# Choke Chains



## rattygirl (Mar 16, 2009)

*Crossposted from another forum!*

I have just noticed that the UK APDT have produced this leaflet, obviously sponored by James Wellbeloved. http://www.apdt.co.uk/pdfs/Choke_Chain_leaflet.pdf
What a shame they could not have given this more publicity instead of hiding it away on their site! I haven't seen any of these leaflets anywhere and only noticed it because I was looking for something else. In this day and age, organisations should really be pushing to highlight the dangers of such old fashioned gadgets, especially in the hands of pet owners.









Opinions?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

hmm...

what can i say? well meaning idiots... bless 'em... they mean well, however misguided they can be...


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Agree that choke chains are horrible things and unnecessary to anyone who can actually be bothered working with their dogs.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

They're so ignorant it's almost cute. I have no idea what they are actually trying to say though? 'Choke' chains are NOT for chokeing a dog, they are NOT for teaching a dog not to pull (if a dog pulls on a 'choke' chain you are defeating the object of said 'choke' chain) and they are NOT as barbaric as these people try to make out. Then again an APDT trained person also told my friend that the way to stop her Lab pulling was to put it in a head collar, she showed her how to use said head collar 'properly' (she put it on him and clipped a lead straight onto the head collar with nothing attaching onto an actual collar) and the dog "coincidentally" sprained his neck on the first walk with the head collar because she didn't know how to use one properly. The leaflet appears to be condoning the use of head collars and anti-pull harnesses though, what happened to actually TRAINING the dog instead of using restraints? Why are people to lazy to do a few corrections and use a suitable form of restraint (be that by means of a properly fitted harness and leash, or a properly fitted flat collar and leash)? Why should said things even be available?

Not that I'm condoneing 'choke' chains being sold to Jo and his mate, but then again if it was up to me 'choke' chains, half-checks, martingales, slip leads, whippet slips, ALL head collars, electronic collars and various different harnesses wouldn't be allowed OTC. 



HABU said:


> hmm...
> 
> what can i say? well meaning idiots... bless 'em... they mean well, however misguided they can be...


:notworthy:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Some people don't want to do "corrections" L4L because "corrections" means punishment. You don't need to use punishment to train a dog. I'd rather see someone use a Halti forever and never train them to walk to heal than use a choke chain. Saying they're not "as barbaric" is saying that you recognise that they are at least partly so. No owner needs a choke chain. But of course, lots of lazy owners do use them. We wouldn't allow people in the class with one on their dog.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Corrections is just a smarmy way of saying "yank on the chain, hurt them and make them not want to do it again".

In this day and age there is no need for it in the average dog training. It's just a dick extension and a lazy way of training.

"You're my dog - obey me or else I'll hurt you!". Hmm.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Some people don't want to do "corrections" L4L because "corrections" means punishment. You don't need to use punishment to train a dog. I'd rather see someone use a Halti forever and never train them to walk to heal than use a choke chain. Saying they're not "as barbaric" is saying that you recognise that they are at least partly so. No owner needs a choke chain. But of course, lots of lazy owners do use them. We wouldn't allow people in the class with one on their dog.


A correction isn't a punishment. The 'choke' chain is used to get the dogs mind directed back to you, you teach the dog that what it is doing is wrong but first you have to get said dog out of the state of mind. Tbh, I don't think they are barbaric at all, but alas. Like usual you have taken to slagging things (and owners) off because you had decided something for yourself. Have you ever used one PROPERLY? ("PROPERLY" being the operative word).



LisaLQ said:


> Corrections is just a smarmy way of saying "yank on the chain, hurt them and make them not want to do it again".
> 
> In this day and age there is no need for it in the average dog training. It's just a dick extension and a lazy way of training.
> 
> "You're my dog - obey me or else I'll hurt you!". Hmm.


Right...:roll: You two make quite the team, well done.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

:2thumb: You took the words right out of my mouth! :whistling2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

anyone incapable of using a choke chain correctly should not have them... or be around sharp objects... something is wrong with them...


*How To Use The Choker Chain*


A choke chain is an excellent training tool. It does not harm the dog in any way when used properly. ​ 
*The difference between a choke chain and a collar *
There are people who consider that a choke chain is rather inhumane. They prefer using the regular flat collar instead. However this is a rather mistaken point of view.
A choke chain works on a jerk – release motion and distributes pressure equally around the neck region. On the other hand a collar concentrates pressure only on one part of the neck on the side opposite the leash. ​ 
So if a flat collar is jerked from above, the entire pressure is focused on the windpipe, which causes a strangulating sensation for the dog. Thus the choke chain is a better alternative.​ 
*How to use a choke chain*
A choke chain must be jerked quickly and released immediately. It is meant to grab the dog’s attention and surprise it too. It must not be held too tightly. It could cause slow strangulation if the dog is held for too long and dragged around by it. This is really cruel! ​ 
Just watch a misinformed person walking down a street dragging a wayward dog behind him on a choke chain. Every muscle of the dog’s body will be tense. Its eyes will be bulging from the pressure on its neck. This rather awful scene is typical of causing unnecessary physical and emotional pain. It also causes harmful dents an otherwise pristine canine-human relationship. ​ 
When you use a choke chain correctly, it feels like someone pulling you up short by your suspenders and then letting go. The choke chain gives the owner a high degree of control. It allows you to communicate quickly and clearly with your dog. He will know what is correct and what is not.​ 
A choke chain must be used to only correct your dog. It is not a method of punishment or an instrument of torture. It should not be used as a method of retraining your dog either. It must be removed after a training session is over. Never allow your dog to rum around unsupervised wearing a choke chain either. ​ 
*Dangers of a choke chain*
Never leave the choke chain on the dog at all times. If the chain gets entangled, the dog could get strangled. The choke chain must be used only for training sessions and that too when you are there to control the chain. Never leave a choke chain on a dog that is unsupervised or running around loose.​ 

*A few tips about choke chains*

Never use a choke chain till your pup is at least 6 months old. His neck is just not strong enough to tolerate the rigors of a choke chain until then. ​
A correct fit is an absolute must. ​
Choose a chain that is about half inch wide and slips easily through the metal ring. Make sure that the links lie flat so that they slide smoothly without catching on the ring. The chain must have about 3 to 4 inches of slack when it is pulled snug around the dog’s neck. Please note that a short chain will fit rather too tightly and a long one will make it difficult to deliver the quick snap that is required for an effective choke chain correction. ​
Do not use thin linked jewelry type of choke chains. They cut into the neck rather painfully. ​
Remove your dog’s regular flat collar when you use a choke chain. The flat collar might dissipate the quick snap of the choke chain making it an ineffective training tool.​
*How to use a choke chain*
To put the chain on your dog, first hold it out horizontally, and then drop a loop through one of the end rings. The chain will form the letter ‘P’. Now make your dog stand to your left side. Then place the chain over his head so that the long portion of the chain, which is the straight part of the ‘P’, lies across the top of the neck. When you want to train your dog on the right side, just reverse the chain. ​ 
Putting the chain on is simple. What requires some amount of practice is learning how to use it effectively. When you use it your dog must get the clear message of what is correct. ​ 
People normally tend to apply pressure on the chain and hold it. This causes the dog’s neck muscles to tighten. So he pulls away from the pressure. He does not surrender to it. So instead of correcting your dog, you just promote resistance in him. The secret is to apply pressure and release immediately. Do not hold even briefly. It is very painful for your dog. ​ 
It might take a little practice to get the correct and quick snap and release action of the choke chain. So first practice it yourself without putting it on the dog. Put it around your forearm. With your free hand, take the chin by the end ring and snap it tight. So pay attention to the feeling of pressure on your arm. ​ 
Make it sharp and quick. Do take note of the fact that the pressure catches you by surprise and goes even before you arm muscles have time to get tense. When you reach this stage, you are ready to use the choke chain on your dog. That is the perfect correction. ​ 
The amount of force used is also important when using a choke chain. The fact is either you correct your dog or you do not. There is no go between. So if you jerk and there is not enough force applied your dog will not get the message and he will continue with whatever he was doing. This will defeat your very purpose of using a choke chain. The force was too little.​ 
So you must correct as hard as you can and get the message across. You will know that he has got the message when he stops whatever he was doing and looks at you. So praise him when he stops his incorrect behavior and looks towards you. When he stops his wrong behavior and looks at you, he has accepted your leadership. That is good communication and the whole point of correction. ​ 
How To Use The Choker Chain



Proper Use Of The Slip Collar​

The slip collar, commonly miscalled a choke collar, is available in various styles, most people will associate the chain slip collar as the primary training collar. Slip collars are available in all types of materials from chain, cord, elastic stretch (bungee cord), fabric, flat strap, and safeties. 

*“Choke Chains”* are not intended to choke your dog! The intent is that when the collar is tugged it will pinch the brachial nerve in the dogs neck (much like pinching the funny bone) or according to some people it is intended to simulate how a mother will nip a puppy on the neck to correct it. *The Slip Collar is NOT intended to choke your dog. *If your dog is choking with the use of this collar *then use a different collar!*

Personally I don’t care for chain or cord slip collars. They are far to often considered as the only choice and used as the first or only training collar, when a different collar would be more appropriate, safer, and much easier to use. Chain slip collars should *NOT* be the first choice for a training collar. *NEVER* use a slip collar, chain or cord, on a dog under 6 months old. *NEVER EVER*.

If you are going to use a slip collar; be it chain, cord, leather, or strap, learn how to use it properly before you put it on your dog. Do some reading. Watch them in use. The first consideration is size. A collar that is too large will only detract from its primary effectiveness. Measure the size of your dogs neck high on the neck, not close to the shoulders. Then add an inch or two. That will be the size you want to buy. The proper fit should just slide over the dogs head without unduly pulling on the dogs ears. 

Don’t buy large thinking “they’ll grow into it”. Instead buy 4 collars, one the correct size and another 2 inches larger and 2 other types of training collars in the proper size. Use the collar which gives you the level of correction you need. There is nothing that says you have to use one collar and one collar only during training. If a collar works during training for Sit/Stay but doesn’t work during training to Heel feel free to move to another collar. Switch back and forth. There is a benefit to this in that your dog will not become collar smart.

There is only two ways to put a slip collar on. You’d think people would get it right 50% of the time by chance, this doesn’t seem to be the case. The free end which connects to the lead should be over the dogs neck not come under. The position is important, over the neck the collar immediately releases pressure when slack is given. Under the neck this is not the case.



*YES.* The free end which connects to the lead goes over the dogs neck.
*NO. DO NOT PUT THE FREE END UNDER THE DOGS NECK*


In use there should be no tension in the lead and approximately six inches of slack, the collar should be completely relaxed. Giving corrections with the slip collar should be short tugs. DON’T haul back like you’re setting a gaff in a fish. It is very easy to damage the dogs throat. DON’T let your dog run and hit the end of the lead. DON’T hold steady pressure on the lead constricting the dogs breathing. NEVER yank on the lead in anger. You can crush the dogs throat and kill them. Yes sad to say it does happen.

If the dog is hauling on the lead and choking. _*GET A DIFFERENT COLLAR.*_

The slip collar is a training collar only. It should be on your dog only when training and under your direct control. If your dog is running free and having a blast being off lead then it shouldn’t be wearing a slip collar. I have seen a dog, wearing a chain slip collar, run and jump through a brush pile. The free ring got caught in a branch effectively hanging the dog. In this instance the owner was close enough to see what had happed and immediately rescued the dog, this is not always the outcome. 

Remove the slip collar as soon as you are done training. Slip collars should never be on dogs that are tied outside. The dog is not under your direct control when tied out. Remember it is easy for a dog to back out of a slip collar.

A slip collar, in all its various guises, is still just one of many training tools available to you. Don’t be afraid to try different ones. Half the fun of owning a dog is all the neat things you get to buy and try. Use the minimum tool to get the behaviour that you desire. Be realistic in what you are demanding from your dog as well. 


Dog Training. Proper Use Of The Slip Collar or Choke Chain. Fort Smith Animal Society​


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> A correction isn't a punishment. The 'choke' chain is used to get the dogs mind directed back to you, you teach the dog that what it is doing is wrong but first you have to get said dog out of the state of mind. Tbh, I don't think they are barbaric at all, but alas. Like usual you have taken to slagging things (and owners) off because you had decided something for yourself. Have you ever used one PROPERLY? ("PROPERLY" being the operative word).


Excuse me? The only person "slagging" anyone off so far is you - I simply said that lazy people use them for training. You making this a personal attack would be a case of the pot calling the kettle black even if you were correct? Please keep your posts civil.

A choke chain used correctly is used to yank. That is the only action it provides used correctly, and a yank is unecessary. I didn't say it was "barbaric", that was your use of words - you said "not as barbaric", indicating that you believe there is some harm in them. I personally think they are unecessary and not effective, and that there is no need to use aversives when positive methods accomplish the same and more effectively and humanely.

When used incorrectly obviously choke chains follow their name, but to be fair I will keep to correct use as like you I know other items can be misused too.

However, with tools such as haltis and the actual purpose is not harmful or abusive. That's the difference. Obviously what you and I constitute as abuse is different, but I am glad to know the APDT are behind my view and not yours.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

feorag said:


> :2thumb: You took the words right out of my mouth! :whistling2:


Got anything useful to add, or just tag team bitching as usual?


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Excuse me? The only person "slagging" anyone off so far is you - I simply said that lazy people use them for training. You making this a personal attack would be a case of the pot calling the kettle black even if you were correct? Please keep your posts civil.
> 
> A choke chain used correctly is used to yank. That is the only action it provides used correctly, and a yank is unecessary. I didn't say it was "barbaric", that was your use of words - you said "not as barbaric", indicating that you believe there is some harm in them. I personally think they are unecessary and not effective, and that there is no need to use aversives when positive methods accomplish the same and more effectively and humanely.
> 
> ...


:roll:

And where exactly did I slag anybody off?!
I repeat, have you ever used a 'choke' chain _*properly*_?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

serious people use them...

some dogs are working dogs and professionals... other dogs are pets... where training is an afterthought... being adorable is the primary trait many seek in those cases... not discipline or performance....




















dogs are not all created equal...


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

KathyM said:


> A choke chain used correctly is used to yank. That is the only action it provides used correctly, and a yank is unecessary..


Sorry - I hold the belief that a choke chain used correctly is used to "check" the dog, not choke it. As Habu's post says - it's a jerk and instant release method of checking the dog's behaviour. 

I agree used incorrectly or for the wrong purpose or by an idiot it's a dangerous tool, but that doesn't make it a dangerous tool for all!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

HABU that might be the case where you are, but in the UK the vast majority of dog trainers no longer use them.

I am thoroughly ashamed to say I have used a choke chain, properly and as a newbie improperly. They are not necessary, that is all I have said, and got atacked for saying so too. I won't contribute to a thread where the intent is to get rid of one side of a discussion rather than debate like an adult, which you seem to be incapable of L4L. I was only agreeing with the OP, I will remember in future that one cannot have a view on dog training that doesn't go along with "pack leaders" beating, choking, yanking or electric shocking animals into "submission".

Thankfully I know when I speak to my many dog trainer friends, they will be a breath of fresh air compared.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

KathyM said:


> Got anything useful to add, or just tag team bitching as usual?


:lol2: just seen this! Considering how often you and your sister follow each other around this forum, agreeing with each other and slagging other people off, I think that's a bit of a joke!!!

It's well known on this forum (or it should be) that I don't often agree with L4L and I'm not one of her "followers", but I'll give credit where it's due when I agree with something someone says, whether I usually disagree or not!!!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I didn't "follow" anyone though did I? And got attacked for it. The fact someone came and agreed (someone who in general does not hold the same views as me in dog training) makes it ok to attack me does it? It seems what is good for the goose is not good for the gander on this board - I have done my best to steer clear of getting this kind of reaction (which to be fair is VERY difficult having someone known to be a relative on the same board), and yet every time we're on the same thread I get accused of tag teaming. The same can and is being said about you and L4L in this case and you think it's acceptable. Sorry, but that's me out of this thread, I was up for a good debate/natter but didn't deserve that.

ETA: Every time someone disagrees with something I say, they say "Lisa and Kathy" this, "Lisa and Kathy" that. I wonder if they'd like it if I turned it around and said the same about them, because frankly the tag teaming on this board is far worse from non-relatives.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

KathyM said:


> They are not necessary, that is all I have said, and got atacked for saying so too. I won't contribute to a thread where the intent is to get rid of one side of a discussion rather than debate like an adult, which you seem to be incapable of L4L. I was only agreeing with the OP, I will remember in future that one cannot have a view on dog training that doesn't go along with "pack leaders" beating, choking, yanking or electric shocking animals into "submission".


Since when is passing snidey comments about "tag Teams" debating like an adult?

I use a check chain on my dog, it's a wide linked 'gentler' chain and I use it correctly and I'm not ashamed to say that I use it or have used one in the past on my other dogs. That by no means means that I go along with "beating, choking, yanking or electric shocking animals into submission".

Is that not just a little OTT for an adult discussion??


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> Right...:roll: You two make quite the team, well done.





feorag said:


> :2thumb: You took the words right out of my mouth! :whistling2:





feorag said:


> Since when is passing snidey comments about "tag Teams" debating like an adult?


Final words - pot, kettle. :bash:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

And that's what I call selective reading!!

The whole post that I was agreeing to actually said



LoveForLizards said:


> A correction isn't a punishment. The 'choke' chain is used to get the dogs mind directed back to you, you teach the dog that what it is doing is wrong but first you have to get said dog out of the state of mind. Tbh, I don't think they are barbaric at all, but alas. Like usual you have taken to slagging things (and owners) off because you had decided something for yourself. Have you ever used one PROPERLY? ("PROPERLY" being the operative word).
> 
> 
> 
> Right...:roll: You two make quite the team, well done.


I was actually agreeing with the first comment not specifically the second - I don't use the quote facility if no-one has commented between the post I'm referring to, cos it just fills up the page!

So no need for the sarcy "pot, kettle" comment! 

All that tells me is that you wanted to see an insult in my comment - so you didn't consider that I might be agreeing to L4L's comment about correction not always being a punishment or using a choke chain correctly.

The whistle was the closest I could find to music because I was quoting a song title - I did look for a music icon, but there isn't one.

But you can take whatever connotation you choose to my words, because that's what you always do! Maybe I should have added a LOL after it so that I could come back and say I was joking (another one of your habits!)


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

KathyM said:


> I didn't "follow" anyone though did I? And got attacked for it. The fact someone came and agreed (someone who in general does not hold the same views as me in dog training) makes it ok to attack me does it? It seems what is good for the goose is not good for the gander on this board - I have done my best to steer clear of getting this kind of reaction (which to be fair is VERY difficult having someone known to be a relative on the same board), and yet every time we're on the same thread I get accused of tag teaming. The same can and is being said about you and L4L in this case and you think it's acceptable. Sorry, but that's me out of this thread, I was up for a good debate/natter but didn't deserve that.
> 
> ETA: Every time someone disagrees with something I say, they say "Lisa and Kathy" this, "Lisa and Kathy" that. I wonder if they'd like it if I turned it around and said the same about them, because frankly the tag teaming on this board is far worse from non-relatives.


As Feorag said it's no often we completely agree on things and we certainly aren't a tag team (We'd make an awful one at that even if we tried:lol2. Nobody got attacked, it was merely a disagree and an offer for debate, last I knew that wasn't considered an argument or slanging match. I think this kind of thing is black or white, you agree with the use of 'choke' chains or you don't, people are always going to agree and disagree so where does tag team ever come into it?! I'm up for debate, but not with people who tar everybody with the same brush and say just because somebody uses X piece of equipment they are instantly a lazy owner, as the same can and is said about many other training tools (including head collars), as that couldn't be far from the truth. If a 'choke' chain suits one dog why shouldn't it be used? Same can be said for everything else (martingales, head collars etc). I used to be 100% against slip leads and 'choke' chains, but as I've come to realise why and how they are used when they are used properly, I understand why a lot of people choose to use them.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

feorag said:


> And that's what I call selective reading!!
> 
> The whole post that I was agreeing to actually said
> 
> ...


I did say I wasn't coming back to this, so please stop trying to insult me any further. You don't agree, big deal, there's no need for you to get personal and there was no need for L4L's comments on Lisa and I being a "team". I don't have any "habits" and to be honest I'm wondering why I bothered coming back to this board when every time I post there's one of you saying "Your sister and you" this when she hadn';t even posted at the point I did. Am I meant to avoid any threads where she posts so you don't have this ammunition? You say you didn't mean that part - well sorry if I believe that's one of YOUR habits Feorag. The amount of times someone says something spiteful and hurtful and you're there immediately after saying "Right on", or "Couldn't agree more" or in this case "You took the words right out of my mouth" is quite astounding, generally with litle or no contribution to the thread.

That's why I left this board the first time round. People can disagree or agree without being a "team", it was insulting and unprovoked. If Lisa had been anyone else you wouldn't have made those comments - she would'be had to be responsible for what she posted alone and likewise for me. It is only because we are relatives that you use that to abuse. If you're concerned about us being a tag team perhaps you could look into the times we post and the fact that Lisa and I like other twins often do everything we can to not be alike or misnomered as some sort of team.

Lisa and I do not agree on many aspects of animal care and training. I have come to the decision that on this board it will be impossible for you and L4L to get over this point, so the only option is for me not to contribute any more.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

And not contributing is your democratic right!

I hadn't contributed to the thread previous to that comment, because I hadn't even seen it! My first contribution to the thread therefore was that I agreed that there was a case when a choke chain could be used humanely if correctly. If L4L hadn't commented on that, then that would have been my first comment, but her comment made what I intended to say when I read the first post unnecessary, so I simply agreed.

It's been obvious for a long time now that you have a problem with me and again that's your prerogative, but I'm not going to argue the point with you, or lose any sleep over it! I've got a life to lead.

However, I won't be accused of doing something that I haven't done and reserve my right to explain myself. I've never mentioned your sister at all in this thread or passed any comment about her, so I'll leave it to the rest of the forum members to decide who's the bitch here.


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Sorry ladies not read your posts once the bickering started but I will put my half penny in for what its worth.

I've worked dogs for security, obedience and showing I've ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS used a check for over 30 yrs chain I show my dogs on a loose check or half check chain. Might be longer but the gun dogs my family used for shooting used to spend more time walking to heal without a lead so can't remember, oh thinking back it was more likely to be a bit of twine setup like a check chain same as we did with the cattle etc.

Fact of the matter is a dog PULLING period is going to damage its windpipe regardless of type of device used around its neck. A loose check chain gives the dog more freedom around the neck with the added benefit of remaining both safe and under control, they slip collars more readily than a check chain when badly fitted and of course the dog constantly pulling.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

And that's the reason why I'm using a check chain at the minute. I've just taken on a 10 month old GSD who is bloody strong and appears to have had no discipline in his life at all. Put quite simply he pulled like a train and spent the whole time he was out wheezing because he was literally choking himself on a normal collar or a half check which made no difference at all. 

I'm using a choke chain made up of long wide links, similar to that used by the police and I'm using it correctly. He walks very well now, but when he gets excited and begins to pull it just needs me to check him and he comes back in to heel and walks properly. 

As I said at the beginning, I think that as long as they are being used correctly, there's no reason to view these chains as cruel.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I note the change from CHOKE to CHECK here.

I wont stoop to the level of responding to the insinuation I dont have my own beliefs, I have to back up my sisters. I am 32, not 13. Some of you may not have made that leap yet.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I used the term "check" in my last post because that is how they're referred to nowadays - not choke. I presume the reason is because if they are used correctly that's what they do! And before you pass any more comments like I've used choke before, that was because this is how the thread is titled.

Now perhaps you would explain what difference that makes?

Not sure what leap you mean?


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## samurai (Sep 9, 2009)

People will do what they want to do every time regardless of some one elses opinion. i don't use chains, haltis, stop pulls or any other tool like that for training. i think in particular haltis can be very uncomfortable for a dog if badly fitted as they only fit well on certain dog breeds due to face shape, they can pull on their eyes and unless used properly (a popular word) the dog will still pull! half checks are useful if a dog is an escape artist. personally i like regular body harnesses, and as long as a dog is walking on a loose lead (not nec by my side) thats fine with me.

i agree that check/choke chains are more often than not used incorrectly as some owners seem to think if they put one on a dog it automatically won't pull, or they do yank hard. this has a negative either strangling or painful effect. used with just a check by an experienced person maybe.

personally i would never ever use one as it is a punishment method used severly or correctly (how ever you sugar coat it). i don't think they should be for sale in shops for just anyone to buy. 

The same result can be achieved with a non punishment method......


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## Someboy (Mar 31, 2008)

Hi, 

i don't do that many posts but thought I would add my pennies worth.:whistling2:

Lets be very clear Check or Choke? It is only a Choke chain when there is a moron on the end of the lead causing it to choke the dog!

As with anything, the check chain has to be used correctly. In fact it has to be put on the dog correctly, the correct way round so it releases properly. ( I have met alot of people who do not even know this)

The check chain has been used for a number of years and you will never hear of cases whereby they have been used correctly and no injury has ever occured to the dog cause that's boring isn't it!?

I personally do not like halti's.(Just my opinion) I think the straps are far to near the animals eyes and I do not like the restraint of the animals muzzle, but people will use halti's which is fine but injury can occur to the dog with this aswell!!!

In short, the only thing that can make any collar, check chain or halti dangerous to the dog is the person who is holiding the lead!!

We love our dogs. Why can't we love each other? :lol2:

:no1::no1::no1::no1::no1::no1:


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## samurai (Sep 9, 2009)

i know of an incident where a dog owner used a halti with a longline. the dog ran to the end of it and broke its neck, i don't like them either! also yes they look very uncomfortable.

Chains should come with instructions if they are going to be sold, like haltis do, explaining how to correctly fit and use them.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

i use haltis on my huskies but only for road crossing 

i would never attatch a long lead to the halti 


as soon as im away from the busy roads the halti comes off 

i use harnesses also so i have doubled ended leads 

if you get the correct size and fitting halti and use them properly like the check chains then you shouldnt cause any injury to your dog


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

samurai said:


> i know of an incident where a dog owner used a halti with a longline. the dog ran to the end of it and broke its neck, i don't like them either! also yes they look very uncomfortable.
> 
> *Chains should come with instructions if they are going to be sold, like haltis do, explaining how to correctly fit and use them.*


I agree! Too many people probably use them incorrectly because there are no instructions on how they should be used. They are just hanging up on the hooks with the rest of the leads with nothing to say how they are to be used. How can someone be expected to use something in the correct way when these things (not just chains) have nothing to say how they are to be used?


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

samurai said:


> Chains should come with instructions if they are going to be sold, like haltis do, explaining how to correctly fit and use them.


That only helps if people A. understand how to use them and B. bother to read the instructions! IMO all 'training tools' (even down to anti-pull harnesses and the like) should only be supplied by a trainer and everybody who wants one should be made to sit through a class and be *shown* properly how to use one. 



Emmaj said:


> if you get the correct size and fitting halti and use them properly like the check chains then you shouldnt cause any injury to your dog


The unfortunate part is that, quite simply, people don't. :lol2: And people use them for Brachycephalic dogs and that is where problems lie.



SilverSteno said:


> I agree! Too many people probably use them incorrectly because there are no instructions on how they should be used. They are just hanging up on the hooks with the rest of the leads with nothing to say how they are to be used. How can someone be expected to use something in the correct way when these things (not just chains) have nothing to say how they are to be used?


And because Joe and his mate use them incorrectly and get 'results'! Just like the people who use slip leads and once their dogs are deprived so highly of Oxygen they obviously have to stop pulling or else they'll suffocate, and the owner sees this as a result and tells X to get one an the same happens over and over, again this is where problems lie. Not the 'training tool' itself, it's the hands of the owner.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> That only helps if people A. understand how to use them and B. bother to read the instructions! IMO all 'training tools' (even down to anti-pull harnesses and the like) should only be supplied by a trainer and everybody who wants one should be made to sit through a class and be *shown* properly how to use one.
> 
> 
> The unfortunate part is that, quite simply, people don't. :lol2: And people use them for Brachycephalic dogs and that is where problems lie.
> ...


 
i didnt start using them on mine till they were a year old and i took them to pets @ home with me to have them fitted to make sure they were the right fit (that was hardwork and amusing:lol2


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## samurai (Sep 9, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> That only helps if people A. understand how to use them and B. bother to read the instructions! IMO all 'training tools' (even down to anti-pull harnesses and the like) should only be supplied by a trainer and everybody who wants one should be made to sit through a class and be *shown* properly how to use one.
> 
> 
> The unfortunate part is that, quite simply, people don't. :lol2: And people use them for Brachycephalic dogs and that is where problems lie.
> ...


 
I agree but at least having access to instructions would be better than just selling them without. they should be made harder for people to buy and yes ideally only sold by trainers that know how to use them without causing unneccesary harm, and only after they are sure the person is using it right, and monitor results too.

But on the other hand the results they achieve can be achieved using training.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> And people use them for Brachycephalic dogs and that is where problems lie.


Having had head halters on 3 brachycephalic dogs here I don't understand what "problems lie" there? You need to pick a brand to suit and use that, but the same can be said for any dog. 

Most head halters come with instructions not to use on a long line, those that don't absolutely should I agree. Someone said earlier that neck problems occur with any pulling dog regardless of tool and that just isn't the case. They happen with choke chains regardless of how they're used (as the yanking motion of a check is as much an issue as the "choking" of a badly used one). If they don't occur, that is out of luck rather than management. They happen with wrongly used head halters. The difference is, used properly following correct procedure, a halti won't hurt a dog. They don't suit some dogs (and I don't go on breed there as different brands fit different types, I have tried many). 

I don't believe that the faults of a head halter (I'm not denying they exist) outweigh the problems caused by using "choke/check/yank/whatever you want to call them" chains. We are focusing on physical effects only too, I don't believe any form of physical punishment is an emotionally or physically healthy way to train a dog. 

Saying that, any positive tool is only as good as the person using it. Nothing replaces long term, hard work lead training on a flat collar, whether that's a halti or a choke chain. Choking doesn't teach them what good behaviour replaces the bad they got punished for. Haltis don't teach them not to pull.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Emmaj said:


> i didnt start using them on mine till they were a year old and *i took them to pets @ home with me to have them fitted to make sure they were the right fit *(that was hardwork and amusing:lol2


You're a braver person then me! :lol2:



samurai said:


> But on the other hand the results they achieve can be achieved using training.


Sorry I don't get this bit? :crazy:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> You're a braver person then me! :lol2:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry I don't get this bit? :crazy:


 
I blind folded them going past the bunnies :lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

feorag said:


> Sorry - I hold the belief that a choke chain used correctly is used to "check" the dog, not choke it. As Habu's post says - it's a jerk and instant release method of checking the dog's behaviour.
> 
> I agree used incorrectly or for the wrong purpose or by an idiot it's a dangerous tool, but that doesn't make it a dangerous tool for all!


 
choke/check chains do one thing and one thing only in my opinion, that is...

it teaches a young dog to focus... focus on it's master/pack leader... it teaches an otherwise distracted dog to focus on his master on command... instead of the environmental sensory candy around it...

dogs are useless unless you have their attention and having their attention when you call them or give a command is a learned skill...


a dog not taught to passively respond and focus on their commands just hears 'blah-blah-blah' from their masters...

a choke chain serves a small but important role to a young dog... to develop a habit of diverting it's attention to it's master when he/she speaks and gives instruction...

puppies have ADD almost... everything is new and their senses are constantly flooded by external information that they find it hard to focus on much of anything... and teaching a young dog to focus well is important... not teaching it to focus just re-enforces the scatter-brained excitement they have for all the white noise about them....


... ever notice how most dogs WALK their owners instead of the other way around?

ever notice owners pleading with their dogs... having conversations that are just "blah-blah-blah" to a dog??

... that one skill, to divert a dog's attention and focus on his master and the commands given is a very crucial thing... imho...: victory:


a distracted dog is a dog that will never realise it's full potential...


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

I just did a huge post but lost it due to my log in session timing out and due to being too tired and not feeling like this debate is going to go anywhere I shall just type up a small fraction of what I did...



KathyM said:


> Having had head halters on 3 brachycephalic dogs here I don't understand what "problems lie" there? You need to pick a brand to suit and use that, but the same can be said for any dog.


Haltis (as in, ACTUAL Haltis, not head collars) are no made to suit Brachy Cephalic dogs, in many cases they end up pulling down on the nose and sliding up against the eyes.



> Someone said earlier that neck problems occur with any pulling dog regardless of tool and that just isn't the case.


A strong, tense, pulling dog on the end of a flat buckle collar is more dangerous then a properly used 'choke'/check chain.



> They happen with choke chains regardless of how they're used (as the yanking motion of a check is as much an issue as the "choking" of a badly used one).





> The difference is, used properly following correct procedure, a halti won't hurt a dog. They don't suit some dogs (and I don't go on breed there as different brands fit different types, I have tried many).


A properly used 'choke'/check chain will NOT hurt a dog, that is as far from the aim as can be! 



> Saying that, any positive tool is only as good as the person using it. Nothing replaces long term, hard work lead training on a flat collar, whether that's a halti or a choke chain. Choking doesn't teach them what good behaviour replaces the bad they got punished for. Haltis don't teach them not to pull.


'Choke'/check chains are not for choking a dog, it's debateable whether the check chain is infact a 'training tool' at all. Though I don't understand where lead training comes into it?


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Yes, but you don't have to yank a dog to get it to focus - same can be achieved humanely with clicker training a "watch" cue. :2thumb:


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## samurai (Sep 9, 2009)

HABU said:


> choke/check chains do one thing and one thing only in my opinion, that is...
> 
> it teaches a young dog to focus... focus on it's master/pack leader... it teaches an otherwise distracted dog to focus on his master on command... instead of the environmental sensory candy around it...
> 
> ...


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## samurai (Sep 9, 2009)

KathyM said:


> Yes, but you don't have to yank a dog to get it to focus - same can be achieved humanely with clicker training a "watch" cue. :2thumb:


YES!!!! thats exactly my point!!!!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

KathyM said:


> Yes, but you don't have to yank a dog to get it to focus - same can be achieved humanely with clicker training a "watch" cue. :2thumb:


 
clicker?

dogs seek clicks by nature?

click all day long with a hard-headed, horse-necked dog...

he just hears clicks till you teach it to associate the clicker with focusing on you.....

then what about when you don't have a clicker?... you have to carry one around?

a dog should look dead at you when you call it's name and shut out the rest of the world... focus on you utterly...


clicker?


teach a dog two things at first... his name/focus and NO!... no means stop and his name means look and listen to me (his master).

those two things are paramount in my humble opinion... all is lost till a pup knows what his name means and what no means... one can go on to more complex things from there...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

samurai said:


> HABU said:
> 
> 
> > choke/check chains do one thing and one thing only in my opinion, that is...
> ...


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## samurai (Sep 9, 2009)

(Habu-he just hears clicks till you teach it to associate the clicker with focusing on you.....)


Correct, its known as dog training!
You fase the clicker out as they learn stuff, its for teaching new things and getting the dog to associate the click with exactly what they have just done. You do need to teach them how to recognise its meaning, yes, but it can be done in minutes.

Your reply made it sound as if you think the click means look at me, this is not how it works, and if it was then it would be pretty rubbish, esp if you'd forgetton it.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

HABU said:


> clicker?
> 
> dogs seek clicks by nature?
> 
> ...


LOL no, you haven't got how it works there. A clicker is not a remote control, you don't point and click to get a behaviour. One habituates a dog to learn that click means reward is coming. One doesn't click at a dog to get it to look at you, one clicks for them looking at you. The joy of teaching this cue with a clicker is that you teach the dog "watch" means "watch until I release you" (same with sit, down, stand, etc, making "stay" obsolete). You do this by lengthening the time they have to watch before they get a click (it's slightly more complicated than this but just as easy in practice and easier to explain simplified). 

I would highly recommend reading Morgan Spector's Clicker Training for Obedience. This book is a great read for anyone interested in any form of training and shows that positive doesn't have to mean "fluffy" or lenient.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

samurai said:


> (Habu-he just hears clicks till you teach it to associate the clicker with focusing on you.....)
> 
> 
> Correct, its known as dog training!
> ...


 
hey, if it works then great...

most folks can't walk a dog right let alone do any advanced behavioral stuff...

dog training is more for the humans than the dog... people are typically clueless when it comes to dogs anyway....


you'll have some fool out there with a pup clicking his heart out and getting frustrated because the dog doesn't get it... then that old clicker gets toss out with the trash....


... and the dog doesn't learn... 

my old doberman knew his commands both verbally and in hand gestures...

... unfailingly i might add... a clicker in his case would be very useful... as he was already taught to focus and listen... and obey...

our dog now is very poorly trained because it's a family dog and not mine exclusively...

clickers can be good tools just as much as choke chains i am saying... but both are useless or even detrimental when in the wrong hands....

i can envision a dog owner with a clicker... those owners that always beg their dogs to do right... they'll lose the clicker in a heartbeat...

... now those training collars with the spikes i have to say are terrible in most all situations... you think choke chains are bad!

idiots with those piked deals are a travesty... imho..: victory:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

KathyM said:


> LOL no, you haven't got how it works there. A clicker is not a remote control, you don't point and click to get a behaviour. One habituates a dog to learn that click means reward is coming. One doesn't click at a dog to get it to look at you, one clicks for them looking at you. The joy of teaching this cue with a clicker is that you teach the dog "watch" means "watch until I release you" (same with sit, down, stand, etc, making "stay" obsolete). You do this by lengthening the time they have to watch before they get a click (it's slightly more complicated than this but just as easy in practice and easier to explain simplified).
> 
> I would highly recommend reading Morgan Spector's Clicker Training for Obedience. This book is a great read for anyone interested in any form of training and shows that positive doesn't have to mean "fluffy" or lenient.


 
i'm not discounting them at all...

the military use them...


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I think the theory behind them is like the Faberge egg of dog training, absolutely brilliant. Fantastic for getting a good working bond. You're right that in the wrong hands they're useful, wouldn't say they were detrimental themselves, but not learning to use them properly would be a terrible shame. I sound like a religious nut but if it weren't for clicker training I would not have dogs now, I'd have sent Dharma back and called it a day. Bloody lifesaver for toilet training too, getting that wee or poo on cue!


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## samurai (Sep 9, 2009)

Like i've said b4 i don't use anything like chains which includes pinch collars, shock collars, stop pulls, haltis etc. Just a regular harness, longline, clicker and treats thats all i think is needed. 

It may take a little longer to train a dog using a clicker than a chain but thats not a problem for me. Once they get, they get it! However if someones timing is out or the dog is not being watched properly then bad habits can be clicked for by mistake.

The clicker has the added benefit of once the dog knows what it means it can be used to teach virtually any new cue, where a chains use is limited and the dog may just respond from fear than actually understand what the owner is trying to get across.

Lets stop bickering whats right or wrong because we clearly all have different views, and what works for me may not with you. It seems every tool can be used well or poorly.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

All my pups leave to new homes with a full training book and a clicker.
I go through the basics with them and they take on board that it has to be straight away and not just after. I start the pups off so that they already know what is expected off them aswell.
I also explain positive methods of reinforcing good behaviour and I also make sure they are fully aware of dog law and how dogs must behave in public as to not cause issues and problems.

I think if breeders themselves made sure people know what is truely involved in keeping and training a dog, then there would be a lot less poorly trained dogs that have been ruined by owners not taking the time as young pups. Training starts from day 1. Not when pup is 6 months old and totally out of hand.
My 14 week old Lab walks at heel and sits and waits at roads and while waiting for my daughter at school. He will hopefully be my oh's Field Trails dog so he has to learn how to behave in large public situations. Tho I have to repeatly tell children he is a working dog and how they should approach him after first asking me. Always really firm about it and on parents who allow their children to run up to strange dogs without stopping and asking an owner if they can.

A lot is down to training people aswell as the dog to give a positive balance and a happy well mannered dog.


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

KathyM said:


> Bloody lifesaver for toilet training too, getting that wee or poo on cue!


:2thumb: Agreed! I did some research on clicker training before I got my dog as a puppy, bought Karen Pryor's book and a clicker, and used it from Day 1 for toilet training. It was so easy! and he picked it up very quickly.

Since then, over the years I've used it for many things - from teaching him basic obedience throughout our KC Good Citizen training (passed Bronze & Silver same day), to getting over his fears of various things, and for Heelwork to Music.


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## dopey.rachel (Jun 17, 2008)

I've not read all the pages but I do know that alot of police dog trainers still use the full check collar as my friend took her GSD to a police dog trainer as she works for the police and that was what they recommended. Its worked brill for her dog but it does need to be used correctly or it doesn't have the effect it needs.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I know it's hard to believe, but police dog handlers don't have the best track record when it comes to training or welfare of their animals. I always imagined they'd be at the forefront of dog training but sadly, they're about 20 years behind.


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

KathyM said:


> I know it's hard to believe, but police dog handlers don't have the best track record when it comes to training or welfare of their animals. I always imagined they'd be at the forefront of dog training but sadly, they're about 20 years behind.


I believe only last week or the week before, one was had up for cruelty to his dog (and his previous dog bit him too). Not to mention the chap who let his police dogs bake to death in the summer.

On the other hand, I think the trainers who are working with sniffer dogs and search & rescue are a great deal more enlightened.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

HABU said:


> clicker?
> 
> dogs seek clicks by nature?
> 
> ...


 
You don't have to use a clicker to clicker train. You can choose to use word or a 'clicky' sound you make yourself. I guess like people do when they ride horses... 

If you need to get your dogs attention using a choke (or check, if you prefer to call it that) chain, then what do you do to get it's attention when it is off lead? And if you can get it's attention when it is off lead, why not use the same method when it is on lead? 

If a dog has learnt to walk to heel or on a loose lead correctly and well, it doesn't need much reminding. I have to walk my three, largish, dogs with my pushchair as I have a young child. They all know their 'place' to walk so we can walk along easily, and if they get 'out of place' I simply need to say the name of whatever dog it might be, and they get back into place again. It's simple. All on flat collars. 

The majority of people who use choke chains ARE choking the dog and do not use them 'correctly'.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

temeraire said:


> I believe only last week or the week before, one was had up for cruelty to his dog (and his previous dog bit him too). Not to mention the chap who let his police dogs bake to death in the summer.
> 
> *On the other hand, I think the trainers who are working with sniffer dogs and search & rescue are a great deal more enlightened*.


I agree. We have security dogs here and sniffer dogs. The security dogs are trained the 'old fashioned' way and to be honest, are only under control by 'force' and look depressed most of the time. The sniffer dogs are trained using reward based methods (balls usually) and are extremely motivated and always wagging their tails and happy. The relationship between dog and handler is very apparent as a good one, and out of the two groups of dogs, the sniffers are absolutely the most 'under control'.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

Our Lab pup is 14 weeks old and walking at heel on a loose lead. Before he'd finished his vaccinations, we had already started his training off lead as we have a mooooooooooosive garden. He was trained to walk along side hubby and whenever he stopped to fill poultry drinkers or fill up feed hoppers, Dexter was asked to sit. This was started the day he came home. Soon as he was covered to go out on a lead in public, he was already completely used to walking at heel. No clicker, No lead just genuine body communication and hand signals.
Dexter is being trained to be a working Gundog and hubby is hoping to do Field Trails with him. Ok so he had an AMAZING start off in life with a Fabulous breeder which ment that it has been very easy to train him. 

We do have 15 dogs (7 adult NI, 5 Ni pups, 1 staff x collie, 1 Springer Spanial and 1 Choc Lab) Years ago when we just had 7 dogs, I would take all 7 out at once. 3 GSD's and 4 NI. 3 on one arm, 4 on he other. Be able to walk along with the pack, not have anyone pulling. Then free walking around Sale water park, bit of swimming in summer etc. People used to come round a corner to be faced with all these big dogs and all I had to say was 'HERE' and 'SIT' and all would and people would stare amazed. Even with horses, cattle, anything.
The relationship we have with our dogs is more than them just being pets.
They are an extension of our family unit. Because of this all our dogs have been positively trained with out need for collars as pups, the bond created because of a want to be with you because you the owner are far more interesting than everything else. Understanding each individual dog and what that dogs nature is like and working with that and not against. Like with our Springer, she is very Ball focused and loves Search and Find games. So all good training was always rewarded with a Search and Find Session. It didn't take her long to figure out that the fast she listened and responded to her training, that she would get to play her fave game.

However, when someone screws up the basics of a puppy, training has to be changed to enable that dog to become it's own potential. A dangerous dog that is aggressive towards other dogs and people (if it is not screwed up so much that it can be changed) has to be managed in a far different way. 
Aslong as the training aids are used by a qualified instructor I see no issue. However, Check Chains should never be used by Joe Public as in general, Joe Public are thick. I have many times gone up to people while working in store and told them that the Check Chain they were using was on incorrectly and that they were crushing the dogs windpipe and still had no control over the dog. I would show them a flat lead and walk their dog up and down and show them what they needed to do. It's amazing how people think it is ok to have a small dog, pulling full length on a check chain don't think that the dog is hurting at all. Ask them to put it on themselves and pull. Funny how they don't want to. 
Many years ago you could buy shock collars in petshops, we had someone come in and ask about them. I am very up front, I don't mince about with my words and said. Here, Try it on yourself. He wasn't willing. So your happy to do this to your dog without knowing yourself what it is like?
Then I would show them far better sound methods rather than brutality.
Again, some dogs it is deemed needed for safety of others, but my then view on that is if your dog is so dangerous that it deems the use of a shock collar, then sorry but the dog is too dangerous and odviously you have screwed up that dogs life which in all fairness has been sentenced to death.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

You can still buy electric shock collars in petshops, ebay, etc.  Breaks my heart how easily available they are as these methods are often a slippery slope - the choke chain doesn't work and you don't want to pay for a behaviourist but you can get a shock collar for £50 and basically sign the dog's death warrant.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Pimperella said:


> Aslong as the training aids are used by a qualified instructor I see no issue. However, Check Chains should never be used by Joe Public as in general, Joe Public are thick. I have many times gone up to people while working in store and told them that the Check Chain they were using was on incorrectly and that they were crushing the dogs windpipe and still had no control over the dog. I would show them a flat lead and walk their dog up and down and show them what they needed to do. It's amazing how people think it is ok to have a small dog, pulling full length on a check chain don't think that the dog is hurting at all. Ask them to put it on themselves and pull. Funny how they don't want to.
> Many years ago you could buy shock collars in petshops, we had someone come in and ask about them. I am very up front, I don't mince about with my words and said. Here, Try it on yourself. He wasn't willing. So your happy to do this to your dog without knowing yourself what it is like?
> Then I would show them far better sound methods rather than brutality.
> Again, some dogs it is deemed needed for safety of others, but my then view on that is if your dog is so dangerous that it deems the use of a shock collar, then sorry but the dog is too dangerous and odviously you have screwed up that dogs life which in all fairness has been sentenced to death.


You go girl! :2thumb: x


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Somebody must explain the clicker to me, why does everybody rave about them?



midori said:


> If you need to get your dogs attention using a choke (or check, if you prefer to call it that) chain, then what do you do to get it's attention when it is off lead?


An untrained dog without good recall and without a good sense of what it's supposed to be watching, etc wouldn't be off lead anyway. The 'choke'/check chain is a tool used only whilst on lead and in training. 



> If a dog has learnt to walk to heel or on a loose lead correctly and well, it doesn't need much reminding. I have to walk my three, largish, dogs with my pushchair as I have a young child. They all know their 'place' to walk so we can walk along easily, and if they get 'out of place' I simply need to say the name of whatever dog it might be, and they get back into place again. It's simple. All on flat collars.



Sorry, I don't understand where leash training and walking comes into it?


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

L4L - I rave about it as it works, and it works reliably (when used correctly) and it's fun for me and for the dogs. I never have to punish a dog to train them, I absolutely love it. I would highly recommend reading any of the Angela Stockdale booklets (eg. What Makes You Click) cos they're very cheap and very basic info in a good way for handing out in classes etc. If you want to go further into obedience techniques then you can't beat Morgan Spector's Clicker Training for Obedience. For work with aggressive/nervous dogs I have heard wonders about Click for Calm (can't remember the author sorry).


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> Somebody must explain the clicker to me, why does everybody rave about them?


Because it works. And it works quick.



> An untrained dog without good recall and without a good sense of what it's supposed to be watching, etc wouldn't be off lead anyway. The 'choke'/check chain is a tool used only whilst on lead and in training.


So how do you train a dog recall with a choke chain? I dont think my dog would want to come back if I used one :lol2:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

KathyM said:


> L4L - I rave about it as it works, and it works reliably (when used correctly) and it's fun for me and for the dogs. I never have to punish a dog to train them, I absolutely love it. I would highly recommend reading any of the Angela Stockdale booklets (eg. What Makes You Click) cos they're very cheap and very basic info in a good way for handing out in classes etc. If you want to go further into obedience techniques then you can't beat Morgan Spector's Clicker Training for Obedience. For work with aggressive/nervous dogs I have heard wonders about Click for Calm (can't remember the author sorry).


I get that, but what does the clicked actually do? :blush: I know it's the click-reward thing because I've used it with rabbits and ferrets, but I don't see how it's very effective apart from with potty training and retrieving as you can click for treat as soon as the dog does what it's supposed to whilst it's still far away if that makes sense? :blush:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> Because it works. And it works quick.
> 
> 
> 
> So how do you train a dog recall with a choke chain? I dont think my dog would want to come back if I used one :lol2:


You don't train for leash training or recall on a 'choke'/check chain, a 'choke'/check chain is used only whilst the dog is on a suitably sized leash, doesn't pull and it's used to get the dogs attention quickly. 

Does clicker training work? Or does verbal training work?!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

You train your dog to recognise click = treat. Then you can click when your dog does something right at a distance, and he knows he's going to get a treat, therefore you can reward instantly, without having to follow them around with treats at arms length.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> I get that, but what does the clicked actually do? :blush: I know it's the click-reward thing because I've used it with rabbits and ferrets, but I don't see how it's very effective apart from with potty training and retrieving as you can click for treat as soon as the dog does what it's supposed to whilst it's still far away if that makes sense? :blush:


I think maybe you are finding the clicker concept confusing because in a previous post you said:



> you teach the dog that what it is doing is wrong but first you have to get said dog out of the state of mind


Clicker works on the principal if teaching the dog what you DO want it to do not what you DON'T, eg you dont teach the dog not to pull, you teach it to walk by your side and since your dog can't pull if it's walking by your side, there shouldn't be any need to teach it not to pull.

Look at it this way, if you went into new job and they only trained you what not to do,but never taught you what you should be doing, how difficult it would be to learn what they did want you to do?

The click marks the exact moment when the dog is doing what is required, so even if you only get a split second of good behaviour, you can click - which tells the dog 'that's what I want and that is what's gonna get you a reward'.

Does that help?


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> I get that, but what does the clicked actually do? :blush: I know it's the click-reward thing because I've used it with rabbits and ferrets, but I don't see how it's very effective apart from with potty training and retrieving as you can click for treat as soon as the dog does what it's supposed to whilst it's still far away if that makes sense? :blush:


A clicker makes a noise that the dog learns to recognise as a marker. Basically the click tells the animal "That exact thing you did at that exact time is right, reward is on its way". Obviously a dog has to be conditioned to the clicker first, we used to call this "loading" the clicker (essentially the very first step is just clicking and treating repeatedly until the dog pairs the noise with reward). 

Rules are one click = one reward (this can vary in amount and type but you can't be a cheap date!) - once you've clicked you can't take it back so if you've timed it wrong or clicked wrongly that's your mistake not the dog's, and they still get their reward. Good way to practice is for someone to bounce a ball and you practice clicking as the ball hits the ground. Too soon and the dog only performs the beginnings of a behaviour, too late and the dog isn't learning the exact point. 

It is not a remote, it doesn't make the dog work, it is a marker only. Some say you can use another noise, whether vocally or otherwise, this is probably true but the clicker is very precise compared to a vocal marker. 

As with other methods, you tend to train a dog to perform a cue in stages - for example with retrieves, rolls, weaves, etc. The clicker comes in very useful for this. 

I think I get what you mean about clicking to bring them back to you - some use that method for "come", I personally used a mix of clicking for looking at me, then them realising they had to come back for the reward. Some people would say that's cheating but I then went on to use a whistle for the cue and click and treat once they are sat in front of me with my hand on the throat of their collar, I did this in stages with the clicker. When training in stages, you prolly know already, but it's a case of working on one stage until it's reliable - moving back a step if they're not "getting" it, and only moving forward to the next after it's really reliable. 

For fun I taught Dharma "rollover", I had to do this with a lure (a rag toy) but essentially it was taught in stages with the clicker, first the "down", then following the lure of hand and rag rope, then roll onto back, then full roll, then full roll and back into a good down position. This was when I was first learning clicker, I don't tend to do "tricks" with them (for some reason doesn't feel right to me) but also learned to use a target stick by teaching Dharma to turn the lightswitches on and off. :lol2:
For heelwork, I taught a "watch" cue initially. Like many other cues I have taught with clicker, the joy of this is that "watch" (or "sit", "down", "stand", etc etc) means "watch until I release you" as you essentially wait longer and longer (over time) to click (and if you have taught them the power of the clicker well, they will keep performing to get the click), so it really helped with leadwork. Obviously if they break before the click, you move back a step. 

Dharma is so funny to watch when the clicker's out now, as she's getting on a bit but also has been trained with it all her life, so you give her a "sit" cue and she sits, waits, shuffles straighter, waits, shuffles again to make sure she's getting it perfect, looks down to check she's straight, then shuffles again as if to say "Is that better?". She was never meant to be a competition obedience dog and I'm sure her constantly trying to please by shuffling her arse would be laughed out of the ring (as would her high speed recalls over distance, sliding into a sit in front of me) but it shows how much they enjoy what they're doing and how motivated they are. I couldn't get Dharma to stand on 4 paws when we first met, so her life is testament to clicker training, without it I'd have sent her back. I can even get her to do minor agility now (which we'd both have loved to have pursued but she was too big for the tunnel and is now old and stiff lol).


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

I really don't get where clicker training has come into a 'choke' chain discussion though, because from the way *everybody* has explained it, a clicker is not a replacement, and couldn't be used as such, for a 'choke' chain. But oh well, what works for one doesn't work for another and all that. : victory:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Clicker training is an alternative to check chains, that's why it came up. :2thumb:

The idea is marking and rewarding good behaviour, not "checking" or punishing bad. A choke chain cannot do that, it completely fails to teach a dog anything as an alternative to the undesired behaviour. A clicker cannot punish (unless one used it to mark that a punishment was coming, which would be ridiculous lol), but when you're training with positive methods you don't need to - you're setting the dog up for success not failure. I think it's quite understandable that when there is a method that removes any perceived "need" to use a check chain or other punishment, that it is put forward in a thread about their use. When you have trained with positive methods, especially ones as successful as clicker training, there simply is no need or place for punishment and there is more success. :2thumb:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Clicker training is an alternative to check chains, that's why it came up. :2thumb:
> 
> The idea is marking and rewarding good behaviour, not "checking" or punishing bad. A choke chain cannot do that, it completely fails to teach a dog anything as an alternative to the undesired behaviour. A clicker cannot punish (unless one used it to mark that a punishment was coming, which would be ridiculous lol), but when you're training with positive methods you don't need to - you're setting the dog up for success not failure. I think it's quite understandable that when there is a method that removes any perceived "need" to use a check chain or other punishment, that it is put forward in a thread about their use. When you have trained with positive methods, especially ones as successful as clicker training, there simply is no need or place for punishment and there is more success. :2thumb:


How is it an alternative? A check chain isn't for teaching a dog NOT to do something (how could it?), it's for taking a dogs mind off of something and redirecting it's attention, something no amount of "watch me" and clicking will do when originally training a dog.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> How is it an alternative? A check chain isn't for teaching a dog NOT to do something (how could it?), it's for taking a dogs mind off of something and redirecting it's attention, something no amount of "watch me" and clicking will do when originally training a dog.


What it comes down to is having a dog which is motivated to do what its owner asks of it - which is what you get with a clicker trained dog. Anyway the clicker supporters have done a good job of explaining the theories and technique behind it. I would like to know how people think that a choke/check chain works? If it isn't a punishment, what exactly is the learning mechanism? We know that a clicker means a reward is coming, what does the noise of the chain mean and how does the dog learn what it means?


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

So I'm assuming then that you "check" a dog when it's *not* pulling if it's just to get attention, and a dog isn't "checked" when it pulls? Just trying to build a mental picture of how you are using it. I have used choke chains, badly and "properly" (sorry but both the same to me but I'm trying not to be onesided), and they are an aversive - yes aversives can get a dog's attention but so can a million other things. 

For the purpose of the following, "you" means anyone training a dog, or "one" if you prefer but it makes me sound too posh lol. If your dog doesn't reliably watch you when you give the watch cue (regardless of how you have trained it), you haven't trained them to watch properly - if you need a chain (or any other "distraction") to get them to watch you, you have not trained them a watch cue. ETA: I know it sounds like me bleating on, but in the case of clicker training, it creates a more motivated dog, one that goes out of its way to do what is required to get the reward, this is not achieved with methods that focus only on stopping undesirable behaviour, and not something easily explained to someone who's not worked with a positively motivated animal. If you had taught a watch cue reliably with a clicker, there would be no need to use a choke chain to get a dog's attention - you would use the watch cue? So yes it does remove the need for a choke chain, unless you are using the chain as positive punishment, which you say you're not.

You also have not said what you do once you have the dog's attention? How do you teach a dog to walk to heel if the choke chain is only for getting their attention? I'm open to your experience (totally, I love talking training and consider myself a beginner), but I believe with a lot of respect that you're wrong in your perception of the clicker - it does removes the need for a choke chain, but then if you have never used one, or never used one properly (and assuming from your posts asking how one uses one that one of those is the case), then you might not understand *how*. I would be happy to demonstrate (in an unbiased fashion) if you're ever up this way.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Evie said:


> What it comes down to is having a dog which is motivated to do what its owner asks of it - which is what you get with a clicker trained dog. Anyway the clicker supporters have done a good job of explaining the theories and technique behind it. I would like to know how people think that a choke/check chain works? If it isn't a punishment, what exactly is the learning mechanism? We know that a clicker means a reward is coming, what does the noise of the chain mean and how does the dog learn what it means?


It's nothing to do with noise. The point of a check chain is to bring the dogs attention back to the person on the end of the leash, sometimes even used in clicker training dare I say it, to teach the 'watch me' or 'leave it' command when a dog is easily distracted. It's not a direct correction, it's not a punishment and it's definitely not a tool to be used for leash training, it's to redirect a dogs attention and should only ever be used as such. It would be almost impossible to use a check chain as punishment.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> It would be almost impossible to use a check chain as punishment.


I suspect even someone pro-choke chain would not say that and expect any rational person to believe it. Is it a typo?


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> It's nothing to do with noise. The point of a check chain is to bring the dogs attention back to the person on the end of the leash, sometimes even used in clicker training dare I say it, to teach the 'watch me' or 'leave it' command when a dog is easily distracted. It's not a direct correction, it's not a punishment and it's definitely not a tool to be used for leash training, it's to redirect a dogs attention and should only ever be used as such. It would be almost impossible to use a check chain as punishment.


If a dog hears a noise but nothing happens as a result of that noise, it will quickly learn to ignore that noise. What I want to know is what the noise of the chain means to the dog and how it learns what the noise means?

Clciker should *never* be used to get the dogs attention, it is used purely to mark a behaviour that you want to reinforce. The dog is taught that the sound of the clicker means food is coming. What has it been taught to associate with the sound of the chain and how?


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

KathyM said:


> So I'm assuming then that you "check" a dog when it's *not* pulling if it's just to get attention, and a dog isn't "checked" when it pulls? Just trying to build a mental picture of how you are using it. I have used choke chains, badly and "properly" (sorry but both the same to me but I'm trying not to be onesided), and they are an aversive - yes aversives can get a dog's attention but so can a million other things.
> 
> For the purpose of the following, "you" means anyone training a dog, or "one" if you prefer but it makes me sound too posh lol. If your dog doesn't reliably watch you when you give the watch cue (regardless of how you have trained it), you haven't trained them to watch properly - if you need a chain (or any other "distraction") to get them to watch you, you have not trained them a watch cue. ETA: I know it sounds like me bleating on, but in the case of clicker training, it creates a more motivated dog, one that goes out of its way to do what is required to get the reward, this is not achieved with methods that focus only on stopping undesirable behaviour, and not something easily explained to someone who's not worked with a positively motivated animal. If you had taught a watch cue reliably with a clicker, there would be no need to use a choke chain to get a dog's attention - you would use the watch cue? So yes it does remove the need for a choke chain, unless you are using the chain as positive punishment, which you say you're not.
> 
> You also have not said what you do once you have the dog's attention? How do you teach a dog to walk to heel if the choke chain is only for getting their attention? I'm open to your experience (totally, I love talking training and consider myself a beginner), but I believe with a lot of respect that you're wrong in your perception of the clicker - it does removes the need for a choke chain, but then if you have never used one, or never used one properly (and assuming from your posts asking how one uses one that one of those is the case), then you might not understand *how*. I would be happy to demonstrate (in an unbiased fashion) if you're ever up this way.


You can't teach a dog 'watch me' if you haven't got the dogs attention, and that's what the check chain is all about. If a dog will happily walk by heel and respond to a 'watch me' just simply by training whilst young then fantastic, but for a dog with a short attention span check chains come in handy, when both training and walking. I have used a clicker before, because that was the owners preferred choice for the dog, and understand the point but what I'm saying is that a clicker doesn't really teach the dog anything, only the owner can do that, in which case "good boy/girl" has pretty much the same effect. : victory:


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> It would be almost impossible to use a check chain as punishment.


When I first started dog training, in the early 1980's, we were taught to use choke chains, and taught that to stop a dog pulling, one allowed it to pull as much as it liked then haul on the lead and yank it off its feet! :gasp: After a few of those, it soon learned not to pull... :banghead: 
If that's not using a choke chain as punishment, then what is it?


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

KathyM said:


> I suspect even someone pro-choke chain would not say that and expect any rational person to believe it. Is it a typo?


No, it'd be no easier to punish with a check chain (again, used properly *waits on getting slagged off* :whistling2 then it would a normal collar due to a check chain putting pressure around the neck as opposed to ON the neck.



Evie said:


> If a dog hears a noise but nothing happens as a result of that noise, it will quickly learn to ignore that noise. What I want to know is what the noise of the chain means to the dog and how it learns what the noise means?
> 
> Clciker should *never* be used to get the dogs attention, it is used purely to mark a behaviour that you want to reinforce. The dog is taught that the sound of the clicker means food is coming. What has it been taught to associate with the sound of the chain and how?


The check chain is _*nothing*_ to do with noise association. *Nothing*. A dog doesn't learn what the noise of a check chain is, and it's un-needed due to that not being what the check chain is about.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

temeraire said:


> When I first started dog training, in the early 1980's, we were taught to use choke chains, and taught that to stop a dog pulling, one allowed it to pull as much as it liked then haul on the lead and yank it off its feet! :gasp: After a few of those, it soon learned not to pull... :banghead:
> If that's not using a choke chain as punishment, then what is it?


THAT is using a check chain improperly. The check chain is *not, under any circumstances* to be used with a dog that pulls, EVER. Nor should it be used to "yank it off its feet".


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> You can't teach a dog 'watch me' if you haven't got the dogs attention, and that's what the check chain is all about. If a dog will happily walk by heel and respond to a 'watch me' just simply by training whilst young then fantastic, but for a dog with a short attention span check chains come in handy, when both training and walking. I have used a clicker before, because that was the owners preferred choice for the dog, and understand the point but what I'm saying is that a clicker doesn't really teach the dog anything, only the owner can do that, in which case "good boy/girl" has pretty much the same effect. : victory:


I saw a 9 year old rescue dog clicker trained to work competitive obedience at the highest level - pretty impressive it was too! 

Anyway that aside, does the dog get a jab in the neck from the chain when the owner wants its attention or not? If not then how does a chain work? Nobody seems to be able to explain this at all :blush:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> You can't teach a dog 'watch me' if you haven't got the dogs attention, and that's what the check chain is all about. If a dog will happily walk by heel and respond to a 'watch me' just simply by training whilst young then fantastic, but for a dog with a short attention span check chains come in handy, when both training and walking. I have used a clicker before, because that was the owners preferred choice for the dog, and understand the point but what I'm saying is that a clicker doesn't really teach the dog anything, only the owner can do that, in which case "good boy/girl" has pretty much the same effect. : victory:


I really think you'd benefit, *if* you genuinely want to learn about clicker use, from seeing one used. I was 150% like you before I learned to use it. I had an unmotivated, stubborn dog with absolutely no attention span, I didn't believe for a second that she would change without me having to manhandle her about. I genuinely nearly gave her back to rescue more than once. I didn't believe for one second that what I considered to be a pansy little toy would ever work - and it doesn't alone, because like any other training aid it's what you do with it that is key. 

What I have been trying to get across is that once your dog is conditioned to a clicker (and once again "you"/"your" being "one"), you don't need to get it's attention, you already have it. If your dog isn't focusing, you "load" your clicker, and start using a watch cue. The dog will do it if you have trained the watch (which is the first cue I teach, it's amazing). I really do get where you're coming from and understand what you're saying, but in my way it's a case of "Dharma...watch" and that's achieved what your choke chain does, so when you said it didn't replace the choke, I had experience that says otherwise. 

As for vocal replacements for clicker (eg "good girl" then treat), the clicker was developed I believe to shorten that, as two words is not as immediate or precise - this means the clicker (or other sound used to mark as accurately as one) reduces the chances of badly timed markers, or marking events wrongly. Once you've got to the end of "good girl", the dog could've moved or started an undesirable behaviour - that certainly was the case with Dharma at first lol. I do still use "good girl" but it's part of the reward, not the marker of the behaviour. 

I really wouldn't harp on about it if I thought it was mediocre fannying about, I'd be an idiot to. : victory:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Evie said:


> I saw a 9 year old rescue dog clicker trained to work competitive obedience at the highest level - pretty impressive it was too!
> 
> Anyway that aside, does the dog get a jab in the neck from the chain when the owner wants its attention or not? If not then how does a chain work? Nobody seems to be able to explain this at all :blush:


No, the dog doesn't get a "jab in the neck". The 'check' is used only to suprise and redirect the dogs attention. Next time you go past a check chain but it around your forearm and give it a quick pull, just enough to surprise you but not enough to hurt. That is what it is used for in dogs. It's not to hurt the dog, it's not to put a negative meaning on things, *it's 100% to redirect a dogs attention. *It doesn't hurt, it's just to surprise the dog into making it quickly turn around to see what it is, and of course with you being in the directon on the other side of the lead, this is when you would start using a command to train the dog out of the check chain.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

KathyM said:


> I really think you'd benefit, *if* you genuinely want to learn about clicker use, from seeing one used. I was 150% like you before I learned to use it. I had an unmotivated, stubborn dog with absolutely no attention span, I didn't believe for a second that she would change without me having to manhandle her about. I genuinely nearly gave her back to rescue more than once. I didn't believe for one second that what I considered to be a pansy little toy would ever work - and it doesn't alone, because like any other training aid it's what you do with it that is key.
> 
> What I have been trying to get across is that once your dog is conditioned to a clicker (and once again "you"/"your" being "one"), you don't need to get it's attention, you already have it. If your dog isn't focusing, you "load" your clicker, and start using a watch cue. The dog will do it if you have trained the watch (which is the first cue I teach, it's amazing). I really do get where you're coming from and understand what you're saying, but in my way it's a case of "Dharma...watch" and that's achieved what your choke chain does, so when you said it didn't replace the choke, I had experience that says otherwise.
> 
> ...


I've seen both, been taught to use both, and used both properly and would still stick by check chains. That's not to say I wouldn't use a clicker at all, however with some dogs a check chain comes in handy to teach the dog to watch and listen. If your dog will look at you with bribing on the first session and will pick up the watch then fantastic, but some dogs wont.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> No, it'd be no easier to punish with a check chain (again, used properly *waits on getting slagged off* :whistling2 then it would a normal collar due to a check chain putting pressure around the neck as opposed to ON the neck.


I can see why you're not as against them as other people if you're lucky enough to never have witnessed someone hanging or choking their dog by their choke chain, or using one improperly in any way whereby the choke is allowed to do as it is named. Of course they can be used as punishment, and of course they have great allowance for that than a flat collar. I completely respect anyone's right to believe differently, but we do have to be honest and realistic - the vast majority of people I see using choke chains are using them in a way the "pro"s would describe as "improperly", and in those cases they are using them as positive punishment.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> I've seen both, been taught to use both, and used both properly and would still stick by check chains. That's not to say I wouldn't use a clicker at all, *however with some dogs a check chain comes in handy to teach the dog to watch and listen*. If your dog will look at you with bribing on the first session and will pick up the watch then fantastic, but some dogs wont.


Can you please explain for a dummy such as me, *how* a choke chain teaches them how to watch and listen? Noone seems to have posted that so far.

I am sorry for assuming you hadn't been taught to use a clicker - you asked how to use one in a previous post, and also made presumptions that would suggest to me that if you had used one you hadn't been taught it properly (not your fault obviously!). All dogs will look at you when you're loading the clicker (they have to face you to get their treat), even if initially it's in your general direction, then you shape the behaviour, it is the quickest and easiest cue to teach in my experience and I have never, not once, met a dog that wouldn't look at you in the first session. :2thumb:


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> No, the dog doesn't get a "jab in the neck". The 'check' is used only to suprise and redirect the dogs attention. Next time you go past a check chain but it around your forearm and give it a quick pull, just enough to surprise you but not enough to hurt. That is what it is used for in dogs. It's not to hurt the dog, it's not to put a negative meaning on things, *it's 100% to redirect a dogs attention. *It doesn't hurt, it's just to surprise the dog into making it quickly turn around to see what it is, and of course with you being in the directon on the other side of the lead, this is when you would start using a command to train the dog out of the check chain.


They are pretty pointless then. A flat collar with a bell attached would do just the same thing. : victory:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

KathyM said:


> I can see why you're not as against them as other people if you're lucky enough to never have witnessed someone hanging or choking their dog by their choke chain, or using one improperly in any way whereby the choke is allowed to do as it is named. Of course they can be used as punishment, and of course they have great allowance for that than a flat collar. I completely respect anyone's right to believe differently, but we do have to be honest and realistic - the vast majority of people I see using choke chains are using them in a way the "pro"s would describe as "improperly", and in those cases they are using them as positive punishment.


I certainly have, probably more so then a lot of people, but just because a few morons using them improperly doesn't mean I have to be against them. I also see loads of people using harnesses, head collars and flat collars what I would call 'improperly', and plenty of idiots with unruly dogs that have been trained 'improperly', doesn't mean I should be against dog owners.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Can you please explain for a dummy such as me, *how* a choke chain teaches them how to watch and listen? Noone seems to have posted that so far.
> 
> I am sorry for assuming you hadn't been taught to use a clicker - you asked how to use one in a previous post, and also made presumptions that would suggest to me that if you had used one you hadn't been taught it properly (not your fault obviously!). All dogs will look at you when you're loading the clicker (they have to face you to get their treat), even if initially it's in your general direction, then you shape the behaviour, it is the quickest and easiest cue to teach in my experience and I have never, not once, met a dog that wouldn't look at you in the first session. :2thumb:


A dog is shocked by a check chain when it's 'checked' and therefore looks at the direction of what ever is happening, in which case 'watch me' and treat would be ideal (and that's how it's often used, shock horror). I wasn't asking 'how' to use one, I really cannot see the difference between a clicker and some other repetetive sound IYGWIM?


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> I certainly have, probably more so then a lot of people, but just because a few morons using them improperly doesn't mean I have to be against them. I also see loads of people using harnesses, head collars and flat collars what I would call 'improperly', and plenty of idiots with unruly dogs that have been trained 'improperly', doesn't mean I should be against dog owners.


Absolutely 100% agree, in fact 150% agree, but I was just responding to you saying this:



LoveForLizards said:


> It would be almost impossible to use a check chain as punishment.


If you have indeed seen it used as such "more so then a lot of people" then you would agree your first statement was erroneous? : victory:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

I was comparing the check chain to a flat collar. A check chain puts pressure *around* the neck, where as a flat collar puts pressure *on* the neck when the dog pulls, that is what I was referring to. I see just as many idiots with chokeing/scoffing/gasping dogs on flat collars as I do check chains, because of the 'check' mechagnism.

And on that note, we'll only be going round in circle more so...I think it's safe to say for RFUK this debate has done well staying as civil as possible :lol2: and everybody will always have different views and opinions. It'd be a boring place if we didn't and some dogs do respond and benefit from what others look down on. Thanks for the debate. : victory:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> *A dog is shocked by a check chain when it's 'checked' and therefore looks at the direction of what ever is happening*, in which case 'watch me' and treat would be ideal (and that's how it's often used, shock horror). I wasn't asking 'how' to use one, I really cannot see the difference between a clicker and some other repetetive sound IYGWIM?


I get what you mean, but I can show you if you ever want, it is so precise. You could have something else that's just as precise, but the idea is the same, it has to be immediate and as fast/precise as a click, a verbal reward/marker will probably not suffice. 

Can you define "shock" for me? If I am understanding correctly, the watch cue has not been taught, as the idea of a cue is to direct the behaviour, not to mark it (unless they are in the process of being taught it)? If the dog won't watch without a "shock" or distraction then it hasn't learned it, has it? I don't understand how a dog learns with that method. What is the reward?

ETA: Sorry posted at the same time xx


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

i tried teh whole choke chain thing, it worked slightly but i hated the idea tbh! 

so decided on just using a harness and my voice, as my dog listens to me talking rather than what is around his neck. And being a staff they are headstrong anywho!

Just takes time and patience to get them to stop pulling, i dont see what the whole point is of these contraptions. i.e the headcollar it defeated the object of pulling. he didnt pull me any more, i had to pull him or carry him! twas crap!:lol2:


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> THAT is using a check chain improperly. The check chain is *not, under any circumstances* to be used with a dog that pulls, EVER. Nor should it be used to "yank it off its feet".


But that was how things were taught back then... not just at my local dog club but at all the others in the area, and by Obedience people who also taught there (Class C dogs).


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wow, this thread gets as heated as the Shelled ones!:lol2: To be honest, I gave up about page 8 or so, but I have to agree with those saying that choke/check chains used PROPERLY are a useful, rather than cruel training aid. Admittedly my father was pretty old-school (he'd be in his eighties if he were still alive) but he grew up with working dogs. We had Alsations as family dogs, most of which had a prior history of mismanagement; and my father firmly believed that such a large, strong, intelligent dog was effectively a dangerous weopon unless it was trained properly. He used choke chains as part of the training, and the end result was that as a child I could go out all day with one of the family dogs, walking at heel when told, leaving farm animals, other dogs and people alone, and generally doing what she was told, while still having a good run in the woods. I should point out that none of these dogs was 'cowed' or .unhappy'- they adored the family, and especially my father.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

A bell on a flat collar wouldn't help as when the dog was just walking along the bell would jingle.
However you can get a spring squeaker attachment that goes between the collar and the lead. So when you pull slightly it squeaks, thus getting the dogs attention.
It's dosen't squeak all the time, only when the disired gentle tug on the lead which is spring loaded, creates the squeaking noise.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Pimperella said:


> A bell on a flat collar wouldn't help as when the dog was just walking along the bell would jingle.


 
Aww bless ya - it wasnt a serious suggestion - the point I failed dismally to make is that it doesn't matter what collar you have on your dog - using it to correct a behaviour is not the way I would train. 
For me a collar and lead are nothing more than safety devices to prevent the dog from getting itself, or putting others in danger - Once you start to view a collar or lead as a training aid, you're on a slippery slope to a whole different training regime.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Evie said:


> Aww bless ya - it wasnt a serious suggestion - the point I failed dismally to make is that it doesn't matter what collar you have on your dog - using it to correct a behaviour is not the way I would train.
> *For me a collar and lead are nothing more than safety devices to prevent the dog from getting itself, or putting others in danger - Once you start to view a collar or lead as a training aid, you're on a slippery slope to a whole different training regime*.


I agree completely.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

:notworthy:


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## NICKO (Sep 8, 2008)

ok i have read most of this thread (its pretty long so i skimmed abit of it)
and i have decided that i have to give my two pennys.

first of i do use a choker chain. just like people have said when used correctly it has less chance of choking then if you pull on a lead.

secondly (now this is gonna ruffle some feathers). i do not disagree with pysicaly punishing a dog (let me explain before you send the abuse)

first of i would like to say i have studied animal management including studying the subject animal behavour. when i studied animal behavour i studyied at (in resonable depth) canine behavour in the wild how higher archys are extablished and kept etc, and dog training. (including pratical lessions, reports and experiments)

when i first got my dog of my sister she was a compleate nightmare. my sister had never trained her or socialised her with other dogs. she had no obedience would not sit,stay etc when told. she would eat your food from your plate if you tried to eat yo
ur dinner in the same room. she would not let you put her food in her bowl without eating it at the same time if she was in the same room. 

not long after having her she compleatly tured around. my sister was actually amazed. now she is one of the most obedeant dongs i know (my freinds ask me for training tips). 
she still has her stubborn moods (probably her english bull terrier side), is very excitable (probably due to her age) and is strange/ excitable around dogs (probably due to not being soialized with other pups).

so the choker. she was really really really bad for pulling when my sister had her. my sister tried everything from slip harnesses to getting the choker. she used it for actually allow the dog to choke its self when it pull (due to this being wat she though it was) (tried everything except training) 

since taking on the dog i have trained her to walk well on the lead (mainly buy using the choker to call her back to me)and i have gotten her a harness as i feel it is more compfortable for her and i have more control over her ive i need it.

ok as for pysicaly punishing a dog. if my dog is being ignorant i flick her ear to get her attention. this does not hurt her but as the ears are sensative she clearly feels it. if she is disobaying a direct command (that she fully aware of) such as to sit and stay instead of jumping on somone i will giver her a light slap on the side of the head around the ear. very light. this does not hurt her but gains her attention and lets her know she is misbohaving. 

i feel it is important to let a dog know wen it is misbohaving and the ignor technique is not appropriate in certain curcum stances or even the reward for good behavour. i try to regualurly reward good behavour with treats (such as obaying command) not every time but enough to let her know that is the disired response. but i feel disobediance should be firmly make clear that it is not acepted even saying no firmly would do as long as the dog understands the meaning of the word.

if you think this is harsh please look at how dogs maintain hierarchys in the wild (wat is basicaly wat we are doing in captivity by establishing ourself as the alpha animal)

soz for the huge reply but i needed to clearly explain what i mean 
(soz for spelling mistakes i know theres a few but its late and im not fully awake)

Nicko


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## NICKO (Sep 8, 2008)

i would like to state this isnt the same sister that moaned about me cuddling my dog or the one i went on the bully walk with i have a few 

also thought to add after my training methods my dog still shows "love" towards me


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

> when i studied animal behavour i studyied at (in resonable depth) canine behavour in the wild how higher archys are extablished and kept etc, and dog training. (including pratical lessions, reports and experiments)


May I ask what you know of David Mech and his studies of wolf behaviour... I don't know much of this myself apart from the most recent abstracts. ould b happy to learn more!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

NICKO said:


> ok i have read most of this thread (its pretty long so i skimmed abit of it)
> and i have decided that i have to give my two pennys.
> 
> first of i do use a choker chain. just like people have said when used correctly it has less chance of choking then if you pull on a lead.
> ...


But our domestic dogs are not wild animals. And many of the best trainers & behaviourists now believe that the 'You must be pack leader' theory is old fashioned & twaddle.


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## NICKO (Sep 8, 2008)

temeraire said:


> May I ask what you know of David Mech and his studies of wolf behaviour... I don't know much of this myself apart from the most recent abstracts. ould b happy to learn more!


im guessing this is a trick question as David Mech's reasurch shows that wolfs dont use physical distrobutions to establish heirachys (but to answer your question i probably know little more than you but would be happy to continue this over pm)



Zoo-Man said:


> But our domestic dogs are not wild animals. And many of the best trainers & behaviourists now believe that the 'You must be pack leader' theory is old fashioned & twaddle.


i understand that dogs are not wild animals but in order for them to understand you are in charge they must veiw you as higher up than themselves (obvously when food is involed it will be different)


im tired and am gonna go to bed now.

i would like to say tho that these are my own opinions baised on how i have found dog training and from what i have studied.

i am not saying how i choose to train my dog / reward and punish behavours. reflects on my education and what i have learnt (and directly reflects cainine behavour in the wild). i am simply saying that i have studyied animal behavour and my opinions have been made due to what i have learned on the subject.

(i am also not claiming to be an expert i wouldnt be supprised if somone on here knew alot more than me on cainine behavour in fact im pretty certain ppl do im just saying ive studyed the subject)

:zzz::zzz: nite


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

NICKO said:


> im guessing this is a trick question as David Mech's reasurch shows that wolfs dont use physical distrobutions to establish heirachys (but to answer your question i probably know little more than you but would be happy to continue this over pm)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why do they need to see you as higher up the heirachy than themselves?


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

temeraire said:


> May I ask what you know of David Mech and his studies of wolf behaviour... I don't know much of this myself apart from the most recent abstracts. ould b happy to learn more!


 
I read loads of Mech studies. I have loads of his books and studies.
Read his stuff and many others findings for many many years.


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

Pimperella said:


> I read loads of Mech studies. I have loads of his books and studies.
> Read his stuff and many others findings for many many years.


Cool... we're on a level then, I guess; his more recent findings though, and retraction of part of his earlier work... would be interested to hear more about that as it's not something I've been able to get my teeth into yet but understand the gist of it... and suspect it may hold an important key for the future...?


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

There is no doubt that choke chains work; nobody is disputing this fact, however other methods based on reward and motivation work equally well. So having established that both methods work, it leaves the question of which to choose: The method with a risk of injury or mental damage in the event of bad timing or misunderstanding of what the dog is thinking or feeling at any given point, or, a method which is forgiving of mistakes, and doesn’t pose any physical or mental threat to the animal?
It’s so easy to say that using gadgets works for me, but how many people have made a really serious and committed effort to learn the alternatives instead of dismissing them because it’s easier to carry on with what you already do? If the welfare of animals is important to you, then surely you would want to go out of your way to use the safer, kinder options every time? 
People can choose words and phrases as much as they like in order to dress up the choke chain as some kind of non punishment training tool, but the truth is that a choke chain is nothing more, even in it’s very mildest form, than a threat of strangulation.
Phrases like ‘using it to call the dog’ or ‘it’s just to get the dogs attention’ are complete and utter garbage, and none of the choke chain users have had the nuts or the knowledge to explain how and why they work.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Evie said:


> There is no doubt that choke chains work; nobody is disputing this fact, however other methods based on reward and motivation work equally well. So having established that both methods work, it leaves the question of which to choose: The method with a risk of injury or mental damage in the event of bad timing or misunderstanding of what the dog is thinking or feeling at any given point, or, a method which is forgiving of mistakes, and doesn’t pose any physical or mental threat to the animal?
> It’s so easy to say that using gadgets works for me, but how many people have made a really serious and committed effort to learn the alternatives instead of dismissing them because it’s easier to carry on with what you already do? If the welfare of animals is important to you, then surely you would want to go out of your way to use the safer, kinder options every time?
> People can choose words and phrases as much as they like in order to dress up the choke chain as some kind of non punishment training tool, but the truth is that a choke chain is nothing more, even in it’s very mildest form, than a threat of strangulation.
> Phrases like ‘using it to call the dog’ or ‘it’s just to get the dogs attention’ are complete and utter garbage, and none of the choke chain users have had the nuts or the knowledge to explain how and why they work.


:notworthy:


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

NICKO said:


> ok i have read most of this thread (its pretty long so i skimmed abit of it)
> and i have decided that i have to give my two pennys.
> 
> first of i do use a choker chain. just like people have said when used correctly it has less chance of choking then if you pull on a lead.
> ...


What a shame your grounding in animal management and behaviour (I notice it wasn't soley a canine behaviour/management course) hasn't given you a better grounding to work with your dog...

I too have had to 'untrain' a dog from pulling very strongly (could almost pull my 6ft husband over!) and managed to do so without the use of anything other than a ball, some treats, a flat collar and normal lead and time and patience. It was frustrating, it did take a long time, but it worked and no need for a choke chain or any other training aid. 

I would never, ever, ever choose to physically punish a dog or use aversives whilst there is another way.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

:notworthy:

Completely agree. NICKO and others - don't know if you're interested, but Bishop Burton College run an excellent course in dog behaviour and training that's pretty much the cream of the crop and very highly recommended. I started it but was too far away to continue it, it was fab.


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## NICKO (Sep 8, 2008)

midori said:


> What a shame your grounding in animal management and behaviour (I notice it wasn't soley a canine behaviour/management course) hasn't given you a better grounding to work with your dog...
> 
> 
> I would never, ever, ever choose to physically punish a dog or use aversives whilst there is another way.


woah hold up i think there has been some major misuderstanding 

i think i didnt word my original post well (probably due to me being tired) and i think i may have used unescersary examples.



Zoo-Man said:


> But our domestic dogs are not wild animals. And many of the best trainers & behaviourists now believe that the 'You must be pack leader' theory is old fashioned & twaddle.


ok i understad this so ok i put my hands up maybe it wasnt a good explanation to put in. But the whole need for positive and negative reinforcenment is still present with any dog train regardless of how the dog veiws you 
(ok negitive reinforcemeent this may be proven as more unescersary that want it once was but the ingnorring treatment and even saying no could be veiwed as negitive reinforcement IMO)
but Zoo-Man my veiws on this remain the same for certain reasons (i would be happy to continue this conversation over pm)

my initial point with negitive reinforcement. i do not agree with beating a dog, with using whips, electric collars and using chokers to choke etc. i am more than aware this method of training is outdated. all i simply ment is that i feel that many people are too touchy on the subject. and i personal do not feel it to be wrong if it is done without hurting the animal more as to gain its atention (like a choker) i did not mean physicaly punish sorry if thats what i said more of making a dog aware that its actions were incorrect (negitive reinforement) (i feel this can be done without hurting the animal) 

ok i dont think i explain my intial reasoning well about look at how cainine establish and keep hiercachys. as it has been pointed out canines that live in larger social groups (this being a good proportion of them) are less likly to used actual phsysical dominance. for the same reason male deer have a mating call to prove who is the stronger animal before sizing each other up, then only if by these two methods they cannot establish who is the stronger male they rut (it happens like this with most thing to conserve energy)

i am fuly aware that due to canines highly social nature in the wild the are very good at comunicating using body language and vocals(to both canines and humans) 
and i do feel that using physical reinforcement is often unessercary when saying no works (but has your dog ever ignored you? this is not me justifying it just explaining certain reasonings) 

also if you read how i carry it out you will see it is not aimed to hurt her just gain her attention and comunicate with her.

i also feel negitive reinforcement should not be used in certain aspectects of dog train such as training a dog to do tricks. (i personaly im not really big on trick training) but to use negitive reinforcement on unnercersary commands IMO is wrong and is crossing the line from disoplin to abuse. expecially if the dog isnt aware of the comman and it is unware of what it is doing wrong. 

(i hope i have cleared up my intial post with the above and not dug myself into a deaper hole)

ok i would like to say i hope i havent upset anyone our made anyone feel as though i could be being cruel to my dog (who i love very very much might i add) i think when i read this thread i had opinions on some points raised and on the intial topic so i was excited to voice them and i may have rushed, not giving much thought to my initial wording and explanations (being tired didnt help)

although i think it is good that people challenged points i have made that the disagree with (and has shown me that certan points were unesscarsary on my part)
i would just like to clear up what my intial post says on the original topic. 

* i have used chokers and have found them to work well when used correctly (without harming the dog)

* as you can see from my example i have found people to use chokers incorrectly (probably due to the name) ( i do think it is the same thing with negitive reinforcement, due to the name everyone thinks to use it you must beat your dog) 

Cheers Nicko


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

NICKO said:


> (i hope i have cleared up my intial post with the above and not dug myself into a deaper hole)
> 
> Cheers Nicko


I'm coming round to your house to confiscate your spade :lol2:


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## NICKO (Sep 8, 2008)

Evie said:


> I'm coming round to your house to confiscate your spade :lol2:


lol haha cheers 

sorry but but i still have to say :blush: i still compleatly disagree with your post on the prevous page expecialy : 


Evie said:


> Phrases like ‘using it to call the dog’ or ‘it’s just to get the dogs attention’ are complete and utter garbage, and none of the choke chain users have had the nuts or the knowledge to explain how and why they work.


i know chokers are commenly misused but i believe that they are used correctly to call the dog and gain its attention (exactly how i used it)

and i feel there is a time and place for both negitive reinforcement and positive reinforcement. i believe that even saying no or bad dog to your dog is negitive reinforcement (if you think about it how can it not be)

soz dont wanna start another debait i just noticed i didnt comment on your post and thought i should raise my opinions on certain points. but each to there own opinion 

Cheers Nicko


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

NICKO said:


> lol haha cheers
> 
> sorry but but i still have to say :blush: i still compleatly disagree with your post on the prevous page expecialy :
> 
> ...


I have no problem with negative punishment - clicker training uses negative punishment - ie if the dog doesn't perform it doesn't get the reward. Choke chains use positive punishment - unless of course you can do what everyone else has failed to do and explain the learning theory behind choke chains in a different way. I am really bored with asking this question but I'll ask it again; *What does the choke chain mean to the dog and how does it learn the meaning? *

How can you justify using punishment based training when there are safer ways to acheive the same end? What is the point of using a choke chain if it is possible train the dog to do what you want without running the risk of using one? 
There enough scientific research out there which supports the idea that choke chains can and do cause physical damage to dogs- even when used by 'professionals'.


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## NICKO (Sep 8, 2008)

Evie said:


> Choke chains use positive punishment - unless of course you can do what everyone else has failed to do and explain the learning theory behind choke chains in a different way. I am really bored with asking this question but I'll ask it again; *What does the choke chain mean to the dog and how does it learn the meaning? *
> 
> There enough scientific research out there which supports the idea that choke chains can and do cause physical damage to dogs- even when used by 'professionals'.


ok im not sure if you understand how choke chains are supose to be used. i simply conditioned my dog to either stay, slowdown or comeback to me when the chain tightend.

(as as somone has said there is a higher chance of strangaling your dog on a normal collar if it pulls than if it is a choker collar) and this is somthing i know to be true. of course if your dog continues to pull on a choker after it has tightened it will choke itself exactly the same as if it was to continue pulling on a regualar collar. 

so as i was saying my dog was conditioned to stop pulling with a slight jerk of the lead (or when the lead was tight). i conditioned her using the words no and bad dog if she continued to pull and telling her to sit or come back to me. and when she sat or came back to me as soon as the chain tightend i gave her a treat and said the words good girl. 

i have since moved her on to a harness for reasons i have said above and she still follows this rule. if the lead becomes tight to slow down so it becomes slack. if i jerk on the lead to come back to me. 

she does this without flaw now and the only reinforcement i need to use is good girl when she shows the disired result.

IMO the pest way to train a pulling dog to stop pulling is to use a harness this way it will not choke itself as it pulls. and then to do exactly wat i said earlyer (there are several slight veriations that work well). if you cannot hold a dog back while it is pulling then you shouldnt have the dog and if you cba training it you should not have it

cheers nicko


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

NICKO said:


> ok im not sure if you understand how choke chains are supose to be used. i simply conditioned my dog to either stay, slowdown or comeback to me when the chain tightend.
> 
> cheers nicko


But *how* did you condition the dog to stay/slow down or come back? 
From what you are saying here it implies that the tightening of the chain in itself tell the dog what you want it to do - but of course that would be nonsense - if someone put a chain around my neck and tightened it I would know they were pissed at me but I might not know why or what they wanted me to do to avoid this stimulus.
If you use a method which teaches the dog what you *do* want it to do, and motivate it sufficiently, surely this is a clearer message to the dog about what is required?


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## NICKO (Sep 8, 2008)

Evie said:


> But *how* did you condition the dog to stay/slow down or come back?





NICKO said:


> my dog was conditioned to stop pulling with a slight jerk of the lead (or when the lead was tight). i conditioned her using the words no and bad dog if she continued to pull and telling her to sit or come back to me. and when she sat or came back to me as soon as the chain tightend i gave her a treat and said the words good girl.


as above


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

NICKO said:


> as above


Fair enough - I can acheive the same result with just the treat or a toy and no need to use a choke chain - you really should give it a go - you'd love it! : victory:


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## NICKO (Sep 8, 2008)

Evie said:


> Fair enough - I can acheive the same result with just the treat or a toy and no need to use a choke chain - you really should give it a go - you'd love it! : victory:





NICKO said:


> i have since moved her on to a harness for reasons i have said above and she still follows this rule. if the lead becomes tight to slow down so it becomes slack. if i jerk on the lead to come back to me.
> 
> she does this without flaw now and the only reinforcement i need to use is good girl when she shows the disired result.
> 
> IMO the pest way to train a pulling dog to stop pulling is to use a harness


she is trained to walk perfectly on the lead now, but thanks (and i know you can get the same result with just a treat). this is just the method i used, and i wouldnt recomend this method to somone who knows nothing or little about dog training as i said above IMO i think harnesses are the best for a pulling dog. i just dont think that chokers are as bad as many people are trying to make out when used correctly

cheers Nicko


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## Shelley66 (Feb 19, 2007)

My GSD's have always worn "choke" chains, just as the ones did that my parents had. They were used properly and didn't cause the dogs any problems, but then the dogs were always taught to walk at heel, so they didn't get yanked about on them. I only have to rattle the chain slightly and my girl knows she is going too far ahead or to the side of me and comes back... No harm caused.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

NICKO said:


> and i feel there is a time and place for both negitive reinforcement and positive reinforcement. i believe that even saying no or bad dog to your dog is negitive reinforcement (if you think about it how can it not be)


Hi Nicko

Not disputing or arguing, but can you explain to me what you believe positive and negative reinforcement is? I have been taught these in terms of behaviourist conditioning theory and am not sure what I regard as negative reinforcement (animal does something and unpleasant stimulus is removed, raising chances of animal repeating behaviour) is the same as what you consider it to be?

To me this is how it goes:

Positive reinforcement - animal does behaviour, experiences pleasant outcome, more likely to repeat.

Negative reinforcement - animal experiencing unpleasant stimulus, acts out behaviour, stimulus removed, more likely to repeat behaviour.

Positive punishment - animal does behaviour, unpleasant outcome, less likely to repeat behaviour.

Negative punishment - animal does behaviour, something pleasant taken away, less likely to repeat behaviour.

I've probably massively oversimplified there. 

Thanks

Kathy


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## davieboi (Jul 17, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Hi Nicko
> 
> Not disputing or arguing, but can you explain to me what you believe positive and negative reinforcement is? I have been taught these in terms of behaviourist conditioning theory and am not sure what I regard as negative reinforcement (animal does something and unpleasant stimulus is removed, raising chances of animal repeating behaviour) is the same as what you consider it to be?
> 
> ...


 i think you have just restarted a long debate,quite simply the discussion was over the relevance of the terminology isn't important:whip:


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## NICKO (Sep 8, 2008)

davieboi said:


> i think you have just restarted a long debate,quite simply the discussion was over the relevance of the terminology isn't important:whip:


he is right



KathyM said:


> Hi Nicko
> 
> Not disputing or arguing, but can you explain to me what you believe positive and negative reinforcement is? I have been taught these in terms of behaviourist conditioning theory and am not sure what I regard as negative reinforcement (animal does something and unpleasant stimulus is removed, raising chances of animal repeating behaviour) is the same as what you consider it to be?
> 
> ...


but seeing as you have asked i will pm your (you sould of really pmed me in the first place)


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Why? This is an open topic and I was genuinely interested - when someone is potentially sharing a different view politely, why hide the outcome from others? Perhaps I've missed something here, if you're uncomfortable discussing training perhaps joining in on a training thread is not for you. Otherwise I apologise for the huge faux pas! mg:


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## NICKO (Sep 8, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Why? This is an open topic and I was genuinely interested - when someone is potentially sharing a different view politely, why hide the outcome from others? Perhaps I've missed something here, if you're uncomfortable discussing training perhaps joining in on a training thread is not for you. Otherwise I apologise for the huge faux pas! mg:


ok sorry if it apeared like i was trying to hide the outcome. i feel more than comfortable dicussing my training methods in this thread as i feel i have already proven. 
but as davieboi has said i felt this was a case of terminology not a case of training or of relevance to the orignial topic or topics raised (this is IMO).
no it was not a faux pas i just simply felt it would of been better to ask over pm, no need to get defensive hun :thumb: no ones attacking you

but if it will make you feel better i will reply your original question in a new post


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I wasn't meaning to be defensive, I was just trying to interpret your post and couldn't without clarifying, then got a bashing for asking lol. It doesn't matter, it's only a thread xx


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