# BELs



## ladybird (Sep 9, 2006)

Does the mojave/lesser cross produce a better BEL than a lesser/lesser?


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## CaseyM (Nov 8, 2006)

Its all down to personal choice, for me the best BEL comes from butter to butter. : victory:


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## Robbie (Dec 4, 2006)

CaseyM said:


> Its all down to personal choice, for me the best BEL comes from butter to butter. : victory:


Snap dragons


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## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

Thats strange, does anyone have examples (photos) of BELs produced by different morphs?


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## ladybird (Sep 9, 2006)

bump.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

NERD's BluEL "Vivid" is a Lesser Mojave.

A Super Mojave is not quite a BluEL.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

I suppose it depends upon what you mean by a "better" BEL. Lesser x lesser tend to produce a whiter animal than a lesser x mojave or mojave x mojave.


Stuart


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## Alex27 (Jul 26, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> I suppose it depends upon what you mean by a "better" BEL. Lesser x lesser tend to produce a whiter animal than a lesser x mojave or mojave x mojave.
> 
> 
> Stuart


 
seconded but ive heard vin russo het leucistic make one of the best ones to i think they look like a high yellow normal


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> seconded but ive heard vin russo het leucistic make one of the best ones to i think they look like a high yellow normal


On another forum someone made a post basically listing white royal morphs in terms of their whiteness. Here's what they posted;



> The hierarchy from whitest to least white goes like this:
> 
> Russo
> Black-eyed (homozygous FIRE)
> ...


Stuart


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

pastelpythons27 said:


> seconded but ive heard vin russo het leucistic make one of the best ones to i think they look like a high yellow normal


Russo x Russo - White Diamond.

I personally think the best BEL's about are from a Butter x Butter pairing also.


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

best? i guess whiteness is what you are talking about.

I've not seen a comparison photo of the various BEL combos but my own mojave x lesser bels are certainly white enough for me. I have no idea how they will develop over the next two years, I'll just have to wait and see.

The advantage of a Mojave x Lesser compared to a super lesser or super butter is that potentially you should be able to produce more BEL's by mating it to just normals (in theory it should work like a bumble bee).


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Scott W said:


> The advantage of a Mojave x Lesser compared to a super lesser or super butter is that potentially you should be able to produce more BEL's by mating it to just normals (in theory it should work like a bumble bee).


Mojave and Lesser are allelic - they're different flavours of the same gene and are codominant to each other. It won't work like a bumblebee because Pastel and Spider are two different genes entirely.

For example, a bumblebee would be PpS* - heterozygous pastel (het not-pastel) and at least heterozygous Spider.

A Lesser Mojave is not Ll Mm... it is more like Ll/Lm (het Leucistic, flavour Lesser platty / het Leucistic, flavour Mojave). Both traits exist on the same gene pair.

You could not get a Super Mojave that carries Lesser; you could not get a Super Lesser that carries Mojave. 

So every time you breed a Lesser Mojave to a normal you will get EITHER Lesser platinums OR Mojaves (and never normals or BluELs).

I assume that if someone described the allelic BluEL combos it would be something like:

Lb (Butter)
Ll (Lesser Platinum)
Lm (Mojave)
Lp (Phantom)
Lr (Russo Lemon Line het Leucistic)
L (wildtype)
ld (Mystery Dilute - whatever it is that makes lessers into platties - but doesn't show up in het form, and may not be visual in a homozygous)


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## Craig08 (Apr 30, 2008)

WOW..... Thats all a bit complicated isn't it....

Not wishing to highjack here but is leucism co-dom?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

In royals it appears to be - both black-eyed and blue-eyed variants have "visible hets".


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Mojave and Lesser are allelic - they're different flavours of the same gene and are codominant to each other. It won't work like a bumblebee because Pastel and Spider are two different genes entirely.
> 
> 
> > Yep, totally understand what you are saying BUT apparently someone has confirmed that it does CaptiveBred Reptile Forums - View Single Post - It'll be all white on the night!
> ...


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Scott W said:


> Yep, totally understand what you are saying BUT apparently someone has confirmed that it does CaptiveBred Reptile Forums - View Single Post - It'll be all white on the night!
> 
> Hopefully I'll know for sure myself within a year.


I don't actually see any PROOF there that it does - they're treating Mojave and Lesser like two separate traits instead of as alleles of the same trait (like Bumblebee instead of like Ivory, so to speak). I realise that's the folks at Crystal Palace Reptiles saying it, but then again they are also describing a _normal_-looking corn snake as simultaneously het for motley AND stripe on their website... which is also equally impossible. One or the other but not both because the genes exist on the same gene pair. An animal that is het motley and het stripe is a visual MOTLEY. 

Likewise, an animal that is het lesser and het mojave is a visual Blue-Eyed Leucistic.

I would like to see proof positive that Mojave and Lesser and Butter are NOT allelic myself... because it has been to my understanding thus far that they ARE alleles and thus an animal can only pass one copy of ONE of them on to each offspring.

Saying that you could produce BluELs from a BluEL to a normal is like saying an Albino could pass BOTH of his albino alleles and overwrite the normal-not-albino allele that Mum would pass on to the offspring.


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> I don't actually see any PROOF there that it does - they're treating Mojave and Lesser like two separate traits instead of as alleles of the same trait (like Bumblebee instead of like Ivory, so to speak). I realise that's the folks at Crystal Palace Reptiles saying it, but then again they are also describing a _normal_-looking corn snake as simultaneously het for motley AND stripe on their website... which is also equally impossible. One or the other but not both because the genes exist on the same gene pair. An animal that is het motley and het stripe is a visual MOTLEY.
> 
> Likewise, an animal that is het lesser and het mojave is a visual Blue-Eyed Leucistic.
> 
> ...


As I said hopefully I will prove one way or another with my own BEL less/mojo matings this coming season. But of course would me hatching any be proof enough for anyone else?

I'm guessing Darren say's its 100% because he has been told by a reliable source.


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## royalpython (Nov 16, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> I don't actually see any PROOF there that it does - they're treating Mojave and Lesser like two separate traits instead of as alleles of the same trait (like Bumblebee instead of like Ivory, so to speak). I realise that's the folks at Crystal Palace Reptiles saying it, but then again they are also describing a _normal_-looking corn snake as simultaneously het for motley AND stripe on their website... which is also equally impossible. One or the other but not both because the genes exist on the same gene pair. An animal that is het motley and het stripe is a visual MOTLEY.
> 
> Likewise, an animal that is het lesser and het mojave is a visual Blue-Eyed Leucistic.
> 
> ...


Ralph produces lessers and phantoms from his Karma (phantom lesser leucy), so it seems likely others will follow the same lines. Wonder how it works with this mojo thing then 

Clutch 15, 08 birthing records.



> 2.1 Lesser Platty and 1.3 Phantom hatched out on 7/11/08..........so far every time I have bred "Karma" to a normal I get a mix of Lessers and Phantoms with no normals........_*Karma is POWERFUL!! *_


Ralph Davis Reptiles - Birthing Record - Pythons


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## Blackecho (Jun 30, 2008)

What are the offspring odds for a Mojave x Mojave?

cheers.


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## ladybird (Sep 9, 2006)

Mojave x Mojave would make:

1/4 BEL (super mojave)
1/2 Mojave
1/4 normal


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## Blackecho (Jun 30, 2008)

Cheers.


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