# Housing size, do things need to change?



## Rshimmin (Sep 13, 2016)

Evening everyone, I’m bored on the night shift and I’m pondering so thought I’d see what peoples thoughts were on this. I’m sure this topic has been done to death but I haven’t put my 2 pence in, so here we go again. 
So, I stopped keeping reptiles a couple of years ago due to divorce and house sale, but I’m going to be in a position again soon to get back into it. Looking around at various websites for inspiration of new and interesting species, as well as old familiar ones, I stumbled across this article in the online journal of veterinary behaviour;









Spatial considerations for captive snakes


Captive environments for snakes commonly involve small enclosures with dimensions that prevent occupants from adopting straight line body postures. In…




www.sciencedirect.com





Now, as I was approaching the end of my last keeping ‘stint’ I was in the process of downsizing thenumber of animals and upsizing the enclosure size with the intention of keeping fewer animals better rather than keeping many animals adequately. And after reading this article I have to say I’m inclined to go even further in that direction. This article was a real eye opener. I often found myself thinking “yes, a snake may spend 90% of its time under a log, but the other ten percent shouldn’t it have room to explore? Stretch out? Is a 4x2x2 viv really ok for a 5/6’ snake? How many of our captives have felt running water, or a breeze? Are we really causing them discomfort, suffering and even illness/injury because of how small their enclosures are? Does naturalistic or bio active setups matter? Live plants? Does substrate matter? Surely living in a pile of dusty aspen can’t be pleasant. Also, the second most common snake name behind monty (🤦‍♂️) is probably Houdini. We know how good snakes are at escaping their enclosure. Is this behaviour not telling us something? Are we ignoring this massive clue, to save ourselves the uncomfortable truth that our beloved pets aren’t happy?
Subjective to an extent I know, but our understanding of reptile intelligence is constantly changing, and it seems every time we learn something new, we learn that we’ve been doing them a disservice.
I wonder if in years to come this discussion will change, and we won’t be saying snake length = viv length + depth like I’ve been told so many times, but instead give them all the room you can, and if they can’t stretch out fully, don’t keep them!
Now this is not to bash the way folks keep their animals (well, it is for some, we’ve all seen the ads on Preloved) I don’t want to trigger anyone but if we are doing something wrong we should talk about it, even if we don’t like to admit it. And if we are doing it wrong, what can we do about it when the housing available to buy is so small? And how much does enclosure size have to do with how much space there is next to the bookshelf, instead of how much space the animal needs. And the old “of it feed, if it breeds, it’s happy” excuse doesn’t wash anymore, just look at factory farmed animals to see how that is rubbish. 
I would love to hear some other opinions on this, especially from some of the more experiences keepers. Do you agree or disagree? And what makes you feel that way? Just for fun I’m going to put a poll on this post too, mainly because I haven’t done that before! Also, has anyones view changed after reading this article? Looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say.


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## Saladmander (12 mo ago)

I've been out of the hobby for a while and recently come back too, some things have definitely changed (there's always going to be people staying in the past with any hobby, situation or opinion)

The issues aren't just reptile based either - I think a huge problem is that far too many people see pets as a right rather than the luxury that they are and to he'll with anything else. "What's the easiest way I can keep this with minimum impact to my life (space, time, money etc etc)".
Just look at the size of hamster cages and rabbit hutches sold in pet shops. The very fact that fish bowls are called fish bowls... if shops sold enclosures that were actually suitable for the animals, the only people keeping them would be the ones more interested in the animals welfare than their own convenience.
Which would only be a good thing.

I was watching a YouTube video the other day of somebody touring a (famous? Well known? Popular?) royal python breeding facility. These snakes must have been near adult size - definitely not hatchling at any rate - and were kept in essentially shoebox drawers with nought but a waterfowl (not anywhere near big enough to soak in) and a thin layer of substrate. Other facilities don't even have the substrate. The animal coiled up was touching both sides of the 'enclosure'. Not a single mention was made about this. The only comments where how impressive the genes were, how much the snakes were worth, how exciting breeding projects would be. The room looked like a morgue or something. Floor to ceiling, wall to wall drawers Hundreds of snakes. No light, no enrichment, no space to explore or exercise.
It's battery farming, nothing else to it.
Now I'm not saying that royal pythons need to be kept in room sizes enclosures with waterfalls and ferris wheels, but surely keeping them like they are archived paperwork goes against The Five Freedoms?

It seems all too often than these amazing animals are seen more as investments, collectibles and breeding machines, rather than the living creatures that they are.

The animals we keep depend on us for absolutely everything.
We as a species need to do better on their behalf.

To paraphrase Dr Ian Malcolm;
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.


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## Rshimmin (Sep 13, 2016)

Saladmander said:


> I've been out of the hobby for a while and recently come back too, some things have definitely changed (there's always going to be people staying in the past with any hobby, situation or opinion)
> 
> The issues aren't just reptile based either - I think a huge problem is that far too many people see pets as a right rather than the luxury that they are and to he'll with anything else. "What's the easiest way I can keep this with minimum impact to my life (space, time, money etc etc)".
> Just look at the size of hamster cages and rabbit hutches sold in pet shops. The very fact that fish bowls are called fish bowls... if shops sold enclosures that were actually suitable for the animals, the only people keeping them would be the ones more interested in the animals welfare than their own convenience.
> ...


That’s a really good point. We see so many luxuries as a right these days not just animals. And yes, I think so often the mentality is what’s the easiest way to keep something, rather than the best. 
I’ve seen sooo many YouTube videos like that!I’ve seen all kinds of videos justifying these kinds of setups and I’m with you 100%, factory farming. There is also a difference I’ve noticed in how animals are kept based on where the keeper is in the world, based on watching various YouTube vids (obv not significant research, just a general observation). America/Canada seems to favour racks and smaller enclosures, Africa/Australia seem to go for slightly larger but relatively basic enclosures, and Europe seems to be the ones pushing the bio active angle. I think when animals are bred as a business, (nothing wrong with that, btw) but they are then managed like a business. Costs low, maintenance low, profits high.
I also noticed on the subject of vivaria, certain brands advertise their terrariums with an animal that is way too big for that size of housing. That can’t be helping the culture we seem to have adopted.

So do you mind me asking what are you doing differently this time around?


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## Saladmander (12 mo ago)

Rshimmin said:


> So do you mind me asking what are you doing differently this time around?



Personally I'm focusing on just a couple of species in smaller numbers, rather than keeping lots of a wide variety.
The species I keep are my favourites (hence choosing them!) but they also happen to be relatively small species, so I can keep them in larger housing without needing to compromise on space for them vs physically fitting them in my house.
I'm also providing everyone with UVB, LED lighting and DHPs in an attempt at more natural heating/lighting setups, rather than standard mats and bulbs that I used to use, and am offering more of a variety in prey.
Hopefully they'll be happy with what I'm doing!


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## Rshimmin (Sep 13, 2016)

Good for you. I think that’s going to be a similar direction for me. A couple of nice small colubrid species, maybe one pair of bigger ones, and some amphibians, maybe a couple of creepy crawlies. I also won’t be doing viv stacks of 3 high anymore, I often found the bottom layer would never get as much love as the upper. So 2 stack high or even full height for me going forward. And good job with lighting, I think that’s something else that is often overlooked because it’s not “essential.” I’ve also seen some led units that simulate sunrise and sunsets, so instead of all light or no light they can have a proper cycle. I also want to incorporate some fans to get some air flow, not sure how I’m going to do that safely, but most of my enclosures are going to be home made anyway so I’m sure I’ll be able to design a space for them somehow.


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## That Asian Water Monitor (Nov 9, 2021)

Simple analogy, if I were contemplating having human kids, it would be irresponsible of me to even try(apart from the usual practice runs), to become a parent if I had spare leftover income of £20 per month and lived in a single room in a shared house. I always believe in giving as much space and enrichment for best results and that takes extra money.


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