# Can't believe Surrey DWA Costs



## Caiman-Chris (Sep 28, 2011)

Still can't get over the Surrey DWA initial cost of £1700, I know keeping Paleosuchus Palpebrosus is not cheap but I am more than prepared to part with costs in constructing the enclosure and maintaining the animals care.
Even the initial cost of £1700 is doable but a continuing annual fee of £880 seems so much more expensive than other UK council DWA costs. 

Forgive me for asking but am I right in thinking the running costs i.e, heating, water filtering, cleaning and obviously feeding of Crocodilians is relatively cheaper than £880 per annum? 

DWA is without doubt necessary to separate impulse buyers from keen knowledgeable enthusiasts yet I can't help but think its the vets survey visit that really matters in judging whether the potential owner can handle the animal plus the public liability insurance provides fundamental cover. I just feel the council are taking what they can because I live in Surrey rather than providing any benefit apart from a document which the vet approves. 

Thanks for your time.


----------



## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

It's negotiable mate. always is.


----------



## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

Wow! Is that the most expensive in the country??


----------



## Caiman-Chris (Sep 28, 2011)

Moshpitviper said:


> It's negotiable mate. always is.


I would love to believe that it is and if you can offer any advice to bring them down I would be more than interested to listen up.


----------



## Caiman-Chris (Sep 28, 2011)

"Genseric"

From all the areas i have looked at it does seem to be the most expensive by far. Most areas are £300 max with a £100 renewal. That is actually doable.


----------



## firece_creatures (May 28, 2008)

*council*

Move house mate to somewhere else ... that is a joke !!

Or you could get a pet shop license :whistling2:


----------



## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

hiya
£200 over here:Na_Na_Na_Na:

thats a rip, is there any dwa keepers in your area?

sounds like a concil that hates dwa, if it is there's little point trying to get 1 as they can refuse a dwal for stupid (made up) reasons.


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Caiman-Chris said:


> Still can't get over the Surrey DWA initial cost of £1700, I know keeping Paleosuchus Palpebrosus is not cheap but I am more than prepared to part with costs in constructing the enclosure and maintaining the animals care.
> Even the initial cost of £1700 is doable but a continuing annual fee of £880 seems so much more expensive than other UK council DWA costs.
> 
> Forgive me for asking but am I right in thinking the running costs i.e, heating, water filtering, cleaning and obviously feeding of Crocodilians is relatively cheaper than £880 per annum?
> ...


Charges of £1,700 are unlawful, what do they charge for a Pet Shop Licence?


----------



## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Caiman-Chris said:


> Still can't get over the Surrey DWA initial cost of £1700, I know keeping Paleosuchus Palpebrosus is not cheap but I am more than prepared to part with costs in constructing the enclosure and maintaining the animals care.
> Even the initial cost of £1700 is doable but a *continuing annual fee of £880* seems so much more expensive than other UK council DWA costs.
> 
> Forgive me for asking but am I right in thinking the running costs i.e, heating, water filtering, cleaning and obviously feeding of Crocodilians is relatively cheaper than £880 per annum?
> ...


I believe that DWA licences now run for two years, i that is teh case, the council should not be charging every year.


----------



## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

Caiman-Chris said:


> Still can't get over the Surrey DWA initial cost of £1700, I know keeping Paleosuchus Palpebrosus is not cheap but I am more than prepared to part with costs in constructing the enclosure and maintaining the animals care.
> Even the initial cost of £1700 is doable but a continuing annual fee of £880 seems so much more expensive than other UK council DWA costs.
> 
> Forgive me for asking but am I right in thinking the running costs i.e, heating, water filtering, cleaning and obviously feeding of Crocodilians is relatively cheaper than £880 per annum?
> ...


Wow, that is ridiculous. I live in Hampshire...Looking to get DWA next year at some point and it's £250 for 2 years excluding the inital vet assement obviously. 

That's stupidly unfair if they don't budge!


----------



## cobe (Nov 24, 2010)

this sounds crazy??? £1700 is just an insane price.... i would find out how much a PSL is with the local council...


----------



## ChopChop (Mar 18, 2011)

£1700:gasp: you will have vet fees on top of that!!! 

To give you an example my licence and inspection ( Oldham Council )...

Licence fee £237....£97 per year, Vet Fee £335

I would definatly look into getting a PSL pal I wish I did its considerably cheap with my council anyways think its around £170.

Good look anyways pal


----------



## ChopChop (Mar 18, 2011)

ChopChop said:


> £1700:gasp: you will have vet fees on top of that!!!
> 
> To give you an example my licence and inspection ( Oldham Council )...
> 
> ...


By the way my DWAL is for Paleosuchus Palpebrosus


----------



## Caiman-Chris (Sep 28, 2011)

Firstly thank you to everyone commenting including the post about me moving home only I don't see the wife agreeing.

So how do I go about a pet shop licence do I literally have to prove that I am buying and selling or can i just open a company name and operate from home?
It could be worthwhile if it brings the cost down. I will phone them Monday and tell you all the outcome. 

Yes I just can't believe the 1700 as well as the 880 per year although someone said its every two years so I will have words regarding that. The Vet bill is 70 quid plus his call out charge so I have no idea why that is so much cheaper. The insurance with pet exotics was estimated at 45 quid so that is also a bargain.

Just a shame really, a Caiman is the only pet I really want and although costly originally apart from the enclosure the idea was they would be cheaper than a dog or cat but this is just ridiculous. Perhaps I should speak to my council and let them know just how disgraceful their prices are compared to other councils. 

Unfortunately I know of no other person with a DWA in Surrey......I wander why?????


----------



## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

Caiman-Chris said:


> Firstly thank you to everyone commenting including the post about me moving home only I don't see the wife agreeing.
> 
> So how do I go about a pet shop licence do I literally have to prove that I am buying and selling or can i just open a company name and operate from home?
> It could be worthwhile if it brings the cost down. I will phone them Monday and tell you all the outcome.
> ...


Mate are you sure? 

http://www.guildford.gov.uk/article/8043/Fees---animal-licences

The fees in Guildford? are £250 I take it your not in Guildford? Move? Lol


----------



## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

That's me, i'm in Surrey , registered at Guildford . Depends where you're applying in Surrey? Not Chobham by any chance? I used to live there and was told the same ludicrous fees, so I moved 

Cheers,
Al


----------



## Caiman-Chris (Sep 28, 2011)

Unfortunately not the Guildford side the Surrey Heath Side but I might just see what Guildford say. Its ridiculously un-affordable :bash:

I wander if there's a single DWA area that comes close to 1700 and 880 per annum. If not then I have a strong case to bring them down but someone has said its always negotiable. 

Will wait and see.


----------



## Caiman-Chris (Sep 28, 2011)

Thanks for everyone's input. Spoke with the vet who would be carrying out the inspection who is happy with my plans. The council are not budging from their costs so looks like my plans are on hold for the time being. 

See what happens........


----------



## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

Caiman-Chris said:


> Thanks for everyone's input. Spoke with the vet who would be carrying out the inspection who is happy with my plans. The council are not budging from their costs so looks like my plans are on hold for the time being.
> 
> See what happens........


Stupid! Did you ask about the PSL? To see if that was any cheaper?


----------



## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

Caiman-Chris said:


> Thanks for everyone's input. Spoke with the vet who would be carrying out the inspection who is happy with my plans. The council are not budging from their costs so looks like my plans are on hold for the time being.
> 
> See what happens........


I would PM chris for some advice on the legalities mate. 

Its my understanding that the costs for DWAL have to be justifiable. Ie they can't use excessive cost to preclude anyone getting it.

Have you contacted them to ask for a specific breakdown of the £1700? If you haven't, I would...


----------



## beaniebopps (Oct 4, 2009)

Lord Vetinari said:


> I would PM chris for some advice on the legalities mate.
> 
> Its my understanding that the costs for DWAL have to be justifiable. Ie they can't use excessive cost to preclude anyone getting it.
> 
> Have you contacted them to ask for a specific breakdown of the £1700? If you haven't, I would...


Justifiable my :!: ! They just make up whatever figure they want. How can the council in area of a city charge 10x as much as the council for the neighbouring area, just with as many people living in it etc. 

I don't believe there is any consistancy whatsoever or that it is a fair system


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

beaniebopps said:


> Justifiable my :!: ! They just make up whatever figure they want. How can the council in area of a city charge 10x as much as the council for the neighbouring area, just with as many people living in it etc.
> 
> I don't believe there is any consistancy whatsoever or that it is a fair system


You are quite correct there is no consistency, and that is one of the fundamental fallings of the DWAA. Notwithstanding that Local Authorities cannot simply “pluck a figure out of the air”, well, they can and do, but legally they cannot, and that is why it is important that rogue LA’s are taken to task. Local Authorities are only permitted to recover costs, not make a profit or use punitive charges to deter applicants. Any LA charging more than £200/£250, excluding vet fees, is unlikely to be acting lawfully and should be challenged!


----------



## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

beaniebopps said:


> Justifiable my :!: ! They just make up whatever figure they want. How can the council in area of a city charge 10x as much as the council for the neighbouring area, just with as many people living in it etc.
> 
> I don't believe there is any consistancy whatsoever or that it is a fair system


i agree, where i live its £210, solihul (6.0miles away says google maps) its £1600:bash:


----------



## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

beaniebopps said:


> Justifiable my :!: ! They just make up whatever figure they want. How can the council in area of a city charge 10x as much as the council for the neighbouring area, just with as many people living in it etc.
> 
> I don't believe there is any consistancy whatsoever or that it is a fair system


I never said there was constistancy or that it was fair. Just that it was my understanding that the costs had to legally be justifiable as an LA couldn't make money from it, just recover costs.


Edit : just read Chris' comment.... All that basically.


----------



## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

Move to Salford.... the human residents are more dangerous than any snake and hence the fee is £161 for 2 years Dangerous wild animals - Salford City Council


----------



## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

My council is bumping it up from £150 to £250 next year, not that i'm bothered but it's only £100 extra, but wonder why they need an extra £100?:hmm:


----------



## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

nsn89 said:


> My council is bumping it up from £150 to £250 next year, not that i'm bothered but it's only £100 extra, but wonder why they need an extra £100?:hmm:


To paint nice shiny white lines on the road


----------



## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

mstypical said:


> To paint nice shiny white lines on the road


Most likely :bash:lol. 

I will ask for breakdown as last month they said yes it will be £146 for 2 years, and they sent me an email last week saying it will be £250 next year. I'm hoping the extra £100 is put towards some free mice :whistling2:


----------



## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

nsn89 said:


> Most likely :bash:lol.
> 
> I will ask for breakdown as last month they said yes it will be £146 for 2 years, and they sent me an email last week saying it will be £250 next year. I'm hoping the extra £100 is put towards some free mice :whistling2:


My third party insurance for my exempted dog just went up from £26 to £80 per annum. Add to that the fact that it is only payable by postal order, and they are taking the royal p**s.


----------



## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

mstypical said:


> My third party insurance for my exempted dog just went up from £26 to £80 per annum. Add to that the fact that it is only payable by postal order, and they are taking the royal p**s.


Everything is going up these days apart from the price of the actual pet lol.


----------



## spidersnake (Dec 1, 2009)

Caiman-Chris said:


> Thanks for everyone's input. Spoke with the vet who would be carrying out the inspection who is happy with my plans. The council are not budging from their costs so looks like my plans are on hold for the time being.
> 
> See what happens........


Your best bet is to go to the CAB, seek legal advice & see if surrounding counsels will give you a written breakdown of their costs for a DWAL. Also, see if the financial ombudsman (sp) is willing to help. He is there to stop Mr & Mrs John Q Taxpayer from being ripped off, he is on your side.
Dont be scared of taking these counsels to court. I'm from Surrey origionally, got screwed by the counsel over my house repairs, got all the legal advice I was entitled to & shook the corridors of power.
That was 8 years ago & I'm still refusing invites to join the Masons.


----------



## Caiman-Chris (Sep 28, 2011)

nsn89 said:


> Stupid! Did you ask about the PSL? To see if that was any cheaper?


Yeah I looked into the PSL and it was around £300 for the first year and around £200 to renew every year after.... so a hell of a lot cheaper.

Unfortunately this wasn't without a catch, firstly they knew originally I had applied for DWA and questioned pricing so I imagine they suspected I wasn't looking to actually run a pet shop. Secondly there would be a vast amount of documentation as a business resulting in changes to council tax and fire safety that would probably incur costs over what DWA is offering. 

They are getting back to me with a cost breakdown of the DWA and how I can obtain a PSL so I will see exactly how they respond and paste their email.


----------



## Caiman-Chris (Sep 28, 2011)

spidersnake said:


> Your best bet is to go to the CAB, seek legal advice & see if surrounding counsels will give you a written breakdown of their costs for a DWAL. Also, see if the financial ombudsman (sp) is willing to help. He is there to stop Mr & Mrs John Q Taxpayer from being ripped off, he is on your side.
> Dont be scared of taking these counsels to court. I'm from Surrey origionally, got screwed by the counsel over my house repairs, got all the legal advice I was entitled to & shook the corridors of power.
> That was 8 years ago & I'm still refusing invites to join the Masons.



Thanks for this, I will definitely start this procedure. I have asked for a breakdown of costs which I imagine is making them nervous and I will ask for a breakdown from another council and then follow the rest of your advice. I don't really want to go down this route but a person who can give a DWA animal a good home and great quality of life life surely deserves more rights compared to a dog owner providing a poor quality of life.


----------



## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

mstypical said:


> To paint nice shiny white lines on the road


It all goes in the kitty for the xmas council piss up ..

Really, it would seem that even if you challenge the LA over the fee they just get you with restrictions anyway . This is what happened in Chobham . They make it completely impossible to meet all the requirements


----------



## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

We are about to start offering pre-DWA application assessments which are aimes at being able to give applicants the opportunity to have their potential set ups reviewed before they go down the route of given their LA any money.

The idea is that it give some leverage when it comes to spurious conditions being placed on them.


----------



## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

nsn89 said:


> My council is bumping it up from £150 to £250 next year, not that i'm bothered but it's only £100 extra, but wonder why they need an extra £100?:hmm:


expenses? (a new car)


----------



## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

fardilis said:


> expenses? (a new car)


Hmmm, my MP lives round the corner from me so il keep a check, and see if he has a new car haha.


----------



## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

slippery42 said:


> We are about to start offering pre-DWA application assessments which are aimes at being able to give applicants the opportunity to have their potential set ups reviewed before they go down the route of given their LA any money.
> 
> The idea is that it give some leverage when it comes to spurious conditions being placed on them.


Interesting...

What form would these assesments take? A full blown visit? Or something more like a checklist and examples of enclosures etc?


----------



## davidfitch (Nov 19, 2008)

Any word back on the breakdown of costs?


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

slippery42 said:


> We are about to start offering pre-DWA application assessments which are aimes at being able to give applicants the opportunity to have their potential set ups reviewed before they go down the route of given their LA any money.
> 
> The idea is that it give some leverage when it comes to spurious conditions being placed on them.


How is this going to work? The fundamental problem is government has never issued guidance to Local Authorities on implementing the DWAA, therefore LA’s can interpret the legislation as they see fit. I am not certain how an independent assessment can help applicants unless the LA concerned will give specific requirements, which invariably they don’t do!


----------



## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Chris Newman said:


> How is this going to work? The fundamental problem is government has never issued guidance to Local Authorities on implementing the DWAA, therefore LA’s can interpret the legislation as they see fit. I am not certain how an independent assessment can help applicants unless the LA concerned will give specific requirements, which invariably they don’t do!


PM sent Chris!


----------



## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

Just found out my council is actually only £50 for the DWAL. Amazing how much difference there is, it should just be a set fee nationally.


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Caiman-Chris said:


> Yeah I looked into the PSL and it was around £300 for the first year and around £200 to renew every year after.... so a hell of a lot cheaper.
> 
> Unfortunately this wasn't without a catch, firstly they knew originally I had applied for DWA and questioned pricing so I imagine they suspected I wasn't looking to actually run a pet shop. Secondly there would be a vast amount of documentation as a business resulting in changes to council tax and fire safety that would probably incur costs over what DWA is offering.
> 
> They are getting back to me with a cost breakdown of the DWA and how I can obtain a PSL so I will see exactly how they respond and paste their email.


If they charge £1700 for a DWAA and £300 for a PSL (which is expensive by the way) then they are on a very sticky wicket and I would suggest that if you appealed this to the Magistrates Court, as you are entitled to do, they would have some difficulties. Alternatively you could make a complaint to the Local Authorities Ombudsman, ordinarily they are not usually helpful in DWAA matters because of the lack of guidance from Defra. However, in this case because of the disparity in charges they might, and its free to you!


----------



## Caiman-Chris (Sep 28, 2011)

Chris Newman said:


> If they charge £1700 for a DWAA and £300 for a PSL (which is expensive by the way) then they are on a very sticky wicket and I would suggest that if you appealed this to the Magistrates Court, as you are entitled to do, they would have some difficulties. Alternatively you could make a complaint to the Local Authorities Ombudsman, ordinarily they are not usually helpful in DWAA matters because of the lack of guidance from Defra. However, in this case because of the disparity in charges they might, and its free to you!


I appreciate your advice as well as someone else who mentioned this to me and I will call them today. I have decided to still go ahead with a Caiman either way as I am not wasting months of research and all the travelling for advice as well as my desperate need to own and look after one. Thank you everyone.


----------



## Caiman-Chris (Sep 28, 2011)

Found out i would be the the only one in my entire borough with a DWA, wander why I may speak to magistrates but am just thinking to pay it.


----------



## bob109 (Jan 8, 2012)

Just want to know you got on,as ive looked in to geting a dwa,I live in notts licens cost is 
£1167 ,would like to know if what you did got the cost down


----------



## Caiman-Chris (Sep 28, 2011)

Hey bob109, in the end I had to admit to myself that nothing was going to change the costs and I just cannot afford it when considering the housing requirements when its full grown at around £8,000 on top of the licensing. Will just have to wait and see if there's another pet that suits me and do the research for it. Do have a good think about it before going ahead, I have spent eight months researching, talking to many Caiman owners and sellers and visiting enclosures before making the decision not to go ahead.

Take Care


----------



## bob109 (Jan 8, 2012)

sad to hear it just looking at cost at the mo,but looking more at couple of scorpions and trying to get the costs down,they should have one price not 200 there and 2000 there its pap it just prices people out of it and that not on you don't have to pay that much for a firearm, I also got told the price goes up by 2% just about every year dont know how they work that out,


----------



## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

bob109 said:


> sad to hear it just looking at cost at the mo,but looking more at couple of scorpions and trying to get the costs down,they should have one price not 200 there and 2000 there its pap it just prices people out of it and that not on you don't have to pay that much for a firearm, I also got told the price goes up by 2% just about every year dont know how they work that out,


Yeah it should be a fixed price, but then again council tax etc isn't the same everywhere - its up to the council.

Not sure about the 2%, but my council was £150 last year..I'm applying soon and it's now gone up to £250..not sure why. They said to bring it into line with neighbouring councils, even though the council next door the license is £50.


----------



## bob109 (Jan 8, 2012)

nsn89 said:


> Yeah it should be a fixed price, but then again council tax etc isn't the same everywhere - its up to the council.
> 
> Not sure about the 2%, but my council was £150 last year..I'm applying soon and it's now gone up to £250..not sure why. They said to bring it into line with neighbouring councils, even though the council next door the license is £50.


You should ask them if the neighbouring councils are putting up there price as well and if not then there price is not in line with other councils


----------



## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

bob109 said:


> You should ask them if the neighbouring councils are putting up there price as well and if not then there price is not in line with other councils


Yeah il have a look, but I doubt they will do anything. Lol.


----------



## rinkels (Jun 17, 2011)

nsn89 said:


> Yeah il have a look, but I doubt they will do anything. Lol.


most councils dont know the basic rules set by the goverment in the dwal ,charging high prices when it is only supose to cover adim cost is wrong,the problem most people face is the worry if they contest the fee ,the run the risk of point blank being refused.our £400.00 fee is i find wrong,like many others do.the dwal price should be set as the same as a psl.across the board and until this comes into affect (if ever)it makes people think more about keeping without dwal due to being so hard to obtain one.


----------



## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

rinkels said:


> most councils dont know the basic rules set by the goverment in the dwal ,charging high prices when it is only supose to cover adim cost is wrong,the problem most people face is the worry if they contest the fee ,the run the risk of point blank being refused.our £400.00 fee is i find wrong,like many others do.the dwal price should be set as the same as a psl.across the board and until this comes into affect (if ever)it makes people think more about keeping without dwal due to being so hard to obtain one.


Yeah totally understand. Although I'm not going to quibble the increase to £250, it's only another £1 a week over the two years, nothing il loose sleep over. 

But it should be uniform across the country or at least the prices should be reasonable. I think £250 is about fair for two years.


----------



## glennwbp (Apr 28, 2011)

mid devon council is just 95.00 + vets fee for dwa then 2 yearly renewal is just the vets fee..license is reissued on the basis of the visit alone!!


----------



## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

I've been following this with interest. Op its a shame you've been put off but as you say, if you've had a good think and decided you can't afford the animal then good on you for being realistic. 
Problem is, if nobody challenges these councils, nothing will ever change. As mentioned earlier, council tax differs depending on area HOWEVER councils ARE held accountable to some extent as they have to provide yearly breakdowns to residents on where their money has gone!
Is anybody/any organisation actually lobbying for change with regards to country-wide licence fees? Surely something can be done? I wouldn't let my council take the p:censor:s out of me that's for sure...but then i agree also if you challenge them you really have to be prepared for a long legal wrangle, i suspect..
They really have people by the short n curlies dont they?!


----------



## kaimarion (Dec 31, 2007)

In South Ayrshire a DWAL is £100.03 (plus vet fees)which is the exact same price as a PSL, apparently Paisley council charge £20 for a DWAL.


----------



## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

mstypical said:


> Move to Salford.... the human residents are more dangerous than any snake and hence the fee is £161 for 2 years Dangerous wild animals - Salford City Council




Hey - I resent that :lol2:

Although I am quite chuffed with the costs... however I am a bit miffed they dont allow you to choose the vet that you will be paying for the inspection. I want a reptile vet that I trust to do mine - someone I KNOW will flag up any potential problems and make suggestions.... unfortunately Salford wont allow this. (However the only decent local reptile vet is excellent so fingers crossed it will be him by default!)


----------

