# Smuggling in the 2020's



## loxocemus

i read recently on the facebook (i use it as a photo gallery browser and for ebike mechanics info, aaanyway) an open discussion on what is being currently smuggled from oz (from the US point of view), none of the participants said they were personally involved. so the big things to be currently posted in a sock are egernia and tiliqua, the latest must haves in the lizard hobby with prices to make it worthwhile, eg alpine tiliqua, shinglebacks depressa bells/lace etc, and Antaresia locales and morphs. again as in the past not only was the US mentioned as a smuggling route but germany also, germany has long been a destination from where they spread to other countries inc our own, it allows one to have clean hands u see.

so the hobby's past is not the past, it is our present and future.

rgds
ed


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

I have been involved with the darker side of the hobby for a number of years - not directly of course!! 

My involvement is specifically in regards to the Sungazer Lizard: Smaug giganteus - this species is endemic to South Africa yet despite the export of individuals being banned since 2015 and captive breeding still very uncommon - I still see young animals showing up in Europe, the US and Asia. 

The problem is (I am speaking about the Sungazer specifically) that most people have an vision that smuggling is all about animals stuffed in suitcases or down trousers - this is not always the case. Animals are exported in full view of the authorities because they have been given the proper documentation i.e. confirming that they are captive bred in South Africa. These documents can be obtained with a backhander or 'back scratch'. 

One 'genuine' company even had a quota of exporting 100s of babies yet only had 20-30 adult females - for a species that may only breed every 2-3 years and that only produce 1-2 young - go figure how that quota is being met!!


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## Malc

Gone are the days of Tom Crutchfield and the classic boa in a bag type smuggling operation. Airport security is now a lot tighter. There will always be smuggling, whether that's trying to evade tax and duty on **** or to provide a buyer with a reptile that has an export ban from its country of origin if demand exists, but as mentioned above the methods are / will be changing, with companies set up to front the illegal shipments.


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## loxocemus

"captive farming" is open to abuse i agree fraser, cf chondro's arriving with wild parasite loads etc. cf chondros not too long ago where a stable £350, now its £600 that's an even stronger reason to abuse the system, so is ur "cb 21' in indonesia" hatched on a "farm" or did a trapper pluck it from a branch.

do shops that can now make a bigger profit from them ask the questions they should or do they take the importers word, though i doubt there's much else they can do, though ignorance in the abuse of the system isn't much of a defence.

another species mentioned in that conversation i referenced was land mullets (Bellatorias major) which have never bred regularly in captivity, even in australia, they have been popping up in hush hush collections, without a doubt from illegal sources.

animal trafficking is one of the largest illegal trades in the world, our hobby feeds that trade, enables that trade.

this is my own opinion for what its worth (read that again), the captive farming system should be banned, the wild caught trade should be banned, will this stop smuggling no, absolutely not, but it will put a huge dent in it, make it harder to look the other way, and the hobby can maybe hold its head a little higher.

rgds
ed


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## loxocemus

those days are absolutely not gone, just carried out by even greedier people, there are regular arrests of people, especially in asia with suitcases full of little squirming socks and bags, endangered torts and turtles very often being the contents. i remember one where a smuggler had taken almost the entire population of a tortoise from a particular area, thats what smuggling is capable of, thats why its so dangerous. i remember a shingleback one in the past couple of years too.
rgds
ed



Malc said:


> Gone are the days of Tom Crutchfield and the classic boa in a bag type smuggling operation. Airport security is now a lot tighter. There will always be smuggling, whether that's trying to evade tax and duty on **** or to provide a buyer with a reptile that has an export ban from its country of origin if demand exists, but as mentioned above the methods are / will be changing, with companies set up to front the illegal shipments.


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## LiasisUK

Not condoning anything, but important thing to remember is we wouldn't have many of the species we have today if it wasn't for some dodgy behaviour in their captive history.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

This is of course true but I think Ed created this post to highlight the fact that smuggling is not something that happened years ago but something that is still happening now. I think he is also questioning whether we (the hobby) are driving individuals to take the risk of smuggling animals due to the large sums of money these individuals command.

Some of the most well known figures in our hobby have a rather colourful past - as much as they may like to preach about fighting the good fight nowadays.




LiasisUK said:


> Not condoning anything, but important thing to remember is we wouldn't have many of the species we have today if it wasn't for some dodgy behaviour in their captive history.


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## loxocemus

absolutely true but as you say not something one can condone

the common beardie exists because of smugglers, beardies are common in australia, not an "at risk" species, they breed like rabbits and the initial first few gens were to feed a hobby a fraction of the current hobby's size, everybody knows someone with a corn ball leo or beardie, we are now commonplace.

virtually every country now has a reptile hobby of their own with the US having an industry instead of a hobby. every countries hobbyists' wants the new in-fashion thing, they all want what they can't have or get, globally. just think about that for a second, there are hobbyists globally that will condone smuggling, that will buy f1's from smuggled to ease their guilt (Lanthanotus).

its not the pressure of a few in the 70's for a weird little hobby, now its a global demand on species that are more often than not "at risk" or worse.

there was a tv show in asia, that featured a baby orangutan, the smuggling of baby orangutans' increased by a huge amount, because of a tv show. our hobby is different, we want species that are on the edge of disappearing, globally, there are hobbyists all with their eyes and wallets focused on the same species.

did you know when a new frog or gecko is found they often don't release the exact location, do you know why? us, you me, their afraid the eyes of our hobby will turn towards this new must have, we are a legitimate danger to populations of animals that have globally fallen in the last 20-30yrs.

this phrase "we wouldn't have many of the species we have today if it wasn't for some dodgy behaviour in their captive history" will not be uttered in 20yrs, instead there will be a silence on the species we had a hand in disappearing.

the modern hobby, the global hobby, is a machine, a machine that consumes fauna, for what, a life in a tub or a box behind glass.

someone asked me once, in my last rant on this, if i was in fact an "anti", i replied that if i saw one of their demonstrations i would punch one of them and hug another.

rgds
ed



QUOTE="LiasisUK, post: 13419404, member: 209865"]
Not condoning anything, but important thing to remember is we wouldn't have many of the species we have today if it wasn't for some dodgy behaviour in their captive history.
[/QUOTE]


LiasisUK said:


> Not condoning anything, but important thing to remember is we wouldn't have many of the species we have today if it wasn't for some dodgy behaviour in their captive history.


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## LiasisUK

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> This is of course true but I think Ed created this post to highlight the fact that smuggling is not something that happened years ago but something that is still happening now. I think he is also questioning whether we (the hobby) are driving individuals to take the risk of smuggling animals due to the large sums of money these individuals command.
> 
> Some of the most well known figures in our hobby have a rather colourful past - as much as they may like to preach about fighting the good fight nowadays.


100% I get it. 

But who's to say the smuggled animals of today won't be the beardies of tomorrow haha


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## loxocemus

if it was for a species as common and productive as a beardie it would indeed be negligible, for a species like the Smaug it would mean wild extinction.

rgds
ed




LiasisUK said:


> 100% I get it.
> 
> But who's to say the smuggled animals of today won't be the beardies of tomorrow haha


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

I do think the hobby needs to do better and be a positive influence for future generations (of humans and animals). I firmly believe that although we may have been / are the 'issue' we can also be the solution. As resources at zoological collections around the world are stretched more and more - let suitably experienced private individuals take on the task of conserving the smaller flora and fauna of the world. 

Take my situation for example, I have been extremely successful with my Egyptian Tortoises and seem to have them dialed in fairly well. I would be more than happy if I could donate 80% of my young each year to reintroduction programmes - unfortunately that is not possible. Why? Because the issues facing this species in the wild have not been addressed. That and the fact that there is no precedence for such a release.

Again, from previous experience when a private individual tries to address some of the issues caused by the hobby - very little support is forthcoming as I have experienced with the S.O.S (Save Our Sungazers) Campaign.

This isn't a wooh is me post but although I acknowledge that humans have been the cause of many issues - we can also be the catalyst to helping with the right level of support.


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## loxocemus

fraser is the skilled optimist here, I'm the burned out pessimist 



Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I do think the hobby needs to do better and be a positive influence for future generations (of humans and animals). I firmly believe that although we may have been / are the 'issue' we can also be the solution. As resources at zoological collections around the world are stretched more and more - let suitably experienced private individuals take on the task of conserving the smaller flora and fauna of the world.
> 
> Take my situation for example, I have been extremely successful with my Egyptian Tortoises and seem to have them dialed in fairly well. I would be more than happy if I could donate 80% of my young each year to reintroduction programmes - unfortunately that is not possible. Why? Because the issues facing this species in the wild have not been addressed. That and the fact that there is no precedence for such a release.
> 
> Again, from previous experience when a private individual tries to address some of the issues caused by the hobby - very little support is forthcoming as I have experienced with the S.O.S (Save Our Sungazers) Campaign.
> 
> This isn't a wooh is me post but although I acknowledge that humans have been the cause of many issues - we can also be the catalyst to helping with the right level of support.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

I fear that for many species the greed of mankind is such (be it land, fossil fuels, food production etc) that it is almost too late for many species and although there is an appetite (as it is with me and my Sungazer and Egyptian Tortoises) the red tape and unresolved issues make it such that the reality is unfortunately very bleak. 



loxocemus said:


> fraser is the skilled optimist here, I'm the burned out pessimist


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## loxocemus

its been a heavy subject matter thread, so a small break, woof, and continue

ed.
"life is a series of dogs" (the very much missed George Carlin)




  








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## LiasisUK

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I do think the hobby needs to do better and be a positive influence for future generations (of humans and animals). I firmly believe that although we may have been / are the 'issue' we can also be the solution. As resources at zoological collections around the world are stretched more and more - let suitably experienced private individuals take on the task of conserving the smaller flora and fauna of the world.
> 
> Take my situation for example, I have been extremely successful with my Egyptian Tortoises and seem to have them dialed in fairly well. I would be more than happy if I could donate 80% of my young each year to reintroduction programmes - unfortunately that is not possible. Why? Because the issues facing this species in the wild have not been addressed. That and the fact that there is no precedence for such a release.
> 
> Again, from previous experience when a private individual tries to address some of the issues caused by the hobby - very little support is forthcoming as I have experienced with the S.O.S (Save Our Sungazers) Campaign.
> 
> This isn't a wooh is me post but although I acknowledge that humans have been the cause of many issues - we can also be the catalyst to helping with the right level of support.


My silly comments about smuggling aside.

Personally I feel the only way to truly help these species and also to actually truly 'advance the hobby' is to connect the zoo world more with hobbyists. However there are many keepers that give us a bad name in the eyes of zoos, and then there are many zoo staff who are intimidated by hardline serious reptile keepers. Though mostly it's a battle of 2 egos, you have to find the likeminded people to link the 2 worlds. I'm currently under discussion to get some endangered iguanas on loan from a zoo with the intention that half the offspring will go back into the zoo population. It was decided upon as my animals are of a distinct captive line not present in the European zoo population. 

The ridiculous thing is, many of the zoos that hold the species in question choose not to breed them or destroy the eggs of them (partially as the animals produced would be over represented genetically) yet the species still struggles with illegal smuggling from their limited wild range!!!!! 
The zoos should let more of them (and other species in the same boat) go to the private sector, this would bring down demand for smuggled animals and therefore assist with the conservation of the species. Conservation through commercialisation. 

BIAZA guidelines and stipulations dictate that zoo animals shouldn't be sold, however if the animals were traded for unrelated stock or different species with private keepers or from a group of private keepers it would still be within all the technicalities and I think would be greatly beneficial for the people and the animals.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

This is great to hear Tom but I bet this is NOT a UK Zoo as they rarely seem to participate in such collaborations with private keepers and (no offence) if you did not have these unrelated animals I doubt whether they would be as keen to work with you.

I have found that the zoo community is very bias when it comes to working with private individuals - as long as you are helping them all is well, when you need them the industry is such that they are unable to help you regardless of the individual in the zoo.

I really hope things change. 

*Please keep us posted on how you get on with this as I think this would be an excellent 'good news' story.



LiasisUK said:


> My silly comments about smuggling aside.
> 
> Personally I feel the only way to truly help these species and also to actually truly 'advance the hobby' is to connect the zoo world more with hobbyists. However there are many keepers that give us a bad name in the eyes of zoos, and then there are many zoo staff who are intimidated by hardline serious reptile keepers. Though mostly it's a battle of 2 egos, you have to find the likeminded people to link the 2 worlds. I'm currently under discussion to get some endangered iguanas on loan from a zoo with the intention that half the offspring will go back into the zoo population. It was decided upon as my animals are of a distinct captive line not present in the European zoo population.
> 
> The ridiculous thing is, many of the zoos that hold the species in question choose not to breed them or destroy the eggs of them (partially as the animals produced would be over represented genetically) yet the species still struggles with illegal smuggling from their limited wild range!!!!!
> The zoos should let more of them (and other species in the same boat) go to the private sector, this would bring down demand for smuggled animals and therefore assist with the conservation of the species. Conservation through commercialisation.
> 
> BIAZA guidelines and stipulations dictate that zoo animals shouldn't be sold, however if the animals were traded for unrelated stock or different species with private keepers or from a group of private keepers it would still be within all the technicalities and I think would be greatly beneficial for the people and the animals.


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## loxocemus

can you imagine the public optics if zoo/s were found to be supplying the private trade to combat smuggling

to us, common sense, make it unprofitable to smuggle

to the public, their %£&£in what?! their supplying the very people who are part of the problem!?

zoo funding is always on a knife edge, they couldn't be seen to be mixing with a bunch of, at best mutation obsessed hoarders, at worst the cause of some of their projects (however small the % impact on that species project is)

it would take a very brave zoo indeed

publicly its dead on arrival, the complete banning of the cf and wc trade on the other hand id bet my last billion would gather many many signatures on one of those online thingy's, to gain serious motivation in certain halls

rgds
ed


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## loxocemus

in response to this idiot (obviously a closet "anti")

lets say the cf/wc trade is banned, countless monitors iguanas tortoises "throw away species" etc are saved from a miserable torturous end, a significant black spot on the soul of the hobby is washed away

the desire for the unattainable still exists however, *the asking price per specimen increases rapidly, the motivation to smuggle is increased, not decreased, we have opened pandoras box wider and smuggling is still a curse on mankind.

we may be damned if we do and damned if we don't, do we sacrifice the few for the many...(are there any dramatic quotes I've missed)

rgds
ed
*this may not occur, its the theoretical sensible next step, it would become much harder to hide the wc "where the hell did that come from", in plain sight though, or trace f1's back to where exactly?





loxocemus said:


> can you imagine the public optics if zoo/s were found to be supplying the private trade to combat smuggling
> 
> to us, common sense, make it unprofitable to smuggle
> 
> to the public, their %£&£in what?! their supplying the very people who are part of the problem!?
> 
> zoo funding is always on a knife edge, they couldn't be seen to be mixing with a bunch of, at best mutation obsessed hoarders, at worst the cause of some of their projects (however small the % impact on that species project is)
> 
> it would take a very brave zoo indeed
> 
> publicly its dead on arrival, the complete banning of the cf and wc trade on the other hand id bet my last billion would gather many many signatures on one of those online thingy's, to gain serious motivation in certain halls
> 
> rgds
> ed


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## loxocemus

as global warming becomes so obvious, so tangible in our daily lives that even the stupidest shaven ape cant deny it (assuming trump is dead by then), a brutal light will be cast on all areas, live animal hobby's with links to smuggling of flora and fauna will not fair well at all, and may be grandfathered into extinction themselves.

rgds
ed
personally i hope the marine aquarium hobby is pounded into the $^&£ing ground, paved over pissed on and forgotten, um, just saying.


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## LiasisUK

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> This is great to hear Tom but I bet this is NOT a UK Zoo as they rarely seem to participate in such collaborations with private keepers and (no offence) if you did not have these unrelated animals I doubt whether they would be as keen to work with you.
> 
> I have found that the zoo community is very bias when it comes to working with private individuals - as long as you are helping them all is well, when you need them the industry is such that they are unable to help you regardless of the individual in the zoo.
> 
> I really hope things change.
> 
> *Please keep us posted on how you get on with this as I think this would be an excellent 'good news' story.


Correct it's not in UK so we're having to sort out CITES papers for the moving of the animals. All the UK zoos ignored my emails. 

Of course, once their is more substantial news to share I will do so.


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## loxocemus

Police catch traffickers smuggling reptiles into Europe ‘under their clothes'

The rescue mission was part of a coordinated effort between law enforcement from Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Sweden with the animals being smuggled from all over the world. Traffickers have a number of ways of bringing the rare species into Europe

“The suspects smuggled reptiles from Australia, Brazil, Mexico, South Africa and the Middle East,” says Europol. “They concealed the reptiles in personal luggage or even under their clothes.”

Reptile eggs smuggled in this way were then hatched and used for breeding purposes. Veterinarians were also discovered to have been creating fake documents for the animals so that they could be easily sold on once brought into the country illegally.

“A network of veterinarians helped the criminals by forging documents to conceal the true origin of the animals,” Europol adds. The Guardia Civil says that environmental crime has become “one of the most lucrative activities, moving billions of euros every year.” Spain is a gateway into Europe for animals like these.

"newly described species often appeared in the trade within a year of studies identifying these species were published. "


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

That is very disappointing but not surprising unfortunately.



LiasisUK said:


> All the UK zoos ignored my emails.


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## loxocemus

no but *seriously* i hope the marine aquarium hobby is pounded into the $^&£ing ground, paved over pissed on and forgotten.

since I'm off script, i also have an issue with private individuals being able to own aldabra giant tort's, to privately own an animal that lives to or exceeds two centuries is obscene. the keeper who buys the hatchling has his/her/their fun for, IF the torts lucky, 3-4 decades?, barely 20% of the lifespan, so then what, will all these hatchings then be sold on, sold on, sold on, sold on, for the next century and a half or until they get the one crap keeper that kills them.

seriously what the $%&£ was the public institution, i would imagine, thinking selling these animals to the private sector. less than two grand gets you two centuries, i think iv seen neonates as low as £1250 (or euros can't remember), it gets you an animal that helped shape darwin's theory of evolution, but hey brian at bhb has one, keeps it in a pen by the window, a "giant" tortoise, that normally roams an island, grazing like shelled cows, is in a pen.

this is not my territory so maybe im missing something, if anyone see's my mistake please enlighten me.... not about the pen that's just a tragedy, the lifespan as it relates to owning an animal that born in 2022 will be alive when, i dunno, we live on mars, we cure cancer, an animal that experiences OUR evolution.

if you can't tell, the subject leaves me somewhat aghast.

rgds
ed

Esmeralda Aldabra Giant Tortoise (actually a "he") @184yrs old


just a little edit, how many shops have baby hermans in just now (cf in europe)

here's thomas ,she was a hermanns (yes she) who died in 2013 at approx 130yrs old, so that 2021 baby in the shop or from a breeder, blessed with thomas's luck may see the year 2151?, how much does it cost to get ur own little time traveller...




  








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about £140, but whats your 130yrs plan?




  








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## Malc

loxocemus said:


> "personally i hope the marine aquarium hobby is pounded into the $^&£ing ground, paved over pissed on and forgotten, um, just saying. "
> 
> rgds
> ed


I can agree to a point, because just in the same way that there are people breeding a lot of captive bred snakes, there are those in the marine aquatics hobby breeding the bread and butter fish like clowns and many frag corals form their tanks and sell them in the same way as many of us sell our surplus hatchlings.

But a lot of stuff is still brought in wild, and there is that trend of wanting the rare and even endangered species and no doubt these are often temptation for smugglers


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## loxocemus

The EU – a main hub and destination for illegally caught exotic pets

"......The demand of European “enthusiasts” for species, whether rare in the wild or seldom available on the market, remains high, making nationally protected species and new species, which have only recently described, especially attractive • Capture of adult specimens, sexually mature or pregnant females, enables the smugglers to soon offer “captive-bred” offspring ........."


Stolen_Wildlife_III_webversion-PDF.pdf (prowildlife.de)


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## Elly66

LiasisUK said:


> Not condoning anything, but important thing to remember is we wouldn't have many of the species we have today if it wasn't for some dodgy behaviour in their captive history.


You're right we wouldn't have any animal as a pet if someone hadn't started taking from the wild.
However, we can't claim ignorance to the devastating affects of animal smuggling now and must do all we can to ensure our own want of a certain animal doesn't see us hiding behind "but we used to".


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## Swindinian

I don’t personally have a problem with animals outliving owners, as long as there is a back up plan.

I used to be very anti black market trade. Then I went through a brief phase of, well the habitats are being devastated, so perhaps better to preserve what we can in the hobby.
I have shifted back again, as I am somewhat pessimistic about the long term viability of captive populations.
There seems to be modest to minimal interest in stud books and keeping long term breeding records. The number of times breeders sell sibling pairs…. a select few think in terms of long term viability, and it all seems just a bit fragile.

Conserving habitats is the best method, and for that we need to look out and care for the people in the nations that house these precious habitats.

Andy F


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## loxocemus

**what does a 200yr aldabra backup plan look like, it will likely outlive you, ur child and ur grandchild better be a herper? is hope for the best, a plan?

ok, who has an aldabra' teetering on a tortoise table at home, what about a century backup plan, what's the plan for all these european farmed torts after the 5th decade, 6th 7th, 8th, the year of our lord 2122 and little shellie still feels like a spry 70 year old, what is the plan. when you go into a reptile shop with £140 in your hot little hand, tort table all freshly setup at home, juuuuust pause a second, when the the year of our lord 2122 comes round, I'm sorry but you'll be long gone. if you were the perfect herper (statistically, i mean c'mon) and gave shellie 5 decades of great care, he/she is still a young ball of fun ready to headbutt and/or hump a football.

is hope for the best a plan? it'll work out, a plan?, the cost of these animals is not £140, the setup, the food, the true cost of these animals is *Time. *these animals will experience a future you simply won't, and maybe even ur children's too, so what's ur plan?, standing there in front of the shop owner, little baby shellie in his hands, tick tock tick tock, like i said, *Time.*

rgds
ed



Swindinian said:


> I don’t personally have a problem with animals outliving owners, as long as there is a back up plan.
> 
> I used to be very anti black market trade. Then I went through a brief phase of, well the habitats are being devastated, so perhaps better to preserve what we can in the hobby.
> I have shifted back again, as I am somewhat pessimistic about the long term viability of captive populations.
> There seems to be modest to minimal interest in stud books and keeping long term breeding records. The number of times breeders sell sibling pairs…. a select few think in terms of long term viability, and it all seems just a bit fragile.
> 
> Conserving habitats is the best method, and for that we need to look out and care for the people in the nations that house these precious habitats.
> 
> Andy F


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## Swindinian

loxocemus said:


> **what does a 200yr aldabra backup plan look like, it will likely outlive you, ur child and ur grandchild better be a herper? is hope for the best, a plan?
> 
> ok, who has an aldabra' teetering on a tortoise table at home, what about a century backup plan, what's the plan for all these european farmed torts after the 5th decade, 6th 7th, 8th, the year of our lord 2122 and little shellie still feels like a spry 70 year old, what is the plan. when you go to snakes n adders with £140 in your hot little hand, tort table all freshly setup at home, juuuuust pause a second, when the the year of our lord 2122 comes round, I'm sorry but you'll be long gone. if you were the perfect herper (statistically, i mean c'mon) and gave shellie 5 decades of great care, he/she is still a young ball of fun ready to headbutt and/or hump a football.
> 
> is hope for the best a plan? it'll work out, a plan?, the cost of these animals is not £140, the setup, the food, the true cost of these animals is *Time. *these animals will experience a future you simply won't, and maybe even ur children's too, so what's ur plan?, standing there in front of the handsome chaz at snakes and adders, little baby shellie in his hands, tick tock tick tock, like i said, *Time.*
> 
> rgds
> ed


Ed are you criticising Chaz?

I see some very positive influences from his take on the hobby.

What would you do differently?
Are you a net benefit to the hobby or a net detractor (self assessment).

I don’t keep Chelonia. Therefore I don’t have nor need a plan. 

Where animals develop a close bond/attachment to their owner, then I see it can be more problematic to safely and considerately rehome them, without causing undue distress.
Perhaps this is not as critical with reptiles. Less the bond, and more the change in the environment?

Ed, if you have access to Netflix and can watch Seaspiracy, I would encourage you to watch it.
Perhaps it will shift a focus on what to feel shameful about, and what may matter more in the long run to both the human race and our ecosystems.
It appears the oceans may well play a much more critical role in climate, stability and even survival of all biological systems……


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## loxocemus

oh no at all, i just saw chaz had hermanns for sale, il edit it out to remove any unintended aspersions.

i don't know why I've veered off to torts, the lifespan issue sparked my weird brain.

what would i do differently?, you won't like this, i think the private ownership of animals that cross centuries is incredibly selfish and should not be allowed. humans have proved themselves time and again to be selfish and unreliable, animals deserve better.

my reply was not to you andy my apologies if u felt it was, it was a reply to the point of a backup plan.

as for the lack of a reptilian emotional bond, does this release one from the responsibility for an animal, especially if you produced it, il have my fun, the next 60-100 years aren't my problem, its a philosophical mad beehive I'm glad i get to leave behind.

what else, "Are you a net benefit to the hobby or a net detractor (self assessment)", im bipolar, always have been, as i age its begun to express itself differently, or skewing to one side. let me put it this way, i find the honesty more in the pessimistic than the optimistic, i find the hope for the best optimism serves the human and not the animal. i do feel the pessimism ways heavy these days, the global situation does little to lessen the weight.

cut to the chase, benefit or detractor, i mean i offer advice, some odd mods and nice pics i find, that's the one half of my brain, optimism or as close as i can feel that, the other half types posts that prompt just such a question, iv been asked straight up am i for the anti-hobby movement and i replied that if i saw one of their demonstrations i would punch one of them and hug another. what i meant was they have good animal loving hearts like us but i think their misguided on a lot of issues. what does that make me, i honestly don't know, annoying mostly, a hypocrite almost certainly, optimistic for the hobby, sadly not, therefore a detractor on this day, but tomorrow who knows..

as for looking further into the bigger issues, ie reptiles are but a drop in the said oceans, i can't I'm afraid, though I'm not blinkered, it would affect a balance i struggle to maintain, but i understand ur point.

i get the feeling i should apologise for starting this thread, no getting to the point iv prompted such a query would be more precise, but honest or uncomfortable opinions cant be hidden under a bioactive optimistic substrate. but then again its a goddamn downer i freely admit, welcome to my world.

i hope that helps/explains some.

rgds
ed





Swindinian said:


> Ed are you criticising Chaz?
> 
> I see some very positive influences from his take on the hobby.
> 
> What would you do differently?
> Are you a net benefit to the hobby or a net detractor (self assessment).
> 
> I don’t keep Chelonia. Therefore I don’t have nor need a plan.
> 
> Where animals develop a close bond/attachment to their owner, then I see it can be more problematic to safely and considerately rehome them, without causing undue distress.
> Perhaps this is not as critical with reptiles. Less the bond, and more the change in the environment?
> 
> Ed, if you have access to Netflix and can watch Seaspiracy, I would encourage you to watch it.
> Perhaps it will shift a focus on what to feel shameful about, and what may matter more in the long run to both the human race and our ecosystems.
> It appears the oceans may well play a much more critical role in climate, stability and even survival of all biological systems……


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## ian14

Ed, you don't need to apologise for this thread at all.
It's an important aspect of the hobby.
Just look at the pricelist of a certain well known London-based dealer at the right time of the year.
Look at how many "farmed" animals from Indonesia are om there. 
We all know that "farming" is simply a euphanism for wild caught.
GTPs, boelens, bloods, all on there. Do people seriously believe that Indo villagers are going out, capturing adult gravid females, caring for them, collecting their eggs, hatching them, and getting the hatchlings feeding ready to be shipped across the world? And then releasing the females again??
And even if that were the case, this practice is simply helping to wipe out the populations.


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## loxocemus

can you believe the modern hobby, with all it's problems and issues was built in many ways on these. but because they became common other species were sought out (an oversimplification because I'm simple), but where does it end, is it acceptable for the modern hobby to be a constant cycle of the rare to the common, rarer to available, on a £$^&ing knife edge, facing oblivion, yes, can you get a pair by any chance? because that is reality.





  








e.guttata.jpg




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loxocemus


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12 mo ago


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## Malc

Ed no need to apologise over starting the thread, it's raised awareness that the practice is still going on, and that (as Ian points out) the reptile trade, whilst not smuggling, is still contributing to the the impact of taking reptiles form the wild.

Interestingly there was a thread on here where someone wanted to find out what's need to bring a Royal python form the UK in to Ireland. He was informed of the paperwork and ports where the snake could legally be imported through(by Ian), to which he joked about placing it in a pillow case and just "smuggling" it back through his nearest port without filling in the required paperwork.... This does bring up the question, I wonder how many people have tried this since Brexit, claiming ignorance of the "new" requirements. Whilst this may not impact wild stocks as most (if not all) royals are captive bred these days, it's still an illegal practice.


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## loxocemus

edit, iv said enough. so just a nice pic.


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## Malc

Ed, its so nice... we must have it....I'll cover the cost to Brazil (economy of course), plus expenses (I'll stretch to a big mac and fries, even a chocolate shake as I'm feeling generous), and provide you with the pillow case to bring it back in. Just shove it down your trousers and say you're an ex porn star, no one would know


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## LiasisUK

I would keep Aldabrans. The owning of any animal is inherently selfish, yes they are longlived, but so is a parrot. It's all selfish, if you over analyse it too much it can be very negative on the brain. Humans are not nice. 



loxocemus said:


> edit, iv said enough. so just a nice pic.


Great species. Very rare. I'll take 6.


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## loxocemus

and i have no doubt you would give them great care for xx many years and then what, ur 90yrs old, your more bionics than man (tis the future) these animals you dearly love, then what, i genuinely don't understand the disconnect from, i love those big shelled "3&$tards to a 150yrs of unknown insecurity, surely you wouldn't look them in the eye and say, look, Humans are not nice, right! load er up!.

there is a universe of a difference between a 20yr old corn and a 200yr old tort, it can be negative on the brain because its supposed to be, it's what keeps us on the straight and narrow.

have animals simply become a commodity we profess our love for on facebook, and then quietly move on in the background (my own past hypocrisy is so vivid i might have a goddamn seizure)

two points, this is not even remotely personal, please believe that and please don't take it as so, two, it takes guts to put ur point of view forward in this minefield of an online hobby, where people like me pick on ur bionic bones.

rgds to u and urs
ed



LiasisUK said:


> I would keep Aldabrans. The owning of any animal is inherently selfish, yes they are longlived, but so is a parrot. It's all selfish, if you over analyse it too much it can be very negative on the brain. Humans are not nice.
> 
> 
> 
> Great species. Very rare. I'll take 6.


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## LiasisUK

No offence taken.

Who's to say I won't die in a burning car crash tomorrow and my confused relatives would have to rehome all my animals anyway


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## loxocemus

jesus wept malc, i was with you till the porn star bit.

rgds
ed
it was assumed to be effectively extinct till 2017 when an adult female Cropan's tree boa measuring 1.7m (5.6ft) was captured by locals in Ribeira, it was radio-tagged and released, and is now currently believed to be in some ex pornstars trousers, preying on squirrels looking for nuts (< that's malc's fault that last bit)



Malc said:


> Ed, its so nice... we must have it....I'll cover the cost to Brazil (economy of course), plus expenses (I'll stretch to a big mac and fries, even a chocolate shake as I'm feeling generous), and provide you with the pillow case to bring it back in. Just shove it down your trousers and say you're an ex porn star, no one would know


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## loxocemus

i see we're brothers in pessimism

ed.



LiasisUK said:


> No offence taken.
> 
> Who's to say I won't die in a burning car crash tomorrow and by confused relatives would have to rehome all my animals anyway


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## loxocemus

an odd thought, i don't think a newborn cropan's has been found, i think 12 (or 17 i can't remember) total specimens are known, mostly doa on the roads that pass thru their habitat, i wonder if their born bright red, or some other mind blowing neonate colour phase.

there is currently a predicament, their obviously not common, so is a concerted effort made to capture enough animals for a captive breeding program (though somehow i doubt their the garters of the corallus world) or hope, their scarcity, their dense and remote habitat is enough to prevent a damaging level of smuggling.

since that 2017 headline iv seen i think two online references to acquiring some, one using the discovery's details to narrow down a location. of course you don't risk it urself, but rather offer a poor subsistence farmer with a family to feed a years wages to go look, well that's different. we can espouse rights and wrongs and wring our hands, but to the farmer its just a snake, not exactly popular to begin with.

rgds
ed.

i started light, ended dark, again, goddamn it.


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## LiasisUK

In all honesty I am unsure, they look quite similar to certain localities of ruschenbergerii ( which I neeeeed).

Some good info on Corallus and some other Boa genera here: Genus Corallus | West Indian Boas


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## loxocemus

maybe something like ur subflavus (congrats on the feeding trials), they have more than a passing resemblance (to my eye at least).

rgds
ed.


LiasisUK said:


> In all honesty I am unsure, they look quite similar to certain localities of ruschenbergerii ( which I neeeeed).
> 
> Some good info on Corallus and some other Boa genera here: Genus Corallus | West Indian Boas


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## LiasisUK

Yes I can imagine that being the case. (thanks, 6 eat just standard defrost now  )


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