# Dart frogs setup help



## Forlon Fate (Dec 30, 2011)

Hi guys, I'm in the middle of setting up a dart frog terrarium and wanted some advice before I carry on and potentially waste money on things I don't need.
I have the exo terra large x tall terrarium 90 45 90 cm complete with the compact hood. I have 2 2.0 UVB repti glo bulbs in the hood, as well as a normal cheap diall 23w compact energy saver from B&Q for light.

I am thinking of getting some bumblebee dart frogs as I have researched them and found many people saying they will climb and tend to use all of the space provided. I also intend on having a live plant setup. My questions are, what is the best way of heating this tank? And maintaining humidity? It is a big tank and my room can drop into low 60's at night. I've heard heat bulbs can be bad for them, but I don't see another way of getting the temps up. Could I buy a low wattage heat bulb and use a dome fixture placing it on the screen lid behind my hood? I've tried a heat mat on the side of the glass and it didn't do anything! 

Thanks guys


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I have a similar sized viv here and have the same concerns as yourself over heating.
To get around it I use a pair of these Lucky Reptile - Products
Low voltage and you can use any of 3 lamps to give some control over temps.
You get a lamp with a power supply to which you can add extra lamps.
The only downside I can see to these lamps is that periodically the cable connector inside will melt so needs replacing.
Other than that i`ve no issues.
To help with keeping heat and humidity in i`ve covered the top with perspex.
Here is an old photo of the viv with the 2 lamps fitted.

Mike


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## Forlon Fate (Dec 30, 2011)

Thanks for the reply, they look interesting never seen them before. Can they be used with a stat? What wattage bulbs did you use?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

No point using a stat with them, just leave them on a timer with your other lights.
You need special bulbs to use with them which are easily bought from the lamp suppliers.
20 or 35 or 50 watts up to a combined output of 105 watts, so 2 lamps will easily serve your needs.

Mike


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## Forlon Fate (Dec 30, 2011)

Would the terrarium not get too hot without a stat? On a hot day for example? Also would you recommend a mister or fogger to aid with humidity?

Many thanks


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Foggers are a waste of time so save your money.
Misting by hand or with a misting system will be fine.
No need for a stat.
It`s a big viv to heat so highly unlikely you`ll overheat it.
I don`t think i`ve ever seen mine above 25C.

Mike


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## Forlon Fate (Dec 30, 2011)

Thanks for the advice, what about night temps? It an get very cold in my room at night


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Rule of thumb for dart frogs is 25C during the day with a drop to about 18C at night.
You`ll get away with 16 at a push but there`s no harm in having a small heat mat somewhere that will help stop the temps dropping too much at nights.

Mike


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I am going to take a different route to Mike here, and advise that you heat the room, not the viv. Heating the viv in a cold room will cause you no end of steamed up glass issues, and possibly lead to drying out your substrate (I know a guy who tried it in a room that hit 14 degrees C at night, he had nothing but issues with it). Heating the room you wont get such problems with steamed up glass, and if your collection grows your room is already warm enough. You only need to get it to a steady 20 degrees C at the end of the day, at which point normal T5HO lighting will give you the extra 4-5 degrees C you want during the day.

Ade


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Maybe I should point out that I have no heating in any of my vivs.
Apart from the large one, and thats largely because it is near to the front door and is susseptible to draughts.

Mike


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Aye bud, I think most keepers have found that it's better to just keep them in warmer rooms.

The one guy I know who tried keeping vivs in cold rooms and heating the vivs gave up in the end and quit the dart hobby.

Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

In my exo's I have a false bottom and install an aquarium heater in their. It raises ambient temps and helps with humidity.


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## Forlon Fate (Dec 30, 2011)

Thanks for all the advice guys, the problem is my mum insists on turning the heating off! My room is an extension and is lower than the rest of the house 
And is therefore cooler. Is there no other way? What about having a couple of low wattage heat bulbs on the top? Hooked up to a stat and maybe an aquarium heater in a false bottom?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

My honest advice would be to reconsider keeping darts, and instead looking into keep mantellas, temperate tree frog species or caudates (eg. fire salamanders) that like cooler temperatures.

Sometimes it's best to adapt what you are keeping to the conditions that you can provide. There are some really gorgeous mantellas, newts and salamanders that will do just fine with temps a bit cooler.

Ade


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

If you think the viv will struggle for heat why not use some of these for lining the sides of the viv as they will help insulate it Natural Backgrounds - Surrey Pet Supplies
Between that and covering the viv top as I already suggested, plus a pair of those lamps for heating I doubt if you`ll have any problems.

Mike


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

If his room is getting that cold Mike, none of that is going to help. The guy I tried to help his room was dropping to 14 degrees Celsius. He struggled to get it to 20 degrees Celsius day temps, ended up with dried out substrate, then broms rotting when he upped misting to counter this. This was covering the outside of his vivs with polystyrene as well as lining the insides, and using about 3 heat mats per viv, along with a 6 tube T5HO light fitting.

If you can't get your room to 18 degrees Celsius at night, and 20 in the day, I really would recommend reconsidering going for darts. It's just not worth the aggro and dissapointment, when there are lots of phibs out there that are just as lovely but that can tolerate lower temperatures.

This isn't guess work, this is from the experience of trying to help a guy before to get his vivs warm enough in a unheated room. It left both him and me incredibly frustrated, and in the end he sold up and quit the hobby.

Ade


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

frogman955 said:


> I have a similar sized viv here and have the same concerns as yourself over heating.
> To get around it I use a pair of these Lucky Reptile - Products
> Low voltage and you can use any of 3 lamps to give some control over temps.


Above is what I said earlier.
My viv is 20C on the substrate as I type this.
A foot higher it is 25C.
There is a heat gradient in that the higher you go the warmer it is.
This is my Basti viv where I wanted a difference between the bottom of the viv and the top.
My Bastis have froglets jumping around in there.
SO, something must be right in there.
Right now the heating is off and room temperature is 23C.
Thats me done now.

Mike


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

We're not even disagreeing here Mike, it looks like we are on the surface, but not really. lol

I think the important thing here is, the ambient temperature of the room. As you say, your room is 23 degrees Celsius, and 2 of those spotlights are raising it by 2 degrees above ambient. This isn't actually that much, my T5HOs manage about 4-5 degrees, compact flourescents about 8 degrees. So somebody who's room doesn't drop below 20 degrees C in the day, heat from lighting works.

Somebody who's room doesn't dip below about 17 degrees C at night can probably get by at night using a decent heat mat.

The thing here is, somebody who's room is 14 degrees C in the day, no amount of heat mats, insulation etc is going to get the viv up past 20 degrees C in the day if they are very lucky. Not without wrecking the environment inside the viv in the process. Heck if we didn't need the humidity etc, and it wasn't incredibly dangerous, you could put an AHS in there and hit 30 degrees C easy, but that's just not an option with darts.

My only point here is, to get anywhere with darts there is a lower limit for the ambient temperature, below which you start doing more harm than good in trying to raise your viv temperature. If you are under this limit, it is far less painful to just go for a species that like cooler temperatures.

I can't keep mantellas, newts etc, because my house is too warm for them. So I keep dart frogs, who like how warm it is. I don't fit an air conditioner on my vivs, chillers on fish tanks etc etc to try to cool things down to keep the species that like lower temps, it would end up costing too much with too much to go wrong.

This is my only point here. Your advice is completely valid, just as mine is, it just depends on just how cold this room is getting, both in the day and at night.

Ade


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## Forlon Fate (Dec 30, 2011)

Thanks for all the advice guys, really appreciate it. I'm going to leave it I think, don't want to put the darts in danger. I've been reading about whites tree frogs and many people seem to use heat bulbs with them. Do you agree with that? And do you think they would be a better option


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

I would look at Mantellas. All the beauty of darts but without the heating issues.Amphibian Pricelist


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Golden mantellas specifically - most other Mantella spp. have similar temp requirements to darts. M. expectata can go cool (and do, naturally) but would also need to be cycled up to warmer temps (mid 20s) just like darts.

I agree, heating a viv by more than a couple of degrees above ambient is tricky. Much better to go with a temperate or cool-tolerant species.

Nick


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