# Phoenix worm breeding caresheet..



## LoveForLizards

*Housing and substrate:*
Pheonix worms/Black soldier flys do best in tall housing as opposed to shallow housing so things like a vase, cookie jar or a small bathroom works well. The flys should have sticks and twigs in the top of the enclosure to allow for resting and sleeping. 
Substrate should be made up of old leaves, compost and if possible animal such as horse and cow manure (avoid the smell! leave it out to dry then just moisten a small part of the underneath for them to eat).
*
Food and water:*
The larvae will eat old leaves and animal manure if kept as compost. They may also eat vegetable scraps if given the option and will gut load of fruits. 
They dont generally need water however some like to hang up leaves of lettuce for the adults to drink water from. I will add here, whilst the Flys do have a mouth they are not made for eating, it is purely for drinking, so there is no need to give them food. 

*Temperature and humidity:*
Phoenix worms do best at 15-20C however the flys are best at 12-15C, the best way to maintain these temps is to use a tall enclosure, keep it in a cool-ish room and have a heat mat on the bottom for the worms so only a little amount of the heat rises to the top for the flys but all of them are kept at the right temperature. Humidity isnt very important at all - best kept below 50% however the pupae's will appreciate being taken out and put into a more humid (60-70%) tub until close to "hatching".
*
Breeding:*
Hardly anything is needed for breeding, just male + female flys and somewhere for them to lay eggs. The best thing for this is to get a mug, put some organic compost into it and add water, compress it as much as possible and leave it there for a minute or two and compress again, keep doing this until you cant compress it anymore, once done turn it out of the mug and put into the enclosure on the floor or get some animal manure and leave it out on the bottom, you are more likely to have more sucess with the animal manure. And then probably the most important thing - room! The flys need to be able to fly for a foot or two as they mate whilst flying, the good thing is they dont a massive amount of room as it is over in with seconds. 

*Life Cycle:*

Adult/Fly: Black Soldier Fly's are 15-20mm long and have dusty-grey wings. Males have a bronze coloured abdomen and females have 2 segements of the "abdomen" that are red in colour.

Egg: Eggs are 1mm long and are layed in clusts of 300-500 and have a 96% hatch rate. 

Larvae/Pheonix Worms: Larvae of the Black Soldier Fly otherwise known as the Phoenix worm are small, plump worms that go through a series of "instars" before turning to pupae, the last instar being a red/brown colour. Usually growing up to about 18mm they make a good livefood. 

Pupae: The pupa develops within the darkened skin of the last larval instar. The pupa is roughly 1/3 the length of the puparium.

*Generaly maintanence:*
Nothing really is needed apart from if feeding veggies removing any that are old/mouldy. Just keep them fed and happy and all should be fine.


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## Pythonman14

can someone sticky this PLEASE.........:notworthy:

THANK YOU........................


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## LoveForLizards

: victory:: victory:


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## ladybird

Can you add a bit about harvesting the worms from their manure/compost?


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## LoveForLizards

I can't add to the original post so here ya go:

Generally harvesting the worms is pretty easy, kinda like meal worms ie. just moving over subtrate/food/shaking food items and picking out the worms. The most difficult part is avoiding being swarmed by the flys or letting loads of the flys loose! One way to do it is to take of what ever it is you use to attach the mesh to the top of the enclosure then quickly pick it up at the same time as closing the bottom of it. Or use a "pooter". Alternatively go for the "franken-tub". :lol2: Put the enclosure inside a tub, cut a hole in the side then tape the top of a washing-up glove to the hole, then push the glove into the box, take the top off the enclosure and place it down then shuffle through the substrate and pick out the worms, take the insect mesh and put it back on the enclosure. Put in a piece of fly tape and until you are confident dont take the top off the tub and get the worms out. The pooter is by far the best option though!


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## InternetReptile

Thought they could be fed an exclusively grain diet as the maggots will eat just about anything? May be that I am entirely wrong, but that was the impression I got from the research I have done.

If that is right, surely that is much more hygienic than using manure...


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## LoveForLizards

GeckoMorphs said:


> Thought they could be fed an exclusively grain diet as the maggots will eat just about anything? May be that I am entirely wrong, but that was the impression I got from the research I have done.
> 
> If that is right, surely that is much more hygienic than using manure...


I found they did eat grains but they died after a very short time and wouldnt breed and when they did it was extremely slow.


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## InternetReptile

LoveForLizards said:


> I found they did eat grains but they died after a very short time and wouldnt breed and when they did it was extremely slow.


I see. That's a shame as I was contemplating giving it a go.. ah well never mind; luckily my beardie went off them after two days of eating everyone I put in front of him... lol. Fussy thing... so I guess there is no urgency in it after all. 

I wonder if there is anything else they can be fed that won't anger the girlfriend quite so much as the thought of flies and manure. ?


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## LoveForLizards

GeckoMorphs said:


> I wonder if there is anything else they can be fed that won't anger the girlfriend quite so much as the thought of flies and manure. ?


Hmm...give me 20 minutes and I might have an answer :2thumb:


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## LoveForLizards

Raaaaaawr! Lol

Here ya go, just tried this and it worked out pretty well:

1 cup - instant oats
1 cup - bran or wheat
Half cup - baked, grated/blended veggies
2 TBSP - honey
1/3 cup - boiled, extremely fine cut or blended cooked meats
1 cup - rice puffs

Mix everything together in a bowl and add boiling water until the mix is in a cookie dough consistency, make into small cubes/balls and put on a baking tray, bake in the oven on 225C until golden-brown, turn oven off and leave in oven until cold so they harden up, use instant oats as a substrate and just place this ontop for the larvae to eat. Also I forgot to add, if anybody wants to try breeding phoenix worms and has a rabbit - use rabbit poop for substrate/food. : victory:


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## InternetReptile

LoveForLizards said:


> Raaaaaawr! Lol
> 
> Here ya go, just tried this and it worked out pretty well:
> 
> 1 cup - instant oats
> 1 cup - bran or wheat
> Half cup - baked, grated/blended veggies
> 2 TBSP - honey
> 1/3 cup - boiled, extremely fine cut or blended cooked meats
> 1 cup - rice puffs
> 
> Mix everything together in a bowl and add boiling water until the mix is in a cookie dough consistency, make into small cubes/balls and put on a baking tray, bake in the oven on 225C until golden-brown, turn oven off and leave in oven until cold so they harden up, use instant oats as a substrate and just place this ontop for the larvae to eat. Also I forgot to add, if anybody wants to try breeding phoenix worms and has a rabbit - use rabbit poop for substrate/food. : victory:


63 minutes! You lose! :lol2: Only joking.
I guess that may well be worth a try. Can't beleive how much they cost to buy considering what they are. 

Looking forward to hearing how people get on with the breeding efforts.


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## Blaptica

Have you (loveforlizards) managed to breed them repeatly using the method you describe ? I bred them last year in good quantities using quite a different method. At times I was harvesting a pint volume quantity a day. This is after experimenting with them for two years

Before anybody suggests making this "sticky" I sugest you try it. I am guessing nobody else will have suceeded following this method, since in my opinion there is a couple of very serious mistakes in the suggested method. 

If you think I being over cynical, if its that easy why are they still being imported from the US, and why are they so expensive?? !! Wouldn't one of the many livefood companies be breeding them and selling them at a price comparable to the more commonly available livefood ?


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## InternetReptile

What have you had success doing then?



Blaptica said:


> Have you (loveforlizards) managed to breed them repeatly using the method you describe ? I bred them last year in good quantities using quite a different method. At times I was harvesting a pint volume quantity a day. This is after experimenting with them for two years
> 
> Before anybody suggests making this "sticky" I sugest you try it. I am guessing nobody else will have suceeded following this method, since in my opinion there is a couple of very serious mistakes in the suggested method.
> 
> If you think I being over cynical, if its that easy why are they still being imported from the US, and why are they so expensive?? !! Wouldn't one of the many livefood companies be breeding them and selling them at a price comparable to the more commonly available livefood ?


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## LoveForLizards

Yes please do tell 

I used this method for a year and was harvesting every few days, dont ask me how much as it was all put into a bucket and given to a local petstore, I don't use them so it was just purely an experiment and thats how I found worked. *shrugs*


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## LoveForLizards

Blaptica said:


> If you think I being over cynical, if its that easy why are they still being imported from the US, and why are they so expensive?? !! Wouldn't one of the many livefood companies be breeding them and selling them at a price comparable to the more commonly available livefood ?


Not a clue, I just found this worked well for me so decided to post it up as there appeared to be some interest in these as feeders!


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## Blaptica

I make my living in the reptile trade and breed alot of reptiles (mainly lizards). I breed all of my own live food for my breeder lizards. I started experimenting with soldier flies because they potentially are the most productive livefood available. That is because they have a very quick life cycle (typical with flies) and productive, very high numbers of eggs in a short time. Typically up to 900 apparently, in around 9 days before they die. That is the good news. 

The bad news is that they are difficult to breed in captivity compared to crickets, mealworms, giant mealworms, locusts or any other commercially available breeder insect. That is why they are so expensive. I am planning this year to increase production to the point where they could be hopefully available commercially in the Uk at more reasonable prices. That is the plan anyhow. It might take a couple of years to get right or I might fail to breed them in suffient quanties, only time will tell. So sorry, but for commercial reasons I am not going to explain how I do it. But what I will say is that I think that breeding them is not practical for hobby reptile keepers. I had to spend quite a lot of money investing in a set up to get my pint a day ! I will need to spend a lot lot more to do it commercially.

One thing I will say though is about the temps required for the flies to breed. The man who is behind the Trade marked "phoenix worm" spent many years while working at a university researching this fly. He wrote several papers about it which I have. He states that he only ever saw flies mating at temperatures at 28c or above. This backs up what I have found. They will even breed well with temperatures up to 40c. This species is naturally found in warm climates ! So I am mystified when I read at the beginning of this thread that the flies breed at 12-15c. In my experience this is not possible.

Also I have some pet donkeys which produce alot of manure. I would imagine this manure is very similiar to horse manure. But soldier flies show no interest in it whatsoever. But they will breed in pig, chicken or even human manure apparently. I think that they only show interest in the manure of species with a high protein content in the diet (= high nitrogen levels in the manure). Therefore I doubt they will show any interest in any equine manure


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## moonstruck

I thought this was a very good thread. But i'm now totally confused. 

If it's so difficult, why has loveforlizards suceeded for a year?

Can I ask if your both actually using "phoenix worms" or one just using "black soldier flys larvae" 

I do know they are the same thing, but phoenix worms come from a particular company, so will be kept in particular conditions... could that actually affect things so greatly?


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## LoveForLizards

Yes, I am confused aswell. I found they bred better at lower temperatures (under 20C) :S

I have been breeding black soldier flys (the larvae commonly called Phoenix Worms)


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## moonstruck

"phoenix worms" is a company trademark name thingy of some sort isn't it?

so, phoenix worm, refers to a black soldier fly larvae from a particular company... they are supposed to be bred in special highly nutritional ways....

if your breeding black soldier fly larvae which are not from that company, it *might* give some sort of explanation - that companys could be accustomed to certain conditions


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## LoveForLizards

I don't know! I was always told that Black Soldier Fly larvae was Phoenix Worms? At least thats what the rep. breeder said? Either way, Phoenix worms or not, black soldier fly larvae seem to be a good live food for smal lizards Lol.


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## moonstruck

no no sorry, it's me getting you confused

phoenix worms_ are _black soldier fly larvae

*but as far as i'm aware, the actual "phoenix worms" are produced by an american company, it's just a trade name they've given them to make them more appealing basically, and because they raise them in a particular way.*

so _not all _black soldier fly larvae are phoenix worms....


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## LoveForLizards

Dont worry, it doesnt take a lot to confuse me Lol

I get it now, thanks.


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## Blaptica

Yep moonstruck is totally correct in what she/he says.

I have can think of four reasons why we are reporting breeding using very different methods.

1 I am lying
2 LFS is lying.

straightaway I would say that either is unlikely to be the case.

3 Is it possible that LFS started with soldier flies, but another species that looks similiar to BSF got in the culture and that is what LFS is breeding ? BSF larvae look very similiar to other fly larvae. Though I think the "peg" at the end of the body is very distinctive in the larvae. Maybe LFS could post some pics of the flies and the larvae they are breeding ?

4 The BSF have adapted to the different conditions. As in normal darwinian selection the flies/larvae that coped with cold conditions were the ones that bred and produced more BSF that were more tolerant to the cold. But still I would say 12-15c is just too cold for BSF but 20c would be ok for houseflies !

I live in Portugal not the UK. The last couple of weeks have seen daytime temps around 14-20c but I have not seen any flies yet. I should explain BSF are now found wild outside of the US. I know they are in both Southern Europe WHERE IT IS WARM !!! and also in Australia. The wild flies will not emerge here until at least the last part of April when temps are in the high 20's. They are most frequently seen here in the middle of summer when temps are in the 30's. This is when my captive ones do best too. The BSF naturally hibernate as pupae in the soil and that is what mine are now doing. I have no reason to breed them right now.


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## LoveForLizards

They are definitly BSF. I got given a tub of phoenix worms and was asked to breed them and they are in a box in a box in a box so the chances of anything else getting in there without me putting it in there is almost 0. 
The whole thing is confusing me. :blush: Either that or I have read the temps wrong and they are 25-27C/35-37C ?
I will get a new thermometer soon and take a look at the temps as I took it out soon after sorting the temps out because it got in the way. But surely I would have noticed if it was higher then I thougt it was...


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## Blaptica

The temperature in the breeding set up should be at least that of the room temp. 12-15c would make it a very cold house ! Most people are comfortable at around 18c or a little higher. Off subject a little I know but I feel strongly that every reptile keeper needs a simple digital thermomer. Those cheap dial or strip ones cannot be relied upon to give accurate readings. Spending £12-13 on a digital one would be in my view a good investment.


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## LoveForLizards

Blaptica said:


> The temperature in the breeding set up should be at least that of the room temp. 12-15c would make it a very cold house ! Most people are comfortable at around 18c or a little higher. Off subject a little I know but I feel strongly that every reptile keeper needs a simple digital thermomer. Those cheap dial or strip ones cannot be relied upon to give accurate readings. Spending £12-13 on a digital one would be in my view a good investment.


Since she has gone out now, I will just say she hasnt got any reptiles therefore doesnt keep digital thermometers in the house, they are bred for a local breeder  



(Yes, I know this post is probably confusing...look at the signature : victory: )


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## Blaptica

So if you want to breed soldier flies the best temps for the flies are 12-15c, or it might be 25-27c, or it might be 35-37c ?

Maybe you need to use two different user names ?


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## RutgerDijkstra

Hi, i cant help but notice that u seem to have selfbreeding BSF's  
i am realy curious to how ur setup is build, i would like it if u posted or send me some pic's of it.. and also, did u get a fix on the temp. your breeding at?
Oh, and with howmany did u start out with? and with the Phoenix worm cups or just a bag of BSF larvea?

Im sorry for all the questions but these seem like the perfect feederinsect but they are to expensive for me to keep buying, so i would love to breed them..


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## LoveForLizards

Will try get some pics once I get my camera back and find the lead for the laptop. 
The temps are definitely right on the first page, I used a digi thermometer and the temps were showing up th same give or take 1 or 2 C. Go figure!
I started out with roughly 80 larvae/phoenix worms, kept them in the conditions I was asked to and they started breeding from there.


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## RutgerDijkstra

ah oke thank you, and did u use the branded "phoenix worms" (the ones from the black plastic box, that cost 9.5 euro per 100) cause im thinking that "phoenix worms" may have bin treated so they dont become flies and just die when they reach that stage.. 

so does anyone know of actual phoenix worms becomming flies? i never heard someone report that..


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## LoveForLizards

RutgerDijkstra said:


> ah oke thank you, and did u use the branded "phoenix worms" (the ones from the black plastic box, that cost 9.5 euro per 100) cause im thinking that "phoenix worms" may have bin treated so they dont become flies and just die when they reach that stage..
> 
> so does anyone know of actual phoenix worms becomming flies? i never heard someone report that..


The person I breed for had a pot of the branded Phoenix Worms, she got 4 BSF's from them, they layed eggs, she got BSF larvae/phoenix worms and then gave them to me, told me watch she did with the then I did the same and now they are breeding pretty danged well.


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## RutgerDijkstra

wow, only 4 out of a 100.. looks like they did try to stop them reaching fly stage  i think ill just buy 2 cups and try to copy your setup when u post the pictures


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## LoveForLizards

RutgerDijkstra said:


> wow, only 4 out of a 100.. looks like they did try to stop them reaching fly stage  i think ill just buy 2 cups and try to copy your setup when u post the pictures


Yup! Will try get some pics tonight - I might actually have some from when I started off with the empty setup so you can see it better and I dont have to get swarmed by BSF's :lol2:


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## RutgerDijkstra

And? did u get/find some nice pics?

sorry for being so hasty and stuff  but im kinda excited about trying to breed them and wanna start asap


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## Blaptica

The first and only time I bought Phoenix worms they produced flies without problems.


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## LoveForLizards

Pics of the setups and a few of the flys, the flash bounced off the outer tub so the fly pics aren't V. good either :devil:















































































: victory:


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## Blaptica

Am I the only one who can't see any pics ?


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## RutgerDijkstra

No, i think she just posted allot of "space"'s.. 
please post the pics


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## LoveForLizards

I have posted the pics?

Try again with new pics hold on.....


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## LoveForLizards

Can I email these pics to anyone to upload to photobucket and post coz snapfish pics are either not showing up or showing "the red X" and photobucket wont let me upload 'cause I don't have the new java upload/page cannot send inscirption etc?


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## froggsong

I apologize for replying to this older thread, but I must say, BSF larvae breed very well in simple table scraps and manure is not necessary. BSF do NOT lay their eggs in manure, scraps, etc, they lay eggs ABOVE a suitable site for the larvae. You do not need to prepare foods for the larvae, just give them your table scraps daily (including the meat, they will eat it before it can even begin to smell bad). 

In suitable conditions, supplemental heat for BSF is not necessary, as they will produce alot of heat themselves. However, since you guys are in the UK and have lower temps than we do in the US, simply insulating the container should allow for heat retention. 

At colder temps, the life cycle will slow. They will not eat as much, and they will take longer to grow (similar to the way mealies slow down when kept in the fridge). At higher temps the life cycle will be faster.

BSF are beginning to be used extensively in composting in the US, because they break down food scraps more quickly than composting worms, and the resulting compost can be fed to the worms to be further broken down. I suggest that anyone researching these worms check out this link: Black Soldier Fly Blog - Bio-Composting with Black Soldier Fly Grubs – Responsible, Fascinating and Simple. This is not geared towards reptile keepers, but has alot of good info. You might also do a search and include the term "vermicomposting". 

BSF larvae are also "self-harvesting" at the largest stage. When they are ready to pupate, they migrate from the container to find a suitable place to turn into a fly. If you include ramps or tubes in your setup, they will simply crawl up and out into a tub for you to pull them out and feed them off, already clean and dry. You can set some aside to allow them to become flies. 

Now, I will admit that I have yet to start a culture with these flies (due to the cost of even a small amount of them), however, I have been researching them for over a year, and there are alot of people having great results breeding them on accident here in America. I realize that it is warmer here, but in an indoor system such as most hobbyists would keep, there should be no problem breeding them in suitable numbers.

I don't think that this breeding info is completely accurate, and I don't think that it does these feeders justice. They are high in protein and calcium and can be used as a staple (but should be fed as part of a varied diet), eliminating the need to dust other feeders with calcium.

I hope that people don't get put off of attempting to culture these critters because of the confusion in this thread.

Good luck with all of your herping endeavors.


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## Dragon Farm

I would agree with the vast majority of what you say. But what you are talking about really is the raising of larvae which is easy. If you live in southern parts of the US or Europe then wild BSF will lay eggs near table scraps as you described. BUT try breeding BSF in captive conditions even when you are in the right climate range is very difficult. I don't believe its possible in the conditions described here. Please try it and let me know how you get on ! I tried it again this year quite by accident in a cage designed for chameleons kept outdoors with complete failure. A few metres away from that cage I have a large bucket with zillions of larvae from eggs laid by wild black soldier flies !


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## LFG

Anyone made any progress with these in the UK or know of a source of some?


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## butterworms

We are currently breeding up our own stocks, and can provide biopod+ for breeding purposes if anyone is interested.

Thanks

Lizard Lunch


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## vukic

*black soldier flies - food/manure*

if these guys require manure/ animal byproducts, would it be possible to use the excrement from your herp enclosures? after all you fish it out anyway.... and it's probably got an amount of protein in, else why would you need to breed these???:lol2:


sorry to reopen an old thread but there's so little info about this on google.....


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## Slashware

butterworms said:


> We are currently breeding up our own stocks, and can provide biopod+ for breeding purposes if anyone is interested.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Lizard Lunch


 are you aware that google is posting 
*Warning - visiting this web site may harm your computer!*

when you search for your site?


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## butterworms

Thanks for advising us of this.

The site was hacked, and it should now all be fixed....and live again.


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## Pyrite

I am buying a 100grams of calci-worms and going to try and breed and see what I get although I am a little discouraged from this thread from all the confusion and it sounds quite hard and complicated even though some might say it's simple.

My country is located very close to the equator so I am guessing just leaving them in my room is enough.

What I am going to do is place some left over cricket poop/crushed rabbit feed and oats in a tub, put some small egg cartons and then just dump the worms in and see what I'll end up with.

Hopefully something will work.

I've failed at breeding many times, I have tried with mealworms, crickets and mice and always ended up with nothing.

I am so sick of buying food for my dragon all the time. It's so expensive.


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