# When good 50/50's go BAD!!!



## brachy fan (May 15, 2011)

Hey guys,

I recently lent out a freshley moulted Mature male C. Cyaneopubecens to someone who had a few females on the basis of a 50/50.
Here is a pic of what he looked like a few days before he got posted bearing in mind he only moulted 2 weeks prior to this.



















The person I loaned him to had then messaged me 2 months later to say that she had no joy with pairing with any of her females and asked if I wanted him back or to send him onto someone else. I asked for him back as he had been promised to a friend of ours.

This is what we got back in the post...not looking like a GBB anymore.










Was aware this was not the same T as I had sent out, he was a lot darker, more aggressive and smaller than my MM... so messaged the person in question and got a reply back saying that these guys darken up really quicky (Bull S**t) and she assured me it was my T. All this happened within 2 months...now I've had a few MM and have never come across one to change its colouration or species.

It looks more like a MM Brachy Vagans.....what do you guys think?


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## dragon's den (Oct 6, 2010)

i have kept them for years and never had one 'darken up' before. sounds rather dodgy to me.


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## kim1989 (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't know anything about spiders but that definitely looks like a completely different spider. I hope you manage to get yours back if this one is indeed not yours. It's a gorgeous looking one by the way, the one on the bottom looks very very dull. It begs the question, what have they done to it to make it look like this if it is the same spider?


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Its a completely different T. GBBs do not change in colour with age. Looks like someone is pulling a fast one


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## Artisan (Mar 27, 2011)

Wow! That is a blatent, well cheeky not to mention naughty thing to do! Do you know the person you loaned him to or was it just a loan based on good faith and trust? Its sad because it will unfortunately put you off loaning to other people in the future. Really hope you get it sorted out : victory:


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## lucozade3000 (Aug 16, 2008)

Veeery bad paint job.
Where does she live?
Maybe she didn't have any females at all and just wanted a free beautiful spider.

-J


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## fatbloke (Apr 6, 2008)

That's messed up mate u got there address I'd be banging on there front door asap hope u get it sorted


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## pcharlton (Mar 23, 2012)

omg they would be getting a visit


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

They've obviously mixed the species up, simple as that. Why they've done so is another matter but perhaps they themselves have loaned him out. That might be easy to track at some point as these are not easy to get a result from.
GBB change colour as they develop from juvenile to sub-adult. The colours become more prominent and the tiger pattern on the abdomen disappears to be covered in orange hair.
I've had about 20 of these mature on me, I have another 15 approaching maturity. There is absolutely no way they change from one tarantula into another totally different genus!


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## cheekyfastcat (Feb 11, 2010)

:gasp: OMG thats a totally different T, i would like to think its a genuine mistake on the others side but really I think someone is taking the p**s bigtime, I really hope you get your lovely lad back, please keep us all posted


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## pcharlton (Mar 23, 2012)

do you make a report if things go wrong in breeding loans the is a lot of trust involed with people you dont know


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

pcharlton said:


> do you make a report if things go wrong in breeding loans the is a lot of trust involed with people you dont know


You can do so, that's one reason why we created the breeding section in Inverts classified.


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## pcharlton (Mar 23, 2012)

also you dont know if your getting your 50% or if the resulted in slings but thats life lol


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## spidersnake (Dec 1, 2009)

pcharlton said:


> also you dont know if your getting your 50% or if the resulted in slings but thats life lol



The alleged breeder told OP the T's wouldn't pair.
I don't think a B. Vagans _would_ pair with a GBB. The breeder knows they are scamming you just by saying "The colours darken with age". Ok, so the carapace & legs darkened, why didn't the abdomen?
You have been conned as everyone has said, I would be knocking on the breeders door unless I had to travel to a foreign country. If that's the case you can always go down the legal route & get solicitors involved - at the end of the day your beautiful GBB has been switched.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

spidersnake said:


> The alleged breeder told OP the T's wouldn't pair.
> I don't think a B. Vagans _would_ pair with a GBB. The breeder knows they are scamming you just by saying "The colours darken with age". Ok, so the carapace & legs darkened, why didn't the abdomen?
> You have been conned as everyone has said, I would be knocking on the breeders door unless I had to travel to a foreign country. If that's the case you can always go down the legal route & get solicitors involved - at the end of the day your beautiful GBB has been switched.


Hang about you don't know this at all. It could very well be a genuine mistake. The op doesn't say anything about sending the person a photo of the male they received back, so it could well be they have translated her description of her male wrong? May they send out a whole load of males back that day and mixed up addresses? so I would wait out before labeling them as something they very well may not be.

The advice of going around and knocking on their door.... well what do you do then? Shout in the street? Threaten them? Duff them up? I mean really, are you joking or do you really think a Bronson attitude will get you anywhere? Most houses I know have a door which can be closed, and a quick call to the beizzies will have you on a public order offence. Even if you state your claim to them they will see it as a civil matter and do jack poo poo. 
Internet hard nuts really need to think things through a little more.
the legal route & get solicitors involved? have fun with finding a solicitor that will take that case on especially if the culprit lives abroad. You really think they will jump at the chance to win the case of the 15 quid spider???

Honestly the best if not only sensible thing you can do is name and shame in things like the breeder reviews on here and other sites etc. (make sure your facts are right though and give plenty of chance for them to right their wrong before doing so). I know this won't get your spider back but it is a small hobby, and the more people made aware of people like this the more it stops it happening to other people.


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

spidersnake said:


> If that's the case you can always go down the legal route & get solicitors involved


I just spat out my coffee!


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## brachy fan (May 15, 2011)

Thanks guys...I knew it wasn't the same spider that we got sent back. We have lots of mature males and none have ever changed colour like this. Just needed some confirmation from others just to make sure I wasn't losing my marbles LOL!!

The person in question is not a 'heavy' breeder so no chance of getting the T mixed up, she has also been questioned with regards to the colour change and aggression and still swears its the same spider. 
I am going to give her one more chance today to return my T and I will also add photo's to show her exactly what I had and what was sent.
We too thought that she may not even have any adult females and indeed just wanted a pretty T.
I am sure if she did have 3 female GBB's she would have had a sucessfull pairing after 2 months!!

I know there are a lot of good honest people out there in the hobby who I have had no trouble with before in the past with regards to 50/50's you just got to weed out the wrong 'uns. 
I won't be going down and knocking on her door, a simple name and shame will suffice to warn other people of her.

Watch this space....... :lol2:


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

tbh brachy, 2 months is not a long time and I personally wouldnt expect to see a result until 3-4 months


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## PrincessStegosaurus (May 27, 2012)

Crazy how somebody would try and pull one like that... do they think people are really so stupid?! Magical genus changing spiders! Maybe it did mate, and y'know the babies are going to turn out to be P.metallicas? :lol2:

Anyway, hope you do get him back. Failing that, why not return her a nice vicious OBT as a thank you gift? hehe.


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## Colosseum (Aug 8, 2008)

spidersnake said:


> The alleged breeder told OP the T's wouldn't pair.
> I don't think a B. Vagans _would_ pair with a GBB. The breeder knows they are scamming you just by saying "The colours darken with age". Ok, so the carapace & legs darkened, why didn't the abdomen?
> You have been conned as everyone has said, I would be knocking on the breeders door unless I had to travel to a foreign country. *If that's the case you can always go down the legal route & get solicitors involved *- at the end of the day your beautiful GBB has been switched.


Are you for real?


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## brachy fan (May 15, 2011)

Poxicator said:


> tbh brachy, 2 months is not a long time and I personally wouldnt expect to see a result until 3-4 months


 
She did allegedly have 3 females and I would have expected some result from at least one....but the breeding is not the question in hand its the fact of being a completley different MM that has been sent back to me buddy : victory:


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## pcharlton (Mar 23, 2012)

thats a mistake or some checky sod and you never know what is happening with the loan ie got heaten no sack and only had a small umber ie if its werth my while i would go to the door no problum with that


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

brachy fan said:


> She did allegedly have 3 females and I would have expected some result from at least one....but the breeding is not the question in hand its the fact of being a completley different MM that has been sent back to me buddy : victory:


point taken, I just thought I'd mention the timescale.
tbh though, I wouldnt expect a MM to survive breeding attempts with 3 females. They do like to munch the male, and perhaps that's what has happened.


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## Gar Rees (Oct 27, 2007)

brachy fan said:


> She did allegedly have 3 females and I would have expected some result from at least one....but the breeding is not the question in hand its the fact of being a completley different MM that has been sent back to me buddy : victory:



GBB's are seriously hard to successfully breed. I myself have never had a result with this species.... over 10 attempts too


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## boxofsorrows (Nov 7, 2011)

Poxicator said:


> I wouldnt expect a MM to survive breeding attempts with 3 females. They do like to munch the male, and perhaps that's what has happened.


Something that I've never thought about, but since I don't know - what is the hobby etiquette when having a loaned male if he ends up as a snack (with or without success in mating)?


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## brachy fan (May 15, 2011)

Poxicator said:


> point taken, I just thought I'd mention the timescale.
> tbh though, I wouldnt expect a MM to survive breeding attempts with 3 females. They do like to munch the male, and perhaps that's what has happened.


 
No worrries buddy :2thumb:

I'd rather her just be honest if that was the case but she is sticking to her guns to say that the spider sent is still a GBB :bash:

Tbh I truly think she never had the females to start with and probably gets a new T every few months for the bargain price of £6.50 RMSD that we pay :devil::devil::devil: 
:lol2:


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## brachy fan (May 15, 2011)

boxofsorrows said:


> Something that I've never thought about, but since I don't know - what is the hobby etiquette when having a loaned male if he ends up as a snack (with or without success in mating)?


 
Honesty fella :2thumb:


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## PrincessStegosaurus (May 27, 2012)

Can just imagine that "Oh, pants, she ate him!! ... sod it, I'll send this one instead and hope they don't notice" :lol2:


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## boxofsorrows (Nov 7, 2011)

brachy fan said:


> Honesty fella :2thumb:


What I meant was, offer to pay something for the meal, offer another T as a replacement? Or is it just "sorry mate, he got lunched" end of story?


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

boxofsorrows said:


> What I meant was, offer to pay something for the meal, offer another T as a replacement? Or is it just "sorry mate, he got lunched" end of story?


I think it's just a case of life bites mate and my female is fatter after munching on a hairy lollipop...! If there's success then you expect honesty and a bunch of slings but I don't think there is a compensatory measure for males that are slow to escape narked females that aren't "in the mood"!


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## jagos12 (Aug 4, 2008)

Whenever we are looking for a MM we agree to offer a T that we have multiples of as replacement if it gets eaten. at the moment it has been cambridgei slings as we have had a female eat someones male and they were happy. But seeing as the pair were left together mating may have occurred, the MM's owners will still get 50% of slings. I hate the thought that the owners of the MM could be left with nothing out of the deal (as we have been there). If mating doesn't happen and i don't think the female is willing i try to pass the MM on to someone else to give them the best chance.
I really hope the OP's situation can be resolved (i would be fuming personally)


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## dragon's den (Oct 6, 2010)

it is to be taken into consideration that it is a possibility for any male to be eaten while out on 50/50. ive had my loaned ones eaten and ones i have loaned from other people eaten too, what i immediately did was tell the owner. theres no need to try and throw dirt over the problem by sending out a different male, its not generally that big a concern if thats the case.
the only thing thats making it stink is the fact that she is actively explaining to you that male gbbs change colour, trying to justify why it looks like that. i havent really heard of many similar cases to this and cant quite imagine for what reason she sent you that male back. if she also had no success and he wasnt eaten either, surely would it not be good practice to keep him until such a time when he does manage to insert as opposed to being eager to send him back?


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## MrFerretman6 (Sep 1, 2011)

Unfortunately the only thing that can really govern a 50/50 breeding loan is honesty and morals. I do hope this thread does not put people off loaning out males as it is a great way of sourcing males. 

Perhaps deposits need to be put in place to enable the owner of the male to have some peace of mind that he/she is not been taken on a ride! 

I hope this gets resolved and the cause was simply a mistake, however, I doubt it was.


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## DanieIson (Sep 13, 2009)

That's terrible... hope you get it sorted out.


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## splottlands (Jul 3, 2009)

you should be able to name and shame!


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

splottlands said:


> you should be able to name and shame!


The issue there is that it becomes a he said she said type of thing where innocent parties can be wrongly accused because of disputes. It goes down as slander I think. I truly don't see that as the case here but it becomes a legal matter which forums generally don't want any part of. If you want to know who it is then PM is a great tool and I'll use this if people have issues so I can try to get facts and avoid if need be.


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## boxofsorrows (Nov 7, 2011)

MrFerretman6 said:


> Unfortunately the only thing that can really govern a 50/50 breeding loan is honesty and morals. I do hope this thread does not put people off loaning out males as it is a great way of sourcing males.


This is why I wanted to ask in this thread what the normal mutual arrangements were. I think jagos12's answer would seem very fair to most people who are breeding.


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## Embo (Jun 7, 2012)

It looks like a really bad paint job lol

Anyone else reminded of 'can I have my spider back?' by David Thorne?? :lol2:

This is a shame, though. I would be fuming. Hope you get it sorted.


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## brachy fan (May 15, 2011)

MrFerretman6 said:


> Unfortunately the only thing that can really govern a 50/50 breeding loan is honesty and morals. I do hope this thread does not put people off loaning out males as it is a great way of sourcing males.
> 
> Perhaps deposits need to be put in place to enable the owner of the male to have some peace of mind that he/she is not been taken on a ride!
> 
> I hope this gets resolved and the cause was simply a mistake, however, I doubt it was.


 
I too hope this would not put anyone off lending their males out. Its been the first time this has happened to us and we have loaned males before so have had no other worries.
It all comes down to honesty and morals at the end of the day and I will continue to lend males in future as it would be a waste not too.

Would be nice if it was a mistake but we are still being told by the person in question that it is still a GBB :devil:


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## brachy fan (May 15, 2011)

We have given the person in question a chance to rectify the situation by this evening if not then they will be named and shamed.


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## Colosseum (Aug 8, 2008)

I will do it for you if you want lol I so want to blurt it out cause I like to stir the brown stuff for fun.


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## PrincessStegosaurus (May 27, 2012)

Linked them to this thread to show public opinion on GBB's (im)possibility of colour change?


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## **louise** (Nov 10, 2010)

Bugger  Hope you can get it sorted.


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## Lopez (Dec 13, 2011)

jagos12 said:


> Whenever we are looking for a MM we agree to offer a T that we have multiples of as replacement if it gets eaten. at the moment it has been cambridgei slings as we have had a female eat someones male and they were happy. But seeing as the pair were left together mating may have occurred, the MM's owners will still get 50% of slings. I hate the thought that the owners of the MM could be left with nothing out of the deal (as we have been there). If mating doesn't happen and i don't think the female is willing i try to pass the MM on to someone else to give them the best chance.
> I really hope the OP's situation can be resolved (i would be fuming personally)


I hope you don't breed spiders from the Ornithoctoninae, you'd be dishing out more freebies than you bred :2thumb:

Like Pete, I would also be surprised if a male C.cyaneopubescens survived 3 pairings - the females can be very defensive and in every mating I have observed the male has been destroyed very quickly indeed.

Whenever you send a male out, don't expect to get him back. Anything else is a bonus


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## fatbloke (Apr 6, 2008)

Colosseum said:


> I will do it for you if you want lol I so want to blurt it out cause I like to stir the brown stuff for fun.[/QUOTE
> 
> Like stiring the Brown stuff a dude :whistling2: wrong section lol


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## brachy fan (May 15, 2011)

Colosseum said:


> I will do it for you if you want lol I so want to blurt it out cause I like to stir the brown stuff for fun.


 
Haha :lol2:

Gotta give her a chance buddy to sort it out lol


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## brachy fan (May 15, 2011)

Like Pete, I would also be surprised if a male C.cyaneopubescens survived 3 pairings - the females can be very defensive and in every mating I have observed the male has been destroyed very quickly indeed.

Whenever you send a male out, don't expect to get him back. Anything else is a bonus [/QUOTE]


Me too 100% agree that his survival chances are minimal when it concerns a number of females. The fact of the matter is that we were sent back a MM T that was clearly not a GBB and looks too much like a very old MM Brachy Vagans.
Its all about honesty and if our GBB was eaten then she should have told us straight away, we would not have had a problem with that but instead she has tried to palm us off with a T of a completley different species and blatantly lied.


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## jagos12 (Aug 4, 2008)

Lopez said:


> I hope you don't breed spiders from the Ornithoctoninae, you'd be dishing out more freebies than you bred :2thumb:
> 
> Like Pete, I would also be surprised if a male C.cyaneopubescens survived 3 pairings - the females can be very defensive and in every mating I have observed the male has been destroyed very quickly indeed.
> 
> Whenever you send a male out, don't expect to get him back. Anything else is a bonus


 
HAHA nope don't own any of those yet. but i generally borrow a MM expecting the worse but hope for the best. Although i really try to prevent munching as i feel really guilty and i think i'd be sick if i actually saw him get hit:blush: but i make sure i've got one to replace a MM before borrowing, failing that just buy it: victory:


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## Lopez (Dec 13, 2011)

> Me too 100% agree that his survival chances are minimal when it concerns a number of females. The fact of the matter is that we were sent back a MM T that was clearly not a GBB and looks too much like a very old MM Brachy Vagans.
> Its all about honesty and if our GBB was eaten then she should have told us straight away, we would not have had a problem with that but instead she has tried to palm us off with a T of a completley different species and blatantly lied.


Yes sorry, I should have pointed out that I completely agree you have been sent a different spider, and if your male had been killed I would have expected to be informed.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

brachy fan said:


> Would be nice if it was a mistake but we are still being told by the person in question that it is still a GBB :devil:


Did you arrange the 50/50 here? 

If there was a specific thread or such you could leave itrader feedback which at least will record this incident. If it seems like the user is deliberately doing this to scam, then we can classifieds ban.


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## brachy fan (May 15, 2011)

The matter has been thankfully resolved.
The person in question has found our MM GBB in the enclosure with one of her Adult females.

Thank you all for your advice guys and gals :2thumb:


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## lycanlord20 (Jul 11, 2008)

brachy fan said:


> The matter has been thankfully resolved.
> The person in question has found our MM GBB in the enclosure with one of her Adult females.
> 
> Thank you all for your advice guys and gals :2thumb:


:hmm::hmm:


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## PrincessStegosaurus (May 27, 2012)

brachy fan said:


> The matter has been thankfully resolved.
> The person in question has found our MM GBB in the enclosure with one of her Adult females.
> 
> Thank you all for your advice guys and gals :2thumb:


Wonderful  amazing what you find with a bit of prompting and looking just a little bit harder then you did already hehe


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## lycanlord20 (Jul 11, 2008)

makes you wonder if she found the T she sent you with one of her females lol


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## jagos12 (Aug 4, 2008)

This just doesn't sound right. but i hope you get your T back


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

brachy fan said:


> The matter has been thankfully resolved.
> The person in question has found our MM GBB in the enclosure with one of her Adult females.
> 
> Thank you all for your advice guys and gals :2thumb:


Sounds to me that they saw GRB threatening to remove their classifieds rights and suddenly "found" the spider


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## jagos12 (Aug 4, 2008)

I get very annoyed with these situations as it is a deal based on trust, Even the big breeders don't just forget about a MM in a females enclosure. You check to see if he is alive or a ball of remains. And you certainly don't forget a striking T such as yours.
I can't say what i would like to but i think this is the worst excuse i have heard . sorry just really hope you get him back


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

We are not going to find out who its then? I've lit my torch and sharpened my pitchfork already.


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## cheekyfastcat (Feb 11, 2010)

Graylord said:


> We are not going to find out who its then? I've lit my torch and sharpened my pitchfork already.



:roll2:


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## PrincessStegosaurus (May 27, 2012)




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## dragon's den (Oct 6, 2010)

hard to believe she found it in an enclosure with one of the females, its not the type of species that i would reccomend putting in for a co-hab. if it really is the case, then genuinely believing the spider they are packing up to send back to you (black with red abdominal setae) is the gbb they recieved previously makes me question their experience heavily. sounds very much like they realised that time was ticking until their reputation had a spanner thrown in the works. least your getting him back, although i cant see why they genuinely believed nothing would be said.


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## fatbloke (Apr 6, 2008)

Glad u got it sorted mate


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## Dubia82 (Jan 19, 2012)

Maybe showing my ignorance here, but... if she found him in with the female, is there a decent chance they may have mated? Or would that likely result in a dead male if it wasn't removed shortly after the act (like this might not).


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Dubia82, Ive mated them loads of times, infact you need to attempt mating them loads of times for any specific breeding. In the past this has meant keeping a vigil over them for multiple 4 hour periods, perhaps 3 or 4 instances of such. The male very very slowly approaches, drums and continually waits for her response, nudging ever so slowly forward. Quite often the female chases him off. This can be repeated over days, or even weeks, until the female gets him. To suggest that they can cohabitate and hide together IMO is a little wide of the truth IMO.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

the one time i managed to get a viable sac was after i put both the male and females enclosure in a three foot tank and opened them and left them to it.

he lasted a good 6 weeks before becoming a bargain bucket, but between pairings he kept well clear...in fact alot of the time he spent up in the top corners before recharging and going for it once again


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

LOL that's what I eventually did after tiring of the 4 hour stints. Gained a sac which went bad just prior to pulling (20 days).


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## Dubia82 (Jan 19, 2012)

Ah, thanks Pox... I guess this ladies description of events isn't a good one for me to learn from. 

I was thinking it must have been in there a decent amount of time for her to forget about it or lose it - in which time the chances of a mating would increase and the males chances of survival would decrease, or so I'm guessing.


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## PeterUK (Jun 21, 2008)

Dubia82 said:


> I was thinking it must have been in there a decent amount of time for her to forget about it .


I did this last saturday. I put the male in and he didnt move for 5 hours so I went to have dinner . . . and forgot about him until this afternoon. :gasp:
I did a quick scan of the tanks today and realised, opps he shouldnt be in there. So scooped him up and put him back in his own tub.
I was quite supprised to see him alive instead of a food bolas in the corner :whistling2:


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## TEENY (Jan 4, 2008)

Hahahah i only skimmed this, something told me it would 'appear' the stunts people try to pull eh ??? lol
I have been lucky i have only ever had good people to deal with when sending out my males


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