# Venom question



## Circe (Dec 31, 2008)

One of my colleagues asked me the other day, "If a poisonous snake (his words) bit itself, would it die?"
I wasn't actually able to answer, if you injected venom from any particular species into the same animal, would it succumb or are they immune to their own venom. I'm guessing that he meant a similar amount that the snake would use to envenomate it's prey.


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## cardinalgrom (Aug 23, 2010)

Circe said:


> One of my colleagues asked me the other day, "If a poisonous snake (his words) bit itself, would it die?"
> I wasn't actually able to answer, if you injected venom from any particular species into the same animal, would it succumb or are they immune to their own venom. I'm guessing that he meant a similar amount that the snake would use to envenomate it's prey.


so in other words "would a snake of the same venemous species kill another of its kind through venom?"

am i right?

:2thumb:


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## befxxx (Feb 12, 2010)

i watched a programme on natgeowild a couple of weeks past in which a male king cobra bit and killed a female king cobra due to it not being willing to breed with him. It took a long time to die but eventually sucumb, so they arnt immune x hope that helps?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

befxxx said:


> i watched a programme on natgeowild a couple of weeks past in which a male king cobra bit and killed a female king cobra due to it not being willing to breed with him. It took a long time to die but eventually sucumb, so they arnt immune x hope that helps?


Actually didnt he try to eat the female but couldnt manage her? If its the same programme i watched it was the suffocation and partial eating that killed her rather than the venom.


I have been told from first hand experiences of a friend that if one snake bites another of the same species then they get some swelling but otherwise no symptoms. The swelling is likely to be due to mechanical damage from the bite itself but the venom certainly wont kill members of the same species, but if one species bites another species then there can be severe reaction to the venom. Does that make sense? 

It is sensible to assume that the species will not be allergic to its own venom, even though yeild may differ between individuals, because they obviously swallow their own venom with prey and this is an important part of their digestion in many species, this will then get metabolised by the snake and will likely be in the bloodstream regardless, so extra from a bite of another individual shouldn't cause too many problems.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

chondro13 said:


> Actually didnt he try to eat the female but couldnt manage her? If its the same programme i watched it was the suffocation and partial eating that killed her rather than the venom.
> 
> 
> I have been told from first hand experiences of a friend that if one snake bites another of the same species then they get some swelling but otherwise no symptoms. The swelling is likely to be due to mechanical damage from the bite itself but the venom certainly wont kill members of the same species, but if one species bites another species then there can be severe reaction to the venom. Does that make sense?
> ...


Snakes have a high resistance to venom from their own species, but they are not totally immune and most certainly can envenomate themselves / one another. I've seen a puff adder that bit itself and was definately affected, well beyond the feasable outcome of mechanical injury.
As for having metabolised venom circulating in the bloodstream, it doesn't work that way. The venom, being primarilly made up of proteins, is denatured by stomach acid. The low pH causes a change in the tertiary structure of the protein meaning it can no longer bind with active sites in the body, resulting in no toxic effects. Protease enzymes then further break down the proteins into amino acids, peptides, and polypeptides, and absorbed in the same way as any proteins obtained from the prey. There is no active venom absorbed in the intestine, unless there is a wound through which the venom can enter the bloodstream before it is broken down.


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## Reptile_Kyle (Apr 24, 2010)

Is that not basically not the same as saying when a snake injects the venoum into a prey then eats it the venom will end up in the snakes blood system anyways when the snake begins to break down the food?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Reptile_Kyle said:


> Is that not basically not the same as saying when a snake injects the venoum into a prey then eats it the venom will end up in the snakes blood system anyways when the snake begins to break down the food?


No, Dave is correct - and much better at expressing his words than myself 

The snake can swallow and metabolise or 'break down' the venom without harming itself. But as Dave said - will not have ACTIVE venom in the blood as you would receive from injecting it into the bloodstream. The proteins would be 'recycled' but not in the same state as in the initial venom. 

To simply answer the OPs question - if one venomous snake bites another of the same species, it wont cause the horrendous symptoms and potential death that would happen should it bite prey.


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## wayakinwolf (Oct 6, 2006)

Brill thread:no1: I also saw that programme, & yes, the male couldn`t fully swallow the female as she was far bigger than him, but she certainly didn`t seem to be affected by the venom.: victory:


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## Circe (Dec 31, 2008)

Many thanks for your replies, when Dave asked me about a snake biting itself, I realised I hadn't got the faintest idea what would happen, I'm a little wiser now.


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## eddygecko (Feb 14, 2007)

Baby snake: Mummy, am I venomous?
Mummy snake: Yes we are sweetie, why do you ask?

Baby snake: Because i just bit my tongue


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## snakeskinshoes (Apr 6, 2010)

I dont know if this helps but I know that male king cobra fight for mating rights and they have a sort of unwritted rule where they dont use thier venom to right but body slam each other instead


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## Cleopatra the Royal (Nov 29, 2008)

some snakes are immune, some are not. the reason they're fine when they swallow the venom is because the peptides are effectively complex proteins which can be digested in the stomach.

hope this helps you understand
Harry


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

i remember reading about a Rattlesnake that accidentally bit itself on the tail when going after a mouse and it died a few days later, however to the best of my knowledge, same species envenomations have little or no affect on the receiver. Kingsnakes are completely immune to Rattlesnake venom, which happens to be their favorite food , likely an evolutionary success.


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## Elapidae (Jul 7, 2010)

The fact that snakes swallow their venom with prey has nothing to do with them being immune, Humans can swallow snake venom and provided they have no stomach ulcers or open wounds in their mouths ETC the stomach acid will just break it down, the drinking of snake venom is common in many cultures, that is the difference between venomous and poisonous. I am not sure about all snakes being immune to their own venom but have witnessed Brown snakes, Psuedonaja. spp in Australia bite themselves multiple times with no effect. I am under the impression that most snakes can tolerate their own venom.


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