# 'Viv' for Ranitomeya imitator 'Varadero'



## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

Hi guys, I have keep on having ideas for what I should do.

I have a spare 64L really useful storage box. 71 X 44 X 31 (LWH)


I have read that they like a tall viv, but I have seen some people keep them in 30X30X30 Exo terras. So I am asking, would my dimensions be enough?
I will drill small 2mm holes in the top of the viv for more ventilation. 

For a comparison a 30X30X45 exo terra has a volume of 41L.

Plants will be the usual:
bromeliads (about 3-4)
Wondering Jew
maiden Hair
Fern? (Not sure if the spores are bad in an enclosed area)
(others later on, if needed)

It will be layered from bottom to top:
Hydroleca
Tree fern substrate
oak leaves
(open to any recommendations)

I am also looking for clarification on their diet:
Wingless/flightless/other small wingless flies
Size 1 micro crickets
Tropical woodlice (natural in viv)

I will dust them with calcium powder, and feed the crickets a fruit puree.


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Patto96 said:


> Hi guys, I have keep on having ideas for what I should do.
> 
> I have a spare 64L really useful storage box. 71 X 44 X 31 (LWH)
> 
> ...


You probably wont like this but hear goes. Firstly 2mm holes are too big and will mean you have fruit flies everywhere. Also if it is an original RUB you will need to seal the lid as they are not a complete flush fit. I think 31 high is too low. By the time you have the drainage layer and the substrate in its going to be closer to 21 high. I know people keep them in 30 cubes but in my opinion they are only suitable as a rearing viv. 

Adam


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## s6t6nic6l (May 15, 2010)

how are you gonna enjoy observing these :hmm:

you gonna install a glass window or peer into from above afta removing the lid everytime!


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## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

The boxes are completely transparent. I can drill 1mm holes. The lid is water tight when the handles are up (it acts as a lock).

The height however is a problem. Are there any terrestial Ranitomeya species, ones which will do well in a short vivarium.

So any other species which would suit this size vivarium?

Thanks for the feedback.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Tubs work ok as a temporary home for us,I utilise then alot,but wouldn't really want to house frogs permanently in one. I see all the negatives both Adam and Nic have illustrated. I'm also with Adam on not being keen on 30cm cubes. By all means use a tub as a qt or temporary home though. Make vents by using a holesaw and covering with ff proof mesh. Platto building out and creating a living ecosystem in a viv for dart frogs is something really worth doing,as well as being fun,one can create something of great beauty and a much more challenging environment for the frogs. By challenging I mean physically,more of a "jungle gym if you like,than in a tub. tubs are somewhat limited in this respect. Nic's notes on visability ring very true,mate darts are fascinating to watch,they are not like many phibs that sit and do little,your pleasure that you get from keeping will be greatly enhanced using a viv,I just can't stress this enough. You will want to watch the parental care imis are capable of as well as all the other nuances of behaviour

Mate I'm not a fan of crickets either,I've never used them mind,but they might just be too big for imis anyway. Buddy the feeder that you will want to culture that I think is missing from your list are springtails. Also a recommendation for repashy Ca plus as your most used vit dust 

good luck

Stu


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

Glass viv all the way for me. Listen to what Stu and Adam are saying. Tubs are handy- I have a couple incase I need to seperate frogs or incase something goes wrong with their permanant home, I just don't think they're ever going to be a viable full time option like they are for snake keepers.

Stear clear of 30cm cubes, I have a 30x30x45 that I'll be planting up for imitators in time for next Aprils BAKS meet hopefully. Those extra 15cm of height cover your back for the drainage layer and give you that bit more room to play with although I prefer 45 cubes for ease of planting and access.

Listen to Stu when he says culture the hell out of springtails. I have near adult aratus and some nice chunky leucs that still gobble down springs like there's no tomorrow and these are huge frogs compared to the imitators you're wanting. Imitators are ridiculously small and springs are going to make up a massive part of their diet so will need culturing in pretty high numbers before you even think about getting them.

If you want such a pretty species of frog don't scrimp on the housing. A nice planted tank will look stunning and makes keeping them all the better in my oppinion.


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## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

Ok thanks guys. If you were to keep a Ranitomeya species, what size vivarium would you prefer to keep it in. Would it be worth going for a very tall e.g.40X40X80 cm, with a narrow base. Or something a bit shorter like 40X40X60. 

I know that spring tails are important. But what depth and kind of substrate works best to get a high density, or is it worth culturing some on the side, to supplement?

Plants wise, what do you suggest.

Also how many frogs should I have to keep the spring tail population stable.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Patto96 said:


> Ok thanks guys. If you were to keep a Ranitomeya species, what size vivarium would you prefer to keep it in. Would it be worth going for a very tall e.g.40X40X80 cm, with a narrow base. Or something a bit shorter like 40X40X60.
> 
> I know that spring tails are important. But what depth and kind of substrate works best to get a high density, or is it worth culturing some on the side, to supplement?
> 
> ...


As far as the springtails go,having a stable population will be relative to the floor area vs the number and size of frogs. It's incredibly difficult to answer precisely...so many variables. This is why we culture them in numbers as well. There are so many ways to create a dart frog substrate it is untrue,the primary facet though is that it is relatively free draining,for me the most important ingredient by far being leaf litter and this covered with whole leaves in some depth. Woodlice and springtails will break this down,not only proving the food we desire for frogs,but also providing hunting and microniches for the frogs. As to viv size well a bigger viv is always going to give one more space for frogs,which ever dimension matters not really.But a cleverly set out viv will add again to usable space for the occupants. I'm not really sure about this so called difference between aboreal vivs and horizontal a 20 cm differnce and the viv is called aboreal,seems nuts really,especially when some frogs might visit kids 200' up a tree,then come back to ground to hunt. If the viv is well set out then so called aboreal frogs would probably get more out of a larger floor area than height. there is alot one can do to give them a good climbing frame.
I'll let someone else play plants,but I'll say this avoid the really really fast growing stuff in a viv, unless its bloody big. inch plant,straight ficus pummilla etc. Once out plants get their feet in they invaribly,well almst all) grow like hell anyway. i'd rather not be in the viv constantly pruning,I have enough to wade through already,beside the disturbance to frogs

Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Verts make it easier to provide vertical climbing spaces in a narrower footprint is all Stu, I use them myself for this very reason. If your horizontal space is limited they are a good solution for many thumbnails and pumilio.

For pums and thumbs I like to use at least a 40x40x50cm. I've tried more "terrestrial" style vivs, and found that frogs don't behave the same in them (my pumilio Punta Clara are in a 50x50x40cm and I never see them as they just vanish). 40x40x60s are perfect too.

I do currently have a pair of r. imitator banded in a 30x30x45 Exo as I bought them with it, but as soon as I can they will be moved to bigger. They hide way too much in there, and it's way too small to work in. My pumilio black jeans demonstrated this too, when I kept them in a 30x40x40 I barely ever saw them. Moved them to a 40x40x50 tall and now I see them constantly, they're producing a larger number of offspring too as I can fit more larger broms in there for them. : victory:

Ade


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## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

Thanks guys. So would a 40X40X60 be sufficient for a small group of 4? Or would it be ebtter to start as a pair, then add more later (if possible), so I can make sure that not all the food is used up, and add more if needed.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Personally I'd say start with a pair.some of these small frogs do well in groups,some might be trickier and are better in pairs. Further detail really needs to come from folks that keep more rani,than we do so you can grab more detail on your chosen species. But just be aware even with a well stocked viv,you will still need to feed,possibly in the region of 3 times per week(dependent on age of frogs etc. Culturing food is the backbone of what dart keepers do,this is where we spend most of our time. I can't stress enough the importance of getting this down,before one has frogs.

Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Agreed. I'd also say that if this is your first venture into dart frogs there are much easier ones to start with than any of the ranitomeya. They're stupid fast, very small and can be a lot of work. : victory: Heck I find my pumilio easier. :lol2:

Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Agreed. I'd also say that if this is your first venture into dart frogs there are much easier ones to start with than any of the ranitomeya. They're stupid fast, very small and can be a lot of work. : victory: Heck I find my pumilio easier. :lol2:
> 
> Ade


I second that, they are very fast. I currently have a couple of banded imis froglets in a grow out tub and usually end up with one half way up my arm every time I take the lid off. I have far less trouble with my black jeans and they make my tincs look padestrian. If you do go that route the 40x40x60 viv is fine but I agree with Stu start with a pair. Have you thought about starting off with something a little bigger and easier?


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