# Alternative Protein source for Beardies



## yuesaur (Aug 29, 2011)

ive been doing alot of research on bearded dragons as id very much like to keep one.
my question is other than feeding live foods, which i really dont want to feed it as i think its cruel (just dont ask why i think this) is there any other alternative substitutes to live food? i know you can buy special bearded dragon pellets and dried crickets from exotic pet shops im just wondering if there was any other subsitutes such as cooked chicken etc.


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## dickvansheepcake (Jul 8, 2009)

It's far more cruel to the beardie to deny it a proper diet. A beardie must have live food, there is no substitute that is adequate and will keep it nice and healthy. Feeding them only on those pellets (which many will not take anyway) is like feeding a human only on microwave meals. They'll survive, but it's not healthy.

Either get over your 'cruelty to insects' thing, or look for a vegetarian lizard!


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## yuesaur (Aug 29, 2011)

i wanted to know other protein sources. 

not a damn lecture. k?


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

yuesaur said:


> i wanted to know other protein sources.
> 
> not a damn lecture. k?


It wasn't a lecture, it was a good and realistic answer
Don't throw things out the pram because you didn't hear what you wanted


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## dickvansheepcake (Jul 8, 2009)

Um...I answered your question. There are no substitutes for insects. Sorry it's not what you want to hear but that's the only answer you'll get. k?


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

I think this is an interesting question, one perhaps we shouldn't dismiss out of hand.

Theoretically, it is entirely possible. It should be fully possible to devise a diet that does not include any insects, as has been done with other species (some what successfully). Does this diet currently exist? Personally I don't think so. The pellet diets currently available (to the best of my knowledge) are not really up to the job, although their protein content is adequate.

With this in mind, one would need to design their own diet, and while certainly not trivial, it isn't impossible. The down fall however, is that it would require some really in-depth knowledge into dietary requirements and components, as well as a very good understanding of species health. These tend to be things that inexperienced keepers initially lack (and in honesty, most keepers never achieve or even need too).

So, while technically, this species does not need insects to survive (although behavioral constraints may disagree - juveniles are often reluctant to eat non-moving 'prey'), achieving this goal currently, is beyond the reach of 99% of keepers.

Worth pointing out again (as above) that dietary contribution is not the only reason for feeding live prey.

Andy


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## liz200898 (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm sorry but the only answer you are going to get really is that if you don't want to feed them livefood then you proberbly shouldn't get one that's like buying a dog and then feeding him on packet salad because your a vegetarian.

If you want a reptile but aren't comfortable with feeding livefood (which is fair enough) then i'd suggest looking into herbivorous lizards there are plently of them to look into.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/320648-herbivorous-lizards.html 

There is a few suggestions there.


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## jamielemon (Aug 25, 2011)

Feeding the live food also helps to keep the active aswell as keeps the correct diet, if you wouldnt like to feed them live food i think you should look into getting a diffrent reptile or even a diffrent pet maybe look into the link above.

Thanks jamie


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## trudib (Jul 24, 2011)

Got to agree feeding live food might not be the nicest thing but as well as proving their protein it also provides them with there hunting instinct and exercise when chasing down there food. I may not like some of the bugs i feed mine but that's what he needs therefore that's what he gets. And becoming second nature now that i dont mind handling them, though my friend still screams everytime i feed the locus when she is in the kitchen as sometimes they hop out :lol2:


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## Anu (Jun 8, 2011)

yuesaur said:


> ive been doing alot of research on bearded dragons as id very much like to keep one.
> my question is other than feeding live foods, which i really dont want to feed it as i think its cruel (just dont ask why i think this) is there any other alternative substitutes to live food? i know you can buy special bearded dragon pellets and dried crickets from exotic pet shops im just wondering if there was any other subsitutes such as cooked chicken etc.


Doing a lot of research yet ask about chicken? It has a high phosphorus content (which is bad for bearded dragons). As for the dried crickets, live food provides a key part of enrichment for your potential beardy. Not only will they provide a greater nutritional value, it encourages them to exhibit natural behaviours.

I would advise if it's such a problem to feed your animal something which is considered quite vital, you might want to reevaluate your desired reptile, perhaps a Chuckwalla would be plausible, and sorry, it's more than likely something you do not wish to read.


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## tracey_H_ (Jan 28, 2011)

I know my beardie would be completly miserable without her live food.I didnt like the idea of live food,only because i dont like jumpy small things!.But you get used to it,iv noticed a dramatic effect on her health alertness and genral well being,since we have had her,her previous owner didnt like feeding bugs and it showed!.Not only are they good for them,the stimulation is brilliant,she loves hunting them and even roaches have to be let loose so she can chase them.To be honest i even quite enjoy seeing her hunting and eating them,and im not sadistic,its beacause if shes hunting and eating,shes happy and healthy and that makes me happy.


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## Ste123 (Apr 30, 2011)

The day they create a vegetarian crocodile I'm going to get one lol


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

have you considered getting a uromastyx as they can be given a vegetarian diet. 

I presume desert iguanas might also be able to be given a veggie diet?

It's interesting you apply your cruelty mantra to live food such as crickets, meal worms etc. I've met a few who think live feeding vertebrates should never occur, but they generally don't refer to invertebrate feeding in the same light.


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## fuzzzzbuzzzz (Apr 11, 2010)

yuesaur said:


> ive been doing alot of research on bearded dragons as id very much like to keep one.
> my question is other than feeding live foods, which i really dont want to feed it as i think its cruel (just dont ask why i think this) is there any other alternative substitutes to live food? i know you can buy special bearded dragon pellets and dried crickets from exotic pet shops im just wondering if there was any other subsitutes such as cooked chicken etc.


How comes you think its cruel? We all have to eat, its one of the main things that keeps us alive. I think you need to reconsider getting another pet, its like buying a boa and feeding it on lettuce. IMO dried pellets and dried crickets will work out more expensive and is totally pointless. Feeding it live will have major health benefits and a happier lizard. Surely its alot more cruel if it isn't getting fed properly. By the way, there is no point getting annoyed with people because they are giving you advice and its not what you want to here. You asked a question, and people are going to answer whether you disagree with them or not.

Gemma


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## Anu (Jun 8, 2011)

joeyboy said:


> have you considered getting a uromastyx as they can be given a vegetarian diet.


Is their diet not a questionable one?

Also, found your signature sentence quite amusing, lol.


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

and you would be able to provide crickets a much better life than a farmed chicken would have, 
i agree you should get another lizard


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## ex0tics (Jun 9, 2009)

Love watching my guys stalking things down, think what you want of that :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## trudib (Jul 24, 2011)

ex0tics said:


> Love watching my guys stalking things down, think what you want of that :Na_Na_Na_Na:


that your a normal reptile keeper, who wants to give them everything they need, and always watch mine hunt his with satisfaction knowing he enjoyed it:2thumb:


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## liz200898 (Oct 13, 2008)

It's a rare glimpse of their natural wild behaviour after all basking isn't that exciting when it's pretty much all they do! =p


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## SeanGecko (Jul 21, 2011)

also to mention its very important for mental stimulation, especially for older beardies.


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

dickvansheepcake said:


> It's far more cruel to the beardie to deny it a proper diet. A beardie must have live food, there is no substitute that is adequate and will keep it nice and healthy. Feeding them only on those pellets (which many will not take anyway) is like feeding a human only on microwave meals. They'll survive, but it's not healthy.
> 
> Either get over your 'cruelty to insects' thing, or look for a vegetarian lizard!


I would LOVE to hear some scientific evidence for this other than just from reading it on a forum or perhaps internet care sheet? A lot of people are quick to dismiss things and be judgemental without actually looking at the facts, which no one appears to have done. Not slating you as such just wanted to know what grounds you had for saying that beardies should always have live food and what scientific evidence you could provide to support your claims. Yes they eat live foods in the wild, but there are a lot of things we can provide them and still do that are not in the wild, like butternut squash or even critical care. I fail to see why an appropriate non- live food diet cannot be formed? 

This is like the whole 'beardies must be in a 4ft viv minimum' concept. I won't go into details of that argument as I don't want to cause a further stir. This just supports the notion that people think that they read something on a forum and therefore it must be true! I wish people would be more open to new ideas rather than putting everything to the bear minimum.


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## liz200898 (Oct 13, 2008)

Because it's not fair.. you don't restrict an animals diet when you don't have to if we are keeping wild animals then it is in my mind our dutie to provide them with what they love and deserve that's even before the nutritional issues and stimulation which are vital to welbeing.
As far as nutritional aids go, well they don't live anywere near as long in the wild so this factored in shows that no they don't need it to survive in the short term but in the long run life is a whole lot harder for them out there, I think substituting their livefood with something else would potentially play a part in shortening the animls life, just a theory of course.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> I think this is an interesting question, one perhaps we shouldn't dismiss out of hand.
> 
> Theoretically, it is entirely possible. It should be fully possible to devise a diet that does not include any insects, as has been done with other species (some what successfully). Does this diet currently exist? Personally I don't think so. The pellet diets currently available (to the best of my knowledge) are not really up to the job, although their protein content is adequate.
> 
> ...


 
replacing insects with a supplement as stated by Andy in theory is possible??? [maybe]
is there any one on this forum that could [definitely not]
is there any reptile keeper in the world that could [unlikely]
should it be attempted??? in my opinion ,,,,no never,,,

for and against

for?????

the main reason i would be interested in replacing live food would be 
a significant reduction of parasitic introduction through live food
and the elimination of cross contamination by live food
with good hygiene most parasitic infections could be all but eliminated
from reptile keeping,,,,this has to be a plus,,,,

against????

god i could write a book so i will just point a few things out


food intake balance [amount] to = nutrition balance needed through the yearly cycle,, 90% of keepers cant get this wright with live food
over half of keepers don't or don't know how to gut load effectively

live food stimulation and natural behavior

there's a book in this alone


health

is there enough understanding on the effects of elimination of live food
and all its contents on the digestion system,,,no,,, its never been done to my knowledge

,,,,question????
would the digestion system work if so at what % ????
would life expectancy be reduced ????
could any of the above even be monitored by a reptile keeper adequately???? definitely not


to conclude

can it be done???? possibly
should it be attempted by a keeper???? definitely not

for a scientist,nutritionist with unlimited funds unlimited facilities and a life times worth of work, to duplicate a supplement that can replace live food with no side effects ,is a pretty big ask, never mind Joe blogs

practically trying to change millions of years of evolution because you don't like feeding bugs to your reptile in my opinion get a tortoise

and Andy finally your quotation which you wish you had never stated

,,,most people can not feed them selves wright never mind there reptiles,,,

all the above is only my opinion and sorry for any spelling or grammar mistakes

mark: victory:


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

i agree, it would take months possibly years to find the exact nutritional data for a beardie.

you cant just feed chicken for example and just say " hey he has eaten chicken he has had protein"


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## Anu (Jun 8, 2011)

Bexzini said:


> I would LOVE to hear some scientific evidence for this other than just from reading it on a forum or perhaps internet care sheet? A lot of people are quick to dismiss things and be judgemental without actually looking at the facts, which no one appears to have done. Not slating you as such just wanted to know what grounds you had for saying that beardies should always have live food and what scientific evidence you could provide to support your claims. Yes they eat live foods in the wild, but there are a lot of things we can provide them and still do that are not in the wild, like butternut squash or even critical care. I fail to see why an appropriate non- live food diet cannot be formed?


For the dried locusts... Refer to the 5 freedoms.



> Freedom to express normal behaviour.


Hunting and foraging are *instincts*, for a bearded dragon. So, would that fall under my above quote?


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