# RETF clutches



## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Hi all after making the rainchamber i have had some great success. after 2 nights of constant calling i came doen this morning to 4 clutches of eggs.
Here are the first pics, will update as they change.

the happy couple









clutches


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## Punchfish (Jun 13, 2008)

Congratulations man :2thumb:. You gonna raise them all?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Punchfish said:


> Congratulations man :2thumb:. You gonna raise them all?


yes going to keep a couple for me then the rest will be for sale.


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## LiamAndKec (Jan 23, 2009)

Nice going, knighty! =]

I adore baby Red-eyes. They're so bitty and adorable. <33


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## Punchfish (Jun 13, 2008)

Wish I could buy some, but the wife aint gonna let that happen for a while yet (new baby due in 3 weeks), wouldn't have time for them yet anyways.


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

well done Dave looking good, i said they like using the glass didnt i, make sure you keep the humity up and the eggs are not allowed to dry out to much, then hopefully next week you will have a tank full of tadpoles :2thumb:


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

Congrats man, great to see your success! Now you need to keep us updated on the clutch and tadpoles


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Nice one! Congrats to the happy couple!


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

hi people, thanks for all the messages.

will keep the thread updated daily with new pics to show the metamorphasis. will be moving the eggs over later so will post pics then.


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## Punchfish (Jun 13, 2008)

knighty said:


> will keep the thread updated daily with new pics to show the metamorphasis.


That would be pretty cool and very interesting to see. Can't wait to see the pics now.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

So i carefully removed the eggs and placed them on some artificial leaves. i then susspended the leaves over a 25L tub of dechlorinated water with a small filter running. once everything was secure i sprayed the eggs and covered the openings with a polly bag to retain the humidity. i will be spraying the eggs regularly so they do not dry out....

the eggs









suspended









The tub


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

24 hours on and the eggs are showing signs of development notice the area forming looks like a dot on the top of the egg.


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## Frogmad (Nov 10, 2008)

Congrats!!!!


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## Young996 (Jul 1, 2009)

Well done Knighty great to hear. this it as far as Ive been abill to get, just can't seem to get them to drop into the water, after day 5 it all goes wrong. wish you all the best

Cheers


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## Mbar (Aug 12, 2007)

Thats ingenious. Good luck with the next stage :smile:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

so the tads are starting to form now. the water is now up to scratch so will be ready for them to drop.

Here are the pics of the tads starting to form.........


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

nice one Dave at least you know the male did his job :2thumb:
they look good shouldnt have any problems with them hatching now i wouldnt think.
what filter are you using in the tank you are going to raise them in?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Hi rich i have a 25l tub with them susbended over to hatch into. i am using a Aqua El uni filter 360 as a filter, got it on a real slow output so there is not a mass current but enough to keep it oxygenated and clean. as they for they will be moved into 25L 50 50 land and water set ups. the final housing will be a series of 25l tubs with paper towle substrate and uvb bulbs.

quick question what temp do u heat the water to?


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

that sounds fine, temperature i used to keep the water with mine at around 24.c i found this about right any warmer and they morph quicker but are not as strong a froglet, you can go slightly lower this wont hurt they just take a bit longer to morph thats all.
only reason i asked about the filter is you dont want one that breaks the surface of the water causing bubbles the tadpoles gulp down the bubbles when mouthing at the surface and blow up like little balloons. just make sure the water return is right under the water thats all.
of course this is just my experience other people might do it different
keep up the good work : victory:


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## AndyJY (Jul 30, 2009)

simply amazing :2thumb: good luck : victory:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Thanks rich, there is no bubbles forming with the out put so should be ok, will double check though. makes sence i suppose. am getting a small heater tomorrow so will set it at 22 just incase my house heats up.

am happy for them to morph slower as they will be stronger, healthier frogs in the long run.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

really interesting pics i love this thread! hope they all come out ok for you!! :no1:


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## toxicflash (Aug 11, 2009)

CONGRATS!! cant wait till they are ready, im very interested in getting a few from you, nearer the time of sale of course but once again congrats good work!!!!


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## Darbz (Mar 22, 2009)

Knighty, bloody good job. good luck for the little ones.

If all goes well I'll definately be interested in 3 or 4 RETF's from you. But lets not count chic....Frogs....until their hatched...:lol2:


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

Well done, always good to see more captive bred animals about!!
keep up the good work

Ben


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Thanks again guys and gals.

Once they become avaliable i will put an advert up, will be reasonably priced to.

Here is the next set of pics, the tads are wrigling around well now inside the jelly so should not be long before they drop. I have done a 25 second film just to show this, will uplaod it to youtube and post a link....


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## jennlovesfrogs (Jan 22, 2009)

fabulous!! well done knighty xxx


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## Young996 (Jul 1, 2009)

Howzit knighty
Looking good, just a question, are you using any uv lighting on the eggs.

cheers


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

*excited* how are they doing today?


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## linda.t (Sep 28, 2007)

well done.: victory:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Young996 said:


> Howzit knighty
> Looking good, just a question, are you using any uv lighting on the eggs.
> cheers


Hi i am not using UV on the eggs but have a tube in place for when they drop.

The eggs are forming really well, they are all squirming around and 90% now have both eyes. Im expecting them to drop by thursday so i have compleeted the tank by adding a heater and some oxygen weed, not only to help with oxygenation but also as they will eat on the leaves and the algee it produces. I have set the heater at 22 but its maintaining its self well at 24 so i am happy with that. Will do a partial water change in the morning ready for the tadpoles.

Here are todays set of pics....



















The tank..


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## TIMOTHY AND MATILDA (Oct 31, 2008)

amazing pics,so exciting too :flrt:


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## danielle6761 (Aug 15, 2009)

wow can't wait for thursday :lol2:


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## Young996 (Jul 1, 2009)

knighty said:


> Hi i am not using UV on the eggs but have a tube in place for when they drop.


Thank You knighty, maybe that is where I have been getting it wrong. Looking good, well done


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## Frogmad (Nov 10, 2008)

those taddys are soooo cute!!!!


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

hi people here is todays update. i have lost a small percentage of 1 of the clutches due to the humidity dropping. the other 3 are doing ok so i just put it down to lesson learned. the remaining tads are all developing really well, the the bodys are forming well and they are constantly wriggling around. you can now seen the "vains" atched to the egg sack wich they will liove off for the first few days after they drop. This morning i done a 30% water change so all there is to do now is be patient, make sure the humidity does not drop again and wait....


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

The tadpoles have started to drop. they are about 3-5mm (hard to tell through the water) long and are sitting still on the bottom. They will remain there until the egg has been absorbed and then feeding will start.

i will try my best to get a picture in the morning once the uv is powered up.


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## -matty-b- (Dec 13, 2007)

great news:2thumb:

whats the survival rate of the tadpoles reaching froglets???usually


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## Young996 (Jul 1, 2009)

Great stuff really pleased for you.

cheers


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

aaaaaaaaaaah im so excited for you!

(jesus i need to get out more)


cant wait for more piccies - CONGRATS! :flrt:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

More have dropped by this morning! They are all just sat or laid on the bottom so i have not started feeding them yet.

i am going to get a specemin dish and photo one for you all to see.

I am hopping on a 60% survival rate as this is my first time breeding red eyes, not sure what the statistics are on tad - frog survival im affraid


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

hi people i found my sample dish and had to get a picture. thesr are the first set of pictures of my red eye tree frog tadpoles.


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## AndyJY (Jul 30, 2009)

good stuff . hope all goes well keep the piccies comin :2thumb: very educational thread :2thumb:


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## sphynxskin (Feb 6, 2008)

knighty said:


> Hi all after making the rainchamber i have had some great success. after 2 nights of constant calling i came doen this morning to 4 clutches of eggs.
> Here are the first pics, will update as they change.
> 
> :2thumb:congrats on your success, well done!!!
> ...


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

sphynxskin said:


> :2thumb:congrats on your success, well done!!!
> Can I ask you how long you leave the water running in the rainchamber?
> Thanks.


I ran the water on a timer as follows, the first time is on and the second is off

3.30pm - 4.30pm 
5.45pm - 6.00pm
7.30pm - 8.30pm
11.00pm - 12.00am
1.00am - 1.15am
3.45am - 4.00 am.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

I now have over 30! managed to watch one drop to, it was quality:2thumb:


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## linda.t (Sep 28, 2007)

tadpole pictures are great.


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## Darbz (Mar 22, 2009)

Fantastic! it's so exciting watching tads develop..best of luck with them mate...keep us updated.
(Chondro,don't worry, your not the only one who needs to get out more..lol)


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## Weenoff (Jun 9, 2008)

It's just fantastic Dave,

You are sooooo lucky, and you are doing one hell of a great job, I take my hat off to you.

Thanks for sharing with pics and nothing but the best of luck mate


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## mispentyouth (Jul 4, 2007)

well done mate i tried to breed these for a few years only got 1 infertile clutch . It might be an idea to split the tadpoles in to 2 groups if anything goes wrong (which i hope doesnt ) youll still have tadpoles


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## fazzarooney (Aug 24, 2009)

*red eye tree frogs*

god its mad to see these pics, i really wanna start top breed red eyes so i will be coming to u in future mate for advise if thats ok and give us a shout up if ur selling any cos i will be interested.


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

Amazingly interesting thread! Keep the regular pics coming.

Good luck with the tadpoles!


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Weenoff said:


> It's just fantastic Dave,
> 
> You are sooooo lucky, and you are doing one hell of a great job, I take my hat off to you.
> 
> Thanks for sharing with pics and nothing but the best of luck mate


no worries mate hopefully this thread will help others in the future.



mispentyouth said:


> well done mate i tried to breed these for a few years only got 1 infertile clutch . It might be an idea to split the tadpoles in to 2 groups if anything goes wrong (which i hope doesnt ) youll still have tadpoles


already in the process. once the tads are swimming i am splitting them into 2 groups and they will remain that way through out the life cycle.



fazzarooney said:


> god its mad to see these pics, i really wanna start top breed red eyes so i will be coming to u in future mate for advise if thats ok and give us a shout up if ur selling any cos i will be interested.


no worries im always happy to help. they will be for sale around the end of 
november to mid december. i am going to keep a handfull for myself then the rest will be up for grabs.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

forgot ta say there is about 55-60 dropped now. one clutch is compleetly dropped. will post pics later


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## fazzarooney (Aug 24, 2009)

*frogs for sale*

how many will survive outta of the lot?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

im hopping for a 60% minimum survival rate as this is my first time breeding red eyes.


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## fazzarooney (Aug 24, 2009)

good luck mate cant wait to start doing myself how long u had frogs for?


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## excession (Apr 11, 2009)

Wow!

They look so tiny  Good luck with them!


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

fazzarooney said:


> good luck mate cant wait to start doing myself how long u had frogs for?


i have had frogs for years mate, been a hobby on and of since i was a kid. I got seroiusly back into it about 4 or 5 years ago so all in all i would say ive got 8+ years experience in just Amphibians alone thats without the snakes, lizards, hundreds of tropical fish and zoo work in amoungst it all.


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## fazzarooney (Aug 24, 2009)

you look like u know what ur doing what size tank is ideal for a couple of red eyes cos i think i have been giving wrong info?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

fazzarooney said:


> you look like u know what ur doing what size tank is ideal for a couple of red eyes cos i think i have been giving wrong info?


A 18x18x24 minimum, bigger the better though. Lots of live plants a steady temperature and high humidity and you will stand a good chance with them


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

here is todays update.

I had a problem this morning, some of the tads had entered the filter so i removed them and covered the inlet vents with some fine mesh, i was gutted when i saw them in there as i thought they would be dead but frotunatly i only lost 1 so it was not that bad. 

All the clutches have emptyed now i have around 70 tadpoles so i am very happy with that. the tads are all swimming now and have started to eat on the plants so i will introduce them to food this evening. They are also sucking to the sides of the tank and are very alert. I have upped the temprature to 24 as i noticed it dropping in the evening by 2 or 3 degrees. Water changes are schedueled for the middle of the week. i am thinking it better to remove the tapoles and do the change, then float the tads to let the reaclimatise to the temperatures. any one withe experience on this please let me know.

here is todays set of pics, theres some more of the tads as i know you love them....

the tank, notice the tadpoles


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## naz_pixie (Oct 6, 2008)

just found this thread and read it through.. realy interesting!! the tads are looking great!!

shall keep an eye out for more pics!

x


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## Punchfish (Jun 13, 2008)

Looking good man, hope you get a high morph rate :2thumb:.


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## fazzarooney (Aug 24, 2009)

buzzing for u mate keep up the good work feel excited for yas ha ha!


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

*excited for todays update* :lol2:


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

Looking great! What will you be feeding them on? Rather than netting them out every time you do a water change Id just heat the new water to their temp before adding it, less stressful that way in my opinion.


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## TheToad888 (Dec 18, 2008)

I just keep saying wow. Breeding red eyes...


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Javeo said:


> Looking great! What will you be feeding them on? Rather than netting them out every time you do a water change Id just heat the new water to their temp before adding it, less stressful that way in my opinion.


they are being fed on fish flake, but to be honest they are eating the oxygen weed more than the flake. 

pre heating the water is not a bad idea mate, the water will be sitting in tubs to dechlorinate any ways so i suppose popping a heater in wouldnt be any extra effort.


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

Try spirulina algea flakes in that case. Most tadpoles feed mostly on plant matter.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Javeo said:


> Try spirulina algea flakes in that case. Most tadpoles feed mostly on plant matter.


were can i get them mate?

i will pst some more pics later, they are growing quiet rapidly...


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

Any aquatics shop. You can get algea tablets and wafers as well, maybe a better choice as they wont break up as fast and cloud the water like flakes can.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Javeo said:


> Any aquatics shop. You can get algea tablets and wafers as well, maybe a better choice as they wont break up as fast and cloud the water like flakes can.


ok mate i will have a look for some pellets or wafers on ebay. i would like to void any motre flakes if possable as it does make a mess.


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## sphynxskin (Feb 6, 2008)

knighty said:


> I ran the water on a timer as follows, the first time is on and the second is off
> 
> 3.30pm - 4.30pm
> 5.45pm - 6.00pm
> ...


Thanks!

have you heard of sera micron for feeding your tads on? i raise all my 
tads on it. i was given the advice from my friend, andrew grey( head of herp dept manchester museum)


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

sphynxskin said:


> Thanks!
> 
> have you heard of sera micron for feeding your tads on? i raise all my
> tads on it. i was given the advice from my friend, andrew grey( head of herp dept manchester museum)


No i have not. is it avaliable to the public?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

knighty said:


> were can i get them mate?
> 
> i will pst some more pics later, they are growing quiet rapidly...



You can get spirulina in health food shops for a fraction of the price : victory:

(here comes the hippy environmentalist in me :blush


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

I hav emanaged to find some good bargins on algee and spirulina tabs on ebay. also found some sera micron on ebay. Going to order the algee wafers now and once i get paid again will order the sera micron.....


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## sphynxskin (Feb 6, 2008)

knighty said:


> No i have not. is it avaliable to the public?


it isnt expensive and lasts ages as you feed sparingly!
I got it from fintasia aquatics in darlington, 01325286306.
£3-10 plus £1-30 p&p this was last year so may have gone up a little?
its a powered growth food used for marine fry but can be used for 
raising brine and tads.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

sphynxskin said:


> it isnt expensive and lasts ages as you feed sparingly!
> I got it from fintasia aquatics in darlington, 01325286306.
> £3-10 plus £1-30 p&p this was last year so may have gone up a little?
> its a powered growth food used for marine fry but can be used for
> raising brine and tads.


Thanks i found some on Dartfrog.co.uk, £4.99 plus P&P.


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## sphynxskin (Feb 6, 2008)

please dont mention that name to me


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

sphynxskin said:


> please dont mention that name to me


why???


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Hi peopl i done the first water change last night. i heated the water that had been dechlorinateing for 48 hours. all went well and no tadpoles were lost or hurt in the process. they have eaten nearly all the oxygen weed but the food (sera micron) arrived today along with 2 petri dishes so i will be posting some pics this evening.


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

Hooray! More photos!!

*worries that he may be getting over excited at the thought of a picture of someone elses tadpoles*


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## tannb (Mar 29, 2008)

I'm glad there is someone else as obsessed with this thread as well :lol2:

Cant wait for more pics!!


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## TheToad888 (Dec 18, 2008)

Pics pics PICS!!!! When??? I can not wait... I love tad pics and set up pics.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

well sorry the pics are a little late got hooked on the football, roll on south africa!!

any way wont keep you waiting any more. These are the best tad pics so far, i used a petri dish rather than a tub and found my 10x zoom eye piece i taped over the lens.


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## TheToad888 (Dec 18, 2008)

Wow. Looks nothing like a red eye lol...


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

yer your right, when they first morph they are brown with yellow eyes!!


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## linda.t (Sep 28, 2007)

glad to hear they are doing well : victory:


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

Nice pics! Well focused and amazing detail. Do they all lie on their side, or is it just the photo angle?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Grond said:


> Nice pics! Well focused and amazing detail. Do they all lie on their side, or is it just the photo angle?


just the photo angle mate, they are really active swimming all the time. they will lay down at times though. The last pic he is on his side.


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## xxmykyxx (Jul 16, 2009)

Awesome! :no1:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

here is 2 more


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

Almost a pity they morph! They look good in their own right.

Can't wait till they start getting limbs!!


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## TheToad888 (Dec 18, 2008)

Can't wait till they morph altogether!


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

I am looking forward to watching them change, will be so excited the first time one pops a leg!!

They started to drop on the 2nd so i would imagine it will be between the 23rd and the 30th of september the back legs will start to form. then 4 weeks after that they will have the front legs and ready to be moved into the 50/50 tank. 

My geuse is for the first one to leave the water around the 28th of october 2009.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Hi people just thought id give you todays update.

The tads are doing realy well, they have demolished the oxygen wee and are starting to eat very well. they are taking 2 feeds a day no problem now. i am currently doing 1 feed on sera micron and one on flake but after the weekend i am going to up it to 2 sera microns and 1 flake and see how they get on with that. water change is due over the weekend so i will upload some more pics then


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## Young996 (Jul 1, 2009)

Howzit knighty

Your tadpoles are looking great, have yours started to get alot darker near the tail? also when you had your eggs in incubation what temp did you keep the air round them at? Thanks for the help


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

the water bellow was at 24 and the eggs were misted daily. kept the tank 90% covered so that it could get some ventilation.


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## Young996 (Jul 1, 2009)

Thank you


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

No problem mate.

# WOW this is the 100th post on this thread!! Will celebrate with losts of pics once i get my batteries #

Ok so for todays update.........

the tads are really growing now and monstering through 3 feeds a day. I have started doing 25% water changes every 2 days now to cope with the waste. I have purchased the tanks for the 50/50 set up and the froglet raising tanks but i will hold the pictures off until they are ready to be used. 

I have lost 2 tadpoles now in total so i think things are going ok. ! was disfigured from when it dropped so i dont think it had much chance


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

Thats pretty good going though! If you only lose two you'll be well choughed I imagine!


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

if i only loose 2 i will be over the moon!!

i would imagine in reality in between know and them becoming frogs i will loose a couple more though. my final count was 48 tadpoles so if i get 35 ill be happy.

there was a slight miss count on the original 70, im my excitment i was counting reflections..........:blush:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Hi people time for todays upodate, and pics!

The tads are still doing really well, eating and growing like monsters. due for another water change tonight or tommorrow morning.


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## Young996 (Jul 1, 2009)

Looking great, bet you cant help yourself taking a look when you walk past them. I have a few more questions for you if that is ok. Do tadpoles have gills, they seem to go to the surface a lot? and how do you prevent a film/scum(not quite like scum) forming on the surface? I have to use a small net to scoop it up. I also do two water changes a week. Sorry for all the questions, Cheers


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

Nice pics. How long are they now?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Young996 said:


> Looking great, bet you cant help yourself taking a look when you walk past them. I have a few more questions for you if that is ok. Do tadpoles have gills, they seem to go to the surface a lot? and how do you prevent a film/scum(not quite like scum) forming on the surface? I have to use a small net to scoop it up. I also do two water changes a week. Sorry for all the questions, Cheers


no worries mate. 
What are you feeding? flake will cloud the water up. they are well equiped to breath under water so i would not worrie, mine go up to the top and feed on the sera micron and occasionaly they go up and take a bubble. have you checked the water parameters? 
are you using a filter?



Grond said:


> Nice pics. How long are they now?


the largest is 28mm now, messured last night while taking photos.


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## Young996 (Jul 1, 2009)

I'm feeding them on Dendrovit Pro-Aktiv Tadpole Powder (A premium mixture containing vitamins, amino acids, trace-elements and additives, which are necessary for rearing tadpoles. Using this mixture will have the following advantages: Reduced incidence of spindly leg syndrome Fast and healthy growth of the tadpoles No pollution of the water when feeding moderately 100ml) twice a day and I'm also using ENT Tadpole Tea (1L)
(An additive for tadpole water which enhances the quality as well as providing natural anti-bacterial and anti-fungal properties.) i put in when i do a water change both from dartfrog. The filter I use is the Eheim classic 2213 witch i think is the same as yourself. I've checked the water with both Hp test kit which reads between 7.0 and 7.2 and Ammonia test strips witch read as being ideal, are there any other test i can carry out? They are looking good but don't really want to lose any. Also how do you heat the water before you do a water change? I take a bucket and put hot water in it then put the bottles of still water into the bucket then use a temp stat to heat to the right temp in the new water. Thanks again for the help


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

the only level of amonia that is ideal is 0!you can also test for nitrate and nitrite.

Sera Micron was advised to me by a friend of the head of herpetology at manchester museum, thats what they raise all theres on. I also have U.V and i feed Sera flakes as well as fresh oxygen weed. I only have a small filter in the tadpole tank as they do not like heavy currents. 

When i do a water change i fill a bucket 24 hours before and place a aquatic heater set at 24 deg in the backet. once the water has reached temperature i take 25% out of the tank and put the fresh water in. I tturn the filter oif when i do it.


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## Young996 (Jul 1, 2009)

Cheers

Sorry the ammonia reads as 0. I will phone the aquarium shop and find out if they sell Sera Micron and try and get some as well as nitrate and nitrite test kits. I'm also using 10% uv and have some oxygen weed in the tank. I have the filter turned down so there isn't a big current. I like the idea on heating the water will try that the next time. Thanks again


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## MangieB (Jan 19, 2009)

It has been really cool to read through this thread, I have always loved RETF since I was wee, would love one someday, but it has been so interesting to see the whole process.....and indeed continue to watch and learn as they grow onto become the awesome creatures they are in maturity. Thanks for sharing....what an extra load of work on top of all you have to keep yourself busy with....but it is FAB!


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## red-eyed tree frog man (Sep 1, 2009)

hi when you are ready to sell the frogs can you pm me because i am very interested ty, alex


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

red-eyed tree frog man said:


> hi when you are ready to sell the frogs can you pm me because i am very interested ty, alex


i will do mate, send me a friend request.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

hello people here is todays update and pics.

i done a 25% water change and cleaned the filter yesterday. the tadpoles are all eating very fiercly now and are all growing quiet quick.

these pics are of the largest tadpole, he is 29.5mm long and 5mm wide...


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

Still look stunning! 

Is it me or are they starting to go green?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

eeeeeeee im so excited to see these start to morph! its killing me!

(oh god i need to get out more)


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Grond said:


> Still look stunning!
> 
> Is it me or are they starting to go green?


I think it may just be the light, when they leave the water they are not green straight away.


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## sphynxskin (Feb 6, 2008)

sorry i've read your quote wrong


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

sphynxskin said:


> sorry i've read your quote wrong


???:lol2:


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

Hi Dave
nice to see things are still going well with the tadpoles. I think the colour of the froglet might have something to do with were the parents originate from as all my froglets left the water green in fact near minutures of the adults red eyes as well. got some photos of the last batch on my mobile ill see if i can upload them for you.
will be interesting to see what colour yours morph at:mf_dribble:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

richie.b said:


> Hi Dave
> nice to see things are still going well with the tadpoles. I think the colour of the froglet might have something to do with were the parents originate from as all my froglets left the water green in fact near minutures of the adults red eyes as well. got some photos of the last batch on my mobile ill see if i can upload them for you.
> will be interesting to see what colour yours morph at:mf_dribble:


wow thats quiet interesting, all the ltrature and photos i have seen say the leave the water brown with yellow eyes, colouring in a few weeks. would be good to see ya pics mate.

Im pretty excited to, would be even more excited if the was xynthatic


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## red-eyed tree frog man (Sep 1, 2009)

*Retf*

Hi how are the Tads doing and when will the frog be ready for sale when they morph


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

the tads are due out of the water around the end of october. I will not be letting them go until i am happy they are feeding and growing ok. i would sy mid to late november 09


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

hi peeps just thought id jump in with a quick update.

i done 30% water change yesterday and the tads are doing really well. i have increased the feeding again as they are monstering through it now. avberage size is 25mm but i have a few huge ones.

will post some pics when i get home


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## red-eyed tree frog man (Sep 1, 2009)

your so lucky i love red eyes and i really want to breed now


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

here is an update with pics!!!

the tads are doing fab






















































They should start getting hind legs within the next 7-10 days now.


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## Nix (Jan 23, 2008)

Looking good knighty! 

This thread (or a condensed version) should be made a sticky I think!


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## red-eyed tree frog man (Sep 1, 2009)

*hey*

have the tads got any legs yet i would love to see them when they come out of the water maybe you could make a vid instead (just a suggestion)


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## red-eyed tree frog man (Sep 1, 2009)

*hey*

have the tads got any legs yet i would love to see them when they come out of the water maybe you could make a vid instead (just a suggestion)


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

Excellent! Can't wait for the legs!

Not lost any more?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Grond said:


> Excellent! Can't wait for the legs!
> 
> Not lost any more?


I have lost 1 more mate so thats 3 total, not bad out of 40 odd.



red-eyed tree frog man said:


> have the tads got any legs yet i would love to see them when they come out of the water maybe you could make a vid instead (just a suggestion)


legs should be in the next 7-10 days. will make a video in the wek and you tube it.



Nix said:


> Looking good knighty!
> 
> This thread (or a condensed version) should be made a sticky I think!


im all for that, got over 3000 views so people must be interested...... MODS?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Hi peeps just a quick update.

The tads are due to start developing there rear legs very soon so i have slightly increased the amount of U.V they are exposed to. I have done this by cutting the container lid in half and replacing it with clear plastic, thus allowing mor light through. I have also took the temp up to 24 degrees. The feeding is now on 2 sera micron and 1 large flake feed every day. Water changes are being done every 2 days at 20% a time and all waste is being removed. will get some pics uploaded soon.........


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

*Last pics before the legs*

Hi people the tadpoles are due to start growing there himd legs any day know so whilst cleaning them out i thought id take the opertunity to take a last set of pics of them before the changes start. Once the legs start to grow i will update the pics and continue the thread untill they leave the water.

I have had alot of PMs latley asking me when they will be read and how much i will be charging. They are due to leave the water late october to mid november, but as with any metamophasis this is all down to the tadpoles themselfs and the water temperatures. Once they leave the water i will want to see them feeding before sale, as to garente good stock. The pricw will be some were around £20-£30 pounds but i will offer discount on bulk buys.

Any ways here is the pics.........


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

I've enjoyed following this thread Dave, keep it up. Must get off my backside and have a crack at the Waxy Monkeys!.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Alex M said:


> I've enjoyed following this thread Dave, keep it up. Must get off my backside and have a crack at the Waxy Monkeys!.


Thanks mate, hope you will be doing a similar thread with the Phyllomedusas. do you have sauvagii or bicolar?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

*Enquires*

Hi all i have decided after a Pm i recieved to open up a list for all of you that wish to put your name down on the red eyes. Please PM me with the amount you would like and i will add your name to the list. Once i have them ready and a price i will contact you all to arrang postage or collection. all postage will be via TNT at the buyers cost. 

I have a few shops and a wholesaler also interested so it will be a first come first served basis.


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

Here you go Dave as promised pictures of my last lot of retf froglets just leaving the water not very good photos taken with my phone, as you can see theyre green. The one on my hand had jumped out when i opened the lid thats why its on my hand, wouldnt recommend handling as theyre very delicate


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## sean k (Dec 20, 2007)

*froglets*

well done, great little frogs


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

richie.b said:


> Here you go Dave as promised pictures of my last lot of retf froglets just leaving the water not very good photos taken with my phone, as you can see theyre green. The one on my hand had jumped out when i opened the lid thats why its on my hand, wouldnt recommend handling as theyre very delicate
> 
> 
> image
> ...


Very nice!

And definately green!


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

very nice rich, looking forward to mine even more now!


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Ahhh I'd love to put my name down for some but won't be ready in time.


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

Random question...when you are writing the numbers...like 0.0.3 I know that the last are unsexable...but get confused...is it male female unknown?


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

ilovetoads2 said:


> Random question...when you are writing the numbers...like 0.0.3 I know that the last are unsexable...but get confused...is it male female unknown?


Male/Female/Babies


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

THanks...: victory:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Grond said:


> Male/Female/Babies


nope its.....

Male/Female/Unsexed


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## herpzane (Apr 1, 2008)

Amy tiny limbs yet?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

herpzane said:


> Amy tiny limbs yet?


not yet im affraid, the advantage is the longer they take to morph the bigger and stronger they will be as froglets.


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## pepsirat (Feb 5, 2009)

Nice:2thumb:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

starting to get very big now, all are at a very good size and there is very small pimple like lumps on some were the legs are starting to form, any day now..... then leg pics!!


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

knighty said:


> starting to get very big now, all are at a very good size and there is very small pimple like lumps on some were the legs are starting to form, any day now..... then leg pics!!


Yay!:mf_dribble:


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## tree_02 (Sep 15, 2009)

Your thread is looking good, it is kool to see all the tads changing in one go instead of watching them change on a day to day basis. I was trying to spot their legs when you went to work, i was watching them for ages ! I have now seen them, looks really kool.
Well done with the tads hun, proud of you.
love you xxxxx
:flrt:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

tree_02 said:


> Your thread is looking good, it is kool to see all the tads changing in one go instead of watching them change on a day to day basis. I was trying to spot their legs when you went to work, i was watching them for ages ! I have now seen them, looks really kool.
> Well done with the tads hun, proud of you.
> love you xxxxx
> :flrt:


thanks hun it means alot. glad you managed to find the legs. love you to xxx


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

got some pics people will post them up over lunch.


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## jennlovesfrogs (Jan 22, 2009)

can't wait to see them


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## tannb (Mar 29, 2008)

where are the pic's:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2::bash::bash:


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

We want legs!


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

WOW!!! Just been looking at this thread, brilliant the way you have posted virtually from conception to the present day. I have seen Jennlovesfrogs RETF's & they are so fascinating to watch. Looking forward to watching these develop into little Froglets :2thumb:.


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## Darbz (Mar 22, 2009)

Grond said:


> We want legs!


Rofl..


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

ok sorry i have been pretty laps.

i am struggling to get a good quality pic of the legs, but i have a plan and will try it out tonight when i do the water change. dont worry as soon as i have a pic i will upload it

in the mean time to keep you all happy i have uploaded a few feeding vids on youtube, here are the links...

YouTube - tadpoles feeding pt 1

YouTube - tadpoles feeding pt2


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

Very cool vids!

There seems to be quite a bit of difference in size between some of them, or is that just the perspective?


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## TWGarland (May 24, 2009)

Awesome vids, they look so active! :flrt:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Grond said:


> Very cool vids!
> 
> There seems to be quite a bit of difference in size between some of them, or is that just the perspective?


no that is how it is, although the size difference is not as vast as it appears in the video, there is probably 6mm seperating the largest from the smallest, but however you can tell the ones that steal the majority of the food. I am working on the asumption that as the larger ones leave the water first the smaller ones will then catch up quick. the smaller ones should also be the strongest once they leave the water.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

here we go people pictures of the legs, im very happy with how they are forming.


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

Stunning pics!

Frogs really are amazing, the way they do that!


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## xChudy (Sep 28, 2009)

absolutely fantastic reading, would love some of these, but gotta curb my myself lol


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## Punchfish (Jun 13, 2008)

Sexy. Knighty you must make a massive viv and house 20 of them in it.


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## tree_02 (Sep 15, 2009)

Been watching the tads this morning, mr legsey is looking awesome ! It is kool the way he is using his legs to swim. The babys are growing up, lol. 
Ive read your care sheet thats on bamboozoo, very very proud of you.
Well done hun. 
love you lots, mwah xxxxx:flrt:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

tree_02 said:


> Been watching the tads this morning, mr legsey is looking awesome ! It is kool the way he is using his legs to swim. The babys are growing up, lol.
> Ive read your care sheet thats on bamboozoo, very very proud of you.
> Well done hun.
> love you lots, mwah xxxxx:flrt:


Hi hun, thank you, told you ill make you proud.
Glad mr leggsy is doing ok, have you seen his legs move as he swims?

love you loads to xxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## tree_02 (Sep 15, 2009)

Yeah i can see his legs move backwards and forwards as he swims. It looks kool, they are growing up !! Your babys will be leaving home soon 
I have grown quite fond of them. But, dont get any ideas you are still only keeping two of them. If you keep anymore we will have to give the frogs, the dog, the rabbit, the guinee pig and the parrot the house and we will end up living in the shed !
mwah xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx u too xx


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

tree_02 said:


> Yeah i can see his legs move backwards and forwards as he swims. It looks kool, they are growing up !! Your babys will be leaving home soon
> I have grown quite fond of them. But, dont get any ideas you are still only keeping two of them. If you keep anymore we will have to give the frogs, the dog, the rabbit, the guinee pig and the parrot the house and we will end up living in the shed !
> mwah xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx u too xx


thats good then. no i am only keeping 2 for myself..... out of this batch anyway:lol2:. i think we can still fit a few more frogs around the house, as a tempory messure till i get the shed set up..........

Love you xxxxxxxx:flrt:


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## tree_02 (Sep 15, 2009)

knighty said:


> i think we can still fit a few more frogs around the house, as a tempory messure till i get the shed set up..........
> 
> Love you xxxxxxxx:flrt:


I really hope you are joking.... We just have enough room to sit on the sofa and eat at the dinner table... Let alone Tia having enough room to play !!
Whats next .....frogs in the bathroom, bedrooms and in the kitchen.
mmm maybe i shouldnt of given you those ideas, lol

xxxxx love you too lots :flrt:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

tree_02 said:


> I really hope you are joking.... We just have enough room to sit on the sofa and eat at the dinner table... Let alone Tia having enough room to play !!
> Whats next .....frogs in the bathroom, bedrooms and in the kitchen.
> mmm maybe i shouldnt of given you those ideas, lol
> 
> xxxxx love you too lots :flrt:


:lol2: Mmmm I have always suggested the bathroom........................

love you xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:flrt:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

update on the pics, the body shape is forming so front legs should be soon


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## callum gohrisch (Jan 8, 2009)

awwwwwwwww the baby will look funny:gasp:


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

This thread has been very educational and entertaining!

Great pics!


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

The front legs have started!!!

the large tadpole, named leggsy, has now popped his first front leg, and the second is ready to burst through. i lifted the lid to feed them and he was sat on top of the pump. he will be moved into the transitional set up once the second has developed.

The legs are already fully functional when i netted him to take photos, he climbed the net.


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

knighty said:


> The front legs have started!!!
> 
> the large tadpole, named leggsy, has now popped his first front leg, and the second is ready to burst through. i lifted the lid to feed them and he was sat on top of the pump. he will be moved into the transitional set up once the second has developed.
> 
> ...


Unbeleivable change in a couple of days!


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

They have sideways mouths?


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Can't wait to get my hands on three of these!!!


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

The transormation continues, i came down this morning to a froglet sitting on top of a plant.


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## Reaper941 (Mar 21, 2008)

I want one.


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

Thats wonderful Dave!, they are so cute


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

knighty said:


> The transormation continues, i came down this morning to a froglet sitting on top of a plant.


WOW :gasp:


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

Amazing. Really enjoyed this thread! Top marks Knighty!:notworthy:


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

There you go Dave green as well give it another day or two and its eyes will be a lot more red :2thumb:


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## tannb (Mar 29, 2008)

wow what a change, great.
Now im thinking what will i do when this thread finishes and they have all grown up:lol2:


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## TIMOTHY AND MATILDA (Oct 31, 2008)

Gorgeous!!!

I AM NOT LOOKING :flrt::flrt::lol2::lol2:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

More have left the water now and the others are speeding along very well


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

knighty said:


> More have left the water now and the others are speeding along very well
> 
> image
> image


It's amazing how they've turned green!


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

Beautiful. How big are they from nose to end? Not including the tail...I am trying to get a better idea of the age of my babies. 

How many in total have you lost by hte way?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

im not 100% on the size i will have to mesure.

i have lost 3 but i think one may have to euthanized due to a mouth deformitie


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

it looks cute like that though. Pics of some normal ones please!


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

knighty said:


> im not 100% on the size i will have to mesure.
> 
> i have lost 3 but i think one may have to euthanized due to a mouth deformitie
> 
> image image


Aww its just givin kisses :lol2: dont kill it


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

andaroo said:


> Aww its just givin kisses :lol2: dont kill it


Depends if it can eat properly I suppose.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Javeo said:


> it looks cute like that though. Pics of some normal ones please!































andaroo said:


> Aww its just givin kisses :lol2: dont kill it


This is not some thing i want or am looking forward to doing..



Grond said:


> Depends if it can eat properly I suppose.


Yes you are right, he will be given 2 days in which to feed, if he cant then i will have no option other than to euthanize the poor fella. I know it sounds cruel but i am not prepared to let it suffer or have a low quality life.
Some thing which you have to take responsibility for when captive breeding im affraid


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

knighty said:


> Yes you are right, he will be given 2 days in which to feed, if he cant then i will have no option other than to euthanize the poor fella. I know it sounds cruel but i am not prepared to let it suffer or have a low quality life.
> Some thing which you have to take responsibility for when captive breeding im affraid


I totally agree with you! Give him his chance, but if he can't feed properly it would be cruel and irresponsible to let him carry on.


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## TIMOTHY AND MATILDA (Oct 31, 2008)

I will have it if it is disabled,I have a disabled rabbit,do you think it will be able to feed?bless it :flrt::flrt::flrt:I love it


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

TIMOTHY AND MATILDA said:


> I will have it if it is disabled,I have a disabled rabbit,do you think it will be able to feed?bless it :flrt::flrt::flrt:I love it


If it can't feed, then it would be cruel for anyone to have it! It would just die a slow lingering death.

I'm sure knighty will be giving it its chance!


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

It looks like it should be able to eat, doesnt need to chew or anything so perhaps just smaller food than normal RETFs. If not I guess you could just feed it to one of your larger frogs.


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## TIMOTHY AND MATILDA (Oct 31, 2008)

Knightly If this little frog can eat I will have it and hand feed it


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## gav15 (Jan 9, 2009)

Thats amazing how much they change, they look so cool. Does the tail bit just drop off?


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## linda.t (Sep 28, 2007)

they are looking great.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

thanks people

The froglets with cleft pallet were unable to feed so they had to be euthanized. unfortunate but fair.

here are some more pics


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## TIMOTHY AND MATILDA (Oct 31, 2008)

That is sad,but best for the froggy in the long run

The babies are so cute :flrt::flrt:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

here is a video of one of the tadpoles hours before leaving the water

Videos - TREE FROG WORLD


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## fazzarooney (Aug 24, 2009)

so how many have survived?


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

Some of those seem a lot browner.

Is there much colour variation?


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Grond said:


> Some of those seem a lot browner.
> 
> Is there much colour variation?


I think they just look like that because they are further behind in the metamorphosis.
The browner ones seem to have longer tails.


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## Gemificus (Jan 26, 2007)

I'm gonna be the really sad person who asks what kind of camera are you using for those photo's?

i love RETF by the way and one day will have some of my own what are you doing with the frogs once they are big enough are you selling them or keeping them? 

when will they start to turn green like there parents?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Gemificus said:


> I'm gonna be the really sad person who asks what kind of camera are you using for those photo's?
> 
> i love RETF by the way and one day will have some of my own what are you doing with the frogs once they are big enough are you selling them or keeping them?
> 
> when will they start to turn green like there parents?


I am using a samsung D60 with a macro attachment. I will be keeping a couple and then selling the rest. As they mature there colours will come through, around 6 weeks of age.



fazzarooney said:


> so how many have survived?


i have 35 ish between tadpoles and froglets.



Grond said:


> Some of those seem a lot browner.
> 
> Is there much colour variation?


They seem to leave the water a green colour, darken as they absorb there tails then lighten up again. May be change in temperature, body structure i really dont know


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Will be updating the thread with some more pictures soon. i have not forgot!


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

knighty said:


> Will be updating the thread with some more pictures soon. i have not forgot!


Are any of the tails going yet?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Yes the tails are going and they should start to feed soon.

I have been suffering a few set backs with metomorphosis, but me and a few of the other EKs are working on the cause.... 

will keep you up dated


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## Young996 (Jul 1, 2009)

Howzit Knighty

They are looking really good and healthy. Could you please post a pic of the setup you have them in at the moment. Well done

Cheers


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

How are those little froggies doing?


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## jack14 (Oct 4, 2008)

you got any updated pics : victory:
would love to see them now


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## TIMOTHY AND MATILDA (Oct 31, 2008)

so would I :flrt::flrt:


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

Piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiics! :2thumb:


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## ed177 (Nov 8, 2009)

thts great man :2thumb:


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

updates!? :flrt:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Sorry for the delay, and excuse the long post that is about to follow....

The first 15-20 froglets that left the water had a deformed lower jaw. After speaking to a few people on here, a thread on dendroboard and a highly reconised profesional in the field no concreat conclusion was found. A few suggestions were phosphates in my water, i got a water report from my supplyer and there were no traces and also to be 100% i changed to bottled rather than dechlorinated water. Another suggestion was Chytrid being present in one of the parents, so whilst i teated them i also started to treat the froglets. After a few days of treatment a few died and i was then puzzled. I decided that the best thing i could do was to fid out if A-there was an internal parasite present and B- had the frogs with the deformed lower jaws been able to eat. I done a PM on a freshly deceased froglet and found no signs of parasites but i did find feces and a small amount of food in the stomach. I have continued to treat all newly metomorphasised frogs for Chytrid now as a matter of course, and the froghets that have been strong enough to survive have started to feed and grow well. The partents are doing fine and to be honest the treatment was more prevention than cure as i have had them for years now and have never had a sign of illness. The final theory was over supplymentation in the adults, however i only supplyment twice a week, one of vitamins and one of calcium so this theory is hard to judge but is still a high possibility. One theory that was not considered by my self or others was pollution in the water via disposed birth controll. In the usa there have been many frogs found with extra limbs, missing limbs and even frogs which have changed sex due to estrogen in the breeding water. Could this be effecting the water in our supplys. yes it is a long shot but is pollution not part of the crisis amphibians are facing???

There are still 20 odd tadpoles ready to leave the water and i have high hopes that these will make it. The lower jaw deformities have been less and less drastic with each new frog.

I have all the deceased froglets frozen, and i have stool samples from all my adults due to be tested as soon as "Mr A" can collect them for testing. If or when i find out the cause of this deformatie i will let every one know that that future attemps can be successfull.


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

knighty said:


> Sorry for the delay, and excuse the long post that is about to follow....
> 
> The first 15-20 froglets that left the water had a deformed lower jaw. After speaking to a few people on here, a thread on dendroboard and a highly reconised profesional in the field no concreat conclusion was found. A few suggestions were phosphates in my water, i got a water report from my supplyer and there were no traces and also to be 100% i changed to bottled rather than dechlorinated water. Another suggestion was Chytrid being present in one of the parents, so whilst i teated them i also started to treat the froglets. After a few days of treatment a few died and i was then puzzled. I decided that the best thing i could do was to fid out if A-there was an internal parasite present and B- had the frogs with the deformed lower jaws been able to eat. I done a PM on a freshly deceased froglet and found no signs of parasites but i did find feces and a small amount of food in the stomach. I have continued to treat all newly metomorphasised frogs for Chytrid now as a matter of course, and the froghets that have been strong enough to survive have started to feed and grow well. The partents are doing fine and to be honest the treatment was more prevention than cure as i have had them for years now and have never had a sign of illness. The final theory was over supplymentation in the adults, however i only supplyment twice a week, one of vitamins and one of calcium so this theory is hard to judge but is still a high possibility. One theory that was not considered by my self or others was pollution in the water via disposed birth controll. In the usa there have been many frogs found with extra limbs, missing limbs and even frogs which have changed sex due to estrogen in the breeding water. Could this be effecting the water in our supplys. yes it is a long shot but is pollution not part of the crisis amphibians are facing???
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update Knighty.

I bet you're gutted. I am after following their progress from the start and they're not my frogs!

Good luck with the rest. Let us know how you get on. : victory:


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

I've had people ask about this before, the jaw not forming or being concaved into the mouth seems to be a bit of a problem in these although I've not come across it personally.
Going on your comment about Phosphates. Phosphates allow algae and aquatic vegetation to grow, tadpoles eat algae and algae is a very good source of calcium, as you know calcium is needed to form bones, a lack of phosphates = a lack of algae = a lack of calcium in the tadpoles diet so a good quality food high in algae such as Spirulina is essential. What have you been feeding them?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

pollywog said:


> I've had people ask about this before, the jaw not forming or being concaved into the mouth seems to be a bit of a problem in these although I've not come across it personally.
> Going on your comment about Phosphates. Phosphates allow algae and aquatic vegetation to grow, tadpoles eat algae and algae is a very good source of calcium, as you know calcium is needed to form bones, a lack of phosphates = a lack of algae = a lack of calcium in the tadpoles diet so a good quality food high in algae such as Spirulina is essential. What have you been feeding them?


Hi andrew i have been feeding them on a mix of live aquatic plants, Sera Micron and sera pro vit fish flakes. There is algee on the sides of the tank and all over the thermometer. what level of phostphates would you recomend as A member of DB suggest that phosphates can be the cause of this?

Thanks

Dave


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

knighty said:


> Hi andrew i have been feeding them on a mix of live aquatic plants, Sera Micron and sera pro vit fish flakes. There is algee on the sides of the tank and all over the thermometer. what level of phostphates would you recomend as A member of DB suggest that phosphates can be the cause of this?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dave


You're looking somewhere in the region of 1-1.5 ppm, at this level you're going to get moderate algae growth. A higher level of Phosphate as far as I'm aware won't harm the tadpoles but may start to turn the water too green which will cause a drop in the dissolved oxygen causing the water to become stagnant.
Do you know the full water parameters in your rearing tank (ph, kh, gh)?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

yes the 
ph is 7.2 
the Nitrate and nitrite is 0 
and the amonia is also 0
I dont know the hardness sorry but i can get it tested.

Is there any way i can add calcium to the water?


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## Young996 (Jul 1, 2009)

Sorry to hear you have lost a good few. I would be interested in what you find out. Best of luck for the rest of the tadpoles. 

cheers


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

knighty said:


> I dont know the hardness sorry but i can get it tested.
> 
> Is there any way i can add calcium to the water?


The hardness will tell you how much calcium is in the water.


I wouldn't change it now and it shouldn't have an effect on the tadpoles bone development but with future batches you may also like to try a lower pH.


What temperature are you keeping them at?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

pollywog said:


> The hardness will tell you how much calcium is in the water.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't change it now and it shouldn't have an effect on the tadpoles bone development but with future batches you may also like to try a lower pH.
> ...


Ok thanks i will get the hardness checked, i take it the harder the water the more calcium?

I am keeping them at 23 degrees.

What PH do you recomend?


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

knighty said:


> Ok thanks i will get the hardness checked, i take it the harder the water the more calcium?
> 
> I am keeping them at 23 degrees.
> 
> What PH do you recomend?


The GH tells you how much Calcium & Magnesium is in the water, the harder the water the more Calcium & Magnesium ions are present. You want it to be slightly hard somewhere in the region of 100-200ppm.

Water temperature in Nicaragua is 23-27°C, the tadpoles will withstand temperatures a few ° either side of this range but personally I rear mine bang smack in the middle.

Natural pH range would be 6.5-7.5. My personal preferance is for a figure somewhere between 6.5-6.8. The water I use tests neutral straight from the spring and I reduce the pH by adding a few Banana Leaves - the tannins from the leaves also have other benefits. As I said this is just my preferance and shouldn't have any effect on your tadpoles development.


I actually read back through the earlier parts of this thread as I hadn't read it before and I did pick up on a few things;


It looks from your pictures that the tadpoles hatched slightly early, the eggs in one of the pictures look like they were starting to mold, this would have encouraged the tads to hatch slightly earlier than usual but isn't uncommon and shouldn't have had any effect on their later development.
I understand that you've been providing UVB to the tadpoles? This for me would ring a few alarm bells. The true effects of UVB light on tadpoles is still largely unknown, different studies have had different results; some have found that tadpoles of certain species actively avoid UVB radiation, some studies have found that high levels of UVB radiation has a negative effect on the development of certain tadpoles resulting in higher rates of mortality and or deformities, others have found that some UVB radiation can cause increased growth in certain species of tadpoles, others have found no affect either way. It's not an argument I'm going to get into but me personally I do not provide UVB to any of my tadpoles and would not advise it. Another thing to think about is that UV tubes are often used to sterilise water.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

pollywog said:


> It looks from your pictures that the tadpoles hatched slightly early, the eggs in one of the pictures look like they were starting to mold, this would have encouraged the tads to hatch slightly earlier than usual but isn't uncommon and shouldn't have had any effect on their later development.


Yes i did have a problem with a fungus/mould in one of the clutches, and to confirm your theory yes they was the first to drop. From then though i have had no problems, apart from 1 or 2 with bent tails untill the morph and leave the water.



pollywog said:


> I understand that you've been providing UVB to the tadpoles? This for me would ring a few alarm bells. The true effects of UVB light on tadpoles is still largely unknown, different studies have had different results; some have found that tadpoles of certain species actively avoid UVB radiation, some studies have found that high levels of UVB radiation has a negative effect on the development of certain tadpoles resulting in higher rates of mortality and or deformities, others have found that some UVB radiation can cause increased growth in certain species of tadpoles, others have found no affect either way. It's not an argument I'm going to get into but me personally I do not provide UVB to any of my tadpoles and would not advise it. Another thing to think about is that UV tubes are often used to sterilise water.


Ok that has give me some thing to think about? I am going to remove the UV from the remaining tank of Tadpoles and will see if there is any change. I totally agree that Uv does sterelise the water but did not think that that would cause any harm, as i have used UV on my fish tanks in the past with no problems. 

Thanks for your input it is much appriciated, i have raised the temperature to 25, and will aquire some banana leaves, although my PH is in range.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

In the end I decided I was going to bank on deficiencies or a water quality problem. Genetic problems wouldn't give 100% the same issue that involved a lot of development before it affected them. Chytrid would affect the tadpoles not the metamorphs really.

I don't think I realised you were actually providing UVB to the tadpoles, no idea how good or bad an idea this is to be honest, we provide it as soon as they met but I've never used it for tadpoles. I wouldn't have thought over supplimentation or uvb exposure caused this, for me it looks the opposite.

Also, the type of UV that is used as a steriliser is UVC  

Water hardness, pH and levels of other untested things can do much more damage than you might think. 
Another tip. Tapwater is regulated at least in some respects, bottled water is not, it could contain copper etc off the charts for all you know  it is not a safer bet.


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

What about rain water?
Plenty of that about!
Is that a safer bet?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Saedcantas said:


> Chytrid would affect the tadpoles not the metamorphs really.


Really, all the papers i have suggest that Tadpoles are some what emune due to the lack of Keratinized body parts, excluding the mouth. Once they start to metamorphosise, and the Keratin spreds, tadpoles carrying the infection then become at risk as the disease can spred through the body.

Here are some quotes from a few papers i had to hand........

"A chytrid fungus, _Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis_, causes death in post-metamorphic frogs (Nichols et al. 2001)"

"Chytrid infects the keratinized mouthparts of tadpoles.(Berger et al. 1998; Bosch et al. 2001; Bradley et al. 2002)."

"Tadpoles can be infected around their mouths, but this isn't enough to kill them. It's only when they start metamorphosing into frogs, and grow keratin in other areas, that the Chytrid fungus can spread throughout their bodies.(Bosch et al. 2001)"

"Fellers et al. (2001) found that conspicuous oral disc abnormalities including depigmented tooth rows, depigmenteed jaw sheaths, and swollen labial papillae (along the margins of the oral disc) are strongly associated with _Batrachochytrium_ infection"

"Tadpoles and froglets may demonstrate abnormal mouthparts. These abnormalities are difficult to detect and require expertise."

Im however far from ruling out water conditions, or the effects of UVB. I have the tadpoles now at 25, a ph of 6.8 and NO UVB. It may be too late as but its worth a go, some have only just started to form the hind legs so its fingers crossed time. I have ordered a complete water testing kit, and am considering an RO unit so next time i can have complete controll over the water. I appriciat what you are saying about bottled water, thus all my frogs have treated tap water.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

I ought to have phrased it better.

I mean't if it was Chytrid in the adults, you would expect to see effects in the tadpoles before they even reached metamorphosis, at which point you would expect the remainder to be hit hard.
Rather than 100% of the problems occurring on metamorphosis.


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

Did the adults die or did I miss something? If it was chytrid in the adults they would be dead by now wouldnt they? As a matter of fact, if it was this then you would probably be noticing it with your other amphibs as it is spread through water and water droplets...even the air you breathe has those so if they are in the same room it would undoubtebly effect them...I think this fungus is being blamed for too much. Once an amphib is in your care and it is healthy it is an unlikely occurance unless an infected animal is brought in, right?:blush:


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

ilovetoads2 said:


> Once an amphib is in your care and it is healthy it is an unlikely occurance unless an infected animal is brought in, right?:blush:


It doesn't come out of nowhere, no 

I'm of the opinion that Chytrid is very, very unlikely to be the cause of this 
But individuals or whole species can be partially or fully resistant to the disease.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

ilovetoads2 said:


> Did the adults die or did I miss something? If it was chytrid in the adults they would be dead by now wouldnt they? As a matter of fact, if it was this then you would probably be noticing it with your other amphibs as it is spread through water and water droplets...even the air you breathe has those so if they are in the same room it would undoubtebly effect them...I think this fungus is being blamed for too much. Once an amphib is in your care and it is healthy it is an unlikely occurance unless an infected animal is brought in, right?:blush:


Chytrid travesl through water, BD by nature is an aquatic fungus and is also carried in water vapour. It only takes one zoospore to start the infection as the zoospores will multiplie and keep reinfecting the frog. Capitivity does reduce the risk, BUt by no means makes the immune. It only takes one infected frog to start the chain and Chytrid has already been found in several locations through birtain.

None of my A.Callidryas adults have died nor are they showing any signs of BD. A.Callidryas may well be one of the resiliant species as they are still uneffected in the wild, however i do think that they are still at risk. this picture of a dyeing red eye (submitted by by an RFUK member) has stricking resembalance to a frog infected with Chytrid












Saedcantas said:


> It doesn't come out of nowhere, no
> 
> I'm of the opinion that Chytrid is very, very unlikely to be the cause of this
> But individuals or whole species can be partially or fully resistant to the disease.


I agree i personal do not think it is chytid, i am very with you on the water parameters to be honest.

Dave


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## Seansmegghead (Nov 17, 2009)

If this bottled water is for human consumption make sure it hasnt got flouride in it.

water suppliers dont have to tell u they are putting it in tap water so i presume that may be the same with bottled water supply's

also what i have read is flouride can pollute other non flouridated water.


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

I asked about this at both asda and tesco and was told that bottled water must state what is in it. If there are no ingrediants it is supposed to be pure, with no chlorine, chloramine, or anything else. But I always have a bucket outside to collect rainwater. I like to top up my tanks with it...just not a very dependable source (even in scotland) and it cant just be left to sit for weeks.


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## jack14 (Oct 4, 2008)

hi
have you got any updated pics of them ?


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## Seansmegghead (Nov 17, 2009)

ilovetoads2 said:


> I asked about this at both asda and tesco and was told that bottled water must state what is in it. If there are no ingrediants it is supposed to be pure, with no chlorine, chloramine, or anything else. But I always have a bucket outside to collect rainwater. I like to top up my tanks with it...just not a very dependable source (even in scotland) and it cant just be left to sit for weeks.


 
It still may contain flouride, plus there is a level of a ambiguity with it all
if its made with flouridated water they dont have to list it.

my advice is dont use bottled water for human consumption at all

safer using yak p*ss


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## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

What do you feed the frogletts when they have first left the water? They dont look equipt to eat crickets!!


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

If you are talking about the 17p 2 litre bottles, then I would much rather use that as is recommended by frog keepers everywhere, and breeders and vets for that matter than take the chance with the chemilcal treatments you get for fish...I have had fish die after using that stuff! 

As I say, rainwater is probably your best bet...but keeping it clean once collected is something of a chore...and if you have a few tanks as I do, you may use more than you can collect...I wonder if someone on here will test it for flouride...???


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

knighty said:


> Chytrid travesl through water, BD by nature is an aquatic fungus and is also carried in water vapour. It only takes one zoospore to start the infection as the zoospores will multiplie and keep reinfecting the frog. Capitivity does reduce the risk, BUt by no means makes the immune. It only takes one infected frog to start the chain and Chytrid has already been found in several locations through birtain.
> 
> None of my A.Callidryas adults have died nor are they showing any signs of BD. A.Callidryas may well be one of the resiliant species as they are still uneffected in the wild, however i do think that they are still at risk. this picture of a dyeing red eye (submitted by by an RFUK member) has stricking resembalance to a frog infected with Chytrid
> 
> ...


 

This is one of the frogs I was sent a couple of months ago. This particular one survived, but two of the four did not. This is not showing any of the late signs of Chytrid...the most obvious documented world wide as having "dried and flakey skin" the frogs look as though they are constantly shedding but shed less and not cleanly. They often look dehydrated. Most infected will sit in water all day long as it is thought that the fungus causes a burning sensation as it eats away at the skin...Yes, they do have a bowed head and look lathargic...but this is a still pic of a frog that had just been delivered via Royal mail with no air holes nor heat...the discolouration is due to camoflauge and I think by posting it you could be misleading lots of people.

I have sent an email and await a reply about getting an address for swabbed animals so we have somewhere reliable to turn. Once I get that back I will post a sticky and information for everyone about how to do it, properly.

In the meantime, there is a proper example of a frog with chytrid on this PDF...
http://www.wildlifehealth.org.au/AWHN_Admin/ManageWebsite%5CFactSheets%5CUploadedFiles/120/Chytridiomycosis%20in%20Australia%208%20Aug%202009%20(2.1).pdf


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

ilovetoads2 said:


> I asked about this at both asda and tesco and was told that bottled water must state what is in it. If there are no ingrediants it is supposed to be pure, with no chlorine, chloramine, or anything else. But I always have a bucket outside to collect rainwater. I like to top up my tanks with it...just not a very dependable source (even in scotland) and it cant just be left to sit for weeks.





ilovetoads2 said:


> This is one of the frogs I was sent a couple of months ago. This particular one survived, but two of the four did not. This is not showing any of the late signs of Chytrid...the most obvious documented world wide as having "dried and flakey skin" the frogs look as though they are constantly shedding but shed less and not cleanly. They often look dehydrated. Most infected will sit in water all day long as it is thought that the fungus causes a burning sensation as it eats away at the skin...Yes, they do have a bowed head and look lathargic...but this is a still pic of a frog that had just been delivered via Royal mail with no air holes nor heat...the discolouration is due to camoflauge and I think by posting it you could be misleading lots of people.
> 
> I have sent an email and await a reply about getting an address for swabbed animals so we have somewhere reliable to turn. Once I get that back I will post a sticky and information for everyone about how to do it, properly.
> 
> ...


Well thats strange, accourding to the contact with me (i still have the pms and emails) and i think the thread this frog died. Thoses are very similar to markings of hylids with early signs of chytrid. The skin does not automaticly flake, and the blotchyness is a sign of chytrid, i can happily point you to some information on chytrid and the effects if you would like. The example you tried to use is a very poor one, considering its in the same hunched position as your frog. I dont think you can call me missleading when your explanation is a PDF file which if you actually read does make your frog look like it had BD. how can you be sure it was not when you have not even got the frog PCR tested yet? I can also confirm that infected frogs do NOT always sit in the water all day, this is an early sign but is far from conclusive, I leart this from some one who actually works in a well renowned amphibain conservation centre. The skin colouration on your frog, is also not camoflage, they do not become blotchy, they do not have the capability to do that, they go light or dark and thats it. Your frog is blotchy and i am pretty sure it was BD that was the cause... sorry.

As for bottled water, how can a member of staff in tescos or asda be sure of the parameters??? I recieved a water report from my suplyer and to be faier once treated with tettra safe is alot better than bottled water. If you have managed to kill tropical fish with it i am truley amazed..
I have stopped using bottled water now for a few reasons, 1 it advised not to be brought as part of Amphibian conservation, 2, after reading a few papers it is not quiet what it seems, most are treated and are NOT straight from the ground.

You are starting to speak like an expert on matters of which i think you know very little about, you are starting to become quite deffensive and you seem to be questioning me quiet alot, is this because you dont like the fact i know alot more than you? on a previous thred you went completly of topic an asked me what i keep, well just to put you in your place here is a list of a few of the amphibians i have kept and worked with, there is more but i dont feel i need to list them all.....

Current
1.2.0 A.Callidryas
0.0.20 A.Callidryas froglets and tadpoles

Some of my previous frogs
1.1.0 R.Dennysi
0.0.1 M.Nasuta
1.1.0 B.Orientalis
0.0.1 L.caerulea
2.1.0 R.Temporaria (and they bred)
0.0.2 B.Bufo
0.0.3 T.Cristatus (proven CB)

SOME OF WHAT i have Worked with
D.Auratus
D.Tincatorius
H.Arborea
H.Cinera
H.Versicolor*
*K.Maculata
L.Caerulea
various reed frogs
african clawed frogs
and many more

Oh and just to add to that my frog shed is 60% complete so i will show you the list of species that WILL be housed in there, already have some reserved.
Theloderma corticale
Atelopus spumarius "hoogmoedi"
Phyllobates terribilis
Dendrobates auratus
Dendrobates Tinctorius
Phyllomedusa sauvagii
Trachycephalus resinifictrix
Hylomantis lemur
Excidobates mysteriosus
Mantella aurantiaca 

Now back to MY thred please.......
*
*


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

I don't want to go into depth on the whole Chytrid thing but I will make a few points.


I think people are far to quick to blame chytrid for deaths in captive amphibians, the only way to know for sure is to have the animals swabbed and tested, do not assume it's chytrid just because it looks similar to something you've seen or read about on the internet.
I think people are being scare mongered into treating animals for Chytrid, I've read and heard some very worrying things about people carrying out treatments and advising the prophylactic treatment of animals 'just to be on the safe side' using non-approved medications that for all we know are doing more harm than good.
If you suspect an amphibian to have chytrid get it tested, there are people out there that can do it, there are people out there carrying out research into the spread of chytrid in captive collections that would likely be more than happy to receive samples.


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

How am I starting to sound like an expert, Knighty? I simply looked it up last night after I saw the post which I missed earlier, and recognised my frog. The whole reason I looked it up was to find information about where I could get it tested after you said it looked like a frog with Chytrid. 

For your info, that picture was one of loads taken of all of the frogs and was sent as an example of how they looked on arrival. I stated two of the four died, and yes, both looked like that...however, I am sure this is one of them that survived, not that it matters much. 

I only questioned what frogs you kept out of curiousity Because you knew so much...you sound very threatened by simple questions. 

The fact you are getting a frog shed means nothing, either...if you think about it...anyone with money could have a huge collection...does not mean they know what they are doing. It is great you have had the oppertunity to work so closely with so many species...really, I applaud you, matter of fact, :notworthy: that might be more what you are looking for right?

I am not upset if you know more than me...the fact is...I am happy with the research that I have done to look after the animals that I am interested in keeping. WIth three kids and a life outside of frogs I do not have time to write a web site, but anyone with half a brain and patience (and research skills) can do what you are doing...which is not knock because I think it will help lots of people keep and care for their animals)

I think you are the one sounding very defensive here. The fact that you posted a pic of my frog saying it had Chytrid when you do not Know that is misleading...

Like I said. I am looking into getting my animals tested and will pass this information on when I get it. If it turns out to be Chytrid I will see what coarse of action is needed and let people know about it in case it comes in useful. I have nothing to hide, nor be ashamed of...it is not like they got it from me is it!?!

You feel free to attack me all you want. Fact is, I have never stated that I was an expert. I have never tried to mislead anyone. I stated something that I saw when I was reading that you and others might have found an interest...I did not summerise, the source is there for all to see. And the frog pictured actually WAS infected and so is a better example to use as it is not speculating.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

All im saying is you have come accross arogant on a few posts now claiming your knowledge to be better than mine, even when i told you that my temprature readings come from people that have BEEN to the vasinity of these frogs. Yes any one with money could have a shed full of frogs, difference is only some one with the skill and knowledge could maintain them. I to have a good life out side of frogs, I have a daughter, A fiancee and am planning my wedding, fact of the matter is 90% off all the information on my website did not come from re-wording other peoples work, or reaserch, it came from my own brain and knowledge i have gained over the years.

Yes i may now sound to be getting defensive, but there is only so much any one i will take. I am 99% posative that IF you even bother to get your dead A.Callidryas tested it will be BD, i have seen many images of frogs infected and this has all the signs. I felt no need to dig through my bank of images, scan one in and post it when i already had your image on my PC.

As for your sarcy comment, i do not wish for aplause or praise, i know my level of knowledge and i am thankful for the experience i have had. There is enough people on here that appriciate my help and information and i do not feel i need to argue with people whos eyes do not see passed there own nose.

dave


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

How dare you call me arrogant when you are the one who felt the need to "put me in my place"

Yes I questioned your temps...because they were lower than others recommended...but that does not mean that I think I know more than you. 
What are you saying, that if someone questions you they are arrogant. You know what...whatever you say...I am a bigger peron than this...so I hope your remaining tadpoles do well...hope you and your family have a lovely Christmas and wish you all the best in the New Year.


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## Young996 (Jul 1, 2009)

Howzit Knighty

How are the wee guys doing? I would be very interested in any updates you have on the tadpoles and any info you have found out about what may have coursed the disabilities.

Cheers


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Yeah update update!


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