# Silkback Bearded Dragons THE THREAD



## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

Hi all - i was just wondering if any of you own, or know anyone who own a silkie. It is my understanding that they are rare, as there are only 1 or 2 per clutch of leatherback x leatherback.

Would also like to try and gather everyone in one place just to give an idea of how widespread these beauts are. Share care tips and the such - as these guys are a very cool specailist animal.

Even if you dont own one...whats your opinion on them?

Here is mine - Darwin


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

not sure if i like them to be honest.. they look a bit penisy, but cute.. i don't dislike them but they do look a bit strange; as though your tadger was going to a fancy dress party.


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## Rthompson (Feb 19, 2011)

Meko said:


> not sure if i like them to be honest.. they look a bit penisy, but cute.. i don't dislike them but they do look a bit strange; as though your tadger was going to a fancy dress party.


LOL!!!!

I like them, but they should have their own genus

A Lizard is described as any creature with overlapping scales that isn't a snake or a turtle/tortoise.. .these guys have no scales... thusly shouldn't be classed as a lizard


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

Rthompson said:


> LOL!!!!
> 
> I like them, but they should have their own genus
> 
> A Lizard is described as any creature with overlapping scales that isn't a snake or a turtle/tortoise.. .these guys have no scales... thusly shouldn't be classed as a lizard


Isnt a sloworm classed as a lizard? As well armadillos have overlapping scales, they aint no lizard!


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## tracy pearman (Mar 14, 2011)

Argh!! A naked beardie:gasp: Hes cute,but will take some getting used too:mf_dribble:


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## Rthompson (Feb 19, 2011)

There are exeptions to the rule, in that animals that have overlapping scales which aren't classed as lizards because their anatomy / evolution places them in another category.

A slow worms are classed as lizards as they have small overlapping scales, they were never classed as snakes.


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## CalE (Apr 24, 2010)

Thats Rad, how much was it he ? :2thumb:


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## kirky1980 (Apr 4, 2010)

i dont like them personaly they look like a shaved scrotum:gasp: but everyone has there tastes and some people like a shaved scrotum :lol2:


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Personally I dont like them, Make me think of a furless rat. I did laugh at the tadger in fancy dress though.

To me a beardie isnt a beardie if its not got spikes. I'll be avoiding beardies with leatherback genes to avoid breeding them.


OH just added here, bit like a lizard inside a coloured condom, nothing looks like its supposed to haha. have to agree sorry..


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## .:KayLee:. (Aug 23, 2008)

I dont have one, but Im curious about their skin. Does it not burn under the basking spot? It just looks so delicate.


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## Rthompson (Feb 19, 2011)

it's my understanding as younglings they need a great deal of care to keep healthy, as it compromises their hardiness, but temperature wise is still the same


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## CharleyG.13 (Jan 6, 2011)

nicnet said:


> To me a beardie isnt a beardie if its not got spikes.


I have to agree with this... But then, I'm not overly fond of Leatherbacks either... beardies are meant to be scaley.


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## Dean Cheetham (Jun 1, 2009)

.:KayLee:. said:


> I dont have one, but Im curious about their skin. Does it not burn under the basking spot? It just looks so delicate.


 
I was thinking this, it does looks like it has a burn on its right hind leg but could just be my eyes :lol2:


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

that'd depend if they have the same care requirements as a normal beardie. If they burn under the lights then they might not need it to be as hot.


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## Alon93 (Jul 5, 2010)

I think they just look wrong, IMO beardies look awesome mainly because of their beard and spikes.


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## celicababe1986 (May 3, 2011)

I have never seen one of these before, or even heard of them!!
Do they require the same care?


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

I don't really like them TBH, It's like they have all the good bits about beardies bred out of them. I like beardies scales and spikes. Also I hear they have problems shedding and breeding as there skin is so delicate they rip. Not my cup of tea but I'm sure some people love them.


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

nope sorry, not a fan... it still looks like it's been skinned... looks like 'two-face' in the batman film after his face melted...


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

other than a slightly higher humidity to help with their shedding, they dont require any extra care compared to a normal dragon.

their uglyness kinda gives them a cuteness (if that makes sense lol)

their lack of scales produce some simply stunning colours and their rarety adds to the appeal for me


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

I should mention however, they are what a mule is to a donkey and a horse. Due to the harsh nature of beardy mating, the skin can rip, meaning a male silkie x female leather is the only option. They make fantastic selective breeding tools and can inject colour into a bloodline, but a silkie x silkie cross (unless you made some sort of protective jacket, perhaps an altered ferret harness) would be inhumane.


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

DanielEM said:


> other than a slightly higher humidity to help with their shedding, they dont require any extra care compared to a normal dragon.


Do they not require lower UV %? Only asking as that's what I read somewhere.
Are there any shedding problems? Again only asking as I know a shop near me that has one that they rub baby oil on because of bad sheds.

Personally, I don't like or agree with Silkbacks. It's one thing to breed specifically for colour, but when the breeding changes an animal to this extent I wonder if we (collective we) have gone too far?


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## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

I'm a sucker for anything different and personally I love them. I saw he picture of your male a while back and instantly wanted one. I'm not in a position to care for one at the moment though.

What does worry me though is the amount of new keepers who are breeding coupled with the massive increase in leatherbacks. Somebody without an understanding of their genetics may breed their 2 leatherbacks and accidentally produce silkies without the knowledge for their care.


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## ..:: F1D0 ::.. (May 13, 2009)

Dont like them to be honest. Whilst they do look cute at times, i think it is wrong. To be honest, im not into this all morph thing. The only morph of beardie i do actually like are pie balds. 

It wont be long before you get translucent silkbacks and if it does ever get that far that is when i think "we" have over stepped the mark.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Rthompson said:


> LOL!!!!
> 
> I like them, but they should have their own genus
> 
> A Lizard is described as any creature with overlapping scales that isn't a snake or a turtle/tortoise.. .these guys have no scales... thusly shouldn't be classed as a lizard


I was of the understanding that a lizard was a member of the _Lepidosauria_ (yes, that does MEAN "scaled lizards" but then _Tyrannosaurus_ means "tyrant lizard" and they weren't lizards, nor was _Raphus cucullatus_* a "farting cuckoo" - it's a group-name, not an exclusive definition) that are neither Tuatara (sphenodonts - look like lizards, aren't them) nor snakes (note, snakes are also members of the Lepidosauria...)

Being of a mutation that removes their scales wouldn't suddenly make them an entirely new genus - they are the equivalent of a hairless rat. They're still genetically bearded dragons, they can still produce scaled offspring (albeit the reduced scalation of a Leatherback) ...

DanielEM: Does your silkie have any scales anywhere on him? I've seen some photos that seem to have scattered scales like jewels.

*Mauritius dodo


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

DanielEM said:


> other than a slightly higher humidity to help with their shedding, they dont require any extra care compared to a normal dragon.
> 
> their uglyness kinda gives them a cuteness (if that makes sense lol)
> 
> their lack of scales produce some simply stunning colours and their rarety adds to the appeal for me


this is not strictly true
you are so far out of the ball park your in fact on the moon

heat requirements are different
light [uv] is different
baby management is totally different
hygiene [skin] requirements is different

the only thing that's the same as a standard dragon is there feeding


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

DanielEM said:


> Hi all - i was just wondering if any of you own, or know anyone who own a silkie. It is my understanding that they are rare, as there are only 1 or 2 per clutch of leatherback x leatherback.
> 
> Would also like to try and gather everyone in one place just to give an idea of how widespread these beauts are. Share care tips and the such - as these guys are a very cool specailist animal.
> 
> ...


so you got darwin
hows his skin is it getting better
how are you finding him?????


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## Rthompson (Feb 19, 2011)

woodrott said:


> this is not strictly true
> you are so far out of the ball park your in fact on the moon
> 
> heat requirements are different
> ...


Ahh I was wondering how long until someone cleared this up, I knew they needed different and more specific care as younglings, wasn't sure on the rest of it though


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

woodrott said:


> so you got darwin
> hows his skin is it getting better
> how are you finding him?????


His skin is fine you just give him a spray a day.

Despite what this lot are saying he is kept in the same environment as the rest of my beardys - same uv, same basking bulb and has been thriving this way for quite some time. They have the sense to use the cool side when they need and self regulate well. 

If he is having a particuarly hard time shedding i will use some e45 cream on him. The burn or irritated skin on his leg is from a previous owner, he hasnt had any problems since i've had him. 

Each to their own, if they dont like the look of them. But he is a vigorous feeder and a very healthy dragon - this is the vets opinion aswell as mine.


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

E45 confirmed safe for beardies then? I been wondering about that. Could be good for bad shed spots but been reluctant to use it, not that the occasion has come up where I would need to yet. 

Bit off topic I know but handy in this thread for those that want to keep silkbacks. Could come in handy


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

nicnet said:


> E45 confirmed safe for beardies then? I been wondering about that. Could be good for bad shed spots but been reluctant to use it, not that the occasion has come up where I would need to yet.
> 
> Bit off topic I know but handy in this thread for those that want to keep silkbacks. Could come in handy


Yeah i've been using it for a while after his baths, i tend not to use it for his head. Wouldnt trust it enough to risk getting it in his eyes or whatever.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

DanielEM said:


> His skin is fine you just give him a spray a day.
> 
> Despite what this lot are saying he is kept in the same environment as the rest of my beardys - same uv, same basking bulb and has been thriving this way for quite some time. They have the sense to use the cool side when they need and self regulate well.
> 
> ...


 
hi there

i never saw the burn on him when the other girl had him???

when you enquired about him he was on hold,,,yes,,,

he was on hold for me , but the genetics were wrong for my breeding plans

i must say you have been so lucky to have no problems
with it,, as your silk back knowledge is very lacking
just about everything you have said goes against
the grain

i must add luck is not the wright way to go but i hope it lasts for you

mark


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

I guess the underlying point here is that there is no "one size fits all" approach to husbandry of this 'morph' (as with many other things). It is thoroughly reasonable to expect husbandry requirements to be altered with such marked phenotypic variation, but it is by no means a given.

This mutation interests me a lot, not for the look of the animal, but for the insight potential comparative study can generate. At best all I have seen so far is objective "X and Y works for me", we really haven't seen any evidence of 'performance' (perhaps because results are not so positive?... skeptical as ever).

I guess its a wait and see. Interesting though.

Andy


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> I guess the underlying point here is that there is no "one size fits all" approach to husbandry of this 'morph' (as with many other things). It is thoroughly reasonable to expect husbandry requirements to be altered with such marked phenotypic variation, but it is by no means a given.
> 
> This mutation interests me a lot, not for the look of the animal, but for the insight potential comparative study can generate. At best all I have seen so far is objective "X and Y works for me", we really haven't seen any evidence of 'performance' (perhaps because results are not so positive?... skeptical as ever).
> 
> ...


 
hi there Andy nice to here from you again as usual a valid in site:lol2:
sorry had to say that

Ive give up ,,,,,i give my recommendations if people take them then fine 
but I'm not going to preach.
most no me now so its up to them

but as you know from Alexandro there are a few guidelines to follow when owning a silk back??????? and he would know??? enough said:2thumb:

mark


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

woodrott said:


> hi there Andy nice to here from you again as usual a valid in site:lol2:
> sorry had to say that
> 
> Ive give up ,,,,,i give my recommendations if people take them then fine
> ...


I agree with Andy - like any specailist animal, an all size fits all approach just doesnt work. I've had Darwin for a while now, and as i say, he gets regular vet visits and is said to be healthy everytime. 

I dont understand where you think i'm going wrong?

They can apparently only handle a 5.0 uv bulb - but this information has come from 1st hand care of an *individual*. Lots of variables could influence this, not just the lack of scales. I've taken my care processes from 1st hand experience with this specific specimen and again, in close co-operation with a qualified vet that has seen my setup in person (no offense but if he says he's fine, hes fine - i trust his opinion) and have found it has worked the best. 

Your entitled to your opinion and i appreciate the feedback - if problems arrise i will gladly put my hands up and say im wrong.


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

In general I would think that a beardies scales are the factor in how much UV can penetrate to the skin itself to be absorbed. No scales and it would logically make sense that UV would be absorbed easier. Scales could act as a sort of sun shield. 

Since normal scaled beardies can get 'sunburn' from being too close to a uv, I would say it may possibly be safer to reduce the % uv on a silkie to avoid uv burns.

Only way to be certain really is for two to be kept in the same conditions, one with 5% and one with 10% and see the results. Since they are a man made morph with very little data as to MBD and UV % thats going to be the only way to find out for certain. Disadvantage to that though is that one of them is either going to get UV burns or MBD.

Thats the problem with man made morphs and hybrid species I think, until enough solid data is collected then errors in judgement is going to be made along the way. There is no definative right/wrong way with these yet as far as I can see.

Now before anyone flames on that, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, its just my observations.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

nicnet said:


> Since they are a man made morph...
> Thats the problem with man made morphs


Note: Silkback isn't "manmade". It's the homozygous expression of a spontaneous co-dominant mutation, and was just as likely to have occurred in the wild as it was to have occurred in captivity.


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

nicnet said:


> In general I would think that a beardies scales are the factor in how much UV can penetrate to the skin itself to be absorbed. No scales and it would logically make sense that UV would be absorbed easier. Scales could act as a sort of sun shield.
> 
> Since normal scaled beardies can get 'sunburn' from being too close to a uv, I would say it may possibly be safer to reduce the % uv on a silkie to avoid uv burns.
> 
> ...


I agree, that does make sense.
Like you say though, solid data has to be collected until either argument is proven correct/incorrect. The best i can do for darwin is intense monitering in conjuction with a qualified vet. If problems arise i will change the way his viv is setup.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

DanielEM said:


> I agree with Andy - like any specailist animal, an all size fits all approach just doesnt work. I've had Darwin for a while now, and as i say, he gets regular vet visits and is said to be healthy everytime.
> 
> I dont understand where you think i'm going wrong?
> 
> ...


 
ok 
if your happy your way then fine

all i say is keep an open mind
you have only had him a few months
you probably have more experience with a silk back than your vet
yours could be the first hes seen

as Andy said its all new#
but keep in mind alexandro
he was the first to create the morph and his experience is invaluable

mark


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

woodrott said:


> ok
> if your happy your way then fine
> 
> all i say is keep an open mind
> ...


I'll be sure to look him up, cheers for the input nevertheless 

mixed opinions so far then 

Well he has 28 eggs in the incubator so watch this space! :2thumb:


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## krome187 (Apr 29, 2011)

mg: sorry but i think its wrong to be playing with nature to the point where natural features are gone, i mean colour morphs are one thing but, this poor guy looks ridiculous, dare i say a freak.
i wonder what the effects of having no scales does to the long term health of them, do they suffer skin problems or other problems to do with uv for example?, anyway each to their own and not for me


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

DanielEM said:


> I'll be sure to look him up, cheers for the input nevertheless
> 
> mixed opinions so far then
> 
> Well he has 28 eggs in the incubator so watch this space! :2thumb:


 
well eggs then hatch lings that's a whole new ball game

here's my number just in case

01244382780

mark


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

As this seems to be the place to ask, is it normal practice to rub baby oil into the skin of Silk backs? I only ask because I know of a shop that has one that has shedding problems and that's what they do.


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

baby oil + UV = sunburn?

I wouldnt dream of going out in the sun if I had baby oil on my skin, being brough up in Africa I know that is an absolute no no, it makes you fry.

Personally I'd think it wasnt such a great idea.


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

nicnet said:


> baby oil + UV = sunburn?
> 
> I wouldnt dream of going out in the sun if I had baby oil on my skin, being brough up in Africa I know that is an absolute no no, it makes you fry.
> 
> Personally I'd think it wasnt such a great idea.


See, this would have been my thought.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

andy007 said:


> See, this would have been my thought.


ask then to try a combination of tea tree oil and alow vera
these products have a natural skin softening agent
and mild antiseptic properties

but only a small area as some can react


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

woodrott said:


> ask then to try a combination of tea tree oil and alow vera
> these products have a natural skin softening agent
> and mild antiseptic properties
> 
> but only a small area as some can react


Ok thanks for that: victory: I doubt they'll listen though unfortunately, but will try. Would the baby oil be causing more problems than they are trying to solve?


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

andy007 said:


> Ok thanks for that: victory: I doubt they'll listen though unfortunately, but will try. Would the baby oil be causing more problems than they are trying to solve?


 
in a word,,,yes


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

woodrott said:


> in a word,,,yes


Ok thanks again. It was pointed out to them that it wasn't a good idea, but they just shrug their shoulders:bash:


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

woodrott said:


> ask then to try a combination of tea tree oil and alow vera
> these products have a natural skin softening agent
> and mild antiseptic properties
> 
> but only a small area as some can react



Not sure if this would be any good. but worth looking at. Its for dogs/cats but is an antibacterial balm, with tea tree oil in.

ExmaRid Tea Tree Antibacterial Balm 75g - From the DOG Specialists


i use it on my dogs for minor scrapes / flea bites, it stops them scratching. Dries up any scabs pretty quickly also.

It says not to use on broken skin as it will sting slightly. 

If one of the more experienced keepers wants to have a look at it and give their opinion.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

nicnet said:


> Not sure if this would be any good. but worth looking at. Its for dogs/cats but is an antibacterial balm, with tea tree oil in.
> 
> ExmaRid Tea Tree Antibacterial Balm 75g - From the DOG Specialists
> 
> ...


 
hi there
would need more info than is on the link
its the drying up that would concern me ???
also it would need to be water soluble


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

May be worth contacting the manufacturer and see if you can talk to someone in labs.

Seven Seas Limited
Hedon Road
Hull
HU9 5NJ

Welcome To Pets Healthcare


It dries up sores fairly fast, but not skin on my dogs. I'm also wondering if it would be any good for mites, since it does chase off fleas, they cant stand the smell of it.

Has possibilities on neck ridge bites from breeding also I would think.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

nicnet said:


> May be worth contacting the manufacturer and see if you can talk to someone in labs.
> 
> Seven Seas Limited
> Hedon Road
> ...


it would need to be checked into
maybe a project for you to do???


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

woodrott said:


> it would need to be checked into
> maybe a project for you to do???


I'll see what I can find out, thats IF they will tell me whats in it lol.

oh btw, it also works great on human exema, moms sister in law used to use it on her dogs, and her own excema cleared up haha.


Edit. Mailed them. copy follows, slightly edited to remove my personal information. I'll chase them up next week if I dont get a reply.

*Dear Sir/Madam*

* I have a question for your research and devolpment team or lab regarding the suitability of Exmarid Tea Tree Antibacterial Balm for us on a certain morph of bearded dragon.*

*It is a new morph that is known for its skin problems, specifically shedding and skin burns from essential UVB lighting used.*

*They are scaleless bearded dragons known as Silkbacks.*

*I was wondering if any research had been done on the suitability of this product on reptiles at all, or if anyone would be willing to contact me regards it use on reptiles.*

*I do realise that it is not tested or sold as a reptile product, and you could in no way be held responsible for its use as such. *
*A few keepers of the Silkback bearded dragon are however interested in its possibilities due to the fragile nature of the skin on this morph. *

*It would of course depend on the ingredients that are in the product as to its use on reptiles, again I realise that a full list of ingredients would more than likely not be forthcoming due to copyrights, it would however be very helpful if I could be assured that the ingredients used could be deemed safe for reptile use.*

*This product would be very well recieved by the reptile community if it could be deemed safe for use. Due to the nature of breeding in lizards, there is generally some minor damage to neck ridges behind the head of the female, and sometimes some minor skin damage to the male also. This in a normal morph bearded dragon is not an issue, however due to the fragile skin of a Silkback dragon this can be an issue.*

*Again I would be grateful for any information you could provide me on this, I am a member of a rather large reptile forum that also includes international breeders, they would be very interested in its use if it could be deemed safe.*

*Awaiting your reply*

*Regards*


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

I've been using small amounts of e45 cream and it works a treat - the previous owner used this as well.


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

woodrott said:


> well eggs then hatch lings that's a whole new ball game
> 
> here's my number just in case
> 
> ...


Appreciated. I'm confident that i have maxed out all available sources of information regarding the topic of baby silkie care - but you can never have too many helpful people like yourself to fall back on just in case


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Good to know that works, I'll make sure I keep some on hand also.

Interesting thing with the exmarid though is that it may also have the potential of chasing off mites, it does it dogs. Fleas and mites absolutely hate the smell of tea tree oil. With the added antibacterial in it also, it could work as a nice all rounder.

Got back the standard mail 'we will send to relevant department and reply within 28 days' etc.

I'll let you guys know if they get back to me.


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

Nice one 

the silkie threads paying off already ;D


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

lmfao. and I still dont like silkies.


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

xD they'll grow on ya, you'll come round soon enough ;D


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## Alon93 (Jul 5, 2010)

nicnet said:


> In general I would think that a beardies scales are the factor in how much UV can penetrate to the skin itself to be absorbed. No scales and it would logically make sense that UV would be absorbed easier. Scales could act as a sort of sun shield.
> 
> Since normal scaled beardies can get 'sunburn' from being too close to a uv, I would say it may possibly be safer to reduce the % uv on a silkie to avoid uv burns.
> 
> ...


It's much easiser to take a fresh shed from each and see how much UV they each let it by using a solarmeter.


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## LiamMP (Oct 27, 2010)

Good news. This lil silkie has emerged from my first clutch


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## AlbinoMuffin (May 15, 2011)

kirky1980 said:


> i dont like them personaly they look like a shaved scrotum:gasp: but everyone has there tastes and some people like a shaved scrotum :lol2:


 :lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

LiamMP said:


> Good news. This lil silkie has emerged from my first clutch
> 
> image
> 
> image


well done, pleased for you, but... it looks like a gremlin..


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## Rthompson (Feb 19, 2011)

evilshiddenclaws said:


> well done, pleased for you, but... It looks like a gremlin..


lmao!


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## MaMExotics (Dec 4, 2010)

very nice any one own these and dose any one have a link to a care sheet?


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## SkinheadOi85 (Sep 28, 2008)

Im not sure if i like them or not....they are different i`ll give them that....would i buy one..doubtful, would i take one as a rescue if needed and i could accomadate.yes.

That is however as i am not a huge fan of morphs or alterations but if I could care for an animal that needed it I would.

I am interested in the development of the babies tho and how they compare to say normals...would u keep hatchling norms with silkies ??


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Ssthisto said:


> Note: Silkback isn't "manmade". It's the homozygous expression of a spontaneous co-dominant mutation, and was just as likely to have occurred in the wild as it was to have occurred in captivity.



What are the chances of a leatherback breeding with a leatherback in the wild? Then what are the chances of the silkback surviving in the wild, no one is going to be there to rub cream on, or adjust the UV of the sun. 

Its survival of the fittest in the wild, imho these are not fit enough. 

It's man made, it could have happened in the wild yes! but it is completely unlikely.


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

SkinheadOi85 said:


> Im not sure if i like them or not....they are different i`ll give them that....would i buy one..doubtful, would i take one as a rescue if needed and i could accomadate.yes.
> 
> That is however as i am not a huge fan of morphs or alterations but if I could care for an animal that needed it I would.
> 
> I am interested in the development of the babies tho and how they compare to say normals...would u keep hatchling norms with silkies ??


 I personally keep silkies and leathers/norms separate. Hatchling silkies require less uv, not only that they are much more valuable than their leatherback brethren, breeders will often keep them separate to remove the risk of nips.



As for their development there isnt many differences between the two, apart from a more flakey shed. Interestingly, they also develop much sharper claws then other beardys and I've never found out why...some homework for you all


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

DavieB said:


> What are the chances of a leatherback breeding with a leatherback in the wild? Then what are the chances of the silkback surviving in the wild, no one is going to be there to rub cream on, or adjust the UV of the sun.
> 
> Its survival of the fittest in the wild, imho these are not fit enough.
> 
> It's man made, it could have happened in the wild yes! but it is completely unlikely.


 Your right, these guys wouldn't survive in the wild. But then, neither would 80% of dog breeds, doesn't really detract from their awesomeness. Using natural selection to identify an animal's worth within the pet trade is kind of irrelevant. 

Each to their own though, just my opinion, i think their fascinating!


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## ..:: F1D0 ::.. (May 13, 2009)

DavieB said:


> What are the chances of a leatherback breeding with a leatherback in the wild? Then what are the chances of the silkback surviving in the wild, no one is going to be there to rub cream on, or adjust the UV of the sun.
> 
> Its survival of the fittest in the wild, imho these are not fit enough.
> 
> It's man made, it could have happened in the wild yes! but it is completely unlikely.


Im sorry but no genetic mutation is "man made" we dont go round with gene injections saying "oh...i want rainbow coloured lizard so i will inject it with this rainbow gene" ANYTHING bred in captivity has a chance of being bred in the wild.

Also


> It's man made, it could have happened in the wild yes! but it is completely unlikely


 makes no sense. Your saying it is man made but it could happen in the wild?! then your saying it is completely (in other words, never happen) unlikely (in other words theres a chance)

As above in my opinion, no mutation is man made, it is selected breeding and genes are thrown up.


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

..:: F1D0 ::.. said:


> Im sorry but no genetic mutation is "man made" we dont go round with gene injections saying "oh...i want rainbow coloured lizard so i will inject it with this rainbow gene" ANYTHING bred in captivity has a chance of being bred in the wild.
> 
> Also makes no sense. Your saying it is man made but it could happen in the wild?! then your saying it is completely (in other words, never happen) unlikely (in other words theres a chance)
> 
> As above in my opinion, no mutation is man made, it is selected breeding and genes are thrown up.


Is it simpler to say I disagree with selective breeding then? 

That includes Kennel club which I think should be shut down , cats and anything else in the pet trade.

It constantly runs the risk of breeding weakness and deformities and there are few breeders on here that are qualified enough to carry it out. Some are too profit driven. Especially when concerning Leopard Geckos and Crested Geckos. The Bearded dragons dont seem to suffer through it, except in the case of silkies. (thats not to say its unheard of)


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## LiamMP (Oct 27, 2010)

The only case in which the silkies would suffer is if the buyer wasn't aware that altered care IS needed.

As for bloodlines any responsible breeder would source well, but I'm sure there are some running around with weak incest babies.

A real breeder will pay top price for top strong blooded breeders as to not weaken or spread deformities.


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

DavieB said:


> It constantly runs the risk of breeding weakness and deformities.


This simply is not true. Irresponsible breeding for a quick buck is out there yes, but your statement has no validity. 



DavieB said:


> The Bearded dragons dont seem to suffer through it, except in the case of silkies.


Again, there is no evidence to suggest silkbacks suffer as a result of their physical characteristics. Your plucking these statements from thin air without any evidence or even educated guessing.


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## ..:: F1D0 ::.. (May 13, 2009)

DanielEM said:


> This simply is not true. Irresponsible breeding for a quick buck is out there yes, but your statement has no validity.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, there is no evidence to suggest silkbacks suffer as a result of their physical characteristics. Your plucking these statements from thin air without any evidence or even educated guessing.


Agree with this totally! Whilst they can suffer issues with shedding and very fragile. NOBODY knows exactly what care is required. I do know that Woodrott knows people who have kept them as "normal" beardies.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

silk backs

my opinion

possible silk backs in the wild 

its statistically not impossible but all so would say the chance would be extremely rear there's just to many factors involved
and if it did happen i would suggest it would be localised

the silk back gene

at this present time i would say its probably one of the weakest genes in bearded dragons,the rear rate to adult is very poor compared to a standard dragon, but also would say the husbandry level of a lot,,,but not all of the breeders is also inadequate. as has been said in other posts a few are trying to cash in breeding any leathers[poor colours and poor quality] just to get silk backs

here at fire and ice UK i have been breeding for silk backs now for 4 years
and I'm still at the leather stage it will be still 2 plus years before i think the leather standard would be up to scratch to try for silk backs

breeding silk backs to a high standard is not a quick thing
well not if you wont to produce a good strong line

general care

I'm of the opinion that you should not fully look after them as a standard dragon

there needs not being dissimilar are still different
points to look for are

dehydration
uv tolerance
skin care 
infection
all the above are easy to cope with
your vigilance just has to go up a notch or two
and change your daily Regine to accommodate there needs

mark


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

DanielEM said:


> DavieB said:
> 
> 
> > It constantly runs the risk of breeding weakness and deformities
> ...


Actually, this is completely true. Breeding of *any* sort has a risk of creating offspring which are homozygous for deleterious recessive alleles (or deleterious co-dominant alleles in certain cases). The key points however, are the magnitude of the risk (which is increased with successive generations of inbreeding) and how you treat these offspring when they arise. With a realistic breeding plan however (including very strict selection pressure), this is not a problem.



DanielEM said:


> DavieB said:
> 
> 
> > The Bearded dragons dont seem to suffer through it, except in the case of silkies.
> ...


There is *plenty* of evidence to say that the homozygous form of this mutation causes problems under standard conditions. Denying this is folly. However, the key here, is that the conditions *must* be tailored to suit the animal, and not the other way around.

Of course 'selection' favors those most suited ('fittest') to a particular environment, however, we are not bound by the constraints of the 'wild' and are perfectly justified in changing the environment to suit the animal. Cooler temperature, increased humidity, and altered diet are all methods we can use to ensure that skin problems are remedied in these animals.



DavieB said:


> Is it simpler to say I disagree with selective breeding then?


If you prefer, but I would suggest that with this type of opinion, you must be very hungry indeed (or a tad hypocritical?).



woodrott said:


> silk backs
> 
> at this present time i would say its probably one of the weakest genes in bearded dragons,the rear rate to adult is very poor compared to a standard dragon, but also would say the husbandry level of a lot,,,but not all of the breeders is also inadequate. as has been said in other posts a few are trying to cash in breeding any leathers[poor colours and poor quality] just to get silk backs


I would suggest that it is not appropriate to suggest that a 'gene is weak' (this is anthropomorphism... and even then not strictly true). You can say, that under given conditions, homozygous individuals perform less well than heterozygous individuals (and recessive WT homozygous individuals). However, they perform adequately under other conditions. Selective advantage only applies under the environmental conditions it was selected under. Thus we are able to work backwards here, and find an environment where this mutation (or at least the homozygous form) is favoured.

I would strongly question the suggestion that this morphotype has a higher mortality rate than non-silkback individuals. Given the *extremely* low life expectancy of this species, and the price associated with keeping this morph, I would suggest you may find non-silkbacks die earlier (due in no small part to the magnitude difference, and the number of people that buy dragons on a whim). I don't doubt that silkbacks pose different problems, but attempting to raise them like normal dragons is asking for trouble.

Andy


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Actually, this is completely true. Breeding of *any* sort has a risk of creating offspring which are homozygous for deleterious recessive alleles (or deleterious co-dominant alleles in certain cases). The key points however, are the magnitude of the risk (which is increased with successive generations of inbreeding) and how you treat these offspring when they arise. With a realistic breeding plan however (including very strict selection pressure), this is not a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
hi Andy

i will concede that the use of the word weak was probably my era
and you have obviously worded it more appropriately

the point i was trying to get across was a lot of breeders were trying to breed silk backs with no regards to the selection[ standard] of the pairing,also adding to the equation there poor knowledge of the best environmental needs

now there dose seem to be a higher death rate in silk back babies
this will need further investigation to find the course
ive come to the conclusion that this mite not be avoidable
as a number or them were dead in shell
what springs to mind is the incubation may be slightly different but i cannot understand why
and selecting the silk back eggs from a clutch for me would be impossible,and for 99% of breeders too, hence unavoidable

there has been a trend that a lot of silk back babies are weak at hatching or become weak in there first few days
and may be this is just down to the environmental conditions there kept in so they have not had the best start in life


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

GlasgowGecko said:


> If you prefer, but I would suggest that with this type of opinion, you must be very hungry indeed (or a tad hypocritical?).
> 
> 
> 
> Andy


Selective breeding in cattle and livestock is not carried out to create aesthetically pleasing cows or sheep.


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## thething84 (Apr 26, 2010)

personally i am afraid i not so keen on the look of them, they look like they been dosed with too much radiation.


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

bottom line - opinions are fine, but there isn't enough evidence to suggest anything stated here, either way. Silkies are relative newcomers to the hobby, because of this there have been no studies thorough enough to prove anything said true or false. And although most of my opinions disagree with much that has been said, i also have no proof either way so flaming can go on forever without any actual conclusion - i draw from personal experience.

I own a few silkies, that receive regular vet visits and are cared for separate from normals and silkies. I haven't seen any negative outcomes as a result of their unusual characteristics apart from uneducated and neglectful owners and breeders. Personal experience is valuable, but not conclusive, i can only take the regularly checked health of my current specimens as a sign i'm doing things correctly - and that is the closest any of the people in this thread has to evidence.


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

but they look like they've been skinned... :S

its like hairless animals.... they're just icky lookin lol


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## Nattie08 (Mar 11, 2009)

Not keen at all, nothing against people who do have them etc, but they just look they have been hideously burnt in a fire and their skin has started melting off. I love my beardies the way they are, all spiky!! The silkie in the second picture looks like he would have some amazing colours on him though, just rather it was through scaly, spiky skin that's all


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

you gotta call it Freddie Krueger :lol2: how cute would that be  haha


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

Nattie08 said:


> Not keen at all, nothing against people who do have them etc, but they just look they have been hideously burnt in a fire and their skin has started melting off. I love my beardies the way they are, all spiky!! The silkie in the second picture looks like he would have some amazing colours on him though, just rather it was through scaly, spiky skin that's all


 
haha, fair enough mate, each to their own. And i agree they are ugly, for me thats part of their charm lol, theres a cuteness in their gankyness


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## jack clutter (Dec 13, 2009)

I love those first ones, If you bred a couple of silkies together would you get leather backs? Also do they ever come up for sale?


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

Im not sure what a silkback x silkback would be, would still produce leatherbacks, but not much. People wont breed silkie with a silkie (etleast a responsible breeder wont) because the harshness of breeding will cause rips and tears on the female, the only pairing can be a male silkie on a female leather. You may also get a microscaled leatherback from this pairing, here is an example:










and here is a few hatchlings from the same pairing










As you can see the results can be diverse. 

I currently have some for sale, the father is shown on the begining of this thread, in the 2nd pic and they will all grow up to look as stunning 

here is the thread if your interested, http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizard-classifieds/716329-gorgeous-leatherback-silkback-bearded-dragons-4.html


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

DanielEM said:


> Im not sure what a silkback x silkback would be, would still produce leatherbacks, but not much.


Silkback, since it's homozygous for the gene that makes leatherbacks and silkbacks, would produce nothing but silkbacks if bred to a silkback, same as breeding an albino royal to another albino royal will not produce any normal-looking ones.


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## xDEADFAMOUSx (Jul 15, 2011)

im not too sure if i like them, bit like those hairless cats...

my OH loves them though!


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> Silkback, since it's homozygous for the gene that makes leatherbacks and silkbacks, would produce nothing but silkbacks if bred to a silkback, same as breeding an albino royal to another albino royal will not produce any normal-looking ones.


oh i see 

cheers

Even though, if you saw a clutch of pure silkies, you know someone has put aside the welfare of the animal for more money


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## kalbie (Apr 19, 2010)

i have just produced some silkbacks they started hatching yesterday, so far 10 have hatched and 2 are silkies


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

kalbie said:


> i have just produced some silkbacks they started hatching yesterday, so far 10 have hatched and 2 are silkies


awesome news 

pictures appreciated


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## vicky.beach (Oct 27, 2010)

I personally find it disturbing, i think the mixing with genetics has gone way too far. Bearded dragons are spikey and scaley, these are not. They're skin is not supposed to be like that, it makes the skin too delicate


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## kalbie (Apr 19, 2010)

DanielEM said:


> awesome news
> 
> pictures appreciated


 i will try my best, i will creat a new thread soon however cant do it now


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## DanielEM (Sep 14, 2010)

vicky.beach said:


> I personally find it disturbing, i think the mixing with genetics has gone way too far. Bearded dragons are spikey and scaley, these are not. They're skin is not supposed to be like that, it makes the skin too delicate


I am a huge fan of silkbacks, but i agree, their genetics are inferior and as a whole silkbacks are runtier and unhealthier than their leatherback/normal siblings. 

To breed a silkback is purely for the gratification of the owner and is a selfish act of unnecessary experimentation. And this is from someone who has bred them, i was wrong to do so in the same way its wrong to breed pedigree dogs. 

I didn't appreciate how geneticly inferior silkbacks are, and have experienced first hand their downfalls and felt the guilt for encouraging this dark part of the hobby. Although as a specticle they are fantastic, as an animal they are a production of cruelty.

Hard to admit but true nevertheless!


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## tom12349333 (Sep 30, 2009)

ive never ever seen or heard of these before! they're weird. 
They look like they've been constructed out of cured salmon! hahaha :lol2:


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## sallyreed (Mar 4, 2012)

I have 2 silkys and think there great in the right hands )


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## XtremeReptiles (Aug 10, 2011)

I have heard of these before but never seen them. I search into google silkback bearded dragon and it just looked like a beardie that has been stripped of its spikes and scales :gasp: and the spikes and scales is what makes a beardie :bash:. I think it is very wrong.


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