# How many poison dart frogs can I have??



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Hiya I have recently gotten hold of a brilliantly designed terrirum with a brilliant designed waterfall feature (not a waterfall as in a lizard one but a hand made one) and its been built in an exoterra 2 foot long by 1 foot and a half wide by 2 foot high vivarium and im wondering how many tree frogs you would suggest I can put in it? Also can you have different types of tree frogs??? The reason I ask is that the pet shop (Stockport Pet Warehouse) Manager has put 3 different types of tree frog information guides on the front bottom of the viv (Black and green Poison dart frog, Strawberry poison dart frog and Blue Poison Dart frog) and I would hopefully like to get a mixture of them 3? Is that possible?? If so how much of each would u suggest I get??? Please Help as Im new to frog keeping!!!


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Uhm, poison dart frogs are NOT tree frogs bud, I think somebody has perhaps mislead you?

To directly answer your question however, no, the black and green are probably d. auratus, the blue will probably be d. tinctorius azureas and these shouldn't be kept together as hybrisation will occur and is seriously frowned upon. Further, strawberry poison dart frogs aren't really for beginners.

My advice at the point would be that you need to do some research buddy.

Ade


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

So would u just stick to one species???? Also is it best to have the terrarium running for a while and then introduce the frogs to it???? Where is the best place to find a caresheet for these beautiful creatures??? Lastly what type of frog would u recommend as a starting off one???


----------



## Heim (Aug 3, 2008)

Wow... this is a fake post?

lol sorry if this is legitimate mate, but you have probably left many of the die hard keepers twitching after reading that post.

My suggestion: take each one of the species shown on that viv and google each one. You will find many pages of useful information, including keeping them, requirements and opinions on mixing.

This will probably give you 90% of your answers, then you could come back here and ask more... 'sensible' questions .


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

yeah I read up and most websites recommend D. Azureus frogs which correct me if Im wrong are the blue poison dart frogs??? Also from what ive read its best to get 2 males to one female??? Is that right??? Will there be enougth room in my terrarium for 3 poison dart frogs??? I am being sincere in that I am a begineer keeper of frogs and all help would be gratefully ackowledged  . Lastly would you say I should start me terrarium with nothing in it apart from the waterfall running for a few months so it stays matured??? Thank you for any help


----------



## Heim (Aug 3, 2008)

I'm not a dart expert, but I'll do my best till they find your post .

That's a decent size viv, and depending how you use the space, I couldn't imagine it being a problem to house 3 tincs. Also yes I believe in this species it is the females whom are territorial and will scrap.

As for your vivarium: yes you should give it time to settle. 

The viv pretty much needs to be planted up with live plants, and it is a good idea to allow these plants to get established.

Look into 'live substrate' as well. The addition of springtails and woodlice will help keep your vivarium thriving.

If you insist on a water feature, you need to think the consequences of having that in your vivarium. Is there any deep water? Most darts are poor swimmers. How will you keep this water filtered and clean? These features are a breeding ground for bacteria.

As your research will tell you, these guys require warm humid environments. These environments require much greater care than a dry environment, and so need some initial planning and forethought.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

The good thing is that it has been well established before I got the terarrium off the pet shop as the owner made it himself quite a few months ago and it has plenty of moss in it and loads of live plants. I dont think there is a deep water feature in it just a waterfall feature in which the pump collects the water at the bottom which then gets pumped out again (truthfully he has done it really well!! Its one of the best pet shops in manchester Stokport Pet warehouse is!!!) Im just waiting to get something to stand it on and then ill be switching it on and then keeping it running for a fe months so it keeps it maturity how it is!!!


----------



## reptilekeeper1992 (Jan 11, 2010)

Show us a pic of the terrarium, sounds interesting mate


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

I need to get it on something as its currently on the floor and ill be lending a camera hopefully of me sister tommorow (not that she knows lol, she will do tommorow he hee) so ill get a good one when the waterfall is running as, im getting a small table to put it on probably Tuesday so ill have it all running then apart from the frogs lol!!! I promise a piccy will be up Tuesday at the very latest!!! I have got a video of it on my facebook but can u put videos on here and if so how? I know how to put [pictures on but not videos!!!


----------



## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

reptilekeeper1992 said:


> Show us a pic of the terrarium, sounds interesting mate



Would love to see this viv as well please?


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

2 problems, 1 its on facebook as It WAS on me phone but got deleted so is there any way of me getting it back from facebook so I can put it on here and if number 1 is possible how to I put the video of it on here????!!??

Actually I have figured out a way that you can do it!!! Go onto facebook and then do a search for me under my Facebook Email (which is [email protected]) then go ontop my pictures then my videos and its on there!!!!

Please tell me what yopu guys think of it????


----------



## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Sure its possible, if its on FB open the pics to everyone & you can post the link here I think?


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Yup, Helm is correct, you SHOULD be ok with a male heavy trio of tinctorius (Azureas were discovered to actually be another tinctorius morph, so they went from been dendrobates azureas to been dendrobates tinctorius azureas). Mixing isn't popular in the dart frog hobby, and is only recommended for those who have been in the hobby for a while, kept the frogs they plan to mix individually etc and who have BIG vivs. The people who succeed at mixing, well you will never see them posting to ask how to do it etc, they already know, you just see a post eventually showing a huge viv. lol

As to care sheets, the ones on dendroboard.com are quite good. As to darts usually advised for those starting out, most tinctorius (including azureas, but excluding Regina which are considered difficult), d. leucomelas and d. auratus are all historically good frogs to start with. More and more people are going for the leucomelas and auratus if they start with larger vivs as the females aren't as aggressive, so small groups are possible. Please note that you should not keep any of these in the same viv however, leucomelas, auratus and tinctorius are all in the tinctorius group and can produce hybrids. Given that often as dart keepers we are keeping animals that either already are, or may potentially, become threatened in the wild sullying their bloodlines with hybrids is seriously frowned upon. Besides, why gild the lilly? 

Taking a couple of steps back though now. Rushing to discussing frogs isn't ideal. Take a step back, start researching how to culture fruitflies (wingless and flightless), springtails and bean and grain weevils. Then practice this until you get the hang BEFORE you buy frogs. The single biggest cause of failure for beginners to darts is starved frogs. You just can't rely on been able to buy cultures (especially in winter) that are packed with flies enough to keep feeding going. Culturing your own is the single best way to ensure your future in the dart hobby.

Going back to the tank. Properly made water features can be absolutely fine. I have water falls in a few of my tanks, they work in my case by having false bottoms under the substrate full of water. In the case of one I actually run it using an external canister filter as well.  To my simplest one which pumps water from the drainage gully to the top of a small stream made out of polystyrene and Juwel background material, all sealed up with silicone. 

Oh and I didn't think for a moment the post was fake. Just sounded to me like another victim of local rep/pet shop syndrome. Few reptile or pet shops bother to learn how to keep what they sell, and often mix frogs that shouldn't be. Even ignoring hybridisation between azureas and auratus (they might be young frogs, negating that as an issue), strawberry dart frogs (oophaga pumilio) are VERY territorial, and will bully even frog bigger than them is my understanding. So that shop tank is a ticking time bomb, with either the larger frogs getting stressed, or the pums getting seriously stressed at having their territory invaded constantly. Nothing new there though.

Regarding pics, take a new one and upload it to photobucket? Or if you are serious about getting into the dart hobby, you could register on the site in my sig, upload to the gallery there, and then use img tags to display it here.  Which I will do now actually, with a pic for you to look at to confirm those blue dart frogs are azureas:-










They're my pair of Azureas. If that's what's in that shop, then yes they are Azureas, the frog most commonly known as the blue poison dart frog.

Ade


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

hiya I cannot remember which code to use from Photobucket for this site so Ill try the bottom two for me piccies of the terrarium!!! Please also note that they aint the best of pictures as was taken with me phone camera!!!



















Please tell me what you think!!!

Many thanks!!!

Martin Dean


----------



## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

Hard to tell sometimes with photos but looks like you need to remove the plastic plant and that branch and give the frogs more floor space if you are thinking of having tincs, leucs or auratus

Richie


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Can I ask then, which require more floor space poison dart frogs or green tree frogs????? As my terrarium is more setup for frogs that like climbing rather than floor space wouldnt you say????


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

It's not that clear cut. Some poison dart frogs love the climbing space, others (tinctorius for example) like floor space.

Either way, were it me I'd be removing that plastic plant.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

i'm with them pull the plastic plant,you have to do some homework yet before you get any darts,show us some pics without that plastic plant in there,some ideas will get chucked at you and you'll have time to make adjustments whilst learning,and working out your culturing etc,don't be put off darts though,they are reasonably straight foward,if you have done your reserch. don't be disheartened by the thoughts comming your way,there is much to learn for all of us,if you want darts then head down go for it read read read
regards
Stu


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

The problem is I dont like the thought of removing anthing from the viv and I dunno which plastic plant they mean!!! The reason being that it was a self made terrrarium by one of the owners at Stockport pet warehouse and wouldnt it be something extra for the frogs to climb on???


----------



## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

reptileman33 said:


> The problem is I dont like the thought of removing anthing from the viv and I dunno which plastic plant they mean!!! The reason being that it was a self made terrrarium by one of the owners at Stockport pet warehouse and wouldnt it be something extra for the frogs to climb on???



That big plastic or fake ivy thing thats stuck in the front of the viv, at the end of the day its up to you if you remove it or not but you did ask for peoples opinions, would be a great viv for treefrogs which will proberbly suit you better

Richie


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Oh im not complaining, I just didnt know which u meant lol!!!!! I apologise if u thought I was complaining, its just that I didnt build the viv and I do not wish to disturb anything by removing stuff as I dont want it to collapse on me or anything as I feel it is a brilliant viv and I feel that John out of SPW, did a real brilliant job and Id hate to distroy something that he put his heart and soul into, if u get me!!!!!:devil:

I feel that the phrase do not disturb if not causing any harm is best suited for me as I can be a little heavy handed!!!!


----------



## retrophile (Jul 3, 2011)

If you want a complete novices opinion, then read on 

I'm new to frogs and am working on a tree frog build (for milks) just now to pick up at UKFD. 

From what I have researched thus far I would say your set up would be more appropriate for tree frogs, providing it is tall enough (I can't really see from the photos).

Also, in terms of care I know from reading lots of posts on here about numerous different frogs that darts are harder to care for.

I don't want to offend you however given that you have asked some pretty basic questions (like I have), it seems that you don't have much experience with frogs and might want to consider something a little easier for your new set up to get the best out of it.

There's some really helpful stickies at the top of the forum that I have used to establish the frogs I want. I would recommend them to you. 

Hope this makes sense.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

The viv is just over 2 feet tall, is that tall enougth??? As I admit I am a complete novice when it comes to Amphibians, which is weird as I have had nearly 20 years experience in looking after lizards and now comming onto Amphibians as a complete newbie seems wierd lol!!!

I do admit and will look at all the stickies and I do thank you all for all the information you have all given me!!!

Many thanks 

Martin Dean


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

reptileman33 said:


> Oh im not complaining, I just didnt know which u meant lol!!!!! I apologise if u thought I was complaining, its just that I didnt build the viv and I do not wish to disturb anything by removing stuff as I dont want it to collapse on me or anything as I feel it is a brilliant viv and I feel that John out of SPW, did a real brilliant job and Id hate to distroy something that he put his heart and soul into, if u get me!!!!!:devil:
> 
> I feel that the phrase do not disturb if not causing any harm is best suited for me as I can be a little heavy handed!!!!


 Martin that one plant won't wreck your mates work,and shouldn't be that difficult to pull out,if you want to mate!! it'll be dead easy for you to pop in a creeping ficus to climb that branch so you don't spoil the look your so chuffed with. Martin its good that you should check out different species if your not set on dart frogs if you are mate live plants help so much ,a dart viv is a mini ecosystem live plants live soil custodians which also help you feed your frogs,once its running for a while and evrything settles down then you don't even need to clean it,apart from the glass that is.Buddy don't be put off dart frogs,presonally i think all our little animals need reserch,whether it be a whites a fire sal an american green treefrog matters not,all have needs to be catered for.maybe darts have a reputation for being difficult because they are small and hence need small grub,so one options are limited,really you need to know how to culture your own,but i guess that goes for most amphibians aswell,i didn't want to be reliant on someone else when my cineria needed feeding as a kid,same applies now with our darts.maybe this thread hasn't gone as well as it should but there's lots of help here which ever phib you eventually settle on. Same as with your reps just reserch the hell out of which grabs ya,
regards
Stu


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

The question is do people meand the branch that needs taking out of the green fake one thats wrapped around the branch or both, that is sooo confusing!!!:bash:

As if you mean the branch I dunno if that is supporting anything but I can take out the green false vine if thats what everyone means????? Serioulsy I dunno which one everyone is talking about!!!:gasp::gasp::gasp:


----------



## retrophile (Jul 3, 2011)

Sorry, I really didn't mean to put anyone off darts.

Was just giving my opinion as a beginner. The first frogs I looked at were darts and I instantly started looking at them and admiring them, their care and some really impressive setups. I think once I have a bit of experience with phibs and have spent more time reading up on them I've got a space in the pet room just right for a dart tank


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

reptileman33 said:


> The question is do people meand the branch that needs taking out of the green fake one thats wrapped around the branch or both, that is sooo confusing!!!:bash:
> 
> As if you mean the branch I dunno if that is supporting anything but I can take out the green false vine if thats what everyone means????? Serioulsy I dunno which one everyone is talking about!!!:gasp::gasp::gasp:


:lol2roper funny the actual green plastic leafy thang thats wrapped around the branch:2thumb:. the actual branch is good dude
Stu


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

retrophile said:


> Sorry, I really didn't mean to put anyone off darts.
> 
> Was just giving my opinion as a beginner. The first frogs I looked at were darts and I instantly started looking at them and admiring them, their care and some really impressive setups. I think once I have a bit of experience with phibs and have spent more time reading up on them I've got a space in the pet room just right for a dart tank


 you weren't putting him off mate you are totally entitled to you thoughts they were meant with good intention:notworthy: i was just after encouraging Martin no worries,just my take is if you don't get it right for any phib it will not do well,no need for apologies
regards
Stu


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Soundstounite is right, you wasnt putting me off, in fact you were giving me good advice as you will prolly know more than me as I admit I am aa complete novice in the amphibian world!!!:lol2:

I will try take out the false leaves tommorow when I am more awake and alert (if that is possible???!!?? Who knows??? stranger things have happened!!!) but I have one last question for you expert frog keepers!!!

I was looking on the front page of RFUK and spotted two types of frog!! What type are they??? (Piccies below)



















Its just that they look really fancy!!!! If anyone knows please help!!

Many thanks

Martin Dean


----------



## retrophile (Jul 3, 2011)

That's the peacock tree frog and the milk frog. I'm getting some milk frogs at the UK frog day this month. Tried to get a hold of some peacocks but according to Musty nobody has them at the moment.


----------



## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

ill admit iv only skimmed through and im also making a few assumptions but i dont feel the viv is particularly suitable for darts.

does the viv have drainage? dart vivs require very high humidity and so need a drainage layer bellow the substrate to counter the substrate becoming saturated .The plastic plants will also make this problem worse, as they dont raise humidity like live plants nor use water like live plants.The soil cant be changed like it can in a lizard viv to keep darts it will need to be "live"

as previously mentioned the viv cant be cleaned ,substrate changed etc like in most lizard/snake vivs.The process would be very stressful.... so a live viv is essential imo for keeping darts.im sure this could be done with plastic plants but it would make things alot more difficult...and uglier:whistling2: iv also found the darts become bolder the more they are left alone so a monthly change would be a very bad idea....

lastly and most importantly, I feel the viv is unsuitable as you didnt make it! creating the viv is possibly the funnest most rewarding part of keeping darts. its amazing to watch a viv mature into a mini eco system.just as its amazing to watch the inhabitant grow.buy yourself a nice ENT viv(speak to richie) join dendroworld and dendroboard, look into live soils and creating vivs and you will enjoy the hobby alot lot more!


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

That first pics is awesome, the photographer must be very talented.


----------



## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

reptileman33 said:


> Soundstounite is right, you wasnt putting me off, in fact you were giving me good advice as you will prolly know more than me as I admit I am aa complete novice in the amphibian world!!!:lol2:
> 
> I will try take out the false leaves tommorow when I am more awake and alert (if that is possible???!!?? Who knows??? stranger things have happened!!!) but I have one last question for you expert frog keepers!!!
> 
> ...


did you get permission to save the pics?
just a thought


you lot are really giving me a kick, this is worse than posts i get involved in


----------



## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

spinnin_tom said:


> did you get permission to save the pics?
> just a thought
> 
> 
> you lot are really giving me a kick, this is worse than posts i get involved in


You don't need permission to save pics of the internet, you need permission to re-publish them for your own gain/website/as you own etc.

Martin is just using them as examples of what he'd like to keep.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Martin I don't think you should be keeping frogs after your Iguana incident.


----------



## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Martin I don't think you should be keeping frogs after your Iguana incident.


Give the guy a chance.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Saedcantas said:


> Give the guy a chance.


He had loads.


----------

