# People with venomous Snakes



## Peter wood (Jul 1, 2008)

Do u have to keep anti -venom at home and have u ever been tagged by them also n e pics of snakes and bites?


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## __sam69__ (Mar 4, 2008)

Peter wood said:


> Do u have to keep anti -venom at home and have u ever been tagged by them also n e pics of snakes and bites?


i doubt many people who keep DWA animals would share pics and stories of bites from there hots


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## Peter wood (Jul 1, 2008)

i thought tht but its worth a try lol they dont have to but if they will then its a bonus:2thumb:


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## Metal_face (Oct 2, 2008)

i very much doubt it as anti venom is stupidly expensive! i think its around £10k plus per shot.......and normally more than 1 shot is needed. also it has a shelf life of normally a few months..........so very much doubt it is finacially viable.........although i could be wrong.


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## Peter wood (Jul 1, 2008)

Metal_face said:


> i very much doubt it as anti venom is stupidly expensive! i think its around £10k plus per shot.......and normally more than 1 shot is needed. also it has a shelf life of normally a few months..........so very much doubt it is finacially viable.........although i could be wrong.


jesus so wot if they get tagged wot the hell happens then :s


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Metal_face said:


> i very much doubt it as anti venom is stupidly expensive! i think its around £10k plus per shot.......and normally more than 1 shot is needed. also it has a shelf life of normally a few months..........so very much doubt it is finacially viable.........although i could be wrong.


 
bit off the mark, CroFab is $1937.50 for two vials. treatment usually specifies five vials, but severe envenomation can require upwards of fifteen!!!
It has a longer shelf life than a few months


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## stucoady (May 23, 2008)

If you get tagged then you go strait to hosptial where the anti venum would be sent straight to the hospital. From what I have read on this forum is that there are only two places (hopitals I belive) in the UK that stocks the many different types of anti venum.


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## VoodooWitchDoctor (Sep 3, 2008)

So we all pay if you get bitten!

I think that if you keep poisonous snakes, you should by law keep that species ani-venom just in case, regardless of the costs.

This is a serious reply to this thread man!


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

stucoady said:


> If you get tagged then you go strait to hosptial where the anti venum would be sent straight to the hospital. From what I have read on this forum is that there are only two places (hopitals I belive) in the UK that stocks the many different types of anti venum.


Liverpool School of Tropical medicine
Guy's Hospital London
Birmingham Hospital


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

VoodooWitchDoctor said:


> So we all pay if you get bitten!
> 
> I think that if you keep poisonous snakes, you should by law keep that species ani-venom just in case, regardless of the costs.
> 
> This is a serious reply to this thread man!


Ok, serious answer, if you drive a car, over the speed limit or in such a way as to cause your own accident, you pay for your treatment, similarly if you have an accident trhough your own ineptitude/stupidity, you pay too. The only people who get free treatment are those that develop illnesses, as virtually all accidents are/could be prevented by precautionary measures, therefore you accept responsibility for your condition
Would you agree to that?


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## VoodooWitchDoctor (Sep 3, 2008)

What about insurance geeza?

Surely if you have to pay for insurance for a car, you should pay a premium for dangerous exotic pets don't you think. aka private health insurance.

Not a dig but a reply staight from the heart bruv.


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## stucoady (May 23, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Liverpool School of Tropical medicine
> Guy's Hospital London
> Birmingham Hospital


I stand corrected lol There are 3 places.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

VoodooWitchDoctor said:


> What about insurance geeza?
> 
> Surely if you have to pay for insurance for a car, you should pay a premium for dangerous exotic pets don't you think. aka private health insurance.
> 
> Not a dig but a reply staight from the heart bruv.


Do you have private health insurance to cover the cost of medical treatment if you're involved in a car accident?

DWA owners are required by law to have third party Public liability insurance, in the same way as car drivers are required to have a minimum of 3rd party insurance.

life cover is extortionate too. So DWA owners *do* pay for the privilege of owning these animals.

I would hazard a guess that far more of the NHS' money is spent treating sponging deadbeats to free prescriptions, free detox's for thieving skag heads and patching up idiots who drive too fast, get into scraps and deserve reverse Darwin awards for their DIY skills than is ever spent on treating envenomation victims. And, anyway, I pay NI contributions, have done for the last 28 years and only ever been in hospital once in that time. As far as I'm concerned, I have "money in the bank" that covers *any* and *all* treatment I may need.


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## VoodooWitchDoctor (Sep 3, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Do you have private health insurance to cover the cost of medical treatment if you're involved in a car accident?
> 
> DWA owners are required by law to have third party Public liability insurance, in the same way as car drivers are required to have a minimum of 3rd party insurance.
> 
> ...


I'm fully comp mate.

I excepts no less for the above reasons.

If you do something that is not essential, but is dangerous, you should pay.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

You may well be fully comp' but, as I said before, does that include medical cover to pay for any treatment you may need as a result of a car accident? Car driving is dangerous, more so than keeping DWA reptiles. It's not essential, so by your own maxim , you should pay for any treatment you require. Taking your argument to it's logical conclusion, all hobbies that can incur injury should require separate cover then?


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## VoodooWitchDoctor (Sep 3, 2008)

Compairing driving with keeping venomous snakes is just STUPID.

What planet are you living on pal?

If you keep these dangerous creatures and your view is as replied in your threads, then you deserve to get bitten during a power cut to teach you a valuable lesson of reality my friend.

And you are not a sir by any means.......WAKE UP!


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Actually, lets compare car driving to keeping hots................in the last 100 years, no-one has died from the bite of a non-indigenous venomous reptile. How many people have died in car accidents? When dealing with venomous reptiles, you only have your own skills and the behaviour of the animals to think about. On the road, you have countless permutations of bad weather, bad roads and other drivers' ineptitude and stupidity to factor in. I know what I would class as more risky. If you like, lets compare keeping hots to dogs, how many people have been injured and killed by dogs in the last ten years? Horses? Lightning strikes? What I'm trying to get across to you is that by a process of risk management, the owner reduces the risks involved to their lowest acceptable level. Which, in the case of the majority of hot owners, who have a spread of experience with a wide range of snakes, makes that risk quite slim. Risk can never be completely eradicated, but sensible people manage risk.
You obviously have an inability to comprehend rational argument and have resorted to the common insult that I don't live in the real world and that I deserve to get bitten.
I would like to retort, but would most likely get a ban for calling you a brain dead moron with all the wit and reasoning ability of a slighly retarded stone...................so I won't:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Alex27 (Jul 26, 2008)

sorry to say voodoo but stuartdouglas is right imo


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## Strangelybrown (Sep 25, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Liverpool School of Tropical medicine
> Guy's Hospital London
> Birmingham Hospital


great, if i ever decide to keep hots I'll be safe in the knowledge that help is only about 13 miles down the road at B'ham hospital


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

VoodooWitchDoctor said:


> Compairing driving with keeping venomous snakes is just STUPID.
> 
> What planet are you living on pal?
> 
> ...


Actually stuart is right. Nobody has died in the past 100 years from hots here. Almost everyone who keeps them bar a few idiots are sensible. There is a difference between cars and venomous snakes, the difference being when dealing with the snakes the danger of death is VERY apparent so people take precautions. The amount of people who act like idiots behind the wheel is amazing and take not only their own lives but the lives of OTHERS. If you make a mistake with a venemous snake you alone take the fall. Also you have insurance that will pay off for any problems. Furthermore people are rarely bitten, ive heard of one bite in the past three years and that was someone who was not on the forum. More people are bitten by the british adder for gods sake. 

Lastly in cases of envenenomation anti venom is rarely used. This is for several reasons, normally by the time the patient is transfered to a hospital and the snake is identifyed along with the antivenom by the time antivenom is transfered it will be too late even by chopper. Secondly almost all antivenom is made with horseblood as a base, venom is injected into horses and their blood creates white blood cells imune to the venom and the horse is not harmed... the problem being is the horseblood. Many if not most people suffer severe allergic problems to horseblood antivenoms which will kill them a lot quickly than the venom will so the patient is stabalised and given medication to survive the envenomation proccess till the venom denatures and is removed from the system.

All in all its a lot damn cheaper to sort an envenomation than mr drunk idiot crashing into another persons car, writing off both cars an average of 15k each (30k) damaging the road to about 20k (now 50k) and killing the other two ocupants which the drs strugle for hours to save plus his own medical expenses to save his worthless life. Making the total bill 200k-500k.


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

VoodooWitchDoctor said:


> then you deserve to get bitten during a power cut to teach you a valuable lesson of reality my friend.
> 
> And you are not a sir by any means.......WAKE UP!



So you are actually wishing that someone gets bitten by a venomous snake to teach them a lesson?
So by that rational,anyone on a motorcycle deserves to have a crash just so they respect the road a bit more?
And who would pay for the treatment ?
:censor::bash: "innit bruv"


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## pasty (Jan 20, 2008)

VoodooWitchDoctor said:


> I'm fully comp mate.
> 
> I excepts no less for the above reasons.
> 
> If you do something that is not essential, but is dangerous, you should pay.


The 3rd party is the bit that covers medical etc... Everything else is toppings so makes no difference.

People with Pets on the DWA list have to have the appropriate licence and to get that you have to have specialist insurance which covers public liability. i believe that up to 1 million pounds but could have gone up.
So should you have an "accident" and get bitten then you are covered through your insurance premiums.

So technically "we" aren't paying the owners are through their premiums.


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## breadmikey (Sep 21, 2008)

I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking this but I think someone who pays tax and NI is more entitled to health care with the nhs following a venomous snake bite rather than some lazy t**t who never works and collects his or her dole only to piss it up the wall and start a fight needing police time and possibly hospital care.


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

No one complains about treating someone involved in a motor accident, or someone involved in a skiing accident! So what's the difference?


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## DaveyB (Sep 22, 2008)

VoodooWitchDoctor said:


> Compairing driving with keeping venomous snakes is just STUPID.
> 
> What planet are you living on pal?
> 
> ...


Let's let all the cancer victims (through drinking and smoking and going on sunbeds) die then shall we? Let's kill them all off and refuse them medical treatment because you do not want to pay for it. The little amount of NI you pay each month hardly foots the whole of the medical bill for any one person. Your GP's wages are more than what you pay each year, so should you really be allowed to see your doctor anytime you need to??

I think we need to ask what planet are you on?


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## Doodles (Aug 4, 2007)

DaveyB said:


> Let's let all the cancer victims (through drinking and smoking and going on sunbeds) die then shall we? Let's kill them all off and refuse them medical treatment because you do not want to pay for it. The little amount of NI you pay each month hardly foots the whole of the medical bill for any one person. Your GP's wages are more than what you pay each year, so should you really be allowed to see your doctor anytime you need to??
> 
> I think we need to ask what planet are you on?


I have probably paid about £40k in tax and NI in the last 2 years. I have not been to the doctor or hospital for the last 10 years. If I get bitten I think I have covered the cost. How ever I agree if I get bitten its my fault. If I have my way I never will as I don't take any risks.


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## DaveyB (Sep 22, 2008)

Doodles said:


> I have probably paid about £40k in tax and NI in the last 2 years. I have not been to the doctor or hospital for the last 10 years. If I get bitten I think I have covered the cost. How ever I agree if I get bitten its my fault. If I have my way I never will as I don't take any risks.


I didn't mean people with venemous snakes shouldn't get treated. This was directed at the person who seems to think you shouldn't be treated if you get bitten, yet driving like a maniac warrants treatment.....


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## breadmikey (Sep 21, 2008)

I'd also like to know if one us who keeps reptiles or any other pets for that matter gets bitten by a non-venomous animal and it becomes infected and requires hospital treatment should we not be entitled to that treatment and turned away because it's our fault for keeping animals that can bite.:bash:


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## yellow_rat_gal (Mar 24, 2007)

stuartdouglas said:


> I would like to retort, but would most likely get a ban for calling you a brain dead moron with all the wit and reasoning ability of a slighly retarded stone...................so I won't:Na_Na_Na_Na:


Whadda guy :blush::flrt::flrt:


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## Doodles (Aug 4, 2007)

DaveyB said:


> I didn't mean people with venemous snakes shouldn't get treated. This was directed at the person who seems to think you shouldn't be treated if you get bitten, yet driving like a maniac warrants treatment.....


Sorry meant to quote to quote you both. I agreed with you!


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

yellow_rat_gal said:


> Whadda guy :blush::flrt::flrt:


 
:flrt::blush: back at'cha


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

40k might not be enough to cover a bad bite Colin:whistling2: I have heard of people being bitten by crotalus sp and having to have nearly 30 vials of crofab and hospital bills of over $100,000, but then US doctors seem to know how to bump up the medical costs.


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## Doodles (Aug 4, 2007)

SiUK said:


> 40k might not be enough to cover a bad bite Colin:whistling2: I have heard of people being bitten by crotalus sp and having to have nearly 30 vials of crofab and hospital bills of over $100,000, but then US doctors seem to know how to bump up the medical costs.



Maybe not but my point being I don't get my tax and NI back if I don't use the government for anything so why should it matter the other way.

Either way the amount of tax I am going to be paying in the future is going to be much lower since I left the finance industry. Looks like I left just in time.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

im only joking mate, I think that as venomous keepers we are as entitled as tax payers to treatment as the next person.


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## DaveyB (Sep 22, 2008)

Doodles said:


> Maybe not but my point being I don't get my tax and NI back if I don't use the government for anything so why should it matter the other way.
> 
> Either way the amount of tax I am going to be paying in the future is going to be much lower since I left the finance industry. Looks like I left just in time.


I have also left the finance industry. I was asked to leave though. But on the upside I am thinking of using my payout to buy some mental morphs of snakes. That's depending on the OH agreeing as she said I have to find another job before I blow my money on snakes


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## fatratsandcheesekk (May 18, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Liverpool School of Tropical medicine
> Guy's Hospital London
> Birmingham Hospital


weymouth hospital have anti venom but only for the sea crate they have in the sealife centre


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## lil05 (Jul 22, 2008)

some venomous you dont really need anti venom .. might just knock you out and youll be fine .. obviously with DWA its needed .. unless you want to die then fair enough


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## theonejss (Sep 13, 2008)

just a question about the people that keep venomous snakes do you milk or have them milkedfor venom to make anti venom like they do in other parts of the world


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

theonejss said:


> just a question about the people that keep venomous snakes do you milk or have them milkedfor venom to make anti venom like they do in other parts of the world


No its expensive to preserve and they dont just buy it from anyone, AV producers have well established venom suppliers plus its pretty dangerous to try.: victory:


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

theonejss said:


> just a question about the people that keep venomous snakes do you milk or have them milkedfor venom to make anti venom like they do in other parts of the world


I highly doubt it, its not as easy as people think


You have to have a clinical lab.... no germs etc


Then you have to have all the correct lab equipment,


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## Rain (Oct 9, 2007)

In short.
No, people dont keep anti-venom, it's just not possible. No matter what people think should be done regarding this, it is fact, no one privatly in the UK keeps anti-venom.
And short answer to "what happens if one bites you" is this
Either;
a) make a swift trip to your hospital, informing them on the way that you have been envenomated by a DWA animal, giving them the Latin name, and the size of the animal, at which point they will get the anti-venom flown in from either london, brum or liverpool (which ever the closer), and you might stand a chance.
or
b) do this;


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## pasty (Jan 20, 2008)

DaveyB said:


> Let's let all the cancer victims (through drinking and smoking and going on sunbeds) die then shall we? Let's kill them all off and refuse them medical treatment because you do not want to pay for it. The little amount of NI you pay each month hardly foots the whole of the medical bill for any one person. Your GP's wages are more than what you pay each year, so should you really be allowed to see your doctor anytime you need to??
> 
> I think we need to ask what planet are you on?


You forgot overweight people and anorexic people lets let them fend for themselves as well **shakes head sadly**


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## Doodles (Aug 4, 2007)

Also Gp's get £18 per year per patient on their books no matter how often they see them.

Or at least it used to be that way.


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## pasty (Jan 20, 2008)

Rain, made good points.

I don't have any hots but i do have False water Cobra's which are mildly venomous. i have spoken to my hospital regarding this and they are aware that there is no anti venom - but i have taken them through the probable signs and scenario's of what could happen up to and including severe anafalactic shock. So if one night i have a power cut and i get bitten when i get to hospital there is something on my medical notes so they know what kinds of things to expect.

I would like to think that people who keep hots have something like this or better in place. 99.9% of people who keep hots are going to be very sensible people. Sadly one or two people may have hots without the proper licences and insurance etc. and these are an embarrassment to all of us reptile keepers as when something goes wrong the brush tars all of us in the public perception arena.


There are a lot more hots in the UK than the public realises and the fact there are so few bites reported is a testemant to all the keepers out there.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

theres been quite a few bites this year in the UK of varying degrees of seriousness.


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## Peter wood (Jul 1, 2008)

anybody with any type of injury should be treated thts why everybody pays taxes to cover the cost of medical bills ect people with dangerous hobbies ie keeping venomous snakes/modifying cars + racing them/extreme sports and even idiots tht joyride well im not sure about the last one but no 1 deserves to die for any reason its not as if ur putting other people at risk apart from ur self unless the snake escapes 

you dont pay ur taxes just for u it all goes into 1 account to spread the cost not just to cover urself its just wot u owe 

say ur views but dont bite if u think something else jus say ur personal views ur not snakes u have a mind tht knows right from wrong use it !!!!!:Na_Na_Na_Na:: victory:


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

Ppl always bite on other ppls opinions on forums. Im slowly learning that other ppls opinions dont count:lol2:.
I could put a thread up now and get 100 replies wanting me banned from the forum in half an hour!:whistling2:


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## angels1531 (Aug 27, 2008)

I am a bog standard tax payer. I do not care if my contribution to healthcare gets spent on a child with cancer, or a bloke bitten by a DWA. It's all about saving another human at the end of the day. Live and let live. If we start to play with who or who does not deserve free medical care you'd better make sure you're a saint yourself!


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## Peter wood (Jul 1, 2008)

angels1531 said:


> I am a bog standard tax payer. I do not care if my contribution to healthcare gets spent on a child with cancer, or a bloke bitten by a DWA. It's all about saving another human at the end of the day. Live and let live. If we start to play with who or who does not deserve free medical care you'd better make sure you're a saint yourself!


 
i agree


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## Chriseybear (Jun 6, 2008)

Agree with above, Tax is tax everybody complains about it but we all have to pay it and as long as it goes to something good - i.e healthcare be it Cancer, A broken leg on a toddler an inhaler for a pensior, somebody bitten by his viper- i couldnt care less as long its for good. (in reason not some mps house!)

That guy posting earlier, saying you hope somebody should get bit, you are an idiotic fool. Theres no possible way to even dignify what you said.

In relation to the OP, as most have stated im sure its not practicle to keep antivenom (as much as i'd want to if i had Hots!) but im glad to know theres a hospital that does in liverpool! haha.


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## XoxOriptideOxoX (Jul 11, 2008)

you shoudnt have to pay to get anti venome... and if you do it shodutn be that much....


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

*Ive had a think.........*

I do think ppl who keep HOT's as a hobby should pay themselves for anti-venom. Purely because if the money to treat them comes from tax payers i feel it could be better spent!

Makes me sick to think that some idiot has been bitten by a Cobra that doesnt belong in captivity(IMO) and recieves ££££ worth of anti-venom when there is someones Grandad dying in a Hospice!

I know there is insurance and other fees involved but a bad bite(i know there is no such thing as a good one lol) is going to cost stupid money around the 30k mark for 15 or so vials. Would that 30k not be better spent on Cancer Research? After all its not essential to keep HOT's.

If this puts keeping HOT's out of ppls reach then so be it. IMO there is just some animals better off left in the wild anyway.

However, I do enjoy reading and watching the experiences of ppl who keep HOT's!!

Also i dont have a say where the N.I. or TAX i contribute goes. If i did them Pesky Poles would'nt get none (and i wouldnt let them use the NHS that we have had to pay for all our lives :devil
But there is nothing anyone can do about it!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

rc10andy said:


> I do think ppl who keep HOT's as a hobby should pay themselves for anti-venom. Purely because if the money to treat them comes from tax payers i feel it could be better spent!
> 
> Makes me sick to think that some idiot has been bitten by a Cobra that doesnt belong in captivity(IMO) and recieves ££££ worth of anti-venom when there is someones Grandad dying in a Hospice!
> 
> ...


so do you not drive a car or are you totally anti alcohol and smoking, how about overweight people, surely the millions of pounds spent every year on those things could be better spent on cancer research? When in reality annual treatment for evenomations only comes to a fraction of the costs of what I mentioned above.


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## Peter wood (Jul 1, 2008)

The National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism has estimated that excessive drinking costs Americans more than $175 billion each year

and thats just drinking alcohol in america!!!!

not sure on what total costs on venomous snake bites are per year but im sure that it isnt anywhere near that for the whole world !!!!!!!


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## pasty (Jan 20, 2008)

Peter wood said:


> The National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism has estimated that excessive drinking costs Americans more than $175 billion each year
> 
> and thats just drinking alcohol in america!!!!
> 
> not sure on what total costs on venomous snake bites are per year but im sure that it isnt anywhere near that for the whole world !!!!!!!


Hmmm i wonder were the savings would be?

Ban alcohol - Saving $175 billion
Ban Snakes - Saving (lets say a freakishly large) $1 billion (it's gonna be nowhere near that i'm sure)


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## breadmikey (Sep 21, 2008)

rc10andy said:


> I do think ppl who keep HOT's as a hobby should pay themselves for anti-venom. Purely because if the money to treat them comes from tax payers i feel it could be better spent!
> 
> Makes me sick to think that some idiot has been bitten by a Cobra that doesnt belong in captivity(IMO) and recieves ££££ worth of anti-venom when there is someones Grandad dying in a Hospice!
> 
> ...


 
How can you say a cobra or other snake doesnt belong in captivity when you keep snakes yourself. Whats the difference in keeping a cobra, corn snake, royal or boa the principal is the same with regardless of what snake it is :devil:


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

SiUK said:


> so do you not drive a car or are you totally anti alcohol and smoking, how about overweight people, surely the millions of pounds spent every year on those things could be better spent on cancer research? When in reality annual treatment for evenomations only comes to a fraction of the costs of what I mentioned above.


How is driving a car (which in this day and age is virtually essential) compared with owning venamous snakes for pleasure(when there is more than enough non-venamous to keep) 

I am not totally anti alcohol no, i think it should be enjoyed responsibly, but if i decide im gonna get blind drunk one night id have to be having a pretty bad night to die from it!
I am not totally anti smoking either(although i do like it now its been banned from public places), but the tax these ppl pay on **** more than pays for any treatment they may need from the NHS, i guess the same could go for alchol too!

I dont know the exact figures of envenamations in the UK i wouldnt even like to guess.....but IMO if there has been 1 envenamation in the last 20 yrs that cost 30k id rather the 30k been spent on a Cancer suffer then some idiot who has been tagged by a HOT! When this could have been avoided.


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## Jb1432 (Apr 19, 2008)

rc10andy said:


> I do think ppl who keep HOT's as a hobby should pay themselves for anti-venom. Purely because if the money to treat them comes from tax payers i feel it could be better spent!
> 
> Makes me sick to think that some idiot has been bitten by a Cobra that doesnt belong in captivity(IMO) and recieves ££££ worth of anti-venom when there is someones Grandad dying in a Hospice!
> 
> ...


What about all the spongers of the state WE pay for and people that cant be arsed to work? And you going to stop walking across roads and be a vegetable? Theres millions of risks you take everyday. Say you were driving your car and crashed. You'd expect for someone to pay for your injuries. :bash:


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## Peter wood (Jul 1, 2008)

pasty said:


> Hmmm i wonder were the savings would be?
> 
> Ban alcohol - Saving $175 billion
> Ban Snakes - Saving (lets say a freakishly large) $1 billion (it's gonna be nowhere near that i'm sure)


exactly haha :2thumb:


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

breadmikey said:


> How can you say a cobra or other snake doesnt belong in captivity when you keep snakes yourself. Whats the difference in keeping a cobra, corn snake, royal or boa the principal is the same with regardless of what snake it is :devil:


 Ok...for your benefit let me straighten out what i said because it doesnt read as i wanted it to!

I believe ALL animals would be better off left in the wild!

Although i think some animals are more appropriate to keep in captivity.

I.E. if someone feels the need to keep a snake in captivity.....a Royal Python is a better choice than a Lance head......understand?

If someone would like a dog...a Whippet is more appropriate then a American Pit Bull.......


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## Merve (Sep 6, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Do you have private health insurance to cover the cost of medical treatment if you're involved in a car accident?
> 
> DWA owners are required by law to have third party Public liability insurance, in the same way as car drivers are required to have a minimum of 3rd party insurance.
> 
> ...


 
Did you know the NHS also pays for sex changes and 'speech therapy' for sex changed people who want to sound more like the sex they have adopted. I think its perfectly fair for the NHS to pay for the very rare occasion they would need anti venom, i mean, how often do people get bitten anyway?I expect its extremely rare. People go to hospital all the time with nasty dog bites that require rabies injections etc that are more expensive than you realise. Did you know that the average steroid inhaler an asthmatic takes costs £70 a pop? And a cochlear implant for a hard of hearing person costs £18,000? The cost of the odd random bit of anti venom pales into comparison. Please stop getting all het up about it. :flrt: We are all about lovin snakeys and not hatin each other :flrt:


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## Jb1432 (Apr 19, 2008)

rc10andy said:


> How is driving a car (which in this day and age is virtually essential) compared with owning venamous snakes for pleasure(when there is more than enough non-venamous to keep)
> 
> I am not totally anti alcohol no, i think it should be enjoyed responsibly, but if i decide im gonna get blind drunk one night id have to be having a pretty bad night to die from it!
> I am not totally anti smoking either(although i do like it now its been banned from public places), but the tax these ppl pay on **** more than pays for any treatment they may need from the NHS, i guess the same could go for alchol too!
> ...


Tobacco: Accounts for about one-third of all cancer deaths in U.K. each year. 
Diet/Weight/Physical Inactivity: Obesity appears to be one of the most important modifiable causes of cancer after tobacco. 
Ultraviolet radiation: Radiation from the sun, sunlamps or tanning beds can lead to melanoma and other forms of skin cancer. The incidence of skin cancers is increasing

Most cancers are PREVENTABLE

Nuff Said.


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## Peter wood (Jul 1, 2008)

its the same as everyday pets such as dogs eg rottweilers staffies which i love both of them u cud just as easy get bitten or even worse savaged by one of these even a labrador but u wud still keep one if offered wudnt u?


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

Jb1432 said:


> What about all the spongers of the state WE pay for and people that cant be arsed to work? And you going to stop walking across roads and be a vegetable? Theres millions of risks you take everyday. Say you were driving your car and crashed. You'd expect for someone to pay for your injuries. :bash:


 Correct but these r essential risks.....you HAVE TO CROSS A ROAD and if you get hit then sorry about that....bad luck

You DO NOT have to keep Venamous Snakes in order to survive with ease!

If i was driving my car to work(i need to work to live) and i crashed i would expect the NHS to pay for my injuries......
If i was feeding my King Cobra....that by the way does not make my life easier in any way whatsoever...and i got tagged, i wouldnt expect a penny.

But then again if i was walking through The Hollywood Hills and was tagged by a rattler id expect help yes!

:bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash:


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## Magik (Jul 22, 2008)

rc10andy said:


> Ok...for your benefit let me straighten out what i said because it doesnt read as i wanted it to!
> 
> I believe ALL animals would be better off left in the wild!
> 
> ...


To be honest that argument is pretty ridiculous more royals are taking from the wild than lancehead so by people thinking they are more appropriate for captivity you are basically causing the demise of a species

On the Pit Bull note they are just as capable of attacking someone as a whippet


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## Jb1432 (Apr 19, 2008)

rc10andy said:


> Correct but these r essential risks.....you HAVE TO CROSS A ROAD and if you get hit then sorry about that....bad luck
> 
> You DO NOT have to keep Venamous Snakes in order to survive with ease!
> 
> ...


I get your point, but any experienced keeper that keeps hots can reduce the chances of getting bitten to a minimal, i currently have a mangrove snake to me, these are venomous but i take great care with her to avoid getting bitten, i havent been bitten by her yet lol, and if i did yes i would expect the nhs to pay for me as i pay my Taxes and N.I, i also pay for all the scum not to work and walk around town drinking cans of skol all day. Plus look at this way, how many times have you seen children in the news recently being mauled by dogs. What about the activities you enjoy doing. Swimming? you could easily drown. Biking? break your neck or split your head open just from riding along. Golf? (i play) could get hit on the head. Any activities you enjoy doing? These all have risks, and you chose to do them cause you LIKE them.:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## breadmikey (Sep 21, 2008)

trying to claim that certain snakes are more suitable to be kept in captivity is laughable. granted some are easier to keep than others but no snake asks to be kept in a tank or viv and it is our job as keepers to do the best to make them happy and comfortable. Whether it be venomous or not, who has the right to say that one snake can be kept and the other left in the wild......... let me guess your gonna tell me your god:bash:


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

Do you know what im not going to put any input into these types of threads anymore because there is too many nerds throwing up statistics without sources or anything to back them up! 

When ppl go out for a meal.....for a drink....round to friends ect ect a few beers and a *** will probably be involved...i like to think these r lifes luxuries and make a hard life easier....i think its getting stupid when ppl start saying most cancers are caused by smoking and drinking ect!

However whilst it is nice to keep a few exotics i dont think they help my life in anyway and i could comftably live without them! 

As for DWA snakes.......well to be honest its not even worth trying to argue with you lot.....

I AGREE THE 30K SPENT ON 15 VIALS OF ANTI-VENOM THAT COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED WOULD NOT BE BETTER SPENT ON THAT IDIOT STUGGLING TO LIFT THEIR HEAD IN A HOSPICE BECAUSE THEY HAD A FEW PINTS AND A CIGGIE ON A FRIDAY NIGHT. puts in into perspective for me! i know exactly where i would want my 30k to go.


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## Jb1432 (Apr 19, 2008)

rc10andy said:


> Do you know what im not going to put any input into these types of threads anymore because there is too many nerds throwing up statistics without sources or anything to back them up!
> 
> When ppl go out for a meal.....for a drink....round to friends ect ect a few beers and a *** will probably be involved...i like to think these r lifes luxuries and make a hard life easier....i think its getting stupid when ppl start saying most cancers are caused by smoking and drinking ect!
> 
> ...


 
Why when its true?


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

rc10andy said:


> Ok...for your benefit let me straighten out what i said because it doesnt read as i wanted it to!
> 
> I believe ALL animals would be better off left in the wild!
> 
> ...


 
I think somebody wants to have their cake and eat it! Your line in the sand seems to perfectly fit your life choices and blow everyone else.

Lets talk specifics - take your very own bci for example. I don't know if you have any children, but if you do or did, and something awful happened involving said snake and the child ended up in hospital - are you saying that you would be happy to pay all bills concerning said child, as it is your personal choice to keep the potentially very dangerous bci?

If you are thinking of saying that you would never let the child come in contact with the bci - then same applies to any hot keeper.

How about a feeding mistake that leads to you having large teeth marks and bruising on your arm, it gets infected, you go to hospital - do you offer to settle the bill personally 'cos it's your choice to keep the boa? I think not!

All of life carries risks, and all of us choose to take certain risks. Some activities/jobs and interests/hobbies involve more risk than others. Everyone contributes to the pot, some take more, some take less. That, my friend is the society you belong to and the one you are so keen to protect (pesky poles wasn't it?!). Unless you are personally willing to take every tax payer and risk assess their entire lives (length of time in car, postcode, hobbies, job, intelligence, qualifications, age, health, family history.......) then there is simply no way to decide who is and who isn't entitled to use the help that we all pay for.

Cheers

Andy


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

Jb1432 said:


> Why when its true?


 Exactly who knows what exactly causes cancer?????? But i was quoted cancer can be avoided by not smoking or drinking...yes it can....byt who wants to go through life like that? Not me...


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## breadmikey (Sep 21, 2008)

Id sooner see my tax and NI contributions go to helping someone who had been tagged by a venomous snake than pay for some good for nothing, lazy piece of s**t that never works and drinks there dole money up the wall and doesnt contribute to society but just takes from the system. ive worked my arse off since i was 16 and am now 28 so ive contributed a fair amount, so id like to think if i decided to keep venomous snakes i would be looked after by the NHS that i pay into more so than these idiots who do nothing and get into fights and need medical attention...... especially when their bottles of white lightning were 'on me'


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

rc10andy said:


> I do think ppl who keep HOT's as a hobby should pay themselves for anti-venom. Purely because if the money to treat them comes from tax payers i feel it could be better spent!
> 
> Makes me sick to think that some idiot has been bitten by a Cobra that doesnt belong in captivity(IMO) and recieves ££££ worth of anti-venom when there is someones Grandad dying in a Hospice!
> 
> ...


Well, here we go again................

1. please quote the source of your information regarding the cost of antivenin. Which type and from where?

2. As already stated, hundreds of thousands of pounds of NHS money is spent on "non-essential", non lifesaving treatment, who are you or anyone else to say who deserves what treatment and when. If your reasoning is to be followed, everyone who takes part in any activity, through choice, not necessity, that carries a risk of injury, should forfeit the right to treatment on the NHS?

3. Why are only *some* animals better off in the wild and not captivity? If that's your argument, then all herp keeping, aquatics, birds and basically everything bar dogs and cats should be banned?

This thread is really starting to get on my t*ts. So you don't agree with people keeping hots, you don't agree that in the event of a bite, they should be treated on the NHS..................tough sh*t, that's the way it is, get over it!

:bash:


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

Its peoples personal choice to keep venemous. I personally don't have anything against it and wouldn't expect them to have to pay for anti-venom if they did get bitten anyway. Sex changes on the other hand should not be free on the NHS.


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

bothrops said:


> I think somebody wants to have their cake and eat it! Your line in the sand seems to perfectly fit your life choices and blow everyone else.
> 
> Lets talk specifics - take your very own bci for example. I don't know if you have any children, but if you do or did, and something awful happened involving said snake and the child ended up in hospital - are you saying that you would be happy to pay all bills concerning said child, as it is your personal choice to keep the potentially very dangerous bci?
> 
> ...


 Ok so if i stick my arm in my Boa viv with a mouse what is my chance of anything life threatening happening? 2% at worst i may need a couple of stitches.

If i stick my arm in a viv a King Cobra...its pretty safe to say im dead.....

as for the rest of what you said im not willing to argue my feelings on how this countrys tax and immigrant policy upsets me.

Cheers

Andy


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

rc10andy said:


> Ok so if i stick my arm in my Boa viv with a mouse what is my chance of anything life threatening happening? 2% at worst i may need a couple of stitches.
> 
> If i stick my arm in a viv a King Cobra...its pretty safe to say im dead.....
> 
> ...


But venemous keepers don't just "stick their arm in the viv" the majority of them are clever and don't want to die.


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Well, here we go again................
> 
> 1. *please quote the source of your information regarding the cost of antivenin. Which type and from where?*
> 
> ...


as ive said in a previous post i do not have any sources of correct statistics.....altough i do remember this being said earlier

'bit off the mark, CroFab is $1937.50 for two vials. treatment usually specifies five vials, but severe envenomation can require upwards of fifteen!!!
It has a longer shelf life than a few months'
__________________
Why can't anyone call me "sir" without adding "will you please leave" ?


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

bradhollands999 said:


> But venemous keepers don't just "stick their arm in the viv" the majority of them are clever and don't want to die.


 No they r not but im trying to state that a HOTS keeper has a much higher chance of being injured/dead than i do with my Boas.


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## breadmikey (Sep 21, 2008)

rc10andy said:


> Ok so if i stick my arm in my Boa viv with a mouse what is my chance of anything life threatening happening? 2% at worst i may need a couple of stitches.
> 
> If i stick my arm in a viv a King Cobra...its pretty safe to say im dead.....
> 
> ...


 
so its ok for you to keep your snake which could potentially be dangerous albeit a small risk but not ok for others to keep venomous with higher risk although taking the correct precautions for that i.e not sticking their hand in the viv. Seems that as long as it doesnt affect what you own it shouldnt be allowed.


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## yellow_rat_gal (Mar 24, 2007)

I think I just developed a lil crush on stuartdouglas *giggles and runs away*


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

breadmikey said:


> Id sooner see my tax and NI contributions go to helping someone who had been tagged by a venomous snake than pay for some good for nothing, lazy piece of s**t that never works and drinks there dole money up the wall and doesnt contribute to society but just takes from the system. ive worked my arse off since i was 16 and am now 28 so ive contributed a fair amount, so id like to think if i decided to keep venomous snakes i would be looked after by the NHS that i pay into more so than these idiots who do nothing and get into fights and need medical attention...... especially when their bottles of white lightning were 'on me'


 Me to...but thats for a different forum!


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## breadmikey (Sep 21, 2008)

rc10andy said:


> No they r not but im trying to state that a HOTS keeper has a much higher chance of being injured/dead than i do with my Boas.


 
there is more chance of a motor cyclist being killed than a car driver - should we ban that or refuse them medical attention when they fall off?


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

rc10andy said:


> Ok so if i stick my arm in my Boa viv with a mouse what is my chance of anything life threatening happening? 2% at worst i may need a couple of stitches.
> 
> If i stick my arm in a viv a King Cobra...its pretty safe to say im dead.....
> 
> ...


 
fine, go to the hospital, get your couple of stitches, then ask for the bill. As for "stick your arm in with a King Cobra"..............that doesn't even warrant a response, it's so lame.

You have less than no clue about keeping hots and are making off the cuff statements with no thought or rationale or evidence to support them. 

How many people have been bitten by *privately* owned venomous snakes in the last ten years (privately owned is excluding those in zoos and petshops)?

If you imagine that someone would blithely put their hand in with a venomous snake, then you IMHO are "not firing on all cylinders" and really should limit your collection to what you have, lest you feature in a future Reverse Darwin Award ceremony:lol2:
How many "hot" keepers do you know personally? What do you know of their safety procedures, protocols etc? I would imagine the answers to be "none" and "nothing"

Do some research, put up some evidence and you may have a rational argument, failing that, you are merely throwing random statements together plucked from God only knows where


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

breadmikey said:


> there is more chance of a motor cyclist being killed than a car driver - should we ban that or refuse them medical attention when they fall off?


Exactly, it just goes round in circles and never ends.



stuartdouglas said:


> fine, go to the hospital, get your couple of stitches, then ask for the bill. As for "stick your arm in with a King Cobra"..............that doesn't even warrant a response, it's so lame.
> 
> You have less than no clue about keeping hots and are making off the cuff statements with no thought or rationale or evidence to support them.
> 
> ...


:no1::no1::2thumb::2thumb:


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## yellow_rat_gal (Mar 24, 2007)

stuartdouglas said:


> Do some research, put up some evidence and you may have a rational argument, failing that, you are merely throwing random statements together plucked from God only knows where


Wikipedia and a thesaurus! : victory:


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

This is one of the most rediculous arguments Ive ever come across on here. Certainly shows the caliber of some of our fellow inhabitants.

*shakes head*

Bring on the nanny state. No, wait. Lets all go live in America............. :roll:


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## yellow_rat_gal (Mar 24, 2007)

Crownan said:


> This is one of the most rediculous arguments Ive ever come across on here. Certainly shows the caliber of some of our fellow inhabitants.
> 
> *shakes head*
> 
> Bring on the nanny state. No, wait. Lets all go live in America............. :roll:


Only if you buy me a ticket (and food and pay me bills n rent) :whistling2:


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

I think too many of you are seeing this in black or white..... Here's a nice shade of grey.
They are discovering amazing properties in snake venom, things that can alleviate the suffering of thousands of people.
To study this, snakes are milked. So antivenom is required for the research bods that work with hots. 
Now we have loads of this stuff just hanging around waiting to be used, so isn't it better to practice on some hobbiest who gets it wrong than an important research bod doing his job...... 
I know I would prefer the docs to know the effects of treatment before they had to try it on me...LOL
Seriously...
And going back to the OP..... I know 3 people who have been tagged.... 1 lost the end of a finger and 2 were dry bites.... 
And you cannot keep AV yourself as you would probably do more damage administering your self than the bite did... And you cannot take your own medication into hospital with you.....


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

rc10andy said:


> How is driving a car (which in this day and age is virtually essential) compared with owning venamous snakes for pleasure(when there is more than enough non-venamous to keep)


Driving a car is in no way, shape or form essential.

My household has been carless since middle of 2006. It can be *inconvenient* but it is more than possible to live using public transport and occasionally catching a ride with someone who has a car.

So having a car - and driving it - is a luxury, and people who insist upon having their own cars should have to pay for any medical treatment incurred by themselves or others as a result of mismanagement of that car.

Oh, wait. That's not how it works at all. When I was hospitalised recently due to injuries inflicted by my seatbelt - in that accident that Nienna, Onissarle and I were in down in London when we went to pick up the royals - they didn't ask me who was driving, who was at fault or whether I should have been wearing a different seatbelt or something... they just diagnosed and treated the acute pancreatitis.

I'm betting that if I was bitten by my hognose - a mildly venomous snake which I notice you also keep - and went into anaphylactic shock, they'd also treat me. If you - or your partner, or your child - was bitten by a hoggie or stung by a bee or a spider and reacted to it - I can bet you'd want the hospital to pick up the tab. 



> I am not totally anti alcohol no, i think it should be enjoyed responsibly, but if i decide im gonna get blind drunk one night id have to be having a pretty bad night to die from it!


Doesn't actually take all that much to die of alcohol poisoning... or from a fatal introduction of sharp pointed foreign bodies into your body because someone took offense at what you said while under the influence. If you got stabbed while drunk I'm also betting you'd want someone to treat you. 



rc10andy said:


> Exactly who knows what exactly causes cancer?????? But i was quoted cancer can be avoided by not smoking or drinking...yes it can....byt who wants to go through life like that? Not me...


You say that like it's not possible to have a happy, full social life without poisoning yourself.

I think I'll stick to the potentiality of my reptiles doing me harm instead of the actuality of destroying my liver, pancreas or lungs with recreational and completely optional chemicals.

Of course, a DWA holder should have liability insurance to deal with the risk to OTHER people... but nobody should be denied medical treatment that they could not afford if they were, say, in the United States, simply because they choose to have unusual hobbies that might result in injury or illness.

If it weren't for my snakes, I wouldn't have been down in London and I wouldn't have been in the car accident... and I wouldn't have spent 48 hours on a drip while they tried to work out whether it was my appendix that had been damaged or my pancreas/liver/gallbladder.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

yellow_rat_gal said:


> Only if you buy me a ticket (and food and pay me bills n rent) :whistling2:


Would that be the huge medical bills? :whistling2: :lol2:


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## wulfrun (Jun 1, 2008)

angels1531 said:


> I am a bog standard tax payer. I do not care if my contribution to healthcare gets spent on a child with cancer, or a bloke bitten by a DWA. It's all about saving another human at the end of the day. Live and let live. If we start to play with who or who does not deserve free medical care you'd better make sure you're a saint yourself!


As atax and HI player and a mother of a child who has died of cancer IE: leukemia, i feel the same. Every person has the right to life saving treatments.

My boy was only 16 months old when he died, would that mean that because he didn't pay any tax or NI he shouldn't have been given any treatment. I for one would not keep venomous animals as even a simple little wasp could kill me as i go into Anaphlactic (sp) shock, but would not want any one who wants to keep them be penalised for doing so.


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

Ok....im gonna get off this thread now cos its getting daft.......

Everything ive said is in my personal opinion, and if others think that money is better of spent on anti-venom that cancer research then thats your personal opinion.....

*I believe my original input in this thread was 'i personally believe that the money spent on anti-venom in the UK would be better left with the Cancer Research team' - or words to that affect.

*I also IMPO consider a non-venamos snake more appropriate to live in captivity that a venamous one. Pure and simpily because there is less chance of dying!

*I consider being in a car accident or a Motorcycle accident unlucky but i think we need these types of transport to get around and have a easier life. Also car manufactures are taking technology futher to prevent such awful occurences. I do not see how keeping a HOT snake makes lives any easier whatsoever.

*I am not banding comments around from 'god only knows where' i am stating my personal opinion!
Im sure i have previously said i have no sources or statistics to back up what i have said it is all my personal opinon. But nothing i have read on this thread has been backed up either.

Cheers 
Andy


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## yellow_rat_gal (Mar 24, 2007)

Crownan said:


> Would that be the huge medical bills? :whistling2: :lol2:


Hush now, you're making light of a very serious subject here...



And that's my job! :bash:


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## yellow_rat_gal (Mar 24, 2007)

*I believe my original input in this thread was 'i personally believe that the money spent on anti-venom in the UK would be better left with the Cancer Research team' - or words to that affect.

Much like money spent by the NSPCC/RSPCA/Cancer research etc on advertising would be much better spent on animals/research 
 
*I also IMPO consider a non-venamos snake more appropriate to live in captivity that a venamous one. Pure and simpily because there is less chance of dying!

People who keep hots know the risk involved, and I doubt they'd put their own lives at risk if they didn't believe they wouldn't get bitten, and have the skill to avoid a bite.

*I consider being in a car accident or a Motorcycle accident unlucky but i think we need these types of transport to get around and have a easier life. Also car manufactures are taking technology futher to prevent such awful occurences. I do not see how keeping a HOT snake makes lives any easier whatsoever.

People make a choice to drive, it isn't entirely necessary, I know many people who don't drive and they still seem to be able to get to the shops, go visit people etc etc.
People make a choice to keep hots. Respect their decision and trust they know enough to avoid a bite at all costs!
 
*I am not banding comments around from 'god only knows where' i am stating my personal opinion!
Im sure i have previously i have no sources or statistics to back up what i have said it is all my personal opinon. But nothing i have read on this thread has been backed up either.

There have been facts and statistics about the LACK of deaths due to hots, does that not count?


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

*Keepers don't keep anti venom because you need to be a doctor of medicine to administer it!!!*


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

bothrops said:


> I think somebody wants to have their cake and eat it! Your line in the sand seems to perfectly fit your life choices and blow everyone else.
> 
> Lets talk specifics - take your very own bci for example. I don't know if you have any children, but if you do or did, and something awful happened involving said snake and the child ended up in hospital - are you saying that you would be happy to pay all bills concerning said child, as it is your personal choice to keep the potentially very dangerous bci?
> 
> ...





rc10andy said:


> Ok so if i stick my arm in my Boa viv with a mouse what is my chance of anything life threatening happening? 2% at worst i may need a couple of stitches.
> 
> If i stick my arm in a viv a King Cobra...its pretty safe to say im dead.....
> 
> ...


OK, ignore the bit about immigration issues - your right, that's irrelevant for this discussion, but please re-read the issue about risks?

How is you '2%' (talking of random stats!) any more or less valid than someone elses risk. You know that the risk of serious injury from your boa is minimal, so you take minimal precautions to aviod it. A hot keeper knows a mistake could be fatal and so takes every possible precaution to avoid the tag. Every single action you take has an associated risk, and your own internal common sense makes a judgement call on the risk, and the appropriate precautions.

Your '2%' risk of serious injury is countered by a 60% effort to avoid a bite. A hot keepers '90%' risk of serious injury from they snake is countered by a 100% concentration and focus to avoid the bite at all costs.

Your arguement is fundamentally floored - ALL activities carry risk, and everyone does what they can to avoid the risk. People who do high risk activities correspondingly work harder to avoid that risk.

Cheers

Andy


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## wulfrun (Jun 1, 2008)

SiUK said:


> so do you not drive a car or are you totally anti alcohol and smoking, how about overweight people, surely the millions of pounds spent every year on those things could be better spent on cancer research? When in reality annual treatment for evenomations only comes to a fraction of the costs of what I mentioned above.


 I'm over weight but I've not been to see a doctor in years except for holiday jabs which I paid for. Are you saying that I should not get treatment if i did become ill. I've paid my tax and NI for over 30 years and not had that much out of it. I don't smoke or drink i've driven a car for the last 32 years and never had an accident.


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## Merve (Sep 6, 2008)

Blahh

The NHS pays for treatments of all kinds, including, as i said before, for transgender people to speak more girly. This is highly irrelevant. 

NICE guidance allows for the administration of antivenom where needed just the same as it pays for sight saving drugs, for steroid injections into knackered shoulders, for investigative surgery, for some laser tattoo removal, for breast reduction in some cases etc etc etc.. 

What the NHS pays for and doesnt pay for is down the National Institut for Clinical Excellence, and the government, who we vote in (apparently) so if we dont like the way they spend our money, we should vote for somebody else, or move somewhere else, like Guernsey where they only have private medical facilities and stop griping about random stuff on a forum that should just be about our excellent animals, that we love very much. 

DWA owners love their scary critters just as much as i love my BCIs and my hoggies (Cute!) and i wouldnt take that away from them. 

I had a 'more suitable' pet once in a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel.. bit a hole in my nose, clean through it. Had to have tetanus injection.

Ho hum.. (wanders off to the picture threads as they are more interesting)


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## yellow_rat_gal (Mar 24, 2007)

glidergirl said:


> *Keepers don't keep anti venom because you need to be a doctor of medicine to administer it!!!*


Do they also not need to figure out approx how much venom was delivered to get the right doseage, or am I just dreaming stuff up again? lol


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

rc10andy said:


> Ok....im gonna get off this thread now cos its getting daft.......
> 
> Everything ive said is in my personal opinion, and if others think that money is better of spent on anti-venom that cancer research then thats your personal opinion.....
> 
> ...


Come on Andy, you quoted £30K for "fifteen or so" vials of antivenin is that your personal opinion? Based upon what? I can quote you the going price for CroFab polyvalent antivenin, made by Wyeth labs $1937.50 for two vials, where did you get the £30K figure from, you ain't ducking out just 'cos you've been backed into a corner dude:2thumb:

As for your original post, here's what you said
_"I know there is insurance and other fees involved but a bad bite(i know there is no such thing as a good one lol) is going to cost stupid money around the 30k mark for 15 or so vials. Would that 30k not be better spent on Cancer Research? After all its not essential to keep HOT's."_

There's a whole world of activities and other things that are not essential but we do because we enjoy..............it's called living, as opposed to just existing. Some of those activities carry risks (I get a sense of deja vu here, like I've said this so many times before) Who has the right to pick and choose which of those activities is "more deserving" of free treatment than another. Yes, money spent on treating an envenomation could be spent elsewhere, but that money is/would be a drop in the ocean to the millions spent on free methadone for addicts, free treatment and prescritions to the terminally unemployed, free gender reassignment therapy and surgery, yet every recipient of thos things listed would argue that it is their right to receive this treatment, despite the fact that they chose to take drugs, they choose to not have jobs and chose to change gender.

Would you rather have a medical system like the USA? everyone pays, if you don't have insurance, woe betide you.

I respect your opinion, but think your argument was ill thought out and without foundation, but, that's just mine:whistling2:


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

glidergirl said:


> *Keepers don't keep anti venom because you need to be a doctor of medicine to administer it!!!*


Plus there are a lot more complications caused by wrongly administered anti venom than there are from the actual bite.

Nice to see the idiot brigade is still out in force though.


----------



## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

yellow_rat_gal said:


> Do they also not need to figure out approx how much venom was delivered to get the right doseage, or am I just dreaming stuff up again? lol


 
yup, you're dreaming:lol2:, there's no way of knowing how much venom was injected by a bite. Basically they (Dr's, not snakes) administer a "starting amount" as recommended by the antivenin manufacturers, then wait to see if it halts the symptoms, if not, then give more............repeat as required


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## stucoady (May 23, 2008)

yellow_rat_gal said:


> *I believe my original input in this thread was 'i personally believe that the money spent on anti-venom in the UK would be better left with the Cancer Research team' - or words to that affect.
> 
> Much like money spent by the NSPCC/RSPCA/Cancer research etc on advertising would be much better spent on animals/research
> 
> ...


 
Do you live in a city or town as if so then it is possible to live without them? But for many the Car is very much plays a necessary part of our lives. Without it I could not do my job as a social worker?


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## Merve (Sep 6, 2008)

I know 3 family support workers without cars..

Ho hum


MY HOGGIES ARE COOL MY HOGGIES ARE COOL I LOVE MY HOGGIES ESPECIALLY HOWARD THE HOGGIE YAY! 

Huh? : victory:


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## yellow_rat_gal (Mar 24, 2007)

stuartdouglas said:


> yup, you're dreaming:lol2:, there's no way of knowing how much venom was injected by a bite. Basically they (Dr's, not snakes) administer a "starting amount" as recommended by the antivenin manufacturers, then wait to see if it halts the symptoms, if not, then give more............repeat as required


ahhh well nowt new there :blush:


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

bothrops said:


> OK, ignore the bit about immigration issues - your right, that's irrelevant for this discussion, but please re-read the issue about risks?
> 
> How is you '2%' (talking of random stats!) any more or less valid than someone elses risk. You know that the risk of serious injury from your boa is minimal, so you take minimal precautions to aviod it. A hot keeper knows a mistake could be fatal and so takes every possible precaution to avoid the tag. Every single action you take has an associated risk, and your own internal common sense makes a judgement call on the risk, and the appropriate precautions.
> 
> ...


 Normally when i sign off threads i dont go back on them but cos i think this subject is interesting ill give you my opinion.

If you are willing to go back to my original point i was trying to make without being sidetracked you will see my argument is that anti-venom money should be used to treat cancer suffers and if a hot is what you want to keep then you should be made to buy and hold your own anti-venom if needed! If you do not have the money for it then tough!
Cancer can be avoided but it would be so so difficult. My personal opinion is that it cannot be avoided, as for a venamous snake bite in the UK it is so so so easy to avoid. Am i wrong?

With the 2% quote...i was just trying to show the extremes between the chance of dying by a non-venamous bite and the chance of dying by a venamous bite. I have not got the resourses to conduct a survey on this but i was just trying to say that it is alot more likely you are going to die from a HOT bite than say a Royal!

All activitys do carry a risk but PERSONALY i think dieing whilst doing something recreational (football, rollerblading) is far less likely that keeping HOTS.

I also understand that most HOTS keepers r very responsible people and take the upmost care not to get bitten, but if they were to get bitten i think they should have to pay it themselves.


----------



## stucoady (May 23, 2008)

Merve said:


> I know 3 family support workers without cars..
> 
> Ho hum
> 
> ...


Where do they work, in London. I used to work in London and could the job without a car but you were so limited to the amount of visists you could make because of the amount of time it took to travel on public transport. I now work in the wilds of norfolk so how could I do it without a car huh


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## Merve (Sep 6, 2008)

Derby. Yeah i know what youre on with if you live in Norfolk, nice place btw, stayed in Horning once in the broads. It was lovely. 

BEWARE OF SPANIELS!


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## Peter wood (Jul 1, 2008)

omg i expected this to be a 3 reply thread either a yes/no answer with an explination haha


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

FFS, whats with the arguing and bickering....

If somone said Anti-Venom costs a tenner.... you wouldnt be moaning now

Its not like you have to pay Anti Venom tax




If the op wouldnt of asked, then he wouldnt of known the price


Stop arguing, getting like 12 year olds


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Come on Andy, you quoted £30K for "fifteen or so" vials of antivenin is that your personal opinion? Based upon what? I can quote you the going price for CroFab polyvalent antivenin, made by Wyeth labs $1937.50 for two vials, where did you get the £30K figure from, you ain't ducking out just 'cos you've been backed into a corner dude:2thumb:
> 
> As for your original post, here's what you said
> _"I know there is insurance and other fees involved but a bad bite(i know there is no such thing as a good one lol) is going to cost stupid money around the 30k mark for 15 or so vials. Would that 30k not be better spent on Cancer Research? After all its not essential to keep HOT's."_
> ...


Im not ducking out dude.....its just pis*ing me off now. Im also not backed into a corner. I wasnt aware(my bad) that the price of $1937.50 was for 2 vials thought it was for 1. so lets cut it down to 13k ish for a bad bite yeah? That still doesnt change my mind of where id rather see the money go!
I dont see how my argument is ill thought out? I simply think the anti-venom money would be better spent elsewhere......i do not have all the stats and figures but neither has anyone else......the only thing anyone has quoted is the price of CroFab polyvalent antivenin which was by you.
This is not the only thing in the NHS i dont agree with...smack heads and sex changes also appaul me


----------



## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

Declan123 said:


> FFS, whats with the arguing and bickering....
> 
> If somone said Anti-Venom costs a tenner.... you wouldnt be moaning now
> 
> ...


Its a discussion! Not a argument! and i am 12:whistling2:


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## daz992 (Aug 14, 2008)

I dont think anybody take pics , they more likely running to the hospital


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

rc10andy said:


> With the 2% quote...i was just trying to show the extremes between the chance of dying by a non-venamous bite and the chance of dying by a venamous bite.


Funny thing is, I can find more cited cases where people have been killed by their pet constrictors than I can where people have been killed by their pet venomous snakes in the 'States. Over here, nobody's been killed by a pet snake at all.


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

rc10andy said:


> Its a discussion! Not a argument! and i am 12:whistling2:



lol, its just another thread that will get locked again

All because someone found out the real price for Anti-Venom.... 




Ohhh, so thats were all the moneys going in the credit crunch :whistling2:


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

rc10andy said:


> Im not ducking out dude.....its just pis*ing me off now. Im also not backed into a corner. I wasnt aware(my bad) that the price of $1937.50 was for 2 vials thought it was for 1. so lets cut it down to 13k ish for a bad bite yeah? That still doesnt change my mind of where id rather see the money go!
> I dont see how my argument is ill thought out? I simply think the anti-venom money would be better spent elsewhere......i do not have all the stats and figures but neither has anyone else......the only thing anyone has quoted is the price of CroFab polyvalent antivenin which was by you.
> This is not the only thing in the NHS i dont agree with...smack heads and sex changes also appaul me


$1,937.50 doesn't equate to anything near £13k.

What you think on the subject is irrelevant really as people with common sense and decency obviously think it's money well spent on saving peoples lives.

People who own DWA animals pay tax/NI etc, so that makes them just as entitled to getting anti venom to save their life as it does you to get a course of expensive treatment to save your life if you developed a condition.

One fun thing to think about though, your out walking, you get bitten by a venomous snake, you get admitted to hospital, but obviously you decline the anti venom right?


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

Declan123 said:


> lol, its just another thread that will get locked again
> 
> All because someone found out the real price for Anti-Venom....
> 
> ...


 Why will the thread get locked? Theres no abuse being banded about?

And for the record i knew the price of anti-venom was crazy high but i didnt know the exact price.


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

rc10andy said:


> And for the record i knew the price of anti-venom was crazy high but i didnt know the exact price.


I aint on about you, im on about Voodoomoooman or whatever his name is

Saying People deserve to be bitten?


Fagnut IMO


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

Young_Gun said:


> $1,937.50 doesn't equate to anything near £13k.
> 
> What you think on the subject is irrelevant really as people with common sense and decency obviously think it's money well spent on saving peoples lives.
> 
> ...


 Sorry i automatically pressed the £ sign habit!!! I know it was in $.

And also on your last point, in a previous post i said about keeping HOTS as a hobby....not living with HOTs around you!


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Treating a VERY rare bite, for a few grand is but a tiny drop in the ocean. In relation to the millions, maybe billions of tax payers money that goes into treating every other accident or ailment. Its all about perspective. Making venomous keepers pay is not going to even dent the tax money one bit. Stopping the pissheads falling over, beating each other up, or needing their stomach pumped would be a far more worthwhile, money saving initiative!


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

rc10andy said:


> Sorry i automatically pressed the £ sign habit!!! I know it was in $.
> 
> And also on your last point, in a previous post i said about keeping HOTS as a hobby....not living with HOTs around you!


 Hold on a minute i never put the £ sign!!!: victory:


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

rc10andy said:


> Sorry i automatically pressed the £ sign habit!!! I know it was in $.
> 
> And also on your last point, in a previous post i said about keeping HOTS as a hobby....not living with HOTs around you!


It's nowhere near $13k either though.

I echo what Crow said, it's idiotic to try and justify letting people die, whether it is from a pet animal or not.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

rc10andy said:


> Normally when i sign off threads i dont go back on them but cos i think this subject is interesting ill give you my opinion.
> 
> If you are willing to go back to my original point i was trying to make without being sidetracked you will see my argument is that anti-venom money should be used to treat cancer suffers and if a hot is what you want to keep then you should be made to buy and hold your own anti-venom if needed! If you do not have the money for it then tough!
> Cancer can be avoided but it would be so so difficult. My personal opinion is that it cannot be avoided, as for a venamous snake bite in the UK it is so so so easy to avoid. Am i wrong?
> ...


 

I understand your point (and that is is your opinion and you're entitled to it) but I simply can not understand how you think that keeping HOTs is anymore or less justified than any other high risk activity. Making HOT keepers keep their own stock of antivenom would be totally pointless - they can't administer it themselves, and are not allowed to take their own drugs into hospitals. It also has a finite shelf life and is a controlled substance.

Taking your arguement to it's logical conclusion, every football player (even weekend 'down the park' footie players) should have their own physio incase they twist an ankle and need long term treatment, they need their own ambulance in case of serious injury (cracked skull etc), their own personal trainer and nutritionist in case their life choices lead to a heart attack on the pitch......

Same goes for rollerblading etc.

The point is that all treatment has a heirarchy (who wouldn't say that the child leukemia sufferer requiring the 20K worth of drugs is 'more worthy' than the twenty year old heroin addict that needs 20K worth of methedone) My point (and most other peoples) is that yes, some cases are more or less 'worthy', but you simply can not pick two things
(hot keeping and cancer suffering) and say one is wrong because the other is more deserving of the money. If you do, you have to justify EVERY SINGLE PENNY spent by the NHS, rank them in order of 'worthiness' (and whose opinion of worthiness would you agree with) and then find your own line in the sand. 

Obviously, everybody would be able to take two things and rank them as more or less worthy of the money available, but you can not possibly say that the less 'worthy' CAN'T have the money (or is wrong because they do), unless all other pursuits/injuries/illnesses etc are placed into the mix and then not given the money either.

I dare say that if you end up in hospital with sclorosis of the liver due to years of casual drinking, you and your family would want every penny available spent saving your life and blow the old guy in the nursing home who never drank a drop of alcohol, paid his taxes for 60 years, and has degenerative Altziemers..


Just my opinion

Cheers

Andy


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

Young_Gun said:


> It's nowhere near $13k either though.
> 
> I echo what Crow said, it's idiotic to try and justify letting people die, whether it is from a pet animal or not.


 If a bad bite needs about 15 vials and its just under 2k for 2 vials. and i did say a bad bite earlier.: victory:


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

rc10andy said:


> If a bad bite needs about 15 vials and its just under 2k for 2 vials. and i did say a bad bite earlier.: victory:


Still failing to see your point why there is a value on a persons life?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

rc10andy said:


> If a bad bite needs about 15 vials and its just under 2k for 2 vials. and i did say a bad bite earlier.: victory:


Fifteen vials at £1,000 per two vials = eight sets of two vials. £8,000 give or take...

Of course you don't always get bad bites either - I didn't require ANY antivenin after stepping on a rattlesnake.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Declan123 said:


> FFS, whats with the arguing and bickering....
> 
> If somone said Anti-Venom costs a tenner.... you wouldnt be moaning now
> 
> ...


 

Forums = discussion boards.

How is this *discussion* any more or less valid a use of internet space than the 'look at my new snake' thread.

No-one is making you read it.


Cheers

Andy

p.s. nothing personal but I truely resent the remark about acting like twelve years olds for many reasons, even if you are on 'my side'


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

bothrops said:


> I understand your point (and that is is your opinion and you're entitled to it) but I simply can not understand how you think that keeping HOTs is anymore or less justified than any other high risk activity. Making HOT keepers keep their own stock of antivenom would be totally pointless - they can't administer it themselves, and are not allowed to take their own drugs into hospitals. It also has a finite shelf life and is a controlled substance.
> 
> Taking your arguement to it's logical conclusion, every football player (even weekend 'down the park' footie players) should have their own physio incase they twist an ankle and need long term treatment, they need their own ambulance in case of serious injury (cracked skull etc), their own personal trainer and nutritionist in case their life choices lead to a heart attack on the pitch......
> 
> ...


 I see exactly what you are saying and to be honest this could go on forever and a day. Id class football and that sort of stuff as a normal activity. On the other hand i class keeping venamous reptiles a bit daft once again my opinion. Other high risk activitys like racing driving is part or human nature to compete ect.....

But, your reply is the 1st one to change my opinion on this subject,

i now think you should have to pay the money back in installments rather than keep your own AV stock!:lol2:


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> Fifteen vials at £1,000 per two vials = eight sets of two vials. £8,000 give or take...
> 
> Of course you don't always get bad bites either - I didn't require ANY antivenin after stepping on a rattlesnake.


 Was the rattlesnake in the wild?


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

Young_Gun said:


> Still failing to see your point why there is a value on a persons life?


Im not putting a value on a persons life am i?


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

wulfrun said:


> I'm over weight but I've not been to see a doctor in years except for holiday jabs which I paid for. Are you saying that I should not get treatment if i did become ill. I've paid my tax and NI for over 30 years and not had that much out of it. I don't smoke or drink i've driven a car for the last 32 years and never had an accident.


no im questioning his logic, and saying that everyone has the right to medical care.: victory:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

rc10andy said:


> I see exactly what you are saying and to be honest this could go on forever and a day. Id class football and that sort of stuff as a normal activity. On the other hand i class keeping venamous reptiles a bit daft once again my opinion. Other high risk activitys like racing driving is part or human nature to compete ect.....


What about horse riding? Another dangerous activity - it screwed up my knees pretty bad when I fell off inside a riding school arena... but is that a "normal" activity or is that an "extreme sport" ?



rc10andy said:


> Was the rattlesnake in the wild?


Yes, it was a wild rattlesnake, and I wasn't watching where I was putting my feet well enough to realise I'd either step on him or so close as to make no nevermind. 

Why would a captive snake be any more likely to give a "bad" bite than a wild animal that's actually physically being ATTACKED (as far as it can tell) ?


----------



## Merve (Sep 6, 2008)

I was once bitten on the shoulder by a horse whilst learning to ride.. 

I have also been bitten by the following (in rough date order from 1981 - now)

Guinea Pig
Rabbit
Cat
Another cat
Mouse
Hamster
New forest poney (ow!)
Horse
Cow
Squirrel
Red eared slider turtle
King charles spaniel
Whippet (yes really)
A person (yes, really)
More hamsters
Another rabbit

And lastly.. one small nip from a baby boa who got freaked by something.


Ugh, i tell you what else is dangerous, the smell of my dogs bum tonight. She should be DWA for that bum alone! 

:lol2:


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> What about horse riding? Another dangerous activity - it screwed up my knees pretty bad when I fell off inside a riding school arena... but is that a "normal" activity or is that an "extreme sport" ?
> 
> 
> Yes, it was a wild rattlesnake, and I wasn't watching where I was putting my feet well enough to realise I'd either step on him or so close as to make no nevermind.
> ...


You could split hairs on what ppl class as a dangerous hobby/activity.....but lets face it there is not many hobbys more life threatening than keeping hots although there probably is some.

I didnt say anything about a wild animal injecting more venom than that of a cb one....i just wondered thats all.


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## crouchy (Jan 14, 2008)

It should by now be obvious that voodooboy and rc10andy are very narrow minded and will not back down after 13 pages of debate.

Rc's original argument that the 30k (now £8k) would be better spent on cancer research than on antivenom for someone that got bit. As other have said why is a cancer suffers life worth more than a hot keeper? Although i do see where he is coming from with this one. However what about cancer that was brought on by 30 years of smoking 20 a day. I have no sympathy if a person brought it on themselves. But Cancer research isnt the only other thing that NHS money is spent on and his trick of comparing the 2 is a simple way of trying to make people feel bad because everyone should feel sorry for cancer patients.

He also wont admit that everyone takes risks in their life that arent necassary. Riding bikes isnt necassary, boxing isnt, smoking isnt, drinking isnt, and for most people neither is driving. Yet all these carry risks and if an accident does occur is he saying they should pay too? no he isnt

Another argument he put forward was that football has risks but is a usual activity. Does that mean that if keeping venomous was an everyday hobby then the costs would be justified? again no

Hot keepers try their very hardest to not get bitten just as motorbike riders try not to fall off. Both require insurance and a licence so i dont see how you can justify why 1 should be treated free and the other shouldnt.

He has no experience with hot keepers or the enormous amounts of research and protcols that go into keeping hots. Also he seemed to ignore the comment about his hognose. They are mildly venomous so does he have any protocols incase he or any of his family goes into shock after a hoggie bite. I guess not.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

Did you all miss my post on the guys who work with these animals.....
It's their job...... 
And if AV has a shelf life, and it's going out of date in a few days time, why not give it to a hobbiest...... Effectively it's free as they would of chucked it away in a couple of days anyway......


----------



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

rc10andy said:


> You could split hairs on what ppl class as a dangerous hobby/activity.....but lets face it there is not many hobbys more life threatening than keeping hots although there probably is some.
> 
> I didnt say anything about a wild animal injecting more venom than that of a cb one....i just wondered thats all.


 
That the whole point - many hot keepers would argue (and I would agree) that there are hundreds of activities and hobbies that are far more life threatening. 

The very fact that you need to gain a license to keep them means that you have to prove you have a reasonable compitancy and herpetology. You have to prove knowledge and skill and only then do you get granted the license (that you pay for).

The point is you are failing to see that the worst case scenario DOES NOT equal the level of threat. The more risk involved, the more skill and training required to avoid said risks. Crash helmets, seat belts, training, kevlar back protectors, snake hooks, experience, knowledge etc are all there to reduce risk. Therefore a good hot keeper is no more inherently 'risky' than crossing the road. A mistake could kill you, you assess that risk and act accordingly.

You see keeping hots from the point of view of 'worst case scenario = likely event', whereas you don't think about all the precautions taken by the hot keeper to reduce that risk. When you think about crossing the road (something you have experience of) you percieve the risk to be less as you know all the precautions you take (looking both ways, mentally calculating speed of approaching vehicles and assessing risk of them reaching you before you are across etc etc). The end result of a mistake in either activity could be death but your perception of the risk is altered by your own personal experiences.

Cheers

Andy


----------



## crouchy (Jan 14, 2008)

SW-morelia said:


> Did you all miss my post on the guys who work with these animals.....
> It's their job......
> And if AV has a shelf life, and it's going out of date in a few days time, why not give it to a hobbiest...... Effectively it's free as they would of chucked it away in a couple of days anyway......


I saw the post buts its not true so i ignored it. Even if the antivenom is near the end of its life the NHS has to pay for it. They dont make it themselves. And its not like at asda when milk is nearly at the BB date


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## paraman (Oct 27, 2007)

This thread is like a fight between two one legged men in an arse kicking contest. Not really getting anywhere.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

crouchy said:


> I saw the post buts its not true so i ignored it. Even if the antivenom is near the end of its life the NHS has to pay for it. They dont make it themselves. And its not like at asda when milk is nearly at the BB date


 I only added the free bit to get a reaction... It seems you have to make radical statements to get a reply on here... My OP was the fact that people work with these animals so AV use is paramount to them so why not practice on the unfortunate hobbiest


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

bothrops said:


> The point is you are failing to see that the worst case scenario DOES NOT equal the level of threat.


Exactly. Karate probably seriously hurts and/or kills fewer people per year than, say, dog ownership ... but a worst-case scenario happened to my dad, who broke his back doing Karate but never got hurt owning dogs.



> You see keeping hots from the point of view of 'worst case scenario = likely event', whereas you don't think about all the precautions taken by the hot keeper to reduce that risk. When you think about crossing the road (something you have experience of) you percieve the risk to be less as you know all the precautions you take (looking both ways, mentally calculating speed of approaching vehicles and assessing risk of them reaching you before you are across etc etc). The end result of a mistake in either activity could be death but your perception of the risk is altered by your own personal experiences.


And I've come a lot closer to being pasted across the road by a speeding Mini... I consider cars by far more dangerous to the average Joe than a venomous snake. There's a lot more of 'em and they sure aren't behind glass in common practice! Maybe I have a slightly biased view on venomous bites (given I essentially got away with mine unscathed - and given I'd been hiking alone three miles up a canyon at the time it could have been much worse than it was) ... but I believe that with reasonable precautions taken to ensure that people in general practice do NOT come in contact with their venomous charges in such a way as to risk being bitten ... the car's MUCH worse.


----------



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

paraman said:


> This thread is like a fight between two one legged men in an arse kicking contest. Not really getting anywhere.


Yet you're interested enough not only to read it, but post a completely useless comment?!

As said before, if you have nothing to contribute, nobody is forcing you to read it.:whip:


----------



## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

crouchy said:


> It should by now be obvious that voodooboy and rc10andy are very narrow minded and will not back down after 13 pages of debate.
> 
> Rc's original argument that the 30k (now £8k) would be better spent on cancer research than on antivenom for someone that got bit. As other have said why is a cancer suffers life worth more than a hot keeper? Although i do see where he is coming from with this one. However what about cancer that was brought on by 30 years of smoking 20 a day. I have no sympathy if a person brought it on themselves. But Cancer research isnt the only other thing that NHS money is spent on and his trick of comparing the 2 is a simple way of trying to make people feel bad because everyone should feel sorry for cancer patients.
> 
> ...


 He didnt see the comment about his Hoggies, did he? Talking of Hoggies is plain stupid! Hoggies r also not DWA! and just for the record i have 25 viels of Sella sat in my garage if one bites me!!

Please do not class me same as Voodooboy....i havent been all abusive about it have i?
As for the narrow mindedness, nope i have understood what ppl have said, i accept that is their opinion and i dont often ask them to explain themselves.....i have been answering the barrage of questions ppl have been firing at me about my own personal views. If someone has a differing opinion to me i dont really care all too much but i like to explain my thoughts and ideas!

To be honest i personally think, anyone who likens riding a bike, driving a car or motorbike with keeping a Venamous snakes is very very narrow minded.....but ill explain what i mean. 
Cars are not totally essential BUT they do help emmensely in everyday life, as does a Bike with or without a motor.
Football is recreational as is badminton or even bowls.....risk is involved but i wouldnt say nearly as much as dealing with a HOT.

What does a HOT bring to someones life, can you ride one to work? Can u use one to do the gardening?
They bring joy in some cases but imo the risks outweigh the joy factor!


_'He has no experience with hot keepers or the enormous amounts of research and protcols that go into keeping hots' - _how have you found this little snipet out btw?


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

bothrops said:


> That the whole point - many hot keepers would argue (and I would agree) that there are hundreds of activities and hobbies that are far more life threatening.
> 
> The very fact that you need to gain a license to keep them means that you have to prove you have a reasonable compitancy and herpetology. You have to prove knowledge and skill and only then do you get granted the license (that you pay for).
> 
> ...


You put up a very good point with that and one that has got me thinking, i am thinking of the worst case scenario, but is there a better case scenaio with a venamous reptile, maybe a dry bite. IMO getting bit by a HOT is always going to end up worst case .....


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

rc10andy said:


> Talking of Hoggies is plain stupid! Hoggies r also not DWA! and just for the record i have 25 viels of Sella sat in my garage if one bites me!!


What's Sella?

As for "but they're not on the DWA" ... neither are wasps and bees, but people still die of stings. Not being on the list doesn't make them less dangerous to someone who is going to suffer anaphylactic shock as a reaction to their bite.

I don't know if I react to hognose bites... so the way I "handle" my hognose is done in such a way as not to get bitten. I treat him as the mildly venomous snake he actually is.



> What does a HOT bring to someones life, can you ride one to work? Can u use one to do the gardening?
> They bring joy in some cases but imo the risks outweigh the joy factor!


You can't ride a pint of bitter to work - nor can you mow the lawn with a cigarette. People still choose to take THOSE risks too.

And I don't see that getting 'faced on beer is "joy outweighing the risk" either... because I don't "get" drinking. But I do "grok" the reason people might want to keep hots!

As for "less than worst case" scenarios when keeping hots... well, as I said, I've been bitten (and my dad came a lot closer to getting killed once - he climbed up a hill and was climbing up a rock, put his hand next to one rattler, leaped backwards and nearly landed on a second one, leaped back again and found the third rattler that he'd missed on his way up... and we were three hours' drive from the nearest hospital at that point) and it was a "best case bite scenario" but not a 'best case owner screwed up" scenario.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

How about down hill mountain biking..... Still a bike and still leisure but taken to extreme....
Thats a normal sport for some and an un necessary risk to others..... But you wouldn't stop people doing it... Just as horse jumping is an extreme form of horse riding...


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

SW-morelia said:


> How about down hill mountain biking..... Still a bike and still leisure but taken to extreme....
> Thats a normal sport for some and an un necessary risk to others..... But you wouldn't stop people doing it... Just as horse jumping is an extreme form of horse riding...


Absolutely. Been there, done that - I loved mountain biking/hiking... and for that matter, if I HADN'T screwed up my knees falling off the horse, I would probably have learned to jump too.


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> What's Sella?
> 
> 
> As for "but they're not on the DWA" ... neither are wasps and bees, but people still die of stings. Not being on the list doesn't make them less dangerous to someone who is going to suffer anaphylactic shock as a reaction to their bite.
> ...


Is the Stella comment serious?

To be totally honest, i am covering old ground here. Although this debate has changed exactly what i think my overall opinion hasnt changed!

You cant ride a pint of bitter to work no......but these r luxuries that make a hard life slightly easier at times......my point with that is how does a hot make life any easier?


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

Don't you get pleasure from your animals then? We keep venomous and get lots of pleasure from them! You don't have to be kicking a ball around a field or cycling down the road to make life easier.


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

glidergirl said:


> Don't you get pleasure from your animals then? We keep venomous and get lots of pleasure from them! You don't have to be kicking a ball around a field or cycling down the road to make life easier.


 Thats exactly it........well done top post!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

rc10andy said:


> Is the Stella comment serious?
> 
> To be totally honest, i am covering old ground here. Although this debate has changed exactly what i think my overall opinion hasnt changed!
> 
> You cant ride a pint of bitter to work no......but these r luxuries that make a hard life slightly easier at times......my point with that is how does a hot make life any easier?


Oh, STELLA, not "Sella" (which I thought could have been some sort of antihistamine treatment for anaphylactic shock that I wasn't aware of) ... yes, it was a serious question because it didn't occur to me that your post had missed a T out of a brand name of beer as a "treatment" for a potentially fatal reaction to a hognose bite.

No, I wouldn't use alcohol as a treatment for anaphylactic shock.

Why would a venomous snake need to make life "easier"? Alcohol sure wouldn't make my life "easier" (in fact, after the pancreas injury, I'm not sure I'm supposed to drink alcohol at all... it can cause a flareup of the inflammation that caused me so much pain before) ... it'd just make me sick and likely to make stupid decisions. 

However, having the pleasure of owning my reptiles (whether or not they're venomous) DOES make my life easier - and if my dream reptile was something that was DWA venomous, then yes, having that animal (although it might add extra work) might make my life more worth living. Certainly my existing reptiles make my life more fulfilling.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

rc10andy said:


> You put up a very good point with that and one that has got me thinking, i am thinking of the worst case scenario, but is there a better case scenaio with a venamous reptile, maybe a dry bite. IMO getting bit by a HOT is always going to end up worst case .....


 
You took the analogy and missed the point. Getting bit = getting hit. Crossing the road = keeping hots.

IF you get hit, you may not die, if you get bit you may not die. If you keep hots you are unlikely to be bit (you understand the risks and take necessary precautions), if you cross the road you are unlikely to get hit (you understand the risks and take necessary precautions).

Cheers

Andy


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> Oh, STELLA, not "Sella" (which I thought could have been some sort of antihistamine treatment for anaphylactic shock that I wasn't aware of) ... yes, it was a serious question because it didn't occur to me that your post had missed a T out of a brand name of beer as a "treatment" for a potentially fatal reaction to a hognose bite.
> 
> No, I wouldn't use alcohol as a treatment for anaphylactic shock.
> 
> ...


Many apologies for the 'sella' thing......i never realised i missed the T OOoops:whistling2:

I wont go into anaphylactic shock, i fell off my motorbike when i was younger onto a wasps nest....had about 20 of the bloody things in my helmet! LOL. risks eh!

If owning a DWA is pleasureable to you then good luck and well done but id still make you pay for anti-venom if needed...(well i wont make anyone pay but you get what i mean)

And i enjoy my Reptiles immencely to.


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

bothrops said:


> You took the analogy and missed the point. Getting bit = getting hit. Crossing the road = keeping hots.
> 
> IF you get hit, you may not die, if you get bit you may not die. If you keep hots you are unlikely to be bit (you understand the risks and take necessary precautions), if you cross the road you are unlikely to get hit (you understand the risks and take necessary precautions).
> 
> ...


 I see what you r saying and how risks are involved in both keeping venamous snakes and crossing a road but i see crossing a road as a necessary risk......i ask you is keeping venamous snakes a neccessary risk?


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

rc10andy said:


> You could split hairs on what ppl class as a dangerous hobby/activity.....but lets face it there is not many hobbys more life threatening than keeping hots although there probably is some.
> 
> I didnt say anything about a wild animal injecting more venom than that of a cb one....i just wondered thats all.


Try this then


In 1998 there were over 850,000 sporting
accidents. For example:​❚​​​​​​​​​Football accidents account for 408,000 people
attending A&E​
❚​​​​​​​​​78,000 people had an accident playing rugby​
❚​​​​​​​​​31,000 people had an accident whilst
rollerskating, roller-blading or skateboarding​
❚​​​​​​​​​22,000 people had an accident playing cricket​
❚​​​​​​​​​18,000 people had an accident ice-skating​
❚​​​​​​​​​16,000 people had a swimming accident​
❚​​​​​​​​​15,000 had an accident playing hockey​
❚​​​​​​​​​9,000 people had an accident playing squash​
❚ 6,000 people had an accident playing tennis.

I don't have the figures for envenomation by privately kept animals, but I suspect it falls somewhat short of those figures above........Kind of p*sses all over keeping hots as a dangerous hobby doesn't it?

(source:http://www.hassandlass.org.uk/query/reports/1998.pdf)


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Try this then
> 
> 
> In 1998 there were over 850,000 sporting
> ...




Yeah p*sses all over it! Well done you! 

Let me tell u the 1st thing that popped into my head when i read that!-

If 10 people in the UK kept HOTS
and 10 people in the UK played tennis....and you had to guess which one would die 1st...who would you pick? They r all the same age....all perfectly healthy and have all taken the required precautions!

​


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Try this then
> 
> 
> In 1998 there were over 850,000 sporting
> ...



Also they r accidents....you CANNOT have a accident with a HOT!!​


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

If both groups were exactly the same in terms of age, skill, health etc, i would say that, sheer sh*it bad luck notwithstanding, there should be no reason why any of them would die. I'm going to do a bit of digging about and get hold of the figures for envenomations by privately owned snakes. I think you would be surprised as to how low they actually are, and if you were to dig a bit more, you'd find that virtually all of them will share the same causator as any other type of accident................doing something you shouldn't, or not doing something you should. You might do well to find a hot keeper local to you and impose on his/her good nature for a visit. I'd vouch that, with very, very few exceptions, you'd find a mature, sensible, some may say boring, person who is passionate about that aspect of the hobby and is almost anal about safety around their animals. As I think i said many, many pages ago, it's about risk management. You can eliminate all risks except sheer bad luck. You could be doing everything right and still get tagged, just as you could be driving safely to work , when you get creamed by "the other idiot"


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

rc10andy said:


> I see what you r saying and how risks are involved in both keeping venamous snakes and crossing a road but i see crossing a road as a necessary risk......i ask you is keeping venamous snakes a neccessary risk?


 
The crossing the road analogy was extreme to illustrate the point. It has already been stated many times that many people pursue various activities deemed by others to be 'unneccessary risks'. This includes things as everyday as 'cars' for some, and as unusual as 'keeping hots' for others. My point is that none is any more inherently dangourous than any other. Someone crossing the road without the necessary precautions (or horseriding, rock climbing, driving to work, playing football etc etc) is just as at risk as a hot keeper who doesn't. 

The point is ANYTHING can cause injury if proper procautions are not taken. The greater the risk, the greater the precautions needed.

It is the failure to take necessary precautions that should be penalised NOT the decision to pursue the risky activity.

i.e.
You can't penalise responsible hot keepers anymore than you can penalise (or not) idiot boy racers, sensible horse riders, base jumpers, irresponsible dog owners, drug addicts etc to whom 'accidents' happen.

Cheers

Andy


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## samroyal2 (Oct 8, 2006)

rc10andy said:


> Yeah p*sses all over it! Well done you!
> 
> Let me tell u the 1st thing that popped into my head when i read that!-
> 
> ...


You make it sound as if people who keeps hots are un prepeared they to would take every precaution possible to not get bit or even risk it and are fully aware of the potential hazard.

you keep saying about people should pay for the anti venim if there bit so what about any other hobby that people take part in like whats meantioned in the post above quoteing those stats should they all pay for there own treatment??

What about people that drink, smoke take drugs should they all pay for there treatment all becasue its somthing they choose to do just like keeping hots??

seem to have quite a negative atitude to keeping hots when its all included in the same hobby that you yourself take part in. The only difference is the potential hazard with hots but then more measures are taken to prevent such hazards.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

rc10andy said:


> I wont go into anaphylactic shock, i fell off my motorbike when i was younger onto a wasps nest....had about 20 of the bloody things in my helmet! LOL. risks eh!


Guess you're not familiar with the mechanics of sensitisation, then?

I used to love figs. I could eat fig bars until they came out my ears. I also love peaches, mango, passionfruit and papaya. And I ate that sort of thing all the time. I remember climbing the trees in my back garden and eating peaches, nectarines and apricots straight off the tree. 

Now, all those fruits have one thing in common... they're sources of latex, particularly in the skins. And strangely enough, I discovered I had a reaction to latex after having had surgery (undoubtedly from surgeons wearing latex gloves). It started off as mild irritation if latex touched mucous membranes - and has since gotten worse. 

I discovered how much worse when I had a raw fig for dessert and my tongue swelled so badly it caused me problems breathing. Now I can't eat peaches, papaya or passionfruit either; mangos I have to very carefully remove every scrap of skin. And latex gloves/etc are right out - they make my hands burn.

Getting stung by wasps on one occasion and not having a reaction just means you didn't react that time. It doesn't mean you won't react to wasps some other time - nor does it mean you won't react to hognose venom, which isn't the same stuff. 



> If owning a DWA is pleasureable to you then good luck and well done but id still make you pay for anti-venom if needed...(well i wont make anyone pay but you get what i mean)


Fair enough, I'll pay for my antivenin if you pay for your liver transplant.



rc10andy said:


> I see what you r saying and how risks are involved in both keeping venamous snakes and crossing a road but i see crossing a road as a necessary risk......i ask you is keeping venamous snakes a neccessary risk?


Ok, how about a more sensible comparison. I agree, people need to cross the road in their lives.
But people do not need to drink alcohol.
Drinking alcohol in moderation is like keeping hots.
Binge-drinking is like being bitten by a hot.

Drinking in moderation, if it is carefully managed and you don't act like a total eejit, can be done without excessive risk to yourself AND others; it can enrich your life (if you're the sort of person who likes that sort of thing) and make life a better place to be.

Keeping hots responsibly, if carefully managed, and you don't act like a total eejit, can be done without excessive risk to yourself and others; it can enrich your life (if you're the sort of person who likes that sort of thing) and make life a better place to be.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

rc10andy said:


> Also they r accidents....you CANNOT have a accident with a HOT!!
> [/left]


Of course you bloody can, are you suggesting that envenomations are anything but accidents?

definition of accident:
1.an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents. 

2.any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan or cause. 

To suggest that any Hot keeper would plan to get bitten, or expect it or intend to get bitten is complete moose sh*t and really, really knocks your credibility as a serious, informed debater


C-, could do better, go to the back of the class


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> Guess you're not familiar with the mechanics of sensitisation, then?
> 
> I used to love figs. I could eat fig bars until they came out my ears. I also love peaches, mango, passionfruit and papaya. And I ate that sort of thing all the time. I remember climbing the trees in my back garden and eating peaches, nectarines and apricots straight off the tree.
> 
> ...


Can i just ask where you have got this idea the im frickin George Best from? I like a few beer when the footys on not a bottle of Whisky at 8am.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

rc10andy said:


> Can i just ask where you have got this idea the im frickin George Best from? I like a few beer when the footys on not a bottle of Whisky at 8am.


And hot keepers aren't all Austin Stevens, getting bit left and right, either  

As I said, drinking in moderation = keeping hots. It can be done safely and with minimal risk.
Drinking to excess = handling hots irresponsibly. And that can't be done safely.


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Of course you bloody can, are you suggesting that envenomations are anything but accidents?
> 
> definition of accident:
> 1.an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents.
> ...


When have i ever suggested a Hots keeper plans to get bitten? By saying that you cant have an accident? lol.....mis interpreted what i meant there! 
Also im not really worried about my Credibility to a bunch of reptile keeper i dont know!
Obviously you can have an accident yes....but is getting bit by a Mamba like twisting a ankle? I think not!


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

Is getting your leg ripped off in a car accident like spraining an ankle? :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

rc10andy said:


> When have i ever suggested a Hots keeper plans to get bitten? By saying that you cant have an accident? lol.....mis interpreted what i meant there!
> Also im not really worried about my Credibility to a bunch of reptile keeper i dont know!
> Obviously you can have an accident yes....but is getting bit by a Mamba like twisting a ankle? I think not!


I never compared a mamba bite to a twisted ankle and frankly it's ridiculous to do so , however, inasmuch as the fact that you didn't plan for it to happen........yes, it's exactly the same, it's only the potential end result that differs. Although applying your rather odd logic, how about if the person who twisted their ankle fell into the path of an oncoming vehicle as a result? Stupid, I know, but hey, I didn't start it:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Humour me, explain exactly what you meant when you said

_"Also they r accidents....you CANNOT have a accident with a HOT!!"_

I may be thick, but incidents are either accidental or planned, if there's an inbetween stage, I haven't heard about it. So please, enlighten me


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

glidergirl said:


> Is getting your leg ripped off in a car accident like spraining an ankle? :Na_Na_Na_Na:


 No thats unlucky:Na_Na_Na_Na:

You r just posting stuff but not reading what else ive put if you did read what else ive put you had no need to post!:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> I never compared a mamba bite to a twisted ankle and frankly it's ridiculous to do so , however, inasmuch as the fact that you didn't plan for it to happen........yes, it's exactly the same, it's only the potential end result that differs. Although applying your rather odd logic, how about if the person who twisted their ankle fell into the path of an oncoming vehicle as a result? Stupid, I know, but hey, I didn't start it:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> Humour me, explain exactly what you meant when you said
> 
> ...


 You may well be......

Im sorry if what i type isnt coming across as i mean it......obviously how you have read that statement is not how i intended it! Its hard to type things how you intend them because typing is all 1 dimentional!

And you sir are really starting to get on my tits cos ur taking what i say out of context and twisting it to how i dont mean it! If you would care to pm me i will gladly forward my mobile number so you can hear what i say come out my mouth and not on a computer screen.


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

Anyways guys....thanks for the debate...its been..erm... lovely! 

Im off to envenamate my self with a Stella or 2 and play on Vegas!

Good luck with all your herps in the future.....and just so ya know....all this is personal opinion and nothing personal towards any of you guys!

Cheers
Andy:2thumb:


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## VoodooWitchDoctor (Sep 3, 2008)

pasty said:


> The 3rd party is the bit that covers medical etc... Everything else is toppings so makes no difference.
> 
> People with Pets on the DWA list have to have the appropriate licence and to get that you have to have specialist insurance which covers public liability. i believe that up to 1 million pounds but could have gone up.
> So should you have an "accident" and get bitten then you are covered through your insurance premiums.
> ...


If that fact was made clear earlier I wouldn't have made any comments what so ever......Cheers for making it more clear to me PASTY, as I am now more knowledgable on this matter now.

Certain peoples should have clarified that much earlier, but obliously it was knowledge they never obtained them selves.

I apoligise if I hurt anybodies feeling!:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

rc10andy said:


> You may well be......
> 
> Im sorry if what i type isnt coming across as i mean it......obviously how you have read that statement is not how i intended it! Its hard to type things how you intend them because typing is all 1 dimentional!
> 
> And you sir are really starting to get on my tits cos ur taking what i say out of context and twisting it to how i dont mean it! If you would care to pm me i will gladly forward my mobile number so you can hear what i say come out my mouth and not on a computer screen.


Sorry Andy, but it's very difficult to mistake a short sentence, you said "You CANNOT have a (sic) accident with a Hot."

I don't need to phone you, the only difference between what you write and what you say are the inflections you place on various words to add emotional depth.
It should be easy enough to explain what you meant, you accept that I may well be thick, (rest assured, I am far from thick) but fail to explain your statement clearly and unambiguously. 
As for getting on your tits...............well that's your problem, it's a free forum .......if you can't hack the pace or are getting p*ssed off with someone, leave the thread and without your fuel, it'll soon fizzle out. Failing that, step up to the plate and explain *exactly* what you meant by that statement.


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Sorry Andy, but it's very difficult to mistake a short sentence, you said "You CANNOT have a (sic) accident with a Hot."
> 
> I don't need to phone you, the only difference between what you write and what you say are the inflections you place on various words to add emotional depth.
> It should be easy enough to explain what you meant, you accept that I may well be thick, (rest assured, I am far from thick) but fail to explain your statement clearly and unambiguously.
> As for getting on your tits...............well that's your problem, it's a free forum .......if you can't hack the pace or are getting p*ssed off with someone, leave the thread and without your fuel, it'll soon fizzle out. Failing that, step up to the plate and explain *exactly* what you meant by that statement.


I do accept that you may well be thick yes but I dunno....i dont care to be honest. You r not a concern of mine! If you say you are far from thick then well done....have a Blue Peter Badge!
Being inferior to you i find it difficult to add emotional depth to the text i type!

_'As for getting on your tits...............well that's your problem, it's a free forum .......if you can't hack the pace or are getting p*ssed off with someone, leave the thread and without your fuel, it'll soon fizzle out. Failing that, step up to the plate and explain *exactly* what you meant by that statement.':lol2: _ WOW how very gangster of you shoeshine! Im leaving the thread with my pride and dignity in tatters....how will i cope in life:blush:.

You seem like a very knowlegeable person and i really hope i bump into you sometime at a herp expo:whistling2:

As for the step up to the plate comment the same can be thrown back at you.....after all it is you that fails to respect other peoples opinions.......obviously you are right and that is all that matters:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:

If you didnt read in a earlier post on this forum, i said i could reel ya all in!!! If ya go against the norm on here it works a treat!

Cheers


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## DannyCRS (Jul 8, 2008)

People with venomous snakes has anyone seen a blue malaysian coral snake and are they nicer in real life than the pics like most things.


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

rc10andy said:


> *I also IMPO consider a non-venamos snake more appropriate to live in captivity that a venamous one. Pure and simpily because there is less chance of dying!


If you are bitten by a hot snake you have the opportunity to go to hospital and recieve treatment,get tagged in a feeding response by a large burm,retic or the like you dont have that option unless you can get away in the first place.So these 'non-venomous' snakes are so much safer?
There are safety protocols that people use when handling or dealing with giant pythons that keep people alive,just as there is with hots.
The difference is that those with hots have to prove that they are capable,any old fool with £100 in his pocket can risk lives with a giant snake.
None of your arguments hold up,and frankly you come across as someone who just doesn't like to be told they are wrong.


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

rc10andy said:


> You seem like a very knowlegeable person and i really hope i bump into you sometime at a herp expo:whistling2:


...and veiled threats just make you look 14 years old,and further distract from your one sided opinions.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Barry.M said:


> If you are bitten by a hot snake you have the opportunity to go to hospital and recieve treatment,get tagged in a feeding response by a large burm,retic or the like you dont have that option unless you can get away in the first place.So these 'non-venomous' snakes are so much safer?
> There are safety protocols that people use when handling or dealing with giant pythons that keep people alive,just as there is with hots.
> The difference is that those with hots have to prove that they are capable,any old fool with £100 in his pocket can risk lives with a giant snake.
> None of your arguments hold up,and frankly you come across as someone who just doesn't like to be told they are wrong.


Well said 

I'm in total agreement he does sound like fool!


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## paraman (Oct 27, 2007)

bothrops said:


> Yet you're interested enough not only to read it, but post a completely useless comment?!
> As said before, if you have nothing to contribute, nobody is forcing you to read it.:whip:[/quote
> 
> Its a free forum and within reason I can post what I wish. The statement holds true, its going round in circles and neither faction will back down despite all your attempts at mediation. Out of interest are you speaking about "hots" and risks from personal experience?


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

rc10andy said:


> I do accept that you may well be thick yes but I dunno....i dont care to be honest. You r not a concern of mine! If you say you are far from thick then well done....have a Blue Peter Badge!
> Being inferior to you i find it difficult to add emotional depth to the text i type!
> 
> _'As for getting on your tits...............well that's your problem, it's a free forum .......if you can't hack the pace or are getting p*ssed off with someone, leave the thread and without your fuel, it'll soon fizzle out. Failing that, step up to the plate and explain *exactly* what you meant by that statement.':lol2: _WOW how very gangster of you shoeshine! Im leaving the thread with my pride and dignity in tatters....how will i cope in life:blush:.
> ...


 
Final post on this: Not once have I said that I'm right, all I've done is point out the gaping holes and intellectual somersaults in your "argument"

You've obviously run out of steam as you've resorted to playground taunts, threats and insults and rounded off with the old chestnut of "I was only doing it to get you lot hooked"

If you're really that desperate to meet me, I'll be at a couple of the herp shows next year, would you like me to wear a red carnation and carry a copy of "The Sporting Times"? Although, if you're that lonely, I'd suggest one of the many "ahem" specialist sites that are allegedly on the wonderful Internet:whistling2:

Finally, If you'll read back, page 10 of this thread, you'll find this:

_"I respect your opinion, but think your argument was ill thought out and without foundation, but, that's just mine:whistling2:"_

So, I do respect your opinion, do try and keep up, there's a good chap: victory:


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## Magik (Jul 22, 2008)

This has been a very interesting read from both sides fighting there corner but as someone already said you cannot decide that one species is more suitable to captivity than others the keeping of hots is a calculated risk and for all those involved it is there risk to take they do not put other peoples lives in danger compared to the release of large constrictors that could do damage to the general public but some people consider them less risk than hots this is ridiculous the fact is that many members of the herping community keep and have access to dangerous animals whether it be a BCI or a Cobra the Potential of danger is there!Any species can do damage whether it me major or minimal they are all capable of doing damage

It's peoples personal choice to keep these animals in there home's and there work place's so its up to them to ensure that they do not get hurt by these animals BUT if they do get hurt by these animals they deserve to be treated without prejudice just as a drug addict or a car crash victim would

This is just my humble opinion of course and everybody is entitled to theirs


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## southwest vipers (Jun 29, 2008)

DannyCRS said:


> People with venomous snakes has anyone seen a blue malaysian coral snake and are they nicer in real life than the pics like most things.


I have got a malaysian blue coral snake, you may have seen pics on various websites. It is probably the only one in the UK, they are very poor captives having exacting husbandry requirements and they only eat snakes. They are also a bit fussy which snakes they will eat. Mine loves live cornsnakes which are bitten and consumed whilst still just about alive,but it will eat defrost if it is freshly frozen and doesn't smell. The pictures on the web were taken of it eating a stillborn albino wdb rattlesnake.


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

southwest vipers said:


> I have got a malaysian blue coral snake, you may have seen pics on various websites. It is probably the only one in the UK, they are very poor captives having exacting husbandry requirements and they only eat snakes. They are also a bit fussy which snakes they will eat. Mine loves live cornsnakes which are bitten and consumed whilst still just about alive,but it will eat defrost if it is freshly frozen and doesn't smell. The pictures on the web were taken of it eating a stillborn albino wdb rattlesnake.



Where do you get your feeder snakes from pal

cause buying corns could be quite costly all the time


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

paraman said:


> Its a free forum and within reason I can post what I wish. The statement holds true, its going round in circles and neither faction will back down despite all your attempts at mediation. Out of interest are you speaking about "hots" and risks from personal experience?


yes

cheers

Andy


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

interesting thread, as someone also who has been bitten, clearly i should have just died lol, the point is for me, either we have a health system which charges or we dont, lets look at the yanks, there system is all about insurance and money and there is estimated 50 million people who cant get treatment, great , personally i would rather stick to ours no matter why anyone requires treatment, either we treat on a equal basis or we dont, but there would be a alot more people than venomous keepers who would miss out.


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## southwest vipers (Jun 29, 2008)

Declan123 said:


> Where do you get your feeder snakes from pal
> 
> cause buying corns could be quite costly all the time


Ive had about 20/25 live deformed, stillborn cornsnakes and half a dozen stillborn wdb's donated for free to me from my local rep shop and a couple of private breeders.


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## ljkenny (Mar 5, 2007)

Oh, I can't take it anymore!

I read to page 8 and became far too excited to read any further.

Never, have I laughed out loud so much and been so angry, all in one thread!

There truly are some proper buffoons on this forum.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

I hope you haven't included me in that list? Naive I might be...........but hopefully not a buffoon


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## ljkenny (Mar 5, 2007)

stuartdouglas said:


> I hope you haven't included me in that list? Naive I might be...........but hopefully not a buffoon


 Not at all!

As far as I'm concerned you're one of the heroes in this thread.

When I said I laughed out loud at parts, they were mainly yours.

You didn't take offence when I called you naive did you?


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

ljkenny said:


> Oh, I can't take it anymore!
> 
> I read to page 8 and became far too excited to read any further.
> 
> ...


It's no wonder that more and more DWA keepers are avoiding the section these days is it? 

Buffoons - love it :2thumb:


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## ljkenny (Mar 5, 2007)

glidergirl said:


> It's no wonder that more and more DWA keepers are avoiding the section these days is it?
> 
> Buffoons - love it :2thumb:


No, it isn't!

Bearing in mind I only read up to page 8, hence can't vouch for pages greater than that; I must say, the venomous keepers on this forum have acted very  reputably.

Well done!

Now I've calmed down a little, I might try to read a little further.


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

I shouldn't bother, it's quite unbelievable at how blinkered some people are! Although it is amusing!

Lol - Woohoo, made it up to page 20!!!


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

ljkenny said:


> Not at all!
> 
> As far as I'm concerned you're one of the heroes in this thread.
> 
> ...


lol.......nooooooo not at all:lol2: bit of a dumb question to ask " how did these non-exportable snakes come to be for sale at this show" I was just shocked that there are dishonest people about...........:lol2:


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## ljkenny (Mar 5, 2007)

glidergirl said:


> I shouldn't bother, it's quite unbelievable at how blinkered some people are! Although it is amusing!
> 
> Lol - Woohoo, made it up to page 20!!!


I should have listened to you!

I made it up to here and to be honest, I'm less than pleased with some people's lack of reasoning capability, raw stupidity and shear arrogance, who insist on spouting unintuitive dribble about subjects they clearly have little or no knowledge about.

What I am pleased about, however, is the intellectual, clearly thought-out and knowledgeable responses to these dim-witted comments, which in all honesty just made them look moronic.



stuartdouglas said:


> lol.......nooooooo not at all:lol2: bit of a dumb question to ask " how did these non-exportable snakes come to be for sale at this show" I was just shocked that there are dishonest people about...........:lol2:


Good! 

I know, I was as shocked and disgusted as you were. 

(By the way, if you know anyone who can get Kinghorni, I'd be interested, lol!  )


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

ljkenny said:


> I should have listened to you!
> 
> I made it up to here and to be honest, I'm less than pleased with some people's lack of reasoning capability, raw stupidity and shear arrogance, who insist on spouting unintuitive dribble about subjects they clearly have little or no knowledge about.
> 
> ...


It's one thing to catch these animals and illegally exprt them. But the arrogance of openly displaying them at a show is staggering! CB is better, but you still have to wonder where the parents came from. TBH, it didn't do a lot for me, just a plain brown snake. Much preferred the female CB _polylepis_ Freddi Wallner had on his table. I was wearing him down on the price then gave up and got a pair of squam's:lol2:


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## ljkenny (Mar 5, 2007)

stuartdouglas said:


> It's one thing to catch these animals and illegally exprt them. But the arrogance of openly displaying them at a show is staggering! CB is better, but you still have to wonder where the parents came from. TBH, it didn't do a lot for me, just a plain brown snake. Much preferred the female CB polylepis Freddi Wallner had on his table. I was wearing him down on the price then gave up and got a pair of squam's:lol2:


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I understand it is, that once they've actually been exported you can't be prosecuted 

(unless of course there is evidence that YOU did the smuggling).

To be honest, I have no room to talk. I would happily take on some baby WC Kinghorni in a flash. Given the right price of course!

I thought those o.microlepidotus were stunning.

Oh yes, because d.polylepis' have so much in common with a.squam's, lol! 

Gorgeous litte things though - like it pretty cold too I hear!


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

As far as defra spoke to me once there in the uk, transport between the countries is fine as long as u have a reciept there not interested once there within the eu,


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## ljkenny (Mar 5, 2007)

leptophis said:


> As far as defra spoke to me once there in the uk, transport between the countries is fine as long as u have a reciept there not interested once there within the eu,


Cheers for that Pete.

A reciept? From whom?


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

ljkenny said:


> I should have listened to you!
> 
> I made it up to here and to be honest, I'm less than pleased with some people's lack of reasoning capability, raw stupidity and shear arrogance, who insist on spouting unintuitive dribble about subjects they clearly have little or no knowledge about.
> 
> What I am pleased about, however, is the intellectual, clearly thought-out and knowledgeable responses to these dim-witted comments, which in all honesty just made them look moronic.


just out of interest, which one am I?:whistling2:

cheers

Andy


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## ljkenny (Mar 5, 2007)

bothrops said:


> just out of interest, which one am I?:whistling2:
> 
> cheers
> 
> Andy


The fact that you have to ask must tell you something! 

I don't know, let me go check - Give me a few minutes.


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## ljkenny (Mar 5, 2007)

You seem to be on the right side of the fence at least.

Not sure what that little scuffle was about with Paraman, but hey!


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Me neither, had to go and check - think I had a slight issue with the analogy, thought I had at least a leg and a half plus a suitable prosthetic and was thus edging ahead slightly in said contest - I must have just been a little tetchy. No biggy, and definitely nothing personal against paraman.

Gotta love a good hearty debate!

Cheers

Andy


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## craig_mufc (Aug 30, 2008)

Peter wood said:


> Do u have to keep anti -venom at home and have u ever been tagged by them also n e pics of snakes and bites?


 
i like how the op said ^^^^ and yet no one has really answered his question lol made laugh it was quite intersting though listening to all of the arguments that were going on lol


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

craig_mufc said:


> i like how the op said ^^^^ and yet no one has really answered his question lol made laugh it was quite intersting though listening to all of the arguments that were going on lol


just to confirm....

you cannot keep anti-venom at home....its prescription only and needs to be mixed into fluids and put in a drip...


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