# Blue Tongue Skinks dog food brand?



## silversceptile (Sep 3, 2016)

Hi there! I'm relatively new to the reptile forums as I've never really needed to personally ask a question because most information is already available on the reptiles I've owned, so please go easy on me :? I might be getting a Blue Tongue Skink within the next month and after many months of research I still haven't found a complete staple diet, I saw that some people mix dog food in with their Blue Tongue food and although I was kind of hesitant at the idea at first, it made me curious. A LOT of BTS owners use dog food and I'm starting to see that it is kind of a good idea being that both species are omnivorous, but obviously some things that are good for dogs won't be the same with skinks so I tried to find a brand that other people use commonly only to find nothing, most of the advice on feeding Blue Tongues dog food was from American threads and being that I live In England, most of the brands out there aren't sold here. So I came here to ask what dog food brands British Blue Tongue owners use and what you mix in with it  because I want to see diets that include dog food and diets that don't and make a decision from there. Thanks in advance.


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

I'll start by saying that I do not own a BTS but if I did I would steer away from processed dog foods and make your own diet using offal, mince, organs (e.g. heart, liver etc), eggs, whole prey (mice, chicks etc) and add suitable veggies/fruit. Freeze in portions, defrost and serve when needed. I would still also provide live bugs, both for nutrition and enrichment. Be careful of any commercial 'complete' diets. 

If you insist on using dog food, I would use a natural raw based food such as nature's menu or Lily's kitchen. A lot of commercial dog food is bad for dogs so pick very carefully.


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## Gaz1974 (Nov 5, 2014)

I have bts. If it had the chance it would eat dog food all day long, however it isn't good for it, and only gets a small amount once in a blue moon if I've run out of all other protein foods. 

The problem is that most dog food contains bone meal that is not good for the animal. Most is also cooked. In the wild the animal would not be eating cooked food. 

I tend to provide a diet that is 70% veg/fruit and 30% protein. Protein items can consist of raw offal like kidney. You can also collect snails and slugs. Keep these for a week or so in a container eating a know source of leaf to ensure any nasties that they may have eaten in the garden have passed through. As my skink is young a chop them up. 

Live locusts are also a good source of protein as the animal has to work hard to catch its prey. Keeps it active. 

They will also eat raw egg. 

It's easy to over feed so portion sizes should be strictly controlled. 

Its easy to waste a lot of food with skinks if you buy food from the supermarket as the package sizes are huge and the food expires too soon. I am trying to integrate my own meals into the skinks feeding regime. For instance I'll purchase some broccoli for my dinner and put a small amount to one side for the skink. It's a good excuse for me to eat strawberries and raspberries too, as the little blighter loves to chow on these. 

I also find that feeding the animal out of its vivarium assists in making it more sociable and eager to come out. My little one is now taking food from my hands. 

I hope this helps....this is only my methodology and may differ to others so please do take on board others people's advice too.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

*Brand*

I buy the cesar, chicken with the carrots on top. Meat looks good quality, my skink loves it and the carrot pieces with a tiny bit of jelly, never leaves any. Looking on the ingredients, I can't see anything that would be harmful. 

You just have to be careful of the portion sizes, given in the correct amounts its a good source of protein. Good to mix it up though, crickets/snails now and again, mine likes boiled egg as well, devours the stuff.

Ingredients:
Meat and Animal Derivatives (50%, including 4% Chicken), Vegetables (including 4% of a mix of Carrots and Red Peppers), Cereals, Minerals, Derivatives of Vegetable Origin

If anyone can see anything wrong with this then please let me know because there are other brands I could choose.


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## awh (Aug 20, 2008)

i dont even feed my dogs tinned dog food as there is so much additives in it 
, anyway its cooked and no animal would know how to light a fire other than humans so raw food is best for them


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

I have seen online that so many breeders feed dog food in the US and Australia, and many other sites say it is a good staple of their diet. But it's best to mix it up. 

I agree with you that the cheaper dog foods are full of crap and alot of sugars etc which give dogs terrible problems with tooth decay in the long term.

The better quality dog foods however I don't see as being an issue for skinks, if you can tell me exactly why they are so bad I might reconsider.

What are these additives you speak of and why are they so bad??????


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

awh said:


> i dont even feed my dogs tinned dog food as there is so much additives in it
> , anyway its cooked and no animal would know how to light a fire other than humans so raw food is best for them


This thing about cooking seems to be a dead argument to me. Humans did eat raw meats at one time before fire, cooking is just a pre stage of digestion and helps us get more calories from our food as it is easier to digest. Why would cooked meat be bad for the skink????

I have seen videos of so many people cooking turkey mince etc for their skink as part of their diet. I can't see why you are making this out to be an issue. Why is cooking the meat harmful???


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## ..:: F1D0 ::.. (May 13, 2009)

Apollo11 said:


> This thing about cooking seems to be a dead argument to me. Humans did eat raw meats at one time before fire, cooking is just a pre stage of digestion and helps us get more calories from our food as it is easier to digest. Why would cooked meat be bad for the skink????
> 
> I have seen videos of so many people cooking turkey mince etc for their skink as part of their diet. I can't see why you are making this out to be an issue. Why is cooking the meat harmful???


Because a reptiles digestive system is far different from our own and is more sensitive. Feeding under cooked poultry mince is asking for a Salmonella outbreak. If you have experienced a reptile with Salmonella, you will know this is the last thing you want to try and eradicate. It can be fatal if a high serotype and the meds required to clear it can take a lot of the animal.


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## ..:: F1D0 ::.. (May 13, 2009)

Apollo11 said:


> I buy the cesar, chicken with the carrots on top. Meat looks good quality, my skink loves it and the carrot pieces with a tiny bit of jelly, never leaves any. Looking on the ingredients, I can't see anything that would be harmful.
> 
> You just have to be careful of the portion sizes, given in the correct amounts its a good source of protein. Good to mix it up though, crickets/snails now and again, mine likes boiled egg as well, devours the stuff.
> 
> ...


Cereals in dogs can cause severe allergens so i would avoid a cereal based diet with a reptile. The other point is only 4% of the product is actually chicken meat based protein so pretty pointless being fed. IF you want a dog food (don't know why you would personally) then do not go with the tinned stuff. It is full of additives, lacking actual meat content and full of fillers such as cereals.


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## Panthraz (Feb 20, 2011)

I personally won't feed dog/cat food to my BTS again, not only because I have no idea 
what it contains that isn't listed in the ingredients but most of it didn't get eaten! 
Lean turkey mince is readily available and is a far better option IMO. I separate 
it into an ice cube tray and freeze for easy portions and an 
excellent balanced, staple diet is 40% turkey mince, 30% butternut squash, 20% mangoes/raspberry 
and 10% greens (home grown dandelions are easy).

He also has dubia gutloaded on butternut squash and the odd snail which can also be frozen and used instead of the turkey mince.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

..:: F1D0 ::.. said:


> Because a reptiles digestive system is far different from our own and is more sensitive. Feeding under cooked poultry mince is asking for a Salmonella outbreak. If you have experienced a reptile with Salmonella, you will know this is the last thing you want to try and eradicate. It can be fatal if a high serotype and the meds required to clear it can take a lot of the animal.


Doesn't sound like much science behind what you are saying, your just making generic statements with no facts as to why it's so bad. Who said the poultry mince was undercooked lol. First your saying give them raw meat, now your talking about Salmonella, make your mind up. 

This guy who posted below gives his raw turkey meat. Doesn't seem to harm his animal.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

..:: F1D0 ::.. said:


> Cereals in dogs can cause severe allergens so i would avoid a cereal based diet with a reptile. The other point is only 4% of the product is actually chicken meat based protein so pretty pointless being fed. IF you want a dog food (don't know why you would personally) then do not go with the tinned stuff. It is full of additives, lacking actual meat content and full of fillers such as cereals.


The dog food has 50% meat, 4% of that is chicken (read again). It's not as high as I would ideally like but I see sausages in the supermarket only 40% meat lol. It's not pointless, because it gives a good level of protein.

I hear reptile keepers saying a lot of insects are pointless as they contain little actual nutrients. So who is correct?

I like giving dog food for the following reasons:

1. It allows me to see how much the lizard has eaten on any given day, I can keep track of its intake and can measure out the proportions of food quite easily. When I was feeding crickets, they are hard to catch/hide away and so you don't know if the lizard is actually getting a decent amount of food each day.

2. I don't need to keep smelly insects in the house.

3. It is quick and easy to mix the dog food with chopped vegetables, and this encourages the skink to eat veggies. If I just fill his feeding dish with veggies and put in insects, the veggies will never get eaten, I been through this problem previously. 

4. Easy to hide the calcium powder in the food mixture so you know its being consumed properly.

I'm not saying dog food is the best food source available for lizards, all I'm saying that it is a decent source of protein and I have yet to get any real scientific reason of why it is not suitable. I tend to look at what breeders do as they have a lot of experience with these animals, what they do is tried and tested. I see many give the dried cat food also.

I'm not saying the dog food I buy is the best, I'm always on the look out for something that is better quality and has more nutritional content, so I'm open to suggestions. What I'm not open to is unsubstantiated claims of why this and that is bad. You get a lot of that on these forums.


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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

Apollo11 said:


> The dog food has 50% meat, 4% of that is chicken (read again). It's not as high as I would ideally like but I see sausages in the supermarket only 40% meat lol. It's not pointless, because it gives a good level of protein.
> 
> I hear reptile keepers saying a lot of insects are pointless as they contain little actual nutrients. So who is correct?


Insect are actually quite a good source of protein and nutrients, providing they are gut loaded and taken care of properly. Arguable insect are far better source of protein for human consumption as well, since they are rather effective in producing 'meat' then cows, pigs and chickens. Besides, insects contain chitin, which arguable provides a similar role as plant fiber.



Apollo11 said:


> 1. It allows me to see how much the lizard has eaten on any given day, I can keep track of its intake and can measure out the proportions of food quite easily. When I was feeding crickets, they are hard to catch/hide away and so you don't know if the lizard is actually getting a decent amount of food each day.


To be honest, measuring how much food an animal takes in is rather useless. Food intake between different animals can differentiate wildly. Weight and body shape are far more use full.



Apollo11 said:


> 2. I don't need to keep smelly insects in the house.


You're most likely still are, every house is crowded with a wide range of insect species 

In any case, I'd suggest dubia's as feeder items, these don't smell if you're doing it right. 



Apollo11 said:


> 3. It is quick and easy to mix the dog food with chopped vegetables, and this encourages the skink to eat veggies. If I just fill his feeding dish with veggies and put in insects, the veggies will never get eaten, I been through this problem previously.


It's common for a lizard to leave less favorable food alone if food is plenty. It's also completely normal for an animal to become 'hungry' enough to eat something less tastefull. If you need to feed a diet that hides food items that the animal naturally eats in the wild, then something is wrong with the diet. Either you***8217;re feeding to much or the wrong food items.

Besides, I've never seen any actual data about the stomach contents of blue tongue skins. Loads of Bearded dragon keepers kept on suggest very high plant matter contents without having any idea what these animals actually eat in the wild. It***8217;s possible that 50/50 is simply way to much plant matter compared to their wild diet



Apollo11 said:


> 4. Easy to hide the calcium powder in the food mixture so you know its being consumed properly.
> 
> I'm not saying dog food is the best food source available for lizards, all I'm saying that it is a decent source of protein and I have yet to get any real scientific reason of why it is not suitable. I tend to look at what breeders do as they have a lot of experience with these animals, what they do is tried and tested. I see many give the dried cat food also.
> 
> I'm not saying the dog food I buy is the best, I'm always on the look out for something that is better quality and has more nutritional content, so I'm open to suggestions. What I'm not open to is unsubstantiated claims of why this and that is bad. You get a lot of that on these forums.


Well the 'problem' with dogfood is that the cheap stuff isn't actually very good for anything (even dogs). It's often full of filler, chemicals and often poor quality base ingredients. Not to mention contain numbers allergens. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdT9R1QbZwI

The more expansive stuff is actually pretty good and contains high quality ingredients. But it's far more cheaper to simply buy several different kinds of (organ)meat and make something yourself. Both a perfectly usable as food for a skink.

I would never food only dogfood however. It's comparable to only eating spaghetti your entire life; you can mix up the sauce a bit, but you're still eating spaghetti. Secondly whole prey items simply offer much better nutritional value, different nutrients are stored in different body parts.

Finally, live food provides some very much needed enrichment to the animals live. We're keeping a wild animals in a boxes (to but it very crude), so at the very least would should allow them to express their natural behavior as much as we can. Simply putting a blob of food on a feeding plate is less entertaining for your animal, but also for the keeper.

There are a great number of BTS who do an excellent job of breeding animals. But there is also a great deal of people who keep these animals in an as effective a possible setup to ensure they produce as many healthy animals as possible. I don't really have problem with this, but it 'normalize***8217; husbandry practices that are more beneficial for the keepers then for the animal (I've seen BTS kept in rubs without any basking lights for example). It's perfectly fine if you want to follow these kind of guidelines, but it often has very little to with science nor is the best method of keeping animals.

If you to know how to best take care of an wild animal, simply look at wild conditions.


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## Tiliqua (Dec 6, 2008)

Unfortunately 99% of forum talk is not based on real experience but hearsay or guesswork. 

I feed dog food as a staple to my blue tongues. I vary flavours/brands, and the amount of dog food that I put into my skink mix. I also use lean steak mince or turkey mince instead of dog food for some feeds. Or sometimes I use Repashy meat pie or grub pie as the 'meat' component. But dog food is the commonest type of 'meat'. Grain content or other finer points are not anything to worry about. 

I add raw beaten egg, peas, chopped salad greens, grapes, strawberries, blueberries, banana, shredded apple, grated carrot, tomato, cucumber, dandelions, any fruit or vegetable although tending to avoid brassicas. Canned varieties that I use include Pedigree Chum loaf, Cesar beef and liver, Butchers tripe mix. For one skink, you may find the new Repashy blue tongue diet is the easiest/best way. I've not tried it yet myself. I like to use good quality vitamin and mineral supplements such as Nekton Rep, Nutrobal, Repashy calcium plus.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

Tiliqua said:


> Unfortunately 99% of forum talk is not based on real experience but hearsay or guesswork.
> 
> I feed dog food as a staple to my blue tongues. I vary flavours/brands, and the amount of dog food that I put into my skink mix. I also use lean steak mince or turkey mince instead of dog food for some feeds. Or sometimes I use Repashy meat pie or grub pie as the 'meat' component. But dog food is the commonest type of 'meat'. Grain content or other finer points are not anything to worry about.
> 
> I add raw beaten egg, peas, chopped salad greens, grapes, strawberries, blueberries, banana, shredded apple, grated carrot, tomato, cucumber, dandelions, any fruit or vegetable although tending to avoid brassicas. Canned varieties that I use include Pedigree Chum loaf, Cesar beef and liver, Butchers tripe mix. For one skink, you may find the new Repashy blue tongue diet is the easiest/best way. I've not tried it yet myself. I like to use good quality vitamin and mineral supplements such as Nekton Rep, Nutrobal, Repashy calcium plus.


Repashy Veggie Burger is popular for BTS. I'm not sure good long term diet though. Maybe 2 days of Repashy per week and a mix of other protein and vegetable sources rest of the days.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

Creed said:


> Insect are actually quite a good source of protein and nutrients, providing they are gut loaded and taken care of properly. Arguable insect are far better source of protein for human consumption as well, since they are rather effective in producing 'meat' then cows, pigs and chickens. Besides, insects contain chitin, which arguable provides a similar role as plant fiber.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WOW!? Why do people presume you are a complete idiot incapable of looking after your animal lol.

Firstly, everyone knows humans eat insects in Asia and they are supposedly a good source of protein. I know about gut loading, but people still say they are not really a good source of nutrients. 

Measuring the amount of food your animal gets is not useless, it helps you be in control of the proportion of food eaten, protein/veg/fruit. When you just put a load of crickets in, you don't know how many they have eaten in any given day. It's not always the case they are not hungry, they can't always get them in their hiding places.

I do have the occasional fly/wasp and we all know about the microscopic creepy crawleys in our homes, but that's different from having tubs of crickets and worms in the house. They smell after a while and you have to swap them into a cleaner container, all a big pain in the arse. 

There is nothing wrong with the diet I was providing, the lizard just doesn't fancy greens when other options available. Just wants the bugs! I think mixing the veggies with the meat is much better than starving the animal until it will eat any veggies put in front of it lol.

I buy good quality dog food, not the cheap rubbish.

I don't just feed dog food as the protein source, but its a staple of its diet for most of the week. I give it egg sometimes raw or boiled. I do give canned insects. I give a good variety of veg and fruit also.

I also think it is good stimulation to feed insects, but they don't need them on a daily basis. I hand feed my skink with a spoon to help with the taming process, so that is some sort of stimulation. 

I am not saying everything breeders do is what a pet owner should do, and in terms of housing they are rarely an example. However when it comes to food I do trust them more as they deal with lots of individuals in the same species so they get to know what works well and what doesn't so I do listen to their advise on that score. Also whether you like it or not they often know what is cost effective and is the least time consuming, and I'm all for that, we all live busy lives.


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## wagg (Feb 6, 2014)

One of the boys do breed dogs. He feed them on a freah diet now instead of kibble and wet food because hes researched that the tinned stuff is crap and mainly full of water.


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

It's a shame that BTS husbandry hasn't improved like many other species. The only reasons I can think of why people still feed dog/cat food to reptiles is either finances or lack of effort or research.

The below link will help weedle out the bad dog foods from the better quality ones. Some of the ones mentioned above are really poor quality that I wouldn't dare feed a dog - some contain E numbers and cancer-causing chemicals.
The Dog Food Directory - now listing 1477 dog foods!


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

vgorst said:


> It's a shame that BTS husbandry hasn't improved like many other species. The only reasons I can think of why people still feed dog/cat food to reptiles is either finances or lack of effort or research.


That certainly appears to be the case reading some of the replies here, its a shame.

Lets cut the arguments about lack of scientific research or studies for a moment, if a keeper is feeding their BTS processed 'dogfood', they are doing so because it is easy, its as simple as that.

If they really do want to find the best brand, thats a good thing, certainly, but an even better thing would be to provide an appropriate and balanced diet.


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Tiliqua said:


> Unfortunately 99% of forum talk is not based on real experience but hearsay or guesswork.
> 
> I feed dog food as a staple to my blue tongues. I vary flavours/brands, and the amount of dog food that I put into my skink mix. I also use lean steak mince or turkey mince instead of dog food for some feeds. Or sometimes I use Repashy meat pie or grub pie as the 'meat' component. But dog food is the commonest type of 'meat'. Grain content or other finer points are not anything to worry about.
> 
> I add raw beaten egg, peas, chopped salad greens, grapes, strawberries, blueberries, banana, shredded apple, grated carrot, tomato, cucumber, dandelions, any fruit or vegetable although tending to avoid brassicas. Canned varieties that I use include Pedigree Chum loaf, Cesar beef and liver, Butchers tripe mix. For one skink, you may find the new Repashy blue tongue diet is the easiest/best way. I've not tried it yet myself. I like to use good quality vitamin and mineral supplements such as Nekton Rep, Nutrobal, Repashy calcium plus.


Hi, I have real experience of these animals in the wild over many years (Australia), I `ve also kept and bred them in captivity without ever feeling the need to offer dog food. These days especially there are so many more "natural" food items available the only excuse not to make use of them almost entirely is surely out of convenience and cost cutting, which a few members have stated they do.
Edit: Supplementation is to some degree pure guesswork.


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## Gaz1974 (Nov 5, 2014)

It's so easy to get good quality protein for free or very little money. 

Snails are a good start. Just feed them for a week on leftover leaves to ensure any nasties have passed through then freeze them. Then defrost and chop up.

Making yourself a nice dinner of liver? Cut a small bit of raw off and give to skink. Cheap and easy. 

Making scrambled egg? Before adding milk and butter etc pop some of the beaten mixture into a pot for the skink.

Just got be be inventive. 

I admit mine has the occasional bit of premium dog food, but only rarely if I haven't got anything else in. 

It's more fun doing it the natural way: victory:


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

Zux said:


> That certainly appears to be the case reading some of the replies here, its a shame.
> 
> Lets cut the arguments about lack of scientific research or studies for a moment, if a keeper is feeding their BTS processed 'dogfood', they are doing so because it is easy, its as simple as that.
> 
> If they really do want to find the best brand, that's a good thing, certainly, but an even better thing would be to provide an appropriate and balanced diet.


I have stated the reasons I give dog food, it's partly to help the consumption of veggies/calcium supplements. Why are people so anti dog food? I keep asking why it's so bad but nobody has the answer to it, I hear reptile keepers say crickets are a rubbish food source, lack nutrients so who is correct then?

The reason I started using it is because I saw videos of breeders in Australia saying its a great source of protein. Not just one breeder, but many.


I'm a well educated person, so if someone was to say it's got this chemical in it that causes the lizards kidneys to stop working and there was some evidence I would stop using it. The people against it don't seem to have any evidence to back up what they say. Yet there is proven healthy lizards living on dog food. I look at facts and what I can see, not hearsay.


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Apollo11 said:


> I have stated the reasons I give dog food, it's partly to help the consumption of veggies/calcium supplements. Why are people so anti dog food? I keep asking why it's so bad but nobody has the answer to it, I hear reptile keepers say crickets are a rubbish food source, lack nutrients so who is correct then?
> 
> The reason I started using it is because I saw videos of breeders in Australia saying its a great source of protein. Not just one breeder, but many.
> 
> ...


Why do you need to add calcium supplementation to the greens (which type of veg)?
Can you link us to the Aussie breeders you refer to, I`m an Aussie and have bred them without ever offering dog food, mostly because there was no need.
Would you be willing to show your setup and Blue tongue and give details of the conditions you offer, also, when you say "proven" healthy lizards, which proof are you referring to?


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

Apollo11 said:


> I have stated the reasons I give dog food, it's partly to help the consumption of veggies/calcium supplements. Why are people so anti dog food? I keep asking why it's so bad but nobody has the answer to it, I hear reptile keepers say crickets are a rubbish food source, lack nutrients so who is correct then?
> 
> The reason I started using it is because I saw videos of breeders in Australia saying its a great source of protein. Not just one breeder, but many.
> 
> ...


Frankly, as an educated person, you sound like you just want people to tell you Dogfood is good to use, thats not going to happen on this forum.

You seem insistent somebody must provide some scientific reason why processed dogfood will cause the death of your Skink, it almost certainly wont do that for the record. By the same logic though, do you have any scientific proof that its a good thing to feed? Because there is swathes of information available stating these dogfoods are pretty unhealthy and poorly formulated even for the dogs, let alone reptiles they were not designed for in the first place

As has previously been explained, breeders, while many are well meaning, are business people first and foremost, it pays them to do and pay the absolute minimum they have to in order to produce functioning, reproducing animals with minimum outlay, thereby maximizing profits. This does not make their husbandry correct and certainly doesn't make it something you should seek to emulate for your pet.



 Dogfood, is not a good source of protein, its a cheap and very unhealthly choice of food, ground turkey (for example) is a great source of protein.


 Dogfood does not help with intake of supplements any better than the healthier options.


 Crickets are not unhealthy at all and wherever you got that information from should be avoided much as anybody still advising dogfood as a diet for captive BTS.
 
Finally, and this is important, you often cannot see the signs of a poor diet in a reptile unless it reaches a critically deficient stage, while you may see that the Skink looks a healthy weight on youtube, this does not make it a healthy animal, the only way to determine that health is through real testing performed by your vet.

Not liking what people have to say, does not automatically make it hearsay.


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## Gaz1974 (Nov 5, 2014)

You should also try locusts now and again. It's great fun watching the skink chasing them about trying to catch them. You get a real sense of achievement every time one gets caught:2thumb: Its also great for keeping the skink active.


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## Gaz1974 (Nov 5, 2014)

Back to dog food of course....a friend of mine who has kept both reptiles and dogs for years coined it... As humans we should eat a natural diet to stay healthy. The odd bit of processed food doesn't hurt us but if it becomes our staple diet then it is bad for us. The same must therefore apply to animals. 

So I guess dog food is the equivalent of McDonald's. Alright in moderation but not all the time. 

She also said that genetically domestic mammals have become acostomed to processed food, however this may not be the case for reptiles. 

Just relaying someone else's advice that I took prior to getting my skink.


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## MikeO233 (Sep 14, 2014)

My BTS loves locusts.

I also feed her a pinkey as a nice treat every couple of weeks.

I have to say she is probably the most difficult of all my reps in terms of feeding. I offer mango, blueberry and strawberry as this fits with what I have in for the Iguanas. I also put in kale, although she only takes small amounts.

Interesting thread - I might have a look at turkey as we are trying to eat more white and less red meat - Do you cook the turkey or feed it raw?

I feed raw meats to my dogs so sometimes get liver and kidney in, so might start offering that too - Again do you cook first or feed raw?


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

murrindindi said:


> Why do you need to add calcium supplementation to the greens (which type of veg)?
> Can you link us to the Aussie breeders you refer to, I`m an Aussie and have bred them without ever offering dog food, mostly because there was no need.
> Would you be willing to show your setup and Blue tongue and give details of the conditions you offer, also, when you say "proven" healthy lizards, which proof are you referring to?


Firstly, there is nothing at all wrong with my set up, 4ft glass front viv (brand new from an online store), 2 exo terra hides, basking area, java wood/artificial plants all the correct heat lighting, UV tube light, its all spot on! Don't make out I'm a bad keeper just because I don't do exactly what you might do! Just because I choose to feed dog food doesn't mean I am an idiot who doesn't know about reptile husbandry, I've kept snakes for years with no issues at all, never had any health issues with any of my animals. I am not an idiot thank you very much. I did plenty of research before getting my Blue Tongue, dog food was a choice based on many different people's opinions and my own experiences. Like I said previously, I fed insects originally and then veg/fruit separate, the bugs seemed to hide and I was never sure of how many he had eaten in a day if any and the veggies never got touched hardly. He just ate the blueberries now and again. When i mix the veggies with the dog food they get consumed no problem so I know it's getting everything it needs nutrients wise. I'm not detailing everything I feed veg wise, It's all the stuff everyone else feeds, it wasn't an issue with the type of veggies, it was because for some reason it just wants the meat or insects, I've read many others have similar trouble making their skinks eat veg. The guy who breeds them, who I purchased from also told me it's fine to feed them dog food as a staple, he personally doesn't but he owns a shop so has lots of bugs readily available. 

I have read that it is a good idea to sprinkle calcium powder on the food every few days, so that's what I do. I understand some people also dust insects with calcium. What is wrong with that? I'm guessing you are inferring that there is something wrong with the diet I am feeding hence the need for suppliment......eerrrr wrong guess! 

Off the top of my head one was Peter Birch in Australia, and I know Ron Kudos in Florida does. They do Cat food, but I read that cat food has some chemical that's not great so I went for dog food.

Also this care sheet, offering good detailed nutritional info on all types of foods for blue tongues says dog food can be a staple for protein.http://bluetongueskinks.net/foodchart.html

Like I said, I am educated, so I do research things before I do them!!!!!

People on here just presume everyone is mentally deficient and can't look after a reptile!

When I say proven, I mean you can see the animals are in good condition, weight, how active they are. They usually show their animals because they are plugging their business. 

Like I said, If you can give me a valid reason why dog food is not acceptable as protein source then I will stop using it. I want evidence though, not just you saying they don't eat it in the 'wild'. 

I'm buying decent quality dog food now, after looking at some others recently I'm going to switch to this stuff: Natures Menu Country Hunter Free Range Chicken Dog Food 6 x 150g Pouches | Pets At Home 

Composition: Free Range Chicken (min 80%), Sweet Potato (3%), Carrots (3%), Green Beans (3%), Mixed Berries (2%), St Johns Wort (0.5%), Spirulina (0.5%), Yucca Extract, Green Tea Extract, Grape Seed Extract, Rosemary Extract. Technological Additives: None stated; Sensory Additives: None stated; Nutritional Additives: Vitamin A 3000iu, Vitamin D3 200iu, Vitamin E 30mg. Trace Elements: Zinc sulphate monohydrate 15mg, Manganese sulphate monohydrate 3mg, Calcium iodate 0.75mg, Sodium selenite 0.03mg. Analytical Constituents: Protein 10.7%, Crude Fibres 0.3%, Crude Oils and Fats 5.1%, Crude Ash 2%, Moisture 72%.
Feeding Guide: Feeding Guide. Approximate Pouches Per Day: Toy 1/2 - 2, Small 2-3, Medium 3-7, Large 7+.

Can you see anything wrong with this stuff. If so then let me know!!!!!


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## MikeO233 (Sep 14, 2014)

Apollo - I think it would be a good idea to relax a little and take stock... People aren't on this forum for an argument. Those of us that frequent here like to have open conversation and debate, give advice, seek advice, but all in a calm manner.

Your posting manner has been pretty aggressive, which is never good when you are new to a forum.

I don't think anyone is at all calling you mentally deficient or insinuating such. People have different views. That's one of the great things about this place as we all learn from each other.

Just take a step back and calm down a little, take things a little less personally and have a reasoned and rationale debate rather than having angry outbursts.

As per my last post, I am finding this thread very interesting to help with my BTS diet - As one of the newer reps that I keep I am still learning so keeping things calm and considered will be really helpful for anyone else learning from this conversation now or in the future.


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## Gaz1974 (Nov 5, 2014)

Apollo. It's interesting what you said about mixing the food up. My skink will often take the protein dish and ignore the veggies and salad. Perhaps I should start mixing the meals rather than having one dish for meat and another for veg!


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## MikeO233 (Sep 14, 2014)

Nice point (which I actually missed the first time around because of the rest of it..) - Not occurred to me to do this either and often find the same outcome, so I tend to put the veggies in first and wait until they are eaten. Didn't really come to mind to just mush it all up into one


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

Zux said:


> Frankly, as an educated person, you sound like you just want people to tell you Dogfood is good to use, thats not going to happen on this forum.
> 
> You seem insistent somebody must provide some scientific reason why processed dogfood will cause the death of your Skink, it almost certainly wont do that for the record. By the same logic though, do you have any scientific proof that its a good thing to feed? Because there is swathes of information available stating these dogfoods are pretty unhealthy and poorly formulated even for the dogs, let alone reptiles they were not designed for in the first place
> 
> ...


Frankly as an educated person, I look at all the options and make a rational decision based on many factors. I don't want people to tell me dog food is good, I just expect that when someone tells me it's bad they actually have some valid proven reason why it's not o.k. Up to now nobody has been able to!!!!!

I'm not feeding the cheap dog foods, the one I am on now is a premium brand. I have read/been told by multiple sources dog food is o.k to feed as a protein source, and they are trusted sources in my book. I don't even know you people but you tell me its bad, so if you want me to listen to your opinion over and above these people, yes I want some factual scientific reason it is not suitable.

I get breeders want a cost effective food source, I own a business so I know about how things work. But they also want their animals to be healthy so they will breed, there animals are their stock and so it's in their interest to keep them healthy. I'm not saying everything breeders do is good by any means, but if they say a certain item is ok to feed I will tend to believe them. The breeders vids etc were not my only source of info, even the reptile shop owner who I purchased from said its ok to feed dog food, and he keeps his animals immaculately, really cares about his animals, known him a long time and he wouldn't point me wrong.

Hearsay is when people tell you something with no proof!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

MikeO233 said:


> Apollo - I think it would be a good idea to relax a little and take stock... People aren't on this forum for an argument. Those of us that frequent here like to have open conversation and debate, give advice, seek advice, but all in a calm manner.
> 
> Your posting manner has been pretty aggressive, which is never good when you are new to a forum.
> 
> ...


I'm not argumentative, I am merely responding to criticism I seem to receive, these guys obviously don't like dog food being given so they are trying to make me out to be a bad keeper to win the argument. This I do not like!

When I say I give supplements and the skink doesn't want to eat veg, these guys start asking me questions about my set up and what veg I feed, inferring there is obviously some other reason it doesn't want to eat the veg, other than its probably not its fav food. Why do kids want chicken nuggets and chips instead of broccoli shakes????

I'm not new to this forum, I had an account years back but couldn't remember the details so thought it best to start a fresh. As I know this forum, I also know that many a person will give advise without anything to back it up, this I also dislike. 

I'm also on here to learn, if you read further up, I have tried to give a rational argument as to my views. 

If I feel I'm being attacked personally then I will have to back up my side of course.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

Gaz1974 said:


> Apollo. It's interesting what you said about mixing the food up. My skink will often take the protein dish and ignore the veggies and salad. Perhaps I should start mixing the meals rather than having one dish for meat and another for veg!


Yes, it works. Even if you are giving turkey meat or egg, you can mix the chopped veggies in and they will get eaten a lot more readily than if you offer them alone. 

I'm guessing skinks are like people though and some individuals will like their veg more than others, so I'm sure some people offer veg alone in a dish and it gets devoured.


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## MikeO233 (Sep 14, 2014)

Apollo11 said:


> I'm not argumentative, I am merely responding to criticism I seem to receive, these guys obviously don't like dog food being given so they are trying to make me out to be a bad keeper to win the argument. This I do not like!
> 
> When I say I give supplements and the skink doesn't want to eat veg, these guys start asking me questions about my set up and what veg I feed, inferring there is obviously some other reason it doesn't want to eat the veg, other than its probably not its fav food. Why do kids want chicken nuggets and chips instead of broccoli shakes????
> 
> ...


From an observers point of view, you are. It's evident on contributions to the gout thread too. I am not having a go, and you might not mean to be, but that is how it comes across. 

Debate isn't about "winning an argument". When you view something that way from the off it will only go one way..... There aren't winners and losers here...that's not the point of discussing advice and learning about our hobby?

Have a look into something called the Jahari Window - It's all about how you see yourself, how others see you and what you can't see about yourself. It's a great way at learning how to accept feedback without being offended and taking things personally. Great tool.

It is clear to me that you have some really valid points to contribute but it would be useful to hear them rationally rather than emotionally? e.g. The mashing everything together in a mix - I am going to try this and see how my BTS takes it. 


For the record, when I purchased my BTS she was being fed cat food and was doing very well. I have provided it to her but have also been trying to reduce this and move to a more natural diet, hence my interest in this thread, as my personal feeling on it is the same as my view on why I don't feed my dogs "off the shelf" foods - Because they are on the whole, biologically inappropriate. Plenty of healthy dogs eat bad dog foods and live long lives, but it doesn't mean they have been in the best of health. It is the same with humans. Same with our reps. I don't think it can be debated that an unnatural processed product would ever be better for an animal than something totally natural and untouched - That just stands to reason. Just because something has "always been done that way", doesn't make it the best way.


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Apollo11 said:


> I'm not argumentative, I am merely responding to criticism I seem to receive, these guys obviously don't like dog food being given so they are trying to make me out to be a bad keeper to win the argument. This I do not like!
> 
> When I say I give supplements and the skink doesn't want to eat veg, these guys start asking me questions about my set up and what veg I feed, inferring there is obviously some other reason it doesn't want to eat the veg, other than its probably not its fav food. Why do kids want chicken nuggets and chips instead of broccoli shakes????
> 
> If I feel I'm being attacked personally then I will have to back up my side of course.



"Attacked personally" by whom?
I merely asked for a few photos of your setup and animal plus details of the conditions, considering you`re so "well educated" and have done much research, I would expect you to have everything in place to support the lizard. 
Many vegs contain good amounts of calcium, that`s why I asked why you needed to add supplementation?
Can we see the enclosure, and can you give details of the ambient and surface temps plus humidity range and how you measure those, also type of heat (basking) bulb, and UVB light, and finally, how long you`ve been keeping this animal? Thanks!
Edit: You mentioned you offered supplementary calcium to get the skink to eat vegs, how would sprinkling calcium dust on them make them more appetising?


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

When you say you made the decision to feed dog-food based on many factors, what factors do you mean exactly? 

When you say you have been told by multiple sources dog-food is OK to feed, who do you mean exactly?



It is entirely your decision to blindly ignore all logic and take the advice of breeders (who base husbandry around care sheets from two decades ago) as gospel. 

All you need do is take 5 minutes to do some research on the subject yourself, rather than sitting here repeating the same sentence about what an Australian breeder said about cat-food and insisting we provide you scientific proof via a forum post contradicting that.

People (like the reptile shop owner) can be wrong, or mislead, without the intention of leading you astray.

Nobody here attacked you personally, so I have no idea where you're coming from with that, but having been reading your replies both here and elsewhere I am not going to engage with you further.



I wish you the best of luck getting the issues surrounding diet resolved.


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Zux said:


> I wish you the best of luck getting the issues surrounding diet resolved.


Hi, it would be a shame if you stop offering your opinion based on Apollo11`s responses, it will be much more helpful to the discussion if you continue!


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

Gaz1974 said:


> It's so easy to get good quality protein for free or very little money.
> 
> Snails are a good start. Just feed them for a week on leftover leaves to ensure any nasties have passed through then freeze them. Then defrost and chop up.
> 
> ...


I do give snails on occasion, canned insects, and boiled or raw egg for differnet sources of protein.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

MikeO233 said:


> From an observers point of view, you are. It's evident on contributions to the gout thread too. I am not having a go, and you might not mean to be, but that is how it comes across.
> 
> Debate isn't about "winning an argument". When you view something that way from the off it will only go one way..... There aren't winners and losers here...that's not the point of discussing advice and learning about our hobby?
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to win an argument, but something that really irritates me is when people are condescending in their responses, how is this constructive. I think peoples null hypothesis on here is that all the other keepers are bad and are doing things incorrectly just because they don't share their opinion. 

Pointing me to the 'Jahari Window' is also very condescending, but thanks anyway lol.

And if we are talking frankly, alot of people on here will bash what someone else does just for the sake of being a 'know it all'. 

I'm all up for people questioning what I do, or think but as long as it is done with a rational argument, and not just for the sake of it. 

I have put my point rationally at first, the rest in just response to criticism


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

murrindindi said:


> "Attacked personally" by whom?
> I merely asked for a few photos of your setup and animal plus details of the conditions, considering you`re so "well educated" and have done much research, I would expect you to have everything in place to support the lizard.
> Many vegs contain good amounts of calcium, that`s why I asked why you needed to add supplementation?
> Can we see the enclosure, and can you give details of the ambient and surface temps plus humidity range and how you measure those, also type of heat (basking) bulb, and UVB light, and finally, how long you`ve been keeping this animal? Thanks!
> Edit: You mentioned you offered supplementary calcium to get the skink to eat vegs, how would sprinkling calcium dust on them make them more appetising?


Your a legend! 
When I make a statement that has nothing at all to do with general husbandry and you then start asking me what my set up is like and for pictures, which veg I use, you are inferring that there is some kind of issue with these and I don't know what I'm doing in general. This is a bit like when someone tells a story about someone in a newspaper and then the people accused try to discredit the person to make them look like they are not telling the truth. Come on you know what you are doing!!!!

Why do you need pictures of my set up, we are debating whether dog food is any good or not. I have a lovely set up, everything spot on, don't worry. The only thing I do different to you I'm guessing is I give dog food for protein and not insects.

I'm not saying I am David Attenborough, I telling you I am an educated person in general and that I know how to research things. I don't just make it up as I go.

The skink doesn't 'need' supplements. I give a wide range of fruit and veg and I assume it gets what it needs from this. I'm not putting calcium powder to make it more appetising, I actually mix it in as I am guessing the powder doesn't taste nice. The reptile shop owner told me to sprinkle some calcium supplement on all the food every few days just to make sure its getting enough to prevent MBD. It's more a precautionary thing over and above what might be needed. And yes before you ask I have a UV strip light so it's going to be able to metabolise everything effectively.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

Zux said:


> When you say you made the decision to feed dog-food based on many factors, what factors do you mean exactly?
> 
> When you say you have been told by multiple sources dog-food is OK to feed, who do you mean exactly?
> 
> ...


My decision to start using dog food was based on reading different care sheets, like the one I linked earlier, watching tons of videos on you tube, yes some breeders and some of others. Different websites and forums. The reptile shop owner, who I trust, I've known him a while not just some random pet shop owner I have no clue about. This person also told me about people he knows who feed dog food. Like I said he doesn't feed it to his so he is not bias towards it's use. But he has tons of insects available to him. I have weighed up who is giving the advise and whether or not I can trust them, like I said i am not an idiot.

It's not 'defying all logic', to take the word of people who keep many individuals of the same species and have years of experience in working with reptiles. These people are more expert than pet keepers in my view. But yes, I'm well aware that not everything they do is best practice, especially when it comes to housing. These breeders vids I mentioned were not the only source, they were one of many.
And by the way, when you say things like i'm 'blindly ignoring all logic', that is attacking me personally because you are inferring that I can't form a logical argument. Just like the other chap asking me about my set up to make me look incompetent. 

I have spent alot more than 5 mins researching. I've been on this thread ages now and still no body can give me a convincing argument as to why dog food id not o.k as a protein source. 

I have not come onto this thread to champion dog food as the all supreme most nutrient rich super food for skinks. I was merely throwing my 2 cents in and saying why I started using it, and giving rational, logical, practical reasons I like it. I have said about 5 times now that I would stop using it if someone could give me a valid and scientifically sound reason why I shouldn't be feeding it.

And like I said previously, I give different items like raw/boiled egg and canned insects. I just don't give live insects because for the reasons I stated previously. 

You don't to engage with me that's fine. I don't have any issues surrounding diet, I'm not the OP, my lizard is just fine.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

vgorst said:


> It's a shame that BTS husbandry hasn't improved like many other species. The only reasons I can think of why people still feed dog/cat food to reptiles is either finances or lack of effort or research.
> 
> The below link will help weedle out the bad dog foods from the better quality ones. Some of the ones mentioned above are really poor quality that I wouldn't dare feed a dog - some contain E numbers and cancer-causing chemicals.
> The Dog Food Directory - now listing 1477 dog foods!


Thank you for this link, I'm now going to switch dog food brands.

Natures Menu Country Hunter Free Range Chicken Dog Food 6 x 150g Pouches | Pets At Home


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Apollo11 said:


> I'm not argumentative, I am merely responding to criticism I seem to receive, these guys obviously don't like dog food being given so they are trying to make me out to be a bad keeper to win the argument. This I do not like!
> 
> When I say I give supplements and the skink doesn't want to eat veg, these guys start asking me questions about my set up and what veg I feed, inferring there is obviously some other reason it doesn't want to eat the veg, other than its probably not its fav food. Why do kids want chicken nuggets and chips instead of broccoli shakes????
> 
> ...


Please confirm the name of you previous account on here so that they can be "tied in" as one.


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## MikeO233 (Sep 14, 2014)

Apollo11 said:


> Pointing me to the 'Jahari Window' is also very condescending, but thanks anyway


*Sigh*

No, it really isn't. I am sorry you feel that way. That response actually just re-affirms that it is something you should look into and also my comments in #35.


I have tried my best, but clearly you aren't able to have a reasoned conversation without having an argument / being confrontational, so I'm also out.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

Stephen P said:


> Please confirm the name of you previous account on here so that they can be "tied in" as one.


I can't even remember what email address I had back then so I'm not sure what I can provide?


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

MikeO233 said:


> *Sigh*
> 
> No, it really isn't. I am sorry you feel that way. That response actually just re-affirms that it is something you should look into and also my comments in #35.
> 
> ...


*Sigh*, I'm afraid it really is condescending to tell me I have some sort of issue and can't form a reasoned debate. I am very much capable of doing so. And then not only to do that but then tell me about a psychology study that tells me how I appear to others and I should go away and read this. If you can't see how rude that is then I'm not sure what that says about your social skills.

If you look at the start of the thread, I'm not being confrontational, I'm giving a reasoned argument as to why I use dog food, and actually I'm pretty much the only one who answered the OP question, I told him which brand I use, an gave the contents. Originally I was hoping to learn what others use to see if I could find a better brand, but sadly all the 'idealists' chime in and it descends into a debate on if dog food is good or bad, and that's fine, but then the people who disagree then go through each line of your post and start trying to discredit this, this is when I feel like I need to then defend my position. 

But somehow this thread has now descended into some kind of personal attack on me lol, asking for picks of my set up and then you giving me a psychology lecture.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Apollo11 said:


> I can't even remember what email address I had back then so I'm not sure what I can provide?


The username?


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

Stephen P said:


> The username?


I don't remember, 5-6 years back I would think. If I knew the user name or the email I would have done the 'forgotten details function'. I can't even think what it might have been or the email address I was using. It was a long while ago.


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## silversceptile (Sep 3, 2016)

Thank you everyone! I made this thread for 2 reasons, 1 obviously I'm getting a BTS soon and 2 I wanted to encourage people to share their experience. There is just not enough experience based info on skinks on the internet but loads of care sheets written anonymously. I'm glad that this thread exists so that people in the future may find it and can learn from your experience, I'm also glad you all have conflicting opinions, that's not always a bad thing, because it reminded me how much we still really have to learn about keeping certain animals, Blue Tongues among many other lizards are overshadowed by Cresties, Agamas, Leos and although these are amazing reptiles that we love, that's where scientific study is focused, leaving us, the community to really learn from each other, obviously skinks haven't been in the hobby as long as your geckos and beardies, so this thread really gave me a lot of guidance and I'm sure it'll help many others in the future too.

Thank You!


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Apollo11 said:


> I don't remember, 5-6 years back I would think. If I knew the user name or the email I would have done the 'forgotten details function'. I can't even think what it might have been or the email address I was using. It was a long while ago.


So as not to derail the thread - pm me some clues, such as animals kept, your location, any Christian name you might have posted up, any item sold etc, and somehow we will find you.


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Apollo11 said:


> Your a legend!
> When I make a statement that has nothing at all to do with general husbandry and you then start asking me what my set up is like and for pictures, which veg I use, you are inferring that there is some kind of issue with these and I don't know what I'm doing in general. This is a bit like when someone tells a story about someone in a newspaper and then the people accused try to discredit the person to make them look like they are not telling the truth. Come on you know what you are doing!!!!
> 
> Why do you need pictures of my set up, we are debating whether dog food is any good or not. I have a lovely set up, everything spot on, don't worry. The only thing I do different to you I'm guessing is I give dog food for protein and not insects.
> ...


I think asking for a few photos of the setup was a reasonable request, most members are interested in seeing what others are doing (a picture paints a thousand words, so to speak) and obviously with you having everything just perfect there couldn`t possibly be anything that might need a slight adjustment (criticism), so what`s the problem? 
P.S: I _am a _legend, thanks for noticing!!!


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## Gaz1974 (Nov 5, 2014)

MikeO233 said:


> My BTS loves locusts.
> 
> I also feed her a pinkey as a nice treat every couple of weeks.
> 
> ...



I feed raw liver and kidney. I sometimes do chicken or turkey cooked and unseasoned. I haven't fed beef or lamb and I guess pork is a no no! 
Mine tends to be picky with fruit and veg too. I find that if I put meat and veg in at the same time the veg is untouched but it will scoff the meat, so I intend to alternate one feed of meat to two of veg, but pop in a few locusts from time to time.


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## wagg (Feb 6, 2014)

Would be good to see some pics of the setups in question.


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## Gaz1974 (Nov 5, 2014)

wagg said:


> Would be good to see some pics of the setups in question.


Not quite a setup pic but a nice one of my little fellow sat on my knee investigating some fruit:2thumb:

URL=http://s1367.photobucket.com/user/gaz19741/media/image_zps9m2d4vol.jpeg.html]


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

murrindindi said:


> I think asking for a few photos of the setup was a reasonable request, most members are interested in seeing what others are doing (a picture paints a thousand words, so to speak) and obviously with you having everything just perfect there couldn`t possibly be anything that might need a slight adjustment (criticism), so what`s the problem?
> P.S: I _am a _legend, thanks for noticing!!!


If we are debating set up then yes, of course asking for pics is a reasonable request. But we are talking about dog food as a protein source. you only want to see my set up so you can try and be a know it all and try and pick fault with it in some way! I have already told you what I have, I'm not going to the effort of photographing everything for your gratification, but trust me - spot on - temps/humidity/space/equipment, the diet is fine. Like I said the only thing I do which you would say is not ok is give dog food as a staple.

I know where all this is coming from as well, it's that gout thread. Like I said in my post on that thread I buy decent new equipment myself, however I don't expect everyone to match up to what I have, I understand that some people have limited money and they can make do with less, as long as the conditions are correct. That's what I believe, it's all about what works!

You just want to try and discredit me in some way because you still can't come up with a scientifically sound reason why dog food is not o.k to give to Skinks. I'm still waiting for you to tell me legend! hahaha


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Apollo11;12532241 I understand that some people have limited money and they can make do with less said:


> I simply stated that I personally don`t believe feeding dog food is necessary especially these days, because of the wide variety of more "natural" foods that are readily available. hahaha???
> Discredit you, with an attitude like yours you discredit yourself (everyone wants to attack you, and try and find fault)????


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## Gaz1974 (Nov 5, 2014)

Dudes... Snails are definitely the way forward. Before I had a skink I had to bat them away as far as possible using a tennis racquet! I reckon the buggers used to find their way back and still eat my greens! 

Now I have a snail disposal machine :2thumb: 

Who needs to buy dog food when you have molluscs everywhere for free :2thumb:

I do occasionally feed dog food when out of everything else but it is so much more rewarding watching the little blighter chowing on something natural that you've prepared for it. 

I think the important thing when it comes to dog food is that it's the premium variety that isn't packed out with bone meal and grain. 

To show its gratitude for my attempts to give it a good diet my skink has peed and shat on me tonight:gasp:


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## Fizz (Jan 18, 2014)

Apollo11 said:


> If we are debating set up then yes, of course asking for pics is a reasonable request. But we are talking about dog food as a protein source. you only want to see my set up so you can try and be a know it all and try and pick fault with it in some way! I have already told you what I have, I'm not going to the effort of photographing everything for your gratification, but trust me - spot on - temps/humidity/space/equipment, the diet is fine. Like I said the only thing I do which you would say is not ok is give dog food as a staple.
> 
> I know where all this is coming from as well, it's that gout thread. Like I said in my post on that thread I buy decent new equipment myself, however I don't expect everyone to match up to what I have, I understand that some people have limited money and they can make do with less, as long as the conditions are correct. That's what I believe, it's all about what works!
> 
> You just want to try and discredit me in some way because you still can't come up with a scientifically sound reason why dog food is not o.k to give to Skinks. I'm still waiting for you to tell me legend! hahaha


I always think that if I felt uncomfortable posting pics of any of my set ups that it would be because I know deep down that things arent right 

I dont think asking for set up info is out of line , we are all here to help eachother and I dont see why there would be any issue with giving the set up details if you are aware of them.
Just sticking my oar in as there seem to be alot of tension between you some other users which I dont understand. I havent seen anybody "personally atack" you, and your manner has been extremely argumentative in the recent threads that I have seen.
I choose not to feed my skink dog / cat food as once again it comes into the "adequate" Vs "best" competition and for me "adequate is not good enough". I dont want my animals to survive I want them to live long healthy lives with the enrichment of hunting and stalking prey and yes they should be more than willing to eat veg if it naturally formas part of their diet. Your manner is very defensive and needlessly... no one is out to get you! 

Murrin is one of many regulars who gives a lot of good advice so I find it bizzare that there seems to be a problem between you. We are all here to share and discuss, thats what forums are for Save​


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## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

Surely it is just common sense that feeding a natural food is better than the man made equivalent?

Trying to defend using dog food (for example) seems backwards considering the recent advancements in reptile care.



Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

Apollo11 said:


> If we are debating set up then yes, of course asking for pics is a reasonable request. But we are talking about dog food as a protein source. you only want to see my set up so you can try and be a know it all and try and pick fault with it in some way! I have already told you what I have, I'm not going to the effort of photographing everything for your gratification, but trust me - spot on - temps/humidity/space/equipment, the diet is fine. Like I said the only thing I do which you would say is not ok is give dog food as a staple.
> 
> I know where all this is coming from as well, it's that gout thread. Like I said in my post on that thread I buy decent new equipment myself, however I don't expect everyone to match up to what I have, I understand that some people have limited money and they can make do with less, as long as the conditions are correct. That's what I believe, it's all about what works!
> 
> You just want to try and discredit me in some way because you still can't come up with a scientifically sound reason why dog food is not o.k to give to Skinks. I'm still waiting for you to tell me legend! hahaha


Conversely, why IS dog food good? Hopefully your answer is "scientifically sound".

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

murrindindi said:


> I simply stated that I personally don`t believe feeding dog food is necessary especially these days, because of the wide variety of more "natural" foods that are readily available. hahaha???
> Discredit you, with an attitude like yours you discredit yourself (everyone wants to attack you, and try and find fault)????


Look, I totally get what you are saying about natural food sources. I have told you why I use dog food, the reasons I think it is practical etc, and as long as the lizard is healthy I don't get why dog food is frowned upon. I'm just waiting for some evidence to back up the other side of the argument. 

It's always the same story, when you do something other people don't agree with and yet they can't seem to win the argument, they throw their dummy out the pram and try and attack you personally and make you look incompetent.

I'm not on here to be confrontational, but I have to respond to the persistent condescension and the null hypothesis people seem to have that everyone else on here is a complete incompetent.


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## Fizz (Jan 18, 2014)

Maybe the reason for peopel wanting to argue with you (it seems to be a common occurance so far) is because of the attitude that is carried in your posts. Some things are hard to read in the correct tone so maybe bare that in mind when constructing a post, perhaps we are reading you wrong ?


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

FishForLife2001 said:


> Surely it is just common sense that feeding a natural food is better than the man made equivalent?
> 
> Trying to defend using dog food (for example) seems backwards considering the recent advancements in reptile care.
> 
> ...


I get the argument for feeding 'natural' food, which in your case means insects. I have told you the reasons I don't particularly like giving insects live. It's logical to say that if some food item gives the correct protein requirement, doesn't give adverse health effects to the animal then it's fine to have in the diet, whether man made or 'natural'. 

What are these advancements you speak of?


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

FishForLife2001 said:


> Conversely, why IS dog food good? Hopefully your answer is "scientifically sound".
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


Science is about making conclusions based on evidence. 

My evidence is people all over the world are keeping animals perfectly healthy by feeding dog food as part of a balanced diet. That is the scientific evidence.

If you can tell me why good quality dog food is going to adversely affect my lizards health, with some evidence to back it up, then I will look closely and may reconsider my position.


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## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

Apollo11 said:


> I get the argument for feeding 'natural' food, which in your case means insects. I have told you the reasons I don't particularly like giving insects live. It's logical to say that if some food item gives the correct protein requirement, doesn't give adverse health effects to the animal then it's fine to have in the diet, whether man made or 'natural'.
> 
> What are these advancements you speak of?




Naturalistic enclosures, live plants, natural/safe loose substrates, better UV lighting, better and more accessible nutritional information, a more thorough knowledge of the natural environment and lifestyle of some species, more welfare concerns.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## hamadryad1971 (Jul 8, 2016)

if you posted ur setup pics, no matter the specs,arrangement, furnishing,equipment they would find fault, because u dared mention dog food as a diet, they would find fault.

most of the of the replys were from non bts keepers whose sensibilities u offended.

but simple facts don't lie, bts have been bred multi-generational, on both wet and dry dog food, if that bothers some tough, if that offends some tough. 

being bothered/offended does not change simple facts.

i have kept tiliqua on wet dogfood, i have raised babys on wet dogfood, not because i didn't know any better, or i was lazy, or poor, but because i saw the results in front of me, healthy tiliqua.

ie the type of hands on experience most who decry a particular diet don't have, instead they believe reading some online text somehow gives them experience, and the ability to advise others.

it does not.





Apollo11 said:


> Look, I totally get what you are saying about natural food sources. I have told you why I use dog food, the reasons I think it is practical etc, and as long as the lizard is healthy I don't get why dog food is frowned upon. I'm just waiting for some evidence to back up the other side of the argument.
> 
> It's always the same story, when you do something other people don't agree with and yet they can't seem to win the argument, they throw their dummy out the pram and try and attack you personally and make you look incompetent.
> 
> I'm not on here to be confrontational, but I have to respond to the persistent condescension and the null hypothesis people seem to have that everyone else on here is a complete incompetent.


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## hamadryad1971 (Jul 8, 2016)

natural keeping is far from new, its merely been hijacked by several companies who say they developed it (they did not). but it certainly advances their bank balance to sell u natural dirt that's better than 2005 dirt, and leaps ahead of 1990 dirt



FishForLife2001 said:


> Naturalistic enclosures, live plants, natural/safe loose substrates, better UV lighting, better and more accessible nutritional information, a more thorough knowledge of the natural environment and lifestyle of some species, more welfare concerns.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

Apollo11 said:


> Science is about making conclusions based on evidence.
> 
> My evidence is people all over the world are keeping animals perfectly healthy by feeding dog food as part of a balanced diet. That is the scientific evidence.
> 
> If you can tell me why good quality dog food is going to adversely affect my lizards health, with some evidence to back it up, then I will look closely and may reconsider my position.



How is this evidence? It is not generally possible to determine an animals health through videos and images, obviously.
You have the papers to prove that these animals are not deficient in anything, and function properly? 

Why should I provide evidence to prove you wrong if you can't even provide evidence to prove your opinion is correct? 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

hamadryad1971 said:


> natural keeping is far from new, its merely been hijacked by several companies who say they developed it (they did not). but it certainly advances their bank balance to sell u natural dirt that's better than 2005 dirt, and leaps ahead of 1990 dirt


I was thinking more about the more widespread use of natural keeping techniques but good point.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## hamadryad1971 (Jul 8, 2016)

so u want evidence dogfood is good before u provide evidence its bad.





FishForLife2001 said:


> How is this evidence? It is not generally possible to determine an animals health through videos and images, obviously.
> You have the papers to prove that these animals are not deficient in anything, and function properly?
> 
> Why should I provide evidence to prove you wrong if you can't even provide evidence to prove your opinion is correct?
> ...


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## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

hamadryad1971 said:


> so u want evidence dogfood is good before u provide evidence its bad.
> 
> ie ur position is based on nothing, or worse, the internet


I want evidence it is good considering people are claiming that it is, I am simply trying to gain new information from more experienced keepers. 

It 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## hamadryad1971 (Jul 8, 2016)

so u want evidence dogfood is good before u provide evidence its bad.

knowing full well neither of u can backup that claim.

so essentially "dogfood is bad, because" and if you should question the "because" u need scientific papers to backup ur argument?

where is ur evidence its bad, ur science, ur papers, ur data

because there are countless keépers with healthy bts on dogfood in the pro camp (visit any large tiliqua forum), what have u got?




FishForLife2001 said:


> I want evidence it is good considering people are claiming that it is, I am simply trying to gain new information from more experienced keepers.
> 
> It
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## hamadryad1971 (Jul 8, 2016)

where is the evidence cresties do well mrp diets? countless generations of cb baby cresties

where is the evidence blueys do well on dogfood, litter after multigenerational litter of cb blueys, 

but because it has a dog on the can ur mistreating ur animal?, u need A++ bloodwork before u dare make a forum post re feeding a bluey dogfood.

u can feed blueys on whatever the hell u want but if ur going to tell someone thier diet choice is downright bad u better have some godamn evidence instead of a bruised ego or offended sensibility's or just a plain simple different way of keeping.

this thread has no facts to dissuade apollo, silversceptile or anyone else, only "because"







FishForLife2001 said:


> I want evidence it is good considering people are claiming that it is, I am simply trying to gain new information from more experienced keepers.
> 
> It
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

hamadryad1971 said:


> so u want evidence dogfood is good before u provide evidence its bad.
> 
> knowing full well neither of u can backup that claim.
> 
> ...


If you have nothing to contribute other than this grammatically void rambling filled with ignorance masquerading as opinion, then please, stop spamming and derailing this thread.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

Fizz said:


> I always think that if I felt uncomfortable posting pics of any of my set ups that it would be because I know deep down that things arent right
> 
> I dont think asking for set up info is out of line , we are all here to help eachother and I dont see why there would be any issue with giving the set up details if you are aware of them.
> Just sticking my oar in as there seem to be alot of tension between you some other users which I dont understand. I havent seen anybody "personally atack" you, and your manner has been extremely argumentative in the recent threads that I have seen.
> ...


I don't feel uncomfortable posting pics of my set up lol, I already described what I have previously. My set up is spot on, but you and others would try and criticise it regardless just for the sake of it. But I know its just right, so I don't need other peoples opinion on it lol.
We are debating dog food, not set up. I'm not going to give in to certain individuals goading so they can try and discredit me in some way to win an argument about a totally unrelated subject. 

It is a personal attack when people are condescending and question your ability to make a logical argument. It is an attack when people try to find ways to discredit you with some other non related argument.

Your condescending also, I too want my animal to have a long and healthy life, there just isn't an argument as to why feeding dog food won't achieve this goal!!!!!

As for stalking prey, well my experience of my skink is that he will catch a couple of the big crickets at first, then the rest will hide somewhere he can't get like under the water dish and then he will go and sit in his hide hungry and frustrated, and eating a dish of worms doesn't require much hunting. I am all for natural behaviour, but my experience of live insects didn't really make me see it as the huge benefit you seem to think it is.

I give the correct veg, it's not a question of it being the wrong veggies or fruit, or that the conditions in my enclosure are incorrect. For whatever reason, it will go for the insects and meat first and maybe nibble at the veg a bit, it never seemed to want to eat it if other options available, and so I felt it was for me to try and find a way for it to eat the correct proportions of veggies so I had more control. This is not a new phenomenon, I read lots of others skinks are the same with veg, especially Tanimbar's which I have. Even someone on this thead has mentioned similar experiences.

I don't have any problem with Murrin, it's his tactics of trying to win an argument and his condescension that have annoyed me.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

FishForLife2001 said:


> Naturalistic enclosures, live plants, natural/safe loose substrates, better UV lighting, better and more accessible nutritional information, a more thorough knowledge of the natural environment and lifestyle of some species, more welfare concerns.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


Oh, those advancements hahahahahahahaha


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## hamadryad1971 (Jul 8, 2016)

and u have contributed what?

iv raised tiliqua, have u?

iv raised tiliqua, oz and new guinea on dogfood, have u?




Zux said:


> If you have nothing to contribute other than this grammatically void rambling filled with ignorance masquerading as opinion, then please, stop spamming and derailing this thread.


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## hamadryad1971 (Jul 8, 2016)

oh thats right, ur contribution is people feed tiliqua dogfood because their lazy.






Zux said:


> If you have nothing to contribute other than this grammatically void rambling filled with ignorance masquerading as opinion, then please, stop spamming and derailing this thread.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

hamadryad1971 said:


> natural keeping is far from new, its merely been hijacked by several companies who say they developed it (they did not). but it certainly advances their bank balance to sell u natural dirt that's better than 2005 dirt, and leaps ahead of 1990 dirt


Thats how you make an argument! No come back!:notworthy:


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

FishForLife2001 said:


> How is this evidence? It is not generally possible to determine an animals health through videos and images, obviously.
> You have the papers to prove that these animals are not deficient in anything, and function properly?
> 
> Why should I provide evidence to prove you wrong if you can't even provide evidence to prove your opinion is correct?
> ...


I haven't just watched videos lol, I know other people who have reptiles, the guy I know who owns a reptile shop told me its fine, he knows people who have always kept blue tongues on pet food and their animals are fine. and healthy, living long lives.

Can you show me examples of animals who have been adversely affected by dog food being fed as part of the diet?


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

FishForLife2001 said:


> I want evidence it is good considering people are claiming that it is, I am simply trying to gain new information from more experienced keepers.
> 
> It
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


There are no scientific studies on either side of the fence. Nobody is saying dog food is the ideal diet for BTS, however there are keepers who have used it for years and have perfectly healthy animals, so I consider it a viable 'option' as a protein source. There are many other options.

Some people seem to say it's not an appropriate option but as yet I have not heard any valid reason why, or evidence of animals with health problems caused by eating dog food.


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## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

hamadryad1971 said:


> so u want evidence dogfood is good before u provide evidence its bad.
> 
> knowing full well neither of u can backup that claim.
> 
> ...


I am not wasting my time trying to understand this, maybe if you make it legible I will.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

Apollo11 said:


> Oh, those advancements hahahahahahahaha


Not sure what this comment means, but are you seriously saying these aren't advancements? 

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## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

Apollo11 said:


> Thats how you make an argument! No come back!:notworthy:


Because it wasn't particularly relevant to what I said.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

Apollo11 said:


> I haven't just watched videos lol, I know other people who have reptiles, the guy I know who owns a reptile shop told me its fine, he knows people who have always kept blue tongues on pet food and their animals are fine. and healthy, living long lives.
> 
> Can you show me examples of animals who have been adversely affected by dog food being fed as part of the diet?


No, I have no way of providing examples through a forum. 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

Apollo11 said:


> There are no scientific studies on either side of the fence. Nobody is saying dog food is the ideal diet for BTS, however there are keepers who have used it for years and have perfectly healthy animals, so I consider it a viable 'option' as a protein source. There are many other options.
> 
> Some people seem to say it's not an appropriate option but as yet I have not heard any valid reason why, or evidence of animals with health problems caused by eating dog food.


Surely without evidence something is ok it is best to stick to the norm (the more natural diet in this case) instead of taking the risk of using the other (dog food) option just because you can. 

Busy right now will finish later 


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

Apollo11 said:


> You just want to try and discredit me in some way because you still can't come up with a scientifically sound reason why dog food is not o.k to give to Skinks. I'm still waiting for you to tell me legend! hahaha


 I see no scientifically sound reason why you would feed dog food to skinks?!


If you look at the ingredients in *some* dog food, you will find scientifically proven cancer-causing chemicals used as a preservative. You will also find E numbers are sometimes used, all have been scientifically proven as not being beneficial to the consumer. There are no scientific studies relating to skinks and dog food because there's no money behind it. You will find very few real studies comparing BARF diets and processed dog food diets - the funds certainly aren't going to be coming from the dog food companies!!

If there are no scientific studies looking for what you want you have to look further afield. I found a study that shows the digestibility and concentration of macro and micro nutrients is much higher in fresh food rather than by-products for dogs. Common sense might say that this would be no different for any other animal fed a processed vs fresh diet. You may want to look at how well omnivores can break down some carbohydrates such as rice and potato (not something skinks would usually consume). 

I still maintain that feeding dog food to skinks comes down to laziness.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

FishForLife2001 said:


> No, I have no way of providing examples through a forum.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


Well I think your argument is dead then, don't you?


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

FishForLife2001 said:


> Surely without evidence something is ok it is best to stick to the norm (the more natural diet in this case) instead of taking the risk of using the other (dog food) option just because you can.
> 
> Busy right now will finish later
> 
> ...


Why is it a risk? Like I said, plenty of examples of healthy animals which have dog food as part of their diet.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

vgorst said:


> I see no scientifically sound reason why you would feed dog food to skinks?!
> 
> 
> If you look at the ingredients in *some* dog food, you will find scientifically proven cancer-causing chemicals used as a preservative. You will also find E numbers are sometimes used, all have been scientifically proven as not being beneficial to the consumer. There are no scientific studies relating to skinks and dog food because there's no money behind it. You will find very few real studies comparing BARF diets and processed dog food diets - the funds certainly aren't going to be coming from the dog food companies!!
> ...


It's not out of laziness. People who give ground turkey are not less 'lazy' than someone who gives dog food, yet I don't see you hounding those guys. I have stated why I use dog food, it's not just convenience.

We all know the cheap dog food is not going to be a good diet for any animal even most dogs. But we are talking about the decent quality dog foods, If you can read the ingredients and it has good meat content and no harmful E numbers etc then why is it going to be unhealthy for the lizard? We don't know about how the digestive system copes with complex carbohydrates but the proportions of these are not that high in the good quality dog foods so I don't see why it would be an issue.

It's not like I have just invented this idea, people have fed it for years to skinks and many animals lived perfectly healthy existences with dog food as part of their diet. 

Snails can carry parasites, crickets can eat the eye lids off your skink? There are potential problems with feeding live foods as well, if the argument against has descended into being ultra cautious, then these items should be off the menu by that logic!


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## Panthraz (Feb 20, 2011)

Apollo11 said:


> It's not out of laziness. People who give ground turkey are not less 'lazy' than someone who gives dog food, yet I don't see you hounding those guys. I have stated why I use dog food, it's not just convenience.
> 
> We all know the cheap dog food is not going to be a good diet for any animal even most dogs. But we are talking about the decent quality dog foods, If you can read the ingredients and it has good meat content and no harmful E numbers etc then why is it going to be unhealthy for the lizard? We don't know about how the digestive system copes with complex carbohydrates but the proportions of these are not that high in the good quality dog foods so I don't see why it would be an issue.
> 
> ...


As stated I feed ground minced turkey as a staple not through 
laziness but because I know it is 100% meat rather than the 50% "meat derivative" 
you state is in your chosen brand of dog food. Surely this is a better option?

I can honestly say everything I feed to my lizards I would happily eat myself but I 
would surely draw the line at dog food!

I do not feed crickets, not through fear of eye lid loss but because dubia roaches are
a far better alternative. I do feed snails which I breed myself, thus avoiding parasite, 
pesticide and toxin issues.

Try not to be set on "why is this wrong?" and be open minded to the possibility that 
there is a better option which will also meet your needs and, more importantly, 
potentially promote better health for your pet.


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

Apollo11 said:


> It's not out of laziness. People who give ground turkey are not less 'lazy' than someone who gives dog food, yet I don't see you hounding those guys. I have stated why I use dog food, it's not just convenience.
> 
> We all know the cheap dog food is not going to be a good diet for any animal even most dogs. But we are talking about the decent quality dog foods, If you can read the ingredients and it has good meat content and no harmful E numbers etc then why is it going to be unhealthy for the lizard? We don't know about how the digestive system copes with complex carbohydrates but the proportions of these are not that high in the good quality dog foods so I don't see why it would be an issue.
> 
> ...


I think mixing your own food as I suggested earlier (not purely using minced turkey) is less lazy then grabbing a tin. 

Thing is, you didn't use a good quality dog food at the beginning of this thread. You used Cesar, which uses very low quality ingredients (hence by-products being a main ingredient). I myself mentioned that if you had to use dog food to use a good quality one


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## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

Apollo11 said:


> Well I think your argument is dead then, don't you?


By that logic so is yours!!

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

FishForLife2001 said:


> By that logic so is yours!!
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


The ignorant are not bound by logic as you and I are, sadly.

You fine people are wasting your time attempting to educate or even reason with this individual, though I admire your tenacity all the same.

:2thumb:


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## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

Zux said:


> The ignorant are not bound by logic as you and I are, sadly.
> 
> You fine people are wasting your time attempting to educate or even reason with this individual, though I admire your tenacity all the same.
> 
> :2thumb:


Careful Zux, you might upset the "educated person"! You might trigger an even more depressing stream of illogicality from said person (if such a feat is actually possible).

Seriously though reading back through the most recent replies I wont waste my time either.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## silversceptile (Sep 3, 2016)

BTS are truly an animal that we have to learn to care for based on the experience of others and yourself, it isn't a popular enough reptile in the pet world to attract a scientific opinion, for example nobody argues what you feed a leopard gecko, because leopard geckos are immensely popular, so many studies have been executed around the husbandry of that species. Being that at this point I do not own a Blue Tongue I'm going to approach this how I have with other reptiles I know and have experience with, I'm not taking sides, I'm going to look at this from different perspectives. Like with all reptiles, natural will almost always be the best you could offer, because that animal you're keeping has evolved to live off of this stuff in the wild, HOWEVER I'm going to express my opinion that the against dog food argument is silly but not completely wrong, If you're against dog foods being fed to reptiles then that's absolutely fine and your argument is partly right, but only partly. There are sooo many brands of dog food and all of them contain many different ingredients so even if one brand is terrible for them there are still many more that have been formulated completely differently that's why some breeders and skink owners have had happy healthy skinks living from dog food (like one of you said you have, can't remember who) because they did the research to make sure this dog food is ok for them. Again like I said BTS are an experience based topic and obviously I don't own one yet. I just thought I'd give my opinion based on what I've learnt and other reptiles I've owned. I don't have experience with this specific animal though so any criticism I will gladly read. :2thumb:


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

Zux said:


> The ignorant are not bound by logic as you and I are, sadly.
> 
> You fine people are wasting your time attempting to educate or even reason with this individual, though I admire your tenacity all the same.
> 
> :2thumb:


I am not ignorant, nor do I need 'educating'. This is the problem with you people, you think you are the expert and you need to preach to everyone.

You can't win the argument so your throwing your dummy out the pram.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

vgorst said:


> I think mixing your own food as I suggested earlier (not purely using minced turkey) is less lazy then grabbing a tin.
> 
> Thing is, you didn't use a good quality dog food at the beginning of this thread. You used Cesar, which uses very low quality ingredients (hence by-products being a main ingredient). I myself mentioned that if you had to use dog food to use a good quality one


I do concede that Caesar is not the best, but its not harmful. But that's partly why I came on this thread, so I could find a better alternative. It's just descended into 'you shouldn't give dog food period because it's bad'.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

FishForLife2001 said:


> Careful Zux, you might upset the "educated person"! You might trigger an even more depressing stream of illogicality from said person (if such a feat is actually possible).
> 
> Seriously though reading back through the most recent replies I wont waste my time either.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


Good, you can't win the argument so go home. All you can do is make unsubstantiated statements about how 'bad' something is with no evidence.


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

Apollo11 said:


> I am not ignorant, nor do I need 'educating'. This is the problem with you people, you think you are the expert and you need to preach to everyone.
> 
> You can't win the argument so your throwing your dummy out the pram.


There is no argument, this was a discussion. 

Your incapability to understand things which have been explained to you 5+ times coupled with the fact you constantly alienate yourself by suggesting you are being 'attacked' or 'condescended to' is why you cannot get along with other members and why almost everybody you have engaged with is now ignoring you, including some of the forums most helpful and informed members.

55 Posts n two days and not _one_ was worth reading. 

Nobody here is interested in you displaying your inferiority complex and attempting to make things a personal argument, stop projecting your insecurities onto others, its pathetic.


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Zux said:


> There is no argument, this was a discussion.
> 
> Your incapability to understand things which have been explained to you 5+ times coupled with the fact you constantly alienate yourself by suggesting you are being 'attacked' or 'condescended to' is why you cannot get along with other members and why almost everybody you have engaged with is now ignoring you, including some of the forums most helpful and informed members.
> 
> ...


Gee, I wish I`d said that!!


----------



## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

silversceptile said:


> BTS are truly an animal that we have to learn to care for based on the experience of others and yourself, it isn't a popular enough reptile in the pet world to attract a scientific opinion


Hi, I don`t know about here in the U.K, but I can assure you the Blue tongued skink is an extremely commonly kept lizard in Australia (and in America from what I see on their reptile forums). 
There are scientific studies on them if you search the internet, also a number of books containing info on their biology and captive care.


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## silversceptile (Sep 3, 2016)

murrindindi said:


> Hi, I don`t know about here in the U.K, but I can assure you the Blue tongued skink is an extremely commonly kept lizard in Australia (and in America from what I see on their reptile forums).
> There are scientific studies on them if you search the internet, also a number of books containing info on their biology and captive care.


Do you have any links you can give me? Blue Tongues are pretty rare in the UK so info can be difficult to find sometimes.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

Zux said:


> There is no argument, this was a discussion.
> 
> Your incapability to understand things which have been explained to you 5+ times coupled with the fact you constantly alienate yourself by suggesting you are being 'attacked' or 'condescended to' is why you cannot get along with other members and why almost everybody you have engaged with is now ignoring you, including some of the forums most helpful and informed members.
> 
> ...


I don't mean argument like man and wife arguing, I mean like you have a topic and you have 2 sides of the argument. That comment alone just shows me you have are not worth listening to, what a joke! You need to go back to secondary school.

This just reaffirms my point, throwing the dummy out the pram because zero evidence to back up what you say.

I don't have an 'incapacity' to understand anything I have an honours degree, what do you have? If its more than 3 GCSE's I would be surprised. you haven't put a convincing argument forward at all so to say I have been told 5 times is a farce, you can keep telling me unsubstantiated claims until you are blue in the face, I want valid justified reasons not opinions based on nothing. 

I don't have an iferiority complex, and i'm not insecure. The tactics being used and the language used makes it obvious whats going on. The problem is I'm not an idiot and your tactics have not worked, and you argument is dead without any valid evidence to back up your views.


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

murrindindi said:


> Hi, I don`t know about here in the U.K, but I can assure you the Blue tongued skink is an extremely commonly kept lizard in Australia (and in America from what I see on their reptile forums).
> There are scientific studies on them if you search the internet, also a number of books containing info on their biology and captive care.


If there are all these scientific studies Murrin, why can't any of you give a scientific reason why dog food is so terrible????????

Why don't you cite one to back up your opinions???


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

Zux said:


> 55 Posts n two days and not _one_ was worth reading.


All my posts are worth reading, that's why you take the time to go and count them all hahahahahahaha.:whip:

Go and have a look on the snake threads, a good one on there!


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## Apollo11 (Sep 4, 2016)

murrindindi said:


> Gee, I wish I`d said that!!


You wish you had made a silly comment too Murrin?


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Apollo11 said:


> I already described what I have previously. My set up is spot on, but you and others would try and criticise it regardless just for the sake of it. But I know its just right, so I don't need other peoples opinion on it lol.
> We are debating dog food, not set up. I'm not going to give in to certain individuals goading so they can try and discredit me in some way to win an argument about a totally unrelated subject.
> I don't have any problem with Murrin, it's his tactics of trying to win an argument and his condescension that have annoyed me.


There is no "argument", just you shouting "foul" because a number of members have disagreed with you. I have stated I`ve kept and bred these animals without ever feeling the need to offer them canned dog food (that`s a statement of fact, not an argument, nor is it condescending)?

If the more experienced keepers notice something in your setup that may need adjusting (even very, very slighty) surely that would help not only you and your animal but many others, too. We all know there`s a veritable mountain of misinformation on the internet, and perthaps you yourself have fallen foul of bad info (quite possible, even taking into account your biology studies at college).
Perhaps you could start a new thread offering advise to others on the captive care of the Blue tongued skink with a few photos of the whole setup and details of the conditions (other than you stating everything is "spot on").. 
Thanks in anticipation! :2thumb:


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

Apollo11 said:


> All my posts are worth reading, that's why you take the time to go and count them all hahahahahahaha.:whip:


I'm pleased you are amused, but your post count is next to your name :blush:.



Apollo11 said:


> That comment alone just shows me you have are not worth listening to, what a joke! You need to go back to secondary school.
> 
> 
> I don't have an 'incapacity' to understand anything
> ...



People have given you all the advice they can in order to help you resolve the on-going problems with your Skinks diet, they would have gladly helped you fix the issues with your enclosure also, but you were too proud to link a picture for fear of ridicule. 

You have chosen to dispute the advice you have been given based on nothing, as is your right, as an ignorant person feigning arrogance. 

You are now spending essentially every free moment spamming numerous threads with this drivel, whats the point? All anybody need have done is to read a single post in which you attempt to make a point in order to ascertain you have less than no idea what you are talking about. 

Perhaps it might be an idea to 'lose' this account info also, if only for your own contentment, its clear you are unhappy here. 
Either way, I will re-join the other members in ignoring you henceforth.


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Apollo11 said:


> You wish you had made a silly comment too Murrin?


No, I never, ever make silly comments (legend`s are not allowed, unlike mere mortals such as yourself)..


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

murrindindi said:


> We all know there`s a veritable mountain of misinformation on the internet, and perthaps you yourself have fallen foul of bad info (quite possible, even taking into account your biology studies at college).
> Perhaps you could start a new thread offering advise to others on the captive care of the Blue tongued skink with a few photos of the whole setup and details of the conditions (other than you stating everything is "spot on")..
> Thanks in anticipation! :2thumb:


What wonderful idea !


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## Panthraz (Feb 20, 2011)

Zux said:


> What wonderful idea !


I agree, I do not have an Honours Degree, I, regrettably, can be prone to idiocy on occasion 
and I have less than three GCSE's but I am smart enough to know I'd be a fool to pass up 
on an opportunity to see the surroundings someone blessed with the above attributes is capable of providing.


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## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

Apollo, is that you?










Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## silversceptile (Sep 3, 2016)

I don't think Apollo will be able to grace humanity with his "perfect setup" because he's been banned. I can't say I'm surprised, although my account is new his account was 4 days old and he somehow made himself infamous for negativity and unhelpful comments on multiple threads and boards, I'm guessing the mods were pretty pissed about seeing his less than insightful comments everywhere...


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

silversceptile said:


> I don't think Apollo will be able to grace humanity with his "perfect setup" because he's been banned. I can't say I'm surprised, although my account is new his account was 4 days old and he somehow made himself infamous for negativity and unhelpful comments on multiple threads and boards, I'm guessing the mods were pretty pissed about seeing his less than insightful comments everywhere...


Thanks for letting us know mate, I'm sorry he hijacked your thread in this manner.


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## silversceptile (Sep 3, 2016)

Zux said:


> Thanks for letting us know mate, I'm sorry he hijacked your thread in this manner.


Haha no it's fine, i still learned what I needed to know, I was more shocked about his destructive and inconsiderate behaviour. I occasionally just visited this site when I needed to learn something but I thought I'd create an account since I'm coming here more regularly because I learn a lot from it :2thumb:

Thanks!


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

silversceptile said:


> Haha no it's fine, i still learned what I needed to know, I was more shocked about his destructive and inconsiderate behaviour. I occasionally just visited this site when I needed to learn something but I thought I'd create an account since I'm coming here more regularly because I learn a lot from it :2thumb:
> 
> Thanks!


Awesome to hear !


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

But guys, he was so educated... :whistling2:


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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

Like to thank the mods for making the effort for shifting though all the posts in this thread and editing out the name calling Apollo did. Thank you for keeping this forum a pleasant place.

To get back ontopic; is your question answered silversceptile?


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## silversceptile (Sep 3, 2016)

Creed said:


> Like to thank the mods for making the effort for shifting though all the posts in this thread and editing out the name calling Apollo did. Thank you for keeping this forum a pleasant place.
> 
> To get back ontopic; is your question answered silversceptile?


Yes, I haven't entirely decided on the diet overall but I most likely won't be making dog or cat food part of the diet, I'll always be on the look out to see one day if a dog food brand has healthy ingredients, but ground meats will be the way to go by far : victory:

Thanks!


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## Fizz (Jan 18, 2014)

Zux said:


> There is no argument, this was a discussion.
> 
> Your incapability to understand things which have been explained to you 5+ times coupled with the fact you constantly alienate yourself by suggesting you are being 'attacked' or 'condescended to' is why you cannot get along with other members and why almost everybody you have engaged with is now ignoring you, including some of the forums most helpful and informed members.
> 
> ...


^^^^^^^ 
Well said. There is clearly no discussing anything here so I will back out. Just a note to apollo though - I dont believe there was any argument here except for the one you brought along and insisted upon, what I saw was everyone else pretty much having a discussion about the topic. 

Sometimes when your statements seem to rub not just one or two, but infact multiple people up the wrong way you have to consider that maybe the problem isnt with everyone else but may lie in your own attitude. Something to think on ?


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

silversceptile said:


> Do you have any links you can give me? Blue Tongues are pretty rare in the UK so info can be difficult to find sometimes.


Hi, here`s a link to an excellent book on Aussie skinks (including Blue tongues). The author (Dr. Danny Brown) is a very experienced and knowledgeable exotics vet, if you would like to contact him via email I can PM you his details. I`ve contacted him several times, he`s always quick to respond with helpful advise. You may be able to get the book from a library, all you need is the ISBN number...
Even if you acquire the New Guinea subspecies the captive care is fairly similar, I`ll give you another book title shortly.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...AqOCX-Ijjx2Nd2jbAm4x6Q&bvm=bv.131783435,d.bGs


Here`s another excellent book, I have a copy and will give you the ISBN number if you`d like to try and get a copy from the library (or `ll link you to a website you can purchase a copy from)...
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...-Aigc_HJVq6repaXfZJdZg&bvm=bv.131783435,d.bGs


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## silversceptile (Sep 3, 2016)

murrindindi said:


> Hi, here`s a link to an excellent book on Aussie skinks (including Blue tongues). The author (Dr. Danny Brown) is a very experienced and knowledgeable exotics vet, if you would like to contact him via email I can PM you his details. I`ve contacted him several times, he`s always quick to respond with helpful advise. You may be able to get the book from a library, all you need is the ISBN number...
> Even if you acquire the New Guinea subspecies the captive care is fairly similar, I`ll give you another book title shortly.
> https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...AqOCX-Ijjx2Nd2jbAm4x6Q&bvm=bv.131783435,d.bGs


Thank you very much! This is very helpful! :notworthy: It's very hard to find reliable info on BTS in the UK as they're one of the rarer reptiles here.


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Here are the ISBN numbers, this is all you need either to take to a library in order they get a copy in (if they don`t already have one) or from any decent bookstore if you wish to buy them... You don`t even need to give them the titles, just the ISBN number.
"A Guide to Australian Skinks in Captivity" (Dr. Danny Brown)...
ISBN-13: 978-0987244758

"Keeping and Breeding Australian Lizards" (Editor, Mike Swan)...
ISBN-13:978-0980366716


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## MikeO233 (Sep 14, 2014)

silversceptile said:


> I don't think Apollo will be able to grace humanity with his "perfect setup" because he's been banned


I reported the posts when they started getting personal requesting a lock.

I'm actually pleased with this outcome as I feel comfortable to come back and post again. Was a real shame I felt I had to leave the conversation.


I made a slurry for my BTS today. 50% Turkey, around 10% Kale, 30% Peas and Carrots and 10% Mango and Blueberry. I added some calcium powder.

What do you guys think to that mix?

I mushed it all up with a hand mixer. She ate THE LOT. It actually smelt rather nice, although It looked a little like newborn baby poop. Never seen her eat as much in one go.....obviously liked it!


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

MikeO233 said:


> I reported the posts when they started getting personal requesting a lock.
> 
> I'm actually pleased with this outcome as I feel comfortable to come back and post again. Was a real shame I felt I had to leave the conversation.
> 
> ...


That makes sense, I considered doing similar myself earlier in the thread, but I felt sorry for the chap at the time. Either way, glad you're back.

That mix sounds good, I think the key, as with all captive diets, is providing as much variation, within the range of foods we know to be healthy, as possible. 

It appears both you and the Skink have similar tastes :2thumb:.


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## MikeO233 (Sep 14, 2014)

Hah yes - The only thing I had to go out and buy was the turkey as I tend to eat more chicken and fish than turkey.

The rest was all stuff we eat, or have in for other lizards anyway, so it worked out well.

I've done the aforementioned ice cube tray job with it, so got about a weeks worth made up for a few quid - Not bad at all!

It's actually pretty good getting all that in, as we often don't use up everything before it goes off because of the huge packet sizes stuff comes in but you can be sure she will purely eat the protein when all offered separately. 


I just wonder if she is going to have stinky green poo now.... I guess I will find out tomorrow. Ha!


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## wagg (Feb 6, 2014)

As a outsider of this thread i would like to know what brands of dog food people are using. I dont see any harm in shareing this info. As im off il go and have a look at them in the shop and see their ingrediets and contents ect.... ive just switched my dog over from tinned and kibble to fresh today.


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## ExoAnimalBre (Apr 11, 2016)

From what I read people were ganging up on Apollo with no facts just their opinions. Then trying to add that his set up is bad because they disagreed with his opinion on feeding dog food to skinks. I don't agree with Apollo name calling but it was pretty much caused by some people. From my experience there is nothing wrong with some brands of dog food. I used to live in a few different European countries and lots of breeders and keepers of bts used dog food with preety good results. Everyone has their own opinion but you shouldnt mock someone because of that. No opinion is wrong.


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

ExoAnimalBre said:


> From what I read people were ganging up on Apollo with no facts just their opinions. Then trying to add that his set up is bad because they disagreed with his opinion on feeding dog food to skinks. I don't agree with Apollo name calling but it was pretty much caused by some people. From my experience there is nothing wrong with some brands of dog food. I used to live in a few different European countries and lots of breeders and keepers of bts used dog food with preety good results. Everyone has their own opinion but you shouldnt mock someone because of that. No opinion is wrong.


The Apollo situation has been resolved now, I'm certain nobody here wishes to discuss that individual any further.

If you feel comfortable following he and the keepers who continue to feed dog food to reptiles in spite of all logic, well, you read the thread, you know the consensus, there is no good reason to do that other than to save money and time, its as simple as that. 

Nobody mocked him for having his opinion, and an opinion absolutely _can_ be wrong when dealing with matters of fact such as these.


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## Fizz (Jan 18, 2014)

Indeed. I saw no body mocking Apollo or his choice, or infact his set up. The set up question was relavant to his comments from what I saw. Im glad it has been resolved as there was a nasty atmosphere around some areas of the forum the last few days. 

Now we can get back to proper discussion. Back to the dog food debate . I wouldnt choose to use dog food for a BTS (or for my berber) I dont have any evidence that it isnt good for them but I lean towards a more natural diet and would be put off by preservatives . colourings etc that might be used in tinned dog food, and there is liekwise no evidence of dog food being highly suitable. That said ... each to their own and if someone has researched and decided that they are happy to use it then I certainly dont think badly of them.

I am interested on the mixes that people are making though so I will stay tuned in Save​


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## wagg (Feb 6, 2014)

I dont like the idea of dog food for skinks. I dont own one but to me its similar to when people use to think it was ok to feed baby food ect... to creaties. Why lol but there we are. Each to there own.


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## ExoAnimalBre (Apr 11, 2016)

I respect your opinion not like some other people.


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

wagg said:


> I dont like the idea of dog food for skinks. I dont own one but to me its similar to when people use to think it was ok to feed baby food ect... to creaties. Why lol but there we are. Each to there own.


Many of those practices were born in the time when we, as a very new community, were merely trying to enable the, at the time very exotic, animals to survive in captivity.

The problems nowadays occur, when people simply refuse to take heed of our hobby's advances in both tech, husbandry practices and species knowledge, and they insist on practicing those same old bad habits.

As has been demonstrated in this thread beautifully, those same keepers often mistake an animal who appears to 'outwardly function' for a 'thriving' one, this is most often not the case.

Unfortunately for their pets, in order for them to accept this reality they want to see a sick or dead animal as proof the practice is a bad one, and because of the hardy nature of a reptile, this is rarely the outcome, thus the practices go on with this minority. 

In other words, they presume not visibly sick equates to healthy, which is most foolish and it is their animals who pay the price for that ignorance.


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## Tiliqua (Dec 6, 2008)

Hi, I am a successful small scale breeder of blue tongue skinks. I'm a Recommended Breeder (only one in the UK) on the bluetongueskinks.org website. Produced 49 healthy babies this year. There is plenty of evidence that dog food is a good quality food item for blue tongue skinks and that is why I use it a staple with my animals.


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

Tiliqua said:


> Hi, I am a successful small scale breeder of blue tongue skinks. I'm a Recommended Breeder (only one in the UK) on the bluetongueskinks.org website. Produced 49 healthy babies this year. There is plenty of evidence that dog food is a good quality food item for blue tongue skinks and that is why I use it a staple with my animals.


Hi, with respect, that means little.

As a breeder, you will surely know that one can get away with all manner of poor husbandry choices and still have animals which go on to reproduce.

If there is plenty of evidence that _"dog food is a good quality food item for blue tongue skinks" _(how one could possibly determine the validity of a statement so broad I dont know), I am certain everybody reading this would be thrilled to see that.

As for your stating you use it as a staple based on that 'evidence', well I will refrain from commenting on that in lieu of the aforementioned.

@ExoAnimalBre Thanks for that mate, I read it, inspired as always.


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## Tiliqua (Dec 6, 2008)

Zux said:


> Hi, with respect, that means little.
> 
> As a breeder, you will surely know that one can get away with all manner of poor husbandry choices and still have animals which go on to reproduce.
> 
> ...


Well its clear that you've made up your mind on the issue. In fact you know you are just _so _right that you feel that it is ok to talk down to people. Blue tongues are not easy to breed and you cannot make poor husbandry choices and breed them what ever you do. 

The thrilling evidence is that many of the world's top breeders use dog food for their skinks. Not just breeders, but regular keepers too. I have raised animals on it, virtually never had any health issues, and my oldest animal is approx. 30 years old. 

Can I ask what your personal experience is of working with blue tongue skinks?


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

Tiliqua said:


> Well its clear that you've made up your mind on the issue. In fact you know you are just _so _right that you feel that it is ok to talk down to people. Blue tongues are not easy to breed and you cannot make poor husbandry choices and breed them what ever you do.
> 
> The thrilling evidence is that many of the world's top breeders use dog food for their skinks. Not just breeders, but regular keepers too. I have raised animals on it, virtually never had any health issues, and my oldest animal is approx. 30 years old.
> 
> Can I ask what your personal experience is of working with blue tongue skinks?


I dont see how my mind is anymore made up than yours, frankly.

You feel you cannot make bad husbandry choices and get away with it, but that is exactly what you have been doing by cutting the corners you are.

I did not intend to "talk down" to you, you may note I elected up to now, _not_ to point out the fact that one could simply PM and request to be the lofty 'second of two, recommended breeders in the UK' on that forum...

The fact that breeders and keepers have and still do make _lazy_ and _unhealthy_ choices in caring for their reptiles is neither thrilling nor evidence, for the record. 

People that do this, do it to save money and time, this is proven outright by the very fact there is literally *no evidence* to support the practice other than "mine is still alive mate" and yet people insist on still doing it. Meanwhile there are myriad reasons why the practice is ill advised even for the animals the products are designed for.

You can ask what my experience is in caring for Blue Tongues, certainly, and no matter what it was I could either fabricate or vastly overstate it and you would have no means of knowing that, which is part of why you saying "Im a top, and highly reccomended breeder" and then going on to make no point or contribution whatsoever, is no shock to anybody reading this thread.


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Tiliqua said:


> Well its clear that you've made up your mind on the issue. In fact you know you are just _so _right that you feel that it is ok to talk down to people. Blue tongues are not easy to breed and you cannot make poor husbandry choices and breed them what ever you do.
> 
> The thrilling evidence is that many of the world's top breeders use dog food for their skinks. Not just breeders, but regular keepers too. I have raised animals on it, virtually never had any health issues, and my oldest animal is approx. 30 years old.
> 
> Can I ask what your personal experience is of working with blue tongue skinks?


Hi, for me the "problem" is that most newcomers especially will resort to feeding dogfood (even poor quality) on a very regular basis simply because they`ve been advised by individuals such as yourself that it`s beneficial and they are more likely to use it in place of more "natural" food items simply because of the cheapness and convenience.
I`m not sure I would agree that Blue tongues are difficult to breed in captivity (or maybe over here they are)?
I also think like many "breeders" you make up certain "rules" which for me can sometimes complicate things to a degree.
I think your success in repeated breedings over generations is great, I believe it could have been done just as successfully without ever feeding dog food. :2thumb:


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## Tiliqua (Dec 6, 2008)

Zux said:


> I dont see how my mind is anymore made up than yours, frankly.
> 
> You feel you cannot make bad husbandry choices and get away with it, but that is exactly what you have been doing by cutting the corners you are.
> 
> ...


 So that's no experience then?

The point is that I have made up my mind based on my experience and that of the many other keepers and breeders that I know, plus very extensive reading and research. Your argument seems to be that having successful and problem free animals that breed freely and live long healthy lives is *no evidence*?

I'm not going to continue with this. Sorry for having a view that differs from yours.


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

Tiliqua said:


> So that's no experience then?
> 
> The point is that I have made up my mind based on my experience and that of the many other keepers and breeders that I know, plus very extensive reading and research. Your argument seems to be that having successful and problem free animals that breed freely and live long healthy lives is *no evidence*?
> 
> I'm not going to continue with this. Sorry for having a view that differs from yours.


You can presume all you want, if I have struck you thus far as somebody who doesn't know what they are talking about I think that says it all really. 

The point is, you have made up your mind based on nothing other than your animals appear outwardly fine and go on to breed, as has been explained to you twice now, this is not indicative of the things you think it is. 

Like I said earlier, we would love to see the fruits of that extensive reading and research supporting your statement that "dog food is an excellent food item for blue tongue skinks".

Also explained, but this much you already knew, is that those individuals who promote this archaic practice seek to save time and money and if they can get away with doing so, they will. Ignorance is bliss.

You are not continuing with this because you dont have a point to make it appears, you read the thread and because you still feed dog food despite all modern care standards and logic, you felt offended, I understand that. 

Having a different view is no problem whatsoever, no apology needed, thats what forums are for. I wont apologize for explaining why I disagree however, and if that offends you it might be time to address other things.


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## Gaz1974 (Nov 5, 2014)

For me the great thing about owning a bts is the huge variety of stuff that it will eat. Half the fun is mucking about in the garden collecting morsals, feeding said morsals until I know they're free of nasties then giving to the skink. 

Mine also loves lambs liver, chicken, tripe and kidney. It's had the odd bit of dog food if I've got nothing else but it's not really much fun feeding it something out of a can. 

It's also great to buy some locusts and watch the skink catching them. 

The only problem I have is getting it to eat it's veg and fruit. I have to fool it by mixing greens in with the protein, or leave it a few days so it knows it's hungry then it'll take the free carbs and fruit. 

I don't personally know whether dog food is good or bad for the animal. All I know is that part of the fun of ownership is providing variety and foraging for goodies in my garden.


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## Tiliqua (Dec 6, 2008)

Zux said:


> You can presume all you want, if I have struck you thus far as somebody who doesn't know what they are talking about I think that says it all really.
> 
> The point is, you have made up your mind based on nothing other than your animals appear outwardly fine and go on to breed, as has been explained to you twice now, this is not indicative of the things you think it is.
> 
> ...


Well I'm afraid that I have presumed that you have little real experience. What that means is, there is a danger that you are simply repeating what you have heard elsewhere. I am not offended, just disappointed - I thought this forum was about like minded individuals sharing experiences and ideas, not scoring points. The fact that you state that my apparent success does not mean what I think it means, I find a little strange, and kind of dodges the evidence. 

Feeding dog food does not save time or money. I'll illustrate. I have just fed my blue tongues. I have a few so I make up a big cake mixing bowl of what I call skink mix, and what the Germans call 'skink pudding'. 

To make this I chopped several types of salad leaves, tomatoes, grapes, bananas. Today this was 3/4 of the meal. To this I added one tin of Pedigree Chum lamb loaf, finely chopped and two lightly scrambled eggs. All mixed up and then added about a teaspoon of Repashy Calcium plus. This is a typical skink mix. Next week I will probably use turkey mince or lean steak mince instead of dog food. I will maybe use dandelion instead of salad and peas and beans instead of fruit. I may use raw beaten egg instead of scrambled. It varies a huge amount. But, dog food has a contribution to make to a healthy balanced diet. It is no quicker and makes no difference to the cost, or at least that is not a factor for me. 

Try reading this book, known as the bluey bible: https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Tongued-Skinks-Contributions-Knowledge-Cyclodomorphus/dp/3931587347

Or possibly the dietary advice given here, widely recognised as the gold standard advice: 
http://bluetongueskinks.net/foodchart.html

Or possibly one of my articles on reptile husbandry:

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/rhinoclemmys.html

Species spotlight: Australian tree skink - CaptiveBred Reptile Forums, Reptile Classified, Forum

Species spotlight: Cunningham's skink, Egernia cunninghami - CaptiveBred Reptile Forums, Reptile Classified, Forum


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

For somebody who wasn't going to engage with me, thats an awfully long response mate.


Like I said, you can presume all you wish, I am not interested in your feelings on what my experience may or may not be, you have proved yourself arrogant and ignorant in equal measure in my view.

First stating 'dog food is an excellent staple for blue tongue skinks" and later qualifying that by stating you only feed it irregularly and even in those cases randomly diluted with teaspoons of supplements, merely further proves you have almost no understanding of nutrition and how best it should be provided.

You mention you are 'disappointed' the forum is not filled with like minded individuals and that people only seek to score points, but then go on to link me your pictures of Skinks and derivative forum postings which anybody with access to google could write inside 30 minutes, as though that is going to make us all think "wow, this guy is no joke".

All you seem to want is to make your forum post and have everybody agree so you can feel knowledgeable, that did not work out in this case and you are offended, like I mentioned before, I understand that.


I am not going to engage with you any further beyond this reply because you are not interested in logical discussion or modern care standards and only in having the last word to appear 'correct', just as one last attempt to help you to understand though, your successful breeding of Skinks, is *absolutely not evidence* supporting dog food as a good thing to feed those animals, if you cannot see that, you have no place discussing husbandry and making forum posts on the subject, frankly.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Guys - keep it civil please. No hurling insults and snide remarks about. Infractions have been issued, and it is looking like more will be shortly.


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## hamadryad1971 (Jul 8, 2016)

then it follows every diet fed everywhere to every species which reproduces in captivity to multi-generations is not proven or recommendable in any way shape or form.

whether that be collards to iguanas or spring mix to uro's or mice to a corn. if all you have for proof that ur doing things right is f5, 10, 15 gen animals then u have no proof at all, apparently.





Zux said:


> For somebody who wasn't going to engage with me, thats an awfully long response mate.
> 
> 
> Like I said, you can presume all you wish, I am not interested in your feelings on what my experience may or may not be, you have proved yourself arrogant and ignorant in equal measure in my view.
> ...


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## hamadryad1971 (Jul 8, 2016)

or is an f5 on a diet you approve of evidence? and an f5 on a diet you don't approve of just sheer luck with hidden disease lurking beneath the scales....




Zux said:


> For somebody who wasn't going to engage with me, thats an awfully long response mate.
> 
> 
> Like I said, you can presume all you wish, I am not interested in your feelings on what my experience may or may not be, you have proved yourself arrogant and ignorant in equal measure in my view.
> ...


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## Dan Bristow (Jan 12, 2008)

I'd like to see where the evidence is that dog food is bad for them and can't be used as a staple? I like to keep my knowledge broad and open to new ideas. As mark- cost isn't an issue for me, I only care what is best for the animal and has been proven to work. 
For instance- Ty Park, a huge reptile breeder/keeper in the US has recently stated that he raises tegus on quality dog food. Again, not due to cost or ease as that really isn't an issue for him, but because it has proven to work for him and raises healthy animals. 
I think I will stick with what has worked for generations of Blue tongues and that is a diet based on quality dog food. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fizz (Jan 18, 2014)

hamadryad1971 said:


> then it follows every diet fed everywhere to every species which reproduces in captivity to multi-generations is not proven or recommendable in any way shape or form.
> 
> whether that be collards to iguanas or spring mix to uro's or mice to a corn. if all you have for proof that ur doing things right is f5, 10, 15 gen animals then u have no proof at all, apparently.


This at first glance made me think and you know what maybe youre right. We have no evidence that the food we feed our reptiles is the BEST thing for them. (unless someone sciency can explain tests that can be run to show this) However this is why the hobby is advancing all the time and we are constantly gaining better understanding of their dietry needs as well as habitat. 
ie: many years ago when I first kept reptiles, first snakes (on a hat mat with no stat) and then my first lizard was a beardie who I was advised to keep on wood chips and feed a diet of crickets and the occasional salad or a complete beardie pellet food which would be dampened down. Now of course the hobby is much more wide spread and research is being done all over the place. Both my snakes and my beardie were outwardly healthy animals but no one can argue that the practices used then are still considered suitable.

My point is that reptiles (animals in general) are pretty hardy and will do their best to survive and breed in which ever situation they are given, that is the nature of life.
No one has said that is is impossible to rear healthy BTS on dog food as a staple BUT many are stating that we now have better understanding of required nutrition and how to attain it which leads on to people using more modern methods/ diets.

Lastly, We KNOW that iguanas eat greens in nature- they were built for it. We KNOW that snakes will eat mice in nature - they are made for it. No one can tell me that skinks evolved to eat processed food from a can... that is my take on things anyway , like I said previously I dont condem anyone for using dog food if they have researched and chosen to do so, especially when mixed and varied as part of a diet rather than used as a staple, but personally I would rather follow a more natural diet and without the prepackaged processed food included you can be sure what is going into your skinks - no chemicals/ preservatives etc


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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

Dan Bristow said:


> I'd like to see where the evidence is that dog food is bad for them and can't be used as a staple? I like to keep my knowledge broad and open to new ideas. As mark- cost isn't an issue for me, I only care what is best for the animal and has been proven to work.


Well no can provide a scientific paper that dog food is bad for skinks. Simply not enough people care to research something like that.

The effects of dogfood on dogs however is well described, a couple examples of things 'going wrong':

Identification and Characterization of Toxicity of Contaminants in Pet Food Leading to an Outbreak of Renal Toxicity in Cats and Dogs (a recall because of toxicity)
https://www.google.com/patents/US4713250 (The manner in which dry food is made attractive and also applies to wet dog food. The fats used aren't considered healthy in high doses)
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf062363+

The list of research that claimed some form of toxic was found in dog food is pretty extensive. Not to mention the number of adjectives linked to causing cancer. 

Not all dogfood is bad though; some dog 'meat sausages’ are perfectly fine. These are pretty much slaughter waste grind up into a sausages. But keep in mind you tend to pay extra for brand and package. You can just as easily go to an butcher, ask for some left overs and grind them yourself. 



Dan Bristow said:


> For instance- Ty Park, a huge reptile breeder/keeper in the US has recently stated that he raises tegus on quality dog food. Again, not due to cost or ease as that really isn't an issue for him, but because it has proven to work for him and raises healthy animals.


I also know a big breeder who raises tegus on 'dogfood' quite successfully. But this kind of dog food tends to be unprocessed meat cut into 'bite size'. It's pretty much interchangeable with slaughter waste. I don't know if this also applies to to Ty Park as well. In any case, it's simply repeating the argument that already has been made a dozen times in this thread.

For those interested in how dog food is made and the discussion around pet food:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdT9R1QbZwI


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

For me, if there is even a remote chance I can do something better for my animals, or that what I am currently doing may not be ideal, I instantly do all I can to rectify that. 


Yes, for those of you who demand 'scientific evidence' to prove the old practice was a bad one, believe it or not, some keepers dont take that gamble and actually do want the best for their animals. They do not choose to blindly follow the practices of mass breeding facilities, little changed in almost 30 years, until proven otherwise.

Despite the fact there are swathes of online resources which anybody has access to, supporting the idea that feeding processed dog food is a very poor choice, some continue to do so, while at the same time claiming cost and time is not an issue for them and that they do it because they want the best for their animals... Choosing the most convenient and cheap option as-long as it doesn't present an outwardly sick animal, is not doing the best for your animals for the record.

I suppose its like any other hobby, some care more than others, my only hope is that the vocal minority are speaking up in favor of this archaic practice for their own reasons, and that most members will have actually read the thread and made an informed decision based on the varied opinions, modern care standards and...common sense. I know that some among you are in-fact, well meaning, and simply dont understand the differing viewpoints yet, my worry is that some of you very much _do understand _and stubbornly stick by your old methods because nothing bad has happened, as far as you could tell.


I have not responded to some of you directly, partly because, again, I could not understand your posts/questions (@hamadryad1971) and because others among you are still posting things like "I know a huge breeder who feeds dog food mate, I'll stick with what works", despite there being 12 pages explaining to your peers why that is not a situation on which anybody should base their husbandry (@Dan Bristow).

If you chaps would rather base the care of your pets on the practices of mass breeding facilities and three decade old year old care sheets until somebody funds a scientific study on dog food and skinks for you, that is your right, but you are absolutely wasting your time when trying to justify that in the face of not only modern evidence, but logic.


This thread has run its course in my view, we will not see further valid discussion and so this will be my final post on the matter, thank-you to those of you who took part in the exchange, both for and against.


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## hamadryad1971 (Jul 8, 2016)

base ur methods on whats worked for others

or, like you, base ur "expertise" on google.

get some tiliqua experience then come back and contribute.

hint if u need to know what they look like, google it.

i have no problem with an experienced tiliqua breeder saying dont use dog/cat food because it does this or that, i have a problem with people who have never even picked up a tiliqua professing "facts" based on nothing but a search engine, a care sheet they read once and took as gospel.





Zux said:


> For me, if there is even a remote chance I can do something better for my animals, or that what I am currently doing may not be ideal, I instantly do all I can to rectify that.
> 
> 
> Yes, for those of you who demand 'scientific evidence' to prove the old practice was a bad one, believe it or not, some keepers dont take that gamble and actually do want the best for their animals. They do not choose to blindly follow the practices of mass breeding facilities, little changed in almost 30 years, until proven otherwise.
> ...


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

hamadryad1971 said:


> base ur methods on whats worked for others
> 
> or, like you, base ur "expertise" on google.
> 
> ...



Would you mind not quoting me when directing random, baseless 'insults' please. Surely there is some better way you could be spending your Sunday.


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

hamadryad1971 said:


> base ur methods on whats worked for others
> 
> or, like you, base ur "expertise" on google.
> 
> ...


Hi, just out of interest, what experience do you have with Blue tongue skinks (either in the wild or in captivity)?


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Dan Bristow said:


> I'd like to see where the evidence is that dog food is bad for them and can't be used as a staple? I like to keep my knowledge broad and open to new ideas. As mark- cost isn't an issue for me, I only care what is best for the animal and has been proven to work.
> For instance- Ty Park, a huge reptile breeder/keeper in the US has recently stated that he raises tegus on quality dog food. Again, not due to cost or ease as that really isn't an issue for him, but because it has proven to work for him and raises healthy animals.
> I think I will stick with what has worked for generations of Blue tongues and that is a diet based on quality dog food.
> 
> ...


Hi, you say a diet based on quality dog food has worked for generations? 
A diet that contains no dog food has worked for millions of years!! 
P.S. Sorry that isn`t a "new idea".......


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## Dan Bristow (Jan 12, 2008)

murrindindi said:


> Hi, you say a diet based on quality dog food has worked for generations?
> A diet that contains no dog food has worked for millions of years!!
> P.S. Sorry that isn`t a "new idea".......


Hi

Yep you're correct, a diet with no dog food has worked for millions of years, in the wild where they can eat their natural food, have access to the correct amount of sunlight etc etc

How is feeding a quality dog food any worse than feeding say, raw turkey mince with added vegetables/fruits?!

I haven't posted on this forum for ages because of how people like yourselves seem to portray themselves as 'better' than others and that your way must be the best way. Total rubbish! As I have stated, I will always listen to the people that are having success with raising and breeding healthy animals : victory:

FYI, an example of the 'terrible' dog food I feed: https://www.kiezebrink.co.uk/product/472-alaska-dog-chicken-04kg


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## Gaz1974 (Nov 5, 2014)

Hey guys.
Perhaps there's a market here for "super skink food". 
It could consist of snail, slug, liver, kidney, vegetables and fruit and calcium all in one meal.

Would you buy it?


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## MikeO233 (Sep 14, 2014)

Gaz1974 said:


> Hey guys.
> Perhaps there's a market here for "super skink food".
> It could consist of snail, slug, liver, kidney, vegetables and fruit and calcium all in one meal.
> 
> Would you buy it?


Probably not.

With the fresh nature of the food it is cheaper and easier to make it at home and freeze.

Been loving it since I've been doing it. Skink loves it too. Polishes off the lot every time. I offered my mashup along side snails today. When I offer them individually she eats both. Snails didn't get touched today. She likes my cooking


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## Gaz1974 (Nov 5, 2014)

MikeO233 said:


> Probably not.
> 
> With the fresh nature of the food it is cheaper and easier to make it at home and freeze.
> 
> Been loving it since I've been doing it. Skink loves it too. Polishes off the lot every time. I offered my mashup along side snails today. When I offer them individually she eats both. Snails didn't get touched today. She likes my cooking


Haha... Have to agree. The fun about having a bts is all about creating a varied diet. 

Mine didn't touch the fruit and veg I gave her last night so I left it in whilst I went to work today... Got home and it had all gone.. Greedy little blighter:lol2:


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## silversceptile (Sep 3, 2016)

Haha, I bought my skink almost a month ago and started this thread even longer ago than that and it's still on the front page (haven't been on in a while). I'm glad it sparked some conversation and attracted the opinion of experienced keepers and breeders because it's always nice to see how different people differ in beliefs and opinions. Thanks guys for all the help! :2thumb:

P.S I settled on using lean meats by a long shot.


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## Zux (Mar 31, 2016)

silversceptile said:


> Haha, I bought my skink almost a month ago and started this thread even longer ago than that and it's still on the front page (haven't been on in a while). I'm glad it sparked some conversation and attracted the opinion of experienced keepers and breeders because it's always nice to see how different people differ in beliefs and opinions. Thanks guys for all the help! :2thumb:
> 
> P.S I settled on using lean meats by a long shot.


Glad to hear that mate, hope everything is going well for you so far.


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