# How Close We Are To Animals - your Opinion?



## Joddy (Jan 27, 2014)

Welcome! This is pretty much a general thread and I was wondering where everyone stands on the topic of our relation to animals. How much like us are they do you guys think?

I myself think that we've all misunderstood the intelligence of animals and the only barrier is the language barrier, and once this is broken we seem to be amazed. Take Koko the Gorilla for example, she was taught american sign language and now knows more than 1,000 words and you can have a full conversation with her, have a look at her channel and watch a few before posting: kokoflix - YouTube

Now, if an animal like a Gorilla can love, care and understand, what about like-minded animals like pigs? or dolphins? Do they feel the same?

I have recently heard that pigs have quite complex emotions (like us humans - like Koko, maybe more complex) and I'm a definite meat-eater, but does that make it right to mass produce bacon the way we do? and :spam1: ?

I'm not trying to get across any point of view here, I just want to start a thread to get talking about these types of things as I think it would be very interesting to get people's opinions and views on such a subject. My questions and ideas here are just starter questions and I hope for this thread to diverge into many more interesting sections! 

Regards,
Jordan!


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

we are animals and we are omnivores


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## Dark Valentino (Mar 15, 2013)

The Reality Behind Koko and Signing Apes - YouTube 

Look into Bonobo apes.

I don't think all animals should be given *human emotion* as such, as a lot rely on instinct and emotion doesn't come into it.

I think one day if the language barrier is broken in some animals a few people would be disappointed to say the least..


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Intelligence, Emotion and Communication are often misunderstood, and often wrongly considered to be the domain of humans only, but this is not the case at all

Infact all these things are far more basic than most people realize

Pleasure is chemical (Dopamine - a reward based learning system found in most animals, aswell as being triggered by reproduction/sex)

Happyness is chemical (Seratonin - associated with many things, but most strongly with a full gut/stomach)

Fear is chemical (Adrenalin)

Humans complicate emotions with their big brains, by associating abstract thoughts with them - but that does not mean that only humans feel these things, or that humans feel them differently or more strongly - infact it could be argued that we are less well equipped to deal efficiently with emotions, and infact emotions cause our brains to do all sorts of psychotic things


Intelligence is relative, most humans cannot spit with the accuracy of a spitting cobra, but most corbras cannot do algebra, which is more intelligent? both skills rely on highly developed parts of the brain, which are diffrent in humans and cobras, so it depends on what is required.

Many animals, from birds, to primates to sea mammals, use tools and are able to think ahead/plan actions - another thing that was once considered a human only ability

There are mammals, including dolphins and some whales, which have languages which are far more complex than any human laungage, they eve give one another names....yet more evidence that humanity is not the star attraction of planet earth


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## Joddy (Jan 27, 2014)

CloudForest said:


> Intelligence, Emotion and Communication are often misunderstood, and often wrongly considered to be the domain of humans only, but this is not the case at all
> 
> Infact all these things are far more basic than most people realize
> 
> ...


Very nicely put. I agree with that 100%


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## Joddy (Jan 27, 2014)

Dark Valentino said:


> The Reality Behind Koko and Signing Apes - YouTube
> 
> Look into Bonobo apes.
> 
> ...


I've watched the video and I agree with what he's saying but still these animals are learning words and still communicating, even though it might not be considered language by the definition of a meticulous scientist.

You are right about some people being disappointed - people who regard animal intelligence equal to our own, even higher in some cases - but I also believe that many people will be amazed - the ones who don't regard animals as intelligence beings.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

don't forget that some animals have the ability to play games, implying a need for entertainment. i'm talking about in the wild- otters 'toboggan' runs in snow & mud slides, whales that raise their flukes above the water surface & sail like boats, dolphins & seals that choose to interact with humans who swim in the sea, etc. all of this suggests high intelligence.


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## CarlW21 (Jul 21, 2013)

I saw a documentary on BBC - I think it was a one with Richard Hammond and other presenters doing a week or so in Africa and there was a segment on Elephants and how they grieve for their losses like humans do.
It showed you a young calf had died due to exhaustion and you could see all the herd were quite distressed.

Another astonishing part was were 2 or 3 adult elephants came across the bones/remains of an elephant that was not part of their herd and they were making noises and again looking distressed, kind of like paying their respects to a fellow elephant. I was amazed they actually recognized the remains as an Elephants.

But yea, we are close to almost everything on this planet and we all have a common ancestor. We share around 75% of DNA with reptiles, most mammals around 90% and as we commonly know 98% with chimps, our closest relative.

Obviously these number are close but the significance of 1% is immense !

Sorry if I went off topic a little lol, got carried away !


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## THELAWrence (Aug 11, 2011)

Intelligence is very subjective and some animals have a reasonable amount brain power. However most animals are directed purely by instinct and necessity. Also I don't think language is the only barrier. As Ludwig Wittgenstein says "If a lion could speak english, we wouldn't understand him" meaning his frame of reference would be so different to ours it would be impossible to have a normal conversation.


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## CarlW21 (Jul 21, 2013)

THELAWrence said:


> Intelligence is very subjective and some animals have a reasonable amount brain power. However most animals are directed purely by instinct and necessity. Also I don't think language is the only barrier. As Ludwig Wittgenstein says "If a lion could speak english, we wouldn't understand him" meaning his frame of reference would be so different to ours it would be impossible to have a normal conversation.


This is a good view, when we think, "if animals could talk" a lot of people would think Dr. Doolittle and we could all have perfectly normal conversations lol


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## Joddy (Jan 27, 2014)

THELAWrence said:


> Intelligence is very subjective and some animals have a reasonable amount brain power. However most animals are directed purely by instinct and necessity. Also I don't think language is the only barrier. As Ludwig Wittgenstein says "If a lion could speak english, we wouldn't understand him" meaning his frame of reference would be so different to ours it would be impossible to have a normal conversation.


I like that quote, might steal it:whistling2:

I like the reference to how other mammals are instinctive and this I believe is actually one of the reasons why we're so much more advanced as we look past instinct and ask why.

I came across how intelligent octopi are and I heard that "If octopi lived as long as us, then they'd be the dominating race of the earth". Have a look at this video, sorry for the different language I couldn't find the original one I watched:

Pulpos: suave inteligencia (Octopus intelligence) - YouTube

But from here you see that the octopus has got to recognise his prey (something all animals/mammals can do), but then he has to solve the problem of actually getting to it, he has to think about it and find a logical solution in order to get the crab - which I find pretty amazing, the ability to reason, determine and solve. Not many animals show this trait.


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## CarlW21 (Jul 21, 2013)

Inside the Animal Mind. 3 episodes which aired this year is a pretty good insight to animals and human likeness.

Most of it shows animal intelligence, which is very impressive, then there are some really thought invoking parts, such as animals social side, there ability to be empathetic etc...

it's a really good watch, on the BBC iplayer now


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## Joddy (Jan 27, 2014)

CarlW21 said:


> Inside the Animal Mind. 3 episodes which aired this year is a pretty good insight to animals and human likeness.
> 
> Most of it shows animal intelligence, which is very impressive, then there are some really thought invoking parts, such as animals social side, there ability to be empathetic etc...
> 
> it's a really good watch, on the BBC iplayer now


I'll give that a watch, sounds good!:2thumb:


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## CarlW21 (Jul 21, 2013)

Joddy said:


> I'll give that a watch, sounds good!:2thumb:


Let me know what you think of it


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## Yemeyana (May 18, 2011)

The problem with 'animal vs human' intelligence discussions is they seem to be biblical in their understanding of our relationship with animals. There's this lingering feeling that we 'ascended' or were touched by the magic of Humanity and now we are being of pure enlightenment and logic.

This simply isn't true. If you're tired or hungry, you're more likely to become aggressive. In a smokey room, things might aggravate you more. A chemical imbalance can render someone in a state of depression so intense that day-to-day life is a struggle. The variation in humans alone is huge - some people seem to me very unaware of their selves. A 'chav'-type teenager lashing out at the tiniest detail, with no idea of how silly he looks with that wonky strut and head-bob. 

Of course we're possibly the most self-aware animal on the planet, as far as we can see... although there may be competitors in the elephant, corvid, cetacean, possibly even cephalopod groups. The quote about not being able to understand a lion really captures the issue with interspecies communication for me - we expect for the animal to come to us, when in fact we have to find a central ground where ideas and concepts can be communicated in a way that is conducive to two-way communication. When I talk to my lizards, I don't reel out sentences; neither do I try to 'speak lizard' - I construct a new and simple grammatical set that keeps them calm and informed of what's going on and gives them chance to respond in their way (e.g. through enthusiasm or hissing) thus establishing a communication between myself and them.
I'm curious as to if in the future I'll have the opportunity to try these tactics with more advanced animals, but I'm confident if I do it will reveal a very very high level of function.

Bear in mind that even human intelligence is still a biased and unscientific field: most standardised intelligence quota tests are heavily biased culturally, sexually, or otherwise.


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## s6t6nic6l (May 15, 2010)

"hey, imbecile, why the hell are you feeding me this crap, don't you know it's too bloody draughty/cold/hot in here. where are my proper sleeping quarters and why the :censor: are you keeping me in this wholly inadequate MINIMUM sized enclosure, :blah::blah::blah:"

communicate with animals, nah not for me :lol2:


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## Joddy (Jan 27, 2014)

s6t6nic6l said:


> "hey, imbecile, why the hell are you feeding me this crap, don't you know it's too bloody draughty/cold/hot in here. where are my proper sleeping quarters and why the :censor: are you keeping me in this wholly inadequate MINIMUM sized enclosure, :blah::blah::blah:"
> 
> communicate with animals, nah not for me :lol2:


haha :lol2:


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

I'm agreeing with an earlier comment here, by saying we're very close cause we are animals ourselves.
We've evolved into what we are the same way lions have, elephants have or whales etc.


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## Joddy (Jan 27, 2014)

Rach1 said:


> I'm agreeing with an earlier comment here, by saying we're very close cause we are animals ourselves.
> We've evolved into what we are the same way lions have, elephants have or whales etc.


Very true. It's a shame when people think we're (us humans) above animals and they play god with their lives!


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

studies by london zoo have shown that the higher evolved parrots (macaws, amazons, african greys & cockatoos) do not merely mimic human speech, but actually try to learn it- limited conversations are possible with some specimens.


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## Joddy (Jan 27, 2014)

wilkinss77 said:


> studies by london zoo have shown that the higher evolved parrots (macaws, amazons, african greys & cockatoos) do not merely mimic human speech, but actually try to learn it- limited conversations are possible with some specimens.


Do you have a link?


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Joddy said:


> Do you have a link?


dunno if this link will work- not london zoo but someone else doing the same research.


> * African Grey Parrot Mimicry & Intelligence*


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## Joddy (Jan 27, 2014)

wilkinss77 said:


> dunno if this link will work- not london zoo but someone else doing the same research.


Thanks, I'll give it a look!


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Joddy said:


> Thanks, I'll give it a look!


i also know someone who had a blue & yellow macaw that would ask & answer basic questions.


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## Joddy (Jan 27, 2014)

wilkinss77 said:


> i also know someone who had a blue & yellow macaw that would ask & answer basic questions.


Fascinating, I'm guessing they were just "Yes or No" questions? (Correct me if I'm wrong)


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Joddy said:


> Fascinating, I'm guessing they were just "Yes or No" questions? (Correct me if I'm wrong)


no, it would ask 'dinner?' if it saw its owner eating- if she said 'no', it would ask 'lunch?', etc, until it got a 'yes.'. then it would ask, 'nice?' on a 'no' reply, it would stop talking- on a 'yes' reply, it would ask 'can have?' it would then be fed a bit of whatever she was eating.


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## Joddy (Jan 27, 2014)

wilkinss77 said:


> no, it would ask 'dinner?' if it saw its owner eating- if she said 'no', it would ask 'lunch?', etc, until it got a 'yes.'. then it would ask, 'nice?' on a 'no' reply, it would stop talking- on a 'yes' reply, it would ask 'can have?' it would then be fed a bit of whatever she was eating.


Very interesting. Do you think that these were actual opinions or just a trained set of tricks...Like a routine sort of


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Joddy said:


> Very interesting. Do you think that these were actual opinions or just a trained set of tricks...Like a routine sort of


dunno. but she got the impression that it was trying to talk to her, & it ties in with the research in the link i posted, & that conducted by london zoo.
incidentally, only the more advanced parrots like african geys, macaws, etc are believed to have the ability to try to learn to converse- the more primitive parrots & other talking birds like mynahs are still thought to merely mimic human speech.


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