# venom glands...



## Jade01 (Feb 21, 2007)

just been reading the thread about venomoids and someone said about meeting a 21year old cobra who had her venom glands removed (correct me if thats not what was said) n i have always been told that if a venomous snake has its venom glands removed they would just grow back?

is that wrong or does it depend on the snake?


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## *o* (Apr 12, 2007)

I think Yes for cobra, but not sure for other venomies.
Cobra charmers remove their cobra's venom glands.
I have met cobra charmers in Tokyo once and I had an oppotunity to talk with them. They told me cobra will never produce its venom after the removing operation. They also take off the fangs of the cobra. ewww


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## Jade01 (Feb 21, 2007)

take the fangs out? how do they eat?


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## *o* (Apr 12, 2007)

lil_me said:


> take the fangs out? how do they eat?


I also saw thier feeding. Guess what?
They did force feeding snake on their cobra. No need fangs for them.

The force feeding was amazingly fast!

Obviously that way was very stressful for the cobra.
The cobra is NOT their pets, only for bussiness things. They had over 10 cobras then.


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## Jade01 (Feb 21, 2007)

so the cobra just eats other snakes?


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## shiva&kaa123 (Jul 20, 2007)

lil_me said:


> take the fangs out? how do they eat?


As long as the prey is pre-killed then it shouldn't have any affect. There are arguements that say the venom aids digestion but I don't think this has been proven...
Ben


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## *o* (Apr 12, 2007)

lil_me said:


> so the cobra just eats other snakes?


They said to me they feed only other snakes. King cobra eat other snake in the wild anyway.


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## shiva&kaa123 (Jul 20, 2007)

Their latin name '_Ophiaphagus Hannah'_ means 'snake eater' I think...
Ben


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## Jade01 (Feb 21, 2007)

oh yeah i forgot about that, thats gotta be an expensive way of feeding tho


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## *o* (Apr 12, 2007)

shiva&kaa123 said:


> Their latin name '_Ophiaphagus Hannah'_ means 'snake eater' I think...
> Ben


I have nothing with Latin language, but I think it is great naming. The King cobra is awesome creature. 

Their venom gland is taken with the fangs in India. But the fangs moult again and again. If the cobra's venom gland and the nerves have been removed off, they become non-venomies forever.

Anyway King cobra is decreasing from this planet rapidly.. That's sad, isn't it?
The King cobra don't appear in the city, they live in the quiet area in the wild. They don't attack human normaly.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

venom glands dont grow back, venom ducts do grow back very quickly in elapids, removing fangs is a bad way to make a venomoid and very ineffective, alot of snakes die when there fangs are removed I believe, plus fangs grow back. A king cobra can be made to take rats and mice I believe, I asked Al about it once and he said some can if you get them at the right time, when they are young, if my memory serves me correctly.


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## *o* (Apr 12, 2007)

yeah, I also heard the King cobra eats rodents, too, if you train them.


see the pic below

​


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

I think King Cobra's are awesome!! 

However, i think if people have them they should have the whole package and take the risk of getting bitten rather than remove their fangs and venom glands which is there only mean of defence. How do you think you would fare in a fight with no arms and no legs??

Also i believe if you get them as hatchlings they can be moved onto mice and rats, but you have to go through the process of scenting the mice live with a rat snake and then move onto scented frozen thawed and so on....

I'm not having a go at you by the way just saying what i think as a whole!:no1:


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## *o* (Apr 12, 2007)

bradhollands999 said:


> I think King Cobra's are awesome!!
> 
> However, i think if people have them they should have the whole package and take the risk of getting bitten rather than remove their fangs and venom glands which is there only mean of defence. How do you think you would fare in a fight with no arms and no legs??
> 
> ...


Their venom is kind of saliva which helps their digestion, too.
They need it like we need when we have a dinner.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

*o* said:


> Their venom is kind of saliva which helps their digestion, too.
> They need it like we need when we have a dinner.


thats actually debateable, I dont know if any king cobra spefic tests have been done but I read a paper the other day about rattlesnakes, where they proved that the venom doesnt actually have any effect on prey digestion, and seeing as king cobras venom is primarily post synaptic neurotoxins, im wondering if its the same in this case, I dont think it would play a major part anyway, because venomoid snakes still manage to eat and digest prey properly. Id be interested to know more though.


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## *o* (Apr 12, 2007)

SiUK said:


> thats actually debateable, I dont know if any king cobra spefic tests have been done but I read a paper the other day about rattlesnakes, where they proved that the venom doesnt actually have any effect on prey digestion, and seeing as king cobras venom is primarily post synaptic neurotoxins, im wondering if its the same in this case, I dont think it would play a major part anyway, because venomoid snakes still manage to eat and digest prey properly. Id be interested to know more though.




The venom apparatus reaches the highest development in snakes and is a weapon for capturing prey, *defence and a digestive aid*. The salivary secretion of the harmless snakes is equally effective against their prey species. Snake venom is highly modified saliva, and is produced by modified saliva glands. Proteins constitute the major portion of venom's dry weight–90% or more. Snake venom is a cocktail of hundreds, sometimes thousands, of different proteins and enzymes. Many of these proteins are harmless but a percentage of them are toxins. The makeup of these toxins varies widely from species to species.

Venoms are rich in hydrolithic enzymes, a complex mix of polypeptides, nucleases, peptidases, etc., which help digest the snake's prey. Some of them also enhance or contribute to the toxic effect of the venom.

I don't think cobra's venom is exceptional.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

well, i don't agree with the whole venomoid practice. to me it's just plain wrong. you can't have your cake and eat it too. i see it as simply mutilating an animal for one's selfish desires. i would never encourage this procedure, ever.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

*o* said:


> The venom apparatus reaches the highest development in snakes and is a weapon for capturing prey, *defence and a digestive aid*. The salivary secretion of the harmless snakes is equally effective against their prey species. Snake venom is highly modified saliva, and is produced by modified saliva glands. Proteins constitute the major portion of venom's dry weight–90% or more. Snake venom is a cocktail of hundreds, sometimes thousands, of different proteins and enzymes. Many of these proteins are harmless but a percentage of them are toxins. The makeup of these toxins varies widely from species to species.
> 
> Venoms are rich in hydrolithic enzymes, a complex mix of polypeptides, nucleases, peptidases, etc., which help digest the snake's prey. Some of them also enhance or contribute to the toxic effect of the venom.
> 
> I don't think cobra's venom is exceptional.


 
This is part of the study I read the other day though, thats what made me say it.

"Prey envenomation does not improve digestive performance in western diamondback rattlesnakes (Crotalus atrox) 
Marshall D. McCue * 
Department of Biological Sciences, University of Arkansas, Fayetteville, Arkansas 72701 

Abstract 
Although the toxic properties of snake venoms have been recognized throughout history, very little is known about the adaptive significance of these powerful mixtures. This study examined the popular hypothesis that prey envenomation enhances digestion by influencing the energetic costs of digestion and assimilation, gut passage time, and apparent assimilation efficiency (ASSIM) in western diamondback rattlesnakes (Crotalus atrox), a species whose venom is recognized for its comparatively high proteolytic activities. A complete randomized block design allowed repeated measures of specific dynamic action and gut passage time to be measured in eight snakes ingesting four feeding treatments (i.e., artificially envenomated live mice, artificially envenomated prekilled mice, saline injected live mice, and saline injected prekilled mice). A second experiment measured ASSIM in eight snakes ingesting a series of six artificially envenomated or six saline injected mice meals over an 8-week period. Contrary to expectations, the results of both these experiments revealed that envenomation had no significant influence on any of the measured digestive performance variables. Gut passage time averaged 6 days and ASSIM averaged 79.1%. Twenty-one hours following ingestion, postprandial metabolic rates exhibited factorial increases that averaged 3.9-fold greater than resting metabolic rate. Specific dynamic action lasted on average 88 hr and accounted for 26% of the total ingested energy. The results of this study reinforce the need to systematically examine the potential adaptive advantages that venoms confer on the snakes that produce them. J. Exp. Zool. 307A, 2007. © 2007 Wiley-Liss, Inc."
__________________


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

hmmm, that's interesting. i always believed it did help in digestion! whadda you know! i'm glad you posted that suik. it does beg me to propose something though. i wonder if it may just aid in the breakdown of tissues but not in the absorbtion of nutrients in the gut? the length of time from ingestion till fecal passage may not be affected, but the ease of digestion may. a comparison of caloric expenditure in digestion by both groups of snakes may be in order to validate the findings. ease of digestion by venom may not be well demonstated by a time line but rather in the amount of energy necessary to accomplish the task. the study is probibly correct though.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

its pretty new I think, I found it on venom doc a month or so ago, I would like to know more about it, I did wonder that, I might go and try and find some more.

Its all very scientific but this line "the energetic costs of digestion" made me think it meant breaking down the tissue of the prey, but maybe im not understanding it completely.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

not bad for a hillbilly!!:lol2::lol2:


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## *o* (Apr 12, 2007)

How about spiders, SiUK? I used to keep a gllias bird eater and a few ornamentals. Do they digest their prey with their venom? I think they chop the prey small with the fangs and melt it with the saliva(venom).


I have seen my rhinocerous viper bites a mouse and when he moving his mouth, the each parts of the surface where he bitten were wet with the snake's saliva and it was melting a bit.
I guess the digesting has already started in his mouth.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

im not entirely sure mate, although I know tarantulas liquidise their prey so they can eat it but im not sure if this is their venom that does that, I can vaguely remember a discussion about it on a tarantua forum, il look it up, I will do a bit of research to see what I can find out, id like to know more about it, maybe viperkeeper can shed some light on the scientific mumbo jumbo:lol2:


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## *o* (Apr 12, 2007)

It's good for you. Yeah, we are waiting 4 Mr.viperkeeper coming. :lol2:
He keeps all-round hots!
But not a hot girl???:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## shiva&kaa123 (Jul 20, 2007)

Thing is with this whole breaking down of tissue thing is that a king cobra (and most other elapids) use a neurotoxic venom-does very little tissue damage. Of course there are traces of heamotoxins but apart from that I can't see how it would help to digest prey...
Ben


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

If the operation is done correctly and the gland and duct are completely removed then the snake cannot produce more venom. I saw this snake bite and puncture and dig the fangs in to the owners hand (don't ask) so this is 100% definately a venomoid.

The venom is not used to break down food for help with digestion, a venomoid snake can digest it's prey and pass it through just a effectively as a live firing snake. Again, the snake in question is testament to that ... or maybe you think I'm telling porky pies?

Just reading back, the space where the gland and duct were is then filled with a surgical implant. The snake I 'met' was an albino monacled cobra NOT a King Cobra. We have 5 adult Kings at the minute, all are in tact and all are eating rodents, they haven't been trained from a young age though 

Just reading back again (lol), the fangs were in tact, there is no reason for fangs to be removed, if you think about if, snakes lose fangs while shedding all the time and they are replaced by new fangs.


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## serpentkid100 (Mar 7, 2006)

all venom is saliva that have modified enzmes, some attack the nervouse system while others attch the bodie tissues, we have saliva that does the same, if you spit on food then the amylase in our saliva will break up the foods, some are quicker than others....who said micro biology and boichemisrty is boring...: victory:


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