# IHS Breeders Meeting ? statement of facts



## Chris Newman

*IHS Breeders Meeting – statement of facts*

Dear all,

As you are all know doubt aware a matter has arisen in respect of the IHS Breeders Meeting scheduled to take place this Sunday the 17th of June 2012. The information contained within the Animal Protection Agency Press Release dated the 12th of June is, as one would expect, not entirely accurate. 

Notwithstanding this there are significant issues with the event, below is an exchange of correspondence between myself and the chief executive of Doncaster Cultural Leisure Trust who operate the venue which I believe are self explanatory. 

The matter is now in the hands of our legal advisors and this will be in Court tomorrow [15th of June]. I shall post further information as it becomes available. If you are planning to attend the show on the Sunday then please watch this space for updates. Those attending in a formal capacity will be informed by phone of developments as soon as they are known.

The FBH Conference on the Saturday will not be affected.

Thank you for your continuing support.

Regards,
Chris Newman
Chairman Federation of British Herpetologists 




*Open Letter to*: 

*Michael Hart*, Chief Executive - Doncaster Cultural Leisure Trust
cc *Jo Miller*,Chief Executive - Doncaster Borough Council 


*Re: International Herpetological Breeders Meeting 17th of June 2012*


Dear Michael,

Further to the discussions that took place at the meeting on the 12th of June and our subsequent telephone conversations, regrettably we cannot concede to your demands that no animals be sold on the day. As chairman of the Federation of British Herpetologists it is incumbent upon me to represent the best interests of the herpetological community.

The Breeders’ Meeting, at which breeders have always sold and exchanged surplus breeding stock, has taken place at the Dome since 2004. No changes in legislation have been enacted since that time other than the proposed removal of Section 2 of the Pet Animals Act 1951 under the Animal Welfare Act. As you know this proposed change in legislation would be welcomed by the FBH as it would permit such events to be licensed, a position also supported by Doncaster Borough Council in the past.

Doncaster Cultural Leisure Trust has entered into a binding contract with the International Herpetological Society to provide facilities for the Society to hold its Breeders’ Meeting on the 17th of June 2012, as it has for the past eight years, and there is no reason why this year’s event cannot proceed as it has previously. It is our understanding that these Breeders Meetings are fully compliant with the law and we are, therefore, unable to change the remit of the event in particular at such short notice. We believe it is unnecessary, unreasonable and disproportionate. 

It would be easy for us to agree that no animals would be sold on the day and then to dishonour that commitment. But, unlike our opponents, we operate with the highest levels of integrity and such an action is ethically untenable. It is our firm belief that Breeders’ Meetings are fully compliant with the Pet Animals Act 1951 as amended. I would suggest this view is supported by Doncaster Borough Council who have approved the events over the past eight years and have even attended in an official capacity. In 2010 Doncaster Borough Council sought a barrister’s opinion on the matter and took no action having found no cause for legal or ethical complaint them. 

The most logical course of action for all parties is for the event to take place normally and for the authorities take remedial action if they believe any transgressions of the law have taken place. 

In our opinion it is patently clear from the meeting on the 12th that Doncaster Borough Council are endeavoring to make Doncaster Cultural Leisure Trust the scapegoats and close a lawful event simply because the Council have received criticism from a vocal minority. I am aware of the contractual issues between Doncaster Borough Council and Doncaster Cultural Leisure Trust, but I trust that all in authority would act with integrity and not seek punitive retribution should the Trust honor its legal commitments. This behavior would be entirely unethical. 

If Doncaster Cultural Leisure Trust breaches its contract with the International Herpetological Society and cancels or alters the hire of the facilities for its Breeders’ Meeting on the 17th of June, we have no choice but to take immediate civil litigation to enforce the terms of the contract. We therefore require that you confirm in writing by no later than 15:00hrs today (14th June), the decision of Doncaster Cultural Leisure Trust in respect of this matter.

We fully appreciate and regret the pressure that you are under and we were not aware until Tuesday that you had received death threats for allowing the event to run in the past. Organisers and members from the International Herpetological Society have also been threatened and over the past ten years my own home has been attacked six times by fanatical Animal Rights Activists. 

We cannot and should not, however, allow threats from a vocal minority to affect the thousands of people who enjoy these events and we must take whatever action is necessary to allow the IHS Breeders’ Meeting to take place this weekend. 

Yours sincerely,


Chris Newman
Chairman Federation of British Herpetologists

14th June, 2012 @ 12:00hrs 


cc Knights Solicitors
Rt. Hon Rosie Winterton MP, Doncaster Central
Rt. Hon Ed Miliband MP, Doncaster North
Rt. Hon Caroline Flint MP, Don Valley
Peter Davies, Mayor of Doncaster


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## Chris Newman

Response to letter received 14th June, 12.28pm

*Re: International Herpetological Breeder’s Meeting, 17th June 2012*

Dear Chris

Thank you for your letter received today regarding to the International Herpetological Society’s position in relation to the operation of the event scheduled to take place on Sunday 17th June 2012.

As you aware Doncaster Culture and Leisure Trust met with yourself and Richard Brook to request that the event on Sunday took place with a ruling of no sale of any animal. We were clear that if this request could not be met, Doncaster Culture and Leisure Trust would be unable to allow the event to take place at a venue under the Trust portfolio.

Further to the position outlined in the letter by the International Herpetological Society, it is with regret that I must inform you that Doncaster Culture Leisure Trust will not allow the event to take place at The Dome. 
This decision is in relation to the event scheduled on Sunday 17th June 2012.

I would be grateful if you could inform me of your intentions towards the Conference and Function scheduled to take place at The Dome on Saturday 16th June 2012.

Also at the meeting we discussed that once a decision was reached we would issue a joint press release, can I confirm that you still wish to do this? And if so could you please contact me with regard to the proposed wording.

Yours sincerely



Michael Hart
Chief Executive
Doncaster Culture and Leisure Trust











*Open Letter to*: 

*Michael Hart*, Chief Executive - Doncaster Cultural Leisure Trust
cc *Jo Miller*,Chief Executive - Doncaster Borough Council 


*Re: International Herpetological Breeders Meeting 17th of June 2012*


Dear Michael,

I am afraid that the DCLT’s action is a flagrant breach of its contract with Richard Brook and IHS. Richard and the IHS have been given insufficient notice of all this and have had no time to mitigate their losses. The only sensible option is to issue proceedings and these will be put in hand as soon as possible. Samuel Laughton of Counsel has been retained and our Solicitors will instruct him shortly. The plan is to issue on an emergency basis in the Chancery Division in London with a hearing tomorrow. If DCLT wishes to attend and wishes to be represented you need to answer Matthew Knight’s letter/fax of even date and indicate who is going to deal with this for DCLT. In the absence of any of this our solicitors will issue without formal notice and will go ahead with the injunction application on an exparte basis ie without DCLT present or represented. 

Obviously it would be better if DCLT was present and was represented and so I suggest that you organise your solicitors to defend these proceedings and to line Counsel up to represent DCLT in the Chancery Division tomorrow. 

As regards to the conference, arrangements for this remain unchanged.

Yours sincerely,


Chris Newman
Chairman Federation of British Herpetologists

14th June, 2012 @ 15:51hrs


cc Knights Solicitors
Rt. Hon Rosie Winterton MP, Doncaster Central
Rt. Hon Ed Miliband MP, Doncaster North
Rt. Hon Caroline Flint MP, Don Valley
Peter Davies, Mayor of Doncaster


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## dr del

Hi,

An entirely reasonable response to their breach of contract.

I remember the days when we used to arrest people making death threats not bowing to their pressure.

I wish you well in this and would ask if there is anything we, as individual members of the hobby, can do to help?


dr del


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## linzii

I agree with the doc, anything we can do to help let us know.


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## reptile_man_08

That's ridiculous. I feel sorry for Chris! 
Edit: Oops, posted in the wrong thread, but yeah.


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## reptilehotel

I hope that this can all by sorted tomorrow, it seams unfair for the show to have restrictions implemented last minute. It was always a matter of time before the council gave way to the massive pressure that the APA (Animal rights terrorists!) have gave to the council and the event its self in a desperate attempt to stop the trading of surplus livestock at these events. 

I look forward hearing the news tomorrow do we know what time the hearing will be ? I am sure i can speak for plenty, we will all be glad to know when all the fuss and ridiculous speculation is over and have a statement of facts. 

I hope that this does put anyone off from attending the show on sunday and showing support for the hobby.


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## miss_ferret

what the above have said, anything i/we can do to help, just say. been looking forward to donny for ages


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## chris25

i hope people will still make the effort to go to donny whatever the outcome of the hearing.
show that as hobbyists,breeders,businesses or enthusiasts that we will not be driven away.

id like to know what the relevant authorities are doing about the recieved death threats and other threats issued by the APA.
I hope that the relevant action is being taken agaisnt the person(s) concerned or if not against the APA for being the voice of any anonymous threats.
to the same end i hope the APA make a statement condeming any such threats.

lastly...we know the APA WILL BE READING THIS, RATHER THAN SKULK IN SHADOWS MAKING THREATS,IDLE OR OTHERWISE HAVE THE COURAGE OF YOUR CONVICTIONS AND STAND UP FOR YOUR BELIEFS...COME AND POST HERE JUSTIFYING YOUR MALICIOUS BEHAVIOUR...I VERY MUCH DOUBT THAT AS A GROUP OR SINGUALLY YOU HAVE THE NERVE.


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## penfold

good luck guys:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


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## Kev132

Thanks chris, will keep an eye here, I really do wish some of these mindless idiots would go and fall off a cliff, just like lemmings :whistling2:


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## Kelfezond

chris25 said:


> i hope people will still make the effort to go to donny whatever the outcome of the hearing.
> show that as hobbyists,breeders,businesses or enthusiasts that we will not be driven away.


I might be misunderstanding this but is the doncaster dome at least a bit to blame for this by caving into terrorism and screwing us all over by these last minute changes to animal sales? Im not sure why we should show support to that by filling their venue? 
Correct me if I'm wrong only started reading all this today. 


Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2


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## MustLoveSnails

Kelfezond said:


> I might be misunderstanding this but is the doncaster dome at least a bit to blame for this by caving into terrorism and screwing us all over by these last minute changes to animal sales? Im not sure why we should show support to that by filling their venue?
> Correct me if I'm wrong only started reading all this today.


If people don't go to the meeting in whatever form it takes then the APA know they have won. If people still go its a show of unity and defiance. Keepers have to stand together because at the moment not enough of us are, and it just helps their stupid crusade go through far too easily.


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## Kelfezond

MustLoveSnails said:


> If people don't go to the meeting in whatever form it takes then the APA know they have won. If people still go its a show of unity and defiance. Keepers have to stand together because at the moment not enough of us are, and it just helps their stupid crusade go through far too easily.


This is true. Though it leaves a bitter taste knowing we're paying Doncaster to stay united. 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2


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## racingbrett

Would i be right in assuming that while the idea is that no animals can be sold (a fact that is going to emergency court as it is been suggested in breech of contract and with no legal backing) but they can be displayed?

If animals can still be displayed but not sold then they can be used to display stock that the breeder has for sale, albeit not for sale on the day, prices for available animals can be displayed and interest in the purchase of these animals can be expressed but no money can exchanged on the day.

if u catch my drift.

Also what would the deal be on animals that have already been sold and are to be collected on the day, as i see it the sale has already been completed so the animal has not actually been sold at the meet.


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## badger13

The problem as far as i can see is that reptile breeders are an easy target for these mindless faceless muppets. Will the Local Authority be banning the Doncaster bloodstock sales? as horse racing is cruel. And horses die whilst racing. I think not


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## Salazare Slytherin

racingbrett said:


> Would i be right in assuming that while the idea is that no animals can be sold (a fact that is going to emergency court as it is been suggested in breech of contract and with no legal backing) but they can be displayed?
> 
> If animals can still be displayed but not sold then they can be used to display stock that the breeder has for sale, albeit not for sale on the day, prices for available animals can be displayed and interest in the purchase of these animals can be expressed but no money can exchanged on the day.
> 
> if u catch my drift.
> 
> Also what would the deal be on animals that have already been sold and *are to be collected on the day, as i see it the sale has already been completed so the animal has not actually been sold at the meet*.


Nothing, the exchange has already been done, well before the event took place, so that should have nothing to do with it I would think.


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## stokesy

this shows - we need to make sure we support our hobby! make sure our voice is heard in a non threatening way, the council and the dome need to know there may be a violent minority against reptille keeping but there are far more of us, they are letting down.

Not sure what the best way for this is......


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## chris25

Kelfezond said:


> This is true. Though it leaves a bitter taste knowing we're paying Doncaster to stay united.
> 
> Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2


i get your point about the dome being partially responsible,but i do have some sympathy with them in so much as there are fanatical animal rights supporters that have carried out attacks on people they believe to be supporting alledged 'animal abuse'...it must be a consideration that individuals or the venue may be targeted.

as for paying them....i say if we attend then we shouldnt purchase anything from the dome,including beer,food or anything else it thinks we are fit to buy.


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## chris25

stokesy said:


> this shows - we need to make sure we support our hobby! make sure our voice is heard in a non threatening way, the council and the dome need to know there may be a violent minority against reptille keeping but there are far more of us, they are letting down.
> 
> Not sure what the best way for this is......


agreed...if the if show is indeed subject to restrictions then maybe the ihs/fbh can suggest a suitable way for which the reptile community can make that voice heard on the day


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## PrincessStegosaurus

Meh, maybe we should just all meet in a service station and exchange our reptiles there +shrug+ 

Effin' animal rights activists. Maybe one day they'll get a real job and quit bugging us honest folk.


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## a33272

I think this is the concerning bit.


"As you aware Doncaster Culture and Leisure Trust met with yourself and Richard Brook to request that the event on Sunday took place with a ruling of no sale of any animal. We were clear that if this request could not be met, Doncaster Culture and Leisure Trust would be unable to allow the event to take place at a venue under the Trust portfolio.

Further to the position outlined in the letter by the International Herpetological Society, it is with regret that I must inform you that Doncaster Culture Leisure Trust will not allow the event to take place at The Dome. This decision is in relation to the event scheduled on Sunday 17th June 2012."


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## Jazzy B Bunny

This whole thing is ridiculous! The members of the APA clearly have no lives! I could almost understand if it was the trading of wild caught animals, but it's all CB stuff which is a very good thing! 
Sounds like they just want something to moan about, I hope none of them own pets! These sorts would rather kill another human than a cockroach... That's how mental they are! 

Good luck with it! If I lived closer I'd be there on Sunday in support for our hobby!


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## Ayra

Animal Protection Agency

Is it just me or is the second paragraph of this suggesting that they're collecting the details of stall holders? If so, why?


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## stokesy

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> These sorts would rather kill another human than a cockroach... That's how mental they are!
> !


yeah the kind that thought releasing american fur minks was a good idea - that'll show our native wildlife :bash:


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## Sweetcorn

Ayra said:


> Animal Protection Agency
> 
> Is it just me or is the second paragraph of this suggesting that they're collecting the details of stall holders? If so, why?


To report them to the Tax man!!!


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## stevenrudge

l'm sorry to have to say this and l've said this before,we are wasting our time with show's or breeders meeting where we can sell livestock,the game is over and they have won this battle,the sooner we can get our heads round this and move on the better,threatening to take the council to court is a joke that's going no where.
Ladys and Gentleman its time to forget about this and move on


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## andy007

stevenrudge said:


> l'm sorry to have to say this and l've said this before,we are wasting our time with show's or breeders meeting where we can sell livestock,the game is over and they have won this battle,the sooner we can get our heads round this and move on the better,threatening to take the council to court is a joke that's going no where.
> Ladys and Gentleman its time to forget about this and move on


They aren't taking the council to court. They are taking the Venue to court.


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## inkyjoe

we could find out where the APA hold there meetings and threaten the venues with violent attacks? :lol2:


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## Janine00

dr del said:


> Hi,
> An entirely reasonable response to their breach of contract.
> 
> I remember the days when we used to arrest people making death threats not bowing to their pressure.
> 
> I wish you well in this and would ask if there is anything we, as individual members of the hobby, can do to help?
> dr del





linzii said:


> I agree with the doc, anything we can do to help let us know.





reptilehotel said:


> I hope that this can all by sorted tomorrow, it seams unfair for the show to have restrictions implemented last minute. It was always a matter of time before the council gave way to the massive pressure that the APA (Animal rights terrorists!) have gave to the council and the event its self in a desperate attempt to stop the trading of surplus livestock at these events.
> 
> I look forward hearing the news tomorrow do we know what time the hearing will be ? I am sure i can speak for plenty, we will all be glad to know when all the fuss and ridiculous speculation is over and have a statement of facts.
> 
> I hope that this does put anyone off from attending the show on sunday and showing support for the hobby.





miss_ferret said:


> what the above have said, anything i/we can do to help, just say. been looking forward to donny for ages


I too, also feel as all of you do..... AND it is my sincerest hope that not only yourselves and and other good hearted people like you PLUS ALL who have had a lot to say over the shocking state of affairs over the last few day will be prepared if necessary to put your hand in your pocket to make a very small contribution to become a member of ANY of the societies who are putting their money where their mouthes are over the next couple of days in order for the IHS and FBH to be able to try their best to fight for this on behalf of all of us.

As I see it, this is likely to be the start of the way forward, not the end battle - lord help us ~ and particularly bless the people who front the FBH and IHS and do most of this work in a voluntary capacity. : victory:


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## trogdorable

stevenrudge said:


> l'm sorry to have to say this and l've said this before,we are wasting our time with show's or breeders meeting where we can sell livestock,the game is over and they have won this battle,the sooner we can get our heads round this and move on the better,threatening to take the council to court is a joke that's going no where.
> Ladys and Gentleman its time to forget about this and move on



i hope its only a minority of people in this hobby who have this defeatest attitude =/ otherwise we may aswell just give up and accept our hobby is over. what makes you think they are going to stop their assualt at these shows?


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## truncheon1973

trogdorable said:


> i hope its only a minority of people in this hobby who have this defeatest attitude =/ otherwise we may aswell just give up and accept our hobby is over. what makes you think they are going to stop their assualt at these shows?


 
well said!!

if they do succeed in cancelling all shows youre right they def wont stop there, it will just move onto something else!!


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## stevenrudge

andy007 said:


> They aren't taking the council to court. They are taking the Venue to court.


either way its a joke, time to move on


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## DaveM

stevenrudge said:


> either way its a joke, time to move on


No, not time to move on, just forgetting it and moving on, and for one of the biggest shows at that, will give them even more incentive to press on and target everything else even more freely


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## MustLoveSnails

stevenrudge said:


> either way its a joke, time to move on




Will you say that when its the shops they are threatening and doing their best to get shut down one by one? Or when they start spreading more of their propaganda about exotics keepers, turning more and more people against us and doing their uttermost to make it impossible to have the animals we love? Perhaps we should wait and see if one of their more mentally unstable members decides to carry out some form of violence?


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## Ayra

Sweetcorn said:


> To report them to the Tax man!!!


So am I right in saying that their argument is to do with money and has nothing to do with the welfare of the animals? In which case they shouldn't be involved because it has absolutely nothing to do with them.


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## Row'n'Bud

Hold a major show over here in northern ireland.....we are currently organising a club for reptile and exotic mammal keepers and so the club could host the show .
Love to see the APA come over here with their petty threats and not many councils over here would bow down to their threats either as we're more than used to it ....lol
Just a quick plane flight or boat journey and you'd be here so not much compared to say travelling to Hamm or Houten folks


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## PhillyDee

As a new ihs member I can assure them no matter the outcome I will continue to be a member no matter the outcome. 

To the dome, what exactly has changed in the last few days? Are you really going to bow to home grown terrorism? Why exactly are these threats not being referred to the police?

Surely the papers would be interested?


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## trogdorable

stevenrudge said:


> either way its a joke, time to move on


your attitude suggests you dont much care for the hobby in the first place.

never the less, you just sit back and relax and watch it crumble around you whilst others fight tooth and nail for it.


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## truncheon1973

stevenrudge said:


> either way its a joke, time to move on


an answer like that wont help anyone!!:bash:

if everyone had your attitude there would be no hobby!!


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## SnakeBreeder

The government ( all sides ) have said for several years, in their menifesto's that they intend to stop the keeping of exotic animals in the UK.
I'm sorry to say it looks as if the Dome, as an IHS venue, to sell surplus captive bred animals looks like it is coming to an end.
I dont think the two are unrelated.
I never really agreed, in principle, with WC animals beeing available for sale there, as these were breeders meeting.
We do not have a* legal right* to keep any animals in the UK, as far as I'm aware.
Government can, if it passes regulation or law, restrict the activities of it population.
Unfortunatly I can see a time when the keeping of pets will be restricted or licensed. ( You used to need a license to keep a dog in the UK )
Once regulation is impossed only those who are determined and (maybe) well financed will be able to continue their hobby.


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## kenneally1

Why can the " sell a pencil and get a free snake, idea " not be used?


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## andy007

stevenrudge said:


> either way its a joke, time to move on


Aren't you just full of joy. So instructing Barristers and arranging an emergency court sitting is a joke?


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## stevenrudge

DaveM said:


> No, not time to move on, just forgetting it and moving on, and for one of the biggest shows at that, will give them even more incentive to press on and target everything else even more freely


A poor emotional response,it was always on borrowed time,the antis are holding all the cards,l've thought for a long time that the (shows)where coursing the hobby more harm than good,the hobby is bigger than the shows but you would not think that by the way some people act, on these forums,like l've said before we had a good vibrant hobby before the shows,we were never going to win this so why damage our hobby for a lost course?l'm as upset as the rest but l can see a lost course when l see one, and TBH l really think that far from damaging us,it can strengthen us,its their biggest weapon that they've used against us,to stop the shows,let the shows go,and there weapons gone


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## mispentyouth

Even if the show gets cancelled i think we should all attend anyway . If a few big issue sellers with dogs on string can stop the show im sure a few thousand reptile keepers standing up for there hobby can at the very least show them we wont back down .


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## trogdorable

these people dont believe exotics should be kept full stop. them succeding in this im sure will encourage them to go further.


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## Ameliaxx

this makes me so sad  i was so looking forward to doncaster, i will still be going sales or no sales as ive reserved something and i will continue to support the hoby will you be allowed to buy equipment? and to the guy who said move on really? dont you see how this is a ovbousily the beginning on a very slippery slope, i cant believe i just got into this hobby and it could soon be over  we need to do something public and very legal (so the APA dont have a way of wriggerling out) like an advert on tv or a newspaper advert


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## truncheon1973

stevenrudge said:


> A poor emotional response,it was always on borrowed time,the antis are holding all the cards,l've thought for a long time that the (shows)where coursing the hobby more harm than good,the hobby is bigger than the shows but you would not think that by the way some people act, on these forums,like l've said before we had a good vibrant hobby before the shows,we were never going to win this so why damage our hobby for a lost course?l'm as upset as the rest but l can see a lost course when l see one, and TBH l really think that far from damaging us,it can strengthen us,its their biggest weapon that they've used against us,to stop the shows,let the shows go,and there weapons gone


you dont seem to understand

if the shows get stopped because of them what then?

do you think they will just stop and let us enjoy our reps and breeding etc?

no they wont they will just attack us more ie attacking shops and eventually keeping any reps at all!!

did you just think they would stop?


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## Cleggs

How long and how far are you all going to go before the hobby Is gone people like steven rudge and apa will be more than happy to ban the lot.we need to band together to fight this and don't see why those interested in the hobby don't....stop arguing with each other and work together I am going to joine ihb as i see they are the only ones doing the fighting


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## Guy_Brooks

We all just need to stand together (including rival forums) and fight for our hobby and don't let the spoilt sports get the better of us and let them take over! If they did have a bomb or set the place on fire I would still go.... Least I died with/doing what I loved _(Yeah I got dramatical :whistling2_


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## stevenrudge

andy007 said:


> Aren't you just full of joy. So instructing Barristers and arranging an emergency court sitting is a joke?


think this through,you go to court,you might win and get one more show,you will never get another with them,and with that info who the hell else would ever take this on knowing that A.the organisers will get agro from the antis,B if they gave us a legal contract and they get agro from the antis we would try and take them to court,were :censor: either way and nobody would touch us
and no l'm not (full of joy):censor: l'm very sad not to be going but there's not much we can do,we can get all emotional and start saying silly things to each other, but we have to take the emotion out of this and move on


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## mispentyouth

Personally i think that if this show gets stopped weve had it , they already stopped one show last month this cant happen again or we can kiss the hobby goodbye . They wont stop until its banned altogether . Yes its a kick in the guts if we cant buy or sell at the show but like others have said there a ways around that , but now more than ever we need to stand together in numbers . For those who have changed there minds on attending now you might aswell sell up as it will happen soon enough if we back down


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## truncheon1973

stevenrudge said:


> think this through,you go to court,you might win and get one more show,you will never get another with them,and with that info who the hell else would ever take this on knowing that A.the organisers will get agro from the antis,B if they gave us a legal contract and they get agro from the antis we would try and take them to court,were :censor: either way and nobody would touch us
> and no l'm not (full of joy):censor: l'm very sad not to be going but there's not much we can do,we can get all emotional and start saying silly things to each other, but we have to take the emotion out of this and move on


so you want us all to sit back and watch them destroy our hobby?

yes they might win the fight with the shows but what then?

they will eventually go all out for stopping us keeping all reps permanantly!!

if we take your attitude thats exactly what will happen

if youre not actually apa yourself wopuld you be happy if it carries on and they stop you from having your reps????


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## Guy_Brooks

We should all go to their meetings with says saying

Allow
People
Animals

I've said it once I'll say it again!


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## SnakeBreeder

Come on Guys.
The shows are only a very small part of the hobby.
If the shows stop there are still some very good shops and private breeders.
The shows were, and still are, good places to meet breeders and view animals, but they are not the be all and end all of the hobby.

However if this is just a small part of a bigger plan to stop the keeping of exotics in the UK, as put forward in may political manefesto's, then we may have a lot more to worry about.


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## LauraBrooks17

My OH just told me about this, It's appauling. We all need to do what we can stop the APA getting the better of us even if it costs and arm and a leg.


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## LFBP-NEIL

I have to say I think stevens bang on the money, i posted this elsewhere today..

As much as i agree we need to stand firm against this real threat....

On the other side of the coin, have you seen the video of the show the APA have posted on their facebook page? Now we all know that those are captive bred animals and not really under any harm but to the untrained eye that looks like nothing more than a jumble sale with animals, is this really how we wish to be portrayed? or has this style of meeting had its day? do we need to have these meet ups to sell animals in the day and age of the internet?

Are we saying we must have these shows just because we dont want someone else telling us we cant? 

The other point they are really hammering after at the moment is people "trading" animals rather than it being a breeders meet up selling excess, involving HMRC, - Has the hobby not been setting itself up for this over the last ten years? people who breed and sell reptiles no longer call themselves "joe bloggs" i.e by their own name, everyone wants to do the american thing and joe bloggs has become "JB Reptile Morphs" with website, business cards, classified ads, facebook page and spare room full of reptiles to boot. I can no longer differentiate between who is a trader and who is a "hobbyist" anymore so how is joe public and how are your going to persuade the HMRC that you are actually doing it "not for profit" when you set yourselves up and present yourselves as business's?

Dont flame me, just putting it out there!

We may win this battle, but lets get real, if the legal precedent gets set tomorrow who on earth is ever going to take that gig on again knowing that if they sign a contract on a breeders meet they will have two outcomes 1, a load of grief from the animal rights nutters or 2, a huge high court bill, I wouldnt entertain it. 

I am not naive, I know that once they stop the shows the next target is pet shops, they have already started making noises in that direction.


----------



## hogboy

*This'll help -)

Support the FBH
Donate here
*Federation of British Herpetologists


----------



## sazzle

they do this every year, and they will continue to do so. We can keep fighting and fighting but without enough people supporting the IHS etc there's only so much that can be done x


----------



## sazzle

hogboy said:


> *This'll help -)
> 
> Support the FBH
> Donate here
> *Federation of British Herpetologists


the IHS have already had £30 off of me to pay for a show i can't attend :lol2: (just to lighten the mood)


----------



## ophidianman

mispentyouth said:


> Even if the show gets cancelled i think we should all attend anyway . If a few big issue sellers with dogs on string can stop the show im sure a few thousand reptile keepers standing up for there hobby can at the very least show them we wont back down .


Unfortunately they're not 'big issue sellers' they're well paid and have financial backing as well as being affiliated with PETA who have a very large fund for just this sort of campaign. I would imagine a much larger fund than the FBH has to fight them.


----------



## ian kerr

stevenrudge said:


> l'm sorry to have to say this and l've said this before,we are wasting our time with show's or breeders meeting where we can sell livestock,the game is over and they have won this battle,the sooner we can get our heads round this and move on the better,threatening to take the council to court is a joke that's going no where.
> Ladys and Gentleman its time to forget about this and move on


see this is why id like a UNLIKE as well as a like


----------



## inkyjoe

LFBP-NEIL said:


> I have to say I think stevens bang on the money, i posted this elsewhere today..
> 
> As much as i agree we need to stand firm against this real threat....
> 
> On the other side of the coin, have you seen the video of the show the APA have posted on their facebook page? Now we all know that those are captive bred animals and not really under any harm but to the untrained eye that looks like nothing more than a jumble sale with animals, is this really how we wish to be portrayed? or has this style of meeting had its day? do we need to have these meet ups to sell animals in the day and age of the internet?
> 
> Are we saying we must have these shows just because we dont want someone else telling us we cant?
> 
> The other point they are really hammering after at the moment is people "trading" animals rather than it being a breeders meet up selling excess, involving HMRC, - Has the hobby not been setting itself up for this over the last ten years? people who breed and sell reptiles no longer call themselves "joe bloggs" i.e by their own name, everyone wants to do the american thing and joe bloggs has become "JB Reptile Morphs" with website, business cards, classified ads, facebook page and spare room full of reptiles to boot. I can no longer differentiate between who is a trader and who is a "hobbyist" anymore so how is joe public and how are your going to persuade the HMRC that you are actually doing it "not for profit" when you set yourselves up and present yourselves as business's?
> 
> Dont flame me, just putting it out there!
> 
> We may win this battle, but lets get real, if the legal precedent gets set tomorrow who on earth is ever going to take that gig on again knowing that if they sign a contract on a breeders meet they will have two outcomes 1, a load of grief from the animal rights nutters or 2, a huge high court bill, I wouldnt entertain it.
> 
> I am not naive, I know that once they stop the shows the next target is pet shops, they have already started making noises in that direction.


a bleak, but very valid point.

I am about to sign up to the IHS


----------



## stevenrudge

SnakeBreeder said:


> Come on Guys.
> The shows are only a very small part of the hobby.
> If the shows stop there are still some very good shops and private breeders.
> The shows were, and still are, good places to meet breeders and view animals, but they are not the be all and end all of the hobby.
> 
> However if this is just a small part of a bigger plan to stop the keeping of exotics in the UK, as put forward in may political manefesto's, then we may have a lot more to worry about.


 stopping shows is one thing,very easy,getting a hobby band is something else,SnakeBreeder is bang on,some of us go back,l remember people telling me that keeping herp's would be band,and that was in the 70's,yes we have to be careful but stopping the shows will change nothing for us,we move on,not back to how it was before the shows because now we have the www/internet,which has had a far bigger impact on our hobby than all the shows in the world put together


----------



## andy007

What about using agricultural venues as opposed to council owned?? These type of venues deal with anti's all the time.


----------



## bothrops

inkyjoe said:


> we could find out where the APA hold there meetings and threaten the venues with violent attacks? :lol2:


It is public information that they operate out of a small office in Brighton. However, it is vitally important that we maintain the 'high ground'. If we stoop to their despicable, unethical, bully-boy tactics, we're as bad as they are.



stevenrudge said:


> either way its a joke, time to move on


The link for the APA website is on this thread. Feel free to follow it and join up. Calling this situation a 'joke' is a direct insult to the people that are working incredibly hard to fight for your right to keep the animals you do. You owe them an apology.



stevenrudge said:


> think this through,you go to court,you might win and get one more show,you will never get another with them,and with that info who the hell else would ever take this on knowing that A.the organisers will get agro from the antis,B if they gave us a legal contract and they get agro from the antis we would try and take them to court,were :censor: either way and nobody would touch us
> and no l'm not (full of joy):censor: l'm very sad not to be going but there's not much we can do,we can get all emotional and start saying silly things to each other, but we have to take the emotion out of this and move on


Alternatively, a court ruling stating that these breeders meetings act wholly within the law as it stands will set a precedent and the APA will not have a single leg to stand on. Their weak foundations will be destroyed and we can then concentrate on the heavy pursuit of those members of their cause that are terrorists if/when they continue to threaten the lives of other human beings in the name of their cause.


----------



## ophidianman

truncheon1973 said:


> you dont seem to understand
> 
> if the shows get stopped because of them what then?
> 
> do you think they will just stop and let us enjoy our reps and breeding etc?
> 
> no they wont they will just attack us more ie attacking shops and eventually keeping any reps at all!!
> 
> did you just think they would stop?


They went back into the woodwork 12 years ago when they got the shows stopped in England. A lot of the younger members here won't remember what it was like back then. Shows getting cancelled the night before so people were turning up to a locked and empty venue. Secret venues where the details were only given out the day before. Tis a real case of deja vu. They (antis) are sadly far better organised than we are .


----------



## Janine00

ophidianman said:


> Unfortunately they're not 'big issue sellers' they're well paid and have financial backing as well as being affiliated with PETA who have a very large fund for just this sort of campaign. I would imagine a much larger fund than the FBH has to fight them.


:2thumb:One of THE most pertinent points in this discussion as it has gone on past the first few pages.... PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTHS ARE..... JOIN either a Society or Association that is affiliated with the FBH or join the FBH itself..... or better.... Join both!! From all of the responses on here it is the least we can ALL do! Then we have every right to attend meetings and put forward our points for consideration! : victory::lol2:


----------



## Tombo46

bothrops said:


> Alternatively, a court ruling stating that these breeders meetings act wholly within the law as it stands will set a precedent and the APA will not have a single leg to stand on. Their weak foundations will be destroyed and we can then concentrate on the heavy pursuit of those members of their cause that are terrorists if/when they continue to threaten the lives of other human beings in the name of their cause.


While I am gutted that Donny "may" be cancelled I am glad to see the matter going to court. Maybe we can once and for all find out who's right and who's wrong and indeed what side of the law we are on. They have been using this "law" against us for far too long now. A final, unquestionable verdict will do us good. In the long run this could prove to be a blessing in disguise.

Best of luck to the IHS and FBH and thank you for your efforts.


----------



## truncheon1973

ophidianman said:


> They went back into the woodwork 12 years ago when they got the shows stopped in England. A lot of the younger members here won't remember what it was like back then. Shows getting cancelled the night before so people were turning up to a locked and empty venue. Secret venues where the details were only given out the day before. Tis a real case of deja vu. They (antis) are sadly far better organised than we are .


they might have done then but hoping that they will do it again this time and not doing anything else is a dangerous thing to do

we need to be prepared so that if they keep going then were in a position to do something!


----------



## ian kerr

ophidianman said:


> They went back into the woodwork 12 years ago when they got the shows stopped in England. A lot of the younger members here won't remember what it was like back then. Shows getting cancelled the night before so people were turning up to a locked and empty venue. Secret venues where the details were only given out the day before. Tis a real case of deja vu. They (antis) are sadly far better organised than we are .


hopefully this is now the time to organse dude!!

i remember the ihs shows at warsall

cant believe you "like" rudges comment mate???
i used to worship you as well!! lol


----------



## SnakeBreeder

LFBP-NEIL said:


> I have to say I think stevens bang on the money, i posted this elsewhere today..
> 
> As much as i agree we need to stand firm against this real threat....
> 
> On the other side of the coin, have you seen the video of the show the APA have posted on their facebook page? Now we all know that those are captive bred animals and not really under any harm but to the untrained eye that looks like nothing more than a jumble sale with animals, is this really how we wish to be portrayed? or has this style of meeting had its day? do we need to have these meet ups to sell animals in the day and age of the internet?
> 
> Are we saying we must have these shows just because we dont want someone else telling us we cant?
> 
> The other point they are really hammering after at the moment is people "trading" animals rather than it being a breeders meet up selling excess, involving HMRC, - Has the hobby not been setting itself up for this over the last ten years? people who breed and sell reptiles no longer call themselves "joe bloggs" i.e by their own name, everyone wants to do the american thing and joe bloggs has become "JB Reptile Morphs" with website, business cards, classified ads, facebook page and spare room full of reptiles to boot. I can no longer differentiate between who is a trader and who is a "hobbyist" anymore so how is joe public and how are your going to persuade the HMRC that you are actually doing it "not for profit" when you set yourselves up and present yourselves as business's?
> 
> Dont flame me, just putting it out there!
> 
> We may win this battle, but lets get real, if the legal precedent gets set tomorrow who on earth is ever going to take that gig on again knowing that if they sign a contract on a breeders meet they will have two outcomes 1, a load of grief from the animal rights nutters or 2, a huge high court bill, I wouldnt entertain it.
> 
> I am not naive, I know that once they stop the shows the next target is pet shops, they have already started making noises in that direction.


I think you are right. The hobby often shows it self in a very bad light. Both in peoples actions ( what they say on forums included) and behaviour.

I have been providing the tax man with detail of my reptile breeding for several years.
Anyone who breeds and does not declare it is simply asking for trouble in the long run.
As the tax man said to me about 10 years ago, and I'm paraphrasing here 
"It does not matter if you make a loss each year, the fact you receive money for animals you produce means you should declare it as income. Many business run at a loss but they still have to present accounts. "

I take on board what you say about no venue wanting to be involved in a show due to the trouble they will be potentionaly bringing on themselves or their employee's.


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## madaboutreptiles

Whatever the outcome tomorrow, we all need to take this as a bit of a wake up call.


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## stevenrudge

bothrops said:


> It is public information that they operate out of a small office in Brighton. However, it is vitally important that we maintain the 'high ground'. If we stoop to their despicable, unethical, bully-boy tactics, we're as bad as they are.
> 
> 
> 
> The link for the APA website is on this thread. Feel free to follow it and join up. Calling this situation a 'joke' is a direct insult to the people that are working incredibly hard to fight for your right to keep the animals you do. You owe them an apology.
> 
> 
> 
> Alternatively, a court ruling stating that these breeders meetings act wholly within the law as it stands will set a precedent and the APA will not have a single leg to stand on. Their weak foundations will be destroyed and we can then concentrate on the heavy pursuit of those members of their cause that are terrorists if/when they continue to threaten the lives of other human beings in the name of their cause.


and in the real world the show is still stopped,l owe no one an apology,l said that taking the organisers to court would be a joke for the reasons l've said in another reply.l do find your patronising attitude funny through,get over yourself


----------



## Fionab

SnakeBreeder said:


> The government ( all sides ) have said for several years, in their menifesto's that they intend to stop the keeping of exotic animals in the UK.
> I'm sorry to say it looks as if the Dome, as an IHS venue, to sell surplus captive bred animals looks like it is coming to an end.
> I dont think the two are unrelated.
> I never really agreed, in principle, with WC animals beeing available for sale there, as these were breeders meeting.
> We do not have a* legal right* to keep any animals in the UK, as far as I'm aware.
> Government can, if it passes regulation or law, restrict the activities of it population.
> Unfortunatly I can see a time when the keeping of pets will be restricted or licensed. ( You used to need a license to keep a dog in the UK )
> Once regulation is impossed only those who are determined and (maybe) well financed will be able to continue their hobby.


i personally would be happy with a license at least that way there would be a way of tracking animals AND irresponsible owners... and people would have guidelines laid down


----------



## Janine00

Do I get the booby prize for most use of the 'like' button now???.... my total must be getting up there skywards somewhere after all that I've liked on this post!!:whistling2:


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## trogdorable

stevenrudge said:


> and in the real world the show is still stopped,l owe no one an apology,l said that taking the organisers to court would be a joke for the reasons l've said in another reply.l do find your patronising attitude funny through,get over yourself


and i find your antogonising attitude outraging. try not to stoop to personal insults like a child.

i fully agree with bothrops. 
legally, the venue is in breach of contract. perfectly viable to take them to court.


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## Janine00

Fionab said:


> i personally would be happy with a license at least that way there would be a way of tracking animals AND irresponsible owners... and people would have guidelines laid down


Gov't already know's it would cost to much to issue and police... that's why they stopped licencing dogs... J


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## Fionab

hm clicking on the link to join FBH and im taking to a page that looks as if its written in russian


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## hogboy

Fionab said:


> hm clicking on the link to join FBH and im taking to a page that looks as if its written in russian


Try this one

*Support the FBH
Donate here
*Federation of British Herpetologists


----------



## Tarron

I would like to congratulate Chris and his associates for the efforts carried out so far, and wish them all the best in court tomorrow. You are an asset to us all.

As for them naysayers,

2012 - end of herp shows
2014 - end of herp keeping
2016 - end of exotic pets altogether
2019 - dog shows and cat shows attacked
???? - end of pet keeping

The apa will not stop in its current capacity.

Although, I have a theory, get rid of elaine and her mongrel, Clifford, and you will find group much more open to negotiation. The possibility of joint projects, conservation, stopping illegal trade. We just need to get through to them.


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## Cleggs

is it not possible to hold the venue on private land (bit like glastonbury) if its possible then surly its worth looking into


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## Janine00

I'm getting it up ok... try this link...

Paypal Membership(new)


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

trogdorable said:


> and i find your antogonising attitude outraging. try not to stoop to personal insults like a child.
> 
> i fully agree with bothrops.
> legally, the venue is in breach of contract. perfectly viable to take them to court.


 
^^this.

Although I think snake breeder has raised a good point too, animal rights will definately not stop there, infact it will make them more determined to move onto more damaging things.

Like I said on another thread, we could all learn alot from their tactics and I don't mean in a violent sort of way, they have all came together, organised and in numbers, we really do need to take this more seriously.


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## Janine00

Either way, the court case will give us a solid basis from which we will know what direction we will need to look to in the future. Hoping it goes our way, but if not this does not mean we have to lie down and roll over... : victory:


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## ladycelestria

It is very very easy to get round the issue of not being allowed to sell animals in the venue.

When people wish to purchase an animal they buy tokens (simply a piece if paper or plastic coin) they then exchange the tokens for the live animal, as the tokens themselves have no monetary value you arnt buying anything - then there is the good old "buy a pencil, get a free snake" ebay trick


----------



## inkyjoe

I just paid to join the IHS, and donated £30 to FBH, which I consider a tiny amount to save a hobby i have spent a small fortune on, but if all of us did that, perhaps these people who represent out hobby will be better supported to fight the APA in a legal and professional way (though how do we fight terrorism from a bunch of ill informed jumped up vegans(?)) and protect something we all love.
A member just posted this on my facebook page, which i think is a bloody good idea, and another way of fighting them without stooping to their level, and gaining allies in other fields of keeping animals...

The way to 'target' the APA IMO, is to go public with their agenda for all pet owners.....get the cat, dog, horse, etc owners on side and the APA will have a mammoth task on their hands

This is one of the fastest growing hobbies in the country, and i believe, this is one of the biggest/fastest forums on the internet, there are thousands of us! and if we can all do something to support each other and our hobby, even if it is just donating to one of the organisations which are fighting the APA hypocrites, then we are one step closer to making a stand and not letting them take this away from us.


----------



## PrincessStegosaurus

Cleggs said:


> is it not possible to hold the venue on private land (bit like glastonbury) if its possible then surly its worth looking into



Service station car park? Local park? Anything near Doncaster to send them an 'Eff you, we're still going to trade' Got to be something.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

ladycelestria said:


> It is very very easy to get round the issue of not being allowed to sell animals in the venue.
> 
> When people wish to purchase an animal they buy tokens (simply a piece if paper or plastic coin) they then exchange the tokens for the live animal, as the tokens themselves have no monetary value you arnt buying anything - then there is the good old "buy a pencil, get a free snake" ebay trick


I dont think thats how we should be portraying ourselves either sorry to say. The fact would remain animals would still be being traded no matter what form the tokens take, after all money is just tokens at the end of the day.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

PrincessStegosaurus said:


> Service station car park? Local park? Anything near Doncaster to send them an 'Eff you, we're still going to trade' Got to be something.


This is definitely how we dont want to be portrayed


----------



## ladycelestria

LFBP-NEIL said:


> I dont think thats how we should be portraying ourselves either sorry to say. The fact would remain animals would still be being traded no matter what form the tokens take, after all money is just tokens at the end of the day.


lol better that than nothing at all - its how live action roleplay events have got round the alcohol license laws for years - APA dont want us to buy animals then fine we wont buy animals, we will buy bit of paper instead


----------



## PrincessStegosaurus

Yeah, true.. gah. Just frustrating that a bunch of corporate :censor: hippies can win against regular pet keeping folk. 
Perhaps private land is the way forward? Anyone own a mansion or a farm? A warehouse?


----------



## Janine00

LFBP-NEIL said:


> I dont think thats how we should be portraying ourselves either sorry to say. The fact would remain animals would still be being traded no matter what form the tokens take, after all money is just tokens at the end of the day.


 
Agree.... why should we continue to have to try to find ways to jump through hoops.... obviously at this point the IHS and FBH have jointly decided the time is right to make a stand, so they are doing so.

They both get my vote, as do all the other organisations that are putting money into the FBH to support this action. : victory:


----------



## PhillyDee

ladycelestria said:


> lol better that than nothing at all - its how live action roleplay events have got round the alcohol license laws for years - APA dont want us to buy animals then fine we wont buy animals, we will buy bit of paper instead


Except larping does not have a group of terrorists trying to ban their entire hobby by clinging onto every single little speck of circumstancial 'evidence' that supports their twisted ideals.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

ladycelestria said:


> lol better that than nothing at all - its how live action roleplay events have got round the alcohol license laws for years - APA dont want us to buy animals then fine we wont buy animals, we will buy bit of paper instead


Thats ok as long as the pieces of paper are being "cashed" into livestock away from the venue i.e back at the breeders home but if all your doing is turning cash tokens (money) into livestock tokens (bits of paper) into livestock at the venue you are still selling livestock just using a different currency i.e bits of paper not cash.


----------



## miss_ferret

the trick to beating these animal rights activists is to get behind organisations such as the IHS and IBH. years ago they tried to shut down livestock auctions, they ran into the National Farmers Union (and a lot of angry farmers), an organisation with a lot of support and therefore money, guess who came out on top?


----------



## Janine00

PrincessStegosaurus said:


> Yeah, true.. gah. Just frustrating that a bunch of corporate :censor: hippies can win against regular pet keeping folk.
> Perhaps private land is the way forward? Anyone own a mansion or a farm? A warehouse?


By a motorway that connects with most area's of the country
With a good electric supply
With suitable parking facilities
With enough room that is under cover and not so small or low ceilings that we all melt as we go round, and enough space to be able to set the tables up so that people with wheelchairs and pushchairs stand some sort of chance of being able to get to see the displays
With suitable toilet facilities
With a snack bar
With disabled facilities



:gasp:
OMG.... what about the NEC???????

Hmmmm priced that up last year... minimum £10K per day... Breeders meetings do not bring in enough money to finance this! :blush: And I for one do not want to have to pay £50 entrance fee.....

Anyone know a tame Duke or Lord with above facilities going begging?? :lol2:


----------



## truncheon1973

inkyjoe said:


> I just paid to join the IHS, and donated £30 to FBH, which I consider a tiny amount to save a hobby i have spent a small fortune on, but if all of us did that, perhaps these people who represent out hobby will be better supported to fight the APA in a legal and professional way (though how do we fight terrorism from a bunch of ill informed jumped up vegans(?)) and protect something we all love.
> A member just posted this on my facebook page, which i think is a bloody good idea, and another way of fighting them without stooping to their level, and gaining allies in other fields of keeping animals...
> 
> The way to 'target' the APA IMO, is to go public with their agenda for all pet owners.....get the cat, dog, horse, etc owners on side and the APA will have a mammoth task on their hands
> 
> This is one of the fastest growing hobbies in the country, and i believe, this is one of the biggest/fastest forums on the internet, there are thousands of us! and if we can all do something to support each other and our hobby, even if it is just donating to one of the organisations which are fighting the APA hypocrites, then we are one step closer to making a stand and not letting them take this away from us.


thats an excellent idea!!

imagine the support if all the dog,cat,horse etc people realised it could happen to them what support we could get then!!:2thumb:


----------



## em_40

miss_ferret said:


> the trick to beating these animal rights activists is to get behind organisations such as the IHS and IBH. years ago they tried to shut down livestock auctions, they ran into the National Farmers Union (and a lot of angry farmers), an organisation with a lot of support and therefore money, guess who came out on top?


Funny, I asked about this on another thread... I thought that farmers were still able to do it. Lots of similarities

What we need are farmers on our side that are willing to rent a peice of their land for a day for the people to trade there


----------



## SnakeBreeder

ladycelestria said:


> It is very very easy to get round the issue of not being allowed to sell animals in the venue.
> 
> When people wish to purchase an animal they buy tokens (simply a piece if paper or plastic coin) they then exchange the tokens for the live animal, as the tokens themselves have no monetary value you arnt buying anything - then there is the good old "buy a pencil, get a free snake" ebay trick


I think you'll find this is still classed as trading.

I may be wrong but I think that for the legal sale or trade of pets to take place at the venue then someone needs a pet traders license.
You should maybe note that it is not the sellers at the show that need a pet traders license, it is the venue itself.
If they choose not to allow the sale of reptiles, in their venue, under their license, then, court case pending, I can't see the trading of animals continuing at that venue.


----------



## Lil_nightmare

Maybe its time to take the underhand tactics to the papers?

I wouldnt know where to start. But we cant just take this lying down, we need to make the general public aware! Ok so the majorty wont give a damn but surely i would be worth it for the ones that do stand up and take notice!


----------



## Richard Hanson

How sad, I can image this will be a significant landmark, I hope we can overcome it quickly before it sets a precedent.

What precisely is their beef with exotics in particular?

I saw their 'undercover' video, I must admit, the geckos in small tubs look distasteful to a newcomer, but I think most geckos end up in a pretty good home at the end of it.

I really don't see why they aren't more upset about other domestic issues such as the surplus of cats and dogs, which end up in shelters and then get destroyed. What a waste of effort.


----------



## em_40

Lil_nightmare said:


> Maybe its time to take the underhand tactics to the papers?
> 
> I wouldnt know where to start. But we cant just take this lying down, we need to make the general public aware! Ok so the majorty wont give a damn but surely i would be worth it for the ones that do stand up and take notice!


Someone said about a petition to show that we are a much bigger force than they thought, which might be useful if we could have one in every reptile shop in the country, that would be a lot of supporters, seen as shops are probably next to close after meetings. Could also take donations for the FBH, and maybe write an article in a paper... Not sure what help a list of names really is, but lots of people seem to do it XD


----------



## yorkielass

I must admit that after watching the APA's video footage of last years show I can understand why they would get support for this campaign! I realise that it is biased etc but looking at how some of the reps are 'displayed' it does look a little inhumane. There are also some beardies digging around in sand, are these gravid females digging to lay? Isn't this a bit stressful for them? 

Having said all that, I do realise that they are only in this situation for a short while and most will be well looked after etc but to anyone who doesn't understand that, then the video/propaganda will have an impact!!:bash:


----------



## MustLoveSnails

inkyjoe said:


> (though how do we fight terrorism from a bunch of ill informed jumped up vegans(?))


Oh no, we don't want to lay claim to them thankyou very much! :lol:


----------



## miss_ferret

em_40 said:


> Funny, I asked about this on another thread... I thought that farmers were still able to do it. Lots of similarities
> 
> What we need are farmers on our side that are willing to rent a peice of their land for a day for the people to trade there


the laws unbelievably confusing :lol2: as far as i understand it: they cant just rock up in the streets any more, but they can use designated buildings. then its conforming to DEFRA livestock laws and so on, so give notice of moving cows, sheep and so on.

its not a bad idea tbh, most horse shows are on private land after all. and farmers have shot guns :whistling2:


----------



## rigsby

death threats !!! bomb threats !!! surely the bloody coppers should be involved, sure if they threatened Ken livingstone with a bullet to the head for keeping newts it would be front page news and a job for scotland yard.


----------



## SnakeBreeder

I noticed a lot of newish members posting on this thread.:blush:
Maybe the PATA not only have eyes to read our posts but they post as well.
Some of the comment by new members can be turned around to show what a bad lot we reptile keepers are :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## mstypical

I can see where the APA want to take this... technically they can't make us give up our reptiles, but they can try and obstruct meetings, close shops, restrict sales of not just animals but what else... if they managed, somehow, to restrict the sale of the frozen rodents that we all rely on to feed our snakes, what then? We would either have to go underground and face prosecution no doubt for cruelty to rodents, or our snakes would starve.

I saw it with Pit Bulls, they can't take them off you if they are not dangerous, but they will sure as anything neuter them before you get them back, so eventually, they will die out.

Know this, APA. I spent 8 months, hundreds of pounds, and lots of time and effort in court saving the life of my dog, she is part of my family and *no-one* will tell me I can't keep her. I swear to you I will do the same again for my reptiles, who are a part of my life and my family. And I bet there are more of us who feel this way, than there are of you.


----------



## mrcriss

SnakeBreeder said:


> I noticed a lot of newish members posting on this thread.:blush:
> Maybe the PATA not only have eyes to read our posts but they post as well.
> Some of the comment by new members can be turned around to show what a bad lot we reptile keepers are :Na_Na_Na_Na:


I thought that too.....please be very careful what you say everybody.:whistling2:


----------



## Pauline

A perfect venue York Auction Centre they even hold rare breeds shows and sales.

I have just rejoined the IHS and will be going as long as the show takes place in whatever form.


----------



## ian kerr

PrincessStegosaurus said:


> Service station car park? Local park? Anything near Doncaster to send them an 'Eff you, we're still going to trade' Got to be something.





SnakeBreeder said:


> I noticed a lot of newish members posting on this thread.:blush:
> Maybe the PATA not only have eyes to read our posts but they post as well.
> Some of the comment by new members can be turned around to show what a bad lot we reptile keepers are :Na_Na_Na_Na:


interesting....im sure they post on here!


----------



## DaveM

Apparently on twitter, they set their sites on Gorilla glue, guess why...


----------



## mstypical

A few fairly obvious dodgy newbs here as well, us regulars know when we are having a bit of banter and a joke, but to echo mrcriss, be careful...

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/hobby-issues-information/843180-call-ban-shows-again-4.html


----------



## Row'n'Bud

Remember that when the shows are stopped they will definately move onto shops and private breeders....do you think they will just retire and rest on their laurels???...............not a chance as this is how they make their living, getting a few shows banned this year will probably allow Toland to give herself a nice juicy bonus on top of her salary
This is ALL about money at the end of the day....breeders making money, the taxman missing out on money and Toland and her side kicks making money, animal ethics are simply her band wagon to ride the high road on a good salary and to hob nob along the corridors of power to get her ugly mug photographed with MPs to make her ego feel more important than it is....without these campaigns she'd simply be a nobody :bash:


----------



## PureWelsh

*hey.*

Guy’s we all need to keep calm and wait for they outcome tomorrow, you never know the law might be on our side and everything might go normal again…

Plus we need to behind the FBH and IHS to make them stronger,i have just payed money for my membership :2thumb:

Until i hear anything that the show is cancelled or any other news.

See you guys Sunday! :2thumb::2thumb:


----------



## Richard Hanson

Can someone please explain to me, what is their issue?

Is it A) that they think reptile keepers have sloppy standards or too small caging? Or is it B) a fundamental disagreement with the concept of keeping exotics in captivity as pets, no matter how well kept?

It's a little hard to know how to deal with them without knowing the specific agenda they have.


----------



## Row'n'Bud

Richard Hanson said:


> Can someone please explain to me, what is their issue?
> 
> Is it A) that they think reptile keepers have sloppy standards or too small caging? Or is it B) a fundamental disagreement with the concept of keeping exotics in captivity as pets, no matter how well kept?
> 
> It's a little hard to know how to deal with then without knowing the specific agenda they have.


Simple, their agenda is ................. BAN,BAN,BAN !!!!!


----------



## Lil_nightmare

I think personally we need to kick up as much as a stink as we can!

Twitter: @Against_the_APA
Facebook: Anti Animal Protection Agency | Facebook
Media: Contact anyone you may via FB twitter or news people that you know to keep exotic pets and try and get a bit of support behind us!

If we just sit back and "wait" to be screwed then the only people we have to blame is ourselves


----------



## chris25

Lil_nightmare said:


> Maybe its time to take the underhand tactics to the papers?
> 
> I wouldnt know where to start. But we cant just take this lying down, we need to make the general public aware! Ok so the majorty wont give a damn but surely i would be worth it for the ones that do stand up and take notice!


given the fact that threats of violence/terrorism have been made id say this is a worthwhile thought...on one condition 

the fbh or ihs should be the ones to report it to the papers and a recognised club official should be the spokesperson,someone with clout,facts and the knowhow when it comes to debate


----------



## mstypical

Richard Hanson said:


> Can someone please explain to me, what is their issue?
> 
> Is it A) that they think reptile keepers have sloppy standards or too small caging? Or is it B) a fundamental disagreement with the concept of keeping exotics in captivity as pets, no matter how well kept?
> 
> It's a little hard to know how to deal with them without knowing the specific agenda they have.


They just don't want us keeping them, end of. Their argument is that we lie about them being captive bred, and actually they are snatched from the wild and brought to live in a house with people who have no idea about their biological/physiological requirements. And apparently snakes also give killer diseases to under 5's, pregnant ladies and old people.


----------



## Richard Hanson

Row'n'Bud said:


> Simple, their agenda is ................. BAN,BAN,BAN !!!!!


So, it's B; fundamental and uncompromising?


----------



## DaveM

mstypical said:


> They just don't want us keeping them, end of. Their argument is that we lie about them being captive bred, and actually they are snatched from the wild and brought to live in a house with people who have no idea about their biological/physiological requirements. And apparently snakes also give killer diseases to under 5's, pregnant ladies and old people.


And all the equipment will burn down the house, and, you will catch the disease even if a reptile hasn't been in a room for years


----------



## mstypical

DaveM said:


> And all the equipment will burn down the house, and, you will catch the disease even if a reptile hasn't been in a room for years


Oh yeah, forgot about the spontaneous combustion, silly me!


----------



## Guy_Brooks

em_40 said:


> Someone said about a petition to show that we are a much bigger force than they thought, which might be useful if we could have one in every reptile shop in the country, that would be a lot of supporters, seen as shops are probably next to close after meetings. Could also take donations for the FBH, and maybe write an article in a paper... Not sure what help a list of names really is, but lots of people seem to do it XD


That was me. Me and Mstypical have sorted it out and we have to wait 7 days untill it's confirmed (N)


----------



## Richard Hanson

So, they dislike farmed animals, what about captive bred?


----------



## yorkielass

Oooh...wonder if I can be a dodgy newbie:gasp::2thumb:


----------



## mstypical

yorkielass said:


> Oooh...wonder if I can be a dodgy newbie:gasp::2thumb:


Really unfortunate time to be new my friend :lol2: I have a feeling newbs will be treated with some scepticism for some time!


----------



## mrcriss

yorkielass said:


> Oooh...wonder if I can be a dodgy newbie:gasp::2thumb:


I think you are:whistling2:


----------



## Purple_D

Hopefully the outcome of Fridays court hearing will be good.
Even if it is not we should all turn up at donny and stand shoulder to shoulder and protest about these scum.
The date is set and the venue,lets make use of it


----------



## yorkielass

But...but...I have been a newbie since Dec 2011 and I have posted 22 times...23 now:Na_Na_Na_Na: :lol2:


----------



## cjs

i am travelling down from fife for the show on sunday no matter what form it is allowed. I am not attending the conference on sat 16th but will be at the dome, i would like to invite all members not attending the conference to join me in peacefull support of the IHS and the hobby as a whole, this should not be viewed as a protest againt the APA or any other morons making terrorist threats, just a peacefull show of support for our community.


----------



## Row'n'Bud

Richard Hanson said:


> So, they dislike farmed animals, what about captive bred?


These are kept by people with no understanding of their physical and pschological needs in uncaring cruel conditions....their "vets and experts" on their payroll say so so it must be true


----------



## PrincessStegosaurus

yorkielass said:


> Oooh...wonder if I can be a dodgy newbie:gasp::2thumb:


No apparently I am for posting far fetched heat of the moment clutching at straws ideas :whistling2: I only bloody joined for the classifieds so I could arrange collecting things at Donc! And now it's all gone belly up. Remember why I never bothered with reptile forums.. +sigh+ I'm a fur coat wearing animal testing lab technician, of COURSE I'm a member of the APA


----------



## mstypical

PrincessStegosaurus said:


> No apparently I am for posting far fetched heat of the moment clutching at straws ideas :whistling2: I only bloody joined for the classifieds so I could arrange collecting things at Donc! And now it's all gone belly up. Remember why I never bothered with reptile forums.. +sigh+ I'm a fur coat wearing animal testing lab technician, of COURSE I'm a member of the APA


Like I said earlier, bad time to be a newb, not your fault, or anyone else's, just stick with it until all this is sorted out :no1:


----------



## Sweetcorn

Row'n'Bud said:


> These are kept by people with no understanding of their physical and pschological needs in uncaring cruel conditions....their "vets and experts" on their payroll say so so it must be true


Do you mean this expert :whistling2:

Clifford Warwick, Expert or B.Bs.D.? - PJBoosinger


----------



## Guy_Brooks

PrincessStegosaurus said:


> No apparently I am for posting far fetched heat of the moment clutching at straws ideas :whistling2: I only bloody joined for the classifieds so I could arrange collecting things at Donc! And now it's all gone belly up. Remember why I never bothered with reptile forums.. +sigh+ I'm a fur coat wearing animal testing lab technician, of COURSE I'm a member of the APA


And don't take it personal it wont just be you, it'll be others as well


----------



## Burmtastic

cjs said:


> i am travelling down from fife for the show on sunday no matter what form it is allowed. I am not attending the conference on sat 16th but will be at the dome, i would like to invite all members not attending the conference to join me in peacefull support of the IHS and the hobby as a whole, this should not be viewed as a protest againt the APA or any other morons making terrorist threats, just a peacefull show of support for our community.


I'm heading from Glenrothes on sat so will be there any way : victory:


----------



## mstypical

Sweetcorn said:


> Do you mean this expert :whistling2:
> 
> 
> Clifford Warwick, Expert or B.Bs.D.? - PJBoosinger


Almost makes me want to take a DipMedSci and challenge him.... but then again i'm already more highly qualified than him :whistling2:


----------



## PrincessStegosaurus

Hmm. Just somewhat peeved that after a good 5+ years off the forums due to the b-tchyness that goes on at times, I return to support the cause via the show and the dilemma surrounding it, only be accused of being a member of the very organisation trying to STOP me getting back in to the hobby. Jeeze, I used to run an exotics shop. I now work in medical testing. I have a fur coat and collect taxidermy. I'm not exactly a posterchild for the APA.


----------



## Lil_nightmare

Now a lot of you probably wont as you see it as pointless, But im determined to do as much as possible to battle the APA and because of the times think social media is the way to do it.

I have written a status and ask that everyone post it for say an hour, just to raise awareness, it is as follows:

I would like to call on all my ANIMAL LOVER friends to repost this if only for an hour!
The @Animal Protection Agency is trying to get one of our annual reptile meetings shutdown at @Doncaster Dome Leisure Centre. They are using threats to scare the venue into BREACHING THE CONTRACT with The International Herpetological Society.

Now many of you may not like Reptiles but dont be fooled, if they win here then where will they go next? Horses, Dogs or Cats? What would you do to protect the animals you love???

Please repost to show the APA we will not go down without a fight and we will NOT let them take our passion from us!!!


----------



## rigsby

just had a thought, the court rules in our favour, we all turn up 11am theres a phone call stating theres a bomb in the dome. They would have no other choice than to evacuate the building even though they know its one of these idiots and chances are its bullshit.


----------



## yorkielass

The APA needs to spend it's time and energy stopping the trade of live turtles in keyrings etc...real cruelty!!


----------



## mstypical

Lil_nightmare said:


> Now a lot of you probably wont as you see it as pointless, But im determined to do as much as possible to battle the APA and because of the times think social media is the way to do it.
> 
> I have written a status and ask that everyone post it for say an hour, just to raise awareness, it is as follows:
> 
> I would like to call on all my ANIMAL LOVER friends to repost this if only for an hour!
> The @Animal Protection Agency is trying to get one of our annual reptile meetings shutdown at @Doncaster Dome Leisure Centre. They are using threats to scare the venue into BREACHING THE CONTRACT with The International Herpetological Society.
> 
> Now many of you may not like Reptiles but dont be fooled, if they win here then where will they go next? Horses, Dogs or Cats? What would you do to protect the animals you love???
> 
> Please repost to show the APA we will not go down without a fight and we will NOT let them take our passion from us!!!


Posted :no1:


----------



## Burmtastic

Lil_nightmare said:


> Now a lot of you probably wont as you see it as pointless, But im determined to do as much as possible to battle the APA and because of the times think social media is the way to do it.
> 
> I have written a status and ask that everyone post it for say an hour, just to raise awareness, it is as follows:
> 
> I would like to call on all my ANIMAL LOVER friends to repost this if only for an hour!
> The @Animal Protection Agency is trying to get one of our annual reptile meetings shutdown at @Doncaster Dome Leisure Centre. They are using threats to scare the venue into BREACHING THE CONTRACT with The International Herpetological Society.
> 
> Now many of you may not like Reptiles but dont be fooled, if they win here then where will they go next? Horses, Dogs or Cats? What would you do to protect the animals you love???
> 
> Please repost to show the APA we will not go down without a fight and we will NOT let them take our passion from us!!!


posted


----------



## mstypical

rigsby said:


> just had a thought, the court rules in our favour, we all turn up 11am theres a phone call stating theres a bomb in the dome. They would have no other choice than to evacuate the building even though they know its one of these idiots and chances are its bullshit.


 
That would be the best outcome for everybody; it would be blatantly obvious where it had come from! Let them do it!


----------



## Hutchie91

Im gonna be so p***** off if it doesnt go ahead! These extremests need to get a life and a proper job! Winds me up something rotten! Is there anything we can do to support the ihs?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Guy_Brooks

Lil_nightmare said:


> Now a lot of you probably wont as you see it as pointless, But im determined to do as much as possible to battle the APA and because of the times think social media is the way to do it.
> 
> I have written a status and ask that everyone post it for say an hour, just to raise awareness, it is as follows:
> 
> I would like to call on all my ANIMAL LOVER friends to repost this if only for an hour!
> The @Animal Protection Agency is trying to get one of our annual reptile meetings shutdown at @Doncaster Dome Leisure Centre. They are using threats to scare the venue into BREACHING THE CONTRACT with The International Herpetological Society.
> 
> Now many of you may not like Reptiles but dont be fooled, if they win here then where will they go next? Horses, Dogs or Cats? What would you do to protect the animals you love???
> 
> Please repost to show the APA we will not go down without a fight and we will NOT let them take our passion from us!!!


Posted


----------



## Horny Toad

I had a chat with Richard Brook (the IHS show organiser) this evening. We have had close contact with each other, for several reasons, for the last couple of months. We have been very aware of what was likely to happen with regards to holding this show, and others for the future. He requested this evening that key members of the Herpetological community like myself need to "rally the troops". I have been keeping reptiles now for over 35 years, held top positions within the IHS and own two well know reptile supply businesses in the UK. I have seen the hobby develop from "loners in bedrooms" to a mainstream industry - and also seen the evolution of the likes of APA and other so called animal welfare groups.

Now, it's time for the cold, hard truth. If you want to maintain your hobby, your industry (if you are commercial; ie shop / wholesaler) and your general passion for keeping animals we, as a collective movement, need money. I quickly flicked through this thread, many have asked what they can do to help, others have suggested giving the FBH donations - and that's exactly what we all need to do. If we allow this show to fail, we are on the slippery slope to losing our life of keeping animals (note I don't just say exotics). I am aware how much money the barrister bill is, just up until today, it is a scary amount currently funded by the IHS, FBH and industry leaders like myself. We need money.

Please follow the FBH Pay Pal links already on this thread. I urge all clubs and shops to ask for donations and forward the monies raised to the FBH. If you can afford a fiver, do it - we cannot lose this fight due to running out of funds. Help now, donate - Animal welfare groups prey on well meaning people and collect funds, they can be regarded as reasonably cash rich. If you can give more, please, it's very important that it's done now. Right now.

I will post more tomorrow, and will also start collecting donations through both Coast to Coast and Zoo Logic. I suggest any others who have the ability to collect do the same. Do I need to get on my knees? Please, collect funds for the FBH now.


----------



## Tarron

Lil_nightmare said:


> Now a lot of you probably wont as you see it as pointless, But im determined to do as much as possible to battle the APA and because of the times think social media is the way to do it.
> 
> I have written a status and ask that everyone post it for say an hour, just to raise awareness, it is as follows:
> 
> I would like to call on all my ANIMAL LOVER friends to repost this if only for an hour!
> The @Animal Protection Agency is trying to get one of our annual reptile meetings shutdown at @Doncaster Dome Leisure Centre. They are using threats to scare the venue into BREACHING THE CONTRACT with The International Herpetological Society.
> 
> Now many of you may not like Reptiles but dont be fooled, if they win here then where will they go next? Horses, Dogs or Cats? What would you do to protect the animals you love???
> 
> Please repost to show the APA we will not go down without a fight and we will NOT let them take our passion from us!!!


I'm quite new to twitter, etc. I can't post all that as its pre the character limit. Am I being dumb?


----------



## mrcriss

rigsby said:


> just had a thought, the court rules in our favour, we all turn up 11am theres a phone call stating theres a bomb in the dome. They would have no other choice than to evacuate the building even though they know its one of these idiots and chances are its bullshit.


This is just the kind of crap that people shouldn't be posting on here! Ever heard the phrase "walls have ears"?:bash:


----------



## batcode

fingers crossed for tomorrow i wish chris all the best but obv if dont work out which hopefully will see u all on sunday will put all the other shows at risk ??????????????why cant apa foff and do something with there lifes stead messing up others as if wasnt for some breeders etc some these reptiles amphibians etc would be extinct or very rare i know its only few but as eg the axolotayl moreless none exsitent in wild ????


----------



## Lil_nightmare

Tarron said:


> I'm quite new to twitter, etc. I can't post all that as its pre the character limit. Am I being dumb?


No you cant post it all on twitter, dam them and their lmits, but just posting what the APA is doing will help spread the word


----------



## Big_Rich

Lil_nightmare said:


> Now a lot of you probably wont as you see it as pointless, But im determined to do as much as possible to battle the APA and because of the times think social media is the way to do it.
> 
> I have written a status and ask that everyone post it for say an hour, just to raise awareness, it is as follows:
> 
> I would like to call on all my ANIMAL LOVER friends to repost this if only for an hour!
> The @Animal Protection Agency is trying to get one of our annual reptile meetings shutdown at @Doncaster Dome Leisure Centre. They are using threats to scare the venue into BREACHING THE CONTRACT with The International Herpetological Society.
> 
> Now many of you may not like Reptiles but dont be fooled, if they win here then where will they go next? Horses, Dogs or Cats? What would you do to protect the animals you love???
> 
> Please repost to show the APA we will not go down without a fight and we will NOT let them take our passion from us!!!


Done!


----------



## Tarron

Lil_nightmare said:


> No you cant post it all on twitter, dam them and their lmits, but just posting what the APA is doing will help spread the word


Ok, Ill make something up.


----------



## rigsby

mrcriss said:


> This is just the kind of crap that people shouldn't be posting on here! Ever heard the phrase "walls have ears"?:bash:


yeah right,, like they wouldn't have thought of this anyway, they aint that thick just nut cases or are you just naive


----------



## Khonsu

I don't do Face Book so I can't make a complaint to them but cannot those people who subscribe to Face Book make a complaint that the APA are waging a hatred campaign on FB in breach of FB rules & that by allowing the APA to post on FB they, FB, are supporting a group supporting terrorism


----------



## Big_Rich

v-max said:


> I had a chat with Richard Brook (the IHS show organiser) this evening. We have had close contact with each other, for several reasons, for the last couple of months. We have been very aware of what was likely to happen with regards to holding this show, and others for the future. He requested this evening that key members of the Herpetological community like myself need to "rally the troops". I have been keeping reptiles now for over 35 years, held top positions within the IHS and own two well know reptile supply businesses in the UK. I have seen the hobby develop from "loners in bedrooms" to a mainstream industry - and also seen the evolution of the likes of APA and other so called animal welfare groups.
> 
> Now, it's time for the cold, hard truth. If you want to maintain your hobby, your industry (if you are commercial; ie shop / wholesaler) and your general passion for keeping animals we, as a collective movement, need money. I quickly flicked through this thread, many have asked what they can do to help, others have suggested giving the FBH donations - and that's exactly what we all need to do. If we allow this show to fail, we are on the slippery slope to losing our life of keeping animals (note I don't just say exotics). I am aware how much money the barrister bill is, just up until today, it is a scary amount currently funded by the IHS, FBH and industry leaders like myself. We need money.
> 
> Please follow the FBH Pay Pal links already on this thread. I urge all clubs and shops to ask for donations and forward the monies raised to the FBH. If you can afford a fiver, do it - we cannot lose this fight due to running out of funds. Help now, donate - Animal welfare groups prey on well meaning people and collect funds, they can be regarded as reasonably cash rich. If you can give more, please, it's very important that it's done now. Right now.
> 
> I will post more tomorrow, and will also start collecting donations through both Coast to Coast and Zoo Logic. I suggest any others who have the ability to collect do the same. Do I need to get on my knees? Please, collect funds for the FBH now.


Is donating money all we should do?? Or can we take a more active role?


----------



## Dave Balls

heres a link to the apa's public accounts for the last 5 years and their memoradum and members list.


http://daveballs.co.uk/dave/apa.zip (thanks to newdawn)

they are a limited company and their memorandum has lots more about spending donations on expenses and "investments" than it does about animals. but looking at the website you would assume they are some sort of charity

shurely what they are doing cant be legal? :whistling2:


----------



## Purple_D

Aimo said:


> I don't do Face Book so I can't make a complaint to them but cannot those people who subscribe to Face Book make a complaint that the APA are waging a hatred campaign on FB in breach of FB rules & that by allowing the APA to post on FB they, FB, are supporting a group supporting terrorism


Tried that yesterday,still waiting for a reply from fb


----------



## mrcriss

rigsby said:


> yeah right,, like they wouldn't have thought of this anyway, they aint that thick just nut cases or are you just naive


But the situation hardly requires plonkers like you going on about it! For christ's sake, show a bit of maturity! These flippant silly comments are hardly going to help strengthen our cause! Fool!:bash:


----------



## Richard Hanson

Dave Balls said:


> heres a link to the apa's public accounts for the last 5 years and their memoradum and members list.
> 
> 
> http://daveballs.co.uk/dave/apa.zip (thanks to newdawn)
> 
> they are a limited company and their memorandum has lots more about spending donations on expenses and "investments" than it does about animals. but looking at the website you would assume they are a charity
> 
> shurely what they are doing cant be legal? :whistling2:


All will become, at least a little, clearer tomorrow.


----------



## Dave Balls

Richard Hanson said:


> All will become, at least a little, clearer tomorrow.


Its the doncaster leisure trust being taken to court tomorrow isn't it mate? :?


----------



## Richard Hanson

Dave Balls said:


> Its the doncaster leisure trust being taken to court tomorrow isn't it mate? :?


Ah, sure. I wasn't sure if the legitimacy of the APA's actions would be called into the judgement in any way.


----------



## saulyp

this is a joke I hope it gets sorted for the better tomoz gud luck guys!!!:2thumb:


----------



## Lil_nightmare

I have contected both Nick baker and jonathon ross, both keepers of "exotics" via twitter to help champion our cause and help fight the APA. I am also buying 2 subscriptions to the IHS ( me and OH) so i can tactically leave the spare quarterly at work :whistling2:


----------



## em_40

Lil_nightmare said:


> I have contected both Nick baker and jonathon ross, both keepers of "exotics" via twitter to help champion our cause and help fight the APA. I am also buying 2 subscriptions to the IHS ( me and OH) so i can tactically leave the spare quarterly at work :whistling2:


good good, I thought about doing this but I don't know how to use twitter :lol2:


----------



## mstypical

em_40 said:


> good good, I thought about doing this but I don't know how to use twitter :lol2:


Snap... well, actually I don't even have Twitter...

Edit: Sarah-Louise (can't remember her name) from Coronation Street frequents Manchester Pets and Aquatics, photo's of her with reps on their Facebook page, don't know if she keeps them, but she visits the shop often!


----------



## Lil_nightmare

em_40 said:


> good good, I thought about doing this but I don't know how to use twitter :lol2:


Me either but im learning as i go lol


----------



## riley165

*hi*

I dont see the problem with these Animal loving, tree hugging hippies, they do a lot of good for the environment and really care for the animals that we love too! Just cast your minds back to 08/08/1998 when they set free 6500 mink in to the wild. so what if they have killed thousands of native UK animals including reptiles these animals were for the fur trade so they had to save them right??

The majority of these people dont work or have never worked in there life so they need something to tide there days over and who are we to tell them what they can and cant have views on? do you think its easy sponging of the government and getting by on benefits which is just enough to have dred locks put in your hair and buy an ounce of cannabis each week whilst talking endless crap to strangers? passing on 3rd party information without knowing all/if any of the facts? is hard work especially if they are to sound convincing to others and to get them to go along with there radical but strange views that almost make sense if you are a complete retarded?

I say give the animal activists a break there only doing what is right after all, just because us keepers/breeders of reptiles have regenerated numbers of species that were considered extinct or nearly extinct not too long ago like the Crested Gecko and other true locality species of reptiles. What do we know as keepers compared to these guys? I am glad there on the fore front protecting animal rights I just hope they wear a T shirt showing what they stand for and maybe have banners or something that sticks out at Doncaster so we can identify them and STOVE THERE HEADS IN!!

These people make me sick!


----------



## LiamRatSnake

Could the IHS or FBH get in touch with companies like Pets @ Home now that most of their stores are selling reptiles and related products they stand to lose a lot of money if the APA carry on. Also there are many companies who have a lot of revenue behind them that stand to lose a lot. Zoomed, Eurorep, Arcadia ect ect. These are the people we need on our sides seeing as we keep food on their tables.


----------



## mstypical

LiamRatSnake said:


> Could the IHS or FBH get in touch with companies like Pets @ Home now that most of their stores are selling reptiles and related products they stand to lose a lot of money if the APA carry on. Also there are many companies who have a lot of revenue behind them that stand to lose a lot. Zoomed, Eurorep, Arcadia ect ect. These are the people we need on our sides seeing as we keep food on their tables.


Yep, Exo-terra, Habistat, Microclimate, makers of supplements etc... good thinking Mr Ratsnake


----------



## Lil_nightmare

LiamRatSnake said:


> Could the IHS or FBH get in touch with companies like Pets @ Home now that most of their stores are selling reptiles and related products they stand to lose a lot of money if the APA carry on. Also there are many companies who have a lot of revenue behind them that stand to lose a lot. Zoomed, Eurorep, Arcadia ect ect. These are the people we need on our sides seeing as we keep food on their tables.



If someone who is better then me can write a stock letter I am more then happy o open a dialogue with these companys and see if they can help or even just champion the FBH and IHS.

I am determined not to let this lie and if that means devoting every second of my sare time to contacting people and making people aware then god help me i wll!


----------



## inkyjoe

seriously, everyone donate! Im sure that u all have been saving your pennies to buy the latest morphs at the show, well instead of buying urselves a new pet, donate some of that money to your RIGHT to keep that pet! This really is a big deal!


----------



## mstypical

Lil_nightmare said:


> If someone who is better then me can write a stock letter I am more then happy o open a dialogue with these companys and see if they can help or even just champion the FBH and IHS.
> 
> I am determined not to let this lie and if that means devoting every second of my sare time to contacting people and making people aware then god help me i wll!


 
Ooh ooh writing is my strong point, Guy Brooks will tell you! PM me what you would like the letter to say and i'll get on it if you want?


----------



## LiamRatSnake

mstypical said:


> Yep, Exo-terra, Habistat, Microclimate, makers of supplements etc... good thinking Mr Ratsnake





Lil_nightmare said:


> If someone who is better then me can write a stock letter I am more then happy o open a dialogue with these companys and see if they can help or even just champion the FBH and IHS.
> 
> I am determined not to let this lie and if that means devoting every second of my sare time to contacting people and making people aware then god help me i wll!


I think it's worth a go. Shops too if they're next. CPR, Viper n Vine, MPA, Living Rainforest ect ect. There are all lots of large reptile shops who also use shows to advertise themselves and obtain stock and have more powerful voices than ourselves. They too are worth contacting.


----------



## em_40

LiamRatSnake said:


> Could the IHS or FBH get in touch with companies like Pets @ Home now that most of their stores are selling reptiles and related products they stand to lose a lot of money if the APA carry on. Also there are many companies who have a lot of revenue behind them that stand to lose a lot. Zoomed, Eurorep, Arcadia ect ect. These are the people we need on our sides seeing as we keep food on their tables.





Lil_nightmare said:


> If someone who is better then me can write a stock letter I am more then happy o open a dialogue with these companys and see if they can help or even just champion the FBH and IHS.
> 
> I am determined not to let this lie and if that means devoting every second of my sare time to contacting people and making people aware then god help me i wll!


If there's a petition on paper, I'm sure that my local pets at home would get it signed by a fair few people, and if there was those things to donate money into, I'm sure that could get a few funds to the FBH too. And at the local reptile shops.


----------



## LiamRatSnake

mstypical said:


> Ooh ooh writing is my strong point, Guy Brooks will tell you! PM me what you would like the letter to say and i'll get on it if you want?


I think outlining the threat to the hobby and their revenues should get their attention. Then forward to all the biggest reptile product suppliers.


----------



## mstypical

em_40 said:


> If there's a petition on paper, I'm sure that my local pets at home would get it signed by a fair few people, and if there was those things to donate money into, I'm sure that could get a few funds to the FBH too. And at the local reptile shops.


You need a licence to have a charity box/donation tin, not an easy option, try directing people to the Paypal page.... or what about JustGiving or something like that?


----------



## Guy_Brooks

mstypical said:


> Ooh ooh writing is my strong point, Guy Brooks will tell you! PM me what you would like the letter to say and i'll get on it if you want?


Yes her strong point is writing I can back her for that (Gave her a gold star for it) We are now P.I.P partners in petitions........ Yeah you get the point.


----------



## mrcriss

LiamRatSnake said:


> Could the IHS or FBH get in touch with companies like Pets @ Home now that most of their stores are selling reptiles and related products they stand to lose a lot of money if the APA carry on. Also there are many companies who have a lot of revenue behind them that stand to lose a lot. Zoomed, Eurorep, Arcadia ect ect. These are the people we need on our sides seeing as we keep food on their tables.


It all very well coming up with these ideas on here, but why do the IHS or FBH never reply to this kind of thing? It seems that after the initial statement, the speculation and drama just spirals out of control on the threads they started with no response, leadership or guidance as to what people could do. I don't mean to speak ill of people doing good work, but they often seem like faceless organisations. A bit more communication with it's supporters (and more importantly it's _*potential supporters*_) would probably be a very good thing.


----------



## Tarron

Get some petitions up on. The site for people to print, ill get loads of local stores involved, provide an addressed envelope, where they can all be put together and get these wherver Is needed.

Also, letters to [email protected] et al would be spot on, If anyome needs help writing anything, I have spare time tomorrow.


----------



## Guy_Brooks

Tarron said:


> Get some petitions up on. The site for people to print, ill get loads of local stores involved, provide an addressed envelope, where they can all be put together and get these wherver Is needed.
> 
> Also, letters to [email protected] et al would be spot on, If anyome needs help writing anything, I have spare time tomorrow.


Me and Mstypical have sorted an online petition


----------



## Lil_nightmare

Right Mystypical is going to write something out for me to send round to companies.

Im going to comprise a list of companies to send to so if you have any suggestions please PM me so i dont miss anyone out.

Im not going to go down without a fight and the FBH/IHS are fighting there end but we cant always rely on other people to do everything for us.

If *WE *want our hobby to continue the *WE* need to fight!!


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Most retailers are already using wholesalers that directly fund the Reptile and exotic pet trade association that funds Chris Newman, so we are already donating to the cause and have been for some time. 

Try pets at home, they have been happy to eat away at the small independent retailers bottom line for the past few years, will be interesting to see what happens when the fight comes to their door.


----------



## westie1

Peregrine livefoods is a huge player and I bet they would support is as without reps there done.


----------



## ophidianman

yorkielass said:


> But...but...I have been a newbie since Dec 2011 and I have posted 22 times...23 now:Na_Na_Na_Na: :lol2:


Aha....................A 'sleeper'........: victory::lol2:


----------



## Hutchie91

> If *WE *want our hobby to continue the *WE* need to fight!!


Amen! We all need to pull together to show that were serious about our hobby and our pets

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## LiamRatSnake

Lil_nightmare said:


> Right Mystypical is going to write something out for me to send round to companies.
> 
> Im going to comprise a list of companies to send to so if you have any suggestions please PM me so i dont miss anyone out.
> 
> Im not going to go down without a fight and the FBH/IHS are fighting there end but we cant always rely on other people to do everything for us.
> 
> If *WE *want our hobby to continue the *WE* need to fight!!


If you need any help. : victory:


----------



## mikeyb

Lil_nightmare said:


> Right Mystypical is going to write something out for me to send round to companies.
> 
> Im going to comprise a list of companies to send to so if you have any suggestions please PM me so i dont miss anyone out.
> 
> Im not going to go down without a fight and the FBH/IHS are fighting there end but we cant always rely on other people to do everything for us.
> 
> If *WE *want our hobby to continue the *WE* need to fight!!


 this is wat my thread was about there whistle blowers so i put up the apa packback thread so people could decimate there inbox and keep that C-Unit who put her mobile number on the apa page awake all night WE NEED TO FIGHT GUYS i know it sounds awful but if they wanna make bomb threats maybe someone needs the threaten them that a mamba will be posted annonamously to there head office if they proceed to keep using underhanded terrorist actions to scare councils. they want our animals so much lets see how they cope with an angry mamba going nuts in there office. im not condoning illegal actions but if they wanna stoop to that level like last time and making death threats then maybe they need a taste of there own medicine


----------



## Guy_Brooks

Lil_nightmare said:


> Right Mystypical is going to write something out for me to send round to companies.
> 
> Im going to comprise a list of companies to send to so if you have any suggestions please PM me so i dont miss anyone out.
> 
> Im not going to go down without a fight and the FBH/IHS are fighting there end but we cant always rely on other people to do everything for us.
> 
> If *WE *want our hobby to continue the *WE* need to fight!!


Any business that manufactures in equipment for animals (as the APA will venture onto other animals)

Adheseal, Alf, Alfa, Algarde, Alto, API, Aqua Medic, Aquael, AquaHydrotech Ltd, Aquarian, Aquarium Systems, Arcadia, AVS Books, Azoo, Back, Barrons, Beaphar, Blagdon, Boyu, Burns, Butchers, Caribsea, Cascade, Chipsi, Cloverleaf, Crystal, Dow Corning, Eheim, Euro Rep, Evolution Aqua, Exo Terra, F10 Biocare, Fishmate, Fluval, Glacia, Gussie, Habistat, Hagen, Hikari, Hugo Kamishi, Hydor, Instant Ocean, James Wellbeloved, JMC, Juwel, Kent Marine, Kent Reef, King British, Komodo, Livefood, Lucky Reptile, Marina, Mars Fishcare, Microclimate, Mikki, Naturediet, Nekton, Newa, Nishikoi, NT Labs, Nutrafin, Ocean Nutrition, Osmotics, Penn Plax, Pettex Bedding, ProRep, Red Sea, Reef, Reef 1, Rena, Repstyle, Reptilite, Safe, Salifert, Sam Baker, Seachem, Seneye, Supa, Superfish, Supreme Pet foods, Surrey Pet Supplies
Sydeco, T-Rex, Tetra, Tetrafin, TFH, Three Little Fishes, TMC, TPE, Trixie, Tropic, Underworld, Vetark, ViaAqua, VivExotic, Walter Harrisons, Waterlife and Zoo Med

I think I've named enough :whistling2:


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

westie1 said:


> Peregrine livefoods is a huge player and I bet they would support is as without reps there done.


They already pour cash into REPTA though, retailers have been aware of the threat for years and everytime we bring it to the fore we are slated as doom mongers now the wolf is knocking on the door people have woken up, 

We the retailers have been donating directly and indirectly for years, Now is the time for the hobbyists to dig deep.


----------



## andy007

mikeyb said:


> this is wat my thread was about there whistle blowers so i put up the apa packback thread so people could decimate there inbox and keep that C-Unit who put her mobile number on the apa page awake all night WE NEED TO FIGHT GUYS i know it sounds awful but if they wanna make bomb threats maybe someone needs the threaten them that a mamba will be posted annonamously to there head office if they proceed to keep using underhanded terrorist actions to scare councils. they want our animals so much lets see how they cope with an angry mamba going nuts in there office. im not condoning illegal actions but if they wanna stoop to that level like last time and making death threats then maybe they need a taste of there own medicine


Sorry to say this Mikey, but this is exactly what we shouldn't be doing.


----------



## mispentyouth

please remember that the show will go ahead no mater what the outcome is tomorrw . The best way to fight this will be to atend the show and pay your entrance fee as this will claw back the money that has been spent hireing the venue and will also raise some much neefed revenue to help fight our cause . Also we need to show that we wont give up without a fight (by no means physical) but we need to stand up and be counted


----------



## Lil_nightmare

LFBP-NEIL said:


> Most retailers are already using wholesalers that directly fund the Reptile and exotic pet trade association that funds Chris Newman, so we are already donating to the cause and have been for some time.
> 
> Try pets at home, they have been happy to eat away at the small independent retailers bottom line for the past few years, will be interesting to see what happens when the fight comes to their door.


This is much appreciated! But i think now is the time to be more vocal about it, maybe see if we can get some sort of affiliate scheme going with the FBH/IHS and the companys that support exotic keeping!


----------



## storm

mrcriss said:


> It all very well coming up with these ideas on here, but why do the IHS or FBH never reply to this kind of thing? It seems that after the initial statement, the speculation and drama just spirals out of control on the threads they started with no response, leadership or guidance as to what people could do. I don't mean to speak ill of people doing good work, but they often seem like faceless organisations. A bit more communication with it's supporters (and more importantly it's _*potential supporters*_) would probably be a very good thing.


plus getting the web page for joining the FBH to work!!!


----------



## Lil_nightmare

Guy_Brooks said:


> Any business that manufactures in equipment for animals (as the APA will venture onto other animals)
> 
> Adheseal, Alf, Alfa, Algarde, Alto, API, Aqua Medic, Aquael, AquaHydrotech Ltd, Aquarian, Aquarium Systems, Arcadia, AVS Books, Azoo, Back, Barrons, Beaphar, Blagdon, Boyu, Burns, Butchers, Caribsea, Cascade, Chipsi, Cloverleaf, Crystal, Dow Corning, Eheim, Euro Rep, Evolution Aqua, Exo Terra, F10 Biocare, Fishmate, Fluval, Glacia, Gussie, Habistat, Hagen, Hikari, Hugo Kamishi, Hydor, Instant Ocean, James Wellbeloved, JMC, Juwel, Kent Marine, Kent Reef, King British, Komodo, Livefood, Lucky Reptile, Marina, Mars Fishcare, Microclimate, Mikki, Naturediet, Nekton, Newa, Nishikoi, NT Labs, Nutrafin, Ocean Nutrition, Osmotics, Penn Plax, Pettex Bedding, ProRep, Red Sea, Reef, Reef 1, Rena, Repstyle, Reptilite, Safe, Salifert, Sam Baker, Seachem, Seneye, Supa, Superfish, Supreme Pet foods, Surrey Pet Supplies
> Sydeco, T-Rex, Tetra, Tetrafin, TFH, Three Little Fishes, TMC, TPE, Trixie, Tropic, Underworld, Vetark, ViaAqua, VivExotic, Walter Harrisons, Waterlife and Zoo Med
> 
> I think I've named enough :whistling2:


You sir are a legend! :no1:


----------



## andy007

Lil_nightmare said:


> This is much appreciated! But i think now is the time to be more vocal about it, maybe see if we can get some sort of affiliate scheme going with the FBH/IHS and the companys that support exotic keeping!


Exo Terra are already sponsors of the Dome event, so I wonder what their view is of the possible cancellation?


----------



## mstypical

Lil_nightmare said:


> You sir are a legend! :no1:


First draft in your inbox :2thumb:


----------



## Guy_Brooks

Lil_nightmare said:


> You sir are a legend! :no1:


Well, haha, thanks :blush: but copy and paste did all the job :lol2:


----------



## Lil_nightmare

LFBP-NEIL said:


> They already pour cash into REPTA though, retailers have been aware of the threat for years and everytime we bring it to the fore we are slated as doom mongers now the wolf is knocking on the door people have woken up,
> 
> We the retailers have been donating directly and indirectly for years, Now is the time for the hobbyists to dig deep.


I wish i could give every penny i earn to support this but unfortunately this isn't possible. Which is why i am doing everything in my power to raise awareness.

People need to realise that giving money is only half the fight!


----------



## westie1

LFBP-NEIL said:


> They already pour cash into REPTA though, retailers have been aware of the threat for years and everytime we bring it to the fore we are slated as doom mongers now the wolf is knocking on the door people have woken up,
> 
> We the retailers have been donating directly and indirectly for years, Now is the time for the hobbyists to dig deep.


I know there trade pack if full of stuff they do but I don't mean cash wise. Vocally showing support and putting the great marketing people who convince money outa my boss to good use. 
It's the big players and the institutions with the legitimate voice we need to be the terriers behind them.

Oh and hobbyists dig deep with every $2.49 box of bloody crickets to support the retailers!


----------



## Lil_nightmare

mikeyb said:


> this is wat my thread was about there whistle blowers so i put up the apa packback thread so people could decimate there inbox and keep that C-Unit who put her mobile number on the apa page awake all night WE NEED TO FIGHT GUYS i know it sounds awful but if they wanna make bomb threats maybe someone needs the threaten them that a mamba will be posted annonamously to there head office if they proceed to keep using underhanded terrorist actions to scare councils. they want our animals so much lets see how they cope with an angry mamba going nuts in there office. im not condoning illegal actions but if they wanna stoop to that level like last time and making death threats then maybe they need a taste of there own medicine



No no no no no!!!!! If we do something like that then i can guarantee you it will be made a lot more public then what they are doing. Then where do we stand?


----------



## Row'n'Bud

Everybody keeps talking about going to the show, as far as I read it from the response Chris posted earlier then unless something is sorted in court tomorrow there will be no show....

"
Further to the position outlined in the letter by the International Herpetological Society, it is with regret that I must inform you that Doncaster Culture Leisure Trust will not allow the event to take place at The Dome. 
This decision is in relation to the event scheduled on Sunday 17th June 2012."


----------



## mstypical

Lil_nightmare said:


> No no no no no!!!!! If we do something like that then i can guarantee you it will be made a lot more public then what they are doing. Then where do we stand?


I agree, Mike your other thread was took down for a reason, we all got worked up and ranted about things we felt like doing, but in reality we wouldn't/shouldn't. Now we've had time to think about it, we're slowly getting quite a good plan together here :no1:


----------



## Guy_Brooks

Row'n'Bud said:


> Everybody keeps talking about going to the show, as far as I read it from the response Chris posted earlier then unless something is sorted in court tomorrow there will be no show....
> 
> "
> Further to the position outlined in the letter by the International Herpetological Society, it is with regret that I must inform you that Doncaster Culture Leisure Trust will not allow the event to take place at The Dome.
> This decision is in relation to the event scheduled on Sunday 17th June 2012."


Nothing states that we can not turn up in numbers though:2thumb:


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

I sound like a right pessimistic git tonight, but dont be too suprised if your local reptile shop is less than enthusiastic about this for the following reasons....

1, they already support the fight financially albeit indirectly
2, shows serve no purpose to us (shop owners) at all
3, breeders generally dont support their local reptile shop they would rather sell animals at low prices at show than to a shop
4, shops are constantly getting slagged on these forums as being over priced
5, the list can go on but ask any shop keeper (back me up guys and girls) we generally on a whole derive no benefit from reptile shows? unless someone wants to show me differently? 

My advice would be go after Exo terra as they love taking your money


----------



## Lil_nightmare

Whilst i support both the IHS/FBH wholeheartedly im going to look into setting up my own group/website to further support the work they are doing.

Now i just need a name and support. :no1:


----------



## mstypical

LFBP-NEIL said:


> I sound like a right pessimistic git tonight, but dont be too suprised if your local reptile shop is less than enthusiastic about this for the following reasons....
> 
> 1, they already support the fight financially albeit indirectly
> 2, shows serve no purpose to us (shop owners) at all
> 3, breeders generally dont support their local reptile shop they would rather sell animals at low prices at show than to a shop
> 4, shops are constantly getting slagged on these forums as being over priced
> 5, the list can go on but ask any shop keeper (back me up guys and girls) we generally on a whole derive no benefit from reptile shows? unless someone wants to show me differently?
> 
> My advice would be go after Exo terra as they love taking your money


Regardless, reptile shops have survived, people are still spending money in there, so to prohibit you from trading would affect you, yes?


----------



## mstypical

Lil_nightmare said:


> Whilst i support both the IHS/FBH wholeheartedly im going to look into setting up my own group/website to further support the work they are doing.
> 
> Now i just need a name and support. :no1:


I'm off all Summer.... student life! I will help absolutely

I don't agree with the Anti-APA page on FB, not moderated professionally at all, I don't want that to be our representation!


----------



## mikeyb

Lil_nightmare said:


> No no no no no!!!!! If we do something like that then i can guarantee you it will be made a lot more public then what they are doing. Then where do we stand?


thing is the death threats and the bomb threats need to be taken to the papers then the police have no choice to take action against them. there actions are no different to alkeda's and i hate to say it but we need to fight fire with fire and make them go running into the foothills like parasites


----------



## andy007

LFBP-NEIL said:


> I sound like a right pessimistic git tonight, but dont be too suprised if your local reptile shop is less than enthusiastic about this for the following reasons....
> 
> 1, they already support the fight financially albeit indirectly
> 2, shows serve no purpose to us (shop owners) at all
> 3, breeders generally dont support their local reptile shop they would rather sell animals at low prices at show than to a shop
> 4, shops are constantly getting slagged on these forums as being over priced
> 5, the list can go on but ask any shop keeper (back me up guys and girls) we generally on a whole derive no benefit from reptile shows? unless someone wants to show me differently?
> 
> My advice would be go after Exo terra as they love taking your money


On the whole yes you're correct. 

Exo are the main sponsors of the Dome event BTW


----------



## Lil_nightmare

mikeyb said:


> thing is the death threats and the bomb threats need to be taken to the papers then the police have no choice to take action against them. there actions are no different to alkeda's and i hate to say it but we need to fight fire with fire and make them go running into the foothills like parasites


But unless the companys that have been threatened come forward and say so then its all rumors and hearsay!


----------



## mstypical

mikeyb said:


> thing is the death threats and the bomb threats need to be taken to the papers then the police have no choice to take action against them. there actions are no different to alkeda's and i hate to say it but we need to fight fire with fire and make them go running into the foothills like parasites


No, we really don't, you aren't helping us at all. Letthem show themselves to be the extremists that they are, we are not.


----------



## mikeyb

this sounds bad but if anyone knows the actual full names of the apa agents involved in this but i can point people in the right direction to finding these individuals home addresses :whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:for the agency i work for i was top trace agent 2 years in a row u can find anything about anyone on the net if u know where too look


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

mstypical said:


> Regardless, reptile shops have survived, people are still spending money in there, so to prohibit you from trading would affect you, yes?


 Yes definitely, in fact i believe that will be their next attack by proposing that pet shops are manned 24/7 making them unviable propositions, that is why we support wholesalers that donate to REPTA and according to their last published accounts have £60,000 in cash assets waiting to be used.


----------



## em_40

mikeyb said:


> thing is the death threats and the bomb threats need to be taken to the papers then the police have no choice to take action against them. there actions are no different to alkeda's and i hate to say it but we need to fight fire with fire and make them go running into the foothills like parasites


I fight fire with water :hmm:

Do not use water on electrical fires XD


----------



## mrcriss

LFBP-NEIL said:


> I sound like a right pessimistic git tonight, but dont be too suprised if your local reptile shop is less than enthusiastic about this for the following reasons....
> 
> 1, they already support the fight financially albeit indirectly
> 2, shows serve no purpose to us (shop owners) at all
> 3, breeders generally dont support their local reptile shop they would rather sell animals at low prices at show than to a shop
> 4, shops are constantly getting slagged on these forums as being over priced
> 5, the list can go on but ask any shop keeper (back me up guys and girls) we generally on a whole derive no benefit from reptile shows? unless someone wants to show me differently?
> 
> My advice would be go after Exo terra as they love taking your money


I know of many shops that go to Donny and buy animals to stock their vivs


----------



## mikeyb

Lil_nightmare said:


> But unless the companys that have been threatened come forward and say so then its all rumors and hearsay!


last show was shut down due to a bomb threat and wat did the police and justice system do absolutely jack which is why u get teenagers burning down half of london


----------



## mstypical

LFBP-NEIL said:


> Yes definitely, in fact i believe that will be their next attack by proposing that pet shops are manned 24/7 making them unviable propositions, that is why we support wholesalers that donate to REPTA and according to their last published accounts have £60,000 in cash assets waiting to be used.


So do I, and even though I have bought from breeders I have 3 shops close to me which are very convenient for food, shed-aid, supplements, etc, and I will support them however I can too.


----------



## Row'n'Bud

mikeyb said:


> this sounds bad but if anyone knows the actual full names of the apa agents involved in this but i can point people in the right direction to finding these individuals home addresses :whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:for the agency i work for i was top trace agent 2 years in a row u can find anything about anyone on the net if u know where too look


I know you feel you're helping here but if anything was to happen a member of those carrot crunchers who's door is the first that CID are knocking on the next morning after your last few pots on here ????....think before you type as not only will you make yourself look guilty but as these idiots are following this thread you're simply fanning their flames


----------



## Lil_nightmare

which mod would i need to contact about getting a site announcement possibly made about our course of actions?

As i think people are getting side tracked that it is only reptiles. 

Exotics are anything not native!

So

Mammels
Birds
Amphibians

etc etc

Know someone with a parrot or the like? Direct them to read the APAs stance on exotic birds!


----------



## andy007

mikeyb said:


> this sounds bad but if anyone knows the actual full names of the apa agents involved in this but i can point people in the right direction to finding these individuals home addresses :whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:for the agency i work for i was top trace agent 2 years in a row u can find anything about anyone on the net if u know where too look


Mikey, as a friend, please give this line up. It serves no purpose and only gives the anti's more fuel. We, as in reptile keepers, are the law abiding side to this conflict so lets keep it that way.


----------



## mrcriss

There's a lot of veggie-hating going on here


----------



## em_40

mrcriss said:


> There's a lot of veggie-hating going on here


Yeh, I'm feeling that too...


----------



## andy007

mrcriss said:


> There's a lot of veggie-hating going on here





em_40 said:


> Yeh, I'm feeling that too...


I like peas:2thumb:


----------



## Tall0ne

mrcriss said:


> There's a lot of veggie-hating going on here


cucumbers lettuce carrots beetroot fook em all :lol2:


----------



## Lil_nightmare

mrcriss said:


> There's a lot of veggie-hating going on here





em_40 said:


> Yeh, I'm feeling that too...



Veggies are welcome : victory: I have no issue with anyone's way of life (negating all heinous crimes and abusers) until they are trying to impact my way of life


----------



## em_40

andy007 said:


> I like peas:2thumb:


Me too!!


----------



## westie1

I agree that the home breeders and shows don't help the trade but then again if everyone was to pay shop prices (including mine) for everything the hobby would be much smaller. If this gets stopped on grounds of tropical disease, inapropriate care or the rotation of the earth on a Sunday it won't stop till its over then its buy buy live food margins (which is the only thing that offsets poor livestock sales due to shows ect.) and hello guinea pigs and mice!


----------



## inkyjoe

this was on one of the anti APA pages on facebook (find them and like them folks), it is a link to top boy from the APA, clifford warwick, and his discrediting credentials
Clifford Warwick, Expert or B.Bs.D.? - PJBoosinger

this is sooo crooked


----------



## andy007

westie1 said:


> I agree that the home breeders and shows don't help the trade but then again if everyone was to pay shop prices (including mine) for everything the hobby would be much smaller. If this gets stopped on grounds of tropical disease, inapropriate care or the rotation of the earth on a Sunday it won't stop till its over then its buy buy live food margins (which is the only thing that offsets poor livestock sales due to shows ect.) and hello guinea pigs and mice!


I don't think livestock sales at shows has much impact on sales at our shop, but then again we have to travel for a minimum of 4 hours to get to the closest show. Although sales were down for the first three months of 2012, as they were in most industries, they have picked up considerably mid April.


----------



## trogdorable

mstypical said:


> I'm off all Summer.... student life! I will help absolutely
> 
> I don't agree with the Anti-APA page on FB, not moderated professionally at all, I don't want that to be our representation!



ive liked those pages on fb purely to show that there is a large community out there that oppose and will fight what they are doing. but i agree, i think we need more public representation that arent poorly worded fb pages.


----------



## Lil_nightmare

In regards to pet shops not being interested or effected.

The majority of my equipment and animals have come from one particular shop.

Also when people ask about exotics i always tell them about the good local shops in their area. 

I know damn well that I could get anything they want on the private market cheaper then the shops BUT I also know without the shops alot of people would never have entered the hobby and i believe finding the private market should be part of the learning curve.

Peoples first call should be their local shop, shows people new to the hobby just how expensive it can be and may make them thinks twice if they are unable to afford it!


----------



## westie1

andy007 said:


> I don't think livestock sales at shows has much impact on sales at our shop, but then again we have to travel for a minimum of 4 hours to get to the closest show. Although sales were down for the first three months of 2012, as they were in most industries, they have picked up considerably mid April.


I ment more the home breeder doing reps at wholesale prices, forum trade n the likes.


----------



## andy007

Lil_nightmare said:


> In regards to pet shops not being interested or effected.
> 
> The majority of my equipment and animals have come from one particular shop.
> 
> Also when people ask about exotics i always tell them about the good local shops in their area.
> 
> I know damn well that I could get anything they want on the private market cheaper then the shops BUT I also know without the shops alot of people would never have entered the hobby and i believe finding the private market should be part of the learning curve.
> 
> Peoples first call should be their local shop, shows people new to the hobby just how expensive it can be and may make them thinks twice if they are unable to afford it!


I agree with you here, if people didn't get into the hobby through shops there would be less keepers out there that go on to use shows and private sales.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Lil_nightmare said:


> In regards to pet shops not being interested or effected.
> 
> The majority of my equipment and animals have come from one particular shop.
> 
> Also when people ask about exotics i always tell them about the good local shops in their area.
> 
> I know damn well that I could get anything they want on the private market cheaper then the shops BUT I also know without the shops alot of people would never have entered the hobby and i believe finding the private market should be part of the learning curve.
> 
> Peoples first call should be their local shop, shows people new to the hobby just how expensive it can be and may make them thinks twice if they are unable to afford it!


you should be praised, you are the 1 in a 1000 that gives a stuff! the problem is the 999 people that will ask - "wheres the cheapest place i can buy a (insert item here)"


----------



## andy007

westie1 said:


> I ment more the home breeder doing reps at wholesale prices, forum trade n the likes.


I would say that approx 70% of my customers that buy animals are new to the hobby. I also have a very loyal customer base that return week in week out With me running a shop and my wife, Sweetcorn on here, breeding from home I can see we have a completely different customer base.


----------



## westie1

andy007 said:


> I agree with you here, if people didn't get into the hobby through shops there would be less keepers out there that go on to use shows and private sales.


Goes to show how the whole hobby relies on each other and needs to help each other. 

Nice to see unity on this forum its just a real shame its due to the cercumstances.


----------



## JamesJ

inkyjoe said:


> this was on one of the anti APA pages on facebook (find them and like them folks), it is a link to top boy from the APA, clifford warwick, and his discrediting credentials
> Clifford Warwick, Expert or B.Bs.D.? - PJBoosinger
> 
> this is sooo crooked





Chris Newman said:


> Clifford is a former reptile dealer/smuggler, now alleged scientist! Some confusion over what actually qualifications he holds, was touted as having a doctorate from Copenhagen University, but they never heard of him!


Quoted from this thread from 2010.

I think he just likes to make himself sound important :lol2:


----------



## Lil_nightmare

*Right i am looking to get some kind of group going.

I hope we will have peoples full support and its not just all bluff on the forums.

The name i have come up with is Society for the Protection of Exotic Pets (SPEP)

I will looking for people to write FACTUAL articles on the keeping of exotics to post on the webste when it is up and running. Also banner/graphic makers etc

Also if there is any legal issues on saying we are a society. 
*
*I want this to be as professional as possible so we dont look like some fall apart, unorganized yobs!*


----------



## westie1

andy007 said:


> I would say that approx 70% of my customers that buy animals are new to the hobby. I also have a very loyal customer base that return week in week out With me running a shop and my wife, Sweetcorn on here, breeding from home I can see we have a completely different customer base.


Yeah seems that way, we are at the mercy of the wholesalers unless I find local private breeders lol. Would be diffrent if I owned it but alas I'm a minion lmao.
We are quite a small concern on a garden center too so more day out go walk round garden center types lol

Anyway back to the fight!


----------



## Lil_nightmare

I have contactd athar(person, mod who i cant remember how to spell) about getting a site wide announcement about what we are doing to combat this.

PLEASE if you want to help contact me VIA PM with suggestions and anything you think you can personally do to help. :no1:


----------



## andy007

westie1 said:


> Yeah seems that way, we are at the mercy of the wholesalers unless I find local private breeders lol. Would be diffrent if I owned it but alas I'm a minion lmao.
> We are quite a small concern on a garden center too so more day out go walk round garden center types lol
> 
> Anyway back to the fight!


Same here, we are in a garden centre. I don't own it but run the reptile department. There are lots of breeders that will sell to shops. Even this evening I've been offered Chameleons and Boas. It's just a case of getting yourselves known and trusted

And rainy days at garden centres:devil:

Oops yeh, back to the real issue


----------



## Lil_nightmare

LFBP-NEIL said:


> you should be praised, you are the 1 in a 1000 that gives a stuff! the problem is the 999 people that will ask - "wheres the cheapest place i can buy a (insert item here)"


Thank you! I still visit the reptile shop in question when i can and always asking for advice from them even though I have moved 40miles away!

I think as a community we need to support the good shops and stamp out the bad ones.

If we can be seen to fighting the good fight within our community then the Antis wont have a leg to stand on!


----------



## westie1

Il start looking around for published papers which came about from captive studies and any thriving species which are at risk in the wild.

Ppl feel free to help.

Be aware though for every fore there will be an against, we have to show the against is a minority


----------



## Lil_nightmare

A well priced, easy to use webhost is also needed if anyone knows of any please


----------



## racingbrett

westie1 said:


> Il start looking around for published papers which came about from captive studies and any thriving species which are at risk in the wild.
> 
> Ppl feel free to help.
> 
> Be aware though for every fore there will be an against, we have to show the against is a minority



sorry havnt read the whole thread but if im getting what u say correct it might be worth looking for papers on crested gecko's, rediscovered not to long ago if im not mistaken now believed to be extinct in the wild but thriving within the hobby.


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

westie1 said:


> Il start looking around for published papers which came about from captive studies and any thriving species which are at risk in the wild.
> 
> Ppl feel free to help.
> 
> Be aware though for every fore there will be an against, we have to show the against is a minority


 
You might find the blue iguana recovery programe interesting for a period they are kept in captivity before they are released into the wild, a few years ago it was feared due to a natural disaster that they could have been wiped out, they asked for donations, to build numbers back up and offer facilitys for what the young iguanas needed after the disaster hit , infact I beleive most iguana species are threatned to some point or another, and many efforts of conservation and captivity have been very beneficial.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Lil_nightmare said:


> *Right i am looking to get some kind of group going.
> 
> I hope we will have peoples full support and its not just all bluff on the forums.
> 
> The name i have come up with is Society for the Protection of Exotic Pets (SPEP)
> 
> I will looking for people to write FACTUAL articles on the keeping of exotics to post on the webste when it is up and running. Also banner/graphic makers etc
> 
> Also if there is any legal issues on saying we are a society.
> *
> *I want this to be as professional as possible so we dont look like some fall apart, unorganized yobs!*


I admire what you are trying to do, but dont be suprised if it falls flat as its all been tried before, see this thread...http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...n/49644-five-years-go-downwards-counting.html

the Only way you can all help now, is get behind Chris Newman and the FBH put some cash in their paypal account and pay for that high court barrister anything else is well intentioned but largely superficial at this moment in time.


----------



## andy007

Lil_nightmare said:


> A well priced, easy to use webhost is also needed if anyone knows of any please


Webs.com is who we use. Both webbies in my sig are with them.


----------



## westie1

andy007 said:


> Same here, we are in a garden centre. I don't own it but run the reptile department. There are lots of breeders that will sell to shops. Even this evening I've been offered Chameleons and Boas. It's just a case of getting yourselves known and trusted
> 
> And rainy days at garden centres:devil:
> 
> Oops yeh, back to the real issue


Lmao tell me about it!
We have fish regulars but trying to poah rep customers lol.
Only had reps since april early days yet but as I had to beg to get them and i keep them and have begun breeding myself i wana see the hobby thrive, the growth in this sector is huge and it would be a shame to lose it


There are more reps than dogs in the uk now, the support is there!


----------



## Lil_nightmare

LFBP-NEIL said:


> I admire what you are trying to do, but dont be suprised if it falls flat as its all been tried before, see this thread...http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...n/49644-five-years-go-downwards-counting.html
> 
> the Only way you can all help now, is get behind Chris Newman and the FBH put some cash in their paypal account and pay for that high court barrister anything else is well intentioned but largely superficial at this moment in time.


Well im gonna hope that this time will be different and i have to try, i have donated and joined the IHS but need to feel as though im doing something more.


----------



## Tall0ne

i use
https://order.1and1.co.uk/Instant?linkOrigin=login&linkId=hd.subnav.domains

for all my websites up time is good and control panel easy enough to use also have database options if you want forums etc


----------



## tdenton123

We are all talking about costs of solicitors and barristers surely there are some of you guys out there that can volunteer your services for our hobby 
Time to man up and stand up for your hobby and not be to scared of what your piers will think time to do the right thing and do something for free ( you never know you might get some paying business from some keepers on here if you prove yourselves) 
Just a thought


----------



## Lil_nightmare

I have contacted Chris and hope i can get his support in this. Have got a few suggestions for wehosting, just decided which best suits our needs as a community.

But the main point being without the support from people this is going to go no where.

So please find a way to help if you are able


----------



## swift_wraith

Lil_nightmare said:


> A well priced, easy to use webhost is also needed if anyone knows of any please


I have a server in USA available. I'll happily offer up some free webspace for you. Just need someone to sort out the site for you (I dont have any sitebuilders installed) and a domain name.
Contact me if you want to take it further.


----------



## Nikkeh

I've pasted the status, and 6 of my friends have already copied and pasted it for me, and only one of them owns reptiles! I can't afford to donate much, but i can sure as hell nag everyone on my facebook list to help out.


----------



## Lil_nightmare

swift_wraith said:


> I have a server in USA available. I'll happily offer up some free webspace for you. Just need someone to sort out the site for you (I dont have any sitebuilders installed) and a domain name.
> Contact me if you want to take it further.


That is very appreciated but as m inept i need a site builder, i have found a good hosting that at the basics is £1 a month going to see how i get on with it


----------



## SnakeBreeder

LFBP-NEIL said:


> I admire what you are trying to do, but dont be suprised if it falls flat as its all been tried before, see this thread...http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...n/49644-five-years-go-downwards-counting.html
> 
> the Only way you can all help now, is get behind Chris Newman and the FBH put some cash in their paypal account and pay for that high court barrister anything else is well intentioned but largely superficial at this moment in time.


Agreed, Best to have a united front than have a few people going off on their own and maybe undermining the case of the IHS and FBH, : victory:


----------



## Lil_nightmare

SnakeBreeder said:


> Agreed, Best to have a united front than have a few people going off on their own and maybe undermining the case of the IHS and FBH, : victory:


Im not looking to undermind them, i am looking to support them! Im not going to be doing the 3rd person heresay i have heard this that or the other. It will be facts that are able to be backed up in writing only. Im very cautious that this is not going to turn into soapboc that people use to vent their emotions and personal views on : victory:


----------



## inkyjoe

i really think the MOST helpful thing we can all be doing, is taking some of the money from our donny funds, and donating it to FBS/IHS, encouraging others to do the same, and leaving the experts to deal with it how they feel fit! they really need financial support now, first and foremost


----------



## Nikkeh

I know i'm probably clutching at straws here, but i have a friend who is in her last year at university, training to become a barrister. I know she wouldn't be able to stand up in court or anything like that. But would there be anything she could do to help?


----------



## wretchedprocess

Wow, some introduction to the state of the reptile hobby in the UK! I joined the IHS last week before I knew about any of this (possibly before it happened), and I just donated to the FBH as well. I'm going to the conference and will be around for the show-or-not-show as well. But oh my, I didn't know how bad it was over here!

I'm from the US, and I've only been in the UK for a few months. We have the infamous Python Ban, yes, but I want to tell you guys that you have it *much* worse over here. My old herp society had their annual show a couple of weeks ago, in a major conference center in the middle of the city (Seattle). We got favorable coverage on the news, probably a couple thousand people showed up, and there were no protesters at all. Because we do not get them at home. We're still under attack, of course, but it is nowhere near this bad. I joined the IHS and signed up for the conference because I wanted to help out. Apparently much more help is required than I knew.

I'm a little horrified. Not by any of you, of course (well, maybe a couple of you, but not the good ones). I don't know much about the issues yet-- I will obviously be learning a great deal about them this weekend. But I want to encourage everyone to do whatever they can. Donating seems like a good place to start. And a peaceful assembly outside of the Dome, if the show is cancelled, is worth a bit of travel and a few hours of your Sunday. Think of it as a protest, or a counter-protest, of sorts. But definitely think Gandhi rather than bomb threats! That's their thing, I am told. 

Don't be intimidated, and don't be apathetic. I am not yet sure what we can do. But I am going to find out. We all need to do the same. 

I feel like I'm giving an inspirational speech here, despite being entirely unqualified to do so. But what the Hell-- *WHO'S WITH ME?*


----------



## MCEE

stevenrudge said:


> l'm sorry to have to say this and l've said this before,we are wasting our time with show's or breeders meeting where we can sell livestock,the game is over and they have won this battle,the sooner we can get our heads round this and move on the better,threatening to take the council to court is a joke that's going no where.
> Ladys and Gentleman its time to forget about this and move on


Are you always this defeatest or is its that you are an APA "whistleblower"?
'Nuff said.


----------



## ophidianman

andy007 said:


> I like peas:2thumb:


I hate peas


----------



## leponi

When will we know if we can but or not 


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?svy52g


----------



## MCEE

Until we know of the outcome of the court hearing, people should keep calm and not let their passions dictate their comments, until they know what is going on. I have read some downright ridiculous remarks..."we should do this to the APA and we should do that to the APA..." These comments are not only childish but just by merely posting them you play into the hands of the very people that caused this situation in the first place. I believe one of the APA tweets has already stated that they (the APA) are starting to cause "ripples". Do not allow those ripples turn into waves and then floods.
At the moment, at least, we must deal with one issue at a time. Ignoring the APA can add more strength to our argument than kneejerk reactions. Just let Mr Newan and the like do what they need to do for now. They are in a better position to fight this that we "forum mortals" and when our help is required in any way they will ask for it.

As for this court hearing, I hear a few people criticise it but it shows that the hobby will not be dictated to in this manner and will not bow to bully tactics, unlike the cowardly councils. Also, as I read it, I do not believe the hearing is about whether hobbyists and breeders have the legal right to sell animals at venues such as this but is hearing concerning breach of contract, where the legalities of hobyist/breeder sales may play a part in the evidence for the claim for breach of contract against the venue. The outcome will only effect the current event.

As a side, surely future shows should be organised at venues that are privately/corporately owned. Surely this will then keep out the "council owned" element and one less obsticle for the organisers to battle should this situation arise. Are the Kempton and Norwich shows in private facilities? Please correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## SiUK

good luck in court today, even if this goes through this will be the last Donny event at that venue


----------



## charlesthompson

we have been here before, this is the cyclical nature of the shows. i remember the mid 90's. As soon as the member private breeders meeting became public the hornets nest was opened. Plus having tables with 100k+ on public display (on a single table) may be a bit gratuitous.

Back to clandestine shows in barns.

What is happening here is nothing new, any one whos been around this hobby for a while will remember. The hobby survived and it will again.


----------



## stokesy

yeah goodluck for today guys :2thumb:

I can't believe that doncastor dome did this so close to the event, If they felt they wanted to bow to the APA why not just refuse a rebooking rather than all this -

Big thanks to chris and all at the FBH and IHS who stand up and represent us all :no1:


----------



## johnc79

All the best for today. Im already an IHS member and will donate to the FBH today. Let's pull together and send theses fools packing!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chalky76

Yep all fingers and toes crossed


----------



## Montage_Morphs

Enough with the speeches folks, donate donate donate! Actions speak louder than words, and lawyers don't do shit for free!


----------



## Lil_nightmare

Got everything crossed for today! Good luck!


----------



## storm

i have donated, have been a member of the IHS for 5 years anyway. keeping everything crossed x


----------



## Guy_Brooks

It feels like another world war!

Good luck today guys!


----------



## hogboy

inkyjoe said:


> i really think the MOST helpful thing we can all be doing, is taking some of the money from our donny funds, and donating it to FBS/IHS, encouraging others to do the same, and leaving the experts to deal with it how they feel fit! they really need financial support now, first and foremost



Spot on Joe :2thumb: :2thumb:

*Support the FBH
Donate here
*Federation of British Herpetologists


----------



## Jaymz

Donated and all the best for today. 

Jay.


----------



## mstypical

Lil_nightmare said:


> I have contactd athar(person, mod who i cant remember how to spell) about getting a site wide announcement about what we are doing to combat this.
> 
> PLEASE if you want to help contact me VIA PM with suggestions and anything you think you can personally do to help. :no1:


Your page is here sweetie pie: https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Society-for-the-Protection-of-Exotic-Pets/373022526095590

Please 'like' the page on Facebook if you have an account, no action is needed just a show of numbers, they only have 300-something members on their Facebook page, we have thousands of dedicated herpers just on this forum... like and share, never know when we might need to draw on our numbers :


----------



## inkyjoe

very best of luck for today. I sincerely hope our donations help. :no1: I hope there was enough of us who actually took it seriously


----------



## a33272

Al the best for today. 

PS please start new thread when you know the court result to save the people who don't want to have to trawl through all this to find out what happened.


----------



## SnakeBreeder

I saw this and thought it may be helpful.:2thumb:

Complete Protection of, and Prevention of the Abolishment of, the Herpetological Pet Trade in the UK

Everyone should sign to show their support.


----------



## PrincessStegosaurus

Signed and donated : victory:

Good luck for today. Keep us updated. Fingers crossed.


----------



## Macsexotics

Do we have a time for the court hearing today yet?


----------



## Big_Rich

SnakeBreeder said:


> I saw this and thought it may be helpful.:2thumb:
> 
> Complete Protection of, and Prevention of the Abolishment of, the Herpetological Pet Trade in the UK
> 
> Everyone should sign to show their support.


Done! & donated to the FBH.


----------



## madaboutreptiles

The FBH Facebook page is looking a little lonely, why not show some support on there too?

Federation of British Herpetologists | Facebook


----------



## Brittanicus

We are all on tenterhooks waiting for the decion to come in.
The best of luck guys!


----------



## evoman

*what to do*

I see the argument in this thread that people should still show up at the show if they go ahead and ban sale of animals. However, I believe that it makes more sense for everyone to cancel their hotels and not spend any money in Doncaster this weekend. The council and its residents will suffer financially if the show is entirely cancelled, and that might have a larger effect on their opinion than would showing up and spending money locally, but not being able to buy and sell animals.

Of course, the alternative is to negotiate purchased at the show, but to do the transactions off site during or after the show...


----------



## Guy_Brooks

madaboutreptiles said:


> The FBH Facebook page is looking a little lonely, why not show some support on there too?
> 
> Federation of British Herpetologists | Facebook


Joined


----------



## Horny Toad

Big_Rich said:


> Is donating money all we should do?? Or can we take a more active role?


For the time being, yes its pretty much all we need to do. We need funds, and we need them fast. The begging tin is being passed around virtually all areas within the industry - I will spend time today myself pulling strings for bigger donations.

Perhaps, we may need people to have a more "active role" in the future - and perhaps it will scare people enough to realise that there is a serious threat and to work together better. And from that I mean everybody - from shops, wholesalers, clubs, individuals and everybody else inbetween.

But for the time being, I ask again - please donate whatever you can afford to the FBH on the links on this thread. Otherwise you may lose your current lifestyle and freedom of animal keeping - its that serious.

My original plea posted yesterday evening;

I had a chat with Richard Brook (the IHS show organiser) this evening. We have had close contact with each other, for several reasons, for the last couple of months. We have been very aware of what was likely to happen with regards to holding this show, and others for the future. He requested this evening that key members of the Herpetological community like myself need to "rally the troops". I have been keeping reptiles now for over 35 years, held top positions within the IHS and own two well know reptile supply businesses in the UK. I have seen the hobby develop from "loners in bedrooms" to a mainstream industry - and also seen the evolution of the likes of APA and other so called animal welfare groups.

Now, it's time for the cold, hard truth. If you want to maintain your hobby, your industry (if you are commercial; ie shop / wholesaler) and your general passion for keeping animals we, as a collective movement, need money. I quickly flicked through this thread, many have asked what they can do to help, others have suggested giving the FBH donations - and that's exactly what we all need to do. If we allow this show to fail, we are on the slippery slope to losing our life of keeping animals (note I don't just say exotics). I am aware how much money the barrister bill is, just up until today, it is a scary amount currently funded by the IHS, FBH and industry leaders like myself. We need money.

Please follow the FBH Pay Pal links already on this thread. I urge all clubs and shops to ask for donations and forward the monies raised to the FBH. If you can afford a fiver, do it - we cannot lose this fight due to running out of funds. Help now, donate - Animal welfare groups prey on well meaning people and collect funds, they can be regarded as reasonably cash rich. If you can give more, please, it's very important that it's done now. Right now.

I will post more tomorrow, and will also start collecting donations through both Coast to Coast and Zoo Logic. I suggest any others who have the ability to collect do the same. Do I need to get on my knees? Please, collect funds for the FBH now.


----------



## storm

madaboutreptiles said:


> The FBH Facebook page is looking a little lonely, why not show some support on there too?
> 
> Federation of British Herpetologists | Facebook


done and shared...


----------



## Big_Rich

v-max said:


> For the time being, yes its pretty much all we need to do. We need funds, and we need them fast. The begging tin is being passed around virtually all areas within the industry - I will spend time today myself pulling strings for bigger donations.
> 
> Perhaps, we may need people to have a more "active role" in the future - and perhaps it will scare people enough to realise that there is a serious threat and to work together better. And from that I mean everybody - from shops, wholesalers, clubs, individuals and everybody else inbetween.
> 
> But for the time being, I ask again - please donate whatever you can afford to the FBH on the links on this thread. Otherwise you may lose your current lifestyle and freedom of animal keeping - its that serious.


Already donated, if there is anything more we could all do in the future im sure everyone here would be willing to do whatever is needed of them.


----------



## madaboutreptiles

Big_Rich said:


> Already donated, if there is anything more we could all do in the future im sure everyone here would be willing to do whatever is needed of them.


Well done that man....

Did I mention the FBH facebook page needs a boost?

:2thumb:


----------



## Big_Rich

madaboutreptiles said:


> *Well done that man....*
> 
> Did I mention the FBH facebook page needs a boost?
> 
> :2thumb:


Cant tell if sarcastic or not:lol2:


----------



## madaboutreptiles

Big_Rich said:


> Cant tell if sarcastic or not:lol2:


Not sarcastic?

What have I done? :gasp:


----------



## Big_Rich

madaboutreptiles said:


> Not sarcastic?
> 
> What have I done? :gasp:


"Well done that man......"

Sorry I must have read this wrong...it was a late night last night lol


----------



## Meko

Big_Rich said:


> Already donated, if there is anything more we could all do in the future im sure everyone here would be willing to do whatever is needed of them.



Now over in 18+ we have things like this http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/off-topic-adult-18/851561-rfuk-charidee-auction.html

That one was for a member on here but they started for proper charity causes. 

for those who don't have 18+ access, it's just a standard auction where people give up stuff they want to / don't need / whatever and people bid on it, or just donate some money.
For the handful of people who take part in 18+ we raise a fairly decent amount. With the amount of people on the normal sections it wouldn't be too hard to raise a hell of a lot more, especially with people throwing in un-needed reptile / animal stuff


----------



## markliz

Good luck to those in court today.....lets hope we can get the Doncaster show back on track. Got everything crossed x


----------



## Lil_nightmare

Despite a few people saying it isnt worth it, im still working on a group/website to help support the IHS/FBH. We are going to need all sort of research done so if anyone would like to help please PM me directly


----------



## westie1

ophidianman said:


> I hate peas


My friend calls them little balls of misery lmao


----------



## madaboutreptiles

Lil_nightmare said:


> Despite a few people saying it isnt worth it, im still working on a group/website to help support the IHS/FBH. We are going to need all sort of research done so if anyone would like to help please PM me directly


Of course its worth it, anyway we can spread the word and raise funds has got to be good

keep on it :2thumb:


----------



## westie1

Just donated its really easy to do if you have paypall and no minimum amount required

good luck


----------



## Athravan

I've put up a global announcement in all sections to this thread, hopefully to raise awareness and get more support/feedback for the FBH/IHS, if anyone has further information that should be announced globally don't hesitate to PM myself, GRB or any of the global moderators so that we can get the information shared in the best way possible.


----------



## REDDEV1L

Good Luck in court.

Also - The link (Federation of British Herpetologists) posted allover this thread for the FBH appears to be a VERY old site (With numerous dead links and no recent info)

Their Facebook page links to Federation of British Herpetologists - which contains newer info & is presumably their official page.


----------



## miss_ferret

SnakeBreeder said:


> I saw this and thought it may be helpful.:2thumb:
> 
> Complete Protection of, and Prevention of the Abolishment of, the Herpetological Pet Trade in the UK
> 
> Everyone should sign to show their support.


is anyone else having trouble with this? e-petitions site keeps saying my email has already been used so i cant sign it?


----------



## Lil_nightmare

miss_ferret said:


> is anyone else having trouble with this? e-petitions site keeps saying my email has already been used so i cant sign it?


the petition has been around awhile so you may have already signed it


----------



## evoman

Lil_nightmare said:


> the petition has been around awhile so you may have already signed it


I had no problems signing it. Looks like there are ca. 1500 signatures - no idea if that is seen as a decent number, but hopefully this current situation will give it a boost.

I also think that it is critical to make donations, not because of the Doncaster show and situation that the IHS are facing, but more importantly, a court victory here could be a boost for the broader cause.

Of course, the whole situation is still likely to hamper the ability of groups to secure venues for future events. A total shame, and I really don't understand the opposition to these events...


----------



## Lil_nightmare

evoman said:


> I had no problems signing it. Looks like there are ca. 1500 signatures - no idea if that is seen as a decent number, but hopefully this current situation will give it a boost.
> 
> I also think that it is critical to make donations, not because of the Doncaster show and situation that the IHS are facing, but more importantly, a court victory here could be a boost for the broader cause.
> 
> Of course, the whole situation is still likely to hamper the ability of groups to secure venues for future events. A total shame, and I really don't understand the opposition to these events...


From hat i understand to get the petition heard in government it need 100,000 signatures


----------



## Brittanicus

Does anyone know roughly of what time the ruling is due?


----------



## batcode

hi been reading hopefully to get update but obv annoying see will hopefully find out later thu somewat confused as obv hopefully chris will be succesful but that will be against the dome wat about the council???? as its them that obv has put the pressure on the dome thu feel that was via backdoor approach does it open any issues from council??????hope dont offend just trying to get clearer picture also seen posts ref celebrities etc i know mark o'shea is very active in the rep world but what about others like nigel marvin ,steve backshaw as obv well known names puts more pressure on and obv will be in more of general public eye to get more suppurt and highlite the issues and threat that not just reptile keepers face but everyone who has any pet????and seen links to pertition but is it not worth someone time permitting to do one our selves ie if show carrys on cant 1 be put together and get sigs there as be hundreds if not thousands and could be set up at entrance wouldent take much just small table with a notice on wat for sure if post will get volunters to if need collect sigs im cioming on sunday and be willing to help thu out then obv could be sent to other shows,events poss pet shops even to companys of rep products as even there sigs helps and would be indirect suppurt


----------



## andy007

Brittanicus said:


> Does anyone know roughly of what time the ruling is due?


It was mentioned a few pages back that any announcement wouldn't be till around 5pm.


----------



## kirsten

Lil_nightmare said:


> Now a lot of you probably wont as you see it as pointless, But im determined to do as much as possible to battle the APA and because of the times think social media is the way to do it.
> 
> I have written a status and ask that everyone post it for say an hour, just to raise awareness, it is as follows:
> 
> I would like to call on all my ANIMAL LOVER friends to repost this if only for an hour!
> The @Animal Protection Agency is trying to get one of our annual reptile meetings shutdown at @Doncaster Dome Leisure Centre. They are using threats to scare the venue into BREACHING THE CONTRACT with The International Herpetological Society.
> 
> Now many of you may not like Reptiles but dont be fooled, if they win here then where will they go next? Horses, Dogs or Cats? What would you do to protect the animals you love???
> 
> Please repost to show the APA we will not go down without a fight and we will NOT let them take our passion from us!!!


posted


----------



## Brittanicus

It is going before the judge at 2pm.


----------



## Burmtastic

I hope all goes well but either way i will be going to show support on Sunday ... I just hope everyone else does


----------



## Ameliaxx

posted


----------



## Lil_nightmare

Burmtastic said:


> I hope all goes well but either way i will be going to show support on Sunday ... I just hope everyone else does


We will also be going regardless


----------



## AndyW

People need to respond to comments left on other sites. Exotic pets in Cork - Features - Cork Independent

Maybe someone good with words should respond.


----------



## Brittanicus

Without the judge ruling in favour of the IHS there is no show to go to according to the latest reply on page one from the Chief Executive
Of The Doncaster Culture and Leisure Trust.


----------



## Nodders

Brittanicus said:


> Without the judge ruling in favour of the IHS there is no show to go to according to the latest reply on page one from the Chief Executive
> Of The Doncaster Culture and Leisure Trust.


People know this and has been pointed out in the thread a few times , so what's your point ? 

Folks still want to show up just to support the whole trade , might not get anywhere but shows that people care about this .


----------



## Brittanicus

Nodders said:


> People know this and has been pointed out in the thread a few times , so what's your point ?
> 
> Folks still want to show up just to support the whole trade , might not get anywhere but shows that people care about this .


My point is, if there is no show then how can you turn up at it?
I will be in Doncaster amongst many others as a group of us are meeting up and have booked a hotel for the night before, but obviously if there is no show I will not be able to attend and show my support for something that isn't there.
Or does logic go too far above your head for you to be able to comprehend it?


----------



## batcode

*ref*

just saw the post ref ireland by andy w

surly the apa are dropping self in it as there accusing that all reps are fed live and state the harm does to snakes etc yet if they had facts rite they would surly know that it is against law to fed live unless insects!!!! as isnt this reason we have a frozen food industry for all types of animals yet in the wild wouldnt same apply its called nature reather there in captive all not bet most them eat meat isnt it in ways same its frozen,fresh may not be mice etc but still same sort thing isnt it please correct me if im wrong just if they had there way there be no animals anywhere as they be quite let animals go extinct yet y dont they do more use and stop there natural habitat being destroyed and stop animals becomind extinct flip surly the snow leperd etc are more important than pets all have they all just left preschool


----------



## Tarron

AndyW said:


> People need to respond to comments left on other sites. Exotic pets in Cork - Features - Cork Independent
> 
> Maybe someone good with words should respond.


This was left in comments by you know who:


by *ElaineAPA*
on _25/01/2012_

This article is shamelessly irresponsible and misleading. The exotic pet trade is known to involve about 90% mortality in the first year for these unfortunately traded animals. Reptiles, including bearded dragons and turtles, are wild animals that are stressed by life in cages. It is a pity that most vets don't know this! Feeding live prey to snakes can be inhumane, causing unnecessary stress and suffering for the prey animals and it can also lead to snakes being hurt by their prey! In the vast majority of cases live-feeding is totally unnecessary. Having exotic pets can also be bad for people. Not only has the Irish government issued formal health warnings against the keeping of reptiles as pets, but a recent study shows that people are 17 times more likely to get sick if they have a pet reptile in the home than if they don't! In fact, the major sector of the pet turtle trade was banned in the USA in 1975 because it caused 280,000 cases of human illness per year. 
Im going to prepare something to write back, it was published in January, but still stands now.


----------



## storm

miss_ferret said:


> is anyone else having trouble with this? e-petitions site keeps saying my email has already been used so i cant sign it?





Brittanicus said:


> Without the judge ruling in favour of the IHS there is no show to go to according to the latest reply on page one from the Chief Executive
> Of The Doncaster Culture and Leisure Trust.


do you have the link to this? x


----------



## batcode

*illness*

apart from a very small cases when has there ever been any thing in papers news etc ref people becomin ill,or even death from reptiles lol surly flu causes more health issues yet that seems be ok by them ive had numerous reps over 20 years never been ill from any of them as called hygine as its common sense to wash hands etc same as do when go toilet lol fairplay they come out with some rubbish and stupid reasons how hell can be takern seriously thu it is as wat they put common sense tells you that there not rite??????????


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

batcode said:


> just saw the post ref ireland by andy w
> 
> surly the apa are dropping self in it as there accusing that all reps are fed live and state the harm does to snakes etc yet if they had facts rite they would surly know that it is against law to fed live unless insects!!!! as isnt this reason we have a frozen food industry for all types of animals yet in the wild wouldnt same apply its called nature reather there in captive all not bet most them eat meat isnt it in ways same its frozen,fresh may not be mice etc but still same sort thing isnt it please correct me if im wrong just if they had there way there be no animals anywhere as they be quite let animals go extinct yet y dont they do more use and stop there natural habitat being destroyed and stop animals becomind extinct flip surly the snow leperd etc are more important than pets all have they all just left preschool


No its not, but this is one thing I had a rant at another member about the other day.

It is not illegal to feed live, it is strongly discouraged, it is illegal to cause them unessacery suffering (as in they will accept dead) and all other options had failed, it is illegal to feed live in public, but feeding live itself I don't beleive their is any law on it.

I can see the outlook they take though, all those idiots feeding live unessacerily and for enjoyment on youtube etc, does show us in a bad light, I don't think they relise that a good percentage of us don't like it either, it is not something to be enjoyed or be proud of if you have to resort to that.


----------



## Lil_nightmare

Salazare Slytherin said:


> No its not, but this is one thing I had a rant at another member about the other day.
> 
> It is not illegal to feed live, it is strongly discouraged, it is illegal to cause them unessacery suffering (as in they will accept dead) and all other options had failed, it is illegal to feed live in public, but feeding live itself I don't beleive their is any law on it.
> 
> I can see the outlook they take though, all those idiots feeding live unessacerily and for enjoyment, does show us in a bad light, I don't think they relise that a good percentage of us don't like it either.


Also dont realise the majority of the LIVE feeding videos are american where it is common practice...


----------



## wretchedprocess

Brittanicus said:


> My point is, if there is no show then how can you turn up at it?
> I will be in Doncaster amongst many others as a group of us are meeting up and have booked a hotel for the night before, but obviously if there is no show I will not be able to attend and show my support for something that isn't there.
> Or does logic go too far above your head for you to be able to comprehend it?


You're either being willfully obtuse or unintentionally so, and in neither case is it legitimate for you to castigate others for being stupid. Stop it. Obviously we can't go to a show which does not exist. However, we can still show up where it would have existed and make it clear how much popular support this thing has. It sounds as though you are doing the same thing. This is good. It is not, however, good for you to split verbal hairs and mock your fellow enthusiasts. It isn't helpful. We're all disappointed, but the other people on this thread are not the people to attack. You know what we mean when we say we're going to the show regardless. We mean we're going to occupy the space where the show was supposed to be even if they take it away from us.

Let's not get hysterical and lash out here. It's truly and utterly pointless.

I don't think you're actually trolling or I wouldn't respond. Please prove me right by ceasing to insult your fellow forum members.


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Lil_nightmare said:


> Also dont realise the majority of the LIVE feeding videos are american where it is common practice...


Yeah pretty much.


----------



## wretchedprocess

Lil_nightmare said:


> Also dont realise the majority of the LIVE feeding videos are american where it is common practice...


Actually, it isn't among the people I've known, and I've been part of the reptile community on both coasts. It's quite common to start stubborn babies on live once or twice, yes. But most people feed frozen over there too. Some do feed live, but they get yelled at a lot.


----------



## storm

Tarron said:


> This was left in comments by you know who:
> 
> 
> by *ElaineAPA*
> on _25/01/2012_
> 
> This article is shamelessly irresponsible and misleading. The exotic pet trade is known to involve about 90% mortality in the first year for these unfortunately traded animals. Reptiles, including bearded dragons and turtles, are wild animals that are stressed by life in cages. It is a pity that most vets don't know this! Feeding live prey to snakes can be inhumane, causing unnecessary stress and suffering for the prey animals and it can also lead to snakes being hurt by their prey! In the vast majority of cases live-feeding is totally unnecessary. Having exotic pets can also be bad for people. Not only has the Irish government issued formal health warnings against the keeping of reptiles as pets, but a recent study shows that people are 17 times more likely to get sick if they have a pet reptile in the home than if they don't! In fact, the major sector of the pet turtle trade was banned in the USA in 1975 because it caused 280,000 cases of human illness per year.
> Im going to prepare something to write back, it was published in January, but still stands now.


90% mortality in the first year? 17 times more likely to get sick? live feeding? wild animals? tut tut ms tolland... im not sure it is us that is misinformed... 

statistically speaking then going off what she is saying, i should have had over 100 animals die within a year, been sick for the last 8 years, miraculously 'found' and taken combination morphs from the wild along with the babies that have just hatched in my incubator cause they must be wild too... 

id like to see the statistics and evidence used to come to these conclusions... and i mean from legit people not crooked ones with made up letters after their name...


----------



## madaboutreptiles

storm said:


> 90% mortality in the first year? 17 times more likely to get sick? live feeding? wild animals? tut tut ms tolland... im not sure it is us that is misinformed...
> 
> statistically speaking then going off what she is saying, i should have had over 100 animals die within a year, been sick for the last 8 years, miraculously 'found' and taken combination morphs from the wild along with the babies that have just hatched in my incubator cause they must be wild too...
> 
> id like to see the statistics and evidence used to come to these conclusions... and i mean from legit people not crooked ones with made up letters after their name...


And I cant remember the last time a saw a wild caught Bearded Dragon Import : victory:


----------



## batcode

my apoligies ref live got it mixed up but as lil nightmare said the videos are mostly from us or some small minded individual but still the statement that apa put inacurate on most of it they seem be making accusations and making the law up so cant understand why has come to this as like chris and others have said no laws are being brokern if anything are being implemented in every way ie shows are well run there are vets etc to make sure is safe for all and run withing the guidelines and the law yet the council cant seen to be botherd to stand up and stick to the law but backdown and throw on to the dome spose there way not getting there hands dirty and put there heads in the sand by passing the buck


----------



## Lil_nightmare

batcode said:


> my apoligies ref live got it mixed up but as lil nightmare said the videos are mostly from us or some small minded individual but still the statement that apa put inacurate on most of it they seem be making accusations and making the law up so cant understand why has come to this as like chris and others have said no laws are being brokern if anything are being implemented in every way ie shows are well run there are vets etc to make sure is safe for all and run withing the guidelines and the law yet the council cant seen to be botherd to stand up and stick to the law but backdown and throw on to the dome spose there way not getting there hands dirty and put there heads in the sand by passing the buck


Not having a go but the full stop and return button are going to help you get your point across as it difficult to read one large block of text such as yours


----------



## Moley165

storm said:


> 90% mortality in the first year? 17 times more likely to get sick? live feeding? wild animals? tut tut ms tolland... im not sure it is us that is misinformed...
> 
> statistically speaking then going off what she is saying, i should have had over 100 animals die within a year, been sick for the last 8 years, miraculously 'found' and taken combination morphs from the wild along with the babies that have just hatched in my incubator cause they must be wild too...
> 
> id like to see the statistics and evidence used to come to these conclusions... and i mean from legit people not crooked ones with made up letters after their name...


LOL its so amazing isnt it a persons ability to just muster up figures and throw them together. 

i would happily put together some statistics together in a letter for anyone! and my figures are actually very close to the truth, they are as follows: 

100% of APA members are complete :censor::censor::censor::censor::censor: thats a censor for each letter i will let you guys fill the gaps! 

100% of there figures are complete :censor::censor::censor::censor::censor::censor::censor::censor: again please enjoy my swear word hangman! one letter per censor


and finally 98% of Reptile forum members care a great deal for their animals and actual show a great deal of pride in the ability to upkeep there animals health and welbeing! 

Hmmm better get working on my letter head lol


----------



## Brittanicus

wretchedprocess said:


> You're either being willfully obtuse or unintentionally so, and in neither case is it legitimate for you to castigate others for being stupid. Stop it. Obviously we can't go to a show which does not exist. However, we can still show up where it would have existed and make it clear how much popular support this thing has. It sounds as though you are doing the same thing. This is good. It is not, however, good for you to split verbal hairs and mock your fellow enthusiasts. It isn't helpful. We're all disappointed, but the other people on this thread are not the people to attack. You know what we mean when we say we're going to the show regardless. We mean we're going to occupy the space where the show was supposed to be even if they take it away from us.
> 
> Let's not get hysterical and lash out here. It's truly and utterly pointless.
> 
> I don't think you're actually trolling or I wouldn't respond. Please prove me right by ceasing to insult your fellow forum members.


The OP asked what my point was and I replied and stated what my point was.
I also think that if the show does fail to be held then any actions taken by members and other enthusiasts at the dome might well cause more damage to the IHS than any good that you think it might do them.
If they need to try and locate new locations for future shows then I don't think that protests held by members and other enthusiasts from the general public will help them secure these future locations.


----------



## Brittanicus

storm said:


> do you have the link to this? x


The letters are on page one of this thread Amanda. The letter I refer to is the second letter down in the thread that Chris received from 
Michael Hart
Chief Executive
Doncaster Culture and Leisure Trust.


----------



## batcode

sorry lil nightmare and all ref my grammer i have probs sometimes lol as dyslexia so do apoligise to all but was trying make genuine point


----------



## Lil_nightmare

batcode said:


> sorry lil nightmare and all ref my grammer i have probs sometimes lol as dyslexia so do apoligise to all but was trying make genuine point


I understand as my OH is dyslexic, just hit the enter button a few times when typing it ill help break it up a bit


----------



## George_Millett

Tarron said:


> This was left in comments by you know who:
> 
> 
> by *ElaineAPA*
> on _25/01/2012_
> 
> This article is shamelessly irresponsible and misleading. The exotic pet trade is known to involve about 90% mortality in the first year for these unfortunately traded animals. Reptiles, including bearded dragons and turtles, are wild animals that are stressed by life in cages. It is a pity that most vets don't know this! Feeding live prey to snakes can be inhumane, causing unnecessary stress and suffering for the prey animals and it can also lead to snakes being hurt by their prey! In the vast majority of cases live-feeding is totally unnecessary. Having exotic pets can also be bad for people. Not only has the Irish government issued formal health warnings against the keeping of reptiles as pets, but a recent study shows that people are 17 times more likely to get sick if they have a pet reptile in the home than if they don't! In fact, the major sector of the pet turtle trade was banned in the USA in 1975 because it caused 280,000 cases of human illness per year.
> Im going to prepare something to write back, it was published in January, but still stands now.


Quick question, was this published before or after the Advertising Standards Agency told them that they were a bunch of Lieing :censor::censor:.

Because if it was and they are still trying to pedal the same old bull:censor: surely we can go back to the ASA and say they have not learnt their lesson please find them some more. Or may be bypass the ASA and just take the APA to court for Libel/Slander with the ASA ruling as evidence.


----------



## storm

Brittanicus said:


> The letters are on page one of this thread Amanda. The letter I refer to is the second letter down in the thread that Chris received from
> Michael Hart
> Chief Executive
> Doncaster Culture and Leisure Trust.



so it is... thanks hun


----------



## wretchedprocess

Brittanicus said:


> The OP asked what my point was and I replied and stated what my point was.
> I also think that if the show does fail to be held then any actions taken by members and other enthusiasts at the dome might well cause more damage to the IHS than any good that you think it might do them.
> If they need to try and locate new locations for future shows then I don't think that protests held by members and other enthusiasts from the general public will help them secure these future locations.


Which is a good point, and has merit. And I am certainly not thinking of an active protest. It's possible that just showing up will also go awry, true. But I still think it's a good idea (plus have a hotel room booked and am going to the conference, so I'll be there regardless).

Contrary viewpoints and discussion are great. I was objecting to the last line of the post I responded to: "Or does logic go too far above your head for you to be able to comprehend it?" I suspect you can see why.


----------



## Guy_Brooks

wretchedprocess said:


> Which is a good point, and has merit. And I am certainly not thinking of an active protest. It's possible that just showing up will also go awry, true. But I still think it's a good idea (plus have a hotel room booked and am going to the conference, so I'll be there regardless).
> 
> Contrary viewpoints and discussion are great. I was objecting to the last line of the post I responded to: "Or does logic go too far above your head for you to be able to comprehend it?" I suspect you can see why.


I have to go as I've purchased a snake so if it is stopped then I need to meet the seller to arrange somewhere to make the transaction


----------



## Brittanicus

Guy_Brooks said:


> I have to go as I've purchased a snake so if it is stopped then I need to meet the seller to arrange somewhere to make the transaction


I am hoping that any sellers that have already sold any of their stock and agreed for the buyers to pick up at Doncaster will still go and enable the buyers to still collect from them. I have 5 boas that I have arranged to pick up off various people at Doncaster.
Hopefully we get a favourable verdict and everything goes ahead as planned.


----------



## Brittanicus

wretchedprocess said:


> Which is a good point, and has merit. And I am certainly not thinking of an active protest. It's possible that just showing up will also go awry, true. But I still think it's a good idea (plus have a hotel room booked and am going to the conference, so I'll be there regardless).
> 
> Contrary viewpoints and discussion are great. I was objecting to the last line of the post I responded to: "Or does logic go too far above your head for you to be able to comprehend it?" I suspect you can see why.


Anyway, it's no use any of us arguing, lets just all unite in the one thing we all have in common, "Our Love For Our Reptiles!"


----------



## wretchedprocess

Brittanicus said:


> Anyway, it's no use any of us arguing, lets just all unite in the one thing we all have in common, "Our Love For Our Reptiles!"


Sounds good to me! :no1:


----------



## Gar1on

AndyW said:


> People need to respond to comments left on other sites. Exotic pets in Cork - Features - Cork Independent
> 
> Maybe someone good with words should respond.


I posted a response, it is awaiting moderation so isnt showingyet. Not great, just quickly thought I would whip something up! 



> ElaineAPA, I am afraid it is you who is shamelessly irresponsible and misleading.
> 
> Let us begin by querying your statistic on the apparent 90% mortality rate of reptiles / exotic animals; do you have the evidence to back up this statistic or is it merely something you have pulled from a hat in an effort to rally support for your (lost) cause.
> 
> The reality is that 99% of the keepers of these animals are responsible and care for the creatures that they keep. We use a variety of equipment including thermostatically controlled heating systems, misting systems to maintain humidity, hygrometers and thermometers to monitor those and much more. We use this equipment so that we are able to ensure our reptiles thrive and live for a very long time.
> 
> There are, of course, a select few who genuinely neglect these animals - as people do with cats, dogs, rabbits etc. Unfortunately, there are also a few people who do not ensure the highest standards of reptile care as a result of lack of information. Perhaps, ElaineAPA, you should focus your efforts on educating people about the proper care of these animals as opposed to assuming that everyone that keeps them does so poorly. Such a suggestion is little more than slander, and has no basis in truth.
> 
> It is funny also that you should suggest that reptiles are 'stressed by life in cages'. To begin with, we do not use cages for our animals - I cannot imagine they hold the heat we provide for our reptiles very well. We use a variety of vivaria, most suited to the reptiles in question. We provide tanks adequately sized for the reptile we keep and once again, unless you are a true Dr. Dolittle, and can converse with reptiles, I would suggest that this claim is merely something you have conjured up in an attempt to discredit reptile keepers.
> 
> It may surprise you to know that snakes are generally agoraphobic, and will much prefer a smaller vivarium to a huge enclosure. Your misinformed opinion on this matter discredits you still further, Elaine.
> 
> Further, I would suggest anyone looking into this matter read up on Rhacodactylus ciliatus. These animals were once believed to be extinct but now thrive in captivity - they are categorical evidence that Elaine knows very little about the realities of exotic animal keeping.
> 
> I also want to clarify that very few reptile keepers feed their animals live. Those that do only do so in situations where they have no other option (for example where their snake will not take frozen - thawed rodents). I will not deny it can be a little stressful on the prey animal, but if the circumstances demand it, it is an unfortunate reality.
> 
> By the way, if a snake eating a mouse concerns you, I would suggest you start a new campaign against every single predatory animal in the wild. We wouldn't want the, stressing out their prey now, would we?
> 
> In regard to illnesses from reptiles, I have ,are the point before that you are no less likely to fall ill from handling reptiles than you are eating chicken, or in fact peanut butter... April 29, 2009 - Investigation Update: Outbreak of Salmonella Typhimurium Infections, 2008–2009 | Salmonella CDC. It comes down to personal hygiene and whether you are responsible enough to wash your hands after handling reptiles. If you don't, then I would suggest it is your own fault for failing to observe what most reptile keepers consider a standard process in the reptile handling procedure.
> 
> Elaine, I really could go on forever. The reality is your statistics have no citation or reference. You rarely, if ever, offer any evidence to back up your points and you have alread proved that your arguments are riddled with falsification and downright lies (see the Advertising Standards Agency's adjudication on Lush retail).
> 
> Anyone that follows your ridiculous organisation with its horribly misinformed mandate is evidently easily swayed.


----------



## Lil_nightmare

Gar1on said:


> I posted a response, it is awaiting moderation so isnt showingyet. Not great, just quickly thought I would whip something up!


I think i love you a little bit :blush:


----------



## alecwood

*Funny & Sad*

I'm reading this with great sadness that the new face of the ALF have won again. But, all you guys need to look outside your bubble and face some cold hard facts

1. Each representative organisation in the hobby rivals each other, there's no commonality, and no one would suggest the other takes it over for the sake of unity. For that reason we have no single representative body, we're divided and easily conquered. Unlike the farmers, who do, which is why they won and we will ultimately lose

2. This has not come out of the blue, look at the calendar. Almost every show scheduled in the UK this year has already suffered this same fate. We all knew this was going to happen, why is it a surprise to anyone, are you really so naive? 

3. We should not be having animal car boot sales. They look to any observer as being all about money, and no consideration for animal welfare. Remember, most hobbyists have one or two pets, not a spare room full of ten thousand pounds worth of breeding stock. I'd go to Donny out of interest, but always cringe a little at what I see there

4. The RSPCA, and thus all political parties, are set against exotic pet keeping and would seek to have it eliminated eventually

5. The stated aim of the APA is to spend 2012 consolidating on the work of 2011 in preventing ALL such shows in the UK. Their schedule for 2013 is to identify specialist shops run by prominent breeders and eliminate them while simultaneously going after Pets At Home who are a very new, but very large, player in the exotic pet world.

6. The APA are here, signed up to these forums and others, it's time more of you joined me in theirs, including those on Tor

I think we need to be practical, kiss Donny goodbye and include the APA in our "what if" contingencies for the future.

OK, so that's my tuppence worth, bye

Alec


----------



## Meko

I can't see her reading your reply though, as the article (and her comment) is almost 6 months old.


----------



## Big_Rich

Love it.....I just love it:2thumb::no1:


----------



## hogboy

Gar1on said:


> I posted a response, it is awaiting moderation so isnt showingyet. Not great, just quickly thought I would whip something up!


:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


----------



## Gar1on

Lil_nightmare said:


> I think i love you a little bit :blush:


:blush:

It might also be worth noting that I am currently awaiting a response from the Press Complaints Commission regarding an article that was inspired by the APA's false statistics and information. 

Their behaviour only allows us to discredit them consistently. As time goes by, any respect the minority have for them will soon wane. In the mean time, we as reptile keepers need to educate those who are not familiar with our hobby so they cannot be swayed by our dear friend Elaine's lies.


----------



## Hutchie91

Has anyone heard any news from the courtcase? Not been able to follow this post as much as id have liked too, when is there going to be a deffinative answer?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gar1on

Meko said:


> I can't see her reading your reply though, as the article (and her comment) is almost 6 months old.


Correct, she almost certainly won't. However if someone happens across the article they can at least now see both sides of the argument, as opposed to just one.


----------



## Meko

Hutchie91 said:


> Has anyone heard any news from the courtcase? Not been able to follow this post as much as id have liked too, when is there going to be a deffinative answer?
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


Think somebody said earlier that there should be news around 5pm.


----------



## Hutchie91

Thanks, really hope they might the right decision and dont allow themselves to be blinded by their bullcrap!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## westie1

well done for that! its a matter of putting forward a well rounded counter claim, avoiding charged emotional crap which they use (wildlife,cages,horrific,ect ect ect) and stating hard facts.

We all know the majority of us put a hell of alot of effort into our hobby and take pride from our animals health and well-being.

Wish i could "throw together" stuff like that lol


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

If there are any members that can spare 5 - 15 minutes a day that likes googling, clicking, cutting and pasting, collating info and generally following information trails. then please PM me for details.


----------



## madaboutreptiles

LFBP-NEIL said:


> If there are any members that can spare 5 - 15 minutes a day that likes googling, clicking, cutting and pasting, collating info and generally following information trails. then please PM me for details.


Pm inbound


----------



## Nodders

Brittanicus said:


> My point is, if there is no show then how can you turn up at it?
> I will be in Doncaster amongst many others as a group of us are meeting up and have booked a hotel for the night before, but obviously if there is no show I will not be able to attend and show my support for something that isn't there.
> Or does logic go too far above your head for you to be able to comprehend it?


Hey m8 , I'm quoting what others have said , if they want to go let them , what the hell has it got to do with you and your high and mighty attitude .

If you had took the time out to read what others have said you would'nt even have posted that or is it post count first and to hell with the rest ?


----------



## westie1

madaboutreptiles said:


> Pm inbound


and myself


----------



## skywalker550

*IHS breeders meeting.*

Hi,
Clearly this issue is not just going to affect reptile keepers, but keepers/breeders of exotics in general .As if the animal rights lot can win on this one then how long will it be before they start shutting down bird breeding shows, or even that english staple of crufts itself. we cannot allow a minority to dictate, to the majority. Why is the government or in this case the local council so weak against the animal rights movement? Is it because they don't want to be seen to be taking sides or because they are politically point scoring. Either way something must be done before all pet shows are threatened.
Many thanks


----------



## andy007

I would just like to pick up on a few things you have stated.



alecwood said:


> 2. This has not come out of the blue, look at the calendar. Almost every show scheduled in the UK this year has already suffered this same fate. We all knew this was going to happen, why is it a surprise to anyone, are you really so naive?


It is not a surprise. We knew this would happen so I would thank you for not questioning my naivety.



alecwood said:


> 3. We should not be having animal car boot sales.


That sounds like anti talk to me? Last time I went to show I feel certain there were no cars in the building?



alecwood said:


> 4. The RSPCA, and thus all political parties, are set against exotic pet keeping and would seek to have it eliminated eventually


Haven't noticed this in their manifesto's, so where is it that they state this please?



alecwood said:


> 6. The APA are here, signed up to these forums and others, it's time more of you joined me in theirs, including those on Tor


Sorry but slightly confused here?? What is Tor please? 

You seem to be well versed about things. Can I ask why you haven't joined here before now if you have these strong thoughts?


----------



## Cleggs

SnakeBreeder said:


> I noticed a lot of newish members posting on this thread.:blush:
> Maybe the PATA not only have eyes to read our posts but they post as well.
> Some of the comment by new members can be turned around to show what a bad lot we reptile keepers are :Na_Na_Na_Na:


wow do you not think some of the older poster's have made stupid and damming comments too !! you dont have to be a new poster to be a mole as they have been doing this for years.they probably have moles in all the big federations. i understand that any new posters are looked at in suspicion but branding all newbs as suspicious is just going to devide us more..everyone needs to watch what they say and do saying stupid things will give them ammunition which they will no doubt twist to their needs to ban our reptiles hobby.as a newb to posting my self i will not post again till this is over but would still urge all keepers to join or donate to ihs or fbh we will loose if we don't stand together.


----------



## Nodders

mispentyouth said:


> Even if the show gets cancelled i think we should all attend anyway . .





cjs said:


> i am travelling down from fife for the show on sunday no matter what form it is allowed. I am not attending the conference on sat 16th but will be at the dome, i would like to invite all members not attending the conference to join me in peacefull support of the IHS and the hobby as a whole, this should not be viewed as a protest againt the APA or any other morons making terrorist threats, just a peacefull show of support for our community.





Burmtastic said:


> I'm heading from Glenrothes on sat so will be there any way : victory:





Guy_Brooks said:


> Nothing states that we can not turn up in numbers though:2thumb:





wretchedprocess said:


> Wow, some introduction to the state of the reptile hobby in the UK! I joined the IHS last week before I knew about any of this (possibly before it happened), and I just donated to the FBH as well. I'm going to the conference and will be around for the show-or-not-show as well. But oh my, I didn't know how bad it was over here!
> 
> *WHO'S WITH ME?*





Burmtastic said:


> I hope all goes well but either way i will be going to show support on Sunday ... I just hope everyone else does





Lil_nightmare said:


> We will also be going regardless


Just a few of the people turning up , even though the show may be cancelled .

Originally written by Brittanicus "I will not be able to attend and show my support for something that isn't there.
Or does logic go too far above your head for you to be able to comprehend it?"

Seems logic is too far above a lot of peoples heads today .

I do apologise that I would like to support the IHS in any way I or others see fit .

Logic eh ?


----------



## Brittanicus

Nodders said:


> Hey m8 , I'm quoting what others have said , if they want to go let them , what the hell has it got to do with you and your high and mighty attitude .
> 
> If you had took the time out to read what others have said you would'nt even have posted that or is it post count first and to hell with the rest ?


The topic has exactly the same to do with me as it has to do with you.
Like you state, you are relying on quoting what other people have said. I am just glad that I have the capability to think for myself and not rely on quoting other people. 
Whether you like it or not, this is a forum where people are entitled to post their opinions whether you yourself agree with them or not, and I hardly think that an average of just under 3 posts a day makes me out to be someone who is reaching for the stars with their post count. :whistling2:
My posts are made up of what I actually personally feel about the matter, not to try and win a popularity contest, you can like or dislike them as much as you want, but I won't lose the slightest bit of sleep over it.


----------



## geckograham

It's getting late in the day, has there been any update?


----------



## Guy_Brooks

andy007 said:


> I would just like to pick up on a few things you have stated.
> 
> 
> 
> It is not a surprise. We knew this would happen so I would thank you for not questioning my naivety.
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds like anti talk to me? Last time I went to show I feel certain there were no cars in the building?
> 
> 
> 
> Haven't noticed this in their manifesto's, so where is it that they state this please?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry but slightly confused here?? What is Tor please?
> 
> You seem to be well versed about things. Can I ask why you haven't joined here before now if you have these strong thoughts?


I thought what he said was slightly unusual but didn't want to say anything incase I got slated for "confronting the noob" but 1 post and this is it, joined since april (Could be someone on the inside that's just reading everything) and is basically telling us to giveup and seems to know nothing about shows.


----------



## Burmtastic

geckograham said:


> It's getting late in the day, has there been any update?


Just got told thats the case just got started


----------



## Brittanicus

Nodders said:


> Just a few of the people turning up , even though the show may be cancelled .
> 
> Originally written by Brittanicus "I will not be able to attend and show my support for something that isn't there.
> Or does logic go too far above your head for you to be able to comprehend it?"
> 
> Seems logic is too far above a lot of peoples heads today .
> 
> I do apologise that I would like to support the IHS in any way I or others see fit .
> 
> Logic eh ?


Gosh, you've really got your panties in a bunch haven't you. 
I nearly fell of my chair with amazement at your fabulous skill of being able to quote people and your incredible abilty to copy and paste.


----------



## Lil_nightmare

Will you please stop bickering.

Its unnecessary, unneeded and unwanted. 

Take it to PM instead of having it for everyone and their anti to see


----------



## Brittanicus

Lil_nightmare said:


> Will you please stop bickering.
> 
> Its unnecessary, unneeded and unwanted.
> 
> Take it to PM instead of having it for everyone and their anti to see


I really can't be bothered with it now anyway. I just replied to the comments made in the first place against me, but now have realised that the op will just keep replying back to me, so I will not be responding anymore.


----------



## MCEE

alecwood said:


> I'm reading this with great sadness that the new face of the ALF have won again. But, all you guys need to look outside your bubble and face some cold hard facts
> 
> 1. Each representative organisation in the hobby rivals each other, there's no commonality, and no one would suggest the other takes it over for the sake of unity. For that reason we have no single representative body, we're divided and easily conquered. Unlike the farmers, who do, which is why they won and we will ultimately lose
> 
> 2. This has not come out of the blue, look at the calendar. Almost every show scheduled in the UK this year has already suffered this same fate. We all knew this was going to happen, why is it a surprise to anyone, are you really so naive?
> 
> 3. We should not be having animal car boot sales. They look to any observer as being all about money, and no consideration for animal welfare. Remember, most hobbyists have one or two pets, not a spare room full of ten thousand pounds worth of breeding stock. I'd go to Donny out of interest, but always cringe a little at what I see there
> 
> 4. The RSPCA, and thus all political parties, are set against exotic pet keeping and would seek to have it eliminated eventually
> 
> 5. The stated aim of the APA is to spend 2012 consolidating on the work of 2011 in preventing ALL such shows in the UK. Their schedule for 2013 is to identify specialist shops run by prominent breeders and eliminate them while simultaneously going after Pets At Home who are a very new, but very large, player in the exotic pet world.
> 
> 6. The APA are here, signed up to these forums and others, it's time more of you joined me in theirs, including those on Tor
> 
> I think we need to be practical, kiss Donny goodbye and include the APA in our "what if" contingencies for the future.
> 
> OK, so that's my tuppence worth, bye
> 
> Alec


:hmm:

I think this person should be ignored as either a defeatest or an <cough> APA :whistling2:blower.</cough>


----------



## badger13

If the news is good that would be great and we will have a great meeting. If the news is bad then what can we do in future to see this does not keep happening . We must become proactive and not reactive to the apa. May be hold meetings at places like Newark or Stoneleigh Park. As can be seen from previous posts there are lots of loyal reptile keepers who do care about their hobby and are willing to stand up and be counted. Please dont let the apa divide us we must stand firm to stand any chance


----------



## westie1

I think some changes should be made for the future even if it still goes ahead as they will not give up (they are as convinced we are wrong as we are them).

Even if not enforced it should be implimented by the sellers regardless.

3 sides covered on boxes ect ect
we should have a good collective think as to how we can improve the shows so we can show we are trying to improve the situation.

A car boot sale is (in my opinion) a poor comparison but is an image the apa is trying to peddle and we need to show its not the case.


----------



## Brittanicus

I wish the judge would hurry up and make his ruling, I am going to have no nails left.


----------



## Guy_Brooks

Brittanicus said:


> I wish the judge would hurry up and make his ruling, I am going to have no nails left.


Like wise!


----------



## brannyboy84

MCEE said:


> :hmm:
> 
> I think this person should be ignored as either a defeatest or an <cough> APA :whistling2:blower.</cough>


 hope you dont own a dog or cat caus eto the uk there exotic pets <snip>


----------



## andy007

brannyboy84 said:


> hope you dont own a dog or cat caus eto the uk there exotic pets


You're pleasant:bash:


----------



## Sparko

brannyboy84, this is a family-friendly forum - please refrain from using bad language.


----------



## DaveM

could we get a mod to keep a close eye on this thread, just incase?


----------



## Nikkeh

DaveM said:


> could we get a mod to keep a close eye on this thread, just incase?


I think the majority of us are keeping a very very close eye on the thread :2thumb:


----------



## westie1

Nikkeh said:


> I think the majority of us are keeping a very very close eye on the thread :2thumb:


lol never a truer word said!


----------



## Nikkeh

Haha, i'm refreshing the page every 2 minutes, there's going to be tens of thousands of views with everyone else doing the same


----------



## premier boids

I wonder if it would've been worth contacting Doncaster racecourse to see if they could accomodate the show, or even just a gathering as its so late in the day.... they would be used to all the animal rights brigade. maybe a better venue for the future anyway.


----------



## Blake1990

Come on Chris, give us all the news we've been waiting to here! :no1:


----------



## westie1

premier boids said:


> I wonder if it would've been worth contacting Doncaster racecourse to see if they could accomodate the show, or even just a gathering as its so late in the day.... they would be used to all the animal rights brigade. maybe a better venue for the future anyway.


Yeah aslong as whatever happens its organised, we dont want to become a problem to local businesses.

I thought Donny dome was privately owned before all this.


----------



## mstypical

westie1 said:


> Yeah aslong as whatever happens its organised, we dont want to become a problem to local businesses.
> 
> I thought Donny dome was privately owned before all this.


You can own your own home, but with enough complaints you can still be kicked out :whistling2:


----------



## chris25

andy007 said:


> That sounds like anti talk to me? Last time I went to show I feel certain there were no cars in the building?


 
i doubt very much he's an anti..after all anti's are lying ,skulk around in dark corners pedaling their lies and out of date views..i doubt very much one would have the nerve to actually come on here and discuss their viewpoint...strange considering its so important to them!!

just a bunch of misguided idiots who backslap each other without the balls to come and try to justify their actions.
mind you, threatening violence and harm would make it hard for them to step up to the plate...it would seem underhand tatics are their best way to dictate what others can do


----------



## Janine00

premier boids said:


> I wonder if it would've been worth contacting Doncaster racecourse to see if they could accomodate the show, or even just a gathering as its so late in the day.... they would be used to all the animal rights brigade. maybe a better venue for the future anyway.


Been done already


----------



## Meko

brannyboy84 said:


> hope you dont own a dog or cat caus eto the uk there exotic pets <snip>


No they're not, they're domestic pets


----------



## JumperBoy

Meko said:


> No they're not, they're domestic pets


:lol2:


----------



## Blake1990

I dont want to drive home from work in case i miss an update!


no weekend for me! :devil:


----------



## Nikkeh

Blake1990 said:


> I dont want to drive home from work in case i miss an update!
> 
> 
> no weekend for me! :devil:


I'll PM you the link to the post if it comes up if you like? Being as you so kindly offered me cigarettes :2thumb:


----------



## Vectis

brannyboy84 said:


> hope you dont own a dog or cat caus eto the uk there exotic pets <snip>


As the above poster says, they're domestic pets. It is animals such as degus, hedgehogs and foxes are considered exotic pet mammals. Many vets class hamsters, mice, gerbils and rats as exotics too. 

The APA Director, however, gives this definition on the website linked earlier in the thread:


> "Exotic pets are wild animals imprisoned in small cages for novelty entertainment"


:gasp:


----------



## Blake1990

Nikkeh said:


> I'll PM you the link to the post if it comes up if you like? Being as you so kindly offered me cigarettes :2thumb:


PM sent : victory:


----------



## Mynki

I've just called the Doncaster Dome to see if it is cancelled. My logic being that they'll know seeing as they are hosting the event.

The 'meeting' as the employee described it is still underway and an announcement will be placed on their website :-

Contacting Us

She indicated that it could be fairly late tonight. However I suspect CN will update as soon as is humanly possible. So at the time of writing there is no confirmed answer still. :/


----------



## Nikkeh

I'll sit in front of this screen aslong as it takes.


----------



## mstypical

While we're waiting.... like the facebook page in my sig, a reptile community to rival the anti groups, Society for the Protection of Exotic Pets


----------



## Guy_Brooks

I've been sat in front of these screen on this post since yesterday..... Just need some popcorn now


----------



## Nikkeh

mstypical said:


> While we're waiting.... like the facebook page in my sig, a reptile community to rival the anti groups, Society for the Protection of Exotic Pets


I was like "oooo something else i can like..Nope wait, already liked it" Haha, i take my hat off to you and Lil nightmare, you two have worked your little pods off last night and today :flrt:


----------



## andy007

Guy_Brooks said:


> I've been sat in front of these screen on this post since yesterday..... Just need some popcorn now


We ate a huge bag of popcorn already lol.........and Kitkat chunkys and McCoys crisps lol


----------



## mstypical

Nikkeh said:


> I was like "oooo something else i can like..Nope wait, already liked it" Haha, i take my hat off to you and Lil nightmare, you two have worked your little pods off last night and today :flrt:


I can't take that much credit, there are a couple of others along with Lil who have worked very hard, I have spent much of today dealing with a poorly timed outbreak of mites :devil: :lol2: gotta love reptiles ay?!


----------



## Guy_Brooks

Nikkeh said:


> I was like "oooo something else i can like..Nope wait, already liked it" Haha, i take my hat off to you and Lil nightmare, you two have worked your little pods off last night and today :flrt:


 A few more people have played a roll as well



andy007 said:


> We ate a huge bag of popcorn already lol.........and Kitkat chunkys and McCoys crisps lol


Ooooo I've just had a triple stack burger


----------



## Khaos

I would like to hereby invite you all to my new project: APAPA.

The Animal Protection Agency Protection Agency (APAPA) is the UK organisation committed to ceasing the laudibly ill-informed attempts of the Animal Protection Agency to cease the trade in wildlife for pets with truly cartoon-villain style evil schemes. Perhaps unbelievably, it is still legal in Britain to attempt to stop via death threats perfectly legal events at which people sell mostly captive, hobby-bred healthy animals, with proper permits and licences...


----------



## mstypical

Guy_Brooks said:


> A few more people have played a roll as well


And if you inbox me your email address that is associate with your facebook i'll make you admin


----------



## Guy_Brooks

mstypical said:


> And if you inbox me your email address that is associate with your facebook i'll make you admin


Oooooo I don't think I have ever ever ever pressed personal messages as quick until now :lol2:


----------



## Khonsu

I'm sat her having kittens in anticipation of CN posting, do you tkink APA will want to drown the kittens I'm having


----------



## Nikkeh

Guy_Brooks said:


> A few more people have played a roll as well
> 
> 
> 
> Ooooo I've just had a triple stack burger


Ohh i'm not discrediting anyone, i know there are ALOT of people who have worked very hard. I just thought i'd say a quick thanks after noticing mstypical had posted that comment :2thumb:


----------



## Sparko

Aimo said:


> I'm sat her having kittens in anticipation of CN posting, do you tkink APA will want to drown the kittens I'm having


Definitely - they have scientific evidence that 99% of captive-bred kittens sprout antlers and then spontaneously combust within their first year.


----------



## stven1988

this waits killing me now. ive checked everywhere and nothing. wonder if the APA will post on their site if we win


----------



## mstypical

Nikkeh said:


> Ohh i'm not discrediting anyone, i know there are ALOT of people who have worked very hard. I just thought i'd say a quick thanks after noticing mstypical had posted that comment :2thumb:


I think he's happy now he's an admin :lol2:


----------



## westie1

sparkofgod said:


> Definitely - they have scientific evidence that 99% of captive-bred kittens sprout antlers and then spontaneously combust within their first year.


lmao
quality


----------



## mstypical

sparkofgod said:


> Definitely - they have scientific evidence that 99% of captive-bred kittens sprout antlers and then spontaneously combust within their first year.


Don't be so naive, they aren't truly captive bred that's why! The sellers just lie after snatching them violently from their native homes!


----------



## Chromisca

stven1988 said:


> this waits killing me now. ive checked everywhere and nothing. wonder if the APA will post on their site if we win


Seeing as they delete every constructive feedback given by one of us on their facebook page, I doubt that. 

But man, I would love to see the look on Ms.Toerag's face when she finds out.

I'm being very optimistic because I can


----------



## Nikkeh

mstypical said:


> I think he's happy now he's an admin :lol2:


Good good, i'm no good with creating pages and stuff so i just bugged the hell out of all my friends to re-post the status Lil Nightmare wrote, it may not do anything but no harm in trying :2thumb:


----------



## Guy_Brooks

mstypical said:


> I think he's happy now he's an admin :lol2:


Don't let me remind you of P.I.P :whistling2::lol2:


----------



## JumperBoy

sparkofgod said:


> Definitely - they have scientific evidence that 99% of captive-bred kittens sprout antlers and then spontaneously combust within their first year.


This comment made the waiting that bit happyer and for that, i thank you. :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


----------



## mstypical

Guy_Brooks said:


> Don't let me remind you of P.I.P :whistling2::lol2:


What's PIP?


----------



## Guy_Brooks

mstypical said:


> What's PIP?


Partners In Petitions :whistling2: :lol2:


----------



## mstypical

Guy_Brooks said:


> Partners In Petitions :whistling2: :lol2:


Oh yeah, god too many abbreviations this past 24 hours lol


----------



## Silkmoth

alecwood said:


> I'm reading this with great sadness that the new face of the ALF have won again. But, all you guys need to look outside your bubble and face some cold hard facts
> 
> 1. Each representative organisation in the hobby rivals each other, there's no commonality, and no one would suggest the other takes it over for the sake of unity. For that reason we have no single representative body, we're divided and easily conquered. Unlike the farmers, who do, which is why they won and we will ultimately lose
> 
> 2. This has not come out of the blue, look at the calendar. Almost every show scheduled in the UK this year has already suffered this same fate. We all knew this was going to happen, why is it a surprise to anyone, are you really so naive?
> 
> 3. We should not be having animal car boot sales. They look to any observer as being all about money, and no consideration for animal welfare. Remember, most hobbyists have one or two pets, not a spare room full of ten thousand pounds worth of breeding stock. I'd go to Donny out of interest, but always cringe a little at what I see there
> 
> 4. The RSPCA, and thus all political parties, are set against exotic pet keeping and would seek to have it eliminated eventually
> 
> 5. The stated aim of the APA is to spend 2012 consolidating on the work of 2011 in preventing ALL such shows in the UK. Their schedule for 2013 is to identify specialist shops run by prominent breeders and eliminate them while simultaneously going after Pets At Home who are a very new, but very large, player in the exotic pet world.
> 
> 6. The APA are here, signed up to these forums and others, it's time more of you joined me in theirs, including those on Tor
> 
> I think we need to be practical, kiss Donny goodbye and include the APA in our "what if" contingencies for the future.
> 
> OK, so that's my tuppence worth, bye
> 
> Alec


I'm sorry I cant possibly read this whole thread so have read pages at random. 

This is a real mess and I had no plans to go to Donny but I have to agree with Alec. I didnt even know what the APA was until I looked at the threads about a show being cancelled. I went on the APA website and can see they are a bunch of lunatics (my personal opinion) but I did watch a movie of secret filming at a bird show/exhibition and what they caught on film was very good for their cause. I can see how other borderline lunatics (again, my personal opinion), would be attracted to sign up to APA just on the strength of that film alone. 

Two points I fail to see any recognition of: 1) breeders in the UK are selling CAPTIVE BRED snakes, 2) snakes kept in captivity have their life span over DOUBLED compared to the same wild snakes. APA is all about the prevention of wild animals and reptiles being removed from their natural habitat and kept in captivity and against cruelty to said animals and reptiles. But then the APA lose the plot and advertise all the shows they've got cancelled - shows that didnt fit into their remit!!! 

In my opinion I think its best for breeders to use the internet to advertise their captive bred surplus and meet the old fashioned way, ie, at the Little Chef halfway between the two or use carriers. The reptile breeders and keepers need to be united now to fight the bigger fight, against the government to ensure they don't make our pets illegal. By doing that we need to show that we aren't causing a nuisance or infringing on any laws and that there would be far more nuisance and law infringement by banning the keeping of reptiles in this country. By being members of IHS or FBH we can be counted as responsible reptile keepers and taken seriously. 

I hope what I've said here makes sense and isn't naive but if I have offended anyone reading this then maybe thats because you are one of the lunatics (my opinion) and you should stop reading posts on the reptile forum when you clearly can't be trusted to behave rationally towards reptile keepers xx


----------



## Guy_Brooks

mstypical said:


> Oh yeah, god too many abbreviations this past 24 hours lol


Haha that is why I made that one up, makes your brain work strongerrrr!!!


----------



## ghostcornsnake

I don't no if anyone has already said this and this honestly is not sarcasm 
But what about informing the police on these potential terrorists


----------



## andy007

Silkmoth said:


> I'm sorry I cant possibly read this whole thread so have read pages at random.
> 
> This is a real mess and I had no plans to go to Donny but I have to agree with Alec.


43 pages and you managed to come across that particular post to agree with??

Read the whole thing and learn about what this is all about. You can't possibly agree with that post if you didn't even know who the APA were.


----------



## Lil_nightmare

Come on!!!! this is more tense then when I was finding out my childs gender!!


----------



## batcode

flip dont think ive ever sat on pc in one go for so long and refreshed as much ever lol

ive chewed all my finger nails arghh now climbing walls in anticipation !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Guy_Brooks

Lil_nightmare said:


> Come on!!!! this is more tense then when I was finding out my childs gender!!


:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2: You've just rocked my socks off! :no1::2thumb:


----------



## Chris Newman

Sorry chaps, as yet still no news. We have been in Court since 4:30, there have been some last minute shenanigans by, well you know who! I will update you as soon as possible, by the way anyone got any spare fingernails, I’ve run out……


----------



## PhillyDee

Chris Newman said:


> Sorry chaps, as yet still no news. We have been in Court since 4:30, there have been some last minute shenanigans by, well you know who! I will update you as soon as possible, by the way anyone got any spare fingernails, I’ve run out……


I will lend you a spare fingernail, if you spare me a new F5 button . . . .


----------



## DaveM

Chris Newman said:


> Sorry chaps, as yet still no news. We have been in Court since 4:30, there have been some last minute shenanigans by, well you know who! I will update you as soon as possible, by the way anyone got any spare fingernails, I’ve run out……


you can have some of mine dude


----------



## andy007

Chris Newman said:


> Sorry chaps, as yet still no news. We have been in Court since 4:30, there have been some last minute shenanigans by, well you know who! I will update you as soon as possible, by the way anyone got any spare fingernails, I’ve run out……


Thank you for taking the time to update Chris:2thumb: Best of luck: victory:


----------



## Blake1990

Chris Newman said:


> Sorry chaps, as yet still no news. We have been in Court since 4:30, there have been some last minute shenanigans by, well you know who! I will update you as soon as possible, by the way anyone got any spare fingernails, I’ve run out……


We love you Chris!!!!


----------



## Guy_Brooks

I'm going on fifa 12..... passes time


----------



## batcode

many thanks for update chris wish u all best


----------



## hogboy

Chris Newman said:


> Sorry chaps, as yet still no news. We have been in Court since 4:30, there have been some last minute shenanigans by, well you know who! I will update you as soon as possible, by the way anyone got any spare fingernails, I’ve run out……


Good luck Chris, all of RFUK and CB are rooting for you :2thumb:


----------



## Tombo46

Chris Newman said:


> Sorry chaps, as yet still no news. We have been in Court since 4:30, there have been some last minute shenanigans by, well you know who! I will update you as soon as possible, by the way anyone got any spare fingernails, I’ve run out……


Thanks for the update Chris. Whatever the results, we're all behind you.


----------



## duvessa

Chris Newman said:


> Sorry chaps, as yet still no news. We have been in Court since 4:30, there have been some last minute shenanigans by, well you know who! I will update you as soon as possible, by the way anyone got any spare fingernails, I’ve run out……


Thanks for the update Chris


----------



## Nikkeh

Chris Newman said:


> Sorry chaps, as yet still no news. We have been in Court since 4:30, there have been some last minute shenanigans by, well you know who! I will update you as soon as possible, by the way anyone got any spare fingernails, I’ve run out……


Thanks for the update! Unfortunaltly i have none left either :lol2:


----------



## Janine00




----------



## Guy_Brooks

Chris Newman said:


> Sorry chaps, as yet still no news. We have been in Court since 4:30, there have been some last minute shenanigans by, well you know who! I will update you as soon as possible, by the way anyone got any spare fingernails, I’ve run out……


Thanks and good luck and I've ran out of finger nails  I can give you the clippings though ?


----------



## Janine00

WAAAAAAYYYYTOGOOOOOOOOOOOO.....


----------



## Kev132

Chris Newman said:


> Sorry chaps, as yet still no news. We have been in Court since 4:30, there have been some last minute shenanigans by, well you know who! I will update you as soon as possible, by the way anyone got any spare fingernails, I’ve run out……


thanks for finding the time to update us chris, fingers and toes are well and truelly crossed


----------



## Lil_nightmare

Come on Chris go in knowing we are all behind you and will do whatever it takes to keep these people out :no1:


----------



## Tombo46

We need Judge Judy. She would sort the lying (and that's a proven fact!) gits out!!


----------



## Chris Newman

WE WON

The show is on…….


----------



## PURPLEGOTH666

as already said Chris we are all behind you what ever the out come thanks for the update,much respect :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


----------



## Nikkeh

Chris Newman said:


> WE WON
> 
> The show is on…….


Awh thats fantastic!!!!! :2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


----------



## andy007

Chris Newman said:


> WE WON
> 
> The show is on…….


GET IN:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


----------



## laurad

Woo hoo well done Chris :notworthy:


----------



## paulie78

Keep up the good work Chris thanks for taking the time to update us a lotta people on the edge of our seats here we are all rooting for you give em all the hell you can spare!!


----------



## Tombo46

Chris you're a legend!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## DaveM

chris newman said:


> we won
> 
> the show is on…….


oh hell yes! :d


----------



## Lil_nightmare

Woohoooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!! Get on chris, you legend!


----------



## em_40

Fantastic news! Well done Chris :no1:


----------



## Guy_Brooks

chris newman said:


> we won
> 
> the show is on…….


yessss this calls for a celebration


----------



## PURPLEGOTH666

Chris Newman said:


> WE WON
> 
> The show is on…….


Hell yeah,well done to all,lets keep this rolling now keep up the support,massive attendance on Sunday.
:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


----------



## EquineArcher

Well done Chris, great work :no1:


----------



## Nikkeh

Guy_Brooks said:


> yessss this calls for a celebration


I've just cracked open my bottle of Jack Daniels that i've been saving :2thumb:


----------



## BeckyL

Chris Newman said:


> WE WON
> 
> The show is on…….


I punched the air when I read this! I am too far away to attend Donny but I am thrilled nonetheless, great news.


----------



## hogboy

Well done to Chris and the team :notworthy::2thumb:: victory::no1:

Thank you :2thumb:


----------



## madaboutreptiles

chris newman said:


> we won
> 
> the show is on…….



you are the man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Brittanicus

Thanks Chris, you are a LEGEND mate!!!!!!!!


----------



## stokesy

WELL DONE CHRIS :2thumb: - Don't forget peeps we still need to support our hobby


----------



## bradhadair

Chris Newman said:


> WE WON
> 
> The show is on…….



GET IN!!!!!!!!!!!:Na_Na_Na_Na::Na_Na_Na_Na::Na_Na_Na_Na::Na_Na_Na_Na::Na_Na_Na_Na::Na_Na_Na_Na:

Shall see you all on Sunday : victory:... Thought I was gonna go into premature labour hanging on for that :2thumb: pmsl


----------



## PhillyDee




----------



## paulie78

Woohoo time for a celebratory beer great work chris if i ever meet you i owe you a beer!! and a debt of eternal gratitude for all your hard work


----------



## Sirvincent

Chris Newman said:


> WE WON
> 
> The show is on…….


Fantastic news :no1:


----------



## andy007




----------



## Blake1990

Nearly passed out.

You should be knighted Chris!!


----------



## Big_Rich

Big thanks to Chris and the team!:notworthy::2thumb:


----------



## paulie78

Think i better up my donation to the fbh now im feeling rather gratefull lol


----------



## Chromisca

BIG Congratulations!

Thanks for fighting the fight for all of us 

You, sir, are a true hero and a legend


----------



## PrincessStegosaurus

YES!!!!! One up for the herpetologists! Thank you, Chris and well done! (I just mistyped your name as Christ, but that'd still fit!):2thumb:


----------



## DaveM

I'm donating as soon as I have the money spare


----------



## SnakeBreeder

Chris Newman said:


> WE WON
> 
> The show is on…….


 :2thumb:Excellent news.


----------



## xDEADFAMOUSx

Abosoulutely fantastic!!! Weldone!!!


----------



## Guy_Brooks

We Are The Champions-Queen - YouTube

This song is called for :no1::no1::no1::no1::no1::no1::no1::no1:


----------



## miss_ferret

fantastic news! you realise your going to have to come now chris :whistling2:

wear and name badge and we'l all make sure to buy you beer!


----------



## scubadude68

*great news*

Great news Chris Newman :no1: APA:Na_Na_Na_Na: but lets not forget how close it came, keep donating, keep fighting :whip:


----------



## Rybee

Can't be bothered to read thread, what was the legal matter over, a judicial review?


----------



## Sid crock

Its the 1st battle the war is still to be won! BUT well done lads.


----------



## Ian.g

Chris Newman said:


> WE WON
> 
> The show is on…….


:notworthy::notworthy: awesome stuff!!!!


----------



## mariex4

well done to chris and who ever els involved , so people get ya cash out now whooooooooooooop


----------



## suffolk etb

Thank you guys!

you fought the fight the right way,with honesty and fact.

Amazing.


----------



## Janine00

paulie78 said:


> Think i better up my donation to the fbh now im feeling rather gratefull lol


I really do hope a lot more people feel like this..... It is VERY important now that we consolidate this work...... we may have won this battle, but something tells me the war is far from over.....

BUT..... Wahhhhhhhhaaaaaaaay!!!!! : victory:


----------



## JumperBoy

*streaks down the street*

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


----------



## corny girl

WELL DONE CHRIS & TEAM :no1::no1::no1:. Hope this makes the APA think twice now about messing with us :2thumb:.


----------



## xDEADFAMOUSx

So full reptile sales? Dry and livestock??


----------



## Sparko

Thank you to Chris and everyone else involved. I am humbled by your passion and dedication towards our hobby.

Bring on Sunday :2thumb:


----------



## emmilllyyy

WAAAHEEEEEEY! Great job Chris and everyone involved, myself and all of us lot here cant thank you enough!


----------



## DaveM

I got the weirdest look ever when I let out a rather loud "yes!"


----------



## Mynki

Well done Chris. Sincerest thanks.

Now does anyone know any t-shirt screen printers? I want a 'Elaine Tolland, suck my python'! printed on a t-shirt to wear at Donny. :whistling2:


----------



## Jas

Well done to all involved!
Hopefully more of us will show our appreciation on the donation page too.


----------



## Sharpman

This is amazing news , I've been wondering all day how this will go and been keeping a very close eye on the thread


----------



## JamesJ

Hell yeah :2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:

Roll on an awesome weekend with the conference and meeting :notworthy:

Please guys remember this doesnt mean the support and donations can stop, the APA are most likely only going to get worse so keep the support going :2thumb:


----------



## Lil_nightmare

BeckyL said:


> I punched the air when I read this! I am too far away to attend Donny but I am thrilled nonetheless, great news.


i also did this :blush:


----------



## Kelfezond

Great news!!! 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2


----------



## paulie78

_Im trying to contain my excitement does anyone know if this actually means the sale of reptiles will be permitted as that was my understanding that the show was going ahead regardless but they were fighting for the right to allow sales ?_


----------



## Kev132

get in  love it ! cant wait to see the official statement to see how things went down....


----------



## Blake1990

Let me know if you ever need a kidney Chris!!!


----------



## Vectis

Great news. Congratulations to Chris and all involved. I look forward to hearing more details about the judgement when everyone has recovered. Have a fab show everyone!


----------



## wretchedprocess

Just wanted to join everyone else in saying

YES!!!!!

Thank you so much! You guys are wonderful!


----------



## badger13

GREAT NEWS LETS TURN UP IN NUMBERS. IF YOU CAN ATTEND PLEASE DO
Many thanks to those that attended Court to see that Justice prevailed
:Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## duvessa

Great news Chris are you able to give any details of the judgement. Was it purely about the dome in breech of there contract or was there a ruling on the legality of the sale of live animals.


----------



## bradhadair

Guy_Brooks said:


> We Are The Champions-Queen - YouTube
> 
> This song is called for :no1::no1::no1::no1::no1::no1::no1::no1:



As is this one:

Twisted Sister - We're Not Gonna Take It - YouTube :no1::no1::no1::lol2:


----------



## MCEE

The fact that the APA has failed on this occasion needs to be tweeted and retweeted and their facebook page flooded with these facts. However, keep the comments professional, the purpose is to let the world know that we will not be bullied and that keeping/breeding herps is not the evil pursuit that the APA make it out to be.


----------



## Bex_2011

*thank you*

Just want to say thank you mr newman:no1:


----------



## truncheon1973

wonder how peeved the apa will be lol


----------



## dracowoman2

WAY TO GO CHRIS!!!! Now where do we all sign up to worship, and more importantly how do we ALL now get involved to keep fighting HARD to stop this happening again, before it all gets forgotten in a few weeks, or the next nasty attack comes from somewhere else, like the EU for example. I'm sure there is more we can ALL do, other than just donating money and letting the dedicated few fight for us, this is a team hobby, we have to stand up and be counted!!


----------



## Iulia

Yay!!

I've been trying to get off work that day and just no can do, but I hope EVERYONE who can make it does so and makes the show a raving success.

I've made a donation, and its certainly been a wake-up call to ME, as a relatively new snake keeper, that I need to take the issues a bit more seriously.

Its an absolute outrage that they tried to stop animals being sold at a meeting where animals have been sold for years, at such short notice, and shocking they had to go to court to force it to go ahead.

Thanks guys, and I for one have got my head out of the sand and will be doing what I can for the cause in the future.


----------



## sheepy42

Great news. I wasn't going to go to Donny but I will be going now to show support. 
Remember to donate anyone who hasn't already. Even £1 counts, it all adds up. 
Well in Everyone involved in getting the show on. :no1:


----------



## DaveM

truncheon1973 said:


> wonder how peeved the apa will be lol


I wonder how they will try to spin it?


----------



## Montage_Morphs

Well done to the FBH for winning the first battle! But lets not forget this or become complacent folks. And for GODS sake lets not give the antis any more amo! 

I'm also very surprised and proud of RFUK as a community for sticking together, despite not everyone getting on. It goes to show how strong we can be with the same agenda. We are a passionate community, and when it comes time for us to fight for what we love, I'm sure the majority will do whatever they can to support the cause.

I'm proud to be an exotic pet keeper, and I'm proud to support the continuing development of the hobby, for private keepers like myself and for those who run a legitimate business based on the exotics industry. This win would not have been possible without the support of everyone involved  But most importantly the people who fought for us in court today. Thank you


----------



## helsbels

Brilliant, that's such good news. Well done all!!!!!!!!!:no1::no1::no1::no1::no1::no1:


----------



## Guy_Brooks

The only thing that can make today better now is if england win!!

I can't thank you enough chris today might be a winning day for the whole of the uk!


----------



## mispentyouth

exellent news see you all there . please take your own food and drinks etc as i would hate to give money to a venue that doesnt want us there


----------



## chris25

well done to everyone involved in the last couple of days...

not wanting to dampen spirits but what exactly is the outcome

do we have permission to buy and sell as per normal?
what is the venues stance on future shows?
is this a win based on a purely contractual basis?


----------



## eightball

Well done to Chris : victory:

It wouldn't surprise me if the DCLT would try and make action against the meeting again, its ridiculous if you ask me, I wasn't attending this event although i will almost definitely be attending the next, should they dare try cancel :lol2:


----------



## BenjaminBoaz

Chris Newman said:


> WE WON
> 
> The show is on…….


A massive thank you Chris and others for keeping the fight going, working hard to hold these events and standing strong. :no1:


----------



## TradeExotics

That's great Chris, well done! Can't wait til Sunday now...


----------



## Jaydan

:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb: well done !!!!!!!!!!!!! as been said tho, its only one battle thats won, in a good slant on it tho its made people aware - personally I had heard of the APA but not the extent of what they actually do - alot more people are aware they DO need to do their bit to support the hobby - celebratery vodka I THINK SO - got the feeling there will be a few rough RFUKers tomorrw


----------



## Janine00

dracowoman2 said:


> WAY TO GO CHRIS!!!! Now where do we all sign up to worship, and more importantly how do we ALL now get involved to keep fighting HARD to stop this happening again, before it all gets forgotten in a few weeks, or the next nasty attack comes from somewhere else, like the EU for example. I'm sure there is more we can ALL do, other than just donating money and letting the dedicated few fight for us, this is a team hobby, we have to stand up and be counted!!


 
Donate - Donate - Join a longstanding legitimate herp club or association - Donate... and did I mention.... DONATE.... 

This last three days has cost and arm and a leg!!!! PLEASE remember this!!!


----------



## eightball

chris25 said:


> well done to everyone involved in the last couple of days...
> 
> not wanting to dampen spirits but what exactly is the outcome
> 
> do we have permission to buy and sell as per normal?
> what is the venues stance on future shows?
> is this a win based on a purely contractual basis?


The only problem from what i could see for them was only the selling/exchanging of animals so as the case has been won and the event is on i would imagine the permission of buying and selling is as normal,

Future shows I would imagine (depending on the contracts status) there would be no issue in the event happening as usual although as previously said id imagine the DCLT would try and stop the selling/exchanging of animals, 

I would have thought the win was down to the contract


----------



## Guy_Brooks

Yet again thanks Chris. Thanks to you I get to pick this gorgeous boy up on Sunday.










You've made me the happiest man alive :blush:


----------



## lewiso

i hope elaine toland is feeling pysically sick


----------



## dom1305

*Get the beers on*

GET THE BEERS OUT FOR A HAPPY WEEKEND.. WELL DONE THANKS :2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


----------



## gld

Brilliant :2thumb: Well done :no1:


----------



## Janine00

chris25 said:


> well done to everyone involved in the last couple of days...
> 
> *not wanting to dampen spirits but what exactly is the outcome*
> 
> *do we have permission to buy and sell as per normal?*
> *what is the venues stance on future shows?*
> *is this a win based on a purely contractual basi*s?


This is just to say that we can go ahead and have our Breeders Meeting in the same way as we have for the last 4 years at the Dome. No more, no less at this point!

Please keep the momentum and good community feeling going peeps... despite our smaller personality differences ~ *It really does pay to pull together!!*


----------



## Hutchie91

Fantastic result guys! Massive well done, lets make sunday huge and show them we cannot be beaten! IHS FTW

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## scubadude68

This battles won, the war will go on, we really need to keep the momentum going now :2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


----------



## LiamRatSnake

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/reptile-shows-breeder-meetings/859330-ihs-show.html
For anyone just refreshing this page.


----------



## truncheon1973

Guy_Brooks said:


> The only thing that can make today better now is if england win!!
> 
> I can't thank you enough chris today might be a winning day for the whole of the uk!


i would swap an england win for toland getting bitten by a rabid dog


----------



## Lil_nightmare

i would also like to know what these last minute shenanigans where?


----------



## Corn24_7

Fantastic news a big thanks to Chris and Co for all there work :2thumb: :notworthy:


----------



## Nikkeh

Lil_nightmare said:


> i would also like to know what these last minute shenanigans where?


I think Chris will be having a beer...or 10 before he fully updates us on everything thats one on :lol2:


----------



## Pauline

Well done Chris, you've just made my day.


----------



## chris25

truncheon1973 said:


> i would swap an england win for toland getting bitten by a rabid dog


oh come on...were all animal lovers...how unfair on the rabid dog! :2thumb:


----------



## cartercorn

True dedication shows this is not just a hobby, well done guys, roll on sunday


----------



## trogdorable

during work thinking about this today i was like :war:


and after reading this i just feel eace:


chris, you are a godsend to this hobby.


----------



## Phil75

Chris Newman said:


> WE WON
> 
> The show is on…….


Great job Chris.
With your permission my pledge is to make a donation for every reptile I sell. I would like to link the FBH to my Facebook page and website. I will ask every person who re homes a gecko from me to make a donation aswell.

Good luck and thank you

Phil


----------



## lovespids

Chris Newman said:


> WE WON
> 
> The show is on…….


 well done:notworthy:


----------



## Pirate7

Well Done Chris, thanks for your hard work!!!. STFU APA failures.

- See ya'll on Sunday!!


----------



## Cleggs

:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy: me my wife and kids are so happy about this ..this show will be my kids 1st ever and i think they will love it.
thank you to those who was doing the fighting.
i do think this should be a warning to us all and we need to still support our hobby by joining or donating to those who just saved us from loosing yet another show.:no1:


----------



## sazzle

Chris Newman said:


> WE WON
> 
> The show is on…….


I think we each owe you a curlywurly :lol2:

Great work  x


----------



## Poxicator

Congrats, well done


----------



## Fionab

Lil_nightmare said:


> i also did this :blush:


yep i punched the air and let out a yell as well even tho im not going this time rond, but a massive well done , fingers crossed the momentum gained here will continue and people will see that it is indeed a real threat, no doubt they will try something else in september but thats another story lets enjoy this one!


----------



## RachieValo

Well done Chris and every other, great outcome!  :no1:


----------



## Pauleve

Keep Informing the A.P.A on their facebook site Animal Protection Agency | Facebook That the show goes ahead guys as they repeatedly are removing post's stating the fact .

LATEST High Court injunction granted in the High Court of Justice Chancery Division, London for the event to go ahead as per the usual event's in previous years.

Lets be a nuisance to them and spread the word :2thumb:


----------



## batcode

great lets hope other shows ie creaks etc carry on the momentum and that people see that the risk is indeed here and we carry this on working togther instead of past its great victory ,even as a forum we need carry this on maybe the rules need revising but the public ranting and running downs got to stop as as a group of one we can beat all challanges, big thanks to chris as without him and others could been differnt outcome so please all stop wats happend in past lets stop posting negitives well done all


----------



## Pauleve

OOps they seem to have blocked me as cant post anymore . Me thinks they are a bit peeved :whistling2:


----------



## Tarantulaguy01

Chris Newman said:


> WE WON
> 
> The show is on…….


:no1::2thumb::2thumb:


----------



## duvessa

Pauleve said:


> OOps they seem to have blocked me as cant post anymore . Me thinks they are a bit peeved :whistling2:


Me to :lol2:


----------



## dom1305

*F**k yehhh*

:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb


----------



## Blake1990

I think we all owe a massive thank you to the APA for helping us drive so many donations to the FBH. We should all email them to express our gratitude : victory:


----------



## Nikkeh

After posting one comment about them losing the fight in court today theyve blocked me from posting on their page haha!


----------



## Fionab

im not....... yet!


----------



## Nikkeh

Fionab said:


> im not....... yet!


I can still see your two comments :2thumb:

Edit: Never mind, they've deleted yours too haha.


----------



## Fionab

hahahah and blocked me! 
ah well it will keep them busy
and out of trouble!


----------



## Khaos

truncheon1973 said:


> i would swap an england win for toland getting bitten by a rabid dog


What about compromise, England draw and she gets bitten by a healthy dog?


----------



## Nikkeh

Gahhh!
This is what the APA have posted on their facebook!

ANIMAL DEALERS HAVE A COSTLY AND WASTED DAY IN COURT

Organisers of a proposed wildlife market in Doncaster had an expensive and wasted day in court today as the Judge decided that they can have a meeting at the Dome on Sunday 17th but reminded them that Council enforcement officers will be on site to gather evidence of any animal selling with a view to prosecution.

The organisers were hoping the Judge would give them a green light to sell animals by (as usual) trying to argue that their selling activities did not constitute carrying on a business of selling pets at a market – which is illegal. But instead the judge merely said that questions are raised over what constitutes carrying on a business, and Doncaster Council, as with other councils this year, have stated that ‘carrying on a business’ includes selling animals with a degree of repetition – making even small numbers of animal sales unlawful at the event. Accordingly, the Council will enforce the ‘no selling’ rule of law.

The prohibition on animal selling therefore remains, and the organisers are back where they were when the Dome managers offered them their event with a condition that no animal sales take place. The Judge’s ruling fully accommodates the Council’s stated intention to: send in enforcement teams to “monitor with a view to prosecuting breaches” and to issue letters to stallholders to ensure that they are properly informed of the ban on animal selling.


----------



## Fionab

oh my word have you seen their post on their facebook page.. i cant comment onit as im blocked they are saying the no sale ban is still in force! pmsl

Edit :damn you are too quick for me


----------



## LahmiaRaven

Nikkeh said:


> Gahhh!
> This is what the APA have posted on their facebook!
> 
> ANIMAL DEALERS HAVE A COSTLY AND WASTED DAY IN COURT
> 
> Organisers of a proposed wildlife market in Doncaster had an expensive and wasted day in court today as the Judge decided that they can have a meeting at the Dome on Sunday 17th but reminded them that Council enforcement officers will be on site to gather evidence of any animal selling with a view to prosecution.
> 
> The organisers were hoping the Judge would give them a green light to sell animals by (as usual) trying to argue that their selling activities did not constitute carrying on a business of selling pets at a market – which is illegal. But instead the judge merely said that questions are raised over what constitutes carrying on a business, and Doncaster Council, as with other councils this year, have stated that ‘carrying on a business’ includes selling animals with a degree of repetition – making even small numbers of animal sales unlawful at the event. Accordingly, the Council will enforce the ‘no selling’ rule of law.
> 
> The prohibition on animal selling therefore remains, and the organisers are back where they were when the Dome managers offered them their event with a condition that no animal sales take place. The Judge’s ruling fully accommodates the Council’s stated intention to: send in enforcement teams to “monitor with a view to prosecuting breaches” and to issue letters to stallholders to ensure that they are properly informed of the ban on animal selling.


Just seen this. I'm seriously PMSL!!! :lol2:


----------



## Khaos

duvessa said:


> Me to :lol2:


And me.

All I added was, on the caption 'Not depicted are the inhumane conditions in which the animals are kept...", was 'Not depicted because they don't exist?'.


----------



## Nikkeh

LahmiaRaven said:


> Just seen this. I'm seriously PMSL!!! :lol2:


I can't believe their cheek! Seriously dillusional.:devil::devil:


----------



## incrisis

Can I make a suggestion....
The APA are more than likely going to be attending the show and will probably be stood their waving their banners etc....
If they are, can everyone video them, especially if they shout out some of the threats etc. Would be nice if everyone could see what they are like.


----------



## duvessa

This is why we need Chris to confirm the deals of the judgement but I'm hoping this is all BS. Not that I begrudge Chris a beer or 10 he's earnt it today


----------



## Hutchie91

I lol'd at the APA's release, do they not know how to understand when they are beat.. 

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## lycanlord20

I was allowed to post on it, i dont think it will stay up long though


----------



## PureWelsh

*Hey*

So are the sales aloud?
Because chris hasn't said that the sale of animals are aloud?


----------



## Khaos

I'm thinking we could do with a Facebook group to give real-time updates and comments. 

My idea of an Animal Protection Agency Protection Agency (APAPA) (for protecting the sane, rest of the world from the APA) was in jest, but seeing the response today, I think it might be a fun little waggle of the nose... and we could get more likes than the real APA, I wager!

Shall I do it....?


----------



## Fionab

yep confirmation of the judgement passed would be good. The down side is that people read and believe the APA....

on a negative note, there HAS to be improvement at the shows, or we are not doing ourselves any favours, we need to self police ourselves and encourage people who are selling to always provide decent conditions ( i know the majority do but only one person is one too many) and not sell animals too yong/small/ light etc etc and they need to adhere to the rules of care sheets and breeder contact info. 
every single seller not doing this is giving the APA ammunition


----------



## Hutchie91

I also stand by a previous statement 

We should all chant 'we shall not be moved' as we walk in! APA? APA whooooo! 

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## kirsten

MCEE said:


> The fact that the APA has failed on this occasion needs to be tweeted and retweeted and their facebook page flooded with these facts. However, keep the comments professional, the purpose is to let the world know that we will not be bullied and that keeping/breeding herps is not the evil pursuit that the APA make it out to be.



you can't get anything on their page, they delete and block anything by anyone trying to show the facts and to highlight the spin and falsehoods they choose to post on their FB page.


----------



## davesreptiles

ive been blocked from apa facebook page to lol


----------



## Guy_Brooks

I will happily come, camera equipped to take photos and videos of the day and the APA


----------



## minniemax

They have blocked me on their facebook page and removed my comment, oh dear


----------



## lycanlord20

Im assuming the sales are allowed as he said it would go ahead as planned, and he refused an offer of allowing the show but with no sales


----------



## ophidianman

incrisis said:


> Can I make a suggestion....
> The APA are more than likely going to be attending the show and will probably be stood their waving their banners etc....
> If they are, can everyone video them, especially if they shout out some of the threats etc. Would be nice if everyone could see what they are like.



I have both of my full HD pocket cameras ready, 2 spare batteries and both have 16gb cards in and x20 zoom so I will be on the look out for and filming opportunities .


----------



## Dragon-shadow

Thank you very much Chris and everyone fighting to allow us to keep our pets and keep this industry alive!

To those of you going to the show (unfortunately I wont be unless someone is passing Banbury on the way up? Oh, um, and way back ), if there are people like the APA there, *

KEEP CALM*. 

Don't be stupid around them, 
don't be aggressive, 
don't give them ammo to throw back at us! 

They are nothing, do not even acknowledge they are there, they are not worth it, don't give them the attention they do not deserve! 

Please be sensible, they have filmed before they will film again if they can get a way with it, don't do something stupid that they can film and then use against us.


----------



## Guy_Brooks

ophidianman said:


> I have both of my full HD pocket cameras ready, 2 spare batteries and both have 16gb cards in and x20 zoom so I will be on the look out for and filming opportunities .


We shall be recognisable I think xD, but I have a big camera  (Canon 550D)


----------



## Fionab

can i point out that there is usually a no photography rule at doncaster please dont break any of their rules at that only invites more accusations. get permission from the show organisers and make sure that the venue allows photography first.. 
If photography is banned and APA dont have relevant permission they cannot use / publish the photographs , but neither can you!


----------



## Sid crock

They won't be outside....they will be inside filming, small camras on hats, bags, coats ect. No way will they show us who they are!!!
Can you see them standing outside I don't think so.


----------



## geckograham

Oh dear, they appear to have blocked me from their facebook page!


----------



## lycanlord20

the more cameras we have running outside the better, I would not be suprised if they do turn up and try to get a violent reaction from use, this could even mean them being violent first and editing the footage.


----------



## ian kerr

we hope to see you all there!

it is IMPORTANT that we dont retaliate with stupid post and threats towards them tho
if anybody thinks someone is apa at the show...report it to a member of staff

well done chris and the BHS:no1::notworthy::notworthy:


----------



## Stu MBM

the APA's latest post 
:devil:https://www.facebook.com/APAWild?sk=wall


----------



## The Hypnotoad

It may sound like a daft route but I suggest everybody reports the APA page and all of their posts for spam and hate speech. Trust me with the reports of facebook bullying everywhere they take action fast if enough report it.

I help run a darts forum online and a facebook group started posting pretending to be us effecting the website and potentially our tournaments. We got around 10 of us to report the page and within 48 hours it was taken down. Its not exactly the same thing but trust me Facebook are that scared they will take action if you email them saying their statements are borderline slander.

Glad its on as I will be going on Sunday. Well done everybody.


----------



## Khonsu

I think we all need to vigalant(ies) inside & keep an eye out for the scum secretly filming,I'll bring the feathers . . . .


----------



## westie1

I can't believe the pub dragged me away! 
Praise the lord for WiFi

WE Win!!!!!!!!!

So glad, now the long fight needs to he fought to protect our passion for ever.

Have a good weekend everyone


----------



## The Hypnotoad

Also another facebook trick, If you post a status and use their page name (thing it would be @Animal Protection Agency) in it then the post will show up on their website and I think that way gets around any blocks you have.


----------



## andy007

The Hypnotoad said:


> Also another facebook trick, If you post a status and use their page name (thing it would be @Animal Protection Agency) in it then the post will show up on their website and I think that way gets around any blocks you have.


*Goes off to try that one*


----------



## Phil75

Pauleve said:


> Keep Informing the A.P.A on their facebook site Animal Protection Agency | Facebook That the show goes ahead guys as they repeatedly are removing post's stating the fact .
> 
> LATEST High Court injunction granted in the High Court of Justice Chancery Division, London for the event to go ahead as per the usual event's in previous years.
> 
> Lets be a nuisance to them and spread the word :2thumb:


This is great. You can post all over there lies. Get posting there still lying after we won.


----------



## geckograham

The Hypnotoad said:


> Also another facebook trick, If you post a status and use their page name (thing it would be @Animal Protection Agency) in it then the post will show up on their website and I think that way gets around any blocks you have.


Doesn't work.


----------



## ophidianman

Guy_Brooks said:


> We shall be recognisable I think xD, but I have a big camera  (Canon 550D)


Heh, you obviously don't need to be able to smuggle camera (s) into gigs past door security then .

As usual at breeders meetings I'll have my Rush 'Fly by Night' T shirt on, the same logo as my avatar.


----------



## The Hypnotoad

geckograham said:


> Doesn't work.


damm thought it did


----------



## mushroomminer

So glad we won : victory: Theres going to be a lot more of this crap yet to come though I expect! 
I hope Donny goes well for everyone on sunday, I bet its going to be packed out now after all this! I wish I could go, it sucks having to work on a sunday


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Just got this from the APA facebook page.



> ANIMAL DEALERS HAVE A COSTLY AND WASTED DAY IN COURT
> 
> Organisers of a proposed wildlife market in Doncaster had an expensive and wasted day in court today as the Judge decided that they can have a meeting at the Dome on Sunday 17th but reminded them that Council enforcement officers will be on site to gather evidence of any animal selling with a view to prosecution.
> 
> The organisers were hoping th...e Judge would give them a green light to sell animals by (as usual) trying to argue that their selling activities did not constitute carrying on a business of selling pets at a market – which is illegal. But instead the judge merely said that questions are raised over what constitutes carrying on a business, and Doncaster Council, as with other councils this year, have stated that ‘carrying on a business’ includes selling animals with a degree of repetition – making even small numbers of animal sales unlawful at the event. Accordingly, the Council will enforce the ‘no selling’ rule of law.
> 
> The prohibition on animal selling therefore remains, and the organisers are back where they were when the Dome managers offered them their event with a condition that no animal sales take place. The Judge’s ruling fully accommodates the Council’s stated intention to: send in enforcement teams to “monitor with a view to prosecuting breaches” and to issue letters to stallholders to ensure that they are properly informed of the ban on animal selling.


Animal Protection Agency - Wall | Facebook


----------



## leponi

Well done guys if anyone sees any filming by APA then tell staff they can take there cameras as they can be accused of filming company sensitive data that's the law lol 


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?nz5xor


----------



## Sweetcorn

Latest statement on FB from the APA....who are clearly following these threads.

"It turns out there are no prohibitions on animal sales at all and we have lied to you. Lying is something we must do in order to protect exotic animals so we hope you understand and please send us more money."


----------



## Guy_Brooks

LOOK WHAT THE APA HAVE POSTED

CORRECTION ->

It turns out there are no prohibitions on animal sales at all and we have lied to you. Lying is something we must do in order to protect exotic animals so we hope you understand and please send us more money.

EVEN LOOK AT: https://www.facebook.com/APAWild?sk=wall

Edit: It's just been removed Hmmm


----------



## Cleggs

I gave it a go....didn't work for me


----------



## Meko

How about we all take pictures of our scrotums, upload to facebook and tag them in it. When people click on their page they'll just be faced with a wall of hairy ball bags?


----------



## trogdorable

Meko said:


> How about we all take pictures of our scrotums, upload to facebook and tag them in it. When people click on their page they'll just be faced with a wall of hairy ball bags?



may need to borrow someone elses :2thumb::lol2:


----------



## duvessa

Meko said:


> How about we all take pictures of our scrotums, upload to facebook and tag them in it. When people click on their page they'll just be faced with a wall of hairy ball bags?


If I had balls I'd do it and I don't think boobs would have the same effect:lol2:


----------



## Chromisca

Meko said:


> How about we all take pictures of our scrotums, upload to facebook and tag them in it. When people click on their page they'll just be faced with a wall of hairy ball bags?


Oh Meko, you give me so much joy 
:lol2:


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Guy_Brooks said:


> LOOK WHAT THE APA HAVE POSTED
> 
> CORRECTION ->
> 
> It turns out there are no prohibitions on animal sales at all and we have lied to you. Lying is something we must do in order to protect exotic animals so we hope you understand and please send us more money.
> 
> EVEN LOOK AT: https://www.facebook.com/APAWild?sk=wall
> 
> Edit: It's just been removed Hmmm











:lolsign::liar::roll2:

got this from another thread.


----------



## BoscMonster

Just got banned, from posting on their page.

I'll admit, very childish on my part.


----------



## BoscMonster

Salazare Slytherin said:


> image
> :lolsign::liar::roll2:
> 
> got this from another thread.


I may have copied you, a little. :lol2:


----------



## Iulia

I've posted, also. Wonder how long till I get banned :whistling2:


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

BoscMonster said:


> Just got banned, from posting on their page.
> 
> I'll admit, very childish on my part.
> 
> image


 
:flrt::lol2::2thumb::no1:<3


----------



## Tarron

lycanlord20 said:


> the more cameras we have running outside the better, I would not be suprised if they do turn up and try to get a violent reaction from use, this could even mean them being violent first and editing the footage.


If anyone tries to get physical, I'm happy to take a beating. I'm small and slim so will be an easy target and I can take a shoeing. I can see the suns headline now
"animal rights extremist attacks RAF technician"
That won't look good, just make site you film it,
:lol2:


----------



## duvessa

I'm wondering if I can make fb accounts faster than they can ban them hmmmmm


----------



## Iulia

Iulia said:


> I've posted, also. Wonder how long till I get banned :whistling2:


About 10 minutes!!!!!!!!!!!

Unbelieveable!!!!!!

So every single post they get that disagrees with them, they delete and ban the users.

That disgusts me.


----------



## alecwood

Guy_Brooks said:


> I thought what he said was slightly unusual but didn't want to say anything incase I got slated for "confronting the noob" but 1 post and this is it, joined since april (Could be someone on the inside that's just reading everything) and is basically telling us to giveup and seems to know nothing about shows.


I read rather than write, I don't want slated just for being a noob, so I don't post much unless I have some strong feelings I want to vent.

Someone asked what's Tor. Tor is the access to what's colloquially known as "The Dark Net", a part of the internet where traffic is anonymised and encrypted, run through proxies etc. The purpose of it is privacy, but obviously that means a lot of less than legal groups use it for their communications. As a two time victim of PETA, I've learned that knowing my enemy is useful.

To the substance of my post, no, I don't want us to give up. That doesn't mean I agree with everything that's said and/or proposed, but that fact doesn't make me an APA supporter either.

It's just my tuppence worth, take it, leave it, or even delete it. as you wish, but as a reptile keeper I figured I could make it


----------



## Meko

Iulia said:


> So every single post they get that disagrees with them, they delete and ban the users.
> .



Just need a load of American's to do it through the night now... make sure somebody has to sit up all night deleting comments.


----------



## Guy_Brooks

Should use that print screen against them and if they give us :censor: threaten to show it to all the people that back the APA


----------



## scubadude68

I'm very surprised, I posted that I'd be interested to read the full judicial statement un-edited of course, surprisingly my post has been removed :gasp:


----------



## Iulia

I think removing every post and comment that disagrees with or challenges you is quite despicable and cowardly behaviour


----------



## Meko

Iulia said:


> I think removing every post and comment that disagrees with or challenges you is quite despicable and cowardly behaviour



it's not 'cowardly', they just can't convince people they're telling the truth if they actually tell / admit the truth


----------



## Hutchie91

Iulia said:


> I think removing every post and comment that disagrees with or challenges you is quite despicable and cowardly behaviour


Typical APA then? 

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## MaddMe

I posted a brief message on their page... Which was:-

"Really, I heard this was not the case???" 

Within 30 seconds, I was blocked and my post was deleted... They really do go for freedom of speech!!!


----------



## Rybee

So even though the show is still going ahead, it's still illegal to trade. How exactly, is that a win?


----------



## lycanlord20

Rybee said:


> So even though the show is still going ahead, it's still illegal to trade. How exactly, is that a win?


its not illegal to trade, the APA are liars


----------



## Mynki

There are numerous other organisations that appear to like / support APA on Fscebook. Wild Wood Witches are one of them :-

Welcome to Facebook

You could tell them how APA are posting lies on FB...


----------



## alecwood

But is it illegal? The APA said that it was, and brought along a paid expert to convince the venue - but experts are paid to say what you tell them to say. I would have thought that, if it really were illegal, then we'd have had prosecutions from shows at some venues before now


----------



## Gar1on

alecwood said:


> But is it illegal? The APA said that it was, and brought along a paid expert to convince the venue - but experts are paid to say what you tell them to say. I would have thought that, if it really were illegal, then we'd have had prosecutions from shows at some venues before now


The legality of sales at these shows is obscure and can be argued either way. Whether or not the judge ruled in favour of shows or not is yet to be clarified and I am very keen to see a statement on the issue...


----------



## Mynki

Rybee said:


> So even though the show is still going ahead, it's still illegal to trade. How exactly, is that a win?


It is unlawful for businesses to sell live animals at the event. Should shop owners sell animals or even buy from breeders to sell on then it is my understanding that they are in breach of the law.

Only members of the IHS are allowed to sell their surplus animals. A fact that APA elude too. So technically what they have written is correct.

Historically traders have abused the show. I remember one gentleman on here offering for sale 2 GTP's he'd imported. They were on his table for sale at Doncaster. I saw them with my own eyes, and when challenged on here, he never denied it. He now has his own shop and so won't be selling. But the IHS has to ensure that there are no more greedy, idiots like this chap who abuse the system. 

Only private breeders who do not operate a business are allowed to sell.

Hope that makes sense.

P.S Businesses can legally sell equipment and foods etc.


----------



## Mynki

Gar1on said:


> The legality of sales at these shows is obscure and can be argued either way. Whether or not the judge ruled in favour of shows or not is yet to be clarified and I am very keen to see a statement on the issue...


It is not obscure it is very well defined. See my post above.


----------



## Meko

alecwood said:


> But is it illegal? The APA said that it was,



The APA quote the law that it's illegal to sell animals at markets. So all they do is re-word everything to make it look illegal
So instead of a breeders meeting / show / fair / whatever, they call it a market and then quote the law.


----------



## Rybee

lycanlord20 said:


> its not illegal to trade, the APA are liars





Mynki said:


> It is unlawful for businesses to sell live animals at the event. Should shop owners sell animals or even buy from breeders to sell on then it is my understanding that they are in breach of the law.
> 
> Only members of the IHS are allowed to sell their surplus animals. A fact that APA elude too. So technically what they have written is correct.
> 
> Historically traders have abused the show. I remember one gentleman on here offering for sale 2 GTP's he'd imported. They were on his table for sale at Doncaster. I saw them with my own eyes, and when challenged on here, he never denied it. He now has his own shop and so won't be selling. But the IHS has to ensure that there are no more greedy, idiots like this chap who abuse the system.
> 
> Only private breeders who do not operate a business are allowed to sell.
> 
> Hope that makes sense.
> 
> P.S Businesses can legally sell equipment and foods etc.





Meko said:


> The APA quote the law that it's illegal to sell animals at markets. So all they do is re-word everything to make it look illegal
> So instead of a breeders meeting / show / fair / whatever, they call it a market and then quote the law.



So the legal point at court today was whether or not 'market' could extend to mean breeders meeting/show?

S.2 Pets not to be sold in streets, &c.
If any person carries on a business of selling animals as pets in any part of a [F2street][F2road] or public place, [F3or] at a stall or barrow in a *market*, he shall be guilty of an offence.


It's just that everyone is saying 'we won' but nobody has stated the legal issue in discussion at court or what the ruling was.


----------



## Mynki

Rybee said:


> So the legal point at court today was whether or not 'market' could extend to mean breeders meeting/show?
> 
> S.2 Pets not to be sold in streets, &c.
> If any person carries on a business of selling animals as pets in any part of a [F2street][F2road] or public place, [F3or] at a stall or barrow in a *market*, he shall be guilty of an offence.
> 
> 
> It's just that everyone is saying 'we won' but nobody has stated the legal issue in discussion at court or what the ruling was.


Have you read the exchange of emails between Chris Newman and the Doncaster Council?

The show was always allowed to go on, the sticking point was whether or not live animals could be sold. So I assume from the very short post from Chris Newman saying "We won" that animals will now be able to be sold.

The Doncaster show is not a market, but an event held by the IHS in which private members can sell animals they have bred themselves as long as they are not registered businesses.


----------



## Rybee

Mynki said:


> Have you read the exchange of emails between Chris Newman and the Doncaster Council?
> 
> The show was always allowed to go on, the sticking point was whether or not live animals could be sold. So I assume from the very short post from Chris Newman saying "We won" that animals will now be able to be sold.
> 
> The Doncaster show is not a market, but an event held by the IHS in which private members can sell animals they have bred themselves as long as they are not registered businesses.


Excellent, that's the clarification I was after. It's just everybody was cluelessly shouting out 'we won', not knowing exactly what was 'won' and what that even meant. 

Thank you Mynki.


----------



## bigd_1

:no1:woohoo see you all there :no1:


----------



## Tarron

A 26 year old man welled up when reading the words 'we won' today.

Possibly quite sad, but hey!

Does anyone know if this sets a legal precedent on the selling of acnimajls at breeders meetings?


----------



## evoman

*great news*

really happy to hear the good news, even though I am depressingly stuck in the southwest and will miss the event.

But I am worried about the precedents that are being set, which may make it hard to contract a venue in the future. As is often the case with extremists, they frame their argument upon lies, half truths, exaggerations, generalizations, and fear mongering. The end result may be that venues decide that it is simply not worth the headache to host one of these events. 

I cannot make it up there to enjoy the fruits of this fight, but I hope that we have a future and I can attend some of the closer ones down the road.


----------



## geckograham

Rybee said:


> Excellent, that's the clarification I was after. It's just everybody was cluelessly shouting out 'we won', not knowing exactly what was 'won' and what that even meant.
> 
> Thank you Mynki.


You are dead wrong. I think everyone knew what we had "won". If you read the statement of facts thread you would see that the venue owners demanded that the sale of animals be prohibited, the IHS refused to do this, the council then said they were cancelling the event, council was taken to court and then WE WON!

The show is going ahead without the IHS agreeing to any ban.

WE

WON

!!!


----------



## Meko

Tarron said:


> Does anyone know if this sets a legal precedent on the selling of acnimajls at breeders meetings?


I think it probably will. If I remember correctly, didn't one get cancelled earlier and than another followed using the other in their reasoning?
Now there's been a court case where the meeting has been ruled legal and not a market. So if any other venues are faced with the same objections, they have a court ruled decision, to use in their favour.


----------



## alecwood

evoman said:


> But I am worried about the precedents that are being set, which may make it hard to contract a venue in the future. As is often the case with extremists, they frame their argument upon lies, half truths, exaggerations, generalizations, and fear mongering. The end result may be that venues decide that it is simply not worth the headache to host one of these events.


A few people have mentioned agricultural venues, racecourses etc - these places are well used to dealing with the various flavours of animal-rights activists, know their tactics and are unlikely to back down to them


----------



## andy007

This may clarify some things. Taken from the other thread - 



Aimo said:


> Haven't read all this post but;
> 
> Firstly big thanks to Chris & all others at FBH/IHS, as some have said this will not stop the APA, we need to all be more vigilant & pro active for the future.
> 
> Secondly Richard from IHS phoned me earlier this evening as he did to all table holders & clearly told me business as usual so i look forward to selliong you all my babies.


----------



## Tarron

Meko said:


> I think it probably will. If I remember correctly, didn't one get cancelled earlier and than another followed using the other in their reasoning?
> Now there's been a court case where the meeting has been ruled legal and not a market. So if any other venues are faced with the same objections, they have a court ruled decision, to use in their favour.


I thought that might be right. which means we've now gained some ammunition.

It may not stop the APA tactics, but we have yet another FACT to show the liars, lol.


----------



## Guy_Brooks

So if we see a member/s of the APA what should we do ?


----------



## DaveM

Guy_Brooks said:


> So if we see a member/s of the APA what should we do ?


Offer them KFC, I bet all that hate makes them hungry


----------



## Blake1990

Guy_Brooks said:


> So if we see a member/s of the APA what should we do ?


Pity them, and remember just how strong we are!


----------



## lycanlord20

just report it to staff


----------



## alecwood

Meko said:


> Now there's been a court case where the meeting has been ruled legal and not a market.


Sorry but I disagree. According to the published exchanges with the venue, the judge was to be asked to rule on the legality of the conduct of the venue, specifically if the imposition of new conditions at such a late stage put them in breach of contract, not the legality of the show itself. It might sound like nitpicking but these details are important. It may be that the judge did nothing more than find the venue to be in breach of contract.

Hopefully we can soon see a copy of the judgement then we can all stop worrying about it

I do think though, that the issue of market or not, sales of animals etc, is a matter for the council's inspectors, not the venue. I've not heard of anyone being prosecuted for selling an animal at any of the previous shows, so why should any council start doing so now.


----------



## Meko

Guy_Brooks said:


> So if we see a member/s of the APA what should we do ?



Get their autograph


----------



## Rybee

Still a bit confused as to the facts. If the decision was based on the meaning of the words in the Act:

Yes it will set a legal precedent until the decision is overturned in the civil division of the court of Appeal because the High Court is legally bound by it's own decisions. 

The practicality of taking any decision to the court of Appeal is not wide. It could easily cost hundreds of thousands of pounds and it would take years. That's if there's a case to answer, which IMO, I don't think there is. The judiciary are there to interpret the law and enforce it, not create it. I don't see how the wording of the Act. can be construed as to be side wide in meaning from a public market to a private exhibition. 

So this decision is quite significant, until it's taken to the Court of Appeal or new legislation is brought in defying it, it will be forever legal to trade at private exhibitions, possibly even public ones.



If the court issue was on the status of the contract, then no. The wording of the Act. will have to be debated in the high court.


----------



## andy007

Guy_Brooks said:


> So if we see a member/s of the APA what should we do ?


Take their picture. Then we can start a hall of shame:2thumb:


----------



## Meko

alecwood said:


> Sorry but I disagree. According to the published exchanges with the venue, the judge was to be asked to rule on the legality of the conduct of the venue, specifically if the imposition of new conditions at such a late stage put them in breach of contract, not the legality of the show itself. It might sound like nitpicking but these details are important. It may be that the judge did nothing more than find the venue to be in breach of contract.
> 
> Hopefully we can soon see a copy of the judgement then we can all stop worrying about it
> 
> I do think though, that the issue of market or not, sales of animals etc, is a matter for the council's inspectors, not the venue. I've not heard of anyone being prosecuted for selling an animal at any of the previous shows, so why should any council start doing so now.


Chris commented that 'you know who' had been sticking their oar in.. Which was clearly the APA and their issue isn't the venue in breach of contract but the whole issue of selling animals.
But would a judge rule that it's ok to allow the illegal selling of animals if an animal rights group was throwing the law in? Which would give the impression that it was accepted that it wasn't a 'market' and that no laws are being broken, and not just a breach of contract.


----------



## alecwood

only if that's what the judge was ruling on


----------



## Guy_Brooks

DaveM said:


> Offer them KFC, I bet all that hate makes them hungry


:lol2: I tihnk I may eat it before them though :blush:. I'll just bring a cow *Cough Elaine Toland Cough* along.



Blake1990 said:


> Pity them, and remember just how strong we are!


And puff out our chests 



lycanlord20 said:


> just report it to staff


Ok now serious, thanks mate will do



Meko said:


> Get their autograph
> 
> image


Oooo wow that would be a very good idea! And a photo with them


----------



## storm

i dont think that we can speculate over what was actually said at this stage, but im sure chris will update with any details he see's relevant. 

But at the end of the day, as curious as we all are.. he is not obliged or required to disclose details of the proceedings.. we know what we need to know - that the show is going ahead as usual. 

we also have to bare in mind that we may never be privy to some of the details, as publically posting too much information could do more harm than good, especially when you dont know who is reading...

i think we should all chill our beans and continue to provide the support for the FBH that i have seen today x


----------



## Rybee

storm said:


> we also have to bare in mind that we may never be privy to some of the details, as publically posting too much information could do more harm than good, especially when you dont know who is reading...


But the case will be publicly accessible when it's been reported.


----------



## storm

Rybee said:


> But the case will be publicly accessible when it's been reported.


possibly, but until then what good is speculation going to do?


----------



## berksmike

I would imagine that the legality of sales would have to be part of the argument.
A judge would not rule that Doncaster were in breach of contract if the contract compelled them to allow an event on their premises in breach of the Animal Sales Act.
It would be compelling them to break the law


----------



## ophidianman

storm said:


> i dont think that we can speculate over what was actually said at this stage, but im sure chris will update with any details he see's relevant.
> 
> But at the end of the day, as curious as we all are.. he is not obliged or required to disclose details of the proceedings.. we know what we need to know - that the show is going ahead as usual.
> 
> we also have to bare in mind that we may never be privy to some of the details, as publically posting too much information could do more harm than good, especially when you dont know who is reading...
> 
> i think we should all chill our beans and continue to provide the support for the FBH that i have seen today x



Very wise words young Lady.....


----------



## charlesthompson

To see so many people offer their support is great, it will be awesome to see how many people turn up to hear first hand whats happened at the fbh conference today. Considering the populous on here lets hope we get more that the 100-125 people that turned up last year?????

This is peoples opportunity to have an opinion on the future of YOUR hobby, use the open forum for discussion with the guys who matter.

Well done to all who fought the fight and won, but now we need to regroup and strength in numbers at the conference, not just the show to buy cheap reptiles.


----------



## BenjaminBoaz

charlesthompson said:


> To see so many people offer their support is great, it will be awesome to see how many people turn up to hear first hand whats happened at the fbh conference today. Considering the populous on here lets hope we get more that the 100-125 people that turned up last year?????
> 
> This is peoples opportunity to have an opinion on the future of YOUR hobby, use the open forum for discussion with the guys who matter.
> 
> Well done to all who fought the fight and won, but now we need to regroup and strength in numbers at the conference, not just the show to buy cheap reptiles.


We would love to have come to the conference as we told Richard. Sadly with 3 kids, 2 rather young it's hard for us to get them minded for so long. We will be at the show though and looking forward to seeing old friends once again, and of course new. I hope everyone has a great day today that's attending the conference and once more congratulate the efforts of those that have made this weekend happen. Well done and thank you.


----------



## Strictlymorphsuk

tarron said:


> if anyone tries to get physical, i'm happy to take a beating. I'm small and slim so will be an easy target and i can take a shoeing. I can see the suns headline now
> "animal rights extremist attacks raf technician"
> that won't look good, just make site you film it,
> :lol2:


thats alright ican jump in and evict them from the premises look even worse at a raf and an sia getting assulted


----------



## geckograham

I've just checked the APA website and it seems they have removed their top story which proclaimed a total ban on animal sales at the show! Now the top story is the "call to all whistleblowers" thing that was further down the list yesterday.


----------



## LiamRatSnake

geckograham said:


> I've just checked the APA website and it seems they have removed their top story which proclaimed a total ban on animal sales at the show! Now the top story is the "call to all whistleblowers" thing that was further down the list yesterday.


It's still written on their FB page. I reported it as spam. I hope others report it too.


----------



## geckograham

I'm talking about the story that was there since Thursday.


----------



## MCEE

Seems the APA is buckling under the criticism. They have posted and article on their FB page to reflect this.


----------



## PhillyDee

geckograham said:


> I've just checked the APA website and it seems they have removed their top story which proclaimed a total ban on animal sales at the show! Now the top story is the "call to all whistleblowers" thing that was further down the list yesterday.


They have not, they are still claiming a ban has been imposed. If only there was a way to actually report this to the authorities. I am pretty sure it comes under fraud.


----------



## PhillyDee

MCEE said:


> Seems the APA is buckling under the criticism. They have posted and article on their FB page to reflect this.


No they have not. They are claiming exactly what people knew they would. They claim THEY have been harassed, threatened etc. 

What a surprise!


----------



## paulie78

PhillyDee said:


> No they have not. They are claiming exactly what people knew they would. They claim THEY have been harassed, threatened etc.
> 
> What a surprise!


*
Thats actually almost funny!! the words glass houses and stones spring to mind *:lol2:


----------



## PureWelsh

*hey.*

I just got off the phone with one of the doncaster dome organisers and i asked ‘are the sales of live animals aloud’ and she said yes they are :2thumb:


----------



## MCEE

PhillyDee said:


> No they have not. They are claiming exactly what people knew they would. They claim THEY have been harassed, threatened etc.
> 
> What a surprise!


You are correct, what they have posted is no big surprise but it was the criticism they have been subject to over the last 48hrs that has prompted the post. They are trying, as you have pointed out, to counter the criticism they have been recieving by making out they are victims.

It's quite funny really as we all know they are as transparent as water.


----------



## geckograham

Just read their facebook post, mudslinging, pure and simple!

I find it hard to believe anything they say BUT if anyone has made any kind of threat towards the APA or it's executives, shame on you. If we lower ourselves to their level, they will easily beat us with experience!

They moan about their facebook page "being abused" yet my completely civil comments were removed and I was blocked from the page! Their spin is worthy of any high ranking Tory and such propaganda campaigns have not been seen since the 1940's.

Is there anyone they haven't blocked and has a minute to waste making a post in our defence?


----------



## MCEE

geckograham said:


> Just read their facebook post, mudslinging, pure and simple!
> 
> I find it hard to believe anything they say BUT if anyone has made any kind of threat towards the APA or it's executives, shame on you. If we lower ourselves to their level, they will easily beat us with experience!
> 
> They moan about their facebook page "being abused" yet my completely civil comments were removed and I was blocked from the page! Their spin is worthy of any high ranking Tory and such propaganda campaigns have not been seen since the 1940's.
> 
> Is there anyone they haven't blocked and has a minute to waste making a post in our defence?


The comments I have seen (before they had a chance to delete them) were just critical of their lies. There was nothing I would classify as abusive or threatening. The APA are such drama queens.


----------



## paulie78

geckograham said:


> Just read their facebook post, mudslinging, pure and simple!
> 
> I find it hard to believe anything they say BUT if anyone has made any kind of threat towards the APA or it's executives, shame on you. If we lower ourselves to their level, they will easily beat us with experience!
> 
> They moan about their facebook page "being abused" yet my completely civil comments were removed and I was blocked from the page! Their spin is worthy of any high ranking Tory and such propaganda campaigns have not been seen since the 1940's.
> 
> Is there anyone they haven't blocked and has a minute to waste making a post in our defence?



I did try i was perfectly polite and objective but like yourself i was blocked from the page much as i have a rather strong dislike for them i dont think any of us stand to benefit in any way by stooping to the same kinda low handed tactics they have!


----------



## madaboutreptiles

MCEE said:


> The comments I have seen (before they had a chance to delete them) were just critical of their lies. There was nothing I would classify as abusive or threatening. The APA are such drama queens.


I agree they are drama queens but they are far better at this PR stuff than we are

Everyone will think they are the victims now


----------



## PhillyDee

madaboutreptiles said:


> I agree they are drama queens but they are far better at this PR stuff than we are
> 
> Everyone will think they are the victims now


Exactly. There is the small fact that their website also looks far far more professional than the IHS and FBH. It is poorly maintained and very poorly formatted. 

I think the whole thing needs an overhaul, as I know when I booked for donny, I was not sure if it was even the right site, the articles on the main page are 4 years out of date. 

There must be some good website designers amongst the people on here! I have zero skills, and even less time but if I could help I would. I think this should be a rallying call.

I have nothing but praise for things 'getting done' and the amount of time spent by Chris and the team has been absolutley phenomenal. Incredibly professional responses, however, as has been noted, awful PR. I would be happy to help maintain the website, editing articles, keeping an eye out etc, but I have no time at all past that. If the IHS or FBH want to make use of me, I can donate an hour or 2 per week.


----------



## MCEE

madaboutreptiles said:


> I agree they are drama queens but they are far better at this PR stuff than we are
> 
> Everyone will think they are the victims now



Only the gullable.


----------



## Blake1990

Please be aware the cisionwire is a PR tool and the article (although cleverly worded) is infact written and published by the APA. Cisionwire is not an independant media company like they are trying to make out. The show is on, animals can be responsibly traded, and we can all have a great weekend : victory:

These last minuit underhand tactics show just how beaten they are :2thumb:


----------



## philipniceguy

Chris Newman said:


> WE WON
> 
> The show is on…….


cant ask for a better outcome, top bloke and top win, keep up the good work for our hobby:no1::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy: :notworthy::notworthy:


----------



## Elmodfz

> ANIMAL DEALERS HURL THREATS, INSULTS AND FABRICATIONS
> 
> Hi Facebook friends! During the past few days some of you can probably not help but have been exposed to some aggressive, inaccurate, and impolite comments posted by disgruntled animal dealers who are venting their anger at Doncaster Council’s commitment to enforce a ‘no animal selling’ rule at what pet peddlers had hoped would be a reptile market tomorrow.
> 
> In addition, there appear to be a number of abusive comments from would-be buyers and sellers who have still yet to be informed by their own side that the ‘no animal selling’ rule will be fully enforced on the day. Some of these people wrongly think they have been misled by APA, whereas APA has consistently stated the Council’s own published conditions, which are:
> 
> 1. As landlord to Doncaster Community Leisure Trust we have requested that they impose a condition on the show organisers that there will be a total prohibition on animal sales. This will be communicated to the organisers by the Trust.
> 
> 2. In the event that the show now proceeds, officers from our enforcement teams will attend the event to monitor with a view to prosecuting breaches.
> 
> (Legal Section, Doncaster Council)
> 
> A High Court judge yesterday acknowledged Doncaster Council’s rules as the conditions if the event proceeded.
> 
> Not only have these traders busied themselves by abusing the open access of our Facebook page, but we have also received abusive and threatening phone calls and messages, including death threats. Our opponents have also issued slurs trying to associate APA with ‘terrorist activists’ in vein efforts to undermine APA’s authority. But be reassured that APA will not be deflected from its scientific and legal evidence-based work!
> 
> We will continue to promptly record and delete rude and misleading FB messages as well as report abuses to Facebook. Facebook has recently stated that it will help unmask abusers' identities following a recent ‘trolling’ case. The treatment that APA staff has dealt with over the last few days, in general, constitutes harassment. The more serious threats are being reported to the police.
> 
> As I’m sure you realise, the campaign of negativity towards APA by animal dealers reflects disgruntlement of animal abusers at the effectiveness of our work. Nevertheless, we feel we must apologise for any distasteful comments that ‘slip through the net’.
> 
> Thanks, APA


That's the full quote from their facebook page. I've been watching this unfold and getting involved behind the scenes as it were. My comments which I posted a few months ago were deleted within minutes and I was banned from their page, just for pointing out how they were wrong in their videos etc.

The things that worries me is how their followers are so ignorant and blindly following everything the APA say and do. I am quite tempted to message everyone of their followers and explain to them, with links as proof, how the APA systematically fabricate everything they write, and twist the facts to suit them.

I have recently added them on Twitter so I can retweet their nonsense and correctly point out to their followers how much they lie to everyone who I presume gives them money.

I've never been to Doncaster for the reptile show, but I am glad the court case was won because it means that everyone who was going to sell/buy animals can still do so, and can still protect their livelihood. Is there going to be a full report of the court case online anywhere that I can get my mitts on?


----------



## LiamRatSnake

Elmodfz said:


> That's the full quote from their facebook page. I've been watching this unfold and getting involved behind the scenes as it were. My comments which I posted a few months ago were deleted within minutes and I was banned from their page, just for pointing out how they were wrong in their videos etc.
> 
> The things that worries me is how their followers are so ignorant and blindly following everything the APA say and do. I am quite tempted to message everyone of their followers and explain to them, with links as proof, how the APA systematically fabricate everything they write, and twist the facts to suit them.
> 
> I have recently added them on Twitter so I can retweet their nonsense and correctly point out to their followers how much they lie to everyone who I presume gives them money.
> 
> I've never been to Doncaster for the reptile show, but I am glad the court case was won because it means that everyone who was going to sell/buy animals can still do so, and can still protect their livelihood. Is there going to be a full report of the court case online anywhere that I can get my mitts on?


No sellers, of course, need their livelihoods protecting as only hobbyists selling surplus stock sell their animals at Doncaster.


----------



## andy007

Elmodfz said:


> My comments which I posted a few months ago were deleted within minutes and I was banned from their page, just for pointing out how they were wrong in their videos etc.


I got blocked for merely pointing out that I called The Dome and they said it was still on. Now for all the APA knew, I was just Joe Bloggs, but as the post was deleted it becomes obvious that they don't want anything posted contrary to their beliefs even if it is the truth.

They are purely using the fact that us herpers are monitoring their page, just like they are ours, and by posting the things they have they hope that people wont go. However, if people have been really abusive and threatening they need to count to 10 before becoming keyboard warriors, as it just shows immaturity.


----------



## Brian J

Someone should make a Facebook page for every statement the apa put out is answered and shown as lies fight them the same way there fighting us, and when they start posting on it don't delete it just prove them to be the idiots they are.


----------



## racingbrett

Brian J said:


> Someone should make a Facebook page for every statement the apa put out is answered and shown as lies fight them the same way there fighting us, and when they start posting on it don't delete it just prove them to be the idiots they are.


already been worked on

Animal Protection Agency Propaganda Awareness | Facebook


----------



## Cleggs

Elmodfz said:


> That's the full quote from their facebook page. I've been watching this unfold and getting involved behind the scenes as it were. My comments which I posted a few months ago were deleted within minutes and I was banned from their page, just for pointing out how they were wrong in their videos etc.
> 
> The things that worries me is how their followers are so ignorant and blindly following everything the APA say and do. I am quite tempted to message everyone of their followers and explain to them, with links as proof, how the APA systematically fabricate everything they write, and twist the facts to suit them.
> 
> I have recently added them on Twitter so I can retweet their nonsense and correctly point out to their followers how much they lie to everyone who I presume gives them money.
> 
> I've never been to Doncaster for the reptile show, but I am glad the court case was won because it means that everyone who was going to sell/buy animals can still do so, and can still protect their livelihood. Is there going to be a full report of the court case online anywhere that I can get my mitts on?


This tickles me you think if they got these"messages comments"they would leave them up on show for evidence so we can all see.
And apart from it all being a pack off lies to get the boo hoo support they got done a few years ago by advertising agency for telling a pack off lies in a information sheet they was peddling if I can find it again il post it up it amused me for ten minuets


----------



## MCEE

Just had a thought, could their recent posts re the Doncaster Breeders Meet now be considered libelous now that a judge has ruled it can go ahead as normal. Should the FBH be sending a "cease and decist" letter every time they try and spread negative propaganda like this to try and disrupt the lawful organisation and running of an event with their blatent lies.

It seems too easy that they can be allowed to lie so blatently and get away with it, especially when these lies could effect the outcome of lawful activities.

I am all for free speech as long as it contains truths and substantiated facts but the APA seem to adhere to neither.


----------



## mstypical

MCEE said:


> Just had a thought, could their recent posts re the Doncaster Breeders Meet now be considered libelous now that a judge has ruled it can go ahead as normal. Should the FBH be sending a "cease and decist" letter every time they try and spread negative propaganda like this to try and disrupt the lawful organisation and running of an event with their blatent lies.
> 
> It seems too easy that they can be allowed to lie so blatently and get away with it, especially when these lies could effect the outcome of lawful activities.
> 
> I am all for free speech as long as it contains truths and substantiated facts but the APA seem to adhere to neither.


It's unreal isn't it, i'm wondering how a registered charity can get away with it as well!


----------



## Brian J

racingbrett said:


> already been worked on
> 
> Animal Protection Agency Propaganda Awareness | Facebook



All that page is doing is putting the apa statements all in one place, where is the arguments againsed them statements showing evidence that the statements are wrong??


----------



## racingbrett

Brian J said:


> All that page is doing is putting the apa statements all in one place, where is the arguments againsed them statements showing evidence that the statements are wrong??


not sure what you mean, when i was reading through it the arguments and evidence were placed there in the comments.


----------



## MCEE

Brian J said:


> All that page is doing is putting the apa statements all in one place, where is the arguments againsed them statements showing evidence that the statements are wrong??


You will find the counter arguments in the comments.


----------



## Brian J

racingbrett said:


> not sure what you mean, when i was reading through it the arguments and evidence were placed there in the comments.


All I seen was statements from the apa and counter statements by Chris Newman that does not seem like evidence to me. The apa keep quoting outrageous statistics, where are we pointing out the statistics are incorrect?? Where are the photos and videos of healthy cared for animals and conservation statistics from with in the hobby?? 

There winning because they are orginized and together, we are to busy arguing and putting each other down. Why isn't RFUK, Captive Bred and all the other big forums working together to be the voice backing the front line fighters we are the majority they are the minority, yet where getting our asses handed to us. Where are all the society,fedaration,club leaders why are they not on here rallying the troops. It's time we stood together and be heard.


----------



## MCEE

Brian J said:


> There winning because they are orginized and together, we are to busy arguing and putting each other down. Why isn't RFUK, Captive Bred and all the other big forums working together to be the voice backing the front line fighters we are the majority they are the minority, yet where getting our asses handed to us. Where are all the society,fedaration,club leaders why are they not on here rallying the troops. It's time we stood together and be heard.


RFUK, Captive Bred et al are only forums. They are not a club or organisation they are just somewhere where like-minded hobbyists can discuss ideas and share knowledge. The organisations like IHS and FBH and their members who are the voice of the hobby and are the ones who will stand up for us.

And as for asking "where are all the scociety, federation, club leaders...? Who do you think bl**dy well stood up in court on Friday to fight our corner? Father bl**dy Christmas?


----------



## Brian J

MCEE said:


> RFUK, Captive Bred et al are only forums. They are not a club or organisation they are just somewhere where like-minded hobbyists can discuss ideas and share knowledge. The organisations like IHS and FBH and their members who are the voice of the hobby and are the ones who will stand up for us.
> 
> And as for asking "where are all the scociety, federation, club leaders...? Who do you think bl**dy well stood up in court on Friday to fight our corner? Father bl**dy Christmas?


No mean the forum members not the forums them self we should be fighting together by joining the clubs and society's and working together instead of fighting about which is the best forum and best members, and I know the clubs are fighting but you don't see them on here often with info of what's going on what's being done and how we can help, only exception is Chris and that's not often and he's the first to admit it. How many times has it been said in threads about people not knowing who to join or why to join?? I know there all volunteers and it's hard work but they chose to be the voice, look at there websites its hard work on most of them dead links out of date info and so on, they have these forums as amazing tools and they are not being used correctly in my opinion. I'm not having a go at the ones fighting I'm saying it should all be pulled together to make 1 big voice and be heard.


----------



## racingbrett

What this hobby needs is less bickering between hobbyists, people to join and support organizations that all link up to one larger body and i feel most importantly some PR. What the FBH has done is a great thing and Chris kept everyone on the forums up to date as and when he knew the info himself but i cant help but feel that more publicity is needed to get the true story out there for all to see not just the hobbyists but the public as well.
Done get me wrong i dont want to criticize as the guys have done a great job, im just kinda thinking out loud as to what the next step may be.


----------



## Brian J

racingbrett said:


> What this hobby needs is less bickering between hobbyists, people to join and support organizations that all link up to one larger body and i feel most importantly some PR. What the FBH has done is a great thing and Chris kept everyone on the forums up to date as and when he knew the info himself but i cant help but feel that more publicity is needed to get the true story out there for all to see not just the hobbyists but the public as well.
> Done get me wrong i dont want to criticize as the guys have done a great job, im just kinda thinking out loud as to what the next step may be.


That's exactly the point I'm making, and the place to do the PR is here and free also facebook is a amazing tool but there not being used correctly sadly, I am not having a go at them, but there voice would be loader with all the members of all the forums behind them.


----------



## charlesthompson

Congrats to all thos who turned up yesterday in support but in truth it was shameful to see the numbers. Simply because reptiles were not for sale was the main mitigating factor as to their abscence (i know some of you have families, responsibilities so dont flame) and hence why out of the god knows how many thousand registered here 10-15-20K+ only 150 tops turned out. It was shameful. A lot of interesting conversations took place in the open forum where problems were raised, members here simply missed an opportunity to be heard, it is to be hoped all who contributed yesterday spoke in your interests as well as theirs. The was some empassioned speakers from all walks of the hobby, trade. I spoke simply as a trader, a woman with 8 months keeping experience spoke and her opinion was just as valid. 

Unfortunately we were told divide and conquer was the best way to bring us down, that consildation and organisiation was the way forward, by a man who would know how to bring us down. So what happened at the end two different society members (comittee me, rediculously enough) stood up and started taking pot shots at one anther, it was totally rediculous and made themselves and us a laughing stock. 

Unity under a single banner, a consiladation of resource under one banner, whether that be fbh, ihs or euark is the only way we will have the strength to see off the organised, devisive and strategic might of the antis. 

Unfortunately im resigned to the fact that the level of apathy in the hobby is rife and yesterday proved it, a serious threat to the hobby was averted, just at a cost to the fbh of 15K!!!!!!!!!! , how many turned up to be heard, to congratulate, to celebrate the hobby. 150?

Things have got to change if there is going to even be a hobby to change. I hope the show today goes without issue, and that moving forward the hobby can find some sort of unity if only to stop it from self combustion.

regards chaz


----------



## charlesthompson

looking at the post previous, until we can get the societies to stop fighting one another and being too stubborn to give up their title of chair in some regional society this will continue. You think that we have problems with the antis, even the organisations trying to mobilise the reptile keeping masses , have problems with one another and until that is resolved issues will remain. 


I hope every one seeks out Chris Newman today to thank him for his efforts over the past few days.


----------



## charlesthompson

MCEE said:


> RFUK, Captive Bred et al are only forums. They are not a club or organisation they are just somewhere where like-minded hobbyists can discuss ideas and share knowledge. The organisations like IHS and FBH and their members who are the voice of the hobby and are the ones who will stand up for us.
> 
> And as for asking "where are all the scociety, federation, club leaders...? Who do you think bl**dy well stood up in court on Friday to fight our corner? Father bl**dy Christmas?


 
You should be a member, and you and you. These organisations have hardly got a pot to piss in. To molbilise, organise inform and make change resources have to change, how do you think they fund these excursions to court with pixie dust?

Everyone on here should be a member of fbh or ihs if the hobby is to survive.

(of course i know you dont think its fairy dust but opefully my point stands)


----------



## badger13

Just leaving to go to Donny. Just a thought for future events failing to plan is planning to fail. Become proactive not reactive do not wait for the apa to get the high ground. Form a fighting committee from all the relevant reptile organisations. Speak with one voice.


----------



## lycanlord20

In the que


----------



## Tarron

lycanlord20 said:


> In the que


Only just? you want to get aome time in, I've been here nearly 2 hours, lol


----------



## geckograham

Also queuing!


----------



## starchilduk

Congrats to Chris for his effort and input to this cause. Now i know i dont post much here, so bear with me.

My reason for posting is as follows.

Following the statement releases by the APA and the battle that has been fought by Chris, could we, in a way, fight fire with fire? In that, the APA appear to have a lead on PR and misinforming people of how animals are kept and the damage that it allegedly causes. Should the herp bodies of the UK by activley promoting the benefits to captive breeding and start publishing facts on their own websites and social media? I have read already that the IHS has details that are around four years old. If they use PR to inform the public then the APA would perhaps not get mis informed people rallying for their cause? These bodies need support to ensure that information is clear and concise to the general puplic at large.

Maybe the breeders meetings should agree on a minimum level of due care, saftey and housing methods utilised at such meeting thus limiting the amount of comments surrounding the term pet peddleing. This way we are all showing a degree of responsibility to the animals and their welfare during such meetings. If a breeder who has a table at the meeting is not meeting the minimum requirements, then they need to either meet these immediatley or be asked to leave.

Comments surrounding deaths in younglings and health of persons owing and exhibiting exotic pets should be clarified through all mediums face on. Lets face it we all face disease and contamination at the local hostpital as opposed to breeders meetings. I needn't dwell on this.

I have read most of the comments of the last 70 pages and do feel that infighting should stop and for us all to support our herp bodies, so that they have the means and funding to support this hobby and that of the ancillary hardware manufacturers that supply the products that we need to support the animals in our care. If we go down, then so will a whole industry of reptile keeping manufacturers too. Has this even been considered?

Maybe these manufacturers who have money could help and support the IHS and FBH to ensure that our hobby is protected and that it may continue for years to come.

Our method of delivery of this information to the public is paramount, we should easily be able to weed out a few "do gooders" who think that we are all uneducated people with a single cell of intelligence.

I will not be at the show today, regrettably, but will be there in September. It needs to happen and I will be donating and supporting the bodies that are supporting us. I plead that these bodies are supported so that they can effectivley deliver the real facts surrounding our hobby.

Enjoy the show folks.


----------



## lycanlord20

Tarron said:


> Only just? you want to get aome time in, I've been here nearly 2 hours, lol


yeah but it only took me 20 mins to get there, lol


----------



## Sephiroth

mstypical said:


> It's unreal isn't it, i'm wondering how a registered charity can get away with it as well!


they are *not* a registered charity. They are a limited company.


----------



## mstypical

Sephiroth said:


> they are *not* a registered charity. They are a limited company.


Well they have a registered charity number on their website? Registered Charity No. 1123569


----------



## Poxicator

Sephiroth said:


> they are *not* a registered charity. They are a limited company.


I often see this quoted and think "its another of those repeat as necessary posts". It doesnt take much to find out:
Fundraising Standards Board - Membership Directory


----------



## Sephiroth

That's the Animal Protection Agency *Foundation* which doesn't do anything. The "foundation" has nothing to do with the campaign against reptile keeping and it can't because of the regulations regarding charities in the uk.

APA Ltd is what they use to campaign against reptile keeping. They can't register the APA Ltd as a charity because they do not comply with those regulations.

They even make this distinction on their website.

http://www.apa.org.uk/about/profile.html


----------



## truncheon1973

Sephiroth said:


> That's the Animal Protection Agency *Foundation* which doesn't do anything. The "foundation" has nothing to do with the campaign against reptile keeping and it can't because of the regulations regarding charities in the uk.
> 
> APA Ltd is what they use to campaign against reptile keeping. They can't register the APA Ltd as a charity because they do not comply with those regulations.
> 
> They even make this distinction on their website.
> 
> Animal Protection Agency


 
you can still complain about the foundation to the CHARITIES COMISSION 

the foundation is still linked to the proper apa so they can take action


----------



## MCEE

Brian J said:


> That's exactly the point I'm making, and the place to do the PR is here and free also facebook is a amazing tool but there not being used correctly sadly, I am not having a go at them, but there voice would be loader with all the members of all the forums behind them.


For a start not everyone uses FB or agrees with their ethics (I know many who will not use it) and not everyone who keeps herps is a member of the forums. So why should either of these be catalysts of organised activities for the hobby.


Forums such as this are, indeed, a good way of communicatiog news from the battlefront of campaigners v hobbyists but it does not mean the FBH or IHS et al are contract bound to use them. If these forums and FB disappeared tomorrow it does not mean the organisations will cease the work they do.

The whole point point of these forum is to communicate ideas, knowledge and, yes, bicker if we so wish. Even families bicker, so what? It does not mean we do not have a common interest. And that is the difference between us hobbyist and organisations like the APA.
Us hobbyists are not afraid to speak our minds, good or bad, air our dirty washing, disagree, bicker and have open debate. We do this because we have open forums as a tool to do this. Something the APA do not have. They only publish, discuss and wallow in propaganda that they believe favours their position in order to subdue their gullable followers. This is not an open, honest, and organised group of people, it is likened to a dictatorship.

I know which camp in I would rather exist.


----------



## Janine00

charlesthompson said:


> Congrats to all thos who turned up yesterday in support but in truth it was shameful to see the numbers. Simply because reptiles were not for sale was the main mitigating factor as to their abscence (i know some of you have families, responsibilities so dont flame) and hence why out of the god knows how many thousand registered here 10-15-20K+ only 150 tops turned out. It was shameful. A lot of interesting conversations took place in the open forum where problems were raised, members here simply missed an opportunity to be heard, it is to be hoped all who contributed yesterday spoke in your interests as well as theirs. The was some empassioned speakers from all walks of the hobby, trade. I spoke simply as a trader, a woman with 8 months keeping experience spoke and her opinion was just as valid.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately we were told divide and conquer was the best way to bring us down, that consildation and organisiation was the way forward, by a man who would know how to bring us down. So what happened at the end two different society members (comittee me, rediculously enough) stood up and started taking pot shots at one anther, it was totally rediculous and made themselves and us a laughing stock.
> 
> Unity under a single banner, a consiladation of resource under one banner, whether that be fbh, ihs or euark is the only way we will have the strength to see off the organised, devisive and strategic might of the antis.
> 
> Unfortunately im resigned to the fact that the level of apathy in the hobby is rife and yesterday proved it, a serious threat to the hobby was averted, just at a cost to the fbh of 15K!!!!!!!!!! , how many turned up to be heard, to congratulate, to celebrate the hobby. 150?
> 
> Things have got to change if there is going to even be a hobby to change. I hope the show today goes without issue, and that moving forward the hobby can find some sort of unity if only to stop it from self combustion.
> 
> regards chaz


I was also there and got very annoyed by the petty argument that started at the end!! ... We have already started to act on some of the suggestions put forward. Tony is going to finalise the document he screened for us and will hopefully be able to use this as a base for future discussions. We have started gathering a list of e'mail addresses today of people interested in staying informed of the thoughts on our 'Strategic Direction' and hopefully, committee and members from various organisations will start to give this some serious thought.



charlesthompson said:


> You should be a member, and you and you. These organisations have hardly got a pot to piss in. To molbilise, organise inform and make change resources have to change, how do you think they fund these excursions to court with pixie dust?
> 
> Everyone on here should be a member of fbh or ihs if the hobby is to survive.
> 
> (of course i know you dont think its fairy dust but opefully my point stands)


I wholeheartedly agree with this... All well established, older organisations who have earned their wings need to consider how we can attract more members, and as part of the membership committment how we can further support the FBH. :2thumb:

Personally, I feel we should each be members of both the FBH and one of the Societies. :whistling2:

People truly do need to start to consider joining one of the more respected of societies as we could well find ourselves going back to the situation we were in a few years ago if we are not careful.

THE DIVIDE AND CONQUER ISSUE IS A VERY REAL ONE!! _If we all put our money where our mouths are, then the societies would have sufficient funds to carry on this fight!!_ *It does cost a lot of money! : victory:*


----------



## PhillyDee

Janine00 said:


> THE DIVIDE AND CONQUER ISSUE IS A VERY REAL ONE!! _If we all put our money where our mouths are, then the societies would have sufficient funds to carry on this fight!!_ *It does cost a lot of money! : victory:*


I heard! If you saw the glasses I was selling, then I still have a few left. I collected a total of £75 by selling these glasses toward the IHS/FBH today (how should this be distributed??) also, I would help where I can, so add me to a mailing list. I do not mind being contacted!


----------



## wretchedprocess

Forgive me if this has been posted elsewhere-- I've been at Doncaster for the last two days, and not on the forums!

The ruling was merely an issue of breach of contract. Unfortunately, this does not mean that the APA cannot put pressure on us in the future-- there is more fighting to do. As I understand it, and this from the debate on Saturday, the venue was more than reasonable, and always entirely happy to have the show go on. The pressure was brought to bear by the Council, who were responding to the threats in a pretty reactionary, and obviously illegal, way. The contract for the show in September was also upheld, but as to next year, I don't think anyone knows yet.

BUT. This has definitely galvanized the reptile community, and we should absolutely use the momentum we've got going right now. We do have to fight the Stupid, and, yes, we DO have to do it together. I actually left for the bar when the sniping started at the end of the debate, because I'm new to this country, and I don't have a horse in this race. The only thing I'm interested in is digging the hobby out of this hole that it seems to be in. I joined IHS, donated to FBH. It's been said often enough that everyone else should do the same-- it's not going to make that much more difference if I say it again.

It's still true.


----------



## MCEE

wretchedprocess said:


> Forgive me if this has been posted elsewhere-- I've been at Doncaster for the last two days, and not on the forums!
> 
> The ruling was merely an issue of breach of contract. Unfortunately, this does not mean that the APA cannot put pressure on us in the future-- there is more fighting to do. As I understand it, and this from the debate on Saturday, the venue was more than reasonable, and always entirely happy to have the show go on. The pressure was brought to bear by the Council, who were responding to the threats in a pretty reactionary, and obviously illegal, way. The contract for the show in September was also upheld, but as to next year, I don't think anyone knows yet.
> 
> BUT. This has definitely galvanized the reptile community, and we should absolutely use the momentum we've got going right now. We do have to fight the Stupid, and, yes, we DO have to do it together. I actually left for the bar when the sniping started at the end of the debate, because I'm new to this country, and I don't have a horse in this race. The only thing I'm interested in is digging the hobby out of this hole that it seems to be in. I joined IHS, donated to FBH. It's been said often enough that everyone else should do the same-- it's not going to make that much more difference if I say it again.
> 
> It's still true.


Indeed, it is the councils who are the ones who have no backbone. More often than not venues (council and non council owned) are happy to stage meetings like this.
However, if it were me, I would now have a tendancy to steer clear of booking venues of which the councils are linked and have some say who can or cannot hold an event therein. In the light of the Doncaster situation, booking private or corporate venues would remove any council interferrence on that level.
If a council wanted to stop an event taking place in privately or corporately owned facilities, and the venue did not bow down to their requests to cancel, they would have to take legal enforcement action against the venue through the courts. The council would then have to prove the event was illegal (for whatever reason). In this scenario I doubt they would be able to gather enough evidence (if any at all) to pove it was illegal, especially in a short space of time.
The only way round this would be for individual councils to create by-laws and such to ban these club/breeders meetings where surplus herp offspring are sold. At present the current law only prohibits businesses selling animals in a street or public place. However, any by-law can only be created through council debate/public consultation and would need to be justified.
To me, the law as it stands is quite cut and dry. The people selling livestock at these meetings are not businesses and the venues in which they sell are not public places. They are events put on by clubs and organisations. Even though members of the public are invited to attend (after paying their entrance fee) it is not deemed a public place. Trouble is, council officials sometimes have a hard time comprehending this and maybe more effort needs to be made by the herp societies, organisations and clubs to eductate these councils as to the law, rather than wait until a court hearing ensues. Forewarned is forarmed.

As far as the Doncaster incident is concerned, it was, indeed, a <cough> simple </cough> "breach of contract" hearing and it was able to take place under emergency measures.

Goodness me, is that the time. :eek4:


----------



## Cleggs

??? So apa are a charity who fund a company.....its that even legal


----------



## Brian J

Umm.......


----------



## Brian J

MCEE said:


> For a start not everyone uses FB or agrees with their ethics (I know many who will not use it) and not everyone who keeps herps is a member of the forums. So why should either of these be catalysts of organised activities for the hobby.
> 
> 
> Forums such as this are, indeed, a good way of communicatiog news from the battlefront of campaigners v hobbyists but it does not mean the FBH or IHS et al are contract bound to use them. If these forums and FB disappeared tomorrow it does not mean the organisations will cease the work they do.
> 
> The whole point point of these forum is to communicate ideas, knowledge and, yes, bicker if we so wish. Even families bicker, so what? It does not mean we do not have a common interest. And that is the difference between us hobbyist and organisations like the APA.
> Us hobbyists are not afraid to speak our minds, good or bad, air our dirty washing, disagree, bicker and have open debate. We do this because we have open forums as a tool to do this. Something the APA do not have. They only publish, discuss and wallow in propaganda that they believe favours their position in order to subdue their gullable followers. This is not an open, honest, and organised group of people, it is likened to a dictatorship.
> 
> I know which camp in I would rather exist.


I never once said everyone used fb or the forums and I never said they had to but I stand by what I said they could indeed use these tools to help them gain members and donations. and keep a large section of the hobby informed, and to be honest it's no people in the hobby we need to keep informed we know what tools the apa are it's the general public that needs informing and as most of the world uses facebook that's a good place to start no ????


----------



## Sephiroth

Cleggs said:


> ??? So apa are a charity who fund a company.....its that even legal


No, apa are limited company who own a charity with a very similar name. I doubt the charity does anything at all.


----------



## Malc

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for backing the IHS and FBH and praise Chris for following through the breach of contract by taking the trust / council to court. However if I read the statement correctly, they didn't pursue the award for costs against the council, yet generous folk here are dipping into their own pockets to help raise funds. 

Whilst this might seem like a nice gesture of good will between Chris and the council, I bet it won't have any bearing when it comes to trying to book future meetings at the dome. I'm no expert, but taking this through crown court and having a ruling made by a crown court judge can not be cheap... and IMO this should be looked upon as a commercial enterprise and those awarded cost recovered to help fund the fight against APA closing down other future meetings / shows.

One other thing that this ruling might do is set a president in that any other society who has a written contract to hold a similar meeting can now sight this case should they find themselves in the same predicament.


----------



## Mynki

The award was not made against the council. But against the trust who opetate the dome. The trust wanted the event to take place.


----------



## MCEE

Malc said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm all for backing the IHS and FBH and praise Chris for following through the breach of contract by taking the trust / council to court. However if I read the statement correctly, they didn't pursue the award for costs against the council, yet generous folk here are dipping into their own pockets to help raise funds.
> 
> Whilst this might seem like a nice gesture of good will between Chris and the council, I bet it won't have any bearing when it comes to trying to book future meetings at the dome. I'm no expert, but taking this through crown court and having a ruling made by a crown court judge can not be cheap... and IMO this should be looked upon as a commercial enterprise and those awarded cost recovered to help fund the fight against APA closing down other future meetings / shows.


I am a little concerned that no attempt is being made to retrieve the costs awarded. We have to ask why? Donations were made in good faith and to allow the losing party get away without paying up is a little suspicious, especially if these costs ran into thousands. Surely, if the FBH are continuously after donations why are they willing to throw away money owed to them? Grateful as we all are that there are organisation fighting the cause on behalf of the hobby, I think it is a little bit neglegent not to claw back the funds on behalf of those who donated them in the first place.



> One other thing that this ruling might do is set a president in that any other society who has a written contract to hold a similar meeting can now sight this case should they find themselves in the same predicament.


It was a cut and dry "breach of contract" hearing. There was no president because "contract laws" exist making breaches of contract illegal. Anyone can fall back on the "contract laws".


----------



## MCEE

Mynki said:


> The award was not made against the council. But against the trust who opetate the dome. The trust wanted the event to take place.


It does not matter if the trust wanted the event to take place. They were the ones who breached the contract (hands tied or not) and forced the hearing. Therfore, it is they who have to pay the costs awarded against them.


----------



## Mynki

You need to check hard facts. The FBH has decided not to pursue the trust for the costs.


----------



## Big_Rich

Mynki said:


> You need to check hard facts. The FBH has decided not to pursue the trust for the costs.


Yes, (from memory) this was done as a gesture because it would help with relations beween the FBH and the dome for future shows and also the fact that they were being forced by the council to cancell the event.


----------



## colinm

MCEE said:


> It does not matter if the trust wanted the event to take place. They were the ones who breached the contract (hands tied or not) and forced the hearing. Therfore, it is they who have to pay the costs awarded against them.


What would that achieve?Get their backs up so that they wont allow another show?Sometimes it is better to stand back and think of the longterm future than immediate gain.


----------



## Janine00

colinm said:


> What would that achieve?Get their backs up so that they wont allow another show?Sometimes it is better to stand back and think of the longterm future than immediate gain.


I like to think (and in fact I'm sure I KNOW) that there are others out there that have trod this path before me and have actually made some of the mistakes that now give us others the room to learn by example and not by always have to do it ourselves.

I applaude the FBH AND the IHS for their (very generous) jesture in deciding not to press for cost. There are people out there (thankfully) that are way ahead of some of us keyboard warriors in strategic thinking and understanding what is likely at the end of the day be far more beneficial than looking at the short term cost in respect of hard cash. :notworthy:


----------



## wretchedprocess

Yes, the decision not to pursue costs was in part because it really wasn't fair to screw the venue, who did want us there and were not the ones who tried to drive us out-- that was the council. In light of that, Chris thought (and I agree) that the best way to handle it was to show that we are responsible, and not petty and reactionary, and will not try to indiscriminately screw over anyone who irritates us even as the result of someone else's bad behavior. Though he put it more eloquently than I did. One thing I learned this weekend is that Chris is *very very good* at figuring out what is best for the reptile community politically. I definitely trust him on this one.

I mean. He got the show to even HAPPEN in the face of some pretty underhanded tactics on the part of the APA and the council. He knows what he's doing.


----------



## Big_Rich

At the end of the day these guys are fighting for our hobby so personally I think we should learn to trust their judgement.


----------



## MCEE

colinm said:


> What would that achieve?Get their backs up so that they wont allow another show?Sometimes it is better to stand back and think of the longterm future than immediate gain.



What is to stop the council telling the dome "you are not to take anymore bookings where live animals are for sale, ever again"?


----------



## Big_Rich

MCEE said:


> What is to stop the council telling the dome "you are not to take anymore bookings where live animals are for sale, ever again"?


I guess nothing, but at least this way the dome operators my try to argue the fact.


----------



## truncheon1973

MCEE said:


> What is to stop the council telling the dome "you are not to take anymore bookings where live animals are for sale, ever again"?


well maybe they have a contract for a few years rather than every show :whistling2:


----------



## madaboutreptiles

MCEE said:


> What is to stop the council telling the dome "you are not to take anymore bookings where live animals are for sale, ever again"?


To be honest unless the show is "illegal" I dont think they can and as long as the show dosent break any laws?

Just my view : victory:


----------



## truncheon1973

madaboutreptiles said:


> To be honest unless the show is "illegal" I dont think they can and as long as the show dosent break any laws?
> 
> Just my view : victory:


if the dome is independant to the council then they cant but if its council owned then they can

if its independant they would have to prove something is wrong/illegal etc to force them to stop shows there


----------



## Mynki

They are contracted for the IHS show in september only.


----------



## Janine00

madaboutreptiles said:


> To be honest unless the show is "illegal" I dont think they can and as long as the show dosent break any laws?
> 
> Just my view : victory:


To be fair, there will be much learning taken place over the weekend by many people and organisations, including Doncaster Council.

They do not have to let us run shows there in future, except the ones that we already have contracts for. This may be why the West Midlands Branch IHS show in November may not be able to hold it's show there as we did last year. We are already sounding out other similar venues that will hopefully be suitable for most of you to come to that attended last November if you wish, if it is the case that we cannot or do not use The Dome.

Whichever way, you can be certain I will keep you up to speed whenever I have concrete answers that I am able to give, and my committee's permission for me to post this on the forums. : victory:


----------



## Mynki

Q


truncheon1973 said:


> if the dome is independant to the council then they cant but if its council owned then they can
> 
> if its independant they would have to prove something is wrong/illegal etc to force them to stop shows there


You should all have gone to the FBH conference on saturday where all of this was explained in detail. I keep seeing a lot of factual inacuaracies. The new FBH communications bod has much to do!


----------



## truncheon1973

Mynki said:


> Q
> 
> You should all have gone to the FBH conference on saturday where all of this was explained in detail. I keep seeing a lot of factual inacuaracies. The new FBH communications bod has much to do!


exactly what have i said that is innacurate?


----------



## MCEE

Mynki said:


> Q
> 
> You should all have gone to the FBH conference on saturday where all of this was explained in detail. I keep seeing a lot of factual inacuaracies. The new FBH communications bod has much to do!



Everyone SHOULD have gone but not everyone was ABLE to go. You could help those who couldn't go by briefly explaining what "factual inacuaricies" you are seeing. No need for a communications bod to do that. You can do it, on here, now.


----------



## madaboutreptiles

Mynki said:


> Q
> 
> You should all have gone to the FBH conference on saturday where all of this was explained in detail. I keep seeing a lot of factual inacuaracies. The new FBH communications bod has much to do!


I would have gone if it were possible but I am in Africa at the moment and that's too far even for a dedicated hobbist like me :2thumb:


----------



## wretchedprocess

MCEE said:


> What is to stop the council telling the dome "you are not to take anymore bookings where live animals are for sale, ever again"?


Probably nothing. But that doesn't mean we should punish people who are not at fault, does it?


----------



## MCEE

wretchedprocess said:


> Probably nothing. But that doesn't mean we should punish people who are not at fault, does it?


But it works like this.

The venue breaches contract because the council forced it's hand to do so. The venue is taken to court, loses and has to pay costs. The venue feels hard done by and pursues the council for losses, should it feel that the council did "make" them breach said contract.

This will also have the effect that the council is made to suffer for their hand in the cancellation and serve as a lesson (not quite a president) to other councils in the same position that they cannot act on a whim.


----------



## Mynki

MCEE said:


> But it works like this.
> 
> The venue breaches contract because the council forced it's hand to do so. The venue is taken to court, loses and has to pay costs. The venue feels hard done by and pursues the council for losses, should it feel that the council did "make" them breach said contract.
> 
> This will also have the effect that the council is made to suffer for their hand in the cancellation and serve as a lesson (not quite a president) to other councils in the same position that they cannot act on a whim.


In that case can you explain what clause in what contract you have seen between the trust and the council you have seen which will allow them to do that.

Or are you just guessing that they might be able to? Something i. Very much doubt personally.


----------



## colinm

MCEE said:


> But it works like this.
> 
> The venue breaches contract because the council forced it's hand to do so. The venue is taken to court, loses and has to pay costs. The venue feels hard done by and pursues the council for losses, should it feel that the council did "make" them breach said contract.
> 
> This will also have the effect that the council is made to suffer for their hand in the cancellation and serve as a lesson (not quite a president) to other councils in the same position that they cannot act on a whim.


Does it matter ,better people than you or I have made this decision.
It was all explained on Saturday,why try to make arguments now ?Its done and dusted.There are far more concerning issues within the hobby.

I thought the same as you at first but others have explained why and that seems good to me.


----------



## Meko

madaboutreptiles said:


> I would have gone if it were possible but I am in Africa at the moment and that's too far even for a dedicated hobbist like me :2thumb:



I thought you'd just called yourself a dedicated hobbit :blush:


----------



## madaboutreptiles

Meko said:


> I thought you'd just called yourself a dedicated hobbit :blush:


Well I am quite short with Hairy feet :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## vetdebbie

I'd really rather not think about your feet...


:flrt:


----------



## MCEE

Mynki said:


> In that case can you explain what clause in what contract you have seen between the trust and the council you have seen which will allow them to do that.
> 
> Or are you just guessing that they might be able to? Something i. Very much doubt personally.



No idea, I was merely generalising how things would be done under "normal" circumstances in response to "...that doesn't mean we should punish people who are not at fault". Which in itself is generalising.


----------



## MCEE

colinm said:


> Does it matter ,better people than you or I have made this decision.
> It was all explained on Saturday,why try to make arguments now ?Its done and dusted.There are far more concerning issues within the hobby.


I agree. However, I was merely generalising.


----------



## Mynki

madaboutreptiles said:


> I would have gone if it were possible but I am in Africa at the moment and that's too far even for a dedicated hobbist like me :2thumb:


You actualy raise an interesting and valid point here. It is 2012 after all, there is no reason why future FBH conferences could not be screened over the web using video conferencing technology. This is an increasingly popular medium and the FBH could exploit it.

Suitable people could connect and watch the conference from home. Additionally, some of the talks could also be recorded and played on youtube. Companies worldwide are employing this technology to reach out and get their message across, so why not the FBH? 

Again, their communications bod has much to do! :lol2:


----------



## madaboutreptiles

Mynki said:


> You actualy raise an interesting and valid point here. It is 2012 after all, there is no reason why future FBH conferences could not be screened over the web using video conferencing technology. This is an increasingly popular medium and the FBH could exploit it.
> 
> Suitable people could connect and watch the conference from home. Additionally, some of the talks could also be recorded and played on youtube. Companies worldwide are employing this technology to reach out and get their message across, so why not the FBH?
> 
> Again, their communications bod has much to do! :lol2:


That is actually a very good idea, we do it all the time at work and it works very well.

:no1:


----------



## chris25

madaboutreptiles said:


> To be honest unless the show is "illegal" I dont think they can and as long as the show dosent break any laws?
> 
> Just my view : victory:


any venue has a right to book whatever they want providing any relevant laws are met for the venue/event.
if the dome didnt want to let the ihs book for any futrure shows outside of the current contract it wouldnt have to,even if theres nothing 'illegal'.
if the council decide they no longer want to run the risk of future hassles or issues then they would be within their rights to pressure the dome trustee's into not taking future ihs bookings.
thats why everyones behaviour,both traders and visitors needed to be as faultless as possible

as i heard it they have a contract for the next show in september but even that could be cancelled if the officials on sunday decided that there was sufficent rule/law breaking at the show.
without seeing an official statement from the inspectors(as yet,and hopefully they will publish one) ive read that they were more than happy with sundays proceedings


----------



## mikeyb

i beginning to think that shows need to start looking at back up venues and cancellation terms in there contract that means if this happens again within the cancellation time frame they can just move it to a different venue shame it cant be done outside really as i know loads of farmers with huge fields and some huge marquees that would happily shoot the apa on site due to the fox hunting ban and the never ending loss of there livestock due to it its just unfortunate that this kind of thing wouldnt work like that. we have something down here called the royal cornwall show were u can buy pigs,cows,chickens,ducks, etc if u wanted too so why dont the apa go after them too im lost


----------



## wretchedprocess

From what I am told, our Official Animal Rights Liason found nothing amiss with the show. I doubt we'll hear anything unpleasant from the venue either. I'm pretty sure everything went well!


----------



## Brian J

Could the shows not be done online, on a dedicated forum so all sales are complete before the actual day so the show it's self will be for dry goods, live food and collection of animals previously purchased. That way if a venue says no sales of animals on the day that won't be a problem ???


----------



## chris25

wretchedprocess said:


> From what I am told, our Official Animal Rights Liason found nothing amiss with the show. I doubt we'll hear anything unpleasant from the venue either. I'm pretty sure everything went well!


as ive posted elsewhere lets hope/request a full and frank written report for the fbh and ihs is available to have in their ammunition store and to post on the internet to counter the APA'S claims


----------



## chris25

Brian J said:


> Could the shows not be done online, on a dedicated forum so all sales are complete before the actual day so the show it's self will be for dry goods, live food and collection of animals previously purchased. That way if a venue says no sales of animals on the day that won't be a problem ???


nothing will replace the 'seeing in the flesh' aspect of a breeders meet...plus we already have that now,the classifieds...on many forums

the APA use the selling of reptiles as a small part of their campaign...in the long run it would make no differance if livestock was sold or not at a meeting.they would still object :devil:


----------



## Brian J

chris25 said:


> nothing will replace the 'seeing in the flesh' aspect of a breeders meet...plus we already have that now,the classifieds...on many forums
> 
> the APA use the selling of reptiles as a small part of their campaign...in the long run it would make no differance if livestock was sold or not at a meeting.they would still object :devil:


Oh I know all that but if it got to the point where shows just can't get a venue with our agreeing to no sales then this could be possible.


----------



## Mynki

Brian J said:


> Oh I know all that but if it got to the point where shows just can't get a venue with our agreeing to no sales then this could be possible.


It's better to fight our corner than give in and roll over so easily.


----------



## wretchedprocess

Mynki said:


> It's better to fight our corner than give in and roll over so easily.


Exactly. Remember everyone who said last week that it was over, and we should just give up on Doncaster this year and forever? The fat lady, as they say, has not yet sung. I personally intend to try to get her out of opera entirely and into crocheting or something before she manages.


----------



## Vectis

I hope everyone had a good time at the show. I've seen lots of threads introducing new additions, but i havent managed to find the show results. Does anyone who where i can find them? Who won Best in Show? (or whatever the reptile equivalent is!)


----------



## geckograham

Vectis said:


> I hope everyone had a good time at the show. I've seen lots of threads introducing new additions, but i havent managed to find the show results. Does anyone who where i can find them? Who won Best in Show? (or whatever the reptile equivalent is!)


What the heck are you talking about?


----------



## Tarron

Vectis said:


> I hope everyone had a good time at the show. I've seen lots of threads introducing new additions, but i havent managed to find the show results. Does anyone who where i can find them? Who won Best in Show? (or whatever the reptile equivalent is!)


It not that kind of show mate.

They're actually called breeders meetings, and are a place where breeders go to sell their young herp or animals no longer needed.
They are brilliant places to see new and unusual species, and sometimes grab a bargain.


----------



## Mynki

Vectis said:


> I hope everyone had a good time at the show. I've seen lots of threads introducing new additions, but i havent managed to find the show results. Does anyone who where i can find them? Who won Best in Show? (or whatever the reptile equivalent is!)


Reptile shows are not like fish or dog shows where animals are judged on quality. There is no competitive element.

However, at the FBH conference on saturday, Chris Newman did briefly discuss the possibility of this happening one day!


----------



## Vectis

Thanks for clarifying everyone 




geckograham said:


> What the heck are you talking about?


I assumed it would be like other UK animal fancies. Sorry for misunderstanding.


----------



## johnc79

mikeyb said:


> i beginning to think that shows need to start looking at back up venues and cancellation terms in there contract that means if this happens again within the cancellation time frame they can just move it to a different venue shame it cant be done outside really as i know loads of farmers with huge fields and some huge marquees that would happily shoot the apa on site due to the fox hunting ban and the never ending loss of there livestock due to it its just unfortunate that this kind of thing wouldnt work like that. we have something down here called the royal cornwall show were u can buy pigs,cows,chickens,ducks, etc if u wanted too so why dont the apa go after them too im lost


Don't take this the wrong way, but could you use a few more ,,,, ..... Its hard to read your posts. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LiamRatSnake

Mynki said:


> Reptile shows are not like fish or dog shows where animals are judged on quality. There is no competitive element.
> 
> However, at the FBH conference on saturday, Chris Newman did briefly discuss the possibility of this happening one day!


I certainly think there should be but unlike poultry ect there is no breed type as snakes don't differ from the 'standard' - except maybe locales. So it's just going to be 'prettiest', 'biggest', 'rarest' ect.
Plus it's going to be tricky when the best in show's been sold.


----------



## BenjaminBoaz

Mynki said:


> Reptile shows are not like fish or dog shows where animals are judged on quality. There is no competitive element.
> 
> However, at the FBH conference on saturday, Chris Newman did briefly discuss the possibility of this happening one day!


boring 

thats just great, some one telling us one persons snake is better than another. :bash:


----------



## Natrix

animalstory said:


> boring
> 
> thats just great, some one telling us one persons snake is better than another. :bash:


Does that mean your afraid your snakes wouldn't win?:lol2:

For those of us with better quality snakes it could be a bit of fun. :no1:

Natrix


----------



## geckograham

Natrix said:


> Does that mean your afraid your snakes wouldn't win?:lol2:
> 
> For those of us with better quality snakes it could be a bit of fun. :no1:
> 
> Natrix


MMMMMMEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOWWWWWW!!!!

Put your claws away!

:lol2:


----------



## Meko

That'd be a rubbish show. If I go to a reptile show I want it to be like a bird show, I want to see snakes pushing a wheel barrow, or a leopard gecko riding a bike across a bit of wire 4ft off the floor.


----------



## Brian J

Mynki said:


> Reptile shows are not like fish or dog shows where animals are judged on quality. There is no competitive element.
> 
> However, at the FBH conference on saturday, Chris Newman did briefly discuss the possibility of this happening one day!


The bts have comps at there shows, best photo, best brachy and so on so why not


----------



## LahmiaRaven

Natrix said:


> Does that mean your afraid your snakes wouldn't win?:lol2:
> 
> For those of us with better quality snakes it could be a bit of fun. :no1:
> 
> Natrix


Why should he be worried, I got two new baby boas from him and they're TOP quality! :2thumb:


----------



## Anu

My lizard would get "biggest muscles in show" in the Bearded Dragon category. He trains like 2+ hours a day climbing the stairs.

I actually saw someone on their Facebook, who was actually a part of their cause have their comment deleted for stating and questioning why animals were still sold at the show. :lol2: They seemingly don't want their sheep knowing about their failure.


----------



## PeanutButterJellyTime

Phew 78 pages read completely..... took me a good few hours to read from page one to here.
Glad it was won. Had a look on the APA fb page and made me giggle... more for the fact I pitty them.
Unfortunatly I was unable to attend the meet, hopefully the next one I may be able to get to (need to start pestering OH to start driving lessons :2thumb


----------



## BenjaminBoaz

Sorry but I've no interest in entering any of my snakes into a competition nor do I care to really look at any entries. Comes across as very childish. Who's going to judge and what they going to judge on? All a bit naff in my eyes. Just because one person likes a snake more than another doesn't mean it's a better snake either. They did this at the north east show and the judges were a pet shop owner and a private keeper, I couldn't give a boot what they thought. Personally taking reptiles to a comp just for the sake of it is a bit unfair on them compaire to taking animals to sell.


----------



## Brian J

animalstory said:


> Sorry but I've no interest in entering any of my snakes into a competition nor do I care to really look at any entries. Comes across as very childish. Who's going to judge and what they going to judge on? All a bit naff in my eyes. Just because one person likes a snake more than another doesn't mean it's a better snake either. They did this at the north east show and the judges were a pet shop owner and a private keeper, I couldn't give a boot what they thought. Personally taking reptiles to a comp just for the sake of it is a bit unfair on them compaire to taking animals to sell.


It's called a bit of fun!! And with spiders at the bts they are judged from photos as far as I know, they have cat, dog, horse and Many other animal shows/comps so why not snakes?? It's just a bit of fun ffs some times snake peeps are a miserable buch of :censor:


----------



## BenjaminBoaz

Brian J said:


> It's called a bit of fun!! And with spiders at the bts they are judged from photos as far as I know, they have cat, dog, horse and Many other animal shows/comps so why not snakes?? It's just a bit of fun ffs some times snake peeps are a miserable buch of :censor:


Take you ffs and censor words and your photos and silly comp to your local rep group meeting, come on IHS dont lower the quality and stoop so low. :bash:


so with the BTS using photos of spiders - are they actually judging by the spider or the photo?


----------



## Poxicator

The BTS don't judge the spiders by the photos. Members are encouraged to bring along their tarantula/scorpions for show and split into the groups, eg. New World Terrestrial, Asian Arboreal etc. They are then judged and the winner gets a plaque and a certificate. Its not meant in any seriousness, its merely an opportunity for those who wish to show their exotics off whilst in their prime condition. Surely celebrating that is in-offensive!


----------



## geckograham

I wouldn't be taking animals to a show just for a competition but if I had a table and someone wanted to come and judge my "stock" then I wouldn't see a problem. It would be a bit of a laugh and something for people to stick around for. It can be hard to talk to people properly while the crowd is trying to get around the tables so a little prize giving would enhance the social element of breeders meetings.

Besides, I'm sure the sponsors could donate some nice little prizes... :whistling2:


----------



## Brian J

Poxicator said:


> The BTS don't judge the spiders by the photos. Members are encouraged to bring along their tarantula/scorpions for show and split into the groups, eg. New World Terrestrial, Asian Arboreal etc. They are then judged and the winner gets a plaque and a certificate. Its not meant in any seriousness, its merely an opportunity for those who wish to show their exotics off whilst in their prime condition. Surely celebrating that is in-offensive!


I wasn't 100% sure on that because I've never really looked, but its just a bit of fun I can't see the problem. Like I said some snake peeps are just miserable :censor: :lol2:


----------



## Poxicator

You've probably confused it a little. 
They do have a photograph competition and artwork too, but the main point is live tarantula. Sometimes Ive seen these and thought mine look better than that, other times Ive taken mine and realised Im not going to win. But that's not really the point, its a show for everyone to get involved in by whichever means they wish and this merely celebrates what people have achieved.


----------



## kain

On the comments they made about stressed conditions etc.. I have first hand seen shipments of reptiles coming into the UK from america and those in transit from Ghana to america. The ones I saw the animals were amazing condition and very healthy even the chameleons from Africa, not a single DOA.


----------



## MCEE

geckograham said:


> I wouldn't be taking animals to a show just for a competition but if I had a table and someone wanted to come and judge my "stock" then I wouldn't see a problem. It would be a bit of a laugh and something for people to stick around for. It can be hard to talk to people properly while the crowd is trying to get around the tables so a little prize giving would enhance the social element of breeders meetings.
> 
> Besides, I'm sure the sponsors could donate some nice little prizes... :whistling2:


I think animal "beauty shows" are, indeed, a little tacky. However, a little prize giving for breeders/table holders on the day may be a good idea. Best table display, for example, could see table holders display animals in more natural way rather than travel containers (not that there is anything wrong in these containers) or adorn their table with decor to match the natural environment of their animals etc. Maybe, most helpful breeder or perhaps best newcomer... well, maybe not but you get my drift.
Categories could be voted for by the customers/visitors on the day and the prizes given near the end of the day. Just a bit of fun, of course, but could encourage breeders to go above and beyond the good practices they already follow at these events.


----------



## PhillyDee

MCEE said:


> I think animal "beauty shows" are, indeed, a little tacky. However, a little prize giving for breeders/table holders on the day may be a good idea. Best table display, for example, could see table holders display animals in more natural way rather than travel containers (not that there is anything wrong in these containers) or adorn their table with decor to match the natural environment of their animals etc. Maybe, most helpful breeder or perhaps best newcomer... well, maybe not but you get my drift.
> Categories could be voted for by the customers/visitors on the day and the prizes given near the end of the day. Just a bit of fun, of course, but could encourage breeders to go above and beyond the good practices they already follow at these events.


THAT is a good idea. Like you say, best display, most natural display etc. You could even stick a "you get your table refunded" as a prize.


----------



## andybe18

mispentyouth said:


> Even if the show gets cancelled i think we should all attend anyway .* If a few big issue sellers with dogs on string can stop the show* im sure a few thousand reptile keepers standing up for there hobby can at the very least show them we wont back down .


 Perhaps somebody needs to educate themselves on the homeless cause and the animal rights cause and stop being ignorant and offensive.


----------



## ukmorphs

we think that a full audit of all funds should be published, it is a well known fact that all membership fees are being used to fund jollys to different locations for chris newman and other members. we propose that a meeting be arranged where all views can be heard, Hobbyists are being ignored for the buisnesses as thay are the ones that bring in more revenue for the likes of chris newman, lets have a shake up. we will be willing to do the job for half the cost.


----------



## wretchedprocess

ukmorphs said:


> we think that a full audit of all funds should be published, it is a well known fact that all membership fees are being used to fund jollys to different locations for chris newman and other members. we propose that a meeting be arranged where all views can be heard, Hobbyists are being ignored for the buisnesses as thay are the ones that bring in more revenue for the likes of chris newman, lets have a shake up. we will be willing to do the job for half the cost.


Half the price and what percentage of the results? You see, you _can't_ "do the job". Chris has spent years and years building up contacts, learning the ins and outs of the relevant legislation, and fighting for the hobby. Whoever your "we" may be, I sincerely doubt that they have that kind of experience, or, frankly, dedication. Because if you did, you would be fighting for us yourself rather than trying for no apparent reason to take down the organization which is the greatest asset the hobby has. Start your own group. Impress us that way. Maybe then you'll get followers.

Among whom, exactly, are these "jollys" you speak of well-known? And if "all membership fees" are going to fund them, doesn't that indicate that the £15000 that the court case in July cost us were paid out-of-pocket? And isn't it nice that Chris would do that for us?

If you could, as you say, "do the job", I think Chris would be more than happy to let you, or at least let you help. He's been doing this, almost alone, for years. If you think you can do a better job, I challenge you to do it. Otherwise, be quiet and let those who bother with more than inflammatory, divisive rhetoric get back to business.


----------



## Dave Balls

wretchedprocess said:


> £15000 that the court case in July cost us were paid out-of-pocket? And isn't it nice that Chris would do that for us?
> 
> .


Didnt 'we' fund that via pretty much everyone from here donating? 

It raises an interesting point though, how much does the IHS donate to the FBH from the money that the shows bring in?


----------



## Brian J

ukmorphs said:


> we think that a full audit of all funds should be published, it is a well known fact that all membership fees are being used to fund jollys to different locations for chris newman and other members. we propose that a meeting be arranged where all views can be heard, Hobbyists are being ignored for the buisnesses as thay are the ones that bring in more revenue for the likes of chris newman, lets have a shake up. we will be willing to do the job for half the cost.


Who is this "we" you talk about mate, because all I see is you accusing others of underhanded dealings with out any proof. 

You obviously have a problem with this organisation and Chris especially, have you got reason and proof for this or just trying to make a name for you self on the back of chrise's hard work.

Personally if you where to be the one helping this hobby I would be running a mile away from it, coming in here to accuse chris and the IHS like that is so unprofessional and not something I would be involved in.


----------



## Blake1990

ukmorphs said:


> we think that a full audit of all funds should be published, it is a well known fact that all membership fees are being used to fund jollys to different locations for chris newman and other members. we propose that a meeting be arranged where all views can be heard, Hobbyists are being ignored for the buisnesses as thay are the ones that bring in more revenue for the likes of chris newman, lets have a shake up. we will be willing to do the job for half the cost.


Easily the stupidest post I've seen on RFUK since I've been a member


----------



## Chris Newman

ukmorphs said:


> we think that a full audit of all funds should be published, it is a well known fact that all membership fees are being used to fund jollys to different locations for chris newman and other members. we propose that a meeting be arranged where all views can be heard, Hobbyists are being ignored for the buisnesses as thay are the ones that bring in more revenue for the likes of chris newman, lets have a shake up. we will be willing to do the job for half the cost.


The allegation that you have made that I, and unspecified others, misappropriate funds from the IHS or FBH by going on “jollys”is a very serious allegation, and not one that I am prepare to let go by unchallenged. Either post your evidence here to support this allegation, so everyone can see it, or retract it! DO NOT ignore this post!


----------



## Tarron

I hope you realise the seriousness of the allegation, I'm sure it's an accusation of embezzlement or something similar.

I'm sure we would all like to see this evidence!
It goes without saying Chris, we are all behind you and the others on this one.


----------



## madaboutreptiles

ukmorphs said:


> we think that a full audit of all funds should be published, it is a well known fact that all membership fees are being used to fund jollys to different locations for chris newman and other members. we propose that a meeting be arranged where all views can be heard, Hobbyists are being ignored for the buisnesses as thay are the ones that bring in more revenue for the likes of chris newman, lets have a shake up. we will be willing to do the job for half the cost.


I think you should edit your post as I for one to do wish to be claased in this "WE" business

Thank you


----------



## Row'n'Bud

nice to see some of steven's friends at least have the balls to post over here...knew he wasn't alone in this rebellion of attention seekers


----------



## penfold

was just wondering were the gRUDGE was


----------



## Tarron

Row'n'Bud said:


> nice to see some of steven's friends at least have the balls to post over here...knew he wasn't alone in this rebellion of attention seekers


My very first thought aswell.

I wonder if this is the papa sleeper cell waking lol


----------



## Chris Newman

Chris Newman said:


> The allegation that you have made that I, and unspecified others, misappropriate funds from the IHS or FBH by going on “jollys”is a very serious allegation, and not one that I am prepare to let go by unchallenged. Either post your evidence here to support this allegation, so everyone can see it, or retract it! DO NOT ignore this post!


Some twenty four or so hours have elapsed and you have not responded - this is not a matter that is simply going to go away by being ignored. You have made a very serious and actionable allegation, kindly present your evidence to support this for the world to see, or if you are unable to do so then have the courtesy to withdraw your allegation before this matter is taken further. Please do not ignore this!


----------



## alecwood

Row'n'Bud said:


> nice to see some of steven's friends at least have the balls to post over here...knew he wasn't alone in this rebellion of attention seekers


Is all discontent to be quashed?


----------



## Tarron

alecwood said:


> Is all discontent to be quashed?


Not at all, everyone is allowed an opinion but when people are spouting such strong and damning allegations as fraud and deception, evidence of it is to be provided. The fact this person hasn't even come back to say 'sorry' or 'here's the evidence . . . . . ' or even 'I have the evidence, bring it on' speaks volumes about the person.

Not only that, but Chris happens to be one of the most well respected and hard working individuals in the hobby (of course, we shouldn't forget the amazing team behind him) so when allegations of this magnitude come out, many in the hobby will stick by him and want physical proof of any wrong doing before even contemplating turning on him.

It does seem there are a few individuals with an axe to grind regarding Chris, for whatever reason, and they are scrubbing together at this particular moment to argue and aggravate the community.

Ukmorphs, if you have any decency you will respond on this thread. However you respond is up to you, but one post of allegations is not enough to substantiate your claims.


----------



## ukmorphs

Hello i can see that this is rolling on at a pace. All this was happening without my knowledge........I had to change my password this monring to even gain access to my account.....it is my belief that my account has been hacked in an attempt to smear both mine and chris name......I have made multiple pms, to moderators....asking them to check when the password was changed ovbiously before this morning and if indeed the isp address was logged.....Ive have pmed chris on here as well as privately......ive also rang him, to explain the situation but sadly to no avail as yet.

Looking at my post i havent got an edit option. I would gladly remove as i never said it, any suggestions please contact me immediately.......

would just like to say sorry if this has offended anyone, i can fully understand why BUT as ive stated I DID NOT and WOULD NOT write that post on a public forum. Chris knows me well enough that generally if i have something to say i will say it to him as he does to me.

Regards Paul


----------



## stevenrudge

wretchedprocess said:


> Exactly. Remember everyone who said last week that it was over, and we should just give up on Doncaster this year and forever? The fat lady, as they say, has not yet sung. I personally intend to try to get her out of opera entirely and into crocheting or something before she manages.


That is a really stupid reply,nobodys wants any of OUR (SHOWS)to go lest of all Donny,all l've every said is lets make sure our show are LEGAL,thats all and if their not we adjust them and make them legal.Stop all this &*$^* around with the Law,example trying is get them classified as ANIMAL SHOWS,but no animal is ever SHOWN,instead we go to the shows and what do we see an animal MARKET! which surprise surprise is ilegal.!
l've only just seen this post again,and because of whats go on on this forum and C/B and privately l've come to an agreement with curtain people that l will not at the moment be posting any anti FBH or attaching Mr Newman himself or any of his posts.l'm responding to the convo l've seen on this post about shows.
lets stop the bullshit and start being honest with ourselves.
lets stop calling our trying to classify our events as animal shows when their nothing of the sort.
lets get our heads around the FACT off what we ALL really want (and should be still able to have)is an open market to sell our animals to whoever we want
problem is this is illegal.
Now l have personally taken a lot of stick and slagging off,for trying to point this out and people have and do accuse me of being involved with an AR group or at the very lest aiding them.
l do nether, l did not make the legislation,we have what we have whether we like or agree with it or not,is not the point its their and we have to deal legally with it.
l have looked closely with this on all the forums and l always new that people would not like or understand the main issue with this and just revert to an us v the Ar's,or SR is just a trouble maker,l'm just pointing out where we really stand.change is coming whether we like it our not,but lets get the best we can and stay within the Law because if we do not its US that will lose out and it will be OUR fault nobody else


----------



## geckograham

Now they are at the racecourse instead of the Dome, the meetings are private functions held on private property and only members are allowed in. It's all legal and we are free to trade our reptiles there.


----------



## stevenrudge

geckograham said:


> Now they are at the racecourse instead of the Dome, the meetings are private functions held on private property and only members are allowed in. It's all legal and we are free to trade our reptiles there.


So is it legal for hobbyist to make money on a secondary income or are you all trade?if its trade thats fine and legal,but you can only selling to other traders not the public,if its hobbyist selling to the public then that ilegal.you see again people are trying to get round the Law,its just not good enough.
And are you now saying that selling in the Dome was ilegal?or are you just going back to the race course because they are the only ones that will stage this show?


----------



## Austin Allegro

geckograham said:


> Now they are at the racecourse instead of the Dome, the meetings are private functions held on private property and only members are allowed in. It's all legal and we are free to trade our reptiles there.


Private function means private person paying out for the privelige of the premises gets to say who gets in and who does not which can be club members and Joe public if the IHS so wish. This is no different from how it was at the Dome. As to who can sell animals I would imagine the IHS will follow exactly the same criteria they have applied to date.


----------



## Blake1990

stevenrudge said:


> So is it legal for hobbyist to make money on a secondary income or are you all trade?if its trade thats fine and legal,but you can only selling to other traders not the public,if its hobbyist selling to the public then that ilegal.you see again people are trying to get round the Law,its just not good enough


Since when did Hobbyists make money?! Please let me in on this little secret as i seem to be spending ££££'s building, maintaining and housing my collection, i don't think any amount of hatchlings is realistically going to compensate me for this, and if by some sort of miracle they did, the money would go straight back into caring for them :devil:


----------



## stevenrudge

geckograham said:


> Now they are at the racecourse instead of the Dome, the meetings are private functions held on private property and only members are allowed in. It's all legal and we are free to trade our reptiles there.


Also please could you define what you mean then you say (private function)and members only because the last IHS Donny show had an intake of between 2500-4000 enter on the day,now if l rememberer correctly the IHS current membership is about 700-800,so could anybody please explain the difference in numbers to me please


----------



## Austin Allegro

stevenrudge said:


> Also please could you define what you mean then you say (private function)and members only because the last IHS Donny show had an intake of between 2500-4000 enter on the day,now if l rememberer correctly the IHS current membership is about 700-800,so could anybody please explain the difference in numbers to me please


I have just had a look at the IHS Donny November booking form and nowhere on it does it say it is a private function. Who exactly was it who blurted out that the Donny show/s was a private function?

However, also just had look at the PRAS flyer handed out at Kempton and that does say private breeders meeting which I am assuming is a bit of a mis-use of terms as fee paying Joe Public are allowed in.


----------



## geckograham

stevenrudge said:


> Also please could you define what you mean then you say (private function)and members only because the last IHS Donny show had an intake of between 2500-4000 enter on the day,now if l rememberer correctly the IHS current membership is about 700-800,so could anybody please explain the difference in numbers to me please


It is a private function because that's what it is! A private venue, hired by a private organisation to host a PRIVATE FUNCTION!

The venue is NOT a public place, this is what made shows at the Dome legal and it will make shows at the racecourse legal too. The difference being that the local authority has no investment and therefore no say over what events can be hosted there.

I think you know full well that everyone admitted into the show is either a full or associate member of the IHS and when you are trying to use numbers to make a point, do try to be more accurate than "2500-4000". That just makes it look like you are plucking figures from thin air.


----------



## colinm

I do question these points to debate on here.Its better to contact the F.B.H. directly with any reservations that you have.


----------



## Row'n'Bud

Here we go washing our dirty laundry in public again....hope all AR onlookers enjoy giggling at our frillies as they're laid out in front of them one by one :bash:


----------



## Pete Q

colinm said:


> I do question these points to debate on here.Its better to contact the F.B.H. directly with any reservations that you have.


This everyone this, or even better contact the people who are running the show, the reptile club, *support your reptile clubs. *


----------



## geckograham

Is this a forum or not? This is a place for discussion, not a place where we are told what to say and what not to say!

I'm more concerned with who has allegedly hacked ukmorph's account to be honest...


----------



## alecwood

stevenrudge said:


> So is it legal for hobbyist to make money on a secondary income or are you all trade?if its trade thats fine and legal,but you can only selling to other traders not the public,if its hobbyist selling to the public then that ilegal.you see again people are trying to get round the Law,its just not good enough.


Firstly, secondary income is perfectly legal, but the law says it should be declared for tax, just as ALL income should be.

It's also perfectly legal for a hobbyist to sell something to a member of the public, why would it not be? The law recognises (not just in the sphere of animals etc) that there is a world of difference between private sales and persons carrying on a business, and that world of difference is scale.

Therefore, it should be perfectly legal for hobbyists to dispose of surplus stock at such an event without licensing as long as those hobbyists are not "carrying on a business" in that activity. Where they are a business in that activity, it becomes a matter of how public is the event.

Public, in the meaning of place, would be one to which the public had unfettered access - which is why the police can call Tesco car park a public highway and tell you off for doing handbrake turns there. So, if there is control on who can and cannot access the venue, then the venue is not public. If you sell tickets on the door though, then, IMHO, it is, if it's advance sales only, then it clearly is not since a random member of the public could not gain access "at will"


----------



## Austin Allegro

geckograham said:


> It is a private function because that's what it is! A private venue, hired by a private organisation to host a PRIVATE FUNCTION!
> 
> The venue is NOT a public place, this is what made shows at the Dome legal and it will make shows at the racecourse legal too. The difference being that the local authority has no investment and therefore no say over what events can be hosted there.
> 
> I think you know full well that everyone admitted into the show is either a full or associate member of the IHS and when you are trying to use numbers to make a point, do try to be more accurate than "2500-4000". That just makes it look like you are plucking figures from thin air.


Sorry but you have fllumuxed me and you don't seem to be making sense. But more importantly your point is irrelevant.


----------



## alecwood

Row'n'Bud said:


> Here we go washing our dirty laundry in public again....hope all AR onlookers enjoy giggling at our frillies as they're laid out in front of them one by one


Do you really think that there's a venue for discussion that they have NOT yet infiltrated, or would you just prefer there be no debate or discussion at all?

There are many APA members who are members of clubs, and who are members of the IHS. This is not a group of rank amateurs we're dealing with, it's a well organised machine with 50+ years of experience behind it, a great deal of which has been very successful indeed.

Our biggest weakness in dealing with the AR lobby is our complacency, our failure to recognise our enemy's strength and prepare ourselves accordingly


----------



## Pete Q

geckograham said:


> Is this a forum or not? This is a place for discussion, not a place where we are told what to say and what not to say!
> 
> I'm more concerned with who has allegedly hacked ukmorph's account to be honest...


It is a place for discussion and opinons differ, my opinion is if we have questions about the shows we should contact the people who run them.

I'm not sure it's possible to hack an account or who would want to, it wouldnt stop anyone from posting, you could just get another one, only the mods could tell us if it's possible but I could be wrong, seems unlikely.


----------



## Row'n'Bud

.....in a public domain where they can sit back and smile while internally we self combust due to petty bickering and pocket legal experts....fine, carry on regadless:2thumb:


----------



## alecwood

Pete Q said:


> I'm not sure it's possible to hack an account


It's possible, quite easy really.

The real question is who, why etc


----------



## geckograham

Pete Q said:


> It is a place for discussion and opinons differ, my opinion is if we have questions about the shows we should contact the people who run them.
> 
> I'm not sure it's possible to hack an account or who would want to, it wouldnt stop anyone from posting, you could just get another one, only the mods could tell us if it's possible but I could be wrong, seems unlikely.


I refer you to the post made by ukmorphs on page 80.


----------



## charlesthompson

Pete Q said:


> It is a place for discussion and opinons differ, my opinion is if we have questions about the shows we should contact the people who run them.
> 
> I'm not sure it's possible to hack an account or who would want to, it wouldnt stop anyone from posting, you could just get another one, only the mods could tell us if it's possible but I could be wrong, seems unlikely.


However unlikely it may be it has happened, and hopefully the moderators indeed will be forthcoming with information about password changes and the email accounts used. Obviously the sooner Paul can get to the bottom of this the better. Contact has now been made with Chris, eventually. So hopefully this can all be resolved in a less public manner. Chris has known Paul for 20+ years and knows full well that if Paul has something to say to him, me, you anyone hes gonna say it. This is not Pauls style at all, he is very up front and is obviously dismayed that this has happened. More importantly he is livid that someone would do this. 

Its a shame it took so long for Paul to realise what was going on but hes not on here that often anymore. Considering the parties concerned have got Pauls phone number all this could have been cleaned up almost immediately. A real opportunity lost im afraid, most frustrating.

chaz


----------



## geckograham

Austin Allegro said:


> Sorry but you have fllumuxed me and you don't seem to be making sense. But more importantly your point is irrelevant.


What exactly do you find confusing? I've checked and my post is DEFINATELY in English.

More importantly, how can you say my point is irrelevant when you can't appear to grasp what my point is?


----------



## Austin Allegro

Row'n'Bud said:


> Here we go washing our dirty laundry in public again....hope all AR onlookers enjoy giggling at our frillies as they're laid out in front of them one by one :bash:


 Open and forthright discussion should applauded. It is what makes things progress. The alternative is secret and partially privileged paranoid societies; a bit like Syria and the classical Soviet bloc and the APA. Of course the APA won't wash there dirty laundry in public to reveal their off shore bank acounts, their affilaition to the BNP, it's peadofile members, and its plans to send out letter bombs to pet keepers. Them that keep secrets usually have a lot to hide.


----------



## stevenrudge

*reply*

Tell you what l'm keep my big mouth shut until the FBH /IHS see privately what l'm talking about.if any of my points turn out to be valid everybody will see some changes.if they can prove my points are not valid things will stay the same and l'll shut up for good about it.
But if they are valid and they do nothing then they cannot argue if they then become public can they?
like l've said l've tried before and was given the bums rush
l'll try again and we shall see
ps some of you guys really should be more careful with your internet presence you give yourselves away far to careless


----------



## alecwood

Since I see both of the usual organised support groups/factions have arrived, can I please make the point to each that I am entirely unaffiliated with either side, in fact, until a little web searching this morning I didn't realise I'd inadvertently stepped into a long standing factional dispute.

I really don't want either of you groups stalking me and ripping me to bits any time I dare make any kind of post like you do so well to each other


----------



## geckograham

stevenrudge said:


> Tell you what l'm keep my big mouth shut until the FBH /IHS see privately what l'm talking about.if any of my points turn out to be valid everybody will see some changes.if they can prove my points are not valid things will stay the same and l'll shut up for good about it.
> But if they are valid and they do nothing then they cannot argue if they then become public can they?
> like l've said l've tried before and was given the bums rush
> l'll try again and we shall see
> ps some of you guys really should be more careful with your internet presence you give yourselves away far to careless


I have nothing to 'give away' or hide. What are you going on about?


----------



## MCEE

Row'n'Bud said:


> .....in a public domain where they can sit back and smile while internally we self combust due to petty bickering and pocket legal experts....fine, carry on regadless:2thumb:


Nobody is going to "self combust". You are being a little melodromatic to say the least. If you want to disassociate yourself with the open debates in an open forum then feel free to either ignore them. Your posts, recently, seem to achieve nothing to enhance the debate in hand. By expressing discontent towards those who actually do have opinions to share, you are displaying the sort of behaviour that you are complaining about. Therefore, would it not be better to add constructive comment to a debate rather than bemoan those that do?


----------



## stevenrudge

geckograham said:


> I have nothing to 'give away' or hide. What are you going on about?


l'm not talking about you geckograham,why so paranoid?l'm saying in general


----------



## MCEE

stevenrudge said:


> Tell you what l'm keep my big mouth shut until the FBH /IHS see privately what l'm talking about.if any of my points turn out to be valid everybody will see some changes.if they can prove my points are not valid things will stay the same and l'll shut up for good about it.
> But if they are valid and they do nothing then they cannot argue if they then become public can they?
> like l've said l've tried before and was given the bums rush
> l'll try again and we shall see
> ps some of you guys really should be more careful with your internet presence you give yourselves away far to careless


It really does not matter what your opinions are. There will always be a handful of people, both sides of the fence, which will never allow you to get away with an opposing opinion without flying of the handle. Some people just do not respect opinion other than their own and this can sometimes resort to personal verbal attack. However, this is normally because they are generally not articulate enough counter argue and shouting someone down is a lot easier for them.


----------



## stevenrudge

alecwood said:


> Firstly, secondary income is perfectly legal, but the law says it should be declared for tax, just as ALL income should be.
> 
> It's also perfectly legal for a hobbyist to sell something to a member of the public, why would it not be? The law recognises (not just in the sphere of animals etc) that there is a world of difference between private sales and persons carrying on a business, and that world of difference is scale.
> 
> Therefore, it should be perfectly legal for hobbyists to dispose of surplus stock at such an event without licensing as long as those hobbyists are not "carrying on a business" in that activity. Where they are a business in that activity, it becomes a matter of how public is the event.
> 
> Public, in the meaning of place, would be one to which the public had unfettered access - which is why the police can call Tesco car park a public highway and tell you off for doing handbrake turns there. So, if there is control on who can and cannot access the venue, then the venue is not public. If you sell tickets on the door though, then, IMHO, it is, if it's advance sales only, then it clearly is not since a random member of the public could not gain access "at will"


Err See Chris Newmans post on animal fairs/markets/ the Law is clear and you are wrong


----------



## geckograham

stevenrudge said:


> l'm not talking about you geckograham,why so paranoid?l'm saying in general


Ooohhhh right.... Nope. Still doesn't make sense. Stop talking in riddles and say what you mean!


----------



## Blake1990

stevenrudge said:


> Tell you what l'm keep my big mouth shut until the FBH /IHS see privately what l'm talking about.if any of my points turn out to be valid everybody will see some changes.if they can prove my points are not valid things will stay the same and l'll shut up for good about it.
> But if they are valid and they do nothing then they cannot argue if they then become public can they?
> like l've said l've tried before and was given the bums rush
> l'll try again and we shall see
> ps some of you guys really should be more careful with your internet presence you give yourselves away far to careless


I really am struggling to see your point Steven, both on here and CB you seem to be making out you are the messiah and that your going to change the hobby etc etc yet you seem to possess very little knowledge of the whole situation, i really don't mean for this to be an insult but you even seem to lack basic literacy skills? 

what exactly do you want from us? i know you would like us to all randomly stop supporting our reptile clubs but you haven't really put a case forward, pretty unrealistic to expect everybody to change everything their doing just because you have told them too...

From where i am standing you are coming across as either

- Very intelligent but extremely secretive, meaning i wouldn't trust you
- Very Naive and a bit of an attention seeker, again i wouldn't trust you

Do you even know exactly what you are trying to achieve?

Either way your presence on these forums isn't really doing you a great deal of good. Perhaps you should go away and put a presentation of your ideas together and present them with a bit of structure rather than randomly commenting on threads with negative comments about the FBH, that way instead of making yourself unpopular within the community we can judge you fairly and make an informed decision on weather to completely ignore you or to take your ideas into consideration.

At the end of the day you spend so much time trying to discredit the FBH but say you want to present your ideas directly to them, if they are are useless as you are making out surely you would be much better off demonstrating your opinion to the whole reptile keeping community, that is who really represents the hobby.


----------



## alecwood

OK, I'll be wrong then, please don't feel the need to tell me specifically which points and how, I was merely expressing an opinion which may not coincide with that of your learned friend. If you're looking for someone else to argue with look elsewhere

I thought you'd taken a vow of silence anyway




I was advised when I joined NEVER to post on here, advice I should have taken.


----------



## penfold

forum discusions /arguements are fair and good but then some people have to drop to the lowest leval of phisical threats


----------



## geckograham

penfold said:


> forum discusions /arguements are fair and good but then some people have to drop to the lowest leval of phisical threats


Who did that? Threats of violence are wholly out of order!


----------



## Row'n'Bud

MCEE said:


> It really does not matter what your opinions are. There will always be a handful of people, both sides of the fence, which will never allow you to get away with an opposing opinion without flying of the handle. Some people just do not respect opinion other than their own and this can sometimes resort to personal verbal attack. However, this is normally because they are generally not articulate enough counter argue and shouting someone down is a lot easier for them.


think you'll find that should read " not articulate enough TO counter argue "..if you think that being pedandtic helps to make you look oh so intelligent and not just an arguementative fool


----------



## MCEE

alecwood said:


> And, MCEE, since I didn't get the chance to answer the last time we met, no I am not an APA member and I am deeply offended that you labelled as such just for being new and having a low post count


Erm, I also called you defeatest. It had nothing to do with your low post count and I cannot find where I mentioned the amount of posts you had made. I also did NOT suggest you were an APA member but I made a tongue in cheek comment which suggested that your defeatest attitude was akin to an APA whistleblower.

I am sorry if you were offended but I commented on your post how I saw it.


----------



## Row'n'Bud

Once agin, for all those out there who know all being done is wrong and that they can do it all better, simple......

Set up your own organisation, wait around to build up support, hold your own events in 100% faith they are totally legal and safe from any AR interest and then come back to show all the clubs, societies already with sections on here how they were all so so wrong :2thumb:


----------



## MCEE

Row'n'Bud said:


> think you'll find that should " not articulate enough TO counter argue "..if you think that being pedandtic helps to make you look oh so intelligent and not just an arguementative fool


Since when has perfect typing been a prequesit to be able to argue a point? If your mind is not articulate enough to counter argue then being a good typist will hardly help. You really should try and understand what you read before you pass comment in reply.

Also, the last part of your comment goes to prove it is not I who is the argumentative fool.

[Enter stage left, yet another pointless comment....]


----------



## alecwood

MCEE said:


> I made a tongue in cheek comment which suggested that your defeatest attitude was akin to an APA whistleblower.
> 
> I am sorry if you were offended but I commented on your post how I saw it.


Ah, I'll unoffend myself then :lol2:


----------



## Row'n'Bud

It's in our celtic blood lol..........:Na_Na_Na_Na::2thumb:


----------



## Pete Q

stevenrudge said:


> Tell you what l'm keep my big mouth shut until the FBH /IHS see privately what l'm talking about.if any of my points turn out to be valid everybody will see some changes.if they can prove my points are not valid things will stay the same and l'll shut up for good about it.
> But if they are valid and they do nothing then they cannot argue if they then become public can they?
> like l've said l've tried before and was given the bums rush
> l'll try again and we shall see
> ps some of you guys really should be more careful with your internet presence you give yourselves away far to careless


And thats what it seems to boil down to really, wanting to prove your right and the reptile clubs and hobby are wrong.

Wanting to openly debate something the APA would also like to question can be a risk, is it wise, don't give them anything.

Pluck out all the reasons you like, " this is a forum" or "we have nothing to hide" or "we should openly discuss" or "our opinions are different" or "I'll prove I'm right and your wrong" 

For you want your team to win ( the hobby in this case ) then respect the reptile clubs and talk to them offline seems the right way to go about things, unless it is a I'll prove I'm right and your all wrong ego trip.


----------



## Austin Allegro

Advancing what a said a bit back about applauding forthright views etc alongside this i must say that this thread is becoming a bit fragmented with a multitude of side issues and and a bit past its sell by date and probably now at a stage where the mods could euthaniase it.


----------



## Pete Q

Austin Allegro said:


> Advancing what a said a bit back about applauding forthright views etc alongside this i must say that this thread is becoming a bit fragmented with a multitude of side issues and and a bit past its sell by date and probably now at a stage where the mods could euthaniase it.


I agree. : victory:


----------



## Row'n'Bud

Ps....
"ps some of you guys really should be more careful with your internet presence you give yourselves away far to careless"


?????????????? steven............


----------



## Pete Q

penfold said:


> forum discusions /arguements are fair and good but then some people have to drop to the lowest leval of phisical threats


Hope that gets reported, it's the right thing to do.


----------



## Chris Newman

ukmorphs said:


> Hello i can see that this is rolling on at a pace. All this was happening without my knowledge........I had to change my password this monring to even gain access to my account.....it is my belief that my account has been hacked in an attempt to smear both mine and chris name......I have made multiple pms, to moderators....asking them to check when the password was changed ovbiously before this morning and if indeed the isp address was logged.....Ive have pmed chris on here as well as privately......ive also rang him, to explain the situation but sadly to no avail as yet.
> 
> Looking at my post i havent got an edit option. I would gladly remove as i never said it, any suggestions please contact me immediately.......
> 
> would just like to say sorry if this has offended anyone, i can fully understand why BUT as ive stated I DID NOT and WOULD NOT write that post on a public forum. Chris knows me well enough that generally if i have something to say i will say it to him as he does to me.
> 
> Regards Paul


As I said on the phone Paul I was not certain this was your username on the forum! I hoped my response would elicit a reply that would identify the culprit. Now we have got to the bottom off it, let’s hope that we can find the perpetrator. This has been an upsetting issue for both of us….

Regards,
Chris


----------



## Chris Newman

Pete Q said:


> Hope that gets reported, it's the right thing to do.


I second that and I would also urge reporting the matter to the police, I have done so in respect of the individual. Police do take such matters seriously.


----------



## ukmorphs

Cheers Chris,just dident want people pointing the finger,as a few already had.
Lets hope the ongoing investigations get some results for this sad person responsable for hacking my account.
Speak to u next week Chris,we have lots of things to chat about,and also some new ideas etc.
Once again thanks for your response in this matter.
Paul.


----------



## Pete Q

ukmorphs said:


> Cheers Chris,just dident want people pointing the finger,as a few already had.
> Lets hope the ongoing investigations get some results for this sad person responsable for hacking my account.
> Speak to u next week Chris,we have lots of things to chat about,and also some new ideas etc.
> Once again thanks for your response in this matter.
> Paul.


Dam, really sorry, I don't know you but this is well out of order.


----------



## ukmorphs

Thanks Pete,been a crap day.......just goes to show some people jumped in on me and should now i hope they learn not to judge untill the facts are out.


----------



## Tarron

ukmorphs said:


> Thanks Pete,been a crap day.......just goes to show some people jumped in on me and should now i hope they learn not to judge untill the facts are out.


I'd like to apologise to you if I made any comment that offended. I'm sure you can appreciate the reaction from myself and others, but if things are sorted between yourself and Chris then I retract my posts.

I hope the true perpetrator is uncovered and dealt with in the correct manner. It's really quite pathetic that someone would attack both of you in this way, it could certainly have done a massive amount of damage to both your careers.

I wish you all the best mate

Tarron


----------



## ukmorphs

Thanks Tarron,nice of you to say sorry,but yes me and Chris go back over 25 yrs and we both have done a lot for our hobby in more ways than one.Chris now knows this was not me and lets hope the hacker can be traced,as its already being looked into.
Anyway i shall be working with Chris over the months to come,and hopefully we will all see new and improved ways in supporting and protecting our hobby. Paul.


----------



## stevenrudge

Blake1990 said:


> I really am struggling to see your point Steven, both on here and CB you seem to be making out you are the messiah and that your going to change the hobby etc etc yet you seem to possess very little knowledge of the whole situation, i really don't mean for this to be an insult but you even seem to lack basic literacy skills?
> 
> what exactly do you want from us? i know you would like us to all randomly stop supporting our reptile clubs but you haven't really put a case forward, pretty unrealistic to expect everybody to change everything their doing just because you have told them too...
> 
> From where i am standing you are coming across as either
> 
> - Very intelligent but extremely secretive, meaning i wouldn't trust you
> - Very Naive and a bit of an attention seeker, again i wouldn't trust you
> 
> Do you even know exactly what you are trying to achieve?
> 
> Either way your presence on these forums isn't really doing you a great deal of good. Perhaps you should go away and put a presentation of your ideas together and present them with a bit of structure rather than randomly commenting on threads with negative comments about the FBH, that way instead of making yourself unpopular within the community we can judge you fairly and make an informed decision on weather to completely ignore you or to take your ideas into consideration.
> 
> At the end of the day you spend so much time trying to discredit the FBH but say you want to present your ideas directly to them, if they are are useless as you are making out surely you would be much better off demonstrating your opinion to the whole reptile keeping community, that is who really represents the hobby.


l would much rather do that, l really would like to put the argument up for all to see and judge.l have been asked by people who l respect not to do this for now.l have been asked to (do the right thing)and give others another chance.So l have, for now,just remember l tried to call someone out for this very conversation,they chose not to but asked that l go through their private channels,l'll do this again and then as l've said we shall see.
l now trust the people l'm talking to,again just remember where all this conversation has come from to were we are now,
At first l was a no-nothing AR person.a nobody and how dare l ask anything from anyone.and this was the PRIVATE reaction as well as the public.
As you can imagine l was not imprest,like wise when l tried to talk to the IHS with my concerns by email,what did they do?at our next meeting they sent someone to talk to me,who is a very old good friend of mine someone who l've always respected to tell me to stop coursing trouble,this was wrong and was embarrassing for both of us.still is.
believe me do really do not need this attention, l've got enough going on in my life l do not need or want it,but l've read all the posts and l do know the Law and l think that we as a hobby have made some mistakes and are continuing to do so at are OUR expense
So to now people want to talk (privately)and then will shall see


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## penfold

stevenrudge said:


> l would much rather do that, l really would like to put the argument up for all to see and judge.l have been asked by people who l respect not to do this for now.l have been asked to (do the right thing)and give others another chance.So l have, for now,just remember l tried to call someone out for this very conversation,they chose not to but asked that l go through their private channels,l'll do this again and then as l've said we shall see.
> l now trust the people l'm talking to,again just remember where all this conversation has come from to were we are now,
> At first l was a no-nothing AR person.a nobody and how dare l ask anything from anyone.and this was the PRIVATE reaction as well as the public.
> As you can imagine l was not imprest,like wise when l tried to talk to the IHS with my concerns by email,what did they do?at our next meeting they sent someone to talk to me,who is a very old good friend of mine someone who l've always respected to tell me to stop coursing trouble,this was wrong and was embarrassing for both of us.still is.
> believe me do really do not need this attention, l've got enough going on in my life l do not need or want it,but l've read all the posts and l do know the Law and l think that we as a hobby have made some mistakes and are continuing to do so at are OUR expense
> So to now people want to talk (privately)and then will shall see


 you also should know its ilegal to threaten people aswell then!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Pete Q

I was wondering if Stevens account has been hijacked ? maybe the real Steven hasn't been on the forum for a while and doesnt know whats been happening, would explain alot.:whistling2:


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## LiamRatSnake

stevenrudge said:


> l would much rather do that, l really would like to put the argument up for all to see and judge.l have been asked by people who l respect not to do this for now.l have been asked to (do the right thing)and give others another chance.So l have, for now,just remember l tried to call someone out for this very conversation,they chose not to but asked that l go through their private channels,l'll do this again and then as l've said we shall see.
> l now trust the people l'm talking to,again just remember where all this conversation has come from to were we are now,
> At first l was a no-nothing AR person.a nobody and how dare l ask anything from anyone.and this was the PRIVATE reaction as well as the public.
> As you can imagine l was not imprest,like wise when l tried to talk to the IHS with my concerns by email,what did they do?at our next meeting they sent someone to talk to me,who is a very old good friend of mine someone who l've always respected to tell me to stop coursing trouble,this was wrong and was embarrassing for both of us.still is.
> believe me do really do not need this attention, l've got enough going on in my life l do not need or want it,but l've read all the posts and l do know the Law and l think that we as a hobby have made some mistakes and are continuing to do so at are OUR expense
> So to now people want to talk (privately)and then will shall see


I don't think you're quite as important as you seem to think you are. To be honest everyone's sick of pathetic vendettas.


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