# Dicussion from classified thread.



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Hi , 

Just a snippet, but do you not think that 12 weeks old is a tad young for a sale? What has this youngster truly learned from her parents?

Whilst l acknowledge that you wish to see it go into another 'primate residency' , perhaps this might be seen as more unethical than a hybridisation of a milk snake and a corn snake? Being an underage primate?

'Why on earth would you want to hybridise a milk snake & a corn snake??? In my opinion it is unethical!'

Rory Matier


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## simmi85 (Jul 1, 2007)

copied wrong link mate here u go








i have no doubt that the baby doing excellent so i dont see why cannot be sold at 12 weeks many animals on her are sold at 8 weeks. also the home it will be going to will be checked out firstly which is a good thing to know the seller is not just after a quick sale but for the baby to go to a good home which i think is excellent.:Na_Na_Na_Na:

good luck with the sale :no1:


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Even at first glance l can tell that this primate is not ready to be sold on. 

Sorry Simmi, l disagree with you.

Its too young!

Primates should not leave their prents till they are at the minimum of 9 months, and in fact many primate keepers do not even sell the young on until they are past 12 months.

And at this age, l would say with it being born in April, this is a quick sale.

RM


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

simmi85 said:


> i have no doubt that the baby doing excellent so i dont see why cannot be sold at 12 weeks many animals on her are sold at 8 weeks.


Not all animal species are the same Simmi. selling an 8 week old pup is different to selling a kitten, camel, macaw or monkey. Some are ready to leave at 8 weeks and others not. 8 weeks is not an optimum for every species of animal. I know nothing about primates but would be guided by Rory in all aspects if I did want to get some as he is very experienced.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I totally agree with Rory too. This baby looks way to young to be leaving home.Primates stay with the family a lot longer than a lot of other species. As Fenwoman says Rory is most definately more expert than most


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> I totally agree with Rory too. This baby looks way to young to be leaving home.Primates stay with the family a lot longer than a lot of other species. As Fenwoman says Rory is most definately more expert than most


Indeed. I suspect his dad is an orang-utan actually but don't tell him I said so. In a certain light at a certain angle , there is almost a simian look about him and I understand he is very hairy too,so I could be right hehe:lol2:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Rory is an expert on Primates and Fenwoman is an expert on Rory:hmm:
:lol2 More puppy pics please Fenwoman)


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

will take some more at some stage when I have a spare minute lol.
HArdly see Rory when I'm over at theirs as he is doing troglodite impressions in his study.He comes out for the occasional cuppa but goes straight back.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Hi, 

Please don't class me as an expert on primates for l am far from such a title, l am not a primate keeper, l work alongside many excellent primate keepers.

We are advised by primate keepers what they are looking for from potential buyers, and as such over the years you can not but help but begin to know, understand what is acceptable and what is not.

We do not sell primates at this age, unless there are extenuating circumstances that surround the animal. Primate keepers may sell at 9 months of age, but in the last few years l have seen most of our client base look upon selling youngsters once they have acquired carrying experience of their siblings from about 18 months of age.

RM


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Rory compared to most on here you are an expert. What I know about Primates is enough to make me decline ownership of any but not enough to advise anyone of their specialist care. My personal opinion is that they are not suitable as pets.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

there is a cracker of an ad on freeads.co.uk for a 11month old tamarin.. if you don't think they should be kept as pets.. then the images of it eating a lollipop sweet, sitting on two young childrens heads, being fed cheesy puffs and then hanging off the bars of the parrot cage it lives in the lounge in.. might pee you off a little..

the air turned blue here when i showed it to rory...

N

(Other Pets classifieds in manchester : tame 11months old little girl loves company and...)


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## dani11983 (Mar 17, 2007)

No expert but that isn't any life for a primate. Feeding the poor girl high fat, high sugar foods. I imagine that poor animal is ill cared for and will probably die prematurely of similar diseases to overweight/obese humans if that diet is maintained. I hope whoever buys her knows about tamarin husbandry.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

its so above the market price.... adult proven females sell for under a grand for heavens sake..

that not many of the exisiting tam keepers would even entertain the idea of paying 4k for her.. certainly none of the ones we know..

which means she is likely to be an impulse buy by someone who has 4k floating around spare.. or someone who does not "know" much about the current tam market in the uk..

in my experience.. if you keep something, and know about the keeping of it.. you also know what the value of your animals are.. so if someone pays that for her.. my worry is they do not know much about the animal at all..

we have spoken to the seller incidently, although just as a fact finder.. so just another caller as far as he knew. he is cutting down as he has too many animals, and although the add says 4k ono.. he was not budging on the 4k part of it when he spoke to us.. he also told us he had it from less than a month old.. which would have put it as him owning it PRE them being removed from the DWA.. although he did not mention dwas at all.. its harness trained.. it lives in a parrot cage in the lounge.. its a little tearaway..

cringeable really.. the antis spend so much time blathering about things there are not issues with.. and miss out corkers like this one.. daft really..

N


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

can i just ask, how does one become a primate owner if people generally only sell primates to homes with other primates? id love a monkey and would hate for someone not to sell me one purely on the grounds that i dont have one. as my care for the monkey would be second to none. just askin though cos im curious, cos everyones gotta start somewhere? do you get people who will sell to people who have never had a primate before?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

All I see is a sad frightened pathetic baby. I hate seeing primates kept like this.:devil:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> can i just ask, how does one become a primate owner if people generally only sell primates to homes with other primates? id love a monkey and would hate for someone not to sell me one purely on the grounds that i dont have one. as my care for the monkey would be second to none. just askin though cos im curious, cos everyones gotta start somewhere? do you get people who will sell to people who have never had a primate before?


I would argue that your care for a primate would be second to none. I don't think primates should be kept singly as house pets and treated like little furry human babies. To me that is bordering on abuse of the animal.
You may have the best intentions in the world and love tha animal biut if you are keeping it in a manner to cause harm, whether mental or physical, that is just not caring for it properly.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

the simple way to do it, is buy a pair..

and there is no reason we would not sell to someone with no experience.. provided they could show they had the right attitude, housing.. and so on and so forth..

likewise, if client a has a female primate and client b has a male one.. there is no reason, as long as the two are compatible, why someone cannot buy two singles and make up a pair..

everyone has to start somewhere, and there is no reason why people who have not kept, cannot become good keepers by learning.. 

but thats not the issue here...

N


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

I agree, many people think we are against primate keeping - but we are not.

We are for all exotic keeping, but like many others we want to see husbandry improved upon.

Keeping primates in singles in the loungeroom, being fed an inadequate diet, with no interaction with their own species and totally reliant upon human companionship, being kept by 'keepers' who have more money than sense, have under researched if bothered at all, provided with no stimulation other than jumping around unsupervized/supervised between the rooms of the residency, living in an oversized hamster cage under the guise of 'giant parrot cage' is unacceptable!

People displaying an open negligence on the welfare of this species - any species, is not on, and more keepers should not just be standing by an allowing this to happen, for it makes us all guilty of negligence and an irresponsible attitude.

Flaunting the legislation under the Animal Welfare Act, by the advertising of underage primates or those not housed properly in the first place is no more acceptable than the incompetance shown to us by DEFRA in their antiquated legislation protocol!

Allowing the removal of certain species of primate off the DWA licence has only allowed the continued misuse and abuse of primates in the private sector. Plus still there is no immediate movements on the Codes of Practice not just for this species, but for anything in the exotic fields, and the latter is not just DEFRA to blame.

NO, l am not against primates in private hands - but l want like many others to see it addressed properly and in a responsible fashion. Otherwise, the ability to keep this species will be lost, and tbh, with adverts like the £4000 Tamarin, l would not blame them if they decided to seriously push for the prohibition of private primate ownership.

We are all responsible for our charges, we should all be seen to be actively involved in ensuring that our passions, enthusiasms and hobbies for those who refer to it as such are not lost because of inadequate research, learning or understanding.

RM


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> I would argue that your care for a primate would be second to none. I don't think primates should be kept singly as house pets and treated like little furry human babies. To me that is bordering on abuse of the animal.
> You may have the best intentions in the world and love tha animal biut if you are keeping it in a manner to cause harm, whether mental or physical, that is just not caring for it properly.


i wouldnt be keepin it as a house pet to put nappies on and play with it like a baby, i was merely askin a question. Primates perhaps shouldnt be kept singly, but it happens, and some are kept on their own with some good reports i just find it find it interesting how some people will only sell to people with other primates, am interested thats all, i aint gunna buy a monkey just as a play thing, with the amount of animals i have i wouldnt expect people to think id keep them like that either


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*primates*

I have kept and bred many primates also hand reared,if this is a hand reared baby i would say there is no problem getting it to new owners,if parent reared i would be worried it would not survive without parent all of my parent reared babies do not go until they are at least 6mnths old.


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

why o why o why, i swear one day my head will explode, primates are group animals, any programme and any of us who are lucky enough to have travelled will tell you so, so why on earth would you want to keep one on its own, the only answer can be, because you want to, but it cant really be argued that its not in the best interests of the primate, nobody is fussed about someone who has less knowledge as none of us was born with any, but you do have to listen, every good primate keeper i know firmly believes these animals do need other primates, it is not just about whether the monkey will live, but is it happy, are you providing it with the enrichment it needs, part of which is social, and only other monkeys can do this


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> i wouldnt be keepin it as a house pet to put nappies on and play with it like a baby, i was merely askin a question. Primates perhaps shouldnt be kept singly, but it happens, and some are kept on their own with some good reports i just find it find it interesting how some people will only sell to people with other primates, am interested thats all, i aint gunna buy a monkey just as a play thing, with the amount of animals i have i wouldnt expect people to think id keep them like that either


I know that. You posed a hypothetical question and I gave a hypothetical answer :lol2:

I know that people do keep primates single as they keep a single goat or sheep but my argument is that with any animal which is hard wired, mentally and psychologically to be part of a flock or herd or troop must suffer if they are kept in a solitary condition however much affection their human keeper feels for them.I don't think human can ever be a suitable substitute for other members of the same species of whatever animal is kept singly.
Good debate though.


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

Sheesh ... some people should be locked up! That POOR baby!!!!


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

I see that the advert has changed somewhat now since this discussion began.

Baby Common Marmoset for sale,
12 weeks old, female (we think),
Bred at home with plenty of space, good nutrition & fully parent-reared,
To go to a home with another young Common Marmoset as a companion,
I will want to see pictures of where the monkey will be living.
£750

But its still way too young.

R


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

Far too young!! S/he has only JUST weaned at 12 weeks so the ad NOW says 12 weeks WE THINK, so this youngster might not even be fully weaned yet! They're not even classed as juvenile until they're 5 - 6 months old!

Then there's the ethics involved, youngsters help mum with the rearing of 'new' babies, they NEED to be involved in at least 1 birth as the breeding process in primates is learned not instinctive. When they're taken away too early it's quite common that they will have no idea what to do with their own baby (if they're used for breeding) and will either drop it and leave it to die or worst case scenario ... mutilate it, or kill it, even possibly eat it!!!


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

glidergirl said:


> Far too young!! S/he has only JUST weaned at 12 weeks so the ad NOW says 12 weeks WE THINK, so this youngster might not even be fully weaned yet! They're not even classed as juvenile until they're 5 - 6 months old!
> 
> Then there's the ethics involved, youngsters help mum with the rearing of 'new' babies, they NEED to be involved in at least 1 birth as the breeding process in primates is learned not instinctive. When they're taken away too early it's quite common that they will have no idea what to do with their own baby (if they're used for breeding) and will either drop it and leave it to die or worst case scenario ... mutilate it, or kill it, even possibly eat it!!!


But the seller will have his money so it won't matter:whistling2:


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Spot on and well said Marie!!

And yes, that is what this is about, its about money.

On an earlier thread l saw the op refer to his primates 'as love them to bits' and here we are with a scrap of a youngster of 3 months' ready for quick buck territory!

R


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Firstly, I would like to say, I was warned I would be attacked for putting my For Sale ad on this site. How right that was!

I did have a lady who was going to have my baby marmoset but she turned out to be a time waster. So I put an ad on this site the other day, as I guessed there would be fairly sensible people on here who I would be happy to sell this marmoset to, rather than putting an ad up on my local pet shops notice board & getting Joe Bloggs from the Bronx wanting it! I like the fact that you all seem to think I just want to make a quick buck. Maybe I just want holiday spending money!?! 

And to Rory, who went to the trouble of checking my other posts (the milk snake/corn snake hybrid thread) to try to prove his point, get a life!

There are people on here who de-scent skunks, which I feel is unethical & cruel, to remove a skunk's natural defense mechanism!

There are people who hybridise animals, which is unnatural & which I disagree with!

There are people who keep meerkats as singles, which goes against their natural lifestyle!

Anyway, I'm just nipping to Pets At Home to put an ad on their notice board - "Baby Common Marmoset for sale". When my Chimpanzee gives birth, I will put an ad up "New-born baby Chimpanzee for sale, dont care where it goes, just bring £5000 with you!"


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Simon, thank you for speaking sense & seeing the bigger picture! At least there are some reasonable folk on here. Cheers mate!

Also, I should add that the photo added to the ad is not an up to date photo, it was taken about a month ago! So again, dont attack things you dont know the full story about people!!!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> Firstly, I would like to say, I was warned I would be attacked for putting my For Sale ad on this site. How right that was!
> 
> I did have a lady who was going to have my baby marmoset but she turned out to be a time waster. So I put an ad on this site the other day, as I guessed there would be fairly sensible people on here who I would be happy to sell this marmoset to, rather than putting an ad up on my local pet shops notice board & getting Joe Bloggs from the Bronx wanting it! I like the fact that you all seem to think I just want to make a quick buck. Maybe I just want holiday spending money!?!
> 
> ...


so do you think that 12 weeks is acceptable?


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

> And to Rory, who went to the trouble of checking my other posts (the milk snake/corn snake hybrid thread) to try to prove his point, get a life!


actually, that was me.. standard background check on people "view post history" takes seconds for those with brain, and you find out all sorts that way..

and nothing you have said, detracts from the sad fact that she is being sold too young... 

moan all you like about what we are saying, but it does not change the fact you are willing and ready to sell a 3 month old parent reared primate..

N

by the way, is your name peter?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I do not see a problem with me selling a 12 week old marmoset. If a potential buyer wanted to breed from my baby, I would direct them to an older experienced marmoset. As a pet marmoset to get a companion for, I see no problem. This marmoset is weaned, as I would not be selling it if otherwise. I have many animals & keep them all very well. Anyone who knows about animals & has seen how I keep my animals has commented on how well they all are.

And no, my name is not Peter!


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

The full story at this present time Zoo Man is as clear as crystal. You have a 3 Month old possibly female marmoset that is parent reared and is ready for the sale.

It does not matter what you throw up in the way of an excuse, she is underage for the sale.

If you had researched properly and l mean and emphasize properly you would know damn well that she is too young for the sale. But you preach that you think this is considered adequate, and that you keep your animals well, well l am not going to pass judgement on your other animals for l know nothing of them.

All l have to go on is what you have presented here, in this thread and your recently bumped sales advertisement.

You know on your side, there are these factors:

*It is not against the law to own nor sell a single primate.*

*It is not against the law to sell a primate at the age you are advertising.*

*It is not against the law to keep a primate in inadequate living quarters.*

*It is not against the law to keep a primate in the home residency.*

These things are not against the law.

Ethics do come into it, and l could say that, with as an example the skunks issue you may have a valid point in many peoples opinions.

I am simply saying at this present time, you have the law on your side.

But let us move a stage further forwards, let us say that we had a working code of practice in action, would you then comply?

No

Looking at the photograph displayed a month out of date albeit. Would your enclosure pass AWA standards under a primate code? the photo has been taken pressed close to the bars, its inside the house that is apparent, because l can see the wall on the other side some four maybe five feet away. I am guessing it must be the indoor part to the enclosure and that the external part is where the light is, hopefully outside, and that l say that working on the premise that there is an outdoor part to the enclosure and the whole thing is not just on the inside of a very light conservatory.

But would you pass?

You might, or as the whole thing is looking you probably would not.

Now under AWA COP for primates would the fact that you are looking to sell this primate at 12 weeks of age, would this pass?

No, it would not, for l feel they would get you on three points:

This one: *'**The Need to Express Normal Behaviour Patterns'* with this as a consideration:

*Psychological Wellbeing*

Then probably this one: '*The Need to be kept with or Apart from other Animals'* with these considerations:

*The removal of a primate from its family or social group can have severe psychological, emotional and physical welfare implications for the individual and for the remaining members of its group/troop. This is very much the case for a mother and her young.*

*Primates have long infant and juvenile phases in relation to their total life history. Social independence or weaning occurs long after nutritional weaning. Therefore individuals should not be removed from their parents/social group until such a time that is appropriate to the individual species and with reference to the species natural behaviour in the wild. An individual should have the opportunity to learn normal behaviour within its own social group.*


And then probably this one: 
 
*'The need to be protected from pain, suffering. Injury and disease'* again falling under *pyschological wellbeing*.
 

Whether you like it or not Zoo Man, not just apparent to me , but other readers here, this primate is under age, you display no research to this factor nor comprehension, and it is primate keepers like you with this type of action that damn primate keepers that do do it right.

Fine, l can see that your animal enclosure is clean, and spacious as legislation allows it to be now, but no, the ethics of what you advertise are just a constant supply of ammunition for the opposition who wish to see an end to primates in private hands.

Rory Matier


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I completely agree with Rory here, ethics would tell me its wrong to take an animal so dependent on its parents away so young and sell it, nothing is going to convince me otherwise, I know little about primates, but I know how delicate they are mentally, there are alot of people that would like to see primate keeping banned and selling a just weaned primate is going to do nothing to promote responsible primate keeping. The TSKA have excellent vetting procedures and rightly so.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Firstly, I would like to say, I was warned I would be attacked for putting my For Sale ad on this site. How right that was!
> 
> I did have a lady who was going to have my baby marmoset but she turned out to be a time waster. So I put an ad on this site the other day, as I guessed there would be fairly sensible people on here who I would be happy to sell this marmoset to, rather than putting an ad up on my local pet shops notice board & getting Joe Bloggs from the Bronx wanting it! I like the fact that you all seem to think I just want to make a quick buck. Maybe I just want holiday spending money!?!
> 
> ...


 Do you know, that sounds like "wah wah wah, you are all nasty people so I'm going to sell my animal to a bad home. There, that'll teach you".
You weren't slated for offering something for sale, but for offering for sale an animal which is too young to leave the parents. Grow up!:bash:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I am selling a single primate because the mother only gave birth to one baby. This part was out of my hands I'm afraid! As I stated in my For Sale ad, I would like it to go to a home where there is marmoset company for it. If I sell this baby at 12 months of age, the fact remains that it would still be sold as a single animal.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> I am selling a single primate because the mother only gave birth to one baby. This part was out of my hands I'm afraid! As I stated in my For Sale ad, I would like it to go to a home where there is marmoset company for it. If I sell this baby at 12 months of age, the fact remains that it would still be sold as a single animal.


So why do you have to sell it now at so young an age? Why not keep it until it is older? I'm genuinely interested to know.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

You know, l knew that your answer would be pitiful!

I was thinking about this, if you are not selling for money, which you say you are not. And the youngster does not need to be sold because it is too young, then why are you actually selling?

Know what l think, looking at the photograph alone?

That you would not have the space for a third primate inside that enclosure of yours, it would be too small, so you are selling to ensure that there is adequate space in your eyes for the pair alone.

There is no earthly reason for you to sell - SO - it can only be space restrictions?

You just completely miss the point don't you?

Oh dear, so if you sell at 12 months you still sell a single! It is not about it being a single, for you have already stated you wanted it to go to a primate residency. It is about her BEING TOO YOUNG!!

You don't even read the posts properly.

RM


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Fenwoman, how can you tell me to grow up when it is you & others on here that are jumping on someone & saying "they are just after a quick buck!". 

I would not sell my baby marmoset to a bad home just to teach you a lesson! I merely said that to add a bit of sarcasm. I would never sell my baby marmoset without first vetting the owner & home.

I should add that I have seen marmosets sold at 12 weeks & younger (from a place I used to work at) & I have seen these marmosets months later & they were happy healthy little monkeys, who had settled well into life with companions of their own kind, a couple who were single pets & who had a bond with their owners, & ones that were part of a group of other marmies. These marmosets were fine.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Oh cool, so l see that you learned a lot from the place you used to work then eh?

'I should add that I have seen marmosets sold at 12 weeks & younger (from a place I used to work at)'

It was okay for them, therefore good enough for you and your marmoset.

Oh well , thats okay then isn't it?

That is sarcasm also.


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## snakelover (Dec 17, 2006)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Even at first glance l can tell that this primate is not ready to be sold on.
> 
> Sorry Simmi, l disagree with you.
> 
> ...


I agree. I agree that primates and other exotic mammals should be sold alot older than 12 weeks, around 6-12months. Puppys are nothing alike primates, once weened they can be trained by human, as they will learn from us, but a primate is not ment to be domesticated imo, and trained by humans, but tought the vital things it needs to live and be happy by its mother. I do not have a primate so my information is not factually but my opinion. Were as Rory knows what he is talking about, from what i have seen he has experienced many exotic mammals (from your site TSKA) and i would never doubt anything he said about exotic mammals, that he has experienced


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Rory, I was saying that from what I had seen (from the place I used to work at), showed me that marmosets sold at this age grow up happy, confident, composed monkeys.

Dog breeders sell their puppies at 8 weeks old. In the wild, do wolf cubs leave their packs at 8 weeks old? No, they will stay with their pack until they are either thrown out or leave of their own accord to join a new pack. So then, why should another social animal like a marmoset, have to stay with it's parents until it is a year old? To me, it is like double standards. You will come back saying "a dog is a domestic animal, a marmoset isn't". But both species are in captivity, & therefore are not leading a natural life. If all animals must lead as natural life as possible, then dog owners would need to own a pack of dogs, would they not?


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

This gets better and better by the post!

_*Did you actually sit down and read anything to do with primates at all before actually getting them?*_

You keep back tracking away from things.

Did you ever read the Animal welfare Act?

I am not talking about dogs, l am talking about you selling a primate that is underage, and the best you can do is throw another tangent into the issue?

Your primate needs to stay with her mother till she has learned sufficient knowledge from her about being a Marmoset.

If you are not selling for money, then why are you selling and stop with the rubbish about it still being a single when its twelve months.

Zoo Man, you just feed the fire, but hey don't worry as l said it is not breaking the law! You do what you want, put another primate into the line of the opposition , who will view this thread with interest and see that primate keepers in the UK must all be the same as you , and sell primates too young with a host of other problems.

So in so doing you damage the passions that experienced responsible keepers have with their primates.

RM


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## leo19 (Mar 16, 2008)

Rory you say dont class me as a primate expert but you seem to think you no what your talking about so why dont you :notworthy:! dont judge on what you dont no! I have seen these marmosets, they are kept in the biggest enclosure of marmoset monkeys i have seen outside a zoo their conditions are clean, and i can asure you zoo man would not sell his baby marmoset unless he was 100% sure it was ready, and it was going to a good home! also i find people who keep meerkats on there own in cages is much worse, meekats have territories, dominant male and females and they go out foraging in large groups you would need a group of atleast 12 meerkats to keep them happy, marmosets in comparison are fine to be kept in large cages in smaller groups


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Oh another poster completing missing the point.

Another back tracking attempt.

Read the thread.

I am basing my judgements on what l know, about primates.

You continually, all of the defence here, go on about how good this is, how good that is.

My judgement is reserved for here in this thread and the issue of the female marmoset being too young to be sold, simple as.

If Zoo Man, knows primates as his defence would have us believe, then he knows damn well, that the actual issue of age is being ignored, and that the marmoset is not benefitting from being a primate, but is being heralded into another ownership, before learning how to be a primate.

And the knock on effect of this, a possible, is that some where along the line she WILL be used for breeding and will not have a fricking clue what is expected of her.... and why? Because of the attempt to sell her at too young an age.

I am sick and tired of keepers who want primates, but do not even take the first steps to understanding the species in which they take on board, a classic issue being discussed here.

And Leo19, instead of supporting the issue of an underage primate being sold, instead of badgering, why do you not do a little reading yourself instead of taking it as gospel that Zoo Man is totally correct in his assumptions that this primate is ready to go?

RM


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## leo19 (Mar 16, 2008)

its funny i took up your suggestion of reading up on marmosets and ive just read that marmoset monkeys are independant of their parents care at 12 weeks of age, the age zooman is selling his monkey


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

Care for the Link Leo19


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## leo19 (Mar 16, 2008)

Common Marmoset - Growth enjoy


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

BTW, if this huge enclosure is so great and again l say money is not the issue, then why pray tell, does Zoo Man, not keep the female with his own pairs female, and allow the youngster to stay with the mother and learn how to carry siblings?

As Zoo Man loves his primates to bits, it would make better sense to not sell at all, so why the sale, when there is such a large enclosure for a small group to live in?


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

leo19 said:


> Common Marmoset - Growth enjoy


 
Oh lol, l should have guessed you are being influenced by an American website on primate care!

Well then read the full site and try do try to find something a bit more in depth on your next attempt.


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

Hmmmm...Leo at 12 weeks they are Dependant over parental care, but at 20 they come off the adults back, thats 8 weeks of learning missed if sold at 12 weeks,


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## leo19 (Mar 16, 2008)

primate care is primate care it dosent matter what side of the pond your on


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## Greenphase (Feb 9, 2008)

I noticed on that care sheet that at 12 weeks they are independant but do not stop suckling untill they are 14 weeks old.Surely if an animal is still suckling from its mother for a further 2 weeks it can not be independant from the parents.

I know nothing about primates but this seems a little worrying seeing qoutes like this.If an animal is still suckling from a parent then in my humble opinion it needs the security of that parent.

I personally feel that it would be wrong to sell a primate at 12 weeks of age.

Lets be honest primates are the closest animal to humans but you would not want your kids to go off without learning lifes lessons from yourself would you?


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Good grief, the lot of you [Zoo Man Defence] are just a laugh a second!!

You make a mockery out of genuine responsible primate care.

There are keepers in the United Kingdom that could tear you down in seconds, and show you for the fools you allow yourselves to be displayed as here in this forum.

Yet, your best defence is to ignore the actual issue, throw in tangents, use an American website for your best stab at intel and then come back with inane comments.

Joy, l thought Sunday was set to be dull.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I am tiring of this!

Rory, there is room for a few marmosets in my enclosure easily. I am selling the baby because it is my decision to sell it at this time. I am an animal lover, a vegetarian, a private animal keeper, a knowledgable keeper at that. Parrots & tortoises are my main passions. I offer parrot owners a behaviourist service. I take in wildlife that is orphaned or injured. I campaign against things I believe are wrong. I help animal organisations......

I have no need to justify myself to you or anyone on here. In my mind, there is nothing wrong in my actions. If I thought the marmoset was not ready, I would not be selling it! I am sorry people on here disagree with me on this, but that is life.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Not a problem, you are just a hypocrit, l can live with that - that is all you had to say, and this would never have reached 6 pages.

PS, you are tiring of this because you Zoo Man, have lost this battle, you can pretend what you want and try to convince the readership of all sorts of things, but you lost this discussion the moment you placed a 12 week old primate up for sale for no apparent reason, so you into animal care, have just verified that you, know nothing of the primates you keep.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I am basing my judgements on my observations, which none of you have had of my marmosets. 

If I was having difficulties or needed help with my marmosets, attitudes & reactions like the ones being spouted on here would certainly have put me off posting for help. How would that help animal welfare? You should think about this & see the bigger picture.

I guess we are never going to agree on this, so should agree to disagree.


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

I don't care if your a animal lover we care about people wanting to keep primates, lots of people want to stop people keeping these...... and you selling them at a young age is adding fuel to the fire,


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

It would never have reached 6 pages if you & others had not been on the attack!

I am a hypocrit? 

BYE!!!!


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

Noooo Rory ain't a profanity, hes a very nice man... 

And please dont use language on a public forum like that, it will lead to infractions and maybe a ban,


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

LOL, 

Aren't you the clever one, you have to resort to sexual inuendos.

Tut tut


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## leo19 (Mar 16, 2008)

HE is just a hypocrit! sorry mr anti-america but all you seem to be is a wannabe primate keeper why not leave someone who has experiance in keeping primates to do what he knows is best you think your an expert but you dont keep primates!


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

You are right l dont keep primates, if l was to do so, l would research them fully. 

Then l would know l was playing silly buggers to let go of an underage primate.

I don't need to keep primates - l have no wish to keep primates - all l want is for primate keepers both novice and experienced to realise that actions like these can destroy the chances they have of keeping them in the first place.

But then there are some, that obviously don't learn and never will.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Innuendos are sexual suggestions, not actual adjectives!

Also, primates are not a species, they are _species _of primate (your primate-keeping petition).

So there, monkey-boy!
:lol2:


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

leo19 said:


> HE is just a hypocrit! sorry mr anti-america but all you seem to be is a wannabe primate keeper why not leave someone who has experiance in keeping primates to do what he knows is best you think your an expert but you dont keep primates!



Guess what, You know nothing:flrt::lol2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Also, does the person who placed the ad selling the tamarin know you are using their photographs on here? That would be rather naughty of you if they didn't.


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## leo19 (Mar 16, 2008)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> Guess what, You know nothing:flrt::lol2:


im not saying i do no atlot unlike some people i see (rory) but i looked for 5 minutes and found a website that disproved what he was saying an he ignored it because it was american! :whistling2:


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

leo19 said:


> ! I have seen these marmosets, they are kept in the biggest enclosure of marmoset monkeys i have seen outside a zoo their conditions are clean,





















this enclosure seems to be inside the house?..if the baby monkey in one photo is at the left end..then the male is eating at the right end
..so the two ends are in the same room..with a window behind them..I see no outside cage, in your PB..


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## Greenphase (Feb 9, 2008)

I think you will find he ignored it because it has so little information on it that it really wasnt wirth posting the link in the first place.


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## leo19 (Mar 16, 2008)

Boas n Burms said:


> I think you will find he ignored it because it has so little information on it that it really wasnt wirth posting the link in the first place.


it mite not have had much infomation but it had the infomation that was needed


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## Greenphase (Feb 9, 2008)

It also has information that is contradicting itself if you had bothered to read it instead of glancing at it and then posting the link as i said earlier


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

Unfortunately people who want to do something, will find any excuse to do it.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Again, you are only seeing what you want to see! There is much more to that enclosure than what is in 2 photos!


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

Dad place this in your sig please.
[_*-*_img]http://i31.tinypic.com/140i3gi.gif[/img]

remove the - tho, call me if you need help


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

You have a camera, take some more photos,


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## leo19 (Mar 16, 2008)

it dosent contradict itself it tells you when the monkey becomes independant, the fact that at a later date it states that it stops suckling and riding on its parents back is irrelovent the parents will be trying to stop it from around that date


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

some people just dont listen


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## Greenphase (Feb 9, 2008)

leo19 said:


> it dosent contradict itself it tells you when the monkey becomes independant, the fact that at a later date it states that it stops suckling and riding on its parents back is irrelovent the parents will be trying to stop it from around that date


See this is where the contradiction comes in as they say that at 12 weeks old the young are independant but they are not fully independant if they are still trying to feed and seek a parents protection untill they are older.Just because the parents are trying to wean the young away from doing these things does not mean it is independant on its own.

Any animal that continues to feed from a parent and continues to ride on the back of the parent is still seeking security and is still to young to be removed from the parents care IMHO


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

Have you got any 'Monkey Butlers' I've always fancied one of those.....


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

Boas n Burms said:


> See this is where the contradiction comes in as they say that at 12 weeks old the young are independant but they are not fully independant if they are still trying to feed and seek a parents protection untill they are older.Just because the parents are trying to wean the young away from doing these things does not mean it is independant on its own.
> 
> Any animal that continues to feed from a parent and continues to ride on the back of the parent is still seeking security and is still to young to be removed from the parents care IMHO


Well said :2thumb:


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## mEOw (Dec 28, 2006)

i agree, far too young.. 
and about £200 more than the going rate for a common aswell :/


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

The fact is simple.

Be you a primate keeper or a non primate keeper, way too many people can see that the age is the issue here.

The primate is up for sale at too young an age.

You can find what intel you want and adapt it to read in your favour if you like, but the responsible keeper of primates would not sell the primate at this age.

That is the point, has been the point and will always be the point.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

its going in circles no point in carrying on IMO


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

I agree with you SIUK.

I have said my piece - 'to death' as some would say.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

The thing is I've seen primates kept absolutely brilliantly.....But unless your going to throw a gazzilion bucks at the project, your being cruel.....Thats why I think most people should not keep them....


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)




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## Greenphase (Feb 9, 2008)

Rory say something 'to death' never in a thousand years.

Its just a shame that in some cases it takes this much to try to get a straight forward opinion across.

I would never put you in down as a person to give wrongful information out Rory.You have spent way too much time with so many people in the know not to be right on these issues and for that i and many others thank you and Nerys for your efforts not only towards primates but also to all exotics.

Keep up the good work mate.You have my backing all the way.


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

let's try to keep the thread clean eh, theres no need for name calling.let's keep it civil or i can see the thread getting locked.

at the end of the day leo and zoo man..try to think of it like this.

a human toddler will be on solid food by this point..yes? they're 'weaned' as such...but they're not independant, as they still need to learn behaviours and skills etc off their parents. You couldn't just throw a two year old child out in to the world on the justification that well they're weaned they can fend for themselves.

It's the same with a 12 week old common marmo...YES they're weaned...although they still try to get milk from their mother..but at that young an age they've not had time to learn behaviours from their parents...in the wild they would stay within the family group, see the mother raise the next lot of young and learn from example.

This female will not see that, she will be sold on, to possibly have babies later on in life, to then most probably reject them as she doesn't have the first clue of what is expected of her.


Yes it may be a daft analogy but this is in effect the equivalent of selling a 12 week old marmo, put in simple terms.

If you had read the thread they're not slating you for just wanting money...they're saying that she's to young. Had you held onto her for a few more months then tried to sell her, there wouldn't have been the uproar that there is now.. and that is the point. This baby is still impressionable, and should still be allowed to learn from her mother imho.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

You are right, Snake snr.

To keep them properly it is an expensive past time, with the enclosure, the diet, the enrichment, in many cases the purchase of the primates to begin with, if they are licenced this adds also to the overall cost factor.

It is not a passion for everyone, there are fewer primate keepers in the UK than there are reptile keepers and overall mammal keepers.

It is a not a species that holds any keeper passion for me, l know Nerys would like to own, but not me.

The problem l have of late, is that l am starting to see way too many problems with ownership, these problems have escalated since certain species were removed from the DWA.

Too many people are not catering to the primates needs correctly, there is way too little research undertaken, it just seems to be another fad many are going through where it is cool to have primates.

No this is not aimed at the issue in this thread, it is a general comment.

But this species has become highly sensitive and political with the opposition, and they are not just the antis, but all those who generally just oppose the keeping of primates in private hands.


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## irwin (Jan 22, 2008)

well this is the only subject that can go on for 9 pages

there are to many people on these forums that havent a clue about keeping primates but still want to put there pennies worth in

and there are the other people who say lets ban primate keeping well to them people i would like to say f... o.. and mind your own business

why dont we ban reptile keeping are keeping them in a plastic boxes really supporting there needs

i have kept primates for over 8 years and some people really annoy me that private keepers should not keep them cant look after them 
properly,dont know what there needs r ,i know exactly what my primates need and what to give them and can diffently cater for there needs

if a baby primate has been parent reared then that baby should stay with the parents for a minimum of 8 months TO LEARN THE WAYS IN LIFE

the only way u can sell a baby at this sort of age is if the parents have rejected them and u have had to hand raise them and u have tried everything to get them back with there parents but this will take longer than 12 weeks

there are many web sites that say one thing and then another, will say another thing so u have to search loads of different webs and take the main percentage that say the same thing

if u go buy just one or two websites then you havent researched the species probably 

i can fully understand why people dont bother to post on these forums


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

we're not saying ban primate keeping irwin, quite the contrary. I'm all for primate keeping providing the animals and their needs are researched fully first.This doesn't seem the case if they're selling a parent reared baby at 12 weeks, does it? 

There are alot of anti's around, and the best thing to stop them is to show a united front and that the primates well being & care is top priority...but a situation like this just gives them ammunition and they will tar all primate keepers with the same brush.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Irwin knows that Katie, he is just venting his anger.

As a primate keeper, and also the creator of the primate petition, he knows only too well the pressures primates are up against as well as their keepers.

RM


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## chris_walton (Dec 20, 2007)

im not jumping on the bandwagon here or trying to cause any body upset

but did anyone here actually pm the person (zoo man) and try to get any details before starting a thread like this where people just personally attack someone online.
i for one dont like posting in this section for the fear of being jumped on 

no body here knows anything about me or what experience i have but if i was to sell one of my animals at 12 weeks old would the same type of thing happen to me because at the end of the day its me the seller who makes the choice whether to sell my pet or not

dont get me wrong im not saying i disagree with everything being said here but to get more people onside couldnt you have gone about it in a better manner for instance could you not of pm'd the seller and maybe offer a piece of advice and ask if he didnt mind if you started a thread about him or maybe a poll on do you think primates should be sold at 12wks 

right rant over

im just tiring of the evil internet world of animals no wonder all the best exotic keepers are never internet wizards


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## JPReptiles (Dec 2, 2007)

This is why it is so hard for new people trying to get in to primate keeping, *because we see people not doing enough research before buying them* and then selling them before they are ready to be sold. 

Im not saying that Zoo-man is not keeping his primate properly because i don't know him and i have no idea what his enclosure is like, but anybody who has done there research can see that this primate is *to young* to be sold.

I am not a primate keeper,but i would like to be in the future. So i have been reading and gathering as much information as i can on the species i would like to keep.

*There is no limit to what we can find out on primates,we can read untill we are blue in the face but we will not know enough about them untill we actually keep them.*

As far as i can see Rory is involved with exotic mammals and primate keepers, this is why i have asked for his help with regards to keeping primates.

John


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## carlo69 (Apr 12, 2007)

*primates*

If everyone thinks that primates should not be kept as pets why do people sell them on here?


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

> If everyone thinks that primates should not be kept as pets why do people sell them on here?


becasue they are not sold to be "pets" in the same way as a cat or a dog is a pet.

primates are not suitable to be kept in a house, walked on a lead, and dressed in little outfits. they are not a "pet"

just because they should not be kept as "pets" does not stop them from being able to be kept well by private keepers in the right environment and with the right ideas

N


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## Buriram (Jul 17, 2006)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Hi ,
> 
> Just a snippet, but do you not think that 12 weeks old is a tad young for a sale? What has this youngster truly learned from her parents?
> 
> ...


Well spotted Rory. Let's hope future legislation can wean this type of keeper out of the primatological picture altogether.


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## Buriram (Jul 17, 2006)

simmi85 said:


> copied wrong link mate here u go
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do Callitrichines ever become 'independant'? Weaning does not mean independancy - it simply means the cessation of lactation - there are many more lessons to be learnt after weaning as regards food choice. Callitrichines do not disperse from their natal groups until they have spent at least two years in the group. This is cruelty in a blatant and ignorant form.


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## Buriram (Jul 17, 2006)

Zoo-Man said:


> Firstly, I would like to say, I was warned I would be attacked for putting my For Sale ad on this site. How right that was!
> 
> I did have a lady who was going to have my baby marmoset but she turned out to be a time waster. So I put an ad on this site the other day, as I guessed there would be fairly sensible people on here who I would be happy to sell this marmoset to, rather than putting an ad up on my local pet shops notice board & getting Joe Bloggs from the Bronx wanting it! I like the fact that you all seem to think I just want to make a quick buck. Maybe I just want holiday spending money!?!
> 
> ...


There is simply one correct solution to this situation. The young marmoset should stay in its natal group until such time as it would possible disperse - which lets be honest may never actually happen in the wild.


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## Buriram (Jul 17, 2006)

Zoo-Man said:


> Rory, I was saying that from what I had seen (from the place I used to work at), showed me that marmosets sold at this age grow up happy, confident, composed monkeys.
> 
> Dog breeders sell their puppies at 8 weeks old. In the wild, do wolf cubs leave their packs at 8 weeks old? No, they will stay with their pack until they are either thrown out or leave of their own accord to join a new pack. So then, why should another social animal like a marmoset, have to stay with it's parents until it is a year old? To me, it is like double standards. You will come back saying "a dog is a domestic animal, a marmoset isn't". But both species are in captivity, & therefore are not leading a natural life. If all animals must lead as natural life as possible, then dog owners would need to own a pack of dogs, would they not?


You must be quite established in the Primatological field then because quite simply despite years of research on the endocrinology / hormonal states of primates both in captivity and in habitat, I have never been able to truly prove what a 'happy' monkey is.


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## Buriram (Jul 17, 2006)

Zoo-Man said:


> I am tiring of this!
> 
> Rory, there is room for a few marmosets in my enclosure easily. I am selling the baby because it is my decision to sell it at this time. I am an animal lover, a vegetarian, a private animal keeper, a knowledgable keeper at that. Parrots & tortoises are my main passions. I offer parrot owners a behaviourist service. I take in wildlife that is orphaned or injured. I campaign against things I believe are wrong. I help animal organisations......
> 
> I have no need to justify myself to you or anyone on here. In my mind, there is nothing wrong in my actions. If I thought the marmoset was not ready, I would not be selling it! I am sorry people on here disagree with me on this, but that is life.


Sorry but there are indeed people on here that you may have to justify yourself to in the future. It does not matter that in your mind there is nothing wrong with your actions, the fact is that there is much wrong with your actions, your motivations and the legality of what you are doing.


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## Buriram (Jul 17, 2006)

Greenphase said:


> Rory say something 'to death' never in a thousand years.
> 
> Its just a shame that in some cases it takes this much to try to get a straight forward opinion across.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with your view of Rory.


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## Buriram (Jul 17, 2006)

Reptile world said:


> This is why it is so hard for new people trying to get in to primate keeping, *because we see people not doing enough research before buying them* and then selling them before they are ready to be sold.
> 
> Im not saying that Zoo-man is not keeping his primate properly because i don't know him and i have no idea what his enclosure is like, but anybody who has done there research can see that this primate is *to young* to be sold.
> 
> ...


The responsible way to start...


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## scotshop (Apr 20, 2007)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> We are advised by primate keepers what they are looking for from potential buyers, and as such over the years you can not but help but begin to know, understand what is acceptable and what is not.
> ...


 
as a previous breeder of marmosets i would have to agree with Rory.

I personally would never sell a primate under 9 months and would usually prefer them to be older 12-18 months, dpending on the situation.

12 weeks is far too young as far as i'm concerned.


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