# To all those in last nights debate on my Community viv



## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

Ok, here is the Viv for you- this is the proof that communities can work. Firstly, some key points that I need to draw attention to.
1)Size requirements. Physical dimensions are less important than how space is used. 
2)Reptiles are more adaptable than we give them credit for.
3)Quality of lighting is the most overlooked aspect of reptile keeping.

History

This Vivarium was built in November 2007, specifically as a community Vivarium, and is still in effect today. Space was limited, and so dimensions were agreed as 4 feet in length, 30 inches in depth and 30 inches in height. The Viv is constructed from MDF, with a ChipBoard backing and Perpex viewing window. Over the 18 months, the Viv has undergone a few small adjustments, namely lighting systems and substrate revisions, but little else has changed. 

Applying numerous principles of Behavioural Biology, coupled with an intimate knowledge of the requirements of the species to be included, I realised that physical floor space would be the biggest problem to overcome, so I built a large raised cave that covers the back left quarter of the Viv. This adds another 2 square feet of space. 

Finally, textured aquarium backing was attached to the back wall of the Viv.

Substrate

Sadly, appropriate substrates are too frequently overlooked in reptile keeping, and the idea that someone keeps a Bearded Dragon on play sand will, I’m sure result in cries of “impaction”. Impaction is a fault of the diet of the animal, not the substrate used; Beardies evolved on sand, and managed for Millennia in the wild without all keeling over from impaction.

The substrate used in this Vivarium is a blend of Peat, Compost, Play sand and Coco Fibre. The soil: sand ratio is roughly 60:40, but varies throughout the enclosure. There are approximately 35 kilogram’s of substrate within the enclosure, average depth being roughly 2 inches, although substrate is racked up to a 5 inch depth in places. Beneath the built in shelf, the substrate is primarily a mixture of soil and hemp; this acts as a cool hide, and one that retains a more humidity than other areas.

Furnishings

A variety of furnishings are employed within this Vivarium. A large section of Cork Bark rests above the built in hide, acting as a second hide and basking point. 2 large branches act as a raised basking spot. There is a large rock pile at the warm end of the Vivarium, which incorporates hides for both live food and occupants.

Additionally, there is a Yucca palm and a Sanseveria within the Viv, sited towards the cool end. These are invariably replaced on occasion, as the Beardies in particular tend to batter them.

Lighting and heating systems

During the winter a heat mat is run- this covers the hot end of the Viv, and covers roughly a fifth of the floor area. 

The primary source of heat and illumination comes from an ExoTerra Daylight Spot; the wattage of which varies throughout the year. These bulbs not only generate a large amount of heat, they also give out an incredibly bright light that boosts the colours of the diurnal species within the enclosure. A 10.0 UVB is sited 18 inches above the substrate, and a daylight tube attached to the roof of the enclosure. Lights are on timers to ensure consistent day- night cycles, with the Fluorescent tubes being on for an extra hour either side of the basking spot; vaguely imitating dawn and dusk periods. 

Species housed

All species were carefully researched before addition to the enclosure. Everything was quarantined for a 2 month period. Everything was declared fit and healthy before addition to the community. Every animal is health checked every 3 days, and in the event of any distress, the animal is removed and isolated. This is standard practise for any community.

1x Gerrhosaurus major- Giant Plated Lizard
1.2 Pogona vitticeps- Inland Bearded Dragon. The actual numbers of Beardies within the enclosure fluctuates as this Viv is my Bearded Dragon breeding Viv.
1x Tiliqua gigas- Blue Tongued Skink
1x Agrionemys horsfieldii- Horsfields Tortoise

With the exception of the Blue Tongued Skink, all animals are savannah/ semi-desert. 
Bearded Dragons and Plated Lizards are naturally placid animals. 
Plated Lizards demand tight hides.

Difficulty may arise from the Plated Lizard and the Skink, as they share similar behaviours. However, with the addition of various hides, this can be countered.

*None of the animals will actively predate each other.*

These are examples of just some of the innumerable considerations I had to make when planning this Viv- it is an experiment, but one that was meticulously planned and exercised. This was not intended as an experiment for an institution, more my own experiment into numerous different aspects of reptile keeping. However, the Viv was accepted as part of a Masters programme in inter-specific interaction amongst Reptiles. 

I can assure you all now that no animals have been subjected to injury or undue stress in the course if this experiment; everything has thrived. 6 clutches of Bearded Dragons have been produced in this enclosure, and my very own Snow Dragon strain was produced under these very settings. Everything is hand tame, sheds perfectly, feeds very well and is in perfect health. Every animal has it’s own place- personal hides that no other animal will enter. The lizards will forage together, and bask together, with no aggression. 

However you may disagree, at least you have to accept the fact that this is a fully functional, working community in which numerous different species are flourishing within a relatively small environment. Of course there are factors I wish to remedy- I would like to enlarge the enclosure, for one, but I do not consider it necessary to break up an experiment of this calibre for the sake of an extra foot or two of length. 

Highly regarded Veterinarians have seen the enclosure, as have some very experienced Reptile Keepers, and all have been astounded by this enclosure. I am not defending myself from any of you, nor am I defending my choices in this-it works- you can see how it works, and it covers more detailed aspects of Reptile Keeping than I care to mention.

Any further questions, please message me.


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*Will post pictures when I buy some batteries.*​


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## bzakd (Mar 23, 2009)

cool info, good post: victory:


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

the thing i diagree with there is... its only 4 foot. i keep two berber skinks in a 4 foot, how can you keep 6 big lizards on one?


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

Thankyou. And more importantly all animals safe and happy


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## mrcarlxx (May 1, 2009)

sounds awesome! got any pics?

edit just noticed you have no batts, hurry up man...it sounds great!


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

freekygeeky said:


> the thing i diagree with there is... its only 4 foot. i keep two berber skinks in a 4 foot, how can you keep 6 big lizards on one?


*Its a 3 dimensional environment, not a 2 dimensional so unlike most 4fts this one has considerations taken into account to add another foot on in length in terms of the actual layout.*​


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*Yep as stated i have to go to work at 4pm so il buy some and take some when i get home at 6pm *​


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

freekygeeky said:


> the thing i diagree with there is... its only 4 foot. i keep two berber skinks in a 4 foot, how can you keep 6 big lizards on one?


THANKS YOU 

THATS MY POINT!

If your going to keep them together (which is would NEVER recomend) Adleast have a large enclosure of some sort.

The only reason , i can see for anyone to atempt this is to SAVE MONEY.

Which is not in the best interest of the reptiles


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## bzakd (Mar 23, 2009)

i overlooked the size part, i dont have a problem with mixing species bur that dose seem a little small


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> *Its a 3 dimensional environment, not a 2 dimensional so unlike most 4fts this one has considerations taken into account to add another foot on in length in terms of the actual layout.*​


still four foot seems tiny, and mine is 1.5 deep and 1.5 tall too, bigger than yours infact,and mine has tunnles, and bark meanignit has two sort of levels, with 2 berbers....it just seems tiny. But i cant really se it, we need pics!


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## imitebmike (Jun 22, 2008)

errr...you already stated that the BTS is from a different environment then you have in the viv...so why is it there? 

Anyhoo, to each their own i guess


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## mrcarlxx (May 1, 2009)

bzakd said:


> i overlooked the size part, i dont have a problem with mixing species bur that dose seem a little small


what 30" deep 30" wide and 4 foot long? with a extra platform.....thats more room than a zoo would provide!


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*For the LAST time, its not physical space, its how physical space is used. I suggest reading it several times.*​


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> *For the LAST time, its not physical space, its how physical space is used. I suggest reading it several times.*​


lol, angry?
i read it all actually
even if it has this magical 3d physical space, it still seems small to me.
either way i woudl love to see some pics!


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

mrcarlxx said:


> what 30" deep 30" wide and 4 foot long? with a extra platform.....thats more room than a zoo would provide!


What for 5 reps? i've been to alot of Zoo's, many have large tanks/viv/enclosures for them


A BTS - 3FT MIN, NORMALLY 4FT

2 BD'S 4FT MIN

TORT - 3FT, PREFERABLY TORT TABLE

1 PLATED LIZARD - 3FT




No way of dressing it up 



I can see everyone disgreeing, (well the people who have years of experience)


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

freekygeeky said:


> lol, angry?
> i read it all actually
> even if it has this magical 3d physical space, it still seems small to me.
> either way i woudl love to see some pics!


Magical 3D made me LOL


And yes, pics of this viv would be nice : victory:


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*No not angry, frustrated that we are constantly going over the same ground.*
*I have 13 years of experienced coupled with thousands of pounds of investment. this isnt my only community, this isnt the only one that works. this is an example of my longest running community and so i was merely posting a reply in detail about the work we have done.*

*I have posted everything to defend this viv, its amazing.*

*Yeah like i said il get some photos just need batteries for my cam.*​


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## retri (Mar 5, 2008)

Im just looking forward to pictures, I find it very interesting, when I read community I was expecting anoles ect.

I have no objections to the enclosure, but I also feel that for the ammount of large lizards I wuld have expected a larger enclosure, but still it sounds a very interesting set up and am very interested to see how it looks


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## bzakd (Mar 23, 2009)

mrcarlxx said:


> what 30" deep 30" wide and 4 foot long? with a extra platform.....thats more room than a zoo would provide!


 my wds have a 6ft tall by 5 wide and 2 deep enclosure and ther still small, my bosc has half a room to itslef so in my opinion it 'sounds' a little small better juggment when iv seen pics


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> *No not angry, frustrated that we are constantly going over the same ground.*
> *I have 13 years of experienced coupled with thousands of pounds of investment. this isnt my only community, this isnt the only one that works. this is an example of my longest running community and so i was merely posting a reply in detail about the work we have done.*
> 
> *I have posted everything to defend this viv, its amazing.*
> ...



i have 11 years + my other halfs 5.... of experince and over probably 7 or so grands worth of inverstment, it doesnt make me any better, but you mentioned it first..

anyway, i will wait till i see pics. and go from there


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

stephenie191 said:


> Magical 3D made me LOL
> 
> 
> And yes, pics of this viv would be nice : victory:


Why is that funny? 

You have only heard horror stories of people who get it wrong. As all the community threads and stickys state - It CAN be done, it IS risky but it can also work VERY well


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## angela__k__84 (Oct 4, 2008)

This sounds very interesting, in my opinion and can't wait to see pics.
I believe the OP stated that the viv was 30" deep and high - that's 2.5 foot.
So all in it is 4x2.5x2.5.


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> *No not angry, frustrated that we are constantly going over the same ground.*
> 
> *I have 13 years of experienced coupled with thousands of pounds of investment. this isnt my only community, this isnt the only one that works. this is an example of my longest running community and so i was merely posting a reply in detail about the work we have done.*​
> *I have posted everything to defend this viv, its amazing.*​
> *Yeah like i said il get some photos just need batteries for my cam.*​


*Heat mat in the viv* - Bd's, skinks don't scence heat with their bellys, i will not comment on the other two, as i havn't owned them.

*Substrate -*Torts, skinks, don't like sand. They both like to dig, burrow, sand isn't recomended for EITHER of them

i can go on . . . 


*the point is, why not just give them their own viv?*

*They don't bond to each other, they would then get their individual requirments met?*


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

angela__k__84 said:


> This sounds very interesting, in my opinion and can't wait to see pics.
> I believe the OP stated that the viv was 30" deep and high - that's 2.5 foot.
> So all in it is 4x2.5x2.5.



*yeah it is. lol yeah 6.30pm il get some shots up.*​


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

angela__k__84 said:


> This sounds very interesting, in my opinion and can't wait to see pics.
> I believe the OP stated that the viv was 30" deep and high - that's 2.5 foot.
> So all in it is 4x2.5x2.5.


ok i got it a little wrong, still its only a tinnny bit gigger than mine, and i have two berbers, how ever they are fat lol... they take up alot of room! lol


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## angela__k__84 (Oct 4, 2008)

The OP also stated she uses a sand/soil/peat/coco fibre mix.
It is recommended to keep torts on a sand/soil mix.
Let's not jump all over the OP, eh?


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

stephenie191 said:


> *Heat mat in the viv* - Bd's, skinks don't scence heat with their bellys, i will not comment on the other two, as i havn't owned them.
> 
> *Substrate -*Torts, skinks, don't like sand. They both like to dig, burrow, sand isn't recomended for EITHER of them
> 
> ...


*
ITS NOT JUST SAND!!! READ THE DAMN THREAD OMG LOL ***Bangs head against wall***
*​


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## retri (Mar 5, 2008)

Its amazing how people do not read..... 

substrate is a mix of sand an soil correct?

Also 4x1.5x1.5 is not larger than 4ft by 30 inches by 30 inches....


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## angela__k__84 (Oct 4, 2008)

freekygeeky said:


> ok i got it a little wrong, still its only a tinnny bit gigger than mine, and i have two berbers, how ever they are fat lol... they take up alot of room! lol


I wasn't trying to get at anyone. Just thought I'd mention as noone seemed to have noticed


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

surely you'll accept these points 

firstly this sentence is a lie 



Scarlet_Rain said:


> *None of the animals will actively predate each other.*


It's a commonly known fact blue tongues given half a chance will eat most things and them killing and eat small and in some cases similarly sized lizards in the wild is by no mean unheard of. 


secondly while you say its not the size its what you do with it I'm sure you understand that its impossible for a group of reptiles this size to express there full range of movements without regularly coming into physical contact without another animal, surely this will result in some kind of stress or at least the animal having to modify it behaviour patterns in an unnatural way (which could cause stress). 

Finally you would only have room for 1 basking spot, reptiles aren't capable or reasoning/sharing and acting for the common good, they dont have the mental capacity, surely you can see there will always be a risk that one day one of these animals could attack the other to gain access to the limited resources supplied in a vivarium of this size or one could be simply out competed thus suffer

this is why people are against what you are doing.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

retri said:


> Also 4x1.5x1.5 is not larger than 4ft by 30 inches by 30 inches....



read above you.


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## fran2491 (Oct 10, 2008)

all i an say on this one is i look forward to the pics lol, i think that viv is to small :gasp: but will hold back with comments until iv seen pics:flrt:


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> *ITS NOT JUST SAND!!! READ THE DAMN THREAD OMG LOL ***Bangs head against wall****​


I did read the thread, i have no idea on Torts, i do however know the viv is too small.

Which ever way you dress it up.:whistling2:


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*The size really isnt an issue. This isn't about money. This isn't cruelty.*​


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

scarlet_rain said:


> *the size really isnt an issue. This isn't about money. This isn't cruelty.*​


 
so i aks you

why keep them together?

Why not let them have their own space?

Why not let them have a viv each so they can have their individual needs met?


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

spend_day said:


> surely you'll accept these points
> 
> firstly this sentence is a lie
> 
> ...



*When it was first built there were 2 basking spots but it was unnecessary and put in 1 high quality bulb instead.

The animals do come into contact, even actively hunt with each other, no fighting ever occurs. tort was sleeping with the plated earlier, skink was in his hide, beardies basking.*


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## Juzza12 (Jun 12, 2008)

If mixing species works for you then fine, clearly nothing anyone says on here will change what you're doing. I get what you mean by using the space to it's full potential, but i still think that viv is too small for that many animals.


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

stephenie191 said:


> so i aks you
> 
> why keep them together?
> 
> ...


*
States in the artical. If I am looking to see how different animals interact it would defeat the object to house them individually. I have lots of other reptiles which are housed individual.

The heatmat is only on during the winter as it clearly states.*


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## bzakd (Mar 23, 2009)

i have no issue with mixing species i am in the process of making a bigger planted enclosure for my wds so that i have the option to introduce another species, thers a guy called arthur cook (i think) he has done some brilliant community vivs with amazing outcomes, 'but his vivs are pretty massive!!!


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

Juzza12 said:


> If mixing species works for you then fine, clearly nothing anyone says on here will change what you're doing. I get what you mean by using the space to it's full potential, but i still think that viv is too small for that many animals.


*
You are all behind computers right now, with a massive internet at your disposal.

if you were to come and see this in the flesh so to speak, i guarentee you would think otherwise 

If this viv carries on doing well, i may expand it in the future to allow for more space for each animal but for now its doing fine.
*


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> *When it was first built there were 2 basking spots but it was unnecessary and put in 1 high quality bulb instead.
> 
> The animals do come into contact, even actively hunt with each other, no fighting ever occurs. tort was sleeping with the plated earlier, skink was in his hide, beardies basking.*


with 2 basking spots surely the temp gradient was hard to maintain. 


while no fighting has yet to occur someone of your understanding should be aware this isnt a problem that reduces with time most reptiles cannot form bonds with other species (most cant even do it with there own). a reptile is just as likely to bite another reptile on day 1000 as it was on say day 100. its a constant risk.


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

bzakd said:


> i have no issue with mixing species i am in the process of making a bigger planted enclosure for my wds so that i have the option to introduce another species, thers a guy called arthur cook (i think) he has done some brilliant community vivs with amazing outcomes, 'but his vivs are pretty massive!!!


*Arthur cook is freaking awesome!! yes he has done some fantastic work, awesome guy D*


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> *States in the artical. If I am looking to see how different animals interact it would defeat the object to house them individually. I have lots of other reptiles which are housed individual.*
> 
> *The heatmat is only on during the winter as it clearly states.*


So it's for YOUR benefit.

And as EVERYONE has said, viv is TOO small.

You chose to not answer that though, nothing anyone says will change your mind, so i just hope, for the rep's sake, one or two don't end up dead


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## retri (Mar 5, 2008)

The only reason people feel that the viv is too small is that they are going from what they have been told about viv size, think outside of the box people, just because the forum commands that a beardie must be kept in a 4x2x2 it does not mean that this viv cannot work.

Think the forumites need to be a bit more open minded and realise that this was done as an experiment and has been sucessful for 2 years so far, there is always the chance that one animal could attack the other but then the same it true for people who cohabit beardies but how many people on the forum do that....


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## James D (Nov 17, 2008)

No matter how many 'extra levels' you put in there, you cannot make the volume bigger than it actually is. The majority of people would agree that the size of viv you have is too small.

Beardies, BTS, and the tort are primarily terrestrial and therefore using the same physical space.....I don't know about the plated lizard but I'm guessing they are too. I'm not sure you've put quite as much thought into this as you claim you have. It is ridiculous to keep that many medium sized animal in a viv the size of yours.

The trouble with reptiles is if you keep them in barely tolerable conditions or the best conditions possible, you'll notice very little physical difference. If there was enough data to measure coritcosteroid levels etc. and prove that they are not stressed then I would believe you, but until that day I choose to house my species seperately....


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## Dingle87 (Apr 18, 2009)

If its true what you said that no fighting occurs and all the reps get on, then what you have done is quite remarkable, no one can comment on the viv until pictures are up and ppl can see them, then comment. 
This could of ended up being very nasty, but it aint. 
Bring on the pictures!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

Can i ask whats the floor space in square inches, if you included all the shelves or whateva you have used to produce more room


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

retri said:


> The only reason people feel that the viv is too small is that they are going from what they have been told about viv size, think outside of the box people, just because the forum commands that a beardie must be kept in a 4x2x2 it does not mean that this viv cannot work.
> 
> Think the forumites need to be a bit more open minded and realise that this was done as an experiment and has been sucessful for 2 years so far, there is always the chance that one animal could attack the other but then the same it true for people who cohabit beardies but how many people on the forum do that....


Have you looked into Skinks?

Blue tongued skinks are known for eating anything that moves.

Their jaws are so powerful, they can crack open land snails with ease.


I have read so much on Blue sites, about them attacking other lizards, even their own species.

I have always gone by what i think, i'm not an arm chair expert, but with having hands on experience with Skinks . . .


i belive they should Never be kept with any other species.

99.9% of Bluey owners would agree and do on many sitess.

It's a miracle it hasn't attacked another one by now, maybe it's overweight or their are other factors going on, which would explain why it hasn't try'd to eat another one by now


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## spikemu (Jul 5, 2008)

i think hes taken alll necessary precautions tbh 

its not lke hes just thrown animals in to see wat would happen. 

ok yes the viv is abit small and ideally could have been 2 or 3 foot longer but the OP has done research (however i would like to see what made them think of putting a BTS in with the deserty lizards as i thought ud have to spray them ??? ) but also i have seen this done before at a rescue place heere Berkshire Reptile Rescue - Permanent residents. 

but in all honesty health checks ever 3 weeks thts pretty good so if there is a problem with them they will be taken out straight away. 

i say good luck with you community viv. just PLEASE take REALLY good care of them and keep records of all their health ( weight etc)


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## retri (Mar 5, 2008)

At the end of the day as much as people on the forum think they are...

there is no such thing as the reptile police, if someone has chosen to do this, it is thier choice, there is no deliberate harm coming to the animals, and the set up has so far been sucessful, if all animals are healthy the only rules being broken are those of the forumites that love to enforce them


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Way too small. I dont believe all you animals are able to ''be happy'' in such a small space, even if the space is used to the highest beneficiary. I believe mixed species work well only when _extra _space is provided. This would be opposed to trying to squeeze more things onto a smaller space by "thinking outside the box". 

it may work purely because the species put up with it and are not adapting like you say. 

Look forward to pictures but just over a ft squared per animal is mad NMO.


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

Dingle87 said:


> If its true what you said that no fighting occurs and all the reps get on, then what you have done is quite remarkable, no one can comment on the viv until pictures are up and ppl can see them, then comment.
> This could of ended up being very nasty, but it aint.
> Bring on the pictures!!!!!!!!!!!!


As i stated earlier its not a risk that reduces over time and lizards dont "get on" that implys they form some kind of bond or connection they simply tolerate each others presence. Compitition and stress based aggression is an ever present worry


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## imitebmike (Jun 22, 2008)

Until the pictures are put up, we cant really judge/whine...Who knows, maybe its like the tardis:2thumb:


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

Hmm sounds interesting.I was wanting to do a water dragon/basilisk/sailfin dragon tank...But after reading up that they needed huge amounts of space, so that 1 can get away from another, I won't be doing it any time soon.

My male water draogn recently turned on my female, crushing and breaking her arm...Hope nothing like this happens in yours, but with only 4ft to play around with they can't really get away from 1 another...


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## Dingle87 (Apr 18, 2009)

spend_day said:


> As i stated earlier its not a risk that reduces over time and lizards dont "get on" that implys they form some kind of bond or connection they simply tolerate each others presence. Compitition and stress based aggression is an ever present worry


yes but surly if they didnt get on then, then attacks would happen? 2 years they been together to me that sounds like it works, to ppl who disagree, have you ever tried this yourselves?????


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

James D said:


> No matter how many 'extra levels' you put in there, you cannot make the volume bigger than it actually is. The majority of people would agree that the size of viv you have is too small.
> 
> Beardies, BTS, and the tort are primarily terrestrial and therefore using the same physical space.....I don't know about the plated lizard but I'm guessing they are too. I'm not sure you've put quite as much thought into this as you claim you have. It is ridiculous to keep that many medium sized animal in a viv the size of yours.
> 
> The trouble with reptiles is if you keep them in barely tolerable conditions or the best conditions possible, you'll notice very little physical difference. If there was enough data to measure coritcosteroid levels etc. and prove that they are not stressed then I would believe you, but until that day I choose to house my species seperately....



I have to echo these sentiments, and also add a few others. 

Firstly you talk about realized space, and the volume of the tank. What you mean here is realized surface area, and for the animals you have housed in this tank, the shelves you have added do not increase the area enough.

Secondly, please don't try to pass this off as science, this is not an experiment, and I would question your understanding of "behavioral biology" if you don't realize that co-habiting-animals can be subjected to physical stresses without fighting.

There are too many holes in your argument for me to address individually, but I would urge you to consider whether what you consider "successful" is infact optimal for each individual.

Andy


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

Dingle87 said:


> yes but surly if they didnt get on then, then attacks would happen? 2 years they been together to me that sounds like it works, to ppl who disagree, have you ever tried this yourselves?????


your missing the point. your wording sounds like "Oh its been 2 years its no longer a risk" this is wrong, quoting my self form earlier aggression is just as likely on day 1000 as it was on say day 100. aggression isn't a certainty but its not a risk that disipates with time either. these animals do seem to tollerate each other but there will be limited resources in this enclosure (space only 1 basking point etc) this is one of the reasons people are worried about this viv


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> Sadly, appropriate substrates are too frequently overlooked in reptile keeping, and the idea that someone keeps a Bearded Dragon on play sand will, I’m sure result in cries of “impaction”. Impaction is a fault of the diet of the animal, not the substrate used; Beardies evolved on sand, and managed for Millennia in the wild without all keeling over from impaction.
> .


Actually Bearded dragons dont live on sand in the wild did you bother researching a beardies habitat? they live on hard baked earth with a layer of dry soil over the top thats what bearded dragons live on, There is actually v. few true sandy deserts in australia.


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## SandiskReptiles (May 13, 2009)

Hello all to this thread - i am very much interested.

I have never ever attempted a community viv at all, even though i would love to i dare not.

If you desire a community home for reptiles, then fair enough it is your choice entirely. I cannot understand why everyone has got so heated up about this - many people house and keep a community viv going for many years without even 1 problem happening. HOWEVER -

i do understand it isonly 4ft - and i do agree it MUST be enlarged. bearded dragons alone need a minimum of 3ft, one russian tortoise needs a minimum of 3ft, and im not sure about others. I would definitely upgrade your size.

I have nothing against you maintaining a lovely community home for reptiles and amphibians, just upgrade your space.

Make sure everything is similar in their care i.e heat requirements, diet, lighting, heating etc.


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Secondly, please don't try to pass this off as science, this is not an experiment, and I would question your understanding of "behavioral biology" if you don't realize that co-habiting-animals can be subjected to physical stresses without fighting.


 I have to agree. I may not be a zoologist or herpetologist but I am a fairly good amateur scientist and I also have a vague understanding of reptilian behaviour and this didnt really fit the bill for an experiment and there did seem to be holes in your reasoning, but i tried to keep my points to why people thought this was a bad idea rather than saying something that could come accross as an insult


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## Luke T (Apr 13, 2009)

oof! debate much!! :mf_dribble:

however i have to concur, i completly agree with stephenie on the points raised, especially size.

as most of the other commens have said... some pics would greatly help and quell some of our argumentative opinions, or perhapse inspire them  but still *gief pics!!!!*

*Luke*


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## start-up (Feb 28, 2008)

Hows about we wait till 6 untill we all getto see the photos? then you can argue as much as you like once you have ACTUALLY seen the habitat that he has provided. I for one am just curious to see what he has done with the viv, for all we know he could have a tardis?

M


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

start-up said:


> Hows about we wait till 6 untill we all getto see the photos? then you can argue as much as you like once you have ACTUALLY seen the habitat that he has provided. I for one am just curious to see what he has done with the viv, for all we know he could have a tardis?
> 
> M


a magical tardis 
whoop


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## James D (Nov 17, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Secondly, please don't try to pass this off as science, this is not an experiment, and I would question your understanding of "behavioral biology" if you don't realize that co-habiting-animals can be subjected to physical stresses without fighting.


I agree with you 100% Andy.

This has been made to look as though it was a controlled experiment and by throwing in terms such as 'behavioural biology' you have made it look as though you really do know what you are doing. However, several points you have raised yourself conflict this......

You say that you have '_an intimate knowledge of the requirements of the species to be included_' and yet you add 5 medium-large sized lizards and a tortoise to a 48x30x30" viv.

You also recognise that a BTS is not an animal from an arid environment and yet you add it in anyway.

You use a heatmat for diurnal species which are known to link bright sources of light with heat and are not designed to absorb stored heat from the ground.

You go on to say this:



> Difficulty may arise from the Plated Lizard and the Skink, as they share similar behaviours. However, with the addition of various hides, this can be countered.


And yet you still add them both, despite knowing the BTS also requires a different environment.



> I can assure you all now that no animals have been subjected to injury or *undue stress* in the course if this experiment; everything has thrived.


How were you measuring stress levels?
I didn't think that corticosteroid levels had been measured in reptilians enough to be used as a control. If they have then please send me a link to where I can read the paper as I would be most interested.

How do you define the word 'thrived'......beardies aren't exactly known to be a difficult species to breed. If you put a male and female together in most situations they tend to breed no matter how far away it is from their natural environment.



> However you may disagree, at least you have to accept the *fact* that this is a fully functional, working community in which numerous different species are flourishing within a relatively small environment.


Facts require evidence for which you have none.
All we have so far is your word that these animals are 'thriving' with no scientific data to prove yourself correct.
It is for this reason that I will not accept your findings as 'fact', but rather a misguided attempt at watching reptiles become friends.....

By the way, which principles were you referring to in the following quote?



> Applying numerous principles of Behavioural Biology


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## laura-jayne (Feb 15, 2009)

Ive seen a few comunal vivs. Newquay zoo has some uros with a sking. and a ball python with some day geckos. So im intrested none the less..Where are the pictures? Have you got batteries yet?


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

All I will say is that the substrate isn't deep enough (I believe you said 5inch) for the Russian tort in my opinion. My other concern that is they like to eat poop. I can see the high protein poo from the carnivores causing major concerns at some point in the future. Not to mention the high amount of internal parasites that many torts have which could easily be transferred to the others in there. If each of these issues are addressed, I couldn't comment on the other species.


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## Jonny357 (Nov 8, 2008)

jesus christ, everyones an expert on this forum........

at the end of the day, people can rant and shout and tug their hair and jump up and down

wont achieve anything. if its working for him (rightly or wrongly) then no amount of claims of superior knowledge and sh*t is going to make him change anything.

i dont see why people wont just get that into their skulls. everyone has to have an opinion on everything. there is no law against communal vivs, i mean sure they may fight and there may be agression, but oh wait that never happens between individuals of the same species, especially during mating?????

why is everyone so self righteous that they assume that it is their duty to enforce these things (btw im talking about both sides here, im not passing any judgement at all untill ive seen pictures, unlike some)

anyway, done


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## strictly_scales (Sep 10, 2008)

Good afternoon,

I am Strictly_Scales- this community is mine; I wrote the original article, built and designed the Vivarium myself, to the best of my ability, after months of planning and designing. 

Firstly, I am not just some forum obsessed noob here- I am a qualified Zoologist, a Reptile and Aquatics Trader and a qualified lecturer in Animal Care. I invest everything I have in my reptiles, and have done for many years. Most of my life has gone into Herpetoculture, and I have had the privilage of working with over 60 species of snake, over 50 species of lizard, 20 Chelonia sp, not to mention the numerous Invertebrate and Amphibean species. 

This enclosure was a scientific experiment of the highest order- one that has produced some fascinating results, all documented, and one which is highly repeatable. As has been stated by Scarlet Rain, co-keeper, this Vivarium was accepted as a basis for a Masters programme into Inter-specific interactions amongst reptiles. 

I have worked with this enclosure evryday for 18 months now. There has never been any conflict. Every animal is of the optimal weight, and in peak physical fitness. 

This, as has been previoysly stated many times, was not just thrown together- it was not formed by simply dumping a load of reptiles into a wooden box just to see what happens. It was designed, from the ground upwards, to meet the requirements of each of the 4 species housed, and to do so within a relatively small space. 

Several of you talk about "inthe wild" this and that, but these are not wild animals we are talking about, and as artificial as keeping different species in one enclosure may be, it is no more artificial than a human opening the enclosure everyday to deliver fresh water and food. 

You talk of the strength of Skinks jaws as if I don't know that already. You act as though I know nothing about the animals I keep. However, what rapidly becomes apparant is that few people on this site are willing to experiment, and even fewer are willing to attempt to understand some of the finer points of reptile care. For example, optimal lighting outputs; blended substrates;you are all too happy to flick open the first guide you find and take that as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. 

We know next to nothing about bond froming in reptiles, and virtualluy nothing on relative intelligence among reptiles. 

However, some of you do manage to raise some relatively interesting points on a few subjects that I will go into in more detail.

Competition. Competition is a factor that primarily affects wild animals, due to the irregular and often seasonal availability of certain items. Comeptition in captivity is greatly reduced, and in many cases almost completely redundant. Yes, there is only one basking site. However, there is a full dawn/day/dusk/night cycle going on here that enables the animals to bask at the times they would naturally be most active anyway. Example. The Plated Lizard basks in the early morning, and doesn't re-emerge until early evening, as in nature. The Beardies, being lazy, just laze about most of the day, coming down to the floor of the Viv as and when to feed. The skink is most active in the afternoon. And the activity of the tortoise varies considerably throughout the year. At the moment, he is active only during the early part of the day, where-upon he either burrows into the deep substrate in the cooler end, or hides in the large cave. 

So, in actual fact, very few of the animals are out and about and contacting eachother at any one time. 

You mention sizes, almost continuously. Yes, the Viv is relatively small. Yes, it could be bigger, and yes, as originally stated, I would make it bigger if necessary. It hasn't proved to be so yet. Physical floor space is, with everything taken into account, pushing the 15 square foot mark, allowing 3 square feet of physical space for each animal. Thats actually more space than you allow for each of your Berber skinks. 

Even when you mention sizes, you will notice that the sizes match the species; i just simply added more species. 

You imply that one day the skink may go on a crazy killing spree, but what would be the reason for that? For these animals now, they have known little else, and are all content in the fact that they share their space with other species.

The Viv itself is immaculately presented at all times- the conditions are about as far from barely tolerable as you can get. This is a display Viv after all. 

As a final note, seeing as all this has incensed me a fair deal, there appear to be some responding to this who seem to only keep very basic snake species. I wonder why that justifies an all out, rude attack on a concept that, although controversial, is known to work, and can work extremely well. 

Pictures are most definitely on their way. 

Yours, strictly_scales, herpetolculturist and staunch advocate of Community Vivaria


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## SandiskReptiles (May 13, 2009)

LiamRatSnake said:


> All I will say is that the substrate isn't deep enough (I believe you said 5inch) for the Russian tort in my opinion. My other concern that is they like to eat poop. I can see the high protein poo from the carnivores causing major concerns at some point in the future. Not to mention the high amount of internal parasites that many torts have which could easily be transferred to the others in there. If each of these issues are addressed, I couldn't comment on the other species.


Tortoises like to eat poop? they got issues. My pair never eat it.

So anyway! yes also i never noticed before 5inch for a russian tortoise is not good - they are true and mighty fine diggers - an average adult whos 6inches needs a minimum of 8inch digging.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Ok, my issue is that this "community experiment" (and yes, I believe the viv is too small - this experiment in MY personal opinion should have taken place in a spare-room-sized enclosure if it needed to be done) has only been running for about 18 months.

Stress won't necessarily kill or even cause damage to a reptile in that amount of time (heck, some animals can go without_ food_ for nearly that long without appreciable health effects) ... but it will still be affecting the animals.

It's all well and good for me to say, for example, "I house my kingsnake with my cornsnake, I've done it for six months and they're perfectly fine, they like each other*" ... but that doesn't mean I'm acting in the best interests of my animals or that something will not go drastically wrong that could have been eliminated by not housing the animals together at all. I believe that in choosing to bring animals into our homes we are also choosing to take on the responsibility of acting in their best interests, not ours.

If I were ever going to do a community enclosure it would be exclusively comprised of animals from the same part of the world, not four species none of which live in the same country let alone the same exact region and habitat.

*Note: Although I may be some kind of idiot, I am not THAT kind of idiot. My king's got his own four-foot viv; the corns live in their own solo housing too.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

SandiskReptiles said:


> Tortoises like to eat poop? they got issues. My pair never eat it.
> 
> So anyway! yes also i never noticed before 5inch for a russian tortoise is not good - they are true and mighty fine diggers - an average adult whos 6inches needs a minimum of 8inch digging.


I believe they should have at least a couple of feet. They burrow very very deep in the wild. If anyone had kept a Russian without adequate room to burrow, they will know of the scratching they can do for hours before settling.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

communal vivs are ONE thing... controlled experiments another.. do you honestly think your 4ft tank consitutes a fair size for everything you have in there?.. and yes I read its 4ft x30inches x30 inches..

there is someone who has a fascinating mixed species tank.. he posted a video on you tube can anyone remember his RFUK forum name...?????

he had a fascinating take on mixing species and whilst i may not agree with mixed tanks in the main he had really done his research and his set up was amazing!!!!


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

"Firstly, I am not just some forum obsessed noob here- I am a qualified Zoologist, a Reptile and Aquatics Trader and a qualified lecturer in Animal Care. I invest everything I have in my reptiles, and have done for many years. Most of my life has gone into Herpetoculture, and I have had the privilage of working with over 60 species of snake, over 50 species of lizard, 20 Chelonia sp, not to mention the numerous Invertebrate and Amphibean species. 

This enclosure was a scientific experiment of the highest order- one that has produced some fascinating results, all documented, and one which is highly repeatable. As has been stated by Scarlet Rain, co-keeper, this Vivarium was accepted as a basis for a Masters programme into Inter-specific interactions amongst reptiles."

Excellent, I would love to read these findings, and have attached my email address:
[email protected]

Also if it is finished, I wouldn't mind taking a look at your thesis. Obviously please feel free to decline this offer.

As it happens I am also an advocate of community vivaria, however much of your reasoning appears to be flawed. However, hopefully things will become clearer if we get a chance to read your documented evidence.

Kind regards,
Andy


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> "Firstly, I am not just some forum obsessed noob here- I am a qualified Zoologist, a Reptile and Aquatics Trader and a qualified lecturer in Animal Care. I invest everything I have in my reptiles, and have done for many years. Most of my life has gone into Herpetoculture, and I have had the privilage of working with over 60 species of snake, over 50 species of lizard, 20 Chelonia sp, not to mention the numerous Invertebrate and Amphibean species.
> 
> This enclosure was a scientific experiment of the highest order- one that has produced some fascinating results, all documented, and one which is highly repeatable. As has been stated by Scarlet Rain, co-keeper, this Vivarium was accepted as a basis for a Masters programme into Inter-specific interactions amongst reptiles."
> 
> ...


Ill second that: 

attached is my e-mail address [email protected]


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

ShaneLuvsMonitors said:


> Ill second that:
> 
> attached is my e-mail address [email protected]



and me, and i tink my OH would be interested too
check my sig out for email address.


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## strictly_scales (Sep 10, 2008)

Cool, 

Well, all the info is liberally scattered through various notebooks, but I'll attempt to produce some written summary. I never went on to carry out the masters- the proposal was enough to get me in, but I have veered more towards the Veterinary side now. However, I can still produce the necessary work. It'll take a while, but I have noted your e-mail addresses, and will forward to you when I can. The results are not very quantitative, but none-the-less, make for interesting reading.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

strictly_scales said:


> Cool,
> 
> Well, all the info is liberally scattered through various notebooks, but I'll attempt to produce some written summary. I never went on to carry out the masters- the proposal was enough to get me in, but I have veered more towards the Veterinary side now. However, I can still produce the necessary work. It'll take a while, but I have noted your e-mail addresses, and will forward to you when I can. The results are not very quantitative, but none-the-less, make for interesting reading.


Excellent, and I shall endeavor to give you full and frank feedback.

Andy


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

strictly_scales said:


> Cool,
> 
> Well, all the info is liberally scattered through various notebooks, but I'll attempt to produce some written summary. I never went on to carry out the masters- the proposal was enough to get me in, but I have veered more towards the Veterinary side now. However, I can still produce the necessary work. It'll take a while, but I have noted your e-mail addresses, and will forward to you when I can. The results are not very quantitative, but none-the-less, make for interesting reading.


eh?

Do you have two accounts?


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

*Loving the OP's bold type face.


Grrrrrrrr.: victory:
*


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

Dextersdad said:


> *Loving the OP's bold type face.*
> 
> 
> *Grrrrrrrr.: victory:*


yup angry on a forum with type is always cause for amusement.


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## Mirf (May 22, 2008)

stephenie191 said:


> eh?
> 
> Do you have two accounts?


 
Two people living at the same address, as stated in strictly_scales first reply.


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## Paulusworm (Jan 26, 2009)

strictly_scales said:


> Good afternoon,
> 
> I am Strictly_Scales- this community is mine; I wrote the original article, built and designed the Vivarium myself, to the best of my ability, after months of planning and designing.
> 
> ...


YES!!! At last. Somebodywho IS qualified to comment. :welcome:. The whole experiment sounds like an interesting concept. Very interested in seeing the pics when they are posted and the final outcome.

Scarlett Rain: I've just completed my undergraduate forensic entomology research project and was getting very similar responses to those which you are receiving. Trust me mate, there is nothing like the feeling of getting the results to back up your theory and say "See, I told you". Hang in there mate : victory:


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## strictly_scales (Sep 10, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> If I were ever going to do a community enclosure it would be exclusively comprised of animals from the same part of the world, not four species none of which live in the same country let alone the same exact region and habitat.


That is my main regret with this enclosure- I too wish I had used species from the same Geographical region.


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## Antw23uk (Jan 12, 2009)

Sorry to interrupt but have i missed the pics on this thread or just wasted my time scrolling through nine pages?


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## imitebmike (Jun 22, 2008)

Antw23uk said:


> Sorry to interrupt but have i missed the pics on this thread or just wasted my time scrolling through nine pages?


No pictures yet...


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## James D (Nov 17, 2008)

Paulusworm said:


> YES!!! At last. Somebodywho IS qualified to comment. :welcome:.


Why are we not qualified to comment?
Do you have to have a certain level of education to give an opinion on something?

And for the record, I too have a zoology degree so hopefully my comments can retain their validity :bash:


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

can i have a copy too, [email protected]


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## Mirf (May 22, 2008)

Scarlett Rain said she is working till 6 and is then getting batteries for the camera, so I would imagine pics will be available soon after. :2thumb:


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

James D said:


> Why are we not qualified to comment?
> Do you have to have a certain level of education to give an opinion on something?
> 
> And for the record, I too have a zoology degree so hopefully my comments can retain their validity :bash:


if you dont have the right degree you are usless 
like me.


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## paulab (Mar 26, 2009)

I think you just like causing trouble. Its seem you have already disscused this with no pics last time either. Won't coment about the size until i see. Hope for your sake they all look happy and well :Na_Na_Na_Na:.


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## Paulusworm (Jan 26, 2009)

James D said:


> Why are we not qualified to comment?
> Do you have to have a certain level of education to give an opinion on something?
> 
> And for the record, I too have a zoology degree so hopefully my comments can retain their validity :bash:


Not aimed at anyone in particular and I apologise if I missed your post. 
There are too many people on here passing judgement without having all of the facts in front of them. As a scientist you will know that you need to have all of the facts in front of you before you can come to your conclusion. These experiments are what produces the norm. The norm is decided upon by scientific experimentation and observation. Science evolves through open-mindedness. People blindly following the norm will not allow potentially better husbandry techniques to be developed. 

If you are a zoology graduate you will know this already. :bash: right back at ya :Na_Na_Na_Na:.


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## retri (Mar 5, 2008)

stephenie191 said:


> eh?
> 
> Do you have two accounts?


Oh, please... do read the post first:bash:


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

Paulusworm said:


> Not aimed at anyone in particular and I apologise if I missed your post.
> There are too many people on here passing judgement without having all of the facts in front of them. As a scientist you will know that you need to have all of the facts in front of you before you can come to your conclusion. These experiments are what produces the norm. The norm is decided upon by scientific experimentation and observation. Science evolves through open-mindedness. *People blindly following the norm will not allow potentially better husbandry techniques to be developed*.
> 
> If you are a zoology graduate you will know this already. :bash: right back at ya :Na_Na_Na_Na:.


Good point. My concern is that I don't find the enclosure suitable for a Russian tort. With or without the other species.


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## Mirf (May 22, 2008)

paulab said:


> I think you just like causing trouble. Its seem you have already disscused this with no pics last time either. Won't coment about the size until i see. Hope for your sake they all look happy and well :Na_Na_Na_Na:.


When was that??


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## imitebmike (Jun 22, 2008)

Mirf said:


> When was that??


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/307918-blue-tongue-skink.html


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## SandiskReptiles (May 13, 2009)

im wanting to see photographs of the enclosure and the different species interacting without any signs of injury, sickness, illness etc.


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## retri (Mar 5, 2008)

I have a masters in Dance and Performance, does that qualify me to comment?


I am a MASTER OF DANCE!:whistling2:


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## imitebmike (Jun 22, 2008)

retri said:


> I have a masters in Dance and Performance, does that qualify me to comment?
> 
> 
> I am a MASTER OF DANCE!:whistling2:


Are you gonna put your point acorss in the form of interpretive dance? :gasp:


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## Mirf (May 22, 2008)

imitebmike said:


> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/307918-blue-tongue-skink.html


Ah okay, I thought you were referring to an old post. As previously mentioned, the op doesn't have the ability to take pics until tonight. Maybe everyone should put down their pitch forks, refrain from lighting their flaming torches, ask the bandwaggon to come back in an hour or so and wait for the pics?: victory:


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## Paulusworm (Jan 26, 2009)

retri said:


> I have a masters in Dance and Performance, does that qualify me to comment?
> 
> 
> I am a MASTER OF DANCE!:whistling2:


No. Not because of any qualifications but because you are you :lol2:.


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## retri (Mar 5, 2008)

How many Goats does it take to screw in a light bulb?





















































It doesnt matter how many goats you have, how are they going to fit a light bulb with no hands?


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## Paulusworm (Jan 26, 2009)

imitebmike said:


> Are you gonna put your point acorss in the form of interpretive dance? :gasp:


You come out in a leotard Retri and I'm calling the police :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## retri (Mar 5, 2008)

Paulusworm said:


> You come out in a leotard Retri and I'm calling the police :Na_Na_Na_Na:


How do you know Im not already wearing one? :whistling2:


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

freekygeeky said:


> if you dont have the right degree you are usless
> like me.


lmao well that's me well and truly stuffed as anything I have is would be classed as well past it's 'sellbydate' and any bits of paper useful only for wiping as opposed to smacking people over the head :lol2:



retri said:


> I have a masters in Dance and Performance, does that qualify me to comment?
> 
> 
> I am a MASTER OF DANCE!:whistling2:


:lol2: ahh but darlink can you shuffle the desert sand whilst whistling dixie and sweeping the floor with a sat-upon broom


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## sarahking20 (Apr 12, 2008)

Antw23uk said:


> Sorry to interrupt but have i missed the pics on this thread or just wasted my time scrolling through nine pages?


this made me :lol2:!!

where did you find the other 3 pages? im only on 6 atm and i've run out...


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## James D (Nov 17, 2008)

Paulusworm said:


> Not aimed at anyone in particular and I apologise if I missed your post.
> There are too many people on here passing judgement without having all of the facts in front of them. *As a scientist you will know that you need to have all of the facts in front of you before you can come to your conclusion.* These experiments are what produces the norm. The norm is decided upon by scientific experimentation and observation. Science evolves through open-mindedness. People blindly following the norm will not allow potentially better husbandry techniques to be developed.
> 
> If you are a zoology graduate you will know this already. :bash: right back at ya :Na_Na_Na_Na:.


That was exactly my point.
There appeared to be very little *fact* posted, and yet it was said that is was working and the inhabitants were thriving.
I feel that my questions still stand....
How were stress levels measured?
How do you distinguish between a 'thriving' captive reptile and one that is just doing 'ok'?

I feel that there are too many unanswered questions left to draw any kind of conclusions from this. When the results are published, I'd love to have a read of them and see what conclusions have been drawn from it.

Also, while I agree that 'blindly following the norm' is not good for the hobby, in my opinion putting 5 lizards of that size in a viv that small shouldn't be acceptable simply because it is part of an experiment......


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

retri said:


> How do you know Im not already wearing one? :whistling2:


ooo leotards ........... come on then where's the pics


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Paulusworm said:


> YES!!! At last. Somebodywho IS qualified to comment. :welcome:. The whole experiment sounds like an interesting concept. Very interested in seeing the pics when they are posted and the final outcome.
> 
> Scarlett Rain: I've just completed my undergraduate forensic entomology research project and was getting very similar responses to those which you are receiving. Trust me mate, there is nothing like the feeling of getting the results to back up your theory and say "See, I told you". Hang in there mate : victory:





James D said:


> Why are we not qualified to comment?
> Do you have to have a certain level of education to give an opinion on something?
> 
> And for the record, I too have a zoology degree so hopefully my comments can retain their validity :bash:





Paulusworm said:


> Not aimed at anyone in particular and I apologise if I missed your post.
> There are too many people on here passing judgement without having all of the facts in front of them. As a scientist you will know that you need to have all of the facts in front of you before you can come to your conclusion. These experiments are what produces the norm. The norm is decided upon by scientific experimentation and observation. Science evolves through open-mindedness. People blindly following the norm will not allow potentially better husbandry techniques to be developed.
> 
> If you are a zoology graduate you will know this already. :bash: right back at ya :Na_Na_Na_Na:.



In my naivety i thought this thread was over when the owner of the viv promised to show us his findings, but then these comments simply drew me back in.

Firstly, you do not require a degree to comment meaningfully on a subject based on your own experiences. That point aside, this is an open forum, where discussion is the object.

If degrees WERE needed to comment, I suspect that my B.Sc, M.Sc and Ph.D would allow me in.

What is also clear from your points Paul, is that you don't appear to realsie that this is NOT an experiment. Where are the controls? There is no testable hyposthesis, we don't even know what form the "documented evidence" takes.

As I have said, their are too many flaws in what has be suugested as reasoning to go into each one, but I will be in a much better position to do this when I have read the article.
I would urge people not simply to accept something, because it is written as a mock experiment.

Andy


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## imitebmike (Jun 22, 2008)

SleepyD said:


> ooo leotards ........... come on then where's the pics


Or at least a video of your answer via the medium that is dance :2thumb:


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

so in summary

1. this seems to be a mixed species tank with no specific or proven scientific module and no proof it is in anyway viably experimental at the scientific control level suggested 

2. we are still to see photographs to judge the size dimensions but we are in the main agreed it seems very small

3. there has been some mildly humerous suggestions about who or who may not be qualified to comment

4. Retri is still to get his kit off and dance

did I miss anything out


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

sparkle said:


> so in summary
> 
> 1. this seems to be a mixed species tank with no specific or proven scientific module and no proof it is in anyway viably experimental at the scientific control level suggested
> 
> ...



Nope, thats the long and the short of it...


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Nope, thats the long and the short of it...


 PHEW!!!! I got something right for once:gasp:


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

IF pics are ever posted, why do i get the feeling it will make little difference?:whistling2:

I for one would love to see this skink, cuddling up to the tort


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## mrcarlxx (May 1, 2009)

lol, why the debate?...he/she can put what ever they like in their viv :2thumb:

however i think it is fine, but i dont know anything about the animals.


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## mandi1234 (Mar 13, 2009)

:2thumb:


Jonny357 said:


> jesus christ, everyones an expert on this forum........
> 
> at the end of the day, people can rant and shout and tug their hair and jump up and down
> 
> ...


:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::banghead::banghead::lol2::lol2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## Paulusworm (Jan 26, 2009)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Firstly, you do not require a degree to comment meaningfully on a subject based on your own experiences. That point aside, this is an open forum, where discussion is the object.
> 
> If degrees WERE needed to comment, I suspect that my B.Sc, M.Sc and Ph.D would allow me in.


Qualification as in it is their experiment. We are not qualified to comment on an incomplete experiment as outsiders looking in. Once the experiment has run its course, been written up and posters have thoroughly read the copy that is in front of them, only then would it be valid to comment.



GlasgowGecko said:


> What is also clear from your points Paul, is that you don't appear to realsie that this is NOT an experiment. Where are the controls? There is no testable hyposthesis, we don't even know what form the "documented evidence" takes.


I believe that StrictlyScales stated that it was part of a Masters thesis unless I misread that. As for the controls, etc. I cannot and will not comment on that because I don't have a copy of the document.


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

mrcarlxx said:


> lol, why the debate?...he/she can put what ever they like in their viv :2thumb:
> 
> however *i think it is fine, but i dont know anything about the animals.[/*quote]
> 
> ...


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## Paulusworm (Jan 26, 2009)

retri said:


> How do you know Im not already wearing one? :whistling2:


Must......not........allow..........image.........into..........mind.


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

Paulusworm said:


> Must......not........allow..........image.........into..........mind.


to late :lol2:


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Paulusworm said:


> Qualification as in it is their experiment. We are not qualified to comment on an incomplete experiment as outsiders looking in. Once the experiment has run its course, been written up and posters have thoroughly read the copy that is in front of them, only then would it be valid to comment.


This is really not the case, everybody is qualified to question experimental design, regardless of the stage the experiment is at. It is fundemental to scientific thinking and progress. Unfortunately this is not an experiment, for the reasons I have stated, and countless others.



Paulusworm said:


> I believe that StrictlyScales stated that it was part of a Masters thesis unless I misread that. As for the controls, etc. I cannot and will not comment on that because I don't have a copy of the document.


~You did mis-read i'm afraid, his statement referring to the masters was suitably vague, but he went on to say he didn't do the masters.

Andy


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## chris83 (Mar 28, 2009)

I can change an alternator.....


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## James D (Nov 17, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Firstly, you do not require a degree to comment meaningfully on a subject based on your own experiences. That point aside, this is an open forum, where discussion is the object.


Andy, 
I hope that my post didn't make it seem as though that is what I was suggesting. I completely agree with you on this and that was the point I was trying to get across.
I only mentioned my degree as that is what appeared to make strictly_scales 'qualified' to comment...


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

going on this lodgic I can put a burm in my 4ft viv if i chuck a few shelfs up to make use of the magic 3d floor space rule 

I would not dream of it tho I'm not the kind of person who would do experiments on his pets


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*omg look how many pages since i left :S damn you guys get all heated about this..ok well il take photos but if you all end up covering the same ground im just gona leave this room cause i really dont care what any of you think to be honest. That may sound harsh but while im here arguing my case and my boyfriends these said animals are waiting for their dinner. 

Il brb with photos.

cheers, Scarlet Rain.*


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## Paulusworm (Jan 26, 2009)

GlasgowGecko said:


> ~You did mis-read i'm afraid, his statement referring to the masters was suitably vague, but he went on to say he didn't do the masters.


Ah. That will be the bit I misread then.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

James D said:


> Andy,
> I hope that my post didn't make it seem as though that is what I was suggesting. I completely agree with you on this and that was the point I was trying to get across.
> I only mentioned my degree as that is what appeared to make strictly_scales 'qualified' to comment...


Certainly not James, you were quoted simply for continuity with regards to my train of thought. I, like you, was a little shocked at the initial comment (which has now been revoked i think), which is why I also put my qualifications down. I honestly don't think that it makes me more or less qualified or capable of an opinion than others, although it does allow me to comment knowledgeably on questions of actual science.

Regards,
Andy


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## strictly_scales (Sep 10, 2008)

The pictures are on their way...

The Viv was to be part of a master's study, which is currently on hold due to other focuses.

A degree isn't everything, but it helps gain an educated understanding of behaviour, evolutionary history, taxonomy and various other areas of Scientific Interest.

Finally, I will finish the write-up; it will take a while, it will be comprehensive and it will be PM'd to everyone interested and relevant for critical analysis. 

I'm sick of this relentless head-banging now, thanks for the beneficial comments, please be aware that it will take me at least 2 weeks to produce the Scientific evidence for those who are interested.

For those who are nothing but negative; just relax a little- none of us know everything, and there is far too much left unknown. I see a great many mistakes in Reptile Care from the nature of my job; I remedy them. 

Finally, luck was not involved with the creation of this community; reptiles do not fluorish with luck. Blood, sweat and tears; long nights and even longer days; trawling through book after book after book and a willingness to experiment is what makes reptiles fluorish, and what furthers our understanding of them in captivity...


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## Paulusworm (Jan 26, 2009)

chris83 said:


> I can change an alternator.....


You're a better man than me then. :no1:


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## blackcat38 (May 31, 2008)

I know the photos are on there way but the description of the viv matches the lizard community pic in strictly-scale's album. Is this the viv everyone is talking about?:gasp:


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> *omg look how many pages since i left :S damn you guys get all heated about this..ok well il take photos but if you all end up covering the same ground im just gona leave this room cause i really dont care what any of you think to be honest. That may sound harsh but while im here arguing my case and my boyfriends these said animals are waiting for their dinner. *
> 
> *Il brb with photos.*
> 
> *cheers, Scarlet Rain.*


 
im sorry but you have to expect questions and probing if you place a thread like this if that makes you feel you "want to leave the room" because the questions seem to you pedantic, sardonic or uncomfortable then what is the point.. deal with these emotions intelligently place your instinct to react by waltzing off to the side and continue with the debate..

Please stay and argue your case with facts, proof and information.. I am genuinely interested... I do believe the vivarium size is way to small and some of the points you have made are very shakey but I want to learn WHy you are stating what you are and see proof of what infromation you have given so far...

Also it would be helpful if you were willing to accept on some points you could possibly be mistaken.. that way we dont have a bunch of people arguiing incessantly on who is 100% right.. lets try to see options and ideas from BOTH sides of the debate .. then instead we can have a genuine interesting conversation about size issues, scientific experiments etc etc.. also points such as whether reptiles TRULY can understand they have seperate and terratorial spaces as you suggest.. and process in their brains they must stay away from one anothers hides as you suggest in such a small tank space... etc etc



:2thumb:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Incidentally, I keep a _T. gigas_ in a 48X18X18 viv - and he looks a bit cramped in there; we're planning on upgrading his viv to a larger one. Our _gigas_ is about eighteen to twenty inches in length now and is missing a substantial amount of his tail (injury prior to our getting him).

We also have a 48" X 36" X 30" vivarium in our front room housing precisely three medium-sized lizards (_acanthurus_ monitors). We may well split the group and move one into the adjacent 36" X 36" X 30" vivarium to ensure that, as adults, they have sufficient space. 

Our largest vivarium is a 84" X 36" X 30" ... and I wouldn't try the given experiment with the given species in that one, either. Regardless of the fact that it has multiple levels, tunnels, shelves and so on... it is an enclosure for a single lizard.


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*Uploading, Give me ten mins.*​


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## kevlar (Jan 7, 2007)

i have looked thru this and surley your just on a wind up??????


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## blackcat38 (May 31, 2008)

everyones waiting for photos but has anyone thought to just checked strictly scale's album? There is a photo there of a lizard viv that matches the description in the first post


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*Anyone any good at sexing Pink tongues? I have a few photos I just took which im going to upload when photobuecket has finished with the last lot.*

*Not sure if "Dave" is actually a female...*​


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

blackcat38 said:


> everyones waiting for photos but has anyone thought to just checked strictly scale's album? There is a photo there of a lizard viv that matches the description in the first post


It would be very interesting if that is the tank that is being spoken about, as although it is a good looking tank, the increase in usable surface area argument begins to look shakier.

Andy


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## strictly_scales (Sep 10, 2008)

That is the Viv, albeit a very old photograph. To be fair, you can't see much of anything from that photograph. I'll have to dig out the old blue-prints to demonstrate the increased floor area.


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## blackcat38 (May 31, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> It would be very interesting if that is the tank that is being spoken about, as although it is a good looking tank, the increase in usable surface area argument begins to look shakier.
> 
> Andy


I don't keep lizards but do keep torts, if this IS the viv then IMO this is not ideal for a tort by its self let alone in a group. but we'll wait and see :whistling2:


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

strictly_scales said:


> That is the Viv, albeit a very old photograph. To be fair, you can't see much of anything from that photograph. I'll have to dig out the old blue-prints to demonstrate the increased floor area.


Pics not up


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

reptile_man_08 said:


> Pics not up


There is a single picture in an album on his profile page.

Andy


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## blackcat38 (May 31, 2008)

reptile_man_08 said:


> Pics not up


 Its in his album on his profile


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

More uploading...Second lot are more clearer please be patient!!!










Once again - Second lot show hides and feeding etc..


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*These were the first shots, the second lot are more detailed so bear with me. *​


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## SandiskReptiles (May 13, 2009)

all i see is 2 bearded dragons and another lizard under a log. No tortoise etc.


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## jahred (Mar 5, 2009)

Its either hiding or wearing its invisibility cloak. :lol2:


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## blackcat38 (May 31, 2008)

strictly_scales said:


> That is the Viv, albeit a very old photograph. To be fair, you can't see much of anything from that photograph. I'll have to dig out the old blue-prints to demonstrate the increased floor area.


Can I ask if the tort is a hatchling or adult please? You say you've tried to increase the floor space with different levels, but how is a tortoise suppose to utilise that? Also (from the pic in the album on his profile) the cave bit where the lizards head is sticking out- Can the tortoise get through there? There just doesn't ssem to be any room for a tort, or is that a pic before the tort was added as I can't see it in the pic?


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

SandiskReptiles said:


> all i see is 2 bearded dragons and another lizard under a log. No tortoise etc.



Rofl...Because Im still uploading...


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## SandiskReptiles (May 13, 2009)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> Rofl...Because Im still uploading...


Standby until further notice - hopefully more photos.


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## laura-jayne (Feb 15, 2009)

sparkle said:


> im sorry but you have to expect questions and probing if you place a thread like this if that makes you feel you "want to leave the room" because the questions seem to you pedantic, sardonic or uncomfortable then what is the point.. deal with these emotions intelligently place your instinct to react by waltzing off to the side and continue with the debate..
> 
> Please stay and argue your case with facts, proof and information.. I am genuinely interested... I do believe the vivarium size is way to small and some of the points you have made are very shakey but I want to learn WHy you are stating what you are and see proof of what infromation you have given so far...
> 
> ...


Its nice to see somone with a open mind and willing to read both sides. Its rare in here to not be shot down straight away. Im also sat on the bench and would like to know more. :2thumb:


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## wolves121121 (Mar 27, 2008)

i hope the next lot of pics are better as i cant see where all the extra space is with the different levels


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*
Tortoise is under here ^^^^ **Hes an adult btw hes buried so u wont see him and I didnt want to disturb him*...


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## crazysnakedude (Jul 1, 2005)

i didnt want get evolved last night.....and stil dont really but i do wana say the viv set up looks awsom. really really nice


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

All I can say is that the set up is in no way adequate for an adult Russian. It should be outside, and if it has to be inside, it needs to be so much bigger and so much deeper.


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)




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## SandiskReptiles (May 13, 2009)

sparkle said:


> im sorry but you have to expect questions and probing if you place a thread like this if that makes you feel you "want to leave the room" because the questions seem to you pedantic, sardonic or uncomfortable then what is the point.. deal with these emotions intelligently place your instinct to react by waltzing off to the side and continue with the debate..
> 
> Please stay and argue your case with facts, proof and information.. I am genuinely interested... I do believe the vivarium size is way to small and some of the points you have made are very shakey but I want to learn WHy you are stating what you are and see proof of what infromation you have given so far...
> 
> ...


good post! i must admit though, scarlet must of expected these questions to crop up. Posting something like this on RFUK will rise suspicions and maybe many debates.


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

LiamRatSnake said:


> All I can say is that the set up is in no way adequate for an adult Russian. It should be outside, and if it has to be inside, it needs to be so much bigger and so much deeper.


*Its deep enough for him, thats the reason you can't see him cause he doesnt come out at this time so he is in the cave the plated also inhabits and he is deeply buried. Hes happy when hes out.*


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## SandiskReptiles (May 13, 2009)

well the viv looks wonderful! but no where near adequate for a russian! just about does the beardies let alone russian, and so on.

It looks fantastic! but please please upgrade the size. they will look happier in a bigger viv.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> *Its deep enough for him, thats the reason you can't see him cause he doesnt come out at this time so he is in the cave the plated also inhabits and he is deeply buried. Hes happy when hes out.*


I disagree. 5 inch substrate is not deep enough for an adult Russian. They need to dig tunnels, not just cover themselves.


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## Juzza12 (Jun 12, 2008)

I really don't know enough about the species involved to comment on the mixing. I do however stand by my original comment now I've seen the pics, that viv is too small. I was expecting a lot more in that viv, shelves or raised platforms. I don't see how you've utilised the space in that viv beyond what most of us do. I've seen pictures of 4x2x2 vivs with a single beardie that have far more levels and platforms than that using wooden shelving or polystyrene backgrounds


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> *Its deep enough for him, thats the reason you can't see him cause he doesnt come out at this time so he is in the cave the plated also inhabits and he is deeply buried. Hes happy when hes out.*


And I meant outside as in outdoors. 4 foot is simply not big enough for a Russian.


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## SandiskReptiles (May 13, 2009)

LiamRatSnake said:


> I disagree. 5 inch substrate is not deep enough for an adult Russian. They need to dig tunnels, not just cover themselves.


True, LiamRatSnake has a good point, an adult russian does not just cover herself she will dig tunnels and tunnels until her hearts content.

As for the viv size it is very small for all those species - i would say something like a 6ft! OR bigger.


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## paulab (Mar 26, 2009)

It is a very nice looking set up but does look too small. Do they get to come out every day and run around? They look in good health what i can see.


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

SandiskReptiles said:


> good post! i must admit though, scarlet must of expected these questions to crop up. Posting something like this on RFUK will rise suspicions and maybe many debates.


*Oh yeah I know that really , It was a couple of female members last night who were being quite nasty and horrid and had no valid arguments and so that persuaded me and my boyfriend to set up a thread about this viv.

I have just seperated my pink tongued skink and my green iguana form their shared viv, the reason being is that the iggy was sold and the viv is going to be used for another animal now that would not be compatible with the pink tongued. The iggy however was a juvenile- obviously if we had of kept him they would of eventually been seperated due to the adult size of an iguana - he would of also out grown the viv which was a 3x3x2.

But yeah those 2 were quite happy, the skink being nocturnal and the iggy Diurnal. The skink also enjoyed basking in the day time which is weird - he never did that when he was along with no UV so I have learnt alot from that set up also - about pink tongues and that even though they are nocturnal, still appreciate a day time bask 

This experiment is fantastic im learning so much about these animals behaviours and habits.

I could go on for hours about what I have witnessed but I dont really have time lol
*


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

paulab said:


> It is a very nice looking set up but does look too small. Do they get to come out every day and run around? They look in good health what i can see.



Yeah all come out. The Russian is absolutly fine, he is one of the longest residents, eats like a trooper and buggers off to his cave at certain times of the day, hes also a great climber believe it or not...


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## linda.t (Sep 28, 2007)

oh well each to there own 
i just know i wouldn't be able to sleep at nite
if i put that many lizards in a viv that size
by hatchling red foot as more floor space.


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## SandiskReptiles (May 13, 2009)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> *Oh yeah I know that really , It was a couple of female members last night who were being quite nasty and horrid and had no valid arguments that persuaded me and my boyfriend to set up a thread about this viv.
> 
> I have just seperated my pink tongued skink and my green iguana form their shared viv, the reason being is that the iggy was sold and the viv is going to be used for another animal now that would not be compatible with the pink tongued. The iggy however was a juvenile- obviously if we had of kept him they would of eventually been seperated due to the adult size of an iguana - he would of also out grown the viv which was a 3x3x2.
> 
> ...


 you obviously know what your doing, and you have one heck of a setup! but you either need to take a few of those reptiles out and setup a seperate enclosure OR maybe try upgrading your viv size?

I am not having a go, and im definitely not going to do that either! I envy you for taking a risk in mixing species! i would love a communal viv, but dont have the guts to do it incase of's. You have some lovely reptiles im just nagging about your space is all!


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

IT'S WAY TOO SMALL!

The two Bd's it looks fine for.

However, it's not enough space for them all!


AS EVERYONE HAS SAID. 

I geuss you chose to ignore that though


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

SandiskReptiles said:


> you obviously know what your doing, and you have one heck of a setup! but you either need to take a few of those reptiles out and setup a seperate enclosure OR maybe try upgrading your viv size?
> 
> I am not having a go, and im definitely not going to do that either! I envy you for taking a risk in mixing species! i would love a communal viv, but dont have the guts to do it incase of's. You have some lovely reptiles im just nagging about your space is all!


Thank you, all constructive critiscism is welcomed.


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

stephenie191 said:


> IT'S WAY TOO SMALL!
> 
> The two Bd's it looks fine for.
> 
> ...


Nope just you. Sorry but you are a long way past irritating now.


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## Darlo_Gal (Sep 24, 2008)

I believe a lot of hard work has gone into this or it wouldn't have lasted for two years, like some of the others have said it does look good and it must be interesting. Myself personally? I wouldn't have the guts to do it and do believe a bigger space would be beneficial however nobody can make your choices.


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## jahred (Mar 5, 2009)

When my two Horsfields come in, they have an 8 foot by 4 foot by 2 foot enclosure (with substrate to a depth of a foot). 

However, they are 4" big each and even that at times I feel isn't enough. So, a 4 foot Viv for an Adult Tortoise is way too small.


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> Nope just you. Sorry but you are a long way past irritating now.


Had to :lol2: at that...
Looks good, don't know anything about the tortoise though.


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## miss_rawr (Mar 18, 2009)

the viv is too small for all those animals and no way adequate for an adult russian.


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*Right thankyou everyone who has looked and responded.

As the space is the main issue then I guess we will re look into it over the next few months and as our tegu has been sold we will have more space (he is currently living in an open pit of 7x6x5 so we can use that space).


Thankyou again. Im off to feed stuffs, cya *


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## SandiskReptiles (May 13, 2009)

jahred said:


> When my two Horsfields come in, they have an 8 foot by 4 foot by 2 foot enclosure (with substrate to a depth of a foot).
> 
> However, they are 4" big each and even that at times I feel isn't enough. So, a 4 foot Viv for an Adult Tortoise is way too small.



Hi, an 8ft for a pair of 4 inch horsefields is really over doing it.

A pair of adults alone only require a minimum of 6ft to live comfortably.

Admittedly a 4ft viv is small for one adult horsefield but an extra 2ft would be just fine for the horsefield.


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## SandiskReptiles (May 13, 2009)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> *Right thankyou everyone who has looked and responded.
> 
> As the space is the main issue then I guess we will re look into it over the next few months and as our tegu has been sold we will have more space (he is currently living in an open pit of 7x6x5 so we can use that space).
> 
> ...


If you use the 7x6x5 - that would be perfect for them all.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

strictly_scales said:


> Good afternoon,
> 
> I am Strictly_Scales- this community is mine; I wrote the original article, built and designed the Vivarium myself, to the best of my ability, after months of planning and designing.
> 
> ...


2.the state of being deluded.3.a false belief or opinion: _delusions of grandeur. _4._Psychiatry_. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: _a paranoid delusion. _



Scarlet_Rain said:


> More uploading...Second lot are more clearer please be patient!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would be laughing at how embarrassingly bizarre all of this is, if I wasn't so sorry for the animals in this situation.

I don't know quite why you persist in posting about it. There is nothing defensible about placing this many animals, of this size, in an environment so limited in terms of space and resources and of those species.

Animals in our hands deserve the best we can offer them, regardless of how you chaps view it (see the definition of delusional above.) this is not the best or anything close to what you could do for any of the individuals concerned.

You are selfish and labouring under the misapprehension that you are a functional scientist. A degree and some private experience doesn't grant you a professional reputation, your actions and work do (or don't.)

There is no argument to be held, the scenario being indulged here is plainly, ridiculous.


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## Paulusworm (Jan 26, 2009)

Can't remember who said they had the blueprints which got the floorspace point across better but can you scan and post them? What I've read and what I'm seeing don't add up. It is a very nice viv but all I see is a nice viv with lots of hides and things to climb on. I don't keep any of the species present and, as such, can't comment on the viv size or health of the animals. Blueprints would be a help though : victory:


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## Darlo_Gal (Sep 24, 2008)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> *Right thankyou everyone who has looked and responded.*
> 
> *As the space is the main issue then I guess we will re look into it over the next few months and as our tegu has been sold we will have more space (he is currently living in an open pit of 7x6x5 so we can use that space).*
> 
> ...


If you move them into the 7x6x5 then that would be much more ample, with that much space it could look amazing!


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## Pendragon (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm more dissapointed in the fact that so many people have entertained this idiot for so long on this topic. 

A *delusion* is commonly defined as a fixed false belief and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception. In psychiatry, the definition is necessarily more precise and implies that the belief is pathological (the result of an illness or illness process). As a pathology it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information or certain effects of perception which would more properly be termed an apperception or illusion.
Delusions typically occur in the context of neurological or mental illness, although they are not tied to any particular disease and have been found to occur in the context of many pathological states (both physical and mental). However, they are of particular diagnostic importance in psychotic disorders and particularly in schizophrenia, paraphrenia and mania in episodes of bipolar disorder

Psychiatric definition

Although non-specific concepts of madness have been around for several thousand years, the psychiatrist and philosopher Karl Jaspers was the first to define the three main criteria for a belief to be considered delusional in his book _General Psychopathology_. These criteria are:

certainty (held with absolute conviction)
incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)
These criteria still continue in modern psychiatric diagnosis. In the most recent Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, a delusion is defined as:
A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture.There is some controversy over this definition, as 'despite what almost everybody else believes' implies that a person who believes something most others do not is a candidate for delusional thought. Furthermore, it is ironic that, whilst the above three criteria are usually attributed to Jaspers, he himself described them as only 'vague' and merely 'external' (General Psychopathology, Volume 1, p. 95). He also wrote that, since the genuine or 'internal' 'criteria for delusion proper lie in the _primary experience of delusion_ and in _the change of the personality_ [and _not_ in the above three loosely descriptive criteria], we can see that a delusion may be correct in content without ceasing to be a delusion, for instance - that there is a world-war.' (General Psychopathology, Volume 1, p. 106).


This sums up the O/P, I would suggest we all stop waisting our time on this moron, if we are lucky they will leave the forum, : victory:


Jay


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i've kept things together.... 

... it all depends... it's nice indeed if you can pull it off effectively.

... most of mine were temporary affairs though... i often caught things, kept them together in a terrarium and tinkered with things for a while and then let the things go after a while as i moved on to other things...

...


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## Juzza12 (Jun 12, 2008)

Saedcantas said:


> 2.the state of being deluded.3.a false belief or opinion: _delusions of grandeur. _4._Psychiatry_. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: _a paranoid delusion. _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lady i applaud you!


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## Jonny357 (Nov 8, 2008)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> Nope just you. Sorry but you are a long way past irritating now.



hahah pwned

awesome


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

I second what the majority have said, that the space is way too small and conditions far from perfect. Yes, the inside of the viv looks nice, but that is not the issue here. "*Firstly, I am not just some forum obsessed noob here- I am a qualified Zoologist, a Reptile and Aquatics Trader and a qualified lecturer in Animal Care". *Anyone can call themselves an expert, but I don't believe anyone is, the minute you stop learning and taking on board other peoples opinions and researching what they have to say because you are too set in you own beliefs, makes you arrogant and complacent, and unwilling to change.

I have seen community vivaria, and ones that work well, but size of vivarium and the health and mental wellbeing of the animals takes priority, which is why they work. Your viv, on the whole, makes no sense in animal welfare issues what-so-ever.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

It doesn't matter how happy your tortoise seems, it is simply inadequate. There is not enough space for it. There isn't a deep enough substrate for it. The UV is way to far away for it to be effective and I beleive it's basking spot will be too cool judging the distance, and a heat mat will not make up for this. Have you treated each animal for parasites? How will you stop the tortoise eating the other animal's excrement and ingesting such high protein and possibly picking up all sorts or parasites, bacterium and disease.


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## Luke T (Apr 13, 2009)

i left the thread for a while and theres like 200 posts. joy!

anyways, now youve put pictures up, as every one else has said. its simply to small, its not only cruel to keep all those reptiles in there, but also irrisponsible.

however us moaning at you isnt going to change your attitude towards keeping pets. so hey ho .... but u could utilize the space more.


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## mrcarlxx (May 1, 2009)

:lol2: it seems like every member on the site has comented on this thread,...really though i dont see the problem, is there enough room to fit my kids in as well? :whistling2: :lol2:


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> *Its deep enough for him, thats the reason you can't see him cause he doesnt come out at this time so he is in the cave the plated also inhabits and he is deeply buried. Hes happy when hes out.*


 
How do you define happy.. what is the definition of a happy reptile when out of its hide.. Their brain does not have the concept of happiness I would have thought then to measure happiness would have been impossible?


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## Patthecat12 (Mar 28, 2008)

I personally think it looks alright except the fact it looks a bit small for the number of Reps in it, I thought it was going to be a whole room dedicated to them not just a viv...
Here is my viv for a single CWD









I am still trying to decorate it, and im five years in :lol2:


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

pfft still think its too small, and your magical 3d space is in my opnion pretty rubbish, not as magical as i expected.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

freekygeeky said:


> pfft still think its too small, and your magical 3d space is in my opnion pretty rubbish, not as magical as i expected.


I thought perhaps she knew a certain Time Lord.. seems we were mistaken?

My concern is people are willing to take advice from this forumite about husbandry on one of the reptile show threads...page 18.. it would be interesting if this person DID attend the show if their ideas really help up to direct face to face conversational scrutiny
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/reptile-shows-breeder-meetings/288909-south-west-reptile-show-18.html


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

sparkle said:


> I thought perhaps she knew a certain Time Lord.. seems we were mistaken?


lol and the possible tardis, pfft cant see that either.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

freekygeeky said:


> lol and the possible tardis, pfft cant see that either.


 
exterminate exterminate community vivarium.. all species must live in peace..


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## wacky69 (Apr 8, 2008)

when the OP said 3d i was expecting to see all mannor of levels made with wood to use the whole hight of the viv to their reps advantage but all i see is a little platform made with garden edging which no way makes use of the full hight. That size viv would be great for the 3 beardies alone not for the added extras you have decided to put in just to see if it works. 


I have 5 leos in a 4x2x2 viv and i think thats too small for them so im going to ad another level for them to maximise the hight of the viv! and they are tiny compared to what you have in urs


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

wacky69 said:


> when the OP said 3d i was expecting to see all mannor of levels made with wood to use the whole hight of the viv to their reps advantage but all i see is a little platform made with garden edging which no way makes use of the full hight. That size viv would be great for the 3 beardies alone not for the added extras you have decided to put in just to see if it works.
> 
> 
> I have 5 leos in a 4x2x2 viv and i think thats too small for them so im going to ad another level for them to maximise the hight of the viv! and they are tiny compared to what you have in urs


I have 2 in the same size and am just comfortable with it. Why try to see how many animals you can get in one SMALL space? Pointless and I would go as far as saying it's cruel, especially for the tortoise. My two tiny babies have more space than that.


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## ShibbyMan666 (Feb 23, 2009)

I've been watching this thread for quite some time now. I tried so hard to keep quiet and not air views but it is a little tedious reading this now lol so need to rant!  

First of all I completely disagree with keeping those in such a small space. I even disagree with mixing of the species but if it works it works, if it doesn't innocent animals are hurt for no reason. From what I can see everyone is busy venting their outrage or discust or both at the O/P for what they have done. I was really hoping someone else would say this but sadly nobody has.

It doesn't matter how much both sides tell each other they are wrong it's going to get nobody anywhere. They certainly aren't going to take any advice/warnings or personal insults on board so why waste your time trying to convince them otherwise. I personally completely agree with most that are against it, but whats the point in saying anything? You see so many similar posts on this forum. Person gets hit by the mob, takes nothing on board and continues his merry little adventures like nothing happened, while many stressed out forum citizens end up feeling very bad for the poor animals.

People should never put their own desires ahead of the animals needs but hey, there's absoloutely nothing we can do. Although out of all the thousands of posts we could make a bloody good short story!  

And remember, disagreeing with scientists is like telling the pope he has it wrong, they will never accept your point of view. If they've done all the research then best to leave 'em to it. The animals may or may not suffer as a result but in the end no amount of shouting, moaning or advice will change their minds. 

Sorry about that it's just so tiring reading these threads again and again, keep up the good fight guys! Eventually maybe someday people will take advice on board!  Good luck to the o/p I hope your animals live long, healthy lives!

P.S. I hope this doesn't upset anyone as it certainly wasn't my intention. It was just painful watching you all fighting a losing battle.


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

ShibbyMan666 said:


> I've been watching this thread for quite some time now. I tried so hard to keep quiet and not air views but it is a little tedious reading this now lol so need to rant!
> 
> First of all I completely disagree with keeping those in such a small space. I even disagree with mixing of the species but if it works it works, if it doesn't innocent animals are hurt for no reason. From what I can see everyone is busy venting their outrage or discust or both at the O/P for what they have done. I was really hoping someone else would say this but sadly nobody has.
> 
> ...


Nice way of wasting your typing energy mate. Peoplell read this then do exactly the same thing tomorrow including me :lol2:


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## ShibbyMan666 (Feb 23, 2009)

ShaneLuvsMonitors said:


> Nice way of wasting your typing energy mate. Peoplell read this then do exactly the same thing tomorrow including me :lol2:


Haha tell me about it!  This is just a few months worth of venting from reading threads like this!  Plus its either write pointless posts on here or mark some essays! Easy choice :lol2:


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## Velosus (Feb 26, 2008)

...read through most of this thread and agree with the majority though. Just my thought, but i deffo think the animals need alot more space, and i would hope that you do move this setup to the bigger viv you may have. 

... on the positive side of things, it does look good though! 

great idea and for the most of it, has turned out quite good. 

now just think what you could do in the bigger viv... all the branches for beardies, a deep substrate for the tort, loads of hides for everyone and another level for the climbers to reach.

anyways... good luck if you do change to the bigger viv.

Ian


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

ShibbyMan666 said:


> Haha tell me about it!  This is just a few months worth of venting from reading threads like this!  Plus its either write pointless posts on here or mark some essays! Easy choice :lol2:


Yup deffinetly mate markings never fun :lol2:


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## blackcat38 (May 31, 2008)

To be honest after seeing the picture I am really let down, I really hoped you’ve prove everyone wrong but you didn’t.
With all the talk about your research and masters thesis I was expecting big things, I have just finished my dissertation for my chemistry maters and that was really hard going- for this to be the foundation of your thesis I was expecting a mini eco system where everything sort of served a purpose, whether it would be source of food or cleaning, as well as being able to studying the behaviour of the animals. And what you’ve posted is a viv that most people have, except yours is cram packed with animals- far too small. If you can get a masters with that effort then I picked the wrong subject!
The standard I was expecting was close to this guy- Arthur Cooke
YouTube - Naturalistic community vivarium
His are like stepping into a forest in you front room 
Oh and it is way too small for the tort alone- I have 5 redfoots ranging from 8cm to 14 cm and there home is an L shaped table that is 23.5 square foot and your viv is 10 square foot, home to 6 animals


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## Mrs Mental (May 5, 2009)

I totally disagree with it from the tortoises point of view for several reasons:

I dont believe tortoises should be kept in vivs.
Heat mats should not be used for tortoises.
The space however you say it, dress it up and even if it has 3 bloody layers or whatever is too small.
Horsfields like to dig and tunnel!!!!
Why is the tortoise inside anyway?
What are the temperatures of the viv?
Whats the tortoises diet?

Surely all these animals have different substrate and temperature and dietary requirements?

Surely all the animals carry different diseases/pathogens or whatever they're called

I would point out that I know absolutely nothing about the other animals.

Also I really do have to say I'm very disappointed now I've seen the pictures - thought I'd reserve judgement until after seeing the pics before I posted - the space is ridiculiously small and the levels are hardly what I was expecting. After reading the way it'd be written up I was expecting some 'wow' factor ummmmmmm I never experienced it! 

Sorry but overall I am not impressed.


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## ooMISSPERFECToo (Jun 17, 2007)

one word... muppet!!!


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## ShibbyMan666 (Feb 23, 2009)

I'm really sorry to post again but I have to! This thread reminds me of Daniel Hannans roasting of Gordon Brown lmao.. RFUK being portrayed by Mr. Hannan 

Daniel Hannan vs. Gordon Brown


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## Pono (Jan 21, 2008)

The magical 3D viv space seems pretty non existant. I dont see the point of putting so many quite large animals in such a small viv. The viv would only really do the two beardies. Let down.

Ed


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

I would like to raise a few points of my own, as a qualified zoologist you should be aware of optimum distance and uv output ? that uv is too far away from the floor to be of any use to the tort......... And what about basking temps , how on earth do you create correct for each species on each level with just 1 bulb ?

aLSO SOMETHING THAT CONCERNS ME WITH COMMUNITY VIVARIA IS CROSS CONTAMINATION (soz caps) one species can carry protozoa, virus' pathogens etc that will have no detrimental affect to its health, how ever if a different species comes in contact with it it may not have the immunity and health problems will ensue, again with your qualifications I wonder how you can justify risking this happening ?

I am genuinely interested in your reply.


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## jahred (Mar 5, 2009)

SandiskReptiles said:


> Hi, an 8ft for a pair of 4 inch horsefields is really over doing it.
> 
> A pair of adults alone only require a minimum of 6ft to live comfortably.
> 
> Admittedly a 4ft viv is small for one adult horsefield but an extra 2ft would be just fine for the horsefield.


No, it really isn't overdoing it. 

Considering you have no issues with the OP's setup; I'm going to politely ignore your Tortoise suggestions.


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

jahred said:


> No, it really isn't overdoing it.
> 
> Considering you have no issues with the OP's setup; I'm going to politely ignore your Tortoise suggestions.


I concur mate considering how much space would actuall be available to what they would get in there natural habitat.


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## Lottie Lou (Feb 2, 2008)

I think its an absolute bloody joke! Communal experiment or not it isnt fair on the animals! If you really knew your stuff you would consider the health and wellbeing of each individual animal. As said before how do you begin to stop cross contamination?! How do you get all the temps correct for the individual? Why havent you got a bulb guard? Your animals look rather pissed off so i think you saying they dont fight is a load of rubbish. I think you want to make out you are some kind of clever man for mixing the poor things. I mean come on, my fecking leopard gecko has nearly the same amount of room. D**k head. Anyway..thats all from me


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

ShaneLuvsMonitors said:


> I concur mate considering how much space would actuall be available to what they would get in there natural habitat.


Ditto....


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

blackcat38 said:


> To be honest after seeing the picture I am really let down, I really hoped you’ve prove everyone wrong but you didn’t.
> With all the talk about your research and masters thesis I was expecting big things, I have just finished my dissertation for my chemistry maters and that was really hard going- for this to be the foundation of your thesis I was expecting a mini eco system where everything sort of served a purpose, whether it would be source of food or cleaning, as well as being able to studying the behaviour of the animals. And what you’ve posted is a viv that most people have, except yours is cram packed with animals- far too small. If you can get a masters with that effort then I picked the wrong subject!
> The standard I was expecting was close to this guy- Arthur Cooke
> YouTube - Naturalistic community vivarium
> ...


THATS THE GUY... arthur cooke i couldnt for the life of me remember his name when i  recalled someone else posting a gorgeous mixed community tank on you tube...

thanks for posting this : victory:


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## ooMISSPERFECToo (Jun 17, 2007)

i know lets put a family of 5 in a studio apartment, and experiment on them! and if they rip each others heads off then oh well...

edit: on second thoughts, put the op in with their OH, and 3 other species of mammal approximately the same size... wolves, lions etc... now THAT would be an interesting experiment, x


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

ooMISSPERFECToo said:


> i know lets put a family of 5 in a studio apartment, and experiment on them! and if they rip each others heads off then oh well...
> 
> edit: on second thoughts, put the op in with their OH, and 3 other species of mammal approximately the same size... wolves, lions etc... now THAT would be an interesting experiment, x



yeah the first is called big brother.


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## Stexual (Mar 11, 2009)

ooMISSPERFECToo said:


> edit: on second thoughts, put the op in with their OH, and 3 other species of mammal approximately the same size... wolves, lions etc... now THAT would be an interesting experiment, x


Well said.

Its all well saying you have the degree and that you right and we're wrong but come on man... think logically for one minute. As Missperfect said how would you like to be locked in a small bedroom and then over the cause of some time you see 4 other mamals thrown in with you... Such as Wolf, Lion, etc.. I think you'll be the first to scream and shout "LET ME OUT" but then someone will come along a let you out....

Now your lizzards, they dont speak our language... I saw your pics and those beardies do not look happy in my eyes and they cant say "Hey let us out".

Ive got a 4ftx2ftx2ft for my baby beardie and even so I think thats too small... I belive if you takeing on pets you need to give them your all. Obviously here your just doing an experiement to see what happens, So what will happen when you wake up to see a vivarium splattered with blood and find a few dead lizzards.... Will you feel guilty and ashamed or just one of these who will say "ahh well".


I think this thread ought to be locked. No matter what we say to the OP they wont change but instead fill us up with more :censor:.


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## Stexual (Mar 11, 2009)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> yeah the first is called big brother.


Atleast they have the choice to leave and go home...

Dose yours?


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## ooMISSPERFECToo (Jun 17, 2007)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> yeah the first is called big brother.


somehow i think that big brother has a hell of alot more room, they also go in there of their own free will and can leave at any point. at what point do any of your reps get that luxury? or is it more of a case of stuff it... if theyre unhappy oh well!

as your OH said in a previous post, the downside is the space! if your funds are low or you just dont have ther space then you shouldnt of got the reps full stop. you are a complete arse, and doing this for your own experiment is selfish


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*Im finished with replies now. I have my argued my case ~I do not wish to cover same ground any longer, every thing I am personally doing is forever evolving, growing and improving and so Im happy.

None of the animals are sick or ever have been in the past 18 months from when this started.

If it wasn't for people experimenting set ups in a safe way we would never have the luxury of displays that work in zoo's.

I no longer wish to discuss this as the people whos opinions really matter are the ones that have seen it in person and the ones who are open minded, of course people have made some good points in this thread which i will take onboard and work on improving.

Thank you, this will be my last reply on this discussion.*


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

I've just got back online and skimmed most the other pages but i have to say, i was expecting a much better vivarium the way you were describing it i was expecting a much more efficient use of the space. I still think it looks way too small and just like a normal vivarium. Also u ranted about lighting and how important it was yet you UVB tub is too far away to be any use for the non climbing tort 

Im also gald that i wasnt the only one thinking there maybe issues with the scientific value of this experiment due to the massive scope for interpretation of any results (why i would be interested in any results or papers) 

just one last note, I am not against mixing if done right. to me this isnt done correctly


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## strictly_scales (Sep 10, 2008)

I've presented my point; many of you will continue to disagree, and I'm sure the finer points of how much space an adult Horsfields Tortoise needs etc cxan be argued until dusk.

I intensely dislike and fully disregard the out-right abuse I have recieved for this post, I simply proposed and coherently explained to you a set-up that I have found to work extremely well. 

Whether you like it or not, this Vivarium has run for 18 months, with no problems at all, and will continue to run for a great many years. You talk of stress, disease transfer and competition; I have explained how these are managed in the environment and still you aren't happy. 

I have provided the images and still you aren't happy.

I have explained the sizing issues of the Viv and how I have compensated for it and you still aren't happy. 

I give up. I have been taken the piss out of and down-right insulted, simply for doing something few of you would attempt and fewer could pull off with the same level of sucess. 

I will produce the full scuientific write up, detailing everything I have observed, recorded and concluded from this experiment; PM me if genuinely interested; if not, go away, I care not for your views and opinions; I care for the well being of my animals, and offer each and every one the full dedicated care it deserves. In this house, nothing suffers.

Good night


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## Stexual (Mar 11, 2009)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> *Im finished with replies now. I have my argued my case ~I do not wish to cover same ground any longer, every thing I am personally doing is forever evolving, growing and improving and so Im happy.
> 
> None of the animals are sick or ever have been in the past 18 months from when this started.
> 
> ...


Then all I can say is Good luck.... not to you... Your reptiles.


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## ooMISSPERFECToo (Jun 17, 2007)

i think someone touched a nerve lol! i am all for mixed vivs, if done properly and that they cater for all the reps needs! i think this just proves that when its done right, it can be brilliant, but if corners are cut... prepare for harsh reality, x


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## Juzza12 (Jun 12, 2008)

strictly_scales said:


> I've presented my point; many of you will continue to disagree, and I'm sure the finer points of how much space an adult Horsfields Tortoise needs etc cxan be argued until dusk.
> 
> I intensely dislike and fully disregard the out-right abuse I have recieved for this post, I simply proposed and coherently explained to you a set-up that I have found to work extremely well.
> 
> ...


You haven't compensated for the viv size though have you. I've seen much better vivs on here that make better use of the space and they only house one or 2 animals. This isn't a scientific experiment at all. You say few us us will mix species succesfully, do you include yourself in that? Because you're not doing it succesfully if you're not providing adequate space for the animals. They have 3ft sq of space each do they, great my beardie has 8 all to itself.


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## jahred (Mar 5, 2009)

strictly_scales said:


> I've presented my point; many of you will continue to disagree, and I'm sure the finer points of how much space an adult Horsfields Tortoise needs etc cxan be argued until dusk.


Not really, its quite simply: Bigger = Better; Lots of depth for burying = Necessity. Also, in the wild, they roam for miles; in your enclosure, it roams 4 feet. I'm suprised you don't see the problem. 


> You talk of stress, disease transfer and competition; I have explained how these are managed in the environment and still you aren't happy.


Actually, you haven't talked about disease transfer. 



> I have provided the images and still you aren't happy.


Because, sadly, its not a very good viv. You could do so much better. 



> will produce the full scuientific write up, detailing everything I have observed, recorded and concluded from this experiment;


Also, you still haven't mentioned on which citerias you will be judging the success of your experiment; the fact they aren't dead? They aren't stressed (and on what grounds you are measuring that), they have yet to bite one another? 

For such a grandoise experiment, you are very relucant to explain how it is judged to be a success. Mere survival could just mean they are hardy animals; not that they are thriving. 



> I care for the well being of my animals, and offer each and every one the full dedicated care it deserves. In this house, nothing suffers.


No, you really don't. Your care of the Tortoise is utterly abysmal; you can't hide that fact by going "oh, its an experiment". Feeding a Tortoise is not good husbandry, that also involves large enclosures, correct substrate, correct lighting, no chance of cross-infection etc, etc. 

My main problem is not the experiment as such; its the fact that currently your set-up is inhumane. If it was an enclosure at least twice the size, you might be onto something; at the moment, you've presented a terrible enclosure with animals that are no doubt stressed (stress does not always manifest as violence; something you have missed). This can be done well, however, you have done it so badly.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

strictly_scales said:


> I care for the well being of my animals, and *offer each and every one the full dedicated care it deserves*. In this house, nothing suffers.
> 
> Good night


I disagree completely. Almost every single person also disagrees. So everyone is wrong? You are actively preventing your tortoise (I can't comment on the others) from having a good life. It is receiving almost no UV light, there is no basking spot for it and no matter how much you protest, their isn't enough space or substrate for it. It's cruelty.


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## Mrs Mental (May 5, 2009)

From the tortoises point of view I would agree that the way you are treating that poor animal is inhumane! :devil:


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## suey (Aug 21, 2008)

I for one appreciate this post :2thumb: I didn't think i had much room for many more reps, but you have proved me wrong.

I could cram a load in together as you seem to have done, or i've now got to thinking, after at least half an hour of reading this post, that i might be better utilising the childrens rooms for more reps and shoving the kids in the cupboard under the stairs....at least they all have the same requirements!


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## wacky69 (Apr 8, 2008)

Personally a mixed viv may work if you are prepared to dedicate a full room as a viv!

Zoo's may mix species but space isnt limited and the reptiles are catered for with regards to space, lighting, heating and there is also plenty of space to avoid any altercation!

From your first post about this 3dimensional viv I was expecting a fantastic viv catering for every animals needs within it which showed planning, fuctionality, temperature control and lighting control, natural habitat for every animal listed.

From your pictures I see a mere 4 x2.5 x2.5 which you have provided a basking spot for beardies using slabs, a cave and some garden edging and also a few branches!

Any1 without planning can achieve a viv set up like this and happily house one reptile in it not many!

I would personally plan again and provide more space and the correct environmental conditions for each rep!

Also stating you have this degree or that degree makes you no more an expert than a newbie to this forum, we all have something to learn and by being a member of this forum you have to be able to accept criticism and you may not agree with all posts but most people come to a happy medium or have facts to back up what they are saying!
Personally from your blunt replies and annoyance at the replies you are recieving it appears you believe because this has worked for 18months it will work forever.
Just because this has worked for the amount of time stated in no wiords means it will work longer, how can any of these reps be happy with the incorrect set up and limited space

Also how many males are housed in your viv?


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

Under the Animal Welfare Act - Updated 2007
You MUST


For a suitable environment (place to live)
For a suitable diet
To exhibit normal behaviour patterns
To be housed with, or apart from, other animals (if applicable)
To be protected from pain, injury, suffering and disease
I'm struggling to believe you are providing any apart from maybe number 2.

1. Clearly not
2. N/A
3. With species from completely different continents? With some animals being larger than others and competing for food? With the tortoise being unable to dig tunnels? Access UV? Access a basking spot?
4. No comment needed, it's obvious.
5. You're not preventing disease, you're encouraging it by having them together. They may well be suffering mentally, I'm willing to put money on the fact that the tortoise is. By mixing all these species you aren't protecting injury, whatsoever.


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## suey (Aug 21, 2008)

Truth is guys, there is nothing wrong with trying these things, as you say, how can we learn otherwise? But you've tried it now, okay, you reckon it's worked, great well done...now please separate them and give them their correct requirements and a decent size space to live


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## jahred (Mar 5, 2009)

Mrs Mental said:


> From the tortoises point of view I would agree that the way you are treating that poor animal is inhumane! :devil:


Agreed, seconded and doubled. 

I mean, if you were serious about this experiment, you wouldn't put in a Tortoise that requires a massive amount of substrate; you would have chosen one such as a Hermans that only requires to bury down. 

So, from a Tortoise viewpoint, its just shockingly bad.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

suey said:


> Truth is guys, there is nothing wrong with trying these things, as you say, how can we learn otherwise? But you've tried it now, okay, you reckon it's worked, great well done...now please separate them and give them their correct requirements and a decent size space to live


There is a problem trying these things when the requirements for individual species aren't even met, never mind combining them.


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Ingenious! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLkMJEAGzPE


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## jahred (Mar 5, 2009)

Also, I take it that the Tortoise isn't hibernated either?


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## sazzle (Jun 3, 2008)

laura-jayne said:


> Ive seen a few comunal vivs. Newquay zoo has some uros with a sking. and a ball python with some day geckos. So im intrested none the less..Where are the pictures? Have you got batteries yet?


when did they get that set up? i lived in newquay for 18 months and on my several visits i never noticed that

i think if it works for you then fair enough... agreed... seems a little small but surely if you were doing something wrong then something would've died by now x


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

jahred said:


> Also, I take it that the Tortoise isn't hibernated either?


I'm guessing not. Everything else is missed out. Why bother hibernating.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

sazzle said:


> when did they get that set up? i lived in newquay for 18 months and on my several visits i never noticed that
> 
> i think if it works for you then fair enough... agreed... seems a little small but surely if you were doing something wrong then something would've died by now x


Just cos something's not dead, doesn't make it healthy.


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## suey (Aug 21, 2008)

LiamRatSnake said:


> There is a problem trying these things when the requirements for individual species aren't even met, never mind combining them.


 It's called sarcasm Liam, it may be the lowest form of wit, but it is the only one i possess!


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## ooMISSPERFECToo (Jun 17, 2007)

suey said:


> It's called sarcasm Liam, it may be the lowest form of wit, but it is the only one i possess!


ditto... your comment made me chuckle, x


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## jahred (Mar 5, 2009)

LiamRatSnake said:


> I'm guessing not. Everything else is missed out. Why bother hibernating.


True. 

I mean, at the end of the day, I'm sure that this Tortoise is fine. 

I'm still a bit worried about why they chose a Horsfield for this experiment. I'm sure the convo must have gone like this:

"Hey, we need a med Tortoise"

"Well, Horsfields are the cheapest". 

Rather than:

"Hmm, this Tortoises naturally creates burrows and hibernates; maybe putting him in a viv where he can't do either of those would be a bad idea"


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

strictly_scales said:


> I've presented my point; many of you will continue to disagree, and I'm sure the finer points of how much space an adult Horsfields Tortoise needs etc cxan be argued until dusk.
> 
> I intensely dislike and fully disregard the out-right abuse I have recieved for this post, I simply proposed and coherently explained to you a set-up that I have found to work extremely well.
> 
> ...


Rupert, you are nothing short of pigheaded, ignorant and have an overinflated sense of self.

As a professional Herpetologist, I'll say it again you are a poor scientist at best and you mention "zoo standard" far too often for a man who obviously has no concept of what that means.
Many people here have "pushed boundaries" further than you with less deliberate risk to animals, they have constructed valid ecosystems within their homes or workplaces to which your effort just doesn't stand up.
I work with 9 mixed exhibits on a daily basis, they are nothing like the crazy concepts in your head and rightly so... I would be personally and professionally embarrassed to stand up and say I had anything to do with an "experiment" like yours.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

suey said:


> It's called sarcasm Liam, it may be the lowest form of wit, but it is the only one i possess!


My apologies


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

Please give it a rest now, you are winding each other up. None of the animals are sick in fact the beardys happily breed in the viv every year. And yes the tortoise is hibernated outside of the viv.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

jahred said:


> True.
> 
> I mean, at the end of the day, I'm sure that this Tortoise is fine.
> 
> ...


It may be fine for now, but without UV/hibernation/ventilation/access to outdoors and the likelihood that it is eating all the high protein poo, I'd be surprised if it lived for many more years.
EDIT: It is claimed that the tortoise is hibernated.


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

suey said:


> It's called sarcasm Liam, it may be the lowest form of wit, but it is the only one i possess!


Really sarcasm is the lowest form of wit? WOW... 

sorry but only really obvious sarcasm works via typing.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> *Im finished with replies now. I have my argued my case ~I do not wish to cover same ground any longer, every thing I am personally doing is forever evolving, growing and improving and so Im happy.*
> 
> *None of the animals are sick or ever have been in the past 18 months from when this started.*
> 
> ...


That was a very poor reply.

You have finished with reptiles.. what on earth does that mean??

You are bored.. you have enough data for your experiment.. what?

I KNEW you would cop out.. I KNEW you would say you no longer wished to discuss it when you were asked specific questions and scientific facts were pointed out to you..ones you were obviously NOT aware of or did not know how to answer without making yourself look bad.. or ill informed



I hope you dont go to the soth west reptile show like you have suggested you will on June 21st... and even remotely try to give anyone advice on skinks like you said you would on the show thread.. noone should be taking advice from someone like you


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> Please give it a rest now, you are winding each other up. None of the animals are sick in fact the beardys happily breed in the viv every year. And yes the tortoise is hibernated outside of the viv.


Even unhappy/unhealthy animals have the strong urge to breed. I'd completely discount that as evidence they're happy and healthy.


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## jahred (Mar 5, 2009)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> Please give it a rest now, you are winding each other up. None of the animals are sick in fact the beardys happily breed in the viv every year. And yes the tortoise is hibernated outside of the viv.


Er.... doesn't that mess up your experiment?

I mean, removing one of the creatures for at least 4 months of the year will adjust the space accordingly for the other animals.

Hey, I'm not a scientist and I can spot the massive flaw in your "experiment".


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

We established that this was a very bad idea last night. Now ive seen the pics it definitely is. If the animals were 'happy' why would they all be darkened in colouration? You know, that common symptom of stress. 
Thread needs closing, there will be too many arguments otherwise. Bad idea, learn from it.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

ShaneLuvsMonitors said:


> Really sarcasm is the lowest form of wit? WOW...
> 
> sorry but only really obvious sarcasm works via typing.


I go that one.:2thumb:


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