# What type of Enigma? (still confused...)



## Morphene

I asked in another thread about what type of Enigma 'mango' is?
'funky1' ID'd him as:

*Jungle Tangerine Tremper Albino Enigma Leopard Gecko* 


I googled it & found this:​ 






 

From here > Leopard Geckos - Enigma Projects - ACReptiles.com​ 

BUT Mangos eyes are completely different?​ 






 

Here's a photo of the nose again:​ 






 

These photos are not recent, but I wouldn't have thought his eyes would have completely changed colour (pink/red)​ 

Even the body pattern to the above photo is not te same? (not doubting 'funky1' as he probably knows more than me)​ 







 


.​


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## GlasgowGecko

I would agree with Funky on all but one point I think, for me the 'Enigma' trait over-rides the Jungle but this I suspect is a matter of opinion.

With combination morphs, and especially combinations which include 'Enigma', there is no 'type specimen', and by this I mean the picture you have googled does not show the default patterning, because this doesn't exist. The 'Enigma' trait works differently in different individuals which explains the variation between the two pictures. 

Andy


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## Morphene

GlasgowGecko said:


> I would agree with Funky on all but one point I think, for me the 'Enigma' trait over-rides the Jungle but this I suspect is a matter of opinion.
> 
> With combination morphs, and especially combinations which include 'Enigma', there is no 'type specimen', and by this I mean the picture you have googled does not show the default patterning, because this doesn't exist. The 'Enigma' trait works differently in different individuals which explains the variation between the two pictures.
> 
> Andy


I see what you mean & I agree with the 'Enigma' part regarding patterning & overall appearance.

The eyes just don't look how I would have expected an 'Albino' to look - they're brown?

I'm not sure how much the Enigma gene would affect the eyes in terms of manipulating the colour/appearance.


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## MrMike

Have you got a pic of the eyes? Enigma can drastically change the colour and "patterning" of the eye.


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## Morphene

MrMike said:


> Have you got a pic of the eyes? Enigma can drastically change the colour and "patterning" of the eye.


Yeah there's a photo above in my first post 

(not a recent photo though)


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## gazz

Well here he is a hatchling and he has a Aberrant body + banded tail so he's a Talbino enigma aberrant tangerine.

Even in enigmas,Body pattern is still very relivent.Coz if you don't reconize a Aberrant then you can't reconnize a Hyper aberrant.If you don't reconize a Hyper aberrant then you can't reconnize a striped.If you don't reconize a Striped then you can't reconnize a Reverse striped.if you don't reconize a Reverse striped then you can't reconnize a Patternless reverse striped.So just a a leo is expressing the Enigma gene that doesn't mean that body pattern is irrelevent.


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## Morphene

gazz said:


> image
> Well here he is a hatchling and he has a Aberrant body + banded tail so he's a Talbino enigma aberrant tangerine.
> 
> Even in enigmas,Body pattern is still very relivent.Coz if you don't reconize a Aberrant then you can't reconnize a Hyper aberrant.If you don't reconize a Hyper aberrant then you can't reconnize a striped.If you don't reconize a Striped then you can't reconnize a Reverse striped.if you don't reconize a Reverse striped then you can't reconnize a Patternless reverse striped.So just a a leo is expressing the Enigma gene that doesn't mean that body pattern is irrelevent.


So hyper aberrant is a jungle?

Mango is aberrant as he has a banded tail & not an aberrant tail (meaning he would then be jungle) ?


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## gazz

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> So hyper aberrant is a jungle?
> 
> Mango is aberrant as he has a banded tail & not an aberrant tail (meaning he would then be jungle) ?


Banded body + Aberrant tail = Aberrant.

Aberrant body + Banded tail = Aberrant.

Aberrant body + Aberrant tail = Hyper aberrant.-AKA-[Jungle].


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## MrMike

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> Yeah there's a photo above in my first post
> 
> (not a recent photo though)


Well, that was me being rather thick....

Definately Enigma eyes though, maybe not typical TAlbino enigma eyes, but what is typical about Enigmas?


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## Morphene

Thanks gazz :thumb:




MrMike said:


> Well, that was me being rather thick....
> 
> Definately Enigma eyes though, maybe not typical TAlbino enigma eyes, but what is typical about Enigmas?


Cool! He's a freak lol


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## GlasgowGecko

gazz said:


> image
> Well here he is a hatchling and he has a Aberrant body + banded tail so he's a Talbino enigma aberrant tangerine.
> 
> Even in enigmas,Body pattern is still very relivent.Coz if you don't reconize a Aberrant then you can't reconnize a Hyper aberrant.If you don't reconize a Hyper aberrant then you can't reconnize a striped.If you don't reconize a Striped then you can't reconnize a Reverse striped.if you don't reconize a Reverse striped then you can't reconnize a Patternless reverse striped.So just a a leo is expressing the Enigma gene that doesn't mean that body pattern is irrelevent.



OK, so do you get Enigmas with fully banded bodies? The way it appears on both the photo you have shown and the OP's animal the Enigma circle character is forming within the bands, and banding can be clearly seen. IF the 'Enigma gene' were not present, I would suggest this individual would not be aberrant, which make me think that in this case, it can't be classed as aberrant.

However I will conceed that this may be moot if indeed banded enigmas exist..

Andy


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## MrMike

GlasgowGecko said:


> OK, so do you get Enigmas with fully banded bodies? The way it appears on both the photo you have shown and the OP's animal the Enigma circle character is forming within the bands, and banding can be clearly seen. IF the 'Enigma gene' were not present, I would suggest this individual would not be aberrant, which make me think that in this case, it can't be classed as aberrant.
> 
> However I will conceed that this may be moot if indeed banded enigmas exist..
> 
> Andy


There was a thread on here recently with a suspected banded enigma....

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/genetics/369458-another-what-leo-please.html

And also another suspected enigma that doesn't follow the normal "rules"

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/genetics/383905-enigma-stripe-funky-stripe-2nd.html


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## GlasgowGecko

I'm not sure that either of these fully answer the question, and perhaps questions about whether they actually carry the enigma trait confuses this further.

Interestingly IF Funky1's gecko does carry the Enigma trait, I would certainly suggest that this carries an aberrant pattern (obviously this could be considered a strip, but still...)

Andy


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## gazz

GlasgowGecko said:


> OK, so do you get Enigmas with fully banded bodies? The way it appears on both the photo you have shown and the OP's animal the Enigma circle character is forming within the bands, and banding can be clearly seen. IF the 'Enigma gene' were not present, I would suggest this individual would not be aberrant, which make me think that in this case, it can't be classed as aberrant.
> 
> However I will conceed that this may be moot if indeed banded enigmas exist..
> 
> Andy


The picture i and the op posted are the same leo there for the same pattern.If this leo that the op posted wasn't not enigma the patterning would be just the same a Aberrant.The enigma gene tends to reduced black in banding but enigma gene dosen't affect body pattern brake down.

Here is a Super hypo enigma [BANDED].









Here is a Super hypo enigma [ABERRANT].


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## [email protected]

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> I asked in another thread about what type of Enigma 'mango' is?
> 'funky1' ID'd him as:​
> *Jungle Tangerine Tremper Albino Enigma Leopard Gecko*​
> 
> I googled it & found this:​
> image​
> 
> From here > Leopard Geckos - Enigma Projects - ACReptiles.com​
> 
> BUT Mangos eyes are completely different?​
> image​
> 
> Here's a photo of the nose again:​
> image​
> 
> These photos are not recent, but I wouldn't have thought his eyes would have completely changed colour (pink/red)​
> 
> Even the body pattern to the above photo is not te same? (not doubting 'funky1' as he probably knows more than me)​
> 
> image​
> 
> 
> 
> .​


 
really nice tbh


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## nikster

Id say a tangerine enigma. I have personally noticed that enigmas always have blotcheson their back rather than stripes. So in my opinion the abbarrent would not be worth mentioning :2thumb:


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## Morphene

gazz said:


> The picture i and the op posted are the same leo there for the same pattern.If this leo that the op posted wasn't not enigma the patterning would be just the same a Aberrant.The enigma gene tends to reduced black in banding but enigma gene dosen't affect body pattern brake down.


 


nikster said:


> Id say a tangerine enigma. I have personally noticed that enigmas always have blotcheson their back rather than stripes. So in my opinion the abbarrent would not be worth mentioning :2thumb:


From what I can make out I think what gazz said above disproves what you're trying to point out. 

Or do you mean that even though the aberrant pattern is visible, as it's an enigma anyway, it's then "not worth mentioning"? 
where as if it _wasn't_ an enigma then it _is _worth mentioning.... so then surely there cannot be such a thing as a 'hyper aberrant' enigma aka 'jungle' enigma?

EDIT: Or I have contradicted myself & I am making this more confusing than it needs to be, probably.


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## MrMike

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> From what I can make out I think what gazz said above disproves what you're trying to point out.
> 
> Or do you mean that even though the aberrant pattern is visible, as it's an enigma anyway, it's then "not worth mentioning"?
> where as if it _wasn't_ an enigma then it _is _worth mentioning.... so then surely there cannot be such a thing as a 'hyper aberrant' enigma aka 'jungle' enigma?
> 
> EDIT: Or I have contradicted myself & I am making this more confusing than it needs to be, probably.


On a genetic level, I can't see why you can't have a jungle enigma. However, as Enigma seem to "mess" with patterning (in most cases), a jungle enigma cannot be visually identified?

I'm not sure myself and would call Mango a jungle/abbarant/hyper abbarant.


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## Morphene

MrMike said:


> On a genetic level, I can't see why you can't have a jungle enigma. However, as Enigma seem to "mess" with patterning (in most cases), a jungle enigma cannot be visually identified?
> 
> I'm not sure myself and would call Mango a jungle/abbarant/hyper abbarant.


 
Yeah I see what you mean. 

A leopard gecko could be a 'Jungle Enigma' but as it is an Enigma it could be the Enigma trait that's playing around with the patterning & not any kind of Jungle trait at all. 

Is that right? :?

That would be a problem if you wanted to cross a Jungle Enigma het for all the other RAPTOR components, to another RAPTOR or something, to try & get a Nova for example.


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## MrMike

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> Yeah I see what you mean.
> 
> A leopard gecko could be a 'Jungle Enigma' but as it is an Enigma it could be the Enigma trait that's playing around with the patterning & not any kind of Jungle trait at all.
> 
> Is that right? :?
> 
> That would be a problem if you wanted to cross a Jungle Enigma het for all the other RAPTOR components, to another RAPTOR or something, to try & get a Nova for example.


Maybe, I am just running through ideas in my head tbh. Although 99% of Novas aren't patternless. Most tend to be TAlbino eclipse tangerine enigma jungles.


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## Morphene

MrMike said:


> Maybe, I am just running through ideas in my head tbh. Although 99% of Novas aren't patternless. Most tend to be TAlbino eclipse tangerine enigma jungles.


How would someone prove they had a super nova 'rain-bell' blizzard unless they produced every possible combo from a pair of these? You just wouldn't know for sure?

Like an *albino super-snow blizzard RAPTOR = WHITE, but it could be a really nice *diablo blanco or *Tremper Albino super-snow blizzard? Until you could produce everything the *morph contains how would you ever know?

EDIT: What I mean is, unless I crossed mango to another Jungle or an Enigma or even a Jungle Enigma or Aberrant Enigma, I wouldn't know even then if it was the Jungle trait or Enigma trait messing with the pattern.


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## gazz

MrMike said:


> Although 99% of Novas aren't patternless *striped*. Most tend to be TAlbino eclipse tangerine enigma jungles.


There for aren't NOVA's :whistling2: :2thumb:.Coz a NOVA is a RAPTOR Enigma: victory:.


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## MrMike

gazz said:


> There for aren't NOVA's :whistling2: :2thumb:.Coz a NOVA is a RAPTOR Enigma: victory:.


Technically true :lol2:


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## marcgroovyge

Im confused because enigma do not have stripes. That is why I can see why it is not worth mentioning the abarrent or the jungle. A enigma is born with blotches so as the would all be abarrent/jungle it makes it a bit of a pointless trait to include. I think that is was Nikster was trying to say


Glad to see your on the ball again mike :lol2:


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## MrMike

marcgroovyge said:


> Im confused because enigma do not have stripes. That is why I can see why it is not worth mentioning the abarrent or the jungle. A enigma is born with blotches so as the would all be abarrent/jungle it makes it a bit of a pointless trait to include. I think that is was Nikster was trying to say
> 
> 
> Glad to see your on the ball again mike :lol2:


Enigmas do have stripes, there are definately striped Enigmas around. Some pics earlier in this thread I think.

A 3 month old baby is my excuse for missing a few oints recently 

Edit: It was another thread, credit to Slurm for the pics



















They may not show striping as adults, but it is definately there.


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## tonkaz0

*Enigma*

EDIT: What I mean is, unless I crossed mango to another Jungle or an Enigma or even a Jungle Enigma or Aberrant Enigma, I wouldn't know even then if it was the Jungle trait or Enigma trait messing with the pattern.[/QUOTE]



It wouldnt be wise to breed him with any other Enigma at all!, Him being an Enigma, I would probably cause all sorts of problems with the offspring.


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## gazz

marcgroovyge said:


> Im confused because enigma do not have stripes. That is why I can see why it is not worth mentioning the abarrent or the jungle. A enigma is born with blotches so as the would all be abarrent/jungle it makes it a bit of a pointless trait to include. I think that is was Nikster was trying to say
> 
> 
> Glad to see your on the ball again mike :lol2:


Enigma striped.









Enigma reverse striped.









Enigma patternless reverse striped.


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## Morphene

tonkaz0 said:


> It wouldnt be wise to breed him with any other Enigma at all!, Him being an Enigma, I would probably cause all sorts of problems with the offspring.


It was a theory. Like saying "IF I did this.... etc etc".


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## MrMike

tonkaz0 said:


> It wouldnt be wise to breed him with any other Enigma at all!, Him being an Enigma, I would probably cause all sorts of problems with the offspring.


As far as I'm aware there isn't any evidence to suggest this. I know a couple of people who have bred enigma to enigma and others who will be trying it next season.

As long as both animals are 100% healthy then I can't see the problem.


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## tonkaz0

MrMike said:


> As far as I'm aware there isn't any evidence to suggest this. I know a couple of people who have bred enigma to enigma and others who will be trying it next season.
> 
> As long as both animals are 100% healthy then I can't see the problem.


 
I know you dont agree Mike, thats your choice and your entitled to that, but I have read it a couple of times before somewhere on different sites that it wasnt advisable to cross them!,
but its on Ron Trempers site as well on the Enigma page, where he believes himself the problems they have may well be amplified,
as much as I would be tempted in crossing two of my really nice ones together, I have had head turning and shaking with Enigma x Macksnow and this Enigma showed no problems at all, so I certainly wouldnt go Enigma x Enigma even if the Enigma`s were looking perfect.


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## Morphene

tonkaz0 said:


> I know you dont agree Mike, thats your choice and your entitled to that, but I have read it a couple of times before somewhere on different sites that it wasnt advisable to cross them!,
> but its on Ron Trempers site as well on the Enigma page, where he believes himself the problems they have may well be amplified,
> as much as I would be tempted in crossing two of my really nice ones together, I have had head turning and shaking with Enigma x Macksnow and this Enigma showed no problems at all, so I certainly wouldnt go Enigma x Enigma even if the Enigma`s were looking perfect.


 
I bet you'll find most of the people/breeders that say don't do it are the ones doing it. 

He also says this too: 

"It is possible that this problem can be bred out of this unique morph over time"

:whistling2:

"the positive results seen in the last 2 years greatly outweigh any downside."










" Until the results of more ENIGMA to ENIGMA breedings are completed worldwide, we could see that an ENIGMA bred to an ENIGMA gives 75-100% ENIGMAS."

:crazy: "75% enigma" ? 
How can you have a 75% enigma? 
It's either enigma or not!? 
I thought enigmas were already 100% enigma as they are called 'enigma' ?

"The ENIGMAS also can display a physical defect in the form of shaking, spinning and/or head arching. The exact reason for this behavior is *still largely unknown*, but it is seen to a lesser degree in young whereby only one parent is an ENIGMA. ENIGMAS bred to each other *may *amplify this problem. Some ENIGMAS do not display any problems whatsoever while others reveal abnormal movements only when they are disturbed."

It's seen to a lesser degree in young with a single parent enigma cross - meaning that, there must have been 'tests' done to see what results in enigma x enigma pairings...... but then he says enigmas bred to each other "may" amplify this problem??? 

Well either he knows for sure or he doesn't? How can he say it's less likely when a single enigma parent is bred compared to enigma x enigma as he doesn't sound too certain.

*cough*







*cough*

LEOPARDGECKO.COM | Enigmas


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## tonkaz0

Yes I can see where your coming from and I to very much believe that they have bred them together to see what is the outcome that goes without saying,
I emailed him about what he thought and if he had tried it and this was his reply, short but to the point,

Hi Tony
I do not do such crosses for fear of enhancing the problems inherent with this morph.

best 
R.

Which leads me to believe that he has done it with bad results, like I say I was very tempted myself with a couple of crackers Ive got, but after crossing with a normal mack female I had one shaking and turning like mad it putme off, Ive no doubt you could cross them and probably get ones that show no problems at all but I personally wouldnt do it for fear of the worst, I have also emailed steve sykes just out of interest to ask his thoughts about it and if hes tried it and what the results were, I will post them up if he replies before I go on holiday this weds.


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## gazz

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> :crazy: "75% enigma" ?
> How can you have a 75% enigma?


I beleave they are refering to offspring outcome.

[1C]Enigma X [1C]Enigma= .

25%Normal.
50%[1C]Enigma.
25%[2C]Enigma.

75%Enigma offspring.


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## Morphene

gazz said:


> I beleave they are refering to offspring outcome.
> 
> [1C]Enigma X [1C]Enigma= .
> 
> 25%Normal.
> 50%[1C]Enigma.
> 25%[2C]Enigma.
> 
> 75%Enigma offspring.


Thanks for clearing that one up gazz :Na_Na_Na_Na:

You get what I meant though lol


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## Morphene

tonkaz0 said:


> Yes I can see where your coming from and I to very much believe that they have bred them together to see what is the outcome that goes without saying,
> I emailed him about what he thought and if he had tried it and this was his reply, short but to the point,
> 
> Hi Tony
> I do not do such crosses for fear of enhancing the problems inherent with this morph.
> 
> best
> R.
> 
> Which leads me to believe that he has done it with bad results, like I say I was very tempted myself with a couple of crackers Ive got, but after crossing with a normal mack female I had one shaking and turning like mad it putme off, Ive no doubt you could cross them and probably get ones that show no problems at all but I personally wouldnt do it for fear of the worst, I have also emailed steve sykes just out of interest to ask his thoughts about it and if hes tried it and what the results were, I will post them up if he replies before I go on holiday this weds.


I bet that's an automated reply :2thumb:

He probably has test bred & come out with poor results - maybe some were & are still fine.

Trouble is I would be tempted to find out for myself, but I don't have any enigma females atm & any defects I would keep obviously.

Is there actually any solid proof of enigma x enigma =









Like 1000 enigmas bred to another 1000 seperate enigmas ie. not 1.3 crosses only 1.1 crosses? Then getting results from those?

Or has it been half a dozen breeders bred 1.3 enigmas had shite results, lost money & thought sorry no good so nobody else do it please.

(not asking you specifically)


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## tonkaz0

I do email him every now and again and most of his emails are like that, very short and sweet, but I would bet all these top breeders have crossed Enigmas loads of times, dont you?, but I would interested to know what ratio of abnormalities if any, severe or not, I think I will leave it until Ive heard a bit more about the results.


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## MrMike

tonkaz0 said:


> I do email him every now and again and most of his emails are like that, very short and sweet, but I would bet all these top breeders have crossed Enigmas loads of times, dont you?, but I would interested to know what ratio of abnormalities if any, severe or not, I think I will leave it until Ive heard a bit more about the results.


As you say, figures are needed to make a completely informed decision. I do know people have crossed enigma to enigma with 100% healthy offspring, and some people have tried outcrossing their enigma lines and had affected offspring.


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## Morphene

tonkaz0 said:


> I do email him every now and again and most of his emails are like that, very short and sweet, but I would bet all these top breeders have crossed Enigmas loads of times, dont you?, but I would interested to know what ratio of abnormalities if any, severe or not, I think I will leave it until Ive heard a bit more about the results.


Oh I can understand as he is probably extremely busy & also has a life too lol

Yes I do think that when the first few enigmas were able to be bred that they were definitely crossed to each other, at some point.

That's what I was getting at; a ratio of good to bad & then see for myself whether it really is as bad as people/breeders make out...or not.

Like I said above, it is tempting but do we wait for other people to give us results & the decide or do we just get our own results?

MrMike says below: " I do know people have crossed enigma to enigma with 100% healthy offspring" people - not 'one' person.



MrMike said:


> As you say, figures are needed to make a completely informed decision. I do know people have crossed enigma to enigma with 100% healthy offspring, and some people have tried outcrossing their enigma lines and had affected offspring.


It really is an enigma!


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