# Rather annoyed



## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

We have gotten a leopard gecko from someone on here and it has a problem, we are being accused of not looking after her and mis treating her despite the fact all out other leos are in great health and have no isse and have the same setups.

why does the selller always blame the buyer.

After the vets see the leo tomorrrow i will be prooving to them that the leo is on good health apart from the condition that has occured recently which also will be proved to not have happened due to our care. After all Vets are able to tell how long something has been ther before.

We keep almost 25 leos now and they are all cared for individually, they have their own records and all sorts even the adults.

I will start a name and shame thread shortly under approval of the mods if this person doesnt buck up their ideas and accept that the issue may have been there before i got the leo.

I have never mis treated a reptile and never intend to start doing so, this has annoyed me very much.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

messengermatt said:


> We have gotten a leopard gecko from someone on here and it has a problem, we are being accused of not looking after her and mis treating her despite the fact all out other leos are in great health and have no isse and have the same setups.
> 
> why does the selller always blame the buyer.
> 
> ...



Im not really sure what you want from this thread, it really isn't clear. You don't say how long you have had the gecko, what the condition is... in fact you don't really say anything. I'm also not sure what you want to achieve with a name and shame? Geckos get ill, unfortunately it happens...

I would think much more information would need to be provided to accurately access the situation.

Andy


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

messengermatt said:


> We have gotten a leopard gecko from someone on here and it has a problem, we are being accused of not looking after her and mis treating her despite the fact all out other leos are in great health and have no isse and have the same setups.
> 
> why does the selller always blame the buyer.
> 
> ...


 
The seller blames the buyer because that way they dont have to issue a full refund.. simple

I have also never mistreated a reptile but have bought reptiles with obvious and ongoing health conditions before.. so obvious and noticeable it begs the question how the seller had not managed to see them..

you would probably be better using the classifieds chat forum to begin a thread if you are not happy... with full facts. details and how long you had the animal before issues were noticed..

my most recent issue i notified the seller within 30 minutes of me having the animal in my care.. how long did you have the leo before notifying.. if several days or weeks it is possible the seller had not seen any issue or not checked the animal before selling..

i think ALL sellers should check their animals before selling.. some dont and many as you well know blame the buyer for not viewinig the animal FIRST and then relinquish responsibility..

Its a real pity you have had to deal with something like this.. I for one know how it feels only too well


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## oakelm (Jan 14, 2009)

Agree without further details it is hard to comment.

But on the flip side if this condition is noticeable why wasnt it spotted by you at the time of purchase?? Im more of a snakes person so dont know how easy it is to spot whatever your little one has got but thats the thing with sales most people work on the principle that if you havent ask to return and refund within say 3 days then after that time its hard to say if the new owners care has caused the issue or not.


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

The seller was notified the same day i do believe in the evening and has been kept upto date for the almost every 2 days or so since then.

We have had the leo for about 2 and a half weeks now.

I have had someone else take a look at they said the deformity is more serious that it appears because deformed eyelids etc dont offer the same protection to the eye has a normallly formed one would and also it has been suggested poor incubation caused this so how could it be my fault?

When we got her she seemed ok but that night she developed weepy eyes, we cleared this up and again the next day we had weepy eyes. 
this is ongoing now and she came to shed and that was a disaster, she got all tangled her eyes were totally mangled up so we removed the shed.

48 hours after this she seemed fine, not the case as i went to feed her and her eyes were jammed shut, i cant get her to open one of her eyes at all.

Am off to the vet today for a diagnosis and will be posting the vet report on here afterwards for all to see.

She has a setup identical to all our other girlies and they are absolutely fine, all weight over 50g etc this little girl isnt even in the breeding plans for this year either so there is no fear of her being bred to exagerate her already present health problem.

The seller is now accusing me of bad husbandry and also saying that i have no idea what im talking about.

Pics of the setups etc will be put on here soon to show that they get exactly what is required of them, i eveninvite you all to come and see my collections just so you have no reason to doubt how i would treat a reptile.

I spoke to the vet on the phone yesterday afternoon and he promptly said to me there is no way this issue was caused by us but has been there since birth i.e. a defect so again how is this my fault ?


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## oakelm (Jan 14, 2009)

All makes better sense now. If you advised the seller of this issue and they are a good seller they should have offered a refund. With a vet report especially if it were me selling and I had somehow missed it then I would offer a refund and take the animal back if the new owner no longer wanted the animal due to the health reasons.
But all depends on the seller, either way I doubt you would get your vet bills paid for unfortunately.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

> I have had someone else take a look at they said the deformity is more serious that it appears because deformed eyelids etc dont offer the same protection to the eye has a normallly formed one would and also it has been suggested poor incubation caused this so how could it be my fault?


Ok, knowing a little more about the condition makes it a little easier to comment on the situation. There are a number of reasons why individuals are born with deformities, but it is pretty much impossible to know which of those reasons IS responsible. This makes suggesting reasons impossible, and assigning blame impossible (obviously you weren't doing this). 
However I suspect it is possible to miss deformed eyelids depending on the severity of the case, and the age of the animal. This really is why it is important to see the animal before you buy it.

With this in mind it is very possible that a combination of stress and environmental conditions at your place (either out of, or within your control) triggered the weeping response which may genuinely not have happened before. I will stress that I am only suggesting it is possible, although it to me it seems quite likely. Again though we still need more information on the gecko, and as such this is probably not the responsibility of the seller.

As for the vet, they will not be able to tell you if this has happened before, what they will be able to tell you is what you already know, that it has a deformity, and perhaps an infection. They will NOT be able to tell you how long it has had the infection.

My advise then would be, IF you did not know about the deformity, approach the seller about a re-fund or exchange. The item was not as described. If you did know about the deformity, then unfortunately eye infections or irritations may be part and parcel of the gecko.

Andy


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

messengermatt said:


> I spoke to the vet on the phone yesterday afternoon and he promptly said to me there is no way this issue was caused by us but has been there since birth i.e. a defect so again how is this my fault ?


 
its not your fault but now you understand at least what i was trying to tell you months ago when I had the same issue and you said the problem was MY fault for not checking the animal over... .. its the zen slap.. we dont understand where a person is coming from till it happens to us..

As you also know the gecko I bought has an eye deformity ( something i did not know about).. very obvious to the naked eye and will require regular check ups to check for enlargement and pressure... 

As for where you stand.. well.. I had photogrpahic proof the problem was there before I bought the gecko with the defect.. I asked for links to the sellers photobucket and you could clearly see in some of the pics the deformity on the gecko way before I bought it.. but not in ALL of the pics.. The gecko i bought also has issues with his limbs.. weakness etc.. I was offered a partial refund which since a full refund was not offered I accepted..

I wanted a full refund and was told this was cruel of me which seemed at the least ridiculous.. so be prepared to come up against all sorts of accusations and excuses from the seller and potentially their friends

I think with a vet visit and further discussion you should be enitled to some form of monetary refund.. how you obtain this and whether this is satisfactory to you i dont know.. I know I still feel upset and annoyed at the fact no full refund was offered to me..
My gecko..(bought from the person you know) was not fit for purpose of breeding so has become an expensive rescue .. much like what yours seems to have turned out to be.. potnetially with continual vet bills and special care needs..its sad but it happens..

I hope you find some resolution and this issue has now allowed you to become more understanding of where I was coming from a while back, certainly it will help you to beome a fairer and more understanding keeper. I feel strongly if a seller has missed a defect which can be proven to have been there before purchase they are 100% liable if not legally then morally to fully refund. This did not happen with me.. as you also know. I for one if I sold a defective animal would not hesitate to refund if the defect had been prior to the sale. I would feel genuinely repsonsible.


I also sincerely hope the vet is able to succesfully treat and rehabilitate this animal.. allbeit it may never be able to be used for your breeding project it could have a decent life with correct care and treatment which I know you will seek..


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

sparkle said:


> its not your fault but now you understand at least what i was trying to tell you months ago when I had the same issue and you said the problem was MY fault for not checking the animal over... .. its the zen slap.. we dont understand where a person is coming from till it happens to us..
> 
> As you also know the gecko I bought has an eye deformity ( something i did not know about).. very obvious to the naked eye and will require regular check ups to check for enlargement and pressure...
> 
> ...


Sparkle i can fully see where you are coming from now honestly i can, well i will be keeping you all upto date about this.

I will say this also This may not be the fault of the seller directly it can be various things such as stress etc. Even if the seller continues to go off on one quoting every single thing i say and every single thread i have commented on in the past about it i will pay for the vets and will nurse her back to health.

There will be some before and after pictures posted here later on this evening.


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

Here is her home, as you can see i have pointed out the mealworm dish, moist hide and calcium dish aswell as you being able to see various other hides etc.

Her temps are around 88F so i cant see how this is a problem as the seller has just told me that it is because i am keeping her in too dry conditions.

And has also just said that they will get very angry before long, is that a threat?


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

Excuse the poor pics but this is what her eyes now look like, as you can see one is open and the other is shut.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Am I missing something? I take it you are PMing the seller, if that is the case, perhaps this tread isn't needed.

Just to re-iterate what I said earlier, there is a distinct possibility that the conditions in her new environment along with the stress of the move have lead to her eyes weeping. I would suspect that this cannot be contested, as they were fine by your own admission (bar the deformity) when you received her.

Again I'm still not at all sure whether you knew she had deformed eye lids or not before you purchased her, if so then unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much come back. On that note however, If it is her in the tank, then I would suggest she is probably large enough for the seller to have seen it before hand.

Andy


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

Another fellow forumite has explained to me that a deformed eye lid can cause issues later on because the protection barrier is weakened.

That said i posted pictures to prove that her conditions are very good and she has all the requirements she needs even the right temps.

This is also not a name and shame as i havent once given the details of the persons to anyone else, the thread is here because of the abuse we are getting via pm along with the cinicism and quoting and the smart alec attitude.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Am I missing something? I take it you are PMing the seller, if that is the case, perhaps this tread isn't needed.
> 
> Just to re-iterate what I said earlier, there is a distinct possibility that the conditions in her new environment along with the stress of the move have lead to her eyes weeping. I would suspect that this cannot be contested, as they were fine by your own admission (bar the deformity) when you received her.
> 
> ...





messengermatt said:


> Another fellow forumite has explained to me that a deformed eye lid can cause issues later on because the protection barrier is weakened.
> 
> That said i posted pictures to prove that her conditions are very good and she has all the requirements she needs even the right temps.



Again, you didn't really respond to any of my points. But just because your setup seems fine, does not mean that something within it has not caused the irritation to her eyes.

Andy


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

Wouldnt it cause the same problem to all the others as they have the same setups then?

I am seeing your points quite clearly and havent doubted them, you may be right but either way i havent asked the seller for help with vets fees or anything all i did is tell them there was a problem to then be treated like a child so to speak.

I have kept leo's long enough to know what the differnece between well and unwell is, also the difference between good conditions and bad ones.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

messengermatt said:


> Wouldnt it cause the same problem to all the others as they have the same setups then?
> 
> I am seeing your points quite clearly and havent doubted them, you may be right but either way i havent asked the seller for help with vets fees or anything all i did is tell them there was a problem to then be treated like a child so to speak.
> 
> I have kept leo's long enough to know what the differnece between well and unwell is, also the difference between good conditions and bad ones.


I think you may be misunderstand my intentions. I don't know who the seller is, or anything further to the information you have given, but I have endeavored to give an unbiased assessment of the fact presented. I honestly don't think you have given enough information to portion blame on either party, if blame could even be suggested.

In response to your first point. No there is no reason to think that the "same" setups would invoke similar responses in other geckos. Sufficed to say individuals vary in their tolerance to various components, and potentially being predisposed to eye difficulties may play a role. This does not make the fault either yours OR the sellers.

Whilst I appreciate you are upset with the whole situation, and you are entitle to be. I suspect the seller is also a little upset. Personally I would prefer to sort it out privately if this had happened to me rather than coming on the forum and saying you will name and shame. You still haven't said if you knew the individual had deformed eye lids before you purchased it. As far as I can see (until you say different) is that it came and seemed OK. Within the first 6-8 hours it developed a problem with weeping eyes. This suggests an irritation has occurred after arrival. This is not a question about your husbandry, but merely a fact that something has irritated its eyes. The vet will tell you if it is an infection or not, either way he cannot give an accurate time of infection.

Your final point, again I cannot dispute this fact. It has an issue, and you have done the right thing seeing the vet, but that doesn't suggest either party are to blame.

Andy


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

GlasgowGecko said:


> I think you may be misunderstand my intentions. I don't know who the seller is, or anything further to the information you have given, but I have endeavored to give an unbiased assessment of the fact presented. I honestly don't think you have given enough information to portion blame on either party, if blame could even be suggested.
> 
> In response to your first point. No there is no reason to think that the "same" setups would invoke similar responses in other geckos. Sufficed to say individuals vary in their tolerance to various components, and potentially being predisposed to eye difficulties may play a role. This does not make the fault either yours OR the sellers.
> 
> ...


 

I do agree with what you have said, yes it was sold to us as having a deformed eyelid that had no bearing on the geckos health or abilities.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

messengermatt said:


> I do agree with what you have said, yes it was sold to us as having a deformed eyelid that had no bearing on the geckos health or abilities.


Ok, so I miss the real issue here then. It has developed an issue of unknown severity some time after being transported. My thinking is it will be very difficult if not impossible to suggest that this was an ongoing issue before it arrived.

Out of interest, was it brought by currier or did you collect it?

Andy


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Ok, so I miss the real issue here then. It has developed an issue of unknown severity some time after being transported. My thinking is it will be very difficult if not impossible to suggest that this was an ongoing issue before it arrived.
> 
> Out of interest, was it brought by currier or did you collect it?
> 
> Andy


Collected although didnt really get chance to inspect as it was a public car park.

It's true though the pics we saw from them were satisfactory, i am beginning to think that maybe its something that has now be aggrevated.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

messengermatt said:


> Collected although didnt really get chance to inspect as it was a public car park.
> 
> It's true though the pics we saw from them were satisfactory, i am beginning to think that maybe its something that has now be aggrevated.


I would have to agree with this. The reason being, if the seller had been having the same problem then I'm sure they would have sought treatment, or you would have seen the symptoms.

When looking for potential causes for a problem like this the list is almost endless, things like disinfectant, air freshener, even dust could cause it. It really is impossible to say for sure. The best way to proceed for the animal is obviously to see the vet and follow his suggestions. From then on monitor the animal closely and see what, if anything triggers this type of response. As you know, no two animals are the same, or will respond identically to the same stimuli. It isn't about having the perfect general setup, but about having the right setup for each animal.

As I say, I do sympathize with you. But also with the seller, as my trusting nature tells me that it probably never happened when it was with them.

Andy


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## Josh-sama (Sep 26, 2008)

Messenger, it's obvious here you are just posting to try and proove your own points and refuse to accept any part of the blame. As stated, stress can trigger said weeping eyes and there might be faults in your tank. Maybe it's too big for the animal? It feels unsafe. The eye weeping probably did not occur with the seller due to lack of stress in it's enviroment.

You say, "if there's something wrong, why don't all my lizards have the problem?" I think you've forgotten the lizards are individual as well. They're not all the same. They have preferences, their own conscience.

This thread has just seemed to be to back up your points so you can blame it all on the seller, when infact the problem might be your set up. 

In all fairness, if the deformity was not listed as sold, and you couldn't spot it when you picked it up there's a good chance the seller didn't see it either. So stop attempting to pin everything to the seller, when it could be your fault too.


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

Josh-sama said:


> Messenger, it's obvious here you are just posting to try and proove your own points and refuse to accept any part of the blame. As stated, stress can trigger said weeping eyes and there might be faults in your tank. Maybe it's too big for the animal? It feels unsafe. The eye weeping probably did not occur with the seller due to lack of stress in it's enviroment.
> 
> You say, "if there's something wrong, why don't all my lizards have the problem?" I think you've forgotten the lizards are individual as well. They're not all the same. They have preferences, their own conscience.
> 
> ...


Ignorance in people is often amusing isnt it.

I have said already that i am not trying to blame the seller i said that i informed them of the problem and they bit my head off nothing else.

I have also said when responding to Glasgow Gecko that i may also be at fault and yes i have been warned about the possibility of friends/followers backing them up.


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## queenquack (Apr 6, 2009)

if this is a common issue, take anything you buy strait to the vets with out delay for a health check, u can hardly b blaimed for in propper care if it is ill a day or 2 after arrival! 
as a seller protect ur selfs by getting it checked over before exchange.


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> With this in mind it is very possible that a combination of stress and environmental conditions at your place (either out of, or within your control) triggered the weeping response which may genuinely not have happened before. I will stress that I am only suggesting it is possible, although it to me it seems quite likely. Again though we still need more information on the gecko, and as such this is probably not the responsibility of the seller.


this was my thoughts too ~ different ambient temps, the shock/stress of new housing, travel conditions, different substrates etc can all trigger problems not necessarily known before or with known deformities/problems.



> They will NOT be able to tell you how long it has had the infection.


I agree 



messengermatt said:


> This is also not a name and shame *as i havent once given the details of the persons to anyone else*,


excuse me but I would seriously suggest that you rephrase that statement Matt as I know that you have already given the seller details/names out and did so barely an hour after starting this thread ~ which along with the fact that the seller has yet to put forward their side is part of the reason why I for one didn't reply to the pm that you sent to me ~ I like to have all the facts first .....
getting upset I can understand but misplacing the truth as you have in the above statement is something I don't.


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

I may have pm'd few people to ask for their views but as stated i havent named and shamed on this thread so i wasnt telling a lie at all i just didnt specify where.

I will be asking a mod to remove this thread shortly anyway as the seller is now being helpful in assisting a resolve


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

messengermatt said:


> I may have pm'd few people to ask for their views but as stated i havent named and shamed on this thread so i wasnt telling a lie at all.


Matt I'm afraid that's splitting hairs and you know it ~ you said just now quite plainly that you hadn't *once* given out the names of the sellers or to quote you word for word "*as i havent once given the details of the persons to anyone else" *when infact you had /have already given out the details to a number of people....thread or pm ~ you'd already done it and I'm sorry but I'm not only old I'm old-fashioned that way as well.


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