# Expensive Mongrels..



## Sam'n'Droo (May 31, 2008)

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed the price of mongrels rising at a daft rate recently?? I have seen a litter of dogs advertised as 'staffy crosses' parents are both mixed crosses, half this quarter that, and yet the pups come with a price tag of £250!! There are so many odd crosses available and with ridiculous price tags!! I have nothing against mixed breeds, but dislike the idea of breeding crosses with the intention of giving the pups a daft name and selling them for a packet!! There must be some complete plonkers out there, buying these cross breeds and paying the silly prices.


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Sam'n'Droo said:


> Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed the price of mongrels rising at a daft rate recently?? I have seen a litter of dogs advertised as 'staffy crosses' parents are both mixed crosses, half this quarter that, and yet the pups come with a price tag of £250!! There are so many odd crosses available and with ridiculous price tags!! I have nothing against mixed breeds, but dislike the idea of breeding crosses with the intention of giving the pups a daft name and selling them for a packet!! There must be some complete plonkers out there, buying these cross breeds and paying the silly prices.


 So what is it that upsets you so much? Is it the fact that someone is doing something you disapprove of, or that some people prefer mixed breed dogs? Price tags mean nothing. I could breed a litter of something and advertise them for £1000 a piece. It won't mean that I'd actually sell any of them at that price though.
If a 'plonker' uses their own money, to buy whatever puppy they want, why would it cause you so much upset?
Now if said 'Plonker' asked you to pay for the pup for them, I could understand your outrage but since they haven't I can't see what the problem is.
I suppose it's a bit like people breeding odd coloured lizards and snakes and calling them funny names and wanting more money for them. But since I won't be buying them and since nobody wants me to pay for one, I can't see why it's worth raising my blood pressure for.


----------



## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> So what is it that upsets you so much? Is it the fact that someone is doing something you disapprove of, or that some people prefer mixed breed dogs? Price tags mean nothing. I could breed a litter of something and advertise them for £1000 a piece. It won't mean that I'd actually sell any of them at that price though.
> If a 'plonker' uses their own money, to buy whatever puppy they want, why would it cause you so much upset?
> Now if said 'Plonker' asked you to pay for the pup for them, I could understand your outrage but since they haven't I can't see what the problem is.
> I suppose it's a bit like people breeding odd coloured lizards and snakes and calling them funny names and wanting more money for them. But since I won't be buying them and since nobody wants me to pay for one, I can't see why it's worth raising my blood pressure for.image


:notworthy: 

A dog is worth what somebody wants to pay for it, nobody is saying you have to pay for it so what's the problem? I do have an issue with people calling them silly names though, but that's because I'm picky! It's not a "Jug" it's a Jack russel terrier x Pug, and so on... I love some certain cross breeds (such as Springer x Cocker spaniels), and would pay the same for them as I would for a 'pedigree' dog, some would say I'm stupid for that but if it's me that's paying out for it then it has bugger all to do with them! :whistling2:


----------



## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

some of them are a good idea tho... such as the alaskan klee kai, alaskan huskies, siberian huskies, american eskino dogs and schipperkes crossed to make a small huskie, great for those who love the huskie looks but in a much smaller package.


----------



## Shelley66 (Feb 19, 2007)

Sam'n'Droo said:


> Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed the price of mongrels rising at a daft rate recently?? I have seen a litter of dogs advertised as 'staffy crosses' parents are both mixed crosses, half this quarter that, and yet the pups come with a price tag of £250!! There are so many odd crosses available and with ridiculous price tags!! I have nothing against mixed breeds, but dislike the idea of breeding crosses with the intention of giving the pups a daft name and selling them for a packet!! There must be some complete plonkers out there, buying these cross breeds and paying the silly prices.


I completely agree with you. All my dogs are pedigree and come from health tested Kennel Club registered parents, and all but my youngest come from show lines. Which is why I paid the price I did.

If I wanted something that wasn't so well bred I would go and adopt from The Dogs Trust not pay stupid money!


----------



## Sam'n'Droo (May 31, 2008)

I don't have an issue with people breeding crosses. People will breed what they want. I agree there are some lovely looking mixes. I love all dogs, mutts mongrels crosses pedigrees, whatever they are. I was just commenting that there seem to be so many people creating new crosses with daft names and asking for quite a bit of money. I know people will pay what they like for a dog of their choosing. It doesn't upset me or neither am I affected by it. I was just surprised at how many crosses are being advertised for the same amount as a pedigree.


----------



## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Isn't every dog a crossbreed / mongrel? a £2000 pure pedigree KC registered dog is still a crossbreed but it's just been registered as it's own breed.


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> :notworthy:
> 
> A dog is worth what somebody wants to pay for it, nobody is saying you have to pay for it so what's the problem? I do have an issue with people calling them silly names though, but that's because I'm picky! It's not a "Jug" it's a Jack russel terrier x Pug, and so on... I love some certain cross breeds (such as Springer x Cocker spaniels), and would pay the same for them as I would for a 'pedigree' dog, some would say I'm stupid for that but if it's me that's paying out for it then it has bugger all to do with them! :whistling2:


 I don't personally find these names given to crossbreds half as annoying as abbreviations of purebred dog names like 'jack' instead of jack russell terrier/jack russell, and shiddy for shih-tzu, or dachsie for dachshund etc.
I too will pay whatever I want for a crossbred of choice. My Ursa cost me £350 and he's worth every penny. I would love another coltriever (border collie cross golden retriver) as my previous one was bloody amazing and I'd happily pay the same for one of them, as a purebred golden retriever would cost.
I may look on in gobsmacked-ness when someone pays £200 or more for a mobile phone, or spends £20 on a takeaway meal I know I could make for a fiver, or someone who spends £40 on booze down the pub, but as long as they don't expect me to be putting my hand in my pocket, I'm not going to worry about it.


----------



## diamondlil (May 7, 2008)

I wouldn't really say £250 is silly money for a healthy puppy. That's about what I paid for my crossbreed. As Rosie's a traditional cross for a small lurcher (Bedlington x whippet) I don't consider her one of the 'designer crosses' though. 
And my personal stance on the craze for crosses is pretty neutral. If both parents are healthy and the puppies are what someone wants, what's the problem? At least you may stand a chance of avoiding some of the inherited problems in some purebred dogs.


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Shelley66 said:


> I completely agree with you. All my dogs are pedigree and come from health tested Kennel Club registered parents, and all but my youngest come from show lines. Which is why I paid the price I did.
> 
> If I wanted something that wasn't so well bred I would go and adopt from The Dogs Trust not pay stupid money!


 Luckily we all have a choice. You choose to go with purebred dogs. I wouldn't give you £50 for a purebred newfoundland, but I was more than happy to spend £350 on my lovely newfoundland cross rottweiller. As for the dog's trust, if you just wanted a dog, an adult of some kind and had no preference as to size, sex, age, coat type and temperament, then no doubt the dog's trust would be as good a place as any especially if you wanted a staffy cross or a rotty cross. But if you wanted something specific like my Ursa, or my old collie cross rertiever, and wanted a particular sex and a puppy, then you won't find it in any dog's home.
You are happy with your purebred dogs, you are happy to have paid the price you did. I am happy with my crossbred dogs. I am happy to have paid the price I did. Now why should that upset or bother you since it doesn't affect you one way or the other?


----------



## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> I may look on in gobsmacked-ness when someone spends £20 on a takeaway meal I know I could make for a fiver, .


i wish i could.. i made a curry tonight for 4 people and it probably cost me more than £20


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Meko said:


> i wish i could.. i made a curry tonight for 4 people and it probably cost me more than £20


 A lot will depend on what the ingredients are and where you buy them I suppose. I buy a lot of locally grown stuff and have a pretty extensive store cupboard so I know I could make a meal for 4 people for around a tenner which would inclide a dessert too. 
If you live where there is a large Asian population, I'd recommend using Asian shops for the bulk of the ingredients, especially the curry itself.Asian shops are really cheap because canny Asian people tend not to do much supermarket shopping where prices are very high and quality not so high :whistling2:
I rarely shop in supermarkets either which I why I cook very cheaply.


----------



## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

My problem is that people give it a silly name, put on a huge price tag, some celebrity buys it an dit becomes the latest fad. just like the Labradoodle. Everyone wanted one, all and sundry saw the price tag and wanted to breed them to make a 'quick buck', people bought them on a whim so they could have the latest thing, and then there were dozens in rescue. I know of a vet asked to put a full litter of unsold 12 week old pups to sleep as they were unsold once the craze started to go out and the credit crunch started. 

On top of that, people rarely health test and the hip scores done so far on labradoodles show it is nothing to be complacent about. 

It's not the dogs themselves, and if people health test parents and breed responsibly then I don't have such a problem with it, but the fact is, the maojority of people aren't doing that.


----------



## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> A lot will depend on what the ingredients are and where you buy them I suppose. I buy a lot of locally grown stuff and have a pretty extensive store cupboard so I know I could make a meal for 4 people for around a tenner which would inclide a dessert too.
> If you live where there is a large Asian population, I'd recommend using Asian shops for the bulk of the ingredients, especially the curry itself.Asian shops are really cheap because canny Asian people tend not to do much supermarket shopping where prices are very high and quality not so high :whistling2:
> I rarely shop in supermarkets either which I why I cook very cheaply.


part of the cost was probably down to the fact that i wanted enough to do a few lunches as well.. so it was £6 for two chickens and £3 for a couple of crap lamb chops.. All had to be supermarket as it was a 4pm on a Sunday decision.. 
Although on the bright side, i cut all the meat off the chickens and then slung the carcass to the dogs for their tea.

The curry itself, i buy these 5 X HOT CURRY KITS, VINDALOO, JAZFREZI, MADRAS, PHAAL on eBay (end time 09-Dec-09 16:52:53 GMT) and each one makes about 10 curries so it's pretty good value for money - just a bag of the spices you need.


----------



## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

From mutts to curry.

Only on RFUK.


----------



## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

and we've not even mentioned Korea.....


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Meko said:


> part of the cost was probably down to the fact that i wanted enough to do a few lunches as well.. so it was £6 for two chickens and £3 for a couple of crap lamb chops.. All had to be supermarket as it was a 4pm on a Sunday decision..
> Although on the bright side, i cut all the meat off the chickens and then slung the carcass to the dogs for their tea.
> 
> The curry itself, i buy these 5 X HOT CURRY KITS, VINDALOO, JAZFREZI, MADRAS, PHAAL on eBay (end time 09-Dec-09 16:52:53 GMT) and each one makes about 10 curries so it's pretty good value for money - just a bag of the spices you need.



I don't think that's good value for those kit things at all. You'd get the same stuff from an Asian shop for a couple of quid.
I suppose I'm lucky that my meat is free. I just have to go out and kill a cockerel or two. Otherwise, my chicken would cost at least £6 each as I refuse to have anything to do with factory farmed meat and from what I've seen , a free range chicken costs about £6. But you could have done a beef curry much cheaper by using something like beef skirt or ox cheek. I buy beef skirt from my local butcher who rears his own beasts and it only costs £2.95 per lb. Perfect for slow cooking.


----------



## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> I don't think that's good value for those kit things at all. You'd get the same stuff from an Asian shop for a couple of quid.
> I suppose I'm lucky that my meat is free. I just have to go out and kill a cockerel or two. Otherwise, my chicken would cost at least £6 each as I refuse to have anything to do with factory farmed meat and from what I've seen , a free range chicken costs about £6. But you could have done a beef curry much cheaper by using something like beef skirt or ox cheek. I buy beef skirt from my local butcher who rears his own beasts and it only costs £2.95 per lb. Perfect for slow cooking.


 
I'm wanting to get a whole Venison. Yup, the whole lot, but can I find anywhere with whole deer for sale in this side of Lancs, I can I beggerer lol


----------



## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

around here its alsations + curry ( allegedly )

i like springerdors myself, springer x labrador, but when anyone makes some around here all the shooting people grab them quick smart.
and i`d happily pay the 250 they ask.

you pays your money and takes your choice, its not like anyones forcing you to buy a pup.
personally i get the pup that fits in with my life, rather than pick on looks, if it happens to be chunky with a face thats been hit by a bus, even better!


----------



## RhianB87 (Oct 25, 2009)

I think I would happily pay more for a dog I knew that was healthy and had a good temperment whatever its silly name. 

Personally I prefer crosses but thats just my opinion, ive got friends who would never get anything apart from pedigrees but everyone has their own reasons why.

Hybrid Dog, Designer Dog, Hybrid Dogs, Designer Dogs

This shows the huge amount of types of cross breeds people have now, some are just a bit strange

I guess mine would technically be called a whipback :Na_Na_Na_Na: hmm I think I will just stick with saying he is a whippit x ridgeback


----------



## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

I do agree with the OP in many ways.

The work that has gone into a good pedigree is quite a lot, not just from a care pespective but things like lineage and genetics need to be considered. Obviously those things are out of the window when you start crossing. Obviously you could get some very caring people producing cross breeds/mongrels that have cared for mum and pups brilliantly and all of them happen to be healthy etc, but no consideration to the lineage has been made. Also what about health tests? Well they won't carry them out because they'll say they're cross breeds and don't need it/aren't worth it. But it is about what is crossed too, you could cross a Pug to a Chihuahua for example and still get eye problems because both breeds have that trait. Not all crosses are immediately healthier.

If people prefer crosses I would urge them to take on rescue dogs/pups and not keep such a breeder in profit. Buying such dogs from "breeders" is not exactly promoting good breeder ethics in my opinion. 

As for the price tag, although I don't really agree with it in the first place, obviously a cross breed or mongrel should not cost as much as a good pedigree, that's just common sense isn't it?? It doesn't bother me that much because I know i'd never pay it, but it does make me wonder why on earth people would pay the same price. I can't think of any logical explanation.


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

diamondlil said:


> And my personal stance on the craze for crosses is pretty neutral. If both parents are healthy and the puppies are what someone wants, what's the problem? At least you may stand a chance of avoiding some of the inherited problems in some purebred dogs.


Myth. You actually run the risk of getting inherant problems from both breeds you cross.

It's simple biology, you cross two unhealthy dogs, you'll get unhealthy pups. Doesnt matter whether they're pedigree or not.

I wouldn't pay £250+ for a mongrel. There are plenty in rescue at half that price (neutered, chipped and vaccinated) and you know you're not lining irresponsible breeders pockets.

No reputable or responsible breeder breeds crossbreeds. They find the best of the breed they love and work to improve it - or they should adopt and spay.


----------



## Rum_Kitty (Jun 14, 2009)

I still have to say if someone offered me 250 to buy a staffie cross mutt thingie or 2000 (or whatever other price they are going for) to buy a genetic timebomb bulldog I'd take the staff cross. People can argue about reputable breeding, fair enough, but I still reckon the mongrel would have a better chance at being healthy than a fair whack of the pedigrees out there.

Personally I think everybody should be doing a little less dog breeding, that goes for your backyard chavs and top class breeders. There's just too many pups and not enough half decent owners!


----------



## sizedoesn'tmatter (Jan 24, 2009)

Not all breeders cross to make a 'quick buck' the breeder of my older dog (utonaganxBI) crossed her ute with BI because she wanted to open out the ute gene pool as part of a project with other breeders. 2 puppies were kept within her group of colleagues to pass on the genes the other pups were sold on the condition that they were neutered. We paid the price we did because we wanted a wolf lookalike dog, we wanted a puppy with a known history and of all the breeders we talked to we liked her ethics and the way she kept her dogs.
It's not always a black and white issue.
Just my 2 pennies worth!


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Well ethics are very personal. I dont think you can compare someone opening the gene pool to someone saying they're making healthier dogs than pedigrees purely for the sake of a couple of hundred quid a pup.

Sadly the dog breeding world is filled with irresponsible breeders who will say anything to make a few quid. I wish there was some form of licensing and basic competence test (along with regular monitoring of the conditions) for breeders. I know it's impossible though.

You'll find the majority of people defending the breeding of designer crosses are those breeding them or those who've been duped into the "hybrid vigour" argument and handed over their money.

If you want a crossbreed, there's already thousands upon thousands needing homes. Same goes for pedigrees in some cases.

I'm not against responsible breeding, and opening up the gene pool is very different to someone saying "these labradoodles dont moult" or "pedigrees are all unhealthy so my crossbreed pups are a bargain for a guaranteed healthy dog" when they've not done any of the breed relevent health checks.


----------



## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

So, is it 'acceptable' to cross breed two health tested dogs with good results, who have no breed issues that would increase or cause more problems then the breeds already have, if it's to create a 'better' dog?


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Pimperella said:


> I'm wanting to get a whole Venison. Yup, the whole lot, but can I find anywhere with whole deer for sale in this side of Lancs, I can I beggerer lol


Sometimes they have deer at Melton Mowbray market and there is a venison farmer not far from me but that's not much help to you though sorry.


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> So, is it 'acceptable' to cross breed two health tested dogs with good results, who have no breed issues that would increase or cause more problems then the breeds already have, if it's to create a 'better' dog?


Theoretically it would be better (IMO) than your average BYB. But it'd still be increasing the number of mongrels needing homes. You'd be hard pushed to find a breeder who would let two top breeding quality purebred dogs go to someone to crossbreed. Our purebreeds are buggered up enough without people pinching the best dogs to make more mongrels - something the world has plenty of! :lol2:


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

mattm said:


> I do agree with the OP in many ways.
> 
> The work that has gone into a good pedigree is quite a lot, not just from a care pespective but things like lineage and genetics need to be considered. Obviously those things are out of the window when you start crossing. Obviously you could get some very caring people producing cross breeds/mongrels that have cared for mum and pups brilliantly and all of them happen to be healthy etc, but no consideration to the lineage has been made. Also what about health tests? Well they won't carry them out because they'll say they're cross breeds and don't need it/aren't worth it.


Would you mind not generalising and assuming things please?
I have bred crosses and my breeding stock have been tested for the most common problems, like for instance PRA in the lhasa apsos. What you seem to be saying is that breeders of cross bred puppies do no health testing while all breeders of purebred puppies health test their breeding stock and we all know this not to be true. Cross bred breeders are generally no more or no less likely to have stock tested or not tested than anyone breeding purebred dogs. If you want to say the contrary, I'd be interested to see evidence to back your argument up.





> If people prefer crosses I would urge them to take on rescue dogs/pups and not keep such a breeder in profit. Buying such dogs from "breeders" is not exactly promoting good breeder ethics in my opinion.


So, if someone wants for example, a cavalier cross chihuahua puppy, or a poodle cross cocker spaniel puppy, they will find one at the rescue centre you 'urge' them to go to will they? What do you consider good breeder ethics and how many breeders of purebred dogs, would meet your imagined standard?



> As for the price tag, although I don't really agree with it in the first place, obviously a cross breed or mongrel should not cost as much as a good pedigree, that's just common sense isn't it??


 Is it? Presumably the vet doesn't offer a discount to PRA test, hip score, heart test a crossbred dog? Presumably it costs the same to worm, vaccinate, feed and care for a crossbred dog? So why is it common sense?
As for value, even within purebred dogs, there is a variance in price. I could buy a GSD or Rottweiller puppy for as little as £200, or I could buy one for £1000. So what? 



> It doesn't bother me that much because I know i'd never pay it, but it does make me wonder why on earth people would pay the same price. I can't think of any logical explanation.


 The logical explanation is choice and whether they can afford it. As I said previously, I can't understand anyone paying £200 for a mobile phone but I know people who do. I do not understand anyone who primarily calls people using their mobile phone, since it costs a fortune, but I know people do. Do I tell them that they shouldn't use their mobile phone, but should use a phone box in order to stop lining the pockets of rip off mobile phone suppliers? Do I tell them not to turn their central heating on, but to burn some broken pallets because all energy suppliers are thieves and ripoff merchants who make a profit out of poor people? Personally I think that everyone should be allowed the choice to do what the heck they want with their money, whether it's pay a fortune on cars, smoking, booze, mobile phones, holidays abroad or pets.


----------



## sizedoesn'tmatter (Jan 24, 2009)

I think its up to the buyer to check that they are supporting the right kind of breeders with their hard earned cash...

For example we emailed and then spoke to several breeders of the kind of dog we were looking for. 

When we found the breeder we liked we chatted over the 'phone and it was clear that she wasn't going to let that pup go with just anyone - we were given a grilling and rightly so. We then looked further at her website and could see that we liked the way she kept her dogs and that they were still pets not just 'breeders'. 

We then drove 5 hours (each way) to meet her and the bitch and her other dogs. We saw pictures of the sire and were given contact details for his owners including websites. We saw both parents hip scores and checked out the dogs and their conditions for ourselves. At this point everything was still very much whether we approved of the breeder and that she approved of us - both parties could have walked away.

We decided to go ahead and agreed to have the pup once he was ready, 2 weeks later. From then on we were in nearly daily contact. She made sure we had everything in place in terms of our home, registering with vets etc. etc. She only let the puppy go when she thought he was completely ready and once we had him home she was available 24/7 by text, phone and email for all our new puppy owners angst! 

18 months later she's still a good friend and we've since bought another of her puppies (Loki's half brother) and had the same exemplary practise.

If only all breeders were as responsible...


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

It is their choice, but IMO it is money wasted on people with no ethical standards.

If the breeders dogs were as healthy and sound examples as they imagine them to be, they would be using them towards bettering the state of purebreed dogs now. Or their original breeders would be.

There is no logical reason to breed crossbreeds other than for profit. There are thousands of dogs in rescues, if people cant find their chosen breed in a rescue, they should pick one or the other and go to a responsible breeder who health tests, and is breeding for a purpose (eg to bring purebreeds back to good standards before they slip any further).

Breeding mongrels is like saying "my pups are better than those in rescue and are more deserving". We all know that's ridiculous but while there's a market, there's always some irresponsible person willing to cater to it.

Sadly many of their animals are living in very poor conditions.


----------



## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> It is their choice, but IMO it is money wasted on people with no ethical standards.


So mutt breeders have no ethical standards?



> There is no logical reason to breed crossbreeds other than for profit.


Nah, you're right, they'd never cross two breeds to make a 'better' dog, would they? :whistling2:



> Breeding mongrels is like saying "my pups are better than those in rescue and are more deserving".


Breeding 'pure' bred dogs is like saying "my pups are better than those in rescue and are more deserving". We all know that's ridiculous but whilst there's a market, there's always somebody willing to cater for it.

Sadly many of their animals are living in very poor conditions. : victory:


----------



## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

LoveForLizards said:


> So mutt breeders have no ethical standards?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here here! Just because someone breeds mongrels doesn't necessarily mean their conditions/attitudes are worse than pedigree breeders!


----------



## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*mongrel v pedigree*

I personally wouldn't buy off of someone whose only motive was to make money.If someone was dedicated to a line of lurchers for instance and bred a litter to produce a pup for themselves ,then as long as the pups had been produced in the best possible conditions with the same care as a pedigree then I would be happy to pay for such a pup.Likewise I would only buy a pedigree from someone who was dedicated to the breed and was producing a litter to continue their line and produce healthy/quality pups and not simply viewing a bitch as a cash cow.I very much like the old tyme bulldogs and I think the initial motive in breeding them was genuine.Now the world and their friend are at it,money,money ,money.....


----------



## diamondlil (May 7, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> It is their choice, but IMO it is money wasted on people with no ethical standards.
> 
> If the breeders dogs were as healthy and sound examples as they imagine them to be, they would be using them towards bettering the state of purebreed dogs now. Or their original breeders would be.
> 
> ...


Lisa, you can't actually get lurchers without cross-breeding! My puppy comes from working lines, bred for soundness. I didn't want a whippet or a bedlington, I wanted the small lurcher the cross makes! I'd have happily taken on a rescue of the same cross, but couldn't find any. Before you ask, yes the bedlington mum was free of copper toxicosis.


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I have no problem with people breeding for the betterment of the dogs, whether that's in health, longevity, temperament. To me that is irregardless of whether the dog is a "pedigree", although that is simplifying things as there are major issues in both types of breeding, especially with breeding crosses (eg. problems with reliability, similarity and therefore predictability health wise). However, sadly, the majority of breeding of dogs in this country does not fall into that bracket. 

What people pay for a dog to me is noone's business but their own. If they're stupid enough to pay £250 for a dog with no health tests, vaccinations or neutering done, then more fool them. Likewise if they're willing to pay £1500 for (for example) a british bulldog. My vision of a good breeder charges what is necessary and fitting to fairly represent the amount of cost put into it, balanced with a realistic comparison to others. Ultimately though as long as they are breeding healthy and happy dogs and not just churning out crap, then it's up to them - if they can get it great.


----------



## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Pimperella said:


> I'm wanting to get a whole Venison. Yup, the whole lot, but can I find anywhere with whole deer for sale in this side of Lancs, I can I beggerer lol


i got offered 4 halves for £100 but i told them it was _'too dear'.._


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

diamondlil said:


> Lisa, you can't actually get lurchers without cross-breeding! My puppy comes from working lines, bred for soundness. I didn't want a whippet or a bedlington, I wanted the small lurcher the cross makes! I'd have happily taken on a rescue of the same cross, but couldn't find any. Before you ask, yes the bedlington mum was free of copper toxicosis.


Having run one of the most popular lurcher and greyhound forums (in it's time) and having owned greys and lurchers myself, I'm well aware of that, although I do think there are plenty lurchers in rescue if people want a pet lurcher, I do understand that working "breeds" are a whole different ball game. Of course for a working home pups are needed, but for pets - there's plenty in rescues being overlooked - why breed any more to take their homes away from them?

And L4L - IMO - which I am entitled to - no-one breeding mongrels for pet homes (eg non-working) is a good breeder. As 9 times out of 10 they are breeding from pet not breeding quality dogs who have not been health tested, and at least half the time (if not more) they are unsure of their parentage at all! Just because one or two breeders feel they can justify their urge to have pups by making unpredictable mongrels (in that they cant say it'll look like one, or act like the other etc) then that doesn't make it right. Do you know how many dogs are put to sleep because people want to make cute puppies and make a few bob on the side? You cant make a "better dog" out of naff quality pedigrees. Do you believe in hybrid vigour?

Breeding should be left to those doing it for a purpose (other than profit or the aww factor). Be that to better a purebreed (god knows they need it) or to produce a working dog, that's fine.

I'm not breedist - I know that 9 times out of 10 pedigree breeders are crap too - I just think that multiplying and breeding are two different things. There are irresponsible breeders doing pedigrees too - of course - just that IMO (again my PERSONAL opinion you dont have to agree with) there is no such thing as a responsible mongrel breeder (unless for a working purpose).

And that is my opinion, I am entitled to it - you dont need to "prove" me wrong by twisting it round.


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Meko said:


> i got offered 4 halves for £100 but i told them it was _'too dear'.._



Arrrrrgh, read my sig' and please don't make me laugh. Can anyone lend me a tena?:lol2::lol2:


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

jerboa said:


> I think its up to the buyer to check that they are supporting the right kind of breeders with their hard earned cash...
> 
> For example we emailed and then spoke to several breeders of the kind of dog we were looking for.
> 
> ...


 I was wondering if we had met because the scenario you described re the breeder of your dog, sounded like me, until I saw the 5 hours drive, then I realised it couldn't be me as I have refused to sell a pup which was to have a 5 hour journey to it's new home. For one because I think that's too long a car ride for a little pup and secondly because under the terms of my contract, should anything go wrong, the dog has to come back to me and I'd bet that in that case the owner wouldn't want the hassle of driving 10 hours to return it and I'd be hard pushed to be able to make the time to do the trip. Otherwise, everything you described, was just how I operate. I turn away 8 out of 10 people who enquire about my puppies because for one reason or another, they don't meet my criteria.


----------



## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

> What you seem to be saying is that breeders of cross bred puppies do no health testing while all breeders of purebred puppies health test their breeding stock and we all know this not to be true. Cross bred breeders are generally no more or no less likely to have stock tested or not tested than anyone breeding purebred dogs.


No that is not what i'm saying. I am saying that a *far less *number of cross bred breeders will do health tests than those that breed pedigree dogs. That is common sense. How many cross bred/mongrel puppies have you heard of or seen advertised that say the parents were health checked? Because I have seen a total of *0.

*


> So, if someone wants for example, a cavalier cross chihuahua puppy, or a poodle cross cocker spaniel puppy, they will find one at the rescue centre you 'urge' them to go to will they? What do you consider good breeder ethics and how many breeders of purebred dogs, would meet your imagined standard?


Why would someone want such a specific cross?? The odds of someone wanting something so specific are miniscule. For the small amount that do want them, they probably would find them in a rescue, yes. I don't know what you mean by my "imagined standard" care to elaborate? This must be something you have fabricated. Obviously you feel compelled to question my justified post because you produce such animals. I would like to ask you why you choose to produce cross breeds?? What reasons do you believe there are for it??



> Is it? Presumably the vet doesn't offer a discount to PRA test, hip score, heart test a crossbred dog? Presumably it costs the same to worm, vaccinate, feed and care for a crossbred dog? So why is it common sense?
> As for value, even within purebred dogs, there is a variance in price. I could buy a GSD or Rottweiller puppy for as little as £200, or I could buy one for £1000. So what?


You have hit the nail on the head. It depends what the breeder is producing. If the breeder buys two excellent but different pedigree dogs with the intention of crossing them, then yes, they'll have to fork out a lot of money for both parents. If you are buying cross bred animals to then breed, your expenditure is likely to be lower and so no, you should not be asking for as much money for the pups. Surely the purchasing of the breeding animals in the first place is also a consideration?



> The logical explanation is choice and whether they can afford it. As I said previously, I can't understand anyone paying £200 for a mobile phone but I know people who do. I do not understand anyone who primarily calls people using their mobile phone, since it costs a fortune, but I know people do. Do I tell them that they shouldn't use their mobile phone, but should use a phone box in order to stop lining the pockets of rip off mobile phone suppliers? Do I tell them not to turn their central heating on, but to burn some broken pallets because all energy suppliers are thieves and ripoff merchants who make a profit out of poor people? Personally I think that everyone should be allowed the choice to do what the heck they want with their money, whether it's pay a fortune on cars, smoking, booze, mobile phones, holidays abroad or pets.


Well no, but I haven't *told* anyone to do anything, anywhere. I am giving my opinion. If you are suggesting that the same amount of work goes into producing cross breeds and mongrels as pedigree dogs more than 50% of the time then please do share your theories and evidence for this, because I am most interested. You may personally spend that much money/time/care into breeding your cross breeds but you can't honestly say that this is common! It isn't at all. In fact I would go as far to *guess *that most "designer" expensive cross breeds are bred for the SOLE reason of money making, and the cutie eye catching names only acts as a marketing technique.


----------



## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

Sorry the post is so long, I couldn't snippet the quotes without the post no longer making sense.


----------



## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

mattm said:


> How many cross bred/mongrel puppies have you heard of or seen advertised that say the parents were health checked? Because I have seen a total of *0.*


 
just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I think it's unrealistic to believe mongrel parents are health tested on a significant basis? Surely they'd have to be tested for every testable disease/issue, if indeed it is possible?


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

mattm said:


> No that is not what i'm saying. I am saying that a *far less *number of cross bred breeders will do health tests than those that breed pedigree dogs. That is common sense. How many cross bred/mongrel puppies have you heard of or seen advertised that say the parents were health checked? Because I have seen a total of *0.
> * Not all breeders put all of the info on an advert'. I don't. I put the basics and expect interested parties to contact me for further info. Just because you haven't seen it mentioned, doesn't mean it hasn't been done. Again, just supposition and jumping to conclusions.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

> just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


Well I know that. But it exists in much smaller numbers. You're not going to tell me that there are as many people health testing to produce cross bred puppies as there are to produce pure bred, are you? Could you back that up please?

I never said it doesn't happen.


----------



## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

> Because I can, because I prefer crosses to purebred dogs, because I like the puppies I produce


If you think those are valid reasons to produce cross breeds then that's fine. Personally my opinion differs. Can I ask if you have a goal, an aim, something to improve upon when you are producing such litters?? And if not, why do you feel you are offering anymore than a rescue can? OK so you might say certain crosses are not available from a rescue, but why make them available. We don't need choosing a dog to be like choosing from a chocolate box. There are plenty of dogs out there to suit everyone that puts the work in. Why promote the mentality that buying a dog is like going around the supermarket.

I am not ignorant on the subject at all. I also don't feel I have made anything come across as factual. I apologize if I have but I have only tried to state my opinion on the subject. 

You say you have linebred your dogs but I fail to see how you have properly linebred cross bred animals?? So what filial are you on now? I am interested, not trying to say you are wrong, and please don't say I am ignorant on the subject of genetics, I have had to study animal genetics for the past two years and continue to do so as part of my degree.


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

mattm said:


> why do you feel you are offering anymore than a rescue can? OK so you might say certain crosses are not available from a rescue, but why make them available. We don't need choosing a dog to be like choosing from a chocolate box. There are plenty of dogs out there to suit everyone that puts the work in. Why promote the mentality that buying a dog is like going around the supermarket.


 Frankly I think you have a cheek.You think that nobody should have any choice in what dog they would like, that people should be jolly well grateful for whatever dog the rescie deigns to allow them to have, and be thankful that they have been allowed to take on a dog with 'issues' and that they aren't fit to own any pet at all if they aren't prepared or able to work on those issues? I can't see that researching breeds and types, deciding on what best suits your lifestyle and family, is anything like supermarket shopping. Are you telling me that the people who came to me for one of my cavalier cross chihuahuas specifically because I am the breeder I am, producing the puppies I produced, should have gone to a rescue centre and taken on an adult large breed dog of unknown history despite the fact that they had never owned a dog before, were complete novices, needed the fact that I am happy to mentor them and offer full support, and wanted something small with a nice easy nature to help their 12 year old son, come to terms with the bone cancer which had caused him to have a leg amputated the previous month. You think that they should have been prepared to cope with his regular chemotherapy, plus cope with a large dog with issues and which was one which would not have enhanced their life but made it worse? I'll mention your opinion next time they visit (they do visit me, often).
I find the high handed attitude that nobody should have any choice, but everyone should rescue a dog from kennels or regard themselves as monsters, is highly distasteful indeed.



> I am not ignorant on the subject at all. I also don't feel I have made anything come across as factual. I apologize if I have but I have only tried to state my opinion on the subject.


You didn't state an opinion, you made a statement on the number of people who actively choose a particular cross. I merely pointed out that you were wrong and put it down to the fact that being so entrenched in rescue, you might have been unaware of the popularity of crosses and certain crosses at that.i.e. ignorance. It isn't an insult but a fact.If someone doesn't know something, they are ignorant on the subject and you appeared not to know that lots of people do indeed look for a particular cross.



> You say you have linebred your dogs but I fail to see how you have properly linebred cross bred animals?? So what filial are you on now? I am interested, not trying to say you are wrong, and please don't say I am ignorant on the subject of genetics, I have had to study animal genetics for the past two years and continue to do so as part of my degree.


I never said you were ignorant on the subject of genetics. The topic didn't arise until just now.
I know little about genetics and am too old to properly grasp the subject now. All I can say is that I now have 4 generations of lha-chis here. Don't particularly feel inclined to go into any great detail as to the whys and wherefores and whst I have or have not got and why I did XYZ. It's really no concern of yours or anyone else's on here.I find your nosiness into my personal life rather uncomfortable to be honest. I don't ask personal questions of you, nor would I and if I did, it certainly would not be on a public forum for all to digest and pick apart. Someone posted about crossbred dogs, I replied to that post, you made wildly inaccurate statements about crossbred dogs and their breeders, I responded. I never invited you to give me the 3rd degree about what I do and why I do it and the like especially since you have made it abundantly clear that you disapprove of anyone breeding dogs when so many dogs are in rescue kennels, and the fact that you think that nobody should have any choice in the breed or type of dog they get.
You'd have made a fantastic citizen in communist China or Russia :lol2:


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

A lot of my dogs are cross breeds /mongrels and absolutely gorgeous. My Yorkie x Kerry blue is a small black scruffy dog with a blue tinge and a very cheeky character. If I wanted to get a replica of him then I wouldnt be so lucky to find one in the rescues and he only cost me a tenner 13 years ago. The same applied to my JRT x Cavalier who was the best dog anyone could want(sadly he died aged 16 years) To get a similar kind of dog I would have to find someone who bred them as small dogs like these 2 never appear in rescues


----------



## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

mattm said:


> If you think those are valid reasons to produce cross breeds then that's fine. Personally my opinion differs. Can I ask if you have a goal, an aim, something to improve upon when you are producing such litters?? And if not, why do you feel you are offering anymore than a rescue can? OK so you might say certain crosses are not available from a rescue, but why make them available. We don't need choosing a dog to be like choosing from a chocolate box. There are plenty of dogs out there to suit everyone that puts the work in. Why promote the mentality that buying a dog is like going around the supermarket.


Because not everybody wants to buy from a rescue and not everybody wants an older dog.
If people want a puppy they want to see the parents and not just pick it from a litter in a rescue.


You say we don't need to choose dogs like choosing from a chocolate box, but you're not actually backing that up with what you say. When you pick from a chocolate box you choose what you want, if what you want isn't there then you pick the best from what's available.


And i've already said it once in this thread, all dogs are cross breeds and mongrels.. most have just been given a pedigree.



> I am not ignorant on the subject at all..


some of your views and opinions seem to be.


----------



## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

Whilst I admire people who take in animals from rescues, I could never do it myself. If we ever get another dog, I dont want an old dog and I dont want another dog with behavioural problems. I need a rest!

If I get another dog someday I want a staffy, but personally I'd prefer to pay for a pup that's had a good start in life, that has a great temprement and I like to be able to see the parents first. You simply can't do that in a rescue. Besides which, if I'm going to pay for an animal I want to be able to choose the exact animal that I feel would be right for our family.


----------



## Tazer (Aug 10, 2009)

I don't have a problem with the price as such. What I have a problem with, is the motivation behind some of those prices, to make a quick £££. 

I don't see a problem with a breeder of either crosses or purebreeds, charging say £1000, for a pup, if the parents were health tested, per each breeds recommendations, if crossbreeding, and the dogs used are of sound temperament. However, I just think it is unethical, and unjustifiable, on the part of the breeder, to charge £1000, or more, if they've put no thought into the breeding past a quick quid, but imo, if thats their only reason for breeding, then, they shouldn't be breeding at all.
What does actually annoy me, is when they give inaccurate info, to sell pups. For example, selling cockerdoodles, or is it cockerpoo's? as low shedding, good for allergy sufferers, when they infact have no way of knowing if that is going to be the case, for the verry fact they crossed, a actual low shedding breed the poodle, with a shedding breed.
Anyway, back to price. 
If someone wants to pay a grand for an unhealth tested, poorly bred byb or puppy farmed cross or purebreed, that is their business. People will do what they want after all, you can advise them, doesn't mean they'll listen. In which case, I won't loose any sleep over it.
Havn't seen any beauceron cross germanshepherds around yet, now that's a cross that might tempt me.


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

spider_duck said:


> Whilst I admire people who take in animals from rescues, I could never do it myself. If we ever get another dog, I dont want an old dog and I dont want another dog with behavioural problems. I need a rest!
> 
> If I get another dog someday I want a staffy, but personally I'd prefer to pay for a pup that's had a good start in life, that has a great temprement and I like to be able to see the parents first. You simply can't do that in a rescue. Besides which, if I'm going to pay for an animal I want to be able to choose the exact animal that I feel would be right for our family.


So all rescue dogs are old or have behavioural issues? How sad that you actually believe this - so many dogs die without homes because of this myth. Especially staffies, there's a huge amount of them in rescue right now because of breed misinformation. A good rescue will assess all their dogs - preferably using foster homes where available - and you could be missing out on your perfect companion because you believe all rescues are problem dogs. Truth is, most arent!


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I think if people are that fickle that they will only have a specific breed/cross, then perhaps they need to think of their priorities.

They should be choosing a dog based on it's needs, not its looks. How a crossbreed owner can guarantee which breed their dog will take after in exercise requirements, grooming, health, temperament etc is hard to understand.

As for saying that not all folks want a problem dog - are you saying that all your pups (FW) will not go on to have behavioural issues? Can you guarantee that? I find that argument very sad, knowing that the majority of dogs in rescues are there through no fault of their own, and people like you spreading the myth that they cannot find their perfect pal there (but of course you'd have to - I do understand it's all about marketing your "product").

While breed temperament and health are not guaranteed, they're much more predictable than guessing which breed a cross will take after. You might get a litter of GSDs x jack russells (hey, it happens) where 30% take after the GSD, 30% take after the JRT, and the rest are varying degrees in between. You cant guarantee that all those crosses will all come out a perfect balance of the two, as it doesn't work like that.

At least in a rescue they will (in good rescues that is) match the dogs needs with the owner. Which home do you think is more likely to bounce - the one where they match a dog to their needs, or the one where they pick based on what exact cross it is and not its needs? If people are prepared to pander to fickle people who care more about looks than whether the dog matches their home, then I guess there'll always be these designer crosses about.


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

spider_duck said:


> Whilst I admire people who take in animals from rescues, I could never do it myself. If we ever get another dog, I dont want an old dog and I dont want another dog with behavioural problems. I need a rest!


I wanted a mastiff breed puppy. I got a pedigree bullmastiff puppy.....in rescue. 

I completely back anyone's choice to go wherever they deem suitable to get a puppy/dog - after all it is a long haul decision and one that should have ramefications for a good 10 years +. But let's not perpetuate the unfounded myth that rescues only have old or problematic dogs. Dogs get handed into rescue for all sorts of reasons and puppies are very common, even pedigree ones. :2thumb:


----------



## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> So all rescue dogs are old or have behavioural issues? How sad that you actually believe this - so many dogs die without homes because of this myth. Especially staffies, there's a huge amount of them in rescue right now because of breed misinformation. A good rescue will assess all their dogs - preferably using foster homes where available - and you could be missing out on your perfect companion because you believe all rescues are problem dogs. Truth is, most arent!


No not ALL rescues are going to be old dogs or problem dogs, but there's no denying a lot of them are! Im just going off my own experiences with rescues. Im not against them in anyway, but when/if I decide to get another dog, I'll take my time looking around for a good breeder, and I'll wait until I find THE pup that's right for us. I quite often have a look on the local rescue websites out of curiosity and who knows maybe one day we'll see a dog that might change our minds, but I doubt it.


----------



## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

KathyM said:


> I wanted a mastiff breed puppy. I got a pedigree bullmastiff puppy.....in rescue.
> 
> I completely back anyone's choice to go wherever they deem suitable to get a puppy/dog - after all it is a long haul decision and one that should have ramefications for a good 10 years +. But let's not perpetuate the unfounded myth that rescues only have old or problematic dogs. Dogs get handed into rescue for all sorts of reasons and puppies are very common, even pedigree ones. :2thumb:


I wasn't trying to imply that all dogs in rescues are old or have behavioural problems, I was just trying to get my point across that I'd prefer to go to a breeder: victory: I probably shouldn't type when I'm tired as now I look back on it it does kinda look that way :lol2:


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

No, completely understand your choice and tried very hard not to look like I was saying people *have* to go to rescue (because I feel very strongly about people making informed choices and am not like that). I would definitely go to a good breeder if I wanted to see the parents and know about health testing (I wish more people went to breeders who did that), I would probably approach breed rescue too though.

Unfortunately for me I'm a complete sucker for the old and unhomable fugly dogs too. Hence having had Ruby and Seth the boxers here, both fairly unhomable, both faces for radio, both absolutely fantastic dogs


----------



## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

Dont get me wrong I also like the old and unhomable, my penny who lives back in wales with my parents is 14 now and most people wouldn't look at her twice but I think she's adorable and she's always had the best temprement. 

But we have a dog with issues and as much as I love her I REALLY don't wanna go through this again. It's going to be a fair few years before I even start looking, and who knows how long it'll be after that :lol2:

Boxers have lovely chops :flrt:


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Ruby looked like Les Dawson - I never thought it possible to miss a dog as much as I miss her. She has a long story but it's too long for this thread, suffice to say she was the most special rescue dog ever born. Don't tell Dharma that, she'll probably get that title when she passes over lol. 

I've been very lucky with dogs I've adopted. I would've waited for a pedigree puppy as my 2nd dog this time, but Sid walked through the door and wouldn't leave, so I ended up with another crossbreed "rescue".


----------



## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Ruby looked like Les Dawson - I never thought it possible to miss a dog as much as I miss her. She has a long story but it's too long for this thread, suffice to say she was the most special rescue dog ever born. Don't tell Dharma that, she'll probably get that title when she passes over lol.
> 
> I've been very lucky with dogs I've adopted. I would've waited for a pedigree puppy as my 2nd dog this time, but Sid walked through the door and wouldn't leave, so I ended up with another crossbreed "rescue".


:lol2: @ les dawson!

Pennys getting old now, I'll be truly gutted when she passes on especially as I live so far away from her. Here she is, wit hher alien face :lol2:








Fat body, little legs and a long nose-just the way we like her :flrt:


----------



## sizedoesn'tmatter (Jan 24, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> I was wondering if we had met because the scenario you described re the breeder of your dog, sounded like me, until I saw the 5 hours drive, then I realised it couldn't be me as I have refused to sell a pup which was to have a 5 hour journey to it's new home. For one because I think that's too long a car ride for a little pup and secondly because under the terms of my contract, should anything go wrong, the dog has to come back to me and I'd bet that in that case the owner wouldn't want the hassle of driving 10 hours to return it and I'd be hard pushed to be able to make the time to do the trip. Otherwise, everything you described, was just how I operate. I turn away 8 out of 10 people who enquire about my puppies because for one reason or another, they don't meet my criteria.


I know it's a long journey - it was for that reason that we agreed with the breeder to wait a little longer before taking Loki home and had prepared a route with potential stops (including an over-night if needed) however the little guy slept right through and so we made it home no problems. Our contract also states that if we ever decide to give Loki up he must return to the breeder. I would take him back, we've given our word and we are those kind of people. I also know that the breeeder would come here and collect him if that was ever necessary she's that sort of person too! She has also turned away countless potential owners - the breeds involved do rather attract plonkers especially after any documentaries on Shaun Ellis!

I have been made to feel guilty that we didn't choose a rescue. Our past dogs have all been rescues. However, we knew very specifically the dog we wanted and they are big dogs with lots of power and my sister-in-law had very recently been mauled by a dog from a rescue (just one of those things but it made us stop and think) we needed to see the parents, the health checks, and know we had the breeder on board as a mentor. In the future now we are experienced with these breeds we might consider taking from a breed rescue if there was a known history. It is likely that our breeder would know of a dog that needed a forever home and also know the background and yes she would help us home a dog before selling us another one of her pups. There are some good people out there still.


----------



## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> I think if people are that *fickle* that they will only have a specific breed/cross, then perhaps they need to think of their priorities.


"Fickle" ? How does wanting a specific breed or cross make somebody "fickle"?


----------



## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*mongrel v pedigree*

I can't understand why anyone would choose to breed a cross such as a jug other than for money.A jack russel won't be improved by a pug and a pug will loose most of it's pug features when crossed so whats the point.I understand why people buy them,pugs are expensive and I presume they are hoping for a small pug type dog at less cost but that still leaves the question of other than money why would you breed one.As a generalisation I would also presume that if money is the main motive then a breeder isn't going to want to waste precious profit on extras,whether they be food,wormers or the vet.I know there are exceptions but a quick look on pre loved makes it pretty clear that most are in it for the dosh.


----------



## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*penny*

Pennys getting old now, I'll be truly gutted when she passes on especially as I live so far away from her. Here she is, wit hher alien face



I love the oldies,long live Penny.


----------



## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

> My problem is that people give it a silly name, put on a huge price tag, some celebrity buys it an dit becomes the latest fad. just like the Labradoodle. Everyone wanted one, all and sundry saw the price tag and wanted to breed them to make a 'quick buck', people bought them on a whim so they could have the latest thing,


^^^^ THATS the point I made in a thread on KC dogs recently and I agree with it. 
I CAN see why people may want a certain cross for specific reasons say for assistance dogs or working dogs.. thats perfectly logical.
I dont have any issue personally with the ETHICAL breeding of mongrels just as I have no issue with the ETHICAL breeding of pedigrees. As with any animal there are good and bad breeders. 
I DO have an issue with the adverts I've seen recently selling crosses apparently produced for no other reason than that they'll have a stupid name e.g. bull shihts (sp), puggles, cockapoos, cockadoodles etc. 
I bumped into an old customer at the shop I worked at and she loudly told me all about her new pedigree jack-shihtz (again sp...and pedigree?! HOW?!?!)

of course she pronounced it Jack Shit didnt she? because thats so very funny.
It's bloody infantile.
THATS what is ticking me off, its not so much the production of mongrels its the faddy and designer way in which they are marketed and yes, I DO mean marketed. I'm not saying every breeding is doing this, its just painful seeing how many are. It cant be denied that such practice is irresponsible. There is no reason for many of these crosses other than those bloody stupid names. 

As for rescue dogs, I'd love a rescue dog but I'd never have one as a first dog as I don't feel that IF it had any behavioural issue etc that I'd have the knowledge to deal with it.
Thats just my failings though. 

Saying that its my opinion that the rescues should be being as cautious about who takens on their dogs as the breeders. Namely that some one after a small lap dog doesnt end up leaving with a dirty great big hulking thing that they cant cope with. 

Kat


----------



## Mush (Jan 20, 2008)

my first dog was a cross, a lab x collie and we got him from the rehome centre.

he was a year old and we were his third home and he was an awesome dog










my second dog was harry, i found him up for rehome on preloved and he came from a crap start and does have behaviour problems. Ive had him since march and his behaviour problems are near gone now with the work i have put in.










My family have always had pure breed rough collies all his life from puppy.










we are getting a pure breed german shepherd puppy once im walking again. We have chosen to get a puppy mainly because with me already having Harry i want a pup thats not going to have issues with him and can grow up with him. we also want a pup to grow up with the kids in the family. The main reason we have chosen our second dog to be a pure breed puppy rather than a cross breed is because we like the breed itself and with it being a german shepherd we can also check the hip scoring and health tests on the parents rather than rehoming one we have no idea on.


----------



## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*rescues*

your dogs look a credit to you in the pics,mush.I come from a family thats always had rescues.When I was twenty I decided just once I'd like an 8 week old puppy without hang ups already.I had my lovely pup who was indeed a joy and I've had the breed ever since.I always have one rescue as well.My preference is for bull breeds but my path crossed with a jack russel in her hour of need and she's our current rescue.Never had a jack russel on my wanted list, but hey ho.


----------



## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

sarahc said:


> I love the oldies,long live Penny.


:lol2: She's got a bit of a grey beard now :flrt:

She's always been a right character. When she was younger my dad refused to share his curry so she reversed and sat in it :lol2:


----------



## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

Fenwoman we could go back and forth with this until the cows come home, but I don't think it is going to get us anywhere because we have very different views on this subject. At the end of the day, the original subject was weather expensive mongrels are justified - and I still think 9/10 times no, it's not. I hadn't realized there was some secret society of reputable cross bred and mongrel breeders that the majority of us know nothing about, I do apologize. I wonder why the majority of them won't come out of the woodwork then?

Funnily enough you have lost a lot of the credibility of your points by straying from the subject and telling me about what societies I should join and the like. Where have I judged you at all? I haven't. Perhaps you should learn how to debate correctly and effectively - just a suggestion. That is, without using other tactics to score points. 

Once again you are twisting my words FW. I *never* said people should have no choice. 

Are you suggesting that every possible cross breed under the sun should be produced then, so that if one person in a given area happens to want one, they can have what they want exactly?? And the other 6 pups go where? I will leave that to your imagination. Lets not go with the attitude that all breeders will keep pups for life that they cannot home, especially cross breeds and mongrels, because come on - that's not realistic at all. You can't make everyone happy, if someone comes to you wanting a Springer X Alsation are you going to be the one to do it?

FW, if the people that come to you wanting a (lets use your example) cavalier cross chihuahua and tell you that they had specifically wanted that cross (which they obviously do tell you, because you seem to know a lot about what the local market wants) i'm afraid I think you are being fooled. The majority hear about cute puppies available/want a cross (in general)/have heard of hybrid vigour and automatically come to you for pups. That doesn't mean they were specifically looking for a Cavalier X Chihuahua LOL, and I think it's a bit of a niave attitude to assume so.

If anyone takes on a dog as a pet they should be prepared for anything that could possibly go wrong, yes. They are not going to be any safer or have a guarantee of health because your cross breeds have linage records, if that's what you're trying to say! And do you realize, if you are linebreeding like you claim, then sooner or later your cross breeds will lose any hybrid vigour/outcross immunity and be just as likely to suffer problems as any purebreed. After all that is how breeds are created. 

Lastly (as I probably won't be commenting on the subject again because I feel this post is rather conclusive) I am not at all interested in your personal life, I was interested in your breeding programme actually and I think that was quite clear?? If anyone would like to differ I would kindly ask them to read through the past few pages carefully. For the record, I am not against any REPUTABLE breeding, I breed Guinea Pigs myself. Another conclusion you have jumped to...and you're calling me ignorant? LOL - I call that hypocritical.


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

spider_duck said:


> :lol2: @ les dawson!












LOL, told you!

Penny is lovely!


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

mattm said:


> Fenwoman we could go back and forth with this until the cows come home, but I don't think it is going to get us anywhere because we have very different views on this subject. At the end of the day, the original subject was weather expensive mongrels are justified - and I still think 9/10 times no, it's not. I hadn't realized there was some secret society of reputable cross bred and mongrel breeders that the majority of us know nothing about, I do apologize. I wonder why the majority of them won't come out of the woodwork then?


 there is no secret society, plenty of us are 'reputable' perhaps it's simply that because you have zero involvement in the field, you simply don't know how popular they are, or whether people health test or vet homes etc.



> Funnily enough you have lost a lot of the credibility of your points by straying from the subject and telling me about what societies I should join and the like.


 In the words of a famous comedienne..."face........bovvered?"



> Where have I judged you at all?


 Possibly the bit where you mentioned that all breeders of crossbreeds did no health testing, were only in it for the money and were disreputable.



> I haven't.


see above.


> Perhaps you should learn how to debate correctly and effectively - just a suggestion. That is, without using other tactics to score points.


 When I was in a debating society, as far as I am aware nobody ever mentioned there being a correct and an incorrect way to debate, bar getting personal (which you did) and offering insults or swearing.



> Once again you are twisting my words FW. I *never* said people should have no choice


<pantomime mode> oh yes you did<pantomime mode> 


> *If people prefer crosses I would urge them to take on rescue dogs/pups and not keep such a breeder in profit.*


Now that sounds very much like you saying that people should get a dog from rescue even though they won't be able to get a small pup of a particular cross.



> Are you suggesting that every possible cross breed under the sun should be produced then, so that if one person in a given area happens to want one, they can have what they want exactly??


 Don't be silly. Where did I say anything like that?



> And the other 6 pups go where?


 I'm sorry, you've lost me. 6 pups? What 6 pups?


> I will leave that to your imagination. Lets not go with the attitude that all breeders will keep pups for life that they cannot home, especially cross breeds and mongrels, because come on - that's not realistic at all.


 It's perfectly realistic. It's not likely to happen however but all reputable breeders will take back one of their own bred dogs if needed and all reputable breeders will keep any unsold puppies and either keep them for life, or neuter and let out on adoption papers for a small fee. At least, all the breeders I know operate in this manner, but then I'm hardly likely to have anything to do with someone who's principles I don't share. I have heard of more than plenty breeders of purebred dogs who refuse to take back a dog of their breeding, when it becomes homeless or cannot be kept. I run an advice line so it's the first thing I ask about when asked where an unwanted dog can go.



> You can't make everyone happy, if someone comes to you wanting a Springer X Alsation are you going to be the one to do it?


 Well given that I don't keep either breed and given the fact that since I don't keep either and don't breed either and don't advertise either, people are unlikely to come to me asking about such a cross are they? Would you go to a Ford dealership and ask them if they sold BMW's?



> FW, if the people that come to you wanting a (lets use your example) cavalier cross chihuahua and tell you that they had specifically wanted that cross (which they obviously do tell you, because you seem to know a lot about what the local market wants) i'm afraid I think you are being fooled.


 And why would you imagine they would be trying to fool me? Why on earth would anyone phone me up, ask about the parents, explain what they think the cross is like, then ask to go on my waiting list, simply in order to fool me? What would they gain?Incidentally, I generally sell not local to me as I have a low opinion of the locals and their dog keeping skills. My puppies go as far as Southampton, to Birmingham, Worcestershire etc. Never sold one pup locally and if someone local phones me, I always say I have nothing available. Sadly the town has become one large rental housing estate and I never sell to people in private rented homes.



> The majority hear about cute puppies available/want a cross (in general)/have heard of hybrid vigour and automatically come to you for pups.


 Well of course, someone might do it this way. At which point I ask questions, explain about hybrid vigour not necessarily being true etc.



> That doesn't mean they were specifically looking for a Cavalier X Chihuahua LOL, and I think it's a bit of a niave attitude to assume so.


Let me just make sure I'm understanding you properly. I breed crossbred dogs. I breed specific crosses. I have done for around 12 years. I also run an advice line. In 12 years breeding crossbreds, talking to people, dealing with dog owners and potential dog owners, you are saying I learned nothing, have no experience on the subject at all and am naive, whereas yourself, who has never bred a litter, never bred a litter of crossbreds, have no knowledge about small crosses or how popular they are, are the one who can speak with some authority on the subject?................riiiiiight. If you say so :lol2:




> If anyone takes on a dog as a pet they should be prepared for anything that could possibly go wrong, yes.


No. There is no way to prepare for something like epilepsy say (as my old coltriever developed) and you cannot prepare for some behavioural problem. Only someone with no real experience would say this.



> They are not going to be any safer or have a guarantee of health because your cross breeds have linage records, if that's what you're trying to say!


 and where did I say any such thing? Where did I ever say anything which could be construed as claiming that crossbreds were healthier than any other breed, or that a pedigree would make any dog healthier than a dog with no lineage record. Go on, you copy and paste the bit where I said such a thing.:bash:



> And do you realize, if you are linebreeding like you claim, then sooner or later your cross breeds will lose any hybrid vigour/outcross immunity and be just as likely to suffer problems as any purebreed. After all that is how breeds are created.


 You are the one claiming that I said I breed my crossbreeds for hybrid vigour. Where did I say any such thing? You are falling into the trap of making things up in order to prove a point.



> Lastly (as I probably won't be commenting on the subject again because I feel this post is rather conclusive) I am not at all interested in your personal life, I was interested in your breeding programme actually and I think that was quite clear??


 No you weren't interested in anything of the sort. You were interested in scoring points because you heartily disapprove of people breeding dogs because there are plenty of unwanted problem dogs in rescue kennels which they ought to be getting instead.Had you been genuinely interested in my line breeding, you would have asked me about it in a PM.



> If anyone would like to differ I would kindly ask them to read through the past few pages carefully. For the record, I am not against any REPUTABLE breeding, I breed Guinea Pigs myself.


 Hopefully not crossbred guinea pigs. And indeed, should you be breeding guinea pigs at all? People should not be lining the pockets of guinea pig breeders when rescue homes have plenty unwanted guinea pigs which people ought to be getting.



> Another conclusion you have jumped to...and you're calling me ignorant? LOL - I call that hypocritical.


No probs. Call it a teapot if it makes you happy. <shrug>


----------



## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

LOL just as I suspected. Thank you FW, you have just demonstrated everything I was talking about. Brilliant, saves me a job!


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

mattm said:


> LOL just as I suspected. Thank you FW, you have just demonstrated everything I was talking about. Brilliant, saves me a job!


 Glad to have been helpful. I always try to be helpful you know.


----------



## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Glad to have been helpful. I always try to be helpful you know.


why i'd quite like some more pics of Ursa please, if your in a helpful mood:whistling2::mf_dribble:


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

lizardloverrach said:


> why i'd quite like some more pics of Ursa please, if your in a helpful mood:whistling2::mf_dribble:


 I'll try and get some over the next few days. He's fast asleep right now with 3 little chihuahuas curled up in the long fur on his back.


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Ooooh Ursa photos would be wonderful. Hes a cross that I would like to own as hes so bloody handsome, its just a shame I dont have room or I would come and steal him away:flrt:


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> I think if people are that fickle that they will only have a specific breed/cross, then perhaps they need to think of their priorities.
> 
> They should be choosing a dog based on it's needs, not its looks. How a crossbreed owner can guarantee which breed their dog will take after in exercise requirements, grooming, health, temperament etc is hard to understand.
> 
> ...


I'll quote, since your on Ignore! 

Mind you, will she see this, as Im on Ignore too :hmm:


----------



## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> I'll quote, since your on Ignore!
> 
> Mind you, will she see this, as Im on Ignore too :hmm:


until she gets bored again...then again i will prob be on ignore too


----------



## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

KathyM said:


> image
> 
> LOL, told you!
> 
> Penny is lovely!


Oh my god she does!!!! :flrt:Just look at those chubby chops!!! Shes beautiful! :flrt:


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Thanks - she passed away a few years ago now, but she was the bestest dog ever. She was well known for her impressions - she did Elvis and ET too. :lol2:


----------



## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> I'll try and get some over the next few days. He's fast asleep right now with 3 little chihuahuas curled up in the long fur on his back.


now that would make a good picture!


----------



## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Ooooh Ursa photos would be wonderful. Hes a cross that I would like to own as hes so bloody handsome, its just a shame I dont have room or I would come and steal him away:flrt:


get in line shell........... :whistling2:


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

I think I posted such a pic last year but a couple of the 'clique' used it as an excuse to moan about the mud in the dog room. I daren't take a photo of Ursa or the other dogs until the land has dried up a bit cos unless I stop them gallping about outside playing, or unless I do nothing all day except wash the walls, doors and floors every time any of the dogs comes back indoors, the clique will tell me what a slut I am and how 'all their mother's dog rooms' are always spotless. (hmm I wonder if the mother also has a smallholding with muddy fields and allows her dogs to play outside whenever they want, in which case, perhaps she could let me into the secret of how they don't bring mud in or how she keeps them clean without having to spend all day washing everything down like the Forth rail bridge, starting again just as soon as she's done.
Yesterday morning I swabbed all the floors. I chuck a bucket of hot bleachy water down in the living room, scrub the tiles, then squeegy the water into the kitchen. Scrub the quarry tiles in there , then mop the dirty water up, pour away and repeat in the dog room. I had literally turned my back to pour the muddy water down the toilet, turned back again, and all the floors were filthy muddy again. It hadn't stayed clean for more than 3 minutes. I'd so love to know how other smallholders with several dogs, manage to keep the place clean. Unless of course, they hadn't got a smallholding, and the dogs didn't gallop about outside on wet muddy fields, in which case, they had a flipping cheek commenting.
So, until the land dried up and my dogs don't get muddy whilst playing tag outside, I daren't take any photos, because city dwellers with one or two dogs who get walked on clean concrete and tarmac no more than twice a day, and have their feet wiped when they get indoors, will judge my country dogs for being muddy and bringing mud into the house.


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

and BTW, whomever take the big lad, will have to take Chalky too cos they love each other and are inseperable. Chalky is the one who's hobby is biting folks. He only loves Ursa and 'Mumsie' (me), everyone else is fair game. Is there still a queue?:lol2:


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

ok so heres my input- havent read every reply btw!

i breed st bernards i spend ages finding the right dog for my bitch- i put pedigrees together to see inbreeding and the dog the puppies would most likely come out like, 
i spend ages traveling and watching shows to see the stud"in the flesh" as time is limited to change my mind on the right day for the bitch

i dont care what people charge for there dogs- a dog is worth what a buyer will pay!!! 

what really gets me is when breeds are put together will no regard for structure etc- ive seen bulldogs and st bernards crossed- imagine the mating for the poor bitch yet alone whelping those pups??? then to charge £1000s of pounds for a dog that is highly likey to need medical help along the line..... what a heartache for the owner who though it was a "designer" dog yet alone the poor health of the dog

they also breed st bernard cross poodle- what isnt mixed with a poodle now days???

i wont be cross breeding or changing £1500 for a bernadoole!!!

if you want to breed to make money thats fine but cant the dogs health come into it??? you can still make money being a good breeder who takes the time to care .

cheri 
kc arredited breeder of smooth st bernards!!!

ps i also microchip litters of puppies and sometimes the owners dont even know what the bich was crossed with and then cant comment on how the puppies will turn out- thats just crazy!!!


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I took my Rottie and GSD for a run on the fields the other day and when I came back home they plastered the house with mud so then I took them outside and hosed off their legs which made it worse as I had mud puddles everywhere. The house looked like a pig wallow and you know what I dont care in the least. Dogs attract mud and dirt and love to spread it about, I dont have a dog room so unless I shut them in one room its everywhere. I often wonder why people who stress over mud own dogs. Give me mud and happy dogs anyday


----------



## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> I took my Rottie and GSD for a run on the fields the other day and when I came back home they plastered the house with mud so then I took them outside and hosed off their legs which made it worse as I had mud puddles everywhere. The house looked like a pig wallow and you know what I dont care in the least. Dogs attract mud and dirt and love to spread it about, I dont have a dog room so unless I shut them in one room its everywhere. I often wonder why people who stress over mud own dogs. Give me mud and happy dogs anyday


 
LOL yesh i remember the pm about that :whistling2::lol2::lol2::lol2:


----------



## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> and BTW, whomever take the big lad, will have to take Chalky too cos they love each other and are inseperable. Chalky is the one who's hobby is biting folks. He only loves Ursa and 'Mumsie' (me), everyone else is fair game. Is there still a queue?:lol2:


 
damn it! :devil: 
what a shame about the pics, we dont mind a bit of mud in the background, we'll be too busy ogling Ursa!
ps would Ursa fit in the boot of a volvo?:whistling2: and may i have your adress?:whistling2:


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

missmoore said:


> ok so heres my input- havent read every reply btw!
> 
> i breed st bernards i spend ages finding the right dog for my bitch- i put pedigrees together to see inbreeding and the dog the puppies would most likely come out like,
> i spend ages traveling and watching shows to see the stud"in the flesh" as time is limited to change my mind on the right day for the bitch


That's normal though. I mean, who books an unseen dog to mate their bitch? When I bred and showed standard poodles, I had a stud lined up before the bitch had even had her first season as I'd spant weeks studying pedigrees, seeing the dogs at shows and speaking to the stud dog owner.




> what really gets me is when breeds are put together will no regard for structure etc- ive seen bulldogs and st bernards crossed- imagine the mating for the poor bitch yet alone whelping those pups???


 I can't see how that mating would be successful. I mean, you'd have to use a St Bernard bitch and a bulldog male. That in itself might prove problematic since most bulldog males are not physically able to mate a bitch. That's why AI is big business in bulldogs.



> then to charge £1000s of pounds for a dog that is highly likey to need medical help along the line..... what a heartache for the owner who though it was a "designer" dog yet alone the poor health of the dog


 I have never seen such a cross advertised and am amazed that the price of £1000 was asked for the puppies. I wonder how they justified asking that given Saint Bernards aren't the most popular breed and they could buy a pure bulldog for that money.




> they also breed st bernard cross poodle- what isnt mixed with a poodle now days???


Mine aren't.





> if you want to breed to make money thats fine but cant the dogs health come into it??? you can still make money being a good breeder who takes the time to care .


and what makes you think that cross breeders don't do health testing and don't care?





> ps i also microchip litters of puppies and sometimes the owners dont even know what the bich was crossed with and then cant comment on how the puppies will turn out- thats just crazy!!!


 How often is this the case?
I have puppies, mothers, granny and great granny here, plus the father, aunties, cousins, half brothers and sisters. I supply a sort of pedigree (family tree) with pictures of various related dogs on it so they can show people. Several of my puppies who have been sold have their own facebook pages , one was even featured in a magazine and local newspaper. :0)
Not everyone who prefers crossbreeds is a charlatan.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> I think I posted such a pic last year but a couple of the 'clique' used it as an excuse to moan about the mud in the dog room. I daren't take a photo of Ursa or the other dogs until the land has dried up a bit cos unless I stop them gallping about outside playing, or unless I do nothing all day except wash the walls, doors and floors every time any of the dogs comes back indoors, the clique will tell me what a slut I am and how 'all their mother's dog rooms' are always spotless. (hmm I wonder if the mother also has a smallholding with muddy fields and allows her dogs to play outside whenever they want, in which case, perhaps she could let me into the secret of how they don't bring mud in or how she keeps them clean without having to spend all day washing everything down like the Forth rail bridge, starting again just as soon as she's done.
> Yesterday morning I swabbed all the floors. I chuck a bucket of hot bleachy water down in the living room, scrub the tiles, then squeegy the water into the kitchen. Scrub the quarry tiles in there , then mop the dirty water up, pour away and repeat in the dog room. I had literally turned my back to pour the muddy water down the toilet, turned back again, and all the floors were filthy muddy again. It hadn't stayed clean for more than 3 minutes. I'd so love to know how other smallholders with several dogs, manage to keep the place clean. *Unless of course, they hadn't got a smallholding, and the dogs didn't gallop about outside on wet muddy fields, in which case, they had a flipping cheek commenting*.
> So, until the land dried up and my dogs don't get muddy whilst playing tag outside, I daren't take any photos, because city dwellers with one or two dogs who get walked on clean concrete and tarmac no more than twice a day, and have their feet wiped when they get indoors, will judge my country dogs for being muddy and bringing mud into the house.


I haven't ever commented on Fenny's house, but................

Pot.....Kettle.....................baby marmoset thread? :whistling2:


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

lizardloverrach said:


> damn it! :devil:
> what a shame about the pics, we dont mind a bit of mud in the background, we'll be too busy ogling Ursa!
> ps would Ursa fit in the boot of a volvo?:whistling2: and may i have your adress?:whistling2:


 Ursa doesn't travel in the boot. I don't think he'd fit. You need a large estate car with the seats folded down and he stretches out in the whole of the back. Chalky is always beside him. Remember that film called 'Twins' with Arnie schwarzenegger and Danny de Vito? Well that's like Chalky and Ursa. LIttwe Chalky is in charge of everything and big Ursa just goes alomg with whatever Chalky wants to do. If you want Ursa, just get Chalky on a lead and walk off with him and the big lad will follow his little mucker. Of course, the slight hitch is getting Chalky on a lead without losing fingers hehehehe. Oh he's a little beggar he is (chuckle) <doting mumsie mode>


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

it was a bulldog bitch and a st bernard dog- the dog was only young and the owner thought he wouldnt "do the job"

im afraid i often find bitch owners who use a dog they have never seen- they are often asking me if ive seen it and what i think- they also tend to be the ones who will leave the bitch there for a week and let the stud get on with it

£1000 is a normal price for st bernards who are fully tested

£2000 for a bulldog in this area- we are a few miles from ocobo mystyle kennels here

im not saying everyone who has a poodle mixes but it does seem to me that most dogs that are being crossed are going with a poodle- 

im not against crossbreeds if its no detrement to the dogs health/strusture etc

i also do proper pedigrees and picture pedigrees and have loads of extra family pictures for buyers to see

i know some cross breeders do care - i was mailny getting at the ones who put any two dogs together no matter what just to make some money! and lets be honest tests like hip scoring means nothing really as two hd free parenst dont garentee hd free pups 

its not all about health tests fancy kennel names and crazy new dog "breeds" its about the poor dogs that suffer in the making of it all

im not saying pedigree dogs dont suffer either.....

cheri


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

just been reading through some of the posts- fen women i love your humour!

ok so fenwomen what exactly do you cross breed and why do you put the two breeds together?? what does a chi x have that a pure doesnt??

not saying you in particular but what also really gets to me is there are no rules as of how many times a breeders can use a bitch and of what i can tell some people cross breed on the season inbetween a kc litter - poor bitches 

i dont agree people shouldnt crossbreed as there are dogs in rescues because im sure there are plenty of pedigree dogs there too

i agree it is right a repituble breeder can take back there own stock for the life of them all- no one says you have to keep it but you are responsable of bringing it into this world crossbred or not

also as there is no rule i worry alot of dogs will become much more inbred where as the kc have at last started to stop this from going on- no one can prove otherwise in crossbreeds -the bitches mum and dad could well be brother and sister then when the said bitch is bred who knows what will happen-

and how do you say what the dog will turnout like temprement wise mum or dad? esp when a toy and terrier breed is mixed???

i dont think that when people think about cross breeding they always think good things- i dontt know to be honest- the bulldog could cirtainly do alot better healthwise being mixed up abit- not with a st bernard though!!!! yet i feel alot of people would rather have a purebred bulldog than a mixed one with better health- its a sad world we live in 

im not having a go im sure you get the jist of my feelings i simply have questions!


----------



## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

I have two Chihuahua's and what I think is a shame is that people are trying to make the cross breeds trendier than the purebreeds by giving them names, especially since the handbag dog crew will pay anything for a tiny dog...heres some x's with hefty price tags...

chihuahua x Corgie =Chaworgie
chihuahua x Shih Tzu = Shihuahua
chihuahua x Toy Poodle = Chiwoodle
chihuahua x Lhasa Apso = Chiwapso
chihuahua x Yorkie = Chiworkie
Chihuahua x Great Dane = an average size family dog...lol

I actually know a woman who wants to mate my baby boy with her yorkie so she can have Chiworkie Puppys...and i was like 'Eh No...sorry he is getting the snip'.

I think that mixed breed breeding is good as we have f***ed up with whats happened to the dogs, however i think intentionally tendifying a mix breed just to make more money out of it doesnt seem right!


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

missmoore said:


> just been reading through some of the posts- fen women i love your humour!


Newbies either like me or hate me. Most start of hating me but then get used to my curmudgeonly ways.



> ok so fenwomen what exactly do you cross breed and why do you put the two breeds together?? what does a chi x have that a pure doesnt??


I used to breed lhasa apso cross chihuahua.Why? Because I find it interesting to see how they turn out. Generally I get 2 different sorts, one short coated, one longer coated. However the longer coated doesn't have the very thick long lhasa coat. It looks like a smaller daintier lhasa.The short coated ones are most attractive, like stockier, slightly undershot chihuahuas. Both have fab temperaments. Why? Because I like crossbred dogs. I like the difference in them, the unpredictability of type. Most of my dogs are crossbreds.



> not saying you in particular but what also really gets to me is there are no rules as of how many times a breeders can use a bitch and of what i can tell some people cross breed on the season inbetween a kc litter - poor bitches


 a lot of bad purebred breeders will breed a bitch every season from her first to her last. They can register all the pupies too. They simply have spare sets of papers as they register a non existant bitch in one litter and use those papers to register the puppies from subsequent litters or once she's reached her limit age wise etc. I know this happens because I have a friend who was an animal welfare officer who raided a puppy farmer and discovered this. Also discovered the kennel club registering a litter of puppies to a bitch who had had a previous litter registered the previous month. Hmm never knew a bitch have 2 litters with only 4 weeks between them. Sadly there are no guarantees even with purebred KC registered dogs



> i dont agree people shouldnt crossbreed as there are dogs in rescues because im sure there are plenty of pedigree dogs there too


 of course there are. Mainly staffies, rotties, GSD and the like. For people who are able to take on such an adult dog and deal with the issues, I'm all for it. Have been involved with rescue most of my adult life. However, for people who want a small breed puppy with full back up of an experienced dog person, then a large adult staffy from rescue just won't do.



> i agree it is right a repituble breeder can take back there own stock for the life of them all- no one says you have to keep it but you are responsable of bringing it into this world crossbred or not


 absolutely. When I bred and showed purebred dogs, I had a return contract. When I bred cross breed puppies, I had a return contract. My rehoming criteria are stricter than most rescues. I am notoriously fussy where my puppies go and tend to err on the side of caution. If someone comes who seems to tick all the boxes, but I have a 'feeling' about them, they don't go home with a puppy.



> also as there is no rule i worry alot of dogs will become much more inbred where as the kc have at last started to stop this from going on- no one can prove otherwise in crossbreeds -the bitches mum and dad could well be brother and sister then when the said bitch is bred who knows what will happen-


 As I said about the surplus registration form for a bitch which doesn't exist and the odd GSD registration, there are no guarantees with purebred dogs either. Even someone high up in a breed doesn't guarantee honesty as I found out to my cost when I bred my first ever litter and the stud dog owner persuaded me to let her hand rear some of the puppies and rehome them from her home. She registered them all in her name with her affix and I didn't find out until someone came up to me at a show and told me her dog was pick of litter. Only trouble is, it was my litter!!!
And this stud dog owner is very well known in the breed, has written books and is a champ judge.



> and how do you say what the dog will turnout like temprement wise mum or dad? esp when a toy and terrier breed is mixed???


I suppose experience tells you plus the dogs you kept from previous litters. I think that's half the fun with crossbred dogs, looking for particular traits. My old colllie cross retriever looked like a collie but would fetch a ball all day long and would carry stuff about too. 



> i dont think that when people think about cross breeding they always think good things- i dontt know to be honest- the bulldog could cirtainly do alot better healthwise being mixed up abit- not with a st bernard though!!!! yet i feel alot of people would rather have a purebred bulldog than a mixed one with better health- its a sad world we live in


 Personally it doesn't matter what species is being bred. Dogs, cats, rabbits, rats or parrots, there are good breeders who vet homes, explain things and turn away unsuitable people, and there are those who are only interested in making money. It's the way humans are. 



> im not having a go im sure you get the jist of my feelings i simply have questions!


 I don't mind genuine questions. I don't think I can really answer 100% why I prefer to breed my little crosses other than I like them. It's a bit like my asking you why you like St Bernards so much.


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

ambyglam said:


> I have two Chihuahua's and what I think is a shame is that people are trying to make the cross breeds trendier than the purebreeds by giving them names, especially since the handbag dog crew will pay anything for a tiny dog...heres some x's with hefty price tags...
> 
> chihuahua x Corgie =Chaworgie
> chihuahua x Shih Tzu = Shihuahua
> ...


 Are people trying to make the crosses trendier?
I sincerely hope that my dogs never become trendy. I don't breed fashion statements and would send off with a big flea in ear and silly girl who wanted a dog to treat as a handbag accessory or a toy. Them what knows me on here can well imagine my reaction to a request for one of my pups from such a person.:lol2::lol2::lol2:
So they have daft names. Can't see the problem there. I don't call my lhasa crosses chiwapsos either nor do they have hefty price tags.
I could advertise them for £2000 each. Don't mean they'd actually sell for that amount though.
I don't think you can generalise what a crossbreed breeder is like, or what a purebred breeder is like for that matter. There are reputable caring people and unscrupulous money motivated people in both cross and pure breeds.
Incidentally, I keep parrots. I have pairs of amazons and some of the larger conures. They fetch a lot of money. However, I do not breed parrots. Do not provide nest boxes and am not interested in breeding parrots. I see how many people get one on a whim, keep it a few years, then sell it on again and they go from home to home to home which messes with their minds as they bond as closely as any dog does.


----------



## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> I think I posted such a pic last year but a couple of the 'clique' used it as an excuse to moan about the mud in the dog room. I daren't take a photo of Ursa or the other dogs until the land has dried up a bit cos unless I stop them gallping about outside playing, or unless I do nothing all day except wash the walls, doors and floors every time any of the dogs comes back indoors, the clique will tell me what a slut I am and how 'all their mother's dog rooms' are always spotless. (hmm I wonder if the mother also has a smallholding with muddy fields and allows her dogs to play outside whenever they want, in which case, perhaps she could let me into the secret of how they don't bring mud in or how she keeps them clean without having to spend all day washing everything down like the Forth rail bridge, starting again just as soon as she's done.
> Yesterday morning I swabbed all the floors. I chuck a bucket of hot bleachy water down in the living room, scrub the tiles, then squeegy the water into the kitchen. Scrub the quarry tiles in there , then mop the dirty water up, pour away and repeat in the dog room. I had literally turned my back to pour the muddy water down the toilet, turned back again, and all the floors were filthy muddy again. It hadn't stayed clean for more than 3 minutes. I'd so love to know how other smallholders with several dogs, manage to keep the place clean. Unless of course, they hadn't got a smallholding, and the dogs didn't gallop about outside on wet muddy fields, in which case, they had a flipping cheek commenting.
> So, until the land dried up and my dogs don't get muddy whilst playing tag outside, I daren't take any photos, because city dwellers with one or two dogs who get walked on clean concrete and tarmac no more than twice a day, and have their feet wiped when they get indoors, will judge my country dogs for being muddy and bringing mud into the house.


 
I mop in the mornings, emmy gos outside for an hour with the baby, they come in covered with mud, Why do i bother mopping? i dont know :lol2:

Do i keep them in so they dont make a mess.... nope, they can mud the floors all they like coz as soon as there both in bed, the mop comes out and i enjoy my evening in my nice clean bungalow :lol2:


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> Newbies either like me or hate me. Most start of hating me but then get used to my curmudgeonly ways.


well i think your humor is fantastic:lol2:




fenwoman said:


> a lot of bad purebred breeders will breed a bitch every season from her first to her last. They can register all the pupies too. They simply have spare sets of papers as they register a non existant bitch in one litter and use those papers to register the puppies from subsequent litters or once she's reached her limit age wise etc. I know this happens because I have a friend who was an animal welfare officer who raided a puppy farmer and discovered this. Also discovered the kennel club registering a litter of puppies to a bitch who had had a previous litter registered the previous month. Hmm never knew a bitch have 2 litters with only 4 weeks between them. Sadly there are no guarantees even with purebred KC registered dogs.


 
1st of all i dont know when this was but im sure if it was tried now days the kc would pick up on it and not reg the litter

you can only register a litter with the kc until the bitch reachs the age limit set by the kc or until the bitch hits the limit of litters aloud by the kc

so i dont think you can reg a litter every season also if you reg 5 or more litters a year you need a breeding licence do you need this in crossbreds???



the kc are far from perfect but at least there is some regultion ive just recently had a home check by the accredited breeder scheme and i can tell you they check everything which has only been going on for about 6 months so its getting better


----------



## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

missmoore said:


> well i think your humor is fantastic:lol2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Yes, you would still need a licence regardless of what dog your breeding.
The Licence is set by the local council, and you'd also need to be booking keeping to pay tax as anyone breeding that many is doing so as a buisness.


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

Pimperella said:


> Yes, you would still need a licence regardless of what dog your breeding.
> The Licence is set by the local council, and you'd also need to be booking keeping to pay tax as anyone breeding that many is doing so as a buisness.


how would the council know that you are breeding crossbreds????

you dont register them

with purebreds you register them with the kc and if you reg 5 or more a year they ask for your breeders licence


----------



## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

missmoore said:


> how would the council know that you are breeding crossbreds????
> 
> you dont register them
> 
> with purebreds you register them with the kc and if you reg 5 or more a year they ask for your breeders licence


 
They would know. Your neighbours, checking out local adverts. 
Anyone who came and had nose put out.

I know they check the internet and make checks on Adverts if they see a few adverts coming up from the same details.

Your local Animal Welfare officers do do these checks.


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

if your dogs are inside how would neighbours know???

as for somebody coming a pup how would they know if this is your 1st or 10th litter of the year????

ok fair enough they might spot your ad a few times but that is the only way as far as i can tell 

with kc dogs on registering your 5 litter you must supply the licence 
no licence no registration


----------



## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

I would ban the kc... they are a bunch of Nazi's end of!

I have 2 dogs who both have pedigrees, one USED to be kc registered as a gift from the breeder because there had been complications with a previous puppy. However neither one is KC registered now and I am proud to say so as that bunch of Nazis need their bloody heads looked at. They have ruined soooo many breeds by changing this and sorting out that!

Im sure the KC registered german shepards are all proud to have sloping backs and hip problems!

Im sure all the KC registered bulldogs love their breathing difficulties.

These people have no lives and no respect for life.

The thing that scares me is that they see nothing wrong with what they are doing as it all for the look of the enimal...not the health.


----------



## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

missmoore said:


> if your dogs are inside how would neighbours know???
> 
> as for somebody coming a pup how would they know if this is your 1st or 10th litter of the year????
> 
> ...


 
Believe me, they find out. I know people who have been done on it. They can and do find out.
The fines are huge and they can make a lot of money from both the fines and the licencing. Then they forward the details to the Taxman aswell.


----------



## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

ambyglam said:


> I would ban the kc... they are a bunch of Nazi's end of!
> 
> I have 2 dogs who both have pedigrees, one USED to be kc registered as a gift from the breeder because there had been complications with a previous puppy. *However neither one is KC registered now* and I am proud to say so as that bunch of Nazis need their bloody heads looked at. They have ruined soooo many breeds by changing this and sorting out that!
> 
> ...


 
Sorry, you really ahven't a clue then. 
Once KC reg, Always KC reg. Very simple.
They don't just take a dog off the KC register.


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

The KC might not be the best organisation going, but at the moment they are the only ones who put some limits on how often people breed from the same bitch and how young.

Without the KC, the poor dogs wouldnt even have that protection. And yes, I know there are ways around that too - but still, they're the only ones who try - surely it's time there were more restrictions on thes so called breeders (multipliers) for the dogs' safety?


----------



## diamondlil (May 7, 2008)

ambyglam said:


> I would ban the kc... they are a bunch of Nazi's end of!
> 
> I have 2 dogs who both have pedigrees, one USED to be kc registered as a gift from the breeder because there had been complications with a previous puppy. However neither one is KC registered now and I am proud to say so as that bunch of Nazis need their bloody heads looked at. They have ruined soooo many breeds by changing this and sorting out that!
> 
> ...


:notworthy: Absolutely. I'd love the proud inbreeders who have reduced working breeds such as the german shepherd to total wrecks, bulldogs that can't whelp naturally......etc to stand up and say how much they 'love' their breeds. All to follow show fashion, not for health and soundness, in pursuit of show prizes. 
My sister has a lovely little pug, from top show lines, after 5 minutes of playing with my 'expensive crossbreed' he almost collapsed. I used to think I'd like a pug one day, but after hearing him having trouble breathing I'll stick to my lurcher girlie. She wouldn't win any prizes in the show ring, she's been bred for health and working ability so I'll hopefully have many years to enjoy her company


----------



## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

Pimperella said:


> Sorry, you really ahven't a clue then.
> Once KC reg, Always KC reg. Very simple.
> They don't just take a dog off the KC register.


well its funny how they have taken her off the register then isnt it... at the time they took her off the register they had received a huge amount of complaints from people wishing to be removed from the register. They actually sent me a letter telling my why i should Not remove her from their register and the benefits of staying on it.

So unless you have personally dealt with this I suggest you dont tell people they dont have a clue!

I will hunt for the emails in the next few days to show you the communications if you would like?


----------



## walder (Dec 10, 2008)

What I have issues with is people breeding any dog for money and I believe MOST of these cross breeds (and many purebreds of non show quality) are bred purely for that purpose, hence the stupid price tags. the country is over populated with dogs as it is.

If you want a cross breed go for a rescue.

If you want a purebred go to a breeder of good standing.

Not all people who breed purebreds are breeding for the correct reasons.

The idea of breeding is to produce dogs as close to the breed standard as possible.

Most responsible breeders only have a litter when they are considering keeping at least one pup themselves.


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I think I agree with you apart from point 4. Breeders should be breeding for health and temperament over breed standards every time, and the breed standards should reflect this (but dont). Most dogs bred to breed standard could not do the job they were originally created for because they have been pushed to the extreme. It's time the KC did something about this, from what I hear it's already starting but too little too late.

Apart from that, spot on.


----------



## walder (Dec 10, 2008)

I totally agree, health should be of utmost importance and should not be compromised for "the look" the breed standard requires.


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

why shouldnt breeders make money?????

why is it seen as such a bad thing???? if the health of the dogs are kept as a 1st priorty they why not???

most breeders i know always say "you never make money breeding" but im sorry thats bull:censor: 

its very hard work raising a litter and if you work out the profit made divided by the time involved most breeders who give a dam about there dogs are on less then the min wage!!!

but you still make money and i dont see anything wrong with breeders crossbreds or purebred making money as long as the welfair of the dog is not comprimised(sp)

it gets me that if people amit to making a profit in the breeding of dogs everyone jumps on there back screaming puppy farmer

have you ever seen a real puppy farmer?????

there is a world of differance between a farmer and a breeding kennel and the public must understand this 

the differance however is not profit

it is the condition of the dogs and the way they are kept

George


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I think it's unethical to make a profit out of an animal. So I charge roughly what it costs to raise them.

It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it, I dont expect everyone to agree, but it is sad that people think animals are there to make them money. You only have to look at greyhound racing to see how that goes horribly wrong for so many animals.


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

so in your opinion are pet shops unethical????

they make money out of animals

i think that breeders cross or pure should be able to make something for all th time and effort the put in for example 10 days before your bitch is due to whelp she needs to be watched 24 hours a day when you have pups the first five days you need to feed them every two hours then every three hours then every four untill they are fully weaned i think people dont relise how much work a good breeder puts in!!!!


what do you breed????

George


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Yes, in my opinion, pet shops are unethical - but that's a whole different thread, something certain pet shop owning posters know I dont agree with and why.

The clue is in my signature. Might not be to the scale of dog breeding, but it's still very important to me that my animals are well cared for and that my hobby funds itself, but no further than that. I breed to make other people have loving handlable pets, not to line my pocket. In fact in most cases (as I charge the same rate regardless of type or litter size) I lose money. But that's something I take on the chin for my hobby.


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

missmoore said:


> so in your opinion are pet shops unethical????
> 
> they make money out of animals
> 
> ...


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

ok sorry i thought by the way you were posting you bred dogs:lol2:

i dont know anything about rats but i know that with dogs as said in my last post you need to put in alot of time and effort into the puppies

my "hobby" also pays for itself i saty up for 3 weeks solid 24 hours a day i am in the house with the bitch and puppies- at the early stages the bitch will squash and kill young pups so the whole thing has to be supervised

so to me i charge for my puppies what i need to live so i can stay home and look after my bitch as needed- i do know breeders who work they often loose at least half there litters and to me this is wrong- i dont charge top pricefor my puppies but i do live of the money i make

i would much prefur to even up my price than leave a pregnant bitch home while i work for god knows what would happen to her or the pups if she whelped early ,

ive no idea how a rat whelps or what help they need but whelping and rearing a litter here takes at least 4 weeks of 24 hour care then i still dont go no futher than a qiuck nip to tesco until they leave -

cheri


----------



## diamondlil (May 7, 2008)

missmoore said:


> ok sorry i thought by the way you were posting you bred dogs:lol2:
> 
> i dont know anything about rats but i know that with dogs as said in my last post you need to put in alot of time and effort into the puppies
> 
> ...


What type of dog do you breed?


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

missmoore said:


> ok sorry i thought by the way you were posting you bred dogs:lol2:
> 
> i dont know anything about rats but i know that with dogs as said in my last post you need to put in alot of time and effort into the puppies
> 
> ...


The only difference is you cant hand rear baby rats (well, you can, but it's often unsuccessful). I guess to some being a smaller animal folks would assume it's not as stressful a process (some would assume that small pets dont need veterinary care because you can replace them cheaply - but not in my case).

I've raised a litter of pups (one of our rescue girls came to us pregnant), and could never do it again (it was too distressing watching our dog fade away in front of us despite the best care), and there's been times when I've lost a rat doe where I've thought I couldn't do it again. Same amount of stress, just less physical work, I guess.

As I speak, I've got a doe upstairs in my room who's already at day 23, looking massive, but with no movement in her tum. I'm not expecting her to give birth, but I hope she will today or tomorrow (I've only ever had one doe produce live babies at day 24). If not - then she will need veterinary care, possibly even a spay. Cost of a spay at my nearest vet is roughly the same as that for a dog. The other vet (across town) is much cheaper, but I've had a doe spayed at each and neither has survived the op.

So yep, it's as stressful. Definitely.


----------



## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

missmoore said:


> ok sorry i thought by the way you were posting you bred dogs:lol2:
> 
> i dont know anything about rats but i know that with dogs as said in my last post you need to put in alot of time and effort into the puppies
> 
> ...


Well, I do breed dogs. Rarely, only when I want a pup to keep and show, and I do not make any money on a litter. In fact, until now, when I am lucky enough not to have to work, I have had to take time off from self employment to have a litter, so have lost money. 

I agree with LisaLQ and think it is unethical to make money breeding dogs. 
Also, having looked on your website, I am not suprise dyou think it is OK to breed dogs to make money. Unless the information on ther eis incorrect, you were planning to mate your St. Bernard bitch in November, despite her having a litter earlier this year. Has she even had a clear season in between? On top of that, you planned to mate another bitch in November also. So, three planned litters of a large breed that has a large number of pups in one year, at a time when people are having to cut back financially... I also notice there's no mention of jhealth testing on your site. Odd, considering how important it is....


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

Shell195 said:


> missmoore said:
> 
> 
> > Im confused by this statement as providing the bitch has milk she will do this. Most breeders especially of large dogs start weaning at 2/3 weeks old with a tiny bit of solid food increasing amounts and feeding times until they pups are fully weaned
> ...


----------



## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

ambyglam said:


> I would ban the kc... they are a bunch of Nazi's end of!
> 
> I have 2 dogs who both have pedigrees, one USED to be kc registered as a gift from the breeder because there had been complications with a previous puppy. However neither one is KC registered now and I am proud to say so as that bunch of Nazis need their bloody heads looked at. They have ruined soooo many breeds by changing this and sorting out that!
> 
> ...


 
Gosh, that's clearly entirely your own opinion, base don years of experience with pedigree dogs, and not at all based on _one_ extremely biased and sensationalist programme aired by the BBC... 

You don't seem to be aware of the fact that the KC are nto responsible for breed standards, the breed clubs are, and that whilst the KC may not be perfect, if they didn't exist, the dog world woul dbe in a much worse state... 

As for ALL KC reg. german Shepherds having sloping backs and hip problems... Nonsense! In fact, there has been dispute for years with the breed clubs about the two types of GSD and what people don't realise is the best of the breed, the ones that are shown in Germany, who Do have sloping backs, have to undergo very extensive working tests as well as be shown in the 'traditional' sense in order to gain any sort of title. 

I won't even bother going into the rest, but don't believe everything you see on TV....


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

midori said:


> Gosh, that's clearly entirely your own opinion, base don years of experience with pedigree dogs, and not at all based on _one_ extremely biased and sensationalist programme aired by the BBC...
> 
> You don't seem to be aware of the fact that the KC are nto responsible for breed standards, the breed clubs are, and that whilst the KC may not be perfect, if they didn't exist, the dog world woul dbe in a much worse state...
> 
> ...


 
I totally agree. The problem with a lot of GSD photos is that the dogs are trained to stand so it looks like the sloping back is extreme when its not. My friend breeds German GSD lines and her dogs are known for having no hip problems(her breeding dogs all have very low hip scores and excellent elbows) as they are from working lines and live long healthy active lives. A lot of hip problems in large dogs are caused by over exercising them before they are mature.


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Or underexercising. Blu has hip dysplasia and spinal damage our vet believes is directly related to the conditions he was found in (he was chained up for the first 4-5 years of his life, outside, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year).


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

missmoore said:


> Shell195 said:
> 
> 
> > some breeders do leave the bitch to feed but a st bernard bitch is huge compared to the size of her pups and will crush them i do not leave the pups on mum full time i have them next to her in a crate when i am unable to watch them eg i need to use the toilet
> ...


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> Or underexercising. Blu has hip dysplasia and spinal damage our vet believes is directly related to the conditions he was found in (he was chained up for the first 4-5 years of his life, outside, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year).


 

Poor sod. It always amazes me when people get dogs to keep them like this, there is just no need at all:bash:


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Yeah, he's happy now though thanks to his rescuers, his foster home, and then the rescue letting him joins us. He'll have been here 2 years in a month - funny how quick time flies. Shame their life expectancy is so low, we're so thankful he's made it to this Christmas, considering a month or two back we were certain he'd be put to sleep (he was in a great deal of pain - now with pain relief, magnetic collar, limited exercise and glucosamine/cod liver oil - he's back to bouncy pup!).:flrt:


----------



## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*breeding ethics*



Shell195 said:


> I took my Rottie and GSD for a run on the fields the other day and when I came back home they plastered the house with mud


A clean house is the sign of a wasted life.


I think the internet has played a big part in dog breeding mushrooming out of all control.You can just shop for them the same as any merchandise.Puppy farmers can get a wide audience for their tea cup puppies .Some friends,I use the word loosely ,bought a chihuahua pup off of preloved unseen and simply met up with the breeder on the motorway to exchange pup and money.The pups called cracker,they ought to add an s to that.


----------



## shiftylou (Apr 27, 2008)

I paid £120 for my collie cross jack russel. he wasnt bred on purpose and his mum was the jack russela nd his dad was a farmers collie! he just looks like a mini collie and he acts and behaves like one too with the added hyperness of a jack russel!! I love collie's and had grown up with them when younger so was happy with a breed that matched the behaviour of one aswell as not growing as large as one too!

I must admit that some people do charge an excessive amount for random mixes, but each to there own how they spend there money, if someone wants to pay that amount then let them.

I paid nearly 10 times as much as I paid for my collie cross for my chihuahua but she is registered and I would love to end up showing her.


----------



## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

midori said:


> Gosh, that's clearly entirely your own opinion, base don years of experience with pedigree dogs, and not at all based on _one_ extremely biased and sensationalist programme aired by the BBC...


It was more the information and disgust expressed by a friend of mine who worked on the programme actually. She said that many of the top breeders had a very Nazi like attitude and that it was all about the look of the dog regardless of how healthy the dog is. She also could not believe just how adamant most of them were that their breed was the best and only dog worth bothering with and how they just needed to breed the legs a little longer or the ears a little smaller or all sorts of nonsense just to 'make' the perfect dog. Anyway its all for their own glory they want to win because they feel the need to be the best...I suggest they go find better ways to be the best than messing with the animal kingdom...or maybe seek therapy due to their obvious inferiority complex, probably due to their upbringing as thats where most peoples problems stem from. These people put completely healthy dogs down just because they are not perfect in their eyes... such as I have discussed before, a rhodesian ridgeback with no ridge or a dalmation with a huge patch... surely as good a pet as any other... Im sorry to be repeating myself but does blonde hair blue eyes and hitler not spring to mind! People who have to prove how good they can be at the cost of others...in this case the dogs... need to sort themselves out. I even know dog breeders who think that agility and things like that at dog shows are a complete waste of time as its not about the breeding...but I think there are a hell of a lot more healthy dogs taking part in the agility than there are standing in the ring wheezing and on pain killers just to acheive a look!

And the funny thing is that you jump on the 'oh you saw that bbc programme' bandwagon. Well could you ask me how...I do not watch television and I do not have a television...so wrong again.

The first I saw of it was a small 5 minute bit on youtube last week when looking up about the ridgebacks.

The information I got was from a friend...DIRECT FROM SOURCE, and to be honest a lot of people I know who actually breed dogs are disgusted with the way certain breeds are headed.

So dont think you know me or can judge me without knowing the full story.


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

To be fair, that programme was the biggest pile of pap ever made for telly, if I were your friend, I'd be ashamed for working on it and letting it go out with such misinformation.

I hope your friend isn't Emma Milne, she's a disgusting waste of air isnt she.


----------



## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

ambyglam said:


> Im sure all the KC registered bulldogs love their breathing difficulties./QUOTE]
> 
> mines kc registered
> and has perfectly fine breathing
> ...


----------



## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> To be fair, that programme was the biggest pile of pap ever made for telly, if I were your friend, I'd be ashamed for working on it and letting it go out with such misinformation.
> 
> I hope your friend isn't Emma Milne, she's a disgusting waste of air isnt she.


No it wasnt her... and I wouldnt knowanything about Emma Milne ...I dont have tv!!!

My friend was one of the researchers and to be honest she was hardly responsible for what went on air, but then again I had my info from her before the programme was put together!


----------



## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

LisaLQ said:


> To be fair, that programme was the biggest pile of pap ever made for telly, if I were your friend, I'd be ashamed for working on it and letting it go out with such misinformation.
> 
> I hope your friend isn't Emma Milne, she's a disgusting waste of air isnt she.


:lol2: 

I agree... 



ambyglam said:


> It was more the information and disgust expressed by a friend of mine who worked on the programme actually. She said that many of the top breeders had a very Nazi like attitude and that it was all about the look of the dog regardless of how healthy the dog is. She also could not believe just how adamant most of them were that their breed was the best and only dog worth bothering with and how they just needed to breed the legs a little longer or the ears a little smaller or all sorts of nonsense just to 'make' the perfect dog. Anyway its all for their own glory they want to win because they feel the need to be the best...I suggest they go find better ways to be the best than messing with the animal kingdom...or maybe seek therapy due to their obvious inferiority complex, probably due to their upbringing as thats where most peoples problems stem from. These people put completely healthy dogs down just because they are not perfect in their eyes... such as I have discussed before, a rhodesian ridgeback with no ridge or a dalmation with a huge patch... surely as good a pet as any other... Im sorry to be repeating myself but does blonde hair blue eyes and hitler not spring to mind! People who have to prove how good they can be at the cost of others...in this case the dogs... need to sort themselves out. I even know dog breeders who think that agility and things like that at dog shows are a complete waste of time as its not about the breeding...but I think there are a hell of a lot more healthy dogs taking part in the agility than there are standing in the ring wheezing and on pain killers just to acheive a look!
> 
> And the funny thing is that you jump on the 'oh you saw that bbc programme' bandwagon. Well could you ask me how...I do not watch television and I do not have a television...so wrong again.
> 
> ...


 
Perhaps you would like to tell me what good the programme your friend worked on did the dog world? I'll tell you what damage it did... it lead to a LOT of people jumping ont he bandwagon and saying that breeders who show or KC register were basically immoral scum and that they didn't want to buy KC reg. dogs. It also lead to puppy farmers and BYB's rubbing their hands together ing lee and advertising their mass produced, un health tested litters using the words 'do nto show, not KC registered' as if that was something to be proud of. 

What I can tell you is whilst not all breeders who KC register are whiter than white, you will be hard pushed to find someone who _doesn't_ KC register who breeds ethically. 

Why not make a programme that educates the general public on how to go about finding a well bred dog, and what to look out for regarding puppy farmers, BYB's etc. How to contact breed clubs and check health tests of parent dogs etc?

VERY, VERY few breeders these days cull puppies that aren't the right colour, or don't have a ridge etc. Also, the programme stated DS in Ridgebacks only occurs in Ridged dogs, when in fact, it occurs in non ridged Ridgebacks, and in fact, other breeds of dogs that do not have and have never had a ridge. 

There was all sort so mis-information inthe programme, and it's sole aim was to get viewing time and 'shock factor'. It did nothing but damage the already horrific situation with dogs in this country.

It seems ot me that you're juding the KC without knowing the full story, and if your friend was one of the researchers,s he didn't research very well, did she?!


----------



## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

pigglywiggly said:


> ambyglam said:
> 
> 
> > Im sure all the KC registered bulldogs love their breathing difficulties./QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

midori said:


> Perhaps you would like to tell me what good the programme your friend worked on did the dog world? I'll tell you what damage it did... it lead to a LOT of people jumping ont he bandwagon and saying that breeders who show or KC register were basically immoral scum and that they didn't want to buy KC reg. dogs. It also lead to puppy farmers and BYB's rubbing their hands together ing lee and advertising their mass produced, un health tested litters using the words 'do nto show, not KC registered' as if that was something to be proud of.
> 
> What I can tell you is whilst not all breeders who KC register are whiter than white, you will be hard pushed to find someone who _doesn't_ KC register who breeds ethically.
> 
> ...


:2thumb::notworthy::no1::notworthy::2thumb:


----------



## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

ambyglam said:


> pigglywiggly said:
> 
> 
> > well your very lucky, but many owners are not...its as simple as that.
> ...


----------



## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

ambyglam said:


> pigglywiggly said:
> 
> 
> > well your very lucky, but many owners are not...its as simple as that.
> ...


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

diamondlil said:


> What type of dog do you breed?


I breed st bernards :2thumb:

visit my website if you like
www.fairviewstbernards.co.uk

cheri


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

midori said:


> Well, I do breed dogs. Rarely, only when I want a pup to keep and show, and I do not make any money on a litter. In fact, until now, when I am lucky enough not to have to work, I have had to take time off from self employment to have a litter, so have lost money.


What do you breed???



midori said:


> I agree with LisaLQ and think it is unethical to make money breeding dogs.
> Also, having looked on your website, I am not suprise dyou think it is OK to breed dogs to make money. Unless the information on ther eis incorrect, you were planning to mate your St. Bernard bitch in November, despite her having a litter earlier this year. Has she even had a clear season in between? On top of that, you planned to mate another bitch in November also. So, three planned litters of a large breed that has a large number of pups in one year, at a time when people are having to cut back financially... I also notice there's no mention of jhealth testing on your site. Odd, considering how important it is....


Of course she has had a clear season daisy and dora both have 4 month cycles so they are fine- one of the bitches missed so thats one less but regardless if they were to have all come into season on the same day i would have mated them all firstly i have two members of staff if needed and secondly i have a waiting list of 36 where i actually have deposits for puppies despite the bitches not evenb beeing in season at the time most were given!!!

in our breed you need to only hip score that has been done on all the old enough bitchs, dora has also been heart tested ( done at a show) diesel isnt old enough until the 17th when he is booked in and he has had his eyes tested even though its not required- at the next clinic near by they will be eye tested but as said its not needed

daisy was of course checked by a vet at the time of premating her and he was more than happy to know she was being mated- 

as said im not breeding without homes out of the 36 on my list over half have deposited and some have been waiting on my list since dora missed last time who havent gave me deposits but havent gone else where in the mean time.....

i can say i honestly have puppies back if need be, i have one on holiday now as her mum is in hospital and i will take back pups for life

after having dora miss last time and having such a long waiting list and the fact i will be keeping at least two and some are going on co ownership and one is going to a childrens home there may not be many left- daisy has 4 puppies inside her dory missed and dora is yet to be confirmed

also i have 3 people from the last litter comming back for another 

i have not yet come across any one who is struggling to buy a puppy they cut back on the unimportant things like going to the pub etc and also if the ressecion has hit now so if they can buy a puppy now the chances are they will be ok to pay for it- id never see any of my pups in a home and my sales contract states i will take back any dog before it goes in a home

btw do you think if i sold a kc reg st bernard pup flead wormed microchipped insured for a year with a £40 bag of holistic food toys and a blanket etc for say £300 people would think this was good- i think they wouldnt go near the advert or dog as its just not the "normal" price

the insurance alone for a year ranges from £100 upwards 
the food its raised on is £40 a bag i use loads! 
vet trips and microchipping arent free either!!
blankets toys and cleaning stuff that all gets used while they live here....
the heat lamps that rocket my electric bills
the food my bitch needs plus her vet care- not to mention the call out charge i insist the bitch has a home vet check they day she has pups along with a oxytocin injection
dew claw removal 
2 4 6 and 8 week checkups
washing powder and disinfectant alone was £50!!!
worming tablets for all....

the list goes on and dont forget i have to eat live- i wouldnt ever mate a bitch if i had to work my bitch gets all the time she needs from me- i question how anyone can work and give 100% to there bitch and puppies

i even missed my own daughters birthday party for daisys litter dispite being able to pay for help i stayed with her 

there will be plenty more partys 

cheri


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> (some would assume that small pets dont need veterinary care because you can replace them cheaply - but not in my case).
> So yep, it's as stressful. Definitely.


i totally agree its just as much heart ache no matter what the size of price of your pet


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

Shell195 said:


> missmoore said:
> 
> 
> > You dont have to do this with large breed dogs so it must be a Giant breed thing. I was curious thats all
> ...


----------



## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

missmoore said:


> What do you breed???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I breed Golden Retrievers. 

I'm sorry, but I have put in bold above appears to be a blatent lie. 

The St. Bernard breed clubs actually suggest hip, elbow scoring, and heart testing. It seems that two of your bitches are not health tested _at all_, despite you being a 'KC Accredited Breeder'. (it makes a mockery of the scheme, and is the reason myself and many of my friends in the dog world have decided against joining the scheme, it means nothing... )

If you are happy to breed a bitch twice in one year, which is what you are doing, and mate a bitch under 18 months, which you have also done (not just any breed, a Giant breed which matures much later than most other breeds) and feel there is no problem with it, then that is up to you. You aren't breaking any laws, and no-one can stop you. However, I seriously doubt you would find any decent breeder who thinks a St. Bernard bitch should have had two litters before three years of age, especially when she isn't even health tested.... 

I am not saying you should charge less for a puppy, but despite your personal view on the subject, rescues are fuller than ever, with people handing in whole litters of puppies that are unsold (I know myself, even those with the best intentions can pull out of waiting lists) and there is no need to breed so many litters per year when there are so many dogs in rescue. 

Like I said, it is entirely your personal choice, you're not breaking any laws (I assume you are declaring your 'earnings' to the tax man?) so no-one can stop you. But then again, the same goes for puppy farmers.... :whistling2:


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

My friend is an Accredited breeder and is horrified that nobody has ever been out to check her dogs or premises so yes I agree the scheme is a mockery.

I always thought the norm was to never breed more than once in a 12 month period or in a bitch under 2 years old.


----------



## walder (Dec 10, 2008)

I don't think there is anything wrong with RESPONSIBLE breeders charging the market rate for pure bred puppies to ensure good homes and to cover the costs of all necessary health testing etc but I think anything in excess of £200-250 for a cross breed is ridiculous.

Only pure breds with good show records should be intentionally bred from, with the aim of improving the breed in terms of health as well as "type".

If a dog/ bitch does not fit this criteria it should be neutered in my opinion.

This would lessen the strain on all the rescue organistions across the country

I also believe there should be restrictions of some sort as to who may breed animals (dogs in particular) and how many litters per year.

If it is really a HOBBY and not a money making venture, surely one, maybe two litters a year is enough for anyone.


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

which two would that be? dory isnt that i do know as she was sold hip scored but the bva cant find her at all and destiny who is if you looked preoperly not even a year old??? 

diesel again is not hip scored and he isnt quite a year either but is booked in both daisy and dora are hip scored??? dora is also heart tested with papers daisy was heart tested before going under to be hip scored but not "offically" so no papers there until i get it done again

dory is my only bitch of age who is not hip scored - but due to knowing most of her litter mates results i wasnt to scared to do it- 

either way i personally feel hip scoring is a load of rubbish due to being no policing of it and also just so you know the breed clubs say differently to what they do..... just look at some members dogs none at all are hip sccored or tested a couple of them have over 20 breeding dogs all kept in small kennels and some have even more.............

before you start slinging around the words puppy farmer you should go take alook at some proper puppy farmers- ive been there and been unable to breath from the stench , unable to move from the messs of cages and crates and lets not mention the dogs there at all what you see on my website is far far from that

do you have a website??? 

cheri


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

Shell195 said:


> My friend is an Accredited breeder and is horrified that nobody has ever been out to check her dogs or premises so yes I agree the scheme is a mockery.


it started 6 months ago , volenteers come round and take pictures and fill out 3 different forms 

ive had mine not so long ago- what gets me is they give you notice rather than spot checks!!!


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

walder said:


> I don't think there is anything wrong with RESPONSIBLE breeders charging the market rate for pure bred puppies to ensure good homes and to cover the costs of all necessary health testing etc but I think anything in excess of £200-250 for a cross breed is ridiculous.
> 
> Only pure breds with good show records should be intentionally bred from, with the aim of improving the breed in terms of health as well as "type".
> 
> ...


 
there is a "cap" on the amount you can breed before you need a licence and the problem is you may well have the best dog/bitch to breed standard but get no where in the show ring because your face dosent fit


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

Shell195 said:


> I always thought the norm was to never breed more than once in a 12 month period or in a bitch under 2 years old.


the kc will register a litter every 6 months from the same bitch and the kc also only asks for the bitch to be 1 year old the rest is down to the breeder

daisy was 2 weeks under 18 months when we mated her and we felt as she was the bigger bitch out of her and dora it was ok- she had ten pups and recovered very well and very quickly i also feel letting a bitch have a litter later in life is just as bad- i retire mine after 3 litters or after 5 years old whichever comes first

i have now mated daisy again 49 weeks since the last time so just under a year as said she is in top condition- she cycles every 4 months (ish) so she did have a season between - however the kc wouldnt do anything if she didnt


----------



## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

missmoore said:


> which two would that be? dory isnt that i do know as she was sold hip scored but the bva cant find her at all and destiny who is if you looked preoperly not even a year old???
> 
> diesel again is not hip scored and he isnt quite a year either but is booked in both daisy and dora are hip scored??? dora is also heart tested with papers daisy was heart tested before going under to be hip scored but not "offically" so no papers there until i get it done again
> 
> ...


 
No, I don't have a website, I have no need for one. 

I don't understand how a dog can be 'unofficially' hip scored? Maybe you can explain that to me? The x rays are taken, submitted to the BVA, who score them, and the results are automatically recorded with the KC. The only 'unnoffical' way I can think of is if the vet looks at the x rays but doesn't submit to the BVA, and I have no idea why anyone would do this? 

Also, we all do things differently, but personally, if I were told a bitch was scored when I bought it, and then the BVA or KC had no record of the results, I'd assume it hadn't been scored and get it done again before even considering breeding from her. The fact her litter mates had low scores has no real bearing, my youngest bitch (she isn't scored as she is having undiagnosed fits so will never be bred from and I see no need to risk an anaesthetic) has two litter siblings scored, one has a total score of
6, which is pretty low in the breed, and the other a score of 54, obviously horrendously high. I also know of someone with a dog who's parents and siblings had low scores, but he has a score of 96 and severe dysplacia. 

Despite whether you personally feel hip scoring is 'a load of rubbish' the fact is the BVA and KC feel it is a good idea and to be encouraged, based on medical evidence. What others do or 'get away with' should have no bearing on your own decision to test. 

My very good friend has a St. Bernard who's breeders thought hip scoring and health testing was 'a load of rubbish'. She bought the dog against my advice, thinking it wouldn't happen to her. The bitch has one of the worst case of hip dysplacia the vet has ever seen, and is in agony frequently. Maybe it wasn't preventable, but it could have been. The fact that the breeder didn't even care enough to do everything possible to prevent it makes me sick.


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

i trusted the person who told me she was scored that was a mistake on my part and i hold my hands up to that she will be done before she is bred from the vet had record of her being done so at the time that was good enough for me

sorry to hear about your friends st bernard i cant stand the thought of a dog in pain no matter what breed- i do know of one breeder whos puppies are always comming out bad for hip scores yet most of her dogs and bitches are champions - have you seen in the dog papers about them health testing dogs BEFORE they are made into champions- i think its a great idea

yes i do feel hip scoring is a load of rubbish but maybe i should have said because there is no cut off point for what you can breed from there is breed "means" but there is no actuall cut off( i tend to half explain myself and expect you to mind read sorry !!!)

also i know of people who score a dog at the vets and dont send it in if its bad- loads dont make it to the bva so the "breed mean" is only from the "better" scores people do decide to send in. one vet alot of st bernard people use because he wont send them in if they are bad so we arent getting any true readings for our breed and proberly many others 

what treatment has your friends dog tried i know that hydro worked really well for a friends saint- not bred by me!!! 

also there is a great hands on massager this way you loads of people claim really work!!! i suppose id try anything to see if it helped!

cheri


----------



## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

missmoore said:


> i trusted the person who told me she was scored that was a mistake on my part and i hold my hands up to that she will be done before she is bred from the vet had record of her being done so at the time that was good enough for me
> 
> sorry to hear about your friends st bernard i cant stand the thought of a dog in pain no matter what breed- i do know of one breeder whos puppies are always comming out bad for hip scores yet most of her dogs and bitches are champions - have you seen in the dog papers about them health testing dogs BEFORE they are made into champions- i think its a great idea
> 
> ...


I get what you mean when you say the breeder can still breed, no matter how high the score, but that is down to the breeders discretion. Doesn't mean we all have to do it. 

It's clear we have quite different ethics on the subject,a nd I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I wonder if some of it is bad advice you have recieved from others early on, as it seems to me you are quite new to this. (I am pretty new myself, in the scheme of things, I suppose) I got some bad advice initially, and recently was told that my youngest botches fits are no reason not to breed from her. Some people are just in cloud cuckoo land.... :bash:

My friends dog is not much over a year old and needs to have surgery on both hips.


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

i am not saying i would breed from a high hip scored dog im saying 

example person has there dog hip scored and it comes back45:45 there is nothing the kc do to stop them breeding that bitch and thats what really gets on my nerves!!!

my god at a year they must be soooo bad poor dog the thing is as your firend cant prove its the breeders fault ie its not passed from pup to parent and the rest of the litter could be fine nothing will ever be done about it by the breeder

this is where i think breeders should take more responability for the dogs they breed, i bet the breeder wont offer and help on this matter- as said i give the first years insurance with my pups that just helps to cover anything going wrong but sometimes people even take that as not being kind but that i am expecting something to go wrong

cheri

ps night! im off to bed!!!


----------



## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

I could take you to several folk who've sued their back yard breeder for failing to hipscore their breeding animals and produced affected pups, 1 has all her vet bills paid by the Breeder via court action. Now had this breeder also tested but continued to breed with above BMA scores the outcome would be the same, if the scores had been below BMA the judge advised it would have gone against buyer as breeder had made all reasonable efforts to avoid producing affect progeny.

My breed have no health tests listed but I've spent approx £3k this year on testing 6 of my dogs, 1 is in a pet home but is to be used for breeding so is tested at MY expense. 1 of the 6 has since died from a brain bleed totally random event cause by malformation of vessels during developement NOT an inherited problem, so purely from a finacial heartless point of view some would say what a waste of £350!

My breed are small ie 7kgs, hardy, long lived, self whelping and very active, average age is 16yrs with oldest being a 21 yr old bitch. Despite all that I wouldn't dream of breeding a bitch before she was 2 1/2 - 3 yr old give the poor girl a chance of growing up and being mentally fit as well as physically mature enough to cope with producing and rearing a litter. There are only 12 - 13 of us breeding in the UK with a very limited gene pool yet our dogs are as healthy as can be despite ONLY being bred by Show breeders, makes a bit of a mockery of THAT program last yr. The breed is not unique in doing so, many show breeders have generations of fit healthy dogs in their homes who are not only fit on vet examinations but fit under the skin via further testing the likes of which isn't 'generally' seen amongst the designer expensive cross breeders homes.

I have been an ABS member since it started and despair of the lack of accolades for the important stuff such as health screening. I don't care if a breeder has champions or stud book numbers all that tells me is they show. Litter numbers would be more informative if they listed how many litters over x amount of yrs, we'd soon see the barely legal puppy mills who have 4 litters per yr.


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Schip said:


> My breed have no health tests listed but I've spent approx £3k this year on testing 6 of my dogs, 1 is in a pet home but is to be used for breeding so is tested at MY expense. 1 of the 6 has since died from a brain bleed totally random event cause by malformation of vessels during developement NOT an inherited problem, so purely from a finacial heartless point of view some would say what a waste of £350!


 my collie cross died from a brain bleed also. It was because of his hereditary epilepsy. Whicxh I understand, is an also issue with schipperkes,along with legge-perthes and MPSIIIB.



> There are only 12 - 13 of us breeding in the UK with a very limited gene pool yet our dogs are as healthy as can be despite ONLY being bred by Show breeders, makes a bit of a mockery of THAT program last yr.


 given so few breeders and such a small gene pool, do you happen to know the numbers which have epilepsy, legge-perthes and MPSIIIB?
Is the breed so exclusive that anyone whould even admit to having a problem? I know in one breed I have owned as a pet for some years, I bought a bitch which turned out to have legge-perthes and was told by the breeder not to tell anyone. She offered me a free pup from her next litter, plus paying half for the operation my Kate had to have, so desperate was she to keep it quiet. She also was adamant that it was not hereditary despite my breeder telling me otherwise. So a numerically small breed, ownd in the main by upper middle class and titled ladies, who wnated to hush things up and deny any problems in the breed. I just wonder if it is the same in your breed. But I suppose if people wanted to hush it up, you wouldn't hear about it would you :lol2:



> The breed is not unique in doing so, many show breeders have generations of fit healthy dogs in their homes who are not only fit on vet examinations but fit under the skin via further testing the likes of which isn't 'generally' seen amongst the designer expensive cross breeders homes.


 Crikey, I am unusual. Have not only 4 generations here but continue to test breeding stock for the most prevalent problems in the the breeds.



> we'd soon see the barely legal puppy mills who have 4 litters per yr.


 Hmmm, never understood the term 'barely legal'. I mean, something is either legal or illegal. There is no grey area. I think the law says that anyone can have up to 5 litters per year without having to have a breeder's licence. So if someone has say for example, 8 pet bitches, and has 3 litters per year total, in your eyes, that makes them puppy farmers? Would they be the same if they had 2 bitches and had 4 litters per year?


----------



## diamondlil (May 7, 2008)

walder said:


> I don't think there is anything wrong with RESPONSIBLE breeders charging the market rate for pure bred puppies to ensure good homes and to cover the costs of all necessary health testing etc but I think anything in excess of £200-250 for a cross breed is ridiculous.
> 
> Only pure breds with good show records should be intentionally bred from, with the aim of improving the breed in terms of health as well as "type".
> 
> ...


I have to disagree! I've got a lurcher, a bedlington x whippet. A purposely bred crossbreed, bred for health and type, that you can't get without crossing two pure dogs.


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Theoretically you can, as a lurcher can be made from two lurchers, or a lurcher cross purebreed sighthound/working breed.

But either way, I think they are somewhat an exception to the rule, although I do still think there are far too many bred and many by horrible people who wouldn't take a dog they'd bred back should it need rehoming, hence the huge numbers of lurchers in rescue.


----------



## mattsdragons (Jul 6, 2009)

my dog is a cross and people would still pay quite alto for her, we are talking £300+ coz of the genetics, giant schnauzer x border collie 2 pure bred pedagre dogs, one a working dog, one a agility dog. giant schnauzer x border collie thay are bred quite alot in europe because this cross is very good at agility!


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

midori said:


> My very good friend has a St. Bernard who's breeders thought hip scoring and health testing was 'a load of rubbish'. She bought the dog against my advice, thinking it wouldn't happen to her. The bitch has one of the worst case of hip dysplacia the vet has ever seen, and is in agony frequently. Maybe it wasn't preventable, but it could have been. The fact that the breeder didn't even care enough to do everything possible to prevent it makes me sick.


I know of more than one person in exactly the same boat. One has had their dog with severe HD since he was v. young, and it has been a heartbreaking rollercoaster for them both, and very expensive, I have lost touch recently but I believe *that* decision was having to be made, and he's nowt but a bairn as we'd say up here. Anyone who breeds these breeds without due care doesn't deserve them, and I think it's shocking that anyone would breed them repeatedly underaged and untested, just because "the KC won't do anything about it". Breaks my heart!


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

missmoore said:


> i am not saying i would breed from a high hip scored dog


How would you know if you're breeding untested dogs?


----------



## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

I did think the very same. Just because your St Bernard has apparently been hipscored, does not mean that the score was any good.
I'd be concerned at the fact that a hipscored animal can be said to be good with no evidence to show that it is rather than 'Yes she's hipscored but I have no idea what the score is.' She could very well have a high score and without you having evidence to prove otherwise then it is pointless to say she has been.


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

as said in other posts hd is NOT hereditary you can have two parents with scores of 106 each and still produce a pup with 0:0 hip score

but anyway everybody seems to jump on the hip score bandwagon what about temprement that is hereditary or eye problems it seems that to me alot of misinformed people love to shout about hip scores but seem to forget that its NOT hereditary

George


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Taken from one of the many websites about Canine HD

*Why Do Dogs Develop Hip Dysplasia?*​ 

Ligaments, muscles and other connective tissues often fail to properly develop in puppyhood due to several factors, including:

*Excessive Activity: *Too much activity, strenuous exercise or rough play injures the growing and developing tissues surrounding the joint, leading to the formation of hip dysplasia.
*Obesity:* An overweight dog’s joints will have to support more weight, thereby increasing the risk for damage and conditions like arthritis. Obesity in puppyhood can result in damage to the joint’s connective tissues during the growth and development period, resulting in lifelong problems.
*Diet: *Some studies suggest that dogs who eat diets high in protein and calcium are more prone to developing hip dysplasia.
*Heredity: *As previously mentioned, some dogs are genetically predisposed to developing a condition of laxity in the connective tissues surrounding the hip joints, and this leads to dysplasia. Dogs with muscular builds are also less prone to developing the condition, since the muscles provide support to the joint, and a dog’s build is largely determined by genetics


----------



## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

missmoore said:


> as said in other posts hd is NOT hereditary you can have two parents with scores of 106 each and still produce a pup with 0:0 hip score
> 
> but anyway everybody seems to jump on the hip score bandwagon what about temprement that is hereditary or eye problems it seems that to me alot of misinformed people love to shout about hip scores but seem to forget that its NOT hereditary
> 
> George


 
HD is hereditary otherwise there would be no need to test for it............

eyes problems the same most genuine breeders should also have eyes tested too...........

temprement..........well tbh you shouldnt be breeding from a dog that dosnt have a good temprement in the 1st place anyway as it can be passed down to pups............


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

missmoore said:


> as said in other posts hd is NOT hereditary you can have two parents with scores of 106 each and still produce a pup with 0:0 hip score


The point of hip scoring is to avoid breeding from dogs with poor hips. Are you saying you have experience of breeding dogs with the scores above? I have read about cases where low hip scored dogs produced puppies with higher hip scores, but I have never seen anyone own up to breeding from dogs with maximum scores like that?



> but anyway everybody seems to jump on the hip score bandwagon what about temprement that is hereditary or eye problems it seems that to me alot of misinformed people love to shout about hip scores but seem to forget that its NOT hereditary
> 
> George


I think it's sad that some people see breeding as something they're entitled to do regardless of quality, and those breeders accuse people with standards of "jumping on the bandwagon". People who are concerned about poor quality animals being bred to low standards that affect the welfare of the parents and offspring are not jumping on a bandwagon, and no decent breeder would say they were (in my estimation anyway!). Will you be this defensive with owners of your dogs when they end up with crippling HD?


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

no kathy my highest hip score is a total of 13 7:6

our breed mean is 21 ive seen a dog bred with 45/45 and the puppies have been low hip scores at a year old- this wasnt my bitch i just followed it in the breed supliments out of intrest

i do have heart and eye tests on some of mine i did plan to do daisy and doras eyes along with diesel and baby daisys but at the time i didnt know if they were in whelp and the vet said to do it after they had pups 

ive had 6 of my pups from daisy eye tested all came back perfect as was the dad who was also hip and heart tested

cheri


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I thought the idea of health testing was to do it before breeding?


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

KathyM said:


> The point of hip scoring is to avoid breeding from dogs with poor hips. Are you saying you have experience of breeding dogs with the scores above? I have read about cases where low hip scored dogs produced puppies with higher hip scores, but I have never seen anyone own up to breeding from dogs with maximum scores like that?
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's sad that some people see breeding as something they're entitled to do regardless of quality, and those breeders accuse people with standards of "jumping on the bandwagon". People who are concerned about poor quality animals being bred to low standards that affect the welfare of the parents and offspring are not jumping on a bandwagon, and no decent breeder would say they were (in my estimation anyway!). Will you be this defensive with owners of your dogs when they end up with crippling HD?


hi kathy your right i do sound defensive sorry about that.
you are more then welcome to come and check my "low standards" but you might not have to because as soon as my abs report for this year comes back i will be adding it to my webpage

then you can try to pick holes in that aswell it seems to me that you like to attack people and brand them as having "low standards" when you dont know me and have not seen my standards to class them as "low"

but anyway im sure one day with a bit of luck we will all be as perfect as you:notworthy:

George


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I dont claim to be perfect, I don't however understand your practices. Seeing as your only response is to attack those who question you, I gather you don't have a reason for them either. I ask again, will you be like this with new owners when your puppies get ill? Serious warning signs for potential buyers in your posts.

I don't understand why you breed if you're not even attempting to better the breed? Attacking me to deflect attention from yourself won't change that, people with sense will have the same questions?


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

That'll teach me not to read earlier posts - my apologies missmoore, I've now read about what you said about breeding for money and living off the profits. Do you declare these earnings to the Inland Revenue considering you say yourself it is your income? Legally it would be classed as a business and you'd be required to pay tax. Probably not a good idea to plaster your name and link about if you're not declaring.....


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

KathyM said:


> I dont claim to be perfect, I don't however understand your practices. Seeing as your only response is to attack those who question you, I gather you don't have a reason for them either. I ask again, will you be like this with new owners when your puppies get ill? Serious warning signs for potential buyers in your posts.
> 
> I don't understand why you breed if you're not even attempting to better the breed? Attacking me to deflect attention from yourself won't change that, people with sense will have the same questions?


 
perhaps you should ask your questions in a more polite way 

im not sure anybody with my pups will agree with you as i keep in touch with them all and once a year invite everybody back here for a summer bbq

im sorry if i seem defensive but if i wasnt being attacked there would be no need for me to defend 

i welcome any questions you or anybody might have as long as they are asked as questions and not worded in a way to try and make me look bad:bash:

What do you breed??
Do you show?

George


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

KathyM said:


> That'll teach me not to read earlier posts - my apologies missmoore, I've now read about what you said about breeding for money and living off the profits. Do you declare these earnings to the Inland Revenue considering you say yourself it is your income? Legally it would be classed as a business and you'd be required to pay tax. Probably not a good idea to plaster your name and link about if you're not declaring.....


come on kathy havent you had enough of constantly trying to attack me by now :devil:

should we get back to the subject of "expensive mongrals"

George


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

You're not being "attacked", you came on here saying St Bernards don't need health tests and unfortunately for you a few of us know differently. You overbreed your bitches, you breed them too young and you only health test "sometimes" AFTER you've made a couple of litters. You don't register puppies, you cut costs at every corner to make a profit, and you charge too much because if you charge what they're worth without all the tests, people might cotton onto you.

You said all of that in your own posts - if you don't like hearing that you're a puppy farmer or backyard breeder, then don't post it to people who have mopped up after people like you!  Poor bloody dogs.


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

missmoore said:


> come on kathy havent you had enough of constantly trying to attack me by now :devil:
> 
> should we get back to the subject of "expensive mongrals"
> 
> George


Constantly? That's about 5 minutes of retelling your posts back to you. Get a grip lol.


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

KathyM said:


> You're not being "attacked", you came on here saying St Bernards don't need health tests and unfortunately for you a few of us know differently. You overbreed your bitches, you breed them too young and you only health test "sometimes" AFTER you've made a couple of litters. You don't register puppies, you cut costs at every corner to make a profit, and you charge too much because if you charge what they're worth without all the tests, people might cotton onto you.
> 
> You said all of that in your own posts - if you don't like hearing that you're a puppy farmer or backyard breeder, then don't post it to people who have mopped up after people like you!  Poor bloody dogs.


its not me saying they dont need health tests the kc recomends hip scoring only mine have heart test hip scores eye tests and the two young ones when old enough will be getting elbows scored also

i just love the way people throw around the term puppy farmer it just shows that they are Ignorant as if you have seen a puppy farm you will know the condition of my animals are a million miles from that

as i said your more then welcome to come and inspect my dogs anytime 

puppy farmer :lol2:

George


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

KathyM said:


> Constantly? That's about 5 minutes of retelling your posts back to you. Get a grip lol.


sorry i find it hard to consentrate with all the puppy farming im apperently doing:lol2:

George


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

And I ask again - whats the point of health testing them after churning out litters already? Seriously - do you think you're anything other than a backyard breeder? TBH I've got half a mind to approach the KC about their Accredited Breeder program if someone can puppy farm on it....


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

missmoore said:


> sorry i find it hard to consentrate with all the puppy farming im apperently doing:lol2:
> 
> George


It's more serious that you thought. It's affecting your spelling too.


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

KathyM said:


> You don't register puppies,
> 
> .


when did i say i dont register puppies??? all my pups are registered ???

as for georges spellings.... ill leave that to him but i will say as his partner to go soooo low as to pick on someones spellings you are a sad person not everyone" just cant spell "some actually have learning problems dislexic etc maybe you should ask before you start that one

as for me im fine! i just cant spell !:lol2:

cheri


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I have emailed the KC to ask about their standards for the Accredited Breeder Scheme in light of the eyeopening things I've read on this thread. Let's hope they can come back to me with some information to share. :2thumb:


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Taken from the KC website:



> *Accredited Breeders must:*
> Ensure that all breeding stock is Kennel Club registered.
> Hand over the dog's registration certificate at time of sale if available, or forward it to the new owner as soon as possible. Explain any endorsements that might pertain and obtain written and signed confirmation from the new owner, at or before the date on which the dog is physically transferred, that the new owner is aware of the endorsement(s), regardless of whether or not the endorsed registration certificate is available.
> 
> ...




Can you tell me missmoore, do you live up to ALL of the required points? Your posts say you do not?


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

KathyM said:


> Taken from the KC website:
> 
> [/LIST]Can you tell me missmoore, do you live up to ALL of the required points? Your posts say you do not?


in fact yes i can

and hopefully by next week i will have my report back as i was assesd on all of these points only two weeks ago!!!

the lady who came to asses me even took pictures and some of my ideas away to suggest to other breeders and will be using herself:2thumb:

btw you forgot to answer what you breed

also did you know that even if you dont make a profit from breeding you still need to keep a record and provide them to the inland revenue

George


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I assume you are trying to suggest that lowly owners and rescuers don't know anything about backyard breeding. Unfortunately for you that argument falls flat as I have campaigned against poor breeding and will always 150% stand behind breeders who put the dogs first and breed properly. Having had the rescue results of breeders who put money first and don't health test properly, I have no time for the argument that I have to be a backyard breeder or puppy farmer to know one when I see one. 

When you've had a dog die because of its life as a backyard breeders' income generator, you learn a lot about bad breeding practices.

ETA: I wonder if you told the person inspecting you that you earn a living off dogs bred to low standards - how can you possibly pass the requirements when you don't health test all dogs before breeding them and breed too young.  Obviously this ABS leaves a lot to be desired but I'll wait for their official response to my questions.


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

KathyM said:


> I assume you are trying to suggest that lowly owners and rescuers don't know anything about backyard breeding. Unfortunately for you that argument falls flat as I have campaigned against poor breeding and will always 150% stand behind breeders who put the dogs first and breed properly. Having had the rescue results of breeders who put money first and don't health test properly, I have no time for the argument that I have to be a backyard breeder or puppy farmer to know one when I see one.
> 
> When you've had a dog die because of its life as a backyard breeders' income generator, you learn a lot about bad breeding practices.
> 
> ETA: I wonder if you told the person inspecting you that you earn a living off dogs bred to low standards - how can you possibly pass the requirements when you don't health test all dogs before breeding them and breed too young.  Obviously this ABS leaves a lot to be desired but I'll wait for their official response to my questions.


sorry im not trying to suggest anything about you! you see unlike you i ASK questions and dont assume anything 

the way you talk is like you know alot about breeding so i wondered and ASKED you what you breed

infact the age the kc asks your bitch to be before you breed from her is 1 but seen as you know so much about breeding you already knew this:whistling2:

also are you saying that i am a puppy farmer????

seriously do you honestly think i am a puppy farmer????

as you claim to know so much about puppy farming can you really say that i am a farmer????

kathy can you really?????

George 

below is a puppy farm for those of you who would like to call me one


















daisy waiting in her comfy spot to give birth............ in our puppy farm!!! 









puppies having there group pic taken - needless to say they didnt stay on this sofa and two of us were either side just incase while it was taken!










in the crate- classic puppy farmer! ( this is where they go while i clean the room up or take a shower so they dont get crushed, i do have bigger crates !)


----------



## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

missmoore said:


> perhaps you should ask your questions in a more polite way
> 
> im not sure anybody with my pups will agree with you as i keep in touch with them all and once a year invite everybody back here for a summer bbq
> 
> ...


You are making yourself look bad. 'health testing is a load of rubbish' are precisely the words BYB's use to justify their lack of doing them. Had you have said 'yes, I have made some msitakes, but I am getting my dogs health tested now and will be doing thinsg differently in the future' peoplemight have a bit more respect for you. 

As for puppy owners being happy. Well, they have a dog they no doubt love, but I doubt they'd be so happy if they find out their beloved puppy has HD and is crippled, and that you didn't health test, but that may have prevented it.

Other than which, I never fail to be amazed at what members of the public think constitutes a 'good breeder' and what drivel they fall for. I expect they believe yyou when you say hip scoring is a load of rubbish, after all, they're not likely to know any better, are they? On the other hand, it is your responsibility to know better and you should do. 

If you think health testing is a 'load of rubbish' why bother to health test _any _of your dogs? 

Your morals are, quite frankly, shocking. Of course, the KC accredited breeders scheme does not absolutely require health testing. This is one of the problems with it and why puppy farmers are able to join it.

Breeders like you are exactly the sort featured on the BBC PDE programme, who made the rest of us, who do things properly look bad to the general public. Not sure if you saw the programme, but everyone was disgusted with the woman breeding Cavs without testing for SM. You are as bad... The ONLY reason I can see not to health test is to save money and maximise profits, and because you simply don't care.


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I think anyone who churns out puppies without considering health or age of their breeding dogs is an irresponsible breeder. I think puppy farm could be used as a term, as evidently there is no thought going into the breeding with regards the future of the breed (eg breeding from healthy animals at healthy ages), just supply and demand.

I dont care how long my waiting list is, I breed when I need to and when is best for my animals, not when my waiting list wants me to.

So I can see where Kathy is coming from. Puppy farmer might not be the term I use, but I certainly wouldn't use the term "accredited breeder" either.

Just out of interest, do they only come indoors when you're breeding from them or being inspected?


----------



## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

KathyM said:


> I assume you are trying to suggest that lowly owners and rescuers don't know anything about backyard breeding. Unfortunately for you that argument falls flat as I have campaigned against poor breeding and will always 150% stand behind breeders who put the dogs first and breed properly. Having had the rescue results of breeders who put money first and don't health test properly, I have no time for the argument that I have to be a backyard breeder or puppy farmer to know one when I see one.
> 
> When you've had a dog die because of its life as a backyard breeders' income generator, you learn a lot about bad breeding practices.
> 
> ETA: I wonder if you told the person inspecting you that you earn a living off dogs bred to low standards - how can you possibly pass the requirements when you don't health test all dogs before breeding them and breed too young.  Obviously this ABS leaves a lot to be desired but I'll wait for their official response to my questions.


I know how this feels too Kathy 

I took on the mal pup i had to have pts at the age of 8 months old as a result of a BYB/puppy farmer 

she was displaysic in ALL of her joints.............the limited amount of care given via her being bought from a pet shop and then sold on to a moron who didnt have a clue about her breed did extensive damage to her internal organs 

It broke my heart having to go through all that and a few other peoples hearts on here too 


so i believe the health checks to be a very important part of breeding healthy puppies


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

missmoore said:


> sorry im not trying to suggest anything about you! you see unlike you i ASK questions and dont assume anything


I've asked questions and not got answers? Instead the attention has been deflected?



> the way you talk is like you know alot about breeding so i wondered and ASKED you what you breed


I would love to know more about good breeding, sadly most of my experience is with the bad. 



> infact the age the kc asks your bitch to be before you breed from her is 1 but seen as you know so much about breeding you already knew this:whistling2:


So you think it's acceptable to breed from puppies? Seeing as you claim to know your breed so well, you must be aware they're not finished puppyhood til at least 2, and seeing as you know so much about hipscoring you'll know that takes that long too? You are using KC inadequacies as an excuse to use poor breeding practices, can you please justify for me why you think it's ok to breed 1 year old untested dogs? AGAIN, I'll ask you, what is the point of health testing if you only do so once the bitch has had puppies? In one case two litters before the age of 3?



> also are you saying that i am a puppy farmer????


Someone who mass breeds for profit without due care for health and temperament. Yes, yes I am. Because you're not in possession of hundreds of dogs, then perhaps backyard breeder is a better term. Do you only qualify bad breeding as their living conditions, seriously? You can't possibly believe that good breeding means breeding from untested puppies before they're even mature and churning them out for cash.



> seriously do you honestly think i am a puppy farmer????


See above.



> as you claim to know so much about puppy farming can you really say that i am a farmer????


And again.



> kathy can you really?????


And again!


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> Just out of interest, do they only come indoors when you're breeding from them or being inspected?


lol no of course not! the back door is open all the way through the summer and they "knock" the back door if they want to come in or out! they are not allowed in the living room if they are covered in mud etc we have a gate on that door the rest of downstairs is tiled so there no problem there, 

i did make a misstake of not checking dorys hip score first but i got her from a freind in the breed and trusted her

you all assume my stock is bad im missing one health test for one bitch if i wasnt acredited that wouldnt even be asked of me by the kc, dory has been seen by loads of people in the breed and no one thinks she has bad movement hips etc they all think her movement is great infact, some of which are cc judges 

alot of the judges in st bernards wont hip score there dogs or do anything with them in regards to testing yet me with a missing score which lets be honest was my own stupid fault- they do have a reciept to show she was scored it was never read i assume??? i get classed as a puppy farmer

i execpt thats some peoples views but my dogs are well looked after and loved, yes i do make money from them but i feel that by charging enough to live by i can then look after them all the time and not have to worry while im out at work 

the load of rubbish you keep refuring too is about the fact there is no capping of the hip scores and that aslong as the dog is scored the abs are fine with this

yes i told the lady i dont work other than the dogs - yes i told her the hip scoring system sucks and without a cap it means very little- she agreed!!! 

the lady was lovely and only does a few hours each week inspecting for free i might add the rest of the time she dont work!!! shes home breeding her dogs! 

cheri


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Emmaj said:


> I know how this feels too Kathy
> 
> I took on the mal pup i had to have pts at the age of 8 months old as a result of a BYB/puppy farmer
> 
> ...


I am really sorry, I didn't mean to upset anyone who's been on the receiving end of backyard breeders and puppy farmers. My old dog Ruby came to me after being bred intensively for cash like far too many dogs. She was dumped in the pound to be put down after having mated with the next door's pointer. Because she hadn't had pedigree puppies that time, her and her 4 pups were taken to the pound to be destroyed. A month after she came to me she was diagnosed with terminal cancer which was preventable by her owner (a direct result of being left unspayed and used as a puppy machine). She lived 8 months longer than the 3 the vet expected and she lit up everyone's life who she met. I miss her every day and it boils my blood to see people saying it's ok to breed dogs for money without bothering to do "useless" health tests that might cut the profit down.


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Can I ask how much you charge for your pups, and how that compares to breeders who health check and breed less often?


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

sure i charge £950 

thats with the pup being flead wormed microchipped and insured for a year also they have a big pedigree from the kc 

they also leave with a £40 bag of holistic food , toys blanket name tag etc 

cheri 

also as my unhipscored bitch didnt take there not much need to keep going on about her missing health test as shes not got pups and will be scored in jan with destiny whos not one until then!

daisy is a good strong bitch and has had two litters in 11 months with a clear season between as she cylces every 4 months (ish) the vet agrees that she is fine to be bred from and that it will do her no harm needless to say if she dont recover this time as well and fast as last time then we wont breed her again and if she dont breed again she wont be rehomed- another thing puppy farmers do - rehome unbreedable bitches

i dont just put her with any dog either i spent 5 hours driving to the stud who suited her best im sure on the way i passed at least ten other dogs who she could have gone with but no i chose one far away and actually was one of the more expensive studs- again if it was all about money id have used a cheap one from up the road and saved all my money and time or maybe even put my eager 11month old dog 

just to make it clear is every breeder who doesnt health test a puppy farmer??? 

cheri


----------



## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

KathyM said:


> I am really sorry, I didn't mean to upset anyone who's been on the receiving end of backyard breeders and puppy farmers. My old dog Ruby came to me after being bred intensively for cash like far too many dogs. She was dumped in the pound to be put down after having mated with the next door's pointer. Because she hadn't had pedigree puppies that time, her and her 4 pups were taken to the pound to be destroyed. A month after she came to me she was diagnosed with terminal cancer which was preventable by her owner (a direct result of being left unspayed and used as a puppy machine). She lived 8 months longer than the 3 the vet expected and she lit up everyone's life who she met. I miss her every day and it boils my blood to see people saying it's ok to breed dogs for money without bothering to do "useless" health tests that might cut the profit down.


 


its same for me too 

makes my blood boil totally 

nuks was 4 months old when she came to me and the size of a 10wk old pup  her jaw was serverly undershot/overshot (never remember which way it works) all of her joints were serverly swollen............she was the most aggressive lil thing i have ever seen but it was fear aggression she was displaying 

i put actual blood sweat and tears into bringing that lil girl round from the brink of no return and managed it 

vets did say she would have a short lived life poss make it to 3 down to the malnourishment from her previous owner........basically starving her keeping her locked in a bathroom in a flight crate as he was scared of a lil pup 

she seemed to be doing so well and had perked up and fantastic not an ounce of aggression left in her...............then she just went downhill and slowly started shutting down 

it broke my heart having to make that horrible descision 

i had never been so devestated in my life until that point


----------



## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

missmoore said:


> sure i charge £950
> 
> 
> just to make it clear is every breeder who doesnt health test a puppy farmer???
> ...


 
No not at all 

just a few people have been through some terrible things as a result of what puppy farmers have thrown out 

its just something that is close to a few peoples hearts


----------



## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

missmoore said:


> sure i charge £950
> 
> thats with the pup being flead wormed microchipped and insured for a year also they have a big pedigree from the kc
> 
> ...


Anone who doesn't health test is irresponsible, IMO. What possible reason is there for NOT health testing? Hip scores are not rubbish just because there is no rule that says 'the results must be under the BMS in order for you to breed from your bitch'. You still get the the results, and YOU can use them to decide, alt hings considered whether you shoul dbreed fromy uor bitch. 

You keep bleating on that you haven't yet bred from a non hip score dbitch, but say that Daisy, who had alitter this year, has only been 'unnoffically' tested. What on earth does that mean? There is no such thing! So YES! you have bred from an unhealth tested bitch, and are now breeding a second litter from her, while she is still untested! If you think hip scoring is 'rubbish', why bother to do it at all? Surely the fact you are having your other dogs scored means you are aware it should be done? You can't have it both ways. 

You also bred from your bitch when she wasn't finished growing. The KC gives a 'blanket' rule of bitches being over ayear old. Most breeders think that is too young, but it is certainly too young for a giant breed. 

You state you think it is Ok to make money fromy our dogs because it means you can stay at home with them, well, this might be news for you. Owning dogs is a priveledge, not a right. If you cannot afford to stay at home, or work part time in order to spend enough time with them without exploiting them, don't have them. It's simple. No matter what a breeder does, they cannot absolutely guarantee none of their puppies will end up in rescue. The simple fact is, once they are sold they are no longer your property. The new owner can do whatever they wish with that puppy. The more puppies you breed, the more likely it is one or more will end up a burden on already over-full rescues. 

The way you describe keeping your puppies is BASCI welfare to me. It is what everyone shoul dbe doing, it is not exceptional. It is what most fo us take for granted. However, I do nto agree with seperating a bitch from her puppies. I supervise all of mine 100% of the time, and if I need to shower or pop to Tesco or whatever, I get a friend, my son or my husband to watch them.


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

i just think if you have experiance of a real puppy farmer then you would know thats far away from me...

just now i have here a puppy backs whos mum is in hospital ive had her for 3 weeks and needless to say i havent charged a penny - i think that shows that its not all about money 

also i show alot which costs money i bet more than half of my profit goes on showing 

my dogs all have proper human beds and dont have kennels they have stables built with heating systems running water and decent lighting etc

im not scared to admit i make money from my dogs but alot of it goes back into them aswell ig showing carpeting there rooms singles beds which the matresses need changing very often , toys and not just little toys from car boots but huge gym balls and things to explore like tunnels and tubes which get chewed or peed on so get binned

most people seem to hate the fact that money is made from dog breeding i see it as it allows me to put all my time into it and provide the dogs with the houseing and toys , walks etc they require- we visit the local forest as a group weekly 

i put on a bbq once a year for all st bernards ( i pay for it of course) 

diesel is a registerd PAT dog who spends time with old people who cant have there dogs in a home or maybe young children who are often sadly dying

i dont sit home mating bitches all day then leaving them to get on with it while i drink my champagne

i put loads of time into it this year daisy is due christmas day that means if she whelps that day i wont see the kids open there presents or eat dinner around the table with my family 

if people will insist on buying from puppy farmers beacuse they are cheaper then the puppy farmers will carry on .........

cheri


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

missmoore said:


> also as my unhipscored bitch didnt take there not much need to keep going on about her missing health test as shes not got pups and will be scored in jan with destiny whos not one until then!


But you attempted to breed her without health tests? You can't say it's acceptable just because she didn't fall pregnant, you are responsible for making sound breeding choices, and sadly so far I have read nothing to suggest that you take the health of your puppies or your breeding bitches seriously at all. I'm finding it really tragic to read 



> i dont just put her with any dog either i spent 5 hours driving to the stud who suited her best im sure on the way i passed at least ten other dogs who she could have gone with but no i chose one far away and actually was one of the more expensive studs


I am surprised that anyone with such a highly regarded stud would want their dog's name on your puppies' papers to be honest. 



> just to make it clear is every breeder who doesnt health test a puppy farmer???
> 
> cheri


You asked, I'll answer. If they're breeding on a large scale, yes. If they're breeding on a small scale but still not living up to their responsibility to breed selectively and well, then they are to me an irresponsible breeder, sometimes called a backyard breeder. There is absolutely no excuse for breeding from untested dogs in this day and age.

You haven't answered my questions in my previous post - would you like me to quote them for you so you can answer?


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

missmoore said:


> =
> if people will insist on buying from puppy farmers beacuse they are cheaper then the puppy farmers will carry on .........
> 
> cheri


Likewise if morons keep paying £950 for badly bred puppies from underaged bitches, then those backyard breeders will continue. 

My puppy farmed dog came from a rescue, I never once lined their greedy pockets, just like I would urge people not to line those of backyard breeders.


----------



## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

missmoore said:


> if people will insist on buying from puppy farmers beacuse they are cheaper then the puppy farmers will carry on .........
> 
> cheri


The pup i ended up with i refused to let go back to her owner.............i didnt pay a penny to buy her though paid through the nose for her medical bills (with the help of the kind people from the forum)

the guy i took her from paid alot of money for her from a pet shop


----------



## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

missmoore said:


> i just think if you have experiance of a real puppy farmer then you would know thats far away from me...
> 
> just now i have here a puppy backs whos mum is in hospital ive had her for 3 weeks and needless to say i havent charged a penny - i think that shows that its not all about money
> 
> ...


Everything you mention is what most people, including breeders, do and provide out of their own pockets and the goodness of their hearts, without expecting their dogs to 'earn' it and provide a living for them as well. 

My dogs are my hobby, just like they would be if they were pets only (at least one of them is) and just like my other hobbies, I fund it out of my own pocket. So that means showing etc, comes out of my own money. 

I also find it odd that you think every bitch you own is of a good enough standard to be bred from....

Perhaps you would be so kind as to answer my question as to what 'unoffical' hip scoring is? 



KathyM said:


> But you attempted to breed her without health tests? You can't say it's acceptable just because she didn't fall pregnant, you are responsible for making sound breeding choices, and sadly so far I have read nothing to suggest that you take the health of your puppies or your breeding bitches seriously at all. I'm finding it really tragic to read
> 
> 
> ?


She has and IS breeding from un health tested bitches, Daisy is NOT hip scored. Apparently she was 'unnoficially' scored, but there is no such thing!


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

time and time again i seem to be repeating myself

dory the one who isnt hip scored and missed i got at 16 months old and i had been given the recipt from the vets that hip scored her but i hold my hands up and admit i didnt check with the bva/kc as i had no reason to doubt a friend!

but now she has missed before i mate her again she will be scored

daisy and dora have both been scored

diesel and destiny are too young but will be hip and elbow scored as soon as they are old enough

i think you are crazy to say that people who breed on a "large" scale are all farmers have you ever heard of a "breeding kennel" with only one bitch???

im sorry you have had a bad experiance but i dont think thats my fault


also in my contract it states i will take back any of my own breeding at any time if needed

also just because i am breeding on a larger scale than some doesnt mean i wont take back or my pups will end up in centers - im telling you 100% id be driving to collect the dog from the center as soon as possible or send someone else 

whos to say a owner with one pet bitch they breed will take back any puppies at all 

i have the time and space to take them back , i will say i dont expect i would keep them all but i would rehome them properly 

cheri


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

midori said:


> She has and IS breeding from un health tested bitches, Daisy is NOT hip scored. Apparently she was 'unnoficially' scored, but there is no such thing!


 
please read properly!!!!!

Daisy was unnoficially heart tested before being hip scored she is hip scored:bash: the heart test has to be done before she is put under


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Hi Cheri

What you define as acceptable and what I define as acceptable are poles apart sadly, and that's not going to change, which is a shame. You can call a lump of coal 18ct gold if it makes you happy, but not everyone will agree with you. There is to me no difference between a "breeding kennel" that breeds to a poor standard and any other bad breeder, whether that's a puppy farmer or a backyard breeder only depends on the scale. 

I do remember seeing recently an horrific large scale St Bernard rescue from a "reputable" breeder, so frankly saying you're better than a puppy farmer just by a stamp on your website doesn't wash for me. One rule for one? Looking forward to a response to my questions, although something tells me I'll be waiting a while as you have no response.

Take care

Kathy


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

missmoore said:


> diesel and destiny are too young but will be hip and elbow scored as soon as they are old enough


Will that be before or after you've bred a couple of litters out of them, like the others?


----------



## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

missmoore said:


> diesel again is not hip scored and he isnt quite a year either but is booked in both daisy and dora are hip scored??? dora is also heart tested with papers daisy was heart tested before going under to be hip scored but not "offically" so no papers there until i get it done again
> 
> cheri


I might have read the above post wrongly. Did you mean she is unoffically heart tested? The person who does x rays for hip scoring though, is not the heart specialist who will heart test, so I don't see hwo that can be the case if that is what you meant? 

If Daisy is hip scored, you need to contact the KC, as she is listed as untested on their site...



missmoore said:


> also in my contract it states i will take back any of my own breeding at any time if needed
> 
> also just because i am breeding on a larger scale than some doesnt mean i wont take back or my pups will end up in centers - im telling you 100% id be driving to collect the dog from the center as soon as possible or send someone else
> 
> ...


Many rescues would refuse to give you back a puppy you bred that had been handed in even if you did go to collect it, and as you will know, your contract isn't really worth the paper it is printed on... 

Being a good breeder is a combination of a lot of things. Doing some things right doesn't make someone a good breeder, they need to tick all the boxes. Breeding dogs is risky for the bitch and should only be done for the best reasons. Needing the money isn't a good enough reason to risk a bitch, IMO.


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

midori said:


> If Daisy is hip scored, you need to contact the KC, as she is listed as untested on their site...
> 
> yes daisy is i have called them but will call back tomorrwo she has been done
> 
> a vet sees the dog before it goes to the r xray room to be put under so she was heart tested as normal but i dont have her kc paperwork stamped unlike doras


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

missmoore said:


> perhaps you should ask your questions in a more polite way
> 
> im not sure anybody with my pups will agree with you as i keep in touch with them all and once a year invite everybody back here for a summer bbq
> 
> ...


 Don't you know? Kathy and her little sidekick Lisa, are entitled to demand that you answer whatever impertinant and personal questions she wants to fire at you in her own imperious manner.
You are not the only one to have had the KLC treatment. She's wound up diozens and dozens of people on here along with Lisa. I'm surprised Colin hasn't jumped in at some point too. There is a little clique of 'holier than thou' on here, mainly consisting of people who have never had more than one dog at a time, and never had a problem dog and think that the sun rises and sets out of each other's bottoms. 
I placed them all on ignore so I don't have to see their rabid rantings. For the sake of your blood pressure, I recommend you do the same as you'll get no peace as they will follow you about, scrutinising everything you ever post with a view to being able to tear you to shreds, make accusations, say things which aren't true etc, in order to justify to themselves that they are much better than any other animal keeper out there. Personally, I figure some kind of mental instability based on an inferiority complex but that's just supposition as I don't know their CPN.


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

KathyM said:


> Hi Cheri
> 
> What you define as acceptable and what I define as acceptable are poles apart sadly, and that's not going to change, which is a shame. You can call a lump of coal 18ct gold if it makes you happy, but not everyone will agree with you. There is to me no difference between a "breeding kennel" that breeds to a poor standard and any other bad breeder, whether that's a puppy farmer or a backyard breeder only depends on the scale.
> 
> ...


sorry what is the question


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I have reported Fenwoman's post, but she needs to get her facts straight (not that the woman's ever bothered in the past) - I have two dogs and sadly have had plenty of dogs with behavioural problems. Fenwoman will happily defend you when it suits (as her breeding practices aren't anywhere near as ethical as Cheri's!), but God forbid you ever cross her, she stalks and even writes poetry.

ETA: Note how others have asked the same questions as me, but Fenwoman only attacks the person she claims to have on ignore (but in fact doesn't, and writes poetry about them which she shares with others off the board in a stalking manner). I haven't had the pleasure of hearing the poems written about me yet.


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

The questions were...

You posted that the KC don't care if you breed 1 year old dogs, do you think it is acceptable to breed from underage/immature dogs just because the KC haven't set an acceptable lower limit?

And why are dogs bred from before they are health tested - is there a reason?

Thanks


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> Don't you know? Kathy and her little sidekick Lisa, are entitled to demand that you answer whatever impertinant and personal questions she wants to fire at you in her own imperious manner.
> You are not the only one to have had the KLC treatment. She's wound up diozens and dozens of people on here along with Lisa. I'm surprised Colin hasn't jumped in at some point too. There is a little clique of 'holier than thou' on here, mainly consisting of people who have never had more than one dog at a time, and never had a problem dog and think that the sun rises and sets out of each other's bottoms.
> I placed them all on ignore so I don't have to see their rabid rantings. For the sake of your blood pressure, I recommend you do the same as you'll get no peace as they will follow you about, scrutinising everything you ever post with a view to being able to tear you to shreds, make accusations, say things which aren't true etc, in order to justify to themselves that they are much better than any other animal keeper out there. Personally, I figure some kind of mental instability based on an inferiority complex but that's just supposition as I don't know their CPN.


*passes Fenwoman her broomstick to fly off on*

Should have known you'd pipe up in this thread. No doubt you two know each other.

ETA: if you havent met Fenwoman, MissMoore, I'd warn you to put her on ignore. She's not all there, and I feel for her animals. You'll see many many many people have had run ins with her, and she always starts the same old thing *ooh if you dont like what I do you're all big meanies!* (but is more than happy to judge people herself).


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

That's insulting to George and Cheri, that's the last thing they need going around!


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> Don't you know? Kathy and her little sidekick Lisa, are entitled to demand that you answer whatever impertinant and personal questions she wants to fire at you in her own imperious manner.
> You are not the only one to have had the KLC treatment. She's wound up diozens and dozens of people on here along with Lisa. I'm surprised Colin hasn't jumped in at some point too. There is a little clique of 'holier than thou' on here, mainly consisting of people who have never had more than one dog at a time, and never had a problem dog and think that the sun rises and sets out of each other's bottoms.
> I placed them all on ignore so I don't have to see their rabid rantings. For the sake of your blood pressure, I recommend you do the same as you'll get no peace as they will follow you about, scrutinising everything you ever post with a view to being able to tear you to shreds, make accusations, say things which aren't true etc, in order to justify to themselves that they are much better than any other animal keeper out there. Personally, I figure some kind of mental instability based on an inferiority complex but that's just supposition as I don't know their CPN.


:lol2:

i sort of guessed they are friends

i honestly dont mind questions but lisa seems to breed rats (its not a dog ) and cant actually comment on having 5 st bernards she even stated her rat gave birth but wasnt there watching each one i suppose??? dont get me wrong im glad they are well 

and kathy seems to dance around the question of what she breeds

but hey they both seem to be experts on st bernards even though they proberly have only seen one on the telly and can only comment after seeing the ones that have recently been rescued

i bet if some breeders were kinder and nicer then maybe the breeders who are learning would ask more questions instead they come say they know everything ask questions about you but dont even relpy with a breed and spend time on the kc website clogging it up looking at what ive got 

george


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

How would I know they gave birth at 2-3am if I wasn't there with them?

Seriously, I know you're after someone to stand next to you on this thread, but you've picked the wrong one in Fenny. She's a nasty old bitch, and admits it herself.


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

missmoore said:


> :lol2:
> 
> i sort of guessed they are friends
> 
> ...


 
George - where have I been judgemental about St Bernards or their breeding care? In fact, I thought I was being incredibly polite considering, and was attempting to keep out of the bickering until you've just started on me.

Gawd help me, can people not have an opinion without being accused of things they've not done?:bash:


----------



## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

missmoore said:


> midori said:
> 
> 
> > If Daisy is hip scored, you need to contact the KC, as she is listed as untested on their site...
> ...


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I seem to be missing something here, I've said already I don't breed dogs. If you'd rather get in sweet with the other puppy farmer here, then that's your choice. Others asked the same questions and made the same points yet you seem focused on me and for some reason Lisa's rats. Weirdo. :lol2:


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> How would I know they gave birth at 2-3am if I wasn't there with them?
> 
> Seriously, I know you're after someone to stand next to you on this thread, but you've picked the wrong one in Fenny. She's a nasty old bitch, and admits it herself.


 i dont feel i need anybody to stand next to me i have my opinion and thats that

what do you mean how would you know?????

as stated before i stay up with my bitch upto 10 days before her due date to make sure she is not alone whilst giving birth

so please stop shouting that i dont care for my animals whilst you are tucked up in your nice warm bed at 2am and my eyes are glued to my pregnate bitch

now i must reply to your sister as she thinks im avoiding her

George


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Please don't, you're creeping me out now. LOL @ the PMs by the way. Nice.


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

missmoore said:


> i dont feel i need anybody to stand next to me i have my opinion and thats that
> 
> what do you mean how would you know?????
> 
> ...


Perhaps your wife could come back on this ID, as she seems much easier to talk to.

I said "How would I know when she gave birth IF I wasn't watching?". As in - I was up at 2am with her waiting til she'd finished, I wasn't "tucked up in bed" - far from it, I had to wait for her to finish to see she was safe. I'm sorry if you didnt understand that :whistling2:

I havent said you dont care for your animals - have I? You might find that I've just asked simple questions here and there to genuinely ask how you do do things, to help OTHERS perhaps understand where YOU are coming from.

Please, dont comment again until you've read the posts, seriously, I wasn't having a go - I was asking questions. Ignore Fenny, she's well known for her wooden spoon antics, and from what I hear is fast on her way to a ban - so we can all hope! Did you not notice all was polite til she turned up and spouted off?


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

midori said:


> missmoore said:
> 
> 
> > I think you mean he just listened to her heart, which is what a vet has to do before they do pretty much anything it a dog, including vaccination.
> ...


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> Perhaps your wife could come back on this ID, as she seems much easier to talk to.
> 
> I said "How would I know when she gave birth IF I wasn't watching?". As in - I was up at 2am with her waiting til she'd finished, I wasn't "tucked up in bed" - far from it, I had to wait for her to finish to see she was safe. I'm sorry if you didnt understand that :whistling2:
> 
> ...


sorry i misunderstood you

my god if she had them all in an hour that must have been stressfull for her

to be honest i dont feel being called a puppy farmer or a backyard breeder
is polite

i notice nobody comments on you having brought 15 rats into the world that could be rehomed yet i had ten pups kept two??? so only 8 are out there??? im not digging at you- you cant help how many she had but still you get my point....

george


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Lisa not once called you any of those things. I did. I think you owe her an apology personally, she is not me and she is not responsible for what I say.


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

The thing is, a rat lives for an average of 2 years. A St Bernard is what, 6-10?

I've not called you a puppy farmer or a BYB (that I recall) I have said that I understand why other people would based on the info given, and that's why I asked the other questions.

Yes, Kathy and I are sisters, but we often (too often) disagree on things too, we're not attached at the hip and just because we happen to post on the same thread does not mean we're ganging up on anyone. I'm in my house, she's in hers, we're not linked psychicly or on the phone to each other goading each other on. We just happen to enjoy similar topics.

I will in future steer clear of any thread she posts on just to make this clear for Fenwoman and anyone else who thinks I'm not entitled to post on the same thread.

But if you read through Fenwoman's posts, you will see she is by far the biggest bully on this forum, this is not the first time she's picked on me specifically, but she has also told other people their disabled children should be killed, so this is the type of woman you're listening to when you believe her lies.


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

KathyM said:


> The questions were...
> 
> You posted that the KC don't care if you breed 1 year old dogs, do you think it is acceptable to breed from underage/immature dogs just because the KC haven't set an acceptable lower limit?
> 
> ...


daisy came into season for the 2nd time at 13 months i could have bred her then but didnt i waited until she had grown more and had her 3 rd season , needless to say dogs do mature at different ages her sister dora was in season the same time and i never concidered mating her as i could see she wasnt ready at that age 

ive said before i didnt know she needed to be hip scored before not even any of the "old guard" or "top breeders" mentioned it to me - i suppose they couldnt when they dont do it themselves and the kc let me register them and sell them before it was flagged up- i really didnt know the kc accepted me as arredited and i still didnt get asked to hip score her

dora was hip scored before she was mated , as said dory was supposed to be hip scored before she came here( my friend at the time of dorys mating had a litter and her husband in hospital so i didnt pressure her as i trusted her

also i did used to agree with you on the bitch should be with her pups all the time until ive been there and seen a clumsy st bernard giving birth and heard of sooooo many pups dying in the first week simply due to being squashed now id never leave them with there mum unless im there.

any more questions let me know lets not make this personal ive got nothing to hide and welcome any advise - you learn something new every day!

cheri


----------



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

missmoore said:


> daisy came into season for the 2nd time at 13 months i could have bred her then but didnt i waited until she had grown more and had her 3 rd season , needless to say dogs do mature at different ages her sister dora was in season the same time and i never concidered mating her as i could see she wasnt ready at that age
> 
> ive said before i didnt know she needed to be hip scored before not even any of the "old guard" or "top breeders" mentioned it to me - i suppose they couldnt when they dont do it themselves and the kc let me register them and sell them before it was flagged up- i really didnt know the kc accepted me as arredited and i still didnt get asked to hip score her
> 
> ...


 
Thanks Cheri, you seem much easier to talk to than your husband/partner. I do appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. I didn't comment on her being apart from her pups, think you might have me mixed up with another person on the thread on that point. Good luck with your plans in the future. A word of advice would be to be very careful who you are seen to associate with, even on little boards like this as it doesn't take much to get your name sullied by someone with a really bad reputation. I am not going to name names, it doesn't need saying. Good luck in the future.


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> The thing is, a rat lives for an average of 2 years. A St Bernard is what, 6-10?
> 
> I've not called you a puppy farmer or a BYB (that I recall) I have said that I understand why other people would based on the info given, and that's why I asked the other questions.
> 
> ...


ok if you havent called me any names id like to say im sorry!!

however i dont understand what the lifespan of a rat has got to do with it are you saying the rat will only be in a rescue for two years????

btw we are lucky our lines live alot longer more like 10-14 years but yes most heavy chested fat st bernards live alot shorter lives

george


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

What I meant about their lifespan is that when I breed a litter, should they all be returned for some unknown reason - I could theoretically keep all 15 of them, as it'd only be a couple more cages for 2 years. Whereas if I had 15 puppies, there's no way on earth I'd be able to house that many, and even less chance if I had more than one litter every couple of years...if you get me. Eg if you add up how many pups you've had over the last 10 years (rough lifespan), then theoretically would you have space should (highly unlikely) they all be returned. Erm. I'm not saying you should have, just explaining why it's easier for me to sit here and say I'll take them back - because they're rats, live in cages, and have a short lifespan.:lol2:

My rats wouldn't (fingers crossed) ever end up in rescue, as all my owners are checked and are told that I will take them back no questions asked at any point in their lifetime - this is part of the rehoming contract. But on a plus note even if the worst happened and they did, I happen to be quite friendly with local rescues, so I'm sure they'd tell me, and I'd be straight over to collect them!

Apologies for the guessing of their lifespan, I have a dane and I figured the lifespan would be roughly the same. Sadly danes average lifespan is 6-8, so even compared to that 6-10 seemed generous. Apologies if I offended there.


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

KathyM said:


> Thanks Cheri, you seem much easier to talk to than your husband/partner. I do appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. I didn't comment on her being apart from her pups, think you might have me mixed up with another person on the thread on that point. Good luck with your plans in the future. A word of advice would be to be very careful who you are seen to associate with, even on little boards like this as it doesn't take much to get your name sullied by someone with a really bad reputation. I am not going to name names, it doesn't need saying. Good luck in the future.


sorry i was just trying to reply to everything whilst playing with my daughter got confused between people

george is all good he dont like people saying bad things to me -whos bloke would???

im not apposed to any questions ive no idea why daisys results are not on the kc she should be 

im not a puppy farmer and i do think you calling me one is not fair i am sure my puppies are looked after much better than most, which is a shame as there are plenty not looked after

everyone is always welcome to there own opinion but mine is that i am not a farmer and that i will always breed a bitch to a dog who i want regardless of where it is or how much it costs - it is not about the money i make im very much prepared to spend it aswell, if fact i often spend far more than needed on toys and beds etc they all have heaters insdie there stables along with fire alrams and cctv - they get home made treats and no one can even say that they dont feel loved each dog is loved in there own way - dora dont like cuddles she never has she gets brushed- daisy likes to sit on my lap - dory loves everything and the puppies - well there puppies enough said

i dont have "kennels" as such they are far too small and i like them to be together- it would be easier to have them penned up seperate but i dont like to see a row of kennels and single dogs..........

cheri


----------



## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> rats, live in cages, and have a short lifespan.:lol2:
> 
> My rats wouldn't (fingers crossed) ever end up in rescue, as all my owners are checked and are told that I will take them back no questions asked at any point in their lifetime - this is part of the rehoming contract.
> 
> ...


i also have the same contract ( someone on here said it was worth nothing btw)and your right i couldnt keep them all if they come back but ive got enough space for at least another ten!!! and if i did get them back i wouldnt keep them all some would get rehomed

i am lucky enough ( not boasting) to live a lovely big house with a nice 3 acre garden so i do plan on getting a couple more stables and one is always to be left spare for the just incases!!!! kinda like a spare rat cage lol!!!

cheri


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Big dogs and lots of land? When can me and Blu move in? :lol2::mf_dribble:


----------



## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

can i come too please 


my son keep asking me if we can move to the country he loves where my sis lives and wants to move somewhere like her :lol2:


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I keep telling people I live in Bronte country, what they dont know is it's a crappy semi 2 minutes out of town on an estate :lol2:


----------



## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> I keep telling people I live in Bronte country, what they dont know is it's a crappy semi 2 minutes out of town on an estate :lol2:


oooooooo are you close to howarth then lisa ? 

i used to spend my weekends in howarth when i was at school my best mate lived just outside the main street of howarth

i loved it she hated it lol


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Don't you know? Kathy and her little sidekick Lisa, are entitled to demand that you answer whatever impertinant and personal questions she wants to fire at you in her own imperious manner.
> You are not the only one to have had the KLC treatment. She's wound up diozens and dozens of people on here along with Lisa. I'm surprised Colin hasn't jumped in at some point too. There is a little clique of 'holier than thou' on here, mainly consisting of people who have never had more than one dog at a time, and never had a problem dog and think that the sun rises and sets out of each other's bottoms.
> I placed them all on ignore so I don't have to see their rabid rantings. For the sake of your blood pressure, I recommend you do the same as you'll get no peace as they will follow you about, scrutinising everything you ever post with a view to being able to tear you to shreds, make accusations, say things which aren't true etc, in order to justify to themselves that they are much better than any other animal keeper out there. Personally, I figure some kind of mental instability based on an inferiority complex but that's just supposition as I don't know their CPN.


God she talks some shite doesn't she?

As the holder of the title of RFUK's Biggest Hypocrite, I think Fenwoman's posts should be taken as spite, bitterness & bull! This is the woman who has/would put white boxer puppies to sleep in case they turn out to be deaf, she also calls people cruel for using dog crates but to her it is ok to use an electric shock collar on a dog to stop it chasing chickens, & as for other people commenting on things they know nothing about, she should take a leave out of her own book & not post her vile comments on subjects she has no knowledge of!


----------



## SaZzY (Mar 4, 2009)

It that the sounds of padlocks clinking in the distance I hear :lol2:


----------



## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> God she talks some shite doesn't she?
> 
> As the holder of the title of RFUK's Biggest Hypocrite, I think Fenwoman's posts should be taken as spite, bitterness & bull! This is the woman who has/would put white boxer puppies to sleep in case they turn out to be deaf, she also calls people cruel for using dog crates but to her it is ok to use an electric shock collar on a dog to stop it chasing chickens, & as for other people commenting on things they know nothing about, she should take a leave out of her own book & not post her vile comments on subjects she has no knowledge of!


 
col 

do we really have to go down this street again ??

look right yeah fenny has her haters but i am not one of them 

i like both you and fenny col 

its horrible seeing you both at each other 

yes she says things she shouldnt but so do you too 

its a catch 22 thing with the pair of you 

please please dont start all the white boxer thing up again its getting soooooooooooooooooo boring now


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

SaZzY said:


> It that the sounds of padlocks clinking in the distance I hear :lol2:


What, are they letting Fenwoman out of her cage again? :lol2:


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Emmaj said:


> col
> 
> do we really have to go down this street again ??
> 
> ...


Emma, it was her who started this one! She couldn't help but mention my name in her post! Ok, maybe I shouldn't have taken the bait, but she asks for it, you have to admit!


----------



## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> God she talks some shite doesn't she?
> 
> As the holder of the title of RFUK's Biggest Hypocrite, I think Fenwoman's posts should be taken as spite, bitterness & bull! This is the woman who has/would put white boxer puppies to sleep in case they turn out to be deaf, she also calls people cruel for using dog crates but to her it is ok to use an electric shock collar on a dog to stop it chasing chickens, & as for other people commenting on things they know nothing about, she should take a leave out of her own book & not post her vile comments on subjects she has no knowledge of!


:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


----------



## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

SaZzY said:


> It that the sounds of padlocks clinking in the distance I hear :lol2:





Zoo-Man said:


> Emma, it was her who started this one! She couldn't help but mention my name in her post! Ok, maybe I shouldn't have taken the bait, but she asks for it, you have to admit!


 
i know hun i did cringe somewhat when i read it 

but please be the bigger person and bow out with dignity 

all this bickering just makes people look bad and you dont want that do you ?

i think your both fantastic people and as i have said before wish you would both bloomin well ignore each other :lol2:


----------



## SaZzY (Mar 4, 2009)

Why do people get invloved and say fenwoman did this, fenwoman didnt do this, fenwoman is lovely???? She is perfectly capable of speaking for herself!


----------

