# Getting bitten by a venomous snake - then what ?



## Gomjaba (May 25, 2009)

I don't have any DWA animals nor do I want one. 
But one thing I am curious about.

Surely antivenom has a certain expirydate.. Now what happens if you do have a dangerous snake and you get bitten ? I am in Southend and I wouldn't even trust them to see a knife sticking in my head and would probably still ask me to take a seat ...(hospital there doesn't fill me with confidence) :whistling2:

This is probably a stupid question, but what do you do ? Or what do THEY do ? Or CAN they do ? 

Considering that sometimes time is somewhat important I wonder how good your chances are of survival considering that most DWA snakes aren't common in the UK - or in Europe for that matter ...

Sorry for the stupid question, :blush:


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## Zimey (Sep 28, 2008)

Someone on here will give you more of a detailed answer, but I would say ring an ambulance and give the the details of the bite , i.e the snake species


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## snakekeeper (Oct 29, 2008)

I personally would say dont get bitten! I wouldn't want to get bitten by my lot especially here in Greece.


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## MagicSqueak (Apr 9, 2010)

Right....i take it you are talking non native species.

If you are a venomous keeper then you will have a bite protocol which is a set of things you would follow if bitten...One of the things would be to remove the cage card from the snakes vivarium - you will need this for the hospital to treat you with the correct antivenom. The cage card would in the very least have the scientific name of the snake which will allow for the correct anti venom to be chosen. This anti venom would be flown or driven down from the nearest store of antivenom, there are a few places in the country that stock it - for instance LSTM in Liverpool. This along with advice from doctors from somewhere like LSTM would then would be given to the patient.

: victory:


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## snakekeeper (Oct 29, 2008)

MagicSqueak said:


> Right....i take it you are talking non native species.
> 
> If you are a venomous keeper then you will have a bite protocol which is a set of things you would follow if bitten...One of the things would be to remove the cage card from the snakes vivarium - you will need this for the hospital to treat you with the correct antivenom. The cage card would in the very least have the scientific name of the snake which will allow for the correct anti venom to be chosen. This anti venom would be flown or driven down from the nearest store of antivenom, there are a few places in the country that stock it - for instance LSTM in Liverpool. This along with advice from doctors from somewhere like LSTM would then would be given to the patient.
> 
> : victory:


Get bitten by a gila or beaded and you are bang out of luck when it comes to antivenom.


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## 50%man50%biscuit (Mar 17, 2009)

snakekeeper said:


> Get bitten by a gila or beaded and you are bang out of luck when it comes to antivenom.


True, but if you're slow or stupid enough to get bitten by either species then you are very unlikely to die, although you probably had it coming. I think the last reported death from a Gila was in the 1930's. Apparently the venom is designed to improve memory of pain, and shock from the pain is probably more likely to kill you than the actual venom. 

Anyone know how much black mamba anti-venin there is in Europe? Apparently not very much...

HMHB


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## jonny cichla (Apr 6, 2008)

Find a shadey spot under a tree!
As a corpse in the sun! only attracts flies!:2thumb:


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## MagicSqueak (Apr 9, 2010)

snakekeeper said:


> Get bitten by a gila or beaded and you are bang out of luck when it comes to antivenom.


Very few people die from a gila or beaded bite....they won't kill you, they just make you wish they had.


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## McCase (Feb 10, 2010)

as magic says, go to hospital and take details of the species you have been bitten by - you may need to impress upon the doctors the potential seriousness of a bite, particularly if it is from an elapid, even if you are not presenting with any symptoms at that time. You should be monitored for at least 24 hours.

There are two poison centres in the UK which stock a large number of antivenoms, one in London and one in Liverpool. Your hospital will contact the nearest poison centre and get antivenom sent and also contact the UK experts for treating snakebite who will advise your doctors over the phone on your treatment.

50% - off the top of my head I think the SAIMR polyvalent covers black mambas, im pretty sure that is stocked by the UK poison centres.


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## Gomjaba (May 25, 2009)

Thanks guys - and I agree - the main goal is not to get bitten in the first place 

I would be only worried that due to the shelf life of antivenom UK hostpitals aren't able to stock them and they would have to fly it in from overseas, wasting important time .. 

But if we do actually have at least two places here then good


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

Depending upon how long you expect it to be before you receive treatment it may be wise to apply some appropriate first aid. This will obviously depend on the species you have been bitten by. It is also wise to decide how you will travel to hospital, will you be driven in your own vehicle or call for an ambulance? It is likely that you will be taken more seriously if you arrive at hospital in an ambulance, but it may take longer to arrive. The key point is to make the decisions before you need to, ideally being well versed in what to do before you have any contact with venomous.

David.


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## Gomjaba (May 25, 2009)

DavidR said:


> Depending upon how long you expect it to be before you receive treatment it may be wise to apply some appropriate first aid. This will obviously depend on the species you have been bitten by. It is also wise to decide how you will travel to hospital, will you be driven in your own vehicle or call for an ambulance? It is likely that you will be taken more seriously if you arrive at hospital in an ambulance, but it may take longer to arrive. The key point is to make the decisions before you need to, ideally being well versed in what to do before you have any contact with venomous.
> 
> David.


Makes sense .. I am pretty sure "fear" is a good tool to make sure you covered all angles


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## STReptiles (Feb 6, 2009)

DavidR said:


> Depending upon how long you expect it to be before you receive treatment it may be wise to apply some appropriate first aid. This will obviously depend on the species you have been bitten by. It is also wise to decide how you will travel to hospital, will you be driven in your own vehicle or call for an ambulance? It is likely that you will be taken more seriously if you arrive at hospital in an ambulance, but it may take longer to arrive. The key point is to make the decisions before you need to, ideally being well versed in what to do before you have any contact with venomous.
> 
> David.


 TBH it would be probably quicker to get some one at hand to drive you there. not yourself obviously lol


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

My protocols are to take me to or got to not my local hospital but to Dudley Road hospital poisons unit in Birmingham, it would be a good idea to find if you have such a thing locally or reasonably near as they will be better preparred to deal with your case.


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## chulainn (Nov 29, 2009)

MagicSqueak said:


> Right....i take it you are talking non native species.
> 
> If you are a venomous keeper then you will have a bite protocol which is a set of things you would follow if bitten...One of the things would be to remove the cage card from the snakes vivarium - you will need this for the hospital to treat you with the correct antivenom. The cage card would in the very least have the scientific name of the snake which will allow for the correct anti venom to be chosen. This anti venom would be flown or driven down from the nearest store of antivenom, there are a few places in the country that stock it - for instance LSTM in Liverpool. This along with advice from doctors from somewhere like LSTM would then would be given to the patient.
> 
> : victory:


yeah many have a protocol and have deatails printed in case including species name size age however this is in theory after being tagged its a difrent story


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## stolensocks01 (Aug 27, 2010)

Can you keep anti-venom yourself in the uk like some guys in the US do?


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

stolensocks01 said:


> Can you keep anti-venom yourself in the uk like some guys in the US do?


Its extreamly expensive and limited shelf life also you need to be a trained physician to administer correctly. but you could keep an epi pen for some species incase of anaphalactic shock.


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## roddy mac (Dec 10, 2009)

leecb0 said:


> Its extreamly expensive and limited shelf life also you need to be a trained physician to administer correctly. but you could keep an epi pen for some species incase of anaphalactic shock.


 
if you tell your doctor what vemomus snakes your keeping some will give you a precription to get 1 epi pen just incase,


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## stolensocks01 (Aug 27, 2010)

leecb0 said:


> Its extreamly expensive and limited shelf life also you need to be a trained physician to administer correctly. but you could keep an epi pen for some species incase of anaphalactic shock.



Suppose it makes sense, the guys in the US i was refering to are people like Viperkeeper who talks about carrying Serum.Though i suppose he's more of business and research man so he would need all that stuff (probably tax deductable :lol2


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## scubamedic (Sep 7, 2010)

roddy mac said:


> if you tell your doctor what vemomus snakes your keeping some will give you a precription to get 1 epi pen just incase,


Not sure if im being a little slow here but why would you need an epi pen for a venomous snake bite?

My understanding is that it wouldnt work against venim. Only an anaphalaxis. 

Unless you mean if the antivenim administration causes an anaphalaxis but hopefully by this time you would be in a hospital, but then again it would be them giving it.


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## MagicSqueak (Apr 9, 2010)

scubamedic said:


> Not sure if im being a little slow here but why would you need an epi pen for a venomous snake bite?
> 
> My understanding is that it wouldnt work against venim. Only an anaphalaxis.
> 
> Unless you mean if the antivenim administration causes an anaphalaxis but hopefully by this time you would be in a hospital, but then again it would be them giving it.


Some people are allergic to certain venoms and as a result may go into anaphalactic shock and the epi pen may just save their life....


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## 17624 (May 1, 2008)

This may be a really stupid question but here goes....

If your unfortunate/silly enough to get bitten by a "hot" snake and need antivenom that gets brought to your nearest hospital from liverpool, would you then get a bill for the antivenom and bringing it to the hospital?

Jpster
:devil:


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

jpster said:


> This may be a really stupid question but here goes....
> 
> If your unfortunate/silly enough to get bitten by a "hot" snake and need antivenom that gets brought to your nearest hospital from liverpool, would you then get a bill for the antivenom and bringing it to the hospital?
> 
> ...



No not the first time... but, if you get bit to much the hospital will send you a letter asking for a contribution.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2011)

jpster said:


> This may be a really stupid question but here goes....
> 
> If your unfortunate/silly enough to get bitten by a "hot" snake and need antivenom that gets brought to your nearest hospital from liverpool, would you then get a bill for the antivenom and bringing it to the hospital?
> 
> ...


You couldnt get it there quicker in your rover lol


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## MDV1 (Nov 27, 2010)

scubamedic said:


> Not sure if im being a little slow here but why would you need an epi pen for a venomous snake bite?
> 
> My understanding is that it wouldnt work against venim. Only an anaphalaxis.
> 
> Unless you mean if the antivenim administration causes an anaphalaxis but hopefully by this time you would be in a hospital, but then again it would be them giving it.




Epi-pens do not counteract venomous bites, they counteract Anaphylaxis which can be a result of a venomous bite. In short, if Anaphylaxis kicks in, the use of an Epi pen will give you more time to get to hospital.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Thread cleaned.

If you have nothing nice to say - don't say it at all.


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## dunny1 (Feb 2, 2009)

u may go into anaphylaxis due to the bite. so epi pen is handy incase this happens. u would still need to get ur butt to the hospital though for antivenin.


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

The NHS has always kept stocks of antivenom both for our use and that of Private Keepers but it has always been an educated guess as to what antivenoms to stock. Antivenom is expensive so about 18 months ago we carried out a survey in order to determine exactly what species and numbers were being kept by Private Keepers. I already had a pretty good idea, but the results of the survey proved useful. 

Armed with this information we are able to ensure that the NHS stocks appropriate quantities and types of antivenoms to cover the various species being kept by Private Keepers.


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## Wandering (Jul 19, 2009)

I may be way out here but... with regard to epi-pens, in the less than likely event of anaphylaxis from a snake bite (can't be much more chance than a peanut allergy: approx 1.3% of the population), assuming that the first thing the casualty did was stick themselves with it, anaphylaxis or not, I would imagine that the adrenaline rush could cause more problems? 

Adrenaline increases your heartrate, wouldn't this be a negative if you were injected with a neurotoxin. Also, adrenaline constricts blood vessels, could this cause major problems if bitten by anyhting with cytotoxic venom...

Opinions?


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## MDV1 (Nov 27, 2010)

Wandering said:


> I may be way out here but... with regard to epi-pens, in the less than likely event of anaphylaxis from a snake bite (can't be much more chance than a peanut allergy: approx 1.3% of the population), assuming that the first thing the casualty did was stick themselves with it, anaphylaxis or not, I would imagine that the adrenaline rush could cause more problems?
> 
> Adrenaline increases your heartrate, wouldn't this be a negative if you were injected with a neurotoxin. Also, adrenaline constricts blood vessels, could this cause major problems if bitten by anyhting with cytotoxic venom...
> 
> Opinions?


If you are not experiecing symptoms of anaphylaxis, you should not be using an epi-pen.
This is starting to get to the point where information should not be given on the forum, in my opinion.
If you have any questions regarding epi-pens, please, contact your GP. He or she will be much more qualified to give advice/information than the vast majority of forum members.


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## Wandering (Jul 19, 2009)

MDV1 said:


> If you are not experiecing symptoms of anaphylaxis, you should not be using an epi-pen.
> This is starting to get to the point where information should not be given on the forum, in my opinion.
> If you have any questions regarding epi-pens, please, contact your GP. He or she will be much more qualified to give advice/information than the vast majority of forum members.


Agreed, your GP would almost certainly be the best contact regarding epi-pens but please don't misunderstand, I am not offering advice, just asking a relevant question based on facts about adrenaline's effects and the effects it could have on certain envenomations.

I just can't help but think that there would be a few out there, that in the event of a bite, who may panic and reach for that epi-pen in the hope that it may 'buy them more time' to get to the hospital. Also, would it not be possible for somebody who has never experienced it to misinterpret the effects of an envenomation as anaphylaxis? I imagine it would be very difficult to stay completely calm and clear headed 100% of the time after a tag from a potentially deadly animal.


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## STReptiles (Feb 6, 2009)

It seems being bitten in the U.K is unspoke of? why is this? I mean there are a few members on here that could have a lot to say on the matter but are obviously choosing not too..I wonder why. I suppose giving out information on what to do after a bite could be dangerous in some respects.

I do know of a guy that is a venomous keeper and seems to be fascinated byt the toxicoligy of it all but even hes not posting:hmm:


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## roddy mac (Dec 10, 2009)

scubamedic said:


> Not sure if im being a little slow here but why would you need an epi pen for a venomous snake bite?
> 
> My understanding is that it wouldnt work against venim. Only an anaphalaxis.
> 
> Unless you mean if the antivenim administration causes an anaphalaxis but hopefully by this time you would be in a hospital, but then again it would be them giving it.


 
the epi pen just helps with shock as shock will prob hit you wayy sooner than the venom will... so its more a precaution than a cure


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## roddy mac (Dec 10, 2009)

STReptiles said:


> It seems being bitten in the U.K is unspoke of? why is this? I mean there are a few members on here that could have a lot to say on the matter but are obviously choosing not too..I wonder why. I suppose giving out information on what to do after a bite could be dangerous in some respects.
> 
> I do know of a guy that is a venomous keeper and seems to be fascinated byt the toxicoligy of it all but even hes not posting:hmm:


 
maybe the uk keepers are good at keeping what they keep and know their animals antics and try to predict what they might do the best they can,

plus respecting their animal and the fact they may bite or strike at some point the keepers are well alert when moving their animals and only interferre/move animal/s when needed and not just moving them for fun or just to practise handling

just my thoughts on dwa keepers i know.. all have respect for their animals and what the animal could do to them if things go wrong so they are always alert and dont let their guard down, plus they have a routine/checks/proceedure they follow everytime when moving an animal


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## tigersnake (Sep 30, 2007)

Just like anti-venom is the drug of choice for snake venom poisoning, adrenalin is the drug of choice for treating severe anaphylactic reactions.
The fact that it contains 0.3 mg adrenalin and it is given intramuscularly, it is unlikely to have an adverse affect on blood pressure
If, after a snake bite, there is an indication for an epi-pen, and you have been given one by your GP, you should use it as per the instructions inside the packaging.
Cheers,
Brian.


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

tigersnake said:


> Just like anti-venom is the drug of choice for snake venom poisoning, adrenalin is the drug of choice for treating severe anaphylactic reactions.
> The fact that it contains 0.3 mg adrenalin and it is given intramuscularly, it is unlikely to have an adverse affect on blood pressure
> If, after a snake bite, there is an indication for an epi-pen, and you have been given one by your GP, you should use it as per the instructions inside the packaging.
> Cheers,
> Brian.



Bri, While your on the thread have you ever heard of the local hospital contacting a keeper for a contribution : victory:


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## tigersnake (Sep 30, 2007)

Hi Mike,
Do you meen a contribution to providing anti-venom? When I went to hospital two years ago I didn`t need the anti-venom, so it never came up. I have never heard of hospitals asking such a thing, where would it end?
Smokers, horse riders, motorcyclists, etc all could be made to "pay" for their treatment, we could hardly call it the NHS then. That would be a bad road to go down.
Cheers,
Brian.


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

tigersnake said:


> Hi Mike,
> Do you meen a contribution to providing anti-venom? When I went to hospital two years ago I didn`t need the anti-venom, so it never came up. I have never heard of hospitals asking such a thing, where would it end?
> Smokers, horse riders, motorcyclists, etc all could be made to "pay" for their treatment, we could hardly call it the NHS then. That would be a bad road to go down.
> Cheers,
> Brian.



Its Joel dude! I'll Drop you a email now mate!


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## tigersnake (Sep 30, 2007)

Hi Joel,
Sorry, I should have realised, you will have to help me out here, where will you send the email to, I am not very good with computers:blush:
Cheers,
Brian.


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

On facebook mate, Just need to rack our memories I think!


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

STReptiles said:


> It seems being bitten in the U.K is unspoke of? why is this? I mean there are a few members on here that could have a lot to say on the matter but are obviously choosing not too..*I wonder why*. I suppose giving out information on what to do after a bite could be dangerous in some respects.
> 
> I do know of a guy that is a venomous keeper and seems to be fascinated byt the toxicoligy of it all but even hes not posting:hmm:


Why? The reason is because so many of these threads get turned into ridiculous bickering rubbish as happened to this thread until a mod cleared it up. 

The subject of snake bites is discussed on other forums in a lot of detail because the users are in general a bit more respectful of each other. People are happy to post pictures of their own bites even becuase it can be discussed in a mature way, not turned into a dick measuring contest.


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## Demonlude (Feb 17, 2009)

If you get bitten, you've made a mistake and suffered the consequences. I don't see why everybody else needs to know about it really. It's not cool to be bitten by a venomous snake, and the responsible keepers probably _do_ discuss bites between themselves, but simply keep it away from the public forums.


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Demonlude said:


> If you get bitten, you've made a mistake and suffered the consequences. I don't see why everybody else needs to know about it really. It's not cool to be bitten by a venomous snake, and the responsible keepers probably _do_ discuss bites between themselves, but simply keep it away from the public forums.


The effects of bites is an area of interest for a lot of people. However I check them out for other reason as-well...

It's a bit like driving a car in my eyes... everynow and again you have a close call or see a bad accident which reminds you what can happen and in turn causes (at least me) to chill out with the accelorator pedal for a while.

I think it is important for people who come into contact with venomous to see the consequeses of what can happen, just reading words from a page can take you away from the reality of a bite.


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## Demonlude (Feb 17, 2009)

Owzy said:


> The effects of bites is an area of interest for a lot of people. However I check them out for other reason as-well...
> 
> It's a bit like driving a car in my eyes... everynow and again you have a close call or see a bad accident which reminds you what can happen and in turn causes (at least me) to chill out with the accelorator pedal for a while.
> 
> I think it is important for people who come into contact with venomous to see the consequeses of what can happen, just reading words from a page can take you away from the reality of a bite.


Completely agree with you Owzy. I just think a lot of people (that don't and never will own DWA) that ask about bites on forums, just want to hear some gruesome story, about how so and so was bitten by a rattlesnake, and their arm fell off etc etc if you see what I mean.

It's very important that keepers are aware of what the potential envenomation consequences are. I'm sure venomous keepers discuss bites between themselves, and would discuss any bites with people that have a genuine interest in research. Although I'm sure these conversations would be personal, and not public.

By the way, my opinions aren't directed towards the OP, as he asked a valid question about protocols.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> Bri, While your on the thread have you ever heard of the local hospital contacting a keeper for a contribution : victory:


If they did all you say is no way!

End of story they still *HAVE* to treat you!


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