# What would you ban ?



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

If you could ban a reptile or species (including subspecies) from being kept in captivity ... which one would it be and why ?


----------



## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

cornsnakes, just to p*ss everyone off:lol2:


----------



## CaseyM (Nov 8, 2006)

Cornsnakes here too :Na_Na_Na_Na: :lol2:


Edit - Been moaned at to say why so id ban them because theyre becoming a throw away pet and to be honest i just plain dont like them.


----------



## poshweiller (Nov 17, 2006)

iguanas,there are too many in rescues due to their size and nature.not fair!


----------



## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Asian water monitors. I think this is perhaps the hardest lizard for people to comprehend the sheer size, energy and strength, coupled with what is usually not a "friendly" personality means I think these lizards are completely unsuitable to be kept as pets, and should strictly be display in licensed collections ie. zoos.

If I could go crazy I can think of a dozen other species I would be quite happy to see out of the pet trade... but would rather them be licensed than banned altogether.


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Mine would be adult reticulated pythons. I just think they are too big to be housed in captivity.


----------



## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

I'd actually go with Iguanas aswell, It would be logical to ban the keeping of Burmese due to the amount of impulse buys and later rescues that take place, but alot of Burmese are kept very well and given everything they need. I do feel there should be some sort of legislation preventing the sale of Burms etc. to under 18's or something.


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

None, i believe in freedom - It should be taken away from those who show poor husbandry. If someone takes on something they cant look after then they should be punished.

Taking pets out of the trade only punishes those who can give good homes to them, heavy fines and a ban on keeping any pets should be a decent ditterent.


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Iguanas here too - although not necessarily ban them I would love t see them placed on the DWa or similar though due ot thier sheer size as adults and the amount of numptys who buy them without a 2nd thought on how they are going to house a 5 foot plus lizard int he future!!


----------



## markhill (Sep 22, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> None, i believe in freedom - It should be taken away from those who show poor husbandry. If someone takes on something they cant look after then they should be punished.
> 
> Taking pets out of the trade only punishes those who can give good homes to them, heavy fines and a ban on keeping any pets should be a decent ditterent.


i agree with this.
Individual reps shouldnt be banned, people who cant/wont look after them should be banned.


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

I'd personally ban retics, green anacondas, rocks, burms and scrubs


----------



## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> I'd personally ban retics, green anacondas, rocks, burms and scrubs


why though? there must be responsible keepers around who provide well for their large boids:smile:


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

SiUK said:


> why though? there must be responsible keepers around who provide well for their large boids:smile:


 
Oh i dont doubt the responsible keepers, but ive met way too many who keep because they are big snakes, the whole penis extension thing:lol2:


maybe licencing would be better than an all out ban, i personally know of someone who keeps all 5(and more than one of each) just because he likes to show off how brave he thinks he is, to**er:lol2:


----------



## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

I wouldn't ban the keeping of ANY reptile. I'd just like to see more shop owners and breeders be more cautious about whom they sell what too.

but if you really want me to get involved in this discussion.....

it'd be any species that is of 'bellend' or as everyone else calls it 'colour morph' appearance. honestly, why would you pay more for something with say... reduced pattern? if its got a reduced pattern.... i would personally want a reduced price.

however naturally occuring morphs are fine lol.


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

why the anti-morph sentiments on this thread?


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> why the anti-morph sentiments on this thread?


A lot of folk have a moral objection to colour morphs because it usually means its mum and dad are also its brother and sister to start with.

It doesnt bother me one bit though because my sisters are hot :lol2:


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Luton Reptile Rescue said:


> it'd be any species that is of 'bellend' or as everyone else calls it 'colour morph' appearance. honestly, why would you pay more for something with say... reduced pattern? if its got a reduced pattern.... i would personally want a reduced price.
> 
> however naturally occuring morphs are fine lol.


So all of the morphs currently in captivity are fine - but we'd best not genetically engineer anything?

All of 'em were originally found in WC animals.... however, people have combined them with other WC found morphs to produce things like Glacier Stripe corns and Albino Spider Pied Royals.

Though I'm a "punish the deed, not the breed" person myself, if I were going to pick one SINGLE species to ban, it would be green iguanas. People get 'em when they're adorable little green babies and just don't realise they turn into giant green monsters unless you do a LOT of work keeping 'em nice... and sometimes that doesn't work.

I do think it would be nice if the hobby as a whole came up with a series of voluntary and hobby-industry regulated 'competency exams'. These exams would be administered by the hobby - created by keepers for potential keepers. The idea being that if you passed the relevant exam ("Large herbivorous lizards" or "Giant Constrictors" for example) then participating pet shops would let you purchase the animals - but if you didn't have the exam certificate/card then a reputable shop wouldn't sell you the animal. However, the hobby would need to have the leverage to stop traders who were willing to sell to people without the relevant competencies.


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> A lot of folk have a moral objection to colour morphs because it usually means its mum and dad are also its brother and sister to start with.
> 
> It doesnt bother me one bit though because my sisters are hot :lol2:


 
:lol2: we dont wanna go there:lol2:

But do these people not realise similar things happen with normal carpets, royals, common boas, kings, milks and every other snake out there?


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Id ban crickets they do my head in.


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

People who wanna ban retics::cussing::rant2::biteme:

There are many responsible big boid keepers with the room and knowledge to keep these animals well. For the most part the people who get a big snake as a "penis extension" as previously mentioned here go out and get a burm.

I believe that if people have the knowledge and experience and room/money then nothing should be banned. There are only bad keepers not bad animals. I do believe some of them should be licensed though (big snakes and lizards).


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> if I were going to pick one SINGLE species to ban, it would be green iguanas. People get 'em when they're adorable little green babies and just don't realise they turn into giant green monsters
> .


Im glad theres less of a market out there than there used to be, i remember when iggys were out there in hundreds in every reptile and garden centre, thank god those days seem to be over(i hope)


----------



## candoia aspera (Mar 5, 2007)

retics should be banned - too big.


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

bci said:


> retics should be banned - too big.


But not Green Anacondas? Retics might be a little longer but GA's are bigger.


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

bci said:


> retics should be banned - too big.


Most of them are roughly burm sized. Should we ban burms also? What about the other rock pythons? Anacondas? Every snake with the ability to kill their owner? That'd include boas too.


----------



## candoia aspera (Mar 5, 2007)

WeThePeople said:


> But not Green Anacondas? Retics might be a little longer but GA's are bigger.


 
he only said one - not two lol


----------



## candoia aspera (Mar 5, 2007)

Fangio said:


> Most of them are roughly burm sized. Should we ban burms also? What about the other rock pythons? Anacondas? Every snake with the ability to kill their owner? That'd include boas too.


bugger - well a re think is needed - all the bad ones are already gone though


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

just take out the big 5


----------



## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

WeThePeople said:


> a ban on keeping any pets should be a decent ditterent.





markhill said:


> i agree with this.
> Individual reps shouldnt be banned, people who cant/wont look after them should be banned.


I think so long as you *can* keep it *and* give it *everything* it needs then there is no reason to not have whatever animal you wish.

Another question to think about though is a few people have suggested banning poor owners from keeping pets. How are you going to police this when you can walk into any pet shop and buy an animal?

Would you be looking at giving all pet owners a license and requiring them to produce it to buy an animal? Something similar to a DWA you have to pay for but to keep ANY animal? Just wondering is all


----------



## candoia aspera (Mar 5, 2007)

Tops said:


> I think so long as you *can* keep it *and* give it *everything* it needs then there is no reason to not have whatever animal you wish.
> 
> Another question to think about though is a few people have suggested banning poor owners from keeping pets. How are you going to police this when you can walk into any pet shop and buy an animal?
> 
> Would you be looking at giving all pet owners a license and requiring them to produce it to buy an animal? Something similar to a DWA you have to pay for but to keep ANY animal? Just wondering is all


 
amen : victory:


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Tops said:


> I think so long as you *can* keep it *and* give it *everything* it needs then there is no reason to not have whatever animal you wish.
> 
> Another question to think about though is a few people have suggested banning poor owners from keeping pets. How are you going to police this when you can walk into any pet shop and buy an animal?
> 
> Would you be looking at giving all pet owners a license and requiring them to produce it to buy an animal? Something similar to a DWA you have to pay for but to keep ANY animal? Just wondering is all


 
well it would help stop the ones who buy their first reptile on the spur of the moment, if they got to go away and apply for a licence, whether it would stop the numptys in the long term is another thing though


----------



## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> well it would help stop the ones who buy their first reptile on the spur of the moment, if they got to go away and apply for a licence, whether it would stop the numptys in the long term is another thing though


I agree. A determined numpty is a dangerous thing. Plenty of people out there will disregard rules and regulations in favour of a quick buck and there are always people who will be willing to help you out. I dont think there will ever be a way to enforce these regs. How many illegal animals are behind closed doors right this moment?
I have no idea what pets my neighbours keep behind the doors. Could well be a house full of alligators for all i know.


----------



## LeeH (Jan 26, 2005)

id ban genetic faults..bug eyes for example or reduced scales..i know they can't be helped but terming it with a name and theres people still breeding bug eyed leucistic rats and other traits that harm the animal
on the single speices i think anything can be kept well with the right state of mind and space and awareness of what it is and the size..just a few makes the speices look bad by not researching their needs but saying that its personal preference ain't it


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Tops said:


> I agree. A determined numpty is a dangerous thing. Plenty of people out there will disregard rules and regulations in favour of a quick buck and there are always people who will be willing to help you out. I dont think there will ever be a way to enforce these regs. How many illegal animals are behind closed doors right this moment?
> I have no idea what pets my neighbours keep behind the doors. Could well be a house full of alligators for all i know.


well thats it, you'd never know




rankindude2 said:


> id ban genetic faults..bug eyes for example or reduced scales..i know they can't be helped but terming it with a name and theres people still breeding bug eyed leucistic rats and other traits that harm the animal


 
yeah bug eyed and the like should be stopped, but do some breeders care


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Tops said:


> I think so long as you *can* keep it *and* give it *everything* it needs then there is no reason to not have whatever animal you wish.
> 
> Another question to think about though is a few people have suggested banning poor owners from keeping pets. How are you going to police this when you can walk into any pet shop and buy an animal?
> 
> Would you be looking at giving all pet owners a license and requiring them to produce it to buy an animal? Something similar to a DWA you have to pay for but to keep ANY animal? Just wondering is all


Havent really give it much thought but id imagine if your prosecuted and banned from keeping pets and your cought again then the punishment is worse. If your in breech of a court order thats a far worse offence in the eyes of the law than keeping pets your not allowed too. Just a thought really, not something i can see happening, licensing wouldnt work though imo it would do more than harm. Less people would be able to keep reptiles which would mean less shops and less things available.

As pointed out though, if you have enough wonga you can get anything. I know of one shop near me that will sell you a DWA animal without seeing your license - they have even offered me hot snakes and caimans.

There will always be a black market but its gunna be a lot smaller with harsher penalties.


----------



## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I have seen no eyed turtles for sale in US mags and online thats a genetic fault I take it thats bred specifically?? and thats cruel


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

SiUK said:


> I have seen no eyed turtles for sale in US mags and online thats a genetic fault I take it thats bred specifically?? and thats cruel


yeah thats something else, if it takes away from the animals natural behaviour, causes pain, suffering on is a disability then thats just not right


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

bci said:


> bugger - well a re think is needed - all the bad ones are already gone though


It seems no-one's mentioned afrocs yet!:lol2: Or venomous or indeed crocs


----------



## Andy b 1 (May 14, 2007)

would ban any snake longer than 8 foot wayyy too big

iggies are alright as long as they have a big enough enclosure

:help:


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Andy b 1 said:


> would ban any snake longer than 8 foot wayyy too big
> 
> iggies are alright as long as they have a big enough enclosure
> 
> :help:


But snakes are not? Have you seen the damage an adult iggy can do to a human?


----------



## Andy b 1 (May 14, 2007)

WeThePeople said:


> But snakes are not? Have you seen the damage an adult iggy can do to a human?


and moniters


----------



## tarantulabarn (Apr 21, 2005)

i would not ban but licence the big sulcata torts snakes and igys, just to keep a bit of control over their upkeep purely cos of the size they get to i get so many igys, burms and retics in that "the lodger left behind"


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

WeThePeople said:


> But snakes are not? Have you seen the damage an adult iggy can do to a human?


Friend of mine had to go to hospital for stitches on a couple of occasions due to adult male iggy teeth.


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Fangio said:


> Friend of mine had to go to hospital for stitches on a couple of occasions due to adult male iggy teeth.


Yeah lizard bites are far more common than large snake injuries but its us big snake owners that always have the finger pointed at us.

Ive got 6 burms, had 2 anacondas and a brief encounter with a retic - given a choice id sooner have one of them go postal on me than a large lizard.


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

WeThePeople said:


> Yeah lizard bites are far more common than large snake injuries but its us big snake owners that always have the finger pointed at us.
> 
> Ive got 6 burms, had 2 anacondas and a brief encounter with a retic - given a choice id sooner have one of them go postal on me than a large lizard.


Me too, give me an angry retic over an angry nile monitor any day.

My friend's iggy bit him in the arm and then decided to roll over while still attached.....made a bit of a mess.


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

theres one thing that hasn't been mentioned that seriously needs either banning or licencing


those bl**dy centipedes, scare the bejesus out of me:lol2:


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> theres one thing that hasn't been mentioned that seriously needs either banning or licencing
> 
> 
> those bl**dy centipedes, scare the bejesus out of me:lol2:


 

oooooooo I'm with you on that one. They def. need to be on DWA IMO. They really freak me out too!


----------



## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

i'd ban the knob head penis extension type idiots too. and clueless pet shops. big reps are ok when they're looked after properly, its the tits who don't that annoy me.
how many chinese water dragons have you seen in 'reptile collections open to the public' and crappy pet shops with no nose left due to rubbing? all it takes is a few simple steps to prevent it but the stupid :censor: are too clueless.

...and corn snakes should come with a government health warning - caution: these snakes are highly addictive, and can do serious damage to your wallet


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

eeji said:


> ...and corn snakes should come with a government health warning - caution: these snakes are highly addictive, and can do serious damage to your wallet


amen to that one:lol2:


----------



## bribrian (Jan 12, 2006)

Terrapins & the sh!tty little plastic island tanks that pet shops sell to put them in...:bash::bash::bash:


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

bribrian said:


> Terrapins & the sh!tty little plastic island tanks that pet shops sell to put them in...:bash::bash::bash:


 
ooh on that subject alligator snappers


----------



## tom1400 (Jan 21, 2007)

caimans, anacondas, reticulated pythons, iguanas

Igauans should only be sold to people who know how to care for them. As someone else said there is far too many in rescues now as people just don't know how big they grow.


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

Too many retic haters here for my liking


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Fangio said:


> Too many retic haters here for my liking


Yeah only retics too no mention of rock pythons - just as big but far more agressive, it seems to be people with no experience of them hating them.


----------



## tom1400 (Jan 21, 2007)

nothing against you fangio as you know what your doing with your retic. It's just you get alot of people that go out there and buy a big snake, lizard for the fun of it to look cool. And when it gets too big they can't look after it anymore and it goes to rescues.


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

WeThePeople said:


> Yeah only retics too no mention of rock pythons - just as big but far more agressive, it seems to be people with no experience of them hating them.


That's always the way though. Retics ARE rock pythons BTW (reticulated rock python) I know you mean African rock pythons though:Na_Na_Na_Na:

To be fair they do hold the highest death toll of their keepers of any pet snake. When you see how the deaths occur though usually it involves americans letting them free-roam the house as if it's a dog/cat and stupid mistakes with food.....like getting the food out when the snake is out on the floor in front of them.

I would like to see some kind of large boid keeper course out there as a requirement for keeping them.


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

tom1400 said:


> nothing against you fangio as you know what your doing with your retic. It's just you get alot of people that go out there and buy a big snake, lizard for the fun of it to look cool. And when it gets too big they can't look after it anymore and it goes to rescues.


Yeah I know mate. I was on the committee of a local reptile club years back and we were constantly inundated with burm rescues, no retics though. I think the numpties generally head for burms as a rule because of their placid nature and more easy availability.


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

no mention of scrubs yet:no1:


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> no mention of scrubs yet:no1:


You did at the top of page 2:Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Id ban men owning pink snakes, its just not butch :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

:lol2: purple's ok though right?


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Fangio said:


> You did at the top of page 2:Na_Na_Na_Na:


:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Fangio said:


> :lol2: purple's ok though right?


No  Id also ban anything with a camp name, like candycane and creamsicle.

Real men should own real snakes, if it cant do you some serious damage then you shouldnt own it.


----------



## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

I woudln't ban anything, i would however agree to sensible licensing/restrictions on larger species (not just snakes, mean lizards like iggies and large monitors, sulcatas and snappers etc too)

Anyhting that *will* require a certain level of care/ownership should be licenced in some way.

Banning things isn't the way forward IMO, slippery slope and all that. you should be "banned" from keeping anyhting you cannot provide adequate care for. And when it's something that will require anyhting out of the ordinary (like a 9 foot viv etc) then someone should do something to make surew it has a good chance of being met.

Mason


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

WeThePeople said:


> No  Id also ban anything with a camp name, like candycane and creamsicle.
> 
> Real men should own real snakes, if it cant do you some serious damage then you shouldnt own it.


*sells purple retic and buys an afrock*:lol2:

I'm butch now!

*struts*


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Fangio said:


> *sells purple retic and buys an afrock*:lol2:
> 
> I'm butch now!
> 
> *struts*


Is it purple or lavander? Do they call it purple because lavander sounds homoghey?


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

WeThePeople said:


> Is it purple or lavander? Do they call it purple because lavander sounds homoghey?


nope mine's purple. Lavender is the girl's version:lol2: (they are different morphs)

here's mine:
Flickr: Search

he looks kinda grey/yellow there to me, but really he's purple. They were taken when I first got them. When he shed all the crustiness around the nostrils went.


----------



## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> Is it purple or lavander? Do they call it purple because lavander sounds homoghey?


No, with retics they are distinctly different.

Mason


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Got any better pics? I always thought they where a bit of a myth tbh, Matthew Todd had some Bob Clark ones but they didnt even look Lavander let alone purple to me, they where young though.


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

WeThePeople said:


> Got any better pics? I always thought they where a bit of a myth tbh, Matthew Todd had some Bob Clark ones but they didnt even look Lavander let alone purple to me, they where young though.


nah I've got some worse pics though if that's any good:lol2:
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snake-pictures/39360-purple-retic-pics-pic-heavy.html










you can properly see the purple in that one. [/hijack]


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Thems are some cool pictures, for Snakeseller Mike to say you have a nice retic its a big compliment mate, ive seen some of his when i bought a normal off him and he has some very nice ones. He has a tiger that looks like its radioactive, its coloration is amazing, its as if it glows : victory: How much does a purple go for then?


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

iggys


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

WeThePeople said:


> Thems are some cool pictures, for Snakeseller Mike to say you have a nice retic its a big compliment mate, ive seen some of his when i bought a normal off him and he has some very nice ones. He has a tiger that looks like its radioactive, its coloration is amazing, its as if it glows : victory: How much does a purple go for then?


I know from the pics Mike's collection looks amazing. He helped me along the way onto keeping them along with a few others here. I'm glad I took that step after 12 years of wanting them.

I got mine for £1200 from a shop. Usually they go for around £1.5k over here, I have seen a London breeder advertise them at £1700!!!. Bob Clark is selling them for £900 at the moment though. Like all morphs prices drop year after year.


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

I'd ban hamsters if I had my way. No really they are pure concentrated evil.:lol2:

I still say banning of keeping anything shouldn't be allowed, but stricter licensing should be brought in and enforced.


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

cant believe you guys would ban green iggys.... 

would this go for those already in collections being looked after?
[applies to all species]

they are already virtually unbred in captivity anyway now.

I wouldnt ban anyhting, i think its a terrible thing to think of doing personally lol


----------



## CBR1100XX (Feb 19, 2006)

Burms/Retics/Iguanas, not ban them but make them licensed. Maybe would stop so many being rehomed when they get too big. 

Then again maybe have all rep keepers licensed make sure everyones set ups are up to scratch:smile: would maybe stop impulse buying or buying because its so cheap. A lot of reptiles die through owners ignorance and inadequate set ups. sometimes down to poor advice given by shops etc but also down to the fact they don't really need to research to buy. 

Ask yourself how easy it is to buy a Burm that could reach 20ft, so easy I could order one to be delivered to my door on the net, without no questions apart from credit card and address.


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

well i see monitor lizards being the next green iggy, its just that ppl started keeping them like 20-30 years ago bug time and huge in the early 90's that there are a lot in rescue centres.
in ten years time it will be different ,all the old iggys will be dead.. and there wont be anymore as they have been branded unsuitable as pets... instead the rescue centres will be filled with monitors and ...er..tokay geckos 
its all about the ppl and education.

I think ppl should have to have a license to keep pets anyway, as i do think they should to drink, have sex and use the internet...

you can get a lot mor epotentailly dangerous things than a big snake sent to your door nowadays, internet, phone or letter with postal order lol


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

I would question how a license makes someone a better herp keeper. After all it's just a piece of paper with a name on. DWA license for example is easily aquired.

If you had to take courses to get it rather than just fill out a form then it'd be a different story.


----------



## asm1006 (May 5, 2007)

personally I don't see the point in having venomous snakes in captivity, but thats a personal thing:smile: but with well educated owners I have no probs with others having them:smile:
Some of the HUGE snakes are often kept-sadly so in small enclosures and that gets me. But banning?
I think personally that keeping species such as (Ihave no idea what they are called)those 'small' crocs is just silly in a big viv. Got to be cruel. 
Its not so much banning, but ensuring owners are educated and are able to keep their reptiles in the correct conditions are essential. Anyone can get almost anything and its scary if u think what u can get over the interent. Some kind of regulating body run perhaps by experienced herptologists might hnelp?


----------



## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

DeanThorpe said:


> well i see monitor lizards being the next green iggy, its just that ppl started keeping them like 20-30 years ago bug time and huge in the early 90's that there are a lot in rescue centres.
> in ten years time it will be different ,all the old iggys will be dead.. and there wont be anymore as they have been branded unsuitable as pets... instead the rescue centres will be filled with monitors and ...er..tokay geckos
> its all about the ppl and education.
> 
> ...


I don't think the day of the ig is over. Thousands of still imported into the country as CF or WC babies. Most pet shops I know in the area sell them as babies for as little as £25-40. They are on the wholesalers lists right now, and will continue to be year after year. People will continue to buy them without research... I have at least 3-4 people in a month in my shop saying they want an iguana. I have never sold one, and I never will... so I turn them away...

But there are still many youngsters flooding the country and the problem with igs will only continue.. I can't see there being any less in 10 years to be honest.


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Fangio said:


> People who wanna ban retics::cussing::rant2::biteme:
> 
> There are many responsible big boid keepers with the room and knowledge to keep these animals well.


There are many irresponsible ones too who neither have the room or knowledge.


----------



## yellow_rat_gal (Mar 24, 2007)

A while back I phoned up a rescue nearby just to see whether they were looking for volunteers, they said they get some things up our way and would we take in rescues for a while if we could, which I said yes to and left our phone number.

A few days ago a guy called up, and asked owen if we'd BUY an adult iggy off him for £80, and when the guy told owen what was wrong with the iggy (mouth rot, metabolic bone disease and something else too) Owen rightly replied, you're taking the effing piss if you think we'll pay for something that will require numerous vet treatments and a LOT of time and attention - the bloke hung up then.

I don't think we were in the wrong saying we wouldn't pay, we'd spend more than that in vets bills, and if we gave the guy £80 that would be £80 less we'd have to spend on the iggy in treatment. I don't know apart from what they guy said on the phone the state of the iggy, but if it's as bad as he described to Owen we'd be looking at 2 years to get it well again...


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

WeThePeople said:


> None, i believe in freedom - It should be taken away from those who show poor husbandry. If someone takes on something they cant look after then they should be punished.


Interesting.... You believe in freedom but also believe in punishment for those who do not follow your ideas ?


----------



## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Fangio said:


> To be fair they do hold the highest death toll of their keepers of any pet snake.


 
That's burms actually :Na_Na_Na_Na:

EDIT:
As for what i'd ban, nothing. No reptile can't be kept in captivity.
What i would ban is ignorant keepers


----------



## tazzyasb (May 4, 2005)

eeji said:


> ...and corn snakes should come with a government health warning - caution: these snakes are highly addictive, and can do serious damage to your wallet


 
: victory: tell me about it


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

ratboy said:


> Interesting.... You believe in freedom but also believe in punishment for those who do not follow your ideas ?


Not my ideas if i dont make the rules is it?

A lot of people are suggesting licensing, how would this work without killing the hobby and how will it be run? I cant see it doing either.

Do we test peoples knowlege? Whats to stop me buying "The reptile test for dummies" the night before then walking in and getting 100% on the test? - does this make me a good keeper?

Do we look at how im housing my reptiles, does having the correct housing equiptment mean im a good keeper?

How many bad pet shops do you know with a pet shop license? - Is licensing working?

Car licensing doesnt work to improve driving standards, as the test has got harder over the years there have been more accidents amoung new drivers.


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Thought of a way it could be "policed" not that i want it to be, just interested in the topic.

People can only buy and keep reptiles if they are a member of a certain society or club. With your annual subscription comes liability insurance (incase your critter bites someone or gives some a disease :lol2 and you can only buy reptiles when your produce your insurance 'tifficut'. If people think your a bad keeper then they report you to the club/society and if your investigated and found to be a bad keeper then you get kicked out of the club losing your liability insurance.

Not fool proof because whether someone is a good or bad keeper is to a certain degree open to interpretation and there is always going to be a black market, it could also put a lot of casual owners off but it could also bring owners together.

People like the modely flyers association and the amateur rocketers associations all work on a similar principle, in that you can only fly on licensed fields and you can only access those if you have your insurance via the club.


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

ratboy said:


> Interesting.... You believe in freedom but also believe in punishment for those who do not follow your ideas ?


yeh but i think the key bit was "something you cant look after"
the reptile mayeb should have freedom too.. atleast the right to be wel cared for.


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Athravan said:


> I don't think the day of the ig is over. Thousands of still imported into the country as CF or WC babies. Most pet shops I know in the area sell them as babies for as little as £25-40. They are on the wholesalers lists right now, and will continue to be year after year. People will continue to buy them without research... I have at least 3-4 people in a month in my shop saying they want an iguana. I have never sold one, and I never will... so I turn them away...
> 
> But there are still many youngsters flooding the country and the problem with igs will only continue.. I can't see there being any less in 10 years to be honest.


do you also not see an equal amount of monitors being in need of rehoming?
ah ok well i aint having the easiest tiem seeing them about, be it in person or on stocklists.
maybe the idea would be to stop importing them and keep the numbers down to what is actualy bred in captivity by keepers in the uk.

either way... the ppl is th eproblem, not the iguana.
lol well, not that i would as we are a great distance from you but atleast now i know , you also, wouldnt have any baby green iggys at any point to sell me.


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> Thought of a way it could be "policed" not that i want it to be, just interested in the topic.
> 
> People can only buy and keep reptiles if they are a member of a certain society or club. With your annual subscription comes liability insurance and you can only buy reptiles when your produce your insurance 'tifficut'. If people think your a bad keeper then they report you to the club/society and if your investigated and found to be a bad keeper then you get kicked out of the club losing your liability insurance.


Sounds like a good way to do it to me - I wouldn't mind paying more for my IHS subscription if it came with public liability insurance. As long as it was keeper-specific and not individual-animal-specific...


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

so the general concensus is that it would be fine to f*** the responsible owner/breeder in order to catch the numpties?? you should run for government,this sort of thing is their specielity
regards gaz


----------



## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

Why are people's opinions so black and white? Why always one or the other, with no compromise or consideration for the benefits of each one of these methods?

There will ALWAYS be people that are incapable of caring for ALL sorts of species, whether it be a retic, a frog or a Water Dragon. There will ALWAYS be people that slip through the net, and keep them regardless of whether they need a license, and whether they are capable or not. 

Personally.....I have CITES listed animals at home that I have no certification for, they were purchased before the new regs came in. I dont have a receipt, but I DO consider myself to be capable of caring for such animals. The RSPCA or DEFRA or whoever else might consider my opinion to be incorrect, and there might be a million other people out there MORE capable of caring for these animals than myself. The thing is, the laws currently in place on PEOPLE work only to an extent, but they will NEVER solve the problem completely.

By restricting or monitoring the animals that are brought in, then additional security is laid down, most people are either incapable or do not have adequate housing or funding to keep a Green Iguana. There are folk out there who have it down to a tee (Hi Weeminx), but the simple fact is that if people are aware of their needs, they will often choose to ignore them, thus why there are so many igs in rescue centres all over the world......if their importation were prevented, not only are people aware of the reasons why they dont generally make suitable pets (whether they choose to pay attention or ignore this advice is a different matter), but they havent got the option to ignore the facts and buy one anyway, because there are no igs here to be neglected. If that person was still determined to keep that species, then they would have to go to considerable lengths to obtain one. "considerable" lengths might mean paying thousands to have one brought in, or simply find an unlicensed breeder already in the UK, forge paperwork, or just nip over to Hamm and bring it back.

You could license their keeping, but what difference does that make? All rules are made to be broken, fact. I applied for a transportation license to bring some collareds back from Holland, I applied online, stated that I have never been banned from keeping animals, didnt even have to describe let alone prove I had suitable travelling conditions for the 16 hour journey home, and the ferry port officials never even asked to see the license, or the lizards when I declared them. 

See I bet it cost plenty to set up that scheme, yet I could have been carrying rare and endangered animals bought on the black market for millions of pounds, and nobody would have been any the wiser, even with these regs in place. 

Igs might be banned in this country already (lets pretend for a moment), but I might have been carrying them back from Holland that day. Nothing will 100% cover the animals or the people, but I think by reducing numbers of animals imported where the species is unsuitable for captivity, unless part of a programme or licensed display, then it should be left in the wild and not be dangled like a carrot in a pet shop with a sign sayng "Take me home, I'll grow really big, then you can keep me in a cage thats far too small for my needs, let me tail whip you, and dominate your household....... In retaliation you can always mistreat me, I cant do anything about it and unless someone notices then nobody else is going to do anything about it either"

Fair do's people might just go and buy a leopard geck instead, but often those people that cant manage their igs had good intention to begin with, and people that go for something more easily kept in captivity are less at risk of looking for a rehoming centre to take their animal off their hands based on the fact that it is too big and boisterous to manage, and is more of a health hazard and a monster than a pet.

Think of the reduction in numbers of mistreated or rescued animals as a direct result of banning their importation, fair enough, LOADS of keepers love, and are capable of meeting the needs of bigger reps like Igs and retics, BUT I guarantee there will always be those that are the opposite, who have inadequate qualities as owners and who are overlooked by the authorities.


----------



## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

gaz said:


> so the general concensus is that it would be fine to f*** the responsible owner/breeder in order to catch the numpties?? you should run for government,this sort of thing is their specielity
> regards gaz


 

I could also argue that the "responsible" owner is willing enough to put his head in the sand, and protest for the continuation of imports and sales despite the fact that there are more and more of these "numpties" out there, knowing full well that however many regulations and laws are brought in, there will always be someone that is mistreating the species and getting away with it.


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

I think self policing to this extreme is going way too far. Having a questionaire to demonstrate that you know what you are talking about is one thing... but having to join a club or society to be able to buy animals and that club or society will kick you out and make it impossible for you to keep animals if you do not do as they dictate ?

Presumably anyone that came on these forums to ask advice on husbandry would automatically be removed ?


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

ratboy said:


> I think self policing to this extreme is going way too far. Having a questionaire to demonstrate that you know what you are talking about is one thing... but having to join a club or society to be able to buy animals and that club or society will kick you out and make it impossible for you to keep animals if you do not do as they dictate ?
> 
> Presumably anyone that came on these forums to ask advice on husbandry would automatically be removed ?


How can asking for advice on husbandry show anything other than your willing to try and give good care for an animal?

Like i said, its not something id like to see happen at all, im just offering up more discussion and debate.


----------



## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

WeThePeople said:


> How can asking for advice on husbandry show anything other than your willing to try and give good care for an animal?
> 
> Like i said, its not something id like to see happen at all, im just offering up more discussion and debate.


because you have answered a questionnaire and are a member of an elite society of reptile owners. How could you need help or advice? (he is talking about with the measures that people have mentioned - not as it stands now)


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Tops said:


> because you have answered a questionnaire and are a member of an elite society of reptile owners. How could you need help or advice? (he is talking about with the measures that people have mentioned - not as it stands now)


I posted a similar point in the other thread.

Nothing wrong in me being a good keeper of my 6 burms then looking into another species though, just because ive kept mine for many years and they are all happy and healthy it doesnt mean im a bad keeper researching other species does it? Id be a bad keeper if i didnt research a new species i wanted to keep or asking questions regarding my current species as and when they crop up.


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

WeThePeople said:


> How can asking for advice on husbandry show anything other than your willing to try and give good care for an animal?


Because if you are asking advice on an animal you already own, which the vast majority of posts on here are, then by your definition the society would need to go and investigate your husbandry as you are clearly demonstrating that you are lacking in some way.

I think we have two threads merging in to one here


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

ratboy said:


> Because if you are asking advice on an animal you already own, which the vast majority of posts on here are, then by your definition the society would need to go and investigate your husbandry as you are clearly demonstrating that you are lacking in some way.


The idea is that bad keepers are thrown out of the society, not those who dont know everything about an animal but those who are found to be cruel or hugley ignorant. Them that keep large snakes in small cages, them that buy iggys only to dump them when they get too big, people who have been reported and investigated for bad keeping practises - extreme cases.

Like i said though its not my idea nor one id like to see but its one thats worked for other hobbies and imo far better than any exam, test or questionarre.


----------



## CBR1100XX (Feb 19, 2006)

ratboy said:


> If you could ban a reptile or species (including subspecies) from being kept in captivity ... which one would it be and why ?


Back to the original question then Please as quoted above.:smile:


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

how about banning people who call for bans??


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

sorry not being funny lol, atall.. but why arent threads alowed to adapt and change over the period of ten pages as a disscussion progresses?


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

gan1 said:


> I could also argue that the "responsible" owner is willing enough to put his head in the sand, and protest for the continuation of imports and sales despite the fact that there are more and more of these "numpties" out there, knowing full well that however many regulations and laws are brought in, there will always be someone that is mistreating the species and getting away with it.


30 years ago i was a numpty with wc atbs/boas,how exactly would you catch the "right" ones:lol2:
regards gaz
ps on this score count how many crawl cays i have on my available list,contrast this with the total wild population of crawl cays,and yes i started with wc animals.


----------



## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

gaz said:


> 30 years ago i was a numpty with wc atbs/boas,how exactly would you catch the "right" ones:lol2:
> regards gaz
> ps on this score count how many crawl cays i have on my available list,contrast this with the total wild population of crawl cays,and yes i started with wc animals.


Nobody is saying there are right ones and wrong ones, or that they are all catchable???? Just stating the fact that its not all as black and white as some folk would have you beleive. 

Not sure what Crawl Cays whether WC or CB have to do with my previous post either?

In response to the original question, I honestly think that animals that grow too big, are potentially dangerous (ie venemous, capable of constricting adults or children, are poached, collected illegally, or unsuitable for captive keeping), are better off in their natural environment, or in the hands of suitably qualified people as part of breeding and or conservation projects. Retics, Green Igs and crocs included.


----------



## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

DeanThorpe said:


> sorry not being funny lol, atall.. but why arent threads alowed to adapt and change over the period of ten pages as a disscussion progresses?


people seem to hope threads will die unless its pictures of boobs


----------



## wozza_t (Jan 4, 2007)

I think a good idea would be ''a cool off period'', like the yanks use in there gun shops, you go in, pick a gun, pay a deposit, leave your details, then you have to return in a week to collect it, or if you change your mind within that time, you can get your money back without any problems. they use this in a few things. i just think this will help the impulse buying thing!

but i cant see any reason to ban any reptiles that are currently available!


----------



## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

Not even the fact that so many are neglected?


----------



## Andy b 1 (May 14, 2007)

i would ban WC animals aswell, only CB should be avaliable


----------



## wozza_t (Jan 4, 2007)

Andy b 1 said:


> i would ban WC animals aswell, only CB should be avaliable


 
so how would we get fresh blood into the breeding then?


----------



## wozza_t (Jan 4, 2007)

gan1 said:


> Not even the fact that so many are neglected?


just because the reptile is neglected....that is not the reptiles fault, it is the idiot who keeps it. why should the enthusiast (sorry spelling) be punished because the odd prat?


----------



## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

OK, from a different angle........

Why should the reptiles be punished because the autorities cant catch the people responsible for the neglect?


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

gan1 said:


> Nobody is saying there are right ones and wrong ones, or that they are all catchable???? Just stating the fact that its not all as black and white as some folk would have you beleive.
> 
> Not sure what Crawl Cays whether WC or CB have to do with my previous post either?
> 
> In response to the original question, I honestly think that animals that grow too big, are potentially dangerous (ie venemous, capable of constricting adults or children, are poached, collected illegally, or unsuitable for captive keeping), are better off in their natural environment, or in the hands of suitably qualified people as part of breeding and or conservation projects. Retics, Green Igs and crocs included.


What grows too big? I keep Burms and have kept anacondas in the past and they didnt get too big. My current biggest burm is a female, she's just shy of 18 feet and nearly a foot wide - she aint too big.



Andy b 1 said:


> i would ban WC animals aswell, only CB should be avaliable


:lol2: Where did your torts come from? Every CB animal has come from a WC animal along the line, even domesticated species.


----------



## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> What grows too big? I keep Burms and have kept anacondas in the past and they didnt get too big. My current biggest burm is a female, she's just shy of 18 feet and nearly a foot wide - she aint too big.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol2: Where did your torts come from? Every CB animal has come from a WC animal along the line, even domesticated species.


All CB corns come from WC stock too, but the thought of buying WC corns horrifies me, it is just unnecessary. Its a bit like (assuming it were possible, lol) catching WC beardies for the pet trade. No need to do that, why would you when there are infinite numbers of CB stock available?


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

gan1 said:


> All CB corns come from WC stock too, but the thought of buying WC corns horrifies me, it is just unnecessary. Its a bit like (assuming it were possible, lol) catching WC beardies for the pet trade. No need to do that, why would you when there are infinite numbers of CB stock available?


I dont think anyone will dispute that but if it wasnt for WC caught stock and "selective breeding" the hobby wouldnt be what it is today. I cant see anyone selling or buying WC corns but without people buying WC stock of species that arent as popular where will the hobby be in 10 years time? We will have no new accessible species and only corns in another 3 million colours. Im sure people would sooner push the hobby further by having more varied CB species by breeding WC stuff than us just having the same old in another 10 years.


----------



## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

wozza_t said:


> I think a good idea would be ''a cool off period'', like the yanks use in there gun shops, you go in, pick a gun, pay a deposit, leave your details, then you have to return in a week to collect it, or if you change your mind within that time, you can get your money back without any problems. they use this in a few things. i just think this will help the impulse buying thing!
> 
> but i cant see any reason to ban any reptiles that are currently available!


Best idea i have seen in either thread :no1:
Also worth noting that it's one that comes up quite often in this sort of thread but gets ignored in favour of arguing over other options :roll:


----------



## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> I cant see anyone selling or buying WC corns but without people buying WC stock of species that arent as popular where will the hobby be in 10 years time? We will have no new accessible species and only corns in another 3 million colours. Im sure people would sooner push the hobby further by having more varied CB species by breeding WC stuff than us just having the same old in another 10 years.


I sold one or two WC corns last year, they were quite popular.

Strangely it was the people i would class as serious hobbiests that bought them.


----------



## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> What grows too big? I keep Burms and have kept anacondas in the past and they didnt get too big. My current biggest burm is a female, she's just shy of 18 feet and nearly a foot wide - she aint too big.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol2:


Ooh, go tell that to the folks that dumped their burms, retics, nile monitors and caimans on the doorsteps of rescues all over the country...... assuming you can find em.


----------



## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

gan1 said:


> Ooh, go tell that to the folks that dumped their burms, retics, nile monitors and caimans on the doorsteps of rescues all over the country...... assuming you can find em.


Funny, i haven't been able to find the animals - never mind the owners!!

The situation is NOT as bad as people make out.

Boas and Iggies are the main larger animals to appear in rescues, it used to be carpets aswell but they have faded away.
The burm thing is also pretty much done now although it did used to be a problem.

Show me 5 caiman that have been left at a rescue in the last 12 months


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

gan1 said:


> Ooh, go tell that to the folks that dumped their burms, retics, nile monitors and caimans on the doorsteps of rescues all over the country...... assuming you can find em.


So its not subjective then, whats too big for them is also too big for me?



reticulatus said:


> I sold one or two WC corns last year, they were quite popular.
> 
> Strangely it was the people i would class as serious hobbiests that bought them.


That i find suprising, id be interesting in knowing the appeal. Is it ok to PM you about it?


----------



## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

reticulatus said:


> I sold one or two WC corns last year, they were quite popular.
> 
> Strangely it was the people i would class as serious hobbiests that bought them.


Really dont see the point, of course I have no right to knock you for selling them, or breeders for buying them, I just dont see that it is necessary. Same as I dont see the need for people to keep big, or dangerous animals in captivity, yet they do. I have no right to tell them they can't. I do have a right to the opinion that those animals are better left in their natural environment.

I'm not saying these things are wrong, just that I PERSONALLY beleive some things are better left alone.


----------



## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> So its not subjective then, whats too big for them is also too big for me?


Never said anything of the sort, make of it what you will dude, lol


----------



## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

gan1 said:


> I do have a right to the opinion that those animals are better left in their natural environment.


You can have any opinion you want - just keep an eye on your opinions being hypocritical in 10 years time when you can buy a reptile without a genetic deformity and you feel a need to moan about it.
That isn't aimed directly at you, more at all the people who forget why humans aren't allowed to inbreed.


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

Not sure what Crawl Cays whether WC or CB have to do with my previous post either?

because without the wc that i started with i would not be producing 10X the wild population of these boas each year,without these and others there would then be no dwarf boas available,apply this across the board with all species and you will soon be left with a rather impoverished list of snakes available,wc are the basis of everything that anyone here posseses herp wise.
gaz


----------



## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> That i find suprising, id be interesting in knowing the appeal. Is it ok to PM you about it?


If you want ?


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

gan1 said:


> Never said anything of the sort, make of it what you will dude, lol


You said in post 103 anything thats too big is best in its natural environemnt, and im saying whats too big is subjective. 'Thats like totally how i read it dude' :lol2:


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

In response to the original question, I honestly think that animals that grow too big, are potentially dangerous (ie venemous, capable of constricting adults or children, are poached, collected illegally, or unsuitable for captive keeping), are better off in their natural environment, or in the hands of suitably qualified people as part of breeding and or conservation projects. Retics, Green Igs and crocs included

and who decides all this?? you??also what happens when the natural environment is gone(which wont be long,and has already happened to various Carribean herps) getting to sound like a "better off dead than captive" theme going on here
regards gaz


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

reticulatus said:


> You can have any opinion you want - just keep an eye on your opinions being hypocritical in 10 years time when you can buy a reptile without a genetic deformity and you feel a need to moan about it.
> That isn't aimed directly at you, more at all the people who forget why humans aren't allowed to inbreed.


what part of the hobby is this comment pointed at? hopefully its not nievely at just morphs?


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

captaincaveman said:


> what part of the hobby is this comment pointed at? hopefully its not nievely at just morphs?


that goes to the "ban wc" bit,without new blood then non morph animals will become inbred
regards gaz


----------



## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

captaincaveman said:


> what part of the hobby is this comment pointed at? hopefully its not nievely at just morphs?


What's morphs got to do with it?:Na_Na_Na_Na:

How many times do people buy related offspring and breed them later on - morph or not?

It's pointed at the whole hobby. Morphs are just the easy scape goat people direct this sort of comment at when they aren't prepared to take on the full hobby. Me, i couldn't care less so i'll aim it at everyone:lol2:


----------



## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

reticulatus said:


> Funny, i haven't been able to find the animals - never mind the owners!!
> 
> The situation is NOT as bad as people make out.
> 
> ...


lol, ok nobody is saying it is terrible, or out of control, or a massive problem that causes the suffering of thousands and thousands on a regular basis, or that ALL green igs end up in rescue centres, or all retics are unsuitably housed, far from it........ I just beleive strongly that if those species were not imported then there would be less suffering on the part of the animals being improperly cared for. I'm not trying to tell anyone that they are wrong and I'm right, but guys, I have an opinion, I am entitled to it, and I dont see that there's anything wrong with my beleiving that. I dont need to show you caimans left in rescues (though I did go to the trouble of running a google search, where I found an article that stated more than 40 unlicensed Crocs and alligators were rescued in the UK since 2000)


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

gaz said:


> that goes to the "ban wc" bit,without new blood then non morph animals will become inbred
> regards gaz





reticulatus said:


> What's morphs got to do with it?:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> How many times do people buy related offspring and breed them later on - morph or not?
> 
> It's pointed at the whole hobby. Morphs are just the easy scape goat people direct this sort of comment at when they aren't prepared to take on the full hobby. Me, i couldn't care less so i'll aim it at everyone:lol2:


just me on the defensive today, must cut down on the caffeine:lol2:, there just seems to be quite a few morphs= inbreds going about, when the same amount goes into "normals" of many species:no1:


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

gan1 said:


> lol, ok nobody is saying it is terrible, or out of control, or a massive problem that causes the suffering of thousands and thousands on a regular basis, or that ALL green igs end up in rescue centres, or all retics are unsuitably housed, far from it........ I just beleive strongly that if those species were not imported then there would be less suffering on the part of the animals being improperly cared for. I'm not trying to tell anyone that they are wrong and I'm right, but guys, I have an opinion, I am entitled to it, and I dont see that there's anything wrong with my beleiving that. I dont need to show you caimans left in rescues (though I did go to the trouble of running a google search, where I found an article that stated more than 40 unlicensed Crocs and alligators were rescued in the UK since 2000)


 
yeah quite agree, this threads surely about opinions, everyone knows my views on buying cf royals, thats my opinion thats all


----------



## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> You said in post 103 anything thats too big is best in its natural environemnt, and *im saying whats too big is subjective.* 'Thats like totally how i read it dude' :lol2:


If you want to split hairs what you actually said was: 



> So its *not* subjective then, whats too big for them is also too big for me?


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Actually the thread was about given the choice which reptiles would you not allow to be kept.... if any.

I know because I started it


----------



## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

gan1 said:


> lol, ok nobody is saying it is terrible, or out of control, or a massive problem that causes the suffering of thousands and thousands on a regular basis, or that ALL green igs end up in rescue centres, or all retics are unsuitably housed, far from it........ I just beleive strongly that if those species were not imported then there would be less suffering on the part of the animals being improperly cared for. I'm not trying to tell anyone that they are wrong and I'm right, but guys, I have an opinion, I am entitled to it, and I dont see that there's anything wrong with my beleiving that. I dont need to show you caimans left in rescues (though I did go to the trouble of running a google search, where I found an article that stated more than 40 unlicensed Crocs and alligators were rescued in the UK since 2000)


I do know what you are saying and (perhaps strangely) i do know where you are coming from.
I am just concerned that your opinions are based on propoganda or just misguided rumour control.

In my experience the bigger problem is that genuine hobbiests with the best intentions at heart fail to see that the information they have been spoon fed in areas they aren't sure of is actually completely wrong.

The only way to beat this is to spread the truth. Unfortunately this is allmost impossible to do unless people WANT to hear it.

Again, i will remind you all that for centuries the world was definately 100% flat and anyone that said otherwise was a fruit loop.


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

gan1 said:


> If you want to split hairs what you actually said was:


Read both quotes again and you will see one is a statement and one is a question dude


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

ratboy said:


> Actually the thread was about given the choice which reptiles would you not allow to be kept.... if any.
> 
> I know because I started it


 
yeah, that seems to have got lost, someone gives an opinion and if someone keeps that species its taken as a personal insult

so on that note, i think russian rats and radiated should be banned:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

captaincaveman said:


> just me on the defensive today, must cut down on the caffeine:lol2:, there just seems to be quite a few morphs= inbreds going about, when the same amount goes into "normals" of many species:no1:


less coffee baby,by the way morphs are not generally as inbred as people think,every salmon boa produced here at least(and i dont see things being done differently at other breeders) is produced from salmonXcommon breedings,for some morphs a certain amount of inbreeding is neccessary to produce the morphs however it must be borne in mind that many populations of herps are naturally cut off and are therefore inbred in the wild(insular boas,etb's occur in specific valleys etc) generally the problem in non problematical and occurs in nature anyway,yep you can have things occur such as a small proportion of albino boas from one line having one eye,however this one eyed thing also occurs in natural populations of non morh snakes too,have seen one eyed wc etb's for instance.
on the whole its pretty obvious that if producing morphs was a problem it would be self regulating with the production of large percentages of non viable or non saleable animals and would therefore be discontinued,neither of these things have happened or are likely to happen......anyway i'm ahving a ramble now.....time for a ***
regards gaz


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> yeah, that seems to have got lost, someone gives an opinion and if someone keeps that species its taken as a personal insult
> 
> so on that note, i think russian rats and radiated should be banned:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


I dont think anyone is taknig anything as a personal insult i just think people are saying what they personally cant keep shouldnt be kept. They dont seem to realise that there are people out there with large collections of retics who can house them fine and because they cant personally house them then they shouldnt be allowed to be kept.

If people just listed the animals they wanted to see banned it would be nothing more than than a boring list of animals. Offering up reasons opens discussion which is far more interesting imo.


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

PS: this whole thing is a drop in the ocean compared to the reptile skin trade anyway,anyone here possessing anything by Gucchi should retire from all and any wc/import/ban this that an the other arguments immediately:lol2:
regards gaz


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

gaz said:


> less coffee baby,by the way morphs are not generally as inbred as people think,every salmon boa produced here at least(and i dont see things being done differently at other breeders) is produced from salmonXcommon breedings,for some morphs a certain amount of inbreeding is neccessary to produce the morphs however it must be borne in mind that many populations of herps are naturally cut off and are therefore inbred in the wild(insular boas,etb's occur in specific valleys etc) generally the problem in non problematical and occurs in nature anyway,yep you can have things occur such as a small proportion of albino boas from one line having one eye,however this one eyed thing also occurs in natural populations of non morh snakes too,have seen one eyed wc etb's for instance.
> on the whole its pretty obvious that if producing morphs was a problem it would be self regulating with the production of large percentages of non viable or non saleable animals and would therefore be discontinued,neither of these things have happened or are likely to happen......anyway i'm ahving a ramble now.....time for a ***
> regards gaz


yeah i think because morphs have an obvious visual difference then in some minds its therefore "wrong" but they are happy to buy a pretty normal royal for instance thats gone through the same process to produce stunners


----------



## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

gaz said:


> Not sure what Crawl Cays whether WC or CB have to do with my previous post either?
> 
> because without the wc that i started with i would not be producing 10X the wild population of these boas each year,without these and others there would then be no dwarf boas available,apply this across the board with all species and you will soon be left with a rather impoverished list of snakes available,wc are the basis of everything that anyone here posseses herp wise.
> gaz


I dont oppose all WC animals either though, never said I did, thus I dont really understand what you mean, I never said I oppose all keeping of WC animals. My adult collareds are WC, and in the interests of making CB more available, I was more than willing to buy WC's, but I think its sad to see animals dragged in off the plains anbd mountains, having often lived long and prosperous lives in the big wide worls to be dumped in a box and never see real sunlight again all for the sake of a 5 year old wanting the latest craze in pets, if its in the interest of breeding, then thats one thing, if its just going to be a miserable pet thats something else altogether. If you have been able to contribute to the preservation of a species by breeding WC's in captivity, that really is a commendable achievement, but it would be a different matter if people were taking the wild ones for pets when you have CB's available, and the wild population suffered even further as a result.


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> there just seems to be quite a few morphs= inbreds going about, when the same amount goes into "normals" of many species:no1:


I think this stems from if you ask for the recipe to create a Vanilla-Fudge corn snake you are told to breed a Vanilla with a Fudge which will give you hets for Vanilla-Fudge then breed the hets back to a parent to give you what you want.

What I am saying is that you are seriously told to breed corns with their parents to create the morph you want, so it is understandable that they are viewed as inbreds.


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

I dont oppose all WC animals either though, never said I did, thus I dont really understand what you mean, I never said I oppose all keeping of WC animals. My adult collareds are WC, and in the interests of making CB more available, I was more than willing to buy WC's, but I think its sad to see animals dragged in off the plains anbd mountains, having often lived long and prosperous lives in the big wide worls to be dumped in a box and never see real sunlight again all for the sake of a 5 year old wanting the latest craze in pets, if its in the interest of breeding, then thats one thing, if its just going to be a miserable pet thats something else altogether. If you have been able to contribute to the preservation of a species by breeding WC's in captivity, that really is a commendable achievement, but it would be a different matter if people were taking the wild ones for pets when you have CB's available, and the wild population suffered even further as a result
guess i read one of your posts wrong then,my apologies.
regards gaz


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

ratboy said:


> I think this stems from if you ask for the recipe to create a Vanilla-Fudge corn snake you are told to breed a Vanilla with a Fudge which will give you hets for Vanilla-Fudge then breed the hets back to a parent to give you what you want.
> 
> What I am saying is that you are seriously told to breed corns with their parents to create the morph you want, so it is understandable that they are viewed as inbreds.


people also,naturally,tend to apply human values and practices when thinking of snakes whose genetic disposition is rather different
regards gaz


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> I dont think anyone is taknig anything as a personal insult i just think people are saying what they personally cant keep shouldnt be kept. They dont seem to realise that there are people out there with large collections of retics who can house them fine and because they cant personally house them then they shouldnt be allowed to be kept.
> 
> If people just listed the animals they wanted to see banned it would be nothing more than than a boring list of animals. Offering up reasons opens discussion which is far more interesting imo.


This is what i meant, if i said the big 5 should be banned(for my own reasons and not to do with not being able to house them), then the comeback is "well theres some good keepers out there", and i dont doubt that, ive friends with large snakes and ive also met many keepers who must have really tiny penis's:lol2: cause they had them for other reasons


Its an opinion based on what i feel should be banned rather than what i want to be banned, i dont want any species banned, well those bl**dy centipedes should be dwa'd and large snake keepers should be vetted but thats all


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

ratboy said:


> I think this stems from if you ask for the recipe to create a Vanilla-Fudge corn snake you are told to breed a Vanilla with a Fudge which will give you hets for Vanilla-Fudge then breed the hets back to a parent to give you what you want.
> 
> What I am saying is that you are seriously told to breed corns with their parents to create the morph you want, so it is understandable that they are viewed as inbreds.


 
actually breeding back to parents isn't the usual done thing, you will struggle to get the results that way, its usually siblings bred together

This also happens in most species of snake, some may be in your collection unless you know the linage back to wc, ive seen many breeders have an unrelated pair of say common boas, breed and sell and keep back a pair to grow up and breed in the future(usually selectively chosen for whatever atributes)


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> actually breeding from parents isn't the done thing, you will struggle to get the results that way, its usally siblings bred together


really - I didn't know that ? I was always told it was unsafe to breed two animals with the same grandparents which would surely include siblings ?


----------



## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

reticulatus said:


> I do know what you are saying and (perhaps strangely) i do know where you are coming from.
> I am just concerned that your opinions are based on propoganda or just misguided rumour control.
> 
> In my experience the bigger problem is that genuine hobbiests with the best intentions at heart fail to see that the information they have been spoon fed in areas they aren't sure of is actually completely wrong.
> ...


Thing is, its one thing informing people of the truth, but even people who are willing to learn will close their ears when people try to batter the truth into them, instead of just telling them how it is. I dont need to be spoken to like a kid to understand what someone is saying to me, Ratboy said a lot to help me understand the intentions of the RSPCA and the authorities re caged animals, but he was the only one that didnt refer to my opinion as stupid, ignorant or blinkered. 

He simply said it how he understood it POLITELY and I came to see what he was saying was very true. Its different when someone tries to drill it into people by being rude, or condescending. Reticulatus, in your approach over the last few posts (as opposed to other peoples posts before you logged in, not saying for a second you've been anything but polite, lol), I have actually paid 10 times more attention than I have to anyone elses sarcasm, its a shame that some people go in with their blinkers on and will hammer anyone else that has a different opinion. After all, everyone's entitled to their own.


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

ratboy said:


> really - I didn't know that ? I was always told it was unsafe to breed two animals with the same grandparents which would surely include siblings ?


 
no they wont have the same grandparents

say you get an unrelated bloodred and lavender

you put these together and get het bloodred, het lavender

if you put these back to a parent you wont get lavender bloodreds as you have to have both hets on both sides and either parent only has one set of the genetics


these two siblings are put together and that is the only relation in the whole process, these can then be outbred to other morphs

so in that way the grandparents and the parents are both unrelated further up the tree


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> This is what i meant, if i said the big 5 should be banned(for my own reasons and not to do with not being able to house them), then the comeback is "well theres some good keepers out there", and i dont doubt that, ive friends with large snakes and ive also met many keepers who must have really tiny penis's:lol2: cause they had them for other reasons
> 
> 
> Its an opinion based on what i feel should be banned rather than what i want to be banned, i dont want any species banned, well those bl**dy centipedes should be dwa'd and large snake keepers should be vetted but thats all


Im confused now mate, your saying there are species you feel should be banned but you dont actually want them banned?


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> say you get an unrelated bloodred and lavender


Yup... that's the key isn't it... your orignal pair have to be unrelated... sorry... brain fart


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

ratboy said:


> Yup... that's the key isn't it... your orignal pair have to be unrelated... sorry... brain fart


I think im having one of them too, men cant multitask like women :lol2:

Caveman i think i dig what your saying now, you dont want to see anything banned but if a gun was put to your head these are what you would pick?


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

ratboy said:


> Yup... that's the key isn't it... your orignal pair have to be unrelated... sorry... brain fart


 
thats the thing people dont get, the naturals are even more likely to be inbred than the morphs cause of the easier way of putting two same looking snakes together


----------



## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

gan1 said:


> He simply said it how he understood it POLITELY and I came to see what he was saying was very true. Its different when someone tries to drill it into people by being rude, or condescending. Reticulatus, in your approach over the last few posts (as opposed to other peoples posts before you logged in, not saying for a second you've been anything but polite, lol), I have actually paid 10 times more attention than I have to anyone elses sarcasm, its a shame that some people go in with their blinkers on and will hammer anyone else that has a different opinion. After all, everyone's entitled to their own.


The problem is that some people are just naturally rude and/or condescending to others. We all need to try and ignore the tone behind a message in order to concentrate on what is being said rather than how.

Easier said than done of course. Especially if, in your opinion, the other person is a muppet :lol2:


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> I think im having one of them too, men cant multitask like women :lol2:
> 
> Caveman i think i dig what your saying now, you dont want to see anything banned but if a gun was put to your head these are what you would pick?


 
no if a gun was to my head i'd ban the centipedes:lol2:



yeah that would be my choice, not because of the good keepers, but cause of the small penis'd glory types who think its cool to own a big snake and the whole "ive got a big snake", "look how hard i am", weve all met them:lol2:


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> no if a gun was to my head i'd ban the centipedes:lol2:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah that would be my choice, not because of the good keepers, but cause of the small penis'd glory types who think its cool to own a big snake and the whole "ive got a big snake", "look how hard i am", weve all met them:lol2:


And seen them being dragged down the street by devil dogs :lol2:


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

i once went to a show with someone like that, he had some fwc's and was telling all the kids they were marsh cobras cause that made him sound like the big man he wasn't:lol2:


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> And seen them being dragged down the street by devil dogs :lol2:


 
yup thats the ones, burberry wearing, overhanging brows, dragging their nuckles as they walk:lol2:


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

I have to say I personally only know one person that keeps a burm that is over 14 feet.

It may be that they just avoid me  but I do wonder how common keepers of the big 5 are.


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

ratboy said:


> I have to say I personally only know one person that keeps a burm that is over 14 feet.
> 
> It may be that they just avoid me  but I do wonder how common keepers of the big 5 are.


 
i know of someone who has them all(and some more than one), along with yellow anacondas, coastal carpets and commons(being his smallest) and yes he's got them for the wrong reasons.....tw*t:lol2:


theres plenty of burms and retic's round here, mainly down to the morph thing, i know of one green ananconda, one african rock and a single scrub(my favourite of the 5)


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

ratboy said:


> I have to say I personally only know one person that keeps a burm that is over 14 feet.
> 
> It may be that they just avoid me  but I do wonder how common keepers of the big 5 are.


You will be suprised just how common they are, people just keep it quiet. I know 4 people who keep hots and a lot more who keep large snakes - all of them keep it quiet, i didnt even know they kept hots till i went to see their collection. They all keep it quiet because they get lectured by people who think they know better.


----------



## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

reticulatus said:


> The problem is that some people are just naturally rude and/or condescending to others. We all need to try and ignore the tone behind a message in order to concentrate on what is being said rather than how.
> 
> Easier said than done of course. Especially if, in your opinion, the other person is a muppet :lol2:


Shouldnt have to work so hard to find the message the muppets are attempting to relay, if that muppet wants to be heard, he has to get over himself and speak to people on the level, not like the true muppet that he really is, in order to expect their acceptance of what he is hoping to help them to understand, lol


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

gan1 said:


> Shouldnt have to work so hard to find the message the muppets are attempting to relay, if that muppet wants to be heard, he has to get over himself and speak to people on the level, not like the true muppet that he really is, in order to expect their acceptance of what he is hoping to help them to understand, lol


oooo never been called a muppet before:lol2:do i get a medal or anything??
regards gaz


----------



## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

ratboy said:


> If you could ban a reptile or species (including subspecies) from being kept in captivity ... which one would it be and why ?


 I wouldn't want to ban anything really. You should be able to keep what you want. I wouldn't mind some Gilas but I have no chance of getting any because my local council is a nightmare. I understand why the rules are in place but they should be the same all over the country. But thats an entirely different subject...:smile:


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)




----------



## CBR1100XX (Feb 19, 2006)

gan1 said:


> Shouldnt have to work so hard to find the message the muppets are attempting to relay, if that muppet wants to be heard, he has to get over himself and speak to people on the level, not like the true muppet that he really is, in order to expect their acceptance of what he is hoping to help them to understand, lol


Obviously if you want to discuss things then please do, but lets remember its a discussion and not about calling anyone names.


----------



## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

I may be to blame for offering the Muppet term as a conduit. Not sure why Gaz is a muppet though or who called him it!! LOL


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

ratboy said:


> There are many irresponsible ones too who neither have the room or knowledge.


true, but you could say that for every species of animal ever not just retics.


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

reticulatus said:


> That's burms actually :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> EDIT:
> As for what i'd ban, nothing. No reptile can't be kept in captivity.
> What i would ban is ignorant keepers


NOPE burms hold the SECOND highest death toll for pet snakes in captivity.:Na_Na_Na_Na:

EDIT: it seems this is questionable so I'm trying to get accurate info.


----------



## blood and guts (May 30, 2007)

Intresting thread.

Personaly i wouldent ban any reptile spieces but id like to see bad shops, sellers and keepers being much easyer to ban.

Fact is no one in the uk has been killed by a reptile in a very very long time. Ban one thing and others will follow.

Also intresting how people jump stright onto the giants when its smaller spieces like corns that are the most handed in off all reptiles!


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

blood and guts said:


> Intresting thread.
> 
> Personaly i wouldent ban any reptile spieces but id like to see bad shops, sellers and keepers being much easyer to ban.
> 
> ...


True, friend of mine is an RSPCA inspector and she says whenever they get a snake rescue it's usually a corn.


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

blood and guts said:


> Intresting thread.
> 
> Personaly i wouldent ban any reptile spieces but id like to see bad shops, sellers and keepers being much easyer to ban.
> 
> ...


yeah but thats just a matter of numbers, theres more corns kept than anyother snake, it would be interesting to see a breakdown into percentages of that claim


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> yeah but thats just a matter of numbers, theres more corns kept than anyother snake, it would be interesting to see a breakdown into percentages of that claim


but if more are kept and more are handed in (if this is correct that is) then corns are a bigger problem than large boids in this country.


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Fangio said:


> but if more are kept and more are handed in (if this is correct that is) then corns are a bigger problem than large boids in this country.


 
depends how you look at it, if you purely on numbers then yeah thats possible if true, but at the same time you ask a reptile rescue whats easier to accomodate at short notice 10 corns or 2 burms, ive been there:lol2:


if 5% of corns were handed in and 50% of burms then they corns would still way way out strip the burms, thats just obvious numbers

same could be said for leopards and iggys or boscs


I used to rehome reptiles some years back and i never gave out an address and personally collected animals, else you got the same animals dumped everytime

burms(usually normals), green iggys, bosc, and nile monitors


----------



## blood and guts (May 30, 2007)

I spoke to many rescues a few years back about giants and it was only a handfull that where handed in and ready for rehome. When you think how many giants you see for sale perticuly 10 years back it does speak volumes.


----------



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

blood and guts said:


> I spoke to many rescues a few years back about giants and it was only a handfull that where handed in and ready for rehome. When you think how many giants you see for sale perticuly 10 years back it does speak volumes.


 
but compared to corns and kings back then, it was only tiny numbers or giants being sold


----------



## blood and guts (May 30, 2007)

In essex, not axactly true. just one shop would have a few hundred giants in stock and a handfull of the others.

No matter how you try to gloss it over giants aint the big nightmare some like us to think.

fact is at the end of the day a better case can be made against cats, dogs, horses and HAMSTERS. yep the latter puts more people in hospital with bites then any other pet group!

Hamsters should be dwa or banned:Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

gan1 said:


> (though I did go to the trouble of running a google search, where I found an article that stated more than 40 unlicensed Crocs and alligators were rescued in the UK since 2000)


Interesting statistic. Now, notice they say 40 unlicensed crocodilians were "rescued". What if I said it's equally likely that the statistic is "40 unlicensed crocodilians were *confiscated*"... is that the same thing? 

What if some of the keepers of some of those forty crocs were keeping them in the appropriate conditions, with the appropriate feeding and heating and all that, and their ONLY sin was not having a DWA license to own them? Are they really, genuinely rescues? 



ratboy said:


> really - I didn't know that ? I was always told it was unsafe to breed two animals with the same grandparents which would surely include siblings ?


There's an interesting bit about that, which Toyah quite correctly pointed out on another thread:



toyah said:


> Inbreeding does not cause deformities or genetic problems - but it can bring to the surface genetic problems that are carried by the parent snakes. So if you buy a healthy snake from an inbreeding, then statistically, that snake is LESS likely to hide any genetic abnormalities then a snake from an outcross (unrelated parents).


Note the phrase "healthy snake who is a result of inbreeding". Because you know the sire has been matched up with a sibling who is likely to carry the same traits as he does... and if *all* of the hatchlings from that pairing are healthy... then it's unlikely that either the parents OR the offspring carry any severe negative mutations.


----------



## blood and guts (May 30, 2007)

And lets not forget some of the "rescue" crocs where nothing more then rspca stichup jobs!

Its the age old problem, we need better education and self regulation at the shop/seller end of things.


----------



## bribrian (Jan 12, 2006)

Ban the RSPCA...................:idea:


----------



## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

fazer600sy said:


> Obviously if you want to discuss things then please do, but lets remember its a discussion and not about calling anyone names.


Really sorry Sy, lol. I didn't mean that to be aimed at anyone on here specifically, I wasnt the first to use the word "muppet" either, but it was in rhetorical terms, just meaning we are all entitled to our opinions and its not right to force an opinion on someone when saying it nicely would do just as nicely. Anyways, sorry if it seems dorect, lol. Not meant to be that way, just in general terms.


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Fangio said:


> True, friend of mine is an RSPCA inspector and she says whenever they get a snake rescue it's usually a corn.


Listen mr pink snake owning guy, you cant knock the small ones because they are easy to rehome and everyone loves them : victory:


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

WeThePeople said:


> Listen mr pink snake owning guy, you cant knock the small ones because they are easy to rehome and everyone loves them : victory:


ROFL. You're more colourblind than me it seems:lol2:

OK mustn't pick on anything popular.....gotcha!: victory:


----------



## jaysnakeman (May 10, 2006)

i wouldnt personally ban anything i dont think there is a creature out there that couldnt be kept by someone


----------



## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

I don't think any species should be banned, but I would love to see all reptiles licenced. simply to stop all the impulss buying and to have some regulation on how they are kept. I have no problem with anyone owning whatever species they want, as long as they keep it properly, and unfortunetly, statisticly, the majority of "reptile keepers" (including all the ones who go out and buy one corn snake or leopard gecko with no reseach or knowlage, not just those who are genuinly intrested) don't know what they are doing and should not own animals, let alone somthing as specilised to care for as a reptile. I have lost count of how many people I have spoken to who say "I used to have a snake, don't know what it was though. it died"


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

corvid2e1 said:


> I don't think any species should be banned, but I would love to see all reptiles licenced. simply to stop all the impulss buying and to have some regulation on how they are kept. I have no problem with anyone owning whatever species they want, as long as they keep it properly, and unfortunetly, *statisticly, the majority of "reptile keepers" (including all the ones who go out and buy one corn snake or leopard gecko with no reseach or knowlage, not just those who are genuinly intrested) don't know what they are doing* and should not own animals, let alone somthing as specilised to care for as a reptile. I have lost count of how many people I have spoken to who say "I used to have a snake, don't know what it was though. it died"


Sorry but I don't see how you can say that the MAJORITY of reptile keepers don't know what they are doing statistically. I'd put the numpties in the minority personally. A big minority maybe.


----------



## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

not realy, because the Majority are not the sort of people who are on here and actuly have an intrest in the animals, they are the kids who get a corn for christmas then get board after a few months or people who walk into a pet shop to get some dog food and think "that would be cool to own a lizard, that green one looks pretty, I will buy it" not having any idea that they have just bought a green iguana that will live in a fish tank eating iceburg lettuce for 3 years until it hits its first breeding season and attacks its owner, then gets dumped in a park. unfortunetly there are more of these type of people out there than there are people with a genuin love and intrest in the animals. my best mate is a vet at an exotics practice. she sees 2 or 3 reptiles every day, compaired to about 1 bird a week, and virtualy all of these come in with MBD, shedding problems, impaction or some other condition brought on purely by the owner not knowing what they are doing. many of these do not even know what species they own, so how can they expect to give it the care that it needs?


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

corvid2e1 said:


> *not realy, because the Majority are not the sort of people who are on here and actuly have an intrest in the animals*, they are the kids who get a corn for christmas then get board after a few months or people who walk into a pet shop to get some dog food and think "that would be cool to own a lizard, that green one looks pretty, I will buy it" not having any idea that they have just bought a green iguana that will live in a fish tank eating iceburg lettuce for 3 years until it hits its first breeding season and attacks its owner, then gets dumped in a park. unfortunetly there are more of these type of people out there than there are people with a genuin love and intrest in the animals. my best mate is a vet at an exotics practice. she sees 2 or 3 reptiles every day, compaired to about 1 bird a week, and virtualy all of these come in with MBD, shedding problems, impaction or some other condition brought on purely by the owner not knowing what they are doing. many of these do not even know what species they own, so how can they expect to give it the care that it needs?


I agree that lots of people do that. I still wouldn't say majority though. I've been keeping for 12 years and only just joined this forum......does that mean I had no knowledge/interest in my animals prior to joining?

Also a piece of paper with your name on (license) won't make people better reptile keepers IMO.


----------



## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

Fangio said:


> I agree that lots of people do that. I still wouldn't say majority though. I've been keeping for 12 years and only just joined this forum......does that mean I had no knowledge/interest in my animals prior to joining?
> 
> Also a piece of paper with your name on (license) won't make people better reptile keepers IMO.


you don't have to be on a forum to have knowlage or intrest. thats not what I meant, I too have only joined in the last year but have been keeping reptiles since I was nine, thats 13 years now. I just meant that there is a diference between the people who get them because they actuly want them, and those who just buy on impuls or because it is cool, and the latter seem to out number us. if there was a charge for the licence, or better yet, if there was an exam and inspections to prove you knew what you were doing before you bought the animals then it would discourage a lot of the people who just buy them for the sake of it. it would be more trouble than it was worth to go through it all just to get something they were not that fussed about anyway. on the other hand, since a lot of it is not down to intentional crulty but simple ignorance (a lot of that can be blamed on the pet shops who sell the things in the first place) if they had to pass a test on their care first then that would provide the necicary research in its self.


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

corvid2e1 said:


> you don't have to be on a forum to have knowlage or intrest. thats not what I meant, I too have only joined in the last year but have been keeping reptiles since I was nine, thats 13 years now. I just meant that there is a diference between the people who get them because they actuly want them, and those who just buy on impuls or because it is cool, and the latter seem to out number us. if there was a charge for the licence, or better yet, if there was an exam and inspections to prove you knew what you were doing before you bought the animals then it would discourage a lot of the people who just buy them for the sake of it. it would be more trouble than it was worth to go through it all just to get something they were not that fussed about anyway. on the other hand, since a lot of it is not down to intentional crulty but simple ignorance (a lot of that can be blamed on the pet shops who sell the things in the first place) if they had to pass a test on their care first then that would provide the necicary research in its self.


Yeah a lot of it comes from shop owners not making sure people are fully clued up BUT there are websites where you can buy reps no questions asked, delivered to the door. These are a MUCH bigger risk. Enforcing a license would cost way too much money to make it work, it'd fail like the dog licenses did as they were unenforceable. It'd be great if all shops handed out a questionnaire with a few basic questions on how to look after their intended purchase or a law with a cool-off period for all animal purchases.


----------



## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

Fangio said:


> Yeah a lot of it comes from shop owners not making sure people are fully clued up BUT there are websites where you can buy reps no questions asked, delivered to the door. These are a MUCH bigger risk. Enforcing a license would cost way too much money to make it work, it'd fail like the dog licenses did as they were unenforceable. It'd be great if all shops handed out a questionnaire with a few basic questions on how to look after their intended purchase or a law with a cool-off period for all animal purchases.


agreed. I know it would not be practical to actuly do, but in an ideal world and all the rest of it. the websites could cause a problem, although for the most part, the only people looking on them would be people who were actuly looking for the animals and know about the site. in most cases Jo public most likely wouldn't be looking there. everyone knows pet shops exist. the questionair thing would also be good, but again, probably not all that realistic. at the end of the day, a pet shop is a shop. they are there to make a sale, so they are not going to want to refuse to sell an animal to a potential customer. some shops do have a cool-off policy anyway, which is great. when my gran bought her latest budgie the shop would not sell any livestock on the day, you could only reserve it. she had to go back a week later and pick the bird up, which was a bit more hassle, but that in itself in not realy a bad thing. aparently they do quite often get people who reserve animals then never come back to pick them up, proving they didn't realy want it in the first place, it would have just been another impuls buy if it had been in another shop. this was not a reptile shop though, they only had the usual small mammals, birds and fish, but there is no reason it wouldn't work with reptiles too.


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Fangio said:


> Enforcing a license would cost way too much money to make it work, it'd fail like the dog licenses did as they were unenforceable.


Sideways question: Why is it that dog licenses failed over here - but work fairly well in the States? I know that part of it must be that over there your license is issued when you get your dog's rabies jab, and any dog that doesn't have a rabies tag WILL be picked up by Animal Control... but is this the only reason?



corvid2e1 said:


> some shops do have a cool-off policy anyway, which is great. when my gran bought her latest budgie the shop would not sell any livestock on the day, you could only reserve it. she had to go back a week later and pick the bird up, which was a bit more hassle, but that in itself in not realy a bad thing. aparently they do quite often get people who reserve animals then never come back to pick them up, proving they didn't realy want it in the first place, it would have just been another impuls buy if it had been in another shop.


This would work for reptile keepers if and only if you could reserve, say, online first - because I know of several people (including myself) who travel quite far on the day to go to a reptile shop, and don't always have the actual means to GET to the shop a week later. A trip to Coast 2 Coast in Darlington is a full day out for me, and happens about... once a year. Of course, this would also mean that any shop would have to have up to date stock lists available AND take the reservation online or by phone.


----------



## eowyn (Mar 2, 2007)

This has been a really interesting thread :no1:

A few points . . . .cooling off period would be a great idea, i'm in the process of buying a baby conure (a bird) from a breeder, and he wants to meet me several times, and i'm driving a fair way to go up a few times to spend time with my baby. A great idea, not practical for shops, but a simple 7 day cooling off period would work relatively easily.

A test . . hmm, can't see that working at all, for the very simple reason that you can ask 10 different experienced rep keepers the same question, and get 10 different answers. Experience and commitment (imho) is what makes a good keeper, not knowing off pat answers to exam questions. How often do we see on here a huge range of suggestions for the one question, and the answer is ultimately down to that particular animal, what is the correct answer for one may not work for another. Even basics like temps tend to vary from keeper to keeper, care sheet to care sheet. Lack of knowledge shouldnt exclude someone from ownership - lack of willingness to learn should, and if they can demonstrate commitment (by reserving then coming back for, then all power to them - we all have to start somewhere.

xx


----------



## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

eowyn said:


> This has been a really interesting thread :no1:
> 
> A few points . . . .cooling off period would be a great idea, i'm in the process of buying a baby conure (a bird) from a breeder, and he wants to meet me several times, and i'm driving a fair way to go up a few times to spend time with my baby. A great idea, not practical for shops, but a simple 7 day cooling off period would work relatively easily.
> 
> ...


A very good point.

If you're buying a burm say..

What is the "RIGHT" size viv? What if you prefer to spray rather than have a wet hide/sweatbox/pile-o-moss?

there are so many possible "correct" answers to any question imaginable.

Who would decide which was actually the right answer?

Mason


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

quixotic_axolotl said:


> A very good point.
> 
> If you're buying a burm say..
> 
> ...


The person who would decide is the person you are trying to buy the animal off. There are many answers to the questions asked... but it's not an exam where you have to sit in silence and get 90% to get a level 1 degree in herpetology... it's just a series of questions where you can demonstrate that you have at least done a bit of research into the animal you are claiming to be able to keep.

I would think most people here could spot people who know what they are talking about if they wrote a questionairre about the animals they are selling. It's really no more difficult than creating questions from facts that you would find on an average care sheet.

Taking the burm above as an example the question could be "What humidity do these animals need and how would you provide it ?" ... It does not actually matter whether the animal is sprayed twice a day of has a humid hide... what matters is that the prospective purchaser knows what the animal needs.


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

quixotic_axolotl said:


> A very good point.
> 
> If you're buying a burm say..
> What is the "RIGHT" size viv? What if you prefer to spray rather than have a wet hide/sweatbox/pile-o-moss?
> ...


I dunno, I see a qualitative difference between providing one of several "right" answers... and providing a completely wrong answer or no answer at all. For example, if I were answering the question above:

1. Burms get pretty big, but they can ALSO get territorial over vivs that are too large. I would provide a viv that acted as a "large hide" and allow the animal exercise time out of its cage when it gets to its full adult size; while it is young it'd be in an appropriately proportioned viv for its size (I'm guessing I'd use the 36X18X18 viv I've got in the garage for a little'un, then bump him up to a 60X24X24, then long term in something more like a 72X36X36, with 'out privileges')

2. Knowing that the burm NEEDS humidity of some sort (and that the keeper must provide it) is enough... the "How" is less important! I'd provide a sweaterbox with damp moss personally.

Oh... by the way. I don't know that much about Burms. I don't have any intent of buying one. My answers might be slightly borked - because I haven't done my research beforehand!


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Sideways question: Why is it that dog licenses failed over here - but work fairly well in the States? I know that part of it must be that over there your license is issued when you get your dog's rabies jab, and any dog that doesn't have a rabies tag WILL be picked up by Animal Control... but is this the only reason?


Basically not everyone had one and there was no real way of knowing who kept dogs without a license unless massive amounts of money was involved checking every home that had a dog in. It cost the taxpayer quite a bit and didn't really do that much. There are probably ways the dog licensing system would've worked better. The license with a rabies jab bit probably is the key to the US's success(?) with the dog licensing system though is pointless here.


----------



## Onissarle (Mar 1, 2007)

I don't really think there's much that could be considered for an outright ban. It all depends on the experience, resources and capabilities of the individual keepers and facilities. However, I would support some sort of required qualification or licensing being required to own some of the larger, particularly hard to keep, or more 'potentially dangerous' sorts of reptiles. 

I do think a lot of the problems are caused by pet shops selling people critters that are far more than they can handle. Either someone gets hurt, the animal gets thrown from pillar to post when it's too big, or the animal suffers and dies through poor care. So forcing people to make an effort to be allowed to keep them and pass some sort of knowledge or competency test before they are allowed to take them one would deter all the impulse buyers and people that buy snakes to be 'cool' or 'hard'. 

I own a Nile Monitor. Nile monitors are not good pets for the vast majority of people regardless of what anybody might say. They may look cool and seem handleable as babies but have a seriously bad attitude and grow over six feet long. A lizard that large can do serious damage if it wants to and Niles can be nasty. I don't think people should be allowed to just walk into a pet shop and buy an animal like that over the counter unless they can prove they have the experience and/or skill to cope with it.

Although a general reptile license would be largely unenforcable, I think that a more targeted license might work. Not something like a step down from a DWA but more of a sort of ID you have to show a petshop to be able to buy certain things, like proving your age to buy booze. Any shop that sold to someone without that proof would be in serious trouble which would crack down on shops selling inexperienced people unsuitable animals to make a quick buck. Of course, the same rules would have to apply to online shops too.

However, the infrastructure for such a thing simply doesn't exist. The only animal related organisation that currently has the resources at its disposal to manage such a qualification scheme would be the RSPCA and that would be a really big mistake. There would have to be an impartial body that bases its policy on advice from independant experts for any such licensing to work. I really don't see that happening though.


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

really interesting thread this one....as said an outright ban would be unfair to many GOOD keepers of certain species i.e burms, iguanas monitors etc..personally i would LOVE to see licensing on certain herps like burms retics iguanas and certain monitors...BUT then the question is who would enforce the licensing? it just opens up so many cans of worms! i think maybe an age restriction on certain larger species such as burms and retics iguanas and monitors, say over 21`s as these species seem to be the most common ones to suffer at the hands of young keepers wanting to have a large or highly impressive animal just to "show off" so to speak...not saying all young keepers are like this, but the amount of calls i have had off young kids asking for burms when i have advertised reps, and 99.9% have no clue about them and a LOT have even said how if they struggle with it when its really big they will just get rid of it or give it to the zoo...sorry if i have offended any younger forum members that isn`t my intention, but just what i have found over the years.


----------



## tigger79 (Aug 22, 2006)

i would ban any human that works for the rspca lolololol


----------



## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

No reptile in captivity should be banned.If such a thing should ever happen it would result in a mass putting down of serton reptiles as there nowhere for them to go.To own a green iguana,large monitor species,regular retic,regular burm,common boa,anaconda green or yellow.Age of the owner should start at 21 that's a start also some sort of licence/permit not nesseserily the DWA one but somthing.

For the pep's saying ban retic's,burm's,boa's remember they has DWARF relatives that are about as dangerous as a carpet python if that.And as they don't have differant latin name they would get tared with the same brush.So i think a age starting at 21-ish a permit'ect and a reptile vet check to get the permit,so you state your case to,why you want to own and to show you can own such a reptile would be better than a out right ban of any reptile.


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Ian.g said:


> not saying all young keepers are like this, but the amount of calls i have had off young kids asking for burms when i have advertised reps, and 99.9% have no clue about them and a LOT have even said how if they struggle with it when its really big they will just get rid of it or give it to the zoo...


And it's not just young keepers. We do school trips, showing our animals, and last year we talked to a teacher who has a royal. She'd also JUST gotten a Retic. I asked her a few questions, and the answers... bother me.

1. "What's its temperament like?" 'It's a little snappy, but it's only a couple of feet long. We're not worried.'
2. "Oh. What sort of enclosure do you keep it in?" 'A four-foot vivarium.'
3. "What are you going to keep it in when it grows?" 'You mean it's going to need a bigger one?'
4. "Uh... yeah. You do know retics can get well over twelve feet long, right?" 'Really? Oh, I guess we'll give it to a zoo when it outgrows its cage, then.'

We told her she'd best find someone who does dedicated rescue or keeps retics NOW and make plans to either hand over or learn how to care for a much bigger snake... because there's no room at the zoo for ANOTHER retic who got too big. Don't know if she took our advice. Nobody in the Wolverhampton area's taken on a young retic lately, have they?

Adults are just as susceptible to the "I-Want" as kids are. And ADULTS have the money to spend, too. At least when I get the "I-Want" it tends to be for things that I already have a rough idea of what they are - and know that I've got a spare tub in my rack just needing a water bowl, a few hides and some substrate, too.


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

very valid point...ADULTS can be just as bad! and like you say we have the money (or means to get it) which in some ways is even more fatal! although it is so easy to buy burms and retics and large monitors for VERY low prices..even in shops, i have seen common burms for example for sale at £60 each in shops and nile monitors and such just as cheap....so pretty easily affordable for all people young or old, experienced or completely new keepers.


----------



## brian (Oct 22, 2005)

female drivers..............:lol2:


----------



## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

I think all rep keepers should have to have a licience to own their pets. I'm sure the 'serious' keeprs wouldn't mind a small £10 fee and a written test. This would keep the idiots and impulse keepers from owning them.


----------



## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

Incubuss said:


> I think all rep keepers should have to have a licience to own their pets. I'm sure the 'serious' keeprs wouldn't mind a small £10 fee and a written test. This would keep the idiots and impulse keepers from owning them.


And how would that stop the worst of the bunch, the keeper that knows what his animals require but still doesn't give them it? Or neglects their animals as it was only a passing fad, but was clever enough and was willing to part with their tenner so they could get a reptile?

Licensing is just another way of keeping tabs on everybody, same as ID cards, I don't give cash long either, once they get everyone to have a bank acount then they'll do away with it and issue cards only. Then we're really stuffed, as they can track your every transaction and therefore can control every purchase and sale you make.


----------



## reptilemania (Aug 13, 2008)

i think id ban cros and gators , theyre too big to live in an enclosure and need lakes/oceans


----------



## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

ratboy said:


> The person who would decide is the person you are trying to buy the animal off. There are many answers to the questions asked... but it's not an exam where you have to sit in silence and get 90% to get a level 1 degree in herpetology... it's just a series of questions where you can demonstrate that you have at least done a bit of research into the animal you are claiming to be able to keep.
> 
> I would think most people here could spot people who know what they are talking about if they wrote a questionairre about the animals they are selling. It's really no more difficult than creating questions from facts that you would find on an average care sheet.
> 
> Taking the burm above as an example the question could be *'* *What humidity do these animals need and how would you provide it?'*...It does not actually matter whether the animal is sprayed twice a day of has a humid hide... what matters is that the prospective purchaser knows what the animal needs.


Well, guess what Steve?....................... Going back 20 years when I set up my snakes environment, I did what I had to for the big guys and girls to be happy, eating, shedding, and so on, and they are still the same, but I could not for the life of me tell you what humidity they require. :blush::blush::blush::blush:.I would have to go and check out their enclosures to see what they are living happily with. From what I remember though when I looked some years back, the same species were often different with what they were happy with.

*'Sorry'* I'll go away and behave and pick on my best friend instead. :whistling2:

I just could not resist. Me bad. :devil:

x


----------



## tick (Dec 9, 2007)

poshweiller said:


> iguanas,there are too many in rescues due to their size and nature.not fair!


Second this think there should be a ban on breeding of these and import let the back log in Britain die off when there are less of them then moderate cb breeding


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

i think that all animals can be kept in captivity as long as the person keeping is able to provide the correct care and environment. this is something though that I have extreme doubts about. Especially after rescuing several water dragons now. I also feel many keepers provide minimum requirements to cram in more animals.

Therefore I would like to see strict liscensing for the reptile community which would result in suitable consequences for keepers who did not provide the correct care. 

If I was forced to name only ONE animal it would be green Iguanas ( closely followed by crocodilians) but I would prefer liscencing.


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i wouldn't ban a thing...


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

HABU said:


> i wouldn't ban a thing...


Id ban u from the states and make u come live in scotland


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

sparkle said:


> Id ban u from the states and make u come live in scotland


 haha!! yeah...i could see me in a kilt.... that'd be a riot.... although i do have the legs......:whistling2:


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Maureen Collinson said:


> Well, guess what Steve?....................... Going back 20 years when I set up my snakes environment, I did what I had to for the big guys and girls to be happy, eating, shedding, and so on, and they are still the same, but I could not for the life of me tell you what humidity they require. :blush::blush::blush::blush:.I would have to go and check out their enclosures to see what they are living happily with. From what I remember though when I looked some years back, the same species were often different with what they were happy with.
> 
> *'Sorry'* I'll go away and behave and pick on my best friend instead. :whistling2:
> 
> ...


Yes but the point is Mo, if you were to buy a new one, you could very easily find out the information so that you knew. 

I could not tell you the actual humidity that my Trinkets and Rads need... except that it is higher than normal UK air humidity. But if I needed to find out, I could


----------



## CBR1100XX (Feb 19, 2006)

ratboy said:


> Mine would be adult reticulated pythons. I just think they are too big to be housed in captivity.


Same for me and a couple of other large species.: victory:


----------



## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

i wouldn't want to see anything banned except idiots who cant keep whatever species they buy properly.


----------



## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

ratboy said:


> Mine would be *adult* reticulated pythons. I just think they are too big to be housed in captivity.


so you wouldnt ban the keeping of baby reticulated pythons? what do babies eventually become then?:lol2:


apologies if someone else has picked up on this point, ive only skimmed through the thread


----------



## shep1979 (Feb 24, 2008)

i would ban DWA there is just no point of having a dwa species ,why take risks with keeping dwa , i just dont see the point


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

telling someone else what they can and can't have is wrong in my book.... if someone thinks that an animal is too much for them then they have the freedom not to have it but imposing one's own opinion on another is wrong.... i don't think that people should ride motorcycles...should they be banned because of what my opinion is? it's a moral issue...you shouldn't take freedoms away from someone else just because you personally don't like it. if you begin banning things...where does it end? who's to say what should be kept and what shouldn't. where does one derive that authority from? one man's meat is another man's poison... *ban* is a bad word in my book...for about anything..


----------



## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

SiUK said:


> cornsnakes, just to p*ss everyone off:lol2:


I hear that brother lol


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> so you wouldnt ban the keeping of baby reticulated pythons? what do babies eventually become then?:lol2:
> 
> 
> apologies if someone else has picked up on this point, ive only skimmed through the thread


No... I don't think anyone else saw the need to bother 

This place is becoming like an English exam, if you don't point out the blindingly obvious in every post it gets pulled to bits.

But thanks for the info. I thought they were born that size.


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

IF someone has had a retic since it was a baby and it has grown up with them and they have grown up with it... then I do not have a problem.

IF someone is selling adult retics to people they do not know and have no idea of their experience or handling techniques and the snake does not know them... then I do have a problem.

Hence the sale of adult retics should be banned IMO.

If you have one... you should have it from when it very young and handleable and you should be pretty damned sure you are not going to have to sell it in 10-15 years time.


----------



## The Fool (Aug 23, 2007)

ratboy said:


> But thanks for the info. I thought they were born that size.


You mean?!?!?! They are born...small??

WTF - This i have to see


----------



## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

beginners dont usually buy adult retics, there usually euthanised unless there descent breedable specimins or expensive phases rehomed to breeders or people with experience. 
even hatchling big boids are not beginner herps.

it goes for any big boids.

unlucky retic if your new to keeping snakes as pets and get landed with an adult retic by a scam artist.
youll never get rid of it if it's not the pet for you.
it will likely be euthanised.

perhaps the sellers should be sent to prison for 12 months for scamming a customer and also causing unescessary stress on the animal which may end up killed by lethal injection! or a bann on keeping animals ever!

dont blame the animals, they dont make there own choices!



also big boids sit coiled for months in the same place waiting for food as there ambush predators. a vivarium in terms only recreates the wild more!
if you gave a big boid big space they wouldnt ever use it other than when they want to deficate etc.


----------



## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

scorpolendra.... my self christ, theres actual official reports of them killing people, and i can just walk into a shop and buy one... crazy...


----------



## rob-stl-07 (Jun 3, 2007)

i would ban nothing. just the bad owners of the animals.


----------



## matt1977 (Jul 1, 2007)

Diablo said:


> Id ban crickets they do my head in.


I second this lol


----------



## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

Nothing due to its size (people walk round in public with dogs that can do as much damage as a burm/retic etc) If I could ban one single reptile in the hobby it would have to be water dragons......... I see so many with nose rubs, broken limbs and just general damage from hurling themselves at the glass ...its heart breaking, oko there are some fab well adjusted ones in captivity but they just seem a very problamatic species to keep (ans I hold my hands up and say other than short term rehomes through here I have only a little experience so its just a laymans opinion)


----------



## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

Not sure I would ban anything but I would like to see shop owners giving would be reptile owners a a good talking to prior to purchasing the bigger reptiles out there in terms of the care and space they need. Too many Bosc, Burms, and Iggys (to name but a few) end up at rescue centres needing a new home.

I know someone's said that the Asian Water monitor should be banned in their opinion. Obviously I would disagree as I have one. What I will be giving mine is a massive enclosure that will at some point be an entire room (and then some), a good life and the affection that it seems to require. Mine had a bad start in life and due to the subsequent 1 to 1 care it got it now appears to be most at ease in the company of humans and is very docile.


----------



## Andy b 1 (May 14, 2007)

huge snakes, aggressive dogs


----------

