# Thoughts??????



## Cold blooded but prime (May 22, 2009)

I wonder if and at what point reptiles will become domesticated pets like cats and dogs I recon snakes like burms and lizards like beardies will be domesticated first and many others to follow. I mean cats and dogs have been kept for a longggggg time in compare I dont know how long reptiles have been kept or if reptiles will ever be domesticated to the same level but you could say some cats and dogs are still wild or maybe they are more feral infact! Anyway I would say my burm is more domesticated than my horribale cat! lol 

Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming refers to the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control. The most common form of domestication is artificial selection by humans. ...

That is taken from wikipedia but I wouldnt say a cat is controled to the same level a dog is yet its domesticated, and I would say that since some reptiles are accustome to control and provision can they be termd domesticated? look at beardies for example with handling,walking, feeding etc human interaction!

Wat we think?


----------



## buddah (Dec 23, 2009)

could this be possible considering that reptiles have very primitive brains.


----------



## Jade01 (Feb 21, 2007)

Its gonna take a fair few hundred years at least, waayyyy after we've all gone!


----------



## Cold blooded but prime (May 22, 2009)

hmmm could we say at present tho a beardie is a domesticated animal?


----------



## Gileadites (Jan 19, 2010)

Wikipedia sadly not the font of all knowledge but, as to domestication of reptiles I would say it is never likely to happen for a whole host of reasons including the evolution of a species.

Take humans for example we have stopped evolving and started creating not the same thing but then conversly it could be argued that because someone is able to invent they have evolved because of it.


----------



## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

buddah said:


> could this be possible considering that reptiles have very primitive brains.


agreed...
reptiles in general dont have the 'capability' to be domesticated


----------



## Cold blooded but prime (May 22, 2009)

sorry, correct me if im wrong but doesnt primitive mean not as superior or sophisticated to something else? If we applied this to say; a snake isnt as sophistacted as a cat and there for can never be capable of domestication would that be a fair comment? 

many posts have been put on rfuk with regards to beardies , burms etc being able to reconise or distinguish certain people/their owner is this not the same as a cat? I mean I know cats and dogs seek companionship but I strongly believe my iguana does too.... I mean she sulks and doesnt eat for days when I go on holiday, she reguarly comes to the viv when im home and sits on me in front of the tv being scratched etc but I suppose this is lizards not snakes?




alan1 said:


> agreed...
> reptiles in general dont have the 'capability' to be domesticated


----------



## buddah (Dec 23, 2009)

it is tough, but i know what you mean when you say you think the reptile may regonise its owner, i think that i see this in my geckos they come to the doors of the viv when im in the room and jump on my hand when i open it. 
but i do not think this is anything more than an object being me or you being associated to food to the reptile.

i think reptiles are smarter than most people give them credit for but as for demestication i dont think it is possible, as there nervous system and brain are very simple.

but im not a scientist and i dont know what part of the brain is needed to become domesticated.


----------



## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

If you take 100 cats, or 100 dogs, and let them loose from their homes, I think a question is how many of them want to return, and will choose to return (jf they can find their way) to their owners. I think the answer is in the majority, most, if they can find their way home, will return home (assuming they've been well treated of course). They choose to live with us. Cats go out every day, some are shut out all night, and the vast majority return to their home the next day, perhaps for food, perhaps for warmth, perhaps they like the companionship, but they recognise humans as providing those things and are not afraid of us, so they come back.

Let a snake out of it's viv and you will never see it again, unless it's by accident and it didn't intend to be seen :lol2:

That's one of the primary differences I see between reptiles and cats/dogs. I do not think a reptile will ever choose to return to it's owner with any actual thought process.


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> I wonder if and at what point reptiles will become domesticated pets like cats and dogs I recon snakes like burms and lizards like beardies will be domesticated first and many others to follow. I mean cats and dogs have been kept for a longggggg time in compare I dont know how long reptiles have been kept or if reptiles will ever be domesticated to the same level but you could say some cats and dogs are still wild or maybe they are more feral infact! Anyway I would say my burm is more domesticated than my horribale cat! lol
> 
> Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming refers to the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control. The most common form of domestication is artificial selection by humans. ...
> 
> ...


The (captive bred) production of morphs and hybrids is about as close to domestication as you'll get with reptiles, in my opinion. I'm thinking here more in terms of how the selective breeding associated with domestication can alter the natural appearence of specimens (see dog breeds as a prime example) rather than in terms of the taming process associated with the domestication of cats and dogs.


----------



## Cold blooded but prime (May 22, 2009)

In summer when my igy is out in the garden when she has had enough she walks in the side door into the sitting room through the kitchen up 2 sets of stairs and into the bedroom where her viv is could this be pressumed as her coming home lol?

The viv opens when im home and she comes out and sits on me as I scratch her, and she definatley acts different around certain individuals, she is sooo friendly with me, my sister and my gf yet she wont go anywhere near my mum or brother or grandma and my mum and brother keep reps so its not a nervous thing.

I can see what your saying and I have mixed views but I cant help but think from what I see with my iggy, peoples beardies, and burms that at some stage in life these animals mite become domesticated?


----------



## Cold blooded but prime (May 22, 2009)

Yea I see what everyone is saying with breeding and most association is to do with food, all very interesting so far.

With regards to snakes yea I agree they wouldnt come home but cats are known to ditch owners too I mean our cat is horribale and so dippy that mite be her flaw as a blonde but I would concider my iguana more domesticated than her lol


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> In summer when my igy is out in the garden when she has had enough she walks in the side door into the sitting room through the kitchen up 2 sets of stairs and into the bedroom where her viv is could this be pressumed as her coming home lol?
> 
> The viv opens when im home and she comes out and sits on me as I scratch her, and she definatley acts different around certain individuals, she is sooo friendly with me, my sister and my gf yet she wont go anywhere near my mum or brother or grandma and my mum and brother keep reps so its not a nervous thing.
> 
> I can see what your saying and I have mixed views but I cant help but think from what I see with my iggy, peoples beardies, and burms that at some stage in life these animals mite become domesticated?


But it all depends upon your definition of "domesticated". Sure, you could class your iggy as domesticated...but only if you water-down the _common-usage_ definition of what domesticated means so that it fits the behaviour that you're seeing. If you watered down the definition even more you could probably make some distinctions between wild tarantulas and captive bred ones so that you could describe CB tarantulas as domesticated. Water-down some more and you've got domesticated crickets that you're about to feed to domesticated lizards!! :lol2:

Reptile biology and mental ability is very different to that of _relatively_ intelligent mammals such as cats and dogs. To suppose that reptiles could somehow achieve the same levels of domestication just through being kept as pets - without undergoing quite significant levels of evolutionary change - is a bit unrealistic in my opinion.


----------



## Cold blooded but prime (May 22, 2009)

lol yea ok see your point!



essexchondro said:


> But it all depends upon your definition of "domesticated". Sure, you could class your iggy as domesticated...but only if you water-down the _common-usage_ definition of what domesticated means so that it fits the behaviour that you're seeing. If you watered down the definition even more you could probably make some distinctions between wild tarantulas and captive bred ones so that you could describe CB tarantulas as domesticated. Water-down some more and you've got domesticated crickets that you're about to feed to domesticated lizards!! :lol2:
> 
> Reptile biology and mental ability is very different to that of _relatively_ intelligent mammals such as cats and dogs. To suppose that reptiles could somehow achieve the same levels of domestication just through being kept as pets - without undergoing quite significant levels of evolutionary change - is a bit unrealistic in my opinion.


----------



## hephev (Jan 12, 2010)

Athravan said:


> If you take 100 cats, or 100 dogs, and let them loose from their homes, I think a question is how many of them want to return, and will choose to return (jf they can find their way) to their owners. I think the answer is in the majority, most, if they can find their way home, will return home (assuming they've been well treated of course). They choose to live with us. Cats go out every day, some are shut out all night, and the vast majority return to their home the next day, perhaps for food, perhaps for warmth, perhaps they like the companionship, but they recognise humans as providing those things and are not afraid of us, so they come back.
> 
> Let a snake out of it's viv and you will never see it again, unless it's by accident and it didn't intend to be seen :lol2:
> 
> That's one of the primary differences I see between reptiles and cats/dogs. I do not think a reptile will ever choose to return to it's owner with any actual thought process.


OMG are you trying to say that my reps don't love me?!?!?!?! How dare you!!!!!!:whistling2:


----------



## Luca Brasi (Feb 7, 2010)

Cold blooded but prime said:


> I wonder if and at what point reptiles will become domesticated pets like cats and dogs I recon snakes like burms and lizards like beardies will be domesticated first and many others to follow. I mean cats and dogs have been kept for a longggggg time in compare I dont know how long reptiles have been kept or if reptiles will ever be domesticated to the same level but you could say some cats and dogs are still wild or maybe they are more feral infact! Anyway I would say my burm is more domesticated than my horribale cat! lol
> 
> Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming refers to the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control. The most common form of domestication is artificial selection by humans. ...
> 
> ...


It won't ever happen. Simples...


----------



## becky89 (Nov 24, 2009)

I think maybe as well, animals like cats and dogs are not always solitairy, they do desire companionship, so this may be why we have been able to domesticate them? I can't see us being able to do this with reptiles though, as long as they're getting fed and watered I don't think they're actually that bothered, they don't need companionship!


----------



## Cold blooded but prime (May 22, 2009)

see I dissagree with this, to an extent. I mean not all reptiles but some I believe do enjoy companionship weather they need it or not is different as you could say a cat doesnt really need companionship and will manage fine on its own and neither do reptiles but cats enjoy companionship as do i believe some reptiles.
so for that reason I think domestication could be possible maybe just at some form of a different level. 



becky89 said:


> I think maybe as well, animals like cats and dogs are not always solitairy, they do desire companionship, so this may be why we have been able to domesticate them? I can't see us being able to do this with reptiles though, as long as they're getting fed and watered I don't think they're actually that bothered, they don't need companionship!


----------



## Cold blooded but prime (May 22, 2009)

How can you say....... it wont ever happen simples lol its not as simple or black and white as that!



Luca Brasi said:


> It won't ever happen. Simples...


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> see I dissagree with this, to an extent. I mean not all reptiles but some I believe do enjoy companionship weather they need it or not is different as you could say a cat doesnt really need companionship and will manage fine on its own and neither do reptiles but cats enjoy companionship as do i believe some reptiles.
> so for that reason I think domestication could be possible maybe just at some form of a different level.


But what_* evidence*_ can you provide that proves that reptiles "enjoy" human companionship? It's all well and good saying that you_ believe_ they enjoy it, but without evidence that could be nothing more than wishful thinking on your part; a case of you "seeing what you want to see". It's human nature to want something that you love to love you back and this kind of anthropomorphism is something that a great many "pet" reptile keepers seem to be guilty of, in my opinion.

Suggesting that "domestication could be possible maybe just at some form of a different level" goes back to the point I made earlier about watering-down the definition of what domestication is. All you're really suggesting is to change the meaning of domestication so that the behaviour you're seeing in reptiles can qualify as domesticated! In other words, you're dragging the meaning of the term down, rather than acknowledging that the behaviour of reptiles should be elevated to the status of "domesticated".


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

herps are being domesticated as we speak... just like those goofy goldfish with all kinds of human engineered deformities...


we already have them to where they couldn't survive as a wild animal...


morphs... designer snakes... all those things are part of the domestication process...


we never leave well enough alone... nature is never good enough for us.


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> herps are being domesticated as we speak... just like those goofy goldfish with all kinds of human engineered deformities...
> 
> 
> we already have them to where they couldn't survive as a wild animal...
> ...


Any captive bred reptile is part of a _domestication process_ if you want to frame the debate in those terms, though, regardless of whether or not it's a morph.


----------



## Cold blooded but prime (May 22, 2009)

yea... I didnt think of all that.



HABU said:


> herps are being domesticated as we speak... just like those goofy goldfish with all kinds of human engineered deformities...
> 
> 
> we already have them to where they couldn't survive as a wild animal...
> ...


----------



## Luca Brasi (Feb 7, 2010)

Cold blooded but prime said:


> How can you say....... it wont ever happen simples lol its not as simple or black and white as that!


 
Well I could write several paragraphs, but to summarise very quickly I can say that because I understand the difference between animal behaviour and human emotion. 

LB


----------



## Cold blooded but prime (May 22, 2009)

The evidence is how you see the animal act around you, is this not what is proff with evidence of cats? because of the way they act around humans would imply they enjoy companionship, I would say that the way my iguana acts towards me and others is evidence of her enjoying companionship.
I dont see what I want to see, I see what I see and I see that my iguana shows evidence of companionship with me where as I wouldnt say my burm shows the same companionship lol



essexchondro said:


> But what_* evidence*_ can you provide that proves that reptiles "enjoy" human companionship? It's all well and good saying that you_ believe_ they enjoy it, but without evidence that could be nothing more than wishful thinking on your part; a case of you "seeing what you want to see". It's human nature to want something that you love to love you back and this kind of anthropomorphism is something that a great many "pet" reptile keepers seem to be guilty of, in my opinion.
> 
> Suggesting that "domestication could be possible maybe just at some form of a different level" goes back to the point I made earlier about watering-down the definition of what domestication is. All you're really suggesting is to change the meaning of domestication so that the behaviour you're seeing in reptiles can qualify as domesticated! In other words, you're dragging the meaning of the term down, rather than acknowledging that the behaviour of reptiles should be elevated to the status of "domesticated".


----------



## Cold blooded but prime (May 22, 2009)

oh no I definatley agree that there is a difference between human emotion and animal emotion I dont think anyone would deni that. But it would be interesting to read these paragraphs on your thoughts of this :2thumb:



Luca Brasi said:


> Well I could write several paragraphs, but to summarise very quickly I can say that because I understand the difference between animal behaviour and human emotion.
> 
> LB


----------



## Luca Brasi (Feb 7, 2010)

Cold blooded but prime said:


> oh no I definatley agree that there is a difference between human emotion and animal emotion I dont think anyone would deni that. But it would be interesting to read these paragraphs on your thoughts of this :2thumb:


I don't have too many thoughts on animal emotion.  

Their behaviour fascinates me though. Always has.


----------



## becky89 (Nov 24, 2009)

I don't feel that reptiles have emotion though... rather they're driven by instinct. I mean like with animals such as dogs, you can tell that there is some emotion, like when they're excited to see you, I just don't get that vibe from reps. Sure they might come out to see you when you're around, but I'd guess that's because you're a source of food more than anything


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> The evidence is how you see the animal act around you, is this not what is proff with evidence of cats? because of the way they act around humans would imply they enjoy companionship, I would say that the way my iguana acts towards me and others is evidence of her enjoying companionship.
> I dont see what I want to see, I see what I see and I see that my iguana shows evidence of companionship with me where as I wouldnt say my burm shows the same companionship lol


But you're emphasising your own particular _interpretation_ of that evidence to give the result you're looking for. That's hardly a scientific analysis (especially with a sample size of just one animal). If all of the behaviour that you're interpreting as evidence of the _enjoyment_ of human companionship can be more plausibly explained simply in terms of the animals natural behaviour traits and tendencies then that evidence is not very strong evidence for the notion that the reptile enjoys human companionship.


----------



## Cold blooded but prime (May 22, 2009)

I do see both sides of this and completly agree with you, if someone said to me my iguana shows emotion I would probaly think hmmmm really? but I find that my female ig does not act on instinct and is such a character from my other igs that only see me as food and something moving in the room, but as you say this mite just be me with wishfull thinking :sad:



essexchondro said:


> But you're emphasising your own particular _interpretation_ of that evidence to give the result you're looking for. That's hardly a scientific analysis (especially with a sample size of just one animal). If all of the behaviour that you're interpreting as evidence of the _enjoyment_ of human companionship can be more plausibly explained simply in terms of the animals natural behaviour traits and tendencies then that evidence is not very strong evidence for the notion that the reptile enjoys human companionship.


----------



## becky89 (Nov 24, 2009)

Cold blooded but prime said:


> I do see both sides of this and completly agree with you, if someone said to me my iguana shows emotion I would probaly think hmmmm really? but I find that my female ig does not act on instinct and is such a character from my other igs that only see me as food and something moving in the room, but as you say this mite just be me with wishfull thinking :sad:


It's only too natural to want pets to have emotions too  But think of it this way, at least your iggy isn't trying to rip your face off lol, so something's going right


----------



## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

One of the best ways to consider whether or not a species is "domesticated" is whether it has been bred to provide a service or purpose useful to man. Cats are not domesticated - they are quite capable of surviving by themselves without us to care for them, and even when adequately fed will still go off and actively hunt birds, small mammals, reptiles etc, because they are still displaying wild behaviour. They serve no purpose other than as a companion animal.
Dogs, on the other hand, have been selectively bred over hundreds of years for specific purposes, such as herding (sheepdogs), hunting (various terriers etc) and protection of livestock (the original purpose of many of the larger breeds which were bred to help the shephard or farmer to protect their stock from wolves, bears, and other predators).
Cattle, sheep, pigs etc have all been selectively bred to produce leaner meat, larger milk yields etc.
Given that reptiles are not used for a purpose useful to man, they are not domesticated and cannot be seen as being domesticated in the future.
I know that some species, ie venomous species, are used to obtain venom for various mediacl purposes but they have not been selectively bred to produce larger quantities so are not domesticated, and with the specied which are eaten, again, they have not been selectively bred for leaner meat, or to be bigger to gain more meat from the animal, so again are not domesticated.
Selective breeding to produce new morphs does not equate to domestication.


----------



## Cold blooded but prime (May 22, 2009)

:lol2:



becky89 said:


> It's only too natural to want pets to have emotions too  But think of it this way, at least your iggy isn't trying to rip your face off lol, so something's going right


----------



## Cold blooded but prime (May 22, 2009)

yea thats a good way to look at it.



ian14 said:


> One of the best ways to consider whether or not a species is "domesticated" is whether it has been bred to provide a service or purpose useful to man. Cats are not domesticated - they are quite capable of surviving by themselves without us to care for them, and even when adequately fed will still go off and actively hunt birds, small mammals, reptiles etc, because they are still displaying wild behaviour. They serve no purpose other than as a companion animal.
> Dogs, on the other hand, have been selectively bred over hundreds of years for specific purposes, such as herding (sheepdogs), hunting (various terriers etc) and protection of livestock (the original purpose of many of the larger breeds which were bred to help the shephard or farmer to protect their stock from wolves, bears, and other predators).
> Cattle, sheep, pigs etc have all been selectively bred to produce leaner meat, larger milk yields etc.
> Given that reptiles are not used for a purpose useful to man, they are not domesticated and cannot be seen as being domesticated in the future.
> ...


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> One of the best ways to consider whether or not a species is "domesticated" is whether it has been bred to provide a service or purpose useful to man. Cats are not domesticated - they are quite capable of surviving by themselves without us to care for them, and even when adequately fed will still go off and actively hunt birds, small mammals, reptiles etc, because they are still displaying wild behaviour. They serve no purpose other than as a companion animal.
> Dogs, on the other hand, have been selectively bred over hundreds of years for specific purposes, such as herding (sheepdogs), hunting (various terriers etc) and protection of livestock (the original purpose of many of the larger breeds which were bred to help the shephard or farmer to protect their stock from wolves, bears, and other predators).
> Cattle, sheep, pigs etc have all been selectively bred to produce leaner meat, larger milk yields etc.
> Given that reptiles are not used for a purpose useful to man, they are not domesticated and cannot be seen as being domesticated in the future.
> ...


But surely morphs _have_ been selectively bred to "provide a service or purpose useful to man". Granted, that service/purpose isn't a practical/working one as with the case of herding or hunting dogs, but they do fulfil an "aesthetic need" (some might say a "fashion need") in much the same way that many of the "Toy Dog" breeds do, for example. 

This is what one dog breed website says about toy dogs;

Dogs in the Toy Group were initially developed to ease the lifestyle and provide pleasure to rich people. These dogs were initially owned by the wealthy and were viewed by others as status symbols - a luxury item with little apparent purpose.

That could have pretty much been written about snake morphs!!!


----------

