# Bearded Dragon HELP- lethargic and bloated



## Lain (Feb 5, 2017)

Hi everyone, 
This is my first post, but unfortunately it is not on good terms. :sad:
I own two bearded dragons, Coco, who is now 9, and Spike who is 5. 
This afternoon, I checked on my lizards as I always do, and found poor Spike in a terrible state. 
Crickets seemed to have attacked him and he was bleeding from his belly, tail and his lips _and_ he had runny poo. 
For the whole afternoon I bathed him in warm water with betadine and completely redid his enclosure, replacing the wood shavings with paper towels. 
He lost a lot of blood, and nothing I was doing seemed to stop the bleeding. Eventually, I took a chance and resorted to using flour to stop it. 
The bleeding has stopped, but Spike's conditon has seemed to have worsened 
He is not moving and is so bloated that his feet are not even touching the ground. Every now and then he lifts up his head, opens his mouth and appears to gasp. I am worried that he won't survive much longer, and the exotic vets nearby are all closed already.
I would really really appreciate any help or advice that I can get, I really do not want to loose him :-|
Thank you all in advance.


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## Debbie1962 (Dec 5, 2008)

Sorry but your only option is a vet. They have emergency services which is going to cost you a lot of money I won't lie about it. But it sounds as if he is in an extremely bad way.

I will just point out that you shouldn't be using wood shavings they are very dusty and totally unsuitable for reptiles.


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## Ex0tic (Sep 12, 2016)

He sounds in a bad way... As above emergency services are expensive but its the only option...


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## Lain (Feb 5, 2017)

I appreciate your replies, all the veterinary clinics I've rung have not answered the phone, saying that I have called after hours. I have not yet found one that is open, but I will keep searching.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Lain, I gather you are not in the UK. Over here usually an answerphone message is available detailing the nearest 24/7 vet, but obviously it is different for you.

Hopefully, you can find one soon.


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## Debbie1962 (Dec 5, 2008)

Normally here if I have rung our vets out of hours it goes straight to an emergency out of hours clinic. This is is sad situation for you. All you can do is keep him comfortable as possible. Keep him warm and hydrated. Try a syringe to drop water on his nose to see if he drinks.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Best if luck, I would ask for a D3 serum blood test, one of the most common signs of chronic oversupply of oral D3 is bloating.

Only a good vet can help you now.


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## Lain (Feb 5, 2017)

Thank you so much everyone for trying to help, I really appreciated it. 
Last night we finally managed to find an exotics vet open but a little longer away. The trip was almost an hour, but we got him there, he was just barely holding on.
The vet took him away for examination, only to come back telling me that he had passed shortly after. 


RIP my baby Spike, you will be sorely missed...


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## Azastral (Jun 6, 2015)

To mirror whats already been said, vet is the only option and its pretty urgent.

Hopefully you can get him in and get him sorted.
Some things need to be highlighted though, bleeding from the belly, crickets can and will bite but its not common for them to draw blood, at least not till the point it sounds like what you describe. Do your two bearded dragons share a vivarium?

As John points out, bloating can be a common symptom of oversupply of oral D3 (which is new info for me too... but i also dont supply D3 in any supplements) but bloating can also be a sign of paracite infestation, particularly alongside runny poop, all in all, this makes the vet even more important.

Not to just fix the immediate problem of bleeding and lethagic etc, but also for a proper check up, blood tests, fecal tests and id even say x-ray too and have the vet properly check him out.

Your approach to keeping them will also be worth looking at and changing. Crickets should -never- be left in the vivarium free, so changing how you feed your dragons live food is something you should consider. 

Supplements and what lighting you use (i dont know if you have a UV light in there, or what supplements and food you supply, but it would be worth either going through it all here or going away and digging for information to learn more about their environment and dietary needs).

The substrate (floor covering) you use, as mentioned, woodchips/shavings are really not suitable, theres a variety of ways to do it, but woodchips/shavings is not what you want to be doing. (But good move in swapping for paper towel while you get him sorted and healthy again)

For now, focus on getting him better, but i would also say, come back and use these forums more and with luck we can help improve your knowledge and ability to care for you beardies.


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## Debbie1962 (Dec 5, 2008)

So sorry to hear the sad news but I am not really surprised as he did sound too far gone. Are you getting a post mortem done to see what caused his death?


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## Lain (Feb 5, 2017)

Hi Debbie, It wasn't suggested to me to do so, and I guess I was too upset to think to ask about getting an autopsy. :sad:
I've already buried him and put his favourite rock near him, so unfortunately it is too late. 
The vet nurse did say that she had seen nothing quite like it before, and she was confused as to how he bled so much through such a small piercing. 
Sorry I feel so stupid for not knowing already, but what is the issue with vitamin D3 ? I haven't even heard of it to be honest. 

Also, in regards to their housing, both lizards were kept separately, each in 4ft tanks. 
They each had UV lighting, Repti Globe Compact UVB10.0 EXO 13W to be exact, and basking heat lamps as well (I've forgotten the brand and type, but they were what the petshop staff recommended). Both lizards had rocks underneath the globes, around 35cm below. 
The lights remain on from about 7:30am to 6pm daily. 
They are fed carrot, kale, strawberries, rose petals, dandelions, beans, squash and zucchini among others. Carrot was always a favourite.
Calcium dusted crickets are given daily, and they always eat them all by the next day (I check every morning), however in Spike's case, they managed to breed beforehand (I must've missed a few crickets). I got as many of them out as I could but it was extremely difficult as they were so small. 
I used to house them on coconut fibre, and it was great, however the petshop stopped buying from the supplier, so I've been using heat treated, supposedly dust free wood chips for the past 3 years.
I did not realise that it was bad for them, as I never had any issues. 
But now that I know, I would really like to switch. 
Any recommendations would be appreciated, or should I see if I can find some coco fibre online ?
Also, should I start a new thread for this?
Thank you everyone.


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## Lain (Feb 5, 2017)

I don't mean to bump this up or anything, but I just wanted to ask, is this forum for U.K. residents only ? 
Because I'm actually from Australia :blush:
(Sorry, I really should've mention that earlier).


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## Ex0tic (Sep 12, 2016)

I'm very sorry for you're loss... Anyone can use the forum as far as I know


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## Debbie1962 (Dec 5, 2008)

Anyone can post here so your ok.

I thought you said earlier that they were wood shavings which is what we use for keeping rabbits etc on. But wood chips are not good either and can be ingested along with food and cause a blockage. It is possible that this was the cause but then again it could have been one of many things. As long as you don't overdose on the supplements that contain D3 then that wouldn't be the cause either.

As for substrate you can use either a fine childrens play sand or a sand/soil mix which seems to be the way most people are going at the moment.

Repti Globe Compacts are not the best as far as I know if I am thinking abut the correct thing. You are better off with a long uv tube preferably by someone like arcadia.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Lain said:


> I don't mean to bump this up or anything, but I just wanted to ask, is this forum for U.K. residents only ?
> Because I'm actually from Australia :blush:
> (Sorry, I really should've mention that earlier).


As Debbie said you are more than welcome to use the Forum :2thumb: I only pointed out that you were not UK based we couldn't recommend a vet.

Sorry to read what happened though.


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## Azastral (Jun 6, 2015)

When i posted earlier i didnt realise he had actually passed away, so im sorry about that.

As for UV lighting, Compact bulbs can damage their eye sight (the bulbs that look a bit like a tube tied into a knot). There are many different styles, but a linear (straight tube) uv bulb is best for a whole variety of reasons. look for ones about two thirds of the vivarium length or a little over that.

For substrate, if you are from Oz then you will know what these guys live on! Compacted earth, clay, rock and often a loose top layer.
Many people use a mix of topsoil and sand along with large stones for basking areas etc. I add some clay based substrate to the soil.sand mix with mine and i think it works really well, doesnt dry out and turn to dust either.

If you are using UV then you should be careful to make sure ALL supplements you use do not contain D3, it should show it on the label. If you are still in Oz and have a garden area, you have got the perfect environment for them already so occational time in the garden (in an enclosure) is really beneficial. Nothing compares to proper natural sunlight. D3 is something they produce themselves through basking in UV (sunlight) and is part of the way they process calcium, its hugely important to their biology (to many many animals actually) but if you have UV and provide it in a supplement then they overdose on D3 which can cause big problems (like John mentioned)

With the lights, 6:30am to 8:30pm with the UV during summer (14 hours) and then you can drop it down to 12 in autumn and spring, 10 during winter...mimic the daylight times a little bit. With the basking lamp, id have it turning off an hour before the UV and coming on 30 mins after the UV (again, trying to copy nature a little bit with how it heats up/cools down)


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## Lain (Feb 5, 2017)

Hello everyone, so Coco is an eastern bearded dragon, which, unlike the more commonly owned central bearded dragon, are not typically found in desert environments. 
Instead, eastern bearded dragons are found in bushlands, scrub, temperate forests, and even urban areas. 
In fact, I saw a wild one perched upon a letterbox while walking down the street just the other day ! :roll:  :lol:
Trees and branches are very important to them, as they need to be able to survey their territory from a high point, and, in their natural environment, the ground is often covered with bark, leaf litter and other bits and pieces of organic matter, and they love to burrow underneath it all. 
Now, I have access to plenty of safe, nontoxic, pesticide-and-fertilisers-free leaflitter, bark and the like, and although these materials would prove to be aesthetically pleasing and possibly beneficial to Coco, it heightens the risk of crickets hiding and breeding inside the tank, and it will be difficult to get rid of them.
I was thinking that next best thing would be what is underneath the leaf litter- a sandy soil. In addition, I was thinking of adding maybe a juniper, a few lithops, and some kind of grass (not sure what type, suggestions are welcome !) and by using a sand/ soil mix, this could be made possible (I know it will be difficult, but I'm up for the challenge!). 
So, Azastral, I was wondering, where do you source the soil you use in your mix from ? How do you make sure it is free of fertiliser, pesticides and other harmful material ?

I am also really open to any other recommendations for substrate and plants, so please don't be shy, I'd love to hear your ideas ! 

PS. The photos show eastern bearded dragon habitats, and a wild eastern bearded dragon just in case you weren't familiar with them- not actually Coco, but really similar colouration, markings and build !  
PPS. I will try and take a good photo of him tomorrow 

Image Sources: 

https://urbandaisy.wordpress.com/category/australian-bush/

Bearded Dragon (Pogona barbata)

https://eremophila.wordpress.com/tag/australian-bush/


Images:


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Thanks for updating and providing the links etc - the last picture should have shown a kangeroo! :lol2:


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## Azastral (Jun 6, 2015)

Many garden centres sell topsoil by the bag, you want sterilised limefree quality topsoil, the packaging will say if it has added fertiliser etc.

Sounds like you are going the more bio-active route, good luck with it all!


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## Lain (Feb 5, 2017)

Aha I suppose I am. 
I found this soil, it doesn't appear to have any fertilisers, do you think it will be suitable ? 
https://www.bunnings.com.au/brunnings-50l-soil-improver-garden-soil_p3020087
Also, what other plants might be okay to plant in with Coco ? I'm particularly looking for grass types, but any suggestions would be fantastic. 
I think I'll try and go get the materials tomorrow.


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## Debbie1962 (Dec 5, 2008)

The link is not showing the compost you are asking about.

Real plants may get trashed by your beardie. Whatever you choose will need to be resistant to the high temps needed for your beardie.


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