# One to suit all? Male leo



## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

Hi i have a normal high yellow male leo and he's very nice but i don't think he'll do my new females justice. here are the females i have, 
A patternless albino(banana?) 
A blazing blizard 
A tremper albino 
And a SHCTBaldie 
I like those tangerine tornados and 5 star sunglows at Crystal Palace Reptiles Would a hibino male help me in my quest or do i need to spend some serious money. may as well get an enigma lol. 
thanks for looking:mf_dribble:


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## BG-Gecko (Nov 12, 2007)

hybino/sunglow is a perfect choice!
this will give you x patternless albino:
albinos and hypos all het patternless

x blazing blizzard
100% albinos (some with tangerine) het blizzard

x tremper:
albinos and hbinos

xSHTCTB 
(super) hypos some with CT and B all het for albino. 

something with albino in it is th only thing that would work with all of them and getting morphs in the first generation.
So hybino/sunglow is fine, RAPTOR and APTOR also have albino in them and tangerine. and giant albinos


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

boywonder said:


> Hi i have a normal high yellow male leo and he's very nice but i don't think he'll do my new females justice. here are the females i have,
> A patternless albino(banana?)
> A blazing blizard
> A tremper albino
> ...


A good male IMO would be a Tremper albino eclipse blizzard or the stupid name(Diablo blanco) .Anyway Albino eclipse blizzard X....

T_Albino patternless = 100% Albino's het blizzard,het patternless,het eclipse.

T_Albino blizzard = 100% Albino blizzard's het eclipse.

T_Albino = 100% Albino's het blizzard,het eclipse.

SHTCH'B = 50% Normal het albino,het blizzard,het eclipse-/-50% Hypo strain's het albino,het blizzard,het eclipse.

All offspring will be trait carriers for jungle,striped,reverse striped,patternless striped.Some offspring MAY express some of these trait but they will most likely have normal leo banded pattern but next generation will be full of serprizes.

But there not cheap at presant but if your going to buy a 5-star Albino SHTCH'B.I'd go for a Albino eclipse blizzard for genetics.Diablo on this forum would be the person to talk to to get one.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

i looked at eclips and also RAPTOR/APTOR but i don't like the funny eyes. normal leopard geckos have beautifull eyes, i also realy like the deep orange on the sunglows i've seen and would like to make some of my own. does anyone know of any good 07 baby sunglow/hybino males for sale? maybe a female too


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

i do like the red eyed enigmas too though but i think they're all bell albino and mine are all tremper (pink not red eyes) Near a thousand pounds is too much for me to justfy on a gecko that will be £200 or so next season anyway so i shouldn't even look. 

They're so cool looking though.(enigma's)
if i saw one in a shop, you never know:lol2:



has anyone seen any in shops up north. i'm too far away from london to go for a look?


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## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

boywonder said:


> Near a thousand pounds is too much for me to justfy on a gecko that will be £200 or so next season anyway so i shouldn't even look.


Who said they'll be £200 next year?? I know we wouldn't drop the prices of out Bell Enigmas that low.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

i read on a few us sites that because the enigma gene was dominent over all other traits except normals, many young can be produced in one generation by breeding enigmas to recesive morphs such as any albino morph. i don't pretend to know about anything genetic. it was just something i read. they quoted $400 dolars next season on the same threads.
i've been thinking about getting a red eyed enigma male all day. could probably scrape £500 togeather for a 07 male if i realy liked him. are all red eyed enigmas bell albino because most of my females are tremper based morphs. what would the outcomes be?
sorry if i upset you:whistling2:


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

boywonder said:


> are all red eyed enigmas bell albino because most of my females are tremper based morphs. what would the outcomes be?
> sorry if i upset you:whistling2:


Yes red eye enigma is Bell albino enigma that's why it's just easyer to say Bell albino enigma as they are a strain of albino.There no point crossing a Bell albino enigma with your Tremper albino,Tremper albino blizzard,Tremper albino patternless.This will result in NON albino offspring that are double het for two differant strains of albino Bell & Tremper this is not advisable thing to purposely do.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

thats what i thought gaz, i cant aford a bell enigma anyway have you got any sugestions for a good morph male to get, taking into account the females in my sig


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

boywonder said:


> thats what i thought gaz, i cant aford a bell enigma anyway have you got any sugestions for a good morph male to get, taking into account the females in my sig


Well i would say a Tremper albino super snow but your not a fan of the solid eyes.So i'd say a Tremper albino mack snow would work well and not really steep in price.

Albino mack snow X albino = 50%albino mack snow-/-50%albino.

Albino mack snow X albino patternless = 50%albino mack snow het patternless-/-50%albino het patternless.

Albino mack snow X albino blizzard = 50%mack albino snow het blizzard-/-50%albino het blizzard.

Albino mack snow X SHTCH'B = roughtly 25%mack snow het albino-/-25%mack snow hypo strain het albino-/-25%normal het albino-/-25%hypo strain het albino.

Albino mack snow X albino hypo = roughtly 25%albino mack snow-/-25%albino mack snow hypo-/-25%albino-/-25%albino hypo.

What is the banana? have you had it ID ??.hi yellow blizzard ??.


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## cjreptiles (Nov 13, 2006)

boywonder said:


> i read on a few us sites that because the enigma gene was dominent over all other traits except normals,


The _only _gene the enigma (or any other gene) is dominant over is the normal.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

cjreptiles said:


> The _only _gene the enigma (or any other gene) is dominant over is the normal.


i've only just started reading about all this genetics stuff and please forgive me if i'm wrong but i thought the _only_ gene the enigma was not dominant over is the normal strain eg if you mate enigma + albino you would get enigma het albino because the enigma gene is dominant over albino, but if you mated enigma + normal you would get normal looking babies het for enigma? anyone clarify

and gazz my (banana?) is albino she is light yellow with the colour extending onto her head right to her nose and her tail is bright white/pink, yellow blizzards have white or grey heads. maybe she is a patternless albino (thats what i thought a banana was) i don't know how to post a photo i'm new to forums


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

forgot to mention the (banana?) has no pattern at all she is a solid lemon yellow she's 27g and i got her from the living rainforest in rhyl a fortnight ago but my girlfriend was in a mood and rushed me in the shop so i didn't ask all the questions i should have. you know how it is


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

boywonder said:


> and gazz my (banana?) is albino she is light yellow with the colour extending onto her head right to her nose and her tail is bright white/pink, yellow blizzards have white or grey heads. maybe she is a patternless albino (thats what i thought a banana was) i don't know how to post a photo i'm new to forums


The only leo morph with banana in it's name is the true banana blizzard this is a non albino leo that said to be both patternless & blizzard.It is very unlikely yours is a true banana blizzard as they are so rare if there are any that exsist today.The other that are miss name as banana blizzard is the hi yellow blizzard.You say it IS a albino so i'd go for a nice example of a albino patternless or a hi yellow albino blizzard.Can you post a picture ???.


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## cjreptiles (Nov 13, 2006)

boywonder said:


> i've only just started reading about all this genetics stuff and please forgive me if i'm wrong but i thought the _only_ gene the enigma was not dominant over is the normal strain eg if you mate enigma + albino you would get enigma het albino because the enigma gene is dominant over albino, but if you mated enigma + normal you would get normal looking babies het for enigma? anyone clarify


The albino and enigma genes will be located on completely different loci, so whatever happens with one will have no effect on the other.

Reptile (like humans) are diploid, which means that there are two copies of each gene (alleles) - one coming from the mother, one from the rather. A "mutant" allele, such as one coding for albinism or the enigma trait, can only be dominant or recessive with respect to the unmutated (i.e. normal) allele.

Thus, in a trait where the mutated allele is dominant over the normal one (e.g. enigmas), the mutant trait will be displayed phenotypically in the heterozygous form (i.e. when the animal has one normal and one mutant enigma allele) OR the homozygous dominant form (when both alleles are mutated). This is also the reason why enigmas can be produced in the first generation from an enigma x non-enigma breeding, since only one enigma allele (from the enigma parent) is needed for the offspring to be phenotypically enigma.

In traits where the mutant allele is recessive to the normal one (albino, blizzard, patternless, eclipse), both alleles must be recessive for the animal to exhibit the trait phenotypically. Heterozygous (with one mutant and one normal allele) or homozygous dominant (two normal alleles) individuals will both look normal.

What happens with one gene normally has no effect on a different one (unless the genes are linked). Enigma cannot be dominant over albino (or any other trait bar normal) or you would not be able to get albino enigmas, would you? 

With regards the combinations you provided, the offspring from enigma x albino would depend on whether the enigma was homozygous dominant (EE, with two dominant enigma alleles) or heterozygous (Ee, one dominant enigma allele, one recessive normal allele). Assuming the latter (since this is more likely) the offspring would be 50% enigmas het. albino (EeAa), 50% normals het. albino (eeAa).

Engima x normal again depends on whether the enigma is homozygous (EE) or heterozygous (Ee). 

Homozygous (EE) enigma x normal (ee) = 100% heterozygous enigmas offspring (Ee).

Heterozygous enigma (Ee) x normal (ee) = 50% het enigmas (Ee), 50% normals (ee).

Remeber, 'het' enigmas are still enigmas since the trait is dominant.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

boywonder said:


> i've only just started reading about all this genetics stuff and please forgive me if i'm wrong but i thought the _only_ gene the enigma was not dominant over is the normal strain eg if you mate enigma + albino you would get enigma het albino because the enigma gene is dominant over albino, but if you mated enigma + normal you would get normal looking babies het for enigma? anyone clarify


Enigma is dominant over normal as it changes the appearances of the leo strate off.Enigma X albino = half enigma het albino's and normal het albino's.Enigma X normal = half enigma's and half normal's.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

cjreptiles said:


> The albino and enigma genes will be located on completely different loci, so whatever happens with one will have no effect on the other.
> 
> Reptile (like humans) are diploid, which means that there are two copies of each gene (alleles) - one coming from the mother, one from the rather. A "mutant" allele, such as one coding for albinism or the enigma trait, can only be dominant or recessive with respect to the unmutated (i.e. normal) allele.
> 
> ...


I was wondering why it was taking you a while to respond.Can you still see the letters on your key pad :lol2:.


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## cjreptiles (Nov 13, 2006)

gazz said:


> I was wondering why it was taking you a while to respond.Can you still see the letters on your key pad :lol2:.


Easkflnsd easmjksd[


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

now my brain hurts and i only read it! i'd better get rid of my banana sig too:blush:
so enigma can mask all other visual's even normals but most only have one enigma allele (watered down) and so produce only 50% enigmas when mated with something else other than enigma, and since most enigmas are bell or het bell they wil produce 50% normal looking babies when mated to any tremper morph?


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## cjreptiles (Nov 13, 2006)

boywonder said:


> so enigma can mask all other visual's even normals but most only have one enigma allele (watered down) and so produce only 50% enigmas when mated with something else other than enigma, and since most enigmas are bell or het bell they wil produce 50% normal looking babies when mated to any tremper morph?


Enigma can "mask" only normals (although that simplistic way of looking at it isn't really useful in helping to understand the way dominance/recessiveness works). It doesn't affect any of the other traits.



> since most enigmas are bell or het bell they wil produce 50% normal looking babies when mated to any tremper morph?


Think you're just confusing yourself. I wouldn't say most enigmas were Bell/het Bell (granted, a lot are). Whatever other traits an enigma carries has no effect on the proportion of offspring that will be enigmas. All traits act independently of one another. 

The enigmas (assuming they were heterozygous) would produce 50% non-enigmas whatever they were mated with (unless it was another enigma). Remeber that the percentages are only theoretical and you can never guarantee the actual outcomes will match with the expected ones - although the higher the sample size, the more the observed outcomes will tend towards the expected ones.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

ok so i've given up hope of getting an enigma male and have managed to get a male R.A.P.T.OR from cjreptiles even though i said i don't like the eyes, hes arriving in a week or two and i,ve been trying to figure out what i can produce, most people seem to think i'll only get het.s in the first gen, is this true


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