# Boomslang



## Paulthebhoy

Are boomslang DWA?

Cheers.


----------



## joe_oasis

yep: victory:


----------



## Paulthebhoy

Cheers Joe


----------



## ViperLover

Yup - Highly venomous.

Does anybody know what their delivery system is like?


----------



## abandonallhope

Boomslangs are DWA - rear fanged.


----------



## lordbiggles

There is a little clip of a boomslang on the end of Viperkeepers latest offering, here:-

YouTube - The Mystery Mouse

Dont think I want one anymore


----------



## ian14

ViperLover said:


> Yup - Highly venomous.
> 
> Does anybody know what their delivery system is like?


You only need to read a book to find out.
They are rear fanged so to introduce venom they chew the prey to allow the venom to run down the external groove of the fang into the prey. As with most "rear fanged" species, the fangs are in fact situated under the eye, NOT at the rear of the jaw.


----------



## ViperLover

ian14 said:


> You only need to read a book to find out.
> They are rear fanged so to introduce venom they chew the prey to allow the venom to run down the external groove of the fang into the prey. As with most "rear fanged" species, the fangs are in fact situated under the eye, NOT at the rear of the jaw.


Ok cheers. Do some rear-fanged species have a better delivery system then others? or are they about the same...?



lordbiggles said:


> There is a little clip of a boomslang on the end of Viperkeepers latest offering, here:-
> 
> YouTube - The Mystery Mouse
> 
> Dont think I want one anymore


Yep, I saw that. He obviously didn't want to eat Chicks...lol


----------



## mad martin

They are the same. Rear fangers (the dangerous one's) make up for the poor delivery system by having very potent venoms.


----------



## pythondave82

ViperLover said:


> Yup - Highly venomous.
> 
> Does anybody know what their delivery system is like?


 
When you say 'delivery system', what do you mean? You were given basic information from Mark, several weeks ago! See below:

*Boomslang*
*The boomslang was considered potentially dangerous but whether or not it could kill a human was not confirmed until 1957 when Karl Patterson Schmidt, the eminent herpetologist at the Field Museum in Chicago, was tagged by a small specimen he was examining. He went home feeling unwell but called in to say he would be at work in a day or so. He never returned, it took three days but he died, probably of a brain haemorrhage since extensive internal bleeding is often the result of boomslang envenoming. At the time there was no boomslang antivenom so Schmidt was pretty much doomed from the onset.*
*There is antivenom now, in fact when I was in J'burg in 1997 I met the horse that they use for raising the monospecific boomslang antivenom, note I said "the horse", there was only one for boomslang (there may be more now). Someone on this thread said it was difficult for a boomslang to bite you. Not so, they have short wide mouths and their fangs are both large and positioned rather well forward for a rear-fanged snake (check out the image on p.15 of my Venomous Snakes of the World if you don't believe me). The venom is designed to deal with chameleons and weaver birds but unfortunately it also has a seriously deleterious effect on us. Bites are extremely serious, even from small specimens. Steve Spawls though he had been tagged when working in Botswana many years ago and immediately leapt into his Land Rover and drove over the border into S.Africa. Why? Because boomslang antivenom is in short supply, they are not easy to milk and antivenom is often only available in S.Africa. There may or may not be boomslang antivenom in the UK but my advice is take extreme care with these snakes as a death may be more likely following a bite, than from a cobra or a rattlesnake.*
*There are venomous snakes for which antivenom is either in short supply or does not yet exist (and may never) and a snakebite from one of these species, even with our advanced health care system, may not have a happy ending.*

Dave


----------



## mad martin

Add to that the fact that the venom takes along time to start actively working, makes it a very difficult snake bite to treat.
But saying that, if you get bit by a Boomslang you did something really really stupid. They rarely attempt to bite. In days past, I used to take wild captures and let them chill out on my head or something. They are very very docile, which is probably best


----------



## PDR

I have kept a number of Boomslangs in the past and have always found them to be fairly calm and easy to work with. They do have very good eyesight and can be very enthusiastic feeders. I used to keep several in one viv, but fed them separately.
I would normally get a dustbin and put a few mice into the bottom of the bin and then hook one of the Boomslangs into the bin and let him feed..... I would then throw some more mice into the cage for the other snake. After a while they got used to this and would be waiting..... I would open the cage and one or other of the Boomslangs would leap out of the cage into the bin and start eating the mice. I would keep an eye on them and then return the snake from the bin back into the viv.
I did watch “ViperKeepers” footage of trying to feed his Boomslang...... if, as in that case a snake switches from feeding mode to defensive / attack mode there is little point in continuing to tease the snake with a food item. 

Oh, and venom extraction only yields very low quantities of venom, I typically get less than 1mg of dried venom from each snake.... this explains why the AV for this species is costly and in short supply.


----------



## ViperLover

PDR said:


> I have kept a number of Boomslangs in the past and have always found them to be fairly calm and easy to work with. They do have very good eyesight and can be very enthusiastic feeders. I used to keep several in one viv, but fed them separately.
> I would normally get a dustbin and put a few mice into the bottom of the bin and then hook one of the Boomslangs into the bin and let him feed..... I would then throw some more mice into the cage for the other snake. After a while they got used to this and would be waiting..... I would open the cage and one or other of the Boomslangs would leap out of the cage into the bin and start eating the mice. I would keep an eye on them and then return the snake from the bin back into the viv.
> I did watch “ViperKeepers” footage of trying to feed his Boomslang...... if, as in that case a snake switches from feeding mode to defensive / attack mode there is little point in continuing to tease the snake with a food item.
> 
> Oh, and venom extraction only yields very low quantities of venom, I typically get less than 1mg of dried venom from each snake.... this explains why the AV for this species is costly and in short supply.


Very interesting.

Paul, do you currently keep snakes at you're house aswell as the LSTM Herpetarium? How much raw venom would be required to make one vial of Boomslang Antivenom?

And...Martin, you said "The dangerous ones" for Rear-fanged snakes..Does that mean then that Boomslangs are probably one of the most potent snakes throughout Africa? I was watching "Black Mamba: White Witch" two weeks ago, at the end of the program, Thea had to get a Boomslang out of a van, the narrator said the Boomslang was twice as toxic as a Black Mamba. Is this true? Are some Rear-fanged snakes more toxic then most of the Elapids and Viperids?

And Dave....cheers.


----------



## mad martin

Boomslang venom is far more potent than Black Mamba venom. I think "twice" is a big underestimation. It takes an absolute minute quantity of venom to kill. 

Dispholidus typus and the Thelotornis sp. have incredibly potent venoms as far as rear fanged African snakes go.


----------



## PDR

ViperLover said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> Paul, do you currently keep snakes at you're house aswell as the LSTM Herpetarium? How much raw venom would be required to make one vial of Boomslang Antivenom?


Sorry James, I don’t know the answer to the AV question.
I used to keep snakes at home up until about 1990. To be honest if you have been working with snakes all day the last thing you want is to arrive home and start doing exactly the same thing again. I'm out for at least 12 hours a day, so there is not a lot of time left once I get home.


----------



## mad martin

> I used to keep snakes at home up until about 1990. To be honest if you have been working with snakes all day the last thing you want is to arrive home and start doing exactly the same thing again


Ain't that the truth. Also when you go to friend's house after working with snakes for 12 hours and all they want to do is talk more snakes. None can understand that sometimes, even though I have a great passion for them, one really doesn't want anything to do with snakes for just a few minutes 



> Sorry James, I don’t know the answer to the AV question


I need to go to Mike Perry's place tomorrow, I will ask him.


----------



## PDR

mad martin said:


> Ain't that the truth. Also when you go to friend's house after working with snakes for 12 hours and all they want to do is talk more snakes. None can understand that sometimes, even though I have a great passion for them, one really doesn't want anything to do with snakes for just a few minutes
> 
> 
> I need to go to Mike Perry's place tomorrow, I will ask him.


Give Mike my regards when you see him.


----------



## mad martin

I will do so.


----------



## ViperLover

PDR said:


> Sorry James, I don’t know the answer to the AV question.
> I used to keep snakes at home up until about 1990. To be honest if you have been working with snakes all day the last thing you want is to arrive home and start doing exactly the same thing again. I'm out for at least 12 hours a day, so there is not a lot of time left once I get home.


I kind of had a feeling you would say that...But you never know if you don't ask. 

I bet you're nackered aswell after a days work? What with all those snakes giving you the run-around...must be a tireing job.


----------



## Jczreptiles

Im I correct in thinking that these fit into the colubrid family?


----------



## ViperLover

Jczreptiles said:


> Im I correct in thinking that these fit into the colubrid family?


Yeah...I think they do. Not 100% sure though...


----------



## SWMorelia

They do....


----------



## ViperLover

SW-morelia said:


> They do....


 
Cheers Mike...: victory:


----------



## mad martin

Taxonomy 101

Elapids: short, fixed front fangs. All are venomous.
Viperids (Viperidae): long, hinged front fangs. All are venomous. When you get into it, there are exceptions to the fang rule. The Causus sp. have short, front fangs but are classed as Viperids (due to the fang attachment).
Viperids (Crotalidae) : They possess heat sensing pits.
Colubrids (venomous): Fixed fangs to the rear of the mouth.


----------



## masticophis

ian14 said:


> You only need to read a book to find out.
> They are rear fanged so to introduce venom they chew the prey to allow the venom to run down the external groove of the fang into the prey. As with most "rear fanged" species, the fangs are in fact situated under the eye, NOT at the rear of the jaw.


Actually according to Dr Fry, they have a rudimentary pressurized delivery system, so a quick tag is enough, plus the groove is very deep in this species, also the fangs have a high degree of movement so are very easy to bring into play.

Mike


----------



## ViperLover

Sorry, but it's down to the experts for this one. I can't be doing with non-professional statements of "he said, she said" - It's either one or the other...everybody has a different prospective of Boomslangs and their abilities, and a lot of people under-estimate this species a whole lot in many different ways.

Dr. Wuster, PDR, Mark O'Shea.....Can either of you answer this please?

No disrespects....but it's just that everybody has a different image of a Boomslang, and I really would like to hear and know more about them, therefore I need a Professional word.


----------



## paraman

ViperLover said:


> Sorry, but it's down to the experts for this one. I can't be doing with non-professional statements of "he said, she said" -
> 
> I dont believe that you of all people wrote this, virtually all your posts comprise of rehashed he said she said.


----------



## pythondave82

ViperLover said:


> Sorry, but it's down to the experts for this one. I can't be doing with non-professional statements of "he said, she said" - It's either one or the other...everybody has a different prospective of Boomslangs and their abilities, and a lot of people under-estimate this species a whole lot in many different ways.
> 
> Dr. Wuster, PDR, Mark O'Shea.....Can either of you answer this please?
> 
> No disrespects....but it's just that everybody has a different image of a Boomslang, and I really would like to hear and know more about them, therefore I need a Professional word.


Gees, that’s rich coming from you ViperLover, I think Mark gave you enough advice on the first long-winded thread you started. Also, you keep going round and round in circles with these threads – the professionals will not reply to these threads because they are totally irrelevant.

You will also find that masticophis (Mike) has worked with RF colubrids for many years, his advice is totally correct – I think if you purchased Mark’s “Venomous Snakes of the World”, many of your very basic questions would be answered. (I can send you a copy if you want).

If you don’t want the advice from forum members, don’t ask so many questions, I’m sure WW, MOS and PR have better things to do than sit on RFUK all day answering your questions.

Cheers,

Dave


----------



## ViperLover

pythondave82 said:


> Gees, that’s rich coming from you ViperLover, I think Mark gave you enough advice on the first long-winded thread you started. Also, you keep going round and round in circles with these threads – the professionals will not reply to these threads because they are totally irrelevant.
> 
> You will also find that masticophis (Mike) has worked with RF colubrids for many years, his advice is totally correct – I think if you purchased Mark’s “Venomous Snakes of the World”, many of your very basic questions would be answered. (I can send you a copy if you want).
> 
> If you don’t want the advice from forum members, don’t ask so many questions, I’m sure WW, MOS and PR have better things to do than sit on RFUK all day answering your questions.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Dave


 
Mark's book is one of many Herp books on my wishlist, and is very near the top.

Dave, will PM you about that.

My comment wasnt virtually aimed at masticophis...but a couple of other people PMed me stuff on the boomslang which were completely different to eachother. I have no idea about boomslangs, I find them very complex and quite bizzar.


----------



## paulrimmer69

ViperLover said:


> Sorry, but it's down to the experts for this one. I can't be doing with non-professional statements of "he said, she said" - It's either one or the other...everybody has a different prospective of Boomslangs and their abilities, and a lot of people under-estimate this species a whole lot in many different ways.
> 
> Dr. Wuster, PDR, Mark O'Shea.....Can either of you answer this please?
> 
> No disrespects....but it's just that everybody has a different image of a Boomslang, and I really would like to hear and know more about them, therefore I need a Professional word.


omg james i cant believe you have just wrote that, i actually didnt think you could make a bigger fool out of yourself than you already have but you have just proved me wrong!


----------



## ian14

masticophis said:


> Actually according to Dr Fry, they have a rudimentary pressurized delivery system, so a quick tag is enough, plus the groove is very deep in this species, also the fangs have a high degree of movement so are very easy to bring into play.
> 
> Mike


Interesting. You learn something new every day! Thanks for highlighting this.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

I like Martin I have been working with Boomslang (Dispholidus typus) for many years. 
Generally speaking these animals are not aggressive but are highly venomous. 
For an example the Cape Cobra (Naja nivea) is the most toxic cobra in Africa and will kill an adult using 2 drops. 
One (1) drop of Boomslang venom will kill 15 to 20 people. Being back fanged means nothing when the animal is able to open its mouth to about 70 degrees.

The venom in question has a slow hemotoxin (blood destroying) toxin.
This animals venom is in my personal opinion the most toxic of all land living Squamata.


----------



## ViperLover

Snakes Incorporated said:


> I like Martin I have been working with Boomslang (Dispholidus typus) for many years.
> Generally speaking these animals are not aggressive but are highly venomous.
> For an example the Cape Cobra (Naja nivea) is the most toxic cobra in Africa and will kill an adult using 2 drops.
> One (1) drop of Boomslang venom will kill 15 to 20 people. Being back fanged means nothing when the animal is able to open its mouth to about 70 degrees.
> 
> The venom in question has a slow hemotoxin (blood destroying) toxin.
> This animals venom is in my personal opinion the most toxic of all land living Squamata.


 
Where about's would you say that the Boomslang was placed within the LD50 table?


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

The LD50 table is tested on mice not humans. These animals eat birds chameleons, geckos mostly. In the wild these animals do not really hunt mice but will eat the young if discovered.


----------



## Owzy

Ive posted this before but what the hell










I went to a reptile park in Kenya & they guys had them in an open enclosure with the trees overhanging the 2-3foot wall, when we were walking by he picked two up with his hands that had got over & threw them back in.... 

I wasn't sure if it was due to the fact he was confident they wouldn't bite or lack of knowledge on what they can do.


----------



## mad martin

If you get bit by a Boomslang you shouldn't really be working with snakes. They are super super docile, with the odd exception here and there.


----------



## mad martin

Shaun, edit your post *170 degrees* 
Eish, its rough when age catches up


----------



## ViperLover

Owzy said:


> I wasn't sure if it was due to the fact he was confident they wouldn't bite or lack of knowledge on what they can do.


 
Quality shot....and yeah, it wouldn't suprise me if they didn't know.


----------



## mad martin

> Quality shot....and yeah, it wouldn't suprise me if they didn't know.


They knew exactly how venomous it is. Boomslang are one of those species that really really really don't want to bite. Almost every single recorded bite was on a snake handler. The same goes for Thelotornis.


----------



## mad martin

> Quality shot....and yeah, it wouldn't suprise me if they didn't know.


I must tell you, that remark pisses me off quite substantially. Why would it not surprise you? You think reptile park curators in Africa are uneducated or something? Somehow beneath book learning? That we sit here in our mud huts and smile and wave at tourists for food?
Before you speak, you must learn to think. You have never even seen a Boomslang, let alone touched one.


----------



## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> I must tell you, that remark pisses me off quite substantially. Why would it not surprise you? You think reptile park curators in Africa are uneducated or something? Somehow beneath book learning? That we sit here in our mud huts and smile and wave at tourists for food?
> Before you speak, you must learn to think. You have never even seen a Boomslang, let alone touched one.


I did not mean it in that way...sorry.

I was reffering to what Owzy said about him picking it up without a hook and putting it back in its enclosure....Reluctant to bite? I will take you're word for it, Sir as you have a lot of experience with Boomslangs.

But that's when the "What if?" factor comes in..."What if?" he was bitten? So many people have said antivenom is expencive, and hard to come by...being at a safari park/ zoo probably would suggest that they stock serum...but it's still incredibly expencive...somebody has got to pay for it....and whoever is paying for it wouldn't be amused for that kind of bill.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

Boomslang anti-venom is very expensive because it being species specific. The delivery system is weak so acquiring a bite the animal must ‘choo’ to in-venomate. Milking boomslang causes extreme stress and very little venom being acquired at a time causes problems .
If in-venomated the human victim will be dead in 72 hours if not treated with antivenom.


----------



## PDR

ViperLover said:


> Dr. Wuster, PDR, Mark O'Shea.....Can either of you answer this please?
> 
> I really would like to hear and know more about them, therefore I need a *Professional word*.


Hmmm, and you are a:
Scientist ?
Clinician?
Consultant?
Doctor?
Expedition leader?
Search & rescue team?
Vet / veterinary student?
Zoologist / Zoology student?
Zoo / Safari park Staff?
Government official?
TV / Film researcher?
Book/magazine/web-site author?
*NO you are a 16 year old child! What makes you think that anyone here owes you anything?*
*You must feel incredibly self important if only a “Professional word” from the crème de la crème will suffice !!!!*


----------



## pythondave82

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Boomslang anti-venom is very expensive because it being species specific. The delivery system is weak so acquiring a bite the animal must ‘choo’ to in-venomate. Milking boomslang causes extreme stress and very little venom being acquired at a time causes problems .
> If in-venomated the human victim will be dead in 72 hours if not treated with antivenom.


I disagree!

The delivery system is much more effective than you would think, they don’t need to chew and their fangs are different than most RF snakes. I quick bite could potentially be dangerous.


----------



## Mark O'Shea

*Teaching the children*

Guys, why do you waste so much time on answering questions for a know-it-all who won't pay attention to you anyway. It is pretty clear to me now that all he needs to do is think of something to know all there is to know about it. There are some very expert reptile keepers and researchers who post on this forum who are getting blood-pressure because of viperlover's inability to grasp the basics and the fact that there are people out there who know 1,000x more than him and who do not feel their lives enriched by his proclamations. 
Take for instance his most recent quotation: “Herpetology is the Scientifical study of Reptiles and Amphibians” 
I can’t find ‘scientifical’ anywhere, there must be a big gap in my education.
Actually, this statement is not true on two counts.
Herpetology is taken as the branch of zoology that involves the ‘study’ of reptiles and amphibians but since ‘herpes’ (part from its other unfortunate useage) comes from the Greek for creatures that crawl, the same root as the Latin reptile, it does not truthfully include amphibians, especially as reptiles are closer to birds (which are reptiles of course) and mammals (which evolved from ‘mammal-like reptiles’) than they are to amphibians. Only the French use the correct term for the study of amphibians, Batrachology.

And notice the emphasis on the word ‘study’. Now far be it from me to take away the right to call oneself an herpetologist (note an herpetologist, silent ‘h’, like hotel or herbs so the correct pron. so ‘erpetologist, is pronounced like the tentacled snake genus Erpeton, I still say ‘herpetologist’ on TV so our mutual friend and his ilk can understand what I am talking about), as I said, far be it from me to take away the right to call yourself an herpetologist, provided you have some sort of involvement with the creatures beyond including one in your name, but it is not really the correct term for someone who keeps or breeders reptiles. The American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists was formed in 1913 and publishes a quarterly journal called Copeia, which contains papers concerned with the study of fish, amphibians and reptiles, but not a single paper on husbandry or captive breeding. People who keep and breed fish call themselves aquarists or aquaculturists, not ichthyologists, they leave that term to the scientists. So strictly herpetologist is the term applied to someone who studies reptiles, not keeps them. Lacking a word in the English language the Americans coined the term herpetoculturist a few years ago, and that seems to fill the gap nicely. Nobody has used batrachoculturist as far as I am aware, so you may have heard (or read) that here first.

The second part of the quote was interesting too “the best Herpetologists in the world study both Reptiles and Amphibians, and are never narrow-minded within one family.” It is true they do not have tunnel-vision, but most do specialise in a particular family or group of closely related families, and that is why they become experts.

Boomslangs!
Well Karl Paterson Schmidt was a snake expert, a true herpetologist in full sense of the word. He was bitten by a 66cm juvenile boomslang (Dispholidus typus) at the Field Museum, Chicago in 1957. Feeling unwell he went home expecting to be back at work the next day. He vomited repeatedly, haemorrhaged into his urine and his bowels, which ceased to work, suffered extreme abdominal pains, and breathing difficulties. Twenty-four hours after the bite, he was dead, of respiratory failure, a post-mortem showing he also had extensive internal haemorrhage of multiple organs including the kidneys, colon, small intenstine, eyes and brain. 

Now in Schmidt’s day there was not boomslang antivenom produced, and there is today. But the only antivenom for boomslang is SAIMR (South African Institute for Medical Research) Monovalent Boomslang Antivenom. To the best of my knowledge, this scarce product is available only after a bite, in S.Africa. So if you want to keep boomslang might I suggest a first class ticket from S.African Airways as a secondary purchase, just in case. Actually the DoH in the UK may stock the odd vial of boomslang antivenom but it is a very hard to obtain product in very short supply (when I visited and filmed at SAIMR in 1997 there was only one horse being used to produce it) so the idea that you will be miraculously spared Schmidt’s horrible fate following a good bite with both fangs (the juvenile that bite Schmidt only used one fang) from an adult might be a little optimistic.

Incidentally, Schmidt’s obits. were written by his friends, the highly respected herpetologists Clifford H.Pope and Robert Mertens. Mertens was himself bitten by an African twigsnake (Thelotornis) in 1975, and although boomslang antivenom was now available it did nothing to reverse the effects. It took him 18 painful days to die. There is still not antivenom for twigsnake bite.

I have wasted enough time on viperlover’s prattling, who is, as PDR (a GENUINE venomous snake expert with years and years of experience by the way) noted a 16 year old child. I am all for educating the youngsters but this is rather like repeatedly having to tell someone how to insert a lightbulb into a bayonet fitting: 
“Push and twist, got it?”
“Well what if I did it this way?”
“No, just push and twist”
“Can I have a second opinion from someone at NASA?”

In exasperation
Mark


----------



## kenneally1

I have now decided to apply the bodiae technique to answering james question's...... reply in complete gibberish, as answering with a concise and factually correct reply gains you nothing.



Anyway, I've moved out of the satsuma and am now currently residing in a pear ,and have removed the shoes from my ears and placed them on my hands, as they were to green and contrasted with the inside of the pear.......Happy easter everyone:2thumb:


----------



## Pinwallace

kenneally1 said:


> I have now decided to apply the bodiae technique to answering james question's...... reply in complete gibberish, as answering with a concise and factually correct reply gains you nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, I've moved out of the satsuma and am now currently residing in a pear ,and have removed the shoes from my ears and placed them on my hands, as they were to green and contrasted with the inside of the pear.......Happy easter everyone:2thumb:


:no1: Genius idea, I hope it catches on....


----------



## Owzy

He is the biggest joke ever on here...

Whilst he is bumlicking me on here saying 'quality shot' he is PMing someone saying I am just as much of a novice as he is & without a DWA (the second bit is true but I have made the effort to get my handing in, he had dont bugger all) & I talk 'shite'

And yes he sent this PM before the arse licking!

And that post about only wanting advise from professionals (by the way he is now apparently the new judge for who they are it seems!) is the most idiotic thing I have ever read.

If you don't like me stop arse licking me & PMing me you fool.

Martin I hope you didn't class my comment in the same way you did as VL, I was just merely saying it as a possibility, not as a fact that I have no way of knowing is true like he does.


----------



## Malc

I'm stunned.... Not only has James (Viperlover) managed to alienate us mere mortal hobbyists and the serious keepers, he has now managed to raise the blood pressure of one of the most respected people in the field, so much so that Mark has taken time out of his day to write his post

James has the uncanny knack of knowing what buttons to press to wind folk up. It's not just in the DWA section that he spouts on as if he's an expert on subjects he has yet to actually experience including the incubation and egg handling of snake eggs - FFS- he doesn't even keep *ANY* snakes.

So just to add to PDR's statement



PDR said:


> *NO you are a 16 year old child! who doesn't own any snakes *


The other thing I can't put my finger on is just how thick skinned he is. You would of thought that with all the comments and "attacks" on him he would of buggered off by now, or only post on things he personally experienced. - This makes me suggest he's not quite what he makes out to be. Whilst my son (who's 16 today) has an arrogant streak in him, he knows when to stop and has the decency to respect other folk with experience of things where he has not. James doesn't even do that !


----------



## mad martin

First off, owzy: If something bothers me, I will tell you. So no worries k? I feel really strongly about the positive additions Africans have made to herpetology. To have someone make a statement like that just highlights ignorance. I accept his apologies, but saying sorry after you broke a window doesn't fix the window. 
Guys like Mark O'Shea etc. would have been lost here had they not had the help of local herpetologists etc. So I take strong offence to anyone judging the competence of Africa.
Secondly: Mark, your post was fantastic. I really enjoyed reading it. But you highlighted exactly what I said: "snake handlers get bit by Boomers". I am not saying that handler was correct in picking them up like that, but here that is a generally accepted method of working with Boomers by long term curators and handlers.


----------



## Andy G

Im only really posting because im bored and in the vain hope that the individual in question (viper lover) heeds this advice. After successfully alienating everyone on the forum and even managing to gain the scorn of your purported hero, Mark O'Shea, can I propose a rehabilation plan?

1)If you love snakes as much as you claim to, for the love of god, go and buy one. Preferably a cornsnake. This is a very humble and easy to achieve goal and after all the time and effort you spend posting on here I cannot believe you haven't managed this yet. You will find your lack of progress in aquiring an animal when you spout forth about your intentions morning, noon and night is one of the reasons you are taken as seriously as the chuckle brothers.

2) Stop posting forthwith! 

3)After you have kept the aforementioned animal for 6 months and made some worthwhile first hand observations, make a post detailing your experience.

You are a young lad who has an interest in snakes but absolutely no experience. Therefore at this stage you have no business posting any comments dispensing advice or opinion, because any opinion you post, by definition, cannot be yours. If you heed the advice above and desist from posting now but return in a more humble way after you have maintained a snake for a while you will find peoples's attitude toward you will soften.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

pythondave82 said:


> The delivery system is much more effective than you would think, they don’t need to chew and their fangs are different than most RF snakes. I quick bite could potentially be dangerous.


Pythondave the delivery system of a Boomslang compared to Bitis or Naja is primitive and yes the Boomslange (Dispholidus typus typus) chews its victim to stimulate the venom gland. 
Hemotoxic venom which enters the wound via grooved teeth located immediately below the eye will be fatal if left untreated


----------



## stuartdouglas

I have a confession to make.........................





































I am viperlover!!:lol2:


----------



## AZUK

stuartdouglas said:


> I have a confession to make.........................
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am viperlover!!:lol2:


Impossible.. you have no where near enough experience to keep a Labrador !


----------



## AZUK

Mark O'Shea said:


> Guys, why do you waste so much time on answering questions for a know-it-all who won't pay attention to you anyway. It is pretty clear to me now that all he needs to do is think of something to know all there is to know about it. There are some very expert reptile keepers and researchers who post on this forum who are getting blood-pressure because of viperlover's inability to grasp the basics and the fact that there are people out there who know 1,000x more than him and who do not feel their lives enriched by his proclamations.
> Take for instance his most recent quotation: “Herpetology is the Scientifical study of Reptiles and Amphibians”
> I can’t find ‘scientifical’ anywhere, there must be a big gap in my education.
> Actually, this statement is not true on two counts.
> Herpetology is taken as the branch of zoology that involves the ‘study’ of reptiles and amphibians but since ‘herpes’ (part from its other unfortunate useage) comes from the Greek for creatures that crawl, the same root as the Latin reptile, it does not truthfully include amphibians, especially as reptiles are closer to birds (which are reptiles of course) and mammals (which evolved from ‘mammal-like reptiles’) than they are to amphibians. Only the French use the correct term for the study of amphibians, Batrachology.
> 
> And notice the emphasis on the word ‘study’. Now far be it from me to take away the right to call oneself an herpetologist (note an herpetologist, silent ‘h’, like hotel or herbs so the correct pron. so ‘erpetologist, is pronounced like the tentacled snake genus Erpeton, I still say ‘herpetologist’ on TV so our mutual friend and his ilk can understand what I am talking about), as I said, far be it from me to take away the right to call yourself an herpetologist, provided you have some sort of involvement with the creatures beyond including one in your name, but it is not really the correct term for someone who keeps or breeders reptiles. The American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists was formed in 1913 and publishes a quarterly journal called Copeia, which contains papers concerned with the study of fish, amphibians and reptiles, but not a single paper on husbandry or captive breeding. People who keep and breed fish call themselves aquarists or aquaculturists, not ichthyologists, they leave that term to the scientists. So strictly herpetologist is the term applied to someone who studies reptiles, not keeps them. Lacking a word in the English language the Americans coined the term herpetoculturist a few years ago, and that seems to fill the gap nicely. Nobody has used batrachoculturist as far as I am aware, so you may have heard (or read) that here first.
> 
> The second part of the quote was interesting too “the best Herpetologists in the world study both Reptiles and Amphibians, and are never narrow-minded within one family.” It is true they do not have tunnel-vision, but most do specialise in a particular family or group of closely related families, and that is why they become experts.
> 
> Boomslangs!
> Well Karl Paterson Schmidt was a snake expert, a true herpetologist in full sense of the word. He was bitten by a 66cm juvenile boomslang (Dispholidus typus) at the Field Museum, Chicago in 1957. Feeling unwell he went home expecting to be back at work the next day. He vomited repeatedly, haemorrhaged into his urine and his bowels, which ceased to work, suffered extreme abdominal pains, and breathing difficulties. Twenty-four hours after the bite, he was dead, of respiratory failure, a post-mortem showing he also had extensive internal haemorrhage of multiple organs including the kidneys, colon, small intenstine, eyes and brain.
> 
> Now in Schmidt’s day there was not boomslang antivenom produced, and there is today. But the only antivenom for boomslang is SAIMR (South African Institute for Medical Research) Monovalent Boomslang Antivenom. To the best of my knowledge, this scarce product is available only after a bite, in S.Africa. So if you want to keep boomslang might I suggest a first class ticket from S.African Airways as a secondary purchase, just in case. Actually the DoH in the UK may stock the odd vial of boomslang antivenom but it is a very hard to obtain product in very short supply (when I visited and filmed at SAIMR in 1997 there was only one horse being used to produce it) so the idea that you will be miraculously spared Schmidt’s horrible fate following a good bite with both fangs (the juvenile that bite Schmidt only used one fang) from an adult might be a little optimistic.
> 
> Incidentally, Schmidt’s obits. were written by his friends, the highly respected herpetologists Clifford H.Pope and Robert Mertens. Mertens was himself bitten by an African twigsnake (Thelotornis) in 1975, and although boomslang antivenom was now available it did nothing to reverse the effects. It took him 18 painful days to die. There is still not antivenom for twigsnake bite.
> 
> I have wasted enough time on viperlover’s prattling, who is, as PDR (a GENUINE venomous snake expert with years and years of experience by the way) noted a 16 year old child. I am all for educating the youngsters but this is rather like repeatedly having to tell someone how to insert a lightbulb into a bayonet fitting:
> “Push and twist, got it?”
> “Well what if I did it this way?”
> “No, just push and twist”
> “Can I have a second opinion from someone at NASA?”
> 
> In exasperation
> Mark


I love mark.......:flrt: But not in a Gay way !


----------



## paulrimmer69

james i think this really is the final nail in your coffin!


----------



## masticophis

ViperLover said:


> But that's when the "What if?" factor comes in..."What if?" he was bitten? So many people have said antivenom is expencive, and hard to come by...being at a safari park/ zoo probably would suggest that they stock serum...but it's still incredibly expencive...somebody has got to pay for it....and whoever is paying for it wouldn't be amused for that kind of bill.


I'm afraid life is all about risk assessment. The 'What if' factor does have to be considered, but jut because something could doesn't mean it will or that you should stop dealing with it.

Most people keep dogs, have you had a look at dogs teeth ? I bet you've petted the odd dog yourself. Yes a decent 'tame' pet shoudn't bite but they COULD. Now what if a large dog decided to attack you. Does that mean you shouldn't go near dogs ?

Mike


----------



## Mark O'Shea

*A good point*

Mike, a good point about dogs, domesticated by man for thousands of years, yet sometimes inclined to turn against the hand that feeds, walks, pets and cares for them. On the evening that the Inside Out documentary went out there was a tragic death of a small boy in Liverpool, killed by a domestic dog, although possibly that is stretching the term domestic to its limit since it had apparently been trained to fight. 

Reptiles, especially venomous snakes, do get a raw deal generally because they are seen as killers yet the facts in this country so far say different. There have been many people killed by dogs in the UK (I witnessed one such death when I worked in the NHS back in the early 1980s) and also by horses, cattle and other agricultural animals. Since the 1970s in UK zoos, five keepers have been killed by tigers (two by the same tigress) and three by elephants (and one of my colleagues was first on the scene at one of those tragedies when he worked in another collection). So what would reptiles?

In the entire 20th century there were 12 adder bite fatalities, the last in 1975 in Scotland, but no exotic snakebite fatalities (nor fatal constrictor attacks). The only recorded exotic snakebite fatality was the reptile keeper at London Zoo who kissed a cobra while pissed and was bitten for the insult, and that was in 1897 (no the date is not a typo, over 110 years ago). However, going by the increasing number of bites, mostly in the private sector and from increasingly highly venomous snakes (taipan, king cobra, mambas) and the re-emergence of the idiotic cult of self-immunisation (supposedly copying Bill Haast who did it over 40years, not six months, when antivenom therapy was in its infancy and it might have been justified) it could be only a matter of time before we have another dead British snake keeper, or worse, an innocent person. I wonder what the reaction of the authorities will be to that.

Mike is right, it is about risk assessment. Sensible people assess the risks before they do anything potentially dangerous. In zoo and safari park collections proper documented risk assessments are carried out and believe me, they can be pretty thorough. The methodology for virtually every aspect of working with animals is assessed because the company has a duty of care to both visitors and staff and would be found negligent if it did not make working or visiting the collection as safe as possible. In private collections there are no such controls, other than those self-imposed working practises of a sensible owner. People get bitten free-handling, working with snakes after consuming alcohol, working an unsafe manner, taking unnecessary risks, all things that would see them up the road in a public collection. To protect the hobby it is important that that the hobby polices itself and people acting in a foolish manner likely to bring disrepute or unwelcome attention to the hobby are dissuaded in their actions by their friends and colleagues. I think most if not all snake keepers would like to continue living long, interesting and meaningful lives, and I am sure their loved ones feel the same.

And Mad Martin, thanks for your comment about my post, but I don't quite think I would be lost in Africa without a local herpetologist. I do value local knowledge a great deal where ever I go, and I have some highly valued friends in the African herpetological community, but I also do have a fair bit of experience in the Dark Continent having made 7-8 trips there lasting up to 4months at a time, since 1989. I've carried out fieldwork in Cameroon, Senegal, Mauritania, Zambia, Tanzania, Namibia and of course S.Africa (in KwaZulu Natal, Limpopo, Transvaal, Western Cape and Northern Cape Provs.). In the field I do certainly enjoy the company and value expert advice from my African colleagues such as Donald Strydom, Tony Phelps, and others, but I would still find, catch, document and photograph herps successfully if I were on my own, as I often have done in S.America or PNG. It is just so much more fun with like-minded folks along!


And would you like to elaborate on this statement: "I am not saying that handler was correct in picking them up like that, but here that is a generally accepted method of working with Boomers by long term curators and handlers."
I have handled a few freshly caught and snake park boomers in Africa and would be interested in your thoughts on the subject as someone with experience with them on a regular basis. Often trying to get photographs of them requires a certain about of more gentle hands-on to get them to pose where a grabstick might just make them flighty. In my experience they give you fair warning when they are getting close to having had enough, and a wise person takes the hint and photographs something else.


Regards


Mark


----------



## ViperLover

> Guys, why do you waste so much time on answering questions for a know-it-all who won't pay attention to you anyway. It is pretty clear to me now that all he needs to do is think of something to know all there is to know about it. There are some very expert reptile keepers and researchers who post on this forum who are getting blood-pressure because of viperlover's inability to grasp the basics and the fact that there are people out there who know 1,000x more than him and who do not feel their lives enriched by his proclamations


It seems that nobody understands my situation. Absolutely nobody.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

Mark I have been catching these guys for many years and find myself very comfortable removing and releasing Boomslang back into the wild. My only tool used is a hook stick and have never felt threatened even when hunting the odd critter in a warm roof compartment. 
I never free handle venomous but the boomslang is sometimes an acceptable exception.


----------



## Jade01

ViperLover said:


> It seems that nobody understands my situation. Absolutely nobody.



Oh my good God, what situation?! Your mum has said your allowed a snake, be happy with what you've been given!

Mate when I was 15 I spent over a year looking for a weekend job in a pet shop, finally got one when I was 16, it just so happened it was in one of the best and most reputable reptile shops (scales and tails in leic.) and I worked my ass off in it, still do when I go back, and I learnt so much from him, and I appreciate I was lucky, but you don't really have a 'situation' going down. 

My mum didn't want me getting any reptiles until I had left home, so I agreed-yeah I was stroppy about it, but its their house, their rules. After about a year of me being there she allowed me to get a crested gecko and eventually a few spiders.

When I was 18 I moved out, the newquay to go uni, I decided to study animal science, lived in a student house and had all sorts, anaconda's carpet pythons and a very large collection of spiders. I also pestered a reptile shop in Cornwall to let me do some DWA stuff with him.. cleaning, watching feeding etc. He allowed me to do that and I was SO grateful and took in all information and advice him and everyone else told me.

I'm now still at uni but in a completely different set up, where I am allowed NO pets at all, yeah it sucks but hey what can I do about it... For my dissertation I'm doing a study on the feeding responses of eastern diamondback rattlesnakes (Crotalus adamanteus) because DWA species fascinate me. Amazingly so, but so do all other species. And yeah I would love to one day keep DWA, but im 19 and still young, not 39 with 30+years exp. behind me. I know my limits. You need to realise yours.

You need to stop being so ignorant and thinking you know it all. You've had advice from one of the most experienced and knowledgeable men in this field, which I have to say I'm so jealous about!

Buck up your ideas kid! You have your whole life ahead of you to get anything you want, you need to start small!!


----------



## PDR

ViperLover said:


> It seems that nobody understands my situation. Absolutely nobody.


 
After *869 *posts I think we all have a very clear picture of what you are all about:
If at your age I had upset so many people in just a few months I would have left the forum by now...


----------



## Lamprophis

ViperLover said:


> It seems that nobody understands my situation. Absolutely nobody.


I understand pretty clearly.. you have never kept a snake.... and are banging on about becoming a herpetologist - even though you have little concept of the meaning (as stated by Mark O'Shea). Also... you stand pretty much no chance of getting a foot in the door after alienating some of the most respected people in the game by ignoring their advice. 

So... good luck with that... : victory:


----------



## PDR

On the subject of recruiting local help....
I made month long trips to Cameroon in 98’ 99’ & 2000 and virtually all the reptiles I found where when I was out searching on my own. Local knowledge can be useful, but it can also be dangerous....
I’d been working with a project called the Cameroon Wildlife Aid Fund (showing staff how to handle reptiles) and one day the project manger Chris arranged for a guy called Charles to take me a few hours away to an area supposedly good for snake-hunting......
I did find a few snakes and other reptiles and generally had an enjoyable day while Charles hung around with some soldier friends...... I got back to the house that night and told Chris where I’d been and what I’d found....... Chris became angry with Charles and then asked me to describe exactly where I’d been searching........ Chris then said “do you know where that bloody idiot sent you? only to an area that is still covered in landmines”!!!!! It’s a wonder you didn’t get your legs blown off.


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> It seems that nobody understands my situation. Absolutely nobody.


your allowed a snake...you got parents to surport you and your attending college....oh yea your hard done by.

some kids grow up with nothings and see one parent battering the crap out of the other and such. some families will ahve nothing this christmas because of the credit crunch...if anything you have it very good


----------



## paulrimmer69

james it not a case of nobody understands your situation its more of a case of everybody has had enough of you, like pdr has said 869 posts later you still havent taken on board any advice you have been given, some highly experienced keepers have spent time trying to talk sense into you and you still dont grasp what is being said to you, as for your situation from what you have told me it is something along the lines of you are 16, just starting college with the aim of going to university and are still living at home with parents who up til now have refused to let you have a snake, am i right? yet you are still banging on about applying for a dwa!!!!!!!!! take a step back and be realistic james, if you are in the position to even think of applying for a dwa within 10 yrs id be stunned, and who in their right mind is going to give you any sort of training???? you have managed to wind up two of the most experienced men in the field and pretty much everyone else on this forum, for the last last last time james take a long holiday from the dwa section and let everybody regain their sanity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## mad martin

> I have handled a few freshly caught and snake park boomers in Africa and would be interested in your thoughts on the subject as someone with experience with them on a regular basis. Often trying to get photographs of them requires a certain about of more gentle hands-on to get them to pose where a grabstick might just make them flighty. In my experience they give you fair warning when they are getting close to having had enough, and a wise person takes the hint and photographs something else


You've actually hit the nail on the head. By using your hands, it makes them somehow calmer. Easier to work with. Because when they do lose it, they lose it proper and makes them near impossible to control. Their vision also doesn't allow for the old "Stand still, I am gone" trick. So as you said, a wise man moves along after neck of Boomer go puffy


----------



## leecb0

Jade01 said:


> You've had advice from one of the most experienced and knowledgeable men in this field, which I have to say I'm so jealous about!


 
Thank you for the complement but Paul and Mark have more experience than me so please give them some credit too:whistling2::lol2::lol2:


----------



## Swazi

It is irresponsible for a minor to even consider keeping a Boomslang. Although they are not aggressive they can, with experience, be handled with a hook and a gentle hand. Boomslang antivenom is not in short supply, there is plenty of it but most hospitals do not carry it as very few people get bitten by this particular snake. Symptoms only appear after about 24 - 48 hours, this particular antivenom is extremely effective even days after the bite. This means, here in Swaziland and South Africa, there is enough time to source the product. I would imagine in the UK it might be more of a challenge trying to find someone with 2 vials (minimum required to treat full envenomation)?


----------



## PDR

Swazi said:


> It is irresponsible for a minor to even consider keeping a Boomslang. Although they are not aggressive they can, with experience, be handled with a hook and a gentle hand. Boomslang antivenom is not in short supply, there is plenty of it but most hospitals do not carry it as very few people get bitten by this particular snake. Symptoms only appear after about 24 - 48 hours, this particular antivenom is extremely effective even days after the bite. This means, here in Swaziland and South Africa, there is enough time to source the product. I would imagine in the UK it might be more of a challenge trying to find someone with 2 vials (minimum required to treat full envenomation)?


We have two ampoules in our Lab but they have expired now. They were bought in the last time we had Boomslangs in the collection. As far as I know there is no in date AV for Boomslangs here in the UK at present.


----------



## SWMorelia

ViperLover said:


> It seems that nobody understands my situation. Absolutely nobody.


But they do and like I told you many times.... Keep this up and doors will slam in your face....
Well congratulations, you've managed to amass the best in the country and get them in unison to tell you to :censor: off.....
Thats an achievement to be proud of...... So as your next achievement are you going for the perma-ban....


----------



## carpy

ViperLover said:


> It seems that nobody understands my situation. Absolutely nobody.


James, do you remember about a week back when you were commenting on Dr. Wüsters photos on facebook of _B.asper_?

You managed in a short amount of time to alienate one of the most respected men in this field, and at the same time make an utter fool of yourself by mentioning some completely incorrect information, of which you have no idea, because (and correct me if i am wrong) you have never been in contact with a fer de lance in the wild, let alone seen one in captivity behind glass.

After that episode, i decided to take a chance and add you on msn. I am relatively young, I do have a small amount of experience in the field in Central America and hope to gain many more years experience in the future. I DO know your position, I was there but a number of years ago, as a young kid, absolutely fascinated by reptiles and all they had to offer. I was captivated, totally and utterly, and would do nothing more as a kid than read books, watch documentaries, and try to learn in my spare time. 

This is your issue, or one of your many issues even. People here do understand, everyone of these individuals, whom you ought to be learning from, was at some stage or other in your shoes. Every one of them was at one point a young kid with a fascination. All of them at some point or other most likely will have kept a reptile as a pet as a child, and learned from that. All of them will have had a million and one questions in their head, but none of them will have been quite so arrogant, and outlandishly ignorant as yourself about it.

I spoke to you on msn, I told you that you were alienating people. I made it quite clear that this could have a serious effect on a potential career in herpetology, and that it is these people who you would rely on in the future to obtain information. I said that many of these individual are getting rather disgruntled with your continual barrage of ineffective and most often rude comments. I made it quite clear what i would do if i were in your shoes, and even offered to answer any questions you may have on msn if i am able to help, to get you somewhat out of the firing line so people have a chance to calm down, and you have a chance to grow up.

Quite clearly all of this has fallen on deaf ears. Your post a few pages back is one of the most insulting posts i think i have ever seen from you, it is exceptionally rude, and alienates many on this forum, of which the vast majority have been so incredibly patient with you. I dont think you quite understand just how patient these guys have been.


I really am at a loss for words how anyone like you can possibly act the way you do. 

as Wolfgang said on the _B.asper _photo on facebook:

"Cluetime: Postorrhoea is just as irritating on FB as on RFUK..."

now why the hell did you not heed this information??!!??!!??


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

OK please enough people.
I am sure James ViperLover gets the message loud and clear. Let’s all leave it there and move on. 
For those who still have a gripe with the chap PM or open and dedicate a thread to him.


----------



## kelboy

PDR said:


> We have two ampoules in our Lab but they have expired now. They were bought in the last time we had Boomslangs in the collection. As far as I know there is no in date AV for Boomslangs here in the UK at present.


Hypothetically, if someone was to be bitten in the UK, by a Boomslang, would there be enough time to obtain AV? Are the symptoms of an envenomation treatable symptomatically at all? And if the answer to the above questions is no, would doctors risk using out of date AV?


----------



## CraigMcLean

pythondave82 said:


> *There is antivenom now, in fact when I was in J'burg in 1997 I met the horse that they use for raising the monospecific boomslang antivenom, note I said "the horse", there was only one for boomslang (there may be more now). *


How interesting to see this here! My Grandmother used to work at that Medical Research Institute in JHB and I remember as a child standing feeding the horses used for making serum while I waited for her.

I have worked quite a lot with Boomslangs and one of the reasons it was thought to be non-venomous is because people (handlers) had received dry bites from them. In fact they are one of the most deadly snakes in the world. One drop the size of a pin head can kill up to 20 people! This is why it is more poisonous than something like the much feared Black Mamba as the Mamba injects large quantities of venom into you as it rushes past you even though, as a neurotoxic venom it kills a lot faster (7 hours for Europeans until you pass out and interestingly 13 hours for Africans). A boomslang bite takes a long time kill humans though and has been known to take up to a week. Being Haemotoxic, the victim starts to bleed from orifices or any cuts or scratches. It is not very nice. 
They do tend to chew the venom into the wound as the venom trickles down a small groove on the outside of each fang. (I have seen them do this when eating). They are however more than capable of offering a bite without chewing. They are said to be able to open their mouths to almost 180 degrees and can effectively "spear" the victim.
Another snake that is very similar to the Boomslang is a Vine Snake. It lives in the same regions as the Boomslang and also has a haemotoxic venom. It also was thought to be non-poisonous until fairly recently. I think the first person to be bitten was someone involved in unpacking crates at the Durban docks and put a box down on top of one which promptly fixed itself to his hand (This was the story although I am not sure how true it is). Amazingly, I saw one of these up for sale here in the UK the other week as a mildly venomous snake!
Boomslangs are lovely snakes that get tame quickly (believe it or not). They tend to be able to see better than most snakes, they have their own little personalities, they are amazing when they hunt (especially when they chase mice!) and to me it is one of my most loved species.
Back in the 80s when I used to work with them, I believe that only 8 people had been recorded as being bitten by Boomslangs and all of them were snake handlers. I don’t know if this statistic has changed since then. 
It was a pleasant surprise to see this article here.


----------



## CraigMcLean

One last thing to add, although they do have anti-venom for Boomslang bites I belive that the prefered treatment now (and has been for the last 15 years or so) is blood transfusions.


----------



## mantella

Mark O'Shea said:


> Guys, why do you waste so much time on answering questions for a know-it-all who won't pay attention to you anyway. It is pretty clear to me now that all he needs to do is think of something to know all there is to know about it. There are some very expert reptile keepers and researchers who post on this forum who are getting blood-pressure because of viperlover's inability to grasp the basics and the fact that there are people out there who know 1,000x more than him and who do not feel their lives enriched by his proclamations.
> Take for instance his most recent quotation: “Herpetology is the Scientifical study of Reptiles and Amphibians”
> I can’t find ‘scientifical’ anywhere, there must be a big gap in my education.
> Actually, this statement is not true on two counts.
> Herpetology is taken as the branch of zoology that involves the ‘study’ of reptiles and amphibians but since ‘herpes’ (part from its other unfortunate useage) comes from the Greek for creatures that crawl, the same root as the Latin reptile, it does not truthfully include amphibians, especially as reptiles are closer to birds (which are reptiles of course) and mammals (which evolved from ‘mammal-like reptiles’) than they are to amphibians. Only the French use the correct term for the study of amphibians, Batrachology.
> 
> And notice the emphasis on the word ‘study’. Now far be it from me to take away the right to call oneself an herpetologist (note an herpetologist, silent ‘h’, like hotel or herbs so the correct pron. so ‘erpetologist, is pronounced like the tentacled snake genus Erpeton, I still say ‘herpetologist’ on TV so our mutual friend and his ilk can understand what I am talking about), as I said, far be it from me to take away the right to call yourself an herpetologist, provided you have some sort of involvement with the creatures beyond including one in your name, but it is not really the correct term for someone who keeps or breeders reptiles. The American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists was formed in 1913 and publishes a quarterly journal called Copeia, which contains papers concerned with the study of fish, amphibians and reptiles, but not a single paper on husbandry or captive breeding. People who keep and breed fish call themselves aquarists or aquaculturists, not ichthyologists, they leave that term to the scientists. So strictly herpetologist is the term applied to someone who studies reptiles, not keeps them. Lacking a word in the English language the Americans coined the term herpetoculturist a few years ago, and that seems to fill the gap nicely. Nobody has used batrachoculturist as far as I am aware, so you may have heard (or read) that here first.
> 
> The second part of the quote was interesting too “the best Herpetologists in the world study both Reptiles and Amphibians, and are never narrow-minded within one family.” It is true they do not have tunnel-vision, but most do specialise in a particular family or group of closely related families, and that is why they become experts.
> 
> 
> In exasperation
> Mark




We know you only really know about snakes you don't have to explain yourself.

Can't believe how wound up people get on this forum. Its hilarious :lol2:


----------



## ViperLover

mantella said:


> We know you only really know about snakes you don't have to explain yourself.


 
Hmmm...That was a little uncalled for, on any regard. Whether or not Mark has slated me in that one post...He still has my respect for doing what he does.


----------



## pythondave82

mantella said:


> We know you only really know about snakes you don't have to explain yourself.
> 
> Can't believe how wound up people get on this forum. Its hilarious :lol2:


Yep, because he’s only ever written books and filmed documentaries on snakes, right?

Explain himself, where? I was under the impression he was making a point that we don’t need to react, and build up high blood pressure from a certain individual – but of course I may be wrong, because I guess you are one of the many ‘experts’ on RFUK, who also has an in-depth, large amount of wide-ranging knowledge about all reptiles, including venomous of course!


----------



## mantella

pythondave82 said:


> Yep, because he’s only ever written books and filmed documentaries on snakes, right?
> 
> Explain himself, where? I was under the impression he was making a point that we don’t need to react, and build up high blood pressure from a certain individual – but of course I may be wrong, because I guess you are one of the many ‘experts’ on RFUK, who also has an in-depth, large amount of wide-ranging knowledge about all reptiles, including venomous of course!


And are you?


----------



## CraigMcLean

kelboy said:


> Hypothetically, if someone was to be bitten in the UK, by a Boomslang, would there be enough time to obtain AV? Are the symptoms of an envenomation treatable symptomatically at all? And if the answer to the above questions is no, would doctors risk using out of date AV?


A boomslang bite takes a long time to kill a human - up to a week. As it is a haemotoxic venom, it is treatable with blood transfusions until AV can be administered. There is plenty of time to fly it in from South Africa. There is no shortage there.


----------



## ViperLover

mantella said:


> And are you?


 
Alright, I understand Mark was having a pop at me, but he was right. I do need to buck up.

Youve insulted one of the most respected Herpetologists in the world in two sentences...and are working on insulting a very experienced and knowledgeable venomous keeper. Don't follow my footsteps, it doesn't do you justice. Believe me. I regret it, and sometimes I need a kick in the backside to get me focused again...Mark did that, and I appreciate it.


----------



## StevetheSnake

He's seen the light..........again.


----------



## CraigMcLean

This is an innocent suggestion, but why not start a separate thread for slagging and counter slagging? This was a good thread and it would really be good to hear more about what people have to say about Boomslangs.


----------



## ViperLover

StevetheSnake said:


> He's seen the light..........again.


???????


----------



## ipreferaflan

ViperLover said:


> ???????


He means you've said so many times now that you've heeded other peoples advice, but it's really had no effect. You'll be back to your ways within a few days.
Get a cornsnake, man.
Sometimes I come on DWA just to see what escapades ViperLover is up to this week.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

ViperLover said:


> It seems that nobody understands my situation. Absolutely nobody.


Then become an Emo and start cutting yourself with the curtains closed. Can someone pass me my tiny violin please.


----------



## kelboy

CraigMcLean said:


> A boomslang bite takes a long time to kill a human - up to a week. As it is a haemotoxic venom, it is treatable with blood transfusions until AV can be administered. There is plenty of time to fly it in from South Africa. There is no shortage there.


Cheers Craig.


----------



## mad martin

I wouldn't bank on "Yeah okay, I can wait awhile for AV." Snake handler in Port Elizabeth was killed under an hour by a Boomslang. If you keep one of the most toxic animals on the planet in your house, and you have no idea where to get AV for it........ well the term "Darwin Award" springs to mind.


----------



## kelboy

mad martin said:


> I wouldn't bank on "Yeah okay, I can wait awhile for AV." Snake handler in Port Elizabeth was killed under an hour by a Boomslang. If you keep one of the most toxic animals on the planet in your house, and you have no idea where to get AV for it........ well the term "Darwin Award" springs to mind.


You do understand my question was totally hypothetical though? I wouldn't expect anyone with an ounce of sense would take a risk like that unless it was necessary.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

mad martin said:


> I wouldn't bank on "Yeah okay, I can wait awhile for AV." Snake handler in Port Elizabeth was killed under an hour by a Boomslang. If you keep one of the most toxic animals on the planet in your house, and you have no idea where to get AV for it........ well the term "Darwin Award" springs to mind.


"Darwins" can't be issued to the mentally frail....
James, READ BETWEEN THE LINES THERE.


----------



## pythondave82

mantella said:


> And are you?


Not at all, but I’m not the one making pointless comments about experienced herpetologists with years and years under their belts. I have just looked through some of your previous posts; I think I counted 5 or 6 where you slated him, why? Back up your reasons, I very much doubt you have a valid reason. I love it how ‘Tommy the turtle lover’s’ who normally browses the ‘pet shop talk’ sections, visit the DWA section every now and then just to take a little pot-shot at somebody or give their well respected advice, when deep down they haven’t got a clue.

I guess most people on this forum have forgotten more than you know – including ViperLover!


----------



## kelboy

pythondave82 said:


> I guess most people on this forum have forgotten more than you know – including ViperLover!


That was low! Ouch!:gasp:


----------



## ViperLover

terciopelo_dave said:


> "Darwins" can't be issued to the mentally frail....
> James, READ BETWEEN THE LINES THERE.


 
Ok, did I ever say I had intensions on getting a Boomer? Quote me where it did. Cheers.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

Snakes Incorporated said:


> OK please enough people. I am sure James ViperLover gets the message loud and clear. Let’s all leave it there and move on. For those who still have a gripe with the chap PM or open and dedicate a thread to him.


James ViperLover why not just do everyone a great big favour and shut it mate. You have made a embarrassing fool of yourself so just leave it there. You seem to enjoy the attention were everyone disrespects you but you are too stupid to realize we are laughing at you.


----------



## ViperLover

Snakes Incorporated said:


> James ViperLover why not just do everyone a great big favour and shut it mate. You have made a embarrassing fool of yourself so just leave it there. You seem to enjoy the attention were everyone disrespects you but you are too stupid to realize we are laughing at you.


 
I would like to know where Dave got that from.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

ViperLover said:


> I would like to know where Dave got that from.


Who is Dave because from what I have seen you are so thick-skinned you are seriously not worth the bother.


----------



## ViperLover

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Who is Dave because from what I have seen you are so thick-skinned you are seriously not worth the bother.


 
From my observations, everybodys on the assumttpion I still want to start with DWA...I don't!

You have a PM


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

ViperLover said:


> From my observations, everybodys on the assumttpion I still want to start with DWA...I don't!
> 
> You have a PM


Not worth the bother


----------



## mantella

pythondave82 said:


> Not at all, but I’m not the one making pointless comments about experienced herpetologists with years and years under their belts. I have just looked through some of your previous posts; I think I counted 5 or 6 where you slated him, why? Back up your reasons, I very much doubt you have a valid reason. I love it how ‘Tommy the turtle lover’s’ who normally browses the ‘pet shop talk’ sections, visit the DWA section every now and then just to take a little pot-shot at somebody or give their well respected advice, when deep down they haven’t got a clue.
> 
> I guess most people on this forum have forgotten more than you know – including ViperLover!



HAHA don't make me laugh.

I didn't even know i was being insulting in my other post i was telling it like it is.


----------



## stuartdouglas

let's stop feeding the troll shall we................


----------



## Mark O'Shea

*more on boomers*

So Mantella, I am told this is not the first you have taken a pop at me, questioning my knowledge and experience. It is clear you don’t like me but that’s fine by me, I don’t expect everyone to like me, and I certainly don’t expect everyone to agree with me. But when you have over forty years experience with herps under your belt, half a dozen books published with contributed chapters in several others, have presented around three-dozen documentaries for several TV channels that are transmitted all around the world, and have over 25 years experience conducting herpetofaunal surveys, fieldwork and snakebite research in the tropics to your credit, having worked in over 36 countries on every continent except Antarctica, oh, and a Millennium Award from the prestigious Explorers’ Club of New York (for services to zoology) and an honorary Doctor of Sciences degree for your contribution to herpetology, then you might be more qualified to come back and criticise. So dismiss my achievements if you will Mantella, but they exist, so your disparagement does not bother me one bit. I know most mantellas are yellow, or brown, or red, but I reckon I know a green one too.

Now back to boomers again. People are talking about how long you have got if bitten. Frankly it is impossible to tell how long you have got after any snakebite. I know of a young snake handler at Halfway House Snake Park, SA, who was bitten by a medium-sized snouted cobra (Naja annulifera) during a demonstration. Despite having a very experienced snakebite doctor and paramedics on hand, and antivenom, he died in 30minutes. I am sure Mad Martin and Snakes Inc., and others posting here from Africa, can tell you of similar instances where sudden and rapid deaths have occurred. Sometimes these deaths are caused by a history of exposure to snake venom or even snakes with the resultant hypersensitivity accelerating the unfortunate outcome (self-immunises pay attention here). The young guy who died at Halfway House had previously been bitten by a puff adder and had spitter venom in his eye, but this was his first cobra bite, and he died about as close to the centre for S.African snakebite antivenom as one can be (SAIMR is in J’burg down the road as had been mentioned by several others). 

And boomers, well Schmidt was no spring chicken, I think he was 67, but the snake that killed him was a juvenile, and it only got one fang into him, yet he died 24hrs later. Joe Slowinski’s krait bite, another small snake, took 29.5hrs to kill him. If you are bitten by a venomous snake there really are no guarantees to your survival, and your chances are diminished by factors such as limited antivenom availability, prior exposure to venom etc. This is especially the case for species for which no antivenom exists such as the African twigsnake (Thelotornis) that killed Robert Mertens, the Aruba Island rattlesnake, and here you might be surprised, bushvipers (Atheris). A few years ago in the UK, a guy was bitten by a Saharan horned viper (Cerastes cerastes), something many consider a starter DWA species, but he was seriously ill and could have died but for very expert medical attention he received. And another snake I would rate and suggest taking care with is Blanding’s treesnake (Boiga or Toxicodryas blandingi). I was bitten by a large specimen, a female, some years ago and had some very unpleasant symptoms, my muscles all cramping up so I could hardly stand, move or breathe. Gradually the number of potentially dangerous rear-fanged snakes has increased in number as accidents occurred, often to keepers. Who would have though the Japanese equivalent of the grass snake could kill someone, but the Yamakagashi (Rhabdophis tigrinus) has proved its potential.

The reason there are few accidents with rear-fanged snakes might be the small size of their mouths, the positioning of often small fangs at the rear of the mouth requiring a good chewing to bring them into play, the relative lack of toxicity or limited quantity of their venom, or the fact that they are inoffensive or rarely come into contact with people. The boomer is, as others with experience of them have stated, a generally placid snake but the consequences of a bite are ultra-serious, and the possibility of a bite occurring if the snake is distressed or annoyed, are also considerable because it has a large mouth, short head and enlarged rear-fangs which might better be termed ‘midway fangs’ as they are quite well forward, under the eyes. A chew might help but these fangs can probably do the business with a couple of old fashioned stabs. I have put an image of the boomslang’s armoury on my website if you wish to view it. Go to: www.markoshea.tv/blog/boomslang.html


----------



## SWMorelia

Mark O'Shea said:


> when you have over forty years experience with herps under your belt, half a dozen books published with contributed chapters in several others, have presented around three-dozen documentaries for several TV channels that are transmitted all around the world, and have over 25 years experience conducting herpetofaunal surveys, fieldwork and snakebite research in the tropics to your credit, having worked in over 36 countries on every continent except Antarctica, oh, and a Millennium Award from the prestigious Explorers’ Club of New York (for services to zoology) and an honorary Doctor of Sciences degree for your contribution to herpetology, http://www.markoshea.tv/blog/boomslang.html


So, Mark, what makes you think you are qualified to answer....:whistling2:


----------



## mantella

Mark O'Shea said:


> So Mantella, I am told this is not the first you have taken a pop at me, questioning my knowledge and experience. It is clear you don’t like me but that’s fine by me, I don’t expect everyone to like me, and I certainly don’t expect everyone to agree with me. But when you have over forty years experience with herps under your belt, half a dozen books published with contributed chapters in several others, have presented around three-dozen documentaries for several TV channels that are transmitted all around the world, and have over 25 years experience conducting herpetofaunal surveys, fieldwork and snakebite research in the tropics to your credit, having worked in over 36 countries on every continent except Antarctica, oh, and a Millennium Award from the prestigious Explorers’ Club of New York (for services to zoology) and an honorary Doctor of Sciences degree for your contribution to herpetology, then you might be more qualified to come back and criticise. So dismiss my achievements if you will Mantella, but they exist, so your disparagement does not bother me one bit. I know most mantellas are yellow, or brown, or red, but I reckon I know a green one too.
> 
> 
> Your tv documentaries , books etc don't impress me one bit mate.


----------



## ViperLover

Mark O'Shea said:


> So Mantella, I am told this is not the first you have taken a pop at me, questioning my knowledge and experience. It is clear you don’t like me but that’s fine by me, I don’t expect everyone to like me, and I certainly don’t expect everyone to agree with me. But when you have over forty years experience with herps under your belt, half a dozen books published with contributed chapters in several others, have presented around three-dozen documentaries for several TV channels that are transmitted all around the world, and have over 25 years experience conducting herpetofaunal surveys, fieldwork and snakebite research in the tropics to your credit, having worked in over 36 countries on every continent except Antarctica, oh, and a Millennium Award from the prestigious Explorers’ Club of New York (for services to zoology) and an honorary Doctor of Sciences degree for your contribution to herpetology, then you might be more qualified to come back and criticise. So dismiss my achievements if you will Mantella, but they exist, so your disparagement does not bother me one bit. I know most mantellas are yellow, or brown, or red, but I reckon I know a green one too.


wned8:


----------



## Mark O'Shea

*Dunno*

Dunno, just a wild guess I suppose.
Anyway, not knowing anything doesn't stop some folks from making earth-shattering proclamations, so I might as well join in !


----------



## ViperLover

mantella said:


> Mark O'Shea said:
> 
> 
> 
> So Mantella, I am told this is not the first you have taken a pop at me, questioning my knowledge and experience. It is clear you don’t like me but that’s fine by me, I don’t expect everyone to like me, and I certainly don’t expect everyone to agree with me. But when you have over forty years experience with herps under your belt, half a dozen books published with contributed chapters in several others, have presented around three-dozen documentaries for several TV channels that are transmitted all around the world, and have over 25 years experience conducting herpetofaunal surveys, fieldwork and snakebite research in the tropics to your credit, having worked in over 36 countries on every continent except Antarctica, oh, and a Millennium Award from the prestigious Explorers’ Club of New York (for services to zoology) and an honorary Doctor of Sciences degree for your contribution to herpetology, then you might be more qualified to come back and criticise. So dismiss my achievements if you will Mantella, but they exist, so your disparagement does not bother me one bit. I know most mantellas are yellow, or brown, or red, but I reckon I know a green one too.
> 
> 
> Your tv documentaries , books etc don't impress me one bit mate.
> 
> 
> 
> Go away then! - How could you explain even a tenth of what Mark just wrote yourself? You couldn't. Have you ever read any of his books? Do tell me which ones. - Also, (with the greatest of respect to mark) Animal Planet's not the be all, and end all. Just because youve seen a few documentaries, doesn't mean you have the right to judge all of an extremely tallented person's achievements!
Click to expand...


----------



## Tehanu

Lets all take a hiatus from this shall we?

Huge thanks to all those who have contibuted experience and advice


----------

