# dwa bitten



## smart1 (Oct 16, 2007)

id like to no if your silly enuff to keep dwa reps without a licence ,and are unlucky enuff to get tagged then get taken to hosptial. Would you be getting in trouble with the law if they find out you have no licence? if you come out alive that is .....


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

well really the NHS are there to treat everyone without questions except certain circumstances like gun shot wounds and possibly now knife wounds where they are legally obliged to inform the police, but as far as I know envenomation is not one of those situations and there has to be a certain amount of data protection, as long as they didnt that you were a danger to anyone else, I could be completely wrong though tbh


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

SiUK said:


> well really the NHS are there to treat everyone without questions except certain circumstances like gun shot wounds and possibly now knife wounds where they are legally obliged to inform the police, but as far as I know envenomation is not one of those situations and there has to be a certain amount of data protection, as long as they didnt that you were a danger to anyone else, I could be completely wrong though tbh


You are spot on!

If the hospital informed the police, they'd be contravening the data protection act and the doctor/nurse invloved would be breaking their professional code of conduct.


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## smart1 (Oct 16, 2007)

Grond said:


> You are spot on!
> 
> If the hospital informed the police, they'd be contravening the data protection act and the doctor/nurse invloved would be breaking their professional code of conduct.


would be silly to take the risk in any case .... but then people do :bash:


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

smart1 said:


> would be silly to take the risk in any case .... but then people do :bash:


People do lots of silly things!

Keeping venomous snakes is quite sensible compared to some that end up in hospital!


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## CKS (Jul 3, 2009)

SiUK said:


> well really the NHS are there to treat everyone without questions except certain circumstances like gun shot wounds and possibly now knife wounds where they are legally obliged to inform the police, but as far as I know envenomation is not one of those situations and there has to be a certain amount of data protection, as long as they didnt that you were a danger to anyone else, I could be completely wrong though tbh


Sorry to contradict you (so late after the thread started too) but your wrong. This is my area of work and although your correct to state hospitals are bound by confidentiality, they are also obliged to inform the police of anything that poses a public risk. A venomous snake bite would pose a serious enough risk for them to breach confidentiallity in the interest of public safety. If they neglected to tell the police they could be held liable for endangering public safety.... : victory:


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## CKS (Jul 3, 2009)

Grond said:


> You are spot on!
> 
> If the hospital informed the police, they'd be contravening the data protection act and the doctor/nurse invloved would be breaking their professional code of conduct.


Sorry to contradict you (so late after the thread started too) but your wrong. This is my area of work and although your correct to state hospitals are bound by confidentiality, they are also obliged to inform the police of anything that poses a public risk. A venomous snake bite would pose a serious enough risk for them to breach confidentiallity in the interest of public safety. If they neglected to tell the police they could be held liable for endangering public safety.... : victory:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

CKS said:


> Sorry to contradict you (so late after the thread started too) but your wrong. This is my area of work and although your correct to state hospitals are bound by confidentiality, they are also obliged to inform the police of anything that poses a public risk. A venomous snake bite would pose a serious enough risk for them to breach confidentiallity in the interest of public safety. If they neglected to tell the police they could be held liable for endangering public safety.... : victory:


they have only just changed the laws on stabbings though havnt they?


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

CKS said:


> Sorry to contradict you (so late after the thread started too) but your wrong. This is my area of work and although your correct to state hospitals are bound by confidentiality, they are also obliged to inform the police of anything that poses a public risk. A venomous snake bite would pose a serious enough risk for them to breach confidentiallity in the interest of public safety. If they neglected to tell the police they could be held liable for endangering public safety.... : victory:


I still disagree with you. I work in a hospital (in A&E) a lot of the time and other than gunshot wounds, and now stabbings, there is no obligation to tell the police anything. If the clinician in question thought there was a risk to public health, then they would have to make a decision based on their own judgement, but how would they know you didn't have a DWA anyway? I for one wouldn't be asking to see it before administering treatment, and most hospital staff wouldn't even be aware it existed.


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## CKS (Jul 3, 2009)

Grond said:


> I still disagree with you. I work in a hospital (in A&E) a lot of the time and other than gunshot wounds, and now stabbings, there is no obligation to tell the police anything. If the clinician in question thought there was a risk to public health, then they would have to make a decision based on their own judgement, but how would they know you didn't have a DWA anyway? I for one wouldn't be asking to see it before administering treatment, and most hospital staff wouldn't even be aware it existed.


Then your talking a different ball game .... if the staff don't know thats fair enough but it's their job to find out so they can administer anti venom .... if it comes to light that it is DWA (which a toxicology report would show) Then they have to say so anyway. The policy on stabbings is irrelevent ... your talking about a dangerous venomous reptile, Once it comes to light it needs to be tracked down and that puts a duty on the doctor to inform the police ... you wouldn't expect a doctor to keep quiet about a lion attack on a patient when there could be one roaming the streets... I work for the police i can assure you they are obliged to divulge the info


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## CKS (Jul 3, 2009)

SiUK said:


> they have only just changed the laws on stabbings though havnt they?


Policy on stabbings is irrelevant ... dangerous wild animals falls under a different act altogether ... see my other post


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## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

CKS said:


> Sorry to contradict you (so late after the thread started too) but your wrong. This is my area of work and although your correct to state hospitals are bound by confidentiality, they are also obliged to inform the police of *anything that poses a public risk*. A venomous snake bite would pose a serious enough risk for them to breach confidentiallity in the *interest of public safety*. If they neglected to tell the police they could be held liable for endangering public safety.... : victory:


Hi ,
I can understand that if the snake was still free in the public domain . However, in 99.9% of cases the keeper will place the animal back within it's secure licensed enclosure first as a priority while asking a friend or family member to contact the hospital.
Once this is done the animal poses absolutely no risk to the public or any family member .
The bite is then nothing different from any other medical emergency with only the patients well being at risk.
My priority would alway be to contain the snake first and foremost. If I then arrive at the hospital for treatment and the police or press were notified it would be the hospital breaking the law , As a licensed keeper I would've commited no crime whatsoever

Cheers,
Al


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## CKS (Jul 3, 2009)

Al Hyde said:


> Hi ,
> I can understand that if the snake was still free in the public domain . However, in 99.9% of cases the keeper will place the animal back within it's secure licensed enclosure first as a priority while asking a friend or family member to contact the hospital.
> Once this is done the animal poses absolutely no risk to the public or any family member .
> The bite is then nothing different from any other medical emergency with only the patients well being at risk.
> ...


Your absolutely right in what you say but all that needs to be found out. Patients (especially those committing a criminal offence) have a tendancy to lie if they think their in trouble. If a patient with a snake bite comes in the doctor can't take the word of the patient that he is DWA licensed, that the snake is secured, and that their aren't more unlicensed snakes roaming around. For that to be verified they need to inform the police


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## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi CKS

This just isn't true.

If a keeper is licensed and has followed all protocals there is absolutely no reason to suspect a crime has been commited. If the staff are in doubt they only need ask the the paramedics that brought the patient or family member that drove them to hospital.

There is absolutely no need to contact the police when a license can be verified via family member or a phone call to the local council.
I repeat, a venomous snake bite to a licensed keeper is not a crime and documents can easily be produced without notifying police or press.

If what you say were true the amount of times hospital staff had to contact police would be ridiculous. "Hey, there's a 70 year old woman in there with a nasty slice to her hand, say's she did it on a bread knife while washing up. Think we'd better contact the police as she may have had a scuffle with her husband while trying to stab him."

By the way, I also worked in the NHS through the 80's, my mother worked in the NHS up until her retirement a few years back,and many of our friends work within the NHS , Private health and mental health.

Cheers,
Al


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## WW** (Jan 20, 2008)

Al,

The original question referred to unlicensed keepers. 

In other words, if someone gets bitten by a venomous snake he owns without a licence, rocks up at the hospital and says "I have been bitten by venomous snake species X", and refuses to give further details, would the hospital be obliged or allowed to contact the police or other authorities to follow it up? 

If they are obliged to, then logically they would have to follow it up with licenced keepers as well, if only to check whether they have a licence.

I don't know the answers to any of these Qs myself.

Cheers,

WW


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## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Wolfgang! :¬)

Ah, thanks for that, it'll teach me to read the entire thread in future (Something that's often very hard to do in this section of the forum ):lol2:

Sorry CKS 
The main point I am trying to put across is, it is very simple to confirm whether the patient is legal or not, and it need never reach the press if all is above board.
In the case of a legal genuine keeper all this should be covered if he or she is sensible and responsible.
If I was bitten and taken to hospital and the story came out in the press i'd be peed off big time

Cheers,
Al


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## CKS (Jul 3, 2009)

Al Hyde said:


> Hi Wolfgang! :¬)
> 
> Ah, thanks for that, it'll teach me to read the entire thread in future (Something that's often very hard to do in this section of the forum ):lol2:
> 
> ...


No probs ... as stated my previous comments refers to unlicensed keepers. Your right that a phone call to the council should suffice where a licensed keeper has been bitten, But it's not the hospitals job to invetigate the matter so you may find even in licensed circumstances the hospital notify police just to be safe. The very least that would have to happen is that the council should pay a visit to ensure the terms of the licence are being met ... even though there is no crime there is a duty to protect the public and that job falls down to the police (or in these circumstances the council should do). That means patient confidentiality can be compromised


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

smart1 said:


> id like to no if your silly enuff to keep dwa reps without a licence ,and are unlucky enuff to get tagged then get taken to hosptial. Would you be getting in trouble with the law if they find out you have no licence? if you come out alive that is .....


 
Thats all fair play....But you are digging you're own grave if you are keeping a certain animal, without a lisence. Because without a lisence, nobody knows you've got it. And the local hospital may not stock the serum required.....So if you get tagged....Then you only have yourself to blame.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

WW** said:


> Al,
> 
> The original question referred to unlicensed keepers.
> 
> ...


 
Is this Wokfgang Wuster? If so....Hello


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## Azemiops (May 1, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> Thats all fair play....But you are digging you're own grave if you are keeping a certain animal, without a lisence. Because without a lisence, nobody knows you've got it. And the local hospital may not stock the serum required.....So if you get tagged....Then you only have yourself to blame.


James,

Bare in mind local hospitals DO NOT stock anti-venom. The UK stock for 'public use' with the NHS is held at Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, or Guys Hospital in London.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Azemiops said:


> James,
> 
> Bare in mind local hospitals DO NOT stock anti-venom. The UK stock for 'public use' with the NHS is held at Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, or Guys Hospital in London.


 
Do local Zoos have to stock it for private use? For example...My local Zoo, as to my knowledge doesn't keep Venomous (On display, but hey...Nobody knows what's in the Herp room unless you work there, or know somebody that does) I would've thought Marwell Zoological Park (My local Zoo) would stock Antivenom if there was local private venomous keepers. This is just an example, Please don't take it the wrong way that I am being cocksure again by wanting to keep venomous, I am just using an example for a question


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

I would count on a Sea King trip to London or Liverpool, rather than your local hospital stocking anything... I certainly remember that is what happened to the eijit that got nailed here a few years ago.


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## Azemiops (May 1, 2008)

The fast majority, if not all, zoos and other professional organisations that house venomous snakes will have supplies of anti-venom for the species of snake that they are keeping. However, it is frowned upon and very unpractical for private venomous snake keepers to keep stocks of anti-venom.


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

The cost alone, added to the shelf life, make it really unfeasable to many.. which is why detailed plans should be made incase the worse happens.

In FL the local hospital had the stuff needed if got was stupid, and got nailed... over here? Well I would be making sure that everyone relevant knows what I have and making sure that they are the ones on the contacts list.

A promise I always made myself was that if I was ever bitten, even dry, I would never have another hot.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

I don't believe any zoological collection keeps their own antivenin on site as it can only be administered and stored in a specific fashion. 
Whether the hospitals local to UK institutions hold small stocks for specific species is something I'd wonder about. 
Here in Jersey our local Hospital holds our stock of antivenin which we are required to supply, I'm not sure at all if similar arrangements can occur in the UK or if there is genuinely none held outside of Guy's and LSTM?


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## Azemiops (May 1, 2008)

Saedcantas said:


> I don't believe any zoological collection keeps their own antivenin on site as it can only be administered and stored in a specific fashion.
> Whether the hospitals local to UK institutions hold small stocks for specific species is something I'd wonder about.
> Here in Jersey our local Hospital holds our stock of antivenin which we are required to supply, I'm not sure at all if similar arrangements can occur in the UK or if there is genuinely none held outside of Guy's and LSTM?


Hi Saedcantas,

I know of several proffesional (including Zoological) collections in the UK that stock their own supply of anti-venom for the species they are housing. It is a stipulation within these collections that anti-venom must be held for any venomous snake species that is being held of the premises. I also know of one private DWA keeper in the UK that keeps a small stock of antivenom for at least one species of snake he is keeping.

Cheers, Tom


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Azemiops said:


> I also know of one private DWA keeper in the UK that keeps a small stock of antivenom for at least one species of snake he is keeping.


 
Possibly because He/She is keeping a very rare animal, and serum may be in short supply? Or hard to milk etc?...


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