# Can Geckos swim?



## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

While some species may have the ability to get out of water, NO gecko species will get any enjoyment out of it, in fact they are physiologically incapable of enjoyment. 

Under no circumstances would I ever consider giving one of my geckos regardless of species a bath.

Andy


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## daveplymouth (May 26, 2009)

i have gave one of my leos a bath before to help get some shed of his toes. He didnt seem to mind it although the water was only about half inch deep but he didnt seem to dislike it either just sort of walked around.


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

i take mine to the local center parks, granted you need to make 4 little armbands but they love the water slides and the wave machines, ya gotta love em.


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## carolineg (Nov 30, 2009)

One of mine seems to like climbing in the waterbowl tonight!


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## spikemu (Jul 5, 2008)

my geckos are also scuba divers  
maaaan they been swimming with sharks ... jellyfish ... u name it they dun it


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## tina-tots (Feb 20, 2009)

ginnerone said:


> i take mine to the local center parks, granted you need to make 4 little armbands but they love the water slides and the wave machines, ya gotta love em.


tee hee.. but can they catch the brick though???


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

tina-tots said:


> tee hee.. but can they catch the brick though???


they just learned to swim 10m and blow bubbles under water, nearly got their first swimming certificate:lol2:
scooba diving eh, mine are more into snorkling:lol2:


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## spikemu (Jul 5, 2008)

ginnerone said:


> they just learned to swim 10m and blow bubbles under water, nearly got their first swimming certificate:lol2:
> scooba diving eh, mine are more into snorkling:lol2:


They also done the under water footage for david attenboroughs "life" >.>
(the show on bbc every week)


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

spikemu said:


> They also done the under water footage for david attenboroughs "life" >.>
> (the show on bbc every week)


cool, mine eat shark gills for fun lol


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## spikemu (Jul 5, 2008)

ginnerone said:


> cool, mine eat shark gills for fun lol


haha ... mine have swam through the worldsbiggest whale and got blown out the blow hole :whistling2: and won in a fight against a sword fish


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## Garko (Nov 9, 2009)

GlasgowGecko said:


> While some species may have the ability to get out of water, NO gecko species will get any enjoyment out of it, in fact they are physiologically incapable of enjoyment.


I’m not quite sure how you would quantify reptilian enjoyment - suggestions anyone ? - but reptiles certainly express the same neuronal receptors in their brains and CNS that are widely accepted to modulate behaviours and responses in most species of vertebrates and invertebrates. These receptors include various dopamine receptor subtypes together with several other ‘aminergic’ e.g. serotonin and ‘peptidergic’ receptors. The neurotransmitter dopamine is believed to be at least partly responsible for the perception of ‘pleasure’ and the fact that reptiles express the receptors indicates that they also produce dopamine. It follows that reptiles are capable of the same positive responses to dopamine receptor stimulation that other species e.g. humans perceive as pleasure. Studies indicate that dopamine levels are elevated in male reptiles during courtship, and the same is also probably true during feeding – the ‘enjoyment’ response is what partly drives these behaviours. So I would argue that in fact geckos *are* physiologically capable of enjoyment, but whether they actively pursue ‘enjoyment’ in the human sense is another thing altogether. 
I’ve provided some references below – unfortunately not all are accessible due to subscriber/copyright restrictions.
http://www.utexas.edu/research/crewslab/pdfs/Dias_Crews_Gecko.pdf - dopamine in leopard geckos.
_Brain Behav Evol_ 1998;51:23-32 – elevated aminergic neurotransmitter levels in reptiles during breeding activity – no link as it’s subscriber-only.
General and Comparative Endocrinology 141 (2005) 259–270 – serotonin receptors in garter snakes – no link possible again - sorry.
http://www.grinnell.edu/academic/neuroscience/pn-v2/includes/2Sandler.pdf - pleasure effect of dopamine mentioned in this paper (admittedly in humans, but mammals and reptiles share much common physiology).


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## spikemu (Jul 5, 2008)

Garko said:


> I’m not quite sure how you would quantify reptilian enjoyment - suggestions anyone ?


u judge by their smile xD

( cheeeese anyone ??? ) 

lol


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## Garko (Nov 9, 2009)

I’m sorry for the depth of the above reply, but the quality of some of the shallow humour posted as replies to this serious question has really taken a dive off the deep end. This may just be the fin end of the wedge. I decided it was time to wade in, so that hopefully we can pool our knowledge in order to keep this thread afloat.............

"Water, water, everywhere nor any drop for skink".........adapted from 'The Rime of the Ancient Monitor' - Samuel Taylor ColeRidge-Tailed


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Garko said:


> I’m not quite sure how you would quantify reptilian enjoyment - suggestions anyone ? - but reptiles certainly express the same neuronal receptors in their brains and CNS that are widely accepted to modulate behaviours and responses in most species of vertebrates and invertebrates. These receptors include various dopamine receptor subtypes together with several other ‘aminergic’ e.g. serotonin and ‘peptidergic’ receptors. The neurotransmitter dopamine is believed to be at least partly responsible for the perception of ‘pleasure’ and the fact that reptiles express the receptors indicates that they also produce dopamine. It follows that reptiles are capable of the same positive responses to dopamine receptor stimulation that other species e.g. humans perceive as pleasure. Studies indicate that dopamine levels are elevated in male reptiles during courtship, and the same is also probably true during feeding – the ‘enjoyment’ response is what partly drives these behaviours. So I would argue that in fact geckos *are* physiologically capable of enjoyment, but whether they actively pursue ‘enjoyment’ in the human sense is another thing altogether.
> I’ve provided some references below – unfortunately not all are accessible due to subscriber/copyright restrictions.
> http://www.utexas.edu/research/crewslab/pdfs/Dias_Crews_Gecko.pdf - dopamine in leopard geckos.
> _Brain Behav Evol_ 1998;51:23-32 – elevated aminergic neurotransmitter levels in reptiles during breeding activity – no link as it’s subscriber-only.
> ...


While the papers are interesting, and I would not dispute the presence of various chemical components that in other species (notably humans) have a demonstrated link to various emotions, this is not the same as leopard geckos demonstrating emotion. Can you consider hormone mediated/ regulated activity emotion? I would suggest not, and the first paper makes no real suggestion of this. Of course it is debatable, but emotion is certainly linked to higher brain function, which clearly is absent in the vast majority of species including all reptiles.
I would dispute the second link fully for this reason.

My major problem here is that people infer emotion on animals where there is no evidence that the animal is capable of it. Presence of chemical components, while linked to emotions in humans, but not fully responsible for them, is not evidence of emotion in reptiles.

Andy


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

ER...... yeah what he said:2thumb:


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## spikemu (Jul 5, 2008)

they gottsaa have emotions... i mean my leo hates any food except mealies .... so thts either an EXTREME love for mealies... or EXTREME hate for anything thats got legs ........ u make geckos sound like ryt miserable buggers lol but look ........









a smile


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

spikemu said:


> they gottsaa have emotions... i mean my leo hates any food except mealies .... so thts either an EXTREME love for mealies... or EXTREME hate for anything thats got legs ........ u make geckos sound like ryt miserable buggers lol but look ........
> 
> a smile


Humans are constantly looking for human characters in other species, and even inanimate objects. This does not mean they are capable of human emotion.

I can not say that geckos do not exhibit a species (or even genus or above) type of emotional behaviour, they may do. But we can be clear that they do not show any form of human emotion. Their brain, based on all I have read, is simply not capable of the higher level function we tend to project onto them.

Andy


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## spikemu (Jul 5, 2008)

ooo wen u put it like tht .......:whistling2:

lol 

even the gecko in your sigs smiling :whistling2:
i think there incapapable of being anything but happy :Na_Na_Na_Na:

lol


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

i must say on this subject, my Tokays love me, they come out and lay on me and are quite perplexed by the invention that is television, rocky will sit for hours watching it with me, but if my son goes near the viv he gapes at him and has taken an extreme disliking to him just by the sight of him but is fine with me and my daughters and the mrs, although one of the females is fine with me but is very cautious with everyone else and climbs up my arm and hides in my collar till they have gone, if i unlatch the viv rocky will come to the front and wait for me to open the door and pick him up, i think this is a blatent expression of pleasure as he enjoys coming out, work that one out.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

spikemu said:


> ooo wen u put it like tht .......:whistling2:
> 
> lol
> 
> ...


Perhaps you are right. In fact if you write 8 and then brackets together your brain will instantly see a face with glasses on... see 8)

Andy


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## spikemu (Jul 5, 2008)

ginnerone said:


> i must say on this subject, my Tokays love me, they come out and lay on me and are quite perplexed by the invention that is television, rocky will sit for hours watching it with me, but if my son goes near the viv he gapes at him and has taken an extreme disliking to him just by the sight of him but is fine with me and my daughters and the mrs, although one of the females is fine with me but is very cautious with everyone else and climbs up my arm and hides in my collar till they have gone, if i unlatch the viv rocky will come to the front and wait for me to open the door and pick him up, i think this is a blatent expression of pleasure as he enjoys coming out, work that one out.


maybe hes slightly survival impaired ???? :lol2:

NAH HES AWESOME ... i wish my trokays dun tht ... bert hides behind the log nd tells me to get lost nd doris just likes me for food lol 



GlasgowGecko said:


> Perhaps you are right. In fact if you write 8 and then brackets together your brain will instantly see a face with glasses on... see 8)
> 
> Andy


 
HAHA .... now id love to see papers explaining tht  

geckos are the hippies of lizards  lol


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

spikemu said:


> maybe hes slightly survival impaired ???? :lol2:
> 
> NAH HES AWESOME ... i wish my trokays dun tht ... bert hides behind the log nd tells me to get lost nd doris just likes me for food lol
> 
> ...


He is wary of strangers and likes to be high up when they are around but once they've gone he comes and sits on my arm and watches T.V, you can see his head moving side to side as he watches it, it's well funny.


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## spikemu (Jul 5, 2008)

ginnerone said:


> He is wary of strangers and likes to be high up when they are around but once they've gone he comes and sits on my arm and watches T.V, you can see his head moving side to side as he watches it, it's well funny.


maybe its a slight case of the stupids ??? lol 

i soooo gotta see this feat  lol a tv watchin tokay .... belongs on you been framed


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## Garko (Nov 9, 2009)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Can you consider hormone mediated/ regulated activity emotion?
> 
> *Aggression in reptiles is hormone mediated - if not an emotion, then what is aggression ? *
> 
> ...


hope that clarifies my thoughts ??


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## Garko (Nov 9, 2009)

I think I'll stick to the crap jokes from now on - this is too much like work..........:whistling2:


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

i don't think he's stupid (although he could be lol) i just think he's incredibly tame to the point that he feels so secure and comfortable with people he will happily relax and chill out with them rather than hiding away from them, i don't even bribe him with treats neither he just does it, and the female is heading the same way, she is slightly more scatty and is chilled with me but if someone comes near me she tences up till they've gone then relaxes again, she don't watch tv though lol, she just likes the warmth of my skin lol, and she does get treats mainly cos she jumps onto the cricket tubs and makes a right noise and mess so it's easier to just give her some to stop her lunging for em:lol2: lol.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Garko said:


> hope that clarifies my thoughts ??


I don't question your logic, however it would appear that our definitions probably vary quite extensively. I am very reserved when it comes to assumptions, especially when the evidence is quite sketchy.

Definition is clearly important. Enjoyment is certainly stimulated by chemical components (or visa versa) however we really cannot under estimate the role our incredibly evolved brain has on the perception of the chemical stimulus. The brains of reptiles are not capable of any thing like the type of reaction our brains are capable of, and so it seems most parsimonious to suggest that they cannot experience 'emotion' in a manner similar to us.

Further to this, aggression in humans can certainly be termed an emotion, but for the same reasons as above can we class aggression in reptiles as the same. It is likely hormone mediated, but it is very unlikely to be a process which is considered by the animal, especially when it is again impossible to attribute higher brain function to the animal. 

In honesty differing on definitions is not important, but being able to see the difference a highly evolved brain can have on the way putative emotions develop is. I would suggest that reptiles are capable of hormone mediated behaviour which falls short of being a true emotion due to their relatively poor (when compared to higher mammals) brain function.

Andy


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

Garko said:


> I think I'll stick to the crap jokes from now on - this is too much like work..........:whistling2:


i would, i tried the scientific approach a few times on different threads and stuff but it's no where near as amusing .


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

Well i asked Rocky the tokay his opinion on the matter, i let him read the thread and was disgusted, so disgusted infact he turned his head in shame after reading it


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Disgusted or bored? Both valid emotions...  - you see another bit of evidence for humans looking for human characters. I only typed a ; and a ) and yet you and Rocky are clearly seeing a winking face.

Andy


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Disgusted or bored? Both valid emotions...  - you see another bit of evidence for humans looking for human characters. I only typed a ; and a ) and yet you and Rocky are clearly seeing a winking face.
> 
> Andy


:lol2: Hes not looking now, he's upset and hurt, i think there is a tear rolling down his sad little face, lol theres loads of emotions there lol, i think the discusion has run its course if im honest :lol2:


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## Garko (Nov 9, 2009)

ginnerone said:


> Well i asked Rocky the tokay his opinion on the matter, i let him read the thread and was disgusted, so disgusted infact he turned his head in shame after reading it
> image


I would actually disagree - to me he looks thoughtful and reflective, as if he's questioning every value that he holds dear to him, and is hanging his head in anguish at the realisation that he's not really experiencing emotions at all. He looks devastated - how could you have done that to him - have you no regard for his feelings..........???


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## spikemu (Jul 5, 2008)

LOL AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH its like a bad dream !!!!! 
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH lol


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

Garko said:


> I would actually disagree - to me he looks thoughtful and reflective, as if he's questioning every value that he holds dear to him, and is hanging his head in anguish at the realisation that he's not really experiencing emotions at all. He looks devastated - how could you have done that to him - have you no regard for his feelings..........???


you may be right, i think he is weeping, he's on my shoulder now sniffling to him self and licking the tears from his eyes:lol2:


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Garko said:


> I think I'll stick to the crap jokes from now on - this is too much like work..........:whistling2:


Don't do that, its so infrequent that you get good debate on here.

Andy


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Don't do that, its so infrequent that you get good debate on here.
> 
> Andy


 Or a mass-debate:lol2:


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## Garko (Nov 9, 2009)

ginnerone said:


> you may be right, i think he is weeping, he's on my shoulder now sniffling to him self and licking the tears from his eyes:lol2:


Awwww - tell him its T'okay, the nasty man with the bright green lizards has gone now.........


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## Garko (Nov 9, 2009)

ginnerone said:


> Or a mass-debate:lol2:


b*gger it - you got there first........


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

Garko said:


> b*gger it - you got there first........


LOL i saw, i typed, i posted, i WON lol


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Further to this, aggression in humans can certainly be termed an emotion, but for the same reasons as above can we class aggression in reptiles as the same. It is likely hormone mediated, but it is very unlikely to be a process which is considered by the animal, especially when it is again impossible to attribute higher brain function to the animal.


*nods* or to put it another way .......
at this point in time I am in a state of hormonal/chemical flux....... now if I was a beastie/reptile/*insert animal here* then such a 'flux' could quite possibly result in my physically and bloodily ripping someones head off in an act of aggression and further doing so whilst showing no emotions as to the repercussions of such an action ~ but seeing how as a human I therefore have a 'higher brain function' (although I sometimes wonder if this applies to all humans) and am able to calculate not only the effects of doing so but also if the momentary joy of physically ripping soemones head off weighed up enough to equal the penalty for carrying such an act out : victory:


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## Garko (Nov 9, 2009)

ginnerone said:


> LOL i saw, i typed, i posted, i WON lol


Ah yes, but when you're mass-debating, coming first isn't always best.....


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

SleepyD said:


> *nods* or to put it another way .......
> at this point in time I am in a state of hormonal/chemical flux....... now if I was a beastie/reptile/*insert animal here* then such a 'flux' could quite possibly result in my physically and bloodily ripping someones head off in an act of aggression and further doing so whilst showing no emotions as to the repercussions of such an action ~ but seeing how as a human I therefore have a 'higher brain function' (although I sometimes wonder if this applies to all humans) and am able to calculate not only the effects of doing so but also if the momentary joy of physically ripping soemones head off weighed up enough to equal the penalty for carrying such an act out : victory:


this in my eyes would depend on the person in question you would be inflicting the "head off" treatment to, there is one or two people i know of (and an entire classification of people) that the risk of getting caught set against the penalties set for the crime would be worth risking to stop these certain people from harming others and animals which would put the benefits in a higher bracket than the downfalls, IE anyone who tried to hurt my kids or reps for example.


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

Garko said:


> Ah yes, but when you're mass-debating, coming first isn't always best.....


ah your thinking if a joint debate where as a mass-debate i think speed can be of the essence:lol2:


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## Garko (Nov 9, 2009)

SleepyD said:


> I could quite possibly physically and bloodily rip someones head off in an act of aggression whilst showing no emotions : victory:


Apologies for the 'creative' edit, but *Ouch* - where did that come from ? I thought you were supposed to be a 'short, plump, grey-haired grandmother..........??? Sleepy by name, Psycho by nature.........??

Help !! Let me out of here.........!!!!!!!


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

Garko said:


> Apoligies for the 'creative' edit, but *Ouch* - where did that come from ? I thought you were supposed to be a 'short, plump, grey-haired grandmother..........??? Sleepy by name, Psycho by nature.........??


age and size is irrelevant to me, i NEVER mess with hormonal women, EVER, and pregnant women are the worst OMG they're terrible, always be nice to them or fear their wrath lol:lol2:


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

ginnerone said:


> this in my eyes would depend on the person in question you would be inflicting the "head off" treatment to, there is one or two people i know of (and an entire classification of people) that the risk of getting caught set against the penalties set for the crime would be worth risking to stop these certain people from harming others and animals which would put the benefits in a higher bracket than the downfalls, IE anyone who tried to hurt my kids or reps for example.


I would agree on those points however I was referring to the chemical/hormone induced aggression and the use of higher brain functions which delineates the differences between us and reptiles or viceversa ... a rather ideal comparison I thought



Garko said:


> Apologies for the 'creative' edit, but *Ouch* - where did that come from ? I thought you were supposed to be a 'short, plump, grey-haired grandmother..........??? Sleepy by name, Psycho by nature.........??
> Help !! Let me out of here.........!!!!!!!


ah yes ... the architectual portrayel of a kindly grayhaired grandmother sat in a rockingchair whilst knitting ...........

:lol2: I'm more comfortable holding a chainsaw then knitting needles, I rather prefer reptiles to soft cuddley animals and whilst the sound of children gently sleeping may bring a smile to my lips the sound of a bloke snoring is likely to bring out the lead-filled rollingpin :2thumb:
while I may be sleepy by nature I am quietly profficient at swinging an encyclopedia of education should I so wish 


ginnerone said:


> age and size is irrelevant to me, i NEVER mess with hormonal women, EVER, and pregnant women are the worst OMG they're terrible, always be nice to them or fear their wrath lol:lol2:


wise man : victory:


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## olivine (Feb 5, 2009)

ginnerone said:


> age and size is irrelevant to me, i NEVER mess with hormonal women, EVER, and pregnant women are the worst OMG they're terrible, always be nice to them or fear their wrath lol:lol2:


Nah, grandmothers are far, far, worse....especially after a cider or two...:whistling2:


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## NightGecko (Jul 17, 2009)

Lewis28 said:


> This is a really random query, but my brother has a couple of Beardies and they love swimming, so I was wondering if Gargoyle Geckos and Cresties like it as well and if it is something that they should do occasionaly! Its just something I suddenly thought of!
> 
> And when I say swim I mean in very shallow water and being watched the whole time!


 
I've just popped one into the toilet so I'll let you know in a few mins : victory:

He hasn't resurfaced yet though, so I don't think it's gonna be a yes :whistling2:


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## NightGecko (Jul 17, 2009)

he didn't come back... :lol2:


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

NightGecko said:


> he didn't come back... :lol2:


not a swimmer then:lol2:


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## spikemu (Jul 5, 2008)

i got a gecko paddling round my toilet :s how did tht get there ??


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## NightGecko (Jul 17, 2009)

spikemu said:


> i got a gecko paddling round my toilet :s how did tht get there ??


 
Hey, give him back! :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## spikemu (Jul 5, 2008)

lol .,.... oooo i myt keep him 
train him up with my other deep sea diving geckos


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## mariex4 (Oct 19, 2009)

the only time i give mine a bath is if incures inpactation or struggles to shed but otherwise its not a thing i do daily


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