# putting my t out of misery



## keira (Mar 19, 2009)

:sad: hi all
im not looking to upset anyone or to cause debate just advise please, i have lost a couple of my young T's recently and have just put it down to it happens with small slings, but this one seems to have some kind of nerological thing going on. the only way i can describe it is she looks like she been at the brandy. it is really distressing i dont think it fair to keep her alive, but what is the best way to euthanize her. some say freezer but this is slow and painful. some say blunt force help please i cant keep seeing her like it.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

Does the tarantula have access to water? 
What species and size is it?
Can you take a photo of it and post it on here?


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## mrmini (Sep 12, 2011)

Sounds like dyskenetic syndrome to me,I've had many Ts die on me over the years from this.infact not one has survived it unfortunately.hope yours does though if it has DS.good luck


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

mrmini said:


> Sounds like dyskenetic syndrome to me,I've had many Ts die on me over the years from this.infact not one has survived it unfortunately.hope yours does though if it has DS.good luck


Don't go throwing out silly assumptions such as DKS when the term gets overused to cover numerous different ailments in tarantulas, it gets boring.


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## TalulaTarantula (Jan 21, 2011)

Ive also seen freshly molted still juicy T's move and they look drunk and all wobbly?


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## mrmini (Sep 12, 2011)

So wot will you be throwing out after u get a pic and know wot species it is?I didn't say it WAS that I said it sounds like that.


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## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

we can't really say more until we know more about the situation, such as what mcluskyisms asked.

We could jump to many assumptions and conclusions about what it "could" be, but without more information, you really cant say jack.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

Well firstly we should find out if the tarantula has access to water and not bug gel, dehydration is the common most factor that usually gets referred to as "DKS". The "see one post and then presume its "DKS" malarkey goes on _far_ too much on forums IMO and it gets right up my nostrils. 

:mf_dribble:


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Just leave it be. 

They do not suffer 'misery'. They do not experience pain.


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## mrmini (Sep 12, 2011)

U hide it well.I'm aware DKS gets thrown about alot but my spiders that showed signs of it had all been kept with suitable housing and conditions and clean wAter so like many other people I put it down to the dreaded DKS because I had no other explaination.who knows?


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

mrmini said:


> U hide it well.I'm aware DKS gets thrown about alot but my spiders that showed signs of it had all been kept with suitable housing and conditions and clean wAter so like many other people I put it down to the dreaded DKS because I had no other explaination.who knows?


That's what we're trying to find out. 

Ohh and :welcome: to magical RFUK.


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## MofuTofu (Mar 22, 2011)

GRB said:


> Just leave it be.
> 
> They do not suffer 'misery'. They do not experience pain.


I agree. I heard that inverts could not experience pain or stress.


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## mrmini (Sep 12, 2011)

Thanks for the welcome,I feel right at home:2thumb:
stu


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## keira (Mar 19, 2009)

hi all
this is exactly what i didnt want to happen. ok she is a darlingi or horned baboon, so no i cant get a pic and isnt going to try lol. she has a good setup as do all my T's and yes access to water at all times. im no novice i have all different species of the little devils from chilies to goliaths all doing well and a 11 year old salmon pink its just i havnt experienced this before apart from the above mentioned just after a drunken shed. all i wanted was ideas as he has been like this for a while now and i dont think its fair as she would have been picked out in the wild


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## TalulaTarantula (Jan 21, 2011)

This is a rather aggresive place isnt it? xD
I guess the best thing to do would be to leave it and play the waiting game, is the T taking food ect? 
Can you not lure it out the burrow at all? a video may be better, so we could actually see the movement.


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## mrmini (Sep 12, 2011)

How long has she been like it?if it's been I long time I'd probably just keep her going.
Stu


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

Well there was a thread on this the other week and I think the general agreement on the most humane way to euthanize them was to pop them in a black bin liner and brick them.


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## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

Just out of interest, can I ask what you feed it?

Also, any environmental changes made recently?


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

mrmini said:


> U hide it well.I'm aware DKS gets thrown about alot but my spiders that showed signs of it had all been kept with suitable housing and conditions and clean wAter so like many other people I put it down to the dreaded DKS because I had no other explaination.who knows?


We're a friendly lot really, but many of us see too much of what is little different to someone screaming "A unicorn did it!". 

DKS seems to describe a whole range of conditions, from drunken staggering to wild flailing. Most accurately it could _possibly_ be said to describe the movements of spiders as their bodies shut down and they die, thus it's not a disease but a symptom... or number of symptoms that get lumped together. Evidence to suggest this hypothesis is in the movement of MMs as they reach the end of their lives. A number of cases could well be older females dying of old age, the lifespans of Ts doesn't seem to be an area we know too much about.

Drunken staggering is often a sign of dehydration, which, while probably not the case here, can cause wonky movements as tarantulas are unable to properly extend their legs (leg extension is hydraulic).

Other cases that get branded DKS are often spiders with fully extended legs flailing wildly, often flipping themselves over and batting at everything, suggesting maybe some kind of neurological problem, potentially related to poisoning by some chemical or another, or maybe some infection attacking the nervous system. Some have even suggested that it's an underlying genetic disorder set off by environmental stress like a superficially similar condition foundin fruit flies.

As a result of this it gets very irritating after a while when people continually make very basic mistakes or ill informed observations, with an air of authority and then get defensive when you tell them they're probably wrong. My personal favourite is people trying to ID avics from photos (protip: you can't).

----

In relation to the subject of the thread:

If you want to euthanise it, I'd also go with the brick or slab method. Freezing is rather slow.

Though I'd be tempted to leave it alive, and see if it improves. Many don't, but sometimes they do, often I've heard it associated with improving after a moult.

If the conditions are as good as you say (not doubting you in the least mind); I'd just try and maintain them and wait. If it's not dehydration then interference likely won't help.

Also: How old is she? Do you know? Going with the possible old age idea, I don't think a lot of the African "baboon" tarantulas live that long, like 10 year lifespans. A 7 year old female could conceivably die of old age.

Keep us updated please.


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## mrmini (Sep 12, 2011)

I also have heard of Ts moulting and being fine but none of mine ever moulted.as for Avic IDs,there were lots of threads about online IDs regarding Avics on the T store a long time ago.gd read.


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## robowen (Aug 14, 2010)

MofuTofu said:


> I agree. I heard that inverts could not experience pain or stress.


How does anyone know this for a fact? Someone had a conversation with one?:whistling2:


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

mrmini said:


> I also have heard of Ts moulting and being fine but none of mine ever moulted.as for Avic IDs,there were lots of threads about online IDs regarding Avics on the T store a long time ago.gd read.


You can ID like four or five species, all others you can basically say whether it's eastern or western Amazonian.


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## ducks (Mar 28, 2010)

I suspect it's because the neurology is wrong.


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## bulkupman (Aug 16, 2011)

i have today discovered my c.marshalli (horned baboon) sling has this behaviour.

last weekit was fine but this is really crazy flapping around and falling on its back. it couldnt feed as it just runs around falling over.

ummm?? i have put it in a new container with fresh subtrait and new water. i hope its ok... never had this happen to me.

its 100% not normal behaviour and im worried.



Hedgewitch said:


> We're a friendly lot really, but many of us see too much of what is little different to someone screaming "A unicorn did it!".
> 
> DKS seems to describe a whole range of conditions, from drunken staggering to wild flailing. Most accurately it could _possibly_ be said to describe the movements of spiders as their bodies shut down and they die, thus it's not a disease but a symptom... or number of symptoms that get lumped together. Evidence to suggest this hypothesis is in the movement of MMs as they reach the end of their lives. A number of cases could well be older females dying of old age, the lifespans of Ts doesn't seem to be an area we know too much about.
> 
> ...


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

robowen said:


> How does anyone know this for a fact? Someone had a conversation with one?:whistling2:


A little thing called science.


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

bulkupman said:


> i have today discovered my c.marshalli (horned baboon) sling has this behaviour.
> 
> last weekit was fine but this is really crazy flapping around and falling on its back. it couldnt feed as it just runs around falling over.
> 
> ...


To be honest that doesn't sound good. I had a mismoulted rufilata sling that I was trying to nurse back to health start doing that. It died.

You can only hope I'm afraid. Someone might suggest an ICU, but I've got no idea whether that's work or not, as it doesn't sound dehydrated.

Couple of videos, they're all a bit sad, so if you're squeamish then don't watch.

This is a dying mature male: P.irminia-Dyskinetic syndrome (?) - YouTube
Unable to extend legs, though whether it's old age or dehydration I don't know, the abdomen looks a bit plump for dehydration. Hell, it looks plump for a (an?) MM.

"Drunk" walking tarantula: Dyskinetic Syndrome in Tarantulas. - YouTube
Picture quality is not great, but this tarantula looks in dire need of a drink, look at the angles on that abdomen, the sunken look to it. She is unable to properly inflate her legs to walk, so it staggering.

P. regalis flailing wildly: DKS Regalis - YouTube
Note how legs are fully extended, but it seems unable to move its legs in any sort of order, or bring them under enough to stand. Abdomen looks fine.

Contrast and compare, I expect a short 500 word essay to be handed in Friday, no later than 4pm. I'd like you all to pay special attention to the possible causes of the different movements.


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## bulkupman (Aug 16, 2011)

its behaviour i can see is similer to video 2 but speed it up by 400% with the legs spread out more. just imagine a chicken with 1 leg, flapping like mad when its disturbed or scared and then falls on its back. flips back up and looks normal... until you see it move again.

i handled it so it had space to move around and its close to video 2, drunken behaviour.

if i could video i would but i havnt got good enough recorder for that.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Sounds like a problem during a moult.

Oh i love this forum DKS and SADS thrown around whatever next SOAD?? Sudden Obt Aggression Disorder lol


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## keira (Mar 19, 2009)

omg ill try and answer what i can remember. 
ok yes conditions are good never experienced this before and have kept baboons, she is only small so age isnt an issue she is fed a variety but i do breed my own food which all my T's eat, she has only eaten once since this has happened. but at least eaten. 

and for Bulk up i agree with you the video but more brandy than wine lol. if she at least tries to eat again i think i will give her the benefit of the doubt but if not any one got a spare brick they are not using


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## PeterUK (Jun 21, 2008)

Stick it in a couple of sandwich bags and wack it against the wall, that way the spider is out for the count and this DKS, KDS, DIK or whatever it is people throw about these days for a spider dying thread is out for the count as well and this pointless argue . . .er . . . discussion can stop. :2thumb:


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## s3xy_sheep (Jan 28, 2009)

but it does have dks ..........DONT KNOW SYNDROME :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

PeterUK said:


> Stick it in a couple of sandwich bags and wack it against the wall, that way the spider is out for the count and this DKS, KDS, *DIK *or whatever it is people throw about these days for a spider dying thread is out for the count as well and this pointless argue . . .er . . . discussion can stop. :2thumb:


:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:

Think we have a new contender for Garlicpickles crown XD


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## PeterUK (Jun 21, 2008)

selina20 said:


> :lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:
> 
> Think we have a new contender for Garlicpickles crown XD




Eh what ?

Dont understand, insiders joke ?


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## bulkupman (Aug 16, 2011)

i have made a video, its not great because im using a cannon powershot A550.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzbDMpa1pg0

not sure if its working as youtube is being crap

do what you think? 

before the video i thrown in a cricket and it tried to eat it, got it but let go and fell over!


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

bulkupman said:


> i have today discovered my c.marshalli (horned baboon) sling has this behaviour.
> 
> last weekit was fine but this is really crazy flapping around and falling on its back. it couldnt feed as it just runs around falling over.
> 
> ...





bulkupman said:


> its behaviour i can see is similer to video 2 but speed it up by 400% with the legs spread out more. just imagine a chicken with 1 leg, flapping like mad when its disturbed or scared and then falls on its back. flips back up and looks normal... until you see it move again.
> 
> i handled it so it had space to move around and its close to video 2, drunken behaviour.
> 
> if i could video i would but i havnt got good enough recorder for that.





bulkupman said:


> i have made a video, its not great because im using a cannon powershot A550.
> 
> Dyskinetic Syndrome in Tarantula? - YouTube
> 
> ...


Hi Alex,

Is that one of the slings I sent you? If it is let me know and I will send you another couple. I assume all the others are ok and this is just a one off?


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## bulkupman (Aug 16, 2011)

Craig Mackay said:


> Hi Alex,
> 
> Is that one of the slings I sent you? If it is let me know and I will send you another couple. I assume all the others are ok and this is just a one off?


Yes thats correct, it's just the one thats gone wild , do it like jackson style.

no moon walking yet!

If your able to send replacement or 2 that be very helpful.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

TBH yes it looks a little 'off' but not something I would consider euthanising nor immediately screaming "DKS" about. 

Wait and see...I have seen similar behaviour in short bursts associated with panic in exceptionally skittish tarantulas. It did not deteriorate, which is the key thing to try to assess.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

I was just wondering what substrate exactly is that _C.marshalli_ spiderling on, is there some wood shavings in there???


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## bulkupman (Aug 16, 2011)

mcluskyisms said:


> I was just wondering what substrate exactly is that _C.marshalli_ spiderling on, is there some wood shavings in there???


just coconut fibre mix


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## bulkupman (Aug 16, 2011)

Dyskinetic Syndrome suspected in my Orange Baboon Tarantula - YouTube

it's very much like this one.

Looks like i got a T with a disability?


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## bulkupman (Aug 16, 2011)

GRB said:


> TBH yes it looks a little 'off' but not something I would consider euthanising nor immediately screaming "DKS" about.
> 
> Wait and see...I have seen similar behaviour in short bursts associated with panic in exceptionally skittish tarantulas. It did not deteriorate, which is the key thing to try to assess.


and this happens with everything it does with movement, its not random.

Im not nailing it as dks but we have to start with something, or some say, dont know symdrome!

something is up, they molted before i had them and they were all fine. Through this is the only one that has not eaten yet.

so tbh fack knows, i might keep this one myself and consider it special through i dont want it to pull the plug on me.

Makes me wonder about the others


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

bulkupman said:


> and this happens with everything it does with movement, its not random.
> 
> Im not nailing it as dks but we have to start with something, or some say, dont know symdrome!
> 
> ...


Well, all I can say for sure is that all the others are fine. I've sent out 100 of these in the last 2 months (not including the other half of the 50/50) and this is the first one that has displayed any signs like this. I also have a dozen or so still here that are perfectly fine. I'm sure it is just an isolated case. If any of the others were to start displaying similar problems then it would have to be assumed that it's because of something at your end. Please don't think I'm pointing any blame at you there because _it is_ just an isolated problem at present and I very much doubt it's anything you could've done. With any animal that produces so many offspring there are always going to be a few weak ones. I'll send another couple out on Thursday for you if Friday suits you to take delivery.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

bulkupman said:


> Im not nailing it as dks but we have to start with something, or some say, dont know symdrome!


Better to label it 'unknown' rather than anything. 

Soon as you label it a syndrome you are making assumptions that it is an illness. It could be a number of things induced by a number of factors. 

There's nothing wrong with simply playing safe and saying "we don't know". If more people did that, we'd have less mis-use of terms like DKS, SADS, etc to the point of where they are no longer of much meaning. 

Same as how suddenly any white substance is now 'nematodes' - to the point of where people are euthanising specimens and then finding out later it might just be reflux or even bolous. If people had said 'I don't know' rather than affixing a label, those specimens might have lived or recovered.


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

At the risk of hijacking....

I took six slings from Craig and all are fine as well. 1 C.marshalli and 5 S.cal so it is probably just unfortunate for the wee thing. I'm keeping mine on the dry side with the occasional spray and the S.cal have their substrate just off moist and are fine.


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## bulkupman (Aug 16, 2011)

Craig Mackay said:


> Well, all I can say for sure is that all the others are fine. I've sent out 100 of these in the last 2 months (not including the other half of the 50/50) and this is the first one that has displayed any signs like this. I also have a dozen or so still here that are perfectly fine. I'm sure it is just an isolated case. If any of the others were to start displaying similar problems then it would have to be assumed that it's because of something at your end. Please don't think I'm pointing any blame at you there because _it is_ just an isolated problem at present and I very much doubt it's anything you could've done. With any animal that produces so many offspring there are always going to be a few weak ones. I'll send another couple out on Thursday for you if Friday suits you to take delivery.


Sad news im afraid the sling died last night/today sometime after inspection when i got home  this sling was the biggest of the bunch aswell,its a real shame.

ive never had a death of unknown or natural causes until now 

ive always kept my containers clean with no solutions, just water.

That would be really kind of you, someone is always in for delivery's as we have a family business.


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## bulkupman (Aug 16, 2011)

GRB said:


> Better to label it 'unknown' rather than anything.
> 
> Soon as you label it a syndrome you are making assumptions that it is an illness. It could be a number of things induced by a number of factors.
> 
> ...


 
i think we need to launch a project, maybe use 1000 slings of various species but same ones that live in the same environments, each 100 in different mixes of substraits/conditions for variable reading etc

my god it would be a big one to pull.

i just personal think unknown business is bollocks. everything happens for a reason and id rather know the facts (or proven by experiments) than just guess work.

ah well my 2c


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

bulkupman said:


> i think we need to launch a project, maybe use 1000 slings of various species but same ones that live in the same environments, each 100 in different mixes of substraits/conditions for variable reading etc
> 
> my god it would be a big one to pull.
> 
> ...


The reason usually being bad husbandry or possibly just predisposed to getting an ailment. Damn man, sometimes people die without reason. It's just a fact of life and to subject 1000 slings to an experiment is, in my opinion a step too far (not for cruelty reasons mind). Just keep them in the conditions they're meant to be kept in and if they die they die, if they live.... Hooray.

Let the researchers and scientists worry about DKS and whether or not it exists. I believe it does but I don't think it kills Ts, it is *probably* what has caused the DKS in the 1st place that is the mitigating factor.


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## bulkupman (Aug 16, 2011)

kris74 said:


> The reason usually being bad husbandry or possibly just predisposed to getting an ailment. Damn man, sometimes people die without reason. It's just a fact of life and to subject 1000 slings to an experiment is, in my opinion a step too far (not for cruelty reasons mind). Just keep them in the conditions they're meant to be kept in and if they die they die, if they live.... Hooray.
> 
> Let the researchers and scientists worry about DKS and whether or not it exists. I believe it does but I don't think it kills Ts, it is *probably* what has caused the DKS in the 1st place that is the mitigating factor.


ofc within thier recommend temp/hum conditions, just different substrait etc this is not cruel this is what everyone does anyway but to narrow down to maybe a influence.

yes everything happens for a reason, typically i dont brush things to one side and call it a day. thats just me. i inquest.


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## bulkupman (Aug 16, 2011)

the thought was good in my opinion, needed some changes like all drafts.

just shame about ma baby


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

bulkupman said:


> Sad news im afraid the sling died last night/today sometime after inspection when i got home  this sling was the biggest of the bunch aswell,its a real shame.
> 
> ive never had a death of unknown or natural causes until now
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that Alex. I'll get those sent off to you next week. I'll try pick out a couple of the bigger ones for you.


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## erce (May 15, 2009)

Sorry to hear about your sling, I too had a couple from craig and they are fine so far...

Tbh when you look at the spider strategy of reproduction (ie cheap mass production) it is probably inevitable that you get some slings that are destined to never make it- despite the best care. I am always amazed that we can get so many good-uns from such a system!


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

bulkupman said:


> i just personal think unknown business is bollocks. everything happens for a reason and id rather know the facts (or proven by experiments) than just guess work.


My entire point is that until you know the facts beyond reasonable doubt, applying labels for the sake of a label is meaningless. 

Secondly, 'DKS' refers to a set of symptoms (many and growing, since they were never formally defined) and sheds little on the root cause.


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## Rilo|UK (Jun 5, 2011)

Freezing them is like antistatic to them, they just slowly shut down till they die, no pain


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## keira (Mar 19, 2009)

hi all
just an update, luclily enough she is still eating. so ive added exta water around her tank. and been feeding all she wants and even though she isnt 100% she is looking a little more sober :lol2: and she is webbing again so fingers crossed i have got her over the worst


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

Thats awesome news, if she manages to moult she could make a full recovery.


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