# Do you think scrutiny should be allowed on the forum?



## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

As I'm sure most of you are aware,there are certain members on here lately(mentioning no names) who are,quite rightly so in my opinion,recieving a lot of flak over their posts,adverts and pictures.Those who are exposing themselves as liars with each and every post,claiming years of experience when other members know for a fact that they were new to the hobby last year,offering to accept rescues,claiming to have hot experence etc etc.
Now,each and everytime anyone questions thier capabilities,the condition of animals for sale in their care etc any and all posts are removed because of the forum rules about not posting in classified ads unless interested in purchasing.
So,my question is this,do you think it's appropriate to ask in depth,demanding questions of people like this,so EVERYONE becomes aware or should they be allowed to continue in such a fashion without having to explain or answer?
No names please or the mods will have a field day on me!


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## gecko-kus (Aug 15, 2007)

there will and always are people like that who just because they own a beardie/leo or corn snake think they know everything about every reptile... it's a certainty in this hobby!!! 
there's not alot you can do about it apart from not buying from these people if you know the condition of their animals is bad and listening to everyones opinion about questions you might have. after all everyone has had different experiences and information given to them about reptiles and it's what works for them and not always the majority. 

just my thoughts anyway.....


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

and good thoughts they are,thanks for contributing as this is something thats really concerning me.The way I see it is no experienced keeper would buy from this kind of keeper,so it is left to those new to the hobby,and thats really scary.


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## gecko-kus (Aug 15, 2007)

i agree but we all have to learn from our mistakes... and people have to remember if you don't like what the animal looks like you don't have to buy it just because you said you would.... that's why i think it's best to meet any person selling an animal before you commit to a deposit etc....


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## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

i think its a real tough one...i am a bit of a sucker, and when i see an animal in less than ideal condition and/or living conditions i just pray that someone with experience and knowledge takes them on. it is difficult as i know as a rule this will encourage the owner/s to possibly buy in more and keep them the same as they will think "ah well, be ok i`ll just sell it when i`ve had enough" i did vote for everyone should have the right to see how they are kept etc...but all that worries me about this is the fact that no one will ever take them on and they will end up staying where they are and be longer suffering. its such a tough question really, with no easy answers...but it does really worry me as keepers like that are the ones who give RSPCA etc all the ammo they need to eventualy try and put a stop to herp keeping (and animal keeping in general) full stop!:censor:


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## philgc1968 (Jun 20, 2007)

the thing that concerns me is the amount of inexperienced keepers that can get hold of what are basicaly dangerous animals especially in the wrong hands, i think the key is to know the level of ur experience and keep animals at that level so u know how to care and look after them properly before taking the next step and getting animals that need a bit more care and attention and gain experience slowly and safely for the keeper and the animals concerned


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

Ian.g said:


> i think its a real tough one...i am a bit of a sucker, and when i see an animal in less than ideal condition and/or living conditions i just pray that someone with experience and knowledge takes them on. it is difficult as i know as a rule this will encourage the owner/s to possibly buy in more and keep them the same as they will think "ah well, be ok i`ll just sell it when i`ve had enough" i did vote for everyone should have the right to see how they are kept etc...but all that worries me about this is the fact that no one will ever take them on and they will end up staying where they are and be longer suffering. its such a tough question really, with no easy answers...but it does really worry me as keepers like that are the ones who give RSPCA etc all the ammo they need to eventualy try and put a stop to herp keeping (and animal keeping in general) full stop!:censor:


Swings and roundabouts Ian mate,maybe it's better that only those animals suffer,however sad it may be,rather than those,and the next ones,and the next ones,and the next.......


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## gecko-kus (Aug 15, 2007)

the thing is if people believe they are keeping them the correct way then they are not likely to change just because someone says thats wrong... especailly if they have been keeping them like this for years as british people are pretty stuborn... it's so important for people to realise that reptiles arnt' like cats and dogs and do need specialist care and equipment before they go ahead and purchase one. the main responsibility lies with the people that supply reptiles whether they are a shop or a private breeder, they need to ensure that the person knows what they are doing before they take something on. it's also important to teach children about different animals young, so that in the future they will know to seek out more advise before they go ahead and get something and not just buy an animal on the spur of the moment


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## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

barrym said:


> Swings and roundabouts Ian mate,maybe it's better that only those animals suffer,however sad it may be,rather than those,and the next ones,and the next ones,and the next.......



tis very true mate....i know the member/s you mean and tbh i think they need a SERIOUS wake up call! :whip:


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

Ian.g said:


> tis very true mate....i know the member/s you mean and tbh i think they need a SERIOUS wake up call! :whip:


Well,I hope he/they get one without a horrific ending involving a large retic,lots of stitches and lots of ammo for the press and the anti's!


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## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

barrym said:


> Well,I hope he/they get one without a horrific ending involving a large retic,lots of stitches and lots of ammo for the press and the anti's!


too true mate...although that wake up call would be ideal for him/them..as said it will only look bad on the hobby! :bash:


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

I think people should be left alone unless its really obvious because it can lead to trouble. We all keep our snakes differently yet they are all happy and healthy so to speak, too much in reptile keeping is opinion rather than fact. If someone was to disagree with say a racking system for breeders they would be allowed to kick off, if someone suspected someone of lying they could kick off - It would turn this into a not so nice place to visit!!

Genuine time wasters, liars and people who cant look after pets should be named and shamed though. But only when it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt, a quick search of the classified chat section will show you what I mean.


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## lukendaniel (Jan 10, 2007)

i havnt read all the thread. only just got up. i think i do agree to a certain extent, we all want to know how might or want to rip us off. or who just plainly dont have a 'clue'.

but what happens when some of the more recognised people make a mistake. maybe give bad advice or sell somthing dodgy. will we all jump on them in the same way. if it is going to be done needs 2 be fair.

hope this make sense as i havnt read the whole thread

daniel


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

Funny how those in agreement and those who don't have posted why,but those who think I'm just trying to cause trouble have not.Possibly the people in question here?


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

You made the anon poll, if you wanted a discussion you should of started one :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> You made the anon poll, if you wanted a discussion you should of started one :Na_Na_Na_Na:


well :Na_Na_Na_Na: to you too!:lol2:


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

YEAH!

People who have had been ripped off or been sold reptiles etc that are in mad shape should be posted on the forum . . . save anyone else handing over money.


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

People like the kid you are describing are known to be liars and will sooner or later end up annoying the wrong person or buying the wrong animal and it going horribly wrong.

The thing that also annoys the crap out of me is people who buy things not knowing how to look after them, post all kinds of pics as soon as they get them saying how cool they are, then thread pop up asking extremely basic beginner questions that even reading a single caersheet could solve, then when they start to get advanced animals and things go wrong its never their fault, or even when 'basic' reps start to get ill and die its not their fault either.

When its a known fact that people cant afford basic items but yet post up a picture of their 'new snake' then I don't think its wrong for someone to say something about it, especially expecting the barrage of threads asking basic questions.

:no1:


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I think there s a fine line between constructive posts and plain vindictiveness.

The problem is that so many people here have grudges on a personal level that have nothing to do with the animals' welfare or the keepers ability.

I have been very disheartened of late about the amount of so called experienced keepers who actually know squat about the animals they are keeping and are potentially creating a danger to themselves and those around them, not to mention to the animal in question by thier total lack of ability to admit they have no clue!

I also find it annoying that newbies to the hobby seem to want to come here, show pictures of their charges and then expect people to not comment openly about the things they could IMPROVE upon and then they become aggressive towards people because they are pointing out faults int he care regimes shown.

My BIGGEST annoyance right now is numpties who claim to have researched the very basic needs of animals yet blatantly haven't and obviously don't give 2 hoots that the animal they are "caring for" (very loose term that!) could get sick and die grrrrrr makes me sooo angry


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

I think it's pretty obvious who this thread was aimed at,but obviously I can't name names.This type of keeper is genuinely scary to me,not only because of the advice they are seen to give out but also the state of the animals in their care.I know for a fact that ads on other sites have used other peoples pictures to sel their own reptiles,claims of knowing some very well respected herpetologists have been proven untrue as has levels of experience.I just think its terrible that once things like this come to light we are supposed to say nothing.All my personal opinion of course.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

WEll, I openly share the same opinion as you chuck - and I also would love to be able to name and shame these guys/girls!


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## This is my Clone (Jul 8, 2007)

If I post a picture of my set up, I fully expect the community to scrutinise it. Why else would I post it if I didn't want opinions? :lol:
As long as it is constructive I'm all for it!

A while ago I posted some constructive criticism of a guy's Royal set up, and others jumped on the thread calling the guy all the names under the sun. He ran a mile and no longer posts. I still worry about that Royal.

Bottom line, keep it constructive people : victory:


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

I voted yes. but i do have exceptions. i would not like to see people rubbished over personal opinon. people forget just how powerful a tool the internet is. i for one, would like to see people exposed if they are not genuine. an example would be that i curently hold no DWA licence... yet from time to time i have adders handed in. these usually stay for a few days or up to a week depending what the weather is like... treated for any wounds.... ticks removed etc. then released at a suitable site. personally i think its a good thing to do. But it wouldn't take much for a forum member/s to twist this and make a mountain out of a molehill and completely ruin me. I just think we need to be careful and not jump the gun. We are all supposed to be in this together.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

barrym said:


> I think it's pretty obvious who this thread was aimed at,but obviously I can't name names.This type of keeper is genuinely scary to me,not only because of the advice they are seen to give out but also the state of the animals in their care.I know for a fact that ads on other sites have used other peoples pictures to sel their own reptiles,claims of knowing some very well respected herpetologists have been proven untrue as has levels of experience.I just think its terrible that once things like this come to light we are supposed to say nothing.All my personal opinion of course.


If you know people are using other peoples pictures etc on ads use the report button so we can have a look at it. 

Its a tricky one as we mods can never win on this one. If people start replying on the classifieds about things and we leave it people complain and if we remove it people also complain. Its very frustrating for us!: victory:


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

I put shut up Barry because i'm undecided!!:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## candoia aspera (Mar 5, 2007)

tbh naming and shaming could be bad. good idea in theory but in practice it would be abused. Some forum members would try to put some serious breeders reputation in doubt for their own personal gain. We've seen two very big cases of this over last year.

a bit like comumism, great idea, crap in practice.


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

candoia aspera said:


> tbh naming and shaming could be bad. good idea in theory but in practice it would be abused. Some forum members would try to put some serious breeders reputation in doubt for their own personal gain. We've seen two very big cases of this over last year.
> 
> a bit like comumism, great idea, crap in practice.


I have already seen a very reputable breeder shot down on forums, cant remember which forum though, we were led to believe he supplied a VERY ill snake. however i dont recall seeing any pics or indeed veterinary reports. just a one sided argument and a lot of people saying 'oh thats terrible i'll never buy from him'

Which was of course ridiculous.

So as i said before we need to be VERY cautious who we screw with and why.


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## candoia aspera (Mar 5, 2007)

Luton Reptile Rescue said:


> I have already seen a very reputable breeder shot down on forums, cant remember which forum though, we were led to believe he supplied a VERY ill snake. however i dont recall seeing any pics or indeed veterinary reports. just a one sided argument and a lot of people saying 'oh thats terrible i'll never buy from him'
> 
> Which was of course ridiculous.
> 
> So as i said before we need to be VERY cautious who we screw with and why.


 
my sentements exactly


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

Also... anyone who doesn't live under a rock should remember that thread. so please no more pm's i dont wanna dredge it up and damage their reputation further. it was really unnecessary in the first place.


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## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

<---------- lives under a rock.

I didnt realise we were talking about a certain person.


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## gecko-kus (Aug 15, 2007)

the other thing with the internet is that people can be who they want to be.... i know this is an extreme example but there's been a lot of warnings about pedo's on the internet chat rooms, luring young girls and boys into meeting them etc...

you don't have a face on the internet and know one can see you in person, for all you know there may be a few people on here googling away to answer questions just so them seem better informed than they actual are...

i don't think any one can claim to be an expert on every thing and we all have our particular interest and more knowledge on specific areas, I feel that this way a forum like this can benefit alot of people by other people giving their experience and as was said before being constructive.... after all know one really wants to scare people away and put them off having an animal, as they may well just go ahead and get it anyway/keep doing the same things wrong.

No-one's perfect and we ALL had to start somewhere in this hobby and learn from experiences and mistakes we've made... I see no point in jumping on the band wagon to have a go at people when they just come here for help and end up being turned away just because they're not doing something like the rest of us.


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

gecko-kus said:


> the other thing with the internet is that people can be who they want to be.... i know this is an extreme example but there's been a lot of warnings about pedo's on the internet chat rooms, luring young girls and boys into meeting them etc...
> 
> you don't have a face on the internet and know one can see you in person, for all you know there may be a few people on here googling away to answer questions just so them seem better informed than they actual are...
> 
> ...


All good points,but nothing to do with this thread really,the 'people' in question are not here asking for advice,help or even opinion,they are lying about who they are,what they know,who they know and the housing and condition of their animals,most of which they are trying to sell.


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## gecko-kus (Aug 15, 2007)

barrym said:


> All good points,but nothing to do with this thread really,the 'people' in question are not here asking for advice,help or even opinion,they are lying about who they are,what they know,who they know and the housing and condition of their animals,most of which they are trying to sell.


if it's really that bad then you should name and shame them in the classifieds chat as unsuitable sellers due to poor care of their animals... I hope that most people will look there and perhaps this will put them off posting again. It's a shame that people feel they have to lie about this sort of thing just to make them feel more important and knowledgable. plus hurting their animals at the same time.

people will always get found out in the end when they're telling pork pies but unless they introduce some test to become a member of the site i don't see what they can do to stop people like this joining.


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## philgc1968 (Jun 20, 2007)

some how i dont think that naming them would make a difference, if it the person i think barry is on about they had had posts about them in classified chat but they never answer the posts when questioned or they try and talk their way out of it, plus they never seem to realise or think they are doing anything wrong, cos at end of it all they after is making a few ££££££££££££££


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

Personally I think people should be free to make constructive criticism.  The problem with *any *forum however is there are always a few that "hide" behind the anonymity of the net to shoot people down and boost their own ego in the process.
Its not just people on here, but on the web in general.

I think we are all old and wise enough to cotton on when people are lying to us. I do get tired of such liars balling their eyes out when people pull them up on it though, what did they expect?!


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## asm1006 (May 5, 2007)

As others have said, if there are grounds to expose a fraudsdter then why not if there is evidence to back it?
I also agree it should not be on just personal opinion as it would be too damaging. By evidence I mean for example buyers/sellers which have had whatever happen and a pattern is forming...after all to expose liars can only protect us?
Problem is they could re-register under another name-a difficult one to sort.
Someone on here commented on not meeting people in their home as you never know who they are. (This was on a thread where some poor member has had some lizards pinched.) 
You never know who is really online, scary really. Easy to relax and forget that. Thankfully most of us are honest: victory:


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## RAPID-FIRE (Jan 1, 2008)

i personally agree if someone is a liar its in all our interests to be aware could save lives money and time for all who are genuine


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## candoia aspera (Mar 5, 2007)

Luton Reptile Rescue said:


> Also... anyone who doesn't live under a rock should remember that thread. so please no more pm's i dont wanna dredge it up and damage their reputation further. it was really unnecessary in the first place.


 
if you're talking what i think you're talking about then any critisism is well deserved. 
it's the idea i was talking about.


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## Andy b 1 (May 14, 2007)

yes... 

i remember there was a thread about me in over 18 once...lasted 19 pages before someone decided to lock it lmao


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