# Dont you think this has gone on long enough?



## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

Ok im not one for making these sorts of posts and coming from me this may seem ironic but....grow up people.

Im sick to death of people saying "If you cant afford to take your animal to the vets you dont *deserve *to keep animals". While keeping an animal in long term suffering is sickening the behaviour of some keepers is absolutely deplorable. Some people cant afford to take their animals to the vets in a moments notice. If one of my animals became sick it would have to wait till next week to be treated. However in simular threads some people of what i can only describe as overly concerned busy bodys riding a rather verticle horse telling others that just because they cant get an animal to a vet in a drop of a hat they shouldnt own them at all. Sometimes times are hard, there have been times over the past year where my animals have been living lives of luxary and ive had to go days without food. Myself and others care for their animals deeply and insulting someone whos already under massive amounts of stress and distraught that they shouldnt keep animals is truely unforgivable and sickening. Especially when its a *13 year old boy!* Some people may have had lives of luxary and fed with a silver spoons as a baby but some of us havent. When i was 12 i got £5 a week pocket money which i used to buy books, most poket money now is £10 a week and sometimes the parents can barely afford that. Yes animal health is a big concern but getting upity because you can afford vets bills, nice house and countless reptiles when the target is a 13 year old boy with a leopard gecko that was kept poorly in a store is deplorable and you should be ashamed of yourself.

/rant over/


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I wouldn't of thought it was a good idea to buy animals if you cant afford a vets bill...what if it was something that needed urgent attention? Would people think it was ok to let the animals suffer for a week because they couldn't afford the vets? I nkow not every case is as cut and dry and I dont know what situation you are talking about but thats my opinion nonetheless.


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

if my rep went ill and at the end i got a big vet bill i would sell what a can to get the money my reps are every thing to me


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> Ok im not one for making these sorts of posts and coming from me this may seem ironic but....grow up people.
> 
> Im sick to death of people saying "If you cant afford to take your animal to the vets you dont *deserve *to keep animals". /


i agree, but not just about reptiles. Back in April i took the dog to the vets as he had a lump in his mouth. Cost me £180 to have it cut out and tested and it turned out to be cancer. That cost me £420 to have his jaw removed to get rid of the cancer and extend his life. Yep i had insurance but if i didn't does that mean i don't deserve to keep him because i don't have £600 in the bank 'just in case'


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

There's always payment plans:whistling2:

For people who can't afford to treat sick animals they could go to a PDSA vet. There's really *NO EXCUSE* to let an animal suffer.


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## alphakenny1 (Sep 16, 2008)

this is the excact reason you shoud be covered on pet insurance


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

Fangio said:


> There's always payment plans:whistling2:
> 
> For people who can't afford to treat sick animals they could go to a PDSA vet. There's really *NO EXCUSE* to let an animal suffer.


Im still waiting to hear if PDSA treat reptiles as i don't believe they do but theirs no mention of it on the site. 

As meko said if i was dumped with a £600 pound bill that would be impossible to pay. I dont have £600 worth of items and id probally be paying off that for the next 3 years. I doupt many people could afford that much either.


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

Lucifus said:


> Im still waiting to hear if PDSA treat reptiles as i don't believe they do but theirs no mention of it on the site.
> 
> As meko said if i was dumped with a £600 pound bill that would be impossible to pay. I dont have £600 worth of items and id probally be paying off that for the next 3 years. I doupt many people could afford that much either.


one in sheffield doesnt..i have taken in ill igs, boscs, rocks etc, the usual probs and pdsa wont even look


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

cant honestly agree here 


the very person who made that thread wont take ANY advise on forum and has had numerous warnings and caused numerous problems when refusing help and advice before today...

they seem to have some issue then suddenly its solved.. very odd

I must be honest that under 16s does not mean that forumites should not be asked to display a degree of maturity..

an animal should not be bougbht for pleasure of the owner cant keep it out of pain.. and lack of cash is not an excuse.. that should be very well considered before purchase not panicked about after...

if the person cant afford vet bills then i 100% agree they shouldnt have the animal.. sorry its my opinion

i have helped numerous newbies and teens over msn and phonecalls when they say they cant afford vets... they appreciate in hindsigh they were wrong to have the animal without being able to care for it..

caring for an animal isnt just feeding.. or temperature etc.. its being able to make sure you can afford vet bills when its sick.. that is all part fo having reptiles/ cats/ dogs/...

if someone said they bought a horse and it then broke its leg but they couldnt afford the vet bill for it to be either put down or treated how would we react...

I think its important to be honest and frank.. not baby new or young keepers into thinking because they have a sick animal and are young we should say AWWWWWW whilst the animal suffers..

offering help.. advice and also a slight chastisement for not understanding what is required is the right middle ground I feel...

simple


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

So Sparkle.. you have £600 lying around to treat your dog for cancer? or £2000 to treat your cat who got ran over and you found out your insurance direct debit hadn't been paid for some reason?

Or when i found out Rio had cancer and if i didn't have the money i should have just given him away?

my opinion is that your opinion sucks.


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## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

Lucifus said:


> Im still waiting to hear if PDSA treat reptiles as i don't believe they do but theirs no mention of it on the site.
> 
> As meko said if i was dumped with a £600 pound bill that would be impossible to pay. I dont have £600 worth of items and id probally be paying off that for the next 3 years. I doupt many people could afford that much either.



The PDSA does not treat reptiles.

Mo.


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

Maureen Collinson said:


> The PDSA does not treat reptiles.
> 
> Mo.


That's a shame.


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## tplatts98 (Jun 29, 2008)

why should you think about vet bills when you buy reps not every animal has to go to vets it is only when idiots get them. i have had dogs, cats, horses and lots of other animals and reptiles when i was younger and they only ever went to the vets for the buster jabs that the need when they are young. so their is a really high chance that you never after go to the vets if you look after them correctly.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Meko said:


> So Sparkle.. you have £600 lying around to treat your dog for cancer? or £2000 to treat your cat who got ran over and you found out your insurance direct debit hadn't been paid for some reason?
> 
> Or when i found out Rio had cancer and if i didn't have the money i should have just given him away?
> 
> my opinion is that your opinion sucks.


SO MEKO... nice to see an emotional over reaction from you... and of course taking things to extremes... if you read my whole post you will see what my issue IS.. and its not finding 2 grand thats for sure...


since when did i have a dog anyway... 

i have insurance on my animals.. and i check monthly the DD has been paid since I was a mortgage advisor i am well aware about Direct debit issues but you actually get 2 months grace for insurance... or at least GOOD insurance..

and YES i have plenty savings hunny

dont you remember i saved a water dragon this year that cost me £500 and no i didnt have insurance for her..

wasnt even my animal..i took her on paid her vet bills.. got her a tank with all the stats and uv..from my OWN money...

i dont drink( well very rarely lol).. dont smoke .. dont go holidays...dont do drugs and make sure i am careful with all my household bills.. that way i always have plenty back up financially..i dont have a credit card.. dont buy designer clothes... 

so i can afford to keep and treat ALL my animals actually..

if i had to find 2 grand meko to save a cat... i could... but thats not the issue is it....

however,... to explain further

not have 2 grand is one thing.. not to have 30 quid for a consultation is another..

thats what i was talking about

the fact the animal cant even be taken to be SEEN once.. thats not forgivable in my books...

can we play the my opinion is your opinion on my opinion sucks game..

oh no silly me..

its bed time

night night x


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

I dont agree we far from have £600 laying around to pay for vet bills but for large bills like that 99% of vets will do payment plans.
As for the boy in question, no he shouldnt be allowed to keep pets if his parents cant afford to take them to the vet or at least sort it out so that there is money set aside for minor treatment, we are talking about a consoultation and maybe some baytril or a fecal test, no more than £60 in a decent vets.
Whats that the same price as a pair of trainers

I do honestly believe that if you cant afford vet treatment at the time your pet is ill then, you should take advice from people who have dealt with the same problems in the past.
People have been known to sell their whole collections on here when they recieve a huge vet bill.

For people with one or two reps insurance is available, but for people like me and the OH who have over 100 reps no insurance company will take us, the only one that will wants to charge us more than the vet bill would cost if something was to go wrong with one of them.

For once (mods dont fall over) i agree with you.


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## Tina (Apr 9, 2007)

What if someone, when they buy their pets (whatever they may be), has a good income and can afford any vets bills that come along or can afford to pay for pet insurance... but then they lose their job? 

Would someone say 'they shouldn't have bought a pet' then?

Similarly a child may be bought a reptile (or whatever) by their parents at a time when their income is fine, but circumstances change... as they are doing for an awful lot of people at the moment... should the child's pet be rehomed because it may need vets bills the parent may not be able to afford at some time? 

It's not black and white... there are always grey areas which need to be considered. 

A vet worth their salt would never turn a sick animal away because someone can't pay there and then... payment plans can always be discussed. 

My son is 12 and he only gets £5 a week pocket money... out of which he has to buy pinkys for his snake and food for his gerbils. But if they ever became ill I'd foot the bills because I see them as much my responsibility as his as he is so young. Not all kids have parents who will unfortunately.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Fangio said:


> That's a shame.


its a pain.. but then again i guess it would be difficult to have an exotic vet paid and on call all the time if they didnt get enough reps in....


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

sparkle said:


> SO MEKO... nice to see an emotional over reaction from you... and of course taking things to extremes... if you read my whole post you will see what my issue IS.. and its not finding 2 grand thats for sure...
> 
> 
> since when did i have a dog anyway...
> ...


your arguement would have had much more substance if you hadn't edited the part out about not keeping animals if you couldn't afford vet bills a WHOLE 3 MINUTES after i posted.
Your opinion sucked, you changed your opinion and then tried to argue so your argument is as sucky as your opinion.


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

tplatts98 said:


> why should you think about vet bills when you buy reps not every animal has to go to vets it is only when idiots get them. i have had dogs, cats, horses and lots of other animals and reptiles when i was younger and they only ever went to the vets for the buster jabs that the need when they are young. so their is a really high chance that you never after go to the vets if you look after them correctly.


Exactly.

What i mean however is maybe people don't deserve to keep the animals. But what right do we have unless they are being kept in extremely dire circumstances to tell them they don't deserve them. People come here to ask for help only to be told that they don't deserve to keep animals at all. It doesn't make us look good at all and we are adding distress to a situation that is already stressful.

Friendly advice and gentle reassurance to take them to the vet is what is needed. Not "Omfg wtf bbq you dont deserve to keep animals".

Also maybe i dont deserve to keep animals because i cant afford a £600 vet bill, my student loan/grants come to a total of £4500 a year. What right do people have to tell me i dont deserve to keep them? Especially since a good portion of keepers are students.


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

tplatts98 said:


> why should you think about vet bills when you buy reps not every animal has to go to vets it is only when idiots get them. i have had dogs, cats, horses and lots of other animals and reptiles when i was younger and they only ever went to the vets for the buster jabs that the need when they are young. so their is a really high chance that you never after go to the vets if you look after them correctly.


Why would you think about insurance when you buy a car?
Its not only when idiots get reps that they need the vet, for example every time we move our royals viv, even if its from one side of the room to the other you can bet she gets an RI, she has been checkedover by a vet countless times and its down to her stressing.
We then take her to the vet get her baytril.
Or what about parasites on live foods for lizards?
Its a very sweeping statment your making, basically your saying that only owners that are idiots end up at the vets.


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## Prettyjoby (Aug 11, 2008)

Personally I think if reptiles are giving the right environments AND are taken to the vet immediately at first sign of illness then it should'nt be too much of a problem. I am on a low income and I have had 2 snakes with RI (Both escaped for some time so wasn't down to my keeping) I took them to the vet immediately and in both cases treatment didn't come much over £40. Most reptile problems are result of poor husbandry. RI's, Mouth rott, skin infections, underage breeding, stuck eyecaps, bad nutrition etc..

I am relatively confident that my snakes are unlikely to get sick but if they did I would take them to the vet immediately. It something more expensive did crop up I would borrow from my mum and pay her back in instalments. (or arrange a payment plan at the vets) I also have insurance for my staffie because I think dogs are much more prone to getting injured/sick that reptiles.

I think the PARENTS of this young lad should have taken control of the situation. When they agreed to let him have the animal they agreed to pay the vets bills. The child can't really be held responsible but mummy and daddy can.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Tina said:


> What if someone, when they buy their pets (whatever they may be), has a good income and can afford any vets bills that come along or can afford to pay for pet insurance... but then they lose their job?


thats far too realistic for some people to comprehend.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> Ok im not one for making these sorts of posts and coming from me this may seem ironic but....grow up people.
> 
> Im sick to death of people saying "If you cant afford to take your *animal* to the vets you dont deserve to keep *animals*". While keeping an *animal* in long term suffering is sickening the behaviour of some keepers is absolutely deplorable. Some people cant afford to take their *animals* to the vets in a moments notice. If one of my *animals* became sick it would have to wait till next week to be treated. However in simular threads some people of what i can only describe as overly concerned busy bodys riding a rather verticle horse telling others that just because they cant get an *animal* to a vet in a drop of a hat they shouldnt own them at all. Sometimes times are hard, there have been times over the past year where my *animals* have been living lives of luxary and ive had to go days without food. Myself and others care for their *animals* deeply and insulting someone whos already under massive amounts of stress and distraught that they shouldnt keep *animals* is truely unforgivable and sickening. Especially when its a 13 year old boy! Some people may have had lives of luxary and fed with a silver spoons as a baby but some of us havent. When i was 12 i got £5 a week pocket money which i used to buy books, most poket money now is £10 a week and sometimes the parents can barely afford that. Yes *animal* health is a big concern but getting upity because you can afford vets bills, nice house and countless reptiles when the target is a 13 year old boy with a leopard gecko that was kept poorly in a store is deplorable and you should be ashamed of yourself.
> 
> /rant over/


 
just to remind people this is about ANIMALS and insurance and not just reptiles :whistling2:


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## Prettyjoby (Aug 11, 2008)

Tina said:


> What if someone, when they buy their pets (whatever they may be), has a good income and can afford any vets bills that come along or can afford to pay for pet insurance... but then they lose their job?
> 
> Would someone say 'they shouldn't have bought a pet' then?


This is a good point. I recently had my work hours cut pretty much as a result of the current economic climate. How does this mean I shouldn't be allowed to keep the animals I have had 3-4 years prior to this?

I can tell you now I don't have savings, but I am sure there ARE payment plans available.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Meko said:


> your arguement would have had much more substance if you hadn't edited the part out about not keeping animals if you couldn't afford vet bills a WHOLE 3 MINUTES after i posted.
> Your opinion sucked, you changed your opinion and then tried to argue so your argument is as sucky as your opinion.


 
i always edit posts i post emotionally.. thats up to me surely.. 




and for the record i DONT work,,,

and i can afford whatever my animals need..

simple..

i have actually PAID for other peoples animals who couldnt afford to have them seen and treated and not take the money back off them..
I care about animals more than people..

I have sent cash to a girl in london who couldnt afford vet bills... but the difference is she realised she should have been able to at least pay a consultation.. people can aford to put away a pound a week.. dont say they cant.. and im sick of people buying more an dmore reps on this forum and not being able to afford to treat the ones they DO have.. thats nonsense frankly...

these younger members buy sweets... crisps and cans of coke..etc etc..
just like my daughter would

they dont HAVE to.. if they want an animal to bring responsibility to them as someone said.. then they need to realise that some things have to be sacrificed so they have a bit of money when its needed..

my daughters 11.. she saves 50 pence per week into her snake fund .. it may not be alot but shes had her snake a year...this means she has a fair amount to put towards the snake if it gets sick.. at least consulatation fees..

i dont beleive that a family or child cant afford 50pence per week off their pocket money or food bills... and if they dont get pocket money ONE can of coke less per week. or one less macdonalds meal a month. i mean come on.. surely its obvious


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

ok, im disabled, cant work...i get DLA, i spent at least 80% of that on my animals...if i get a sick animal im screwed...it means weeks of not eating normally etc i have spent a fortune on the sick animals i have taken in...i cant afford ANY vet bill i get...i even have to cut down on leccy/gas etc.

i only just started breeding the bairds rats, to help get back some of the cash the 4 rescue turtle pong cost me, and some other animals...


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## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

Excellent point about people losing their jobs.

I have a lot of animals, and until recently I was in a very well paid job, now I'm jobless (And hating it). If any of my animals needed the vet between now and me finding another job, I would be up the creek without a paddle. But when I BOUGHT these animals and decided to take them into my home I didn't know that I was going to be out of a job now, so does that mean I don't DESERVE to keep them?

This is life, these things happen and we get through the best we can. No, I don't have a couple of hundred/grand lying around for emergencies, I barely have enough money to eat because it all goes on my rent and my animals, and I LIKE it that way. They always come first, they didn't choose to be taken from the wild, the least I can do is give them the best I can even if that means I go without!

Do I sound like somebody who doesn't deserve to keep animals? I personally consider myself a hell of a lot more deserving than a lot of people, who may perhaps be wealthier than I will ever be. I keep my animals to watch, observe, to learn and to love, not to look good in my living room when the neighbours come round!

Thats my two penneth, Say what you will, I deserve to keep my animals.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

cooljules said:


> ok, im disabled, cant work...i get DLA, i spent at least 80% of that on my animals...if i get a sick animal im screwed...it means weeks of not eating normally etc i have spent a fortune on the sick animals i have taken in...i cant afford ANY vet bill i get...i even have to cut down on leccy/gas etc.
> 
> i only just started breeding the bairds rats, to help get back some of the cash the 4 rescue turtle pong cost me, and some other animals...


 
funny that


but i feel i can comment about peopleon benefits who keep animals because....
im on dla too and cant work due to being in a wheelchair and having seizures

I lost my job too.. ( and a good one it was) and i find the money.. so where am i getting it from... am i magically growing it or just thinkinglong term and saving each month... i wonder eh>?

IM not uppity.. as someone sugested.. im not wealthy far from it..

Im a single mum on DLA benefits... due to being in a coma... but am i using that as an excuse... NOPE

simple.. i save hard .. and dont eat out... dont go to movies .. dont go holidays etc etc

and i find i only need the cash i save for vet bills once in a blue moon.. ive only needed to use it twice in 2 years

but the bills in total were 850..
divide that by 24 months and thats... 35 pounds per month...
not a HUGE amount considering what some people spend on MORE reps.. or going out drinking or cars or holidays



i cut down on food clothing bills everyhting..
and save my arse off for emergency vet bills..
which rarely come round..
last one was star the water dragon who cost over 500 quid to rescue..and she wasnt even my water dragon in the first place

but id saved for a year without dipping into the fund
i dont go holidays so i can do that.. and i dont have any luxuries.. none..

i just feel having 30 quid for a consulatation is a minimum requirement..

im not expecting everyone to have hundreds or thousands.. but surely a first consultation fee is essential... if we start saying its not..
that shows we would prefer to HAVE an animal that actually think about how we will CARE for it long term

please dont start saying im expecting people to have two grand just so you can argue against an extreme point i didnt make.. to make it LOOK like i said something i didnt

what im saying IS

I expect people to put away something for basic consultation fees of 30 to 40 quid.. I cant see why that viewpoint is SO horrifically wrong


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## tombraider (May 6, 2006)

Not all vets do payment plans. The one i use doesnt due to people in the past not paying. Luckily Ive always had the money to pay for vet treatmeant for any of mine or the kids pets.

I did mention on that other post about help from the RSPCA but everyone ranted on about dont go there, they put them to sleep, they will take you to court. Its nothing like that at all. Ive not used them myself but my eldest did a while ago. All you do is phone up your local RSPCA and ask for a number. you take the number to your vets and fill in any forms there. The RSPCA does not even see whatever pet you need help with.

Anyway I will call into the little old mans house tomorrow at the end of the block, the man whos only company is his little jack russel and tell him because he lives on a rubbish pension he has to rehome his dog : victory:


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

sparkle said:


> i always edit posts i post emotionally.. thats up to me surely..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
1 - you posted
2 - i replied to your post
3 - you edited your post and deleted the bit i replied to 
4 - you replied to my post as though what i replied to never existed
5 - you just said it yourself. You're sick of people buying reptile after reptile after reptile (and i agree) but this isn't just about buying loads of reptiles its about people saying if you can't afford vet bills FOR ANY ANIMAL you shouldn't have animals. thats it, no hidden agenda and people can't just magic money from nowhere 10 years after they bought the animal or 6 weeks after they lost their job or when their other have found out they were expecting twins.


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## Prettyjoby (Aug 11, 2008)

I guess I am middle of road here because I believe everyone who keeps animals should have the means of getting funds for a basic consultation/ course of anti biotics etc.

Its when major surgery/long term treatment is in order that I could see a lot of people screwed. 

Not all vets are rip-off merchants. I know the one I have used was pretty damn reasonable.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Sorry OP i have to disagree with you. Simply because i am Joe public i am normal no silver spoons and been in and out of work more times than i care to remember. Had to sell a lot of them off a while back because i lost a job and was struggling with bills and their upkeep and their care started to suffer as a result.

I then got a really good job and build back up my collection and then sadly was made redundant and they all (well most) had to go again and i was heart broken!! I have since kept my reptile collection down a reasonable size for my finances should i ever be out of work again.

I have been caught short a few times with my reptiles but have always managed to find the money for a consultation. That is critical!!!! Its only £20-30 depending on whether you are north or south of the divide!!

It is essential you know what is wrong before you decide yourself whether or not you can afford the treatment!! I had a gecko that was completely normal behaving and looking one night and the next morning i found her half dead laying at the front of the viv. I made an appointment that evening and off she went, sadly she died in the vets hands of egg binding so cost was nil but the important thing was that i made that appointment and got her there to be looked at.

Another gecko of mine managed to break her jaw, i knew treatment would be costly and there was little chance of her ever being able to eat again so decided the best plan of action would be to avoid consult charges and simply have her put to sleep, which for the record cost £18. I still have the receipt.

Treatment may be costly but a consult costs barely nothing and if you don't have at least £30 in your bank for emergencies you really shouldn't be keeping animals of any sort. If you went to your vivs and found one of them had managed to tear a limb from their body would you really leave it sitting there a week before jumping to action???

Marina


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## mangotango (Jul 7, 2008)

Ok some vaild points but also there are parents who will buy a kid a pet and then wont want to spend out for vets bills because the bill outweighs the cost of the animal itself and in there eyes with a limited budget thats bad economics. Im not condoning it but if your a 13 yr old lad and your parents tell you there not paying or taking it to the vets theres not alot you can do. 

Personally I can pay and if things are tight I can go earn the money to pay but some people just arent in that situation they dont have the means to pull cash out the air. 

Ok the kid may be a tit in your eye but he's bloody thirteen who isent a tit at thirteen? 

People in here love to get on there high horses and rant there point is right but theres many sides to each story and some humanity and compassion at times would be a refreshing change.

Mabey the fault is that these animals are so readily available as such low cost witch makes them so throw away?, for christs sake you can buy corns for £15? whats the difference between a pedegree dog and a goldfish? Goldfish are ten a penny and unfortuneately thats how alot of people will see it.

Thats not my personal view but I can afford to think like that some people cant, if I had kids I could never afford to.


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## shell2909 (Jun 30, 2008)

ive had all of £5 to live on this last week, due to starting a new job and getting a crap pay. if one of my animals got sick i would have had to wait till i got paid even for the consultation fee.
luckily non of them have.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

P.s i dont think children under 16 should "own" pets unless their parents are prepared to pick up the tab for ill health.

Marina


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Marinam2 said:


> Sorry OP i have to disagree with you. Simply because i am Joe public i am normal no silver spoons and been in and out of work more times than i care to remember. Had to sell a lot of them off a while back because i lost a job and was struggling with bills and their upkeep and their care started to suffer as a result.


 
what if one of your dogs were ill and you couldn't afford the insurance premium because you were out of work? To me my dogs are part of the family and being told i shouldn't have my dogs if i can't afford vet bills would be like saying i should put my kids up for adoption because i'm skint.


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

tombraider said:


> Not all vets do payment plans. The one i use doesnt due to people in the past not paying. Luckily Ive always had the money to pay for vet treatmeant for any of mine or the kids pets.
> 
> I did mention on that other post about help from the RSPCA but everyone ranted on about dont go there, they put them to sleep, they will take you to court. Its nothing like that at all. Ive not used them myself but my eldest did a while ago. All you do is phone up your local RSPCA and ask for a number. you take the number to your vets and fill in any forms there. The RSPCA does not even see whatever pet you need help with.
> 
> Anyway I will call into the little old mans house tomorrow at the end of the block, the man whos only company is his little jack russel and tell him because he lives on a rubbish pension he has to rehome his dog : victory:


He gets a pension then he is entitled to have his dog cared for by the PDSA.


This isnt just about vet care etc what about if one of the ceramics went on a viv or a thermostat broke? or maybe even the 12ft burm has managed to pop the glass it has been known.
I do hope that all the people on here saying they have no money for vet bills wont say that they dont have the money to replace the basic needs of the animals in question.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Meko said:


> what if one of your dogs were ill and you couldn't afford the insurance premium because you were out of work? To me my dogs are part of the family and being told i shouldn't have my dogs if i can't afford vet bills would be like saying i should put my kids up for adoption because i'm skint.


dont agree .

if your kids are sick.. NHS will treat and save them free of charge, i think its the same south as north of the border anyway

we dont have a reptile NHS.. sadly

I have 2 kids.. and 13 reps and 2 cats.. i am on dla .. a single mum.. so im not some rich bitch with a fancy house and car rolling in it... and i manage... because i save like mad and put away every spare penny towards my animals usually around 8 pounds per week..... if i couldnt afford that i would judge myself the same.. and know i shouldnt have them

isnt it better for keepers to have ONE animal they CAN afford to give optimum care to than 10 they cant..

because it seems to me on here that SOME saying they cant afford vet bills are the ones who buy more and more animals

anyway as i said my arguement is simly the fact you should have the minimum of ONE consultation fee ... otherwise ure left looking at a sick injured or unwell animal in pain.. and youre responsible

ALSO

what if a thermostat broke.. a dimmer.. 50 quid

a uv bulb.. 15 to 30 quid

a heat mat 15 quid

a tank broke.. 50 to 200 quid
etc etc


or any other peice of equipment

what then

this is ridiculous that people seriously havent got the cash to care properly in these eventualities.. it does my head in


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

Tina said:


> What if someone, when they buy their pets (whatever they may be), has a good income and can afford any vets bills that come along or can afford to pay for pet insurance... but then they lose their job?
> 
> Would someone say 'they shouldn't have bought a pet' then?
> 
> ...


I'm a grey area.

I'm bankrupt so have no money to spend on anything at all, let alone vets.

However that hasn't stopped me from finding the money when I've had animals which needed to go see a vet. Whether you have money or not, if you truely care for your animal you'll find a way. I always have


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Faith said:


> He gets a pension then he is entitled to have his dog cared for by the PDSA.
> 
> 
> This isnt just about vet care etc what about if one of the ceramics went on a viv or a thermostat broke? or maybe even the 12ft burm has managed to pop the glass it has been known.
> I do hope that all the people on here saying they have no money for vet bills wont say that they dont have the money to replace the basic needs of the animals in question.


 
excellent point...

i really wonder what goes on in peoples heads when they buy reps.. they need CARE and they have requirements...

equipment and food

if ANY one of these goes wrong..,whether health or husbandry if you cant afford it.. no you shouldnt have the animal

if an elderly ladies dog is found emaciated and dying because she cant afford to feed it.. is that ok.. or is it only ok if i does due to lack of vet attention..

when does the line get crossed

if a forumites animal dies due to lack of vet care will WE care.. or is it acceptable as long as its due to lack of vet care due to being skint!!!!!!!!


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## Prettyjoby (Aug 11, 2008)

Fangio said:


> I'm a grey area.
> 
> I'm bankrupt so have no money to spend on anything at all, let alone vets.
> 
> However that hasn't stopped me from finding the money when I've had animals which needed to go see a vet. Whether you have money or not, if you truely care for your animal you'll find a way. I always have


agreed ^^


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

sparkle said:


> excellent point...
> if ANY one of these goes wrong..,whether health or husbandry if you cant afford it.. no you shouldnt have the animal!


If something went wrong and it was a bad week for me and i couldnt take it to the vets who the hell are you to say i dont deserve the animal?


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Fangio said:


> I'm a grey area.
> 
> I'm bankrupt so have no money to spend on anything at all, let alone vets.
> 
> However that hasn't stopped me from finding the money when I've had animals which needed to go see a vet. Whether you have money or not, if you truely care for your animal you'll find a way. I always have


 
Ive had to sell jewellery... books do car boot sales etc to get cash for my reptile fund but i always replenish it..

as i said i save a £1 a day on average... and only use it when i need and never ever dip into it for anything else...

theres LOADS people can cut down on to do this.. they just dont..


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## Magik (Jul 22, 2008)

I cant remember the last time I actually bought something for myself every penny I get go to bills(Including the animals)


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> If something went wrong and it was a bad week for me and i couldnt take it to the vets who the hell are you to say i dont deserve the animal?


Its not the keepers that will be saying it, it will be the people that enforce the AWA.


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

Faith said:


> Its not the keepers that will be saying it, it will be the people that enforce the AWA.


Im going on about keepers not the AWA enforcers. When someone asks for help we should not be telling them they dont deserve to keep animals, or have we become enforcers now? Or are we all riding a high moral horse whenever something goes wrong for people yet hiding our own mistakes so people dont find out? Would you rather newbies not asking for help when things go wrong because thats whats happening at the moment.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> If something went wrong and it was a bad month for me and i couldnt take it to the vets who the hell are you to say i dont deserve the animal?


i didnt say DESERVE you did,...

did you know its against the law NOT to treat a sick animal.. DID YOU EVEN KNOW THAT 

I have personally given out cash ot newbies and teens on froum to take their animals to vets.. so obviously im not this horrid person u think i am

none of us DESERVE animals.. they are not toys or possesions they are living beings that rely on us..

like my children

if i had a bad month ( and what exactly is that .. i save hard so i have money in the bank actually) and my kids werent fed or taken to the doctors when sick.. isnt that child abuse..

what is it for animals then..

we have a bad month and watch them die of parasites cos we cant afford to have them seen.. and im supposed to feel sorry for who>> you or the animal

everyone is getting so defensive here about their god given right to OWN animals..

what about the animals.. oh i forgot loving them lots keeps them alive .. feeling you deserve your animal means it wont die of infection or sickness...even when we have bad months and cant afford to replace their bulbs or take them to the vet when they are sick surely they will be ok cos i say i love them..

NOT

this is a pointless arguement..


be defensive .. but it wont keep your animal alive if its sick..

lets hope to goodness for the ones who DO have animals they cant afford to even change a uv or dud heat mat that doesnt happen..


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## Dave-Flames (Sep 20, 2006)

I must be local cause my local PDSA does do reps...


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> If something went wrong and it was a bad week for me and i couldnt take it to the vets who the hell are you to say i dont deserve the animal?


Most will see an animal and let you pay a bit later on if prearranged to do so. My vet knows my monitary position and has said to me we'll always work a way around it.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Dave-Flames said:


> I must be local cause my local PDSA does do reps...


 
thats excellent dave

ours dont


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## Magik (Jul 22, 2008)

Fangio said:


> Most will see an animal and let you pay a bit later on if prearranged to do so. My vet knows my monitary position and has said to me we'll always work a way around it.


I suppose then a big thing to do is to become friendly with a good reptile vet coz you never know when you will need them!


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

Sparkle - Try and calm down a bit in your posts... even though i partly agree with you, you always come across as really aggressive and emotional.:2thumb:


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

sparkle said:


> i didnt say DESERVE you did,...
> 
> did you know its against the law NOT to treat a sick animal.. DID YOU EVEN KNOW THAT U PILLOCK.


No you implied it. If you actually posted in a coherent manner and not resort to insults your points may have had some merit.

Ive been lucky that i haven't needed to take any of my animals to the vets. Spiders are all treated at home as theres nothing vets can do which make up the bulk of my collection. Im not saying i WOULDN'T take an animal to the vet but sometimes there are bad weeks and its simply not possible.


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> No you implied it. If you actually posted in a coherent manner and not resort to insults your points may have had some merit.


She didn't write pillock... she hasn't edited her old post and it would say so if she had!


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## Dave-Flames (Sep 20, 2006)

I have never used them though.. i've been using the same vet for years and have total confidence in him..


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

bradhollands999 said:


> She didn't write pillock... she hasn't edited her old post and it would say so if she had!


Actually she did thats a direct and unedited quote.


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## royalnking (Mar 26, 2007)

Faith said:


> Its not the keepers that will be saying it, it will be the people that enforce the AWA.


good point there really isn't anything to argue about. we have a legal duty of care to our animals and this includes vet treatment, as and when needed.
I haven't read this particular thread but it is no use comparing it to people who initially could afford the bills and then find themselves in unfortunate circumstances. Some people buy without even the initial thought of if something goes wrong what shall I do? and it needs to stop the animals should come first not the feelings of anybody.


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> Actually she did thats a direct and unedited quote.


How comes it doesn't say she edited her previous post then? It normally does, i'm sure!:lol2:


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

bradhollands999 said:


> How comes it doesn't say she edited her previous post then? It normally does, i'm sure!:lol2:


I added a bit to mine and it didnt show up as edited. I think its something new with the forum.

-----------------

Anyway this topic is going off the point. Im stating what right YOU have to tell people they dont deserve their animals. If i said that to anyone im sure there would be an outcry.


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Another one bites the dust!
Yet another thread where people cant express opinons against the OP.
Its seems as though if people dont agree with the starter of the thread they all turn in to an argument atm.

Its not directed at the OP just an observation adlock:


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

royalnking said:


> good point there really isn't anything to argue about. we have a legal duty of care to our animals and this includes vet treatment, as and when needed.
> I haven't read this particular thread but it is no use comparing it to people who initially could afford the bills and then find themselves in unfortunate circumstances. Some people buy without even the initial thought of if something goes wrong what shall I do? and it needs to stop the animals should come first not the feelings of anybody.


 
Finally someone who uses their head! :notworthy:
We have a duty of care that means vet treatment!


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

Faith said:


> Another one bites the dust!
> Yet another thread where people cant express opinons against the OP.
> Its seems as though if people dont agree with the started of the thread they all turn in to an argument atm.
> 
> Its not directed at the OP just an observation adlock:


It has been happening frequently. This was meant to be a serious discussion about what right we have to tell people they should keep their animals and how to address problems with people unable/refusing to take their animals to the vets. However its ended up as this.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Meko said:


> what if one of your dogs were ill and you couldn't afford the insurance premium because you were out of work?


Well firstly neither of my dogs are insured and secondly this is a different matter because the dogs belong to me and my partner the reptiles are mine. However i always know where i can go for help money wise. My vet would never say NO simply because i couldnt pay there and then not in a sheer emergency. I dunno its a tough one to answer because i have always found money from someone or some where.

Marina


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> It has been happening frequently. This was meant to be a serious discussion about what right we have to tell people they should keep their animals and how to address problems with people unable/refusing to take their animals to the vets. However its ended up as this.


 
Fair enough, 
No one can FORCE anyone to take an animal to the vet (well not a fellow keeper) we can and however i will try to presure them to take the rep to the vet if needs be.
We dont have a "right" to tell people if they can or cant keep animals we dont however have a "right" to keep animals.

We have by law, a duty of care to any animal we keep, the law states if we cant uphold to that duty of care then we shouldnt have the privalidge to keep animals at all, believe it or not thats one part of the law i agree with!

One less reptile to feed would save a fair bit for some people that cant afford reptile treatment (lets face it its an expensive hobby)

We rescue reptiles, dont think any donation we get actually covers the cost of treatment cus it dont, dont think us breeding and importing makes us money because it costs us more than we make.

Our live food bill can cost as much as £90 a week, but if one of our animals were sick we have the consoultation fee saved to get them seen asap.

To me its like having a sick child and not being able to drive, then saying to social services "sorry i didnt have the money for a cab"

Our animals have the right to a good home, food and safety as well as treatment when needed, if we cant give them that then no maybe we shouldnt be keeping as many as some of us do, us included.

Thats my say on the subject.


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

Faith said:


> Fair enough,
> No one can FORCE anyone to take an animal to the vet (well not a fellow keeper) we can and however i will try to presure them to take the rep to the vet if needs be.
> We dont have a "right" to tell people if they can or cant keep animals we dont however have a "right" to keep animals.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Although i don't believe that we should say they don't deserve animals i do believe that coaxing them to go to the vets with the response of payment plans etc is the best way. None of us have the right to keep animals, we all know this, in a perfect non selfish world none of us would keep animals but most of the time they do better in our care than they would in the wild. The threat of miss-keeping animals is always above our heads but i would like to believe we keep them in good health out of our love for them rather than legal threats. However some people don't which is why i believe we need that law in place. After working on a farm in my youth i seen some tragic cases of animal cruelty. We had a rescue dog that couldn't stand as it didn't have the room to do so as it was kept in a kennel and cuts and bruises for being beaten when the owner couldn't get it to hunt rabbits successfully.

One less animal always makes the feeding payment a lot cheaper. Out of my entire collection one of my animals eats 10/20 times more than my entire collection put together as it consists mainly of spiders. The spiders being one of the things you cannot take to the vet as they will do exactly what you would do to treat them at home and vets are not exactly trained for invertebrates. I make sure the animals never needs a vet by keeping extremely good care of them so if something bad did happen its unlikely to be serious. Now im not saying when im hard on cash i wouldnt take it to a vet, if i even thought there was a problem it would go in immediatly if i had the cash on hand even if it meant going without food/cigs/caffeen/working extra days. But imagine i posted on the forums about a problem and i didnt know too much about reptiles only to be told i didnt deserve to keep them, even selling stuff takes a day or two. Coupled with the stress of having an injured animal i hate to say it but it would reduce me to tears. We should be offering ways of cutting out the main problem and some of the symptoms if possible.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> No you implied it. If you actually posted in a coherent manner and not resort to insults your points may have had some merit.
> 
> .


she said it on her first post and then edited it then had a go at me for replying to her unedited post.



bradhollands999 said:


> How comes it doesn't say she edited her previous post then? It normally does, i'm sure!:lol2:


if you edit it quickly it doesn't show as 'edited by....' but after the 'cooling off period' it adds the line.




Marinam2 said:


> Well firstly neither of my dogs are insured and secondly this is a different matter because the dogs belong to me and my partner the reptiles are mine. However i always know where i can go for help money wise. My vet would never say NO simply because i couldnt pay there and then not in a sheer emergency. I dunno its a tough one to answer because i have always found money from someone or some where.
> 
> Marina


me too but if you were in the situation where your dog was ill and neither of you had the available cash i'm sure you wouldn't be happy to have somebody telling you that you don't deserve to have them because you don't have the money at hand. 
Being able to pay the vet bill and being able to scrat about, dig down the side of the sofa or beg steal and borrow it are different. The latter is making sure you get the money.

Although i'm not sure why people are babbling on about broken stats and heat mats etc. The topic of this thread is ANIMALS and not specifically reptiles.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

In the instance referred to of a 13 year old boy - a 13 year old is not responsible for the vet treatment of an animal. He cannot take it to the vets. Never have a go at a child, have a go at the parents. However, as that 13 year old has repeatedly asked for - and then ignored advice (that had no financial attachments), and has chosen not to do the best for the welfare of his animals in looking after them because he didn't want to, I can understand how frustrated and angry members can get. It is not an isolated incident and the other factors have to be added to that incident.

Any ADULT who says they couldn't afford a vet bill if it came up is being unrealistic. Tesco value tastes like crap but it's cheap. Humans can live a few months on beans on toast, rice and water. It's still a better meal than most 3rd world countries. You don't need booze, you don't need luxuries, I think I need chocolate to survive, but if it came to it.. I could probably live without it  You don't need a tv, a stereo, you don't need a computer, you don't need to use your mobile phone, hell, do you need a sofa, you can sit on the floor if it came to it!

If you don't want to make that sacrifice, even potentially, sometime in the future, that's fine. No one is forcing you to. Just sell the animal, it's not your responsibility and you don't have to worry about future vet bills. You choose to keep that animal, you had better be prepared to do everything in your power to care for it adequately - including vets if necessary. 

Every time I get a rescue in it is because someone has CHOSEN not to sacrifice anything in their lives for their animal and usually doesn't even have the spine to admit that to me. I have never had someone come to me honestly and say - I've lost my job, I've lost my house, I'm homeless, I have no vet, I have nothing I can take anymore from my life, nothing I can sacrifice, please, will you help me?

And if they did come to me openly and honestly I would take the animal on and do what was necessary for it. If anyone ever gets to that stage, there are people they can go to. If you post an animal for rehoming up on this forum even if it needs vet treatment, I think that you will find someone willing to help take the animal on.

Maybe this is hypocritical of me as I have never yet had to sell my life off in order to give my animals what they needed. But I like to think, if I had to sacrifice every material thing that meant anything to me, I would do so, rather than let my animals suffer. If I saw a downward spiral looming on the horizon, such as losing my job, I would have to reassess, and work out how much money I could raise if I needed it, and if it was fair, to keep so many animals that I do.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Meko said:


> me too but if you were in the situation where your dog was ill and neither of you had the available cash i'm sure you wouldn't be happy to have somebody telling you that you don't deserve to have them because you don't have the money at hand


Thing is though Meko i understand what you are getting at but i would NEVER HOLD OFF a vet trip because of cash flow. I would get them there regardless. The people we are talking about on here HAVE WITHHELD that trip for the sake of cash flow and these are the people that in my mind should have a rather large military boot up the bum.

Marina


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## CaseyM (Nov 8, 2006)

Emergency vet trips are the only reason my overdraft exists, if i dont need it i dont touch it, if i ever do its there : victory:


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Meko..
since when was your happiness more important than a viewpoint about animal treatment and care.
An animal forum is not a counselling arena to make sure you are happy and feel GOOD about your animal keeping or choices fortheir vetinary care. 

What amazes me is you are more outraged at me changing a post very very slightly when i realised I was a bit over the top than you are at people arguing they should be allowed as many animals as they wish without being able to afford vet bills... although i can see why with your arguementative nature that the ONLY thing in this thread you can say against my viewpoint is that...

the rest you cant argue with..,

because my view is that everyone with animals should have the cash put aside for intial consultation... and that view is 100% correct..otherwise its unfair on the animal.. even other forumites agree with this... 


I said i changed ONE tiny bit of the post slighlty as i read it over as i usually do and realised i was a tad too emotional when i typed it.. which when it comes to sick and injured animals guess what.. i get emotional.. not for myself saying POOR PEOPLE cant afford a vet.. but poor bloomin animal



I said that people should not have SEVERAL animals if they cant afford one consultation fee at the vet... the fact you are insitsting on twistinga word and then lots of other forumites jumping on the word deserve is nuts.. but then maybe it was the ONLY point worth arguing ove rhere..
certainly the welfare of animals when sick didnt seem your main concern only whether peopel felt they DESERVED the animal...
if you want to be perdantic and turn this into an arguement about ONE word or ONE sentance go ahead..

and the suggestion a child should be adopted if a parent is skint was nuts... that comparison is MUTE... we have nhs tocover things like that.. so the not only is the comparison mute its pointless..
my point was only ever this.. 

the people who moan about having no money for vet bills have plenty of animals in their sigs... why dont they have less animals and provide optimum care than keep buying more they cant afford to treat..
I agree with the forumites here who state that it is a duty of care legally AND morally to provide treatment for a sick or injured animal.. if you cant do this then i still believe you should not have the animal... whether you deserve it or not doesnt come into it does it.. 

I would love MORE ... but I recently downsized by giving THREE to my ex partner and selling ONE on here... due to a relationship break up and now save 20 pounds per week on food bills... this goes to my VET POT... i dont touch it.. dont even see it as MY money.. its for my animals if they need treatment or care.. NO i didnt want to sell or give any away but did i do whats right.. YES... i can now be rest assured that any that need treatment will get it
I may be an opinionated keeper on this subject but i feel i am being way more responsible and sensible than the ones who are getting angry and defensive ...
oh poor me ive no money but i still DESERVE my animals.. thats a pointless comment and one that wont help any animal but only the FEELINGS of the keeper...


I asked my 11 year old daughter this morning if we didnt have the money for vets bills should we keep our animals.. i did not tell her why i asked her nor promt her answer


MY daughter said ..
NO because those animals need us to look after them and if we cant then thats wrong
( now maybe thats very simple.. but then shes 11)

she then said

what if Lemon our beardie hurt himself.. how is it fair to watch him be sore Mum..
I then said ok so how do I manage my vet bills what do you think we do differently than other people who cant afford vet bills if the animal is ill...
she said
Mum you dont go out anywhere much.. like for dinner or to a pub, or do stuff like bowling or buy us toys except at birthdays.. you buy your clothes cheap off ebay and we dont go on holidays... why cant those people do that


if you do any of the following

1. smoke
2. have a drink
3. go out with mates
4. go to cinema
5. buy magazines
6. buy make up
7. holidays
8 buy sweets ( mainly for the kids lol)

surely you can take a quid a day or a fiver a week away from some or one of that list to go towards a VET Pot for your animals.. that way if and when an emergency arises you will have at least a first consultation fee and then be able to discuss a payment plan at vets.. all vets I know do them...

I have brought up my daughter to understand the FULL implication of having animals.. genuine responsibility and although we love our animals they are not possesions...
we dont DESERVE them or have a RIGHT to have them.. im sorry I cant see living things that way.. we have a DUTY of care... as i said legally and morally..

simple.. and that includes vet bills , food and husbandry
If meko you wish to argue over ONE small sentance i changed that weirdly enough you said made me arguement STRONGER then you are a hypocrite.. you cant say it made my arguement more plausable THEN suggest it was wrong.. thats daft... 

I can be very forceful and at times and possibly a bit unfair on people who I feel are lacking in their view towards their animals.. but im a softie undeneath or else i wouldnt be offering to pay for vet bills for people or take them 50 miles to a vet which i have done on numerous occasionsthis year.. the very people I am speaking out against are the ones i help.. why becuase as i said.. i care more about the animals than the people
I do however always explain to them NEXT time put a little bit of cash away for a consultation...and usually when they see how they can save a little every week they do..


this thread hasnt been pointless.. more people read than reply.. and as for the person who the thread was initially about i hope people realise hes been caught lying 4 or 5 times about what animals he genuinely has and also the fact he has lied about many other things on this forum.. yes its forgivable maybe.. but i have said timeand time again parents should not allow kids animals IF they cant afford to keep the animals properly and have treatment if required.

and if ONE keeper cuts out 10 **** a week and uses that for the VET POT for their animals.. then theres been a good reason for it to be here.. and non smokers im SURE can find other ways..


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

royalnking said:


> good point there really isn't anything to argue about. we have a legal duty of care to our animals and this includes vet treatment, as and when needed.
> I haven't read this particular thread but it is no use comparing it to people who initially could afford the bills and then find themselves in unfortunate circumstances. Some people buy without even the initial thought of if something goes wrong what shall I do? and it needs to stop the animals should come first not the feelings of anybody.


 

:notworthy: great post

and exaclty the point im making

i dont give a feck about the feelings of the keepers... if they cant afford vet treatment then i care more about the ill animal

how anyone FEELS is irrelevant to the fact the animal needs care and attention whether its ill or not!!!!!!


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## linda.t (Sep 28, 2007)

i know that if any of my childrens pets needed to go to the vets,i would pay for there treatment as they would only have been able to have pets in the first place if i said they could.so i the long run there care is down to me as well as my children.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

linda.t said:


> i know that if any of my childrens pets needed to go to the vets,i would pay for there treatment as they would only have been able to have pets in the first place if i said they could.so i the long run there care is down to me as well as my children.


 
100%

which is why when any young person panics on here about cash flow i gently suggest go to your parents and explain why its required..

the fact this got so heated is the poster in question the 13 year old boy is a well known liar and stirrer on this forum as the mods etc are aware.. he repeatedly says his animals are sick then totallyn ignores advice.. then comes on days and weeks later saying they are still sick or ill.. how can that be condoned no matter what a persons age.. either he is lying again.. OR his parents seriously dont care which to my mind is animal cruelty

no child that age is repsonsible for the legal care of an animal.. but the parents are..

as are all the adults on this thread arguing including myself..

i cant see where the arguement is.. being emotive is fine.. putting your feelings before an animals health isnt

if you have animals they are your responsibility.... legally and morally.. therefore be repsonsible not emotional when it comes to their health


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## Elisha Metcalf (Sep 12, 2008)

sparkle said:


> 100%
> 
> which is why when any young person panics on here about cash flow i gently suggest go to your parents and explain why its required..
> 
> ...


just reading some of this, what happened with the 13 year old boy?? who i she?


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Faith said:


> Our animals have the right to a good home, food and safety as well as treatment when needed, if we cant give them that then no maybe we shouldnt be keeping as many as some of us do, us included.


I quite agree Faith - keeping pets is not a basic human right, it's a luxury, and like any luxury it will cost money. If you can't afford it, then you shouldn't keep them ... and changes in life circumstances might well mean that you have to reassess the luxuries you can afford in life, including possibly some of your pets. Wouldn't be an easy choice to make, but when is that sort of situation ever easy?

Just a note about insurance. When one of my cats got ill, the cost totalled about £4000 once all was said and done. The insurance did pay up for it, but in the meantime we still had to pay the vets that money ... insurance will pay you back, but in most circumstances you will still need to pay the vets while the insurance processes a claim (and even decides if you're eligible for a payout). Insurance isn't an alternative to having sufficient funds to treat an ill animal.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

sparkle said:


> Meko..
> since when was your happiness more important than a viewpoint about animal treatment and care.
> An animal forum is not a counselling arena to make sure you are happy and feel GOOD about your animal keeping or choices fortheir vetinary care.


and that is in response to what? who mentioned my happiness?



> What amazes me is you are more outraged at me changing a post very very slightly when i realised I was a bit over the top than you are at people arguing they should be allowed as many animals as they wish without being able to afford vet bills... although i can see why with your arguementative nature that the ONLY thing in this thread you can say against my viewpoint is that...
> 
> the rest you cant argue with..,
> 
> ...


you can piss off if you think i've got the time or inclination to read your ramblings just to try and justify yourself to yourself.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

100% agree with this post.As alot of you know i ahve been through a sh*te 2 years, mum left and has left me and my faily with nothing, i coudlnt really afford vets but i still went, i had payment plans, me i '''suffered''' - i didnt reallly, but i still now cannot go out (i can maybe once a month or so) i dont go drinkign or smoking, i dont splash out, i dont buy new clothes, i now and my whole family eat tesco value food, or reduced isle stuff, everythign has been cut down everything, ut we like it that way, our reptiles, mammals, cats etc etc get everything they need, we may think we cant afford it at the begginning but think about it? do we need to go to a footi match on sunday (costign £20) no... do we need a take away on friday (costing £10..) no..
me personally i woudl prefer to make sacrifices to me, to keep my reps...and cats etc..
But if it can to the time that i honestly ocouldnt give up anythign else, i would for the sake of the animals have to get rid, not beacuse im a bad owner but because i care for them..
This has very near;y happened ot me this last year, but its finnially getting better, finially..

I thnk everyone can get the money somehow wether it be the crsdit card, borrowing money, payment plan, selling somthing, stopping doing somthing and so on.. having said that if i got a vets bill for £4,000 there is no way i coudl afford that...hmmph


Athravan said:


> In the instance referred to of a 13 year old boy - a 13 year old is not responsible for the vet treatment of an animal. He cannot take it to the vets. Never have a go at a child, have a go at the parents. However, as that 13 year old has repeatedly asked for - and then ignored advice (that had no financial attachments), and has chosen not to do the best for the welfare of his animals in looking after them because he didn't want to, I can understand how frustrated and angry members can get. It is not an isolated incident and the other factors have to be added to that incident.
> 
> Any ADULT who says they couldn't afford a vet bill if it came up is being unrealistic. Tesco value tastes like crap but it's cheap. Humans can live a few months on beans on toast, rice and water. It's still a better meal than most 3rd world countries. You don't need booze, you don't need luxuries, I think I need chocolate to survive, but if it came to it.. I could probably live without it  You don't need a tv, a stereo, you don't need a computer, you don't need to use your mobile phone, hell, do you need a sofa, you can sit on the floor if it came to it!
> 
> ...


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

this is daft.. and tbh some ppl sound like their putting pets before family.


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## gtm (Jan 23, 2008)

If my animals get sick they go to the vet no questions asked. Fortunately I've never been in a position whereby I can't pay a vets bill but if I was and it looked to be long term I'd rehome them.


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## dracco (May 17, 2008)

Well got to add my thoughts I love all my reps and have not really been in the position where I have not been able to pay for vet treatment but also I do struggle some weeks as a mother of four kids it is hard but I do put my kids first at all times and we do go on holiday every year(not abroad) as I had a childhood where we had no holidays and want better for my kids but that doesnt mean my reps suffer if I did have to take one to the vet and had no money I would find some way to pay but this i not always possible for folk circumstances do change I know cause it happened to me my oh lost his job and the result of this was we lost our house and had to go into rented accomidation and was a long struggle and still can be but that doesnt mean I shouldnt be allowed to keep reps or any animal as all my animals are well looked after and if I can not give them the care they need then I would rehome them and I will add I have been in the situation that I have considered this but have managed to pull through and a for the 13yr old boy I think he comes on here and writes bogus threads to stirr everyone up.I could be wrong but that is my oppinion


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

jesuslovestheladies said:


> this is daft.. and tbh some ppl sound like their putting pets before family.



*My pets are my family* and i treat them as such.
Marina


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## Starshine Tara (Jun 22, 2008)

Marinam2 said:


> Treatment may be costly but a consult costs barely nothing and if you don't have at least £30 in your bank for emergencies you really shouldn't be keeping animals of any sort.


This is what I was saying on that thread you are referring to, Lucifus.

I stand by every word.

I am not ashamed.

Tara xxx


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## snickers (Aug 15, 2007)

If you have a job and spare money, noone is gonna say it's a bad thing to get some reptiles. If you lose your job why does it suddenly become a bad thing to have reptiles?

I lost my job about a year ago. I had no money coming in, but I still had a car and a flat screen telly, and ... Was I suddenly a morally bad person? And then when I got a new job presumably I then became suddenly a morally good person again.

Sorry but things happen, life isn't a bed of roses, sometimes things are suboptimal and you won't have money to throw at vets, or food, or a car etc. You do the best you can with what you've got.


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

snickers said:


> If you have a job and spare money, noone is gonna say it's a bad thing to get some reptiles. If you lose your job why does it suddenly become a bad thing to have reptiles?
> 
> I lost my job about a year ago. I had no money coming in, but I still had a car and a flat screen telly, and ... Was I suddenly a morally bad person? And then when I got a new job presumably I then became suddenly a morally good person again.
> 
> Sorry but things happen, life isn't a bed of roses, sometimes things are suboptimal and you won't have money to throw at vets, or food, or a car etc. You do the best you can with what you've got.


 
If it came to the crunch when you lost your job that one of your animals needed extensive vet treatment would you have done everything you could to get it to the vet on time?
I presume that as you were still running a car you had money to put in for the petrol costs etc.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

spot on there Snickers.. i had a job, widescreen TV, full surround sound, sports car etc etc. I lost my job so i sold my beardie, collard and 3 leo's just to make ends meet. 
Some people will say i should have sold the car and TV and computer etc but all i hear is blah blah blah.
If i sell my tv and car (which i'd have needed to get to interviews) etc then i could have fed myself, the dogs, the reps and paid the bills till i got a new job. If i sold the reps i could afford to eat and when the money ran out i'd have had to sell the TV and surround sound and the things i didn't need (except the computer and car) to carry on eating rather than waste money feeding reps i might have had to sell anyway.

It was the right choice, i wasn't spending extra on electricity, crickets and veg etc and when i got a new job i was leaving the house at 7:30am and getting home around 6:30pm which wouldn't have left much time for time.


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## repti-mon (Aug 31, 2007)

Havent read all the thread but here's my view....

I always make sure my animals vet fees can be paid for either by credit card or cash if its in my bank and i get it sorted asap. 
Its YOUR responsibility to look after YOUR animals as the owner and keeper. If you cant do that then you shouldn't have the animal, I'd rather rack up a grand debt on my credit card to help my poorly animals than let it wait a week or month and let the condition get worse or possibly die, let alone the pain and suffering caused to the animal.
On wednesday night one of my kittens got his claw/toe caught in a gap on the freezer door and was hanging off the freezer by his claw/toe and making a terrible sound! I did what I could to wrap his foot up which was bleeding as his pad and nail was sliced open and rang the vets in the morning. Had it sorted in under 12 hours and now he's got a proper sticky bandage on and buster collar. If I had left his wound a week or two it could have very probably got infected and ended up becoming a much worse problem. Total cost £40.
Similarly I collected a Boa off a forum member recently which turned out to have an abcess, yet another unexpected vet bill, operation and following injections straight on the credit card as cash was low. Total cost £180. 

In my opinion if you cant pay for there wellbeing then you shouldnt have them-end of.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Faith said:


> If it came to the crunch when you lost your job that one of your animals needed extensive vet treatment would you have done everything you could to get it to the vet on time?
> I presume that as you were still running a car you had money to put in for the petrol costs etc.


i would have done everything i could but can't give up the car. It may sound strange but i do need the car. I don't work in the local corner shop, i have a career and i could have got a job anywhere from 2 miles away to 30 miles away and need to get there on time and then home. There's no point adding 2 hours travel time each way as it wouldn't be cost effective a 12 hour day would kill me and not leave me any time for the animals.
Plus i live 30 miles from my family and spend Christmas there, i can't drag 2 dogs on a bus, a train and then another bus or a tram everytime i stay over at my mums house.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

repti-mon said:


> Havent read all the thread but here's my view....
> 
> 
> In my opinion if you cant pay for there wellbeing then you shouldnt have them-end of.


what a lot of people are talking about now is a change of circumstances. Dogs can live to around 15, reps to around 20 and you can't 100% say you'll always have money in that time span.


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## bluetongued (Apr 25, 2007)

I know this subject is not black and white, I don't have insurance for any of my pets but BUT..If one of them is in pain it has to be taken to the vets...THE END!!

I am lucky my vet will let me pay over a few weeks or months depending on the size of the bill and I will cut back on other things we may have done that week.

I know if I asked my kids would they rather not have pets and therefore have more money I am 100% sure they would rather have dogs/cats/chickens/reptiles.


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## repti-mon (Aug 31, 2007)

Meko said:


> what a lot of people are talking about now is a change of circumstances. Dogs can live to around 15, reps to around 20 and you can't 100% say you'll always have money in that time span.


I understand that but there are usually still ways of paying for things....I use my credit card when I have no money and then just be very careful with my money over the coming month or two to pay back the card.


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Meko said:


> i would have done everything i could but can't give up the car. It may sound strange but i do need the car. I don't work in the local corner shop, i have a career and i could have got a job anywhere from 2 miles away to 30 miles away and need to get there on time and then home. There's no point adding 2 hours travel time each way as it wouldn't be cost effective a 12 hour day would kill me and not leave me any time for the animals.
> Plus i live 30 miles from my family and spend Christmas there, i can't drag 2 dogs on a bus, a train and then another bus or a tram everytime i stay over at my mums house.


But at that time you would have had money to put petrol in the car?
So if needed the petrol money for that week could have been put towards any vet treatment if it had been needed.

Didnt mean get rid of the car lol, but its obvious meko you would do what you need to to get one of your animals to the vets, and that would include you going with out something for that month. 
Thats all we are saying, is that everyone should at least have a consoltation fee in the bank or laying around in change somewhere. 
I know when we had our last clear out we ended up with £40 laying about the house in change 50ps that sort of thing.
Its gone to the kids for their holiday money this week but if one of the reps needed treatment we have the consoultation fee in the bank, or at least some way of getting it.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

repti-mon said:


> I understand that but there are usually still ways of paying for things....I use my credit card when I have no money and then just be very careful with my money over the coming month or two to pay back the card.


 
to be honest when i lost my job my credit cards we all maxed out on surviving and thats one of the reasons the reps went. There was too much money going out including food for the reps. 
Although i do find it strange that some people want to buy a lot of pets and have to cut back. Personally i'd rather have a few pets and a comfortable life.


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## Heim (Aug 3, 2008)

Oooo this thread kinda presents an opening for some of my own curiousities.

Right basically after reading this forum for a couple of months, it would seem many people have a good number of reptiles, happily breed them, and cater to their every whim. People post all sorts of care plans that (especially for baby reps) involve numerous feedings throughout the day, plus regular health checks etc etc. People spend hours a day making sure their pets are kept right.

All sounds good and gravy, and I can see why you do it, and much respect to those that care for animals with such great details.

My questions: How?

As people are quite happily posting on this site, vet bills can be enormous, food bills arent cheap when theres tons of hatchlings. Plus then you have the cleaning them out, the rising cost of electric just to power heaters and lights etc.

Without sounding too rude (and im not expecting detailed explanations of your lives and financial status), how does everyone manage to work enough hours in a week, to pay a mortgage/rent, utility bills, food bills, kids stuff, OH stuff (damn black hole of a financial cost there!), car etc etc.

Plus have the time to spend with kids and the OH, AND have the time and cash to invest in all these care routines for sometimes seems like dozens of pets?! (obviously full time shops and breeders are cheating  haha)

Im not having a go at anyone here, this is geniune curiousity!. I have a home, kids and OH to support. Im currently employed with a decent contractor at the moment as a 'Planning Engineer', on a nice salary for my area, part way through completing my 'pet room' and first vivarium and Im now actually feeling guilty and having second thoughts about it, as I wont have the time to wipe his backside on demand!. Obviously I plan to spend time with my new pet and enjoy him/her... but well, Ill stop waffling, you get the jist of this post.

So is most of this just scare tactics? Is it really that costly and time consuming?


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I think people are taking things a bit out of context.

You have a job. You buy reptiles. You lose job. You keep reptiles. That's fine. You keep your TV, your luxuries, keep what you can afford. You can't afford them anymore, you choose to sell the reptiles, that's fine. That's not morally wrong, it's not irresponsible, it's certainly not illegal, you make that choice for priorities.

However, if you chose not to sell those animals, and your animal was hit by a car, broke a leg, started convulsing, whatever - your animal is in pain, it is suffering, right now - it needs medical treatment. If you CHOOSE to not treat that animal because of the cost then you are irresponsible, and are breaking the law. 

To me there is no issue with people choosing or not choosing to keep animals. The issue is if it comes down to it, and your dog or whatever animal is crying in pain in front of you, suffering, and potentially dying without treatment, if you choose not to get treatment, because you don't have the money when your **** or your booze or your tv are more important to you..... then that is unforgiveable.

People who come onto a forums to ask medical advice and are told to see a vet but say "I can't afford it", - a consult is only £30 at the end of the day!


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Faith said:


> But at that time you would have had money to put petrol in the car?
> So if needed the petrol money for that week could have been put towards any vet treatment if it had been needed.
> 
> .


aye I would do anything to get them to the vets.. although i do have insurance i've outlayed in the past year:
£150 op on Rio's nose to have a lump removed
£25 jabs for Rio
£180 to have a lump removed from his mouth
£420 to have his jaw removed after the lump turned out to be cancer
£50 for Wils to have her jabs and anti inflamatries when she got a bone caught in her gum
£30 for pills for her when she had a bladder infection and pissed blood all over the kitchen
£120 last week to have her spayed.

Out of that £975, and what was covered, i got about £400 back from the insurance (also costs me £30 a month insurance), but they are my babies :flrt:

With the petrol thing... its a tough call to be honest. When i was out of work making sure i had petrol in the car was one of the most important things. I had 2 interviews in a day once and sometimes 2 or 3 a week so i needed to make sure i could get to them..

like everything, its swings and roundabouts.


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

Starshine Tara said:


> This is what I was saying on that thread you are referring to, Lucifus.
> 
> I stand by every word.
> 
> ...


I don't expect you to be ashamed. In that situation i would be annoyed at the parents for not dishing out the cash which i pressured him in pm but without the "you dont deserve animals", but then again we don't know their financial situation. Whats been getting to me is this morally superior attitude of some people here. Thinking about vets bills is all part of keeping animals and if you don't think of it to begin with then your asking for trouble. 

If they said "i cant take it to a vet...ever" i would be worried, and it does upset me how people view a £25 animal as disposable. I love all of my animals intently and have very few reptiles, more spiders for a reason. Lots of reptiles is an increased chance of needing a vet so i don't keep many, all spider injuries are dealt with at home as vets cant treat them (Hell if they could id take my H.gigas in for a checkup just to watch the fireworks). If one got sick it would go to the vet but some weeks its not possible, being dumped with unexpected bills/charges is not fun however i always skip a night out if im low on cash just to make sure i have some in the bank. Also not many people know this but i have a dependant. Ive been helping to raise my sister now for 8 years and put cash in to help. With only one working parent and myself apart from my sister times can get hard. Given the choice my sister comes above both me and my animals, the same as my animals come before me. Im willing to bet that most of the people here who have 100's of reptiles couldnt afford treatment if a great deal of them got sick at once. Unlikely but its possible.

People who refuse to take animals to the vets due to monitery problems should be preasured by all means, state what can be done and what it means if they dont do it. However its the line "you dont deserve to keep animals" that gets me rilled up. Its an excuse to mount the horse and feel supperior while the other forumites dive in with exactly the same thing. There are people who dont use the line and actually go through the proccess of explaining things. These people im glad for, they actually do something constructive.

Shouldnt we be advising them what to do in the mean time, as well as telling them what will happen if the animal isnt taken to the vets rather than berating them? Its not just the case of the 13 year old im talking about although this is what made me want to post this, nobody actually mentioned if its impaction you should give it a warm bath and massage its sides, if it was mentioned it was really far into the topic. I did that in pm. However what did worry me is how it got this far in the case of the kid? Why did he leave it? It may be because he thought it would go away, or he didnt want a shouting match. Either way we dont know. Even if the boy is a chronic lier, the rest of the topics ive witnessed the infamous line in have been about other people too. People who had all intentions of bringing the animal to the vet but couldnt do it on that day.




Athravan said:


> However, if you chose not to sell those animals, and your animal was hit by a car, broke a leg, started convulsing, whatever - your animal is in pain, it is suffering, right now - it needs medical treatment. If you CHOOSE to not treat that animal because of the cost then you are irresponsible, and are breaking the law.


Id be very worried if someone came onto the forum asking what should they do in that situation rather than taking it to the vets immediately. Thankfully Vets can do emergency treatment on animals, its illegal to refuse. This is why i don't keep mammals such as dogs or cats, theres a big chance of them being run over. In the case of those two in particular theres aid everywhere, just reptiles is the one section that is only select. Its a damn shame PDSA doesnt treat them.



> I think people are taking things a bit out of context.
> You have a job. You buy reptiles. You lose job. You keep reptiles. That's fine. You keep your TV, your luxuries, keep what you can afford. You can't afford them anymore, you choose to sell the reptiles, that's fine. That's not morally wrong, it's not irresponsible, it's certainly not illegal, you make that choice for priorities.


At the end of the day if testicles did hit the wall and i couldn't afford to keep my animals id re-home the reptiles or in the case of some of the spiders sell them, i can feed all 20 on a box of crickets a week. Maybe make some money to pay the bills and keep the reptiles. If an animal got sick and there was absolutely no way i could solve it it would be re-homed and i would pay off the vets bill to the person i gave it to be re-homed too when i had it. Animal is safe and healthy and ive done the responsible thing. However its the being told that just because i or other keeprs don't constantly have £30 in my bank that i shouldnt have them is both upsetting and infuriating. People wouldn't put up with it in person and i don't see why we should here. Not saying some people dont deserve animals, ive seen countless cases of animal cruelty when i was younger, everything from the brick and knife version of castrating horses to dogs kept in squallar conditions. These people dont deserve animals, but just because £30 isnt always around im being likened to these people?


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## repti-mon (Aug 31, 2007)

Meko said:


> to be honest when i lost my job my credit cards we all maxed out on surviving and thats one of the reasons the reps went. There was too much money going out including food for the reps.
> Although i do find it strange that some people want to buy a lot of pets and have to cut back. Personally i'd rather have a few pets and a comfortable life.


Each to their own. 
I have a comfortable enough life and still keep a fair few reps and looking for more in the future! All depends what position your in what your earning and personal preferance really.
I know I can give the correct care for my pets whilst still paying for 'luxuries' for myself. Only last week I bought a new xbox and had to fix my cars alternator yesterday which aint cheap, this saturday i'm going out for a curry and probably getting a blockbuster video 2nite and some wine. I only make cutbacks when I have to but still find the money somewhere to enjoy myself.

Sometimes keeping animals means you have to make sacrifices, like having children...now i'm no expert but from what i gather they require a lot of time and money bit like reptiles :lol2:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

alphakenny1 said:


> this is the excact reason you shoud be covered on pet insurance


Not everything is always covered on pet insurance so its not something you can 100% rely on 

so your statement is very wrong there !!!


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## SnuffBunny (Jan 23, 2008)

Lucifus said:


> If something went wrong and it was a bad week for me and i couldnt take it to the vets who the hell are you to say i dont deserve the animal?


 

So your animals been droped, broken, cant move its back legs...is making a noise as if its in pain...You'd leave it for a week if you was skint?
I don't think you would. You'd find the money.
Most people would do that, skint or not. And if THEY didn't, them kind of people don't deserve animals as pets. FACT.


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Meko said:


> Although i do find it strange that some people want to buy a lot of pets and have to cut back. Personally i'd rather have a few pets and a comfortable life.


I know what you mean. There seems to be regular classified threads where people are selling one of their pets because of an unexpected bill or similar circumstances, or even to pay vet bills for another animal. It seems short-sighted, in a way. Having a number of pets you know you can provide for without stretching yourself so thin seems more sensible.



Lucifus said:


> If an animal got sick and there was absolutely no way i could solve it it would be re-homed and i would pay off the vets bill to the person i gave it to be re-homed too when i had it.


The thing that worries me about this, Lucifus, is the time inbetween the animal becoming ill, and you finding someone who is able and willing to take in a sick animal and pay the vet fees for it. That time could be torture to an animal (even if it initially seems to be a minor illness to us), and the time could mean the difference between simple treatment of an ailment, and necessary humane euthanasia. I hope you don't take this as an attack, and I appreciate the rest of your post, but I hope you understand my concerns on this sort of situation.


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## tomsdragons (Dec 23, 2007)

this is my point...

i use to run a bearded dragon rescue ( tomsdragons!)...lol
but i stopped, at one point i had over 20 dying beard dragons on my door step, all requiring treatment, and so i stopped doing it.. 
why?..

i use to think, il help someone, if they get stuck, or they are in a bad place etc with there reptiles, but out of nearly all the dragons i took in, most were young owners, or people on benifits..

now..

i persoanly think its fine to keep reptile on any income, if you can cover your self..

but..

when people go out, smaoke/ drink/ put a boy racer stripe down there crap ford fiesta and then cant feed there dragon, or cant take it to the vets, im left with sodding vet bills, and the costs of helping them..

so, my view is this... REPTILES are not pets, so stop buying them if people CAN NOT take the time, or make the effort..
as for fluffy things, im the same, cant afford it, dont bleeding have it..
its terrible that people see a baby corn, and go, oh bless.. OH BLESS!!.. what!!??.. its a snake, a reptile, a species that you have never read about, but its 2 oh wow, how cute".. get a life!..

dont buy one cus its nice, buy it cus you want to learn, understand it, if you have done your resaearch, and you actaully have a "love" for a species then fine, but having one to show off, to bragg about, to want to breed to make a few ££ is not what REPTILEs is about..

( am i going off topic here?!)...lol

anyway, its like most things, impulse buying, cover all the ares, make sure you knwo what is required from the animal, and you as an owner...

rant over..
making cup of tea...

anyone else for tea?....lol


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## Gerry4292 (Apr 25, 2008)

Whilst i can understand the ops point he is making,
I have to say that there are ways around these problems.
Even on a low income,its called insurance.
I pay about £200 a month out in insurance for my dogs / reps /birds of prey.Now that may seem alot to some people,but to me its worth it.
They are all covered by top level insurance,if I couldn't afford that much i would lower the type of insurance cover to one i could afford.
Even if that meant just basic emergency cover.Anything is better than nothing.Imo.
Gerry.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

tomsdragons said:


> this is my point...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


MAN id LOVE a cuppa


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## tomsdragons (Dec 23, 2007)

sugar?....lol


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## repti-mon (Aug 31, 2007)

tomsdragons said:


> anyone else for tea?....lol


Tea would be lovely thomas thankyou ever so much for offering, i'm so parched i've a mouth like ghandi's flipflop


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I dont agree, if an animal needed treatment and I had no money til the next week, then I would be borrowing to treat it, there is absolutely no excuse for not taking an animal to the vet that needs to go, its cruelty.


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## tomsdragons (Dec 23, 2007)

lol.... tea all round them...
il go put the kettle on, sugar repi-mon?..

isnt it nice when everyone gets on...lol


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## Gerry4292 (Apr 25, 2008)

anyone else for tea?....lol[/quote]

No sugar in mine thanks,any chance of some bickys/cake to go with it.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Meko said:


> and that is in response to what? who mentioned my happiness?
> 
> 
> 
> you can piss off if you think i've got the time or inclination to read your ramblings just to try and justify yourself to yourself.


 
then dont question me... YOU questioned me.. YOU invited a response is that too difficult for you to accept or understand.. nice how when others are putting across the same view as myself about it being legal and moral to treat sick animals,now youre calming down.. or did you think EVERYONE would agree with you meko....

seems now i have a genuine arguement against YOUR ramblings babe ... you cant quite cope with answering back.. but hey thats what happens when youre arguementative like you and I Meko.. once the other side has given several valid points it stops being an arguement and starts being a debate...

so lets keep it simple..

you dont have the cash then dont have the animals..
legally and morally it is your responsibility to care for them .. if they are sick OR well

there was that simple enough chicken.. and I am not the only one on this thread stating that..

there are various viewpoints on this thread.. just because ours differ does not make you a bad keeper or person... so dont take it personally just consider both sides..

: victory:


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

SiUK said:


> I dont agree, if an animal needed treatment and I had no money til the next week, then I would be borrowing to treat it, there is absolutely no excuse for not taking an animal to the vet that needs to go, its cruelty.


 
watch out Mekos about...

you do know that


:devil:

In all seriousness I agree..

Iam just glad there are both viewpoints on this thread..

I am sick of saying poor you to people who say they cant even afford basic vet treatment.. what is it with that type of sub-culture in animal keeping


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

tomsdragons said:


> sugar?....lol


i will have 33 sugars today..

since i am am obviously not sweet enough in this thread

:blush:

edited to add i have JUST bought

self raising flour.. sugar... marg... eggs and fairy cake cases..

i have loads of stuff for my daughters birthday party SOOOO

I can do the cakes..

I even have one of those pretty cake stands that holds allthe fairy cakes once baked

anyone for pretty ickle cakes???

and a group hug


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## repti-mon (Aug 31, 2007)

2 sugars and about 4mm of milk to be precise! Any more or less and i shall refuse your golden blend sir!


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

hmm right.. 

heres the cakes..

can we all be friends now..

meko u can have first dibs on the cakes..


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## Gerry4292 (Apr 25, 2008)

Any more or less and i shall refuse your golden blend sir![/quote]


Isn't that coffee,i thought he was making tea,oh well just as long as i can have cake and bickys.


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## tomsdragons (Dec 23, 2007)

haha.. measured to perfection sir... 

il have a cake with mine thanks sparkle...lol


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

tomsdragons said:


> haha.. measured to perfection sir...
> 
> il have a cake with mine thanks sparkle...lol


 
well you will need to go after Meko... I have offered him first dibs..as a peace offering.. I do love Mr grumpy pants really

but see above for the cakes on offer,

its either that or chocolate gateux

noma noma


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## repti-mon (Aug 31, 2007)

Gerry4292 said:


> Any more or less and i shall refuse your golden blend sir!


 
Isn't that coffee,i thought he was making tea,oh well just as long as i can have cake and bickys.[/quote]

The colour of my tea is golden gerrington as is the colour of my wee but i shall not be partaking in drinking that!! 

Did you know in Poland they drink tea with no milk!?!?!?...Savages...


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

repti-mon said:


> Isn't that coffee,i thought he was making tea,oh well just as long as i can have cake and bickys.


The colour of my tea is golden gerrington as is the colour of my wee but i shall not be partaking in drinking that!! 

Did you know in Poland they drink tea with no milk!?!?!?...Savages...[/quote]


just noticed you have bengals..

:flrt:

sorry totally off topic..

I have a cross bengal hes nuts...


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## repti-mon (Aug 31, 2007)

sparkle said:


> just noticed you have bengals..
> 
> :flrt:
> 
> ...


The topic of tea and cakes or not paying for vet bills? :lol2:

Yeah I have two of the scamps! the younger one was the one with the accident on wednesday and now looks very amusing with his collar and bright green bandage! 
Thing is there so lively they just dont know when to stop hahaha! Got a new MASSIVE cat tree coming next week cos they broke the other one :lol2:


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

repti-mon said:


> The topic of tea and cakes or not paying for vet bills? :lol2:
> 
> Yeah I have two of the scamps! the younger one was the one with the accident on wednesday and now looks very amusing with his collar and bright green bandage!
> Thing is there so lively they just dont know when to stop hahaha! Got a new MASSIVE cat tree coming next week cos they broke the other one :lol2:


 
i adore bengals.. noisy, crazy, loving and intelligent

the perfect pet !!!


hope your wee one gets better soon

xxx


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

sparkle said:


> well you will need to go after Meko... I have offered him first dibs..as a peace offering.. I do love Mr grumpy pants really
> 
> but see above for the cakes on offer,
> 
> ...


 
i'll have the top one.

you're ok yourself, you just type far too much for me to be bothered reading sometimes :whistling2:


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Meko said:


> i'll have the top one.
> 
> you're ok yourself, you just type far too much for me to be bothered reading sometimes :whistling2:


thats my tactic.. hehe

it works eh

:flrt:


god i love a man that argues back with me

you can have the top one my darling... always


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

sparkle said:


> then dont question me... YOU questioned me.. YOU invited a response is that too difficult for you to accept or understand.. nice how when others are putting across the same view as myself about it being legal and moral to treat sick animals,now youre calming down.. or did you think EVERYONE would agree with you meko....
> 
> seems now i have a genuine arguement against YOUR ramblings babe ... you cant quite cope with answering back.. but hey thats what happens when youre arguementative like you and I Meko.. once the other side has given several valid points it stops being an arguement and starts being a debate...
> 
> ...


our opinions didn't differ.. you just edited your post after i replied to a part of it and then went off on one.. :Na_Na_Na_Na:
My response was that you don't always buy something without not having the money and can't be expected to get shut just because you've hit the shits and lost your job. Therefore you the 'don't deserve to own an animal' isn't a fair comment. People shouldn't be *buying* animals if they don't have the money to care for them but nobody knows whats going to happen x years down the line.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Meko said:


> our opinions didn't differ.. you just edited your post after i replied to a part of it and then went off on one.. :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> My response was that you don't always buy something without not having the money and can't be expected to get shut just because you've hit the shits and lost your job. Therefore you the 'don't deserve to own an animal' isn't a fair comment. People shouldn't be *buying* animals if they don't have the money to care for them but nobody knows whats going to happen x years down the line.


 
of course things change i have been subject to that therefore i rehomed someanimals to make 100% sure i had extra cash for vet bills for the remaining ones..

a water dragon and 2 snakes went to my ex.. and i sold a female beardie..

that means now the ones i have can 100% get the extra money in their vet bill pot  

and bear in mind the word deserve will conjur up differing repsonses from differen people... well it depends on the semantics of it.. and how words make you FEEL...

it can either be emotive or not and since i realised this was an emotional subject i changed the wording so as NOT to cause upset...

oh how wrong can one girl be

:lol2:


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## luke123 (Apr 13, 2008)

Lucifus said:


> Ok im not one for making these sorts of posts and coming from me this may seem ironic but....grow up people.
> 
> Im sick to death of people saying "If you cant afford to take your animal to the vets you dont *deserve *to keep animals". While keeping an animal in long term suffering is sickening the behaviour of some keepers is absolutely deplorable. Some people cant afford to take their animals to the vets in a moments notice. If one of my animals became sick it would have to wait till next week to be treated. However in simular threads some people of what i can only describe as overly concerned busy bodys riding a rather verticle horse telling others that just because they cant get an animal to a vet in a drop of a hat they shouldnt own them at all. Sometimes times are hard, there have been times over the past year where my animals have been living lives of luxary and ive had to go days without food. Myself and others care for their animals deeply and insulting someone whos already under massive amounts of stress and distraught that they shouldnt keep animals is truely unforgivable and sickening. Especially when its a *13 year old boy!* Some people may have had lives of luxary and fed with a silver spoons as a baby but some of us havent. When i was 12 i got £5 a week pocket money which i used to buy books, most poket money now is £10 a week and sometimes the parents can barely afford that. Yes animal health is a big concern but getting upity because you can afford vets bills, nice house and countless reptiles when the target is a 13 year old boy with a leopard gecko that was kept poorly in a store is deplorable and you should be ashamed of yourself.
> 
> /rant over/


 presuming this is to me. im 12. what does that have to do with anything? i get a fiveer a week, i save it, put away £2.50 a week. i have £100 now saved up so if anything happens its there...i dont get £10...and i personally think what i said was right, he wouldnt even buy a stat for his heat mat which is on of the reasons why his leo is ill.


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

sparkle said:


> Iam just glad there are both viewpoints on this thread..
> 
> I am sick of saying poor you to people who say they cant even afford basic vet treatment.. what is it with that type of sub-culture in animal keeping





sparkle said:


> there are various viewpoints on this thread.. just because ours differ does not make you a bad keeper or person... so dont take it personally just consider both sides..
> 
> : victory:


If you cant afford it full stop then animals shouldn't be bought i agree, however sometimes things do get hard. I wouldn't buy an animal if i said " i want it but if it gets ill i cant take it to the vets" as thats irresponsible. 


90% of the time i could take it to the vets, however its the 10% that i do worry about. However the level of care i give my animals makes sure that they never need to go to the vets. *touch wood*

There are both viewpoints and i do see the validity of both sides, however it really does get on my nerves where people have to state anything that is not constructive and in the short term only makes the person saying it feel superior. "Oh look at that silly man, cant even take his pets to the vet at the drop of a hat he doesn't deserve to keep them". Lets face it if someone said that to you in person im willing to bet you'd throw a few stern words towards them at the very least.

Again its not the viewpoint that annoys me the most, although it does annoy me, people are allowed their own views. However its the need to say it to someone already in distress that worry's me.

Oh and as people keep pointing out as they havent even bothered read my previous posts but still feel the need to have a go. There is a difference between "may need a vet", "will need a vet soon" and "If its not seen tomorow its dead". The last one being something if it ever happend and i let the animal die, in extremly minor terms id hate myself for it.




sparkle said:


> and bear in mind the word deserve will conjur up differing repsonses from differen people... well it depends on the semantics of it.. and how words make you FEEL...


I did a year of language study in psychology....how the hell did i forget that. :lol2:


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

licifus..

noone said look at the silly man on that thread.

frankly his attitude isnt silly its dangerous..

he wont buy stats for his animals.. and is a really difficult forumite to deal with... he refuses help and advice then comes on week later
saying OH MY GOD my animals dying..

that type of person i can only take so much of whether they are 13 or 30

alos its worth noting for future reference.. MAY need a vet is exactly the time to take a reptile... once its obvious its usually been going on for months.. any herp vet will tell you that.. reptiles do not display sickness immediately in an obviuos way very often

reptiles CANT cry.. so if they LOOK off or act oddly thats when to take them, not wait till its not saveable...


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

sparkle said:


> licifus..
> 
> noone said look at the silly man on that thread.
> 
> ...


Im not just talking about that case, im talking about the trend. And the quotations is paraphrasing not actually quoting anyone. :blush:

If he keeps buying animals and they keep dieing hes probably going to keep getting them anyway until his parents take a stand. Only difference is he may start doing it off the forums which is a shame as we can only pray that he actually gains some sense at some point through constant reminding. Although people could start try starting talking him out of getting any new animals but im sure thats been done before.

I can see where your coming from in that case and agree 100%


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

Personally i think you shouldn't really get a pet if you honestly know you can't afford any vets bills. Obviously for the most part animals won't need to go to vets at all, if only once or twice for worming and the works when you get them. But still i think people shouldn't take the risk, if when your pet got sick you know you couldn't afford treatment for them( especially reps since it seems those free vets or trhe RSPCA wont help them) you thought re-think getting one. After all you have a duty of care, it's like you wouldn't adopt a child if you knew you couldn't afford to feed it everyday or if it any clothes etc.


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

ill be taking my girl freinds cat to be nuted on monday, im not grumbling about it, and its an automatic response. how ever, if one of my amphibians started to show signs of discomfort, theres no way id take it to the vets.

No.1 - i study my animals natural habitat as much as i can, so when i encounter irrational behaviour, i take a look at the envrioment to see if there are any visible problems.

No.2 - i keep my animals on stats, and the ones that i dont simply dont require stats, in any case they are all hooked up to thermometers.

No.3 - i keep my animals as clean as i can, i rarely ever buy WC, and so i try to reduce the chances of hostile internal parasites. quarantining as well.

No.4 - i research captive husbandry measures as well as their wild habitat, my philosophy is 'prevention is better than the cure'

No.5 - if the animal does have an external wound, judging by how severe the damage is (and let me say unless my animals literally throw them selves from one side of the tank to the other theres no way they can break any bones or rip off limbs as they are all terrestrial) i treat it with tamodine.

No.6 as long as i have cottoned on to the situation soon enough, id attempt to treat an internal parasite my self using Beaphar medicines and the guidance of my freind whos kept all manner of herps for years.

No.7 - i simply dont have any faith in vets when amphibians are concerned, to my knowledge theres practically very little known in the vet industry about amphibian anatomy and so id feel it would be a waste of money. this isnt a dig at vets, its just my opinion. its only in the past 30 years or so that weve actually started keeping herps as a REAL hobby.

for instance, a certain person who will remain nameless took his animal to the vets as it had a skin complaint, they gave him vetasept pov/iodine a/so 25 ml. basically tamodine, now for the novice herper thats the correct thing to do, but for some one like me, i would have already tried that, thus eliminating the need for a ?possibly? exspensive trip to the vet.

its well and all saying if your not prepared to take your animal to the vet then you shouldnt be allowed to keep them but if you have experiance and have done alot of indepth study into an animals natural history and what exisiting anatomical studies there are, all but the most major problems i.e chitrid fungus, can be sorted out at home SO LONG AS YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING AND HAVE THE SUPERVISION OF AN APPROPRIATELY EXPERIANCED HERP KEEPER. just a few caps locks so the kids dont think im saying the vets are usless.

flame me all you like for this comment i dont care, ive stuck by it for a while now, and im doing quite well, if needs must, then ill resort to a vet, but id rather apply my own experiance to the situation first.


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