# Alternative staple to crickets



## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

So my bearded dragon doesn't like crickets....... I know, very odd...... It is honestly just that he doesn't like them, I've had all my husbandry and everything checked by breeders. It got so bad that at one point he was running away from the crickets...... :roll:

As you can see this means I need to switch my staple for live feeder. Obviously a variety is best, which is what I aim for, atm I'm thinking of a pheonixworm, silkworm and butterworm mix. What do you guys think as far as using that as a staple (along with my usual veg of course).

If that option fails, I've looked into other alternatives so I wanted to know what people thought about feeding solely on just ONE of these (with veg): reptiworms, hornworms, phoenixworms, silkworms or butterworms?

Bare in mind he is a 10week old, 7'' bearded dragon.

P.S. I know you'll all suggest roaches, but due to living in a managed apartment I can't have them, having them would result in me being evicted and therefore homeless! :gasp:

So thoughts.........: victory:


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## awh (Aug 20, 2008)

if you can afford them locusts make a good feeder insect also cockroaches its best to start a colony of roaches they are easy to breed and once you have them up and running correctly you wont need to buy livefood again (i myself dont like cockroaches)


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## RhianB87 (Oct 25, 2009)

I dont know about beardies but my gecko is fed on a staple of locusts.
they are quite expensive for the amount you get but escapees are must easier to catch then crickets and they dont make a noise when adults


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

it all depends where in the world you live???

you talk about horn worms this makes me think you live in the usa???

as you cannot get them here in the uk

this would mean you cannot get locusts???? 

am i wright???????


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

No, incorrect lol.:blush::lolsign:

I live in the UK. And he's not big enough for locus. I doubt he'd take to them either.


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

awh said:


> if you can afford them locusts make a good feeder insect also cockroaches its best to start a colony of roaches they are easy to breed and once you have them up and running correctly you wont need to buy livefood again (i myself dont like cockroaches)


erm, please read the whole thread :lol2:


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## Racheykins90 (Jun 2, 2011)

locusts come in a range of sizes  medium ones or small would be fine for him  i would have a staple of locusts and the worms/veg as you said  although mealworms would be cheaper for you but its your preference!


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## imitebmike (Jun 22, 2008)

you can buy small locusts  

or am i missing something...


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

I wish people would read.......... :lol2:

I doubt whether he'd take locus. My local pet stores don't stock locus small enough and I'm not bulk buying them online, they'd escape, be too many to care for for too long until the supply has dwindled down.

And mealworms aren't good for beardies of my size, cocking hazard, impaction.....

Can anyone answer the question please, this isn't helpful lol.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

flutter said:


> No, incorrect lol.:blush::lolsign:
> 
> I live in the UK. And he's not big enough for locus. I doubt he'd take to them either.


 
ok then
horn worms you cannot get in the uk [illegal]
so with your problems with crics , locs and roaches the next best things are

silkworms 
phoenix worms
morio worms
wax worms
butter worms

you need four types ideally


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

flutter said:


> I wish people would read.......... :lol2:
> 
> I doubt whether he'd take locus. My local pet stores don't stock locus small enough and I'm not bulk buying them online, they'd escape, be too many to care for for too long until the supply has dwindled down.
> 
> ...


To be honest you're the one coming across a bit of a moron
'i doubt he'd take locust' how do you even know?
most reptiles will take locust with ease!
and you don't want to bulk buy because it means looking after them?
To be honest you need to gutload all your live food for 24 hours anyway.
Locust don't escape like crickets do so escaping isnt really much of a worry, especially if you feed 1 by 1
Mealworms are fine for any sized bearded dragon, people feed mini mealworms to hatchling leopard geckos which i imagine are smaller than your beardie and they have no choking or impaction problems, they're myths.


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

woodrott said:


> ok then
> horn worms you cannot get in the uk [illegal]
> so with your problems with crics , locs and roaches the next best things are
> 
> ...


.......you just reiterated what I said.......

:banghead:


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Chris18 said:


> To be honest you're the one coming across a bit of a moron
> 'i doubt he'd take locust' how do you even know?
> most reptiles will take locust with ease!
> and you don't want to bulk buy because it means looking after them?
> ...


 
i think moron is a bit strong Chris
i think its more of a case of frustration 
and obviously limited knowledge husbandry skills

or maybe there's something wrong with the dragon
as i don't know of a baby dragon that will not eat crics, locs or in fact anything that moves
every pet shop or even pets at home have baby loc,s so i think its just a case of educating this member


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

woodrott said:


> i think moron is a bit strong Chris
> i think its more of a case of frustration
> and obviously limited knowledge husbandry skills
> 
> ...


Ok maybe a bit strong, but he's coming across a bit ignorant, stating things like they're fact and not really taking advise well

What is your husbandry like?
Can you talk us through temperatures etc etc?


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

To be honest you're the one coming across a bit of a moron- I just graduated and am in the top 10% of the UK for intellect....... go on :blush:

'i doubt he'd take locust' how do you even know?-I know my pet, locus I can get are too big for him, and they're behaviour is more like crickets than worms, and he likes worms

most reptiles will take locust with ease!- most also take crickets but he won't really

and you don't want to bulk buy because it means looking after them?
To be honest you need to gutload all your live food for 24 hours anyway.
Locust don't escape like crickets do so escaping isnt really much of a worry, especially if you feed 1 by 1
-I do gut load, thats not my problem, my problem, if you read, is that I'd have to order online, which means bulk buy, that's a lot to look after for the amount of time until their eaten

Mealworms are fine for any sized bearded dragon, people feed mini mealworms to hatchling leopard geckos which i imagine are smaller than your beardie and they have no choking or impaction problems, they're myths.- its not a myth, geckos are different to dragons, mealworms are bad for beardies in so many ways, ok for the occasional feed but they have poor nutrition and lots of chitin.

wned8::lolsign:


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

Chris18 said:


> Ok maybe a bit strong, but he's coming across a bit ignorant, stating things like they're fact and not really taking advise well
> 
> What is your husbandry like?
> Can you talk us through temperatures etc etc?


please read my original post :blush:


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Chris18 said:


> Ok maybe a bit strong, but he's coming across a bit ignorant, stating things like they're fact and not really taking advise well
> 
> What is your husbandry like?
> Can you talk us through temperatures etc etc?


 
I'm not sure what the member wants to here???

there's not one live food that will be best to feed solely
you need at least 4 different types as you know
i gave a list in order of the best
what more can we do?????


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## SkinheadOi85 (Sep 28, 2008)

Maybe a little fiddly but have you tried getting hold of the crickets in tweezers and in effect hand feeding?? You could practice with veg if you dont like the idea of trying with crickets first.

Locusts if you buy a tub of adults and set up a breeder group itll take time but u can produce your own offspring that will be small enough for said beardie???

What is hornworm as Ive never seen or heard of them to be honest.

If non of the suggested food types work try taking him to your reptile shop and asking what they suggest...I had problem feeders in past (varying reps over the years) and taken them to my local shop and they have tried a variety of foods in the shop with me there so i can see what he or she went for?

Have you had beardie to the vets for a check over and also a poo sample test? may have parasites etc

Or as a last resort force feed?? (not to be tried before ALL other avenues have been attempted also if you are unsure how to get advice)


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

as i don't know of a baby dragon that will not eat crics, locs or in fact anything that moves- he eats them, just not as many as people think he should, he only ate 20 brown crickets a day (that was the the average count a week or so ago, since then he's been in shed, and I've switched him from brown to black crickets, for some reason my local store had black instead of their usual brown)

every pet shop or even pets at home have baby loc,s so i think its just a case of educating this member- nope, mine has small ones just not small enough unfortunately, coz in all honesty this is what I wanted to feed on because their better for him than crickets


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

flutter said:


> To be honest you're the one coming across a bit of a moron- I just graduated and am in the top 10% of the UK for intellect....... go on :blush:
> 
> 'i doubt he'd take locust' how do you even know?-I know my pet, locus I can get are too big for him, and they're behaviour is more like crickets than worms, and he likes worms
> 
> ...



To be honest, your level of intellect doesn't prove a thing, a lot of super brainy people lack common sense, not saying you do but it proves nothing to me....
Again stating things as facts when they're clearly not.
They're myths, they do not have high chitin, the nutritional value was taken from the adult beetles, which have a high chitin level, the meal worms do not! they're not bad for dragons.

How can you know he won't take locust? bulk buy is like 50 locust, if he's eating a good amount this will last you a week maximum, is it really that hard to shove a piece of daddy lion leaf dusted with calcium powder into the bag them cam in every few days? It's part of owning reptiles.......

Where do you get your live food from? i'm sure if you ask they can get smaller ones in? if you're going off the rule, smaller than the gap between their eyes then that's a load of rubbish, reptiles will take prey as wide as their mouth easy, they've evolved to not be fussy.


Edit: 'read my orginal post' all i can see in your original post is that you had your husbandry checked by breeders, this means nothing, just state what your temperatures are etc so we can check them also, i've heard of a lot of breeders giving bad advice?


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## dickvansheepcake (Jul 8, 2009)

flutter said:


> its not a myth, geckos are different to dragons, mealworms are bad for beardies in so many ways, ok for the occasional feed but they have poor nutrition and lots of chitin.
> 
> wned8::lolsign:


Please name all these 'so many ways' that meal worms are bad for beardies.


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## SkinheadOi85 (Sep 28, 2008)

Flutter im not sure what other advice we can all offer....Only so much can be said without posters repeating one another.

I hope you sort the little fella out and all is well for him/her.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

flutter said:


> as i don't know of a baby dragon that will not eat crics, locs or in fact anything that moves- he eats them, just not as many as people think he should, he only ate 20 brown crickets a day (that was the the average count a week or so ago, since then he's been in shed, and I've switched him from brown to black crickets, for some reason my local store had black instead of their usual brown)
> 
> every pet shop or even pets at home have baby loc,s so i think its just a case of educating this member- nope, mine has small ones just not small enough unfortunately, coz in all honesty this is what I wanted to feed on because their better for him than crickets


 
well i don't know what else to suggest
but if your in the top ten brain boxes then give me a call 01244382780
my reputation for feeding dragons is one of the best on this forum
if i cant understand your problems then i think your stuck


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

Maybe a little fiddly but have you tried getting hold of the crickets in tweezers and in effect hand feeding?? You could practice with veg if you dont like the idea of trying with crickets first.
- I tried but he has the same eating complex as me, and apparently its common among beardies, he doesn't like eating when people watch him.... well if people are watching he'd rather sit and watch them, if you leave he eats. But he'll only eat 20 crickets a day, which people say isn't enough for one of 7-11 weeks.

Locusts if you buy a tub of adults and set up a breeder group itll take time but u can produce your own offspring that will be small enough for said beardie???
- partner won't let me breed locus, gutted because I wanted to breed crickets but he'll only let me breed mealworms

What is hornworm as Ive never seen or heard of them to be honest.
- I duno exactly but I think they're green and have a spike on their butt, they're a common feeder for beardies, but other stuff I read is primarily US so it might be a US thing

If non of the suggested food types work try taking him to your reptile shop and asking what they suggest...I had problem feeders in past (varying reps over the years) and taken them to my local shop and they have tried a variety of foods in the shop with me there so i can see what he or she went for?
- yeah, I'm going to next time I'm there, I talked to the breeder before and he dint seem concerned about 20 crickets a day.

Have you had beardie to the vets for a check over and also a poo sample test? may have parasites etc 
- clean bill of health

Or as a last resort force feed?? (not to be tried before ALL other avenues have been attempted also if you are unsure how to get advice)
- I think I'll try smoothies 1st, chuck some crickets and stuf in a blender and pipette it into his mouth, he'll love it if I mix it with his favourite veg! :2thumb:

most helpful post yet :notworthy:


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## SkinheadOi85 (Sep 28, 2008)

Sheepcake maybe shes getting her worms muddled up??? 

Waxies with Mealies???

Also said they can get hornworm,which reading back has been pointed out in uk (were flutter is from and myself) is illegal...(havent looked into this so not sure also have never seen them for sale)


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## yellrat (Jun 13, 2008)

This was a reply to another member earlier but still has relevance here.



> I agree the bearded dragon should have more variation to his live food than just meal-worms but I'm sorry it is wrong to say they have little to low nutritional value and they are not harder to digest they are just as easy to digest as any other live food.
> 
> Have a read of this article may help change your views on meal worms being bad.
> Glasgowgecko article mealworms Facts


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## SkinheadOi85 (Sep 28, 2008)

hornworm ??? Manduca quinquemaculata - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## SkinheadOi85 (Sep 28, 2008)

Flutter...do you have a spare tub (underbed storage box or similar to a RUB) you could drill and turn into breeder tub....put it under the bed...under the stairs, in the shed or anyplace out off sight. maybe your other half wont be to fussed if he/she can not see them???


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

dickvansheepcake said:


> Please name all these 'so many ways' that meal worms are bad for beardies.


whaaaa? Read my post, I put some in there, other than that :google:?

or beardeddragon.org have lots of info as well as Nutrition Content which is an amazing site, that has a little list of reasons why they are bad in their table


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

SkinheadOi85 said:


> hornworm ??? Manduca quinquemaculata - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


yeah! :2thumb: but not the moth thing, the larvae form


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

SkinheadOi85 said:


> hornworm ??? Manduca quinquemaculata - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


horn worms

the tomato ones and tobacco ones are band by defra fact
the other native British ones live on privet mostly this is a toxin to reptiles[dragons]


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

I'd still like to know what your husbandry is like?
again, saying breeders have given it the ok means nothing.
Also do no pipette mushed food into his mouth, what purpose would it serve?
He'll either have to be pipetted for the whole of his life because you won't figure out why he won't eat or if he's not eating because of husbandry faults, he'll eventually become very ill and die because he might not be digesting properly?


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## dickvansheepcake (Jul 8, 2009)

flutter said:


> whaaaa? Read my post, I put some in there, other than that :google:?
> 
> or beardeddragon.org have lots of info as well as Nutrition Content which is an amazing site, that has a little list of reasons why they are bad in their table


Read this 

http://glasgowgecko.co.uk/Articles/P56-59 Meal Worms proof rev2-1.pdf

If you are having feeding problems the person to talk to is woodrott. You're coming across as an ignorant, ungrateful fool. Instead of being rude to the one person who is basically guaranteed to sort your beardie out why don't you just give him a ring.

You want to know what one live food is best to feed a beardie. The answer is none of them. They need a varied diet, with at least 4 live feeders being best.

If your beardie isn't eating properly it is most likely your fault. I expect your husbandry is not right. Why don't you run through your setup.


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## SkinheadOi85 (Sep 28, 2008)

tomato hornworm...I dont think id feed caterpillers myself...

I remember having to feed a rescue beardie (she was minus a leg and couldnt give chase to food well) locusts with the back legs (ones used for hopping) cut off....so they could only walk...she got used to these then I tried smaller locusts (my theory smaller legs smaller jump) that had been chilled in fridge so slower moving to her....she took a while to get used to them but eventually came round. she had other insects etc and veg of course.

sometimes it just take patience....alot of patience....I think people know of beardies to be eating machines and worry when they are not...lik eus tho they can have preferred foods and likes and dislikes.


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

SkinheadOi85 said:


> Flutter...do you have a spare tub (underbed storage box or similar to a RUB) you could drill and turn into breeder tub....put it under the bed...under the stairs, in the shed or anyplace out off sight. maybe your other half wont be to fussed if he/she can not see them???


nah, my bed has a solid base, and I live in an apartment on all one floor, its one of them modern 'contemporary' places, i guess you'd call it, it doesn't have all them nooks that older places have, which is annoying when hiding cake from your other half :lol2: the boxes of crickets I buy live in his chest of draws, its the only out of the way we have, amusing when I drop crickets into the draw and then he has crickets in his clothes..... im so clumsy! :crazy:


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

SkinheadOi85 said:


> tomato hornworm...I dont think id feed caterpillers myself...
> 
> I remember having to feed a rescue beardie (she was minus a leg and couldnt give chase to food well) locusts with the back legs (ones used for hopping) cut off....so they could only walk...she got used to these then I tried smaller locusts (my theory smaller legs smaller jump) that had been chilled in fridge so slower moving to her....she took a while to get used to them but eventually came round. she had other insects etc and veg of course.
> 
> sometimes it just take patience....alot of patience....I think people know of beardies to be eating machines and worry when they are not...lik eus tho they can have preferred foods and likes and dislikes.


my point exactly, people get caught up in what's normal for a beardie and forget they're as individual as people are! The reason their loved so much but also the reason for problems.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

dickvansheepcake said:


> Read this
> 
> http://glasgowgecko.co.uk/Articles/P56-59 Meal Worms proof rev2-1.pdf
> 
> ...


Actually, if you're going to refer to one of andy's articles, maybe you should read his one about how variety of insects is not needed? obviously you don't have to agree with all his articles though :lol2:
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/495133-variety-really-spice-life.html
I'm not saying variety is bad, just that it isn't 100% necessary : victory:


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## SkinheadOi85 (Sep 28, 2008)

Escappee are a pain in the neck...use a cricket catcher ?? like a tub with tubes in crickets wonder up and cant get out (bad description i know) but they could work and save the blokes clothing lol.

Honestly tho....check and recheck all your set up such as basking temps, UV bulb ( how old is it? may need replacing)....size of set up. Not trying to suggest you dont know what you are doing but you may over look something (i know I am guilty of this in the past)

Also WoodRott (one T or two? sorry Mr Wood my spelling isnt great or my memory at the moment) is bloody good and knows his stuff....Id just ring and get their opinion...sometimes better to talk to a stranger as then its in a way anonymous and not face to face.


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

Chris18 said:


> I'd still like to know what your husbandry is like?
> again, saying breeders have given it the ok means nothing.
> Also do no pipette mushed food into his mouth, what purpose would it serve?
> He'll either have to be pipetted for the whole of his life because you won't figure out why he won't eat or if he's not eating because of husbandry faults, he'll eventually become very ill and die because he might not be digesting properly?


Lots of people pipette mushed food, you progress them from that to whole live food, it's common practice, and VERY useful.

My friend's dragon had a problem with digestion, would have thought vets would have spotted it........ but her dragon lived out a full and happy life, he was just a bit smaller than his/her sibling, I think he/she was hand fed too.....


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

flutter said:


> Lots of people pipette mushed food, you progress them from that to whole live food, it's common practice, and VERY useful.
> 
> My friend's dragon had a problem with digestion, would have thought vets would have spotted it........ but her dragon lived out a full and happy life, he was just a bit smaller than his/her sibling, I think he/she was hand fed too.....


IMO mushed food is a resort for when the animal is too weak to feed its self, how will you progress from mushed food to whole live insects if you don't know what he'll take because you're jumping the gun right to an emergency method.
You say he eats 20 crickets a day? IMO that's fine and you won't need to pipette him
Digestive problems are normally linked with low temperatures?


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## dickvansheepcake (Jul 8, 2009)

Chris18 said:


> Actually, if you're going to refer to one of andy's articles, maybe you should read his one about how variety of insects is not needed? obviously you don't have to agree with all his articles though :lol2:
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/495133-variety-really-spice-life.html
> I'm not saying variety is bad, just that it isn't 100% necessary : victory:



I don't have to agree with all of his articles, no! :lol2: The meal worm article is based on fact, the one you posted is based on his opinion mainly. I agree with fact, but have my own opinions and follow the advice of keepers/breeders I trust the most. : victory:


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

woodrott said:


> horn worms
> 
> the tomato ones and tobacco ones are band by defra fact
> the other native British ones live on privet mostly this is a toxin to reptiles[dragons]


see this is the kind of thing I did want to know, I did not know this! : victory:

I thought I found one as a kid but it must have been something else, or a naughty one got into the UK :gasp:

why are they illegal? Is it the whole 'it will eat our entire supply of leaves' thing? Like GALS in USA, the snails it released into the wild just eat eat eat all the green stuff and destroy entire habitats, i still love them so :flrt:


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

flutter said:


> see this is the kind of thing I did want to know, I did not know this! : victory:
> 
> I thought I found one as a kid but it must have been something else, or a naughty one got into the UK :gasp:
> 
> why are they illegal? Is it the whole 'it will eat our entire supply of leaves' thing? Like GALS in USA, the snails it released into the wild just eat eat eat all the green stuff and destroy entire habitats, i still love them so :flrt:


as stated give me a call about feeder food
i don't pretend to know everything but i think a little bit


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

SkinheadOi85 said:


> Escappee are a pain in the neck...use a cricket catcher ?? like a tub with tubes in crickets wonder up and cant get out (bad description i know) but they could work and save the blokes clothing lol.
> 
> Honestly tho....check and recheck all your set up such as basking temps, UV bulb ( how old is it? may need replacing)....size of set up. Not trying to suggest you dont know what you are doing but you may over look something (i know I am guilty of this in the past)
> 
> Also WoodRott (one T or two? sorry Mr Wood my spelling isnt great or my memory at the moment) is bloody good and knows his stuff....Id just ring and get their opinion...sometimes better to talk to a stranger as then its in a way anonymous and not face to face.


Don't even get me with escapee crickets, you move the bed in my house and there will be a littering of dead crickets, the bathroom is a favourite for live ones, hilarious considering its a shiny floor so can't even walk on it, and one got stuck in the bath! How it got in is beyond me!

My UV is a month old, basking temp is 105F, and the cool end is about 80F, can't remember exactly, and its lights off atm so I can't check.

Me and my partner have social anxiety so phoning people is the worst thing! I have THE best anxiety rash from thinking about ringing sky from our bill! lol


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

flutter said:


> Don't even get me with escapee crickets, you move the bed in my house and there will be a littering of dead crickets, the bathroom is a favourite for live ones, hilarious considering its a shiny floor so can't even walk on it, and one got stuck in the bath! How it got in is beyond me!
> 
> My UV is a month old, basking temp is 105F, and the cool end is about 80F, can't remember exactly, and its lights off atm so I can't check.
> 
> Me and my partner have social anxiety so phoning people is the worst thing! I have THE best anxiety rash from thinking about ringing sky from our bill! lol


 
moon struck on here is the same as you
but now she calls me
i understand don't panic I'm easy to talk too
and i do most of the talking any way ???? so people say:lol2:
it sounds like you need help
do it for your dragon


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## Palace of Dragons (Apr 27, 2011)

*..*

Please do NOT attempt to pipette food into your beardie. The biting power of a beardie can easily lead to a jaw fracture, as seen in a recent article in a well known reptile magazine. I just want to point out that this pipette was actually administered by a qualified vet when it happened too.

Also, live foods do not have to be bought in bulk, they can be purchased in as small or large amount as you wish, you may just have to deal with the postage costs.

One thing I can assure you of, as any other breeder will tell you, if you keep bearded dragons, you should make allowances for storing live foods, and as others have mentioned, in a good variety of types.

The forums are a great place for anyone to learn about beardie husbandry, no one person knows everything, but there are people who know, through hard work, dedication and experience, a damn lot. You would do well to listen to what they say.

Good luck with the beardy, hope it gets the menu he/she deserves.


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## SkinheadOi85 (Sep 28, 2008)

Flutter try corosponding via private message with WoodRott on here instead or via msn ??? real time but no actual voice (just an idea)

Hope it works out for you and also the Hornworm (from speaking to WR) is banned due to being a huge pest if they go tinto crop over here.


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

btw Chris18 I find your signature thing hilarious 'I will not judge you in anyway'... you called me a moron from the off :2thumb:

Is 20 appropriately sized crickets a day actually OK for a 7-11 week old beardie? Coz other people are like 'OMG he sould be doing 100 a day', but my breeder seems OK with the 20 a day figure, its actually what he said they eat when I 1st went into the store.

My husbandry is fine, basking spot of 105F and cool end is about 80F, they are rough figures, because its lights off atm so that's just what I remember them being off the top of my head. The basking light is a bright white light. He has lots of levels to bask on, so has a choice of where he wants to reside, although he's really active, so its not so much reside as pause periodically lol. He has a UVB tube that he can get as close as 4'' to. He gets a different veg every day (bok choy, collard greens, curly kale, parsnip, sweet potato with the very occasional carrot, all these are either grated or chopped finely). He gets fed twice a day, dusted everyday with calcium with vitamins like twice a week now, or every other day, I can't remember, I'll check my feeding schedule if you want to know. He has a water bowl that I have seen him drink from, plus he gets a bath about every other day. He sheds a lot, and does grow the recommended 1/2 an inch a week. I think shedding a lot could contribute for him eating less than he possibly should because he HATES shedding, so being off his food because of shedding means he's not eating as many crickets. He's been in shed more than out of shed really, coz they shed in bits there's always a bit of him shedding, e.g. he just shed his belly and his tail is has been due to shed for a few days now so should be shedding within the next couple of days.

I'm not an expert but don't take me as ignorant, I just do a lot of research, I've just finished my chemistry degree which is invaluable and my partner who lives with me has kept and bred reptiles and their food for over one and half decades, he had 7 bearded dragons at one point because he did a lot of rescues, so we're not exactly newbies. Im going into the teaching profession so people not listening to what I'm saying is a pet peeve, there's a reason we have RTFQ (Read The F***ing Question), its because of teachers like me :lol2: So you understand when I get irate when people don't answer the question. Also being called a moron is less than helpful, especially when people don't think of the consequences of it, I know A LOT of people that if you did that to they'd go back into a depression spiral after making so much progress, remember, we are on the internet, there could be ANYONE on here, so think before you speak, it really was a disgusting egotistical act when you think about the consequences.......

Anyway, any other questions about my husbandry, seen as people don't believe it's approved........... :lol2:


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

whitepanther_1 said:


> Please do NOT attempt to pipette food into your beardie. The biting power of a beardie can easily lead to a jaw fracture, as seen in a recent article in a well known reptile magazine. I just want to point out that this pipette was actually administered by a qualified vet when it happened too.
> 
> Also, live foods do not have to be bought in bulk, they can be purchased in as small or large amount as you wish, you may just have to deal with the postage costs.
> 
> ...


Oh, no no, you use a plastic pipette, its quite thin flexible plastic, no chance of shattering, it'll just bend if bitten and absorb the force leaving little teeth marks, still tough enough for him to not to ingest a bit of it though (I'm a chemist, I use to use these things all the time, so I know them and also the nature of the plastic)

Yeah postage cost is a problem with small orders and small orders by post also make it very easy to run out..... so you see the problem here


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## kerrithsoden (Dec 6, 2009)

has anybody else thought to ask how long he's had his beardie?

If you have only just got him they can take a little while to settle in and can go off their food.

The obvious thing to me is to try and persevere with the crickets. Imo most will take them eventually. Throw a handful in and whatever isn't eaten in 10-15 mins take out.

If hes eating 20 then this shows that he will eat them just not the amounts you think he should. do this a couple times a day. I don't see any major issue with this.


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

SkinheadOi85 said:


> Flutter try corosponding via private message with WoodRott on here instead or via msn ??? real time but no actual voice (just an idea)
> 
> Hope it works out for you and also the Hornworm (from speaking to WR) is banned due to being a huge pest if they go tinto crop over here.



Might try PM then. Nothing popped up about hornworm being illegal when i googled 'hornworm UK'... mind you nothing much at all popped up with 'hornworm UK' so them being illegal was probably why! :2thumb:


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## SkinheadOi85 (Sep 28, 2008)

I dont think is a case of it not being approved as such FLutter, I feel people are asking so they can get a bigger picture and see if a different veiw point can cast any help....perhaps pics of the set up?? (mainly cos im nosy and like looking at set ups for inspiration)

Congratrs on going into teaching very rewarding job...alas tho you struggle talking to people how do you cope in a classroom situation??? (may help using the same stratergies and coping mechs in principle to talkng on the telephone)


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## DaveG1973 (Mar 1, 2011)

Can i just ask why you have your lights out at midday ??


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## SkinheadOi85 (Sep 28, 2008)

flutter said:


> Might try PM then. Nothing popped up about hornworm being illegal when i googled 'hornworm UK'... mind you nothing much at all popped up with 'hornworm UK' so them being illegal was probably why! :2thumb:


I tihnk if you search DEFRA (sure thats who WoodRott mentioned) that it will tell you why on that site, although they are poison to reps (the native uk species of hornworm)


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

kerrithsoden said:


> has anybody else thought to ask how long he's had his beardie?
> 
> If you have only just got him they can take a little while to settle in and can go off their food.
> 
> ...


I've had him about a month and he is/was only a baby and they are naturally more temperamental. Preserving is what I have been doing, I just worry because not eating causes a whole host of problems. Does it matter that I just leave the crickets in there, I take them out before lights out because I know they can bite my dragon? I've mentioned this to others and they think its fine me not removing them after 10-15 minutes, but that is just opinion of course........

20 does show interest, it is just really strange that he stops after 20, its not like he's constipated because he poops daily because constipation would make him eat but not as much. It is just genuinely like he's full after 20, but if he sees anything wormlike he'll still gob it down after the 20 crickets.

Do people think 20 crickets a day is not enough for a 7-11 week old beardie? The crickets are the distance between his eyes in size. I wasn't concerned until I looked on forums and people were saying 100 a day :gasp: I mean 20 compared to 100, that's like 1/5 the amount, I do well feed my crickets but thats rediculous!


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## Palace of Dragons (Apr 27, 2011)

*....*

I do understand and appreciate that you have a knowledge of using the correct pipettes/method of force feeding. However, it's similar to pouring oil into a car engine with a leak, it keeps things going longer but it doesn't rectify the problem. Personally, I would only use force feeding as an extreme last resort, but that's just my opinion and I respect that others will differ.
Apologies if this has already been asked but has there been any recent changes to the set up your beardy lives in. Beardies sometimes don't react very well to change and even simple log and rock rearranging can affect them for days.
Shedding, as you said, could be partly responsible as many reptiles, not just beardies, can be a little grouchy.
As for the 100 crickets a day, well to be honest each beardy is different. There is no hard and fast rule as to the quantities each will eat.
A weekly weigh should provide the data to work out if your beardy is eating enough.


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

DaveG1973 said:


> Can i just ask why you have your lights out at midday ??


Im not normally in now, so his lights go on in the afternoon and are on for like 14 hours still, they just go off in the morning. It just means I'm actually there over lights on time. I was gone from 8am till 11pm every day one week, which on a normal persons timing would mean I wasn't in for any of the lights on time... Remember, we are on the internet, a place where EVERYONE is, including the nocturnal of us, and those who work long hours.


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## kerrithsoden (Dec 6, 2009)

flutter said:


> I've had him about a month and he is/was only a baby and they are naturally more temperamental. Preserving is what I have been doing, I just worry because not eating causes a whole host of problems. Does it matter that I just leave the crickets in there, I take them out before lights out because I know they can bite my dragon? I've mentioned this to others and they think its fine me not removing them after 10-15 minutes, but that is just opinion of course........
> 
> 20 does show interest, it is just really strange that he stops after 20, its not like he's constipated because he poops daily because constipation would make him eat but not as much. It is just genuinely like he's full after 20, but if he sees anything wormlike he'll still gob it down after the 20 crickets.
> 
> Do people think 20 crickets a day is not enough for a 7-11 week old beardie? The crickets are the distance between his eyes in size. I wasn't concerned until I looked on forums and people were saying 100 a day :gasp: I mean 20 compared to 100, that's like 1/5 the amount, I do well feed my crickets but thats rediculous!


 
Like you said before, all beardies are differnt, I would say carry on feeding what he wants but maybe increase the frequebcy with which you are doing so, so put an extra feed a day in, as a baby 3 times a day however much he will eat in 10 mins. I dont see a major problem an think it will rectify itself

if hes pooping hes not constipated.

With leaving crickets in the viv, a few is ok so long as they have veg to munch on rather than your dragon. Obviously hundreds is not ideal to leave in there


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## kerrithsoden (Dec 6, 2009)

flutter said:


> Im not normally in now, so his lights go on in the afternoon and are on for like 14 hours still, they just go off in the morning. It just means I'm actually there over lights on time. I was gone from 8am till 11pm every day one week, which on a normal persons timing would mean I wasn't in for any of the lights on time... Remember, we are on the internet, a place where EVERYONE is, including the nocturnal of us, and those who work long hours.


 
I dont think you should tamper with the lighting schedule of your beardie.

If you arent there to manage the lights why not get a timer? This could be whats inhibiting his eating. Even if his lights are on at night there is still not as much visible light in the viv


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

Personally, I would only use force feeding as an extreme last resort, but that's just my opinion and I respect that others will differ.
- oh I wasn't going to force feed, you just get a drip on the end or drip a bit near him so he gets the scent, use the pipette like you would to give water to a dragon that doesn't understand that his water bowl contains water.

Apologies if this has already been asked but has there been any recent changes to the set up your beardy lives in. Beardies sometimes don't react very well to change and even simple log and rock rearranging can affect them for days.
- I got him about a month ago, but no changes other than that. I know what you mean though, I've tried various ways of feeding him like take all the stuff out so the food can;t hide and have a separate feeding tank, but he hates the change and just scratches to get out till I return everything as it should be.

As for the 100 crickets a day, well to be honest each beardy is different. There is no hard and fast rule as to the quantities each will eat.
A weekly weigh should provide the data to work out if your beardy is eating enough.
- I don't own scales, but he is growing at a normal rate, I know that doesn't always relate to weight but he doesn't look skinny, no bones showing ect.


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## scalestails&shells (May 29, 2011)

Having read the whole thread, Ill give a couple of opinions:

1. 105 seems a bit cool for the basking spot, or are you talking about the hot end generally? 115 would be better for the actual basking spot.

2. Whereabouts in the UK are you? As far as I know all Pets at Home stores stock the tiny locusts (and I've never heard of a beardie not taking them).

3. What size crickets are you feeding? 20 micro crickets wouldn't be very much, 20 adults (not that I think you're feeding adults since you're clearly aware of the 'distance between the eyes' rule) would be a lot!

4. If you're going to be feeding silkworms, calciworms etc, then you'd be buying online anyway, so I don't see the problem with buying some locusts at the same time.

5. I see your point about the similarity between crickets and locusts, but picky dragons quite commonly dislike crickets; I've never heard of one disliking locusts!

Just some thoughts, and I hope you get it sorted.


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

kerrithsoden said:


> I dont think you should tamper with the lighting schedule of your beardie.
> 
> If you arent there to manage the lights why not get a timer? This could be whats inhibiting his eating. Even if his lights are on at night there is still not as much visible light in the viv


Just when I though we were progressing here someone has to start it again lol.

The lights are on timer.........
There is still visible light, like I said before the bulb is a normal white bulb, it emits white light, which is visible light........... 

:?


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

scalestails&shells said:


> Having read the whole thread, Ill give a couple of opinions:
> 
> 1. 105 seems a bit cool for the basking spot, or are you talking about the hot end generally? 115 would be better for the actual basking spot.
> 
> ...


awwwwww see now we have now progressed back to the frustration of the beginning. Cummon people your letting the rest of RFUK down, I'm a new member, your supposed to be showing me the awesomeness of this forum!

1. 105F is fine, in all honesty its probs a tad higher, the lights have just come on so I can have a check when the temps get up.

2. Like I said there's no stores near me that stock them. I have no car and neither does my partner, there's no link to the nearest pets and home, which isn't near me at all.

3. Like I said I'm giving the ones that are appropriately sized distance between the eyes size (no idea if they're small, med, large ect, the store just had them on unlabelled shelves)

4. Like I said before I can't do locus......... there's a multitude of reasons I have typed on here..........

5. ^repeat of number 4


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

scalestails&shells said:


> Having read the whole thread, Ill give a couple of opinions:
> 
> 1. 105 seems a bit cool for the basking spot, or are you talking about the hot end generally? 115 would be better for the actual basking spot.
> 
> ...


 
you ask about the temp 105 deg being a bit low????

a baby dragons digestion is in all my testing are at optimal digestion
between 89 to 97 deg after 100 or so all you achieve is dehydration
even my adults don't get more than 107 deg


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

'Like you said before, all beardies are differnt, I would say carry on feeding what he wants but maybe increase the frequebcy with which you are doing so, so put an extra feed a day in, as a baby 3 times a day however much he will eat in 10 mins. I dont see a major problem an think it will rectify itself'
-he's 11 weeks now, is 11 weeks a baby or a juvenile? I assumed with crickets still running about he'd eat them so an extra feeding wasn't necessary coz there was still a good supple there.

I do leave veg in there all the time even at lights off, for them ninja crickets that you never find when digging the rest out, but sure enough appear when the lights are off and the dragon is sound asleep! :lol2:


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks woodrott, was thinking that 115 was insane! :no1:


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

Today I shall try feeding 3 times a day, leaving them in 15 minutes a time. That way if I do that for a few days he may realise he needs to gorge himself in them 15 minutes because there will be no crickets wandering around when he gets the munchies between feedings!

Is feeding at thesame time each day best? I just never had a constant schedule till now, so if he needs a regular feeding schedule now is the time I can start, it may need to change every now and then, but it won't alter day to day anymore. Its just never been emphasised that this is important, its not in any of the caresheets I've seen. It just been mentioned in passing a couple of times.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Everyone else has covered most of it. 20 rcikets sounds fine to me in all honestly, if its what he wants to eat, as woodrott said. 

Regarding buying online, it doesnt have to be in bulk you can buy small tubs as well. 

www.livefoodwarehouse.co.uk does free dilivery so you can order small orders if you want. I've used them for years. That way you can give small locusts, mealworms and other things a go. 

jay


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

I'd say you were right about the 89 to 97 deg being optimal, because where mine spends most of its time is around 90F. Just realised if I want to measure temps my partner borrowed my thermometer..... its in the scorpion tank...... he's a very angry red claw scorpion..... I am going to loose a finger! :lol2:


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

Spikebrit said:


> Everyone else has covered most of it. 20 rcikets sounds fine to me in all honestly, if its what he wants to eat, as woodrott said.
> 
> Regarding buying online, it doesnt have to be in bulk you can buy small tubs as well.
> 
> ...


The link just popped up with 'you are forbidden on this server' lol FORBIDDEN! makes it sound like an enchanted fantasy land!


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

flutter said:


> The link just popped up with 'you are forbidden on this server' lol FORBIDDEN! makes it sound like an enchanted fantasy land!


LOL, you sounds like a gamer. 

the link is Crickets, locust, mealworms and insects for reptiles - The Livefoods Warehouse i missed out 'the', anyway they are really good, free dilivery and their bulk back are great, just keep them in a tub, as you would use a bag a week, if not you can also buy little tubs. 

jay


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

Yeaaaaaahhhhhhh, I don't have a large collection of retro games....... it dint start out this huge but 80 saga saturn games for £70, who wouldn't say no?! I wouldn't be so bad but me and my partner encourage each other we both share a love of gaming and geeky things, but I don't play pokemon so I'm not as bad as him, so people forget my gaming problems coz his are so bad! lol


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

flutter said:


> Yeaaaaaahhhhhhh, I don't have a large collection of retro games....... it dint start out this huge but 80 saga saturn games for £70, who wouldn't say no?! I wouldn't be so bad but me and my partner encourage each other we both share a love of gaming and geeky things, but I don't play pokemon so I'm not as bad as him, so people forget my gaming problems coz his are so bad! lol


LMAO, i dont mind the odd game, but my partner is a big gamer, I play the odd one but work tends to get in the way as I do too much lol. 

I remeber the joys of pokemon lol

jay


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## Nix (Jan 23, 2008)

Have you tried offering smaller crickets having put them in the fridge to slow them down a bit first? I assume you have ruled out everything else which could mean he isn't eating. How is he doing with his veg?

Silk worms are good but once offered if not eaten you can't put the ones you offered back into the main stock - you will need a second tub. (These guys get infections easily I believe). They are a bit too expensive for a staple though. Wax worms are pretty fatty and like junk food though beardies like them a lot.

I would go with dubia roaches as a staple. Easy to culture and grow your own (although a little slow getting started) and add some others livefoods in as well for variety as well as all the calci dusted veg. There is a great beardie food chart in the newbies forum. Worth a look. 

Bulk locusts are actually quite easy to look after - keep them warm and bung in fresh veg leftovers each day. Also, major bonus, they don't escape like crix do.


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## AFC (Mar 7, 2011)

flutter said:


> I wish people would read.......... :lol2:
> 
> I doubt whether he'd take locus. My local pet stores don't stock locus small enough and I'm not bulk buying them online, they'd escape, be too many to care for for too long until the supply has dwindled down.
> 
> ...


I wish people would learn to spell.:whistling2:


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## scalestails&shells (May 29, 2011)

woodrott said:


> you ask about the temp 105 deg being a bit low????
> 
> a baby dragons digestion is in all my testing are at optimal digestion
> between 89 to 97 deg after 100 or so all you achieve is dehydration
> even my adults don't get more than 107 deg


 
Thought I'd read somewhere that the basking spot should be a bit higher.... I'll accept that I'm incorrect, then. :blush:

(Having just checked the conversion, my dragon's hot end is usually between 87 and 96, so I'm not cooking him!)






flutter said:


> awwwwww see now we have now progressed back to the frustration of the beginning. Cummon people your letting the rest of RFUK down, I'm a new member, your supposed to be showing me the awesomeness of this forum!





flutter said:


> 1. 105F is fine, in all honesty its probs a tad higher, the lights have just come on so I can have a check when the temps get up.
> 2. Like I said there's no stores near me that stock them. I have no car and neither does my partner, there's no link to the nearest pets and home, which isn't near me at all.
> 3. Like I said I'm giving the ones that are appropriately sized distance between the eyes size (no idea if they're small, med, large ect, the store just had them on unlabelled shelves)
> 4. Like I said before I can't do locus......... there's a multitude of reasons I have typed on here..........
> 5. ^repeat of number 4


1. – See above, my apologies.
2,4,5 – OK, no locusts. In which case a variety of worms is probably your best bet, in addition to your crickets. To answer the question of which is best, I believe silkworms offer the best protein: fat ratio. Butterworms contain double the calcium of most feeders (according to Rick’s Live Food, where I get my feeders from), but they are high in fat with it. Calciworms are wonderful – wriggly and very high in calcium so you don’t need to dust them, although they’re quite small so as your dragon grows he/she may lose interest in them.




flutter said:


> Is feeding at thesame time each day best?


 
Better to do so, as a rule. I usually offer the first feed about an hour or so after lights come on – before that my dragon won’t eat (presumably because it’s not warm enough for him to digest it).


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## DaveG1973 (Mar 1, 2011)

Reading the bulk of this thread i think the poster should have got herself a barbie doll rather than a bearded dragon... 
They come with instructions too i believe.

Comes on here asking for help/advice and then shoots 75% of the helpers down.... 
Have you tried speaking very slooooowly to your dragon and asking him if he fancies a locus (specific location of a gene)

Maybe thats the problem and the whole time the Beardy is just thinking.... please offer me a :censor: locusT !!!


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

what i want to know is why do you come on here and ask for help and then when people give you advise you tell them they are wrong ect .
and anyway i would say 20 crickets is fine.

now i might get flamed for thinking this but my beardie went throw a time of not wanting crickets so what i did was after he had eaten at least 10 crickets he got some morio worms. 
if he refused crickets he got no worms, his brain cell kicked in and he started taking crickets again. 
you could try this with crickets and mealworms


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

scalestails&shells said:


> Thought I'd read somewhere that the basking spot should be a bit higher.... I'll accept that I'm incorrect, then. :blush:
> 
> (Having just checked the conversion, my dragon's hot end is usually between 87 and 96, so I'm not cooking him!)


 

this is a common belief but in my experience not true
if you try and aim for a max of 105deg you will fined they grow better
in that statement i mean they put better weight on,,,, better with less dehydration


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

I use locust and roaches for my critters, I hate using crickets so thats my reason :lol2:


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## Nix (Jan 23, 2008)

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> I use locust and roaches for my critters, I hate using crickets so thats my reason :lol2:


 Roaches are ace but my froggies won't eat them or locusts so crix it is :devil:


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

Nix said:


> Roaches are ace but my froggies won't eat them or locusts so crix it is :devil:


Really?! My frogs will eat anything they get their mouthes on :lol2: Well the red eyes are a bit more fussy, so locust for them it is.
I have 1 fussy leo who will only touch roaches, the rest are opento anything that moves :lol2:


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## Nix (Jan 23, 2008)

I know fussy bloody frogs, I had to practically half starve them to get them to eat brown crickets instead of bandeds as my supplier was having problems getting the bandeds in. Fortunately they are on these now. They do like my custodian insects though. The woodlice get nommed.

OP - sorry for taking it OT!


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

123dragon said:


> what i want to know is why do you come on here and ask for help and then when people give you advise you tell them they are wrong ect .
> and anyway i would say 20 crickets is fine.
> 
> now i might get flamed for thinking this but my beardie went throw a time of not wanting crickets so what i did was after he had eaten at least 10 crickets he got some morio worms.
> ...


now THAT is a good idea! I shall try that with crickets and some form of worm for the reward.

Well if anyone asks for advice but gets told what they know is wrong then I think its a given that they wouldn't take that advice, and if people are wrong it's good to correct them especially when it effects an animals life. Its like if someone was depressed and they ask for advice, and someone suggests they top themselves, the depressed person shouldn't take that advice, its bad advice, and you wouldn't blame them for not taking that advice and telling them its wrong/their not doing it........ hopefully you get what I mean.

I'll see if they have any worms at my local pet stores, my nearest one sometimes has these plastic brown pots, they might be worms.... just don't wana pulll the lid off and be covered in a swam of flies or something just as bad lol


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

AFC said:


> I wish people would learn to spell.:whistling2:


I wish people would learn about disabilities...... that's just plain offensive. I want to teach, so I've seen the effects people like you can have on people, thanks to people like you my partner was written off as dumb and left school with 1 GCSE as a result, and my brother was called dumb by his teachers until the age of 12, when he moved to secondary school and they actually listened and he was diagnosed with dyslexia. Me, I'm not too bad with it, but I fight it more and I've learnt to cope hence its less clear... you have no idea the effort I make to spell this way.... but on behalf of the dyslexic community thanks for the stick, it hasn't destroyed lives or anything..... bullying is the cause of many suicides, so well done, I hope you feel good about what you've just done


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

DaveG1973 said:


> Reading the bulk of this thread i think the poster should have got herself a barbie doll rather than a bearded dragon...
> They come with instructions too i believe.
> 
> Comes on here asking for help/advice and then shoots 75% of the helpers down....
> ...


Cyber bullying causes countless suicides a year, good to know your ok with contributing....... Have a nice day


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## oscarsi001 (Feb 28, 2011)

flutter said:


> as i don't know of a baby dragon that will not eat crics, locs or in fact anything that moves- he eats them, just not as many as people think he should, he only ate 20 brown crickets a day (that was the the average count a week or so ago, since then he's been in shed, and I've switched him from brown to black crickets, for some reason my local store had black instead of their usual brown)
> 
> every pet shop or even pets at home have baby loc,s so i think its just a case of educating this member- nope, mine has small ones just not small enough unfortunately, coz in all honesty this is what I wanted to feed on because their better for him than crickets


my feelings on this matter are that just maybe you should get a good herp vet to give him the once over and then if he finds nothing amiss just take a look at your husbandry to check light/heat levels are all within what are generally accepted parameters, if your ambient temps and light levels are not high enough , he may just be not firing on all cylinders and thereby have a suppressed appetite.maybe just keeping a weight/growth graph would put your mind at rest to ensure he is not losing weight?

my young beardies are only 6" s-v yet will devour full grown locusts/roaches/morio with ease (which are way larger than their eyebrow distance) , and quite frankly i am so fed up with escapee crickets living noisily quite happily for waaaaaay too long , i would be quite happy to never bring another one in the house again whereas the dubia are so sluggish out of their box that on the rare occasion one escapes it never gets that far . 

of course, you may just have a 'runt' that is never so ill that there is anything to treat, but he will never get that big or have that great an appetite and, in all liklihood, not have survived were he to have hatched in the wild ........


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## Tetley (Feb 26, 2011)

flutter said:


> Im going into the teaching profession so people not listening to what I'm saying is a pet peeve, there's a reason we have RTFQ (Read The F***ing Question), its because of teachers like me :lol2: So you understand when I get irate when people don't answer the question.


Heh, I'm a teacher and I can promise you now if this is a pet peeve, you will get upset fairly quickly (if it's secondary you are looking at, no idea on primary). I teach at a grammar school, and I have daily encounters with girls who don't listen to what I'm saying, or don't answer the question in front of them, but rather the one that is in their head...still love the job though 

Good luck with that - I find it's the most rewarding thing I have ever done. Bloody hard work though! I think the challenge is the best thing about it though, and the fact that no day will ever be the same as the last 

On the beardie front, I have no advice to give, since I do not and never have owned a beardie, only a leo - I just got excited when you said you wanted to teach lol I'm so sad! :whistling2:


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## throbmagon (Nov 4, 2010)

*locusts*

Our dragons were also afraid of crickets! We started to feed them locusts but they still do not eat very much. They are very lazy when it comes to feeding prefering to be hand fed the small amount of veg they eat and will only take water out of a dropper.
We are trying to breed the locusts now, we have followed everything to the letter but the eggs keep turning black and dying?
Any ideas?


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

oscarsi001 said:


> my feelings on this matter are that just maybe you should get a good herp vet to give him the once over and then if he finds nothing amiss just take a look at your husbandry to check light/heat levels are all within what are generally accepted parameters, if your ambient temps and light levels are not high enough , he may just be not firing on all cylinders and thereby have a suppressed appetite.maybe just keeping a weight/growth graph would put your mind at rest to ensure he is not losing weight?
> 
> my young beardies are only 6" s-v yet will devour full grown locusts/roaches/morio with ease (which are way larger than their eyebrow distance) , and quite frankly i am so fed up with escapee crickets living noisily quite happily for waaaaaay too long , i would be quite happy to never bring another one in the house again whereas the dubia are so sluggish out of their box that on the rare occasion one escapes it never gets that far .
> 
> of course, you may just have a 'runt' that is never so ill that there is anything to treat, but he will never get that big or have that great an appetite and, in all liklihood, not have survived were he to have hatched in the wild ........


Done, done and,,,,,,, done.

He's growing a pooping as he should which is what gets me surely reduced diet= poor growth and less poop. I guess I might just have a super efficient dragon :flrt:


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## The Doug (Aug 2, 2010)

flutter said:


> I wish people would read.......... :lol2:
> 
> I doubt whether he'd take locus. My local pet stores don't stock locus small enough and I'm not bulk buying them online, they'd escape, be too many to care for for too long until the supply has dwindled down.
> 
> ...


What's a cocking hazard? :blush:


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

throbmagon said:


> Our dragons were also afraid of crickets! We started to feed them locusts but they still do not eat very much. They are very lazy when it comes to feeding prefering to be hand fed the small amount of veg they eat and will only take water out of a dropper.
> We are trying to breed the locusts now, we have followed everything to the letter but the eggs keep turning black and dying?
> Any ideas?


Thanks! Good to know I'm not the only one, mine runs away from crickets sometimes. Think I'm guna try and crack my locus problems, coz thats the staple I want to use. I'll have a chat with the place I get my food from, see what they say.


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

The Doug said:


> What's a cocking hazard? :blush:


pmsl choking..... that was the google chrome version of iPhone autocorrect fails lol


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

Tetley said:


> Heh, I'm a teacher and I can promise you now if this is a pet peeve, you will get upset fairly quickly (if it's secondary you are looking at, no idea on primary). I teach at a grammar school, and I have daily encounters with girls who don't listen to what I'm saying, or don't answer the question in front of them, but rather the one that is in their head...still love the job though
> 
> Good luck with that - I find it's the most rewarding thing I have ever done. Bloody hard work though! I think the challenge is the best thing about it though, and the fact that no day will ever be the same as the last
> 
> On the beardie front, I have no advice to give, since I do not and never have owned a beardie, only a leo - I just got excited when you said you wanted to teach lol I'm so sad! :whistling2:


Most teachers get exited with other people wanting to teach which is great. And nah, its a good pet peeve for teaching science I find, because not reading the question counts for a lot of mistakes in science!


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

flutter said:


> pmsl choking..... that was the google chrome version of iPhone autocorrect fails lol


I have to say they really arnt. Mealworms can be used as a staple and are used all over the world by breaders, keepers and general beardie keepers. 

I do hate it when people recite myths and general untruths without facts. There are numerious threads, papers, and acadamic journal articles where this is disproven. one of which has already been linked in latter pages. mealworms are fine. As you said earlier on, if one is wrong, you should correct them. Well we are all trying to correct you. There is nothing wrong with meal worms. it is a myth recited by people incorrectly that is intwinded with so many things now its unreal. The paper linked earlier on and others can be provided to prove this if you still doubt it. There is nothing wrong with gut loaded mealworms. 

There is nothing wrong with using gutloaded mealworms from straight out of the egg untill the moment of death. They are absolulty fine. 

To you point on the previous page, waxworms are good as a treat and are the quilivant to reptile choclate. These are in the little coloured pots usually. 

jay


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## DaveG1973 (Mar 1, 2011)

flutter said:


> Cyber bullying causes countless suicides a year, good to know your ok with contributing....... Have a nice day


 

If you consider that as bullying good luck in your teaching career !!!


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

DaveG1973 said:


> If you consider that as bullying good luck in your teaching career !!!


I don't need luck, I've not even started my PGCE (teaching qualification) and I already have countless job offers from some of the best schools in the country!

Bullies bully because of their own insecurities, so what is it with you? I use to mentor so I have many numbers I can give you to help you out, and failing that I can refer you to somewhere that can help. I'd give you places you can go, but I doubt your where I'm based.


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

Spikebrit said:


> I have to say they really arnt. Mealworms can be used as a staple and are used all over the world by breaders, keepers and general beardie keepers.
> 
> I do hate it when people recite myths and general untruths without facts. There are numerious threads, papers, and acadamic journal articles where this is disproven. one of which has already been linked in latter pages. mealworms are fine. As you said earlier on, if one is wrong, you should correct them. Well we are all trying to correct you. There is nothing wrong with meal worms. it is a myth recited by people incorrectly that is intwinded with so many things now its unreal. The paper linked earlier on and others can be provided to prove this if you still doubt it. There is nothing wrong with gut loaded mealworms.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm going to read the papers on it and stuff, then I can make my own decision. Why wouldn't I, I'm not the cyber bullies that can't admit that what they did was wrong.......... That guy who called me a moron can actually be done for assault. I'm not even kidding, if he did it in person it'd be verbal assault, can't remember what its called in writing.

I'll get back to you guys about the research, because I've just graduated from my chemistry degree so I can look and see if its good research. Unfortunately not all research is good and people see what they want to see with their results, at the end of the day writing a paper that confirms what everyone knew already does suck lol.


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

Libel! It just came to me then. I can't believe that RFUK want to be associated with this kind of behaviour, all the other forums I've been on for my other pets tend to delete this kind of abuse soon as it is found, and it makes for a very pleasant forum. I duno, I guess that RFUK is maybe different, this isn't the 1st case I've seen of RFUK members behaving in this way unfortunately. I have a beardeddragon.org account already, they're good but not as rapid response as on here. Can anybody else recommend another forum? because if the moderators don't sort this matter out I'll have to leave, some of you are amazingly helpful but I don't want to support this other negative behaviour, it can have too many negative effects and I've had too many people pass from people like this bullying them. Its just sad that other people's ego can cause such a loss, and they can't even change their ways when educated.


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## imginy (Jun 14, 2009)

I am pretty sure this flutter is a troll


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

SkinheadOi85 said:


> I dont think is a case of it not being approved as such FLutter, I feel people are asking so they can get a bigger picture and see if a different veiw point can cast any help....perhaps pics of the set up?? (mainly cos im nosy and like looking at set ups for inspiration)
> 
> Congratrs on going into teaching very rewarding job...alas tho you struggle talking to people how do you cope in a classroom situation??? (may help using the same stratergies and coping mechs in principle to talkng on the telephone)


They're kids, I'm fine with kids, you could make the biggest mistake and they've found something new to amuse them a week later. Our biology teacher killed a hamster in class, by the next day it was old news and non of them cared. I duno, talking to kids doesn't bother me, like give me a class of 30 to teach I'm fine, but give me a presentation in front of just 1 adult like for interviews and it terrifies me, most people pretend the people in presentations are naked, I pretend they're all kids........ lol


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

I've looked at the link previously posted about the mealworms, so far only got through the chitin part. I found the paper it posted as a reference for that table of chitin content and in the discussion section it discusses the fact that their values do not match up with their references and the reason given for this is 'unknown'. So unfortunately this is not looking like a reliable source. Also its reasons for exoskeletons appearing in faeces is lacking in research, or at least isn't showing its research. To conclude what it did for exoskeletons in faeces it would need to do controlled studies on correctly kept dragons, overfed dragons, dragons with parasites and dragons that are too cold, which that there is no evidence that it did. I've not yet finished reading but I'll get back to you.


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

Another problem is that they don't directly measure chitin levels, they measure the amount of nitrogen and amino acids, and its hard to say what proportion of amino acid and nitrogen is chitin and not some other source, so this is not really reliable.


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

I'd link the article but I'm using the university's subscription to access it, so linking it won't work. Not sure if anyone will be able to find it on google scholar? I want to copy and paste the abstract and conclusion, but I think that breaks copywrite laws........ I know I can reference it but I don't think referencing means can can literally just copy and paste.

Basically the article doesn't conclude that mealworms contain more chitin, all they do is say about amounts of amino acids and proteins, that's all they conclude.


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

The paper is from Zoo Biology, Volume 26, Issue 2. Its 'Estimate of Chitin in Raw Whole Insects' by Mark D. Finke.


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

Hey, this paper contains a table of chitin estimates that actually says the amount of chitin is higher in mealworms, I mean the results aren't reliable anyway, but it begs the question where did this guy get them numbers from to quote in his article, coz so far they look fabricated because the reference her says they're from doesn't agree with them figures........


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## flutter (Jun 20, 2011)

ah, he took the figures for superworms not meal worms for his meal worm figures. Its conclusive, the guys figures are wrong!

I'm not saying he meant to use incorrect figures, coz the numbers are right next to each other in the table, its an easy mistake, but the figures are wrong hence making this section of the link posted previously incorrect :sad:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

flutter said:


> Yeah, I'm going to read the papers on it and stuff, then I can make my own decision. Why wouldn't I, I'm not the cyber bullies that can't admit that what they did was wrong.......... That guy who called me a moron can actually be done for assault. I'm not even kidding, if he did it in person it'd be verbal assault, can't remember what its called in writing.
> 
> I'll get back to you guys about the research, because I've just graduated from my chemistry degree so I can look and see if its good research. Unfortunately not all research is good and people see what they want to see with their results, at the end of the day writing a paper that confirms what everyone knew already does suck lol.


The resaerch has been written and undertaken by qualifed individuals who hold PhD's in the relvent area.

If it was not decent resarch i would not recomend you reading, i'm a qualified psychologist, finishing a PhD, who works in research every day at a well known university. I also teach. So trust me its good research. 

But trust whatevery one, who has more expereince then you is saying, mealworms are fine. There area few memebers replying here, myself including who have a lot of experience, i have book chapters and papers on the subject as well, and we are saying mealworms are fine. its and old myth that they are not, which is recited time and time again by inexperienced individuals who dont know what they are talking about. 

And regarding you comment on cyber bullying, as far as i am aware there is prenelty no leglislation on cyber bullying and no chages can yet be brought. Though this is under review. 

Jay


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

flutter said:


> ah, he took the figures for superworms not meal worms for his meal worm figures. Its conclusive, the guys figures are wrong!
> 
> I'm not saying he meant to use incorrect figures, coz the numbers are right next to each other in the table, its an easy mistake, but the figures are wrong hence making this section of the link posted previously incorrect :sad:


I think you have got a tad confused. 

I'll summerise for you, meal worms, although high in chiten, beardies have no issues with digestion or consumption. Correclty supplemented and gut loaded they are fine. I am ahppy to being in a very long list of reference to support this, if you so wish. 

Jay


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## kirky1980 (Apr 4, 2010)

i personaly cant believe this thread is still going afterall you spoke to woodrott on the first or 2nd page. you do know he is one of the most respected breeders of high end morphed bearded dragons in the uk and most possibly europe aswell dont you. he knows his stuff far better than 99% of people on here and it bewilders me that you chose not to accept his advice and help but yet keep looking for advice :bash:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

kirky1980 said:


> i personaly cant believe this thread is still going afterall you spoke to woodrott on the first or 2nd page. you do know he is one of the most respected breeders of high end morphed bearded dragons in the uk and most possibly europe aswell dont you. he knows his stuff far better than 99% of people on here and it bewilders me that you chose not to accept his advice and help but yet keep looking for advice :bash:


Your not the only one its frustrating, its like talking to a brick wall. 

jay


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## kirky1980 (Apr 4, 2010)

Spikebrit said:


> Your not the only one its frustrating, its like talking to a brick wall.
> 
> jay


i think even a brick wall would of admitted defeat after 10 pages of this nonsense.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I've locked this thread, it's 50% off topic, 40% fighting, and 10% actual relevant information / discussion. I don't see anything constructive coming from it at this stage.


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