# WTF... what do people actually think!



## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

Why the hell would any idiot buy this... its one of the worst things I've ever seen on ebay.

Foxy-tails

As someone who longs for nothing more than a fennec fox, I find it terrible that anyone would buy such disgusting products... I even emailed the seller to tell them how disgusted I am.

Not that I expect it to make a difference but its just good to get your point over sometimes!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

a lot of tailless fennec foxes about now?

that's for tying flies... why waste tails? might as well use them for something eh?


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

HABU said:


> a lot of tailless fennec foxes about now?
> 
> that's for tying flies... why waste tails? might as well use them for something eh?


cos in the uk we dont really 'use' the fox for anything else!

People here see fur as an outdated thing that no one but old people or ignorant people would choose to wear!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

ambyglam said:


> cos in the uk we dont really 'use' the fox for anything else!
> 
> People here see fur as an outdated thing that no one but old people or ignorant people would choose to wear!


 you don't fly fish i'm guessing?

Welcome to Wapsi Fly, Inc.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

what's the problem with it? The fur is imported and are from ethical sources.



> *Ethical Policy*
> 
> We have a strict ethical and environmental policy governing the management of our products. Our tails are imported into the UK under a General Licence AW TAY GEN 2003 1180 Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) does not apply to this product. *We do not trade in endangered species.* All furs imported from the USA are in compliance with the United States Fish & Wildlife Services ( USFWS) Export Regulations and supplied by Fur Traders licensed to Import or Export from the USA. All Furs imported from the European Union and Europe are imported under the prevailing regulations and requirements at time of import. *We do not import fur or fur products from China.* All our suppliers are audited and strictly comply with ethical and humane farming regulations. *We do not buy from Trappers or unregistered traders*




Couldn't see the policy yourself? well i'm guessing you didn't google foxy tails, find their website and look at the small print.


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## purpleskyes (Oct 15, 2007)

Meko said:


> what's the problem with it? The fur is imported and are from *ethical sources.*


I wouldnt believe that for a second there are very few ethical fur farms the majority of them skin animals alive. Their reason being apperately the fur is of a better quality if the blood continues flowing to it while its being cut off.


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

so just because something is ethical you justify it???

Why the hell would someone wanna hang a piece of dead animal from their handbag?

The purchase of all fur items encourages the purchase of non ethical fur... like dog and cat fir from china!

Even the wearing of fake fur which looks extremely like real fur is now frowned upon in the fashion world, as it encourages people to wear the real thing... no matter where its sourced, and as you can imagine, as someone who keeps chinchillas I hardly find this a pleasing thought!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

purpleskyes said:


> I wouldnt believe that for a second there are very few ethical fur farms the majority of them skin animals alive. Their reason being apperately the fur is of a better quality if the blood continues flowing to it while its being cut off.


Surely it is extremely difficult to cut the skin off an animal and get a good, clean fur if the animal is struggling and trying to get away?

All the information I can find that _isn't _from Animal Rights groups (who can be believed about as far as they can be thrown) says that farmed fur animals are euthanised first.


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

purpleskyes said:


> I wouldnt believe that for a second there are very few ethical fur farms the majority of them skin animals alive. Their reason being apperately the fur is of a better quality if the blood continues flowing to it while its being cut off.


exactly, one of the saddest videos I ever saw was of what i thought was a steak, until it moved and blinked, it was a fox that had been skinned alive and the only hair left on its body was its eyelashes... This is the moment when I realised just how foul the human race can be, that a human being could do that to an animal in the name of fashion??? 

This website is full of animal lovers, and as such should avoid any fur, whether claimed ethical or not, and the same goes for pet food with rabbit in it... keeping the uk fur industry from extinction!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

ambyglam said:


> exactly, one of the saddest videos I ever saw was of what i thought was a steak, until it moved and blinked, it was a fox that had been skinned alive and the only hair left on its body was its eyelashes... This is the moment when I realised just how foul the human race can be, that a human being could do that to an animal in the name of fashion???


What is even fouller is that an animal rights group PAID someone to do it that way.... because normally they'd be killed first.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

I felt compelled enough to send them an appropriately worded email!!!


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## purpleskyes (Oct 15, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> *Surely it is extremely difficult to cut the skin off an animal and get a good, clean fur if the animal is struggling and trying to get away?*
> 
> All the information I can find that _isn't _from Animal Rights groups (who can be believed about as far as they can be thrown) says that farmed fur animals are euthanised first.


They stun them first hit them over the head and then get to work. In the case of reptiles they nail them to a piece of wood fill them up with water and skin them.


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> What is even fouller is that an animal rights group PAID someone to do it that way.... because normally they'd be killed first.


if that makes you feel better about fur then fair enough, however remember that people in different countries have different feelings towards animals than we do and skinning an animal alive is not uncommon, as the claim is that the fur is better quality, much as they claim in chinese medicine that tiger bone and bear bile is amazingly healing!

different cultures think different things!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Fur Farming in North America


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## Siouxzy (Sep 20, 2009)

ambyglam said:


> Why the hell would any idiot buy this... its one of the worst things I've ever seen on ebay.
> 
> Foxy-tails
> 
> ...


Totally agree with you, disgusting. I can not believe they have over 2600 feedback... sometimes I really hate humans :cussing:


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

HABU said:


> Fur Farming in North America


well it would be nice to see all these family businesses shut once people realise that we have our own skins to wear and do not need to kill a whole bunch of animals so you can look stupid!

The only time fur looks good is on the animal it belongs to!

and anyway this thread is about people selling fox tails to hang on stuff like handbags and scooters... who are the idiots that buy these things and why do they think it looks nice, the tail should be on the fox it belongs to!


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## tanliaza (May 11, 2010)

I think this is disgusting, animals shouldn't be bred just for fur.
Yes a lot of people fly fish here but there are loads of artificial products on the market for tying flies.
There is NO NEED for real fur to be used for anything but keeping the animal warm.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

i just ordered a keyring from them.


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## NaomiR (Jan 26, 2009)

Siouxzy said:


> Totally agree with you, disgusting. I can not believe they have over 2600 feedback... sometimes I really hate humans :cussing:


I take it you "humans" are totally vegan then??

Honestly there are so many hypocrites, that's what makes ME sick it's all very well to say a dear fluffy fox shouldn't be skinned or killed for its fur (or stupid tail, whatever) but it's okay for cattle and lambs to be stunned daily for us to eat???

You can't have it both ways surely??


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

NaomiR said:


> I take it you "humans" are totally vegan then??
> 
> Honestly there are so many hypocrites, that's what makes ME sick it's all very well to say a dear fluffy fox shouldn't be skinned or killed for its fur (or stupid tail, whatever) but it's okay for cattle and lambs to be stunned daily for us to eat???
> 
> You can't have it both ways surely??


Im vegan!

god this is like the 2nd time in 2 days this has come up!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

ambyglam said:


> Im vegan!
> 
> god this is like the 2nd time in 2 days this has come up!


What about the cute fluffy mice, rats, songbirds, insects and other invertebrates that are killed by ground preparation for monocrops, pesticides applied to them and harvesting of those vegetarian monocrops? 

There is no way to avoid death in order for you to live.

Granted, I think it's a bit tasteless to kill that which neither you nor your animals intend to eat - and foxes/mink/etc count, although I suppose they ARE used for fertiliser....


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

There was a propaganda video I remember that was proven to be created solely for spear-heading an animal welfare campaign against the fur trade.I forget what they were skinning now, but it was alive.


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> There is no way to avoid death in order for you to live.


but there is a way to greatly reduce it.

and since the meat industry produces more greenhouse gasses than transport, it would be better for everyone to stop eating meat or at least eat less meat. Meat in the western world is a luxury, we forget it is a luxury sometimes because it is so cheap compared to years ago. In other countries meat is a rare treat because they need the cow they own to pull the plough to plant the crops. Not cut down the trees to make fields for more cows! To think that millions of animals are born, raised then killed every year for clothing only is beyond awful, from a humanistic view and from an environmental view.

Some people claim that fur is greener because it is biodegradable... so is cotton and hemp, and hemp grows faster than weeds, produces o2 and can be used for tons of stuff from clothing to cosmetics! However when a mink is born, it needs to be fed, which produces faeces, the cages need cleaned out, using chemicals, the animals are killed, producing waste and then the treatment of the fur/skin uses more chemicals which often find their way into the water supply, and in any case, have to go somewhere.

But at the end of the day, stupid vain people are gonna think fur is luxurious because its expensive, and its just a show off thing, however these people have no real heart, but fortunately most of the people on this forum do, thats why we all care for our pets!


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

I'm an awful human being. :lol2::lol2:



ambyglam said:


> and the same goes for pet food with rabbit in it... keeping the uk fur industry from extinction!


So, it's OK for cows, lamb, sheep, chickens, turkeys, etc...to be killed for pet food, but not rabbits? :lol2:



ambyglam said:


> To think that millions of animals are born, raised then killed every year for clothing only is beyond awful, from a humanistic view and from an environmental view.



To be honest, I doubt this is much true. I imagine most fur animals go to some use or another, being as they are more often than not relatively expensive to raise. In European farms at least.


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## NaomiR (Jan 26, 2009)

and some people are more concerned with ENORMOUS signatures expanding bandwidth and deepening our carbon footprint

blah blah blah blah :whistling2:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

ambyglam said:


> but there is a way to greatly reduce it.


No. There is no way to reduce it. All you do is disguise the deaths, or kill more smaller animals.

I would rather one cow (or two, or three) is killed to feed me for a year than thousands of mice, songbirds and other smaller animals that are killed just in producing wheat and soy on existing land, let alone clear-cutting NEW land for it.



> and since the meat industry produces more greenhouse gasses than transport,


There have been large herbivores belching and farting all over the world since there have been large herbivores.... it's just the particular *species* that have changed. The grain/legume industry isn't exactly eco-friendly, either - desertification is a horrible thing.



> Not cut down the trees to make fields for more cows!


They cut down the trees to make fields to grow wheat, rice, corn and soy in too.... 



> and hemp grows faster than weeds, produces o2 and can be used for tons of stuff from clothing to cosmetics!


And "eco-friendly" jute is grown on vast plantations where Madagascan tropical forest used to be. There are trade-offs with everything. The hemp plants eat too - they need fertiliser, which may well be of animal origin - or it's stripped from under the ground, a non-renewable resource.



> However when a mink is born, it needs to be fed


On industrial waste food that is deemed unacceptable for human use and would otherwise be destroyed.



> which produces faeces


Which can be used for fertiliser....



> the animals are killed, producing waste


Which again can be used as fertiliser.... blood-and-bone meal is great plant food.

No, I don't own any fur that isn't attached to its original wearer. I don't intend to. 

And the animal that was skinned alive at the *paid request* of an animal rights group "to show how horrible the industry is" was a raccoon dog.


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## Dixie19 (Oct 5, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> No. There is no way to reduce it. All you do is disguise the deaths, or kill more smaller animals.
> 
> I would rather one cow (or two, or three) is killed to feed me for a year than thousands of mice, songbirds and other smaller animals that are killed just in producing wheat and soy on existing land, let alone clear-cutting NEW land for it.
> 
> ...


 
Im not arse kissing, but you really know your stuff and I agree with every point you have made so far : victory: but I suppose ignorance is bliss, especially when it comes to death.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> They cut down the trees to make fields to grow wheat, rice, corn and soy in too....


You forgot about all the wildlife that gets killed when making all this veggie and vegan crap.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Meko said:


> You forgot about all the wildlife that gets killed when making all this veggie and vegan crap.


Thought I'd covered that by mentioning 'em here:



> I would rather one cow (or two, or three) is killed to feed me for a year than thousands of mice, songbirds and other smaller animals that are killed just in producing wheat and soy on existing land, let alone clear-cutting NEW land for it.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

ambyglam said:


> Why the hell would any idiot buy this... its one of the worst things I've ever seen on ebay.
> 
> Foxy-tails
> 
> ...


Many thousands of fly fisherman will want the fox tails for tieing their own flies. You do know that hundreds of people are out every week killing foxes to protect livestock don't you? Why not use their tails for fly tying? It makes perfect sense to me. Theres nothing unethical about it at all.

I would imagine the company if they bother to read your email will probably smile and think "not another townie" or something similar. 

Why not contact the fox hunters who shoot the foxes, the anglers who use the tails to tie flies and the company selling the on ebay and tell them how you want to keep an exotic animal (Fennec fox) as a pet far removed from it's natural habitat as it could be and see how seriously they take you on matters such as animal welfare?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Mynki said:


> You do know that hundreds of people are out every week killing foxes to protect livestock don't you? Why not use their tails for fly tying?


The fur on the eBay link appears to be farmed fox fur - the platinum and cinnamon varieties don't appear to be bleached-and-dyed normal red fox, as they appear to still have the agouti banding.


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## Evangeline (May 23, 2010)

I did just watch a video to do with it and see why some people are saying well you eat cows and that, but they are not treated near as bad as these poor animals. Atleast they dont cut your rump steaks out while the animals is alive and breathing, you dont get lamb chops while the animals is alive and breathing. Atleast put the poor thing out of its miery when finished with, those poor things must be in more pain than anyone on this forum!!

http://www.peta.org/feat/chineseFurFarms/index.asp Lots of blood and that so dont watch if you got a weak stomach.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Thought I'd covered that by mentioning 'em here:


 
i know but you didn't stick the boot in at veggies and vegans when you said it


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Evangeline said:


> http://www.peta.org/feat/chineseFurFarms/index.asp Lots of blood and that so dont watch if you got a weak stomach.


Yup, that'd probably be the video that they PAID the fur farmers NOT to kill the animals first....

http://www.furcommission.com/news/newsF08q.htm


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## trw (Mar 2, 2009)

Evangeline said:


> I did just watch a video to do with it and see why some people are saying well you eat cows and that, but they are not treated near as bad as these poor animals. Atleast they dont cut your rump steaks out while the animals is alive and breathing, you dont get lamb chops while the animals is alive and breathing. Atleast put the poor ****er out of its miery when finished with, those poor things must be in more pain than anyone on this forum!!
> 
> http://www.peta.org/feat/chineseFurFarms/index.asp Lots of blood and that so dont watch if you got a weak stomach.



ive previously watched this video and dont intend to watch it again, but this is the video people are talking about when they are mentioning about animal rights groups paying the skinners to skin them alive for the purpose of highlighting how cruel it is. this is not the usual practice. animal rights groups are on the whole a joke. they are filled with people who claim th want nothing but happyness for animals, and then go and pay skinners to do such cruel things just for propaganda. 
also i think i heard about an animal rights group which bombed a laboratory filled with scientists and animals to stop cruelty.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Evangeline said:


> I did just watch a video to do with it and see why some people are saying well you eat cows and that, but they are not treated near as bad as these poor animals. Atleast they dont cut your rump steaks out while the animals is alive and breathing, you dont get lamb chops while the animals is alive and breathing. Atleast put the poor ****er out of its miery when finished with, those poor things must be in more pain than anyone on this forum!!
> 
> http://www.peta.org/feat/chineseFurFarms/index.asp Lots of blood and that so dont watch if you got a weak stomach.


what you're forgetting is that ANYTHING that is found on the PETA website is the most extreme that you can find. It's never typical but extreme just for the :gasp: factor.


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## mEOw (Dec 28, 2006)

ambyglam said:


> Im vegan!
> 
> god this is like the 2nd time in 2 days this has come up!


that explains a lot....


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

foxes are killed to protect livestock, there tails can be used
foxes are rasied in captivity for their fur to be used, 
cows are raised to for their milk, some are killed to make my shoes and couch
rats and mice are gassed so i can feed my snakes
s:censor:t happens

and as Ssthisto and Meko have said, PETA paid them to skin the animal like that, and they always use the extreme, they never show the farms that are humane, i'm fully aware of how the minority is treated, but i'll still eat the meat


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## tokay (Mar 13, 2007)

I used to own a peta t-shirt and i wore it with pride....

It was the classic one saying "PETA" and underneath the writing "People Eating Tasty Animals" Dunno where it is now


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> Yup, that'd probably be the video that they PAID the fur farmers NOT to kill the animals first....
> 
> Latest Shock Video





reptile_man_08 said:


> There was a propaganda video I remember that was proven to be created solely for spear-heading an animal welfare campaign against the fur trade.I forget what they were skinning now, but it was alive.


That's the one


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> The fur on the eBay link appears to be farmed fox fur - the platinum and cinnamon varieties don't appear to be bleached-and-dyed normal red fox, as they appear to still have the agouti banding.


Some of it may be farmed , but I can assure you the fur of many foxes shot here in the UK ends up being used to make flies for fly fishing. As does grey squirrel fur etc but I digress.....


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## Evangeline (May 23, 2010)

I wasnt saying they cant kill the foxes, the point is about how much pain they are in. Although foxes arent actually eaten and that, but used for fertilizer. You can use other fertilizers such as manure, veg and that. But the poor creature, after it was skinned it was put in a pile of other ones all skinned moving about in agony. It was dreadful. I was too shocked to be emotional. I only watched it to see how bad it was.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Evangeline said:


> I wasnt saying they cant kill the foxes, the point is about how much pain they are in....But the poor creature, after it was killed was put in a pile of other ones all skinned moving about in agony. It was dreadful. I was too shocked to be emotional. I only watched it to see how bad it was.


Evangeline, that video bears as much resemblance to "normal fur farm practice" as the film "Hostel" represents "normal going to Slovakia on holiday".

The other skinned animals were clean - not bloody - which says they were DEAD and their hearts had stopped beating when they were skinned. The skinned-alive animals were skinned alive because someone with an animal-rights agenda paid them to do it that way (instead of the *normal *skinning-a-dead-animal way) so that they could post a horrible shocking video like that, making people think that's how it's always done.


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Thought I'd covered that by mentioning 'em here:


but non animal crops are 5 times more yielding than meat... so its a waste to grow grass for cows when you could indeed grow carrots or wheat or whatever and get 5 times more food from the land!

the problem is we dont really care about the planet, and there is way too many people on it!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

ambyglam said:


> but non animal crops are 5 times more yielding than meat... so its a waste to grow grass for cows when you could indeed grow carrots or wheat or whatever and get 5 times more food from the land!


Untrue, Ambyglam.... because the caloric, nutritive and energy value of the meat is significantly higher than the vegetables. 



Lierre Keith said:


> More importantly, compare the nutrition in that pound of wheat against that pound of beef. The beef contains almost twice as many calories (592 vs. 339 per 100 grams). Calories are simply energy, which means the beef is providing substantially more....
> And there's more than simple energy: those beef calories contain more nutrients, especially essential protein and fat. The numbers on those are 21g vs. 13.7g and 8.55g vs 1.87g, respectively. It's also crucial to understand that the protein in the beef contains the full spectrum of necessary amino acids and is easy for humans to assimilate, while the protein in the wheat is both low-quality and largely inaccessible because it comes wrapped in indigestible cellulose.


Cattle/sheep/etc can also be raised on land that is near impossible to grow crops on - steep inclines, for example, that a combine harvester can't go up and down. And cattle can SHARE their pasture with wildlife instead of having to have the wildlife eradicated so it doesn't eat your crops, or simply by accidents of plowing and harvest.

There's a lovely steep field just down the road from my office. There's beef cattle up and down it on a regular basis - my colleague jokes that he's waiting for one to trip and roll downhill. There's also a little stream, which is home to ducks, froglets and toads, not to mention thrushes, blackbirds, starlings and more. Plow that up and use it for vegetable monocrops? NO.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> Evangeline, that video bears as much resemblance to "normal fur farm practice" as the film "Hostel" represents "normal going to Slovakia on holiday".


Hmmmmmmm, have you never been on a package holiday? :whistling2:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Mynki said:


> Hmmmmmmm, have you never been on a package holiday? :whistling2:


What good's a package holiday? I don't want to have to rush through things because we've got XYZ on the schedule.... much more fun to go on a roadtrip holiday.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> What good's a package holiday? I don't want to have to rush through things because we've got XYZ on the schedule.... much more fun to go on a roadtrip holiday.


I think you missed the joke.  :blush:

I deffo don't do package holidays!


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Untrue, Ambyglam.... because the caloric, nutritive and energy value of the meat is significantly higher than the vegetables.


calorific content is not relevant as it takes way more energy for your body to try and digest meat as it does other crops, and since the human body is only designed to eat 5% or less meat, it should not be that high up on our dietry intake anyway. The perfect source of protein is from an avacado as it contains the perfect balance of the essential amino acids plus the perfect balance of fats for human intake, and is waaaaaay more easily broken down and absorbed than any meat source. The only true meat that humans benefit from is fish, especially oily fish, as its far easier to digest and does not have the same cancer inducing qualities that red meat has, unfortunately humans do seem to have an amazing ability to overfish too!


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

ambyglam said:


> but non animal crops are 5 times more yielding than meat... so its a waste to grow grass for cows when you could indeed grow carrots or wheat or whatever and get 5 times more food from the land!


good thinking, we can add it to the grain mountains. Yeah; they're the things that the EU have because there is too much of the stuff to be used.
Why grow 5 times more food from the land if



> the problem is we dont really care about the planet, and there is way too many people on it!


 
there are too many people on the planet already?
If there are too many people on the planet and we've already got too much food to go around; why do you want to grow 5 times more?

Here's an idea... Go to Africa and cry them a river; oh and take some grain with you.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> What good's a package holiday? I don't want to have to rush through things because we've got XYZ on the schedule.... much more fun to go on a roadtrip holiday.


yeah but by the time you get there you're coming back.. Plus, have you ever tried to drive through Corfu??


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

Meko said:


> good thinking, we can add it to the grain mountains. Yeah; they're the things that the EU have because there is too much of the stuff to be used.
> Why grow 5 times more food from the land if
> 
> 
> ...


they wouldnt want it, african wheat is far superior to the awful stuff we have created in this country, which is why so many people have wheat allergies!

its not about creating too much food its about sustainability in the long run... which isnt going to happen cos we were too slow on the take up! Unfortunately the food and the wealth is not shared evenly, otherwise we would not have too much food in one country and starving people in another, but the world does not work on kindness... it works on money!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

ambyglam said:


> calorific content is not relevant as it takes way more energy for your body to try and digest meat as it does other crops,


Can you please provide a citation for this? I know I personally find carnivory a LOT easier on my digestion.



> and since the human body is only designed to eat 5% or less meat, it should not be that high up on our dietry intake anyway.


Our digestive system is remarkably similar to that of a dog, and very much less like the digestive system of a sheep. Like dogs - who are primarily carnivorous opportunistic omnivores - we have highly acid stomachs, do not digest cellulose.... we are not built to digest plants.



> The perfect source of protein is from an avacado as it contains the perfect balance of the essential amino acids


Avocados are missing the amino acid cysteine, and are low on phenylalanine, methionine and lysine. They are also not practical to grow outside of tropical climates.... oh, boy, let's slash-and-burn more rainforest to grow avocado orchards!



> does not have the same cancer inducing qualities that red meat has


OVERCOOKED and processed red meat may indeed have links to certain cancers (although I would like to see studies that eliminate the changes in modern diet to incorporate high quantities of sugars and highly processed foods).


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## Dixie19 (Oct 5, 2009)

Okay, now I am arse kissing, Ssthisto, teach me everything you know haha


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

ambyglam said:


> well it would be nice to see all these family businesses shut once people realise that we have our own skins to wear and do not need to kill a whole bunch of animals so you can look stupid!
> 
> *The only time fur looks good is on the animal it belongs to!*
> 
> and anyway this thread is about people selling fox tails to hang on stuff like handbags and scooters... who are the idiots that buy these things and why do they think it looks nice, the tail should be on the fox it belongs to!


Well said!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Mynki said:


> Many thousands of fly fisherman will want the fox tails for tieing their own flies. *You do know that hundreds of people are out every week killing foxes to protect livestock don't you?* Why not use their tails for fly tying? It makes perfect sense to me. Theres nothing unethical about it at all.
> 
> I would imagine the company if they bother to read your email will probably smile and think "not another townie" or something similar.
> 
> Why not contact the fox hunters who shoot the foxes, the anglers who use the tails to tie flies and the company selling the on ebay and tell them how you want to keep an exotic animal (Fennec fox) as a pet far removed from it's natural habitat as it could be and see how seriously they take you on matters such as animal welfare?


Then maybe they should look after their livestock better then!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

cloggers said:


> foxes are killed to protect livestock, there tails can be used
> foxes are rasied in captivity for their fur to be used,
> cows are raised to for their milk, some are killed to make my shoes and couch
> rats and mice are gassed so i can feed my snakes
> ...


How do we know this?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Dixie19 said:


> Okay, now I am arse kissing, Ssthisto, teach me everything you know haha


Everything I can teach you is summed up in the following:

1. Read voraciously - books, websites, newsgroups, forums. Read like you breathe - constantly and as though your life depends on it.
2. Remember what you read. Even if it floats around disconnected as a few key phrases, you will have enough to go on to do a quick bit of research when you need it.
3. Remember that Wikipedia is written by everyone and is not the be-all and end-all of facts. Some of it is outright lies.
4. When researching look for viewpoints on both sides of the argument, no matter how distasteful one side of the argument may be to you. Somewhere in the middle is where the truth sits.
5. Read things you disagree with and UNDERSTAND the opposing viewpoint inside and out. If you understand the opposing argument, you can counter it more effectively with your own.



Zoo-Man said:


> How do we know this?


Zoo-Man, it's been proven in the past that members of animal rights organisations have paid to have atrocities like that committed - and the raccoon-dog skinning video is "staged" in several ways. If you WATCH it - critically and trying to control your gag reflex - there are inconsistencies and things that just don't add up (like "bloody live-skinned raccoon-dog on top of a pile of clean, unbloodied dead-skinned ones").

Now, I'm NOT arguing that there are never horrifically cruel things done in any trade to do with animals - there quite clearly are - but animal-rights groups have dirtier hands than their stated mission should allow.


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## Corsetts (Dec 8, 2008)

Ssthisto, thanks for your informative posts.

I was shown *that* video a little while ago and was deeply disturbed by it and joined PETA instantly.
The thought that they may have (even indirectly) staged it is absolutely sickening.
I'm going to do some more research on this myself before deciding where to go with it, but there's not a hope in hell of me supporting an organisation that could even contemplate such a barbaric act.

I wish I'd thought more about it at the time, no matter what sort of heartless :censor: the fur farm workers are, it'd simply make the job harder if nothing else.

I personally have no issue with animals being farmed for meat, as long as it's done truly humanely.
But, people need to appreciate that the ethical, responsible raising of meat is expensive and that the "two for a fiver" mentality needs to be stamped out.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I only wish more people would take the time and effort to learn things like you do Ssthisto  

I am open to all views on meat eating, leather wearing, fox tail fishing, veggie loving kind of lifestyles.

What I can't abide personally, is someone trying to force thier views down your throat! Ambyglam - you may be mortified by the fact that fox tails are being sold, you may be sickened by the fact that in some countries, things like foxes are used as a means of survival - the meat, fur, bones etc. You may feel saddened that a forum full of animal lovers photograph thier pet bunnies whilst having rabbit stew for tea but there is very little to be done about it.

We eat meat as a species simple really. If you make the conscious choice to remove animal produce and by-products from your lifestyle then all power to you as that is your choice. If Meko chooses to buy a fox-tail keyring to dangle from his pocket with pride then that is HIS choice. Neither are right nor wrong.

I personally don't wear fur. I find it to be a fashion "fabric" that big designers dictate as being suitable for wear. As a keen ( but also ex  ) corsetier and dressmaker, I understand how the fashion world rules right through to what Primark sell but provided it is sourced ethically then if someone else chooses to don thier Gucci fur stole for a dinner party then all power to them too as they made thier own choice.

There is so much more to life than forum stresses over fox tails and to be fair, I can think of far more barbaric things happening in the world than animal farming for fashion/food/furniture. Take a look at forced female castration in some African countries, the lady who was jailed because she got gang-raped in India - they are the true crimes of the human race IMO


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> How do we know this?


because the only time we ever see or hear about any extreme animal cruelty in the 'trade' is when it's an animal activist group who have just happened to secretly film it. 
There's never anything in the news where journalists have filmed it, or any of the licensing boards; it's always the extremists who manage to find out where it happens.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> Then maybe they should look after their livestock better then!


LMFAO!!! Like getting sheep hill farmers to ensure that hundreds of pro active people are out every week shooting foxes to control their numbers perhaps!!!!

My mate owns a 9,000 acre sheep farm in the scotish lowlands. He raises several hundred sheep every year. The new born lambs are sought out at all hours, stuck in a trailer attached to his quad and taken to holding pens. Pretty standard practise for a Uk sheep farmer. Foxes kill around 30 lambs on his patch per year. Badgers also take a handfull. Even the odd raptor and corvid kill his sheep. Have you ever seen a pregnant sheep thats fallen over and can't get up, get "unzipped" and have it's eyes pecked out by crows? It's not particularly pleasant as it doesn't die very quickly. And I can't imagine the suffering involved as the crows are opening up the sheep as if gutting the animal.

So if you have any ideas how these guys can protect their stock over such large and remote areas I'd love to hear them almost as much as the farmers would! It's a little bit different to keeping a pair of monkeys in a glorified rabbit hutch in a back bedroom you know.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> Can you please provide a citation for this? I know I personally find carnivory a LOT easier on my digestion.


Interesting. My digestion is the opposite. I think what Ambyglam is trying to say (But not getting the point across particularly well) is the environmental impact that producing meat has when compared to farming grains etc.

It's the amount of carbon (energy, not totally sure of a good word) used to produce say 1000 calories of beef to 1000 calories of wheat that takes several times more energy to produce. yes there are areas which are only suited to producing lamb etc and not crops, but there are many environmentally unfriendly ranches that could be better used. I've read more than one study on the subject but can't remember where it was, I'll try and dig one out later. So Ambyglam has a point to some extent.

The problem is, roast leg of lamb, rare venison fillets or even a bacon buttie taste too damned good to switch to Quorn etc....... :whistling2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Mynki said:


> LMFAO!!! Like getting sheep hill farmers to ensure that hundreds of pro active people are out every week shooting foxes to control their numbers perhaps!!!!
> 
> My mate owns a 9,000 acre sheep farm in the scotish lowlands. He raises several hundred sheep every year. The new born lambs are sought out at all hours, stuck in a trailer attached to his quad and taken to holding pens. Pretty standard practise for a Uk sheep farmer. Foxes kill around 30 lambs on his patch per year. Badgers also take a handfull. Even the odd raptor and corvid kill his sheep. Have you ever seen a pregnant sheep thats fallen over and can't get up, get "unzipped" and have it's eyes pecked out by crows? It's not particularly pleasant as it doesn't die very quickly. And I can't imagine the suffering involved as the crows are opening up the sheep as if gutting the animal.
> 
> So if you have any ideas how these guys can protect their stock over such large and remote areas I'd love to hear them almost as much as the farmers would! *It's a little bit different to keeping a pair of monkeys in a glorified rabbit hutch in a back bedroom you know.*


Why? Who does this??? :gasp:


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> Why? Who does this??? :gasp:


Who knows? Who cares? But can you enlighten the world as to how farmers can better protect their stock? I'm intrigued!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Mynki said:


> Interesting. My digestion is the opposite. I think what Ambyglam is trying to say (But not getting the point across particularly well) is the environmental impact that producing meat has when compared to farming grains etc.


All depends on where you're measuring the impact, too - growing annual monocrops instead of perennial polycrops (i.e. growing grain or soy instead of growing multiple species of edible plants and animals on one field) has a HUGE effect on the environment, as does irrigation.

A hundred pounds of avocados, shipped from the tropics where they grow, is likely to be less ecologically friendly (from clear-cutting to create the orchard, to food-miles) than a hundred pounds of locally-raised chicken or lamb.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> All depends on where you're measuring the impact, too - growing annual monocrops instead of perennial polycrops (i.e. growing grain or soy instead of growing multiple species of edible plants and animals on one field) has a HUGE effect on the environment, as does irrigation.
> 
> A hundred pounds of avocados, shipped from the tropics where they grow, is likely to be less ecologically friendly (from clear-cutting to create the orchard, to food-miles) than a hundred pounds of locally-raised chicken or lamb.


That works both ways. Many supermarkets sell New Zealand lamb and Uk produced bread. Overall meat products are more environmentally damaging than vegetable crops.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Mynki said:


> Who knows? Who cares? But can you enlighten the world as to how farmers can better protect their stock? I'm intrigued!


Well I presume you care as it was you who brought up monkeys being kept in a glorified rabbit hutch! And for your information,my marmosets have never seen a rabbit hutch, glorified or otherwise, in their lives, so where did you get that idea from? 

I was under the impression that most sheep farmers brought their pregnant ewes inside or into pens closer to teh farmhouse prior to lambing. Mind you, thinking about it again, I have personal experience of a farmer who's sheep were left to lamb in the fields. We were sick of returning lambs who had got through the fencing & couldn't get back to their mums.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> Well I presume you care as it was you who brought up monkeys being kept in a glorified rabbit hutch! And for your information,my marmosets have never seen a rabbit hutch, glorified or otherwise, in their lives, so where did you get that idea from?


Hmmm, not sure why you think this was aimed at you. But it's the exotic animal section of the forum. People keep monkeys and other creatures in cages in their back bedrooms, spare rooms etc don't they? Glorified rabbit hutch is a tongue in cheek description.



Zoo-Man said:


> I was under the impression that most sheep farmers brought their pregnant ewes inside or into pens closer to teh farmhouse prior to lambing. Mind you, thinking about it again, I have personal experience of a farmer who's sheep were left to lamb in the fields. We were sick of returning lambs who had got through the fencing & couldn't get back to their mums.


 
Anyways, lambs were just an example. We could have mentioned poultry farmers etc. So in short, you've no idea then?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Mynki said:


> Hmmm, not sure why you think this was aimed at you. But it's the exotic animal section of the forum. People keep monkeys and other creatures in cages in their back bedrooms, spare rooms etc don't they? Glorified rabbit hutch is a tongue in cheek description.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well the winking smilie at the end of your comment made me think it was aimed at me, as it would to many members Im sure.

And when I replied to your post last night my initial thought was of poultry keepers & their complaints of foxes getting into theri pens & taking their birds. 

If a sheep farmer was having particular trouble with foxes, they could get a Llama to live with & help protect their flock.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> If a sheep farmer was having particular trouble with foxes, they could get a Llama to live with & help protect their flock.


And how good a job would a llama do on my mates 9000 acre sheep farm? Is the terrain suitable to keep a llama on there? Scottish hillsides get pretty chilly you know! And how would it do against the badgers, corvids and raptors?


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

i admit iv never heard of using a lama except in theory but i know a lot of sheep farmers (admitidly none on the 9000 acre scale) who swear by billy goats as a predator deterant, get a big enough one and they will take on virtualy anything. not sure how they'd fair against a bird of prey as the ones that could take a lamb arnt overly common in lancashire/yorkshire :lol2:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Mynki said:


> And how good a job would a llama do on my mates 9000 acre sheep farm? Is the terrain suitable to keep a llama on there? Scottish hillsides get pretty chilly you know! And how would it do against the badgers, corvids and raptors?


Chances are the llama would do fairly well - Andean mountain hillsides also get pretty Chile


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> Chances are the llama would do fairly well - Andean mountain hillsides also get pretty Chile


Indeed. But how good a job in protecting hundreds of sheep from the many foxes and other predators was what I was getting at.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Mynki said:


> Indeed. But how good a job in protecting hundreds of sheep from the many foxes and other predators was what I was getting at.


Then you need more llamas.... here's a llama, there's a llama, and another little llama.... of course, me personally, I don't see the point in sheep at all, so I'd just have a bunch of llamas.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> Then you need more llamas.... here's a llama, there's a llama, and another little llama.... of course, me personally, I don't see the point in sheep at all, so I'd just have a bunch of llamas.


Hmmm, roast lamb with garlic and rosemary, served with roast potatoes and onion gravy? I'm not sure if llama make good eating, but I doubt there as good as roast lamb!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Mynki said:


> And how good a job would a llama do on my mates 9000 acre sheep farm? Is the terrain suitable to keep a llama on there? Scottish hillsides get pretty chilly you know! And how would it do against the badgers, corvids and raptors?


Llamas originate from the mountainous regions of Chile, Peru, etc so they would fare fine with the temperatures actually! And it would be a brave badger to try to tackle an angry Llama! Granted the birds would not be seen as a threat by a Llama.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> Llamas originate from the mountainous regions of Chile, Peru, etc so they would fare fine with the temperatures actually! And it would be a brave badger to try to tackle an angry Llama! Granted the birds would not be seen as a threat by a Llama.


 
To be fair, sheep being killed by corvids is rare, raptors are not a major problem either. Badgers have a nasty habit of removing the heads of small lambs, but this isn't as common as fox kills.

I think you have to agree on a large, remote area llamas would be ineffective in stopping fox attacks on new born lambs. It's an impractical solution for real commercial farmers. It may work in a small field, but I know how much llamas cost and how much money there is, or more correctly, is not to be made in sheep farming. I'll take a pic of the area when I'm next up there and you'll see how remote it is!

The only realistic way is to be proactive and eliminate, to the best of your ability the natural predators. So I think you're unfair to criticise those who employ pest control. 

Foxes are not the cute, cuddly creatures your average townie perceives them to be. I've helped collect 12 dead lambs all less than 2 days old from my mates farm. Yet I've also been told by more than one person that foxes don't kill lambs! And one fool, even tried to tell me that it was impossible because the fox is smaller than a lamb.


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## RachieValo (Mar 24, 2010)

tbh i find that awful


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Mynki said:


> To be fair, sheep being killed by corvids is rare, raptors are not a major problem either. Badgers have a nasty habit of removing the heads of small lambs, but this isn't as common as fox kills.
> 
> I think you have to agree on a large, remote area llamas would be ineffective in stopping fox attacks on new born lambs. It's an impractical solution for real commercial farmers. It may work in a small field, but I know how much llamas cost and how much money there is, or more correctly, is not to be made in sheep farming. I'll take a pic of the area when I'm next up there and you'll see how remote it is!
> 
> ...


I suppose on a vast plot of land, using a Llama to protect a flock of sheep woudl be less effective, but I was just putting it out as an example. Hug? :lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

lamas?:whistling2:


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> I suppose on a vast plot of land, using a Llama to protect a flock of sheep woudl be less effective, but I was just putting it out as an example. Hug? :lol2:


Hugs.

I've read some shockingly ignorant views on foxes in my time, which is why I can get a bit passionate about the need for fox control at times. Don't take it personally!

All the best
Mynki


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## benjo (Oct 31, 2007)

this thread has gone off topic, all im going to say is:

meat tastes good, never have been a grain person (only for bread ) 

but been a vegan or not, against animals been killed for food ect.. just think:

been against animals been killed for food/pest control ect.. your saying youd rather have wild mice/rats/bats/birds and every other wild animal going walk/sleep/pee/poo/mate and/or LIVE on the crops/storage facilitys

same for animals: i wouldnt want roaches/flys/mice/rats and what not all over my juicy chicken.

you cant say one thing but would do it your self.. its 100% hypocritical.. 

if your vegan and against meat.. your saying you would let rats/mice ect live in your house, and on your food/bed everywhere?

i think people take stuff a bit extreme, like someones already said there are [email protected]@@@@s out there that do shoot animals about 50 times before it dies, some do openly skin live animals, some do let animals live in a very cruddy cage.. its life.. i dont agree with it but what are you going to do? fly around the world and bring them all home? i would if i had the money/house! but my point is stop saying "dont kill animals!" when you'd kill rats/mice and/or other pests in your home.


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