# i find this wrong on so many levels



## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

WonderfulTattooed Sphynx Cats ~ Cool Pictures

i dont know if you've seen this before or not but i found it while scrolling through cute sphynx pics on google, and i'm actually quite shocked. Temporary tattoos i can understand, it would actually be quite a cute thing on a little sphynx but an actual reall tattoo!! it disgusts me. Although it's done while the cat in under anaesthetic i just find it wrong.

what are your thoughts?

it's not often that i'm disgusted by certain things but the human race manages so easily.


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## FreddiesMum (Jan 10, 2007)

I agree it is disgusting the owners who do that need a good hard slap brainless :censor:.


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## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

absolutly vile - suffering for no reason whatsoever, animal cruelty


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

Thats got to breach some animal cruelty law or something.

just awful, it doesnt even look nice


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Disgusting. Pets just shouldn't be used as fashion accessories.


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## Moogloo (Mar 15, 2010)

Wow... thats impressively cruel and stupid... allong with declawing, docking and messing with ears...

TBH not so bothered by the dodgy clothing because all that is, is impressive! Someone can use photoshop pretty well! The cats are just in such unnatural positions with unnatural coloured eyes.

Look at the third photo, the cat almost certainly looks like its actually laying on its side! like it was rolling around on the photo set and ended with its feet against the wall and they have rotated the photo and put clothes and tatts on it.

I think the majority of this stuff is all rubbish just to upset people but there always a few hardcore nutjobs out there...


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

see, i'm for docking, i hate the fack that it was banned and i don't think cropping should have been banned either, but tattooing is too much for me...


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## tom and tina (Oct 28, 2009)

Has one of the cats got nipple piercings too i cant quite make out.
Thats truely awful. Humans are vile sometimes. One thing though is that at least the cats are put under, but im thinking its more so the cat will stay still rather than the cats well being.


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

tom and tina said:


> Has one of the cats got nipple piercings too i cant quite make out.
> Thats truely awful. Humans are vile sometimes. One thing though is that at least the cats are put under, but im thinking its more so the cat will stay still rather than the cats well being.


i would imagine thats the reason they're knocked out, can you imagine trying to tattoo and animal with teeth and claws like a cat, bad enough giving them medication. it's more the after care i thought of, sphynx's need enough care without tattoo after care coming into it. totally wrong.


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## dyzasta (Oct 23, 2010)

Well im kinda shocked with my own reaction here... Im a tattooist and i find that disgusting


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

dyzasta said:


> Well im kinda shocked with my own reaction here... Im a tattooist and i find that disgusting


i have tattoos and it's totally turned my stomach. the difference being we can choose if we want them or not but the poor cat cant say 'oh i'd rather you didnt permanently ink my delicate skin so that i'm scabbed for a week or so and feel like i've been burned ever so slightly.'


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## tom and tina (Oct 28, 2009)

I can understand things like the pitbulls that get done to make sure they have a perminant mark, so the authorities know who the owners are. I even think with microchipping thats a little unessesary,but a chip can be changed i suppose. 
But all in all thats just outright cruel. The owners look like they are in it more for the status than the love of the animal.


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## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> see, i'm for docking, i hate the fack that it was banned and i don't think cropping should have been banned either, but tattooing is too much for me...


How can you be for docking???????????????????


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

I dock, I have working terriers, and my pups are docked, if I got a working spaniel it would be docked to, but this isnt about docking....

I think its horrid!


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## trogdorable (Feb 4, 2011)

im sick to death of seeing non working dogs with docked tails. 
is it meant to be some sort of fashion statement?

years back when i was in spain i saw a sign outside a tattoo/piercing parlour with a picture of a bull terrier with piercings all over its face. and i mean ALL over. 
some people just have no conteplation between right and wrong.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Disgusting. I do think a lot of the "s&m" pictures were created, though. But yeah. Tattooing your pet like that is so needless. Why put them under the threat of dying under anaesthetic for your own selfish reasons?!?


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## sn8ks4life (Jul 27, 2011)

thats just completely :censor: SICK!!! why do people find it necessary to torture animals in such a way, bring there owners to me and ill show them how much pain that animal would be in:devil: so when's the law gonna do something bout this you lot reckon?


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> see, i'm for docking, i hate the fack that it was banned and i don't think cropping should have been banned either, but tattooing is too much for me...


 :gasp: o.0 ......


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> see, i'm for docking, i hate the fack that it was banned and i don't think cropping should have been banned either, but tattooing is too much for me...


Ok Docking is acceptable when it needs to be done to prevent injury when working that makes sense. Docking for looks doesn't make sense. 

Ear cropping is 20x crueler than tattooing imo. Not that I'm for tattooing at all... Other than ear tattoo's for identification purposes which aren't done in the same way the tattoo in the link is done.


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## Daisyy (Jan 15, 2010)

I love tattoo's and I'm aiming to be a tattoo artist, but people have the choice to go through the pain and cleaning afterwards, these cats have no choice, this is just cruel. Why would you want to put your pet through pain just for its appearance?

My horse has a tattoo on his inside lip for identification (ex racer) which I really don't agree with, its what microchips are for!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

My GSD has an ear tattoo for ID purposes, its disgusting that people would actually tattoo a pet for their own pleasure, sick on all levels:devil:


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## theyoungaquarist (Jun 28, 2011)

at least the didnt give her a real tattoo


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## theyoungaquarist (Jun 28, 2011)

P.s I think its vile.

Kind of off topic but, I hate stuck up celebs who use animals as accessories. If they want a dog or a big snake then they should care for them! They shouldn't take them to movie premiers, shopping or to parties. It stresses out the poor animal(s)! We all know that they can buy 20 more! :censor: :devil:


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## Hammyhogbun (May 19, 2011)

Thats just awfull. some people need a slap


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> see, i'm for docking, i hate the fack that it was banned and i don't think cropping should have been banned either, but tattooing is too much for me...


Care to expand on that?


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## theyoungaquarist (Jun 28, 2011)

Just seen the pics below, what on Earth are people doing to these poor animals?!?! The way they make them wear leather reminds me of dodgeball the film when they get the team kits mixed up


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## Jamiioo (May 8, 2010)

WTF? Seriously, what are these people on? Tattooing pets and dressing them up in S&M Gear? Must be something that addles their brains anyway :gasp:


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## giant snail (Oct 25, 2009)

are you sure most of these arnt photoshoped or something as most look pretty fake!


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

skimsa said:


> How can you be for docking???????????????????


because i believe all docked breeds like boxers/rottweilers/dobermanns etc etc should still be docked.




giant snail said:


> are you sure most of these arnt photoshoped or something as most look pretty fake!


the pvc clothing ones look photoshopped and i hope to hell the piercings are fake or photoshopped.

i didn't make this thread to discuss docking, it was to bring the tattooing to people attention


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

giant snail said:


> are you sure most of these arnt photoshoped or something as most look pretty fake!



This. They dont look real to me, and what tattooist in their right mind would tattoo an animal?


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> because i believe all docked breeds like boxers/rottweilers/dobermanns etc etc should still be docked.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
How can you justify docking them though?And it's relevant because it's hypocritical of you to say that tattooing is disgusting but ear cropping and docking is fine.

Docking in non-working animals, ear cropping and tattooing for non-identification purposes all cause the animals some pain for appearance reasons. How can you approve of one but not another?The principles are the same.


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

TheDogMan said:


> How can you justify docking them though?And it's relevant because it's hypocritical of you to say that tattooing is disgusting but ear cropping and docking is fine.
> 
> Docking in non-working animals, ear cropping and tattooing for non-identification purposes all cause the animals some pain for appearance reasons. How can you approve of one but not another?The principles are the same.


because it's completely different?? puppies are docked early in life and from what i witnessed they seemed more upset about being taken from a milk teat, and once put back on it they didnt seem too phased at all, it takes a couple minutes and at 3 days old I doubt they feel pain, more discomfort which only lasts briefly. Ear cropping is a different argument because it's an actual operation that requires special after care so i can understand this being along the same lines, but i feel the same about dew claw removal, it's alot worse than being docked, in my opinion, and yet having dew claws removed is still acceptable.

but tattooing a picture onto an animal is revolting.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Anybody?


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> because it's completely different?? puppies are docked early in life and from what i witnessed they seemed more upset about being taken from a milk teat, and once put back on it they didnt seem too phased at all, it takes a couple minutes and at 3 days old I doubt they feel pain, more discomfort which only lasts briefly. Ear cropping is a different argument because it's an actual operation that requires special after care so i can understand this being along the same lines, but i feel the same about dew claw removal, it's alot worse than being docked, in my opinion, and yet having dew claws removed is still acceptable.
> 
> but tattooing a picture onto an animal is revolting.


Dew claw removal is only usually done if the animal is expected or has been in situations where it's frequently damaging them as they get caught in things etc. 

Ear cropping is disgusting, the pain is continual and completely unneccesary how you can be 'for' that is beyond me. 

Tail docking is a little easier to argue but it's still unneccesary and things can go wrong with it. Whether they feel pain or not is hard to tell and I wouldn't like to say as I haven't had experience relating to it.


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> but tattooing a picture onto an animal is revolting.


 Because you don't like the look of it or it's cruel?It's no crueler than ear cropping.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> because i believe all docked breeds like boxers/rottweilers/dobermanns etc etc should still be docked.


Why? Just because it's "tradition"? 

For working dogs I can *almost* understand it, but for looks? Selfish. Most dobies/rotties/boxers are used for pets, not purpose, so why on earth they should continue being being docked is beyond me. 

Removing part of animals body just to make it look better just doesn't sit right with me.


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## Cornsnakeinthemirror (Jun 12, 2011)

It's funny to think that a lot of people think owners of reptiles are irresponsible and it's not fair on the animal to keep them. Yet this sort of thing slips under the radar! :whistling2:


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## sn8ks4life (Jul 27, 2011)

i just think its all sick in general, theres no need to ear crop tattoo or dock a dog, thats the way i feel and im pretty sure most others do to, how would people like it if we had to cut part of our body of just cos someone wanted to do it? working dogs, meh maybe but i still wouldnt personally..... i think its all wrong..


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

SexyBear77 said:


> Why? Just because it's "tradition"?
> 
> For working dogs I can *almost* understand it, but for looks? Selfish. Most dobies/rotties/boxers are used for pets, not purpose, so why on earth they should continue being being docked is beyond me.
> 
> Removing part of animals body just to make it look better just doesn't sit right with me.


everyone has an opinion on here, why am i being slated simply because mine is different? my thread is not a debate on docking. I'm having none of this.


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## spottymint (Oct 3, 2010)

WTF ? :gasp:

Just seen this, micro chipping/tatooing ect for identity is one thing, but just as a fasion accessory ?

Not that tatooing works, Irish greyhounds are tatooed in their ears for identity, they turn up dumped (often dead) with No ears.

It's like dogs have legs to walk with, not to sit in some blonde bimbo's handbag.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> everyone has an opinion on here, why am i being slated simply because mine is different? my thread is not a debate on docking. I'm having none of this.


I don't see any slating, and I'm sorry you feel that way. 

However, I will admit that I am fairly confused about the fact you agree with body modification for appearance, but not this "tattooing", which, let's face it, is a form of body modification carried out for it's appearance....


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

SexyBear77 said:


> I don't see any slating, and I'm sorry you feel that way.
> 
> However, I will admit that I am fairly confused about the fact you agree with body modification for appearance, but not this "tattooing", which, let's face it, is a form of body modification carried out for it's appearance....


maybe because to me it's two very different things... docked breeds were once docked for a purpose, today's society prevents them being used for most of those purposes so has banned docking. but to have an animal tattooed like that... you can't tell me it's the same kind of thing... when dogs are docked they are only a few days old and from what i've experienced, not put through any kind of lasting pain and when done properly have never had any problems, but to have an animal tattooed like that, knowing what kind of aftercare is required, it's barbaric


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

If only the same fuss was caused over tattooed fish...


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## RhianB87 (Oct 25, 2009)

Some of them seem a bit fake. I have been having a nosey on the net about it and someone did bring up a good point. The cat with the egyptian tattoo on its chest was said to of just woken up from getting it done, but there is no bleeding or reddening around the tattoo which there should be.
I am not saything that it doesnt happen but I have only found out about that example.

But pigs get tattooed in China so I am sure some sick people out there tattoo other animals!


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

hippyhaplos said:


> If only the same fuss was caused over tattooed fish...


they tattoo fish?


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## RhianB87 (Oct 25, 2009)

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> they tattoo fish?


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

:gasp:


Evilshiddenclaws said:


> they tattoo fish?


Yup, and the worst of it is.... you can legally buy them over here. 

Only a fraction make it through the process alive.

Except with fish, the process involves needles, caustic sodas and lasers.


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

christs sake, thats ridiculous


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

Someone I know bought a tiny tortoise in a market abroad with a brightly painted shell.Bought it home in his luggage.Shell was permanently damaged.All the edges curled upwards and inwards, the tortoise had nothing to retract into.It lived about 5 years before perishing.


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> maybe because to me it's two very different things... docked breeds were once docked for a purpose, today's society prevents them being used for most of those purposes so has banned docking. but to have an animal tattooed like that... you can't tell me it's the same kind of thing... when dogs are docked they are only a few days old and from what i've experienced, not put through any kind of lasting pain and when done properly have never had any problems, but to have an animal tattooed like that, knowing what kind of aftercare is required, it's barbaric


Their not different at all, I'm not going to bother continueing this but your argument is clearly invalid which is why their is so much support against your arguments. I honestly wouldn't slate you if your argument made sense and it had some logic to it, but it doesn't.


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

TheDogMan said:


> Their not different at all, I'm not going to bother continueing this but your argument is clearly invalid which is why their is so much support against your arguments. I honestly wouldn't slate you if your argument made sense and it had some logic to it, but it doesn't.


that sounds like you admitting to slating me for having different views to you, well done.


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> that sounds like you admitting to slating me for having different views to you, well done.


Merr you're just being pathetic now, I used one poorly selected word get over it.


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## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

Evilshiddenclaws - NO SLATING, ok now we've got that out the way, the ones of us sitting behind our laptops with our jaws on the floor would like to understand your thought process.

Again NO SLATING so please dont go into ignorant Ostrich mode.

Tattooing - Not necessary
Docking - Not necessary

Tattooing - Not natural
Docking - Not natural

Tattooing - Only done with the owners wishes taken into account
Docking - Only done with the owners wishes taken into account

Tattooing - Asthetic reasons only
Docking - Asthetic reasons only

Tattooing - Medical risk
DOcking - Medical risk

Tattooing - Complications can occur
Docking - Complications can occur

Tattooing - illegally done by owners
Dockin - illegally done by owners

Can you please explain their difference???


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

I think the thing that raised eyebrows too Evil, was that you mentioned cropping as well as docking...now for working purposes I can understand why some feel docking is a necessity, but what purpose does ear cropping serve? Genuine question, as I'd love to know what it is that I'm missing?

I never understand why they crop Great Danes ears in America :? They look so much better with the ears they were born with :?


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

Esarosa said:


> I think the thing that raised eyebrows too Evil, was that you mentioned cropping as well as docking...now for working purposes I can understand why some feel docking is a necessity, but what purpose does ear cropping serve? Genuine question, as I'd love to know what it is that I'm missing?
> 
> I never understand why they crop Great Danes ears in America :? They look so much better with the ears they were born with :?


It has no function other than some people prefer the look of a dog with cropped ears.... god knows why!


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

TheDogMan said:


> It has no function other than some people prefer the look of a dog with cropped ears.... god knows why!



See, this is what I thought. Which is why I didn't understand why evil was all for that and not tattooing..I don't agree with either, (well tats for identification are fine) but I just didn't understand where she was making the distinction. Both are modifying an animals natural form for purely aesthetic reasons. I don't understand her logic :? This isn't an attack, just me being curious.


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

Esarosa said:


> See, this is what I thought. Which is why I didn't understand why evil was all for that and not tattooing..I don't agree with either, (well tats for identification are fine) but I just didn't understand where she was making the distinction. Both are modifying an animals natural form for purely aesthetic reasons. I don't understand her logic :? This isn't an attack, just me being curious.


This is why their is a lot of opposition to her views because they aren't logical.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

I saw this a couple of years back and im still disgusted, Tattooing for identification purpose its fine and understandable for vanity its pure and simple cruelty.

Onto the other "debates"

Docking im on the fence, For working dogs, Not breeds actual dogs that are going to be worked im fine with. For pets i see not real reason as to why they need docking? I love to see Rottie's with full tails the same for Dobermanns ( as im a active and current member and volunteer of the Dobermann Trust i have seen a wide variety of Dobermanns in all shapes and sizes and i must say i prefer tails =D )


Cropping ears is absoutly disgusting and in my eyes for pure vanity, Id rather see a dog with flat natural ears and until someone has some hard fact based evidence as to why it benefits the breed my opinion will stay the same.


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## theyoungaquarist (Jun 28, 2011)

I am against cropping but the ONLY dog it looks OKAY on is the classic, docked tailed, pointed up ears, doberman and even then I think its not needed


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## theyoungaquarist (Jun 28, 2011)

skimsa said:


> Evilshiddenclaws - NO SLATING, ok now we've got that out the way, the ones of us sitting behind our laptops with our jaws on the floor would like to understand your thought process.
> 
> Again NO SLATING so please dont go into ignorant Ostrich mode.
> 
> ...


The names, procedures and age its done at. Apart from that they are morally the similar but I wouldn't say I 100% support docking.


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## JJReptiles (Jan 20, 2009)

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> maybe because to me it's two very different things... docked breeds were once docked for a purpose, today's society prevents them being used for most of those purposes so has banned docking. but to have an animal tattooed like that... you can't tell me it's the same kind of thing... when dogs are docked they are only a few days old and from what i've experienced, not put through any kind of lasting pain and when done properly have never had any problems, but to have an animal tattooed like that, knowing what kind of aftercare is required, it's barbaric



Just out of curiosity* how do people "properly" dock a pups tail at 3days old???

Just a genuin question not aggro intended


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## Moogloo (Mar 15, 2010)

Wow... I managed to completely (and very much accidentally!) derail th OPs thread about tattoos on cats by mentioning docking and cropping...

Sorry OP!!

Still think the photoshop work is pretty funky! Sick, poor cats look awful... but its blatently not for real (the whole s&m clothing)


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## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

theyoungaquarist said:


> The names, procedures and age its done at. Apart from that they are morally the similar but I wouldn't say I 100% support docking.


OK so if someone was to tattoo one of these cats at 3 days old that would be perfectly acceptable?

Many home dockings are done with rubber bands so if these tattooists used knitting needles and pen ink would that be better?

I can just about get my head around working dogs. Personally I cant see how having a tail would cause that much of a problem seeing as dogs and wolves have had tails for thousands of years but if it avoids pain to the dog fair enough.

Anyother reason is purely for asthetics no other reason. Its in this that it is no different at all to tattooing or piercing.

If any pro dockers would like to explain how it is different i genuinly would like to know.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

I would firmly put the tattooing in ranks of cruelty right between the Docking and the Cropping
Docking=who knows what pain, some say none. 
Tattooing=days of pain maybe over a week
Cropping=weeks of pain maybe upto a month in bandages to heal "correctly"

So yeah, I join the Jaws on the floor group referred to above.


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## Recluso (Dec 3, 2010)

On the tattooing side: I can see this being the new bone for animal associations to chew on. Permanent disfigurement of an animal for *PURELY AESTHETIC* reasons should not be condoned nor legally accepted. People who undertake such measures should be heartily punished for it.

On the ID tattooing side: Given how many animals are stolen/lost each year, I can appreciate the practicality of it to a degree. I'm personally not a huge fan of it, but seriously considered it myself for my Gordon Setter some years back when there was a spat of gundog thefts in my area.

On the docking side: I fully support this for reasons of *WORKING OR HEALTH ONLY*. I have a working Springer, he is docked. I have seen Gordons who, whilst traditionally kept with full tails suffer horrendous tail splits as a result of working the field. If an animal is bought with the intention to work, be that to the gun, herding, guarding, whatever, and there is sufficient cause to believe that the tail could be at risk - then yes, it should be docked to prevent likely future injury.

I have also seen the occasional case where an animal has been docked due to behavioural problems. For example, a dog which quite literally chewed its tail to such extent that docking was all that could be done to 'save' what was left.


That is all.

*throws popcorn*


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

Recluso said:


> I have also seen the occasional case where an animal has been docked due to behavioural problems. For example, a dog which quite literally chewed its tail to such extent that docking was all that could be done to 'save' what was left.


That's more of a medical issue, the behaviour that caused it should of been dealt with long before it was allowed to become that serious.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

JJReptiles said:


> Just out of curiosity* how do people "properly" dock a pups tail at 3days old???
> 
> Just a genuin question not aggro intended


 
you take it to a vet ( you know one of those properly trained peoples with anesthetics and painkillers incase of complications )
and then you have pages and pages of forms to fill in to prove pup is a working dog and going to a working home.

not fred down the road with a meat cleaver....

can understand workers being docked, have seen the damage getting kocked repeatedly mid-tail does to a springer.


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## Recluso (Dec 3, 2010)

TheDogMan said:


> That's more of a medical issue, the behaviour that caused it should of been dealt with long before it was allowed to become that serious.


Unfortunately in this instance it was a rescue dog so I believe the history was uncertain. They had tried to deter the behaviour but sadly kennels don't always make for the best place emotionally.


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

Recluso said:


> Unfortunately in this instance it was a rescue dog so I believe the history was uncertain. They had tried to deter the behaviour but sadly kennels don't always make for the best place emotionally.


Yeah it wasn't in the right environment. Ideally the behaviour would have been stopped before it got to that point, unfortunate...


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Recluso said:


> On the docking side: I fully support this for reasons of *WORKING OR HEALTH ONLY*. I have a working Springer, he is docked. I have seen Gordons who, whilst traditionally kept with full tails suffer horrendous tail splits as a result of working the field. If an animal is bought with the intention to work, be that to the gun, herding, guarding, whatever, and there is sufficient cause to believe that the tail could be at risk - then yes, it should be docked to prevent likely future injury.


This is what I have always said against docking, people say they dock spaniels and HPR's for working, but then why not retrievers and setters? Many working lines retrievers (both labs and Goldies) and setters are not much taller than a spaniel, say what 5-10cm? That is unlikely to make one in a bush and he other to be considered above it, especially as the HPR's were then taller than all of them, and WERE docked. Many retrievers and setters can also flush, so really were doing the same job, with the same anatomy and yet ones tail was amputated and the other left? It seems to me that it was done for looks and habit and the reason (as good as it could be considered to be) was made up afterwards.

In actual fact of course stats from countries that banned docking long before the UK and banned even working dogs being docked show tail injuries to be extremely rare, and the cases they saw an overwhelming % (of like 50 to one) all occured in traditionally undocked breeds.


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

Kare said:


> This is what I have always said against docking, people say they dock spaniels and HPR's for working, but then why not retrievers and setters? Many working lines retrievers (both labs and Goldies) and setters are not much taller than a spaniel, say what 5-10cm? That is unlikely to make one in a bush and he other to be considered above it, especially as the HPR's were then taller than all of them, and WERE docked. Many retrievers and setters can also flush, so really were doing the same job, with the same anatomy and yet ones tail was amputated and the other left? It seems to me that it was done for looks and habit and the reason (as good as it could be considered to be) was made up afterwards.
> 
> In actual fact of course stats from countries that banned docking long before the UK and banned even working dogs being docked show tail injuries to be extremely rare, and the cases they saw an overwhelming % (of like 50 to one) all occured in traditionally undocked breeds.


Most retrievers do just that they're not bred to flush. Flushing game out is where the damage is really done so retrievers don't tend to need docking. I haven't seen those stats do you have any links they sound interesting?


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## theyoungaquarist (Jun 28, 2011)

skimsa said:


> OK so if someone was to tattoo one of these cats at 3 days old that would be perfectly acceptable?
> 
> Many home dockings are done with rubber bands so if these tattooists used knitting needles and pen ink would that be better?
> 
> ...


Docking with rubber bands is cruel that I AM against!

Certain dogs can be docked for their traditional looks but where on earth do you find a tattooed dog to be 'traditional'?


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## spider shane (Apr 16, 2010)

Moogloo said:


> Wow... thats impressively cruel and stupid... allong with declawing, docking and messing with ears...QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

theyoungaquarist said:


> Docking with rubber bands is cruel that I AM against!
> 
> Certain dogs can be docked for their traditional looks but where on earth do you find a tattooed dog to be 'traditional'?


Why is docking traditional? Because humans have been doing it for years, out of their choice.

Bull fighting is traditional in spain. Sticking a ring through a bears nose and making dance is traditional in Slavic countries


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

spider shane said:


> Moogloo said:
> 
> 
> > Wow... thats impressively cruel and stupid... allong with declawing, docking and messing with ears...QUOTE]
> ...


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## spider shane (Apr 16, 2010)

Ophexis said:


> spider shane said:
> 
> 
> > They mean *declawing* - a process of surgically removing the claws of a cat so they can't use them.
> ...


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

spider shane said:


> my bad didnt see the spelling sorry to the person i called a muppet..... can i add dogs need there tails to turn so docking a workers tail would not really help.


No worries mate, I knew where you were coming from :2thumb: 
We've got a border collie near us who still has his dewclaws - they cause him no trouble at all  
But tattooing cats... no...just, no.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

spider shane said:


> Ophexis said:
> 
> 
> > my bad didnt see the spelling sorry to the person i called a muppet..... can i add dogs need there tails to turn so docking a workers tail would not really help.
> ...


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## JPP (Jun 8, 2009)

pathetic really 

my pup has had his dew claws removed as hes from working stock but that is to prevent him snapping them back now and then, i see it as stopping them from getting hurt but clipping is a load of shite, that was used for working yes... when they where in the pits...


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## theyoungaquarist (Jun 28, 2011)

skimsa said:


> Why is docking traditional? Because humans have been doing it for years, out of their choice.
> 
> Bull fighting is traditional in spain. Sticking a ring through a bears nose and making dance is traditional in Slavic countries


It's the first image you see in your head of when you think of a dog. Eg rottweiler's having short tails. 

What certain people believe is traditional and acceptable is their opinion. Watching a bear in a cage or cutting a turtle up whilst it's alive for food is what I think is wrong but others find it acceptable. It's a matter of opinion (within reason)


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

spider shane said:


> can i add dogs need there tails to turn so docking a workers tail would not really help.


They don't NEED, the tail aids in turning but it doesn't mean every dog that has it's tail cut off will only be able to walk and run in straight lines :lol2: Like previously said the tail isn't fully cut off and it's done so that the tails don't get constantly injured and infected etc.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

I have found this quote arising from the same report on my computer, but can not find the original study both it and I refered to at present. I will continue to look but maybe this bit can help you also see if you come across it at least the date and country are present which was better than my original post.



> A 1996 study of veterinary records from 10 clinics in Denmark found that out of 70,000 dogs treated in a year
> there were 26 incidents of tail injuries (i.e. a rate of 4 tail injuries per 10,000 treated dogs). The report
> commented that tail injury is a ‘relatively rare injury’.
> 
> ...


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## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

theyoungaquarist said:


> It's the first image you see in your head of when you think of a dog. Eg rottweiler's having short tails.
> 
> What certain people believe is traditional and acceptable is their opinion. Watching a bear in a cage or cutting a turtle up whilst it's alive for food is what I think is wrong but others find it acceptable. It's a matter of opinion (within reason)


So peoples opinions overall what is best for an animal?

I may believe owl look better without wings - can I cut them off?
I think cats look cute with tattoos - can I tattoo them on?

The olden day photos of black people is in grass skirts, does that mean that is what their future needs to be? 
The olden days had chickens in battery farms, do they need to be kept like this now because its the first image that pops into your head?


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## theyoungaquarist (Jun 28, 2011)

skimsa said:


> So peoples opinions overall what is best for an animal?
> 
> I may believe owl look better without wings - can I cut them off?
> I think cats look cute with tattoos - can I tattoo them on?
> ...


If you honestly feel like its best then you are entitled to your own opinion, If I think that it is sick and out of my moral but you don't why should I stop you? It's a free world my friend.

However, if a dog is docked will it affect it in life (in a bad way)? Not really.
If you cut off an owls wings will it affect it? Of course.
If you tattoo a cat will it affect it? A week of pain may occur, an allergic reaction is at risk and scabbing can affect the looks of the tattoo if not done correctly. 

Many african tribes still wear grass skirts and both men and women are topless. 

The chickens are kept in battery farms due to the high demand of eggs and chicken meat. That is why some people decide to eat free range. If people cared they'd support free range and put battery farms out of business. If you have ever eaten from KFC, Burger King, McDonald's or any other franchise or takeaway then you supported a battery farm.


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## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

If you honestly feel like its best then you are entitled to your own opinion, If I think that it is sick and out of my moral but you don't why should I stop you? It's a free world my friend.
So never in history and never again in the future should people try to change the world and enlighten people? We should never persue what is morally right because of a given opinion in a moment in time?
However, if a dog is docked will it affect it in life (in a bad way)? Not really. Yes, the tail evolved for a reason
If you cut off an owls wings will it affect it? Of course.
If you tattoo a cat will it affect it? A week of pain may occur, an allergic reaction is at risk and scabbing can affect the looks of the tattoo if not done correctly. Could a docked tail not cause pain? Could an allergic reaction to the medication during the operation not occur? Could a tail not heal properly - ive seen the nerve damage that can be done.
Many african tribes still wear grass skirts and both men and women are topless. I take it youve been to Africa to see this? People only wear this during ceremonies, Johanasburg is more advanced than London.
The chickens are kept in battery farms due to the high demand of eggs and chicken meat. That is why some people decide to eat free range. If people cared they'd support free range and put battery farms out of business. If you have ever eaten from KFC, Burger King, McDonald's or any other franchise or takeaway then you supported a battery farm. My paralell was to the your concept of traditional perceptions, clearly we are failing dogs as wel as chickens if people still believe docking to be ok in this day and age also.


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

Kare said:


> I have found this quote arising from the same report on my computer, but can not find the original study both it and I refered to at present. I will continue to look but maybe this bit can help you also see if you come across it at least the date and country are present which was better than my original post.


Interesting quote, if you can find that study then PLEASE get back to me. It looks good but I'd like to know a lot more before drawing a conclusion.


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## Recluso (Dec 3, 2010)

Kare said:


> This is what I have always said against docking, people say they dock spaniels and HPR's for working, but then why not retrievers and setters? Many working lines retrievers (both labs and Goldies) and setters are not much taller than a spaniel, say what 5-10cm? That is unlikely to make one in a bush and he other to be considered above it, especially as the HPR's were then taller than all of them, and WERE docked. Many retrievers and setters can also flush, so really were doing the same job, with the same anatomy and yet ones tail was amputated and the other left? It seems to me that it was done for looks and habit and the reason (as good as it could be considered to be) was made up afterwards.
> 
> In actual fact of course stats from countries that banned docking long before the UK and banned even working dogs being docked show tail injuries to be extremely rare, and the cases they saw an overwhelming % (of like 50 to one) all occured in traditionally undocked breeds.


Slow response is slow from me 

Taking gundogs as an example in the docking argument (only 'cos I know more about them )

I will disagree about the size comparison between Setters and Spaniel. I have a tall working line Springer dog and an 'about average' sized Gordon bitch. Shoulder to shoulder, there's about a good 6 inches at LEAST in height and if you think about it, working Spaniels are usually pretty small.

You would think that the particular use of a gundog (whether flushing, pointing or retrieving) would directly correspond to whether or not it is practical to dock them. But it doesn't appear to. It gets even more confusing when you see that many Gundogs can and will be used for more than one purpose (i.e. a Spaniel that can flush AND retrieve).

Setters are your birdy scent dogs, used to chase down your pheasants, grouse, quail, birds you typically find sitting idiotically in the middle of a field. I suspect they're traditionally undocked so that their tails can 'flag' but also because they're traditionally a 'pointing' Gundog (their name comes from their 'set' they take up on detecting game). 

I've seen Gordons literally screech to a standstill to avoid scrambling into a bush and will patrol the edges whilst my Springer takes a running leap and comes out with half the undergrowth attached to him, a factor which may have something to do with why Spaniels are docked.

*facepalm*

However when you look at the discrepency between docked and undocked gundogs, you do start to boggle a bit. Take your pointers, you'll see Setters and Pointers (traditionally undocked) and then you'll see Vizlas and Weimeraners (traditionally docked) which further begs the question, does it depend on the dog's country of origin and historical uses that plays as much a factor in the alteration of its appearence as its use does? 

I would also say that yes, it's not like tail injuries are common as muck. But when they do occur they NEVER heal properly with it taking months and months to try and get it to heal given the thinness of the skin, constant movement, being bashed into things... you get the picture.

So! Whose brain is hurting yet?

OT: Freaky naked cat tattoos are still messed up.


E: I should clarify that my Springer has a 'working' dock. He had the end 2-3 knuckles removed when he was about 3 days old by a vet. He still has enough tail to express himself, has a full flag but doesn't have those treacherous last few inches that is where the damage in tail splits occurs. However, I would agree that the 'full docks' you see frequently in Cockers, Boxers, Rotties etc is unecessary given that dogs use tail 'behaviour' to communicate with one another.


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