# Tristrams Jirds for Loan



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

This might need to be moved not sure if best in classified section?

I am looking for people who might be interested in taking some breeding pairs of Tristrams Jirds on long term loan

It would involve joining the project CENSR (www.censr.org) which is free for the first year and £40 per annum thereafter. Obviously you would be getting animals without paying for them which easily counterbalances the annual fee for the organisation.

Anyway, if you fancy joining in the breeding programme please let me know as I am desperate for more keepers to help me with what has been a very enjoyable and successful project. So successful I am swift running out of space and am nervous about having the whole population in one location. 

There are two opportunities with this species. You can take pairs involved in the conservation project who are bred for genetic diversity (unrelated pairs) or you can get involved in the fast-track domestication project whereby you select the tamest pup from any litter you breed and we arrange for that pup to stay in the breeding programme. 

The Jirds are as easy as regular gerbils to keep. You would simply be required to keep me updated on births/deaths/transfers so I can keep the Studbook up to date.

Sorry it all sounds so complicated but I promise you it isn't!!!
Let me know if you would like to get involved.


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## LyddicleaveBurrow (Aug 11, 2008)

Hi,

It's good to know that the foundation animals that you had from me have bred so successfully.
I no longer breed this species, but there are other breeders of Tristram's Jirds in the UK.

Heather.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Hi Heather

Fay, Fieval, Sami (r.i.p) & Shadi's lines did well and are being outcrossed to the two founder pairs that failed.

Nadir & Najila never did breed together but we were able to outcross one of the later females to Nadir successfully. 

Here are his pups - Gabriel, Patti, Topsy & Skitter:


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## Loderuna (Mar 9, 2010)

Very tempted, although I haven't kept gerbil types since I was little! Very industrious beasts - they used to get all the cereal boxes and toilet roll tubes to demolish.

What would be the arrangement for the babies? Will they get transferred to other members of the programme or is the breeder responsible for homing etc? I'm guessing up to 3 tanks will be needed? One for parents and one for each sex of offspring until they are homed?

I just had a read of your care guide on EKF, but I'm not sure from the pics how big these guys get? I worked with some Shaw's jirds when I was teaching, but Tristram's seem smaller in the pics?

Will do more research...:hmm:


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Loderuna said:


> What would be the arrangement for the babies? Will they get transferred to other members of the programme or is the breeder responsible for homing etc? I'm guessing up to 3 tanks will be needed? One for parents and one for each sex of offspring until they are homed?


The Studbook Keeper (me in this case) would send you an advisory when a litter is born. It basically explains who the pups would be best mated to for the benefit of the breeding programme.

You would then decide which pups you wish to pass to the relevant members who need them. Its a bit like a zoo breeding a litter of animals then passing them to other zoos who have animals awaiting mates.

You are allowed to sell any surplus to the public to help cover your costs.
If you didn't wish to sell them or couldn't place them, there will always be a place for the pups in one of the breeding programmes. 

It would be a good idea to have 2 extra tanks for the pups because you might find perhaps it takes time to get them to their new homes but hopefully we would be organised enough to take them from you and get them placed shortly after weaning. 




Loderuna said:


> I just had a read of your care guide on EKF, but I'm not sure from the pics how big these guys get? I worked with some Shaw's jirds when I was teaching, but Tristram's seem smaller in the pics?


Yes they are smaller than Shaw's. They are the same size as a regular gerbil but more fine boned and not as chunky. Their care is exactly the same as a gerbil.


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## LyddicleaveBurrow (Aug 11, 2008)

Hi,

In the original pilot of this scheme the problem of accuracy in record keeping was discussed.

In larger animals it is possible to microchip, tattoo them. In zoos smaller animals are also microchipped (Paignton Zoo microchip all of their Hazel Dormice for example).

With regard to the smaller animals like the Tristram's Jirds how is CENSR going to prove the accuracy of the records kept if the individual animals are not microchipped or tattooed? If you are purely relying on the honesty of the individual keepers then in regard to the smaller animals CENSR is no better or worse than any other small animal registry.

Members of many small animal societies provide pedigrees for their animals and the vast majority of these keepers and breeders are honest - but these pedigrees can't be proven.

CENSR is a good scheme in principle, but you can't equate it to a zoo scheme if you have no way of proving the accuracy of the records with regard to the small animals.

Heather.


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## Ratatouille (Sep 5, 2008)

Surely this will be a national studbook for these species, and people have to start to trust each other more and work together for the good of the species. Even my Emins are not microchipped, but they are all documented under CENSR and it seems to be working for us :2thumb:

Some animals are just too small to microchip and it would be cruel to try to tattoo or mark them just for our benefit :whip:

CENSR does have a photo ID facility, and the bigger animals are microchipped, so it is just the rodents that we are talking about here. We have to build a trust and work together :notworthy:


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## Loderuna (Mar 9, 2010)

Thanks for answering my questions! I will keep my eyes open for a suitable tank or 3 and let you know when I am in a position to take part. Might not be for a few months though


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## LyddicleaveBurrow (Aug 11, 2008)

Hi,

My point was that CENSR can't be compared to a zoo scheme if animals can't be individually identified. Tristram's Jirds look identical to each other so photo id is useless in this case. Photo id is only of use if the animals have distinctive markings.

If you are relying purely on the honesty of the keepers and breeders within the scheme then as far as the small animals are concerned CENSR is no better or worse than any other small animal registry. The records cannot be proven.

Heather.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Loderuna said:


> Thanks for answering my questions! I will keep my eyes open for a suitable tank or 3 and let you know when I am in a position to take part. Might not be for a few months though


No worries - would love to have you onboard : victory:


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

LyddicleaveBurrow said:


> Hi,
> 
> My point was that CENSR can't be compared to a zoo scheme if animals can't be individually identified. Tristram's Jirds look identical to each other so photo id is useless in this case. Photo id is only of use if the animals have distinctive markings.
> 
> ...


 
There are other methods in place to ensure the accuracy of our records with regard to rodents who can look similar to each other.

I am not sure why you think that zoo collections have anything special in place as they certainly do not microchip all rodents. A small number of endangered species are chipped but other than that their methods are no more sophisticated than ours. 

CENSR in my opinion CAN be compared to zoo conservation as we are doing exactly the same thing but on a private level. We face exactly the same issues as they do.

The CENSR project is not a simple registry - it is made up of co-operative breeding programmes.

I find it disappointing that such an enthusiast would want to give such negative press and try to discredit the only concerted effort to get the nation working as a team to conserve these animals and promote responsible breeding. 

We have yet to come across any problems or situations whereby our records cannot be authenticated. 

If you prefer the alternative, which is that no improvements to the pet trade are made and we simply continue to work individually and achieve nothing significant and certainly nothing like the public collections are achieving, then don't join.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Amway for Rodents :2thumb:


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

One last bump to make sure all rodent keepers have had a look at this. 

More pups born and if more dedicated keepers could get involved over the next couple of months that would be great :2thumb:

*Please note the application process to join the CENSR project

www.censr.org


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## MaMExotics (Dec 4, 2010)

*how old?*

:whistling2:How old do u have to be to join?:whistling2:


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Hi 

Full Membership is 18 + but if you are younger you can join as an Associate Member : victory:


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## LyddicleaveBurrow (Aug 11, 2008)

Hi Caroline,

I was involved in the pilot of this scheme and we found that there was no way of ensuring the accuracy of records as far as the rodents were concerned other than relying on the honesty of the keepers. If you have other methods I would love to know what they are.

It would be great if breeders and keepers can unite and work together as a team for the good of species, be they rodents or larger species. This can have its difficulties, but it would be great if it could work.

However, if you are developing a such scheme, people will ask questions about your aims and your methods. Everybody has a right to ask questions about a scheme such as CENSR, and just because somebody asks questions or makes a comment it does not mean that they are discrediting it.

Heather.


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## MaMExotics (Dec 4, 2010)

ok ty


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

LyddicleaveBurrow said:


> Hi Caroline,
> 
> I was involved in the pilot of this scheme and we found that there was no way of ensuring the accuracy of records as far as the rodents were concerned other than relying on the honesty of the keepers. If you have other methods I would love to know what they are.
> 
> ...


You are simply repeating yourself. All answers to your queries are in my last reply.

You are quite right in saying that people will ask questions. I field many questions about the logistics of the organisation. CENSR is a fully functioning project now and I can only reiterate once again that we have yet to come across any issue with the authenticity of our records. We have had the priviledge of some excellent input and continued support from individuals involved in conservation, zoo collections and relevant authorities. 

This thread is meant for placing Jirds so I would appreciate if you'd use pm to discuss the CENSR project or start a new thread to discuss publicly


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## LyddicleaveBurrow (Aug 11, 2008)

Hi,

As a matter of fact you haven't answered the questions, but have evaded them. 
You are correct that this is a thread to place Tristram's Jirds, but the points raised were relevant to the breeding project for this species.
As to CENSR as a project as a whole I have contacted you privately (via e-mail) concerning CENSR, and have posted questions on RFUK when CENSR was first promoted. 
A response to the questions raised was not forthcoming in either case.

Heather.


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## Loderuna (Mar 9, 2010)

The whole censr thing seems straightforward enough to me. A bunch of people are aiming to breed a healthy, stable captive population of animals. To do this, they are keeping records of their animals and their locations and who they get bred to. This will hopefully avoid inbreeding and allow the maintenance of a healthy population. With a bigger number of people keeping small numbers of the animals, mistakes in identity are likely to be few. If the odd error does happen, it is not the end of the world, as these are not highly finanically valuable animals - they are not going to be winning crufts or the grand national, where a pedigree error would ruin the value of the animal.

No recording system is perfect, but I don't think the aim of the group is to be perfect, just to ensure, as far as is reasonably possible, that the gene pool is as wide as possible. That way, when animals are mistakenly or ineptly bred by pet owners or deliberately inbred by money-making breeders, the UK will still have a genetically decent population of animals to fall back on.

I am interested in this jird project, but not really interested in the debate about censr or any other projects' validity in this particular thread!


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## TIMOTHY AND MATILDA (Oct 31, 2008)

I would be interested in doing this,I dont drive though:blush:What happens if I was to get too atatched to them?Do they live in colonies?What is a suitable cage for these guys?How many people do you need to sign up for this to make it work?:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

TIMOTHY AND MATILDA said:


> I would be interested in doing this,I dont drive though:blush:What happens if I was to get too atatched to them?Do they live in colonies?What is a suitable cage for these guys?How many people do you need to sign up for this to make it work?:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


Hi, thankyou for your interest. The Jirds would require a 2 - 3ft tank and yes they can live harmoniously in colonies although you would just be asked to care for one pair. You are most welcome to get attached to the adult pair but obviously you would have to be sure you could part with the pups so that they could go on to be matched with their intended mates held by other members.

Depending on where you live, the transport may not be a major issue as we use a combination of courier and help from other members where convenient. 

Regarding how many people I need, it is never ending to some degree. The populations must be controlled according to how many people sign up to each species. Again, at the risk of comparing to zoo management again, zoos have to control the offspring born according to how many facilities will be available to take the babies, regardless of how rare the animals are. 

We can't breed animals we have no carers for. Hence the fact I am now running out of space here so without the support of new keepers, I would be forced to cease breeding. 
Its kinda the point of censr in a nutshell - I have reached what I can do alone but with a network of keepers there can be a sustainable population :no1:


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## Samanthaa (Sep 21, 2009)

Hi. I'd be interested in this. Seems like a really good program.
How do I go about getting involved?


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## angelgirls29 (Jul 10, 2010)

I used to keep gerbils and the school used to breed them so I have some experience of breeding small mammals?
If you need anyone else in the summer of next year I'd be pleased to help! :flrt:


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Samanthaa said:


> Hi. I'd be interested in this. Seems like a really good program.
> How do I go about getting involved?





angelgirls29 said:


> I used to keep gerbils and the school used to breed them so I have some experience of breeding small mammals?
> If you need anyone else in the summer of next year I'd be pleased to help! :flrt:


Thankyou for your interest.

You are welcome to apply to CENSR at any time so you can keep up to speed with the Tristrams.

We have had a superb response and enough people have pledged to take a pair to solve the immediate problem but we will need a continous stream of conservation minded people joining as the population grows and more pairs need placing.

_______________________________________________

Just so everyone is aware of the amount of keepers we need to build this network - I just wanted to make clear that this is only one species we are discussing in this thread. CENSR currently has '17*'* species inducted and counting! 

The aim of the project is to look after populations of EVERY species available to us and that becomes available to us private keepers.
This is not restricted to mammals either.. we need experienced breeders from across the board from amphibian to bird to reptile.

Obviously this will take years to achieve but each person's involvement is so important.

We hope that the quickest achievement of us working as a team will be that we reduce the amount of animals that are wild caught for the pet trade because we will have self sustaining populations and no need to import/fuel the WC trade.

I hope everyone feels this project is well worth your involvement. Whether it be breeding one pair of animals, being Studbook Manager for a species and managing that population, or getting involved in the education side of things. There is a role for everyone with a passion for animals. Please sign up.

The more keepers & breeders in the country who join in to work co-operatively, the more we can achieve.


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