# Moist hides



## Swindinian

Interested in who uses moist hides, for which species and what hide/husbandry you carry out on the hide.

I have offered moist hides for some spp.
BRBs
JCP
Corn snake
BRBs love them, including as a latrine.
Carpets don’t seem keen.
Jury’s out with the Corns.

Today was the first time I ever encountered my corn snake using it.
After she shed 🤷🏻‍♂️
And evidently once the sphagnum moss had dried out 🤦🏻😂😂😂🤣


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## Swindinian

This is Amber. A very endearing CB20 Tessera corn 😁


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## Swindinian

I also have a wonderfully entertaining rescue corn, called Noodle.
Had him since 2019, but age unknown. 
I regularly let him out of his viv to roam my son’s bedroom, especially whilst I do spot cleaning.
He took this opportunity to sneak into Amber’s viv for a good sniff around.
He became a bit of a sex pest during breeding season, constantly prowling around her viv, but is more chilled out again.


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## spigotbush

i have humid hides in both of mine. my corn does the same thing, shuns it when shedding but pokes his head in every now and then. the russian rat uses it a little more often but never in a shed, he always sits out in the open for that. to be fair though, the ruskie is not overly fussed on hides in general and only really uses them immediately after a feed or when its hot weather. 
i do use leaves in their vivs though, good fat red oak ones and a fair pile of them, and when i spray down into there they are both inclined to go and rustle about in them. i will always offer a humid hide so they have the choice but they use the leaf piles a lot more.


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## Swindinian

spigotbush said:


> i have humid hides in both of mine. my corn does the same thing, shuns it when shedding but pokes his head in every now and then. the russian rat uses it a little more often but never in a shed, he always sits out in the open for that. to be fair though, the ruskie is not overly fussed on hides in general and only really uses them immediately after a feed or when its hot weather.
> i do use leaves in their vivs though, good fat red oak ones and a fair pile of them, and when i spray down into there they are both inclined to go and rustle about in them. i will always offer a humid hide so they have the choice but they use the leaf piles a lot more.


Interesting. Can I ask what substrate you use?

Just for the corns, I am using beech bark chips (small), with some aspen mixed in, especially under hides for softer bedding. Considering changing the substrate once it’s used up, so open to better ideas. I love the idea of red oak leaves, and guessing the spray down releases all sorts of odours for the snakes to investigate?


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## Swindinian

I stopped using a moist hide for noodle as it went mouldy. The sphragnum moss is purportedly anti bacterial? But if it dies, I guess it’ll have no impedance and not on mould spores?


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## spigotbush

i'm using soil/sand. not bone dry, just touch dry so its not dusty and the surface can dry out without losing the moisture underneath. it doesnt carry high humidity but it works well for humidity variations under different bits of decor as it dries out at different rates. for the humid hides i mix some soil, and moss. dont know what moss, i got it from some bank by the canal and sterilised it. not really come up against much mould issues though, i let it dry out every so often if the general humidity is up and give it a shake up.








this is my corn snake viv. the leaf pile is on the left side with bark stuff. i have the leaves spread front to back on the left hand side with the humid hide (plant pot) buried under soil under the lower shelf. its 30" deep and the soil is deepest at the back so the left side has a humidity gradient. 
yeah the leaves do get a nice smell when damped down. i would guess thats what draws them in but they spend i while in there.


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## Swindinian

Yet again, only finding Amber in her moist hide once it’s dried out


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## Swindinian




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## Swindinian




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## Swindinian

Now back in her viv, she is checking her surroundings.

I have been feeding her just twice a month, which I guess is less than many corn snake owners for a yearling, but she seems healthy and inquisitive, and not overweight.
I haven’t seriously investigated brumating her, but acknowledge it is something to consider.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

I use moist hides in every single enclosure - even / especially for desert dwelling species.

I use cat litter trays, one for the base which is filled with coir and sphagnum moss and another upturned as the lid, with a hole cut out the top for access - I have no clue how to upload a picture but if you want to send me a FB message I can show you.

For me, keeping is all about providing options - although we may not witness them using the moist hide, they have access to it should they wish.


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## Elly66

Only have a moist hide in my RP viv. I've never used them in with Corns, just a big water bowl (ceramic dog bowl) and often seen corns curled up in them.


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## Swindinian

Found Amber (Tessera Corn) in her moist hide, again only once it had dried out 😁


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## Swindinian




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## AndrewG

In almost every enclosure. Especially with Trans Pecos rat snakes and Natrix sp. Use a hole saw to cut plastic boxes then fill with sphagnum moss.


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## Elly66

Never used then for my corns, they love a big bowl of water to slither through (I use ceramic dog bowls). 
I have a moist hide in with my Royal and it's well used.


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## Swindinian

Amber again using moist hide, but only after moss has dried out again 😁


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## Swindinian




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## Swindinian




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## Swindinian

And again 😁


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## ian14

Swindinian said:


> View attachment 356036
> 
> Now back in her viv, she is checking her surroundings.
> 
> I have been feeding her just twice a month, which I guess is less than many corn snake owners for a yearling, but she seems healthy and inquisitive, and not overweight.
> I haven’t seriously investigated brumating her, but acknowledge it is something to consider.


Is there a reason why you are feeding so little? She is very small for her age, which is no surprise given the lack of food. She certainly won't be overweight on the current feeding regime she is on!
When I was breeding corns, my adults were fed weekly, juveniles and subadults twice weekly.
If she was hatched in 2020, and I'm guessing around June or July, then she is 2 years old. I personally would strongly recommend increasing her food to weekly feeds. At her age, she should now be a good 3 to 4 feet and happily taking adult mice and day old chicks.


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## Swindinian

ian14 said:


> Is there a reason why you are feeding so little? She is very small for her age, which is no surprise given the lack of food. She certainly won't be overweight on the current feeding regime she is on!
> When I was breeding corns, my adults were fed weekly, juveniles and subadults twice weekly.
> If she was hatched in 2020, and I'm guessing around June or July, then she is 2 years old. I personally would strongly recommend increasing her food to weekly feeds. At her age, she should now be a good 3 to 4 feet and happily taking adult mice and day old chicks.


Hi Ian,

You raise a challenging point.

Your phrasing asserts that I am under feeding her and stunting her growth, potentially even being neglectful?

You reference a previous post; I have actually been feeding more frequently, but I am as yet unconvinced about any benefits to feeding twice weekly. 

On what basis did you decide what frequency of feeding was most normal/ natural or healthiest when you kept and bred corn snakes?

Do you draw from any natural history data when you reference feeding frequency for corn snakes, or soley from hobbyist breeders? I ask, because successful captive breeding may not reflect or correspond with natural history?

How long do your animals live - how old have your oldest snakes lived for (what species, what sex how long you had, what was the cause of death)?

Is there a benefit to her being 3-4 foot at 2 years? Will she live longer, be healthier…?

I may well have gone too far the other way, and where so, I may need to adjust my approaches, but I will be swayed more by solid reasoning and evidence.

My experiences with aquaculture, then theraphosids and also reptiles, is there is a massive excess in feeding frequencies and volumes, to the detriment of health. Pet animals often die prematurely.

I would also invite you to showcase some of your animals, and share your experiences, apart from your blessed canine, I don’t recall you contributing current or previous captives?

Andy


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## ian14

Swindinian said:


> Hi Ian,
> 
> You raise a challenging point.
> 
> Your phrasing asserts that I am under feeding her and stunting her growth, potentially even being neglectful?
> 
> You reference a previous post; I have actually been feeding more frequently, but I am as yet unconvinced about any benefits to feeding twice weekly.
> 
> On what basis did you decide what frequency of feeding was most normal/ natural or healthiest when you kept and bred corn snakes?
> 
> Do you draw from any natural history data when you reference feeding frequency for corn snakes, or soley from hobbyist breeders? I ask, because successful captive breeding may not reflect or correspond with natural history?
> 
> How long do your animals live - how old have your oldest snakes lived for (what species, what sex how long you had, what was the cause of death)?
> 
> Is there a benefit to her being 3-4 foot at 2 years? Will she live longer, be healthier…?
> 
> I may well have gone too far the other way, and where so, I may need to adjust my approaches, but I will be swayed more by solid reasoning and evidence.
> 
> My experiences with aquaculture, then theraphosids and also reptiles, is there is a massive excess in feeding frequencies and volumes, to the detriment of health. Pet animals often die prematurely.
> 
> I would also invite you to showcase some of your animals, and share your experiences, apart from your blessed canine, I don’t recall you contributing current or previous captives?
> 
> Andy


I'm not suggesting you are being neglectful at all, simply querying why a 2 year old corn is only fed twice a month.
I have kept and bred snakes for the last 33 years. I have bred numerous corn and western hognose snakes, along with Mexican hognoses (a UK first breeding and to the best of my knowledge one of the only, if not the only, breeding of this species), several clutches of barons racers, javelin sand boas (again a very rarely bred species in the UK), rough scaled sand boas, tartar sand boas, Aesculapian snakes, Diones rat snakes, and several litters of Amazon tree boas, chequered garters and Lake Zacapu garters. I have also kept rough green snakes, Argentine rainbow boas, yellow anacondas, twin spot rat snakes, a king rat snake, Cali kings, Florifa kings, Hogg Island boas, Saharan sand boas, leopard snakes, diadem snakes, four lined snakes, ladder snakes, grass/dice/viperine snakes, and I'm sure several others I've missed.
I have a degree in Applied Zoology and have had experience working with reptiles at London Zoo, Cotswold Wildlife Park and Jersey Wildlife Preservation Trust.
My oldest snake was a 28 year old corn snake who almost certainly died simply of old age.
Pet animals kept correctly should not be dying prematurely, in fact the complete opposite is usually the case, with captive animals far exceeding the life span of their wild relatives.
My assertion that a 2 year old corn should be fed more than twice a month is based on my experience and knowledge and is also the commonly accepted norm for feeding colubrids.
Larger, more sedentary species will happily have a very large meal very infrequently, but this isn't the case for smaller, more active species such as colubrids.


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## Swindinian

ian14 said:


> I'm not suggesting you are being neglectful at all, simply querying why a 2 year old corn is only fed twice a month.


If they do need feeding weekly or twice weekly for good health, then I would be by definition, neglectful.
It is something I have ruminated over.


> My assertion that a 2 year old corn should be fed more than twice a month is based on my experience and knowledge and is also the commonly accepted norm for feeding colubrids.


Is there evidence to draw from for such assumptions?

What if it turns out this frequency is neither natural nor best for health outcomes?



> My oldest snake was a 28 year old corn snake.


Sterling!
Far too often, I hear people raise up, breed a few times and pass on their animals, thereby never knowing or tracking how long the animals live for.



> Larger, more sedentary species will happily have a very large meal very infrequently, but this isn't the case for smaller, more active species such as colubrids.


I would say my most sedentary snakes are the jungle carpets (they come out and pose more than active foraging). The Antaresia and rainbow boas appear to be at least as active as the corns. I don’t have any evidence for their respective metabolisms or efficiency with nutrient uptake; perhaps Colubrids are less efficient, thus would then need more feeds more regularly?


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## ian14

> Is there evidence to draw from for such assumptions?
> 
> What if it turns out this frequency is neither natural nor best for health outcomes?


I'm really at a loss as to why you're arguing this point.
Any basic snake husbandry research will show that this is accepted best practice.

I think your problem is your background with theraposids, which is a bit of a paradox.
Commonly, it goes the other way round, with snake keepers branching out to tarantulas and thinking that their snake husbandry can be transposed to keeping theraposids.
I suspect this is the case but in reverse.
What works for a tarantula, does not work for a snake.

Ultimately, it's your snake, you keep it as you see fit.
But I respectfully suggest that a twice monthly feeding regime for a 2 year old corn snake is wrong.
And I would doubt very much that this would be disagreed by other snake keepers.
If your snake had been grown on and fed appropriately and was now at full size, as it would be normally, then a large meal every other week wouldn't be a bad thing.
But yours is definitely small for its age.
My experienced advice would be to start feeding more.
In any case, you have a very pretty corn.


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## spigotbush

i feed my corn once a week and vary the prey size. he will take anything from small mice to chicks/ex-breeder mice. i never feed during a shed cycle as its a natural break in feeding. i also brumate him and know that he will fast afterwards while hunting for a mate. i would say if i kept up my average schedule and upper end of prey size without brumation he would quickly become obese, if i fed less then brumation and fasting would have a negative effect on him. however with this pattern of feed and rest he is kept at a healthy size and weight. he is 4 years old, 755g and almost exactly 4ft (literally half an inch over), he is well proportioned, strong, active and switched on.
i agree with ian, once a week would be better. you dont have to power feed and you dont have to only offer the largest prey it can handle. i always mix up feeds so that roughly once a month there is a good sized feed and either a shed or a smaller feed. as i interpret it, that seems pretty natural to me and so far havent had any issue of obesity or weight loss.


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## Elly66

I've always fed my adult corns weekly and my oldest one, which we'd had since it was 8 weeks old, lived for 25yrs.


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## Swindinian

The other discussion topic seems to be a better place to continue this, but would just re emphasise my previous comment:

“I have actually been feeding more frequently (_than fortnightly_), but I am as yet unconvinced about any benefits to feeding *twice weekly*.”

Ian, I don’t think I attacked your husbandry approach. You were initially providing an example feeding frequency of twice a week for juveniles and sub adults, and maturation at 2 years. I was asking if you could back up reasoning behind this.
At no point did I say I was sticking to fortnightly feeding for my corn, and to hell with your experienced opinion. I was just looking for more explanation, evidence and reasoning.

However, you did talk down to me, and you did assert an intuitive leap on a premise over theraphosidae husbandry equating to snake keeping ’in my views’.
The analogies I was inferring was ectotherms. 
I have been keeping aquariums for way longer than either theraphosids or reptiles, and I see similar behaviours in these industries about over feeding.

I hope you can see my comments in a different light, and yes, Amber is a gorgeous animal, I agree 😁


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## John Hufton

Back on topic, my 2 cribos and my Cali love their humid hides. Plastic box with damp sphagnum moss, circular entrance hole cut in lid.


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