# jungle corn breeding question please



## elle1331 (Mar 19, 2007)

ok so whats the best snake to breed with a jungle corn, and what will be the outcome of breeding a hybrid to a corn


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

The best snake to breed with a "Jungle" King/Corn cross is probably another "Jungle"... that way you would hopefully retain the hybrid look and ensure that the animals cannot be mistaken for pure corn or king.

Breeding a hybrid to a corn will increase the percentage of corn genes (and probably the corn appearance) of the hybrid offspring.


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## Kenorsanc (Dec 10, 2006)

I'd breed it to another jungle as the good thing about jungles is that they don't look like corns or kings and if you breed it to a corn then the babies will look more like corns and to a king then more like a king.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

The other option ist o breed your normal jungle(if thats what you got), to an amel jungle, for jungles het amel.

That way you get to keep two visually different jungles, and the offspring together would throw out some amel ones too:no1:


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## elle1331 (Mar 19, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> The other option ist o breed your normal jungle(if thats what you got), to an amel jungle, for jungles het amel.
> 
> That way you get to keep two visually different jungles, and the offspring together would throw out some amel ones too:no1:


hes an albino jungle hunni, does that make a difference


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

elle1331 said:


> hes an albino jungle hunni, does that make a difference


 
then its just the other way round, you could put it to a normal jungle for normal jungles het amel, or to another amel for similar offspring:no1:

theres also a jungle to another corn for super corns(but ive never seen one), or theres the long term possibilitys of say the amel jungle back into another line of corns(say lavender or bloodred), and their offspring back together for some different morph jungles?:lol2:


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## elle1331 (Mar 19, 2007)

sorry just been informed that the jungle is a female and he (friends snakes) has a male bloodred het hypo would that pairing work possibly


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

elle1331 said:


> sorry just been informed that the jungle is a female and he (friends snakes) has a male bloodred het hypo would that pairing work possibly


you wouldn't get much from the offspring, but a pair of offspring bred back together could have interesting results:no1:


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## elle1331 (Mar 19, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> you wouldn't get much from the offspring, but a pair of offspring bred back together could have interesting results:no1:


isnt that wrong or am i just being daft lol lol 

and sorry for the questions but whats the best my friend has 
albino jungle (f)
bloodred (m)
butter (f)
anery (m)
snow (m)
cremsicle (m)
ghost (f)

would any of these work as a pair??


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

elle1331 said:


> sorry just been informed that the jungle is a female and he (friends snakes) has a male bloodred het hypo would that pairing work possibly


Its a brave person that puts a Bloodred het hypo in with something with Kingsnake genes!! :crazy:

I hope you all know what you're doing. I was offered a loan of a female albino cali king to put with my male amel corn last year, but politely turned the offer down cos neither of us had tried hybridising before.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

elle1331 said:


> isnt that wrong or am i just being daft lol lol
> 
> and sorry for the questions but whats the best my friend has
> albino jungle (f)
> ...


If you ignore the king side of it for a moment, and just think of it as a pure corn, to get anything visual from the initial offspring you will need amel on the non jungle side, or the jungle to have hets, otherwise any offspring in the F1(first generation), will be normals, and in this case, would be normal jungle corns(or more specifically super corns)

looking at the list the best you can hope for straight off would be amel super corns(which would be very similar but possible watered down looking amel jungles), from the snow(het anery), or another amel looking jungle corn(which would be corn, great plains and king mixed)

what part did you think was wrong?


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## elle1331 (Mar 19, 2007)

eeji said:


> Its a brave person that puts a Bloodred het hypo in with something with Kingsnake genes!! :crazy:
> 
> I hope you all know what you're doing. I was offered a loan of a female albino cali king to put with my male amel corn last year, but politely turned the offer down cos neither of us had tried hybridising before.


thats why on my origional post i asked whats the best snake and what the outcome will be


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## elle1331 (Mar 19, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> If you ignore the king side of it for a moment, and just think of it as a pure corn, to get anything visual from the initial offspring you will need amel on the non jungle side, or the jungle to have hets, otherwise any offspring in the F1(first generation), will be normals, and in this case, would be normal jungle corns(or more specifically super corns)
> 
> looking at the list the best you can hope for straight off would be amel super corns(which would be very similar but possible watered down looking amel jungles), from the snow(het anery), or another amel looking jungle corn(which would be corn, great plains and king mixed)
> 
> what part did you think was wrong?


breeding offspring wont they end up deformed and sick and such


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

eeji said:


> Its a brave person that puts a Bloodred het hypo in with something with Kingsnake genes!! :crazy:
> 
> I hope you all know what you're doing. I was offered a loan of a female albino cali king to put with my male amel corn last year, but politely turned the offer down cos neither of us had tried hybridising before.


 
yeah, thats the concern, what if the genetics gets lost in the mix and these appear as corns:whistling2:, but i reckon its a possibility genetically, i personally dont want to mix corns and kings but i know some do:whistling2:


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

elle1331 said:


> breeding offspring wont they end up deformed and sick and such


 
thats where all the morphs come from, its something that is commonly done, and you'll find it all across the reptile world, morph or not, i know of a common boa breeder who does for cleaning up certain lines, basically its fine for thye first generation or two, but ideally not repeated over and over

I reckon you would be lucky to find a reptile anywhere in the uk(exept wild caught or captive farmed), where you couldn't 100% guarantee there wasn't any inbreeding


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

elle1331 said:


> thats why on my origional post i asked whats the best snake and what the outcome will be


 
me personally, i'd get another amel jungle:no1:


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## elle1331 (Mar 19, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> me personally, i'd get another amel jungle:no1:


im beginning to think that aswell


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

elle1331 said:


> im beginning to think that aswell


 
yeah, but dont be put off by the sibling pairing thing, its not like humans and the hills have eyes:no1::lol2:


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## elle1331 (Mar 19, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> yeah, but dont be put off by the sibling pairing thing, its not like humans and the hills have eyes:no1::lol2:


f**k i bet i have nightmares now of killer snakes cheers sweet lol lol 
so should me and my friend get another albino jungle or an amel jungle


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

elle1331 said:


> f**k i bet i have nightmares now of killer snakes cheers sweet lol lol
> so should me and my friend get another albino jungle or an amel jungle


same thing:no1: amelanistic means the same as albino, both lacking black pigment:no1:


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## elle1331 (Mar 19, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> same thing:no1: amelanistic means the same as albino, both lacking black pigment:no1:


ermmmmmm huhhh


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

elle1331 said:


> ermmmmmm huhhh


 
amel and albino are the same thing, albino means lacking black, amel(amelanistic)also means lacking black, just two different names, albino is a common name, amel is the more scientific way of saying it

commonly used terms are

amel= amelanistic= lacking black
anery= anerythristic = lacking red
hypo = hypomelanistic = reduced black


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## asm1006 (May 5, 2007)

weird as I having a similar convo the other day with hubby, I'm not sure but he think jungle corns are wrong. He thinks they wouldn't breed naturally in the wild so u shouldn't. As I said I have no idea as don't know enough about it.Is it wrong to mix kings with corns?


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## Nuttywife (Jun 20, 2007)

good question what if you bred a jungle corn with an amel would they fight or would they actually breed:mf_dribble:


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

For what it's worth, I think it is a bad idea to cross corns and kings.I am against crossing subspecies, too.

As for the definitions of albino and amelanistic, if you look in a good unabridged dictionary, you will see that albino has a lot broader definition than amelanistic does. Among other things, an albino plant lacks chlorophyll, which is not melanin.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

paulh said:


> For what it's worth, I think it is a bad idea to cross corns and kings.I am against crossing subspecies, too.
> 
> As for the definitions of albino and amelanistic, if you look in a good unabridged dictionary, you will see that albino has a lot broader definition than amelanistic does. Among other things, an albino plant lacks chlorophyll, which is not melanin.


true, but were not talking plants:lol2:, in respect of reptiles, it works:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

asm1006 said:


> weird as I having a similar convo the other day with hubby, I'm not sure but he think jungle corns are wrong. He thinks they wouldn't breed naturally in the wild so u shouldn't. As I said I have no idea as don't know enough about it.Is it wrong to mix kings with corns?


No, they wouldn't naturally breed in the wild.
In fact, in captivity they usually have to be tricked into breeding (by using two pairs of animals and swapping in the corn with the female king at the appropriate time - and using a larger male corn than the female king, so that she's less likely to try to eat him).

If YOU believe that makes it wrong, it makes it wrong for you - and you should be careful not to buy a "jungle corn" or a "super corn" or indeed any other hybrid corns (Creamsicle/Rootbeer/Copper/Buttercream and Frosteds/Fantasy come to mind... and there's a possibility that Ultramels are hybrids too). Granted, because certain hybrid animals were used in the production of certain popular morphs (Read "Candy Cane" - there's a very good argument for every single one of these to be umpteenth-generation, high corn percentage Creamsicles bred for high white backgrounds) it's pretty darn difficult to find corn snakes that are 100% _Pantherophis_ _guttattus_ anyway... unless you buy wild-caught specimens imported from their natural range where Great Plains ratsnakes do not overlap and produce intergrades.

If you do not believe it's wrong, then it isn't wrong for you - but any hybrid should be labelled as such! They're not "Jungle Corns"... they're Jungle King/Corn Hybrids. And since kings are snake eaters... jungles should never be sold as though they ARE corn snakes. 



Nuttywife said:


> good question what if you bred a jungle corn with an amel would they fight or would they actually breed:mf_dribble:


Depends on the king percentage of the Jungle. If it's a first-generation 50/50 animal, the Jungle may well try to eat (not 'fight') the corn. It might not... but it's something to consider that you probably wouldn't want to risk leaving them alone overnight. The more corn that's in the Jungle, the less likely it is to try to eat instead of mate; it still doesn't guarantee that it WON'T try.

My personal belief is that a 50/50 jungle should only be bred to another 50/50 jungle, to try to retain as much HYBRID look as possible, so that it can never be mistaken for one species or the other.


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## asm1006 (May 5, 2007)

thanks for that: victory:
still haven't made my mind up but it definately food for thought:lol2:


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## Theu (Dec 24, 2007)

kings and corns reproduce normaly?
like 2 corns or 2 kings?
ty all


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

I don't know if you get the same kind of fertility - it may be you've got a greater chance of getting infertile eggs in a clutch. Having not bred Jungles myself, I couldn't say for sure - but that's one of the typical side effects of breeding hybrids, reduced fertility.


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## asm1006 (May 5, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> I don't know if you get the same kind of fertility - it may be you've got a greater chance of getting infertile eggs in a clutch. Having not bred Jungles myself, I couldn't say for sure - but that's one of the typical side effects of breeding hybrids, reduced fertility.


 
Would _reduced fertility_ be mother natures way of 'phasing something out'?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Not necessarily - because it's only the first generation cross that seems to have that problem.

For example, an entire species of parthenogenic lizards, the New Mexican Whiptail (_Cnemidophorus_ _neomexicanus_) is due to a crossing between two other species - the *initial *cross has lower fertility (no males are produced), but the New Mexico Whiptails as a species are thriving.


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## Theu (Dec 24, 2007)

i know that
i want to know if they clutch normaly...if they do the "work" just like 2 corns.
ty all


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Theu said:


> i know that
> i want to know if they clutch normaly...if they do the "work" just like 2 corns.
> ty all


I don't quite understand what you're asking.

Certainly you do not need to artificially inseminate, or grow the embryos/eggs in a petri dish - the animals will mate (if tricked into doing so) and the female will lay eggs that will hatch into hybrid offspring. However, more of the eggs may be infertile than a same-species clutch.


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## Theu (Dec 24, 2007)

ty 
i was trying to ask that


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