# DWA LIST changes ???



## strommy (Oct 1, 2011)

I haven't got a DWA ... i was just wondering how often the list is up dated ? as i have a schokari sand racer .. and i think im right in saying they used to be on the DWA list until 2007 . so i just wondered how often they assessed the list and made any changes


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## bw89 (Jan 11, 2010)

I may be wrong but i dont think there is a set time between modifications and species are added/removed as Defra (I think) sees fit. The last modification was in 2007 and can be downloaded as a PDF here:

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/wildlife/protect/documents/dwa-animallist.pdf

_Psammophis _is not there so was removed


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## strommy (Oct 1, 2011)

ok thanks for that .. i would be interested if you guys feel that the list is correct ? ie .. should there be snakes on there that currently are not ? and snakes that are on there that you feel shouldn't be ? ok i know DEFRA make the rules .. just interested to see what you guys thought :2thumb:


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

I think all vipers being tarred with the same brush is a bit off. i have a sri lanken green pit viper and you couldn't wish for a more placid snake. In sri lanka (i've read) they are classed as harmless because thier bite just has local pain and swelling for a day. Also montpellier snakes, i have been bitten by one of these, rear fanged but it got me never the less, slight pain and a bit of swelling in the area of the bite for a couple of hours , i did get a headache too but not sure if this was down to the bite. I've seen pictures of mangrove snake bites and they were far worse than the montpellier bite.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

it took 8 years to consider the last changes it doesnt happen very often and its a very slow process, someone correct me if I am wrong but I dont think there were any changes before that at all.


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## strommy (Oct 1, 2011)

rigsby said:


> I think all vipers being tarred with the same brush is a bit off. i have a sri lanken green pit viper and you couldn't wish for a more placid snake. In sri lanka (i've read) they are classed as harmless because thier bite just has local pain and swelling for a day. Also montpellier snakes, i have been bitten by one of these, rear fanged but it got me never the less, slight pain and a bit of swelling in the area of the bite for a couple of hours , i did get a headache too but not sure if this was down to the bite. I've seen pictures of mangrove snake bites and they were far worse than the montpellier bite.


 i did wonder if DEFRA had tarred all the snakes with the same brush.. but then i guess its easier for them to do it this way.


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

strommy said:


> i did wonder if DEFRA had tarred all the snakes with the same brush.. but then i guess its easier for them to do it this way.


it saves them having to go into all the viper species and decide which are dangerous and which aren't. Theres been more people killed by bee stings than adder bites in this country. You would have to have a bad reaction to an adder bite for it to be serious .


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

rigsby said:


> it saves them having to go into all the viper species and decide which are dangerous and which aren't. Theres been more people killed by bee stings than adder bites in this country. You would have to have a bad reaction to an adder bite for it to be serious .


A lady that lives in my city, was bitten by a berus. 

She went to the doctor saying she was sure she got tagged, and they brushed it off. Gave her antibiotics lol.

The thing is it may not cause 'harm' to an adult, but say it wasn't on the DWA act..and someone's child got bitten. It may have more serious consequences.


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## kerrithsoden (Dec 6, 2009)

I believe captive berus deliver more venom than wild ones due to not having a need to use it as often for frozen prey, I believe some research into this was done by Luke yeomans?


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## Avpl (Nov 13, 2007)

kerrithsoden said:


> I believe captive berus deliver more venom than wild ones due to not having a need to use it as often for frozen prey, I believe some research into this was done by Luke yeomans?


So the snake can differientiate between a F/T prey and live? I doubt it.

Remember, the act is there to protect the *public *from *harm *not death. And an adult was bitten by a berus a while back and she went into cardiac arrest I think.

nsn, she may have received a dry bite?


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

Anthony Laing said:


> So the snake can differientiate between a F/T prey and live? I doubt it.
> 
> Remember, the act is there to protect the *public *from *harm *not death. And an adult was bitten by a berus a while back and she went into cardiac arrest I think.
> 
> nsn, she may have received a dry bite?


Nope, this is the case: 'That's not a snake bite!' What doctors told woman bitten by adder which could have killed her | Mail Online


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## Tim Hallam (Aug 17, 2010)

SiUK said:


> it took 8 years to consider the last changes it doesnt happen very often and its a very slow process, someone correct me if I am wrong but I dont think there were any changes before that at all.


Yes there were changes before the 2007 review around about 1988-89 I think that's when Mangroves and Montpeliers went on along with squirrel monkeys and Tamarins 
the controversy at the time was over squirrel monkeys because it was claimed they used the act to end the trade in seaside photographers, which wasn't a bad thing but the act requires the species to be capable of loss of limb, so it was felt by many that this was stretching it a bit.
it was also felt at the time that the addition of mangrove snakes had more to do with stopping their trade which was in the thousands at the time ,it seemed like every petshop that dealt in reptiles had at least half a dozen at any one time looking quite sorry for themselves -the fact they could achieve 6ftplus and were certainly capable of envenomation put them on the schedule rather than toxicity.
with the last review they took more off than they put on sadly, Montpeliers are still on I don't think Psammophis ever went on ( I can remember thinking at the time why put mangroves on but leave sand snakes off?) I may be wrong


and for those who were wondering,in the 2007 review
it wasn't totally the decision of DEFRA there were many lengthy meetings with the joint consultative committee which represented animal keepers interests and it was largely on the advice of the committee that these changes were implemented.

this is probably the least punitive the act has ever been.
I doubt there will be another review for at least 10 years and then it will take another several years to be past by parliament.

and for those wondering when?
Gila's and Beadeds will never come off nor will Dwarf Crocs and Dwarf Caiman no matter how much people would like them to.
I also wanted to say do not underestimate the effects from a _V.berus_ bite they are really quite dangerous and deservedly belong on the DWAA Schedule.
cheers Tim.


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## Thrasops (Apr 15, 2008)

It was _Psammophis sibilans_, not _P. schokari_, that were formerly on the DWA. They came off along with Mangrove Snakes in 2007.

On a purely hypothetical note though, I am not aware of any bite histories from _P. schokari_ *or* _P. aegyptius_ (which is what I believe your specimen to be)... however, given that this species is one that relies on a very occasional and incidental source of food in many places within its range (migrating birds), and can go months without eating, it follows that they _may_ have evolved a more potent venom as certain other snakes with similar diets have in order to make damn sure they capture what prey does come within their reach... this is pure conjecture on my part of course, and it is in your favour that this species seems largely reluctant to bite (none of my specimens have ever given any indication of doing so)... but I would say it would be best to avoid a bite just in case!

Regards,
Francis


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## Alfonzo (Mar 7, 2008)

Tim Hallam said:


> Yes there were changes before the 2007 review around about 1988-89 I think that's when Mangroves and Montpeliers went on along with squirrel monkeys and Tamarins
> the controversy at the time was over squirrel monkeys because it was claimed they used the act to end the trade in seaside photographers, which wasn't a bad thing *but the act requires the species to be capable of loss of limb*, so it was felt by many that this was stretching it a bit.



Are you being figurative or metaphorical or something here? I'm pretty sure that a primate (or any other animal for that matter) doesn't have to be able to cause the loss of a limb to be considered potentially harmful to the public.

Incidentally, tamarins and squirrel monkeys are not on the list... did they go on in '88-'89 and come off in 2007?


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## Tim Hallam (Aug 17, 2010)

Alfonzo said:


> Are you being figurative or metaphorical or something here? I'm pretty sure that a primate (or any other animal for that matter) doesn't have to be able to cause the loss of a limb to be considered potentially harmful to the public.
> 
> Incidentally, tamarins and squirrel monkeys are not on the list... did they go on in '88-'89 and come off in 2007?


a yard stick is required as a qualifying requirement to be considered dangerous 
and inclusion to the schedule so at the very least the animal should be capable of causing loss of limb most are capable of much more. this was the yard stick as I remember it may be the requirements have changed but it was this argument that saw Squirrel monkeys,tamarins,raccoons,coati's,etc come off.

and yes squirrel monkeys and tamarins came off in 2007 prior to that only cotton-eared marmosets were not dwa

on a lighter note on the first schedule in 1976 they completely overlooked Elephants either because they figured no one would ever own one or they just forgot! this was rectified in 1982


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## PESKY (May 25, 2010)

rigsby said:


> it saves them having to go into all the viper species and decide which are dangerous and which aren't. Theres been more people killed by bee stings than adder bites in this country. You would have to have a bad reaction to an adder bite for it to be serious .


in all fairness in captivity this isn't strickly true. 

Alot of venomous snakes stop using venom after a while when being fed on f/t. i had a friend who kept adders and got a bite, his arm was swollen for 3 days then as he lifted a water bowl from a high viv it 'pumped' the venom around his body and he had an anaphylactic shock. After this he tested another of his captive bred adders and it had a vemom count og 40mg, the common fihgure is around 28mg with 30mg being what is taken to be a potentially fatal bite. 40mg is easily enough. its something for everyone that keeps hots to think about, unless you regulary milk them or feed live this could happen in any snake


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## PESKY (May 25, 2010)

kerrithsoden said:


> I believe captive berus deliver more venom than wild ones due to not having a need to use it as often for frozen prey, I believe some research into this was done by Luke yeomans?


 
sorry pal didn't see your post yeah it was Luke


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## PESKY (May 25, 2010)

Anthony Laing said:


> *So the snake can differientiate between a F/T prey and live? I doubt it.*
> 
> Remember, the act is there to protect the *public *from *harm *not death. And an adult was bitten by a berus a while back and she went into cardiac arrest I think.
> 
> nsn, she may have received a dry bite?


 
so are you saying venomous snakes have no control over the amount of venom they inject? If thats what you think then why whats the situation with dry bites?


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## kerrithsoden (Dec 6, 2009)

PESKY said:


> sorry pal didn't see your post yeah it was Luke


Cheers, was starting to think I had imagined it.


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## coldestblood (Jun 4, 2011)

kerrithsoden said:


> I believe captive berus deliver more venom than wild ones due to not having a need to use it as often for frozen prey, I believe some research into this was done by Luke yeomans?


Has anyone got any more information on this? How many snakes were used (captile and wild), and what were the results?


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

PESKY said:


> in all fairness in captivity this isn't strickly true.
> 
> Alot of venomous snakes stop using venom after a while when being fed on f/t. i had a friend who kept adders and got a bite, his arm was swollen for 3 days then as he lifted a water bowl from a high viv it 'pumped' the venom around his body and he had an anaphylactic shock. After this he tested another of his captive bred adders and it had a vemom count og 40mg, the common fihgure is around 28mg with 30mg being what is taken to be a potentially fatal bite. 40mg is easily enough. its something for everyone that keeps hots to think about, unless you regulary milk them or feed live this could happen in any snake


i saw this video on youtube and this isnt just with our natives ive heard that snake charmers in thailand and india regularly milk there cobras or feed them live food so that they empty there venom glands i spose its the equivilent of having a very reluctent gf and getting blue balls any glands gonna swell to a larger capacity lol


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