# Ex-laboratory primates?



## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Something I've been wondering about for quite some time now, so would be interested to know a few things..
I know monkey world has taken in a few ex-lab primates before, but what about all the rest? As I understand it, the majority of primates imported to the UK each year are destined for research facilities - and it seems quite a number! I know many are used repeatedly over their lifetime in the 'lower level' stuff, and sadly some will die or need to be euthanised as a result of the procedures, but surely there are a lot that could be rehomed? Perhaps they are..?
Anybody know more about this?


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

The trouble is most labs will deny having animals to experiment on,i had a marmoset given to me once many years ago from the research part of london zoo,but this was only because a friend worked there.I never realised this even existed or if it still does.
The joke is ,if you or i wanted to import primates it is very,very difficult,but to experiment on and lead a terrible existance in labs is allowed.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

They're euthanized. I worked a short while for a massive drug company mostly with the rodents but they had beagles and primates too. They were kept remarkably well within this company (not like zoo animals of course but nothing like a PETA video) to be fair and guidelines were very strict but were always euthanized when they were finished with them. They're unsuitable for pets/zoo life. Doing a postmortem or dissecting them is usually enough to make sure of that.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

animalsbeebee said:


> The trouble is most labs will deny having animals to experiment on,i had a marmoset given to me once many years ago from the research part of london zoo,but this was only because a friend worked there.I never realised this even existed or if it still does.
> The joke is ,if you or i wanted to import primates it is very,very difficult,but to experiment on and lead a terrible existance in labs is allowed.


Had same experiance.
Pair of commons many moons ago.
Arrived and were easy sexed.
Male had blue tag and number.
Female had red tag and number.
Came from same lab as those mentioned about MW.
But these were for studdying marmosets.
Know the guy and his knowledge is tremendous.
Never gave drugs etc.
But thats a whole other story and not for internet.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

LiamRatSnake said:


> They're euthanized. I worked a short while for a massive drug company mostly with the rodents but they had beagles and primates too. They were kept remarkably well within this company (not like zoo animals of course but nothing like a PETA video) to be fair and guidelines were very strict but were always euthanized when they were finished with them. They're unsuitable for pets/zoo life. Doing a postmortem or dissecting them is usually enough to make sure of that.


Yes, this is what I thought. If the procedure doesn't kill them or require them to be euthanised, they just euthanise the animal when surplus to requirements?? This is incredibly wasteful, not to mention unethical.

Obviously (I would imagine) no animal kept in research facilities and who has had numerous procedures would ever be suitable for a 'pet' or zoo environment, but I'm perplexed as to why there are no establishments/charities rehoming the 'retirees'.. I've not heard of any. 
But then I guess the likes of Monkey World, etc, rely on the income from their hundreds of visitors and this wouldn't be an appropriate setting for ex-lab animals. Just speculation of course.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

5plusmany said:


> Yes, this is what I thought. If the procedure doesn't kill them or require them to be euthanised, they just euthanise the animal when surplus to requirements?? This is incredibly wasteful, not to mention unethical.
> 
> Obviously (I would imagine) no animal kept in research facilities and who has had numerous procedures would ever be suitable for a 'pet' or zoo environment, but I'm perplexed as to why there are no establishments/charities rehoming the 'retirees'.. I've not heard of any.
> But then I guess the likes of Monkey World, etc, rely on the income from their hundreds of visitors and this wouldn't be an appropriate setting for ex-lab animals. Just speculation of course.


I won't lie, it wasn't always pleasant but the animals aren't mistreated as such. But when they've done trials it's often important to harvest the organs to find certain results - so killing them is sometimes necessary when testing new drugs and treatments. It's not possible on live animals. I found it more wasteful that the thousands and thousands of rodents culled every year, huge compared to the amount of other animals, were incinerated. I wasn't allowed to take them home.
Anyway, my point is that they need to be killed to study what effects the drugs/treatments have had.
From my experience there are more primates euthanized for research purposes than those that were just no longer needed.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

5plusmany said:


> Yes, this is what I thought. If the procedure doesn't kill them or require them to be euthanised, they just euthanise the animal when surplus to requirements?? This is incredibly wasteful, not to mention unethical.
> 
> Obviously (I would imagine) no animal kept in research facilities and who has had numerous procedures would ever be suitable for a 'pet' or zoo environment, but I'm perplexed as to why there are no establishments/charities rehoming the 'retirees'.. I've not heard of any.
> But then I guess the likes of Monkey World, etc, rely on the income from their hundreds of visitors and this wouldn't be an appropriate setting for ex-lab animals. Just speculation of course.


Thing is
With these animals at MW
They were going to a zoo elsewhere.
Actually here in scotland.
Housing etc was built and all ready.
Pulled out at last minute when MW got involved.
Politics and publicity i guess


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

I know there was a chap up in Scotland a few years back, he'd taken in a fair few primates from Research labs. If I remember rightly it was a rehoming centre near Heathrow who organised it (could be wrong), though I don't know what the outcome was for the animals in the end.
Thing is, it's in zoos/sanctuaries best interests to take in high-profile animals like this. As you say, publicity. Just wondered if there were private keepers or sanctuaries not open to the public, who take them in too..


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## RhianB87 (Oct 25, 2009)

I know in this country testing on primates isnt taken lightly.
You have to use as little animals as possible if you can you must use other methods.
I have been to two labs (havent seen primates but saw rodents, cattle and dogs) and I have to admit that they were a lot better looked after than some pet shops and domestic homes. 
Theres a lot of legislation and laws around testing in this country.


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

There are people rehoming them, the animals centre manager at work said something about being given a number or his number passed on to a guy who rehomes them. With the plan to offer some a home.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

PPVallhunds said:


> There are people rehoming them, the animals centre manager at work said something about being given a number or his number passed on to a guy who rehomes them. With the plan to offer some a home.


Where do you work? Just out of interest


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

There is and exotic rescue near here that we know well that takes in unwanted zoo animals etc. They were offered 200 last year they managed to take in a good number and the rest went to a few other rescues around the country that they knew. TBH they are amazing monkeys and despite properly stressful conditions they were in amazing health and were quite well socialized and make a good little troupe imo.

jay


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

When its alot rehomed parks n zoos.
But singles and pairs etc can get passed on as well.
Only kill off ones for bad shxx that they need to look at organs.PM
There are lots out there with lab background.
They do it through breeders and brokers they know and trust.
Thank god they dont use internet for another young kids dream to come true.
But most wont say who or where.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> When its alot rehomed parks n zoos.
> But singles and pairs etc can get passed on as well.
> Only kill off ones for bad shxx that they need to look at organs.PM
> There are lots out there with lab background.
> ...


Yer I think most of lab's that do re home already have information on organisations that are willing to help. advertising it online could make no end of trouble. 

jay


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

5plusmany said:


> Where do you work? Just out of interest


At a college in carmarthen. Having new animal rooms, enclouers built at the moment. will have to post some pics tonight of them. But dont worrie the animal manager has worked with primates befor when he worked in a zoo.


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## Paul112 (Apr 6, 2007)

Lab animals are kept in highly controlled environments and conditions. Even if they are not directly tested on, most animals kept in research are not legally allowed to be rehomed.

From the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 (section 17A):
("Protected animal" = any living vertebrate other than man and any living cephalopod)



> *Setting free and re-homing protected animals*
> 
> (1) A person who holds a licence under this Act must not set free a relevant protected animal, or permit any person acting on their behalf to do so, unless:
> (a) the Secretary of State has consented to the setting free of the animal; or
> ...


The main problem is the last section. Whilst research primates might be in good health (3a), proving that they pose no risk to public, animal or environmental health is a major issue. Zoonosis from exotic animals is a major concern for public health, and taking into account primate pathogens such as Simian Immunodeficieny Virus, it is unlikely that the Secretary of State would grant such consent, or be willing to pay for a huge barrage of tests to rule out dangerous zoonotic risks. Points 3c and 3d are further barriers which would take some convincing.

Best,
Paul


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Paul112 said:


> Lab animals are kept in highly controlled environments and conditions. Even if they are not directly tested on, most animals kept in research are not legally allowed to be rehomed.
> 
> From the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 (section 17A):
> ("Protected animal" = any living vertebrate other than man and any living cephalopod)
> ...


Hmm that's interesting, though clearly there are ways around this as primates from laboratories ARE rehomed. Do you think they all require the permission of the Secretary of State? If that is the case, it might explain why you don't hear of it much.. 
This is from the NC3Rs website 
_Directive 2010/63/EU allows animals used or intended to be used in scientific procedures to be rehomed, provided certain conditions are met. NC3Rs staff has set out guidance for the rehoming of ex-laboratory primates, and also facilitated this by inspecting and advising on prospective homes. Primates should only be rehomed if it is clear that the process will be truly in the best interests of the individual animals, that it will not harm their welfare, and that the new home offers a good quality of life._

And this is the link to the guidance from the PSGB Laboratory Primate Newsletter, Volume 45, Number 3


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

I'd still be interested to know the numbers though :whistling2:


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## Paul112 (Apr 6, 2007)

There will be some level of rehoming, although it will also depend on individual facilities. For some organisations, allowing even unused research animals out of the secure facilities is a great risk, considering they will be kept in the same buildings where various disease models are produced, and a risk of contamination is possible.

As you've mentioned, rehoming does happen, but I assume it takes a lot of work on the part of both the research organisation and the rehoming facility.

Very interesting thread!

Best,
Paul


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## Paul112 (Apr 6, 2007)

There will be some level of rehoming, although it will also depend on individual facilities. For some organisations, allowing even unused research animals out of the secure facilities is a great risk, considering they will be kept in the same buildings where various disease models are produced, and a risk of contamination is possible.

As you've mentioned, rehoming does happen, but I assume it takes a lot of work on the part of both the research organisation and the rehoming facility.

Very interesting thread!

Best,
Paul


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Paul112 said:


> There will be some level of rehoming, although it will also depend on individual facilities. For some organisations, allowing even unused research animals out of the secure facilities is a great risk, considering they will be kept in the same buildings where various disease models are produced, and a risk of contamination is possible.
> 
> *As you've mentioned, rehoming does happen, but I assume it takes a lot of work on the part of both the research organisation and the rehoming facility.
> 
> ...


That is basically what I want to know - are there animals (in this case primates) who are euthanised but who *could *have been rehomed? It does sound like a lot of effort is required to do so!


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

5plusmany said:


> That is basically what I want to know - are there animals (in this case primates) who are euthanised but who *could *have been rehomed? It does sound like a lot of effort is required to do so!


yes is the answer. 

Jay


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