# some unusual aquatic advice



## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Hey all, I've got a large live planted community viv running. In that i have a water fall running into a false bottom. The false bottom is about 2 inches deap 2.5 feet long and 1.5 wide. I've seen it done before, but i really want some more advice, is there any fishies/aquatic animals that would live in water that is only 2 inches deap?? It feels silly having all that water and doing nothing with it. 

Any advice/info is welcome. 

jay


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## Omerov1986 (Feb 11, 2009)

not necessarily any fish, except mudskippers, but that is to small anyways, you could get some small red crabs though! they stay like 3 inches or something, provided that teh water is heated and filtered of course, but fish wise, not really

when you say comm viv though, what exactly are you talking about? can we have some pics so i cant get a better understanding and pin poin advice more accuratley.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

The water is filtered and heated, though i havnt had the water quality checked yet

I have some pictures about on here. Look for my past threads and i have one in the habitat picture section. 

The community viv is somthing i have been working on for amy years now, is heavly live planted with various broms, ferns, climers and other plants i can't remeber any more. The soil quality is maintained by a selection of tropical and normal woodlice, panchoda grubs, earthworms then i have tropical springtails to deal with any developing mould. With regard to reptiles the occupants are 4-5 green anoles (they're breading and i can't keep track any more lol), 2 asian long taild lizards (breading), 3 USA tree frogs (breading). 

Hope that helps a little.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

The fish i've noramlly see kept in there is tetras or guppies, but i feel its not really fair due to the depth so i want some more advice as i know vary little about the fishy world


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## Aquai (Feb 11, 2009)

White cloud moutain minnows, two of them, or two cherry barbs, or maybe a couple of shrimps but even then its a very small volume of water...


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## daftlassieEmma (Oct 23, 2008)

Aquai said:


> *White cloud moutain minnows, two of them, or two cherry barbs*, or maybe a couple of shrimps but even then its a very small volume of water...


no way, if you keep shoaling species you need at least six of them


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

freshwater shrimp would love it. :2thumb:
depth really doesnt matter to them.

try cherry shrimp. : victory:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Esfa said:


> freshwater shrimp would love it. :2thumb:
> depth really doesnt matter to them.
> 
> try cherry shrimp. : victory:


OK how do you keep shrimp then?? care sheet?? in fact what would you feed shrimp?? lol


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

Spikebrit said:


> OK how do you keep shrimp then?? care sheet?? in fact what would you feed shrimp?? lol


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/fish-keeping/167993-how-set-up-tank-dwarf.html

et viola.  

And for food, they eat anything! Flake, algae pellets, cucumber, etc.

but its best to supplement their diet with some specialist shrimp/crab food to help with calcium. : victory:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Esfa said:


> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/fish-keeping/167993-how-set-up-tank-dwarf.html
> 
> et viola.
> 
> ...


reading that i dont think it would work. The pump filter combo in the tank has a very powerful suction on it to get the water up to the top of the waterfall in the viv. Also, it states it need to be very good quality water, and im not sure it will be, as the water will be initially passing through the viv before it returns to the false bottom so could well pass over the bodies of frogs and lizards in the process.


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## Aquai (Feb 11, 2009)

daftlassieEmma said:


> no way, if you keep shoaling species you need at least six of them


I've kept two cherry barbs before, 1 male, 1 female in a nano tank, no problem, they even spawned


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Would guppies work in that work of environment??? As i love their tails lol


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## Aquai (Feb 11, 2009)

Yeh probably, 1 male, to 2 females if you want a mix, or just go for one sex, you wil lget young if you mix them.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Aquai said:


> Yeh probably, 1 male, to 2 females if you want a mix, or just go for one sex, you wil lget young if you mix them.


Cool, mike look into guppies then.


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## Omerov1986 (Feb 11, 2009)

im sorry but ive got to say, that these small fish, shrimp, whatever, im pretty sure that they would be seen as prey items? and the guppies wouldnt work with the fast suction, or what ever it is, you would need danios if anything, but i just think they will be seen as prey items


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Omerov1986 said:


> im sorry but ive got to say, that these small fish, shrimp, whatever, im pretty sure that they would be seen as prey items? and the guppies wouldnt work with the fast suction, or what ever it is, you would need danios if anything, but i just think they will be seen as prey items


I can't see how they would be seen as prey items, as the tanks mates, have no acces to the false bottom. The tanks mates only have acces to the waterfall and the pond the waterfall drains into. The pond then drains into the false bottom where the pumb and filter currently reside in an area of water. Even if the tank mates could acces the false bottom, they stand more chance of drowning then eating the fish equatic resident. 

What are Danios mate, remeber i have no experience with the fishy way of life.


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## Omerov1986 (Feb 11, 2009)

ok, sorry. its my lack of knowledge of this viv, these are danios, get the zebra and the leopard, they can mix fine, they are from the cyprinid minnow family, s.e. asia and grow to about an inch max, boisterous fast slim little fish that are really active and are community fish to but you will need a minimum of 4


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Omerov1986 said:


> ok, sorry. its my lack of knowledge of this viv, these are danios, get the zebra and the leopard, they can mix fine, they are from the cyprinid minnow family, s.e. asia and grow to about an inch max, boisterous fast slim little fish that are really active and are community fish to but you will need a minimum of 4


NO worries, and thanks, they look like a cool little fishy. Will start looking at care and get my water checked in a couple of weeks and then see what my local shop will sell me on the cheap (i dont do shop prices lol) as its about time i called in some favours. But at least it looks promising that this could work. 

Cheers guys


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## Omerov1986 (Feb 11, 2009)

all the best


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## gizzard (May 5, 2008)

??? is a false bottom not normally a gravel bottom with mesh over it and substrate on top? need pics of it or we cannot help. 
post a link to the pic thread.


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## Trillian (Jul 14, 2008)

gizzard said:


> ??? is a false bottom not normally a gravel bottom with mesh over it and substrate on top? need pics of it or we cannot help.
> post a link to the pic thread.


Agreed. It's hard to visualize the viv otherwise and life's too short to go searching for it. :whistling2:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Trillian said:


> Agreed. It's hard to visualize the viv otherwise and life's too short to go searching for it. :whistling2:


Well then it could be a long wait lol.

A false bottom can be created many ways, the way i've built mine leaves an open space of water, supports in the water hold up the plastic sheets on which the soil and substraite is held. there is then a small area where the end of the water fall desposits water into a pond which drains into the false bottom. 

I dont have any direct pictures of the false bottom, and as i dont have a camera i wont be taken any. If you can help from the description it is appriciated, but i've had some brillant suggestions so far, so thanks guys and girls.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

So the majority of the water volume is unlit? Beneath the supported land area?

By the way chaps, Cherry Barbs are not a shoaling species, they prefer to live in solitary or do very well in pairs


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Saedcantas said:


> So the majority of the water volume is unlit? Beneath the supported land area?
> 
> By the way chaps, Cherry Barbs are not a shoaling species, they prefer to live in solitary or do very well in pairs


Indeed mate, the side are glass and let in some light, but there isnt loads.


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

Spikebrit said:


> Indeed mate, the side are glass and let in some light, but there isnt loads.


Shrimppp! its calling for shrimp! :lol2:


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Esfa said:


> Shrimppp! its calling for shrimp! :lol2:


"Every" tank is calling for shrimp though! :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Its like The Boy Who Cried Wolf. We can never know if _this_ situation really IS calling for shrimp because you say it so often :Na_Na_Na_Na:

:lol2: I'm only kidding sweety


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

pfft! :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## daftlassieEmma (Oct 23, 2008)

AshMashMash said:


> Its like The Boy Who Cried Wolf. We can never know if _this_ situation really IS calling for shrimp because you say it so often :Na_Na_Na_Na:


this made me laugh so much :lol2:


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

daftlassieEmma said:


> this made me laugh so much :lol2:



haha it sooo true though. 

when i went to the zoo with him, we stood in front of the huge piranha tank and i went, "This tank needs shrimp!"

:blush::blush:


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## xyra (Apr 26, 2007)

it is a very small volume of water, but with so much for the water to run over which will work as a biological filter, and waterfalls providing fantastic aeration i can't see there being a problem, even if having the fish makes it slightly overstocked by traditional formula.

I would imagine that with that setup the water will get pretty acidic, so you could try something like a pair of the smaller species of apisogramma (the pebas complex for example remain pretty tiny I understand) there are many apisto species that like shallow water and will often only breed in floating tubes or very low water levels (again I think the pebas complex are like that, but i can't exactly rememeber - there was a talk on it at the last festival of fishkeeping)

If the amphibians don't have access to the water, how will you get to it to clean without striping the whole tank? Or is the false base a slide out tray? Or something else?

Don't worry to much about the strong filter, but a nice big piece of foam over the inlet and it will spread the suction over such an area it won't be an issue.


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## daftlassieEmma (Oct 23, 2008)

Esfa said:


> haha it sooo true though.
> 
> when i went to the zoo with him, we stood in front of the huge piranha tank and i went, "This tank needs shrimp!"
> 
> :blush::blush:


aww bless ya :flrt:


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## Omerov1986 (Feb 11, 2009)

xyra said:


> it is a very small volume of water, but with so much for the water to run over which will work as a biological filter, and waterfalls providing fantastic aeration i can't see there being a problem, even if having the fish makes it slightly overstocked by traditional formula.
> 
> I would imagine that with that setup the water will get pretty acidic, so you could try something like a pair of the smaller species of apisogramma (the pebas complex for example remain pretty tiny I understand) there are many apisto species that like shallow water and will often only breed in floating tubes or very low water levels (again I think the pebas complex are like that, but i can't exactly rememeber - there was a talk on it at the last festival of fishkeeping)
> 
> ...



no you cant put dwarfs in that little amount of water! they would get to stressed, their territory, isnt just base level, its a three dimensional thing, dont use any cichlids!


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## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

Can you tell us the species of 'phib?. Some are toxic, meaning no fishies. Guppies might work, but danios need a school, and need a relativley large amount of water for their size. As mentioned above, Cherry barbs are great, and can live in a pair.


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## Trillian (Jul 14, 2008)

Saedcantas said:


> By the way chaps, Cherry Barbs are not a shoaling species, they prefer to live in solitary or do very well in pairs


That may or may not be so but I think they look better in a shoal. I have two males and four females together. Lovely fish. : victory:


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## xyra (Apr 26, 2007)

Omerov1986 said:


> no you cant put dwarfs in that little amount of water! they would get to stressed, their territory, isnt just base level, its a three dimensional thing, dont use any cichlids!


Most are deeper water sp., but I do believe that some aren't. Certain species (although I cannot remember which exactly, i don't think pebas are actually on further thought) do prefer shallower water, admittedly the ones you are likely to run into in shops are not going to be shallow water species, attend a few auctions and rarer stuff will turn up.

Although not an apisto, I believe that Laetacara (a rather bulkier fish) have been collected in water of down to 10cm depth (still twice what is in this setup).

however, I am far far far from an apisto expert, so I take this all with a pinch of salt and do your own research before trying it out!

Edit: Found a reference! Although I don't know if this species has been imported (quite possibly not) it would indicate that others may be available with similar habitat needs; Apistogramma salpinction 
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1679-62252005000300003&script=sci_arttext 
"At the time of sampling it was very shallow, in some places not more than 5 cm deep" - Admittedly from reading the paper this appears to be a seasonal variation, and would indicate that the 2" water depth in this setup would be pushing at the edge of the limits.


Anyways... back on topic!

Bear in mind shallow water species will more than likely need lots of floating plant cover and rockwork caves to feel safe. Would it not be possible to go with a deeper tank and have a 3" or 4" water depth?

Another possible option would be some smaller betta species - I believe some of those like shallow water, and they love soft water.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

xyra said:


> Most are deeper water sp., but I do believe that some aren't. Certain species (although I cannot remember which exactly, i don't think pebas are actually on further thought) do prefer shallower water, admittedly the ones you are likely to run into in shops are not going to be shallow water species, attend a few auctions and rarer stuff will turn up.
> 
> Although not an apisto, I believe that Laetacara (a rather bulkier fish) have been collected in water of down to 10cm depth (still twice what is in this setup).
> 
> ...


Some very intersting points there mate and thanks, to you and the other posters. 

The way im presently draining it and doing water changes is either taken the water out at the top of the waterfall and doing 100's of small water changes. There is also a space where the waterfall trains into the false bottom foming a small pool, there i can, if im very paitent scoop water out, but then agin its only in small amounts. I've have got a sponge filter thing to put over the suction to spread out the water suction. I twoked it from my locol rep/fish shop. They owned me some favours so i got some new pipe work and stuff and this sponge which is aparently full of good life, if that means anything. Hope thats a good thing.

To the person that asked about toxins. Due to the animals involved in the viv none of them carry any toxins that could contaminate the water. 

Is the general consessious that guppies would work, as a few people have suggested, since i think they are really cute lol.

regarding plant matter, im getting some water based plants to go in there, specifically some long grasses to go at the pool end, to which the fish would have access to the bottom, root section if that makes sense? There wil also be other various hides and rosk and things in there anyway, so would i need t add any other stimulation if i added guppies or somthing simular?

Jay


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## Richcymru (Nov 21, 2008)

Have you considered any of the smaller species of betta which naturally live in small, shallow pools on the rainforest floor? These pools are natrally acidic due to the large amounts of decomposing leaf litter found in them. Many of these smaller betta are also found surviving under damp leaves during the dry season, with no pools at all (not that im suggesting you do this :lol2


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Richcymru said:


> Have you considered any of the smaller species of betta which naturally live in small, shallow pools on the rainforest floor? These pools are natrally acidic due to the large amounts of decomposing leaf litter found in them. Many of these smaller betta are also found surviving under damp leaves during the dry season, with no pools at all (not that im suggesting you do this :lol2


they sound like it would work, any info, pictures and proper scientific names, as remeber guys i know bugger all about fish. 

Also i take it thses guys still live off tropical fish flakes?


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## xyra (Apr 26, 2007)

Spikebrit said:


> Some very intersting points there mate and thanks, to you and the other posters.
> 
> The way im presently draining it and doing water changes is either taken the water out at the top of the waterfall and doing 100's of small water changes. There is also a space where the waterfall trains into the false bottom foming a small pool, there i can, if im very paitent scoop water out, but then agin its only in small amounts. I've have got a sponge filter thing to put over the suction to spread out the water suction. I twoked it from my locol rep/fish shop. They owned me some favours so i got some new pipe work and stuff and this sponge which is aparently full of good life, if that means anything. Hope thats a good thing.
> 
> ...



Guppies would be fine, betta would be lovely, but you may have problems getting more unusual species onto flake food. I'm not a betta person really, so someone else might be able to help more (Richcymru may know more?) otherwise you could try contacting the AAGB (anabantoid association of great britain) www.aagb.org

My main concern is maintenance in this area; Are you able to get poo of the bottom? What if a fish dies - can you remove it before it pollutes without stripping the whole tank? What about enrichment if you go for a more intelligent species (probably not a major issue for most the suitable species)? will you be able to remove rotten plants and clean algae?


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

xyra said:


> Guppies would be fine, betta would be lovely, but you may have problems getting more unusual species onto flake food. I'm not a betta person really, so someone else might be able to help more (Richcymru may know more?) otherwise you could try contacting the AAGB (anabantoid association of great britain) www.aagb.org
> 
> My main concern is maintenance in this area; Are you able to get poo of the bottom? What if a fish dies - can you remove it before it pollutes without stripping the whole tank? What about enrichment if you go for a more intelligent species (probably not a major issue for most the suitable species)? will you be able to remove rotten plants and clean algae?


The latter is whats worrying me, if anything dies or poops in the farest corner getting to it will be near impossibale. Is there not some sort of aquatic invert i can get to help keep the water clean, eat poop and plant matter. I have such inverts in the soil of the viv, so there much be some in the water, no?


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## 9Red (May 30, 2008)

Dwarf African Clawed Frogs?


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

I had guppies in my viv and they bred and bred and I had to give them away by the bucket full. I would just have males if you go that route.
The only thing that worries me is the water depth.
If the water isn't to warm, have you thought about water lice,they are just like woodlice only they live in water. They live on decaying matter and you can find them in most ponds and streams. You usually find them along side a little shrimp that also lives on decaying matter.
cheers arthur.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

arthur cooke said:


> I had guppies in my viv and they bred and bred and I had to give them away by the bucket full. I would just have males if you go that route.
> The only thing that worries me is the water depth.
> If the water isn't to warm, have you thought about water lice,they are just like woodlice only they live in water. They live on decaying matter and you can find them in most ponds and streams. You usually find them along side a little shrimp that also lives on decaying matter.
> cheers arthur.


That sounds interesting. Wish i could get the water depth deaper but its impssiable without risking a leak over the viv doors. 

Cheers
Jay


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Sorry, should have said water louse, so there's no misunderstanding it for fish lice.
cheers arthur


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

arthur cooke said:


> Sorry, should have said water louse, so there's no misunderstanding it for fish lice.
> cheers arthur


next step where do i get water louse from??


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

You'll find them every where, garden ponds, slow moving streams and rivers. Usually in amongst plant roots on the edge, in moving water under rocks. They carry their young about with them, so easy to see whether they are breeding, don't know if fish would eat them.
cheers arthur.


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## gizzard (May 5, 2008)

arthur cooke said:


> You'll find them every where, garden ponds, slow moving streams and rivers. Usually in amongst plant roots on the edge, in moving water under rocks. They carry their young about with them, so easy to see whether they are breeding, don't know if fish would eat them.
> cheers arthur.


i dont think they would be able to survive the temps of the water. go for bettas. how about females instead of another species? the males with their lovely fins would be too big and have to swim on their sides but the females dont have long fins but still have lovely colour and will feed off flake food.
:2thumb:


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