# Female Goliath turns male on post breeding shed



## Just Add Pete (Jul 22, 2009)

Hello everyone, 

I was wondering if anyone else has come across this... 

Earlier this year I bought a female Goliath from a member on here I'd consider a professional. 'She' was sold to me as a mature female & I have no reason to doubt 'she' was anything else.

I bred her with my male (Therphosa Blondi: breeding - YouTube) & all seemed to go swimmingly with all the usual behaviour I'd expect from each side without incident. 

'She' continued to put weight on, widened & deepend her burrow & then spun herself shut in what appeared to be preparation for creating an egg sac. Some months later she emerged to have a lengthy drink & returned to her burrow. Today I was disappointed to discover her on her back in pre-shed.

Well, the spider has finished now & is definitely a mature male with breeding hooks! To all intents & purposes, it appears this spider has changed sex!? Has ANYONE run into this before? I know it could just as easily be that the spider was male all along & despite careful sexing following what must have appeared to be a maturing shed it was never anything else. 

But then why would the breeding attempt go so 'succesfully'? Please, share your thoughts.

Just Add Pete


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## Jonb1982 (Feb 20, 2011)

Blondi mature males dont have hooks


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## Just Add Pete (Jul 22, 2009)

Apologies, I know male Blondi's don't have tibial spurs. I'm referring to the palpal bulbs & spines they use for the transfer of the spermatozoa during breeding.


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## Jonb1982 (Feb 20, 2011)

Well in that case you have been sold a male, simple as, mistakes happen


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## Just Add Pete (Jul 22, 2009)

In that case then, two male Goliaths mated without killing each other. Check the Youtube link. That's what puzzles me!


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## Jonb1982 (Feb 20, 2011)

Just Add Pete said:


> In that case then, two male Goliaths mated without killing each other. Check the Youtube link. That's what puzzles me!


yeah ive had a little watch, maybe they are gay?

Are you 100% sure its now a MM? Get some pics up if u can!


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## Just Add Pete (Jul 22, 2009)

Managed to get a few, you can see the spines on his palps just behind his fangs



















Definitely a male.


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## LiamAndKec (Jan 23, 2009)

Some spiders are gay, get over it!


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## Just Add Pete (Jul 22, 2009)

I know that has been documented in other animals but has anyone actually heard of or documented it happening amongst invertebrates? It still doesn't explain how a spider that was sexed as a mature female by skin (epiandrous fusillae etc.) could 'turn' post-breeding? Cases of animals spontaneously changing sex have been documented elsewhere in the animal kingdom, perhaps the same happens amongst invertebrates? 

These are the questoins I'm posing, just wondered if anyone had any literature on the subject...


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## Just Add Pete (Jul 22, 2009)

And yes, perhaps they are just gay spiders. Still, never heard of it before & thought it was worth sharing!


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## Jonb1982 (Feb 20, 2011)

Just Add Pete said:


> I know that has been documented in other animals but has anyone actually heard of or documented it happening amongst invertebrates? It still doesn't explain how a spider that was sexed as a mature female by skin (epiandrous fusillae etc.) could 'turn' post-breeding? Cases of animals spontaneously changing sex have been documented elsewhere in the animal kingdom, perhaps the same happens amongst invertebrates?
> 
> These are the questoins I'm posing, just wondered if anyone had any literature on the subject...


Who sexed it mate......? the previous owner? And did you see a pic of the moult?

Like I say mistakes happen but there are also people that will try take the piss selling males as females......


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## mattykyuss (Oct 12, 2009)

*re*

looks like a male blondi and a male stirmi ,contact the seller ,i bet buying a af blondi was not cheap ?


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

Was this one of those "Presumed female" spider sales? I've always found that unless you know the sex then it should be sold as "unsexed". 

Have you contacted the seller about this?


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## dragon's den (Oct 6, 2010)

It has been documented before, i forget where i saw it now, or how reliable the source is. A wild caught female of a species i can't remember produced an infertile eggsack and then matured male.


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## dragon's den (Oct 6, 2010)

I will do some digging, find the fella and hopefully get permission to stick some pics up, but like i said, it's just going on people's word, as is this case too unfortunately.
They are both Theraphosa stirmi by the way.


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## oliwilliams (Feb 23, 2010)

Just Add Pete said:


> I know that has been documented in other animals but has anyone actually heard of or documented it happening amongst invertebrates? It still doesn't explain how a spider that was sexed as a mature female by skin *(epiandrous fusillae* etc.) could 'turn' post-breeding? Cases of animals spontaneously changing sex have been documented elsewhere in the animal kingdom, perhaps the same happens amongst invertebrates?
> 
> These are the questoins I'm posing, just wondered if anyone had any literature on the subject...


 High-lighted red bit, What does this mean? only males have the marks externally between the book lungs that are used to guess at a sex. Only sure way is by looking at a shed skin.
Lets face it, its not a case of a spider changing sex its a male spider, always was a male spider always will be a male spider and you my friend have been had.


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## Veyron (Mar 29, 2011)

mattykyuss said:


> looks like a male blondi and a male stirmi ,contact the seller ,i bet buying a af blondi was not cheap ?


Both look like stirmi to me. Can't see clearly enough to bet my house on it, but that's what I'm going with.


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## dragon's den (Oct 6, 2010)

There has certainly been cases of gynandramorphs (half male, half female) split down the medial. 
This pic is a friend of mine's from a few years ago, Poecilotheria ornata.
http://thereptilereport.com/assets/arachno-19oct-poecilotheriaornatagynandromorph-Phalagorn.jpg
I know of a subfusca and Lampropelma sp 'borneo black' or nigerrimum (one of the 2) which are also gynandromorphs.
This case seems very odd as during mating it was exhibiting classic Theraphosa mating behaviour.
Gynandromorph being different to the 'hermaphrodite' in question. 
May be the case like stated above, just an odd specimen that was always male.


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## oliwilliams (Feb 23, 2010)

An immature male spider would allow a mature male to mate with him instead of fighting off a larger animal.
I once mated a mature male curly hair and a sub adult salmon pink male, they got on well and have since adopted a small african baboon spiderling.
True story


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

dragon's den said:


> It has been documented before, i forget where i saw it now, or how reliable the source is. A wild caught female of a species i can't remember produced an infertile eggsack and then matured male.


Please find where this has been documented.


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## dragon's den (Oct 6, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> Please find where this has been documented.


I'm pretty sure I will find who it was, however it's just their word though, humans often tell elaborate lies.


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## dragon's den (Oct 6, 2010)

Maybe a lot of females confirmed through spermathecae will mature male upon being sold, just to get the seller into trouble, it seems to happen often enough :whistling2:


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## dragon's den (Oct 6, 2010)

Just Add Pete said:


> Managed to get a few, you can see the spines on his palps just behind his fangs
> 
> image
> 
> ...


Another question,
How did it come about for the spider to be moulting on what appears to be a dinner plate?
I have found that the guy's name is Jakub Skowronek from Poland and the spider was Brachypelma albopilosum. 
I have messaged him and waiting for a reply.


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## Veyron (Mar 29, 2011)

dragon's den said:


> Another question,
> How did it come about for the spider to be moulting on what appears to be a dinner plate?


I was thinking that, but I didn't ask because the answer seems pretty obvious :devil:


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## dragon's den (Oct 6, 2010)

Here's the pic he sent me.


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## mrmini (Sep 12, 2011)

didnt read it all properly,my bad.interesting though Lee


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## Tarantulaguy01 (Mar 31, 2012)

Its a shemale :Na_Na_Na_Na::whistling2:


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

males mating with each other has been documented before, and will again I'm sure.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Must admit I was rather alarmed at the fact the moulting tarantula is on a plate, that was totally unnecessary and poses far more worrying questions than whether this is male or female.


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

I believe Wes Flower has just written an article on homosexuality in tarantulas.

I think it's highly likely that your "female" was a subadult male either erroneously or deliberately mis-sold as female, this happens quite often.


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## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

garlicpickle said:


> I believe Wes Flower has just written an article on homosexuality in tarantulas.
> 
> I think it's highly likely that your "female" was a subadult male either erroneously or deliberately mis-sold as female, this happens quite often.


He has, and he witnessed males "bumping uglies" with each other


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## Harbinger (Dec 20, 2008)




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## mrmini (Sep 12, 2011)

and one of those **** spiders that Wes documented was mine:whistling2:


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## stu_ (Oct 30, 2009)

oliwilliams said:


> I once mated a mature male curly hair and a sub adult salmon pink male, they got on well and have since adopted a small african baboon spiderling.
> True story



:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## Just Add Pete (Jul 22, 2009)

Hello again everybody, 

Thank you for the helpful responses. Was not aware an immature male may 'mate' with a mature male of the same species. I was also unaware spiders are subject to 'split' sex! I appreciate the info.

: )

I bought the spider from Terraxenesthis, I've no reason to doubt what he sold me he believed to be a mature female. He did advise just before sale 'she' had just shed but it was the shed previous to that in which it matured.

In regard to it being on a dinner plate, this is an embarresing story. We discovered the spider on its back in the morning, checking an hour later there had still not been even the slightest twitch & it appeared the legs were crumpled back under the carapace & stuck at such angles as to render it almost impossible to successfully shed out. After waiting some time more, I was concerned it may have died in shed. I carefully removed cork bark & dug the tunnel out a bit, still not even a twitch. I carefully removed the spider & put it on the plate, gently moving the legs out of the crumpled postion. After a short while the spider started twitching the tips of its legs & some time later began what transpired to be a perfect shed. 

I know you MUST NOT bother a spider shedding. I would not have done so unless I thought it was absolutely necessary; I initally thought the spider had passed during the night having been stuck for hours before I discovered it. I was very relieved when 'she' began to twitch & shed out perfectly following the getle move. 

Just Add Pete


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## dragon's den (Oct 6, 2010)

It is not uncommon for a spider that size to be on it's back 18+ hours before moulting.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Just Add Pete said:


> I know that has been documented in other animals but has anyone actually heard of or documented it happening amongst invertebrates? It still doesn't explain how a spider that was sexed as a mature female by skin (epiandrous fusillae etc.) could 'turn' post-breeding? Cases of animals spontaneously changing sex have been documented elsewhere in the animal kingdom, perhaps the same happens amongst invertebrates?
> 
> These are the questoins I'm posing, just wondered if anyone had any literature on the subject...


I think there is some material in the british arach soc bulletin, but you'd need to be a member to get access to the old online articles. 

I'd check the journal of arachnology too, it must have been documented in other spiders before. I'm sure I've seen something similar to this in the last 4 years or so turn up in the JoA.


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