# Squiggle's, aph, is poorly!



## secuner (Feb 2, 2008)

i got a pair of aph of emmipez1989? on may 8th. since then squiggle's & mitch have been living happily in their new 5ft home. they were cleaned out every day & feed (the same food i was recommended)& watered. 
i was really getting attached to squiggles cause she'd come & say hi & let me stroke her. but suddenly, i noticed this morning that there was blood in their bedding, i checked each of them & it was squiggles', she was pissing blood.
of course, i took them out & started a thorough clean of the viv while their staying in the bath tub. tomorrow i'll be taking her to the vets in shifnal. 
i really hope its something easily fixed with antibiotics or something.


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## lovin'life (Apr 7, 2010)

Blimey that sounds scary :gasp: Have you tried asking on the pygmy hog forum? They might be able to help give you some advice until she gets to a vet tomorrow.

Pygmy Hogs UK - African Pygmy Hedgehog Forum

Good luck for tomorrow hope she is ok.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Are you sure its wee????

I presume they are opposite sex aphs so could it be possible that she had babies and destroyed them??????


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

selina20 said:


> Are you sure its wee????
> 
> I presume they are opposite sex aphs so could it be possible that she had babies and destroyed them??????


 

Thats what I was thinking


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

secuner said:


> squiggle's & mitch have been living happily in their new 5ft home.


You have two APH which are highly solitary animals in a single house and you wonder why there is blood? I am surprised one isnt dead after over a month in those conditions!

The thread selling them clearly states they are in separate enclosures. If I was Emmipez I'd be on my way to demand them back right about now.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Kare said:


> You have two APH which are highly solitary animals in a single house and you wonder why there is blood? I am surprised they are still both alive after over a month!
> 
> The thread selling them clearly states they are in separate enclosures.


So how do u breed them if they cannot come in contact with each other


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

selina20 said:


> So how do u breed them if they cannot come in contact with each other


I have never bred, I am just a beginer to the species, but you introduce them for short periods, a few days, possibly repeated more than once, advice says in the males home. Not leave them together for nearly two months. She will easily kill him once pregnant and the urge to breed completely gone, or him her. Pregnancy lasting 30-40 days both will kill the babies if continued to be left together.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Kare said:


> You introduce them for short periods, a few days, repeated a few times in the males home, not leave them together for nearly two months.


Lol have u ever tried breeding because this rarely happens.

Most breeders leave them together for a while.


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## lil_jo84 (Sep 6, 2008)

selina20 said:


> Lol have u ever tried breeding because this rarely happens.
> 
> Most breeders leave them together for a while.


Have you bred like this? All the recommendations for breeding suggest putting the two together for short periods then parting them and then doing a second introduction after a few days. All good care guides say not to let a mating period go on for longer than 7 days before returning them to their own enclosure.

I for one know how simple it is for a hog to get pregnant after I let my sister babysit mine for a week, she let them meet once and that was enough... I had all the stress of waiting to see if Tills wsa pregnant and then all the worry that something might have gone wrong while she was nursing them


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

When I bred my litter I put the female in with the male for a short while over a couple of days then when I was sure they wernt going to fight I left them together for a week but kept a close eye on them just in case


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

selina20 said:


> Most breeders leave them together for a while.


A while? what like close to TWICE the gestation period?

This guy wasn't putting them together just to breed, he was permanently co-habiting them, and hoping they pop out babies. 

In my opinion if this is an example of his knowledge of the species he shouldn't be putting them together at all, even for 30 seconds. He is lacking anything even close the the knowledge hoglets would deserve for their breeders to possess.


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

first and foremost separate them ASAP 

are they male and female and are they littermates? How old are they?

IF they are male and female then they have probably mated and had babies which have been eaten hence all the blood or if she is young she might have had a problem so please check her undercarriage for any form of prolapse.

Secondly - definately get her to a vet as soon as you can - if they are young hedgies and she has had a litter then she could be hurt. If its urinary bloody then it could be an infection and needs treating quickly with antibiotics or worst case scenario could be uterine cancer


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## angeldog (Mar 12, 2006)

can anyone point me to anywhere that it says to keep males and females together
i for one am sick to death of seeing this sort of thing on forums, its ridiculous, why dont people bloody research before buying something.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

They are this pair, sold as a breeding pair.
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/domestic-exotics-classifieds/484232-2-aph-breeding-pair.html


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## secuner (Feb 2, 2008)

i didn't realise that they Had to be separate, thought it was just prefered that way like snakes, especially as they seem to get on great together. all my animals are observed every night cause they live right next to me in my bedroom. 
it would be easy enough to split the viv in 2 as its so large. my only experience with aph's was at college where 2 were kept in a small cage, i thought at least im giving them loads of room, they even come out to play in their ball sometimes. 
the blood is definatly coming from the wee cause when i put them on newspaper there was also the yellow of urine aswell.
i looked this up of the hog forums & heard of other cases where it was uterine infections in hogs around squiggles age, that it was quite common & they had to be spayed. 
& also that i believe that when you keep males & females together the males hassle the females less, their less stressed to breed in the moment their together, & get used to being together to the point where their used to each others presence. i do know that in the time they've been together with me, the male has become more relaxed with squiggle's & ceased hassling her, they always sleep together even though there are plenty of places to sleep separate.


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

Kare said:


> They are this pair, sold as a breeding pair.
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/domestic-exotics-classifieds/484232-2-aph-breeding-pair.html


 
Sold with seperate enclosures, wich is how they should of stayed


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

secuner said:


> i didn't realise that they Had to be separate, thought it was just prefered that way like snakes, especially as they seem to get on great together. all my animals are observed every night cause they live right next to me in my bedroom.
> it would be easy enough to split the viv in 2 as its so large. my only experience with aph's was at college where 2 were kept in a small cage, i thought at least im giving them loads of room, they even come out to play in their ball sometimes.
> the blood is definatly coming from the wee cause when i put them on newspaper there was also the yellow of urine aswell.
> i looked this up of the hog forums & heard of other cases where it was uterine infections in hogs around squiggles age, that it was quite common & they had to be spayed.
> & also that i believe that when you keep males & females together the males hassle the females less, their less stressed to breed in the moment their together, & get used to being together to the point where their used to each others presence. i do know that in the time they've been together with me, the male has become more relaxed with squiggle's & ceased hassling her, they always sleep together even though there are plenty of places to sleep separate.


 
How long have they been together and have you ever had babies from them? I have never read anything about it being ok to keep a breeding pair together full time. How can you ever hope to get a litter if they are always kept together as you wouldnt know if she was pregnant or just fat and if any hoglets were born the litter would be destroyed


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## secuner (Feb 2, 2008)

my setup was flawed when it came to breeding cause of difficulty getting to the bed area. but if you geniunely think it would be best to separate them then i will. i can just put a board in the middle of the viv, i only kept them together cause that way they could best make use of the space available, separate & they will have less space. 
i just checked on them both, & have suspicisions on the cause of the blood. i spotted 2 masses in fresh patches of blood & on closer inspection suspect miscarriage. 
she is still going to the vet in the morning & will ask the vet on his opinions on both matters.


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## dexnos (Mar 10, 2008)

Glad to hear you are going to separate them , but this is another good example of people needing to do months and I mean months of research before getting any animal let alone exotic pets.

Please do not wait until the morning to get her to the vets by doing so her life could be put at risk. She needs to be seen asap like now


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## panther_87k (Feb 4, 2009)

the current viv is 5ft? if so putting a board across the middle would give them less than the minimum 3ft they require. you will need to get a second viv or a zoozone2 indoor rabbit cage. or as they were sold with set ups you could use what they were originally sold with as they sounded perfectly suitable in the ad


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

secuner said:


> my setup was flawed when it came to breeding cause of difficulty getting to the bed area. but if you geniunely think it would be best to separate them then i will. i can just put a board in the middle of the viv, i only kept them together cause that way they could best make use of the space available, separate & they will have less space.
> i just checked on them both, & have suspicisions on the cause of the blood. i spotted 2 masses in fresh patches of blood & on closer inspection suspect miscarriage.
> she is still going to the vet in the morning & will ask the vet on his opinions on both matters.


definately 100% separate them - aph are solitary animals who only come together to breed and even that should be carefully monitored to prevent injury.

yes ok they may settle down together and the male may not pester her as much but he will still pester her from time to time - you wont know when breedings will have taken place, you wont know how long her gestation period is because you wont know from which day to count from, the male cannot be present in the cage when she gives birth as either she will destroy the babies to protect them from dad or he will destroy them to get them out of the way to re mate with mum - in any instance its not good and this is probably what has happened. You have been given the wrong info by the previous owner if that is what they have told you is ok to do and unfortunately you have risked your female.

Reducing a 5ft cage will not be enough room neither as someone has previously said.

You will definately need to get her vet checked and urinating blood really isnt a good sign - I do hope she is ok - IF it is just an infection that has caused her to urinate blood and the vet clears her for breeding - you MUST rest her for 6 months now so MUST be separated from your male to ensure this - I would suggest though depending on the cause of all of this that it may be a good idea to retire her as she may well have further complications.

Keep us posted as to what the vet diagnoses please.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

animal addict said:


> You have been given the wrong info by the previous owner if that is what they have told you is ok to do and unfortunately you have risked your female.


I doesn't appear the seller gave the wrong information. The thread selling them clearly states they are in separate enclosures.



sophs87 said:


> Sold with seperate enclosures, wich is how they should of stayed


Yeah that what I said earlier in the thread.

I wish the best of luck to that poor little hog. I do hope the OP listens to AA and the necessary resting time (if she ever gets to breed again) is used as an opportunity to read everything he should have read before buying them. I really hope he doesn't just run out and get another female and try again.


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## secuner (Feb 2, 2008)

just got back from the vets, she said squiggles will be fine & it was just a miscarriage but gave me some antibiotics to inject in her just in case. 
the vet in shifnals realy good, i took the 2 hedgehogs, 2 dormice, & 3 geckos in 1 appointment & including check up treatment/ medications for all of them it came to £44.
im not actually looking to breed them yet, but im sure once i know how to identify the indicators of pregnancy, they should be fine together, when i notice squiggels is pregnant, i could then take the male out, cause squiggels is checked every night. 
the vet say's that so long as they have plenty of space, loads of hiding areas & mitch doesn't continously hassle squiggles, then they should be alright, in the wild, although they travel miles to find a mate they have been known to stay together in groups of 2 or 3.


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

you do realise that aph do not show signs of pregnancy til very end stages and even then she might now show at all? What are you going to do then? How can you ensure your female is going to get 6months rest now - shes just had a MISCARRIAGE!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you realise you are putting your female hedgie at risk ?? Please be more responsibl than this!!! You might have been ok with 2 females sharing a big space but you annot have a male and female - they were bred as domesticated pets also so never have been wild and even if they had been wild - in the wild they have ALOT more space avilable to them than a 5ft cage!!!!!!!!

You need to separate them boh NOW!!!!! If you care an inch about your animals you will allow her to have the rest that she desperatly needs!! Her body needs to recupperate!!!


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## pgag_1_york (Mar 12, 2008)

you would do well in re reading the advice you have already been given and following it!!!!!!

they need to be kept separate from now on, they will not be fine been kept together, you do know the females are induced ovulators?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Speechless :gasp:


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

secuner said:


> the vet say's that so long as they have plenty of space, loads of hiding areas & mitch doesn't continously hassle squiggles, then they should be alright, in the wild, although they travel miles to find a mate they have been known to stay together in groups of 2 or 3.


your vet says in the wild they stay together? What utter "hedgehog litter box contents". There is no such thing as in the wild for the APH it is a completely captive bred only species.

Do follow the advice here or your actions WILL result in her death. She deserves better than that, you say she has shown really affection to you.


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## Mirf (May 22, 2008)

secuner said:


> ........ it was just a miscarriage........


Oh well, that's alright then. It's not like it was anything serious.....:bash::bash:


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## JessyH (Sep 26, 2008)

this really makes me sick, she's JUST had a MISCARRIAGE and you're willing to put her health at risk just because you can't be arsed to sort out another cage for her?

that's absolutely sickening that you're willing to put her through that stress. I do really pray for the little girl.


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

ahhh I have just noticed Kare posed the link to the original ad and have just read it - do you realise your hedgie is coming up to retirement age also? She should have her last litter by 2.5yrs old so because shes had this issue now she should be rested which will take you over that so unfortunately you need to retire her now


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## Mirf (May 22, 2008)

animal addict said:


> ahhh I have just noticed Kare posed the link to the original ad and have just read it - do you realise your hedgie is coming up to retirement age also? She should have her last litter by 2.5yrs old so because shes had this issue now she should be rested which will take you over that so unfortunately you need to retire her now


Wonder how long before she puts her up for sale...........


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## angeldog (Mar 12, 2006)

FFS you need to get another vet cos that one is clearly pissed or never passed any exams. for god sake listen to what people are telling you.
get that female seperated now!!!

The female is almost retiring age now and because of your lack of knowledge you have wasted the opportunity to have a litter from her. she now needs 6 months rest before another litter by which time shes too old.
under no circumstances can males and females live together, yeah he will stop hassling her, because shes pregnant!!!!!!
thanks god shes now to old is all i can say


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## Nix (Jan 23, 2008)

:bash: Some people. Basic common sense (even if you know nothing about APH's) says female has miscarried let her recover! Recovery means low stress IE no other animals!


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## Pinkchi (Nov 23, 2009)

This is just ridiculous!

Why the hell would you even buy 2 hedgehogs without first researching the type of care they will need?!

And not even listening to the advice given is very clever!

You are going to end up killing that poor hedgie if you do not separate them. If you cannot be bothered to house her properly away from the male then do the best you can for her and rehome her to somebody who will give a monkeys about her as you clearly do not.

She deserves so much better than your severe lack of an attempt to step up and be a proper hedgehog owner.


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## lovin'life (Apr 7, 2010)

WTF ! Your vet is a idiot and so are you if you do not seperate that poor lil hedgie away from the male. She is almost retirement age now anyway so you shouldnt breed from her you could end up killing her. If you do not want her because you want to breed please let us know and i am sure one of us will happily give her a safe pet home for the rest of her life.

Please, Please do the right thing by your hedgie.


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## RazzyRampage (May 30, 2010)

Btw.
You were all right.. this hedgehog is now up for rehoming  
Shock horror.


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## talanie506 (Nov 24, 2009)

i think a lot of people get these hogs because they genuinely like animals and think they can do a good job of breeding healthy hogs.
i will admit now that i did.
i got a little boy and fully intended to get him a wife and start breeding as soon as i found a suitable girl. 
ive now had Ted for nearly a year and i have completely changed my mind. 
with the people who've mucked me about with hogs with no certs, a trip to manchester to a false address and the fact there are so many two year old hogs all bred out and up for re-homing means that i (who considers myself to be an animal lover) realises there are already enough hogs to go round. they are not here to be made a few quid off until they prolapse and die.
Albeit Ted has a horrible demeaner and im not sure his offspring would be any more amiable, so ive made peace with the fact that i have a grumpy hog who avoids me at all costs unless i have boiled egg about my person. 
i love the grumpy little sod, and although im not sure i'd get another i will make his little life as cosy and mealworm laden as his tubbiness allows. 
these people who just stick two together and wait for the profit laden babies to arrive deserve a kick in the trousers, they are in my humble opinion not animal lovers of any kind and just bumping up their wages/dole with the suffering of something that cant help itself.

ted will remain a batchelor for the rest of his days, if life gets boring he can hump the stinky mouse cat toy or torment the cat. both hobbies seem to currently fill his diary. 

*breathe* 

rant over.


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## bampoisongirl (Mar 28, 2008)

These are my friends hedgehogs and I suggest the OP returns them if she cannot care for them!!!! Im speechless!


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## RazzyRampage (May 30, 2010)

Oh god :/
Why does the OP have them?
x


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## bampoisongirl (Mar 28, 2008)

Emma has offered to take her back on the rehoming thread. Whether the OP will return her or not I don't know. Lets hope she does the right thing and returns Squiggles


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## emmipez1989 (Jun 5, 2008)

Oh my god, i sold these to you because i was assured you knew how to keep them. im absolutly gobsmacked. Send me your postcode again and i will be there to pick them up. 
What about Mitch? is he ok? i would also be wanting to take him back too. i have got suitable set ups already. 

i honestly dont know what to say. I wish i came on here more regularly.


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## bampoisongirl (Mar 28, 2008)

emmipez1989 said:


> Oh my god, i sold these to you because i was assured you knew how to keep them. im absolutly gobsmacked. Send me your postcode again and i will be there to pick them up.
> What about Mitch? is he ok? i would also be wanting to take him back too. i have got suitable set ups already.
> 
> i honestly dont know what to say. I wish i came on here more regularly.


Em if I'd spotted it earlier I would've told you straight away, you'd better pm her. Have you still got her number? xx


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## janeb (Jan 19, 2010)

i was crying when i read this soo sad poor thing


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## secuner (Feb 2, 2008)

this is all a load of BS :censor::censor::censor::devil:
i cared for both hoggies to the best of my abilities bathed them, cleaned homes, clipped toe nails, fresh food & water every day, new wheel as soon as their old one broke, separated them as soon as i realised my mistake and am now letting them go for good reasons. they have found good homes with experienced aph keepers who have homes ready. i have not expected any where near the amount i paid for them £200. 
& emmipez is saying :censor: to me saying the new owner wants her to have squiggles.


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## bampoisongirl (Mar 28, 2008)

secuner said:


> this is all a load of BS :censor::censor::censor::devil:
> i cared for both hoggies to the best of my abilities bathed them, cleaned homes, clipped toe nails, fresh food & water every day, new wheel as soon as their old one broke, separated them as soon as i realised my mistake and am now letting them go for good reasons. they have found good homes with experienced aph keepers who have homes ready. i have not expected any where near the amount i paid for them £200.
> & emmipez is saying :censor: to me saying the new owner wants her to have squiggles.


I'm sorry, but looking at the pictures you have not looked after them, unless your abilities are shockingly poor.

And don't you dare try and say Emma is lying about anything, she has no reason to lie, all she wants is her hedgehogs back safe and sound, the least you can do is that, seeing as they have been so ill-treated.


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## mythicdawn07 (Jun 18, 2009)

OMGGGGGGGGGGGG You idiot, everyone know's you dont house them together.

You house them with foxes.











Seee!!! Seee!!!



Didnt read the full thread but seems to be blown out of proportion, Also once animals leave your hands you accept the possiblity that the person you sold them too might not know a damn thing about them.

Research the person you sell them too, and research the care for what you people buy.

: victory:


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## mythicdawn07 (Jun 18, 2009)

bampoisongirl said:


> These are my friends hedgehogs and I suggest the OP returns them if she cannot care for them!!!! Im speechless!


 
Your friend sold them, thus they are this womans hedgeys.


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## bampoisongirl (Mar 28, 2008)

mythicdawn07 said:


> Your friend sold them, thus they are this womans hedgeys.


She doesn't have the right to be an owner if she treats them like that. We know you're not here to be helpful so just leave this one.


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## emmipez1989 (Jun 5, 2008)

How Dare you come on here and call me a liar. For starters you paid £150 for the pair of hogs and £10 fuel for us to drop them at your house. not £200. and second 

Originally Posted by *pammie* 
_hi
she is deffo selling me the girl on monday night. im going to go ahead and get her and if you want her you can get her from me as i think she has no intention of giving her back to you. she said she will sell me the boy to but wants £100 for him which right now i dont have. if you would like me to get him too and could pay you could send me the money and i would be glad to get him back to you too. im also going to ask col at the exotic hog rescue if he can help in anyway as i feel so sorry for both of them. let me know asap as she has given me her number and i will help if i can
pam x_



_*And to be honest, i dont mind if i dont get them back, after all i did sell them, just so long as they are not in your grubby uncapable hands*._


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## pammie (Aug 10, 2009)

right i just want to set a few things straight, i am not here to take sides just saying facts.
i went and picked the 2 hogs up today with a friend of mine who is also a very experienced keeper. i didnt know what to expect with everything i had heard and seen on here. i have mitch here, he is looking really good, took a little while to come around, was slightly huffy at first but i believe with regular handling her will be a fantastic hog. he was clean and nails were good, skin is in good condition and he seems bright and healthy though i have treated for mites as a precaution and will be taking him for a vet check up on wednesday. now he could have been cleaned up for delivery but i do believe he is fit and healthy.
my friend has taken squiggles, sorry empen i did say i could get them back to you but when u said you couldnt afford them my friend stepped in and had spent a lot of money on a new viv and accessories to take her plus i read you were allergic thats why you sold so assumed you wouldnt want them back. Squiggles looked really good from everything she has been through and being passed about a lot. she is possible slightly overweight but is really chilled out and a lovely girl i can see why people were so taken with her. again she has been treated for mites as a precaution and will be getting a check up from a vet tomorrow but all in all looked good.
i can assure everyone that both hogs are now safe and well and will get the best of everything for the rest of their lives.


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## pammie (Aug 10, 2009)

i also want to point out that i think it is quite rude to post a pm on here without at least informing me. luckily i had discussed this with the op before it was posted but if i hadnt it could have caused a lot of trouble and resulted in her keeping the hogs when all i had done is tried to help. just saying as it has quite upset me


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## emmipez1989 (Jun 5, 2008)

pammie said:


> right i just want to set a few things straight, i am not here to take sides just saying facts.
> i went and picked the 2 hogs up today with a friend of mine who is also a very experienced keeper. i didnt know what to expect with everything i had heard and seen on here. i have mitch here, he is looking really good, took a little while to come around, was slightly huffy at first but i believe with regular handling her will be a fantastic hog. he was clean and nails were good, skin is in good condition and he seems bright and healthy though i have treated for mites as a precaution and will be taking him for a vet check up on wednesday. now he could have been cleaned up for delivery but i do believe he is fit and healthy.
> my friend has taken squiggles, sorry empen i did say i could get them back to you but when u said you couldnt afford them my friend stepped in and had spent a lot of money on a new viv and accessories to take her plus i read you were allergic thats why you sold so assumed you wouldnt want them back. Squiggles looked really good from everything she has been through and being passed about a lot. she is possible slightly overweight but is really chilled out and a lovely girl i can see why people were so taken with her. again she has been treated for mites as a precaution and will be getting a check up from a vet tomorrow but all in all looked good.
> i can assure everyone that both hogs are now safe and well and will get the best of everything for the rest of their lives.


This is great, Could i have some updates periodically though? some new pics to see how they are getting along? 
Thanks for your help xx


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## emmipez1989 (Jun 5, 2008)

pammie said:


> i also want to point out that i think it is quite rude to post a pm on here without at least informing me. luckily i had discussed this with the op before it was posted but if i hadnt it could have caused a lot of trouble and resulted in her keeping the hogs when all i had done is tried to help. just saying as it has quite upset me


i apologise about that but i just wasnt going to be made out a liar by her. when its her thats in the wrong. 

But all is sorted now, i trust they are in good hands now xx


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## pammie (Aug 10, 2009)

Yeah I'll post some pics of Mitch tonight and txt my friend and ask her to send me some of squiggles too x


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## emmipez1989 (Jun 5, 2008)

Thankyou, such a lot x


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## pammie (Aug 10, 2009)

hope this pic works, heres mitch:


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## pammie (Aug 10, 2009)




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## pammie (Aug 10, 2009)




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## pammie (Aug 10, 2009)

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=144&u=14551793

heres one of squiggles too


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## emmipez1989 (Jun 5, 2008)

Thank you such a lot for taking him on, and thank your friend for me too please. he is still as adorable as ever and i hope you both get the same amount of joy i did whilst they were with me. 

i cant ever thank you enough forgiving them new safe loving homes
xxx


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## pammie (Aug 10, 2009)

just to let you know i took him for a check up at the vet today and he was given a clean bill of health x


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