# Mixing species -PLEASE READ



## Art_Gecko101

After a conversations and pms from a few members, it's become apparent that a few of think that a sticky is needed to give information about species mixing as there are so many threads about it. I've tried to make it as objective as possible, but i know everyone has their own opinions. I know its a 'hot topic' but please try and keep any replies civil, this is just supposed to give information to those needing it. 


Mixing species of reptiles and amphibians is always a controversial subject. Some people may have luck with it, but for the majority of keepers, it is not something that is advised and it has the potential to go very horribly wrong. Very often, people post threads asking about whether they can mix ‘this’ with ‘that’, and so here I hope to clarify some of the reasons mixing species does not normally work. Many pet shops will mix species together to save space, and even recommend to customers that they are fine together, even when they most likely will not be for the long term. This post is not intended to be an attack on anyone who does mix species, and nor is it supposed to lay down ‘the rules’ that you must follow. It is simply information about the very important considerations that must be made when thinking about mixing species, and an attempt to help people wondering why people say it shouldn’t be done.
I have tried to base the majority of this information on science, and not just the hear-say and gossip that inevitably gets passed around as fact. Some people will have success with mixing species, and there are very rare exceptions to the general rules where 2 species are relatively compatible, but before you attempt mixing species, you must 1st be armed with as much knowledge about the problems as possible.


*Conditions.*
As herptiles are ectotherms (cannot regulate their internal body conditions) living conditions are even more important than in other taxa. The species available in the pet trade come from a wide range of countries and environments which need to be simulated in their captive housing. This is the 1st consideration you must make when thinking of mixing species. How will you provide both species with its optimum conditions in the same vivarium? Even species that originate from the same country will need different conditions as in the wild they inhabit niches that are individual to them and provide them with the perfect conditions. For example, The Whites Tree frog (_Litorea caerulea_) is found in Australia, as is the Bearded Dragon (_Pogona vitticeps_). However, these 2 species need completely different conditions, and a Whites tree frog could certainly not survive in a set up designed for Bearded dragon. Even species that come from the same type of habitat, such as the whites tree frog and Red-eyed tree frog will require slightly different conditions to thrive, even though they both come from humid rainforest type environments. Without having a zoo-sized exhibit (beyond the means of most private keepers) it is impossible to provide both species with optimum conditions, and so 1 or both species will have to be compromised. This may not affect them in the short term, but as with all these issues, it may impact the long-term health of the animals.


*Fighting and stress.*
Many species are highly territorial, and as most would not encounter one another in a wild situation, there is always the risk of fighting between vivarium occupants. This is an issue with same species groups, let alone mixed species. When there is a size difference between the species, the smaller species may often be looked upon as a prey item, and the larger will attempt to eat the smaller. 

Reptiles and amphibians are very susceptible to illness from stress. Lactic acid builds up in the system as the stressed animal respires anaerobically, and can often reach fatal levels. When mixing species, the animals are kept in much closer proximity than they would ever normally be in the wild and moreover, they cannot escape. Over time this will cause great stress to the animals. Most people will agree that they want to keep their animals as healthy and naturally as possible, and in the wild they would not be forced to spend time close to another species in the way a vivarium does.


*Competition*
Different species have different habits and methods of catching prey and feeding, and these often conflict causing competition issues in a mixed vivarium. I will use species I know well to demonstrate my point here. The Whites tree frog will wait very patiently, still and silent until the exact moment to strike, and then it jumps onto its prey. This can be a few minutes even! The Crested gecko on the other hand is much more rash in its hunting methods, and will pounce on a prey item with seemingly little forethought. If these 2 species were kept in the same enclosure, the geckos hunting method would likely cause the patient frog to be out-competed as it’s silent and still approach would be disrupted. Even issues other than food may be competed over, for example, who gets the best basking site? Who gets to use the ‘best’ hide?


*The Chemistry. *
All animal species in the world carry unique bacteria and protozoans that aid different processes to us, and in return they cause us no harm and we allow them to use the body of its host as protection and habitat. This process is called symbiosis. When 2 species come into close contact (as would happen in a vivarium) the symbionts from 1 species will get passed onto the other, and this may cause the 2nd species to become ill. What is harmless and healthy for 1 species is not for another. With WC animals, these problems are exacerbated, as you not only have to deal with symbionts, but parasites and illnesses that the other species will not be resistant to as they would not have been naturally exposed to them.
With amphibians, the problems of chemistry are all the more severe, as they are particularly sensitive to external environment due to their semi-permeable skin. Even their own ammonia can kill them if water is not changed frequently enough, so add to that the waste products of another species and you have even worse problems. All amphibians produce toxic secretions from their skin, and while they may be so weak that they do not pose a health issue to us, another species, which is going to come into contact with the toxins in their environment, in their water supply, and potentially on their food, this may cause a serious health issue. Fire-bellied toads are one of the most toxic commonly kept amphibians, and I often get asked if they can be mixed with other species!


*Habits.*
When considering mixing species, thought must be given to how the different habits of the species will conflict. Diurnal species such as Anoles may conflict with nocturnal species (i.e. most geckos) as whilst one is sleeping, the other is active and may disturb the other. This is likely to cause stress.


As I said at the beginning of this post, some people do have ‘success’ with mixing species. However, a lot of these issues will not become apparent in the short term. It may be months, even years before the extent of the problems takes effect and as reptiles have such different mechanisms for displaying illhealth than mammals, we may not spot the signs until it is too late. Before you even contemplate mixing species, you need to have kept each species separately, for long enough that you can know the ins and outs of each individuals eating habits, behaviours, appearance… so that if something is wrong, you can spot it. Mixing species should NOT be done for the conservation of space. This is not a good reason to mix, as the size of enclosure that a mixed exhibit will need is far bigger than the vivariums each species would need separately. Certain exceptions apply, as in all fields, but this should not be taken lightly either as it is not always successful. Whites tree frogs may be kept successfully with Whites lipped tree frogs (same genus, _Litorea_) and likewise, Crested geckos have been kept with Mossy geckos (same genus again, _Rhacodactylus_). However, these are exceptions. Crested geckos may not be kept with any other member of their family such as the Gargoyle gecko or Leachianus, and so it is not simply a matter of how related 2 species are.

I hope that this will be interesting and useful to people considering mixing species.


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## cornmorphs

sticky as requested


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## Art_Gecko101

Cheers nige


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## Mez

What a good suggestion!: victory:


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## Art_Gecko101

lol Mez you make me laugh! hope it does the job


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## goose221

well done. good call, just in the last few days on a lot of threads there hav been loads of people askin bout mixing. someone needed to say it


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## basky

yeah fair enough but you just have to remember loads of people have successfully mixed so you can't say its not right to do if people have done it for many years. (lets no start arguing again :smile


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## CWD

basky said:


> yeah fair enough but you just have to remember loads of people have successfully mixed so you can't say its not right to do if people have done it for many years. (lets no start arguing again :smile





its wrong to mix different species full stop


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## basky

CWD said:


> its wrong to mix different species full stop


oh right so all the species in the world that live together are wrong are they?


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## basky

actually forget it, i cant be bothered to argue full stop


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## Mez

That's because you know there is no argument.
Like stated, if you can provide a "wild sized vivarium" and plan to source locality specific lizards from one particular area im sure it would work. But that's not what happens, is it.
"Can my beardie live with a CWS"?
Yes, but depending on the temperature/humidity one (or both) are not being kept at the level of responsiblity and care that should be expected.
It's not hard to say 
"well actually it can be done".
Nobody is saying you can't physically put two different species with different care requirements in the same vivarium and they might survive.
That's all they are doing, surviving. I can promise you every one of my geckos is kept naturalistically and are all _thriving in their captive environment_.
It is my opinion that if you are going to keep reps (specifically lizards/geckos) you should research that one species, find out about their natural habitats. You will find that they not come into contact with many other (if any, apart from their own species to breed) reptiles. 
Take geckos for example. in the wild, if a gecko saw a lizard, or other gecko, it would probably do one of three things:
a) Freeze/not move
b) Run away
c) Fight

In captivity they cannot do these things like they would in the wild.
In captivty there is no need/no point on mixing species, becase one would always be at a disadvantage, and the others still under stress.
In the wild, species dont "mix" like you put it. They intergrate. That is a complete bio-system, and they're not just lizards, theres bugs decomposing dead lizards, snakes catching live ones...
There is no *benefit for any species of reptile to be mixed with another*, and you have to admit that. If you won't admit that, then you've obviously very stubborn or uneducated in repile keeping.
Thinking about this still makes me say, if you really like a species, surely you would want to study it and learn more about why it would do certain things....with another reptile in you cannot do this, as one/both would proably not act true behaviour out.
I know it's a touchy subject, and i admit it can be done in zoo-style enclosures for amazon biotype, but you cant surely say it benefits reptiles in home vivariums?
The only person it would benefit is the person keeping them so they *dont have to fork out some more money for a viv*, i'll never understand it, because if you are mixing species that dont naturally occur together the neither of them are exhibiting natural behaviour...
James


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## Art_Gecko101

I'm not going to get into this, the information is there for people to make their own decisions. and people will always do just that.

Basky and I have had argued our points long and hard before, and i'm not getting into another argument here.


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## basky

mez i certainly wouldn't mix things from different areas with different requirements. i also dont advice people to mix species if they arent experienced with reps but i have done for many years with them all successfully breeding and living very happily. i also wouldn't keep mixed species in a small viv, mine is plenty big enough for them to get away from each other with more an enough hiding areas. 
like i said i dont want an arguement, but why do zoos do it if it's wrong?


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## Mez

Blazey,
Whilst you may fully understand the origins of your animals and their needs, some, ie beginners to the hobby may not.
I believe that this is the original idea of the topic and i think we should leave it at that and let people make their own minds up.
Ive only ever been to chester zoo, and they dont mix species of lizards (or snake).
James


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## basky

yeah ok leave it at that.
btw chester have sailfins with water dragons, uromastyx with tortoises, whites tree frogs with red eyes etc... but hey :smile:


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## michellexx

Ive only ever been to chester zoo, and they dont mix species of lizards (or snake).
James [/quote]

Sorry but they do, I went there only last week and saw this for myself!


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## CWD

basky said:


> yeah ok leave it at that.
> btw chester have sailfins with water dragons, uromastyx with tortoises, whites tree frogs with red eyes etc... but hey :smile:






well they need to sort it out !!!!!!


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## robje29

MMM

Some do, some dont.

The reality here is that some people do with success, others not!

Some zoo's mix exibits, its not hard to see the ones with experience!

For some to slate all mixed keepers because of belief or lack of knowledge is either petty or ignorant, the reality is it can be done but is it ethically correct to do so?

So to those reading this thread who are asking, there are 2 opinions here, I would suggest to do some more research and make your own mind up...


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## basky

CWD said:


> well they need to sort it out !!!!!!


best you get on the phone to them then lol


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## CWD

basky said:


> best you get on the phone to them then lol






get a grip :blah:


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## DeanThorpe

Mez said:


> Blazey,
> Whilst you may fully understand the origins of your animals and their needs, some, ie beginners to the hobby may not.
> I believe that this is the original idea of the topic and i think we should leave it at that and let people make their own minds up.
> 
> James


doesnt sound like that was the case...only giving one side and whne someone said [basky] the oposing view you didnt like it.. atleast thats the way It looks to me reading [and nothin against you, never even chatted to you i dont think]



CWD said:


> get a grip :blah:


whats up with you?


Anyway, it clearly is possible to mix species with similar requirements and things work well.
Its also very risky as theres so many factors, especially as bought up in original post about the germs from one species to another etc
If we accept its not a common practice, its risky but can be done... is that not all we really need?


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## mutt

well said dean :thumb: , as it was originally stated right at the beginning it is possible to house 2 different types of reptiles together, as long as the owner IS AWARE of possible risks and dangers which can occur from this.......


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## Kellybee

DeanThorpe said:


> Anyway, it clearly is possible to mix species with similar requirements and things work well.
> Its also very risky as theres so many factors, especially as bought up in original post about the germs from one species to another etc
> If we accept its not a common practice, its risky but can be done... is that not all we really need?


Well Said Dean 

The funny thing is, thats what AG wrote in the first post, never a hint of "definitely dont do it", it simply said "these are the risks, make your own mind up". Dont understand all these negative opinions, disagreeing with what is not a conclusive statement anyway.


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## basky

nice one dean, thats what ive been trying to say.


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## Kellybee

I just read a thread in the Snake section that said "*My 12 ft Retic ate my 9ft Boa*". Maybe seemingly not likely especially when so similarly sized, quite possibly someone trying to get a reaction (He didnt seem to bothered, more chuffed that he's got a new Boa) but a fact of life and entirely avoidable.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/35885-my-retic-ate-my-boa.html#post527127


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## deian

Not 12 foot, 18 foot :Na_Na_Na_Na:, so it probably did happen.

Thanks for info 'Art_Gecko101', I am one of the guilty ones who asked a 'mixing' question so you are quite right to make a sticky thread with the pros/cons of mixing.

Basially... it's a NO because it's an 'enclosed artificial environment', unless you are very experienced or an expert (as zoo's are!), it is discouraged for the stated reasons WITH scientific explanation...end of story. Again, thats not to say that some have mixed and have had good results. Personally I doubt I will be mixing any time soon.

:no1: to 'Art_Gecko101'


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## Kellybee

Doubtful Deian, for various reasons. I'm sure when you have been around the forum a while you'll learn to sniff em out :lol2:

I like your attitude toward the sticky, and the fact you had sense to ask before jumping in the deep end. Nice one bud, welcome to the forum :no1:


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## deian

thank you for thanking me :smile:


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## wurge

Should lock this thread. i thought you said no arguing?


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## tgreensmith28

I know people who keep cats together in perfect harmony with great danes and newfoundlands. I also know people who's newfoundlands will kill and have great "fun" with cats. Same applies in the reptile world, it can work yes, but sometimes its just best to not take the risk. If added captive stress can be avoided by not mixing, then it should be. If the animals have been in a community viv for years and seem fine, then dont alter the set up. Simple.


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## monstermonitor1404

In the wild 2 differnt species dont live together they just live in the same area. If there in a viv together they are being forced to live together, they have no choise.


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## reptile-mad

ive got 2 whites in with my red phase crested gecko and theyget on just fine, the food amount is even there is plenty of space for each animal as whites need a lot of room there is never conflict or no signs of illnes. But i do understand what you mean and it is good knowlegde to have if considering mixing, thanks.


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## Art_Gecko101

I keep both whites and cresteds, but having kept them ive seen even more reasons why i would not mix them. As you'll have noticed, the hunting styles of the 2 species are very different. The whites will wait for the perfect opportunity and then jump onto the insect, sometimes from quite a distance, whereas the cresteds will just dart at it as they see it. The cresteds have to be alot closer to the prey item than the frogs to be succesful. If they are all competing for the same prey items the 2 styles of hunting will disrupt the other, as, for example the crested may jump for the cricket while the frog is patiently waiting to strike. My frogs are very active hunters, much more so than the geckos, my frogs will actually jump onto my hands while im feeding them and have been known to grab onto my finger thinking it was food. How do they get on with mistaking the geckos tails for food?

Also how do you get along with making sure the frogs don't get covered in CGD?


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## C_Strike

Art_Gecko101 said:


> I keep both whites and cresteds, but having kept them ive seen even more reasons why i would not mix them. As you'll have noticed, the hunting styles of the 2 species are very different. The whites will wait for the perfect opportunity and then jump onto the insect, sometimes from quite a distance, whereas the cresteds will just dart at it as they see it. The cresteds have to be alot closer to the prey item than the frogs to be succesful. If they are all competing for the same prey items the 2 styles of hunting will disrupt the other, as, for example the crested may jump for the cricket while the frog is patiently waiting to strike. My frogs are very active hunters, much more so than the geckos, my frogs will actually jump onto my hands while im feeding them and have been known to grab onto my finger thinking it was food. How do they get on with mistaking the geckos tails for food?
> 
> Also how do you get along with making sure the frogs don't get covered in CGD?


This is obviously two species that cannot co-habit..
My beardie often cuddles up next to my dog and falls asleep, its its own decision and neither participant minds, both casually fall asleep with each other.
Its a question that is obviously species specific, this sticky is not a place to argue it though....


My vote... a mod comes and cleans up this thread from the useless jargon (no offecne to participantsd), as far as im concerned a sticky is a thread people should read, and ONY comment if really necc, in this case i think not


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## dragonbreeder

i have seen many pictures iof an exhibit of which there are mixed mspecies and none look at all stressed

i see no problem with mixing cwd & awd 7 sailfins & basilisks in a room sized enclosure bearing in mine each species should have their own different areas to frequent i.e basking sites for each individual where available

http://www.fishpondinfo.com/photos/reptiles/sailfins/janpaul3.jpg
http://www.fishpondinfo.com/photos/reptiles/sailfins/janpaul10.jpg
http://www.fishpondinfo.com/photos/reptiles/sailfins/janpaul7.jpg
http://www.fishpondinfo.com/photos/reptiles/sailfins/janpaul8.jpg - all i can say is toad...
http://www.fishpondinfo.com/photos/reptiles/sailfins/nethsail1.jpg

i poersonally dont mix and wouldnt unless i had a room sized enclosure im just stating that there are folks who do mix & have sucess so here we go - proof lol

Erik


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## basky

oh wow thats pretty impressive :no1:


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## dragonbreeder

it is the most impressive display i've seen & from what I can make out its from a private collection which is truly amazing

Erik


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## Marinam2

Okay, I'm throwing in a new angle for you all to consider.

As a general rule nearly all reptiles in the wild live solitary lives coming together only to breed, females do not even tend their young for goodness sake, they make a nest lay eggs and run away. 
In captivity we force them in to an unnatural setting (I'm not even going to raise the arguments of tubs/boxes and racks ) with artificial light and heat and hope that they thrive. Then we decide we want to put in the opposite sex to produce babies, instinct takes over i don't think they choose to do it.
Then we think it'll be a good idea to get more than one and "hope" that the other one likes it. Because they do not scrap we think hey success.

We do it because we want as many as possible in the smallest space possible. Plenty of people myself included have put their own selfish needs before that of their pets and its time that some of these people stop and think if they really are providing the best possible for their pets or just massaging their own needs/wants and desires.

Marina


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## Mez

> Then we decide we want to put in the opposite sex to produce babies, instinct takes over i don't think they choose to do it.


- that's not true and you know it.
There are many species of gecko (and snake im sure) that are not easy to breed, and you can not just throw them in together.
Many only breed at certain times of the year, in certain places, and people have tried unsucesfully to breed geckos over and over, then one year they might breed..after lots of tweaking.
It is incorrect to say instincts take over and they dont choose to do it..
Geckos have instincts to be mated and lay eggs to continue their species...some, take pictus geckos for example, will copulate as many times possible, and the female will keep laying eggs even after being taken away from the male after the first copulation for months, even years.
Some speceis will only lay eggs in underground chambers, some only in tree hollows, and some will lay anywhere and everywhere.
Tiz not right to generalise...


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## Drummerkid

Great Guide


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## gex

Well done never thought about mixing species but i enjoyed reading the information nice job very informative.


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## leopardgeckos4me

*Great job very intresting and knowlagable  *


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## Steve

Excellent Information A*...have a cookie...and for whats its worth my Iguana gets on great with his Yucca tree..


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## dobby

basky said:


> oh right so all the species in the world that live together are wrong are they?


 
A tank is a lot smaller than the world..........


A lion can live happily in Africa with many people.............put one lion in a room with one or two people...................

Piles of smiles, Dobby.x


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## DeanThorpe

yeh but if you read what that was in response to was an equally one sided
"wrong full stop"


the hole thread...is actually a pretty good read..


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## geckomad

welll, at barnsley college, wigfield farm exotics room, theyre keeping anoles with fire bellied toads, and there getting along swimingly


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## cracksolja

Aye it's not adviseable but i've seen this several times, I think aslong as your tank is good in height chances of the evil occuring are slim since anoles like to be live up high (well in the branches anyway but height is needy) - but bare in mind if you have a FBT tank set up like mine risk of drowing is a factor !

But personally iv seen alot of people mixing an not have problems but then again theres the "RISK" something "COULD" happen....

Id like to mix the two species but dont have a spare tank incase worst came to worst occured - plus my terrar isnt enough in height to support the height for anoles ! 

I'd need a 65cm in height iv got 45 CM ATM !



geckomad said:


> welll, at barnsley college, wigfield farm exotics room, theyre keeping anoles with fire bellied toads, and there getting along swimingly


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## DeanThorpe

geckomad said:


> welll, at barnsley college, wigfield farm exotics room, theyre keeping anoles with fire bellied toads, and there getting along swimingly


and they are all accounted for?
gettin along is one thing... staying healthy is the possible issue.


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## geckomad

yeah very healthy, feeding well, drinking well, only thing im trieing ot do is get them to put abit more branching up. btw i want everyone to go on you tube and abuse a person who feeds anoles to his beardie. its cruel.....


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## Art_Gecko101

The big problem with FBTs is the level of toxins they produce, the people in your school will most likely not be able to tell hoe the anoles are suffring internally by being subjected to contact with their toxins, it'll be in everything, decor, water.... you name it. Asking for trouble with FBTs, even people who do advocate mixing dont recommend FBTs as candidates!!


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## arthur cooke

Hi all, I'm a newby and I don't want to upset people but I would like to debate mixed vivs, altho I call them multi-species vivs.
I first started a multi-species viv some 20 odd years ago. It started because I wanted to create a naturalistic viv. After a period of trial and error I built a vivarium to my own design and the theme was a forest edge, quite humid but not a rainforest.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, I decided some ten years ago that an environment couldn't really be natural if it contained only one type of animal. After all in nature, your average lizard, snake, frog etc would meet hundreds of different types of creature, not only would they meet other types of reptiles, but also birds, mammals etc, so I looked to see what could be done to create an environment like this.
If I was to grow plants naturally then I had to look at the substrate, in nature it wouldn't be just bark etc, it would be soil of some kind and it would have bacteria, worms and so on, So I have my substrate 2 ft deep with an under soil heater and it has worms, fruit beetle larva, giant millipedes. I planted many plants,installed a pond and water fall, to aid humidity, enough lighting to keep the plants happy and growing.
To this over a period of about year I added more and more creatures. Green anoles, Asian long tailed grass lizard, Golddust day geckos,rough green snakes, Greys tree frogs, Hermit land crabs, Strawberry finches. Oh and some guppies in the pond.
That viv continued for some seven years, with few problems with the animals, plants caused more.
My present viv is a walk in viv, a purpose built conservatory, where I can sit surrounded by the animals. There are less animals in the new one because I am intending to move to Italy and I will buy what I need when I get there.
The present viv has green anoles,golddust day geckos, rough greens, hermit land crabs, orange cheeked waxbill, a pair of Chinese painted quail. Some giant millies.
There are some rules that need to be followed, no animal should be big enough to predate on another or interact, don't put brown and green anoles together, males will fight.
Don't overcrowd, try to have animals at different levels, some on the ground, some in the tree tops.
Pick animals that have roughly the same requirement re humidity, temp etc.
Have as many basking spots as possible, ie, so animals don't fight over them.
Provide loads of cover so animal can hide if they need to.
Try and put the food in as many different places so they can't fight over food.
Try to ensure that animals are captive bred and are healthy.
I'm not saying that it is problem free but careful thought will surmount most problems and the end result is an exciting viv full of life.
cheers arthur


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## basky

WOW that sounds fantastic


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## Tina

:welcome1:to the forum Arthur. That sounds awesome, any chance of some pictures for us?


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## kaimarion

That sounds awsome youve gotta show us some pics  .


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## miffikins

That sounds really well thought out. I think avoiding overcrowding is definatly important. I would love a massive multi spcies set-up like that, but I have no where near the experience that must be needed!

Would love to see some piccies!

: victory:


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## DeanThorpe

aye...pics....now...please 

Thing is though, in the wild they prolyl wouldnt really meet...the wild is big and in some cases foot for foot, quite sparse.
if a mileped walks up to an anole in the wild the anole prolly jumps away.. much further than the viv would allow.
But still, good job and would liek to see pics.


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## matt020593

That sounds amazing! I want one lol.
How well do the Rough Green snakes get on with the Anoles? I've been thinking about getting one to go in my 4 ft vivarium but I don't know if it would be big enough.
Btw, I keep Brown Anoles and Green Anoles together with no problems, they sit together alot of the time, whilst basking ect.


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## DeanThorpe

wow..IN THE WILD..the browns kick the crap out of the greens...so thats quite an unusual thing.


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## matt020593

Lol yeah apparently they've practically taken over Florida. You can see why though, mine are much meatier and better built than the greens. They get on fine though.


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## basky

ive heard of loads of ppl keeping rough greens with anoles, philip de vosjoli wrote about it in his books. ive always wanted to do it but most roughs are WC


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## arthur cooke

Hi all, I will try and do some pics next week.
If the anoles are startled, they freeze and drop to the ground. Anoles might meet large invertebrates when they are digging to bury eggs.
Female anoles get along OK but males fight, altho to us their dewlaps appear to be a different colour, I think that to the anoles they are the same, anoles see using uv. The females must look different because I've never seen a green anole trying to mate with a brown or vice a versa.
The rough greens simply ignore all the rest, when they hunt they will only go for insects. They aren't very efficient hunters, they have to get themselves exactly into position so that they can grab the cricket either head or tail first and they take so long to do it that most insects escape. So four out of five strikes fail.
A setup like mine is not as difficult as it might sound but I wouldn't think it's the kind of thing that a novice should try and it can't be done overnight. I would spend weeks observing a new group of animals and quarantine is essential to make sure that only healthy animals go in. In a way it's a bit like building several vivs in one.
Make sure that when you put crickets or locusts in, that you don't put them on the ground but high up and that way you get them in all the levels. So all the animals get a chance to eat.
My first real attempt was in a viv 5ft long by 4ft high by 3ft deep and in it I kept green anoles, Asian long tails, a pair of peacock day geckos, hermit land crabs. giant millies. 
I think for a serious attempt 4 ft is probably a bit on the small side, I found that I couldn't get a deep enough substrate. You need at least 12 inches if the plants are to grow, also the hermies need to be able to bury themselves to moult.
cheers arthur


----------



## DeanThorpe

Hi.
I dont quite get what you are saying about the anole's dewlaps and seeing in Uv...

I believe a green anole can distinguish a green from a brown by the way it looks fairly easily...just with standard eyesight as we can.
From there im sure theres scent and prolly what we would see and think its the "aura" infa red to an extent if thats what you mean [like snakes..]but thats not true as far as i know...only in sinbad films.


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## arthur cooke

Hi Dean, as far as I know, some lizards need uv to be able to see properly.
This is from Melissa Kaplins research.

The Other Ultraviolet
Most discussions of ultraviolet wavelengths address UVB. There is, however, another segment in the ultraviolet spectrum that is also critically important. UVA (320-400 NM) is the range in which reptiles, and many other animals, can see. What looks like a faintly red-orange anole dewlap to us is a bright, fiery red beacon to another anole. That pretty blue tongue in a blue-tongue skink's mouth is bright fluorescent pink to another blue-tongue skink. Reptiles also have more color receptors in their eyes and so are able to better discriminate colors than are humans.

While all senses play an important role to reptiles, vision is probably one of the most versatile. The wavelengths they are able to perceive play roles in color perception which in turn affects appetite. Reds are redder, greens greener, yellows yellower. Transformed, then, is the rather bland, largely monotonous pile of greens, vegetables and fruits. For a reluctant feeder, the presence or absence of UVA may mean the difference between feeding, weight gain and growth, or malnutrition (due to chronic starvation) and stunted development.

Natural behaviours, too, may be stimulated by UVA. From thermoregulatory triggers that tell the reptile when to bask, feed, and find a sleeping spot for the night, to cues triggering onset of hormonal changes that kick off the breeding season, to tracking and identifying conspecifics in the environment (much like way a dog can learn about an interloper from smelling urine, many reptiles leave - and can read - UV sensitive trails or markers in their environment). Denying reptiles UVA would be like going through life with only one eye. You could certainly see and function, but you would be missing much of the depth and complexity of your environment. To a reptile, that depth and complexity makes up for the lack of spoken communication and, in many cases, very limited stereo (binocular) vision. To deny them UVA is to reduce their ability to effectively interact with their environment and with other animals in their environment, which in turn leads to chronic low levels of stress.

Hope this helps.
cheers arthur


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## arthur cooke

Another bit here about snakes and UVA.

UVA Lighting
Snakes and amphibians will benefit from UVA lighting. UVA is in the visible range, and is responsible for normal behaviors such as feeding, diurnal movement, mating etc. Why UVA? Many species of snake are active during the day and are stimulated to be more active by UVA light. Examples are snakes such as indigos, racers, tiger rat snakes, pine snakes, and bull snakes. This type of lighting simulates sunlight without providing UV-B light. The benefit is increased activity, appetite and improved breeding success. These benefits are a result of improved hormonal cycles associated with daily light cycles. Full spectrum light also improves the display quality as colours are much more vibrant and natural.

cheers arthur


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## DeanThorpe

oh, i think thats going pretty deep into basically what uva light which all natural sinlight and uv tubes/bulbs actually do for the rep, but I understand that a reptile kept under just unatural white light wont stimulate them like uva does.
"uva promotes natural behaviour" is the quote usually used.
I think its just that like us, we dont see aswell or feel as good under bland lighting.

I was going to say uva is in the visible range so obviously bright light making the reps see and feel better is kind of obvious...then i remembered that all uv is not visible which is why its called uv...or soemthing, now im just confused lol
Interesting extract as always from miss kaplans site but as is often the case i find, not entirely proven or particularly easy to follow.


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## arthur cooke

we see a flower as yellow, but a bee see that flower under ultra violet as purple with a red centre, we see the dewlaps of green anoles as red but under uv that might look different, could be the same as the brown anoles.
when green and brown anoles meet they display and do all the same things that they would do as if it was a member of the same species but they don't do this to skinks or long tailed grass lizards or day geckos. I feel that it is something to do with the dewlap. 
Only a theory that could be way out.
cheers arthur


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## DeanThorpe

I suppose so, the dewlaps are designed for display whether it be to attract a mate or to frighten off another male.
If all lizards do see colours more vibrantly and indeed as more variety and intensity of collours than we do i believe they see that whatever lighting they are under...however im happy to believe uva light which is just [but only just] out of our visible spectrum brings those out.
erm...If you were to take LSD... or various other drugs yourl find the reaction on our brain and optics is pretty much the same...however... i dont know if that wors better outside under natural uva from sunlight or not.
Im too old and settled to give it a go and find out to be honest lol


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## zukomonitor

ive just read this whole thread, what a great read!! imformative, funny and very interesting!!


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## arthur cooke

Hi Dean, I'll get the hooker pipe out then, ha ha ha.
cheers arthur


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## xxMrsxxGavxx

hi i agree basky, i have a very young female spiny tailed iguana in with my beardies and they get on great, when she first went in she was really skitty, but now shes absolutely fine, i can go in and pick her up without any trouble. if i didnt Know any better id say that she has learnt from the beardies as they are placid (like most beardies) i dont think mixing species is a bad thing but i think it should only be done if your experienced and know what your doing. obviously when she gets bigger i wil take her out of the beardies viv.


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## bikemadbaz

*mixing*

Thanks that has made things a lot more clear for me.:notworthy:


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## arthur cooke

Lovely animals. I think that as animals get larger there are more difficulties.
That would be a challenge, a desert viv. I've been thinking about this but as yet have not come up with any ideas. I remember a big discussion on this, when the naturalistic vivarium forum first started. One big problem was how to get microbes in the sand to break down Lizard waste. If not, what in a desert would scavenge on it. There aren't that many plants that you could use either.
cheers arthur


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## DeanThorpe

xxMrsxxGavxx said:


> hi i agree basky, i have a very young female spiny tailed iguana in with my beardies and they get on great, when she first went in she was really skitty, but now shes absolutely fine, i can go in and pick her up without any trouble. if i didnt Know any better id say that she has learnt from the beardies as they are placid (like most beardies) i dont think mixing species is a bad thing but i think it should only be done if your experienced and know what your doing. obviously when she gets bigger i wil take her out of the beardies viv.


what is the latin name of your iguana mate?
having a hard time thinking what species liek a desert enviroment..


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## jaykickboxer

*mixed*

ive seen loads of mixed viv for example london zoo,beever world and a few shops has loads obviously it aint always ok but under certain instance its okay just depands on theanimals and enviroment


----------



## cococrazy

*?????lol?????*

ITS TO MUCH WORDS I CANT READ IT LOL 
COCOCRAZY
X

________________OWNER OF:___________________
1 ADULT COMMON CORN (CHECKERS)
1 BABY/JUVI. BEAUTIFUL SNOW CORN (CRYSTAL)
1 BLACK LABRADOR (BARNEY)
1 SPRINGER SPANIEL (BUSTER)
1 BLACK CAT (SUZIE)
1 ANOYING BROTHER


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## Art_Gecko101

I'd just like to add to this thread, i went to Paignton zoo a week or so ago, and i was horrified by the reptile house. They had a tokay gecko in with 2 green Anacondas, and again in the Reticulated python house! They had other gecko and frog species in with day geckos, which are very fragile as it is so i dont understand how they can avoid the day geckos skin getting damaged. It shocked me and i wondered if anyone can think of a reason anyone would put geckos i with condas! Just goes to show that just because zoos do it, doesnt mean its sensible!


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## Matt Harris

Art_Gecko101 said:


> I'd just like to add to this thread, i went to Paignton zoo a week or so ago, and i was horrified by the reptile house. They had a tokay gecko in with 2 green Anacondas, and again in the Reticulated python house! They had other gecko and frog species in with day geckos, which are very fragile as it is so i dont understand how they can avoid the day geckos skin getting damaged. It shocked me and i wondered if anyone can think of a reason anyone would put geckos i with condas! Just goes to show that just because zoos do it, doesnt mean its sensible!


 Rather than moan about it anonymously on a forum, why didn't you strap on a pair and go and ask the keepers about it? It may have been the case that they have lived this way quite happily for many years. Besides, an anaconda would have virtually no interaction with a tokay, which was probably in there to keep the cockroaches down. 

At Colwyn Bay (ok admittedly not the best zoo in the world) had adult snapping turtles in with their retics for many years with no problems; the retics bred so they couldn't have been too unhappy.

We had tokays in most of our enclosures and running free throughout the reptile house (to mop up cockroaches and escaped crickets etc) without any problems.

Just because there is a hysteria against mixing species on this and other forums, doesn't mean it cannot be done; I think you'll find most zoos have some mixed exhibits. If you keep an open mind on these things and ask questions rather than regurgitate something you have read online, but have no experience of yourself, then you might just learn something new.


----------



## Art_Gecko101

1st off, where do you think you have the right to talk to me like that, you know nothing about me, nor my experiences so i'd appreciate it if you kept your 'tone' to yourself. secondly, if there had actually been any staff around i would have asked them why yes. But i was there for a short visit with friends and didnt think they'd appreciate me tracking down staff to quiz them. end of.

If you read my original post, as it doesnt seem you have done from your tone, you will infact see that i am not 'closed minded' on the topic, but was requested and felt it important to post a thread based on the actual scientific facts about why mixing species does not work in *'many cases'*. I have seen so so many people unsuccessfully try and mix herptiles on the say so of 1 shopkeeper or selfimportant forum member who did it successfully for a month and thought they were god. so the reasons i explained in my OP are based on fact, not rumour. None of the information from the OP was 'regurgitated from online material'. 

Lastly, thankyou for clearing up the point about cockroaches for me. If you'll actually read the post you quoted from me, you will see i was actually asking if there was a reason for that mix that anyone could think of, and you provided one. I still do not agree with it, but think that freeroaming geckos would provide a good method of 'clear up' in a reptile house like theirs (which was nicely done with tropical plants etc, all i didnt like was that i felt some of the exhibits were a little odd w.r.t mixes of species and sometimes a little small). I will add however that the tokay certainly didnt look happy, it was in stressed colouration huddled in the top corner as far from the conda as it was possible to get. The exhibit was certainly not large enough that the gecko could get space from the conda had it decided it was lunch


----------



## Matt Harris

Art_Gecko101 said:


> 1st off, where do you think you have the right to talk to me like that, you know nothing about me, nor my experiences so i'd appreciate it if you kept your 'tone' to yourself. secondly, if there had actually been any staff around i would have asked them why yes. But i was there for a short visit with friends and didnt think they'd appreciate me tracking down staff to quiz them. end of.


You could have written a letter, as quickly as you have written these posts; or 'phoned up and talked about it the next day when you were home. Answering queries like this is part of any zookeeper's duties.

Their response as to why the Tokay was in with the Anaconda would have been of interest to all of us.

If you have a problem with a zoo, petshop or other collection, and can't discuss your issue with the relevant keeper, then you shouldn't slag them off anonymously on an internet forum. End of.


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## Art_Gecko101

Do you work for paignton or something? drop it. end of.


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## DeanThorpe

Matt Harris...
Art gecko said she dissproved and asked others ideas on why they might mix in the way described.. that is perfectly fair.

And using tokays to mop up left over roaches is not actually a good reason to do it in regards to the animals safety and well being... more a selfish use of a lizard as a utility.

This is a free forum, this thread in particular, a disscussion on mixing species where views are welcome, if you dont like it...leave.
End of.


----------



## Philcw

DeanThorpe said:


> Matt Harris...
> Art gecko said she dissproved and asked others ideas on why they might mix in the way described.. that is perfectly fair.
> 
> And using tokays to mop up left over roaches is not actually a good reason to do it in regards to the animals safety and well being... more a selfish use of a lizard as a utility.
> 
> This is a free forum, this thread in particular, a disscussion on mixing species where views are welcome, if you dont like it...leave.
> End of.


Well Said dean : victory:



Phil


----------



## Matt Harris

DeanThorpe said:


> Matt Harris...
> Art gecko said she dissproved and asked others ideas on why they might mix in the way described.. that is perfectly fair.
> 
> And using tokays to mop up left over roaches is not actually a good reason to do it in regards to the animals safety and well being... more a selfish use of a lizard as a utility.
> 
> This is a free forum, this thread in particular, a disscussion on mixing species where views are welcome, if you dont like it...leave.
> End of.


...and my view is that if you haven't got the courage to ask a keeper why he/she's mixing species, then it's just cowardly to moan about it anonymously on an internet forum.

Besides, in what way does the set-up mentioned conflict with animals' safety and wellbeing? There will be virtually no interation between the two.

As you say, this is a free forum, I won't be told to 'drop it' or 'leave'.


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## Art_Gecko101

How can you really believe that having to share a viv with a fully grown anaconda wouldnt be stressful to an animal a fraction of its size and on the prey list! its like housing a mouse with a retic.


----------



## DeanThorpe

Matt Harris said:


> ...and my view is that if you haven't got the courage to ask a keeper why he/she's mixing species, then it's just cowardly to moan about it anonymously on an internet forum.
> 
> Besides, in what way does the set-up mentioned conflict with animals' safety and wellbeing? There will be virtually no interation between the two.
> 
> As you say, this is a free forum, I won't be told to 'drop it' or 'leave'.


i didnt mean drop it, i meant accept its ok for art gecko to ask what we think without having asked the ppl at the zoo.

the snake could eat the gecko...so its not in the geckos best interest to be with the snake.. is that not clear?


----------



## Matt Harris

DeanThorpe said:


> i didnt mean drop it, i meant accept its ok for art gecko to ask what we think without having asked the ppl at the zoo.
> 
> the snake could eat the gecko...so its not in the geckos best interest to be with the snake.. is that not clear?


Anacondas (terrestrial/semi-aquatic) feeding on geckoes (arboreal), that's a new one one me, but you live and learn.

I'll make it easy for you, give Rod Keen / Kate Clegg a ring on 01803 697500 and ask them if they've had any problems with the Tokays in with the Anacondas/retics. While you're at it, ask for their reaction to your comment "just because zoos do it, doesn't make it sensible". 

Big tip; if you wouldn't say it to someone's face, or over the 'phone, then you probably shouldn't say it at all.


----------



## Art_Gecko101

what i meant by that comment specifically Matt is that just because Zoos do it doesnt mean that private keepers should try it. Do you really advocate keeping tokays and condas?
is that a private number or one for the zoo department? Shall i assume that you do have something to do with paignton zoo then and so that is why you seem to have taken such offense at my queries with their setups?

I'm going to leave this now, because i wrote this thread for the point of giving information and i do not want it deteriorating into argument as you seem intent on doing.


----------



## Matt Harris

Art_Gecko101 said:


> what i meant by that comment specifically Matt is that just because Zoos do it doesnt mean that private keepers should try it. Do you really advocate keeping tokays and condas?
> is that a private number or one for the zoo department? Shall i assume that you do have something to do with paignton zoo then and so that is why you seem to have taken such offense at my queries with their setups?
> 
> I'm going to leave this now, because i wrote this thread for the point of giving information and i do not want it deteriorating into argument as you seem intent on doing.


It's the number for reception - just ask to speak to one of the reptile keepers.

I have no involvement with Paignton but I have worked in Zoos in the past, and am well used to people who have visited, and then subsequently criticised our husbandry in the media. It is intensely frustrating when such people have criticisms which could so easily have been cleared up with a chat or a 'phone call.

No keeper will pretend to know it all, and all bar perhaps some of the 'old school' will be more than willing to learn something new, but I think you'll find most of them are pretty good at their jobs and will be able to respond to an intelligent query.

I take no offence with your queries, but those queries should have been directed to the keeper(s). There is no excuse not to do so.

If you had made a thread comment along the lines of "I spoke to the head of reptiles at Paignton the other day and asked why he had tokays in with his 'condas and he explained that.....etc", then that would have been an interesting and useful posting.

If you are genuinely concerned about the husbandry of their animals, give the guy a ring and see what he has to say - what have you got to lose?


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## Art_Gecko101

I may well give them a call then i just wanted to check it wasnt a private number as they might find it a little rude me calling them on a private line! I understand what you are saying, but i purposefully didnt start a thread saying something like Paignton is keeping their animals wrong because i know that'd be stupid and pointless. I simply made the original comments on the mix if species i mentioned as i couldnt find a keeper to ask when i was there, and it seemed like a pretty inappropriate mix to me.


----------



## DeanThorpe

Matt Harris said:


> Anacondas (terrestrial/semi-aquatic) feeding on geckoes (arboreal), that's a new one one me, but you live and learn.
> 
> I'll make it easy for you, give Rod Keen / Kate Clegg a ring on 01803 697500 and ask them if they've had any problems with the Tokays in with the Anacondas/retics. While you're at it, ask for their reaction to your comment "just because zoos do it, doesn't make it sensible".
> 
> Big tip; if you wouldn't say it to someone's face, or over the 'phone, then you probably shouldn't say it at all.


it wasnt me that said it dumbo.
in answer to your *"Anacondas (terrestrial/semi-aquatic) feeding on geckoes (arboreal)that's a new one one me, but you live and learn." *
I dont even need to point out the flaw in your logic do I?
I laugh at you now for you are clearly a fool....how high is the enclosure they are in? high enough for an anaconda and/or rectic to be unable to get the gecko?? dont be daft.


what was the reason for the geckos being in with the snakes again?
i think you said to get the insects...that wouldnt be in a snake enclosure in the first place didnt you?
cos I see you running your mouth...but its just not making any sense...


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## Matt Harris

Dumbo, daft and fool! I'm not going to dignify your insults with further comment as you're clearly upset.

Suffice to say that ArtGecko has got my point, and I look forward to what the Paignton reptile keepers have to say.


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## murinus

a small green hatchling in a smallish viv and a gecko in there, i wouldnt agree with. BUT a large enclosure with a large green i do not see a problem whatsoever ? 

neither species will be intrested in the other and anybody that thinks a large anaconda is going to go after a gecko wants their bumps feeling :whistling2:


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## DeanThorpe

Thats true..but I dont know how large the anaconda is...
either way, why is the gecko in there?


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## vogelport

*nice one*

matt!!!: victory:


----------



## goldenboy

*mixing*

every one to there own is the answer. i dont mix and i would'nt mix but hay some do mix and if it works goodluck to them in 18 years iv never mixed my reps and never will so great thread. i like it gives the novice a clue on research befor doing anything rash good on you and hope all new to the reps will do research first


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## bikemadbaz

*mixing.*

Good call I guess. other day shop told me it would be ok to mix an anole they were selling, with my two leos. very tempted at the time, now I think I will give it a miss. rather have two happy leos than three unhappy reps.


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## Cyberlizard

It's a big subject. As a rule I would avoid keeping different species together unless the following are known:

(1) A recognised authority (eg published author, maybe not TFH!) has reported success with the relevant species in the same tank;
(2) Both are unlikely to interact much, eg a totally aquatic frog such as _Xenopus_ and a day gecko.
(3) or both are from the same region with same habitat preferences
(4) both are of a size, temperament and diet where neither is likely to eat the other (eg Green Iguana and Basilisk).

Also the individuals should be monitored even if theoretically compatible, as I find the character of individual lizards can vary - and that is not a case of anthromorphic wishful thinking!

Obviously size of terrarium is also very important.


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## ritchie.69

interesting very interesting..................but still no further forward :whistling2:


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## matt020593

An Anole with Leos!? 
WTF!? I cannot see how that would work at all.
That shop needs sorting out!


Matt


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## gesh gecko

matt020593 said:


> An Anole with Leos!?
> WTF!? I cannot see how that would work at all.
> That shop needs sorting out!
> 
> 
> Matt


 tell me about it i no someone who temp kept an iggy with 3 red-tailed boas!!!!! her excuse was that they have been fed so they won't eat it!


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## Geek

Well I just want to ask a real quick question;

Would all geckos have a certain.. Chemistry that other reptiles wouldn't with each other if mixed because they're Geckos? Like say you mix two geckos, would they have a better chemistry than another two reptiles mixed together that aren't Geckos?

Matt


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## Grond

Depends on the species. Some Gecko species are very closely relate whilst others aren't!


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## Pliskens_Chains

very good thread


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## mangotango

must admit mixing my cricket collection with my bearded dragons was a complete disaster, I thought it would be fine they both like heat and lettice, just dont do it ok.................


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## bug man

*xs*

I mix smoe on mine just see there condisions in temp and the way they recact with each other


----------



## LEOPARD GECKO CRAZY

hi is enyone going to the maidstone reptile show in august because i would like to know if enyone know enyone who is selling leopard geckos


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## matt020593

I your posting in the wrong place, try making a thread in this section or classifieds


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## Sleepybear

mangotango said:


> must admit mixing my cricket collection with my bearded dragons was a complete disaster, I thought it would be fine they both like heat and lettice, just dont do it ok.................


 
Ha ha well done Mango Tango a bit of humour to ease the tension.:lol2:

Great sticky, some good information, some heated arguments!!! 

Matt Harris chill out a bit hun! People should be able to ask questions in a forum without having someone jump down their throat we are all here because we care about animals and want to learn more from other people's experience, we want other peoples advice not a bollocking! 

I'd love to see pics of that walk in viv/conservatory, wish I had the room! 
:2thumb:

I'd love to keep two of the same species together (hognose) but even thats not advisable in some cases! Never mind, better safe than sorry hey?


----------



## grimble

so ...the jury is still out on that one then ,fancy getting al grumpy over it


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## Matt Harris

Sleepybear said:


> Matt Harris chill out a bit hun! People should be able to ask questions in a forum without having someone jump down their throat we are all here because we care about animals and want to learn more from other people's experience, we want other peoples advice not a bollocking!


 
1. My last posting on this thread was in February
2. Don't tell me how to behave
3. I'm not your 'hun', or anything else for that matter


----------



## Blaptica

I keep my reptiles mostly in very large enclosures. I almost always mix species rather than keep them on their own (where I think its appropriate). There are lots of potential pitfalls of course, if you don't do your research first to find out that species have similiar needs, and don't quarantine all animals for months before you introduce them into a "colony" then you are asking for problems. Of course for complete safety you could keep all reptiles individually. Then there is a reduced risk of disease transmission. But then that is also an arguement for keepers only keeping one animal because the keeper can always spread diseases between different reptiles (if you forget to wash hands between handling different animals for example) even if they are not housed together. Also it is quite easy for diseases to be transmitted between cages via mites, crickets, cockroaches, flies .. need I go on ?

It is worth remembering that many species are territorial and are easily stressed by others of the SAME species or genus. So I think it is worth remembering that when you keep different species together quite often they quickly ignore each other. Where as members of the same species in the same tank may stress each other out in ways sometimes too subtle for us to realize. Bearded dragons are not meant to be forced to live permanently no more than 4ft away from each other ! I would bet that many keepers keep several of these animals in tanks too small for the number they keep, resulting in stress for the animals concerned. But at least they are not mixing species, which is the worst crime a herpetologist can commit right ?

I would be the first to agree that generally it is a bad idea to mix species, especially in the size of vivs most keepers use. But a complete no no, I don't agree.


----------



## Sleepybear

Matt Harris said:


> 1. My last posting on this thread was in February
> 2. Don't tell me how to behave
> 3. I'm not your 'hun', or anything else for that matter


 
Matt I was trying to be friendly like everyone else here. I'm sorry if you were offended by that but then you seem to get offended by everyone so I wont lose sleep over it. 

Its a good thread that people want info on, no need to get nasty.


----------



## Liam17

May I join in the discussion?

The fact people are getting angry, grumpy and darn right nasty on here is absurd! Its a forum devised for people to share experiences, opinions and advice.

As you can see above I have highlighted share and opinions because the forum was devised to allow people to SHARE OPINIONS not push them on to one another. People will have different opinions and will always have discrepencies with how they keep animals. HOWEVER.

This does not mean any one way is the correct way, some people mix reptiles some people dont, some agree, some disagree. There are a vast number of animals of all species that hapily live together if not thrive from being together. And there are some that well dont.

Its quite upsetting to see the sheer amount of comotion cause by one person saying 'I keep my reptiles together and mix species'. They did not asked to be slated and become a target for slander. They were simply sharing their opinion. If you disagree with the way some one does something by all means tell them, but dont make a big deal out of it everyone is different. So please keep issues like this under controll.

Its a forum, and people should NOT get angry about it, its only text afterall

.......................................................................
Sorry if this has upset anyone. :2thumb:


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## Sleepybear

My point exactly Liam17, thankyou, well said.


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## blackdragon

i think its just two different concepts of keeping animals, the avarage rep keeper at home will have lernt what they know from books care sheets and the word of other experienced keepers and keep one rep in one viv on a safe substraight under equipment you can buy in shops, a zoo keeper on the other hand would use what they lern in collage and from the study of the animals in the wild and then have a huge budget to recreate that for a zoo display i doubt they would come back from years of study of an animal in the wild and then say ok we will keep this on newspaper and a heat mat. at the end of the day we do what we do and they do what they do both ways are probably as safe for the animal in question but are just totaly different


----------



## GlasgowGecko

Art_Gecko101 said:


> All animal species in the world carry unique bacteria and protozoans that aid different processes to us, and in return they cause us no harm and we allow them to use the body of its host as protection and habitat. This process is called symbiosis. When 2 species come into close contact (as would happen in a vivarium) the symbionts from 1 species will get passed onto the other, and this may cause the 2nd species to become ill. What is harmless and healthy for 1 species is not for another. With WC animals, these problems are exacerbated, as you not only have to deal with symbionts, but parasites and illnesses that the other species will not be resistant to as they would not have been naturally exposed to them.


I feel this paragraph is a little misleading, although in essence the points it makes are true.
When you mention species wide resistance to a number of potential parasitic organisms (bacteria, symbionts etc...) this can be true, but the same can be said for specific populations, in fact there is much stronger argument for resistance at the level of population than at the level of species. So what does this mean then? Well each distinct wild population in a given territory would have specialist resistances and possibly specialist symbionts. Extrapolate this to the captive environment and the result is a large disparity in resistance/ parasite burden WITHIN species. Does this then mean that it is not suitable to mix the same species from different areas or breeders?

Andy


----------



## strictly_scales

Hi...

New here, not new to keeping reptiles. And, shock horror, I specialise in mixed community Vivaria. I also specialise in community fishtanks- thats where it all started. To date, I have 3 mixed community set-up's.

Set-up one: Sitting room. 0.1 Argus Monitor, 1.0 Argentine Black/White Tegu. Being the biggest 2, they are housed seperately from everything else, and roam the entire sitting room. They have an open viv with UV, basking spot, water dish and hides, measuring 4x2x2. Initially it was just the Argus, a re-home that came to me in a terrible state, so introducing the Tegu was the problem. He's shorter but bulkier. I neutralised the communal area by mixing substrates and articles from both lizards. I completely cleared the sitting room. I released the Tegu. I have had no problems. Argus was put out at first, but the 2 now bask and feed together, and help eachother trap locusts.

Set-up 2: Temporary accomodation. 1.1 Bearded Dragon, 1 Blue Tongued Skink. No problem at all. 

Set-up 3: Mega-viv. This one was built specifically to house multiple species. Currently it houses a juvenile Bosc Monitor, adult Plated Lizard, and 4 adult Beardies. The Bosc hunts with the female Beardies, and is more active than he ever was on his own. The Plated and Bosc sleep together in the same hide, with the Plated guarding the hide and protecting the Bosc. I've even seen the male Dragon share prey with the Bosc with no conflict. Everything is in perfect health- I have had several clutches from this set-up. Obviously the Bosc is only a temporary inhabitant, but in the past my tortoise and my blue tongued skink have co-inhabited with the Beadies and Plated.

Here are the rules:

Provide more than enough space, hides, basking areas, feeding dishes, water dishes etc...
Research the specific requirements of each and every single species before you even consider putting them together, and if in doubt, don't.
Ensure all animals have been suitably quarantined and treated before hand.
Observe the enclosure frequently, especially during the first week.
Remember, conflict is a final resort in any species, and any animal will initially display at something deemed as a competitor until it realises it is no competition.
Finally, be fully prepared to get vinvolved if things turn ugly, which they rarely do. The worst I have ever got from mixing species is a savage bite from my Argus 2 days after introducing the Tegu. Shes fine with me now. Her way of telling me shes the boss.


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## robbo101

Bay have you mixed speices together?


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## MarshallDavies

*.*

why is everyone always arguing?


----------



## Vyper

Hi, i just want to ask, and i don't have time to read  Can i keep Eublepharis Macularis in the same terrarium with tarentola Mauretanica small form? 

Thanks, Martin


----------



## Lex

Hi there are two very seperate schools of thought on mixing, both have some very valid points and neither I feel should be dismissed out of hand, there is another thread I started outlining the parameters you should follow if you are to make this work, but like i said, read both the threads, then make an educated descision, somethings really dont do well as play mates. 
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/199649-ehem-little-hush-now-could.html


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## tonfifty

*mixing*

i am new to keeping lizards and found your info helpful thank you


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## robbo101

i just think its down to experience and luck really i have always wanted to mix but never really took the risk and i dont think i will


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## jaguarfold

didnt want to srart a war just i have a white spot and a gargoile in together and they r fine just asking if a a flying gecko would go with them :bash:


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## Tomato Frog

*Careful consideration works*

Hi everyone,

I have to agree that most of the time if you are trying to maintain a certain species in the best possible conditions for breeding or display then it is easier to cater for just their particular needs in one enclosure. That said, there are situations where mixing species of reptile and/or amphibian does work.

Space is an important consideration, and stress induced lactic acid build up is a killer in herps. Ensuring that all of the species present have enough space to exhibit normal behaviour is essential!

I have maintained some mixed species exhibits with great success in the past, but have ALWAYS ensured that the organisms present come from the same bio-geographical range. They do not have to occupy the same niche in the wild (indeed this can cause stress as they compete for the exact same resources), but rather have been exposed to similar biological stresses (bacteria, fungi, etc) and so do not bring potential problems with them that could affect their new co-habitants adversly. Even captive bred individuals can still carry microbes from their distant wild caught relatives, be warned!!

Those who are willing to put in the time to reaserch where their herps share the same range and have the space to provide a suitable recreation of the natural environmental conditions will do well with mixing species. If you plan to 'throw' certain species together to save space, then I'm affraid that in the long term things will probably turn out for the worst.

Cheers,

PJ


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## gecko101

ok....


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## arthur cooke

Hi, I've kept mixed species vivs for about 25 or so years.
A couple of points I'd like to make, stress is not all bad,reptiles will meet stress in the wild and have a means of coping with it and low levels will help keep the reptile alert and behave like it would in the wild.
Once you have reptiles in the same house it would be almost impossible to stop bacteria, viruses etc moving from one reptile to another and if you for example buy from a pet shop, then this may have happened already.
The larger the viv, the more micro environments will be produced and it is fairly easy to produce micro environments in a large viv,some areas wetter, hotter, cooler etc.
It's an advantage to have reptiles that are active at different times as this means they aren't all hunting, basking at the same time.
Mixed vivs need not contain only reptiles, in mine I would keep land hermit crabs,giant millies and fruit beetles and worms, the beetle grubs are good food when small and like worms will help get rid of food waste and small amounts of reptile waste/poo.
In my last viv I also kept a pair of tiny finches which did very well and bred.
Mixed vivs need a great deal of extra thought and planning, especialy if they are also naturalistic with plants etc.
My last viv was 8ft x 8ft x 3ft and was lit by a 400w HPS, a 4ft florescent and 2 100w mercury vapour lamps, heating was underground soil heaters x 2 and whatever the lights produced.
Hope that was a bit helpful.
cheers arthur


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## I Love Reptiles

Not sure about other species, but i heard that green iguanas can make great lodgers for large tortoises.


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## matt020593

Hey Arthur did you ever get pics of that enclosure? I remember we talked about it earlier in this thread, it sounded amazing.


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## donstapley

just a worrying thought......on other parts of this forum certain members are recommending that tortoise keepers can keep bearded dragons in with them. Is it just me or is there a serious problem with this, and another was saying that it was a good idea to keep a tortoise in with guinea pigs. To me that has bad news written all over it. Obviously some have not yet come across this thread?


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## Serious D

I dont agree with mixing species but in some cases its not so bad, but i went to a reptile shop a few months ago and every thing was mixed, there were iggys, chineese water dragons,australian water dragons, beardys and frilly all in one big viv and next to it was a tank with boas, ground and arboreal, pythons such as royals burms and retics and adult corns and to top it off he had a smaller viv with green racer snakes mixed with anoels. i was discusted and walked out.


----------



## schwinger2k9

omg this thread has took up an hour of my time to read and i love how all you forum people just love to get along. haha

was a good read tho alot of views.

i personaly won't be mixing any species, i just don't get down like that, but each to there own like a few people have said people will make up there own minds

just out of interest does anyone have any pics of mixes? and what are they mixed with?

kevin


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## Scarlet_Rain

*Hehe another thread on this huh? i agree with basky and arthur defo. but i also think it shouldnt be done by people who really dont have a clue, unfortunatly this applies to most people who seriously think they do "have a clue" and hence this is why other people seem to think its wrong because it is being practiced wrong.

Research research research, get to know where your animals come from, diets, behaviours, requirements, habitat, solitary or community animals?

then research more...
then OBSERVE

only when you are really confident and certain that it will work give it a try, speak to others who have kept communities also.

it can be done, we have 3 community vivs, all animals are absolutly fine, well and no fighting has occured once.

Also read the signs, we had a blue tongue in with a baby bosc and the skink kept trying to escape, so we removed the bosc, skink was happy then.

same happened with our argus and tegu, they had a whole room to themselves with plenty of roaming space but the argus was having none of it, kept trying to escape and didnt ever really warm to him. so we split them up. you have to be so care full most definatly, but there are lots of people who care so much for their animals - who dont just keep a lizard feed it3 times a week and thats that. im talking about dedicated owners who have the time to monitor, keep records and understand more than basic herpetology.
only these types of people should be experimenting 

thanks.*


----------



## Scarlet_Rain

Serious D said:


> I dont agree with mixing species but in some cases its not so bad, but i went to a reptile shop a few months ago and every thing was mixed, there were iggys, chineese water dragons,australian water dragons, beardys and frilly all in one big viv and next to it was a tank with boas, ground and arboreal, pythons such as royals burms and retics and adult corns and to top it off he had a smaller viv with green racer snakes mixed with anoels. i was discusted and walked out.


Dude - this is exactly how NOT to do it  I would have walked out also or probably voiced my opinion being that im feisty like that


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## cato4eva

*my girls*

my tortoise and water dragon live together and they great together they have a huge tank and both have been better since they moved in together my water dragon now will actually eat veg cos she saw tortoise doing it there is only 1 problem and that is on odd time the water dragon will sit in water dish even tho she has a huge seperate tub ppl have different ideas and i guess its up to u some things u just wudnt mix but others can be fine


----------



## gecko lover

ok im really glad that somone put sumin like this just to sum it up once and for all .becuse all the arguing about it is gettin really starting to get to me so i think we should just say a big thank u to who ever put the info there and STOP arguing


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## STReptiles

basky said:


> yeah fair enough but you just have to remember loads of people have successfully mixed so you can't say its not right to do if people have done it for many years. (lets no start arguing again :smile


mixings different if you have a greenhouse sized viv but people always do it in things like exo-terras with things like tokays and cresties or leos:devil:
tiits!!


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## Nic B-C

ive got tokays in with golden geckos and seem absolutely fine. i did debate it but found several people have alredy done this combination before fine.

im glad i have as the tokays were being bullied in yet another mixed viv....not by other species but by more tokays.

in this case there were 5 tokays and a CWD all getting along fine althought here was a dominant male tokay and these two werent happy.

Now the tokays and golden seemed to have split into two pairs one of each kind!

Coast to coast mix as well, theres the central column viv has at least five species in together, anoles and cresteies are two of them i believe although dont hold me on that one.


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## Nic B-C

The cresties and whites is an interesting one as I do like whites and have a large male in a nice big viv, the only problem I cuold see on the combination would be igf I bred the cresties and left eggs in as im sure the whites would like a hatchling


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## kickboxinmom

*Mixing, (sorry)*

I am new to this site so please be patient! I have just been reading about the mixing and non-mixing of animals. I'm a little frightened as the local reptile place has advised me it's fine to keep the baby bearded dragon and the baby collared lizard together. They had it displayed on their tanks too. Is it ok or not? They also said to feed them both on mealworms but I've since heard that can be dangerous for a beardy? They are in a fairly large viv now. I must admit I am more experienced with snakes but have always wanted lizards. Can someone who knows what they're talking about advise me as I'm not confident the pet shop knows!


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## Kellybee

Collards intimidate easily. They also grow a lot slower than beardies. Therefore the beardie might be the same size now, but he wont be in a month or two. At this point you're likely to notice the collared losing weight. Collareds are quick and nimble, I've referred to them before as a bit like gerbils, they are relentless. In my opinion, the beardie will have to work hard to keep up with the collared if he wants to include bugs in his diet, because collareds are rapid, efficient hunters that will eat a LOT of crickets daily. I don't like the idea of keeping them together at all, though the husbandry requirements are very similar the collared needs a basking temperature slightly hotter than the beardie.

In terms of mealworms, the digestive systems dont much agree with the chitin shell. If I feed mealies to my youngsters I only use the white, softer skinned ones. Otherwise they either throw them up or they come out the other end looking like a whole but scrunched up mealworm. I'd feed crickets, small hoppers and veg for the beardie (in separate vivs)


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## Astritos

Awesome read.
Thank You 

Dan


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## Nic B-C

Ive been convinced about cresties and whites now but Im gonna change viv to include a pool and waterfall, has anyone else here done this and got pics please


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## freekygeeky

Nic B-C said:


> Ive been convinced about cresties and whites now but Im gonna change viv to include a pool and waterfall, has anyone else here done this and got pics please


wouldnt have a pooool
crseties dont and cant swim (i dont imagine) and most wtf come with mites etc. alot are WC


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## Nic B-C

freekygeeky said:


> wouldnt have a pooool
> crseties dont and cant swim (i dont imagine) and most wtf come with mites etc. alot are WC


What a weird answer!!!

Cresties come from rainforests and have a very similar setup to Whites treefrogs.
Any frogs would be quarantined before being palced in a viv with crestie and its very easy to get Cb ones anyway


----------



## freekygeeky

Nic B-C said:


> What a weird answer!!!
> 
> Cresties come from rainforests and have a very similar setup to Whites treefrogs.
> Any frogs would be quarantined before being palced in a viv with crestie and its very easy to get Cb ones anyway



personally i wouldnt want my crestie to drown. 
simple.


----------



## Nic B-C

why would it drown


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## freekygeeky

Nic B-C said:


> why would it drown


nevermind..cant be bothered to explain why a crestie could drown in a pool...
a human can ddrown in a matter of CM.. im sure a crestie can drown in a matter of mm...


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## Nic B-C

You can have a pool same depth as a water bowl and have a deeper sump meshed off its quite simple really, in this way you will only ever have a certain depth of water which can be set., its only there to keep a natural humidity level


----------



## Lex

The general rule of thumb for animals and their water, you measure (or estimate) the maximum height of the animals nose/mouth, when the animal is standing up (pressing up on their front legs) and you try to make this the max depth of the water. This leaves enough water for the animal to drink, and for the frogs to bathe, but also for the frogs and the cresties to wade out of the water and still breathe..
Its true that most animals can drown in a a very small amount of water, BUT its not that common, otherwise everytime an animal went for a drink or got caught in a heavy rain is would suffer from a sever case of Darwinism...
Animals get into problems when they get into water, which is out of their depth, and that they cannot get out from (smooth sides etc) and they become tired and stressed...


----------



## freekygeeky

Lex said:


> The general rule of thumb for animals and their water, you measure (or estimate) the maximum height of the animals nose/mouth, when the animal is standing up (pressing up on their front legs) and you try to make this the max depth of the water. This leaves enough water for the animal to drink, and for the frogs to bathe, but also for the frogs and the cresties to wade out of the water and still breathe..
> Its true that most animals can drown in a a very small amount of water, BUT its not that common, otherwise everytime an animal went for a drink or got caught in a heavy rain is would suffer from a sever case of Darwinism...
> Animals get into problems when they get into water, which is out of their depth, and that they cannot get out from (smooth sides etc) and they become tired and stressed...


yea thats what i mean.. and by him saying 'pooool' i except and i see in my ickle brain of mine (lol) a deepish one.
Just dont wanna see a thread saying.. my crestie died.. ther have been a couple of lizrdas/snakes drowning on here in the last few years.


----------



## Lex

freekygeeky said:


> yea thats what i mean.. and by him saying 'pooool' i except and i see in my ickle brain of mine (lol) a deepish one.
> Just dont wanna see a thread saying.. my crestie died.. ther have been a couple of lizrdas/snakes drowning on here in the last few years.


Yeah its terrible when it happens, ive seen dart frogs drown in waterbowls because the keepers believed that as frogs they could surely swim... *sigh*
But so long as you put thought into the type of bowl you use, the depth of water and even if you decide to put a whopping great log/stick leaning into the water as one might find in the wild, (this method also helps crickets escape the dreaded water trap).


----------



## freekygeeky

Lex said:


> Yeah its terrible when it happens, ive seen dart frogs drown in waterbowls because the keepers believed that as frogs they could surely swim... *sigh*
> But so long as you put thought into the type of bowl you use, the depth of water and even if you decide to put a whopping great log/stick leaning into the water as one might find in the wild, (this method also helps crickets escape the dreaded water trap).


yea.. the smelly dieing crickets.. isnt a good look.. or smell lol


----------



## Lex

freekygeeky said:


> yea.. the smelly dieing crickets.. isnt a good look.. or smell lol


especially if you have a water feature of some description... nothing more irritating than having to dismantle a well placed and hidden feature to remove the festering remains of some suicidal arthropods... gaaaar...


----------



## freekygeeky

Lex said:


> especially if you have a water feature of some description... nothing more irritating than having to dismantle a well placed and hidden feature to remove the festering remains of some suicidal arthropods... gaaaar...


ewwww


----------



## Lex

freekygeeky said:


> ewwww


you're telling me, warm running water even with a filter will have the little buggers bloating like Mr Creosote in a matter of hours *shudders* i tell you its the best dieting method ever, after fishing on of those bloaters out you dont feel like eating for a good long while...


----------



## freekygeeky

Lex said:


> you're telling me, warm running water even with a filter will have the little buggers bloating like Mr Creosote in a matter of hours *shudders* i tell you its the best dieting method ever, after fishing on of those bloaters out you dont feel like eating for a good long while...


lol i know exactly what you mean. lol


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## Lex

freekygeeky said:


> lol i know exactly what you mean. lol


Fantastic! im glad im not the only one, does this mean im not mental then? *phew*


----------



## freekygeeky

Lex said:


> Fantastic! im glad im not the only one, does this mean im not mental then? *phew*


nop.. unless we are both mental/slightly crazy?!


----------



## Lex

freekygeeky said:


> nop.. unless we are both mental/slightly crazy?!


Damn i thought i was out the woods there, curses to your slightly mental vicariously making me also slightly mental... *looks toward the sky* NoooooooooOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo


----------



## Astritos

lol This threads great.


----------



## Nic B-C

Yep nice gentle slope with sticks strategically palced as well as a noce large pebble in water 

Possible hidden sump and then feed waterfall


----------



## Astritos

Been reading some of this again and im realy interested in seeing pics of a mixed viv would be awesome to see if anyone has any pics.


----------



## Nic B-C

I would loce to see some pics of the guy whose posted a few times on his massive mix vivs, suppose would be like Zoo eco sytem enclosures


----------



## Astritos

Yeah sounds interesting would like to see also.


----------



## Nic B-C

Ive now got Tokays, golden geckos and a marble gecko all living happily together


----------



## bzakd

i have mixed with both good and bad results, i dunno if this has already been said (couldnt be botherd to read the posts :whistling2 but if considering always have a back up viv ready for the bad results


----------



## Nic B-C

Got a pair of adult Whites frogs today that had been traded in at local rep shop only thing is they are a tad bigger than i thought they would grow. Still think they will be OK with one of my adult males but made a new setup for them anyway until Ive had a rethink


----------



## arthur cooke

Hi all, I've been sorting through my video tapes with a view to uploading onto utube, so this one is from the 90s. I'm no professional with videos, so it's 7 minutes, hope it doesn't bore. I have more tapes which I hope to upload.

This is my second mixed viv and the big viv I talk about will be uploaded as soon as I can. Probably a couple of weeks.
cheers arthur.

YouTube - test1


----------



## sparkle

arthur cooke said:


> Hi all, I've been sorting through my video tapes with a view to uploading onto utube, so this one is from the 90s. I'm no professional with videos, so it's 7 minutes, hope it doesn't bore. I have more tapes which I hope to upload.
> 
> This is my second mixed viv and the big viv I talk about will be uploaded as soon as I can. Probably a couple of weeks.
> cheers arthur.
> 
> YouTube - test1


 
HI arthur can you clarify what species are being kept together and how many of each and the size of tank cheers xxxx

I find mixed species tanks fascinating and whilst i would not consider it myself i do like to learn.

I have heard some species though even by the most avid mixed-tank hobbyists should be avoided such as tokay geckos and other more aggressive species

what are your thoughts on this??

thanks for your time : victory:


----------



## Nic B-C

I have a pair of tokays a pair of goldens and a marble all in one viv and absolutely no aggression whatsover...they do snap at me if i put my hand towards them but only so they cn scuttle off


----------



## sparkle

Nic B-C said:


> I have a pair of tokays a pair of goldens and a marble all in one viv and absolutely no aggression whatsover...they do snap at me if i put my hand towards them but only so they cn scuttle off


 
are they male or female tokays nic??

cheers


----------



## Nic B-C

Nice vid likewise would be nice to know whats in there and also have some mor wider shots to se how whole setup interacts


Cheers


----------



## Nic B-C

sparkle said:


> are they male or female tokays nic??
> 
> cheers


 
Pair of females


----------



## sparkle

Nic B-C said:


> Pair of females


 
ahh ok

ive heard if theres even a male in with a female adding another female tokay can cause serious issues... perhaps as they are both females the competition isnt there with the male absent...

so that keeps it more balanced ??


----------



## arthur cooke

Hi, that viv was something like 5ft long, by 3 or 4 high and about 2 or 3 deep, difficult to remember now.
Anoles, day geckos, long tails, hermies, giant millies and as you can see lots of plants.
cheers arthur


----------



## sparkle

arthur cooke said:


> Hi, that viv was something like 5ft long, by 3 or 4 high and about 2 or 3 deep, difficult to remember now.
> Anoles, day geckos, long tails, hermies, giant millies and as you can see lots of plants.
> cheers arthur


 
thanks arthur


----------



## Nic B-C

These two tokays came from a large viv with 5 tokays a marble, chinese water dragons and something else i cant remember There was a troublesome ,ale tokay but other two were males as well and they are the tamest gecos you could ever meet have look back on tokay threads and you will see them sitting on a hand.

The goldens is a sexed pair and im not sure what marbl is possibly female


----------



## ukgeckos

I have a 7ft high, 4 ft wide 2.5 ft deep viv with 
1.1 water dragons
1.1 tokays
1.1 whites tree fogs

Im planning on adding a few other species in time but not sure what yet
I have some Phelsuma m. grandis but not sure how the'll get on with the tokays (all around the same size)
Ill get pics of the viv up soon


----------



## bzakd

that video was great i love the viv, apart from the millis lol


----------



## Aceman

*Mixing Species*

All true. An unscrupulous pet shop owner, who shall remain nameless, houses an unbelieveably diverse selection of reptiles within the same tanks. As you say it may seem acceptable in the short term but ultimately the occupants become unduly stressed.


----------



## arthur cooke

This is the second viv I did, sorry it's a bit wobberly but it's all I videod with this viv, you'll see that it's bigger, first bit is when it was a month old and the others when it was a year or two.
YouTube - Naturalistic community vivarium

Stress is frequently used as a reason for not mixing and I have to argue this point, animals evolved to cope with every day stress and finding another lizard, frog etc in their environment is every day stress, this would happen every day in the wild.
The green anole in the first viv was 8 years old when he died,A good life for a green anole.

Dense planting enables an animal to escape and hide should it feel stressed and this is natures way of alleviating stress and providing an escape route does this. No different really than providing a hide for a leo.

cheers arthur


----------



## Lizard_lass

Aceman said:


> All true. An unscrupulous pet shop owner, who shall remain nameless, houses an unbelieveably diverse selection of reptiles within the same tanks. As you say it may seem acceptable in the short term but ultimately the occupants become unduly stressed.


 
I was recently sold a Brown anole male and an unsexed house gecko. Which I was told would live together quite happilly as they had been doing in the shop. less than 3 weeks later, I only have the anole left. There were 2 basking areas, lots of hides, and plenty of food, but still the anole killed the gecko :cussing:

Having had a conversaton with the seller I have been told and I quote "thats the risk you take"

NOT what i was told when i asked the question originally.


----------



## Nic B-C

Arent brown aggresive thoguh perhaps they got details mixed up with a green anole


----------



## arthur cooke

Anoles can be aggressive among them selves but I never seen an Anole behave aggressively with another lizard. 

House geckos when full grown are much bigger than a brown Anole, was there a size difference, if the house gecko was a lot smaller then maybe the brown tried to predate it, but it would've have to have been a lot smaller.

Did you see the brown attack the gecko or did you just find it dead. If the later you might be making an assumption. Many house geckos are wild caught and it may have been ill.

The bite strength of a house gecko is quite a bit more than a brown anole so I'm surprised.

The pet shop is wrong to say that's the risk you take, because it is not. Are you sure that they are not trying to wriggle out of selling you an ill animal.

cheers arthur.


----------



## Lizard_lass

They were both of similar size (around 4"), the day before the incident we noticed the anole flaring his dewlap, and having never had lizards before (although I have kept royal pythons for 15 years) didn't really reallise what was happening. I did some research and realised this was either for mating or predatory purposes.

It was decided we would move the gecko out for its own safety, and while preparing his new home, I walked in to see the :devil: anole pounce on him from a higher branch, then stomp all over him. It was all a little mad so not sure whether there was any biting going on.

On close inspection (following his demise)the gecko had little rake marks I assume from the anoles claws, all over him.

As for the comments by the pet shop, I think they were completely wrong in selling me the two together knowing I was intending housing them together, without any words of warning from them. They knew my situation, experience, and plans. Having spoken with them again they are refusing to take on any responsibility for having given me poor advice.:bash:

I will in future (now I have discovered this amazing place) be checking on this forum for any advice I might need.:notworthy:


----------



## arthur cooke

Glad you like us.
I still wonder if the little gecko was sick, normally the gecko would come out at night and the Anole in the daytime so the gecko being out during the day makes me wonder. Also I think a healthy lizard would've made a run for it. I had a house gecko in my mixed viv and never saw him from one month to the next, I'd get a little glimpse now and then.
cheers arthur.


----------



## Nic B-C

Thats sounds like it was trying to mate it and it was weak like Arthur has said


----------



## Astritos

arthur cooke said:


> Glad you like us.
> I still wonder if the little gecko was sick, normally the gecko would come out at night and the Anole in the daytime so the gecko being out during the day makes me wonder. Also I think a healthy lizard would've made a run for it. I had a house gecko in my mixed viv and never saw him from one month to the next, I'd get a little glimpse now and then.
> cheers arthur.


Hey Arthur wondering when you next do a vid would you be able to get some inside shots? Like put the cam in there in different places to get some good close up shots of them?
Just an idea.

Dan :notworthy:


----------



## Nic B-C

Whats the species in this one please Arthur?

I see theres a snake and a few breeds of frogs only know the red eye and nice to actually see that out in theopen as well


----------



## arthur cooke

Hi Dan, I'm moving to Italy later this year so I'm closing every thing down ready to move, but I have plans to build to build my next one there and I thought I would do a step by step video, from building the actual viv right through to the plants and animals, a sort of video diary.

Hi Nic, The frogs are greys tree frog, redeye, north American green tree frog, rough green snakes, goldust day geckos, Peacock day geckos, green anoles, asian long tails, 1 rescued house gecko, fruit beetles, giant millies and some hermit land crabs.
I did at one point try some rainbow crabs, but they built a huge underground network of tunnels and ate every thing, polystyrene, the rubber lining in the pond, plant roots, I'd put a tub of crickets in and 10 minuets later the tub would disappear, dragged into their underground lair.Where it would be broken down into millions of little bits.
cheers arthur


----------



## arthur cooke

A snippet of one of the rainbow crabs, the little polystyrene waterfall took about a week before it was pulled into little bits.

YouTube - Rainbow and hermit crabs.

cheers arthur


----------



## Nic B-C

Cheers mate interesting and cant wait the new build


----------



## kevtore999

What a load of rubbish me and my ex wife managed to live with each other for a whole 3 years and i'm telling you she is a different species to me lol................me be the better of course lol


----------



## divvie_dave

Ok, now im new, so i'm preparing to get slated but my "local" pet/exotics/supply shop has what they call an "eco" tank set up. I'm not sure if its exactly the same, but its sounds pretty similar to what you guys are arguing about.

Basically its a fairly large viv which houses Electric Blue Geckos, some kind of Fruit Beetles and, some kind of tropical frog. My knowledge of frogs isn't great, so not only can i not remember what species they were, I couldn't even hazard a guess (small and light green lol). Also, there were a number of live plants in this enclosure.

My first impressions on this was that it looked amazing. I'm guessing that alot of work had gone into it to choose the right combinations of everything. But from this my opinion is that it can be done, very well, but you have to know exactly what you are doing. 

Personally, i would never house two species of reptile together. But I do think that smaller reptiles could be housed with other small species of other animals. I think size is the main issue here. If you had a whole room, you could probably go wild with some crazy things. But your average vivarium isn't going to be able to house a variety of reptile species.


----------



## arthur cooke

Hi Dave, I've been building this type of viv for some years now and yes size does make a difference but what is the average size of a viv, I don't think there is an average.
To my mind it really depends on the on the animals, for example, if you're housing tree frogs you need height, also if it's going to be planted you need height because a deeper substrate is needed for plants.
I think you're right in that there is a minimum size but what that would be, I don't know. I would think that if some one were considering a mixed viv the viv would probably be home made.
People like to add things like waterfalls, ponds, rock features and this is easier if you've designed it your self.
Earlier on in this thread I posted a video that I'd made, dunno if you've watched it, it will give you an Idea of what can be achieved.
cheers arthur.


----------



## Carlos

hey jus lettin yuu knw tht tis is gud basic guide info fr the unknown! :notworthy: n 2 say i once housed a bibron gecko n a palm gecko 2 getha in a plastic vivarium n had no problems


----------



## ginnerone

i mixed my drinks once and i had major issues the next morning but was very happy whilst doing it, 

moral of the story is, things my seem fine at the time but one day you'll more than likley wake up to an injured rep, they DO fight irespective of how calm u think they are, its in there nature to protect themselfs and gain feeding territory, i have kept reps for many many years and wouldn't trust my calmest of reps with each other.

if anyone wants to try mixing lizards i have got an 11" tokay gecko they can try it with if they want but i wouldn't get too attached to your lizard cos he's greedy :lol2:


----------



## arthur cooke

Well, some of my mixed vivs ran for more than 10 years without any problems and of course you have to be carefull about whats mixed. I think that I have proved that community vivs work.
cheers arthur


----------



## matt020593

Hey Arthur, just wondering if you could possibly give a list of all the species you have/have had in you're community vivarium and whether they're breeding or not and all that kind of stuff. I have a 4'H x 3'L x 2'W viv which I am currently in proccess of waterproofing and planting which I shall be using as a community vivarium. I'm just basically looking for as much inspiration as possible.

BTW I subscribed to your youtube channel, some great videos of your viv.


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## Murdok

gosh u lot love to argue! many good points have been made & also a very entertaining read, thanks guys !


----------



## arthur cooke

Hi Matt, was it a forest viv you were thinking of,if so then green anoles,small day geckos, both these bred, rough green snakes, have to be brumated if they are to breed. Greys tree frog, North American green tree frog, never tried to breed these as I would have had too many to cope with. Had some little brown skinks that used to run around the bottom, I think they were both males and they were given to me and I was never able to ID them.
Hermit crabs,never bred them of course, but they added interest as they were always trunderling round the viv. I did try rainbow crabs, but they were little demons, digging underground burrows, eating plant roots and generally being destructive.
Giant millipedes also added some interest but are usefull because they eat decaying vegatable matter,these bred.
In the 8ft viv I had a pair of little finches, which also bred, which was amazing to see, but they are a bit messy, lots of leaf cleaning.

I would spend lots of time observing them and I think that in the beginning it's a good Idea to do this so that you can spot problems very early.
Next year I'm hoping to build an outside viv here in Italy. Also hoping to get to the NIRM show here and build up some contacts.
Cheers arthur.


----------



## red eye

*frills & beards*

has any one kept frillys and beardies together?(saw it in the bearded dragon manual)if anyone has found this is a well balanced relationship,then how did you achieve the harmony?
one male only,male of each,temps,feeding,how big/tall is the viv?and anything else that would be relevant.
cheers


----------



## matt020593

The skinks in your video are called long tailed lizards, I am hoping to get a pair of those for mine, did you ever try fire bellied toads? Also how did you heat the bottom of the viv.
A tribute to your amazing viv...4' x 3'x 2'
















So far it contains a pair of green anoles and a pair of USA green tree frogs.


----------



## thepidgon

matt020593 said:


> The skinks in your video are called long tailed lizards, I am hoping to get a pair of those for mine, did you ever try fire bellied toads? Also how did you heat the bottom of the viv.
> A tribute to your amazing viv...4' x 3'x 2'
> image
> image
> So far it contains a pair of green anoles and a pair of USA green tree frogs.


Beautiful viv. 2 thumbs up!


----------



## arthur cooke

Hi Matt, it was a different type of skink I was talking about, little brown things, colour was a bit like a slowworm and as shiny.
That's a realy nice viv, love that tree, brilliant, when ever I'm out and about I always keep an eye out for logs like that and rocks, my familly take the P, oh dad look at that rock, s******.
I've been looking at the little Italian wall lizards out here and wondering why no one keeps them?
cheers arthur


----------



## arthur cooke

I heated the substrate with one of those undersoil cable heaters on a timer, half hour on, one hour off.
Yes I did try some fire bellies and I pulled them out because they polluted the pond, quite nasty smelling water, I can't say it did any harm, but the viv was doing very well and I was nervious as to how toxic the water might become.
On occasion I have used guppies in the pond as a kind of canary but didn't this time. If you do have a pond it's worth bearing in mind that guppies are a good indicator of water quality, if they can live in it, it's not poisoness.
It's also an idea too have only one sex because if conditions are good they breed like rabbits, at one point, I was taking buckets of them down to the local petshop.

I purchased one single apple snail, which turned into millions, more buckets down the local petshop.

Sometimes the conditions are exactly right and actualy can give you more problems than when they are slightly wrong, oh well.

cheers arthur


----------



## matt020593

Haha my family do exactly the same to me! The pond may be too small for guppies, maybe a Betta/siamese fighting fish would be fine in their as they dont need much room. I definately need something to clean the water up as mealworms often fall in it and it gets a bit mucky. I have submerged a water heater in the drainage layer which keeps the substrate a perfect temperature for incubating eggs and really helps the humidity.

Matt


----------



## Bamboozoo

New here. I think it might be time for the forums to actually have a section on cohabitation setups. Pet stores do give lots of bad advice on the subject. It is very contraversial. But I do believe it is the next trend coming. It would be nice to be able to display and speak about what has worked successfully for those of us that do this, that we may educate others on the subject and each other with our successes and failures. 

Pat


----------



## -EJ

I'm seriously curious as to how this made it as a 'sticky' among the lizard folks. Lizards have to be the most well documented among the reptiles being very successfully kept in a communal environment... along with water turtles.

I hope I'm missing the point of this thread but living in the American SW I've witnessed roughly 5 to 10 lizard species observed in a 100 square foot area at the same time. That might sound like a large space but I'm also sure if you apply a little statistics... I'd bet each and every one of those crossed paths at one time or another.

My opinion is that this... isolate species... stems from the postage stamp collector mentality... one species... one enclosure... I'd really like to blame it on the chelonian keepers but this 'discussion' has been raging for long before the internet.

The point... mixed species occurs in the wild. Some might say that species from the same region and habitat is acceptable... same 'postage stamp' mentality although a little more liberal. There should be no problem with keeping different species in the same environment in which they can thrive. 

Side note... Wild caught animals DO add the perspective that the mixed species might not be tolerant to the parasites that each other carries.


----------



## Matt Harris

Bamboozoo said:


> New here. I think it might be time for the forums to actually have a section on cohabitation setups. Pet stores do give lots of bad advice on the subject. It is very contraversial. *But I do believe it is the next trend coming*. It would be nice to be able to display and speak about what has worked successfully for those of us that do this, that we may educate others on the subject and each other with our successes and failures.
> 
> Pat


Different techniques come in and out of fashion so you may be right that in the future community vivaria may be more popular than now. Certainly when I started keeping in about 1981, nobody would think twice about mixing species - as long as they were healthy, needed the same environment, wouldn't bully/annoy/kill each other and the viv was big enough then there was no problem.


----------



## MarkB

Matt Harris said:


> Different techniques come in and out of fashion so you may be right that in the future community vivaria may be more popular than now. Certainly when I started keeping in about 1981, nobody would think twice about mixing species - as long as they were healthy, needed the same environment, wouldn't bully/annoy/kill each other and the viv was big enough then *there was no problem*.


People were not as well informed in 1981. Ignorance is indeed a problem, and led some idiot to sell me aquarium gravel for my agama in the early 90's, which in turn led to me waking up one morning and finding him dead, his gut full of the coarse white gravel.

Oh but '81... those were the good old days. It was better when we didn't know as much, weren't it. It was better when we didn't know of the miriad issues and problems which community vivaria present. But yes, all these things go in fashions don't they.

/nostalgia


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## arthur cooke

Mark,community vivs need more knowlage and keeping experiance, specialy if it is a planted environment and the end result can be stunning and, in my opinion you actualy learn far more about the animals and their natural behavour.

I don't make a point of knocking those who want to keep reptiles in the most excepted way and I fail to understand why those who want to keep community vivs meet so much resistence. I have spent some twenty five odd years developing community type vivs and they have been very succesful and great fun.
cheers,arthur.


----------



## Matt Harris

MarkB said:


> People were not as well informed in 1981. Ignorance is indeed a problem, and led some idiot to sell me aquarium gravel for my agama in the early 90's, which in turn led to me waking up one morning and finding him dead, his gut full of the coarse white gravel.
> 
> Oh but '81... those were the good old days. It was better when we didn't know as much, weren't it. It was better when we didn't know of the miriad issues and problems which community vivaria present. But yes, all these things go in fashions don't they.
> 
> /nostalgia


The animals were the same as were the techniques used to keep them - the current predilection for hysteria against keeping animals together exists only among the relatively small numbers of keepers who frequent these forums.

Believe me, you don't have to go back to the '80's to hear bad advice, or meet people who don't know how to keep animals properly.

Fair enough, if you feel you don't have the experience to keep mixed vivaria, then don't try it. But don't criticise those of us who have that experience and use it successfully.


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## Bamboozoo

For those of you who work this way, I would like to invite you to share your experiences and your set ups, and your failures. I would love to see your photos and hear what, who and how you have accomplished it. if you just want to share a photo that would be great too. I would love to be able to showcase what is being done well in this area.

I am not sure what the link rules are but I am findable, google the screen name, or look in your links section of the forum under care information. 

Pat


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## arthur cooke

Hi, take a look at my utube test1 on page 17.
cheers arthur


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## Bamboozoo

Awesome Arthur........would you mind if I pulled it into my site.


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## -EJ

This is speedy and Al...










They've been together for about 10 years...


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## arthur cooke

Bamboozoo said:


> Awesome Arthur........would you mind if I pulled it into my site.


Don't mind at all,feel free.
cheers arthur


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## Bamboozoo

Hi EJ

What kind of torts are those? 

Arthur ~ Thanks (have the link open on the bottom of my screen) 

Hi Matt ~ great looking vivarium you have. I have had great success with both blue tailed or rainbow skinks and 5 line skinks in community settings. I also use fire bellies. Water quality is an issue if you use fire bellies. The filtering capacity has to be huge so that their toxins are not toxic to others in the tank. The skinks will drink out of the water pond area. ie. 7 gallon water area I am using a fluval submersible 3. I still have the original fire bellies and they have been in this environment for 5 years now. I also have fire bellies in with a leaftail gecko. 

Pat


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## draconiz-666

I've got anoles living with a long tailed skink cos i heard the skink likes burrowing and lives on the ground so i figured he'd be perfect for eating the food the anoles couldnt be bothered with. 

however, he's decided he is going to live in the trees and wont go near the ground. on the whole - both species seem to pretty much be oblivious of each other to the point where they use the long tail (Jormungand) as a bridge between logs!
They do sometimes interact, but never negatively if there was any negative interaction they'd get separated sharpish, but they all seem happy - success i think.

I did at one point have another little skink, think it might have been a 5 lined skink or similar in size anyway, but he spooked them cos he was mental so he went back to the pet shop!


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## arthur cooke

If it's the asian longtailed grass lizard then they do like to climb and always do very well with anoles.
cheers arthur


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## draconiz-666

i dont know if he's asian or not!! he's pretty dark with yellow stripes from his head to his tail, and weird yellow spots on his flank with black centres to them. he looks a bit mixed up!!


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## silly grandma

*mixing species*

hi hope no one minds me saying 
once again very useful piece of info. I took it as info for anyone looking for opinions / help or advise before jumping into a complex hobby.
hopefully it will be appreciated by many.
thankyou


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## trevorb

so i hope that you all profersior in lizards and if you are not shut up


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## arthur cooke

trevorb said:


> so i hope that you all profersior in lizards and if you are not shut up


Pardon!!!!! Please explain?

Arthur


----------



## trevorb

arthur cooke said:


> Pardon!!!!! Please explain?
> 
> Arthur


 sorry but you all seem to think you know it all 
thats all but i think you may know the ones i am on about lol


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## arthur cooke

No, I don't know it all and tbh I haven't got the foggiest Idea what you are talking about as your post has come out of the blue.

Arthur


----------



## AwesomeSauce

We have Chinese Water Dragons and Basilisks together, in another Viv we have a group of beardies & uromastyx's, all very happy with each other  plenty of space for each other.


----------



## repti hot boy

*Sucsess*

Just to let you guys who are arguing know that i have mixed and bred many species with great success, It boiled down to the keeper and there experience. Cum on guys there is now a wide audience on keeping reptiles and you all have not got what it takes, its only the ones who have the knowledge that can put mixing species into practice.

So even though you are all arguing it depends who the thread is meant for as there are many different levels in herpetology. Many people out there can breed bearded dragons you just got to put them together in many cases and this is where the divide should be we are either dedicated and know our species or we just think we do because we had success breeding bearded dragons.


----------



## repti hot boy

*You got it*



awesomesauce said:


> we have chinese water dragons and basilisks together, in another viv we have a group of beardies & uromastyx's, all very happy with each other  plenty of space for each other.


this is what im talking about


----------



## arthur cooke

repti hot boy said:


> this is what im talking about


If you got a different point of view please explain, other wise the one line posts are a waste of time, because it then takes more posts to find out what you mean.

Arthur.


----------



## codyman70

I'm thinking of adding a black necked tree agama to my viv with my red headed agama's.i've been told as they are from the same region and are closely related that this will be fine.anyone know much about this?


----------



## Bamboozoo

I have kept a red head agama for a short period Cody. But have never had the blackthroat. In theory it sounds like it may work as I am assuming the tree would be more aboreal. The activity level may be very high which can be stressful if the blackthroat is as active as the redhead. I have also found more difficulties in working with sub species who are closely related in look, size. 

Pat


----------



## codyman70

Thanks pat.i'm ordering the black neck on friday.i'll let you know how she settles in.


----------



## ryan_ashworth

what species do u keep together i have nothing wrong with it just wondering
ryan
0.1 iguana
douge de bordeux


----------



## codyman70

I only have red headed agamas.i'm ordering a black neck on friday to replace one of my agamas that died recently.


----------



## Bamboozoo

would love to be kept up to date on how this matches up for you. Be ready to separate if needed. One of the keys to mixing is knowing when it is not working.

Good luck.


----------



## codyman70

Cheers pat.once she arrives i'll post regular updates on her progress.:2thumb:


----------



## ryan_ashworth

does anyone keep anything with large iguanas, ie sailfins etc


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## Bamboozoo

Personally I dont own any of the big guys.......the 2 you are looking at would likely be two of the most complicated ever to try and match. Iggi's in particular are known to go on rampages that would be very unsafe for a cagemate.


----------



## VW_Rick

Tortoise have been known to be kept with iggy's, mostly succesful.


----------



## Podarcis

*Mixing Species*

The heading post of this makes good sense, particularly in the point made about habitats. As for the member who so emphatically denies the possibility of herp species co-existing I can only recommend some field trips and seeing reptiles and amphibians outside of a heated box. Gopher Tortoise burrows, Galapagos beaches and European ponds are a few examples that spring to mind, as is your average Mediterranean rock wall.

The key is to find species from the same biotope and provide them with a true mixed habitat. I have been keeping Thamnophids with a Dice Snake for years, with no ill effects, because of the parity in lifestyle.

Therefore, do your research, give your animals enough room and choose compatible species and give it a go, with spare vivs should something go wrong.

Oh . . . and be very careful about stating absolutes in herpetology. "Full stop".


----------



## Bamboozoo

great addition Pod.....

but like for a simple girl could you let me in on what a thaaaaa...thingy is? thamnophids!


----------



## VW_Rick

It's a garter snake


----------



## Bamboozoo

:lol2: thanks Rick! (feeling like a complete idiot now)


----------



## Podarcis

Bamboozoo, I was just being pretentious, they are indeed Garter Snakes. I also keep a few different turtle species together, with absolutely no ill effects!


----------



## VW_Rick

Only mix I've got at the moment is one yellow belly slider, one red belly slider and one african helemted turtle. Not so adventurours at the moment but a new mixed tank in the pipeline with some good advice from bamboozoo! Think anoles, skinks, land hermits and frogs!


----------



## Bamboozoo

One of the reasons I work with attempting natural looking and mixed species is the workout it gives to my mind trying to improve their situations, having to be much more aware of goings on in each and solving situations that appear. Over the years I have learned that to have a complex and heavily covered environment has worked here to establish security. In keeping my mind stimulated I am much more involved with the reptiles.

Thanks Rick,Helping others review their strategies before attempting, really is why I decided to come out of the closet and face the dragons.

What we do is not everyone's cup of tea but I feel their are really about 20% seriously wanting to go in this direction.......and many many more are looking at natural settings vs. sterile. It is a right side of the brain/left side of the brain thing.

Pat


----------



## Bradders100

I have hermits in with my cresties ^^

Have been reading up on crestie habitat and found out that they co-exist with alot of skink species!


----------



## simooshy

I have a brooks gecko in with 3 long tails, when I bought them the guy in the shop told me they were absolutely fine together, and I had never heard of the controversy of mixing species.
Personally I must have been really lucky, because they not only have no problems being together, with one being nocturnal and the others diurnal, but in the evenings they curl up together and have a snooze! 
I did however have trouble when trying to introduce a green anole, so he had to be separated, but that was just his way. He was aggressive to everything, even other (female) anoles. :bash:


----------



## simooshy

P.S. It's an exoterra 60x45x60 with lots of plants and branches and they are so happy they breed profusely!:mf_dribble:


----------



## Bamboozoo

Photos please of the setups and inhabitants.

including the mixed turtle tanks, snakes, crestie, grass lizards. Photos of the environments with the photos of the inhabitants to show their condition is what convinces others of the possibility.

Thanks for joining the conversation all! (and bradders ~ rejoining ~ I remember seeing a post or two from the beginning of the thread).

Pat


----------



## VW_Rick

Turts..

















I'll get some pics of all the inhabitants when I get back from morocco in a week or two, they all bsak together but the african helmeted keeps himself to himself mostly (rescue).


----------



## Bamboozoo

Thanks Rick ~ Morrocco? lucky dog.....walking away growling and huffing
I envy you the experience!


----------



## simooshy

I have no pictures of them curled at the top and can't, because I had to take the poly back out (they kept on going down the back!) but I have a rather blurry (lol) photo of my current setup








I have just finished painting the old box to use as a backdrop too.


----------



## codyman70

Here is my new addition,a black necked tree agama.it's only been one day,but she seems fine with my red headed agamas.i'll keep posting updates on her progress.


----------



## Bamboozoo

Much appreciated additions! Nicely done viv.

Cody, It will be really important that you recognize how he is doing every day. Is he basking? Is he eating? How are the others adjusting? Bullying can be in his head only so watch to see his intimidation level. Sometimes they can hide it well and then take a quick downturn. Being aware of these things is what will help you interpret what you are seeing. 

He is beautiful. First picture I have ever seen of one.

Pat


----------



## codyman70

My new agama is fitting in quite well.she is basking and eating so i'm happy with her.the others are a little stand offish of her,but there's no intimidation so i think it's just a matter of time till they accept her as one of them.i'll keep updating about her as she progresses.


----------



## simooshy

Just noticed my first female longtail is looking particularly grvid again! wtg Parker (the male) you're a stud! :mf_dribble::mf_dribble:


----------



## simooshy

found a picture of the longtails with (just about visible in between) the gecko


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## Bamboozoo

Awesome Simooshy! Thanks for the addition to the thread! Do you leave the eggs in the environment? or incubate?


----------



## simooshy

I put them in a tub of damp vermiculite and leave them to incubate in the viv. Penelope is such a good hunter I would worry about her eating the hatchlings otherwise!


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## codyman70

coisty and dusty posing together.she's fitting in fine.


----------



## trevorb

what i think thay are saying sometimes it works and sometime it duz not.
i have done it and uit works for me but it may not for all 
if someone says to me can i mix i will say no but i have done it and thay are all happy but you can not just put them together and let them get on with it it take weeks and weeks to do it and you still have to see what is going on all the time with them.


----------



## Omerov1986

WELL! I keep a beardie with a giant wasp frog, a foursome of pygmy emerald royals and two paradox anxanthic Fijian iguanas just fine!


----------



## codyman70

dusty on yum yum.she's getting on great and they all get along fine,even though she's different.karen from exotic-pets was correct.they are all fine and the habitat is fine for her too.that's why you should listen to a professional and not believe everything you hear from anyone with an opinion.


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## stickinsect123

my ornate tree frog ate my anole :O luckily I got him out though


----------



## arthur cooke

You need to be carefull about size difference, hope the anole is ok.

Arthur.


----------



## stickinsect123

arthur cooke said:


> You need to be carefull about size difference, hope the anole is ok.
> 
> Arthur.


 He seems to be ok now, he's still really active and he's still eating well


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## webzdebs

a very interesting read and written well in such a way to give all aspects and all the information and not seem condeming


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## reptilechap

i guess im a lucky one who has been able to mix.

BUT.... these are subspecies :lol2: oh i love a technicallity!!


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## AwesomeSauce

Frilled dragon was lonely after his mate died, he was all forlorn looking, wouldnt eat, wouldnt go up on his branches just sat there with his feet on the front tank glass staring out so introduced him gradually to the beardies and uromastyx, he didnt even frill up at them and now basks with them and gets on totally fine he is in thier tank 24/7 now. Feeding time becomes a frenzy now though. Unleash the bugs and they all go crazy, its funny to watch the uros and beardies running after bugs, one of our beardies is silly, she tries to pull bugs out of the uros mouth after shes caught it lol.

So now in a 6ft viv 2x Beardies, 2x Uromastyx (1 Egyptian & 1 Oscealleted) and 1x Australian Frilled)


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## Bamboozoo

Hey Sauce.......throw us a picture or two of the environment and the residents. 

As they say, a photo is worth a thousand words! 

Environments like you speak of are rare to find with the larger reptiles.


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## dizzylynn

This was good to see, but even tho I am a newbie I think its just common sence you cant mix breeds. Pet shops pay say yes they are fine together but when you think about it, they are just babies, not at the aggressive stage of there cycle (mating season etc) so yes they will get on short term but not long term. Also they are not watching them 24/7 so wont know what goes on at night when the shop is closed for business.


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## venomous111

CWD said:


> its wrong to mix different species full stop


I disagree my boa (young) and royal(also young) have been together for a good 8 months now


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## dmj

A very good read
Thanks for trying to clear things up as it was needed.
Why is it all people want to do is pick at little things on here and start an argument. your just pathetic.


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## Victor Creed

There was a point I wanted to touch on, not sure how much relevance it has, but I wanted to post it before I forget (i'm still reading the thread, lol) and that would be this : In the American South, particularly Florida a Gopher Tortoise's burrow may be shared with a number of different animals, including snakes, frogs or toads, spiders and rodents as well. This form of multi-symbiotic relationships is quite wondrous IMO, and I thought it was a good example of animals who actually DO live together in the wild consistently.



I personally own a 40 gallon breeder Vivarium set-up for semi-aquatic w/ 10 gallons of water w/ a Tiger Salamander (Ambystoma tigrinium), a Green Toad (Bufo viridis), a breeding pair of Black Convict cichlids (Argocentrus nigrofasciatus) with fry, and 1 more small Convict residing in a 2.5 gallon tank INSIDE the 40 gallon that I used for creating a waterfall and several species of live plants as well. Despite the thought that the Tiger Salamander would swallow the toad and fish whole, it is rather docile and I have observed the toad sitting PIGGY-BACK on the Tiger's head, almost like they were best friends. If he wanted to eat him, he'd be a goner...we're talking a 3-4" toad and a 12" Tiger. They have been kept this way in excess of 2 years now. 

I just wanted to share, cuz I love the Vivarium I created for them and it appears they do also  I'd like to get him a "Tigress" to mate with.


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## Monitor93

I have 3 long tail lizards (1 male 2 female) and a fire belly toad living together. I done loads of research before I added her in and they get along great! I had a brown anole in there too, but he did start attacking my female long tail so I separated him from them. 
Please don't give me any greif for mixing them as I did research a lot before adding Nelly (my fire belly) into the viv and it's a 4x2x2 viv so it's quite big and tall so plenty of room  
: victory:


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## codyman70

I wouldn't think a 4x2x2 viv would be big enough for any three lizards.it's actually quite small.I know long tails aren't that big,but I think they could do with more space.


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## Bamboozoo

where are the photos people! 

Thought I would add in a couple of links related to the subject....

Debate thread and my basilisk and CWD: 
Mixing species

And this is a post with some beautiful examples of mixed species habitats.

Mixing Species - Geckos Unlimited


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## MillReps

we as a shop would never mix species or advise it.


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## Kalouda

I think it's common sense to not mix species. May be 1 in a million it's successful but still not worth to jepodise the health of your pets.


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## Matt Harris

Kalouda said:


> I think it's common sense to not mix species. May be 1 in a million it's successful but still not worth to jepodise the health of your pets.


Presumably you haven't read this or the many other threads on this subject right through. Many of us have and do have mixed set-ups maintained successfully over years, certainly more than 'one in a million'. If you don't have the experience to undertake this then fair enough, don't mix, but don't make sweeping statments which imply that those of us who do have that experience are without 'common sense'.


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## marcusjelly

anyone had any joy with housing frilled dragons and cwd together.
i am not really sure if its possible .
and to be honest reading the thread kinda makes me not wanna do this at all.
any informed opinions welcome please help me:bash:


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## thebaty

How about baby rankin dragons and adult leapord geckos?
would they by any chance get along????


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## marcusjelly

o read a bit about it mate and gone off the idea


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## mattandme2

thanks >>


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## koopz

hi has anyone owned red head agamas before?
i have a 1yr old male and wanted to get him a lady friend to enhance his colours and for him to get his groove on.....!! 

i was thinking maybe i could put another form of female agama in with him...?? obviously one of the same age/size ect....

Any advice other than dont? lol

cheers koopz


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## robspax

CWD said:


> its wrong to mix different species full stop


yeah, but people mix cats and dogs everyday! they may fight but they'll get along in the end without (always) killing each other! mixing is fine but keeping together long term may be another story! 
just got to be sensible wot you mix! a full grown iguana is gonna love going in with baby leopard gecko's but the gecko's might not agree? lol


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## simooshy

4x2x2 is actually enormous for longtails :2thumb:


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## Monitor93

simooshy said:


> 4x2x2 is actually enormous for longtails :2thumb:


I know ^_^ I have the babies in a 4X1X1 (but its landscape), they love it! There's only three at the moment though ahha! How're yours doing?


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## dj86

Mez said:


> Blazey,
> Whilst you may fully understand the origins of your animals and their needs, some, ie beginners to the hobby may not.
> I believe that this is the original idea of the topic and i think we should leave it at that and let people make their own minds up.
> Ive only ever been to chester zoo, and they dont mix species of lizards (or snake).
> James [/QUOT
> 
> They do mix some reptiles, they mixed leopard tortoise and some kind of finch can't remember which species. london zoo mix eyelash vipers with dart frogs, komodo dragon with bali starling, glass lizard with veiled chameleon and loads more that all work really well. i no their not reptiles but where i work now we mix a great ape species with a species of guenon and their fine togther. i feel it's definately not something you should do lightly but if you do enough reaserch and chose correctly it's fine and makes a brilliant exhibit. At home i mix golden mantella, green anole and giant millipede together with no problems and theres always something out and about to watch.


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## simooshy

Monitor93 said:


> I know ^_^ I have the babies in a 4X1X1 (but its landscape), they love it! There's only three at the moment though ahha! How're yours doing?


My dad loved them so much he stole them ^ ^ He's doing good with them. One sadly died recently, but he has another in a separate tank which is also thriving. They're eating like pigs, he's far too soft on them


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## Monitor93

simooshy said:


> My dad loved them so much he stole them ^ ^ He's doing good with them. One sadly died recently, but he has another in a separate tank which is also thriving. They're eating like pigs, he's far too soft on them


:lol2: Same here, one of mine sadly died last month  my dad loves them too!! haha they are little pigs aren't they ^^ we have three babies at the mo and have 6 eggs.. We have a juvenile one too who's doing great!! 
(He's a little fatty) lol.


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## jack clutter

CWD said:


> its wrong to mix different species full stop


 your wrong full stop


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## eddie s

have to say as a newbie i found this thread both exciting and funny . and also very informative but after spending the last hour reading it all im still at a stump,, 

can anyone please tell me in plain english , can i mix a leopard gecko with a breardie in a 4ft x 1ft x 3ft viv 
Thank you


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## jack clutter

eddie s said:


> have to say as a newbie i found this thread both exciting and funny . and also very informative but after spending the last hour reading it all im still at a stump,,
> 
> can anyone please tell me in plain english , can i mix a leopard gecko with a breardie in a 4ft x 1ft x 3ft viv
> Thank you


 not really mate the beardie and leopards are very different lizards


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## Guest

eddie s said:


> have to say as a newbie i found this thread both exciting and funny . and also very informative but after spending the last hour reading it all im still at a stump,,
> 
> can anyone please tell me in plain english , can i mix a leopard gecko with a breardie in a 4ft x 1ft x 3ft viv
> Thank you


Simple answer NO.

Beardies see smaller lizards as food even baby dragons so don't mix them.


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## River Zora

Beardies are voracious killers of anything smaller than them (and sometimes bigger- during a runaround one of mine tried to eat my tortoise!)

I'm sure some people have exceptionally lucky beardie temperaments to allow this, but I bet that's about 1% of beardies, if that!


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## eddie s

.....


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## eddie s

thanks for clearing that up for me , its appreciated loads,,,,,,,,:2thumb::2thumb:


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## Rojugi

people keep asking for pics - here are a couple from Aquaworld in Crete:



















as you can see the fully grown male iguana is happy to share with turtles (terrapins?) and tortoises. Althopugh not long after the second pic, the iguana shoved the tortoise into the pond, but to be fair it had been climbing all over him.

Also in the public courtyard were 3 females 1 male iguana and a massive african spurred tortoise roaming around. Loads of pics of the place on facebook if you're curious Welcome to Facebook — Log in, sign up or learn more


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## Bamboozoo

Those are terrific photos.....thanks for sharing them!  As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.


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## Lesk86

Brilliantly said - I totally agree :notworthy:




Art_Gecko101 said:


> After a conversations and pms from a few members, it's become apparent that a few of think that a sticky is needed to give information about species mixing as there are so many threads about it. I've tried to make it as objective as possible, but i know everyone has their own opinions. I know its a 'hot topic' but please try and keep any replies civil, this is just supposed to give information to those needing it.
> 
> 
> Mixing species of reptiles and amphibians is always a controversial subject. Some people may have luck with it, but for the majority of keepers, it is not something that is advised and it has the potential to go very horribly wrong. Very often, people post threads asking about whether they can mix ‘this’ with ‘that’, and so here I hope to clarify some of the reasons mixing species does not normally work. Many pet shops will mix species together to save space, and even recommend to customers that they are fine together, even when they most likely will not be for the long term. This post is not intended to be an attack on anyone who does mix species, and nor is it supposed to lay down ‘the rules’ that you must follow. It is simply information about the very important considerations that must be made when thinking about mixing species, and an attempt to help people wondering why people say it shouldn’t be done.
> I have tried to base the majority of this information on science, and not just the hear-say and gossip that inevitably gets passed around as fact. Some people will have success with mixing species, and there are very rare exceptions to the general rules where 2 species are relatively compatible, but before you attempt mixing species, you must 1st be armed with as much knowledge about the problems as possible.
> 
> 
> *Conditions.*
> As herptiles are ectotherms (cannot regulate their internal body conditions) living conditions are even more important than in other taxa. The species available in the pet trade come from a wide range of countries and environments which need to be simulated in their captive housing. This is the 1st consideration you must make when thinking of mixing species. How will you provide both species with its optimum conditions in the same vivarium? Even species that originate from the same country will need different conditions as in the wild they inhabit niches that are individual to them and provide them with the perfect conditions. For example, The Whites Tree frog (_Litorea caerulea_) is found in Australia, as is the Bearded Dragon (_Pogona vitticeps_). However, these 2 species need completely different conditions, and a Whites tree frog could certainly not survive in a set up designed for Bearded dragon. Even species that come from the same type of habitat, such as the whites tree frog and Red-eyed tree frog will require slightly different conditions to thrive, even though they both come from humid rainforest type environments. Without having a zoo-sized exhibit (beyond the means of most private keepers) it is impossible to provide both species with optimum conditions, and so 1 or both species will have to be compromised. This may not affect them in the short term, but as with all these issues, it may impact the long-term health of the animals.
> 
> 
> *Fighting and stress.*
> Many species are highly territorial, and as most would not encounter one another in a wild situation, there is always the risk of fighting between vivarium occupants. This is an issue with same species groups, let alone mixed species. When there is a size difference between the species, the smaller species may often be looked upon as a prey item, and the larger will attempt to eat the smaller.
> 
> Reptiles and amphibians are very susceptible to illness from stress. Lactic acid builds up in the system as the stressed animal respires anaerobically, and can often reach fatal levels. When mixing species, the animals are kept in much closer proximity than they would ever normally be in the wild and moreover, they cannot escape. Over time this will cause great stress to the animals. Most people will agree that they want to keep their animals as healthy and naturally as possible, and in the wild they would not be forced to spend time close to another species in the way a vivarium does.
> 
> 
> *Competition*
> Different species have different habits and methods of catching prey and feeding, and these often conflict causing competition issues in a mixed vivarium. I will use species I know well to demonstrate my point here. The Whites tree frog will wait very patiently, still and silent until the exact moment to strike, and then it jumps onto its prey. This can be a few minutes even! The Crested gecko on the other hand is much more rash in its hunting methods, and will pounce on a prey item with seemingly little forethought. If these 2 species were kept in the same enclosure, the geckos hunting method would likely cause the patient frog to be out-competed as it’s silent and still approach would be disrupted. Even issues other than food may be competed over, for example, who gets the best basking site? Who gets to use the ‘best’ hide?
> 
> 
> *The Chemistry. *
> All animal species in the world carry unique bacteria and protozoans that aid different processes to us, and in return they cause us no harm and we allow them to use the body of its host as protection and habitat. This process is called symbiosis. When 2 species come into close contact (as would happen in a vivarium) the symbionts from 1 species will get passed onto the other, and this may cause the 2nd species to become ill. What is harmless and healthy for 1 species is not for another. With WC animals, these problems are exacerbated, as you not only have to deal with symbionts, but parasites and illnesses that the other species will not be resistant to as they would not have been naturally exposed to them.
> With amphibians, the problems of chemistry are all the more severe, as they are particularly sensitive to external environment due to their semi-permeable skin. Even their own ammonia can kill them if water is not changed frequently enough, so add to that the waste products of another species and you have even worse problems. All amphibians produce toxic secretions from their skin, and while they may be so weak that they do not pose a health issue to us, another species, which is going to come into contact with the toxins in their environment, in their water supply, and potentially on their food, this may cause a serious health issue. Fire-bellied toads are one of the most toxic commonly kept amphibians, and I often get asked if they can be mixed with other species!
> 
> 
> *Habits.*
> When considering mixing species, thought must be given to how the different habits of the species will conflict. Diurnal species such as Anoles may conflict with nocturnal species (i.e. most geckos) as whilst one is sleeping, the other is active and may disturb the other. This is likely to cause stress.
> 
> 
> As I said at the beginning of this post, some people do have ‘success’ with mixing species. However, a lot of these issues will not become apparent in the short term. It may be months, even years before the extent of the problems takes effect and as reptiles have such different mechanisms for displaying illhealth than mammals, we may not spot the signs until it is too late. Before you even contemplate mixing species, you need to have kept each species separately, for long enough that you can know the ins and outs of each individuals eating habits, behaviours, appearance… so that if something is wrong, you can spot it. Mixing species should NOT be done for the conservation of space. This is not a good reason to mix, as the size of enclosure that a mixed exhibit will need is far bigger than the vivariums each species would need separately. Certain exceptions apply, as in all fields, but this should not be taken lightly either as it is not always successful. Whites tree frogs may be kept successfully with Whites lipped tree frogs (same genus, _Litorea_) and likewise, Crested geckos have been kept with Mossy geckos (same genus again, _Rhacodactylus_). However, these are exceptions. Crested geckos may not be kept with any other member of their family such as the Gargoyle gecko or Leachianus, and so it is not simply a matter of how related 2 species are.
> 
> I hope that this will be interesting and useful to people considering mixing species.


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## G.R/Trooper

What a good read, i'm sure it opened the subject properly and made people aware of the risks. Went into great detail and covered almost everything. 

My personal standing on this is somewhere between both sides. Ive visited shops that have different species in one vivarium and sometimes i feel disgusted about it. Recently i saw a male Beardie, female Uro and a female Leo all in the same 3x2x1 Viv in a local shop, which i dont want to mention. I find this poor keeping and certainly wouldnt advise it.

On the other hand, i say try it. To an extent. Im not talking about putting Leo's in with Tegu's or Beardies in with Toads. Im talking "similar" species/breeds.

Currently i have in my WD setup 2 CWD's and 1 AWD. They all get on fine, all eat and dont fight, they even sleep together on the same log every night. 

I also, due to unfortunate circumstances with my brothers Beardie, have ended up having to put my M beardie in with my two females. I expected collision to happen, since when it was just the two females early on they would fight each other. The male is blind in one eye and only about 14 months old. We rescued him from a local shop that just didnt have the time to treat him.

Since the male has been in with the female, the females no longer fight. Theres no fighting between any of them and they all continue their usual routines. 

Its trial and error, remember that mixing puts your animals at risk and you really shouldnt be attempting it unless you know every little thing about not only your pet, but its attitude and temprement towards other animals.

Finally, i dont want to spark a row but i will say one quick thing in regards to CWD's comment.

If you beleive that, then surely you must understand what i will say in response; Keeping an animal as a pet rather than watching it in the wild, is wrong full stop.

A good read anyhow, liked the depth of it.


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## G.R/Trooper

eddie s said:


> have to say as a newbie i found this thread both exciting and funny . and also very informative but after spending the last hour reading it all im still at a stump,,
> 
> can anyone please tell me in plain english , can i mix a leopard gecko with a breardie in a 4ft x 1ft x 3ft viv
> Thank you


It is possible yes, we did this for a brief period with my brothers female beardie and male leo. Unfortunatly this was only for 30mins max under supervision and i wouldnt advise you to keep them together at any point. The leo is nocturnal and the beardie isnt, meaning you are going to get clashes and it'l stress them out untill one snaps, which is most likely to be the beardie. As they grow older the leo wont get any larger than ~5 inch, and the beardie will keep going till approx 16 inch. 

So, in short. It's possible to keep them together for minutes, anything other than that is a no go.


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## wildenglishrose

Great thread.


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## dorian

I currently have a Crested Gecko in a paludarium, and was planning to get some African Dwarf Frogs and shrimps, but have decided to scrap the water because although I know it can swim, and can get to safety, I guess all the skeptic's "your crestie's gonna drown" has kinda got me paranoid. Anyway, I was wondering whether there are any kind of terrestrial skinks that aren't aggressive or too large/small etc that could theoretically co-inhabit?


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## Sloth

Very good read


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## jackdeedee1987

you make good points, I was going to try to have a red headed agama in with a uromastyx but upon reflection I don't think it's a good idea, separate vivs it is!.........:notworthy:


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## JO3

What about two different morphs of leopard geckos is that a problem


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## amazing_gecko

Different morphs are fine


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## BenjaminBoaz

Pet shop near me has a display of mixed tincs(dendros)
Which I think should be split into groups. I have seen other with mixed so. But ones that can't interbreed. It was once though not to keep in large groups as males spend more time fighting than mating...is this still the case? 
I've kept gold dust day geckos with whites before with no problems at all, they did have lots of room. Geckos would be tucked away at night in bamboo hides.


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## Mehelya

I found this thread particularly useful (the bits that I read) and some good points made. In particular, Arthur Cooke raised the subject of microhabitats and climates within large vivaria which leads me to my 2 cents worth. I've been keeping herps for over 20 years now and have evolved with the passion and advancement of technology and am of the opinion that we still have much to learn about herpetoculture (whether it be mixed or single species exhibits). The thing that gets to me is that there is a lot of info available on the net that covers in situ details of commonly kept species, but people are just too lazy (or unresourceful) to do the groundwork before planning an artificial habitat. Research is the key before you even put hammer to nail. It seems that most private keepers would sooner listen to a petshop salesman than do any other homework (by now we all know that the natural habitat of the leopard gecko is a small plastic box with a substrate preference of paper towel and that their favoured refugia are upturned flowerpots! They are frequently observed drinking from temporary puddles in jam-jar lids, and bask on heatmats!).
A simple flow-chart should be applied in the hobby: Concept > Planning > Implement > Assess > Adjust > Re-assess, but it seems that mostly we put the cart before the horse by applying the same generic care regime to most species and then hoping for the best.

My advice on this topic is:

1) Select species that co-habit the same geographic range and that will not predate on each other or out-compete each other for the same resources (basking, refuge, water, food, interaction with environment). There should be no risk of detriment to one from the other (ie, unsuitable ingestion of waste, disturbance of refuges through normal activity, crushing, soiling of water sources, etc)

2) Research their specific climatic requirements (atlas > archived climate data spanning several years to understand seasonality in the range habitat)

3) Research any work done on (in situ) ecological studies of the species to get an idea of how they function in their natural environment. This often provides a logical explanation to why certain species do certain things and what their natural activity patterns and prefernces are and links back to seasonal climatic data more often than not.

4) Plan your exhibit with seasonality, rainfall patterns, thermal highs & lows and microclimatic needs in mind (ie, you can provide cool damp niches within a warm tropical environment) and consider how you can monitor and manipulate these (USB temp & humidity loggers, thermostats, timers, automated dimming switches, etc) to provide naturalistic cycles, thermal gradients, lighting levels, etc for the selected species.

5) Ensure sufficiet space is available for the selected species to be able to perform the behaviours they are designed for. This applies to substrate choice, decor, refuges/hides, seclusion areas (accessable to only one species). Vertically oriented exhibits can provide more scope for microclimatic control.

6) Consider maintenance of and access to the habitat and how you will keep it clean. Proper ventilation and live plants (where feasable) can prevent/limit stagnant air which encourages smells and mould. Hygiene in a restricted environment (captivity) is critical.

7) Don't think that proper reptile keeping is a cheap and low input hobby. Invest in decent equipment that will provide them the best environment and welfare that they deserve. Don't assume that because a specimen is eating and breeding that it is thriving! If you want to see a reptile thriving, observe it in its natural state and condition (in the wild). Strive towards an environment that considers the animals' wholistic needs and stimuli. You will find that this requires loads of time spent in research, communication AND hands-on maintenance.

8 If your mixed species exhibit is not working, have a plan to separate and house individually. Adjust as needed and try again.

9) Record data religiously and review it.

In short, mixed species habitats can and do work as well as single species habitats if they are properly researched. Do your homework and absorb information with an open mind. Remember that a book is just one person's opinion and the more opinions and ideas you expose yourself to, the better informed you will be to make a decision.


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## parker46

I think although a species may live together in nature does not mean they can live together in a small space like a viv


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## Salazare Slytherin

parker46 said:


> I think although a species may live together in nature does not mean they can live together in a small space like a viv


My outlook is simply this.
If you have to ask if you can do one, you shouldn't be doing one, because A) it demonstrates a poor lack of knowledge and understanding of those involved. 

B) It demonstrates a poor understanding of their behaviors and habits.
C) Throwing animals together willy nilly with no understanding is usually only going to have one outcome, and it isn't good. 

On the other hand, a keeper with some expirience, knowledge, who is confident in that, is going to do what they want regardless of what anyone says, or any opinionated biased care sheet regurges, and it is as simple as that.

Bottom line is, don't throw animals together willy nilly and hope for the best.


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