# Dog food



## vonnie (Aug 20, 2007)

OK so I changed the dogs over to James Wellbeloved a couple of weeks ago. They've always been on Wagg but I came to the conclusion that quality food wasn't something I was going to skimp on any more, even though I did nearly pass out when I realised it was 4 times the price!

There's not exactly a huge range at the farm stores, which is why I picked that one. Thing is, I had it in my head they were one of the small independent companies, and today, looking up buying in bullk online I realise that they're not. They're Pedigree.

Well as I don't wish to buy from a pet food company involved in animal testing that leaves me with a choice between Arden Grange, Burns and Pero.

Can anyone recommend any of these?


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

I have heard that Burns is meant to be very good :2thumb:. Just don't use Iams, these are the worst for testing on animals (there are videos of undercover footage & it's not nice at all). Pedigree don't test on animals.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

why not try BARF? i spent £34 today on 60 portions of tripe mix, 10 turkey wings and two bags of turkey necks. That will last my two a good 5 weeks and probably longer.


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## sjl02 (May 31, 2010)

Both jameswellbeloved and royal canin are owned by mars, who also own pedigree / whiskas. 
Alot of big companies have dog food companies. Hills is owned by colgate(sp) if I remember right.

Both burns and Arden grange are good foods. Burns are still independent at the moment. I've just switched my dog to burns as he has skin problems and it's really helped with that.but he's not maintaining his weight which is quite common. So rethinking at the mo.


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## nikki_alaska (Apr 10, 2009)

I use arden grange, and they also do a 'breeders club' you can sign up to for free (doesnt require proof of breeding or anything...i know many in it without being breeders) and you get good discounts on their food 

My dogs are SIberian Huskies, and are show and working dogs, and Arden Grange keeps them in excellent condition, active, happy and healthy


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

nikki_alaska said:


> My dogs are SIberian Huskies, and are show and working dogs, and Arden Grange keeps them in excellent condition, active, happy and healthy



if you fed them BARF they could be mentally retarded like mine :whistling2:


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## nikki_alaska (Apr 10, 2009)

Meko said:


> if you fed them BARF they could be mentally retarded like mine :whistling2:


yes, been there and done that pmsl...... my bitch is such a diva, she thinks shes too good for barf so refuses to entertain the idea... looks at the chicken wing at her feet as if to say 'and you expect me to do what with that??'

little cowbag pmsl


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

i know that look.. my two got to the 'chicken? again??? no dad.... just no!'
So now they're on beef tripe mix, lamb tripe mix and mixed meat mix with turkey bits.. hopefully they'll forget what chicken tastes like and start eating it again.


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## nikki_alaska (Apr 10, 2009)

Meko said:


> i know that look.. my two got to the 'chicken? again??? no dad.... just no!'
> So now they're on beef tripe mix, lamb tripe mix and mixed meat mix with turkey bits.. hopefully they'll forget what chicken tastes like and start eating it again.


Good luck with that one pmsl..... theyre more intelligent that they let on


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

i really wish they were 

knowing that i want them to sit at opposite ends of the sofa? yep, sometimes and will wait till i move the coffee table.
not standing on the back of the sofa? NO don't be silly!!
going outside when the back door is open? nah.. far too easy!
sitting at the back door when it's shut and whining to go out? oh yes!!

still rather have them than kid though... lol


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## jeweled lady (Aug 25, 2009)

vonnie said:


> OK so I changed the dogs over to James Wellbeloved a couple of weeks ago. They've always been on Wagg but I came to the conclusion that quality food wasn't something I was going to skimp on any more, even though I did nearly pass out when I realised it was 4 times the price!
> 
> There's not exactly a huge range at the farm stores, which is why I picked that one. Thing is, I had it in my head they were one of the small independent companies, and today, looking up buying in bullk online I realise that they're not. They're Pedigree.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't recommend any of them, if only you knew what most dried foods have in them.

Why don't you make up your dogs food yourself? Why pay loads of cash for what is really rubbish. If you buy meat and bones and fresh veg. for your dog, think of what you will be saving and look what a healthy dog you will have, probably never have to visit the vet again!

Most large pet stores have a freezer full of raw meats, or try one of raw food companies, or just use your local butcher. At least preparing it yourself, you will know what is in it and that will be meat, not meat derivitives and carbohydrates.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I use Franks pro gold, no animal testing or animal derivatives and its cheaper than JWB. Its only available online though as my friend imports it from Holland.

Dog Food and Cat Food - Frank's Pro Gold Premium Pet Food.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I've just changed Skye onto CSJ dog food. He was on Beta when we got him, but it gave him terrible diarrhoea, so I changed him onto Autarky - it was better. but his stools were always very soft and difficult to pick up. In the end my vet suggested that he maybe needed a poorer quality protein so to try Chappie - we did and it was a little bit better.

I was ordering some "Calm Down Herbal" from CSJ and decided to e-mail them to ask if the herbs were the right ones for his problems and then described all his problems.

Ceri Rundle who started the firm e-mailed me straight back saying "Calm Down" was the best option for him. She also said she had sent me some samples and told me which of the foods they make she would recommend.

I decided to try him on their original Champ range first, because someone with a GSD said it had solved exactly the same problem with her dog and it has worked with Skye!!!

CSJ is made in Wales and the Champ that we are using is only £10 for a 15Kg bag. I looked at their list of stockists in this area and the one who is listed as living in Morpeth is actually at Red Row - just behind Acklington Prison and she's selling it for £9 a bag, so I go and pick up 3 bags at a time.

I would really recommend them both for their food and their helpfulness.

Dog Food for gundogs, sheepdogs, agility dogs, and show dogs.


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

we're a bit iffy with food at the moment. Ozzy was on James wellbeloved but it went straight through her , so tried her on Wagg, she's doing much better but does have the odd bout of the runs every now and again. however she does like eating things from the garden :hmm:


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

Mine dont get on with raw or barf, and we have been through most of the sensitive foods. Autarky is good and if you buy direct from them its about 20 quid including postage. Mine do really well on it.


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## Jamiioo (May 8, 2010)

I feed Arden Grange. I have also heard that CSJ is good & would feed burns if i ever ran out of my current supply of Arden. I also give my Dog something from the butcher once a week instead of dry food as opposed to feeding a barf diet, something i cant do atm reasons being:

* To feed barf you have to get the balance right - i have found no general set of rules to what exactly the balance should be, i have found from different sources different balances of foods in different ratios? - I think this may need to be researched more despite the fact that it is no doubt a better diet than dry food as you know what you are feeding

* I don't have the freezer space =O

* Its difficult to find a butcher, one butcher i went into asking for raw bones said to me its against the law to give out bones (wrong?!) The butcher up the road hs no problems with giving me bones and other things when they do have as long as i make a charity donation, but i don't think they would give me anything in bulk even if i wanted as alot of the time i go in they don't have many (if any) bones in so i have to end up buying meaty bones or ribs etc


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## jeweled lady (Aug 25, 2009)

I wish more people would realise the benefits of feeding a natural raw diet. Lots of dogs suffer from diarrhoea because they can't cope with the carbs in so many of the dried foods offered for sale now.

Why is it folks just cannot get their heads around what is natural for dogs to eat. They are carnivores and eat meat and bone. they have teeth for slashing meat not teeth for grinding grains. Their digestive tract is shorter than ours allowing them to handle raw food and cope with bacteria and yet they still get fed carbohydrate. No wonder there are so many sick dogs around.

Someone said to feed Barf you have to get the balance right, what balance? It's not a science. My dogs have been fed raw for years and my pups weened straight onto meat and then chicken wings.


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

Thats rather a sweeping statement about so many ill dogs. 
barf is a good diet BUT not all dogs get on with it and not everyone wants to feed it. Its people choice what they feed their dogs. My male got very ill from being on barf and from what my vet told me some dogs just dont take well to it at all. If the op wants to feed barf or raw or dried its up to her to make that choice, but i certainly dont think comments about the reason there is so many sickly dogs is because what they are fed isnt going to help and imo just isnt true.


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## Jamiioo (May 8, 2010)

jeweled lady said:


> Someone said to feed Barf you have to get the balance right, what balance? It's not a science. My dogs have been fed raw for years and my pups weened straight onto meat and then chicken wings.


Well from what i have heard you need to have a specific bone:meat ratio you cant just feed anything and everything in terms of raw meat?

I have also read on some net sources that raw veg, eggs and things like sardines should also be added along with offal etc etc.... and EVERYTHING, needs to be in a certain ratio/amount??

One of the reasons that put me off - how can you set up a weekly menu if there are various different sites and books giving different ratios then others saying there shouldn't even be a ratio/balance....

Also i agree with the comment above, i don't think all dry foods are the reasons for many ill dogs, i would say there are much worse reasons for the amount of ill dogs you get these days like bad breeding although that doesn't mean to say I'm off to feed my dog a crap diet. I don't think op will have an issue as long as she picks a good quality food it took me AGES to find out what foods were better than others, this link came in quite useful:

Dry dog food alphabetical index - kibble starting by A


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

to be honest i don't know many people who fanny about with ratios and balance. They're domesticated wild animals, ferral dogs don't go measuring what to eat, taking a wing out and replace it with a carrot. 
Humans don't balance and ratio either, we eat, and seeing as tinned dog food is 10% low grade food and 90% even lower grade crap... you can't exactly get worse.

Mine are as healthy as they come and they get 'fed' bones and raw food. todays menu is turkey wing, mixed tripe and turkey neck between the pair of them.


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## jeweled lady (Aug 25, 2009)

Tds79 said:


> Thats rather a sweeping statement about so many ill dogs.
> barf is a good diet BUT not all dogs get on with it and not everyone wants to feed it. Its people choice what they feed their dogs. My male got very ill from being on barf and from what my vet told me some dogs just dont take well to it at all. If the op wants to feed barf or raw or dried its up to her to make that choice, but i certainly dont think comments about the reason there is so many sickly dogs is because what they are fed isnt going to help and imo just isnt true.


I quite agree it is up to the individual person to offer the best they can for their dog but actually there are a lot of sickly dogs out there. I revolve in very large doggy circles and I see it all the time. I have dogs that have never been to vets, they don't suffer health problems. I have fed a natural diet for decades, lecture on diet and it is not true that you have to get all proportions of food right. Feeding raw meat and bone gives the correct calcium and phospherous ratio. If folks find it difficult to feed raw, it could always be cooked but the main thing is to keep of the carbohydrates. As alot of new dog owners only know about dried food, it is important they are informed about feeding natural. What can be better than something you have prepared for your dog yourself.

Last night I asked ten puppy owners if they knew what was in their dogs food. None of them had looked at the contents, one or two guessed meat and additives. Now what does that tell you?


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

Im not a new dog owner and i could be wrong but i think most that have commented on this thread arent ether. I also didnt say it was down to ratio etc. I have worked within the dog world and know that very few people know whats in there dog food, but it doesnt mean if they dont feed barf there dog is going to be ill or it makes them a bad owner. 
My vet is very for barf and raw and even he admits it does not suit every dog, it certainly didnt suit my male at all. I also know people who have fed bakers, there dogs are 19 and 12 years old, perfect health and only ever needed the vets for injections . . . . I would never recommend bakers in a million years BUT it does go to show that people dont need to feed barf or raw for a healthy dog. 
what i am trying to say is you simply cannot say raw or barf means you will have a dog that will always be healthy, its like saying if you as a person only eat a certain foods you wont get ill, because thats rubbish, it certainly helps, but its not a guarantee. 
I am with you though that people should know what they are feeding their dogs, but even if they do and continue to feed dry food it doest make them a bad owner.


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## bbav (Oct 17, 2007)

feorag said:


> I've just changed Skye onto CSJ dog food. He was on Beta when we got him, but it gave him terrible diarrhoea, so I changed him onto Autarky - it was better. but his stools were always very soft and difficult to pick up. In the end my vet suggested that he maybe needed a poorer quality protein so to try Chappie - we did and it was a little bit better.
> 
> I was ordering some "Calm Down Herbal" from CSJ and decided to e-mail them to ask if the herbs were the right ones for his problems and then described all his problems.
> 
> ...


Do you know if the sooper dooper champ is any good? 
I'm looking for a food that will help with putting a little bit of weight on a whippet cross springer that we are getting on tuesday.
He needs a descent food.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

To be honest I don't know. What I do know is that although Chappie 'firmed up' Skye's stools a bit, he also lost weight on it, so we had to increase the amount he was being fed to try and get the weight back on - that hasn't been a problem since we moved him onto Champ.

If the Champ hadn't worked out as being suitable for him our next choice would have been "Fit n Fast" and then if that hadn't have worked we'd have tried "Lamb with Rice", but fortunately for us the "Natural Champ" worked out fine and the cost helps a lot.

You could e-mail the company through their website and ask for their suggestions or ask for some samples and check out whether the dog will eat them or not first???


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## Arkko (Oct 11, 2009)

Tried my stafford on burns, made her really poorly. Dull coat, lack of interest in food, lethargic, lost 1kg in 4 weeks. Shes back on beta now for a while and is thriving on it! 

Have heard tons of good stuff about Burns but just wasnt for roxie, a few of my walking clients are on Burns and Arden grange and they all do really well on them. 

Would love to put rox onto raw food but dont have any freezer space at all =/


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Another vote for CSJ here. I also recommend Skinner's duck and rice, but not sure where that stands on the animal testing side of things.

I think you'll find there are always those who think they know best for everyone's dogs. But to suggest cooking a raw diet if you dont like the idea of raw is downright dangerous. Raw bones are risky enough, cooked ones are perforated gut on a plate.

Yes, raw works for some, but it's not the be all and end all, what works for your dogs might not work for others.

If only the pro-"BARF"ers were as open minded as they claim to be!:lol2:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I first heard about CSJ on a "what do you feed your dogs" thread on here, just before we got Skye, then I found the "Calm Down" herbal on a hollistic vet website and ordered it. When it came I realised it was actually made by CSJ and so then I started ordering it direct from them.


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## Pincer (Dec 2, 2010)

We use Burns Lamb and Maize for are Retriever very good food :2thumb:


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

Out of the options you have, if I were you I'd have a close look at the ingredients and pick the highest meat content - so something like Arden Grange chicken and rice, which was higher meat then Pero or Burns equivelent foods.

If I were you though to be completely honest, I'd use Wagg as a mixer and spend the equivelent extra amount on cheap mince, heart, occasional offal etc, (avoid bone in the same meal as kibble) as the normal Wagg dog food has no artificial colours or added sugar so you could do worse and it's cheap as chips. 

This is a bit of a faff though so can understand wanting to go to something complete but I'm off the school of thought that variety is the spice of life and you're much more likely to hit key nutrients with more than one food source! 

Also, grain is really almost a vegetable so it's not the devil's food, though I would tend towards higher meat content.


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## bbav (Oct 17, 2007)

Thanks feorag i will email them and see what they advice.


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## Pinkchi (Nov 23, 2009)

I would never ever consider feeding anything that isn't grain free. Dogs do not need grain in their diet, it is merely used in kibble to bulk it out. 99.9% of commercial kibble contains very little meat, most not even actual meat but 'derivatives'. Not to mention alot contain far too many artificial flavors and sugar by the bucket load.

I feed my chihuahua on Orijen and it is fantastic. The only other kibble I would even consider feeding is Taste Of The Wild or Acana. Ziwipeak is another great food but is a dehydrated raw not kibble.

The only other food I would feed is Prey Model RAW. Which is what i'm actually going to be changing onto once the last of our Orijen has ran out. 

Louie only gets 50g of Orijen a day, split into 2 meals and fed with water so he has enough liquid to properly digest his food. He only costs me about 20p a day to feed  

Great article
Your Dog Needs more than JUST FAST FOOD to THRIVE - Nutrition - The American Dog Magazine

Wanna know how bad the kibble is that you feed? Check it out
Dry dog food alphabetical index - kibble starting by A

About RAW
Raw Feeding FAQ


As far as i'm concerned kibble is the devil and should be avoided like the plague! Its only been man-made for human convenience and advertised to appeal to the human eye! I actually cringe everytime I see the Bakers Complete or Pedigree adverts. Bloody stupid clever marketing capaigns! I swear anyone who actually falls for that must be stupid! I mean Dentastix do NOT work and the concept of 'Gravy Bites' is just god-damn ridiculous! Quite frankly anyone who buys them needs shooting. Feeding super-market kibble is like giving your dog mcdonalds. I only buy my dog grain free kibble/treats and would NEVER feed him anything containing derivatives or grains. Its just unecessary


I've never seen a dog do badly on raw. You can really tell the difference between raw fed and kibble fed dogs. Raw fed dogs have an essence about them you do not get from kibble fed dogs. Anyone who feeds raw will agree with me on that


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Just out of interest - describe the "essence" to me please??


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## Pinkchi (Nov 23, 2009)

feorag said:


> Just out of interest - describe the "essence" to me please??


They just have a 'look' about them that I have not ever seen in a kibble fed dog. They almost seem to 'glow' with health

The coat is sleek and shiny, body slender and toned. Teeth pearly white

Too look at a dog on the outside, nothing can compare to Raw fed dogs. The difference is just amazing. 

I've never seen a kibble fed dog come close to looking as good Raw fed dog does. My dog is fed grain free kibble, the best you can get and he is no-where near the look of a Raw fed dog.

And believe me I know my dogs, I work with them :2thumb:


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Ive tried both burns and james wellbeloved for my patterdale. She was a lot better on james wellbeloved but one day i went to the tack shop and realised dobson and horrell do a range of dog food and found that that suited her better than burns and JW


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Pinkchi said:


> They just have a 'look' about them that I have not ever seen in a kibble fed dog. They almost seem to 'glow' with health
> 
> The coat is sleek and shiny, body slender and toned. Teeth pearly white
> 
> Too look at a dog on the outside, nothing can compare to Raw fed dogs. The difference is just amazing.


Excuse my scepticism, but I don't agree with that.

My dog is fed on dry food and I'm very happy with his coat and condition and his clean white teeth.


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

feorag said:


> Excuse my scepticism, but I don't agree with that.
> 
> My dog is fed on dry food and I'm very happy with his coat and condition and his clean white teeth.


I agree, my dogs teeth and coats, i couldnt be happier with, infact everyone always comments on their coats and how lovely they are.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

feorag said:


> Excuse my scepticism, but I don't agree with that.
> 
> *My dog is fed on dry food and I'm very happy with his coat and condition and his clean white teeth.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## jeweled lady (Aug 25, 2009)

Pinkchi said:


> I would never ever consider feeding anything that isn't grain free. Dogs do not need grain in their diet, it is merely used in kibble to bulk it out. 99.9% of commercial kibble contains very little meat, most not even actual meat but 'derivatives'. Not to mention alot contain far too many artificial flavors and sugar by the bucket load.
> 
> I feed my chihuahua on Orijen and it is fantastic. The only other kibble I would even consider feeding is Taste Of The Wild or Acana. Ziwipeak is another great food but is a dehydrated raw not kibble.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, even though you give people the facts in black and white about a natural diet, they still will not believe you. It's almost like some kind of blindness, they are unable to see or understand commonsense facts that dogs are unable to utilise carbohydrates. It may be because we eat carbs. and they can't get their heads around some animals don't.

You are quite right about being able to tell dogs that have been fed raw against those on dried. They absolutely glow with health and lovely shiny coats. My dogs never have to visit the vets for anything because they are never ailing.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Excuse me - I don't suffer from blindness and I can well understand a BARF diet if I wished to feed it, but quite simply I don't.

If my dog was sick or ailing or I felt a BARF diet would help, then I would feed it, but all my dogs have been fed a complete meal and all have had good, long (for their breed) healthy lives.

Maybe someone can post some photos of dogs fed on BARF and other who are fed complete meals and you and Pinchki can tell us which is which!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Pinkchi said:


> I've never seen a dog do badly on raw. You can really tell the difference between raw fed and kibble fed dogs. Raw fed dogs have an essence about them you do not get from kibble fed dogs. Anyone who feeds raw will agree with me on that


I have. 2 of my dogs did poorly on raw. I'm not against it or for it, but I dont think life is as simple as you think. Some dogs do ok on raw, some dont. Likewise with "kibble". Likewise with wet food. Likewise with....etc etc. Just because you've not had a bad experience, doesn't mean it's 100% perfect. It's not for all dogs.



feorag said:


> Excuse my scepticism, but I don't agree with that.
> 
> My dog is fed on dry food and I'm very happy with his coat and condition and his clean white teeth.


As were mine. On raw Blu was very sickly, poor skin, dandruff, acne. I soldiered on with it as the rescue told us we had to feed that or nothing. In the end I decided I knew what was best for him, and aimed to find a good complete food for him, no matter what the type, in order to make him well. And found it in Skinners.



jeweled lady said:


> Unfortunately, even though you give people the facts in black and white about a natural diet, they still will not believe you. It's almost like some kind of blindness, they are unable to see or understand commonsense facts that dogs are unable to utilise carbohydrates. It may be because we eat carbs. and they can't get their heads around some animals don't.
> 
> You are quite right about being able to tell dogs that have been fed raw against those on dried. They absolutely glow with health and lovely shiny coats. My dogs never have to visit the vets for anything because they are never ailing.


Well bully for you. Your dogs are ok so the whole world of dogs would be. Whatever...you say we're blind? ;-) 

I've never met a viciously-pro-Barfer who had an open mind.

IMO, BARF seems an ideal name for it. As that's what it made two of my dogs do....one went on to have long term colitis.

Yep, sparkly dogs with white teeth, the lot of them...lol.


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## ryanr1987 (Mar 7, 2009)

as far as i am aware iams do not do the animal testing anymore?
the dogs here have had beta, and mostly iams and bakers and have had no problems with that. a really high quality food is orijin but it is ridiculously priced.




Pinkchi said:


> They just have a 'look' about them that I have not ever seen in a kibble fed dog. They almost seem to 'glow' with health
> 
> The coat is sleek and shiny, body slender and toned. Teeth pearly white
> 
> ...


 i have been around many dogs which have been fed raw diet and have not noticed a single difference. i have seen dogs look amazing on pedigree chum and do brilliant on it.


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## Pinkchi (Nov 23, 2009)

feorag said:


> Excuse my scepticism, but I don't agree with that.
> 
> My dog is fed on dry food and I'm very happy with his coat and condition and his clean white teeth.


There is nothing really 'wrong' with my dogs coat as he is on Orijen, but I know it could be alot better. His teeth on the other hand is a whole other story. Kibble is just as bad for the teeth as wet food and i'm beginning to see a slight tartar build up on guy, and believe me i'm VERY careful over what he eats/chews



jeweled lady said:


> Unfortunately, even though you give people the facts in black and white about a natural diet, they still will not believe you. It's almost like some kind of blindness, they are unable to see or understand commonsense facts that dogs are unable to utilise carbohydrates. It may be because we eat carbs. and they can't get their heads around some animals don't.
> 
> You are quite right about being able to tell dogs that have been fed raw against those on dried. They absolutely glow with health and lovely shiny coats. My dogs never have to visit the vets for anything because they are never ailing.


:no1::2thumb: 




feorag said:


> Excuse me - I don't suffer from blindness and I can well understand a BARF diet if I wished to feed it, but quite simply I don't.
> 
> If my dog was sick or ailing or I felt a BARF diet would help, then I would feed it, but all my dogs have been fed a complete meal and all have had good, long (for their breed) healthy lives.
> 
> Maybe someone can post some photos of dogs fed on BARF and other who are fed complete meals and you and Pinchki can tell us which is which!


I am not bashing anyone for their own opinions, just putting mine across. Feeding your dog is a very personal choice and at the end of the day you do what you believe is best for your dog.

I do not believe in BARF as with that you feed raw vegetables which dogs cannot utilize at all. I believe in Prey Model RAW which is based on 10% bone, 10% organ and 80% meat which is not BARF in the slightest.

My dog does 'fine' on kibble and appears healthy but even top quality kibble is not good for him and I know that which is why I try to educate people the same way I found out about it. I was shocked when I found out what goes into food, which is why I am so against it as i've done so much blooming research. I hate it all for a reason, i'm not just spitting feathers for nothing I assure you!



LisaLQ said:


> I have. 2 of my dogs did poorly on raw. I'm not against it or for it, but I dont think life is as simple as you think. Some dogs do ok on raw, some dont. Likewise with "kibble". Likewise with wet food. Likewise with....etc etc. Just because you've not had a bad experience, doesn't mean it's 100% perfect. It's not for all dogs.
> 
> IMO, BARF seems an ideal name for it. As that's what it made two of my dogs do....one went on to have long term colitis.
> 
> Yep, sparkly dogs with white teeth, the lot of them...lol.


Just because I said i'd never seen a dog do bad on raw doesn't mean there arent any dogs that dont do badly on it.

Some dogs get a 'detox' period when the start out, and in a way become 'worse before they come better'. They can shed loads and itch and occasionally puke, but thats all the body adjusting to the concept of utilizing everything it eats. Its a completly different digestive process to dried foods. The body flushes out all the rubbish kibble puts in which is why some of the above may be experienced.

I am still convinced that any dog can do well on raw given the chance to properly adjust, but I have not seen any dog react badly to raw. The one case I have heard of was where a dog had a severe allergy to meat protein and had to live on a vegetarian kibble. Which in my opinion is just ridiculous as dogs are born to eat meat. I assume the dog must have come from badly bred lines to have an allergy so severe it could not stomach meat protein at all. Quite sad really it couldnt do as nature intended.

As said above I dont agree with the concept of BARF, but follow Prey Model RAW :2thumb:

And i'd love to know how everyone who feeds kibble have dogs with 'perfect' teeth as I just don't see that myself. I've seen the damage first hand that kibble can do and what its doing to my chihuahuas teeth in only a few months!



ryanr1987 said:


> as far as i am aware iams do not do the animal testing anymore?
> the dogs here have had beta, and mostly iams and bakers and have had no problems with that. a really high quality food is orijin but it is ridiculously priced.
> 
> 
> i have been around many dogs which have been fed raw diet and have not noticed a single difference. i have seen dogs look amazing on pedigree chum and do brilliant on it.


No idea on Iams to be honest I avoid them with a bargepole. 
Iams and Bakers are about as bad as you can go. Bakers full of crap and sugar and colours. 

I don't think Orijen is ridiculously priced at all! A £30 bag has lasted me more than 6mths! If I were using a cheaper brand I would have probably spent more than double that. It costs me like 20p a day to feed my dog on Orijen. It will be more expensive for those with bigger dogs but i'm sure it will still work out cheaper if you sit and work it out as the amount they need to eat is considerably less than other kibble.

I work at a dog kennels and I can admit that yes alot of dogs do look 'good', but they aren't even close to a raw fed dog. Some dogs do appear to do well on kibble but the damage is being done on the inside not the outside thats the problem.


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## ryanr1987 (Mar 7, 2009)

Pinkchi said:


> There is nothing really 'wrong' with my dogs coat as he is on Orijen, but I know it could be alot better. His teeth on the other hand is a whole other story. Kibble is just as bad for the teeth as wet food and i'm beginning to see a slight tartar build up on guy, and believe me i'm VERY careful over what he eats/chews
> 
> 
> 
> ...


how big are your orijen bags? reason i said the price is so silly is because i got quoted a 15kg bag for over 60+ quid which would not last a 98lb German shepherd and a similar sized rottweilier very long at all. if your bags are a decent sized bag could you please put me in the direction of where you get yours


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

The detox period does not apply to my dogs, as they were fed raw in their foster homes too, for a year. And had all sorts of ointments, shampoos and creams to pass on with him. Changed to dry after months of trying to get him to eat raw at all (he hated it), and he ended up in much better condition.

I dont buy the detox thing personally, I'm sure there is some but not to the extent where a dog becomes ill from it. I think it's often bandied about to get people to stick with raw when it clearly isnt working.

Again, I'm not anti-raw, I'm just anti-oneruleforall. And the majority of raw supporters simply cannot see past raw.


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

LisaLQ said:


> The detox period does not apply to my dogs, as they were fed raw in their foster homes too, for a year. And had all sorts of ointments, shampoos and creams to pass on with him. Changed to dry after months of trying to get him to eat raw at all (he hated it), and he ended up in much better condition.
> 
> I dont buy the detox thing personally, I'm sure there is some but not to the extent where a dog becomes ill from it. I think it's often bandied about to get people to stick with raw when it clearly isnt working.
> 
> Again, I'm not anti-raw, I'm just anti-oneruleforall. And the majority of raw supporters simply cannot see past raw.


Couldnt agree more, my boy was on it for a good few months, he dropped stupid amounts of weight (and i keep my dogs lean anyway )he was being sick daily and ended up being rushed into the vets. My own vet feeds raw and even he said not all dogs get on well with raw. 
As for the teeth and coat thing i have just double checked my dogs and they dont have a single bit of plaque anywhere and their coats honestly couldnt be better. 
Again i am not anti raw, i am also not of the mind set that raw is the king of what to feed your dog and nothing else will do.


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

I've found this thread really helpful and interesting. 

My oldie rescue was absolutely thriving on raw food (but I've never been too precious about it, she has commercial when we're travelling etc so pretty regularly) but had some teeth out including her two canines and we tried her with chicken wings last night which she literally can no longer eat. 

The only person I know who's fed orijen said it made her dog's skin terrible and itchy and since I have a crested whose skin is a battle to keep under control I'm not happy to take the risk trying it. Also not too keen on imported food due to all the air miles.

I've only heard good things about Darling's - has anyone tried their prepared raw foods?

Or does anyone have any suggestions for something suitable? (Nature diet gives her diorrhea)

Would prefer something with a decent meat content.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

You can get minced raw foods from most raw suppliers, or from larger pet supermarkets such as Jollye's and Pets at Home.


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

Willit point blankly refuses to eat raw meat! What to do? I persevered, tried numerous different types and forms but to no avail. He just looks at me as if 'you expect me to eat that?!'


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

LisaLQ said:


> You can get minced raw foods from most raw suppliers, or from larger pet supermarkets such as Jollye's and Pets at Home.


Thanks, our [email protected] seems only to have things mixed with tripe which makes her sick! 

Think I might try Autarky or Skinners with minced meat. A bit worried it will be too rich for her and go straight through her now she's older, though?

I'm absolutely gutted as had found something which worked so well for her but am open to any ideas, including complete dog foods.

Would prefer something British made, preferably independent, good quality, hypoallergenic ingredients.


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## Pinkchi (Nov 23, 2009)

ryanr1987 said:


> how big are your orijen bags? reason i said the price is so silly is because i got quoted a 15kg bag for over 60+ quid which would not last a 98lb German shepherd and a similar sized rottweilier very long at all. if your bags are a decent sized bag could you please put me in the direction of where you get yours


I buy my Orijen from Zooplus but it has recently gone up in price. From £29.99 for 7kg to £34.99  Thats just the Adult one and not a 'flavor' one.

What about Acana? Made by the same company, but lower in price and slightly lower protein.
£44.90 for 13.5 kg :2thumb:
Acana Adult Dog - Great deals at zooplus

Or Taste Of The Wild is another good grain free kibble but I think Acana is cheapest
Great Deals on Taste of the Wild dog food at zooplus!

You get free deliver on orders over £19 and first time customers get 10% off. If you sign up to the newletter they always have money off things etc




LisaLQ said:


> The detox period does not apply to my dogs, as they were fed raw in their foster homes too, for a year. And had all sorts of ointments, shampoos and creams to pass on with him. Changed to dry after months of trying to get him to eat raw at all (he hated it), and he ended up in much better condition.
> 
> I dont buy the detox thing personally, I'm sure there is some but not to the extent where a dog becomes ill from it. I think it's often bandied about to get people to stick with raw when it clearly isnt working.
> 
> Again, I'm not anti-raw, I'm just anti-oneruleforall. And the majority of raw supporters simply cannot see past raw.


I'm not necessarly anti kibble, if it works for you dog fine, I just wish more people were more aware of what goes in it 
I cringe when I see people buying Tesco own brand or Bakers etc as I know how bad it it but people either don't know or don't give a rats ass 

I think if people are going to feed kibble at all then I think grain free as natural as possible is the way to go. The prices are slightly higher because of the quality but it actually works out pretty well if you sit and figure out how much it will cost to feed per day.

I would never get an animal without researching into it first and I think researching dog food should be part of that.

To me, kibble sold in supermarkets is as bad as feeding rats on reggie rat 

Most raw supporters cannot see past it because its so good. It really does work and when their dogs thrive on it they need to pass it on to other dog owners because they see how well their dog is doing on it.



annabel said:


> I've found this thread really helpful and interesting.
> 
> The only person I know who's fed orijen said it made her dog's skin terrible and itchy and since I have a crested whose skin is a battle to keep under control I'm not happy to take the risk trying it. Also not too keen on imported food due to all the air miles.
> 
> ...


Try salmon oil for your crested's skin, or flax seed oil or vitamn E. 

Natures menu do frozen nuggets/mince blocks 
Natures Menu − Natural Dog Food and Natural Cat Food| BARF diet, Raw dog food, Natural Feeding, Natural Pet Food, BARF for dogs

Or Natural Instinct do raw minces
Natural Instinct - Home

I've never heard anything bad about Orijen. Only seen good results myself



pippainnit said:


> Willit point blankly refuses to eat raw meat! What to do? I persevered, tried numerous different types and forms but to no avail. He just looks at me as if 'you expect me to eat that?!'


The trouble is raw food doesn't really have a smell so some take a while to associate it with food. Try crushing some of his dry food and sprinkling it on on if he has wet food smear a bit on to it.

They key is persitence. Offer him nothing else and he will soon learn it is food


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Pinkchi said:


> I do not believe in BARF as with that you feed raw vegetables which dogs cannot utilize at all. I believe in Prey Model RAW which is based on 10% bone, 10% organ and 80% meat which is not BARF in the slightest.
> 
> .


BARF is Bones And Raw Food. No mention that you MUST include vegetables


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## Emsylove (Mar 16, 2009)

i feed my boxer eukanuba (i think thats how its spelt)
but i dont know if they do animal testing or not all i know is it is one of the only foods that dont give him a bad tummy


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Meko said:


> BARF is Bones And Raw Food. No mention that you MUST include vegetables


Although that is what it is most commonly said to mean the original coining of BARF was Ian Billinghurst splitting from the raw meat diet and deciding the dogs needed veg, a lot of veg. Originally it stood for Born again Raw feeders to those outside the new group, and Biologically Appropriate Raw Food to those within the new group. But even though he didnt coin the phrase Dr Billinghurst has the registered trademark BARF diet so it would be legally fair to say it refers to his diet, with lots of veg.

Im sorry to say, now it is most often used to mean what you said, originally it was was used for raw feeding, legally it is very specific to his diet with veg, neither side can win this argument as both are equal

I feed my dogs as someone 100 years ago may have fed their dogs, healthy scraps and meat. My dogs eat veg with their roast on a Sunday, and often baked beans with their eggs, but otherwise they are pure carnivores. I do believe naturally dogs would have some veg, very small amounts, if only from the gastric tract of their food. I myself saw dingoes eating fair amounts of grass.



Pinkchi said:


> I mean Dentastix do NOT work and the concept of 'Gravy Bites' is just god-damn ridiculous! Quite frankly anyone who buys them needs shooting.


My dogs adore dentastixs and they have half of one each a night from their Dad, it is something he does with them, bedtime wee's and dentastixs. Im not a control freak, they love them and very excited about bedtime, and he likes doing it, who are you or indeed who am I to say that's bollocks stop doing it. I don't expect them to get clean teeth from them, they get that from chicken wings, but they are no worse than any other treats.


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