# UVB 5.0 or 10.0?



## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

A little advice please. Im changing my whites tree frog tank to a larger 2ftx2ftx2ft. At the moment they're in a 60x45 Exo with a 5.0 UVB compact bulb.
For this larger tank shall I be looking at a 5 or 10 uvb tube? I've read conflicting opinions, and apparently either/or is fine although it states the 10 is for desert reptiles.


----------



## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

If using a larger tank then I would opt for a higher output lamp as the UV decreases in power the further it has to travel.


----------



## Heart4Darts (Oct 10, 2009)

your tank is going to be around 5inches taller, and i think 5.0 will be enough.


----------



## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

There is only one way to work this out!

Average wild uv index of the animal. Check that with the index output of the lamp.

Then make sure that, that index is available at the basking point.

Use this as part of a dedicated photo gradient and you can't go wrong.

Knowing what we know about lamps now we simply can't say 5% for this and 10% for that it just docent work like that,

John


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Arcadiajohn said:


> There is only one way to work this out!
> 
> Average wild uv index of the animal. Check that with the index output of the lamp.
> 
> ...


So, use the 5%. :lol2:


----------



## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

No it won't do the job through a mesh and at that height for most brands.

I can only speak for Arcadia but through a mesh for that species and at that height I would be looking at using the UVFlood over a third of the viv to re-create upper strength columns of light as part of the light and shade method.

For example an Asian made 5% T8 through a mesh and at that height will nit be providing even a quarter of what I would like to see.

This is all new stuff I know but it does work well in the test cases and is backed up from UVguides new zoo tool info.

Allowing an animal the ability/right to seek out columns of upper strength light as part of a photo gradient is only re-creating what they can do in nature and is an exact way of ensuring that THEY regulate in the exposure that they require at any one time.

Working on Project lemur Frog has really opened my eyes to amphibs and their abilities and needs for good self regulation. Don't forget that nothing has to be awake to benefit from the D3 cycle and it's attributes.

John




Ron Magpie said:


> So, use the 5%. :lol2:


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

That would be good advice for a ground dwelling reptile from an area with a high uvb exposure John.

Not so good for a species that is going to perch inches from the top of the viv and go to sleep, and that is usually under at least partial cover from the leaf canopy. 

The jury is still out over White's even need UVB. Heck, I only have a biovital over mine, which gives off less UVB than a 5.0, and my White's are very healthy. I do however have a viv made out of optiwhite glass for them. 

I just want to suggest serious caution here over getting caught up with UVB excitement discussing a species that does well without any.


----------



## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Okay I keep darts and not tree frogs so maybe i`m not qualified to talk about this.
I have stopped using UV for my frogs and so far have not found any problems.
Certainly none that I know of.
My frogs are all breeding and carrying on wth life as normal.
In the wild many dart frogs spend a lot of their time on the ground and only venture up into the canopies on occassion, maybe to feed tads for instance.
Would I be correct in saying that tree frogs select a shaded spot among the leaves and settle down for the day and wait for night time to become active ?
So why have a lamp which could bake your frogs ie: 10%
Read any instructions for uv lamps and a 10 is for desert animals, beardies for instance.
IF the frog needs uv and it can detect it coming through the viv top i`m sure it will go there and get what it needs.
Ask yourself, is it worth the risk to your frogs ?
Stick with the recommended 5% and keep your frogs safe.

Mike


----------



## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi Ade,

Yes you have a point but slightly miss my sentiment.

The sun provides a certain amount of power per Eco system. This does not change. If in the wild there is an average index of say 8.0 that index is therefore available to every species in that envioronment. Sun loving reptiles will use leaf scatter illumination and bask for long periods to obtain the energy that they require over the tine frame that they need. Crepuscular animals will use shafts of light of the same or relative index at certain times of the day for the period of time that they require, be it an hour or two. Deeply crepuscular animals may only shift position into an energy column for a few mins a day but the index remains the same.

So our thinking is that above all things nature has it right! Every species is adapted over millions of years to the climates and will obtain what they need in the best way to them. So by re-creating nature we as keepers can't go wrong.

Now we look at this species with built in protection from the sun like the whites. The secretions are thought to work as a sun screen from the high index that they live in in the wild, so does this mean that they don't require sunlight? No it means that they do but similar to iguanas they have a built in protection method. So do try need less energy or more? From what I have seen from Andrew Grays and his teams work with thermal imaging and DNA work no they need more simply to bypass the protection that they have developed.

So by providing an upper strength section to the viv we allow the animal to decide the exact index that it requires at any time. Rather than forcing it to be exposed to the same index all over. So the advice is to light a quarter to a half of the viv and with the use of planting and decoration allow them to decide where to be.

I know it's all knew theory but it does kinda make sense. Learn from nature and re-create it.

This method does seem to be working wonders at the museum which now has T5s throughout,

So yes care MUST be taken we certainly would advise massive indexes over the whole enclosure with no chance to self regulate. In fact for me self regulation as part of a dedicated photo gradient must be the way forward.

John


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

The dappling or 'leaf scattering' is important, though, I feel- I wouldn't be happy supplying 10% in a viv that wasn't heavily planted, to give some shade. Actually, I wouldn't really be happy supplying 10% to frogs at all, but I take your knowledge and experience into account.


----------



## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> Okay I keep darts and not tree frogs so maybe i`m not qualified to talk about this.
> I have stopped using UV for my frogs and so far have not found any problems.
> Certainly none that I know of.
> My frogs are all breeding and carrying on wth life as normal.
> ...


I provide only 2% for my tincs through a mesh so whilst on the ground they probably get nothing. However they do venture towards the top and I have seen them basking under the light. My point is that they will self regulate if needed and too high a UV content won't allow then to do this. 

I am no expert on lighting unlike a lot of you guys but this is my experience over many years.

Adam


----------



## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

I'm new to all this lighting technology and have always used a maximum of 5-6% depending on the brand. If something is commercially marked up as 'Jungle' then one would presume that all 'jungle' species would tolerate such a product. Up until recent times I kept a lot of different phibs and chams but now solely concentrate on hylids. I still have adults, juvs and metas under the 5-6% lights however I have since moved my group of Lemurs under 12% flood.

I have some before and after shots just to clarify and back up some of the valid points raised in the thread. As you can see, the difference in only a few months is incredible. I for one will be opting to cover new ground and increase my lamps to higher outputs. I don't see this as a gamble, I see this as a step forward move as new research is compiled and lighting technology improves.

Before









After


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Sorry James, but there are too many variables there to say that the UV-B increase had anything to do with the different looking colours there.

1) The first pic you had only recently got the frogs, stressed frogs change colour to settled frogs.

2) You've got the frog under completely differently lighting as you took each photograph.

I'd also argue that you haven't had them under the lighting long enough to know what the long term effects may be.

Regards


----------



## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Wolfenrook said:


> Sorry James, but there are too many variables there to say that the UV-B increase had anything to do with the different looking colours there.
> 
> 1) The first pic you had only recently got the frogs, stressed frogs change colour to settled frogs.
> 
> ...


 Maybe, maybe not.... nothing ventured nothing gained right? I'm well aware of stress patterns but my example is purely not based on guess work. Sad maybe but I've been watching the frogs behaviour as an act of caution as I do with most of the newbie's that I take on (signs of problems and dormancy). Their behaviour and colouration has certainly changed. OK one month is chicken feed but like I said earlier - I don't see this as a gamble. Thumbs up, thumbs down but this is the route I'll be doing down with these frogs.


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Your choice to make bud, as they're not White's either. 

For me, the biggest change I saw in the behavior of my White's was when I upgraded them to an 80x50x60cm viv, at which point they became a LOT more active. As I already mentioned, only UV on there is from a Narva Biovital through optiwhite glass. They look happy enough to me too:-










lol

Besides which, and John can answer this one better probably, once the 24 watt PLL UV bulb blows that comes with, where do you buy a new one from? I can't find anybody selling them, and the fitting is a bit pricey to replace every 12 months..... That's what's stopping me from fitting one in my bearded dragon viv.


----------



## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Does look happy in the typical 'prayer position' whites seem to portray very well.


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Thanks.

I really would be more willing to try the floods, I was been honest there. But I do feel Arcadia have made rather an oversight not sorting out stores with spare bulbs to sell for them. I know they are probably thinking that nobody should need one yet, unless they blow too soon, but I am sure I am not the only one that a) like to know that spare bulbs can be purchased and b) how much they are going to cost, before actually purchasing the fitting.

Hence I plan to stick with T5HOs for now.

I'd also be concerned about using 12% UV over live planted vivs, the people I know who have tried it haven't had brilliant results.

Ade


----------



## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Keeping both lizards and frogs I have noticed many things over the years:

35 years ago lizards were ket without ultravolet tubes or rudimentary tubes that either did not give out much u.v.b. or too much.Nowadays with better u.v.b.( and other better husbandry) they are bred more frequently.Why shouldn`t this be the case with frogs and toads?If you look at wild treefrogs ,greenfrogs or GreenToads the actively bask.I am sure that they are increasing their body temperature but as a by product they must be getting a hefty dose of u.v.b.So why not give it to them in captivity?Just because they can survive without out it doesn`t mean that they wont benefit.

I have never seen dartfrogs in the wild but mine in captivity dont seem to bask and the d.v.d.s that I have seen for the rainforest species seem to show them in the darker parts of the forest.But we light our vivariums much brighter than the rainforest mainly to keep the plants alive so you can use an u.v.b. tube for short periods if you like.

Whilst all tubes have a percentage u.v.b. on the packet this is way less than the natural sunlight. You only have to check it with a meter,so I think that manufacturers err on the side of caution.There are way too many variables as John has said,mesh size,reflectors, age of the tube etc.

The one thing that I cannot understand is that people assume that if a frog is basking near a tube it is asumed that its doing it for the ultraviolet.Surely it can be doing it for the extra heat that is given off by the tube?


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I have actually seen video of one dartfrog basking in the sun Colin, oophaga sylvatica 'red head'. It was on Nigel Marvin's Wild Columbia that was shown on Eden recently. They were right out there on a grassy bank actually basking in the sun! lol Pretty sure one of the guys breeding these in the UK has been reproducing this using short bursts of UVB from an arcadia lamp.

I would agree re the heat thing. My frogs spend most of their time near the lights during the day, but they do so under cover of leaves, rather than out in the actual light. These been my White's. They only come out into the open when the lights are off, unless there is food in the viv... lol

PS. Just checked, Wild Columbia is currently repeating, I think it's episode 3 or 4 with the darts on it.


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

The really good thing about this and similar threads is that we get to share experience- I'll be following this to see how it works out, before I commit to anything.


----------



## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Wolfenrook said:


> I have actually seen video of one dartfrog basking in the sun Colin, oophaga sylvatica 'red head'. It was on Nigel Marvin's Wild Columbia that was shown on Eden recently. They were right out there on a grassy bank actually basking in the sun! lol Pretty sure one of the guys breeding these in the UK has been reproducing this using short bursts of UVB from an arcadia lamp.


I will have to check that out.

I have seen photos of german and Dutch guys doing the same with mercury vapour bulbs rather than standard u.v.b. tubes.


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Yeah, I read about some guys at I think it was Edingburgh zoo doing that with Azureas in the old BDG archives.

Ade


----------



## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi all, 

Just a couple of points.

Yes the new HO 24w power compact in the flood is replaceable. We makes the potted version to ensure water proofing. But I am delighted to say we are the first in the world to do so, but only after a full years testing in and ex house and after a full cycle from UVguide. For me HOT5 is a huge leap forward for exact solar re-creation. Power compacts enable us to provide the energy over a smaller area. HOT5 tubes start at 24w or 550mm where as the power compact lights an area of 30cm but as it's effectively 2 tubes side by side over a wide horizontal area. The lamps are as always guaranteed for one whole year. The code is FD3PC24E and they will be just under £20.00 each per year.

We are now actively gathering UVI readings and wild behaviour records for amphib and lizards species all over the world. Andrew Gray is in Costa Rica and promises some very interesting info when he returns and we have a contact in Madagascar and Komodo doing this also. I will of course make this info available to all.

John


----------



## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

Maybe erring on the side of caution moreso than others due to my early losses which was put down to possible MBD I always provide plenty of UV to all my phibs, with exception of the chubby frogs & oak toad who are never out in daylight to benefit, but provide plenty of hiding/shaded spots.
In my current exo hoods I'm using one 13w 10% and one 26w 5%, bearing in mind though that any UV will have to pass through sunbed acrylic (Which when tested with a meter blocks about 50% of UV :bash and then the exo mesh. Inhabitants are B.regularis from egypt/africa and the other for B.bufo.
With my treefrogs I decided against 10's due to the fact they use the height in the tank so can get closer to the bulbs.
Would love a UV meter but they're silly money


----------



## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

REDDEV1L said:


> Would love a UV meter but they're silly money


 They are worth it in the long run if you use a lot of tubes.It stops you throwing away good tubes and conversely tells you when you need to replace them.I think that mine cost about £150 but u.v. tubes are around 320 each so it doesn`t take too long to get your money back.


----------

