# Brexit, tax, Hamm, Houten, and Doncaster



## dcap

I've had a search on 'brexit' as a topic but can't see this discussed yet. While clearly this exit process seems to be taking some time (getting started). And _assuming_ we lose the right to free trade without taxation at the border ...

Does anyone have any thoughts on the movement of snakes (lizards) in/out of the UK to/from Hamm/Houten after the UK leaves Europe? Same for EU breeders bringing snakes over to Doncaster.

Example - if a large scale UK breeder takes 100 animals over to Hamm/Houten to sell, and brings some back, plus maybe some pickups. Would they need certification for 'each animal'? ... or would they list and value their animals as a total when leaving the UK? ... then pay tax in Calais as the point of importation ... then get a tax refund in Calais on the way back for any unsold animals ... and then pay tax in Dover for any new animals bought? ... or would the whole process need to be handled by a reptile import/export agent?

Individual buyers just popping over to buy would need to declare at Dover and then pay tax (again, assuming we lose free-trade).

USA to UK importation is going to be handled via a courier and that will go through customs clearance via an agent and taxed at the airport so the new owner is a bit distant from the process. Plus that is a one-way shipment which is a bit different from Hamm/Houten/Doncaster.


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## colinm

At this stage it is unsure but by the very fact that we are leaving an open market some form of registration, paperwork or licences will be required.


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## ian14

One thing is certain - the need for CITES import and export permits for all Annex A/Appendix I and Annex B/Appendix II species. That includes all python and boa species. So those visiting Hamm or Houten will have to plan ahead, decide which species they are intending to buy and how many, and get an import permit for the UK and an export permit from Germany or Holland before going.


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## harry python

Best ask Bob Clark and all the other non EU breeders how they go on with getting their herps in and out of Europe. Don't seem to be much of a problem for them. Seems to me that herp trade movements seems to be a law unto itself as far as the EU is concerned.


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## ian14

harry python said:


> Best ask Bob Clark and all the other non EU breeders how they go on with getting their herps in and out of Europe. Don't seem to be much of a problem for them. Seems to me that herp trade movements seems to be a law unto itself as far as the EU is concerned.


You have missed the point entirely. Currently, as an EU member, once legally imported into an EU country, there are no further controls on movement due to borderless trade within the bloc. 
However, once the UK leaves, we will join longer have that, and so to bring CITES species into the UK, you will need an import permit, which as I have already explained needs to be in place BEFORE bringing animals over the water.
I would suggest that you read up on CITES before making inaccurate comments.


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## colinm

Not entirely. The Americans and Canadians don't seem to have much problem importing animals into Europe.


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## dcap

No doubt there are some high volume US breeders bringing over some high value morphs, but this is their business not a hobby ... are they doing a two-way shipment though? At least one of them has a UK or EU importer, so maybe they ship to their premises instead of direct to the show. Maybe they can factor in the extra time to ship their animals to the EU importer, then get themselves over to Europe for the show, then leave and arrange the shipment of any un-sold animals. Or perhaps the un-sold animals remain in the EU with the importer to be sold at the next show or elsewhere.

Their reptiles would also be coming in/out of Europe by courier. 

Compare this to someone at hobby scale driving their own snakes in their own car in/out of Europe the evening before the show and then returning to the UK the night of the show. This person wouldn't have the luxury of time to ship their reptiles in advance. Nor would they have the time to apply for and receive the import/export paperwork to return that next day with an unknown number of snakes.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Genuine Question: in the future, could someone apply for an export permit from Germany for say 10 x Royal Pythons, 10 x Green Tree Pythons and 10 x Sumatran Pythons and apply for import permits through the UK authorities for the same?

If come the show you were actually only to purchase 8 x Royal Pythons, 2 x Green Tree Pythons and 5 x Sumatran Pythons would there be any potential issues in doing this or would you have to have the number of individuals stated on the permits? 



ian14 said:


> You have missed the point entirely. Currently, as an EU member, once legally imported into an EU country, there are no further controls on movement due to borderless trade within the bloc.
> However, once the UK leaves, we will join longer have that, and so to bring CITES species into the UK, you will need an import permit, which as I have already explained needs to be in place BEFORE bringing animals over the water.
> I would suggest that you read up on CITES before making inaccurate comments.


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## ian14

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Genuine Question: in the future, could someone apply for an export permit from Germany for say 10 x Royal Pythons, 10 x Green Tree Pythons and 10 x Sumatran Pythons and apply for import permits through the UK authorities for the same?
> 
> If come the show you were actually only to purchase 8 x Royal Pythons, 2 x Green Tree Pythons and 5 x Sumatran Pythons would there be any potential issues in doing this or would you have to have the number of individuals stated on the permits?


I will need to confirm this but to my knowledge it would not be a problem, as long as you don't exceed the numbers listed for each species.


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## harry python

ian14 said:


> You have missed the point entirely. Currently, as an EU member, once legally imported into an EU country, there are no further controls on movement due to borderless trade within the bloc.
> However, once the UK leaves, we will join longer have that, and so to bring CITES species into the UK, you will need an import permit, which as I have already explained needs to be in place BEFORE bringing animals over the water.
> I would suggest that you read up on CITES before making inaccurate comments.


I would be surprised if there is any change to the current little or nil interest shown by UK borderforce toward the passage of reptiles from over the channel in the UK. UK borderfoce total commitment of resources to drugs, beer, baccy, illegal immigrants is unlikely to be compromised to spend time on peoples purchases of pet reptiles.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

So you are advocating people breaking the law? The importation of animals without the correct documentation (although in the grand scheme of things may not seem important) amounts to smuggling and has ABSOLUTELY no place in our hobby.

The fact the UK has a dedicated Wildlife Crime Team tells me that they are infact interested. Certainly my experience of UK law enforcement agencies is that they are actually pretty effective and switched on given the limited resources they are working with. 

Can you imagine the field day the Animal Rights Groups would have if people were knowingly smuggling animals into the UK?



harry python said:


> I would be surprised if there is any change to the current little or nil interest shown by UK borderforce toward the passage of reptiles from over the channel in the UK. UK borderfoce total commitment of resources to drugs, beer, baccy, illegal immigrants is unlikely to be compromised to spend time on peoples purchases of pet reptiles.


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## colinm

dcap said:


> No doubt there are some high volume US breeders bringing over some high value morphs, but this is their business not a hobby ... are they doing a two-way shipment though? At least one of them has a UK or EU importer, so maybe they ship to their premises instead of direct to the show. Maybe they can factor in the extra time to ship their animals to the EU importer, then get themselves over to Europe for the show, then leave and arrange the shipment of any un-sold animals. Or perhaps the un-sold animals remain in the EU with the importer to be sold at the next show or elsewhere.
> 
> Their reptiles would also be coming in/out of Europe by courier.
> 
> Compare this to someone at hobby scale driving their own snakes in their own car in/out of Europe the evening before the show and then returning to the UK the night of the show. This person wouldn't have the luxury of time to ship their reptiles in advance. Nor would they have the time to apply for and receive the import/export paperwork to return that next day with an unknown number of snakes.


If you are buying in the EU then I assume that you will have to apply for the necessary paperwork beforehand (and pay). I don't see that as a particular problem. People will have to pre order their paperwork and animals. This will lead to less impulse buys.


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## colinm

harry python said:


> I would be surprised if there is any change to the current little or nil interest shown by UK borderforce toward the passage of reptiles from over the channel in the UK. UK borderfoce total commitment of resources to drugs, beer, baccy, illegal immigrants is unlikely to be compromised to spend time on peoples purchases of pet reptiles.


Surely there will. That's the whole argument for pulling out of the EU. There will have to be some paperwork needed. I have always had more problems with the French customs than the British and I am sure their checks will be more stringent once we are out of the EU.


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## ian14

harry python said:


> I would be surprised if there is any change to the current little or nil interest shown by UK borderforce toward the passage of reptiles from over the channel in the UK. UK borderfoce total commitment of resources to drugs, beer, baccy, illegal immigrants is unlikely to be compromised to spend time on peoples purchases of pet reptiles.


You are very wrong.
Once we leave the EU, we will no longer be part of a borderless interior. So for the purpose of CITES species, which includes every species of python and boa, the only way to import will be to comply with CITES.That includes export and import permits. This is already enforced rigorously with Ukbf having a dedicated CITES team. The apparent lack of interest in animals being brought to the UK from Europe is simply because if they are already in the EU, they can be moved country to country without any further regulation.
If anything, I am anticipating an increase in enforcement of this, especially when Hamm and Houten are on, certainly for a few years.


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## harry python

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> So you are advocating people breaking the law? The importation of animals without the correct documentation (although in the grand scheme of things may not seem important) amounts to smuggling and has ABSOLUTELY no place in our hobby.
> 
> The fact the UK has a dedicated Wildlife Crime Team tells me that they are infact interested. Certainly my experience of UK law enforcement agencies is that they are actually pretty effective and switched on given the limited resources they are working with.
> 
> Can you imagine the field day the Animal Rights Groups would have if people were knowingly smuggling animals into the UK?


"Keep calm and carry on" Nothing has actually changed at present. As to smuggling only bit off that I see is when herp trippers to Euro shows stop off at Adinkerke the UK's baccy capital and fill their bags with baccy to sell on once they get back home. 

Can you imagine the field day the Animal Rights Groups would have if people were knowingly smuggling baccy into the Uk under cover of their animal pickups.


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## wagg

harry python said:


> "Keep calm and carry on" Nothing has actually changed at present. As to smuggling only bit off that I see is when herp trippers to Euro shows stop off at Adinkerke the UK's baccy capital and fill their bags with baccy to sell on once they get back home.
> 
> Can you imagine the field day the Animal Rights Groups would have if people were knowingly smuggling baccy into the Uk under cover of their animal pickups.



You know what i second this motion.:notworthy: really fed up of people scare mongoring and panicking. Everyone needs to chill out. And befor someone says anything i didnt vote.


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## ian14

harry python said:


> "Keep calm and carry on" Nothing has actually changed at present. As to smuggling only bit off that I see is when herp trippers to Euro shows stop off at Adinkerke the UK's baccy capital and fill their bags with baccy to sell on once they get back home.
> 
> Can you imagine the field day the Animal Rights Groups would have if people were knowingly smuggling baccy into the Uk under cover of their animal pickups.


No, nothing has changed yet, you are right.
But as of March 29 2019, it will. 
So those visiting Hamm, Houten, or any other EU show need to start looking at the process of getting CITES permits, and the costs involved.


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## dcap

wagg said:


> You know what i second this motion.:notworthy: really fed up of people scare mongoring and panicking. Everyone needs to chill out. And befor someone says anything i didnt vote.


I'm not seeing anyone panic in this thread! Despite it being frequented by a troll (not you sir/madam).

Just curious to see what will happen to the in/out of reptiles for Hamm/Houten shows. This will also impact Doncaster. I've never been to any of these shows and have no real intention (might do a Donny one day, might do a Hamm/Houten before we finally get around to brexiting, but probably not). Since a lot of UK reptiles shop will source their snakes/lizards/other from Hamm/Houten it will also impact what is available to new reptile owners.

And the good news is that the flippers will hopefully stop ... those are the people who go to Hamm/Houten to pick up snakes and then sell them on privately in the UK - pretending that they are their own hatchlings. They will hopefully be discouraged financially by the future regime changes. 

Not sure how relevant your decision not to vote is, but thanks for sharing.


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## colinm

ian14 said:


> No, nothing has changed yet, you are right.
> But as of March 29 2019, it will.
> So those visiting Hamm, Houten, or any other EU show need to start looking at the process of getting CITES permits, and the costs involved.


Yes both British and EU. I wonder what paperwork we will need for non CITES species ?


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## dcap

colinm said:


> Yes both British and EU. I wonder what paperwork we will need for non CITES species ?


Perhaps it'll be paperwork with the queen's (or king's) head on it in the form of tax.


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## wagg

dcap said:


> I'm not seeing anyone panic in this thread! Despite it being frequented by a troll (not you sir/madam).
> 
> Just curious to see what will happen to the in/out of reptiles for Hamm/Houten shows. This will also impact Doncaster. I've never been to any of these shows and have no real intention (might do a Donny one day, might do a Hamm/Houten before we finally get around to brexiting, but probably not). Since a lot of UK reptiles shop will source their snakes/lizards/other from Hamm/Houten it will also impact what is available to new reptile owners.
> 
> And the good news is that the flippers will hopefully stop ... those are the people who go to Hamm/Houten to pick up snakes and then sell them on privately in the UK - pretending that they are their own hatchlings. They will hopefully be discouraged financially by the future regime changes.
> 
> Not sure how relevant your decision not to vote is, but thanks for sharing.


No not just panic on this but every where. Just seem to hear everyone flapping about. It hasnt been done befor so no one truely knows. Well have to see whats in surprise for us lol:whistling2: 

Some people are touchy about wa you voted. There was a customer in work and insaid i provz would of voted out and breifly explained why. He turned around and said i compleatly disagree with you and hasnt really spoken to me.properly since. I was like what. There we are. Really liked your comment about the tax tho. Made me laugh. :2thumb:


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## harry python

dcap said:


> Perhaps it'll be paperwork with the queen's (or king's) head on it in the form of tax.


Tax has to be the certain thing to change even if the UK incorporates a Europe wide cities management scheme. Not too sure what the tax take is on a Rolex or other valuable items brought back to the Uk from outside the EU but would imagine it will add a fair bit to a high value herp.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Eh? The whole basis of this thread is about what could or may happen - so yes, I absolutely agree that nothing has changed at the moment. I was commenting specifically on your remarks about the law enforcement authorities not really caring about some animals being imported without the correct paperwork. 

Apologies, I thought we were on a reptile forum - not a recreational drug one!! 



harry python said:


> "Keep calm and carry on" Nothing has actually changed at present. As to smuggling only bit off that I see is when herp trippers to Euro shows stop off at Adinkerke the UK's baccy capital and fill their bags with baccy to sell on once they get back home.
> 
> Can you imagine the field day the Animal Rights Groups would have if people were knowingly smuggling baccy into the Uk under cover of their animal pickups.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Also, *hypothetically* speaking if Scotland were to remain / rejoin the EU I wouldn't have any problems in bringing animals back from the continent. 

Supposing this were the case, *hypothetically* speaking I could have problems selling animals at Doncaster however!!


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## dcap

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Also, *hypothetically* speaking if Scotland were to remain / rejoin the EU I wouldn't have any problems in bringing animals back from the continent.
> 
> Supposing this were the case, *hypothetically* speaking I could have problems selling animals at Doncaster however!!


Yep, and the England/Scotland border would be a tax border!
So anyone living in a border town couldn't pop over the border and bring back more than 2x bottles of wine! 

Didn't N.Ireland & Eire say they were not going to make a border?

You might need some 'in transit' paperwork though for Scotland to/from Hamm/Houten to cover the time you are driving through in 'England'.

*If* that happens then I guess we would also need to stop using the term United Kingdom or re-define it as England/Wales/N.Ireland.


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## dcap

As someone said above - it might make Hamm/Houten more of an 'order in advance' place rather than one to go browse. I guess the UK pet shops have the contact details of the people they know with tables out there and probably already arrange some sales in advance. 

(if anyone has the contact details of the large scale Czech colubrid breeder, then please PM them to me, I seem to have a lost my link to their website)


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## ian14

dcap said:


> Yep, and the England/Scotland border would be a tax border!
> So anyone living in a border town couldn't pop over the border and bring back more than 2x bottles of wine!
> 
> Didn't N.Ireland & Eire say they were not going to make a border?
> 
> You might need some 'in transit' paperwork though for Scotland to/from Hamm/Houten to cover the time you are driving through in 'England'.
> 
> *If* that happens then I guess we would also need to stop using the term United Kingdom or re-define it as England/Wales/N.Ireland.


It would be very complicated! You need to obtain an import permit and re-export permit from Scotland into England and onwards to whichever EU country you are attending, and then an import permit to come back into England with a re-export permit to take them back to Scotland.
You may also need an import permit from the EU country and another import permit for Scotland.
Get just one permit wrong, or get the wrong type, and the entire consignment gets seized.


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## harry python

Thinking about this from a different angle I would imagine people with large breeding collections in the UK will be praying night and day for more obstacles to the import of animals from Euro shows. Every grey cloud has a silver lining.


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