# DKS The Real Story??



## Lerg (Apr 15, 2010)

Evening ladies and gents,

DKS is something that has been thrown about a fair bit in recent times (last few years) and it's a syndrome I don't really know all that much about. 

From some of the video's I have looked at it seems almost as if the spider is dehydrated. Is there a source of real research on this subject at all? I have never encountered the syndrome in my animals and was wondering if anyone had and what the outcome was? Also if some proper research is available to list symptoms (a full list not just apparent loss of "motion sensor control") and known cases/causes/remedies.

Any info would be highly appreciated


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

It's a name banded about in the hobby but as far as I'm aware it is based on very little fact and was simply based on some initial observations that seemed related.

Since then, it's banded as the sole cause of any unusual behaviour just about in captive spiders.

Far as I'm concerned, the symptoms are very similar to the behaviour exhibited by spiders when they are dying from either dehydration or from environmental contaminants - e.g. pesticides.

Pesticides work by damaging the neuronal system in many cases, which would explain how, in a low concentration accidental dose, you might see a gradual decline in motor ability in a spider. 

Personally I'd prefer the term become extinct so that we can focus on individual cases and appreciate the differences, rather than blanket term everything as if it is one syndrome.


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

I do think it is dehydration a lot of the time, I've personally had two spiders suffer from "DKS".

First a pokie a few years ago, It had a water bowl on the floor of the enclosure and I soaked its cork bark every few days. First it refused food for a while then clearly dispayed these "DKS" symptoms, basically began to loose co-ordination which got progressively worse until it was just lying on the floor barely moving, it died a few days later.

Second was an avic, again it had a water bowl and I misted the enclosure from time to time. It refused food for a while then I suddenly found it in a death curl at the bottom of its enclosure. I thought it was dead but as I went to clean out the enclosure I noticed it moved a little, just it couldn't uncurl its legs. I tried the "ICU" treatment of getting a livefood tub full of moist kitchen roll, along with a jar lid of water and placed it in the airing cupboard. A day in there and it had completely recovered and has been fine since. 

What I often do now is change my sprayer to the more concentrated beam of water and not a wide mist, then spray the top of their cork bark so it causes a stream of water to go down the tube to where the spider is, I can see them drinking from it when I do this so it's more reassuring.


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## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/spiders-inverts/676990-dyskinetic-syndrome-my-findings-so.html

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/spiders-inverts/676389-dyskinetic-syndrome.html


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## Lerg (Apr 15, 2010)

GRB said:


> It's a name banded about in the hobby but as far as I'm aware it is based on very little fact and was simply based on some initial observations that seemed related.
> 
> Since then, it's banded as the sole cause of any unusual behaviour just about in captive spiders.
> 
> ...


Hi Grant this is why I was asking if there was any proper research on the subject as like you say it does seem to be something that is used as a term to "comb over" the issues and potential further casualties in a persons collection. I thought of dehydration myself, have to be honest didn't even think of pesticides. Is it possible that air-fresheners/deoderants could also do this type of damage to the neuro system? Sorry for the questions but this is a topic that interests me as if possible i'd like to try and find a root cause


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Lerg said:


> Hi Grant this is why I was asking if there was any proper research on the subject as like you say it does seem to be something that is used as a term to "comb over" the issues and potential further casualties in a persons collection. I thought of dehydration myself, have to be honest didn't even think of pesticides. Is it possible that air-fresheners/deoderants could also do this type of damage to the neuro system? Sorry for the questions but this is a topic that interests me as if possible i'd like to try and find a root cause


Possibly, I think in some cases it seemed the culprit was frontline flea treatments.

I have no idea about air freshners etc, you'd basically need to check whats in them then check each ingredient for toxicity to arthropods. Usually they only test toxicity on aquatic daphnia however, but at least it would give some indication.


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## Lerg (Apr 15, 2010)

joeyboy said:


> I do think it is dehydration a lot of the time, I've personally had two spiders suffer from "DKS".
> 
> First a pokie a few years ago, It had a water bowl on the floor of the enclosure and I soaked its cork bark every few days. First it refused food for a while then clearly dispayed these "DKS" symptoms, basically began to loose co-ordination which got progressively worse until it was just lying on the floor barely moving, it died a few days later.
> 
> ...


Thats very sad, atleast you noticed that the problem was dehydration, also brilliant that you saved the avic  this is the type of case I was looking for. 



snowgoose said:


> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/spiders-inverts/676990-dyskinetic-syndrome-my-findings-so.html
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/spiders-inverts/676389-dyskinetic-syndrome.html


Thanks snowgoose again this is the type of stuff I was looking for. Some very good stuff in there, I like your theory and I like the fact you(and others) have looked into possible pesticides that cause the problem. Be interesting to see how much more you dig up, if your still looking into it?? If so i'll bookmark the thread


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## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

Lerg said:


> Thats very sad, atleast you noticed that the problem was dehydration, also brilliant that you saved the avic  this is the type of case I was looking for.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks snowgoose again this is the type of stuff I was looking for. Some very good stuff in there, I like your theory and I like the fact you(and others) have looked into possible pesticides that cause the problem. Be interesting to see how much more you dig up, if your still looking into it?? If so i'll bookmark the thread


I must admit, I haven't done any more hunting on this. I kind of got that far and that was it. It's something that does interest me greatly and would be great to get some proper lad style research done on it, but sadly that wouldn't be for me


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## callum b (Sep 8, 2008)

I've just been reading an article in Reptilia magazine, entitled 'Feeding Terrarium and Live-Food Invertebrates'.

In the section headed Vitamin B, the author talks about hypovitaminotosis B (deficiency of vit B) being one of the possible causes of DKS symptoms in spiders. A lack of this vitamin is known to cause neurological disorders in other animals. He also beleives other nutritional deficiencies may cause DKS symptoms in tarantulas.

I've never read anything about nutritional deficiencies in inverts before so thought it would be of interest to add to this debate.


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## Lerg (Apr 15, 2010)

snowgoose said:


> I must admit, I haven't done any more hunting on this. I kind of got that far and that was it. It's something that does interest me greatly and would be great to get some proper lad style research done on it, but sadly that wouldn't be for me


Maybe this is something that could be proposed to the BTS?? Would be great to see some lab research on this to determine causes and differences in cases, i.e difference different chemicals/aerosols have, how to differentiate between dehydration etc etc like you it's a subject that really interests me but unforunately I don't know enough to be able to do that type of research. Surely we have some biologists/students on here??


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## swampeh (Dec 4, 2011)

GRB said:


> Possibly, I think in some cases it seemed the culprit was frontline flea treatments.
> 
> I have no idea about air freshners etc, you'd basically need to check whats in them then check each ingredient for toxicity to arthropods. Usually they only test toxicity on aquatic daphnia however, but at least it would give some indication.


Thank god we use herbal flea treatments for out dogs, as for air fresheners we dont use them but we use room linen spray and home made sprays using aromatherapy oils and my T's are doing just fine:2thumb: 
You dont need to use chemical based items to get just as good if not better results, it's a win win situation all round : victory:


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## Veyron (Mar 29, 2011)

Ofcourse DKS is real. We've all seen the videos of it, hundreds of times.

We just don't know what causes it.

I think the main problem people have, is when other people think it's some kind of mysterious magical thing that can happen at any time for no reason at all. When infact it is most probably environmental factors that cause 'DKS', but we've all seen it happen.

So call it what you like, there is a certain type of 'DKS' behavior that exists, for whatever reason it is.


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## Lerg (Apr 15, 2010)

callum b said:


> I've just been reading an article in Reptilia magazine, entitled 'Feeding Terrarium and Live-Food Invertebrates'.
> 
> In the section headed Vitamin B, the author talks about hypovitaminotosis B (deficiency of vit B) being one of the possible causes of DKS symptoms in spiders. A lack of this vitamin is known to cause neurological disorders in other animals. He also beleives other nutritional deficiencies may cause DKS symptoms in tarantulas.
> 
> I've never read anything about nutritional deficiencies in inverts before so thought it would be of interest to add to this debate.


Definitely food for thought Callum I don't think I've heard anyone put forward that theory before, I suppose could explain some cases?? Maybe feeder insects need a more balanced diet before being munched on, or maybe there is something in a tarantulas natural diet that we are missing? The puzzle gets bigger rather than any clearer lol but atleast people are thinking


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## Lerg (Apr 15, 2010)

Veyron said:


> Ofcourse DKS is real. We've all seen the videos of it, hundreds of times.
> 
> We just don't know what causes it.
> 
> ...


I wasn't trying to say its not real, my statement was to say a lot of cases seem to be more regarding dehydration than anything else, the reason I was asking about research is so that I could look into genuine cases and see if there is a common root cause or if the are variable factors into why DKS hits tarantulas, and why even then people can have 20+ Ts and only one or two in this number be affected as if it were just down to pesticides surely in the same environment they would all be susceptible to the same dosage of said contaminant. I'm open to theories and oppinions because this is a matter that interests me and I think as enthusiasts who keep tarantulas it could be important for us all : victory:

I can't think of how to reword that and realise it sounds quite obnoxious that's not how it's meant to come across I swear lol


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## Lerg (Apr 15, 2010)

Veyron said:


> Ofcourse DKS is real. We've all seen the videos of it, hundreds of times.
> 
> We just don't know what causes it.
> 
> ...


Like to say I agree completely that many keepers seem to think it is a mystical disease that happens for no reason, that's why I'm looking for research/cases to pass on anything useful that pops up


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## boxofsorrows (Nov 7, 2011)

swampeh said:


> Thank god we use herbal flea treatments for out dogs


What do you use on the pooches out of interest (we've got 2 border collies)?


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## swampeh (Dec 4, 2011)

boxofsorrows said:


> What do you use on the pooches out of interest (we've got 2 border collies)?


This is what we use on our hounds
Its called flea away by a company called cats and dogs ltd they also do a herbal wormer.
FLEA AWAY 100% Safe Natural Dog Cat Flea Tick Treatment UK FAST POSTAGE | eBay

Theres never been any nasties in this house lol so i would definitely recommend :2thumb:


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## boxofsorrows (Nov 7, 2011)

Cheers! Shall have to give it a whirl, bonus that it's far cheaper than frontline etc too.


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## Bab1084 (Dec 9, 2011)

swampeh said:


> This is what we use on our hounds
> Its called flea away by a company called cats and dogs ltd they also do a herbal wormer.
> FLEA AWAY 100% Safe Natural Dog Cat Flea Tick Treatment UK FAST POSTAGE | eBay
> 
> Theres never been any nasties in this house lol so i would definitely recommend :2thumb:


Going to give this a try myself, my dog is allergic to fleas and i am finding the frontline isnt as effective as it used to b, I have switched to another but doesnt seem to be any different to the frontline


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## HerpvetUK (Aug 24, 2009)

Lerg said:


> Maybe this is something that could be proposed to the BTS?? Would be great to see some lab research on this to determine causes and differences in cases, i.e difference different chemicals/aerosols have, how to differentiate between dehydration etc etc like you it's a subject that really interests me but unforunately I don't know enough to be able to do that type of research. Surely we have some biologists/students on here??


Hi,

Speaking as a vet dealing with inverts, including some with neurological signs, I have to say this would be very interesting. I have tried looking at haemolymph from affected spiders (simple microscopy) with inconclusive results. 

However, the problem with doing this type of research is basically that it costs money. Even if the researcher or vet gives their time for free (which some do for inverts, although generally unfortunately will tend to mean it has to be lower priority to some extent), the lab work is almost certain to cost, and probably not insignificant amounts depending on what you were testing for.

Some vets are happy to see inverts, like myself, and could probably arrange tests (for vitamin B1 levels, for example) - but those tests would cost. If they could be run, and tests coordinated so as many people as possible were getting the same ones run, then we could get some useful info and possibly pick out patterns.

But unless there as some philanthropic rich tarantula keepers around...

Bruce.


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## Lerg (Apr 15, 2010)

HerpvetUK said:


> Hi,
> 
> Speaking as a vet dealing with inverts, including some with neurological signs, I have to say this would be very interesting. I have tried looking at haemolymph from affected spiders (simple microscopy) with inconclusive results.
> 
> ...


We'll have to start asking questions of the RFUKers then to see who the secret millionaires are haha


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## Veyron (Mar 29, 2011)

Lerg said:


> We'll have to start asking questions of the RFUKers then to see who the secret millionaires are haha


Judging by their collections...Peteruk and pcharlton :lol2:


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Ive stated my opinion several times before within the forum. I believe it is a symptom that displays itself by erratic and unnatural behaviour. I believe there are numerous factors which include food (specifically locusts), sprays (particularly Frontline) and other influences.
I believe its often quoted as the mystery disease because that's the only disease people know. Unfortunately the backlash of such claims is people try to discredit it completely denouncing any suggestion that it actually exists. A syndrome is merely the observation of recognisable and characteristic features, NOT a disease in itself. 

I'd like to read the article Lautensack, R. & Hübers, R.: Feeding Terrarium and Live-Food Invertebrates, they have also released a paper about the relationship of cholesterol in food to inverts, specifically Phoneurtria sp.) and the ecdysone (moulting hormones). If they refer to the term DKS then surely, as mere hobbyists, we should too?


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## HerpvetUK (Aug 24, 2009)

Poxicator said:


> Ive stated my opinion several times before within the forum. I believe it is a symptom that displays itself by erratic and unnatural behaviour. I believe there are numerous factors which include food (specifically locusts), sprays (particularly Frontline) and other influences.
> I believe its often quoted as the mystery disease because that's the only disease people know. Unfortunately the backlash of such claims is people try to discredit it completely denouncing any suggestion that it actually exists. A syndrome is merely the observation of recognisable and characteristic features, NOT a disease in itself.
> 
> I'd like to read the article Lautensack, R. & Hübers, R.: Feeding Terrarium and Live-Food Invertebrates, they have also released a paper about the relationship of cholesterol in food to inverts, specifically Phoneurtria sp.) and the ecdysone (moulting hormones). If they refer to the term DKS then surely, as mere hobbyists, we should too?


Hi, 

Any more details/full reference on that article - it sounds interesting. Was it in a hobby magazine (quick search on Google scholar couldn't find it) or journal?

I agree about it being a sign/symptom, though it could be argued that it is just general neurological signs, rather than a syndrome as such : ).

Bruce.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

HerpvetUK said:


> Hi,
> 
> Any more details/full reference on that article - it sounds interesting. Was it in a hobby magazine (quick search on Google scholar couldn't find it) or journal?
> 
> ...


The B1 stuff you mentioned sounded interesting. Never thought of looking at deficiencies in diet before, but it would sense with the constained diet some tarantulas are on. 

I'm more a whole organism biologist, nice to see some physiology input - my limit of understanding was thinking it might be something that would affect sodium/calcium channels, hence the pesticide angle.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

there you go:
Zur Biogenese des Ecdysons, I. Umwandlung von Cholesterin in Ecdyson : Hoppe-Seyler´s Zeitschrift für physiologische Chemie


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