# malawis and snails.



## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

finally decided to redecorate my fish tank and i want to ask this:

I have 3 female malawis, one male (happily breedings, babies are so SQUEE!) and 2 plecs.

Rio 180 tank (40gallon)

Can i add some golden apple snails to my tank for a bit more... umf? Will my malawis not molest them?

doing tank on wednesday, replies appreciated.


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

I think that apple snails would be fine and they get quite large, id be inclined to add a few more cichlids tbh.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

really? more malawis? its only 40 gallons (180 ltrs) though ive got a much much bigger filter for it... i was told 1 male and 3 females where overloading the tank! I forgot to mention i also have a parrot fish, shes not grown at all since being bought.

If i got more... is it ok to have more females? i had at one point 2 males in there but one was so agressive and territorial. 

yeah i was thinking golden apples cos they would be bigger than my fish


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> really? more malawis? its only 40 gallons (180 ltrs) though ive got a much much bigger filter for it... i was told 1 male and 3 females where overloading the tank! I forgot to mention i also have a parrot fish, shes not grown at all since being bought.
> 
> If i got more... is it ok to have more females? i had at one point 2 males in there but one was so agressive and territorial.
> 
> yeah i was thinking golden apples cos they would be bigger than my fish


 You can keep more in there the reason your two males will have been fighting is probably due to the fact that there arent many fish and the more fish you have the males can disperse the agression, do you know that species you have atm?


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

x1 large red marble plec
x1 unknown plec (small, bout 7cms)
x2 blue zebra malawis (1 female, 1 male)
x1 giraffe malawi
x1 orange malawi
x1 parrot fish.

how many do you reccomed then? if i was to add another male, how many females more do i add?


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> x1 large red marble plec
> x1 unknown plec (small, bout 7cms)
> x2 blue zebra malawis (1 female, 1 male)
> x1 giraffe malawi
> ...


 Hi i think that your giraffe malawi is a nimbochromis species and they can be quite predatory and grow upto 8-10" depending on the spp, personally id sell or rehome your pleco's & parrot cichlid and go to a shop which specialises in malawi cichlids and try restocking your tank, your best bet if to go for a trio of fish (1 male/2 females) just try to not get species where the females look too similar or they will tend to hybridise.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

get rid of my plecs? why! they are no toruble at all.... And yeah my giraffe one has outgrown the others but is never agressive, shes quite relaxed. My parrot i think would be happier being rehomed. how do i tell the difference betwee the two types then and get the right ones?

The pet shop i go to is one of the best in the northwest of where i live, There are no chiclid speciallists within 200 miles at least.


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> get rid of my plecs? why! they are no toruble at all.... And yeah my giraffe one has outgrown the others but is never agressive, shes quite relaxed. My parrot i think would be happier being rehomed. how do i tell the difference betwee the two types then and get the right ones?
> 
> The pet shop i go to is one of the best in the northwest of where i live, There are no chiclid speciallists within 200 miles at least.


 Hi plecos produce more waste than anything and in a malawi setup they can risk knocking and dislodging your rocks which can be dangerous, was just a suggesion, and shops like wharf aquatic, pier aquatics, blue ocean etc are all very good. tbh depending on where you got them from it will be hard to i.d. what species you have pix would help.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

ok so whats the type i want so i can look at pics... and yes.. i think its time fred got a new home. He's as tall as the tank now... Im just sad about getting rid of him cos ive had him since he was 3cms long. He's now a foot long. Had him for wow... nearly 10 years. Im really attached to him. 

Ok. I will take fred (my big plec) to them, and the parrot fish. I will keep my small plec, she is also 7 or 8 years old and is only 7 cms long. 

Will the snails help keep the glass/ tank clean then?


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## Blurboy (Feb 9, 2007)

Parrot Fish require totally different water requirements so aren't suitable for keeping with Malawi's. My mind boggles as to why people think they can just mix any fish together. If you wanted to keep Malawi's then read up on some books - there's loads and loads available (Ad Konings books for example) and then see exactly what can and can't be kept together. I personally wouldn't add the snails not unless they were empty shells and you had some small shell-dwellers to keep. 
But please please please do some reading on the Rift Lake cichlids and you'll be amazed at the fish you can keep.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

Ive seen parrot fish being kept very well with chiclids many times. Retaining good colour, mobility and overall health. there are many types of riftlake chiclids and im asking which ones im looking for to match the few i have. and if no snails... no plecs... exactly what can i mix for glass upkeep etc.


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> ok so whats the type i want so i can look at pics... and yes.. i think its time fred got a new home. He's as tall as the tank now... Im just sad about getting rid of him cos ive had him since he was 3cms long. He's now a foot long. Had him for wow... nearly 10 years. Im really attached to him.
> 
> Ok. I will take fred (my big plec) to them, and the parrot fish. I will keep my small plec, she is also 7 or 8 years old and is only 7 cms long.
> 
> Will the snails help keep the glass/ tank clean then?


 The snails do a good job of cleaning the glass, and for species theres a lot you can keep, too many to list but it might be worth looking into getting some literature i reccomend anything by Ad Konig.


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> Ive seen parrot fish being kept very well with chiclids many times. Retaining good colour, mobility and overall health. there are many types of riftlake chiclids and im asking which ones im looking for to match the few i have. and if no snails... no plecs... exactly what can i mix for glass upkeep etc.


 You can keep Ancistrus with them i have and even bred them in the same tank, my uncle used to breed Ancistrus in with tropheus.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

ok so im reading up atm... and im getting alot of odd information. for one it states no more than 2-3 fish for a tank under 55gallons (mine is 40) which is what i was told. There are veggies and ones that require more protien from snails/invertabrates ect... have i got veggies or protein eaters? Is it now wise for me to add another 2 females?


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> ok so im reading up atm... and im getting alot of odd information. for one it states no more than 2-3 fish for a tank under 55gallons (mine is 40) which is what i was told. There are veggies and ones that require more protien from snails/invertabrates ect... have i got veggies or protein eaters? Is it now wise for me to add another 2 females?


 I really think that you can keep more in that, id stick to getting info from reptuatable sites try www.svas.co.uk & www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk and such like, as a general rule what you currently have sounds like mbuna those are strictly vegetarian too much protein can give them bloat, haplochromis spp do benefit from some additional protein etc...


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

ok, mbuna are veggies, i should also change my subsrate too apparently to crushed coral to buffer the water... somehow i think my £150 isnt going to go very far....


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> ok, mbuna are veggies, i should also change my subsrate too apparently to crushed coral to buffer the water... somehow i think my £150 isnt going to go very far....


 Hi you could get soe crush cockle shell or oyster shell and put it into a stocking and put that inside your filter it will help boost your KH & GH. What are you using for your substrate atm? Coral sand is a good choice as its fine and great for your cichlids to sift through.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

wow something i did right  i ALWAYS have crushed cockle shell in my filter, i absolutly swear by it! Isnt it amazing stuff?!

i want to do a gravel change anyway. Can i mix half my 'average' size gravel with a smaller mix? I love small gravel mix tanks, makes them look neater. (but i know my fish liike to... redecorate themselves)

So I want some holey rock too... This is more than i imagined to change.

So - 
Big plec, parrot fish to be taken back
Need to get Mbuna species, x2 females
Holy rocks and caves. - lava rock, 
Smaller gravel (if possible)

anything else you reccomend?


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> wow something i did right  i ALWAYS have crushed cockle shell in my filter, i absolutly swear by it! Isnt it amazing stuff?!
> 
> i want to do a gravel change anyway. Can i mix half my 'average' size gravel with a smaller mix? I love small gravel mix tanks, makes them look neater. (but i know my fish liike to... redecorate themselves)
> 
> ...


 Hi smaller gravel would be ok but id go with coral sand as it will help buffer your water as well as its calcium based, you can also use ocean rock aswell and tuffa rock. Id add another 9/10 fish tbh and then maybe a few more, look into Labidochromis spp as they arent too agressive.


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## Blurboy (Feb 9, 2007)

If you use Tufa rock this will harden the water no problem and is ideal for Rift Lake cichlids. I used coral sand in my tanks but only a small amount as it can cause the fish to scratch if it irritates their gills but as they live with sand in their natural enviroment you shouldn't worry about it too much. 
Parrot Fish can be kept with some cichlids no problem at all but cichlid is a huge diverse type of fish and those from the Rift Lakes are best kept within their lake. I wouldn't mix Tangy's with ones from Victoria or from Malawi but you can get away with it in some cases. I kept my Frontosa's with my Haps from Lake Malawi no problem at all and they never ever got bullied or did any bullying.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

im just looking on the malawi chiclid website now at peaceful mbuna species, Ill print the pics and take them to the shop so i get the right ones... And sand?

OMG I LOVE YOU!

I CAN USE SAND!!!!

wait... hang on... i have an internal filter, ive heard sand is well bad for them, surely it'll get blown everywhere? how about i use half my orginal gravel and half sand? 

im not gonna add that many fish, im reallllly careful to overload the filters. Ill see how it goes without my big plec. For a start ill just add 3 females and go gradually till i get the right mix.


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> im just looking on the malawi chiclid website now at peaceful mbuna species, Ill print the pics and take them to the shop so i get the right ones... And sand?
> 
> OMG I LOVE YOU!
> 
> ...


 Hi its coral sand that you want, it isnt as fine as normal play pit sand and is heavier so wont get blown about etc.... and with malawis you want to add quite a few fish at once so that you dont get any problems with agression etc...


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

ok... melanochromis johanni (yellow female)
Labidochromis sp.
tropheops red cheek
blue daktari

these are the breeds i need to look for, its says they are Mbuna variety.

so my internat Juwel Filter will not get bunged up with the use of coral sand?


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> ok... melanochromis johanni (yellow female)
> Labidochromis sp.
> tropheops red cheek
> blue daktari
> ...


 Ive found that all melanochromis species are very agressive i would leave them out and parhaps substiture them with pseudotropheous demasoni.


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## Blurboy (Feb 9, 2007)

Well you've heard "well bad advice" because Internals are fine with sand! My first set up was a Fluval 4 many many years ago and it was perfect.


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Blurboy said:


> Well you've heard "well bad advice" because Internals are fine with sand! My first set up was a Fluval 4 many many years ago and it was perfect.


 I think its more in reference to the fact that over time if sand gets sucked up it can wear down and erode the impeller & shaft.


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## Blurboy (Feb 9, 2007)

Fair point regarding the impellers and shafts but I found Fluval stuff to be quite bullet proof and if anything did go wrong with them spares were cheap and easy to get hold of so I honestly wouldn't worry at all.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

i always clean my impella shaft and things each tank clean.

So with coral sand, this will upset my remaining plec? or will she just move onto the rocks?

I have taken three mbuna species and will take 2 of each so 6 in total at once. And also add a few big golden snails. Change my gravel to coral sand. Put in some nice tufa rock and caves, and some plants. 

I will remove my largest plec, giraffe chiclid and parrot fish.

I have two noraml aquaglow strip lights, this is correct also.

Any more ideas?... OOOO big questions. How on earth do you clean sand? With gravel i use a siphon, but im guess this would suck all my sand up, so how do i clean it?


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> i always clean my impella shaft and things each tank clean.
> 
> So with coral sand, this will upset my remaining plec? or will she just move onto the rocks?
> 
> ...


 That all sounds about right, you can still use a sython as coral sand is heavy so it wont all get sucked up, but if you hover above it it should be ok, and you can turn it over with your hands too etc...


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

youve been soooo helpful... i cant wait for wednesday now, so im guess this sand should be around 1-2 inches deep.

and ... well... im a bit upset now. I love my fred to bits. Im actually crying at the thought of loosing him. I know he is just a fish... but ive had him for so long and he;s survived every stupid mistake ive made. But your right, he needs a bigger home. Im such a stupid softy.


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> youve been soooo helpful... i cant wait for wednesday now, so im guess this sand should be around 1-2 inches deep.
> 
> and ... well... im a bit upset now. I love my fred to bits. Im actually crying at the thought of loosing him. I know he is just a fish... but ive had him for so long and he;s survived every stupid mistake ive made. But your right, he needs a bigger home. Im such a stupid softy.


 Id go for about 1.5" any deeper and you risk getting anerobic spots where the water has gotten trapped and stagnant, and your not a softy ive cried when i sold my stingrays and things on but at least he'll get a bigger tank!


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

id love to see him in a huge tank... ill miss him sooooo much, i love watching but its so annoying that he knocks everything over, and sends muck all over the tank.

ill have to take him down in a bucket... heh.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

oo one last question - what about my air bubbles? can i keep them or will that sent the sand everwhere?


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> oo one last question - what about my air bubbles? can i keep them or will that sent the sand everwhere?


 Your airstone wont do that as coral sand isnt as fine as regular sand and its quite heavy so it wont get blown about.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

yay!. im so excited! this is gonna cost me a fortune!


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i`d use coral gravel on its own or mixed with normal gravel rather than coral sand - its larger rounded pieces and the sand irritates the fishes gills.

loose the big plec and the parrot.
bristlenoses are a better size for a smaller tank imo.

you need to build some rockwork up in the tank to break up the sight lines in the tank.

malawis need to be kept quite highly stocked to reduce agression. if theres not enough fish in their they will pick on one and slowly murder it and move onto the next weakest.
trios of each species would probly be a good start, no interbreeding and making mongrels and the females wont be harrassed too much.
and you need to keep up with the water changes 

all melanochromis are very very agressive - i`d aviod anything with horizontal stripes, demasoni are agressive too.

i`d recommend zebras, labidochromis caereleus, L .fuelleborni, crabro, acei.
all friendly for malawis.

check out ebay and aquarist-classifieds for hobbyist bred fish at good prices too.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

ok so my list of species to looks for is now -
Acei
crabro
labeotropheus fuelleborni
labidochromis caeruleus
tropheops red cheek
blue daktari
labeochromis SP

any of those species.... shame i really like the _pseudotropheous demasoni _they look soooo pretty!


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> ok so my list of species to looks for is now -
> Acei
> crabro
> labeotropheus fuelleborni
> ...


 Id remove the crabro have found them to be very agressive from experience and the demasoni would be fine they are very placid and have a very similar temperament to yellow labs.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

hehehe so one says crabro and another says demasoni

So im gonna go in the middle and says its a personal experience with said fish... ill look for both and see which looks the best at the shop.


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> hehehe so one says crabro and another says demasoni
> 
> So im gonna go in the middle and says its a personal experience with said fish... ill look for both and see which looks the best at the shop.


 I said demasoni as they stay much smaller than crabros, my uncle had a trio and the male was a solid 6" where as the demasoni wont really get past 2", i used to work at fish inc in sheff for a few years and we specialed in wild riff lake cichlids so have a lot of experience through that .


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i`ve always found crabro and venustus and livingstonis very peaceful in spite of their size.

and demasonis to be pocket psychos. and peacocks. dont like peacocks at all

blue dolphins are also good - c moorii

as your tank is quite small it would be best to stick to the more peaceful types.
yellow labs are the biggest softies imo

( used to bred malawis on quite a large scale for many years )


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

pigglywiggly said:


> i`ve always found crabro and venustus and livingstonis very peaceful in spite of their size.
> 
> and demasonis to be pocket psychos. and peacocks. dont like peacocks at all
> 
> ...


 But crabos, and the nimbochromis spp all get quite large as do the moorii.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

not mad axe murderers like melanochromis though are they?

i`ve not had a moorii go more that 4 ish inches


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

you need a mix of coral sand with normal gravel. if you use all coral sand it will irritate the fishes gills. don't use coral gravel- malawi's will dig, & coral gravel will damage their mouths.you should also keep each species in male/female pairs or male/2 females trios- that way each species will mainly fight among themselves rather than with the other fish. a plec will be fine, but not one that grows big- it's a myth that they won't tolerate hard water. & put as many cichlids in as possible- crowding them will dissipate the aggression among them.


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

pigglywiggly said:


> not mad axe murderers like melanochromis though are they?
> 
> i`ve not had a moorii go more that 4 ish inches


 Ive seen some 10" moori in the flesh at a guy down in scarborugh's house they were huge.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

i used to work for the fish people in chester, and waterworld in aberdeen. Ive got a ton of experience with generic livebearers, tetras, barbs, gourami.... but one thing there isnt alot of in the northwest is malawi Chiclids. I wanted a challenge....


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Ive kept african rift lake cichlids a few time on and off but have always prefered american cichlids and oddballs more tbh most of experience is with large perchiforms, potamotrygon and cichla spp.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

im just so excited. Ive always wanted something a bit different, and round here malawis are very different! Cant wait to show you pics!

so any extra tips? what do you feed yours? do you ever give them the occasional frozen blood worms ect?


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> im just so excited. Ive always wanted something a bit different, and round here malawis are very different! Cant wait to show you pics!
> 
> so any extra tips? what do you feed yours? do you ever give them the occasional frozen blood worms ect?


 Hi, they want to be fed on a diet high in fibre, hikari do a good spirulena pellet but its best in flake form, dont feed them bloodworm as it can lead to bloating but frozen daphnia is a good alternative, they seem to love algae wafers aswell. They like brineshrimp and brineshrimp flake aswell and i used to feed mine on spirulena soft pellets by New Era.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

hikari spirulahoinwfvd things,,, yes ive seen them.. they love the sinking catfish pellet i feed my plec, go dotty for it! 

but brineshrimp as a treat maybe once a month. 

 eeeee im going on my 2 hours round trip for tufa rock tonmorrow!!!! its all happening!

any other tips?


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> hikari spirulahoinwfvd things,,, yes ive seen them.. they love the sinking catfish pellet i feed my plec, go dotty for it!
> 
> but brineshrimp as a treat maybe once a month.
> 
> ...


 I used to buy my brinshrimp in kilo slabs so i used to feed it every few days, awesome stuff, i dont know any more tips off of the top of my head but definately look out for some specific books and literture but you'll probs be fine . Make sure to post pix!


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