# Can we Say " places to avoid" ??



## tomsdragons (Dec 23, 2007)

we have build our site, so respectable reptile breeders/ shops can be shown, and offered trade from people that contatc us.. but..

i also feel its good to let people know of places that have had a few bad reputations...???
could i be charged for "insult" and could it be a good or bad thing?..

your thoughts please, reason i ask, is ive been to a few places, and some are TERRIBLE!... and some good, but i feel mentioning these places could help the reptile trade by "eliminating" the not so good shops/ breeders, and they then have an option.. change the way they are, or close!..

its somthing i have felt passionate about for ages, and i wondered if im allowed to do this, or if i could be charged for it?
Tom


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## gtm (Jan 23, 2008)

You risk being hammered for libel and / or malicious falsehood.


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## TAXI (Apr 5, 2008)

Good idea, but you never know if some-one has there own agenda...


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

I would just not include them...

recommend the places that are good, but not advertise the 'not so good' places....


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## Razzler79 (May 1, 2008)

you might be able to let people leave a positive rating (1-10) on their satisfaction without leaving comments, then the places that aren't so great won't have a high rating. you'll only be asking customers to identify their positive experiences and not to highlight any negatives.

(e.g. our users rated this service 7/10 stars)


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## snakearms (May 19, 2008)

tricky one that,think you'll always get people that love/hate the same shop n it'll just start arguments....


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

To publish any negative opinion that may affect a reputation or business, unless you are absolutely certain of your facts (and willing to prove it in court), leaves you wide open to be sued for libel as the publisher of these statements, even if users wrote them. If you're willing to be taken to court to prove a point then by all means, go ahead... but most people find it a lot more hassle than it's worth.


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## tomsdragons (Dec 23, 2007)

o.k that fine..

the rating system could be good, the problem is we contact the breeders, so its in OUr power, and it would be us that deals with them..

i agree though, i dont want to cause arguments, so maybe il just leave it for now..
Thanks everyone.
Tom


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

This strikes me as the same situation as giving a reference for a job... Your not allowed to give a negative one (anymore), but instead choose not to give one. If for the establishments you don't want to recommend, couldn't you simply say "We can not recommend this establishment". It implies negativity without rumors, or opinion, and is not libelous...

Andy


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

Mate, if I want to say to avoid a place and give my frank opinions then I shall do so.

I've done it before and would do so again.


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## buddy (Jul 10, 2007)

Razzler79 said:


> you might be able to let people leave a positive rating (1-10) on their satisfaction without leaving comments, then the places that aren't so great won't have a high rating. you'll only be asking customers to identify their positive experiences and not to highlight any negatives.
> 
> (e.g. our users rated this service 7/10 stars)


i think this is a great idea then it is not your slating them its customers experiences 

you know what they say "CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT " (not) but not in my job lol


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

I'll be naming and shaming whenever the need arises. So try and sue me.


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

Dextersdad said:


> Mate, if I want to say to avoid a place and give my frank opinions then I shall do so.
> 
> I've done it before and would do so again.


stupid isnt it, i wish it was that simple



Dextersdad said:


> I'll be naming and shaming whenever the need arises. So try and sue me.


thing is, they will.. theres no point being all jumed up and cocky about it.. even if you probably are right. there has been numerous places i wanted to shame, but at the risk of getting sued i just dont.
i hate the laws in this country, places are quick enough to take praise,but the second you say something they dont like, well thats it.. court.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

so how do things like watchdog get away with it?


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Rather than give places to avoid let people review a shop. That way they can give their opinion on their experience and its nothing to do with the owner of the site (you'll need the disclaimer though)


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

SiUK said:


> so how do things like watchdog get away with it?


i dunno, i guess they are workin on behalf of the public and are always right. 
they would have been sued by now i guess if they werent allowed.


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## Andy b 1 (May 14, 2007)

they have the proof?


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## captaincarot (Mar 20, 2008)

Andy b 1 said:


> they have the proof?


they have the MONEY to fight the lible action. so people won't start the fight in the first place.


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

captaincarot said:


> they have the MONEY to fight the lible action. so people won't start the fight in the first place.


also being shown to be wrong on natioanl tv kinda says it all really.. how can you fight that?


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

cornmorphs said:


> stupid isnt it, i wish it was that simple
> 
> 
> thing is, they will.. theres no point being all jumed up and cocky about it.. even if you probably are right. there has been numerous places i wanted to shame, but at the risk of getting sued i just dont.
> i hate the laws in this country, places are quick enough to take praise,but the second you say something they dont like, well thats it.. court.


I'm neither being jumped up or cocky about it. Just saying it like it is so please no personal slurs against me.

If I get someone trying to sue me then so be it let them try. I've been careful to only say what I see. It's not a case of instantly going to court. Luckily I have a good contact who is a solicitor so I consult there first


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

gtm said:


> You risk being hammered for libel and / or malicious falsehood.


not strictly true. If any comments made are entirely factual and not exagerrated or made up then there is no case to answer.
Even if there was, to be honest, a court case against the person who made the untrue comments, is so expensive that most people cannot afford to bring action against the person who said or wrote the things. I know because someone libelled me a few months ago and to start litigation against the person who did so, was going to cost me in the region of £4000 minimum according to my solicitor.
Nobody can sue anyone for telling the truth.


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

Dextersdad said:


> I'm neither being jumped up or cocky about it. Just saying it like it is so please no personal slurs against me.
> 
> If I get someone trying to sue me then so be it let them try. I've been careful to only say what I see. It's not a case of instantly going to court. Luckily I have a good contact who is a solicitor so I consult there first


 
you're missing the point.

If you say something bad about them and cannot PROOVE it you're guilty. End of court case no matter how many friendly solicitors you know.


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

Mason said:


> you're missing the point.
> 
> If you say something bad about them and cannot PROOVE it you're guilty. End of court case no matter how many friendly solicitors you know.


Point not missed. I said I would be careful to ask my solicitor friend (not plural) first then say wheat it is I had to say. And there is nothing wrong with giving a view to avoid somewhere to go as originally asked. For doing this there can be no case brought forward.

besides all of the other points no one knows where I live lol!:2thumb:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Mason said:


> you're missing the point.
> 
> If you say something bad about them and cannot PROOVE it you're guilty. End of court case no matter how many friendly solicitors you know.


Please, this just isn't true. The onus is on the litigator to prove that you told lies.


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Please, this just isn't true. The onus is on the litigator to prove that you told lies.


Here here:cheers:


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

*avoid*

all this is fairer enough as long as the facts are right we had someone saying stuff about one of our lizards with no toes so i photographed the animal in question and put the pics on here to show the facts were wong and he did have all his didgits


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

penfold said:


> all this is fairer enough as long as the facts are right we had someone saying stuff about one of our lizards with no toes so i photographed the animal in question and put the pics on here to show the facts were wong and he did have all his didgits


That's a good point and raises another point. Are reptiles in stores with missing digits poorly looked after? Not so without proof. There's a store not far from Canterbury that had an Ackie with loads of missing toes but I couldn't say for sure why that was.


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## tomsdragons (Dec 23, 2007)

wow.. a few replys since i was last on..

i am writing up a disclaimer basicly for the "reviewer" to accept all responsability for the comments written, and its not a direct reflection of myself, but purly of the person and customer in question..

i hate that i view a good few shops, and some are below standard.. i also know as a community we are pretty powerless towards it, but..

i do belive in reptiles/ breeders and collectors to be treated with respect, and given the quality that reptiles and such things should be sold at, i have bought reptiles with awefull injuries, and conditions.. purly due to the fact they wound not last to long in the shop.
my site is basicly for good breeders and shops to be losted, it could be said if there not on there avoid them, but also are shops without web sites, and thats what i want to avoide, hundreads of good, excellent breeders/ shops SHOULD be named, and helped, why should a poor shop, with awefull condition sell an albino python, when another exsperienced good shop has the same stock, but of a better condition, health, and can offer a better infomation and care for the reptile..
to many small shops now think of it as a "quick" bit of cash, half there stock are bought from "friends" who have not a clue, and thats what i plan to do, stop the cheap, in for a pound shops ruining the reptile trade..
noway will i make an impact i know, but id feel better myself, and if i know people who spend there days/ weeks/ months/ years caring/ breeding and know about reptiles i will rather help them trade then these poor places that i belive should be named and shamed..
i had last week 4 days out of the 7 with over 2400 hits.. i word of mouth is the way forward, and if all the viewers were looking at getting a reptile, they would know where to avoid, and therefore help the "proffesional" breeders get paid for what they do best.. reptile keeping!


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> wow.. a few replys since i was last on..
> 
> i am writing up a disclaimer basicly for the "reviewer" to accept all responsability for the comments written, and its not a direct reflection of myself, but purly of the person and customer in question..
> 
> ...


My understanding is that that would make no difference from a legal point of view. By giving people a public platform through which they can express their views you could also be held liable should those views be proved to be factually incorrect. Basically, I don't think that that disclaimer would be worth the (virtual) paper its written on, but I could be wrong.

Good luck with the project!

Stuart


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

As there is legal presidence for Americans to allow websites to do this i THINK that if you were to host the site on an American server you would be safe.

I put up some links a fair few months back to show the presidence.


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

reticulatus said:


> As there is legal presidence for Americans to allow websites to do this i THINK that if you were to host the site on an American server you would be safe.
> 
> I put up some links a fair few months back to show the presidence.


Nice one.

Just trying to find the person you wanted to screw over for a buck would be hard enough:whistling2:.

BUT I still have the right to name places to avoid "if I were you" as that still referrs to me. As in if I were you you would therefor not be you and so in. It's perfectly legal to advise against going to places, even to the proprieters face. No law against that.


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## tomsdragons (Dec 23, 2007)

yea, its somthing im going to have sit down witha cup of tera and think about..

im basicly doing it for the breeders and shops...
not for myself, but the reptile community itself..

there is a way, and il find it..


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Dextersdad said:


> BUT I still have the right to name places to avoid "if I were you" as that still referrs to me. As in if I were you you would therefor not be you and so in. It's perfectly legal to advise against going to places, even to the proprieters face. No law against that.


It isn't that clear cut 

If you actively limit the trade someone receives then they could in theory take you to court. At which point they don't have to prove you were lying, just that you have caused them a loss of earnings.

Don't get me wrong, i am ALL for it. I just happened to have looked at this previously.


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

*shop*



Dextersdad said:


> That's a good point and raises another point. Are reptiles in stores with missing digits poorly looked after? Not so without proof. There's a store not far from Canterbury that had an Ackie with loads of missing toes but I couldn't say for sure why that was.


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/120228-ridge-tailed-monitors.html#post1665371


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

reticulatus said:


> It isn't that clear cut
> 
> If you actively limit the trade someone receives then they could in theory take you to court. At which point they don't have to prove you were lying, just that you have caused them a loss of earnings.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, i am ALL for it. I just happened to have looked at this previously.


OK then they would have to prove that they lost trade because I said "if I were you". Jesus there's nothing wrong with saying that and the law would not come down on me for it. 

Oh yeah, If I were you I'd avoid Critters Cabin in Nottingham.


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

penfold said:


> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/120228-ridge-tailed-monitors.html#post1665371


Exactly there was nothing wrong with what I said there. It was all fact and at no point did I indicate neglect as I still believe that wasn't the case. Ackies are known for missing digits. Simply that it was missing toes like the members OWN one in the post before.


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

*ackies*

the point being he had all his toes


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

penfold said:


> the point being he had all his toes


No the point being there that it didn't. Jesus wept.


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

*avoid*

can you not see the pictures


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

penfold said:


> can you not see the pictures


Nope, no pictures and that Ackie was a while back. Point was that it could happen to well looked after ones too. This one was missing toes and I had been in to the shop on Many occassions and had seen it. It's no longer there and a picture of any other ackie with toes proves nothing.

Still, I'm glad the place is looking a bit cleaner now there's some more local competition.

I'm leaving the thread.


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

Dextersdad said:


> Nope, no pictures and that Ackie was a while back. Point was that it could happen to well looked after ones too. This one was missing toes and I had been in to the shop on Many occassions and had seen it. It's no longer there and a picture of any other ackie with toes proves nothing.
> 
> Still, I'm glad the place is looking a bit cleaner now there's some more local competition.
> 
> I'm leaving the thread.


same ackie only one ever reduced never mind


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Opinion is a very selective thing. While one person may think somewhere is bad, someone else will think it's OK and someone else will think it's good.

The day you choose to visit a shop is also hit and miss. The owner may be in the middle of rearranging for example and the 5 minutes of one day you are there may not be the 5 minutes that shows the shop in it's best light.

Do not judge 

Maybe the reason they want to use your site is to get more customers through the door so they can afford the improvements they know they need to make.


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