# Inert Gas to humanely kill Rats/Mice



## herp_derp

I have been looking into starting my own Rat breeding for reptile food and the most common humane method for killing the animal is a CO2 Gas Chamber. I was just wondering if anyone uses Helium or Nitrogen as an alternative?

Certainly humans have a natural response to panic if we have too much CO2 in our lungs, it helps keep us alive but inert gases like Helium or Nitrogen will not invoke that response, you can breathe them normally for a few breaths then you will pass out and quickly die due to lack of Oxygen to the brain.

Does anyone else use these gases? Basically the method is the same but i'm wondering if small mammals have the same CO2 response us humans have. The videos i've seen do tend to show a moments panic prior to going unconscious. The fact the brain is being starved of Oxygen will cause a rapid increase in heart rate which may explain the slight frenzy of movement, that applies equally to any gas.

I don't know how the cost compares if hiring a bottle from BOC but on a smaller scale Balloon Helium tanks are cheap and have the tap built in. Really that isn't the point, i'm suggesting this may be more humane?


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## pigglywiggly

there shouldnt be mass panic if done properly.

you add a small amount till they go drowsy, them add more to finish the job.


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## eightball

as far as i know, the natural responce to having low oxygen is to breathe harder/faster which is what causes the panic right?

so really, whatever gas you put in there which reduces oxygen will cause that panic if its done fast whether its helium, co2, nitrogen, argon etc

if done slowly/correctly, "slowly" reducing the amount of oxygen in the air you dont suddenly notice so you dont panic, you simply go to sleep


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## herp_derp

My understanding is as a human if you tried this (don't obviously!) but breathing CO2 would give you a suffocation response but breathing helium/nitrogen doesn't, your heart rate will increase but you won't feel like your suffocating. That's why there a lots of precautions when you work with nitrogen in enclosed spaces as you may not realise it's killing you until it's too late, same with Carbon Monoxide when it kills people in their sleep. It's also the reason why Helium/Nitrogen have been used extensively for human euthanasia.

If you used an inert gas, and the response was the same as humans then you would want to do it quickly as it will not be noticeable or affect your breathing.

I'll use CO2 with the slow release method if that is what is recommended, I just thought of this as it's something I know a bit about from when I used to work with vacumn equipment and nitrogen purging.


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## eightball

barrow_matt said:


> but breathing CO2 would give you a suffocation response


and your not breathing in any co2 whatsoever no? that would mean im always feeling like im sufficating

in regards to the nitrogen, theres nearly 4 times more nitrogen than there is oxygen, something doesnt seem to add up

ANY sudden change of the usual oxygen level your breathing will make you panic, so putting nitrogen into a box forces the oxygen levels to drop vice versa putting oxygen into a box will reduce nitrogen levels both of which youll be aware off and with the oxygen level dropping rapidly you will panic

carbon monoxide is odourless am i right? well when thats induced in the air slowly you cant tell because you dont notice the sudden oxygen level change where as if you purposly induce CO in the air and its sudden you will notice and panic, the reason your notified about the nitrogen that it will kill if it increases and you wont know is because its likely you wont notice because the nitrogen levels will increase slowly and the oxygen levels will decrease and youll fall asleep and eventually die rather than panicing

either way, co2 does the job just dont be a tool and put it on full straight away


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## herp_derp

eightball said:


> either way, co2 does the job just dont be a tool and put it on full straight away


Will stick to that then 

The CO2 thing is a something we have developed as humans, not sure about other mammals. (Apparently) you will feel suffocation if the amount of CO2 in your lungs gets too high which will induce the uncontrollable panic but this is not the case for other gases. You will just get increased heart rate as the heart tries to get Oxygen to the brain but your breathing will feel normal then you pass out, go into a coma then die shortly after of brain damage.

Like I say, I haven't tried it and wouldn't recommend it :lol2: but that is supposedly how the human body reacts.


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## eightball

barrow_matt said:


> The CO2 thing is a something we have developed as humans, not sure about other mammals. (Apparently) you will feel suffocation if the amount of CO2 in your lungs gets too high which will induce the uncontrollable panic but this is not the case for other gases. You will just get increased heart rate as the heart tries to get Oxygen to the brain but your breathing will feel normal then you pass out, go into a coma then die shortly after of brain damage.


Yes were developed to live in the conditions of how it actually is, if one of them changes suddenly you will notice because the oxygen level will drop and youll panic, whatever gas it is, if it alters how much oxygen is in the air (decreases) you will panic, the reason CO2 is used as with any other gas is its odourless, not dangerous and easy to get (cheap), it does the same job as the other gases, aslong as you slowly lower the oxygen level which will make it fall asleep before panicing then you put it on full so theres no oxygen so it MUST die its impossible for it to live without oxygen and that way you wont see a panic

basically what your saying is, aslong as the gas isnt CO2 you replace oxygen with then you wont panic? so your saying you wont notice you cant breathe anymore when OXYGEN becomes suddenly unavailable? why would your body not be able to notice something it needs going rather than something it doesnt need coming? doesnt add up


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## Dave Balls

I have heard of people using nitrogen. Google it, you might find some actual info


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## herp_derp

eightball said:


> basically what your saying is, aslong as the gas isnt CO2 you replace oxygen with then you wont panic? so your saying you wont notice you cant breathe anymore when OXYGEN becomes suddenly unavailable? why would your body not be able to notice something it needs going rather than something it doesnt need coming? doesnt add up


Yes it is, the brain will not cause suffocation panic (the physical response to gasp for breath) at low oxygen but it will at high CO2, Go into a Nitrogen or Helium filled gas chamber and you may feel a rise in heart rate but you will be able to breathe normally and could pass out in as few as 3-4 deep breaths. I don't know exactly why but know that is the case for humans.


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## Minikenchy

I have seen a few videos where they use dry ice (c02) with water and then the ice gives of fumes? the videos ive seen puts the rats to sleep in less than a minute. But make sure not to breathe in the dry ice fumes or it could knock you out.

I myself dont own rats or snakes atm but ive watched many videos on it and it looks the most humane and cheapest thing to do apart from blend the rats.


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## antcherry88

barrow_matt said:


> Yes it is, the brain will not cause suffocation panic (the physical response to gasp for breath) at low oxygen but it will at high CO2, Go into a Nitrogen or Helium filled gas chamber and you may feel a rise in heart rate but you will be able to breathe normally and could pass out in as few as 3-4 deep breaths. I don't know exactly why but know that is the case for humans.


You're right. I work with both nitrogen and helium gas and you have to be very careful as you can suffocate and die without even noticing if either of these gases displaces oxygen.

It seems like it couldn't be true as you'd think that if you was running out of oxygen you'd notice! When actually you don't, which is why it's such a danger.


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## dunctonhams

eightball said:


> so your saying you wont notice you cant breathe anymore when OXYGEN becomes suddenly unavailable?


Basically the "control centre" in the brain can't measure oxygen directly. However, the same blood cells carry oxygen in from the air in the lungs and carbon dioxide out from the body cells to the lungs to be breathed out. The brain "measures" the level of carbon dioxide and "assumes" that if there's too much of it there will not be enough oxygen. This kicks in the automatic reactions to breathe more deeply and quickly. 

There would be a slow rise in carbon dioxide levels in the blood without oxygen available, (e.g. breathing pure nitrogen), but presumably not quick enough to cause panic and a feeling of suffocation.

Incidentally, this is why Carbon Monoxide poisoning is so deadly; the body doesn't notice that there is a problem because the brain only "looks at" carbon dioxide levels. Meanwhile the deadly gas is being absorbed by the red blood cells and blocking their ability to absorb oxygen.


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## Nightfirez

Argon 

enjoy


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## robhoski

eightball said:


> and your not breathing in any co2 whatsoever no? that would mean im always feeling like im sufficating
> 
> in regards to the nitrogen, theres nearly 4 times more nitrogen than there is oxygen, something doesnt seem to add up
> 
> ANY sudden change of the usual oxygen level your breathing will make you panic, so putting nitrogen into a box forces the oxygen levels to drop vice versa putting oxygen into a box will reduce nitrogen levels both of which youll be aware off and with the oxygen level dropping rapidly you will panic
> 
> carbon monoxide is odourless am i right? well when thats induced in the air slowly you cant tell because you dont notice the sudden oxygen level change where as if you purposly induce CO in the air and its sudden you will notice and panic, the reason your notified about the nitrogen that it will kill if it increases and you wont know is because its likely you wont notice because the nitrogen levels will increase slowly and the oxygen levels will decrease and youll fall asleep and eventually die rather than panicing
> 
> either way, co2 does the job just dont be a tool and put it on full straight away


So much wrong information in this post. The quantities of CO2 required to cause breathlessness are greater than what is in the air naturally. That's why you don't feel oxygen starved in a normal environment. CO2 in quantities large enough to kill you will make you feel like you're suffocating. This is because the himan body uses CO2 concentration levels as the trigger to cause you to breathe. So you when you elevate the CO2 levels your body begins to panic as it tries to get more air and you'll feel like you're suffocating - because you are. Nitrogen doesn't have this effect of panic and suffocation. Because breathing nitrogen does not raise the CO2 level in your body. Nitrogen will kill you in the same way by displacing the available oxygen - but you won't notice it. You'll get disoriented, pass out and eventually die. If you ever watch military pilots and astronauts being trained for oxygen deprivation at elevation it's nitrogen they put into the room where they sit with oxygen masks. They take off the masks and begin to become disoriented. If the trainers were not in the room with them and able to make sure the masks went back on when they became overly disoriented they would eventually pass out and die. But you'll also notice that during this training exercise they are not struggling to breathe. If they replaced the air in the training chamber with CO2 they would be gasping for air when they took their masks off.


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## robhoski

eightball said:


> Yes were developed to live in the conditions of how it actually is, if one of them changes suddenly you will notice because the oxygen level will drop and youll panic, whatever gas it is, if it alters how much oxygen is in the air (decreases) you will panic, the reason CO2 is used as with any other gas is its odourless, not dangerous and easy to get (cheap), it does the same job as the other gases, aslong as you slowly lower the oxygen level which will make it fall asleep before panicing then you put it on full so theres no oxygen so it MUST die its impossible for it to live without oxygen and that way you wont see a panic
> 
> basically what your saying is, aslong as the gas isnt CO2 you replace oxygen with then you wont panic? so your saying you wont notice you cant breathe anymore when OXYGEN becomes suddenly unavailable? why would your body not be able to notice something it needs going rather than something it doesnt need coming? doesnt add up


So much wrong information in this post. The quantities of CO2 required to cause breathlessness are greater than what is in the air naturally. That's why you don't feel oxygen starved in a normal environment. CO2 in quantities large enough to kill you will make you feel like you're suffocating. This is because the himan body uses CO2 concentration levels as the trigger to cause you to breathe. So you when you elevate the CO2 levels your body begins to panic as it tries to get more air and you'll feel like you're suffocating - because you are. Nitrogen doesn't have this effect of panic and suffocation. Because breathing nitrogen does not raise the CO2 level in your body. Nitrogen will kill you in the same way by displacing the available oxygen - but you won't notice it. You'll get disoriented, pass out and eventually die. If you ever watch military pilots and astronauts being trained for oxygen deprivation at elevation it's nitrogen they put into the room where they sit with oxygen masks. They take off the masks and begin to become disoriented. If the trainers were not in the room with them and able to make sure the masks went back on when they became overly disoriented they would eventually pass out and die. But you'll also notice that during this training exercise they are not struggling to breathe. If they replaced the air in the training chamber with CO2 they would be gasping for air when they took their masks off.


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## Malc

You do know you have replied to a thread that is ELEVEN years OLD, where a lot of those posting at the time haven't been active for 6 years or more so are probably not in need of your advice


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## Malum Argenteum

Here is the US AVMA Euthanasia Guidelines. Lots of actual empirical info on hypoxia euthanasia, none of which irrelevantly extrapolates from supposed pilot training (since we're not training pilots, and pilot trainers aren't euthanizing anything).

For those who are looking for merely academic knowledge and don't want to wade through it: N2 is not a recommended method; CO2 is a recommended method (though using dry ice is not considered a humane method). All euthanasia methods have precise protocols for application, so do read the details before any euthanasia procedure.


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## Malc

Malum Argenteum said:


> Here is the US AVMA Euthanasia Guidelines. Lots of actual empirical info on hypoxia euthanasia, none of which irrelevantly extrapolates from supposed pilot training (since we're not training pilots, and pilot trainers aren't euthanizing anything).
> 
> For those who are looking for merely academic knowledge and don't want to wade through it: N2 is not a recommended method; CO2 is a recommended method (though using dry ice is not considered a humane method). All euthanasia methods have precise protocols for application, so do read the details before any euthanasia procedure.


 And no doubt the guidance and regulations will differ from one country to another..


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## Malum Argenteum

A good thing to mention, yes. 

The UK guidelines don't have anything near the detail of procedure requirements, or any supporting evidence whatsoever (I didn't find anything beyond client communication suggestions from the BVA). A quick scan indicates that the methods recommended are consistent between the two countries. UK lists only CO2 "in a rising concentration" (so, no dip into precharged chamber) for anoxia -- not N2. 

See Schedule 1, p. 26



https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/619140/ConsolidatedASPA1Jan2013.pdf


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