# Da DART ROOM(n SHED LOADSA pics)



## soundstounite

So we've been picking a few(understatement) people's brains now for a while we wanna keep darts. We are going the seriously slow route,read read read evaluate do stuff read....We are fortunate to live in a little cottage and have a little bit of space,one room that is north facing...keeps stable temps,(stuffed a max/min thermometer in there for about 8 months ). The room will be totally dedicated to da froshe,it measures 2.35m x 2.85m. So where do we start,i decorated the ceiling,ripped out the old carpet..... and stated to get a bit of the floor up for the sparky to put in some more sockets. MAJOR set back floor rotten as a pear due to woodworm


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## sambridge15

jungle tree frog light switches by candy queen designs | notonthehighstreet.com 

must have that :lol2:


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## soundstounite

So due to the massive weight of some ??? eh tanks and of course HEAVY darts we chucked it all out the window(as with everything we do it was not wasted its keeping us warm now on our fire).While the floor was out we laid all the cables so mr sparky could not charge us too much to connect it all up and put in the pattresses as well.Got disturbed by Shaz as one of me mates had dropped in for a chinwag


















Fortunately he pointed out that i still had some chipboard flooring in me loft :2thumb: and also a guy on here would be able to help with the woodworm problem( cheers mate ya know who ya are THANKYOU) Thats the thing about dragonflies they talk so much sense.


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## soundstounite

So once we had spent our dollar on stopping the little sods from eating our house(woodworm that is) and in a way that would leave No horrible stuff around to poison our lovely darts (when we are ready for 'em),we set about reinforcing the floor,so as ya see from the pic below the first set of noggins are in all, screwed, maybe overkill:2thumb: ,but i would hate to find a rackfull of darts had fallen through the floor and these vivs are soddin heavy ain't they


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## soundstounite

Slowly i put in the new floor,stuffing some insulation in just for good measure,gotta try to keep the bills down and i also quite like our planet and hate wasting energy:lol2: each board was given a supporting set of noggings (me old knees were buggered doing this) but i have nearly forgotton about it now.....NEARLY...ha ha.










floor half way, and sorted erm ish


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## soundstounite

To the left in the above pic is my second major cock up ( the first was putting me foot through the floor while trying to carry toooo many noggings at once with wet feet) i fitted the skirts before laying the laminate floor and didn't leave quite enough space for the floor to expand so had to also fit a n expansion bead to cover the gaps(sod it).Before we sorted the laminate we got the walls painted and stained up the said skirt.(the fan is there not to keep me cool,but to try and get all noxious fumes out of the room as quick as poss.)


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## soundstounite

Following the eco warrior ethic: one major problem with our house is we still have those crap old metal windows which are single glazed. Ofcourse it would cost a ruddy fortune to keep this room warm enough for darts in the winter so we set about adding a secondary double glazing unit to help keep the heat in(ha we now have a triple glazed window)....everything in this window is recylcled its ALL rubbish so it cost us a total of 8 screws and a bit of stain....and a hell of alot of swearing as the glazed lights were to blummin big for the reveal...well nearly (2.5 cm to play with and make em slide)


















Just for good measure we tilled the reveal and sealed with silicone so any condensation probs were easily delt with


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## soundstounite

It would be relatively easy for me to build all our racking for the frogs out of wood ...i love fighting with the stuff and have done so more or less since i kept my first phibs yonks ago when the only food ya could buy were mealworms,But the stuff moves,and with us trying to make all our vivs out of recylcled glass it seemed to make sense to go with aliminium. Bloody expensive but light as hell compared with wood and also doesn't take up the space that wood of the same strengh would:2thumb:,this is real important as this room is for me darling who loves the darts as much as i do....and is 'erm vertically challenged...for those not so politically correct a ruddy short ass:lol2::lol2:. I love the clinical look of the ENT racks but there is no way that we could afford them so as always we will go the longer but hugely cheeper route MAKE it. The ali arrives


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## soundstounite

and all the connectors










Hey Jon is there enough there do ya think...??? Our main goal i am chasing is to get the racks up asap,we only have 3 vivs built but i have been seriously at it on the plant front and want them in before it gets too cold,all of them are outside at present,we wanted them here so we could be sure they were all safe from all the nasties that modern growers use both fertilizers and systemic pesticides. So they have been grown in a peat/orchidbark/ecoearth mix,here.But if it gets cold soon i will loose this which would be a right :censor::censor::censor:,so here are just a few of 'em to show ya why i'm bricking it


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## soundstounite

So man back to ali racks...ha ha. And also pretty much where i have got to now. As a kid i had 3 major hates with plib vivs ...one...lokking at the substrate as a cross section...(hopefully ENT style false floor vivs will take this out) Two condensation...(to be remedied by viv design and heating the room ) and three trying to squint past lighting that is not coming out of the viv hopefully the racking will sort this but not sure yet.
Rack construction.....fortunately we own a chop saw...if you are cutting ali put a peace of wood by the fence(part of the saw) as illustrated so you cut down on the ali,otherwise the blade could snag...you totally don't want to go there bits of ali flying around NOT GOOD.








clamp the ali down








This is seriously tedious,but one is not good at looking after phibs with bits of aliminium embedded in one's skull.(safety lesson over)


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## soundstounite

Here's the ali tube as it was packed...its anodised by the way ...pppurdy 'eh








Ok so our first rack is for 6 vivs ...4 60cm cubes and 2 40cm high by 60x60(shaz's height causing me to rethink...will probably have to build her a step up ...bugger). Guys you have no idea HOW MANY peaces of ali it takes to make one of these racks We'll start with the legs,the feet are adjustable by the way so it can be set level when in position, we unscrewed the foot to hammer them home...
























And that my friends is enough for tonight....shagged...Stu


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## Annihilation

Looking good!


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## bothrops

I've posted on this so I'm subscribed and will automatically get notification when you up date....


...I'm really excited to see how this turns out....I'm also very jealous of you having a spare room and the skills to do this...

Are you building the vivs from scratch as well as the shelving for them? If so, to what design? If not, what are you using?


Awesome!

Cheers

Andy


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## Ron Magpie

Epic:2thumb:


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## Jezza84

Looking good stu:2thumb:


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## onemanandhisfrog

woohoo, good work so far!


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## hugsta

looks great hope it all goes well!:2thumb:


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## richie.b

Im liking it Stu, keep up the good work and obviously the photos :notworthy:


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## ilovetoads2

You werent kidding when you said you had been busy! Cant wait to see if finished....:2thumb:


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## s6t6nic6l

keep up the good work, wish you all the best with this venture. well impressed and will look forward to your progress.


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## chondro13

Looking AWESOME stu! cant wait to see this full of frogs :mf_dribble:


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## chrism

Looking good! Where did you order the ali and connectors from? Any idea on rack costings? Gotta be cheaper than ENT bought!


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## Morgan Freeman

Looking good man.

*don't comment on the carpet, don't comment on the carpet, don't comment on the carpet*


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## onemanandhisfrog

Morgan Freeman said:


> Looking good man.
> 
> *don't comment on the carpet, don't comment on the carpet, don't comment on the carpet*


if anyone was gonna say something i knew it would be you morg :lol2:


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## soundstounite

Annihilation said:


> Looking good!


Thanks dude your sig says where i'm at, :censor:ing annihalated, my god i am so cream crackered Stu


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## soundstounite

bothrops said:


> I've posted on this so I'm subscribed and will automatically get notification when you up date....
> 
> 
> ...I'm really excited to see how this turns out....I'm also very jealous of you having a spare room and the skills to do this...
> 
> Are you building the vivs from scratch as well as the shelving for them? If so, to what design? If not, what are you using?
> 
> 
> Awesome!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andy


Helloo Andy our new mod,we haven't talked yet i don't think,so hey mate how the bloody hell are ya:notworthy:with all your powers you'll find a thread i posted on here called dart viv builds early stagesblush: at least i think that was what it was called) it will pretty much answer your Q.s......But for those that can't find it ENT style vivs built again,(as the window) out of 'erm rubbish....plus some SAFE silicone of course. As to the skills...ha ha i am just one seriously STUBBORN mother:censor: so tend to get there the long way round which means anyone can do this....absolutely anyone...thanks for the subsciption...but be patient mate i work SLOW...and HARD...Stu


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## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Epic:2thumb:


....thankyou BRO and again for all your support...stunning advice...and for having such a great laugh with us...thanks gandi:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## soundstounite

onemanandhisfrog said:


> woohoo, good work so far!


 wait for me buddy i'm getting there....thanks for the encouragement...lets see if it all goes together and stands the vivs eh? then i can start breathing again


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## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> Looking good stu:2thumb:


Buddy i nearly missed ya sorry bro....any news on them eggs...don't worry kiddo it'll happen and then we'll be down south in ROBBIN' mode :lol2::lol2:


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## soundstounite

hugsta said:


> looks great hope it all goes well!:2thumb:


 Cheers buddy we'll see mate we'll see,need it sorted soonas


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## soundstounite

ilovetoads2 said:


> You werent kidding when you said you had been busy! Cant wait to see if finished....:2thumb:


 YEAH man super busy.How are ya mate? i wish i could see it finished too (i can if i close my eyes but thats just the dreamer in me). my main goal is to get the racks up and then 3 vivs in and all our PLANTS safe!!!! Then maybe have a day off am sooooo krackered...Stu


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## soundstounite

chondro13 said:


> Looking AWESOME stu! cant wait to see this full of frogs :mf_dribble:


 HA HA Ha not as much as me,kiddo THANKYOU for all your knowledge you have thrown at us,we soooo need some frogs now(if only to eat some of these ruddy ffs/beans/springs and woods Shaz is breeding in epic proportions) but i don't want to be bashing around like a madman like i am now with frogs here so just a little bit longer HONEST...CHEERS HEL ya rock S


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## soundstounite

chrism said:


> Looking good! Where did you order the ali and connectors from? Any idea on rack costings? Gotta be cheaper than ENT bought!


 cheers dude don't worry all the Q's will be answered


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## sambridge15

looks like this is going to be amazing ! try do a step by step on every single build:2thumb:


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## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Looking good man.
> 
> *don't comment on the carpet, don't comment on the carpet, don't comment on the carpet*


 Ha Ha pick on the guy whom has less frogs than you:2thumb:...and not as many empty tanks either:Na_Na_Na_Na:....Ha i suppose its a fair shout we BOTH hate it too,but if its a shout between carpet or frogs well ya know where we are going...MAYBE it will look good in your new GAff eh,:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:
And buddy just to be serious for a mo(but not too long) thanks for your great advice and monster(frogless:lol2:,sorry) viv builds ...Cheers STU


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## soundstounite

sambridge15 said:


> looks like this is going to be amazing ! try do a step by step on every single build:2thumb:


Thanks Sam,the first 3 are here somewhere,see my reply to Bothrops our mod,i will try to keep this running untill complete,but that my friend will take a while:lol2:,the viv thread will reappear as soon as this rack is finished ...can't wait to plant the 60 cube..Stu


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## sambridge15

soundstounite said:


> Thanks Sam,the first 3 are here somewhere,see my reply to Bothrops our mod,i will try to keep this running untill complete,but that my friend will take a while:lol2:,the viv thread will reappear as soon as this rack is finished ...can't wait to plant the 60 cube..Stu


yea i remember following your last build im amazed at the speed as amphibian folk are churning out vivs atm.... not sure there will be enough to fill them all may all end up like a certain other person on here :lol2:


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## soundstounite

sambridge15 said:


> yea i remember following your last build im amazed at the speed as amphibian folk are churning out vivs atm.... not sure there will be enough to fill them all may all end up like a certain other person on here :lol2:


.....wadda ya mean:lol2:...carpet baggers ...Eh?:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2::lol2::lol2:.....Maybe if our breeders don't hurry up we will all go Dutch :notworthy:. Its a wonder really that there are so very few suppliers but then i suppose in the big scheme there aren't that many of us phib fanatics


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## bothrops

soundstounite said:


> Helloo Andy our new mod,we haven't talked yet i don't think,so hey mate how the bloody hell are ya:notworthy:with all your powers you'll find a thread i posted on here called dart viv builds early stagesblush: at least i think that was what it was called) it will pretty much answer your Q.s......But for those that can't find it ENT style vivs built again,(as the window) out of 'erm rubbish....plus some SAFE silicone of course. As to the skills...ha ha i am just one seriously STUBBORN mother:censor: so tend to get there the long way round which means anyone can do this....absolutely anyone...thanks for the subsciption...but be patient mate i work SLOW...and HARD...Stu


Hello to you too sir! (though, I'm not THAT new!)

I take it this is the thread you are refering to?

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/547487-dart-viv-build-early-stages.html

Good luck with the rest of it

*dreams of a spare room and lots of time and money!*


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## soundstounite

bothrops said:


> Hello to you too sir! (though, I'm not THAT new!):blush:
> 
> I take it this is the thread you are refering to?
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/547487-dart-viv-build-early-stages.html
> 
> Good luck with the rest of it
> 
> *dreams of a spare room and lots of time and money!*


 yes Andie thats the one cheers mate now i will be able to find it too:blush::blush:...ha ha looks like we have similar dreams then: ok i have a room but as far as time...i work 6 days as a carer( he he buy one get one free 'cause me lady is very unwell and is really starting to struggle poor thing couldn't even pick up her ff cultures this morn) and money...well they pay penuts which is why i have to be a cunning old:2thumb: sod and DIY. Will get some more up tomorrow...my old clock work computer:lol2: has taken all evening to load da photos into photobucket. Mate anything advice wise or tips ...criticisms all hugely appreciated,,,,,SLEEP Stu


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## peterspets

soundstounite said:


> It would be relatively easy for me to build all our racking for the frogs out of wood ...i love fighting with the stuff and have done so more or less since i kept my first phibs yonks ago when the only food ya could buy were mealworms,But the stuff moves,and with us trying to make all our vivs out of recylcled glass it seemed to make sense to go with aliminium. Bloody expensive but light as hell compared with wood and also doesn't take up the space that wood of the same strengh would:2thumb:,this is real important as this room is for me darling who loves the darts as much as i do....and is 'erm vertically challenged...for those not so politically correct a ruddy short ass:lol2::lol2:. I love the clinical look of the ENT racks but there is no way that we could afford them so as always we will go the longer but hugely cheeper route MAKE it. The ali arrives
> 
> image


Like the T.G. Green, especially the rare lemon juicer!Are you a collector?


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## soundstounite

peterspets said:


> Like the T.G. Green, especially the rare lemon juicer!Are you a collector?


Ha ha gotcha ,yep we well one day i found out me darling liked da blue 'n'white so yep we totally do collect but its a very slow burn thing and the gotcha is well they remade 'em so it ain't quite so rare...good blag though:2thumb: and of course usefull....but them little coffee cups(her chrimbo pres...few years back oh man the joy of watching her open them)...what are they called name eludes me...DOH...well we were told by TG they never made 'em...ha ha but they are here...prob the only ones(poss anywhere...ha ha)...even bigger :lol2::lol2: is i made a cupboard so she can't even reach the little sods(can't break 'em )...and this is phib builds :lol2::lol2:....i dunno you show people a bit of ali:whistling2:......


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## sambridge15

soundstounite said:


> .....wadda ya mean:lol2:...carpet baggers ...Eh?:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2::lol2::lol2:.....Maybe if our breeders don't hurry up we will all go Dutch :notworthy:. Its a wonder really that there are so very few suppliers but then i suppose in the big scheme there aren't that many of us phib fanatics


i find the phib section has a very nice community of regulars and im sure with all your frogs when you finish this you will be churning out froglets :mf_dribble:


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## soundstounite

sambridge15 said:


> i find the phib section has a very nice community of regulars and im sure with all your frogs when you finish this you will be churning out froglets :mf_dribble:


 Agreed Sam...there are some LOVELY people here....as to the second part yep of 'course we want to breed....that is totally what this is about (not a frog factory but to marvel at how these little guy do their thang)..our EVENTUAL dream would be to get to a stage both knowledge and experiance wise where we could in some TINY way help a little bit with conservation....everyone has dreams...eh?


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## soundstounite

So here we go back to the Ali....For Chrism and Marc D the Ali comes from the Aliuminium Warehouse...Im sure one of ya good people will provide us all with a proper web adress ya'll know what i'm like with this ruddy machine:lol2:...the Ali is top draw but i am totally not convinced as to the connectors.....Chris as far as price goes i reckon this will work out at about 1/2 what an ENT set up will cost...maybe 1/3rd....the rack i am working on will cost somewhere about £850...if ya bought it at ent,they have a template set up on their site which you can plumb in your set up. But BEAWARE the work to make one of these is unbeleivably HUGE, soo soo MUCH...although i am slow,..... as a drummer i do repeat stuff to the Nth degree these racks are seriously time consuming requiring one hell of a meticulous mindset.


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## berksmike

Looking good mate - this is exactly the sort of thing I'd like to set up one day. Great slection of plants too. Good luck!


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## Ron Magpie

Excellent work, mate! Are you going for 'standard size vivs, are you planning any variations? What if you decide to have something aside from darts?


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## soundstounite

berksmike said:


> Looking good mate - this is exactly the sort of thing I'd like to set up one day. Great slection of plants too. Good luck!


 Cheers Mike,am seriously worried about me plants got to get 'em in SOON before it gets cold...Need to get this computer interweb thaing sorted to driving me nut tried for an hour last night to show more pics...ARGH


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## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Excellent work, mate! Are you going for 'standard size vivs, are you planning any variations? What if you decide to have something aside from darts?


 Hey buddy how are you sir?...Well i suppose the 60 ish cubes are not standard...and the middle 60x60x40high is def not though the other 2 walls we will go for more run of the mill...well as to the second Q...'erm i think me darts will be enough ...but there is always the greenhouse with the heatsink i have been playing with....and the garage....and maybe when i'm to old to play my beloved drums...i might give up me studio...though that would be a MASSIVE step, lets see if i can show ya what i've been up to 'eh


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## soundstounite

WARNING...this thread contains serious amounts of aliminium:whistling2: OK here's a quick sketch of what we are trying to build








What is unreal is the amount of stuff that goes into one of these racks...the sheer volume of cuts and mitres to get through is astonishing


















we are using two differing types of angle as well as the tube one 3/4x3/4x1/16" is to act as a support for the lights between vivs,the other smaller is(1/2x1/2x1/16") is to be used to "frame" the sides and the lighting sections....


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## soundstounite

all the small angle was mitred after being cut to length








the wood fence was still used on the saw to keep the cuts downhill ...don't want bits of ali flying around









We worked up the legs first....incidentally we are securing the angle to the tube with pop rivets









So the leg sorted


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## ilovetoads2

It all looks very complicated...hurry up man, I wont get a good nights sleep till this is done! :2thumb:


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## soundstounite

Once we had worked up all the legs, not forgetting the central ones have differing conectors/placement of angles








,i then made up all the bits for each front to back section,easyist to do this one side at a time or one might get totally befuddled here are the bits for one end








and some detail shots of the side


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## soundstounite

OOORAAA first side sorted
















So now pretty much straight foward :lol2::lol2: make the other ruddy end and the middle do one at a time unless your brain is huge stuff starts to get handed about this time, mistakes are easily made...although it is relatively easy to remove a pop rivet you simply drill it out with the same diameter drill bit so guys 3 sides


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## soundstounite

ilovetoads2 said:


> It all looks very complicated...hurry up man, I wont get a good nights sleep till this is done! :2thumb:


 Ha Ha you and me both kiddo am trying to uncomplicate it as much as i can.....its easier than working this computer though:blush:.i have even managed to miss aload of pics i put em up in a while if poss.


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## soundstounite

Backtracking slightly just to show ya a few pics of the sides going together























IMG]
You can see in the last pic the very top of the rack,as with all the partitions that will carry the light we are going to use a piece of 5mm pvc foamboard,to carry the lights. I made i little jig with a piece of wood to save measuring the 5mm for every one and so we could be sure they fit flush


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## soundstounite




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## chrism

As before, where get the Ali from? What's costing compared to ent, and got your source of black foam board stuff?


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## Alex M

I'm liking this Stu, but having looked at all the gear - Congratulations on winning the Euromillions, money well spent. Can't wait to see it up and running mate, Al


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## soundstounite

aha thats better pic went astray somehow??? So now all we need to do is knock up the bits that join the 3 sides together, it is amazing how many there are of everything,28 pieces of tube plus all the angles both small for the front lighting areas and larger to carry the foamboard(oh yeah thanks again Andrew for sorting that for me). On the subject of foamboard ours came from the Robert Horne Group..bloody top service EVEN got the driver to ring me so i could pop home ,GREAT guys!!! we are going to use white throughout as the cost is alot less than black ...but it should blend well with the white walls:blush::lol2:and its the vivs/ frogs that are what we are really looking at eh? i will post more when i can get the photos into photo bucket arghh again so so frustrating.


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## soundstounite

chrism said:


> As before, where get the Ali from? What's costing compared to ent, and got your source of black foam board stuff?


 Chris me old mate its already answered kiddo have devoted a section to your Q....page 5...permalink 45....buddy if you still can't find it i'll write it again second Q just answered above this Would have answered ya quicker but ruddy computer is:censor:ing with me...thanks for your interest


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## chrism

Ha ha, sorry dude- swear I miss pages with my iPhone- will look properly tomorrow! Rooms looking great! Would offer to help if I was closer!


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## soundstounite

Alex M said:


> I'm liking this Stu, but having looked at all the gear - Congratulations on winning the Euromillions, money well spent. Can't wait to see it up and running mate, Al


 Ha ha in my dreams mate i just save the dosh on everything else...bloody good job i grow our own food:lol2:Here mate looks like from your new sig pic you've been doing some serious shedding this summer:lol2:...though i'm not sure about the baby oil look:gasp:. And ya know how slow i am its taken us nearly a 18 months of reserch to get this far....so so much to learn...Stu


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## soundstounite

chrism said:


> Ha ha, sorry dude- swear I miss pages with my iPhone- will look properly tomorrow! Rooms looking great! Would offer to help if I was closer!


 Thanks bro it would be great to have someone with your knowledge to bash me before i do sommit stupid,its alot for a beginner,and although i have kept a lot of 'stock birds are only so relevent here!!!!!


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## richie.b

like the look of the racking Stu, i had a load of shelving from woolworths warehouse for my frogroom its good gear, sadly now full of paint and tools.
the spare bedroom ive just done out but went for the easy option of timber.

So what darts are you getting and when you going to start getting them, you are going to have a lot of vivs to fill
oh and bring those plants in before you lose them all, getting colder next week


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## soundstounite

here we go then sticking the sides together, man its actully starting to look like a rack methinks......








so first two sides linked.....half way through last section








And there ya go boys and girls one rack frame








To elababourate on the boards that carry the lights here a little pick to demonstrate what i was wafflin' about earlier








So i'm gonna have a quick look at the phib now seeya...Stu


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## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> like the look of the racking Stu, i had a load of shelving from woolworths warehouse for my frogroom its good gear, sadly now full of paint and tools.
> the spare bedroom ive just done out but went for the easy option of timber.
> 
> So what darts are you getting and when you going to start getting them, you are going to have a lot of vivs to fill
> oh and bring those plants in before you lose them all, getting colder next week


 Oh mate i was so so tempted by wood...i'd be finished now:blush: and i still have a lot to do oodles infact ,mate i so desparatly want frogs NOW...TONITE but i must sort this room first,am at it all the time till i loose the light...then got to do some serious viv building but am hoping to do that at a more sedate pace that way i can get say some leucs or azzies for a start and start to learn the ropes as it were....gotta walk before i run eh, MATE thanks for the plant/weather tip...am pushing the boat but this first rack will give me a bit of a window as it were....Thanks for ALL the help mate Stu


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## Booty

looking good. posting this to sub. look forward to more. :notworthy:


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## Jezza84

show off! :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Wolfenrook

Having seen aluminium profile racks before Stu, stick with it bud it will be all worth it once it's finished! Not the cheapest way of going about things though.... lol

Ade


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## FrogNick

Good job stu i'm almost jealous 

Do you mind telling me how much it costs once done; just be interested to see the price different from the ENT rack you can buy.

looking forward to seeing it full!


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## soundstounite

Booty said:


> looking good. posting this to sub. look forward to more. :notworthy:


 Ta buddy am at it..more will definately come....not good ....am being attacked by a bad tempered DUCK, aww but ya got to love her


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## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> show off! :Na_Na_Na_Na:


 ha ha but i'd have been so so much better off if you had sorted the mitres mate...have ya got that pum yet matey:bash::bash:


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## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Ta buddy am at it..more will definately come....not good ....am being attacked by a bad tempered DUCK, aww but ya got to love her
> image


Nice little call duck Stu, dont want anymore do you mine are doing my :censor: head in with there calling noisy little buggers, how such a small cute thing can make so much noise.Poor cockeral doesnt stand a chance in the morning:bash:


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> Good job stu i'm almost jealous
> 
> Do you mind telling me how much it costs once done; just be interested to see the price different from the ENT rack you can buy.
> 
> looking forward to seeing it full!


 Hey there buddy how the devil are ya? did ya have a good trip to the land of the dutch?....did ya bring back sommit nice?....ha ha only almost jealous:gasp:.....how could ya be mate we don't have any frogs.....YET :whistling2: Nicky this i reckon as i said to Chrism is gonna work out about 1/2 to 1/3 ent....would cost roughly 850 euro (OUCH) if ya had it made.....BUT the trade off is an UNBELEIVEABLE amount of work,way way more than i had reckoned for ...and i am fortunate to have the tools...have always made stuff.....still had to buy a blade for cutting the ali though add £60...so its TOTALLY once in a life time thing for a humble guy like me... but as ya know i plan on doing this as long as i am around ... so i beleive its worth the wonga...and of course i so so need somewhere warm for shaz to do her thang (she is one hell of a stockman) well she is being ravaged buy this ruddy arthur itis so its gotta be as good as i can manage ...of course it will make looking after these little stunning frogs as hassle free as poss. which i hope (dream )will make both there lives better Stu


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Nice little call duck Stu, dont want anymore do you mine are doing my :censor: head in with there calling noisy little buggers, how such a small cute thing can make so much noise.Poor cockeral doesnt stand a chance in the morning:bash:


 Yep she's a one in a million mate...she has chosen(totally not an imprint) to come and sit with us most evenings She likes a cuddle not like any duck i have EVER known and i have reared let us say a few as to the noise well me old mate thats what they breed em forBLOODY COMPUTER


----------



## soundstounite

soundstounite said:


> Yep she's a one in a million mate...she has chosen(totally not an imprint) to come and sit with us most evenings She likes a cuddle not like any duck i have EVER known and i have reared let us say a few as to the noise well me old mate thats what they breed em forBLOODY COMPUTER


SORRY mate, being messed with,they always sound like laughter to me its a happy noise though around this time of year they are youre right NOISEY sods...Mate i didn't totally answer you Q the other day these 6 big vivs are for communal frogs mainly auratus leucs and galacs which we hope to keep in groups of 5, we'll see...Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Right then,back at it.....sides filled in with foam board(sorry ADE i have just realised i haven't answered ya wil soon buddy sorry)








nearly there and complete








Of course for those really paying attention ya already know i have gone out on a limb by using recycled glass that is shall we say a bit on the THIN side so to alliviate the possibility of broken viv we stuffed some polystyrene between hard stuff and glass and used a hole saw and me old perspex template to locate the drainage hole in the right place


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> SORRY mate, being messed with,they always sound like laughter to me its a happy noise though around this time of year they are youre right NOISEY sods...Mate i didn't totally answer you Q the other day these 6 big vivs are for communal frogs mainly auratus leucs and galacs which we hope to keep in groups of 5, we'll see...Stu


laughter, sound like suzi and the banshees to me :gasp:

nice choice of darts to keep in groups, dont forget terribilis everyone should have a group of those, just built a nice 3ft viv for mine bloody lovely :2thumb:

one question are you going to start selling that racking :no1:


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> laughter, sound like suzi and the banshees to me :gasp:
> 
> nice choice of darts to keep in groups, dont forget terribilis everyone should have a group of those, just built a nice 3ft viv for mine bloody lovely :2thumb:
> 
> one question are you going to start selling that racking :no1:


Ahh man suzis cool...once saw em on the same bill as....wait for it....CHAS AND DAVE:lol2: totally true great gig..... no terriblis not forgotton but ok ya win want the orange.....sell these racks, mate i'd be stoked but i don't think i'd be any better off than a china man making cymbols for 2p a month....bummer but i suppose thats why ent charge so much ...so so so much work its truely frightening Rich and i have done just about every shit job known to man ...even split rocks for a while to feed me family and not in the nick either....hard core mate...it could cirtainly be made easier with jigs etc....but i just want it done now for the mo want da froshe so shaz can get inspired...STU


----------



## soundstounite

So (my god if i type this again i will go nuts 3rd attempt) here we go: for those who are really following this ya know i have gone out on a limb by trying to use old recycled glass that is shall we say a blt on the thin side...but hey ho ya gotta take some liberties eh? so here we go move one glass viv and stuff it in the aforementioned rack








OORRAA SORTED massive thanks to me son for his help...and not broken YET, ha ha after months of waiting we might get to plant this sucker after all, now all we gotta do is sort the drainage, lights misting system bring in loads and loads and erm LOADS of plants and OMG build another couple of racks:whip::whip::whip::bash::bash::bash::Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:...BRING IT ON


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Having seen aluminium profile racks before Stu, stick with it bud it will be all worth it once it's finished! Not the cheapest way of going about things though.... lol
> 
> Ade


 Yep Agreed my friend not the cheepest though i have made massive savings eslewhere that have allowed us this,of course just buying the vivs at around £120 a shot an actual quote will nearly see me straight ...(of course with no factoring in for my time)...also of course i would have had to use smaller vivs because the timber would have to be so much thicker and there is also the added weight issue(but to be fair one could probably put a bomb in there now i have been at it...slight over kill).There is also the issue of timber moving ..you must remember i have no experiance to draw on like others (humidity levels etc) and last but not least the metal will be one hell of alot easier to keep clean and with some of my past experiances with livestock (granted birds) i am massively aware of how much a setup can be of benefit to both the stock and the smooth running of a (hopefull) breeding facility such as this...so i hope what little money i have i am pushing to the right area....of course without first hand experiance i may fall flat on my face its a biggy. I think that doing it this way is both a huge risk and a bonus but if i manage to get it right it might...i repeat might be the best i can do for both Shaz and of course...our little darty friends, all great ideas are either madness or inspired we'll se which this is mate...I am ering on the side of maddness untill i cut the last bit of ali:whistling2: Stu


----------



## Jezza84

soundstounite said:


> ha ha but i'd have been so so much better off if you had sorted the mitres mate...have ya got that pum yet matey:bash::bash:


No Marc can't get hold of a female so he is having the Almirante back and im having the Guaramo instead. Almirante are going back monday not sure when the others will be here. its a shame but it was not ment to be. Azureus have produced another clutch today here is hoping they fertilise them this time. One of my vanz started calling a couple of weeks back and know desent shut up lol and my leucs are calling too. 
Your racking is looking ace stu. Very good job you are doing there and your mitres look fine lol. which way are you going with lighting for your racking? hows the racking for stability? are you going to fix it to the wall for a bit of extra security? 

Jezz


----------



## sambridge15

looking great :notworthy: just a though have you though of starting to culture springs and woodlice yet might save you some pennies if you can get a good culture going now as it looks like you have a ton if vivs to do !!:mf_dribble:


----------



## soundstounite

sambridge15 said:


> looking great :notworthy: just a though have you though of starting to culture springs and woodlice yet might save you some pennies if you can get a good culture going now as it looks like you have a ton if vivs to do !!:mf_dribble:


 Hey buddy how are ya? Thanks for the kindness Sam....erm yep were on it mate...got about 8 to 10 springs on the go....half a dozen trop woods(though one went drastically pants yesterday,consensus is maybe a bit too wet), 3 large beanweavil cultures, and ruddy loadsa ffs (i think we went at the ffs a bit early but you gotta be sure you can do this stuff) .Here is a couple of pics first ffs on their way to a bigger jar









and the beans







GREAT shout though Sam: victory:


----------



## soundstounite

Jezza comming mate gotta help me darling play plants....at last. will answer ya in a while bro..Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

So how many vivs will this hold in total?


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> So how many vivs will this hold in total?


 This rack mate will hold 6....4 60cm ish cubes 2x 40 high 60x60pic on permalink 78 shows it....the room...erm aha...more than 6,these will be groups of 5 frosch: auatus leucs galacs and Richie i forgot the misties aww love em, other racks got to work on the floor plan but will only be 40 deep.


----------



## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> No Marc can't get hold of a female so he is having the Almirante back and im having the Guaramo instead. Almirante are going back monday not sure when the others will be here. its a shame but it was not ment to be. Azureus have produced another clutch today here is hoping they fertilise them this time. One of my vanz started calling a couple of weeks back and know desent shut up lol and my leucs are calling too.
> Your racking is looking ace stu. Very good job you are doing there and your mitres look fine lol. which way are you going with lighting for your racking? hows the racking for stability? are you going to fix it to the wall for a bit of extra security?
> 
> Jezz


Thanks mate....lighting is and i'll show ya, if i don't fall asleep, ent jobs iniatly straight (for the plants) but later with uvb bulbs,round about £40 each,one of the big pluses is they can be chained up to 240 watts so not so many plugs needed...downer is you have to buy the biovital bulb as an extra but this means i will never be short of a bulb so gotta be positive i suppose though its a bit irritating,as far as stability its one of those constructions which gets more rigid as it goes but i am not completely happy with the conectors front to back is now rigid but there is a bit of sideward movement and yes i am working on a way of attaching it to a wall...i very nearly put in a diagonal brace on the back though that might have been overkill,though its a bloody big lump so just a bolt to the wall top right should alleviate my worries


----------



## Morgan Freeman

soundstounite said:


> This rack mate will hold 6....4 60cm ish cubes 2x 40 high 60x60pic on permalink 78 shows it....the room...erm aha...more than 6,these will be groups of 5 frosch: auatus leucs galacs and Richie i forgot the misties aww love em, other racks got to work on the floor plan but will only be 40 deep.


Quite a few then!


----------



## soundstounite

Lighting very simple really a couple of self tappers through the 5mm pvc to hold the ent clips which are supplied,and a coupl of clips to make sure,the lighting unit is straight out of the box but ya gotta stick on an ENGLISH plug...sods and is fused 10 amp which we don't use:bash::bash: so put on a 3 amp on advice from Shaz's Dad,whom is a sparky will speak to marc at dartfrog where they came from and update. So here is the clip anchored with a COUNTERSUNK self tapper









which is to big so i ground em off


----------



## Jezza84

cool as :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Ruddy net done me again soddin' hell so now clip in the light








Hook up the power and ....let there be light








Jezz ya can see the cover strip i was wafflin' about at the bottom of the pic


----------



## soundstounite

So after one hell of a lot of work this for me is the really COOL bit...Shaz went to the sweetshop (well a plastic tent and a heatsink green house in our garden) and she picked out these








And then bless she told me where to stick em:blush:


----------



## soundstounite

No moss yet other than on the 2 coco huts which have been growing for around a year....oh hell I'm gonna savour this one its a big deal for me
























So moss tomorrow and a bit of stuff...some sleep.....and then start cutting some :censor::censor::censor::censor::censor: ali......HELP....HELP:lol2::lol2:


----------



## sambridge15

soundstounite said:


> No moss yet other than on the 2 coco huts which have been growing for around a year....oh hell I'm gonna savour this one its a big deal for me
> image
> image
> image
> So moss tomorrow and a bit of stuff...some sleep.....and then start cutting some :censor::censor::censor::censor::censor: ali......HELP....HELP:lol2::lol2:


stunning! what are those really small leaved plants im looking for something similar for my viv :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

sambridge15 said:


> stunning! what are those really small leaved plants im looking for something similar for my viv :2thumb:


 Thanks again Sam which ones do ya mean ...front back??...colour?


----------



## s6t6nic6l

:thumb:very informative lessons going on here and well done so far. while i'm here:whistling2: did you try-out your Epoxy...Clay theory and if so what was the outcome. :hmm: cheers.


----------



## Wolfenrook

Stu, I have a 24 watt HO version of that lighting on my 50cm. Stop worrying about the Bio-Vitals bud, if you really want them just get them from here for a fraction of Dartfrog prices (I used them once on one of my aquariums).

Thos viv is looking lovely mate. Is that grape vine wood though there? If so, you might want to rethink it.

Ade


----------



## Morgan Freeman

This is brilliant. Shows what a lot of planning and WAITING can do.


----------



## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> :thumb:very informative lessons going on here and well done so far. while i'm here:whistling2: did you try-out your Epoxy...Clay theory and if so what was the outcome. :hmm: cheers.


 Thankyou mate, buddy is your name Nic?(me eyes find it almost impossible to read your sig...i dont see letter like others do....Shaz sits beside me and corrects me as i go....ruddy back seat DRIVER:bash::lol2 Buddy i owe ya an apology i saw ya replied to what i wrote, but computer went pants and then i FORGOT sorry kiddo, no mate i havent got anywhere near it...this monster has taken over me life...its such a rush partly as i need the "pick up " for Shaz...partly 'cause i gotta move these plants and there are so so so many,and i thought i would be way further on by now...totally underestimated the work that goes into these racks...Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Stu, I have a 24 watt HO version of that lighting on my 50cm. Stop worrying about the Bio-Vitals bud, if you really want them just get them from here for a fraction of Dartfrog prices (I used them once on one of my aquariums).
> 
> Thos viv is looking lovely mate. Is that grape vine wood though there? If so, you might want to rethink it.
> 
> Ade


 Your a STAR mate, will definetly check out your link, haven't had a mo. yet, just wanted the reply up first. No the wood is our native Lonicera...honeysuckle...and yep i have reservations about how long it will last...so its was cut real careful so it holds itself in place fixed with a good dose of silirub aq ....and we stuffed some compo on the silicon to hide our misdemeanor.:whistling2:...if it fails then i can just whip it out...no worries: victory:. The background wood is our good ol english oak...Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> This is brilliant. Shows what a lot of planning and WAITING can do.


 Aww shucks mate...that means ONE hell of a lot from you...you my friend have tried to help us from the first day we posted our never ending Q.s on here.....and i guess you've been playing the waiting game too(god kiddo its a tough one) .its a matter of just banging ones head against a wall untill the f:censor:er fall down, i have only the experiance of a kid with phibs so its gotta be slow...still flying by the seat of me pants though, real difficult planning how to get the sizes of the racks in the room...gonna set out some big pieces of card (as templates) to try and work out the floor area and how to maximise it so we can work easy.....wish i could go and see a lot more frog rooms but there aren't that many about in striking distance......softly softly catchy monkey eh?...erm froggy


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> No moss yet other than on the 2 coco huts which have been growing for around a year....oh hell I'm gonna savour this one its a big deal for me
> image
> image
> image
> So moss tomorrow and a bit of stuff...some sleep.....and then start cutting some :censor::censor::censor::censor::censor: ali......HELP....HELP:lol2::lol2:


Thats nice Stu, it will all be worth the hard work when the frogs are in and everything is going to plan.just hope you dont get to bored just sitting around watching frogs :whistling2:


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Thats nice Stu, it will all be worth the hard work when the frogs are in and everything is going to plan.just hope you dont get to bored just sitting around watching frogs :whistling2:


Ha Ha,1 everything going to plan ...its never that way for me buddy....2 how could i ever get bored watching animals...they facinate me always have ever since a child (but that s the same for all of us i reckon)...sister was always jealous 'cause i had a robin that would feed from my hand as a well 7/8 year old...but it took yonks to make it happen ....i just love this stuff....and of course observation is 70/80 of being a stockman...ya reckon?


----------



## s6t6nic6l

soundstounite said:


> Thankyou mate, buddy is your name Nic?(me eyes find it almost impossible to read your sig...i dont see letter like others do....Shaz sits beside me and corrects me as i go....ruddy back seat DRIVER:bash::lol2 Buddy i owe ya an apology i saw ya replied to what i wrote, but computer went pants and then i FORGOT sorry kiddo, no mate i havent got anywhere near it...this monster has taken over me life...its such a rush partly as i need the "pick up " for Shaz...partly 'cause i gotta move these plants and there are so so so many,and i thought i would be way further on by now...totally underestimated the work that goes into these racks...Stu


:cheers: but keep us posted if you try that one out. oh and don't worry about the name it baffles many. clue = :devil:ish tendencies....:hmm:


----------



## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> :cheers: but keep us posted if you try that one out. oh and don't worry about the name it baffles many. clue = :devil:ish tendencies....:hmm:


DOH......well thats me mate...dumb as f:censor: most of the time and occassionally quite bright...oh hell i'll just get me coat :blush:


----------



## soundstounite

More on lights,firstly after putting in the first viv prototype i realised that the light was too far back....after several attempts it was in what i reckon is the right place so we adjusted the rest to suit,well still giving a good dollop of light through the mesh(uvb dosen't travel through glass. So why is it that one gets the best ideas when one is asleep? So good idea is simply to light 2 vivs with one light and save a bit of wonga...also in fixing it i can support the 5mm pvc board that is used as the floor for the viv above. Unfortunately the bottom floor of the rack is now out of bounds due to the viv being in there(and there is no way that i am moving that for the forseeable future).We cut a length of the 3/4 angle so that it sat across the rack 








The ends and center were notched out to accept the front to back crossmembers


----------



## soundstounite

and then this was fixed into place with 3 pop rivets,before we fixed it,we also added the fixings to carry the lights,these are supplied in the lighting kit i bought(ent/dartfrog)








as above with new lighting bracket in place
















once this malarky was sorted we simply clipped the light in place








and a couple more pics will follow so ya get the drift...


----------



## soundstounite

Doing this took way to long as i have been suffering a MASSIVE does of man flu....(girls go "i don't care" boys sympathetic:Na_Na_Na_Na. And finally in the words of ACDC LET THERE BE LIGHT!!!!:mf_dribble:








As you can see and already know if paying attention:whip: we have a couple or three plants on the go and 2 40cm cubes stashed in the heatsink greenhouse...so we got those mothers in quick sharp last night,although it got to close to -4c last night my worries were unfounded...heatsink/solar syphon had done its job(10c in da house) me plants would have been ok but still a bit touch and go....and after all that work stretching back to last year i was relieved to see em sommit like safe for the mo.


----------



## soundstounite

So well i'm harping on about plants here are some of da broms,...NB...only one of a species bought!!








and well it don't look like we'll be having anyone over for dinner...and i will now eat off the floor untill its sorted or spring comes...bugger








The 2 40cubes have been living in the G.H. too,not recomended but just doable,though i lost a couple of plants in 2 very hot days just after planting, though interesting the trop woods and springs are still about:notworthy: good on ya guys.


----------



## soundstounite

Fern on the left in the first viv may well have to be taken out,has had way to much light and not great ...we'll see. our big ol 60 cube has also had some moss added and a couple of ruddy expensive orchids...but what the hell all the other plants we breed from our stock so cost only compo and ...erm a bit of TIME


----------



## Alex M

soundstounite said:


> image


Stu, i have to say, absolutely beautiful - i am very envious, i've wanted a set of those curtains for ages



Only joking, everythings looking fantastic and very professional, for a 'beginner' phib keeper (your words) you certainly have a natural ability for creating naturalistic vivaria. Keep up the good work mate, and any idea on what species you're after yet to fill those beautiful vivs? Cheers Al


----------



## soundstounite

Alex M said:


> Stu, i have to say, absolutely beautiful - i am very envious, i've wanted a set of those curtains for ages
> 
> 
> 
> Only joking, everythings looking fantastic and very professional, for a 'beginner' phib keeper (your words) you certainly have a natural ability for creating naturalistic vivaria. Keep up the good work mate, and any idea on what species you're after yet to fill those beautiful vivs? Cheers Al


 Ha ha no worries mate(you can have first shot at em...Morgan wants me carpet Peterspets is gonna nick the cornishware by the time our room is finished we will just have a bare kitchen...and i thought another drummer would stand up for me:Na_Na_Na_Na...oh and while we're at it anyone want a genunine 1930's cast iron bath was put in here when the place was built:lol2: Fairplay mate you really made us both laugh, i kept a few phibs as a boy mate,so yep as far as this dart lark goes WE ARE totally beginners,and have no probs being called that,we both wish we had the first hand knowledge that would make doing something like this more straightfoward, its scareystuff dude,and there's little animals involved so it has gotta be slow...but there are some huge minds helping us along both here and elsewhere (for when we get too paranoid). Al thanks for the kind words about the vivs,bit overplanted maybe but what i think is equally important is trying to maximise the climbing surface/ hideyhole habitat aspect,maybe a stimulating environment is a better way of putting it,for the frogs,' tis a glass box and that messes with me mate, we have tried to install little calling perches for the fellas etc ya know what i'm trying to say. As far as species,these 6 in this rack, will hopefully go to auratus,leucs,galacs misties(groups of up to 6individuals)the 2 little 40s are for young un's/animals that need separating etc maybe thumbs (love da vanzolinii)but i have issues with the size,for longterm residency.


----------



## soundstounite

oh PS did ya get ya pens and rubbers back from Ben?


----------



## soundstounite

So while we are scratching our 'eads about what exactly to do with the rest of the room, layout wise ie trying to make the most of it, and also factor in, rearing and froglets, it seemed a good idea as i have some down time (in me dreams don't think i have had a day off for 3 weeks:gasp:...good init ) it might be fun to have a fight with some glass for a while...hey ho
here we go then ( ha managed to cock it up on the first day...DOH..:bash::bash So off we go viv time, i had already drilled a hole out for the drainset in a 60 square (yonks ago), i use i perspex template which not only locates the hole in the right place but is also marked up for the 2 pieces of glass that make up the water channel at the front of an ent style viv


----------



## soundstounite

Trouble is i got so involved with getting the second base piece cut to size (this is because i am using old recycled glass that is a bit thin so i silicon a 2nd pice underneath the first which also has a slight overhang on the sides) that when i could not find me template (erm it was where it should be doh) i carried on drilled the second base stuck on 3 sides and called the job well done and left it to set....HMMMMMM
Next day came in and straight away realised sommit was wrong the drain hole is sitting exactly where the front of the drainage chanel should be....BOLLOX,walked away and slept onit.
Today when i finished work set about a solution, oh and found me template after about 1 min of looking:bash:..plonker!!! so i thought it might be of interest this was kinda the best i could manage as taking the thing to bit would have been nigh on impossible what with the base with its rebates and doube glass bla bla...a quick pic of the base


----------



## soundstounite

and some detail of the modification.....:blush:
















of course with the drainset offered up to be sure froggie can't get trapped, i also made the front bit that will carry the air vent a bit higher than usual as the mesh will cover the drain to some degree


----------



## ipreferaflan

Alex M said:


> Stu, i have to say, absolutely beautiful - i am very envious, i've wanted a set of those curtains for ages


That made me lol.


----------



## soundstounite

So there ya go this is where i am at tonight,and of course some will be saying why risk old glass that is too thin a ruddy'mare to cut etc etc well here's the reason.....the drainset is the mostexpensive bit in this viv...£5...bought viv...around £130...i have to make 6 just for this rack...QED

























think thats it for now Stu


----------



## soundstounite

ipreferaflan said:


> That made me lol.


 Priceless:notworthy::notworthy: had us realing


----------



## blood and guts

Awsome work: victory:


----------



## Fonzie

Very impressive.


----------



## serpentsupplies

quality room and very jealous


----------



## soundstounite

All 3 of you....THANKYOU...though i could do without messing up like this week...doh.... just hope the get out of jail card works out ok cheers you'all Stu


----------



## soundstounite

just gonna bring this up for a mo while some pics load so i can find it Stu


----------



## soundstounite

lots of thoughts going on at the mo so before i go into the whys and wherefores of trying to build a viv out of old glass some grey matter.....our first rack is holding lighting of 2x 54 watts 2x 24 my elecly bill has doubled HELP!! the offshot is that the plants are going great guns ...offcourse they are well addapted to living in a veryhumid environment with low air circulation having been kept in propergators all their lives,the mosses have grown nearly an inch in some cases, orchids putting out new roots bla bla!! so as already posted anyone know of a led alternative (although the uvb issue is already messing with me . On the subjest of temp is their a gizmo out there that measures max/min temps on multiple vivs? oh and ya can chuck in RH to that as well? 
Has anyone any thoughts on how they would modify an ent viv so it doesn't stay quite so wet in the substrate,or have condensation at the top of the front glass? Of course these probs might be of my own doing so all thoughts appreciated though we are using a very free draining substrate for the former.
Our relative humidity is way to low according to our gizmo any thoughs on how much this will


----------



## soundstounite

(Sorry web probs)....change once more vivs are in the racks? 
On the subject of food for frogs well nobody can say Shaz aint prepared here are some she made earlier
















NB get your trop woods before you have even thought about keeping darts: victory: next the springs then the beans and do a small trial with ffs then get ready for the real deal otherwise you'll end up with shedloadsa ffs and nothing to feed em to:blush: other than me mate whom i might go all off topic about AGAIN:gasp:







ah bless she's been vivbuilding today with me in the garage:lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

so here is the stage i'm at with the "cockup" viv just got to complete the water testing had the tinyist of leaks so am waiting for the silicon to cure ,4 days of agony and then it gets a bit more interesting,we can start playing backgrounds,ha! By the way this is the stage i do our vivs to, and then we start to install the background, and next we fit the top/doors etc ,just makes it easier to work,although one must bare in mind that the structure is not complete ...Doh and not try to move it without help...and end up replacing a side, STUpid see its in me name DOH:blush:


----------



## soundstounite

goddamit just lost all the photos i was uploading AAARRGGHH more soon Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Vivarium building ...Some thoughts and techniques....
Thought it might be useful to run though a few of the things i have learnt while building our vivs for the room lets start with cutting glass and in my case old glass. New glass is much easier to cut than old so basically get a square of another peice fo glass to use as such if your square is not big enough of course check it is a right angle,buy a decent glass cutter mine is not the oil filled type which retail at about £30 but a good tool made by Shaw...it was recomended by my local glazier as his tool of preference and was around £7/10.When cutting old glass i first make the usual scratch and then flip the glass over and gently tap the back of the scratch you can actually see the crack appearing on the back...this is done with one side of the glass raised so the glass is trying to break under its own weight,using this technique one can see if the crack is starting to run away from the scratch and then work somewhere else so minimising the run that is going in the wrong direction,here's a pic of me Shaw cutter,i use the ball on the end to tap the back of the scratch


----------



## soundstounite

unfortunately the pics i wanted to show off the crack being worked in the glass don't show what i wanted so if i can get better pics i will post them later After cutting i then drill the hole in the base: this is done with a diamond holesaw








This one actually has acut of glass inside,as you already know i use a perspex template to get the acuracy wanted it also stops the drill wandering so i clamp the template on top of the glass this sits on top of some firm polystyrene ,around the hole a "moat is made out of plastacine and filled with water








then simply drill out the hole(USE A BATTERY DRILL ) while drilling keep lifting the drill up to allow an exchange of water which is cooling and lubricating the cut


----------



## CSJ10

Wow! Awesome room and I love the rack and viv builds.


----------



## soundstounite

and hopefully you will be able to see the drilled holes








As my glass is thin i double up on the base,siliconing to sheets together,the bottom sheet is cut larger to accept the sides but not the back which sits on top....... the base showing the created rebate 








next i run a bead of silicon down the rebates the sides sit on this and also are cushoned to some extent by it the back also has a bead run on 3 edges but not the top
















If i am on my own i like to have somthing i can lean the first side against i aslo put a small bit of tape near the top corner at the back this is used to hold the side and back in place until the silicon has grabbed.


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## soundstounite

the back is then offered up and held with the tape








as is the third side








Ithen leave this to dry off and come back and run silicon round all the joints later once the silicon has started to set i then move to the front of the viv which i will explain more of soon its now too too late and i need SLEEP seeya Stu


----------



## JackieL

I've just read this whole thread and have to say you have done an absolutely stunning job there, it's lovely to see the work done so professionally also. 

The plants all look fantastic.

Well done you, hell of a lot of hard work, but look at it!

Congratulations.


----------



## Jezza84

hey stu good work mate, hows things going?

Jezz


----------



## soundstounite

CSJ10 said:


> Wow! Awesome room and I love the rack and viv builds.


 thankyou csj getting there hellish frustrating though,want da frogs now,but more racking to sort first once the weather lets us


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## soundstounite

JackieL said:


> I've just read this whole thread and have to say you have done an absolutely stunning job there, it's lovely to see the work done so professionally also.
> 
> The plants all look fantastic.
> 
> Well done you, hell of a lot of hard work, but look at it!
> 
> Congratulations.


 Aww jackie thanks kiddo, its a long road though this way but you make a great point"look at it" i don't really let myself do that its just head down go for it:whip:, when this baby is sorted i will be able to do just that, and then the graft will be forgotten only i'll be looking at the frogs :lol2: ...thanks mate a reply like yours keeps one's head up Stu ps i better go glass cutting then he he


----------



## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> hey stu good work mate, hows things going?
> 
> Jezz


 Thanks bro,am ok buddy (more concearned with me darlin' as ya know) its a ruddy sod though i have to keep going to work and its getting in the way :lol2:, but i know know pretty much what has got to be done, i will explain in greater detail later. Been at it on the misting system yourself too, have you got it all figured yet? How are you mate? you and yours good?


----------



## soundstounite

Just before we start messing with the front,its always worth checking everything is pretty much square just after placing all the glass use your square frequently








Ok, here is the front,again i use me old template to mark out the placing of the front channel,making one of these is well worth the effort i find it stops me making QUITE so many mistakes,especially when one is handling glass and occupied with not breaking stuff. I always mark with one side of the template for accuracy,you might not have cut the perspex perfectly.
so here is the said template doing its job hopefully you can see the litte black dots on which the glass will sit


----------



## Jezza84

Hey stu, hope the mrs is ok, Misting system pretty much sorted can do a 10 nozzle misting system with everything needed for about £180 doesn't sound that cheap but the pump should be able to run about 30 nozzles. I tell you what when you start to add it all up individually it soon adds up. What i have worked out for is the pump, 25ltr Tank, Nozzle assembly's with bulk heads, all the fittings needed tubing etc and the reducers. Been doing lots of research on this lately


----------



## stewie m

amazing work looking fantastico


----------



## soundstounite

Digressing slightly a detail of the side glass sitting on the rebate hopefully this will make things a bit clearer








Now before tackling the front i always cut all the different bits of glass,so that they are ready as it can be a bit of a fiddle and one might need to move bits that are covered in silicon slightly to get the required finish.A small thing not to overlook is that the thin piece of glass at the very front under which air flows, wants to sit flush with the front of the viv, so the 3 supports need to be cut minus the thickness of the glass your using. Also a good idea to put a couple of bits of tape in place, which will hold this front bit in place until the silicon "grabs". i would have liked a couple more pics for ya, at this stage but kinda had me mitts full: victory:








Things to note are bits of tape ...square...and again only the edges of the glass are glued,so there is always silicon between each bit of glass,i can then come back next day to glue up all the joints properly,and as we are dealing with water this will HOPEFULLY prevent any leaks. Will continue this over the weekend, as i get time to complete this build after graft yours Stu


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## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> amazing work looking fantastico


 Cheers kiddo.:notworthy:


----------



## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> Hey stu, hope the mrs is ok, Misting system pretty much sorted can do a 10 nozzle misting system with everything needed for about £180 doesn't sound that cheap but the pump should be able to run about 30 nozzles. I tell you what when you start to add it all up individually it soon adds up. What i have worked out for is the pump, 25ltr Tank, Nozzle assembly's with bulk heads, all the fittings needed tubing etc and the reducers. Been doing lots of research on this lately


 Ruddy horrible mate they just can't seem to kill the pain,bugger ,anyway...... yeah i know youve been at it i think i might need a BIGGER pump soddin'hell,i presume a 50x50x40 needs 2 nozzles,would have thought so as its nearly the same as a 60x40x40...... and the wall with the 12 vivs will take 24...the rack already made 12 and i still have to factor in a small rack for the 40 cubes....yep bro it does add up does it not. Mate also meant to thank you for the kind words about the racks the other day:lol2:ha ha youve been inspiring us for a while mate nice to give a bit back....and you know whats comming HOW THE HELL ARE THOSE gorgeous frogs any joy with the Azzie's did the pums do anything else? Ha Ha mate this is funny as F:censor: Shaz's springs are messing with her bigstyle:lol2: so funny she opens up a tub and they all play dead ...nothing moves... she even stirs em round .she puts the top back and starts moaning "what have i done wrong" ten minutes later the little sods have all miraculously come back to life and hidden so so funny,ah man would love to know how the hell they do that...:lol2: proper syncronisation ha ha


----------



## Morgan Freeman

any full room shots????? PLEASE


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> any full room shots????? PLEASE


 Not yet mate still have the other racks to build(honestly kiddo not much more for you to see that you haven't seen already ) but when i am done ......OF BLOODY COURSE MATE or better still you'll have to come and see..... you is always welcome here init...but mate you know how slow i am ...but also know it will happen...just time...always time.... and I'm getting OLDER/slower............. Shaz wants to know are you as grumpy as your avatar looks? (I already know the answer to that, but, shall be, let us say, diplomatic:whistling2 Nono Frogo


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Ha you crack me up


----------



## Jezza84

All quiet on the azzie side at the moment. And the pums are very quiet (they are up to somthing) One of my Vent tads has just popped its front legs though. what pump are you looking at then stu? 100 nozzle version?


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Ha you crack me up


 as you do us kiddo :lol2: so not that grumpy then:2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> All quiet on the azzie side at the moment. And the pums are very quiet (they are up to somthing) One of my Vent tads has just popped its front legs though. what pump are you looking at then stu? 100 nozzle version?


 Ye gads mate i hope not....... am guessing about 35 40 nozzels...and what is your little vent gonna morph in then got a pic for me?


----------



## Jezza84

not going to be anything special just got a crix tub with a bit of water and moss in tilted slightly so there is water one end and land area the other end will take a photo if you want to see it not all that exciting though lol

You looking along the lines of an ENT pump 7 lpm says it will service up to 35 nozzles. I have found a pump along the same lines that says it does 7 lpm and 100 psi for about £60


----------



## richie.b

getting there slowly Stu, any idea when youre going to get the first frogs or are you going to wait untill the frogroom is totally finished. Must say youve got more patience than me ide have the finished vivs full by now. Saying that ive still got 6 empty ones but have got 7 with darts in now, plus reft, orange legged treefrogs, clown treefrogs loads of yellow bellied toads and some pool frogs which will all be going outside next year, oh and some marbled newts which i couldnt resist at the show.
Dont like the frogroom in the bedroom much prefer the old frogroom outside which used to have 70 vivs, i can see me moving back out there in the spring :whistling2:


----------



## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> not going to be anything special just got a crix tub with a bit of water and moss in tilted slightly so there is water one end and land area the other end will take a photo if you want to see it not all that exciting though lol
> 
> You looking along the lines of an ENT pump 7 lpm says it will service up to 35 nozzles. I have found a pump along the same lines that says it does 7 lpm and 100 psi for about £60


 Ha ha yeah buddy we would love a pic if its not too much trouble, he he it would be great to have a FROG pic on this thread:lol2: think you pm'd me about the pump,we will speak more about this soon, otherwise i'll forget everything:lol2:


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## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> getting there slowly Stu, any idea when youre going to get the first frogs or are you going to wait untill the frogroom is totally finished. Must say youve got more patience than me ide have the finished vivs full by now. Saying that ive still got 6 empty ones but have got 7 with darts in now, plus reft, orange legged treefrogs, clown treefrogs loads of yellow bellied toads and some pool frogs which will all be going outside next year, oh and some marbled newts which i couldnt resist at the show.
> Dont like the frogroom in the bedroom much prefer the old frogroom outside which used to have 70 vivs, i can see me moving back out there in the spring :whistling2:


 ha ha :lol2: your some boy.....70 vivs...WOW:gasp:,mate you don't half move fast,you'll probably have that set up too before i get there,oh man i am so slow .Ofcourse the massive difference is you kiddo know what your doing ,whereas i have to appraise everything and think realhard on which move to make next. Our plan is to finish all the racking,and then get da frogs,though things have been messing with me of late and slowing progress somewhat including the weather i have to build the racking outside which of course is less than ideal. also using the old glass is hugely time consuming as it all needs washing then drying before i can start cutting. Hey buddy you could give us some advice...our room is pretty much there as far as temp goes but the humidity is well low we spray regularly at least 4 times a day probably more but our gizmo says the R. humidity is maxing at around 60% so i any ideas and 2 is there such a thing as a mulitprobe meter,or do you have mulitple meters? The strange thing for me is that the plants are arial rooting evenmoreso than when they were in their propergators,which says to me they are getting what they want,some that have never put out airroots are know doing so,....any ideas? and of course thanks mate Stu


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> ha ha :lol2: your some boy.....70 vivs...WOW:gasp:,mate you don't half move fast,you'll probably have that set up too before i get there,oh man i am so slow .Ofcourse the massive difference is you kiddo know what your doing ,whereas i have to appraise everything and think realhard on which move to make next. Our plan is to finish all the racking,and then get da frogs,though things have been messing with me of late and slowing progress somewhat including the weather i have to build the racking outside which of course is less than ideal. also using the old glass is hugely time consuming as it all needs washing then drying before i can start cutting. Hey buddy you could give us some advice...our room is pretty much there as far as temp goes but the humidity is well low we spray regularly at least 4 times a day probably more but our gizmo says the R. humidity is maxing at around 60% so i any ideas and 2 is there such a thing as a mulitprobe meter,or do you have mulitple meters? The strange thing for me is that the plants are arial rooting evenmoreso than when they were in their propergators,which says to me they are getting what they want,some that have never put out airroots are know doing so,....any ideas? and of course thanks mate Stu


nar the 70 vivs was when i had frogsgalore so needed a lot of vivs for stock which was for sale, as for knowing what im doing who told you that :lol2: your doing a great job Stu and going about it the right way, just think it would be nice to get a couple of frogs in for you and the wife to make it all worth the last big effort.
Ive always heated the room i find it a lot easier with a large amount of vivs, but humidity is down to each viv you dont want to get high humidity in the room as it will just get damp and go black and mouldy, dont worry about every viv having a humidity meter if the glass is wet the humidity is high enough, you will soon learn when its to dry. 
Ariel roots are good most of my neo broms put out arial roots as do all the ficus, so thats a good sign that its not to dry also. I mist for 3minutes every day with my misting system and also hand mist some parts of the vivs that dry out quicker :2thumb:


----------



## Jezza84

here you go stu really simple









its just tilted slightly so deeper on end and a sort of land area the other


----------



## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> here you go stu really simple
> image
> 
> its just tilted slightly so deeper on end and a sort of land area the other


 Aww shucks...thanks dude so kind...he he love the little fella:flrt:,nice to see a froggy on this thread ha ha about bloody time(even if it ain't mine) how many have you got jez?..... Richie comming couple of mates dropped in need to read what ya said ha lost me thread...doh.


----------



## Jezza84

Hey stu i bought four tads from tucker over in newquay, this is the most advanced one


----------



## soundstounite

Richie :lol2:you made me think you know what your about dude (course you could be blagging :Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2: but i've thrown masses of Qs at ya and the answers always make sense,thanks dude:notworthy:.he he ....here are acouple more when you say you spray for 3 mins with the misting system presumably not all at once ...short bursts several times aday? Totally understand the spotmisting. I must say mate that this humidity thing is really messing with me,of course i MUST sort the racks before frogs but other than that we are ready to go with the big viv ( the other 40's have to move racks) all food etc is ready (in fact if Shaz breeds any more ffs we might cause a national shortage of readybreak:gasp. ofcourse my eyes are telling me one thing and the meter something else and its a good one (ha ha i believe) but its that old chestnut of experiance,funny init when i messed with phibs as a kid none of this was available,. The headache for me is that the humidity reading is SO much lower than everything i have read,but we have all the signs in place that you refer to,its a mystery. ha and i hear what your saying about getting a couple of frogs for inspiration, though it shouldn't be that far away now (man i nearly took your arm off thinking that (just a couple won't hurt) over those B.G.auratus and that was about feb when you had to sell up was it not :lol2: so near but yet so far:lol2: thanks ....Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> Hey stu i bought four tads from tucker over in newquay, this is the most advanced one


 Erm :blush::blush::blush: i know(but not how many) ha ha i don't miss nuffin mate, its just cause of me age i forget stuff:lol2:...bugger in it ....how far are the others behind, looks like a very happy little chap...what are they going in after they have all morphed out? matey cheers for all the 'elp S


----------



## Jezza84

Lost you stu out of the 4 this is the most advanced i have 2 others with back legs just starting to show and the other still only a tadpole
a bit of a closer pic of this little one


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## soundstounite

Sorry mate i can be a bit criptic can't i ,when they have all morphed in the little tub what will their next home be ...are they to go straight in a 40 cube or are you putting them in some other new home, oh and thanks for the second pic so cool Stu


----------



## Jezza84

Hey stu, Will use something smaller than a viv, something along the lines of an ice cream container or something.


----------



## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> Hey stu, Will use something smaller than a viv, something along the lines of an ice cream container or something.


 Gotcha...couple of little vents in the top?....and what about lights mate,whats the plan to get round that,will you just keep the container near to the rack where it gets some light through the vivs as it were. thanks kiddo.


----------



## Jezza84

Ive got a 3ft reptiglow uvb tube setup in the other room sits above all my tads/ froglets rearing containers. well just using my chameleons old viv its huge 4'x2'x3' and just got everthing in there will take a picture tomorrow for you stu


----------



## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> Ive got a 3ft reptiglow uvb tube setup in the other room sits above all my tads/ froglets rearing containers. well just using my chameleons old viv its huge 4'x2'x3' and just got everthing in there will take a picture tomorrow for you stu


 Thanks mate sorry didn't reply yesterday needed sleep....3 nights over 1 (musicians do it in the dark:lol2 plus work and frogroom stuff ha ha crackered would love more pics Stu


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## Ron Magpie

But where are the frogs, Stu????


Oh, this could run and run! But actually, having seen some of your plants, I can't wait to see the planted up tanks. Forget sleep, mate, you have to finish!:lol2:


----------



## Jezza84

Here you go stu its nothing special 
















bit extreme but the viv was there so i used it lol also makes a good indoor green house


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## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Richie :lol2:you made me think you know what your about dude (course you could be blagging :Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2: but i've thrown masses of Qs at ya and the answers always make sense,thanks dude:notworthy:.he he ....here are acouple more when you say you spray for 3 mins with the misting system presumably not all at once ...short bursts several times aday? Totally understand the spotmisting. I must say mate that this humidity thing is really messing with me,of course i MUST sort the racks before frogs but other than that we are ready to go with the big viv ( the other 40's have to move racks) all food etc is ready (in fact if Shaz breeds any more ffs we might cause a national shortage of readybreak:gasp. ofcourse my eyes are telling me one thing and the meter something else and its a good one (ha ha i believe) but its that old chestnut of experiance,funny init when i messed with phibs as a kid none of this was available,. The headache for me is that the humidity reading is SO much lower than everything i have read,but we have all the signs in place that you refer to,its a mystery. ha and i hear what your saying about getting a couple of frogs for inspiration, though it shouldn't be that far away now (man i nearly took your arm off thinking that (just a couple won't hurt) over those B.G.auratus and that was about feb when you had to sell up was it not :lol2: so near but yet so far:lol2: thanks ....Stu


Yer thats 3 minutes over a day not all in one go, the bronze giant were nice heres a picture for you and the wife of one of them


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## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> But where are the frogs, Stu????
> 
> 
> Oh, this could run and run! But actually, having seen some of your plants, I can't wait to see the planted up tanks. Forget sleep, mate, you have to finish!:lol2:


 Yep buddy it WILL run and run, so goddamnit you'll have to be patient:Na_Na_Na_Na: :lol2: though to me credit cut 56x 51.00 mm and 34x46.00mm for the next rack (bugger ranout of light need 35) peices of Ali today after work was working with saftey glasses too when i couldn't see jack sh*T (glasses are shades) for the next rack ha ha so it ain't for lack of trying. and all cuts within 1mm OORRAA...oh and Ron the frogs are in me back pocket....just aint telling you guys 'cause you'll ROB em.....I've read about this....nono frogo Stu


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Yer thats 3 minutes over a day not all in one go, the bronze giant were nice heres a picture for you and the wife of one of them
> image


 Thanks mate your always gonna make me/us hungry....oh an .......She's not me Wife:blush::blush::blush::blush::blush::blush::blush: we just haven't had time for that stuff(only been together 27 years: victory: since i was 19 i just love her:flrt::flrt::flrt::flrt::flrt Stu


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Thanks mate your always gonna make me/us hungry....oh an .......She's not me Wife:blush::blush::blush::blush::blush::blush::blush: we just haven't had time for that stuff(only been together 27 years: victory: since i was 19 i just love her:flrt::flrt::flrt::flrt::flrt Stu


never mind buddy its only a bit of paper, as long as your happy thats all that matters. Mind you you could be so much happier with frogs and you wouldnt get half as much stick especially now mindys got some :gasp:


----------



## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> Here you go stu its nothing special
> image
> image
> bit extreme but the viv was there so i used it lol also makes a good indoor green house


 Thanks mate,thing is Jez all the time i am thinking, so everyones mad little ideas, are thought on, with all i got....so even when it dosen't seem that much its still a biggy. Maybe put better this way, we all have to improvise,and all have to go in slightly different ways to use what is available as very few of us are loaded(dosh wise),so every improvised way is of help to someone like me...does that make sense?...wish i was ELOQUENT Stu


----------



## Jezza84

got you mate I have never got any money always robbin some from some where to pay somthin else lol


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> never mind buddy its only a bit of paper, as long as your happy thats all that matters. Mind you you could be so much happier with frogs and you wouldnt get half as much stick especially now mindys got some :gasp:


:lol2:yeah man don't need no bits a paper I am whom i say i am...he he don't worry about the stick its just so much fun:lol2: i think its great that i can get knowledge and have a ruddy great crack at the same time...wonderfull(oh and of course so so so want the frogs but i know where were going just need more hours in a day, always said i am a tortoise...hmmm hare never won though did it he he...ha and Mindy rocks ...just don't let him hear that ...he'll come over all opinionated on me:notworthy:


----------



## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> got you mate I have never got any money always robbin some from some where to pay somthin else lol


 YEP thats the one:no1::2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

So as promised here we go next day all joints siliconed up and ready to add mesh








a little thing but also a biggy if you have every learned the hard way and had a bit of metal embedded on to your eyeball,when you cut your mesh put some safety glasses on ,it seems silly but this mesh can chuck bits at you cut the bit of mesh to size and silicon into place ...top edges are siliconed mesh placed on top we often place something on top and leave overnight the flip side is that you might need to clamp your plastic strips in place because of the silicon at the sides as we did here








So now its pretty much wait for 4 days untill water testing, we are using silirub AQ as previously stated which according to the manufacturers takes this long. to cure..as i am working outside in november i will wait , and of course I have other things on the go so the vivs are being slotted around the next rack.
The viv you have been watching is a 50x50x40high it is a template (just to be sure) for our next rack which finally after much head scratching i have started to build today,it will be a bit of a monster in that it will hold 12 vivs, 10 as above and 2 50x50x60high, maybe oneday to hold my personal dream frogs ...histo/sylvatica....maybe ONEDAY just maybe,so today we started the mammoth task of sorting that,56 cuts at 51.5cm (front cross members) and 35 cuts at 46cm which are the front to back cross members,which added to the front 2.5cm and back...2.5cm give 51cm,this is 1cm over the viv depth so i have got a bit of leeway to put a couple of diagonal braces in because i am a little concearned about the quality of the connectors and i know for years of making stuff that this wiil sort this problem. 12 of these glass vivs is going to be one hell of a weight so best not take any chances .
We will also build a very much smaller rack when this is completed only 40 deep but i will wait untill this second rack is done to see exactly what length i have to play with,though i have a good idea it will be betwixt 80cm and120 long ,probably 1m ha ha, this will also have aboureal (spelling?) vivs at the top....pum pum pumpum loverly pums(sorry its been a good night).
I will try and get a working drawing up soon at the mo am being a cocky git and doing it out of me bonce but it is a ruddy good idea to have a drawing to work from so one can check everything.....YOURS Stu


----------



## soundstounite

so here's without clamps








Sand off all sharp edges now using an oilstone,and don't forget the front of the false floor a bit safer for the frogs if this is sorted...go carefull wear gloves
















Ha ha all day today while cutting glass /ali this little guy was acting as management...here overseeing glass work so cool
















Iknow its meant to be frogs but rob is just so much fun got stuffed he did today feasting on beanweavils ha ha.


----------



## soundstounite

So as i have already stated the second rack is underway here Shaz's drawing which i am working from, 50x50x40high,top left 50x50x60high








Moss has been talked about alot lately so thought it would be nice for a few minutes to not be doing building frogroom stuff and have a look at our big (60x60x60) mossey viv ha ha i guess its been planted about 5 weeks now.


----------



## soundstounite

We have also used some epiweb moss which is starting to do something maybe you can see ...anyhow some more








































Tonight after i put the camera to loading this, we tried a theory i have, we put some native moss in the vivs but before placing we sprinkled epiwebmoss mix over the top...if the natives die they will at least provide a micro climate for the tropical mosses to get going,and maybe some nutrients.. .i will let you know how it works out though this will take a few months...seeya Stu


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## FrogNick

looking really good another 6 months and I will be round for cuttings!


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> looking really good another 6 months and I will be round for cuttings!


Thanks mate long time no speak...you good? ha ha your welcome kiddo your frogs good too?


----------



## sambridge15

what lighting you using for your tanks im sure you have said before but i cba with all these pages :lol2:....some1 really should make an idiots guide to growing moss seems very few people have the nack


----------



## soundstounite

sambridge15 said:


> what lighting you using for your tanks im sure you have said before but i cba with all these pages :lol2:....some1 really should make an idiots guide to growing moss seems very few people have the nack


 Sorry mate (so many pages) lot of stuff, i'm using ent/dartfrog t5s 6500 kelvin, early days with the moss yet mate though swearing at it seems to work :gasp:,hmmm does with all our plants :lol2:.No seriously Sam i think the key is not letting it dryout, but mate its way to early to tell or for me to tell you that,i think what Richie said the other day about spot misting even if using an auto/misting system carries great weight,these two things are what is making us try this mix of native and epiweb, once the stuff gets going i hope it will be fine i am guessing most os the problems happen early on in the mosses life


----------



## brysaa2

Damn fine looking dart tank dude :2thumb:


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## Ron Magpie

That's great- and you are possibly the only one on here getting that moss mix to grow:2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

brysaa2 said:


> Damn fine looking dart tank dude :2thumb:


 Thanks kiddo,erm more on the way:blush:. We have 2 50's watertested and another like above 60 cube very nearly there, glass cut for 2 more 50's 2 60x60x40 and one 50x50x60 but i can't stick them together yet no space ...so frustrating....think we also finished cutting ali for the second rack today, mitres on thursday pm then riviting for a rummin year there are bloody thousands of em ...'MARE..........vivs when its wet....rack when its dry...plus 6days o work a week...bosh bosh bosh ....only in slow mode ha ha


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> That's great- and you are possibly the only one on here getting that moss mix to grow:2thumb:


 Thanks buddy....maybe others don't talk to it right, as i said you gotta talk dirty to it: victory: ...its moss, hmmmmmmm... not the only one Morg had some on the way but it dried out, its real early days though mate. Because we have been pretty much organic here for so long,we get all kinds of mosses and ferns appearing in the pots that have been outside some of which you have been looking at, whether they will keep going in the dart vivs is guess work but forsure we will find out


----------



## richie.b

bloody lovely looking viv that Stu, cant wait to see the rest when complete : victory:


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> bloody lovely looking viv that Stu, cant wait to see the rest when complete : victory:


 THANKYOU mate well i'm on it :2thumb: hope you read this mate this rack is very tall 60 top 40 middle 60 bottom(heights) so there is a degree of temp.variation over the rack,vertically, so with thecaveat of the midd viv not having the same height which frogs would be most suited to which viv from these:leucs....auratus (elcope Bronz G.) misties... orange galac...and poss red...not sure exactly yet which frogs but this is close erm ish:lol2:


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> THANKYOU mate well i'm on it :2thumb: hope you read this mate this rack is very tall 60 top 40 middle 60 bottom(heights) so there is a degree of temp.variation over the rack,vertically, so with thecaveat of the midd viv not having the same height which frogs would be most suited to which viv from these:leucs....auratus (elcope Bronz G.) misties... orange galac...and poss red...not sure exactly yet which frogs but this is close erm ish:lol2:


if your heating the room there shouldnt be that much temperature variation especially through the day if the vivs are all using the same lights so giving off the same heat, the top vivs might get a bit warmer as you know heat rising and all that.
most darts live withing a temp range of 24-28. luecs, galacs and auratus will take a slightly warmer temp say up to 28, tincs up to about 27 and pumilio up to 30.
with my setup i tend to keep pumilio on the top shelf where its slightly warmer and less disturbence, other than that i keep most other darts on any shelf, hope this is what you meant buddy :blush:


----------



## soundstounite

yes mate that is exactly what i meant,although i thought there might be a greater degree of temperature gradient from bottom to top (as ya say heat rising) though of course i can't measure till the vivs are in and i was musing on the idea of trying to tailor the vivs a little bit to the frogs. What about misties Rich what temp for them? yes we are heating the room its running betwixt 21-29 at the mo nearly there mate.Sorry about the criptic nature of the Q. mate ...its my fault i seem to be doing it alot lately (Always struggled with english :blush:and letters:blush:,but sod it i can do some other things:bash:...erm well sometimes:lol2 thanks kiddo, one last thing which of the above species climbs the least? cheers dude Stu


----------



## FrogNick

soundstounite said:


> Thanks mate long time no speak...you good? ha ha your welcome kiddo your frogs good too?


 Yeah frogs doing well few more calling now. How many viv are you planning to build into total? 

For myself I'm going to limit it to 10 vivs as keeping up with food requirments is a realy pain when you have lots of frogs!


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> yes mate that is exactly what i meant,although i thought there might be a greater degree of temperature gradient from bottom to top (as ya say heat rising) though of course i can't measure till the vivs are in and i was musing on the idea of trying to tailor the vivs a little bit to the frogs. What about misties Rich what temp for them? yes we are heating the room its running betwixt 21-29 at the mo nearly there mate.Sorry about the criptic nature of the Q. mate ...its my fault i seem to be doing it alot lately (Always struggled with english :blush:and letters:blush:,but sod it i can do some other things:bash:...erm well sometimes:lol2 thanks kiddo, one last thing which of the above species climbs the least? cheers dude Stu


to be honest Stu ive never had problems with massive temperature variations in my frogrooms, what you do have to watch is if youve got an air temp of say 25 the temp in the vivs will be higher in the day due to lighting its suprising how much the lights heat up the room when youve got a few on. mysties i always kept the same as luecs etc so between 25-28 is fine, cant really give you an answer to the degree because the temp varied a bit in summer and winter without causing the frogs any problems.
most of the darts will use the height in the vivs 60 high is not really that high even to ground dwellers like terribilis they will still climb that high, of course pumilio are your ultimate dart for heights climbing 200ft trees in the wild just to put there tadpole in a brom :gasp: but like i said in my experience all the frogs you mentioned will climb to viv heights


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> Yeah frogs doing well few more calling now. How many viv are you planning to build into total?
> 
> For myself I'm going to limit it to 10 vivs as keeping up with food requirments is a realy pain when you have lots of frogs!


 Well these2 racks will give us 18 Nick and there will be a very small rack too,though i will finalise that once i can see exactly what space we have left upon completion of this rack build though i am thinking along the lines of an 80x40 foot print.With respect to the food: yes mate if i was doing this on my own it wood be a headache( we already have around 40 cultures of ffs half a dozon trop woods and am reckon 16 of springs which me darling informs me are fit to burst, so could be doubled soon,and 3 very large been weavil cultures which also need dividing. And in that statement lies the answer,Shaz. At present mate she has some horribe form of athritis,which gives her loads of stick,as you already know i am obsessed with these darts and so is she, actually this room is very much for her and she is a very active and determined lady ....she hasn't been able to work for oh man 20 months (though goddammit shes has tried ,she hates not beina able to do do do all the time) now so this project is very much for her and she will look after the day to day running of the frogs (which is a good part of why this is sort of back to front,and so large,.... she needs lots to do...ha ha and its my intention to give her just that:lol2 Of course all duties are light(no heavy lifting ) and she will be warm (he he well bloody hot) while doing them, which should be good for her condition,she suffers so much with cold. 
Ha ha glad to hear your frogs kiddlets have started calling.... facsinating hobby ....so so so so much to learn Stu.


----------



## kat86

Looking good!! Loving the nosey Robin!!!

What sort of plants you got there & were did you get them & cost?


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## soundstounite

Richie......what you have just said pretty much backs up what i was thinking and my observations of other peoples frogs...as you say 60 cm is nothing,and yep am aware of what you are saying about the Pums...amazing is it not? Have read that the tincs are found up to 2m ,which, of course we would think of in viv terms as aboureal, the only frogs i have never seen climb much are the azzies ...but i bet they df course doing so much research without being able to back it up with actual observation is so frustrating,but we both know that this will come. Mate i have said this many times, but your help and input has been so valuable to me /us,its great to run my thoughts against someone how has got the t shirt:notworthy: cheers Dude Stu:no1: Must dash gotta make a noise he he


----------



## soundstounite

kat86 said:


> Looking good!! Loving the nosey Robin!!!
> 
> What sort of plants you got there & were did you get them & cost?


 Eh up Kat, mate i will answer you soon gotta dash,most from dartfrog but all over really,though anly bought 1 of each been at it breeding plants for 18 months are you talking about whats in the vivs ? yeah i have a massive love of that bird it was sat on my chop saw yester day the minute i stopped cutting landed by me nose while i was measuring, scared the living daylights out of me ..thanks for the kindness Stu


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## soundstounite

Kat,plants at the bottom (variagated) are fittonia, there is a saliginella kraussiana on the right all around £3/4.......2 Ficus pumilla sonny on the left (white edges to the leaves)...same kind of price. Various broms though all are Neoregellia £7/15 Two orchids(both £11.99only bought plants i think) bulbophyllum nymphopolitanum,left (which i divided into 3) and Cerastilis rubra on the right (both at the front top). Back top right merhaxia(wire vine) next to it a ficus from columbia(£6/7) i think and another sunny,ha bet i've missed something hope that helps ,and you already know about the mosses Stu


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## ilovetoads2

That looks really good...well done you.:no1:


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## soundstounite

ilovetoads2 said:


> That looks really good...well done you.:no1:


 Thankyou kiddo ...means so so much comming from you,:notworthy:, if i could send my little Robin up to you, i would, so much joy, anything ya need mate just shout Stu(probably have to be pretty loud though as your some ways from here:whistling2::lol2. Get well soon...love Stu and Shaz


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## Jezza84

Hey Stu have you got links for where you got your ali etc from?

Jezz


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## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> Hey Stu have you got links for where you got your ali etc from?
> 
> Jezz


 Ha ha its a biggy asking me for a link on this thing mate but i'll try me best for ya www.aliminiumwarehouse.co.uk Bloody hell:gasp: it went blue on its own...mate you want easifix look for the anodised stuff, nearly got the second sorted ha ha but I've just done way too much in the last 3 days proper at it,and i missed 2 poxy 12cm cuts so can't put it together am bloody shattered


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## soundstounite

Oh and Jezz remember what i said about the height building up watch it mate:lol2: this is my shorter rack....erm i just stood beside it it must be 6'6":gasp:


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## Jezza84

cheers for the that stu been looking on that bloody dutch rana site again :gasp:
When i get in to the new place am going to it properly lol


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## soundstounite

OOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRAAAAAAAAA done and dusted,nearly 300:bash::bash: rivits.....more ali than ya can shake a stick at........... one totally F:censor:ed old dude....... and one bloody great big rack,covering a whole wall,with a couple of spaces for me dream frosch, totally shattered nearly 50 hours in 4 days:mf_dribble:, and ruddy hell still NO FROGS....ha ha here ya go , am stoked....RUDDY STOKED......OOOOOORRRRRAAAA
















and Jezza mate this is what yours will look like soon, I know i gotta fill it in but right now i don't have to cut ali for a while YIPPPPEEEEEEE:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## jme2049

That will look sweet once its full of lovely planted viv's and darts. 
Looking forward to it.:2thumb:


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## stewie m

loving that racking


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## soundstounite

jme2049 said:


> That will look sweet once its full of lovely planted viv's and darts.
> Looking forward to it.:2thumb:


 thanks mate ha ha so are we,but don't hold your breath,these things take time,but for sure ONEDAY they will be full...oneday...got to sort the first one soon though or we will go nuts:lol2:,bloody work keeps getting in the way of our hobby its no good


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## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> loving that racking


 thanks dude but its only metal...need frogs ....need frogs....NEED FROGS:lol2:


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## Morgan Freeman

Niiiiiiicce racking.

Now, do I reconsider my wire shelving for this?


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## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Niiiiiiicce racking.
> 
> Now, do I reconsider my wire shelving for this?


 yep if your one stubborn mother f:censor: with no brain and no sense, and you really want to do justice to those amazing vivs/frogs, ha the mad thing is all this work is about something that eventually wont be noticed because it will show the viv/frogs at their best,so one wont look at it ha ha,or hopefully be blinded by light not comming through the viv,well mate we'll see,go for it(but not without good tools because it will kill ya).


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## Alex M

I never thought i'd say this to a man... but....






Stuey, you've got an absolutely cracking rack.






(Very good mate, this is going to look fantastic when it's finished ). Cheers, Al


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## Morgan Freeman

soundstounite said:


> yep if your one stubborn mother f:censor: with no brain and no sense, and you really want to do justice to those amazing vivs/frogs, ha the mad thing is all this work is about something that eventually wont be noticed because it will show the viv/frogs at their best,so one wont look at it ha ha,or hopefully be blinded by light not comming through the viv,well mate we'll see,go for it(but not without good tools because it will kill ya).


Hmmzz.....most of my vivs arent ENT style so prob wouldn't work as they're top opening....


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## Jezza84

where do live exactly stu? and when will the house be empty days times? lol


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## soundstounite

Alex M said:


> I never thought i'd say this to a man... but....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stuey, you've got an absolutely cracking rack.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Very good mate, this is going to look fantastic when it's finished ). Cheers, Al


 oh man thats just wrong on so many levels,:lol2:.....Erm I HAVE 2....I repeat TWO:lol2: cracking racks.....THANKYOU dude....THANKYOU


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## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Hmmzz.....most of my vivs arent ENT style so prob wouldn't work as they're top opening....


Hmmmm, now that will take some brain work to make that work, mate if i can think of a way round that conundrum i will give ya a shout


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## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> where do live exactly stu? and when will the house be empty days times? lol


 I will give you these details when i am ready to releive you kiddo, of well pretty much everything, just let me get a van sorted, oh an Shaz has just chained herself to it,so i suspect after you visit,no one will be hitting me and asking ...."WHERE THE HELL ARE MY FROGGIES?" cause you'll have nicked me racks and me missus:gasp::gasp::gasp::gasp::lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## richie.b

excellent work again Stu, if that one holds 12 how many does the other one hold and is that all the racking your making now, cant wait to see what darts you get to fill them :2thumb:


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## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> excellent work again Stu, if that one holds 12 how many does the other one hold and is that all the racking your making now, cant wait to see what darts you get to fill them :2thumb:


 THANKS BRO, ....first 6 ( 60x60 bases) this second 12 3rd and last if i have got everything right will be a 85cm by 41cm footprint 3 tiers high....again 6 vivs, bottom 4x 40 cubes for kiddies and maybe a couple of thumbs....top 2 60 high,def thumbs......ha ha i need Shaz to jump too see the top vivs...its more fun:lol2 she's vertically challenged). Seriously Rich i am still trying to work out how to max the space, as efficiently as possible,both for the frogs and us to look out for 'em, he he at the mo the frogs are doing allright for floor space(well i am guessing that is as it should be, they will spend their lives in these glass boxs), of course the tad rearing...froglets...are totally an unknown to us so its massively difficult for us /me to calculate, ha ha ...first we have to keep the frogs to breeding age...then...get them to breed....then hatch,rear tads, then keep the froglets alive god knows how one can factor in all these parameters, what we do know is we wont just fill everything we will slowly get what we are after and TRY to give em the best that we can, and then hope we dont have to move out:lol2: if it all falls right! The realality is that we both have a while spent with livestoke and we both know some years one breed/species/morph will go nuts and the next year they do nothing,difficult to assess, especially when one is a beginner,as we are,so our modus operandi is setup...frogs...breed...HELP:2thumb::lol2:


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## richie.b

well got to be said Stu you got some bloody patience :notworthy:ide be climbing the walls by now, as for utilising the space thats the best way, because this time next year buddy you will be looking for more viv space, trust me i know :whistling2:. You might want to leave one of the next shelves at the full 85cm and have a large terribilis viv on it bloody lovely i can tell you :2thumb:. Also dont forget to leave space for fishtanks for tadpoles, i use the polystyrene with cups floating in it system so much easier and better than having lots of little cups with tadpoles in hanging around. 
So i guess you and Shaz will just be ready in time for a trip to hamm in march then is it:mf_dribble:


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## SkinheadOi85

Hi Stu...im not a phib man at all but do find them interesting, and i love looking at the self build threads for inspiration....Ive read all this thread in one night and got to say fantastic build and vivs also doing the plants yourself thats dedication dude!!! Well done on such a professional racking system and photo blog.

Brilliant


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> well got to be said Stu you got some bloody patience :notworthy:ide be climbing the walls by now, as for utilising the space thats the best way, because this time next year buddy you will be looking for more viv space, trust me i know :whistling2:. You might want to leave one of the next shelves at the full 85cm and have a large terribilis viv on it bloody lovely i can tell you :2thumb:. Also dont forget to leave space for fishtanks for tadpoles, i use the polystyrene with cups floating in it system so much easier and better than having lots of little cups with tadpoles in hanging around.
> So i guess you and Shaz will just be ready in time for a trip to hamm in march then is it:mf_dribble:


 yeah mate people tell me I'm patient....but to be fair WE ARE CLIMBING the walls :lol2:, would love hamm:mf_dribble::mf_dribble:, though will have to see what life throws at us. On the subject of tads,do you use a similar system as to what frognick posted,sounds like it? Don't really want to do the cup changing thang either,bit to much to ask of Shaz and am sure there are much better options, but as i eluded too i have time to think on this dilema,step one is get some frogs....once the room is sorted...and keep them happy:whistling2: .


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## soundstounite

SkinheadOi85 said:


> Hi Stu...im not a phib man at all but do find them interesting, and i love looking at the self build threads for inspiration....Ive read all this thread in one night and got to say fantastic build and vivs also doing the plants yourself thats dedication dude!!! Well done on such a professional racking system and photo blog.
> 
> Brilliant


 WOW thankyou mr skinheadOi85, SIR whats your name it took me eons to type that right:2thumb: mate, honestly plants and all,are about saving a buck, right down to the glass,also of course there are a miriad of other benefits eco wise ...not bringing anything horrid here etc etc, but the biggy for me will be that little kid who reads this and says,"dad will ya 'elp me we can do that" ok maybe the racking will come later but mate you know what I'm saying I was that little kid,and there wasn't all these nutters whom love phibs/reps to have a crack with and learn from,so trying in me own silly way to give a bit back,and man HAVE THEY TRIED TO HELP US, so cool:notworthy::notworthy: Stu


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## SkinheadOi85

Hey Stu, the names Pete.

As for the "dad can we do that" im 25 and see these kind of threads and it makes me say to the (very understanding missus) "hun you know ive just paid for all the kitchen to be re done which is pink and the downstairs loo also pink and the nic nacks,,,,do you think that spare room upstairs could have something like that in it!!!"


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## soundstounite

SkinheadOi85 said:


> Hey Stu, the names Pete.
> 
> As for the "dad can we do that" im 25 and see these kind of threads and it makes me say to the (very understanding missus) "hun you know ive just paid for all the kitchen to be re done which is pink and the downstairs loo also pink and the nic nacks,,,,do you think that spare room upstairs could have something like that in it!!!"


Ha ha,Hi Pete, oh mate you made us laugh:2thumb:, so what are you into mate ...what do you keep?Oh and i suppose the spare room is gonna be for the taking eh?...but not ...erm PINK....noth:gasp:ing against pink but ya know


----------



## SkinheadOi85

I currently keep two axylotls and a few tropical fish,,,then have a g.rosea trantula, male bearded dragon, breeding pair of corns, baby corn, 2 year old corn, adult lavender albino kingsnake, female adult (9ft ish) common boa, olive millipedes, female leopard gecko, female berber skink and one very understading lady!!!

the spare room is definatly going to be racked up and one section dedicated to growth of my invert obsession and a possible space for a few phibs..i like retf`s and pioson darts.

thinkin also of a rub rack for breeding groups if cash flow allows. the room is mainly going to be for what I have now with added extra 

It wont be pink god noooo anything but pink.

so what are you keeping Stu?


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## soundstounite

wow mate it seems like you might need 2 spare rooms, some collection,that really is. No Pete we don't have anything at the mo other than a handfull of call ducks(one of which has an identity crisis(thinks she's a cat) and is sat on the chair fast asleep on Shaz's lap, funny as F:censor:, though i guess we might have a couple of darts in a while.


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## SkinheadOi85

Thats only a small fraction of what i would like Stu, dont know if you know your trantulas but i love the brachyphelma genus and there is 10plus of them the avic genus and really fancy a goliath bird eater as a big display piece.

then theres all the snakes haha. 

I swear herpotoglism is a addiction....Amy (the other half) call it my herion!!!

Aw I want ducks when I move to the farm!


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## soundstounite

' ELLO DON:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Ron Magpie

Pete, once you get into frogs, it'll only increase, just warning you...:whistling2:

Pink heroin loses out in comparison, trust me!:lol2:


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## soundstounite

No sorry Pete i really don't know me spiders but do know that the other guy talks alot of sense, ( will qualify that with still not sure about the pink) WE think you might need 3 rooms


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## SkinheadOi85

3 rooms hmmmmmm trantula and invert room, 2nd room snakes n lizards 3rd room phibs hmmm n that pink herion is dreadfully addictive if your a woman it seems!!!!


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## soundstounite

SkinheadOi85 said:


> 3 rooms hmmmmmm trantula and invert room, 2nd room snakes n lizards 3rd room phibs hmmm n that pink herion is dreadfully addictive if your a woman it seems!!!!


 :lol2::lol2::lol2:,ha ha mine is screaming I HATE PINK, mate we wish you all the best with your new room but ya gotta show us here what you are going to do,or at least give us a link, as Ronaldo says watch yourself,these are very morish, but then all animals do this to us, yep methinks there are a coupleathree wannabe zoo owners here:blush:


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## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> :lol2::lol2::lol2:,ha ha mine is screaming I HATE PINK, mate we wish you all the best with your new room but ya gotta show us here what you are going to do,or at least give us a link, as Ronaldo says watch yourself,these are very morish, but then all animals do this to us, yep methinks there are a coupleathree wannabe zoo owners here:blush:


Pink should be banned. Everywhere.:devil:

I'm not a huge fan of Ts, but if you keep them, that gives you a head start in terms of temps, humidity etc :2thumb:. 'Phibs vary a lot, but basic research will give you plenty of guidelines.

The only inverts I have at the mo are deaths head roaches- but I have kept spiders, mantids, stick insects (lots of different kinds) *huge* Nigerian millipeeds, giant snails, hermit crabs etcetc. Frogs win every time.:2thumb::2thumb:


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## SkinheadOi85

Id be ebaressed to put up my room next too some of the things on here as mine would just be ready made exos or vivs and ready made shelfing as i have no diy skills at all really. But i love the hobby and my animals no matter what kind.

I cant wait till the money sorts its self out a little and I can start saving.....mmmm bring on the mini zoo:mf_dribble:

And I agree pink should be banned completely so far in this house...my daughters room, the kitchen, the downstairs bog. The kitchen has all cupcake nic nack things and girlyness and so does the downstairs bog BUT upstairs bathroom I attacked....cream walls, white bathmat with bloodied footprints and a shower curtain with smeared bloodprint hands down it...looks a bit like a murder scene :devil:. and most of the rest of the house has vivs around it!!! and the shed has a couple vivs in (empty) 4x4x2, 3x2x2 and a ft cubed exo and a 60cm x 60cm x 85cm high i think.

I have alot I wanna keep but Im a swine for uniformness so i would want the exos to all be the same size on one shelf etc :blush: Do like the look of retf, darts, norm tree frogs, pacman and a few toads ive seen i like...


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## soundstounite

Ha,mate we were thinking of you last night ....(no not like that:gasp Its me birthday my darlin boy(son) bought me /us a complete box set of justabout everything David AT. has ever done right back to when we were kids:blush:, and there was a toad, that made me think "oh Ron would love that" have tried real hard to remember it for ya but as F***** usual its gone,will get back to ya on this ...its a stunner,oh and Ron do you know what the peruvian frog is that the male is golden orange/female variagated;red white and green, looked like an atelopus but not sure massive degree of sexual dimorphism (not seen anything that different in the sexes in phibs before), truely astonishing, David A. said it was a dart? i think, hope it hasn't gone.


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## SkinheadOi85

Right lads and lasses i can hear the beer calling to me so im off for a few sly pints do you mind if I add you both on here...be nice to chat to some people from other sections that are helpful and good crack!


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## soundstounite

Mate diy is not skill its total stubborness and its so funny cause i have created a series of boxs of ali and i'm trying to work out how i can make these cubes different for each species that we one day will have, what i will say though mate is that you so blatently care about your animals, it would still be cool to see how you go about stuff,for sure I/we will learn sommit,mate gotta go its me birthday gotta go celebrate well Im still young enough:whistling2:.....ERM just: victory:


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## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Ha,mate we were thinking of you last night ....(no not like that:gasp Its me birthday my darlin boy(son) bought me /us a complete box set of justabout everything David AT. has ever done right back to when we were kids:blush:, and there was a toad, that made me think "oh Ron would love that" have tried real hard to remember it for ya but as F***** usual its gone,will get back to ya on this ...its a stunner,oh and Ron do you know what the peruvian frog is that the male is golden orange/female variagated;red white and green, looked like an atelopus but not sure massive degree of sexual dimorphism (not seen anything that different in the sexes in phibs before), truely astonishing, David A. said it was a dart? i think, hope it hasn't gone.


Nope, I don't- Atelopus are fascinating- but as I understand it, they need flowing water (stream living) and relatively cool temperatures- dunno if anyone on here keeps them.

@Pete: it's *not* a fashion show- if you provide the basic environment, the rest is just dressing! I personally really love 'naturalistic' planted vivs- but I'm not always sure the frogs know the difference...


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Ha,mate we were thinking of you last night ....(no not like that:gasp Its me birthday my darlin boy(son) bought me /us a complete box set of justabout everything David AT. has ever done right back to when we were kids:blush:, and there was a toad, that made me think "oh Ron would love that" have tried real hard to remember it for ya but as F***** usual its gone,will get back to ya on this ...its a stunner,oh and Ron do you know what the peruvian frog is that the male is golden orange/female variagated;red white and green, looked like an atelopus but not sure massive degree of sexual dimorphism (not seen anything that different in the sexes in phibs before), truely astonishing, David A. said it was a dart? i think, hope it hasn't gone.


hey Stu are you on about Bufo periglenes the golden toad
female








male


----------



## SkinheadOi85

Hey Ron I know what you mean about the fashion show thing...Ive gotta admit tho i just like the matchin uniform look really. Do like a well planted up natural viv too but then I like the more "creative freedom" types too.

Happy Birthday Stu...hope you had a good un dude.

Lol the diy is stubborness, but im a little too stubborn and tend to get slightly mad when I cant do things....this resulted in my old house mate gemma sending me too the pub and making 500quids of bedroom furniture up for me as I had two bedside cabinets and had to go get another as it didnt line up just right and got flung across the room in a child like paddy lol.:bash:


----------



## soundstounite

Richie thanks mate yep thats the one,breathtaking, I really didn't know that this degree of sexual dimorphism existed in phibs, stupid me, I'd have had them down as separate species,these are from costarica? Rich are they still going strong?
Ron hear ya mate, can these little frogs tell the difference betwixt a naturalistic habitat, and one that fullfills their needs,god knows? But, seen as we are the ones stating what they need, my personal thinking is a viv as akin as I can get to where they inhabit,might, just MIGHT give them nearer to what they need than i as a man can appraise , if that makes sense. Real tricky because i could make things so much simpler viv wise, but might i not be doing,all I could for my potential little charges: flip side is the effort that i might be wasting, which maybe i could spend on making their lives better elsewhere, mate its a great shout really got me thinking you saying that.
Pete, thanks kiddo birthday was RUDE, ha ha yep your in good company there mate ...I also do the "DOH,how could i be so ruddy stupid ...throw me dolly outa da pram,stuff"....ha ha its the next bit that counts,how ya mend what ya just f:censor: up. oh and sometimes i manage that...sometimes just throw more stuff:gasp::lol2:


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Richie thanks mate yep thats the one,breathtaking, I really didn't know that this degree of sexual dimorphism existed in phibs, stupid me, I'd have had them down as separate species,these are from costarica? Rich are they still going strong?
> Ron hear ya mate, can these little frogs tell the difference betwixt a naturalistic habitat, and one that fullfills their needs,god knows? But, seen as we are the ones stating what they need, my personal thinking is a viv as akin as I can get to where they inhabit,might, just MIGHT give them nearer to what they need than i as a man can appraise , if that makes sense. Real tricky because i could make things so much simpler viv wise, but might i not be doing,all I could for my potential little charges: flip side is the effort that i might be wasting, which maybe i could spend on making their lives better elsewhere, mate its a great shout really got me thinking you saying that.
> Pete, thanks kiddo birthday was RUDE, ha ha yep your in good company there mate ...I also do the "DOH,how could i be so ruddy stupid ...throw me dolly outa da pram,stuff"....ha ha its the next bit that counts,how ya mend what ya just f:censor: up. oh and sometimes i manage that...sometimes just throw more stuff:gasp::lol2:


 no sadly Stu theyre now extinct, i remeber watching this on david attenborough years ago, apparently in 1987 they found 1500 of them in the mountains of costa rica, but because of unusually dry weather all the ponds and tadpoles dried up, a year later they found one male toad and by 1989 they were all gone. What a waste of such a stunning amphibian.
I dont even think they had chance to collect any to breed in breeding programs which theyre now doing with atelopus zeteki another stunning gold amphibian in serious decline


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## soundstounite

Oh mate....oh that is SO sad So sad,gutted I am.oh man we have lost so much, yes I am aware of (here we go) Atelopus zetki? its the panamanian(he he more spelling corrections from her in doors how can anyone see that word.PA..ianianimain) national emblem,females much larger...pure gold males smaller with black marks....they of the slow handwave,and the call that I mimic though none have responded here:gasp::lol2: oh mate would love to be somehow envolved with setting some of these back on their feet. That being said the more of us that keep em the safer they will be even if only in small numbers spread about we are unlikely to loose all of them.


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## SkinheadOi85

Hows the room going Stu??? have you plants survived this dreadful weather???


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## soundstounite

SkinheadOi85 said:


> Hows the room going Stu??? have you plants survived this dreadful weather???


 ok buddy all the boards that i have are cut and inplace(oh cheers for the friend request i ment to pm ya but forgot been a mad day),plants all safe though a couple got bit slightly,funnily enough all the same species.Shaz has sorted another 6 springtail cultures(splits from ones that were absolutly heaving) mate it took 2 days for the compo to warm up enough so she could move em. Ha ha... been trying to stuff so much grub into that robin, poor little sod out all night in that, will be gutted if oneday he doesn't come in the house for breakfast anymore,so cold. Dude you and your good?


----------



## soundstounite

Hey there, hope youall are warm enough!!! So off we go on the next nonsense,he he. 
Managed to get out yesterday and grab a shed load of runners, mad dash to get back as Shaz not good, anyway rack stuff !
We chose white runners for the racks these were cut to size with a bit of hack saw blade, not much need for accuracy here pretty much everything is not visable








we then trimmed up and rough edges with a stanley knife,just to be 100% sure there were no tiny bits of plastic that could get to our potiential charges and then I ran a big wedge of silicon down the length,mainly because there is the unevenness created by the two rivits, and the lighting doors need even runners , so the silicon provides a good "level bed" to carry it all.


----------



## soundstounite

We then poped the runners into place, paying real attention to the detail....ie that the runners lie straight. As stated before 3mm pvc foamboard is used for the lighting doors, which I now cut with a stanley knife and a steel ruler,plus a couple of clamps.
This I suppose is another of those milestone moments, was always bugged as a kid by relections or direct light spoiling my view of the phibs, this was a massive influence when we chose this style of racking, OOORRRAAA it ruddy works , her's a pic ....he he 99% of light is comming from the viv....at last...oh and have a workaround for the other bit if we can afford it but I am stoked with what I am seeing so I suppose its a case of SORTED!!!!








will show ya a couple more pics, as this is pretty much it as far as the building of this rack goes of course there are the ancilliaries and these will be covered as we impliment them...drains ...misting system etc. here ya go


----------



## soundstounite

And just for Morgan a quick pan round the room, only thing I suppose to note is that we have stuffed a blind inthe window ,though got to say in the mayhem of the last week or so I haven't a clue when it happened :gasp:...just know I did it :lol2:
So Morg starting at the door I hope and going anticlock this is where we are today ha ha,
























































Thats about it for now!!!!! Stu


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## Morgan Freeman

That f***ing rocks.


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## richie.b

Morgan Freeman said:


> That f***ing rocks.


i f***ing second that :notworthy:


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## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> i f***ing second that :notworthy:


Thank F*** for that,:Na_Na_Na_Na:thanks guys, you sods have made a hell of a difference to this , ha ha Shaz says I f*** ing rock too, and She's the only one to have seen me play.....erm behave,I know what your thinking. Now once everything defrosts viv time.....BRING IT ON


----------



## sambridge15

that bottom viv looks stunning!! lol few years you will be giving dartfrog.uk a run for its money!!


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## stewie m

thats look flipping fatastic 

i hope there not baby weed plants in them tubs


----------



## soundstounite

sambridge15 said:


> that bottom viv looks stunning!! lol few years you will be giving dartfrog.uk a run for its money!!


 Ha thanks Sam ...I don't think so Marc is one clever man and his knowledge is profound, I/we just want to be breeders,of darts,we just love these frogs love em, oh and Stewie of course they are weeds, darty weeds though,we are also doing the plantbreeding thang, which is tricky at the moment as we are running out of space bigstyle,better get some vivs sorted soon me thinks, thanks both Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

Morgan Freeman said:


> That f***ing rocks.


F:censor: yeah!

Stu, when I win my zillions, you are def going to be employed to sort out my Animal Room!:2thumb:


----------



## chulainn

amazing this is the best on this forum by a mile. great work:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> F:censor: yeah!
> 
> Stu, when I win my zillions, you are def going to be employed to sort out my Animal Room!:2thumb:


Shaz says..."he won't be f:censor:ing cheep mate.....but you'll be RICH: victory::lol2:. Me.....my lady is mendingOOOOOO F:censor:ING RAAA!!!! Ron, no Bro I aint gonna win no millions :blush:so sorry dude, that is not something I would be able to give ya back, but if I DID we would have a MOTHER of a ZOO and shit man wouldn't we put sommit back JUST WOULDN' T WE......(wish I knew how that blue stuff happened!!!!!!:blush:...now there's a first)


----------



## soundstounite

chulainn said:


> amazing this is the best on this forum by a mile. great work:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


 Honestly dude AM TOTALLY HUMBLED so generous thanks !!!! But mate there are so many great things here, GOOD PEOPLE straight cool and I know its old fashioned but well honourable, these guys will try their all to help ya...none of us know it all, but we gives what we got, for all, that will always be greater than what one guy shows, am just a little guy with his head down ,F:censor:ing going for it!!!! who would like to give a bit back for all that has been given....Thankyou buddy thankyou
Bollox,only thing I managed today was try our new waterfilter out,wow proper hard core, chip through 8" of ice....emerse ones hand fill copious amounts of anything to hand with maybe a bit cleaner water,so wanted the rest of those doors in, tomorrow will show ya filter and how was made,its a nuffin and a huge thing at the same time now there's a paradox!


----------



## Jezza84

i have decided i dont like you anymore :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Great work stu Bring on the frogs!!!!


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## Ruby Rue

This is an amazing thread, I've just read from page 1, just spent all afternoon, you've done a sterling job building them, to build everything to such a high standard thinking at every step. :2thumb: be bloody proud as well as humble.


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## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> i have decided i dont like you anymore :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> Great work stu Bring on the frogs!!!!


 Ha ha, ya never did anyway:Na_Na_Na_Na:, but , mate how the hell did we both manage to switch...so your down there, and we're up here,so wish we were closer man,yeah absolutely....BRING THEM ON,just a little bit more,ha bet that turns into shedloads, but we really are getting close, bet I miss her bithday, but just maybe chrimbo, he he, nearly got there a couple of weeks ago!!!!, but unfortunately things didn't work out,Starting to think proper hard now on which species should be best accomodated in which rack space, and after the wonderful "slap round the head" Mr Marcus You and others have given me how the hell to build the best poss accomodation for 'em he he Azzie viv is next ,gotta be...Shaz's fav!!!


----------



## soundstounite

Ruby Rue said:


> This is an amazing thread, I've just read from page 1, just spent all afternoon, you've done a sterling job building them, to build everything to such a high standard thinking at every step. :2thumb: be bloody proud as well as humble.


 :lol2::lol2::lol2:Scumbridge cracking love that....Thanks dude,ahh Its a lovely thing when ya find a thread that you HAVE to read, and it goes on and on he he, chuffed truely (probably not the right words but ya know) that anyone would give an afternoon over to our little nonsense.


----------



## soundstounite

Second rack with the lighting doors in!!








Gonna repeat me self just a little bit here.... Cutting the 3 mm foam board(and for all multiples) use a template!!! measure, always 3 times, before one makes a cut,if they don't line up then something is measured wrong.Once one has got said template check it everywhere ...spend some time.... make sure everything is 100% right, then use the said temp to cut everything else,score very gently and accurately round the temp. and then blitz...repeatedly getting heavier your blade will follow the first score. Use the temp for all following cuts ,almost foolproof, almost he he,saves a massive amount of time measuring!! and is highly accurate...nuff said!
We are gonna use rainwater for our frogs, we live in the sticks...Ish, these frogs don't get ro water in the wild, (which is also expensive to produce and from what I have read very watstefull),which might just mess with their so so sensitive skins, in ways I do not fully understand, as it is we have taken a feature away with their diets, that has made them who they are(their toxins). So what we are gonning to try is filtering the rainwater, in an unconfirmed attempt! to rid our water of any nasties.
We have used,fine (white) and coarse (green) pond filters with an activated carbon filter sandwiched betweem them(dark grey),Shaz cut these to size, and stuffed em in a well funnel he he an old 4 pint milk container which acts as a funnel, so water out of but through filter ..maul to room .... store to bring up to temperature in the room and use will be our working method, for the time being. Yeah of course I have a bit more going on but need to get me head round some stuff first, here ya go one filter, ha ha in all its splendor (had to say that she'd clop me otherwise:whistling2


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Shaz says..."he won't be f:censor:ing cheep mate.....but you'll be RICH: victory::lol2:. Me.....my lady is mendingOOOOOO F:censor:ING RAAA!!!! Ron, no Bro I aint gonna win no millions :blush:so sorry dude, that is not something I would be able to give ya back, but if I DID we would have a MOTHER of a ZOO and shit man wouldn't we put sommit back JUST WOULDN' T WE......(wish I knew how that blue stuff happened!!!!!!:blush:...now there's a first)


No, mate,* I *win the millions, *you* get paid minimum wage!:lol2: Joking aside, I'm really not sure about rainwater- it brings down lots of nasty chemicals that are just floating around- or did you say you were going to filter it? *Checking, you did- let us know how that goes*


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## Jezza84

Yeah crazy us switching parts of the country like that. It is nice up there though was it mickleton you said? I think your some where around there lol nice butcher in mickleton lol. Next time i'm up in stratford i will have to pop around, hopefully you will have lots of frog's by then. Nice work on the filter shaz :2thumb:
I use just tap water for my lot but then i do live in a soft water are Had the same kettle for about 4 years now lol and no lime scale yet.
Racking really does look good stu will defo be following suit when i get in to the new gaff. Got 6 azureus tads now and another clutch of eggs with 3 developing. so looks like they have sussed the first bit out finally.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> No, mate,* I *win the millions, *you* get paid minimum wage!:lol2: Joking aside, I'm really not sure about rainwater- it brings down lots of nasty chemicals that are just floating around- or did you say you were going to filter it? *Checking, you did- let us know how that goes*


 :2thumb: I allready get penuts your are a cruel man:Na_Na_Na_Na: Gonna fit a couple of diverters too Ron, we already catch somewhere about 2000 liters and we have yet to sort a massive butt that you could nearly fit a mini in!!!!!. So We will be able to let it rain for 10 mins and send that somewhere else for the garden and then divert the water for the frogs to a couple or 3 separate water butts,totally dedicated to the frogs, and finally the filter stage. Really want to go this route if possible, totally not a fan of our tap water. When we lived in truo our water came from a spring(we really were right out ,not even mains elecy,or water). When we moved up here and went back to tap water it really messed with all of us,we simply were always thirsty and felt dog rough,untill we got used to it ,but it took weeks. Got a hunch,the frogs will do better with stuff that has not been messed with,but it is only a hunch, bloody hope I'm right,this water lark is i fear be one of the most important elements in keeping these frogs,and even moreso with the kids, not a decision that we are taking lightly my friend. We are also thinking of a crude sort of filter on the way in as well.


----------



## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> Yeah crazy us switching parts of the country like that. It is nice up there though was it mickleton you said? I think your some where around there lol nice butcher in mickleton lol. Next time i'm up in stratford i will have to pop around, hopefully you will have lots of frog's by then. Nice work on the filter shaz :2thumb:
> I use just tap water for my lot but then i do live in a soft water are Had the same kettle for about 4 years now lol and no lime scale yet.
> Racking really does look good stu will defo be following suit when i get in to the new gaff. Got 6 azureus tads now and another clutch of eggs with 3 developing. so looks like they have sussed the first bit out finally.


 Right betwix honeybourne and Mickleton mate, and if i was down there i probably would too(use tap) mate but the water is pants here!!!
He he bloody congrats mate at last,little fella took his time, we thought he might be a JAFFA!!!, nah thought this was gonna happen. Funny I was thinking about them today ,ya still got that other lady? have talked to a few peeps and everyones, almost, seem to come from the same source !!! Ta for the words about the racks dude , tell ya what I really like the white its growing on me,really wanted the black at first but twas too much dollar and couldn't find it in both thicknesses anyway, and there is the plus that the white lighting doors are opaque and chucking a bit of light back as reflections,which the black would probably absorb.


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Right betwix honeybourne and Mickleton mate, and if i was down there i probably would too(use tap) mate but the water is pants here!!!
> He he bloody congrats mate at last,little fella took his time, we thought he might be a JAFFA!!!, nah thought this was gonna happen. Funny I was thinking about them today ,ya still got that other lady? have talked to a few peeps and everyones, almost, seem to come from the same source !!! Ta for the words about the racks dude , tell ya what I really like the white its growing on me,really wanted the black at first but twas too much dollar and couldn't find it in both thicknesses anyway, and there is the plus that the white lighting doors are opaque and chucking a bit of light back as reflections,which the black would probably absorb.


youll get lots of different bloodlines of azureas at Hamm Stu, to be fair a lot of the ones sold in this country come from Simon T he even supplies a well known wholesaler so chances are most of the ones in shops came from him as well, 
and the frogrooms looking very good as usual, youll have to have an open day when you fill it with frogs :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

he he thanks mate,Yep as ya can tell our homework has shown the first bit, na mate we'll have to catch up before I fill this!!! that will not be quick . We wanna feel our way first,and enjoy just having them,then as we can....try and kinda softly softly build a viv for a species, set the tank and start looking .Don't wanna go too quick eventhough WANT ALL NOW. My goal has always been sort the room and aquire the frogs slowly,but not so slow that I keel over first,ya know what I mean


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> he he thanks mate,Yep as ya can tell our homework has shown the first bit, na mate we'll have to catch up before I fill this!!! that will not be quick . We wanna feel our way first,and enjoy just having them,then as we can....try and kinda softly softly build a viv for a species, set the tank and start looking .Don't wanna go too quick eventhough WANT ALL NOW. My goal has always been sort the room and aquire the frogs slowly,but not so slow that I keel over first,ya know what I mean


i know what you mean Stu i wasnt going to get anymore after i sold all mine beggining of the year untill i retired and had more time, but decided i just couldnt wait that long so here i go again :bash: im looking for mostly pums this time though so that will not be so easy and will mean proberbly only getting them when i go overseas, and my main supplier doesnt sell a lot of pums so its going to be breeders mainly ordered in advance, even as good as hamm is you dont see that many pums out on the tables


----------



## soundstounite

he he at least your dream is realistic I have always wanted histo and slyv. rare is not the word bet I have a viv set up for rummin ages for them, what pums are you after mate? I so love the bastis ,bet ya say all he he


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> he he at least your dream is realistic I have always wanted histo and slyv. rare is not the word bet I have a viv set up for rummin ages for them, what pums are you after mate? I so love the bastis ,bet ya say all he he


All he he, 

i want some more cristobal and nancy, bri bri some bastimentos town morph definitly, pretty much whatever i can get hold of to be honest.
i just love everything about them,ive only got the robalo at the moment but theyre so good to watch and are out all the time jumping from brom to brom and the males call i think is lovely plus when they do breed the parents do all the work :2thumb: bonus 

i was offered some sexed pairs of red headed and white foot histos last year but they were out of my price range :gasp:


----------



## soundstounite

Knew it:lol2: you could only say all!!. And yeah I know about the price around a cool 1/2 agrand :gasp: for a frog,I am somwhere near am I not? Crazy and totally out of reach but then I did say dream,and like most things I suppose I don't really listen to why I shouldn't,but just get me head down and try to make it happen. Gotta say mate I personally really do have a deep deep fascination for the oophaga, and especially the above two species. Wish it could be something a bit more realistic though that said there are several reasons that we WILL oneday keep histos(see there i go again:lol2 and it has absolutely nothing to do with the price/or exclusivity thang, I adore the markings, the challange of keeping /breeding them, and it is my humble opinoin that the more that are kept and BRED the safer they will be ,the flip side is the horror of overcollecting that I have recently become aware of, I wish things were different!! Anyhow I am talking ages yet.... tell me more about the pums ,get me feet back on the ground mate!! Do the different morphs need differing temps ? How long do you keep the kids in with the parents? I have read lots about them doing better in larger vivs,do you find this the case?


----------



## soundstounite

Well been at it again still no frog stuff really, but what the hell,its all intregal to the room,first up pulled the latest rack out and lined the wall with 25mm polystyrene,cant be doing with heating me neighbours,should cut down on the heating abit too which is the main reason!! It will be barely visable once the rack is sorted,and because of the white every where it is not really noticeable now








Also,installed a little work top, erm:blush: as usual all rubbish, its supported by a couple of hangmans brackets....strong as hell.... glued and screwed, son has already sat on it and it should provide us with a little space to work on...hangmans bracket ralwplugged to wall








here is the work top nuffin much but blummin usefull!!








As you might make out I cut a bit of the back out to allow the heat from the rad to circulate


----------



## soundstounite

This is a bit more interesting Shaz's fav frog is Den.tinc.azureus, as with alot of people,so as you'll know how much this is about her,we have made a slow start on her dream frogs gaff, its a 50x50x40high viv. Which will hopefully hold a male high trio, we have been told many times that the males will egg each other on,well gently compete, not like the lasses who are sods to each other and will hound each other sometimes to the point of the owner having to remove the less dominant for its own safety.
So a tentative start, to our cork tiles we rubbed in a bit of the epiwebmoss mix and then glued them in place(the viv build glass malarky is back a few pages) with again silirub AQ,best silicon we have found yet, and I have used many silicones over the years! After the cork was sorted, we coated the remaining areas with some more silicone to aid with the grip of the expanding foam that will come later. Despite my best efforts we have been unable to find an etching primer that is sutible for frogs and glass so have taken this route as the only means available to enhance the "grip". This viv will have a very open floor area,as most of the tincs are quite terrestrial and our very limited observations confirm this...moreso it seems with the azzies than other tincs,every time we personally see them they are down low . We will also provide, some higher shelters for roosting. So here are a couple of shots to illustrate the above
















Regards ALL Stu


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## soundstounite

once we started to offer up Shaz's chosen bits of oak we had a bit of a rethink,a stripped back some of the silicone that was covering the glass so we could add a bit more cork and stuck that in place








we had to cut the oak down a bit so before we installed it we drilled into the end this should give us a little mini planter, in to which we will install a little cutting to hide the cut, maybe an oaklaer ficus ...not 100% sure yet








This piece is supported by a small bit of polystyrene,carved and then stuck on a pencil so I could apply a heat gun to it, without burning me mitts. This process toughens up the polystyrene a bit and also removes some of the loose bits,gives a slightly better surface for applying the rockoflex too.(do it outside...fumes!!!) The oak was simply mounted in place using silicone
















And then the silicon at the top is covered in some dry ecoearth/peat mix
















The piece of oak bark is just there to prop up the oak,it will eventually live under the lump of wood and be removeable, our hope is that the azzies might lay here one day...who knows we'll see. We will leave this to dry off for a couple of days and then start to attack the other side. Hear is where we are at now








Merry chrimbo guys Stu


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## Jezza84

Nice work again stu 
Is it compressed cork panels you are using on the sides of your viv's? Merry crimbo to you two too :2thumb:


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## JayW

How come you've left some of the backing? - Just curious as to is there a reason or not got to that part yet? 

yes, be aware of me lol I will hammer you guys with questions as it's the way I learn :$


----------



## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> Nice work again stu
> Is it compressed cork panels you are using on the sides of your viv's? Merry crimbo to you two too :2thumb:


 Hey mate,how goes it, yep we .....well ya know about me an the patience thang,sat and watched E bay,eventually got about 50 panels total bargain!!! I have also seen them at Marcs so he might be able to get them,or keep watching!! They are in our first 3 vivs,they dry out a little quicker than I would personally prefer,but that said that might be my inexperiance talking. All the plants seem to love them...even the so called fussy orchids are rooting into them and the little dendrobium is putting out new bulbs...my limited experiances are all good mate,hell even the epiweb moss is growing on them,and thats meant to be real tricky,ha well lets hope i haven't cursed it. Have a stonker bro Stu Thanks for the kindness!!


----------



## stewie m

how will u be heating the vivs 

or are just using the lights and the radiator


----------



## soundstounite

JayW said:


> How come you've left some of the backing? - Just curious as to is there a reason or not got to that part yet?
> 
> yes, be aware of me lol I will hammer you guys with questions as it's the way I learn :$


 Yeah Jay, there is a massive reason, this part of the viv will have a false background created from pots polystyrene and expanding foam,alot of guys now use gorrilla glue but for me and my experiance the foam is way better for two reasons the biggy is I have used it many times before,and also I have been told the the gorrila glue needs the viv tipping on its back to coat the back whereas I can work on the vertical with foam, if I could have shown you that artical you would understand,mate find the link that I gave you.(dart viv builds early stages)..its on this thread early posted by Bothrops for me(thanks dude).It wil explain it all and my methods will be apparant. This is the method we used, for the vivs already in this thread. 
As far as the Q's go mate fire away(a man after my own heart) if I can't answer ya 'cause I am a novice too I will point ya in a direction of guys that I honestly believe can help ya, he he I will also give ya pointers find em mate read em,one always remembers more if it has taken a while to find it lol2:ha maybe thats an age thang I have to bang imputting in with a hammer). Go for it mate,its great watching someone come into this who REALLY wants to learn, ha now ya got me inspired, have a fantastic chrimbo dude..... Stu


----------



## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> how will u be heating the vivs
> 
> or are just using the lights and the radiator


 Yeah Stewie exactly that, which is why I have gone through all the nonsense of insulating the floor wall and messing about stuffing in a triple glazed window,all of these factors will save us dosh long term...if I was more affluent I would have definitely insulated the outside wall. All this insulation will also have a beneficial effect in the summer when its silly hot too, as it will be easier to keep the temperatures stable. This room has been delibarately chosen because it gets only the very early morning sun,say up to 8.30... 9.0AM...close to north facing.


----------



## stewie m

arr i see


----------



## soundstounite

Back to the Azzie viv,as stated before Shaz wants this real open. We have looked extensively on the web and found some veryinpsirational pics,we decided on some rockwork on the right not much but kind of a gesture to it. Because of weight concearns i split down our chosen rocks and mounted them on some polystyrene,which we also carved out a bit,this will give us a deeper bed of substrate to work with, into which we will plant several seliginella krausiana. They polystyrene was carved with drainage in mind,the substrate level will come just below the rockwork,hopefully giving the impression that they are deeper than they actually are.
























http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/Da%20frog%20Ro[IMG]
And mounted in the viv...note we sealed the edges with silicone as well as using it as a glue, this is because the epoxy doesn't grip that well to glass,so it gives an extra bit of leeway later when applying the rockoflex and epoxy resin
[IMG]http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/Da%20frog%20Room/IMG_1612.jpg








We felt that the oak bark tunnel was a bit too long so after cutting a bit off the back we also added a couple of bits of cork to add a bit of stability to it.We were concearned that it could potientially move with bad consiquences for a frog...remember this "tunnel" will be removeable


----------



## soundstounite

Shaz also wanted a higher platform,so we made that up out of polystyrene,and also carved up a little bit to front the left hand side, method as usual,stanley knife ...bit of hacksaw blade and then run over it with a heat gun








We also installed a pot left over from a previous build, this was coated with expanding foam, and then covered with epoxy and coated with ecoearth/peat mix.








and finally where we are at, as of tonight with the bit of bark popped back in for the photo seeya all Stu


----------



## JayW

Make a ledge?  

Where do you guys buy polostireain from? I can't spell it lol.


----------



## soundstounite

JayW said:


> Make a ledge?
> 
> Where do you guys buy polostireain from? I can't spell it lol.


 ha ha don't worry mate I see letters in a jumbled way so your in good company:lol2:Its polystyrene mate, now you can get it out of old packaging,which is totally cool ,ya know me and recycling:whistling2:, but you need the denser stuff,if you can't find any then your local builders merchant should help,its around £3/4 a sheet....45cmx1200cm say 18"x4' for the thinner say1" and a bit more for the 2",we use both. oh and with regards to the ledge,sometimes they might prefer to breed or just roost up there,we try to give them lots of levels so they can go to where they feel most comfortable....there is a temperature gradient in most vivs...ie cooler at the bottom...warmer at the top(some have a warmer end say created by a heat mat),you will also find that the airflow and hence humidity might also vary,so basically giving them the best chance of always being able to find a comfy spot. Athough one mainly finds them on the ground tincs/ azzies can apparantly be found up to 2m off the ground in the wild,so its worth giving them a bit of a climbing frame if they want to use it.


----------



## soundstounite

so just a bit more progress we think we are finished with the wood and polystyrene stage,will leave to cure abit and then add the rockoflex








oh and this backs up the theory of imobilising ffs using a few secs in the freezer,when i tipped mine into a freezing container they looked dead,after a few secs in me mitt for Rob to feed they started comming back to life so chrimbo and robin yeah man its gotta be done here ya go


----------



## soundstounite

Back to the room then and a day of FREEZING mitts, knocked up a little gaff for the stinky ffs, I suppose part of the problem is the sheer no.s that we are culturing,but it is seriously important that we have all this stuff wired, though, before getting any frogs...can't be doing with hungry darts!! So here is the card up the sleave...... in the bottom left of the pic you can just make out a little door( hid behind a small triangle thingy that the door opens into), this is a vent to outside,they built these into old houses it appears. So we have lined the thin bit of ply (door) with a thick piece of polystyrene as insulation, the exterior wall is also insulated. My hope is that a small hole in the door filled with a bit of tube linked to a tiny aquarium pump will take the smell outside without too much cooling of the flies or the room, the heat from the pump should help to offset this. We might also have to add a heatmat to help bring the temp up to optimum for the ffs, though this has yet to be determined, as the ff's cupboard will also benefit fron the heat rising from the lights, of the 3 vivs (well 6 but 3 lights) below it....we will see so here is the obligitory pic to make all clear, still to add the foam board but ran out of light before completion( ruddy bird feeding slightly slowed progress !!! it doesn't help when there is a little chap sat on the workbench demanding his share of me frog grub either:whistling2 








seeya happy chrimbo Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Foam board in, doors in, just a bit of tinkering to sort around the vent and one ff cage.Maybe, we are guessing, it will hold, guessing, 30 sweet jars, and and of course we migh need to install some form of extra heat,that will wailt though untill lighting is completely sorted, and the heat that comes with it,coupled with the tiny bit of heat from the pump
















Also managed to be a sneaky git and nail the rockoflex on crimbo morn ...so here's the Azzie viv now

























this will be make or break on the planting me thinks hmmmm,next up epoxy and substrate to cover have a great time guys merry partymas Stu


----------



## sambridge15

looking good as ever:2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

sambridge15 said:


> looking good as ever:2thumb:


 Thanks man will be gad when this cold breaks so can get the other two water tested and the epoxy sorted, spent the day taking cuttings and going through the plants,need to get cracking soon,might have some frogs next year:gasp:


----------



## soundstounite

decided to add one of our clouds to the azzie viv just another level for the frogs to utilise,still to rockoflex though,waiting for the silicone to cure








Also made a start on the machetos viv,quite similar in a lot of ways to the azzie,same species so i spose it will be, and a few little notes just to stress certain bits that i think might be real important, mainly with respect to silicone,we always glue all round every edge then infill,my hope is that these will hold up for a good few years so its not really worth skimping, also it prevents there being any little gaps where a frog might squeeze behind,I have already seen this as a beginner so its a big thing to be careful about here's what I am blabbing about,back of a bit of polystyrene








we always seal every adjoining edge of poly too, to keep things tidy you can use a piece of wood soaked in water (with a tiny bit of washing up liquid) to shape the silicone as the silicone wont stick to the wet wood heres the bit we use for vivs kept wet in a coffee lid








so the viv...cork round first...if you leave a couple of bits at the rear of the sides it makes it much easier to see that you have no liitle gaps where froggie could get trapped as you knock up the background,then messed about with some wood untill we found where we liked them.sat them on a bit of poly to lift then slightly








once we had this in place we marked up the poly to start fitting.... cut a bit for the back and used the rearmost bit of oak as a template...and then cut/carved the poly to size so there were no gaps behind the wood
















and the last shot shows how the floor was marked out ready for cutting








first bit of wood in nothing glued yet


----------



## soundstounite

of course all the bits have been fitted into the floor in the photos and then the areas marked,
















cutting was done with a bit of hacksaw blade,and after carving run a heatgun over the poly this makes a MASSIVE difference which is why i am repeating this ,i have tried to get a before and after shot of the base but don't know how much you can see(everything being white),what you cant see is how much stronger this makes the surface of the poly(do it OUTSIDE ....fumes!!)


----------



## soundstounite

The first and larger is after heating maybe you can see how much the surface has been melted compared to the second shot...hmmmm
Bits 'o' wood and carved up base








and a different angle 








spent a bit of time making sure all the little gaps at the back were blocked ..and we then sealed it all in and started messing over the back left making a little planter hidey hole etc here ya go
















once the right side was sorted moved to the left,constantly checking everything is sealed real tight here are the right back bits going in
































adetail of the silicone and the whole thang


----------



## soundstounite

You'll notice i also snuck in another of our foamed up pots so here's where it sits now ready for rockoflex i think
















Well i was idle i knocked up a few film canasters,covered in silicone with some blobs on the base(so they are stable),dunked in a bag of dry eco/peat mix ie dig a little hole put canaster in and then push the soil mix into the silicone on all sides stand on a bit more compo and press the canaster down on to the blobs untill it is stable...sorted,now you viv doesnt look like the ruddy paparazzi have been init you could cover it in moss once needed here they are in all their finary:lol2:









happy 
new 
year 
all 
stu


----------



## soundstounite

just a few pics of the two tinc vivs finished off in rockoflex
Azzie








Macheto
























As these cure out which shouldn't take that long am already working on the Mysti viv,we are using the dendrobase pics for inspiration,though whether we are able to achieve what i want here remains to be seen...it will hopefully be somewhat different in apperance to these. Would greatly apprecaite any help that anyone can give, most of the fake rocks look kak,but have seen some cracking stuff on dendroboard, so making something half decsent is doable...its just how? The first crack will be carving up some polystyrene,gonna stiple some rockoflex on and then try some ground up rock dust,and pigments dusted on to the epoxy coat,with a possible dry brush coat on too to alleviate the shinyness of the epoxy really wish i could use paints,but having painted stuff since maybe 4/5 and in so many forms,i really don't think that they will last as long as i want them too,especially under the humidity of a dart viv. I know some people have used acrylic,and i am very familiar with this medium, as it is my paint of choice when messing about painting wildlife,which i don't get to do as often as I would like,hmmmm wonder if i can get a pic of a transparancy on here would be very interesting for me and maybe some of you....goes off on one....


----------



## jme2049

Looking good Stu:2thumb: I can't wait to see them planted. The fake rock will get covered in algae or the like soon enough with the lights an moisture.

Also how did you tame your robin? I got 2 fat wood pigeons that visit my garden every day for food an I want to get them to know me. I'll try an get some pics up of them I think they're like pigeon mr & mrs:lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

not perfect i know but i don't have the original,ha there is another use for this ruddy machine,I've been wondering about that for a while,sorry guys :lol2:just hijacked me own thread.
Anyway back too it can anyone shed some light on how to make some BELIEVABLE fake rocks?all takers as always greatfully recieved,
regards all Stu


----------



## soundstounite

jme2049 said:


> Looking good Stu:2thumb: I can't wait to see them planted. The fake rock will get covered in algae or the like soon enough with the lights an moisture.
> 
> Also how did you tame your robin? I got 2 fat wood pigeons that visit my garden every day for food an I want to get them to know me. I'll try an get some pics up of them I think they're like pigeon mr & mrs:lol2:


 Hey bro,thanks for the words about the vivs, maybe a week or two and should be there or there abouts just the cold might mess things up..... need those rocks to be right mate,as most of the viv will be them.
Buddy really this one came to me,though you have just triggered a real distant memory ,Well 2 actually, but specifically a woody in Torbay,though i can't remember hand feeding,although i know I got veryclose ...just can't remember,mate the secret i beleive is a constant sound when giving food,i was rabbiting to Morg about it recently....everheard of Pavlovian conditioning,basically the sound becomes so intertwined with food that the beastie,gets sort of brainwashed,so the sound means food,then its down to a massive amount of patience and above all REPITION,the rep is highlighted because this needs a constant reinforcing(i would guess the cold spell and lack of other grub helped everything along somewhat in this case ...Rob) same sound everytime mate,poss even same clothes in the early stages,:lol2:gonna do this with the froggies too mate can't wait actually,thanks for the post mate really want to see some pics of ya with a couple of woodies sat on your hand and head:lol2:....the pigeon man of Cardiff:lol2:


----------



## jme2049

I will try to get pics and your tips sound like they should work:2thumb:.

I like reading your posts they're quite funny all the time as if your just nattering away on the phone or something:lol2: 
Where are you from? For some reason I think you're Scottish?


----------



## soundstounite

jme2049 said:


> I will try to get pics and your tips sound like they should work:2thumb:.
> 
> I like reading your posts they're quite funny all the time as if your just nattering away on the phone or something:lol2:
> Where are you from? For some reason I think you're Scottish?


 Aye...right...enough,aw thats tidy that is(just a shame you cant hear those first was scot sec your neck o the woods:blush: but i constantly talk in others acents) no mate i am a midlander that was brought up down in the sw,and the moved back up here...because I'm mad(well actually to run a bird place), ...but yeah mate i like to laugh and if i make someone smile when there is so much hardship about then i am chuffed...don't really care if its at my expense ,too much sadness in the world mate,to be serious for long.....its probably all down too age though:lol2:
on the bird thing, started this as a kid of 6/7 had a Rob very similar to this come when called hand fed bla bla,but it goes back way earlier...here's a story(are you sitting comfy?)
When i was 4 mum put me to bed....after awhile that night there was a tapping at me window...i got up pulled back the curtain,sat on my windowcill is a pigeon,hmmmm..."i better get mum" i thought..."mum mum there's a pigeon on me window, he's hungry he needs some food" so me mum took me back up stairs to put me back to bed,of course she had to humour me as i kept nagging about me hungrey bird, so she pulls back the curtain...sure enough one pigeon,"look mum he's hungry" so she humoured me well i carefully opened up the window stuck me mitt out "c'mon mate have some food",mum says she was gobsmacked as this bird walked over and sat on my tiny hand,well wrist, t'was a bit heavy,we then went downstairs where this bird would take food off no one else but yours truely, honest mate this is no bullshit,somewhere here is a pic of me with that bird,dad says he took it while scratching his bonce,me i can remember the first part but not actually feeding it(bummer but i got a pic of that),as an adult i think the bird was sick but forsure its weird...especailly the last bit that it wouldn't feed off the others, realistically though animals know stuff how why ...haven't a clue but they do...silly i know mate but totally true story...s'pose its the old sixth sense..that we have lost although every now and then there is something that just tells ya that somethings not right...ahh man you know what i mean!! Stu


----------



## jme2049

:lol2: Good reading! 
cheers Stu


----------



## soundstounite

jme2049 said:


> :lol2: Good reading!
> cheers Stu


 and true mate HONEST....silly old f:censor: i am
C'mon guys i know you looking could really do with some rock help,though they need to look the dogs b**** help me out guys.....pretty please:notworthy:


----------



## jme2049

What is your rock stuff made of? What effect are you going for?


----------



## jme2049

I used expanding foam, then grouted(grey) a few layers then added yacht varnish. While the varnish was drying I sprinkled some coco fibre on it. That was in a fbt tank and its all green now with algae growing on it. It's like a rock pool. Looks pretty cool.


----------



## soundstounite

jme2049 said:


> What is your rock stuff made of? What effect are you going for?


 have a look on dendrobase.... find the species bit.... go to the mysties(wish i could give ya a proper link),and i want to create that mountain in a viv,I am thinking of quite a different planting to the usual,sure the broms(they are integral to these mysties but the species of,is it Alchemea? i guess will be too big) and want to suppliment the planting with grasses maybe juncas,not 100% sure yet. 
As far as the rocks go well simply put I want them to look.... well like those grey rocks,sure the humidity and the light will make algae etc grow, but firstly i am after a kinda cliff face. My reasons for this are several fold primarily just the bewilderment that a dart lives here,second with a set up like we are trying our novice best to achieve i don't want x no of dart vivs looking identical,sure there are common features to all, but I am trying in me own small way to make a variety of vivs that suit each individual species as best we can,so I am trying to go out of the box.
Primary concean will always be that the tiny glass boxes offer the frogs the most challenging and suitable environment, by challenging i mean giving them lots of climbing/levels/ hidey holes/etc...ie physical but i guess there must also be space for a little bit of...erm artistry(see panda above which is my interpretation of where they live)
Does that make sense?


----------



## soundstounite

jme2049 said:


> I used expanding foam, then grouted(grey) a few layers then added yacht varnish. While the varnish was drying I sprinkled some coco fibre on it. That was in a fbt tank and its all green now with algae growing on it. It's like a rock pool. Looks pretty cool.


 I s'pose i have already answered but,coco will look like my backgrounds do already,I'm talking stone,mate massive thanks for your interest Stu


----------



## s6t6nic6l

pssst: is da room ceiling insulated ?


----------



## Nix

Stu, immense build. I have been following this thread with much interest. now saving pennies for racking! My OH can cut all the ali for me at work so just got to buy it . This is definitely going to be my reference thread!


----------



## Morgan Freeman

How's it going? Any prog?


----------



## soundstounite

Nix said:


> Stu, immense build. I have been following this thread with much interest. now saving pennies for racking! My OH can cut all the ali for me at work so just got to buy it . This is definitely going to be my reference thread!


 Thankx man,anything we can do to help just shout mate,one thing i will say when you finally get to put it together...go overkill on the rivits...ie get some decent size ones eventhough they are a pain in the butt to put in its def worth it.


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> How's it going? Any prog?


 Yeah mate at it constantly another viv part built in garage,epoxy sorted yesterday just before we spoke will post more later on just stopped for grub,:lol2:and still fighting with the fake rock nonsense we will see on that mate,if it works i have been snapping so i can show yas all...... later man GRUB


----------



## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> pssst: is da room ceiling insulated ?


Geat shout mate....sorted,and the space above it....and the floor,and one of the walls...oh and a bit where one rack touches the outside wall:whistling2:


----------



## soundstounite

bit more to update then guys as promised:
Epoxy on and covered in eco/peat mix......tips have everything ready and check yourself that you are really ready Seal up the drain hole with a bit of masking tape so you don't get stuff on the floor,mix your 2 parts accurately,and go like the clappers. We try to have something elso that needs covering as well,ie prefoamed pots,film canasters........hmmmmmm another viv:lol2: so if you have anything leftover it is not waisted. Work from bottom to top don't forget a bit of pigment. You might want to mask of somethings too, if you are so inclined, anyway pics
drain taped










Azzie viv after coating pre...cleanup








Machetos the same


----------



## soundstounite

Azzie viv after clean up ...we leave 24hours for drying and then brush off any excess(small paintbrush),we also added a prefabbed pot and i put back the bit of bark for the pic
























Machetos at the same stage


----------



## Ron Magpie

It gets better an better- can't wait to see the result! What will you do then, though, mate? All that time on your hands...:whistling2:


----------



## soundstounite

Now all that is left is to finish the viv building and plant these up...ISH. 
Her's a silly one for ya ...waste not want not:lol2: a vivdoor handle,from a piece of glass cut out for the drain set.I filed of the rough edges with a sharpening stone stuck with silicone...SORTED









Oh yeah where gloves when using epoxy:mf_dribble:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> It gets better an better- can't wait to see the result! What will you do then, though, mate? All that time on your hands...:whistling2:


 1...SLEEP
2....GET SOME FROGS:lol2:
3...BREED SOME FROGS
4...Watch and chill as Shaz gets to see the amazing thing that is called metamorphosis
5 more sleep and maybe get back to writing some more songs and recording them, and ya never know i might just sneak in a few more animal paintings
DUDE thanks for the support and inspiration hell of along way to go though.....BRING IT ON
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

oh guys one last thing i meant to say earlier but forgot:blush: epoxy does not stick well to glass be aware if you go this way,plenty of silicone round the edges of the rockoflex will HOPEFULLY sort this...seeya


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> 1...SLEEP
> 2....GET SOME FROGS:lol2:
> 3...BREED SOME FROGS
> 4...Watch and chill as Shaz gets to see the amazing thing that is called metamorphosis
> 5 more sleep and maybe get back to writing some more songs and recording them, and ya never know i might just sneak in a few more animal paintings
> DUDE thanks for the support and inspiration hell of along way to go though.....BRING IT ON
> Stu


you forgot, organise an open day for all rfuk amphibian section :whistling2:


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> you forgot, organise an open day for all rfuk amphibian section :whistling2:


 :lol2::lol2:but your so much further on than me:Na_Na_Na_Na: Yes mate maybe one day when you've all got sommit to see,other than a few bits of ali and some glass boxes. Are you well mate? you been working away i have missed you of late


----------



## Morgan Freeman

What music do you make/write?


----------



## soundstounite

hmmm,now there's a Q..not much at the mo mate!! I am an out and out drummer,maybe 30 yrs, built a little studio for a cracking little band i was in but it went tits as they do then buggered me leg so well i was off work got some keys and it started from there,i have always heard all the other stuff in my head anyway,i think it would be called rock but not metal Shaz says its somewhere betwix floyd and Gabrial god knows it varies from real soft joanna to pretty noisey,if you are interested i could try and dig some out and send it to ya,i should still have your adress somewhere.Although i have played drums live since a kid i have never done any of this stuff live,as a drummer i oft get the Bonham comparison but am simply not in his league,ha ha but i am one noisey b:censor:d on full tilt


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> :lol2::lol2:but your so much further on than me:Na_Na_Na_Na: Yes mate maybe one day when you've all got sommit to see,other than a few bits of ali and some glass boxes. Are you well mate? you been working away i have missed you of late


 
i might have one late in the summer if all goes to plan, depends mostly if i open up the old frogroom outside, not much point at the moment with it all in the small bedroom not enough room to swing a bullfrog 

yer been working away for a bit, try not to do it to often though


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> i might have one late in the summer if all goes to plan, depends mostly if i open up the old frogroom outside, not much point at the moment with it all in the small bedroom not enough room to swing a bullfrog
> 
> yer been working away for a bit, try not to do it to often though


 well its the same here really mate, it is only a bedroom here too,and its getting smaller all the time:blush:.
glad your back home mate have a beer on me!! Rich do you get condensation on the top 1/4 of the door glass on the ent vivs?


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Question!

What do the vivs rest on, is it the aluminium or something else?


----------



## soundstounite

Yeah well sort of...front and back ali tube cross members are load bearing,the ones at the side do nothing as they are between the vivs,but they carry,the 3/4"angle which support the 5mm foamboard which sits flush with the ali tube. So one ends up with the weight distributed evenly across the whole of the viv floor(3/4" angle also on front and back cross members). This is topped off with polystyrene tiles 12mm so anytiny imperfections don't mess with the glass................you get?


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Got.

I'm already thinking at what point will I upgrade!? :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

soundstounite said:


> Yeah well sort of...front and back ali tube cross members are load bearing,the ones at the side do nothing as they are between the vivs,but they carry,the 3/4"angle which support the 5mm foamboard which sits flush with the ali tube. So one ends up with the weight distributed evenly across the whole of the viv floor(3/4" angle also on front and back cross members). This is topped off with polystyrene tiles 12mm so anytiny imperfections don't mess with the glass................you get?


 and don't forget the lighting bracket is helping too across the center...SORTED


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Got.
> 
> I'm already thinking at what point will I upgrade!? :lol2:


 Iknow kiddo i saw this comming a long time ago the lights used to drive me nuts as a kid so when i saw Marcs set up,i pretty much guessed thats where i was going...just how? took me a goodwhile to sort the how as no one could help and i couldn't find a uk supply of the anodised eventhough i found the site fairly early......they cost so much to buy,because of the labour as much as the materials i guess. Its just trying to find a way to do these things when you don't earn much,but it HAD to be done.Of course its the main reason why this whole thing is kinda backwards,not set one tank up get frogs,next tank get frogs etc.which would have been much more logical,so we have taken this huge gamble that we can do this but then,we both have looked after animals for yonks,both as pros so the workload that will come with looking after a fairfew froggies we are prepared for and as you know this is imensely important for Shaz well she's struggling and the frogs will be therapy for her i hope as they are so absorbing


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> well its the same here really mate, it is only a bedroom here too,and its getting smaller all the time:blush:.
> glad your back home mate have a beer on me!! Rich do you get condensation on the top 1/4 of the door glass on the ent vivs?


thanks Stu i had a few ciders earlier
the only vivs i get a real problem with condensation are the first few i made with really fine mesh, to fine to be honest ive already changed 2 to the mesh im using now and now theyre fine. Problem is Stu you need high humidity so are going to get some condensation on the glass, thats why some people add small fans under the doors blowing through the vent. Nothing worse than not being able to see the frogs though buddy :bash:


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> thanks Stu i had a few ciders earlier
> the only vivs i get a real problem with condensation are the first few i made with really fine mesh, to fine to be honest ive already changed 2 to the mesh im using now and now theyre fine. Problem is Stu you need high humidity so are going to get some condensation on the glass, thats why some people add small fans under the doors blowing through the vent. Nothing worse than not being able to see the frogs though buddy :bash:


 yeah we've talked extensively about the humidity i am trying out a little idea with a series of 10mm holes just in from the top of the doors if it doesnt work though i shall just put a bit of glass on top seemed worth a try though as i had all the gear out to sort the holes for the misting system i'll put some pics up as i sort it all just cabbaged tonite,was making a noise with a mate till way too late,then work,then vivs shant last long on this tonight,he said yawning


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> yeah we've talked extensively about the humidity i am trying out a little idea with a series of 10mm holes just in from the top of the doors if it doesnt work though i shall just put a bit of glass on top seemed worth a try though as i had all the gear out to sort the holes for the misting system i'll put some pics up as i sort it all just cabbaged tonite,was making a noise with a mate till way too late,then work,then vivs shant last long on this tonight,he said yawning


because you make your own vivs do you make them to ent design with 100mm glass then 100mm mesh then 200mm glass on the top, if so you could always reverse this and have the mesh nearer the front so that would help with airflow on the doors.
Rana dartfrog vivs have 2 smaller strips of mesh on the top perhaps that would be better


----------



## soundstounite

yeah mate with you...but was concearned about the airflow at the back,if i move the vent foward...Andrew suggested the twin vent the other day,,,what prompted my hand is seeing the difference taking the bungs out made to our first viv,from the misting holes and it took less time than cutting all them little glass strips and sanding the edges etc(i am getting a bit blase with me hole drilling,did both at the same time he he sat one on the other kerching!!!)


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> yeah mate with you...but was concearned about the airflow at the back,if i move the vent foward...Andrew suggested the twin vent the other day,,,what prompted my hand is seeing the difference taking the bungs out made to our first viv,from the misting holes and it took less time than cutting all them little glass strips and sanding the edges etc(i am getting a bit blase with me hole drilling,did both at the same time he he sat one on the other kerching!!!)


give it a go then like you say you can always cover them back up. 
Your just showing off now drilling 2 at a time, you do mean a drill in each hand dont you :Na_Na_Na_Na:

got to be honest i find cutting the glass easier now ive got a new expensive cutter and the fact i use new glass helps of course


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> give it a go then like you say you can always cover them back up.
> Your just showing off now drilling 2 at a time, you do mean a drill in each hand dont you :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> got to be honest i find cutting the glass easier now ive got a new expensive cutter and the fact i use new glass helps of course


 he he done me mate "drill in each hand" :lol2: but yes of course thats what i ment lol, agreed mate the cutter is everything and NEW glass hmmm:blush:.
Seriously though i am gonna mess with the design a bit to see if this can be eradicated the condensation the is,esp as the room is heated not the viv,and as you say i can always undo stuff easily if it doesn't pan out.
Mate have you ever used juncas in a viv,do you know of any tiny ones that grow slowly if you have?


----------



## soundstounite

Back to viv building,notched out the cork to accept the 2 small bit of glass that carry the mesh
















and then fitted the lid,i have put 5 10mm holes across the front in an effort to rid the doors of condensation ,no idea if this will work though,the mesh is sandwiched between the glass strips and the top








The runners are then added,i used a bit of 5mm foam board to make sure all the runners line up
















I cut all these with a hacksaw,then trimmed up with a stanley knife,just to be sure no little bits of plastic could get to frogs,siliconed in place they are... then a cover strip was added to the top and vent sides so there are no sharp edges from the mesh.The 5x10mm holes,i covered with bits of mesh and thats them sorted apart from the doors which i will sort when everything is cured,








and the 2 vivs amazing the effect "framing" the background has


----------



## Gaz1987

Looking good and starting to really take shape now keep up the good work


----------



## soundstounite

Gaz1987 said:


> Looking good and starting to really take shape now keep up the good work


 thanks Gaz tis a long old job mate but i likes a challenge,hows that managery of your mate seems your still breeding well, how big a tank do you use for the nuts mate?


----------



## geckodelta

Ok, so Ive come in a little late here, But you have done a great job..... I would love a set up like this XD :2thumb::notworthy:


----------



## Gaz1987

soundstounite said:


> thanks Gaz tis a long old job mate but i likes a challenge,hows that managery of your mate seems your still breeding well, how big a tank do you use for the nuts mate?


 It will all be well worth it in the end something to be proud of mate keep up the good work.:2thumb:
My frogs are doing well thanks still a few jobs to be done for some of them but im getting there.
At the moment my group are still in a 40 cube they seem to do really well in there but they are being upgraded this year to a 45x45x60 as the group has expanded a little now to 6 adults and some froglets.


----------



## GeckoD

Wow! Don't really know what to say about this one...Amazing! 

I wish I had the money for a build like this, and the space, and the ambition lol 
I have a large fish tank I intend to convert into a part terrestrial part aquatic frog terrarium thing and i might just steal a few of your ideas if that's ok?lol
I think the most unique thing about your build is that it is completely from scratch! Every element is pre-used somewhat or recycled, that's a good ethic to follow

The main reason I'm commenting is so I stay updated with your progress, not that your far off the finish line and I've just spent the last couple hours going through this entire thread...
But yeah, well done! Good stuff! and of course more pictures please!

All the best 
Darryl


----------



## soundstounite

Gaz1987 said:


> It will all be well worth it in the end something to be proud of mate keep up the good work.:2thumb:
> My frogs are doing well thanks still a few jobs to be done for some of them but im getting there.
> At the moment my group are still in a 40 cube they seem to do really well in there but they are being upgraded this year to a 45x45x60 as the group has expanded a little now to 6 adults and some froglets.


 Cheers Gaz means alot mate:notworthy:, yeah there will always be a few jobs,thanks for the advice on the nuts, hmmm thats got me thinking:gasp: ,can you give us a mini break down of what you believe to be the most important factors to your success with them?


----------



## soundstounite

geckodelta said:


> Ok, so Ive come in a little late here, But you have done a great job..... I would love a set up like this XD :2thumb::notworthy:


 thanks man but don't worry your in the early stages:lol2::whistling2:


----------



## Ron Magpie

Exciting- I keep looking out for the next update!:2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

GeckoD said:


> Wow! Don't really know what to say about this one...Amazing!
> 
> I wish I had the money for a build like this, and the space, and the ambition lol
> I have a large fish tank I intend to convert into a part terrestrial part aquatic frog terrarium thing and i might just steal a few of your ideas if that's ok?lol
> I think the most unique thing about your build is that it is completely from scratch! Every element is pre-used somewhat or recycled, that's a good ethic to follow
> 
> The main reason I'm commenting is so I stay updated with your progress, not that your far off the finish line and I've just spent the last couple hours going through this entire thread...
> But yeah, well done! Good stuff! and of course more pictures please!
> 
> All the best
> Darryl


 thanks for the reply Darryl,yeah the junk thing i do do a bit, just hate the amount we waste and of course costs,the biggy is these methods could possibly make dart keeping possible for a few more guys that it wouldn't be affordable to otherwise.
We still have a huge amount of work to do though yet mate,there is the small matter of18 or so vivs to build from scratch as you say,though once we are frogged it will be cool, but the whole process was never meant to be quick,i don't move like that:lol2:,don't want to run before we can walk.:2thumb: Steal away mate!!! Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Cobbled up some doors learnt a good lesson as well,with regards to the runners,ok you all know the drill as far as sixes go its been covered lots of times,but once you have your doors cut to size as well as sanding the edges pay particular attention to rounding off the corners,especially if you are using the runners with the little raised hump in the floor, it stopsthem from digging in and they then slide really well.








when you put your silicone line down to stop the flies getting out,run a strip of masking tape down the door egde,just inside where your bead will run your silicone gun will sit against it and help to keep it straight...hopefully:bash:








ooorrraaa 2 vivs in da rack ...GETIN:mf_dribble:








back to the drawing board...Mystie viv?...to be con't......


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Are you making species labels for the vivs? I really want to try some.


----------



## Ron Magpie

Morgan Freeman said:


> Are you making species labels for the vivs? I really want to try some.


 That's a pretty cool idea.


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Are you making species labels for the vivs? I really want to try some.


 Ahh mate thats totally out of my league,i simply wouldn't have a clue how to do that, although i have thought about it,i must say,it would be really nice for others if anyone ever came too,and would prevent having to constantly say" no that an azuereus"
It could be taken to the next level i suppose with info about temps /humidity etc,as well as geographical location of the morph in question,would love to see what you come up with.

mate are you ok?,just get the feeling your not to well at the mo. Stu


----------



## stewie m

looks wicked i love this racking 

not jelous much :lol2:


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> he he done me mate "drill in each hand" :lol2: but yes of course thats what i ment lol, agreed mate the cutter is everything and NEW glass hmmm:blush:.
> Seriously though i am gonna mess with the design a bit to see if this can be eradicated the condensation the is,esp as the room is heated not the viv,and as you say i can always undo stuff easily if it doesn't pan out.
> Mate have you ever used juncas in a viv,do you know of any tiny ones that grow slowly if you have?


No Stu never used juncas in a viv, theres a few about in the garden centres and places that corkscrew one looks good but i dont know a lot about them to be honest. If i like something i just give it a try see what happens. What viv do you want the juncas for the mysties viv is it


----------



## Morgan Freeman

soundstounite said:


> Ahh mate thats totally out of my league,i simply wouldn't have a clue how to do that, although i have thought about it,i must say,it would be really nice for others if anyone ever came too,and would prevent having to constantly say" no that an azuereus"
> It could be taken to the next level i suppose with info about temps /humidity etc,as well as geographical location of the morph in question,would love to see what you come up with.
> 
> mate are you ok?,just get the feeling your not to well at the mo. Stu


I'll make some then! :lol2:

Get pic. Put info. Print out. Laminate.

Me? Yeah I'm fine! My illness plays up over winter a lot but as of last week feeling much better :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> looks wicked i love this racking
> 
> not jelous much :lol2:


 thanks mate well chuffed with how these 2 have turned out especially Shaz's Azzie thought it would be in the planting that one! 
:blush: i reckon2 of us have just spent from around 4;30 till 12 making a bit of substrate and planting 2 vivs Iknow its the best bit but bloody hell they are only 50x50,have taken pics but to late now.....knackered


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> No Stu never used juncas in a viv, theres a few about in the garden centres and places that corkscrew one looks good but i dont know a lot about them to be honest. If i like something i just give it a try see what happens. What viv do you want the juncas for the mysties viv is it


 yep bang on mate,am trying to create that rock face ,thought juncas might work but really don't know yet, thanks for the reply mate. This mysty viv, if it works, and have my doubts bigstyle, should be quite different.


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> I'll make some then! :lol2:
> 
> Get pic. Put info. Print out. Laminate.
> 
> Me? Yeah I'm fine! My illness plays up over winter a lot but as of last week feeling much better :2thumb:


 Go for it mate: victory:, as before would love to see the results but its the last line that is really cool:2thumb::2thumb: stoked bro.,ahhh mate i love f:censor:ing about planting these tanks up its such a crack,my god i thought i was slow on stuff but after tonite projected finish date has just moved 10 years:gasp::gasp::lol2:...holy crap its only a few plants and a nice bit a compo special mix.......................................DOH


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> yep bang on mate,am trying to create that rock face ,thought juncas might work but really don't know yet, thanks for the reply mate. This mysty viv, if it works, and have my doubts bigstyle, should be quite different.


 I use Acorus (Japanese rush) in my FBT tank- it does fine rooted down into the water but with emergent leaves.


----------



## Gaz1987

I will Pm you about the Castis save clogging your thread mate


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I use Acorus (Japanese rush) in my FBT tank- it does fine rooted down into the water but with emergent leaves.


 Not aware of that mate,i will endevor to find out more when not so mentally fried,how big does it get with time buddy?...and of course thanks for the idea mate: victory:


----------



## soundstounite

Gaz1987 said:


> I will Pm you about the Castis save clogging your thread mate


 Cheers kiddo your a star


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Ron Magpie said:


> I use Acorus (Japanese rush) in my FBT tank- it does fine rooted down into the water but with emergent leaves.


What's the water level? I have like an inch of water.....


----------



## Ron Magpie

Morgan Freeman said:


> What's the water level? I have like an inch of water.....


 The water is a couple of inches deep- I've planted the rush into the 'island' which is made of gravel, pebbles and driftwood- it just roots down through.


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Ron Magpie said:


> The water is a couple of inches deep- I've planted the rush into the 'island' which is made of gravel, pebbles and driftwood- it just roots down through.


Well maybe I'll try it.


----------



## soundstounite

I suppose that planting the tanks is such a crack to us for a variety of reasons but a big part of it is it is the culmination of a lot of graft,from cleaning old glass/building the viv to the time propergating the plants ...its the culmination of everything really ...untill the frogs come that is, so its something we look foward to and have a complete ball while doing it,but we ain't quick as i said last night :gasp:
anyway this is what we have been up to,our first endevorour was to cobble up a more free draining substrate,so to our previous,peat/xaxim/ecoearth/orchid bark mix we added a lot of chopped oak and plum twigs








chopped hazel leaves and chopped oakleaves,simply fold and cut with sissors
















We put the twigs and orchid bark as a base drainage layer and then a layer containing a mix of 50% chopped leaves /50% fine orchid/xaxim/eco/peat this was topped off with chopped oakleaves and finally whole oak and clematis armandii , haven't a clue how this will work but will keep experimenting untill we find what we are after.I will wait a week or so just in case there are any probs with slugs or snails but each leaf was hand washed (itold ya we are nuts) so we might be ok and then chuck an absolute shed load of springs and woods in, though i know we will have missed loads of other little beasties we are not really concearned,we had 2 different types of parasitic wasp turn up in out first viv but they were easily removed and put back outside,where they can carry on their good work in our garden.
So here you are Shaz's Azzie viv
































Plants cost virtually nothing all home grown ...mosses native(will they last so chucked in some epiweb moss mix into the moss as an insurance),wood: oak native.
Our Machetos viv








































Vivs with doors on
















And 2 vivs in da rack








Just a little note to say cheers for all the support ...help...advice you guys have chucked at us
BRING IT ON 
Stu & Shaz


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

soundstounite said:


> I suppose that planting the tanks is such a crack to us for a variety of reasons but a big part of it is it is the culmination of a lot of graft,from cleaning old glass/building the viv to the time propergating the plants ...its the culmination of everything really ...untill the frogs come that is, so its something we look foward to and have a complete ball while doing it,but we ain't quick as i said last night :gasp:
> anyway this is what we have been up to,our first endevorour was to cobble up a more free draining substrate,so to our previous,peat/xaxim/ecoearth/orchid bark mix we added a lot of chopped oak and plum twigs
> image
> chopped hazel leaves and chopped oakleaves,simply fold and cut with sissors
> image
> image
> We put the twigs and orchid bark as a base drainage layer and then a layer containing a mix of 50% chopped leaves /50% fine orchid/xaxim/eco/peat this was topped off with chopped oakleaves and finally whole oak and clematis armandii , haven't a clue how this will work but will keep experimenting untill we find what we are after.I will wait a week or so just in case there are any probs with slugs or snails but each leaf was hand washed (itold ya we are nuts) so we might be ok and then chuck an absolute shed load of springs and woods in, though i know we will have missed loads of other little beasties we are not really concearned,we had 2 different types of parasitic wasp turn up in out first viv but they were easily removed and put back outside,where they can carry on their good work in our garden.
> So here you are Shaz's Azzie viv
> image
> image
> image
> image
> Plants cost virtually nothing all home grown ...mosses native(will they last so chucked in some epiweb moss mix into the moss as an insurance),wood: oak native.
> Our Machetos viv
> image
> image
> image
> image
> image
> Vivs with doors on
> image
> image
> And 2 vivs in da rack
> image
> Just a little note to say cheers for all the support ...help...advice you guys have chucked at us
> BRING IT ON
> Stu & Shaz


Stu, they look really really good, Just need a couple of bright frogs to go in there now. Nice work:2thumb:


----------



## richie.b

thems bloody lovely looking vivs mate, and if your thinking of castis off gaz get them i had some off him before christmas stunning theyre :mf_dribble:
and washing every leaf and blade of moss and every plant leaf and flower man you got some patience, youll be bathing the fruitfly before you use them next 

so do you buy that cork background in bulk then


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> thems bloody lovely looking vivs mate, and if your thinking of castis off gaz get them i had some off him before christmas stunning theyre :mf_dribble:
> and washing every leaf and blade of moss and every plant leaf and flower man you got some patience, youll be bathing the fruitfly before you use them next
> 
> so do you buy that cork background in bulk then


 Matty thanks dude..... yeah they so need the frogs mate,and a bit of time for everything to settle.
:lol2:Richie ,:2thumb: bathing ffs...mate i'm sorry kiddo wait till you see the little edible life jackets she's made em so they dont drown,:lol2:Seriously mate was talking about the leaves specifically,and mainly because of the hazel from our garden,which having been organic for 20 plus years is absolutely rammed with life especially slugs and snails,and it was these and their eggs i was trying to get,i want all the other stuff just not those so thought that a wash in my filtered rain water should take those out without messing too much with the microfauna, much of which is probably in the leaves as well as on them,so there was a tiny bit of method in my madness,not much but a tiny bit:lol2: As far as Gaz and his castis i think he is a cracking breeder i remember you saying about his frogs as well, the nuts really intregue us too, but they are a bit on for us yet gonna get some beginners frogs first before we tackle the little guys
Yeah mate the cork is a good point I did buy a job lot off a guy on ebay but it was just a job lot that i got lucky on.
lastly thanks for the kind words about the vivs,I am really chuffed with how shaz's tank turned out,she is thrilled buy it so that was a huge thing for me,as you can imagine,cheers matee Stu


----------



## Gaz1987

Viv looks great Stu cant wait to see the rest 

I think your showing off abit now with hand washing each leaf and edible life jackets :lol2:


----------



## stewie m

great work again stu


----------



## soundstounite

Gaz1987 said:


> Viv looks great Stu cant wait to see the rest
> 
> I think your showing off abit now with hand washing each leaf and edible life jackets :lol2:


 well not really mate showing off that is,well ok the edible life jackets are,but we have impregnated them with vit supps.: victory: and as always the serious bit thanks mate got to sort the rocks out on the mystie viv next god only knows how that will go.


----------



## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> great work again stu


 THANKYOU BRO, Means alot mate!!!! and the chelmsford/colchester ref comes because me dad lives there ...and he's also nuts just like me.:blush:


----------



## stewie m

soundstounite said:


> THANKYOU BRO, Means alot mate!!!! and the chelmsford/colchester ref comes because me dad lives there ...and he's also nuts just like me.:blush:


ha ha cool 

were are u from


----------



## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> ha ha cool
> 
> were are u from


 Midlander mate,though grew up in the south west,dev/ corn but ended up back up in mids in the lost village of Poden


----------



## stewie m

soundstounite said:


> Midlander mate,though grew up in the south west,dev/ corn but ended up back up in mids in the lost village of Poden


born and grow up here


----------



## brysaa2

Yet again, really nice vivs mate. Looked pretty much through your whole thread again haha, really interesting and making me want to start with darts too. Hope it stays all good for you


----------



## MP reptiles

These look insane better than zoos i say ( :


----------



## soundstounite

brysaa2 said:


> Yet again, really nice vivs mate. Looked pretty much through your whole thread again haha, really interesting and making me want to start with darts too. Hope it stays all good for you


 ha ha that would be a cool thing for a non dartkeeper:blush: to inspire someone else to keep em,though not much longer frogless i hope,thanks for the kindness kiddo and hope all is well down there where i think of as home....Stu


----------



## soundstounite

MP reptiles said:


> These look insane better than zoos i say ( :


 cheers dude all this postitive is really keeping me at it,a good day's glass cutting today and maybe rockwork later,thankyou mate for the compliment it really means a hell of a lot yours Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Well still grinding away another 1/2 built tank reaches water testing and woopee!!! passes...OOORRRAA I think Shaz will need two tanks of Azzie though should keep her busy and she's gotta have her fav's from 2 different line and me gets to watch her design another:lol2:








Meanwhile...back at the ranch:whistling2:,we are trying to create a fake rock background for the Mysties, total agreement with Ron here most look pants so after yonks of messing about carving polystyrene, god knows if this will get to the viv, we'll see, at least i get to do what I'm good at...MAKING A MESS:gasp: will see if i can find the early pics to give you a head start on what we are up to


----------



## MP reptiles

Sure this one will look stunninh as well wish i had these  lol


----------



## stewie m

fantasic 

but can u stop posting pics your making me jealous and wanting to do so bad :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Cool i did up load them,so much going on wasn't sure,
So started out with a bit of poly, cut to size for the LHS and marked out a rough drawing


----------



## soundstounite

then added a second bit and cut to the drawing of the first
















next started the messy bit,I am using a broken hacksaw blade and a stanley knife as tools ...mainly the hacksaw,








next over laid the 2nd sheet with a third and cut to shape
















Then made one hell of a mess getting some 3d into the flats,bare with me well I find the other pics ,they are strewn about all over the place:blush:


----------



## soundstounite

MP reptiles said:


> Sure this one will look stunninh as well wish i had these  lol


 cheers kiddo I'll just do Shaz's bidding as too the Azzie Shes got it going on!! honestly not sure what will happen with these so called rocks though, tis a cunundrum.


----------



## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> fantasic
> 
> but can u stop posting pics your making me jealous and wanting to do so bad :lol2:


:lol2: you keep at it mate,your viv will look cracking soon, but sorry mate more pics on their way, :blush: at least I found em.....thought I had completely lost the plot,hmmm maybe thats already happened to be fair:mf_dribble:


----------



## MP reptiles

soundstounite said:


> cheers kiddo I'll just do Shaz's bidding as too the Azzie Shes got it going on!! honestly not sure what will happen with these so called rocks though, tis a cunundrum.


 once you have got everything in the viv and you can see how everything works in proportion im sure youll know what to do with it =D


----------



## soundstounite

MP reptiles said:


> once you have got everything in the viv and you can see how everything works in proportion im sure youll know what to do with it =D


 thanks mate I know what I'm after its just methodology,(OMG did i just say that:lol2, big challenge,trying to work with the frog safe backgroung stuff ,if i felt safe with paints for the frogs then i really wouldn't be worried its trying to do it in epoxy and rockoflex ,but then thats the crack for me,been thinking for along time on this even got rockdust drying out ready as a base pigment,shades of grey me thinks,our inspiration is the rockface on dendrobase, as before we'll see:lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

gott em:2thumb: after we had made a mess and added another thin layer of poly it looked like this
















we then added the actual back so I could start to work through the corner,had a constant battle to get away from the straight lines that are everywhere in this, anyway back cut and fitted


----------



## MP reptiles

soundstounite said:


> thanks mate I know what I'm after its just methodology,(OMG did i just say that:lol2, big challenge,trying to work with the frog safe backgroung stuff ,if i felt safe with paints for the frogs then i really wouldn't be worried its trying to do it in epoxy and rockoflex ,but then thats the crack for me,been thinking for along time on this even got rockdust drying out ready as a base pigment,shades of grey me thinks,our inspiration is the rockface on dendrobase, as before we'll see:lol2:


 Ye good luck with that i have no experience with that kind of stuff but it sounds like theres a lot to consider:lol2: but ur doing an amzing job cant wait to see the end job:notworthy:


----------



## soundstounite

I next i offered up the "rocks" to the viv,cut the back to the exact size,and then siliconed it all together,
















One of the massive benefits of making your own vivs is that you can get at the background,half way through.... so much easier than with a viv that has been completely put together, then earlier tonite finished up the carving of these and then started the next,erm mountain:lol2:
one bit of poly cut to shape in 2d








and then added a second and set about them with the trusty 1/2 hacksaw blade,(proper expensive these tools:mf_dribble: ok I broke it acidentally...but still better than the bloody landfill:lol2..... 1/2 done,








and pretty much there but not quite
















And thats pretty much where we are at tonite,still loads to do on this which seems to be be our stop gap viv...ie the one i turn to when there is nothing else, 'cause stuff is drying of whatever.He he and 'cause I'm twisted I'm not even gonna mention led lights:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2: so don't ask just be pateint seeya Stu


----------



## soundstounite

MP reptiles said:


> Ye good luck with that i have no experience with that kind of stuff but it sounds like theres a lot to consider:lol2: but ur doing an amzing job cant wait to see the end job:notworthy:


 Cheers man,the thing is, with this gear, (that no one else seems to use) is its quite timeconsuming and i suppose expensive, but once its all together its incredibly stong as a background,definitely worth a look if your hoping like us that the viv will stay together for a while it seems to be a great set of products, only time will tell how good though...Seeya Stu


----------



## sambridge15

some outstanding vivs there as always just wish i wasnt so limited with space and money :lol2: half the plants i get for vivs is because there reduced to clear from homebase


----------



## soundstounite

sambridge15 said:


> some outstanding vivs there as always just wish i wasnt so limited with space and money :lol2: half the plants i get for vivs is because there reduced to clear from homebase


 tell me about it Sam, we do the same and of course buy a good un and breed the hell out of it,trouble is me old mate it takes so so long, don't worry mate if you really set your heart on something its always doable,its just bloody hard waiting...bloody hard,cheers mate for the lovely words about the vivs,its bordering on surreal actually when you see what we start with, and how they end up after some jiggery pokery, i must get a pic up of the glass as i find it,tis total rubbish,but as you say needs must!!


----------



## Binksy

OMG, this thread is amazing. Well done. :notworthy:

Would love to do something like this. May have to get rid of one of the kids and I can have their room.. Lol......


----------



## soundstounite

Binksy said:


> OMG, this thread is amazing. Well done. :notworthy:
> 
> Would love to do something like this. May have to get rid of one of the kids and I can have their room.. Lol......


 :lol2:ha child removal is always an option,we actually thought ours had left ,erm but he came back:gasp:,hes now got the bottom shelf of the longest rack as his bunk,nah i jest his room is still intact:lol2:
He he been wanting to do this since childhood,me darling's illness has kinda helped me along somewhat,she so loves these frogs,and she needs to be occupied by them,she'll do alot of the looking after,she's great at this stockman lark,in other fields so she's got the job:lol2: Thanks for the kindness mate , much appreciated


----------



## soundstounite

O MF:censor:ing G spent 5 hours today trying to stop one simple drain set from leaking,i can plumb my house but every trick I could come up with failed bloody everything,so then i tried a different drainset,SORTED one attempt,rummin heck there is a rubber gasket to seal it, but maybe not !!!!!!! nuff said buy a spare and try it, DOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHH
the lights are on......but nobody's home......OR WHAT


----------



## MaMExotics

looking gd :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

MaMExotics said:


> looking gd :2thumb:


 Ta mate though feeling a bit dumb at presant,had so much i wanted to do today
Stu


----------



## onemanandhisfrog

WOW stu this thread hasnt disapointed atall, if i ever get to the point of building a frog room then i want it to look like this. so much inspiration for me and it might help me convince my fiance how good a frog room can look too! 

Truly amazing inspirational work keep it up :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

onemanandhisfrog said:


> WOW stu this thread hasnt disapointed atall, if i ever get to the point of building a frog room then i want it to look like this. so much inspiration for me and it might help me convince my fiance how good a frog room can look too!
> 
> Truly amazing inspirational work keep it up :2thumb:


 Ha THANKYOU, my mate,well after all it was YOU that asked for the detail, did i get enough in:lol2:,ahh mate just cool to give a bit back esp to you buddy,tis a long old job though,but such a crack, 'tis only once that someone like me gets to do this,ha don't worry mate we will keep at it, am at the stage now where i wake up having slept frogs and sorted the next hurdle in my sleep:mf_dribble:ya never know we might even have some frogs one day,well actually the clocks ticking,great to see ya here mate Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Little bit more to show on the rocky saga,minds been a bit distracted by other froggy stuff(more later) and very poorly lady , anyway a bit more rocks
















the bits on the left will be carved up when time allows but will be pretty low in structure,if we are getting this right,still don't know on this,take care all Stu


----------



## soundstounite

ye gads,a trip to the doc with Shaz,and then 12 hours of grinding it out,the results....6 bits of foam board cut to size and holes for drainage,6 meters of led lighting made pretty much from scratch, all cut./soldered.... heatsinks made from ali chanel 1200 lumen/meter 6500 kalvin all in place and waiting now for silicon to dry,thanks to Shaz's dad "sparky" for helping making it happen,and one totally/unbelieveably crackered wannabe frog keeper,and maybe pics tomorrow if we got it all ....ha IF
OUCH...Stu


----------



## richie.b

Stu someone on dw selling mysties at hamm for 60 euros each if your interested, oh and keep up the good work :whistling2:


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Stu someone on dw selling mysties at hamm for 60 euros each if your interested, oh and keep up the good work :whistling2:


 wont be able to get there mate ....do you know anyone who could pic up for me mate, ow and an even bigger thanks than normal kiddo you OK?


----------



## soundstounite

Oh and mate is the link your new site?


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Edit: Misread!


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Oh and mate is the link your new site?


Yer its my new site, got to finish it though, im to bloody old for these things Stu :blush:

I dont think im going to hamm myself either buddy, supprisingly little interest on the minibus so decided not to bother, and my mates are not that bothered about going either and cant find anyone that wants to go.
Ask on dw if anyone can get them for you only thing is if he hasnt got a table ide be a bit wary unless i was going myself.
speak to musti he might be able to help

Athravan on here said she would pick stuff up for me but its got to be picked up from her shop in cardiff which is ok for me


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Yer its my new site, got to finish it though, im to bloody old for these things Stu :blush:
> 
> I dont think im going to hamm myself either buddy, supprisingly little interest on the minibus so decided not to bother, and my mates are not that bothered about going either and cant find anyone that wants to go.
> Ask on dw if anyone can get them for you only thing is if he hasnt got a table ide be a bit wary unless i was going myself.
> speak to musti he might be able to help
> 
> Athravan on here said she would pick stuff up for me but its got to be picked up from her shop in cardiff which is ok for me


 Eric is the geru of histos mate if he does them i guess his mystyies should be totally sound,so tired ,not really thinking straight,will post Q's on sat time to think but have already checked out the link thanks kiddo truely greatful.
and agreed mate TOTALLY too old for this but, I don't think that till afterwards!!!!! Total joy mate her and that duck ...hell thats keeping her head up!!
Mate congrats on your new site:mf_dribble:
oh and a very important thing for all that saw DROUGHT in the amazon....led's running at aprox 1/3rd of tubes guys we so need to be aware of this stuff as well as our own personal pennies...nuff said


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Edit: Misread!


 what were ya thinking mate?


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Eric is the geru of histos mate if he does them i guess his mystyies should be totally sound,so tired ,not really thinking straight,will post Q's on sat time to think but have already checked out the link thanks kiddo truely greatful.
> and agreed mate TOTALLY too old for this but, I don't think that till afterwards!!!!! Total joy mate her and that duck ...hell thats keeping her head up!!
> Mate congrats on your new site:mf_dribble:
> oh and a very important thing for all that saw DROUGHT in the amazon....led's running at aprox 1/3rd of tubes guys we so need to be aware of this stuff as well as our own personal pennies...nuff said


No erics frogs are sound just meant ide be wary of paying upfront for stuff if someone didnt have a table and you had to rely on someone finding him amonst all those people at hamm
ive just made enquiries about a few nice things, poor credit card going to get a battering :whistling2:

i think morgan left a comment about my website then realised you said is that my website


----------



## Morgan Freeman

soundstounite said:


> what were ya thinking mate?


Thought you asked where the link for richie's site was.


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> No erics frogs are sound just meant ide be wary of paying upfront for stuff if someone didnt have a table and you had to rely on someone finding him amonst all those people at hamm
> ive just made enquiries about a few nice things, poor credit card going to get a battering :whistling2:
> 
> i think morgan left a comment about my website then realised you said is that my website


 Pum pum pum pum.....pum pum pum pum.....pum p pum luvverly pums will be the order of the day eh? Rich....thanks for the knowledge about getting frogs from hamm ...thats the voice of experiance,not age...honest mate:blush: talking, vivs are looking great on your site kiddo,if i was a Rich man,now that was almost clever...and not a diy..er i'd be taking your arm of at the other side eh? all the luck in the world with it kiddo:2thumb: actually i could do with a bit of that meself,he he, But ya know that condensation thang and the 5 little holes....HA i just think i might have cracked it,see ya can teach an ol' dog new tricks after all,will show more soon and will know more and be cirtain in a couple of months.
for anyone else curious about the led malarky...15.6 watt/meter wont get time for pics now but managed to squeeze a few in well working all credit for the ground work to Paul H. we just ran with the ball...Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Thought you asked where the link for richie's site was.


 Nah when talking to a dummy like me on computers mate easily done,thanks for the intended help , nice that for once i got it on my own...DOH:lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Ok here are the finishing pics of the mystie rocks as far as the carving goes
















and after a bosh over with a heat gun and chucked in the viv for,da photo
















a bit of detail as usual trying to show how much the heatgun changes the surface








Hmmmmmm well ya know those nutty holes along the front of the top to stop condensation on the doors well the jury is still out BUT this was yeasterday while the room was warm
other vivs.....
















and the new uns sorry only took one pic i think








might just be down to room position but have a hunch its not...time will tell the other is equally clear just a bit of condensation on both tanks but its tiny. 
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

maybe someone has spotted(but i doubt it) different lighting on the last pic its led
here is a finished shot of the new lights all in place, the whole rack is using just 93.6 watts so around erm 7.8 watts /viv,aprox cost with ali channel cable etc around £25/30/viv and i just need 3m more led strip to sort the other 60 rack.


----------



## soundstounite

ahhh man thought you lot would have picked up on the homemade lights and the numbers:whistling2: might be the future,well might is an understatement i suppose,who knows....apart from uvb tubes and dinosaurs have sommit in common:lol2:
clad the rocks in rockoflex,up till this stage no worries tis the finish that is the unknown, ie using epoxy and still getting a rocklike finish,if we get that wired i will be shocked, anyway couple a pics anyone:lol2:


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

Looking really good Stu, really like that. Will look awesome with moss growing on that, will look really realistic and plants all over. looking forward to seeing this in the viv:2thumb:


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Pum pum pum pum.....pum pum pum pum.....pum p pum luvverly pums will be the order of the day eh? Rich....thanks for the knowledge about getting frogs from hamm ...thats the voice of experiance,not age...honest mate:blush: talking, vivs are looking great on your site kiddo,if i was a Rich man,now that was almost clever...and not a diy..er i'd be taking your arm of at the other side eh? all the luck in the world with it kiddo:2thumb: actually i could do with a bit of that meself,he he, But ya know that condensation thang and the 5 little holes....HA i just think i might have cracked it,see ya can teach an ol' dog new tricks after all,will show more soon and will know more and be cirtain in a couple of months.
> for anyone else curious about the led malarky...15.6 watt/meter wont get time for pics now but managed to squeeze a few in well working all credit for the ground work to Paul H. we just ran with the ball...Stu


yes Stu pums it is escudo, nancy and cristobal to be precise
and thank you for your kind words about my vivs but in all honesty you dont need to be a rich man your doing bloody fine with your own vivs.
So the holes in the top might have worked well thats good, i havent got a problem with condensation in the vivs that much my problem is the condensation running down the walls in the room :devil:

and im liking the rocks to excellent work as always :notworthy:


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> yes Stu pums it is escudo, nancy and cristobal to be precise
> and thank you for your kind words about my vivs but in all honesty you dont need to be a rich man your doing bloody fine with your own vivs.
> So the holes in the top might have worked well thats good, i havent got a problem with condensation in the vivs that much my problem is the condensation running down the walls in the room :devil:
> 
> and im liking the rocks to excellent work as always :notworthy:


 he he thought it might be,buddy:2thumbpum)........ This you will be able to help me with,basti.... town?,what is the morph name of the little leopards we call em(spose should be jaguar really) orange background uppermost with black spots pale underneath,we are aware of several differing forms of basti can you give me /us more?...escudo,red top blue underneath? Stunning:mf_dribble: WANT ..... nancy...spotty blue toes red? cristobel cant think.
Mate silly though on the walls could you isolate them from the warmth with polystyrene sheet kinda drylining done cheep, could easily be removeable if it made things worse. and i think you missed the "Rich man" comment(although it seems eons since i wrote that) twas a pun on your name mate:blush: ,leastways i think thats what i meant, still stonking vivs. We'll see on the rocks kiddo,hard bit next notice i have been cunning ha the bit on the left is me trial to sort a method, without messing with the bigger bit.


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Looking really good Stu, really like that. Will look awesome with moss growing on that, will look really realistic and plants all over. looking forward to seeing this in the viv:2thumb:


 thanks Matty,but this rocky side if it works like i have a picture in me old bonce will be relatively bare which is why the finish is all,yeah it will be planted,mate clock the mysties cliff on dendrobase,this is a bit of a nod to that,gonna be a few broms about mosses and grasses if i can find what i want might use dwarf kyoto if nothing else crops up, ha intregued i am on where this will go, thanks for the kind words mate 't will be cool with some little spotty guys clambering on it Stu


----------



## s6t6nic6l

great work there on that "wall". well impressed with the detail you put into the build. well done. thin, light coatings from now on eh. you don't wanna lose any of that detail.

p.s. did you design the centre rock on your good self with you looking to the left :whistling2:


----------



## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> great work there on that "wall". well impressed with the detail you put into the build. well done. thin, light coatings from now on eh. you don't wanna lose any of that detail.
> 
> p.s. did you design the centre rock on your good self with you looking to the left :whistling2:


 Well thats the method i would love to use Nic but prob is i can't thin the epoxy( well i don't think i can but will try to find out more ),totally hear what you are getting at but don't want to use paints (even though that would be an easier route,especailly for me,having painted so much from art to cars to narrow boats bla bla). I have wondered about the point you are making right the way through this rock thing but the only way to find out is to have a shot,but as you say tis all about trying to keep that detail. 
:lol2: nah unfortunately not mate did think of the secert self portait,but the viv wasn't wide enough to get my nose in...bugger,but i'm sure you recognise Morgans eyebrows,they look the same from the only pic i have seen of him as on his avatar:blush:...ahh sorry mate,was put up to that,she is a cruel and wicked lady:whip:


----------



## soundstounite

we painted the rockoflex with epoxy,brushed out really thin ,i added a bit of black pigment to it,and probably too much,as we added the rockdust eventhough it was a pale grey almost white ,and slightly coloured with a red brown,try as i might i could not get the rocks as pale as i wanted and eventually ran out of dust,finish is cool though,detail seems tp have been preserved not sure on colour,the pics that follow are not showing the colour correctly,tis a bit darker, in the flesh.
The rockdust was sourced fron a granite merchant as a paste which we simply dried out and crushed back to dust
this pic is nearest for colour
















































as before what do ya think ,I'm still not sure,although the plants should show well i am not convinced,bit tooclose to mystie ground colour i fear
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

HMMMMMMM earlier in the week i made some planters








see a cautionary tail:blush:
well now back at it,pretty much got the background sorted to day on the mysties viv
























sorry pics a bit crap finished a bit too late,more later,water tested the histo viv ooorrra pass!!! and got a tiny bit done on the 2nd azzie viv got to make a load of stones for Shaz will show more soon seeya:lol2: Stu


----------



## jme2049

That rock looks fantastic mate, good job:2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

jme2049 said:


> That rock looks fantastic mate, good job:2thumb:


 cheers dude not quite got the colour i wanted but 2 out a 3 aint too bad for a first shot,was thinking t'other day,apart from the plants we only have 3 sources of backgroung,rocks,wood an soil so its something i really need to learn she's now got me on stones i have let me self in for a whole world of pain here:lol2:


----------



## dragonbeardo

*wow!*

Absolutely awesome! read every one of the 43 pages just now what amazig patience u have buddy, well done its excellent...... cant wait t see finished article


been great reading all those pages and like following a great series on tv, only this been much better, now just waiting for final episode lol wd:no1:


----------



## soundstounite

dragonbeardo said:


> Absolutely awesome! read every one of the 43 pages just now what amazig patience u have buddy, well done its excellent...... cant wait t see finished article
> 
> 
> been great reading all those pages and like following a great series on tv, only this been much better, now just waiting for final episode lol wd:no1:


 'Ello thanks mate,bloody hell is it really 43 now:gasp:,yep mate its been a long old mission,and just finished washing up after a very hard party/music thang (callled a friday),:2thumb:and a bit more progress on both the second Azzie and the mysties set up,i am properly too old for this:lol2: glad you enjoyed it!!! he he TV series just wait till i work out how to do a vid on my camera,hmmm on second thoughts maybe best not to wait:lol2: i am not the sharpest tool in the box on these things:blush:.
As before though mate still a hell of a long way to go,and sure there will be more results and more pitfalls though hopefully not quite on the scale of this week ouch!!! But tis still a joy not least is all the cool dudes that have willingly chucked their time and thoughts at us,bring it on ....frogs soon will be the icing,now i cant wait :lol2:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

I thought some of you, might be interested in these,they are natives,they were growing right next to a very fast flowing stream and very wet the moss especailly interests me as i have not seen it anywhere else,but i also just love those liverworts,they have been in side under lights for about 3 weeks now the new growth is totally amazing on them








To the left the ferns are Polypodium vulgare(common polypody) next Asplenium scolopendrium (harts tongue) the seaweed :lol2: is a liverwort i think its Lunaria cruciata (cresent cup) and there is some of that moss at the top above the scolopendrium


----------



## Ron Magpie

Mega-cool!:2thumb: I've never had much luck with ferns in vivs- although they do very well outside in a woodland area the boyf and I made in the garden- we have 14 or 15 varieties there, and they are all flourishing in soil largely composed of broken down bark chips- we top up with fresh every year. I only had success with liverworts in one tank- never found out the variety, but it came in with a plant from a garden centre.:lol2:


----------



## Morgan Freeman

This is why I want an outdoor viv!


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Mega-cool!:2thumb: I've never had much luck with ferns in vivs- although they do very well outside in a woodland area the boyf and I made in the garden- we have 14 or 15 varieties there, and they are all flourishing in soil largely composed of broken down bark chips- we top up with fresh every year. I only had success with liverworts in one tank- never found out the variety, but it came in with a plant from a garden centre.:lol2:


 Thanks Ron,yeah its surprising most ferns like a bit of dryness,the constant wet of our vivs makes most rot off that said i guess placement helps alot get them in in the air flow and they will sometimes do, the boston somebody said it was, in the 60 cube seems to be doing,its actually put out new runners which are rooting into the cork.
Out of the two above natives its the polypody that i have real hopes for its the one that never had probs. with the damp at the fern nursery we worked at.Yep we too have em stashed all over our garden,i keep planting trees so lots of shaded bits for them,have you got any of the Nipponicum pictum(jap painted ferns) grey with reddish markings....they are deciduous but stunning plants don't think they would stand a chance though in a viv,blummin shame.
As far as the 'worts go truely a case of we will wait and see although they are loving it at the mo,we also get them in any pots that have been standing without being messed with in our gh,they seem to thrive in the summer warmth /humidity,its all about those cold months again i guess as per the mosses


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> This is why I want an outdoor viv!


 yeah i can see that mate maybe once all this dart malarky is sorted we might have a shot at something out side,have you made a start on yours yet mate? Still have thoughts about the greenhouse but it will be full of veg and dartyplants soon so i guess it will be yonks before anything much happens there,although i must insulate it before next winter as the plant collection will probably go nuts over the summer,hopefully at a faster rate than i can build vivs:whistling2:


----------



## Morgan Freeman

soundstounite said:


> yeah i can see that mate maybe once all this dart malarky is sorted we might have a shot at something out side,have you made a start on yours yet mate? Still have thoughts about the greenhouse but it will be full of veg and dartyplants soon so i guess it will be yonks before anything much happens there,although i must insulate it before next winter as the plant collection will probably go nuts over the summer,hopefully at a faster rate than i can build vivs:whistling2:


Given up on the idea tbh. Too much to take care off plus other life type stuff getting in the way.


----------



## serpentsupplies

not too sure but if they are ferns etc just from outside, then alot of them actually prefer to be in alot darker places than you wouldm imagine.


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Thanks Ron,yeah its surprising most ferns like a bit of dryness,the constant wet of our vivs makes most rot off that said i guess placement helps alot get them in in the air flow and they will sometimes do, the boston somebody said it was, in the 60 cube seems to be doing,its actually put out new runners which are rooting into the cork.
> Out of the two above natives its the polypody that i have real hopes for its the one that never had probs. with the damp at the fern nursery we worked at.Yep we too have em stashed all over our garden,i keep planting trees so lots of shaded bits for them,*have you got any of the Nipponicum pictum(jap painted ferns) grey with reddish markings....they are deciduous but stunning plants don't think they would stand a chance though in a viv,blummin shame.*
> As far as the 'worts go truely a case of we will wait and see although they are loving it at the mo,we also get them in any pots that have been standing without being messed with in our gh,they seem to thrive in the summer warmth /humidity,its all about those cold months again i guess as per the mosses


Yep, we have (or had!) a little group of them- mostly the standard ones and one (Ruby-something? Can't remember) with enhanced red-ish colouring- really attractive. I say 'have/had' because they really suffered last winter and only re-emerged halfway through the summer- it remains to be seen whether they made it this time. Like a lot of ferns, they like well-drained, organic, fairly accidic soil- they only do well in our woodland area because the top 8" or so is basically broken-down bark- underneath it is pure, squidgy clay. We have to use a lot of home-made compost on the rest of the garden. For vivs, if you can succeed with them (I never have, for long:devil the table fern group sold as house plants have nearly as attractive leaves.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron do you have a grovy latin name for table fernlol2: that i will try for years to spell:whistling2 ha no sympathys on the clay my friend :2thumb:we are on exactly the same,tis a bas(opps) ....to work but give it some ,and its wonderfull to grow on.....mate you know bits an bobbs about soil...we are say a couple of miles...nah less from the cotswold escarpment,pure limestone i think so would our clay be similar in composition to calcium betonite,ya know what i'm thinking ,and no not mining either:lol2:???
:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:11 hours of froggy fun,tired WE are:bash::bash::bash::mf_dribble::mf_dribble:soon
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Ron do you have a grovy latin name for table fernlol2: that i will try for years to spell:whistling2 ha no sympathys on the clay my friend :2thumb:we are on exactly the same,tis a bas(opps) ....to work but give it some ,and its wonderfull to grow on.....mate you know bits an bobbs about soil...we are say a couple of miles...nah less from the cotswold escarpment,pure limestone i think so would our clay be similar in composition to calcium betonite,ya know what i'm thinking ,and no not mining either:lol2:???
> :2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:11 hours of froggy fun,tired WE are:bash::bash::bash::mf_dribble::mf_dribble:soon
> Stu


I live in the Medway Towns- on the North Downs (chalk). The boyfs place is on the Isle of Sheppey- which is pretty much icky London Clay- and it's composition is very much more neutral. It's also much harder to establish plants- wet ick in winter, and concrete in summer- although when they *do* actually take, they do well, as the clay is high in nutrients. Hence the compost.It helps to balance it all.


----------



## Owzy

Just stumbled across this.

Looks to be coming along very nicely!!! The backgrounds are great.


----------



## soundstounite

Owzy said:


> Just stumbled across this.
> 
> Looks to be coming along very nicely!!! The backgrounds are great.


:lol2:Sorry to trip you up mate!! thanks for the words on backgrounds another couple are nearly there just gotta finish up the mystie and azzie is comming slowly,will get some pics up shortly.


----------



## soundstounite

Oooo before i go any furthur learnt sommit yesterday before you start a background in epoxy,knock up a tiny bit that is measured correctly....resin/hardner...just to make sure that it sets...better to find this out before you have it on your background:gasp:
Hers a few pics of the start of Shaz's second azzie viv,the snow balls might be a pile of stones...oneday:lol2:
















we decided that making them separatly might be the easiest way of cobbling:blush: these together,the idea is that we will stick them in place after the finish is applied,and stuff moss and little plants in the gaps so nowhere for the blues to get stuck
bit of rockoflex on the background,lagely to be covered in big sheets of moss i am informed(oh help)








see ya know when they asked me at school what do drummers do when they grow up...............:blush:








one paints snowballs:lol2:.....cobblers i used to be good at growing stuff:bash: stones with rockoflex they are....HHHHMMMMM
Should have some mystie pics tomorrow....waiting for epoxy to dry:devil::devil::devil:
Stu


----------



## sambridge15

looking very good :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

sambridge15 said:


> looking very good :2thumb:


 Thanks Sam,ha was hoping for some sillyness but still much appreciated,sorry not got to the piccies,soon eh? totally ran out of light!!


----------



## soundstounite

OOOOORRRRAAAA,ha another totally stoked moment as another 60 cube gets to its final destination in one bloody piece. Moving these babies is a ruddy nightmare,one just can't get ones arms round it,anyway tis in situ and i can almost chill,ha ha almost but the events of tomorrow kinda outway this,proper biggy for us,ha ha but I am gonna be cagey so all that read and don't ask won't know:gasp::lol2::lol2::lol2: and ........
He he i am one happy dude
GET IN......:jump::jump::jump::jump: Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Ah good stuff Stu, I can just about lift a 60 cube...But then I have big monkey arms!


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Ah good stuff Stu, I can just about lift a 60 cube...But then I have big monkey arms!


You my friend have just got yourself a job,one day mate we will have another 2 that are about 5' up god only knows how they will get in the rack,the dilemha of course is what they are made of,although i put massive thought into how the background will strengthen the structure,i am sure there will come a time when a lovingly crafted viv and background goes tits,we will see.Gotta say this time we taped all the polystyrene to the bottom of the viv and also added some silicone paper underneath to make it all slide,and it totally worked,much easier to get in even with out being able to get at the sides as the other viv is already in place.
Live an learn mate
Stu


----------



## tomwilson

soundstounite said:


> OOOOORRRRAAAA,ha another totally stoked moment as another 60 cube gets to its final destination in one bloody piece. Moving these babies is a ruddy nightmare,one just can't get ones arms round it,anyway tis in situ and i can almost chill,ha ha almost but the events of tomorrow kinda outway this,proper biggy for us,ha ha but I am gonna be cagey so all that read and don't ask won't know:gasp::lol2::lol2::lol2: and ........
> He he i am one happy dude
> GET IN......:jump::jump::jump::jump: Stu
> image
> image
> image


i get so jealous watching this thread not really planning on darts but i just love your backgrounds and racks, and your excitment over the whole thing is very infectious just makes me want to redesighn all my vivs


----------



## Ron Magpie

tomwilson said:


> i get so jealous watching this thread not really planning on darts but i just love your backgrounds and racks, and your excitment over the whole thing is very infectious just makes me want to redesighn all my vivs


Yep, it's definitely infectious- makes me look at all my tanks again!


----------



## sambridge15

i reckon when you finish you should combine all your posts and pictures into 1 very long interesting journal/book like thing:2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

tomwilson said:


> i get so jealous watching this thread not really planning on darts but i just love your backgrounds and racks, and your excitment over the whole thing is very infectious just makes me want to redesighn all my vivs


 ah mate its not meant to make ya jealous,but i am very lucky to be able to try to do this,and i have understood what you mean. As far as the backgrounds go,its a joy cobblin' this stuff up and trying to find away of getting a little slice of rainforest in a tiny glass box.probably the biggest deal is maximising the variety of micro habitats for the frogs,so if they want to be damp or want to be dry then its there for them,coupled with the climbing frame to keep 'em fit ha ha.ha the excitment is genuine and being able to give this stuff to me lady who is not having the best of times makes it even more rewarding.We went to see Marc at dartfrog today,ahh man this little jerberos had an egg on one of the glass doors nearly hatched little wriggling tad in side it,Shaz was stood almost with her face against the glass wondering at it,and little jerb.dad was at thebase of the door shouting at her,ahh man :flrt:wanted to take the whole lot home tank an all
Thanks dude Stu


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

So what did you buy at dartfrog you can't have gone there and come back empty handed


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Yep, it's definitely infectious- makes me look at all my tanks again!


 Thanks Ron, man ya gotta laugh,i feel like i'm carrying the dreaded phib keepers disease,maybe with some help from you guys we can turn it into a pandemic:whistling2::lol2::lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

sambridge15 said:


> i reckon when you finish you should combine all your posts and pictures into 1 very long interesting journal/book like thing:2thumb:


 ha ha Sam that would be fun,hmmm though when is finished?It would need some frogs eh?


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> So what did you buy at dartfrog you can't have gone there and come back empty handed


 We are lucky Matty that we live only about an 1 1/2 away so we are able to go quite often keeps up the hunger so nothing much this time,but got to meet 3 wonderful guys from up north whom have all gone out of their way to help us and all breed absolutly stunning darts,its a ten hour round trip for them so just got to snatch a bit of their time,could have talked for ages to them,learnt so much in a short space of time my head hurts:bash:
Marc has also been wonderful to us and has helped us with his thoughts and knowledge right through this,tis so important that we actually see frogs ,on a journey like this,which is all kinda upside down.


----------



## Wolfenrook

You are so right Stu, you DO need to see frogs in the flesh to appreciate them, often photographs just don't do them justice. Leucs for example, pics I saw they looked boring, then I saw some at DF and ended up buying some. lol

Ade


----------



## Ron Magpie

Wolfenrook said:


> You are so right Stu, you DO need to see frogs in the flesh to appreciate them, often photographs just don't do them justice. Leucs for example, pics I saw they looked boring, then I saw some at DF and ended up buying some. lol
> 
> Ade


I must admit I've never seriously considered darts- until PRAS when I saw what was on offer- and especially the leucs that Matt and Flannywhanny bought.:mf_dribble:


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> You are so right Stu, you DO need to see frogs in the flesh to appreciate them, often photographs just don't do them justice. Leucs for example, pics I saw they looked boring, then I saw some at DF and ended up buying some. lol
> 
> Ade


 Rarely do the photos do the frogs justice thats for sure, but above and beyond this its the charcater of these little guys that amazes us,ha and like you Ade i was never really taken with the leucs untill i saw them at dartfrog,i have mentioned this before Marc's lady cleaning the glass doors,evrey other frog hid,but all 10 little leucs came to the front to see what was going on...... simply adorable


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I must admit I've never seriously considered darts- until PRAS when I saw what was on offer- and especially the leucs that Matt and Flannywhanny bought.:mf_dribble:


 Ha as above,mate,oh Ron i wish you could have seen that little jerberos telling shaz off for looking at his kidlet wonderful especially for something so tiny enchanting
Stu


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> We are lucky Matty that we live only about an 1 1/2 away so we are able to go quite often keeps up the hunger so nothing much this time,but got to meet 3 wonderful guys from up north whom have all gone out of their way to help us and all breed absolutly stunning darts,its a ten hour round trip for them so just got to snatch a bit of their time,could have talked for ages to them,learnt so much in a short space of time my head hurts:bash:
> Marc has also been wonderful to us and has helped us with his thoughts and knowledge right through this,tis so important that we actually see frogs ,on a journey like this,which is all kinda upside down.


And you still didnt get any frogs with all those lovely finished vivs, unbelievable will power Stu i bow down to you my friend :notworthy:
you should come to deadmeats frogmeet theres going to be a lot of knowledgable people going im sure he wouldnt mind


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> And you still didnt get any frogs with all those lovely finished vivs, unbelievable will power Stu i bow down to you my friend :notworthy:
> you should come to deadmeats frogmeet theres going to be a lot of knowledgable people going im sure he wouldnt mind


 No Richie you shouldn't bow to me,i didn't say i didn't have any frogs i said nuffin much,:lol2::lol2::lol2:,I just thought if i didn't drop some gentle hints then some of the older amongst us round our age:whistling2: might be permanantly damaged from the shock:lol2:.
So its best to go have a strong drink,and sit down,here's a little story:
back in december t'was Shaz's birthday,we were dreaming about our first frogs and looking on denW. Paul H had some little leucs for sale in amongst them was a little guy with a big orange smile on its back and also another with a little almost 5 black marcs like a dice, shaz was in raptures about them (mate you know how poorly she's been i had to get em for her they are very special just normal leucs but ya know)),i contacted Paul and he very kindly offered to keep them for us along with 3 siblings, and has grown then on for us. so they are little stonkers,and hopefully will like it here.
So i dunno it seems like eons ago we started this thing and now we finally have 5 drop dead gorgeous leucs who are just settlin in:mf_dribble:
Paul has done a fantastic job of rearing them they are little stonkers,and i am (we are) very grateful to him for his kindness and for his help and thoughts.
We popped in a bowl full of spings the night before just to be sure they could find some grub easy,but there is a mass of life in their viv already,ha i have pulled 2 different paracitic wasps, here's a bit of their release to their new gaff, before we pulled back and left them to it,ha mate i poped me head round the door a couple of hours later and two were stuffing their faces,in the bowl: victory:.
Of course they are a bit jumpy about us so we spend a little time after feeding sitting quiet and watching ahh mate so long to wait so cool to be a phibster again,only ,erm, a while since i last had a frog,hmmmmm.(Ouch...they're not mine i have just been informed:whistling2
























Ofcourse loads more pics will follow will try and get a pic of happy tyme up later
regards all Stu


----------



## richie.b

Well i dont believe it, youve got your first darts, oops Shaz has got her first darts bloody marvellous mate im really pleased for you both, i was looking at pics of Pauls leucs earlier on dw and thinking what nice frogs they were.So now the question is whats next :whistling2:
Good choice for your first darts also :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Happy thyme
sorry its through the glass but ya know


----------



## Ron Magpie

STU! FINALLY! It's now YesYesStu! :welcome: :2thumb::no1::2thumb::welcome::2thumb::no1::2thumb::welcome::2thumb::no1::2thumb:


Heehee...


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Well i dont believe it, youve got your first darts, oops Shaz has got her first darts bloody marvellous mate im really pleased for you both, i was looking at pics of Pauls leucs earlier on dw and thinking what nice frogs they were.So now the question is whats next :whistling2:
> Good choice for your first darts also :2thumb:


 Thanks mate chuffed totally with them,hope the shock wasn't too much:lol2:, Paul has made our job as first dart keepers as easy as it can be,they are great mate, gonna wait a while now mate ,then 2 sets of azzie and some Machetos.then possibly mysties...highlandbronze...elcope.. and then.o galacs, but you know me mate old slowcoach,want each viv set up planted/seeded with grub and settled before frogs so its just finding the time plus work an all but first enjoy this:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:, and make sure we have it wired,mate we could feed around 50 tanks with hydie and paul gave us a mel culture which is the bomb so we will hopefully get them going properly soon aswell as all the other grub, can't wait till it gets warmer though, i am desparate for space for plants ,plus back doing all work in the garage:gasp:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> STU! FINALLY! It's now YesYesStu! :welcome: :2thumb::no1::2thumb::welcome::2thumb::no1::2thumb::welcome::2thumb::no1::2thumb:
> 
> 
> Heehee...


:lol2::cheers:
Tis wonderful mate we are very lucky,ha good to be back:bash:


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Thanks mate chuffed totally with them,hope the shock wasn't too much:lol2:, Paul has made our job as first dart keepers as easy as it can be,they are great mate, gonna wait a while now mate ,then 2 sets of azzie and some Machetos.then possibly mysties...highlandbronze...elcope.. and then.o galacs, but you know me mate old slowcoach,want each viv set up planted/seeded with grub and settled before frogs so its just finding the time plus work an all but first enjoy this:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:, and make sure we have it wired,mate we could feed around 50 tanks with hydie and paul gave us a mel culture which is the bomb so we will hopefully get them going properly soon aswell as all the other grub, can't wait till it gets warmer though, i am desparate for space for plants ,plus back doing all work in the garage:gasp:


Good on you buddy and im sure you will do fine with the leucs, you will get bronze giants and elcope off rana at the uk frogday. Im after some matechos, citronella, la fumee and regina but like you will proberbly have to wait for these untill i go to hamm in september i expect.
Im also busy building more vivs for myself as well as a few others to take to deadmeats, and i cant wait for the warmer weather to get some plants in the greenhouse either so much easier. Mind you im seriously thinking of moving all my vivs back out into the outside frogroom in the summer and maybe getting some solar panels put on the roof, so much easier than the small box bedroom :2thumb:


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> :lol2::cheers:
> Tis wonderful mate we are very lucky,ha good to be back:bash:


Oh, mate, you were always here- but now I cant take the mick about either you or Morgan not having frogs, what can I do? My work is done...


----------



## FrogNick

nice one stu great to see your first frog, plenty of space for more!


----------



## Morgan Freeman

richie.b said:


> Good on you buddy and im sure you will do fine with the leucs, you will get bronze giants and elcope off rana at the uk frogday. Im after some matechos, citronella, la fumee and regina but like you will proberbly have to wait for these untill i go to hamm in september i expect.
> Im also busy building more vivs for myself as well as a few others to take to deadmeats, and i cant wait for the warmer weather to get some plants in the greenhouse either so much easier. Mind you im seriously thinking of moving all my vivs back out into the outside frogroom in the summer and maybe getting some solar panels put on the roof, so much easier than the small box bedroom :2thumb:


Shotgun Citronellas.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Oh, mate, you were always here- but now I cant take the mick about either you or Morgan not having frogs, what can I do? My work is done...


 Nah not really mate,am always up for having the mick taken,life's too short to be serious for very long:2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> nice one stu great to see your first frog, plenty of space for more!


Thanks Nicky,long ol wait,hmmm might be able to squeeze in a couple more i s'pose, but first enjoy ,but back at it today,cutting up old double glazing units for the mystie doors :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Good on you buddy and im sure you will do fine with the leucs, you will get bronze giants and elcope off rana at the uk frogday. Im after some matechos, citronella, la fumee and regina but like you will proberbly have to wait for these untill i go to hamm in september i expect.
> Im also busy building more vivs for myself as well as a few others to take to deadmeats, and i cant wait for the warmer weather to get some plants in the greenhouse either so much easier. Mind you im seriously thinking of moving all my vivs back out into the outside frogroom in the summer and maybe getting some solar panels put on the roof, so much easier than the small box bedroom :2thumb:


 Thanks Richie,yeah kinda hoping that might be the case,with the auratus,will have to see how much progress we make,also have the same love of the big yellow tincs,citronella is an absolute must,and have always lusted after regina,so that only leaves la fumee:lol2:
Hmmm thought you might be moving out:mf_dribble:...you have mentioned it before Rich,might one of those heat exchanger thingies be more viable,hmm but then there are the lights to run so maybe solar will be the best choice after all?


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Shotgun Citronellas.


 ?????Ha ya got me this time mate,but i know you lust after these too,so i presume its got sommit to do with that?


----------



## Gaz1987

Everytime I check this thread its like 10 pages longer, I can't keep up. :lol2:

Good luck with the Leucs nice to see some good quality frogs once again from Paul 

Keep the pics coming


----------



## soundstounite

Gaz1987 said:


> Everytime I check this thread its like 10 pages longer, I can't keep up. :lol2:
> 
> Good luck with the Leucs nice to see some good quality frogs once again from Paul
> 
> Keep the pics coming


 :lol2:you want to try this at my age:mf_dribble:,and the ruddy thing don't load me pics quick enough drives me nuts
Yes they are as good a start as we could get mate i just prey i have it all wired,think so but have been paranoid for a while that i have missed something,that said they are getting more confident all the time,all good so far,stoked with them. long ol day if we get some pics then i can sleep 
Thanks mate
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

At last
here we go...Jamie here's your cork sub stopper








Mystie viv avec le doors:lol2:








Substate contains even less eco earth,a bloody big springtail culture, coarse orchidbark plum and hazel twigs bottom layer,chopped and already washed( he he:Na_Na_Na_Na: )oak leaves?bit of peat/ecoearth fine orchid bark,topped off with clematis Armandii and oak leaves,lump of oak.
So one kinda planted mystie tank might mess with it yet,but i think its just about there of course grwing to do and moss to play,but i like playing moss so thats a treat:mf_dribble:.
Interesting to see how the aspeniums do. they have not got alot round their roots and what there is is very free draining,but this should be too wet for them ,but these two were growing in very wet conditions so ya never know,like a propergator though :2thumb:
one mystie viv...
















viv in da rack in da room








SwEEEEEEEEt ickle froggies








oh and Rob is still about for all you long term sufferers ,and i think has a lady:flrt:
seeya be lucky Stu


----------



## soundstounite

O....M...G
in one of those pics,you can see a reflection of my turkey baster!!!!!:bash:
Lmao


----------



## sambridge15

that latest viv is amazing :notworthy:


----------



## Ron Magpie

Truely spectacular :2thumb:


----------



## si-man

Read this whole thread, and you sir, are a genius.


----------



## Morgan Freeman

soundstounite said:


> O....M...G
> in one of those pics,you can see a reflection of my turkey baster!!!!!:bash:
> Lmao


I'm not going to look, just incase that's a euphamism.


----------



## manda88

Morgan Freeman said:


> I'm not going to look, just incase that's a euphamism.


That's what I thought :lol2: I did have a look though and I couldn't see anything, not even a real turkey baster.


----------



## Ron Magpie

Morgan Freeman said:


> I'm not going to look, just incase that's a euphamism.


 :lol2::lol2::lol2:

Morg and Manda, I am shocked, *shocked*, I tell you!:gasp:

Never crossed my mind at all...:whistling2:


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

Its the orange thing that looks like a balloon in the second pic down.


----------



## stewie m

wow thos viv look amazing


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Truely spectacular :2thumb:


 Sam and Ron thanks,guys am still unsure about it(you do mean the rocky malarky),as you know i have wrestled with this one for a while now,especially the rock construction side as so often fake rocks look crap,in vivs.My biggest headache is trying to construct this number of tank backgrounds,and trying to stay away from making them all look identical,especailly as i am working with a fairly limited no of plants,and really only a couple of types of wood,and at the same time of massive importance is trying to tailor each tank to its intended inhabitants,and trying to max the chalenges: climbing frame hiding places etc, for the frogs so they can have the best quality of life we can provide. Great fun but would be alot easier if i only had more knowledge.
Already after only a few days of keeping these what has really gobsmacked me is how much our little guys utilise the leaf litter,its all those months of the first tank being set up with grub breeding in there i guess.
Another thing we have got too think about in great depth i feel is where we actually place each tank with regard to species,and temperatures with in the room: i have just realised (eventhough my homework had already told me this) that one day far off in the future, when, we get my dream frogs my intended tanks for them will be unsuitable...too blummin warm...,one of these vivs there are 2 60x50sq base,must be set up soon,so i can see how the last rack might work so we are now wondering is a couple of pum morphs will be suitable ,or whether it will be too warm for them as well,i might need to install some kind of fan to minimise top to bottom room temperature differences,ha ha tis a proper brain teaser this froggy thing
Bring it on
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

si-man said:


> Read this whole thread, and you sir, are a genius.


 Thanks Si,hope you enjoyed, ha ha I'll take stubborn old *****:lol2::lol2:Thanks man


----------



## FrogNick

soundstounite said:


> Sam and Ron thanks,guys am still unsure about it(you do mean the rocky malarky),as you know i have wrestled with this one for a while now,especially the rock construction side as so often fake rocks look crap,in vivs.My biggest headache is trying to construct this number of tank backgrounds,and trying to stay away from making them all look identical,especailly as i am working with a fairly limited no of plants,and really only a couple of types of wood,and at the same time of massive importance is trying to tailor each tank to its intended inhabitants,and trying to max the chalenges: climbing frame hiding places etc, for the frogs so they can have the best quality of life we can provide. Great fun but would be alot easier if i only had more knowledge.
> Already after only a few days of keeping these what has really gobsmacked me is how much our little guys utilise the leaf litter,its all those months of the first tank being set up with grub breeding in there i guess.
> Another thing we have got too think about in great depth i feel is where we actually place each tank with regard to species,and temperatures with in the room: i have just realised (eventhough my homework had already told me this) that one day far off in the future, when, we get my dream frogs my intended tanks for them will be unsuitable...too blummin warm...,one of these vivs there are 2 60x50sq base,must be set up soon,so i can see how the last rack might work so we are now wondering is a couple of pum morphs will be suitable ,or whether it will be too warm for them as well,i might need to install some kind of fan to minimise top to bottom room temperature differences,ha ha tis a proper brain teaser this froggy thing
> Bring it on
> Stu


Stu,

yeah pum's will work but you might find replacing the lights below that viv with LEDs so over heating is not a issue. If I was planning to keep hist at some point I would have them separate from the rack with a thermostat.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> :lol2::lol2::lol2:
> 
> Morg and Manda, I am shocked, *shocked*, I tell you!:gasp:
> 
> Never crossed my mind at all...:whistling2:


I'm not sure whether its ok to use words like euphamism,confused i am,how could anyone miss that bright orange reflection,don't tell me ya thought it was an orange being used in place of a coco hut? am equally shocked Ron:gasp:
Sorry guys just couln't help it...still smiling now


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> Stu,
> 
> yeah pum's will work but you might find replacing the lights below that viv with LEDs so over heating is not a issue. If I was planning to keep hist at some point I would have them separate from the rack with a thermostat.


 Thanks Nicky am thinking basti for start,always been a must have.The whole rack is actually lit by leds mate,cobbled some up a few weeks ago,had to have more lights for the plants,so took a bit of a gamble,too early to say how they compare to the ent T5's that we are using apart from the running costs of course,hoping to back them up with a uvb on around miday,for a couple of hours ,and gonna try and locate some optiwhite for the back top section of the viv.
The last bit of your reply has set me thinking mate,but plenty of time yet to find out more about how different areas of the room react temperature wise,ha ha i'm not really very good at rushing. Thanks for the thoughts mate much appreciated !!


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Its the orange thing that looks like a balloon in the second pic down.


 :2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> wow thos viv look amazing


 Cheers mate,all the better for some frogs in the left one,ha ha what a joy they are, eventhough we will one day have quite a few frogs mate seeing the joy they have brought to Shaz i know that they are all gonna be cherished like these,amazingly special little amimals,hmmm but ya knew that:lol2:


----------



## richie.b

Well Stu i think the rocks turned out really good, they look quite natural in the photo.
As for thinking about which shelves to put what on because of temperature ill be honest ive never really thought about it or worried about it, ive always kept my pums on the top shelf simply for breeding purposes as they get less disturbed because only the top of my head is in view rather that my whole body when i walk past the vivs, dont know if it made much difference just something ive done. Saying that i did have more top shelving in the outside frogroom than the one i got now so might have to put some of my pums on the middle shelf :hmm:


----------



## Gaz1987

Nice work its hard to follow all these pages :lol: 
Great stuff Stu and I think the frogs will be very happy with both of you looking after them


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Well Stu i think the rocks turned out really good, they look quite natural in the photo.
> As for thinking about which shelves to put what on because of temperature ill be honest ive never really thought about it or worried about it, ive always kept my pums on the top shelf simply for breeding purposes as they get less disturbed because only the top of my head is in view rather that my whole body when i walk past the vivs, dont know if it made much difference just something ive done. Saying that i did have more top shelving in the outside frogroom than the one i got now so might have to put some of my pums on the middle shelf :hmm:


 Thanks Rich
And also thanks for your thoughts on my tanks shelves dilemma,thought it would be a good idea to raise all these little issues as we go along...some are reaccuring ,but all are worthy of debate and might be thought prevoking to others,looks like the bastis are going up in the world then mate,ha i think you might have pums on the bottom shelf too mate before very long:whistling2: or if you go back outside on the top and midlle shelves:gasp::2thumb:.Richie i hope you see this , basti comes in different colours : the ones we are after are the little jaguars ya know orange back/white tummy/black spots,mate, are these called basti. town/ are they a true breeding colour,and a separate morph?Have read that basti can be interbreed as the colours don't breed true in some cases, but am getting confused,lol again...not hard is it to confuse me:gasp:
Mate just showing shaz some pics of em,you can guess that, that is something i should not have done....hhhmmmm well i quite like that one,and that one oooooo escudo's nice,oh help,maybe that was ill thought out:lol2:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Gaz1987 said:


> Nice work its hard to follow all these pages :lol:
> Great stuff Stu and I think the frogs will be very happy with both of you looking after them


 hmmm not if she names em all mate:lol2::lol2: these 5 are herbs great way to id them though,seriously mate all we can do is our best, but we are a good team we have different skills and cause we have been together so long find it easy to work together,we used to work alot with the birds together she has them stockmans eyes ya know,she sees stuff that alot of others will miss,and sees it quick too,This would be very difficult to do without the 2 of us at it in different ways plus work,and still do the from scratch eco thing and most of the plants from scratch too hell mate thats made me tired just thinking about it.


----------



## kristaily

Wow Stu,

Just checking out the pics. If I can ever decorate my vivs to these standards I will be ecstatic. You gotta be chuffed with those results good on ya mate.

By the way thats an interesting sub stopper I have been wondering how to overcome this on a sloping floor are these bits of cork then just siliconed down into place?


----------



## soundstounite

kristaily said:


> Wow Stu,
> 
> Just checking out the pics. If I can ever decorate my vivs to these standards I will be ecstatic. You gotta be chuffed with those results good on ya mate.
> 
> By the way thats an interesting sub stopper I have been wondering how to overcome this on a sloping floor are these bits of cork then just siliconed down into place?


 Thanks Kris, yeah especially chuffed because all the plants in the leucs viv are grown here apart from the orchids, still have the originals as stock plants even my poor old neo ampulcea,hell i have had some pups off her,she was our first brom.
Yes on the sub stopper mate, exactly that,we actually used oak bark on the first viv...only drawback was getting it dry enough for the silicone to grab properly.As we always have bits of cork about mate as left overs and i am tending to cover this cork with the liverworts/mosses it just seemed the logical option,and hopefully the cork will last a good length of time.
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Any chance of a new full room shot Stu? :notworthy:


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Any chance of a new full room shot Stu? :notworthy:


 Ha you'l have to let me clean up a bit mate,will try and sort next couple of days.... morg,me old bones have seized,cold day for playing epoxy stones owwwww
oh and don't you give me that notworthy cobblers using big words on our thread:Na_Na_Na_Na::gasp:


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Why, feeling a bit discombobulated? :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Why, feeling a bit discombobulated? :lol2:


 :lol2:see that it would take me a lifetime to get those letters sorted out to the right order,and with age mate comes simplicity,bolloxed is both more effective and more eloquent,and i am...ha both


----------



## JayW

wow stu, long time since I checked in here and you were in the making of the room. Nice tanks for sure. 

I've quit the idea and got a beardie now. but I am remaking 10 tarantula tanks to look more natural, so that's the new hobby and jeez it's pi***ng me off so much lol. So good job I didn't go on to this one  

Good work


----------



## soundstounite

JayW said:


> wow stu, long time since I checked in here and you were in the making of the room. Nice tanks for sure.
> 
> I've quit the idea and got a beardie now. but I am remaking 10 tarantula tanks to look more natural, so that's the new hobby and jeez it's pi***ng me off so much lol. So good job I didn't go on to this one
> 
> Good work


 ha as long as your enjoying it mate thanks dude hope your foots mending take care bro be lucky 
Stu


----------



## JayW

soundstounite said:


> ha as long as your enjoying it mate thanks dude hope your foots mending take care bro be lucky
> Stu


I'm back in next thursday for 4 hour op and should be last one. 

No probs


----------



## soundstounite

JayW said:


> I'm back in next thursday for 4 hour op and should be last one.
> 
> No probs


 good luck mate let us know when your out and mending 
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

turn back to page 45 for the start of this second azzie viv,ha here's where we are at now,background: wood oak(surprise!!!) background cork polystyrene covered in rockoflex/epoxy/eco/peat mix....polystyrene stones:covered grey rocko epoxy and rockdust
























coarse orchib bark is the start of the substrate will add other components later.
Morg i'll get there mate not enough hours in the day .
but i know you like plants here is my blummin kitchen table:whistling2::bash::bash:








fts of the leucs viv
Happy Thyme and Five spice munchin'...porkers:mf_dribble:
















so cool to have da frosch
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

soundstounite said:


> turn back to page 45 for the start of this second azzie viv,ha here's where we are at now,background: wood oak(surprise!!!) background cork polystyrene covered in rockoflex/epoxy/eco/peat mix....polystyrene stones:covered grey rocko epoxy and rockdust
> image
> image
> image
> coarse orchib bark is the start of the substrate will add other components later.
> Morg i'll get there mate not enough hours in the day .
> but i know you like plants here is my blummin kitchen table:whistling2::bash::bash: image
> fts of the leucs viv
> Happy Thyme and Five spice munchin'...porkers:mf_dribble:
> image
> image
> so cool to have da frosch
> Stu


 sorry here is my kitchen table


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Oh that's a bit tasty!

I've been thinking about whether it's worth going for the alu frames in the future, I hate clutter but it looks a bit confusing setting up!

How difficult was it? I don't mind putting it together, it's working out what lengths etc to order.


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Oh that's a bit tasty!
> 
> I've been thinking about whether it's worth going for the alu frames in the future, I hate clutter but it looks a bit confusing setting up!
> 
> How difficult was it? I don't mind putting it together, it's working out what lengths etc to order.


ha the first line tells me you have the inteligence to make these racks mate,as its modular one has to get ones head round one tank one light compartment,if you haven't got a chop saw mate don't touch it,even with good (and i mean GOOD) tools it is a massive amount of work,the difficult bit is maintaining accuracy over eons of cuts,as before the nos are silly that you need to cut for the 12 viv rack there are 56 cuts of the same length across the front and back horizontally.
So its really a mindset thang,diligence over time,i am pretty driven mate especailly with me lady an all,but without the tools forget it there is no way i would even contemplate it,it would take weeks to make a big rack,a possible option is to get all the cuts done for ya though it would of course cost more,then its just the bloody riviting to worry about
ha lot of work dude but def worth it,nuff said


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Oh I'd totally get them cut for me!

I just worry about getting something wrong and paying for bits I don't need!

I've gone back through your thread and it looks a bit clearer. It was just the alu profiles with bits sticking out, are they the supports for the plywood bases?


E.N.T. Terrarientechnik - Aluminium-Profile

I get the plain ones are where they aren't for support but I'm not sure about the rest.


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Ahhh I forgot, you didn't use the ENT stuff did you?

Ignore me, I'm off to work it out....


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Ahhh I forgot, you didn't use the ENT stuff did you?
> 
> Ignore me, I'm off to work it out....


 :no1::lol2::lol2: its whether you need the white board on the ends mate that what alot of the mitres are for also no ply in these just 2 diff thicknesses of foamboard.


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Hate mitres.

Any chance, when you can of course, of taking a picture of where the vivs sit and how the support boards fit in? And how the panels are held in place? If that makes sense. No rush and don't worry if you can't.


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Oh wait I see how you've done it, is that strong enough to hold the tanks?


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Oh wait I see how you've done it, is that strong enough to hold the tanks?


 yup..... reason the front and back cross members are load bearing so by sitting the 3/4" angle exactly 5 mm below the load bearing surface when you add the board(5mm) tis now completely flat really the only time they carry any weight is when your putting a viv in or pulling it out.add enough headroom for the ploy tile and sorted. mate there are pics of this stage on here you'll see i waffle on about a jig to sit the angle at the correct height


----------



## soundstounite

soundstounite said:


> image


 here is the jig permalink 54


----------



## soundstounite

soundstounite said:


> here we go then sticking the sides together, man its actully starting to look like a rack methinks......
> image
> so first two sides linked.....half way through last section
> image
> And there ya go boys and girls one rack frame
> image
> To elababourate on the boards that carry the lights here a little pick to demonstrate what i was wafflin' about earlier
> image
> So i'm gonna have a quick look at the phib now seeya...Stu


 sorry mate 57 and the last pic on this perma6...
(erm)6 i think...DOH


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Oh brilliant, it all makes sense now. You're a star.

Your way seems much better than the ENT/Rana systems.

I'm just looking for a system for 3 x 80/40/40cm vivs. Reckon I can knock it together if I get the bits cut for me?


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Oh brilliant, it all makes sense now. You're a star.
> 
> Your way seems much better than the ENT/Rana systems.
> 
> I'm just looking for a system for 3 x 80/40/40cm vivs. Reckon I can knock it together if I get the bits cut for me?


 cool glad we got there mate,as far as better.... nah... well maybe the ends they don't bother with the mitres there.... they are just more realistically priced and a bloody lot of work to make:lol2:
3 high mate you will lagely be working with mulitples of seven on the horizontals
ie:14 cuts just over 80cm front and back
14 just over 35 cm sides 
Verts
legs...who knows but there will be 4
12.... 40cmplus thickness of tile plus say 10/15mm to allow you to get them in and out,can't remember how much we used 
and then 12cuts we used 12 cm for the light space
i think thats all the tubes mate getting late ha
then 3/4 angle for supports ie under vivs and don't forget the top as makes a great shelf for springs of course 4 per viv but remember that the front to back need to be cut small to allow for the other angles running side to side(did that make sense) and finally
the 1/2" angle must be mitred for the lighting doors 6 across and 6 verts,oh mate the tube is 2.5cm(explains the 35cm above) these mitres must be cut bang on or your joints wont go together right.
Think thats it oh and da foam board
Stu.......oh and star..... yeah i know thats why i get followed:gasp::gasp::gasp:


----------



## soundstounite

hereya go morg ,counter clock
































never did get to tidy much,:bash:
another get in ooorra 2nd azzie viv awaiting plants








with its doors,ha you almost know the drill








tried aliitle planter without the rockoflex this says to me its worth going that bit extra ,its sat alongside 2 made in the usual way








oh and the difference with the two usual ones is just,a different eco brick.


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Oh man, that's going to look so good all filled with vivs.

Do you have all the vivs built or are you still waiting/sourcing glass?


----------



## soundstounite

oh and a little bit of drainage,this is the behind the doors shot of the drains starting to be hooked up








are little guest seem to be enjoying the viv too the are all over the place top too bottom,anyone know when a leuc stops growing?,hmm but not maturity actually stop growing,(that is apart from one frog we have she,ah man gotta be she will eat untill her sides spilt:2thumb:,pieprika she is...... she ate em all


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Oh man, that's going to look so good all filled with vivs.
> 
> Do you have all the vivs built or are you still waiting/sourcing glass?


 Nah mate don't have space to store made up vivs,the next is water tested(sides and base bottom vent,false floor) gonna try a bit of optiwhite for the top back which i will buy,guessing about 4or5 more cut,space is a problem i like to build on a dead flat surace,then background in the warm (curing times more than anything else) but the only space is kitchen table and you've seen that:gasp::lol2:
Can't remember whether i said but got alod of 4mm fron a glazier,ha but in double glazed units,a pain to split and clean but handy for doors !!!
Thanks kiddo still along way to go,ha having the frogs hasn't helped really, but HAD to be done,need longer daylight and warm weather NOW:lol2:
Stu


----------



## stewie m

all i can say is WOW 

how dose the driange work with the tubes are they conected to a pump or somthing


----------



## si-man

Amazing! Cant wait to see the finished room.


----------



## JayW

they all got frogs in? 
what are you using to stick the plant pots on?


----------



## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> all i can say is WOW
> 
> how dose the driange work with the tubes are they conected to a pump or somthing


 hey mate luvvin the sig.:notworthy: nah mate tis just gravity,the problem is using the clear plastic tube,which will not lie straight,even when heated,have already had thoughts about changing this for domestic type plastic plumbing,push fit,but the connections become an issue,ha if this was easy:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:
be lucky kiddo
stu


----------



## soundstounite

si-man said:


> Amazing! Cant wait to see the finished room.


 Patience dear boy,:lol2: am getting there never said i would be quick,just slow and thorough,thanks mate the encouragement that comes from you guys is huge for me thankyou bro 
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

JayW said:


> they all got frogs in?
> what are you using to stick the plant pots on?


 Hey buddy,ya sorted?
No Jay only the leucs so far,each viv needs to settle down and turn into an ecosystem firstlants need to anchor and get used to conditions springs and woods need to get breeding and loads of water goes through just for washing it all clean really just in case their might be any residues about that i have missed (mate these are all my opinions nothing more) then frogs.As these are our first darts we are being ultra cautious,just making sure all is wired. need a modus operandi first(method of working).
Pots are coated in foam...then rockoflex...then epoxy/eco/peat...then stuck on using silicone which is sealed round the edge with the same and covered again in the eco/peat mix to hide the join..... cimples
Stu


----------



## stewie m

soundstounite said:


> hey mate luvvin the sig.:notworthy: nah mate tis just gravity,the problem is using the clear plastic tube,which will not lie straight,even when heated,have already had thoughts about changing this for domestic type plastic plumbing,push fit,but the connections become an issue,ha if this was easy:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:
> be lucky kiddo
> stu


arr so it self draining wen its too full


----------



## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> arr so it self draining wen its too full


 yep mate exactly that,gravity does the work for me so i can erm make stuff.
Actually mate there is a very important point here: if one has to drain say 20 tanks everyday then one might not have time for more important things to do with the frogs welfare.The trade off is, a stockman needs to spend time OBSERVING his stock,behaving naturally(not stressed by some dude sticking his turkey baster in their enclosure) or he /she doesn't know whats going on and their welfare is jepardised. 
So we are trying to work the time, so we can see the frogs doing what they do,and weigh up what they need,without being too invasive and distrupting their natural behaviour,does that make sense?
Stu


----------



## stewie m

soundstounite said:


> yep mate exactly that,gravity does the work for me so i can erm make stuff.
> Actually mate there is a very important point here: if one has to drain say 20 tanks everyday then one might not have time for more important things to do with the frogs welfare.The trade off is, a stockman needs to spend time OBSERVING his stock,behaving naturally(not stressed by some dude sticking his turkey baster in their enclosure) or he /she doesn't know whats going on and their welfare is jepardised.
> So we are trying to work the time, so we can see the frogs doing what they do,and weigh up what they need,without being too invasive and distrupting their natural behaviour,does that make sense?
> Stu


 makes perfect sense


----------



## si-man

It an instant drain or does it need to fill up a bit before hand?


----------



## s6t6nic6l

if it helps in anyway, you may want to add an extra 2" or so for every downward tubing as you progress to the left of the drainage system as per:


----------



## soundstounite

si-man said:


> It an instant drain or does it need to fill up a bit before hand?


 Si it sits,say 4.5cm up from the base of the little ditch at the front of an ent so if the frogs do want wet its there for them,and i suppose tads will also be dropped off occasionally,once it overflows,from misting any excess water is taken away....great part of the design ,a constant cycle of fresh water through the viv,,providing the misting is greater than evaporation,of course.
Is that what you meant?


----------



## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> if it helps in anyway, you may want to add an extra 2" or so for every downward tubing as you progress to the left of the drainage system as per:
> image


 Keep chucking em at me Nic,your thoughts are much appreciated.ya good?
Nah mate in this case not possible,we only have 12 cm of lighting in which to run the drainage,(when you sit 3 vivs on top like this and Shaz aint tall:lol2:this space is at a premium).
,added on to this is i will take the drains across the top of the last viv and downwards behind the rack,the only spanner in the works is the blummin pipe wont lie flat,other wise the tinyest of falls would do the job,ie like in a house drain,as i mentioned earlier the drainset connections are at presant scuppering me or i would i would use household,pushfit plumbing.
Regards
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Some randomness,
We have gone to great lengths to learn lots about culturing for our frogs so that we can give them the best diet possible its always been my intention to suppliment this,so we do loads of work for a goodly number of springtails,erm and at the bottom of our garden are some compost bins,i will make them rodent proof just to be as safe as possible,here is the top of one of them that we do nothing to,cool being nice to nature she looks after ya!!!
A proper springtail culture,about 200 litres,and its just mid march:gasp: 
a tap of the lid and this,thats just what on the underside of the lid 









a shot of the outside of the rim








and inside the top of the bin








He he 'cause we are doing all this frog stuff i am a bit behind on me gardening,the snow had knocked over one or our roses and clems,when i was 1/2 though found this little lass,she's on the house wall about 3 feet from our front door and was out in the open but i /we didn't spot her,needless to say will do the rest later bless








Stu


----------



## s6t6nic6l

soundstounite said:


> Nah mate in this case not possible,we only have 12 cm of lighting in which to run the drainage,(when you sit 3 vivs on top like this and Shaz aint tall:lol2:this space is at a premium),added on to this is i will take the drains across the top of the last viv and downwards behind the rack,the only spanner in the works is the blummin pipe wont lie flat,other wise the tinyest of falls would do the job,ie like in a house drain,as i mentioned earlier the drainset connections are at presant scuppering me or i would i would use household,pushfit plumbing.
> Stu


:devil::lol2: i keep looking at it and can see no problem with the concept you have in place plus the theory of a gradient to aid the flow. adding 2" may be to much for the space you can utilise with the flexible hose, but that could be lessened too if you source rigid plastic tubing which has the same internal diameter as your tubing that you have installed already.


----------



## _TiMiSdRuNk_

Well i just looked through all 55 pages :| Bloody good though


----------



## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> :devil::lol2: i keep looking at it and can see no problem with the concept you have in place plus the theory of a gradient to aid the flow. adding 2" may be to much for the space you can utilise with the flexible hose, but that could be lessened too if you source rigid plastic tubing which has the same internal diameter as your tubing that you have installed already.


 yeah mate it works but as above blummin connectors to the drainset,have all the other plumbing bits sat here,not finished with this yet,and i have to buy that flexicrap:gasp:.Keep them ideas comming mate:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

_TiMiSdRuNk_ said:


> Well i just looked through all 55 pages :| Bloody good though


:welcome::lol2:thanks mate,sorry about that,i fear there might be more too...:gasp:.'ere how long did that take? 
Where in plym mate,guessing dev? we resided for a while in stoke
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

If I wana read it from the start I go to the thread on dendroworld, all the good info without the chit chat! :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> If I wana read it from the start I go to the thread on dendroworld, all the good info without the chit chat! :Na_Na_Na_Na:


 Ah man i know but if folks are gonna be so kind gotta be polite and answer,ha but there ain't the detail apart from the lights which nobody seemed interested in,shame really cause i thought it was a big deal,and they look ok too not completely sure but plants haven't noticed,that they are not using all our electricity,
Though you could have asked about the ali on den.:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Ah man i know but if folks are gonna be so kind gotta be polite and answer,ha but there ain't the detail apart from the lights which nobody seemed interested in,shame really cause i thought it was a big deal,and they look ok too not completely sure but plants haven't noticed,that they are not using all our electricity,
> Though you could have asked about the ali on den.:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


I like the chit chat!:lol2: The technical details are somewhat more complicated than I'd want to deal with (I can do 'practical' but I can't be arsed, most of the time!:lol2 but it is really interesting. When I'm a zillionaire I'll pay someone to do it all for me...


----------



## Morgan Freeman

soundstounite said:


> Ah man i know but if folks are gonna be so kind gotta be polite and answer,ha but there ain't the detail apart from the lights which nobody seemed interested in,shame really cause i thought it was a big deal,and they look ok too not completely sure but plants haven't noticed,that they are not using all our electricity,
> Though you could have asked about the ali on den.:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


Nothing wrong with the chit chat, just hard to scroll through and find pics!


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Nothing wrong with the chit chat, just hard to scroll through and find pics!


 nah mate tis all good fun what would be nice for all ha including me,as its a great ref to go back to to see when roughly we did this bla bla,would be some form of index,you know way more than me mate is it possible to do that? Occassionally i get spellbound by a thread,it would be great to be able to bookmark reference bits
One of the main reasons for me to do this,was to give others some form of ref but from another beginner, so all the probs one encounters have been covered and also the results as we go so one can see where it works and where it goes tits,and photos,show so much.


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Go the pages with the bits you want, copy them. Paste them all into the first post if you can still edit it with descriptions.

If that makes sense.


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Go the pages with the bits you want, copy them. Paste them all into the first post if you can still edit it with descriptions.
> 
> If that makes sense.


Thanks mate
Well ya know me mate it kinda makes sense though at some stage i ,ought to have a crack,but am cabbabaged,trying to do way too much,did you get the summersi?
Very difficult not to go to Marcs now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Morgan Freeman

It was Ade after them not me!

I'm after the powder grey/blues.


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> It was Ade after them not me!
> 
> I'm after the powder grey/blues.


 see mate totally falling asleep...DOH
they are reserved does that mean yours:mf_dribble:


----------



## Alex M

soundstounite said:


> see mate totally falling asleep...DOH
> they are reserved does that mean yours:mf_dribble:


 
That you that's bought the auratus 'camo' mate, as soon as i saw them i thought to myself 'Stu' . Marc has certainly shifted some livestock this week, everything that was up has virtually gone. 

Cheers
Al


----------



## soundstounite

Alex M said:


> That you that's bought the auratus 'camo' mate, as soon as i saw them i thought to myself 'Stu' . Marc has certainly shifted some livestock this week, everything that was up has virtually gone.
> 
> Cheers
> Al


 Hey buddy,uncanny that,no unfortunately,not!!!! but for an hour or two last night our heads fought with our hearts of these,ha and the citronella,my head says i gotta be patient,gotta let viv settle bla bla, most important that we don't run before we can walk.
Sometimes mate its really difficult walking the walk,my head is also saying dude we are ONIT,food everywhere,its ok your first frogs are luvving it here,having a ball in their new gaff,its ok to get some more, but ya know got to play the cautious card,tis precious little frogs,very very difficult,not to start getting more mate,head only just won this but properly only just.
Ha mate unrelated, but close to both our hearts,been helping a matewhose having is heart torn out by his now ex,he comes over,and i drive him hard he plays guitar,and has a great voice though i am slowly getting him over the confidance thang,so we write silly songs,just finished the first BIGG FEET, old school recording all pretty much one take but its got that proper live vibe, me likes!!!! he's well chuffed ,tis the power of music mate ha ya know this
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Omg,helping another mate last night till blummin1.30am recording a cover for his dad whom is gravely ill...then work...then a trip to Marc at Dartfrog (for anyone who hasent been...GO) to see all the frogs my caution didn't let us buy,OUCH
Stand outs that we had not seen before were the auratus:camo and the powder blue tincs(big)
any way back away from dream world
Bayleaf and Fivespice getting stuck in to some tropical springs and a few mites on a bit of 'shroom this is after they had been pigging out for a while while we grabbed some nosh for us
little porkers








































ha love em,
Seeya
Stu


----------



## Alex M

How you stop yourself Stu, I just don't know mate!. Fair play with what you're doing with your music, music being being used in the right way . Leuc's look great fella! So, what DID you buy today? I picked up 7 Bumblebee toads (Melanophryniscus stelzneri) yesterday, oh and a Budgett's frog (Lepidobatrachus laevis) but that's for a future breeding project.

Cheers
Al


----------



## soundstounite

Alex M said:


> How you stop yourself Stu, I just don't know mate!. Fair play with what you're doing with your music, music being being used in the right way . Leuc's look great fella! So, what DID you buy today? I picked up 7 Bumblebee toads (Melanophryniscus stelzneri) yesterday, oh and a Budgett's frog (Lepidobatrachus laevis) but that's for a future breeding project.
> 
> Cheers
> Al


musics for me soul mate cheers,no restraint,i had given in mate.... but all that i wanted to buy had already gone:blush: though there might be some news soon on the froggy front see if lady luck smiles on us
Ah thanks about the leucs dude they are so much fun,buddy am always up for the constuctive criticism if ya see me doing something Stu....pid :mf_dribble:will get that thing sorted soon mate be lucky 
stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

Alex M said:


> How you stop yourself Stu, I just don't know mate!. Fair play with what you're doing with your music, music being being used in the right way . Leuc's look great fella! So, what DID you buy today? I picked up 7 Bumblebee toads (Melanophryniscus stelzneri) yesterday, oh and a Budgett's frog (Lepidobatrachus laevis) but that's for a future breeding project.
> 
> Cheers
> Al


Just so you know, Al, I officially hate you. Nah, I don't :lol2: I just really, really want some of those bumblebee toads. Gods know where I'd put them- I do actually have an exo free, but it's on the floor in my living room at the mo because I don't even have any more space to store redundant tanks! I think Jackie has infected me with something...


----------



## Wolfenrook

soundstounite said:


> then a trip to Marc at Dartfrog (for anyone who hasent been...GO) to see all the frogs my caution didn't let us buy,OUCH


Well said there Stu, been saying the same myself for a long time. Even if you don't intend to buy frogs from there for whatever reason, it's still worth a visit just to see all of the different frogs, phibs and day geckos in the flesh! I doubt there are many hobbyists that have the same number of species in one place at one time.

I know some folks wont go there etc, and I don't want to get into that here. But it IS worth the trip. He has some nice plants in there as well that aren't even up on the website, and often nocks a bit off the usual price (I got a large potted fireball with 2 offsets on it for £4.99 when I was there on Saturday, and got Kroot a nice little potted ficus Columbian for the same as well).

Don't suppose you picked up one of those professional breeders series books he has upstairs on his desk did you Stu? If not, I thoroughly recommend doing so. Packed with some great pics, descriptions of good viv setups for various species by actual species and a really good section about dendrobatid toxins. Some of the species names are old ones, but there is a bit in the back that shows the correct current species names next to the ones used in the body of the book. :2thumb: Loving my copy. : victory:

I couldn't find those auratus when I was there, but then I was distracted a lot by my dad (who's car had broken down and was waiting for the RAC) and one of my daughters....

Oh and bud, unless you are curing cement or grout or similar, don't bother with all that "growing in", "letting them settle" piffle. A month is plenty for seeded springs to get established, and so long as you have plenty of hiding places from the start the frogs wont give a hoot. :lol2: Plants grow faster once there are frogs in there as the frogs fertilise them. 

Ade


----------



## Alex M

soundstounite said:


> musics for me soul mate cheers,no restraint,i had given in mate.... but all that i wanted to buy had already gone:blush: though there might be some news soon on the froggy front see if lady luck smiles on us
> Ah thanks about the leucs dude they are so much fun,buddy am always up for the constuctive criticism if ya see me doing something Stu....pid :mf_dribble:will get that thing sorted soon mate be lucky
> stu


 
I'm not going to tell you how to keep your Leuc's mate, you tell me how YOU do it!. I have lots of ways of doing things that I don't see done by others on forums, as I'm sure many other people do, and I really think that over time it's good if people develop their own techniques, tweeking things as you go. It's like UVB lighting for most phibs, I'm certainly not the first to have deployed it with amphibians by any stretch but it's something I've done for a very long time - generally it was very much frowned upon but I've always disagreed, and actually have articles in my possession that I wrote for the YHC newsletter circa '91/92(?) as an enthusiastic teenager suggesting it be used because of my outdoor observations of Bufo viridis and Hyla arborea etc (well, strictly speaking they were blacklights/powertwists back then, the right idea but they were potentially dangerous). I did notice you were hunting out pictures a while back of the mysties natural habitat/climate etc and then incorporating those ideas into your cage build - Brilliant!. So, what I'm trying to say is, if you see your animal doing something in the wild then try and reproduce that in captivity, you'll have far more success than not i.e Tree frogs that are basking, well that's a pretty good indication that they benefit from the sun's rays does it not? - How it has taken so long for us as a whole to work this out absolutely baffles me!. If it wasn't for people like Lotte providing her excellent sticky thread on amphibians and UV I'm sure many people (not all) would still be stuck in the dark ages. So to get back to the point, DO experiment yourself pal! - You can do things that we can ALL learn from, and infact, I for one already am .


@Ron - Sorry about the Bumblebee's mate, but I do feel you should make the space, and CAN make the space , I don't need to tell you what a small species they are and like most 'phibs they're even more endearing in the flesh. Ask yourself this - Do I really need my fridgefreezer? 


@Ade - Good question regarding large private collections, I do think someone should start a thread on here where we all list the species we keep, could be really helpful in many ways I reckon, knowing who breeds and/or maintains what?

Off to bed now!
Cheers
Al


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Just so you know, Al, I officially hate you. Nah, I don't :lol2: I just really, really want some of those bumblebee toads. Gods know where I'd put them- I do actually have an exo free, but it's on the floor in my living room at the mo because I don't even have any more space to store redundant tanks! I think Jackie has infected me with something...


:lol2: Ah Ron i can see why you want them(i hope i am thinking of the right ones:lol2:doh)We saw them as well erm in a pile all huddled up,don't know whether thats usual behavior of corse but they are lovely animalsgood job we said just darts or hell knows what would happen,always had a yerning to make some big brick outdoor enclosures for firs sals and.......:whistling2:hmmm best not go there!!!!


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Well said there Stu, been saying the same myself for a long time. Even if you don't intend to buy frogs from there for whatever reason, it's still worth a visit just to see all of the different frogs, phibs and day geckos in the flesh! I doubt there are many hobbyists that have the same number of species in one place at one time.
> 
> I know some folks wont go there etc, and I don't want to get into that here. But it IS worth the trip. He has some nice plants in there as well that aren't even up on the website, and often nocks a bit off the usual price (I got a large potted fireball with 2 offsets on it for £4.99 when I was there on Saturday, and got Kroot a nice little potted ficus Columbian for the same as well).
> 
> Don't suppose you picked up one of those professional breeders series books he has upstairs on his desk did you Stu? If not, I thoroughly recommend doing so. Packed with some great pics, descriptions of good viv setups for various species by actual species and a really good section about dendrobatid toxins. Some of the species names are old ones, but there is a bit in the back that shows the correct current species names next to the ones used in the body of the book. :2thumb: Loving my copy. : victory:
> 
> I couldn't find those auratus when I was there, but then I was distracted a lot by my dad (who's car had broken down and was waiting for the RAC) and one of my daughters....
> 
> Oh and bud, unless you are curing cement or grout or similar, don't bother with all that "growing in", "letting them settle" piffle. A month is plenty for seeded springs to get established, and so long as you have plenty of hiding places from the start the frogs wont give a hoot. :lol2: Plants grow faster once there are frogs in there as the frogs fertilise them.
> 
> Ade


Hiya mate, Ha Ade gonna go back to front here ,i guess you didn't spot the auratus as with me, although you are way taller than me(6'ish,I'm shrinking :2thumb:,its the height mate they were right down the bottom,i walked round in circles looking for them but couldn't see them...but Shaz found em.....SSSSHHHHH she's vertically challenged:gasp:
As far as the vivs go understand exactly what you mean mate,am just cautious,its the old softly softly thing,all said and done though, have only had little froggies for a while now,so eventhough i have been doing me homework,its all so early for us,and of course i want to get cracking but after the wait the luecs are being savored,so can afford the time to let things settle and try to stop worrying that i might have cocked up somewhere:lol2:
Thanks for the tip about the books mate i simply haven't clocked em,though Lotter book plus Silher's(spelling) plus the red one hmmm have given us a great base to think and ponder on,i will definitely check them out soon
And to Marc's shop eloquently put mate!! the one thing we both have not touched on is the man,its worth going to spend some time with him eventhough the demands on his time are great always patient always helpful,ha and the guy knows a bit too!!!!
oh and hope your old fellas car didn't sting him too hard !!!!
be lucky mate 
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

I left the poor guy talked to death Stu. lol With the break down, we ended up there until after 4:30pm, and we arrived about 12:45. lol He stayed open half an hour late just to chat. To anybody waiting orders, sorry any delay is partly my fault. lol

I did try to look in some of the bottom vivs, but could only really see anything in the one with the diddy leucs in it. lol My knees and back play up too much to get down nice and low and have a really good look in them.

For me, the best bit was watching his thumbnails, the ones in his collection there. He had tadpoles in with his Borja ridge vents, and his silly imitators had laid eggs on the door.... lol Got to watch a pair of the day geckos there mating as well. Previous visits I got to see Azureas eggs and day gecko eggs. Every visit there's something new to see.

He'd got some young flower mantids in as well, apparently traded for some White's tree frogs. Lovely little insects, I found it so funny though how my dad and daughter couldn't find them until I explained that there weren't really any white flowers in the tubs. Like I said, something different every time.

I love going there, my dad has come to enjoy it too. Wish I could afford to go more often (petrol costs about £25 each time...) and find more excuses to go. That's not even mentioning the fantastic chip shop just outside of Bewdly (white building, 2 doors and a car park up the back), their chips are delicious, cooked to golden perfection and not at all greasy, and the fish are delicious too with lovely crisp batter and MASSIVE. lol Best chip shop I know of outside of Pembroke.  Then there is the lovely town of Bewdley, the River Severn and the lovely Wyre forest.....

Just remember to take your sat nav, it really is in the middle of nowhere, even the RAC guy had trouble finding it. lol

Oh, and the car, aye cost £41 for the new injector. RAC man told him to grab a few spares from a scrap yard as apparently they are prone to clogging. I knew something was wrong all of the way there. He was losing a LOT of power, and when he accelerated instead of a smooth increase in speed it was suddenly jerking forwards, and I could feel like a juddering. It really came to a head though when we left the chip shop, the whole car was vibrating and when we came to a steep hill he only just made it to the top. It was a big relief when we finally pulled into Dartfrog, less of a relief when the RAC call centre person told us ETA was 5:30pm.... Thank goodness he was an hour early.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Alex M said:


> I'm not going to tell you how to keep your Leuc's mate, you tell me how YOU do it!. I have lots of ways of doing things that I don't see done by others on forums, as I'm sure many other people do, and I really think that over time it's good if people develop their own techniques, tweeking things as you go. It's like UVB lighting for most phibs, I'm certainly not the first to have deployed it with amphibians by any stretch but it's something I've done for a very long time - generally it was very much frowned upon but I've always disagreed, and actually have articles in my possession that I wrote for the YHC newsletter circa '91/92(?) as an enthusiastic teenager suggesting it be used because of my outdoor observations of Bufo viridis and Hyla arborea etc (well, strictly speaking they were blacklights/powertwists back then, the right idea but they were potentially dangerous). I did notice you were hunting out pictures a while back of the mysties natural habitat/climate etc and then incorporating those ideas into your cage build - Brilliant!. So, what I'm trying to say is, if you see your animal doing something in the wild then try and reproduce that in captivity, you'll have far more success than not i.e Tree frogs that are basking, well that's a pretty good indication that they benefit from the sun's rays does it not? - How it has taken so long for us as a whole to work this out absolutely baffles me!. If it wasn't for people like Lotte providing her excellent sticky thread on amphibians and UV I'm sure many people (not all) would still be stuck in the dark ages. So to get back to the point, DO experiment yourself pal! - You can do things that we can ALL learn from, and infact, I for one already am .
> 
> 
> @Ron - Sorry about the Bumblebee's mate, but I do feel you should make the space, and CAN make the space , I don't need to tell you what a small species they are and like most 'phibs they're even more endearing in the flesh. Ask yourself this - Do I really need my fridgefreezer?
> 
> 
> @Ade - Good question regarding large private collections, I do think someone should start a thread on here where we all list the species we keep, could be really helpful in many ways I reckon, knowing who breeds and/or maintains what?
> 
> Off to bed now!
> Cheers
> Al


Thanks Al and again hugely eloquent,agree totally about Lotte's thread properly take my hat off to her for that:notworthy:,the biggest point you make though for me is that stockmans approach to observation,it is SO SO important that our animals are watched and of course for me its very difficult to do this with actual wild darts and then impliment ,as i am just never (take that back i don't say never) but its unlikely that i will be touring S America,but thanks to Sir David A(particular ref to uvb with your beloved monkeys,ha erm phylomesdusa sauvangii...hmmm and pums blue jeans i guess basking in the sun) et al we are able to get some perception of phib behaviour and then work with that the net and huge observation of our chosen subjects to try and improve viv design /interior design/ lighting/substates/nutrition/climate control and rearing methods oh and of course ailment management.
For sure this hobby has moved in some ways in the spell i have been away but in many other ways its still in its infancy,just important that we learn hard and fast with the currant demands on our phibs
ha ha as always my friend ...BRING IT ON
be lucky mate 
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

Alex M said:


> I'm not going to tell you how to keep your Leuc's mate, you tell me how YOU do it!. I have lots of ways of doing things that I don't see done by others on forums, as I'm sure many other people do, and I really think that over time it's good if people develop their own techniques, tweeking things as you go. It's like UVB lighting for most phibs, I'm certainly not the first to have deployed it with amphibians by any stretch but it's something I've done for a very long time - generally it was very much frowned upon but I've always disagreed, and actually have articles in my possession that I wrote for the YHC newsletter circa '91/92(?) as an enthusiastic teenager suggesting it be used because of my outdoor observations of Bufo viridis and Hyla arborea etc (well, strictly speaking they were blacklights/powertwists back then, the right idea but they were potentially dangerous). I did notice you were hunting out pictures a while back of the mysties natural habitat/climate etc and then incorporating those ideas into your cage build - Brilliant!. So, what I'm trying to say is, if you see your animal doing something in the wild then try and reproduce that in captivity, you'll have far more success than not i.e Tree frogs that are basking, well that's a pretty good indication that they benefit from the sun's rays does it not? - How it has taken so long for us as a whole to work this out absolutely baffles me!. If it wasn't for people like Lotte providing her excellent sticky thread on amphibians and UV I'm sure many people (not all) would still be stuck in the dark ages. So to get back to the point, DO experiment yourself pal! - You can do things that we can ALL learn from, and infact, I for one already am .
> 
> 
> *@Ron - Sorry about the Bumblebee's mate, but I do feel you should make the space, and CAN make the space , I don't need to tell you what a small species they are and like most 'phibs they're even more endearing in the flesh. Ask yourself this - Do I really need my fridgefreezer?
> 
> *
> @Ade - Good question regarding large private collections, I do think someone should start a thread on here where we all list the species we keep, could be really helpful in many ways I reckon, knowing who breeds and/or maintains what?
> 
> Off to bed now!
> Cheers
> Al


Yep; I do- not least because the golden treefrog tank lives on top of it!:lol2:

I totally get your point about personal experience- but I personally have benefited so much from others on here that I can't discount other's opinion without giving it some thought- and the UV debate is a wonderful example. Generally speaking, I don't use it with amphibians at all- after all, one of the many posited ideas for the world-wide decline is increased UV- but I took in your case at PRAS that it may well have improved breeding results with darts, plus Lottes' sticky- and if I eventually do get some I will give it serious thought. I wouldn't use it with any albino species though, because eye damage is such a risk- which is why I don't use it with my corn snake.


----------



## soundstounite

FOR MY SISTER
If you ever read this babe i am always here for you
love ya
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

I have had one of the hardest days of my life this week but as always life is a rollercoaster,today had some greatnews on the old froggy front :mf_dribble:...get in.:whistling2:..more on this later we have also got most of the planting done on the pebble viv
as always properly knackered
Will get them pics up soon
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

pebble viv photos,we think that the button fern low left will probably not make it ...but thought we would give it a shot,personally i bet it rots,we'll see,this is not quite finished yet but,tis nearly there
























We have been very busy getting our grub in the ground, so things are a bit slow at the mo,but thought it would be fun to see how all the vivs are doing at the end of march...with particular thoughts on plants 
So this is roughly in order of planting,some plants have failed but for the most part they seem to be doing quite well,also we are starting to see the some of the native mosses die back,others are doing well. Another little thought i have with the epiweb moss mix, is that we possibly don't use it in high enough densities when planting up a viv,i am expecting 6 months to a year for this stuff to really come good if given the best start...ie a wet one,and am working on the planting of said mix in a couple of ways ...directly to cork,very slow and time consuming, and using the natives as a carrier to create the localised humiidity, whilst the moss mix takes off...of course this might be counter productive if the native does well...time will tell.
Here we go 2 forty cubes planted sometime late last summer boston fern if thats what it is loves this frontal position and is putting out runners which grow into little plantlets,straight out of the cork...better seen on the left of the leucs viv ..later








good numbers of tropical woods in this tank they seem to like this one
second 40 planted same time








Leucs viv planted around late oct 2010 i think had to remove an ailminium plant from this tank too leggy and a brom that was getting to big...other than that the plants are doing well although have recently noticed a little problem on the seliginella not sure why it might just be fat leucs jumping on then or maybe the higher nitrogen levels caused by the frogs 








The next 2 up were also planted together maybe a 6 weeks ago..lots of the ficus didn't like the move but after a little while started to get going,i don't think we actually lost any though,the selliginella really took it hard,these might have to come out but they are improving tricky plant to grow well this,a drastic change in humidity and they can just go downhill overnight. thes are meant to be for tincs but i might just have to rethink not sure yet oh they are 50x50x40high








Native liverworts are doing ok here...bottom right.
and the other








little brom neo lilliputiana loves it in this tank lots of arail roots already ,keep this one too wet and it will fail for sure,ampullcea also rooting well,of course very early yet
and last up Mystie viv we lost out first oakleaf(well maybe not dead we will see) put another in its place you can't see it as it is back left broms also starting to arial root...again selliginella said no way properly this time,might have been to close to the light or not enough air circulation....they seem to do better i the air flow from bottom to top,all the ficus are just coming to terms with the new conditions at the moment just starting to see the first signs of new growth i think they will be ok,oh the native liverworts on the front and right are failing on the floor but on the vertical surface seem to be doing ok very strange i don't think this is dampness related but might just be too much light,strange one this.








As far as out 2 native ferns go polypodium vulgare is going great new croisiers springing up,the scolopendrium has slight darkmarkings on the edges of the leaves this might be the beginning of the end for this one,i expect it to fail ...the conditiong being to humid for it but i found these going in a very wet site ya never know they might just hang on
Take care all 
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

These are doing great, Stu! :2thumb::no1::2thumb: Goes to show what hard work and patience (not to mention talent and skill) can produce.


And I'm saying nuffink about native moss...:whistling2:


----------



## sambridge15

mopre outstanding vivs:thumb: really like the rockoflex stuff might have to give it a try next time


----------



## jme2049

These look incredible Stu:2thumb:
Top work mate.


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Stu, are you spraying those vivs? They look rather dry, wouldn't want that moss to dry out.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> These are doing great, Stu! :2thumb::no1::2thumb: Goes to show what hard work and patience (not to mention talent and skill) can produce.
> 
> 
> And I'm saying nuffink about native moss...:whistling2:


 Hey dude ,(awww thanks man)i'll take the first 2,yeah i do try F:censor:ing hard if i didn't do as good as i can i would be appalled at myself (no wish to be better than others just always compete against me lol),i don't cut myself a lot of slack,he he sometimes i guess i should but thats me.
That said the goals are to have a stable viv for many years(whether this is achievable ,we will find out when i am properly old:lol2 so it seems very much worth trying to go any bit extra that we can think of during the set up process.
ha ha well as far as the mosses go mate i really see them the same as all the plants,there will be successes and failurs,weighing up light and airflow are the biggies i guess ie placement is crucial. I also have a hunch that younger plants might do better...ref morgs blender,but thats the bit where i am trying to get a head start by having all these propergators.... in an effort to aclimatise said plants and grow em on with low airflow and high humidity (plus all the side benefits ...cost no chemicals bla bla).yeah me old mate we are getting there i THINK? slow but sure me old mucker
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

sambridge15 said:


> mopre outstanding vivs:thumb: really like the rockoflex stuff might have to give it a try next time


 cheers Sam,i know we have gone a bit out there as most use the silicone route,but the rocko coupled with epoxy or elastopur give such a strong background even as a beginner i really think it is worth looking at
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

jme2049 said:


> These look incredible Stu:2thumb:
> Top work mate.


 thanks mate...getting there!!


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Stu, are you spraying those vivs? They look rather dry, wouldn't want that moss to dry out.


 ha good spot me old mate:Na_Na_Na_Na:...yeah Shaz said you might get that,she sprayed real early yesterday,as we were out growing food till late she said i should have sprayed pre photo not after,but i wanted to have a real good look around most of em,and not get water every where during the process,as i can get me bonce half in to most of em....observant you are:2thumb:
Better get off and do stuff,just chillin for a while,tis me day off,he he off to play allotments, springtails, viv builds, maybe rubs,might even get to start the basti background,we have a plan!!! er well ish....need more hours in a day


----------



## stewie m

nice one stu more stunning vivs


----------



## s6t6nic6l

outstanding vivs. nice to see a bit of rockery creeping into these sort of setups : victory: (bias opinion :whistling2. good work in progress :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> nice one stu more stunning vivs


 lol well more of the same ,thanks though mate: victory:


----------



## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> outstanding vivs. nice to see a bit of rockery creeping into these sort of setups : victory: (bias opinion :whistling2. good work in progress :2thumb:


 Nah very valid opinion Nic,backgroung is plants/ substrate/wood and rock,shame if we don't utilise all four,oh an cheers for the outstanding,way too kind


----------



## soundstounite

Not often lady luck smiles on us,we went to see what Marc brought back from Hamm(DARTFROG.CO.UK) last week our special must see were auratus camo,and the powder blue tincs,as both have been on our carefully crafted wish list for yonks,anyway they were all sold before we got there,and i was my usual cautious self but...erm somebody didn't want the camos:gasp::gasp::gasp:
Ha but we did
Here ya go Ade,when we finally catch up they are high enough up in our rack so we can BOTH see them:2thumb:
They are of course auratus so one is of course shy but the other two well heck i dunno i am just hanging on....they started feeding within minutes of going in the viv so here are a couple of early shots we have 2 of the more blue pattern one with more grey,can't really beleive this has happened..it was not intended,just hope we can do justice to them oh and ....well in a mo eh
Direct from canada...germany....
























As i said Al uncanny,gobsmacked I am
Hmmm and this little guy,tis like this.... he's been under our noses for yonks,today he had decided to show Shaz who he was,yeah and soft old sod that i am ..yeah i clocked it,so he has come home too:gasp::blush:,this is the boldest dart i have yet seen we put him in what must seem to him a huge viv2'cube,and no hiding he set about trying to eat everything,truely stunning to watch,wish we had friends for him but they will come...he is called Aero,ha ya know,ha and we love him...god i hope we are ready for all this,but one thing is totally for sure we have enough grub....for them..... eran'some
















I am pretty much in shock...was recording me mates dads song till 2am then work then this....tuesdays are getting sureal.
BRING IT ON
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

oh yeah and these ahhhhhhh








night all


----------



## skyrat

Ok 3rd time lucky as its disapeared everytime i've pressed submit before!
just wanted to say how glad i was to see you guys get these little fellla's after you were so taken with them last week.
i've done so many frog miles its hard to believe that was just 7 days ago! although i'm still smarting on missing the jereboros by 2 days :devil:
I can never understand how people back out of deals like that buts its 
undoubtley worked out in the frogs favour this time!

You two underestimate yourselves as you have put in more ground work than any frogger i have ever met myself included :notworthy: its just a case of practical application and confidence now!

lee


----------



## JR.Exotics

soundstounite said:


> pebble viv photos,we think that the button fern low left will probably not make it ...but thought we would give it a shot,personally i bet it rots,we'll see,this is not quite finished yet but,tis nearly there
> image
> image
> image
> We have been very busy getting our grub in the ground, so things are a bit slow at the mo,but thought it would be fun to see how all the vivs are doing at the end of march...with particular thoughts on plants
> So this is roughly in order of planting,some plants have failed but for the most part they seem to be doing quite well,also we are starting to see the some of the native mosses die back,others are doing well. Another little thought i have with the epiweb moss mix, is that we possibly don't use it in high enough densities when planting up a viv,i am expecting 6 months to a year for this stuff to really come good if given the best start...ie a wet one,and am working on the planting of said mix in a couple of ways ...directly to cork,very slow and time consuming, and using the natives as a carrier to create the localised humiidity, whilst the moss mix takes off...of course this might be counter productive if the native does well...time will tell.
> Here we go 2 forty cubes planted sometime late last summer boston fern if thats what it is loves this frontal position and is putting out runners which grow into little plantlets,straight out of the cork...better seen on the left of the leucs viv ..later
> image
> good numbers of tropical woods in this tank they seem to like this one
> second 40 planted same time
> image
> Leucs viv planted around late oct 2010 i think had to remove an ailminium plant from this tank too leggy and a brom that was getting to big...other than that the plants are doing well although have recently noticed a little problem on the seliginella not sure why it might just be fat leucs jumping on then or maybe the higher nitrogen levels caused by the frogs
> image
> The next 2 up were also planted together maybe a 6 weeks ago..lots of the ficus didn't like the move but after a little while started to get going,i don't think we actually lost any though,the selliginella really took it hard,these might have to come out but they are improving tricky plant to grow well this,a drastic change in humidity and they can just go downhill overnight. thes are meant to be for tincs but i might just have to rethink not sure yet oh they are 50x50x40high
> image
> Native liverworts are doing ok here...bottom right.
> and the other
> image
> little brom neo lilliputiana loves it in this tank lots of arail roots already ,keep this one too wet and it will fail for sure,ampullcea also rooting well,of course very early yet
> and last up Mystie viv we lost out first oakleaf(well maybe not dead we will see) put another in its place you can't see it as it is back left broms also starting to arial root...again selliginella said no way properly this time,might have been to close to the light or not enough air circulation....they seem to do better i the air flow from bottom to top,all the ficus are just coming to terms with the new conditions at the moment just starting to see the first signs of new growth i think they will be ok,oh the native liverworts on the front and right are failing on the floor but on the vertical surface seem to be doing ok very strange i don't think this is dampness related but might just be too much light,strange one this.
> image
> As far as out 2 native ferns go polypodium vulgare is going great new croisiers springing up,the scolopendrium has slight darkmarkings on the edges of the leaves this might be the beginning of the end for this one,i expect it to fail ...the conditiong being to humid for it but i found these going in a very wet site ya never know they might just hang on
> Take care all
> Stu



Omg My friend you are an actual legend now in my eyes!! lol i dream of having this in my housee!!! or even owing it anywhere! well done mate honestly good job :2thumb:


----------



## jme2049

Got yourself quite a collection now Stu.
Love the Auratus mate they're stunning:2thumb:

P.s. Cute chicks!


----------



## soundstounite

skyrat said:


> Ok 3rd time lucky as its disapeared everytime i've pressed submit before!
> just wanted to say how glad i was to see you guys get these little fellla's after you were so taken with them last week.
> i've done so many frog miles its hard to believe that was just 7 days ago! although i'm still smarting on missing the jereboros by 2 days :devil:
> I can never understand how people back out of deals like that buts its
> undoubtley worked out in the frogs favour this time!
> 
> You two underestimate yourselves as you have put in more ground work than any frogger i have ever met myself included :notworthy: its just a case of practical application and confidence now!
> 
> lee


Lee that is so so kind,ha and yeah confidence will never be a strong point,and the respect is utterly recipricated,for you standing up and going and getting your little guys totally FAIRPLAY to you mate,and i know they will be going to a great gaff.
Ah man,life just doesn't give me a break...got home after a hectic day of graft to find out my little Robin managed to drown herself today...last week she was sat on my sofa,in my front room when we got back from Marc's last night she helped us do some chores...am so sad have lost my mate heartbroken,I am.
Ahh mate you'll get your jerbs,just a matter of time,
best always kiddo,you have just put a smile on a very sad guy's face,
THANKYOU
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

JR.Exotics said:


> Omg My friend you are an actual legend now in my eyes!! lol i dream of having this in my housee!!! or even owing it anywhere! well done mate honestly good job :2thumb:


 Cheers JR,yeah i dreamed of sommit like this as a child...still hard to beleive that we are making this happen, thankyou for the words mate
one very sad dude
Stu


----------



## Alex M

Hey, you got the Camo's Stu - Nice one mate! I thought of you when I saw them on Saturday, so really pleased they've gone to such a good home :2thumb:. Viv's look outstanding fella, there is an art to it and I'm happy when I do mine, but i think yours are simply BREATHTAKING*.

Cheers
Al

*Which reminds me - I need a smoke.


----------



## soundstounite

jme2049 said:


> Got yourself quite a collection now Stu.
> Love the Auratus mate they're stunning:2thumb:
> 
> P.s. Cute chicks!


 Well the beginnings of one mate,take me hat off to Mrs blackbird i think she has sorted these i bet she does another couple of clutches this summer.
yes mate they have that wonderful metallic blue that darts do so well,gotta feed the hell out of them now and try and get them as big and strong as we possibly can ...before they start thinking about hanky panky, they have the potential to be quite large frogs,if i have read every think right.....ya know they are a blt gangly like a 3/4 grown pup,we will see,time will tell just hoping we have a pair in there,
ah man i have to go outside tomorrow without my little bird being there to greet me when i open the door,as i said life is a rollercoaster,was so looking foward to chicks and maybe a line of super tame Robins,I guess i am very privilaged to have had these last few months ...for the second time in my life just so wish it could have been longer,
Gutted
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Alex M said:


> Hey, you got the Camo's Stu - Nice one mate! I thought of you when I saw them on Saturday, so really pleased they've gone to such a good home :2thumb:. Viv's look outstanding fella, there is an art to it and I'm happy when I do mine, but i think yours are simply BREATHTAKING*.
> 
> Cheers
> Al
> 
> *Which reminds me - I need a smoke.


 *Ha you and me both mate
As before me old mate uncanny how you called this:gasp:,......we must syncronise our trips...ha Al the words on the vivs are really kind,we both paint/draw and Shaz is equally responsible,she is chucking some wonderful ideas at our little project,but all said and done,our goal is trying to get a gaff that is fullfilling to the frogs,and that we don't have to mess with too much.
I am very lucky that there are two heads on this,so giving a diversity of ideas that one brain probably wouldn't come up with. Plus having worked with stock for a while(granted not phibs) i am truely lucky to have a stockman of her ability(eventhough she has no idea how good she is) beside me.
Mate you don't know of a lonely mystie lass(or 2) do you?
As always mate hit hard but be fluid,as Mr Lee said..be like water my friend,ere that moller guy knew some stuff,did i tell you i was privalaged to meet and watch Jim Chapin play...at 82...unbeleivable,oh mate i wish you could have been there,what an inspiration...hmm yeah i know off again :blush: 
be lucky mate 
Stu


----------



## Alex M

soundstounite said:


> *Ha you and me both mate
> As before me old mate uncanny how you called this:gasp:,......we must syncronise our trips...ha Al the words on the vivs are really kind,we both paint/draw and Shaz is equally responsible,she is chucking some wonderful ideas at our little project,but all said and done,our goal is trying to get a gaff that is fullfilling to the frogs,and that we don't have to mess with too much.
> I am very lucky that there are two heads on this,so giving a diversity of ideas that one brain probably wouldn't come up with. Plus having worked with stock for a while(granted not phibs) i am truely lucky to have a stockman of her ability(eventhough she has no idea how good she is) beside me.
> Mate you don't know of a lonely mystie lass(or 2) do you?
> As always mate hit hard but be fluid,as Mr Lee said..be like water my friend,ere that moller guy knew some stuff,did i tell you i was privalaged to meet and watch Jim Chapin play...at 82...unbeleivable,oh mate i wish you could have been there,what an inspiration...hmm yeah i know off again :blush:
> be lucky mate
> Stu


As stated mate - Superb. When you see every PDF enclosure just rammed with broms... Well... A little boring, but each to their own and that's just personal opinion - I like every terrarium to look a little different where possible. I like that you think outside of the box, we're very similar in that we design our terraria to what that species would find in the wild, the natural approach - hence why my M.stelzneri are in a savannah style setup as opposed to the usual cocofibre/rainforest setup, and why you've gone for the rocky approach with your lone mysteriosus rather than the usual tropical rainforest setup. I don't know anybody with any spares of that species mate, in all honesty I can only think of a couple of people I know that currently keep them... and you're 1 of them!. Either ask Marc, Ritchie or keep your eye's peeled on the Dendroworld classifieds, they would be your best bets - you don't see many of them because of their legal status. As for Jim Chapin, when I was helping out at my friends Drum shop in Bournemouth - He turned up one day! Lovely old boy, and there is a signed head proudly residing on Classic Drums wall to this day . Sorry about your robin aswell, I have a tame one (and also a blackbird) that I give mealworms to when I'm doing the rounds feeding my outdoor stuff - They quickly learn!.

Cheers
Al


----------



## soundstounite

Alex M said:


> As stated mate - Superb. When you see every PDF enclosure just rammed with broms... Well... A little boring, but each to their own and that's just personal opinion - I like every terrarium to look a little different where possible. I like that you think outside of the box, we're very similar in that we design our terraria to what that species would find in the wild, the natural approach - hence why my M.stelzneri are in a savannah style setup as opposed to the usual cocofibre/rainforest setup, and why you've gone for the rocky approach with your lone mysteriosus rather than the usual tropical rainforest setup. I don't know anybody with any spares of that species mate, in all honesty I can only think of a couple of people I know that currently keep them... and you're 1 of them!. Either ask Marc, Ritchie or keep your eye's peeled on the Dendroworld classifieds, they would be your best bets - you don't see many of them because of their legal status. As for Jim Chapin, when I was helping out at my friends Drum shop in Bournemouth - He turned up one day! Lovely old boy, and there is a signed head proudly residing on Classic Drums wall to this day . Sorry about your robin aswell, I have a tame one (and also a blackbird) that I give mealworms to when I'm doing the rounds feeding my outdoor stuff - They quickly learn!.
> 
> Cheers
> Al


Wow and a blackbird thats very cool,thanks mate am very sad about this,cheers too for the words on mysties.
And you have met him(Mr Chapin)Al he walked into the room and said look at me...I am an old man..but i have good technique...watch...truely mind blowing...what a man
Stu


----------



## richie.b

Thems nice frogs Stu, like the auratus they look good colours and if theyre out and about an even bigger bonus, you might struggle to find more adult mysties over here especially sexed ones, your best bet is Marc if not it will have to be Hamm and find someone before you go. I tried years ago to find an adult male couldnt even get one in hamm, but there is more about now.
You should have come to deadmeats meet on sunday we had a great day and you could have met all the froggers :2thumb:

Just had a thought Chrism on here and dw still has my old mysties he might sell at the right price wont hurt to ask


----------



## Wolfenrook

Pleased you got your frogs Stu.  Those auratus are stunners! Try giving them a 2 inch deep layer of leaf litter on the bottom, this usually really brings out the boldness in shy frogs, you might even see them climbing the glass doors right under your nose.  I know it's hard to break away from the moss look folks go for, but trust me, you're soon sold on the look once you've tried it, throw some pumilla cuttings on the top and pretty quickly you have something that actually looks like a rain forest floor. 

I don't get why people back out on reservations either, as I've never done it. I suppose some folks get there and just spot something different they'd rather have. Not complaining though, as Kroot deciding not to get that pair of Rio Napa vents meant I got them instead. So bet you are with me on the thanking folks who back out bit Stu. lol

Alex, with you completely that glass brom boxes can get a bit boring. Ok, broms are good, but there are lots of other ways to make a viv look good.  Leaf litter and wood are my fave things for this. A lot of the time you can't even see the broms, they're there for the frogs not the viewer. lol

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Thems nice frogs Stu, like the auratus they look good colours and if theyre out and about an even bigger bonus, you might struggle to find more adult mysties over here especially sexed ones, your best bet is Marc if not it will have to be Hamm and find someone before you go. I tried years ago to find an adult male couldnt even get one in hamm, but there is more about now.
> You should have come to deadmeats meet on sunday we had a great day and you could have met all the froggers :2thumb:
> 
> Just had a thought Chrism on here and dw still has my old mysties he might sell at the right price wont hurt to ask


 Thanks Richie,though two of the auratus have now gone all reclusive on us ...i guess they were hungry....for sure in time they will get used to us...they must have had a hell of a time comming from understory to PFI and then to marc then to us,i expect they are realing!!
I know that the mysties will be hard won mate but watching shaz,was just too much...old softy eh? and he is still out scouring the leaflitter bold as brass,funny cause he hasn't moved off the floor yet (and mysties have such a rep for climbing),ha too much grub there i suppose.
Aww mate we would have loved to go to the meet hope you all had a fantastic day,just care work is so difficult to get away from,especially at presant as me mates mum has been ill so needed to stand up and be counted as it were...
Thanks for the leads mate,we will follow them up as soon as the feelers i have put out are exhausted,be lucky kiddo
as always matee
THANKYOU
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Pleased you got your frogs Stu.  Those auratus are stunners! Try giving them a 2 inch deep layer of leaf litter on the bottom, this usually really brings out the boldness in shy frogs, you might even see them climbing the glass doors right under your nose.  I know it's hard to break away from the moss look folks go for, but trust me, you're soon sold on the look once you've tried it, throw some pumilla cuttings on the top and pretty quickly you have something that actually looks like a rain forest floor.
> 
> I don't get why people back out on reservations either, as I've never done it. I suppose some folks get there and just spot something different they'd rather have. Not complaining though, as Kroot deciding not to get that pair of Rio Napa vents meant I got them instead. So bet you are with me on the thanking folks who back out bit Stu. lol
> 
> Alex, with you completely that glass brom boxes can get a bit boring. Ok, broms are good, but there are lots of other ways to make a viv look good.  Leaf litter and wood are my fave things for this. A lot of the time you can't even see the broms, they're there for the frogs not the viewer. lol
> 
> Ade


 Firstly cheers mate,can't really beleive they are here,ha yeah i guess i am greatful too that folks back out:gasp::lol2: though equally mistified by it,only mentioned to Marc about the possibility of him getting more as you could tell from my earlier posts ,was going to try more of the patience thing...hmm so much for that.
Ha yeah mate i love me mosses ,but an hour or so of watching the leucs for me confirmed how much these darts love the leaf litter,and as a begginer how important it is to them,our commonest sight is of a bumblebee butt in the air head buried under a leaf trying to nail something tis wonderful the angles that they contort their bodies to in an effort to catch stuff under the leaves this has been equally echoed by the mystie as above,granted they have one hell of a lot of springs to go at not to mention all the other goodies so 100% agreement.Not seeing this quite yet with the auratus but as above time mate,once they get over all the moves.


----------



## soundstounite

Ha 4th of April thats a day to remember for us...officially speaking Happy our little Leuc is a fella,we were feeding this morn and he started calling he he








Awww GET IN !!!Ha got to say told ya to Shaz which was nice LMAO,we gotta have a trio at least now or i will be gobsmacked,shaz said how did i know ,ha still laughing,"er i dunno but i could do it when i was 8",funny as F***, auratus are still hiding but one is definitely getting more confident.
I guess we chucked too many springtails in the mystie tank,all he does is stomp about the floor all day nailing them...he simply is not bothered by us at all even opening the door doesn't phase him,this has really amazed me,he has only been here six days,man he will have to go some to clear all those springs though:lol2:,but hell he is trying:2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Odds n sods really there will be more later today,but while photos are loading for the third time:devil: thought i would bring this back up for tonight.
Firstly mrs blackbird is back sitting on her second clutch:no1:
Second lots of calling,from the leucs viv only not happy this time so we have 2 def males,yeah i know it seems daft naming them,but there is a very good reason,when you have multiples of one species,we can talk about a specific frog,and both ID him/her.
Will get back later on net being a complete pain:bash:


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Ooooooh could we be seeing babies soon!?


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Ooooooh could we be seeing babies soon!?


 Well it all depends on how long the lasses take mate,i think its still a bit early yet,but there is also a remote chance elsewhere see below,i doubt whether he will get to her after the ROAD TRIP an all the stresses as she must be about to pop.
So yesterday as some of you know(monday 18th of April Stu so you don't forget:whistling2 we had a nice day out to dat London well ish.
Our reason for the trip was these,they are unrelated to our little guy: "Aero" and are a fertile breeding trio, as you can see one little lass is heavily gravid,honestly in a way i wish she wasn't,as ladies are always a bit delicate when pregerrs.Sohere they are the other two are about feeding,but the big lass is keeping out of sight at the mo,they seem to have the usual don't care about people attitude that aero has ,but are slightly more withdrawn,but after nearly 3 hours travelling that is not surprising.If this machine is a bit more aimiable i will also take some pics of our traveling set up as it might be useful to some,ha even took a thermometer so we could keep an eye on things as we traveled.One little lesson we learned is best not to put film canasters in,as they might move during the journey...as ours did even though embedded in moss.
These are now in quarrantine:gasp: before they go to meet the other guy just to be on the safe side,so want them in the viv.
Really can't believe we found them so quick,i was expecting to have to get these from afar ie over the water,so am unbeleivably stoked:jump::jump::jump::jump:. ha they say good things come to those that wait,and these are something we wanted from the off.
Oh Al if you see this,yep I am concearned about the big lass but just for about a second last night me heart stopped,then the brain kicked in,Shaz said OMG,when she saw this,but i was able to say don't worry its just a sham one Mystie messing with 2 beginner dartsters:lol2:








ha and it continued to mess with us by remaining motionless till sometime in the night even after being righted








and the lass with a full tummy:mf_dribble:








ahhhhhh bless








t'other one,








So all in all 2 very happy frogsters,4 mysties,:flrt::flrt: one tired driver
be lucky guys
Stu


----------



## richie.b

Nice Stu, you were lucky getting these so easy, but i guess theyre getting more available. Anyone we know Stu :whistling2:


----------



## berksmike

Was about to ask the same lol


----------



## MARK.D

berksmike said:


> Was about to ask the same lol


Me too :whistling2:


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Nice Stu, you were lucky getting these so easy, but i guess theyre getting more available. Anyone we know Stu :whistling2:


 Yeah we were lucky,although if one factors in how long we have wanted,I guess all the homework pays off. Yeah i spose so mate,(he said keeping stum while we make up our minds on something,which you would say is a very good choice!!!)
Mate our would be first frogs were sold to someone else after the deal was done price agreed and everything,so you can see why I am being cagey although they are not your old ones thanks for the tip though mate but I had already asked about these and because am old,ha and fashioned couldn't follow up on your lead untill this had been resolved,me word is good mate.
Still disbelief though,things this cool don't normally happen to us ...especially twice on the trot,over the moon we are,ha you already know how much i need to see that big girl,rambling about (i know mate it'll be cool,can't change me though). Shaz wont let me call one Luke Fly Stalker,but you know why i have said that
ha what a joy can't believe it
Stu


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Yeah we were lucky,although if one factors in how long we have wanted,I guess all the homework pays off. Yeah i spose so mate,(he said keeping stum while we make up our minds on something,which you would say is a very good choice!!!)
> Mate our would be first frogs were sold to someone else after the deal was done price agreed and everything,so you can see why I am being cagey although they are not your old ones thanks for the tip though mate but I had already asked about these and because am old,ha and fashioned couldn't follow up on your lead untill this had been resolved,me word is good mate.
> Still disbelief though,things this cool don't normally happen to us ...especially twice on the trot,over the moon we are,ha you already know how much i need to see that big girl,rambling about (i know mate it'll be cool,can't change me though). Shaz wont let me call one Luke Fly Stalker,but you know why i have said that
> ha what a joy can't believe it
> Stu


Nosy bunch arent we 

I didnt think they were my old ones when you said you went to london for them, but ive got it sussed. Good names Luke Fly Stalker :2thumb:

I expect youll have a break from buying more for awhile save the pennies and all but whats next on the list


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Nosy bunch arent we
> 
> I didnt think they were my old ones when you said you went to london for them, but ive got it sussed. Good names Luke Fly Stalker :2thumb:
> 
> I expect youll have a break from buying more for awhile save the pennies and all but whats next on the list


 Hi mark,Hi mike,sorry as above ,yes bang on Rich very much need to be frugal,as you know none of this was planned,none of the mysties or the auratus,well not yet anyway,was going to sit on the leucs,but after such a slow long winded build up ,you can see why me heart has ruled abit lately, and with Shaz having grafted even when she souldn't ,i guess no one would blame me!!
Well as far as next,Rich after this who knows,I have booked some for the summer,got 2 vivs for azzies(Shaz fav frog) but its so difficult for any breeder to provide in advance,stuff happens ...after all its livestock,Was hoping for some Machetos but that might take longer than we hoped again stock issues. Plan is to keep cranking out the vivs,get em planted,seeded,keep banging out the plants,got another 10 pots of ficus started tonight,so more of the same really,ha but now with FROGS:mf_dribble:,the way this is all happening i wouldn't be surprised if some ruddy eggs appear just to throw a spanner in my plans,not really planned on tads or related issues till at least autumn:mf_dribble:,so basically what a ride am now just hanging on
ha bring it on
Stu


----------



## thething84

may i just say what an amazing build thread. all looks absolutly stunning. I must have been reading this for nearly 2 - 3 hours. This has certainly made my nightshift go quicker while waiting for my machine to finish. Keep up the good work. Absolutly fantastic. a credit to you and your hard work!!!!!


----------



## soundstounite

thething84 said:


> may i just say what an amazing build thread. all looks absolutly stunning. I must have been reading this for nearly 2 - 3 hours. This has certainly made my nightshift go quicker while waiting for my machine to finish. Keep up the good work. Absolutly fantastic. a credit to you and your hard work!!!!!


 Thanks mate,tis a rush doing this,we have got to meet some very cool peeps to and will meet many more I guess,so a thanks to all for the help,cheers guys:notworthy:.Glad you enjoyed,ha and it made your work a bit less taxing:2thumb:
Will try to load a few little pics for a bit later,and for you Jason if you see this: victory:
Stu


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Hi mark,Hi mike,sorry as above ,yes bang on Rich very much need to be frugal,as you know none of this was planned,none of the mysties or the auratus,well not yet anyway,was going to sit on the leucs,but after such a slow long winded build up ,you can see why me heart has ruled abit lately, and with Shaz having grafted even when she souldn't ,i guess no one would blame me!!
> Well as far as next,Rich after this who knows,I have booked some for the summer,got 2 vivs for azzies(Shaz fav frog) but its so difficult for any breeder to provide in advance,stuff happens ...after all its livestock,Was hoping for some Machetos but that might take longer than we hoped again stock issues. Plan is to keep cranking out the vivs,get em planted,seeded,keep banging out the plants,got another 10 pots of ficus started tonight,so more of the same really,ha but now with FROGS:mf_dribble:,the way this is all happening i wouldn't be surprised if some ruddy eggs appear just to throw a spanner in my plans,not really planned on tads or related issues till at least autumn:mf_dribble:,so basically what a ride am now just hanging on
> ha bring it on
> Stu


Well Stu in the frog game you got to get them while you can buddy, it could be a long time coming for the next lot, besides i think you can manage you havent really picked hard to keep darts. I do think you should get Shaz some azzies though and these are not hard to find, even if you just get some for the one viv and then get more from germany or similar for the other viv, as for the breeding just let it happen im sure you will cope, mind you i like pums for the reason i dont have to do any work when they breed the parents do it all for me, which is good through the summer when im busy with work, not that ive struggled to cope in the past :2thumb:
Have you put your plants back outside yet Stu, ive just out mine out got so many i havent got room for them indoors now :bash:

Richie


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Well Stu in the frog game you got to get them while you can buddy, it could be a long time coming for the next lot, besides i think you can manage you havent really picked hard to keep darts. I do think you should get Shaz some azzies though and these are not hard to find, even if you just get some for the one viv and then get more from germany or similar for the other viv, as for the breeding just let it happen im sure you will cope, mind you i like pums for the reason i dont have to do any work when they breed the parents do it all for me, which is good through the summer when im busy with work, not that ive struggled to cope in the past :2thumb:
> Have you put your plants back outside yet Stu, ive just out mine out got so many i havent got room for them indoors now :bash:
> 
> Richie


Yeah buddy,what I was saying is that the azzies are ordered,2 different lines for the summer(hopefully),of course we are going for the easier stuff first ,you know how cautious I am mate,gotta walk before we run!! 
Yes mate the breeding will come when it comes,but as you saw one mystie is heavily gravid,and things might just happen quicker than expected ,the other female is also laying we saw her kids about 4 days old,as you say an oppurtunity like this doesn't occur every day so as always its a case of go with the flow and grab: victory:
Yep mate some plants are out ...ha was going to ask you the same Q,all the broms are out ontop of the heatsink tank,in a netted tunnel i knocked up for them,and a few propergators,most are still in the room ,though, under lights.Will move these next week as I have a few days off,am seriously compremised for space,so desparately need to move,just time,which i will get soon,I hope:whistling2:


----------



## soundstounite

I posted this elsewhere but its worth putting here to i guess: this is the Mysties quarrantine set up,ha i so want them in the viv!!! Holes cut with holesaw...pop a bit of wodd under and go gentle as the plastic could crack when cutting,mesh as per vivs.
















Subs. orchid bark(coarse) with finer orchid/peat/ecoearth on top,then oak leaves.bit of oak bark,ficus pumilla and a tradescantia both which are too fast growing for me for my viv but ideal for this job!! a coco hut and a few film canasters for hiding. Oh note the bit of plastic drainpipe to drain excess water should we need to!!!


----------



## soundstounite

and a little safe way we moved the frogs to here just a clip top lunch box with a vent








and its contents ...moss for humidity and oakleaves for cover,and don't make the mistake I did of burying film canasters for hiding in the moss,they can move about in the journey,lesson learnt!!!!








These fit nice and snug in here just a simple lined box








We used a thermometer with a cable(sensor?) so we could monitor the temperatures inside the box with out having to open it and stress the frogs.
Ha i said we were being lucky lately,made ourselves a cup of cha at the services,well as far away from the mayhem as we could get,sat quiet overlooking some woodland,ha looked down and picked up my first ever 4 leaf clover:lol2:
seeya
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Slowly i guess we are getting towards the interesting bit the actual frog keeping not so much sticking glass or ali together,so after a very cool hour frog watching have had thoughts about a beginners take on our different darts,hoping this will build..... overtime..... into a ref for us and folks that pass by too.Eventually we will have quite a few species ,so am gonna jot down observations here,on each species,of course it will be jumbled,ha me usual randomness,but things that we see that one doesn't get in a book,stuff like this i s'pose:
Movement/feeding
Leucs : these guys are clumsy,over time bold,ours now know (after around 8 weeks) when grub is up,after a constant tapping of the feeder cup and food delivered they will show in around a minute,they are not very good at nailing stuff tending to bounce around,and strike not very effectively,very occassionally one will chase down a fly, a series of fast hops,totally different to how a mystie hunts
Mysties ours at least are stalkers tending to walk rather than hop,slowly moving in on prey,we do see ours jump,but its too early for me to say how often and how far ,esp with Areo having been in a small container which is as big as he can now jump,(don't know if he is fit yet).
Our auratus we only see one of,shame but still early,the guy that we do see is very sharp already he has the feed regime wired,shows just a bit after the luecs already!!!!!!( I say he because i am pretty shure he called today,very quite low buzz(could be me and old ears though:lol2. This guy is super athletic when compared to the other 2 species,very quick and accurate when stiking,able to jump way greater distances than the aforementioned species,just gotta be patient and wait for the other guys to show.
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Stu mate, did you know that Euro Rep do ready cut discs of mesh screen? Gaz put me onto them, bought a couple of 60mm diameter ones for a rearing box I made. They're dirt cheap too.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Stu mate, did you know that Euro Rep do ready cut discs of mesh screen? Gaz put me onto them, bought a couple of 60mm diameter ones for a rearing box I made. They're dirt cheap too.
> 
> Ade


 Nah I didn't Ade,thanks for that mucho gracias!! as it happens this all worked out well though,as we are building different sizes of viv, there is a bit of waste and we are utilising these off cuts,totally appreciate the heads up though!!! may well come in useful later, bugger is that i have to go and buy another big ol sheet as mine has nearly gone now,got 3 more awaiting background,glass everywhere,plants al over...they is some sanity here somewhere,ha and i know where,tis in front of those frogs:lol2:,tis total froggy madness here,yours all good mate?
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Aye bud, mostly. Been a bit low though as we had to rehome one of our dogs. She figured out door handles, which made it impossible to keep them apart.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Aye bud, mostly. Been a bit low though as we had to rehome one of our dogs. She figured out door handles, which made it impossible to keep them apart.
> 
> Ade


 hardcore mate can't imagine how hard that was:gasp:,my old GSP was like that, super bright,open doors do a packet of crisp by ripping the top off and holding them between her paws,knew a huge amount of words too,TOTALLY feel for ya bro,hard when ya loose stuff or have to let it go...very hard,chin up bro you got tads to lookout for:2thumb: ,yeah I know its not a consolation mate,but i try to suffer with PMA (posative mental attitude:lol2 gets stuff done when sh*ts bad anyway 
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Vindication,:lol2::lol2: well sort of,as ya know a mate of mine kick all this off,some time last summer we were disscussing our first viv,I told him laughingly that this is a calling perch...on day there is gonna be a little leuc calling off here,right up front and personal like,ok I slightly missed the shot bloody camera niose an all but what the hell ...get in








ok enough back to it
I guess this is our biggest real challenge yet,a viv for oophaga,in this case its the cematary morph of pumillio,yeah my american friends have been helping me get my head round all this ; there are 3 main morphs on the isle of bastimentos: red frog beach,salt creek and what we are after the above cematary form.Although it touted as an easier pum this one is a bit special as darts go because its polymorphic,ie the SAME morph has many colour forms,oh and just to add and mess with one,the red form can't be distinguished from the redfrog beach,so without collection data one might be doing that most hienous of dartster crimes mixing morphs,if you look at www.tropicalexperiance.nl pum morph guide there are 12 pics for this morph,ha thats so cool:gasp:.So the frogs are eons a way but we gotta make their gaff,and the reason its the biggest challenge yet ...'cause the kids will be raised in here so if it ain't on the money will be scuppered,substate will be massively important here i guess as this is where the kids will get most nosh,so our parameters have beem set for a deeper than normal subs. and as much of it as poss. Note more cork at the front,we are also trying to gvie the adults the maximum climbing frame,masses of laying/ tad rearing sites,so its with not a little trepidation that we build this!!!
So here's the start








cork and a few bits of oak
then a few more planters.ha and as ever a few clouds: these will be used to "hang" our lonicera off just in case it fails.Note oak is predrilled just to aid the many brom placement,mainly neos. Also the areas to be foamed have been siliconed in to make the stuff stick.
Oh guys a sillyness spreading silicone: everyone uses a creditcard (and complains how messey it is.LMAO..DOH) silicone sticks to plastic don't use a creditcard,get a bit of softwood thin say 5mm carve/ sharpen it to a cheisil edge,pop this in water with a bit of squeezey for a few days,now when you need a spreaded use this just dab off the excess water and the silicone doesn't stick.... ha one can even cut wet silicone with this,its how one gets a good bead too,well with practice eh Richie?
anyway viv
































So Nic if you see this its gonna be proper tight wielding that foam in there ,as you can i guess see.
oh and thats why planters separate guy...just easier.
Now about that auratus viv..........


----------



## soundstounite

Hear we go ,one 1/2 done tank for 5 auratus morph.....:whistling2::bash::flrt:
Lots of hiding will be created using overhanging plants along the back and also by a stonking bit of oak...don't find these often:mf_dribble:,one of our strange sizes this 60cmsq.base 40 high








and with wood
















a couple of extra planters will be added later 
And finally aprox 1 desertspoon full of goodness 








say 5 mins to harvest,these are a tiny springtail,I guess there is more than 5 there:lol2:,now who said recycling doesn't ROCK,
bring it on
Stu


----------



## FrogNick

:2thumb:


----------



## FrogNick

So Nic if you see this its gonna be proper tight wielding that foam in there said:


> stu was this commet amied at me?


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> *a bit of softwood thin say 5mm carve/ sharpen it to a cheisil edge,pop this in water with a bit of squeezey for a few days,now when you need a spreaded use this just dab off the excess water and the silicone doesn't stick...*.


Now that is a useful tip!:2thumb:

I'm loving the way your designs are species-specific, as well, Stu!


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> :2thumb:


 Thanks Nic,greatly appreciated,mate the second comment was directed at another Nic,whose just showed us a cracking Firebellied viv,and we were discussing rocks and stuff. While we are talking mate how heavy/fat are your mystie fella/s?do you have a couple of pics you could show me,of course i have seen the pic we talked about,but that could have been a lass. These frogs seem very unlike most other darts we have seen in the way they move,hunt etc. and my 2 guys are much slimmer,am wondering if every thing is right with them. I know you have been at this (and study:notworthy for much longer than ourselves would appreciate any thoughts really on them 
Thanks again mate
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Man, I love that low, deep auratus viv, looks really cool.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Now that is a useful tip!:2thumb:
> 
> I'm loving the way your designs are species-specific, as well, Stu!


 The tip comes off building houses Ron,its how they get all the silicone around the windows/baths, spot on. Have meant to pop it in for yonks just forget:gasp:.A smaller bit of wood for building the tanks,mate
The second part is hugely important Ron,to us,ha and hopefully the frogs,but its a tricky one espcially with say the Tincs, and the auratus which both inhabit similar niches,and even moreso with the,different morphs within a species. I need to do more reserch here,to try and find out if there is more detail to be had. It may well be that most different morph populations are inhabiting the same environmental niche just in isolated populations,which is what i believe is the case but there are likely exceptions..say my beloved bronz giant auratus,which are found at altitude.I am pretty sure mate that if money were no object then tailoring the plants would be the next step, biotope is the correct word ,is it not?
Its a big thing this building a bit or a vast rain forest in a glass box,and trying to include all the little things that hopefully will give the frogs,a happy fulfilling and chalenging life,all human analogies i know but you know what i am getting at, ...:gasp:better get back to that citrons tank eh,the one i spent yonks hollowing out a stump last night,for a planter ,ha you'll see 
Stu


----------



## FrogNick

soundstounite said:


> Thanks Nic,greatly appreciated,mate the second comment was directed at another Nic,whose just showed us a cracking Firebellied viv,and we were discussing rocks and stuff. While we are talking mate how heavy/fat are your mystie fella/s?do you have a couple of pics you could show me,of course i have seen the pic we talked about,but that could have been a lass. These frogs seem very unlike most other darts we have seen in the way they move,hunt etc. and my 2 guys are much slimmer,am wondering if every thing is right with them. I know you have been at this (and study:notworthy for much longer than ourselves would appreciate any thoughts really on them
> Thanks again mate
> Stu


they are fat quite round will take afew more pics of them and post them on here if you like?


----------



## richie.b

.... ha one can even cut wet silicone with this,its how one gets a good bead too,well with practice eh Richie?


That comes from 30 years of decorating and using decorators chaulk :2thumb:
i have got a proper tool but i still like using my finger, that sounds bad doesnt it :blush:

And Stu my mysties were big and fat as well even the male. 

And my salaginella in my mantella viv seems to be doing ok its nearly doubled in size, and now it will die :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> .... ha one can even cut wet silicone with this,its how one gets a good bead too,well with practice eh Richie?
> 
> 
> That comes from 30 years of decorating and using decorators chaulk :2thumb:
> i have got a proper tool but i still like using my finger, that sounds bad doesnt it :blush:
> 
> And Stu my mysties were big and fat as well even the male.
> 
> And my salaginella in my mantella viv seems to be doing ok its nearly doubled in size, and now it will die :lol2:


 Ha you paint mate...I always wondered,guessed it was sommit around rummin houses,ha me too with the finger...yep it does sound bad:mf_dribble::lol2:
Mysties are messing with me mate,tell me kiddo how big was your viv?
Nah your selliginella will be fine,if it doesn't go pants early ,then they seem to be ok,there's your get out of jail card right there:2thumb:
Be lucky buddy
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

How many vivs have you got left stu?


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Man, I love that low, deep auratus viv, looks really cool.


 thanks mate,ha we'll see after i have done the foamy stuff,and the rest....well I hope we'll see...er maybe i won't if the last experiance is anything to go by:blush::bash:,ha nice bit of wood though eh?...get in,no bucks just walking round stunning woodlands,with ones eyes open...hard life init
stu


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> How many vivs have you got left stu?


 Hello dude just been writing to you:2thumb:.... lots mate,when these 3 are done we'll have 10. Depending on what size the last rack will be(corner logistics).
Paul our room total will either be21 or 24 total. That might be not a definative answer though as i am not taking into account tad and rearing facilities, but thats the number of rack spaces, so one hell of alot of graft to go yet,not even half way i guess,but lets not go there,lets go the glass is half full...NOT half empty:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Yeah you're definitely on your way!

I'm still deciding on rack options and I only have 3 vivs, so don't feel bad about taking your time :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Yeah you're definitely on your way!
> 
> I'm still deciding on rack options and I only have 3 vivs, so don't feel bad about taking your time :lol2:


:lol2: nah not feeling bad mate,especailly with the way we are doing this,all recycled and from scratch an' all,each tank is a milestone to us.I try not to put parameters of time on these types of project,one day it WILL be sorted,thats where my brain stops,otherwise it wouldn't be possible,one would go nuts with deadlines. Besides, now i don't give much thought to complition,we got frogs to look after:mf_dribble: Our saying is this
We just keep banging our heads against the wall,untill the mother :censor: falls down!!
Ha in a while tell me whats up with this citron viv...am onit
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Citronella viv...(Dendrobates tinctorius for other beginners) as usual a little cork around the edges,and some more good ol english oak,hmm I'm guessing someone might have heard that before:lol2: but this time a stump,of a youngish tree that succumed (is that a word?) gonna use this as a planter probably with a quercifolia in. first a holesaw a BIG hammer and a chisel were used to do this,bloody thing was so hard it broke me bit soddin' hell anyway we won here is the damage after a while of cursing and also aching limbs:gasp:,seriously if you are using a holesaw to do this be very careful if you get the angles slightly wrong the drill stops dead and you go round,be careful!!!!









also took the back off with a chainsaw just to flaten it out abit and proped it with a couple of bits of polystyrene,missed a good opportunity here to make these into rocks but was to wrapped up in doing,never mind








Banged in a few planters siliconed up the back added another but of oak to the right as a perch dry area and this is about ready for foaming along with the other 2,I figured if i do three at once then i have only a third of the chance of not being able to see for a while....DOH:lol2:
























Take care all 
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

OOOOOO i forgot,please be aware of the modern art,white polystyrene obelisk,this is hugely important...LMAO


----------



## soundstounite

Richie,what do you think,heavy/fat enough?
Mate he's such a cool little fella,so unafraid its not true, I'm trying to work out with all this,wanting a lady,he is eating enough?
Stu


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> image
> image
> Richie,what do you think,heavy/fat enough?
> Mate he's such a cool little fella,so unafraid its not true, I'm trying to work out with all this,wanting a lady,he is eating enough?
> Stu


Looks ok Stu, and im sure will get a bit more meat on him with Shaz feeding them up :2thumb: Heres a picture of mine

male










female









Richie


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Looks ok Stu, and im sure will get a bit more meat on him with Shaz feeding them up :2thumb: Heres a picture of mine
> 
> male
> 
> image
> 
> female
> image
> 
> Richie


 Very cool Rich,and very greatful you took the time to do that for us:notworthy:,nah they're not that disimilar,your old fella to our chaps,:lol2: we have spent to long looking at FAT leucs.I'm sure he will put more on especially when they all get together and he's not trying to track the others as I am pretty sure thats whats happening.
Oh saw all three auratus today well Shaz did so thats another good thing,its the first time we have seen them all out since we got them,just time now mate,did i mention we have a definite male we both heard him calling for the second time,its the brave one,lets hope one of the others is a lass. I am quite chuffed as a friend in holland whom keeps lots of auratus said he has often had six females so a fella is a great start.
Mate really kind of you to pop them pics up for us,I know its a second time thanks,but its definitely worth saying.
Ha one day we'll meet up,i guess well we have to have an enthralling dicussion on whether either of us has worked out which is the right end of a paint brush,i started painting when i was a kid,my Gran has a stone she used to use as a door stop,i had painted i bird on it for her and dated it,i was very very young,the biggy is though,what the hell was my mum doing letting me loose with OIL PAINTS at such a tender age.

ha and yes Shaz is on the grub mate,came in yesterday with a great blob of greenfly for em,off nettles,its just trying to make her relax a bit,and enjoy a bit more,these little guys are doing her a lot of good mate
Stu


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Very cool Rich,and very greatful you took the time to do that for us:notworthy:,nah they're not that disimilar,your old fella to our chaps,:lol2: we have spent to long looking at FAT leucs.I'm sure he will put more on especially when they all get together and he's not trying to track the others as I am pretty sure thats whats happening.
> Oh saw all three auratus today well Shaz did so thats another good thing,its the first time we have seen them all out since we got them,just time now mate,did i mention we have a definite male we both heard him calling for the second time,its the brave one,lets hope one of the others is a lass. I am quite chuffed as a friend in holland whom keeps lots of auratus said he has often had six females so a fella is a great start.
> Mate really kind of you to pop them pics up for us,I know its a second time thanks,but its definitely worth saying.
> Ha one day we'll meet up,i guess well we have to have an enthralling dicussion on whether either of us has worked out which is the right end of a paint brush,i started painting when i was a kid,my Gran has a stone she used to use as a door stop,i had painted i bird on it for her and dated it,i was very very young,the biggy is though,what the hell was my mum doing letting me loose with OIL PAINTS at such a tender age.
> 
> ha and yes Shaz is on the grub mate,came in yesterday with a great blob of greenfly for em,off nettles,its just trying to make her relax a bit,and enjoy a bit more,these little guys are doing her a lot of good mate
> Stu


No problem Stu you know me mate if ive got a photo ill bung it up, never tire of looking at peoples photos me.
Well if your going to ukfrog day which i suggest you do, have a look on the website at the list of darts for sale there, anyway as i was saying if you do go we will meet then, you wont miss me ill be the one behind a table full of vivs and plants :2thumb:. Tell Shaz i spent half hour the other day out the garden looking for greenfly and found 3 and ive got loads of wild roses in the hedges and nothing, might be something to do with the 4 nest boxes of blue tit chicks ive got mind. Ive just ordered some pea and wheat aphids so will give them a go.
Yep Stu been a decorator since i left school couple of years ago :whistling2:Thats my real business and pays the bills the frog thing just for fun and to help pay for the hobby: victory:

be lucky
Richie


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> No problem Stu you know me mate if ive got a photo ill bung it up, never tire of looking at peoples photos me.
> Well if your going to ukfrog day which i suggest you do, have a look on the website at the list of darts for sale there, anyway as i was saying if you do go we will meet then, you wont miss me ill be the one behind a table full of vivs and plants :2thumb:. Tell Shaz i spent half hour the other day out the garden looking for greenfly and found 3 and ive got loads of wild roses in the hedges and nothing, might be something to do with the 4 nest boxes of blue tit chicks ive got mind. Ive just ordered some pea and wheat aphids so will give them a go.
> Yep Stu been a decorator since i left school couple of years ago :whistling2:Thats my real business and pays the bills the frog thing just for fun and to help pay for the hobby: victory:
> 
> be lucky
> Richie


Doh I missed that they had put the frogs up for sale mate,we will check the site,really am hoping to go mate.
Well if you like looking at froggy pics the thankyou will be best done like this i guess,first though,have you a seycomore might besome GF's there?
Yep the old bluetits are very cool for removing this usually unwanted pest,I think its more down to that cold snap though there are fewer than normal here,normally we get a good build up and then natures little army sorts it,but its hellish slow this season,here ya go mate
the pie lady,trying to eat her way though shaz's food,good job we don't have to buy much or i would have to find more work to pay just for her grub
























bay leaf getting in some supper








Aero chillin








cheers mate
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

doh repeat on the 2nd pic sorry mate got lost:blush: 2nd pic is bayleaf i am guessing thats our 2 girls and the other 3 are fellas,I know we have 2 males.saffron is the unknown,who i always thought was a girl,but not so sure now 5 is very small and a bit slighter think male, time will tell if we are right 
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Nice weight on all frogs there Stu.


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Nice weight on all frogs there Stu.


 Cheers mate the logic behind the youngsters is feed the hell out of 'em whilst growing,then we will back off a little bit once the calling and sex start,just trying to get em as strong and as big as poss,doing the same with the auratus,and even though we only see one eating the other two are looking good,although still hellish shy,but its coming mate they just need time
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Well this afternoon has come and gone...and i can still see:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb: Yep back playing with expanding foam,he he.
Started off as a complete mare,connected up the gun and it wouldn't seal,so foamed a binbag:lol2:,disconected it,cleaned it...ALL WITH SAFETY GLASSES ON,gave it a blummin good talking to:censor::censor::censor: stipped it down and sorted,after that absolutely NO DRAMAS,no mess,no foam where i didn't want it totally all good a walk in the park,3 vivs sorted in no time,so to the obligitory pics
Pum
























Auratus
























citronella
























Tips
ok repeated, but not everyone is gonna remember all this stuff,spray all your viv with water before you start,and once you have finished,this will help your foam cure properly. As the foam starts to harden one can mould it into the desired shape,,but wear gloves.
and keep your safty glasses on untill you really have finished.
I know lots like gorrilla glue, but i doubt one can work it like one can this foam, on the verticle an all.....well if it all goes as it should !!!!
ha take care y'all next step rockoflex,get some optiwhite for the top back so the uvb gets to the frogs,epoxy and bla bla bla
sorted and stoked
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Here some early snaps of our male camo,ha your gonna have to be patient with the other 2, ha like me init:Na_Na_Na_Na:while we are on these does anyone else keep camo here,you can pm me if ya like or reply here.Superfast and superfit








































a mystie








and fivespice having it large:2thumb:








seeya
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Avec le rockoflex



















































Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Whem i am almost tripping with tiredness i oft go one of 2 ways creative or thoughtful, So thoughtful eh,this thread is about a number of things,watching a guy try to make an idea happen,trying to show that we can all keep these stunning frogs even if we are not loaded,but you want it enough,a reference for me and others.Sometimes its the mistakes that are important,sometimes its the results.
for today a result. 
We have all read Lotte's wonderful thread on uvb coupled with Mworks thead that so graphically demonstrates this.Uvb dosent pass well through normal glass somthing to do with its iron content,but there is a low iron glass called optiwhite made by Pilkingtons,which lets uvb through,the problem is its about 3 times as expensive as normal glass.My local glazier wanted £15 for a bit 50x15cm,we worked on this and had to travel,but today came home with the equivalent of 9 I repeat9 times this(yeah i gotta cut it,but i couldn't do that at the beginning of this either) for £20
GET IN!!! That should take care of the uvb needs of the next few vivs,and yeah i found a 4 leaf clover and yeah i think I'm lucky but be stubborn guys don't let the fact that something is unobtainable get in your way its just sometimes a matter of head down,and bash your way through it,
sermon over LMAO:lol2:
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Wow! Nice find. Seriously.


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Whem i am almost tripping with tiredness i oft go one of 2 ways creative or thoughtful, So thoughtful eh,this thread is about a number of things,watching a guy try to make an idea happen,trying to show that we can all keep these stunning frogs even if we are not loaded,but you want it enough,a reference for me and others.Sometimes its the mistakes that are important,sometimes its the results.
> for today a result.
> We have all read Lotte's wonderful thread on uvb coupled with Mworks thead that so graphically demonstrates this.Uvb dosent pass well through normal glass somthing to do with its iron content,but there is a low iron glass called optiwhite made by Pilkingtons,which lets uvb through,the problem is its about 3 times as expensive as normal glass.My local glazier wanted £15 for a bit 50x15cm,we worked on this and had to travel,but today came home with the equivalent of 9 I repeat9 times this(yeah i gotta cut it,but i couldn't do that at the beginning of this either) for £20
> GET IN!!! That should take care of the uvb needs of the next few vivs,and yeah i found a 4 leaf clover and yeah i think I'm lucky but be stubborn guys don't let the fact that something is unobtainable get in your way its just sometimes a matter of head down,and bash your way through it,
> sermon over LMAO:lol2:
> Stu


Well Stu tell your local glazier hes a con artist mate, i will soon be making all my vivs out of optiwhite, once ive used up the last of my other glass. Well i say all only ones made from 4mm glass which apart from some bases of 6mm is pretty much all. The reason being my glass supplier now only gets opti white in to make there sealed window units, its also the same price as i pay for ordinary glass, sorted.
I wont tell you how much that is though :whistling2:

Richie


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Wow! Nice find. Seriously.


Thanks mate..i know you are chuffed for us, cheers dude .offcuts is the key word here, (we actually use quite small bits of glass) and of course the ruddy homework.
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

richie.b said:


> Well Stu tell your local glazier hes a con artist mate, i will soon be making all my vivs out of optiwhite, once ive used up the last of my other glass. Well i say all only ones made from 4mm glass which apart from some bases of 6mm is pretty much all. The reason being my glass supplier now only gets opti white in to make there sealed window units, its also the same price as i pay for ordinary glass, sorted.
> I wont tell you how much that is though :whistling2:
> 
> Richie


Richie. Make fish tanks. If you can build some decent quality optiwhite tanks there's definitely a market for it.

Opti-White High Clarity | Buy Opti-White High Clarity Online

The smaller ones are 6mm, sure you could beat those prices.


----------



## richie.b

Morgan Freeman said:


> Richie. Make fish tanks. If you can build some decent quality optiwhite tanks there's definitely a market for it.
> 
> Opti-White High Clarity | Buy Opti-White High Clarity Online
> 
> The smaller ones are 6mm, sure you could beat those prices.



wow theyre expensive, tanks are easier to make than vivs as well, to be honest i think ill forget making anything and just sell the sheets of glass:lol2:

And sorry Stu didnt mean to but a downer on your bargain just was shocked at the price thats all, mind you thats what happens when you live in posh expensive parts of the country :2thumb:

Richie


----------



## Morgan Freeman

I'd seriously consider it. Try www.ukaps.org see if you can drum up some customers :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> wow theyre expensive, tanks are easier to make than vivs as well, to be honest i think ill forget making anything and just sell the sheets of glass:lol2:
> 
> And sorry Stu didnt mean to but a downer on your bargain just was shocked at the price thats all, mind you thats what happens when you live in posh expensive parts of the country :2thumb:
> 
> Richie


:lol2: Ha don't be daft mate,no downer there at all i still think £20 for nearly 2.5msq of glass aint too bad as a one off sale ,and yeah i know our local guy is expensive ...haven't used him yet doubt i ever will:lol2:I know if i bought by the sheet the prices would come down,but i can't move big quantities or store it so am scuppered at pres.
Ha nah mate we live down in the vale,tis the cheepo bit,if one goes up the hill then everything goes totally silly.... stupidly so.... can't, beat the cotswolds thats the posh end £300k for a poxy little townhouse,they can keep it:mf_dribble:and my god its 2 coats colder up there in the winter
Stu


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> :lol2: Ha don't be daft mate,no downer there at all i still think £20 for nearly 2.5msq of glass aint too bad as a one off sale ,and yeah i know our local guy is expensive ...haven't used him yet doubt i ever will:lol2:I know if i bought by the sheet the prices would come down,but i can't move big quantities or store it so am scuppered at pres.
> Ha nah mate we live down in the vale,tis the cheepo bit,if one goes up the hill then everything goes totally silly.... stupidly so.... can't, beat the cotswolds thats the posh end £300k for a poxy little townhouse,they can keep it:mf_dribble:and my god its 2 coats colder up there in the winter
> Stu


Yer £20 for 2.5msq is a good price, i only buy mine by the msq Stu i cant handle anything bigger myself and most of the time i get that cut in half as most of the vivs i make are 50cm or less bases. I did make myself one yesterday 100x50x100cm that took nearly 4msq of glass to build, and another 100x50x50cm for myself as well as ones ordered and for frogday so i get through a lot of glass another reason i get good prices. This is why i can keep my prices down on the vivs which is good : victory:

Richie


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

richie.b said:


> Yer £20 for 2.5msq is a good price, i only buy mine by the msq Stu i cant handle anything bigger myself and most of the time i get that cut in half as most of the vivs i make are 50cm or less bases. I did make myself one yesterday *100x50x100cm* that took nearly 4msq of glass to build, and another 100x50x50cm for myself as well as ones ordered and for frogday so i get through a lot of glass another reason i get good prices. This is why i can keep my prices down on the vivs which is good : victory:
> 
> Richie


Thats a mammoth viv, whats going in there, bet that going to take a lot of planting. Make sure to put up pics!!


----------



## richie.b

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Thats a mammoth viv, whats going in there, bet that going to take a lot of planting. Make sure to put up pics!!


Yer it is a bigun, hopefully some treefrogs but depends if all goes to plan next week. And it will take a lot of planting luckily i know someone who supplies some really nice plants :whistling2:

Richie


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

richie.b said:


> Yer it is a bigun, hopefully some treefrogs but depends if all goes to plan next week. And it will take a lot of planting luckily i know someone who supplies some really nice plants :whistling2:
> 
> Richie


Oh damn wish I knew someone:lol2: Will most likely be buying a few from you at frog day. You cannot tempt me with any ready planted vivs though, as I will buy more frogs and I am not allowed. 

Sorry Stu, i'm taking your thread off track:lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Yer £20 for 2.5msq is a good price, i only buy mine by the msq Stu i cant handle anything bigger myself and most of the time i get that cut in half as most of the vivs i make are 50cm or less bases. I did make myself one yesterday 100x50x100cm that took nearly 4msq of glass to build, and another 100x50x50cm for myself as well as ones ordered and for frogday so i get through a lot of glass another reason i get good prices. This is why i can keep my prices down on the vivs which is good : victory:
> 
> Richie


 yeah mate good for everyone fairplay mate,i haven't read the rest yet but i'll lay a bet we are talking terribilis,ha this is cool !
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Yer it is a bigun, hopefully some treefrogs but depends if all goes to plan next week. And it will take a lot of planting luckily i know someone who supplies some really nice plants :whistling2:
> 
> Richie


 what you talking about i haven't got any spare plants....yet:lol2::lol2::lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Oh damn wish I knew someone:lol2: Will most likely be buying a few from you at frog day. You cannot tempt me with any ready planted vivs though, as I will buy more frogs and I am not allowed.
> 
> Sorry Stu, i'm taking your thread off track:lol2:


 don't worry mate simply not bothered,and you'ld have to do more than a couple of comments to get this off the rails:lol2:,Its nice to here what me OLD:Na_Na_Na_Na: mate Richie's up to(he'll still put some stonking great terribilis in that big old viv though:mf_dribble: he just hasn't realised yet).
So Rich what were the glass thicknesses you used for your biggy? hmm maybe that should be rephrased....nah
seeya guys
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

See back on da rails
'Ere guys, we have all read about this uvb stuff ,a little observation:
our room is north facing when the sun gets up a tiny shaft of sunlight catches the end 2 stories of the 12 viv rack. The middle last tank holds the auratus.I have monitored the temps of the viv in the sun carefully and as Ian pointed out to me the effects are not that great,viv doesn't go above 74F during this period,the sun leaves the room around 9am depending of course on the time of year,anyway. First thing,on a sunny day, the auratus are out stood up kinda stiff legged sunbathing,of course they are still very shy but its comming. Eventually i will nail some pics,but as i don't believe in waking up untill i have finished work its not the best time of day for me to have my act together,interesting though all the same.
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

some early shots of the 3 vivs,just after epoxy,wow that pum viv was a close call,knew it would be,just got the epoxy on and Shaz nailed the eco/peat mix,within 10 mins the epoxy had started to go off,ha just enough time for me to coat up the auratus viv though hell my brush was Smokin' ha all those years of painting everything from a panda to a narrow boat paid off bigstyle here,even managed to sneak in a rock on the citron viv,we were really moving though.I kinda saw this was going to be manic,and for the first time masked up all the wood in the pum viv which just gave us the edge,but all good 2 nailed plus the rock which can only be partially seen as it still needs to set,as do the other two really so just a heads up
pum








auratus
















and the beginnings of a rock,ha your guess is nearly as good as mine on what this will look like,its all about how the dark stained epoxy bleeds into the dust,tomorrow will tell,providing the epoxy is cured.








so properly hectic but stoked that the pum viv didn't go pair shaped
bring it on ....
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

her's some pics of the citronella viv with its final coat,and a close up of the improvised rock,not totally planned ,but as the build progressed we improvised, this is how it looks after a good wash .









and the viv backgroud sorted bar a clean up
























We also finished off the climbing frame for the red basti viv: this is lonicera,it is almost a push fit ...ie under tension,just a blob of silicon to secure one bit. I have reservations as to how long this will last under viv conditions,so it can be ripped out easily if necessary.as a mate said this is the beginnings of the frog highway...the plants will provide the rest
























also managed to get the top on, and all the holes drilled out so getting close on this.
and thats me shattered 
seeya
Stu


----------



## A7X

Looks really nice. Where did you get your green moss from to do that?


----------



## soundstounite

A7X said:


> Looks really nice. Where did you get your green moss from to do that?


 cheers !!
do you mean on the stump?if so it was growing there naturally,some of our natives seem to do well in our vivs some will die after a few months,its just knowing which ones,and i have an idea now by eye ,but no names, unfortunately,somewhere's backalong,i think i posted a few names there are definitly some liverwort names 
thanks for the interest
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Well he said trying not to dwell on life:bash:
Here's a shot of the top of one of the vivs,starting to impliment this uv thing,and trying to take it a bit furthur than just a uvb light,the back bit of glass is optiwhite which lets uvb through the front normal,the reasoning is the frogs can move to utilise the light that they want,or move away to a lower uvb intake if they so desire. The more we go into this the more we discover reports of wild darts sunbathing so its gotta be worth a shot








am here with the 3 vivs that are underway,also doors are made for the citrons gaff,but i forgot to snap em as with the fungii...anyway
Pums need doors and sorted








citronella ready for planting








and nearly there on the auratus just runners and doors to sort








Been meaning to take our water up a notch for a while,so here's another stage we have just started to impliment,as these 3 butts have now run dry first stage (flower pot) will be a pillow case to remove all bits of stuff, second flower pot will contain a 3 stage filter,and then we will pass the recovered water through our little filter 4 times as we have been doing for a while now








and Stu its the 24th of may mate...you'll remember that won't you:gasp:
be lucky all you listeners
ha and 
bring it on
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Love the filter system! Very nice indeed.


----------



## s6t6nic6l

u might wanna get this for da room: :thumb:








arrow :whistling2:


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Love the filter system! Very nice indeed.


 cheers dude,got that nailed just right,just had a good old shower...at ruddy last no rain in ages here... am able to divert the initial flow to a bucket and then after rain for a little while to clean roof pipes etc,we can harvest,just need more rain now!!
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> u might wanna get this for da room: :thumb:
> image
> arrow :whistling2:


 yeah tis a great shout:2thumb:,ha, but i reckon i might get Shaz to knock up something,yeah without the arrow and with some sweeter little guys,we are not a huge fan of the artwork on this. Actually mate I'll lay a bet that you could come up with a funnier/cooler caption for a sign to hang on the door...what ya got?
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Some days you just wanna shout oh FFS very loudly and randomly,no i don't have terets...YET....LMAO but am working onit:2thumb:.so here's the rub got a very sick lady,had no sleep for 48,been waiting on another quack for 4 hrs,don't want to leave her side so guess I'll ramble to you lot.I guess a few that have stuck with this will have worked out a tend to not dwell on the b*ll*x that life chucks at us to much ,so in a fit of to hell with it last thursday i chanced our luck on a trip to dartfrog(chanced because my cars playing silly sods nearly couldn't go out for her meds this morn...ARRRGGH) .I had reserved some panama specials that marc brought back from holland(ha am tripping it was tuesday) and we also bought a pair of citrons,am loading pics so will show all later,all are feeding and bright and sparky,and safely esconced in ruddy Qt tubs.
Ha on the subject of which........
I hate putting our frogs in these tubs,ok we try our best to make it a cool gaff for them but its just not the same as a pupose built viv,This is something I am warming to though as we learn. You already have some idea how frustrating it is to buy some new frogs ie our other auratus and then not be able to see them for weeks because they are shy and in a viv full of hiding places,the reality is that if one was sick I wouldn't even know!! My primary reason for not putting frogs in the vivs straight away was one of caution over,the remote possibility of contaminating the viv and having to rip it all out and start over,this was driven home bigstyle by our little mystie male's behaviour change(ha he's cool by the way),the thought of doing those rocks again..OMG. 
Will finish this later
Stu


----------



## s6t6nic6l

soundstounite said:


> yeah tis a great shout:2thumb:,ha, but i reckon i might get Shaz to knock up something,yeah without the arrow and with some sweeter little guys,we are not a huge fan of the artwork on this. Actually mate I'll lay a bet that you could come up with a funnier/cooler caption for a sign to hang on the door...what ya got?
> Stu


guess who's got flu, waiting on viv bits and is bored :whistling2:









might help wiv sum ideas for ya :hmm:


----------



## soundstounite

But over the last few days,the other massive benefit of isolating new frogs (apart from disease management) has really been driven home. This is one of observation. It is just so easy to be sure your new guys are feeding,moving correctly,and even if they are shy and are feeding whilst you are not there,you can see that they have full bellies without causing to much stress to them,i am not enamoured with top opening tubs and can't wait 'till our frogs go in their real homes,but as you have guessed am rapidly being won over,to this.
ha one can see what a steep learning curve we are on,from the above,what has really confounded me is our new auratus,We love this species,but the shy rep is i guess what is keeping their numbers down in the uk,well these guys ,they are panama special/bronze whatever whilst not settled yet,all come out when we are about,as opposed to leg it,whether this is youngsters behaviour ,i don't know yet,but its so cool to watch them all nailing grub,we shall give them plenty,whilst growing, that metalic turquiose is to die for
















only early pics
and our much wanted citronella,hmmm no shyness here
















spiderfrog,spiderfrog,does whatever a spiderfrog does:whistling2:








Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

s6t6nic6l said:


> guess who's got flu, waiting on viv bits and is bored :whistling2:
> 
> image
> might help wiv sum ideas for ya :hmm:


Genius!:no1:

Stu, hope all is well with you and your lady!


----------



## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> guess who's got flu, waiting on viv bits and is bored :whistling2:
> 
> image
> might help wiv sum ideas for ya :hmm:


 Awsome,even better Shaz saw it.... first smile i've seen for 2 days......
THANKYOU ,ha knew you'ld come up with something ace,hope your well soon dude..'ere if your that clever when sick,what are you like when good:mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble:
sorry mate just gotta say thanks again
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Genius!:no1:
> 
> Stu, hope all is well with you and your lady!


 ha tis blummin great eh...you always say with one word what takes me loads:lol2:
Thanks mate,I'm knackered but fine mate, Shaz i'm desapately trying to keep out of Hos,she has been vomiting now aprox every hour for last 36,if i can just get time for the meds to work,I hope we can turn a corner,her normal meds screw her immune system so she is being ravaged by sommit,and of course she don't need more challenges from hos,thanks for your thoughts mate,she's sat beside drifting in and out,hard core
Stu


----------



## riksphibs

just being nosey what is it you use to stick the dirt to the back thanks


----------



## soundstounite

riksphibs said:


> just being nosey what is it you use to stick the dirt to the back thanks


 ha in another life i was just talking to you:welcome:,you be as nosey as you want mate:2thumb::2thumb:,buddy i go abit different to some(cause I'm wierd).We use expanding foam/polystyrene to build,this is then covered in rockoflex,and then epoxy resin into which the ecoearth/peatmix is "pushed" whilst the epoxy is wet,in our case the eco/peat is bone dry.,
As our vivs are recycled old glass, tipping them on their backs isn't an option,i also like the sculpturing bit so this method is what we favour,I don't think its better or worse than Ade's method just horses for courses,in ten years time one of us might be able to say one method lasts longer than the other does,ha but i haven't a clue which:lol2:
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

I reckon ALL methods have a place Stu, except maybe for cat litter mud. lol

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> I reckon ALL methods have a place Stu, except maybe for cat litter mud. lol
> 
> Ade


 ha agreed ...hmmm maybe the kitty litter needs to be mixed with your gorrilla glue mate:whip:


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> ha agreed ...hmmm maybe the kitty litter needs to be mixed with your gorrilla glue mate:whip:


Most cat litter is clay or gypsum, I believe, so it should be quite good for fake rock in dry vivs...:whistling2:


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

Ron Magpie said:


> Most cat litter is clay or gypsum, I believe, so it should be quite good for fake rock in dry vivs...:whistling2:


I used this in my leucs tank first and it looked good but when I went on holiday it couldn't get sprayed as much. It then dried up, cracked and started falling off. It did look like very good fake rock though.


----------



## Ron Magpie

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> I used this in my leucs tank first and it looked good but when I went on holiday it couldn't get sprayed as much. It then dried up, cracked and started falling off. It did look like very good fake rock though.


Interesting! I would have thunk it would be better dry- live and learn!


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Most cat litter is clay or gypsum, I believe, so it should be quite good for fake rock in dry vivs...:whistling2:


 :lol2::2thumb::2thumb:,ha seriously though,am sure some of the yanks make it work...but how?...I don't half read of a lot of guys that don't succeed,i think for the mo. we will stick with the, if it ain't broke don't fix it approach to backgrounds,ha lets hope i don't have to redo 20:mf_dribble::lol2:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> I used this in my leucs tank first and it looked good but when I went on holiday it couldn't get sprayed as much. It then dried up, cracked and started falling off. It did look like very good fake rock though.


 wow you get holidays,lmao...Matty I would love to see those pre colapse do you have any close ups? one of my close mates who tell me when somethings crap that i have done,couldn't tell the real from those fake pebbles a few days ago,from about 6 " ,they are so strange to handle they are cold to touch and yet one does that involitary arm movementupwards on picking them up,because they are so light,very strange,yup,am sold on the epoxy.
Our male auratus zoro has been calling every 2 mins all night,sounds like a kids rattle


----------



## mayock69

this is a great thread mate , great work :2thumb:


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

soundstounite said:


> wow you get holidays,lmao...Matty I would love to see those pre colapse do you have any close ups? one of my close mates who tell me when somethings crap that i have done,couldn't tell the real from those fake pebbles a few days ago,from about 6 " ,they are so strange to handle they are cold to touch and yet one does that involitary arm movementupwards on picking them up,because they are so light,very strange,yup,am sold on the epoxy.
> Our male auratus zoro has been calling every 2 mins all night,sounds like a kids rattle


Hey Stu, dont really have any close ups but I have this pic, it kinda shows it. This was when I first planted it up. Looks slightly different now.










Actually just found a closer up shot, and it has my tiny little Leuc in as well.


----------



## Wolfenrook

I've refused to try the kitty litter background method to be honest, instead I have sat and watched as those who have have ended up with a mess. For a while the yanks RAVED about them, but lately the craze seems to be fading away, with more and more folks saying they are too hit and miss. Clay substrates on the other hand, and backgrounds using a different clay source, seem to be doing quite well over there.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

mayock69 said:


> this is a great thread mate , great work :2thumb:


 cheers ahh man from a snake guy too,and i'm scared to say it,but i love your snake:lol2::2thumb:
thanks mate truely
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Hey Stu, dont really have any close ups but I have this pic, it kinda shows it. This was when I first planted it up. Looks slightly different now.
> 
> image
> 
> Actually just found a closer up shot, and it has my tiny little Leuc in as well.
> 
> image


 ha little guy is the bomb!! pic doesn't show alot of the rocks but what i can see does look cool,and Matty this rehashed is a very cool viv mate,credit where credits due,well done mate:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> I've refused to try the kitty litter background method to be honest, instead I have sat and watched as those who have have ended up with a mess. For a while the yanks RAVED about them, but lately the craze seems to be fading away, with more and more folks saying they are too hit and miss. Clay substrates on the other hand, and backgrounds using a different clay source, seem to be doing quite well over there.
> 
> Ade


 yeah I hear you mate,hit and miss is definitly not where we want to go!!
ahh but still have a nagging to investigate the clay subs. especially with where we live..on clay,and below a limestone escapement. As a guy that grows stuff and has for a long time now i guess,still not overly happy with any subs we have produced,although they are ok ...ok is DEFINATELY not what i am serching for! 
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Bud, try one similar to what I used in my Sisa conversion. I put down a base of composted bark from pollywog, then on top of this (no divider) I put my usual mix of fine orchid bark, ground xaxim, spahgnum peat, powdered calcium bentonite (about 10mls of this) clay, ground up live sphagnum moss and crunched up dried oak leaves. The growth I get with that mix is MAD! I use the same mix (usually without the composted bark) in most of my dart vivs. Oh and just as a guide, it's mostly fine orchid bark, then xaxim, then peat with the other bits been quite small quantities. Contrary to ABG mix which I believe is mostly xaxim and peat.

Oh and I definitely get better results with the peat as an additive rather than using something like Eco-Earth. Possibly because the plants prefer the acid pH this and the live sphagnum give the soil.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Bud, try one similar to what I used in my Sisa conversion. I put down a base of composted bark from pollywog, then on top of this (no divider) I put my usual mix of fine orchid bark, ground xaxim, spahgnum peat, powdered calcium bentonite (about 10mls of this) clay, ground up live sphagnum moss and crunched up dried oak leaves. The growth I get with that mix is MAD! I use the same mix (usually without the composted bark) in most of my dart vivs. Oh and just as a guide, it's mostly fine orchid bark, then xaxim, then peat with the other bits been quite small quantities. Contrary to ABG mix which I believe is mostly xaxim and peat.
> 
> Oh and I definitely get better results with the peat as an additive rather than using something like Eco-Earth. Possibly because the plants prefer the acid pH this and the live sphagnum give the soil.
> 
> Ade


yeah we also use peat i haven't got to the calcium betonite yet,but still get good results,although i tend to use more coarse orchid bark
alot of twigs and a leaf mix of oak hazel beech apple and clem armandii on the top,with whole oak leaves,i love the contrast in colours and shape,and to be fair growth is good,trop woods thrive,but i haven't cracked it with the springs yet,i must get a photo up of one of those 40 cubes that has been set up for .....dunno ten months,i use it as starters for my woodlouce cultures now its insane ,i have to feed every 2 days,thinking about it more like daily now,say 50 wood in a desert spoon,do you see many springs outdoing the frogs in your vivs?
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Get in,here's the citrons viv in place,smallest of the 3 first, still abit to do on the others,but not much,i hoped to have this all wrapped up today but what with the mare of the last few days,am frankly stoked that this is sorted...actually blummin overthe moon,:jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump:
oh and Ron, Shaz is mending i think... here we go then
in Da rack








lit properly with our DIY LED's








and avec le doors








and seen as no one likes our new frogs
I won't post all those other pics i took today for ya:Na_Na_Na_Na::Na_Na_Na_Na::Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2: well i might,cause we like looking at em...lmao...see I've got a right strop on now:mf_dribble:
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Moooooaaaarrr!!!!!!!!


----------



## Wolfenrook

Sorry Stu, I hadn't seen the pics yet. Made a point of looking now, gorgeous bud! Those citronellas look like my Lemmy without any back spot, nice.  I love auratus as well, but as you say the shy rep puts me off (even though given I keep ameerega bassieri sisa that wouldn't worry me.). I REALLY love el cope ones, but as you say the ones in DF at the moment are uber shy, to the point where when I was there on Thursday I couldn't even find them!! The green and blacks were right up front, but seriously could not find the el cope, and I even looked in the vivs at floor level!

Shish, I was already wavering away from putting pums in my new 40x40x60, those auratus pics are making me waver even more!

Oh and regarding the springs. I've found the best trick is during the seeding stage put springtail food (DF stuff) on the leaf litter in the viv. Few weeks of this and you have so many springs they are everywhere you look! The negative, well your frogs tend to end up uber well fed for a couple of weeks and give you dirty looks when you put flies in for them. lol

Me, I want to see more pics of your Auratus, Panama special and the camos you have. Love em.

Ade


----------



## manda88

I actually can't think of any other words to describe your tanks than f***ing awesome, I am literally in awe at how amazing it looks. One day I'm going to give you lots of money to recreate this in my house :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Moooooaaaarrr!!!!!!!!


 ha of course mate,honestly am so bloody chuffed that Shaz is mending and not throwing up every few minutes,and even better not in hos!! i thought it might be good for a laugh,which i am def up for,well even more than normal:2thumb:...bla bla 
Da specials...dis town,,is comming like a frog town
































































and another band
the Citronellas male was calling tonight,its going to be really cool when all these properly get going Mystie male(older was at it sat morn sunday eve auratus didn't stop,ha can't wait for it to kick off properly: victory
























and being spiderfrog again








and finally just 'cause the pic was there to be taken
Aero aka Luke flystalker doing his thang








Night all
belucky guys
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

:lol2: I refuse to talk to you after that specials remix


----------



## Ron Magpie

Stunning pics, Stu, and even better, the news that Shaz is on the mend!:2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Sorry Stu, I hadn't seen the pics yet. Made a point of looking now, gorgeous bud! Those citronellas look like my Lemmy without any back spot, nice.  I love auratus as well, but as you say the shy rep puts me off (even though given I keep ameerega bassieri sisa that wouldn't worry me.). I REALLY love el cope ones, but as you say the ones in DF at the moment are uber shy, to the point where when I was there on Thursday I couldn't even find them!! The green and blacks were right up front, but seriously could not find the el cope, and I even looked in the vivs at floor level!
> 
> Shish, I was already wavering away from putting pums in my new 40x40x60, those auratus pics are making me waver even more!
> 
> Oh and regarding the springs. I've found the best trick is during the seeding stage put springtail food (DF stuff) on the leaf litter in the viv. Few weeks of this and you have so many springs they are everywhere you look! The negative, well your frogs tend to end up uber well fed for a couple of weeks and give you dirty looks when you put flies in for them. lol
> 
> Me, I want to see more pics of your Auratus, Panama special and the camos you have. Love em.
> 
> Ade


 Actually mate i know why no one saw those pics it all is moving so fast,tis a shame 'cause alot of guys won't have caught StNics really cool sign and Nic at the time i didn't realise quite how flattering it was,cheers again mate(page 68 for all that missed).
Ade,the first biggy is our believed camo's aren't,they are actually blue on bronze or more specifically super blue,this maynot be a 100% true morph,but a line within a morph,i have really done my homework on this and was privalged enough to speak to Marc Pepper at understory,whom actually bred them,the problem with auratus as with so many frogs is actual collection data,is vitually non existant. What i will say is that they are stunning and vary in boldness from super shy to quite bold and we am thrilled they are here.
ha as far as those El cope mate,they were right next door to the green and blacks in one of them little viv,unreal is it not,and we totally share your love for them,ha the biggest boldest auratus...but not those,i guess we would both love the actual answer to that ,but can only hypothisise.
ha citrons mate having studied your pics agreed so similar i wonder if they are related,ours have a faint smudge where the spot is often found,as you have suggested mate they ARE,i think unsettled greatly by the move,but no fear of us.
Will check out your springs theory on these next 3 viv,you mean the collumbola stuff?
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

manda88 said:


> I actually can't think of any other words to describe your tanks than f***ing awesome, I am literally in awe at how amazing it looks. One day I'm going to give you lots of money to recreate this in my house :lol2:


Ah Manda,isn't it wonderful how a lass can swear at a guy and still make him feel good,ha Ive been getting that a lot lately:whistling2:,well actually the swearing but now my darling's nearly right she's back to making me feel good,ok with the occassional SLAP,which i probably earnt:lol2:
ha and i couldn't recreate this as you would want it tailored for you guys,but honestly you don't need me for that,your leucs viv tells me that, but the dollar would be nice:2thumb:
'Ere Shaz recons the citrons viv has an air of a mountain about it,tabletop S Africa me thinks,def seen this before
thankyou mate...er but you already have a boyfriend:lol2yeah i know but it was a classic and i've turned it round ...but i remember...and the fella that said that doesn't speak to me now,probably 'cause he thinks he's black and proud ,,,but i'll answer him anyway:whistling2: :lol2
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> :lol2: I refuse to talk to you after that specials remix


 Ahh man i'm totally at a loss,if you heard me singing it in a welsh accent,then you 'ld have been running to the shops to buy it,ha and you know thats true:whistling2::lol2:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Stunning pics, Stu, and even better, the news that Shaz is on the mend!:2thumb:


 cheers dude on both fronts,watching your nearest go through that is about as hard as it gets totally horrendous,ha but I won!! and she ain't in no hos,she's actually asleep so its a double win...no nagging...ahh I'm gonna pay for that:bash::whistling2:
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

soundstounite said:


> cheers dude on both fronts,watching your nearest go through that is about as hard as it gets totally horrendous,ha but I won!! and she ain't in no hos,she's actually asleep so its a double win...no nagging...ahh I'm gonna pay for that:bash::whistling2:
> Stu


Dont worry, Caz loves it when I sleep in the day :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

ha and despite everything,I've still got me head down still being a sneaky b:censor:d............... pum viv in place,this I have to be honest is probably my biggest cock up so far but i said from the beginning I'd shout it:the spring loaded, lonicera were a tad to springloaded and so pushed the front of the viv out of square which i saw but didn't CLOCK so had to use some jiggery pockery to fit said viv,but its in done and dusted,the worry will be long term stress but for the mo.SORTED (of course it had to be this as it was such a task to make)
so a tentative GET IN for this one:2thumb:








and a proper lighting shot








I haven't really had chance to look closely at the next couple of pics so don't know how much this will show,it refers to our couple of vivs that have been running for yonks with no frogs and the resident population of tropical woods which i actually thought we had killed by overheating in the G.H. just after planting,the white bits are woods and there are seriously a massive number ha we'll look at these together
















seeya
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Yup can definitely see though woodlice in there.  They like to make us think they've gone, then WHAM. lol I've taken to keeping a large bucket of ready made and ready seeded substrate in the back room, that way I end up with loads even before I need it. 

Result.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Yup can definitely see though woodlice in there.  They like to make us think they've gone, then WHAM. lol I've taken to keeping a large bucket of ready made and ready seeded substrate in the back room, that way I end up with loads even before I need it.
> 
> Result.
> 
> Ade


 the furthur we go and the longer we do this mate,the more i think the large culture rocks,for us the big ol Ff sweetjar does the do,larger springtail cultures do better(esp compo binsfor temperate),ha and was thinking on the lager woods earlier today,am working on an almost totally edible substrate for em ,got a nice little supply of rotten plum wood as a base to replace the orchid,oh and theres more back there for ya mate don't know whether you clocked it I've been on one again
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Got a compost bin out the back, and 3 more at the allotment bud, PACKED with temperate springtails and woodlice (the one out back that is).

I don't do the huge ff cultures, but gett there bud. Having to have 4 cultures of melos and 2 of hydei on the go at any one time just to feed all my frogs is a bit mad. lol Definitely agree that larger springtail cultures usually do better, I've also found they do better if they aren't in an airtight container.

It's not all roses here though. Tried using Titebond 3 to do a background, discovered it takes about 2 days to actually cure enough to stand the viv up again the hard way. Back to gorilla glue I go. lol

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Got a compost bin out the back, and 3 more at the allotment bud, PACKED with temperate springtails and woodlice (the one out back that is).
> 
> I don't do the huge ff cultures, but gett there bud. Having to have 4 cultures of melos and 2 of hydei on the go at any one time just to feed all my frogs is a bit mad. lol Definitely agree that larger springtail cultures usually do better, I've also found they do better if they aren't in an airtight container.
> 
> It's not all roses here though. Tried using Titebond 3 to do a background, discovered it takes about 2 days to actually cure enough to stand the viv up again the hard way. Back to gorilla glue I go. lol
> 
> Ade


We live in a farmworkers cottage,one of them long ol' narrow gardens we have lots of bins an the go to cater for all the garden plus household waste as we do this recyclin thing too,spring numbers are currently down a bit maybe i'm spreading our waste to thin,still getting the hang of the monster culture,we don't vent the springs at the mo though(indoor tropical) and am slowly moving over to charcoal for these as our results are a bit hit and miss,although the first lot we have going seem to be good/realy good,i'll have an experiment a bit later on to see what results we get with vented cultures mate.
Bummer i clocked your titebond escapade shame it didn't work, worth a try though: victory:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ha nearly there with this round of viv building, the last is in,but i had a screw just a bit proud,begrudginly i got the drill and counter sink out,ha and as drilling commenced,mystie male the older started calling,yeah the noise was a bit similar,i wonder if he thought it was a competitor.
Gotta wait to fit the doors as the silicone bead is still drying,but its in and done and dusted,ha once again softly softly triumphs:lol2:,but ahh man tis worrying moving these larger vivs 








and now you might really see that bit of wood,hopefully the moss will comeback to life once it gets wet,well i am pretty sure it will








So am a happy bunny,I guess its back to the beginning then....OMG:lol2: but just the best to do now,planting,ahh thats where all the graft really comes together,hopefully sorting these 3 will give a bit of space and so i can get back to propergating them plants,gonna need a few more yet i reckons
Stu


----------



## Veyla

Wow, its taken me all day but I have finally got to the end of this thread!: victory: What an amazing room and such gorgeous tanks and froggies. I have found out more in this one thread than all the weeks of trawling through da net. Eventually we want to have darts but we have been worried about making the habitats natural looking but with your step by step it really has given me the confidence to give it a go. Thank you so much for posting your experiences because without people like you many of us would be still scratching our heads:notworthy:.

One question and I know its on here but cant face trying to go back through all the pages lol, about your little pots for the planting, can you go through the process again as how you do them and the finish you put on them?? I am just thinking I might have a go in my gecko tank (if it EVER arrives seeing as three have been smashed in transit!):blush: I would be very grateful if you would explain it again:flrt::flrt::flrt:
Thanks
Michelle


----------



## Wolfenrook

Sorry to off topic your thread Stu, but Michelle regarding your gecko tank. Try asking the shipper to put it on a pallet, the couriers can't carry them on their own that way, and so don't throw them around like they do when they're just in a box. Ok costs a bit more to send, but is a LOT cheaper than an entire viv down the pan as couriers wont insure glass. Always done the trick for me.

Ade


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Wolfenrook said:


> Sorry to off topic your thread Stu, but Michelle regarding your gecko tank. Try asking the shipper to put it on a pallet, the couriers can't carry them on their own that way, and so don't throw them around like they do when they're just in a box. Ok costs a bit more to send, but is a LOT cheaper than an entire viv down the pan as couriers wont insure glass. Always done the trick for me.
> 
> Ade


Definitely.

Some places do ship on pallets, my exo was.


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Sorry to off topic your thread Stu, but Michelle regarding your gecko tank. Try asking the shipper to put it on a pallet, the couriers can't carry them on their own that way, and so don't throw them around like they do when they're just in a box. Ok costs a bit more to send, but is a LOT cheaper than an entire viv down the pan as couriers wont insure glass. Always done the trick for me.
> 
> Ade


 Nah don't you apologise to me, old mate, you go as off topical as you want mate,especially when helping someone,fair play mate,wouldn't have it any other way,plus I couldn't have helped Michelle with that:notworthy: My vivs always come in bits:blush:.
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Veyla said:


> Wow, its taken me all day but I have finally got to the end of this thread!: victory: What an amazing room and such gorgeous tanks and froggies. I have found out more in this one thread than all the weeks of trawling through da net. Eventually we want to have darts but we have been worried about making the habitats natural looking but with your step by step it really has given me the confidence to give it a go. Thank you so much for posting your experiences because without people like you many of us would be still scratching our heads:notworthy:.
> 
> One question and I know its on here but cant face trying to go back through all the pages lol, about your little pots for the planting, can you go through the process again as how you do them and the finish you put on them?? I am just thinking I might have a go in my gecko tank (if it EVER arrives seeing as three have been smashed in transit!):blush: I would be very grateful if you would explain it again:flrt::flrt::flrt:
> Thanks
> Michelle


Ahhh cheers mate,ha and don't worry we're still scratching our heads,will be for a while yet i guess.
Michelle sorry its so big and unruly,if i could find time i would put some kind of index up,here a quick run through of the pots ,without pics as i can't access them ...more comming
First,wear safety glasses and gloves(disposable are ideal).
1get an old bit of glass: foam doesn't stick well to glass
2spray glass with a mist of water(most of the foam we use hardens via moisture).
3 Apply a bit of foamjust about the same size as your intended pot,or a gnats bigger 
4 sit the pot into this foam push the base of the pot into the foam slightly more than the top,so when its vertical, the pot leans out slightly.
5cover the pot in foam,but NOT the BASE,(for drainage reasons),if you make the foam overlap the base but still leave the holes clear then the pot will not be visable,same at the top.Now if you get it right around 5 mins after you have applied the foam you can mold it as a skin starts to form,wear those glove mate.
6spray with water again
7 I just got a DEJAVU moment:lol2:
8let foam cure PROPERLY!!!!! do not expose it to direct sunlight uvb recks da foam.
9cover foam,we use rockoflex,first ,leave this to cure for a couple of days
10 Apply your final coat of epoxy(with pigment)and whist this is still wet apply a substrate mix,we use ecoearth/peat mixed together which is BONE DRY so sort this sometime before you start.
11 leave to cure
Michelle 9 10 11 are really down to you,Many guys here use other methods silicone is perhaps the most popular,have a chat to them they are good folks as you have already seen tonight,we all help each other...very cool. Sorry this old thread is so long ,but its a big old thing we are messing with and the learning curve is a big one.
And as i have said to a few guys now if you are really thinking about darts,seriously,buy some tropical woodlice tomorrow,they are so slow!!! and then get the culturing of flies sorted out,
be lucky mate glad you enjoyed
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

soundstounite said:


> Nah don't you apologise to me, old mate, you go as off topical as you want mate,especially when helping someone,fair play mate,wouldn't have it any other way,plus I couldn't have helped Michelle with that:notworthy: My vivs always come in bits:blush:.
> Stu


Yeah, I had a Komodo one arrive in pieces. The one before that was a big (60x45x60) Exo though so came on a pallet anyway, in one piece. When I reported the smashed Komodo (same company) they let me upgrade to a ZooMed FOC, and shipped it on a pallet. I actually watched the courier smash the Komodo, walloped it into the gate posts, then the front door frame. The ZooMed he had to get me to help him with it as it was too big and heavy, which meant I could control how it was treated.

They are WAY more careful with palletised loads.

Back on topic Stu, your vivs are among the minority using foam that I have seen that actually looked good. :2thumb:

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

My god i make her a frog room,i build her all the vivs,i grow her all the plants,she say where she wants em and duely i plant em(ok with discussion,i turn me back and SHE SITS ON one of me GLASS DOORS....and it didn't BREAK,yeah and for around five minutes too...oh lord give me strength:bash::bash::bash::bash::whip::whip::whip::flrt::flrt::flrt:but she's poorly:whistling2:
Early shots of the planting,the bones are in i guess,ha and a stonking culture of woods too,so many infact that one did all 3 vivs...GET IN
Pum








auratus








Citronella








seeya
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Leaf litter FTW! 

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Leaf litter FTW!
> 
> Ade


 me's fik...FTW??


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

Stu, they look awesome as always. And I think FTW means for the win:2thumb:


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Come on get with the internet lingo or GTFO :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Come on get with the internet lingo or GTFO :lol2:


 Can't...too old......lmao oh FFS you really love me don't you:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2::lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Stu, they look awesome as always. And I think FTW means for the win:2thumb:


 cheers dude lets hope dem froggies like it.
and FTR:2thumb::bash: the top layer of wholeleaves conceals podens finest crushed Gunzlehurst cobnut and Jupiter apple leaves around an inch deep although TBF:whip: we didn't make quite enough so am gonna top it up later...Matty do ya think that will make Moaning Morgan Mindy smile:flrt::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:
Stu
ps I'm a bad person i am sorry...no really i am...no honestly...ok then be like that(thats the great thing about not having any friends i can cope with talking to myself:gasp


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

soundstounite said:


> cheers dude lets hope dem froggies like it.
> and FTR:2thumb::bash: the top layer of wholeleaves conceals podens finest crushed Gunzlehurst cobnut and Jupiter apple leaves around an inch deep although TBF:whip: we didn't make quite enough so am gonna top it up later...Matty do ya think that will make Moaning Morgan Mindy smile:flrt::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:
> Stu
> ps I'm a bad person i am sorry...no really i am...no honestly...ok then be like that(thats the great thing about not having any friends i can cope with talking to myself:gasp


Thats is excellent, internet lingo right there. He will be very pleased. I will tell him off tomorrow for you when I see him:lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Thats is excellent, internet lingo right there. He will be very pleased. I will tell him off tomorrow for you when I see him:lol2:


 Ahhh man,you have to see him.:crazy:mg::jump::rant2::beer8::blahblah::surrender:.........TOMORROW,owwwwww mate thats awfull...wear some sunglasses he might not recognise you:lol2: oh and take some paracetamol for the drive home,ha only joking morg we luv ya really,i better get back to sorting out some more woodlice cultures hadn't I. :lol2:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Springtails,....
have been having a right old think today about these. ok we produce enough but results are a bit to sporadic for my liking,so after an initial experiment and resounding success am slowly but surely switching the whole lot over to charcoal,in larger containers,basically cracker boxs or similar.I have known for a while about the need to split them and that they have a top out point for numbers, but the penny hadn't really dropped until last night when reading about wood lice. Springs actually secrete something that prevents numbers getting to high where as woods just keep going. So it suddenly dawned on me why with the vivs that have been running for yonks why they contain zillions of woods but the springs peak with massive numbers and then over time die out. I always put this down to the wrong subs.
But I have a little theory now,i will only seed vivs with woods,and litterally dump a shed load of springs in just before the frogs,that way springtail numbers will be held in check by predation and hopefully the top out point will not be reached,this backs up all that i have whitnessed over the last year or so of culturing them,and with whats happening in our vivs,i can stuff tonnes of springs in a viv but although the frogs eat a vast quantity i can not seem to get a resident population going...maybe because the subs are knackered by said secretion,what do you think?
forsure frog predation of springs plays a part in this but with a decent substrate some should survive and this is not happening with vivs set up for a while,coupled with, we have used varaitions of substrate,ok based on a theme, which would act as a control (and i can culture springs in these subs no probs).
And for the first time today since we got our superblue auratus we had 2 out feeding,the third is alive and fat,but so so shy,we never see it .Such a contrast between these and the specials,was crawling around on the floor today checking our little fast wood cultures,3 of which live under the mystie viv,not far away the specials are in QT,ha and as i do that stockmans banter always talking when with the animals (yeah i know even the woods:gasp::lol2 one little auratus came out to see me hopped right up to the side of the tub about 6" away from my head and said feed me bitch:mf_dribble:,ahh man you'ld never believe it was the same species
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

To be honest, I don't worry about long term springtail populations. The frogs make very short work of them once they are added, usually just end up with a small self sustaining population. However I do find that with small frogs they seem to really enjoy that mighty 3 day feast they have when you plonk them in with 1000s of springtails. :lol2:

All that said, you may have noticed I use quite a deep soil layer. A left over from my planted tank habits.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> To be honest, I don't worry about long term springtail populations. The frogs make very short work of them once they are added, usually just end up with a small self sustaining population. However I do find that with small frogs they seem to really enjoy that mighty 3 day feast they have when you plonk them in with 1000s of springtails. :lol2:
> 
> All that said, you may have noticed I use quite a deep soil layer. A left over from my planted tank habits.
> 
> Ade


its that small self sustaining pop.that i'm not getting mate tonnes to zilch, as you say deeper subs may well be it but again some of ours are quite deep and i don't get a result here either,but its worth airing these things to see what comes back,input much appreciated mate. ha shaz has just runoff to see if its another male other than happy,shouting his head off,i know we have 2 and think i know how he is ,but confirmation would be cool.
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> its that small self sustaining pop.that i'm not getting mate tonnes to zilch, as you say deeper subs may well be it but again some of ours are quite deep and i don't get a result here either,but its worth airing these things to see what comes back,input much appreciated mate. ha shaz has just runoff to see if its another male other than happy,shouting his head off,i know we have 2 and think i know how he is ,but confirmation would be cool.
> Stu


As I said to Hong Kong Stewie at some point, you may have more than you think; They are too small for practically anything I have to eat, but they disappear from sight pretty quickly in soil/planted tanks. Plonk a handfull of substrate in a bowl of water though, and you'll see how many there really are.


----------



## Wolfenrook

Ron Magpie said:


> As I said to Hong Kong Stewie at some point, you may have more than you think; They are too small for practically anything I have to eat, but they disappear from sight pretty quickly in soil/planted tanks. Plonk a handfull of substrate in a bowl of water though, and you'll see how many there really are.


Definitely. End of the day if you think about it, any springtails that WE can see are lunch, it's the ones you DON'T see that survive. 

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> As I said to Hong Kong Stewie at some point, you may have more than you think; They are too small for practically anything I have to eat, but they disappear from sight pretty quickly in soil/planted tanks. Plonk a handfull of substrate in a bowl of water though, and you'll see how many there really are.


 absolutly fair comment Ron,and i see this dissappearance daily, in all our cultures,one minute they are rammed the next ,the buggers are gone,and see your water point to mate,actually this behaviour is part of how i measure springs in a viv,as with these ent vivs they collect in the trough,ha mate you may remember being a silly sod,talking about them doing synchronised dancing :2thumb::lol2:.Seriously i think there is more going on here,and this exactly replicates what happens in our cultures,ha both with the woods and the springs. 
if i leave a springtail culture get too big,or don't split it early enough,it crashes,and i have explored this furthur by chucking anothe big lot in...they pretty much die. woods just keep going getting larger and larger. with those 40 cubes as a frogless control,exactly the same thing happens,
Ive still got a hell of a long way to go and those 3 just finished vivs seeded only with woods,and the springs just before the frogs might make the matter clearer.If what i think is happening is right then they will maintain a visable population,granted small because of fat froggies munching them,interesting init,what one gets to experiment with,when doing something as mad as what we are. In that last sentance is the clue:lol2:i am already mad so this might just be part of that...hmm but....
Ere mate,as you know we have a little noisey Luec called Happy,today i was a gnats away from hand feeding him:2thumb: though try keeping a springtail on you finger lmao,ahh man he's so cool...er and fat.We are just starting to back off the feeding on them now,as I guess they must be fully grown,its difficult not having a yardstick,i don't think we have seen full grown leucs for a year now,or actually many other darts so its difficult to know when to slow up,just a matter of observation now,of course i have measurements in books but that doesn't tell one much,as individuals vary so much in size!
cheers for the thoughts mate,always cool having all those years of keeping chucked at me
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Stu, a question I should have asked before as it's SO obvious. Just how long do you leave the vivs after seeding springtails before adding the frogs? I leave mine 1 month usually, 2 has been the max, and not once seen the die of you describe. You really shouldn't be seeing it in a viv unless you are leaving them for months and months. You ARE feeding the springs in the vivs in between seeding them and adding the frogs aren't you? Not relying on natural foods that occur? As the biggest drop offs I have seen have been if I don't keep them topped up with nosh.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Definitely. End of the day if you think about it, any springtails that WE can see are lunch, it's the ones you DON'T see that survive.
> 
> Ade


 Yup i hear you mate,as above we'll see,lol i just gotta be patient and wait,till the frogs go in those vivs,which will be on different timescales,so if they all behave the same then i'll go this way,but as with Ron i don't doubt what your saying and i have scrubbled about in the cubes but found zilch,even had them in a propergator at one stage again,i see none now when tipping out plants but it was crawling at one stage .
cheers for the thoughts guys
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Stu, a question I should have asked before as it's SO obvious. Just how long do you leave the vivs after seeding springtails before adding the frogs? I leave mine 1 month usually, 2 has been the max, and not once seen the die of you describe. You really shouldn't be seeing it in a viv unless you are leaving them for months and months. You ARE feeding the springs in the vivs in between seeding them and adding the frogs aren't you? Not relying on natural foods that occur? As the biggest drop offs I have seen have been if I don't keep them topped up with nosh.
> 
> Ade


 yeah it varies some are around 2 months some are longer (longest 10 months,er i think),yep am feeding,with some of the earliest it has to be daily now to keep them starving hordes of woods going,its a great shout Ade,(mate sorry i didn't spot this earlier), but no springs,lots of woods,which has lead me to the above, conclusion. This is especially important for us as we tend to say we will have this frog,we will build its viv,but have no idea when or where we will get them..
thank again mate
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

So just as i was moaning that we couldn't go to frog day the above guys did this,I don't think they will be fertile but i really don't care,we have a pair at least,our lad has been seen about the canaster so he might just be onit,hmmm these might even be the first of this morph laid on english soil... bloody chuffed, haven't even really thought in depth about this side yet ,just my usual randomness,have ideas though.
So weird in a way this,it must be nearly 2 years exactly that we started this,this get a massive BRING IT ON on EH?:jump::jump::jump::jump::cheers::cheers::cheers: Super blue auratus in da HOUSE:lol2:
Stu


----------



## Gaz1987

:flrt:


----------



## soundstounite

Gaz1987 said:


> :flrt:


 :whistling2::notworthy::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


----------



## sambridge15

congrats :2thumb:


----------



## Veyla

Yay congrats:flrt:


----------



## MARK.D

Nice one Stu. Congrats mate. :no1:


----------



## ilovetoads2

That is great and they are lovely...will take some off you if you get them to froglets. :2thumb:


----------



## richie.b

Nice one Stu and of course Shaz, nothing like the feeling of getting your first eggs. Youll have everything breeding before you know it :2thumb:

i still think you should come to frogday though :whistling2:


----------



## Ron Magpie

:2thumb::no1::2thumb::no1::2thumb::no1::2thumb::no1::2thumb:


Says it all, I think.


----------



## soundstounite

sambridge15 said:


> congrats :2thumb:


 cheers Sam,its unbelievably exciting and proper scarey too,i was not expecting this YET,ere and there is better to come but i'll tell more when I've finished me thankyous:lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Veyla said:


> Yay congrats:flrt:


thanks Mechelle


----------



## soundstounite

MARK.D said:


> Nice one Stu. Congrats mate. :no1:


 thankyou Mark,any advice would be real cool,ah mate its taken along ol' time to get to this and i'm STILL not prepared:lol2:
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Bloody hell! Nice going.

And you are prepared, you just doubt yourself too much.


----------



## soundstounite

ilovetoads2 said:


> That is great and they are lovely...will take some off you if you get them to froglets. :2thumb:


 Hey Mariette thanks kiddo (good to hear fron ya mate:2thumb,ha thats the biggy ,but i guess we'll have more than one shot to prefect this,of course i'll put you down for some,if we can do the do.
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Nice one Stu and of course Shaz, nothing like the feeling of getting your first eggs. Youll have everything breeding before you know it :2thumb:
> 
> i still think you should come to frogday though :whistling2:


yes mate as you saw from my post ,utterly fantastic,especially after all the graft,and if we don't get em all breeding it won't be for lack of trying.
Mate we just cannot go,our mate Gaz was gonna take us but we can't even manage that..SOB...buddy i so so so want us to be there to meet you all,gutted does not say it, but i have to be positive and not be a miseryguts,and mate have a fantastic day,hope you do really well: victory:
Ha now you old fox tell me what the hell to do next:whip::whip::lol2:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> :2thumb::no1::2thumb::no1::2thumb::no1::2thumb::no1::2thumb:
> 
> 
> Says it all, I think.


 Ron thanks dude,and also for your constant support,great advice,and making me laugh:2thumb:,and there is better.....


----------



## soundstounite

Well guys,i have been in from work for a few mins now,our auratus are 100% good,just found another 2 clutches maybe we have 2 girls,one looks blank can't see no little black grey dots,but lots of bits of substrate,but the other has 5 tads in,with movement,so its game on,we are both going oh crap a bit as its come as a shock and you know us we like to be ahead of the game not playing catch up.Any and all advice would be fantastic what ya got :notworthy:
For everyone going to Manchester have a wonderful time,and try not to spend too much eh:lol2: safe journeys as well wish we could come but can't,nuff said....:censor::censor:
BRING IT ON EH?
Stu


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> yes mate as you saw from my post ,utterly fantastic,especially after all the graft,and if we don't get em all breeding it won't be for lack of trying.
> Mate we just cannot go,our mate Gaz was gonna take us but we can't even manage that..SOB...buddy i so so so want us to be there to meet you all,gutted does not say it, but i have to be positive and not be a miseryguts,and mate have a fantastic day,hope you do really well: victory:
> Ha now you old fox tell me what the hell to do next:whip::whip::lol2:
> Stu


 Thats a shame you cant go buddy its going to be good, and thanks Stu but ive already done really well, mind you ive also spent a fortune again on frogs and i havent even got there yet :whistling2:
As for the auratus, do yourself a favour and make an aqaurium doesnt have to be tall just tall enough to hold a about 6" of water, then get some sheets of polystyrene and cut it to fit in the aquarium then get some plastic cups ( i used old waxmoth tubs) put tiny holes in the bottom of them then in the polystyrene cut holes for the cups to fit in but not fall through. Fill the tank with water add a heater and small filter float the polystyrene and cups in the aquarium and this is then your tadpole rearing tank. heater keeps the water at the right temp and filter keeps the water cleaner i even added alodia to the water in mine for added freshness. Or you could just have lots of cups all over the place that need water changes everyday. Remove the eggs from the viv and put them in a petri dish until they hatch when wriggling add a bit of water until theyre swimming then put them in the cups. Hope this helps buddy
of course this is how i do it other people might do it different

cheers
Richie


----------



## phelsumaman

soundstounite said:


> image
> image
> So just as i was moaning that we couldn't go to frog day the above guys did this,I don't think they will be fertile but i really don't care,we have a pair at least,our lad has been seen about the canaster so he might just be onit,hmmm these might even be the first of this morph laid on english soil... bloody chuffed, haven't even really thought in depth about this side yet ,just my usual randomness,have ideas though.
> So weird in a way this,it must be nearly 2 years exactly that we started this,this get a massive BRING IT ON on EH?:jump::jump::jump::jump::cheers::cheers::cheers: Super blue auratus in da HOUSE:lol2:
> 
> 
> Stu


 
Well done Stu, wont be long before you are over run with the little buggers, Im sure there are plenty of people on here who will be anxious to help you lighten the load

oh by the way :no1: you deserve it :notworthy:


----------



## Wolfenrook

Agree with Richie, real shame you can't get to frog day, would have been cool to have met you in person, talked you into boredom and left you wishing you were somewhere else. 

Grats on the spawning though, you've certainly put the effort in.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Thats a shame you cant go buddy its going to be good, and thanks Stu but ive already done really well, mind you ive also spent a fortune again on frogs and i havent even got there yet :whistling2:
> As for the auratus, do yourself a favour and make an aqaurium doesnt have to be tall just tall enough to hold a about 6" of water, then get some sheets of polystyrene and cut it to fit in the aquarium then get some plastic cups ( i used old waxmoth tubs) put tiny holes in the bottom of them then in the polystyrene cut holes for the cups to fit in but not fall through. Fill the tank with water add a heater and small filter float the polystyrene and cups in the aquarium and this is then your tadpole rearing tank. heater keeps the water at the right temp and filter keeps the water cleaner i even added alodia to the water in mine for added freshness. Or you could just have lots of cups all over the place that need water changes everyday. Remove the eggs from the viv and put them in a petri dish until they hatch when wriggling add a bit of water until theyre swimming then put them in the cups. Hope this helps buddy
> of course this is how i do it other people might do it different
> 
> cheers
> Richie


Very greatful,Richie, I understand exactly what you mean,frog nick does very similar i remember him showing us all,very cool idea. I might not have time to set this up,for these as i''ve been caught er a bit on the hop:blush:...doh...but will get cracking on something soon as,this has got to have some form of automation,we don't really want to go mass single cups. great stuff mate thankyou!!!
have a good un mate,
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

You have the skills Stu, put your own shallow tank together, drill the bottom to fit a bulkhead, and slap an external on there. Pop some purigen in the external and that will take care of any hormones the tadpoles might release (read a lot about hormones limiting growth etc, hence a lot of folks using single cups). I reckon the normal drain sets you can get should fit the tubing on a normal external filter, also gives you a really easy way to do a water exchange.

I've actually seen one of the ENT tadpole rearing systems in the flesh. It was just a couple of draws with glass compartments in each draw, and a drained bottom bit. Nothing that special really. I am guessing the idea there was you overflow the cups at water changes, and the water just drains off.

Oh and Richie, try adding some Marimo balls into your tank. They grow in even the lowest light, and devour nutrients (like nitrates etc) like you wouldn't believe. A lot of planted tank keepers use them to keep nuisance algae down, it's a species of algae itself but usually stays neatly in a ball.  I'll see if I can spare you a couple to try if you like? None of my aquariums have EVER contained frogs of any type, so they're safe.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

phelsumaman said:


> Well done Stu, wont be long before you are over run with the little buggers, Im sure there are plenty of people on here who will be anxious to help you lighten the load
> 
> oh by the way :no1: you deserve it :notworthy:


 Thanks Ben,it might take us a while to get this side wired,but it will happen,and yeah it would be great to see more of the auratus morphs here and spread about....wicked init,Shaz says the mystie fella is calling almost constantly while i am out at work,he has really upped his game,we might well have more to deal with i guess,long way to go yet mate ,and alot of ideas to sort and try to impliment. 
so blummin chuffed Ben,its not only a big deal with this species in so far as they are difficult to sex,but it also means that they like it here and are happy :massive to actually know that we are doing right by them,
bring it on
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> You have the skills Stu, put your own shallow tank together, drill the bottom to fit a bulkhead, and slap an external on there. Pop some purigen in the external and that will take care of any hormones the tadpoles might release (read a lot about hormones limiting growth etc, hence a lot of folks using single cups). I reckon the normal drain sets you can get should fit the tubing on a normal external filter, also gives you a really easy way to do a water exchange.
> 
> I've actually seen one of the ENT tadpole rearing systems in the flesh. It was just a couple of draws with glass compartments in each draw, and a drained bottom bit. Nothing that special really. I am guessing the idea there was you overflow the cups at water changes, and the water just drains off.
> 
> Oh and Richie, try adding some Marimo balls into your tank. They grow in even the lowest light, and devour nutrients (like nitrates etc) like you wouldn't believe. A lot of planted tank keepers use them to keep nuisance algae down, it's a species of algae itself but usually stays neatly in a ball.  I'll see if I can spare you a couple to try if you like? None of my aquariums have EVER contained frogs of any type, so they're safe.
> 
> Ade


hey mate thanks for the first reply kiddo,would have been great to talk without this ruddy machine betwixt us,ha it might be me boring you:lol2: have a fantastic day mate,and i so wish we could support this,Fair play to Musty:notworthy::notworthy:
Some great little tips there mate in the second post,i have also seen the ent tad rearing set up at Marc's i would actually like to design something along those lines into the rack eventually, draws an all, if this goes how i want i will really have to max the space, available,but there are many avenues to explore here,as with Ron to both of you thanks for the constant support and great ideas,ha and the crack,ha and that Mr Freeman too,cheers guys ,i better get doing,Berks Mike has sent us down a cracking little culture of Orange woods so have that to sort too,ha don't know me head from me *** at the mo.
thankyou 
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Had a cool afternoon after work with the frogs today,got the mysties,or more likely us, stressed again by moving them to there permanant residence with our little guy aero,he went storming over to the first one he caught sight of,and chased it into a film canaster(we thought it would be the other way round but he then got to thinking about more grub,so no dramas.He has continued making friend for the rest of the day,blummin lovely to see him with company though.
Also after much reading,and kind advice, have pulled the eggs from the auratus,many as we don't have adequate deposition sites,am hoping they'll be alright at the rooms usual temps.just before lights out the 5 tads were still moving








I'll try and get a snap of the others each day as far as we get with them anyway,they were laid thursday,9th june,for sure a couple are no good,we'll see how it goes with the rest,we have knocked up some tad tea with some oakleaves,hopefully this will start being used tomorrow,our hope is this will help knock any moulds on the head,so we won't have to separate the good and bad eggs.All this is very much seat of the pants stuff here's a pic of the container they are in...3 wisky glasses,sat in water,my hope is that the thick glass bottom will help cushion temperature changes,the water will help keep humidity up and the eggs are just sat in water,but NOT covered








and the second or rather 3rd clutch laid on thursday








i an unable to see if you can actually see the duff eggs
seeya
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

I'm just really chuffed that all the hard work you put in is paying off so soon after you got them- as I've said before, it goes to show what hard work and thorough preparation can achieve- hats off to you, mate!:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:




(That's if I wore a hat- which I don't. But I would take it off if I did.)


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I'm just really chuffed that all the hard work you put in is paying off so soon after you got them- as I've said before, it goes to show what hard work and thorough preparation can achieve- hats off to you, mate!:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (That's if I wore a hat- which I don't. But I would take it off if I did.)


 Ta mate ha you made us laugh,well gotta say its a bit of a shock so quick,i have a gut feeling that more is on the cards Ron. We have 2 leucs scrapping and calling like mad,hope this doesn't go to far though! The mystie male new to his viv is shouting his head off too.,we took all their cans out of the QT tub when we moved them,he went right up top today found a sutible one and started shouting,unfortunately the female tried to get to him,but was too fat,and fell of the cliff,properly funny,he didn't stop calling while i had his light off either(messing with bulbs),got a shot of him later on though just before food.
Mate i might have been prepared up till now but have been caught by this,am tryng to remember childhood stuff and running,around like a headless chicken, madly imputting. The second clutch bad eggs appear to have taken more with them so have taken the drastic step of splitting them up,that was hairy:gasp:. you'll see from the pics that we have a hatched tad,the pic is onits side,but within a couple of hours its moved away from the clutch,and righted maybe another3 will make it but i suspect no 5 is no more. The odds are stacked against them,first eggs from young stock plus our huge inexperiance,not to mention not set up how we want to be for this. But all said and done we will give it everything we have to rear them,won't be for lack of trying thats for sure,just need to get this side wired now,jees mate i started doing frogy stuff at 9 and finished at 10 tonight,maybe later,mad day.Second to last job was hunting down lots of native woods for a culture want to try breeding lots of babies for frog grub,ha and every frog got wild grub today too,better do that pics thing and stop wafflin' eh?
Domino shouting








aero has settled well with the others no agy bargy at all he just seems to be chuffed that they are finally with him
a shot of him being stretched,so funny to watch,why didn't the silly sod just jump?








the eggs from the last clutch,unfortunately methinks sommits not right








and the first tad from clutch 2 leaving the eggmass,as above now righted and looking at me....super cool...good luck little mate:2thumb:








thats all folks
seeya Stu


----------



## soundstounite

not much to tell but some beginners lessons learnt,duff eggs get em out quick,we left one possible that we were pretty convinced was duff,I am pretty sure it has spoiled the rest of the clutch,3 got a line on top,after work today all have gone grey,so i think they are written off! out of the 5 there is still only "little mate" hatched,i am going to give them one more day and will split tomorrow,but it looks very much like we will be down to one tad from 3 clutches,which is still cool ,we have another clutch (well am pretty sure its right at the back) Shaz clocked the unseen one along with Zorro in there this am,so now she's been caught twice out and eggs have appeared,i reckon she's been rumbled.
Now although i am a bit gutted to see this mortality so high,its apparently expected with young frogs and their first clutches,hell i didn't even think they would be fertile so soon, but it looks like we will get a few shots at this, i will pull this clutch tomorrow and start over on the pic recording,to see if we can get a record up from dot to hatch.
Am already musing over when to leave alone and pop some glass jars in the viv,at some stage i really want him to get to carry his tads,he deserves that.
Any auratus breeders watching as always chuck what ya got at me:whip:
Stu


----------



## Nix

Hi Stu,

just thought I would drop in with a hi, I haven't posted since about page 35 ish so just had a marathon read of the rest of the thread. WOW. You and Shaz have come a long way. From newbies to master builders and now your first tads. Incredibly impressive!

I think I am in love with mysties having read this thread. Plus I have an empty 45 exo terra cube at home begging to be modified. Uh oh! 

As always keep up the good work mate, things are looking amazing.
All the best to Shaz too, I hope she is doing ok.

Nix


----------



## soundstounite

Nix said:


> Hi Stu,
> 
> just thought I would drop in with a hi, I haven't posted since about page 35 ish so just had a marathon read of the rest of the thread. WOW. You and Shaz have come a long way. From newbies to master builders and now your first tads. Incredibly impressive!
> 
> I think I am in love with mysties having read this thread. Plus I have an empty 45 exo terra cube at home begging to be modified. Uh oh!
> 
> As always keep up the good work mate, things are looking amazing.
> All the best to Shaz too, I hope she is doing ok.
> 
> Nix


hey mate,'ere you got started on that rack? The mysties are to die for Nix,and they seem pretty settled now,Aero is stomping about the tank and we saw him up top yesterday,first time ever,he's been hanging about at the front,blummin convinced he could smell the others,now 2/3 days with the others he's all over very cool to see them where they should be,climbing rocks,and generally partying,i'd almost lay a bet that we get eggs fairly soon.
Ha uh oh indeed:2thumb:
ahh mate cheers for the kind words,still got a massive way to go but we are learning hard and fast,
and finally Shaz is ok she really is having a proper hard time,god i admire her though,nothing seems to stop her ....shes just woken up and is already thinking about her flies,we're a good ol team us,although i am the talking questioning one she is such a massive part of this,none of this would have happened without her drive
OOOORRRAAA Shaz:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
bring it on eh?
Stu


----------



## Nix

Sounds fab. No haven't got started with that rack, got a bit side tracked buying some more royals :O!

My OH loves my milkies and we are thinking darts next. I am a fruitfly pro breeder - used to have to do it for genetics during my degree!


----------



## soundstounite

Nix said:


> Sounds fab. No haven't got started with that rack, got a bit side tracked buying some more royals :O!
> 
> My OH loves my milkies and we are thinking darts next. I am a fruitfly pro breeder - used to have to do it for genetics during my degree!


 bloody great,erm if i ask real nice can you breed me some hydei with out wings:mf_dribble::mf_dribble::lol2:
Nix as you already know we love lots of different phibs and reps,but have specialised in darts ,i think you'll have a blast with them,them being diurnal is soooooo cool,one gets to see stuff all the time,enchanting little guys,and there is all the other stuff like the tanks/plants that goes with it,on the mysties,i couldn't spot one of the lasses this morning,had me bonce actually in their tank:whistling2: 2 little guys at the front didn't even move,they just are not shy of us at all,and that fabulous slow stalk they do is almost like a slomo version of the other frogs hunting.But ahh mate ten to twelve months for a tad to reach morphing,i guess they do everything slow:lol2: go for it mate you WILL not regret
Stu


----------



## Nix

I only have two frogs at the mo but went and did a live planted exo terra with amazonian milk frogs (supposedly difficult to keep - I haven't found it to be that way) as my first viv and it is awesome. Planting them was sooo much fun. Trouble is evil crickets and locusts keep wrecking my plants  I'm about to take the 5th large pup from one of my broms which is great. My tender ferns bit the dust. Now I am looking for some moss which doesn't mind mixed light/damp conditions. Can you recommend some? 

The milkies are superb to watch when hunting in the evening but something brighter and more active will be stunning. Loads of my faves on your thread!


----------



## soundstounite

Nix said:


> I only have two frogs at the mo but went and did a live planted exo terra with amazonian milk frogs (supposedly difficult to keep - I haven't found it to be that way) as my first viv and it is awesome. Planting them was sooo much fun. Trouble is evil crickets and locusts keep wrecking my plants  I'm about to take the 5th large pup from one of my broms which is great. My tender ferns bit the dust. Now I am looking for some moss which doesn't mind mixed light/damp conditions. Can you recommend some?
> 
> The milkies are superb to watch when hunting in the evening but something brighter and more active will be stunning. Loads of my faves on your thread!


Ferns ,Nix,if you can site them where they get a bit of ventilation,to dry out the fronds and plant them in a really free draining compo,they will do,its all down to the above,mate try polypodium vulgare(native) and i think ours is boston,it puts out little runners which root onto the cork and form a new plant,without any compo whatsoever. we have also got some aspenium scholopendrium sp?(native) that seems to be doing.
Ha we have avoided the crickets two fold,one attacking frogs if they get bigger,and the above....but i have my childhood experaince of providing grub for frogs when one couldn't buy anything other than mealworms,so i guess finding nosh is almost second nature to me,yesterday they had a mix of 2 ff 2 springs one native one cultured,and an assortment of aphids and others,lol its was difficult dividing it all up pots of grub everywhere:lol2:
and as far as favourite well mate,we could go on for ever,we just love them,they all have wonderful traits...our room just ain't gonna be big enough...LMAO
Hmmm and them wingless hydei:whistling2::mf_dribble::lol2:
Stu


----------



## s6t6nic6l

ok. couple of requests:
1: it's time for another panoramic clicking session
2: tell us about the delightful chorus that must be a joy to be passing the lobes (can't believe how loud these little critters get)
3: and then i wanna know about th........ oh yeah that's 2 asked

p.s. thread on said subject 2 soon 

:cheers:
nic


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Ferns ,Nix,if you can site them where they get a bit of ventilation,to dry out the fronds and plant them in a really free draining compo,they will do,its all down to the above,mate try polypodium vulgare(native) and i think ours is boston,it puts out little runners which root onto the cork and form a new plant,without any compo whatsoever. we have also got some aspenium scholopendrium sp?(native) that seems to be doing.
> Ha we have avoided the crickets two fold,one attacking frogs if they get bigger,and the above....*but i have my childhood experaince of providing grub for frogs when one couldn't buy anything other than mealworms,so i guess finding nosh is almost second nature to me,yesterday they had a mix of 2 ff 2 springs one native one cultured,and an assortment of aphids and others,lol its was difficult dividing it all up pots of grub everywhere*:lol2:
> and as far as favourite well mate,we could go on for ever,we just love them,they all have wonderful traits...our room just ain't gonna be big enough...LMAO
> Hmmm and them wingless hydei:whistling2::mf_dribble::lol2:
> Stu


Must be a generational thing mate- I'm still convinced that wild-caught food has the edge in terms of nutrition. All my frogs are much bigger than your darts (which makes it a bit easier) but they get regular top-ups of woodlice, worms, spiders, craneflies, moths etc etc, along with the usual crickets, waxworms (occassionaly), small locusts and mealworms/meal beetles. Variety is good- as I said to somebody recently even a small pond provides more food variety to an amphibian than *we* usually give them!


----------



## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> ok. couple of requests:
> 1: it's time for another panoramic clicking session
> 2: tell us about the delightful chorus that must be a joy to be passing the lobes (can't believe how loud these little critters get)
> 3: and then i wanna know about th........ oh yeah that's 2 asked
> 
> p.s. thread on said subject 2 soon
> 
> :cheers:
> nic


 I'll get on the clicky next couple of weeks mate, bit mental now,hmmm this old muso's ears don't get to hear most of it,but honestly the leucs steal the show,2 are of slight concearn,happy and saffron are sorting out whoms boss and are very evenly matched so we are getting wresting and calling bouts which are pretty much full on,then they get bored,but neither is wining,if they weren't in a 2'cube Nic i'd be worried but there are so many places to get away in that tank i think it'll be ok. Funnily enough the mysties are n't noisey really like a comb being scraped,and Zorro(auratus is a quiet hum),i have to be in the room to hear both of those,Gaz on here told me that darts calling at night means they are breeding or close to it,verified by auratus tad, but not in the luecs yet one was shouting at 12 the other night:gasp: little sod,but its very cool hearing them going off together,i thought i heard a citron call but maybe it was a mystie a couple of weeks back,and the other auratus are just kidlets yet. When we havemoved on a bit and i have more time i might just get a proper mic in there and some other bits and do a proper 24bit recording there might even be a way to sort a proper mic to the camera a vid plus GOOD sound would be really cool i am just strapped for time, having to sort these kids now is a bit of a shock,and all the imputting is taking up my spare mins,its gradually dawning on me that i need a really efficent and space saving rearing system,the auratus have just chucked out 4 clutches in say 3 weeks i guess,largest 9egg,and they are reputed to need to be reared individually...hmmmm,and as above mysties in water for 10 /12 months..LMAO..OMG .Bare with me mate!!
and your last bit has baffled me dude:lol2:
said subject being?....or do you mean the s word?if so no mate its catch up time:mf_dribble:
be lucky mate
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Must be a generational thing mate- I'm still convinced that wild-caught food has the edge in terms of nutrition. All my frogs are much bigger than your darts (which makes it a bit easier) but they get regular top-ups of woodlice, worms, spiders, craneflies, moths etc etc, along with the usual crickets, waxworms (occassionaly), small locusts and mealworms/meal beetles. Variety is good- as I said to somebody recently even a small pond provides more food variety to an amphibian than *we* usually give them!


 utterly convinced too Ron,when we got the super blues ,Marc said feed the hell out of them,they should make quite big frogs,there is no way i can measure Zorro but he's bigger than what the books say mate,its gotta be down to the nosh(if the other 2 came out to feed with him from the off then he might not be the biggest ,he shouldn't be male an all) and as you say the biggy the quality of it,thats not comming from ff's mate,thats the standby,it might well be the case as to why he's fertile straight away too but again can't verify it,ok i haven't hatched them like i should but it WILL come,we are learners aswell.Even if we could harvest every sitable beastie from this country it would still be a snippit of whats available in a rainforrest so one is compelled to try,ahh and for both of us its straight back to being a kid,:mf_dribble:.Catching the wild grub,time well spent,ha and its free:2thumb:
ya good mate?
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> utterly convinced too Ron,when we got the super blues ,Marc said feed the hell out of them,they should make quite big frogs,there is no way i can measure Zorro but he's bigger than what the books say mate,its gotta be down to the nosh(if the other 2 came out to feed with him from the off then he might not be the biggest ,he shouldn't be male an all) and as you say the biggy the quality of it,thats not comming from ff's mate,thats the standby,it might well be the case as to why he's fertile straight away too but again can't verify it,ok i haven't hatched them like i should but it WILL come,we are learners aswell.Even if we could harvest every sitable beastie from this country it would still be a snippit of whats available in a rainforrest so one is compelled to try,ahh and for both of us its straight back to being a kid,:mf_dribble:.Catching the wild grub,time well spent,ha and its free:2thumb:
> *ya good mate?*
> Stu


Yup very. Hope it's good with you and Shaz.:2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Yup very. Hope it's good with you and Shaz.:2thumb:


 me as always 'anging on..... darling suffering but her heads up...we are dartfrog breeders:mf_dribble:
bring it on
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

For the plantsters among us:
last autunm/late summer i got hold of some Polypodium vulgare,a fern called the commom polypody,we used to work in a fern nursery,and of all the ferns we worked with this is the one i believe is most likely to survive in a dart viv,it seems most able to cope with wet and i never saw them rott off,i already have some in our vivs,but that early plant had spores on the underside of its mature fronds,so as they looked worn and old i cut them off,but :gasp: nah they weren't chucked away. I laid then out across the top of a pot in one of our propergators in da room.I figured that if they grew then the resultant fernlets:2thumb: would be almost perfectly addapted to viv life here,we are not there yet but hellish close
So here are some poly vulgare gametophyetes,ha don't look much like ferns eh?,any of you whom have grown the epiwed moss mix will recognise this even if you didn't tie in,that they are fern kids








if you can see at the front is the first frond(actually croisiere but sp? ),first time for me ferns from nothing ...GET IN: victory:








no pic but does any one remember a brom called Shaz,well they still are forming seed,and still not ripe,fertilised in novenber i think,ruddy heck slow or WHAT
A pic of 'ickle mate i guess a week old now still going despite me,good for you :notworthy: fella








never has a little guy been worried about so much,daft sods both! hell if he makes it and comes out without sls it will be a god danm miracle,but well he's alive ya just never know.
And back on the elusive egg to froglet saga,4th clutch,pulled after 3 days one bad egg removed immediately,the others stating their journey,you can just see the line atop which will be tadpol 








ya know i started doing this as a kid,I've picked it back up after what 30 sommit yrs,and I'll never tire of this,c'mon guys hatch:whip::whip:
Stu


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## Ron Magpie

Stu i definitely like the idea of starting your ferns off in the conditions you want to grow them!:no1:


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## Wolfenrook

All but 1 of my in viv ferns started life like that Stu (the 1 been my dwarf staghorn), I didn't plant a one of them, the were just spores on xaxim or nut shells. lol

Keeping my fingers crossed for your tads bud. It's nice that another one of us folks who more or less got into this at the same time have tads now. Just waiting on Ant's (D3tailer's) vanzos to get jiggy now eh. 

Ade


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## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Stu i definitely like the idea of starting your ferns off in the conditions you want to grow them!:no1:


 thanks Ron it might well make their lives a bit easyier i shall pop them about the vivs fairly soon they should go wellhope fully.
Stu


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## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> All but 1 of my in viv ferns started life like that Stu (the 1 been my dwarf staghorn), I didn't plant a one of them, the were just spores on xaxim or nut shells. lol
> 
> Keeping my fingers crossed for your tads bud. It's nice that another one of us folks who more or less got into this at the same time have tads now. Just waiting on Ant's (D3tailer's) vanzos to get jiggy now eh.
> 
> Ade


 Tell me more mate,yup we get this too but they all seem to be pretty much the same species so far,although there are lots of little ones sprouting do you have differing species appearing?
Thanks for the words about the tads mate,yeah totally fingers crossed for Ant's vanzos,and a few other guys too. Mysties can't be too far away i hope female looked huge yesterday,she and the male spend alot of time together but they have only been in their gaff for a few days although the move went very smooth,not to mush stress just gently walked them into abig plastic cup,but its bound to have slowed things slightly. I can't beliece how well little Aero has mied in we fed loads of greenfly today,hin and the 2 lasses were all feeding together an hour later,after they had slowly siddled up on their prey:lol2:
cheers mate
Stu


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## Wolfenrook

They all LOOK the same to my eye bud. My Azureas viv had an absolute load for a while on a nut pod thing, but after a while it died back a bit. They just pretty much appear, I didn't seed with spores or anything, just spores already there. It's the same with mosses quite often, they just appear. lol

I'll be honest, I didn't like mysties much until I saw yours, and then the ones that were at UK Frog Day. I think their character is shown better in your pics, and that's often what makes me like a frog.

Ade


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## soundstounite

Same as with the fernsboth with the spontaneous appearance and the species,although its too early to tell where i have used the epiweb moss mix ,but i have a hunch they are the same too.
The mysties are very much character,big lass was in the brom tonight 'ill post a pic tomorrow and the tad shots ha, mate i missed the prime shot bloody lens steamed upLMAO,she had her head in the water, in a leaf axil, both back legs up in the air,so funny she's been hanging around this brom alot and the fella calls from there maybe...just maybe .From what i have read the temps can get up to 35C where they are found,they seem to use big broms as a cool hide,the temps are much cooler in these brom,axils,and they all seem to go down to the ditch and sit on cool stone,am sure this is just replicating that behaviour,sometimes together sometimes just one.At the same time as one is in the ditch sometimes others are up top,i don't think its related to viv temps as there is no pattern there. The room has a definite pattern of gradually warming from 68/69f to around 75/76F through the day,under the influence of the lights,lowest temp is around 5am at pres. Incidentally tads little jar seems to stay at 72/75. I very much agree about the character of the different species of dart,eventhough we are very fortunate to be able to go to Marc's often and have spent hours staring, its really surprised me how different each species moves and behaves,even in the closely related members of the tinc group,we keep... fascinating
Stu


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## soundstounite

Clutch developement,ok so we pulled one egg real quick,there was one that seemed much bigger than the others,here's yesterdays' pic








over on the left,today it has started to develope as per the others,the size difference in the embryo is no where near as big now strange eh








and ickle mate yesterday,not moving that much but def feeding








today swimming much more ...and also appears to be taking air,dont know if he's eating the midge lavea,but they are there if he wants








been imputting lots about vit A tonight,and its potential relevence to tad developement and the dreaded sls,very interesting,will tell more later as i get it all sorted in my head.
And some froggy fun
Happy learning to walk on 2 legs:2thumb:








And some shots ...yeah i know more:blush: of the mysties in their proper gaff
































seeya
Stu


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## matt_mcmahon77

soundstounite said:


> Clutch developement,ok so we pulled one egg real quick,there was one that seemed much bigger than the others,here's yesterdays' pic
> image
> over on the left,today it has started to develope as per the others,the size difference in the embryo is no where near as big now strange eh
> image
> and ickle mate yesterday,not moving that much but def feeding
> image
> today swimming much more ...and also appears to be taking air,dont know if he's eating the midge lavea,but they are there if he wants
> image
> been imputting lots about vit A tonight,and its potential relevence to tad developement and the dreaded sls,very interesting,will tell more later as i get it all sorted in my head.
> And some froggy fun
> Happy learning to walk on 2 legs:2thumb:
> image
> And some shots ...yeah i know more:blush: of the mysties in their proper gaff
> image
> image
> image
> image
> seeya
> Stu


stop shoving your mysties in my face. I am sooo jealous of these. Great pics though mate.

Nice one, and good luck with the tads.


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## Wolfenrook

Ach, noo, not more lovely pics of your mysties!

*looks at his empty 60x40x40 viv* hmmmmm.....

Ade


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## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> stop shoving your mysties in my face. I am sooo jealous of these. Great pics though mate.
> 
> Nice one, and good luck with the tads.


 :lol2:thanks Matty,hmmm but we did wait...HOW LONG...OMG,once i get a proper pic of the big girl i'll behave...honest...nah, if its any consolation i STILL can't believe we have been so lucky, good things an all that,you'll get em kiddo
Stu


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## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Ach, noo, not more lovely pics of your mysties!
> 
> *looks at his empty 60x40x40 viv* hmmmmm.....
> 
> Ade


:lol2: your life's too complicated anyway,look how i've just simplified your next big descision, seriously mate we do all this reading /learning/culturing/building the ruddy hardest bit is WHICH FROGS do i keep:mf_dribble:
Stu


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## matt_mcmahon77

soundstounite said:


> :lol2:thanks Matty,hmmm but we did wait...HOW LONG...OMG,once i get a proper pic of the big girl i'll behave...honest...nah, if its any consolation i STILL can't believe we have been so lucky, good things an all that,you'll get em kiddo
> Stu


Very true, you were extremely patient. As Soon as I had one of those vivs set up I don't thibk I would have been able to wait 2 weeks, let alone as long as you did. haha.


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## soundstounite

ok in true muppet fashion....the continuing story of 'ickle mate and his brethren
ickle mate seems to have nearly eaten all his mosi larvea so thanks again to all parties for advice,ha was always gonna go there anyway,you know me and wild caught grub,got his first blood worm today,well a couple of hours ago so we'll see what happens as its actually bigger than he is:whistling2:








Hmmm lost the second egg from the clutch...on the right








goneand removed it,and the tools we used for the job,








Zorro is looking after the latest clutch well, i feel,caught him in there today doing his bit,i wonder seen as we don't have any problems so far with eggs being eaten whether i should pull these eggs, i've incubated tens of thousands of bird eggs, artificially, over the years ,and without being bigheaded,i'm bloody good at it,but compared to a bird,well 'im crap!!
One never beats nature,as you can tell early eggs or not,I'm wrestling withthis one,i/we have one tad,which Zorro did all the work on,HMMMMM!!!


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## soundstounite

For matty,ha and Ade
well she's been big for yonks,she's been moved twice,she is bright as a button,climbing feeding etc,so i don't think its anything synaster,sorry its such an awfull shot,but she's gotta get thinner soon surely:gasp:,i'll be real happy just for her when she has,regardless of what happens next,any one think there is other than the obvious going on here?








All thoughts welcome
bring it on!!
Stu


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## soundstounite

ha got some pics of the ....."DARK ONE" she,(i think) is getting bolder,but still very shy,so different from Zorro for the same morph
























and one of Z just for comparison








gotta play catch up on the tads too but still to load and a bit more to do
Seeya
Stu


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## soundstounite

a quick couple of pics of the racks as they are now for Stnic,mate i'll get a proper low down soonish:bash:
















a shot of some of icklemate's grub,just for those whom don't know what bloodworm and mosi/gnat/midge larvae look like








and the eggs yesterday








progress not good down to 3 i reckon as of tonight
Ickle mate growing like a good un,please no sls now:gasp:


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## matt_mcmahon77

soundstounite said:


> a quick couple of pics of the racks as they are now for Stnic,mate i'll get a proper low down soonish:bash:
> image
> image
> a shot of some of icklemate's grub,just for those whom don't know what bloodworm and mosi/gnat/midge larvae look like
> image
> and the eggs yesterday
> image
> progress not good down to 3 i reckon as of tonight
> Ickle mate growing like a good un,please no sls now:gasp:
> image


Nice one Stu, looking good. Can I come and live in your frog room please. It's just AMAZING. And good luck with the tadpoles.


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## Ron Magpie

Stu, it would be great to be able to hate you, 'cos you've got this amazing room and amazing tanks and amazing frogs and amazing breeding success already- but you have seriously slogged your guts out at every stage- and *totally* deserve every success! :notworthy:

And you are seriously nice and (annoyingly) modest- take credit, mate, you deserve it!:no1:


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## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Nice one Stu, looking good. Can I come and live in your frog room please. It's just AMAZING. And good luck with the tadpoles.


 ya wouldn't like it mate....too bloody hot,:2thumb::lol2: thanks mate,actually matty its performed really well today,75F mid height temp,after letting the citrons settle i have been working in there most of the day/eve messing with lights and cultures.one of the ent lights failed,Marc (dartfrog.co.uk) replaced it instantly for me so hats off to him always gives us great service,thanks mate if you read this, and i had to get another 24 watt for the pum viv,this will be so i can run the uvb alongside the massive :lol2:7.5 watt leds. These will come on in the mid part of the day,coupled with the optiwhite we'll see how it goes.
Still only one tad mate:blush:but the frogs are just so young,ha but more gotta come,it can only get better as they mature.
besides the above I have 2 main concearns now
1mystie female...get rid of eggs,ruddy male has stopped calling for a few days now
2 citron male settles(looking really good on 2 though,he's looking very at home,noshing all day even with me poncing about
be lucky kiddo thanks for the kind words ha and the laugh
Stu


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## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Stu, it would be great to be able to hate you, 'cos you've got this amazing room and amazing tanks and amazing frogs and amazing breeding success already- but you have seriously slogged your guts out at every stage- and *totally* deserve every success! :notworthy:
> 
> And you are seriously nice and (annoyingly) modest- take credit, mate, you deserve it!:no1:


 :lol2:what can i say mate...tis for me darlin'. There's always that child in what i do Ron,same with the music,i cherish it,i think back to when i was small with my H.cineria,and dreamt about something like this,so there is always gonna be a stupid amount of enthusiasm,yup it has been a lot of graftand we have BOTH worked our little ar**s off and we,re not even half way:gasp::gasp::gasp:.
Tis a shock that they are breeding mate,yeah quietly knew it would happen one day,although we are not at the stage of success yet,just early fumbling slowly learning the trade,as we did with our birds.
Ron its really cool to be able to show folks a dream like this unfolding,it only happens very rarely in a lifetime,i'm old enough to know that,and having to do this on our budget means that there are many kids whom might be able to pick up on some of the dodges to save a buck,ha and give their little guys a bit better diet than shop bought,hey mate:2thumb:
Getting there though init, me old mate,
Getting there
cheers for the kind words
ha as always
bring it on
Stu


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## soundstounite

Ahh man,dart keeping......we have been stressing about our citronella fella for a while now,last night i really thought he was not going to make it,wish i had more knowledge.But he's still about still kicking myself for not moving him sooner.Damn me if the mystie male has decided to sit up top barely moving for a few days now,he's stopped calling man if we didn't care so much this room wouldn't have happened. Spent a good few hours yesterday quietly watching what they would let my/our prying eyes see of auratus courship,unfortunately one is totally not an exhibitionist:whistling2: Hey ho at the end of the day we got rewarded with a clutch of 6 more eggs! On the subject of auratus eggs still not going great at hatching but eventually we WILL find a method that works for us Ickle mate is going like a good un bloody hell how big do these dart tads get,he must already be knocking on the door of what i remember temporia tads getting to.
Here's a snap of the removed eggs progress,i guess we are down to 2 now,god knows if any will make it out








So at this moment we have the above batch laid last week and another yesterday and one ruddy tad,this is getting like my school report :lol2: must do better. Seriously though all this IS to be expected with young frogs its just frustrating not knowing whether we could do better or are doing anything wrong.
Made good progress on the second large auratus viv 60x60x40high,got to pop int the bottom vent and water test then i guess its background time:2thumb:.
Oh and just to graphically illustrate what a ride this is and in case this has come over as beeing a downer,( although that citron is a weight).......


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## Morgan Freeman

What's up with the cit?


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## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> What's up with the cit?


 Stress i think from the moves and HATING his quarrantine tank, He's done nothing but try to climb out so i reckon has expended more energy than was putting in over time,female has gained weight don't think its an illness of any sort,some tincs are like this have heard of this several times,my mate in holland who is a very good breeder of auratus thnks tinc are one of the hardest to keep,many would ague that !! 
Oh and i know why the mystie male has changed behaviour,i didn't get it till earlier,buggers guarding eggs,but from a hidey hole under a brom about six" awaythey must have been laid just after we put them in,i looked in the can but didn't spot,i even remarked about her trying to climb up to him on here and him calling to her ....DOH:blush::blush: what a :censor: dummy 
Sorry Matty:lol2:








pulled em,as one tad looks like it wants out soon!
Mate you alright not seen ya about so much..or just movin an all?
be lucky dude
Stu


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## Wolfenrook

I think I mentioned before to you Stu how a few tinc morphs once adult stress if you move them didn't I? The worst for it are Regina, hence some folks just wont keep em, but citronellas are another where the adults don't seem to like been moved. Annoyingly I am going to have to move 1 of mine soon, as 2 turned out to be 2 females.

Hopefully yours will pick up soon though, as shouldn't be nearly as bad as a Regina tinc. Now you probably know one of the reasons I try to avoid quarantining tincs, it adds 1 more step to stress them out. Lots of tinc morphs though that don't give a hoot. Your pal has probably just gone for the ones like cits, Regina etc, less common over here probably thanks to their sensitivity to change, hence he thinks they are harder.

Oh, to put things into perspective, I barely saw my cits for a good 6 months after getting them. They took a lot longer to become as bold as they are now. So yeah, cits are sensitive to stress from moving.

Ade


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## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> I think I mentioned before to you Stu how a few tinc morphs once adult stress if you move them didn't I? The worst for it are Regina, hence some folks just wont keep em, but citronellas are another where the adults don't seem to like been moved. Annoyingly I am going to have to move 1 of mine soon, as 2 turned out to be 2 females.
> 
> Hopefully yours will pick up soon though, as shouldn't be nearly as bad as a Regina tinc. Now you probably know one of the reasons I try to avoid quarantining tincs, it adds 1 more step to stress them out. Lots of tinc morphs though that don't give a hoot. Your pal has probably just gone for the ones like cits, Regina etc, less common over here probably thanks to their sensitivity to change, hence he thinks they are harder.
> 
> Oh, to put things into perspective, I barely saw my cits for a good 6 months after getting them. They took a lot longer to become as bold as they are now. So yeah, cits are sensitive to stress from moving.
> 
> Ade


Yup you did Ade,and its not the first time i have heard about this,fella is still going,so its very much fingers crossed! But they are not really shy like yours seem to have been,actually the female comes out,sometimes the male too when we are talking in the room or open the door for misting or feeding,she doesn't seem to know about this stress thing, indivual frogs with different personalities i guess.
I wonder greatly about the diet of tincs,so many guys don't seen to get them up to the wild size,of course this could be down to a miriad of reasons,cheers for the thoughts
Stu


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## Wolfenrook

Size often depends on how many generatiosn removed they are from wild bud. You will rarely see a captive bred tinc the size of a wild caught one, they are BEASTS. lol I reckon that the problem is we can't even come close on providing the variety of foods they get in the wild, that and we possibly err on the side of underfeeding them a bit. I doubt that ANY of my tincs are wild sized, even my huge Regina.

Heck you should have seen the 'Surinam import' "cits" (they looked more like Nikita to me) Rana had at frog day! They were absolutely MASSIVE!

Ade


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## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Size often depends on how many generatiosn removed they are from wild bud. You will rarely see a captive bred tinc the size of a wild caught one, they are BEASTS. lol I reckon that the problem is we can't even come close on providing the variety of foods they get in the wild, that and we possibly err on the side of underfeeding them a bit. I doubt that ANY of my tincs are wild sized, even my huge Regina.
> 
> Heck you should have seen the 'Surinam import' "cits" (they looked more like Nikita to me) Rana had at frog day! They were absolutely MASSIVE!
> 
> Ade


 Exactly what i was eluding to Ade,you summed it up perfectly, coupled with the mites part of their diet. Ha still wish we could have gone, very much wanted to see the rana stuff!!! The plan for me has always been to stuff em while they are growing then back off.Just starting to really concentrate on how much the leucs are getting,am thinking they are about about full grown now,and nearly all at the stage where i don't want then obese,tricky 'cause the pie lady whom is massive compared to the others is not carrying the weight to the extent some of the boys are,she's had so much more growing to do,in 5/10 years 'ill have this down,its where some of the art will be methinks....real tiny nuances here.
God mate don't these tads grow,am stunned on our first auratus,growth rate is unreal!!!!! 
OOOOO second tad out this avo,only one though,again,bugger but still STOKED :2thumb:


C'Mon guys first MYSTIE EGGS A congrats are in order EH:whistling2::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash:,hey ho
goes off to make a noise in a strop:lol2::lol2::lol2:
seeya 
belucky
(please hatch little spotty froggies)
bring it ON!!
Stu


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## matt_mcmahon77

Stu, congratulations on the mystie eggs. I am really happy for you. now you have to keep me updated. Nice work!!


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## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Stu, congratulations on the mystie eggs. I am really happy for you. now you have to keep me updated. Nice work!!


:lol2::mf_dribble: Well thankyou kind sir,take no credit though ,they did all the work:blush:. Now we gotta see if they hatch,and then the small matter of rearing a tadpol for betwixt 10 and 12 months,yup they take THAT long:gasp:.
My hopw is matty that they hatch a bit better than the auratus as they are older,it will mean if they do that,our so far poor hatches are down to young frogs I suppose,and not one of umpteen other possible causes
BRING IT ON so stoked
Stu


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## Morgan Freeman

Stu-pot, I've been thinking. I wonder whether the wide variety of foods you feed have helped contribute to your immediate breeding success?


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## matt_mcmahon77

soundstounite said:


> :lol2::mf_dribble: Well thankyou kind sir,take no credit though ,they did all the work:blush:. Now we gotta see if they hatch,and then the small matter of rearing a tadpol for betwixt 10 and 12 months,yup they take THAT long:gasp:.
> My hopw is matty that they hatch a bit better than the auratus as they are older,it will mean if they do that,our so far poor hatches are down to young frogs I suppose,and not one of umpteen other possible causes
> BRING IT ON so stoked
> Stu


Yeah I know its a mentally long time for a frog to morph, will be awesome to see BUT a lot of work...!!! Good luck


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Stu-pot, I've been thinking. I wonder whether the wide variety of foods you feed have helped contribute to your immediate breeding success?


 I do too Paul,)read the answer to your last post mate,need to know your good!!)
Its one of those we'll never really know,i guess.Remember hatch rate is poor though,but I am utterly convinced it will improve,guys that are vastly experianced are amazed i am getting hatches with youngsters like these they are not normally fertile so so quick.
Paul the growth rate on the tad is unbeievable,truely remarkable,might be same reason(also adding some dryed nettle to his diet,and a decapod called cyclop-EEZE (bought)!
The wild food is a risk in some ways,but everything we use COULD be contaminated with something,but i AS A BEGINNER! massively believe in the benefits and that they outway the cons,unless one is very unlucky. Its one of a number of factors mate i suppose thorough homework/deligence/old school stockmanship/OBSEVATION/uvb/thought given to their gaff..... all play a part.
But personnally i will never be able to get away from the variety of stuff they could eat in the wild vs what we feed. It is a well proven fact that considerable success is being had with ff's and supps,and a few other feeders. But it don't sit well on these shoulders. Time will tell paul, there could be long term implications with our chosen path both with food and water,which could be grave!! if nothing horrid happens to us, then its our intention to do this for as long as we can as best we can so, we'll all know what happens.
Simply put one can't beat nature ,its so so complex a force.Work with it!!!! is the phylosophy. Just ain't natural to feed a froggy just ff's and some man made chemicals,however highly i respect the makers of the products we use!(Which in the case of Allen Repashy is HUGE )
Tell ya what though i know what i am seeing,(ok with beginners eyes in this field) and so far it is not negative!
Citron male feeding a bit more today,not there yet though.No shyness with these,and no viv stress,settled,i hope. Fingers crossed,oh Shaz, (she's such a good stockman!) noticed a little lump in his gut that moves when he was feeding,could simply be underweight frog and grub passing into his gut maybe a worm,anyone any thoughts?
regards
Stu


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## Morgan Freeman

Oh I'm fine!

I would be highly surprised if your first clutches were all completely successful, they're still young frogs and it's their first clutch. But you're doing very well so far. It's really good to see!

As for the natural diet, I'm inclined to agree, I really need to get some more foods on the go, I'm only doing springs, FF (hydei and mels) and sometimes FF larvae as they seem to love it!

No idea on the stomach I'm afraid, I'd stick something on one of the specialist boards. It ONLY moves when it's feeding?


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## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Oh I'm fine!
> 
> I would be highly surprised if your first clutches were all completely successful, they're still young frogs and it's their first clutch. But you're doing very well so far. It's really good to see!
> 
> As for the natural diet, I'm inclined to agree, I really need to get some more foods on the go, I'm only doing springs, FF (hydei and mels) and sometimes FF larvae as they seem to love it!
> 
> No idea on the stomach I'm afraid, I'd stick something on one of the specialist boards. It ONLY moves when it's feeding?


 Dude glad your good!! Paul, get some trop woods going,although they take yonks woods are the easiest culture,am experimenting on an edible culture for 'em,details are here i think but lots of leaves,rotton safe wood bit of card on top,plus some orgainic eggshell.Barely need to feed em,vented container,keep warm...chill...SORTED,bit of tetramin/readybreak once a week,ha if they run out no worries they eat the substrate.cardboard/eggshell.Card is also barometer for humidity,spray occassionally one end just damp,NOT TOO WET.tis an absolute doddle,no work...you'll love it:lol2:. Am working on a Ron inspired dodge au natural for quick harvest,same everything as above,get in garden find every louce you can,bung in tub,(look in particular for ones with a white lump underneath...eggs or kids),within 2/3 weeks loads of babies in culture...frog grub, place a stack of bits or cardboard mist a tad..not much on card,harvest babies in card...GET IN...whose the daddie:lol2:
ha i do occassionally have me moments LMAO
Citron photos loading
nah mate i said it moves when feeding(not only) not noticed it before maybe just grub!!
They both know us,betwixt the last post nipped up to room for misting/ pics of tad,popped uvb light over tads,both citrons somewhere at the back,had a chat with them sorted light,and both had come to see me so snapped a couple complete with wet glass lol. both were feeding,might be good ,I dunno,he seemed barely able to support his own weight 'other day now jumping.
Stu


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## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Yeah I know its a mentally long time for a frog to morph, will be awesome to see BUT a lot of work...!!! Good luck


 Crazy init mate,don't care about the work,tis fun to me,what will mess me up if they do hatch and rear is if they have sls,that wil :censor: me right up,having to kill a little un after all that.... hardcore mate. I /we are already attached to "Ickle mate" after a few weeks(stupid sods how can ya get attached to a blummin blob of jelly with eyes and a tail lol).
Any way i have been rabbiting about how much he's grown i hope this pic puts that into perspective Ickle mate plus 2nd tad I M hatched aprox 3 weeks tad 2 yesterday


----------



## soundstounite

soundstounite said:


> Crazy init mate,don't care about the work,tis fun to me,what will mess me up if they do hatch and rear is if they have sls,that wil :censor: me right up,having to kill a little un after all that.... hardcore mate. I /we are already attached to "Ickle mate" after a few weeks(stupid sods how can ya get attached to a blummin blob of jelly with eyes and a tail lol).
> Any way i have been rabbiting about how much he's grown i hope this pic puts that into perspective Ickle mate plus 2nd tad I M hatched aprox 3 weeks tad 2 yesterday
> image


 Yeah that shows it,not quite as in life but WTF,might need a bigger viv for him,don't suppose a bullfrog got in there do ya?:lol2:
Ok here's that lump,just behind front leg joint not always visable,not tumour i don't think,any ideas folks?








and some quick snaps as they came out to see what i was up to
































seeya
Stu


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

soundstounite said:


> Crazy init mate,don't care about the work,tis fun to me,what will mess me up if they do hatch and rear is if they have sls,that wil :censor: me right up,having to kill a little un after all that.... hardcore mate. I /we are already attached to "Ickle mate" after a few weeks(stupid sods how can ya get attached to a blummin blob of jelly with eyes and a tail lol).
> Any way i have been rabbiting about how much he's grown i hope this pic puts that into perspective Ickle mate plus 2nd tad I M hatched aprox 3 weeks tad 2 yesterday
> image


He really has grown, thats awesome. Yeah I would.get really attached as welland would gutted if.something happened. 
What do you think it is that makes the mysties such slow developers, do you think its like that in the wild as well? I'm sure they will all do just fine with you. They are in great hands!!


soundstounite said:


> Yeah that shows it,not quite as in life but WTF,might need a bigger viv for him,don't suppose a bullfrog got in there do ya?:lol2:
> Ok here's that lump,just behind front leg joint not always visable,not tumour i don't think,any ideas folks?
> image
> and some quick snaps as they came out to see what i was up to
> image
> image
> image
> image
> seeya
> Stu


Your vivs really are stunning mate, you and shaz should be ecstatic about what you have achieved and those frogs are lovely. Hope the male keeps going for you and the little lump is nothing.


----------



## richie.b

Nice one Stu on the mysties, you did say she was ready to burst :2thumb:

And youre doing well getting even one tadpole from the auratus at this early stage, it will all come together buddy dont worry then you will be overrun with froglets.
Have you decided what youre getting next, Pumilios maybe :mf_dribble:

Richie

saying that dont you need to get Shazs azzies :whistling2:


----------



## MaMExotics

ok ive spent all day reading this thread but can i ask some stuuf how many frogs do u have now and how much of each species. and can u put put a some pics of the whole room pics and you's have mentioned some websites could u link me to some of them??


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> He really has grown, thats awesome. Yeah I would.get really attached as welland would gutted if.something happened.
> What do you think it is that makes the mysties such slow developers, do you think its like that in the wild as well? I'm sure they will all do just fine with you. They are in great hands!!
> 
> 
> Your vivs really are stunning mate, you and shaz should be ecstatic about what you have achieved and those frogs are lovely. Hope the male keeps going for you and the little lump is nothing.


 Hey Matty,cit male improving just had word that an american breeder of tincs see's this he thinks its a muscle contracting,so i think we'll be ok,ha am so bloody stoked,he fed real well today best we have seen,corner turned dude!!!! But the lesson is really really look at your frogs,thats those old screwed up stockmans eyes,both me and Shaz,and react to what THEY the frogs tell ya,i bet if we left this a couple of days it would be dread!!
Mat it just gets better and better today,3 mystie eggs are now.......3 mystie tads so maybe ...just maybe the poor auratus hatches are NOT down to us but just as everyone keep telling me young frogs,but see one doesn't know if one is screwing it up,mysties are older so as above somewhere SHOULD hatch,er and 'tother female has just got very big over last few days(oh crap).
Why they take so long,ahh mate what can i say its a mystery(sorry:lol2 there will be a evolutionary reason for sure,they live in extremes from what i can gather,they prefer cooler temps but where they live 35C is not uncommon,they seem to use big ol broms as temp regulators,maybe there is a tie in eg if they lay in the cool months and tad take 12 months,then babies hatch in the cool so survival chances are better,hmmm there's a theory,the boffins can disprove that:2thumb:
Mate we are getting there i think,here's the rub;when one is really driven to do ones best one can't afford the luxury of saying thats good enough,it takes the hunger away to do better on the next one,so one tries to do better,and hopefully one does,yup i know its weird,but i never said i was sane,we have so far to go yet mate,we have to stay focused,it would be so easy now to be unbelieveably chuffed (which we are of course we breed dart frogs:mf_dribble but gotta keep cutting glass and trying to make cool gaffs that the frogs think is cool and that they will be happy in,don't that citronella male exemplify that!! A nice little Qt tub might have nearly done him in even though his lady thought it was ok,but a carefully crafted and thought about home(OK made for a different morph of his species) and within a few days,he is changing,he saying "this is back in my jungle... i don't need to get out of here" yup i know its mad but ya can see it.....
luecs are calling
oh hell
:lol2:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Nice one Stu on the mysties, you did say she was ready to burst :2thumb:
> 
> And youre doing well getting even one tadpole from the auratus at this early stage, it will all come together buddy dont worry then you will be overrun with froglets.
> Have you decided what youre getting next, Pumilios maybe :mf_dribble:
> 
> Richie
> 
> saying that dont you need to get Shazs azzies :whistling2:


 First things good with ya bro?
Second nah pums later i know mate so so want!!!!!!!!!
4th well every time i think i have her lovely azzies sorted life hits us bigstyle but i am totally working on it,but she also knows EXACTLY what she wantslol2:don't they always kiddo don't they always),they will come though Rich and you are exactly right to point this out:blush: am just hanging on as always mate.
After the mysties hatch Rich i think we might be ok with time with the auratus pretty sure that its not us at fault not not 100% but ya know.
Rich is the above auratus growth rate normal?
Both mystie females are big now mate the one has always been much thinner but in the last few days she has noticibly bulked,pretty sure that the male had started to call again but only Shaz heared it,ruddy guitarists have done my ears,and she's not totally sure yet betwixt auratus and mystie calls,
cool ride init!!!
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

MaMExotics said:


> ok ive spent all day reading this thread but can i ask some stuuf how many frogs do u have now and how much of each species. and can u put put a some pics of the whole room pics and you's have mentioned some websites could u link me to some of them??


 hey Mam,ahh man we have
3 superblue auratus breeding 2 tads
5 panama special auratus kids
5 leucs big kids getting very close i guess
4 mysties 3 adultsbreeding and supposedly one young male 3 tads
websites not good at links bro but
www.dartfrog.co.uk
www.rainforestvivs
www.dendroboard.com
www.dartden.com
www.dendroworld.co.uk
www.dutchrana.nl
www.entterrientechnick.de close but possiblywrong
www.dendrobatidea nederlande also close 
www.pollywog.co.uk
pics of whole room will come but not time at presant although the important bits wer posted for Stnic a few days ago
Cheers 
Stu


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> First things good with ya bro?
> Second nah pums later i know mate so so want!!!!!!!!!
> 4th well every time i think i have her lovely azzies sorted life hits us bigstyle but i am totally working on it,but she also knows EXACTLY what she wantslol2:don't they always kiddo don't they always),they will come though Rich and you are exactly right to point this out:blush: am just hanging on as always mate.
> After the mysties hatch Rich i think we might be ok with time with the auratus pretty sure that its not us at fault not not 100% but ya know.
> Rich is the above auratus growth rate normal?
> Both mystie females are big now mate the one has always been much thinner but in the last few days she has noticibly bulked,pretty sure that the male had started to call again but only Shaz heared it,ruddy guitarists have done my ears,and she's not totally sure yet betwixt auratus and mystie calls,
> cool ride init!!!
> Stu


 Yer im good thanks Stu, busy with work and also got a large order of vivs to make plus creaks show on 24th so even more vivs, plus still trying to get the frogroom finished so a bit mad at the moment
No its not anything youre doing with the auratus buddy it just takes time, the growth rate on tadpoles will also depend on temperature the warmer the water the quicker they morph and with the warm weather of late thats proberbly speeded things up a bit plus all your fantastic feeding, word of caution though in some cases tadpoles that grow and morph quicker are not always as strong as ones that take longer to morph. Mind you even putting the mystie tads in a kettle wont bring them on any quicker, theyre still slower than a women giving birth :lol2:

cheers
Richie


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Yer im good thanks Stu, busy with work and also got a large order of vivs to make plus creaks show on 24th so even more vivs, plus still trying to get the frogroom finished so a bit mad at the moment
> No its not anything youre doing with the auratus buddy it just takes time, the growth rate on tadpoles will also depend on temperature the warmer the water the quicker they morph and with the warm weather of late thats proberbly speeded things up a bit plus all your fantastic feeding, word of caution though in some cases tadpoles that grow and morph quicker are not always as strong as ones that take longer to morph. Mind you even putting the mystie tads in a kettle wont bring them on any quicker, theyre still slower than a women giving birth :lol2:
> 
> cheers
> Richie


 Ha brilliant mate,yeah shaz took ruddy days,:lol2:
yeah Rich am very aware that fast tads might not produce they strongest frogs,but in giving him live food i thought the little begger will chomp what he wants,i am not really trying for fast just big and strong will do just fine am utterly stunned at how big so soon,i didn't think it would ever be this big period.Roughly how long did the mysties(not in the kettle ahh you made me laugh) take for you mate? good luck withthe vivs buddy
must sleep
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

E.N.T. Terrarientechnik


http://www.dutch-rana.nl/


----------



## Alex M

Hello Stu,

Don't go on the forums much these days at all, but had a quick read of this thread this morning - Overall, great news, your hard work and dedication is paying off and you're reaping the rewards - I struggle to think of anybody, whether private or professional, that puts quite as much effort into their charges as you do. You fully deserve what you are currently experiencing (even if it is a bit of a rollercoaster ).

Cheers
Al


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> E.N.T. Terrarientechnik
> 
> 
> Terrarium, gifkikkers, fruitvliegen, sproeiers - Dutch-Rana Online - Home


 cheers dude
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Alex M said:


> Hello Stu,
> 
> Don't go on the forums much these days at all, but had a quick read of this thread this morning - Overall, great news, your hard work and dedication is paying off and you're reaping the rewards - I struggle to think of anybody, whether private or professional, that puts quite as much effort into their charges as you do. You fully deserve what you are currently experiencing (even if it is a bit of a rollercoaster ).
> 
> Cheers
> Al


hey mate good to see ya about,thanks for the very kind words mate,:notworthy:livestock is a rollercoaster,don't wanna get off though:2thumb:,god damn it i still got that cd sat on my table doh i sorted it a month ago and still forgot to post it,what a dummy. Citron male out and about this morn just in from work,any news on the breviceps?
Al tis all good really,just abit fast,suprised we are!!! hope you are good mate i always love to hear from ya,all tads look good too,must get back to it bro,got growing grub so sort and then rest of the day is over to froggies,wouldn't have it any other way
best always mate and 
totally be lucky
Stu
Ps my mate the beginner whom i am pushing like a ruddy mini hitler(keeps him away from stuff for a few hours,so all good,and one is meant to be cruel to guitarists:2thumb::mf_dribble::lol2 and i have called ourselves: 
The Budgie Smugglers,cool name init...LMAO


----------



## soundstounite

Well we now have 3 mystie tads,from 3 good eggs, i don't know whether i told ya all,so everything now points to just time with the auratus,lost the complete clutch left in the viv so pulled the one laid last monday,all 7 eggs good at presant.
Massive difference in the mysties tads compared to the auratus tads,my dutch mate and mentor on everthing auratus,says his auratus tads are also very slow aswell,the mystie tads are really strong swimmers compared at d/o,unbelieveably so,almost a paradox when one compares what the adults are like concearning movement.
Ihad to laugh at myself today,i have some little tadpols in glasses,i was everso carefully giving each one a bit of pondweed,a bit of duckweed a few mosi larvea a few blood worms,trying to creata a little pond in a drinking glass for each little tadpol,which i will chuck away tomorrow,but i didn't even realise until after what i had done...all subconsious:bash::lol2:
3 little mysties at a day or 2 old just before i separated them from the egg mass...bless








seeya
Stu


----------



## stewie m

do you have any probs with temps in there this time of year how do u stop it getting to hot in there 

i should be doin a rep shed at some point in the nere futer just geeting a few ideas and as much info as poss really


----------



## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> do you have any probs with temps in there this time of year how do u stop it getting to hot in there
> 
> i should be doin a rep shed at some point in the nere futer just geeting a few ideas and as much info as poss really


 hey Stewie where ya been mate?
ha you'll laugh at this go right back to the very first post,your answer is there,page 1 post 1,i monitored the room for 8 months or so before starting,can't beat the homework and slow thorough approach,so after the hottest part of the summer with all the lights working what have i now learned,open the door and a window on the stairs outside and its sorted,78F max mid height of the room is top so far.
The BIGGY here stew is i chose a room that gets no sun after around 8.30-9oclock,so site your shed in the shade...under a tree behind a building or do some serious insultation,plus aircon,the room is suited perfect for this mate,and i have backup knowledge of the shed senario becuase my music is made in a highly insulated shed,becuase i am one seriously noisey :censor:ing drummer,proper full on loud I'm told:whistling2:.Your problem mate is multiple lights and the heat they give out,our room gradually rises though the day,untill the lights go out,and we have lots of led's which don't give out much heat aswell.
My studio is like a fridge on the hottest day... because of the insulation for sound.....untill i switch the gear on and start giving it some then it becomes a furnace you will have to have aircon,or they'll cook,in a shed!!!
Ha a dodge of course is to reverse the lighting so its on at night,off in the day...ya get?
Stu


----------



## stewie m

i havent been any were just havnt post on here as much still come on time to time 

i get ya mate i was thinkng of putting a fan in there but not sure weather it would be enough unless i go for one of thos bigger industrial ones wose case i will turn the lights of this time of year just have them on a couple hours or some thing 

whats size is yours i dont rember seeing it any were 

im not to fusesed a with winter got that coved will be well insulated with tube heater think we was going for a double floor and every thing


----------



## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> i havent been any were just havnt post on here as much still come on time to time
> 
> i get ya mate i was thinkng of putting a fan in there but not sure weather it would be enough unless i go for one of thos bigger industrial ones wose case i will turn the lights of this time of year just have them on a couple hours or some thing
> 
> whats size is yours i dont rember seeing it any were
> 
> im not to fusesed a with winter got that coved will be well insulated with tube heater think we was going for a double floor and every thing


 reckon you'll need more than a fan mate,don't think it would be wise to cut lights to 2 hrs,equatorial stuff runs around 12 hrs,it would mess me up only having 2 hrs of daylight,god knows what it would do to froggies,,reverse lights mate on at night!!!Off when hot,in day!!,if you have many tanks you'll have to keep them cool somehow really don't believe a fan will cut it!!
Room size first post too i reckon,ruddy heck now i've forgot,around 2.35Mx2.85M i think,lol will have to check
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

soundstounite said:


> reckon you'll need more than a fan mate,don't think it would be wise to cut lights to 2 hrs,equatorial stuff runs around 12 hrs,it would mess me up only having 2 hrs of daylight,god knows what it would do to froggies,,reverse lights mate on at night!!!Off when hot,in day!!,if you have many tanks you'll have to keep them cool somehow really don't believe a fan will cut it!!
> Room size first post too i reckon,ruddy heck now i've forgot,around 2.35Mx2.85M i think,lol will have to check
> Stu


 yup room size as stated,ha also first post,how the hell did i remember that?:2thumb:


----------



## stewie m

this is the only thing consening me over heating in the summer 



ou got a point with having the lights on for a couple hours might post in the habitat section see what over do


----------



## stewie m

think were going for 10x8


----------



## stewie m

were your leds expensive


----------



## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> this is the only thing consening me over heating in the summer
> 
> 
> 
> ou got a point with having the lights on for a couple hours might post in the habitat section see what over do


 they gotta have them lights stew,its a must,trust me if you have many tanks then you'll need some form of cooling,as above i know this stuff from me studio,the insultation will keep it toasty in winter but will add to the heat in summer,youre gonna have to start saving mate, for air con or run the shed without livestock with tanks and lights for ayear and see what happens,if i was a betting man i'd take your dollar on this:mf_dribble::lol2:.My wooden shed/studio is insulated to the max,quadruple glazing,twin doors,double soundshield plasterboard with airgaps (4 times denser than normal plaster board) 50mm dense rockwool,and a coat of render,every airgap sealed,in the last minus 19 winter it was still warm,with half the size oil rad that is in the frogroom made of bricks and triple glazed, and its twice the size at least....buddy i know this stuff ,mate NOT OFTEN i say that!!
No cooling will bring you a world of pain or at least your phibs!! unless they come from a desert and can cope with heat bigstyle
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> were your leds expensive


 I think around £200 for all the room plus have the big rack to sort, around £90 to spend,but homemade, around £30 a meter,using 15 watt, if i remember right,but Cree leds might work better,see somewhere on dendroboard,but of course no uvb yet!!!
Stu


----------



## phelsumaman

soundstounite said:


> I think around £200 for all the room plus have the big rack to sort, around £90 to spend,but homemade, around £30 a meter,using 15 watt, if i remember right,but Cree leds might work better,see somewhere on dendroboard,but of course no uvb yet!!!
> Stu


Hey stu, very interested in these LED'S can you point me in the right direction please? 

Also as mentioned elsewhere on here tonight I can't register for denndroboard, who can I speak to to get me in as it were (or do i need to know the masons handshake :flrt::whistling2
Thanks again
Ben


----------



## stewie m

soundstounite said:


> I think around £200 for all the room plus have the big rack to sort, around £90 to spend,but homemade, around £30 a meter,using 15 watt, if i remember right,but Cree leds might work better,see somewhere on dendroboard,but of course no uvb yet!!!
> Stu


with leds can u get proper reptile ones with the right uv if u see what i mean so each rep has the right amount of uv im not doin racking as such as im haveing wooden vivs as well so will need to light each viv sep


----------



## Wolfenrook

UV LEDs are in their infancy, and as such EXTREMELY expensive, as in about £26 for one that ONLY gives off UV. Anybody who remember the old days (I've only heard of them) of folks using blacklight UV for reps will know why these haven't appeared in the phib or reptile hobby.

There is absolutely no reason however why if you really need UV you can't just combine normal cree LED lighting with a small low watteage reptile bulb. This comes with the advantage as well that you can have your LEDs on for the normal daylight cylce, and have your UV come on just for a few hours a day for basking times (for want of a better description).

As to 'proper reptile ones' I am guessing you mean ones sold specifically for rep keeping? In which case yeah, ENT sell them. However, they cost about the same as TMC grobeams (aimed at planted aquariums) but are less powerful. Plus folks like Stu love DIY, and know they can do it cheaper using Cree XP and similar LEDs and DIY it.

Just out of interest, I used an IR thermometer to check how hot the heatsink gets on my Grobeam 1000ND the other day after it had been on most of the day, it read 55 degress Celsius. So I went and pointed the same IR thermometer at my tubes in my 4x39 watt luminaire and it read 89 degrees Celsius..... Enough said really (my 1000ND gives off a similar intensity of light).

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

phelsumaman said:


> Hey stu, very interested in these LED'S can you point me in the right direction please?
> 
> Also as mentioned elsewhere on here tonight I can't register for denndroboard, who can I speak to to get me in as it were (or do i need to know the masons handshake :flrt::whistling2
> Thanks again
> Ben


 Ben will get on stuff tomorrow,no time buddy,weird this speaking in america and then here huh! info on how they were built on denw.
gotta dash!
S


----------



## soundstounite

soundstounite said:


> Ben will get on stuff tomorrow,no time buddy,weird this speaking in america and then here huh! info on how they were built on denw.
> gotta dash!
> S


 enquiry made!
Stu


----------



## nickcradd067

Ron Magpie said:


> Stu, it would be great to be able to hate you, 'cos you've got this amazing room and amazing tanks and amazing frogs and amazing breeding success already- but you have seriously slogged your guts out at every stage- and *totally* deserve every success! :notworthy:
> 
> And you are seriously nice and (annoyingly) modest- take credit, mate, you deserve it!:no1:


It has taken me about 2 weeks to read this thread from start to finish but I totally agree with Ron!!

I am just starting up in the dartfrog hobby and I will use your example as the ultimate model of success, well done pal!


----------



## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> with leds can u get proper reptile ones with the right uv if u see what i mean so each rep has the right amount of uv im not doin racking as such as im haveing wooden vivs as well so will need to light each viv sep


Ha Ade has my back here,thanks ,Ade. His temperature readings say volumes,and as Ade states having a twin system up is exactly what we are heading towards.
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

phelsumaman said:


> Hey stu, very interested in these LED'S can you point me in the right direction please?
> 
> Also as mentioned elsewhere on here tonight I can't register for denndroboard, who can I speak to to get me in as it were (or do i need to know the masons handshake :flrt::whistling2
> Thanks again
> Ben


 Cobblers Ben did you mean dendroworld or board,will sort on the PM mate as its already on its way!!
We used www.ultraleds.co.uk cool white 1200lumen/M 15watts,initial reports from moi are good,plant growth good,frogs seem cool with it,i suspect the cree might be better,but i needed this sorting fast at the timedue to amount of plants we had overwintering,the do the job mate,but i can't help being a seriously picky sod!!

The similar thread on dendroworld has a making bit thats not here,didn't get much interest so with time constraints just posted once.if ya want i'll pop it up here too,but might take a little while,headless chuck i am,say the words bro it will be done,no worries
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> UV LEDs are in their infancy, and as such EXTREMELY expensive, as in about £26 for one that ONLY gives off UV. Anybody who remember the old days (I've only heard of them) of folks using blacklight UV for reps will know why these haven't appeared in the phib or reptile hobby.
> 
> There is absolutely no reason however why if you really need UV you can't just combine normal cree LED lighting with a small low watteage reptile bulb. This comes with the advantage as well that you can have your LEDs on for the normal daylight cylce, and have your UV come on just for a few hours a day for basking times (for want of a better description).
> 
> As to 'proper reptile ones' I am guessing you mean ones sold specifically for rep keeping? In which case yeah, ENT sell them. However, they cost about the same as TMC grobeams (aimed at planted aquariums) but are less powerful. Plus folks like Stu love DIY, and know they can do it cheaper using Cree XP and similar LEDs and DIY it.
> 
> Just out of interest, I used an IR thermometer to check how hot the heatsink gets on my Grobeam 1000ND the other day after it had been on most of the day, it read 55 degress Celsius. So I went and pointed the same IR thermometer at my tubes in my 4x39 watt luminaire and it read 89 degrees Celsius..... Enough said really (my 1000ND gives off a similar intensity of light).
> 
> Ade


cheers dude:2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

nickcradd067 said:


> It has taken me about 2 weeks to read this thread from start to finish but I totally agree with Ron!!
> 
> I am just starting up in the dartfrog hobby and I will use your example as the ultimate model of success, well done pal!


 Hey Nick always nice to see a new face,ha that old chap has helped us chucking mad thoughts at us way before the room thread started,good for ya Ron.
Wow ya read it all:notworthy:,thanks mate!! Glad you enjoyed its nice when ya get embroiled in a long old thread,lol,ya get the thought process and the results if they come.
so what darts are you thinking Nick? take your time mate relish it ,so many little things to learn,and so many different disaplines,ha such a blast,and they have wonderful character.Wish you every sucess mate,really appreciate the kind words
Mad init we're only just starting,and even with all the prep am still being caught on the hop:lol2:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Hell... here we go sb clutches getting stronger 3 out of seven this time








at last...had a weird one this weekend auratus eggs dragged all over the viv,managed to rescue them but had to cut them off the moss outside the filmcan,unreal, 4 are actually fertile,don't hold out much hope of them being able to make it but its amzing they have started to develope at all.
here's a not great shot of a mystie tad all 3 going on well









all good so far on tad front i think,as some of you will have clocked our citronella male is gaining weight well chuffed plenty of good ol wild grub may well be aiding him here they are noshing
















































and as i don't often get a chance of the guys together this is quite nice to,lots of calling from domino our old er male,he was doing guide tours today of the film cans with the 2 lasses but no results yet
















All the panamas seem to be in good spirits too and our superb luecs are still having calling bouts but the wrestling has stopped between happry and Saffron,for the mo
night all
Stu


----------



## Row'n'Bud

Fantastic shots of stunning frogs ..... Off now to read this entire thread :lol2:


----------



## richie.b

Love the photos of the Mysties Stu :2thumb: not that i dont like the cits you understand :blush:

Richie


----------



## s6t6nic6l

*on behalf of all who follow this nonsense*

Well i/we have to say you are (still) providing us with an outstanding project thread here. :no1:

:idea: The reading has been informative with plenty of excellent tips and advice for all to utilise in their projects. 

Lots of banter, humour and stories throughout to keep our interest in place. :grouphug:
And, of course, DA ROOM is a wonderful achievement in itself. :notworthy:

i would have to say, they must be some of the best provided and cared for critters to be kept in captivity; *commendable*.

You may even start reaping some of the rewards of your endeavours by the selling of the "latter staged frothy coffee tads"* from the breeding success you have managed to initiate.

So, to you, your good lady and all the critters, here's hoping everything turns out for the best.

good luck 
:cheers:
nic

:devil: *kudos goes to first to de-cipher, fully mind you :whistling2:


----------



## soundstounite

Row'n'Bud said:


> Fantastic shots of stunning frogs ..... Off now to read this entire thread :lol2:


 hey Buddy,they still pigging out?:lol2: erm you might want a few drinks to get ya through it all:blush:,
Just best of luck with those citronella mate.
Regards
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Love the photos of the Mysties Stu :2thumb: not that i dont like the cits you understand :blush:
> 
> Richie


 thankyou kind sir.
Actually Richie its been a mental day again here,could really do with a bit of advice:
Could you give me a breakdown of auratus breeding behaviour please...off we go....i'm trying to sort out whether we have two boys and a girl or the opposite,first clue more eggs today (biggest clutch so far 9) last ones laid last thursday,can one lass do that in 5 days? 2nd clue either Zorro is a girl or we have 2 boys another calling while he was in full view,but facing away, i would have totally sworn that i saw him call a good while back but at the time he was facing away,and this call is so hard to placeI am now doubting it.
We only see the really shy frog at egg time,and fleeting glimpeses as we enter the room.All 3 frogs seem to be envolved in egg laying,we have seen Zorro and the invisable one sat supposedly guarding eggs,today Z and the invisable one were in the can prior to eggs Z on top of the other(ha thats a feat right there), although the invisable one bolted when we entered the room we snuck up onit later on its own in the can.We have also seen Z and the dark one in a can together. Mate can one actually see a physical sign of an auratus calling like one can with leucs vibrating and mysties swelling and vibrating if the frog is facing away.This is doing our heads in as we cannot despite our best endevours sort out whats exactly going on. Of course we are treading carefully as the invisable one is so shy so are letting them have their space,which is why i'm asking not just doing the usual obsevation thing and patiently watching,and we are getting good results.
any thoughts mate sorry if its a bit jumbled,just trying to get across as many facts as possible
thanks in advance kiddo,got all them vivs sorted yet? you all good mate.
ha old slow coach sqeexed 2 more through the water test today,so can start work on another low deep auratus tank and another 50(er don't know what for though:bash:am tired and lost:lol2 
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> Well i/we have to say you are (still) providing us with an outstanding project thread here. :no1:
> 
> :idea: The reading has been informative with plenty of excellent tips and advice for all to utilise in their projects.
> 
> Lots of banter, humour and stories throughout to keep our interest in place. :grouphug:
> And, of course, DA ROOM is a wonderful achievement in itself. :notworthy:
> 
> i would have to say, they must be some of the best provided and cared for critters to be kept in captivity; *commendable*.
> 
> You may even start reaping some of the rewards of your endeavours by the selling of the "latter staged frothy coffee tads"* from the breeding success you have managed to initiate.
> 
> So, to you, your good lady and all the critters, here's hoping everything turns out for the best.
> 
> good luck
> :cheers:
> nic
> 
> :devil: *kudos goes to first to de-cipher, fully mind you :whistling2:


 Hey mate,thats really nice,Nic, i can't even say latter staged frothy coffee tads,i've just tried twice,no alcohol either,just some tea:blush:...fink i understood the rest though:bash:
Ha funnily enough mate i was thinking about you earlier: as i said to Richie all hell breaking out here today,all older frogs calling,auratus on the egg laying path mystie male jumping at the females calling his head off, trying to get laid:lol2:and also little leucs shouting at each other was sat watching and trying to work out how the hell i can get a decent recording sorted,trouble is my normal recording thingy has around 60 leads plugged in the back and is attached to god knows what,but i just realised that i might just have a way around without using a mixer,as my preamp i can plug cans into and i might just be able to get away with an old tape 20bit adat and a long lead(ha back at ya de-cipher that) not forgotton mate but when its all happening i'm normally runningaround like the preverbial and.... well i just don't seem to have much time atmo,not forgotton though mate,ha or that sign
cheers for the words mate glad it aint boring.

i must really show you guys that fast woodlice thing soon in better detail,just need to get the harvesting wired oh and that brom in seed and...
Stu


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> thankyou kind sir.
> Actually Richie its been a mental day again here,could really do with a bit of advice:
> Could you give me a breakdown of auratus breeding behaviour please...off we go....i'm trying to sort out whether we have two boys and a girl or the opposite,first clue more eggs today (biggest clutch so far 9) last ones laid last thursday,can one lass do that in 5 days? 2nd clue either Zorro is a girl or we have 2 boys another calling while he was in full view,but facing away, i would have totally sworn that i saw him call a good while back but at the time he was facing away,and this call is so hard to placeI am now doubting it.
> We only see the really shy frog at egg time,and fleeting glimpeses as we enter the room.All 3 frogs seem to be envolved in egg laying,we have seen Zorro and the invisable one sat supposedly guarding eggs,today Z and the invisable one were in the can prior to eggs Z on top of the other(ha thats a feat right there), although the invisable one bolted when we entered the room we snuck up onit later on its own in the can.We have also seen Z and the dark one in a can together. Mate can one actually see a physical sign of an auratus calling like one can with leucs vibrating and mysties swelling and vibrating if the frog is facing away.This is doing our heads in as we cannot despite our best endevours sort out whats exactly going on. Of course we are treading carefully as the invisable one is so shy so are letting them have their space,which is why i'm asking not just doing the usual obsevation thing and patiently watching,and we are getting good results.
> any thoughts mate sorry if its a bit jumbled,just trying to get across as many facts as possible
> thanks in advance kiddo,got all them vivs sorted yet? you all good mate.
> ha old slow coach sqeexed 2 more through the water test today,so can start work on another low deep auratus tank and another 50(er don't know what for though:bash:am tired and lost:lol2
> Stu


Stu you really got to just relax and enjoy buddy we cant be stressing our selfs out at our age, anyway cant really tell you if youve got 2 males or not but 9 eggs is a big clutch from my experience especially for young frogs like yours, biggest i ever had was 7 and that was a mature pair of bronze giant. If you look at any calling auratus even from behind you will see his sides vibrate as he calls so if you didnt see zorros sides moving then i would assume it was the other one calling and zorro could well be a girl which would explain the large clutch of eggs and the fact all 3 are involved in the egg laying, i think thats what youre asking but im confusing myself now :blush: anyway as i say theyre doing fine youre getting eggs and eventually youll have them all hatching and be overun with them, mmm maybe i should have some of these i do like them was thinking of getting some more bronze giant but dont know my frogroom is filling up quickly and theres so many more i want :whistling2:
Talking of which it turns out my trio of p.escudo are 3 females by the look of it so im picking another trio up on saturday off someone on dw just got to make a big viv for them all to live in now
The viv building is mad at the moment Stu ive actually had orders for 34 vivs in the last 2 weeks and thats without any im making for creaks show,got 12 being picked up this weekend and one fully planted going to scotland by reptile courier friday, plus im really busy with work so really mad at the moment buddy, and i packed in frogsgalore because it took up to much of my time :whip:

cheers
Richie


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Stu you really got to just relax and enjoy buddy we cant be stressing our selfs out at our age, anyway cant really tell you if youve got 2 males or not but 9 eggs is a big clutch from my experience especially for young frogs like yours, biggest i ever had was 7 and that was a mature pair of bronze giant. If you look at any calling auratus even from behind you will see his sides vibrate as he calls so if you didnt see zorros sides moving then i would assume it was the other one calling and zorro could well be a girl which would explain the large clutch of eggs and the fact all 3 are involved in the egg laying, i think thats what youre asking but im confusing myself now :blush: anyway as i say theyre doing fine youre getting eggs and eventually youll have them all hatching and be overun with them, mmm maybe i should have some of these i do like them was thinking of getting some more bronze giant but dont know my frogroom is filling up quickly and theres so many more i want :whistling2:
> Talking of which it turns out my trio of p.escudo are 3 females by the look of it so im picking another trio up on saturday off someone on dw just got to make a big viv for them all to live in now
> The viv building is mad at the moment Stu ive actually had orders for 34 vivs in the last 2 weeks and thats without any im making for creaks show,got 12 being picked up this weekend and one fully planted going to scotland by reptile courier friday, plus im really busy with work so really mad at the moment buddy, and i packed in frogsgalore because it took up to much of my time :whip:
> Wowi didn't realise 9 was that big they are chucking them out mate,god help us when they all come good which they will!!
> thanks for the wise words mate
> belucky kiddo
> Stu
> cheers
> Richie


ha mate thanks for the reply,nah mate am totally chilled just always want to be able to learn more ,mate,i just can't believe it all so soon so its not a hardship thing its that being able to analyse the behaviour correctly,as we get to see so little as the one frog is so shy,and i'll gladly sacrifice the lack of observation to let then get down and dirty. Bloody mysties would bat an eyelid if i stuffed my head in the viv while courting i guess.
congrats on the escudo ha i clocked em and thought of you,might pm ya actually about something else,fantastic news on the vivs mate chuffed for ya don't know how ya do it,well actually er i do ,a decent workshop and some nice glass would help here lol,admiration though mate:notworthy:


----------



## soundstounite

Gutted!!!! ok this thing has always been about learning,and today i learnt the hard way...lost 2 of the 3 tads just hatched today,seriously i take full blame.Here's the senario so others,get where i think i went wrong.
3 tads hatched,first few days they are on the yolk so don't need much grub,so i don't give em much,but i left them together,and fed sparingly say last couple of days.As they were eating so little i didn't change the water. Now one of 2 things happened,either one tad died, yeah sure we are gonna lose a few especially with young frogs that will produce weeker offspring,and polluted the water, or i over fed and residual food polluted the water,which wasn't changed soon enough.So i think the motto from now is firstly split tads,even if they are gonna be reared together later,get them through that initial stage,then maybe go on to a more intensive cummunal type system as per Frognicks, plus do daily water changes for the first week or so even if later one is gonna rear differently, as one can then be sure that any left over grub wont have chance to pollute the water.
I know some of you will tell me i shouldn't be so hard on myself and truley i appreciate your thoughts ,but i (still novice,with darts ) really should know better,with all the years i have with livestock under my belt, so no excuses just :bash::bash::bash:,these damn frogs are really so prescious am kicking meself,dummy i am.
Thing is, he said phylosophising ya gotta learn from your mistakes...we all make em the guy that never made a mistake never done nuffin!! Just so bloody hard when animals are envolved so hard!!

ok self rant over, lesson learnt and duely passed on,i post on an american forum called dartden lots of knowledge there and guys chuck a wealth of experiance at me,and some wonderful ideas and out of the box ways of doing stuff,today a lady called Kristi showed me how she breeds her auratus which are stunning,in a paladium with a pond at the front,wonderful to see a metamorph just about to come out to land in the pond with its parent looking on fabulous....thanks mate!
Hopefully our very first thumbs are on the cards too we'll see eh?
Hell, you can see why everytime someone asks how i am my reply is always "hanging on".....just wish this time i could of done better !!
be lucky guys
bring it on
Stu


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Gutted!!!! ok this thing has always been about learning,and today i learnt the hard way...lost 2 of the 3 tads just hatched today,seriously i take full blame.Here's the senario so others,get where i think i went wrong.
> 3 tads hatched,first few days they are on the yolk so don't need much grub,so i don't give em much,but i left them together,and fed sparingly say last couple of days.As they were eating so little i didn't change the water. Now one of 2 things happened,either one tad died, yeah sure we are gonna lose a few especially with young frogs that will produce weeker offspring,and polluted the water, or i over fed and residual food polluted the water,which wasn't changed soon enough.So i think the motto from now is firstly split tads,even if they are gonna be reared together later,get them through that initial stage,then maybe go on to a more intensive cummunal type system as per Frognicks, plus do daily water changes for the first week or so even if later one is gonna rear differently, as one can then be sure that any left over grub wont have chance to pollute the water.
> I know some of you will tell me i shouldn't be so hard on myself and truley i appreciate your thoughts ,but i (still novice,with darts ) really should know better,with all the years i have with livestock under my belt, so no excuses just :bash::bash::bash:,these damn frogs are really so prescious am kicking meself,dummy i am.
> Thing is, he said phylosophising ya gotta learn from your mistakes...we all make em the guy that never made a mistake never done nuffin!! Just so bloody hard when animals are envolved so hard!!
> 
> ok self rant over, lesson learnt and duely passed on,i post on an american forum called dartden lots of knowledge there and guys chuck a wealth of experiance at me,and some wonderful ideas and out of the box ways of doing stuff,today a lady called Kristi showed me how she breeds her auratus which are stunning,in a paladium with a pond at the front,wonderful to see a metamorph just about to come out to land in the pond with its parent looking on fabulous....thanks mate!
> Hopefully our very first thumbs are on the cards too we'll see eh?
> Hell, you can see why everytime someone asks how i am my reply is always "hanging on".....just wish this time i could of done better !!
> be lucky guys
> bring it on
> Stu


Hey Stu
gutted for you buddy but dont beat yourself up unfortunatly these things happen to all of us the joys of keeping livestock. You do however need to get yourself a new tadpole tank set up keeping them in cups in my opinion is really the hard way as you should really change the water everyday as the type of food used to feed the tads pollutes the water really quick. I didnt have time with work and everything to be changing water on all the cups thats why i set up the waxmoth containers floating in a fishtank with filter etc it really worked a treat for me and as you say Frognick used the same. Ill be setting another one up shortly now my tincs and things are reaching maturity.
This is why pumilios are ideal for busy people like me as they do all the hard work for you and theres nothing like seeing a froglet in a viv especially if you didnt even know they were breeding :2thumb:
Anyway buddy you got to put all these little mishaps down to teething problems as i said before youll get there : victory:

be lucky

Richie


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Hey Stu
> gutted for you buddy but dont beat yourself up unfortunatly these things happen to all of us the joys of keeping livestock. You do however need to get yourself a new tadpole tank set up keeping them in cups in my opinion is really the hard way as you should really change the water everyday as the type of food used to feed the tads pollutes the water really quick. I didnt have time with work and everything to be changing water on all the cups thats why i set up the waxmoth containers floating in a fishtank with filter etc it really worked a treat for me and as you say Frognick used the same. Ill be setting another one up shortly now my tincs and things are reaching maturity.
> This is why pumilios are ideal for busy people like me as they do all the hard work for you and theres nothing like seeing a froglet in a viv especially if you didnt even know they were breeding :2thumb:
> Anyway buddy you got to put all these little mishaps down to teething problems as i said before youll get there : victory:
> 
> be lucky
> 
> Richie


thanks mate,I have no problems holding my hands up though mate when i didin't get it right,its important to me that guys see the mistakes as well as the wins,it wouldn't be right otherwise,not me, not who i am. There are extenuating circumstances acting here, but if i used them as an excuse t'wouldn't sit right with me. I screwed up nuff said!
Yeah i utterly hear you mate, on the multi tanktad thing ,the design is just being finalised in my bonce,suffice to say water filter is here and almost all other acessories too.
Buddy some Q's regarding this,i will work in square more efficient,gonna use pvc foamboard give me a ball park measurement for a tad sq,rectangle...would you make them all the same size? there might be other smaller stuff(ha there comming mate thanks for the advice there too:mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribblewould they do better with a smaller gaff.
I am going to use a black plastic plant type tray,any reservations?
Do you put your tads in straight away,i wondered if i should use cups for a few days then move tad to multi gaff.
The intention is to use a mesh floor for the tad compartments will the 0.4mm that i use for viv building be appropriate of would you use something a bit bigger am concearned that tad waste wont be able to get away.
Nick said i could quite easily have 20/30 tads on the go,i think that once we do get a proper method sorted and are firing on all cylinders,with what we will have oneday,i am gonna need way more space than that but this is alongway off so this will be a work in progress i think,especially with mysties on the go for 10/12months:whistling2:
And to counter that, i hear ya on the oophaga mate,you know how much i adore those histos/sylv,it would just be nice to have 20 vivs for them and watch eh:whistling2::lol2: a lottery win would help,but i would still miss these guys so much and the fumbling about with tads,erm and those azzies before i get lynched:blush: but she does know exactly what she wants so hopefully they will come soner and i'll be spared the gallows!
3rd tad not too good on arrival home after a 12 hour shift but water changed
So to round up yup i know tis livestock mate none of us get it all right all of the time but utterly will get this wired determined we are,thankyou mate for your wisdom you so readily bosh me with,as much as i try to get a drink back from ya you always leave me having to buy ya 2 back good on ya mate:lol2:some day we must have a proper froggy party
belucky kiddo
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

I've talked abit before about wood lice...how long they take etc.We keep dwarf white,a little fast moving tropical grey and recently got aculture of giant orange in,cheers mike.The G.O's will gradually be installed into vivs as groups of adults,they will be purely clean up crew,as they are to big for darts to eat but their young are not these will be feeding frogs and suviours to adulthood will add to the resident populaton,while i was reserching these i came across a couple of useful things,one we have just moved all the adults to a new culture,leaving the babies to carry on growing,hopefully we will beable to start more cultures of these monthly untill we have enough.2ndly this is a morph of our common woodlice but from spain i believe.My great friend Ron on here i know uses our native wood lice in his vivs and that set me thinking.
So i have come up with a dodge to get alot of little woods quick to feed our frogs on,i have mentioned it before but nevr really done the proper pic thing.
So the idea is make up a culture,we use a 3l container from morrisons a quid,and vent it,adding a bit of j-cloth for venting material








say over a 1" hole, next mix up a load of leaf mould pictured is oak and beech,with a bit of charcoal and some rotton wood bits,we used plum.








this all went into the microwave for about a min,probably less. On a side note i have also set up a culture of leaf littler just as it is to see what grows in their,never know i might just get some new springs.Fed just fishflake
Then i raided the garden for every louce i could find concentrating on adults carrying eggs,and popped in around 1/200...loads,we pop a bit of cardboard ontop this acts as a means of measuring humidity and is also eaten by the woods.So in 2 weeks ...NOT MONTHS i have loads of babies to feed the frogs








































Now as everything in the culture can be eaten by the woods,excepting the charcoal which i might of forgotton to mention,i don't even need to feed,but am experimenting with lightly spraying the card,then putting some fish flakes on it,which attracts the kids for harvest,as you can see they are already are eating the cardboard,and its ok but not ideal.
I am also using a pooter for harvesting,don't forget to add a bit of j-cloth under the lid to stop you sucking in woods,a few pics say it all
























Nice onions eh? we grew them:mf_dribble:
It takes time to harvest a decent quantity but it aint so bad listing to froggies calling sucking up wood lice,is somebody can tell me how the get the little buggers out easier please do and then this is a total winner.


----------



## soundstounite

Oh and got something gonna live in here soon:mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble:,but had to take a couple of handfuls of dwarf whites out it was just silly in there,this has been set up just shy of a year apart from the larger broms,which i stuffed in today,can't beat having your own plants to hand all reared and bred here again:blush:.
Oh and i'm not telling what,it spoils the fun...shhh Richie
























As i keep robbing the substrate,with the woods, i added some more leaf mould/litter whatever,but not cooked this time,i want the micro fauna,and topped it off with clem armandii ...nice
Stu


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> thanks mate,I have no problems holding my hands up though mate when i didin't get it right,its important to me that guys see the mistakes as well as the wins,it wouldn't be right otherwise,not me, not who i am. There are extenuating circumstances acting here, but if i used them as an excuse t'wouldn't sit right with me. I screwed up nuff said!
> Yeah i utterly hear you mate, on the multi tanktad thing ,the design is just being finalised in my bonce,suffice to say water filter is here and almost all other acessories too.
> Buddy some Q's regarding this,i will work in square more efficient,gonna use pvc foamboard give me a ball park measurement for a tad sq,rectangle...would you make them all the same size? there might be other smaller stuff(ha there comming mate thanks for the advice there too:mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribblewould they do better with a smaller gaff.
> I am going to use a black plastic plant type tray,any reservations?
> Do you put your tads in straight away,i wondered if i should use cups for a few days then move tad to multi gaff.
> The intention is to use a mesh floor for the tad compartments will the 0.4mm that i use for viv building be appropriate of would you use something a bit bigger am concearned that tad waste wont be able to get away.
> Nick said i could quite easily have 20/30 tads on the go,i think that once we do get a proper method sorted and are firing on all cylinders,with what we will have oneday,i am gonna need way more space than that but this is alongway off so this will be a work in progress i think,especially with mysties on the go for 10/12months:whistling2:
> And to counter that, i hear ya on the oophaga mate,you know how much i adore those histos/sylv,it would just be nice to have 20 vivs for them and watch eh:whistling2::lol2: a lottery win would help,but i would still miss these guys so much and the fumbling about with tads,erm and those azzies before i get lynched:blush: but she does know exactly what she wants so hopefully they will come soner and i'll be spared the gallows!
> 3rd tad not too good on arrival home after a 12 hour shift but water changed
> So to round up yup i know tis livestock mate none of us get it all right all of the time but utterly will get this wired determined we are,thankyou mate for your wisdom you so readily bosh me with,as much as i try to get a drink back from ya you always leave me having to buy ya 2 back good on ya mate:lol2:some day we must have a proper froggy party
> belucky kiddo
> Stu


So your going to make a tray with lots of little square boxes this is a good method ive seen this, infact someone had them for sale at Alans meet complete with the rub as well. i dont think they used a mesh bottom, but providing its rust proof it should be fine, me personally i would use plastic if possible. As for size you dont need smaller ones for smaller frogs :whistling2:but it would give you more compartments i suppose. I always put my tads straight in my system as soon as they were swimming around the petri dish i hatched them in but that was because i knew they wouldnt get throught the thin gaps in the waxmoth pots they also wouldnt get through your mesh so should be fine. You could always try different methods to see which works best for you, its all trial and error until you get it right.
You are going to suspend this tray of compartment in a tank or similar of water and have the fiter below are you. This in my opinion is a geat way of doing it saves loads of water changes
hope this makes sense Stu

Richie


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Oh and got something gonna live in here soon:mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble:,but had to take a couple of handfuls of dwarf whites out it was just silly in there,this has been set up just shy of a year apart from the larger broms,which i stuffed in today,can't beat having your own plants to hand all reared and bred here again:blush:.
> Oh and i'm not telling what,it spoils the fun.*..shhh Richie*
> image
> image
> image
> As i keep robbing the substrate,with the woods, i added some more leaf mould/litter whatever,but not cooked this time,i want the micro fauna,and topped it off with clem armandii ...nice
> Stu


Thats a nice viv Stu those xxxxxxxxx will love it in there :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Richie


----------



## stewie m

soundstounite said:


> Oh and got something gonna live in here soon:mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble:,but had to take a couple of handfuls of dwarf whites out it was just silly in there,this has been set up just shy of a year apart from the larger broms,which i stuffed in today,can't beat having your own plants to hand all reared and bred here again:blush:.
> Oh and i'm not telling what,it spoils the fun...shhh Richie
> image
> image
> image
> As i keep robbing the substrate,with the woods, i added some more leaf mould/litter whatever,but not cooked this time,i want the micro fauna,and topped it off with clem armandii ...nice
> Stu


whats the fern on the left i really like it


----------



## soundstounite

Cool...little mysties have done it again and we have pulled another clutch of eggs 5 this time 4 good,and one little auratus tad managed to hatch,from the eggs that we found dragged around the viv,so thats a little miracle right there,not strong but one never knows with these things,all our auratus tads are slow at first. I really am made up about the mysties,the first eggs must have been laid within a couple of days of them going in the viv,and i have been told that they seem to breed better in smaller vivs, so i really wondered if the 2 " cube was just going to be a great playground for them ,which i'm happy enough with,just good that they think its ok to breed there too. There seems to be a tie in with the male calling and eggs being produced,he was very busy last week when these must of been laid. I have a sneaking suspision that Aero our little male is not!! little guy ain't half put weight on of late,its amazing actually how they fatten and then drop,i was expecting the female to lay last week she was huge,but that can at the top that they have chosen is tricky to see into and i didn't spot the eggs!!
While writting this i have been up to look at them all,the little auratus tad hatched today is actually the stongest we have seen so far in its first day,mad, they all have been barely able to swim at first this guy is zipping all over the place,fairplay to the little fella. Ickle mate has started to develope his back legs tiny they are,he's a bruiser now very strong,so hope he gets past morph and we rear him/her,always gonna be special that one.
We noticed something abit strange with the luecs too just one of those little obsevations,i think we have 2 girls 3 boys most of the time we see the 2 lasses out in the evening or early morning, boys in the day,and the is a marked difference in the shape of the bellies,girls are kinda low slung going slightly in from the back boys just round. 'course i don't actually know the sexes yet so might be a nothing,ha might not, but we know 2 of 3 boys and they fit this. Time will tell.
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

richie.b said:


> xxxxxxxxx


Bloody scientific names never make any sense to me.


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> So your going to make a tray with lots of little square boxes this is a good method ive seen this, infact someone had them for sale at Alans meet complete with the rub as well. i dont think they used a mesh bottom, but providing its rust proof it should be fine, me personally i would use plastic if possible. As for size you dont need smaller ones for smaller frogs :whistling2:but it would give you more compartments i suppose. I always put my tads straight in my system as soon as they were swimming around the petri dish i hatched them in but that was because i knew they wouldnt get throught the thin gaps in the waxmoth pots they also wouldnt get through your mesh so should be fine. You could always try different methods to see which works best for you, its all trial and error until you get it right.
> You are going to suspend this tray of compartment in a tank or similar of water and have the fiter below are you. This in my opinion is a geat way of doing it saves loads of water changes
> hope this makes sense Stu
> 
> Richie


 cheers mate,very greatful yup all makes sense,i wondered whether thumbs or very young would benefit form smaller space yes and as you so rightly saw it also gives the potential for maybe more compartments,cheers again mate,its a lot for a novice to get your head round sometimes especially all happening so quick,tis me own fault this time last year i was stuie no frogs bloody mental how fast this is happening
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Thats a nice viv Stu those xxxxxxxxx will love it in there :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> Richie


 ha thanks dude i really hope so more specials eh? not ment to be easy to breed either,not too worried as long as they are good here,then we'll sit down and i'll have a chat to em in a few months when i know what the HELL is going on,must find out exactly which ones too,there are 2 locales apparently, will chuck some clues out later on :lol2:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> whats the fern on the left i really like it


 Hey mate Believed to be boston,its a do...er stew if its in a place it likes...not too wet,it puts out little runners mate so you get new plants popping up out of the cork,very cool.
Stu


----------



## stewie m

soundstounite said:


> Hey mate Believed to be boston,its a do...er stew if its in a place it likes...not too wet,it puts out little runners mate so you get new plants popping up out of the cork,very cool.
> Stu


i got a bosten but dosnt look like that might be yours is older and biger

mins not nere the side but its put out loads of runnrs and pretty much coverd a side


----------



## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> i got a bosten but dosnt look like that might be yours is older and biger
> 
> mins not nere the side but its put out loads of runnrs and pretty much coverd a side


 tis over a year Stewie,ferns are rummin difficult to id,i used to work growing the damn things and watched guys, my bosses, fighting over which was which, can you show me a pic dude? i have one that so needs dividing its say 8" high gotta rip it up soon will get 6 or so plants i guess i like my ferns in vivs,am working from the ground up ie spores on some natives i am just popping the gameteophyts stage into the cork,results are real good so far all taking will take a long time but a year or so should look really good.
cheers mate
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

We still haven't whitnessed proper mystie courship yet but here's our male betwixt calls playing the lasses,later he bebbed dowm in a real tight spot with the girl thats been laying i believe,one day i won't be running around like an idiot and will get all these observations sorted,yeah in my dreams!!
















Noticable that he was going between aero and pictued,she must be a he,wish i knew what i was doing,:lol2: ha experiance comes to those that wait
bring it on
Stu


----------



## chrism

Come on Stu, depress us further- whats frog 'X'?!


----------



## stewie m

not the best pics but u can see were its covering the side


----------



## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> not the best pics but u can see were its covering the side
> 
> image
> 
> image


 looking good there kiddo,well simply put if yours is boston then mine ain't and i suspect you are right!! Mate hopefully some clever chap will enlighten us both ha hopefully.
mate I'm too old to remember all these blummin plants i just know where they like to grow:blush: can't remember half my broms either tis me age mate...you'll see:lol2:
Stu


----------



## stewie m

mines just wired rather then the plant getting bushyer its just sending out lods or runners up sids instead


----------



## soundstounite

def different Stewie!
good day mad rush got home from graft clutch of auratus smaller than normal,only 4/5 and a 2 egg clutch of mystie,maybe a different lass? hell i don't know,time to bring on the noise ...NICE
bring it on
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

stewie m said:


> mines just wired rather then the plant getting bushyer its just sending out lods or runners up sids instead


 reckon we'll have to swap some mate?


----------



## Wolfenrook

You guys know that there is more than 1 variety of Boston fern right? lol

I have fluffy duffy, which looks like Stu's.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

After i finish wafflin' i gotsommit nice to show ya:whistling2: if i don't go kip first:lol2:
ya know there's an easy way to do stuff,and er a more difficult way,well i guess thats what i do.Usually i have some tiny niggles that have to be sorted,so there is often method behind my madness,the next thilling installment:blush: is i guess,exactly that the hard way wouldn't have it any other.
Over the last 2 weeks our little charges have given us this
SB auratus and Mysties are the culprits 








not that we are sad about this,over the moon we are,but if they all started to hatch and the room was all go, all full ,then i really think we need some mechanism in place to deal with that senario,initially i am gonna worry about the tads,which is where we are going now.
So my first design was going to be very similar to Nick's,but with a square grid, made form pvc foamboard,trouble is i want the capacity to spit my tad boxs up,to say,pop some in the greenhouse in water, to grow lots of algae on the sides be able to clean individually things like that.So i have come up with individual glass boxes,with a SS mesh base 2 sides long so the water will pass underneath,as it is filtered.
So the first attempt at this is a 25 tad set up. I have reservations about making one unit too big because of the inherant disease risk in shared water,also have these growth inhibitors to think on,but gotta get this monkey off me back first,and find out what is the route that works for us and more importantly our stock.
So we got ourselves a big old plastic tray the water will be filtered by an external unit,I may have gone total overkill here but once its all built i can find out how it actually runs,the filter is eheim.








Ya know i did me measuring,worked out a size that worked,and felt like it would give the kids a decent space,always important to me ...batteryhens and all that.... came out with a 25 box unit and set to work grafting it out.
Thats the point at which i said ok 25 boxes equals: cut 100 bits of glass,all edges sanded plus the mesh cut to size there's some work there,pvc,nah not a chance:blush::whistling2: ha not forgetting the method to stick it all together,here's our route
used 2 sheets of polystyrene to get a very close to 90degrees angle,stick half boxes together and one day and a bit later i guess we are halfway there 18 boxes up and lot of sanding to go plus all the mesh to cut to size.
poly being used to glue halves,note differing sizes of sides








and boxes glued, and being glued:the upside down ones








detail of one box so you get the short side and water underthis








and a couple of shots of the first box elfinito
















and before i get to the surprise thang here's Domino onit being a ladies man,i reckon every day now moreso that Aero is a lass,hmmm and gravid,Dom's response to her.... her shape ha bet its calling tomorrow:2thumb:
































back in a while after the shots have loaded:jump::jump:
seeya
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

our first little guys R.summersi,thanks Darren for a cool afternoon talking frogs,and this stunning pair of hurberts
















































































really hope we do well by these,they are such characters, one came right up to the front of the viv within an hour of being here as you can see and started munching baby woods that we see all over the cork,very cool,couldn't resist the photo oppurtunity
be lucky guys
stu


----------



## Row'n'Bud

Now those are absolutely stunning.... Great new additions!!


----------



## Nix

Stu you don't do things by halves do you. Stunning tad rearing tables.
Mysties are looking good. 

Serious congrats on the R.summersi they are awesome!


----------



## Wolfenrook

R. Summersi, I HATE you Stu! I'd kill for a pair of them, they're on my "dream frogs" list!

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> You guys know that there is more than 1 variety of Boston fern right? lol
> 
> I have fluffy duffy, which looks like Stu's.
> 
> Ade


 No i didn't Ade,can you educate me please,do you know their latin names? i have another that i thought was da fluffy:lol2: but this one probably isn't, but, its a lovely thing but trials so far have pointed to it not liking viv life ,so i haven't used it yet
cheers mate.


----------



## soundstounite

Row'n'Bud said:


> Now those are absolutely stunning.... Great new additions!!


 cheers Buddy they are such little characters.:flrt::flrt:
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Here you go bud, this page looks pretty good Boston Fern Production Guide, no pics but Google should be your friend once you have the names. They're cultivars, and I believe that each is a little different. 

That page though show really well that lots of people can each have a Boston fern and still have a different looking plant. 

I don't have my fluffy duffy in a viv bud. I tried a smaller one once, and as you noticed, it rotted away to nothing. My big one is sat on top of my Asian Golden viv, where it's thriving, sending out like long 'furry' strands that look sort of like hold fasts going in the wrong direction. 

Oh and those summersi are to die for bud.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Nix said:


> Stu you don't do things by halves do you. Stunning tad rearing tables.
> Mysties are looking good.
> 
> Serious congrats on the R.summersi they are awesome!


 Hey kiddo ya both good? thanks for the kind words Nix. Lmao i wish i did sometimes mate,my old hands are falling off from sanding glass and cutting,there is just so much of it,but I've being pushing real hard,will be back at it in a mo,am winning though 18 boxs built just a mountian of sanding some mesh to cut and a bit more glass work,reckon about half way there,or me....... glass half full: victory: 
Summersi look good this morn both full bellies and hunting
thanks mate
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> R. Summersi, I HATE you Stu! I'd kill for a pair of them, they're on my "dream frogs" list!
> 
> Ade


 Ha i'll take that:lol2: gonna be a frugal month kiddo,we shouldn't have really but we had to have!! I just hope we can do well for them we thought long and hard about whether we were worthy yet,first thumbs an all. Ade i thought they would be shy ,so far they are the total opposite,more interested in baby woods on the cork right up front of the viv.They aren't in the best spot for viewing though,which is a pain,down low to exploit cooler temps. I can see us sleeping on the floor to watch them. Having had them here less than a day i totally understand why you'ld kill for them mate,so much character in something so so tiny. 
The further we go mate the harder it gets to drag my self away from that room,and keep grafting,really want to loiture now gotta be real disaplined and focus,keep bashing away at it, along long way to go yet,but the frogs are spellbinding,i go up there for some little job and an hours gone by:lol2:
seeya mate
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Now you know why I love thumbnails bud.  Quite a few of them are really really bold little frogs, and lovely into the bargain. 

Ade


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

I love these guys as well Stu, now you have my two next most wanted frogs. Are you doing it on purpose.


----------



## richie.b

Nice one Stu im glad you got them, only because im rubbish at keeping things to myself :whistling2:

they look really bold so hopefully theyre more like vents and will be on show all the time, stunning anyway :2thumb:

i know the viv photo is in your thread somewhere but i havent got time to look for it so any chance of a viv pic, just for me buddy : victory:

cheers
Richie


----------



## Wolfenrook

Suppose I am the wrong person to judge if a frog is bold or not. My Sisa are supposed to be shy, they sit on the glass watching me.... lol

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> I love these guys as well Stu, now you have my two next most wanted frogs. Are you doing it on purpose.


 Absolutly Matty,at my age you get crap at decision making so i steal other guys ideas,what was you 3rd favouite mate i can start knocking the background up then got the viv part built waiting for ya to let slip:gasp::2thumb::whistling2:
lmfao
they are lovely mate thats for sure,i can see why you want.... there's nothing wrong with having good taste Matty.....apologies! both sat in the same brom leaf this evening so sweet, i just hope they haven't been stressed too much and we can do right by em looks good so far
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Nice one Stu im glad you got them, only because im rubbish at keeping things to myself :whistling2:
> 
> they look really bold so hopefully theyre more like vents and will be on show all the time, stunning anyway :2thumb:
> 
> i know the viv photo is in your thread somewhere but i havent got time to look for it so any chance of a viv pic, just for me buddy : victory:
> 
> cheers
> Richie


 Yeah i had heard about you and sectrets mate,nah only joking,very greatful for your help Richie, really am!!! they seem really bold and happy once they have settled,we will know more,my homework said much shyer than this so we'll see what happens,i guess.
And anything anytime mate,this vivs been waiting since last august i think...scarey init!!! Just popped a couple of broms in for them to create more of a top storey and had to remove a couple of handfulls of tropical wood ther was ruddy millions in there,i had to feed daily so many,so even though the frogs will take the babies i think there will be one hell of a stock of breeding adults that will keep them supplied...one hell of a stock!!!!
























there ya go Richie:notworthy:


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Suppose I am the wrong person to judge if a frog is bold or not. My Sisa are supposed to be shy, they sit on the glass watching me.... lol
> 
> Ade


 Ha,you intregue them mate,Ade how big are they now? and how old? you,ve got 5 haven't you? 
Do you know whether any other morphs of bassleri are here?
cheers mate
Stu


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

soundstounite said:


> Absolutly Matty,at my age you get crap at decision making so i steal other guys ideas,what was you 3rd favouite mate i can start knocking the background up then got the viv part built waiting for ya to let slip:gasp::2thumb::whistling2:
> lmfao
> they are lovely mate thats for sure,i can see why you want.... there's nothing wrong with having good taste Matty.....apologies! both sat in the same brom leaf this evening so sweet, i just hope they haven't been stressed too much and we can do right by em looks good so far
> Stu


Think my third favorite has to be pumilio nancy. You have got stunning frogs and I would be happy with all of them. Shame I just don't gave the room:devil: keep us updated on what you get next do I can want them as well haha!!!


----------



## soundstounite

Doh forgot
24boxes madewell cut and siliconed,around 10 sanded ,hands falling off,
got the panamas in their viv....OOORRRAAA absolutly fabulous to see them bouncing about together had camera but forgot to clean the glass so just sat quiet like and bloody enjoyed,prize moment was when one took a massive leap to a fern frond which i guess must have looked solid but it wasn't frog went striaght though...priceless. They look utterly beautiful under the lights with the plants,ha and 2 qt tubs outa da way too,very cool couple of days,well bloody hot but well ya know:lol2:
bring it on eh?
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Tadpol time:mf_dribble:
ok i have run out of glass for boxes for the minute so at close of play tonight am here








At presant we have,9 tads in the water,ok i'm not quite accurate plus 4 mysties out today








er and these auratus which i have high hopes on,even though our hatches have been appalling so far, this looks good for weds or there abouts but its close now and i think they'll be good,ha thats that scuppered then:gasp:









followed by this lone mystie around friday i guess








then these m's note the duff egg








and just laid super blues








so far the mystie eggs are really good am losing about one tad per clutch aruatus exact opposite about 1 hatch per clutch, this is only the second mystie clutch and now 7 tads although these don't look quite as strong as the first lot they numbered 3 and look like this
















and the auatus are all differing ages and in umteen clutches we have 5
here, the bigger ones in their highly sophisticated tupperware and glasses(spared no expense:blush








And as "Ickle mate" will have more legs soon...i so hope proper ones :bash:here's some of him,you can see his legs just about to pop up front
























We'll be so chuffed if we see no sls here especially on this guy,your first dart tad is a bit special i guess,
and finally,ahhhhhh









I've been talking alot about mysties with folks lately...am so glad there is a uvb light over those tads,not by chance either, was trying to help a mate out and ended up getting an education,suffice to say it seems mysties might need a bit more uvb than other darts,thanks "you" if you read this,proper greatful i am, really cool that trying to help someone else might have helped our little guys too or at least made me more aware that we were heading in the right direction 
c'mon Ickle mate
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ok we now have one tad with 4 legs and a tail:2thumb: are these front legs good though? and how long till the little guy is gonna leave the water

























Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

I'm no expert, but they look good to me, in proportion if you know what I mean?

Don't forget though bud, time now to move the little one to a sloped container, so that he/she can climb out of the water when ready, else it will drown.  Just a reminder.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> I'm no expert, but they look good to me, in proportion if you know what I mean?
> 
> Don't forget though bud, time now to move the little one to a sloped container, so that he/she can climb out of the water when ready, else it will drown.  Just a reminder.
> 
> Ade


 yeah am thinking the same too mate.
ha sorted the second bit mate have reared lots of natives so have this as a basics but its a very valid point for you to make kiddo and i guess someone will read this that doesn't know so goodonya Ade:2thumb:.
Tell ya what mate when i was little and had no one to ask for advice like we both do now no cultures cause there weren't any,in some ways things were much simpler,or maybe we just thought about stuff harder,now i try to evaluate the risks before feeding wild grub stuff like that,now i worry about sls then i just made sure those tads got a good variety of wild grub and algae and veg,now i worry about using rainwater then i just used it,it was what the wildfrogs got. There was something wonderful about how a little kid that really gave a damn about his little guys approached stuff,the simple logic... that in some ways i mourn the loss of,i bloody wish i could remember more of the stuff he(me) learnt back then. Tis so applicable now!! i reared so much back then all anurans,started so many little colonies,ha good old days
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

yeah i know off i go again but this is pretty cool huh:mf_dribble:
































nice way to spend a good while edging ever closer lmao one day i'll be able to afford a swanky big lens,now just gotta use the old fieldcraft
utterly beautiful
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

really prvilaged tonight to watch some full on mystie courtship,its been going on for a couple of hours now,and its not the usual female thats laying but the other one,not aero either bet that comes soon:lol2:ahh who knows. We are pretty much leaving them to it,but got a couple of snaps.Basically he's calling his little heart out she is following him around their chosen couple of film cans,she strokes his back legs with her front legs he stamps his back legs as a call and response it seems,every now and then they both dissappear into a little gap between the cans...not really big enough to fit one in, that of course could be a response to us being there.As this might be the case we have finished our chores and will leave them to it, very cool to see we feel utterly privalidged:notworthy:
ha bring it on
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

here's them pics from last night will stick all 3 up even though they are pretty much the same,eggs as thought this morning,well actually its all kicking off today,first day off for 2 weeks got up late:2thumb: Domino is stomping around shouting at everything,girls are fed up:lol2: and ignoring him,leucs shouting and bouncing around,tincs at front of the tank pleading starvation,summersi scaling the verts nailing little woods,and suberblues courting about to lay another clutch,pamamas still shy but clocked acouple of them picking up leftovers,very cool way to wake up,although the lights were a bit bright,mystie tad about to hatch i hope and ickle mate getting ready to be a frog
























donino at top,or front if you prefer
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Here's our prototype tad rearing gizmo up and running,although the pump is overkill and we were concearned about there being to much water circulating in the boxes the fears were unfounded i guess because of the small mesh used,but the water is definitly circulting each cup,when we added some tad tea it was in evry box in a few minutes so pretty ideal i think. That said i have reservations about the mesh sixe being too small,the only way to sort these design niggles out will be usage. My other big reservation is the actual plastic tray its been soaked with water changes since we bought it but its one of those intangibles,time will tell.
So basically tray and boxes up top,external filter below sat in a tray just as a precaution,and to create a drip loop for the power supply,water in from the tray to the bottom of the filter on left...filtered.... back to tray tray via a spray bar on the right








detail of tray and boxes









Last,but not least "Ickle mate" slightly shorter of tail bit stronger front legs,body shape changing,and really exciting more colour showing,utterly cool this bit,miracles are here it seems,don't matter how many times i will see this,and its actually Shaz's first, this process will always utterly astound me









bring it on
Stu


----------



## Row'n'Bud

The little guy seems to be coming along nicely.....won't be long til he's out and hopping around :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Row'n'Bud said:


> The little guy seems to be coming along nicely.....won't be long til he's out and hopping around :2thumb:


 Amen to that
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

second auratus viv,60x60x40high notes taken from the panamas and super blues have inflenced this design.plus the desire for a rocky outcrop for their gaff coupled with lots of LL. seem quite a few habitat pics like this for these guys. The notes say plenty of hiding at the back where i can still spot em: victory:,but they think i can't:whistling2:.
So here are the first tentative steps towards this,rocks carved as before with a very very expensive broken hacksaw blade taped to protect me mitts,and boshed with the heat gun...OUTSIDE!!!
























and pretty close to the viewing angle








and a bit of detail








seeya Stu


----------



## soundstounite

"OMG what the hell is out there,I'm not really sure about this at all,my whole life's gone wrong....someones stole me ruddy tail,I've got these weird things sticking out me sides that flap about...and I can't controll em. I was bloody fine as a blob of jelly with a tail too. What the hell did i do to deserve this?"










don't worry ickle mate we got your back
Stu






:lol2::lol2::lol2:


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

That is awesome Stu, congratulations:2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> That is awesome Stu, congratulations:2thumb:


 It gets better...that was yesterday,how ya doing matty?
How's this for utterly beautiful
unbelievably gorgeous
scarey tiny
May I present our very first dartfroglet,first tad
a big OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
For ...wait for it:gasp:

ICKLE MATE
bloody get in:jump::jump::jump::jump::jump:
:welcome:









Now thats something that won't ever happen again,you only get one first dartfroglet,yeah there will be more but this is special as he goes through each stage the more i want him to grow into a big healthy dart and the furthur we go the more i wish i knew just a little bit more,
supercool eh?
Stu


----------



## phelsumaman

Very cool :no1: I am very jealous, seriously you deserve it. Enjoys the fruits of your labour Stu

Ben


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

soundstounite said:


> It gets better...that was yesterday,how ya doing matty?
> How's this for utterly beautiful
> unbelievably gorgeous
> scarey tiny
> May I present our very first dartfroglet,first tad
> a big OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
> For ...wait for it:gasp:
> 
> ICKLE MATE
> bloody get in:jump::jump::jump::jump::jump:
> :welcome:
> image
> 
> Now thats something that won't ever happen again,you only get one first dartfroglet,yeah there will be more but this is special as he goes through each stage the more i want him to grow into a big healthy dart and the furthur we go the more i wish i knew just a little bit more,
> supercool eh?
> Stu


That is awesome Stu, really happy for you!!!

Yeah I'm good thanks, hope you and Shaz are good.


----------



## soundstounite

phelsumaman said:


> Very cool :no1: I am very jealous, seriously you deserve it. Enjoys the fruits of your labour Stu
> 
> Ben


 cheers Ben...big day this ,but the massive thing is good strong legs GETIN,i have a niggle that the guys aren't going to let me chill much.... eggs appearing.... eggs hatching.
very cool Ben you'll see for sure 
thanks kiddo

Actually guys the speed of the morph has stunned me legs popped last thursday,the next week has been full of almost daily changes,initially mainly colour,then drastic head and followed by body changes,i would say nearly all the tail absorbtion in the last 2 1/2 days. Fabulous to watch awsome how quick the colour has come in, i thought that the markings would appear much earlier,i susspected that this little guy would resemble the dark one,but it is definitly gonna carry alot of blue
seeya
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> That is awesome Stu, really happy for you!!!
> 
> Yeah I'm good thanks, hope you and Shaz are good.


 chuffed Matty I'm good Shaz has been cheered up no end by that little chap up there,
Ahh mate i'm so chuffed about good legs,rock'n'roll
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

WOOOT!!!! That's awesome Stu! Grats bud, seriously please for you.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> WOOOT!!!! That's awesome Stu! Grats bud, seriously please for you.
> 
> Ade


 knew ya would be bro such a relief to have good legs,all go here mate hows your brood comming,
thanks mate so purdy aint he
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

It's not bud, to be blunt. Pretty sure my French Guyana vents have tads, but they have seriously hidden them. My last remaining Rio Napa vent tad fell victim to that bad heat wave we had last week, temps hit 33 degrees for the poor little one, and he just couldn't cope.  I need to get a properly filtered tadpole rearing system going and then, more water should cope with high temps better.

Still, I'll get there eventually. Planning more pums, plus turns out my larger citronella is a male (finally saw his front toes) so got a pair there, which means 2 vivs for tincs/auratus from frog day, not just one.  So not all bad news here.

Oh and yeah, he/she is a lovely little thing.

Ade


----------



## MARK.D

Congrats Stu!! The first of many. :2thumb:


----------



## richie.b

Orr look Stu and Shaz Ickle mate is all growed up :notworthy:

pleased for you both but dont expect that feeling to go away with the others it never does know matter how many you get, even if the first one is just that little bit special :2thumb:

Richie


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> It gets better...that was yesterday,how ya doing matty?
> How's this for utterly beautiful
> unbelievably gorgeous
> scarey tiny
> May I present our very first dartfroglet,first tad
> a big OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
> For ...wait for it:gasp:
> 
> ICKLE MATE
> bloody get in:jump::jump::jump::jump::jump:
> :welcome:
> image
> 
> Now thats something that won't ever happen again,you only get one first dartfroglet,yeah there will be more but this is special as he goes through each stage the more i want him to grow into a big healthy dart and the furthur we go the more i wish i knew just a little bit more,
> supercool eh?
> Stu


 Awesome! Is he/she eating yet? If so, what? hard to tell from the pic how big it is, but I'm guessing *minute*!


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> It's not bud, to be blunt. Pretty sure my French Guyana vents have tads, but they have seriously hidden them. My last remaining Rio Napa vent tad fell victim to that bad heat wave we had last week, temps hit 33 degrees for the poor little one, and he just couldn't cope.  I need to get a properly filtered tadpole rearing system going and then, more water should cope with high temps better.
> 
> Still, I'll get there eventually. Planning more pums, plus turns out my larger citronella is a male (finally saw his front toes) so got a pair there, which means 2 vivs for tincs/auratus from frog day, not just one.  So not all bad news here.
> 
> Oh and yeah, he/she is a lovely little thing.
> 
> Ade


 Ahh dude thats a real shame, its not all straight foward this game thats for sure,gutted for ya buddy,its ,so thrilling this last bit mate i want everyone to experiance this,and i 100% know damn well it will happen for ya mate, tis just time thats all.
We got clobbered this morning: i lost 2 of the tads we hatched yesterday afternoon,there were 4 eggs good,3 hatched one didn't look like it was going to get out,so i removed the 3 good tads to a separate glass,with a tiny bit of the eggs mass,more because it came with one tad,but i thought it would be fine as many tads actually eat the eggs. Of course i made a cock up before that cost us 2 tads,that i beat the hell out of myself for,but i thought that in fresh water they would be fine together overnight,especially as i had separated them from anything bad,not so. Maybe one died in the night and took out the other by poluting the water,its warm water and a tiny quantity, so ideal for this senario. Lesson now totally driven home, i shall now split tads as they hatch.Its a pain going through this learning curve,i am not being quite as hard on me this time because i had made the moves to safeguard, just needed a step furthur,i thought i had it covered. As above lesson learnt,and a good one for others to know of!!! Apart from these 2 slips tad viability is good so far,no other losses,even a couple that i thought for sure wouldn't make it past the first couple of days are going well........SO FAR
Stoked about your cits mate thats great news,we are having similar thoughts about ours to be honest,we have a great size difference, though, so am hoping the larger is the lass she is the one thats supposed to be a girl. The said to be male had a set back,as you know, so its possible the size difference could be down to this,lets hope its not!! 
ha before you know it a little guy will crawl our of a brom and be staring at ya:2thumb: and being a french guyana vent your gonna say OMG...better get a magnifying glass,it'll be ruddy microscopic:mf_dribble:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

MARK.D said:


> Congrats Stu!! The first of many. :2thumb:


 Cheers Mark,ya both ok?
Well the brood is slowly getting larger,providing we can get this little guy going/feeding ok then we have a method for the auratus at least,the next real big hurdle will be morphing a mystie out,i know guys have struggled with this,i have thoughts why and hope we have it covered,but its down to the long wait now,
thanks for the reply mate
regards
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Orr look Stu and Shaz Ickle mate is all growed up :notworthy:
> 
> pleased for you both but dont expect that feeling to go away with the others it never does know matter how many you get, even if the first one is just that little bit special :2thumb:
> 
> Richie


 Cool in it Rich,nah of course the wonder WILL always be there,its awsome to watch,it will never become ordinary,like yourself, this started as a kid,it aint changed,just got more colourful:mf_dribble:Yup he is that bit special always will be, evenmoreso if we get him BIG,fingers crossed mate
thanks kiddo
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Awesome! Is he/she eating yet? If so, what? hard to tell from the pic how big it is, but I'm guessing *minute*!


 Not seen him feed Ron yet,but first 24 he'll be on the tail i guess probably more,its a bit tricky cause auratus are a bit jumpy so am playing it as cool as i can.Size is difficult aprox 1cm,but you could give or take on that, by a bit!!
Intended grub: springs,put just a few mels in just in case,he's capable,and some white wodlice babies, am guessing he'll nail quite a few mites too. We going to pay alot more attention to this over the next few days,the parents are very strong athletic killing machines,moreso than any of the other frogs we have so far,i hope he's inherited this trait. Special thing to see mate,one of those moments where ya forget about all the other stuff and just go WOW,just a shame it was followed by this morning!! tis life i guess
regards
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

So, Stu, when you going to give pums a try?

Richie has gotten me hooked on them now, and I hear there will be some at Frog Day again. I love how they look, how some of them are super bold, and that you don't have to mess around raising their tadpoles!!!! Ok, raising the young is harder, but I reckon there are means and ways of doing this. 

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> So, Stu, when you going to give pums a try?
> 
> Richie has gotten me hooked on them now, and I hear there will be some at Frog Day again. I love how they look, how some of them are super bold, and that you don't have to mess around raising their tadpoles!!!! Ok, raising the young is harder, but I reckon there are means and ways of doing this.
> 
> Ade


 When we get there i guess mate...their first viv is running, they'll be the cem(red/polymorphic) basti,i've also got another tank in mind for them,but not sure which morph,as there are so many colours inside the cematary morph we might just have 2 unrelated tanks of these,difficult choice this.But i know that the little jaguars,i call em are comming here,when we eventually find the frogs and are ready,am really cool with where we are at mate ,frogs have only been here since feb 25th,we have only just got the sumersi,have 5 morphs from 4 species and 2 chucking eggs at us more frequent than weekly,so although i hanker after more and the room will be filled of that i am utterly sure,i'm not really rushing,its an utter blast mate just now. My slow old ways are gradually getting us there. I still have an emense amount of graft ahead,but the breeding kicking in has slowed things somewhat,as i try to fathom this and hammer down some methodlogy to this rearing lark. I'm nearly sorted on this tad gizmo just fitting out some lighting for it. once thats under control my main goal is to try and get a few more vivs sorted out before it gets cold and just maybe get the last rack built. I really like having the luxary of playing with a tank for a while before frogs go in,so i guess by frogday we might know more :mf_dribble::lol2: time will tell mate, but for sure Richie has converted us too its just a when not a maybe
be lucky dude
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> It's not bud, to be blunt. Pretty sure my French Guyana vents have tads, but they have seriously hidden them. My last remaining Rio Napa vent tad fell victim to that bad heat wave we had last week, temps hit 33 degrees for the poor little one, and he just couldn't cope.  I need to get a properly filtered tadpole rearing system going and then, more water should cope with high temps better.
> 
> Still, I'll get there eventually. Planning more pums, plus turns out my larger citronella is a male (finally saw his front toes) so got a pair there, which means 2 vivs for tincs/auratus from frog day, not just one.  So not all bad news here.
> 
> Oh and yeah, he/she is a lovely little thing.
> 
> Ade


 I know i've replied once already Ade but,i need to add that ,because the water body is so small in these tad glasses and i had concearns about the tads temperatures varing too much,i took a simple step to try and prevent this,i stood the tad glasses in 3L tupperwares,and then half filled the tupperwares with water,in the hope that this would moderate temperature variations. I woke this morning thinking of your loss and how easily that could have been us!! Just maybe that simple dodge,almost subconsious,saved our tads from a similar fate during the heat wave. I'm really pleased with how the room has perfomed during the extremes,especially through the day with all those lights running,even over the tads,i consider us very lucky not to have experianced the same loss as yourself,
regards
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

here's the auratus viv with the rocks covered in rockoflex,since that i've just finished some more to add predominantly to the sides,i guess you'll see them later on,hopefully the rocko will be dry enough to apply epoxy to tomorrow with the rest








Her's the tad gizmo with its lighting bracket,i feel it might be very important to have uvb over the tads,after all this is where the bones are formed...where all the nutrients have to be absorbed to facilitate this,ha, and we don't use vit suppliments here. Basically trying to do everything possible to prevent sls.
Just a thought does anyone else reading this feed there tads live grub? Funny is it not that the adults wont look at a dead thing,and yet because the tads will graze live food is pretty much omitted from their diet. Tis amazing to watch a tad take out a blood worm,they are like little sharks,i'd lay odds most guys would be surprised by how varacious they are,normally they just potter about, but a hungrey dart tad and a bit of live grub is a sight worth seeing!!!
Set up complete......... for the mo.:lol2:
















Ickle mate seems good,haven't seen feeding but it looks like he has a full belly,and damn me he's got a turn of speed
seeya
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Just to back up what i was rabiting about,here's a few pics of the sharks at feeding time. For those that don't know the mystie tadpols are much lighter in colour than the auratus tads








































I'd like to add that no bloodworms were harmed during these photos...although some were eaten:gasp:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Well the ups and downs,here are the rocks,carving good but not enough pigment in the top coat of dust,so yeah they are ok but i wanted better,the photos are pre wash and scrub,they look a bit better post.My mate said they look cool,as he watched me installing them in the viv,ha Stu's not convinced,i'll get some photos up of where i am at tomorrow.... by the time i'd played tads t'was 10pm. On the subject of tads,the rearing system was stripped out totally today,i put in some oakleaf tad tea,which must have had some duff leaves in,it left an awfull film on the water,tad ok and moved,strip down sorted and back warming up...ruddy pain!!!
Got a batch of auratus tads hatching,this time i am pulling them as they hatch,one died overnight...but this time didn't take any others with it...I'm learning!! This paticular clutch of eggs is slightly different in that the tads are very different sizes,not seen this before.Maybe there is something else going on thats causing this loss at hatch point,this is definately our week point so far. After they are past this its going well. Ha Ickle mate's good,showed him to my friend,Ickle mate didn't approve promptly jumped a good 8/10" and dissappeared, under some leaves, astounding!!...5 days old unreal!!!!!! 
Da rocks...hmmmm
















seeya
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

we have all the rcoks in and background complete,but yet to load pics,here's a taster








and abit of detail








thought it might be cool to have a room shuffty and a quick peek at how da vivs are lookin' init.I've focused on the bits fo rack with tanks in as i ain't clearing up for you 'orrible lot:Na_Na_Na_Na:



























dem ruddy vivs


































































































and tad central while i sort out el gizmo,actually i still think i will use glasses for the first couple of weeks








Ha was up at 1pm splitting tads from the latest auratus hatch as each hatched i split it,for some reason this hatch was very slow and staggered,with quite a size difference in the actual tads,one died early on...but this time didnot take any others with it,so far the 5 are ok,if they all go through tonight then i have a good chance until matamorphosis, that is...OORRAA well chuffed,really need to get the rearing system into use soon as morrissons are getting short on glasses,if the eggs laid in the last couple of weeks hatch well ,we'll be snookered
getting there eh
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

Hmm, looks a bit scruffy...:lol2::lol2::lol2:

It's fab to see how the tanks are coming along :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Hmm, looks a bit scruffy...:lol2::lol2::lol2:
> 
> It's fab to see how the tanks are coming along :2thumb:


 Ha thats cause i'm aLOT scruffy,always makes me smile Ron how people judge a scruffy hurbut like me:lol2: ha can't judge a book by its cover to old to give a damn now:2thumb:
Thanks for the words on the tanks,one day i'll be orginised...honest:blush::mf_dribble:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Here's a coupe of shot of that auratus tank from a couple of days ago








and the viewing angle








finished up today in da rack, properly lit just waiting for silicone to finish curing so i can hook up the drainage and pop in the doors and start getting things wet








You haven't seen much of these guys but they are starting to settle now, shots with out the doors are not possible yet, but they are comming out more all the time, i don' see them as green neither does Shaz but they are still utterly beautiful
dem specials from panama 




































Ah well i try!! lost 3 of those tads i moved late the other day,as i noted there was a great difference in size as they hatched,so maybe that had something to do with it,or maybe i moved them too soon,was stoked 'cause thought i had it sorted but not so it appears....BOLLOX.Hard sometimes being THIS honest and knowing a couple of hundered folks will read it and 2 might say sommit,but thats forums i guess. Ha but don't have time to even think about a downer because the frogs are not letting up,within hours of pulling a little dead guy that i thought i had done enough for...... BANG the next lot have started hatching 2 little dere i say strong mysties are out...GETIN....maybe 4 more to come,hell i dunno,and as they complete hatch there will be another lot of auratus to maybe break my heart again...so want to sort this, and get them 5 outa 5. Gonna start popping the older guys in the tad gizmo now,just letting the temps equalise. Ha and the mysties are courting,funny the big girl,(who blows up like a baloon just before she lays, lays around 4 eggs,her little friend whom is slim and tiny lays 6...WTF is that all about? Its the little lasses eggs which are hatching now...OMG one of her first clutches here,i best brace meself i guess 
Ha incase any one wondered,Ickle mate is good and already you can see where the markings are starting to change
never a dull moment for dartsters eh?
BRING IT ON
Stu


----------



## Jezza84

Incredible job your doing stu, this dart buisnes really does have its ups and downs. Very pleased to see you with darts and with young too. Hope all is good with you and shaz

Jezz


----------



## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> Incredible job your doing stu, this dart buisnes really does have its ups and downs. Very pleased to see you with darts and with young too. Hope all is good with you and shaz
> 
> Jezz


 Ello dude where the :censor: have you been:lol2: Thanks mate hell i was Stuie no frogs when we last spoke LMFAO,its slowly creeping along ain't it. Yeah we're onit mate,its a rush this ride,wish i could get these damn auraus hatches sorted but tis all so early,don't actually think it is us as the mystie hatches are so different but if things don't change soon might try sommit. Ha was a ruddy shock when they started laying,but its fantastic getting to rear stuff,what the whole thing is about really. The next biggy is gonna be morphing these mysties,i so hope we can get them right,just gotta play the waiting game,but we can do that...and some!:lol2:
Im cool kiddo...too much to do and not enough hours to do it,Shaz is struggling Jezz lota pain,her heads good though she's a tough cookie i just wish they could sort it out,2 plus years is enough of this! Froggies are helping though,and having little people around is real cool for her.
you still got frogs mate?
Better sleep meant to be me holiday but am still going in tomorrow to sort stuff good init:bash:
seeya
Stu


----------



## Row'n'Bud

Just got caught up here Stu.....don't know what to say other than WOW !!!!:2thumb:


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Ha thats cause i'm aLOT scruffy,always makes me smile Ron how people judge a scruffy hurbut like me:lol2: ha can't judge a book by its cover to old to give a damn now:2thumb:
> Thanks for the words on the tanks,one day i'll be orginised...honest:blush::mf_dribble:
> Stu


Duh! I was kidding- you *know* how impressive I think it all is! :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Duh! I was kidding- you *know* how impressive I think it all is! :2thumb:


 ha i know you were kiddo,i was trying to run with it,:lol2: difficult talking on the web, without seeing the silly sod your talking to,mate there was UTTERLY no offence taken,i thought it was funny. Ron i really do have a totally mad sense of humour,it keeps me sain with the job i do too. But its sometimes difficult to express it in web land,especially as my weekest link is the english language.
But unbeknown to you it was looking scruffy up there,there is alot happening in a tiny space,ha and bloody me in the midst of it,ruddy good job Shaz is here orginsing me.
Buddy don't worry, if mates can't have a crack on this thing,its a shame,my reply must have made you think otherwise, that was not intended,you've never met me...i REALLY am a scruffy bugger...sat here in trousers that are falling to bits:gasp::lol2:
be lucky bro,no harm done:2thumb::2thumb:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Row'n'Bud said:


> Just got caught up here Stu.....don't know what to say other than WOW !!!!:2thumb:


 Cheers Buddy, ha i just realised we are almost bang on a year since i started ripping up the floor,and clearing the room out,funny really i don't even know where i intended to be now. I don't really think about how long somethings gonna take,how much effort,just lets go for it,and then keep trying to do it as good as i/we can.It was never meant to be wow, or all the other amazingly kind stuff guys have said,this thread.It was more about us learning while doing and being able to pass that on to others. Nice though all the kindness we have been shown thanks to all on that score.:notworthy:
Your lot good mate? I'm off to play tadpols for a while,we talk alot to them,but they don't show much back,just kinda look at ya whistfully. Maybe the world in a little glass is a cool place,that is untill some sod (me) comes along and tips all your water out and then spins the hell out of ya with some new stuff:lol2:. 
seeya
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

wow,Zorina our auratus female has just laid a clutch of 14 eggs at least...the are 3 more at the back of the can which i will take as being the dark one's it was difficult to make out who was who in their yesterday but our big lass was definately part of the mating morrass. Strangely these eggs are very mishapen so might be duff,the embyos that is as always time will tell,might pop a pic up later for proof ...mad,must have been something in the air yesterday the mystie lasses well 2 were chasing the male all day, eggs laid this morning,
seeya
Stu


----------



## manda88

I just can't get over how incredible all your vivs and stuff are Stu, you really do have an amazing talent! Those rocks look real!! :gasp: Can you make a viv big enough for me to fit in please so I can live in it? :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

manda88 said:


> I just can't get over how incredible all your vivs and stuff are Stu, you really do have an amazing talent! Those rocks look real!! :gasp: Can you make a viv big enough for me to fit in please so I can live in it? :lol2:


thanks kiddo,always remember tis not just me, the silent Shaz has much to do with all this.... sweatheart of course we can build ya a viv....but the probs gonna be getting one big enough for ol Matty:gasp:, Actually i just missed out i think on the rocks,i know picky bast*rd,but thats how i am i guess,Mand,if i had the pigments i want then i think i could bull sh8t most folks with them, tis a work in progress,one day you an Matty must come here,then you can tell us what ya think,properly,not from some photo, lmfao,ya never know they might look ok in the flesh.
Manda thanks mate, at presant i'm living this stuff...utterly(tis me holiday) ...really appreciate the positives,good but long ol day
cheers mate
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

I think i've posted a shot like this before but hell i ain't gonna look through all this,i still haven't quite got the shot i'm after but this was our first viv,and way before we got frogs i said to me mate that bears resonsibility for all this,one day there will be a little leuc calling on here,by the time i get the camera little sod stops,one day huh here's happy just after he stopped








a bigger angle,nice when a design is liked by your frogs








here's a bit of Ickle mate so stunning,it has amazed us how quick the colour comes and how late on these super blues,our mystie tads are starting to develope markings already and they wont morph out for around ten more years:whistling2:



































and finally that big ol clutch of eggs








yeah i know,its remote but what happens if they all hatch:gasp:, staight off beginners thoughts is there is not a chance most of the embryos are out of shape has any one heard of an auratus clutch like this...should we be concearned in any way?
as always any thoughts welcome
be lucky folks
Stu


----------



## manda88

soundstounite said:


> thanks kiddo,always remember tis not just me, the silent Shaz has much to do with all this.... sweatheart of course we can build ya a viv....but the probs gonna be getting one big enough for ol Matty:gasp:, Actually i just missed out i think on the rocks,i know picky bast*rd,but thats how i am i guess,Mand,if i had the pigments i want then i think i could bull sh8t most folks with them, tis a work in progress,one day you an Matty must come here,then you can tell us what ya think,properly,not from some photo, lmfao,ya never know they might look ok in the flesh.
> Manda thanks mate, at presant i'm living this stuff...utterly(tis me holiday) ...really appreciate the positives,good but long ol day
> cheers mate
> Stu


Well then Shaz has a hell of a lot of talent too!!  Haha yeah too right, we'd need one about 10ft tall for Matt, don't bother with one for him just do me one :lol2: 
Those rocks are awesome, I was actually on the verge of asking you if they were real or not cos I just couldn't tell! The only reason I knew they weren't real is cos Matt told me, but then I saw them and was like no way, they must be real!!
That'd be awesome to come and visit! You'll just have to keep an eye on us the whole time or we might end up nicking half your tanks :whistling2: :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

manda88 said:


> Well then Shaz has a hell of a lot of talent too!!  Haha yeah too right, we'd need one about 10ft tall for Matt, don't bother with one for him just do me one :lol2:
> Those rocks are awesome, I was actually on the verge of asking you if they were real or not cos I just couldn't tell! The only reason I knew they weren't real is cos Matt told me, but then I saw them and was like no way, they must be real!!
> That'd be awesome to come and visit! You'll just have to keep an eye on us the whole time or we might end up nicking half your tanks :whistling2: :lol2:


Nah it'll be fine,you won't get em out without the sound of breaking glass,mindya,well have to watch Matty doen't sneak out with a mystie tad in his pocket:gasp::2thumb::lol2:
thanks for the kindness mate,been planting it this evening,ferns ferns ferns and well ya know erm some ficus,that little one from equador,not finished yet gotta play gametophytes:mf_dribble:,its comming though,we think,

seeya 
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

been playing need to see this


----------



## soundstounite

ha getin !!!
Stu


----------



## richie.b

Stunning Stu, nearly as nice as my blue jeans










sorry Stu just thought you would like to see them :whistling2:

Richie


----------



## KJ Exotics

Grrr, Richie grrr haha. Any more you know who wants the first lot ha.


----------



## soundstounite

don't be daft,corse i want to see them:Na_Na_Na_Na::2thumb::2thumb:,I've been learning photo stuff Richie,how to make a very small thing very big:whistling2::lol2: without buying a bloody macro lens,well chuffed .
your blue jeans calling /laying yet?Gutted still haven't heard little man call yet,although i think pic is the lass,i have some more pics for later on, of blue poeple. I gotta pm ya too :whistling2: at some stage i suppose:mf_dribble:.
seeya 
Stu


----------



## KJ Exotics

soundstounite said:


> how to make a very small thing very big:whistling2::lol2:


I understand mate, as we get older, this effects most of us, as richie will tell ya :lol2:


----------



## richie.b

KJ Exotics said:


> I understand mate, as we get older, this effects most of us, as richie will tell ya :lol2:


:lol2: nice one






soundstounite said:


> don't be daft,corse i want to see them:Na_Na_Na_Na::2thumb::2thumb:,I've been learning photo stuff Richie,how to make a very small thing very big:whistling2::lol2: without buying a bloody macro lens,well chuffed .
> your blue jeans calling /laying yet?Gutted still haven't heard little man call yet,although i think pic is the lass,i have some more pics for later on, of blue poeple. I gotta pm ya too :whistling2: at some stage i suppose:mf_dribble:.
> seeya
> Stu


Plenty of calling from most of the pumilios i just got and lots of courting from the black jeans bribri popa and cauchero but only calling so far from the blue jeans, have heard theyre not the easiest to get breeding. Ive got 3 pairs myself and im putting them in one of my new posh vivs that i will be putting on the website soon. Its to big for a pair and 2 males will fight whereas 3 males dont so much so its got to be 3 pairs and what a display its going to be Stu, these blue jeans are some of the nicest pums ive seen (sorry kj)
I also picked up a pair of import tinc alanis and patricias bloody huge theyre the day after Kim brought them over the alanis spawned and a week later spawned again. Ive just built myself a new tadpole system, you can see it on my website, also got azzies spawning as well so things are finally starting to happen
obviously dont need it when all the pumilos start :whistling2:
Looking forward to seeing whats on the next list of pumilios hopefully bastimentos as i would love a group of these also :2thumb:

Richie


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> :lol2: nice one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plenty of calling from most of the pumilios i just got and lots of courting from the black jeans bribri popa and cauchero but only calling so far from the blue jeans, have heard theyre not the easiest to get breeding. Ive got 3 pairs myself and im putting them in one of my new posh vivs that i will be putting on the website soon. Its to big for a pair and 2 males will fight whereas 3 males dont so much so its got to be 3 pairs and what a display its going to be Stu, these blue jeans are some of the nicest pums ive seen (sorry kj)
> I also picked up a pair of import tinc alanis and patricias bloody huge theyre the day after Kim brought them over the alanis spawned and a week later spawned again. Ive just built myself a new tadpole system, you can see it on my website, also got azzies spawning as well so things are finally starting to happen
> obviously dont need it when all the pumilos start :whistling2:
> Looking forward to seeing whats on the next list of pumilios hopefully bastimentos as i would love a group of these also :2thumb:
> 
> Richie


don't you be hurt by him Richie, we both know with age comes ability:whistling2:.Buddy where is the tad gizmo? had a look can't find. I dunno i'm hopefully goona get some bastis off ya,well one day, and ya sell em to yourself,is there no lengths that the welsh will go too!!!
Great news about your tincs mate, and can't wait to see these new pum vivs,real interesting what you said about the 2/3 males and fighting.
thanks mate
Stu


----------



## KJ Exotics

soundstounite said:


> don't you be hurt by him Richie, we both know with age comes ability:whistling2:.Buddy where is the tad gizmo? had a look can't find.


Now who has ability!!!
Other Glassware 

:whistling2:


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> don't you be hurt by him Richie, we both know with age comes ability:whistling2:.Buddy where is the tad gizmo? had a look can't find. I dunno i'm hopefully goona get some bastis off ya,well one day, and ya sell em to yourself,is there no lengths that the welsh will go too!!!
> Great news about your tincs mate, and can't wait to see these new pum vivs,real interesting what you said about the 2/3 males and fighting.
> thanks mate
> Stu


The tadpole system is on the viv page under other glassware, this was the first one i made for myself but the next ones will look better :2thumb:

the new vivs are not just pum vivs but vivs set in wooden cabinets in various colours comptete with stand, so that people can have them to match there funiture. Ill be doing the cabinets with empty vivs and also the complete package with cabinet viv fully planted with little waterfall, misting system heating and lighting for people who can afford it. Ive just had 2 delivered one arboreal and one terrestrial so will set them up for myself and also photo them for the site then people can see them and order them if they want

yer it comes in handy when you buy a lot of pumilios to sell on they come to me sexed and if i havent got enough empty vivs, which i didnt for 40 pumilios ill just put all the males in one viv and all the females in another much easier and this way i can just catch up a pair and put them together when a viv becomes available, sorted:2thumb:
Another thing i found out which i didnt know but will interest you Stu is all the bastimentos except salt creek will come to me mixed colours and it doesnt matter what colour you have like 2 reds for example they can still produce yellow or orange froglets, so you can keep all the colours together and breed them as it doesnt matter. So its another viv of different colour bastis for me i think

Richie


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> The tadpole system is on the viv page under other glassware, this was the first one i made for myself but the next ones will look better :2thumb:
> 
> the new vivs are not just pum vivs but vivs set in wooden cabinets in various colours comptete with stand, so that people can have them to match there funiture. Ill be doing the cabinets with empty vivs and also the complete package with cabinet viv fully planted with little waterfall, misting system heating and lighting for people who can afford it. Ive just had 2 delivered one arboreal and one terrestrial so will set them up for myself and also photo them for the site then people can see them and order them if they want
> 
> yer it comes in handy when you buy a lot of pumilios to sell on they come to me sexed and if i havent got enough empty vivs, which i didnt for 40 pumilios ill just put all the males in one viv and all the females in another much easier and this way i can just catch up a pair and put them together when a viv becomes available, sorted:2thumb:
> Another thing i found out which i didnt know but will interest you Stu is all the bastimentos except salt creek will come to me mixed colours and it doesnt matter what colour you have like 2 reds for example they can still produce yellow or orange froglets, so you can keep all the colours together and breed them as it doesnt matter. So its another viv of different colour bastis for me i think
> 
> Richie


Tad system looks good mate,how much does the tray weigh? Ha and the super duper viv in a cabinate sounds well super duper:2thumb:.
Ha now the last bit i have read about,ha and there is currant debate going on about this across the pond. It appears that the polymorphic morph,comes from the cematary,some folks say that the polymorphism has been caused by other pums being dumped in the area and causing the variety of colours i think there might be some genes testing going on to sort this.But mate i dunno,untill recently i thought i had bastimentos sort of figured as far as morphs go,it all depends on whom says what ,unless one has gone there, i guess. To my understanding untill recently:whistling2: 3 morphs...salt creek,redfrog beech,and the polymorphic cem,which includes our much beloved little jaguars as WE call them. The tropical experiance morph guide shows 12 pics i think of the polymorphic ones...the colours that can be mixed, We have debated, Shaz and i, of having 2 vivs of these ya know the ones..50x50x60high,one already built... so we could have 2 mixed colour and yet produce unrelated offspring ha well oneday. Richie the furthur i go with this,the more i learn,the more debate and confusion i see with regards to morphs,its like being on a ruddy merrigoround.Its the dart hobbies' biggest mare, undoubtedly!!! I wish i knew all these answers where EXACTLY all these frogs come from,even just understood it all. To any hardcore dartster not mixing morphs is paramount,every novice like me comes across this from the off,yet i can't track any of me frogs.I can trace one group of my frogs to the most highly regarded dart supplier UE,and back one step...but absolutly no collection data,aahhh man and they get here and they aren't even the same morph:lol2:, we so need a paper trail!!!!
I'm one of those guys i guess that is blessed with being dumb as :censor: most of the time and very very occassionally stupidly bright,but even one my brightest bright day i can't figure theses morphs out fully,and despite 'ickle bits of info from cool dudes whom i respect greatly,i have yet to meet the guy whom has it wired and can utterly convince me on everylevel, ruddy 'eck i've become contentious,i better grab a nice cup a cha and have a lie down:lol2: 
best
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

My attitude to morphs and localities is simple (sometimes it's not right to call a frog from a certain locality a morph in my book, but you still wouldn't want to mix em). I do my best not to mix morphs that can hybridise, I take the word of the person I am buying from combined with images I have seen for comparison. Beyond that, in the words of Rhett Buttler, frankly my dear I don't give a damn. 

Beyond that, I am in this hobby to enjoy my frogs, it's my hobby. It's not my work. Yes I take it seriously, yes I don't deliberately mess up morphs (and heck, you all know how against 'hybridising' I am (although, strictly speaking crossing 1 tinc morph with another isn't actually hybridising, as they are the same species, it's crossing), or crossing for that matter. But I'm not about to try to track down paperwork to find out where the ancestors of my captive bred frogs came from. 

Don't get TOO serious about things buddy, as when you do it stops been a hobby and becomes a chore. 

Ade

PS. Half the time the reason morphs are so confusing as there is always some prat who decides that THEY should rename a morph that already has a name etc. lol Or you get somebody who sees a variation within a morph and decides it's a whole new morph. With bastis, I think something I once read puts things into place nicely, you keep salt creeks with salt creeks, you keep red frog beach with red frog beach, and you have fun mixing all the colours you like with those cemetary bastis as why worry? They're just as mixed in the wild, you're not gonna ruin them.


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> My attitude to morphs and localities is simple (sometimes it's not right to call a frog from a certain locality a morph in my book, but you still wouldn't want to mix em). I do my best not to mix morphs that can hybridise, I take the word of the person I am buying from combined with images I have seen for comparison. Beyond that, in the words of Rhett Buttler, frankly my dear I don't give a damn.
> 
> Beyond that, I am in this hobby to enjoy my frogs, it's my hobby. It's not my work. Yes I take it seriously, yes I don't deliberately mess up morphs (and heck, you all know how against 'hybridising' I am (although, strictly speaking crossing 1 tinc morph with another isn't actually hybridising, as they are the same species, it's crossing), or crossing for that matter. But I'm not about to try to track down paperwork to find out where the ancestors of my captive bred frogs came from.
> 
> Don't get TOO serious about things buddy, as when you do it stops been a hobby and becomes a chore.
> 
> Ade
> 
> PS. Half the time the reason morphs are so confusing as there is always some prat who decides that THEY should rename a morph that already has a name etc. lol Or you get somebody who sees a variation within a morph and decides it's a whole new morph. With bastis, I think something I once read puts things into place nicely, you keep salt creeks with salt creeks, you keep red frog beach with red frog beach, and you have fun mixing all the colours you like with those cemetary bastis as why worry? They're just as mixed in the wild, you're not gonna ruin them.


 ha good stuff kiddo,essentially i just wish i knew where the buggers came from,ha its never gonna be a chore mate, :lol2: it cirtainly ain't ruined my life that my camos are superblues,or my joy of keeping them, for sure if i said without collection data,and paper,i won't buy a frog,then we'ed both be frogless,but no harm in wanting that ideal,lmao tell ya what mate i utterly agree with the above RFB with RFB...SC with SC and have fun with the cems,tis fine untill a cem looks like a RFB An there my friend is the problem,i can't resolve it mate,i don't think our hobby ever will so yeah it is important to me and i think to our hobby,but playing frogkeepers watching 10 little tads doing a feed dance,which i just missed a pic of,just the joy of a little mystie running up to the glass and staring me down cause the others had been fed and not her,all those little froggy things are the joys of this,won't ever be a chore or work mate,too much bloody fun.
But i guess like yourself Ade there is a serious side to this,but never gonna go so far as to take the joy outof it,just ain't gonna happen,
regards
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

ha learnt a bit of digital photo stuff as you've seen,here's a spotty guy
ok lass








and a good few pics of the specials,the camera is lying slightly about colour they are even better in the flesh








































































heres tad setup occupied








and one of the tads doing the feeding dance,just before this alot of them were up top looked really beautiful ha silly sod but it did a lot of little fat brown ballerinas all spinning slowly as they noshed 








Stu


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite;8836442[B said:


> ]Tad system looks good mate,how much does the tray weigh[/B]? Ha and the super duper viv in a cabinate sounds well super duper:2thumb:.
> Ha now the last bit i have read about,ha and there is currant debate going on about this across the pond. It appears that the polymorphic morph,comes from the cematary,some folks say that the polymorphism has been caused by other pums being dumped in the area and causing the variety of colours i think there might be some genes testing going on to sort this.But mate i dunno,untill recently i thought i had bastimentos sort of figured as far as morphs go,it all depends on whom says what ,unless one has gone there, i guess. To my understanding untill recently:whistling2: 3 morphs...salt creek,redfrog beech,and the polymorphic cem,which includes our much beloved little jaguars as WE call them. The tropical experiance morph guide shows 12 pics i think of the polymorphic ones...the colours that can be mixed, We have debated, Shaz and i, of having 2 vivs of these ya know the ones..50x50x60high,one already built... so we could have 2 mixed colour and yet produce unrelated offspring ha well oneday. Richie the furthur i go with this,the more i learn,the more debate and confusion i see with regards to morphs,its like being on a ruddy merrigoround.Its the dart hobbies' biggest mare, undoubtedly!!! I wish i knew all these answers where EXACTLY all these frogs come from,even just understood it all. To any hardcore dartster not mixing morphs is paramount,every novice like me comes across this from the off,yet i can't track any of me frogs.I can trace one group of my frogs to the most highly regarded dart supplier UE,and back one step...but absolutly no collection data,aahhh man and they get here and they aren't even the same morph:lol2:, we so need a paper trail!!!!
> I'm one of those guys i guess that is blessed with being dumb as :censor: most of the time and very very occassionally stupidly bright,but even one my brightest bright day i can't figure theses morphs out fully,and despite 'ickle bits of info from cool dudes whom i respect greatly,i have yet to meet the guy whom has it wired and can utterly convince me on everylevel, ruddy 'eck i've become contentious,i better grab a nice cup a cha and have a lie down:lol2:
> best
> Stu


Tray doesnt weigh much, the whole units not that heavy only thing is the tray is as one and not individual like yours or my old system i used with polystyrene and waxworm tubs. This is just the prototype ill work on a better design when i get 5
As for the basti morphs i wont even bother trying to look into it my old brain is struggling now with whats already in there without adding more, anyway i quite like the idea of a mixed group of bastis just imagine a big group of all the different colours in one big viv, bloody lovely :2thumb:




Wolfenrook said:


> My attitude to morphs and localities is simple (sometimes it's not right to call a frog from a certain locality a morph in my book, but you still wouldn't want to mix em). I do my best not to mix morphs that can hybridise, I take the word of the person I am buying from combined with images I have seen for comparison. Beyond that, in the words of Rhett Buttler, frankly my dear I don't give a damn.
> 
> Beyond that, I am in this hobby to enjoy my frogs, it's my hobby. It's not my work. Yes I take it seriously, yes I don't deliberately mess up morphs (and heck, you all know how against 'hybridising' I am (although, strictly speaking crossing 1 tinc morph with another isn't actually hybridising, as they are the same species, it's crossing), or crossing for that matter. But I'm not about to try to track down paperwork to find out where the ancestors of my captive bred frogs came from.
> 
> Don't get TOO serious about things buddy, as when you do it stops been a hobby and becomes a chore.
> 
> Ade
> 
> PS. Half the time the reason morphs are so confusing as there is always some prat who decides that THEY should rename a morph that already has a name etc. lol Or you get somebody who sees a variation within a morph and decides it's a whole new morph. With bastis, I think something I once read puts things into place nicely, you keep salt creeks with salt creeks, you keep red frog beach with red frog beach, and you have fun mixing all the colours you like with those cemetary bastis as why worry? They're just as mixed in the wild, you're not gonna ruin them.


Nicely put Ade, and this is me exactly.
allthough ive kept amphibians of some desciption all my life ive never really gone into the science of things as im just not clever enough, not much i cant do with my hands but the brains not much good :whistling2:

Richie


----------



## Wolfenrook

I think we all have an area of the hobby wee seem to be able to grasp and do well with. Richie, you are a master with building those glass vivs etc! No way would I even try it, with my tremor there would be broken glass everywhere. You've also proven yourself in the past as pretty darn good at getting the little cuties to breed. Stu, you're another one who's good at making stuff, and it seems breeding. Other folks love to get their teeth into the science/nomiclature side of things etc, oddly for me I'm not as into that side of things as I was in my aquarium keeping days. For me, it's plants and lighting, and experimentation. Not scientific experimentation, but rather trying something out and seeing what effect it really has. That's how I originally found what I feel are the best combinations of lighting to promote plant growth, bring out colours and possibly help the health of the frogs as well. Then there are my experiments with using very dilute amounts of aquarium trace ferts once a month (my plants maintain much better colour for it), my experiment with a UK take on clay substrate, and my experiments with fruit fly media (how you reckon I discovered that honey not only helps put calories into the flies but also fights mould?  ).

That's where forums like this REALLY come into their own though, they bring folks like us, with different areas of knowledge and/or skill, and facilitate a sharing of this. Heck, more and more of my vivs were made by Richie now. lol They just rock! Considering my other vivs are mostly ENTs and one Rana, that takes some doing.

I know we go off topic a lot (like this here. lol), but seems to me that's because that's how our brains work. We have to get things written down as we think of them, even if it's going off at a tangeant.

Heck I still consider myself a newbie, but I've picked up tons from folks like Richie, and reading of your breeding successes Stu helps to keep me motivated.

Oh and love those pics, especially your mystie.  You seen how much the prices are coming down on them now? I thought £75 each was cheap at Frog Day, now DF has just sold some for £65 each! Mental.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> I think we all have an area of the hobby wee seem to be able to grasp and do well with. Richie, you are a master with building those glass vivs etc! No way would I even try it, with my tremor there would be broken glass everywhere. You've also proven yourself in the past as pretty darn good at getting the little cuties to breed. Stu, you're another one who's good at making stuff, and it seems breeding. Other folks love to get their teeth into the science/nomiclature side of things etc, oddly for me I'm not as into that side of things as I was in my aquarium keeping days. For me, it's plants and lighting, and experimentation. Not scientific experimentation, but rather trying something out and seeing what effect it really has. That's how I originally found what I feel are the best combinations of lighting to promote plant growth, bring out colours and possibly help the health of the frogs as well. Then there are my experiments with using very dilute amounts of aquarium trace ferts once a month (my plants maintain much better colour for it), my experiment with a UK take on clay substrate, and my experiments with fruit fly media (how you reckon I discovered that honey not only helps put calories into the flies but also fights mould?  ).
> 
> That's where forums like this REALLY come into their own though, they bring folks like us, with different areas of knowledge and/or skill, and facilitate a sharing of this. Heck, more and more of my vivs were made by Richie now. lol They just rock! Considering my other vivs are mostly ENTs and one Rana, that takes some doing.
> 
> I know we go off topic a lot (like this here. lol), but seems to me that's because that's how our brains work. We have to get things written down as we think of them, even if it's going off at a tangeant.
> 
> Heck I still consider myself a newbie, but I've picked up tons from folks like Richie, and reading of your breeding successes Stu helps to keep me motivated.
> 
> Oh and love those pics, especially your mystie.  You seen how much the prices are coming down on them now? I thought £75 each was cheap at Frog Day, now DF has just sold some for £65 each! Mental.
> 
> Ade


Amen to all that Ade,absolutly we all fire off each other...one has this idea another another idea,the pool of knowledge widens,and in the end the frogs win:2thumb: all different areas of expertise and learning different skills that we can show to others,and as you say its also inspiring when someone else gets a bit of a result,especially when you've been gassing to em for ages,funny mate i go both ways,i was so chuffed about you vents kicking off,and so down in the dumps when you told me things weren't so good.
Wow he didn't charge me that for aero:gasp:,but marc told me he was doing well with these. I would hope that the prices of our darts don't drop to low though mate,they need to be valued.I had a real bad experiance by selling dux to cheep,lady didn't value them,and didn't bother to shut them up,fox ate them first night...she came back for more and actually moaned at us,i tore her a new one!! But never sold stock cheep again,lesson learnt
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Here's a ruddy shock...ok tis a bit fuzzy but i'm not sure whether anyone else has seen this guy,He's the green goblin dad to our Ickle mate,and the rest.Gradually we are seeing more and more of him,so you see one does see auratus after all...............................................................................eventually:mf_dribble:

















Its great to be finally able to keep check on his weight,He's surprised me being so shy and yet so comfortable in his gaff that he's quite happily breeding away, his last clutch was that little bit stronger and another lot is underway now as i rabbit on: first is out...i wonder what kind of emotional turmoil this lot will put us through:whistling2: ruddy blobs with tails ,its how they look at ya that does ya in,especially mystie tads.

Guys i think we might have a few plants for sale,pm me for details,mainly ficus,all frog safe organic compo no sprays or anything nasty grown here no contact with frogs ya know the drill,i think we have too many,for me to get em all through the winter,and possibly some of our stonking red eyed wingless mels too,its just getting silly here. Richie and Ade got me thinking might build the odd viv for folks too,then i won't have to remortgage the house when we eventually feel we're ready for something erm nice,might even chuck some false rocks about eh:lol2h and just maybe the odd breadrack:mf_dribble:.Better raise some funds for frogday,give us a shout if anything is of fancy
take care ya all,don't get them frogs too fat
bring it on 
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> *Amen to all that Ade,absolutly we all fire off each other...one has this idea another another idea,the pool of knowledge widens,and in the end the frogs win:2thumb: all different areas of expertise and learning different skills that we can show to others,and as you say its also inspiring when someone else gets a bit of a result,especially when you've been gassing to em for ages,funny mate i go both ways,i was so chuffed about you vents kicking off,and so down in the dumps when you told me things weren't so good.*
> Wow he didn't charge me that for aero:gasp:,but marc told me he was doing well with these. I would hope that the prices of our darts don't drop to low though mate,they need to be valued.I had a real bad experiance by selling dux to cheep,lady didn't value them,and didn't bother to shut them up,fox ate them first night...she came back for more and actually moaned at us,i tore her a new one!! But never sold stock cheep again,lesson learnt
> Stu


 Yep, I can hardly count how much I have learned from this site- and I thought I more or less knew my stuff before!:blush:

The other plus is getting to interact with other animal freaks, of course- and even meet some in person!


----------



## Ian Young

What a fantastic thread:2thumb: ive lernt so much reading this over the last 2 weeks 

Ian


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Yep, I can hardly count how much I have learned from this site- and I thought I more or less knew my stuff before!:blush:
> 
> The other plus is getting to interact with other animal freaks, of course- and even meet some in person!


 Amen to that bro
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ian Young said:


> What a fantastic thread:2thumb: ive lernt so much reading this over the last 2 weeks
> 
> Ian


 OMG ...Ian its used to take folks 4 hrs,oh well:lol2:. The idea behind it it that a beginner sees stuff slightly diferent,i have knowledge in other areas of stock so,being able to share all my /our problems as we go,and the reasoning behind why we made this move is hopefully gonna be of help to others...that said mate do NOT take this as gospel question everything Ian,search for more knowlegde learn hard and slow,get it right and i promise it will come back and bite ya:lol2:,livestock always give back x10 what ya put in,which is why i have spent today trying to work out why i only built a gizmo for 25 tads,'im 47 and although all those close and dear to me keep telling me to trust my judgement i never will,I'm real chuffed this nonsense has helped ya mate,but run withit mate,so much to learn,
i hope your darts give you as many headaches :2thumb: as ours do
regards
Stu 
PS THANKYOU


----------



## Ian Young

soundstounite said:


> OMG ...Ian its used to take folks 4 hrs,oh well:lol2:. The idea behind it it that a beginner sees stuff slightly diferent,i have knowledge in other areas of stock so,being able to share all my /our problems as we go,and the reasoning behind why we made this move is hopefully gonna be of help to others...that said mate do NOT take this as gospel question everything Ian,search for more knowlegde learn hard and slow,get it right and i promise it will come back and bite ya:lol2:,livestock always give back x10 what ya put in,which is why i have spent today trying to work out why i only built a gizmo for 25 tads,'im 47 and although all those close and dear to me keep telling me to trust my judgement i never will,I'm real chuffed this nonsense has helped ya mate,but run withit mate,so much to learn,
> i hope your darts give you as many headaches :2thumb: as ours do
> regards
> Stu
> PS THANKYOU



Haha i no im such a slow reader :lol2: as much as they give me headaches it amazing how i started with 2 whites tree frogs 3 years ago and now having 5 different dart types and 4 whites.
ive even decided to rip out one of my tanks and give the foam and epoxy ago, epoxy day tomorrow :lol2:

again thanks for teaching me new tips with this thread, i will be following till the end :2thumb:

Ian


----------



## soundstounite

Ian Young said:


> Haha i no im such a slow reader :lol2: as much as they give me headaches it amazing how i started with 2 whites tree frogs 3 years ago and now having 5 different dart types and 4 whites.
> ive even decided to rip out one of my tanks and give the foam and epoxy ago, epoxy day tomorrow :lol2:
> 
> again thanks for teaching me new tips with this thread, i will be following till the end :2thumb:
> 
> Ian


yeah same as mate trouble is i have to read stuff over and over before it lodges,but eventually it does,good luck with your new build mate,i've chucked some stuff at ya elsewhere....patiently waiting for pics now:whip::whip::whip:



We are having some really slow hatches at the moment,have no explanation why,maybe something to do with the hot weather roughly when they were laid or the cool that followed i haven't a clue really,but for some reason both auratus and mysties seem affected,more vivs underway,tads seem well,we like playing tads,it wont belong now before more froglets turn up i guess 2 weeks top should see the next froglet.Ickle mate is doing well i think growing thats for sure.Found some elcheepo glasses at tesco today should relieve our iminant conjestion problems,hhmmm best go do stuff
seeya
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Here's that auratus tank at the start of planting,this is gonna take some time to get there,there's alot of baby home grown going on in this,and only ficus moss liverworts and ferns in the planting,plus a bit of rock slight of hand, which are not as bad as i first feared
as always head on and a couple either side

















ha i reckon the fern at the back corner will fail...not enough air circulation










and next to the panama viv for a bit more of the whole pic








course whats really needed is six/twelve months on here....are ya sitting comfy:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## onemanandhisfrog

Hey Stu long time m8, looking awesome as always :2thumb: stunned


----------



## soundstounite

onemanandhisfrog said:


> Hey Stu long time m8, looking awesome as always :2thumb: stunned


 good to hear from ya bro...ya good? cheers jon wish you could see all these tads and eggs an stuff,ahh mate its such a crack playing tads,this was a big deal for us mate we have chucked everything at it,but had no idea we'd be playing,get the tad outa the eggs with a teaspoon so early:mf_dribble: so we are equally stunned mate,starting to get a feel for it now, ha we are honing the bad egg removal with a turkey baster,sounds:gasp::gasp::gasp: don't it, but its real effective if you get it right,a lady states side taught us that,proper scarey.We saw some pics of her set up and what she rears...WOW....... man does that lass know something,jawdroppingly awsome,kinda gave me the confidence to have a go...well eventually:blush:
Gonna have some more front legs popping soon scarey huh,the first is doing well i think growing well,so it will be cool for ickle mate to have some,erm well ickle mates:whistling2::lol2:
good to hear from ya kiddo
thanks dude
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

One of the side shoots of doing stuff like we do is you get very very close to nature, so i'll propose a theory,mossies breed with relation to rainfall, (ok thats the profound bit over with well nearly:mf_dribble today they are back,the tadfood,good harvest..... lots of little lumps of jelly with tails a bit bewildered, but not all,some have already got wind and nailed everything,really chuffed to have this resourse back on the menu!! Tads like these once they work out what the hell they are swimming with.....ha i guess we both better hope they all catch on soon or this might come back and bite us....litterally:gasp: oh well we could just give em some nice freeze dried decapods....nah they'er froggie larvea,man made grub is ok but what they really want.... what they really really want is real grub. I guess its like,yeah we can have spam or !!! As always there are risks to feeding wild stuff,BUT there are also risks with what ya buy in a shop,us we'll take our chances,and our little guys too.A wiser man than i said that there are no proven benefits to eating organic grub,and he is welcome to his sprays and his chemicals,i'll take mine with the risks please.
What i'm trying to say so ineptly is our darts don't live in a sterile environment low level challenges will make them stronger,its what their immune system was developed for they can cope,our job is to watch the hell out of them and react when things get sticky and quickly too!!!!!but first we have to be stockmen thats the rub,you learn stockmanship by keeping,by watching,by seeing and above all by reacting. Never miss the oppurtunity to watch your animals,they will tell ya when sommits not right, and then its down to us.
So tonights surmon ends with this, observation is never wasted,work out what the hell ya just saw...and react!!!
yeah that'll do

Ere some of you godknows how many that read this,i just clocked numbers and its silly,can say hello,we don't bite(leave that to the mossies huh), it'd be good to say hello, ya never know you might just get to see a little tiny tiny mystie tad just about to go in the water water for the first time,an thats about as good as it gets,
bring it on
Stu


----------



## kermitthefrog

Great thread Stu, as you suggested just thought I'd drop you a line and say what an amazing job you've done, rather than be a long time lurker, been coming back to this thread for months. Have kept a lot of amphibs over the years, but time and funds haven't allowed for darts....YET! One day I'll dip my toes and no doubt become an addict haha


----------



## soundstounite

kermitthefrog said:


> Great thread Stu, as you suggested just thought I'd drop you a line and say what an amazing job you've done, rather than be a long time lurker, been coming back to this thread for months. Have kept a lot of amphibs over the years, but time and funds haven't allowed for darts....YET! One day I'll dip my toes and no doubt become an addict haha


 Cheers Kermit,tis nice to say hello to folks,we had met lots of cool guys here,i remember when we played phibs as kids,me and me mate next door,there was no one else to talk to,i guess i was too shy to ever speak to anyone at the zoo we hung out at, which is a shame!! Tell ya what though this thread does show a way i suppose of getting into darts without spending the earth,sure our methods are time consuming,but a careworkers wage is not great so although we are rich in other ways dosh is not really one of them.By slowly grinding it out,making most of it and growing most of the plants,it is possible to have a pretty nice set up. But yeah your right we do spend alot of time at it,but i'd be lying if i said it wasn't enjoyable,ok with the exception of cleaning ff containers:mf_dribble::lol2: .
What do you keep mate?
yeah i'm sure once you do get darts you will be hooked,they are enchanting animals,and getting the opportunity to be part of the lifecycle is superb. But i also can't wait till the day when we get to watch oophaga doing their thang. We are just marveling at the second guy popping his front legs,cool this frog stuff!!!!!
regards
Stu
Stu


----------



## kermitthefrog

Always something new to learn alright, fascinating stuff. Aw I don't keep much now, been on the move the past year and a half after graduating from Uni and new jobs, relocations etc so just axolotls at the moment.

Have kept alot of treefrogs (American Greens, Greys, Barking, Cubans, White's, Spring peepers), _Ceratophrys_ spp, Cane toads, newts, running frogs (_Kassina_ spp), Helmeted Water Toads (_Caudiverbera caudiverbera_, now renamed but can't remember new classification), eh think that's it amphib-wise! And the usual suspect reps as a teenager, corns, leos, a bosc, then various ratsnakes, garters, sand boas, rough greens, lots of turtles. 

Making a more permanent move in a months time so taking on a baby Yemen Chameleon from a friend's batch of hatchlings, and once that grows out of it's initial viv I will just have to find a use for the empty Exo Terra! Perhaps a dart build will be on the cards haha!


----------



## soundstounite

kermitthefrog said:


> Always something new to learn alright, fascinating stuff. Aw I don't keep much now, been on the move the past year and a half after graduating from Uni and new jobs, relocations etc so just axolotls at the moment.
> 
> Have kept alot of treefrogs (American Greens, Greys, Barking, Cubans, White's, Spring peepers), _Ceratophrys_ spp, Cane toads, newts, running frogs (_Kassina_ spp), Helmeted Water Toads (_Caudiverbera caudiverbera_, now renamed but can't remember new classification), eh think that's it amphib-wise! And the usual suspect reps as a teenager, corns, leos, a bosc, then various ratsnakes, garters, sand boas, rough greens, lots of turtles.
> 
> Making a more permanent move in a months time so taking on a baby Yemen Chameleon from a friend's batch of hatchlings, and once that grows out of it's initial viv I will just have to find a use for the empty Exo Terra! Perhaps a dart build will be on the cards haha!


Yup the learning never stops,but you already have a lot of knowledge...actually looking at that list a hell of a lot.Good to hear your gonna be settled for a while,all the luck with the chameleon,always desired as a kid ,amazing animals.
and as for the darts well you already know what i'm gonna say
bring it on
regards

ps i forgot:welcome::lol2: Buddy your thoughts and ideas are always welcome here,especially the leftfield stuff.

Spent a good while this afternoon,grabbing mossy larvea and pupae and bloodworms for the tapols hoping especially that the tads nail all the pupae soon,wasn't completely sure about feeding the stage so close to mostquito,tried one on a large hungrey auratus tad,stunning to see this get nailed,i have probably said this before but these little guys taking on what nature intended really has to be seen,that turn of speed is truely amazing....hands still smell of ponds oh well....only washed about a dozen times now:blush: Tad closest to morph has popped one front leg now 24 hrs...is this cause for alarm?
Stu


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## kermitthefrog

Not much you can do but let it pop the other one mate, nature will sort it out and sounds like you've done your bit, great to have a natural source of food for them, can't get better gut loaded and nutritious than that! Do you have your own pond or what? 

Yeah man, must make more of an effort to get involved on here, as it is I just tend to browse when I get free time at work. Will keep you posted and wrack your brains no doubt on any future dartfrog-shaped developments this end :lol2:


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## kermitthefrog

Reminds me a few weeks back had to separate all my axie larvae into individual tupperware containers, got to the stage if I missed a day of feeding newly hatched brine shrimp the bigger ones were biting limbs off the smaller ones. Eek, they are little eating machines at the tadpole stage, if it moves it gets nailed! And if it doesn't fit in their mouth, they'll give it a good go anyway :gasp:


----------



## soundstounite

kermitthefrog said:


> Not much you can do but let it pop the other one mate, nature will sort it out and sounds like you've done your bit, great to have a natural source of food for them, can't get better gut loaded and nutritious than that! Do you have your own pond or what?
> 
> Yeah man, must make more of an effort to get involved on here, as it is I just tend to browse when I get free time at work. Will keep you posted and wrack your brains no doubt on any future dartfrog-shaped developments this end :lol2:


 Other one popped ok 48 hrs late,but our frogs like messing with us i guess


















We are what one might call ecowarriors i suppose,don't have much but don't waste too much so a side shoot of having too many waterbutts around the place in an effort to not waste tap water is 2 butts at bottom of garden say around 3 foot across and almost as deep,will soon have 5 working there off me shed 4 now all linked with pipes and syphons all fill from one pipe.The 2 biggies are my source of tad grub,not covered so little mini ecosystems,the ....:censor: next door have a big pond i try to provide a good place for natives when they aren't visiting them.vertical sides seem to keep native phibs from our butts,but it has to be said there are possible risks to using this resourse,and i believe benefits too...er big ones as you say. 
Any ideas this novice can chuck at ya, no worries mate,oh whats you name dude? i don't know how much longer kermit is gonna sound right:lol2:.
regards
Stu


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## soundstounite

One of you 'Orrible lot has just been unbelievably kind to us,I'm gonna kep stum on whom until we have spoken but lets say he utterly went out of his way for us,and he's never met us untill today,even rung us from a strange land,to make sure he nailed exactly what we were after,and looked afterem,fed em like his own untill we could get to him
THANKS MATE:2thumb::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
Because of the size of the fellas mitts Shaz has named them after me gran(93) and Grampy,not here now sadly. He was an amazing guy and had hands like SHOVELS,me old Gran's gonna kill us when she hears about this:mf_dribble::lol2:
So here's Ernie and Millie:whistling2: due to Stu's camera skills being crap the colour's a bit washed out,one day i'll learn this stuff properly for now we'll learn frogs though
















































Both are feeding well especially her,really funny whist we were feeding them the one of the citrons i think male came to the front and sat there watching us pleading starvation and looking really left out,so course then every one else got theirs too,really funny to watch
Just in case anybody doesn't know they are D.tinctorius macheto,we like being part of the dart/phib scene here it ROCKS,folks help each other,not all about me...that is so cool:2thumb:
thanks mate:no1:
Stu


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## Paul112

Followed this thread for ages now, just wanted to say it's been fantastic so far, all the best with it! 

Best,
Paul


----------



## soundstounite

Paul112 said:


> Followed this thread for ages now, just wanted to say it's been fantastic so far, all the best with it!
> 
> Best,
> Paul


 hey Paul...thanks mate good to hear from ya,glad your enjoying,more to come i guess ,thanks for the kindness:notworthy: but thats not really why i posted the come out come out where ever you are bit:lol2:,i just thought it would be cool to hear from some other folks,there is a lot of untapped knowledge out there and its cool to get different takes on stuff,the more the better really,all adds to our pool of knowledge,always welcome constructive criticism or new ideas on how to do stuff.
Great to hear from you Paul,anytime you have someing wise to chuck at us do so buddy,or just a question to ask anything really.
regards
Stu


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## soundstounite

For the moment we are going to pop the second froglet with ickle mate,the container is plenty big enough and well stocked with feeders,we would really welcome any thoughts on rearing darts,we actually put him into a morph out container today,sometime we are gonna have to think really hard on rearing and develope a strong method for this,it would be easiest with groups of some kind but the ideal might be single containers.Space is gonna be a premium for the moment...any thoughts?
Machets good:mf_dribble:
Bring it on
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

After along chat with a knowledgeable chap on here,ha and the first guy to see what this malarky REALLY looks like,we have got hold of one of the newish arcadia T5's. This is running at 24 watts as opposed to 14 and is being utilised over our Tads.I am trying to get enough uvb into those tads,what i really like is the reflectors they do,they seem far superior to the ones we normally utilise,with the solar raptor unit. a bit of hand shaping and i simply popped it into the unit in no time,i'm sure way more light is getting to the tads. The bulb itself seems good,my usual biovitals don't have alot of spec too them,so i am really hoping for good things,as i know arcadia do alot of homework on their lights,am hoping that one particular species will really benefit from this bulb,time will tell at morph out i guess.The lighting colour seems good too might try them on some vivs as well. 
Darts vivs are funny things in a way,we grow live plants,yet some species of dart ,i am slowing starting to believe don't require huge light levels,i know of long standing breeders an the states that actually use NO lights at all over their vivs and report seeing their frogs out more. I think uvb might be crucial to some species and beneficial to others,and i utterly intend to keep using it. I also am comming to the conclusions that planting dart vivs need to thought about carefully,getting the balance right, of the right plant in the right place and the right strength of bulb over the top, really wish we had more choice of lower wattage uvb bulbs for dart vivs i'd love to try a 14 watt made by arcadia over the 40 high vivs as above the 24 looks really good and hopefully will give our frogs that uvb in a quality that we want for them. But although i love my plants and i see the appeal of beautifully lit and planted vivs with wonderfully colourful broms,i am slowly starting to debate with myself whether this is really whats best for some darts.
As i set up the first 2' cube for the leucs i was told i would need at least 80 watt over the top to give decent plant growth,but its just not the case,you've all seen the leucs viv its a morass of plants the ones i stuck in the wrong place,ie fittonia have a tendancy for leggyness,








but the rest are thriving,i have nearly lost sight of the cork now,which is always been the desire for me. What is important i am slowly realising is get the lighting right for the dart,and plant to that,after all we are dartsters first plantsmen second.
I/we grow nearly all our plants,have bought one from the off and worked it,when i look at many of the ferns in our own vivs i often think that even though i have really tried to put them below broms and in shadey places they are still too pale green ( asymptom of too much light) and i guess these are the plants that one finds in the bottom of woodland where many,BUT not all our frogs live.
This debate with myself is purely obsevation driven,me watching our vivs,our plants,which i know how to grow and how they grow. Even our much wanted slow growth is adsurdly fast when the right plant goes in the right place. 
The further we go the more i want a rainforest in a viv,and those colours are green and brown,which is tinged with irony really,becuase my /our gardening style is big blousey and as many colours as possible...funny eh. cause in vivs i find myself going for green and brown more each time. Something else thats pretty cool too when the viv isn't rammed with every colour under the sun,those colours are still there,and they really really stand out:mf_dribble:..... and they move:mf_dribble:
yup 
on our frogs 
one thoughtful ramble over:Na_Na_Na_Na:
seeya
Stu


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## Morgan Freeman

It depends on the conditions ferns are initially grown in IMO. I have two which have erupted from my tree fern panels and are right next to the light. The two I've brought from Richie full grown I have to keep shaded or they start to yellow.

My fittonias also grow leggy in high light, I haven't found the right happy medium for them.


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> It depends on the conditions ferns are initially grown in IMO. I have two which have erupted from my tree fern panels and are right next to the light. The two I've brought from Richie full grown I have to keep shaded or they start to yellow.
> 
> My fittonias also grow leggy in high light, I haven't found the right happy medium for them.


 the gametophytes will tell us if that thoery is right Paul, thats for sure...interesting point good on ya mate:notworthy:
what no " nice yellow guys stu:2thumb:",oh man everyone hates us,just cause we named some frogs after me gran and grampy:gasp: and yesterday i was so proud
oh well 
welcome to page 100
anyway....don't care:Na_Na_Na_Na: we love em:lol2::lol2::lol2:
and got another little guy popping front legs too
get in
bring it on 
Stu


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## Morgan Freeman

*nice frogs stu!!!!!*


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## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> *nice frogs stu!!!!!*


 :flrt::flrt::flrt::flrt::flrt::flrt::flrt::flrt::flrt::Na_Na_Na_Na:
your just saying that now
wish i could do that stuff:mf_dribble:
PMSL


----------



## chrism

Glad happy with them fella.
Will reply to your pm later- been bit busy!! 





soundstounite said:


> One of you 'Orrible lot has just been unbelievably kind to us,I'm gonna kep stum on whom until we have spoken but lets say he utterly went out of his way for us,and he's never met us untill today,even rung us from a strange land,to make sure he nailed exactly what we were after,and looked afterem,fed em like his own untill we could get to him
> THANKS MATE:2thumb::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
> Because of the size of the fellas mitts Shaz has named them after me gran(93) and Grampy,not here now sadly. He was an amazing guy and had hands like SHOVELS,me old Gran's gonna kill us when she hears about this:mf_dribble::lol2:
> So here's Ernie and Millie:whistling2: due to Stu's camera skills being crap the colour's a bit washed out,one day i'll learn this stuff properly for now we'll learn frogs though
> image
> image
> image
> image
> image
> image
> Both are feeding well especially her,really funny whist we were feeding them the one of the citrons i think male came to the front and sat there watching us pleading starvation and looking really left out,so course then every one else got theirs too,really funny to watch
> Just in case anybody doesn't know they are D.tinctorius macheto,we like being part of the dart/phib scene here it ROCKS,folks help each other,not all about me...that is so cool:2thumb:
> thanks mate:no1:
> Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

How much lighting you require isn't really a definite figure anyway Stu, it depends on what plants you are growing. Those ferns, fittonia and creeping ficus for example are all plants that aren't exactly demanding of light. Heck, most broms do just as fine with less powerful light. The cincher is, often variegated and/or red pigmented plants can lose color under inadequate lighting, Besides which, wattage isn't the be all and end all, I have found that the type of light is as important, often it's possible to use a lower wattage of a better quality of light than a much higher wattage of a lower quality of light (quality here, I mean light that the plants can use better.).

As to 80 watts, for a single viv? Nah. I don't have 80 watts over ANY single viv. The highest wattage I have in lighting is 108 watts, but that is across 3 vivs. The highest wattage I have over a single viv is 72 watts, and that consists of 2 36 watt Osram Dulux PLL bulbs over my cristobal viv. Believe me when I say growth has been phenomenal in there, and the red/coloured broms in there have all maintained there colour, or in some cases become deeper coloured.

So no Stu, you don't NEED masses of lighting over vivs, end of the day there is no water in them, which means more light penetrates than does in an aquarium. I know some people who have planted vivs lit by a single good quality T8 and can grow most plants. The purpose behind my using more powerful lighting, well it's about the colours bud. Plant colours, frog colours....  You can go too powerful as well. As I have tried to explain to folks before, lighting is the foot upon the throttle of plant growth. The harder you press down on that throttle, the faster the plants use the fuel (ferts/nutrients if you prefer). Press too hard and you mess up the balance between nutrients added through misting and frog wastes and growth, you can then reach a point where nutrient supplementation through the additional of safe fertisilisers becomes essential rather than just an option. It's often better to accept slower growth as a trade off for more stability. End of the day, the driving force behind our vivs is the animals in them, the plants are the icing on the cake. I tend to advocate 2 T5HOs as I have found they give me a good balance between growth, good colour and balance. They also give you more lumens per watt that T8s, been more energy efficient, and giving off less heat. They AREN'T however absolutely essential. I would be lying if I ever said "you can't grow plants in a viv with just a single, good quality, reflectored T8 daylight tube of a suitable wattage".

Heck, I can't see a single plant in that pic that needs a lot of light. lol It's a perfect example of a "lower light tolerating" planting scheme. 

Oh and I rarely worry about overdoing light for the frogs. That's where shady spots created by decor and/or plants come in.

Ade


----------



## kermitthefrog

soundstounite said:


> Any ideas this novice can chuck at ya, no worries mate,oh whats you name dude? i don't know how much longer kermit is gonna sound right:lol2:.
> regards
> Stu


Hey Stu, he looks great! Well done on that :2thumb:

Sorry, the name's Sean :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> How much lighting you require isn't really a definite figure anyway Stu, it depends on what plants you are growing. Those ferns, fittonia and creeping ficus for example are all plants that aren't exactly demanding of light. Heck, most broms do just as fine with less powerful light. The cincher is, often variegated and/or red pigmented plants can lose color under inadequate lighting, Besides which, wattage isn't the be all and end all, I have found that the type of light is as important, often it's possible to use a lower wattage of a better quality of light than a much higher wattage of a lower quality of light (quality here, I mean light that the plants can use better.).
> 
> As to 80 watts, for a single viv? Nah. I don't have 80 watts over ANY single viv. The highest wattage I have in lighting is 108 watts, but that is across 3 vivs. The highest wattage I have over a single viv is 72 watts, and that consists of 2 36 watt Osram Dulux PLL bulbs over my cristobal viv. Believe me when I say growth has been phenomenal in there, and the red/coloured broms in there have all maintained there colour, or in some cases become deeper coloured.
> 
> So no Stu, you don't NEED masses of lighting over vivs, end of the day there is no water in them, which means more light penetrates than does in an aquarium. I know some people who have planted vivs lit by a single good quality T8 and can grow most plants. The purpose behind my using more powerful lighting, well it's about the colours bud. Plant colours, frog colours....  You can go too powerful as well. As I have tried to explain to folks before, lighting is the foot upon the throttle of plant growth. The harder you press down on that throttle, the faster the plants use the fuel (ferts/nutrients if you prefer). Press too hard and you mess up the balance between nutrients added through misting and frog wastes and growth, you can then reach a point where nutrient supplementation through the additional of safe fertisilisers becomes essential rather than just an option. It's often better to accept slower growth as a trade off for more stability. End of the day, the driving force behind our vivs is the animals in them, the plants are the icing on the cake. I tend to advocate 2 T5HOs as I have found they give me a good balance between growth, good colour and balance. They also give you more lumens per watt that T8s, been more energy efficient, and giving off less heat. They AREN'T however absolutely essential. I would be lying if I ever said "you can't grow plants in a viv with just a single, good quality, reflectored T8 daylight tube of a suitable wattage".
> 
> Heck, I can't see a single plant in that pic that needs a lot of light. lol It's a perfect example of a "lower light tolerating" planting scheme.
> 
> Oh and I rarely worry about overdoing light for the frogs. That's where shady spots created by decor and/or plants come in.
> 
> Ade


great eloquently writen thoughts mate:2thumb:,as you know i'm apt to ramble on every now and then,absolutly superb to have another take from someone else whose opinion we always value adds a good balance to what i was rabbiting about for other guys following behind us, to muse on. This ramble started out on the subject of the tads/uvb a different brand of lighting the eye opener of a different reflector(arcadia) and kinda went onto thoughts directed particulary in a way to observations and reading on our auratus,although i tried to keep it broader and prevoke thought.But as always an off on one:lol2:ramble.
oh the section on wattage is a big point mate because i was referring to T5 tubes which i didn't stipulate to folks and of course didn't think to take into account LED where wattage is utterly different,as you say lumens a much better more accurate measure,some of our 50x50x40high have 3.75watts over them which doesn't mean much at all out of context 
THANKS mate cracking reply
regards
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

chrism said:


> Glad happy with them fella.
> Will reply to your pm later- been bit busy!!


 Ruddy stoked chris thanks mate:notworthy: so far settling well,thanks for taking care of them so well too!! hope all goes well your end,speak soon
very very greatful:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

kermitthefrog said:


> Hey Stu, he looks great! Well done on that :2thumb:
> 
> Sorry, the name's Sean :lol2:


hey Sean,got 2 more comming right behind this one,both have done exactly the same,I guess they are messing with us!!! just fingers crossed now that those front legs are strong,a week i guess wil tell less on the first,gonna have to chech records i thought these were all a week apart,
cheers
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

A little bit of tadpol fun me thinks,we start them in little glasses just a bit of water say 1cm i have experianced a few losses to something called mouth rot,its not lots just here and there,i think its down to our oak leaves getting old,so all the guys that have hatched in the last few days have no tad tea,no oakleaf just our rainwater and a bit of algae,grown on some elodea.Mouth rot can also be caused by feeding too high protien to early apparently,but seen as we don't give them anything first week anyway thats scuppered that one. I must reiterate we are not losing many but you guys need to know the good and the bad,if we have got a tad past week one,then its still here so far!!!!!!!!!! little pic of a teeny tiny mystie tad d/o bless,they are proper small but you can see them eyes much better than the auratus








Here are a few more of the little people that have graced our presance in the last few days,auratus hatches much much stronger now







you'll note a green tray in a later pic thats full of new born too really really good week this one.
We will add tad tea gently as they get older and check that when we have an oakleaf to be used that it doen't leave any film on the water after being submerged for a couple of days,so a slight change to try and upgrade just a bit more and get to that elusive 100 tad livability.
As the tads get older they were going into the gizmo,what i would do is stand their glass in the corner and then leave so temperatures equalised trying to mimimise shock to the tad then slit water with gizmos water then in the tadpol goes. Hopefully the new crop of fresh oakleaves will aliviate some of the above problems.As far as the gizmo goes all good so far,the first tadpols are comming out ok we think,only one problem its way too small and when our room is oneday full and of breeding age frogs,not something i'm rushing to do,this system will be utterly inadequate if they all took the view of breeding at the same timethere is now no doubt of this in my mind. The actual design is sound so far no problems we like,i do do partial water changes just be cause i can really and its an absolute doddle takes around a minute so although i probably don't need to always trying to keep ahead of any potential problems by doing that bit extra,no worries so far about hormones supressing growth,the fear will always be a disease of some form knocking out the lot,part of the logic behind the water changes is they get fresh water regularly in a rainforest so an attempt to emulate this can't hurt and as before just so easy.
gizmo at capacity








oh and before i move on just a tad:blush: here's the shelf currantly housing the babies,note the clip top tupperware from tesco...that the simplist incubator i've ever used:mf_dribble:ha and the cheepest!!!








All glasses are part submerged in water just an effort to stabilise temps a little bit,but more thought needed here,we like starting them in glasses,but its not good use of space this way.
Here's another auratus just before it comes out of the gizmo and goes into a morph out tub
















which is,simply a low tupperware on the tilt in a larger curver box is our presant method but am formulating a design for a proper grow out rack as we speak,but thats for abit later have to sort out the next 3 backgrounds first and stop thinking about who, the hell we want to put in them. and build something...DOH
So to pretty much wrap up most of what we have learnt so far about dart tads and our methods here's the end result our second little froglet,hours ootw,and looking ok standing well and the obsevant will note 2 more right be hind him,moved at the very last minute: as the tails were shrinking, hoping that they had stopped feeding and they would decide to munch on each other....not ideal but getting there huh!!








and one more of second froglet coooooooool:mf_dribble:








Now if we can just maintain this and get them damn mysties out without sls we will be stoked,wow man back in feb all i was thinking is have i imputted enough to be worthy of keeping darts are we REAlLY ready,this stuff is really meant to be next year,and has slowed progress on other fronts for sure as you need to learn another set of skills.
bloody good fun though
c'mom mysties
Stu





ps macheto's good so far


----------



## Wolfenrook

Look at things a different way Stu. If they HAD of waited next year, wouldn't you have had a LOT more frogs doing it? Leaving you having to learn all this and sort out a LOT more eggs, tads etc? At least this way you're not inundated eh? lol

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Look at things a different way Stu. If they HAD of waited next year, wouldn't you have had a LOT more frogs doing it? Leaving you having to learn all this and sort out a LOT more eggs, tads etc? At least this way you're not inundated eh? lol
> 
> Ade


 :2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb: ha wise words mate take note of those they apply to you:lol2:....be ready buddy when it really kicks in be prepared me old mate once you get past the young frogs thang,strap yourself in Ade...its WICKED:mf_dribble:,your alot furthur on than us in lots of ways mate,more older frogs many of your guys will start up next year, you have warned yourself though:2thumb::mf_dribble: honestly mate you'll love this bit ,i should twist Richies arm for a couple of his gizmos now he's got plenty of time before frogday to make em and you'll get yourself a good deal too 80% off i hear for staff
:mf_dribble::lol2:
seeya mate
Stu


----------



## natopecker

Been keeping tabs on this thread for a long time, and it keeps getting better and better, im learning more all the time. This and all the other Dart Frog threads. I cant wait to start on this hobby as soon as i get my own place. 

The mother hates animals of any kind and wont let anything in the house, lol. Fortunately i get married next year and will be moving out!! So plan to start with the hobby asap after that, trying to get a lot of the basics right in my head first.


----------



## soundstounite

natopecker said:


> Been keeping tabs on this thread for a long time, and it keeps getting better and better, im learning more all the time. This and all the other Dart Frog threads. I cant wait to start on this hobby as soon as i get my own place.
> 
> The mother hates animals of any kind and wont let anything in the house, lol. Fortunately i get married next year and will be moving out!! So plan to start with the hobby asap after that, trying to get a lot of the basics right in my head first.


 cheers mate nice to hear from you,ahh man we're learning along with you its really cool,can't wait til we see you get started,shame about your mum but you won't regret your homework first. congrats on your marrage,tell you what you could get a few plants in now though,things like broms are expensive to buy if you grabbed some neos by next year they will be covered in pups and that will be a great start same with the odd ficus just a thought will save ya a bob or two:2thumb: i might be a sneaky sod and grab some tropical woods too but maybe best not,your mum would probably kill me.:mf_dribble:
thanks for the reply nice to hear from new folks as well as our mates here
regards 
Stu


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## soundstounite

HARDCORE !!!!!!!
Well it pretty much seems that the oak leaves are NOT responsible for the mouth rot,sometimes ya have to learn the hard way with animals,my move to prevent it i am pretty sure is going to backfire,we have it all over the place in the new tadpols,wherever its comming from it very much looks like its not the oak leaves as we haven't used any on this batch at all. In a vain effort to rectify things i have added oak tea to all newcommers but its probably too late. this afternoon all were ok now....BOLLOX,my guess is at least 10 out of around 16 will secumbe...hard core!! Hopefully someone somewhere will learn from this. But if you don't try to better your husbandary you don't learn these things i suppose.What is it they say the guy that never made a mistake never did nothing,i now have one other place to look for the cause of this,a recently bought in batch of canadian pond weed,i'll eradicate this next hatches and keep leaves see where we go. 
Ha any ideas why i am so warey of buying in products and do so much of it here,its not all cost...seen this before in another field.
So yup one damn :censor: off dude but i ain't going out like that !!
Today we got to hand feed a tadpol(ok tweezers) live grub,ha thats a first especailly an auratus,hes in the corner nearest to where we do stuff in the gizmo so i guess he's now pretty used to us and has worked our what we are up to it appears..... so cool hand feeding dart tads,then we watched as our little second froglet munched some wild caught springs,repashy an all:mf_dribble: so it aint all bad its livestock,some ya win some ya don't,you don't get one without the other:devil: oh well
bring it on
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Take a deep breath Stu, all might not be lost. Methylene blue bud Methylene Blue as a Treatment Option for Fungal, Protozoan and Bacterial Infections in Frogs and Salamanders: Amphibian Health | That Reptile Blog it MAY save your tads.

Some more natural preventatives you could try are making your tadpole tea with alder cones and catappa leaves, they're supposed to help fight infection as well.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Take a deep breath Stu, all might not be lost. Methylene blue bud Methylene Blue as a Treatment Option for Fungal, Protozoan and Bacterial Infections in Frogs and Salamanders: Amphibian Health | That Reptile Blog it MAY save your tads.
> 
> Some more natural preventatives you could try are making your tadpole tea with alder cones and catappa leaves, they're supposed to help fight infection as well.
> 
> Ade


 Thanks buddy,this has come on so fast i think by the time i can get anything sorted will be too late but i will definitly say a monster thanks for your thoughts bro,hugely appreciated. The taninins i believe are the anti fungal same as in our oak leaves which is why its hit so damn hard when i made the call to remove the oak ,i thought old leaves Ade...WRONG!! New ones very soon now. I'm aware of all of the above buddy i have some aldercones picked, i'll have alook out side in amo,ya never know,i really should have methylene blue here but have had so few problems(which i put down to uvb over the top).
Goona shoot mate great thoughts kiddo massively appreciated...onit!!
S


----------



## soundstounite

treatment effected see what the morrow brings,thankyou Ade,forgot i had picked the cones
regards
Stu


----------



## Sandsifter

soundstounite said:


> Thanks buddy,this has come on so fast i think by the time i can get anything sorted will be too late but i will definitly say a monster thanks for your thoughts bro,hugely appreciated. The taninins i believe are the anti fungal same as in our oak leaves which is why its hit so damn hard when i made the call to remove the oak ,i thought old leaves Ade...WRONG!! New ones very soon now. I'm aware of all of the above buddy i have some aldercones picked, i'll have alook out side in amo,ya never know,i really should have methylene blue here but have had so few problems(which i put down to uvb over the top).
> Goona shoot mate great thoughts kiddo massively appreciated...onit!!
> S


Hi Stu,

Spent more hours than I would want to admit reading this thread. It's been brilliant. Thanks 

Just researching keeping PDF's atm, which is how i stumbled on your thread, and had every intention of reading, then reading yet more for a long while yet, but your current problem has reduced all my good intentions to nought, so take what you will from the following ravings  (all based on years of experience in fish culture and retail and next to no experience of phibs):

Bacterial infections like mouth rot are common among some intensively farmed live-bearers like guppy's and molly's from some fish-farm areas, regardless of water quality. Seems unlikely for PDF's given the hobby scale breeding ?

With poor water quality bacterial infections are likely in almost any fish. The first thing I'd want to know about if a customer came looking for a anti bacterial "cure" would be their water. High "waste" levels (eg nitrite, nitrate, and ammonia) are almost always the real problem. For all the weeks of reading up on PDF's across several forums, I'm not sure I've yet seen mention of a simple £10 test kit..

Meth blue is very useful stuff and imho worth a try, but again, just mo, like tannins its real role is in reducing bacterial numbers in the environment rather than saving an animal once the infection has set in. Fwiw I'd try it anyway.

In my reading to date I don't understand why you don't just use a UV sterilizer to feed clean water to the tads instead of all this fussing about with weird tea brews and other snake oils? 

Your vivs are truely awesome though , but im less than a noob so take that anyway you want  

I'll get me coat. Will still be following you and Shaz's adventure with interest 

All the best,

Chris


----------



## Wolfenrook

I have to agree, I'd be tempted to test for ammonia and nitrites. Reason been, I know your tadpole system is filtered, but to my knowledge it wasn't cycled before you started using it was it? As in with household ammonia or biomature? Reason been, it takes a good 10 weeks for a filter to get a decent load of the bacteria that remove the ammonia and nitrites in my experience. So if you slapped the filter on, and then stopped doing the very very frequent water changes, the tads will be swimming in their own wastes.

Chris, tadpole tea isn't snake oil bud. it's an established process that provides the tadpoles 'conditioned' water, and has been found to help raise tadpoles from certain species. It's also been established that tanins to posess potential anti viral, anti bacterial and anti parisitic effects. http://indjst.org/archive/vol.2.issue.2/feb09dos.pdf http://www.plantasmedicinales.org/archivos/plantas_medicinales_y_helicobacter_pylori.pdf. It's not ALL tannins however Stu, it's just tannins from certain plants, hence my advice about catappa/katappa (Indian almond leaves) and alder cones, which have been proven effective in freshwater shrimp keeping and the keeping of bettas. Nothing has been proven for oak or beech leaves yet, although both are often used in softwater biotope aquariums for their water staining qualities and ability to make water more acid.

A UV sterilizer MAY help, but it's a bit of an expensive piece of kit to experiment with. However my plan is to use the Sera UV equiped external filter once I get a tad raising system set up, as I already own one that I was given back when I was a product tester for PFK magazine. The flow rate has to be slowed down considerably however to make them effective in sterilisation, otherwise all they do is prevent green water.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> Hi Stu,
> 
> Spent more hours than I would want to admit reading this thread. It's been brilliant. Thanks
> 
> Just researching keeping PDF's atm, which is how i stumbled on your thread, and had every intention of reading, then reading yet more for a long while yet, but your current problem has reduced all my good intentions to nought, so take what you will from the following ravings  (all based on years of experience in fish culture and retail and next to no experience of phibs):
> 
> Bacterial infections like mouth rot are common among some intensively farmed live-bearers like guppy's and molly's from some fish-farm areas, regardless of water quality. Seems unlikely for PDF's given the hobby scale breeding ?
> 
> With poor water quality bacterial infections are likely in almost any fish. The first thing I'd want to know about if a customer came looking for a anti bacterial "cure" would be their water. High "waste" levels (eg nitrite, nitrate, and ammonia) are almost always the real problem. For all the weeks of reading up on PDF's across several forums, I'm not sure I've yet seen mention of a simple £10 test kit..
> 
> Meth blue is very useful stuff and imho worth a try, but again, just mo, like tannins its real role is in reducing bacterial numbers in the environment rather than saving an animal once the infection has set in. Fwiw I'd try it anyway.
> 
> In my reading to date I don't understand why you don't just use a UV sterilizer to feed clean water to the tads instead of all this fussing about with weird tea brews and other snake oils?
> 
> Your vivs are truely awesome though , but im less than a noob so take that anyway you want
> 
> I'll get me coat. Will still be following you and Shaz's adventure with interest
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Chris


 hey Chris,really appreciate your thoughts mate:2thumb:.
Buddy all the tads at first are in individual glasses so do you mean sterilise the water with uv before i use it anywhere? This problem has not occured in the gizmo as i call it...ie the multi tad set up Not being a fish keeper i'm only basically aware of uv water purifiers,simply we summised that having uvb lighting over all tads might help nail bacteria.I might be totally wrong here Chris but it seems that the ommission of the tea (i quite like snake oil though:2thumb::lol2:might be the cause here,might be talking complete cobblers, i don't honestly know.
In this case my rain water could be at fault,but its unlikely to be a build up of waste,as there is virtually nothing excreted by the tads in the first couple of days,when this has happened,they are not even fed yet as they are still on the yolk,i totally see what your raving about if this was in the gizmo,but its prior to that stage each tadpol is in its own single glass,that said i will still quiz you if i may on your thoughts as to what nitrate levels etc you believe to be right for dart tadpoles becuase i'm interested in your thoughts mate and also any info on said test kits and how they are used which are best etc., with reference to the multi tad set up. Chris this is tricky for me,as a am abeginner in both fields,but what i can tell you is that some folks never change their tadpols water and experiance huge success even in a tiny glass,the theory being that these tadpols are highly developed towards polution/waste build up because they inhabit such tiny volumes of water,its not straight foward this mate at all,other folks argue that frequent partial changes replicate the conditions in a rainforest better. its very much not as clear as it seems Chris.We were looking last night at a picture of 3 tadpols same age same batch 1st no water changes just top up for evaporation,second changed 50% every 2 weeks 3rd 50% every 3 days 1st had 4 legs almost ootw 2nd back legs 3rd not barely developed legs.
Buddy thankyou for your imput,for your kind words about our malarky and for raving at me,it nice to have some real constructive thought and ideas thrown at me/us, i hope you read this and come back with more,i am sure from your words that your intentions are good towards us.Educate me about water quality mate.
Chris it would be so damn easy for me not to show the cock ups.... the mistakes and make myself out to be sommit i aint,but the point about this and the time it takes to put together is that it might just help other guys comming along behind us,i don't mind someone comming at me with experianced based thought even from a diferant field these ideas help me to learn and other chaps maybe too.
goodon ya
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> I have to agree, I'd be tempted to test for ammonia and nitrites. Reason been, I know your tadpole system is filtered, but to my knowledge it wasn't cycled before you started using it was it? As in with household ammonia or biomature? Reason been, it takes a good 10 weeks for a filter to get a decent load of the bacteria that remove the ammonia and nitrites in my experience. So if you slapped the filter on, and then stopped doing the very very frequent water changes, the tads will be swimming in their own wastes.
> 
> Chris, tadpole tea isn't snake oil bud. it's an established process that provides the tadpoles 'conditioned' water, and has been found to help raise tadpoles from certain species. It's also been established that tanins to posess potential anti viral, anti bacterial and anti parisitic effects. http://indjst.org/archive/vol.2.issue.2/feb09dos.pdf http://www.plantasmedicinales.org/archivos/plantas_medicinales_y_helicobacter_pylori.pdf. It's not ALL tannins however Stu, it's just tannins from certain plants, hence my advice about catappa/katappa (Indian almond leaves) and alder cones, which have been proven effective in freshwater shrimp keeping and the keeping of bettas. Nothing has been proven for oak or beech leaves yet, although both are often used in softwater biotope aquariums for their water staining qualities and ability to make water more acid.
> 
> A UV sterilizer MAY help, but it's a bit of an expensive piece of kit to experiment with. However my plan is to use the Sera UV equiped external filter once I get a tad raising system set up, as I already own one that I was given back when I was a product tester for PFK magazine. The flow rate has to be slowed down considerably however to make them effective in sterilisation, otherwise all they do is prevent green water.
> 
> Ade


 Again Ade great imput much appreciated,especially all the first paragraph about the tad gizmo,again real interesting,as above problem not here! The problem has occured within 3 days of hatch with single tads in single glasses,logic being that they are still water guys so putting them in a flowing currant how ever small might not help them,so they don't get comunal rearing till they are abit older,i guess 3plus weeks. No the gizmo was not cyled as you fish guys do,so explain to me what your biomature and ammonia are about please mate...even though they are nothing to do with this particular problem your imput is of huge value. and thanks for your thoughts last night too mate:notworthy: Whist we are talking about uv sterilisation of water,do the top uvb lights have no effect on this?
thanks again mate
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

NP Stu.

Right, first off, pretty sure Richie used to even keep his vent tads in a rearing system, in waxworm containers. If you think about it, in the wild the water in their deposition site is changed a few times a day probably just from rain fall. So you will be getting a build up of wastes. Lots do it that way, but pretty sure they change the water completely about once a day. Whenever I have seen mouth or fin rot in fish, it has ALWAYS been on stressed animals, either newly purchased, or when there were water quality problems.

Ammonia and Biomature do the same thing, just differently. You basically run your tank empty, and maintain Ammonia levels at about 4ppm. After a while, you start seeing a very fast drop in ammonia levels (to 0 in about 24 hours), and a spike in nitrite levels. At this point, I reduced the Ammonia level to 3ppm as the nitrifying bacteria could not establish at 3ppm. Once the nitrite was hitting 0 within 24 hours, then the filter is cylced. As in you can then fully stock the tank instantly, without getting an ammonia spike or using fish to cylce the filter. Biomature is similar, but has some other stuff added to feed the bacteria, so is a bit faster and not as smelly (household ammonia STINKS!). Basically fish wastes (and tadpole wastes are no different) break down very quickly to produce ammonia. Ammonia is VERY toxic. The filter breaks this down into nitrite which is still toxic but not quite as bad. Finally the filter breaks it down into nitrates, which are nearly harmless and act as plant food. In our vivs the substrate bacteria perfom the same cycle for us, and no need to cylce as they are already there.

UV lighting, at best it will help the tads to produce D3 is all. The type of UV used to kill pathogens is VERY dangerous stuff, it can even blind you. That's how it works, it kills ANY living cells that pass through it, whether bacteria, funghi, protazoan or algae. They're not a bulb you can put over your tank, but rather an enclosed lamp inside a unit that you plumb in, either to an external filter or it's own pump. The water then moves through this unit slowly, killing ANY living organisms in the water DEAD. They're very popular in marine fishkeeping due to how difficult it can be to use chemicals in tanks containing inverts. I have a filter with one built in due to my background in the freshwater shrimp hobby, they chose me to test it from this perspective.

Oh and you might NOT need to cycle your tadpole system as I have described. Over time the frog wastes will do the same job, but you do need to keep an eye.

Oh and re test kits, I ended up using the API ammonia one (liquid test). A LOT of the others don't just detect ammonia, they also detect ammonium which is quite harmless, and a waste of a test (plus I used to use products containing ammonium to feed my plants. lol).

Hope this helps.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> NP Stu.
> 
> Right, first off, pretty sure Richie used to even keep his vent tads in a rearing system, in waxworm containers. If you think about it, in the wild the water in their deposition site is changed a few times a day probably just from rain fall. So you will be getting a build up of wastes. Lots do it that way, but pretty sure they change the water completely about once a day. Whenever I have seen mouth or fin rot in fish, it has ALWAYS been on stressed animals, either newly purchased, or when there were water quality problems.
> 
> Ammonia and Biomature do the same thing, just differently. You basically run your tank empty, and maintain Ammonia levels at about 4ppm. After a while, you start seeing a very fast drop in ammonia levels (to 0 in about 24 hours), and a spike in nitrite levels. At this point, I reduced the Ammonia level to 3ppm as the nitrifying bacteria could not establish at 3ppm. Once the nitrite was hitting 0 within 24 hours, then the filter is cylced. As in you can then fully stock the tank instantly, without getting an ammonia spike or using fish to cylce the filter. Biomature is similar, but has some other stuff added to feed the bacteria, so is a bit faster and not as smelly (household ammonia STINKS!). Basically fish wastes (and tadpole wastes are no different) break down very quickly to produce ammonia. Ammonia is VERY toxic. The filter breaks this down into nitrite which is still toxic but not quite as bad. Finally the filter breaks it down into nitrates, which are nearly harmless and act as plant food. In our vivs the substrate bacteria perfom the same cycle for us, and no need to cylce as they are already there.
> 
> UV lighting, at best it will help the tads to produce D3 is all. The type of UV used to kill pathogens is VERY dangerous stuff, it can even blind you. That's how it works, it kills ANY living cells that pass through it, whether bacteria, funghi, protazoan or algae. They're not a bulb you can put over your tank, but rather an enclosed lamp inside a unit that you plumb in, either to an external filter or it's own pump. The water then moves through this unit slowly, killing ANY living organisms in the water DEAD. They're very popular in marine fishkeeping due to how difficult it can be to use chemicals in tanks containing inverts. I have a filter with one built in due to my background in the freshwater shrimp hobby, they chose me to test it from this perspective.
> 
> Oh and you might NOT need to cycle your tadpole system as I have described. Over time the frog wastes will do the same job, but you do need to keep an eye.
> 
> Oh and re test kits, I ended up using the API ammonia one (liquid test). A LOT of the others don't just detect ammonia, they also detect ammonium which is quite harmless, and a waste of a test (plus I used to use products containing ammonium to feed my plants. lol).
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Ade


 hey buddyi'll start up top,mate i am comming across folks that don't change there water at all for the lifespan of the tad,just top it up,seems pretty extreme but some are claiming to have never lost a tad this way. I believe Richie pops his tad straight into the system at d/o:lol2: but he knows WTF he's doing !!!!!!! I'm more cautious as demands my level of expertise. I utterly see your point with regards to fish,most live in larger bodies of water,i reiterate most so logically water quality is paramount, i do change the glasses regularly,i use aturkey baster to get all the pooh out,then top up,this is a modification to where i started,which was complete water changes daily,but i reckon that was hugely stressful for the tads,plus i hated it too. untill this weekend had minimal probs mate but the odd one so reacted...wrongly i believe.
ok mate i really appreciate you spelling all this larger body of water stuff out for me,i do partial water changes regularly probably one weekly or less definitely no more,again a caution thing,but its so damn easy why not. Ade you know about this stuff if i was using a test kit,whats the ball park for dart tads...i know you have deep expertise with fish but have you come across parameters for dart tads,i'm sure you'll have looked,seems logical anyway.
I understand the ammonia smell mate its toxicity,from the chucks,and chemistry at school nasty stuff. any animal i guess too many in too small a space this smell is what tells ya its all wrong do something,i look for it.ican definitly be acused of viv sniffing:gasp:.
The uv stuff all new to me mate the difference betwixt the fish keepers filters and our lighting all new. i thought there was some tie in,i guess different wavelengths involved?
Thanks again mate.
I would have a stab with what youve said that the reason for no problem in the gizmo is a slow build up of tadpols in there and all those water change previous to a tadpole going in there,still on 100% viability there and third tad climbing vertical side today so no sls......SO FAR if i get those mysties out without a hitch i have a proper method.I just need to sort out this first week,reality kicks in here because if one is going to lose any livestock that 1st week is usually where it happens,covered by the tranistion period from egg to tad/chick and for us tad to froglet.
cheers mate 
Stu


----------



## 123dragon

just sat and read the whole thread lol, everything looks amazing m8 :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

123dragon said:


> just sat and read the whole thread lol, everything looks amazing m8 :2thumb:


 glad you enjoyed kiddo,thankyou,everything apart from this last little bit with these tadpols which i now know more about.
thanks come again and say hi.

I'll tell ya all more about this tad thing tomorrow ,suffice to say almost sure now that the oakleaf was surpessing it,the removal of which,has let the fungus in,might poosibly be treatable with salt baths,and appears that its to do with the organ part of the mouth which the dart tad uses to hold on to daddy with,only seems to affect larger darts not oophaga. the tad being given too high protien too early can also be a possible cause
seeya
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

So far bud, most of what I have found is debate about it. However those who understand the science, and who have bothered to look at actual research and trials have come to a logically conclusion that goes something like this:-

Water in tiny deposition sites is very soft, as it's rain water.
Tannins from wood etc get into this rain water and give it quite a low pH.
The acids from this low pH turn the ammonia into ammonium (remember I mentioned this before?), ammonium is pretty much harmless.

So, seems to me those who are having success with just topping up are quite probably using tadpole tea made up with RO or similarly soft water, meaning the water they use has a low pH.

I can't find an exact pH, but best guess I would say it's probably something like 6 to 6.5, the usual 'low pH' range you find used for firsh.

Another VERY sensible thing I found posted was somebody pointing out that most deposition sites in the wild are in PLANTS. Plants that absorb nutrients through their leaves. Any plant keeper will know, ammonia is an EXCELLENT plant food (only reason you don't use it in tanks is the toxicity to animals). So the tadpoles water is sat in what is best described as a vegetable filter. Tadpoles deposited on 'the floor' as they put it (I'd include in nut pods etc into this) the nitrogenous wastes are leeched away constantly.

So basically, those who claim in the wild they sit in their own wastes are ignoring the natural processes that ensure this doesn't happen.

You can read the excellent thread about it here tadpoles and nitrites & ammonia - Dendroboard.

Regarding water changes, have you considered using the drip change method? This is far less of a shock to the animal, as it is gradual and very gentle, much like rainfall in the wild would be. In fact, with your love of inovating devices to make things easier, here is a suggestion for one you could try:-

Deep tray with a drain, as you would your vivs.
Small tad containers in tray.
Drip bars arranged over tad containers.
Some kind of reservoir (with your tadpole tea in it) rigged up to a low flow water pump.
Timer.

Set it up so that the pump runs for say 30 minutes or longer, very slowly dripping water like gentle rainfall into the tad containers, very gently overflowing them (so that there is a current pulling the tadpoles out with the water).

Been so slow a drip, the water change will be VERY gradual, temperature changes wont occur and nor will very fast changes in water chemistry. So you wont see that shock you were concerned about, but you WILL be constantly diluting those nasty nitrogenous waste products.

Just an idea anyway, a way to try to simulate what goes on in nature a bit better. Oh and if you are worried about introducing pathogens with your bits of plant, try using a blech bath. If you have a look on planted aquarium sites you should be able to get details of how to do it without killing the plant, or leaving traces of chlorine on the plants. The plants though are a very good idea, providing both a site for algae to grow, AND utilising some of that ammonia as a nutrient.

Oh, and Stu, don't bother sniffing for ammonia. lol In the tiny amounts produced, you wont notice any odour. It's the household ammonia that stinks, as it's something like 4% ammonia. It makes your eyes water. lol When aquarium keepers sniff they are actually checking for rotten eggs smells, as this tells you that your substrate has gone anaerobic and is producing hydrogen sulphide, which is bad bad bad bad.

Ade


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## Wolfenrook

I forgot to answer your question about UV.

Right, the UV found in lights is UVB and UVA.

The UV in clarifiers and sterilisers is UVC.

UVC is VERY dangerous nasty stuff, that you wouldn't want to expose you, or your pets to. There is NO UVC in natural sunlight, as it's filtered out by the atmosphere, which is just as well as otherwise we wouldn't exist.:lol2: It's much higher enegergy than UVA or UVB, which is what makes it so dangerous.

Ade


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## Alex M

(Hey Stu, got your CD's and letter today - as soon as I get home I will give them a good listen me old mucker - Thanks mate! Cheers, Al)


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## Sandsifter

soundstounite said:


> hey Chris,really appreciate your thoughts mate:2thumb:.
> Buddy all the tads at first are in individual glasses so do you mean sterilise the water with uv before i use it anywhere? This problem has not occured in the gizmo as i call it...ie the multi tad set up Not being a fish keeper i'm only basically aware of uv water purifiers,simply we summised that having uvb lighting over all tads might help nail bacteria.I might be totally wrong here Chris but it seems that the ommission of the tea (i quite like snake oil though:2thumb::lol2:might be the cause here,might be talking complete cobblers, i don't honestly know.
> In this case my rain water could be at fault,but its unlikely to be a build up of waste,as there is virtually nothing excreted by the tads in the first couple of days,when this has happened,they are not even fed yet as they are still on the yolk,i totally see what your raving about if this was in the gizmo,but its prior to that stage each tadpol is in its own single glass,that said i will still quiz you if i may on your thoughts as to what nitrate levels etc you believe to be right for dart tadpoles becuase i'm interested in your thoughts mate and also any info on said test kits and how they are used which are best etc., with reference to the multi tad set up. Chris this is tricky for me,as a am abeginner in both fields,but what i can tell you is that some folks never change their tadpols water and experiance huge success even in a tiny glass,the theory being that these tadpols are highly developed towards polution/waste build up because they inhabit such tiny volumes of water,its not straight foward this mate at all,other folks argue that frequent partial changes replicate the conditions in a rainforest better. its very much not as clear as it seems Chris.We were looking last night at a picture of 3 tadpols same age same batch 1st no water changes just top up for evaporation,second changed 50% every 2 weeks 3rd 50% every 3 days 1st had 4 legs almost ootw 2nd back legs 3rd not barely developed legs.
> Buddy thankyou for your imput,for your kind words about our malarky and for raving at me,it nice to have some real constructive thought and ideas thrown at me/us, i hope you read this and come back with more,i am sure from your words that your intentions are good towards us.Educate me about water quality mate.
> Chris it would be so damn easy for me not to show the cock ups.... the mistakes and make myself out to be sommit i aint,but the point about this and the time it takes to put together is that it might just help other guys comming along behind us,i don't mind someone comming at me with experianced based thought even from a diferant field these ideas help me to learn and other chaps maybe too.
> goodon ya
> Stu


Hi Stu, thanks for the kindly response too my crash landing "raving" post  

Ade has described what i was going on about a lot better than I have but in answer to your question, yes why not run your supply water through a UV unit first to eliminate one potential source of disease; if setup right these things are brilliant. A few years ago I ran the aquatics in a shop that had all tanks individually filtered and isolated from each other, and dreaded the news we were getting new systems where banks of tanks would share the same water. As it turns out I never saw a single disease "jump" the UV. These things kill everything imho.



> Buddy all the tads at first are in individual glasses


I think this is the bit that has me confused. I've read all I can on livefoods, Viv design, live substrates, frog species choice , and it all makes sense but putting "fry" into individual glasses in a tiny volume of water, then adding potions to try and make up for the problems caused by the tiny water volume just seems weird. 

That said, I have raised exactly zero tads..

It just looks "wrong" to me though. Why do they need to be be in such tiny volumes of water? 

Chris


----------



## Wolfenrook

Some tadpoles, such as vents, die if kept in too much water. In the wild they are deposited in tiny volumes of water in broms, leaf axles and similar. As I described though, these environements have either natural filtration, leeching away of wastes and/or regular water changes from rain fall.

Plus, many species their tadpoles can't be kept together, as they will eat each other, hence they are kept in small individual containers.

It's surprising how many differences there are between raising dart tads and raising fish fry bud.

Ade


----------



## Sandsifter

Wolfenrook said:


> Deep tray with a drain, as you would your vivs.
> Small tad containers in tray.
> Drip bars arranged over tad containers.
> Some kind of reservoir (with your tadpole tea in it) rigged up to a low flow water pump.
> Timer.
> 
> Set it up so that the pump runs for say 30 minutes or longer, very slowly dripping water like gentle rainfall into the tad containers, very gently overflowing them (so that there is a current pulling the tadpoles out with the water).
> 
> Been so slow a drip, the water change will be VERY gradual, temperature changes wont occur and nor will very fast changes in water chemistry. So you wont see that shock you were concerned about, but you WILL be constantly diluting those nasty nitrogenous waste products.
> 
> 
> Ade


What about a basic under-gravel setup with a thick layer of gravel, cutoff pop bottles pushed into the gravel, with waterline level full of holes;very gentle flow, backed up by volume of water for stability? or layer of pond filter foam with individual tad pools cut out and flow coming from underneath - huge bio filter that can grow food on the walls?


----------



## Wolfenrook

That would be pretty much the same thing as Stu already has running for his other tads, except he uses an external rather than a UG. I see where you are coming from though, an air driven UG has a much much gentler flow than any pump driven filtration method.

There are a few people who use similar methods, only they use styrofoam rafts with holes for small cups/wax worm tubs which have tiny holes in the bottom.

Me, I've grown to prefer pumilios as they raise their own tads. lol

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> Hi Stu, thanks for the kindly response too my crash landing "raving" post
> 
> Ade has described what i was going on about a lot better than I have but in answer to your question, yes why not run your supply water through a UV unit first to eliminate one potential source of disease; if setup right these things are brilliant. A few years ago I ran the aquatics in a shop that had all tanks individually filtered and isolated from each other, and dreaded the news we were getting new systems where banks of tanks would share the same water. As it turns out I never saw a single disease "jump" the UV. These things kill everything imho.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is the bit that has me confused. I've read all I can on livefoods, Viv design, live substrates, frog species choice , and it all makes sense but putting "fry" into individual glasses in a tiny volume of water, then adding potions to try and make up for the problems caused by the tiny water volume just seems weird.
> 
> That said, I have raised exactly zero tads..
> 
> It just looks "wrong" to me though. Why do they need to be be in such tiny volumes of water?
> 
> Chris


 hey mate,Chris don't be daft,i could see why you were raving.Me old mate Ade has been educating me as you've seen,and from his eloquent posts of the reason for using these tad teas is evident,what we must remember that its when the tea was taken out that our first major problem occured and i'm kicking myself for the wrong call that i made. The teas i gues in your terms are not so much there to make up for tiny volmue of water,and problems asscociated with this, but more an effort to replicate the water quality, that said little guys are, exposed to in their native environment. where by and large most species tads are found in very small bodies of water.They i guess have evolved cirtain stategies to be able to live here,so we essentially are trying to replicate this.Chris when my first tad hatched with in a couple of days i noticed they seem to come up to the surface to breath air,i posted about it here,not sure whether on this thread or another,they all do it,when you couple this with the fact that for those first couple of days they are incredible week,especially my auratus(might be down to yourng parents),i would not want them personally in deeper water,literally its about a cm deep in that first delicate period,the minute they get going i start to increase the depth of water.
For obvious reasons my gizmo or devices such must seem so logical to you fish guys,but dart froggers don't use them for the above iguess, here they are used abit,in the states i believe my system that i have borrowed from others and then boshed about to a slight different design following my usual hunches is i think seen as inovative, juding by the feed back i have had. Dart tads seem by and large solitary animals,so there is talk of growth inhibitors secreteted by them and also the inherent risk with shared water and spread of disease.I have been warned by experianced keepers of this many times. All of this has lead me to where we are now little guys in small bodies of water,where up till now i have experianced minor problems but literally minor with this mouth fungus,as above no losses after first week,and then moving some on to the gizmo,but deemed as risk taking by some,some are being grown on in glasses so i can hopefully find the best method for us. At presant working with young parents,autatus, to have got a froglet out with good legs from the very first batch of eggs laid,and all morphing out good so far,i don't think we are too far from a decent working method,were damn close mate i feel,with Ade's wonderful help,and your thoughts spuring these conversations on,and a few tweaks,maybe not uv,maybe this WILL be the key factor,we might be able to nail this blummin fungus,and LMFAO give us even more problems as to the numbers of little people,that are gracing us with their presence:whistling2:.Chris i dosed all this new batch with alder cones those that had the fungus died those without all good. My next step will be following this path and also try out indian almond, i already have started to look into uv.At presant i wouldn't want all my tads in one body of water at first,not with what i have seen so far, from what i have observed. I have another possible option for cure of this fungus and that is saline as a treatment. I have to constantly appraise learn observe and modify untill i sort this,but we do have to remember there is a massive amount to learn with this,and i started keeping dartfrogs on feb 25th of this year,its not really very long in the big scheme. 
Ade i need time to read through all that you've said and get me bonce around it,i might have a few more q's for ya mate:Na_Na_Na_Na:,in and out with Shaz and quack so somewhat dis..ter..acted:lol2:

hmmm found little morphed guy halfway up their tub yesterday when i got in from graft,on the vert.... think i snapped him:blush:,so more good legs:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:
If the hunch with the mysties pans right,and doesn't backfire...OMG,then we do have a real close start to aworking method.
Thanks both of ya for your thoughts and imput,much appreciated
seeya
Stu


----------



## Sandsifter

soundstounite said:


> The teas, I guess in your terms are not so much there to make up for tiny volume of water,and problems associated with this, but more an effort to replicate the water quality, that said little guys are, exposed to in their native environment. where by and large most species tads are found in very small bodies of water.They i guess have evolved certain sratergies to be able to live here,so we essentially are trying to replicate this.Chris when my first tad hatched with in a couple of days i noticed they seem to come up to the surface to breath air,i posted about it here,not sure whether on this thread or another,they all do it,when you couple this with the fact that for those first couple of days they are incredible week,especially my auratus(might be down to young parents),i would not want them personally in deeper water,literally its about a cm deep in that first delicate period,the minute they get going i start to increase the depth of water.
> For obvious reasons my gizmo or devices such must seem so logical to you fish guys,but dart froggers don't use them for the above iguess, here they are used abit,in the states i believe my system that i have borrowed from others and then boshed about to a slight different design following my usual hunches is i think seen as inovative, juding by the feed back i have had. Dart tads seem by and large solitary animals,so there is talk of growth inhibitors secreteted by them and also the inherent risk with shared water and spread of disease.I have been warned by experianced keepers of this many times. All of this has lead me to where we are now little guys in small bodies of water,where up till now i have experianced minor problems but literally minor with this mouth fungus,as above no losses after first week,and then moving some on to the gizmo,but deemed as risk taking by some,some are being grown on in glasses so i can hopefully find the best method for us. At presant working with young parents,autatus, to have got a froglet out with good legs from the very first batch of eggs laid,and all morphing out good so far,i don't think we are too far from a decent working method,were damn close mate i feel,with Ade's wonderful help,and your thoughts spuring these conversations on,and a few tweaks,maybe not uv,maybe this WILL be the key factor,we might be able to nail this blummin fungus,and LMFAO give us even more problems as to the numbers of little people,that are gracing us with their presence:whistling2:.Chris i dosed all this new batch with alder cones those that had the fungus died those without all good. My next step will be following this path and also try out indian almond, i already have started to look into uv.At presant i wouldn't want all my tads in one body of water at first,not with what i have seen so far, from what i have observed. I have another possible option for cure of this fungus and that is saline as a treatment. I have to constantly appraise learn observe and modify untill i sort this,but we do have to remember there is a massive amount to learn with this,and i started keeping dartfrogs on feb 25th of this year,its not really very long in the big scheme.
> Ade i need time to read through all that you've said and get me bonce around it,i might have a few more q's for ya mate:Na_Na_Na_Na:,in and out with Shaz and quack so somewhat dis..ter..acted:lol2:
> 
> hmmm found little morphed guy halfway up their tub yesterday when i got in from graft,on the vert.... think i snapped him:blush:,so more good legs:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:
> If the hunch with the mysties pans right,and doesn't backfire...OMG,then we do have a real close start to aworking method.
> Thanks both of ya for your thoughts and imput,much appreciated
> seeya
> Stu


Stu, correct me if i'm wrong but your thinking is going;

"It's my fault" cause you failed to add the correct brew, as used by peeps who have a proven ability to raise tads. Reason for using this brew is bit hazy but its to do with "replicating the natural environment" and its not there to try and mask other problems with water quality.

I accept all you say about needing shallow water, weak swimming ability etc but those are things that can be sorted while still retaining decent water quality.

Growth inhibitors? So dilute them, change loads of water without stressing your animals, and run a UV unit.

Disease control through tea? Disease control is a nightmare if your a trader bringing in boxes of livestock from across the globe. If your a careful hobbyist like you, who sources good stock, then quarantines it, feeds and houses it well, then the likelihood of one of your tads infecting the others with anything is low. 

Its possible, but when set against all the stress of popping an aquatic creature into a tiny volume of water and bombarding it with the current cool medication/environmental replicator I just don't get it.

Chris


----------



## Sandsifter

Wolfenrook said:


> Some tadpoles, such as vents, die if kept in too much water. In the wild they are deposited in tiny volumes of water in broms, leaf axles and similar. As I described though, these environements have either natural filtration, leeching away of wastes and/or regular water changes from rain fall.
> 
> Plus, many species their tadpoles can't be kept together, as they will eat each other, hence they are kept in small individual containers.
> 
> It's surprising how many differences there are between raising dart tads and raising fish fry bud.
> 
> Ade


Hi Ade,

Im not so sure.

By too much water , I take it you mean depth? Not to difficult to have shallow and big volume surely? 

Cannibalism is nothing new and peeps were rearing cannibalistic Lobsters 20 years ago but I can't remember anyone involved suggesting that separating them in individual glasses was a good idea.

Im not so sure there are these big differences,

Chris


----------



## Wolfenrook

Chris, I am going to keep my reply very very very simple at this point. I truly believe that you should wait until you actually have some experience with raising tadpoles yourself before challenging established methods like this.

At the moment, you are going on the assumption that tadpoles are aquatic animals, they aren't. They are the larvae of terrestrial amphibians, and have adapted very different to your average fish or crustacean. Oh, and I am going to assume you mean crayfish rather than lobsters there? I have actually bred crayfish, and can tell you that people DO keep the young in small containers where they actually want the young to survive more than a few weeks. They just maintain water quality by regularly changing the water.

I've already gone into the mechanisms in nature that keep the tiny bodies of water good for the tadpoles. I've also gone into ways this can be replicated. However you are seriously underestimating the usefulness to tadpole tea. It's not the snake oil you seem to be labeling it as.

I also believe that I have posted the simplest solution, in the form of a drip system for water changes. It's a system you should be familiar with, as it's based on drip acllimitisation. A method that's proven for very sensitive animals like freshwater shrimp etc. Increasing the body of water by having the tads share the volume, then doing water changes as well is just making more work than is needed, and still comes with the risk of growth inhibiting hormones having an effect (they're something that has actually be observed. Current tadpole rearing methods are based on experiential research by keepers.).

Now to be clear, I DO agree that poor water quality is probably a factor here, I just don't agree with how you feel this should be combatted.
I DO agree with Stu that using tadpole tea helped to slow the problem down, at the end of the day there is real reasearch to back this up.
I DON'T believe Stu is at fault here, he's just trying to make 'best guesses' here. Mistakes happen.

I am however confused as to which tads you are raising in glasses Stu? Your Summersii haven't bred yet have they? To my knowledge your other tads should be fine in your rearing system? If your intent is comparitive research, then just see this as your control group proving the tad system's usefulness, and either switch to modified version of that for your tads, or give my drip system idea a shot, see how that works. 

End of the day, water changing is well established as the single most effective way of removing nitrogenous wastes already, along with other products of your animals. It even dilutes and reduces things like nitrates that are usually only removed by plants, anaerobic (read nasty) bacteria or fancy filters.

Oh and just to note, my understanding of mouth rot is that it's caused by a fungus. fungal spores are often airborne. You don't see it constantly because healthy animals are usually able to fight their attacks off. That's the thing I agree with Crhis with here, I strongly suspect that you have an underlying problem here, and it's likely to be water quality that's the problem. I think the fact you haven't had this problem in your tadpole system is just proof of this.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> Stu, correct me if i'm wrong but your thinking is going;
> 
> "It's my fault" cause you failed to add the correct brew, as used by peeps who have a proven ability to raise tads. Reason for using this brew is bit hazy but its to do with "replicating the natural environment" and its not there to try and mask other problems with water quality.
> 
> I accept all you say about needing shallow water, weak swimming ability etc but those are things that can be sorted while still retaining decent water quality.
> 
> Growth inhibitors? So dilute them, change loads of water without stressing your animals, and run a UV unit.
> 
> Disease control through tea? Disease control is a nightmare if your a trader bringing in boxes of livestock from across the globe. If your a careful hobbyist like you, who sources good stock, then quarantines it, feeds and houses it well, then the likelihood of one of your tads infecting the others with anything is low.
> 
> Its possible, but when set against all the stress of popping an aquatic creature into a tiny volume of water and bombarding it with the current cool medication/environmental replicator I just don't get it.
> 
> Chris


Hey mate yes i do believe,loosing so many tadpoles is my fault from this batch,because i diliberately removed the tea,thinking this was where the small problem lay,i was wrong ,i think the tea acidifies the water slightly and adds taninns (maybe from what i now have learnt not the most effective ones),and yes a bit hazey,which is due to not having a full understanding of what the fungus actually is, whether it is external,or to do with the tads systems and the chemistry invoved. and absolutly its not there to mask water quality,but my understanding to make said water closer to what the animals sees in its native environment as you have said. That is not to say that there might not be an underlying problem with my water,that you and Ade have illustrated might be rectified by uv.
i see what your saying in the last paragraph,i think that your missing that these tads have evolved to be deposited in tiny volumes of water,its the niche they exploit, that niche seems to have these tannins presant naturally hence the teas.
i have also been told that this might be bacterial or an immune system problem with the tads and this early ocurrance in the first days of life,could be to do with the organ that the tad uses to grab onto dad not detaching properly,not sure whether i have chucked that into the mix before.
Chris whether we end up agreeing /disagreeing on this in the final outcome matters not to me what is really important is that these reasoned debates take place and we all learn little bits from them,its a pleasure listening to your thought mate,and you making me think and also learn from them.....cheers dude 
regards
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Chris, I am going to keep my reply very very very simple at this point. I truly believe that you should wait until you actually have some experience with raising tadpoles yourself before challenging established methods like this.
> 
> At the moment, you are going on the assumption that tadpoles are aquatic animals, they aren't. They are the larvae of terrestrial amphibians, and have adapted very different to your average fish or crustacean. Oh, and I am going to assume you mean crayfish rather than lobsters there? I have actually bred crayfish, and can tell you that people DO keep the young in small containers where they actually want the young to survive more than a few weeks. They just maintain water quality by regularly changing the water.
> 
> I've already gone into the mechanisms in nature that keep the tiny bodies of water good for the tadpoles. I've also gone into ways this can be replicated. However you are seriously underestimating the usefulness to tadpole tea. It's not the snake oil you seem to be labeling it as.
> 
> I also believe that I have posted the simplest solution, in the form of a drip system for water changes. It's a system you should be familiar with, as it's based on drip acllimitisation. A method that's proven for very sensitive animals like freshwater shrimp etc. Increasing the body of water by having the tads share the volume, then doing water changes as well is just making more work than is needed, and still comes with the risk of growth inhibiting hormones having an effect (they're something that has actually be observed. Current tadpole rearing methods are based on experiential research by keepers.).
> 
> Now to be clear, I DO agree that poor water quality is probably a factor here, I just don't agree with how you feel this should be combatted.
> I DO agree with Stu that using tadpole tea helped to slow the problem down, at the end of the day there is real reasearch to back this up.
> I DON'T believe Stu is at fault here, he's just trying to make 'best guesses' here. Mistakes happen.
> 
> I am however confused as to which tads you are raising in glasses Stu? Your Summersii haven't bred yet have they? To my knowledge your other tads should be fine in your rearing system? If your intent is comparitive research, then just see this as your control group proving the tad system's usefulness, and either switch to modified version of that for your tads, or give my drip system idea a shot, see how that works.
> 
> End of the day, water changing is well established as the single most effective way of removing nitrogenous wastes already, along with other products of your animals. It even dilutes and reduces things like nitrates that are usually only removed by plants, anaerobic (read nasty) bacteria or fancy filters.
> 
> Oh and just to note, my understanding of mouth rot is that it's caused by a fungus. fungal spores are often airborne. You don't see it constantly because healthy animals are usually able to fight their attacks off. That's the thing I agree with Crhis with here, I strongly suspect that you have an underlying problem here, and it's likely to be water quality that's the problem. I think the fact you haven't had this problem in your tadpole system is just proof of this.
> 
> Ade


 hey mate, i am holding myself responsible mate,because i now think i made a bad call,but ,as you say it was a best guess call,made with good intentions thats all one can do, i appreciate your sentiments mate.
Ade i'm only breeding auratus and mysteriousus,my reference to control is slighly left field as i think the mysties need uvb to morph properly so have them under 2 levels of lighting.
Ade i think summersi need to be in a group to breed,my male still hasen't called to my knowledge,but he is old enough,but thats a real side track.
I think my problem is only appearing in the glasses because thats where i have the very young tadpols,i can watch them closely,and manipulate waterl evels as they need,i think the problem is maybe related to the mouth organ not detaching properly that they use to hold onto dad,like a chucks egg tooth,there is a caviat to this i can't see or prove or disprove that this exists and still have more more to do to find out the truth here.
of course there might be an underlying problem with my water.
at presant i can't test your theory by chucking babies into the tad system as its at capacity. coupled with i do have tads as large in glasses and no problems there this is baby tadpol related i'm convinced of it,either method has produced froglets (but of course not many yet).
Ade once these larger frogs kick in and we have overcome the young parents breeding for the first time stages and associated problems,then a batch of 24 is nothing, it is so inadequate its not true,that is if guys are getting the same results, livability of hatched eggs,as me. Not every one chucks out what they do as openly as i have,i have been told to expect losses of 10% in larger dendros to this,i'm well below this,untill this incident as i wasn't really prepared to accept this,and hence made the move i did,wrongly which led to me telling folks,i wonder how many others do that.For sure it would be great here for 20 established breeders with 10plus yrs of doing this whom keep records to chime in with what they lose to this,then we'll all know how much of a problem i really have,all i've got so far is a guy whom i respect with around 7 yrs under his belt tell me to expect this,expect 100% mortality to this and to expect around 10 % of tads to secumbe to this.
This wonderful debate is out there for all to learn from to delve into and think upon,but we are keeping darts in captivity we strip them of their essence ie the poisons, which we really have no idea of the consequences of , we try our damndest to do the best for them,but i don't think any of us will see 100% livability in all tads 100% morph no sls,it is livestock after all. To take this further i have rasied seroiusly lots of birds, as you and Chris have fish,can we really expect to rear all our dart tadpoles (just dendrobates) in exactly the same way...i doubt it. This hobby is in its infancy compared to poultry compared to fish keeping,much to learn here,part of its appeal,but it would be outlandish to think that there is never gonna be losses,livestock just itsn't like that.
What i'm trying so ineloquently to say here is if we takeout my mistake, we are debating that 10% that die, only them,despite live food despite rainwater despite US totally bewildered novices despite a plastic tray not glass,and all the other things we don't do by the book,i am not worried :lol2yet ) about those little guys swimming about upstairs,untill those little mysties start to morph,if i get them out in one peice it will be a bloody miracle...most don't as far as i know...not the first any way,,we don't want to loose sight of that. There is a method here that is by and large working,we have to nail down that last bit. 
good stuff guys
Stu


----------



## Sandsifter

Wolfenrook said:


> Chris, I am going to keep my reply very very very simple at this point. I truly believe that you should wait until you actually have some experience with raising tadpoles yourself before challenging established methods like this.
> 
> At the moment, you are going on the assumption that tadpoles are aquatic animals, they aren't. They are the larvae of terrestrial amphibians, and have adapted very different to your average fish or crustacean. Oh, and I am going to assume you mean crayfish rather than lobsters there? I have actually bred crayfish, and can tell you that people DO keep the young in small containers where they actually want the young to survive more than a few weeks. They just maintain water quality by regularly changing the water.
> 
> I've already gone into the mechanisms in nature that keep the tiny bodies of water good for the tadpoles. I've also gone into ways this can be replicated. However you are seriously underestimating the usefulness to tadpole tea. It's not the snake oil you seem to be labeling it as.
> 
> I also believe that I have posted the simplest solution, in the form of a drip system for water changes. It's a system you should be familiar with, as it's based on drip acllimitisation. A method that's proven for very sensitive animals like freshwater shrimp etc. Increasing the body of water by having the tads share the volume, then doing water changes as well is just making more work than is needed, and still comes with the risk of growth inhibiting hormones having an effect (they're something that has actually be observed. Current tadpole rearing methods are based on experiential research by keepers.).
> 
> Now to be clear, I DO agree that poor water quality is probably a factor here, I just don't agree with how you feel this should be combatted.
> I DO agree with Stu that using tadpole tea helped to slow the problem down, at the end of the day there is real reasearch to back this up.
> I DON'T believe Stu is at fault here, he's just trying to make 'best guesses' here. Mistakes happen.
> 
> I am however confused as to which tads you are raising in glasses Stu? Your Summersii haven't bred yet have they? To my knowledge your other tads should be fine in your rearing system? If your intent is comparitive research, then just see this as your control group proving the tad system's usefulness, and either switch to modified version of that for your tads, or give my drip system idea a shot, see how that works.
> 
> End of the day, water changing is well established as the single most effective way of removing nitrogenous wastes already, along with other products of your animals. It even dilutes and reduces things like nitrates that are usually only removed by plants, anaerobic (read nasty) bacteria or fancy filters.
> 
> Oh and just to note, my understanding of mouth rot is that it's caused by a fungus. fungal spores are often airborne. You don't see it constantly because healthy animals are usually able to fight their attacks off. That's the thing I agree with Crhis with here, I strongly suspect that you have an underlying problem here, and it's likely to be water quality that's the problem. I think the fact you haven't had this problem in your tadpole system is just proof of this.
> 
> Ade


HI Ade,

First up, sorry for getting your hackles up. I'm not the best communicator in the world at times, and lack the highly effective WF (Wife filter) when online. 

I'm not trying to discredit anyone or any particular method, just trying to get my head around it all before commiting. Please don't take anything I say as any kind of personal attack. It's not. Sorry also for not responding or thanking you for your links. My free-time is pretty short atm and I wish i had just kept reading rather than landing in and causing upset through ill mannered posts. Wasn't my intention Ade. 

Chris


----------



## Sandsifter

Wolfenrook said:


> I also believe that I have posted the simplest solution, in the form of a drip system for water changes. It's a system you should be familiar with, as it's based on drip acllimitisation. A method that's proven for very sensitive animals like freshwater shrimp etc.


All too familiar with it Ade, do it week in week out and love it and hate it.

Love the survival rates of marine fish when its done on a quiet day. Hate the trying to watch over it on a busy one.


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## About-Snakes.com

i cannot express my jealousy with words


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## soundstounite

About-Snakes.com said:


> i cannot express my jealousy with words


 thanks dude:welcome:



o this was a few days ago now
but kinda worth the wait as they all are,i missed the one straight ootw half way up the tub side but this is pretty cute huh,we have noticed that these are green rather than the blue ickle mate is now,but unsure as to if he was this colour originally,we now have 4 little hurbuts bouncing around:flrt:









seeya
Stu


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## Sandsifter

soundstounite said:


> A little bit of tadpol fun me thinks,we start them in little glasses just a bit of water say 1cm i have experianced a few losses to something called mouth rot,its not lots just here and there,i think its down to our oak leaves getting old,so all the guys that have hatched in the last few days have no tad tea,no oakleaf just our rainwater and a bit of algae,grown on some elodea.Mouth rot can also be caused by feeding too high protien to early apparently,but seen as we don't give them anything first week anyway thats scuppered that one. I must reiterate we are not losing many but you guys need to know the good and the bad,if we have got a tad past week one,then its still here so far!!!!!!!!!! little pic of a teeny tiny mystie tad d/o bless,they are proper small but you can see them eyes much better than the auratus
> image
> Here are a few more of the little people that have graced our presance in the last few days,auratus hatches much much stronger now
> image you'll note a green tray in a later pic thats full of new born too really really good week this one.
> We will add tad tea gently as they get older and check that when we have an oakleaf to be used that it doen't leave any film on the water after being submerged for a couple of days,so a slight change to try and upgrade just a bit more and get to that elusive 100 tad livability.
> As the tads get older they were going into the gizmo,what i would do is stand their glass in the corner and then leave so temperatures equalised trying to mimimise shock to the tad then slit water with gizmos water then in the tadpol goes. Hopefully the new crop of fresh oakleaves will aliviate some of the above problems.As far as the gizmo goes all good so far,the first tadpols are comming out ok we think,only one problem its way too small and when our room is oneday full and of breeding age frogs,not something i'm rushing to do,this system will be utterly inadequate if they all took the view of breeding at the same timethere is now no doubt of this in my mind. The actual design is sound so far no problems we like,i do do partial water changes just be cause i can really and its an absolute doddle takes around a minute so although i probably don't need to always trying to keep ahead of any potential problems by doing that bit extra,no worries so far about hormones supressing growth,the fear will always be a disease of some form knocking out the lot,part of the logic behind the water changes is they get fresh water regularly in a rainforest so an attempt to emulate this can't hurt and as before just so easy.
> gizmo at capacity
> image
> oh and before i move on just a tad:blush: here's the shelf currantly housing the babies,note the clip top tupperware from tesco...that the simplist incubator i've ever used:mf_dribble:ha and the cheepest!!!
> image
> All glasses are part submerged in water just an effort to stabilise temps a little bit,but more thought needed here,we like starting them in glasses,but its not good use of space this way.
> Here's another auratus just before it comes out of the gizmo and goes into a morph out tub
> image
> image
> which is,simply a low tupperware on the tilt in a larger curver box is our presant method but am formulating a design for a proper grow out rack as we speak,but thats for abit later have to sort out the next 3 backgrounds first and stop thinking about who, the hell we want to put in them. and build something...DOH
> So to pretty much wrap up most of what we have learnt so far about dart tads and our methods here's the end result our second little froglet,hours ootw,and looking ok standing well and the obsevant will note 2 more right be hind him,moved at the very last minute: as the tails were shrinking, hoping that they had stopped feeding and they would decide to munch on each other....not ideal but getting there huh!!
> image
> and one more of second froglet coooooooool:mf_dribble:
> image
> Now if we can just maintain this and get them damn mysties out without sls we will be stoked,wow man back in feb all i was thinking is have i imputted enough to be worthy of keeping darts are we REAlLY ready,this stuff is really meant to be next year,and has slowed progress on other fronts for sure as you need to learn another set of skills.
> bloody good fun though
> c'mom mysties
> Stu
> 
> ps macheto's good so far


Why the use of Elodea/Egeria or whatever its called atm Stu? There's something rattling around my head that it has anti algal properties. No doubt wrong as usual though 

This a plant recommended to you or a trial?

Chris


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## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> Why the use of Elodea/Egeria or whatever its called atm Stu? There's something rattling around my head that it has anti algal properties. No doubt wrong as usual though
> 
> This a plant recommended to you or a trial?
> 
> Chris


 totally trial buddy er i grow it in the green house and its covered in algae, :blush: :lol2:, oh well mate (i know how much your thoughts have made me think and i'll always appreciate that:no1 have noticed the aurtus especially seem to munch it as well as the algea,my thought was its oygenating properties,at first ,but there is something else observation driven about dart tads comming to the top and grabbing air so i don't know how much it benefits them,my logic was small body of water try and get O2 in there.Ha Chris the plot thickens in that some tadpols are keeping the algae down some i'm having to remove it,an individual thing not species related.They are more detritis feeders than the green algea ,might just be spyrogyra,definitely filimentous,that we seem to grow,but some seem to really like it. i have 2 auratus the same age same hatch and they for some reason have massacered their elodea,maybe this stuff is yeast extract( oh hell trade name) to tads. i also chuck in bits of duck weed as well here and there they munch that abit too,but sparingly concearns have been rasied about them getting tangled,but we haven't seen that. .
Oh on a related point really check plants added to tad water and wash thoroughly then check again...and again,we very nearly popped in a couple of dragon fly or similar nymphs the other day....that would have been good eh:devil:.
Chris when actually feeding the live blood worms the tads go in to a bit of a frenzie, i guess is the word, they are hyped up thats for sure anything moving that touches them they turn and try to nail it,watched a little guy grab and shake the hell out of an elodea root (?) the other day he killed it proper dead before letting go,had us in stiches.
mate still all good shhhhh he said touching wood.
Hmm i thought they were slowing up a bit i thought that yesterday morning,ha wrong both auratus females and a mystie laid on cue just to make me look stupid again:lol2:...shows how much i know,lmao,glad mystie laid though ...bloody huge,thank god nothing synaster
regards mate 
Stu


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## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> totally trial buddy er i grow it in the green house and its covered in algae, :blush: :lol2:, oh well mate (i know how much your thoughts have made me think and i'll always appreciate that:no1 have noticed the aurtus especially seem to munch it as well as the algea,my thought was its oygenating properties,at first ,but there is something else observation driven about dart tads comming to the top and grabbing air so i don't know how much it benefits them,my logic was small body of water try and get O2 in there.Ha Chris the plot thickens in that some tadpols are keeping the algae down some i'm having to remove it,an individual thing not species related.They are more detritis feeders than the green algea ,might just be spyrogyra,definitely filimentous,that we seem to grow,but some seem to really like it. i have 2 auratus the same age same hatch and they for some reason have massacered their elodea,maybe this stuff is yeast extract( oh hell trade name) to tads. i also chuck in bits of duck weed as well here and there they munch that abit too,but sparingly concearns have been rasied about them getting tangled,but we haven't seen that. .
> Oh on a related point really check plants added to tad water and wash thoroughly then check again...and again,we very nearly popped in a couple of dragon fly or similar nymphs the other day....that would have been good eh:devil:.
> Chris when actually feeding the live blood worms the tads go in to a bit of a frenzie, i guess is the word, they are hyped up thats for sure anything moving that touches them they turn and try to nail it,watched a little guy grab and shake the hell out of an elodea root (?) the other day he killed it proper dead before letting go,had us in stiches.
> mate still all good shhhhh he said touching wood.
> Hmm i thought they were slowing up a bit i thought that yesterday morning,ha wrong both auratus females and a mystie laid on cue just to make me look stupid again:lol2:...shows how much i know,lmao,glad mystie laid though ...bloody huge,thank god nothing synaster
> regards mate
> Stu


 At the very least, Stu, you are giving them a more balanced diet! For all you diss yourself, you are using your instincts/accumilated knowledge- and it works.


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## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> At the very least, Stu, you are giving them a more balanced diet! For all you diss yourself, you are using your instincts/accumilated knowledge- and it works.


 Yeah it is working Ron,our new batch is going well one week loss,kinda expected,i've never had problems laughing at me Ron,life's too short not too:2thumb: with any livestock there will be keeper errors,its real important to me to show when it goes wrong,to pass the good tips and the mistakes foward, for the next guy.My mad brand of humour allows for me to bosh meself occassionally,but not get down about it,how could one with all this going on be down,its awsome mate. The addition of the Alder tea might just have seen the back of this wretched fungus Ron,it is very sad that i had to learn this this way, losing so many tads from our best hatch so far all in one hit its blatently obvious how much we care about our little guys,but,as hard as this lesson has been I'm phylisophical about it,if we have now played the right card which i think we have,this hard lesson will benefit all our other little tads,comming along,so the big scheme is hugely posative. above and beyond that the whole thing is working Ron i wish you could actually see it in the flesh mate,and all these little people too,tis bewildering,when you consider actually how long we have had the frogs themselves,and they are not letting up yet at all.If this is any solice mate,i can put my hand on heart and say i am doing the utter best i can,and thats as much as any dude can say same applys to shaz. To have this now, so soon,no losses of older tadpols little froglets bouncing aboutwith good legs,well its about as good as it gets mate.thanks for the constant support matey, better get onit little friends to chat with and find grub for...much to do!!!!!!!!!! 
woods doing Ron?
regards
Stu


----------



## Sandsifter

soundstounite said:


> totally trial buddy er i grow it in the green house and its covered in algae, :blush: :lol2:, oh well mate (i know how much your thoughts have made me think and i'll always appreciate that:no1 have noticed the aurtus especially seem to munch it as well as the algea,my thought was its oygenating properties,at first ,but there is something else observation driven about dart tads comming to the top and grabbing air so i don't know how much it benefits them,my logic was small body of water try and get O2 in there.Ha Chris the plot thickens in that some tadpols are keeping the algae down some i'm having to remove it,an individual thing not species related.They are more detritis feeders than the green algea ,might just be spyrogyra,definitely filimentous,that we seem to grow,but some seem to really like it. i have 2 auratus the same age same hatch and they for some reason have massacered their elodea,maybe this stuff is yeast extract( oh hell trade name) to tads. i also chuck in bits of duck weed as well here and there they munch that abit too,but sparingly concearns have been rasied about them getting tangled,but we haven't seen that. .
> Oh on a related point really check plants added to tad water and wash thoroughly then check again...and again,we very nearly popped in a couple of dragon fly or similar nymphs the other day....that would have been good eh:devil:.
> Chris when actually feeding the live blood worms the tads go in to a bit of a frenzie, i guess is the word, they are hyped up thats for sure anything moving that touches them they turn and try to nail it,watched a little guy grab and shake the hell out of an elodea root (?) the other day he killed it proper dead before letting go,had us in stiches.
> mate still all good shhhhh he said touching wood.
> Hmm i thought they were slowing up a bit i thought that yesterday morning,ha wrong both auratus females and a mystie laid on cue just to make me look stupid again:lol2:...shows how much i know,lmao,glad mystie laid though ...bloody huge,thank god nothing synaster
> regards mate
> Stu


So your thinking is to use them as oxygenators by lighting your wee glasses 24/7? :whistling2: 

Could the "individual" interest ,among a particular species in eating "algae" in these unique wee worlds you have created,be due to what appears to be "algae" actually being a lot more variable than we can see. Have you tried swopping them about? Guess a bloodworm larvae must be a very big deal growing up in a tiny or overcrowded broodsite - maybe the edge that makes you top dog later so worth the effort?

According to my 15 year old "reference" book on darts you are supposed to squeeze any bloodworm to "break" the chitin layer before dart tads can eat them..

Searched on google and found nothing, but still a rattle going on about anti algal properties in elodea.


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## Ron Magpie

Yep, the woods are slowly increasing, I've started introducing them to some of my tanks- they may take a while to establish in any numbers, but it's a start. :2thumb:


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## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> So your thinking is to use them as oxygenators by lighting your wee glasses 24/7? :whistling2:
> 
> Could the "individual" interest ,among a particular species in eating "algae" in these unique wee worlds you have created,be due to what appears to be "algae" actually being a lot more variable than we can see. Have you tried swopping them about? Guess a bloodworm larvae must be a very big deal growing up in a tiny or overcrowded broodsite - maybe the edge that makes you top dog later so worth the effort?
> 
> According to my 15 year old "reference" book on darts you are supposed to squeeze any bloodworm to "break" the chitin layer before dart tads can eat them..
> 
> Searched on google and found nothing, but still a rattle going on about anti algal properties in elodea.


 leds on a roughly 12 hour cycle Chris,uvb around 8 er i think ...very tierdha can't think quite straight.yes i think the algea in these microchosms could be different,maybe the individual knows what it needs at a given point (holds hands up), no i haven't tried moving them around,it hadn't occured to me.I think your book might have a point ie: dijestion seems incomplete,in what they pass,that said no problems with tads that have consumed them whatsoever,get this spent hrs yesterday hand pulling live grub for tads then in a few minutes clobbered 100% more in a new water butt,ha no natural predators yet,is our summerisation,proper funny though:mf_dribble:
Stu
ps pics will follow...on algea/elodea


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## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Yep, the woods are slowly increasing, I've started introducing them to some of my tanks- they may take a while to establish in any numbers, but it's a start. :2thumb:


cool : victory: damn slow,they are, but your on your way
rock'n'roll
Stu


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## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> cool : victory: damn slow,they are, but your on your way
> rock'n'roll
> Stu


Yep, as I said to Wolfie (I think!) it will be interesting to see how they manage in the 'artificial ecosystems' in my tanks; there are native woodlice and all kinds of other crawlies introduced with the leafmould, plus compost worms and the odd stray cricket that a frog hasn't nabbed yet- I figure each tank will probably find it's own balance- which will be educational to watch. I've even got European woodlice and (accidentally introduced) dermestid beetles in my corn snake tank, which clean up pretty well with just occasional spot cleaning.


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## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Yep, as I said to Wolfie (I think!) it will be interesting to see how they manage in the 'artificial ecosystems' in my tanks; there are native woodlice and all kinds of other crawlies introduced with the leafmould, plus compost worms and the odd stray cricket that a frog hasn't nabbed yet- I figure each tank will probably find it's own balance- which will be educational to watch. I've even got European woodlice and (accidentally introduced) dermestid beetles in my corn snake tank, which clean up pretty well with just occasional spot cleaning.


 agreed Ron,we have 3 species destined for viv plus the odd native lerking i guess,just waiting on the giant orange to get big enough gonna try a few adults in some of the tanks with frogs,and have to get some of the little fast peruvians into tanks too,i'm hoping they will find different niches,and not compete with each other,it will be great to have 3 different types on the diet,self regulating,if it works that is. I've tanked to some of our american friends on this,there is a stiped species that is also used over there.This one seems to dominate over time in a viv,fascinating to see where it all goes

regards
Stu


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## Sandsifter

soundstounite said:


> leds on a roughly 12 hour cycle Chris,uvb around 8 er i think ...very tierdha can't think quite straight.yes i think the algea in these microchosms could be different,maybe the individual knows what it needs at a given point (holds hands up), no i haven't tried moving them around,it hadn't occured to me.I think your book might have a point ie: dijestion seems incomplete,in what they pass,that said no problems with tads that have consumed them whatsoever,get this spent hrs yesterday hand pulling live grub for tads then in a few minutes clobbered 100% more in a new water butt,ha no natural predators yet,is our summerisation,proper funny though:mf_dribble:
> Stu
> ps pics will follow...on algea/elodea


So the " oxygenator" bit has to be bollocks then surely? As an oxygenator anyway 

Not got my head around this UVB stuff yet though. Totally confused but giving the choice seems the sensible approach?

Said book has an advertising photograph every second paragraph, so I take its advise with just a wee bit of cynicism, however well intentioned the peeps that created it were.

Do you guys ever use white-worm cultures? They are easy to raise in number but have always had a bad rep, in aquatics literature anyway, as "fatty" and "bad". I'm totally clueless if they deserve that "box" or not, and if they do, is it down to the diet fed the worms or something about the worms themselves that makes them "fatty"..

What have you heard/read/ thought?

Chris


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## Ron Magpie

Whiteworms are like most other live foods- ok in moderation, as part of a mixed diet.


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## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> So the " oxygenator" bit has to be bollocks then surely? As an oxygenator anyway
> 
> Not got my head around this UVB stuff yet though. Totally confused but giving the choice seems the sensible approach?
> 
> Said book has an advertising photograph every second paragraph, so I take its advise with just a wee bit of cynicism, however well intentioned the peeps that created it were.
> 
> Do you guys ever use white-worm cultures? They are easy to raise in number but have always had a bad rep, in aquatics literature anyway, as "fatty" and "bad". I'm totally clueless if they deserve that "box" or not, and if they do, is it down to the diet fed the worms or something about the worms themselves that makes them "fatty"..
> 
> What have you heard/read/ thought?
> 
> Chris


 elodea oygenating could well be mate,i see little bubbles comming off,but where exactly glasses gimzo not sure off the top of me bonce.
The uvb light over tads could be a risk,i've been advised against it,read papers that implicate tads do not have the sense to get out of it,but not all are getting the same dose,i'm hedging my bets really chris.My hunch is the mysties might need it,more than other darts,i might be barking mad but if it works and i don't see sls in the first ones,then it will be worth it...i need to find this one out,its a big worry sls and mystie tads.
I think Ron has covered the last bit mate,there are so many different foods from complete in one diets i am trying to give as varied as possible,my hunch is that the stuff from a water butt where the bloodworms and mossi larvae,and the other little gnat larvea we see and feed will all have fed on slightly different things from decaying leaves to insects that fall in,so will have many little different trace elements in there guts to pass on fresh to the tads,the other benefit is of course if i give them too much its not likely to pollute the water,i have fed the occassion ww,i sometimes get them in the springtail cultures,but not often i definitly prefer at presant going as near to nature as i can,with aquatic live stuff,we haven't seen daphnia here but thats something else i have thought about,back to it more tads to sort
cheers mate
stu


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## soundstounite

We've mused greatly over little tads over the last couple of weeks,the new batch are showing no signs of the dreaded mouth fungus as yet,another biggish hatch,but very slow and drawn out,this time,i'd love to know why these hatches are so erratic,anyway a few shots mainly for chris but also to focus on the later stages of tad developement,seen as we are about to have more little guys to care for legs are popping out very quick at presant,3 are immenant to morph note the amount of colour which arrives so quick in these super blues as they change from tad to frog,here's some of that elodea covered in algae








some shots of different cubicals /boxes in the gizmo to illustrate different algae levels in each down mainly to tad grazing methinks rather than light, as above note the tad colour this is moving in hours almost at this late stage






















































So as the days pass by after the heartbreak of the tads lost,we are becomming more relaxed,the aldercones seem to have nailed this,whether it will be back remains to be seen but each day without it points to the lack of tad tea being the reason why we saw this outbreak and then not any more . So my thought now is that either we have a fungus that is airbourne and the tannins protect the tads against this or there is something in our rainwate,and the tannins have the same result. reading up it appears that alder might be much stronger than cappata which is deemed stronger than oak in tannin strength,so we'll follow this regime for now to see what happens. little froglets that recently hatched are now looking well fed,great to see and 'iclke mate is growing like a damn weed incredible rate actually,but them if you look back abit to that pic of him/her at 3weeks i guess whats new applies there.Much is written about not feeding darts too much,i wonder if this applies only to man made grub whether the live wild stuff is somehow metabolised differently,no conclusions as always more thoughts
seeya
Stu


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## Sandsifter

Ron Magpie said:


> Whiteworms are like most other live foods- ok in moderation, as part of a mixed diet.


Cheers Ron, that's how i understand them as a fish food so what your saying makes total sense. What i don't have a clue about is if they deserve the "fatty" label because of the way they are typically cultured or it's something to do with the white-worms themselves. 

Guess the only sensible conclusion is add them to the list and use in moderation as you say.

Ta.

Chris


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## Sandsifter

soundstounite said:


> We've mused greatly over little tads over the last couple of weeks,the new batch are showing no signs of the dreaded mouth fungus as yet,another biggish hatch,but very slow and drawn out,this time,i'd love to know why these hatches are so erratic,anyway a few shots mainly for chris but also to focus on the later stages of tad developement,seen as we are about to have more little guys to care for legs are popping out very quick at presant,3 are immenant to morph note the amount of colour which arrives so quick in these super blues as they change from tad to frog,here's some of that elodea covered in algae
> image
> some shots of different cubicals /boxes in the gizmo to illustrate different algae levels in each down mainly to tad grazing methinks rather than light, as above note the tad colour this is moving in hours almost at this late stage
> 
> image
> 
> image
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> So as the days pass by after the heartbreak of the tads lost,we are becomming more relaxed,the aldercones seem to have nailed this,whether it will be back remains to be seen but each day without it points to the lack of tad tea being the reason why we saw this outbreak and then not any more . So my thought now is that either we have a fungus that is airbourne and the tannins protect the tads against this or there is something in our rainwate,and the tannins have the same result. reading up it appears that alder might be much stronger than cappata which is deemed stronger than oak in tannin strength,so we'll follow this regime for now to see what happens. little froglets that recently hatched are now looking well fed,great to see and 'iclke mate is growing like a damn weed incredible rate actually,but them if you look back abit to that pic of him/her at 3weeks i guess whats new applies there.Much is written about not feeding darts too much,i wonder if this applies only to man made grub whether the live wild stuff is somehow metabolised differently,no conclusions as always more thoughts
> seeya
> Stu


Thx for putting up the photos Stu.

Elodea covered in algae I've seen before but still have a, maybe dysfunctional, brain cell flashing away. Ho hum.

Looks like pretty dramatic differences in the algae eating though. That seems curious?

Hear you on the UVB, and now sure I can be sure there are known unknowns and unknown unknowns  

I do my best not to look at the progression of your tads, what species is what, or anything to actually do with the frogs themselves. Shot myself in the foot by visiting dendrobase for the first time though.. omg.

Stick to live food culture, stick to live food culture, stick..

Chris


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## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> Thx for putting up the photos Stu.
> 
> Elodea covered in algae I've seen before but still have a, maybe dysfunctional, brain cell flashing away. Ho hum.
> 
> Looks like pretty dramatic differences in the algae eating though. That seems curious?
> 
> Hear you on the UVB, and now sure I can be sure there are known unknowns and unknown unknowns
> 
> I do my best not to look at the progression of your tads, what species is what, or anything to actually do with the frogs themselves. Shot myself in the foot by visiting dendrobase for the first time though.. omg.
> 
> Stick to live food culture, stick to live food culture, stick..
> 
> Chris


We are breeding 2 species Chris,these pics are all superblue auratus,we also have mysteriosus,which is know to be very slow to develope, extremely so.The uvb is mainly aimed at the mysties,thats where i'm playing with fire,they are noted for comming out with sls,spindle leg syndrome,at least for a good while, i know of this on several occassions. They live on cliffs so our hunch that we're playing is the get more uvb than normal darts,on the forest floor. If we get the first ones out with good front legs it will be a massive result,as they are expected to have sls,i feel i have nothing to loose by trying. Some of them are being reared with way less uvb,if they come good then i am either damn lucky (well that don't happen so we can rule that out right now:bash or it must be the live stuff,fingers crossed mate we don't see the sls ,it will break our hearts if we dh sls can be a problem with all dart frogs,its always been our biggest worry,to have got as far as we have with very young frogs (auratus) is a huge achievement we feel,regardless of them being a know beginners frog.....oh just in and all tads good no fungus at all!!,plus little guys in the pics all have 4 good legs
bring it on
Stu


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## Sandsifter

I know what frogs you are breeding from your previous posts, but its safer not to think about them to much.. 

Maybe they will get more UVB tucked down between Brom leaves, in what looks like the Scottish highlands with LSD induced planting on the cliffs :gasp: than on the forest floor. (i've spent my few free hours gawping at the biotope pics on dendrobase, so bit of an expert now   !) Not a clue.

But the site also goes on about the "big" volumes of water in the Mysties/secrets Brom's .

That'll be small volumes compared to beakers used in raising tads, but, as Ade pointed out, the plant itself is presumably having a huge role soaking up nitrogenous compounds, just as a tad keeper might do through water changes or a filter. 

What's unclear to me, is; I guess frog keepers going out and exploring habitats naturally only measure what they think is important and does that include the water chemistry in those broms? Struggling to find much info on the make up of the water they hold tbh. Is that because i'm new to this or I've missed a really obvious link/read?

Where's the tannin input on a cliff face on top of a mountain? If the plants are soaking up all the organics that drive a low pH and there's also a slow input of insect skeletons, maybe snail shells and other carbonate sources, then what does the water in those brom leaves actually look like? Is it actually a lot higher and more stable than the water produced by your brews will produce?

Chris

PS If I had ever looked any of you frog pictures I'd prob have FF cultures on the go right now. Damn how did that happen 

Chris,


----------



## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> I know what frogs you are breeding from your previous posts, but its safer not to think about them to much..
> 
> Maybe they will get more UVB tucked down between Brom leaves, in what looks like the Scottish highlands with LSD induced planting on the cliffs :gasp: than on the forest floor. (i've spent my few free hours gawping at the biotope pics on dendrobase, so bit of an expert now   !) Not a clue.
> 
> But the site also goes on about the "big" volumes of water in the Mysties/secrets Brom's .
> 
> That'll be small volumes compared to beakers used in raising tads, but, as Ade pointed out, the plant itself is presumably having a huge role soaking up nitrogenous compounds, just as a tad keeper might do through water changes or a filter.
> 
> What's unclear to me, is; I guess frog keepers going out and exploring habitats naturally only measure what they think is important and does that include the water chemistry in those broms? Struggling to find much info on the make up of the water they hold tbh. Is that because i'm new to this or I've missed a really obvious link/read?
> 
> Where's the tannin input on a cliff face on top of a mountain? If the plants are soaking up all the organics that drive a low pH and there's also a slow input of insect skeletons, maybe snail shells and other carbonate sources, then what does the water in those brom leaves actually look like? Is it actually a lot higher and more stable than the water produced by your brews will produce?
> 
> Chris
> 
> PS If I had ever looked any of you frog pictures I'd prob have FF cultures on the go right now. Damn how did that happen
> 
> Chris,


 hey mate, i know of now links to guide us on whats in those big broms waterwise,i think they are alchemea nudicollis,and they are big. I wish i could give you a link mate and answer you Q's on the water and its makeup,becuase that would make me better armed to care for them at a higher level,might ask about this stateside
your scottish highland analogy is wonderful kiddo:notworthy:
I'd so love to be able to walk where these frogs live Chris so much would be learnt from this experiance especially, accompanied by someone like yourself whom understands water so much better than i, i guess water stability would be down to rainfall,there must also be some profound reason why mystie tads take so so long to morph my guess would be related to rainfall/climate,they say about extreme temps 35C and that the broms might act as regulators for this,all difficult to impliment with out a damn big viv,to get those damn big broms in. mysties we are told in the hobby are to be kept relatively dry and cool,the rocks in our viv do dry quick but in the big scheme can only be a little thing although i guess this might help the little guys as they might just benefit from a dry footfall more than other darts,who knows,ha i'm rasing more questions than answering here,as befits a novice.
Wonderful to hear you are culturing mate:2thumb::2thumb:,a suggestion get some dwarf white woods in as soon as possible,keep them warm,they are so slow take little work especially with an edible substrate,but it will take along time before you have too many.
Although much work has been done on darts chris and possibly more work on their breeding than many other species there are so many methods or nuances, much of this is still down to the individual,methods are not really yet written in stone..My mate in holland does auratus seriously,this year he has taken to communal rearing, looses some of the weeker ones i guess but is producing much larger stronger tads as a consequence he tells me.Although i have no idea how big or small these might be in the wild when they actually morph,i suspect ours through the gizmo are quite big,and possibly we overfeed,but its working so far,our auratus tads are not far short of what i remember a temporia tad(common frog here) to be at morph out,which is crazy considering the size of adults ,but as before live wild grub i guess has consequences,we are so fortunate to have this resourse,hmm and its great fun to feed,although time consumming
seeya buddy,very cool to know your on your way:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Because arcadia make T5's directly for reps, i'v been comparing them against the biovitals i have been messing with an arcadia bulb already installed over the tad gizmo,as above now have popped one in over the mysties,becuase the are so bright i moved the reflector to the mysties,and the tads now have a straight bulb,i'm slightly concearned that this bulb might be too powerful for tads,but all good sofar,once the mysties start to morph then i will no more,as before auratus seem ok but they haven't had that much of the new higher uvb bulb. As a back to back,comparison with a 24 watt biovital in the luecs viv,and a arcadia 6% bulb next door in the mysties the result considering they are both the same wattage is startling,i hope the following pic shows some of this. one thing that was instantly noticable was that the arcadia is so much closer to actual daylight,on turning and looking out of the window,with the artists eyes for colour that i guess i possess. we'll have to wait to see if there are any behavioural differences with the frogs,the 2 auratus vivs only 40 high above this are currantly lit by a 54 watt bulb am starting to think that a 24 watt arcadia might be more than enough,for both vivs,i am still leaning towards auratus not wanting highly lit vivs,here's a shot of the mysties right and leucs left,whether it shows the truth ,you know what cameras and light are like but here goes








i wish arcadia did some smaller 14 watt T5 bulbs,but i guess when everything is complete i might use the led as main and hit the frogs for less time in the middle of the day so they can get the uvb they might need, going to be interesting to see what the frogs do over the comming weeks.
I think we might start to try to dry the guys up a bit shortly and also cut back on the feed abit,well especially on the sb auratus,and abit later the mysties,we have had a fantastic if unexpected breeding season and i don't want the frogs to do too much,whether they will listen to our pleas to back up a bit remains to be seen, i thought we were slowing them down untill it got warm all hell has broken out recently,we are still both utterly bewildered by what these little guys can lay over a summer
bring it on
Stu


----------



## Sandsifter

soundstounite said:


> hey mate, i know of now links to guide us on whats in those big broms waterwise,i think they are alchemea nudicollis,and they are big. I wish i could give you a link mate and answer you Q's on the water and its makeup,becuase that would make me better armed to care for them at a higher level,might ask about this stateside
> your scottish highland analogy is wonderful kiddo:notworthy:
> I'd so love to be able to walk where these frogs live Chris so much would be learnt from this experiance especially, accompanied by someone like yourself whom understands water so much better than i, i guess water stability would be down to rainfall,there must also be some profound reason why mystie tads take so so long to morph my guess would be related to rainfall/climate,they say about extreme temps 35C and that the broms might act as regulators for this,all difficult to impliment with out a damn big viv,to get those damn big broms in. mysties we are told in the hobby are to be kept relatively dry and cool,the rocks in our viv do dry quick but in the big scheme can only be a little thing although i guess this might help the little guys as they might just benefit from a dry footfall more than other darts,who knows,ha i'm rasing more questions than answering here,as befits a novice.
> Wonderful to hear you are culturing mate:2thumb::2thumb:,a suggestion get some dwarf white woods in as soon as possible,keep them warm,they are so slow take little work especially with an edible substrate,but it will take along time before you have too many.
> Although much work has been done on darts chris and possibly more work on their breeding than many other species there are so many methods or nuances, much of this is still down to the individual,methods are not really yet written in stone..My mate in holland does auratus seriously,this year he has taken to communal rearing, looses some of the weeker ones i guess but is producing much larger stronger tads as a consequence he tells me.Although i have no idea how big or small these might be in the wild when they actually morph,i suspect ours through the gizmo are quite big,and possibly we overfeed,but its working so far,our auratus tads are not far short of what i remember a temporia tad(common frog here) to be at morph out,which is crazy considering the size of adults ,but as before live wild grub i guess has consequences,we are so fortunate to have this resourse,hmm and its great fun to feed,although time consumming
> seeya buddy,very cool to know your on your way:2thumb:
> Stu


Hi Stu, lol I'm no kind of water expert, just learnt bits and pieces through hobby, work and education, meaning im confused and lost most of the time 

A demonstration of my lack of expertise easily shown by the wee bit of googling I've done trying to find out about brom water chemistry; I found some stuff, but it totally contradicts my "expert" thinking about the likely brom chemistry at the Misty sites!  

From what I've read so far, the brom Aechmea nudicaulis, has been proved to have completely different bacterial populations dependent on the pH, but also that its been proved that broms exposed to more light (like the mystie ones I assume) have lower pH "tank" water (technical term used on a need to know basis :whistling2: ) than those in the shade. One article states pH in these tanks can drop as low as 3. :gasp: :crazy: . I was sitting down when i read this stuff btw, so no real harm done. Might need a rocking chair to disguise the vacant stare and rocking going on when i try to understand dart habitats though.. 

Stu, I think theres loads out there on the water chemistry in brom tanks (gonna use the tank word all i can now   ) but its all directed at other interests. 

Couple of links to abstracts;

Abstract

Aquatic microbial habitats within a neotropical ... [Microb Ecol. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

Also found one about tads ingesting brom "seeds" (well thats what i assumed they meant) then later passing them unharmed just like birds and fruit.

Chris


----------



## Sandsifter

> Wonderful to hear you are culturing mate,a suggestion get some dwarf white woods in as soon as possible,keep them warm,they are so slow take little work especially with an edible substrate,but it will take along time before you have too many.
> Although much work has been done on darts chris and possibly more work on their breeding than many other species there are so many methods or nuances, much of this is still down to the individual,methods are not really yet written in stone..My mate in holland does auratus seriously,this year he has taken to communal rearing, looses some of the weeker ones i guess but is producing much larger stronger tads as a consequence he tells me.Although i have no idea how big or small these might be in the wild when they actually morph,i suspect ours through the gizmo are quite big,and possibly we overfeed,but its working so far,our auratus tads are not far short of what i remember a temporia tad(common frog here) to be at morph out,which is crazy considering the size of adults ,but as before live wild grub i guess has consequences,we are so fortunate to have this resourse,hmm and its great fun to feed,although time consumming
> seeya buddy,very cool to know your on your way


Thx for that Stu, whites to top of list then.

Always been a huge fan of wild foods for fish. When I was very young i used to spend hours collecting wild fish food and was convinced they were often key in bringing a fish into condition to breed. A lot of the old timers used to swear by them too and i witnessed some of the superb quality fish and breeding successes these guys had. I use them rarely now but thats due to time rather than any belief change in their worth. If i could go into work tomorrow and fill every tank with live "worms", water" fleas" and mosquito larvae I would like a shot. I can't, not because its dangerous imho, but because it would be expensive. Very.

I think the "introducing dangerous parasites/bacteria" card is often overplayed, partly because it suits the trade and their customers . It is a risk but so's everything and ignores the idea that robust healthy animals in good conditions are bloody good at not dying 

Im thinking of your wild tads in these tanks (hehe got it in again) surrounded by bacteria species that are there exactly because they can break down everything into soup for mum. Wild tads clearly fine with that because they have a barrier(s) to stop the buggers getting in. The disaster surely happens not because of the presence of a complex bacterial/fungal community but that some event breaks down the barriers?

See, told you I'm no expert 

Chris


----------



## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> Hi Stu, lol I'm no kind of water expert, just learnt bits and pieces through hobby, work and education, meaning im confused and lost most of the time
> 
> A demonstration of my lack of expertise easily shown by the wee bit of googling I've done trying to find out about brom water chemistry; I found some stuff, but it totally contradicts my "expert" thinking about the likely brom chemistry at the Misty sites!
> 
> From what I've read so far, the brom Aechmea nudicaulis, has been proved to have completely different bacterial populations dependent on the pH, but also that its been proved that broms exposed to more light (like the mystie ones I assume) have lower pH "tank" water (technical term used on a need to know basis :whistling2: ) than those in the shade. One article states pH in these tanks can drop as low as 3. :gasp: :crazy: . I was sitting down when i read this stuff btw, so no real harm done. Might need a rocking chair to disguise the vacant stare and rocking going on when i try to understand dart habitats though..
> 
> Stu, I think theres loads out there on the water chemistry in brom tanks (gonna use the tank word all i can now   ) but its all directed at other interests.
> 
> Couple of links to abstracts;
> 
> Abstract
> 
> Aquatic microbial habitats within a neotropical ... [Microb Ecol. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> Also found one about tads ingesting brom "seeds" (well thats what i assumed they meant) then later passing them unharmed just like birds and fruit.
> 
> Chris


 Ha intesting stuff,gonna delve into your links in aminute kiddo,ahh mate you really have me rolling with laughter at times,THANKYOU:notworthy:Yeah i'm with you on the vacant stare trying to understand all this,ha and the rocking...maybe its age related :gasp:,blummin heck 3 is real acidic,Chris its great having your thoughts because your approach is so different to mine,where you look for answers,different thought processes,i guess influenced by different set of stock looked after.
thanks again mate both for the laugh and the info
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> Thx for that Stu, whites to top of list then.
> 
> Always been a huge fan of wild foods for fish. When I was very young i used to spend hours collecting wild fish food and was convinced they were often key in bringing a fish into condition to breed. A lot of the old timers used to swear by them too and i witnessed some of the superb quality fish and breeding successes these guys had. I use them rarely now but thats due to time rather than any belief change in their worth. If i could go into work tomorrow and fill every tank with live "worms", water" fleas" and mosquito larvae I would like a shot. I can't, not because its dangerous imho, but because it would be expensive. Very.
> 
> I think the "introducing dangerous parasites/bacteria" card is often overplayed, partly because it suits the trade and their customers . It is a risk but so's everything and ignores the idea that robust healthy animals in good conditions are bloody good at not dying
> 
> Im thinking of your wild tads in these tanks (hehe got it in again) surrounded by bacteria species that are there exactly because they can break down everything into soup for mum. Wild tads clearly fine with that because they have a barrier(s) to stop the buggers getting in. The disaster surely happens not because of the presence of a complex bacterial/fungal community but that some event breaks down the barriers?
> 
> See, told you I'm no expert
> 
> Chris


yup whites def top of list
I guess i did the same with my phibs as a kid Chris,,my simple take has always been what they could experiance in a rainforrest is nought compared to here,as you say if they are strong and healthy.All said and done foriegn bacteria or maybe pathogens from here could potentially mess with them,different ecosystem and all that but,never had problems as a kid and am utterly convinced now as an older :Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2: person that its worth the time and effort,my hope is that as we progress we will get much more proficient at the harvest of wild stuff,at creating places for this here where it can be nailed easier,seeds are already being sown on this front.'couse as a kid there weren't really any other options anyway. 
Agreed, there is a reason why we experianced the heartache of a couple of weeks ago,i might go so far as to prepose the thoery that again possilby diet related,yup i think we have it nailed,still 100 % all good,but we keep POISON dart frogs,but manipulate the diet so they are without their essence (toxins),i will always think untill totally proved wrong that this is bigger than anyone states,so no expert here either dude,just thinking ,stabbing in the dark. 
let me run this by you, although i guarantee you've got this already ....would the fungus that clobbered our tads have had a chance if this tad contained some of the the most toxic substances know on this planet....i doubt it,i really do,almost deviod of water quality this one (which of course i think hugely important),but i'll take some convincing that this is not a big player in all this!!!
there ya go kiddo thats your event,so we're left with an artifical dart in an artificial rearing system,the hairy bit is that now i can't do want i want,which is to get good enough to get these back to where they should be,esp mysties peru on top of a mountain,cause they wouldn't be the same,bummer huh,oh well might be other ways to do right by them,
LMFAO thats taken us somewhere else huh:lol2:
Stu


----------



## Sandsifter

Only my little view and understanding but why assume "fungus" was what got your tads? Most "fungus" in fish is not fungus at all; its usually a bacteria, no matter how many times fish-keepers repeat the "f" word and pay £5 for a fungus treatment. My understanding is that is usually just a bit part player joining in later. 

Most of the cases of "fungus", ulcers, "mouth-rot" I see in fish are down to a stress factor like poor water quality or aggression, in which the animal loses the ability to fight off what normally surrounds it every day . Once a fish, or I guess a phib, has its skin broken its in big trouble; salts in its body will want to pour out, every otherwise benign local bacteria or fungus will be moving into this rich new garden to feed and will get the blame as a cause. 

Don't understand your poison idea Stu. I get it in the general sense that if the captive frogs have no poisons then captives are different from the wild so loads follows but can't for the life of me understand how the poisons are supposed to protect them from bacteria?

Do the wild tads and wee froglet things (technical term..) have the same poisons as the adults? 

If they do,then why assume the poison deters bacteria/fungus/etc one bit? Plenty of plants and corals are "armed to the teeth" with poisons yet plenty of "higher" animals find ways around them to feed. As to what the microbes are doing with their quickstep version of the arms race?

Thinking in pictures. tsk :gasp:


----------



## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> Only my little view and understanding but why assume "fungus" was what got your tads? Most "fungus" in fish is not fungus at all; its usually a bacteria, no matter how many times fish-keepers repeat the "f" word and pay £5 for a fungus treatment. My understanding is that is usually just a bit part player joining in later.
> 
> Most of the cases of "fungus", ulcers, "mouth-rot" I see in fish are down to a stress factor like poor water quality or aggression, in which the animal loses the ability to fight off what normally surrounds it every day . Once a fish, or I guess a phib, has its skin broken its in big trouble; salts in its body will want to pour out, every otherwise benign local bacteria or fungus will be moving into this rich new garden to feed and will get the blame as a cause.
> 
> Don't understand your poison idea Stu. I get it in the general sense that if the captive frogs have no poisons then captives are different from the wild so loads follows but can't for the life of me understand how the poisons are supposed to protect them from bacteria?
> 
> Do the wild tads and wee froglet things (technical term..) have the same poisons as the adults?
> 
> If they do,then why assume the poison deters bacteria/fungus/etc one bit? Plenty of plants and corals are "armed to the teeth" with poisons yet plenty of "higher" animals find ways around them to feed. As to what the microbes are doing with their quickstep version of the arms race?
> 
> Thinking in pictures. tsk :gasp:


 i think fungus from talking to folks Chris but again no science to back that statement,and same with the poisons pretty much, did say stabbing in the dark,that said i have heard of some breeders having,problems with skin problems with terribilis,and this being asscociated with the lack of skin toxins,its a good point you make about whether the tadpols actually carry these,don't know,actually if these toxins are synthised from what the adults eat then there is no reason to believe kids have this. I guess alot of how i think works this way,my veiws are rarely written in stone,more thoughts of approach.Damn sure i don't have answers though
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> yup whites def top of list
> I guess i did the same with my phibs as a kid Chris,,my simple take has always been what they could experiance in a rainforrest is nought compared to here,as you say if they are strong and healthy.All said and done foriegn bacteria or maybe pathogens from here could potentially mess with them,different ecosystem and all that but,never had problems as a kid and am utterly convinced now as an older :Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2: person that its worth the time and effort,my hope is that as we progress we will get much more proficient at the harvest of wild stuff,at creating places for this here where it can be nailed easier,seeds are already being sown on this front.'couse as a kid there weren't really any other options anyway.
> Agreed, there is a reason why we experianced the heartache of a couple of weeks ago,i might go so far as to prepose the thoery that again possilby diet related,yup i think we have it nailed,still 100 % all good,but we keep POISON dart frogs,but manipulate the diet so they are without their essence (toxins),i will always think untill totally proved wrong that this is bigger than anyone states,so no expert here either dude,just thinking ,stabbing in the dark.
> let me run this by you, although i guarantee you've got this already ....would the fungus that clobbered our tads have had a chance if this tad contained some of the the most toxic substances know on this planet....i doubt it,i really do,almost deviod of water quality this one (which of course i think hugely important),but i'll take some convincing that this is not a big player in all this!!!
> there ya go kiddo thats your event,so we're left with an artifical dart in an artificial rearing system,the hairy bit is that now i can't do want i want,which is to get good enough to get these back to where they should be,esp mysties peru on top of a mountain,cause they wouldn't be the same,bummer huh,oh well might be other ways to do right by them,
> LMFAO thats taken us somewhere else huh:lol2:
> Stu


There are some precautions you can take with wild-caught food- for a start collect aquatic organisms from bodies of water that don't have resident amphibiams- rain butts are great for mosquite larvae and bloodworm, and sometimes Daphnia for example, and in terms of terrestrial food, try to avoid collecting from areas where pesticides are used, but I'm a strong believer in giving all my animals as wide a variety in their diet as is possible, and wild-caught insects etc are much more nutritious on the whole than anything you will buy in a shop.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> There are some precautions you can take with wild-caught food- for a start collect aquatic organisms from bodies of water that don't have resident amphibiams- rain butts are great for mosquite larvae and bloodworm, and sometimes Daphnia for example, and in terms of terrestrial food, try to avoid collecting from areas where pesticides are used, but I'm a strong believer in giving all my animals as wide a variety in their diet as is possible, and wild-caught insects etc are much more nutritious on the whole than anything you will buy in a shop.


 i need to show ya "ickle mate" Ron,side by side with some of the new chaps,if ever there was a case to demonstrate the benefits of a wild grub start and how it keeps going then he's it,you've already have seen what his growth rate was like as we doted on him as our first born,i must get a shot up of now tis mind blowing,am a bit warey being auratus an stress an all.The parents came here at just the right time of year for us to completely stuff them with wild grub,and we can all see where thats gone.I'll try to sort it real soon and very carefully, i think he's 6 weeks now Ron,honestly mate its mind blowing.
Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

*wow*

wow what a journey, Today i have read from start to finish only getting up for food and the occasional brew (after dark turns to a larger) 
this is one hell of a story and i have been so touched by the ups and the downs 

also can i just say Stu and ade are truly amazing i have many pets (dogs, cats, guinea pigs, rabbits, chameleons, African pygmy hedgehogs and 3 kids) and i have been a novice, beginner in all and when i have asked silly daft or beginner questions i have always been told "Google it" or "read the threads" by experts in the areas i have noticed no matter what question these two have always given there time to reply and have never brushed anyone off true legends


i will be starting to collect these fab frogs at some stage and have learnt so much the last week reading posts like these 



thanks again 



dane


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> wow what a journey, Today i have read from start to finish only getting up for food and the occasional brew (after dark turns to a larger)
> this is one hell of a story and i have been so touched by the ups and the downs
> 
> also can i just say Stu and ade are truly amazing i have many pets (dogs, cats, guinea pigs, rabbits, chameleons, African pygmy hedgehogs and 3 kids) and i have been a novice, beginner in all and when i have asked silly daft or beginner questions i have always been told "Google it" or "read the threads" by experts in the areas i have noticed no matter what question these two have always given there time to reply and have never brushed anyone off true legends
> 
> 
> i will be starting to collect these fab frogs at some stage and have learnt so much the last week reading posts like these
> 
> 
> 
> thanks again
> 
> 
> 
> dane


I would hope Ade doesn't mind if i say thanks from him,just in case he doesn't see the above.Ade's had frogs longer than us but we both have started not so long ago,i guess he might agree that we are just passing foward what guys like Richie Alex Paul Ron Nick Daz Phil Glen David Gordon Marc's and countless others have chucked at me/us,your welcome mate.
yup a few hiccups here but in the big scheme,we can't really beieve how our first season has gone,if it was all straightfoward,it wouldn't be livestock,or a challenge. Dane ,tis only really the beginning of this for us,we are starting to develope some rearing methods that seem to work pretty well,at least for auratus anyway time will tell if it works for mysties too. Can't really say we have more than scratched the surface of keeping these frogs though.
Ha just in from graft to find another little guy sat on the abiss betwixt water and land,GET IN more good legs :2thumb::2thumb:,gonna chill for a few mo.s then back at it
cheers
Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

you are a true insperation fella

im toying with a few ideas my self at the minute one been converting the garage or the loft my only issue with the garrage is keeping the heat in either this or buyng a flat and converting it to a aminal house as im bursting at the seems at the moment


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> you are a true insperation fella
> 
> im toying with a few ideas my self at the minute one been converting the garage or the loft my only issue with the garrage is keeping the heat in either this or buyng a flat and converting it to a aminal house as im bursting at the seems at the moment


 ha thanks Dane mate the issues are kinda both ways,with both choices other than the flat. Ie too hot in loft or garage in summer 2 cold in winter,excessive heat is real dangerous to darts.
Dane i guess if you've gone through all this you might know i play drums:lol2:,bare with me mate,well they are loud,put me behind that and,well lets just say...very LOUD:whistling2::mf_dribble:.So a while back i built a studio to play/record in and seriously soundproofed it.The relevence to sheds and lofts is as a byproduct of all the soundproofing all the high density insulation and airgaps mean,temperatures remain very stable,in minus what ever last year,we nearly moved in there:gasp: and its heated by the tiniest little oil rad,half the damn size of my frogroom one and the shed is 20'x10'. window is quadruple glazed etc etc,layers of insulation with air gaps,will help massively with this type of project,we also used a sound shield plasterboard,which is 4 times heavier than the normal one,i've worked building sites mate if we built our houses like that we wouldn't need heat in our winters,and the flip is cool in summer,another cool little dodge for cool in summer,is to shade a garage,by growing say a vigourous clematis over it,montana springs to mind,which doesn't tend to wreck structure as it grows on rather than into building surface if ya get me drift,so a trellace around ond over sorts it. ha just some mad thoughts,to prevent overheating in summer and having to work 24/7 in winter to cover the heating bill,oh another silly summer dodge..reverse the lighting...on at night,yeah i know:lol2: i have thought about this too much:blush: and you'll also note triple glazed frogroom window done very cheep,
seeya
stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> ha thanks Dane mate the issues are kinda both ways,with both choices other than the flat. Ie too hot in loft or garage in summer 2 cold in winter,excessive heat is real dangerous to darts.
> Dane i guess if you've gone through all this you might know i play drums:lol2:,bare with me mate,well they are loud,put me behind that and,well lets just say...very LOUD:whistling2::mf_dribble:.So a while back i built a studio to play/record in and seriously soundproofed it.The relevence to sheds and lofts is as a byproduct of all the soundproofing all the high density insulation and airgaps mean,temperatures remain very stable,in minus what ever last year,we nearly moved in there:gasp: and its heated by the tiniest little oil rad,half the damn size of my frogroom one and the shed is 20'x10'. window is quadruple glazed etc etc,layers of insulation with air gaps,will help massively with this type of project,we also used a sound shield plasterboard,which is 4 times heavier than the normal one,i've worked building sites mate if we built our houses like that we wouldn't need heat in our winters,and the flip is cool in summer,another cool little dodge for cool in summer,is to shade a garage,by growing say a vigourous clematis over it,montana springs to mind,which doesn't tend to wreck structure as it grows on rather than into building surface if ya get me drift,so a trellace around ond over sorts it. ha just some mad thoughts,to prevent overheating in summer and having to work 24/7 in winter to cover the heating bill,oh another silly summer dodge..reverse the lighting...on at night,yeah i know:lol2: i have thought about this too much:blush: and you'll also note triple glazed frogroom window done very cheep,
> seeya
> stu


wow man some amazing helpful ideas cheers. i cant wait to start my own project but it wont be until after crinbo now :-(


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> wow man some amazing helpful ideas cheers. i cant wait to start my own project but it wont be until after crinbo now :-(


 damn site quicker than i move mate, took a year and 2 months i think,before room start,18months ish for 1st frogs but those buggers got involed and messed up all the slow careful plans by this egg laying malarky:mf_dribble:,not that we're complaining just so funny,got some nice pics comming damn these guys grow quick
Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> damn site quicker than i move mate, took a year and 2 months i think,before room start,18months ish for 1st frogs but those buggers got involed and messed up all the slow careful plans by this egg laying malarky:mf_dribble:,not that we're complaining just so funny,got some nice pics comming damn these guys grow quick
> Stu


i dont like tinking about things to much no a days, not that i rush into anything.... before i got the African pygmy hogs i did like a years research and stuff and thought afterwars it was a bit overkill. and tbh it will take at least 8-12 months to buy and convert a garage to represent a room which you already kind of had (i think this maybe the route i will take) so can use that time to read and stuff me old man is a builder/ joiner so he will come in very handy when i do plan to start


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

forgot to also say.. cant wait to see more pics dude


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## grizzlymonkyboy

i have another idea i currently have a unit in my living room and we dont really use it for much and was thinking it would be great to get 3 vivs to fit nicely in there and would be an amazing feture in the room but im just not sure the measurements will stack up would be really greatful for your opinion 

the hight of the space availble is 140cm and its 50cm deep and 50cm wide i have attempted to attach a pic


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## grizzlymonkyboy




----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> forgot to also say.. cant wait to see more pics dude


 Here ya go gotta pick me son up so stuck waiting,told him his room was no longer available and full of tads,but he's comming home anyway...kids today,just don't listen:gasp::lol2:
some mysties


















Little aurautus just ootw (out of the water) ie this avo








note how thin,but he's feeding on his tail so we have until that runs out to get him feeding,so spingtails of which there are many will hopefully do the trick difficult to actually watch and know each little chap is feeding with auratus as they are a bit shy,when we hopefully do tincs or just maybe the mysties come good then we might get to see this earlier,at pres its look and watch for full tummy.
Now, this next one i think is awsome,this is "Ickle mate" eggs were laid around 9th of june so would have hatched around 23rd of june. i think he came ootw on 11th Aug so about 8 weeks old now, the froglet next to him is around a week,details are on here somewhere, also note the shape of the little guy if you can its not the best angle( but i wanted them both back where not stressed,soon as) who's now feeding.Him and his 2 mates are all round of belly,the minute we see that now we start to chill that they might be ok.
Amazing growth,so Ron,despite what risks there might be to our beloved wild grub,this has gotta be the flip side,the up side, the benefits we feel are there: i didn't know not to feed him too much,i didn't pollute his water as the stuff he hunted was living not decaying,i chucked stuff at him as we thought he needed,he morphed out good no sls, with a water temp averaging quite low say 71 (maybe a gnats higher),no harm has come from the over feeding of wild grub i would say: as you can see so far strong as an ox,maybe he's got a slightly stronger immune system too as a by product of low level challenges,which he might have experianced becuse of "au natural" water and feeding,honestly don't know,and he was in the water for six weeks roughly.sommit might yet go wrong with him ,but i'm starting to believe we might just have got this one to the stage of being what we are after,strong fit healthy and growing like a weed. QED: victory:: victory:
Folks there are many different ways to rear a dart what works for me won't necessarily be the right way for you,this is one method to add to your list not the right way,but, untill we have to modify this, then this, more or less will be how we rear a dart,course tailored abit to species,oh tads had uvb from day one with low level at first,make of this what you will. i so want this now for our mysties...almost feels too much to ask after a few months of being a dartster 








Finally 'cause he loves me:lol2:...oh and Shaz:bash: our citron male,well actually bloody prima donna came to the front for a bloody photo 'cause he thought he's missing out 








nice though ain't he:2thumb: actually poor bugger is just starving to death thats the real motivation behind our friendship...tincs huh
bring it on
Stu


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## grizzlymonkyboy

wow there amazing, and look at "Ickle mate" aint he/she getting and big fella/fellaess truely amazing form blob to frog


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## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> image
> 
> i have another idea i currently have a unit in my living room and we dont really use it for much and was thinking it would be great to get 3 vivs to fit nicely in there and would be an amazing feture in the room but im just not sure the measurements will stack up would be really greatful for your opinion
> 
> the hight of the space availble is 140cm and its 50cm deep and 50cm wide i have attempted to attach a pic


 you'll need around 12 cm well thats what we use between each viv for lights,some vents in the back hole saw in lighting area if your using the ent style viv,which personnally its my beginners opinion is the best design out there...period!! we use a viv that is 50cmsq base,and 40 high,but i wouldn't go smaller in height mate so what about working towards 2 verts around 60 high and cut down the base slightly to fit.Remember to allow aound 12mm for a polystyrene tile underneath each viv.Buddy i have done alot of work with wood and i always worry about it warping... moving,that said tis a pretty chunky unit and lots of guys utilse wood,as long as this is allowed for by not having the vivs too tight plus that tile underneath,can't see many other reasons not to go for it.2 just under 60 high plus lighting spaces works real well,if you could remove front "coving" and then replace with vivs in situ,the numbers add up well plus it will look the dogs ****
.Only other possible downer ,and going out there a bit,is potential problems with stain harming frogs?,but you know how silly cautious i am about such things already,a mate here lost his darts to a scented candle,so ya kinda see why. where do you live Dane? i can't see while writting this. Go for 2 vivs mate not 3,reasons lower than 40 is a mare to work with you will struggle to place broms up off the ground,roughly 50x50x60high will suit more or less anything,not trivittata and i wouldn't personnally houst terribilis in this,but thats me,but even tincs will use all this,in the real world 60cm climbing to any dart is nothing,hows that grab ya mate?
Stu


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## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> wow there amazing, and look at "Ickle mate" aint he/she getting and big fella/fellaess truely amazing form blob to frog


i bet girl Dane,but hell i haven't a clue really. You are so right it IS amazing,its been super cool for me to see Shaz watch this for the first time,and to get to see it with a dartfrog,kinda is even more awsome,one gets all the colour too!!!!! its been so quick too,i can still remember finding the first 3 clutches of eggs at the same time,i never thought they would lay them so wasn't even looking,only seens like a couple of weeks ago...proper WOW,mind you meatamorphosis is one of the most magical things nature does,to see it like this is mindbending really
Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> you'll need around 12 cm well thats what we use between each viv for lights,some vents in the back hole saw in lighting area if your using the ent style viv,which personnally its my beginners opinion is the best design out there...period!! we use a viv that is 50cmsq base,and 40 high,but i wouldn't go smaller in height mate so what about working towards 2 verts around 60 high and cut down the base slightly to fit.Remember to allow aound 12mm for a polystyrene tile underneath each viv.Buddy i have done alot of work with wood and i always worry about it warping... moving,that said tis a pretty chunky unit and lots of guys utilse wood,as long as this is allowed for by not having the vivs too tight plus that tile underneath,can't see many other reasons not to go for it.2 just under 60 high plus lighting spaces works real well,if you could remove front "coving" and then replace with vivs in situ,the numbers add up well plus it will look the dogs ****
> .Only other possible downer ,and going out there a bit,is potential problems with stain harming frogs?,but you know how silly cautious i am about such things already,a mate here lost his darts to a scented candle,so ya kinda see why. where do you live Dane? i can't see while writting this. Go for 2 vivs mate not 3,reasons lower than 40 is a mare to work with you will struggle to place broms up off the ground,roughly 50x50x60high will suit more or less anything,not trivittata and i wouldn't personnally houst terribilis in this,but thats me,but even tincs will use all this,in the real world 60cm climbing to any dart is nothing,hows that grab ya mate?
> Stu


yeah i think 2 work nice and all the coving and selfes can either easily removed or slide out i will have to re-enforce the shelf that will hold the top one bottom one will be fine. nice one that sounds like a plan and at least then i can get playing around before i tackle the big project  happy days 

and once again thanks for you help 

invaluble


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> i bet girl Dane,but hell i haven't a clue really. You are so right it IS amazing,its been super cool for me to see Shaz watch this for the first time,and to get to see it with a dartfrog,kinda is even more awsome,one gets all the colour too!!!!! its been so quick too,i can still remember finding the first 3 clutches of eggs at the same time,i never thought they would lay them so wasn't even looking,only seens like a couple of weeks ago...proper WOW,mind you meatamorphosis is one of the most magical things nature does,to see it like this is mindbending really
> Stu


yeah i agree, its funny becaus ethe little one is doing all about this at school and brought a cool book home its so amazing


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Hi Stu, great photo and this thread should be condensed into a book!

Can I just point out that a 14w T5 lamp is termed as HE for High efficiency and not HO or high output.

24w is the smallest size possible for true high output at present.

The 14w lamps are the same as the old style T8s just in a thinner tube.
Whereas high output is just that. They are 2-3 times more powerful than a T8 of the same size. Great for UV boosting and providing UV in tall densely planted vivs, where the animals rely on leaf scatter illumination, as they do in the wild.

So 14watt = HE and 24 watt is HO

John. 




soundstounite said:


> Because arcadia make T5's directly for reps, i'v been comparing them against the biovitals i have been messing with an arcadia bulb already installed over the tad gizmo,as above now have popped one in over the mysties,becuase the are so bright i moved the reflector to the mysties,and the tads now have a straight bulb,i'm slightly concearned that this bulb might be too powerful for tads,but all good sofar,once the mysties start to morph then i will no more,as before auratus seem ok but they haven't had that much of the new higher uvb bulb. As a back to back,comparison with a 24 watt biovital in the luecs viv,and a arcadia 6% bulb next door in the mysties the result considering they are both the same wattage is startling,i hope the following pic shows some of this. one thing that was instantly noticable was that the arcadia is so much closer to actual daylight,on turning and looking out of the window,with the artists eyes for colour that i guess i possess. we'll have to wait to see if there are any behavioural differences with the frogs,the 2 auratus vivs only 40 high above this are currantly lit by a 54 watt bulb am starting to think that a 24 watt arcadia might be more than enough,for both vivs,i am still leaning towards auratus not wanting highly lit vivs,here's a shot of the mysties right and leucs left,whether it shows the truth ,you know what cameras and light are like but here goes
> image
> i wish arcadia did some smaller 14 watt T5 bulbs,but i guess when everything is complete i might use the led as main and hit the frogs for less time in the middle of the day so they can get the uvb they might need, going to be interesting to see what the frogs do over the comming weeks.
> I think we might start to try to dry the guys up a bit shortly and also cut back on the feed abit,well especially on the sb auratus,and abit later the mysties,we have had a fantastic if unexpected breeding season and i don't want the frogs to do too much,whether they will listen to our pleas to back up a bit remains to be seen, i thought we were slowing them down untill it got warm all hell has broken out recently,we are still both utterly bewildered by what these little guys can lay over a summer
> bring it on
> Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Drat, Arcadiajohn posted something that's correct. 

Stu, the 14 watt HEs are pretty naff in comparison to the 24 watt HOs. They're the exact same length as a 24 watt T5HO, but thanks to Lumens per watt give out less Lumens.

Using Osram 865s as an example:-

14 watt T5HE: 1100 Lumens
24 watt T5HO: 1600 Lumens

That's 500 Lumens more in the same length of tube. The only reason to use T5HEs would possibly be to save energy. But compared to an 18 watt T8 you would only be using 4 less watts (an 18 watt T8 gives off the exact same amount of lumens as a 14 watt T5HE, and is the same length). You might gain a small improvement with a T5HE over a T8 through the reduced tube diamater reducing restrike, and allowing the reflector to be more efficient. A good thread discussing T5s and T8s TFH Magazine Forum • View topic - T5 vs T8.

To be honest, if you need something under 2 feet, then the only real choices are energy saving type bulbs (ES27 types), 2G11s (Dulux/PLL) or power LEDs. Each has pros and cons.

One thing often overlooked with lighting is the quality of the reflectors or luminaires/canopies. For example I have switched to using the D-D Gullwing reflectors, and have found that, to the eye at least, more light makes it into the viv than with say another brand of reflector. As hinted at, it's often the reflector that makes T5s so much better than T8s, that and most T5s now use electronic ballasts. I am sure John will actually agree with me this one time that electronic ballasts are much better than magnetic ones.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Hi Stu, great photo and this thread should be condensed into a book!
> 
> Can I just point out that a 14w T5 lamp is termed as HE for High efficiency and not HO or high output.
> 
> 24w is the smallest size possible for true high output at present.
> 
> The 14w lamps are the same as the old style T8s just in a thinner tube.
> Whereas high output is just that. They are 2-3 times more powerful than a T8 of the same size. Great for UV boosting and providing UV in tall densely planted vivs, where the animals rely on leaf scatter illumination, as they do in the wild.
> 
> So 14watt = HE and 24 watt is HO
> 
> John.


 Hi John,wow thats really kind,the book that is:notworthy: thankyou!!! and actually its really kind for you to point out anything to enlighten me/us about your lights,i think they are great mate,as you can tell !! 
i would love you to make something not quite as powerful for my not so high vivs,but i think i might have a way around this,some of our tanks are only 40 cm high, often dart tanks are made in this size its difficlt to get the broms up in these sizes for that elusive leaf scatter you refer to.
But i think the combo of your reflector and bulb over the deeper tanks is a winner john, i think i am going to save by not having to have as high a wattage bulb as i would have needed with the biovitals,on these deeper tanks. 
Personally ,and although i rarely give my self credit for much mate i have a really good eye for colour,i have painted animals all my life your bulb is bang on for daylight. When you also throw in the uvb aspect: many of my mates have told me/us about arcadia doing their homework properly ie tech reserch,then i think your product is right up there for us. I don't greatly understand the science behind all this john,i know i want a cirtain level of light,the right quality of uvb for our frogs,and the right colour,your bulbs are going along way to giving me just that,:lol2:i just want my cake and eat it,i want a smaller one that does everything our 24watts do:blush: for our little tanks. Ha thats me mate i want it all the great power of your bulbs to save my running costs by giving me more light for my buck:mf_dribble: and some little ones too.oh well so far i'm ruddy chuffed to bits with them mate,and if these mysties come good because of them i'll be even more chuffed,nuff said!
thankyou for the kind words and the explaining john,we will be buying more of these 
regards
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Stu, seriously, you are confusing the appearance of been brighter with them been actually brighter. It's all down to colour spectrum. Biovitals are 5,900k tubes, which makes them quite yellow, which is dimmer looking to the human eye, where those Arcadia tubes probably contain more blue, making them LOOK brighter. They AREN'T any more powerful. Test it for yourself, buy an Osram Skywhite 880 T5 tube and compare it. You will find it's apparent 'brightness' dazzling, but it's not brighter, it's just a different 'colour'. Whiter light looks brighter, it's usually whiter because it contains more blue. Why do you think I combine GroLux tubes with Skywhite tubes over my planted aquarium? lol

You're NOT getting more light for your buck, period. You just think you are, you're been fooled by the colour and the way the human eye works.

Oh and this isn't Arcadia's fault, they never claimed their tubes give off more light than competitors T5HO tubes. There's only so much you can do with the technology after all.

Oh and John, I don't expect you to argue with me on this. However, if I am wrong and you do, could you back your argument please by telling us how many lumens per watt your 24 watt T5HO D3 tubes emit please? Or even just the total amount of lumens the 24 watt T5HO D3 tubes emit. I can't find this information for myself, but can find this info for most other major brands, and they DON'T differ from brand to brand. All that changes is the quality of the spectrum emitted/colour spectrum.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Drat, Arcadiajohn posted something that's correct.
> 
> Stu, the 14 watt HEs are pretty naff in comparison to the 24 watt HOs. They're the exact same length as a 24 watt T5HO, but thanks to Lumens per watt give out less Lumens.
> 
> Using Osram 865s as an example:-
> 
> 14 watt T5HE: 1100 Lumens
> 24 watt T5HO: 1600 Lumens
> 
> That's 500 Lumens more in the same length of tube. The only reason to use T5HEs would possibly be to save energy. But compared to an 18 watt T8 you would only be using 4 less watts (an 18 watt T8 gives off the exact same amount of lumens as a 14 watt T5HE, and is the same length). You might gain a small improvement with a T5HE over a T8 through the reduced tube diamater reducing restrike, and allowing the reflector to be more efficient. A good thread discussing T5s and T8s TFH Magazine Forum • View topic - T5 vs T8.
> 
> To be honest, if you need something under 2 feet, then the only real choices are energy saving type bulbs (ES27 types), 2G11s (Dulux/PLL) or power LEDs. Each has pros and cons.
> 
> One thing often overlooked with lighting is the quality of the reflectors or luminaires/canopies. For example I have switched to using the D-D Gullwing reflectors, and have found that, to the eye at least, more light makes it into the viv than with say another brand of reflector. As hinted at, it's often the reflector that makes T5s so much better than T8s, that and most T5s now use electronic ballasts. I am sure John will actually agree with me this one time that electronic ballasts are much better than magnetic ones.
> 
> Ade


 I'm going to sit out whilst the technicalities get debated Ade,its over my head mate,but i know what my eyes see and what levels of light i want over me darts,and how my plants react and i know i want that good quality uvb,these tools enable me to be the stockman i want to be,i love this product like i love me repashy,me ent viv design etc. i try my best to find what i'm after and stop worrying about it and let it do its job.that leaves what little brain i have left to worry about how to do what i'm/ we are best at: being a stockman,hammering out the daily routine and trying constantly to do the best for our animals,yeah i can make stuff,pretty much most of what i need,even out of rubbish ,but all close and dear to us say its the stockmanship that is mine and shaz's little gift,thats our focus mate,i'll leave making me lights to john but of course i'll try to understand whats going on,its relative to my frogs,exactly like you and chris and all the thoughts on water etc,which was superb to read and learn and wonderful to try and get me head around,proper thought prevoking,course,my simple logic tells me the biggy so far anyway god knows about tomorrow was that first night when you said aldercones,just before midnight, the stockman took over, treatment effected within an hour, no more problems bosh up and running,focus on keeping them going watching the water,right quantity of food bla bla stockmans stuff,hone that method,thats what i do mate,i don't understand what a ballast even is really,but i'm starting to get a handle on how to rear a dartfrog,emphasis on starting:2thumb:
Stu


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## Wolfenrook

Whatever Stu, I give up.

Just a heads up though http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockman_%28Australia%29. lol

Ade


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## Arcadiajohn

A24w lamp is the same power regardless of Kelvin. By adding more or less white and blue you can obtain a very bright stark white colour. Look at the sylvania 558s for a great white blue colour, the lumens will alter depending on the phosphor mix. For instance our marine hybrid has a lumen output of 740.

The difference with ours is that we have been able to use these natural colours and include huge amounts of UV without totally messing up the visible spectrum. With most Uv lamps you will notice that as the% increases the lamp becomes very blue. Ours do not increase in such a noticable way. We have a two phosphor coat process to achieve this.

For example the D3+ 24w lamp and reflector at 20cms is providing 274mws2 all along the lamp. The D3 is pumping out 124mws2. Now in context our wide angle 100w M.V D3 lamp is pushing 120-140 mws2. So you can see how efficient the T5 solution is at delivering a good amount of uv over a wide area. And we go right up to 54w. The D3 T5 lumen rating is 1100, the similar length T8 D3 has a lumen reading of 450, so T5 is over double the visible output. The CRI is a whopping 92 with a Kelvin of 7000k, so altogether not a bad lamp.

As I always publish we are still 20years from the perfect lamp, but my opinion is that this a huge jump in the right direction


Gill from just air plants can advise independently as I know she is having great results at the moment.

John.


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## Morgan Freeman

Sorry Stu mate, Ade is bang on. Visual light is for appearances only.

I was watching, countryfile? Or something and there was a guy in Ireland growing plants under just green/blue lights for around 16 hours a day, because daylight during the winter was only around 7 hours tops. The lights were barely noticeable but the plants thrived.


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Whatever Stu, I give up.
> 
> Just a heads up though Stockman (Australia) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. lol
> 
> Ade


 Cool,just call me Jacky:lol2:,thats what i want to be,a dart frog breeder,thats my /our goal,
you've got me humming that ruddy David Soul "don't give on me baby" now,thats bloody hard core mate:Na_Na_Na_Na:
what is it this morning every ones got a case of whatevers i 've only looked at 2 threads...ha monday morning blues.But tis my day off,and i get to play with tads woods and see if i can actually find a way of rockoflexing and epoxying this background nightmare we have created,lighten up guys(see how i did that) life aint so bad
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> A24w lamp is the same power regardless of Kelvin. By adding more or less white and blue you can obtain a very bright stark white colour. Look at the sylvania 558s for a great white blue colour, the lumens will alter depending on the phosphor mix. For instance our marine hybrid has a lumen output of 740.
> 
> The difference with ours is that we have been able to use these natural colours and include huge amounts of UV without totally messing up the visible spectrum. With most Uv lamps you will notice that as the% increases the lamp becomes very blue. Ours do not increase in such a noticable way. We have a two phosphor coat process to achieve this.
> 
> For example the D3+ 24w lamp and reflector at 20cms is providing 274mws2 all along the lamp. The D3 is pumping out 124mws2. Now in context our wide angle 100w M.V D3 lamp is pushing 120-140 mws2. So you can see how efficient the T5 solution is at delivering a good amount of uv over a wide area. And we go right up to 54w. The D3 T5 lumen rating is 1100, the similar length T8 D3 has a lumen reading of 450, so T5 is over double the visible output. The CRI is a whopping 92 with a Kelvin of 7000k, so altogether not a bad lamp.
> 
> As I always publish we are still 20years from the perfect lamp, but my opinion is that this a huge jump in the right direction
> 
> 
> Gill from just air plants can advise independently as I know she is having great results at the moment.
> 
> John.


 Well i like em mate,even if i don't really undestand all this stuff:2thumb:
thanks again for the explanation John
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Cool,just call me Jacky:lol2:,thats what i want to be,a dart frog breeder,thats my /our goal,
> you've got me humming that ruddy David Soul "don't give on me baby" now,thats bloody hard core mate:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> *what is it this morning every ones got a case of whatevers i 've only looked at 2 threads...ha monday morning blues.*But tis my day off,and i get to play with tads woods and see if i can actually find a way of rockoflexing and epoxying this background nightmare we have created,lighten up guys(see how i did that) life aint so bad
> Stu


 There _does_ seem to be a certain amount of crabbiness around...:lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Sorry Stu mate, Ade is bang on. Visual light is for appearances only.
> 
> I was watching, countryfile? Or something and there was a guy in Ireland growing plants under just green/blue lights for around 16 hours a day, because daylight during the winter was only around 7 hours tops. The lights were barely noticeable but the plants thrived.


 dude no need to apologise,i know you guys understand this stuff way better than me,nice explanation though:notworthy:,good breakdown for a layman
cheers mate
stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> There _does_ seem to be a certain amount of crabbiness around...:lol2:


 ron did you see the auratus pics i posted...there is a bit for you there?
stu


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> yeah i think 2 work nice and all the coving and selfes can either easily removed or slide out i will have to re-enforce the shelf that will hold the top one bottom one will be fine. nice one that sounds like a plan and at least then i can get playing around before i tackle the big project  happy days
> 
> and once again thanks for you help
> 
> invaluble


 Dane would add you'll need to think about drainage of the vivs,which will workinto the lighting spacebetwixt 2 vivs and under the bottom one...you need a bit of space under the bottom tank to put some shallow receptical...although not much it will affect your vivs height
Stu


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## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> ron did you see the auratus pics i posted...there is a bit for you there?
> stu


 Um, which ones?


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> ron did you see the auratus pics i posted...there is a bit for you there?
> stu


Doh! I did see them- I just forgot! Hehe: 'Eat up all your wormy things and you'll grow up big and strong!' :lol2:


----------



## Arcadiajohn

just as an interesting aside, the Narva biovital charts have just arrived on my desk. i will enclose a link to the data sheet. this apears to be a bright natural daylight colour lamp. the lumenous output is quite high so would give a bright output. it does not apear from thier own 2011 data sheets to have much in thw way of usable UVA or more importantly UVB. they state 0.4% for UVB. now factoring in that if you use a mesh topped viv this would cut out 40% of the light and relative UV even from new and the drop off of power from lamp to animal this would not be enough energy to provide for the D3 cycle through lighting. from my calculations you would need to place the lamp and suitable reflecftor at about 5cms from the frog to obtain enough energy to start the D3 cycle without factoring in a mesh based drop off. if you rely on this type of output regardless of lamp manafacture!!! you will need a very strict regimented synthetic suplimentation programme. for a background exposure for amphibs we suggest a UVB solar meter reading of 35-50+mws2 in the exposed areas, falling into a gradient supplied by plants and decoration. some species would need substantially higher emmisons I.E frogs from higher altitudes.This is based on the 24w HO lamp in comparison to the Arcadia D3 6%. so the lumens are lower with the Arcadia lamp, that is becuse of the higher UVB content. the power output remains the same as 24ws.

http://www.narva-bel.de/ressourcen/datenblaetter/QD17124T5.03_LT-T5_NARVA_BIO_vital.pdf

so a very nice coloured lamp very simialr to our bird lamp which is based on the phillips 965 in colour, but without very much UVA or UVB. our T8 bird lamp is 2.4%uvb for interest.

john.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Doh! I did see them- I just forgot! Hehe: 'Eat up all your wormy things and you'll grow up big and strong!' :lol2:


 :2thumb: yeah mate an i got a bumper haul today,fat taddies:mf_dribble:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> just as an interesting aside, the Narva biovital charts have just arrived on my desk. i will enclose a link to the data sheet. this apears to be a bright natural daylight colour lamp. the lumenous output is quite high so would give a bright output. it does not apear from thier own 2011 data sheets to have much in thw way of usable UVA or more importantly UVB. they state 0.4% for UVB. now factoring in that if you use a mesh topped viv this would cut out 40% of the light and relative UV even from new and the drop off of power from lamp to animal this would not be enough energy to provide for the D3 cycle through lighting. from my calculations you would need to place the lamp and suitable reflecftor at about 5cms from the frog to obtain enough energy to start the D3 cycle without factoring in a mesh based drop off. if you rely on this type of output regardless of lamp manafacture!!! you will need a very strict regimented synthetic suplimentation programme. for a background exposure for amphibs we suggest a UVB solar meter reading of 35-50+mws2 in the exposed areas, falling into a gradient supplied by plants and decoration. some species would need substantially higher emmisons I.E frogs from higher altitudes.This is based on the 24w HO lamp in comparison to the Arcadia D3 6%. so the lumens are lower with the Arcadia lamp, that is becuse of the higher UVB content. the power output remains the same as 24ws.
> 
> http://www.narva-bel.de/ressourcen/datenblaetter/QD17124T5.03_LT-T5_NARVA_BIO_vital.pdf
> 
> so a very nice coloured lamp very simialr to our bird lamp which is based on the phillips 965 in colour, but without very much UVA or UVB. our T8 bird lamp is 2.4%uvb for interest.
> 
> john.


Fascinating,John it fooled us,as the guys pointed out, still like it though,mind you maybe the reflector is part of this,it seems just a more natural colour and of course i want that uvb helping the frogs along,thanks again
Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

It may be eventually possible to generate this very white, bright colour with a bit of a higher uv, but 0.4% is no good for anything really unless it's pretty much touching the animal. I have sent one to the international Lamp testing facility in holland, I'll see what they find.

If the amphib keepers want or require such a lamp please let me know, and I will do some investigating. I do feel that the D3 lamp ticks most boxes, a Good daylight colour a very high CRI and still keeping a balanced UV output.

The d3 lamp and reflector should give you the required 35-50 mws2 at around 50-65cms from the lamp.

John.






soundstounite said:


> Fascinating,John it fooled us,as the guys pointed out, still like it though,mind you maybe the reflector is part of this,it seems just a more natural colour and of course i want that uvb helping the frogs along,thanks again
> Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> It may be eventually possible to generate this very white, bright colour with a bit of a higher uv, but 0.4% is no good for anything really unless it's pretty much touching the animal. I have sent one to the international Lamp testing facility in holland, I'll see what they find.
> 
> If the amphib keepers want or require such a lamp please let me know, and I will do some investigating. I do feel that the D3 lamp ticks most boxes, a Good daylight colour a very high CRI and still keeping a balanced UV output.
> 
> The d3 lamp and reflector should give you the required 35-50 mws2 at around 50-65cms from the lamp.
> 
> John.


 I welcome all your imput john let us know whats revealed,i'm sure the others will follow up on this with more detailed thoughts,especially grumpy:whistling2:...he's quite nice really,my thought will always be for a less bright light for those 40 high vivs,with a valid uvb component,as before,but as you have already seen i really don't understand this like the other folks,i'm just watching cirtain species of frog and their behaviour leads me to this.
Really appreciate your expertise mate:notworthy:
regards
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Another viv on the go ,not telling who for :whistling2: want to watch it in situ to be sure first before the long wait,any way knackerd so lots of thought gone in to a build schedule that works and not a few headaches,pics
















































built so it all comes out,and we can do it the easy way,much depth also gone into no frogtraps on a viv like this
Stu


----------



## Sandsifter

soundstounite said:


> i think fungus from talking to folks Chris but again no science to back that statement,and same with the poisons pretty much, did say stabbing in the dark,that said i have heard of some breeders having,problems with skin problems with terribilis,and this being asscociated with the lack of skin toxins,its a good point you make about whether the tadpols actually carry these,don't know,actually if these toxins are synthised from what the adults eat then there is no reason to believe kids have this. I guess alot of how i think works this way,my veiws are rarely written in stone,more thoughts of approach.Damn sure i don't have answers though
> Stu


Me neither Stu. Huge difference is that you have live tads to look after and I'm just thinking aloud   I believe that makes you the responsible adult/driver  

Chris


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> Dane would add you'll need to think about drainage of the vivs,which will workinto the lighting spacebetwixt 2 vivs and under the bottom one...you need a bit of space under the bottom tank to put some shallow receptical...although not much it will affect your vivs height
> Stu


just looking at it again if i remove 2 shelfs i will have the bottom half at 70cm and the top at 77cm which would leave i think (had a few ciders mind) enough room may have to look again tomorrow when sober 

can i just say i have just craked open some homemade cider and wow its fab well worth the hassle :2thumb:


----------



## Wolfenrook

£20 price tag on the 24 watt tube.... Thanks but no thanks, I will continue with my biovitals and supplements.

Regards


----------



## FrogNick

looks good stu whats going in there?


----------



## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> Me neither Stu. Huge difference is that you have live tads to look after and I'm just thinking aloud   I believe that makes you the responsible adult/driver
> 
> Chris


 Ahh mate your proper cool you always make me smile:notworthy:,thankyou,just beginning Chris to get me head around this ,i don't know how far you are away but one day you ought to see this whilst all this tad stuff is in progress,i know your at it 24/7 but the down time will do ya good,if we ain't laughing too much that is:bash: still all good mate and another 2 lots of auratus have nearly hatched and started to hatch,ruddy mad mate,trying to slow em up now......trying
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> just looking at it again if i remove 2 shelfs i will have the bottom half at 70cm and the top at 77cm which would leave i think (had a few ciders mind) enough room may have to look again tomorrow when sober
> 
> can i just say i have just craked open some homemade cider and wow its fab well worth the hassle :2thumb:


brought up in devon in the teenage years,they use it as a milk replacement for kids down there,we've had to abstain...well we try:mf_dribble: lot made around here to with all the fruit growing in the vale.
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

You abstain from cider? WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU MAN!?


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> looks good stu whats going in there?


 will let on abit later Nick but it will be a GOOD while,if i said,i really want to watch temps,you can do the maths.:2thumb:
Nicky a guy called Toddger, Todd,was asking about breeding azzies,i gave him what i could,but course i aint done this yet, and am novice ,at the end of writting i remembered you:blush:,if my old brain was in gear,me hands wouldn't have fallen of,maybe you'ld have a look and tell him how it is really done,last week or so,chers dude.
Oh Nicky mysties good? when you going to show me some pics:mf_dribble:,and finally congrats on your season mate...i saw your repashy post...WELLDONE SIR:notworthy: good for you kiddo
seeya
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> You abstain from cider? WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU MAN!?


 nah...i eluded to it i said we try:mf_dribble::2thumb:,but tbf we probably have already had our fair share...the stuff we grew up on was good for stripping paint too mate: victory::lol2:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> £20 price tag on the 24 watt tube.... Thanks but no thanks, I will continue with my biovitals and supplements.
> 
> Regards


 you a happy bunny now:2thumb:
c'mon you know you want to really,
:lol2:
seriously Ade,untill you told us about lampspecs i was paying nearly that anyway so hell i'm sure with these,if i've read it right 0.4% ain't much is it. you already know that i feel this might be incredibly important for some darts more than others,some i feel might need real low light levels to max seeing them but ,as its all so early who knows,wish i had 10 yrs under me belt of obsevation of these,and a few trips to where they live,some chance huh!!
Buddy just something i do know for definite,start really thinking about your tadpoles and get ready mate,alot of your guys can't be far from breeding now and its an onslaught when it starts ,Ade. I wondered how mad it can get and it is totally silly kiddo,and i only have 4/5 females laying,probably 4.Its almost a continuous conveyer belt,litterally mate,be ready mate,if ya listen to nothing else listen to those words!!!!
:Na_Na_Na_Na:
jacky:lol2:


----------



## FrogNick

soundstounite said:


> will let on abit later Nick but it will be a GOOD while,if i said,i really want to watch temps,you can do the maths.:2thumb:
> Nicky a guy called Toddger, Todd,was asking about breeding azzies,i gave him what i could,but course i aint done this yet, and am novice ,at the end of writting i remembered you:blush:,if my old brain was in gear,me hands wouldn't have fallen of,maybe you'ld have a look and tell him how it is really done,last week or so,chers dude.
> Oh Nicky mysties good? when you going to show me some pics:mf_dribble:,and finally congrats on your season mate...i saw your repashy post...WELLDONE SIR:notworthy: good for you kiddo
> seeya
> Stu



OK i can take a guess Stu 

yeah got loads of azzie at the moment so will be bring some of the young and tads for sale, they are only a month old but I'm going to be away for a while in Peru so i wont be around so raise them unfortunately.

Got 8 mysties so far all doing really well I will be selling 2 adult at the UKFD as i don't need so many! Got some pics stu on my phone will send them to you, just been crazy busy this last month.

take care

Nick


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> OK i can take a guess Stu
> 
> yeah got loads of azzie at the moment so will be bring some of the young and tads for sale, they are only a month old but I'm going to be away for a while in Peru so i wont be around so raise them unfortunately.
> 
> Got 8 mysties so far all doing really well I will be selling 2 adult at the UKFD as i don't need so many! Got some pics stu on my phone will send them to you, just been crazy busy this last month.
> 
> take care
> 
> Nick


ha tell me about it,peru oh you lucky sod:gasp::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb: bugger just answered pm,if ya read this pm me again and show me which
belucky mate
Stu


----------



## Sandsifter

Arcadiajohn said:


> A24w lamp is the same power regardless of Kelvin. By adding more or less white and blue you can obtain a very bright stark white colour. Look at the sylvania 558s for a great white blue colour, the lumens will alter depending on the phosphor mix. For instance our marine hybrid has a lumen output of 740.
> 
> The difference with ours is that we have been able to use these natural colours and include huge amounts of UV without totally messing up the visible spectrum. With most Uv lamps you will notice that as the% increases the lamp becomes very blue. Ours do not increase in such a noticable way. We have a two phosphor coat process to achieve this.
> 
> For example the D3+ 24w lamp and reflector at 20cms is providing 274mws2 all along the lamp. The D3 is pumping out 124mws2. Now in context our wide angle 100w M.V D3 lamp is pushing 120-140 mws2. So you can see how efficient the T5 solution is at delivering a good amount of uv over a wide area. And we go right up to 54w. The D3 T5 lumen rating is 1100, the similar length T8 D3 has a lumen reading of 450, so T5 is over double the visible output. The CRI is a whopping 92 with a Kelvin of 7000k, so altogether not a bad lamp.
> 
> As I always publish we are still 20years from the perfect lamp, but my opinion is that this a huge jump in the right direction
> 
> 
> Gill from just air plants can advise independently as I know she is having great results at the moment.
> 
> John.


Hi John,

I recently read a quote from an Arcadia boss/spokesman that said the Chinese now control 99.dot of the worlds phosphor supply so Arcadia's tubes might go up in price 40% in the next year. Saw it either in PRK or one of the trade rags. That true?

So how much will an Arcadia tube cost me 5 yr, 10 yr and your 20 yr?

Chris

Found the quote. Its in Oct's PRK and quotes Gerald Oates, MD of Arcadia Products, "users should expect increases of between 25% and 45%" .


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Yes it's quite true, the china gov controls all rare earth mineral mines regardless of country. Over the last 2 year they have been winding up these prices. We have seen a 500% increase in raw material from this source.

What will this effect??

Well we are a bit behind as we have not had any increases for ages. Our biggest competitor put their prices up 5 times last year and I'm informed that they are due another 4 before Easter!!!!

All flouro lighting including quality LEDS contain phosphors so every lamp in the world apart from JVC germicidal lamps.

TVs, mobile phones, all Products with a screen, most electronics, jewellery,batteries, chemicals and medicines pretty much anything with a rare natural compound.

So not good news,,,,,,but instead of passing on this cost in full Arcadia have split the difference.so our products haven't gone up in real terms as much as some of our competitors.

The more phosphor that is used in a product the more expensive it will become of course. So quality, long life lamps will be more expensive due to the volume of minerals and the mix. We use a very expensive phosphor in our original tropical lamp so it will have been hit more than say a chinese cheap import lamp.

John


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Yes it's quite true, the china gov controls all rare earth mineral mines regardless of country. Over the last 2 year they have been winding up these prices. We have seen a 500% increase in raw material from this source.
> 
> What will this effect??
> 
> Well we are a bit behind as we have not had any increases for ages. Our biggest competitor put their prices up 5 times last year and I'm informed that they are due another 4 before Easter!!!!
> 
> All flouro lighting including quality LEDS contain phosphors so every lamp in the world apart from JVC germicidal lamps.
> 
> TVs, mobile phones, all Products with a screen, most electronics, jewellery,batteries, chemicals and medicines pretty much anything with a rare natural compound.
> 
> So not good news,,,,,,but instead of passing on this cost in full Arcadia have split the difference.so our products haven't gone up in real terms as much as some of our competitors.
> 
> The more phosphor that is used in a product the more expensive it will become of course. So quality, long life lamps will be more expensive due to the volume of minerals and the mix. We use a very expensive phosphor in our original tropical lamp so it will have been hit more than say a chinese cheap import lamp.
> 
> John


Alarming stuff John,mate how long are your uvb bulbs viable for? I'm under the impression that this type of bulb has quite a limited life span,or have i got that wrong?
Again thanks for the knowledge you are chucking into this thread,and also to Chris for bringing up the above point,
goodonya guys:notworthy:
Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

All Arcadia Uv lamps are guaranteed to be effective in the upper ranges of emmison for a whole year. We are very proud to offer this kind of quality and it certainly helps keepers by not having to buy so many lamps every year. In one case a famous brand of reptile lamp was shown that to provide the quantity of UV over a 12 month period of an Arcadia D3+ T8 lamp you would have to run 4 of these lamps at once and change the lot four times a year!! This is all because the % of UVB they advertise is calculated before the all important first 100 hour burn, because of now near 20year old phosphor patents the effective life span of UV production is around the 3 month mark. Arcadia lamps are calculated after the burn in. So if we take the total emission as 100%. in the case of the D3+, 12% of the total emission would be UVB.and this percentage would be very stable over this one year period. There will be some degradation towards month 11-12 but not enough to cause any concern. The lamps can then be used over animals with less requirement for a further 4-6months but check the output with a solar meter to be sure. A solar meter is the best "insurance policy" you can buy! Press a button and you are instantly 
sure of the efficacy of the photgradient you have provided.


John.


----------



## fardilis

nomatter how much arcadia bulbs go up there the only proper uv lamp brand available.

the popular exo terra uv bulbs last a max of 3months and there prices are skyrocketing:bash: imo exo terra bulbs should* never* be used


----------



## Ron Magpie

fardilis said:


> nomatter how much arcadia bulbs go up there the only proper uv lamp brand available.
> 
> the popular exo terra uv bulbs last a max of 3months and there prices are skyrocketing:bash: *imo exo terra bulbs should never be used*


I got one for my golden treefrog tank and it was pants. I'm using a bog-standard Wilkos low energy bulb in there at the mo- can't remember the wattage but the output is supposed to be equivalant to 74w or so. I was a bit dubious about the light quality, but the plants are starting to go mad, so something must be going right.


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> All Arcadia Uv lamps are guaranteed to be effective in the upper ranges of emmison for a whole year. We are very proud to offer this kind of quality and it certainly helps keepers by not having to buy so many lamps every year. In one case a famous brand of reptile lamp was shown that to provide the quantity of UV over a 12 month period of an Arcadia D3+ T8 lamp you would have to run 4 of these lamps at once and change the lot four times a year!! This is all because the % of UVB they advertise is calculated before the all important first 100 hour burn, because of now near 20year old phosphor patents the effective life span of UV production is around the 3 month mark. Arcadia lamps are calculated after the burn in. So if we take the total emission as 100%. in the case of the D3+, 12% of the total emission would be UVB.and this percentage would be very stable over this one year period. There will be some degradation towards month 11-12 but not enough to cause any concern. The lamps can then be used over animals with less requirement for a further 4-6months but check the output with a solar meter to be sure. A solar meter is the best "insurance policy" you can buy! Press a button and you are instantly
> sure of the efficacy of the photgradient you have provided.
> 
> 
> John.


 Thankyou mate much appreciated,can't think of other questions at presant but guess some of the folks might,thanks for your time
regards
Stu
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

I've alread scralwed alot of this elsewhere,and have pasted it here as well,due to the fact i think it might be hugely important to mysteriousus,i'm taking a big risk here guys,using a strong arcadia 6%uvb 24watt over our tadopoles, i would add that john has expressed reservations about my use of his product in this way, so totally take it on board that i have really thought deeply about this,and have recieved conflicting advice from some serious sources. Which once agin proves that there is no one right way to rear a dart frog...different things work for different guys.One highly estemmed source thinks there might be a link with this frog and uvb, and i'm tring to runwith this because my logic comes up with a similar senario....if you read this mate thanks for always being there to help us and support us...you rock:2thumb:
I have split my early hatches of mysties,some are able to get to the higher dose of uvb,but all are provided with some form of shade,so my hope is they can self regulate. Last night i actually would swear there were tadpols basking under the light,propping themselves up on the weed just under the surface. The vast majority of our tads are getting a biovital suspended around 50 cm above them,but the ones in the gizmo are getting a much higher dose. So far the biovital has seemingly no ill effect all tads are alive if i got them past week 1,all are morphing good and strong so far,no mysties have yet morphed,but its getting ever closer,we have 2 with front leg bumps.
i cannot yet find one single breeder whom morphed his first mysties tads: many have had the ultimate heartbreaking experiance of culling many many tads before getting one with strong legs.
So i'm risking some with this higher 6% 24watt arcadia bulb,i can be sure as i can with my knowledge of lighting, which we know aint good,that they are getting uvb,but i have a control running under the biovitals,as hard as it is to risk my much adored little tads like this,its gotta be the lesser of 2 evils,than culling all of them,that is of course with the proviso that all my wild grub attention to stockmans detail doesn't sort the problem if its is indeed diet,vit A,related. Of course, if all tads come out good,then there is no need for this high uvb lighting over this species of tad,if the ones under the biovital get sls and the higher dose survive then we have a good indication of how to get all breeders out of this problem without having to endure this heartache,and finally if the biovitals come good and the higher uvb guys suffer we also have anothe clear indicator of not to use higher uvb over tads.
What i'm not resigned to doing is waiting and seeing if our guys end up like all those others without actually trying a different method,but i am not going to chuck all my eggs in one basket and risk the lot.
Lets hope that we win this ruddy thing and i don't break,mine and Shaz's blumin hearts by having to cull lots of little spotty froglets,and that finally there is a method out there that prevents other folks with this fabulous little frog from having to endure this damn sls in this particular species.
Awonderful guy i talk to often,and also a top great breeder said to me today mysties should be evrywhere if it wasn't for this damn sls,he's right i think,judging by what we are seeing production wise,another 4 swam for the first time tonight,they don't let up once started .If there is a breeder out there whom has morphed his first mysties tads please contact us with any advice. pm would be great but i'm after a method for all guys keeping this frog.
there is a side issue that these problems could be due to an inbreeding issue with all these frogs comming from a limited gene pool.I'm not discounting that,this frog seems prone to oedema fitting mdb all might be rectified by the lights,its might not,but by the end of this season we might all have a little bit more of an understanding of how to breed this superb little spotty frog,maybe then we can get some form of proper breeding programme going and eventually do what i have always longed for,in some small way help out their wild counterparts 
ok back from the dreamer on with the viv
all the poly bits coated with rockoflex
































can't beat a good ol' chocolate lolly pop eh?:lol2:
and damn me but i had 3 little leucs doing a group hug and i ruddy missed it,oh well,i reckon they are just messing with me because we have so much going on already with just 2 species still a nice little pic though








bring it on
Stu


----------



## Sandsifter

Hi Stu, brilliant of John to reply to my question and of you to be cool with such gate-crashing..

I'd get me coat, if of course i could remember where i left it, and if the couch wasn't quite as comfy as it is, but a couple of thoughts on the lighting thing;

I've used Arcadia bulbs on my fish-tanks for so long I have no idea when i started with them. Can't think of a single complaint or problem I have with them. Been doing retail aquatics for about 7 years, in both big chain type stores and independents and like the Arcadia brand a lot; rarely have to deal with returns on their products. All good stuff. 

But!  

Imho they are maybe being driven into a "high end" corner of the market and will hit it hard. 

Fish-keepers on the whole change their bulbs when they stop working ( a tiny minority of our customers do otherwise) . Reef-keepers are a lot more into their bulbs but are experimenting with all-sorts because cost is a factor and because some of them feel they get better results with cheaper tubes; Arcadia is in the mix. "Serious" planted tank keepers are like hens teeth in this area and i can count on two hands how many plant pro tubes i've sold in 7 years. Must be a lot of plant pro's out there to sell.. We must have a dozen sitting there gathering dust. The nearest garden centre must be sitting on the same. That's 24 x £20 that could not be moved for love nor money until it became the coolest bulb for PDF owners (only a real cynic would think that of course)

Again, just my opinion, but their were so many references to the wonders of Arcadia Plant Pro T5's in that Oct PRK that it was hilarious to read. I'm used to seeing it in the fish-keeping stable mate but that was on a whole new level of product placement. They found their new "host"? or are their products that good? 

Be interesting to see what results you get Stu. Maybe it has found its niche and if it has I'll be buying. Be nice to put away the cynic's hat cause its bloody heavy..

I'd have been hard pressed to walk into any local fish shop over the last few years and buy anything other than Arcadia. Maybe a good thing when considering the failure rate/returns on some cheap chinese brands, but also a concern that they have effectively locked out other good brands/methods/thinking by their dominance and advertising spend rather than how good they are??

I don't understand the "science " claimed in the advertising of bulbs so its difficult to know what to do. I do know that we are replacing T5's and T'8s for LED's as fast as we can afford over our fish systems (but no issues about uvb with fish; its just a cost thing)

Chris


----------



## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> Hi Stu, brilliant of John to reply to my question and of you to be cool with such gate-crashing..
> 
> I'd get me coat, if of course i could remember where i left it, and if the couch wasn't quite as comfy as it is, but a couple of thoughts on the lighting thing;
> 
> I've used Arcadia bulbs on my fish-tanks for so long I have no idea when i started with them. Can't think of a single complaint or problem I have with them. Been doing retail aquatics for about 7 years, in both big chain type stores and independents and like the Arcadia brand a lot; rarely have to deal with returns on their products. All good stuff.
> 
> But!
> 
> Imho they are maybe being driven into a "high end" corner of the market and will hit it hard.
> 
> Fish-keepers on the whole change their bulbs when they stop working ( a tiny minority of our customers do otherwise) . Reef-keepers are a lot more into their bulbs but are experimenting with all-sorts because cost is a factor and because some of them feel they get better results with cheaper tubes; Arcadia is in the mix. "Serious" planted tank keepers are like hens teeth in this area and i can count on two hands how many plant pro tubes i've sold in 7 years. Must be a lot of plant pro's out there to sell.. We must have a dozen sitting there gathering dust. The nearest garden centre must be sitting on the same. That's 24 x £20 that could not be moved for love nor money until it became the coolest bulb for PDF owners (only a real cynic would think that of course)
> 
> Again, just my opinion, but their were so many references to the wonders of Arcadia Plant Pro T5's in that Oct PRK that it was hilarious to read. I'm used to seeing it in the fish-keeping stable mate but that was on a whole new level of product placement. They found their new "host"? or are their products that good?
> 
> Be interesting to see what results you get Stu. Maybe it has found its niche and if it has I'll be buying. Be nice to put away the cynic's hat cause its bloody heavy..
> 
> I'd have been hard pressed to walk into any local fish shop over the last few years and buy anything other than Arcadia. Maybe a good thing when considering the failure rate/returns on some cheap chinese brands, but also a concern that they have effectively locked out other good brands/methods/thinking by their dominance and advertising spend rather than how good they are??
> 
> I don't understand the "science " claimed in the advertising of bulbs so its difficult to know what to do. I do know that we are replacing T5's and T'8s for LED's as fast as we can afford over our fish systems (but no issues about uvb with fish; its just a cost thing)
> 
> Chris


hey mate,look a thread like this has to go off on one every now and again,it just has too ,it just isn't a problem to me,especially when the folks talking have deep thoughts to share, experiances just a bit leftfield,are also very relevent,water lights plants,there are a mass of different discaplines to be found in a dartster,tis great to see john yourself Ade debating stuff,the question you asked i was not aware of bring that stuff on kiddo,as with john bloody welcome mate Ade too,matters not to me,i love thoughtful debate,even though as i said earlier i'm somemwhat simplistic in my approach,untill i have a problem to solve,then i try to absorb as much as possible sort it anderm:blush: forget most of it..oh well,i'd play the age card mate but your older:Na_Na_Na_Na:.So am great ful for you ideas mate as with all:notworthy:.
Because i had so little interest you didn't actually see the leds get knocked up,our eventual set up will be a combo of these and the arcadia bulbs for uvb,trying to grab the best of both worlds,one rack is already installed with leds,the leds will run the long cyle and the uvb shorted in middle of day,trying to give a simple soln. to running costs not overloading the phibs with uvb and coupling this with the mixed glass viv tops, should give the frogs the options for what they need without forcing them too much,the self regulation thoery i guess.
Hopefully John will comment on your post mate,as most of it i am not able to,i also don't really understand the science,which is blatently obvious,and can't comment on the dominance of brands,nothing to base this on,i hope that the prices don't sore too much although a good product usually costs more and one does seem to get what one pays for. But i will always be one that wants the best i can afford,in the big scheme i guess it becomes cheep,when one looks at the value of the frogs and what they can produce,which would be fabulously illustrated by these mystie tads if my gamble pays off,with the higher uvb bulb. of course for us its aint about dollar its about breeding healthy little frogs and not having to deal with sls.i would pay alot for that i must say,cause it will :censor: me up killing guys with poor front legs that we have poured love into,i know sad but ya know,watching these guys grow, looking out for em: in this case for months, will be hardcore as it gets for me.
I gotta dash mate,sat for a mo to chill and have a looksee,gotta play little frogs Will end with still no more fungus:no1:,and tads hatching virtually evey day since we first spoke,i am utterly gobsmacked at where we are now,you come back as much as you want sir,and don't work too ruddy hard:whip:
Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Hi guys just to confirm,plant pro is not very useful in a viv! It send terrestrial plants mad!! Very tall and leggy,

The lamp that Jason reffered to is a brand new Plant GRO lamp called original tropical pro. It started life as a HO version of our original trop. Very quickly it had been taken on by the hydroponic community as it causes plants to "bush out" and flower very quickly,

This lamp emits light at the magic 650nms which is noted to have this effect on plants. 

This coupled with the fact that it offsets the tip burn associated with strong uv lamps close to plants makes the two a natural pair. I suggest you contact Gill from just air plants to ask her thoughts.

I'm really glad that we are getting up to date with the new advances in lighting.

I assure you when it's possible for LEDs to emit UV safely, we will be the first to have them

We already have an extensive range of aquatic LED products and are just about to launch a 30w halide replacement. But check the aquatic forums for that as it's not my dept.

John


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Hi guys just to confirm,plant pro is not very useful in a viv! It send terrestrial plants mad!! Very tall and leggy,
> 
> The lamp that Jason reffered to is a brand new Plant GRO lamp called original tropical pro. It started life as a HO version of our original trop. Very quickly it had been taken on by the hydroponic community as it causes plants to "bush out" and flower very quickly,
> 
> This lamp emits light at the magic 650nms which is noted to have this effect on plants.
> 
> This coupled with the fact that it offsets the tip burn associated with strong uv lamps close to plants makes the two a natural pair. I suggest you contact Gill from just air plants to ask her thoughts.
> 
> I'm really glad that we are getting up to date with the new advances in lighting.
> 
> I assure you when it's possible for LEDs to emit UV safely, we will be the first to have them
> 
> We already have an extensive range of aquatic LED products and are just about to launch a 30w halide replacement. But check the aquatic forums for that as it's not my dept.
> 
> John


john ha:lol2: so i understand :lol2 now there's a task) explain to us in laymans terms how led to uvb works what are its benefits how does it compare to the t5..it uses so little power,it can only be the future:2thumb:
this is something i thought was hugely expensive ,although i appreciate technology is moving fast 
Educate me mate!!
ha and ofcourse thanks
regards
Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Seriously were 10 years plus away from a commercially viable uv LED system. 

The aquatic guys have used them for a while and prices are falling. 

I have seen a short wavelength LED, but not into UVB and it was hundreds of pounds just to produce and it set fire to a chair when on test, so not even a starter!

We could use LEDS for illumination but not for solar recreation

Well not yet any way!

John


----------



## Spikebrit

Sandsifter said:


> Hi Stu, brilliant of John to reply to my question and of you to be cool with such gate-crashing..
> 
> I'd get me coat, if of course i could remember where i left it, and if the couch wasn't quite as comfy as it is, but a couple of thoughts on the lighting thing;
> 
> I've used Arcadia bulbs on my fish-tanks for so long I have no idea when i started with them. Can't think of a single complaint or problem I have with them. Been doing retail aquatics for about 7 years, in both big chain type stores and independents and like the Arcadia brand a lot; rarely have to deal with returns on their products. All good stuff.
> 
> But!
> 
> Imho they are maybe being driven into a "high end" corner of the market and will hit it hard.
> 
> Fish-keepers on the whole change their bulbs when they stop working ( a tiny minority of our customers do otherwise) . Reef-keepers are a lot more into their bulbs but are experimenting with all-sorts because cost is a factor and because some of them feel they get better results with cheaper tubes; Arcadia is in the mix. "Serious" planted tank keepers are like hens teeth in this area and i can count on two hands how many plant pro tubes i've sold in 7 years. Must be a lot of plant pro's out there to sell.. We must have a dozen sitting there gathering dust. The nearest garden centre must be sitting on the same. That's 24 x £20 that could not be moved for love nor money until it became the coolest bulb for PDF owners (only a real cynic would think that of course)
> 
> * Again, just my opinion, but their were so many references to the wonders of Arcadia Plant Pro T5's in that Oct PRK that it was hilarious to read. I'm used to seeing it in the fish-keeping stable mate but that was on a whole new level of product placement. They found their new "host"? or are their products that good? *
> 
> Be interesting to see what results you get Stu. Maybe it has found its niche and if it has I'll be buying. Be nice to put away the cynic's hat cause its bloody heavy..
> 
> I'd have been hard pressed to walk into any local fish shop over the last few years and buy anything other than Arcadia. Maybe a good thing when considering the failure rate/returns on some cheap chinese brands, but also a concern that they have effectively locked out other good brands/methods/thinking by their dominance and advertising spend rather than how good they are??
> 
> I don't understand the "science " claimed in the advertising of bulbs so its difficult to know what to do. I do know that we are replacing T5's and T'8s for LED's as fast as we can afford over our fish systems (but no issues about uvb with fish; its just a cost thing)
> 
> Chris



The article you are referring to in PRK is mine . The bulbs I refereed to were the tropical pro bulbs rather then the plant pro, two different bulbs. the plant pro will cause the plant to bolt and go all weedy from my experience. Having tested both over the years. 

There are various bulbs that can be used for plant growth, as I'm sure you are aware from bio vitals, narva etc. I use arcadia T5 bulbs for uv, (by far the best UV bulbs IMO when you look at UV output) and in addition i use their tropical pro bulbs for growth. There are similar bulbs available but i like the arcadia tropical pro bulbs for growth - personal opinion and I also like the fact that they bring out the colour really well in plants particularly noticeable in the tillies. I use the tropical pro bulbs in a few of my planted vivs, and I am deffently a convert and find it a very good bulb for growth. I have and still do use other grow bulbs but i still like the tropical pro bulbs, hence using them in the discussed article.

You will notice in the final series of articles i compiled i discussed the colour changes in T.concolour under the tropical pro bulb. I have used T.concolour in a few vivs under various lighting and have never managed to bring out the pink blush, however placed under the tropical pro bulb you could see the colour changes. Myself and the tillisanda nursery owner were surprised at the colour changes and following a few further test both put it down to the tropical pro bulb. Exactly what made the colour change under this bulb compared to others I don't know, but it is noted in research that only strong natural lighting stimulates the t.concolour to 'blush'. 

Before you go down that route I have no ties with Arcadia, i'm not on their payrole etc I just strongly support Arcadia UV and use their grow bulbs.. I just really like their bulbs lol. I'm sure i also mentioned other bulbs as well that could be used, not just arcadia. 

Not really sure what you were getting at, but i hope that answers a few questions, if not please feel free to ask them and i shall try and answer them. 

However, it all boils down to my preference for bulbs, and personally i have had good success with arcadia T5 bulbs and will continue to use them, with a few alterations i think their tropical pro bulbs could differently be even more amazing. 

Jay

p.s. look forward to seeing you all at frog day, will be behind a table in a purple hoody with some unsuaul frogs such as reeds etc. 

p.p.s. hope that didnt come along as being sharp, it's so hard to write a reply without it being taken the wrong way on the internet lol.


----------



## Sandsifter

Jay, please understand i was not picking on any one article in what i said about PRK, just giving my overall impression that the mag read like an advert for Arcadia to me. No slur on any individual's contribution intended at all; fwiw it was the subject matter of your article that made me buy the magazine and a good read it was too. 

To explain my thinking;

Page 4. Arcadia boss tells the reader to prepare for big price increases.
Page 25. John says in reply to a question "and since Arcadias UV lamps provide a useful amount of UVA as well as UVB, i regard the inclusion of these lamps as being part of their life support system.

I have certainly not had any trouble with feeding my snakes since the inclusion of these lamps and shedding is complete in record time"

Page 26. "I am using both an Arcadia T5 D3 6% UV bulb and the Arcadia T5 tropical pro bulb.

I am convinced that the most significant part of this lighting system which has encouraged the plant growth, is the tropical pro bulb"

Page 38. A competition with prizes by Arcadia, Just Air plants and Luck reptile.

and yet no actual Arcadia adverts to be seen anywhere, nor any adverts for any kind of lighting come to that. I've seen enough in the fishkeeping world to know that you get nought for free with the mags and theres always a balance between the needs of paying advertisers and the readership. Can't be an easy thing to get right but imho this was a stinker.

Your article was a good read Jay and what you say about the Arcadia tubes was read by me as genuine stuff to be listened too.

Chris


----------



## Sandsifter

Arcadiajohn said:


> Hi guys just to confirm,plant pro is not very useful in a viv! It send terrestrial plants mad!! Very tall and leggy,
> 
> The lamp that Jason reffered to is a
> 
> 
> 
> brand new Plant GRO lamp called original tropical pro
> 
> 
> 
> . It started life as a HO version of our original trop. Very quickly it had been taken on by the hydroponic community as it causes plants to "bush out" and flower very quickly,
> 
> This lamp emits light at the magic 650nms which is noted to have this effect on plants.
> 
> This coupled with the fact that it offsets the tip burn associated with strong uv lamps close to plants makes the two a natural pair. I suggest you contact Gill from just air plants to ask her thoughts.
> 
> I'm really glad that we are getting up to date with the new advances in lighting.
> 
> I assure you when it's possible for LEDs to emit UV safely, we will be the first to have them
> 
> We already have an extensive range of aquatic LED products and are just about to launch a 30w halide replacement. But check the aquatic forums for that as it's not my dept.
> 
> John
Click to expand...

Hi John,

Thanks for putting me right on my mistake in assuming the t5 Plant pro was the bulb in question, rather than the


> brand new Plant GRO lamp called original tropical pro


. 

So is this new "plant gro" bulb one is "*T5 Original Tropical Pro*
"A new high performance T5 lamp formulated with a warmer spectrum than the Plant Pro lamp, allowing the creation of a richer, more tropical look in an aquarium."

If so, got them sitting on the shelves too. How far apart are the offices of your "Aquatics" and "Reptile" people?

Whatever they were originally designed for, if respected people are getting good results using them for other purposes then I'm gonna listen.

Stu, I'd like to hear a lot more about your LED thinking and journey if possible please. 

Chris


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Yes that's the lamp, originally developed to work alongside plant pro over water to get better results, we have just been very luck to discover it's also very useful terrestrially. Try one you will be supprised.

With regard to PRK. 

We have a good working relationship with multiple mags. I personaly write for PRK, cage and aviary and PPM as well as spending hours everyday on four forums and facebook. I have features our somewhere every month. I receive nothing in the way of payment for the thousands of words I produce. We do though have adds in PRK most months. There was not one last month as the money went to the T5 system prize, which I hope someone on here wins!!!!!

PRK are very balanced and advertise all sorts of manafactures, no payments are made like they are to most contributors of any kind. They also understand what we are trying to do, by pushing boundaries and making reptile keeping easier and more ethically sound.

We simply rely on a end consumer based customer service and actualy taking the time to talk and advise the end consumer.

John


----------



## Spikebrit

Sandsifter said:


> Jay, please understand i was not picking on any one article in what i said about PRK, just giving my overall impression that the mag read like an advert for Arcadia to me. No slur on any individual's contribution intended at all; fwiw it was the subject matter of your article that made me buy the magazine and a good read it was too.
> 
> To explain my thinking;
> 
> Page 4. Arcadia boss tells the reader to prepare for big price increases.
> Page 25. John says in reply to a question "and since Arcadias UV lamps provide a useful amount of UVA as well as UVB, i regard the inclusion of these lamps as being part of their life support system.
> 
> I have certainly not had any trouble with feeding my snakes since the inclusion of these lamps and shedding is complete in record time"
> 
> Page 26. "I am using both an Arcadia T5 D3 6% UV bulb and the Arcadia T5 tropical pro bulb.
> 
> I am convinced that the most significant part of this lighting system which has encouraged the plant growth, is the tropical pro bulb"
> 
> Page 38. A competition with prizes by Arcadia, Just Air plants and Luck reptile.
> 
> and yet no actual Arcadia adverts to be seen anywhere, nor any adverts for any kind of lighting come to that. I've seen enough in the fishkeeping world to know that you get nought for free with the mags and theres always a balance between the needs of paying advertisers and the readership. Can't be an easy thing to get right but imho this was a stinker.
> 
> Your article was a good read Jay and what you say about the Arcadia tubes was read by me as genuine stuff to be listened too.
> 
> Chris


I didnt mean it to sounds like i was having ago. I do see what you mean and it is a logical conclusion, but i do feel it was slightly more coincidental then a deliberate plug by arcadia. 

Anyway, glad you liked the articles, was good fun writting them 

Jay


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Seriously were 10 years plus away from a commercially viable uv LED system.
> 
> The aquatic guys have used them for a while and prices are falling.
> 
> I have seen a short wavelength LED, but not into UVB and it was hundreds of pounds just to produce and it set fire to a chair when on test, so not even a starter!
> 
> We could use LEDS for illumination but not for solar recreation
> 
> Well not yet any way!
> 
> John


 apologies John, i didn't read your post very well..DOH,the chair made me smile,though:mf_dribble:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> Hi John,
> 
> Thanks for putting me right on my mistake in assuming the t5 Plant pro was the bulb in question, rather than the .
> 
> So is this new "plant gro" bulb one is "[URL="http://www.arcadia-uk.info/img/product/icons/otpro_linearlamp_thumbnail.jpg"]image[/URL]*T5 Original Tropical Pro*
> "A new high performance T5 lamp formulated with a warmer spectrum than the Plant Pro lamp, allowing the creation of a richer, more tropical look in an aquarium."
> 
> If so, got them sitting on the shelves too. How far apart are the offices of your "Aquatics" and "Reptile" people?
> 
> Whatever they were originally designed for, if respected people are getting good results using them for other purposes then I'm gonna listen.
> 
> Stu, I'd like to hear a lot more about your LED thinking and journey if possible please.
> 
> Chris


 Chris i'll put more detail up next few days,we have been using them on the 12 viv rack on roughly a 12 hour cycle,they are 1200 lumen/ M and i think 15watts/m,once the vivs get frogs we are supplimenting this with a uvb bulb. Plants look fine growth seems good,but not rampant,mind you i'm not after really fast growth as it means more disturbance to the frogs,i deliberatley try to pick fairly slow growing stuff. no real issues to speak of they have been running since around the turn of the year,they are not the highest spec leds like say the cree lamps, but they seem to work well...do the job !! they cost around £30/m plus a transformer £60 which will run 9m if i remember correctly,enough to sort both racks,anyway.They got me out of a hole at the time needed alot of lights for all our plants,and running costs are oviously low with them,7.5watts per50x50x40high viv,with so many vivs to eventually run this is of course a huge benefit
regards
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

Am I the only one who laughed out loud at 'the hydroponics community'?:lol2: There's a 'ponics shop near work, where I get my leca- very popular with said 'community'...:whistling2:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Am I the only one who laughed out loud at 'the hydroponics community'?:lol2: There's a 'ponics shop near work, where I get my leca- very popular with said 'community'...:whistling2:


 no mate not the only one at all,we clocked it,just too focused on the froggy stuff,:blush:,somewhat distracted of late
Stu


----------



## Sandsifter

Arcadiajohn said:


> Yes that's the lamp, originally developed to work alongside plant pro over water to get better results, we have just been very luck to discover it's also very useful terrestrially. Try one you will be supprised.
> 
> With regard to PRK.
> 
> We have a good working relationship with multiple mags. I personaly write for PRK, cage and aviary and PPM as well as spending hours everyday on four forums and facebook. I have features our somewhere every month. I receive nothing in the way of payment for the thousands of words I produce. We do though have adds in PRK most months. There was not one last month as the money went to the T5 system prize, which I hope someone on here wins!!!!!
> 
> PRK are very balanced and advertise all sorts of manafactures, no payments are made like they are to most contributors of any kind. They also understand what we are trying to do, by pushing boundaries and making reptile keeping easier and more ethically sound.
> 
> We simply rely on a end consumer based customer service and actualy taking the time to talk and advise the end consumer.
> 
> John


Hi John,

Used loads of them over stock tanks in the retail trade and mainly hated them; T5 lamps may look great at a trade show, impressing the big chain buyers who are looking for theatre and wow factor, but they are a nightmare to live with when the same chain decides its going to open 12 hours a day.

Its a merry dance but one that does not budget for the "morning after" costs like staffing to clean algae off tanks when a t5 is on 12 hours a day. Horses for courses and all that, but for my purposes gimmie back the old T8 grolux any day!  

No idea what terms like "ethically sound" or "simply rely on a end consumer based customer service and actualy taking the time to talk and advise the end consumer."

actually mean. 

Chris


Those "different" mag's you write for are all the same company or stable of companies?


----------



## Sandsifter

Spikebrit said:


> I didnt mean it to sounds like i was having ago. I do see what you mean and it is a logical conclusion, but i do feel it was slightly more coincidental then a deliberate plug by arcadia.
> 
> Anyway, glad you liked the articles, was good fun writting them
> 
> Jay


Bright blue "day gecko", planted viv, then this month ,Reed frogs. PRK owe you two months subscription from me away. Go take a step back and look at the advertising and tell us what you think?


----------



## soundstounite

Well the long long long long .....LONG wait is nearly over......well nearly,in mystie terms might mean another ruddy month,:whistling2:
So i guess ya all know what i'm talking about,go back a bit and you'll find some detail on how we have gone out there a bit playing a hunch on how to get around this problem of morphing mysties.We are definitely not there quite yet but maybe we are going to get lucky,this one is under the lower dose of uvb,in a few days i guess its sibling will pop its front legs and then if i remember correctly another should be comming through very soon.Only when they are OOTW will we truely know and then the rest of the season needs to play out,what it sure is we have a tad with 4 legs and i can compare to 3 more auratus that are a couple of days in front sitting in the morph out tub,and they look almost the same shape same size arms etc etc. as the other species.Given that mysties are smaller in the arm/leg department i've got me postative hat on.
So now we just gotta wait








Prudy little thing:mf_dribble: though,c'mon ickle mystie.
I can't say other than this is developing into total madness here now,be great if i can find a home for all the plants inside and still be able to live in our house:blush:.
We bought a pr of adult tincs recently,we were told they are a couple,we have taken a risk and put them straight into a viv this time,simply put if things go wrong then i'll scrap the viv and make another one,but these guys are more important to us than the tank we crafted,no pics yet they are too shy ,but what has my jaw dropping is the absolute affection they show for each other...they are bloody frogs its mind numbing to see how close they are to each other,i'm totally stunned,i don't think they have moved more than a couple of inches apart from each other since they came here,when they came out of their tubs they ran up to each other and all the stroking started,yesterday got in from work to see her asleep with her head on his back and an arn around him,magical.
ya never know i might get some time soon to play with these tanks i'm working up,
bring it on
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Bit more detail rushing...
















now in morph out container
seeya 
Stu


----------



## FrogNick

well done Stu looks good, I'm sure it will go all the way!


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> well done Stu looks good, I'm sure it will go all the way!


 Time will tell Nicky,got a morph out container rammed with springs,just down to how much it wants it now i guess,can't really do much more now,just a side note observation,its still feeding,our auratus i guess would have stopped now,so its got a good dose of live grub to hopefully give it a bit more bulk to see it through meta.,all digits crossed,thanks mate
regards
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Back to that viv,here is the rockwork completed,on the 3 panels and the infill








bit more detail of same
















and the only rock on the fake tree pannel








then we added the epoxy and covered in the usual mix to here's one panel as it was tricky to move the others whist wet








detail showing the rebate to fit over cork








different angle








oops forgot them rocks:blush:








bit more detail








as always due care will be given to access in assenbly...which has been a headache on creation...ha but whats new:mf_dribble:
bring it on 
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

panels in, siliconed in place,edges worked in with silcone damp bit of wood and subs mix
























rocks placed in and after a dry run which you see here then we siliconed just 4 yup i can build a wall:mf_dribble: well out of stone anyway,and maybe bricks but i don't care for the squares/ rectangles whatever..give me some wobbly stuff,but as above the real reason is i can strip this out real easy if something goes pear shaped,plants and roots will do the rest of the stabilising for me








bit more detail








and a top view which is just for you guys...no one will ever see it








got started on the top but light meant game over
seeya
regards
Stu
PS
ha ha mystie no 2 has an elbow out,rest will follow hopefully


----------



## zekee

That looks amazing! Little bit jealous.


----------



## fardilis

zekee said:


> That looks amazing! Little bit jealous.


who isn't?

a room full of darts:mf_dribble:


----------



## soundstounite

zekee said:


> That looks amazing! Little bit jealous.


 thanks mate but totally achievable by all of us,just gotta get the head down and go for it:lol2: and er keep going for it,slow but sure.
cheers
Stu


----------



## zekee

Only started reading in this part of forum yesterday but been fascinated by darts since I was a child, so thinking next year im going to go for it, your thread is a big inspiration.


----------



## soundstounite

fardilis said:


> who isn't?
> 
> a room full of darts:mf_dribble:


ha well one day buddy oneday,mind you the tads are taking over scarey taking over,i think yeah we getting in under control,and.......:mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble:,better go and move another actually
seeya
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

zekee said:


> Only started reading in this part of forum yesterday but been fascinated by darts since I was a child, so thinking next year im going to go for it, your thread is a big inspiration.


 Thanks mate,yeah they go back a bit with me too,i kept other stuff as a kid though,me and me mate next door kept alsorts,i'm almost 100% he had a bluejeans pum,sweet little thing but man was it small, little suggestion get some dwarf white woods in now, damn slow at first,enjoy your reserch buddy,lots of help about as you have already found.
here now this is abit inspiring........


Sorry about the weird camera angle but only way i could get the shot without scaring little fella,no one mystie sort of trying out land look at that tummy,ha we did stuff him i'm sure i mentioned it,ahh man so cool









and here's the little bro or sis
















some rough facts:
water temp around 72,bit more in the hot spell, eggs pulled 28th june,as they were our first we were not looking for them so they were well developed ,they take around 14 days to hatch here.
so around 4 months in the water, and we had 3 good eggs one bad in that first clutch.oh an there is one more to come which has always been much rounder in shape than the other 2,the second/3rd tads had the higher dose of uvb at the end and a much closer dose right the way through and were reared in the gizmo,diet cycloops EEZE,tetramin,algea grown on elodea,and box sides, bit of oakleaf always available for munching and shade fron uvb,and the livestuff mainly bloodworms but mossy larvea also,although these don't seem to nail the mossi like the auratus do,and other midge larvea too.uvb lower dose 14 watt biovital,higher dose arcadia 24watt 6% Parent diet...suppliment repashy Ca plus dwarf white woods mels hydie springtails folsuma candida,wild native grey springs, baby native woods at least 3 species mites greenfly small spiders other wild small stuff:mf_dribble:
about all i got i think
seeya
Stu


----------



## beginnersluck

Just read as far as pg 71, talk about hard work ( the building that is not the reading :whistling2 saw results so far in person yesterday. Could have spent all day just watching them !!! I know nothing about frogs and prob never will but will get my fix reading your thread and hopefully visiting again before my kids are 23 ! :lol2::lol2::lol2: Right back to reading now pg 71 here i come:2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

beginnersluck said:


> Just read as far as pg 71, talk about hard work ( the building that is not the reading :whistling2 saw results so far in person yesterday. Could have spent all day just watching them !!! I know nothing about frogs and prob never will but will get my fix reading your thread and hopefully visiting again before my kids are 23 ! :lol2::lol2::lol2: Right back to reading now pg 71 here i come:2thumb:


 bummer init,i felt relatively youthfull untill this frog malarky:blush:,go head to head with a 20yr old drummer,same on a building site mauling stuff:whistling2:, but every time i mention me mate/kid,tis like "dude for gods sake retire:lol2:" yeah i ought, but too an expensive luxary, not really for moi,so now quitely and suruptiously am learning to breed darts 'corse they are younger than me and er move faster,so as always just hanging on,but if i said i wasn't loving it i'd be not quite telling the truth,def. bewildered by it all,but always graft it out,it ain't work never will be thats the crap i have done to keep our family going this is different,little frogs come to see me when i come home and go have a chat with them,me lady gets some friends to talk too when i'm grafting, we hand feed little blobs of jelly with tails that turn into some of the most stunningly beautiful creatures nature made,yeah mate,get your fix,we do,but it aint hard work,there is alot to do for sure,and daily there is more to the stockmans routine,more to ponder on and to do but work nah am loving this am privalidged,tis aproper good old rollercoaster,a blast,good luck with page 72 god knows what cobblers was written there too old to remember:mf_dribble::lol2: but your enjoying thats cool,nuff said,cheers
bring it on
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

last one of the first lot
















Our beautiful lovebirds wow are these guys affectionate mt attachibakka









































Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

That's a right result stu!

A medal for services to rare dendros should be awarded!

John


----------



## zekee

Beautiful frogs.


----------



## soundstounite

foks bare wtih me whilst i sort stuff,car died computer died and more ugg,and a little bit of get in too,trying to get to grips,
belucky 
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

soundstounite said:


> foks bare wtih me whilst i sort stuff,car died computer died and more ugg,and a little bit of get in too,trying to get to grips,
> belucky
> Stu


When Stu first joined the forum I wouldn't have been able to decipher this, but now I can :mf_dribble:


----------



## zekee

I havent a clue? Care to enlighten us?


----------



## Morgan Freeman

zekee said:


> I havent a clue? Care to enlighten us?


Please wait for future updates I have a few things going on, for one my car died and on top of that my battery died. There is however some good news, just trying to get on top of everything right now.

I hope you find good fortune.


----------



## zekee

Brilliant thank you. Btw what language is it? Lol


----------



## soundstounite

zekee said:


> Brilliant thank you. Btw what language is it? Lol


its called
Stuism...cheers Paul...nearly not battery but computer!! lost everything!!! car nearly caught fire,
zeeke its a shorthand that its worth...maybe:lol2:, delving into,i do it when rushed i leave folks to fill in the blanks that i haven't time to type,my apologies for not speaking the Queens English:blush:,because i'm incredible pressed,i'd rather give a bit of explanation of why i haven't answered than nothing,once i can work this machine i'll try to answer in a more complete form:2thumb:honest:lol2:
and he is bang on i DO wish you well!!!!
Stu:lol2:


----------



## zekee

soundstounite said:


> its called
> Stuism...cheers Paul...nearly not battery but computer!! lost everything!!! car nearly caught fire,
> zeeke its a shorthand that its worth...maybe:lol2:, delving into,i do it when rushed i leave folks to fill in the blanks that i haven't time to type,my apologies for not speaking the Queens English:blush:,because i'm incredible pressed,i'd rather give a bit of explanation of why i haven't answered than nothing,once i can work this machine i'll try to answer in a more complete form:2thumb:honest:lol2:
> and he is bang on i DO wish you well!!!!
> Stu:lol2:


No worries mate. Really enjoying this thread btw.


----------



## Sandsifter

Dear Stu,

I feel let down by your lack of commitment to this thread; while I appreciate the little difficulties you may be experiencing, that does not give you the right to end the contract for entertainment and education you entered into.

A car cannot "die" as you stupidly suggest; but it can be scrapped and you need to fill out the appropriate forms. 

I have passed my concerns on to the appropriate authorities so you should expect a visit by the RSPCA/Consumers Association tactical squad about 6 am.

Raving again  Tomorrows a new day : victory: 

Chris


----------



## ilovetoads2

Alright mate! Been a long while...and my havent you been busy!?

I did not read all 117 pages, but see you have been breeding...lovely.


----------



## Ron Magpie

ilovetoads2 said:


> Alright mate! Been a long while...and my havent you been busy!?
> 
> I did not read all 117 pages, but see you have been breeding...lovely.


 Read 'em- they're worth it, even with Stu's 'exotic' syntax!:lol2: Did you manage to offload the baby geckos?


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> That's a right result stu!
> 
> A medal for services to rare dendros should be awarded!
> 
> John


nearly john and i appreciate the kindness,but not worthy yet,bit sad this will explain more later,
best
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

beginnersluck said:


> Just read as far as pg 71, talk about hard work ( the building that is not the reading :whistling2 saw results so far in person yesterday. Could have spent all day just watching them !!! I know nothing about frogs and prob never will but will get my fix reading your thread and hopefully visiting again before my kids are 23 ! :lol2::lol2::lol2: Right back to reading now pg 71 here i come:2thumb:


Sorry sweatheart, i'm just simply not the sharpest tool in the box...lights are on but no one home,i'll go hide under a fake rock:blush::blush::blush:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

zekee said:


> No worries mate. Really enjoying this thread btw.


cheers its one of them rollercoasters,this one!!
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> Dear Stu,
> 
> I feel let down by your lack of commitment to this thread; while I appreciate the little difficulties you may be experiencing, that does not give you the right to end the contract for entertainment and education you entered into.
> 
> A car cannot "die" as you stupidly suggest; but it can be scrapped and you need to fill out the appropriate forms.
> 
> I have passed my concerns on to the appropriate authorities so you should expect a visit by the RSPCA/Consumers Association tactical squad about 6 am.
> 
> Raving again  Tomorrows a new day : victory:
> 
> Chris


brilliant:notworthy:,
car is actually a pheonix,nearly caught fire but has risen from the ashes,due to being bewildered by lawers and big words that were used,i,have forfitted the right to attempt any educational work here,although my rights to make a complete fool of meself have been enhanced :whistling2:
i also now have even less skill with this new gizmo
I'm attempting to type on,and don't know WTF my photos are now,but it appears life must go on.
My get out of jail card didn't work either am posting from longlartin

thanks mate needed that:no1:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

ilovetoads2 said:


> Alright mate! Been a long while...and my havent you been busy!?
> 
> I did not read all 117 pages, but see you have been breeding...lovely.


Hey mate,cool to hear from you Mariette:2thumb: hope your well,er yup the little guys are keeping us on our toes ha ha and some!!!!!! little froggy feet all ways now, the little super blues colours are amazing really brilliant/vibrant,cool watching the markings develope,loving it!!!
don't be a stranger mate:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

The real hard bit weren't the computer going awol or the car,it was this,2 of our little mysties died unfortunately,they just never seemed to start feeding,one is still going so my initial thought is that,maybe i had a bit more weight on the one that is still going.This time in a young frogs life has always been of greatest concearn to me,once i see that little tummy swell or even better,actually see it feeding,we both start to relax abit. It knocked us both,back lossing them,we haven't lost any actual frogs yet so after getting them though morph without what we had been dreading sls i thought we might just nail it,properly gutted but its livestock,life goes on,here, no time to be sad for too long,the frogs don't let us.We now have a breeding group of leucs,and unbelievably the very first clutch is fertile, yup it was the pielady:2thumb: not really expecting a hatch but then all the breeding is shocking really,we now have around 14 little auratus out :2thumb:growing well and nothing is letting up much despite us trying to stop them,although egg frequency has dropped abit . Oh and in the last hour our little citronella male has found his voice,ha and i can actually hear it :whistling2:
So properly sad about our little mysties but one still going,ya never know,and as above the wheels keep turning,tonight another one popped good legs,its a little stunner,loads of white purdy as they come,we have been both stuffing it with grub trying to make it as strong as we possibly can to face the trials ahead.and another auratus wants to get ootw,as well,more good legs 
bring it on HUH!!!
Stu


----------



## Sandsifter

soundstounite said:


> brilliant:notworthy:,
> car is actually a pheonix,nearly caught fire but has risen from the ashes,due to being bewildered by lawers and big words that were used,i,have forfitted the right to attempt any educational work here,although my rights to make a complete fool of meself have been enhanced :whistling2:
> i also now have even less skill with this new gizmo
> I'm attempting to type on,and don't know WTF my photos are now,but it appears life must go on.
> My get out of jail card didn't work either am posting from longlartin
> 
> thanks mate needed that:no1:
> Stu


Mate is spelt m8 btw :bash:


----------



## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> Mate is spelt m8 btw :bash:


maths and english in 2 constnants,you must be joking:mf_dribble:

I think these got loaded as my computer expiredhere's the rack with the new viv in








and another attachibakka shot








Stu


----------



## zekee

Only a little bit jealous. Looking good mate.


----------



## danbutler

I need a Stu built dart room :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:


----------



## fardilis

danbutler said:


> I need a Stu built dart room :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:



seconded


----------



## zekee

Thrirded!


----------



## Heim

That is actually amazing... brb going to count my piggy bank again! lol


----------



## fardilis

you could make a succesfull buisness out of this stu


STU'S DART ROOM'S small- £200 / medium- £400 / large- £600 / xlarge- £750

you could make quite alot of money


----------



## soundstounite

zekee said:


> Only a little bit jealous. Looking good mate.


As before mate ,we are not all fortunate to have a room sure,i waited a long time for that,but the rest is there for the taking,just head down read ask read ask go on buddy make us proud it not a rush ,just graft at it,
thanks buddy opps sorry M*...nearly m8
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

fardilis said:


> you could make a succesfull buisness out of this stu
> 
> 
> STU'S DART ROOM'S small- £200 / medium- £400 / large- £600 / xlarge- £750
> 
> you could make quite alot of money


Not at those prices.


----------



## zekee

Yeah im going to go for it m8 dont you worry, me and the misses have just brought our first house, so brilliant I can do what I want finally no silly landlords! woop woop!


----------



## Morgan Freeman

zekee said:


> Yeah im going to go for it m8 dont you worry, me and the misses have just brought our first house, so brilliant I can do what I want finally no silly landlords! woop woop!


You'll need some plant cuttings to get you going OH IM SELLING SOME.


----------



## zekee

Yeah, fully aware of that Morgan, will you have some next year? Or possibly I could grow them on a bit this year ready for planting in my viv? What you think Honestly?


----------



## fardilis

Morgan Freeman said:


> Not at those prices.



for example

i know they would be several x that in reality


----------



## Morgan Freeman

zekee said:


> Yeah, fully aware of that Morgan, will you have some next year? Or possibly I could grow them on a bit this year ready for planting in my viv? What you think Honestly?


I'm just messing. Don't get any until you're ready and have the viv set up.

I pretty much always have cuttings available, I just need to shift some as my tanks are literally bursting right now.


----------



## zekee

No worries mate, appreciate the honesty.


----------



## soundstounite

,


fardilis said:


> you could make a succesfull buisness out of this stu
> 
> 
> STU'S DART ROOM'S small- £200 / medium- £400 / large- £600 / xlarge- £750
> 
> you could make quite alot of money


lmfao ahh thanks guys real kind:notworthy:,erm Fardilis you forgot sommit there me thinks,maybe a 0 on the end,how much do you guys pay for a viv? a brom?:whistling2:
hugely flattering guys,but although this malarky has not cost the earth and as i''ve said a few times before a lot of the reason i have spent so much time on this thread,is to say look YOU can do this,
Some money would be nice though:2thumb:,i have desires for some frogs that cost a ruddy fortune:gasp:,ha and i'd love to chuck some funds into a conservation project to secure a bit of rainforest,where these frogs live,or such like,see we can all dream
Stu 
r


----------



## fardilis

soundstounite said:


> ,
> 
> lmfao ahh thanks guys real kind:notworthy:,erm Fardilis you forgot sommit there me thinks,maybe a 0 on the end,how much do you guys pay for a viv? a brom?:whistling2:
> hugely flattering guys,but although this malarky has not cost the earth and as i''ve said a few times before a lot of the reason i have spent so much time on this thread,is to say look YOU can do this,
> Some money would be nice though:2thumb:,i have desires for some frogs that cost a ruddy fortune:gasp:,ha and i'd love to chuck some funds into a conservation project to secure a bit of rainforest,where these frogs live,or such like,see we can all dream
> Stu
> r


well i ment it as an example though an extra 0 on the end would male sense



STU'S DART ROOM'S small- £2000 / medium- £4000 / large- £6000 / xlarge- £7500


----------



## soundstounite

zekee said:


> Yeah im going to go for it m8 dont you worry, me and the misses have just brought our first house, so brilliant I can do what I want finally no silly landlords! woop woop!


thats proper cool always feel that those of us lucky to get on the ladder are so damn lucky,don't rush though buddy its real hard not to want these frogs tomorrow,well ok ya want,you know what i mean, and depending on what Morgan is selling plant wise i might actually disagree with him even though he's been dead straight with you,a little propergator and you could grow some on,its another little bit of learning for you,you don't need any lights or anything just a window where the sun won't get to them,we did this with our plants,ok we bought actual plants but,took lots of cuttings to save some bucks and to learn about them,it was the first thing we did,just don't plant them in that damn ecoearth,it has its uses but not for our plants!!
Stu


----------



## zekee

Still deciding on what plants id like. so many. Think im going to need a book!


----------



## soundstounite

fardilis said:


> well i ment it as an example though an extra 0 on the end would male sense
> 
> 
> 
> STU'S DART ROOM'S small- £2000 / medium- £4000 / large- £6000 / xlarge- £7500


just to make sure there was no offence taken mate it was very flattering:2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

zekee said:


> Still deciding on what plants id like. so many. Think im going to need a book!


real real simplified for ya mate
Creeping ficus to cover your backgrounds,not pumilla unless you viv is big,go for the slow ones,all our ruddy plants grow like weeds anyway in viv.
Ferns in the darker areas,there feet need to be not too wet
broms like lots of light so go up top,good light will bring out the colours,again they will die with wet feet,you must keep the center well full of water.
Fittonia,nice colours an accent,often get leggy
mosses and liverworts look cool,but not on the floor
orchid expensive beautiful,not for you yet
Climbers like margavia,cissus are real cool cissus amazonica will grow all over the top of the viv,
So just a very simplified start and a few pointers mate,as i can see this being bewildering,something to get you started,find out what epiphyte means buddy,its impotant 
Stu


----------



## zekee

Epiphyte, air plants, can be stuck with glue to wood or viv backgrounds. Extract their nutrients from the air hence the name. dont like getting wet. You impressed? haha. Will look at some of those plants mate. Ta.


----------



## soundstounite

zekee said:


> Epiphyte, air plants, can be stuck with glue to wood or viv backgrounds. Extract their nutrients from the air hence the name. dont like getting wet. You impressed? haha. Will look at some of those plants mate. Ta.


yup:2thumb: very,they need that humidity that our dart vivs provide kiddo,see told ya you'll get there!!Its bewildering at first but with time,it slowly drops into place,,i reckon i'll still be learning about this stuff for ever mate,its part of what makes dartkeeping so cool to me,there are so many different discaplins to master
Stu


----------



## zekee

Yeah still confused on air plans are some people say yes some say no. Whats your opinion Stu?


----------



## soundstounite

zekee said:


> Yeah still confused on air plans are some people say yes some say no. Whats your opinion Stu?


no experiance mate,i owned one,its one of 2 plants,i think, that i haven't done well with,ie made into lots,so not a good person to ask,Morgan spikebrit will help more i guess,but Gill of JUST airplants has got to be the person with the most knowledge of these i would think,they have never really grabbed me buddy to be honest.
Gonna go off on one mate:mf_dribble:
Zekee when i started making little homes for darts to live in,my initial thoughts were do everything i can to make a challanging home in a glass box,what i mean by that is maximise 3 surfaces for climbing,plenty of hiding places,that sort of thing,now i try much harder to incorperate,those thoughts into a bit of actual,background,rainforest ie a slice..apile of rocks a tree stump that kind of thing,cirtain plants fit that better than others,i try to imagine where a frog would live,and make that,so i find pics of where the frog lives, and base the viv on an interpretation of that,air plants have never featured in those pics,that i have noticed , so i guess without thought i have never been drawn to them, broms can be crucial to some frogs,as they hold water which can be used for tads,so are a very different matter,airplants personally to me don't look right,but as always you mustn't be put off by that.
Something else that i've noticed in vivs with plants,i like green ones,2 colours, one sees in rainforest pics brown and green!! again a bit weird because i think that the broms and their colours are amazing,the reds pinks peach colours that occur in them is wow, but although i love plants,they are not the reason for my vivs: its about the frogs,and these frogs posses the most amazing colours,i like them to be the stars of the show,too much colour detracts from that for me.so i think about the shape/shade of the green leaves more now than all the blousey stuff when planting. Folks seen to think the vivs that shaz and i make together are ok,they say kind things too us,i wonder how many spot,1 how few different species we use and 2 how little colour is there,other than that damn green:2thumb:
Sorry that simple question,turned into a monster ramble,i would of said that last night but my head is not exploding now so its a bit easier to think,don't chuck every plant in a viv mate pick a few cool ones some that have function use them maybe more than once.Our biggest problem is our vivs are too damn small for the big stuff that a rainforest does so well,so we have to compromise,and all the time your making it think of the frog thats gonna live there,hopefully for years,possibly 20!!!!!
Stu


----------



## zekee

Yeah Im not too fussed on the air plants at all mate, might sound stupid, but they dont look real, if you get me? Very good point you make about the frogs being the stars. Especially with the amazing colours these guys have. You dont really want to take away from that. That post has been a great help mate. Simplify s things a whole lot for me. Can decide on a few plants and read up about them. No doubt I will start a new thread asking for people's opinions.Thank you! Oh fruit fly culture arrives tomorrow. eek!


----------



## soundstounite

zekee said:


> Yeah Im not too fussed on the air plants at all mate, might sound stupid, but they dont look real, if you get me? Very good point you make about the frogs being the stars. Especially with the amazing colours these guys have. You dont really want to take away from that. That post has been a great help mate. Simplify s things a whole lot for me. Can decide on a few plants and read up about them. No doubt I will start a new thread asking for people's opinions.Thank you! Oh fruit fly culture arrives tomorrow. eek!


yeah do mate get as many thoughts as you can on everything,then go with what you feel will work for you,the funny thing about this hobby is what works for one guy doesn't always work for the next,the parameters are so varied
FF bring it on:mf_dribble:,soon the house will smell like a brewery:whistling2:
good luck mate
Stu


----------



## justairplants

zekee said:


> Yeah still confused on air plans are some people say yes some say no. Whats your opinion Stu?


It depends on the species of airplant. There aren't that many Tillandsia that are suited to a high humidity habitat as they need to dry out fully inbetween watering. Of those that are, you really need to plant them off the ground and preferably pointing in a downward position so that the water flows away from the centre of the plant when you spray the viv.

The majority of commercially available Tillandsia (airplants) are naturally from a more arid habitat. We sell most of our Tillandsia for vivariums to people with arid vivariums Those from a high humidity environment generally tend to be stupidly expensive and resemble the more classical tank type Bromeliad than what you would normally think of when thinking airplant - so almost certainly best to go for a different, cheaper Brom in a planted viv. That being said, there are a few that you could use that aren't expensive and do look more like the classical airplants that you see in Garden Centres. 

I'm always more than happy to answer any questions on the suitability of specific airplant species if anyone wants to know more about using them in planted vivariums.

HTH
Gill
Just Airplants


----------



## soundstounite

And verily we shall call this section little people:mf_dribble:
our very first clutch of D. leuc








and the same guys on the way,might just get 3,not really expecting much,but ya never know








clock those little eys,bless
auratus eggs








and mystie








Some of the absolutly stunning young auratus that our trio are producing,note little mate is much more like the mum,as the parents are all quite different,its going to be intersting to see whats produced,i think we are starting to see dark ones through now but its a hard call to make as the colours change so much initially 
















here's ickle mate not so little now:2thumb:








and another just for fun, we have 15 ootw now,and legs appearing all over the place








here's little mystie ha doing that classic mystie crawl,he's starting to move around much more now,much smaller than the auratus kids,and i guess more delicate,note the spots green as opposed to white ,not quite sure about this but i know there is a slightly green tinged version of this species,said to be a different population,the camera i think is lying abit to but those spots are deffinately changing at morph from white,weird huh








tiny








more to follow of some yellow folks they are a right pr of hurbuts
Stu


----------



## fardilis

justairplants said:


> It depends on the species of airplant. There aren't that many Tillandsia that are suited to a high humidity habitat as they need to dry out fully inbetween watering. Of those that are, you really need to plant them off the ground and preferably pointing in a downward position so that the water flows away from the centre of the plant when you spray the viv.
> 
> The majority of commercially available Tillandsia (airplants) are naturally from a more arid habitat. We sell most of our Tillandsia for vivariums to people with arid vivariums Those from a high humidity environment generally tend to be stupidly expensive and resemble the more classical tank type Bromeliad than what you would normally think of when thinking airplant - so almost certainly best to go for a different, cheaper Brom in a planted viv. That being said, there are a few that you could use that aren't expensive and do look more like the classical airplants that you see in Garden Centres.
> 
> I'm always more than happy to answer any questions on the suitability of specific airplant species if anyone wants to know more about using them in planted vivariums.
> 
> HTH
> Gill
> Just Airplants


hi gill
would you consider bromelaids airplants?
it's just that alot of peole say they aren't but i'd of thought they are.




soundstounite said:


> And verily we shall call this section little people:mf_dribble:
> our very first clutch of D. leuc
> image
> and the same guys on the way,might just get 3,not really expecting much,but ya never know
> image
> clock those little eys,bless
> auratus eggs
> image
> and mystie
> image
> Some of the absolutly stunning young auratus that our trio are producing,note little mate is much more like the mum,as the parents are all quite different,its going to be intersting to see whats produced,i think we are starting to see dark ones through now but its a hard call to make as the colours change so much initially
> image
> image
> here's ickle mate not so little now:2thumb:
> image
> and another just for fun, we have 15 ootw now,and legs appearing all over the place
> image
> here's little mystie ha doing that classic mystie crawl,he's starting to move around much more now,much smaller than the auratus kids,and i guess more delicate,note the spots green as opposed to white ,not quite sure about this but i know there is a slightly green tinged version of this species,said to be a different population,the camera i think is lying abit to but those spots are deffinately changing at morph from white,weird huh
> image
> tiny
> image
> more to follow of some yellow folks they are a right pr of hurbuts
> Stu


looking good stu, i hope you can post pics of them developing on here.


----------



## soundstounite

rdillis, I presume you mean the leucs?
Our citronella,are getting silly tame now talk to them they come to you,open the door they well they would sit on your face i guess if given a chane ...fortunately a camera was in the way,as their favourite game is chuck the leaf in the ditch at the front of the viv,we have tried to fox them with a new bit of wood,this led to much merryment investigation and some pics:mf_dribble:
















































"oh look dad,now we've chucked all the leaves in the ditch ya get woodlice in there"
B:censor:RDS









ya gotta love em though
Stu


----------



## zekee

Great colours Stu.


----------



## justairplants

fardilis said:


> hi gill
> would you consider bromelaids airplants?
> it's just that alot of peole say they aren't but i'd of thought they are.


Depends on the genre of Bromeliad. Most that you would use in a tropical planted viv are airplants with the exception of Cryptanthus which is terrestial (ie. grows in soil). 

HTH
Gill
Just Airplants


----------



## Ron Magpie

fardilis said:


> hi gill
> *would you consider bromelaids airplants?*
> *it's just that alot of peole say they aren't but i'd of thought they are.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> looking good stu, i hope you can post pics of them developing on here.


 It's more the other way round, mate- air plants are a kind of bromeliad. : victory:


----------



## justairplants

Ron Magpie said:


> It's more the other way round, mate- air plants are a kind of bromeliad. : victory:


Almost right :whistling2:

An airplant is any plant that grows without soil either epiphytically (on a host plant - usually trees but can be other things like cacti) or saxicolously (on rocks). The general term airplant can be applied to a lot of orchids, ferns, mosses, peperomia and Bromeliads to mention a few. Airplant has become the common name for the genre Tillandsia which is a Bromeliad. A lot of other Bromeliads are also airplants although haven't got lumbered with the common name.

Hope this makes it all a bit clearer : victory:

Gill
Just Airplants


----------



## Ron Magpie

justairplants said:


> Almost right :whistling2:
> 
> An airplant is any plant that grows without soil either epiphytically (on a host plant - usually trees but can be other things like cacti) or saxicolously (on rocks). The general term airplant can be applied to a lot of orchids, ferns, mosses, peperomia and Bromeliads to mention a few. Airplant has become the common name for the genre Tillandsia which is a Bromeliad. A lot of other Bromeliads are also airplants although haven't got lumbered with the common name.
> 
> Hope this makes it all a bit clearer : victory:
> 
> Gill
> Just Airplants


Hmm, I've only ever found Tillandsia refered to as 'air plants' in any literature I've come across- the only encompassing term for all the groups you mention would be epiphyte. Although I'll give you saxicole.: victory:


----------



## justairplants

Ron Magpie said:


> Hmm, I've only ever found Tillandsia refered to as 'air plants' in any literature I've come across- the only encompassing term for all the groups you mention would be epiphyte. Although I'll give you saxicole.: victory:


epiphyte = airplant - ie. grows in the air rather than in soil.

Although I'll concede that the majority only think of Tillandsia as airplants....spend my summers explaining that other Bromeliads are also airplants :lol2:
Gill


----------



## Ron Magpie

justairplants said:


> *epiphyte = airplant - ie. grows in the air rather than in soil.
> *
> Although I'll concede that the majority only think of Tillandsia as airplants....spend my summers explaining that other Bromeliads are also airplants :lol2:
> Gill


Well, no, the literal translation is 'living on plants'- which is why I conceded caricole, for the the ones that live on rocks. As I understand it, the term 'air plant' was originally used because they literally 'live on air' rather than obtaining their nutrition in the normal way.


----------



## justairplants

Ron Magpie said:


> Well, no, the literal translation is 'living on plants'- which is why I conceded caricole, for the the ones that live on rocks. As I understand it, the term 'air plant' was originally used because they literally 'live on air' rather than obtaining their nutrition in the normal way.


They live "in air" not "on air" .....they take their water and nutrition through their leaves - this whole idea that they live "on air" causes more Tillandsia to be killed in the home than pretty much anything else, as it leads to the assumption that they take all of their water from humidity in the atmosphere (even in a dry, centrally heated house :gasp - in nature they get rained on or water from mist, dew, fog or low cloud depending on where they are native to. Nutrition comes from debris falling on the leaves and then getting assimulated into the plant from the water. Some of them get their nutrition from the waste products from ants having formed a symbiotic relationship with certain species. 

In the nursery we grow the majority of our other Broms epiphytically (as airplants) and only pot up the show plants for the winter in bark to keep them upright and stop them losing water from the centres. The "Mother Plants" are also potted in the same way and for the same reason.

To the OP
Sorry for this slight hijack of your thread - I've been following your progress with the build and loved every minute :2thumb:

Gill
Just Airplants


----------



## Ron Magpie

justairplants said:


> *They live "in air" not "on air" .....they take their water and nutrition through their leaves - this whole idea that they live "on air" causes more Tillandsia to be killed in the home than pretty much anything else, as it leads to the assumption that they take all of their water from humidity in the atmosphere (even in a dry, centrally heated house :gasp - in nature they get rained on or water from mist, dew, fog or low cloud depending on where they are native to. Nutrition comes from debris falling on the leaves and then getting assimulated into the plant from the water. Some of them get their nutrition from the waste products from ants having formed a symbiotic relationship with certain species.
> 
> In the nursery we grow the majority of our other Broms epiphytically (as airplants) and only pot up the show plants for the winter in bark to keep them upright and stop them losing water from the centres. The "Mother Plants" are also potted in the same way and for the same reason.*
> To the OP
> Sorry for this slight hijack of your thread - I've been following your progress with the build and loved every minute :2thumb:
> 
> Gill
> Just Airplants


Ditto on the sorry, Stu- but I expect you're loving it, anyway!:lol2: Gill, of course I agree with you about the plants _actual_ needs, but that was the impression people had, hence the common name. In any case, they are amazing, especially the ones you supply :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Ditto on the sorry, Stu- but I expect you're loving it, anyway!:lol2: Gill, of course I agree with you about the plants _actual_ needs, but that was the impression people had, hence the common name. In any case, they are amazing, especially the ones you supply :2thumb:


Gill Ron,no worries thanks for the kind words Gill.Look me trying to help Zeeke,has lead to a cool debate,where we've all learned,ha and no one is pulling anyone's head off either,so yeah keep going guys
Stu


----------



## justairplants

soundstounite said:


> Gill Ron,no worries thanks for the kind words Gill.Look me trying to help Zeeke,has lead to a cool debate,where we've all learned,ha and no one is pulling anyone's head off either,so yeah keep going guys
> Stu


Maybe its time to suggest a "Group Hug":grouphug:
:lol2:


----------



## Ron Magpie

justairplants said:


> Maybe its time to suggest a "Group Hug":grouphug:
> :lol2:


Up for that!:lol2:


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

Hey Stu,

Haven't really been posting much recently but still been looking at the thread. I thought mysties took longer to morphs. The whole room and all your frogs are looking great, nice work!!!


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Up for that!:lol2:


:2thumb:made i smile!!,hmm but i've put the kiss of death on the learn about airplants,with Gill,oh well.:2thumb::lol2: So i'll get that back on track,Gill how does one combat scale insect in a frog safe manner,I saw a post on denw awhile back and thought about asking this one,but with all whats going on forgot,but seen as your here:whistling2:
I think its cool that the occassion pro turns up we had John from arcadia a while back,now Gill with her plant expertise,tis good !!
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> :2thumb:made i smile!!,hmm but i've put the kiss of death on the learn about airplants,with Gill,oh well.:2thumb::lol2: So i'll get that back on track,Gill how does one combat scale insect in a frog safe manner,I saw a post on denw awhile back and thought about asking this one,but with all whats going on forgot,but seen as your here:whistling2:
> I think its cool that the occassion pro turns up we had John from arcadia a while back,now Gill with her plant expertise,tis good !!
> Stu


Defenders sell a parasitic wasp for scale insect control for greenhouse gardeners: Defenders - Safe Effective Natural Biologist Pest Control for Gardeners


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Hey Stu,
> 
> Haven't really been posting much recently but still been looking at the thread. I thought mysties took longer to morphs. The whole room and all your frogs are looking great, nice work!!!


hey Matty,first cheers mate.
Yeah me too Matty,i'm not quite sure why ours are comming out around 4 months i think,Marc told me 10-12 months,i have to say i've heard many variables on this one,and mate to loose those 2 little guys,boshed shaz and i right royally,i could still close my eyes and see them as tads,they were here in the gizmo so long,when the legs came good,i really thought(very quietly) we are going to win this now,still not sure quite why we lost them though, but we have made some tiny adjustments,in an effort to do better .Anyway more coming,the little one that morphed a few days ago goes up the top of the tub catching compo gnats i think,and the first is going along ok,well i think so,saw it feeding today: victory: Our water temperature is not high,probably on the cool side, so really not sure about the answer to why they are morphing in this time frame mate,live grub,who knows? My mate in Holland told me 4 mths,so its not unheard of. Oh and they are pretty tiny as hatchlings,we are feeding the hell out of them now just before morph out,hoping this might get them through.Hope your good buddy
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Defenders sell a parasitic wasp for scale insect control for greenhouse gardeners: Defenders - Safe Effective Natural Biologist Pest Control for Gardeners


:notworthy: SHHHh you,your not allowed to be this clever:lol2:,could one use those in viv Ron,ha bet the ruddy frogs would think its a new snack:2thumb:,i'd be surprised if they were any actual danger to the frogs though,although i guess most frog keepers would pull the frogs,to make treatment more effective,i wonder if the wasps would cope with the humidity? 
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> :notworthy: SHHHh you,your not allowed to be this clever:lol2:,could one use those in viv Ron,ha bet the ruddy frogs would think its a new snack:2thumb:,i'd be surprised if they were any actual danger to the frogs though,although i guess most frog keepers would pull the frogs,to make treatment more effective,i wonder if the wasps would cope with the humidity?
> Stu


Yep, they'd probably make good froggie snacks!:lol2: The impression I get from the blurb is that warm humid conditions should suit them just fine, though. I've never used these, but the vine weevil control Defenders flog is *very* effective.


----------



## justairplants

Ron Magpie said:


> Yep, they'd probably make good froggie snacks!:lol2: The impression I get from the blurb is that warm humid conditions should suit them just fine, though. I've never used these, but the vine weevil control Defenders flog is *very* effective.


Can't comment on their snackability, but they would certainly cope with the temps and humidity - got some friends who use them at their Mandevilla nursery. Not tried them myself yet but hear they are very effective.
Gill
Just Airplants


----------



## soundstounite

justairplants said:


> Can't comment on their snackability, but they would certainly cope with the temps and humidity - got some friends who use them at their Mandevilla nursery. Not tried them myself yet but hear they are very effective.
> Gill
> Just Airplants


Cheers guys,been also doing some homework on nemaslug ,these might be applicable to snail problems in viv,too busy chasing my own tail at the moment to have got there ,and i might have missed the window but,i'm sure these natural controls have a place for in viv pests,thanka kindly
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

First luec egg hatched......yyyeeeehhhhaaaaa,and er another clutch found :mf_dribble:.so one out with a possible 3 from the very first clutch,i'll take that,what is really nice is that these were our first frogs, thank you to Paul H. for the cracking stock and for keeping them till we could meet up,
bring it on
Stu


----------



## justairplants

soundstounite said:


> Cheers guys,been also doing some homework on nemaslug ,these might be applicable to snail problems in viv,too busy chasing my own tail at the moment to have got there ,and i might have missed the window but,i'm sure these natural controls have a place for in viv pests,thanka kindly
> Stu


There is also a product called Slug Gone, which is made from sheep wool....apparently slugs hate walking on it...the stuff eventually breaks down to a natural fertiliser along with adding fibre to your substrate...

Gill


----------



## soundstounite

justairplants said:


> There is also a product called Slug Gone, which is made from sheep wool....apparently slugs hate walking on it...the stuff eventually breaks down to a natural fertiliser along with adding fibre to your substrate...
> 
> Gill


cheers Gill i'd be slightly warey because of the lanolin. I am aware of it though,blummin gardeners eh.
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ahh little summersi called yesterday,first time i've heard it,and today there was a bit of courting,and a bit of joint film can investigation.These 2 remind me of little marmosets,ya know that wired sort of jerky fast movement almost robotic,she was following him stroking but because of the way they move it looked more like she was slapping him .They are not shy frogs at all really just so damn small its a job to spot them,and they have the ability to just disappear,almost instantly.I'm real chuffed this is happening,whether or not it goes further it shows they've settled in here and we are doing ok for them stoked
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Today our tincs mt Attachibakka laid their first clutch:mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble:, just found,not really sure why i went looking,but was definitely drawn to that tank,so off we go again,and there's me thinking time to slow up now winter coming,but as a mate of mine pointed out to me very recently maybe thats exactly the trigger,a bit cooler of late, 
Stu


----------



## zekee

Congrats mate.


----------



## Sandsifter

soundstounite said:


> Today our tincs mt Attachibakka laid their first clutch:mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble:, just found,not really sure why i went looking,but was definitely drawn to that tank,so off we go again,and there's me thinking time to slow up now winter coming,but as a mate of mine pointed out to me very recently maybe thats exactly the trigger,a bit cooler of late,
> Stu


Hi Stu,

Your room temp varies over the year then?

Chris


----------



## soundstounite

Zeeke thanks mate.
Chris,no not really that much,maybe night time temps are dropping slightly,i'm using the oil rad as room heat,and the thermostat is not very presise,that said summer nights were hovering around 70F now just below. The outside wall on this old house is definitely colder,may be they can sense that.Chris possibly before you came here,i talked at some length to a guy called Ian,igmillichip (i hope) he's a sceintist,and works with darts,one of the things he is exploring is how the angle of the sun,might affect dart breeding cycles,after talking to him,i no longer shut the blind on our dart room window,this might be a potential trigger or of course the hole thing might be pure coincidence, But here are some facts,i would say in the last 3 weeks i have heard young citrons calling,young panama calling, both first time, summersi first time i've heard it here leucs have laid there first clutch and now our adult Attachis have kicked in, they can sense something,me thinks,if not then a big coincidence,the only frogs not actually doing anything are the machetos which are too young of course,and drying the auratus/mysties off a bit,coupled with feeding less has slowed but not stopped them either.
My reading leads one to the conclusion that one the biggest stimuli for a dart to breed is body weight,especially on the females,but there must be other factors at play.
Chris,digressing, as a stockman, this is starting to get to the real, interesting "skills to learn",i think mastering the stopping of these frogs breeding might be one of the most difficult challenges we face in a captive environment, where it is easy to have them on the heavy side and more difficult,to replcate natures challanges that would keep them that bit leaner and possibly not allow these extended breeding seasons. Sure we have all these husbandry skills to learn to place our frogs in that position to breed,and it looks like some natural trigger is happening here,beyond my real comprehension, but i think that being able to stop them,without actually splitting them up might just be the hardest won skill of all, and is the one i would most like under my belt as we speak despite the elation of the past few weeks.
Stu


----------



## Sandsifter

Stu, 

70f? I am busy panicking and looking for solutions because my test vivs are only just hitting 70/75 after a lazy day at home with the central heating on longer than usual. Usual temps are high 60's, hitting 70 plus in the evenings.

Meanwhile, your worrying about how to get a black belt in slowing egg production down.

"Sugar"


Chris


----------



## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> Stu,
> 
> 70f? I am busy panicking and looking for solutions because my test vivs are only just hitting 70/75 after a lazy day at home with the central heating on longer than usual. Usual temps are high 60's, hitting 70 plus in the evenings.
> 
> Meanwhile, your worrying about how to get a black belt in slowing egg production down.
> 
> "Sugar"
> 
> 
> Chris


I know mate it seems a bit off in away but,i think very important,to stop them for a while.
How well is your house insulated Chris,you might need back up when it gets cold,its still very mild yet.
Options: insulate the room,insulate the vivs:thin polystyrene around them, oil rad,recycle the heat from lights via fans.Keep species that prefer it a bit cooler:2thumb: yeah i do mean darts,there are some.
Chris what is the lowest night temp your seeing? i know of friends in the states who have not had issues at 65,but i think you do need it a bit warmer,and will need something in the depths of winter. but look at this way mate its a damn site easier to warm a viv up a bit and its not much for you,than to cool it down.Much quoted is these frogs need room temps around 20C and a bit less at night as a yard stick
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

I have a small radiator thing I use for nights.


----------



## Sandsifter

soundstounite said:


> I know mate it seems a bit off in away but,i think very important,to stop them for a while.
> How well is your house insulated Chris,you might need back up when it gets cold,its still very mild yet.
> Options: insulate the room,insulate the vivs:thin polystyrene around them, oil rad,recycle the heat from lights via fans.Keep species that prefer it a bit cooler:2thumb: yeah i do mean darts,there are some.
> Chris what is the lowest night temp your seeing? i know of friends in the states who have not had issues at 65,but i think you do need it a bit warmer,and will need something in the depths of winter. but look at this way mate its a damn site easier to warm a viv up a bit and its not much for you,than to cool it down.Much quoted is these frogs need room temps around 20C and a bit less at night as a yard stick
> Stu


Lowest i've seen is 62f. Room is currently 76f. Not sure i've ever looked at or thought about the house temp much before.. This is very different from just setting a heater-stat to whatever temp then forgetting about.. Fieldwork observations today suggest the temp problems may occur in those brief moments the teenager/xbox symbiosis is disturbed in any way :whistling2:

That aside, Im fast coming to the conclusion that the best heating method would actually be yet more viv's :devil: :lol2:

A backup like a small rad sounds sensible though. Ta Paul.

Is the laying generally seasonal in the wild stu?


----------



## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> Lowest i've seen is 62f. Room is currently 76f. Not sure i've ever looked at or thought about the house temp much before.. This is very different from just setting a heater-stat to whatever temp then forgetting about.. Fieldwork observations today suggest the temp problems may occur in those brief moments the teenager/xbox symbiosis is disturbed in any way :whistling2:
> 
> That aside, Im fast coming to the conclusion that the best heating method would actually be yet more viv's :devil: :lol2:
> 
> A backup like a small rad sounds sensible though. Ta Paul.
> 
> Is the laying generally seasonal in the wild stu?


see how he did that,i quote oil rad,and he gets the kudos,LMFAO:lol2: Chris your absolutly right more vivs is the answer:mf_dribble:,but not at night of course,but i'm going to have to agree,how could i not!!
Now the breeding question i can't fully answer Chris,i know that some species experiance a dry season, and where some of the tincs occur they actually have a small wet season then it drys abit then gets much wetter,but i think its to general to answer fully.some areas where leucs occur the months of jan feb are so dry they actually estivate,so there are going to be seasons when they don't breed for sure,but my knowledge is not great enough,to go much further. i just can't see turning out a clutch week in week out,is a good thing for the frogs at all,but getting them close to stopping by really drying things up and feeding very very little ,is obviously going to take a degree of expertise,and some damn careful watching,i'm sumising thats not enough is made of this but i'm not experianced enough to know this for fact yet, i have to say i have never heard of a single case of a dartkeeper putting his leucs into eastivation, 

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

:lol2:Well i was told on sunday that i'm too soft to keep darts,the guy was right of course so i'm giving up,i don't think we could do this without hand feeding our tads as they have become so dependent on us laying out the silverware pre feed :Na_Na_Na_Na: i'm joking of course.
But at least i don't need to stand on any pomp and ceremony about being an old softy anymore, which actually i'm not really,the point of this nonsense is to work as close as possible with the frogs from a young age and hopefully the result will be some young frogs that will not be quite as shy as they might have been with out this human contact there is also the fact that we just find it so much fun,ahh well back to being soft eh?
On the subject of grown men going ahh bless:whistling2: how about these












































Nice huh?
Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

I knew you Would get there in the end!!!!!

John


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> I knew you Would get there in the end!!!!!
> 
> John


Hey mate,
I think we're good with them now John,just needed a tiny tweak to the rearing method,i'm still smarting from loosing a couple and not being adept enough to have it wired without experiance,i guess some things one has to learn the HARD way,all the prep in the world is not enough,one has to do it and make the mistake !!!!!!!when it costs a frog its life i haul myself over the coals bigstyle,but one can't really justify that.I set high standards for us and livestock because they deserve just that,high standards!!!! 
best
Stu


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

Stu, these are looking awesome. I think I am going to be lucky enough to be able to get me some mysties. Just got to move house and then will plant up a tank in Jan. I dont suppose you have got an updated pic of your mysties tank?

I'm probably going to be asking you plus of questions nearer the time as well. Seeing as you have done so well with your guys!!!: victory:

We finally got some good pics of our el cope on Sunday cause one was out:gasp: there is pics in the Amphibians pics section!


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> :lol2:*Well i was told on sunday that i'm too soft to keep darts*,the guy was right of course so i'm giving up,i don't think we could do this without hand feeding our tads as they have become so dependent on us laying out the silverware pre feed :Na_Na_Na_Na: i'm joking of course.
> But at least i don't need to stand on any pomp and ceremony about being an old softy anymore, which actually i'm not really,the point of this nonsense is to work as close as possible with the frogs from a young age and hopefully the result will be some young frogs that will not be quite as shy as they might have been with out this human contact there is also the fact that we just find it so much fun,ahh well back to being soft eh?
> On the subject of grown men going ahh bless:whistling2: how about these
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> Nice huh?
> Stu


Who told you that Stu let me at them ill sort them for you, hang on it was me wasnt it :blush:

Loving the pics buddy you done good, posh frogs born with a silver spoon :2thumb:
was also good to catch up yesterday, well i thought so anyway :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Richie


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Who told you that Stu let me at them ill sort them for you, hang on it was me wasnt it :blush:
> 
> Loving the pics buddy you done good, posh frogs born with a silver spoon :2thumb:
> was also good to catch up yesterday, well i thought so anyway :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> Richie


Richie i totally understood how it was meant and all in jest (although i'm totally happy with being soft) and funny enough to me that i thought i might get a smile from ya here:2thumb: buddy the only bad thing about catching up yesterday,is that you had to keep running off and both us old f*rts,couldn't hear each other:lol2::whistling2:
Mate i love having a crack with me OLDERS:blush: and betters wish it was for longer thanks for the words about the pics Rich high praise from you dude,like there would ever be anything posh from here but i genuinely do appreciate the sentiments:notworthy:
thanks for the crack mate!!:lol2:
best
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Stu, these are looking awesome. I think I am going to be lucky enough to be able to get me some mysties. Just got to move house and then will plant up a tank in Jan. I dont suppose you have got an updated pic of your mysties tank?
> 
> I'm probably going to be asking you plus of questions nearer the time as well. Seeing as you have done so well with your guys!!!: victory:
> 
> We finally got some good pics of our el cope on Sunday cause one was out:gasp: there is pics in the Amphibians pics section!


wish ya all the luck with them Matty they are just so cool and the privaledge of these kids is something special,if there is anything i can help ya with it would be a pleasure mate,i've got to get some pics up of the last viv so will sort a mystie update soon as i get there mate.
Oh mate you'll like this: we have not whitnessed a mystie jump more than a couple of inches or thereabouts,Shaz sprays the vivs in the mornings,aero was sat on the bit of wood in the center of the tank,so about a foot in,and she says totally focused on one thing.she pops the sprayer in to do the other side Aero takes one bounce to the sprayer,and second bounce outa the tankover her shoulder,Shaz throws sprayer away and grabbs froggy and chucks him back in the tank and starts swearing at Aero,i wish we could have both seen this:mf_dribble::lol2:
Auratus are damn shy at times but as you might have guessed from above we are working on it,but such cool frogs desparately underated,the colours comming fom our SB's are mad Matty,reminds me of Richies rainbow pum viv,as i've coined it:blush:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Oh crap,Matty i'll get that pic up for you soon,having a massive memory crisis at present,(Gill SSHHHHHH :lol2,forgetting pretty much everything,so same as usual really.
Here's some pics of the last made viv planted up,ha plenty of time for this to grow in can't wait for those quercifolia to get going and cover the right side,it will be interesting to see whether i have got the depth and free draining subs,right for the verisa at the front,if not it will rot for sure
LHS








RHS








and FTS








Might chuck a few gametophytes about but thats about it methinks
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

This is the last auratus viv just after planting,i thought this would take a good time to grow in,its doing nicely so i thought a few pics would be cool
so just planted








here's the tank now,it was planted right at the beginning of september








rhs








fts of note is the fern on the right at the back,i'm kicking my self because i was sure it would rot under viv conditions,it loves it,i could have been propergating that one its a gorgeous plant








So thats the auratus viv,not totally sure of which morph i'm hoping that some might come from a friend in holland whom has some stunning morphs
seeya
Stu


----------



## zekee

Looking good mate, as always.


----------



## Morgan Freeman

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Stu, these are looking awesome. I think I am going to be lucky enough to be able to get me some mysties. Just got to move house and then will plant up a tank in Jan. I dont suppose you have got an updated pic of your mysties tank?
> 
> I'm probably going to be asking you plus of questions nearer the time as well. Seeing as you have done so well with your guys!!!: victory:
> 
> We finally got some good pics of our el cope on Sunday cause one was out:gasp: there is pics in the Amphibians pics section!


I can hold on to one of my tanks until Jan if you like. Save you a few quid and I'm only 30 mins away.


----------



## Morgan Freeman

IMO your best viv so far Stu.


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

One word Stu- STUNNING!!! I wish I could make vivs like this. The rock work is just brilliant. Can I employ you to redo my fantastica tank please?!?:lol2:


----------



## manda88

Morgan Freeman said:


> I can hold on to one of my tanks until Jan if you like. Save you a few quid and I'm only 30 mins away.


I love you :flrt:


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> IMO your best viv so far Stu.


the auratus one Paul? or the other ? curious i am
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

zekee said:


> Looking good mate, as always.


cheers kind sir
Stu


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

Morgan Freeman said:


> I can hold on to one of my tanks until Jan if you like. Save you a few quid and I'm only 30 mins away.


Sounds brilliant Morgan, how much would you like for one?:2thumb:


----------



## Morgan Freeman

soundstounite said:


> the auratus one Paul? or the other ? curious i am
> Stu


Auratus. I love it.

Matt. 3 billion pound. They won't have any plants in btw.


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> One word Stu- STUNNING!!! I wish I could make vivs like this. The rock work is just brilliant. Can I employ you to redo my fantastica tank please?!?:lol2:


I'm not cheep:lol2:,but of course,Matty sorry for not popping up those pics,i'll get em sorted soon ish.But honestly mat you can do these rocks they are a fiddle is all,i just wish i could paint the suface,i'm damn close with them but if i could,find away to get a brush too them then i reckon know one would know they are a blagg.
Thanks matee kind words,i take along time thinking about them too long ,but once i've got that picture in my head of what i think the frogs will like i'm away,tis getting that picture and working it into such a small glass box, thats the hard bit !! 
Stu


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

Morgan Freeman said:


> Auratus. I love it.
> 
> Matt. 3 billion pound. They won't have any plants in btw.


Nah I know that, they are all going into your new tank. Do they have any bits of wood on the background?

3 billion pounds is a little more than I can afford right now. How about half a peice of chewing gum, a broken pencil and a twix?


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

soundstounite said:


> I'm not cheep:lol2:,but of course,Matty sorry for not popping up those pics,i'll get em sorted soon ish.But honestly mat you can do these rocks they are a fiddle is all,i just wish i could paint the suface,i'm damn close with them but if i could,find away to get a brush too them then i reckon know one would know they are a blagg.
> Thanks matee kind words,i take along time thinking about them too long ,but once i've got that picture in my head of what i think the frogs will like i'm away,tis getting that picture and working it into such a small glass box, thats the hard bit !!
> Stu


Sorry stu was taking your thread off topic then!

Those rocks look soooo real I was just saying to manda if I didn't already know I would think they were real. 

I know what you mean and you do it very well. I am most pleased with my auratus tank and that's still growing in!! 

No worries bout the pictures don't rush, know your very busy.

Hope both you and shaz are good?


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> Auratus. I love it.
> 
> Matt. 3 billion pound. They won't have any plants in btw.


thanks dude,i'm drawn to it too,i think because its so damn simple and so few genii of plants used,ferns and ficus moss and liverwort, erm excuse me but thats almost double what i was going to charge Matty for the rocks:mf_dribble:,oh and mat i'll throw in a viv for that:lol2: and the plants,and a rack:whistling2: and some cute mysties:Na_Na_Na_Na:
Sorry Paul:blush:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Nah I know that, they are all going into your new tank. Do they have any bits of wood on the background?
> 
> 3 billion pounds is a little more than I can afford right now. How about half a peice of chewing gum, a broken pencil and a twix?


Morgan Freeman replies:" DONE,Matty ya got yaself a deal"
Mr Freeman


----------



## Morgan Freeman

soundstounite said:


> thanks dude,i'm drawn to it too,i think because its so damn simple and so few genii of plants used,ferns and ficus moss and liverwort, erm excuse me but thats almost double what i was going to charge Matty for the rocks:mf_dribble:,oh and mat i'll throw in a viv for that:lol2: and the plants,and a rack:whistling2: and some cute mysties:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> Sorry Paul:blush:
> Stu


Yep, some rocks and a few choice plants looks really good.


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

Morgan Freeman said:


> Yep, some rocks and a few choice plants looks really good.


Well I will be planting this up with no brows I think, all my other tanks have broms. It seemsi am going to have to get this tank and another from Richie so I can plant that up as well. Mysties and some azuereus me thinks!!


----------



## justairplants

soundstounite said:


> Oh crap,Matty i'll get that pic up for you soon,having a massive memory crisis at present,(Gill SSHHHHHH :lol2
> Stu


Forgotten already.....what am I supposed to shhhhhh about? :lol2:

Gill


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> This is the last auratus viv just after planting,i thought this would take a good time to grow in,its doing nicely so i thought a few pics would be cool
> so just planted
> image
> here's the tank now,it was planted right at the beginning of september
> image
> rhs
> image
> fts of note is the fern on the right at the back,i'm kicking my self because i was sure it would rot under viv conditions,it loves it,i could have been propergating that one its a gorgeous plant
> image
> So thats the auratus viv,not totally sure of which morph i'm hoping that some might come from a friend in holland whom has some stunning morphs
> seeya
> Stu


 That's stunning.


----------



## soundstounite

justairplants said:


> Forgotten already.....what am I supposed to shhhhhh about? :lol2:
> 
> Gill


Erm have we spoken before:whistling2:
this will make me smile for a long time thanks Gill, and no i still can't remember:blush:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> That's stunning.


Thanks Ron tell me mate did you see the newest viv? I'm just curious,these pages move so fast,i'm trying to guage why some of us,me included are drawn to that auratus tank,of course as i made them all i don't have any axes to grind just the above, curiosity, i'm sure its the simplicity of it but don't let that sway your reply, tell me straight dude:lol2:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Matty no worries about it going off topic,funny is it not that broms seem so synonymous with a dart tank. but where they are used by the frogs as phytotelmata,they present real difficulties for a dart keeper that needs to remove said tads. I saw some pics awhile back of where the cematary basti morph actually inhabit,what i and others instantly noticed was the fact that there were no broms for deposition sites,at this location. I wonder in the future if we as a hobby will move away from broms in alot of cases.The last tank we have put together has 2 very large broms in it in the hope that they will be used as breeding sites but i'm really starting to wonder what the other options are, other than the ubiquitus (sp please) film can.
Stu


----------



## justairplants

soundstounite said:


> I wonder in the future if we as a hobby will move away from broms in alot of cases.
> Stu


I hope not :gasp::gasp::gasp:
Gill
Just Airplants


----------



## soundstounite

justairplants said:


> I hope not :gasp::gasp::gasp:
> Gill
> Just Airplants


Theorising Gill,does NOT mean it will happen,and having met you and seen your plants (this is the first time i have shelled out in one hell of a time,yours are very very good mate :2thumb I'd be very surprised if dart keepers did actually stop using broms,my reason for stating the above,is practical relating to the difficulties encountered in removing tads,monitoring the amount of water in a vase even monitoring the stage that the tad is at,all these are practical considerations for a dart guy,and i guess thats the bit i focus on,well having seen all that i do on this thread you already know that the practical side of keeping a dart frog is where my head is at. I don't honestly think that you have anything to worry about Gill,people will always go for the best plants,your rep preceeded you to when i actually saw what you do,and as you know i grow stuff i have done for a damn long time and made my living with plants for a while, feed my family with what i grow bla bla
You ain't got any worries with what i saw sunday mate not a chance:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Gotta say Stu, I think you are talking out of your bottom there.  We use broms as often the deposition sites used in the wild really don't scale down to viv use at all well. The same discussion you nabbed the word phytotelmata from demonstrates this beautifully, with them discussing the difficulty of getting a large enough phytotelmata whilst retaining the same or similar species to that used in the wild but in a smaller varieity, as in the smaller versions of the plants used in the wild are useless as deposition sites. THIS is why we use broms, and why they have been used in this way for such a long time in this hobby, for pumilios especially. They are most certainly a better looking alternative to pieces of car tyre, rusty cans and other litter often used as alternative sites by wild pums, and are a lot easier on the eye than 35mm film pots (which most people hid in amongst the broms anyway). A perfect example are your mysties, which in the wild utilise HUGE aechema with flower spikes over a meter tall, you couldn't possibly fit them in even a large viv.

Most of the species where we need to pull eggs or tadpoles will happily use an artificial site though, even with broms present. My FG vents (or Amazonica if you must) been a perfect example of this. Their viv is full of broad leaved climbers and broms, yet every single time they use the same 2 black 35mm film pots sat right at the front of the viv on the ground. There really is no reason to abandon the use of broms (which often ARE present in those environments you mention, but are just not in the frame of the shot or are out of focus), not unless you really want to start keeping your frogs in greenhouses rather than vivs so that you can provide them with true biotopes. 

Oh and by the by, 2 broms is probably not really enough if you want to avoid competition for deposition sites, especially if this is your planned 'mixed basti group' viv.

A better answer to the problem you perceive may in fact be to move away from the fashion of planting said broms into permanent fixed backgrounds, and to instead build structures of wood and bark where we can remove pieces complete with brom to make removal of the tadpole easier. Or just plant em where you can reach them with a teaspoon. 

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Gotta say Stu, I think you are talking out of your bottom there.  We use broms as often the deposition sites used in the wild really don't scale down to viv use at all well. The same discussion you nabbed the word phytotelmata from demonstrates this beautifully, with them discussing the difficulty of getting a large enough phytotelmata whilst retaining the same or similar species to that used in the wild but in a smaller varieity, as in the smaller versions of the plants used in the wild are useless as deposition sites. THIS is why we use broms, and why they have been used in this way for such a long time in this hobby, for pumilios especially. They are most certainly a better looking alternative to pieces of car tyre, rusty cans and other litter often used as alternative sites by wild pums, and are a lot easier on the eye than 35mm film pots (which most people hid in amongst the broms anyway). A perfect example are your mysties, which in the wild utilise HUGE aechema with flower spikes over a meter tall, you couldn't possibly fit them in even a large viv.
> 
> Most of the species where we need to pull eggs or tadpoles will happily use an artificial site though, even with broms present. My FG vents (or Amazonica if you must) been a perfect example of this. Their viv is full of broad leaved climbers and broms, yet every single time they use the same 2 black 35mm film pots sat right at the front of the viv on the ground. There really is no reason to abandon the use of broms (which often ARE present in those environments you mention, but are just not in the frame of the shot or are out of focus), not unless you really want to start keeping your frogs in greenhouses rather than vivs so that you can provide them with true biotopes.
> 
> Oh and by the by, 2 broms is probably not really enough if you want to avoid competition for deposition sites, especially if this is your planned 'mixed basti group' viv.
> 
> A better answer to the problem you perceive may in fact be to move away from the fashion of planting said broms into permanent fixed backgrounds, and to instead build structures of wood and bark where we can remove pieces complete with brom to make removal of the tadpole easier. Or just plant em where you can reach them with a teaspoon.
> 
> Ade


:lol2: Yeah maybe Ade maybe not,one never knows which way a hobby like this will go, i like the idea of removable broms that is i guess for non oophaga,unless the artificial rearing of oophaga takes a big step.
The pum viv has 6 broms i think at the last count Ade,this ones for something else because of the way we design the tank and fix the broms pretty much all are easily removable in these two tanks,although i hadn't ever really thought in depth about actually removing them other than if they fail.
My hope is with this viv that the breeding will take place in this front brom, the 3 up top will provide maybe a choice of breeding or roosting sites,but if they are obliging they use the one at the front :lol2: they won't now i've said that.
Totally aware of the brom nudicollis is it that the mysties breed in Ade and its size,i was just wondering what other alternatives might be found over time,to bromeliads and of course film cans,there must be other alternatives that look good.
Tell me which discussion are you refering to ie the bit about phytotelmata,i don't often use these words because i can't see how to write the letters in the right order, but i'm pretty sure where i read it is not where you think i have "nabbed" it from please give me a link.
Ade i have at this time no frogs breeding that actually are using broms as deposition sites,but i can visuallise problems,so no harm in thinking on that,before i actually have to deal with a situation,that i had not planed for
Stu


----------



## richie.b

Personally i cant ever see broms being replaced in vivs theyre just to ideal for what is needed. Dont get me wrong i dont always use broms in tinc vivs or just maybe the odd one just to look good but my pumilio vivs have all got broms in. I would say 99% of my pums spawn on the brom leaf but most use the film cannisters to raise the tads in proberbly because i put quite a few cannisters in the vivs and they do hold a nice pool of water but the broms are there if they do need to use them. This system has worked for me for many years with pums and i will continue to use it as the saying goes if it aint broke dont fix it. Mind you as you know its not just any brom those crappy guzmania things you buy in the supermarket are about as much use to a pumilio as a bunch of flowers.
As for artificial rearing of pums ive done it to a certain age but its not very successful so try not to i did just raise some colon tads until i could foster them out to my bribri and now shes bringing them up, ive also got 2 pairs of shepherd especially just to raise the tads of rarer pums that are having trouble raising there own. 
Anyway broms will never be replaced in my vivs thats for certain 

Richie


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Personally i cant ever see broms being replaced in vivs theyre just to ideal for what is needed. Dont get me wrong i dont always use broms in tinc vivs or just maybe the odd one just to look good but my pumilio vivs have all got broms in. I would say 99% of my pums spawn on the brom leaf but most use the film cannisters to raise the tads in proberbly because i put quite a few cannisters in the vivs and they do hold a nice pool of water but the broms are there if they do need to use them. This system has worked for me for many years with pums and i will continue to use it as the saying goes if it aint broke dont fix it. Mind you as you know its not just any brom those crappy guzmania things you buy in the supermarket are about as much use to a pumilio as a bunch of flowers.
> As for artificial rearing of pums ive done it to a certain age but its not very successful so try not to i did just raise some colon tads until i could foster them out to my bribri and now shes bringing them up, ive also got 2 pairs of shepherd especially just to raise the tads of rarer pums that are having trouble raising there own.
> Anyway broms will never be replaced in my vivs thats for certain
> 
> Richie


Fascinating Rich are the cans that are used always vertical?Mate could you elabourate on how you manged to get the colon tads to a place where you could foster them and how you went about doing that?
also Rich could you tell me which morphs of Pum are noted for not being good parents in captivity and which are more excepting of rearing under captive conditoins,finally well done mate,fair play on those colons...WOW:notworthy:
congrats
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

You didn't borrow it from this then The Perfect Background - Dendroboard lol I figured the topics were so similar this may have been what brought the idea into your mind perhaps. The odd thing is, I had been considering a 'glueless' viv before finding that thread, piling wood and cork bark instead in a 30x40x40 that's recently become spare.

Now I am with you there is no harm in looking into alternatives. I just feel that in this instance you will be hard pressed to find one, for certain frogs at least broms will always be the most elegant solution.

Pum wise though, I have been learning the ropes from Richie, so have a similar broms+film canisters set up in my pum vivs.  Other vivs though I have very very few broms as the frogs don't particularly use them.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> You didn't borrow it from this then The Perfect Background - Dendroboard lol I figured the topics were so similar this may have been what brought the idea into your mind perhaps. The odd thing is, I had been considering a 'glueless' viv before finding that thread, piling wood and cork bark instead in a 30x40x40 that's recently become spare.
> 
> Now I am with you there is no harm in looking into alternatives. I just feel that in this instance you will be hard pressed to find one, for certain frogs at least broms will always be the most elegant solution.
> 
> Pum wise though, I have been learning the ropes from Richie, so have a similar broms+film canisters set up in my pum vivs.  Other vivs though I have very very few broms as the frogs don't particularly use them.
> 
> Ade


Nah, but yup i saw the thread,pretty sure i posted on it its something,i've been wondering about for a long time since a guy posted some pics on the cematary (basti),erm somewhere,i think Martin on dendroworld .
Stemcellular's thread set me thinking about natural backgrounds,in a big way Ade,and about how the hell to tackle a tree butress, something i've been scheming on for a good while,honestly thats enough for me to dwell on in one thread,and as above there may well be no more viable solutions,but actually i'm glad i stated it as the comments after have been equally thought prevoking,:lol2: i want Richie to educate me too as you have already seen,
yeah only our summersi use the broms at present,although not yet for breeding,but they utilise them all the time,i'm struggling to think of ever seeing any of our other frogs in a brom at all,but given what they are that doesn't really surprise me that much,maybe with the exception of the mysties,but as you say there is some major difference to the broms i chose (which were chosen with thought) and the broms they are so oft found in,pretty much chalk and cheese really
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Had a sort of backgroundless viv since October Stu. I say sort of, as unlike the American take on this it's NOT bare on all 4 sides, but rather the background is ON THE OUTSIDE.










As you can see, the wood structure provides plenty of climbing and hiding opportunities. Unlike the Americans I went with this NOT because I was worried about chemicals, or even aesthetics. I did it because a) it was less work and mess and b) tree frogs (which that viv houses) actually seem to prefer glass to things like eco earth etc when climbing the sides.

I am planning something similar for that 30x40x40 as well, but with more wood and cork bark up the back and sides, and broms and film pots. Oh and no false bottom or water fall. lol

My tincs use broms as perches, but only in the same way as they use any other decor. My Ameerega bassieri Sisa are the odd ones out, many of them actually 'go to bed' in or on broms. My FG Amazonica neither lay eggs or put tadpoles in them though, in fact they are only arboreal when hiding/sleeping, the rest of the time they are more terrestrial than some of my tincs.

Where broms are concerned though, I chose with care for frogs that reputedly use them. In vivs where they are less important though aesthetics (and final size) factor in more. Luckily though, some of the nicest looking broms also have the best vases etc on them, and seem to be really popular with the frogs. Perfect example, my female Cristobal LOVES vriesa species broms, and spends most of her time in them, these just happen to be lovely looking as well.  She has a LOT of choice in there, but always ends up in one of the 3 vriesa in there. Good for me, as they have good deep but wide vases that you can look right down into.  Neos Mephisto and good old fireball always seem popular choices as well, along with the rather large antea.

As to a tree buttress, well when I look at one I zoom in, and all I see is a wall of wood with perhaps a few holes in it. That's the thing with butress tanks, they're actually scale models, rather than a simulacrum. Look nice, but I doubt the frog looks and thinks "ooh, that's so like my home", as to the frog home is that wall of wood with leaf litter at the bottom.  Really easy to make a wall of wood with holes and leaf litter at the bottom of it. Wont look like a buttress to you and me, but maybe just maybe it will to the frogs. 

Ade

Edit to say, I actually removed most of that leaf litter, and put a lovely big red brom at the top of the wood. Leaf litter removed because the crickets found it too easy to hide in, brom because it looked nice. Turns out the frogs like to sleep on/in it anyway, so win win.


----------



## Ron Magpie

Ron Magpie said:


> That's stunning.





soundstounite said:


> Thanks Ron tell me mate did you see the newest viv? I'm just curious,these pages move so fast,i'm trying to guage why some of us,me included are drawn to that auratus tank,of course as i made them all i don't have any axes to grind just the above, curiosity, i'm sure its the simplicity of it but don't let that sway your reply, tell me straight dude:lol2:
> Stu





soundstounite said:


> Matty no worries about it going off topic,funny is it not that broms seem so synonymous with a dart tank. but where they are used by the frogs as phytotelmata,they present real difficulties for a dart keeper that needs to remove said tads. I saw some pics awhile back of where the cematary basti morph actually inhabit,what i and others instantly noticed was the fact that there were no broms for deposition sites,at this location. I wonder in the future if we as a hobby will move away from broms in alot of cases.The last tank we have put together has 2 very large broms in it in the hope that they will be used as breeding sites but i'm really starting to wonder what the other options are, other than the ubiquitus (sp please) film can.
> Stu





justairplants said:


> I hope not :gasp::gasp::gasp:
> Gill
> Just Airplants


Hehe. I've said before that much as I like some of the vivs with broms, I do prefer a variety- there is a danger that all vivs will become identical! :lol2: The pure simplicity of this viv really appeals to me Stu and gives me ideas for my burrowing frog's tank when I finally get it set up, but I don't think you have to make any emergency business plans yet, Gill! Ade, nearly all of my tanks have 'outside' backgrounds, it's quick and easy, and as you say, climbing frogs seem to like glass; although I am frequently jealous of the stunning tanks you, Stu and others put together.


----------



## Wolfenrook

Thanks Ron, although I have to say when my vivs come out nice it's more luck than anything, I just seem to be lucky. lol

Stu, finally looked back at that auratus viv, and have to agree it's very very nice. Have you considered putting a bit of moss slurry on the 'rocks' at all here and there? It 'ages' them nicely and makes them look more natural, as it's rare you see a completely bare rock, they always seem to have either moss or lichen on them. Have a look at the pics here Dendrobates.org - Dendrobates auratus. Some of them are of rocky auratus habitats and not a bare rock to be seen. 

As to your choice of morph, my only advice is go for a bolder one! My Ancon Hill (Canal Zone/6 spot) are gorgeous frogs, but not much point having them when I see them about twice a month.... lol I am sure you wont chose as badly as me though, already having auratus in another viv and all.  That said, I still love my Ancon Hill. Sort of a case of I enjoy having them, even though I barely see them, if that makes sense?

Ade


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Fascinating Rich are the cans that are used always vertical?Mate could you elabourate on how you manged to get the colon tads to a place where you could foster them and how you went about doing that?
> also Rich could you tell me which morphs of Pum are noted for not being good parents in captivity and which are more excepting of rearing under captive conditoins,finally well done mate,fair play on those colons...WOW:notworthy:
> congrats
> Stu



The film cannisters are all vertical for pums theyre used solely for raising tads not for spawning sites so dont really need them on an angle or with half of another cannister put in them to get the eggs out as you dont need to do this. I moved the colon from there quaranteen viv into there new home and noticed they had spawned on a leaf on the floor, i put the leaf in with them but when they hatched they took no notice of the tads at all so i raised them for awhile on quail egg yolk, only used quail because i have some and they lay eggs daily. When raising tadpoles this way they take ages to grow and dont often survive so when i saw my bribri carrying some tads about i just put some of the colon tads in empty cannisters in there viv and hoped for the best, trouble is then she put her tadpoles in the same cannisters so now ive got a couple of cannisters with 2 tads in, they seem to be doing ok and she feeds them well so they havent eaten each other yet, but only time will tell how successful it is.
Dont really know which pums are known for not being good parents ive found them all good once they get themselves sorted. The problem ive got is snails in my vivs its taken a year to get my robalo to spawn but the snails are eating the eggs before they hatch same with the escudo if you seen how many escudo eggs ive lost over the last couple of months its enough to make you cry. I dont want to move the robalo or escudo because theyre happy in the vivs so ive started putting in little trays of beer in the vivs which is working but until the problem is totally sorted i hope to foster the next batch to the shepherd, if all goes to plan ill replace the shepherd tads with the robalo or escudo which is pretty much the only reason ive got the shepherd. But its always a big if :blush:
Just had some cayo de aqua eggs hatch as well so will be interesting to see if they transport them, getting pums to spawn is the easy bit in my opinion 
Got a couple of pairs of bastimentos salt creek coming over the weekend plus a few others just to expand my collection because you can never have to many pumilios :2thumb:

Richie


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Thanks Ron, although I have to say when my vivs come out nice it's more luck than anything, I just seem to be lucky. lol
> 
> Stu, finally looked back at that auratus viv, and have to agree it's very very nice. Have you considered putting a bit of moss slurry on the 'rocks' at all here and there? It 'ages' them nicely and makes them look more natural, as it's rare you see a completely bare rock, they always seem to have either moss or lichen on them. Have a look at the pics here Dendrobates.org - Dendrobates auratus. Some of them are of rocky auratus habitats and not a bare rock to be seen.
> 
> As to your choice of morph, my only advice is go for a bolder one! My Ancon Hill (Canal Zone/6 spot) are gorgeous frogs, but not much point having them when I see them about twice a month.... lol I am sure you wont chose as badly as me though, already having auratus in another viv and all.  That said, I still love my Ancon Hill. Sort of a case of I enjoy having them, even though I barely see them, if that makes sense?
> 
> Ade


Also thanks Ron,Ade i have something happening on the rocks, i think because i have used some of the epiweb moss mix in there.That said it could just be algae,but there are a couple of green patches showing.you do make a great point,though,one doesn't see many bare rocks in the photos. The rocks being fake maybe dry out quicker then natural ones would,mind you i guess rock porosity might govern this with real rocks. I'm curious to see what happens with them to be honest,without messing initially at least,but the slurry might well be used later on,it is a sound idea,i'm curious as to what the green is going to develope into(its not visable in the pics.this one is actually growing in a bit faster then i expected,i used almost all very young plants or cuttings,and expected it to take around a year to be what i pictured.Noticable that the ficus from equador seem much slower than the columbian in growth,planted in similar positions on opposite sides towards the front.When you were talking about tree buttreses what does simularcrum,mean?
Auratus are difficult to guage on shyness i think mate,the SB's vary from boldish to very shy over 3 frogs reared i guess the same,the specials are more even over the group of 5,i stood in the room with 2 mates awhile back talking and they were all out,a couple of froggers came here,and i don't think they got a glimpse of them.What will be interesting is discovering how we have reared the froglets affects their boldness when they find new homes,i would say that at present they are bolder than any adults/near adults we have.They are out when i'm banging about in the room messing with all the cultures,it will be interesting to see how this pans out,we have talked about this before i recolect. If i can get the morph i'd most like i'll just have to go with the flow as no one here that i know of keeps them, actually i don't know of anyone else other than yourself with aconhill, and we both have seen real shy and real bold Elcope,so it might just be a matter of luck this boldness issue.It is a shame auratus seem to have such a big escape distance,they are such strong beautiful frogs,i don't really expect then to almost come when called like our citronella do,but if i could keep the young to that stage where they are out hunting when folks are about i'll be well chuffed,all the mad sillyness with rearing them will be worth it.
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

If it helps any Stu, the 'rocks' in my bribri viv are fake, they're Unipac ones. I made my slurry up with a bit of sphagnum peat in it, and the moss is growing fine on the fake rocks and the fake background and side.  The peat helps to retain moisture, and gives a nice 'dirty' look whilst the moss grows in as well.

You managed to find those perfect Azureas yet? As if you think cits are bold you need Azureas. lol Mine come to the glass door if I stroke it, and one nearly fell into the cup I feed with the other day as it couldn't wait for me to tip the flies into the viv.... lol

Ade


----------



## fardilis

Wolfenrook said:


> If it helps any Stu, the 'rocks' in my bribri viv are fake, they're Unipac ones. I made my slurry up with a bit of sphagnum peat in it, and the moss is growing fine on the fake rocks and the fake background and side.  The peat helps to retain moisture, and gives a nice 'dirty' look whilst the moss grows in as well.
> 
> You managed to find those perfect Azureas yet? As if you think cits are bold you need Azureas. lol Mine come to the glass door if I stroke it, and one nearly fell into the cup I feed with the other day as it couldn't wait for me to tip the flies into the viv.... lol
> 
> Ade


have you got any pics of the 'slurry' method once it grown a bit?

P.S sorry stu to clutter up your thread.


----------



## Wolfenrook

Aye, but I will post em in a new thread, not fair to keep Hijacking Stu's epic. lol

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> If it helps any Stu, the 'rocks' in my bribri viv are fake, they're Unipac ones. I made my slurry up with a bit of sphagnum peat in it, and the moss is growing fine on the fake rocks and the fake background and side.  The peat helps to retain moisture, and gives a nice 'dirty' look whilst the moss grows in as well.
> 
> You managed to find those perfect Azureas yet? As if you think cits are bold you need Azureas. lol Mine come to the glass door if I stroke it, and one nearly fell into the cup I feed with the other day as it couldn't wait for me to tip the flies into the viv.... lol
> 
> Ade


No we haven't yet Ade, Shaz will tell me when SHE finds them,and i'll do me damndest to get em for her,but she has to pick em because they are all blue to me:2thumb:,Ade the bit about one falling in the cup is wicked,i can visulise it,i can see that happening with theses citronella too,had me laughing that did.
thanks for the moss thoughts i'm going to have alook at your bribri thread.
Thanks for the non hijack but its all learning guys.Before i take some time to read what Richie's said 'cause i want to dwell on it,i'll hijack meself:

Tincs adore their food:lol2: as above,i'd love to know why we can't get them to full size in captivity,i'd love to know why this is so,i've talked to many many folks heard lots of theories,what you lot got then?
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

My money is on a combination of factors. Not enough variation in their diets (I am as guilty of this as the next person, I feed mels, hydei, dwarf woodlice, springtails and grain weevils) in comparison to what they get in the wild, where they eat multiple species of beatle, ants, flies etc etc etc. We do our best, and some keepers can get their frogs much bigger than most of us as they are out there doing meadow sweepings etc. The other factor is I believe genetics. In the wild smaller frogs probably don't make it, plus the DNA pool is much larger. Meanwhile we are breeding them with their siblings, often even when we get them from different sources they're related, and few froggers are up for culling, myself included.

No kidding tincs love their food! lol We've got Alanis, Azureas, Regina and Citronella. 

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> The film cannisters are all vertical for pums theyre used solely for raising tads not for spawning sites so dont really need them on an angle or with half of another cannister put in them to get the eggs out as you dont need to do this. I moved the colon from there quaranteen viv into there new home and noticed they had spawned on a leaf on the floor, i put the leaf in with them but when they hatched they took no notice of the tads at all so i raised them for awhile on quail egg yolk, only used quail because i have some and they lay eggs daily. When raising tadpoles this way they take ages to grow and dont often survive so when i saw my bribri carrying some tads about i just put some of the colon tads in empty cannisters in there viv and hoped for the best, trouble is then she put her tadpoles in the same cannisters so now ive got a couple of cannisters with 2 tads in, they seem to be doing ok and she feeds them well so they havent eaten each other yet, but only time will tell how successful it is.
> Dont really know which pums are known for not being good parents ive found them all good once they get themselves sorted. The problem ive got is snails in my vivs its taken a year to get my robalo to spawn but the snails are eating the eggs before they hatch same with the escudo if you seen how many escudo eggs ive lost over the last couple of months its enough to make you cry. I dont want to move the robalo or escudo because theyre happy in the vivs so ive started putting in little trays of beer in the vivs which is working but until the problem is totally sorted i hope to foster the next batch to the shepherd, if all goes to plan ill replace the shepherd tads with the robalo or escudo which is pretty much the only reason ive got the shepherd. But its always a big if :blush:
> Just had some cayo de aqua eggs hatch as well so will be interesting to see if they transport them, getting pums to spawn is the easy bit in my opinion
> Got a couple of pairs of bastimentos salt creek coming over the weekend plus a few others just to expand my collection because you can never have to many pumilios :2thumb:
> 
> Richie


Ahh mate the snails,nailing your eggs:devil::devil:....especially THESE eggs,maybe in this case i'd be more inclined to swear alot than cry mate but your right its damn hard to hear!! Richie will you keep me updated please on how all this turns out. Congrats on getting the colons as far as you have,ha livestock mate ya never know you might just get 2 froglets from one can.
Rich have you ever tried this nemaslug stuff i posted about here a little while back? We have the little blighters as well but have been real fortunate i guess,no eggs touched by them at all so far,(just cursed us mate!!).
You've set me thinking mate with the beer traps and all,i wonder if there is something in my tanks that they want more than the eggs,i know that they are heavily attracted to the fish flake and readybreak i build up the stocks of custodians with before frogs go in,and they go nuts for the pumpkin/marrow,that i'm using at the moment, that i part bury for woodlouce food,once just doing the usual and thinking out loud,if you could just distract them until those eggs hatch,ha there's me chucking ideas at you ,now thats funny:lol2:
So your saying easy to get pums to spawn but they don't always trasport,any reason why this is so mate?
I guess all that leaves is congrats on your new frogs,and erm pics:whistling2: when you have em settled and good luck with it
Stu


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Ahh mate the snails,nailing your eggs:devil::devil:....especially THESE eggs,maybe in this case i'd be more inclined to swear alot than cry mate but your right its damn hard to hear!! Richie will you keep me updated please on how all this turns out. Congrats on getting the colons as far as you have,ha livestock mate ya never know you might just get 2 froglets from one can.
> Rich have you ever tried this nemaslug stuff i posted about here a little while back? We have the little blighters as well but have been real fortunate i guess,no eggs touched by them at all so far,(just cursed us mate!!).
> You've set me thinking mate with the beer traps and all,i wonder if there is something in my tanks that they want more than the eggs,i know that they are heavily attracted to the fish flake and readybreak i build up the stocks of custodians with before frogs go in,and they go nuts for the pumpkin/marrow,that i'm using at the moment, that i part bury for woodlouce food,once just doing the usual and thinking out loud,if you could just distract them until those eggs hatch,ha there's me chucking ideas at you ,now thats funny:lol2:
> So your saying easy to get pums to spawn but they don't always trasport,any reason why this is so mate?
> I guess all that leaves is congrats on your new frogs,and erm pics:whistling2: when you have em settled and good luck with it
> Stu


Yes Stu i did swear a lot especially with the robalo as its taking me pretty much a year to get them to spawn this is why i dont want to move them. I had thought about the nemetode things or whatever you call them ive asked about but nobody could give me any real answers so until i know for sure theyre safe i dont want to try them. The dishes of beer are working well picked one up yesterday and thought thats crap theres only 2 in there but when i looked on the ground where the dish was it was covered in drunken snails, all singing and dancing :whistling2:
If you are still putting fishflakes and readybreak in they will go for that im sure but i know theyve got a taste for egg yolk they dont eat the jelly. 

Dont worry Stu ill get it sorted one way or another, but if you do find out anymore about those nemetode things let me know

Well ive found that some pairs spawn easily pretty much straight away but others can take ages to settle and i dont mean morphs just individual pairs, of course theres always the case she might not fancy him or other way around dont forget its us that put them together theyre not picking there own mate, then its getting some of them to transport thats a problem but once they get themselves sorted they usually breed quite readily, this is my experience with pums you know yourself everybodies got different views. 


cheers
Richie


----------



## richie.b

There you go Stu picture of the bastimentos salt creek just after i put them into there quaranteen viv. Got to be honest theyre better than i thought stunning little pums glad i had 2 pairs now :2thumb:












Richie


----------



## frogman955

Nice wee frogs there Richie.
Here`s a photo of my pair.
Male at the bottom.

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Yes Stu i did swear a lot especially with the robalo as its taking me pretty much a year to get them to spawn this is why i dont want to move them. I had thought about the nemetode things or whatever you call them ive asked about but nobody could give me any real answers so until i know for sure theyre safe i dont want to try them. The dishes of beer are working well picked one up yesterday and thought thats crap theres only 2 in there but when i looked on the ground where the dish was it was covered in drunken snails, all singing and dancing :whistling2:
> If you are still putting fishflakes and readybreak in they will go for that im sure but i know theyve got a taste for egg yolk they dont eat the jelly.
> 
> Dont worry Stu ill get it sorted one way or another, but if you do find out anymore about those nemetode things let me know
> 
> Well ive found that some pairs spawn easily pretty much straight away but others can take ages to settle and i dont mean morphs just individual pairs, of course theres always the case she might not fancy him or other way around dont forget its us that put them together theyre not picking there own mate, then its getting some of them to transport thats a problem but once they get themselves sorted they usually breed quite readily, this is my experience with pums you know yourself everybodies got different views.
> 
> 
> cheers
> Richie


The nematodes Richie,i've talked to the most knowledgable boffin types i Know, namely Graham ( dendroworks) and Ed on dendroboard,both say they are so species specific there should be no issues with the Frogs,although they might be so damn species specific they might only take out slugs and not snails. On some of the bumph i read they refer to not using them around ponds because of the risk to aquatic snails,which means there is a possiblility they might work under our very humid viv conditions.The yanks can't use then because they are non native to them,they are native here,red tape prevents them introducing them over there,which given man's track record with introduced species is probably no bad thing!! But i haven't found anyone here whom has tried this yet,i appreciate your concearns.
I hope you can get on top of this Richie,even if we went to the lengths that the americans do with sterilising everything,,it is so easy to get snails in a tank,i take great glea in squishing them into my cork,the baby wood lice love them,if i could just get the woodlice to tackle them live we would have no more problems lol,but i don't think thats going to happen somehow.
Yeah Gary mentioned about them only eating the yolks,incidentally thats where your Robelo came from did they not,i remember him advertising them,i'd never heard of them before,didn't even realise they were pum at first:blush:,i can see why you don't want to move them,I'd be spitting fire mate after getting them going to have this happen.
I hear you one the pair compatability Rich,would you say more so with oophaga than other genii?
thankyou real interesting!!
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> There you go Stu picture of the bastimentos salt creek just after i put them into there quaranteen viv. Got to be honest theyre better than i thought stunning little pums glad i had 2 pairs now :2thumb:
> 
> 
> 
> image
> 
> Richie


:censor: me mate,i can see why your glad ya got 2 prs....WOW,they are some pretty frogs,i can see why your chuffed
congrats
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Nice wee frogs there Richie.
> Here`s a photo of my pair.
> Male at the bottom.
> 
> Mike
> 
> image


ha they aren't bad either:2thumb: Mike,is the leg colour,blue or grey difficult to tell with cameras,they don't always give true colours
cheers
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Hi Stu.
I beleive you get both green and grey legs.
Mine are grey.

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Hi Stu.
> I beleive you get both green and grey legs.
> Mine are grey.
> 
> Mike


Thankyou Mike,much appreciated,ya know all this is going to make it real difficult not to become obsessed with pums:lol2:,i was looking on dendro board earlier and found myself on my third pum thread
not good:mf_dribble:
Stu


----------



## frogman955

I think your hooked Stu.
I think i`ve been through about every Pum related thread on Dendroboard so be prepared for a lot of reading.
It has even crossed my mind a couple of times to clear out all my other frogs and replace them with Pums :whistling2:

Mike


----------



## richie.b

Well not saying i like pums but ive got at the moment

Blue jeans 6
black jeans 4
escudo 5
robalo 2
bribri 4
nancy 4
cristobal 4
punta clara 4
cayo de aqua 4
saltcreek 4
almirante 3
las tablas 1
shepherd 4
colon 2
chirique grande 2
esperanza 4
cauchero 3
popa 2

thats adult frogs

i think thats it for this year anyway :2thumb:

Richie


----------



## kroot

:gasp:


----------



## fardilis

richie.b said:


> Blue jeans 6
> black jeans 4
> escudo 5
> robalo 2
> bribri 4
> nancy 4
> cristobal 4
> punta clara 4
> cayo de aqua 4
> saltcreek 4
> almirante 3
> las tablas 1
> shepherd 4
> colon 2
> chirique grande 2
> esperanza 4
> cauchero 3
> popa 2


how much?:lol2:


----------



## marcuswinner1

Bloody hell Richie, that is some collection of Pums!!!

......and I was umming and arring about getting a pair:blush:


----------



## frogman955

Richie
"i think thats it for this year anyway" doesn`t say much for it being december lmao.

Mike


----------



## MARK.D

richie.b said:


> Blue jeans 6
> black jeans 4
> escudo 5
> robalo 2
> bribri 4
> nancy 4
> cristobal 4
> punta clara 4
> cayo de aqua 4
> saltcreek 4
> almirante 3
> las tablas 1
> shepherd 4
> colon 2
> chirique grande 2
> esperanza 4
> cauchero 3
> popa 2


:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> I think your hooked Stu.
> I think i`ve been through about every Pum related thread on Dendroboard so be prepared for a lot of reading.
> It has even crossed my mind a couple of times to clear out all my other frogs and replace them with Pums :whistling2:
> 
> Mike


:lol2: no Mike....erm Richie's hooked:2thumb: there is a certain irony though,in that the pum Shaz and I desire most Richie doesn't keep.....LMFAO YET,but i know for a fact he will have some sooner or later,i can just feel it!!
Seriously fabulous collection Richie.would love to see them one day.I knew you were into them in a big way but didn't realise quite how big many congrats mate and fair play for the graft you have put in to get them, tell me Rich when did you actually decide to go into pums in such a big way?
Mike i read too much about all these damn frogs thats why i can never remember anything,or where i read it:whistling2:,i do love them though,but they are not quite my most desired frog,there are a couple of species that i will always want,and they'll come one day when i think we have learnt enough to do right by them,but the pums will come first. The viv is built and growing in, but we are not really rushing to get them at present,just enjoying all what we do have and basking in the joy of playing with the kids,we have been incredible fortunate to get this far,so soon!! 
take care both of you
Stu


----------



## richie.b

Thanks guys it is quite a good collection, as Stu said its not complete yet but watch this space next year :2thumb:
I will of course be selling some of the ones ive just listed i dont need that many and need the room for others as at the moment im full to bursting with all my other dartfrogs as well

Stu as you know ive always kept pums and they have always been my favourite but never had anywhere near this many before, but when i decided to get back into frogs again after my long 4 months without them :blush: i decided i wanted more pums so started collecting them straight away then by a bit of luck was offered a chance to sell them and the rest is history as they say. So this collection of pums has taken me a year to get as well as all my other darts so very lucky to be able to do it really, also being able to make all your own vivs plus sell them helps a lot
Next year i was thinking of building a new workshop for making vivs but now think ill build a new frogroom and use the old frogroom to make the vivs in, well thats the plan but as we all no anything could happen before then

Mike i thought i wouldnt be getting anymore after the october shipment but someone keeps teasing me with new ones :mf_dribble:but thats it now until march, definatly :whistling2:

Richie


----------



## frogman955

Someone teasing Richie ?
In here :gasp:
They should be ashamed of themselves :rotfl:


Mike


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Thanks guys it is quite a good collection, as Stu said its not complete yet but watch this space next year :2thumb:
> I will of course be selling some of the ones ive just listed i dont need that many and need the room for others as at the moment im full to bursting with all my other dartfrogs as well
> 
> Stu as you know ive always kept pums and they have always been my favourite but never had anywhere near this many before, but when i decided to get back into frogs again after my long 4 months without them :blush: i decided i wanted more pums so started collecting them straight away then by a bit of luck was offered a chance to sell them and the rest is history as they say. So this collection of pums has taken me a year to get as well as all my other darts so very lucky to be able to do it really, also being able to make all your own vivs plus sell them helps a lot
> Next year i was thinking of building a new workshop for making vivs but now think ill build a new frogroom and use the old frogroom to make the vivs in, well thats the plan but as we all no anything could happen before then
> 
> Mike i thought i wouldnt be getting anymore after the october shipment but someone keeps teasing me with new ones :mf_dribble:but thats it now until march, definatly :whistling2:
> 
> Richie


As above mate total admiration,for going for it,ya know what there is only one bit i don't really believe,and thats the bit about waiting till march:mf_dribble::lol2:Mike you been teasing Richie? cruel man :gasp:
Our little bit of cool news,we have 2 little tinc tads,while they are quite big little tinc tads....GET IN,just need the 3rd to come out now and that'll be 3 out of 3...OOOORRRAAA
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Nice one on the tads Stu.
Erm ............. any photo`s ?

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Nice one on the tads Stu.
> Erm ............. any photo`s ?
> 
> Mike


I'll try mate,just sat down for a wee dram :lol2:,on medical grounds you understand,root filling does not like the cold,setting up more iso cultures,making tubs for kids, plucking dinner,the usual general industrial mayhem I'm so good at creating,i'll get cracking,load em then back at it,too many froggie jobs to do yet
onwards and .....
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

'Ere ya go bro
da Attachibakka just hatched








and just for you one little luec,kinda for comparison purposes Mike,but a few days older








and finally one little mystie,just for the crack,around the same age as the luec,too many mike to keep track of them all,








back to those springs mate enjoy,
Matty again i forgot ya:blush: but working on what we talked about be in touch soon,much to do
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Nice pics Stu thanks :2thumb:
Here`s a little something for you to have a look at Stu.
Poison Dart Frogs, Dendrobates Leucomelas

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Nice pics Stu thanks :2thumb:
> Here`s a little something for you to have a look at Stu.
> Poison Dart Frogs, Dendrobates Leucomelas
> 
> Mike


Thanks for the link Mike,are those yours,is that your site? great pics!!!!
Mike looking over them ,its amazing just how similar developement is with our auratus tads,even down to the colour showing in the last week just before morphout. Mike our slightly older leuc tads i'd swear i can see a central yellow band,but its too small for me to get a shot of at this stage with my camera gear,at the moment. Very young leucs tads seem,just abit squarer at the front,going to be interesting to watch all 3 tinc clade develope at the same time,if all goes well
Stu


----------



## Sandsifter

frogman955 said:


> Nice pics Stu thanks :2thumb:
> Here`s a little something for you to have a look at Stu.
> Poison Dart Frogs, Dendrobates Leucomelas
> 
> Mike


Stu might be looking. I'm staring..

Chris


----------



## frogman955

Thanks guys :notworthy:
Its actually my mates site for his shop which I work on for him.
I thought i`d use it as a platform to try and publicise dart frogs up here and hopefully get more people into the hobby.
The Leucs are mine and were all hatched and raised this past few months.
The Anthonyi`s were my first dart frogs and which I sold off earlier this year.
I`m trying to create pages for different frogs as time goes on but it`s going to be a very long process, especially with the Pums which rear differently to the Dendrobates.

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> Stu might be looking. I'm staring..
> 
> Chris


Only because we are being so lucky Chris,and seeing it all daily,a few months back i'd have been squiffy eyed too:2thumb: although i don't think the magic of this will ever wear off. 
Good for you Mike,looks like your doing a damn fine job too:no1:
3rd tinc is out just moved to water,mystie Tad about to go the same,route,the big deal today is ever since i got in summersi are following each other around checking film cans and stroking,still at it now,no calling,but its cool to watch,them being all :flrt:she is actually huge at the moment ,well in a very small way,i'm not getting too excited just as before good to see them happy and seemingly enjoying themselves
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Once you guys have stopped being all gooey eyed you could maybe hit me with some feedback on if you think theres room for improvement :2thumb:.
At the end of the day I build it up but sometimes it takes another pair of eyes to see any problems.

Mike


----------



## fardilis

soundstounite said:


> there is a certain irony though,in that the pum Shaz and I desire most Richie doesn't keep


which is?

just looked at the 'isla baki' they look pretty awsum.


----------



## Wolfenrook

That'd be cemetary bastis then. lol I wouldn't be shocked Stu if some point next year Richie informs us all that he has a big group viv with them in it.  I gotta be honest though, there's nicer pums than them to be sure.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Once you guys have stopped being all gooey eyed you could maybe hit me with some feedback on if you think theres room for improvement :2thumb:.
> At the end of the day I build it up but sometimes it takes another pair of eyes to see any problems.
> 
> Mike


Bare with me mate,will make it happen
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

fardilis said:


> which is?
> 
> just looked at the 'isla baki' they look pretty awsum.


As above the polymorphic cematary basti,....
.isla baki,is that right? i haven't checked but i don't think i have heard of this ?
cheers
Stu


----------



## fardilis

soundstounite said:


> As above the polymorphic cematary basti,....
> .isla baki,is that right? i haven't checked but i don't think i have heard of this ?
> cheers
> Stu











isla baki.


----------



## Morgan Freeman

fardilis said:


> image
> isla baki.


How do you tell that apart from Cauchero?


----------



## fardilis

Morgan Freeman said:


> How do you tell that apart from Cauchero?


not sure i just found them on a pumilio morph guide


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> That'd be cemetary bastis then. lol I wouldn't be shocked Stu if some point next year Richie informs us all that he has a big group viv with them in it.  I gotta be honest though, there's nicer pums than them to be sure.
> 
> Ade


Absolutely cems ,i'm kinda going the other way Ade i will be shocked if Richie hasn't set up his big "rainbow tank" next year.
Yeah to your eyes mate there are nicer looking pums,but the dark orange spotty guy with white underneath has always grabbed both Shaz and I,we both set our hearts on them ages ago,man it would be boring if we all liked the same stuff.That said Richie's last pics here of the red top with white underneath, red frog beach but might be salt creek.... i haven't seen before,and they grab us bigstyle too.
I guess its abit like all these multimorph frogs,it is easy to pull a few favourites,but after that it becomes incredibly difficult to say that this ONE is my personal favourite,that is a very hard decision to make
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Agreed Stu, wouldn't do for us to all like the same frogs.  I already have plenty of orange pums though, in the form of my Isla San Cristobal. 

For multi colours though, you can't go wrong with Punta Clara, aka Esperanza locality 2. Love my trio, 1 blue, 1 orange with dark blue legs and 1 mauve with lighter blue legs. All the same morph, much like cemetary bastis. 

I will agree though, those Salt Creeks of Richie's made my mouth water! Gorgeous truly! That said, I can now do 1 more pum, and have drawn up a short list of:-

Cauchero
Colon
Cayo de Aqua

All gorgeous morphs. I wouldn't refuse Chirique Grande either, all nice pums. Waiting to see what Richie gets hold of early next year. 

I will confess though, that before I got my Punta Clara I too wanted cem bastis. Just now there are other morphs I'd rather have now I am limited for space to 1 viv (only have that space because my Rio Napa vents never went anywhere, total opposites to my French Guyana and Borja Ridge...). Will be a 40x40x50 with side drilled drain from Richie some time next year. 

I think Isla Baki only got added to the morphguide recently, they possibly aren't even available in the hobby, so wouldn't advise wish listing them. Not when you can get Cauchero anyway.  Lots of frogs on that guide wont ever reach the hobby, and if they do will be illegal smuggled frogs. Or in some cases, other more common morphs been sold as rarer ones. 

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Morgan Freeman said:


> How do you tell that apart from Cauchero?


I don't know about pums like others here Paul,but i do know you are going to be hard pressed to id some of them by their appearance, is it phenotype, alone.Ie with out collection data you wont know whether its morph (a) or morph (b)...period!! If you run down the T E morph guide,visually you'll see it all over the shop:
eg red cem: red frog beach
More knowledgeable folk will know of size differences build etc,its a perfect example of why i'm not hung up on the science,but why i'd personally love to know where me frog actually comes from
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Here is a couple of pics of one of my Cauchero`s.
Both pics are of the same frog.
Now you can make your comparisons :2thumb:

Mike


----------



## SuperPenguiin

I've just sat for the past 4 hours reading (scanning) through this thread, I'm kind of sad now as i want to know what happens next lol. You Mr Stu are amazing, you're babies are beautiful and i wish you all the best in the rest of your jorney. :thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Here is a couple of pics of one of my Cauchero`s.
> Both pics are of the same frog.
> Now you can make your comparisons :2thumb:
> 
> Mike
> 
> image
> 
> image


Ha Mike just a thankyou for posting such a stunning pic here as that second cauchero...WOW actually well i'm say ta,i'd like to thank all the guys who've popped up pum pics here of late and for the knowledge given on them,inspiring to me and others.
:notworthy:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

SuperPenguiin said:


> I've just sat for the past 4 hours reading (scanning) through this thread, I'm kind of sad now as i want to know what happens next lol. You Mr Stu are amazing, you're babies are beautiful and i wish you all the best in the rest of your jorney. :thumb:


Ha i'd like to know what happens next too mate :mf_dribble:,but i guess that would spoil the fun,i do know where we're heading though,it is the imminant stuff i'm not sure on yet,ie how to tackle the next vivs with all the plants i've just brought in all over the place.I need to make 2 vivs and then i can start thinking on the rearing rack,but i can't move for plants.I also have the small:whistling2: issue of what will be living in those tanks,so i can build for them.
Thanks for the kind words and glad you enjoyed reading,
regards
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Hmmmm
"I also have the small:whistling2: issue of what will be living in those tanks"
Stu we all know whats going in there :2thumb:
It`s some nice Bastis :lol2:

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Hmmmm
> "I also have the small:whistling2: issue of what will be living in those tanks"
> Stu we all know whats going in there :2thumb:
> It`s some nice Bastis :lol2:
> 
> Mike


Hey mate,Mike I'm slightly confused over your post i think you mean one of my next vivs will be for basti,if that is not the case sorry mate but if it is,well its a resonable excuse for some pics eh,because our basti viv is sorted,its 50x50x60high and now looks like this,i can't actually remember when i planted this now,but i have to give credit to Phil in america for all his imput and thoughts,his site is Dart Den • Home ,for all that are interested,alot of knowledge there and some really cool folks with yonks of doing this that will help novices at the drop of a hat. One can't really say more than that.:notworthy:
Mike a basti viv
























a bit more detail on the top as the lights are messing with the above shot








Oh Matty not forgotton this time sorry abit of a quicky but playing with fast moving grey woods for way too long so wanted to get ya something before going back to it,viv is very dry at pres in an effort to stop them breeding,so the plants are not too happy








belucky both
Stu


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

soundstounite said:


> Hey mate,Mike I'm slightly confused over your post i think you mean one of my next vivs will be for basti,if that is not the case sorry mate but if it is,well its a resonable excuse for some pics eh,because our basti viv is sorted,its 50x50x60high and now looks like this,i can't actually remember when i planted this now,but i have to give credit to Phil in america for all his imput and thoughts,his site is Dart Den • Home ,for all that are interested,alot of knowledge there and some really cool folks with yonks of doing this that will help novices at the drop of a hat. One can't really say more than that.:notworthy:
> Mike a basti viv
> image
> image
> image
> a bit more detail on the top as the lights are messing with the above shot
> image
> Oh Matty not forgotton this time sorry abit of a quicky but playing with fast moving grey woods for way too long so wanted to get ya something before going back to it,viv is very dry at pres in an effort to stop them breeding,so the plants are not too happy
> image
> belucky both
> Stu


Stu both tanks look awesome but I REALLY like that mystie tank. Thanks for the picture!!!

Cannot wait to start doing my new tanks!


----------



## frogman955

Ok Stu I get you.
I`ll change your/my comment slightly, I hope you don`t mind.
"I also have the small:whistling2: issue of what will be living in *one* of those tanks".
Anyway I know you`ll do whats right :whistling2:
Thats a couple of nice vivs though so good luck with them.
Oh btw i`m supposed to be getting my new viv tomorrow, 100cm x 100cm x 50cm so watch this space.

Mike


----------



## fardilis

frogman955 said:


> *100cm x 100cm x 50cm*


:gasp:
and i thought mine was big.


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Stu both tanks look awesome but I REALLY like that mystie tank. Thanks for the picture!!!
> 
> Cannot wait to start doing my new tanks!


Utterly welcome dude,again my apologies for not sorting it sooner,i nearly messed up again:gasp:....got there in the end though huh: victory:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Ok Stu I get you.
> I`ll change your/my comment slightly, I hope you don`t mind.
> "I also have the small:whistling2: issue of what will be living in *one* of those tanks".
> Anyway I know you`ll do whats right :whistling2:
> Thats a couple of nice vivs though so good luck with them.
> Oh btw i`m supposed to be getting my new viv tomorrow, 100cm x 100cm x 50cm so watch this space.
> 
> Mike


Well Mike i think we have an accord, LMAO well i think so anyway,i'm not really the sharpest tool in the box am I:lol2:, but i 've a hunch what that big ol tank is for:mf_dribble::mf_dribble:,so absolutly i'll be watching this space
bring it on mate
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

fardilis said:


> :gasp:
> and i thought mine was big.


I'm not going there:lol2:
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

fardilis said:


> :gasp:
> and i thought mine was big.





soundstounite said:


> I'm not going there:lol2:
> Stu


I was *so* not going there! :lol2:


----------



## frogman955

Ron Magpie said:


> I was *so* not going there! :lol2:


 HAHA and neither am I :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

:notworthy:
thanks both:lol2:
Stu


----------



## philo

amazing viv build, started reading at 1:30 in the morning and finished at 6:30, you caused me a sleepless night with your awesomeness!!!!!!!
love the stack and you have inspired me !
amazing,
Bye


----------



## soundstounite

philo said:


> amazing viv build, started reading at 1:30 in the morning and finished at 6:30, you caused me a sleepless night with your awesomeness!!!!!!!
> love the stack and you have inspired me !
> amazing,
> Bye


Well i guess thats a first,causing someone a sleepless night i mean:2thumb: Very flattering though and glad you got something back other than lack of sleep. Honestly its quite bewildering to me,that folks like this enough to go through the whole lot,most of the time i think i'm probably boring the pants of folks.
cheers Philo
regards
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Well i guess thats a first,causing someone a sleepless night i mean:2thumb: Very flattering though and glad you got something back other than lack of sleep. Honestly its quite bewildering to me,that folks like this enough to go through the whole lot,most of the time i think i'm probably boring the pants of folks.
> cheers Philo
> regards
> Stu


As I've said zillions of times, Stu, your room is an inspiration, in that it shows what can be done with knowledge. time, care and putting the graft in!


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> As I've said zillions of times, Stu, your room is an inspiration, in that it shows what can be done with knowledge. time, care and putting the graft in!


cheers Ron, how areya mate? it does still surprise me Ron,but it is real flattering as well.
Man talk about graft i've been trying to set a new clean culture of some :censor:fast moving little grey woodlice,my starter had some other stuff in: springstails that i also want to isolate as they look to be slightly smaller than the seira we are working with,and some type of mite,not sure if there is competion and this might be slowing production. So i want to really see if we can do with them what we have with the dwarf whites,i've been hunched over the cultures now for ruddy ages with a pooter,my bloody head is falling off,but i must have pulled a couple of hundred now,but damn they are hard to catch without getting anything else as well. The lengths some mad folks will go eh:lol2:. They are going to make a great custodian i feel and real good for the frogs because they move so quick,the darts will really have to work for them,so hopefully it will give them one hell of a workout.Once we have these sorted we will have at least 3 types of woodlice in the vivs.
Tell me kiddo how are your dwarf white going?
Oh and how about a merrychrimbo mate just for the crack,:2thumb:
i better go back to it,only, god knows how many tads,all the springs and all the kidz to sort out now,ahh mate i'd love you to see these little mysties in person they are so damn fat,not something I'm really worried about at the moment while they are so small but they are so cute,its not true
belucky dude
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> cheers Ron, how areya mate? it does still surprise me Ron,but it is real flattering as well.
> Man talk about graft i've been trying to set a new clean culture of some :censor:fast moving little grey woodlice,my starter had some other stuff in: springstails that i also want to isolate as they look to be slightly smaller than the seira we are working with,and some type of mite,not sure if there is competion and this might be slowing production. So i want to really see if we can do with them what we have with the dwarf whites,i've been hunched over the cultures now for ruddy ages with a pooter,my bloody head is falling off,but i must have pulled a couple of hundred now,but damn they are hard to catch without getting anything else as well. The lengths some mad folks will go eh:lol2:. They are going to make a great custodian i feel and real good for the frogs because they move so quick,the darts will really have to work for them,so hopefully it will give them one hell of a workout.Once we have these sorted we will have at least 3 types of woodlice in the vivs.
> Tell me kiddo how are your dwarf white going?
> Oh and how about a merrychrimbo mate just for the crack,:2thumb:
> i better go back to it,only, god knows how many tads,all the springs and all the kidz to sort out now,ahh mate i'd love you to see these little mysties in person they are so damn fat,not something I'm really worried about at the moment while they are so small but they are so cute,its not true
> belucky dude
> Stu


Heh, I'm thinking of digging out my old pooter for frog food collecting- it's bound to be around somewhere! :lol2:I'm fine Stu, as is the boyf and the zoo. How is your Good Lady? The woods are increasing rapidly, both in the culture and in the vivs- as I thought, they really are too small for most of my frogs to eat (although I know there will be predators in the live leafmould I use), so they are able to get on with it. I can't be certain, but it seems as if droppings and decaying matter are disapearing much more quickly. Mind you, so are the dead leaves I put in for decor- good thing there is a ready replacement supply at the mo...

My new Madagscan burrowing frogs are of a size to eat the bigger ones though; they came in very useful when the frogs arrived. I'll introduce them when I set up their new Exo cube, as well.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Heh, I'm thinking of digging out my old pooter for frog food collecting- it's bound to be around somewhere! :lol2:I'm fine Stu, as is the boyf and the zoo. How is your Good Lady? The woods are increasing rapidly, both in the culture and in the vivs- as I thought, they really are too small for most of my frogs to eat (although I know there will be predators in the live leafmould I use), so they are able to get on with it. I can't be certain, but it seems as if droppings and decaying matter are disapearing much more quickly. Mind you, so are the dead leaves I put in for decor- good thing there is a ready replacement supply at the mo...
> 
> My new Madagscan burrowing frogs are of a size to eat the bigger ones though; they came in very useful when the frogs arrived. I'll introduce them when I set up their new Exo cube, as well.


HMMM she'd be a bit better if she hadn't tipped some of our dinner over herself mate,she's sat with her hand in water now,oh well she's incredibly tough,maybe another trip to hos on weds will finally yeild some respite for her.
Ok on to happier stuff glad them woods are going well mate,thats great news,dealing with darts i forget, well almost,what other phibs are capable of eating,but cool that you new guys like them.Tell me more about them Ron they are totally new to me,i'm so wrapped up in this dart lark i don't read so much on the other frogs as i did once.

We have already amassed sacs of oak leaves but we will still need more,i guess.I must try and get to some friends of ours they have lots of magnolia.
take care buddy
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Tell me more about them Ron they are totally new to me,i'm so wrapped up in this dart lark i don't read so much on the other frogs as i did once.
> Stu


Yeah, they are Madagascan Burrowing Frogs - _Scaphiophryne madagascariensis,_ part of the Microhylidae family.Cute little things, although pretty shy to start off with, they are starting to come out and explore and feed in 'public' a bit more now. I've only found two care sheets; a short one on Polywog's site and this: Madagascan Burrowing Frogs Care Sheet

I'm planning the Exo as we speak...:2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Yeah, they are Madagascan Burrowing Frogs - _Scaphiophryne madagascariensis,_ part of the Microhylidae family.Cute little things, although pretty shy to start off with, they are starting to come out and explore and feed in 'public' a bit more now. I've only found two care sheets; a short one on Polywog's site and this: Madagascan Burrowing Frogs Care Sheet
> 
> I'm planning the Exo as we speak...:2thumb:


Ha they are damn cute too Ron,I don't think i have ever seen anything like the rainbow (gottlebei),amazing colours.They remind me alot,as a genus, of Alex's breviceps is it?
Ha and you know i'm going to urge you to breed them,even though we both keep these animals for the joy of them,primarily,i'd love to see little froglets of these. that would be a pretty cool first for here aswell if not everywhere.
Best of luck with them Ron amazing little guys,i wonder if our mate Lotte might help in your quest for more knowledge about their care? good luck with the build too
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Ha they are damn cute too Ron,I don't think i have ever seen anything like the rainbow (gottlebei),amazing colours.They remind me alot,as a genus, of Alex's breviceps is it?
> Ha and you know i'm going to urge you to breed them,even though we both keep these animals for the joy of them,primarily,i'd love to see little froglets of these. that would be a pretty cool first for here aswell if not everywhere.
> Best of luck with them Ron amazing little guys,i wonder if our mate Lotte might help in your quest for more knowledge about their care? good luck with the build too
> Stu


Yep, Breviceps are microhylids too- very similar lifestyles, allowing for the fact that they come from drier habitats, so spend more time buried. Not sure of the sexes yet, although I deffo have at least one female. As per usual (!) I'm going to go for a fairly simple set-up- deepish soil, moss, wood and a few plants- ficus or ivy, maybe.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Yep, Breviceps are microhylids too- very similar lifestyles, allowing for the fact that they come from drier habitats, so spend more time buried. Not sure of the sexes yet, although I deffo have at least one female. As per usual (!) I'm going to go for a fairly simple set-up- deepish soil, moss, wood and a few plants- ficus or ivy, maybe.


I might just twist your arm or your BF's into getting us some pics up of these and the viv Ron....ha you can see why we said to ourselves just darts can't you mate,there are just so many of these amphibians that fascinate, without that limit,well i guess there would be no room in the house i'd be living outside with the temperate phibs, in all those outdoor enclosures,i wanted to build as a nipper,but fortunately i've forgotton about all that stuff:whistling2:.
Incredibly interesting cheers mate,learnt something tonight,actually Ron do you know what hylids refers too i'm guess the first bit micro is small?
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

We now have a breeding group of panama special auratus,first clutch without embyo's but it will come!! Well chuffed!! It will take some time i guess before we work out exactly what this group consists of,slowly but surely the dark areas on them are starting to get paler,it will be a good long while before they actually look their best they say around 3 yrs,can't wait .We are also seeing a slowdown in morph out,maybe this is down to slightly cooler water temps,maybe not so much live grub about now,difficult to know exactly what is going on. Once again we are running out of tadpole space,if our endevours to stop the mysties and super blues actually work then things should sort themselves out,they are slowing,thats for sure but not stopped,yet!!!
We also have some stonking superblues for sale now,see classifieds.
seeya
Stu


----------



## marcuswinner1

Thats good News Stu. Is there a definative list of all the types of Darts that you now have anywhere? I have dipped in and out of this thread over the months and seen lots of Frogs mentioned but was just wondering exactly how many different types you now have?


----------



## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> Thats good News Stu. Is there a definative list of all the types of Darts that you now have anywhere? I have dipped in and out of this thread over the months and seen lots of Frogs mentioned but was just wondering exactly how many different types you now have?


Thanks mate,we have 8 species/ morphs now
breeding: 
Mt Attchibakka pr
Mysties suspected 1;3
Auratus superblue 1;2 and panama special agroup of 5 at least 1;1
leucamedas3;1 plus one unknown
and
R.summersi pr
Tinc macheto 0;0;2
Tinc citronella0;0;2
froglets of SB and Mystie
and more than 2 tadpoles:lol2:
4 vivs set, growing in ready for frogs whenever but no rush,we are loving what we do have and playing kids is pretty damn cool
another couple of vivs underway,but we are not quite sure whom for yet alot depends on whether the summersi get moved to a new viv and get some mates,but they are happy and sort of thinking about getting jiggly so again no rush,plus we have so many plants in for the winter its just silly,so abit stuck for space.
I hoped to have a rearing rack built fairly soon but before we can do this 2 more tanks need to be installed,and the broms and other plants are living in those spaces,plus tads in glasses are taking up another 2 viv spaces, so we will continue with our rearing as we are untill this can be implimented.
Looking out for the kids has really slowed build progress, Marcus,its not just them but the other stuff around them that takes the time.We are massivley culturing so we are sure no one goes short later on,its incredibly difficult to work out how much one needs to feed x-froglets,especially when one hasn't done this before,but i can't get this wrong so the graft is being put in now
cheers for the interest dude,so thats the complete state of mayhem as it stands now,but i'm quite sure i'll be more confused soon:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## marcuswinner1

Thanks Stu, looking through the list I think I have seen em all mentioned but didn't fancy trawling all the way through your monster thread to remind myself!!:lol2:

Yeah, think you have enough to be getting on with for now without worrying what to fill your empty vivs with!

Ive really got to sort out some sort of rack and tidy up my existing frogs on there before planning any more. The annoying thing is that there seem to be so many cool Frogs available in the classifieds at the mo. Keep having to tell myself that I will still be able to buy plenty off cool stuff at the next Frog day as well as from all the people selling nice Frogs now but at a later date!

Keep up the good work mate!

Marcus.


----------



## Ron Magpie

Heh, if Morgan gets his act together I'm having his old rack- which will free up loads of space. Of course, I'm not going to use the space for *any* more frogs...:whistling2:


----------



## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> Thanks Stu, looking through the list I think I have seen em all mentioned but didn't fancy trawling all the way through your monster thread to remind myself!!:lol2:
> 
> Yeah, think you have enough to be getting on with for now without worrying what to fill your empty vivs with!
> 
> Ive really got to sort out some sort of rack and tidy up my existing frogs on there before planning any more. The annoying thing is that there seem to be so many cool Frogs available in the classifieds at the mo. Keep having to tell myself that I will still be able to buy plenty off cool stuff at the next Frog day as well as from all the people selling nice Frogs now but at a later date!
> 
> Keep up the good work mate!
> 
> Marcus.


your welcome mate,this thing needs an index:lol2:,hell even i struggle to find stuff:2thumb:,yeah if you saw the kidz you'ld realise the truth of that statement,Iknow at some stage we'll find Shaz her azzies and also her orange cem bastis,and one of those vivs is up and running,but the azzie viv needs to go where the tads are so .....well ya know:whistling2:
yeah also looking foward to frogday,there we go wishing our lives away, patience marcus it will come soon enough:2thumb:
thanks
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Heh, if Morgan gets his act together I'm having his old rack- which will free up loads of space. Of course, I'm not going to use the space for *any* more frogs...:whistling2:


I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a rather big IF in there Ron:whip:,more efficent use of space and no extra frogs,hmmm,i've missed something there:mf_dribble::lol2:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Hmmm yesterday we had our first potentially viable clutch of panama specials,just got to wait a few days now to see if they are fertile,we also had a nice group of Attachibakka eggs some mysties,superblues and i still haven't looked to see if what i think happened in the luec tank actually did:mf_dribble: so the mayhem continues. We are watching with interest how all these different tads develope its very apparent how similar all the tinc tribe seem to be and look even at this early stage,and how different the mysties are. incidentally another mystie has just left the water,it makes one realise how much the others have grown eventhough they are still so small to our eyes.We lost our first tad over a week old aswell,no idea why it was abig strong mystie, on the verge of popping back legs,mind you, on any level i don't think one should rear them all,nature doesn't work like that 
Anyway the main reason,I'm writing tonight is mainly this just thanks for all the kindwords the support bla bla bla,have a great chrimbo whatever your colour creed or belief it matters not to us
belucky ya'll,try not party too hard:mf_dribble:
Shaz and Stu


----------



## detail3r

Any photos of your tadpole setup Stu? Far too many pages to browse!

Cheers

Anthony


----------



## soundstounite

Think it might have been quicker for you to find them Ant:lol2:,like looking for a needle in a ruddy haystack,i guess you'll need some way of keeping the temps up too,mine are running just on room temp,pretty constant 72/74 at the mo.
here ya go








































and they are started in glasses like these sat in 3L tupperware partful of water to help stabilise the temps of small bodies of water in the glasses







.
In an ideal world i'd probably have them in the gizmo at about 3 weeks i guess,we like the idea of the glasses at first because of the ability to increase the water levels as the little guy gets stronger,in practice they go in there when there is a space.
Its been a great success so far Anthony,so damn easy to use tads comming out good big and strong and no losses in it whatsoever I have a uvb bulb over the top a 24watt Arcadia,which is open to debate,but works damn well for us,the tads can always get out of the light if they desire,i like the concept of self regulation with livestock,and no damn SLS thank god!! There are easier ways of builtding something like this Ant,but hell once built it works and seems to keep working,so was worth thee extra effort for us anway

for the terribilis is it mate?
Stu


----------



## detail3r

Cheers for the informative and helpful reply Stu.

Yes it's for the Terribilis (whenever they start producing fertile clutches that is:lol2

Regarding stable temperatures - My plan initially is a large RUB container, containing a body of water and being heating by an aquarium heater, to provide consistent temps of around 20 / 21C. Within this, i'll have individual deli cups of water for each tad, and intially will just do water changes - but eventually if it takes off, use the Fluval 205 canister filter with an inline heater for filtration.

Cheers one again Stu.

Anthony


----------



## soundstounite

detail3r said:


> Cheers for the informative and helpful reply Stu.
> 
> Yes it's for the Terribilis (whenever they start producing fertile clutches that is:lol2
> 
> Regarding stable temperatures - My plan initially is a large RUB container, containing a body of water and being heating by an aquarium heater, to provide consistent temps of around 20 / 21C. Within this, i'll have individual deli cups of water for each tad, and intially will just do water changes - but eventually if it takes off, use the Fluval 205 canister filter with an inline heater for filtration.
> 
> Cheers one again Stu.
> 
> Anthony


your welcome kiddo,mate don't you worry about those teribilis it won't belong before he gets his act together i bet:2thumb:. The plan sounds good mate.Use a turkey baster to do partial water changes,its a doddle mate,just suck out the pooh, oh and not too much grub at first.I know it has been slow for you mate,but it WILL come just be ready for when it does.
Its very early to tell yet but it looks like our first batch (proper) of specials might be fertile,looks very much like i can see mitosis. maybe some species just get it nailed straight away,Anthony, like auratus for example and others the slower to develope ie tincs terribilis are just damn slow about everything, I'm sure its out of our control though !
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

I put these pics up on the sales section ,but they should be here as well i guess as having got these to this stage ya'll ought to see them as you have seen each step of their development right from eggs,great stonkers they are now. We are really chuffed with how all the rearing has panned out with these being the first an'all. it kinda brings this all back full circle as these are now bigger than what their parents were when we bought them. Our first batch of superblue auratus:































































I Just wish i could really do justice to those colours with a camera,they will never be the same,i guess
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Ron Magpie said:


> Heh, if Morgan gets his act together I'm having his old rack- which will free up loads of space. Of course, I'm not going to use the space for *any* more frogs...:whistling2:


2 weeks.....ish :lol2:

I said it would be a while!


----------



## Ron Magpie

Morgan Freeman said:


> 2 weeks.....ish :lol2:
> 
> I said it would be a while!


Heh, that's cool- I'm broke now till payday anyway!


----------



## soundstounite

A properly crap day at work in my damn holiday, oh Stu the guy you look after has just had a heart attack,its real bad,ended with nah he'll be alright its not what we thought,thank god,and coming come knackered to absolute confirmation that the panama specials are 100% fertile,and the second clutch of 6 Attachibakkas are also good
COOOOOL:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ahh man we have both been laughing so much it hurts by two like minded hugely knowledgeable guys sloggin it out in interweb land basically over nothing,it will always amaze me how folks whom basically agree with each other can find a fight in stuff,one see's it far too often and :censor: me life is too short,forgive me but i can barely see to type because of the tears running down my face from laughing so hard.
what i was trying to say was happy new year to ya all,thanks for it all
love Shaz and moi
BRING IT ON


----------



## Malagasy

soundstounite said:


> I put these pics up on the sales section ,but they should be here as well i guess as having got these to this stage ya'll ought to see them as you have seen each step of their development right from eggs,great stonkers they are now. We are really chuffed with how all the rearing has panned out with these being the first an'all. it kinda brings this all back full circle as these are now bigger than what their parents were when we bought them. Our first batch of superblue auratus:
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> I Just wish i could really do justice to those colours with a camera,they will never be the same,i guess
> Stu


 They are beautiful!!! :flrt:


----------



## soundstounite

Malagasy said:


> They are beautiful!!! :flrt:


Thanks all they need now are some good homes to go to. Difficult to let go of them in away,as our first reared you can imagine there is a good degree of pride in them.I'd love to know what their eventual size will be,mum was out hunting when i half woke this morn and dad calling his head off,still trying to stop them to give the girls a rest
much thanks
happy new one
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

uk inspiration for a viv themed on a tropical rainforest,these were taken in a magical place we know,deep in the wolds I don't think i have ever seen moss grow on trees to the depth it does here or ever seen polyvulgare growing randomly almost epiphytically,a huge amount of environmental factors have produced this quirk of nature,we have walked this valley on almost the hottest day of the year and it was still cool and even on the windiest day,which as this is high up all around is turbulent but here one can hear a pin drop So these were taken when all is brown and slow on new years eve but those with some imagination will get where i'm coming from and why this little valley its memories and photos have meant so much to our vivs.













































pretty strange huh for england in the winter!!









note just how deep the moss is around 25 foot up































































Stu


----------



## frogman955

Ha you could be making a wee bit on the side selling all that moss Stu :2thumb:

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Ha you could be making a wee bit on the side selling all that moss Stu :2thumb:
> 
> Mike


Nah mate,this stays where it is,i take photos leaves footprints,folks i know give me bits a wood ferns etc,the usual recycling, someone's rubbish.
This place is for wondering.That said futhur up the valley all but the bigsticks are clearfell,probably good ol' coppice but it looks like a bomb went off,its sometimes disturbing to see how are woodlands have been shaped...are being shaped.Mike,where the moss photos are taken it is half a hand deep on some trees,ya know i haunted dartmoor as a big kid even with the wet down there i can't remember seeing this,lots a moss but not the depth man i'd love to know how long it takes and how temporary it is,wondefull mad place. 
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Tinctastic:mf_dribble:





















































and how to do woods init:lol2:








well once you add in the rest it is,we need another rack to stand them on:devil:
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

soundstounite said:


> Nah mate,this stays where it is,i take photos leaves footprints,folks i know give me bits a wood ferns etc,the usual recycling, someone's rubbish.
> This place is for wondering.That said futhur up the valley all but the bigsticks are clearfell,probably good ol' coppice but it looks like a bomb went off,its sometimes disturbing to see how are woodlands have been shaped...are being shaped.Mike,where the moss photos are taken it is half a hand deep on some trees,ya know i haunted dartmoor as a big kid even with the wet down there i can't remember seeing this,lots a moss but not the depth man i'd love to know how long it takes and how temporary it is,wondefull mad place.
> Stu


You'll remember Popehouse moor then? Best moor I've ever been to, I wont mention some of the plants I found growing there as a 16 year old obsessed with botany.

Ade


----------



## Sandsifter

soundstounite said:


> uk inspiration for a viv themed on a tropical rainforest,these were taken in a magical place we know,deep in the wolds I don't think i have ever seen moss grow on trees to the depth it does here or ever seen polyvulgare growing randomly almost epiphytically,a huge amount of environmental factors have produced this quirk of nature,we have walked this valley on almost the hottest day of the year and it was still cool and even on the windiest day,which as this is high up all around is turbulent but here one can hear a pin drop So these were taken when all is brown and slow on new years eve but those with some imagination will get where i'm coming from and why this little valley its memories and photos have meant so much to our vivs.
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> pretty strange huh for england in the winter!!
> image
> 
> note just how deep the moss is around 25 foot up
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> Stu


I've been lucky enough to go for a walk in forests in Australia, Nepal, Thailand, Malaysia, and India. None of them looked that weird.


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> You'll remember Popehouse moor then? Best moor I've ever been to, I wont mention some of the plants I found growing there as a 16 year old obsessed with botany.
> 
> Ade


Ade i have never heard of it,which is mad i grew up in Torbay,once i had my bike ashburton and the moor was 20mins,then i lived over at Tavistock on the otherside,where i worked in forrestry at Tavvy woodlands,ha mate we planted 65,000 ickle trees there,i must go back and see those woods we made lol,mate where is Popehouse? Even with my unfailing ability to forget stuff i have no recolection at all,normally there is something :bash:
Chris,its a mad place,its a shame it wasn't such a grey ol day,the pics would look so much better without that dull light
happy new one guys
Stu


----------



## Kuja

read entire thread  very impressive, enjoyed everybit of it :lol2: nice to see all the trouble of building as paid off  congratz!


----------



## soundstounite

Kuja said:


> read entire thread  very impressive, enjoyed everybit of it :lol2: nice to see all the trouble of building as paid off  congratz!


cheers,nice to speak to anew face,ya can't beat a good dose of madness and a stubborn streak
thanks loads
Stu


----------



## marcuswinner1

soundstounite said:


> Tinctastic:mf_dribble:
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> and how to do woods init:lol2:
> image
> well once you add in the rest it is,we need another rack to stand them on:devil:
> Stu


Thats a right collection of yellow Tincs mate. Very nice. Deffo someting I need to add to my collection at some point, will be watching to see when you have them all breeding:2thumb:.

On a seperate note mate, have you not sold any of those Superblues yet?

If so thats bonkers, really nice Frogs.


----------



## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> Thats a right collection of yellow Tincs mate. Very nice. Deffo someting I need to add to my collection at some point, will be watching to see when you have them all breeding:2thumb:.
> 
> On a seperate note mate, have you not sold any of those Superblues yet?
> 
> If so thats bonkers, really nice Frogs.


Hey mate,ya good? Thanks Marcus they have always appealed to us ,but if we don't get some blue ones this summer i think Shaz will shoot me:whistling2:,she is after a particular blue azzie, but don't ask me which exactly:lol2:,its somewhere in the middle i know that much. Kinda hoping that the machetos and citronella will breed later than sooner really Marcus,only because they might have more time for growing,and that is providing that they are both prs of course,one can never be totally sure i suppose until that fertile clutch is laid.

No takers for the blues at all so far mate,might be down to time of year, i'm not really sure.I think for the size they are priced fairly,if they were little 1-2cm froglets then i would have priced accordingly, but its real important to us that they are big strong and robust before they have to deal with the stress of anew home and travelling,its better for them and their new owners, we believe less risk all round,as they have so much more bodymass if they don't feed for a couple of days,due to stress. They are around 3-3.5cm SVL (snout to vent length) just whipped up and stuck a tape over the top of a couple,so pretty accurate,measurement,and all can see how they are cared for bla bla.
We are damn proud of them,we'll find homes for them mate
belucky dude
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

We are trying out a new type of filter.We use rain water,that is filtered with amongst other things carbon,this new filter is said to lock down the nasties and bind them so they can never be rereleased.One of the remarkable things about it is that it changes colour to show the presence of different substances
eg:
blue shows Cu salts
Blue green for ionic copper
Green /yellow for ammonia
orange for iron
Red for aluminium
black for heavy organics
yellow for lead
when the filter is used up and needs replacing it changes to dark brown black.
We thought it would be interesting to see what happens with just a glass of the filtered rainwater that we use








We are also trying it with a group of 4 auratus tads 2 have it 2 don't








and have also popped a bit in the gizmo,on the outflow to the filter








hopefully here is a link for others that might want to know more
https://www.arcadia-uk.info/product.php?pid=105&mid=12&lan=en&sub=&id=4
ruddy heck that might of worked:whistling2:
take care all
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Polyfilter has been around for years bud Polyfilter. 

Popehouse is a short distance from Winkleigh, not far from dartmoor. When I was about 16 we used to stop at this place Devon. Self catering eco lodges and holiday cottage in rural Devon when it was just a farm with a couple of lodges on it. There's some info about popehouse on there as well, including photos of the orchids there etc. You will quickly appreciate why I loved it there.

Ade


----------



## frogman955

Good old Polyfilters.
They`ve been around for years now and used by many in marine tank filters.
Polyfilter
It`s a cracking peice of kit for anyone filtering water.
If there is anything wrong with your water you`ll see it go darker and darker as the days go by.


Mike


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Polyfilter has been around for years bud Polyfilter.
> 
> Popehouse is a short distance from Winkleigh, not far from dartmoor. When I was about 16 we used to stop at this place Devon. Self catering eco lodges and holiday cottage in rural Devon when it was just a farm with a couple of lodges on it. There's some info about popehouse on there as well, including photos of the orchids there etc. You will quickly appreciate why I loved it there.
> 
> Ade


hey mate thanks for the links and heads up,ha yeah i utterly see why you loved it,so would i,,we never ventured much towards north devon really Ade,there was so much on the south coast and just inland for folks that like being outside,stunning part of the world often wish we still were down there,still feels like home to both of us,we miss the sea and the moors mate!!
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Good old Polyfilters.
> They`ve been around for years now and used by many in marine tank filters.
> Polyfilter
> It`s a cracking peice of kit for anyone filtering water.
> If there is anything wrong with your water you`ll see it go darker and darker as the days go by.
> 
> 
> Mike


Cheers mike,not having kept fish since probably before this stuff was about,its real interesting to me,i thought you guys would know more about it than i,i hadn't come across it before.So i thought it would be useful as if i haven't found something then there might just be others that haven't either in the phib world
cheers 
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Must have been a VERY long time ago you kept fish Stu, polyfilter has been around since at least 1997 I'd say. 

Odd thing though, I've never ever used it. Never needed to. I know some shrimpers though who used it after buying plants that had been treated with copper and didn't rinse them well enough... lol

Ade


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Hi guys,

The polybio polyfilter has a 30 year aquatic history and a patent in the aquatics market and Arcadia are now proud to be the sole agent of polybio products in Europe after the demise of underworld.

The terrarium polyfilter opens up a new use for what is one if the best water quality protection devises I have ever encountered. The terrarium polyfilter and the aquatic polyfilter are exactly the same retail price!!

As the media attracts and locks in toxins it should protect froglets as they enter fragile morphing phases.

It is worth remembering that carbon will remove some toxins, not all but it will release a % back into the water when saturated. The terrarium polyfilter will not! It will not remove foods or essential trace elements. 


Dealing with ammonia also makes it a "prevention is better than cure" product.

So good for turtles that are prone to irritation and infections of the eye and skin.


I'm looking forward to hearing what it has removed from stu's system!

First uk mainland member to post back what I wrote about in the current issue of PRK gets a free sample!


Good luck one and all!

John


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Must have been a VERY long time ago you kept fish Stu, polyfilter has been around since at least 1997 I'd say.
> 
> Odd thing though, I've never ever used it. Never needed to. I know some shrimpers though who used it after buying plants that had been treated with copper and didn't rinse them well enough... lol
> 
> Ade


I think from my bit of reading mate much longer than 97,i might be wrong,but one of the links said 76 so just atiny bit after my fish keeping days i think:bash: I reckon i was around 10-12 (not 100%) so 48 now one hell of atime,i went more to the phibs,but was real young.Ade i bred some dwarf gouramis i didn't have much ha money, or fish...... they, made a bubble nest,i got to watch the whole thing,so damn cool,i reared 52 ,went to the pet shop and the guy there gave me 50p each so £26,buddy i was bloody minted mum couldn't believe it either,it was a massive sum of money for alittle kid back then .I had an under gravel filter thing,with a couple of tubes linked to an air pump that caused suction into the gravel,well i think thats how it worked.Mate i remember the bubble nest the courtship them twirling round picking the eggs up in their mouths and spitting them in the nest and having some little plastic tank with slots on the base that they went in,maybe at first? ,but most of it i can't remember,but i remeber those little bits and how much money he gave us,but damned if i can remember how i reared them or what in:lol2:. But i was no proper fish keeper like you guys were.So getting this external fancy filter and all the intricacies of this stuff are totally new to me really.
Ade you'll have some rough idea,how often should i actually clean this filter out that is powering the gizmo, and what could be the potential problems when i do? I didn't really expect to have it running continuously,but it seems that as we try to slow one lot another morph/species start so its something i feel i should be thinking about,i have no visable problems at all and each tad comes out good and strong but i'd rather not wait for problems to occur
cheers
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> The polybio polyfilter has a 30 year aquatic history and a patent in the aquatics market and Arcadia are now proud to be the sole agent of polybio products in Europe after the demise of underworld.
> 
> The terrarium polyfilter opens up a new use for what is one if the best water quality protection devises I have ever encountered. The terrarium polyfilter and the aquatic polyfilter are exactly the same retail price!!
> 
> As the media attracts and locks in toxins it should protect froglets as they enter fragile morphing phases.
> 
> It is worth remembering that carbon will remove some toxins, not all but it will release a % back into the water when saturated. The terrarium polyfilter will not! It will not remove foods or essential trace elements.
> 
> 
> Dealing with ammonia also makes it a "prevention is better than cure" product.
> 
> So good for turtles that are prone to irritation and infections of the eye and skin.
> 
> 
> I'm looking forward to hearing what it has removed from stu's system!
> 
> First uk mainland member to post back what I wrote about in the current issue of PRK gets a free sample!
> 
> 
> Good luck one and all!
> 
> John


Hey John thanks for the info, tell me mate will it remove the tannins in my alder tad tea and do they have the potential to colour (stain) it ? I'm going to set up another glass i think tomorrow to monitor this aswell,as its something i hadn't thought of untill earlier today.
Happy new year mate
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Really easy Stu, when the flow starts to decrease too much, give the floss a rinse. Once every 6 months or so give the sponges a rinse in system water. That's it bud, power filters are way simpler to maintain than the old undergravel ever was (been there, done that, had to suck out the tons of mulm from underneath. lol). So long as you don't rinse anything except floss under the tap then should be no problems. Rinse your sponges under the tap though and you will kill any filtration bacteria that inhabit them, and reduce the effectiveness of the filter to remove nitrogeouns wastes.

Cheers for the info John, a sad moment that Underworld have gone south. Have you guys picked up the microjet stuff as well?  I swear by those pumps for waterfalls etc, there's none better.

Ade


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Yes we have all the newa and aquarium systems products also. And we made them cheaper!

John




Wolfenrook said:


> Really easy Stu, when the flow starts to decrease too much, give the floss a rinse. Once every 6 months or so give the sponges a rinse in system water. That's it bud, power filters are way simpler to maintain than the old undergravel ever was (been there, done that, had to suck out the tons of mulm from underneath. lol). So long as you don't rinse anything except floss under the tap then should be no problems. Rinse your sponges under the tap though and you will kill any filtration bacteria that inhabit them, and reduce the effectiveness of the filter to remove nitrogeouns wastes.
> 
> Cheers for the info John, a sad moment that Underworld have gone south. Have you guys picked up the microjet stuff as well? I swear by those pumps for waterfalls etc, there's none better.
> 
> Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Really easy Stu, when the flow starts to decrease too much, give the floss a rinse. Once every 6 months or so give the sponges a rinse in system water. That's it bud, power filters are way simpler to maintain than the old undergravel ever was (been there, done that, had to suck out the tons of mulm from underneath. lol). So long as you don't rinse anything except floss under the tap then should be no problems. Rinse your sponges under the tap though and you will kill any filtration bacteria that inhabit them, and reduce the effectiveness of the filter to remove nitrogeouns wastes.
> 
> Cheers for the info John, a sad moment that Underworld have gone south. Have you guys picked up the microjet stuff as well? I swear by those pumps for waterfalls etc, there's none better.
> 
> Ade


brilliant mate thanks lots,i was worried about the consequences of possibly killing all the beneficial bacteria
cheers
Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Ade is correct, the Arcadia terrarium polyfilter will not remove trace elements or food sources and it will certainly not destroy beneficial bacteria.

I have just received an explanation of how it is made and how it works........I just have to translate into an understandable manner now!!

Any one up for the free sample as per my precious post???

John


----------



## Wolfenrook

Arcadiajohn said:


> Ade is correct, the Arcadia terrarium polyfilter will not remove trace elements or food sources and it will certainly not destroy beneficial bacteria.
> 
> I have just received an explanation of how it is made and how it works........I just have to translate into an understandable manner now!!
> 
> Any one up for the free sample as per my precious post???
> 
> John


Guessing you wrote the bit about the Laos warty newt? Only thing in there with no name on it, and has the Arcadia Light for Life logo on it. :lol2:

Ade


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Sorry ade, read again!

I'll give a clue, one of my usual spots!

John




Wolfenrook said:


> Guessing you wrote the bit about the Laos warty newt? Only thing in there with no name on it, and has the Arcadia Light for Life logo on it. :lol2:
> 
> Ade


----------



## Wolfenrook

You want me to actually read the magazine? Gah, I'd rather just buy some. lmfao

I skimmed it, and saw more of the same garbage I saw in previous issues I read.

Ade


----------



## detail3r

PRK does seem to metion Arcadia products more then an unbiased magazine should. I'll stick with TMC 

Stu - Your progress with all your frogs is amazing, a real credit to your hard work, passion and dedication to the cause.


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> You want me to actually read the magazine? Gah, I'd rather just buy some. lmfao
> 
> I skimmed it, and saw more of the same garbage I saw in previous issues I read.
> 
> Ade


Ade your a cruel man:lol2:,oh hell john just send him some polyfilter its new year,and he's at least tried also laughing so much i can't type well now :2thumb:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

detail3r said:


> PRK does seem to metion Arcadia products more then an unbiased magazine should. I'll stick with TMC
> 
> Stu - Your progress with all your frogs is amazing, a real credit to your hard work, passion and dedication to the cause.


Seen as i haven't, to my shame, got the last PRK i'll have to abstain from the first bit, Ant,
the second bit,is shockingly kind mate,as always its much easier when you have 2 sets of eyes 2 sets of hands doing the do,by way of thanks 'cause its way better than listing to me harping on...... these pics mate are for you,i'll add that i think some of the very best mystie pics we have taken are in this lot, but first:lol2:
"Shut up we are not FAT,just big boned and i love him"








ok Anthony this is what happens when 2 beginner frog keepers give in to the pleading,and chuck just afew ff's in because there are 4 little noses pressed up against the glass watching everyone else get dinner,and these really ....for their own good, shouldn't have anything,(we so want them to rest now mate)
so just to be sure no one came out to see us i chucked a few ff's on their bit of wood in the middle of the viv





























































































































thanks kiddo enjoy
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Thank you Stu, I have even less choice now but to set my wife a mystie viv up... Sigh, oh such a hard life. lol

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Thank you Stu, I have even less choice now but to set my wife a mystie viv up... Sigh, oh such a hard life. lol
> 
> Ade


Mate they come to the glass and sometimes actually put their little front feet up on the door its awful,you can see then watching you go round the damn room.

Mate there is a very important lesson here,this was driven home to me the other day,when Mike(frogman) was told by his good lady that he must build another viv so he wouldn't ruin that lovely bit of wood he had bought,by cutting it to size..... our ladies know way more about this stuff than we,its our job to just keep making more vivs,oh and occassionally buy bits of wood that don't fit or post nice pics to help each other out,its all we guys can do really:bash::whistling2:

:no1:
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

You forget the importance of reading dart frog books and magazines whilst in bed next to her. 

Ade


----------



## frogman955

Haha listen to you two, Stu and Ade.
My logic is that I buy the wood that she specifically wanted.
Because I had already set out what I was doing with the viv there wasn`t any space for "her" branch.
She wouldn`t let me cut it down, so.
The answer was ?
Buy another viv the same size so we can have a matching pair either side of the tv. (her suggestion) :flrt:
It saved me having to suggest it or even grovel to her for permission.
I bought some books at a meet a while back and place them beside her and leave her to read them and let her sow her own seeds.
And now and again I shout on her to come and look at things like some Super Blue froglets for sale on here which just helps to fuel that fire.
There`s only one thing more devious than a woman.
A man who can out think them :2thumb:

Mike


----------



## Sandsifter

soundstounite said:


> Hey John thanks for the info, tell me mate will it remove the tannins in my alder tad tea and do they have the potential to colour (stain) it ? I'm going to set up another glass i think tomorrow to monitor this aswell,as its something i hadn't thought of untill earlier today.
> Happy new year mate
> Stu



Yes it will Stu.

Love Polyfilters and sad to see the demise of Underworld, who used to distribute these products. The Polyfilter has been about since at least the late 1970's, and imhe is a brilliant tool for certain situations; like accidentally overdosing some chemical/Med, trying to figure out what's going on when you have problems the usual test kits are not giving you info on, etc. 

Polyfilter imho is A&E kit - every keeper of aquatic animals would be well served by having one in the first aid box.

As a routine maintenance tool they are a very expensive way of replacing biological filtration. 

Guessing now, but they may remove growth inhibitors which is a plus.

Guessing very little now; they will remove tannins which may or may not be an issue depending on your belief in tannins, but seems a bit daft to pay one company for tannins to improve tad survival, then pay another to remove that product..

Whatever the truth of the marketing rollarcoaster, im well happy the Polyfilter is still in the shops :2thumb:

Chris


----------



## Wolfenrook

frogman955 said:


> Haha listen to you two, Stu and Ade.
> My logic is that I buy the wood that she specifically wanted.
> Because I had already set out what I was doing with the viv there wasn`t any space for "her" branch.
> She wouldn`t let me cut it down, so.
> The answer was ?
> Buy another viv the same size so we can have a matching pair either side of the tv. (her suggestion) :flrt:
> It saved me having to suggest it or even grovel to her for permission.
> I bought some books at a meet a while back and place them beside her and leave her to read them and let her sow her own seeds.
> And now and again I shout on her to come and look at things like some Super Blue froglets for sale on here which just helps to fuel that fire.
> There`s only one thing more devious than a woman.
> A man who can out think them :2thumb:
> 
> Mike


Except now we can't use this thread to tempt them any more, as they'll read this. :lol2:

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> Yes it will Stu.
> 
> Love Polyfilters and sad to see the demise of Underworld, who used to distribute these products. The Polyfilter has been about since at least the late 1970's, and imhe is a brilliant tool for certain situations; like accidentally overdosing some chemical/Med, trying to figure out what's going on when you have problems the usual test kits are not giving you info on, etc.
> 
> Polyfilter imho is A&E kit - every keeper of aquatic animals would be well served by having one in the first aid box.
> 
> As a routine maintenance tool they are a very expensive way of replacing biological filtration.
> 
> Guessing now, but they may remove growth inhibitors which is a plus.
> 
> Guessing very little now; they will remove tannins which may or may not be an issue depending on your belief in tannins, but seems a bit daft to pay one company for tannins to improve tad survival, then pay another to remove that product..
> 
> Whatever the truth of the marketing rollarcoaster, im well happy the Polyfilter is still in the shops :2thumb:
> 
> Chris


yeah tis all good Chris,it will be interesting to see where all our little tests lead,i have set up another little glass with our Aldercone tea in. Oh mate we don't pay for the aldercone:gasp:,but it works it seems,since that episode where i took the tannins out of the equation and had the mouth rot we have not seen it,the mouth rot, once not one single case and we have had a couple or 3 kids come through since then to be sure,plus, more species,have joined, in including more very first tads which are meant to be the weakest.So my vote is use those tannins,in whichever form one prefers,and rear darts:mf_dribble:
I have made it abundantly clear that we don't have you guys knowledge of water,so its great to have Ade yourself Mike and John all chucking in little bits of info up thanks guys,it will help not only moi but other folks like me.
Interesting little bit Chris about the growth inhibitors,with the gizmo we are seeing no issues,and the filter is as standard,so there should be nothing in it to pull these out (educate me if i'm wrong guys),well until now.I'm starting to wonder if this is an urban myth,or maybe there is a mechanism that only acts in small bodies of water when competition is extreme and food short,ie under duress these are excreted. Logically, for the species, if the food is there then why inhibit each other,this should happen when only one tad can make it because of conditions being hard, one would think. 
cheers for the imput guys
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Except now we can't use this thread to tempt them any more, as they'll read this. :lol2:
> 
> Ade


Ahh man,thats clobbered it:lol2::lol2::lol2:
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

It's only temporary Stu, we'll soon be on another page, with lots more pics of those cute mysties. :2thumb:

Regarding growth inhibitors, I wont say they are a myth, for the simple reason that maybe just maybe they're either a) not hormones but something that runs out and b) I don't have the lab to test for certain. What I will say is, I have a filtered tadpole system too, with a large external filter complete with UV and slow flow so it acts as a steriliser. My Regina tads aren't tads any more, they're froglets with tails, and HUGE when compared to the size of the adults. That's why I suspect it either something getting used up from water that's limiting growth for people (seen the same with fish with important electrolytes and salts) or if it is a hormone then the large volumes of water in tad systems are seriously diluting it (including the water in my filter, there's over 30 litres in mine). My young Regina are certainly showing no signs of stunting etc. I'll also mention that mum and dad came from different breeders (via Dartfrog) so are probably pretty much unrelated, which could also be a factor in how large these young ones are.

Regarding polyfilters, I personally have never had a need to use one. However like many others I am well aware and recognise just how helpful they can be. I don't even use activated carbon (in filters anyway, used it a few times in substrates. lol), and have a tub of purigen I bought nearly 2 years ago still sat unopened. Like I said though, I know plenty of people who have used them to combat copper problems in shrimp tanks where they've added new plants without enough rinsing (easily done, as my rinsing methods takes hours and hours. lol) and it HAS managed to save shrimp lives combined with water changes, that would have been doomed without. I also know folks who use it to filter rain water in order to make sure there's no nasty in it.

It's public knowledge I'm not an Arcadia fan boy (or a fan boy of any brand name), but they have done the hobbyist world a big favour picking up after Underworld, and themselves into the bargain as much of the stuff they now distribute are big sellers, like microjet pumps, visitherm heaters etc. :2thumb:

Ade


----------



## frogman955

Wolfenrook said:


> Except now we can't use this thread to tempt them any more, as they'll read this. :lol2:
> 
> Ade


Sorry guys for spilling the beans on what we are up to.
On the plus side I told Julia what I wrote and we both had a damn good laugh at it.
Even better though.
She is still talking about another large viv :2thumb:
Now I have to justify it to myself :whistling2:

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> It's only temporary Stu, we'll soon be on another page, with lots more pics of those cute mysties. :2thumb:
> 
> Regarding growth inhibitors, I wont say they are a myth, for the simple reason that maybe just maybe they're either a) not hormones but something that runs out and b) I don't have the lab to test for certain. What I will say is, I have a filtered tadpole system too, with a large external filter complete with UV and slow flow so it acts as a steriliser. My Regina tads aren't tads any more, they're froglets with tails, and HUGE when compared to the size of the adults. That's why I suspect it either something getting used up from water that's limiting growth for people (seen the same with fish with important electrolytes and salts) or if it is a hormone then the large volumes of water in tad systems are seriously diluting it (including the water in my filter, there's over 30 litres in mine). My young Regina are certainly showing no signs of stunting etc. I'll also mention that mum and dad came from different breeders (via Dartfrog) so are probably pretty much unrelated, which could also be a factor in how large these young ones are.
> 
> Regarding polyfilters, I personally have never had a need to use one. However like many others I am well aware and recognise just how helpful they can be. I don't even use activated carbon (in filters anyway, used it a few times in substrates. lol), and have a tub of purigen I bought nearly 2 years ago still sat unopened. Like I said though, I know plenty of people who have used them to combat copper problems in shrimp tanks where they've added new plants without enough rinsing (easily done, as my rinsing methods takes hours and hours. lol) and it HAS managed to save shrimp lives combined with water changes, that would have been doomed without. I also know folks who use it to filter rain water in order to make sure there's no nasty in it.
> 
> It's public knowledge I'm not an Arcadia fan boy (or a fan boy of any brand name), but they have done the hobbyist world a big favour picking up after Underworld, and themselves into the bargain as much of the stuff they now distribute are big sellers, like microjet pumps, visitherm heaters etc. :2thumb:
> 
> Ade


yeah it don't take long to turn apage here:lol2:
First up with good luck with the morphout,and the first week and ahalf mate,so far once that little tummy swells i relax hope it goes well for you.
Also the gizmo is running hellish close to 30L and no issues there may well be something in what you say,with volume as above i would be hugely surprised if there wasn't some competitive element to the growth inhibitors rearing there heads,i must see if i can find out more on this.The electrolyte theory is agood un very much ties in although kinda looking at it from another angle,very interesting,i hadn't thought of it like that,cheers for that.
Yeah this polyfilter has really grabbed me because i see it as a really useful tool especially with us using rainwater,regardless of how good things are going its always worth looking for ways of improving and there will always be intangibles....variables with rainwater,that this could potentially eliminate.We are nearly a year in now have only used this one source of water,but this will help a layman like me know when the filter needs changing ,and potentially tell me if something nasty has come in. I've come across one link between sls and carbon filters,if i remember correctly phosphate levels after the filter had become saturated.
Again as a layman finding the bits of lead wrapped around the elodea i bought filled me with horror,i realise lead oxidses but even so i cut all the bits that were in contact and chucked en and then washed the plants soaked the plants for ages,tell me mate what is the Cu used for in aquarium plants?

I'm glad too that arcadia have got hold of this new(ok old:lol2): stuff it seems like it already had a good following with the fish guys and now folks like me might benefit from it too.

Stu


----------



## ipreferaflan

I can't believe this thread is still going! It's incredible to see how it all is now!

Forever jealous of your E. mysteriosus, Stu. GIVE ME SOME.


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Sorry guys for spilling the beans on what we are up to.
> On the plus side I told Julia what I wrote and we both had a damn good laugh at it.
> Even better though.
> She is still talking about another large viv :2thumb:
> Now I have to justify it to myself :whistling2:
> 
> Mike


ha mike i think all 3 of our better halves have been laughing about all this,all good:2thumb:
ere i nearly forgot:gasp:
i can see attachi eggs,i knew they were comming,mate its so cool how she starts all the stroking and cuddlin' it started yesterday morning with avengance
and a little ok a big little tad came out of the eggs this morning from the eggs laid just before chrimbo,funny seeing that one against the mysties that are also hatching
seeya
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Nice one Stu on the new eggs.
Your going to have to start a new thread now.
"How to cope with being overrun with eggs and froglets" :2thumb:

Oh I forgot.
I found a couple of eggs 3 days ago which have just hatched.
The Leucs just don`t know when to have a rest lol

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

ipreferaflan said:


> I can't believe this thread is still going! It's incredible to see how it all is now!
> 
> Forever jealous of your E. mysteriosus, Stu. GIVE ME SOME.


hey dude,wow your alive,see what happens,when an old bugger gets his teeth into something:whistling2:,CAN'T get back in the queue :Na_Na_Na_Na:
See i haven't yet learnt how to start another thread,ok why would I?
tell ya what Harvey by the time these mysties actually morph you'll be as old as me
thanks for saying hi dude long time no speak
cheers
Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Hi stu,

You have such a good thing going on there! Let's see if you can be first UK "farmer" of dendros. The trade needs all the help it can get. Plus it would help off set some of the WC that still goes on. Mantellas next?

For me the reason I thought about polyfilter and morphing tubs was to help protect against some of the invisible things that we don't even think about. Like airbourne pesticides that could end up in the water. Polyfilter will remove them. So if by chance cu or fe ends up in the system from plants or undetected in rainwater you have something silently protecting the system.

For me the transition from tad to froglets must be one of the most sensitive times in a frog life. Man made poision that they are not designed by nature to encounter may have an adverse effect. 

So prevention is better than cure.

Checking with the manufacturers of the pad they assure me that it won't remove useful trace elements or food sources so your culture should be unaffected. Please keep me informed though!!!

I have just been passed a written explanation of How the Americans make the filter. So I just need to translate it into words we can all understand and we will publish the process for interests sake. It's very complicated!

All the best

John 




soundstounite said:


> yeah it don't take long to turn apage here:lol2:
> First up with good luck with the morphout,and the first week and ahalf mate,so far once that little tummy swells i relax hope it goes well for you.
> Also the gizmo is running hellish close to 30L and no issues there may well be something in what you say,with volume as above i would be hugely surprised if there wasn't some competitive element to the growth inhibitors rearing there heads,i must see if i can find out more on this.The electrolyte theory is agood un very much ties in although kinda looking at it from another angle,very interesting,i hadn't thought of it like that,cheers for that.
> Yeah this polyfilter has really grabbed me because i see it as a really useful tool especially with us using rainwater,regardless of how good things are going its always worth looking for ways of improving and there will always be intangibles....variables with rainwater,that this could potentially eliminate.We are nearly a year in now have only used this one source of water,but this will help a layman like me know when the filter needs changing ,and potentially tell me if something nasty has come in. I've come across one link between sls and carbon filters,if i remember correctly phosphate levels after the filter had become saturated.
> Again as a layman finding the bits of lead wrapped around the elodea i bought filled me with horror,i realise lead oxidses but even so i cut all the bits that were in contact and chucked en and then washed the plants soaked the plants for ages,tell me mate what is the Cu used for in aquarium plants?
> 
> I'm glad too that arcadia have got hold of this new(ok old:lol2): stuff it seems like it already had a good following with the fish guys and now folks like me might benefit from it too.
> 
> Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

He Stu, John listened to you, got a surprise in the post, an 8x4" Polyfilter. lol Thanks John.

You'r reference to pesticides makes me wish I'd had some back in my freshwater shrimp keeping days. I lost shrimp a couple of times thanks to my wife using fly spray in the same room as my tanks.... I lost some brand new ones once as she'd used fly spray in the room where I stored the bowl I used to acclimatise new shrimp in too.... A total nightmare! Relevant to frogs in case anybodies relatives use anything around their tadpole system that they shouldn't....

Ade


----------



## Sandsifter

soundstounite said:


> Interesting little bit Chris about the growth inhibitors,with the gizmo we are seeing no issues,and the filter is as standard,so there should be nothing in it to pull these out (educate me if i'm wrong guys),well until now.I'm starting to wonder if this is an urban myth,or maybe there is a mechanism that only acts in small bodies of water when competition is extreme and food short,ie under duress these are excreted. Logically, for the species, if the food is there then why inhibit each other,this should happen when only one tad can make it because of conditions being hard, one would think.
> cheers for the imput guys
> Stu


I like cheap and old fashioned Stu. Why worry about growth inhibitors, the latest claims of products X,Y, or Z, trying to match small water holes frogs are forced to use, when having a simple big volume of water makes them an irrelevance?

Chris


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> He Stu, John listened to you, got a surprise in the post, an 8x4" Polyfilter. lol Thanks John.
> 
> You'r reference to pesticides makes me wish I'd had some back in my freshwater shrimp keeping days. I lost shrimp a couple of times thanks to my wife using fly spray in the same room as my tanks.... I lost some brand new ones once as she'd used fly spray in the room where I stored the bowl I used to acclimatise new shrimp in too.... A total nightmare! Relevant to frogs in case anybodies relatives use anything around their tadpole system that they shouldn't....
> 
> Ade


ha good stuff,well deserved for making me laugh i reckon,and it was the best attempt,ok the only one:lol2:
Second bit of the post is a good one to air Ade,not everyone will realise about these dangers
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Hi stu,
> 
> You have such a good thing going on there! Let's see if you can be first UK "farmer" of dendros. The trade needs all the help it can get. Plus it would help off set some of the WC that still goes on. Mantellas next?
> 
> For me the reason I thought about polyfilter and morphing tubs was to help protect against some of the invisible things that we don't even think about. Like airbourne pesticides that could end up in the water. Polyfilter will remove them. So if by chance cu or fe ends up in the system from plants or undetected in rainwater you have something silently protecting the system.
> 
> For me the transition from tad to froglets must be one of the most sensitive times in a frog life. Man made poision that they are not designed by nature to encounter may have an adverse effect.
> 
> So prevention is better than cure.
> 
> Checking with the manufacturers of the pad they assure me that it won't remove useful trace elements or food sources so your culture should be unaffected. Please keep me informed though!!!
> 
> I have just been passed a written explanation of How the Americans make the filter. So I just need to translate it into words we can all understand and we will publish the process for interests sake. It's very complicated!
> 
> All the best
> 
> John


Hey John,ha that would be a dream to do this as a job,but i'd be amazed if there is a big enough market there to support a specialist breeder,here in the uk.things would have to be on a pretty big scale.Its great that darts seem to have the capacity to breed well in captivity,as you say the more captive bred the better in my view. It strange in away that a frog that definitely requires some good research before keeping can be so prolific,in some genii. would be nice to get all this to a stage that the british hobby could be envolved in consevation buying bits of land employing locals to safe guard it like the dutch have done,although that is along way off and probably a complete pipe dream its still a cool goal to strive for.
We are pretty sure that we will stay with the S. American frogs John, there are so many we would love to look out for,many many more than we could keep in our humble set up at present,but we do have possible options to expand over time.But,all will be slow and measured tis agood way to work,for us anyway,we are both warey of running before we walk,although not getting alot of choice other than running at the mo. and loving it.
We await the Stu friendly version:lol2: of the technicalities of polyfilter with anticipation mate:2thumb:
The biggy for me John with the polyfilter is my use of rainwater and the security of knowing its being cleaned up without the worry of saturated carbon,
take care buddy
Stu


----------



## gnollhouse

wow that is a fab room setup, maybe in a few years i could look at something like that, only just starting out with tree frogs with the view to move on to poison dart soon


----------



## soundstounite

gnollhouse said:


> wow that is a fab room setup, maybe in a few years i could look at something like that, only just starting out with tree frogs with the view to move on to poison dart soon


another new face:welcome:,I kept tree frogs as a kid,love em,I don't think that darts should be considered a move up really,each animal deserves as much research as your brain can take,i guess. What's significant about darts more than anything else is the need to really know how to produce small grub in quantity for them. I'm of the veiw that each phib deserves the same thought on to its housing requirements humidity temps etc. maybe one has to commit a bit more to darts because of the food aspect,ie the culturing.But with the ent viv design to build on which just works these are not difficult frogs to keep,i'm in no way saying they are easy but not difficult,its all about getting down and dirty and putting in the graft.There are for sure some species that are more tricky and probably are best left until one has gained some experiance but there is no way you should be put off.
One just has to do the homework.
thanks for the words about the room
Stu


----------



## gnollhouse

your welcome and thank you, i will have a go at dart frogs just need to do loads more reading on here first to make sure i know what im doing first, got to love google for answers


----------



## soundstounite

Sandsifter said:


> I like cheap and old fashioned Stu. Why worry about growth inhibitors, the latest claims of products X,Y, or Z, trying to match small water holes frogs are forced to use, when having a simple big volume of water makes them an irrelevance?
> 
> Chris


ha i'll go one better Chris i like free and old fashioned,nah mate i don't worry about the growth inhibitors at all,i still need those small bodies of water for the little guys mate,but there, the kids are separate, so an irrelevance,later once they have a bit of go in them,then with you..... big volume of water,i keep them separate,others don't,tis very likely that if they have enough animal protein in their diet they wont even munch on each other.But i'm sure that won't happen as we use these boxes. Chris,i'm still working with easier species,so can always come unstuck but so far, apart from that once no worries,and we are not talking 5or10- tads mate, that i'm basing this on now,numbers have been hard core for a long long time now,losses are seriously low,almost too low.But with good grub to parents we have strong eggs i guess and it all follows from there.I'm well chuffed with the method pretty much all of it is way beyond my expectations,that old stockman's approach of nailing the simple stuff being totally onit and diligent,staying there till the job is right,never walking away 'cause i'm knackered, pays ya back mate.
Tis all good so far,when its not,you know i'll shout,can't be doing with other folks making the same cock up that i make,always room to be better though,ha bring it on:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

gnollhouse said:


> your welcome and thank you, i will have a go at dart frogs just need to do loads more reading on here first to make sure i know what im doing first, got to love google for answers


Buddy check out a couple of yank sites dendroboard.com,busy and dartden.com
friendly and knowledgeable though smaller. Use the ent design for your vivs it rocks the americans call 'em euro vivs and hell enjoy the learning,its a good part of dart keeping and a good part of the fun,if i can still do this in ten years time that will be the one constant,....still be learning
all the luck mate,oh and i need your name :2thumb:
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

I was just using my fishkeeper/frogkeeper brain Stu, and twigged to something. You know our tadpole systems? Well when they come down to it they are little cups of water with a BIG refugium attached, in effect. Refugiums have been used for many many years in fishkeeping to allow the display part of an aquarium to contain more stock etc, with less impact on the stock from overcrowding. Seems to me tad systems are doing the same thing. As far as the frogs are concerned, they're in a small body of water, where in reality they're in a good 30 litres or so. 

As to the whole growth inhibitors thing, I still reckon there's more going on than it just been hormones. It could even be something as stupidly simple as competition for food. I certainly see no evidence of hormonal growth inhibitors in my tadpole system, and the filtration there there is good old fashioned natural style, ie. mechanical and biological filtration. I don't even have carbon in there (would remove those lovely tannins anyway). I think I already said though, I've seen growth inhibiting in aquariums before now, mainly with guppies and platies. Basically because they became overcrowded. I think you will agree with me Stu here, that quite often the correct answer is the simplest one. Until I see research based evidence to the contrary, I am going to continue to suspect that it's more likely to be factors such as competition for food and reduction in things like electrolyte and salts levels than it is to be some mystery hormone. Seen lots of posts going on about these growth inhibiting hormones, not one naming it or showing any genuine scienfitic evidence beyond "my mate tried it, and got stunted frogs". I'm not saying that they don't exist, maybe it's only in certain frogs, I'm just saying that without proof I prefer simpler explanations.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> I was just using my fishkeeper/frogkeeper brain Stu, and twigged to something. You know our tadpole systems? Well when they come down to it they are little cups of water with a BIG refugium attached, in effect. Refugiums have been used for many many years in fishkeeping to allow the display part of an aquarium to contain more stock etc, with less impact on the stock from overcrowding. Seems to me tad systems are doing the same thing. As far as the frogs are concerned, they're in a small body of water, where in reality they're in a good 30 litres or so.
> 
> As to the whole growth inhibitors thing, I still reckon there's more going on than it just been hormones. It could even be something as stupidly simple as competition for food. I certainly see no evidence of hormonal growth inhibitors in my tadpole system, and the filtration there there is good old fashioned natural style, ie. mechanical and biological filtration. I don't even have carbon in there (would remove those lovely tannins anyway). I think I already said though, I've seen growth inhibiting in aquariums before now, mainly with guppies and platies. Basically because they became overcrowded. I think you will agree with me Stu here, that quite often the correct answer is the simplest one. Until I see research based evidence to the contrary, I am going to continue to suspect that it's more likely to be factors such as competition for food and reduction in things like electrolyte and salts levels than it is to be some mystery hormone. Seen lots of posts going on about these growth inhibiting hormones, not one naming it or showing any genuine scienfitic evidence beyond "my mate tried it, and got stunted frogs". I'm not saying that they don't exist, maybe it's only in certain frogs, I'm just saying that without proof I prefer simpler explanations.
> 
> Ade


Ade educate me what do you mean exactly by refugium,i'd rather be sure than thinking i understood!!
Second part.i'm with you 100% never seen factual proof can't remember ever being given other than anecdotal evidence.My little bit of hands on is showing no evidence of it whatsoever as with yourself,and other folks we both know such as frognick and Richie,whom all use similar set ups.
I can see there being a mechanism by which,survival,could be limited,to the "biggest and strongest",If there is anyone who could pull a science paper out of the bag, it would be Ed on dendroboard,i'll ask it would be interesting,to know if anyone has really studied this
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Well, in it's most basic form, a refugium is just a second tank attached to the main one, so sharing the water. Often sumps are a form of refugium. So if you had say a 60 gallon tank, you could only stock it with as many fish as a 60 gallon tank could support. Connect a second 60 gallon tank though and you have 120 gallons of water, allowing higher stocking and buffering more against changes. I believe they have been used as well to house small delicate species away from the main tank, whilst still sharing the water and filtration etc.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Well, in it's most basic form, a refugium is just a second tank attached to the main one, so sharing the water. Often sumps are a form of refugium. So if you had say a 60 gallon tank, you could only stock it with as many fish as a 60 gallon tank could support. Connect a second 60 gallon tank though and you have 120 gallons of water, allowing higher stocking and buffering more against changes. I believe they have been used as well to house small delicate species away from the main tank, whilst still sharing the water and filtration etc.
> 
> Ade


Cool thanks for the time mate,i did have it right but nice to be sure and the question has been asked too i'll post......LMFAO well i'll try to post any links if i get a reply
cheers dude
Stu


----------



## richie.b

Stu if you want to see how this growth hormone affect works get yourself a lump of frogspawn in spring and put it in a 2ft tank as the tadpoles hatch and start to grow you will notice a few of them will suddenly become thinner and weaker and stay on the bottom until they just die and get eaten by the others, this goes on as the tadpoles grow until only the strongest survive. You might start out with 200 tadpoles but end up with 30-40 left that morph. I believe its just natures way of making sure the strongest survive. If you add a refugium or sump tank like Ade mentioned it wont happen so much because allthough the tads are not actually swimming in the other tank they know they have twice as much water if you understand. 
Ive never seen it happen in any of the tadpole systems ive used simply because i dont think theres too many tads in them.
As for the polyfilter these are an amazing piece of kit i know lots of people that use them on marine tanks instead of protien skimmers with great success but for me i wouldnt use them on my tadpole system simply because i think they take out to much out of the water. You have had an excellent year breeding Stu and havent had nearly half the problems a lot of people get so youre obviously doing something right and i always say if it isnt broke dont fix it. Plus i think things can become over complicated if you start trying to do to much. I found a way that works for me and apart from using slightly a different tadpole system i still do it the same as i always have 

Richie


----------



## Wolfenrook

You guys might find this interesting JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie. It's at least research into a frog species even if it's not dart frogs. Seems to suggest the growth problems are more likely caused by "density stress" rather than hormones.

That's all I am trying to say, that when I search for papers related to growth inhibition in tadpoles I can't find anything talking about hormones, but did find that discussing how it could well be the stress of been in too dense a population. Your' example is a good one Richie, but could also be explained by this, competition for food or even important electrolytes getting used up etc. Like I said though, I'm not arguing these hormones don't exist, just that I can't find any real research into it, the only references I find to it are on forums like this one. I don't know for fact though it doesn't exist, and for me end of the day so long as things work, I keep doing them. 

On the topic of the polyfilter, I plan to keep mine for 'emergency use'. I DID buy tadpole tea, and have oak leaves in the system as well, so using a polyfilter constantly would be counter intuitive. It will be very handy though if something goes wrong. At the moment though my tadpoles are doing ok, so as you say Richie I don't want to try to fix something that's working. Heck, my 5 Regina younguns are out of water now and in a grow out viv. 

Ade


----------



## frogman955

richie.b said:


> You have had an excellent year breeding Stu and havent had nearly half the problems a lot of people get so youre obviously doing something right and i always say if it isnt broke dont fix it. Plus i think things can become over complicated if you start trying to do to much.
> 
> Richie


I think Richie has summed it up rather nicely there.
It`s all an interesting subject, but somehow I can`t see answers coming along any time soon.
So thats why I think Richie`s comment is right.
When I was rearing Anthonyi`s I saw no difference in size etc whether I had 10 or 100 tadpoles in a gallon of water.
Yes it`s a different morph, but again how do we know if thats got anything to do with it.
Some people rear their Leucs etc in communal tanks with no problem and there`s been to my knowledge no reports of any runts or other problems as long as they have plenty of food to help eliminate cannibalism.

Mike


----------



## Wolfenrook

Absolutely Mike. Whatever the reason, we've all found a way to rear healthy young frogs, and THAT is what matters. I'm just chatting about it because I'm interested, it wont have any effect on my methods (adopted upon Richie's advice actually. lol) whether there's a hormone, stress, competition or whatever. It's a good method and that's what counts. 

Ade


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Hi stu, your inbox is full!

Can you check and see if my reply to your Pm has arrived

Thanks

John


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Hi stu, your inbox is full!
> 
> Can you check and see if my reply to your Pm has arrived
> 
> Thanks
> 
> John


Yup just clocked it John and yes its with me thanks mate have replied already
cheers
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Stu if you want to see how this growth hormone affect works get yourself a lump of frogspawn in spring and put it in a 2ft tank as the tadpoles hatch and start to grow you will notice a few of them will suddenly become thinner and weaker and stay on the bottom until they just die and get eaten by the others, this goes on as the tadpoles grow until only the strongest survive. You might start out with 200 tadpoles but end up with 30-40 left that morph. I believe its just natures way of making sure the strongest survive. If you add a refugium or sump tank like Ade mentioned it wont happen so much because allthough the tads are not actually swimming in the other tank they know they have twice as much water if you understand.
> Ive never seen it happen in any of the tadpole systems ive used simply because i dont think theres too many tads in them.
> As for the polyfilter these are an amazing piece of kit i know lots of people that use them on marine tanks instead of protien skimmers with great success but for me i wouldnt use them on my tadpole system simply because i think they take out to much out of the water. You have had an excellent year breeding Stu and havent had nearly half the problems a lot of people get so youre obviously doing something right and i always say if it isnt broke dont fix it. Plus i think things can become over complicated if you start trying to do to much. I found a way that works for me and apart from using slightly a different tadpole system i still do it the same as i always have
> 
> Richie


Thanks Richie,for taking the time,and for all the previous help:notworthy:
This tool just seemed to be a good way to clean up the rainwater and be more sure than i am Rich really.There is always the potential with rainwater for its quality to varey and thats what i wanted to nail down...that variablity.As you say,and Mike and Ade i haven't got anything broke really.We somehow have cobbled together a method that really is doing super well for us,so far As we have said manytimes, abit bewildered by how well,none of this was really planned for,well not yet anyway.

Back to the interesting hormone discussion yeah, i know its all to easy to pick up way too many temporia tads in the form of spawn and get problems as one does with any overcrowded animal,back then i wouldn't have dreamed about homones being a culprit just the simple don't have too many of anything in too small a space.
Up to date Ed told me that there are no studies actually relating to dendrobatids,but these hormones have been shown in other genera, but there is anecdotal evidence.
So back to being a kid and don't overcrowd stuff and don't get issues seems the order of the day:2thumb:
Ade many congrats mate,on the regina: victory:: victory: pop a pic up for us all please
thanks to all of you
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Had a few minutes after running around all day this guy was there so took these,Mr Attachibakka























































he's getting to be a good mate now,open the door he almost always bounces foward to see whats on,fortunately his lady doesn't bounce quite so much,or we would have to replace the viv and frogroom floor:blush:
Stu


----------



## frogman955

I know a Chewbacca.
Any relation ? :lol2::lol2::lol2:

Mike

BTW
Nice frogs.


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> I know a Chewbacca.
> Any relation ? :lol2::lol2::lol2:
> 
> Mike
> 
> BTW
> Nice frogs.


hey mike how are ya mate?
nice frog:lol2: 
yeah actually the chewies are 3rd cousin twice removed on his mum's side,but comming from way further north they are better equipped fluffy wise,and thats why your more familiar with them
i'll get me coat
Stu


----------



## frogman955

:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:
I`m good ta Stu.
Not had much to post.
But, I can`t find my tiny free range froglet so i`m thinking its been too weak and finally given up.
The other one is doing great though and munching down fruit flies, so won`t be long before it`s filled out nicely.
The Basti froglet is coming out a lot more now and munching on the dish of springtails that I lay out for it.

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> :lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:
> I`m good ta Stu.
> Not had much to post.
> But, I can`t find my tiny free range froglet so i`m thinking its been too weak and finally given up.
> The other one is doing great though and munching down fruit flies, so won`t be long before it`s filled out nicely.
> The Basti froglet is coming out a lot more now and munching on the dish of springtails that I lay out for it.
> 
> Mike


Good to hear your good bro,man its sad when stuff doesn't get through,we both still think about those 2 mysties we lost,been putting in the hours of late just making sure all is right really,we should be banging away at vivs,but,kids and culturing is paramount at the moment.Really chuffed for you that the little pum is going well mate,thats real cool, i can't wait to see what he looks like when he grows up
Stu


----------



## frogman955

The kids come first right enough. Plenty of time to get the vivs sorted out when time allows.
I did get a quick shot of the froglet looking for springs but it`s still a bit nervous so hopped off.
I did though get a lovely shot of the dominant male sitting there with one foot resting on the back of the other as though to say "OI you just remember where your place is" :lol2:
Apart form him doing a lot of shouting there`s no real aggression that i`ve seen.
Any new photo`s though they`ll be posted for you to see.

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> The kids come first right enough. Plenty of time to get the vivs sorted out when time allows.
> I did get a quick shot of the froglet looking for springs but it`s still a bit nervous so hopped off.
> I did though get a lovely shot of the dominant male sitting there with one foot resting on the back of the other as though to say "OI you just remember where your place is" :lol2:
> Apart form him doing a lot of shouting there`s no real aggression that i`ve seen.
> Any new photo`s though they`ll be posted for you to see.
> 
> Mike


Cheers Mike i like staring at pics,pondering:bash:I need to spend more time with the camera too mate,its quite funny as i took those pics from the other side of the room its amatter of really needing a different lens,to do the job i want,i'm either pointing a camera on the end of Mr froggies nose or stuck across the other side of the room struggling for focus,tis funny as hell
speak soon buddy
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

The attchis have been canoodling in their favourite honeymoon hut all day,its started this morning early and he's just came out again headed straight for water, so starting to see a pattern emerging,she is still there,he's looks abit **** can't think why:mf_dribble: Last 2 mysties clutches have been quite large the last 9 eggs and they all look good, as do the last lot of panama specials'eggs,but very early on those,Sb's are still going too more calling today which will mean more eggs i guess.We really think that the young Sb's might be bolder than parents,now so there might be something to the how they are reared theory.Getting another steady stream of sb's morphing again almost daily now,they seem to slow for awhile,i'm not sure why really,but each little froglet seems good and strong,so nothing untoward has gone on,maybe this conincided with the mouth fungus incident tricky to know.but there has been a good gap with mysties coming through as well.We should see more of these fairly soon though. the mayhem continues
bring it on
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Hey Stu you`ll have enough froglets to fill a few tables at the Morpeth meet at this rate.
I take it you`ll be going :2thumb:

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Hey Stu you`ll have enough froglets to fill a few tables at the Morpeth meet at this rate.
> I take it you`ll be going :2thumb:
> 
> Mike


Hope to mate,i've litterally just clocked it,was searching den w,haven't a clue where morpeth is and haven't yet read thread here, shattered mate,burning the candle proper hard at the mo,with the job an all
I'm off to find more info
Stu


----------



## chrism

Stu, where did you get the Attachis? I'm after a male...


----------



## Lutra Garouille

:mf_dribble::gasp: MY god that is one amazing room!!! And some stunning froggies!! Im completely in awe! :gasp::mf_dribble:


----------



## Antonyw

*Quality room that mate*

:2thumb: deffo be getting some put some full room pics up please


----------



## Ron Magpie

Antonyw said:


> :2thumb: deffo be getting some put some full room pics up please


 Good point, Stu, we haven't had any room pics lately.:2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

chrism said:


> Stu, where did you get the Attachis? I'm after a male...


Hey chris
Ha and i nearly got a female hey mate:lol2:,actually Chris as you know i spoke to our mate,he told me that Saul and Attachi are the same,mine came from Rana as did your lass,but be sure on what you have,because some of my american friends have told me the same i asked Ruud they are two separate morphs, Saul nr well lmao the village of Saul would you believe,attachis a fair bit away nr maripousola,don't know of any others mate at the mo. anyway but i'll do ya a deal for some white feet abit later on when they both are going:mf_dribble:.:lol2:
Pulled 7 eggs this morning clutches getting bigger,seriously Chris put me on your wait list,i figure by the time,you get to me i'll be ready:gasp:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Lutra Garouille said:


> :mf_dribble::gasp: MY god that is one amazing room!!! And some stunning froggies!! Im completely in awe! :gasp::mf_dribble:


why thanyou :welcome: to our mad world we like seeing a new face
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Good point, Stu, we haven't had any room pics lately.:2thumb:


Hey Ant,might be a bit of reading here for ya.
hey Ron ya good bro?
Ya know i said it was mad a while back,its much much worse now,I'm utterly wedged in a corner now i need my rearing rack up but can't do that until i have 2 more particular vivs made,i can't do that because of plants everywhere,can't move them until warm weather,and almost daily a froglet appears,throw in extra at work which 'cause of who i am,and the job i do is going to be nailed,i don't know up from down mate, to both i'll see what i can sort,and to other folks bare with me,while i find some more time in a day,thanks for the interest both of you
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Hey Ant,might be a bit of reading here for ya.
> hey Ron ya good bro?
> Ya know i said it was mad a while back,its much much worse now,I'm utterly wedged in a corner now i need my rearing rack up but can't do that until i have 2 more particular vivs made,i can't do that because of plants everywhere,can't move them until warm weather,and almost daily a froglet appears,throw in extra at work which 'cause of who i am,and the job i do is going to be nailed,i don't know up from down mate, to both i'll see what i can sort,and to other folks bare with me,while i find some more time in a day,thanks for the interest both of you
> Stu


 Tsk. Slacker! :lol2::lol2::lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Tsk. Slacker! :lol2::lol2::lol2:


:lol2::lol2:
yeah man i am,but only for a few mins,tell ya what mate i did me homework,as you saw and still am,but because its all come so soon and my lack of self confidence im overdoing alot of feeders so i'm properly sure i can feed all the kids but it all takes time.Work aside,i probably spend too long with the chores because i get wound into talking to frogs etc,what we got into it for,mate we love this.But that time is observation as well: that with livestock is the essence of it,look hard and slow, that time is never wasted but its all time,very cool though doing this ,better go and talk to some kids
Stu


----------



## Antonyw

soundstounite said:


> Hey Ant,might be a bit of reading here for ya.
> hey Ron ya good bro?
> Ya know i said it was mad a while back,its much much worse now,I'm utterly wedged in a corner now i need my rearing rack up but can't do that until i have 2 more particular vivs made,i can't do that because of plants everywhere,can't move them until warm weather,and almost daily a froglet appears,throw in extra at work which 'cause of who i am,and the job i do is going to be nailed,i don't know up from down mate, to both i'll see what i can sort,and to other folks bare with me,while i find some more time in a day,thanks for the interest both of you
> Stu



Sound mate I get instant updates on this thread now so I'll keep looking to see how it's coming along u goin to be selling frogs in the future because I'll deffo be interested in a few months gona do a good bit of research first :no1:


----------



## soundstounite

Antonyw said:


> Sound mate I get instant updates on this thread now so I'll keep looking to see how it's coming along u goin to be selling frogs in the future because I'll deffo be interested in a few months gona do a good bit of research first :no1:


Yeah buddy we already have kids forsale now,but take your time mate,there is a hell of alot to learn with this,the more you learn before frogs the better you are at culturing,the easier it will be for you to look out for them,which essentially means you'll have hopefully fewer problems and both you and your frogs will get more out of it. Buddy enjoy all this learning its never going to stop its a big part of this dart thing
Take care
Stu


----------



## Antonyw

soundstounite said:


> Yeah buddy we already have kids forsale now,but take your time mate,there is a hell of alot to learn with this,the more you learn before frogs the better you are at culturing,the easier it will be for you to look out for them,which essentially means you'll have hopefully fewer problems and both you and your frogs will get more out of it. Buddy enjoy all this learning its never going to stop its a big part of this dart thing
> Take care
> Stu


I think I am gona enjoy keeping darts, is there any good books you can recommend about dartfrogs stu?


----------



## soundstounite

Antonyw said:


> I think I am gona enjoy keeping darts, is there any good books you can recommend about dartfrogs stu?


Have a look on your thread mate:2thumb:,:lol2: yeah put in the graft and they are a fabulous animal to care for,there is so much going on with them
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Hmm no pics of yesterday i tried but the laughter got in the way.So a story of little luecs,Saffron is up top hanging around the top right corner of the viv shouting his little head off,eventuall the pie lady decides ok he's cool i WANT him:whistling2: she goes bouncing over on the floor to directly below him,and heads up vertically dissapearing from view,suddenly she comes tumbling back down,it might be verily noted here that the pielady is called such because she eats abit,couple that with being full of eggs,make for a fat little froggy.So off she sets again and again her gut gets the better of her,each time she gets more fevourish in her attempts to get to him,whom is still calling his little heart out. after about 5 full minutes of climbing and tumbling, she says sod it and makes her way to the other end on the viv and successfully makes the ascent to the top,goes bouncing along the top ledge to meet him.When she finally gets there the tension is so much the said stroking is a proper good slapping,poor little guy it weren't his fault she's mrs lardy ass,Ha it looked for all the world like she was beating the crap out of him,man we were in stiches,anyway all seems to have been worth it pulled 7 little eggs today,so a much bigger clutch if i remember right than her earlier ones.
:lol2:
Stu
Ps of serious note: again her low slung belly had rounded up on her back,almost up from her spine this time,and noticable that when i saw her just a while ago she was much more her usual shape


----------



## Wolfenrook

So Stu, will you be the guy I need to come to for that male leuc I need when I finally get around to upgrading my 3 girls to a bigger viv then? lol

Brilliant frogs, and a briliant story.

Cheers Stu.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> So Stu, will you be the guy I need to come to for that male leuc I need when I finally get around to upgrading my 3 girls to a bigger viv then? lol
> 
> Brilliant frogs, and a briliant story.
> 
> Cheers Stu.
> 
> Ade


ahh mate 3 girls how old are they buddy?Ade have a real close look at their tummys for me tell me what you see please mate,do they go in abit from the backbone ie very low slung,i talked to Marcus about this,our males are round straight out from the back bone,and we still have one i'm not yet sure on,i'm plumbing for a 3;2 group.bayleaf looks like a girl,based on that tummy observation,and not seen her call yet,ha yet!! but we couldn't part with any mate not these 5 little horrors,too attached to 'em
Thanks Ade we were almost wetting ourselves,it was so funny to watch, and when she actually got to him..... ahh to have filmed it,i so agree leucs are such great darts to keep,it is almost an injustice to say the best beginners frog,i'm sure we'll always have some as long as we are able to do this,funny we haven't seen much of them lately then the last few days all over the place,i always see 5 the minute i start playing cultures,he knows the sound of the lids coming off means dad's gonna chuck him a treat :whistling2: Had the best pic last night but the reflection of the glass prevented me getting it,3 in a line all standing on back legs spread eagled vertically,after something i think baby woods,opened the door and 2 moved ahh well.
cracking frogs
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Aye, photos just don't do leucs justice. They look nicer than they do in photos, and a photo doesn't show you how they behave either.

Mine have to be at least 2 years old. They were older juveniles when we got them, and we've had them going on for 2 years. That's how we know they are all female, as NONE of them have EVER called, not once. We're determined to upgrade them to a bigger viv at some point though, and to get a male to go in with them at the same time, so it's new territory for them all, which should hopefully reduce the risk of aggressive rejection. They're in a 45cm x 45cm x 60cm ZooMed at the moment, I'm thinking more along the lines of at least a 60cm cube though, this been the least space wasting layout for a viv (they'll be moving into the frog room once we get the racking, which will have 60cm deep shelves, and 60cm high means the vivs next to it can be for more pums.....see where I am going here? lol). Anyway, I'm going on about my frogs and vivs here, on YOUR thread. lol

Getting back on topic, the underside is pretty rounded, as are their sides, but their backs are quite narrow, similar to a female tinc. My wife calls it "having hips". lol I can't tell you what shape my males are, as not got any. lol 2 are from the same blood line, 1 is from a different blood line, all though are normal banded leucs.

Ade


----------



## frogman955

No dart collection should be without Leucs.
It should be made a crime to not have any :lol2:

Mike


----------



## Wolfenrook

frogman955 said:


> No dart collection should be without Leucs.
> It should be made a crime to not have any :lol2:
> 
> Mike


Don't forget the azureas bud! :2thumb:

Every collection should have leucs, and azureas. :2thumb:

Ade


----------



## richie.b

Wolfenrook said:


> Don't forget the azureas bud! :2thumb:
> 
> Every collection should have leucs, and azureas. :2thumb:
> 
> Ade



And pumilios :whistling2:

saying that i havent had leucs for years :gasp:

Richie


----------



## Wolfenrook

richie.b said:


> And pumilios :whistling2:
> 
> saying that i havent had leucs for years :gasp:
> 
> Richie


Not everybody is ready for pums though, otherwise I'm with you there, my fave frogs are my cristobals!!

You don't have leucs? Seriously Richie, you need to get some bud. :lol2: You know you miss them...

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Aye, photos just don't do leucs justice. They look nicer than they do in photos, and a photo doesn't show you how they behave either.
> 
> Mine have to be at least 2 years old. They were older juveniles when we got them, and we've had them going on for 2 years. That's how we know they are all female, as NONE of them have EVER called, not once. We're determined to upgrade them to a bigger viv at some point though, and to get a male to go in with them at the same time, so it's new territory for them all, which should hopefully reduce the risk of aggressive rejection. They're in a 45cm x 45cm x 60cm ZooMed at the moment, I'm thinking more along the lines of at least a 60cm cube though, this been the least space wasting layout for a viv (they'll be moving into the frog room once we get the racking, which will have 60cm deep shelves, and 60cm high means the vivs next to it can be for more pums.....see where I am going here? lol). Anyway, I'm going on about my frogs and vivs here, on YOUR thread. lol
> 
> Getting back on topic, the underside is pretty rounded, as are their sides, but their backs are quite narrow, similar to a female tinc. My wife calls it "having hips". lol I can't tell you what shape my males are, as not got any. lol 2 are from the same blood line, 1 is from a different blood line, all though are normal banded leucs.
> 
> Ade


I like hearing about your frogs,Ade all of you actually,its all a bit more to ponder on.The 60 cube is ace mate thats what ours are in,if my room was bigger then i think i'd just build these for everyone,hell we both know that nearly every dart would use all of it,thanks for the info mate ahh what apain all girls but it will end well my friend,just a shame you don't hear what we do,shaz can hear ours above the tv with 2 doors shut us being downstairs them up very cool chattering away mate they actually vibrate the whole body goes 5 was calling the other day looked like some mad wind up toy you almost expect them to fall off the perch
Stu.
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> No dart collection should be without Leucs.
> It should be made a crime to not have any :lol2:
> 
> Mike


yup has my vote...hey mate:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Don't forget the azureas bud! :2thumb:
> 
> Every collection should have leucs, and azureas. :2thumb:
> 
> Ade


shh you'll get me in trouble again
Richie dude no luecs:mf_dribble:
no comment on pums:whistling2: gotta get some dosh and wait for some nice chap to find us some ruddy orange bastis with white underneath :whistling2:
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Don`t worry Ade i`ve got Azureus too :lol2:
I`ll not mention that I have Pums too or Stu might take offence to us rubbing it in :whistling2:

Mike


----------



## Wolfenrook

Don't worry Stu, in the day we get to sit in the living room listening to our pums and ameerega bassieri Sisa, at night we get to listen to our hyla calcarata. 

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Don't worry Stu, in the day we get to sit in the living room listening to our pums and ameerega bassieri Sisa, at night we get to listen to our hyla calcarata.
> 
> Ade


Its all good mate,actually Ade i'm really greatful i can hear the tincs i thought maybe my ears wouldn't let me,i have to be in the room to hear anything but just ocassionally get the lot all on the same day,mystie rasp never stops then the leaucs which are much louder and tinc and auratus buzzing means eggs it seems only hear those 2 when something's afoot: victory: Summersi are almost silent,going to need to think on them,but they are ace little guys,little mad robots,all jerky,they look in great fettle maybe just need some mates
Mike don't worry,it will all come in time (pums),and we are both good at waiting for what we want,things are pretty absorbing now anyway,you see more later to explain why i keep saying things are abit mad and we are bewildered by it all,but now i best go do stuff,
bring it on
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ok i wondered about posting this,i keep saying about madnees and being bewildered.
ya'know i did ,sorry, WE did, some homework before we started,both of us work at this,cause we love it so i'm going to try:lol2: to show a little snap shot of yesterday and give those whom requested a glimpse of around the room,i haven't prettied anything up because i've been caught by not being prepared for what happens if darts do breed and what happens if those eggs hatch and what happens if those tads turn into little froggies,none of which i really thought would happen this quick.
Lets start at the beginning well of the breeding cycle at least,these are the eggs pulled over the last couple of weeks we keep them in tupperware with the lid placed but not sealed and water in the bottom,they are misted for litterally a second twice daily
a shot of those incubators:lol2:









the aforementioned leuc eggs









the most recent clutch of attachibakka









a comparison betwixt attchi and mystie both of almost the same age








an older clutch of attachi









other eggs mysties panama special SB's one of the mysties hatched today bottom right i think









tads then make their way to here...foreground,with gizmo behind also at capacity









and then move to here also bloody chocka









as they reach 4legs and stop feeding they go into the tubs you'll see on the floor,this is where we'll cobble up the last rack and make proper rearing vivs,i'll dwell more on that as i get chance to build it. the tubs work great for the little guys they thrive but i want a more efficicent system design is pretty much sorted,they are popped back in a glass and its tilted,mystie we put in a separate morphout container tilted water one end moss t'other and then too tub so a quick turn round Da room:whistling2:

Rearing tubs cultures of giant orange and fast peruvian woods plus incubators on chair









12viv rack more rearing tubs









20 sommit dwarf white woodlice cultures rammed want splitting really








bottom of 6 viv rack note floor rammed with fast wood under right side springtails on the left








top of same springtails at front(takeawy tubs and coco fiber) broms behind








underneath the other rack more springtails this time on charcoal,fed mainly veg scraps the others readybreak









think thats all of it so a tad glass to end on don't forget about that ff cupboard above the 12 rack that erm is full to of big sweety jar cultures mel Shaz special small hydie (see babe i didn't forget: victory: and big hydie,








and managed to feed all the big tads some wild stuff today,mainly blood worm but a bit of other stuff too,
Still spend too long doing stuff but hell we are learners ,in around a month we will have kept darts for precisely 1 year,so when i quitely tell someone do your homework don't rush, now you have a little idea of why i'm saying that.,Good fun though what other excuse could someone my age find to go fishing in a water butt:blush:
Bring it on
Stu
ps hope all the photos are in the right place


----------



## fardilis

soundstounite said:


> Ok i wondered about posting this,i keep saying about madnees and being bewildered.
> ya'know i did ,sorry, WE did, some homework before we started,both of us work at this,cause we love it so i'm going to try:lol2: to show a little snap shot of yesterday and give those whom requested a glimpse of around the room,i haven't prettied anything up because i've been caught by not being prepared for what happens if darts do breed and what happens if those eggs hatch and what happens if those tads turn into little froggies,none of which i really thought would happen this quick.
> Lets start at the beginning well of the breeding cycle at least,these are the eggs pulled over the last couple of weeks we keep them in tupperware with the lid placed but not sealed and water in the bottom,they are misted for litterally a second twice daily
> a shot of those incubators:lol2:
> image
> 
> the aforementioned leuc eggs
> image
> 
> the most recent clutch of attachibakka
> image
> 
> a comparison betwixt attchi and mystie both of almost the same age
> image
> an older clutch of attachi
> image
> 
> other eggs mysties panama special SB's one of the mysties hatched today bottom right i think
> image
> 
> tads then make their way to here...foreground,with gizmo behind also at capacity
> image
> 
> and then move to here also bloody chocka
> image
> 
> as they reach 4legs and stop feeding they go into the tubs you'll see on the floor,this is where we'll cobble up the last rack and make proper rearing vivs,i'll dwell more on that as i get chance to build it. the tubs work great for the little guys they thrive but i want a more efficicent system design is pretty much sorted,they are popped back in a glass and its tilted,mystie we put in a separate morphout container tilted water one end moss t'other and then too tub so a quick turn round Da room:whistling2:
> 
> Rearing tubs cultures of giant orange and fast peruvian woods plus incubators on chair
> image
> 
> 12viv rack more rearing tubs
> image
> 
> 20 sommit dwarf white woodlice cultures rammed want splitting really
> image
> bottom of 6 viv rack note floor rammed with fast wood under right side springtails on the left
> image
> top of same springtails at front(takeawy tubs and coco fiber) broms behind
> image
> underneath the other rack more springtails this time on charcoal,fed mainly veg scraps the others readybreak
> image
> 
> think thats all of it so a tad glass to end on don't forget about that ff cupboard above the 12 rack that erm is full to of big sweety jar cultures mel Shaz special small hydie (see babe i didn't forget: victory: and big hydie,
> image
> and managed to feed all the big tads some wild stuff today,mainly blood worm but a bit of other stuff too,
> Still spend too long doing stuff but hell we are learners ,in around a month we will have kept darts for precisely 1 year,so when i quitely tell someone do your homework don't rush, now you have a little idea of why i'm saying that.,Good fun though what other excuse could someone my age find to go fishing in a water butt:blush:
> Bring it on
> Stu
> ps hope all the photos are in the right place


Now that's a lot of tadpoles. do you really need tht many insects?


----------



## marcuswinner1

Bloody hell Stu, You will have more Frogs in your Frogroom than there are in the wild soon!

(Think you may end up flooding the market too!)

Marcus.


----------



## soundstounite

fardilis said:


> Now that's a lot of tadpoles. do you really need tht many insects?


Lmfao,put it this way mate do you know that i don't
honestly mate how many will morph how many does one froglet eat,if we work this way no one goes hungry,plus i get to help someone else every now and then,i try ...we try to go overkill then don't worry about how we are going to feed some little guy.I'll add around 6 bought cultures so not expensive just time and effort
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> Bloody hell Stu, You will have more Frogs in your Frogroom than there are in the wild soon!
> 
> (Think you may end up flooding the market too!)
> 
> Marcus.


Yeah mate but there is always alot to go wrong this isn't just straight forward,we both know that,sh*t happens!!
As to the market ,well i guess i'll find that out as we go,what this does mean is that the need for WC is deminished, But it is not my intention to demean darts by giving them away,Marcus.Look being realistic i have been told more than once oh i've got 90 tads of X in the water,but they don't all appear at once and they don't all appear full stop.
As always time will tell where this takes us,the whole room thing is a journey,
Stu


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

This just goes to show what hard graft, never giving up, and a lot of research can get. It's just amazing to see Stu and so glad you are doing so well. Keep up the good work and good luck for this year. I'm looking forward to seeing more happening this year!


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> This just goes to show what hard graft, never giving up, and a lot of research can get. It's just amazing to see Stu and so glad you are doing so well. Keep up the good work and good luck for this year. I'm looking forward to seeing more happening this year!


kind words mate,very much so,:notworthy:
Honestly mate god knows whats in store for this year,what you've just seen was planned for this one. As you know.Matty we have worked with animals Shaz and i for a long time,with our birds,as job and hobby.So we both are very aware of how much there is to learn on any animal subject. Superficially,it looks like we know much but in the big scheme we are just starting out. Much to hunt down yet mate,the funny bit is i forget half of it as i learn it,oh well can't have everything. :lol2:
Ahh dude :lol2:that bloody little duck is running round the house being chased by Shaz waters just gone always and the swearing's started,i think we might be put in a home for the unstable soon:blush:
Stu


----------



## Antonyw

soundstounite said:


> Ok i wondered about posting this,i keep saying about madnees and being bewildered.
> ya'know i did ,sorry, WE did, some homework before we started,both of us work at this,cause we love it so i'm going to try:lol2: to show a little snap shot of yesterday and give those whom requested a glimpse of around the room,i haven't prettied anything up because i've been caught by not being prepared for what happens if darts do breed and what happens if those eggs hatch and what happens if those tads turn into little froggies,none of which i really thought would happen this quick.
> Lets start at the beginning well of the breeding cycle at least,these are the eggs pulled over the last couple of weeks we keep them in tupperware with the lid placed but not sealed and water in the bottom,they are misted for litterally a second twice daily
> a shot of those incubators:lol2:
> image
> 
> the aforementioned leuc eggs
> image
> 
> the most recent clutch of attachibakka
> image
> 
> a comparison betwixt attchi and mystie both of almost the same age
> image
> an older clutch of attachi
> image
> 
> other eggs mysties panama special SB's one of the mysties hatched today bottom right i think
> image
> 
> tads then make their way to here...foreground,with gizmo behind also at capacity
> image
> 
> and then move to here also bloody chocka
> image
> 
> as they reach 4legs and stop feeding they go into the tubs you'll see on the floor,this is where we'll cobble up the last rack and make proper rearing vivs,i'll dwell more on that as i get chance to build it. the tubs work great for the little guys they thrive but i want a more efficicent system design is pretty much sorted,they are popped back in a glass and its tilted,mystie we put in a separate morphout container tilted water one end moss t'other and then too tub so a quick turn round Da room:whistling2:
> 
> Rearing tubs cultures of giant orange and fast peruvian woods plus incubators on chair
> image
> 
> 12viv rack more rearing tubs
> image
> 
> 20 sommit dwarf white woodlice cultures rammed want splitting really
> image
> bottom of 6 viv rack note floor rammed with fast wood under right side springtails on the left
> image
> top of same springtails at front(takeawy tubs and coco fiber) broms behind
> image
> underneath the other rack more springtails this time on charcoal,fed mainly veg scraps the others readybreak
> image
> 
> think thats all of it so a tad glass to end on don't forget about that ff cupboard above the 12 rack that erm is full to of big sweety jar cultures mel Shaz special small hydie (see babe i didn't forget: victory: and big hydie,
> image
> and managed to feed all the big tads some wild stuff today,mainly blood worm but a bit of other stuff too,
> Still spend too long doing stuff but hell we are learners ,in around a month we will have kept darts for precisely 1 year,so when i quitely tell someone do your homework don't rush, now you have a little idea of why i'm saying that.,Good fun though what other excuse could someone my age find to go fishing in a water butt:blush:
> Bring it on
> Stu
> ps hope all the photos are in the right place


Quality room mate:no1:, i think you should do YouTube videos :2thumb:


----------



## FrogNick

Good job stu looks like your going to be very busy, i remember thinking to myself where is he going to keep all the rearing stuff for the froglets and food! Its something allot of people under estimate including me!

nick


----------



## Ron Magpie

I can't get over how tidy it all is- if I had all that stuff going on it would look like a bomb had hit it! :notworthy:


----------



## soundstounite

Antonyw said:


> Quality room mate:no1:, i think you should do YouTube videos :2thumb:


cheers Ant no time at the mo for videos maybe one day,
thankyou
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> Good job stu looks like your going to be very busy, i remember thinking to myself where is he going to keep all the rearing stuff for the froglets and food! Its something allot of people under estimate including me!
> 
> nick


Hey Nicky,ya good? Lmfao pretty busy now mate:mf_dribble: I never saw it coming Nick not this soon,i've been properly caught by it all,I'm geared on the food,have worked at it to always be infront on this score,with huge help from Shaz but never reckoned on the kids.There is a big thing being caused by the mysties nick,as they take so long to morph,i have a hunch that the wild grub that is not in such great numbers for the tads in our winter was why the earlier ones came out at around 4 months but we have many sitting in the water now and they are causing a right old traffic jam,i spent hours yesterday trying to get something for them and making sure they took it,hoping that this might just spur some on.We will get another 2 out very soon all that being said,but apart from that mouth rot episode there should be a steady stream,and we are not seeing that,will be interesting to see what happens in the spring once the weather warms abit.Much to learn!!
The final rack will eventually tidy stuff up for a while,i hope,but hell we are just running with it,see where it goes
thanks kiddo
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I can't get over how tidy it all is- if I had all that stuff going on it would look like a bomb had hit it! :notworthy:


:lol2: hell it feels like that Ron,like a bomb has hit,i have got to be as organised as i can,but its not where i want it. Realistically the room is just too small,i've got good plans for the froglets,i hope:lol2: but,trying to work out where to put more tad gizmos is what i can't figure ...YET!! Its not efficient for time Ron working like this,its cool because we get some much enjoyment from it all,but rearing so many birds over the years means i know about easier ways of working...more efficiently. Thankyou for the support buddy its been constant,i better get meself in gear and get busy,got alot to rattle through tonite

thanks bro

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Every now and then i see days of massive activity,where the whole room seems to light up dart behaviour wise,this time it spanned a 48 hr period,starting with wwWTF wrestling between 2 leuc males late yesterday,this morning this had transferred into even weirder(not really my cup of tea girls beating each other up but some guys like this stuff i suppose) properhardcore full bore fighting between the dark one and zorrina our 2 SB females,this one might get bad something we'll have to keep an eye on .Its taken us both by surprise really,as they have been chucking out eggs no egg eating and have been seen sleeping together,for well about 10 months now,i'll chuck a theory up its down to drying them out and progressively feeding less,causing a rif as to how many females this territory will hold,but its alarming to say the least also on the cards was a clutch of special eggs:these guys are way slower and more infrequent layers then the sb's no idea why but we are cool with it. Tank,mrs attachibakka,was demanding more :flrt: from her fella ,and although i feel they are just yanking me chain summersi were canoodling around a film can all day,frrom this morn till once back from the **** we call work.
HMMM i left the room tonite thinking oh soddit...... mysties haven't laid for 2 weeks thought we had it cracked,as we finished the chores Mr man started shouting his damn head off........:bash::bash::censor::bash:
bloody frogs
Stu


----------



## Antonyw

Any more pictures mate


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Every now and then i see days of massive activity,where the whole room seems to light up dart behaviour wise,this time it spanned a 48 hr period,starting with wwWTF wrestling between 2 leuc males late yesterday,this morning this had transferred into *even weirder(not really my cup of tea girls beating each other up but some guys like this stuff i suppose) properhardcore full bore fighting between the dark one and zorrina our 2 SB females,this one might get bad something we'll have to keep an eye on .Its taken us both by surprise really,as they have been chucking out eggs no egg eating and have been seen sleeping together,for well about 10 months now,i'll chuck a theory up its down to drying them out and progressively feeding less,causing a rif as to how many females this territory will hold,but its alarming to say the least* also on the cards was a clutch of special eggs:these guys are way slower and more infrequent layers then the sb's no idea why but we are cool with it. Tank,mrs attachibakka,was demanding more :flrt: from her fella ,and although i feel they are just yanking me chain summersi were canoodling around a film can all day,frrom this morn till once back from the **** we call work.
> HMMM i left the room tonite thinking oh soddit...... mysties haven't laid for 2 weeks thought we had it cracked,as we finished the chores Mr man started shouting his damn head off........:bash::bash::censor::bash:
> bloody frogs
> Stu


Interesting that they've suddenly changed behaviour- has anything else changed (apart from temps, of course!) in the tank? Or does a dry season really have that much influence? You're giving us all some really interesting insights!


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Interesting that they've suddenly changed behaviour- has anything else changed (apart from temps, of course!) in the tank? Or does a dry season really have that much influence? You're giving us all some really interesting insights!


Anthony when i get a moment mate i'll see what i can do.


Actually Ron the temps are still pretty stable,just slightly cooler a couple of F lower at night( maybe not cool enough,difficult with young frogs and tads all relying on the same heating system) .No others factors are varying apart from the amount of spraying and the quantity of food being fed mainly in frequency.Litterally one heavyish feed weekly,trying to make sure Zorina doesn't munch the lot,as she is so much bolder than the other 2.Not even clipped any plants mate,nothing moved...diddly squat:lol2:

with my usual hard observation and the slow ponderence ,evaluating what i've seen and trying to reason it out i'd lay abet that food is the driving force here,now the said territory is not giving them as much so easy so competition is hotting up.I'm still very much getting to grips with all this mate,the auratus viv seems to stay wetter than the mysties,the other frogs we want to rest,the mysties viv is being sprayed mainly to keep the plants from keeling over,we are just keeping them alive(plants)...JUST!!
Its pretty drastic Ron especially for novices playing this for the first time,after 2/3 seasons we'll have this down but its a tricky game for the first time.Every fibre in me says this hardship is actually going to be of great benefit to them, despite that sounding weird..... achieving it is something difficult,without experiance,its essential that they have constant access to water,to rehydrate when necessary.
I'm noticing a pattern mate,obviously,one sees heightened activity with rainstroms/drop in barametric pressure ,but your temp observation,is also something of note,and yeah it does tie in the afore mentioned,cold weather promts more courtship and breeding it appears,however stable the room might be they for sure have some semblence of whats going on outside,'course exactly what one would expect,as i beleive they breed in the cool wet parts of the year,not the hot dry,having lived in various parts of the world mate can you educate me how much temps vary nr to the equator(might be very much a "how long is abit of string Q as so many other environmental factors are at work).
In an ideal world it would be great to have them breeding here something like our temperate amphibians do spring into summer,to take advantage of what nature can provide grub wise,bearing in mind that these are low volume repetitive breeders,so a simplification but you know what i'm getting at.Trouble is i think they want things the other way around realy kicking in in the autumn.Of course i'm really simplifing this starting with frogs of different ages bred all through the year does not make getting all the seasonal stuff together easy as all the frogs want different things and come from slightly different climates,but i guess over time one would be able to have a room cycle,that gets nearer to a season variation for all inhabitants, as lond as one doesn't add in any new young frogs:bash::mf_dribble:does that make sense?
better dash
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

see that's what happens when one ones runs off to chat to some frogs for 1min,ya miss the 100,000 by loads,ahh man that was mine gutted:bash:
almost like being a drummer huh,folks know your there but only say hey dude at the end,when they want to buy ya a beer,man they really think they were listening to the singer too..... and he made them dance:bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash:
:2thumb:
LMFAO
thanks for watching guys:notworthy:
more madness will verily follow
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

iliketurtlesskullkid said:


> one of my dart frogs i think got a bit randy and jumped out of its cage and started trying to make love to my wifes face, or should i say ex wife, the cheating harpi



dude thats a stranger post than a lot of mine: victory: i think they run a counselling service on dendroboard:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

These first pics are for Kirsty,these are ootw about 4 days now,and are way too cute to have spots


























To all note middle pic fat tummy:2thumb: means feeding,that's the second big hurdle after good legs to us crossed,we have seen them striking at stuff as well,but there is nought better than seeing that little belly round up
little leuc tad just starting to colour up









and a couple of Ernie macheto male cause he wanted to be in on this


















seeya
Stu


----------



## marcuswinner1

soundstounite said:


> These first pics are for Kirsty,these are ootw about 4 days now,and are way too cute to have spots
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> To all note middle pic fat tummy:2thumb: means feeding,that's the second big hurdle after good legs to us crossed,we have seen them striking at stuff as well,but there is nought better than seeing that little belly round up
> little leuc tad just starting to colour up
> image
> 
> and a couple of Ernie macheto male cause he wanted to be in on this
> image
> 
> image
> 
> seeya
> Stu


Awesomeness as usual Stu.:mf_dribble:

Marcus.


----------



## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> Awesomeness as usual Stu.:mf_dribble:
> 
> Marcus.


Hey Marcus,
:lol2:i take no resoponsibility,they do this on their own 
Ahh the mysties mate i chucked them some compo gnats as they are such hard hunting it keeps them occupied they don't hate me so much then for not feeding everything to them,they were using the scolopendrium leaves as per Nitiri in avatar,jump of the top land on a leaf to slow descent,pics are cool mate,one day i have got to sort some film out of this stuff,its just too cool to make up
one day:lol2:
Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

soundstounite said:


> These first pics are for Kirsty,these are ootw about 4 days now,and are way too cute to have spots
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> To all note middle pic fat tummy:2thumb: means feeding,that's the second big hurdle after good legs to us crossed,we have seen them striking at stuff as well,but there is nought better than seeing that little belly round up
> little leuc tad just starting to colour up
> image
> 
> and a couple of Ernie macheto male cause he wanted to be in on this
> image
> 
> image
> 
> seeya
> Stu


awesome little misties - how many have you got ootw? and how many 'coming soon' lol?


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> awesome little misties - how many have you got ootw? and how many 'coming soon' lol?


Hey Jaime,mysties don't do coming soon buddy,i'm hoping they will morph before i draw a pension,:whistling2:
6 out i think and well more than a few in the water,and they are still blummin laying despite everything although clutch frequency is massively down so we are getting there. I'm expecting a steady stream mate over the next few erm weeks/ months,got quite a few with back legs but when they will morph i'm just not sure.We are expecting this to speed up as the mosi larvea become available again. But honestly mate who knows.Looks like they will need at least 4 months here before i'd be happy to move them mate they just are so slow,but they are so adorable as kids its no hardship to have them here.I've heard bad reports about moving them too early so am not going there 
something has gone on over the winter to slow things mate maybe water temps is down slightly,but its not much literally a degree or 2 F ,which is why i'm thinking the wild grub is more relevent,early tads were out in 4 months but now morph rate seems nearer 6,real interesting for me this. Its funny watching an auratus tad alongside them grow up morph out and turn into a big froglet while a mystie becomes a slightly bigger tadpole
Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

more time to enjoy them mate 

keep the pics coming Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> more time to enjoy them mate
> 
> keep the pics coming Stu


Yeah your bang on J :2thumb:, Hathe little guys are nailing mels after just a few days well chuffed great to watch wonderful to keep these mate we've been so lucky with them.
I've got a rake of cracking citronella pics to pop up mate you'll see them soon hopefully
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ok boyz and girlz,we have had abit of talk about sexing tincs of late lets see how good you are,sharp eyes will be needed for this one,well we wouldn't want it easy would we,yes you can tell the 2 from each other,bit of fun for ya, oh and i only have ideas myself so a genuine interest in your thoughts


----------



## soundstounite

i think thats all of them:lol2:
Stu


----------



## marcuswinner1

Hmm, Tricky! I would say the slimmer one (on the left in the last pic) is a boy and the chubbier one on the right is the most likely to be Female but I could be wrong and they are two boys, or come to think of it two girls! lol. 

How old are they Stu?


----------



## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> Hmm, Tricky! I would say the slimmer one (on the left in the last pic) is a boy and the chubbier one on the right is the most likely to be Female but I could be wrong and they are two boys.
> 
> How old are they Stu?


Hey mate,just talking to you about luecs somewhere else:2thumb: Marcus we got them last summer end of may),once I've reared tincs i guess i'll age them better,my hunch is they are just over a year old,guessing that 4months when bought,we have always had doubts about a pr,I'm with you mate real tricky,our other tincs very straightforard you can see it at a glance,although one is not yet proven,i'll be stunned if they are not a pair.
i've put this out on dartden aswell I'm fascinated to hear what everyone thinks. They are such good mates of ours taking photos was good fun too biggest issue was keeping them far enough away from the lens to get focus...... "ah dad's got his camera out,wonder if its got food in it" tincs huh
Stu


----------



## marcuswinner1

soundstounite said:


> Hey mate,just talking to you about luecs somewhere else:2thumb: Stu


Just answered you somewhere else too.:2thumb:

Marcus


----------



## detail3r

What substrate are you using out of interest Stu? Would be interested in a breakdown of the components if possible.

Anthony.


----------



## soundstounite

cor blimy no more efforts on the citronella sex debate,C'mon folks help a guy out.
Pretty excited today we are very close now to getting some new little kids to care for tiny tiny leucs,if you go back just abit you'll see a pic from a few days ago note how the colour has enhanced in that time.It always gets me this each and every froglet.I've also popped in a mystie tad,which will probably morph sometime in october:bash::bash:


















little mystie









Hmmm we fed the 2 little mysties a few mels last night,as they have started to take them,but i messed up abit and put in quite afew more than i meant to,was gobbsmaked this morning to see they had nearly scoffed the lot and were still hunting,although somewhat slowly than normal due to shape change:lol2:
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

To be honest Stu, the cits ALL look female to me. lol None have big front toe pads, all are deep bodies and plump. But it could just be they're fat and too young to tell yet. lol

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

detail3r said:


> What substrate are you using out of interest Stu? Would be interested in a breakdown of the components if possible.
> 
> Anthony.


I've pretty much varied it Anthony right the way through modifying as i learn,which is rapid i guess,when starting.My goal has always been a dryer free draining substrate. My first build the leucs taught me to work on this,my first move was actually not substrate but to make the false floor steeper in our vivs,than the conventional ent design to aid water runoff.I've used chopped friutwood/hazel twigs real coarse orchid bark mixed and seperate as a base layer,fundamentally, haven't deviated much from that mate,but each viv my hunches tell me to make this deeper.Over that quite simply i now use a slightly rotted leaf litter mix mainly oak and beech combination,the site of collection is actually clay based thinking about it but i'm collecting above soil level so hell knows if thats relevent. This is topped off with whole oak and clem armandii leaves.So pretty damn simply,my heart says the biggest deal is the top layer of leaves being replenished regularly.I'm also finding that i'm sterilising stuff more as i go,,part of that is i use boiled oak leaves for our tads and our froglets(where springs are so important) so hell i boil a big pot and spread them around pretty often. So nothing too fancy mate just replicating nature really,one doesn't often beat her and all the time thinking of making it dryer.
Anthony as a total opposite to the above have a look at my thread on dendroboard ....species section...oophaga..Title show me your Paru vivs,its interesting anyway but i'm drawing you particularly to Turface!!
best
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> To be honest Stu, the cits ALL look female to me. lol None have big front toe pads, all are deep bodies and plump. But it could just be they're fat and too young to tell yet. lol
> 
> Ade


Thanks mate,not an easy one for sure,i'm really hoping for more feed back on this one as its real tricky
cheers
Stu


----------



## detail3r

soundstounite said:


> I've pretty much varied it Anthony right the way through modifying as i learn,which is rapid i guess,when starting.My goal has always been a dryer free draining substrate. My first build the leucs taught me to work on this,my first move was actually not substrate but to make the false floor steeper in our vivs,than the conventional ent design to aid water runoff.I've used chopped friutwood/hazel twigs real coarse orchid bark mixed and seperate as a base layer,fundamentally, haven't deviated much from that mate,but each viv my hunches tell me to make this deeper.Over that quite simply i now use a slightly rotted leaf litter mix mainly oak and beech combination,the site of collection is actually clay based thinking about it but i'm collecting above soil level so hell knows if thats relevent. This is topped off with whole oak and clem armandii leaves.So pretty damn simply,my heart says the biggest deal is the top layer of leaves being replenished regularly.I'm also finding that i'm sterilising stuff more as i go,,part of that is i use boiled oak leaves for our tads and our froglets(where springs are so important) so hell i boil a big pot and spread them around pretty often. So nothing too fancy mate just replicating nature really,one doesn't often beat her and all the time thinking of making it dryer.
> Anthony as a total opposite to the above have a look at my thread on dendroboard ....species section...oophaga..Title show me your Paru vivs,its interesting anyway but i'm drawing you particularly to Turface!!
> best
> Stu


Cheers for the informative response Stu.

I haven't checked that thread out yet. However after some research it turns out that Aakadama clay, used in the bonsai hobby, has similar properties to Turface (fired clay). Rich13 on Dendroworld has been trying out this substrate for the past 12 months in one or more of his vivariums and has really struggled to get a significant microfauna colony established.

Just some food for thought.

Anthony.


----------



## Wolfenrook

detail3r said:


> Cheers for the informative response Stu.
> 
> I haven't checked that thread out yet. However after some research it turns out that Aakadama clay, used in the bonsai hobby, has similar properties to Turface (fired clay). Rich13 on Dendroworld has been trying out this substrate for the past 12 months in one or more of his vivariums and has really struggled to get a significant microfauna colony established.
> 
> Just some food for thought.
> 
> Anthony.


That doesn't surprise me Ant, as Akadama is fired. It's not going to provide nutrition like organic substrates will as it wont make as good a site for the growth of funghi etc. You may as well use leca as use Akadama.

I still reckon that if you want to use clay, then a pocket of it is a good way to go. Sooner or later the inverts from your ABG mix are going to crawl through the pocket, especially if it's under a deep layer of leaf litter. I'd also use a soft clay, like Tropica substrate, as this will retain water far better than fired clay, plus more of it will find it's way into the guts and surface of the inverts, which is the point at the end of the day. :2thumb:

Not sure Stu why you needed more drainage bud. I have no problems with wet substrates in my European style vivs at all, even adding sphagnum peat to the ABG style mix. You aren't by any chance using a strip of cork at the bottom of the slope are you? I ask as cork can be pretty water resistant and interfere with the drainage as I have found. I've found some thinly cut strips of xaxim work better, or better yet fill in the gully with leca/gravel and just put substrate right to the front vent with a bit of net to keep it out of the leca/gravel. : victory: The only viv I have trouble with a wet substrate in is my citronella one, which basically the gully overflows as it has a bung not a drain, but will be putting a drain set in very soon now it's on a higher shelf. I do however use a fair amount of rooting plants in my vivs, which suck up a LOT of water, they even usually root into the gully and suck that dry too.:lol2:

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

detail3r said:


> Cheers for the informative response Stu.
> 
> I haven't checked that thread out yet. However after some research it turns out that Aakadama clay, used in the bonsai hobby, has similar properties to Turface (fired clay). Rich13 on Dendroworld has been trying out this substrate for the past 12 months in one or more of his vivariums and has really struggled to get a significant microfauna colony established.
> 
> Just some food for thought.
> 
> Anthony.


Hey Anthony,I appreciate that,i talk to Rich often,great keeper,I'll have a chat to him. As he is awesome on the springtail culturing,then it very much points to subs being wrong ie the Aakadama."My" mix i also use for our froglets,it seems great for springtails,i microwave everything apart from those top leaves(boiled) and set up a few weeks before arrival of little feet. No issues,i don't tend to actually seed vivs now with springs,the numbers explode for us but have gone over abit often because i have vivs running for so long before frogs,so i chuck lots in just before frogs.That said i do stock from the off with dwarf white,its superb for these mate, we even use it as abase for our cultures,i'll prove that with a pic i took yesterday,to give a little bit back to a Canadian friend as we are doing so well with DW








.

As always Anthony i'm a year in so can't give a long long term overview of how this will perform,but this really simple take seems to be ticking the boxes for us.Like yourself I've read much about the clay subs and personally thought i maybe should be striving for those,hence the above link...lol2:..ish) on turface,but you've made me think for the moment why change what is working for me so well,for that mate a big thanks:notworthy:.The test will be long long term and oophaga,maybe then a reappraisal will be in order,but its not due yet.
Again mate i suppose its that simple approach,that we utilise so often..."what does nature do,ok we'll copy that" that is working so well,for us,that last bit in quotation marks, is a big deal mate,i'm a mad jovial guy out for a laugh,but this is a second of seriousness, much is to be made of that simplicity,because nature has already done the complicated stuff for me.
Anthony ponder on that,we use rainwater,we use live wild food for tads we make tad tea from aldercones growing in a wood... our above subs,and i sit here scratching my head worrying about our little girl frogs laying too many eggs:bash:.....touch wood:whistling2:
Stu


----------



## detail3r

I really need to get some dwarf white woodlice at some point, get a culture or two going.


----------



## Wolfenrook

detail3r said:


> I really need to get some dwarf white woodlice at some point, get a culture or two going.


Drop by and I'll sort you out with some to get you going.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> That doesn't surprise me Ant, as Akadama is fired. It's not going to provide nutrition like organic substrates will as it wont make as good a site for the growth of funghi etc. You may as well use leca as use Akadama.
> 
> I still reckon that if you want to use clay, then a pocket of it is a good way to go. Sooner or later the inverts from your ABG mix are going to crawl through the pocket, especially if it's under a deep layer of leaf litter. I'd also use a soft clay, like Tropica substrate, as this will retain water far better than fired clay, plus more of it will find it's way into the guts and surface of the inverts, which is the point at the end of the day. :2thumb:
> 
> Not sure Stu why you needed more drainage bud. I have no problems with wet substrates in my European style vivs at all, even adding sphagnum peat to the ABG style mix. You aren't by any chance using a strip of cork at the bottom of the slope are you? I ask as cork can be pretty water resistant and interfere with the drainage as I have found. I've found some thinly cut strips of xaxim work better, or better yet fill in the gully with leca/gravel and just put substrate right to the front vent with a bit of net to keep it out of the leca/gravel. : victory: The only viv I have trouble with a wet substrate in is my citronella one, which basically the gully overflows as it has a bung not a drain, but will be putting a drain set in very soon now it's on a higher shelf. I do however use a fair amount of rooting plants in my vivs, which suck up a LOT of water, they even usually root into the gully and suck that dry too.:lol2:
> 
> Ade


Hey mate,
yeah i do use cork mate across the front,but with ruddy great gaps init for water drainage,and as above after that very first viv which i changed i have no issues.no way i'll be filling in those gullies mate,they are just so used by the frogs,and so easy for me or Shaz to top up, I've pretty much covered the rest i think mate once again its that age old adage of this works for me something else works for another,but its fascinating to mull on the whys and wherefore of how each go about doing this that's for sure
Stu


----------



## detail3r

Wolfenrook said:


> Drop by and I'll sort you out with some to get you going.
> 
> Ade


Cheers boss!



soundstounite said:


> Hey mate,
> yeah i do use cork mate across the front,but with ruddy great gaps init for water drainage,and as above after that very first viv which i changed i have no issues.no way i'll be filling in those gullies mate,they are just so used by the frogs,and so easy for me or Shaz to top up, I've pretty much covered the rest i think mate once again its that age old adage of this works for me something else works for another,but its fascinating to mull on the whys and wherefore of how each go about doing this that's for sure
> Stu


I use cork at the front of one and chunks of xaxim at the front of the other. While the false bottom isn't as steep as yours, I have added a layer of LECA between the false bottom and the substrate, which seems to aid drainage.

Anthony.


----------



## frogman955

Stu I had a look at your pics like you asked.
I`m no expert but i`ll have a guess that of the last 2 pics the one on the right is the female.
It`s a damn close call though and they could just be 2 males.

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Stu I had a look at your pics like you asked.
> I`m no expert but i`ll have a guess that of the last 2 pics the one on the right is the female.
> It`s a damn close call though and they could just be 2 males.
> 
> Mike


Thankyou mate this is all illuminating to me,time will tell what they are,its real interesting to find out what folks see though for me anyway
Stu


----------



## snowdragon

hi jay
sorry bother you but i have just seen that you use the RFUK GAY group 
i have looked for it where is it ? how do i join it ?
look forward hearing from you .
xscot


----------



## detail3r

:gasp:


----------



## Ron Magpie

snowdragon said:


> hi jay
> sorry bother you but i have just seen that you use the RFUK GAY group
> i have looked for it where is it ? how do i join it ?
> look forward hearing from you .
> xscot


I think he made it up, to be honest...

But there are a few of us around :2thumb:


----------



## frogman955




----------



## Ron Magpie

frogman955 said:


>



:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:

Deal with it, dude....


----------



## marcuswinner1

woah.....this is really off topic:lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> woah.....this is really off topic:lol2:


yeah not offended but not really sure of its place here,I'm sure Scot just got his wires crossed and meant to put this elsewhere.
Anyway back to room stuff,just pulled our very first leucs froglets now sat waiting to move to morph out tub,pretty little things really looking forward to the marking development ,it will be way more distinct than the auratus and mysties,with just the yellow bands,but first fingers crossed for meta !! and seeing them move well
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Nice one on the froglets Stu.
You`ll probably find that the markings will change very little between now and adult size.

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Nice one on the froglets Stu.
> You`ll probably find that the markings will change very little between now and adult size.
> 
> Mike


I'm note sure Mike,they are not ootw yet,so the bands are unbroken ,i'll get some pics in a min,then better get some work done,ruddy virus has kicked hell out of us, starting to mend now,but keeping it all going this week has been a bit taxing with both of us clobbered,but i don't think I've screwed anything up: victory:
gonna have little tincs soon mate,colour starting to show on attachis,no peace for the wicked hey mate:lol2:
Stu


----------



## frogman955

It`s all good Stu.
I`m doubtfull that you have made any mistakes so don`t be worrying.
My comments on your froglets markings came from me thinking you had said they were now OOTW so applogies for jumping the gun :whistling2:
Anyway I hope you both get well soon.

Mike


----------



## richie.b

Well Stu i would say the citronella are 2 females myself, but as you know its hard to tell just from photos

Richie


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Well Stu i would say the citronella are 2 females myself, but as you know its hard to tell just from photos
> 
> Richie


Yeah i know mate,thats why i put so many up tried to cover all angles as it were,massive thanks for the imput rich hope your good buddy

Mike some more little leuc pics bit better than the earlier ones all 4 2 more to come



































and finally one of the 3 attachibakka just starting to colour









thanks for the help lads
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Nice photo`s Stu and froglets are all looking good.

Mike


----------



## marcuswinner1

Looking good Stu, 

Mine are a tad (no pun intended) behind yours. One of them has 1 front leg out and the others all have pointy elbows going on! The very faintest signs of some yellow are just showing, until today I was quite excited at the chance of morphing some all black Leucs lol.

Will put pics of mine up as soon as I get some good ones for comparison. I went to see Spanner today to pick up one of his excellent springtail cultures for morphing food:2thumb:

Good luck mate, not that you need it!

Marcus


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Nice photo`s Stu and froglets are all looking good.
> 
> Mike


Late sunday,time to ponder:gasp:
I've been trying to work out whether they are tadlets or frogpoles Mike,froglets they can't be, i've reasoned, because they have a tail,see how simple that bit is,tadlet implies small tad,so it ain't that one
therefore they must be frogpoles
Quadrat et demonstrandum:notworthy: 
yeah i know but someone's got to work this stuff out:bash: otherwise it all just gets confusing
ok I'll get someone else's coat:lol2:
thanks for the words mate:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> Looking good Stu,
> 
> Mine are a tad (no pun intended) behind yours. One of them has 1 front leg out and the others all have pointy elbows going on! The very faintest signs of some yellow are just showing, until today I was quite excited at the chance of morphing some all black Leucs lol.
> 
> Will put pics of mine up as soon as I get some good ones for comparison. I went to see Spanner today to pick up one of his excellent springtail cultures for morphing food:2thumb:
> 
> Good luck mate, not that you need it!
> 
> Marcus


I like David,i only met him breifly at FD but he's a star:notworthy:, he's up there with the best mate for sure,damn i wish i could do springtails like that,getting slowly better and not short but i wish i knew what that food is he's using was made from.One of his cultures would morph all my frogs i reckon:mf_dribble:


yeah love to see some pics of yours mate really would and i need all the luck i can get mate so i'll take that and chuck some back for your lot too:2thumb:
Hmm me being me i'd settle for a chocolate leuc all black would be pretty cool though thats for sure 
belucky mate: victory:
Stu


----------



## frogman955

soundstounite said:


> Late sunday,time to ponder:gasp:
> I've been trying to work out whether they are tadlets or frogpoles Mike,froglets they can't be, i've reasoned, because they have a tail,see how simple that bit is,tadlet implies small tad,so it ain't that one
> therefore they must be frogpoles
> 
> Stu


Damn it Stu why did you have to chuck that one out at this time of night ?
I`ll not be able to sleep now :bash:

Mike


----------



## Spikebrit

snowdragon said:


> hi jay
> sorry bother you but i have just seen that you use the RFUK GAY group
> i have looked for it where is it ? how do i join it ?
> look forward hearing from you .
> xscot


it's just a banner someone on here made and i've never taken it off. There is a thread in off topicout with some of us posting on and thats where it's from




Ron Magpie said:


> I think he made it up, to be honest...
> 
> But there are a few of us around :2thumb:


lol, there is a few of us lol


----------



## snowdragon

*not*

not my intention to upset or start trouble 
but iam sorry the above guy did but that a new member who has just joined not realy a good warm welcome . but i would just like to say that i have not been here nrly a few weeks and the welcome i have had and the new contacts and info i got HERES THE HUGE THANK YOU .
YOU ARE VERY WELCOME TO ADD ME ON FACEBOOK 
[email protected]


----------



## soundstounite

snowdragon said:


> not my intention to upset or start trouble
> but iam sorry the above guy did but that a new member who has just joined not realy a good warm welcome . but i would just like to say that i have not been here nrly a few weeks and the welcome i have had and the new contacts and info i got HERES THE HUGE THANK YOU .
> YOU ARE VERY WELCOME TO ADD ME ON FACEBOOK
> [email protected]


Scot i have no issues whatsoever with folks being different than me ie colour creed race sexuality,able body or disabled, whatever,it matters not to me.But this is a thread about dartfrogs,and mildly related stuff. Buddy your taking this way off track as your posts don't contain anything relevent to our dartfrogsfrogs or this thread. I know you have amphibians and are interested in darts so why not center your posts around that,your questions and imput are welcome in this regard.

Stu


----------



## frogman955

soundstounite said:


> Late sunday,time to ponder:gasp:
> I've been trying to work out whether they are tadlets or frogpoles Mike,froglets they can't be, i've reasoned, because they have a tail,see how simple that bit is,tadlet implies small tad,so it ain't that one
> therefore they must be frogpoles
> Quadrat et demonstrandum:notworthy:
> yeah i know but someone's got to work this stuff out:bash: otherwise it all just gets confusing
> ok I'll get someone else's coat:lol2:
> thanks for the words mate:2thumb:
> Stu


Ok is that us back on topic now ??????


Stu
Have you decided yet what your going to call them :lol2:

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Ok is that us back on topic now ??????
> 
> 
> Stu
> Have you decided yet what your going to call them :lol2:
> 
> Mike


Hell knows mike I'm thinking we'll manage to confuse each other anyhow:2thumb: but it is slightly surpising that no one has a specific name for a tad with 4 limbs and a tail,even metamorph seems vague so to us let them be frogpoles and then the rest can play catch up: victory: or did you mean names:whistling2: like BobLuectastic the 4th .:2thumb:

got a couple of real big springtail cultures starting to get silly with numbers Mike which is a godsend,got another kids tub seeded today,will have to cobble up more very soon. These springs i am really pushing to be better at Mike got little experiments going on and all sorts,I'm not short and most folks would be happy with the results i'm getting but i still feel there is more to learn...work to be done.So important at the moment this,for the kids,thats why it is a reoccurring theme,its never far from my thoughts.
Have only had 1 mystie clutch now in nearly 4 weeks so maybe I'm starting to win the battle to give the girls a rest, it amazes me that i don't see more dicussions on this here even on dendroworld,Gaz gave me some great info on this and some of the guys across the pond i talk to have helped too thanks to all,but Gaz really opened my eyes to how drastic this is another top guy whom i have alot of time for.
seeya bro
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

I tend to call them morphlings. 

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> I tend to call them morphlings.
> 
> Ade


Ahh thats kinda cute:2thumb: its probably a good thing that i didn't write our dictionaries out Hey mate? 
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Wolfenrook said:


> I tend to call them morphlings.
> 
> Ade


:lol2: @ Ade.

Stu
I was meaning the like of frogpole or even Ade`s morphling.
The likes of naming them proper with pet names should be left to the women as thats the daft kind of thing they do lmao.
Thankfully I too am not short of springtails and have even managed to get a good population of tropical woodlice going.
Like you though i`m searching for the best way of getting them to litterally explode in numbers, so, the battle continues.
I`ve got the fruit flies nailed going by the amounts that I have at the moment so if that keeps on as is then i`ll not have to worry about that side of things again.

Mike


----------



## marcuswinner1

Right Stu, as requested heres a pic of one of mine, It popped the second arm this morning and was transferred into the morphing tub, one more has joined him this evening. Not the best pic but I'm happy with the lack of SLS and the colours are steadily showing more and more by the hour


----------



## Bluefrogs

Its looking very healthy Marcus....well done mate doesn't look like any signs of SLS bet you're pleased. If you fancy some swaps let me know I've got some nice F2 Alanis ready soon. Still no calling from the male Patricia? going to see if i can source another male as my F1 Patricia is massive getting bigger and bigger by the week... wouldn't surprise me if she gets to near 50mm at this rate.


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> :lol2: @ Ade.
> 
> Stu
> I was meaning the like of frogpole or even Ade`s morphling.
> The likes of naming them proper with pet names should be left to the women as thats the daft kind of thing they do lmao.
> Thankfully I too am not short of springtails and have even managed to get a good population of tropical woodlice going.
> Like you though i`m searching for the best way of getting them to litterally explode in numbers, so, the battle continues.
> I`ve got the fruit flies nailed going by the amounts that I have at the moment so if that keeps on as is then i`ll not have to worry about that side of things again.
> 
> Mike


yeah i guessed mate frogpole/morphling is the choice:mf_dribble:
woods sorted 
ff sorted
springs closing down but they are just not where we both know they can be ,its a consistency thing Mike,some are real good but most just ok.
stu


----------



## Bluefrogs

That's not a bad idea Stu....Naming the Tads at different stages of changes. less of a mouthful than explaining it's got backlogs breaking through etc. Looking forward to hearing the names mentioned, maybe we can name them after you? Stu Morpthlets etc :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Bluefrogs said:


> That's not a bad idea Stu....Naming the Tads at different stages of changes. less of a mouthful than explaining it's got backlogs breaking through etc. Looking forward to hearing the names mentioned, maybe we can name them after you? Stu Morpthlets etc :2thumb:


there is alot a frog related madness here,but it all makes perfect sence to me thats the worrying bit,Rob i think we all need to see mrs Patricia:2thumb:
Marcus thanks mate i'm with Rob looking good buddy ours did the 3 leg thing too,i stopped worrying about that one along time ago whats that then?? a tripole:whistling2:
I'm reckoning yours are a day behind ours mate but damn isn't it close they could be from the same clutch, are you up for us both popping some pics up say every 3 days as they morph,bit of fun and interesting to see what goes on.
We also have 2 behind thess 4 there ya go big back legs
bipoles
On the morphing there is a scale is there not that the boffins use? something beginning with G?? 
seeya guys thanks again Marcus best o luck mate
Stu


----------



## Bluefrogs

soundstounite said:


> there is alot a frog related madness here,but it all makes perfect sence to me thats the worrying bit,Rob i think we all need to see mrs Patricia:2thumb:
> Marcus thanks mate i'm with Rob looking good buddy ours did the 3 leg thing too,i stopped worrying about that one along time ago whats that then?? a tripole:whistling2:
> I'm reckoning yours are a day behind ours mate but damn isn't it close they could be from the same clutch, are you up for us both popping some pics up say every 3 days as they morph,bit of fun and interesting to see what goes on.
> We also have 2 behind thess 4 there ya go big back legs
> bipoles
> On the morphing there is a scale is there not that the boffins use? something beginning with G??
> seeya guys thanks again Marcus best o luck mate
> Stu


Loving the tripole Stu...we're definitely losing the plot now :loll: I will try and get some pics of my female Patricia on here soon...Shes only 7months old and is as big as my male Alanis F1's bit young for a mrs yet though :whistling2:


----------



## frogman955

When I was breeding E. Anthonyi`s I had a froglet with sls that slipped through the net, just because I had so many froglets.
Where it was different is in that it had only 3 legs, so I called it Tripod.
It was hopping around so well that it hid the fact that there was any problem so when I did find out it only had 3 legs I couldn`t bring myself to do away with it.
I put it away about a year ago and i`ve since heard that it was still going strong.

Mike


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Scot i have no issues whatsoever with folks being different than me ie colour creed race sexuality,able body or disabled, whatever,it matters not to me.But this is a thread about dartfrogs,and mildly related stuff. Buddy your taking this way off track as your posts don't contain anything relevent to our dartfrogsfrogs or this thread. I know you have amphibians and are interested in darts so why not center your posts around that,your questions and imput are welcome in this regard.
> 
> Stu


I have some thoughts on this, Stu, but since they're not directly related to darts I'll PM you.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I have some thoughts on this, Stu, but since they're not directly related to darts I'll PM you.


No worries Ron pm replied,and as above all are welcome lets try and keep things kinda froggy related,lets face it we have enough problems with the OP going off on one already:blush::lol2:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

If we've got everything right......IF then this might just be our last mystie clutch for a while,the IF is a massive deal,i think something that we have striven for for some time ,and however much I'm hoping, i suspect that this will not be the last clutch,but hell here's hoping.We lost some of the clutch to a rogue snail,but i got him,and then waited for our little male to do what he's meant to. there is an ambiguous difficulty to pulling eggs,sometimes say a snail gets them,sometimes a fungus ,sometimes the viv is only prepared to get the frogs so far,then we step in. I can see the appeal of oophaga leave the frogs do it,i also kinda like the close contact of stepping in,being part of the rearing,watching these little guys daily, caring for them seeing all stages of development,its a rush to me not a hardship,same goes with Shaz i guess, watching the wonder on her face tells me this.
So where is all this cobblers leading, well here these pics,we might try to humanise this and say its his reward,I'm just thinking damn this is beyond cool,but tis just what these guys do,which in a way I'm guilty of interfering with,with my desire to spread stuff around,whatever your views on pulling eggs it doesn't get better than actually seeing this,don't ask me how they stay there though:gasp:



























Tell me thats not the coolest thing and i'll probably say your a liar:Na_Na_Na_Na:
Oh and 'cause were total learners we instantly popped some little glasses in so Mr dude has a choice of depo sites,which of course darts which don't (LMFAO) like water thought was dad being kind and giving them some cool paddling pools to play in each female jumped in and had a play,even just doing a submerged floating thing all limbs out head underwater,causing much concearn to Shaz and I" OMG its going to drown",yeah we are still worrying now 
until one knows, one will always worry,so i for one will be glad when tads are in water and all adults are not drowned,as always we'll see but here's aero snapped playing before i pulled the plug on photo's in an effort to not cause more disturbance 
pretty sweet huh








They do have constant access to water for a soak of course,in this dry season thing we are learning about,but this was wonderful to watch and not a little funny
Stu


----------



## Evie

Wow Stu these are so amazing to see - I can see how easy it would be to become an addict! I'm excited by the opportunity to have the priviledge of caring for darts - the possibility of being lucky enough to breed and rear them just blows me away!


----------



## soundstounite

Evie said:


> Wow Stu these are so amazing to see - I can see how easy it would be to become an addict! I'm excited by the opportunity to have the priviledge of caring for darts - the possibility of being lucky enough to breed and rear them just blows me away!


Murph perfectly said,and my feelings exactly,this does just blow me away,man i wish i could have filmed today, there are all levels of awesome with these frogs
and damn they make us laugh,just occassionally you can see them thinking 
Stu


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

Evie said:


> Wow Stu these are so amazing to see - I can see how easy it would be to become an addict! I'm excited by the opportunity to have the priviledge of caring for darts - the possibility of being lucky enough to breed and rear them just blows me away!


Quite simply Stu, AMAZING!!! Nice work!


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Quite simply Stu, AMAZING!!! Nice work!


hey bro ya good?
thanks mate not me da froshe init,:no1:I'll be intouch at the week end Matty all being warm:2thumb: want to avoid the weekend to send
Stu


----------



## bill33

couple of pics of my Retics


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

soundstounite said:


> hey bro ya good?
> thanks mate not me da froshe init,:no1:I'll be intouch at the week end Matty all being warm:2thumb: want to avoid the weekend to send
> Stu


I'm good thanks, hope you are both good. I'm going to be planting up the tank I bought.of paul over the next few weeks so I can move the leucs into it. Then need to redo the fantastica tank and can get the leucs old one sorted to maybe get some mysties this year. If not then next.

Yeah thanks Stu, I had forgotten haha. It's crazy this British weather!


----------



## soundstounite

bill33 said:


> couple of pics of my Retics
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image


Bill bloody superb can we beg ya for a FTS please
thanks for posting
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> I'm good thanks, hope you are both good. I'm going to be planting up the tank I bought.of paul over the next few weeks so I can move the leucs into it. Then need to redo the fantastica tank and can get the leucs old one sorted to maybe get some mysties this year. If not then next.
> 
> Yeah thanks Stu, I had forgotten haha. It's crazy this British weather!


Cool,buddy let no stone be unturned until you have mysties,you'll tell me I'm right once your keeping them,oh Dad still hasn't offloaded the kids i think he's waited so long he's really enjoying this,poor little guys are being bounced all ways:lol2:.
Yeah mate the weather is mad one day it starts getting warmer next damn cold,the amount of times I've nearly contacted you,i don't forget this stuff mate I just want no hiccups this time
Stu


----------



## marcuswinner1

Hey Stu,

How are the Leucs doing? Heres an update on mine..










Got 6 in the morphing tub now :no1:


----------



## soundstounite

ha how's this....We have exactly the same:no1: 2 ootw one was right up top this morning Shaz mentioned, i tried to get some shots today but maybe my lens is not right,got one pic but had problems with focus:bash::bash::bash:,i'll have another go tomorrow,your little guy looks great mate massive congrats
Stu


----------



## frogman955

I`m feeling left out with you two :lol2:
I`ll need to get some pics of mine posted soon.


Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> I`m feeling left out with you two :lol2:
> I`ll need to get some pics of mine posted soon.
> 
> 
> Mike


you know me mate lets see them and for both of you have alook at this thread seen as were all being Leucsters tonight,look out for the one's looking at you,some properly cool markings here
unique leucs! - Dendroboard
Stu


----------



## marcuswinner1

That first one is mental mate, really like the symetrical one on page 2 too.


----------



## marcuswinner1

soundstounite said:


> ha how's this....We have exactly the same:no1: 2 ootw one was right up top this morning Shaz mentioned, i tried to get some shots today but maybe my lens is not right,got one pic but had problems with focus:bash::bash::bash:,i'll have another go tomorrow,your little guy looks great mate massive congrats
> Stu


 
Cool that we got 6 each mate, funnily although I have 6 all at the same stage 2 are from a more recent batch than the other 4. I raised the 2 from eggs and the other 4 were older but came to me as massive tads. think they were raised at a slightly lower temp so although the 2 are younger they have developed quicker with the higher temp but not quite as large. Although they all seem to have good enough front legs, I would say those on the larger 4 (cooler temps, slower growth, bigger froglets) are bulkier. Worth a mention I think.


----------



## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> Cool that we got 6 each mate, funnily although I have 6 all at the same stage 2 are from a more recent batch than the other 4. I raised the 2 from eggs and the other 4 were older but came to me as massive tads. think they were raised at a slightly lower temp so although the 2 are younger they have developed quicker with the higher temp but not quite as large. Although they all seem to have good enough front legs, I would say those on the larger 4 (cooler temps, slower growth, bigger froglets) are bulkier. Worth a mention I think.


Yes Definitely worth a mention Marcus,i'm not totally keeping the records i really should, just so busy and trying to keep on top of everything but i document most of the significant stuff here.I'm almost sure ours are from 2 clutches as well,i'm sure my first clutch was 4 eggs 3good. Water temps have dropped just slightly i think over the winter,litterally 1-2 F,but personally,i can't place much difference in froglet sizes,but i'm sure there is something in your observation.Only difference is mystie morphout times that i can place anyway. But again a different diet,ie not so much of the live stuff could be a big factor. I think these little observations are incredibly important Marcus,oh just to note water temps in summer hover around 74F now 72F here ,do you have an idea what your temps are?
good stuff mate,its great that we all have a laugh together: victory:,but this stuff is hellish important,its agood oppurtunity to compare notes when we have a coincidence such as this,2 totally separate groups of frogs of the same species morphing out together in two separate locations,much to be learned,or at the very least pondered over.
Massive thanks for the imput dude
Stu
Ps some of those patterns are spectacular aren't they:mf_dribble:


----------



## bill33

here is my FTS shot as asked for










took a quick pic of one of one of my Nancys while getting the FTS, also took a pic of their FTS cheers bill


----------



## soundstounite

Cheers Bill,cool looking vivs mate,and the Nancy is beautiful
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Back on those leucs,5 now ootw,looks like some are straight into food and one little guy should still be swimming not scaling to dizzy heights ,probably being lead astray by a sibling








a couple of similar shots all i could get as they are diving for cover and not being very cooperative

















but hell the legs are good and they seem to all be doing ok,so well chuffed, just need a few more days to be over this stage of worry:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

OH BLOODY HELL I FORGOT:mf_dribble:
One year ago today 25th feb Shaz and i got our very first frogs 5 little luecs and exactly one year on we have 5 baby leucs only this time real tiny little baby leucs on exactly the same day. Pretty cool huh
So happy anniversary Shaz be well soon
:flrt::flrt::flrt:
Stu


----------



## marcuswinner1

soundstounite said:


> Yes Definitely worth a mention Marcus,i'm not totally keeping the records i really should, just so busy and trying to keep on top of everything but i document most of the significant stuff here.I'm almost sure ours are from 2 clutches as well,i'm sure my first clutch was 4 eggs 3good. Water temps have dropped just slightly i think over the winter,litterally 1-2 F,but personally,i can't place much difference in froglet sizes,but i'm sure there is something in your observation.Only difference is mystie morphout times that i can place anyway. But again a different diet,ie not so much of the live stuff could be a big factor. I think these little observations are incredibly important Marcus,oh just to note water temps in summer hover around 74F now 72F here ,do you have an idea what your temps are?
> good stuff mate,its great that we all have a laugh together: victory:,but this stuff is hellish important,its agood oppurtunity to compare notes when we have a coincidence such as this,2 totally separate groups of frogs of the same species morphing out together in two separate locations,much to be learned,or at the very least pondered over.
> Massive thanks for the imput dude
> Stu
> Ps some of those patterns are spectacular aren't they:mf_dribble:


Hi mate, looking at the thermometer in my tad rearing tub it looks like being around 80F. I raised my last lot of tricolors at this temp too and they were the first that morphed ok for ages but it does seem a little warm compared to your temps. I have been worried recently about overnight drops as my house can get really cold overnight in the winter and so have been using an aquarium heater, they do seem to come along very quickly at these high temps but Im sure the optimum temp is probably a tad lower. I would imagine that the 4 that were at lower temps before I got them were about the same temp as yours, but thats a guess (pretty sure they were not heated above whatever the room temp is anyway).


----------



## coolcroc

[image[/QUOTE]


Hi,

What is the name of the plant growing on the back ground?

Neil


----------



## soundstounite

coolcroc said:


> [image


 
Hi,

What is the name of the plant growing on the back ground?

Neil[/QUOTE]

Not my viv Neil ,but the plant is ficus pumilla quercifolia
Stu


----------



## bill33

couple more of the nancy


----------



## soundstounite

Bill the first close up is superb i like the second but the first does it for me.


We went for a walk today in a big old wood owned by the forestry commission,they have some mad bits of art work about here and there. Next to an old hollow where there is an exposed outcrop of rock well actually in the hollow was an actual cast of the rockface,sorry no pics but i need to find out how the hell they took that casting,even the tree roots were picked out it was stupidly awesome in detail,my thoughts were instantly translated to viv background,this casting appeared to be in some form of metal and was around 5' high by 8' long,unbelievable bit of work.If one could translate that into a lighter substance the vivs would be amazing built using it,truely inspiring
Something else almost as surreal is the fact that our little mystie male still has an alive tadpole on his back,its been days now ,he dropped the other 2 awhile ago I'd love to know what the hell is going on
Stu


----------



## bill33

Thanks Stu the first is my favorite too.


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Hi Stu, any new updates? I'm having Da dart room withdrawals 

John


----------



## frogman955

Well I said earlier that I was feeling left out :lol2:
Here`s a pic of one that`ll be hopefully hopping around soon.

Mike


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Very smart! Well done 

More baby froggies

John


----------



## soundstounite

Mike looking good mate,and thanks for this,i'll try to get onit soon a week and we are gonna see another beautiful little leuc froglet.

John hey bro ya good,and Ron,thanks guys,work(horrendous and mental) little frogs bla bla is at fault i guess,i'm simply spending more and more time trying to be better researching to get things right and doing than posting,and still loving it


We are now looking out for alot of kids so the margins for error are way less than when just looking out for a few young adults,especially on the feeders.I'm chasing springtail production on a grand scale!!! I guess,there is alot to be learned by not relying on the power of bought in,forcing oneself into a corner where one has to produce,while still providing for all those kids,and keeping ahead of it all,hmm maybe more Stu gobbledegook.
I'll try and explain:i seriously don't want to buy in,i don't feel its a good thing for many reasons,firstly lets through away cost because its a no brainer secondly,our independance,we don't rely on someone else to produce our frogs grub,if they go hungry its us to blame not a nameless face our frogs are our responsibiltiy,what ever it takes they will be fed.Added on to this is the closed flock senario from my poultry work,don't bring anything in...don't bring in a disease or a paracite ,but there is a way bigger scheme at work in a closed flock that is one of high production.you mostly eat eggs from a few highly chosen birds that have been inbred to hell same with almost all the chicken eaten by our society,these started life as a vigorous hybrid,Jubelee indian gameXLight Sussex for example,constant selection has led to the table birds of today producing in 6/7weeks whatever it is now.
To ellucidate all this is the simple fact that slowly but surely we are creating inbred strains of feeders that thrive here that do well for us under the conditions that we use. Most of you,will be saying oh man you need to outcross to maintain genetic variability,but this is not the case.the constant selection of the doers,the most vigourus stock that thrives under a select set of conditions is what will yeild the higher production. Another very relevant factor to illustrate this from my bird work,is as a gamekeeper.Pheasant shoots use artificial incubators to hatch their eggs, most shoots catch their own birds for breeding the incubator selects the deoers they hatch most shoots hatch in the high 90%,untill they get in some birds from a different shoot that fly better:whistling2:,these birds don't hatch so well because they have been hatched in a different incubator...under different conditions...productivity falls...I'm using the same tried tested and proven thoughts for our feeders,'course you'll all have realised that this inbreeding process is why you have say different morphs of darts from the same species,they are equally inbred,only without the interference of man,so similar phenotypes exist in locales,not always but often.
Anyway we have a strain of hydei that constitantly produces well here,it was the first ff culture we bought it came riddled with mites,slowly they were eradicated one culture bought probably 1 1/2yrs ago now produces the same results week in week out,shaz has also somehow god know how:notworthy: isolated some smaller guys from the same strain,that produce equally well. The mels were harder one2 crap cultures with mites didn't make it,but the 3rd if doing as above week in week out after a year of being inbred,dwarf white again 18months in, some of you have seen these,again consistant silly yeilds from one little culture of 40 individuals,if i was lucky:whistling2:
So now I'm chasing those springtails, hunting questing for the strain and the method,i think we have the strain but i'm not sure on the method ,which is a bummer with little froglets about,but we are getting closer,we have no problems feeding the little frogs and the adults the leucs tub is rammed the new babay mysties tub again the same despite the best efforts of FAT hungry mouths to squash numbers another tub is set for the next lot and god know how many cultures are going some are pants for no reason but some are really starting to kick,and in the middle are the steady flow,all thanks to a stonking little culture from me mate Daz swapped for a the same in DW woods when we got our summersi say late summer last year.That one little culture is now feeding god knows what in just a few months,yeah i know and i WANT better:bash:...because i know its out there
Maybe not the usual nice pics stuff that our little room thread so oft consists of but one of those periodic Stu ponderances on something hellish important,i'm sure some will be shaking their heads on the inbreeding stuff,
works though don't it...i have proof.
'Ere John feel better now,bloody good job i did all me jobs before i started typing that lot hey mate :lol2:
best
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Unfortunately i had to go to work as usual...good init and another shocker envoling 999 and a day in hospitols anyway before i went half asleep i got some pretty hard core back up for a suspicion i've held for a good while,so now i'm 99% sure that bailey is female,ie we have a breeding group of 5 leucs 3boys 2 girls,a scrap noted a while back betwixt bailey and the pie lady was a biggy plus the usual hunches regarding shape.the clincher today was saffron calling and bailey following and stroking,i bet we have eggs that i haven't looked for yet,due to the usual unpaid overtime...:bash: anyway i wouldn't pull till tomorrow anyhow.
Some more hardcore horrible stuff (aside from work)...
our first batch of attachibakka 3 kids has ended horribly,the first 2 have had SLS,mild but its there and both have perished,one left the water the other didn't morph,the 3rd is maybe good,of note is that both the first 2 didn't get their legs out cleanly,both had their feet stuck, and the last from the same hatch took well over a week longer to pop its front legs i'll report back on the 3rd which popped its legs cleanly and looks better...thicker of arm....we'll see.and to top this we have had 4 cases of sls appear in the mysties over the last few days,i'm not really sure why these have all seemed to come together,on all levels i have expected to see some problems somewhere at some stage,but there is no tie in to the rearing method in that the attachis have always been kept separate from the other frog tadpoles. already we have reacted,and in time will explore the tie in betwixt vit A and SLS,repashy supervit is sat here waiting to be used ,of note is that it is probable that these little guys have had less wild live grub than the earlier frogs due to winter shortages of this grub,hmm i still sat for hours the other day getting as much as i could into every attachi and mysties tad plus the rest:bash::2thumb:,a good hard won harvest of bloodworms,and one seriously frozen Stu,hard to know what isn't right,as a novice,in your first season,by the same token i'm trying to addess as best i can these shortfalls playing those hunches as always.I'd also note that these attachis are our first hatched so things could well get better,how much stress do a couple of frogs go through after being moved enduring a show etc.
Not to end on a bad note we also have some stonking good little mysties coming through fat as hell in their first week out of the water more following still emerging six little leucs fat as hell and doing great.


A note to myself you didn't expect to rear everything (AND YOU TOTALLY SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO),you didn't expect to rear anything at all in your first year,you haven't lost a tad in the first week or at any other stage other than morphout for ....how long...and you have how many little friends in the water, and how many growing froglets.....dude stop beating yourself up:lol2:

:censor:...... me if i didn't laugh at myself

bring it on
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Sorry to hear about your chewbacca tads/froglets Stu.
It will all come good one day.

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Sorry to hear about your chewbacca tads/froglets Stu.
> It will all come good one day.
> 
> Mike


Thanks bro,honestly it shouldn't all be good,never can every egg be viable or every tad,nature doesn't work that way,there will always be some that just don't make it.that said its still hard to deal with and to post,it would be so easy for me to gloss over this,as i guess the vast majority do,but what the hell would we all learn from that,sweet FA.
i set my stall out along time ago to try and show it all as it happens good and bad,ok i fight abit shy of saying how well we have done,with easier species because i'm not much for bigging myself up,but i'm straight.
You watch me build a viv and see the screw ups as i go same with the rearing,we need to see what goes wrong and the attempts at addressing it,to find out if they work,other wise when i'm saying to folks for example look i rear woodlice like this.... try it guys it is stupidly effective,it will come over as BS, it has to be qualified by something.
If a bi weekly does of vit A which will start tomorrow eradicates sls in all eggs from say a month or two's time then we move forward,if not back to the drawing board.these are not pure experiments but hopefully good anecdotal info. what ever has been posted about say uvb over tads being of huge danger has been refuted,visa versa,we now know that this alone does not eradicate sls,ok just maybe it would if i had a higher dose from the off,who knows ,but there are little bit of info coming out here for folks to think and muse on.
Little tads in glasses getting mouth fungus is another disaster we have seen,cause; no tad tea,but the occasional one previous while using oak tea.that is a stella moment for me,i screwed up bigstyle by removing the tea,and i tried something different..... a mate twigged my brain as to some research already done and i switched to something not so widely used (native alder),which was already here,the problem was totally eradicated...period,i have to make mistakes to learn mate,it is hard to share them,and much harder if it means i cost a tad its life,being a realist it usually pans out to saving far more than what i lose,and some other folks might just benefit as well.
Its all good mike its just ruddy hard at times to see why,then a few months later the penny drops. I might be looking down the barrel of having to cull lots of little tads due to sls,but then again after a struggle i might be looking at something different,and have a good idea of why things have changed,this is why i say i'm a beginner,i just know how much more there is to learn....so much more
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

Thing is, Stu, you not only learn, you help other people to get it right in the process; basically safeguarding future generations of frogs. I'd be willing to bet though, even with your 'mistakes', you still lose less than most.


----------



## frogman955

Well I for one agree with your thoughts Stu.
And your thread is so popular simply because your not bullshitting anyone, it`s as it happens, fly on the wall type of thing.
Yes lots of people hide their failings and leave people thinking it`s all been easy but, as you say nobody learns anything from that.
I`ve been lucky with my Leucs and only had one with slight sls and yes i`ve lost a couple of tads with mouth rot.
I don`t use tea and can`t yet say that I would benefit from it.
That doesn`t mean that you won`t.
It could be a simple thing like the quality of water dictates that you must use it or you don`t need it.
I don`t know if it has anything to do with UV as most of my tanks have UV lights fitted.
My Azureus don`t, so watch this space.
They use the same water the same food and the same suppliments.
Different temps and different humidity.
So i`ll be taking note as no doubt you now will be :2thumb:
One other thing for you to feed on.
The UV lights in my Leucs tanks are pushing 20 months old which begs the question, do we need UV ? or are the lamps still working ok which is supposedly against the norm meaning we`re wasting money replacing them after 6 months.
And remember i`ve just had free range froglets in there with no sls

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Thing is, Stu, you not only learn, you help other people to get it right in the process; basically safeguarding future generations of frogs. I'd be willing to bet though, even with your 'mistakes', you still lose less than most.


Thanks Ron,the future generations bit is real cool ,its all those,little bits we all throw in the pot mate i wouldn't take that for myself but all of us together,yeah mate tha'll work:2thumb:
god know's what % folks rear Ron on each species,from eggs set,you know me i want everyone to do well not just the darts either,we'll do alright mate hell we already are i' only want to be as good as we can be,we both strive for that.
yeah man that'll do:lol2:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Well I for one agree with your thoughts Stu.
> And your thread is so popular simply because your not bullshitting anyone, it`s as it happens, fly on the wall type of thing.
> Yes lots of people hide their failings and leave people thinking it`s all been easy but, as you say nobody learns anything from that.
> I`ve been lucky with my Leucs and only had one with slight sls and yes i`ve lost a couple of tads with mouth rot.
> I don`t use tea and can`t yet say that I would benefit from it.
> That doesn`t mean that you won`t.
> It could be a simple thing like the quality of water dictates that you must use it or you don`t need it.
> I don`t know if it has anything to do with UV as most of my tanks have UV lights fitted.
> My Azureus don`t, so watch this space.
> They use the same water the same food and the same suppliments.
> Different temps and different humidity.
> So i`ll be taking note as no doubt you now will be :2thumb:
> One other thing for you to feed on.
> The UV lights in my Leucs tanks are pushing 20 months old which begs the question, do we need UV ? or are the lamps still working ok which is supposedly against the norm meaning we`re wasting money replacing them after 6 months.
> And remember i`ve just had free range froglets in there with no sls
> 
> Mike


I don't think uvb is totally essential for all dart frogs Mike ,i think it damn well helps, though

Some great thoughts and observations though mate,y'know the biggest problem with all this is all these damn variables,as you have illustrated with the tea, there will always be a different equally effective method working for someone else. having the options out there is important 
I'll be looking forward to seeing and hoping the azzies do well for you mate better than my first tinc hatch anyway,not beaten yet though 
seeya mate
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

hey ho although my last few posts have been a bit hard,ok bloody hardcore, with animals there is always the other side,so here we go with abit of the good stuff,ha and easier on the eye but not so informative.will kick of with these much talked about baby leucs ,thanks again to mike and Marcus for their imput:notworthy: a baby leuc,well called "Alien",it won't stay that way i suppose but it is pretty damn cool,









and here's some of the others...as you can see poor little buggers are half starved:lol2:,i'm pretty impressed they are nailing mels well,and i'm damn glad the room floor was reinforced:whistling2:



























Trouble is the baby mysties are also trying to stuff everything that moves onto their mouths,some are actually out doing the leucs,i'm hoping that a few more gooduns will be added to these fairly soon as the oldest are growing great and fast.....ok mysties,moderately slow,its just easier if they are all about the same size
this supper fat thing playing at being invisable is one of the oldest










and some of the others little dudes



































so not all bad but just hellish hard of late,oh the last little attachi is still going,dare i say looks ok still in the water..... but as ever..............we'll see.


I'll be back in a mo. with some of our tincs the girls were on fine modelling form tonight so next will be deadicated to them.
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

This will class as the closest i have got to true colour on the macheto,learnt a bit of photography skills with yellow this evening,no jiggery pokery they are straight from the hip same as the rest of this but,some real nice shots in this lot,
a big thanks to the tincs for being super co operative and not jumping out,:mf_dribble: especially the girls,but it is adorable how close to us some of our frogs are getting now,life might be easier with other lenses but hell,with frogs being like this its not hard
Macheto "Ernie" 

















and our little ...yeah ok she's big boned but then she's always liked her food even when we first got her she was a bit on the round side,and she was much smaller than Ernie then not so now:whistling2:
Millie







































































and here's a few of Tank...shuddup already:bash: she's very feminine,but damn when she lands from the top of the viv i cringe



























just amazing that these Know me/us so well that i can stick a camera so close,especially Tank
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Cool photo`s Stu.
That tank looks like a real bruiser :lol2:

Mike


----------



## Cornish-J

froglets are looking excellent Stu - Are all your current ootw mistys reserved/taken?


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Ahh that's better I feel all full of frog enthusiasm again.....

Well done Stu.

John


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Cool photo`s Stu.
> That tank looks like a real bruiser :lol2:
> 
> Mike


Thanks buddy, she is a big ol lass, thats for sure 
Its remarkable how well they have settled and how tame they have become, they both respond to my voice more so than sight it seems,its that stockman's banter i guess,they can't see all of me in this small room,so i would think the voice recognition is more important to them,if i move quick and close to them the flight response kicks in,but once i tell them how it is they almost always turn and come back abit,enchanting but quite logical,ha folks might think I'm mad talking to frogs all the time ,but it makes perfect sense

lets hope that all these eggs she's chucking at us do a bit better than the first lot.she lays a big clutch say 8 and then a small say a couple or 3 it seems there is a pattern there.
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> froglets are looking excellent Stu - Are all your current ootw mistys reserved/taken?


i'm not really sure being honest Jaime,here's what i know,i have had a guy waiting for ages now they are ready...the first lot i can't contact him,i don't want to sell to someone else because he has waited for yonks,and i've posted on dendroworld, if no one can put me in touch then i have one other couple (folks) in line who will have these older guys.these coming ootw now will be ready in about 4 months. I don't want to move them to a new home until they are big and strong,i've heard bad things about moving them too young,for one and secondly this bit of sls,has made me more warey,its my first season i need to appraise all this stuff mate.
If someone is having frogs off us i want them to be as perfect as possible,to the best of my knowledge,and sure they can cope with all this moving lark,yeah ok i'm super cautious,but its bad all round if they don't move well,for both parties and even moreso for our kids. I know personally of a couple of horror stories not only here but abroad so ,my caution is not just paranoia or based on my first year status.
If they rear aswell as the earlier guys they will be £70 each, ha and i'd buy em:lol2:
So as honest as i can be mate,with all those unknown factors thrown in for good measure
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Ahh that's better I feel all full of frog enthusiasm again.....
> 
> Well done Stu.
> 
> John


:lol2: anytime bro,hope you good
Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

No probs Stu, i appreciate your concerns and of course the desire to get them strong and healthy before moving them on.

I was hoping to get something a bit sooner than 4 months if im honest so if some of the guys waiting pull out on this first batch then let me know as i will have either 2 or 3 for sure. I've got such a nice viv waiting for some occupants


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> No probs Stu, i appreciate your concerns and of course the desire to get them strong and healthy before moving them on.
> 
> I was hoping to get something a bit sooner than 4 months if im honest so if some of the guys waiting pull out on this first batch then let me know as i will have either 2 or 3 for sure. I've got such a nice viv waiting for some occupants


All good j,,i know you'll love them mate,i guess lots of us are attracted to the look of them ,but its how they are...that character which is so wonderful,best of luck on your hunt:2thumb: and with them when you get some,fabulous frogs!!!
Stu


----------



## marcuswinner1

Leucs are looking good Stu! Ive got some very similar:2thumb: although a couple of them are still looking really orange. Im wondering if its from the flake they were eating as tads (and that the springs have been eating).

Bad luck with the Tincs mate. One of my next lot of Leucs should have both of his front legs out by now but one seems to be stuck, I'm getting a bit worried now too after reading your posts. Was wondering if maybe the hole can fuse over before the leg is out if it doesn't pop when it should??

On a happier note, them Matecho are looking awesome mate, think I need to get me some:2thumb:

Marcus


----------



## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> Leucs are looking good Stu! Ive got some very similar:2thumb: although a couple of them are still looking really orange. Im wondering if its from the flake they were eating as tads (and that the springs have been eating).
> 
> Bad luck with the Tincs mate. One of my next lot of Leucs should have both of his front legs out by now but one seems to be stuck, I'm getting a bit worried now too after reading your posts. Was wondering if maybe the hole can fuse over before the leg is out if it doesn't pop when it should??
> 
> On a happier note, them Matecho are looking awesome mate, think I need to get me some:2thumb:
> 
> Marcus


i do know I've seen some real orange leucs mate,what its attributed to i can't say though i'm sure the old diet is a player,as well as the genes.A mate of mine up north rich has had some amazing colour differences with parent reared and hand reared tads,he's using new life spectrum amphibian formula,,,which i'm too dumb to have got round to trying ...YET:bash: so its not all genes.
marcus i'm thinking your little guy will be ok,provided it doesn't have a kinda snowman shape.i'll tell you why i've seen uneven front leg popping times by maybe up to 3 day many many times now,all have morphed good and strong,with absolutley no problems whatsoever,so for once i really hope I'm right!!!! Can you see a good strong arm shape,you know what i mean underneath the skin if you can,i think things are real positive 
Maybe not all bad on the attachis mate 3rd little guy came ootw today and seems(god i hope so) good. Note the bit i posted about how the front legs popped in the "hardcore" post,and the "arms" always looked thicker,give him a couple of weeks and a fat tummy mate,and ya never know we might just win,2 weeks and i'll be a happy dude,he's got everything he needs so now its all down to him 
Machetos are beautiful aren't they kiddo,one of the guys described that yellow as something like..."holy ferrari brighter than the colour of the sun",well better than that but seriously that yellow is seriously amazing and will never come out in a photo,but those pics are closer,the female in our case is way deeper than the male,they are wonderful,just want them to not breed and keep growing if that is possible...the breeding will come,but it would be great to get them bigger....erm not wider:blush:
good luck bro
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Don`t worry about the orange Leucs.
I can`t remember actually having a yellow one.
They will change as they grow.

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Don`t worry about the orange Leucs.
> I can`t remember actually having a yellow one.
> They will change as they grow.
> 
> Mike


mike are all your adults the same ground colour,we have one that is way paler than the others?
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Mine are all yellow Stu.
As you`ll remember form this photo I posted previously the parent as you can see is yellow and the froglets are orange.
The parents were orange/yellow when I first got them as youngsters.

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Mine are all yellow Stu.
> As you`ll remember form this photo I posted previously the parent as you can see is yellow and the froglets are orange.
> The parents were orange/yellow when I first got them as youngsters.
> 
> Mike
> 
> image


i'm not remembering much at the moment mate,with good reason i guess buddy your photo isn't showing here?
mike i've seen quite a variety of yellows through to orange in youngsters at Marcs,but i haven't seen many adults,in the flesh and with the way cameras show yellow not as its true colour its quite difficult to appraise all this,without actually seeing them however many photos one looks at...intreguing
Stu


----------



## bill33

Bahia Grande


----------



## Wolfenrook

bill33 said:


> Bahia Grande
> image


Indeed a lovely cristobal morph. 

Ade


----------



## marcuswinner1

Hey Stu, you know the other day when I was worried about my Leuc (1st of the next lot) not getting his last arm out, well it has taken days and his tail has nearly gone but he finally popped it out:2thumb:

So you were right!

Marcus.


----------



## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> Hey Stu, you know the other day when I was worried about my Leuc (1st of the next lot) not getting his last arm out, well it has taken days and his tail has nearly gone but he finally popped it out:2thumb:
> 
> So you were right!
> 
> Marcus.


Ha i don't care about being right mate,but i do care that your little guy is now right thats awesome.
Marcus i've seen this so many times now i've stopped worrying about it,as long as i can see that leg bump,i think they might be doing it to mess with me,little horrors:lol2:,,,well to mess with us:2thumb:
Our little leucs are doing well mate all good there,the little mysties also seem all good,yesterday early Saffron our male leuc sex god had both the pie lady and bayley on top of him stroking and canoodling ,poor little fella was squashed by his big girls, later on little 5spice looked after the eggs just laid...i think sneaky little bugger,wonderful clever little guy,if saff's going to bully him then he'll still try and get his genes in the pool by other methods:mf_dribbleulled 5 eggs this morning haven't had time to check for others yet,but i think there might be more,Attachis spent all day yeaterday in the co co hut of :flrt: haven't got there yet,better dash much must be done

wonderful to see all this

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Marcus you'll like this,panama specials are on my mind as the very first little guy...way ahead of the rest is approaching morph out,well he's been moved today but yes he did do the 3 legged thing:lol2:,anyway as we haven't seen them much for a while,here i did an impromtu photo shoot last nght just for the hell of it.
So Da pics














































http:

//i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/Da%20frog%20Room/IMG_3114.jpg























































noticable in the tad was the lack of colour yet but I'm guessing we'll see a huge change over the next few days,
Stu


----------



## marcuswinner1

Nice pics mate, they look so much like my El Cope its unreal. Ive put one more Leuc and the first Tinc Alanis in the morphing tub today, both with three legs:2thumb:

Marcus.


----------



## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> Nice pics mate, they look so much like my El Cope its unreal. Ive put one more Leuc and the first Tinc Alanis in the morphing tub today, both with three legs:2thumb:
> 
> Marcus.


I'm very aware of this mate these i think are smaller,once i've reared kids up i'll be able to appraise that better,my young Sb's are way bigger than these ,and these are breeding,so its difficult to know how well these were reared,and what effect this might have on size,second in a couple of years there might be a more striking difference in the dark markings you can see it starting to happen if you look close already,the center of the dark is getting lighter working towards that eventual grey? Finally the ground colour pictured ie the blue/ turquoise/ green whatever,is not correct as to the frogs actual colour,its being diluted a bit by the camera.All that said mate i hear ya they are not the green that one sees in the pics,well not yet anyway...time will tell us more on this,but i suspect that its the dark reticulation that will be the eventual noticeable difference betwixt the 2 morphs,coupled with size.
Ha we both started laughing at the 3 legged morphouts:2thumb: sorry tripoles, even so it still gets a congrats and a best of luck
Stu


----------



## marcuswinner1

soundstounite said:


> Ha we both started laughing at the 3 legged morphouts:2thumb: sorry tripoles, even so it still gets a congrats and a best of luck
> Stu


Cheers mate, after the other day I'm not too worried about when the fourth leg appears...... A bit more annoyed at one of my Leucs only having one eye! He doesn't seem to care however and is very healthy in all other respects.....I'm assuming the missing eye wont pop out late like the sometimes elusive fourth leg!

Marcus.


----------



## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> Cheers mate, after the other day I'm not too worried about when the fourth leg appears...... A bit more annoyed at one of my Leucs only having one eye! He doesn't seem to care however and is very healthy in all other respects.....I'm assuming the missing eye wont pop out late like the sometimes elusive fourth leg!
> 
> Marcus.


unfortunately i don't think so mate and for the record that is totally new to me,never heard of that before ever,what a bummer!!!!
Stu


----------



## frogman955

I have read somewhere of a froglet with only one eye, the other was like it was sealed shut.
But I can`t remember where I saw it or what the outcome was.
If I find it or remember i`ll let you know.

Mike


----------



## frogman955

A Leuc nearly out of the water with some unusual markings.

Mike


----------



## frogman955

Found what I think I was refering to re the one eyed frogs.
One eyed Leucs


Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> A Leuc nearly out of the water with some unusual markings.
> 
> Mike
> 
> image


thats fat before its come ootw Mike well done mate these little guys are so underated,we had a right cocophany from them this morning more shennanikins on the calling perch,oh and the marking are superb on yours,oh gonna pm ya ina mo. got some news you best hear first,i hope you can take advantage of it.:mf_dribble:
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Aye Stu its a lovely wee froglet and its not even mine lol.
My daughters lad wants darts so badly so i`m giving him a viv and some Leucs as his xmas present.
So gave him 3 eggs and told him since he wants them he best learn how to raise them.
Low and behold thats the first one to be coming ootw.

Mike


----------



## marcuswinner1

frogman955 said:


> Found what I think I was refering to re the one eyed frogs.
> One eyed Leucs
> 
> 
> Mike


Interesting Mike, especially as it is Leucs in your example too. Sounds about the same as mine, the bit about the lack of not only eye but also the supraorbital ridge seems bang on the same as mine.

He seems to be a one off and is healthy, just not sure anyone will want him when It comes to re-homing some of them, so he could well end up being a keeper!

Marcus.


----------



## frogman955

It creates a bit of a dilema Marcus.
As you say theres not much choice for you.

Mike


----------



## Ron Magpie

marcuswinner1 said:


> Interesting Mike, especially as it is Leucs in your example too. Sounds about the same as mine, the bit about the lack of not only eye but also the supraorbital ridge seems bang on the same as mine.
> 
> He seems to be a one off and is healthy, just not sure anyone will want him when It comes to re-homing some of them, so he could well end up being a keeper!
> 
> Marcus.


Might be unwise to breed him, though.


----------



## marcuswinner1

Ron Magpie said:


> Might be unwise to breed him, though.


That said Ron, It would be interesting for future reference to see if this is genetic or caused by environmental factors whilst rearing.


----------



## colinm

If this was in the snake section it would be a new morph,I suppose a Nelson morph.

I would think that it must be genetic despite what they say on Dendoboard.I have had imitators throw up different markings from the same parents occasonally.The tadpoles certainly were not kept any differently to the others that I have had.


----------



## soundstounite

colinm said:


> If this was in the snake section it would be a new morph,I suppose a Nelson morph.
> 
> I would think that it must be genetic despite what they say on Dendoboard.I have had imitators throw up different markings from the same parents occasonally.The tadpoles certainly were not kept any differently to the others that I have had.


Colin you've been at this a good while, have you come across this before in any other species of Dart? it seems to be very scarce and more than a co incidence that the other case mentioned is also a leuc.
oh the Nelson morph comment made me smile, :notworthy:
Marcus i'll ask,of another american site, on this see what i can dredge up
Stu


----------



## colinm

I wouldn`t say that Stu.It certainly does seem strange but these things happen every so often.If they were continually happening with every clutch I would worry but deformities do occur naturally.

A friend of mine once said be careful of all the "Vodoo" spoken about Dartfrogs and I think that he is right.More than any other part of the hobby there does seem a lot of myths and superstitions about them.


----------



## soundstounite

colinm said:


> I wouldn`t say that Stu.It certainly does seem strange but these things happen every so often.If they were continually happening with every clutch I would worry but deformities do occur naturally.
> 
> A friend of mine once said be careful of all the "Vodoo" spoken about Dartfrogs and I think that he is right.More than any other part of the hobby there does seem a lot of myths and superstitions about them.


yeah Agreed not everyone should be right,nor should we rear everyone,however hard we aspire to do well ,but by the same token its nice to know why something has gone wrong,if that said animal was a "doer",i'm always curious about something new that i haven't come across before,but 2 cases that we have come across in all the leucs that are bred doesn't seem,much in the big scheme,i'm sure your bang on the little fella was never going to be "right" as to the voodoo ,its difficult sorting the "wheat from the chaff" early on as a dart breeder that's for sure,especially before the frogs are in your possession,much easier when you can actually,watch and appraise
what's happening yourself
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

GET IN got our first little panama special OOTW today hell know's why he's so far in front of the rest,but i have a hunch i might just have chucked more wild stuff in his glass a while back,better record keeping would be good, also the little clutch of leuc eggs i mentioned a few days ago seem now to be good i very nearly chucked them thinking they were not viable, which goes to show just how careful one needs to be!!! Right on queue the specials have laid today,so will pull them tomorrow.Oh a while back i put up a good few pics of our citronella well it now appears that they are both boys we have seen some aggression between them and both are been calling so that kind of sorts that one,so If anyone knows of a big Cit lass with blue legs and no spot give us a shout please. I'm pretty sure that they are scrapping and calling to Tank our attachi female whom is throwing eggs at us very frequently now,her poor fella is being run ragged ,and they are right next door to the cits,so i bet thats got something to do with it.Oh and our one little attachi froglet is doing ok me thinks starting to put on some weight now,pretty little thing ,lets hope the next lot morph better,I've noted that mossis are laying so this spell of warm weather might bring better grub for the tads and this might just be whats needed for the following attachis as they were so damn close.
We've been having a right ol set to trying to get the springtail numbers up to where i feel more comfortable,and have press ganged the airing cupboard into use for extra cultures,of note: we are now using almost exclusively yeast as their food seems to be going pretty well now,still not what I'm after but them i want alot ...mediocre ain't the goal. We are still using charcoal and also co co fibre as the substrates and various container sizes trying to find the optimumum,a new trial is being run with my fav morrisons 3L tubs vented as per the woods,seems good so far. Oh of note is that the yeast seems not to be attracting any mites as some of the older cultures eventually did in the past,which was expected ,just looking for those massive numbers now and i think we are closing on it. Pics will follow when i get a min
Oh and finally getting ever closer with the summersi found what i'm pretty sure is acouple of dried up eggs yesterday or the day before,the female has looked very big all week,bit of a bummer they were'nt right though,so the question running through my head is whats going on with the fella? He's fit and healthy in appearance doesn't seem stressed by us at all,but for some reason doesn't seem to be responding to her,yeah i know summersi ain't easy but hell everything is right,have thoughts on a next move but still not sure which way to jump as these do appear so damn close to breeding..hell i want to rear these

Stu


----------



## marcuswinner1

Nice one on the Panama specials Stu, I'm still not seeing anything going on with my El Cope, I was wondering, aside from calling, have you got any observations on sexing Auratus? It may help if I could tell what bloody sex they are!

Speaking of Tincs, the Alanis tads that I got from Bluefrogs when he had to sell up are looking good.....










Starting to colour up nicely and the yellow seems pretty unbroken on the first two to pop their front legs:2thumb:

Bit of a bummer on the Citronella dude, good luck finding an appropriate girl for em!


----------



## Wolfenrook

He Stu

Just thought I perhaps had something to offer on your winter feeding problems. As you know, my Regina tads I lost 2 out of 2 during the tadpole stage, BUT the rest all morphed fine and are going strong. No live food at all used. Which is what I thought might be helpful to you.

Basically I feed my tads a diet consisting mostly of TetraMin baby, ENT Dendrovit Pro Aktiv tadpole powder and perhaps oddly Genchem Biomax No1. I say oddly, as it's actually baby shrimp food, so is high in beta caretenoids, calcium in the form of pearl powder along with lots of other goodies. Not had ANY SLS to date, and as I say my tincs morphed fine with the exception of those 2 tadpoles which both died in the same spot in my tadpole system so I don't use that space now.

Regarding your cits, you got a newer photo at all? I still haven't pinned down the sex of mine, but they're both very different. The colour of their toes just aren't condusive to sexing easily. lol

Ade


----------



## Ron Magpie

Wolfenrook said:


> He Stu
> 
> Just thought I perhaps had something to offer on your winter feeding problems. As you know, my Regina tads I lost 2 out of 2 during the tadpole stage, BUT the rest all morphed fine and are going strong. No live food at all used. Which is what I thought might be helpful to you.
> 
> Basically I feed my tads a diet consisting mostly of TetraMin baby, ENT Dendrovit Pro Aktiv tadpole powder and perhaps oddly Genchem Biomax *No1. I say oddly, as it's actually baby shrimp food, so is high in beta caretenoids, calcium in the form of pearl powder along with lots of other goodies.* Not had ANY SLS to date, and as I say my tincs morphed fine with the exception of those 2 tadpoles which both died in the same spot in my tadpole system so I don't use that space now.
> 
> Regarding your cits, you got a newer photo at all? I still haven't pinned down the sex of mine, but they're both very different. The colour of their toes just aren't condusive to sexing easily. lol
> 
> Ade


Hmm, that might be useful for FBTs, too...:idea:


----------



## Wolfenrook

Possibly Ron. It's a VERY fine powder, so the smallest of mouths can manage it. It has to be for baby shrimp. I use it to feed my giant African fan shrimp as well. It's not cheap but it lasts an age.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> Nice one on the Panama specials Stu, I'm still not seeing anything going on with my El Cope, I was wondering, aside from calling, have you got any observations on sexing Auratus? It may help if I could tell what bloody sex they are!
> 
> Speaking of Tincs, the Alanis tads that I got from Bluefrogs when he had to sell up are looking good.....
> 
> image
> 
> Starting to colour up nicely and the yellow seems pretty unbroken on the first two to pop their front legs:2thumb:
> 
> Bit of a bummer on the Citronella dude, good luck finding an appropriate girl for em!


They look good Marcus well done mate,looks like you've done a good job there mate:2thumb: as far as the cits go buddy we're philosophical about it mate,could be worse with 2 girls mate so hopefully we'll be able to keep both our lads providing things don't get any worse with the scrapping,and get a nice unrelated lass to breed from,so not all bad,we are quite attached to these two,little rascals so gonna view it as a good thing although abit frustrating as they were sold as a pr,but nothing is that straight forward. 
The sexing of auratus is a bloody mare mate TBH,I'd always plumb for the biggest fattest being girls but with the SB's one female and the male are almost exactly the same build,the other female is way bigger stouter all that you would expect of a female. Their viv is pretty dense with alot of fittonia on the floor so actually seeing toe pads is quite difficult,i'd look at the usual suspects as far as sex goes mate to pull out a male or a female but it would be nothing more than a hunch .Ade and i were talking about species and morphs relating to beginners the other day,and he put foward ,how even in one species the morphs can behave quite different i think this is wider than just behaviour EG some tincs like some machetos can have big toepads on the girls,hmm not straightforward any of this re cits:2thumb::whistling2:and he also mentioned individual frogs within a morph,he's bang on i reckon and this i feel also translates to build of frog as i have just illustrated with our SB's.
I'd have punt with this though if they are happy and haven't called by a year old ...they are girls...but not having kept Elcope its a stab in the dark !!!
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> He Stu
> 
> Just thought I perhaps had something to offer on your winter feeding problems. As you know, my Regina tads I lost 2 out of 2 during the tadpole stage, BUT the rest all morphed fine and are going strong. No live food at all used. Which is what I thought might be helpful to you.
> 
> Basically I feed my tads a diet consisting mostly of TetraMin baby, ENT Dendrovit Pro Aktiv tadpole powder and perhaps oddly Genchem Biomax No1. I say oddly, as it's actually baby shrimp food, so is high in beta caretenoids, calcium in the form of pearl powder along with lots of other goodies. Not had ANY SLS to date, and as I say my tincs morphed fine with the exception of those 2 tadpoles which both died in the same spot in my tadpole system so I don't use that space now.
> 
> Regarding your cits, you got a newer photo at all? I still haven't pinned down the sex of mine, but they're both very different. The colour of their toes just aren't condusive to sexing easily. lol
> 
> Ade


Yeah i much appreciate you imput mate especially with your knowledge of fish so thanks for this,i can see me ending up with quite a range of tad grub when i finally have a concrete method for all this.
Being me I'm also wondering if over the winter months maybe the water has been a gnats ***** too cold,its been hovering around 72F at coolest 74 warmest,so the thought has crossed my mind about getting a heater installed in the gizmo to just bring the water temperature up to a slightly more stable 75,Marcus and i talked about this a while back,he was running a bit warmer but noted the tads came out a bit quicker and smaller than he'd like,without doubt my temps are fine for auratus:lol2: well the morph's we lookafter,but i wonder if this might also be a player with the mysties much longer morphout times and sls in some but not all,mind you every one with it kills me,and possibly also the tincs which were so damn close to being right ,just the arms were slightly thiner,but formed properly.
Mate my gizmo runs 30L of water could you please recommend a top draw water heater...that ABSOLUTLY will not fail...alot at stake.... so your wisdom on this one before i go there will be grately appreciated. I would have a guess that there are some fine lines hear with temperature and a relevance to different species...i might be completely wrong but temp and wild grub,seem to be the most obvious places that might have been different from the summer autumn successes and no problems . Mind the temp theory doesn't totally add up as the luecs have come through well and they are siad to prefer it warmer than say mysties:bash::bash::bash:
Oh mate...i looked up the citronella pics...and then promptly for got the page:lol2: i think 150,i took them the day i posted which i think was 15/2/2012 so there won't be much difference from then to know if you can't find them I'll look later for ya kiddo and post where they are,can't go back while typing
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ade yup page 150
Stu


----------



## babyjo84

New to this forum so ive just spent 3 and a half hours reading from page one on my little Sony Ericsson phone lol

What a fabulous read! Fabulous thread, talent, frogs, dedication, skills, its all fabulous. They have to be the happiest pet frogs on earth.

Well done, what a sense of achievement a project like this must give you.

Growing your own viv plants, feeders, all the materials. Its just so impressive.

On teh interwebz using Tapatalkz!


----------



## frogman955

You talk about Stu and his acheivements and dedication Babyjo.
But what you just did with your Ericsson is pure dedication.
I couldn`t have done it for sure :2thumb:

Mike


----------



## babyjo84

frogman955 said:


> You talk about Stu and his acheivements and dedication Babyjo.
> But what you just did with your Ericsson is pure dedication.
> I couldn`t have done it for sure :2thumb:
> 
> Mike


Lol! Thanks.

I just love soaking up all the info on here and seeing the passion behind this hobby. Its so interesting 

Even if its not animals I keep, its still fun to read about them, learn a little along the way.

On teh interwebz using Tapatalkz!


----------



## Wolfenrook

Looked at your pics Stu, didn't help though, I'm still really confused. lol I could swear you have a male AND a female there going by the pic, but if you have seen them calling then that's the surest indication of sex there is... I still don't have a clue what mine are either. lol

Regarding putting a heater in your tadpole system, I am surprised you didn't from the off. Stable temps are VERY important, and the reason I lost so many vent tadpoles before I set mine up. All it takes is some prune to leave an outside door open on a cold day and you have dead tads. That's what I found anyway. I have my heater set to 24 degrees Celsius (75.2 degrees F) and this has proven to be a good median. My tads take a LONG time to morph out, but when they do they are big and strong. A trade off I am more than willing to make. In fact, thinking about it, your temps will be even more unstable as if your lighting that's over your tad system goes off at night this is a pretty quick temperature drop every night, a heater will basically keep your temps stable day and night. Do it bud, at the least it will do no harm, at the best it will help you get even better results.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

babyjo84 said:


> New to this forum so ive just spent 3 and a half hours reading from page one on my little Sony Ericsson phone lol
> 
> What a fabulous read! Fabulous thread, talent, frogs, dedication, skills, its all fabulous. They have to be the happiest pet frogs on earth.
> 
> Well done, what a sense of achievement a project like this must give you.
> 
> Growing your own viv plants, feeders, all the materials. Its just so impressive.
> 
> On teh interwebz using Tapatalkz!


Darlin' is your name Jo?
anyway kinda wanted to say one of those genuine thanks thingies,which don't really come over in webland proper cheers mate :notworthy:
We both just do what we can mate,and don't really stop until its sort of done ,its a humble life ethic i guess,i was slightly put off by having me lunch halfway through getting bloody blood worms but hell it still ate good and my hands still smell of pond bottom despite way too many washes,and every tad big enough has had their fill plus somehow we managed a mad dash to a little hide and got shots of a deer and some B&W wood peckers so man we both hurt but one life live it:2thumb:
I noted this tap talk thing and what me mate Mike said....to me thats bewilderingly cool not having a mobile but having a hunch of what he means with my inabiltity to cope with the digital age these mad meaia and all that goes with it
be lucky girl thanks...if i stay awake i might just go off on one again:gasp:
Stu and Shaz


----------



## babyjo84

Lol! Yes my names Jo 

You're doing what makes you happy and you're doing it so well!

The Mrs must be really proud and hats off to her for all her work too.

Compared to dial-up internet, reading this was a doddle lol

On teh interwebz using Tapatalkz!


----------



## soundstounite

babyjo84 said:


> Lol! Yes my names Jo
> 
> You're doing what makes you happy and you're doing it so well!
> 
> The Mrs must be really proud and hats off to her for all her work too.
> 
> Compared to dial-up internet, reading this was a doddle lol
> 
> On teh interwebz using Tapatalkz!


Hey Jo.......:welcome: she is such a part of this mate,every one just hears me rabbitting on, but thats not the truth,tis 2 guys making stuff happen not one,one of those old skool genuine partnerships we have done since kidz two sets of complimentary skills,she has uttely no idea as to how good a stockman she is!!!!
thanks for the words
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

We got to spend a little bit of time out today not frogs but i think most whom read this regular will like ...a couple of snaps taken because of someone else's graft,there is more but they didn't load...bit cream cracked is probably the only excuse,i'll try and get more up when i can,oh they are totally wild !!! these pics at a few yrd are what happens when someone really grafts,so no credit for the pics all goes out to the guys that made this possible 
they have my thanks
muntjac...3_4yrds









Greatspotted woodpecker 2_3 yrds









Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Looked at your pics Stu, didn't help though, I'm still really confused. lol I could swear you have a male AND a female there going by the pic, but if you have seen them calling then that's the surest indication of sex there is... I still don't have a clue what mine are either. lol
> 
> Regarding putting a heater in your tadpole system, I am surprised you didn't from the off. Stable temps are VERY important, and the reason I lost so many vent tadpoles before I set mine up. All it takes is some prune to leave an outside door open on a cold day and you have dead tads. That's what I found anyway. I have my heater set to 24 degrees Celsius (75.2 degrees F) and this has proven to be a good median. My tads take a LONG time to morph out, but when they do they are big and strong. A trade off I am more than willing to make. In fact, thinking about it, your temps will be even more unstable as if your lighting that's over your tad system goes off at night this is a pretty quick temperature drop every night, a heater will basically keep your temps stable day and night. Do it bud, at the least it will do no harm, at the best it will help you get even better results.
> 
> Ade


Mate i can see why your confused over the Citronella I'm with you and they seem to have fooled all so no shame there:2thumb:
All that insulation triple glazing north facing... bla bla has made the room very stable Ade i have watched these temps for months,way before frogs ,so although i hear what you've said about installing a heater and want to to up the anti,with the oil rad kicking in to displace light heating,things are way more stable temperature wise than one would see at first glance or anywhere else in our humble gaff. Mind i designed this room to be stable mate,if i can't do that now,it would be a poor show,i have spent yrs watching and being involved in house building, i think i can make a good stab at every trade,chuck in what i have learned about sound engineering and insulation thereof,its a good bit of factual knowledge i guess.
what i need from your knowledge, me old mate, is the best brand of heater,that will pin down those couple of degrees F,i believe the system is lacking.What's the best brand of heater Ade that WILL not fail me?
I don't want to rear them quick buddy, i want to rear them to the best we can,i'm not out to bang our froglets out i'm out to rear the best Shaz and i can possibly achieve,so I'm tinkering with details that i think might allow us to do this,does that make sense?
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Marcus,i went up to the room after writing to you about sexing auratus and not seeing toepads and our male was pinned to the glass hunting so i can add he has very large toe tips, of the type one would find on erm a male tinc:lol2: proper V shape,don't know if that will help much but with him anyway its blindingly obvious,wish it worked for tincs though dude...LMFAO :bash:
Stu


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## Wolfenrook

If you want a heater that stays the course Stu, there really is only one brand, Visitherm. I have tried pretty much every brand of heater on the market including fancy computer controled ones, and I still reckon Visitherms are the best.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> If you want a heater that stays the course Stu, there really is only one brand, Visitherm. I have tried pretty much every brand of heater on the market including fancy computer controled ones, and I still reckon Visitherms are the best.
> 
> Ade


thats what I'm after thanks buddy,what wattage do ya think i need on 30L or so of water mate?
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

50 watts will be more than enough bud. That's the lowest you can get in the Visitherm but more than enough for a 30 litre container in a warm room.

Ade


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Yes Ade is right. The 50w is perfect.

They do make a 10w Newatino preset heater but it would struggle in an open topped tub.

Sometimes it is better to use a much higher wattage. Yes they draw more current at source but take less time to reach the selected temp. So in SOME cases by using a higher wattage the thing is on less and costs slightly less to run. But this is all based on ambient temps, hooded or not hooded and your tariff.

Just a thought really

John




Wolfenrook said:


> 50 watts will be more than enough bud. That's the lowest you can get in the Visitherm but more than enough for a 30 litre container in a warm room.
> 
> Ade


----------



## Wolfenrook

Aye, plus I like a heater with a thermostat I can change, rather than a fixed preset. They aren't always calibrated that accurately, and with a variable one you can set it using a thermometer to the exact temperature you want it at. When I do use a heater on a fixed preset I tend to hook it up to a separate thermostat still and control it with that. Pushes the price up considerably though.

The only downside with using a higher wattage is if it sticks on. However I have NEVER had a Visitherm fail in the on position, ever. In fact the last one I had that did fail I'd been using for about 10 years.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Aye, plus I like a heater with a thermostat I can change, rather than a fixed preset. They aren't always calibrated that accurately, and with a variable one you can set it using a thermometer to the exact temperature you want it at. When I do use a heater on a fixed preset I tend to hook it up to a separate thermostat still and control it with that. Pushes the price up considerably though.
> 
> The only downside with using a higher wattage is if it sticks on. However I have NEVER had a Visitherm fail in the on position, ever. In fact the last one I had that did fail I'd been using for about 10 years.
> 
> Ade


Ade John thanks guys,i shall find meself a vistatherm 50watt,yeah it had to be one i could adjust Ade,as I'm looking at a specific temp. just a tiny bit higher than where it runs now.

Ade backtracking a bit,'cause its interesting.... i wonder why some of our frogs lay, almost non stop and others are sporadic,your note about the Regina,one clutch and then nothing for a while... promted this Q but I've been thinking on this for a while.My attachi female is throwing them at me,same with the SB's,oh and the mysties ,our specials lay here and there as do the leucs,say every few weeks. Ok i have tried to slow some frogs with some success ,but its of note,the difference in the 2 morphs of auratus we keep,under identical feed regimes here,corse i don't actually know what the sex ratio is in the specials tank, but evenso even if there is only one lass she lays way less frequently,than the SB girls do.A huge amount of rearing varaibles might be contributing to how close to the wild original a CB female is,ie how much she is under developed,but I'd love to have a handle on the whys of this state of affairs. 
Stu


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## frogman955

I have 25 watt heaters lying here and can send you one if you wish Stu.
They are nearly new.
One rule of thumb for heating your tads.
If the thermostat failed, and they can and do.
The smaller the heater the less chance of the water boiling.
If heat is so important for your water, and I doubt that it is from the success you`ve had to date, why not just use something simple like a small heat mat under the tank with a thermostat connected.

Mike


----------



## Wolfenrook

Stu, if you hadn't asked for the best heater on the market, I wouldn't have advised the Visitherm. lol I say that, as if you want something lower wattage you can do it very easily with a Hydor mini heater (these are flat, so perfect for putting in the bottom of a rub) attached to a separate thermostat. This is the setup I have under the false bottom in my leuc viv.

Regarding the breeding ALL except my pums slowed down over the winter. I attribute this to higher temps in my frog room which also meant they dry faster. This coupled with slightly reduced feeding as the extra heat meant my hydei cultures haven't been producing as well or for as long. The food side had less impact on my pums quite as badly as I have still be able to keep my melo cultures producing ok. So basically an unplanned dry season. lol The warmer temps were because the central heating was on, and the back door closed. Conversely room temps are lower in the summer as the central heating isn't on and the back door is often left open. Back to front eh. 

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> I have 25 watt heaters lying here and can send you one if you wish Stu.
> They are nearly new.
> One rule of thumb for heating your tads.
> If the thermostat failed, and they can and do.
> The smaller the heater the less chance of the water boiling.
> If heat is so important for your water, and I doubt that it is from the success you`ve had to date, why not just use something simple like a small heat mat under the tank with a thermostat connected.
> 
> Mike


 Y'know Mike thats what i love about here,i get lots of different points of view to consider,and for the most part folks don't start throwing rocks at each other,it stays pleasant and civilised.
thanks for the offer mate,i may well be barking up the wrong tree,and if i do need to up the temps, i feel thats it is by a TINY amount,and probably not needed now as the weather is warming,thing is a year in i don't know yet
I guess i always quest for details Mike,i do it with everything pretty much its one of those things,i use to constantly drive myself,push meself further. Years and years and thousands and thousand of birds incubated means I'm hugly aware of tiny details of temperature during incubation,and the effects they can have so as always i'm translating that to this,slowly observing and tweaking,there is no doubt in my mind i'm close,and as you say we've done ok ,but i have this monkey on me back,pushing for better
Stu


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## frogman955

Well Stu I think it`s time for you to tell the monkey to back off for a while and give you a rest :lol2:.
Anyway the offer is there if you want a heater.
Just a word to say that i`ve had tads die in the past because of using heaters.
The heated water made uneaten food (fish flake) go sour and when I got home from work all the tads were dead.
It was a community tank thats why it was full of tads.
The water was cleaned out every night and fresh food put in, but heating the water killed them.
Personally i`m reluctant to ever use a heater for tads again.

Mike


----------



## Wolfenrook

Ner, the old using lower wattage heaters due to the stuck on risk is an old one. A common trick aquarists use if they have a large tank is to use 2 lower wattage heaters rather than 1 of a higher wattage. That's why I mentioned the bit about the higher wattage been a down side if it sticks on.

So not an opposing point of view.  You asked me what the best heater was though.  lol

Ade


----------



## Wolfenrook

frogman955 said:


> Well Stu I think it`s time for you to tell the monkey to back off for a while and give you a rest :lol2:.
> Anyway the offer is there if you want a heater.
> Just a word to say that i`ve had tads die in the past because of using heaters.
> The heated water made uneaten food (fish flake) go sour and when I got home from work all the tads were dead.
> It was a community tank thats why it was full of tads.
> The water was cleaned out every night and fresh food put in, but heating the water killed them.
> Personally i`m reluctant to ever use a heater for tads again.
> 
> Mike


That's why you should be using a filter....... The heated water means that the food rots faster is all, which means you need a filter there to deal with the extra ammonia produced by the rotting food. Water changes can only do so much, and in nature you have either the soil or the leaf of the plant the tads are in acting like a biological filter, removing the ammonia. :2thumb:

Ade


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## frogman955

I did in fact do full water changes Ade and only fed as much as they needed to keep it to a minimum.
The heater was only 25 watts and set at minimum.
My point still remains the same though, it is a risk.
All my tads now are raised at room temps and I have very little if not no problems at all.
I`m not saying that your wrong, only saying what i`ve found through experience.
The final say will lie with Stu who will go over everything we say and then get a headache trying to figure out which road to take :lol2:
But he`s not getting any of my paracetamol as i`m needing it myself for my headache :whistling2:

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> I did in fact do full water changes Ade and only fed as much as they needed to keep it to a minimum.
> The heater was only 25 watts and set at minimum.
> My point still remains the same though, it is a risk.
> All my tads now are raised at room temps and I have very little if not no problems at all.
> I`m not saying that your wrong, only saying what i`ve found through experience.
> The final say will lie with Stu who will go over everything we say and then get a headache trying to figure out which road to take :lol2:
> But he`s not getting any of my paracetamol as i`m needing it myself for my headache :whistling2:
> 
> Mike


All good guys,and a luvverly trip to the dentist,which tuned into a total 'mare means that i have already have the head from hell,just wish i had the party before hand and lots of alcohol:bash:.
Guys,much appreciated all this,i'm going to stick some pics up of some little folks 'well cause basically i can't think straight and they fill me with joy,

Our very first Attachi Oh man T'was feeding tonite and those little toes were going...ahh bless,NB tummy:no1:if we loose this now I'll be well cheesed off with moi!!!



























Our very first panama special auratus,just OOTW,not feeding yet again NB width








love that pale blue









now some more mysties,an obsevation,mysties put on some weight with less grub than auratus, leucs and tincs,although we haven't lost a mystie i have been told others have through overfeeding, which is strange,but we are slightly cautious now on hearing of this,so some fat mysties,which are genuinely being fed way less than the other guys.I still want that round tummy on a little froglet,damn they are so small and i need to see that they are not being malnourished. Could be that mysties move so different than the other tinc clad, we have reared so far, that they simply expend less energy,so there is something to think deep on from a guy that can't think much at the mo. for the above reason :bash: 






































Stu


----------



## frogman955

Nice set of froglets there Stu, well done :2thumb:

Mike


----------



## wolly dartfrog

What a read ( taken me a few days) as someone who is looking to get into this is an amazing thread certainly give one food for thought on many different aspects a few that I didn't even consider. Thanx for the time taken to share you good and not so good times hope to learn a lot me for you two .
Greatfully :notworthy::notworthy: warren


----------



## soundstounite

wolly dartfrog said:


> What a read ( taken me a few days) as someone who is looking to get into this is an amazing thread certainly give one food for thought on many different aspects a few that I didn't even consider. Thanx for the time taken to share you good and not so good times hope to learn a lot me for you two .
> Greatfully :notworthy::notworthy: warren


Your welcome mate,its a rare chance do this,we are very lucky,the hard bits are hard 'cause of the passion i guess, but the good is ruddy amazing with these frogs,go slow with it mate,maybe not as slow as us but the time taken is really worth it...guess I've said that before :lol2: 
Still going for it though and still awestuck by what we get to see
Stu


----------



## wolly dartfrog

Yeah I'm in no rush have to find a breeder first plus learn the vast amount I need to to do right by the frogs... Was just havin a read and come across this article you've prob found this or read similar but just incase you haven't thought is share. Here's the link

Dendrobates azureus

Cheers warren


----------



## marcuswinner1

Hi Stu (and others),

Sorry about the deley in response, been to Cornwall and Devon with work earlier in the week and been doing Daughters 4th b day stuff all day today! Anyway....Frogs......

Im starting to wonder Stu if there might just be a trio of Females living in the El Cope viv, with the lack of calling and the little podgy underslung bellies they seem to have! Time will tell I suppose.

Loving the Froglet pics mate, especially your Tinc. 

In the age old tradition of "I'll show show you mine if you show me yours".........










First Alanis, with a Leuc obviously, four more of each in there too, other Tincs still to fully lose their tails but the Leucs are all at about the same stage.:2thumb:

Marcus.


----------



## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> Hi Stu (and others),
> 
> Sorry about the deley in response, been to Cornwall and Devon with work earlier in the week and been doing Daughters 4th b day stuff all day today! Anyway....Frogs......
> 
> Im starting to wonder Stu if there might just be a trio of Females living in the El Cope viv, with the lack of calling and the little podgy underslung bellies they seem to have! Time will tell I suppose.
> 
> Loving the Froglet pics mate, especially your Tinc.
> 
> In the age old tradition of "I'll show show you mine if you show me yours".........
> 
> image
> 
> First Alanis, with a Leuc obviously, four more of each in there too, other Tincs still to fully lose their tails but the Leucs are all at about the same stage.:2thumb:
> 
> Marcus.


Ha the age old tradition made me smile mate,they look real good buddy,I 'm pretty sure you should have calling mate with relationship to age,so i'm thinking the same way on the auratus.
Now what's going on with these tinc kids mate?...yours are alainis..predominantly black,but they look almost identical to our attachi....which has no blummin spot on its back,ok ...but our nipper does,at Marc's the other day we saw some little Machetos.... they look the same!!! oh Ade's little Regina are not so far away either,mate this is an observation that has just dawned on me...well ok i've been thinking about it since Marc's ,so I'd be very very grateful if you'ld pop up pics occasionally of these guys as they grow up,i'm sort of fascinated by these markings and where they are going to go now,as always no basis other than using me eyes,maybe it'll be of as much interest as my tincs carrying thread to others but hell,
why not,I'm interested :2thumb:

Stu


----------



## marcuswinner1

soundstounite said:


> Ha the age old tradition made me smile mate,they look real good buddy,I 'm pretty sure you should have calling mate with relationship to age,so i'm thinking the same way on the auratus.
> Now what's going on with these tinc kids mate?...yours are alainis..predominantly black,but they look almost identical to our attachi....which has no blummin spot on its back,ok ...but our nipper does,at Marc's the other day we saw some little Machetos.... they look the same!!! oh Ade's little Regina are not so far away either,mate this is an observation that has just dawned on me...well ok i've been thinking about it since Marc's ,so I'd be very very grateful if you'ld pop up pics occasionally of these guys as they grow up,i'm sort of fascinated by these markings and where they are going to go now,as always no basis other than using me eyes,maybe it'll be of as much interest as my tincs carrying thread to others but hell,
> why not,I'm interested :2thumb:
> 
> Stu


To be honest Stu, I have been wondering about Tinc colouration a bit of late too, mainly with regard to Alanis. Most pics I saw of Alanis when I first got into Darts a couple of years back, were of black Frogs with very slight yellow markings on the back and maybe a very slight hint of blue on the hind legs but if you look at the pic that Rana have been using recently the Frog looks loads more patterned in both colours. Now the F1 parents of these tads that I got were lovely Frogs (the mum was an absolubte monster!) but they were not as heavily coloured as that Rana pic and I am now wondering if the youngsters have more colour than they will have as an adult, maybe the black areas become larger as a proportion of surface area as they grow? I noted recently also that the Dartfrog website pic of a Matecho was more blue than I would expect.

It could just be that there is a certain amount of variation in local morphs and that as new wild caught frogs appear in breeders collections over the years, what we consider to be charicteristics of a morph, but what are in reality merely charicteristics of the few frogs used to produce a number of individuals in collections, can suddenly change as new stock from slightly differently looking individuals from the same populations become available.

Does that all make sense or am I rambleing!!??

I realise that this is not exactly what you were asking but its something that I have been pondering recently. I think if you were to compare perhaps Patricia, Colbalt, Brazils and Oyapocks as morphlings you may have similar thoughts on similarity as you would with Attachis, Alanis, etc


----------



## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> To be honest Stu, I have been wondering about Tinc colouration a bit of late too, mainly with regard to Alanis. Most pics I saw of Alanis when I first got into Darts a couple of years back, were of black Frogs with very slight yellow markings on the back and maybe a very slight hint of blue on the hind legs but if you look at the pic that Rana have been using recently the Frog looks loads more patterned in both colours. Now the F1 parents of these tads that I got were lovely Frogs (the mum was an absolubte monster!) but they were not as heavily coloured as that Rana pic and I am now wondering if the youngsters have more colour than they will have as an adult, maybe the black areas become larger as a proportion of surface area as they grow? I noted recently also that the Dartfrog website pic of a Matecho was more blue than I would expect.
> 
> It could just be that there is a certain amount of variation in local morphs and that as new wild caught frogs appear in breeders collections over the years, what we consider to be charicteristics of a morph, but what are in reality merely charicteristics of the few frogs used to produce a number of individuals in collections, can suddenly change as new stock from slightly differently looking individuals from the same populations become available.
> 
> Does that all make sense or am I rambleing!!??
> 
> I realise that this is not exactly what you were asking but its something that I have been pondering recently. I think if you were to compare perhaps Patricia, Colbalt, Brazils and Oyapocks as morphlings you may have similar thoughts on similarity as you would with Attachis, Alanis, etc


Makes perfect sense,mind Ruud should be the one person to clear this up he collected alot of these frogs or their progentors,once we have an idea how they deveope we'll know abit more ,but your right in that he's told me that the attachis can vary from pale yellow to identical to the saul ...deep yellow
so if the early ones were all pale yellow (like in the Lotters book) then we would expect all of them to look like this,but that's not true according to him,of course we are both talking about the morph we know more about but the same applies to all.
I wanna go where these ruddy frogs live!!!


man i think we have seen something today that no one else has recorded.:no1: and i have proof not bad for 1 yr in
Stu


----------



## marcuswinner1

soundstounite said:


> man i think we have seen something today that no one else has recorded.:no1: and i have proof not bad for 1 yr in
> Stu


Does this relate to the Female Tincs transporting thread? Or is it something else mate?


----------



## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> Does this relate to the Female Tincs transporting thread? Or is it something else mate?


:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:
just need some one to tell me its been recorded before,we'll see mate which ever way silly cool


























oh and these pics are MINE (not directed at you bro
Marcus tank is so big i had to clear the ditch down to the glass so she could deposit but the minute i did she knew exactly why i had done it and dropped him in,she has been courting her fella all day so maybe poor lad had a headache and didn't want to spend today :censor:,
Maybe women have had to finally realise that us chaps have finally won equal rights and will no longer suffer unfair wages being walked on and used as sex objects:bash:
pretty damn cool huh i take me hat off to him for standing up for blokes everywhere
Stu


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## frogman955

Damn but thats some cool photo`s there Stu.
Well done.

Mike


----------



## bill33

Interesting pics Stu
took a couple of my Cauchero today


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## soundstounite

Bill you do well with tincs and have done for a while can you shed any light on the colours of the froglets we are talking about,and also have you ever heard of a female carrying before?
opps cool pics too mate
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Damn but thats some cool photo`s there Stu.
> Well done.
> 
> Mike


Cheers bro mike have you come across a tinc lass transporting before?
Stu


----------



## berksmike

Fantastic pics Bill
Love the stance in the calling one lol


----------



## frogman955

Hi Stu
I`m afraid i`m not too gen`d up on Tincs and what they get up to.
It doesn`t sound good that lol considering i`m breeding Azureus.
But i`ll be leaving their eggs soon because I want to see if they transport them by themselves.

Mike


----------



## frogman955

Stu
Here is a quote from a post on Dendroboard.
"There are always exceptions, I've heard of male pumilio transporting and female tincs transport, but it is much less common. "

Mike


----------



## Wolfenrook

Stu, regarding tincs and how much blue you see on them, there is something nobody has mentioned. Lighting. This can make a HUGE difference to the colours you see on your frogs, not just how bright it is or the spectrum produced either, the angle it hits at can make a difference as well.

Take my citronellas. If you look at them in the viv you would be forgiven for thinking they have black legs, and this is born out if you take a photograph WITHOUT using a flash.










Use a flash, or direct a light at them from the front however, and the true colour becomes clear quite quickly:-










Excuse the low quality, I took them with my phone, oddly to prove to my wife Kirsty that their legs are blue. lol The proof is in the fact that it's face remains black.

My Alanis are the same, unless the light hits them just right the vivid blue reticulation on their legs isn't all that visible, get the light right however and it's like blue lightning streaks down their legs.

So sure maybe some of it is just variation within a morph, but I am quite certain a LOT of it is simply the effects of light.

Ade


----------



## marcuswinner1

A good point Ade....and well demonstrated.


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Stu, regarding tincs and how much blue you see on them, there is something nobody has mentioned. Lighting. This can make a HUGE difference to the colours you see on your frogs, not just how bright it is or the spectrum produced either, the angle it hits at can make a difference as well.
> 
> Take my citronellas. If you look at them in the viv you would be forgiven for thinking they have black legs, and this is born out if you take a photograph WITHOUT using a flash.
> 
> image
> 
> Use a flash, or direct a light at them from the front however, and the true colour becomes clear quite quickly:-
> 
> image
> 
> Excuse the low quality, I took them with my phone, oddly to prove to my wife Kirsty that their legs are blue. lol The proof is in the fact that it's face remains black.
> 
> My Alanis are the same, unless the light hits them just right the vivid blue reticulation on their legs isn't all that visible, get the light right however and it's like blue lightning streaks down their legs.
> 
> So sure maybe some of it is just variation within a morph, but I am quite certain a LOT of it is simply the effects of light.
> 
> Ade


Yeah can't disagree,We have also noted this with the citronella,Marcus is right really well demonstrated Ade thanks for this. I am hoping that our next batch of attachis will fair better than the first 3 so we'll have a few more to rear on and see how these markings actually manifest themselves over time.I'm particularly interested in what is going to happen with the "back" spot on the first to morph out..... some are just starting to colour so very soon it will be crunch time.
Just a note of thanks from me guys for all the related photos and imput to all these little dicussions,about froglets it give the reader so much more info than we could do ,on our own
:notworthy:
Stu
on our own,what with you guys breeding differnt morphs etc


----------



## soundstounite

Excuse my last post,well the end of.
anyawy bit more on Tank carrying tads,she i feel was carrying out her tads as she wanted to use the same site to spawn in,we have more eggs,i'll also note she probably would have carried them all if we hadn't intervened,i'm pretty sure now on this as this morning we found that the tad we saw her with was not the first but the second she had dropped,we have 2 in the ditch,oh and 5 in glasses,not bad eh a female frog courting and dropping tads because she knew she was about to lay all at the same time,they call it multitasking i think.....,be ruddy great if girls could do this like girl frogs hey guys:whistling2: :lol2:
Amazing....... a dart frog...ok a bloody big one has that level of thought going on especially as its not her job really to do the carrying...see that right there IS awesome!!!!
Clever girl
Stu


----------



## snowdragon

*visted stu and shaz*

Iam lucky to be a local just down the road from Stu
so the other day he had a gap in his very busy days
And i got a invite to nip up to meet himself and his loverly otherhalf Shaz.
So excited i got my electric bike out (iam disabled dont have leg power now for normal bike) checked my batterypower hmmmm would i have enough power to get me there and back ???
Damn it iam going to risk it Stu is a very busy guy and i wasnt going to miss this invite.
Soooo off i wizzzzed up the rd i found Stu and Shaz in their loverly little cottage as i descibed it wesleys cottage (harry potter ).
and got a very warm welcome.
Then off to their froggie room .i was awe struck dumb founded gobsmaked and people who know me say that is very rare amazing OMG gorg vivs gorg froggies gorg breeding going on amazed iam still in awe .
So sorry i could not stay so long but i would like to thank Stu and Shaz for the warm welcome and thank you for all the great advice stu . I do hope yourself and shaz will come visit myself and Iain soon 
ALL THE BEST scot :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

snowdragon said:


> Iam lucky to be a local just down the road from Stu
> so the other day he had a gap in his very busy days
> And i got a invite to nip up to meet himself and his loverly otherhalf Shaz.
> So excited i got my electric bike out (iam disabled dont have leg power now for normal bike) checked my batterypower hmmmm would i have enough power to get me there and back ???
> Damn it iam going to risk it Stu is a very busy guy and i wasnt going to miss this invite.
> Soooo off i wizzzzed up the rd i found Stu and Shaz in their loverly little cottage as i descibed it wesleys cottage (harry potter ).
> and got a very warm welcome.
> Then off to their froggie room .i was awe struck dumb founded gobsmaked and people who know me say that is very rare amazing OMG gorg vivs gorg froggies gorg breeding going on amazed iam still in awe .
> So sorry i could not stay so long but i would like to thank Stu and Shaz for the warm welcome and thank you for all the great advice stu . I do hope yourself and shaz will come visit myself and Iain soon
> ALL THE BEST scot :2thumb:
> 
> 
> image​


thanks for this mate,hopefully we'll get more time next time,it is mad busy i come on here for a few moments,write sommit then dash off to do something come back scrawl something else off again alot of froggy stuff going on as you saw plus plants and viv making..... throw in my job alloments tis mad busy
cheers for the words dude
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Stu, if you hadn't asked for the best heater on the market, I wouldn't have advised the Visitherm. lol I say that, as if you want something lower wattage you can do it very easily with a Hydor mini heater (these are flat, so perfect for putting in the bottom of a rub) attached to a separate thermostat. This is the setup I have under the false bottom in my leuc viv.
> 
> Regarding the breeding ALL except my pums slowed down over the winter. I attribute this to higher temps in my frog room which also meant they dry faster. This coupled with slightly reduced feeding as the extra heat meant my hydei cultures haven't been producing as well or for as long. The food side had less impact on my pums quite as badly as I have still be able to keep my melo cultures producing ok. So basically an unplanned dry season. lol The warmer temps were because the central heating was on, and the back door closed. Conversely room temps are lower in the summer as the central heating isn't on and the back door is often left open. Back to front eh.
> 
> Ade


Ade i somehow managed to completely miss this post,i imagine i was typing or ran off to do stuff, anyhow i went back to find the correct spelling for visitherm:bash:,so now am a bit confused please tell me what you use in your setup "tad gizmo" and what wattage is the hydror miniheater please.Finally would you say its as reliable as the visitherm...thats hugely important!!!!

Now regarding the second half: the breeding,your back to front room makes perfect sense and i think might be the way for us Shaz and I to go eventually.
In the wild our frogs are going to breed in the wet season so i can only presume this is going to be cooler,in their native homeland. so more heat in the frogroom in winter coupled with the drying period,will leave us personally breeding in the spring/ summer,which is what i want because i can get all the wildstuff i desire for them so much easier. I think you have it sorted there, maybe not quite by your own doing,but i still think it is worth thinking on.
Ha, I bet our frogs will have none of this and just do what the ruddy hell they want when the ruddy hell they want:lol2:
Stu


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## Wolfenrook

Heh Stu, my fault, apparently it's Visi-Therm. Uhm, my tad setup has an Interpet Deltatherm in it, as that's what I could get locally. lol

The Hydor mini heater is available in 7.5 watts and 15 watts, I am using the 15 watt one. I don't believe they have a thermostat in them, so they can't "stick on" as they are always on anyway, hence I have mine hooked up to an external thermostat, which basically means they're as good as the thermostat you hook them up to. They're a lot like mini heat mats in a lot of ways, but fully water proof.

As to the frogs, don't they usually do what they want when they want anyway? All we can do is give them hints. lol

Ade


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## frogman955

soundstounite said:


> Ha, I bet our frogs will have none of this and just do what the ruddy hell they want when the ruddy hell they want:lol2:
> Stu


You can bet your life on that Stu :lol2:
Mine certainly don`t seem to care what time of year it is.
They just do what they want when they want.

Mike


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## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Heh Stu, my fault, apparently it's Visi-Therm. Uhm, my tad setup has an Interpet Deltatherm in it, as that's what I could get locally. lol
> 
> The Hydor mini heater is available in 7.5 watts and 15 watts, I am using the 15 watt one. I don't believe they have a thermostat in them, so they can't "stick on" as they are always on anyway, hence I have mine hooked up to an external thermostat, which basically means they're as good as the thermostat you hook them up to. They're a lot like mini heat mats in a lot of ways, but fully water proof.
> 
> As to the frogs, don't they usually do what they want when they want anyway? All we can do is give them hints. lol
> 
> Ade


LMAO nope tis my fault i had an A in there,thanks for this.


There is a fine line here with these mysties,two days ago i had heartbreak again with 4 with sls today i had joy with two with good legs,gotta be all from the same clutch,something is just out of kilter a tiny bit,but thats seems to be enough,anyway every single tad has had live grub today,my bloody back is killing me from leaning over stuff for hours,one day I'll have this sorted.
the wait for the next batch of attachis to come out is bloody killing me now,lets hope it pans right this time the one from the first clutch is putting on weight well and looking beautiful real strong colours stronger in fact than the parents and the spot looks to stay,i can't wait to see more of what this couple produce beside the leg thing just this colour is facinating as we know that they can vary substantially within the morph from almost grey to the brite yellow akin to Saul
Stu


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## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> You can bet your life on that Stu :lol2:
> Mine certainly don`t seem to care what time of year it is.
> They just do what they want when they want.
> 
> Mike


I so hear ya mate,but i want to try on some level to manage this,that right there.... i'm getting convinced slowly but surely is the most difficult bit of knowledge to acquire with these frogs,that is where the real skill is,and in essence that "stopping them breeding" might be the factor that lets them produce well for a period year in year out for a good long time,as always i don't blummin know yet :lol2:
Stu


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## soundstounite

God blummindammit i'm creamkrackered,and the cause just a few woodlice init,lmao!! 
So duly i set about a rather large overhaul of our cultures today,what we have accomplished will see us right for a good long while,well I'm hoping it will,noticable as I was writing out dates of record on each culture split or otherwise enlarged was the fact that some of these were set up feb 2011,a right pain, now, having to add a year date to a blummin iso culture. 9 4.5 L cultures are set, that is a big number,no it doesn't seem it but DW don't move too far so to get optimum results one needs a shed load to get the population density,we have that. split a good few 3L too which is great.
we have more specials morphing out 2 have popped good front legs and are in morphout the first out a couple of weeks now i guess, is a beautiful little thing wonderful to see the difference in colour to the variety produced by SB's these are all the same stunning pale blue,almost topping this is the second clutch of attachibakka,one has 4 legs out which look fine the second is doing the tripole thang as did the first but we are not worried.... am sure it's going to be good too. So that leaves us with the theory that the first losses sls might just be down to stress after the move here,we'll all see in a bit more than a week when they are ootw,i have a couple of pics but frankly CBA to load em :Na_Na_Na_Na: you'll see them soon enough so i'm going to learn some stuff and chill for a while
bring it on
Stu


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## soundstounite

Here's those pics quick first attachi of this second clutch, second now had good legs too so a better start than the first lot,

















still interested in the back spot
and mystie morphout tub,full of good uns but here still being clobbered by sls at the same time still getting good youngsters aswell,bloody frustrating :bash:









so in the big scheme with more good pamama special auratus out things are looking good,i can see after posting about this elsewhere why so many folks hide these facts,things get twisted by folks not knowing all the facts and not really reading over the details given,jumping to wrong conclusions... suddenly "we" have major problems with sls not something like a 95% morphout rate of good strong healthy fronglets with no losses as actual frogs whatsoever and what really seems like an issue with sls in one species which by all accounts, seems prone to it.
Shame,cause if things get hidden and are not discussed openly then the learning process is so much slower
Stu


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## Wolfenrook

Eh? Who said you had major problems with SLS? Missed that. I know we've discussed ways to try to reduce the incidence of it, but that's just brain storming surely?

Stu seriously, don't spend time worrying about what 'people' (as in the usual faceless THEM) might draw as a conclusion. If all we ever read was 100% success stories it would be soooo easy to think we failed big time eh! 

Ade


----------



## berksmike

Lovely mystie froglets Stu - whats your average morphing time for these would you say? Have read they can take much longer than other species.
They are definitely on my wishlist tho - have always loved them.
Getting some new racking tomorrow so you never know lol


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## colinm

S.L.S. can occur in all frogs and toads as far as I know.Its more annoying with Dartfrogs though as they only produce small numbers of tadpoles.

I think that its a combination of factors otherwise it would have been ironed out by now.Some clutches will be fine and the others affected which would point to something in the adult females rather than rearing conditions. I dont know I have tried U.V.,vitamins ,heating and cooling the eggs and tadpoles but it is all hit and miss.

Good luck Stu.


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## frogman955

Wolfenrook said:


> Eh? Who said you had major problems with SLS? Missed that. I know we've discussed ways to try to reduce the incidence of it, but that's just brain storming surely?
> 
> Stu seriously, don't spend time worrying about what 'people' (as in the usual faceless THEM) might draw as a conclusion. If all we ever read was 100% success stories it would be soooo easy to think we failed big time eh!
> 
> Ade


Totally agree with you Ade 100%

Mike

Oh and nice frogs Stu :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Eh? Who said you had major problems with SLS? Missed that. I know we've discussed ways to try to reduce the incidence of it, but that's just brain storming surely?
> 
> Stu seriously, don't spend time worrying about what 'people' (as in the usual faceless THEM) might draw as a conclusion. If all we ever read was 100% success stories it would be soooo easy to think we failed big time eh!
> 
> Ade


nah not here (this forum), mate,and not worried just thought i'd nip something in the bud,i got a whiff of really!

yeah this thread is all about us brainstorming mate,all ideas ways to improve and do better by them luvverly frogs,there is a real need to show the good and the bad though Ade,sometimes one can gain way more insight when a problem occurs than when everything is going really well especially with us guys not having done this that long and learning at the rate we are. My hopes have always been that showing it all as Shaz and i get to grips with things will offer others thoughts on how to avoid pitfalls,guys like yourself and many others offer a different view point,sometimes total agreement sometimes a different way of tackling a problem,tis all good mate.

ere thought i'd ask did you see much in the way of eggs with this wet weekend,we got luecs and specials both the first for a while although i think i nabbed a special female just as she was starting to egg eat,we'll have to watch them methinks
Stu


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## Wolfenrook

Not a one Stu. Lots of calling (as usual), but no eggs THAT I CAN FIND. lol Spotted 2 of my FG Amazonica in a film pot earier today though, so hoping. The Amazonica/Variabillis/Vents though have started getting sneaky and hiding them in broms where I can't get at them... The first I know about it is when I see a male transporting, he then goes and hides it again never to be seen again! Getting sooo close on swapping my broms for liliputiana ones so they can fit in them. lol

Ade


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## soundstounite

berksmike said:


> Lovely mystie froglets Stu - whats your average morphing time for these would you say? Have read they can take much longer than other species.
> They are definitely on my wishlist tho - have always loved them.
> Getting some new racking tomorrow so you never know lol


Hey Mike, soonest is 4months...longest is 6 so far,recently a mate long standing in the hobby told me he had never got mysties out in 4 months and I'd have a guess that the live grub speeds things up,so there is a ballpark figure I'm seeing here. So yup its a hell of a time in the water,like nothing else i know of dartwise.
They are fairly slow to grow as froglets too,but funnily enough the ones coming out now, which have taken longer to morph seem to be growing faster as froglets...difficult to appraise that one though.
As to whether you should keep them they should be on your wishlist ,ours are silly bold,its way more than the look of them, the character is really absorbing to watch,we call them spiders because the way they move and stalk is a kind of a slow crawl,although they can jump when they want its the crawl that's characteristic.
Grab them when you have a chance I'd say:2thumb:

Stu


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## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Not a one Stu. Lots of calling (as usual), but no eggs THAT I CAN FIND. lol Spotted 2 of my FG Amazonica in a film pot earier today though, so hoping. The Amazonica/Variabillis/Vents though have started getting sneaky and hiding them in broms where I can't get at them... The first I know about it is when I see a male transporting, he then goes and hides it again never to be seen again! Getting sooo close on swapping my broms for liliputiana ones so they can fit in them. lol
> 
> Ade


Little sods,i was hoping you might get something new having been dry for so long,are they coming out of the broms ok they vents variabilis amazonica thingies :blush:
Stu


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## soundstounite

colinm said:


> S.L.S. can occur in all frogs and toads as far as I know.Its more annoying with Dartfrogs though as they only produce small numbers of tadpoles.
> 
> I think that its a combination of factors otherwise it would have been ironed out by now.Some clutches will be fine and the others affected which would point to something in the adult females rather than rearing conditions. I dont know I have tried U.V.,vitamins ,heating and cooling the eggs and tadpoles but it is all hit and miss.
> 
> Good luck Stu.


Much appreciated Colin its a curse we could all do without!!!! With all the variables betwixt collections i can see why its been so hard to pin down on top of what you've said. I know of cases where it has been completely reverse by the introduction of bimonthly...ie once every two weeks, addition of vit A to the parent diet,which we have implimented,i'm really hoping your wrong in a way Colin and it is not just down to the parents...that might give me a better chance of upping the odds with these young mysties growing in the water,kind of a way of being optimistic if you like,although my homework as i've just said, points towards you being right. The worst of it is as I've just mentioned to Mike(berks) is how long the mysties are actually in the water,its just such a length of time,which of course means actions now with the parents will not have fruition till sometime in late summer. It also means that after last summer of giving the mystie parents loadsa wild grub, i still didn't get the diet good enough to overcome this. Maybe this one will take until this time next year before i really know if any changes made (ie vit A) have any real affect, just so many parameters to think on and add together.

Stabbing in the dark springs to mind 
thanks for your thoughts
Stu


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## berksmike

soundstounite said:


> Hey Mike, soonest is 4months...longest is 6 so far,recently a mate long standing in the hobby told me he had never got mysties out in 4 months and I'd have a guess that the live grub speeds things up,so there is a ballpark figure I'm seeing here. So yup its a hell of a time in the water,like nothing else i know of dartwise.
> They are fairly slow to grow as froglets too,but funnily enough the ones coming out now, which have taken longer to morph seem to be growing faster as froglets...difficult to appraise that one though.
> As to whether you should keep them they should be on your wishlist ,ours are silly bold,its way more than the look of them, the character is really absorbing to watch,we call them spiders because the way they move and stalk is a kind of a slow crawl,although they can jump when they want its the crawl that's characteristic.
> Grab them when you have a chance I'd say:2thumb:
> 
> Stu


They are definitely next on my list Stu
Once this new racking up gonna get going on a viv
What livefoods you use for tads? I supplement my dry tad food with vinegar eels and microworm but thats it really. Also throw in fruiut flies on the surface too


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## soundstounite

berksmike said:


> They are definitely next on my list Stu
> Once this new racking up gonna get going on a viv
> What livefoods you use for tads? I supplement my dry tad food with vinegar eels and microworm but thats it really. Also throw in fruiut flies on the surface too


I forgot to say thanks on the froglets mike :blush: they are silly cute.

Mike you know abit of my eco leanings,well we have around 10 big water butts on the go mainly for the garden but also we have now harnessed a couple for the darts/tads etc.the rest aren't covered i seed them with leaves and get mossi midge gnat larvea and also live blood worms,around 5/6 different types i guess,so all harvested here all natives.All other species bred so far nail everything with ease,the mysties have to be cajoled abit into taking the bloodworms,they don't want to be very big either at first,yeah i know feeding tads by hand with tweezers:blush:.what fascinates me is they do this little tailwagging thing as they get excited about the food in front of them and hover over live grub on the bottom as well, then grab stuff and go into full attack mode shaking and darting about holding the grub,they are very able to catch mosi larvea though so as the summer progresses and numbers get higher and easier to harvest i have taken to using the old faithful turkey baster suck up 4-6 and pop them in much quicker. 
Damn the humble turkey baster has some uses in a dart room also great for separating a duff egg as well as the obvious water changes in glasses
Stu


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## berksmike

Thats a goos idea mate
Have used daphnia before but the culture crashed and I havent bothered to restart one yet.
What size viv have you got yours in? Have spoken to someone previously about them and they said they treated them care wise like leucs


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## Wolfenrook

Heh Stu.

Finally got a decent batch of eggs out of my French Guyana today, 8 eggs all viable and fertile. I've put them in a petri and left them in with the parents this time, I have found using my draw system that I lose nearly all of my eggs to mould, where when I was unprepared and just put the petri dishes in the viv ALL of the eggs would turn into tadpoles. My theory is the vivs are warmer, and also that the draws don't let light in. Fingers crossed I go back to the good egg results I was getting when I was totally unprepared. lol

As to the ones they hide and try to rear themselves, I don't get ANY froglets from them bud. I don't think the tads get enough food when left like this basically.

Oh and back on the topic of mysties, I was thinking of getting some. I changed my mind though now I see more of my Ancon Hill Auratus. They'd take up space I can use for more pums, plus I don't think I can cope with more eggs and tads to have to rear.... lol

Ade


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## berksmike

How bold are your auratus Ade? Their reputation for shyness has always put me off a bit


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## berksmike

Wolfenrook said:


> Heh Stu.
> 
> Finally got a decent batch of eggs out of my French Guyana today, 8 eggs all viable and fertile. I've put them in a petri and left them in with the parents this time, I have found using my draw system that I lose nearly all of my eggs to mould, where when I was unprepared and just put the petri dishes in the viv ALL of the eggs would turn into tadpoles. My theory is the vivs are warmer, and also that the draws don't let light in. Fingers crossed I go back to the good egg results I was getting when I was totally unprepared. lol
> 
> As to the ones they hide and try to rear themselves, I don't get ANY froglets from them bud. I don't think the tads get enough food when left like this basically.
> 
> Oh and back on the topic of mysties, I was thinking of getting some. I changed my mind though now I see more of my Ancon Hill Auratus. They'd take up space I can use for more pums, plus I don't think I can cope with more eggs and tads to have to rear.... lol
> 
> Ade


Used to have this problem a lot myself with mould but then I started rinsing pulled eggs in strong tadpole tea (alder, indian almond and banana leaf) and it really seemed to really help keep the mould at bay


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## soundstounite

berksmike said:


> Thats a goos idea mate
> Have used daphnia before but the culture crashed and I havent bothered to restart one yet.
> What size viv have you got yours in? Have spoken to someone previously about them and they said they treated them care wise like leucs


4 in a 60 cube Mike but the viv could take more i think...maybe abit dryer than leucs,maybe more uvb...cliff face altitude an all.mike the luecs viv and the mysties viv are side by side so temps should be essentially the same,reading would lead one to the conclusion that maybe leucs should be abit warmer than mysties...what can i say..both tanks are breeding,although i do have this sls in the mysties, mind who know what the cause is as above. I too have thought about daphnia mate ,but i'm so warey of what comes with stuff!! What wild grub i do use is now proven without issue,so i'm sort of taking what nature gives us,Im pretty sure on an anecdotal level that it has an effect on morphout times and that it doesn't cause problems that overfeeding with man made grub could do...

Oh for everyone that is thinking of using uvb, a myth was busted for me lastnight by a guy that works in lighting in the states....Todd(in probably one of the best frogrooms on the planet... John this will be very interesting for you). Uvb does pass through our mesh it seems..see permalink 488 here
Sports_doc Frog Room- Picture Update - Page 50 - Dendroboard

Now that's a dartroom!!!!!!!!!!:gasp:
regards
Stu


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## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Heh Stu.
> 
> Finally got a decent batch of eggs out of my French Guyana today, 8 eggs all viable and fertile. I've put them in a petri and left them in with the parents this time, I have found using my draw system that I lose nearly all of my eggs to mould, where when I was unprepared and just put the petri dishes in the viv ALL of the eggs would turn into tadpoles. My theory is the vivs are warmer, and also that the draws don't let light in. Fingers crossed I go back to the good egg results I was getting when I was totally unprepared. lol
> 
> As to the ones they hide and try to rear themselves, I don't get ANY froglets from them bud. I don't think the tads get enough food when left like this basically.
> 
> Oh and back on the topic of mysties, I was thinking of getting some. I changed my mind though now I see more of my Ancon Hill Auratus. They'd take up space I can use for more pums, plus I don't think I can cope with more eggs and tads to have to rear.... lol
> 
> Ade


hey dude,well first bloody ace and the vents eggs and proper good luck there kiddo
Second,just shows how different set ups give different results,i am more likely to loose eggs left in viv to mould....i remove and place in a glass (filmcan) or petri and then pop in a tupperware with water in it and a loose fitting lid,very very rarely see any problems with mould...figure that,total opposites almost.I'll add we just use the usual rainwater...no methyl blue,but they do get light,I'm
don't sem to lose many clutches to mould at all to be fair,but definately in viv is more likely.
Rearing mysties is definitely the biggest devotion of time i have come across so far Ade without doubt ,4-6 months is a damn long time of daily feeding (possible water changes),but when one of those little guys comes out good mate words just fail me,so if anyone is short on time then maybe mysties are not the frog to try and breed,still up there for us though,mind we are abit nuts about the artificial rearing ...doesn't mean i can't wait to see oophaga here...i really can't wait to see all that you guys are whitnessing
erm gotta go.....tadpoles...LMFAO:mf_dribble:
Stu


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## Gaz1987

Stu just a suggestion but it sounds like you may be loosing eggs to mould in the viv due to them not being damp enough maybe try leaving some in the viv and give them a light mist 2 or 3 times a day just to see how they get on compared to the others you have had in the vivs before. Just a suggestion but it might be the cause.


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## soundstounite

Gaz1987 said:


> Stu just a suggestion but it sounds like you may be loosing eggs to mould in the viv due to them not being damp enough maybe try leaving some in the viv and give them a light mist 2 or 3 times a day just to see how they get on compared to the others you have had in the vivs before. Just a suggestion but it might be the cause.


Hey bro ya good,long time no speak!1 buddy,thanks for the thoughts mate...taken on board,thanks!!:2thumb: Gaz we don't really lose alot and most we pull as you can imagine with the species we care for,at pres,but going to be very useful as we get deeper in to this.Gaz shouldn't this really be taken care of by the male in most cases?I have to say we have had both mysties and tincs now go full term inviv and be transported,its quite rare that we lose any eggs to mould,just more likely to be inviv,but we have seen a few clutches now to be sure.Our normal routine is to pull the day after laying there by giving the male chance to sort his end out,i pulled a couple of SB clutches abit early i believe way back,so have taken to this method.
Gary your experiance,wisdom and thoughts are always welcome here mate
thankyou,oh if you speak to Darren before me say hi and tell him summersi are getting real close i feel, had some eggs recently(yup moulded :whistling2 but hopefully getting closer,female comes to see us feed the kids now sometimes.... they are ace
Stu


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## Wolfenrook

That's what I do Gaz. I just pop the petri in the viv and mist them about once a day. They do WAY better than in my little plastic draws (I have wet kitchen roll in that, as I found it stayed wet longer than putting water in the draws. lol). If going back to the in viv method doesn't help my next stop I am going to try methyl blue. I wait 24 hours before pulling a clutch these days, having learned the hard way. I once pulled a clutch that still had visible sperm on them, lost the lot.... I only pulled these today because the idiot male was trying to get another female into the same film pot as these eggs that were laid yesterday. The poor gray legged male doesn't get a look in, the blue legged male gets both girls. The girls have blue legs too, suggesting that blue legged females prefer blue legged males.

To reply to your question Mike, when I first had them they were super shy, I NEVER saw them. I swapped their viv with my Azureas though so they have one very heavily grown in with a lot of wood etc, shifted the lighting around so only half the viv has lights over it, and now I see them quite a bit. Still not tinctorius bold, but I see them at least a few times a day, especially when I feed them. Ancon Hill auratus though seem to be on the shy end of the auratus shyness scale. lol

Stu, yeah, this is gonna sound insane but my vents have a similar time frame. They take a good six months from eggs to froglets at least. When they do finally morph out though they are good strong frogs. My tincs were positively zoomy in comparison. I have NO desire to have even more eggs etc to deal with though, all the tad systems etc I'd need to cope with more, that's space I can fit pums into. lol Telling you Stu, once you get into pums you wont look back!

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> That's what I do Gaz. I just pop the petri in the viv and mist them about once a day. They do WAY better than in my little plastic draws (I have wet kitchen roll in that, as I found it stayed wet longer than putting water in the draws. lol). If going back to the in viv method doesn't help my next stop I am going to try methyl blue. I wait 24 hours before pulling a clutch these days, having learned the hard way. I once pulled a clutch that still had visible sperm on them, lost the lot.... I only pulled these today because the idiot male was trying to get another female into the same film pot as these eggs that were laid yesterday. The poor gray legged male doesn't get a look in, the blue legged male gets both girls. The girls have blue legs too, suggesting that blue legged females prefer blue legged males.
> 
> To reply to your question Mike, when I first had them they were super shy, I NEVER saw them. I swapped their viv with my Azureas though so they have one very heavily grown in with a lot of wood etc, shifted the lighting around so only half the viv has lights over it, and now I see them quite a bit. Still not tinctorius bold, but I see them at least a few times a day, especially when I feed them. Ancon Hill auratus though seem to be on the shy end of the auratus shyness scale. lol
> 
> Stu, yeah, this is gonna sound insane but my vents have a similar time frame. They take a good six months from eggs to froglets at least. When they do finally morph out though they are good strong frogs. My tincs were positively zoomy in comparison. I have NO desire to have even more eggs etc to deal with though, all the tad systems etc I'd need to cope with more, that's space I can fit pums into. lol Telling you Stu, once you get into pums you wont look back!
> 
> Ade


Hey mate
On the auratus just had a note back from a guy that had some of our kids seems they are all settling in well and quite visable,maybe the rearing has something to do with it ,coupled with the cover requirement as above that you've mentioned, we have some more specials coming out now the first 2 weeks older now i guess is now a jawdropingly beautiful blue proper stunning. 
I'm curious as to how they will compare size wise to the adults now which are a good bit smaller than the SB's,going to be interesting this on the rearing to see how they compare.

Buddy i'm stunned on the vents,what were your water temps aprox. I thought only mysties took this length of time..learn something new every day!!!!
Well the pums will come for sure,as with all these frogs Ade we have to keep them to really know whether they are the ones we really desire i suppose. Space will be the limiting factor for years i think ,but definitely will have cems,thats always been going to happen....then well who knows really,its very conceiveable that i might catch the same bug as you guys,although the burning desire has always been something abit bigger and stupidly expensive, frankly just really enjoying the malarky we have already caused,its still so early for us yet.
Stu


----------



## berksmike

Wolfenrook said:


> To reply to your question Mike, when I first had them they were super shy, I NEVER saw them. I swapped their viv with my Azureas though so they have one very heavily grown in with a lot of wood etc, shifted the lighting around so only half the viv has lights over it, and now I see them quite a bit. Still not tinctorius bold, but I see them at least a few times a day, especially when I feed them. Ancon Hill auratus though seem to be on the shy end of the auratus shyness scale. lol
> 
> Ade


well at least they can be tempted out in a well planted viv! The reported shyness always put me off but some of the morphs are stunning


----------



## Wolfenrook

soundstounite said:


> Hey mate
> On the auratus just had a note back from a guy that had some of our kids seems they are all settling in well and quite visable,maybe the rearing has something to do with it ,coupled with the cover requirement as above that you've mentioned, we have some more specials coming out now the first 2 weeks older now i guess is now a jawdropingly beautiful blue proper stunning.
> I'm curious as to how they will compare size wise to the adults now which are a good bit smaller than the SB's,going to be interesting this on the rearing to see how they compare.
> 
> Buddy i'm stunned on the vents,what were your water temps aprox. I thought only mysties took this length of time..learn something new every day!!!!
> Well the pums will come for sure,as with all these frogs Ade we have to keep them to really know whether they are the ones we really desire i suppose. Space will be the limiting factor for years i think ,but definitely will have cems,thats always been going to happen....then well who knows really,its very conceiveable that i might catch the same bug as you guys,although the burning desire has always been something abit bigger and stupidly expensive, frankly just really enjoying the malarky we have already caused,its still so early for us yet.
> Stu


I've been maintaining water temps at 24 degrees C Stu. I've turned it up to 26 now though as they really are taking far too long, even once they get back legs it's an age before their front ones finally pop...

Oh and you know how we were talking about how my Borja Ridge vents/variabillis have been hiding their eggs and tadpoles, but that I never get young frogs when they do? Guess what I spotted climbing out of the pond in their viv earlier...:-










Just to prove me wrong... lol

Ade


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> 4 in a 60 cube Mike but the viv could take more i think...maybe abit dryer than leucs,maybe more uvb...cliff face altitude an all.mike the luecs viv and the mysties viv are side by side so temps should be essentially the same,reading would lead one to the conclusion that maybe leucs should be abit warmer than mysties...what can i say..both tanks are breeding,although i do have this sls in the mysties, mind who know what the cause is as above. I too have thought about daphnia mate ,but i'm so warey of what comes with stuff!! What wild grub i do use is now proven without issue,so i'm sort of taking what nature gives us,Im pretty sure on an anecdotal level that it has an effect on morphout times and that it doesn't cause problems that overfeeding with man made grub could do...
> 
> *Oh for everyone that is thinking of using uvb, a myth was busted for me lastnight by a guy that works in lighting in the states....Todd(in probably one of the best frogrooms on the planet... John this will be very interesting for you). Uvb does pass through our mesh it seems..see permalink 488 here
> Sports_doc Frog Room- Picture Update - Page 50 - Dendroboard* Now that's a dartroom!!!!!!!!!!:gasp:
> regards
> Stu


That's *really* interesting- and addresses some of the concerns I have about using UV with 'phibs. Oh, and Stu, *we* love your Euro humour as well! :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> I've been maintaining water temps at 24 degrees C Stu. I've turned it up to 26 now though as they really are taking far too long, even once they get back legs it's an age before their front ones finally pop...
> 
> Oh and you know how we were talking about how my Borja Ridge vents/variabillis have been hiding their eggs and tadpoles, but that I never get young frogs when they do? Guess what I spotted climbing out of the pond in their viv earlier...:-
> 
> image
> 
> Just to prove me wrong... lol
> 
> Ade


Ha sometimes its very cool to be wrong...sneaky buggers....:lol2:
As above I'm really surprised on this morphout time Ade and your water temps are not out, damn i'd love to know if this is usual,do you know what time period other breeders cite on their's,all i can find is in my Lotters book...60-75 days...but no mention of morph so this figure could be no use whatsoever !
very cool on the Borja mate thanks for this....can't beat seeing a new little guy just pop up unexpected,well ok this one's timing is immpecable ...congrats
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> That's *really* interesting- and addresses some of the concerns I have about using UV with 'phibs. Oh, and Stu, *we* love your Euro humour as well! :lol2:


Almost everything i've read about the mesh small enough to keep a ff in says it will clobber uvb to any usable level,for the frogs, Ron. Real learned folks have told me this, but Todd's meter will be accurate for sure.I'm really glad we went with this top design, we cobbled up ie mesh optiwhite and normal glass,as it gives the frogs the choice,its that usual simple logic i guess,build to the frog every which way ya can. I'm very fortunate to be able to do this from scratch i suppose (although the skills were hard won and i went and got 'em) as it gives me massive options when building a tank (viv) ...the thought process has already started before i knock up the glass...do i want this to be a bit dryer...widen that top vent just abit,do they want maybe more uvb make the back bit a bit wider,floor abit dryer slightly steeper slope not much variation and not enough knowledge but little bits to try and ponder on and see how they pan out,,,detail huh :bash: 
Euro humour......WTF does that mean.....LMFAO...man at least they got it,one of my mates left me a PM it said HILARIOUS as the title.... underneath all the script read was HAHAHAHAHA
nice to bring a bit of joy into the world....I'm very serious abut our little frogs,but damn ya gotta have a laugh as well.
Right we are off to move some little mysties, without dropping any:gasp: and to try and convince some just about to morph attachis that they can eat some of the biggest mosi larvea i have ever seen,i guess overwintered,can't beat it
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

soundstounite said:


> Ha sometimes its very cool to be wrong...sneaky buggers....:lol2:
> As above I'm really surprised on this morphout time Ade and your water temps are not out, damn i'd love to know if this is usual,do you know what time period other breeders cite on their's,all i can find is in my Lotters book...60-75 days...but no mention of morph so this figure could be no use whatsoever !
> very cool on the Borja mate thanks for this....can't beat seeing a new little guy just pop up unexpected,well ok this one's timing is immpecable ...congrats
> Stu


Reading about on Dendroboard Stu (Ventrimaculatus tads and the time it takes to morph. - Dendroboard) it looks like anything from 6 months to 9 months is quite normal for vents. I know, it's a shocking amount of time for such a tiny frog. Especially compared to how quickly my tinctorius regina morphed out. Pain in the bum though given how many tadpoles I end up with stuck in my tadpole system. I am just thankful that they morph out healthy.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Reading about on Dendroboard Stu (Ventrimaculatus tads and the time it takes to morph. - Dendroboard) it looks like anything from 6 months to 9 months is quite normal for vents. I know, it's a shocking amount of time for such a tiny frog. Especially compared to how quickly my tinctorius regina morphed out. Pain in the bum though given how many tadpoles I end up with stuck in my tadpole system. I am just thankful that they morph out healthy.
> 
> Ade


yeah the last sentence is everything Ade, thanks for the read mate it seems bang on normal for them I'm still amazed !!!! tell ya what I'd love to see what would happen with a daily dose of wild grub,moreso mosi than bloodworms.
I know only too well about the havoc caused by tads that morph in 6 months bless their little spotty hides,and I'm so greatful yours ALL come out good. I watch as you have done a little tinc or auratus hatch 2 ruddy months after a mystie.... grow up grow ruddy legs come ootw and then get to half bloody grown whilst a mystie umms and ahhs over growing a new spot. As was pointed out though in the thread linked,very important that someone is putting in the time to rear these frogs :notworthy: 
Stu 
PS mysties well ours anyway don't seem to get any spots until the back legs are well grown


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Almost everything i've read about the mesh small enough to keep a ff in says it will clobber uvb to any usable level,for the frogs, Ron. Real learned folks have told me this, but Todd's meter will be accurate for sure.I'm really glad we went with this top design, we cobbled up ie mesh optiwhite and normal glass,as it gives the frogs the choice,its that usual simple logic i guess,build to the frog every which way ya can. I'm very fortunate to be able to do this from scratch i suppose (although the skills were hard won and i went and got 'em) as it gives me massive options when building a tank (viv) ...the thought process has already started before i knock up the glass...do i want this to be a bit dryer...widen that top vent just abit,do they want maybe more uvb make the back bit a bit wider,floor abit dryer slightly steeper slope not much variation and not enough knowledge but little bits to try and ponder on and see how they pan out,,,detail huh :bash:
> *Euro humour......WTF does that mean.....LMFAO...man at least they got it,one of my mates left me a PM it said HILARIOUS as the title.... underneath all the script read was HAHAHAHAHA
> nice to bring a bit of joy into the world....I'm very serious abut our little frogs,but damn ya gotta have a laugh as well.
> *Right we are off to move some little mysties, without dropping any:gasp: and to try and convince some just about to morph attachis that they can eat some of the biggest mosi larvea i have ever seen,i guess overwintered,can't beat it
> Stu


I love the American assumption that all Europeans are the same- bless! :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I love the American assumption that all Europeans are the same- bless! :lol2:


that and the fact that we're so small we all know each other,tis funny as hell,i an trying to fight the cause though,the guy whon left me the above message was from Canada....i think its a suburb in new york nr to where the globetrotters come from :Na_Na_Na_Na:
Stu


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## soundstounite

Some kids...more to come if time allows
Panama special auratus with one that totally doesn't fit,melanistic maybe hell i don't know but i do know its 100% a special,pretty damn strange as all the others are so uniform As usual, colours are not a true depiction, this pale blue is amazing first up the oldest say 2 weeks in front of the rest,but from the same clutch









another (shame as lots of pics haven't uploaded)









the dark fella


















the oldest attachibakka doing well getting fat so our very first tinc on well on the way


















one of the middle guys from the batch morphing out now,still in the water

















and one of the 2 ootw as of yesterday/today









Stu


----------



## Gaz1987

soundstounite said:


> Hey bro ya good,long time no speak!1 buddy,thanks for the thoughts mate...taken on board,thanks!!:2thumb: Gaz we don't really lose alot and most we pull as you can imagine with the species we care for,at pres,but going to be very useful as we get deeper in to this.Gaz shouldn't this really be taken care of by the male in most cases?I have to say we have had both mysties and tincs now go full term inviv and be transported,its quite rare that we lose any eggs to mould,just more likely to be inviv,but we have seen a few clutches now to be sure.Our normal routine is to pull the day after laying there by giving the male chance to sort his end out,i pulled a couple of SB clutches abit early i believe way back,so have taken to this method.
> Gary your experiance,wisdom and thoughts are always welcome here mate
> thankyou,oh if you speak to Darren before me say hi and tell him summersi are getting real close i feel, had some eggs recently(yup moulded :whistling2 but hopefully getting closer,female comes to see us feed the kids now sometimes.... they are ace
> Stu


Hiya im good thanks hope all is good your end. Sorry been busy.

Sometimes if the viv drys out a little too quick the eggs wont stay moist enough even if the male does do his job.

Another thing is maybe the frogs may need a small break from breeding eggs sometimes start going bad when the frogs need a break.

Darren told me lol. Good work though


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## wolly dartfrog

Love the new pics stu, well done :2thumb: especially love the dark fella do you know why he's like that or is it a mystery :lol2:

Warren


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## soundstounite

Gaz1987 said:


> Hiya im good thanks hope all is good your end. Sorry been busy.
> 
> Sometimes if the viv drys out a little too quick the eggs wont stay moist enough even if the male does do his job.
> 
> Another thing is maybe the frogs may need a small break from breeding eggs sometimes start going bad when the frogs need a break.
> 
> Darren told me lol. Good work though


No worries mate,yeah the early breeders sb and mysties have had a good ol layoff thanks to your kind advice took some doing to get them to stop though mate thats for sure. We got the mysties down to 3 clutches in 3 months i think. I'm a huge believer in them having downtime Gaz,just gotta be so important for the females!!!
the specials and leucs throw eggs every now and then,which is so unlike the superblues mysties and the attachis. We are gonna stop setting attachis very soon ,now that we know that this 2nd clutch have morphed out good
I know she is big but hell she has laid alot in a short time frame,
be lucky dude
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

wolly dartfrog said:


> Love the new pics stu, well done :2thumb: especially love the dark fella do you know why he's like that or is it a mystery :lol2:
> 
> Warren


thanks buddy,well as far as i know the specials should be fairly uniform in colour,ie the pale blue,so i'm guessing a couple of recessive genes are lurking,possibly melanistic which have caused this. Our suberblues,they go by other names too, are known for producing a range of colour patterns,so their variation is expected...beyond that yup mystery:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> thanks buddy,well as far as i know the specials should be fairly uniform in colour,ie the pale blue,so i'm guessing a couple of recessive genes are lurking,possibly melanistic which have caused this. Our suberblues,they go by other names too, are known for producing a range of colour patterns,so their variation is expected...beyond that yup mystery:2thumb:
> Stu


Aren't melanistic traits normally dominant? It's been a few years since I did genetics though- even *if* darts follow the usual rules! :blush:


----------



## Wolfenrook

soundstounite said:


> thanks buddy,well as far as i know the specials should be fairly uniform in colour,ie the pale blue,so i'm guessing a couple of recessive genes are lurking,possibly melanistic which have caused this. Our suberblues,they go by other names too, are known for producing a range of colour patterns,so their variation is expected...beyond that yup mystery:2thumb:
> Stu


I would say that rather than having a gene for been melanistic it has a gene for much reduced blue pigmentation, which would fit better with been a recessive trait. Given the base colour of them seems to be very dark/black any way, it looks more like the blue is faded than been extra black. Just my opinion anyway. Still lovely frogs. Since I figured the Ancon Hill out I've been left a very soft spot for auratus, but I'm sticking with pums now, they're less work. :lol2:

Ade


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> that and the fact that we're so small we all know each other,tis funny as hell,i an trying to fight the cause though,the guy whon left me the above message was from Canada....i think its a suburb in new york nr to where the globetrotters come from :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> Stu


Lol had a thought about this: In my travelling days, I learned some useful lessons- if in doubt, call our North American chums Canadian (the Northwest American accent is very similar) and our Antipodian mates New Zealanders. The Americans and Australians don't care, but the Canadians and NZers will either be horrendously insulted (if you mistake them for the two 'AAs'), or really pleased (if you noticed, or pretended to notice, the difference). 

Ban Ki Moon can just hand over his job now...:whistling2:


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## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Aren't melanistic traits normally dominant? It's been a few years since I did genetics though- even *if* darts follow the usual rules! :blush:


buddy i can't remember either,last thing i did gene wise was breed the first intentional magpie calls dux here, due to the work of F.M. Lancaster i believe 
i guess i know enough to say its a recessive trait,beyond that,well i guess a dart guy doesn't need to know...we if we follow the protocols of dartdom,we breed away from a mutant...ie pr it to a normal variant as would happen most likely in nature....i'm LMAO as i say we don't go all royal python or leopard gex on 'em. then the reason for why dart guys do this and the whole thing takes a left turn:lol2:
If my studies are correct and who knows with me Ron,:2thumb: then Washamnn and Birkanham brought in 8 frogs...from these all the panama specials are descended,the dartworld still has washmann line frogs and the other dude,but the two guys interchanged individuals so...well this fits.... its a mess:lol2: So would one as a layman expect an odd recessive trait to crop up yeah its always going to happen.
Once again back to the chestnut of papers and studbooks or nonsense,
Once again more learned folks are welcome to correct,but i'll ask for some proof. 
So in essence few folks would be able to tell us how dart genes work i would suppose...we don't need to know,as keepers beacuase we breed them out,
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> I would say that rather than having a gene for been melanistic it has a gene for much reduced blue pigmentation, which would fit better with been a recessive trait. Given the base colour of them seems to be very dark/black any way, it looks more like the blue is faded than been extra black. Just my opinion anyway. Still lovely frogs. Since I figured the Ancon Hill out I've been left a very soft spot for auratus, but I'm sticking with pums now, they're less work. :lol2:
> 
> Ade


Buddy you may well be right,it is incredibly dark thats for sure almost disappears against an oakleaf,we see him by movement as opposed to the electric pale blue of the others. Ade your post has made me think actually these bronze auratus morphs which include the sb's actually get much paler the older they get morphouts are jet black with the colour aswell, by the time they have got to full size this is a brown.Specials are renowned for this brown fading out to a silver grey over a 2/3yr period(its already happening),if the little fella keeps going and starts feeding then i'd love to see where this goes in that time frame.
Well if what i know so far is true then auratus are a damn site less work than your vents or our mysties mate,I'm starting to date each tad now so i'll yet an accurate picture of morphout times,for sure data for an SB is buried in this thread...lmao I kinda like the work though mate...its that hands on thing of being so close to your animals like opening an incubator door and knowing all those little birds have been hatched by you not their mum...i adore that,i want to see the pums mate i want to see them do the whole thing who wouldn't,same with the ranitomeya, but I'b be a liar to say i don't...we don't relish the dendros. Shaz hadn't seen any of this just one yr ago...what a blast for her to see this stuff already
Stu


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## soundstounite

Some more of those kids
specials




























note that difference when the tad starts eating
some mysties
look for spot colour in the very very young plus the shape













































bit older












































the other attachi pics i lost earlier

















oh and couldn't miss these little characters out




































Stu


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## soundstounite

Please forgive the error the photos are small on photo bucket,and i was trying to get them all down pretty quick,also shows to the keen eye how false colour is in photograph land....now who's going to spot it:whistling2:
Apologies
Stu


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## marcuswinner1

soundstounite said:


> Please forgive the error the photos are small on photo bucket,and i was trying to get them all down pretty quick,also shows to the keen eye how false colour is in photograph land....now who's going to spot it:whistling2:
> Apologies
> Stu


Is the first pic a SB Stu?


----------



## Wolfenrook

All gorgeous bud!

If I am honest, it's not really the 'work' that bothers me, it's the huge amount of space taken up by the rearing equipment. That's space where I could put either adult vivs or rearing vivs, rather than rubs full of water. lol If I am honest, I probably wouldn't go for vents again, they just spend tooooo long in the water but produce a lot of eggs, most of which become tadpoles unless you get things wrong. I currently have 8 new eggs well on the way to been tadpoles now, but only 6 cups left in my tadpole system, seriously hoping that at least a couple of the tads with bag legs pop their front ones soon and can be moved into a morph out container. I'm not going to pull any more eggs or tads though now until I know I will have space for them.

Pums are just soo much more convenient. lol

Ade


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## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> Is the first pic a SB Stu?


yeah bang on mate particularly apt you should spot it,as i was trying to get a snap of an SB for you...i've nicknamed him/her blue nose because well tis exactly that, one of the darker ones with a bright blue nose. Plus markings are all wrong for a very very young frog
Good spot buddy:no1:
Stu


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## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> All gorgeous bud!
> 
> If I am honest, it's not really the 'work' that bothers me, it's the huge amount of space taken up by the rearing equipment. That's space where I could put either adult vivs or rearing vivs, rather than rubs full of water. lol If I am honest, I probably wouldn't go for vents again, they just spend tooooo long in the water but produce a lot of eggs, most of which become tadpoles unless you get things wrong. I currently have 8 new eggs well on the way to been tadpoles now, but only 6 cups left in my tadpole system, seriously hoping that at least a couple of the tads with bag legs pop their front ones soon and can be moved into a morph out container. I'm not going to pull any more eggs or tads though now until I know I will have space for them.
> 
> Pums are just soo much more convenient. lol
> 
> Ade


thankyou Ade little sweathearts they are. Yeah i so hear you on the space its a massive factor with non oophaga (plus those egg feeding ranitomeya). Its a factor that most beginners will underestimate thats for sure. We always had plans but i can't say i really believed that we would have so many frogs breeding so quick,on any level we both didn't see it coming...who would. Oneday we'll figure it all out:lol2:
Stu


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## Wolfenrook

Aye. Luckily when we move some of the other shelves on the bottom part of my racks should become free as we have more indoor storage in the new place. So I'll probably whip up at least 1 more tad system, will have to go with in internal filter next time around though, externals just make up for even more space used, pipes everywhere etc...

Ade


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## Fletch1988

soundstounite said:


> All good guys,and a luvverly trip to the dentist,which tuned into a total 'mare means that i have already have the head from hell,just wish i had the party before hand and lots of alcohol:bash:.
> Guys,much appreciated all this,i'm going to stick some pics up of some little folks 'well cause basically i can't think straight and they fill me with joy,
> 
> Our very first Attachi Oh man T'was feeding tonite and those little toes were going...ahh bless,NB tummy:no1:if we loose this now I'll be well cheesed off with moi!!!
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> Our very first panama special auratus,just OOTW,not feeding yet again NB width
> image
> love that pale blue
> 
> image
> now some more mysties,an obsevation,mysties put on some weight with less grub than auratus, leucs and tincs,although we haven't lost a mystie i have been told others have through overfeeding, which is strange,but we are slightly cautious now on hearing of this,so some fat mysties,which are genuinely being fed way less than the other guys.I still want that round tummy on a little froglet,damn they are so small and i need to see that they are not being malnourished. Could be that mysties move so different than the other tinc clad, we have reared so far, that they simply expend less energy,so there is something to think deep on from a guy that can't think much at the mo. for the above reason :bash:
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> 
> 
> Stu


Found them theyre corkers pm me prices please


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## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Aye. Luckily when we move some of the other shelves on the bottom part of my racks should become free as we have more indoor storage in the new place. So I'll probably whip up at least 1 more tad system, will have to go with in internal filter next time around though, externals just make up for even more space used, pipes everywhere etc...
> 
> Ade


I guess the flip side is one has more space for tads with and external filter,i don't think we'll ever have enough space in our little gaff it has to be said,maybe one day we'll do it all again from scratch outside ,but that time is long off.
oh Cheers fletch

Been very busy of late with it all so not posted that much,the ball keeps rolling and gradually everything we do to do with the frogs is getting larger. So far we have not been caught short on any feeder but they still way heavy on my mind especially springtails,with little frogs about all over.Recently I'm finding more and more success with damn simple charcoal water and yeast as the feedstuff.It seems to cut down on the problems with mites, and the cultures last much longer,as long as one doesn't over feed,the real secret seems to be regular changes of water,probably diluting the said inhibitors that springs seem to produce that lead to crashes.I'm still not convinced totally, that we are there yet,its always going to be a work in progress,but I'm finding less work and real good results with ever larger cultures of this all important feeder for young darts.The compo bins are also starting to really kick off again,lmao every little helps. We have a new batch of attachis about to morph ,i guess i'll pop some pics up as they come out lets hope for good legs which i think will happen.So maybe the first clutch was simply never going to be 100% right or maybe the extra graft with the wild grub is paying dividends 
who knows,tis good though.
Spose i better stop wafflin' and go and see how those tads are going along,and the kids and.......

bring it on

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ha no pics again,how cruel is that:lol2:. We have spent,pretty much the whole day doing froggy stuff,my main reason for saying anything is just spending the last hour or so,quietly feeding alot of little tadpoles a selection of live grub,then standing back and watching how they react,how they hunt.I've mentioned this before, i think most dart keepers miss this,they simply chuck in the man made stuff,sit back and miss it. We have a huge hatch of waterboatmen going on in just one water butt,this was today's main course. Utterly wonderful so see that shimmer of a dart tail as tad realises its now not the only inhabitant of a simple glass
wicked
Attachis are going to be good new luecs popping legs a couple of mysties,mayhem,but good mayhem
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Summersi are still messing with us,lots of courting a few days ago ,but again no eggs found,tell me does this look like a smug face


















little leucs are out all good i think,and some attachis coming through good and strong,quite some colour variation with these,of note is the amount of blue on the legs,tank has just a blue band,her fella nothing,we've called him tiger,well he is to put up with her.Sort of hoping for a couple of grey ones in these youngsters,but so far all have yellow backs some with spots and some without.These are 100% pure Mt Attachibakka so its quite enthralling to see the colour variation thats being displayed,in the F1.Oh the 2 tads in the ditch transported by Tank are now one,but its still doing well with no help from us at all,so will be interesting to see what it looks like,and size if the little guy morphs out ok

















Also got another 3 or so specials not far from morphout ,i think we are going to see another dark one by the look of it
Stu


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## Arcadiajohn

Looking good Stu!

John


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Looking good Stu!
> 
> John


cheers john,sorry i'm not keeping up at the moment,shaz and i are becoming dart breeders:mf_dribble:,that my friend takes some time out of your day,Oh dude the new site looks great,i'm rushing again post the guys a link for me if you see this or i will when i stop abit:lol2:

Ha its funny we have a mystie running around with a tad on his back(2 transorpted...somewhere) and so is our suberblue male apparently shaz tells me,damn i haven't even seen it my self let alone take a pic,its going to be really interesting to see if any of these actually make it free range as Mike calls it ....ie reared in DA:lol2: viv.One little attachi is still doing well,although how tank and tiger haven't squished it is beyond me. i have no idea what happened to the first mysties that were transported and damn me we've looked
belucky guys i better move
Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

As per stu's request here is a link to our brand new educational website, featuring many of stu's animals.

I have tried to include as much ground breaking science as possible, we are adding more and more content almost everyday, I really want this to be a one stop reptile and amphibian resource.

Hope you enjoy!

Arcadia Reptile

John


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> As per stu's request here is a link to our brand new educational website, featuring many of stu's animals.
> 
> I have tried to include as much ground breaking science as possible, we are adding more and more content almost everyday, I really want this to be a one stop reptile and amphibian resource.
> 
> Hope you enjoy!
> 
> Arcadia Reptile
> 
> John


John thankyou, much appreciated

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

When we got our first darts,i mentioned just what a profound effect watching them utilising the leaflitter had on me,since then i guess i constantly try and convert folks to this,because its just right for a dart to have this. These pictures are of a group of tiny mysties moved minutes before the photos started,the tub is well stocked with springs and woods. So they have just been moved as tiny froglets,instantly they relax and start hunting,every where there is cover so no stress even though i have just caught them and moved them from the morphout tub,evry where is a hiding space they are safe... so set about doing what mysties do. Oh i sat with my mouth open as the smallest promptly nailed an escaped hydei,maybe 3 or 4 days out of the water,that found its was intothe tub while i was moving.Yes i am the guilty party whom knocked a lid on a hydei culture just before hatch....bugger:lol2:

Use leaflitter for darts...its not rocket science:whistling2:






















































The attachis are coming out really well thick and fast all good little to no losses,and a few specials and luecs
some attachis in the morphout tub,



















Stu


----------



## wilko92

soundstounite said:


> When we got our first darts,i mentioned just what a profound effect watching them utilising the leaflitter had on me,since then i guess i constantly try and convert folks to this,because its just right for a dart to have this. These pictures are of a group of tiny mysties moved minutes before the photos started,the tub is well stocked with springs and woods. So they have just been moved as tiny froglets,instantly they relax and start hunting,every where there is cover so no stress even though i have just caught them and moved them from the morphout tub,evry where is a hiding space they are safe... so set about doing what mysties do. Oh i sat with my mouth open as the smallest promptly nailed an escaped hydei,maybe 3 or 4 days out of the water,that found its was intothe tub while i was moving.Yes i am the guilty party whom knocked a lid on a hydei culture just before hatch....bugger:lol2:
> 
> Use leaflitter for darts...its not rocket science:whistling2:
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> The attachis are coming out really well thick and fast all good little to no losses,and a few specials and luecs
> some attachis in the morphout tub,
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> Stu


 Had alook throught this thread from start to finish.. simply amazing mate lucky frogs! :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

wilko92 said:


> Had alook throught this thread from start to finish.. simply amazing mate lucky frogs! :2thumb:


cheers dude,i guess really its us that are lucky, the amazing thing is these frogs,you'll see
Stu


----------



## wilko92

soundstounite said:


> cheers dude,i guess really its us that are lucky, the amazing thing is these frogs,you'll see
> Stu


 very true indeed! i just seen a clip on dart frogs reering the young in the wild, and the male will call a female to drog an infertile egg in the water for the tadpole to eat? does this happen in captivity (manualy) : victory:


----------



## Wolfenrook

If you keep obligate egg feeders such as oophaga pumilio especially then yes the mum feeds the tads with infertile eggs. It's awesome watching the parental care in any darts, but in pumilios and other egg feeders it's even better as you get to see the whole journey naturally.

Some other frogs are known to sometimes egg feed as well, but it's not guaranteed and not essential.

As always Stu, loving the pics. 

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> If you keep obligate egg feeders such as oophaga pumilio especially then yes the mum feeds the tads with infertile eggs. It's awesome watching the parental care in any darts, but in pumilios and other egg feeders it's even better as you get to see the whole journey naturally.
> 
> Some other frogs are known to sometimes egg feed as well, but it's not guaranteed and not essential.
> 
> As always Stu, loving the pics.
> 
> Ade


Ade's bang on we don't yet keep oophaga but will as soon as things come together for us,its the vanzolini group that are non obilgate egg feeders(thats right isn't it Ade) imis vanzo. and another Ranitomeya ,but hell i can't remember which .
Paul the parental care in dendrobates and excidobates stops with the male transporting a tadpole to a body of water,but its still cool to see that much. Oophaga are for a bit later on in your dart keeping career mate,but nonetheless wonderful to see such advanced care in amphibians all done in a glass box,and frankly we cant wait. Paul have a look at Oophaga histrionica just for the crack,they are very very rare and difficult to breed in our hobby so you wont see many,but jaw droppingly stunning,ha ha and expensive.
Ade thanks on the pics i hope i sold ya on the leaves:lol2:,oh mate saw a stunning group of regina recently,i wasn't allowed them,i had a chat to them and had all 3 up at the glass saying C'mon Shaz:whistling2: Have yours started again yet? our macheto haven't ,I'm sure they are still growing, 
Stu


----------



## wilko92

Wolfenrook said:


> If you keep obligate egg feeders such as oophaga pumilio especially then yes the mum feeds the tads with infertile eggs. It's awesome watching the parental care in any darts, but in pumilios and other egg feeders it's even better as you get to see the whole journey naturally.
> 
> Some other frogs are known to sometimes egg feed as well, but it's not guaranteed and not essential.
> 
> As always Stu, loving the pics.
> 
> Ade





soundstounite said:


> Ade's bang on we don't yet keep oophaga but will as soon as things come together for us,its the vanzolini group that are non obilgate egg feeders(thats right isn't it Ade) imis vanzo. and another Ranitomeya ,but hell i can't remember which .
> Paul the parental care in dendrobates and excidobates stops with the male transporting a tadpole to a body of water,but its still cool to see that much. Oophaga are for a bit later on in your dart keeping career mate,but nonetheless wonderful to see such advanced care in amphibians all done in a glass box,and frankly we cant wait. Paul have a look at Oophaga histrionica just for the crack,they are very very rare and difficult to breed in our hobby so you wont see many,but jaw droppingly stunning,ha ha and expensive.
> Ade thanks on the pics i hope i sold ya on the leaves:lol2:,oh mate saw a stunning group of regina recently,i wasn't allowed them,i had a chat to them and had all 3 up at the glass saying C'mon Shaz:whistling2: Have yours started again yet? our macheto haven't ,I'm sure they are still growing,
> Stu


 Ahh right! i didnt realise that they all took care of there breeding/reering in there own different ways! thats good to know :2thumb: learn something new every day! and stu ill check them out now cheers :no1:


----------



## Wolfenrook

Aye Stu, sounds about right. Although from my experience Variabillis/Amazonica (were ventrimaculata) make terrible parents, that said my Borja Ridge do a far better job than my French Guyana.

I used to think that the 'advancing to pums' was an elitist thing, now I know better. It's just that they are more difficult to rear, which makes getting some experience with others darts a good idea, but once you start keeping them you realise exactly why experienced keepers fall in love with them! If breeding other darts is a nicely iced cake, breeding pums is a nice iced cake with a delicious cherry on top. lol

Stu, you are soooo cheeky pal. You know I was using leaf litter before you got your first darts. Yeah ok, so there wasn't much time between.... lol But yes, leaf litter rocks. I tend not to use it so much for adult tincs these days though, purely because they just wont leave it be, they tend to shove it into the drainage gully and make a right mess with it... 

No more eggs from my Regina still bud, I have a feeling they may prove to be a frog that only breeds during certain months of the year though, so I'm just waiting patiently and counting the days in hope. The 5 young are doing really really well though, pretty much sexable now and I'll probably be selling some of them at BAKS, if not all of them. Hoping my Azureas start for me soon too. Oh and maybe my Alanis now that the 'stunted' one has actually grown to a reasonable size. Not holding much hope for my citronellas, one of them just still doesn't seem quite right.

Oh well, my o. pumilio San Cristobal are seriously making up for it! Lots of froglets in there now, they just keep going! Seriously good parents as well, to the point I can pull a film pot with a tad in and put it back 3 days later and the mum goes straight back to feeding it (discovered accidentally when we moved house, I assure you).

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Aye Stu, sounds about right. Although from my experience Variabillis/Amazonica (were ventrimaculata) make terrible parents, that said my Borja Ridge do a far better job than my French Guyana.
> 
> I used to think that the 'advancing to pums' was an elitist thing, now I know better. It's just that they are more difficult to rear, which makes getting some experience with others darts a good idea, but once you start keeping them you realise exactly why experienced keepers fall in love with them! If breeding other darts is a nicely iced cake, breeding pums is a nice iced cake with a delicious cherry on top. lol
> 
> Stu, you are soooo cheeky pal. You know I was using leaf litter before you got your first darts. Yeah ok, so there wasn't much time between.... lol But yes, leaf litter rocks. I tend not to use it so much for adult tincs these days though, purely because they just wont leave it be, they tend to shove it into the drainage gully and make a right mess with it...
> 
> No more eggs from my Regina still bud, I have a feeling they may prove to be a frog that only breeds during certain months of the year though, so I'm just waiting patiently and counting the days in hope. The 5 young are doing really really well though, pretty much sexable now and I'll probably be selling some of them at BAKS, if not all of them. Hoping my Azureas start for me soon too. Oh and maybe my Alanis now that the 'stunted' one has actually grown to a reasonable size. Not holding much hope for my citronellas, one of them just still doesn't seem quite right.
> 
> Oh well, my o. pumilio San Cristobal are seriously making up for it! Lots of froglets in there now, they just keep going! Seriously good parents as well, to the point I can pull a film pot with a tad in and put it back 3 days later and the mum goes straight back to feeding it (discovered accidentally when we moved house, I assure you).
> 
> Ade


ha yeah i was pulling your leg on the leaflitter i know how long you've used it and how much you think of it as a substrate,i thought it would make you smile.

Maybe its just me i never really saw them as being an elitest frog but always came across what you have stated,really froglets being tricky,until we have kept them i can't go much further,i don't doubt what your saying either about the christa either,you had her on her own for a while didn't you,its wicked when these hard initial starts finally do well.Mike had similar i think with his Cauchero,its also says something about the keeper mate to keep going,,,goodon the pr of ya.
I was hoping with the hot spell and the return to winter:bash: you might just have got lucky with the regina.Well i guess you have a better chance then i with the citronella buddy,but what do you think is wrong with one of them....you said not right,what have you picked up on ?
Stu


----------



## wilko92

Well went and seen stu and shaz today, to get some plants these pictues really dont justify these amazing set ups and the great care taken in rearign the tads etc! and i've also learnt hell of alot today! So thanks stu! very pleasant to meet you both and all the little frogs and tads! :2thumb: top man! paul


----------



## soundstounite

wilko92 said:


> Well went and seen stu and shaz today, to get some plants these pictues really dont justify these amazing set ups and the great care taken in rearign the tads etc! and i've also learnt hell of alot today! So thanks stu! very pleasant to meet you both and all the little frogs and tads! :2thumb: top man! paul


Hey dude, cheers for not telling them about the little tiny mystie that escaped......oops:bash: It was luvverly to met you both, too Hope as always i didn't overload you both, or bore ya.
Thanks for the words,still got more to do yet,had to stop for a pit stop,ie grub
Take care mate hope it all works well,oh mate PM me an email addy please
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

oh just before i get back at it
I used a courier today to get some frogs up to the Mersey, very caring guy called Chris,very well set out van frogs arrived in hours, as they left here all superbly!!!!! as it should be.Chris,drives under the name of AC Reptile Couriers so if you need your phibs moved about with proper great care,this guy is your man.
great job mate thankyou
Stu


----------



## wilko92

soundstounite said:


> Hey dude, cheers for not telling them about the little tiny mystie that escaped......oops:bash: It was luvverly to met you both, too Hope as always i didn't overload you both, or bore ya.
> Thanks for the words,still got more to do yet,had to stop for a pit stop,ie grub
> Take care mate hope it all works well,oh mate PM me an email addy please
> Stu


 No worrys mate, always somethign that will go wrong :lol2: but no harm was done thats the main thing! and i wanst bored at all, i learnt ALOT today very glad i come down to you :2thumb: PM is on itsway :2thumb:
Paul


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## Ron Magpie

Stu, we all want to come and see your project- you're just going to have to open a B&B or something! :lol2:


----------



## frogman955

Ron Magpie said:


> Stu, we all want to come and see your project- you're just going to have to open a B&B or something! :lol2:


Last time I was talking to Stu he was contemplating opening a water sports centre due to all the rain he`s been getting :lol2:.

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Stu, we all want to come and see your project- you're just going to have to open a B&B or something! :lol2:


your bloody welcome mate,i just wish there was more spaces for folks other than frogs in this gaff of ours,especially our frogroom,and we've really only just started breeding in the big scheme,Seriously Ron jump on the bloody Train straight here from dat londun, you have constantly supported us constantly chucked wise words at us,you are one of the 3 folks that said they would be interested in this thread,you really ought to see it,i am being told that the pics don't show it for what it is,although I've treid me best to paint a true pic.
(oh as i type bbc2 emerald band!!!! NOW )
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> your bloody welcome mate,i just wish there was more spaces for folks other than frogs in this gaff of ours,especially our frogroom,and we've really only just started breeding in the big scheme,Seriously Ron jump on the bloody Train straight here from dat londun, you have constantly supported us constantly chucked wise words at us,you are one of the 3 folks that said they would be interested in this thread,you really ought to see it,i am being told that the pics don't show it for what it is,although I've treid me best to paint a true pic.
> (oh as i type bbc2 emerald band!!!! NOW )
> Stu


Seriously thinking about it- I want to meet Scott as well, so maybe I should combine the two sometime.


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Last time I was talking to Stu he was contemplating opening a water sports centre due to all the rain he`s been getting :lol2:.
> 
> Mike


Totally true,it also accounts for the inexaustable supply of eggs that you get if you keep frogs that inhabit a ruddy RAIN forest ,i just want a rest and some bloody sunshine though,:bash::bash::bash:


Last night we had 2 heavily gravid mysties fighting over whom got to spend the night with the male,funny as hell,but quite the most aggression we have ever seen proper hard core fighting,i got some pics ,but no chance to even think about loading let alone posting them,I'll get them up when i can.Also the first ime,that i can recollect,that little Aero our first mytie sold to us as a male has been so involved in breeding,and holding her own against the other female so forcefully,i wish i could have pinned down her clutch,but the scrapping went on till lights out, bugger,and was not really finished today,male still calling ,but little time for observation...double bugger:lol2:
Stu


----------



## wilko92

soundstounite said:


> Totally true,it also accounts for the inexaustable supply of eggs that you get if you keep frogs that inhabit a ruddy RAIN forest ,i just want a rest and some bloody sunshine though,:bash::bash::bash:
> 
> 
> Last night we had 2 heavily gravid mysties fighting over whom got to spend the night with the male,funny as hell,but quite the most aggression we have ever seen proper hard core fighting,i got some pics ,but no chance to even think about loading let alone posting them,I'll get them up when i can.Also the first ime,that i can recollect,that little Aero our first mytie sold to us as a male has been so involved in breeding,and holding her own against the other female so forcefully,i wish i could have pinned down her clutch,but the scrapping went on till lights out, bugger,and was not really finished today,male still calling ,but little time for observation...double bugger:lol2:
> Stu


 That little guy was at it all the time i was there :lol2: really am glad i come today mate! keep up the good work :no1:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Seriously thinking about it- I want to meet Scott as well, so maybe I should combine the two sometime.


Absolutely,we are about 5 mins apart,wait till his opening ceremony of his new room,i can get ya from station a few mins away also. We are on the paddington to hereford line then we can go and harrang Scott:lol2:....totally simple,hope he doesn't mind me inviting you over lmao,but it would be very easy and straight forward Ron
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Absolutely,we are about 5 mins apart,wait till his opening ceremony of his new room,i can get ya from station a few mins away also. We are on the paddington to hereford line then we can go and harrang Scott:lol2:....totally simple,hope he doesn't mind me inviting you over lmao,but it would be very easy and straight forward Ron
> Stu


Lol- don't think that would be a problem- Scott and I have been chatting for ages. I'll have to see when I can get some sensible time off when I also have some dosh, lol- I do know that I'm not allowed any leave during the Olympics- it directly affects my client group and area.


----------



## soundstounite

wilko92 said:


> That little guy was at it all the time i was there :lol2: really am glad i come today mate! keep up the good work :no1:


Paul your totally welcome mate our pleasure,I'm no expert only a beginner ,but its such a good thing to see a set up working,one gets so much from looking and thinking and being able to ask about it.I would recommend anyone thinking of darts to find a local breeder and go and have a chat,so much to be gleaned from this


oh yeah Mr mystie has a headache,and we have 2 clutches of eggs one no embryos unfortunately...maybe a snail ,but weird because two cans are really close and the other can has say 5 day old embryos developing in it. A real shame as we would all know if a male mystie could fertilise 2 separate clutches from 2 females inside a 24hr period,which is something i've never come across...anyone have an answer,pics will follow,:2thumb::2thumb:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Lol- don't think that would be a problem- Scott and I have been chatting for ages. I'll have to see when I can get some sensible time off when I also have some dosh, lol- I do know that I'm not allowed any leave during the Olympics- it directly affects my client group and area.


No rush mate i think this mayhem will continue for a while yet:whistling2::lol2::lol2: Heaven forbid i might even get the damn summersi breeding... i think we are real close Ron...real close!! just a tiny bit of the jigsaw to out in place,but i'm not totally sure what that is.I very nearly got properly caught today had an attachi nearly leave the water before i got there,then moved 6 more and a couple or 3 mysties....just to be sure:blush:
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> No rush mate i think this mayhem will continue for a while yet:whistling2::lol2::lol2: Heaven forbid i might even get the damn summersi breeding... i think we are real close Ron...real close!! just a tiny bit of the jigsaw to out in place,but i'm not totally sure what that is.I very nearly got properly caught today had an attachi nearly leave the water before i got there,then moved 6 more and a couple or 3 mysties....just to be sure:blush:
> Stu


It's really intriguing how tiny changes affect each species- and not just darts. I don't know if you saw my messing about with theories when Reddevil was trying to breed his Asian painted frogs- my idea was (based on what I've seen with other sub-tropical and temperate frogs) that the *female* in particular may need a cooling period to condition her- in a lot of species the male is up for it most of the time- surprise, surprise,but the female may need a bit more time! :lol2:

Maybe we'll find out next year- even if we find that my idea was total rubbish, we'll have learned something!


----------



## wilko92

soundstounite said:


> Paul your totally welcome mate our pleasure,I'm no expert only a beginner ,but its such a good thing to see a set up working,one gets so much from looking and thinking and being able to ask about it.I would recommend anyone thinking of darts to find a local breeder and go and have a chat,so much to be gleaned from this
> 
> 
> oh yeah Mr mystie has a headache,and we have 2 clutches of eggs one no embryos unfortunately...maybe a snail ,but weird because two cans are really close and the other can has say 5 day old embryos developing in it. A real shame as we would all know if a male mystie could fertilise 2 separate clutches from 2 females inside a 24hr period,which is something i've never come across...anyone have an answer,pics will follow,:2thumb::2thumb:
> Stu


 The one bromilead had strated to show much more red in the leafs, which im glad about in away as i know for one its not dyeing.. and two that there is enough light level in there :2thumb: also got two carryer bag fulls of oak leaf litter today put a load in the viv and droped some wood louse in there! lets hope it all starts to take off nicely :2thumb: thanks again man!  paul


----------



## berksmike

soundstounite said:


> Ade's bang on we don't yet keep oophaga but will as soon as things come together for us,its the vanzolini group that are non obilgate egg feeders(thats right isn't it Ade) imis vanzo. and another Ranitomeya ,but hell i can't remember which .
> Paul the parental care in dendrobates and excidobates stops with the male transporting a tadpole to a body of water,but its still cool to see that much. Oophaga are for a bit later on in your dart keeping career mate,but nonetheless wonderful to see such advanced care in amphibians all done in a glass box,and frankly we cant wait. Paul have a look at Oophaga histrionica just for the crack,they are very very rare and difficult to breed in our hobby so you wont see many,but jaw droppingly stunning,ha ha and expensive.
> Ade thanks on the pics i hope i sold ya on the leaves:lol2:,oh mate saw a stunning group of regina recently,i wasn't allowed them,i had a chat to them and had all 3 up at the glass saying C'mon Shaz:whistling2: Have yours started again yet? our macheto haven't ,I'm sure they are still growing,
> Stu


 
Stu the imis and vanzos are great parents.
I found this fella in a brom in my Chazuta viv:










I knew from the calling they were raising tads but didnt realise they were so advanced. The vanzos are the same but they are not as reluctant to use film cannisters as the chazuta so I usually pull them but have had a froglet appear from a brom in their viv too.


----------



## soundstounite

berksmike said:


> Stu the imis and vanzos are great parents.
> I found this fella in a brom in my Chazuta viv:
> 
> image
> 
> I knew from the calling they were raising tads but didnt realise they were so advanced. The vanzos are the same but they are not as reluctant to use film cannisters as the chazuta so I usually pull them but have had a froglet appear from a brom in their viv too.


Mike thanks for this:2thumb:...i'll come back tomorrow no time,just popped in for a looksee
must dash
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

soundstounite said:


> Mike thanks for this:2thumb:...i'll come back tomorrow no time,just popped in for a looksee
> must dash
> Stu


Hey Mike ,we are yet to see any of this, but will in time,what's your preference to hand rear or leave them do it and why? Ha i can guess some of what you'll say but it really makes for interesting reading for all of us to hear abit more from someone doing it.More congratulations are in order. Another question,if you pull a half grown tad have you experienced any problems with feeding,I've read somewhere that others have experienced this.... that tad is not so interested in other foods once it has had mum's infertile eggs
thanks again
Stu


----------



## snowdragon

your welcome ron to come over plenty room here for sleep over as well just give us a shout 
hugz scot


----------



## berksmike

soundstounite said:


> Hey Mike ,we are yet to see any of this, but will in time,what's your preference to hand rear or leave them do it and why? Ha i can guess some of what you'll say but it really makes for interesting reading for all of us to hear abit more from someone doing it.More congratulations are in order. Another question,if you pull a half grown tad have you experienced any problems with feeding,I've read somewhere that others have experienced this.... that tad is not so interested in other foods once it has had mum's infertile eggs
> thanks again
> Stu


Hey Stu

I tend to pull tads from film cannisters but leave tads in broms. Generally pull the ones in film cannisters early so feeding tends not to be a problem. I have noticed that the hand reared tend to be bigger and brighter but the parent raised do catch up on springs and stunted mels.
i have started using new spectrum amphibian pellets which have colour enhancers which seem to produce very bright froglets. Got that tip off rich who i got the chazutas off.


----------



## soundstounite

berksmike said:


> Hey Stu
> 
> I tend to pull tads from film cannisters but leave tads in broms. Generally pull the ones in film cannisters early so feeding tends not to be a problem. I have noticed that the hand reared tend to be bigger and brighter but the parent raised do catch up on springs and stunted mels.
> i have started using new spectrum amphibian pellets which have colour enhancers which seem to produce very bright froglets. Got that tip off rich who i got the chazutas off.


G'day Mike
ha ha small world be dart's,i know i saw a thread he posted,and quizzed him,i passed the info to Ron above for his fire bellies:2thumb: Thanks again for the imput mate always good to have the other species we haven't got to yet being shown to folks,plus a few little gems of wisdom passed on
thankyou
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> It's really intriguing how tiny changes affect each species- and not just darts. I don't know if you saw my messing about with theories when Reddevil was trying to breed his Asian painted frogs- my idea was (based on what I've seen with other sub-tropical and temperate frogs) that the *female* in particular may need a cooling period to condition her- in a lot of species the male is up for it most of the time- surprise, surprise,but the female may need a bit more time! :lol2:
> 
> Maybe we'll find out next year- even if we find that my idea was total rubbish, we'll have learned something!


Ron an apology for missing this,sorry mate,i've always tried to answer every post,but i'm really onit at pres,and am missing things,here and there.

We have to oppurtunity to ponder and go a bit leftfield with phibs,it is by no means all covered or written down,so kudos for your theories and i really hope it works out for Red. the perplexing thing for me with summersi is I'am convinced she is ready to breed and he(for once:whistling2 is dragging his feet.I think i caught some of Red's thread ,but can't remember much at all..what's new:lol2:.But I'm sure of one thing,the details are what makes all this happen,getting it right for each and every species(again not just darts) takes time and observation and possibly good smattering of luck.I was talking to a large oophaga breeder recently,he brought up the simple fact that is possibly oft over looked:the couple actually have to be attracted to each other.a pr of red heads together for years,nothing,no conditions changed,apart from one of the pr...bingo breeding in weeks.Much to be learned in this field (phibs) me thinks
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

wilko92 said:


> The one bromilead had strated to show much more red in the leafs, which im glad about in away as i know for one its not dyeing.. and two that there is enough light level in there :2thumb: also got two carryer bag fulls of oak leaf litter today put a load in the viv and droped some wood louse in there! lets hope it all starts to take off nicely :2thumb: thanks again man!  paul


because they are outside,i tend to keep them on the shaded side Paul,hence this is probably the reason for your colour change.this will make you smile,the colour change is a response to stress,i've read somewhere,i don't think our lights will do any harm though,too much sun(i wish) at this time of year will turn some of our broms amazing colours,but you can see that they are not totally happy with this level of light.Put abit of food in for those woods mate,it'll slow them from munching the leaf littler quite so fast,and help increase numbers until you get your frogs,then we don't feed so much.Oh might be worth boiling the leaf litter or microwaving it,i'm sure i mentioned nemerteans
good luck mate, as before your totally welcome, dude


Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Ooh I know this one.  Most red plants the red pigment is produced to protect the plant's cells from dangerous UV, so more UV means more red pigment produced. Not a good idea to try it with frogs though, as the levels you'd need to make your broms lovely and red would probably not do the frogs much good at all.

If you like the science stuff: http://cpr.molsci.ucla.edu/cpr/data/library/400159/resources/res006/file/importance_of_red.pdf.

I've managed to get similar results in aquatic plants using very high levels of normal light, but again most frogs wouldn't like this much, it worked best though using high power LED lighting than more diffuse flourescents. Basically it's a lot like how we humans produce melanin to protect us from UV. 

Ade


----------



## ginna

well i have just sat and looked through every single page on this thread and i would like to ask a couple of questions 

1) where do you live 

2) where is "da dart room" situated in relation to your house and interior

3) are the tanks and racks attached in anyway to the floor or walls which may hinder in the removal of said items.


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Ooh I know this one.  Most red plants the red pigment is produced to protect the plant's cells from dangerous UV, so more UV means more red pigment produced. Not a good idea to try it with frogs though, as the levels you'd need to make your broms lovely and red would probably not do the frogs much good at all.
> 
> If you like the science stuff: http://cpr.molsci.ucla.edu/cpr/data/library/400159/resources/res006/file/importance_of_red.pdf.
> 
> I've managed to get similar results in aquatic plants using very high levels of normal light, but again most frogs wouldn't like this much, it worked best though using high power LED lighting than more diffuse flourescents. Basically it's a lot like how we humans produce melanin to protect us from UV.
> 
> Ade


Brilliant analogy mate:notworthy:,the sunburnt darts made me smile ,but seriously good point to make Ade,uvb may well be of benefit,but at sensible levels:2thumb:
Good points well made,kiddo

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

ginna said:


> well i have just sat and looked through every single page on this thread and i would like to ask a couple of questions
> 
> 1) where do you live
> 
> 2) where is "da dart room" situated in relation to your house and interior
> 
> 3) are the tanks and racks attached in anyway to the floor or walls which may hinder in the removal of said items.


I think there might be some humour in these Q's:mf_dribble:i hope i read that right
,yup bolted to the walls,vivs made of tissue paper so very difficult to transport
frogroom guarded by a pr of killer tincs,we have to muzzle ,before walkies.

Just in case i got that wrong,i'll apologise and say the room is north side of the house and upstairsand we live in the wettest part of the midlands
hope you enjoyed your read:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## ginna

soundstounite said:


> I think there might be some humour in these Q's:mf_dribble:i hope i read that right
> ,yup bolted to the walls,vivs made of tissue paper so very difficult to transport
> frogroom guarded by a pr of killer tincs,we have to muzzle ,before walkies.
> 
> Just in case i got that wrong,i'll apologise and say the room is north side of the house and upstairsand we live in the wettest part of the midlands
> hope you enjoyed your read:2thumb:
> Stu


:lol2: haha no you read it right. i think this is super


----------



## soundstounite

ginna said:


> :lol2: haha no you read it right. i think this is super


Thanks mate:notworthy:...the joys of webland,ya just can't see someone smiling,even when they are trying not to:mf_dribble:

I've had a few folks over now, they see it what it is,maybe:lol2:,a couple of mad folks that do this 50% each,and are both bemused,by what happens when,you really get your head down and seriously graft and where it takes you. Kinda a dart froggy journey,I'd maybe add on steroids as is my way,ya gotta live it though,livestock are just that.
bring it on
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Mysties,in scrapping mode,all resolved after eggs now back to traquiltiy,my humble request to the girls would be lay your ruddy eggs on different days:whistling2: Very fuuny to watch one pushing the other down the rocks though:blush:























































Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Don't matter which way you look at it Aero is def a girl.


We haven't done this for a while so here is one of those viv build type of story's:


'Cause i have loadsa of free time on my hands:whistling2:,I've taken this comission to build a viv,for some mates of ours,its for some Sb's so is totally built with them in mind,its 100 long 50 deep50high (cm) and is tricky to work on because i can't pick it up on my own,so here's the build just before water testing,base 6mm just to be safe the rest 4mm...5cm front vent


















carved up some poly,notes for the constant of overhangs refuges to make them feel secure and hence more visable.dodges are the planters hidden in rocks,the usual method ,so see previous installments,for details,all background sides will be constructed out of viv,then popped together once I've finished off the epoxy work



























detail of first panel












background covered in rockoflex, 




















take care ya'll
Stu


----------



## steven1

I like that background above really nice


----------



## soundstounite

.


steven1 said:


> I like that background above really nice


Thanks Steven,as long as the frogs do,i'll be a happy man,and building after keeping and rearing so many is such a benefit
Its definitely starting to take shape now
cheers
Stu


----------



## davidwilliams

Looking amazing mate, What a talent! Can not wait to see
More pictures :no1:


----------



## soundstounite

davidwilliams said:


> Looking amazing mate, What a talent! Can not wait to see
> More pictures :no1:


I hope when you see it Dave its as you want,rest coming but,i'm not showing anything until it all drys out and i clean up,but the panels are sorted: victory:
kind words bro cheers

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Sometimes,when i'm in one of those mad moments in one of those mad days,i think,yup we've been planning this for 20 yrs,unfortunately,I'm not that bright,but we do plants things that do come back and reward us for not using sprays and chemicals for 20 yrs,so a while back...well you know how long,i popped in a greengage,she's huge now and covered in greenfly,which fed every single baby frog tonight. Good huh!!!!!!!
Here are our oldest tinc Attachi,'ere do you think these greenfly glow in the dark or might be responsible for colour enchancement:lol2:...I'll leave this up to you
tell me they aren't cool though....the frogs guys........:no1:






















































bring it on huh:lol2:
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Just as you told me earlier Stu, cracking photos.

Mike


----------



## wolly dartfrog

Shit the bed stu stop feeding them glow sticks:Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## soundstounite

Cheers Mike:notworthy:,Warren that made my laugh,nice one buddy



Ok ,Shaz pulled this today the pencil is for perspective on how many GF she got off one plum tree









The commission background pretty much wrapped





































night all
Stu


----------



## consettcorals

davidwilliams said:


> Looking amazing mate, What a talent! Can not wait to see
> More pictures :no1:


 agreed 100% real talent there , comission you say ? lol might have to give me some pointers for my next build , looks amazing cannot wait to see this finished .
Warren.


----------



## soundstounite

consettcorals said:


> agreed 100% real talent there , comission you say ? lol might have to give me some pointers for my next build , looks amazing cannot wait to see this finished .
> Warren.


Yes,I'm building this for David,whom you quoted its for a group of suberblue auratus.
My methods are pretty much all set out in this thread,they are not quick,and probably not the easiest way of doing this background lark and probably not the cheepest, but having all this made up and finished with epoxy resin,my hope is for longterm viability. 
I'm one of those tortoise guys,really slow to start,much time in podering,some of the guys here will vouch that we were Stu and Shaz no frogs for probably 18 month/2yrs,before we even kept a dart,i find this maddingly slow approach just works I guess, now, another 18 months in and little frogs breeding all over the shop says it all really,all the vivs we have built are still looking great,and seem to be rock solid,some plants fail some thrive but the frogs seem enamoured with their gaffs. they really seem to utilise the backgrounds,the hidey holes the climbing frame,so the time spent at this stage just seems to me to be worth it. I'm not linking breeding success to a background ,but to a slow approach.The background i guess just keeps them fit helps them feel secure,and gives us our little slice of a rainforest in a glass box,a mini ecosystem. I still find this concept a bit bewildering really,that one can use these raw materials to create this and then it just trundles along on its own,with top ups of water leaves,and the occasion haircut.Then one plonks in these frogs some of the right food,the whole thing springs to life
its just stupidly cool
cheers on the talent,maybe abit of that,but the real underlying thing is head down graft..graft,graft,pure unbridled stubborness is the best way of putting it:2thumb:
bring it on
Stu


----------



## consettcorals

soundstounite said:


> Yes,I'm building this for David,whom you quoted its for a group of suberblue auratus.
> My methods are pretty much all set out in this thread,they are not quick,and probably not the easiest way of doing this background lark and probably not the cheepest, but having all this made up and finished with epoxy resin,my hope is for longterm viability.
> I'm one of those tortoise guys,really slow to start,much time in podering,some of the guys here will vouch that we were Stu and Shaz no frogs for probably 18 month/2yrs,before we even kept a dart,i find this maddingly slow approach just works I guess, now, another 18 months in and little frogs breeding all over the shop says it all really,all the vivs we have built are still looking great,and seem to be rock solid,some plants fail some thrive but the frogs seem enamoured with their gaffs. they really seem to utilise the backgrounds,the hidey holes the climbing frame,so the time spent at this stage just seems to me to be worth it. I'm not linking breeding success to a background ,but to a slow approach.The background i guess just keeps them fit helps them feel secure,and gives us our little slice of a rainforest in a glass box,a mini ecosystem. I still find this concept a bit bewildering really,that one can use these raw materials to create this and then it just trundles along on its own,with top ups of water leaves,and the occasion haircut.Then one plonks in these frogs some of the right food,the whole thing springs to life
> its just stupidly cool
> cheers on the talent,maybe abit of that,but the real underlying thing is head down graft..graft,graft,pure unbridled stubborness is the best way of putting it:2thumb:
> bring it on
> Stu


i must get time to sit down and read right through this post , havent had alot of time on my hands :bash: such is life lol. i think uve got that spot on ....patience,, obviosly itys payed of the results speak fopr themselves.
its certainly addictive the whole viv making and watching it come to life thing ,now i have to find time for viv 2. 
cheers 
warren.


----------



## soundstounite

consettcorals said:


> i must get time to sit down and read right through this post , havent had alot of time on my hands :bash: such is life lol. i think uve got that spot on ....patience,, obviosly itys payed of the results speak fopr themselves.
> its certainly addictive the whole viv making and watching it come to life thing ,now i have to find time for viv 2.
> cheers
> warren.


Hi Warren
I guess its worth a looksee,there is alot of detail and a fair splattering of my madness:blush:
. A guy starting from scratch always has a different perspective,methinks:things that are obvious to a seasoned pro are a big deal to a new guy.
I often ask silly simple, stupid almost, on the outside questions,but beneath them, the details I'm questing for,are not oft easy to find.having all those pics goes some way towards this ,noted down my us as we start out.

ha we all start with one viv,fortunately i saw that one coming along time back 
:lol2: Already we have got to the stage of serious thought on which species we really want to keep and how to seriously tackle them,for such a slow start,i'm still bemused by how stupidly fast things can happen
regards
Stu


----------



## matt_mcmahon77

Hey Stu, haven't posted in here for a while but still been reading the thread. Hope you and Shaz are good. Your amazing building skills and how awesome all these frogs, tanks and plants look is just something else!!


----------



## soundstounite

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Hey Stu, haven't posted in here for a while but still been reading the thread. Hope you and Shaz are good. Your amazing building skills and how awesome all these frogs, tanks and plants look is just something else!!


you keeping tabs on me mate?:lol2:
Lovely words my friend and damn good to hear from ya kiddo,likewise i hope you are both rocking and rolling.
We are properly on the way now i think Matty,with the dendrobates and the mysites, the method works we lose little. The froglets that are finding their way to new homes,we are both seriously proud of and struggle to part with.We are finding grub for everything,culturing is good,still very little bought in...the line philosophy works for feeders no doubts in my mind now.
But, there are still some big chestnuts to crack,summersi being foremost on my mind ,but i'm not sure which card to play next,as you've probably read we seem to be inching closer,but have still not got it down yet,mind they both look great. Then i guess those oophaga need mulling on,so we are trying to save like mad,to be ready.

Stuff does go wrong though a few days ago i got seriously caught out,we must have had one day just a bit too hot for the plants in the the G.H about 40cracking ficus,all over a year old just got burned to a crisp,gutting and weird because it was way hotter last year and they were fine,seriously frustrating,but we have more so back to cobbling together aload more from scratch . Just shows how onit you have to be with livestock,take your eye off the ball for a minute and bamm
take care mate 
best
Stu


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> you keeping tabs on me mate?:lol2:
> Lovely words my friend and damn good to hear from ya kiddo,likewise i hope you are both rocking and rolling.
> We are properly on the way now i think Matty,with the dendrobates and the mysites, the method works we lose little. The froglets that are finding their way to new homes,we are both seriously proud of and struggle to part with.We are finding grub for everything,culturing is good,still very little bought in...the line philosophy works for feeders no doubts in my mind now.
> But, there are still some big chestnuts to crack,summersi being foremost on my mind ,but i'm not sure which card to play next,as you've probably read we seem to be inching closer,but have still not got it down yet,mind they both look great. Then i guess those oophaga need mulling on,so we are trying to save like mad,to be ready.
> 
> *Stuff does go wrong though a few days ago i got seriously caught out,we must have had one day just a bit too hot for the plants in the the G.H about 40cracking ficus,all over a year old just got burned to a crisp*,gutting and weird because it was way hotter last year and they were fine,seriously frustrating,but we have more so back to cobbling together aload more from scratch . Just shows how onit you have to be with livestock,take your eye off the ball for a minute and bamm
> take care mate
> best
> Stu


Hey Stu

had exactly the same myself this year. Got myself a new glass greenhouse and as ive always used either polycarbonate or those cheap plastic greenhouses in the past i never thought. Well i put a new batch of bromeliads in there and nearly everyone on the top shelves got scorched :bash: i painted the greenhouse with that coolglass after so the new replacement plants are ok now, but ive now got my own vivs full of broms with half of there leaves cut off. The joys of it all i guess Stu

Nice to see Matt is still about i think its time he got more frogs myself :2thumb:

Richie


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Hey Stu
> 
> had exactly the same myself this year. Got myself a new glass greenhouse and as ive always used either polycarbonate or those cheap plastic greenhouses in the past i never thought. Well i put a new batch of bromeliads in there and nearly everyone on the top shelves got scorched :bash: i painted the greenhouse with that coolglass after so the new replacement plants are ok now, but ive now got my own vivs full of broms with half of there leaves cut off. The joys of it all i guess Stu
> 
> Nice to see Matt is still about i think its time he got more frogs myself :2thumb:
> 
> Richie


Hey mate,truly frustrating Richie,i use the shade netting on mine because I also have tommies and peppers in there which need the light,i had 2 layers covering these plants,but bamm total wipeout,the Gh is in part shade,the heat must have been just too much ,but really weird,because where the sun went behind a tree the plants on that side,the last line are ok...almost freaky:bash: weird as they are in propergators.
Doesn't matter how much you know or learn Richie, or how diligent you are livestock be it plant or animal always seems to find a way to top it self that one hasn't thought of. I'm totally perplexed by this one as it was so damn hot last year,and its been almost nothing but Noah and the ruddy floods here this year. Ha i reckon you did this deliberately to get more broms in each viv...and breed even more pums:lol2::2thumb:
I agree with ya on Matty :2thumb: great to hear from him,'ere Matty have you seen those mysties we have for sale:blush:,you and Manda would be great custodians of them and they aren't noisey either :whistling2:
LMAO
Stu


----------



## manda88

Oh gawd don't tempt him, Stu :lol2: you know he has always had a love for mysties!


----------



## richie.b

manda88 said:


> Oh gawd don't tempt him, Stu :lol2: you know he has always had a love for mysties!



Do it i was forced back into getting more mysties when i went to Nicks and remembered how stunning theyre then had to get more at hamm.
And you know these are going to be nice healthy frogs off Stu
By the way nice to see you on here as well Amanda : victory:

Well Stu as the saying goes if you dont make any mistakes in life then youre not doing bugger all, or something like that anyway :blush:

Richie


----------



## manda88

Hey Rich  Just how accurate is your use of the word 'forced' though?  I bet you didn't take much convincing! You coming to Kempton this year? Would be great to have a catch up!


----------



## FrogNick

richie.b said:


> Do it i was forced back into getting more mysties when i went to Nicks and remembered how stunning theyre then had to get more at hamm.
> And you know these are going to be nice healthy frogs off Stu
> By the way nice to see you on here as well Amanda : victory:
> 
> Well Stu as the saying goes if you dont make any mistakes in life then youre not doing bugger all, or something like that anyway :blush:
> 
> Richie


Since I sold you that female Richie had no more eggs! Hope I didn't sell you my layer!


----------



## richie.b

manda88 said:


> Hey Rich  Just how accurate is your use of the word 'forced' though?  I bet you didn't take much convincing! You coming to Kempton this year? Would be great to have a catch up!


Im not going to Kempton did think about having a table as they opened it to everyone this year but didnt bother after. i will be at pras though this year we can catch up then : victory:



FrogNick said:


> Since I sold you that female Richie had no more eggs! Hope I didn't sell you my layer!


Havent had any eggs off her Nick but she is nice and fat, i havent finished there viv yet so theyre still in a temporary one.

Sorry Stu for taking over your thread

Richie


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Im not going to Kempton did think about having a table as they opened it to everyone this year but didnt bother after. i will be at pras though this year we can catch up then : victory:
> 
> 
> 
> Havent had any eggs off her Nick but she is nice and fat, i havent finished there viv yet so theyre still in a temporary one.
> 
> Sorry Stu for taking over your thread
> 
> Richie


Lmfao i don't care Richie,most of the time i think I'm just blabbering away to myself anyway:mf_dribble:,it always shocks me when folks i can't see pop up and say stuff:2thumb:
I want to add give nicky his breeding female back,or I'm going to have an excuse to keep some mystie kids for a year,to sort it out:lol2:
Oh Manda,darlin':flrt: to put your mind at rest,i have the mysties advertised seriously on hold all five so you can relax mate.,sorry for being bad:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:

Richie its..... dat bloke dat never done nuffin' never screwed up init:whistling2::blush::blush:


OH Matty,don't tell manda,but i have some more mysties in a few more weeks,and erm some more behind that and erm some more,plus there's those teeny tine ones,oh and We moved an absolutly adoreable frogpole little fatty to morphout today,i think he might have some friends soon
Manda don't hate me mate,i can't help it i pulled 14 hours today i'm shattered
but the viv is finished and all the other stuff done plus work,thought i'd end the day by making a few folks smile....well a poor attempt at humour anyway:no1:
night ya'll
Stu


----------



## manda88

richie.b said:


> Im not going to Kempton did think about having a table as they opened it to everyone this year but didnt bother after. i will be at pras though this year we can catch up then : victory:
> 
> 
> 
> Havent had any eggs off her Nick but she is nice and fat, i havent finished there viv yet so theyre still in a temporary one.
> 
> Sorry Stu for taking over your thread
> 
> Richie


Sounds good to me  I look forward to it already!



soundstounite said:


> Lmfao i don't care Richie,most of the time i think I'm just blabbering away to myself anyway:mf_dribble:,it always shocks me when folks i can't see pop up and say stuff:2thumb:
> I want to add give nicky his breeding female back,or I'm going to have an excuse to keep some mystie kids for a year,to sort it out:lol2:
> Oh Manda,darlin':flrt: to put your mind at rest,i have the mysties advertised seriously on hold all five so you can relax mate.,sorry for being bad:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:
> 
> Richie its..... dat bloke dat never done nuffin' never screwed up init:whistling2::blush::blush:
> 
> 
> OH Matty,don't tell manda,but i have some more mysties in a few more weeks,and erm some more behind that and erm some more,plus there's those teeny tine ones,oh and We moved an absolutly adoreable frogpole little fatty to morphout today,i think he might have some friends soon
> Manda don't hate me mate,i can't help it i pulled 14 hours today i'm shattered
> but the viv is finished and all the other stuff done plus work,thought i'd end the day by making a few folks smile....well a poor attempt at humour anyway:no1:
> night ya'll
> Stu


Oh Stu I could never hate you, you're far too lovely to be hated by anyone  We wouldn't be able to afford any just yet anyway so maybe one day...


----------



## soundstounite

manda88 said:


> Sounds good to me  I look forward to it already!
> 
> 
> 
> Oh Stu I could never hate you, you're far too lovely to be hated by anyone  We wouldn't be able to afford any just yet anyway so maybe one day...


Cheers mate, kind words,you know me i'm always up for a laugh,one day maybe is always good Manda:2thumb:,i tell myself this each and every day,when i look at the frogs,i desire most. i'll keep my head down and graft it out for sure.trouble is mate it takes along time to get your own place and all that malarky,We couldn't have done this without getting old first ,bummer is it not.
great to speak to both of ya again take care both 
best
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Data : Tinc attachi popped in the water 2/4 2012,coming ootw now 7/72012, apox 66 days if my maths is correct average water temp say 74F well there abouts,but damn close.slight variation on morphout time probably attributed to variations in feed given,maybe just individual characteristics,all set good to be reared...rock'n'roll 
I'll pin down the rest as i get there


Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Here's the commission viv as it left here,lots of growing in to do and i'm sure a few more plants might be added,but if everything takes and gets going it will be cool to see some pics in a few months....hint hint:lol2:






























back to it:bash:

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

Wow! That was quite the read. The better part of a day. I skimmed about 50 pages in the middle though. :blush: It's a great resource for someone just getting started in the hobby or have been in it for a while. You don't see too many people post about their short falls much. I have plenty to share. lol Definitely a huge contribution to the hobby!

Your frog room is looking fantastic guys! Hey Stu, what ever happen with the Cits? Did they turn out to be a pair? 

Did you lose my number or get tired of all the fighting on the _other_ forums? :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Cheers


----------



## Ron Magpie

manda88 said:


> Sounds good to me  I look forward to it already!
> 
> 
> 
> Oh Stu I could never hate you, you're far too lovely to be hated by anyone  We wouldn't be able to afford any just yet anyway so maybe one day...


I think it's safe to say *absolutely no-one *on here could hate Stu- unless you can hate someone for just being too nice- and even I couldn't manage that!:lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> Wow! That was quite the read. The better part of a day. I skimmed about 50 pages in the middle though. :blush: It's a great resource for someone just getting started in the hobby or have been in it for a while. You don't see too many people post about their short falls much. I have plenty to share. lol Definitely a huge contribution to the hobby!
> 
> Your frog room is looking fantastic guys! Hey Stu, what ever happen with the Cits? Did they turn out to be a pair?
> 
> Did you lose my number or get tired of all the fighting on the _other_ forums? :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> Cheers


Its what it is Glenn 2 guys getting started,i think if you come at it from a beginners point of view,you see the problems in a way that the next guy does as he learns it, its easier for him to understand we don't have great resources,i wanted to show that keeping darts is obtainable for all,its not exclusive,not for rich folks,but you do have to show a commitment and graft ,you can build your own vivs from rubbish old glass if needs must,but as you well know there is never a day when you don't sort that culture out. Much is to be learned from a mans mistake,we all make them,the hope is by popping them down the next guy doesn't make them,hide them and the next guy falls in. it doesn't hurt me to say i screwed up Glenn actually its the opposite i guess,so thats the path i go down.but thats a side note really the important bit is the next frogger reading this might do just a tiny bit better for his frogs.

Glenn thanks for the words,massively kind 
Its coming mate the old room,we haven't added much in the way of new frogs really of late,but we have started to build a serious working method to rear a dart,its by no means complete ,or even expected but one needs to move in the right way at the right time and not always follow the plan.i did have one honest:lol2:
The pr of cits are still here big and strong and they are a pr of boys mate:bash:,I'm searching for a lass as we speak 

Basically the breeding has meant less time to post mate,as beginners in our first 18months of dart keeping,we have to be seriously sure on all things feeder,we have little margin for error because we don't have those years of experience to fall back on,and we are yet to be as efficient as we will be as our knowledge base grows,but we are learning alot damn fast,it just takes time,you know how much time better than most.
thats the thing about these guys Glenn,none of us really claim to be experts,we all learn something new daily,we all have different methods of doing stuff,but we don't often need to fight with each other,because we can learn so much from each others point of view,so we talk/debate about our phibs and for the most part help each other along, the fighting is for the most part pointless/non existant,its bloody refreshing at times.
So know i will never loose your number bro,tough:Na_Na_Na_Na: just pretty busy mate.
Glenn would you do me the honour of showing the guys some of what you do please,it would show them part of why i have so much respect for you,it will also give them some fantastic ideas,anything from the bug room to the vivs to the..well anything,mate its imspiring stuff
Gotta sleep mate,alittle show today and some great company,oh mate Mike lives right up north ,he is a kindrid spirit to you he travels up and down supporting our frogs,maybe not quite as far as your last hike,but hell the poor bugger would end up with wet feet,or even in europe:gasp: if he did
thanks bro
best
Stu


----------



## frogfreak

soundstounite said:


> Its what it is Glenn 2 guys getting started,i think if you come at it from a beginners point of view,you see the problems in a way that the next guy does as he learns it, its easier for him to understand we don't have great resources,i wanted to show that keeping darts is obtainable for all,its not exclusive,not for rich folks,but you do have to show a commitment and graft ,you can build your own vivs from rubbish old glass if needs must,but as you well know there is never a day when you don't sort that culture out. Much is to be learned from a mans mistake,we all make them,the hope is by popping them down the next guy doesn't make them,hide them and the next guy falls in. it doesn't hurt me to say i screwed up Glenn actually its the opposite i guess,so thats the path i go down.but thats a side note really the important bit is the next frogger reading this might do just a tiny bit better for his frogs.


I hear what you're saying, Stu. Personally, I think posting failures is as important as posting success's. You might as well save the next guy the hassle. There's so many different ways to do things in this hobby it's mind boggling...Good on ya, Stu! BTW This is the best thread I've ever read!!



soundstounite said:


> Glenn thanks for the words,massively kind
> Its coming mate the old room,we haven't added much in the way of new frogs really of late,but we have started to build a serious working method to rear a dart,its by no means complete ,or even expected but one needs to move in the right way at the right time and not always follow the plan.i did have one honest:lol2:


It's never "complete" bud. Especially, when your doing something on a larger scale. I too had a plan, but I didn't know it would take me 10 years to finish it!! :blush:




soundstounite said:


> The pr of cits are still here big and strong and they are a pr of boys mate:bash:,I'm searching for a lass as we speak


Ah dude, I thought you had a pair for sure. Are they common in the UK? Not so much here.



soundstounite said:


> Basically the breeding has meant less time to post mate,as beginners in our first 18months of dart keeping,we have to be seriously sure on all things feeder,we have little margin for error because we don't have those years of experience to fall back on,and we are yet to be as efficient as we will be as our knowledge base grows,but we are learning alot damn fast,it just takes time,you know how much time better than most.
> thats the thing about these guys Glenn,none of us really claim to be experts,we all learn something new daily,we all have different methods of doing stuff,but we don't often need to fight with each other,because we can learn so much from each others point of view,so we talk/debate about our phibs and for the most part help each other along, the fighting is for the most part pointless/non existant,its bloody refreshing at times.


Feeders is of the highest priority and we never miss a day. Can you imagine what would happen if something went astray and ran out of food! :gasp: I lose sleep over that one! There isn't a day that goes by that we don't learn something. Always changing things up and experimenting and trying to improve. I've changes directions so many times it baffles me sometimes :crazy: I'm no expert either and getting on forums and sharing, reading and conversing is a fantastic way to learn even more! We also need to get the message out that this hobby isn't complicated. It can be very simple. The fact that some like to experiment doesn't mean that you have to be some kinds of :censor:g genius to keep these gems. 



soundstounite said:


> So know i will never loose your number bro,tough:Na_Na_Na_Na: just pretty busy mate.


I'm just poking at you, Stu. :Na_Na_Na_Na: I already knew what would happen when you started breeding. Bin there done that, bud. I think I have about a year on you? It's funny how the path is so predictable if you've already been there. It takes up and incredible amount of time and their needs come first and foremost. I wish I could look into the future...Best of luck to you guys! 



soundstounite said:


> Glenn would you do me the honour of showing the guys some of what you do please,it would show them part of why i have so much respect for you,it will also give them some fantastic ideas,anything from the bug room to the vivs to the..well anything,mate its imspiring stuff


Thanks buddy! I'll post some pics of the frog room and some other stuff. I'm not sure that I'm doing anything different then the next guy though. I read in this thread about a soil mix for springs and Iso's and have misplaced it. Care to dig that one up for me? 

Cheers, Stu and say Hi to Shaz for us. :thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> I hear what you're saying, Stu. Personally, I think posting failures is as important as posting success's. You might as well save the next guy the hassle. There's so many different ways to do things in this hobby it's mind boggling...Good on ya, Stu! BTW This is the best thread I've ever read!!
> 
> 
> It's never "complete" bud. Especially, when your doing something on a larger scale. I too had a plan, but I didn't know it would take me 10 years to finish it!! :blush:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah dude, I thought you had a pair for sure. Are they common in the UK? Not so much here.
> 
> 
> 
> Feeders is of the highest priority and we never miss a day. Can you imagine what would happen if something went astray and ran out of food! :gasp: I lose sleep over that one! There isn't a day that goes by that we don't learn something. Always changing things up and experimenting and trying to improve. I've changes directions so many times it baffles me sometimes :crazy: I'm no expert either and getting on forums and sharing, reading and conversing is a fantastic way to learn even more! We also need to get the message out that this hobby isn't complicated. It can be very simple. The fact that some like to experiment doesn't mean that you have to be some kinds of :censor:g genius to keep these gems.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just poking at you, Stu. :Na_Na_Na_Na: I already knew what would happen when you started breeding. Bin there done that, bud. I think I have about a year on you? It's funny how the path is so predictable if you've already been there. It takes up and incredible amount of time and their needs come first and foremost. I wish I could look into the future...Best of luck to you guys!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks buddy! I'll post some pics of the frog room and some other stuff. I'm not sure that I'm doing anything different then the next guy though. I read in this thread about a soil mix for springs and Iso's and have misplaced it. Care to dig that one up for me?
> 
> 
> Cheers, Stu and say Hi to Shaz for us. :thumb:


Thanks mate,but you skipped how much:Na_Na_Na_Na:,my turn buddy:lol2:
Serious head on,the feeders give me the same night mares,so we go overkill on all counts,so far so good. My friend Mike and i have been debating springtail at length for ages now we are trialling different methods.I'm pretty much settled on charcoal and yeast as the staple,Mike is maybe torn betwixt leca like you use and charcoal.I had a great mate here yesterday,we went to a little rep show together,you know him as Phelsumaman,.Ben thinks we've got it sorted,its very close to where i want to be mate,with your 's and the others guys help.Its stable Glenn,maybe not the most productive way ,but stable producing enough for all our kids,I'll detail this for all in a while once i get chance.
Glenn the iso/woodlice for us,culturing subs,i use work for springs ,but they are not as workable at feeding as one tap off a big lump of charcoal,no bits no mess just springs fall on our tiny froglets.The iso subs are basically a mix of part rotted oak and beech leaf litter,to which we add partially rotten to rotten plum work.We scrape back the topmost layer initially for the starter subs,then top up as need with a higher less decomposed layer .All subs microwaved.This seriously works mate,feed is ready break plus a tiny sprinkle of fish flake, it mites appear stop feeding subs are edible,longest running culture well over a year,keep cultures warm...top of frogroom and damper at the non vented end for a humidity gradient,Glen have a search of my dart den thread,you'll see.If you have oak woodland over there this will do it!!
Citronella are about here,i know of only one fella breeding,the stock is coming from europe,there seem to be lots about over there,Richie was telling me yesterday that spring hamm was riddled with them,and I'm pretty sure some WC came in to holland recently. yeah almost everyone thought a pr,and then just after we put the threads out we both clocked different frogs calling...bugger!!!

I'm sure you do do things a bit different mate,its that dilgence.... attention to detail ,i want the guys to see,ha ha plus (i don't know if you have this term) ,but we are pic whores here......we do love looking at anything frog related.As you mentioned there are so many ways to do this,so bits of anyone's set up will get stolen to use in one's own room all as it should be
our best to Laura,Shaz tried to say hi in Canuk,it came out welsh:gasp:
Mind i tried the american accent yesterday,it nearly ended in a fight,then thats natural isn't it :bash:,nah i'm joking,there are some good uns over there.
I must ask you something,i'll do it privately
best 
Stu


----------



## frogfreak

It's funny that you mentioned the springs on Leca. Yep, it worked well, but thought I'd try something else. I started to cultures them on coco husk and am getting at least twice the production. I use the fill and dump method and many more springs are left behind to continue breeding. With Leca it's easier to exhaust the culture and then you end up waiting forever for it to get going again. That and when you dump leca you leave half your springs with double concussions. :lol2: Another change of direction... :gasp: It sounds like the fill and pour method isn't all that popular there.

Cheers


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> It's funny that you mentioned the springs on Leca. Yep, it worked well, but thought I'd try something else. I started to cultures them on coco husk and am getting at least twice the production. I use the fill and dump method and many more springs are left behind to continue breeding. With Leca it's easier to exhaust the culture and then you end up waiting forever for it to get going again. That and when you dump leca you leave half your springs with double concussions. :lol2: Another change of direction... :gasp: It sounds like the fill and pour method isn't all that popular there.
> 
> Cheers


Some folks here struggle with springtails period Glenn .We have a guy Called David (spanner) whom supplies more than a few guys,he's our master springtail man i guess using german methods i think .But we don't have many big breeders whom have to cope with constant high yeild/production.If your feeding 100 kids things are somewhat different to 3 or 4 tanks i should imagine.lots of culturing is done on ecoearth,some on abg mix some on leaflitter.We couldn't master the fill and pour at all ,but big lumps of charcoal on top feed yeast on that,tap tap bingo, fat little tincs fed,shaz watches the frogs i check culture on to the next one very efficent fill and pour way to slow and labourious. then i wash each culture through every couple of weeks.
the few folks we have had over seem to think its working well,and bigger the better on culture size.We've tried most of the methods now apart from your chips and concussing them:lol2: with clay balls.but i can't speak for every one. This hobby teaches you to quizz everyone and steal the best for yourself
Stu


----------



## frogfreak

It may be time for a video. :2thumb::2thumb:


----------



## Ron Magpie

Interesting about the springs- I don't consciously breed them at all- they appeared 'spontaneously', in the clawed frog tank, I think, maybe brought in on weed, but I do spread them to new tanks, via leaves moss or wood. They are WAY too small to bother culturing for food for my frogs, but they are useful cleaning crew.


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> It may be time for a video. :2thumb::2thumb:


I'm too old for that now dude:mf_dribble:
Glenn i'll do a photo shoot/right up shortly,i haven't even attempted to learn how to video stuff yet kinda had my hands full on the dart learning
oh pics mate:whistling2:when you have a mo.:whip::whip::lol2:
bring it on
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Interesting about the springs- I don't consciously breed them at all- they appeared 'spontaneously', in the clawed frog tank, I think, maybe brought in on weed, but I do spread them to new tanks, via leaves moss or wood. They are WAY too small to bother culturing for food for my frogs, but they are useful cleaning crew.


All these little differences Ron some of our methods cross over springs are seriously essential to us dart guys,like anything producing a few is easy,but when you get in to what i'm about to post,things take on a new meaning,margins for error are minimal.


Some of the young stock that we are looking out for at the moment,a couple of tads










there is more than one way to rear a dart tad,here's the simple spared no expense method,tub £1 morrisons Glasses tescos 4 for just under a £1









and the gizmo,less time comsuming,trade off i guess a higher risk factor,its the usual senario really both work if one adds in the right stockmanship.










A mystie tad and a pan special auratus tad,side by side,hatched the same day just to compare growth rates,one can already see why mysties are in the water so long,










leuc tad showing back legs









mystie tad










pan special just before morph out well its nose:lol2:









same tad popped in a film can so i can put this in the water in the morphout tub,let the temps stabilise,then release him to come ootw









one of the last of the attachis just before popping front legs









Little attachis of various ages...various batches


----------



## soundstounite

one of those rare imports that came in from asia a while back









some 'ickle mysties




































panama special kids


















Now if you follow this sporadic thread you'll remember us getting some really dark froglets from the pan.sp so here is one of those against a normal coloured one,for comparison,its amaing how they've lightened in colour already these dark ones,remember these are not even full grown yet,i hope the camera doesn't lie too much



























and how about this for one of the best markings of a face on a frogs back,almost perfect:2thumb:,couldn't get quite the right camera angle of straight away,but hopefully enough for you to see










some smaller guys of the same


----------



## soundstounite

Oh talking of cool marking on auratus this is blue nose,she wasn't being very co operative but still stunning with blue eyelashes and nose



















and some of her mates





































some little leucs ha ha and the pie lady snapped doing what she does.hunting:whistling2:




























hope you've enjoeyed
Take care guys
bring it on 

Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Ohh my goodness Stu, you are the Frog God!!

John


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Ohh my goodness Stu, you are the Frog God!!
> 
> John


ha ha that's funny:lol2:
how the hell are ya buddy?
actually i feel more like a phib magnet,cast your eyes over this lovely lass,her and her friends are the reason,i oft bang on about being careful with your froggy waste; bleeching the water and either double bagging,or in my case burning the solids,she was having a bath in one of the pepper plant water trays i have about 2' from where I'm sat now...just outside the lounge window,I'll never be able to fathom the beauty in those eyes,damn i love toads,i know we keep little amazingly coloured frogs,but there is still great beauty in brown,done like this




























cool huh
Stu


----------



## ronnyjodes

Stu, I've just decided to start reading this whole thread again from page 1, I'm up to page 20 and all I can still say is :notworthy:.
I'm somewhat jealous of your green house full of broms from a few pages in, I could do with trying to grow my own, would save me a fortune but I haven't got the slightest idea how to start haha. It's not like buying a packet of Mr Fothergill's seeds is it :lol2:


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Yeah I'm good stu, working on loads of new gear so that kerps me up all hours!

Keep up the good work fella! 

Your doing the dendro hobby a huge service..I feel a book on the way from you matey!

Give me a call early sept if you can, I may have a supprise for you:2thumb:

John 


QUOTE=soundstounite;10368984]ha ha that's funny:lol2:
how the hell are ya buddy?
actually i feel more like a phib magnet,cast your eyes over this lovely lass,her and her friends are the reason,i oft bang on about being careful with your froggy waste; bleeching the water and either double bagging,or in my case burning the solids,she was having a bath in one of the pepper plant water trays i have about 2' from where I'm sat now...just outside the lounge window,I'll never be able to fathom the beauty in those eyes,damn i love toads,i know we keep little amazingly coloured frogs,but there is still great beauty in brown,done like this

image

image

image

cool huh
Stu[/QUOTE]


----------



## ronnyjodes

Arcadiajohn said:


> Your doing the dendro hobby a huge service..I feel a book on the way from you matey!


Jesus Christ that would be amazing!:2thumb:


----------



## Ron Magpie

Arcadiajohn said:


> Ohh my goodness Stu, you are the Frog God!!
> 
> John


:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


:lol2::lol2::lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Yeah I'm good stu, working on loads of new gear so that kerps me up all hours!
> 
> Keep up the good work fella!
> 
> Your doing the dendro hobby a huge service..I feel a book on the way from you matey!
> 
> Give me a call early sept if you can, I may have a supprise for you:2thumb:
> 
> John
> 
> 
> QUOTE=soundstounite;10368984]ha ha that's funny:lol2:
> how the hell are ya buddy?
> actually i feel more like a phib magnet,cast your eyes over this lovely lass,her and her friends are the reason,i oft bang on about being careful with your froggy waste; bleeching the water and either double bagging,or in my case burning the solids,she was having a bath in one of the pepper plant water trays i have about 2' from where I'm sat now...just outside the lounge window,I'll never be able to fathom the beauty in those eyes,damn i love toads,i know we keep little amazingly coloured frogs,but there is still great beauty in brown,done like this
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> cool huh
> Stu


[/QUOTE]

Arcadia must be keeping you nearly as busy as these frogs and me job are me mate,thank god there are 2 of us rattling around with these frogs,ha we like surprises:no1:
belucky mate
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

ronnyjodes said:


> Stu, I've just decided to start reading this whole thread again from page 1, I'm up to page 20 and all I can still say is :notworthy:.
> I'm somewhat jealous of your green house full of broms from a few pages in, I could do with trying to grow my own, would save me a fortune but I haven't got the slightest idea how to start haha. It's not like buying a packet of Mr Fothergill's seeds is it :lol2:


OH MY GOD:lol2:I'm not really sure whether its safe to read this all again,it might need one of those warnings from Edwina Curry or someone governMENTAL:mf_dribble:

Sorry dude,Ronny thanks man.Remember how slow we went into this,along time without frogs but along time growing plants beforehamd,it did save bucks,all of these plants grow slowly,thats why they are expensive,all need winter heat,so that doesn't help matters.But once you get your head around how a brom likes to grow,ie wet vase airy compost around its feet (not too wet),we use moss,a humid environment,its not too hard,then taking pups at the right stage,not too big seems to help the parent produce more without dying,but mate,i'm no expert,i just look real hard.Essentially its a time thing and its slow.Gill is really whom you need to speak too about growing broms.ha and they don't want full sun either.
Plants are the same as animals,you have to find out what they need and give it too them day in day out.Summer is easier winter is when everything becomes really difficult,for us small time growers. 
ha ha as to the Mr fothergill's well it all depends which packet you pick up i guess:lol2:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

ronnyjodes said:


> Jesus Christ that would be amazing!:2thumb:


ha because you'ld be able to find things in it unlike this thread :lol2:
Serioulsy lovely guys thankyou

Again Ronny,we must remember,i'm only 18 months in we have only scratched the surface really.Basically just breeding the so called beginner species.We do seem to be aquiring some little methods that we can pass on though which is cool and why this monster thread exists. We really need to get ranitomeya and oophaga going here properly soon,so we can work out how they tick,I've still not coaxed the summersi into doing much. But we are making progress,with much help,from almost all over, which speaks volumes for the dart hobby. 

But i guess this is also true
We have learnt how to cobble a rack up,grow plants make fake rocks,vivs from rubbish glass, different methods of creating a background how to rear dendrobates and excidobates,that rearing 24 tads in a gizmo can work and so can the most simple plain old glass, how to make that said gizmo how to culture woods fruit fly and soon springtails on a largish scale. 
We've learnt that Alder tad teas can at least help prevent mouth fungus in tads,that dart tads love live grub,a really effective rearing system can be made out of cheep plastic tubs(even though i wantd to make something abit more elabourate:whistling2,that leaf littler is loved by darts auratus will get bolder and you will see them,but they like overhead cover and not too bright a light,that tincs can eat for england and you don't want to feed mystie kids too much,that there is no right way to look after darts,just the best way for you,which you have to find for yourself, that............we'll you get the idea
So its a good foundation for a novice to ponder on, if he can find where on earth the bit he wants is:bash:

ha ha bring it on
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
> 
> 
> :lol2::lol2::lol2:


its always the simple ones that contain the stuff that really makes us laugh hey mate:2thumb:
Now do you see why i don't keep toads mate, darts are god for inside our frogs toads and newts outside and they get there own grub.
oh Ron,I've got a couple of other wildlife pics from right beside the house,it all stems from trying to grow sow thistles for greenfly,it was a total disaster this year,but we got some other guests instead,soon mate once I've found the pics
and loaded them:2thumb:....off topic of course
Stu


----------



## VixxieandTrixxie

Absolute stunning frogs you have there :2thumb:


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> its always the simple ones that contain the stuff that really makes us laugh hey mate:2thumb:
> Now do you see why i don't keep toads mate, darts are god for inside our frogs toads and newts outside and they get there own grub.
> oh Ron,I've got a couple of other wildlife pics from right beside the house,it all stems from trying to grow sow thistles for greenfly,it was a total disaster this year,but we got some other guests instead,soon mate once I've found the pics
> and loaded them:2thumb:....off topic of course
> Stu


I'll hold you to that!


----------



## snowdragon

*old trainers*



soundstounite said:


> ha ha that's funny:lol2:
> how the hell are ya buddy?
> actually i feel more like a phib magnet,cast your eyes over this lovely lass,her and her friends are the reason,i oft bang on about being careful with your froggy waste; bleeching the water and either double bagging,or in my case burning the solids,she was having a bath in one of the pepper plant water trays i have about 2' from where I'm sat now...just outside the lounge window,I'll never be able to fathom the beauty in those eyes,damn i love toads,i know we keep little amazingly coloured frogs,but there is still great beauty in brown,done like this
> 
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> cool huh
> Stu


 hi stu i used to keep a old pair of trainers by the back door for gardening one day went put em on i found a toad just the same as this had made is home in their my gardening trainers became that toads home for 2 yrs lol untill she moved into the conservatory pond for the winter . lol


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I'll hold you to that!


No probs:2thumb: 
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

snowdragon said:


> hi stu i used to keep a old pair of trainers by the back door for gardening one day went put em on i found a toad just the same as this had made is home in their my gardening trainers became that toads home for 2 yrs lol untill she moved into the conservatory pond for the winter . lol


Ha brilliant,i make little scrapes for them under stones and the like,maybe trainers would be a better option

lovely mate,we have a real soft spot for toads
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Just a little note to say how great Scott's rep room looks,cracking work from Ian!. Also,how good all the vivs and inhabitants look you've got a great sense of design mate well done,the leucs viv is a cracker they'll love it there,thanks for this afternoon,i reckon good for both you and Shaz to talk and forget about all the crap,even if only for a little while
thanks mate
best
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Here you are Ron,this is what happens when you try to let nature cultivate some greenflyand she gives you something else instead:2thumb:
2 of our most beautiful finches turn up

Goldie





































erm Richie??





































Oh i know its poor humour,tiny things please tiny minds an all that:blush:he wont mind though because he loves our wildlife too :2thumb:

Its hard to believe what a pain this stunning bird is to fruit growers,we have never really had that many problems though,ha i wonder why
Stu


----------



## richie.b

As soon as i read the thread about thistles i knew it would be goldfinches but bullfinches as well, bonus Stu actually one of my favourite birds and not just because they call them bullys :2thumb:

thanks for these Stu bloody lovely

Richie


----------



## Wolfenrook

Second lot of birds are bull finches Stu. Gorgeous pics, thanks for sharing them. 

Ade


----------



## Wolfenrook

:lol2: We must have clicked submit reply at the exact same moment Richie.


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> As soon as i read the thread about thistles i knew it would be goldfinches but bullfinches as well, bonus Stu actually one of my favourite birds and not just because they call them bullys :2thumb:
> 
> thanks for these Stu bloody lovely
> 
> Richie


what a joy hey mate,to stand watching them feed about a foot from my lounge window,i just couldn't get the lass she was just abit shyer,always here early when all is real quiet,but wise to my every move probably with kids to being super cautious. They are one of my favourite natives too Rich, how could they not be.We have always seen them here,but never got an oppurtunity like this before. We have a huge blackcurrant bush near the front door,and they take their share each spring,but they never leave us short.an Goldies well that song man it is just beautiful,so no greenfly for me frogs,but still extraordinarily cool
ha i couldn't help it i wrote Goldies popped in the pics then...........ha you got it i knew you would !!

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

VixxieandTrixxie said:


> Absolute stunning frogs you have there :2thumb:


I missed this thanks mate,we graft at them ,they give back more,what can i say,they are our kids
cheers
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Second lot of birds are bull finches Stu. Gorgeous pics, thanks for sharing them.
> 
> Ade


yup you got it bro,tis the simple things mate,twenty pots of sow thistles to make my summer harvest easy,no green fly but these....:mf_dribble: 
Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Ahh Stu,

Now that has really cheered me up!!!

There is something so mesmerising in nature that can hold you captive and sincerely bring a tear to the eye!!

I have kept birds as long as I have kept reptiles, and have few British but there is simply nothing like seeing them in full colour, in the wild doing what they do!!

Did you know bullies can say a few words? Yep they sure can and the Goldie for me probably has the finest song in the world! Although I prefer to keep serrinus mozambicus. 

Real nice pictures fella!

John 




soundstounite said:


> Here you are Ron,this is what happens when you try to let nature cultivate some greenflyand she gives you something else instead:2thumb:
> 2 of our most beautiful finches turn up
> 
> Goldie
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> erm Richie??
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> Oh i know its poor humour,tiny things please tiny minds an all that:blush:he wont mind though because he loves our wildlife too :2thumb:
> 
> Its hard to believe what a pain this stunning bird is to fruit growers,we have never really had that many problems though,ha i wonder why
> Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Ahh Stu,
> 
> Now that has really cheered me up!!!
> 
> There is something so mesmerising in nature that can hold you captive and sincerely bring a tear to the eye!!
> 
> I have kept birds as long as I have kept reptiles, and have few British but there is simply nothing like seeing them in full colour, in the wild doing what they do!!
> 
> Did you know bullies can say a few words? Yep they sure can and the Goldie for me probably has the finest song in the world! Although I prefer to keep serrinus mozambicus.
> 
> Real nice pictures fella!
> 
> John


John ,
lovely words,i understand fully what you mean. No, i didn't realise bullies could talk,but yup a goldies song is something else . 
To have this,so close to the house was very special,ha but you understand that!! We had a pr of blue tits working them a few days back,probably why the greenfly were non existant,they reared aleucistic fledgling this year,but maybe something has clobbered it as we haven't seen it in a good while now,hopefully it has just moved on 
I'm chuffed folks have got something from these pics,i know i go off on one every now and again,but it always seems to be worth it 
take care buddy
Stu


----------



## frogfreak

Nice photos, Stu!

I keep going back and looking at the attachi froglets...Drool...:mf_dribble:

Cheers


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> Nice photos, Stu!
> 
> I keep going back and looking at the attachi froglets...Drool...:mf_dribble:
> 
> Cheers


It kills me you are so far away mate,:bash:I'd love to see some in your hands
I'm really set on getting these as big as possible thanks for the thoughts on this the otherday. Glenn its also an eye opener,how the colours develope,plus the variation in individuals,considering how similar the parents are.We are just morphing out the last lot i think:blush:.
I'm also looking into developing more efficient methods of wild grub collection,I'll report on this when i have something 
concrete,ihave hunches this will help in my quest.
Damned if i can get hold of some turks
thanks kiddo
Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

Stu - did i miss something?! Who's/what's this?!


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> Stu - did i miss something?! Who's/what's this?!
> 
> image


I'am a bad person Jamie:lol2:,i first posted one of these a while back,every now and again somebody clocks it and i get a PM about them,ya know OMG where did you get those??? I didn't know you had THEM:mf_dribble: when you came here he was sat right beside you with his friend,I'm sorry mate i was seriously up for a laugh last night,the devil made me do it honest:Na_Na_Na_Na:,but it is just good enough to fool some folks if i get the camera angles right.

My mate whom got me into darts got them for us,he was taking the p*ss because we spent so long researching and had no frogs
may i present OOphaga plasticus lemanii..made in taiwan:lol2:
here's the 2 of them











So i do apologise for being bad,but I'm sure you've already got a smile on your face:2thumb: and that was my goal,It will be a while for sure before the real thing is here,if ever from legit stock. But,J, they were here though, i believe around the time i first kept phibs,someone was talking about them recently,i think on dendroworld,retailing around £7 i think,he had apet shop back then.how times have changed ! 
sorry mate

best
Stu


----------



## frogman955

Haha damn good there Stu.
You need to talk to Richard the next time you meet him as he has plants all over his frog room inc on the ceiling.
He has frogs and spiders all over them lol.
Last week Julia and Holly about had a fit, especially Holly as she hates spiders.

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Haha damn good there Stu.
> You need to talk to Richard the next time you meet him as he has plants all over his frog room inc on the ceiling.
> He has frogs and spiders all over them lol.
> Last week Julia and Holly about had a fit, especially Holly as she hates spiders.
> 
> Mike


he he then i'm not the only bad guy out there,mate,maybe its a dartkeepers thing ,hmm shaz hates spiders too and me mum,seeing the consequences caused by a great big black house spider running out from under the Tv here during the scarey bit in the barn, in the film arachnaphobia is a thing i will never ever forget,2 grown women were suddenly on top of the back of our settee,they scared the living crap out of me:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## frogman955

Hey Stu i`ve had a few looks in the Caucheros viv today and i`m seeing youngsters running about.
Just dont know how many there are.

Mike


----------



## Cornish-J

soundstounite said:


> I'am a bad person Jamie:lol2:,i first posted one of these a while back,every now and again somebody clocks it and i get a PM about them,ya know OMG where did you get those??? I didn't know you had THEM:mf_dribble: when you came here he was sat right beside you with his friend,I'm sorry mate i was seriously up for a laugh last night,the devil made me do it honest:Na_Na_Na_Na:,but it is just good enough to fool some folks if i get the camera angles right.
> 
> My mate whom got me into darts got them for us,he was taking the p*ss because we spent so long researching and had no frogs
> may i present OOphaga plasticus lemanii..made in taiwan:lol2:
> here's the 2 of them
> 
> image
> 
> 
> So i do apologise for being bad,but I'm sure you've already got a smile on your face:2thumb: and that was my goal,It will be a while for sure before the real thing is here,if ever from legit stock. But,J, they were here though, i believe around the time i first kept phibs,someone was talking about them recently,i think on dendroworld,retailing around £7 i think,he had apet shop back then.how times have changed !
> sorry mate
> 
> best
> Stu


 
how'd i fall for that lol ... git!!


----------



## frogfreak

Good one, Stu! :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Hey Stu i`ve had a few looks in the Caucheros viv today and i`m seeing youngsters running about.
> Just dont know how many there are.
> 
> Mike


Mike I've said this before,but its worth saying again,you will win this one,your :censor: amazing to have got this far and stuck at it,seriously awesome kiddo, :notworthy:
next up is those photos of them 3/4 grown then I'm going to drink too much to celebrate for both of us :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> how'd i fall for that lol ... git!!


Ahh mate,don't beat yourself up,i am a devious b*st*rd when i want to be,you are by no means the first,:2thumb: At least i didn't run with it:whistling2:

I'm just waiting now as i popped that into an american forum last night too:gasp:,things had got a bit serious over there,so i wanted to have some fun,make a few folks smile,maybe lighten the place up abit they probably won't see the funny side though,:lol2:
i know you guys like a crack as well as trying our best for our frogs

Sorry dude I'ma bad person

the mysties good kiddo:2thumb:
best 
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> Good one, Stu! :lol2:


Shhh let' s see what happens,it might take a while though:whistling2:

:gasp:
Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

yea good mate, growing and calling!

Still not as brave as your guys though 


DSC_0016 by .JayD., on Flickr


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> yea good mate, growing and calling!
> 
> Still not as brave as your guys though
> 
> [URL=http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8295/7764690796_2ca35de19f_b.jpg]image[/url]
> DSC_0016 by .JayD., on Flickr


J thanks for that,not the circle of spots with one in the center,that marking seems to being passed down from one of the parents.they look fabulous,well done mate.J i'm presuming only the one has called? didn't i mumble something abut atrio,or was that a different batch? Its going to real interesting to see when the breeding kicks in J,i have no time frame for this,so we'll at least be able to put a ball park on what age a mystie can breed at

thanks again mate,we are actually learning stuff from as this that i just can't find in books

best
Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

definately heard two calling (at least).

Couldn't tell you which ones though, they are very illusive


----------



## Cornish-J

Hey Stu - thought you might like this one...


Mysti Calling by .JayD., on Flickr


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> Hey Stu - thought you might like this one...
> 
> [URL=http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8304/7765266074_0e1a7e0073_b.jpg]image[/url]
> Mysti Calling by .JayD., on Flickr


yeah we do like mate,bugger.2 males,well at least i'm honest when i say i can't sex darts, I was hoping the wild stab was right though:bashh great its raining,yup luecs are at it mysties are calling,mind he never shuts up anyway all good:2thumb:
J i wonder why they have gone shy,and finally the bit of wood with the little ferns springing out he's sitting on looks wicked man :mf_dribble:

Stu


----------



## Robert Manrique

J that is one awesome pic, good on ya!


----------



## Yemen

Cornish-J said:


> Hey Stu - thought you might like this one...
> 
> [URL=http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8304/7765266074_0e1a7e0073_b.jpg]image[/url]
> Mysti Calling by .JayD., on Flickr


Nice!


----------



## soundstounite

Not much is it,a little ice cream tub,a few minutes sweeping around the water butts,with alittle aquarium net,like being akid again,and you can't see the effect that this has on numerous tads,the activity this creates,they get wise to this very very early and hunting commences,many cruising the top of the glass,actively hunting
i tend to clobber any pupae, I don't really want mossie in our house, but the the rest have little to no chance,provided they aren't to big for the tad, I have so much time for this kind of food for our frogs and the tadpole stage, It takes me back i guess to when all this culturing wasn't in place.......no water pollution no decay in nutients,just good wholesome grub.

Tad food










Stu


----------



## soundstounite

No pics ,but just mad.We went for walk today in an old dissused quarry in the wolds,i was hoping to see some herps,maybe catch up with a lizad grass snake or even adders and slow worms under bits of old corrugated steel lying around,imagine our utter amazement on lifting a red hot bit of tin up that was in full sun all day to find not one but 3 toads crouching underneath,unreal,the tin was almost too hot to touch,oh we did find 2 of the most stunning bronze striped slow worms too,funny I've only ever seen the kids with stripes before today
crazy huh
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> No pics ,but just mad.We went for walk today in an old dissused quarry in the wolds,i was hoping to see some herps,maybe catch up with a lizad grass snake or even adders and slow worms under bits of old corrugated steel lying around,imagine our utter amazement on lifting a red hot bit of tin up that was in full sun all day to find not one but 3 toads crouching underneath,unreal,the tin was almost too hot to touch,oh we did find 2 of the most stunning bronze striped slow worms too,funny I've only ever seen the kids with stripes before today
> crazy huh
> Stu


I still love finding slow worms- it's the kid in me! :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I still love finding slow worms- it's the kid in me! :2thumb:


tell me about it:lol2:
Stu


----------



## shaneharrison

having just spent a couple of hours reading this thread all i can say is that this is remarkable! i stumbled upon the thread as i'm looking to keep a few darts (i keep snakes and lizards, so want something a little different), and jesus wept - this is an inspiration!

definitely got some motivation to get something sorted now. thanks! a big pat on the back from me for your outstanding effort and dedication.


----------



## soundstounite

shaneharrison said:


> having just spent a couple of hours reading this thread all i can say is that this is remarkable! i stumbled upon the thread as i'm looking to keep a few darts (i keep snakes and lizards, so want something a little different), and jesus wept - this is an inspiration!
> 
> definitely got some motivation to get something sorted now. thanks! a big pat on the back from me for your outstanding effort and dedication.


Hey Shane,:welcome: to the insanity caused by small brightly coloured frogs,thank you for the lovely words mate,very kind.:notworthy:
Shane there are some great plus points,to these wonderful frogs,that makes then so special for us,which i'm sure you've already clocked ,but its worth going over just for the hell of it.First and lest profound,ha ha depending on your outlook, we have kept animals all our lives pretty much,this is the one that doesn't get cleaned out:2thumb:
ok the more mind numbing stuff: We create little ecosytems in a glass box,some are amazing little replications of a slice of rainforest,they need a bit of a trim now and again and a top up with custodians,but the fact that this can be accomplished in a glass box is bewildering to me.You have so many skills do absorb within dart keeping,first up will always be mastering a steady supply of small food,plant growing, background building,maybe tank building.researching the chosen species,and building for that,the actual concepts surrounding breeding and stopping them:lol2:,then rearing tads marveling at metamorphosis,rearing froglets.The actual frogs themselves are such a joy being diurnal,being active,the parental care is amongst the highest out there in the amphibian kingdom,oophaga is astounding.
Shane, throw in the fact that most dart guys help each other out,or try their damn best to.............hmm i don't need to say much more about this do I.
Enjoy mate:2thumb:
bring it on

Stu .


----------



## shaneharrison

at risk of sounding like i'm crawling up your jacksie, your words are fascinating to read hehe. i love the idea of creating an eco-system and replicating as best to my ability a natural environment for something that is unnatural (as in not native) to this country. keeping snakes, i must admit that i have gone for simplicity and ease as far as husbandry is concerned, but i think frogs really give me the urge to offer something more (despite it also being an absolute necessity for the health and upkeep of the animal).

thank you for the words. i need to continue my research until i feel comfortable with everything, then get the setup up and running. i think i'd like to have the set-up going for quite some time before i actually put any frogs in there. 

which species would you recommend for a froggy novice such as myself? i know there are many many beautiful creatures i could possibly choose from, but i'm interested to know which you would advise.

many thanks!


----------



## Ron Magpie

*Getting slightly worried about Stu's 'jacksie'...* :gasp::gasp::gasp:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> *Getting slightly worried about Stu's 'jacksie'...* :gasp::gasp::gasp:


:lol2::lol2::lol2: you kill me dude.
now I've got to go back so i can remember what the hell i was going to say to Shane,LMFAO

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

shaneharrison said:


> at risk of sounding like i'm crawling up your jacksie, your words are fascinating to read hehe. i love the idea of creating an eco-system and replicating as best to my ability a natural environment for something that is unnatural (as in not native) to this country. keeping snakes, i must admit that i have gone for simplicity and ease as far as husbandry is concerned, but i think frogs really give me the urge to offer something more (despite it also being an absolute necessity for the health and upkeep of the animal).
> 
> thank you for the words. i need to continue my research until i feel comfortable with everything, then get the setup up and running. i think i'd like to have the set-up going for quite some time before i actually put any frogs in there.
> 
> which species would you recommend for a froggy novice such as myself? i know there are many many beautiful creatures i could possibly choose from, but i'm interested to know which you would advise.
> 
> many thanks!


your welcome kiddo,i'll just ignore the first line hey mate:lol2:

Shane,if you do the homework then frogs that you really like the look of would be my initial take,but i'll qualify that,with there are a few frogs that are seriously recommended,one i don't keep, Epidiobates tricolour,so if these grab you you should talk to others. I'd personally recommend Leucs...leucamedas.they are bold forgiving fabulous call hilarious in there antics and can be kept in groups.They are often a long term keepers first frog and still remain one of the must haves in big collections,because they are so enchanting i guess. It's probably the morph from venezula your after,as there are several different types(morphs) young stock are available around the £30 mark each. 
If you are serious about this then i'd say start like this,get a starter culture of dwarf white tropical woodlice in,they take yonks to get going,and you'll never have enough,they take little looking after ,but a damn long time to build big numbers.Second i'd read every thing you can about culturing ff,maybe even get some cultures in and master this mess around with some receipes,you can always sell off any surplus if you find yourself over run,you'll find some reciepes can be smelly,and you could get problems with mites,so its really worth getting this down way before you have any frogs,even if you just arm your self with the knowledge and then stop,while you get the other,facets in to place,same pretty much goes for culturing springtails.
I'll stop there for awhile mate,need to do stuff.
Taking this slow mate learning hard,will really benefit you and the frogs later,maybe not as slow as us,but this last sentence i know to be true!!!

Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

Stu, how did you do this!!!










My water section just gets full of bits of sphagnum .. i cant keep them seperate


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> Stu, how did you do this!!!
> 
> image
> 
> My water section just gets full of bits of sphagnum .. i cant keep them seperate


I have magic gifts my friend when it comes to moss:no1:.........ha more bollox:lol2:
J its a sheet of a native moss,that is ,not sphaghnum,maybe thats the answer,honestly buddy you've got me here,i have never had the problem your seeing so damn difficult to answer,i bet its the type of moss,probably off a native tree..ash or oak,that's been felled somewhere or other,then stashed and dried out

Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

ah ok Stu - no probs mate, i'll try and improvise!


----------



## soundstounite

Guys I'm going to go through our method of culturing springtails,I'm being constantly asked about this, .There are many methods of doing this and many types of springtail so they may well need different methods to the one I'm using. I've just got a couple of different types in to try out,so in time we'll all find out whether this method that is working for us is universal .......to some degree or not. yes i have tried many methods!!! This ,to follow, is the most stable, is providing us with enough to feed many kids,and gradually expand our stocks,without buying in,just working from one starter,ok a good un ,thanks Darren
Before i go any further I'll thank Mike (frogman 955i) and Glenn(frogfreak) for making me think about things in a slightly different way,whether we use the same methods is irrelevent what is important is their imput to mine and Shaz's personal quest to never being short of springs and not being reliant on buying other cultures in, cheers to both of you really nice folks from far off strange talking lands:Na_Na_Na_Na: ie Scotland and Canada 

Anyway for you lot,the charcoal method
Basically one needs charcoal,NOT THE EASY LIGHTING STUFF,source this from Morrisons petrol station in an orange bag costs £5 or other sources We can use a variety of different containers,principally working on bigger is better,my favourites are a £3 tub from morrisons about 14" square and the bird fat ball tubs. As feed we are going to use Allinsons yeast.
A method
Pop the charcoal ina 10 L flower pot to act as a sieve,and wash the hell out of it by pouring rainwater over it.If you abit mad like me and actually believe water is something precious then pop the flower pot on a crate and the crate on abucket,then you can catch the water and charcoal dust and use this on your veggies.
So you now have a clean pot of charcoal with no dust on it,bang it in a big pot, fill with more rainwater,put a lid on this. pop this on the cooker and boil it .
you now have a sterilised pot of charcoal with absolutely no mites present.
Leave the lid on this put it outside and let it cool,this will take along time,but leave it cool naturally as this way your charcoal will contain alot of water,if you tip the water away it will cool quicker,but the charcoal will dry out,you don't want this..
Clean up your said container of choice,and keep back some big lumps of charcoal for the top. 
Put the smaller charcoal lumps at the bottom,and one big lump in a corner,this is important
now top off the culture with all those big lumps you saved,putting the flatest sides uppermost

Pour rainwater over the top,so you have about an inch of water in the bottom,pay real attention to those big flat lumps you want them wet!!!

Pour little piles of your yeast on to the flats so you don't spill much yeast,mist the yeast so you have little wet piles of food for your springs.

now add your springtails,Ha this might be tricky so I'll chuck some methods at you.
You can place abit of say xaxim in your ecoearth based culture and tap this into the charcoal one.
you can blow the springs into your charcoal culture using a straw,or you can flood the culture and again blow the springs off the top.
Or one can simply place the whole culture in the charcoal one and not feed it letting the springs migrate to the food source.

Best method is dependant on your circumstances,always remember springs are masters of walking on water mites are not.....use this one!!!!!

now you have your seeded culture ,open it every other day or more often if you wish yeast can produce CO2 so regular venting of the culture helps negate O2 starvation,yeah its unvented,it carries a risk,leave it and,what can i say one keeps darts one makes sh*t happen,the reason its unvented is hopefully no access to mites,there are ways around this,but i haven't yet found them here,so the graft ethic replaces this...until.......
Replace the yeast as it gets used up,I'm still working out the hows and whys of this,but make sure they have enough,but not too much,work it out i guess is the answer:Na_Na_Na_Na:
These cultures will last,if one changes the water every few weeks,this my friends is a big deal,some springtails produce inhibitors its documented,some maybe don't,but all excrete waste,so every couple of weeks or so suck out all that water,swill it around and this is why there is that damn big lump of charcoal in a corner,pull it out and tip the culture towards this corner.whip out your old trusty turkey baster,suck out the water from the bottom.Remember springs are masters of walking on water,so you'll not be sucking them up,just all that waste,which will stop the buggers breeding.
I think I've got all of it so I'll post this and do a few pics,not all of what i wanted,but what i could do today.bugger there is more:bash:
Every time you open this container mist the top with your hand mister!!!!!!!!!!
Springtails and woodlice require a source of Ca to produce at optimum,so i'm experimenting with grated cuttle fish bone as an easy source,yes we popped it in the microwave just to be sure no mites present
when you feed........ well thats why there are those big lumps at the top,pull one covered in springs,and tap into the frogets,or adults it matters not,what does matter is no bits,no little frogs with ecoearth stuck to their tongues,just little frogs looking up for the food dropping from heaven(yup we have some little guys whom actually look for this,clever bleeders)
Finally I'll repeat there are other methods,find them try them,don't use too much fish flake as the feeders have the capacity to collect large quantities of tocopherols,which can inhibit your frogs uptake of Ca,the science is out there,but it wouldn't be any fun if i did it all for you. Grain mites don't eat yeast so way less of a problem in these cultures,oh and if they are,well wash the buggers away at water change.
Now can i post some pics he said with warn out fingies:lol2:
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Cornish-J said:


> ah ok Stu - no probs mate, i'll try and improvise!


Don't use dried sphagnum, use the live. Problem solved. 

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

the rest
the grub








poured into little piles note Ca source on the side









fresh piles of yeast misted gently


















Morrisons containers









fat ball containers plus trusty turkey baster,an essential tool for dart guys









clearly marked culture set up date and (WC) = water change,mark this up you'll notice a year on the date,yup they will do this long,mark every one you'll forget this stuff for sure this means even guys like me can keep track of these important dates









enough springs from one starter culture to feed god knows how many kids plus adults and every container we have got our grubby mitts on

















overal view of a culture








and , well the reason for it all










One method for springtails that works

QUADRAT ET DEMONSTRANDUM (QED= proved and demonstrated)

bring it on 

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

ah hell fat ball containers


----------



## Spikebrit

Stu you have some fat ball's there hehehehe


----------



## soundstounite

Spikebrit said:


> Stu you have some fat ball's there hehehehe


:lol2:
oh well i did try ,i guess you 'll like this too Jay, as my photo uploading skill weren't really that good,here's a pic that deserves a better explanation 

tilt the container over to the corner where the big lump of charcoal has been removed, then using the turkey baster suck out the waste water.this approach seems to be really important to the longevity of a culture,you can also wash mites down into the water and,remove at least some of them as they don't have the abilities that springtails have to walk on water,as always take every possibly precaution to start with a mite free culture,using mite paper under the container is also a great idea if possible










Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Oh to add to this if anyone is doing real well with a different method of culturing springs in quantity, and you'ld like to post a detailed method for folks i would be really grateful. It will give some balance to what I've found successful and also alternative methods for folks to try out
thanks guys 

Stu


----------



## frogman955

I do appologise Stu, but, did I see a turkey baster there ?


Mike :lol2::lol2::lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> I do appologise Stu, but, did I see a turkey baster there ?
> 
> 
> Mike :lol2::lol2::lol2:


Cor that was lucky,i thought i was going to have to start the whole thread again, nah mate its one of those fancy things Jay uses:whistling2: LMAO

Any thing you can add on the springtails bro, I'd really like to have as much knowledge in one place as possible,on this,so folks can get a really balanced detailed take on culturing them. they are such an important part of the viv ecosystem and such an important feeder,especially for the young or sick frogs.

the above plea goes out to anyone whom help with any other detailed methods.i know they can be bought in,but a degree of success with these will be very important to any growing dart collection,

Stu


----------



## richie.b

Stu i would tell you my secret of culturing springtails but i would then have to kill you :gasp: nar as you know im shite at it so just buy them in from Germany :2thumb:


Richie


----------



## marcuswinner1

richie.b said:


> Stu i would tell you my secret of culturing springtails but i would then have to kill you :gasp: nar as you know im shite at it so just buy them in from Germany :2thumb:
> 
> 
> Richie


Good to hear someone like Richie say this. I would like to also admit that I am also shite at it and so I get them from Spanner, Its so simple, I give him some money, he gives me a billion springtails in a tub.:2thumb:

Marcus


----------



## Wolfenrook

I am just going to say that it's not what you culture them on or in, it's how and what you feed them with. I've found cultures do just as well on soil type substrates, leca or even orchid bark if you feed them right.

I tried yeast, the co2 produced gasses the culture if you don't make sure you open it very regularly. I tried ready brek, it moulds really badly. I tried mushrooms, springs didn't even look at them. I tried fish flakes, my cultures never really exploded. So I went back to buying springtail food from Dartfrog, and once again my cultures are doing brilliantly, feeding little and often so they never run out but never have so much it has time to mould.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Stu i would tell you my secret of culturing springtails but i would then have to kill you :gasp: nar as you know im shite at it so just buy them in from Germany :2thumb:
> 
> 
> Richie


Same as it ever was:lol2:,actually Shaz regularly kills me for less.its a hard life bro.

Richie,we'll see how it goes with the German cultures and the above charcoal method,if it works,then finally i'll be able to help you for a change mate, instead of you always helping me/us,:censor: me that would be cool,I'd love that:2thumb:
oh I'm also trialing Nicky's on the same method,see these ruddy big containers,will feed all those beautiful pums no sweat,oh and the tincs and the others: victory: failing those two,I'll get you some of these brummie ones I'm using,they are a great springtail Rich they get so big as adults
Still work to do Richie,i have another type of yeast yet to trial thanks to Glenn, and probably other methods, which I'm hoping will appear here:whip::whip: this will probably be a work in progress,but so far so good,lots of froglets fed well and still racking out more cultures just in case. I'm an independent old sod aren't I:lol2: 

thanks mate

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> I am just going to say that it's not what you culture them on or in, it's how and what you feed them with. I've found cultures do just as well on soil type substrates, leca or even orchid bark if you feed them right.
> 
> I tried yeast, the co2 produced gasses the culture if you don't make sure you open it very regularly. I tried ready brek, it moulds really badly. I tried mushrooms, springs didn't even look at them. I tried fish flakes, my cultures never really exploded. So I went back to buying springtail food from Dartfrog, and once again my cultures are doing brilliantly, feeding little and often so they never run out but never have so much it has time to mould.
> 
> Ade


The collembola stuff Ade? i couldn't do it mate it would cost a fortune. but it contains yeast too if I've got the same stuff,i think your spot on with the feeding though mate,how long have you had a culture running 
Stu?


----------



## rimonex

soundstounite said:


> Oh to add to this if anyone is doing real well with a different method of culturing springs in quantity, and you'ld like to post a detailed method for folks i would be really grateful. It will give some balance to what I've found successful and also alternative methods for folks to try out
> thanks guys
> 
> Stu



Been using eco earth mixed with orchid bark and brown rice sprinkled on top, (can't for the life of me remember where someone suggested it) but works well, although it does develope mould the springs seem to love eating the mould.


----------



## soundstounite

marcuswinner1 said:


> Good to hear someone like Richie say this. I would like to also admit that I am also shite at it and so I get them from Spanner, Its so simple, I give him some money, he gives me a billion springtails in a tub.:2thumb:
> 
> Marcus


yeah folks do struggle Marcus,but none of us should have to and we all should have oodles of these feeders not only for froglets ,but adults too,what is scaring me slightly is the thought that a supply might one day dry up,if one is in the middle of a breeding season ...well i don't want to go there. Hmm i haven't bought any ff for 18 month now,oh we'll try some turks i think,i can't find any for love nor money,i recommend David too mate,have done in the last few days,but i don't want to buy the buggers,not in the quantity we need to keep these tincs auratus and leucs boiling,plus when the others start,well you can see why i'm really hunting this one down. mind its not only for me this thread has always been about some little kid somewhere whom hasn't got much,but is hell bent on keeping some frogs,i know that kid,he's abit older now:Na_Na_Na_Na:
good to hear from ya bro,too long buddyhope your all good
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

rimonex said:


> Been using eco earth mixed with orchid bark and brown rice sprinkled on top, (can't for the life of me remember where someone suggested it) but works well, although it does develope mould the springs seem to love eating the mould.


thanks for the imput...same question as i put to Ade buddy,how long have you had a culture running
cheers 

Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

I still have 2 cultures Stu running from when I first started keeping darts. 

Maybe there's just less yeast in the food or something? But definitely never had a culture crash on me whilst using it. Heck it's probably just a mix of the stuff folks use DIY, but it works for me, and that's all I care about. 

Ade


----------



## rimonex

soundstounite said:


> thanks for the imput...same question as i put to Ade buddy,how long have you had a culture running
> cheers
> 
> Stu



Not really registered it but the cultures been running for a year now :gasp:. Thought it was a bit less than that. Had a couple of population crashes when I first got it, moved onto rice and the current population seems to be fairly stable at the mo, last 2 months at least, although I'm thinking of trying splitting it to see if this helps keep it going.


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Same as it ever was:lol2:,actually Shaz regularly kills me for less.its a hard life bro.
> 
> Richie,we'll see how it goes with the German cultures and the above charcoal method,if it works,then finally i'll be able to help you for a change mate, instead of you always helping me/us,:censor: me that would be cool,I'd love that:2thumb:
> oh I'm also trialing Nicky's on the same method,see these ruddy big containers,will feed all those beautiful pums no sweat,oh and the tincs and the others: victory: failing those two,I'll get you some of these brummie ones I'm using,they are a great springtail Rich they get so big as adults
> Still work to do Richie,i have another type of yeast yet to trial thanks to Glenn, and probably other methods, which I'm hoping will appear here:whip::whip: this will probably be a work in progress,but so far so good,lots of froglets fed well and still racking out more cultures just in case. I'm an independent old sod aren't I:lol2:
> 
> thanks mate
> 
> Stu


I dont believe that of Shaz :gasp:

I sell quite a lot of the tropical ones from Germany so its just easier to buy them in, but feeding that stuff i showed you the cultures do explode again after ive used them. I do keep these quite dry though which is what i was told to do by the bloke in Germany that does them. The ones from Nick though which i think are temperate springs i keep on wet peat and these are booming so dont get any problems with them breeding.
I will do a trial in a big container with the tropical ones ive got from what ive been told and let you know how they get on : victory:

cheers
Richie


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> I dont believe that of Shaz :gasp:
> 
> I sell quite a lot of the tropical ones from Germany so its just easier to buy them in, but feeding that stuff i showed you the cultures do explode again after ive used them. I do keep these quite dry though which is what i was told to do by the bloke in Germany that does them. The ones from Nick though which i think are temperate springs i keep on wet peat and these are booming so dont get any problems with them breeding.
> I will do a trial in a big container with the tropical ones ive got from what ive been told and let you know how they get on : victory:
> 
> cheers
> Richie


He he,she's just lovely mate,:lol2:

Yeah it would be great to know what's in that German feed mix.No doubts the cultures are as good as any out there I've seen Richie ,that goes for the ones that Nicky(frognick) produces too,of the temperate species,my culture i had of him was a corker. i'm just about to put the ones from you on charcoal,they might not thrive ,buddy ,as you say these seem to like it dry,if they don't do well, i'll bring a start of these we have to creaks,they will do in a big tub,i know that now. This one method may well not be the best for all these different species,that simple fact might be why some folks struggle,in that you need to tailor the method to the particular springtail. LMAO it would be damn nice if i knew what each one was called:lol2: .
thanks for the other day mate, awesome,oh and the imput on the springtails,we can never have too many methinks
best
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> I still have 2 cultures Stu running from when I first started keeping darts.
> 
> Maybe there's just less yeast in the food or something? But definitely never had a culture crash on me whilst using it. Heck it's probably just a mix of the stuff folks use DIY, but it works for me, and that's all I care about.
> 
> Ade


In the same containers Ade or splits from them.well done mate:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

rimonex said:


> Not really registered it but the cultures been running for a year now :gasp:. Thought it was a bit less than that. Had a couple of population crashes when I first got it, moved onto rice and the current population seems to be fairly stable at the mo, last 2 months at least, although I'm thinking of trying splitting it to see if this helps keep it going.


And again good stuff buddy,its nice too see these different methods coming through and folks are having some sucesses,you don't know what species your cuturing do you?

Guys thanks for all the imput,if anyone else can add to this I'd be really grateful

especially detail thanks all
best
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

soundstounite said:


> In the same containers Ade or splits from them.well done mate:2thumb:
> Stu


Same containers Stu, on orchid bark. One of them even has a population of greyish springtails that appeared on their own. lol I used to regularly scoop out half the orchid bark to feed that way, and replace half, which is probably how I have avoided them crashing for so long. 

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Same containers Stu, on orchid bark. One of them even has a population of greyish springtails that appeared on their own. lol I used to regularly scoop out half the orchid bark to feed that way, and replace half, which is probably how I have avoided them crashing for so long.
> 
> Ade


Good stuff mate,thanks for the details

Godammit I'm jumping,the summersi viv had got seriously overgrown,I've been leaving it as apparently they really like a dark understory.anyway ,today i thought it really was time i did something,so had a good clean out to let at least some light in,at the back is a can which i pulled out with fresh jelly in there, but no embroys, so probably we have a rogue snail,almost worse is we had conditions right for them to breed and now I've changed it around,what a dummy,i looked half heartedly at the cans before starting,but for once not thorough enough.Hell,i might have been on the way to the first summersi CB in the uk well its a big "might",but you can see why i'm banging me head against a wall. Still the one to pin down with our current darts,yeah we been pretty close before ,but not this close,probably yesterday' eggs,that'll teach me to be so absorbed in the leucs last night i didn't think to check the summersi viv. So i guess,there are 2 possible reasons,one the more obvious rogue snail,which is weird ,i haven't seen any,or signs of any in this viv.Or just possibly the female is laying eggs without embryos, its not the first time this has happened,:bash::bash::bash:
Damn me a want this one
i'm off lamping now

bring it on
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

I feel your pain bud, found my first ever batch of leuc eggs yesterday, just jelly the same. Could another summersi of scoffed the embryos at all?

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> I feel your pain bud, found my first ever batch of leuc eggs yesterday, just jelly the same. Could another summersi of scoffed the embryos at all?
> 
> Ade


thanks Ade,only her male,so I'GUESS!! highly unlikely,Ade i'm not 100% sure i've seen egg eating,but i have had remnants of a clutch,where i would suspect egg eating,its didn't look the same as a clutch eaten by a snail,which i highly suspect is the culprit. I've just gone over the whole tank can't find the sod for love nor money.I would think egg eating by a rival female in the group,well, she would pretty much consume the lot,not leave the jelly.I've clobbered a snail egg eating in the past,red handed,i oft pull the eggs last thing at night.They will only take the embryo.i'd lay abet thats where both of our problems lie.It is definately possible that a rival female leuc will egg eat. i've not yet come across eggs being laid without embyos in darts,my gut says this must also be possible,but in all the reading i've done it must be a fairly rare event to have not yet read about it,i think this is the third time time now here,that I've found remnants,this one definately the freshest.Fantasica clade are meant to not like too much disturbance so i try and give them some space,plus its said to hide the cans in the leaf litter,facing away from the doors none of which make daily checks the easiest.But maybe thats going to be the only option,if i haven't disturbed them so much already that they give up for now,that is.Mark Pepper told me they often breed for 2/3 months then just stop, summersi seem to be real tricky/fussy. they would be way more about if that wasn't the case i suppose,That's without all this bollox that has happened here/europe recently with the imis:devil:
you'll be sorted soon enough mate with the leucs,no worries: victory:,i think i'll be wrestling this one a while longer yet. Once i have a fertile egg in my hand that will be a major breakthrough,sure the battle won't be won,but I'll be absolutely cast iron sure that i have a true pr and we haven't been caught in the aforementioned mix ups, it will just remove that tiny doubt.It is tiny too,as I'm also told by Mark that the courtship would not be happening,across the species,nice to be certain though
Stu


----------



## henry415

This has got to be the best thread I've ever seen anywhere on the internet!


----------



## rimonex

soundstounite said:


> And again good stuff buddy,its nice too see these different methods coming through and folks are having some sucesses,you don't know what species your cuturing do you?


The springs are _a tropical springtail (Seria _sp.) we got from berksmike.

Also sorry to hear about your loss


----------



## soundstounite

henry415 said:


> This has got to be the best thread I've ever seen anywhere on the internet!


Thankyou Henry,mate sometimes these printed words leave me abit suprised,to say the least,this would be one of those moments,thankyou for the kindness
regards
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

rimonex said:


> The springs are _a tropical springtail (Seria _sp.) we got from berksmike.
> 
> Also sorry to hear about your loss


Cheers buddy,the more details we can cram in the more others have a chance of getting going well with their cultures of springtails.
Buddy the summersi are not really a loss,if thats what your referring to. Its just,i'm frustrated with myself,for not being more diligent, they are tricky to breed and to come so close is just damn frustrating.We are desperate to rear some,of these,there are so few here plus they are such cool little guys to keep,one day maybe...
thanks again

Stu


----------



## debsandpets

Wow, having read this from start to finish today, it is definately an insight for a newbie wanting to keep darts in the future. The only problems I am thinking are sourcing a nicely planted ready set up viv of the dimensions that I need for a certain space .............

Some amazingly helpful info on this whole thread, but also a bit scary too :blush: for someone who has kept every type of animal bar reptiles/phibs until this year.

Realistically I will have to wait probably until next year at least until I can set up a viv (ideally get one as a mature planted set up), but at least it gives me more time to decide which type of darts I want to keep, the current list is about 6 different ones - mainly of the Ranitomeya types, but also like a couple of dendrobates too :whistling2:

Really fantastic reading, and I can't wait to see how all those tadpoles develop and morph ............
Good luck with it all, very jealous that you seem to have both the time and most definately the ability to produce all those fantastic set ups for your frogs

Debs


----------



## Ron Magpie

debsandpets said:


> Wow, having read this from start to finish today, it is definately an insight for a newbie wanting to keep darts in the future. *The only problems I am thinking are sourcing a nicely planted ready set up viv of the dimensions that I need for a certain space .............
> *
> Some amazingly helpful info on this whole thread, but also a bit scary too :blush: for someone who has kept every type of animal bar reptiles/phibs until this year.
> 
> Realistically I will have to wait probably until next year at *least until I can set up a viv (ideally get one as a mature planted set up)*, but at least it gives me more time to decide which type of darts I want to keep, the current list is about 6 different ones - mainly of the Ranitomeya types, but also like a couple of dendrobates too :whistling2:
> 
> Really fantastic reading, and I can't wait to see how all those tadpoles develop and morph ............
> Good luck with it all, very jealous that you seem to have both the time and most definately the ability to produce all those fantastic set ups for your frogs
> 
> Debs


Check out Richies website: Rainforest Vivariums

He builds to order, but I have a feeling he doesn't deliver. He's often at the shows, though.


----------



## soundstounite

debsandpets said:


> Wow, having read this from start to finish today, it is definately an insight for a newbie wanting to keep darts in the future. The only problems I am thinking are sourcing a nicely planted ready set up viv of the dimensions that I need for a certain space .............
> 
> Some amazingly helpful info on this whole thread, but also a bit scary too :blush: for someone who has kept every type of animal bar reptiles/phibs until this year.
> 
> Realistically I will have to wait probably until next year at least until I can set up a viv (ideally get one as a mature planted set up), but at least it gives me more time to decide which type of darts I want to keep, the current list is about 6 different ones - mainly of the Ranitomeya types, but also like a couple of dendrobates too :whistling2:
> 
> Really fantastic reading, and I can't wait to see how all those tadpoles develop and morph ............
> Good luck with it all, very jealous that you seem to have both the time and most definately the ability to produce all those fantastic set ups for your frogs
> 
> Debs


Hey Debs,can i start with a proper thanks,kinds words and glad you got something from all this thankyou!!!!!

Now i want to get on to you and where your going,i keep hammering on about getting feeders early,start there mate,no frogs no pressure,really get to grips with it,its is just so important for darts.
Next my buddy from Canada, Glenn...frogfreak pointed something out recently that had never really occurred to me before (we build our own vivs from scratch why would it:bash,that happens here alot.I think its particularly worth mentioning to you.Don't buy a planted set up that has already had frogs in,you can buy them ,but please don't.there might have been issues( illness desease etc) with the previous inhabitants. This might not be what your thinking about at all,but it is so worth me taking time to get this over.Richie (B) occasionally makes up planted vivs,(rainforest vivs) hell i knock the odd one out for friends here and there aswell,but not that have had any previous inhabitants:we don't really know what is out there at the moment,so just start safe Debs:2thumb:
Debs,don't be intimadated by building your own viv for your chosen frogs,you can do it,there is lots of help here,Ade Mike Richie Glenn and lots of others will all help you,i know 'em well enough to know this:2thumb:,we all do things differently,that doesn't matter,you can pick the method that you choose,that will work for you.

Ha the reason i find the time,is partly just that ethos of if you want something ,then go get graft bla bla,you make the time.But it has to be said there are two nutters here side by side doing these frogs,we have been together since kids,and Shaz is seriously good with animals and has that stockmans affinity with them,she see's things that others miss,what we do would be almost impossible with one guy working 6 days plus frogs,not impossible...nothing is!!!! But a damn sight easier with 2 guys that compliment each other and can almost work as a team without needing talk about stuff,thats what you get after god knows how many years of messing with animals together. 

Good luck with your darts Debs,its humbling that we help others get started with these incredible animals, after such a short time. Get the food wired,then relax and see what these little guys get up to,they are way beyond what we thought,maybe its because of their parental care,they are just sharp.
Watch them for a few months,you'll see

bring it on !!!!

Stu


----------



## frogman955

I can`t believe that i`m sitting here reading all this hoohaa about how to keep darts and all along the most important thing of all is being overlooked.



Everyone must have a TURKEY BASTER :2thumb:.

Mike


----------



## debsandpets

Thanks for the reply Stu. I may well end up sourcing a ready made viv, but i will MAKE SURE, it has never had inhabitants before : ie I will end up getting one made especially for the frogs to my requirements I think.
Both me and OH are similar in the fact that I seem to have the stockmans intuition and eye etc, and OH is just the muscle behind the hard work lol !!!
Also we both work full time night shifts, keep horses, sheep, pigs, dogs, cats, chickens and now crested geckos as of this year .................... I don't think I left anyone out :gasp: I will deffo do all necessary homework before deciding what/when etc as I am not sure I would have the time to set one up myself from scratch etc or even for that matter maintain one to get the best from a live planted viv, so lots to decide on.
Thanks again for your informative "blog" on frogs :2thumb:


----------



## debsandpets

Thanks for the link, Ron Magpie. I will definately check this out :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> I can`t believe that i`m sitting here reading all this hoohaa about how to keep darts and all along the most important thing of all is being overlooked.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone must have a TURKEY BASTER :2thumb:.
> 
> Mike


Ahh mate i have to disagree,i think this is the first time i really stongly disagree with you Mike

We should have 2 turkey basters,where's you back up dude:Na_Na_Na_Na:
LMFAO

Stu


----------



## frogman955

soundstounite said:


> Ahh mate i have to disagree,i think this is the first time i really stongly disagree with you Mike
> 
> We should have 2 turkey basters,where's you back up dude:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> LMFAO
> 
> Stu


 
As it happens Stu, I DO have 2 basters :lol2:.

Mike


----------



## Wolfenrook

frogman955 said:


> As it happens Stu, I DO have 2 basters :lol2:.
> 
> Mike


Oddly enough, so do I. lol

No idea where the 1 is though, the Mrs had it last... TO CLEAR OUT THE PUMP ON HERE WTFs!!!

I dunno, the dirty minds on here... :lol2:

Ade


----------



## Ron Magpie

I've only ever needed one- two would be greedy.


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Oddly enough, so do I. lol
> 
> No idea where the 1 is though, the Mrs had it last... TO CLEAR OUT THE PUMP ON HERE WTFs!!!
> 
> I dunno, the dirty minds on here... :lol2:
> 
> Ade


I just don't know Ade,you try to help out a new lass,big up your mates who will help her get started with different ideas,and everyone goes trundling off with their basters: Mind it has to be said Debs now knows how indispensable they are for all dart keepers........even young Michael

Talking of strange minds why do i never see whites tree frogs(WTF) and only what the:censor:,
I'm not even going to comment Mr Magpie


you guys crack me up:no1:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

debsandpets said:


> Thanks for the reply Stu. I may well end up sourcing a ready made viv, but i will MAKE SURE, it has never had inhabitants before : ie I will end up getting one made especially for the frogs to my requirements I think.
> Both me and OH are similar in the fact that I seem to have the stockmans intuition and eye etc, and OH is just the muscle behind the hard work lol !!!
> Also we both work full time night shifts, keep horses, sheep, pigs, dogs, cats, chickens and now crested geckos as of this year .................... I don't think I left anyone out :gasp: I will deffo do all necessary homework before deciding what/when etc as I am not sure I would have the time to set one up myself from scratch etc or even for that matter maintain one to get the best from a live planted viv, so lots to decide on.
> Thanks again for your informative "blog" on frogs :2thumb:


I'll apologise now for the madness that surrounds me here:whistling2:

It is a big subject Debs ,but that is what's so great about it lots to learn,start with dwarf white woodlice,erm soon as. Then look at every picture of available darts and cut that list down so some frogs,not too difficult and that really appeal to you,
best

Stu


----------



## ronnyjodes

I have zero turkey basters


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Any updates for us Stu, were all getting dartroom withdrawals??

:2thumb:

John


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Any updates for us Stu, were all getting dartroom withdrawals??
> 
> :2thumb:
> 
> John


hello buddy,i hope your good mate,John can you PM me an email please,I'm not sure my messages are reaching you.
yeah i suppose i have been abit quiet,the endless stream of folks needing a little help plus work frogs,erm frogs and frog food,plus trying to fit some learning in leaves little time

What to tell,well i hope for some pretty exciting news soon, i can't say much yet,but soon hey mate:2thumb:.If things go well for us this excitment will get slightly feverish at around chrimbo time, and possibly worse next year,but i ain't saying nuffin geezer:Na_Na_Na_Na: 
Every thing is good John,I'm super busy. We have just about finished breeding for this year a kick start to the Sb's has yielded 15plus tads on the same day,we'll possibly pull acouple more clutches and then evrything apart from summersi will be slowed up as best we can. i'm just trying for one good clutch from them to round of a mad year.
We have tads growing in viv,in both auratus and one atachibakka,oh and some mysties,maybe they'll rear in tank, but it will be tricky as we need to reduce feed and dry things up abit to stop breeding.
We have recently become aware that the mystie kids are really astute,they are following each others gaze,reacting to our voices and have also worked out,that food comes from up there:whistling2: They are actually raising their heads at feeding time to watch for the ff cup,if one talks they spin around and stare at the one talking,its enchanting. Not really surpising given the parents ability to work out where we might pop the food ,ok we blow it most times but they assemble on a vantage point that we used to use to feed on that central lump of wood in their viv,the minute one starts the tapping,that signals feeding.
No doubt in my mind with patience they could be trained to go to cups etc in viv ,I've read of this,i think there is substance to it.

We have huge quantities of food on the go,I'm still of the view we haven't got enough in a mo. I'll clobber the last 10 or so big springtail cultures and be done for today

:2thumb:Ok that's them done.

The leucs are spectacularly wonderful at the moment,we have all 3 boys yelling their little heads off each morning,hilarious little courtship incidents,like 5 being hounded by bayleaf,dodging under a leaf and her being too damn fat(gravid) to get under there with him,him then feeling he had lost the "lynx factor" poping his head out to see if she was still there,to which she started head bobbing at him furiously.

So tads always... the tub rearing system as ill conceived as it was as it is works seriously well.I like the fact that i can burn all contents after a group of frogs has been through it clean it and reset with ease,its not what i envisaged but it works well. Simple to set up simple to clean out and da froshe kids love it. As we go further,we are starting to put in little details,plant cover for auratus at a given age,a better climbing systen for mysties(a big lump of oak will suffice,to try and keep their weight not too heavy,they burn more energy this way,logical really they are not leaf litter frogs,but from a cliff face. 
Its terribly important i think that we are aware of our potential danger of spreading disease to our wild amphibian populations so we bleach waste water and burn all solid waste,the joys of being old fashioned and having a wood burner to heat our humble gaff.Simple safe recycling at its best,plus abit of hot water on the side.

Its early days to know what size the tinc kids will get too,seeing where we have got the macheto too now,she might just be our biggest frog,I'm full of hope on this one.We are running a heavy campaign of good food more good food and some good grub on top of this,progress so far is great.Its really good seeing the growth rates.Also fun seeing the patterns our phenotypically similar pr are throwing,i wish we had a pale pr as well as our pr,so we could have the full colour range of atachibakka here,the pale ones grab me as almost unique in the tinc morphs,see 8 down 3 across
Tinctorius

There ya go mate,some snippits of the madness here
night all sleep well

bring it on

Stu


----------



## Gaz_dbd

Sounds like everything is going well for you Stu. Keep up the good work!!

Surely the mysties waiting for food lends itself to a great photo opportunity!! (hint hint)

Gaz


----------



## Cornish-J

if i come back as a frog, i want to live at stu's house!


----------



## soundstounite

Gaz_dbd said:


> Sounds like everything is going well for you Stu. Keep up the good work!!
> 
> Surely the mysties waiting for food lends itself to a great photo opportunity!! (hint hint)
> 
> Gaz


Cheers Gaz,yeah Shaz's has been saying it's something we must do, I keep getting handbagged whilst crawling around on the floor pulling out the ever increasing hoards of springs,"have you got the camera":bash::bash::bash:.Meanwhile she's perched on a chair dealing out ff,tis a hard life mate. There is always that chance of spreading mites to the springs,from ff so there is sound reasoning for us to take separate roles.

Thanks mate

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> if i come back as a frog, i want to live at stu's house!


Ha that's lovely cheers buddy,oh re pm got some mate:2thumb:

best

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

I might actually start a proper springtail colony; I'm going to be disassembling one of my tanks, and it has masses in it for a starter! :2thumb:

Usually I just move some moss or leaves from an established tank to a new one to introduce them, since they are irrelevant to me as feeders, but a proper colony may be worth having.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I might actually start a proper springtail colony; I'm going to be disassembling one of my tanks, and it has masses in it for a starter! :2thumb:
> 
> Usually I just move some moss or leaves from an established tank to a new one to introduce them, since they are irrelevant to me as feeders, but a proper colony may be worth having.


Ron i think its a singularly good idea,there is another thought to this,that crossed my mind.We will never really know i suppose what our phibs might be carrying,in the way of nasties,ie pathogens.I'll make this very clear, here as I'm aware of how things can get misread on a forum.I'm not saying you or anyone else has problems:2thumb: i'm saying it does no harm to be careful. It must be safer to start with a(hopefully) clean culture and seed vivs from that,we simply do not know what is out there. Buddy we have talked alot for along time now,i'm sure you know I'm not being critical,it just ain't my way. But i do think we could be alittle more careful...me included.
Events this year in the dart world have made me alot more aware and cautious of late,plus recently we had a sad tale here,of most of a collection being lost,a desparate shame,cause unknown I'm gutted for the lad.I don't want to ever read of this again.

I'm not scaremongering,Ron i just feel all of us should be careful. Yes i will still continue using my wild grub etc,in the belief that the benefits out way the negatives. 
Just for once i hope this post really comes over without anyone getting confused over what i am trying to get across
best

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Ron i think its a singularly good idea,there is another thought to this,that crossed my mind.We will never really know i suppose what our phibs might be carrying,in the way of nasties,ie pathogens.I'll make this very clear, here as I'm aware of how things can get misread on a forum.I'm not saying you or anyone else has problems:2thumb: i'm saying it does no harm to be careful. It must be safer to start with a(hopefully) clean culture and seed vivs from that,we simply do not know what is out there. Buddy we have talked alot for along time now,i'm sure you know I'm not being critical,it just ain't my way. But i do think we could be alittle more careful...me included.
> Events this year in the dart world have made me alot more aware and cautious of late,plus recently we had a sad tale here,of most of a collection being lost,a desparate shame,cause unknown I'm gutted for the lad.I don't want to ever read of this again.
> 
> I'm not scaremongering,Ron i just feel all of us should be careful. Yes i will still continue using my wild grub etc,in the belief that the benefits out way the negatives.
> Just for once i hope this post really comes over without anyone getting confused over what i am trying to get across
> best
> 
> Stu


No Stu, it's a good point. To my knowledge, I've never had a case of cross-infection between 'phib tanks (fish are something else entirely! :devil, but it never hurts to take sensible precautions.


----------



## Ron Magpie

ronnyjodes said:


> I have zero turkey basters


Serious case of baster-envy, here....


----------



## Wolfenrook

Ron Magpie said:


> No Stu, it's a good point. To my knowledge, I've never had a case of cross-infection between 'phib tanks (fish are something else entirely! :devil, but it never hurts to take sensible precautions.


A person more pendantic than me would say "How do you know you haven't". :lol2::Na_Na_Na_Na:

I'm not that pendantic though, so wouldn't dream of it. :diablo:

Ade


----------



## Ron Magpie

Wolfenrook said:


> A person more pendantic than me would say "How do you know you haven't". :lol2::Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> I'm not that pendantic though, so wouldn't dream of it. :diablo:
> 
> Ade


Um, could that be why I said 'to my knowledge'? *sigh*


----------



## soundstounite

Said requested pics of enchanting mystie kids,staring us down





































regards

Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

haha awesome pics Stu.


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> haha awesome pics Stu.


cheers J,if you follow their line of sight you can actually see some staring at shaz some at me,on opposite sides of the tub.
The funniest thing is some nearly fall over backwards when the other one too whom they are looking at speaks,the parents are no better we actually had 8 front feet on the glass tonight,a complete line up. First time we have seen all of them do it. Aero is actually hand feeding now,give me strength:lol2:

Do you remember me wafflin' on about talking to tads,there is something to be said for stockman's banter me thinks,we let them know the minute we walk in the room, and don't really stop for long. It doesn't take long for these frogs to work out that the owner of that voice won't harm them,after that its the slippery slope,all down hill. Its a shame in a way that they are wise to someone else,in there. I can only get pics of some things,and just talk about the other stuff, oh well i guess more folks believe this madness now than don't,i just about get enough pics out to confirm these crazy things are happening,
take care buddy,good luck with the new viv,time to get some done here soon
best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ff just to big up me lady:notworthy:,i think she can cope with feeding a couple of rainforests now,water honey tesco cheepo readybreak,bit of repashy superfly for the hell of it:gasp:. Oh and she still curses if she drops one....bless:flrt:
ff cupboard









avec le sliding doors

tiny cultures....NOT,recycled sweet jars
Hydei at near start









turks cheers Gaz:notworthy:









wingless mels









Hydei close to hatch








hydei hatch,no she really doesn't loose many remarkable really



























now where did that fly go

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

Yeah! You got your Gliders. What do you think of them? Speedy for sure!


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> Yeah! You got your Gliders. What do you think of them? Speedy for sure!


yeah took some finding Glenn,Gaz is one of our best young froggers,he sorted us out with a great start.Shaz has em under control though,very productive as you guys said,and great for the frogs, to hunt Just building the numbers now,i want to be properly covered . We also got some others in,but they didn't travel well,hopefully shaz will pull them around too.Yup we like the turks:2thumb:
best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

For our older and more delicate readers,i'm going to pop something up abit later,if I get chance,so alcohol and sitting down might be a good idea:Na_Na_Na_Na:
If not tonight then soon eh!!!

Stu


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> For our older and more delicate readers,i'm going to pop something up abit later,if I get chance,so alcohol and sitting down might be a good idea:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> If not tonight then soon eh!!!
> 
> Stu



ooow ive got my strongbow and im ready and all excited wonder what this is going to be :gasp:

Was looking at the start fo this thread earlier Stu just ordered a load of racking for my extended frogroom so was having a nose how you did it :notworthy:.
now hurry up before its to late and i cant even see the screen :whistling2:

Richie


----------



## s6t6nic6l

*Attenborough needed*

There should be a documentary made about this room.
i'm sure we would all love to see some video footage with a running commentary about da~dart~room with all the trills of the critters to excite the hearing senses.
a viv by viv film about each build and occupants for us to really appreciate what has gone onto this fascinating project.
everything from the plans, culturing food and behind the scenes running of the room would be very interesting to see. 
trust me, the longer the footage, the better the viewing pleasure would be.

i / we / them!! wait in anticipation.


----------



## soundstounite

Guys I'll reply properly in a minute.
At bloody last i think i have Shazzies azzies nailed down,i say think because we might just have 2 girls,not 2 boys,so here ya go,apparently they are the correct shade of blue and have the right number of spots or sommit,damned if i know ,but i know she's right:2thumb: :lol2:

thank :censor: that one is sorted(i hope)



















i thought the slight wave to Richie(now slurring gently) was kinda cool





































now to get abit of weight off them once they settle down
viv pics to follow

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> ooow ive got my strongbow and im ready and all excited wonder what this is going to be :gasp:
> 
> Was looking at the start fo this thread earlier Stu just ordered a load of racking for my extended frogroom so was having a nose how you did it :notworthy:.
> now hurry up before its to late and i cant even see the screen :whistling2:
> 
> Richie


If ya need any pointers shout dude:2thumb:,although i'm sure you won't,did you get those other connectors i mentioned? Richie have you built an extension already:gasp:
Sorry it took so long,we wanted to clean out the ff cupboard,and make sure all was on track,we nail it fairly regularly.
Ha Richie i got another little gizmo up my sleeve concocted it in my sleep,god knows how that happens it's purpose to remove mites from ff,just need to make some different sizes to suit different mites,but like all the best things,stupidly simple.I just can't believe i haven't thought of it before,pics and explanation to follow,when i get a mo
best

Stu


----------



## frogman955

Stu who cares about mites in fly cultures ?
It`s the threat of mites getting into springs that we worry about :2thumb:.
Get posting lol.


Mike


----------



## Tiigaan

Just posting so I can keep up with what's going on.

Awesomesauce work by the way.

Blessed Be /|\


----------



## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> There should be a documentary made about this room.
> i'm sure we would all love to see some video footage with a running commentary about da~dart~room with all the trills of the critters to excite the hearing senses.
> a viv by viv film about each build and occupants for us to really appreciate what has gone onto this fascinating project.
> everything from the plans, culturing food and behind the scenes running of the room would be very interesting to see.
> trust me, the longer the footage, the better the viewing pleasure would be.
> 
> i / we / them!! wait in anticipation.


Ha get me a tv company and i'll try not to:censor: too much:lol2: So much on the to do list Nic,time is not on my side at the moment.Maybe one day It'll happen,there is so much I'd like to do regarding this project.But for the mo the effort will go into more builds,now we are starting to get conversant with the method for breeding/raising/culturing,I'm desperate to get more tanks set,frogs will come when they do,but i do like the slow build and time for plants to settle in. 
Good to hear from ya mate hope your well?

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Stu who cares about mites in fly cultures ?
> It`s the threat of mites getting into springs that we worry about :2thumb:.
> Get posting lol.
> 
> 
> Mike


Yeah i know mate,your right they are not usually the cause of a crash ,but,they can be a ruddy pain,plus no doubt they affect production. Beyond all that if they ain't in my house they aren't getting in my springtails:2thumb:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Tiigaan said:


> Just posting so I can keep up with what's going on.
> 
> Awesomesauce work by the way.
> 
> Blessed Be /|\


:welcome:
Stu


----------



## phelsumaman

There's too few spots on all of them, shaz will be ashamed, best to give them to me chap - it will be better in the long run.

Seriously, AT BLOODY LAST, these should have been first on the list especially as I know how much shaz wanted these. 

Will see you soon buddy! 


Ben


----------



## soundstounite

This is how the azzie viv looks now,it was designed for auratus,but things have meant that Shaz has her new frogs here,I'm sure they won't mind too much.Its 60x60x40high,a weird shape but needs must or we wouldn't be able to see into the top 60cubes on this rack,as it is Shaz is vertically challanged so this is bad enough:blush:

FTS










leftside



















Rock's are the usual stu's homemade,the method's here you'll have to find it,when you do tell me where the hell i put it please i need to make some more:lol2:

regards

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

phelsumaman said:


> There's too few spots on all of them, shaz will be ashamed, best to give them to me chap - it will be better in the long run.
> 
> Seriously, AT BLOODY LAST, these should have been first on the list especially as I know how much shaz wanted these.
> 
> Will see you soon buddy!
> 
> 
> Ben


hey dude ya good?
Ben don't go pointing at me:lol2:,I'm not that picky,I've actually lost count of the times I've said what about these babe,anyway they are here i hope they settle and we haven't got 2 girls and all goes well,that's all that matters.
you take care bro it'll be good to catch up for a little while
best

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

Congrats on getting the Smurfs and your viv looks great!


----------



## brysaa2

Lovely smurfs Stu :2thumb: will hopefully have some of my own soon from Cornish to post on here. All the best.


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> Congrats on getting the Smurfs and your viv looks great!


Why thank you kind sir from Canuck land,you going to tell me what sex they are then Glenn,or should we not go there:bash::bash::lol2:
Honestly mate I'm just so glad she is finally close to having what she wanted,providing world war 3 doesn't break out again,hopefully i can put this one to bed now.

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

I see at least 1 pair! :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Make sure to tell Shaz, congrats for us! :2thumb:

Best,


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> If ya need any pointers shout dude:2thumb:,although i'm sure you won't,did you get those other connectors i mentioned? Richie have you built an extension already:gasp:
> Sorry it took so long,we wanted to clean out the ff cupboard,and make sure all was on track,we nail it fairly regularly.
> Ha Richie i got another little gizmo up my sleeve concocted it in my sleep,god knows how that happens it's purpose to remove mites from ff,just need to make some different sizes to suit different mites,but like all the best things,stupidly simple.I just can't believe i haven't thought of it before,pics and explanation to follow,when i get a mo
> best
> 
> Stu


Thanks Stu i will. No didnt get those connectors im fixing it to the wall as well so thought the others would be ok.
Havent built the extension yet had to sort out the new workshop first now im flat out making vivs also got a few shows coming up.
Will look forward to seeing the new gizmo :2thumb:

Anyway back on the subject Shaz loving the azzies its about time he found you some :lol2:

Richie


----------



## soundstounite

brysaa2 said:


> Lovely smurfs Stu :2thumb: will hopefully have some of my own soon from Cornish to post on here. All the best.


Blue frogs in the english riviera,kinda apt huh
Good luck mate,looks like j has done a great job with them.

Oh cheers on the words on our vivs somewhere,i saw but little time of late,I'm really looking forward to what you congur up for these

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> I see at least 1 pair! :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> Make sure to tell Shaz, congrats for us! :2thumb:
> 
> Best,


C'mon share the wisdom dude,who's who,:mf_dribble:

thanks bro,grats already passed on, say hey to Laura from us both,
Best
S&S


----------



## Ron Magpie

Hehe, I've got a confession, Stu and fellow Dartmafia members; I very nearly considered getting some leucs when I couldn't source reedfrogs for my new littleish viv- fortunately, it seems I can get some reeds in Camden, now. Phew! :grin1:


----------



## frogfreak

soundstounite said:


> C'mon share the wisdom dude,who's who,:mf_dribble:
> 
> thanks bro,grats already passed on, say hey to Laura from us both,
> Best
> S&S


Lets let em lose a couple of lbs first. :lol2:

Passed along guys. 

Cheers,


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Thanks Stu i will. No didnt get those connectors im fixing it to the wall as well so thought the others would be ok.
> Havent built the extension yet had to sort out the new workshop first now im flat out making vivs also got a few shows coming up.
> Will look forward to seeing the new gizmo :2thumb:
> 
> Anyway back on the subject Shaz loving the azzies its about time he found you some :lol2:
> 
> Richie


Yeah fix it well mate,we worked on the triangle principal strong as hell.
but you still pulled a workshop out of the bag,very cool Richie,nice one!!!

Gizmo I'll show soon mate,Stupidly simple,Stupidly cheep,i bet more than one person says,how the hell didn't i think of that:lol2:,I'll be one of them, the good stuff always happens when I'm alseep Rich,tis why i'm always cream crackered. It would be sort of nice to have a brain that worked in the day time too hey ho

cheers on her smurfs bro


bring it on

Stu


----------



## badboyboas

soundstounite said:


> This is how the azzie viv looks now,it was designed for auratus,but things have meant that Shaz has her new frogs here,I'm sure they won't mind too much.Its 60x60x40high,a weird shape but needs must or we wouldn't be able to see into the top 60cubes on this rack,as it is Shaz is vertically challanged so this is bad enough:blush:
> 
> FTS
> 
> image
> 
> leftside
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> Rock's are the usual stu's homemade,the method's here you'll have to find it,when you do tell me where the hell i put it please i need to make some more:lol2:
> 
> regards
> 
> Stu


that looks well good mate:2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> Lets let em lose a couple of lbs first. :lol2:
> 
> Passed along guys.
> 
> Cheers,


Ahh i missed that Glenn, apologies erm stones methinks:whistling2:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

BBB thanks man:2thumb:

Gizmo as promised
to remove maybe a majority of mites from a culture. FFproof mesh silicone onto sweet jar lid 
remove flies from culture make sure you have no media
tip flies into a clean jar that has some vit dust in
screw on lid/gizmo
swirl flies about so they get covered in dust,the mites don't stick well to the flies whist covered in dust
invert shake all the dust and mites out through the lid into a container,add cleaned flies to new starter culture
well i did say it was simple and i have been asking myself why the hell i haven't worked this out before,and why the idea came while i was asleep,but the good stuff normally does.

patent pending
mitts off:lol2:





















doh:bash::bash:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

We are working up two vivs,i hoped to pop some pics up but our interweb is being erm playfull:censor: so they'll follow once i get a mo.I'm going to try out a slightly new design for the top adding in another small vent over the doors of a slightly wider mesh,with the normal other stuff 0.4mm at the back,still 10cm combined of vent but a couple of cm at the front and a couple less at the back

Note to self plants in again for the winter.:bash:
Note to you orrible lot don't grow your own viv plants it will save you lots of pennies,you'll know they are safe from sprays etc,you'll know they haven't come into contact with other darts,but you won't have a bloody kitchen table for months of the year.If your other half isn't into the frogs as much as you,well you and the frogs will be out the door as above pics will follow,oh i'm trying some broms in tubs just to see if they fair better with a more humid atmosphere,there might not be enough airflow,who knows 

I'll also add we have a fabulous morphout of mysties so i'm ever more convinced on the use of vit A for dusting(evry couple of weeks,NOT more) and its effect on embryo tad development.

bring it on

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

A start on a couple of vivs all the usual methods apply but i'm going to cobble up all the stonework first and foam them in place later,abit of a fiddle but shouldn't be too hard to achieve.that's the reason why the glass at the back has silicone spread over it...extra adhesion,designs are based around height constraints of a 40 high viv,branches will be removable carrying broms as will most other depo sites,yup i know the first one is abit strange i'm curious if anyone can work out what its occupants will be and tie this to the design,it will surely take some real left field brain work at this stage to work out what the block is representing on the back right, so abit of fun thrown in for good measure


















the other one 

















more pics later

Stu


----------



## terryTHEfrog

Look forward to it, what do you use to paint the spray foam ??


----------



## soundstounite

terryTHEfrog said:


> Look forward to it, what do you use to paint the spray foam ??


same method as always really Terry,rockoflex as a first coat its a grounding product,then coloured epoxy resin coated with ecoearth/peat mix. Terry read all this malarky then go up top and read how to build a dart viv,there are many methods.... you might want to choose a different one to me,but do this before you do much more,nothing worse than spending money and not having all the info and something going wrong,then having to start over.There is great info here dig for it buddy

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

rocks with rockoflex









plants always,no one round for dinner for a while then :lol2:










oh and my lad's ex bedroom









Stu


----------



## fatlad69

soundstounite said:


> rocks with rockoflex
> image
> 
> plants always,no one round for dinner for a while then :lol2:
> 
> image
> 
> oh and my lad's ex bedroom
> image
> 
> Stu


That's a great use of a bedroom, can't wait for my kids to leave home!:lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

fatlad69 said:


> That's a great use of a bedroom, can't wait for my kids to leave home!:lol2:


the trouble is everything has to be transient......the bugger's come back Adam,i kid you not,no pun intended,But you'll note only one child gets mum and dad another spare bedroom as a proper frogroom.
Family planning begins with wannabe dartkeepers that are very patient,well unless one happens to be loaded that is,
you heard it here first folks:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Inclusion of depo sites,hopefully the real action will be visable to the vertically chalenged,As i don't want this to look like a photographers dustbin steps have been taken to hide said cans,but just make everything accessible from the right angle 


























naturally all gaps where a very small kid could get stuck are thought out
and sorted
said viewing angle 











and still no one has taken the bait:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Stu


----------



## frogman955

I did :lol2:.


Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> I did :lol2:.
> 
> 
> Mike


Yeah you did mate,and your pretty much on the money,i'll tell all in time. shhhh

Mike as well as being mad as a hatter,i'm actually putting alot of almost left field thoughts into this particular design,i have no idea whether or not it will all work out. Essentially what i've been trying to do with these slightly cryptic posts is just make folks think about a viv design and the effects of this, might have on the frog behaviour . 
Thanks for the interest mate,as i say nothing in this one might work as planned,there is a good bit of madness in it, but at least we'll all know hmm he tried that,that doesn't work:lol2:

Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Ahhh, a tombstone.

It's a late halloween viv. lol


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Ahhh, a tombstone.
> 
> It's a late halloween viv. lol


Man that is surreal,someone else equated a block of polystyrene with a tombstone? unfinished !:notworthy::notworthy:
Jees Ade i knew you were awake ,but stone the crows:gasp:
early halloween when started actually,although i'm not sharp enough to have thought about it:blush:.
ok tell me how the hell you got there? i'm still not sure whether it will ever look right,but i had to try

So here's the inspiration for a 50x50x40cmhigh tank
Bastimentos cemetery | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
and now the pondering continues as to how best to make the tomb into a refugium,nearly there but will it work.Dammed if i know :lol2:


Stu


----------



## fatlad69

Can't wait to see this finished. It would look great with pieces of black moss stuck to it.


----------



## Wolfenrook

Ok.

Well, pretty much from the off Stu you've told me that the pums you wanted were cemetary bastis, many many times you've said this.

The viv is obviously for pums, with all those film pots.

I kind of figured it would be cem bastis, as I know you, when you finally get something you've been after you go quiet, drop lots of hints etc...

I kept looking at the pic, and wondering what the heck was with the house bricks though, then I finally twigged, all it could be was you building a tombstone but you just hadn't put the finish on yet.

So not that awake, as for days I've been wondering what was with the polystyrene house bricks... lmao

Ade


----------



## frogman955

Looks like your little secret is out now Stu :2thumb:


Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Looks like your little secret is out now Stu :2thumb:
> 
> 
> Mike


Nah not really mate he doesn't know the half of it:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Yeah i do mess around Ade trying to make it all abit fun:2thumb: but you are bang on it is for cems after a complete summer of waiting due to the breeder being ill they suddenly came here almost completely out of the blue,pm in the morning frogs here evening,a breeding pr(unscheduled) and 2 females,after waiting so long i got the opportunity of getting both Shaz's dream frogs wrapped in almost a week had to be done.So they are tucked in a qt tub erm and without any water have started laying inside a week,my hope was that by removing depo sites they would wait a while,but hell no.
So i've cobbled up something i just might be able to move tads and frogs to viv at the same time..We got 2 clutches on the same day and have another egg stuck to the side. Bloody sods why couldn't they wait awhile
The male is awesome he is the noisiest tiny frog on the planet shaz loves em and I'm playing catchup:bash:

Thanks Adam its a tricky one,we'll see
Stu


----------



## earthtiger

soundstounite said:


> Inclusion of depo sites,hopefully the real action will be visable to the vertically chalenged,As i don't want this to look like a photographers dustbin steps have been taken to hide said cans,but just make everything accessible from the right angle
> image


nice hide, but I would make it removable, for easier control. => cut the bottom off, slit the length of the side open, clue it to the wood and clip a second tube in slit open one. So you can remove it easily, for control or to clean it etc.


----------



## soundstounite

earthtiger said:


> nice hide, but I would make it removable, for easier control. => cut the bottom off, slit the length of the side open, clue it to the wood and clip a second tube in slit open one. So you can remove it easily, for control or to clean it etc.


For a hide we use a black film can with a drawer in white,which is a cut in half film can,it works great as an egg laying site too: victory:.

But that is not what you are looking at,by depo site i mean a deposition site for tadpoles. As oophaga are eggfeeders,ie the tadpoles diet consists of infertile eggs laid by the female,there is no real reason to have it removable. this will be orientated as it is pictured and filled with water for a female to pop tadpoles in.

That is why all these film cans are largely going to be towards the front of the viv,Hopefully Shaz will be able to watch her little frogs carrying tadpoles to them and coming back to feed,all right up front and visable.
Sorry for the confusion 

regards

Stu


----------



## earthtiger

soundstounite said:


> For a hide we use a black film can with a drawer in white,which is a cut in half film can,it works great as an egg laying site too: victory:.
> 
> But that is not what you are looking at,by depo site i mean a deposition site for tadpoles. As oophaga are eggfeeders,ie the tadpoles diet consists of infertile eggs laid by the female,there is no real reason to have it removable. this will be orientated as it is pictured and filled with water for a female to pop tadpoles in.


I know. 

It is easier to remove the can with the tadpole / small froglet, short before he leaves the water than to catch it out of a huge terrarium.

This is what I am talking about:
http://img.webme.com/pic/f/froschraum/cimg8091.jpg


----------



## frogman955

earthtiger said:


> It is easier to remove the can with the tadpole / small froglet, short before he leaves the water than to catch it out of a huge terrarium.


NOT with Pums.

Mike


----------



## Wolfenrook

I have to agree with Mike here. Most folks take the approach that the longer you can leave the young frogs in with their parents the higher the chances of survival. Pulling them before they even fully leave water would be quite a bad idea.

Thumbnails sure, but not pums.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

earthtiger said:


> I know.
> 
> It is easier to remove the can with the tadpole / small froglet, short before he leaves the water than to catch it out of a huge terrarium.
> 
> This is what I am talking about:
> http://img.webme.com/pic/f/froschraum/cimg8091.jpg


Ha cool thanks for that,I've not actually seen that one before,tiger what's your name,I'm apt to shorten stuff i can't call you ET:2thumb:

Mate the replies from Ade and Mike say it all really,my intention is to rear these,if we get that far inviv with their parents,at least for a few months.Most folks seem to get the best results this way,so for our first pums kids i'm going to follow their lead.

Having said that I had a recent conversation with a big obligate breeder in the states, he does actually pull just ootw,but he has one hell of alot of experience to draw on,so for the moment we'll go with the inviv method. I love the idea of kids with parents anyway.
nice little imi how are you doing with them?

Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

It's the only way you will ever get to see sights like this Stu:-










I firmly believe that the longer you can keep them with their parents the better. Obviously sometimes you have no choice but to pull, eg. the adult male starts attacking the youngsters.

They're not even hard to catch. A moistened aquarium fish net works wonders for relatively stress free capture. I just chase them into it with a hand, then put my hand over the open end of the net. Job done. : victory:

Ade


----------



## frogman955

I don`t care who claims to be what but from what i`ve seen with my Pums pulling as soon as they`re ootw is nuts.
My lot have been spending as much as a week leaving the brom axils and then another period becoming brave enough to actually start moving about on the brom before spreading onto other plants.
Pulling early = very stressed froglet.
Thats like taking a new born baby and chucking it into another room away from it`s mother and being left to fend for itself.


Mike


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> It's the only way you will ever get to see sights like this Stu:-
> 
> image
> 
> I firmly believe that the longer you can keep them with their parents the better. Obviously sometimes you have no choice but to pull, eg. the adult male starts attacking the youngsters.
> 
> They're not even hard to catch. A moistened aquarium fish net works wonders for relatively stress free capture. I just chase them into it with a hand, then put my hand over the open end of the net. Job done. : victory:
> 
> Ade


yeah sure mate,and you'll know already how much we both want to see this,not only in obligates actually but the whole lot,cool pic Ade cheers for that,ourselves.

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

frogman955 said:


> I don`t care who claims to be what but from what i`ve seen with my Pums pulling as soon as they`re ootw is nuts.
> My lot have been spending as much as a week leaving the brom axils and then another period becoming brave enough to actually start moving about on the brom before spreading onto other plants.
> Pulling early = very stressed froglet.
> Thats like taking a new born baby and chucking it into another room away from it`s mother and being left to fend for itself.
> 
> 
> Mike


Hi Mike,

Stu and I have been chatting about this on and off over the last few months. This is not someone "claiming" to be someone he's not. It's Rich Frye's method. He is, without a doubt, the largest Pum breeder in North America, the world possibly!? I have been to his home and have seen his Pum breeding facility. Let's just say it's _large_ with a ton of grow out tanks. Very old growout tanks with tons of microfauna in them. It was an honour to be invited into his home and have him explain his methods of breeding success! 

I don't keep Pums, but why do you guys feel it's important to keep the froglets in tank with the adults? I do raise a lot of tank raised Tincs and seem to see a "connection" between the adults and froglets. I can't explain it, really...

Cheers,


----------



## Wolfenrook

Hiya Glenn. I've actually seen RichFrye debate the pulling early issue. As is so often the case, the debate was a hung one, with the usual outcome of there is no wrong way or right way, just preferred ways.

I prefer to leave them as long as possible, and so encourage others to do the same. I can't speak for others, only myself however. But for me the reasons I chose this are:-

This is what I was advised to do by more experienced keepers than my self, with proven success rates.

Like Mike, I have observed how long it can take froglets to garner the courage to leave the brom they were deposited in as tadpoles. I do believe that pulling them so soon is unneeded stress at a very vulnerable time of their lives.

I have seen with my own eyes how a froglet left with parents longer actually grew faster than it's siblings that were pulled a lot sooner.

I like to actually watch the interaction between parents and offspring, as in that photo I posted. This is a hobby for me, I'm not in it to farm frogs, so observing this kind of behaviour is important to me.

So these are my reasons, and may not be shared by everybody. If I have a good reason to pull sooner, I will, but I prefer not to.

Ade


----------



## frogman955

Hi Glenn
I know it was Rich Frye as i`ve read his posts.
Ade has as good as spoken for me on this subject.
But unlike him I have actually tried pulling froglets not long after leaving the water.
They died.
New clean viv with broms and leaf litter and well seeded with springs.
Nothing to stress them, except for taking them away from their parents.
There`s a pic here of the first one being moved and you can see it wasn`t fresh ootw http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/783750-just-stu-18.html


Mike


----------



## soundstounite

Ha i run off and you guys have a debate without me:2thumb:,which i can't really add any experience to other than I'm open to any ones ideas as it fascinates me how many different methods there are its all something more to learn about.
Talking to Rich,beyond all the feeders and well set up rearing tanks that have been running for ages,i wonder if due to his experience he is actually negating the stress factor by pulling before they get out of the water,absolutely judging it bang on ?

For me, on this one, the whole design is about Shaz"the vertically challenged one" seeing as much as possible of the breeding and hopefully the housebrick/tombstone providing a backup of feeders for all these little pums she's going to have kicking around.
The whole thing for me is a first,these will be our first breeding obligates,so who knows what will happen i don't!!!! But I'm thinking hard on it all,which is all i can do really,steal from everyone else's experiences and build on the bit i have learnt.plus throw in a slightly mad build for the hell of it.
I just wish i had abit more warning of them coming here and the bloody sods would just give it a rest and let me play catch up.I'm not yet sure whether the eggs are fertile a couple of days and i might know more. 

Ha tis funny we are debating moving a froglet,I'm crapping myself about moving a breeding group with tads to a viv,without upsetting the applecart,
Oh for a simple life

Oh and for anyone making rocks with epoxy ,well cold weather ain't great,take it from me,i WILL pull this out of the bag,but it is going to be a fight

bring it on

Stu


----------



## frogman955

Stu why don`t you sit back for a minute and think.
But first thing for you to do is just get those frogs settled in.
Get the running shoes off and get the flip flops back on.
I`m thinking that your going to lose those eggs by moving them, or by the time you`ve got the new viv ready you`ll be trying to move tads or froglets.


Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Stu why don`t you sit back for a minute and think.
> But first thing for you to do is just get those frogs settled in.
> Get the running shoes off and get the flip flops back on.
> I`m thinking that your going to lose those eggs by moving them, or by the time you`ve got the new viv ready you`ll be trying to move tads or froglets.
> 
> 
> Mike


Ha mate don't worry there is no rushing and no hasty moves. I promise you that.
ok i want this viv finished yesterday,but that doesn't mean any thing about frogs going in there.I'll let everything settle down first with the viv like i always do.
The eggs are fertile Mike well at least 3 are,but honestly although Shaz is thrilled to bits,I just wanted them to chill and take a break,i withheld any water in the hope of achieving this,but that failed dismally.
So hopefully they'll stop,now and if these tads get transported and fed then I'll be ready to pull the adults when the kids are old enough.Sort of reverse to the normal,pulling the kid . the kids will grow up in a tub,like the rest of our frogs.The adults move
But,these adults are not going to spend their lives in a tub.So i have to find a workaround. 
They will do a session of qt in tub and by the looks of it they will breed in there,but at some stage i want them to have the best i can give them. Which, for all its faults will be a viv i've spent yonks thinking on. There will be a risk to the kids if i don't get things right,but i can't have the adults in a tub for ever,it just won't happen. 
Mike there is only one place that I'll ever move fast and in haste with these frogs and that is when i think i have a sick frog,then my friend Usane Bolt will still be at the stating line whilst i lap him.
I have a laugh here,i mess around and paint myself as a nutcase,well fair goes that's true enough.But, everything is measured bro, everything is calculated,I'm the same guy that took all that time to even keep a frog don't for a second think I'm rushing mate,your just seeing me mulling over a situation that i hadn't planned for and tried to prevent from happening,but the bloody pums weren't listening and bred anyway.But i can't tell you guys everything that goes on in my brain i don't have time,you get a snapshot of that

Mike my priority has to be with the adults their wellfare and the rest of our frogs,if they settle and stay good and i' get my part right i might get the embryos through too. But as hard as it is to say if we do loose these kids these guys are hell bent on making more anyway. So I'll take that.
yup i will endevour to pull the whole lot through naturally,it kills me losing anything even a tad

best
Stu


----------



## frogman955

No worries Stu.
It just comes across like theres a bit of a hurry on and thats my concern.
If your moving the parents at any time move the kids too, in the event you do get kids.
I don`t like the idea of rearing them in a tub (the kids)
In fact I was reading somewhere today about it being a bad thing to do.
Tincs and Leucs etc grow faster than the pums so a rearing tub isn`t such a problem, but the Pums would be in there for ages and I don`t believe for one minute that it is good for them.

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> No worries Stu.
> It just comes across like theres a bit of a hurry on and thats my concern.
> If your moving the parents at any time move the kids too, in the event you do get kids.
> I don`t like the idea of rearing them in a tub (the kids)
> In fact I was reading somewhere today about it being a bad thing to do.
> Tincs and Leucs etc grow faster than the pums so a rearing tub isn`t such a problem, but the Pums would be in there for ages and I don`t believe for one minute that it is good for them.
> 
> Mike


Buddy I do realise you have my best interests at heart,i'm not good with words and this bloody machine i try ,but more than once Ade or Ron has helped me get my point over.
I don't know about the tubs and pum kids Mike,mind i don't know about bloody pums fullstop.I do know that i can keep pums in them easier than some tincs,i haven't a clue how the kids will do other than if it should pan out i won't have moved them so that stress factor will be negated. 
We'll see what happens mate,she still has to transport and feed them yet,so a hell of alongway to go


Stu


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## frogman955

You`ll know where this came from Stu once you`ve read it.
An interesting read I thought.


Mike


Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?
by *Philsuma* » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:56 pm 
just a theory here Rich...

since Oophaga pumilio are obligate egg-feeders and express a great deal of parental activity: transporting, feeding, raising, then it would seem logical that may indeed carry over after metamorphosis - well into the froglet stage of development.

Just as the pumilio tadpole fully recognizes the size, shape and locomotion of the parent female during feeding, maybe it carries over to the froglet. The froglet feels safe to feed and grow when there are other adult pumilio around and in close proximity to it. 

Take the froglet out of the parental vivarium and place it all by itself or even with other similar siblings and notice how much more it hides. It may even feed less and exhibit more stress when there are no adults around.


----------



## fatlad69

frogman955 said:


> You`ll know where this came from Stu once you`ve read it.
> An interesting read I thought.
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?
> [URL=http://www.dartden.com/styles/DartDen/imageset/icon_post_target.gif]image[/URL]by *Philsuma* » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:56 pm
> just a theory here Rich...
> 
> since Oophaga pumilio are obligate egg-feeders and express a great deal of parental activity: transporting, feeding, raising, then it would seem logical that may indeed carry over after metamorphosis - well into the froglet stage of development.
> 
> Just as the pumilio tadpole fully recognizes the size, shape and locomotion of the parent female during feeding, maybe it carries over to the froglet. The froglet feels safe to feed and grow when there are other adult pumilio around and in close proximity to it.
> 
> Take the froglet out of the parental vivarium and place it all by itself or even with other similar siblings and notice how much more it hides. It may even feed less and exhibit more stress when there are no adults around.


It makes spence. Is suppose pumilio are very are different to a lot of other amphibians in the fact that they do show parental care. I wonder if it is the same sort of care you find in mammals, the adults showing the young how to hunt ect. before they making it on there own. Just a thought.

Adam


----------



## Wolfenrook

Hmmmm, well if baby angelfish can learn how to look after eggs properly from their parents, and this is why folks have so much trouble breeding them now from years of eggs been pulled and raised manually by the breeder, who's to say that a frog can't exhibit a similar response? It took generations to mess up the angel fish, it wasn't instant, so we can just say "well, I've pulled early from the off and had no problems". We'll probably never know though, as few people pull early to my knowledge, which means that 1 breeder in a long chain pulling is unlikely to create a similar phenomena.

Pums do indeed show very real parental care though, and if nothing else I enjoy watching this.

Each to their own though.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Cheers for all the input guys, hell i want to see the parental care as much as anything,its all such a big part of keeping these frogs,yeah i like messing around with the kids separately too with the other frogs.but we are damn close now so seeing what happens when a tinc comes out in viv let alone these little pums.
Cheers Mike for the thread i'll dig it out later,its always fun to see those 2 discussing stuff,providing it stays sane.

Bloody frogs why can't they just wait a while and stop all the ruddy nookie :bash:

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Cheers for all the input guys, hell i want to see the parental care as much as anything,its all such a big part of keeping these frogs,yeah i like messing around with the kids separately too with the other frogs.but we are damn close now so seeing what happens when a tinc comes out in viv let alone these little pums.
> Cheers Mike for the thread i'll dig it out later,its always fun to see those 2 discussing stuff,providing it stays sane.
> 
> *Bloody frogs why can't they just wait a while and stop all the ruddy nookie :bash:*
> 
> Stu


 Bromide in the water. It's the only way.


----------



## frogfreak

Here's one for you, Stu. My female Alanis tinc was transporting tads yesterday. Two of them. That's a first for me! They were gone before I could get a shot though.


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> Here's one for you, Stu. My female Alanis tinc was transporting tads yesterday. Two of them. That's a first for me! They were gone before I could get a shot though.


Ron....:lol2:

Glenn female tincs don't transport,it's all a lie:Na_Na_Na_Na:

ok erm they do don't they i've seen it:blush: congrats mate is n't the best thing seeing mum setting of with the little ones while dad sits quietly with some paracetamol.

Damn cold damn epoxy is like painting with treacle...mutter mutter mutter:devil:
i guess i should look on the bright side :2thumb:at least it doesn't set quick so i can grab a few mins of warm up and hear mythical tales of female frogs carrying tads about and missed photo opportunities, plus get the low down on family planning for darts

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

soundstounite said:


> Ron....:lol2:
> 
> Glenn female tincs don't transport,it's all a lie:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> ok erm they do don't they i've seen it:blush: congrats mate is n't the best thing seeing mum setting of with the little ones while dad sits quietly with some paracetamol.


I def did a double take when I saw that! 1 male, 2 males, 3 males, wait a minute here!? Then who's transporting those tads! I waited until she came out of the water and sure enough, it was her.


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> I def did a double take when I saw that! 1 male, 2 males, 3 males, wait a minute here!? Then who's transporting those tads! I waited until she came out of the water and sure enough, it was her.


Ha we've continued this chat over 3 forums and 2 sets of PM's Glenn,life's too complicated bro.Give me a few days and I'll have a special pic for you if things work out.

folks some possible means of moving some pums or just another gizmo

holesaw bit of oak










add film cans










cem bastis

male fertilising eggs


















frogs




































belucky guys

Stu


----------



## fatlad69

Great idea. I love your frogs, fantastic markings.


----------



## FrogNick

great frog Stu I like basti with large spots.


----------



## soundstounite

Thanks lads,Shaz's frogs are proving difficult to photograph in the QT set up,plus i must get a macro lens to do these tinyfrogs some justice,one day huh. i'm just stoked to finally have her bastis here. Adam we'll see if tads get transported to the new gizmo and we'll play it by ear from there.All i really want is them to rest quit breeding for a few months and stay as good as they look now.The little male is by far the noisiest frog we have,great little character. 


Now It's back to fighting with a really taxing couple of builds,I've been having a real fight with them as the epoxy has been an utter nightmare to work with at colder temperatures,i noted this a while back.For anyone else using a similar background build method please learn from this.The epoxy goes very thick in the cold and takes way too long too dry,somehow one needs to work in a well ventilated area,close to room temperature.I don't get bothered much by the fumes,but they are something to best avoid,so normally all this goes on in our garage with the door open. But it just wouldn't be feasable to do a background over foam at temperatures around 5C,please note this!!

Again a little pointer with the holesaw,when using this tool be real careful,if you run off track the saw will grab and the drill will turn taking your hands with it,really brace the drill securely when using a holsaw and ware gloves.No room for being careless here,this will hurt you if you are not very very careful.
Best to clamp the wood in a work mate or such like and go gentle,paying particular attention to keeping the drill absolutely at the angle you want the hole to be. You might need to run a drill of the appropriate size right through the wood. This will act as a pilot hole to drill back,to complete the hole.

Again I'll repeat be seriously careful,this one will really bite if you get it wrong

regards

Stu


----------



## fatlad69

soundstounite said:


> Thanks lads,Shaz's frogs are proving difficult to photograph in the QT set up,plus i must get a macro lens to do these tinyfrogs some justice,one day huh. i'm just stoked to finally have her bastis here. Adam we'll see if tads get transported to the new gizmo and we'll play it by ear from there.All i really want is them to rest quit breeding for a few months and stay as good as they look now.The little male is by far the noisiest frog we have,great little character.
> 
> 
> Now It's back to fighting with a really taxing couple of builds,I've been having a real fight with them as the epoxy has been an utter nightmare to work with at colder temperatures,i noted this a while back.For anyone else using a similar background build method please learn from this.The epoxy goes very thick in the cold and takes way too long too dry,somehow one needs to work in a well ventilated area,close to room temperature.I don't get bothered much by the fumes,but they are something to best avoid,so normally all this goes on in our garage with the door open. But it just wouldn't be feasable to do a background over foam at temperatures around 5C,please note this!!
> 
> Again a little pointer with the holesaw,when using this tool be real careful,if you run off track the saw will grab and the drill will turn taking your hands with it,really brace the drill securely when using a holsaw and ware gloves.No room for being careless here,this will hurt you if you are not very very careful.
> Best to clamp the wood in a work mate or such like and go gentle,paying particular attention to keeping the drill absolutely at the angle you want the hole to be. You might need to run a drill of the appropriate size right through the wood. This will act as a pilot hole to drill back,to complete the hole.
> 
> Again I'll repeat be seriously careful,this one will really bite if you get it wrong
> 
> regards
> 
> Stu


I am having the same problem with the epoxy so have had to put my build on hold for a while. I am going to use a fan heater to try and warm the garage up to see if it helps. The other idea I had was to put stand the cup of epoxy in a bowl of warm water. I will let you know if it works.

Adam


----------



## soundstounite

fatlad69 said:


> I am having the same problem with the epoxy so have had to put my build on hold for a while. I am going to use a fan heater to try and warm the garage up to see if it helps. The other idea I had was to put stand the cup of epoxy in a bowl of warm water. I will let you know if it works.
> 
> Adam


Adam i'd still be concerned,unless the viv is brought in to cure as the drying time under cold conditions is so long,the problem is two fold one the consistency..too bloody thick,2 how much temp is actually effecting the chemical reaction,no doubt it goes off and cures properly once in the warm,but I'd hate for it to run down the viv carrying the eco/peat mix with it,that would be a real mare. It's a great idea and I've pondered it aswell maybe try a small bit?

Ruddy frustrating,but there to be beaten mate
ha 
bring it on

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

FYI There are some epoxy's out there that won't cure below 45F. What do the instructions say?


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> FYI There are some epoxy's out there that won't cure below 45F. What do the instructions say?


All in german Glenn,sad really, I should have an answer,but don't.Sometimes the obvious escapes me:blush:

Stu


----------



## earthtiger

soundstounite said:


> All in german Glenn,sad really, I should have an answer,


send me a scan and I can translate it for you resp. see if I find an answer to your question.


----------



## fatlad69

Mine is in German as well. I keep forgetting which is the hardener.:lol2:


----------



## frogfreak

Sie sprechen kein Deutsch? :Na_Na_Na_Na: :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

earthtiger said:


> send me a scan and I can translate it for you resp. see if I find an answer to your question.


Unfortunately I'm not able to mate.I'm guessing Adam is using the same stuff,it's the ENT epoxy,if that helps at all.You might be able to lift it from their site.
Are you in germany? simply put we know its safe for frogs,although i do know that the west's stuff is meant to be ok too,Lotte uses this.
Massive thanks for the offer of help all the same,that's really kind cheers.:notworthy:
What i do know is the cold effects the viscosity ,making the product much thicker. It also slows the onset of curing,but doesn't seem to have any negative impact on the curing reaction once it is warmed up.The epoxy has set rock hard as usual.
Well worth mentioning this i feel as someone might benefit from my fight with these vivs,thanks Glenn Adam and Earthtiger for the input 


Glenn your just being cruel,is it not enough that you can speak Canadian American and English:whistling2: :lol2: 

cheers guys

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> *Glenn your just being cruel,is it not enough that you can speak Canadian American and English:whistling2: *:lol2:
> 
> 
> Stu


:lol2::lol2::lol2:


----------



## frogfreak

lol Who said I could speak English? I still haven't cracked that code. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Wolfenrook

frogfreak said:


> lol Who said I could speak English? I still haven't cracked that code. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


Nor can a lot of English people, who apparently believe that they speak Engerlish and live in Engerland. :lol2:

Ade


----------



## Ron Magpie

Wolfenrook said:


> Nor can a lot of English people, who apparently believe that they speak Engerlish and live in Engerland. :lol2:
> 
> Ade


"And they all like vinderloo..."


----------



## Wolfenrook

Ron Magpie said:


> "And they all like vinderloo..."


I prefer a nice Dopiaza myself, or a pathia. :mf_dribble:

Ade


----------



## ronnyjodes

Wolfenrook said:


> Nor can a lot of English people, who apparently believe that they speak Engerlish and live in Engerland. :lol2:
> 
> Ade


"Oi oi saveloy!"



Wolfenrook said:


> I prefer a nice Dopiaza myself, or a pathia. :mf_dribble:


My current obsession is chicken tikka mughli. Awesome stuff.


----------



## soundstounite

Hmm, I'll leave you dwelling the finer points if the great british take away,and move to this.

One set of a family for Mike and Glenn 'cause i know they'll like these pics,now whether little fella will make it in viv,i don't know but given that he's survived his mum falling on top of him god knows how many times then in the viv he is staying.We have both auratus and mysties yet to come so we'll all see how it all pans out
Tuff little guy,with his mum and dad




































Back to the vivs we are building
some of the rocks in place prior to foam being added,despite not really being happy,the vote of confidence from shaz saying "shuddup they'll do, just build the bloody viv dude:bash::bash:" has meant progress continues,





































Hmm still not happy but hey ho.
So to that house brick:2thumb: in the cem basti viv.

The epitaph is a "doff of the cap" to what might just happen in a certain paridise in Bocas del Toro,lets hope they don't ruin it out there for some little red gems.
the top will be removable but the bottom probably not,i'm still pondering,
here's the bottom bit its hollowed out to form a cavity,which will be filled with a substrate that will be slow to break down,probably consisting of biggish twigs,in essence a vertical substrate,that the frogs can't get to.









here's the whole thing insitu









you'll note at the back i have created a cut out for a plant to sit in,you'll also note a cut running diagonally down the back to drain said planter,this drain also leads into the refugium








so springs and woods will have another acess point but ends will be blocked off to tiny frogs
This detail of the front of the tombstone again shows the tiniest of gaps for feeders to come and go through










The whole viv,prior to foam being added









As before i have no idea whether this is all just complete madness or might work really well, but being me I'm going to find out i guess.
Finally the two vivs all foamed,please remember 1 to spray the working suface with water prior to foam and after,if your foam cures via moisture that is. Oh and foam is easily worked with the fingers if you get the curing stage just right,damn sight easier than carving that's for sure.But ware gloves!!


















apologies for crap photos on these last two

seeya

Stu


----------



## frogman955

Baby tank looks awesome Stu.
Well done to you mate.


Mike


----------



## frogman955

Stu make sure you plug all holes as you`d get a shock at how small a hole a Pum froglet can get through.
Remember these things are tiny, some less than half the size of baby tank.
If Shaz is hurrying you along just remind her of what you`ve always tried to say in the past.
The frogs welfare comes first.
I`m thinking that your springs etc won`t use that gaps in the bricks so best to just seal it all up and create other types of hiding places like under stones etc.
Or just plain old leaf litter.

Mike


----------



## FrogNick

Stu, if you want the springtails to hide somewhere chip bark is a good choice as a substrate.


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Stu make sure you plug all holes as you`d get a shock at how small a hole a Pum froglet can get through.
> Remember these things are tiny, some less than half the size of baby tank.
> If Shaz is hurrying you along just remind her of what you`ve always tried to say in the past.
> The frogs welfare comes first.
> I`m thinking that your springs etc won`t use that gaps in the bricks so best to just seal it all up and create other types of hiding places like under stones etc.
> Or just plain old leaf litter.
> 
> Mike


cheers for the words about tiny tank mate and for the above,as before me old mate everything is being pondered and thought upon,i want the job done ,but no corners will be cut.
I've spent alot of time already pondering whether this will work frankly i don't know, actually on saying that nobody does really,unless they have done it,i'm all about trying something so longs it doesn't endanger frogs

The gap betwixt bricks is little more than a mm so no frogs will get through that, the others will be buried and frogproof. It might be a really good resource for feeders mate,we'll see in time,I'm pretty sure they will use it, but we'll find out one way or the other in time.I guess it will come close to doubling subs. area,so gotta be worth a shot.
But no it won't be at the expense of a froglet or two,my work is too well thought about to be taking risks in that department!! Sod that for a game of soldiers.

Thanks for the thoughts Mike,for the moment will disagree on this one,you may well be proved right,i might be,but that matters not I still appreciate the input,I know you've got our interests at heart...that mate DOES!! matter to me:2thumb:

best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> Stu, if you want the springtails to hide somewhere chip bark is a good choice as a substrate.


 Cheers Nicky,
We use it alot in all the kids tubs,I know it works ok.Another possible option might be charcoal,my thoughts are really centred on something edible to the feeders with time,this is why i'm pondering biggish sticks that will rot slow especially hardwoods,i already use them in the woodlice cultures to great effect,plus we see numerous woods out munching them at night,plus hopefully the springs might gain some nutrients from the breakdown process. Naturally this will mean replacement at some stage,which I'm trying to accommodate with the design,
cheers for the thoughts mate

Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Stay away from charcoal as a substrate in vivs Stu. Research has PROVEN that when used as a substrate pathogens multiply a LOT faster, meaning that infection spreads far more quickly and is more virulent. Bad idea bud, you're slipping a bit there on your research. 

As to a 1mm gap been too small for pums to get through, lol, if you say so bud. lol Again I think your research has slipped, go ask some seriously more experience pum breeders than us, pretty sure they will tell you stories of how they have had pums, especially baby ones, get through smaller gaps. That said, I am sure they can get out again too, will just make a nice feeding spot for them.

Ade


----------



## fatlad69

Wolfenrook said:


> Stay away from charcoal as a substrate in vivs Stu. Research has PROVEN that when used as a substrate pathogens multiply a LOT faster, meaning that infection spreads far more quickly and is more virulent. Bad idea bud, you're slipping a bit there on your research.
> 
> As to a 1mm gap been too small for pums to get through, lol, if you say so bud. lol Again I think your research has slipped, go ask some seriously more experience pum breeders than us, pretty sure they will tell you stories of how they have had pums, especially baby ones, get through smaller gaps. That said, I am sure they can get out again too, will just make a nice feeding spot for them.
> 
> Ade


I agree with Ade, you would be amazed at how small a gap they can get through. I was talking to a guy at Dart frog who was buying some silicone strip for his viv door. It was pretty much a normal ENT viv in his loft. He found 3 baby Jerberos dried up down stairs ( that's two flights of stair) and it was only by chance he saw the 4th escaping through the door gap. 

Having said all that if they can get in the gap then they can get out so shouldn't come to any harm. 

Adam


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Stay away from charcoal as a substrate in vivs Stu. Research has PROVEN that when used as a substrate pathogens multiply a LOT faster, meaning that infection spreads far more quickly and is more virulent. Bad idea bud, you're slipping a bit there on your research.
> 
> As to a 1mm gap been too small for pums to get through, lol, if you say so bud. lol Again I think your research has slipped, go ask some seriously more experience pum breeders than us, pretty sure they will tell you stories of how they have had pums, especially baby ones, get through smaller gaps. That said, I am sure they can get out again too, will just make a nice feeding spot for them.
> 
> Ade


Now the first bit doesn't bother me too much,Ade,I've considered charcoal ,but as before my thoughts are centred upon an edible substrate that will be slow to brake down,ie thick hardwood sticks.
The second bit i'm grateful for,because that is really something I must check out,as i really thought i had that covered,I know they are small(tiny) ,but 1mm is shocking. That will make the tub they are in as a rearing option totally redundant,if anything gets transported that is

Research slipping yeah I'll take that on the chin!!

cheers dude

Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Sorry bud, I know it was way too harsh, but figured you needed a bit of a cold shower to slow down your excitement. 

I think the thing here is, will they come to harm from getting into the 'tomb'? I suspect the answer will be that the only risk is eating too much, so a no. So it's not actually important.

Definitely examine your quarantine tub for gaps though! If you do get baby frogs you really don't want any gaps.

Queue somebody coming along to contradict me now.  lol


----------



## fatlad69

Wolfenrook said:


> Stay away from charcoal as a substrate in vivs Stu. Research has PROVEN that when used as a substrate pathogens multiply a LOT faster, meaning that infection spreads far more quickly and is more virulent. Bad idea bud, you're slipping a bit there on your research.
> 
> As to a 1mm gap been too small for pums to get through, lol, if you say so bud. lol Again I think your research has slipped, go ask some seriously more experience pum breeders than us, pretty sure they will tell you stories of how they have had pums, especially baby ones, get through smaller gaps. That said, I am sure they can get out again too, will just make a nice feeding spot for them.
> 
> Ade


As long as they can get out I don't see it as a problem. Mind you they may get fat with their own fast food restaurant at hand!:lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Sorry bud, I know it was way too harsh, but figured you needed a bit of a cold shower to slow down your excitement.
> 
> I think the thing here is, will they come to harm from getting into the 'tomb'? I suspect the answer will be that the only risk is eating too much, so a no. So it's not actually important.
> 
> Definitely examine your quarantine tub for gaps though! If you do get baby frogs you really don't want any gaps.
> 
> Queue somebody coming along to contradict me now.  lol


Ruddy heck mate don't squash my excitement,I'm so damn slow with this build,i feel like i'll be going backwards if i go slower,:Na_Na_Na_Na:
Mind, you guys are not getting any idea of how much time is being spent both on doing and thought, so damn easy to think there is a mad rush ,where there isn't one. Yeah i want these vivs finished,yesterday,but then ,one always does want to see how it all looks,planted up.
Nah i don't really think harsh Ade,none of the posts about this have been that,just good thought provoking comments . 
Adam thanks for the thoughts as well,i missed the jerberos bit last night(posting),but what is good about all this is the raised awareness for anyone reading this of the potential dangers of very tiny gaps to young frogs.
The jury is out on the refugium idea,i'm already being told it doesn't work in a dart viv,as the feeders won't colonise it...won't use all areas of the viv,I guess i'll have to explain this to our dwarf white woods,somehow I don't think anyone has told them about this yet,the little sods get everywhere.:whistling2: 

regards

Stu


----------



## fatlad69

I still think it is worth a try. Just because it has not worked for some doesn't mean it won't work for you.

Adam


----------



## frogfreak

fatlad69 said:


> I still think it is worth a try. Just because it has not worked for some doesn't mean it won't work for you.
> 
> Adam


Me too. You never know until you try it. I love it when people push the boundaries! How else would we progress?

Best of luck, Stu!


----------



## Wolfenrook

That's garbage about them not using the entire viv anyway. Heck I find springtails up in the broms even! As to dwarf woodlice, I tend to find the entire substrate ends up swarming with them eventually. Possibly why I've found pums so flippin easy to rear. lol

Ade


----------



## Ron Magpie

I'm a bit thrown by the pathogen/charcoal/springtail connection guys- any clarification on that? I still haven't got round to setting up a springtail culture- just introduce them on leaves/moss/bark etc to new tanks, but most people I've talked to lately seem to use charcoal.


----------



## fatlad69

Ron Magpie said:


> I'm a bit thrown by the pathogen/charcoal/springtail connection guys- any clarification on that? I still haven't got round to setting up a springtail culture- just introduce them on leaves/moss/bark etc to new tanks, but most people I've talked to lately seem to use charcoal.


I always used to use charcoal and flooded the container. I used to use a turkey baster (Wey Hey!) to harvest the springs.


----------



## soundstounite

fatlad69 said:


> I still think it is worth a try. Just because it has not worked for some doesn't mean it won't work for you.
> 
> Adam


Amen to that Adam,all our set ups are unique,the ever present variables as i call them.What might work for me might not for someone else,but try I will.If I fall flat on my face,no worries.
In a tiny glass box,we should be thinking of what we CAN do.
Still pondering the bonkers: 
The size of refugium might be the biggest problem,devoid of the pums getting stuck issues already illustrated 

Adam,nothing is known for me, I just have this burning desire to make a little noisy sod feel like he's at home,that's why there is a brick in his viv
what can i say? 
Every now and then one makes a connection with some little frog,for some untold reason it becomes very special very quick,he's one of those.
rock'n'roll
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

Stu, we all take risks, and we all do stuff based on our own experience and our own instincts, informed by stuff picked up. That's why I put my new (*miniscule!*) reedfrogs into a fully-planted viv where I can hardly monitor their presence, let alone their food intake: I decided that the chance of them feeding in a 'working ecosystem' was better than 'forcing' it by keeping them in a sterile tub, and trying to control their intake. This could seriously blow up in my face, though...


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> Me too. You never know until you try it. I love it when people push the boundaries! How else would we progress?
> 
> Best of luck, Stu!


Hmm,honestly Glenn, i don't know whether it's a boundary pusher,but i appreciate the words and some.
I have to go there and find out,i guess it doesn't feel much different to the other stuff we do really,what is cool for me is how much debate this has caused,
thanks man

"Ere, Glenn get this",he said sidetracking the brick debate slightly:lol2:

A little SB has just come ootw inviv,very cool,but the profound bit is this: each of the 2 females has been sat right beside the little one quietly watching it today,I would love to know what they are thinking,very gentle .They both keep going back and staring,i should have pics ,but I didn't really think about it,we just sat and pondered
everyone say AHHHHH

Stupidly lovely

bring it on huh 
Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Sorry Ron that's me causing confusion again. Using charcoal as a substrate for springs isn't the problem. The problem would be using a high ratio or an entire FROG substrate made out of charcoal, as this is what the researchers did and found it a big no no. I only found out about the research when googling about using water filtered through charcoal, a few people had the wrong end of the stick and were telling folks not to filter water with charcoal. They'd sort of heard there was research where charcoal was a contributor to the spread of disease, but hadn't read the actual research to discover the charcoal was been used as a substrate for the frogs in the tests.

Ade


----------



## Ron Magpie

Wolfenrook said:


> Sorry Ron that's me causing confusion again. Using charcoal as a substrate for springs isn't the problem. The problem would be using a high ratio or an entire FROG substrate made out of charcoal, as this is what the researchers did and found it a big no no. I only found out about the research when googling about using water filtered through charcoal, a few people had the wrong end of the stick and were telling folks not to filter water with charcoal. They'd sort of heard there was research where charcoal was a contributor to the spread of disease, but hadn't read the actual research to discover the charcoal was been used as a substrate for the frogs in the tests.
> 
> Ade


That's really interesting, I remember when (usually activated) charcoal was recommended as part of the soil mix to remove smells etc- even then I wondered (as a fishkeeper, although not a very committed one), what happens when the adsorbtion level reaches capacity- in a filter, you just renew it, in soil, eventually, it starts leaking the toxins back.

I'm guessing in those days, people didn't expect vivs to last for long, anyway.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Stu, we all take risks, and we all do stuff based on our own experience and our own instincts, informed by stuff picked up. That's why I put my new (*miniscule!*) reedfrogs into a fully-planted viv where I can hardly monitor their presence, let alone their food intake: I decided that the chance of them feeding in a 'working ecosystem' was better than 'forcing' it by keeping them in a sterile tub, and trying to control their intake. This could seriously blow up in my face, though...


Yeah bro absolutely..."Oh shaz I'll just turn our spare bedroom into a frogroom ya in"...."yes ok Stu do it bitch:mf_dribble:, but i want some blue bloody frogs and some spotty ones too." LMAO

That is the point though we don't know we read we learn we make mistakes.
Tell ya what Ron,sometimes all one has is one's guts(instincts) to rely on, and probably after throwing it out there for debate we(metaphorically speaking )will still make that same choice it might be wrong it may well be right,but really it is going to happen anyway. Always nice to be armed with a bit more of what somebody else thinks though isn't it.

Haha if i ask you about the reeds and how they are doing your going to say "I don't know buddy I haven't seen them for ages:2thumb:"...ha i bet they are doing just fine though!!

Ron I can't answer your question about the charcoal,other than to say i boil it,for a springtail culture,so which ever way one looks at it potential pathogens must be at greatest risk of coming in with the springtails,so somewhat limited.A viv is a totally different animal,with an absolute plethera of different organisms,so presumably that inertness is the problem ??
But I don't know is the simple answer:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Ron Magpie said:


> That's really interesting, I remember when (usually activated) charcoal was recommended as part of the soil mix to remove smells etc- even then I wondered (as a fishkeeper, although not a very committed one), what happens when the adsorbtion level reaches capacity- in a filter, you just renew it, in soil, eventually, it starts leaking the toxins back.
> 
> I'm guessing in those days, people didn't expect vivs to last for long, anyway.


It still is bud, hence my use of the words a 'a high ratio of charcoal'. The quantity folks use to mix in is usually quite small.

Basically though what it all comes down to is surface area and moisture retention. Charcoal has a VERY high surface area to volume ratio, giving pathogens more space to multiply in etc. Combined with how it tends to retain moisture, it makes for a perfect breeding ground for pathogens. Same way as sintered glass makes an excellent breeding site for beneficial organisms in filtration. :2thumb:

A little bit is unlikely to have much impact. Large quantities however could be a problem. That said, you have to introduce pathogens in the first place, BUT how many of us can be certain that our frogs are 100% pathogen free?

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> That's really interesting, I remember when (usually activated) charcoal was recommended as part of the soil mix to remove smells etc- even then I wondered (as a fishkeeper, although not a very committed one), what happens when the adsorbtion level reaches capacity- in a filter, you just renew it, in soil, eventually, it starts leaking the toxins back.
> 
> I'm guessing in those days, people didn't expect vivs to last for long, anyway.


Regarding water that's what i read too Ron,charcoal becoming saturated and leeching back toxins...memory fails ,but i think phosphates or ites,being linked to sls.
I've not come across the use of charcoal as a complete substrate for frogs,it was simply the lack of available(from the decay of carbon) food that lead me away from charcoal,very rapidly,nothing more 
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> It still is bud, hence my use of the words a 'a high ratio of charcoal'. The quantity folks use to mix in is usually quite small.
> 
> Basically though what it all comes down to is surface area and moisture retention. Charcoal has a VERY high surface area to volume ratio, giving pathogens more space to multiply in etc. Combined with how it tends to retain moisture, it makes for a perfect breeding ground for pathogens. Same way as sintered glass makes an excellent breeding site for beneficial organisms in filtration. :2thumb:
> 
> A little bit is unlikely to have much impact. Large quantities however could be a problem. That said, you have to introduce pathogens in the first place, BUT how many of us can be certain that our frogs are 100% pathogen free?
> 
> Ade


Cheers for all this Ade,
i don't think any of are frogs are pathogen free personally and moreso if they were they wouldn't be better for it.It's when the levels of pathogen get out of hand via stress ect that the problems start. If we cleaned away everything the frogs immune system would be shot,and beyond that we would be back to the sterile viv senario ,which none of us really believe in

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Yeah bro absolutely..."Oh shaz I'll just turn our spare bedroom into a frogroom ya in"...."yes ok Stu do it bitch:mf_dribble:, but i want some blue bloody frogs and some spotty ones too." LMAO
> 
> That is the point though we don't know we read we learn we make mistakes.
> Tell ya what Ron,sometimes all one has is one's guts(instincts) to rely on, and probably after throwing it out there for debate we(metaphorically speaking )will still make that same choice it might be wrong it may well be right,but really it is going to happen anyway. Always nice to be armed with a bit more of what somebody else thinks though isn't it.
> 
> *Haha if i ask you about the reeds and how they are doing your going to say "I don't know buddy I haven't seen them for ages:2thumb:"...ha i bet they are doing just fine though!!
> *
> Ron I can't answer your question about the charcoal,other than to say i boil it,for a springtail culture,so which ever way one looks at it potential pathogens must be at greatest risk of coming in with the springtails,so somewhat limited.A viv is a totally different animal,with an absolute plethera of different organisms,so presumably that inertness is the problem ??
> But I don't know is the simple answer:2thumb:
> 
> Stu


Well, I've seen them, but never more than three (*most!*) at a time- and at that size, I can't really tell them apart. So still, either 1) a brilliant idea or 2) one of my more stupid ones, ever- the jury is still out.


----------



## Wolfenrook

Hmmm the phosphate leeching is an interesting idea, some poor quality activated charcoal leeches these from the off. Gotta say though, I reckon most SLS is a simple dietry problem. As you all know, I use RO and HMA for my frogs, both my HMA and RO system have carbon stages. Only SLS I have ever had was in my vents that I pulled, but this I traced to increased temps in the system over when it was kept at a lower temperature. Touch wood my other frogs, including my tank reared vents, have never had any SLS problems. I would say there is more phosphate in crickets than you'll get leeched by most decent carbon filters. But then, I don't mean jug filters here, as they tend to use ion exchange resins, which leech sodium...

Ade


----------



## earthtiger

Hi Stu,



soundstounite said:


> Unfortunately I'm not able to mate.I'm guessing Adam is using the same stuff,it's the ENT epoxy,if that helps at all.You might be able to lift it from their site.
> Are you in germany?


yes, I am a native German speaker.




soundstounite said:


> simply put we know its safe for frogs,although i do know that the west's stuff is meant to be ok too,Lotte uses this.
> Massive thanks for the offer of help all the same,that's really kind cheers.:notworthy:
> What i do know is the cold effects the viscosity ,making the product much thicker. It also slows the onset of curing,but doesn't seem to have any negative impact on the curing reaction once it is warmed up.The epoxy has set rock hard as usual.


I haven't red the whole thread. => what is your question regarding the Epoxy from ENT and I can try to look it up.

bet regards,
Martin


----------



## soundstounite

earthtiger said:


> Hi Stu,
> 
> yes, I am a native German speaker.
> 
> 
> I haven't red the whole thread. => what is your question regarding the Epoxy from ENT and I can try to look it up.
> 
> bet regards,
> Martin


Hi Matin,

Martin first ,when you get a moment could we all see your collection of frogs,we have seen some,but we would love to see more.Could you also tell us abit more about yourself and your hobby with amphibians.We don't have many German folks here ,so there is probably much to learn from you and your methods, Thank you!!! 

Really I'd like to know the exact parameters regarding temperature and its optimum usage for the ENT epoxy resin.Having said that ,by learning the hard way i'm pretty sure I know what they are and that this product needs to be used around room temperature. 

I brought the 2 vivs into the house tonight and the product preformed exactly as i expected it to...working time about an hour,viscosity thinned with warmth,rapid setting at the end of working time.
All as it should be.
This stage of these builds is now complete,so now i have to finish up with the background side and then work up the glass tops and doors to complete the viv's ready for planting.

Martin thanks for the offer of help,its very kind,we haven't spoken much before and yet you still want to help a guy keeping frogs in a different country,that says alot to me:notworthy:
best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Hmmm the phosphate leeching is an interesting idea, some poor quality activated charcoal leeches these from the off. Gotta say though, I reckon most SLS is a simple dietry problem. As you all know, I use RO and HMA for my frogs, both my HMA and RO system have carbon stages. Only SLS I have ever had was in my vents that I pulled, but this I traced to increased temps in the system over when it was kept at a lower temperature. Touch wood my other frogs, including my tank reared vents, have never had any SLS problems. I would say there is more phosphate in crickets than you'll get leeched by most decent carbon filters. But then, I don't mean jug filters here, as they tend to use ion exchange resins, which leech sodium...
> 
> Ade


 The phopshates and carbon filters,comes from somewhere on dendroboard Ade,it is something that Ed posted,but i still can't give a link,i think it caused sls over multiple taxa,i believe 100%,removal of the carbon lead to reversal i believe.Sorry I can't be more specific.
By dietry you mean vit A deficiency,if so I concur,although more complicated than that as you've illustrated temps and a whole host of other factors can lead to sls ,one day hopefully we'll all know more and be rid of it

Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Hmmm, I'd hazard a guess that to get problems with high phosphate they were using carbon in a filter on a tadpole rearing setup, but never mind, I tend not to fix what isn't broken, and my RO and HMA approach has worked just fine for me.  My RO even has a carbon POST filter to improve the taste as it's a 5 stage drinking water system with a pressure tank. lol

Ade


----------



## fatlad69

soundstounite said:


> Hi Matin,
> 
> Martin first ,when you get a moment could we all see your collection of frogs,we have seen some,but we would love to see more.Could you also tell us abit more about yourself and your hobby with amphibians.We don't have many German folks here ,so there is probably much to learn from you and your methods, Thank you!!!
> 
> Really I'd like to know the exact parameters regarding temperature and its optimum usage for the ENT epoxy resin.Having said that ,by learning the hard way i'm pretty sure I know what they are and that this product needs to be used around room temperature.
> 
> I brought the 2 vivs into the house tonight and the product preformed exactly as i expected it to...working time about an hour,viscosity thinned with warmth,rapid setting at the end of working time.
> All as it should be.
> This stage of these builds is now complete,so now i have to finish up with the background side and then work up the glass tops and doors to complete the viv's ready for planting.
> 
> Martin thanks for the offer of help,its very kind,we haven't spoken much before and yet you still want to help a guy keeping frogs in a different country,that says alot to me:notworthy:
> best
> 
> Stu


Hi Stu,

I am having major problems with my latest batch of epoxy. I am using the correct mixture indoors at about 72c and it is taking 24hrs to go off. I have even tried adding extra hardener but still the same result. Infact by the time it has gone off it has slipped off all the peaks on the rockoflex. Any suggestions?

Adam


----------



## fatlad69

Well mixed the epoxy with a syringe. 5ml resin to 3ml hardener, stirred it for 3minutes and left it. 1 hour later there is no change to the mixture, looks like the epoxy resin is a duff bottle!


----------



## soundstounite

fatlad69 said:


> Well mixed the epoxy with a syringe. 5ml resin to 3ml hardener, stirred it for 3minutes and left it. 1 hour later there is no change to the mixture, looks like the epoxy resin is a duff bottle!


Hi Adam,
are you using the low or high viscosity,We always use the thinner stuff,low vis.
They are differentiated by top colour,i believe.The thinner stuff has white top for epoxy (Harz,Martin might confirm for us here) and red top for hardener(Hardter) I'm pretty sure the higher viscosity has a black top for at least one of them.
So first up it does sound like something is wrong Adam,but I went through the above so your as sure as can be you do have both resin and hardener.I'll also note that with the one we use the hardener is much thinner/less viscous than the actual resin.
I will also note that we always,mix just abit too much hardener,just a fraction but i always want to be sure it will set,damn what a ruddy mare your having kiddo,I feel for you.

Buddy i always pour out the resin then wait then abit more untill I'm damn sure i have it measured correct,i mark the pot to the mm,Once that's sorted,it takes a while to run back down in the pot so I do this slowly,then when I'm utterly sure i add my pigment, then grab a cup of char chill ,recheck the measurements add hardner,be sure I've got that right now mix the hell out of it,the pigment helps me be sure I've mixed properly,kind of a failsfe,but I'm seriously thorough with the mixing part.

Ok mate, all this is really just to help show you what is working for me, an effort at help. But,I think your right,it does sound like a duff batch.

A thought,try your exoeriment with the syringe with an upgraded dose of hardener, ie 5:4..... 5;5,see if that gets you where you want to be and have a chat with Marc,naturally,i know this stuff can be eratic,in that I've heard rumours of others failing,but did they get those measurements spot on? I see no deteriation in product held here for at least 6 months in our garage,but from now on I'll always mix up a little bit for a fake rock or such before i try a viv with it,actually i probably do this already,because of the way i work ,but i'll be sure in future.
As above we have had no issues before and these,recently, i'm sure were caused purely by working temperature,nothing more,everything went exactly as it should performance wise once the right temp was reached

What a pain in the butt!!!!!!!

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Hmmm, I'd hazard a guess that to get problems with high phosphate they were using carbon in a filter on a tadpole rearing setup, but never mind, I tend not to fix what isn't broken, and my RO and HMA approach has worked just fine for me.  My RO even has a carbon POST filter to improve the taste as it's a 5 stage drinking water system with a pressure tank. lol
> 
> Ade



yeah agreed ,if it ain't broke... I actually have carbon filters both on the rainwater and the external filter Ade,no real issues,other than a few mysties ,which has improved with vit A as we went on,so counter to what should be happening with a build up in a saturated carbon filter.
Mainly,i noted it as you like inputting and might want to check out what I'd read,

Stu


----------



## fatlad69

soundstounite said:


> Hi Adam,
> are you using the low or high viscosity,We always use the thinner stuff,low vis.
> They are differentiated by top colour,i believe.The thinner stuff has white top for epoxy (Harz,Martin might confirm for us here) and red top for hardener(Hardter) I'm pretty sure the higher viscosity has a black top for at least one of them.
> So first up it does sound like something is wrong Adam,but I went through the above so your as sure as can be you do have both resin and hardener.I'll also note that with the one we use the hardener is much thinner/less viscous than the actual resin.
> I will also note that we always,mix just abit too much hardener,just a fraction but i always want to be sure it will set,damn what a ruddy mare your having kiddo,I feel for you.
> 
> Buddy i always pour out the resin then wait then abit more untill I'm damn sure i have it measured correct,i mark the pot to the mm,Once that's sorted,it takes a while to run back down in the pot so I do this slowly,then when I'm utterly sure i add my pigment, then grab a cup of char chill ,recheck the measurements add hardner,be sure I've got that right now mix the hell out of it,the pigment helps me be sure I've mixed properly,kind of a failsfe,but I'm seriously thorough with the mixing part.
> 
> Ok mate, all this is really just to help show you what is working for me, an effort at help. But,I think your right,it does sound like a duff batch.
> 
> A thought,try your exoeriment with the syringe with an upgraded dose of hardener, ie 5:4..... 5;5,see if that gets you where you want to be and have a chat with Marc,naturally,i know this stuff can be eratic,in that I've heard rumours of others failing,but did they get those measurements spot on? I see no deteriation in product held here for at least 6 months in our garage,but from now on I'll always mix up a little bit for a fake rock or such before i try a viv with it,actually i probably do this already,because of the way i work ,but i'll be sure in future.
> As above we have had no issues before and these,recently, i'm sure were caused purely by working temperature,nothing more,everything went exactly as it should performance wise once the right temp was reached
> 
> What a pain in the butt!!!!!!!
> 
> Stu


Cheers Stu. I emailed Marc and he got back to me straight away. He thinks that it may be faulty and will replace it for me. Yeah I have the red and white tops, tried it with more hardener but still the same result. I have never had a problem before and like you always try and get the mixture exact. It does dry eventually but takes 24-48 hours. I just hope I can go over the Ecco earth that has already taken.


----------



## soundstounite

fatlad69 said:


> Cheers Stu. I emailed Marc and he got back to me straight away. He thinks that it may be faulty and will replace it for me. Yeah I have the red and white tops, tried it with more hardener but still the same result. I have never had a problem before and like you always try and get the mixture exact. It does dry eventually but takes 24-48 hours. I just hope I can go over the Ecco earth that has already taken.


Cool!
Adam,a thought, mix up a small quantity of the new epoxy,let it start to go off,you know what i mean it goes tacky/stringy just before it hardens dab this on the "bare areas"...peaks,you'll get real good coverage and it shouldn't run at all as it is so gelatinous at this stage.
Might just get you out of trouble,i think it is how would tackle this 'mare,if you have acceptable coverage on the rest that is.
If not maybe,I'll repeat maybe,rub all the surface over with some sand paper to get rid of anything slightly loose and provide a key for the new coat,I'm not sure on this one mate...thinking out of the box abit. This epoxy does seem to be ok with having a second coat applied,i think!! I did it recently on these 2 vivs I'm fighting with no problems that i can see yet!!!! It adhered well and no evidence of crazing or such nasties.

which ever way you go good luck buddy


Stu


----------



## fatlad69

Cheers Stu. Luckily it's only on a few pieces I have built outside of the viv, a waterfall and the lid for my pump housing. I will definitely do a test run before I start the background. I will post the build when it's finished, hopefully it will turn out ok as I was really pleased with these pieces.

Adam


----------



## soundstounite

fatlad69 said:


> Cheers Stu. Luckily it's only on a few pieces I have built outside of the viv, a waterfall and the lid for my pump housing. I will definitely do a test run before I start the background. I will post the build when it's finished, hopefully it will turn out ok as I was really pleased with these pieces.
> 
> Adam



What can i say Adam, other than looking forward to another cracking viv.
Adam tell me what its for,i'm abit brain dead at pres not remembering much apologies if you've already mentioned this,
good luck mate

Stu


----------



## fatlad69

I have a trio of tinc Patricia that need a bigger viv. The viv I have came with one of the tincs but I hate it, it has plastic and silk plants. I always intended to keep them in there for a few weeks and to build them a better viv. Unfortunately it took me a year or so to get around to it. The only thing that I like a bout the current viv is a badly built waterfall that the frogs love. So I decided to build one in the new viv. I built it free standing so if it doesn't work it can easily be removed. This was it before the rockoflex and the epoxy disaster.


----------



## soundstounite

2 vivs with rockoflex

















you'll note drainage showing light back left,i'm going to block light from behind the viv simply with black tape outside,this bit of wood is going to be filled with subs as a planter.

These are just before applying epoxy,time spent masking is never wasted it means i can work,or rather we can work very fast,Shaz is my backstop and applies the dry subs to the wet epoxy.I'm very lucky having my best mate of so long working alongside,we almost do these jobs without talking,now.

Ok she does tell me all the stuff I've done wrong :bash::2thumb:



















Stu


----------



## fatlad69

Hi Stu, quick question. How long does your epoxy take to go off?

Adam


----------



## soundstounite

fatlad69 said:


> Hi Stu, quick question. How long does your epoxy take to go off?
> 
> Adam


Sorry mate somehow i missed your post here,typing probably,cool work kiddo keep it coming.
Around an hour to start to go off after that it becomes pretty much unworkable(temp dependent) normally i walk away and next day it has set solid,i think i can just leave a mark with a fingernail after a couple of hours,but,I've usually rushed of to play kids or such,so difficult to be more exact
keep going mate,you'll win :2thumb:

Stu


----------



## terryTHEfrog

so is it quite easy to spread, applied with a brush ? guess it's like treacle to spread and work in small sections at a time ?


----------



## fatlad69

terryTHEfrog said:


> so is it quite easy to spread, applied with a brush ? guess it's like treacle to spread and work in small sections at a time ?


Depends on how warm the area you are using it in is, to cold and its un work able, too hot and you need to let it go off a bit so its not too liquid. generally its easy to work with and a lot less messy than silicone or glue. You have to throw the brush away afterwards as its nearly impossible to clean off. I use disposable plastic cups to mix it in and really cheap brushes and throw the lot after use.


----------



## soundstounite

For rockoflex which is water based,one small brush one larger brush and a plastic spatula,like they use for spreading icing on cakes to apply,the spatula I also use to mix the rocko to a thickish paste like pennut butter,don't add too much water at first!!!!!
For epoxy almost exactly the same as Adam,although i use old mushroom tubs to mix in,it makes mixing the product thoroughly very easy,especially using the pigment betwixt hardener and resin,when measuring out,measure absolutely spot on!!!!!!!,agreed cheep brushes,everything will end up in the bin afterwards.

Finally just a little note from here,we have 3 little pum tads transported as of the last couple of days,safely residing in the new bit of wood gizmo with the film cans.So the bugger wouldn't wait,but we are pretty chuffed,ha and they are pretty small,bless.

I'll try and get pics soon ish,we have also got the tops on these 2 vivs,we are trying out a slightly different top design,based on an idea from frognick I think,it was yonks ago we talked on this. I'm messing around with 2 types of mesh,a coarser one over the doors
regards

Stu


----------



## terryTHEfrog

cheers lads, I'll call Dartford to see when the epoxy will be back in !


----------



## fatlad69

Can't wait to see photos of the little froggies.


----------



## soundstounite

fatlad69 said:


> Can't wait to see photos of the little froggies.


Tel,an option might be west's,you'll have to search and find which,but I know Lotte uses one of their products,so it will be safe!!.

Adam,bro, one day old tad!! our first oophaga!! in a ruddy tub!! possible move!!slowly mate eh?:lol2: i've tried for tad pics though,proving tricky at pres.

The shocking bit for me is that they are oophaga,and they are in a tub,there is a profound sentiment to that,for me.
Maybe the folks that understand what I(some of us) try to do in a glass box will get the above. Sometimes it feels like a conjuring trick,pull one over on the frogs,make them think they a re at home.
Frustrating huh:mf_dribble:

How about this then,hmmm a red frog beach viv,was meant to be cem bastis,but things don' t always work out how one plans:whistling2:.
We've had the RFb for a good while now,some for half a year.Still tucked up in QT,while we evaluate.Long story ,but hell a viv for pums,built god!! a year ago,any pum that goes in here will probably put on an alarming amount of weight,bloody woodlice:lol2:
We are going to put a group of 6 in here,watch like hell, and see what happens. We have a backup tub a back up viv actually set up a couple of years back,sat waiting if we see something to react to. 
Ya know what after having pums here for 2 days,we sat and thought,they look better now than they did,we'll be alright,viv huh!!



























No tads ,but got this which is cool









another viv just quietly sat waiting:Na_Na_Na_Na:



















top of those 2 vivs,mesh 0.625 at front 0.4mm at back,well i think so anyway:blush:




























and one closing down on finished,bit of rock arranging still to do.









night all

Stu


----------



## FrogNick

Stu, you got any pics of your RFB?


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> Stu, you got any pics of your RFB?


A few,Nick, they'll follow,short of time mate. they range from the classic smaller spot red through to almost orange no spot,all have white/ pale tan feet,Purdy little things,maybe slightly smaller than the cem bastis.I really want some better pics though once in viv we might get some nicer shots. they are thriving though Nick,that's the most important bit for me,time will tell if we actually have any females.Calling wise 3 males 3 female,but pums ain't that straightforward ....

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

Loving the ferns in the beach viv, Stu! :2thumb:


----------



## Arcadiajohn

looking good stu!!!!:2thumb:

john


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Loving the ferns in the beach viv, Stu! :2thumb:


tis the quiet approach Ron:lol2: a couple of divisions from some cheep garden centre ferns say jees ,nearly 3 yrs ago,some spore from natives,raised up in propagators for eons,add water,light and patience and well as above:mf_dribble:
No intrinsic cost.Just no wish for an instant fix,but the fix cometh to the tortoises amongst us:whistling2:.
Softly soflty catchy Hmm apt so say froggy,vivy doesn't quite ring right:gasp:


Thanks mate.


Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> looking good stu!!!!:2thumb:
> 
> john


Thanks John,hoping your good:2thumb:


Oh mate look out for a very very gentle tentative helping out kind of venture into frog literature,how I find the time with what's going on unseen,tis a miracle ,my head hurts alot of late.:bash::bash::bash::bash:
take care bro

Stu


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## Arcadiajohn

Sounds exciting!!

Keep me up to date.

John




soundstounite said:


> Thanks John,hoping your good:2thumb:
> 
> 
> Oh mate look out for a very very gentle tentative helping out kind of venture into frog literature,how I find the time with what's going on unseen,tis a miracle ,my head hurts alot of late.:bash::bash::bash::bash:
> take care bro
> 
> Stu


----------



## Spikebrit

soundstounite said:


> Thanks John,hoping your good:2thumb:
> 
> 
> Oh mate look out for a very very gentle tentative helping out kind of venture into frog literature,how I find the time with what's going on unseen,tis a miracle ,my head hurts alot of late.:bash::bash::bash::bash:
> take care bro
> 
> Stu



We keep you on your toes lol, I think those 5 days were the quickest you've ever worked lol. 

Jay


----------



## soundstounite

Spikebrit said:


> We keep you on your toes lol, I think those 5 days were the quickest you've ever worked lol.
> 
> Jay


Nah Jay for a drummer it was positively pedestrian:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Cem basti tads are growing well so looks like mum is doing here bit. Oh and despite the fact that this little chap in the foreground is meant to be female and at one stage earlier this week for around 2 hours i thought all RFB were male,it turns out that at least one is 100% not male.even though she vocalised just a tiny noise when being jumped on by the male. A fantastic evening seeing all this as the chosen egg laying spot is at the very very front of the viv.I'm not really expecting fertile eggs but who knows 

Male calling female to laying site









Couple getting ready to lay male as above nearest camera









mum









Eggs









papa cem basti


















The oldest little leucs growing like weeds,




























Stu


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## Arcadiajohn

Hi Stu, 

Great feature in PRK this month. I'm looking forward to the next one!

By the way we call you "the dendroking" on our PR work for you which without trying to embarrass you is a title I'm really happy to bestow upon you!

Well done!

John


----------



## terryTHEfrog

soundstounite said:


> Nah Jay for a drummer it was positively pedestrian:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> Cem basti tads are growing well so looks like mum is doing here bit. Oh and despite the fact that this little chap in the foreground is meant to be female and at one stage earlier this week for around 2 hours i thought all RFB were male,it turns out that at least one is 100% not male.even though she vocalised just a tiny noise when being jumped on by the male. A fantastic evening seeing all this as the chosen egg laying spot is at the very very front of the viv.I'm not really expecting fertile eggs but who knows
> 
> Male calling female to laying site
> image
> 
> Couple getting ready to lay male as above nearest camera
> image
> 
> mum
> image
> 
> Eggs
> image
> 
> papa cem basti
> image
> 
> image
> 
> The oldest little leucs growing like weeds,
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> Stu


what type is the frogs in the first two pics ?? 'white foot' ??


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Hi Stu,
> 
> Great feature in PRK this month. I'm looking forward to the next one!
> 
> By the way we call you "the dendroking" on our PR work for you which without trying to embarrass you is a title I'm really happy to bestow upon you!
> 
> Well done!
> 
> John


Thanks John,i haven't seen it inprint yet,one of the joys of living in the sticks abit,:whistling2: All credit to Jay I just wanted to help out...tis darts they have brought us much joy, just trying to put abit back for all the help given

Ha, the dendroking,I'm not of course, I'm still learning like a good un,still a beginner really and you and Ron both knew i'd say something such didn't you:Na_Na_Na_Na: Tis true though John, only 1 year and 10months of keeping,but one hell of alot sorted in that short time span, slowly but surely getting it wired mate...
Oh John,I'll also turn this one around and say thanks for all the help and advice in your area of expertise and for the time you spend educating us all on the lighting front.

Merry chrimbo mate

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

terryTHEfrog said:


> what type is the frogs in the first two pics ?? 'white foot' ??


No Tel, these are a morph of Oophaga pumillio they are called Red frog beach, that occur on the island of bastimentos in a group of islands off Panama called the Bocas del toro. They are much smaller than the white foot which is also a member of the Oophaga genus ie the egg feeders.Mum feeds her kids infertile egg,it is their only food.White foot are a morph of Oophaga sylvatica ie one of 2 large oophaga the other being oophaga histrionica these guys are amongst the most stunning frogs on the planet,but they are all very difficult to get hold of...all large oophaga.
The reasons for this is that nearly all of them come from Columbia which has had its doors closed to export since the late 90's. Plus they are not only said to be difficult to breed but because they only produce few kids when breeding,they are almost unobtainable as genuine captive bred legitimate stock. Because these frogs are so stunningly beautiful and valuable they are oft desired for the wrong reasons.Ive wanted them myself from the off before i knew much at all and am working towards them. They aren't more special to me than my leucs or tincs ,They are the frogs that grabbed me when I first started drooling over pics of darts Something to work my butt off for:to gradually build a skill set so when I'm almost good enough,(I'll never really believe that until its under the belt),i'll keep them well . 

The good news is that there are some genuine legit stock starting to be imported both through UE from Ecuador and also through Columbia via Teresos(sp?) but they'll probably cost in the region of £500 per frog. Yes alot ,but its not all bad as some of these monies are going directly into conservation,sustaining habitat and also the locals a thing of beauty,sustainable and right. The future for darts are schemes such as these

regards

Stu


----------



## terryTHEfrog

they are very nice !! thanks stu. 
guessing that UE is understories enterprises. very good programme indeed and needed.


----------



## soundstounite

terryTHEfrog said:


> they are very nice !! thanks stu.
> guessing that UE is understories enterprises. very good programme indeed and needed.


Yes mate UE = understory enterprises.... the way forward .

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

The Tiger the guy that puts up with the Tank,ha whilst practising my photographic skills all quiet like with me said mate above i heard a resounding thump as the big lass landed (" what ya doing dad"),way to close to get in focus so you can take my word for it, damn i love these guys, so much fun from them



















merry chrimbo

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Poor pics,but worth showing some of our little cem basti tads,our first oophaga.which frankly aren't meant to be breeding,but we'll try and make the best of it

















a couple of pics of a male citronella showing that this might be the darkest blue,but it isn't black



















more to come

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Mystie kids,ha these guys are fantastic, I 've mentioned this before i think,but its such a joy seeing a little frog recognise you and come towards you when you talk to it,whist playing "depth of focus" over chrimbo these were my chosen subjects for a while.The problem was the exact opposite to normal instead of buggering off and hiding they kept coming to see me making themselves constantly too close,fantastic fun ,not terribly productive ,but damn good fun. I'm still more than a little perplexed by their behaviour, they just seem so bright for a tiny frog













































Stu


----------



## ronnyjodes

soundstounite said:


> Mystie kids,ha these guys are fantastic, I 've mentioned this before i think,but its such a joy seeing a little frog recognise you and come towards you when you talk to it,whist playing "depth of focus" over chrimbo these were my chosen subjects for a while.The problem was the exact opposite to normal instead of buggering off and hiding they kept coming to see me making themselves constantly too close,fantastic fun ,not terribly productive ,but damn good fun. I'm still more than a little perplexed by their behaviour, they just seem so bright for a tiny frog
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> Stu


The Mrs loves mysties so I've no excuse to pick up a pair  . What are they generally like to keep Stu? I only ask because ive been told stuff about certain frogs before buying to find they're the polar opposite . Are the bouts of boldness few and far between or are they brave little characters? I personally think they look awesome either way :2thumb:


----------



## fatlad69

ronnyjodes said:


> The Mrs loves mysties so I've no excuse to pick up a pair  . What are they generally like to keep Stu? I only ask because ive been told stuff about certain frogs before buying to find they're the polar opposite . Are the bouts of boldness few and far between or are they brave little characters? I personally think they look awesome either way :2thumb:


I know when Marc at Dartfrog started keeping them ( that's getting close to 10 years back) he said they were some of the boldest and easiest darts he had kept. The only reason I didn't buy any was there were rare back then and mega bucks. 

Definitely a species I want the keep in the future, stunning little frogs.

Stu do they climb much?


----------



## soundstounite

ronnyjodes said:


> The Mrs loves mysties so I've no excuse to pick up a pair  . What are they generally like to keep Stu? I only ask because ive been told stuff about certain frogs before buying to find they're the polar opposite . Are the bouts of boldness few and far between or are they brave little characters? I personally think they look awesome either way :2thumb:


Hmm they are buggers to sex Jon so go group not pr.This is tricky Jon all our mysties are bold,they don't really do hiding in anyway shape or form,if they are hidden its not that they are hiding from people it's because they are doing something or other.But Jaime had 3 of us and they were very shy until he changed the viv if i remember correctly.For me they are the boldest frogs we have a couple of weeks after they have come ootw where they shy away from us after that,they get progressively bolder.sure some individuals are bolder than others,but they(for us anyway are seriously not afraid of people.Jon little Aero(our very first mystie pretty much comes when called,she'll feed of Shaz's hand although i try to discourage her (shaz not the frog...ok both:bash.
I keep them in a 2'cube i genuinely can stick my head in there without the frogs reacting much at all,keep fast movements down and they simply are not worried.This might be because we spend alot of time with the frogs,but i suspect largely a species trait. Jon they are a total joy to keep,come and see mate your totally welcome,not after a sale ,but seeing them will way better get over what i'm trying to say.If you don't fall for a mystie kid or adult for that matter and like phibs then something is seriously wrong:Na_Na_Na_Na:
Jon those pics above were taken over a rearng tub the camera was inches from the frogs on a tripod with me working slow,they weren't stressed in the slightest,frogs that are worried take cover not walk up to the lens to se e what that mad sod's doing now!!

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

fatlad69 said:


> I know when Marc at Dartfrog started keeping them ( that's getting close to 10 years back) he said they were some of the boldest and easiest darts he had kept. The only reason I didn't buy any was there were rare back then and mega bucks.
> 
> Definitely a species I want the keep in the future, stunning little frogs.
> 
> Stu do they climb much?


I would agree pretty much Adam very easy to keep,as bold as any frog we keep,but possibly trickier to breed,maybe down to the time in the water. Prone to sls,more than our other frogs although having said that, I'm really scratching to think when we say the last case and we have recently had 2 monster hatches.They are prone to getting overweight as kids Adam,i've read it can kill them and my source is sound enough,coupled with what i see regarding feeding/weight gain that i believe this to be true. I think they are a prime candidate for UVB use and yup they climb real well,although they can be a bit clumsy, which beggers belief for a frog that lives on a bloody mountain!! 
I think there are clues here though to the rearing...i suspect they get more/are able to grab more nutrition per item of food than other frogs that delve into leaflitter for food:have the ability to make use of less food as its harder to come by on a mountain than in rainforest leaflitter. I also think that their cracking spiderman like walk might be energy saving(tis very different from most other darts,some large oopgaga move like this ,but not quite the same).So we give most kids a big lump of wood to climb on from a pretty early age,i think this is important as they are geared to climb and this must expend extra calories. Adam when we got Aero,she was being kept in a little tub,but she wasn't fit...she was fine and healthy ,but not fit,I look hard mate,she changed once she went in that big ol' viv,you could actually see her getting stronger , so i'd say its really good for these guys to get a good climbing frame in their viv,maybe more than that who knows. 

Ya know, I tried to build a copy of a their mountain in their viv,it might just have been worth all that effort,although I probably didn't realise how good it was for them...or the real reasons why until much later.

Sorry dude long answer to a simple question,but with good reason i guess

Stu


----------



## ronnyjodes

soundstounite said:


> Hmm they are buggers to sex Jon so go group not pr.This is tricky Jon all our mysties are bold,they don't really do hiding in anyway shape or form,if they are hidden its not that they are hiding from people it's because they are doing something or other.But Jaime had 3 of us and they were very shy until he changed the viv if i remember correctly.For me they are the boldest frogs we have a couple of weeks after they have come ootw where they shy away from us after that,they get progressively bolder.sure some individuals are bolder than others,but they(for us anyway are seriously not afraid of people.Jon little Aero(our very first mystie pretty much comes when called,she'll feed of Shaz's hand although i try to discourage her (shaz not the frog...ok both:bash.
> I keep them in a 2'cube i genuinely can stick my head in there without the frogs reacting much at all,keep fast movements down and they simply are not worried.This might be because we spend alot of time with the frogs,but i suspect largely a species trait. Jon they are a total joy to keep,come and see mate your totally welcome,not after a sale ,but seeing them will way better get over what i'm trying to say.If you don't fall for a mystie kid or adult for that matter and like phibs then something is seriously wrong:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> Jon those pics above were taken over a rearng tub the camera was inches from the frogs on a tripod with me working slow,they weren't stressed in the slightest,frogs that are worried take cover not walk up to the lens to se e what that mad sod's doing now!!
> 
> Stu



Cheers for the reply Stu :2thumb:. They're amazing looking frogs so its nice to know they're fun to keep too. What size group do you keep in a 2 foot cube? I may take you up on the offer of a visit fella, would love to see the dart room in the flesh and see what your mysties are like up close


----------



## fatlad69

ronnyjodes said:


> Cheers for the reply Stu :2thumb:. They're amazing looking frogs so its nice to know they're fun to keep too. What size group do you keep in a 2 foot cube? I may take you up on the offer of a visit fella, would love to see the dart room in the flesh and see what your mysties are like up close


Me too!


----------



## soundstounite

fatlad69 said:


> Me too!


 Apologies Adam,the offer goes to both of you ... goes without saying ! Sorry mate,just an oversight nowt more


Jon,we have a group of 4 1:3. i'm sure there could be more. Until one see's a viv with a 2' base it is very difficult to appreciate the depth,or for that matter convey it with pictures. If i had the space this is the viv I would use for all,I simply love this size to work into.

Stu


----------



## ginna

well i have just read through 210 pages of pure awesomeness !! i think its time to go to bed though :L haha i just want to say you my friend deserve a medal for these vivs they look well good!!


----------



## joe1981

Talk about a helpful thread. Will be working through this as i build my knowledge on the subject. Hopefully start a collection of my own i wonder if the wife would let me build another extension lol


----------



## Heart4Darts

joe1981 said:


> Talk about a helpful thread. Will be working through this as i build my knowledge on the subject. Hopefully start a collection of my own i wonder if the wife would let me build another extension lol


After spending 8-10 hours reading this whole thread, i can promise you now, you'll know everything there is to know regarding keeping darts.


----------



## soundstounite

Ginna and Joe

thanks guys
Ginna sorry to keep you up mate and for the slow reply,I'm beyond busy and my ineptitude with computers really doesn't help matters.
Joe good luck with your project,just get your lady involved mate,mine loves these frogs
best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Heart4Darts said:


> After spending 8-10 hours reading this whole thread, i can promise you now, you'll know everything there is to know regarding keeping darts.


ha very kind.:notworthy:
But no we have loads and loads still to learn seriously there is alot out there untapped as of yet.

kind words than ks all

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

cem basti kids
































































cem basti viv



























all those film cans and not one in sight but all visable so Shaz can see mum looking after her tads Plus an unknown with the tomb/refugium for good measure
first basti leaving the water and now he has left the can so the fun starts all over again









Another viv in the rack just quietly being washed through before planting












Stu


----------



## FrogNick

looks good Stu, I just had my second batch of cem basti come out but both with SLS last lot was fine and my BJ's that came out the water recently too were fine.


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> looks good Stu, I just had my second batch of cem basti come out but both with SLS last lot was fine and my BJ's that came out the water recently too were fine.


Nicky that's a damn shame, i guess it's worth asking,i know you've done this way longer than moi,but do you use vit A...might be worth a pop? we have seen sls wiped out completely now on the mysties. We dose every 2 weeks all stock even the kids and have no problems thus far. Actually I'm interested as to whether you have been using this Nick and still had sls,if you see this,I'd love to know.
We still have to rear them ,but 4 good legs is always a damn good start,sls is just so frustrating,wouldn't we all love to eradicate this once and for all
thanks kiddo

Stu


----------



## FrogNick

soundstounite said:


> Nicky that's a damn shame, i guess it's worth asking,i know you've done this way longer than moi,but do you use vit A...might be worth a pop? we have seen sls wiped out completely now on the mysties. We dose every 2 weeks all stock even the kids and have no problems thus far. Actually I'm interested as to whether you have been using this Nick and still had sls,if you see this,I'd love to know.
> We still have to rear them ,but 4 good legs is always a damn good start,sls is just so frustrating,wouldn't we all love to eradicate this once and for all
> thanks kiddo
> 
> Stu


I have been using Repashy Calcium mixed with NaturRose, i was talking to someone else and will be getting Repashy Vit A to add to my mix anyway, say that I got about 10 froglets from the 2 morphs and these are the first to come out with SLS, it might be related to the vits it might not be.

Nick


----------



## richie.b

Nice Stu few different colours :2thumb:

That creeper you got on the back wall is it quick growing like ficus sagitatta only reason i ask is theyre not good for pumilio vivs i used to use ficus pumila years ago and it grew to quick so had to keep cutting it back, well you would be amazed at the amount off eggs i lost that were layed on even the small leaves of pumila. 
Love the tombstome if you didnt have so many names already we could call you tombstone Stu 

Richie


----------



## Ron Magpie

richie.b said:


> Nice Stu few different colours :2thumb:
> 
> That creeper you got on the back wall is it quick growing like ficus sagitatta only reason i ask is theyre not good for pumilio vivs i used to use ficus pumila years ago and it grew to quick so had to keep cutting it back, well you would be amazed at the amount off eggs i lost that were layed on even the small leaves of pumila.
> *Love the tombstome if you didnt have so many names already we could call you tombstone Stu *
> 
> Richie


As we *all* know, he's 'I'm just a Beginer Stu'! :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> I have been using Repashy Calcium mixed with NaturRose, i was talking to someone else and will be getting Repashy Vit A to add to my mix anyway, say that I got about 10 froglets from the 2 morphs and these are the first to come out with SLS, it might be related to the vits it might not be.
> 
> Nick


 thanks Nicky,i just want the best for all. For sure if it was as simple as just vits ,i would think we have seen the back of this scourge years ago,but who knows. Goodluck with the next lot ,i hope the vit A might help. 

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Nice Stu few different colours :2thumb:
> 
> That creeper you got on the back wall is it quick growing like ficus sagitatta only reason i ask is theyre not good for pumilio vivs i used to use ficus pumila years ago and it grew to quick so had to keep cutting it back, well you would be amazed at the amount off eggs i lost that were layed on even the small leaves of pumila.
> Love the tombstome if you didnt have so many names already we could call you tombstone Stu
> 
> Richie


Richie, Shaz is so pleased as you can imagine,you know how long i've been trying to get these sorted for her,ok a waited abit as i'm a slow old sod and wanted to do right by em.Now she has little spotty kids as well: victory:Me i just wanted the buggers to wait a while,these kids are throwing a right spanner in the works. oh Richie the second lot of RFB are fertile and tads on the way to hatching,but i haven't a clue where the first lot are,or if they are still going,but at least these are all in viv with plenty of baby pum food if they are getting cared for somewhere deep in a brom that is. So something to maybe look forward to there. i can still see into the tomb at the moment Richie,from outside the viv,there's alot of life in there so it looks quite promising at this time,but very early yet to know how it will work long term.

Thanks for the kinds words of advice mate,really appreciated it ! The plant is sagitta,are you saying there is a good chance when trimming of removing leaves with eggs on,just so i'm sure on what your saying? I chose this because of the large leaves and your spot on it is already growing fast.We normally go for slower growing plants,although everything seems to romp once happy.I wanted a fairly dense canopy of biggish leaves at the back,fairly quick in this case,i hate having these breeding in a tub Sagitta seemed to fit the bill. I'm either going to have to be very careful when clipping or rethink this.

Ha tombstone Stu that's a new one:notworthy:I seem to attract names like dwarf white woodlice to one of my cultures:lol2:


thanks for the kind words and the advice mr pumeister

Ere Ron, just wait one day I'll have learnt something,i know i'm playing catch up with you kids, but I'm working on it. 

Stu


----------



## richie.b

I bet she is Stu and rightly so she is the Dendroqueen after all :2thumb:

Usually but not always if the female has layed again chances are shes lost the last lot of tads, pums in my experience dont lay again whilst she has tads to feed as shes already busy looking after those. Or if she does it usually means shes stopped feeding the other tads as theyre nearly ready to leave the water. This doesnt apply if you have a few females in the viv though.

Sagitatta is really quick growing in fact its proberbly got 2 new leaves since i wrote this :whistling2:. But seriously Stu its up to you if you want to leave it in there but i would go for something a bit slower growing. 

Richie


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> I bet she is Stu and rightly so she is the Dendroqueen after all :2thumb:
> 
> Usually but not always if the female has layed again chances are shes lost the last lot of tads, pums in my experience dont lay again whilst she has tads to feed as shes already busy looking after those. Or if she does it usually means shes stopped feeding the other tads as theyre nearly ready to leave the water. This doesnt apply if you have a few females in the viv though.
> 
> Sagitatta is really quick growing in fact its proberbly got 2 new leaves since i wrote this :whistling2:. But seriously Stu its up to you if you want to leave it in there but i would go for something a bit slower growing.
> 
> Richie



Ha i told her that she's the dendroqueen,she had this shocked look on her face Richie,"who's calling me that" , "oh Richie babe"...big smile:no1: thanks mate she's had a tough day:notworthy:

Probably 4 new leaves:Na_Na_Na_Na: 
Richie,i see exactly where your coming from and I'll say again how much i appreciate the advice. I know few who know pums like you. which ever way we go i have more knowledge to use now.

Mate this will make you smile Shaz now want's to have 2 yellow and 2 red in the next lot...hey ho:blush:

thanks mate


Stu


----------



## Terrarium Supplies

6 months on and I'm still getting through the pages (nearly there now)! I have my nightly dose of *'Da DART ROOM' *with a creme egg and a milky coffee. Excellent work Stu!


----------



## soundstounite

Terrarium Supplies said:


> 6 months on and I'm still getting through the pages (nearly there now)! I have my nightly dose of *'Da DART ROOM' *with a creme egg and a milky coffee. Excellent work Stu!


Thanks kiddo
Funny you should post James I've just been catching up on your great work.Man your motoring along mate,well done...excellent work back at you I really like your build:2thumb:. 

best 

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

3 out of 4 ootw the last will follow in a couple of days i guess

Some pics a crap one of a little guy taking his first steps,i watched him haul out the same frog after i opened the tub lid and finally the oldest: we haven't seen it feeding yet ,but so far so good




























The second clutch of RFB's have vanished I'm almost certain transported, but it is so difficult to see into the broms that i know not where.But they were there in the morning wriggling around and gone when I got back from work. So l'm upbeat about this. I doubt well see much until a tiny head pokes from a brom or nothing happens,what will be will be. The RFB seem to be doing great although some are very shy,i think because of the dominance of the male,little rogue, rather than being warey of us. We have seen most of them today,which is why I've mentioned it they look fabulous no signs of stress so far. We might leave alone for a while and possibly split later if kids morph out.

So far our pum exploits are about as far away from convention as one could get,mainly due to factors outside our control, so we'll go with it and see what happens. We have pums breeding in a ruddy tub which we really don't believe is a good place to rear in and a compelling need to get the parents into a viv.A group of 6 together in a viv because after months of keeping in a QT tub we couldn't be sure whether the last 3 frogs that hadn't called were boys or girls. So all we could do was bang them in a viv and see what the hell happened. We now know we have 4 calling males and 2 fertile females hmm and maybe some growing kids.
See this is what happens when you plan stuff really carefully:bash:,bloody chaos....mind good chaos. It will probably all go pear shaped in the next few days.......hey ho
ha bring it on


Stu


----------



## davidwilliams

Nice stu, very nice! :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

davidwilliams said:


> Nice stu, very nice! :2thumb:


Cheers kiddo rocking and rollin' ......ya both good mate?

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

I don't think I ever posted this pic, a while back we did a massive leaf hunt.We are very lucky to have some very kind abour culturey:blush: type mates
I've put my mitt on this so you can get an idea of scale how's this for an oak leaf a normal oak leaf is on top to further add to scale recognition








they are very thick , in viv lifespan seems really good ,once they dry after boling they tend to sit up abit,being not so easily flattened by the frogs. Only drawback is the sheer scale of them.Utterly fantastic for kids though

Stu


----------



## davidwilliams

Yes thanks mate, we both good! Hope shaz is cool to, and thanks for tip on the g.o wood lice they going now! Trying to get my pums going mate, few eggs of my Bahia grandes twice but mould over but it was her first time, But since, nothing! calling slowed to, thought she might of had a tad some where but looked around a little and nothing. Like the colours of the cemi's tho : victory:


soundstounite said:


> Cheers kiddo rocking and rollin' ......ya both good mate?
> 
> Stu


----------



## soundstounite

davidwilliams said:


> Yes thanks mate, we both good! Hope shaz is cool to, and thanks for tip on the g.o wood lice they going now! Trying to get my pums going mate, few eggs of my Bahia grandes twice but mould over but it was her first time, But since, nothing! calling slowed to, thought she might of had a tad some where but looked around a little and nothing. Like the colours of the cemi's tho : victory:


Davey,if there is one person you should speak to about pums here,that would be Richie B. Me, I'd say don't worry,let them rest awhile. As the weather warms this might help get them going. But I'm no pumillio expert.I just think down time for our frogs,from breeding, is so important.They come back alittle bit stronger from a rest.As you'll note below I'm seeing similar,but i think it might just be the time of year.I don't know this mate,maybe they can sense what's going on outside,so are waiting awhile.

My cem bast male is quiet now too,actually I'm quite pleased I want them to rest until they go into a viv. The RFB might be feeding tads might not but again they are pretty quiet. Now i know the sex of all the rfb,i'm happy enough,I'd much rather be rearing froglets in the spring and summer. Tis the feeding options that help so much for me,naturally i mean wild stuff. 

Richie if you read this any thoughts you have, I would love to hear,as it will further my knowledge as well as Dave's 
Shaz is much better this week than last mate:2thumb: cheers for asking. Oh and to save time fantastic to here how well you are doing with the Atachis,they are so cool aren't they. I'd love to know when you hear one call,i suspect it will be a while yet

best

Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Because nobody else on here keeps pums eh Stu? I'm not saying RichieB doesn't know his pums, but there are plenty of other folks keeping and breeding pums in the UK....


----------



## frogman955

davidwilliams said:


> Trying to get my pums going mate, few eggs of my Bahia grandes twice but mould over but it was her first time, But since, nothing! calling slowed to, thought she might of had a tad some where but looked around a little and nothing. Like the colours of the cemi's tho : victory:


 
Pums will breed when they are in the mood.
You won`t make them breed.
On the other hand you get some Pums that once they start you can`t stop them.
You problem is most likely the male and not the female.
Once she has laid the eggs the MALE looks after them.
If they are going mouldy then it`s because he`s not doing his job.
Most Pums the tads are so small it`s not worth looking for them as all your doing is stressing the hell out of the frogs by raking around.
Leave them alone and wait for a surprise to appear.
Now wasn`t that simple to answer ?

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Because nobody else on here keeps pums eh Stu? I'm not saying RichieB doesn't know his pums, but there are plenty of other folks keeping and breeding pums in the UK....


No not at all Ade, what prey tell are you trying to twist this into? 
All I have ever wanted is to help folks with the tiny bit I know.I have no personal vendetta against anyone!! There was no slander in my post to David,i just want to help me mate out.


Ade, Richie B has always helped me,he keeps a huge collection of pums,you yourself told me he is the most knowledge pum breeder you know,why wouldn't i recommend him to give advice where i can't. He is at present the most skilled pum breeder that posts on this forum. 

I know others with staggering knowledge that blinds me,but sadly they won't post here. The reason I'm sad is because we all lose out

Please do not try and twist my thread that i have worked for hours at to try and give a tiny bit back to this hobby,in my own little way, into anything other than what it is meant to be.
That is a celebration of darts,not knocking other keepers,that was categorically not my intention

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Pums will breed when they are in the mood.
> You won`t make them breed.
> On the other hand you get some Pums that once they start you can`t stop them.
> You problem is most likely the male and not the female.
> Once she has laid the eggs the MALE looks after them.
> If they are going mouldy then it`s because he`s not doing his job.
> Most Pums the tads are so small it`s not worth looking for them as all your doing is stressing the hell out of the frogs by raking around.
> Leave them alone and wait for a surprise to appear.
> Now wasn`t that simple to answer ?
> 
> Mike


Nah not for me,not yet anyway

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> No not at all Ade, what prey tell are you trying to twist this into?
> All I have ever wanted is to help folks with the tiny bit I know.I have no personal vendetta against anyone!! There was no slander in my post to David,i just want to help me mate out.
> 
> 
> Ade, Richie B has always helped me,he keeps a huge collection of pums,you yourself told me he is the most knowledge pum breeder you know,why wouldn't i recommend him to give advice where i can't. He is at present the most skilled pum breeder that posts on this forum.
> 
> I know others with staggering knowledge that blinds me,but sadly they won't post here. The reason I'm sad is because we all lose out
> 
> Please do not try and twist my thread that i have worked for hours at to try and give a tiny bit back to this hobby,in my own little way, into anything other than what it is meant to be.
> That is a celebration of darts,not knocking other keepers,that was categorically not my intention
> 
> Stu


Every now and then, threads get a bit out of hand- well done you, Stu, for sticking to your original purpose- no slagging of anyone, but Stu's thread is here purely to share his experiences- we can debate stuff elsewhere.


----------



## richie.b

davidwilliams said:


> Yes thanks mate, we both good! Hope shaz is cool to, and thanks for tip on the g.o wood lice they going now! Trying to get my pums going mate, few eggs of my Bahia grandes twice but mould over but it was her first time, But since, nothing! calling slowed to, thought she might of had a tad some where but looked around a little and nothing. Like the colours of the cemi's tho : victory:


David firstly congrats on having Bahia grande not one of the most common pums even if they are a christobal.
Ive got 2 pairs of these and have had them awhile and to be honest ive just got my first lot of tadpoles off them. They did spawn a few times but as yours nothing happened with the eggs. Back in October i put all my pumilios into a dry period for a rest as most of them had producd so many young for me i always give them a dry period. I started misting a few weeks ago and already ive got eggs and tadpoles in with quite a few pairs of my pums including my bahia grande. If i were you i would give them a dry period now for a month and see what happens.
Obviously this is only from my experience others may have a different idea, some might have read a good book so could tell you more :whistling2:



soundstounite said:


> No not at all Ade, what prey tell are you trying to twist this into?
> All I have ever wanted is to help folks with the tiny bit I know.I have no personal vendetta against anyone!! There was no slander in my post to David,i just want to help me mate out.
> 
> 
> Ade, Richie B has always helped me,he keeps a huge collection of pums,you yourself told me he is the most knowledge pum breeder you know,why wouldn't i recommend him to give advice where i can't. He is at present the most skilled pum breeder that posts on this forum.
> 
> I know others with staggering knowledge that blinds me,but sadly they won't post here. The reason I'm sad is because we all lose out
> 
> Please do not try and twist my thread that i have worked for hours at to try and give a tiny bit back to this hobby,in my own little way, into anything other than what it is meant to be.
> That is a celebration of darts,not knocking other keepers,that was categorically not my intention
> 
> Stu


Thank you Stu for your kind words, and good on you for finally standing up for yourself. Im not going to say anymore as this is an excellent thread and wouldnt want to spoil it.

Ade if youve got problems with people mentioning my name for advice i suggest you pm me or start a new thread. 
Thats all im saying about it on this thread

Richie


----------



## Wolfenrook

Wolfenrook said:


> Because nobody else on here keeps pums eh Stu?* I'm not saying RichieB doesn't know his pums*, but there are plenty of other folks keeping and breeding pums in the UK....


Given that folks seem to have misread, or read more into my post than was there, here it is again to reread and clarify. I've made an important point bold, given as this bit was missed too.

If you don't like me posting objections like this publicly, sorry but that's your problem. I personally don't sneak around behind people's backs. It's also not an isolated objection, I get rather fed up of seeing people raise ANYBODY up on a pedestal as the only decent sort of information on a topic, even if that person is me.

There are lots of people who can give advice on lots of different topics here, not just a few.

Again, if you don't like me saying this on your thread Stu, do feel free to complain to the moderators.


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Given that folks seem to have misread, or read more into my post than was there, here it is again to reread and clarify. I've made an important point bold, given as this bit was missed too.
> 
> If you don't like me posting objections like this publicly, sorry but that's your problem. I personally don't sneak around behind people's backs. It's also not an isolated objection, I get rather fed up of seeing people raise ANYBODY up on a pedestal as the only decent sort of information on a topic, even if that person is me.
> 
> There are lots of people who can give advice on lots of different topics here, not just a few.
> 
> Again, if you don't like me saying this on your thread Stu, do feel free to complain to the moderators.


The bit in bold type was not missed Ade, the first line was needless the post was needless I would much rather you did what Mike did and gave your knowledge to David as well as Richie's and actually any other pum breeder,that feels they can help. It's not about putting folks on a pedastol or encouraging only one guy to put forth his wisdom,the thought never crossed my mind. But i will always say oh have a chat with so and so about a particular subject,if i think the guy can help more than me, because there are guys with a flare for a certain subject. You can object ,but why i have no conception

Ade what i'm trying to get over here is we are talking about this cobblers not debating the finer points of dart (pum in this case) husbandry. Why because i mention some one's name,that is ridiculous mate it IS utterly needless.

Now get back to topic and throw some wisdom at David of your experiences with pums or say something silly and make some folks smile. 

I want this to be a happy place where folks might learn something about dart frogs where any one can help further the knowledge and anyone can contribute. Without any forms of nonsense!! Sure there might be disagreements in debate over every thing from QT to vets to methods passionate ones at that,but at the end of the day we should all be friends and be able to laugh about stuff. We number to few to be segmented and we all have too much to learn to be doing this bollox.

NUFF SAID

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

ok just to be sure to every bloody pum breeder here ,some questions: 
Do you all implement a dry season/s? 
How long is it for? 
Do you find it effective at stopping breeding more with some morphs of pum. Could there be a correlation with different morph habitats/weather conditions in the wild

Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

I tried a dry period, to the point where my viv plants only just hung on, I even reduced food. It had zero effect on stopping breeding with my Cristobals, and I mean zero effect. They even bred when we were moving house and they didn't get misted for a week and the viv was wrapped in bubble wrap....

The only guaranteed way I can think of to stop pums from breeding is to not keep a male with your females. Keeping their young in with them longer can slow them down I have found, but it certainly doesn't stop them, and even that isn't guaranteed.

I think the problem comes from the thinking that all pumilio are the same, they're not. They come from all sorts of different environments, so what works for one isn't guaranteed to work for another, even withing a morph you are going to get different experiences, there is no right way and no wrong way, with the exception of the obviously wrong. :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> I tried a dry period, to the point where my viv plants only just hung on, I even reduced food. It had zero effect on stopping breeding with my Cristobals, and I mean zero effect. They even bred when we were moving house and they didn't get misted for a week and the viv was wrapped in bubble wrap....
> 
> The only guaranteed way I can think of to stop pums from breeding is to not keep a male with your females. Keeping their young in with them longer can slow them down I have found, but it certainly doesn't stop them, and even that isn't guaranteed.
> 
> I think the problem comes from the thinking that all pumilio are the same, they're not. They come from all sorts of different environments, so what works for one isn't guaranteed to work for another, even withing a morph you are going to get different experiences, there is no right way and no wrong way, with the exception of the obviously wrong. :lol2:


 First up thankyou Ade.
Your breeding other pums as well aren't you? any differences to note? the bastis (cem) might just have stopped a while,It's way too early to know as the kids have only just morphed. But I've already noted that the male has stopped calling. when he came here is was the noisiest frog calling incessantly. This might be nothing at all but i moved the tub to a slightly cooler place plus without light overhead, At this stage this means absolutely nothing,but it might just be worth a mention.
yeah sure they are such a diverse species existing in such diverse habitats that was why i quizzed for detail on whether folks with different morphs might be seeing correlations.Any more thought/input please guys, 
cheers

Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Yeah, I'm breeding bribri and Punta Clara. I THOUGHT I spotted a baby in the black jeans viv a few weeks ago, but have reached the conclusion I was seeing things. lol

The main difference I've noticed is that bribri are a lot more rough and tumble. The females will wrestle ANYTHING, including the male and each other. lol This just seems to be the norm for them, and didn't seem to particularly even bother the first lot of young that Mike had from me. lol They're also bigger when they morph out, will take larger food including when first morphed (they were taking mels pretty much out of water...) and are just as hard to stop breeding (could be though that's because I have 2 females to 1 male).

The Punta Clara, well they're not that sensible in chosing egg sites. Their first lot they laid right by the vent under the lights.... They finally got it right recently though, and I finally have at least one froglet. Mine seem to be quite private frogs though compared to my bribri and cristobals. The male and 2nd female though are shy anyway, whilst the 1st female is quite bold. That's the thing, even within the same morph in the same viv I have 2 frogs that behave very differently...

My males never stop calling though, even when there are already eggs or tadpoles, even my cristobal male who only has one female with him. My black jeans male calls most of the time too. My bribri and punta clara males have a choice of females, so unsurprisingly they call pretty much constantly too. Doesn't really fit with the thoughts that the males only call when there's a point to it, but heh. lol

Ade


----------



## frogman955

I was having a discussion with Ade just the other day on this subject.
Probably a good example for me to use is my Caucheros which are breeding none stop even after cutting back on the misting.
Same goes for my others.
They are all misted the same as everything is on the one timer.
I`m getting eggs from everything and now my Cristobals look like getting in on the game too.
If I cut back on the misting any more the frogs will think they`re in the middle of a drought.
Case in point is my Salt Creeks.
I was having to drain the bottom of their viv every night.
Now it`s once a week if that and they are still going strong.
So as has been said already by Ade and myself to David.
They are all different and don`t always follow the rules.

Mike


----------



## Wolfenrook

Maybe somebody forgot to show/tell them the rules?


----------



## frogman955

I tried :lol2:.
But they`re either thick or they`re taking the piss.


Mike


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> ok just to be sure to every bloody pum breeder here ,some questions:
> Do you all implement a dry season/s?
> How long is it for?
> Do you find it effective at stopping breeding more with some morphs of pum. Could there be a correlation with different morph habitats/weather conditions in the wild
> 
> Stu



When i say i dry them out i mean i dry them for a few months not a week or 2 i dont have any water in the broms or cannisters and just a bit in the front gulley for the frogs to bath and the occasional light hand mist. No water to raise tadpoles will stop them breeding or at least stop them raising tads. I dont do this to get them breeding again i do it to stop them breeding and to give my frogs a break without having much of a choice. I also do it through the winter as most of the time my water buts are frozen so cant get water for the misting system. I have got a waterbut in the heated greenhouse now so thats why i started misting them again earlier this time. Like i said earlier this is what i do everyone does things different but ive always managed to stop my pumilios this way and then get them started easily when i start misting again

Richie


----------



## frogman955

That might be okay in a dedicated frog room but my frogs are in the livingroom so have central heating to contend with.
Drying them out like you do isn`t an option for me or i`ll end up looking at beef jerky instead of frogs.

Mike


----------



## Ron Magpie

frogman955 said:


> That might be okay in a dedicated frog room but my frogs are in the livingroom so have central heating to contend with.
> Drying them out like you do isn`t an option for me or i`ll end up looking at beef jerky instead of frogs.
> 
> Mike


*Frog* jerky- it's the latest thing in Dalston, dude!


----------



## richie.b

frogman955 said:


> That might be okay in a dedicated frog room but my frogs are in the livingroom so have central heating to contend with.
> Drying them out like you do isn`t an option for me or i`ll end up looking at beef jerky instead of frogs.
> 
> Mike



My frogroom has radiators and is actually warmer than the house, but yes it is easier in a controlled envirorment i suppose.
But then this is about giving David an idea of perhaps how he can get his pair of bahia grande breeding thats why i suggested drying them as that might work and hes nothing to lose by trying it

Richie


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> My frogroom has radiators and is actually warmer than the house, but yes it is easier in a controlled envirorment i suppose.
> But then this is about giving David an idea of perhaps how he can get his pair of bahia grande breeding thats why i suggested drying them as that might work and hes nothing to lose by trying it
> 
> Richie


Interesting guys cheers
Richie,this dry season lark I think is extremely difficult to convey just how dry it is,if I'm reading you right,naturally I haven't got there with pums the ones in QT did nothing until being put in a viv.The others came breeding and have only just stopped rearing.So I can't offer much other than doing this in an effort to stop other frogs. 
It is scary for the first time.Mike your right frog jerky is the worry.My plants looked terrible Gaz went through this in great detail over the mysties i guess the same applies.If there is one thing on a personal note that i think is VERY important that he stressed to me and that is these frogs must have a water source to rehydrate with as the vivs are that dry. If anyone is trying this,just make sure they can get wet somewhere and this water source is always kept topped up. 

Good stuff here for Davey to pick through thanks all

Stu

Stu


----------



## Terrarium Supplies

Well guys I made it, 6 months on (give or take a few weeks/days).... I'm all up to speed with 'Da Dart Room'. At least when I view recent updates I won't be left out in the cold and have some idea on what you peeps are reviling about.

Stu, credit where credit is due. Hats off to you mate and may you continue with your epic brood! Inspired, intrigued and somewhat overwhelmed to say the least.

James


----------



## soundstounite

Terrarium Supplies said:


> Well guys I made it, 6 months on (give or take a few weeks/days).... I'm all up to speed with 'Da Dart Room'. At least when I view recent updates I won't be left out in the cold and have some idea on what you peeps are reviling about.
> 
> Stu, credit where credit is due. Hats off to you mate and may you continue with your epic brood! Inspired, intrigued and somewhat overwhelmed to say the least.
> 
> James


Ha James cheers dude. Very kind. I'll say this though thank god I am so damn slow at all this,ha and typing,:bash:
If I moved at a quarter of the rate of knots you are at the moment,god knows where we would be now in terms of page number,beggers belief really.

It's a cool little journey to share i guess,a manifestation of a little kids dream,slightly different to what that kid envisaged 'cause i got older and knew little of darts. But the awe and wonder is still there,i suppose that is somehow infectious,it draws folks in. Tis humbling mate the above words.

James if i could throw one thing at you with what you are doing, it would be plan for little ones. I think that having no real conception that these frogs would breed like they do and that Shaz and I would keep the tads alive would rear almost all of the kids(losses are still minute) was a big underestimation on my part, when designing our room plans.
Granted i know little of the species your a custodian of but i suspect this oversight is applicable to anyone really devoting themselves to phib. breeding. 

thanks kiddo

Stu


----------



## Terrarium Supplies

haha, (page numbers) feel sorry already for the peeps who have yet to stumble this way! The best part about it Stu is that one has to read the entire thread. When I first hit on this, I did a bit of number jumping but like any good novel.... a story has a beginning, middle and an end. I soon reverted back to good old page drilling and found my way stumbling around your dart room. God I feel like this is an extension of my collection (wishing :mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble.

The little ones come every year mate, I just kept a low profile!! Only in recent times have I come onto the public domain... took me two decades to join a forum and takes things to the next level. Hence why I am a complete newb @ natural builds. Having so my phibs during peak periods... always gone down the kitchen roll :bash: method until you dart guys showed me the light.


----------



## Ron Magpie

Terrarium Supplies said:


> haha, (page numbers) feel sorry already for the peeps who have yet to stumble this way! The best part about it Stu is that one has to read the entire thread. When I first hit on this, I did a bit of number jumping but like any good novel.... a story has a beginning, middle and an end. I soon reverted back to good old page drilling and found my way stumbling around your dart room. God I feel like this is an extension of my collection (wishing :mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble.
> 
> The little ones come every year mate, I just kept a low profile!! Only in recent times have I come onto the public domain... took me two decades to join a forum and takes things to the next level. *Hence why I am a complete newb @ natural builds. Having so my phibs during peak periods... always gone down the kitchen roll :bash: method until you dart guys showed me the light.*


Which is why I keep going on (Ad Nauseum!) about what a useful forum this is for sharing info and learning from each other. I can't even count the number of useful things I have learned and put into practice since I joined. Speaking of which, TS (and sorry, Stu, only a mini-hijack, I promise!) I note you listed Atelopus species in your sig? How about a thread on their care and maintenance- I seem to recall they need cool temperatures and fast-flowing water, but some detail would be fascinating? Just asking...


----------



## soundstounite

Terrarium Supplies said:


> haha, (page numbers) feel sorry already for the peeps who have yet to stumble this way! The best part about it Stu is that one has to read the entire thread. When I first hit on this, I did a bit of number jumping but like any good novel.... a story has a beginning, middle and an end. I soon reverted back to good old page drilling and found my way stumbling around your dart room. God I feel like this is an extension of my collection (wishing :mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble.
> 
> The little ones come every year mate, I just kept a low profile!! Only in recent times have I come onto the public domain... took me two decades to join a forum and takes things to the next level. Hence why I am a complete newb @ natural builds. Having so my phibs during peak periods... always gone down the kitchen roll :bash: method until you dart guys showed me the light.


 Kitchen roll:gasp: what's that used for,sorry James how could i not. 

James i suspected there was more going on with you: alot of your knowledge of meds/treatment often only comes with time as hopefully things don't go wrong too often So proper personal/hands on experience takes time to build up,bloody dark horses. But as you say the joy of webland is within crossovers of knowledge and international shared knowledge. One can't apply what one has never heard of or is isolated from.

Hmm the story well i guess we are about a 1/4 in:blush: When i first started using this damn machine i came across a monstrous build by a guy called energy A huge by any scale tank,it was wonderful trundling through it,maybe he sort of inspired this although this is very humble by comparison.Really i just wanted it all in one place...ups and downs.

Finally i can't believe Ron would only ask for some details about the Atelopus I'm almost appalled (Ron i'm joking mate your hijack was very welcome:2thumb: you just beat me to asking the same thing). I would love to hear anything about these wonderful toads erm IN GREAT DETAIL:whip: please. i'm not going to try and spell the purple one ,the a's and r's will have me sat here all day but I've adored them for a long long time. Very interested in how you are getting around egg retention /prolonged amplexus,I have got that right haven't I,it was along time ago i read about them
As if your not doing enough already mate:whistling2:
thanks again

Stu


----------



## Terrarium Supplies

Nothing wrong with a wee bit of Lotus Thirst Pocket, quality stuff is that - only the best for my brood!! :2thumb:

Don't know about dark hourses' mate lol, always been around just never publically. One likes to sneak around and not be seen. Met a few guys on here for collections and pickups but that's about it. Like I said, took me 20 years to get into the online community. One of the main reason being that I work online so like to stray away as often as poss!! 'All worries and woes go away when I'm in phib mode'

If your only a 1/4 in then god help us!! :lol2: I guess and like you say, inspiration comes from seeing such builds. Especially when documented step by step. It gives so much back long term.

Atelopus limosus, moist lowland forests dweller from Panama and a f##ker! I managed 8 months until boom!! complete wipe out that hit me for six as these where very pricey at the time 'guttered'. Sig Atelopus coming from 'you know who' so touch wood. Other than that, I cannot shed anymore light.... I will try and try again, persistence pays and I'm not one to shy away from a challenge.


----------



## soundstounite

Terrarium Supplies said:


> Nothing wrong with a wee bit of Lotus Thirst Pocket, quality stuff is that - only the best for my brood!! :2thumb:
> 
> Don't know about dark hourses' mate lol, always been around just never publically. One likes to sneak around and not be seen. Met a few guys on here for collections and pickups but that's about it. Like I said, took me 20 years to get into the online community. One of the main reason being that I work online so like to stray away as often as poss!! 'All worries and woes go away when I'm in phib mode'
> 
> If your only a 1/4 in then god help us!! :lol2: I guess and like you say, inspiration comes from seeing such builds. Especially when documented step by step. It gives so much back long term.
> 
> Atelopus limosus, moist lowland forests dweller from Panama and a f##ker! I managed 8 months until boom!! complete wipe out that hit me for six as these where very pricey at the time 'guttered'. Sig Atelopus coming from 'you know who' so touch wood. Other than that, I cannot shed anymore light.... I will try and try again, persistence pays and I'm not one to shy away from a challenge.


Yeah phib mode is therapy James that's for sure. 

Ha ha "god help us " is correct,but really what I don't want this to be is a flash in the pan type of thing,i watched folks come onto darts and go again just whilst we were pondering all this. 

Gut wrenching abut the Atelopus J.,,but persistence is good,we all need a dash of this to get things right, I know they are very tricky ,but damn i'd love to see you win with these,I've long dwelt on barbotini i guess almost unique colourwise,very special ,a calling male in the flesh must be a special sight,I'm staring at a pic as i write,but pictures rarely do justice to our frogs:bash:.
Good luck mate I have alot of admiration for somebody that won't give in after a hardship knocks them back.

Back to home and darts,ickle pums













































Little aero,hungry as she goes through the dry,and determined to get out,i physically had to usher her back into the viv whilst taking pictures of which we have many,silly bold these guys

















and back to changing water on how many springtail cultures:bash:
take care

Stu


----------



## davidwilliams

*Bahia grande*

Hey stu! Sorry guys only just clicked back on the thread! Catched up on all the useful tips! Thanks to every comment guys! Bit of news I found out a possible reason why they went quiet! I little froglet jumping around and climbing the walls like a trooper!!!! :no1: been banging in the springtails since I seen the little one! So small, but I have to admit, I got we'll excited for my first pum! Maybe abit to much! (Na never!) lol. Again thanks all for advice, and we will all never stop learning, but it pays off when you see them!


----------



## soundstounite

davidwilliams said:


> Hey stu! Sorry guys only just clicked back on the thread! Catched up on all the useful tips! Thanks to every comment guys! Bit of news I found out a possible reason why they went quiet! I little froglet jumping around and climbing the walls like a trooper!!!! :no1: been banging in the springtails since I seen the little one! So small, but I have to admit, I got we'll excited for my first pum! Maybe abit to much! (Na never!) lol. Again thanks all for advice, and we will all never stop learning, but it pays off when you see them!


Great news Davey well done mate,erm you realise you owe us a picture:whistling2:


Ha ha, yup finding a new tiny frog in a viv reared by it's mum has to be a highlight of this hobby,although I haven't got a proper picture either:bash: I'll try and pop up my first sighting later just a shadow but exactly what I was looking for i thought it was about time a little red frog beach should appear,and so it has. So Dave your not the only one silly excited:blush:


GET IN 

Stu


----------



## FrogNick

soundstounite said:


> Great news Davey well done mate,erm you realise you owe us a picture:whistling2:
> 
> 
> Ha ha, yup finding a new tiny frog in a viv reared by it's mum has to be a highlight of this hobby,although I haven't got a proper picture either:bash: I'll try and pop up my first sighting later just a shadow but exactly what I was looking for i thought it was about time a little red frog beach should appear,and so it has. So Dave your not the only one silly excited:blush:
> 
> 
> GET IN
> 
> Stu


that's good news Stu, especially from a group of 6 you got in there? How big is the viv, would be good to compare production rates in basti groups to pairs or trios as I always had better success in keep them in pairs.


----------



## manda88

Just read your PRK article Stu, awesome! Front cover too  well done to you and Shaz for coming so far with your darts, hats off to you both! Really interesting read  hope you're both well!


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> that's good news Stu, especially from a group of 6 you got in there? How big is the viv, would be good to compare production rates in basti groups to pairs or trios as I always had better success in keep them in pairs.


Hiya Nicky,
yes your spot on the group consists of 4 males 2 females. Honestly Nick, they were put together in an effort to determine sex of the 2 frogs that hadn't called.I was convinced it was a 5:1,but without eggs then maybe 6:0. So this was not really the planned route. A group of pums,what mad bugger does that:whistling2:. I'm watching like a ruddy hawk mate,but all frogs are a good weight. I am ready to split if i need I have a spare viv and a spare tub that some were QT'd in. The dominant male is actually the smallest male,maybe that's why I've got away with this so far, he has fathered both sets of eggs that have been carried.
Nick the viv is not huge 50cm footprint 60cm high,but it has been running for more than a year,during that time the population of DW woods has become stupidly numerous,again maybe this aids my ability to keep 6 together,SO FAR. I don't think this is the best way to keep pum and none of this was really intended,i wanted 3 clear pr and to work on them be able to provide unrelated kids and graft on 'em for yonks. But i needed to find out what i had so here we are.
If i can rear the cems then i have one method ,without parent competition ,if i can rear these with parental competition i'll have another. I'll sort the rest as I go. 
For now the basking is actually having 2 females!! actually have fertile parents is better:mf_dribble: and getting a few pum froglets that are perfect,tops that.
The rest will come,but i don't think a group of 6 will be the most productive,just where we are at the moment.one thing I've learnt is without the right pr in the right surroundings, you have nowt

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

manda88 said:


> Just read your PRK article Stu, awesome! Front cover too  well done to you and Shaz for coming so far with your darts, hats off to you both! Really interesting read  hope you're both well!


Our new icon: 'St Stu of the Woolly Hat'! :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


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## SykeSnake

Love this thread, pretty much worked my way through every page :notworthy:


----------



## Terrarium Supplies

Ron Magpie said:


> Our new icon: 'St Stu of the Woolly Hat'! :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


Nowt wrong with the beanie brigade :lol2:


----------



## Ron Magpie

Terrarium Supplies said:


> Nowt wrong with the beanie brigade :lol2:


One of my life mottos:* Never* trust a man with a tea cosy on his head! :lol2::lol2::lol2:


----------



## Terrarium Supplies

Ron Magpie said:


> One of my life mottos:* Never* trust a man with a tea cosy on his head! :lol2::lol2::lol2:


I love my beanies... hides my fithy shades of grey :mf_dribble:


----------



## fatlad69

Terrarium Supplies said:


> I love my beanies... hides my fithy shades of grey :mf_dribble:


I know what you mean!:lol2:


----------



## Ron Magpie

Terrarium Supplies said:


> I love my beanies... hides my fithy shades of grey :mf_dribble:





fatlad69 said:


> I know what you mean!:lol2:


Shave your head- works for me! Might make you look a bit gay, though...


----------



## Terrarium Supplies

Ron Magpie said:


> Shave your head- works for me! Might make you look a bit gay, though...


don't know about gay... more like a thug :bash:


----------



## fatlad69

Ron Magpie said:


> Shave your head- works for me! Might make you look a bit gay, though...


I thought about it but the wife says no as my head is too long.


----------



## Ron Magpie

Back on topic (ish!), Stu, I know you are fascinated by Atelopus sp- are you going to try some? A bit away from your dart specialisation, but not too disparate.


----------



## FrogNick

soundstounite said:


> Hiya Nicky,
> yes your spot on the group consists of 4 males 2 females. Honestly Nick, they were put together in an effort to determine sex of the 2 frogs that hadn't called.I was convinced it was a 5:1,but without eggs then maybe 6:0. So this was not really the planned route. A group of pums,what mad bugger does that:whistling2:. I'm watching like a ruddy hawk mate,but all frogs are a good weight. I am ready to split if i need I have a spare viv and a spare tub that some were QT'd in. The dominant male is actually the smallest male,maybe that's why I've got away with this so far, he has fathered both sets of eggs that have been carried.
> Nick the viv is not huge 50cm footprint 60cm high,but it has been running for more than a year,during that time the population of DW woods has become stupidly numerous,again maybe this aids my ability to keep 6 together,SO FAR. I don't think this is the best way to keep pum and none of this was really intended,i wanted 3 clear pr and to work on them be able to provide unrelated kids and graft on 'em for yonks. But i needed to find out what i had so here we are.
> If i can rear the cems then i have one method ,without parent competition ,if i can rear these with parental competition i'll have another. I'll sort the rest as I go.
> For now the basking is actually having 2 females!! actually have fertile parents is better:mf_dribble: and getting a few pum froglets that are perfect,tops that.
> The rest will come,but i don't think a group of 6 will be the most productive,just where we are at the moment.one thing I've learnt is without the right pr in the right surroundings, you have nowt
> 
> Stu


Well if they get on no reason to pull them, reason i was asking is once i have moved i want a large viv with quite a few cem bastis just love all there different colours they produce. As we know there no hard and fast rules with numbers as in my experience there's always exception!


----------



## Wolfenrook

Stu, the answer to why it's working is in your own post. In that you have 4 males, not 2. Everybody I know who has succeeded keeping male pums together has had 3 or more (usually more) together, spreading the aggression out amongst them all. Those I know who failed tried to keep 2 males together, when you do this though you get a dominant male and a submissive male, with the dominant male targeting all of it's aggression onto the submissive one.

This is a very very well known phenomena on the aquarium scene, where folks deliberately 'crowd' very territorial species, thus spreading the aggression out and lessening the impact on any 1 fish.

Ade


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Really well put Ade!

the line between a great working density and over crowding is very fine but i think we as caring keepers that know our stocks get a felling of what is working well.

After all this is still so much trial and error in every way.

When we look back in 5 or 10 years we will be shocked at what we do now. Like when so many of us used Blacklights back in the day. I literally shudder now :gasp: but I did it in the 80s-90s.

The next big change we need to see is a real good push into live foods and gettng hold of different species. I think if we can properly crack the diets we will see even better results going forwards.

John


----------



## soundstounite

manda88 said:


> Just read your PRK article Stu, awesome! Front cover too  well done to you and Shaz for coming so far with your darts, hats off to you both! Really interesting read  hope you're both well!


Hello darlin' how are ya both kiddo,too long no speak.
Manda thanks for the words,the front cover is lovely and flattering,but not really what we consider ourselves,but thanks to the guys at PRK for the kindness:notworthy: I've told Shaz about your post,I think it's important folks know how much of this is her doing 

Lovely to hear from you mate

best always 
S&S


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Our new icon: 'St Stu of the Woolly Hat'! :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


Ha brilliant that's a new one:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

SykeSnake said:


> Love this thread, pretty much worked my way through every page :notworthy:


:welcome: to the insanity caused by one couple and a few frogs thanks for the words kiddo glad you've enjoyed

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> One of my life mottos:* Never* trust a man with a tea cosy on his head! :lol2::lol2::lol2:


Especially one that keepeth da darts:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> Well if they get on no reason to pull them, reason i was asking is once i have moved i want a large viv with quite a few cem bastis just love all there different colours they produce. As we know there no hard and fast rules with numbers as in my experience there's always exception!


The only real reason to split Nicky at the moment is to pr them up so we could actually produce outcrosses and unrelated kids. RFB have been so scarce and we might not see many more,so I'd really like to try and do something beyond just breeding them. The great thing is i know who are the parents at least of the first 2 clutches so if they grow up i have unrelated males to pr then up to. We'll be able to play around with these for yrs hopefully

Funnily enough this was meant to be a cem basti viv,but as you know things went abit astray,so we ended up wit the RFB I remember Mike and Richie and I used to call this the rainbow viv maybe others aswell.It is something we still might do oneday Nick our actual basti viv has 4 individuals in at present,but 3 females i believe. Already we have one red offspring,so I'm really looking forward to having more colours. A big viv with all the colours that the cem morph can produce would be a fantastic sight i can see exactly why you would like this.

Stu


----------



## FrogNick

soundstounite said:


> The only real reason to split Nicky at the moment is to pr them up so we could actually produce outcrosses and unrelated kids. RFB have been so scarce and we might not see many more,so I'd really like to try and do something beyond just breeding them. The great thing is i know who are the parents at least of the first 2 clutches so if they grow up i have unrelated males to pr then up to. We'll be able to play around with these for yrs hopefully
> 
> Funnily enough this was meant to be a cem basti viv,but as you know things went abit astray,so we ended up wit the RFB I remember Mike and Richie and I used to call this the rainbow viv maybe others aswell.It is something we still might do oneday Nick our actual basti viv has 4 individuals in at present,but 3 females i believe. Already we have one red offspring,so I'm really looking forward to having more colours. A big viv with all the colours that the cem morph can produce would be a fantastic sight i can see exactly why you would like this.
> 
> Stu


I get you Stu it the same thing I'm going to do with the BJ should be able to put together a unrelated F1 pair some point this year.


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Stu, the answer to why it's working is in your own post. In that you have 4 males, not 2. Everybody I know who has succeeded keeping male pums together has had 3 or more (usually more) together, spreading the aggression out amongst them all. Those I know who failed tried to keep 2 males together, when you do this though you get a dominant male and a submissive male, with the dominant male targeting all of it's aggression onto the submissive one.
> 
> This is a very very well known phenomena on the aquarium scene, where folks deliberately 'crowd' very territorial species, thus spreading the aggression out and lessening the impact on any 1 fish.
> 
> Ade


Yeah i'm sure there is merit to this Ade,Richie and Gaz talked about this yonks back to me ,but devoid of anything else i see it myself.The little dominant guy oft doesn't know whom to chase:lol2: Mind I've watched the little sod chase everyone and wrestle both females,part of the reason I was so convinced the number of males was higher. I really don't know how long i'll get away with it,but factors as I mentioned above are definately in my favour.these little guys can easily disappear from view into some deep ficus,of a well grown viv,which makes sustained aggression more difficult,coupled with the distraction factor of many males. It's worth mentioning I'm already mulling over whether 4 fellas might make life more difficult for an inviv froglet ,we'll just watch and see I guess

Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Hmmm I see your point there, froglets may find it tough with that many chaps present.

My bribri are very fractious frogs, the females wrestle any other that comes near, they don't care whether it's a female, a male or a froglet. So I keep a close eye and if a froglet looks to be losing weight move them to one of my seeded rearing vivs (of which I have 2 ready and 1 waiting for me to finish it).

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> I get you Stu it the same thing I'm going to do with the BJ should be able to put together a unrelated F1 pair some point this year.


Nick wildly getting ahead of my self, but how long for a pum to mature to breeding age,i'm distracted at the moment and sure I asked somewhere recently but maybe not:blush: any thoughts? any differences between morphs?

Stu


----------



## frogman955

About 9 months on Stu.
And your asking for trouble keeping 4 males together i`m afraid.

Mike


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Really well put Ade!
> 
> the line between a great working density and over crowding is very fine but i think we as caring keepers that know our stocks get a felling of what is working well.
> 
> After all this is still so much trial and error in every way.
> 
> When we look back in 5 or 10 years we will be shocked at what we do now. Like when so many of us used Blacklights back in the day. I literally shudder now :gasp: but I did it in the 80s-90s.
> 
> The next big change we need to see is a real good push into live foods and gettng hold of different species. I think if we can properly crack the diets we will see even better results going forwards.
> 
> John


Bloody 'eck John give me chance,i'm already 5 yrs ahead of where i think i should be now.I'm still scratching me bonce trying to work out how ,don't make me look back for god's sake:gasp:.

I'm messing kiddo,but I do think your on the money with the feeders,its almost why i wrote the above as well. I have a hunch,unfounded, that what i did as a kid grabbing the wild stuff is haunting us now.
Let me see if i can get this over how i want: 
I feel we use some of the best supps out there,but that feeling of using vits for the frogs when i don't for myself,doesn't sit well. I grow alot of good grub for us no chemicals no pesticides just good fresh grub that gives me the vits i need.
I want that for the frogs,i want to get away from the reliance on vits. I don't think that can happen yet,because our frogs diet is sadly lacking. 

Yup i use some alternatives that are not cultured and yes I'm beyond convinced it helps and is a damn big part of why we are doing Ok. But i have essentially 4 types of cultured feeder,woodlice springtails FF and weavils,for a group of frogs that live in one of the most diverse ecosystems on the planet.There are a few others I need to get into and nail our abilities on ,but even then I feel i'll be scratching the surface of what we could oneday be doing. Quite possibly the dart fraternity are one of the most successful areas of our hobby for consistant breeding results,but that doesn't mean that we could still do one hell of alot better as far as diet goes,its a great point you've made
best

Stu


----------



## manda88

soundstounite said:


> Hello darlin' how are ya both kiddo,too long no speak.
> Manda thanks for the words,the front cover is lovely and flattering,but not really what we consider ourselves,but thanks to the guys at PRK for the kindness:notworthy: I've told Shaz about your post,I think it's important folks know how much of this is her doing
> 
> Lovely to hear from you mate
> 
> best always
> S&S


Been a while huh, not really venturing into the phib section much any more but thought I'd drop by after reading your article, was interested to see who they were talking about when I saw the front cover and was really pleased to see it was you!
Give Shaz a hug from me  you're both doing an amazing job!


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Bloody 'eck John give me chance,i'm already 5 yrs ahead of where i think i should be now.I'm still scratching me bonce trying to work out how ,don't make me look back for god's sake:gasp:.
> 
> I'm messing kiddo,but I do think your on the money with the feeders,its almost why i wrote the above as well. I have a hunch,unfounded, that what i did as a kid grabbing the wild stuff is haunting us now.
> Let me see if i can get this over how i want:
> I feel we use some of the best supps out there,but that feeling of using vits for the frogs when i don't for myself,doesn't sit well. I grow alot of good grub for us no chemicals no pesticides just good fresh grub that gives me the vits i need.
> I want that for the frogs,i want to get away from the reliance on vits. I don't think that can happen yet,because our frogs diet is sadly lacking.
> 
> Yup i use some alternatives that are not cultured and yes I'm beyond convinced it helps and is a damn big part of why we are doing Ok. But i have essentially 4 types of cultured feeder,woodlice springtails FF and weavils,for a group of frogs that live in one of the most diverse ecosystems on the planet.There are a few others I need to get into and nail our abilities on ,but even then I feel i'll be scratching the surface of what we could oneday be doing. Quite possibly the dart fraternity are one of the most successful areas of our hobby for consistant breeding results,but that doesn't mean that we could still do one hell of alot better as far as diet goes,its a great point you've made
> best
> 
> Stu


I've mentioned this before, but a zillion years ago, when I was a schoolboy in Brazil, I did a project 'dissecting' the droppings of cane toads- or 'marine toads' as we called them then...

The toads, given a huge variety of things to eat, ate a huge variety. In the droppings I found wing cases from 20 or so different beetles, plus roach remains, the occasional vertebrate bone, leafcutter ant remains and *lots* of snail shell fragments. We all have heard the stories of how voracious canes are supposed to be, but really, like nearly all other frogs we know, they just eat anything that moves and will fit in their mouths. It's a fair bet that the widest variety we keepers can give to any of our frogs is still a bit limited.


----------



## Wolfenrook

I just want to add something re feeding a variety of foods. Variety is good when the nutritional content varies. Most of the time though, the variety of foods we feed are pretty much identical in nutrional content, all we are doing is changing the packaging it comes in. This is why supplements are currently so very very very important, the 'variety' we can access is hardly any variety at all, more a case of sorted potato stick one day, chips another and then the next day french fries.

Ade


----------



## Ron Magpie

Ron Magpie said:


> I've mentioned this before, but a zillion years ago, when I was a schoolboy in Brazil, I did a project 'dissecting' the droppings of cane toads- or 'marine toads' as we called them then...
> 
> The toads, given a huge variety of things to eat, ate a huge variety. In the droppings I found wing cases from 20 or so different beetles, plus roach remains, the occasional vertebrate bone, leafcutter ant remains and *lots* of snail shell fragments. We all have heard the stories of how voracious canes are supposed to be, but really, like nearly all other frogs we know, they just eat anything that moves and will fit in their mouths. It's a fair bet that the widest variety we keepers can give to any of our frogs is still a bit limited.


Obviously, these were* wild* toads- even given the resources available to me from our and other gardens, plus the 'matto' less than half a mile away, I couldn't collect even half of what was available crawling, hopping, oozing or flying by for the ones I kept myself! :lol2:


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Hiya Nicky,
> yes your spot on the group consists of 4 males 2 females. Honestly Nick, they were put together in an effort to determine sex of the 2 frogs that hadn't called.I was convinced it was a 5:1,but without eggs then maybe 6:0. So this was not really the planned route. *A group of pums,what mad bugger does that*:whistling2:. I'm watching like a ruddy hawk mate,but all frogs are a good weight. I am ready to split if i need I have a spare viv and a spare tub that some were QT'd in. The dominant male is actually the smallest male,maybe that's why I've got away with this so far, he has fathered both sets of eggs that have been carried.
> Nick the viv is not huge 50cm footprint 60cm high,but it has been running for more than a year,during that time the population of DW woods has become stupidly numerous,again maybe this aids my ability to keep 6 together,SO FAR. I don't think this is the best way to keep pum and none of this was really intended,i wanted 3 clear pr and to work on them be able to provide unrelated kids and graft on 'em for yonks. But i needed to find out what i had so here we are.
> If i can rear the cems then i have one method ,without parent competition ,if i can rear these with parental competition i'll have another. I'll sort the rest as I go.
> For now the basking is actually having 2 females!! actually have fertile parents is better:mf_dribble: and getting a few pum froglets that are perfect,tops that.
> The rest will come,but i don't think a group of 6 will be the most productive,just where we are at the moment.one thing I've learnt is without the right pr in the right surroundings, you have nowt
> 
> Stu


Me for one Stu :2thumb: but as you know i keep all sorts of groups together without any problems other than the odd female getting the urge for a wrestle. Ive also got 2.2 in some vivs my salt creek and cristobal for a start and bred pleanty of those last year. 
Glad you finally got some nice basties and youre doing well will with, but try not to get bitten by the pumilio bug it is a serious medical condition.
Theres a few nice and new pums appearing now as well but i wont go into that yet :whistling2:

Richie


----------



## ronnyjodes

richie.b said:


> Me for one Stu :2thumb: but as you know i keep all sorts of groups together without any problems other than the odd female getting the urge for a wrestle. Ive also got 2.2 in some vivs my salt creek and cristobal for a start and bred pleanty of those last year.
> Glad you finally got some nice basties and youre doing well will with, but try not to get bitten by the pumilio bug it is a serious medical condition.
> Theres a few nice and new pums appearing now as well but i wont go into that yet :whistling2:
> 
> Richie


 I'm really starting to get hooked on pums and I don't even own any yet :lol2:. It's proving tricky to decide which morph to go for. I love cem bastis, Isla colon are really unusual looking and escudo are stunning but a little out of my price range haha.

Richie, what were those pums at the top of the available frogs page on your website before you started revamping it as they were really nice looking from what I remember. They were ones you'd bred yourself but they were out of stock if that helps :no1:.


----------



## kevchandler

richie.b said:


> Me for one Stu :2thumb: but as you know i keep all sorts of groups together without any problems other than the odd female getting the urge for a wrestle. Ive also got 2.2 in some vivs my salt creek and cristobal for a start and bred pleanty of those last year.
> Glad you finally got some nice basties and youre doing well will with, but try not to get bitten by the pumilio bug it is a serious medical condition.
> Theres a few nice and new pums appearing now as well but i wont go into that yet :whistling2:
> 
> Richie


Hey Richie you can't make a statement like that and not let these nice pumillio species lol I'm on the edge of my seat now waiting for your next post.


----------



## soundstounite

manda88 said:


> Been a while huh, not really venturing into the phib section much any more but thought I'd drop by after reading your article, was interested to see who they were talking about when I saw the front cover and was really pleased to see it was you!
> Give Shaz a hug from me  you're both doing an amazing job!


thanks again mate.
Ere are you opening the shop listed at the bottom of your post? if so best of luck Manda:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> I just want to add something re feeding a variety of foods. Variety is good when the nutritional content varies. Most of the time though, the variety of foods we feed are pretty much identical in nutrional content, all we are doing is changing the packaging it comes in. This is why supplements are currently so very very very important, the 'variety' we can access is hardly any variety at all, more a case of sorted potato stick one day, chips another and then the next day french fries.
> 
> Ade


Agreed, exactly the reason I mentioned groups of feeders not x no. of ff 3 types of springtails bla bla . I did try to stress the need for really good sups too mate,not just anything. No doubts we need the vits at this time,i'm just convinced we can do better diet wise.

Stu


----------



## davidwilliams

*here you go stu!*

Here you go mate couple pictures of my bahia grande's i have got a count on 2 froglets so far, they look like there growing well, from reading few previous post i will add, i have 4 adults only 1 calling male in this tank. 1 proven female, the other 2 not known yet but no calling so hope is females.
Any way here is pic.


























the last picture is so you can see the difference between them.

Richie mate, if you could estimate how old they look in last picture be great!! i was thinking on seperating the froglets so i know they are getting the springtails, my adults are greedy and eating them all, i keep tapping some in the brom's so i know there is food high up to.

cheers dave


----------



## davidwilliams

Also if any one knows a safe way of getting rid of slugs with out affecting a frog or cultures that are in tank, I brought sheets of moss and they must been riddled with slug eggs, eating all my plants now!! :censor: im pulling every one i see at moment! Thanks guys


----------



## chrism

davidwilliams said:


> Also if any one knows a safe way of getting rid of slugs with out affecting a frog or cultures that are in tank, I brought sheets of moss and they must been riddled with slug eggs, eating all my plants now!! :censor: im pulling every one i see at moment! Thanks guys


If you dont wanna remove the frogs, pop some potato slices in, remove and replace late ever night after dark.

Will decrease the population but cannot promise a cure.


----------



## DrNick

Or... A rolled up lettuce leaf with elastic band round it. Put in at night and remove in the morning. They can't resist burrowing in and you should find quite a number in the middle when you remove it. It is possible to rid a tank of them, but difficult!

I recently set up a new big viv for some egg feeders and I was SUPER careful not to get anything in there that could bring in slugs. Tried the lettuce test a couple of nights ago just out of curiosity and got half a dozen babies... Absolutely fuming....... I don't know how they do it!!

Nick


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> About 9 months on Stu.
> And your asking for trouble keeping 4 males together i`m afraid.
> 
> Mike


Mike thanks for this,sorry I missed it first time around, alot of stuff going on i don't really want to talk about here,at the moment. As before I'm trying to cover all the bases, if I need to split 'em. Tis tricky when one needs to know which sex which frog is and they won't give you proof in a tub,I've got my proof now,but whist they are ok and breeding I'm going to sit and watch,if someone starts to loose weight i'll be onit
cheers 

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Me for one Stu :2thumb: but as you know i keep all sorts of groups together without any problems other than the odd female getting the urge for a wrestle. Ive also got 2.2 in some vivs my salt creek and cristobal for a start and bred pleanty of those last year.
> Glad you finally got some nice basties and youre doing well will with, but try not to get bitten by the pumilio bug it is a serious medical condition.
> Theres a few nice and new pums appearing now as well but i wont go into that yet :whistling2:
> 
> Richie


Ha Richie,I'd never call ya mad:Na_Na_Na_Na: Thanks for this though kiddo!! Hmm, in our case I think the medical condition applies to way too many dartfrogs,that almost makes it worse,I'll repeat which new morphs,I guess ryan might be one...any more info please share

take care mate

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Davey, to add to what Chris and Nick have said our preference is lettuce,i've not had slug problems,but have had snail problems,I can't promise a cure either,but i think with total diligence then maybe you can get the numbers down to a level where the mollusc population will finally crash.Chris says it all EVERY night and he means EVERY night. It might even be worth running lettuce in viv the minute the subs are in. Nick mentioned ,he tried really hard and some still got by him,i've had the same!!If one runs traps for the little blighters from the off,one will have a damn sight less to remove later on, plus one might just stop a problem before it ever occurs

Stu


----------



## frogman955

Hi Stu
No worries on missing the post.
I just thought that you ought to know that Bastis do not like other males in their viv.
As you said it`s not the easiest thing to do sexing them but, you`ll manage.
You won`t necessarily see weight loss though.
Look for other signs like a dominant one shouting at others and chasing them around the viv.
Look for jumping on the submissive ones back or just simply pining them down.
It`s the very subtle things you`ll have to watch for.
Keep us informed of your findings.
Before I forget, there was a post on Dendroboard where these things were observed by others, and i`ve seen it for myself.


Mike


----------



## davidwilliams

Thanks every one for the tips a lettuce tomorrow it is then! This thread stu is some thing else mate, care sheets or pages don't solve much, real tips tryed and tested! Thanks every one again! Just to add walked in on the female cauchero transporting some tads around, 2 on her back, watched her drop one in tub and carry other to another canister. So well happy with me pums at the moment, think I'm going to buy them all some broms to congratulate them lol. :2thumb:


soundstounite said:


> Davey, to add to what Chris and Nick have said our preference is lettuce,i've not had slug problems,but have had snail problems,I can't promise a cure either,but i think with total diligence then maybe you can get the numbers down to a level where the mollusc population will finally crash.Chris says it all EVERY night and he means EVERY night. It might even be worth running lettuce in viv the minute the subs are in. Nick mentioned ,he tried really hard and some still got by him,i've had the same!!If one runs traps for the little blighters from the off,one will have a damn sight less to remove later on, plus one might just stop a problem before it ever occurs
> 
> Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Hi Stu
> No worries on missing the post.
> I just thought that you ought to know that Bastis do not like other males in their viv.
> As you said it`s not the easiest thing to do sexing them but, you`ll manage.
> You won`t necessarily see weight loss though.
> Look for other signs like a dominant one shouting at others and chasing them around the viv.
> Look for jumping on the submissive ones back or just simply pining them down.
> It`s the very subtle things you`ll have to watch for.
> Keep us informed of your findings.
> Before I forget, there was a post on Dendroboard where these things were observed by others, and i`ve seen it for myself.
> 
> 
> Mike


Bastis yes Mike but tis the RFB that are all lumped together at this time. I'm sure we only have one male cem basti. I know exactly whom is dominant in the RFB viv, as I've already mentioned:the little bugger that shied away from the 2 larger males when they were in QT. It was not until they all went together that he became top dog,but without putting them together,i couldn't prove the females:having a pum that doesn't call isn't enough, when she lays eggs I know sex,not before. 
Nonetheless cheers for the words mate,Davey's post illustrates why all the input and discussion is so relevant.

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

davidwilliams said:


> Thanks every one for the tips a lettuce tomorrow it is then! This thread stu is some thing else mate, care sheets or pages don't solve much, real tips tryed and tested! Thanks every one again! Just to add walked in on the female cauchero transporting some tads around, 2 on her back, watched her drop one in tub and carry other to another canister. So well happy with me pums at the moment, think I'm going to buy them all some broms to congratulate them lol. :2thumb:


It is the willingness of others to add their accumulated knowledge Davey that is making this all work,they have my thanks too:2thumb: Just wash the lettuce real thorough in your chosen water mate

Good luck on the the tiny blue guys

Stu


----------



## frogman955

Stu if you put a Basti in with RFB i`d bet you couldn`t tell them apart lol.
And i`d bet they act in the exact same way as each other.
Make sure you have that spare viv ready :2thumb:


Mike


----------



## soundstounite

ha you know me mate spare viv and spare tub,bloody paranoid i am. :lol2:

when you have them both side by side Mike the rfb are slightly smaller and the spotting on ours is much less dense and smaller spots than cem basti,but I'm not sure how representative they are of the morph.The pictures of other folks rfb look more like cem basti,i suspect the dark red spotty frogs are the most desirable and are cherry picked first. What will be real interesting will be to see what the kids look like if we can rear them. 
Tis an interesting point though how similar will all these pums behaviour be.After all bastimentos is a tiny island and these morphs are very young in the big scheme,the islands and lagoons of bocas only being created after the last ice age,before that I've read it was all dry land.So even though there has been enough time for morphs to form,i wonder if these different pum morphs do actually have major behavioural differences....ha ha you got me pondering again mate:whistling2: I can tell you our RFB have a higher pitched call than the cem basti male,but I don't know if that is representative either,or means anything for that matter:lol2:


Stu


----------



## davidwilliams

Alright stu, yeah iv washed it good with rain water as I have a decent butt and filter sorted working brilliant in our rainy country! I was watching the progress of the pum tads in the cauchero tanks and only noticed couple froglets hopping around they must hide good, the caucheros are so much more forward and friendlier then the Bahia grande froglets I'm noticeing as the hopped towards me and looked out glass, they have a stunning bronze back which im guessing might die down like parents as they get older, but well chuffed lately, the commisioner set up taken place now to fully over grown in with creepers. :2thumb:j


soundstounite said:


> It is the willingness of others to add their accumulated knowledge Davey that is making this all work,they have my thanks too:2thumb: Just wash the lettuce real thorough in your chosen water mate
> 
> Good luck on the the tiny blue guys
> 
> Stu


----------



## soundstounite

davidwilliams said:


> Alright stu, yeah iv washed it good with rain water as I have a decent butt and filter sorted working brilliant in our rainy country! I was watching the progress of the pum tads in the cauchero tanks and only noticed couple froglets hopping around they must hide good, the caucheros are so much more forward and friendlier then the Bahia grande froglets I'm noticeing as the hopped towards me and looked out glass, they have a stunning bronze back which im guessing might die down like parents as they get older, but well chuffed lately, the commisioner set up taken place now to fully over grown in with creepers. :2thumb:j


Davey ya wanna have a chat with Mike about the cauchero,i'm sure he has showed me a pic of a froglet with a bronze back,I might be wrong ,but still worth having a chat with him on the little blue guys,:2thumb: All of these morphs have a variation it seems and some change from kids to adulthood. i'm about to post some really awful pictures of not one ,but two RFB kids....OOORRRAAA,hmm one looks more like an escudo at the moment,but I bet that will change.

Sorry for the quality of these,but something cool at the moment can't be bad.So here ya go ,our new little red frog beach kids,maybe somewhere about a week old. doing ok and god can't they jump:flrt: Still watching like a hawk and noting that more males are becoming visible daily. The dominant male still rules ,but it is fascinating watching this play out,I'm wondering whether one of the dominant males bigger rivals will get a turn with the girls soon. also to note is that big red mum of the kids pictured has laid again,hmm right at the end of a brom leaf,if they stay there full term and don't get knocked off it will be a miracle














































Cem basti kids pulled as they came ootw going great,so, so far so good,eventually we'll chose a preferred method for rearing a pum,for now,just learning da ropes:mf_dribble:

Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

how bold are your adult RFB Stu? 

also - pics of the youngsters looks fantastic, well done mate.


----------



## frogman955

Here you go Davey http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/783750-just-stu-19.html
They will lose the red as they get older but under certain light conditions you`ll still see a red sheen down their backs.

Mike


----------



## manda88

soundstounite said:


> thanks again mate.
> Ere are you opening the shop listed at the bottom of your post? if so best of luck Manda:2thumb:
> 
> Stu


I'm manager of the new Wild World Reptiles shop  thank you!


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> how bold are your adult RFB Stu?
> 
> also - pics of the youngsters looks fantastic, well done mate.


Thanks buddy,.

Jamie, with the group dynamic going on it is difficult to appraise boldness in the normal way,one would with say the dendros. Look I can open a door very gently and take pics of a couple courting/breeding right at the front,but these oophage don't yet react to us like say the tincs or mysties do, Some of the group are more relaxed than others about us,They are also the frogs that have been here longest. Essentially they largely ignore us unless one moves suddenly.


J. I've not looked out for these that long,but the beginners take is pums are down to the individual on how they react to people.We have one of the 4 cem basti kids,that knows "dinner time" and has worked out that we won't harm her/him. So she watches and gets most grub and doesn't flinch at all when we pop her tub open,the others are just abit more warey. I'm almost sure i'm going to see the same with these RFB kids. 

I'm not sure i can make a broad statement about boldness,that would translate to all, on any species.I see differences even in batches of tinc or mystie kids all reared in the same way and now lots of. I can't make enough of the fact that although a certain species will always have a greater escape distance than another, the individual will always be as big a factor 

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

manda88 said:


> I'm manager of the new Wild World Reptiles shop  thank you!


Ha Manageress Manda has a ring to it mate,it makes you sound abit scary:gasp:
I'm pulling ya leg kiddo you'll be great at this,all the luck darlin'

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Ha Manageress Manda has a ring to it mate,it makes you sound abit scary:gasp:
> I'm pulling ya leg kiddo you'll be great at this,all the luck darlin'
> 
> Stu


Manda? Scary? :gasp::gasp::gasp::gasp::gasp:


*Bigtime!* :lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:



(Joking, darlin! :flrt


----------



## manda88

soundstounite said:


> Ha Manageress Manda has a ring to it mate,it makes you sound abit scary:gasp:
> I'm pulling ya leg kiddo you'll be great at this,all the luck darlin'
> 
> Stu


Haha I'm all important now :crazy: thank you :flrt:



Ron Magpie said:


> Manda? Scary? :gasp::gasp::gasp::gasp::gasp:
> 
> 
> *Bigtime!* :lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:
> 
> 
> 
> (Joking, darlin! :flrt


Oh I can be scary when needed, my dear Ronny  :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

A few days back I took this








After studying the other pictures I came to the conclusion looks like 3 baby RFB's,tonight we got conformation of at least 3 as we finally saw all togehter all looking good and 2 fairly bold for a tiny tiny tiny thing,the minute I fed, those two were feeding,one dodging under a leaf for a few seconds as the door opened,but straight back out as the food hit the floor.

Sometimes it's just the tiny things that lift the heart,when your taking a battering,that's why we keep these mad frogs.I say mad but sitting taking to one of our oldest atachis kids tonight telling him it was dinner time and both of us watching him visibly shake with excitement is pretty mad isn't it.Jees it's a bloody frog.For the hell of it I also played nudge the fly that wouldn't move with the mysties and Dom took a couple of flies off me finger while still carrying a tad,hmm Aero did her," right i'm nailing that fly floating in the water" trick and then swam around doing a doggy paddle got her fly came out the water with that classic look of surprise,"WTF happened there,then",bloody hilarious 

A little note of thanks go to some froggy mates for their kindness of late cheers guys:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy: you know who you are. It is beyond cool to me that mates from all over the planet have my back ,most of them I haven't even met,just 'cause we keep a few frogs and they do too.That is not really something I thought about when I started bumbling around on this machine

Oh here's something,tomorrow we celebrate 2 years of dart keeping to the day,OOORRRAAA. It's not been a bad little run has it,still beginners still learning the ropes,but slowly nailing some methods on how to do all this. We have a massive amount still to learn though,good init:bash:

BRING IT ON:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Stu and Shaz


----------



## Ron Magpie

manda88 said:


> Haha I'm all important now :crazy: thank you :flrt:
> 
> 
> 
> *Oh I can be scary when needed, my dear Ronny*  :lol2:


But, we wuv you, just the way you are! :flrt::flrt::flrt:


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## soundstounite

RFB transporting taken early morning whist Stu was absolutely not awake...HOW?
Mind I've always had a policy of not waking up until i'm on my way home from work...never before:no1:








She is a very very busy little frog 2 clutches around 10 days all carried it looks like the second clutch by the other female is morphing new froglet possibly spotted a few days back,but definite new froglet leaving a brom today 

kids the oldest anyway


























What is wonderful is that these tiny tiny litte guys have already clocked "dinner time" the floor of the viv is deep in leaves look in there if your lucky you spot one,but open the door and say the magic words follow b y a tap and a plethera of springtails all three are there ready and munching and bolder each and every day
lots more pics but another hard day so soon eh

take care 

Stu


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## Arcadiajohn

its amazing isnt it Stu, If i open the viv door they all walk away. If I open the viv door with a fruit fly box in my hand they all come out??????

something tells me these Amphibs are more inteeligent that we once thought :2thumb: 

great update!

John


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## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> its amazing isnt it Stu, If i open the viv door they all walk away. If I open the viv door with a fruit fly box in my hand they all come out??????
> 
> something tells me these Amphibs are more inteeligent that we once thought :2thumb:
> 
> great update!
> 
> John


Hey bro ya good?

John,there is alot of this intelligence stuff that we witness with darts that I didn't think I would ever see and was not on any level expecting.Look I'm abit soft ,but behind that I do look hard. These little frogs are working some things out ok it is on a very base level and boffins might attribute it all to "natual behaviour" but they do learn are at least able to assimilate pavlovian imprinting. I'm beyond sure that our frogs respond to the excitement in voice for example at feeding time more than they do to me just tapping a cup,which was our original feeding method.We can actually see visible signs such as the tincs shaking with anticipation,I have a mate Glenn who has also seen this,I've not read of this anywhere.

These tiny pums are just weeks old,sure there mum is the boldest of the RFB so inheirited traits are there,but the speed they have sussed when they might have a better chance of grub,is what gets me.Their signals are a door opening and the voice, always the same two words said in the same way in the same soft but excited tone,possibly also the movement of hand and tap of charcoal,but methinks it's the voice that is the bigger stimulus.

John all our young kids start ootw with an escape phylosophy that is a natural part of staying alive,some are predestined to always be wary and will take a good while to really relax in human presence. Some worry less about people: auratus and tincs might be good broad speaking examples of both.

I know damn well some will think this is sentimental BS,but it is not that at all, there are real tangibles at play here,one could delve deep into if one was that way inclined,I'm sure it's akin to what pavlov did with dogs,but these are not dogs, they are FROGS a much simpler life form. Yet we can work up to a place where mysties go and stand on a designated bit of wood ha and their kids where little pums come and say Hi and wait patently after just weeks of being terrified of that big oaf whom looks out for them, where tincs will actually jump towards their keeper rather than away with a couple of words.........it doesn't matter which way I cut it,there IS something going on

best

Stu


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## Ron Magpie

I've definitely noticed that Bufonoid toads (for example) seem to recognise the difference between me opening the tank to feed, as opposed to cleaning, or inspecting a particular toad or whatever. I've always put it down to toads being a bit brighter than most anurans- but maybe they are all a bit brighter than we give them credit for!


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## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I've definitely noticed that Bufonoid toads (for example) seem to recognise the difference between me opening the tank to feed, as opposed to cleaning, or inspecting a particular toad or whatever. I've always put it down to toads being a bit brighter than most anurans- but maybe they are all a bit brighter than we give them credit for!



I'll leave whose brightest to the boffins Ronand quite possibly laying a tie in with parental care and intelligence,but I ponder such things as is my way. I don't doubt that the bufonids do what you say though:2thumb:

I'm perplexed by it all though me old mate,especially the speed with which these RFB kids have assimilated things.That is mainly because their viv has been set up so long(around a year I think) before frogs and does have a massive stock of food already in place. Ron these tiny darts don't demolish an insitu feed store like a couple of say, tincs will. It will happen over time I'm convinced of that,but it is not nearly so fast. So although they can find a good proportion of their diet by hunting,it is the fact that they have learned the easier option plus lost the fear aspect so quickly that is amazing. Couple in that this is happening in a froglet that is roughly 5-8mm,damn how big is it's brain:whistling2:

Stu


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## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> I'll leave whose brightest to the boffins Ronand quite possibly laying a tie in with parental care and intelligence,but I ponder such things as is my way. I don't doubt that the bufonids do what you say though:2thumb:
> 
> I'm perplexed by it all though me old mate,especially the speed with which these RFB kids have assimilated things.That is mainly because their viv has been set up so long(around a year I think) before frogs and does have a massive stock of food already in place. Ron these tiny darts don't demolish an insitu feed store like a couple of say, tincs will. It will happen over time I'm convinced of that,but it is not nearly so fast. So although they can find a good proportion of their diet by hunting,it is the fact that they have learned the easier option plus lost the fear aspect so quickly that is amazing. Couple in that this is happening in a froglet that is roughly 5-8mm,damn how big is it's brain:whistling2:
> 
> Stu


That's kind of my point (I think!), Stu; my Asian toads regularly get crickets, locusts, woodlice etc tipped in, and they eat those as they come across them, but their reaction when I approach the tank with a feeding dish with waxworms or mealworms or whatever is completely different- they will actively follow the dish if I wave it through the tank- and anything in it gets taken straight away. So they seem to relate the size, shape and colour of the dish to tasty, easy food.


----------



## frogfreak

I see the same behaviour with my frogs. I believe they can be "trained" to a certain extent.

For example, my Patricia Tincs LOVE to get misted. I have a large chunk of wood in the middle of the viv and will only spray there. They will all climb up on the wood and put their backs too me, when I start misting. They know I will not move the mister. 

As far as froglets go, I raise them in small aquariums in the hopes of making them bolder and it works. When working in the bug room, it's hilarious. After being on land for a month or so, they will follow me all over the room hoping to be fed.

Sometimes, just for kicks, I will miss a tank when feeding. It's funny as hell! They will all start climbing the glass to try and get my attention.

They "get it" :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> I see the same behaviour with my frogs. I believe they can be "trained" to a certain extent.
> 
> For example, my Patricia Tincs LOVE to get misted. I have a large chunk of wood in the middle of the viv and will only spray there. They will all climb up on the wood and put their backs too me, when I start misting. They know I will not move the mister.
> 
> As far as froglets go, I raise them in small aquariums in the hopes of making them bolder and it works. When working in the bug room, it's hilarious. After being on land for a month or so, they will follow me all over the room hoping to be fed.
> 
> Sometimes, just for kicks, I will miss a tank when feeding. It's funny as hell! They will all start climbing the glass to try and get my attention.
> 
> They "get it" :lol2:


Love the Patricia story mate,hmm the kids story is just cruel:lol2:,but yeah "get it" they do 

Stu


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## davidwilliams

All my tinc's come out as I am dusting my flys!! They must hear the cultures been tapped into the dusting tub before feeding they all come to front of viv on the mesh looking out lol, another benefit to owning a dart frog I suppose :2thumb:


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## soundstounite

Damn i'm busy:lol2:

But recently I got to spend a little down time with our SB's superblue auratus for those that don't know Stu's rushing ways,ha syntax I believe eh Ron:2thumb:

Very recently a mate popped in to talk frog,he mentioned auratus are possibly the most underrated dart,I think maybe he's right.The reputation for being shy haunts these guys,its a shame ,but it is based on fact.They simply do have a large escape distance and do take time to settle down.That said I think much is down to the individual frog,why and what the triggers are who knows.We've spent much time with our kids and some are just simply more wary of us than others and will probably always be that way. Our SB's have remained exactly the same in order of shyness since the day we got them. We have a breeding group of 3 two females one male,Nearly two years on they are getting ever bolder as the pics might illustrate taken at point blank,door open, oft simply too close to focus.

Auratus are very strong frogs. Both robust and also the most incredible hunters,their speed and physic lend them selves to this. I think they do inordinately well in captivity,but because of the shy rep folks give up on them and pass them on.Auratus are actually really quite difficult to stabilise in the hobby in some morphs,probably because of this(shy rep) many are lost.Collection data is a complete mess,import numbers are huge actually shocking for such a prolific frog.

Auratus need a seriously well planted viv,I would possibly call it completely over grown,the need for the frog to feel it can move, say an inch, to disappear is very important. They don't really care for bright light so the capacity to plant densely and provide deep layers of shade in viv is paramount to them feeling secure,but get it right and they do feel secure and they do settle and they will become visible. 

That's is the thing,beholding a frog as stunning as this under your nose is incredible,how the hell a frog develops that metallic sheen an iridescence so simply beautiful is beyond me,the very very best pictures never do them justice as to what one might see in the flesh.

So for a guy getting some auratus plant your viv up: really think about making it possible for your frog to hide,give 'em layers of anything wood plants rock above their heads and don't stick the frogs in it.Build a QT tub out for your new frogs,where they'll be easy to monitor and you can stop worrying that you haven't seen a particular little frog for 3 weeks. Shed loads of leaves co co huts,big leaved plant very simple ,but all very easy to monitor,frogs in qt,ya know what is going on and a viv growing well.

A couple of months later a move to a viv isn't quite so stressful for you or da frorshe!!They know you now, they know dinner time whether you tap whether you use voice and tell 'em. Probably they'll disappear,but you have your eye in as to how much they eat,you know you can pull back a tiny bit and because they are hungry they'll be abit more visible.You can ID each frog,just a glimpse will tell you an individual is ok.No digging about stressing them to death all relaxed all easy all good .

So I guess,all this is a debt of gratitude to the most underrated frog in our hobby, for enriching my life and Shaz's. The simple shy frog that makes folks stand with their mouths open when they see them for the first time,in the flesh. The frog that is incredibly agile, moves like the wind when hunting and is pretty much rock solid if the variables are taken out.Plus if one gives they time one gets this















Damn I hope the pics are visible,why can't photobucket just leave me the :censor: alone

OOORRRAAA for auratus ,just bare in mind that whilst they get to this stage their might well be some little kids to play with and one day you'll get to see this with the adults too:2thumb:

patience is all that's needed

bring it on

Stu


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## Wolfenrook

Stu, I have to agree with your ENTIRE post, but most importantly the importance of patience.

Just look at my d. auratus Ancon Hill, a shyer morph you will be hard pressed to find. I saw them about once in the first 12 months of keeping them, then gradually after moving them to a different viv and reducing lighting they became bolder and bolder. The other day, they finally reached what I see as the zenith, one sat on the step vent watching me through the door. Ok, they still leg it when I open the door, but the fact they can tolerate sitting right up front like that with me in the room even is a HUGE move on from the shyness they once displayed.

I happen to know that another keeper who got auratus got rid of his within that time period, because he just got totally sick of never seeing them. If I hadn't managed to hold onto my patience then I wouldn't be reaping the rewards now.

As you also already know, I am expanding my auratus collection. I already added a group of 3 young Columbian auratus, which I never ever see. :lol2: I also plan to buy a group of SBs from your good self. : victory: At present the viv for the SBs isn't as heavily planted as I would normally go for, for reasons I wont go into here. But I AM trying out a different approach to lighting, adopting the much vaunted light and shade method by using compacts rather than linear T5s. I would love to discuss this viv with you more Stu when you have the time. Maybe we can grab a moment at BAKS eh.  :lol2: Believe me though when I say that cover is never more than a hop away thanks to the design I've used for decor. : victory:

But yeah, I would love to see a resurgence in auratus keeping here in the UK, as it really does seem to be ebbing at present. I remember when I first started keeping darts you couldn't move for green and blacks, blue and blacks and el copes. Sadly though I have to say I don't personally feel they suit many beginners to darts, as at the end of the day a first dart needs to be one that you don't worry about for the first 12 months as you never see them, and one that you actually get to enjoy pretty quickly. :lol2:

One day I really do hope that I get to spend time with yourself and Shaz looking at your collection, and to talk you 2 into popping over and seeing our collection too. : victory:

Ade


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## Ron Magpie

Stu, your syntax is part of your charm- we wouldn't have you any other way! :lol2::lol2::lol2:

Joking, mate, but you know that!


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## Wolfenrook

I forgot to add, those SBs are GORGEOUS! Definitely getting some off you on Sunday for sure. lol

Ade


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## soundstounite

Guys just a quick note to say I'm shattered i'll reply soon,ha Ron 'course I know
:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Two tiny points to emphasize,look at the frogs pictured they are both 100% proven/ confirmed female. Study the body shape,one can see why auratus are impossible to sex. Oh and also the dark one is the more dominant frog,ie the smaller:gasp:!!

Stu


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## soundstounite

Ade I would like to see these frogs become far more popular.Very recently whilst dredging dendroboard I came across some fact based numbers for auratus imports,worrying to say the least when one considers some morphs have been almost completely lost to the hobby there. I too have noticed how few aurauts young we see for sale here now,compared with when I started researching darts. It is so important that folks stick with these frogs.Patience is a massive deal as are the parameters for the viv. 

But there is that flip side I mentioned in that once these guys are old enough,your looking around a year for a female to mature to breeding age,quite rapid for a big frog. Then one can at least play with the kids. Said SB male was only seen when he was wedged in a film can with a female breeding for ages,but he's getting there too now,not so I can stick a camera in his face:whistling2: through an open door,but oneday, that will come.


I totally understand what your saying about not good for a beginner,because folks want to see their first frogs.But because these frogs are so robust and with the method mentioned above I think they make a great addition to a growing collection,ours were our second frogs we bought and ok I fretted because I didn't see them.But next thing I knew was I was playing eggs tadpoles etc,they gave us both a fantastic base to learn how to rear a dart. Having this knowledge of shyness and light made getting the panama specials a walk in the park! We Qt'd didn't worry built a viv with lots of overhead cover,that I can actually see under for the most part, all good.

I would still recommend leucs as a first frog.always will probably.But ,I can see why auratus are touted along side them,folks just need to do the homework(as always) and be very aware of the fact that they have a wait on the frogs to settle and this takes time.
I'll finish up with we now have 4 SB's in our breeding tank,3 big uns and a little titch just a few days old,hopefully he'll make it,but I don't do great so far with froglets of the tinc clade in viv,we'll see. Reared artificially apart from that distant problem with mouth fungus damn they do well here. I set two clutches of eggs last year on one day,we are just letting those go now,all eggs good all tads good and all froglets doing well,I just can't knock these frogs.

Ha ha yeah stunning aren't they,but the pictures always fall short


Stu


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## Arcadiajohn

SO whats new Stu?????

getting withdrawals again!


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## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> SO whats new Stu?????
> 
> getting withdrawals again!


G'day John, ya good mate?

I can tell you we have taken a hard core battering this spring mate,but won't dwell on that so.....

Well,where to start, all the young stock is doing superb,we haven't had tads in the water now for a good while apart from the pums,whom pretty much do what they want at the moment,everything else is coming to the end of the cycling down period. So we are just starting to cycle up and I guess will set a few eggs shortly. 

The young cem bastis we pulled as they morphed out are still ok,as are the RFB which we have left in viv.So in a few more moths I guess I can say it matters not to me whether I pull a pum or not,if one get's the method right one can rear oophaga without leaving them in viv.John tis early days for me for such a broad statement MOODS(Mysterious Obligate Offspring Disappearance Syndrome ), as the yanks call it, can still strike and make me re-evaluate,but all the little pums I know of are still here and doing well.....so far. 
This is very important to me John as it gives me options to rear a group of frogs that are not said to be easy: young oophaga are genuinely a frog that folks seem to have some bad luck with,having a method to rear out of viv,as opposed to the excepted norm of in viv,allows me choices on when I want to pull back on the adults,without jeopardizing the food supply to kids.

John pums to me (and I'm a total new guy to them) present a conundrum. Once you have kids in viv and have opted to rear in viv,one no longer has control over the adults feeding regime,you absolutely have to feed the kids,if the parents take the lions share,you have to get past that to feed the kids.So now one's females get over weight.Because the trigger to lay fertile eggs in a female is governed by fat reserves,your females start laying fertile eggs,when she shouldn't,(even if she's still feeding tads) one has no control over her laying.So now one gets into a breeding cycle that is slowly but surely sapping her,egg quality is falling as is the viability of the next lot of kids she's feeding. If i can consistently rear pums out of viv from morphout,then I can also have control of the adults feeding regime. This is something I've been musing on quietly for years,I think we've pondered it here,on this thread.

Where i'm at now is I'm starting to get the chance to actually find out for myself where Shaz and I stand on this,with our set up and our pums.Ya know, learn from everyone, listen to every one, ponder all the very very best bits of wisdom ponder again and steal. 
Tis the exact ethos I used with the tinc clade,Only I could never understand the need for a tiny rearing container for tiny froglets,especially one that can jump 30cm within days of coming ootw.One gets told "Oh you have to have enough food in there",ok then scale up the food to a point that the tiny froglet can find it in a larger container.My logic dictates that that tiny froglet whom can jump that far at a few days old damn well needs some space to grow in to.So here I am again stealing what makes sense to me and trying it,evaluating it against more excepted ways of doing this.But in the back of my mind I also know that some very very clever guys,whose knowledge of darts puts mine to shame do this too. Plus I can't find a reason logically why an oophaga kid shouldn't do better out of a viv,without competition.

Thanks for the interest John:notworthy:
best 

Stu


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## Ron Magpie

That's a really interesting one, Stu- and I'm stumped for an answer! With bigger frogs, it would be easy enough to stock up the viv with smaller prey for the young, which the adults probably wouldn't bother with- but, of course, with most bigger frogs, you couldn't leave the young in the same viv anyway, since most of them, unlike your darts, would eat *them*, instead! :lol2:

Would thicker layers of leaflitter help at all? I'm wondering if the young are more or less likely to forage down under the litter than the adults?


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## Wolfenrook

Stu as you know bud I've been breeding pums for a short while now. During this time I can honestly say that I have NEVER had a female become overweight because I was feeding the kids in the viv with them, not ever. I just bung in extra springs, and then extra mels, job done. I only do this for about 3 months though, at which point the young are moved to a rearing viv.

Tell you something else bud, the single time I moved a pum younger than this into a rearing viv, it vanished. MOODS as you call it I guess. The older frogs pulled at the same time, doing fine. So I for one am not about to start habitually pulling pum froglets prior to 3 months. You know what makes it worst? The froglet was one of 3 young black jeans.

You can do what you like bud, but just don't try to tell me that pulling before 3 months is good for everybody. My experiences prove to me that it isn't. Oh and I know you will ask this, yes the rearing viv is well established with springs etc, and has been used before so has the supplements some suspect end up in the subsrate in there. In fact I rolled a bit of cork over, and beneath it 100s of springs and dwarf woodlice.

Ade


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## frogman955

This froglet was one of three which I pulled early and put in a viv to see how they`d get on without mum and dad to keep them on the straight and narrow.
All three died.
No shortage of food.
Like Ade plenty of springs etc for them to eat.
So now I like my froglets to be well on their way before pulling them.
It might be okay for the likes of Rich Frye across the pond to do it, but it doesn`t mean he`s right, and it sure don`t mean that it does work.

Mike


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## FrogNick

Regarding the question to pull or to pull I had thought leaving them in was the best case however these last couple of years I have had a lot of young which has given me the chance to test this out. I having been keeping a detail record of the progress of each froglet and to cut a long story short some froglets are runt and will die either way.

I move most of mine now as soon as I can catch them or move film canister before they leave the water. Froglets don't die from being moved you just have to do it carefully and there rearing tub is established with springtails for at least a month.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> That's a really interesting one, Stu- and I'm stumped for an answer! With bigger frogs, it would be easy enough to stock up the viv with smaller prey for the young, which the adults probably wouldn't bother with- but, of course, with most bigger frogs, you couldn't leave the young in the same viv anyway, since most of them, unlike your darts, would eat *them*, instead! :lol2:
> 
> Would thicker layers of leaflitter help at all? I'm wondering if the young are more or less likely to forage down under the litter than the adults?


Ron I can tell you,I have lots of leaf litter in the RFB viv,but I don't think that is the defining factor as both adults and kids have been seen feeding under and on this, I can't say I see major preferences at this point.sure these kids seem to spend more time of the floor and the adults tend to spend more time up,but no real differences one could play too. Mate it's all a learning curve and as above too early to be sure on anything yet,just at this point I still have options regarding the kids as they are all doing well.
best

Stu


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## frogman955

Well it`s clear from the photo above that none of my three were runts.
That photo was taken as I waited for the froglet to leave the container into the rearing viv.
No stress was involved, no shortage of food, and three healthy froglets.
Oh and the lid was never on the container as the vivs were only 6ft apart, it was in there for less than a minute.


Mike


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## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Stu as you know bud I've been breeding pums for a short while now. During this time I can honestly say that I have NEVER had a female become overweight because I was feeding the kids in the viv with them, not ever. I just bung in extra springs, and then extra mels, job done. I only do this for about 3 months though, at which point the young are moved to a rearing viv.
> 
> Tell you something else bud, the single time I moved a pum younger than this into a rearing viv, it vanished. MOODS as you call it I guess. The older frogs pulled at the same time, doing fine. So I for one am not about to start habitually pulling pum froglets prior to 3 months. You know what makes it worst? The froglet was one of 3 young black jeans.
> 
> You can do what you like bud, but just don't try to tell me that pulling before 3 months is good for everybody. My experiences prove to me that it isn't. Oh and I know you will ask this, yes the rearing viv is well established with springs etc, and has been used before so has the supplements some suspect end up in the subsrate in there. In fact I rolled a bit of cork over, and beneath it 100s of springs and dwarf woodlice.
> 
> Ade


Ade i'm in no way trying to tell anyone how to rear pums,what method to use,I'm just noting what i'm pondering and what's happening here. It's so well known that some struggle moving pums that we have this american name for this problem ,MOODS. I don't think that on any level food density is the problem,that's just too simple, I'm genuinely sorry about the black jeans mate.

I think like everything in this hobby we all have to find a method that works for each of us individually,at this stage I'm sure on little Ade,just both methods seem to have worked for me at this point. That could all change tomorrow,I'm not sure at this point whom I worry about most,the pulled or the kids with lots of adults:lol2:

Regarding the food maybe I over feed the RFB taken as a group they are all about the right weight. The female are both heavy,but hopefully both feeding tads,so it's difficult to appraise if I'm over doing it.
cheers for the thoughts

Stu


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## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Well it`s clear from the photo above that none of my three were runts.
> That photo was taken as I waited for the froglet to leave the container into the rearing viv.
> No stress was involved, no shortage of food, and three healthy froglets.
> Oh and the lid was never on the container as the vivs were only 6ft apart, it was in there for less than a minute.
> 
> 
> Mike


No it looks sound to me Mike,I don 't think there are simple reasons for this problem with pulled oophaga not doing well for some and being ok with others.I don't even know if i've got there yet with the bastis,give me another few months and I'll stop worrying.They are about 1/2 2/3rds adult size now and look great. Sorry they didn't make it buddy I don't have answers,I just want every single one to do well,whether yours mine Ade's Nick's who ever.
again thanks for the contribution
Stu


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## Lucy1980

Amazing pictures and idea's


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## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> Regarding the question to pull or to pull I had thought leaving them in was the best case however these last couple of years I have had a lot of young which has given me the chance to test this out. I having been keeping a detail record of the progress of each froglet and to cut a long story short some froglets are runt and will die either way.
> 
> I move most of mine now as soon as I can catch them or move film canister before they leave the water. Froglets don't die from being moved you just have to do it carefully and there rearing tub is established with springtails for at least a month.


Hi Nick,
again thanks for the input. Buddy when you say runt,are you saying that you can see a visible difference as these frogs come ootw or just for whatever reason a given frog is never going to make it? I'm using quite a small tub for the cem's Nick how big are yours? Ha ha 20 questions:whistling2: Do you add woodlice to seed with as well,if so which ones? 

thanks

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Lucy1980 said:


> Amazing pictures and idea's


Thanks Lucy oh :welcome:

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

I don't breed Pums, but have seen Rich Frye's frog room and have asked about his methods. He is a well known Pum breeder in the USA, with a massive collection, for those who don't know of him.

He moves his newly morphed froglets to a well established grow outs as soon as they're spotted (Fully planted vivs with lots of cover) 

Something else to ponder...

Cheers,


----------



## Ron Magpie

frogfreak said:


> I don't breed Pums, but have seen Rich Frye's frog room and have asked about his methods. He is a well known Pum breeder in the USA, with a massive collection, for those who don't know of him.
> 
> He moves his newly morphed froglets to a well established grow outs as soon as they're spotted (Fully planted vivs with lots of cover)
> 
> Something else to ponder...
> 
> Cheers,


Which again reiterates Stus' point; different people all have different methods that work for them.


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> I don't breed Pums, but have seen Rich Frye's frog room and have asked about his methods. He is a well known Pum breeder in the USA, with a massive collection, for those who don't know of him.
> 
> He moves his newly morphed froglets to a well established grow outs as soon as they're spotted (Fully planted vivs with lots of cover)
> 
> Something else to ponder...
> 
> Cheers,


Hey you, ya both good mate? ha and Da Froshe:2thumb:

Glenn I should have press ganged you into getting pics,I'd love to see his actual set up and quizz the man.
Ha ha I'm good at pondering:mf_dribble:
hope things are slightly less manic for ya matee,
best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Which again reiterates Stus' point; different people all have different methods that work for them.


Different water Ron different feeding regimes,different vivs different methods of background construction,different substrates,it is amazing really when you stop and think,you can see why we all never agree and are always debating some small point, I wouldn't have it any other way either:mf_dribble:

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

soundstounite said:


> Glenn I should have press ganged you into getting pics,I'd love to see his actual set up and quizz the man.


We're good bud! It was my first time meeting Rich and didn't want to be pulling out a camera. :gasp: I will return though. He was great and has a ton of knowledge. He lives in the same city and my sister and I wouldn't miss another visit to his frog room. :2thumb:

Not sure if you guys have them available, but his favorite Iso to feed Pums are the purple ones. Not sure why though...Oh, and no lighting at all on grow outs.

@ Ron, you are 100% correct! What works for one may be an utter disaster for another.


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> We're good bud! It was my first time meeting Rich and didn't want to be pulling out a camera. :gasp: I will return though. He was great and has a ton of knowledge. He lives in the same city and my sister and I wouldn't miss another visit to his frog room. :2thumb:
> 
> Not sure if you guys have them available, but his favorite Iso to feed Pums are the purple ones. Not sure why though...Oh, and no lighting at all on grow outs.
> 
> @ Ron, you are 100% correct! What works for one may be an utter disaster for another.


Ha ha i'm sure he wouldn't mind,but yeah I'd be the same,:2thumb: He is seriously clever,I don't always understand him,but hey what's new,there's more than afew folks whom confuse moi,let's face it it ain't hard. Yes I'm sure he's mentioned the lack of lighting.


We have actually compared pics on the CR purple,he thinks it's likely we have the same species,it's why I quizzed Nick too.It's the movement,I think why he likes these specific iso Glenn. that coupled with reproduction rates.Glenn to my untrained eye,this little woodlice also seems to prefer more moisture in the substrate it's cultured in than the DW, which might well be another feather in this species cap regarding pums 

Stu


----------



## richie.b

Stu you do whatever suits you. I myself have had more success leaving the froglets in with the parents and suggested this to a few people who it seems have also had more luck. I also know people who have taken them from the parents and have raised them succesfully. In the end everyone finds the way that suits them best but one things for sure there is no right or wrong way and people can give there experience what works for one might not for another.

Richie


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Stu you do whatever suits you. I myself have had more success leaving the froglets in with the parents and suggested this to a few people who it seems have also had more luck. I also know people who have taken them from the parents and have raised them succesfully. In the end everyone finds the way that suits them best but one things for sure there is no right or wrong way and people can give there experience what works for one might not for another.
> 
> Richie


Thanks for the words Richie,tell me mate how long do you rear them for in viv? I wouldn't say I'm sure on anything at this time,but it's nice still having options as to how Shaz and I can rear oophaga,that's the cool bit for us.

Stu


----------



## FelixM

really useful thread cheers


----------



## Arcadiajohn

H Stu,

Sounds like you have plenty to think about and as always are busy gleaning info from everyone possible which is of course how we learn!

This is why forums and clubs can be so positive! not just one persons view any longer but actual keepers that work with these species everyday all over the world. you can then weigh up what everyone has found out and take the best from it, a bit of magic and crossing of fingars and we learn!

Im sure you will battle through and end up with a frog glut once again!

As Churchill always said K.B.O!

john




soundstounite said:


> G'day John, ya good mate?
> 
> I can tell you we have taken a hard core battering this spring mate,but won't dwell on that so.....
> 
> Well,where to start, all the young stock is doing superb,we haven't had tads in the water now for a good while apart from the pums,whom pretty much do what they want at the moment,everything else is coming to the end of the cycling down period. So we are just starting to cycle up and I guess will set a few eggs shortly.
> 
> The young cem bastis we pulled as they morphed out are still ok,as are the RFB which we have left in viv.So in a few more moths I guess I can say it matters not to me whether I pull a pum or not,if one get's the method right one can rear oophaga without leaving them in viv.John tis early days for me for such a broad statement MOODS(Mysterious Obligate Offspring Disappearance Syndrome ), as the yanks call it, can still strike and make me re-evaluate,but all the little pums I know of are still here and doing well.....so far.
> This is very important to me John as it gives me options to rear a group of frogs that are not said to be easy: young oophaga are genuinely a frog that folks seem to have some bad luck with,having a method to rear out of viv,as opposed to the excepted norm of in viv,allows me choices on when I want to pull back on the adults,without jeopardizing the food supply to kids.
> 
> John pums to me (and I'm a total new guy to them) present a conundrum. Once you have kids in viv and have opted to rear in viv,one no longer has control over the adults feeding regime,you absolutely have to feed the kids,if the parents take the lions share,you have to get past that to feed the kids.So now one's females get over weight.Because the trigger to lay fertile eggs in a female is governed by fat reserves,your females start laying fertile eggs,when she shouldn't,(even if she's still feeding tads) one has no control over her laying.So now one gets into a breeding cycle that is slowly but surely sapping her,egg quality is falling as is the viability of the next lot of kids she's feeding. If i can consistently rear pums out of viv from morphout,then I can also have control of the adults feeding regime. This is something I've been musing on quietly for years,I think we've pondered it here,on this thread.
> 
> Where i'm at now is I'm starting to get the chance to actually find out for myself where Shaz and I stand on this,with our set up and our pums.Ya know, learn from everyone, listen to every one, ponder all the very very best bits of wisdom ponder again and steal.
> Tis the exact ethos I used with the tinc clade,Only I could never understand the need for a tiny rearing container for tiny froglets,especially one that can jump 30cm within days of coming ootw.One gets told "Oh you have to have enough food in there",ok then scale up the food to a point that the tiny froglet can find it in a larger container.My logic dictates that that tiny froglet whom can jump that far at a few days old damn well needs some space to grow in to.So here I am again stealing what makes sense to me and trying it,evaluating it against more excepted ways of doing this.But in the back of my mind I also know that some very very clever guys,whose knowledge of darts puts mine to shame do this too. Plus I can't find a reason logically why an oophaga kid shouldn't do better out of a viv,without competition.
> 
> Thanks for the interest John:notworthy:
> best
> 
> Stu


----------



## terryTHEfrog

Having just joined this wonderful world myself I have found myself with some las tabla (these were LUKE LONDONS and chrisM previously) I now have them breeding also when I acquired them (1-2) they came with a froglet who I left in with parents near the adult size now and doing well (3hr journey home in the snow!). 
I now have froglets emerging broms 4days ago all seem in proportion and active stayed up high for 3 days but seem to be coming down now (3ft tall viv).

I was wondering when to pull them I feel I should remove the big baby as he near parent size and don't wanna get confused (easily done lol).


----------



## soundstounite

terryTHEfrog said:


> Having just joined this wonderful world myself I have found myself with some las tabla (these were LUKE LONDONS and chrisM previously) I now have them breeding also when I acquired them (1-2) they came with a froglet who I left in with parents near the adult size now and doing well (3hr journey home in the snow!).
> I now have froglets emerging broms 4days ago all seem in proportion and active stayed up high for 3 days but seem to be coming down now (3ft tall viv).
> 
> I was wondering when to pull them I feel I should remove the big baby as he near parent size and don't wanna get confused (easily done lol).


 Tel first up well done on continuing Luke's good work,good for you mate 'grat's:2thumb:.
Mate these are your choices,only being a few steps ahead of you in pums,I'm loath to say much other than read through the last few pages,as something in there might sway your choice. You have thoughts from Mike, Ade, Richie,Nicky and yours truely.Both methods have worked for us,but just a first time in both cases so I'm gonna just say the magic word springtail:mf_dribble: and sit on the fence. Oh, I think I should add have a chat with Luke aswell,the dude has breed some pums and knows your particular frogs better than anyone.Beyond that watch for how the male frog acts towards the big kid,that might just be a factor that could sway your hand
hope that is some help 

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> H Stu,
> 
> Sounds like you have plenty to think about and as always are busy gleaning info from everyone possible which is of course how we learn!
> 
> This is why forums and clubs can be so positive! not just one persons view any longer but actual keepers that work with these species everyday all over the world. you can then weigh up what everyone has found out and take the best from it, a bit of magic and crossing of fingars and we learn!
> 
> Im sure you will battle through and end up with a frog glut once again!
> 
> As Churchill always said K.B.O!
> 
> john


Or as Stu would say keep banging your head against the wall until the :censor: falls down:blush:
Thanks for the thoughts John

best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

FelixM said:


> really useful thread cheers


Totally welcome mate

Stu


----------



## terryTHEfrog

Cheers mate, seen as the big baby has done so well I may just leave the new babies in for awhile, however I have a feeling that that the big baby is female as it does react to the males calling I think so I feel it may be time to remove it. 

Well on the case with springs I have five large rectangle tubs of springs and there heaving ! and I set up a few rearing vivs last month and had springs on the go in them !


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Thanks for the words Richie,tell me mate how long do you rear them for in viv? I wouldn't say I'm sure on anything at this time,but it's nice still having options as to how Shaz and I can rear oophaga,that's the cool bit for us.
> 
> Stu



It depends really Stu i always leave them for at least 3 months but sometimes longer, only time i take them out earlier is if ive got another batch about to leave the water i take the larger froglets out then as there would be just to much competition for food in that viv.
Ive got some juvenile that im keeping which are nearly adult but ill take them out soon so i dont get them mixed up with the parents :2thumb:

Richie


----------



## soundstounite

terryTHEfrog said:


> Cheers mate, seen as the big baby has done so well I may just leave the new babies in for awhile, however I have a feeling that that the big baby is female as it does react to the males calling I think so I feel it may be time to remove it.
> 
> Well on the case with springs I have five large rectangle tubs of springs and there heaving ! and I set up a few rearing vivs last month and had springs on the go in them !


Don't know that I helped much Tel,the old adage must apply of... if it ain't broke...
Terry 5 springtail cultures...OMG:gasp:, I'm messing with ya mate:lol2: 

On a serious note I think it's always better to be in front,good for you. Terry I have night mares about not having enough food,so I really do overkill. I think that is where the smaller frogs even though they are said to be more difficult are not so.When your feeding an army of growing tincs remember these words ,you'll know exactly what i'm talking about

Good luck mate, bide your time so you catch her easy clear cups/glasses/tubes are good,they don't always see it coming,We oft use a clean plastic plant label,to gently usher a frog,they see this not the tube and softly softly....catchy froggy:lol2: 

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

soundstounite said:


> Terry I have night mares about not having enough food,so I really do overkill.


True dat! Me too, Stu and that's why I have a massive amount of springs and Iso's in stock! :2thumb:

I had a fly crash a year ago (totally my fault) or so and it cost me a small fortune to get enough cultures to feed out and get back on track. :censor: Never again...


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> It depends really Stu i always leave them for at least 3 months but sometimes longer, only time i take them out earlier is if ive got another batch about to leave the water i take the larger froglets out then as there would be just to much competition for food in that viv.
> Ive got some juvenile that im keeping which are nearly adult but ill take them out soon so i dont get them mixed up with the parents :2thumb:
> 
> Richie


Brilliant thanks Richie, hmm now what might you be keeping ?:mf_dribble: 

Actually with what I've just written for Terry,I'll quizz you for your preferred catching method,I figure you might have removed one or two pums,at your time in life:whistling2:. Ahh how could I not buddy:lol2:

Stu


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> Brilliant thanks Richie, hmm now what might you be keeping ?:mf_dribble:
> 
> Actually with what I've just written for Terry,I'll quizz you for your preferred catching method,I figure you might have removed one or two pums,at your time in life:whistling2:. Ahh how could I not buddy:lol2:
> 
> Stu



I use a garden vac works wonders :2thumb:

No i use a small clear pot bit bigger than a film cannister and thin stick and just touch them until they jump into the tub then i put them in where ever theyre going. I use a clear pot as you can see the frog better if you use a dark one you dont know if its in the pot or not until you take it out. I find this the easiest way in a planted viv, and as you say ive caught one or two over the years

Richie


----------



## terryTHEfrog

Cheers guys !!!!


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> I use a garden vac works wonders :2thumb:
> 
> No i use a small clear pot bit bigger than a film cannister and thin stick and just touch them until they jump into the tub then i put them in where ever theyre going. I use a clear pot as you can see the frog better if you use a dark one you dont know if its in the pot or not until you take it out. I find this the easiest way in a planted viv, and as you say ive caught one or two over the years
> 
> Richie


The first line made me spill me tea and nearly choke,total brilliance Richie,:notworthy::notworthy::lol2: Shaz is sat beside me saying "what garden vacs blow don't they"...go figure,fair play I asked for it:2thumb: that's one tip I'm definitely passing forwards.
Thanks for the real help Richie,the genius is in that first line though:no1:

best 

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> True dat! Me too, Stu and that's why I have a massive amount of springs and Iso's in stock! :2thumb:
> 
> I had a fly crash a year ago (totally my fault) or so and it cost me a small fortune to get enough cultures to feed out and get back on track. :censor: Never again...


G'day mate,
Glenn I can't reconcile how difficult that must have been for you, With the stock I have it would be a monster to get back on track ,with yours ahh mate I can't even contemplate,(sorry I'm still intoxicated with Richie's post,keep chuckling when I shouldn't be:bash: especially as this bit is a serious one).
As a collection gets bigger so the difficulties increase exponentially in providing food when something does go wrong. It's alright when it's alright,but it's so worth stressing the what if's to folks. blame yourself you might Glenn,but this can happen to anyone. Yeah I might be paranoid,but who cares. I would guess that my iso numbers must be close on 50plus 3/4.5L cultures rammed, maybe over 30 large charcoal cultures. I graft at this mate and we can feed everything without using Ff if we have too, but it's not something I want to be forced into. 
I know I regularly bang on about food and being prepared for what little ones/froglets might eat,to a certain level I don't think this is so applicable to the smaller frogs,not in the same way as a guy rearing tincs auratus leucs ect. So my words go to that guy slightly newer than I if you have your first eggs prepare well for what's to come,I've///WE've done this for little over 2 years,this is one of the most important basics that we've learnt.

Thank you Glenn:Na_Na_Na_Nasorry hit the wrong button,I meant):no1:,I don't think it will ever hurt to stress this one to folks 

Stu


----------



## terryTHEfrog

ESP with hundreds of tri colour I have one the way lol 30 tads coming out of water and 25 in 3 spawns in the viv and 15 on his back as we speak. !!!!!


----------



## soundstounite

terryTHEfrog said:


> ESP with hundreds of tri colour I have one the way lol 30 tads coming out of water and 25 in 3 spawns in the viv and 15 on his back as we speak. !!!!!


Ha sorry mate I really should have mentioned tricolours...my bad:blush:
In all seriousness Tel this is what it's like...my frogs won't breed.....my frogs won't breed..... my frogs won't .........OMG,the one benefit is we have time well tad is in the water to react

Stu


----------



## terryTHEfrog

I don't mind it, it's good practice for when all the others get at it, I've reared the spawn my self but just let them get on with it now naturally lol


----------



## richie.b

soundstounite said:


> The first line made me spill me tea and nearly choke,total brilliance Richie,:notworthy::notworthy::lol2: Shaz is sat beside me saying "what garden vacs blow don't they"...go figure,fair play I asked for it:2thumb: that's one tip I'm definitely passing forwards.
> Thanks for the real help Richie,the genius is in that first line though:no1:
> 
> best
> 
> Stu



Well Shaz has a point they do blow as well :2thumb:

Another thing is i visited a breeder not long ago and he was using a long artist paintbrush to guide his frogs into the tubs, really good idea with the soft bristles. I tried it but not a succes as i only had a 7inch paddle brush being a decorator and not an artist :blush:

Richie


----------



## soundstounite

richie.b said:


> Well Shaz has a point they do blow as well :2thumb:
> 
> Another thing is i visited a breeder not long ago and he was using a long artist paintbrush to guide his frogs into the tubs, really good idea with the soft bristles. I tried it but not a succes as i only had a 7inch paddle brush being a decorator and not an artist :blush:
> 
> Richie


7" paddle brush:lol2:,I'm getting you a roller Richie:2thumb:

The brush is another good one Richie,i'd never have thought of that,a rigger might be best,maybe that's what he was using,another mate uses those cocktail straws/stirrer thingies. I like me plant labels I have to say, I think maybe the white is visible to the frogs,ha and I can always find another when I loose one,actually they are a permanent fixture in my frogroom tool kit,also used for catching frogpoles:whistling2: at morphout.

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

terryTHEfrog said:


> I don't mind it, it's good practice for when all the others get at it, I've reared the spawn my self but just let them get on with it now naturally lol


Yeah exactly Tel,the more one practises the more honed gets the method,good for you kiddo: victory:

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> 7" *paddle brush:lol2:,I'm getting you a roller Richie:2thumb:*
> 
> The brush is another good one Richie,i'd never have thought of that,a rigger might be best,maybe that's what he was using,another mate uses those cocktail straws/stirrer thingies. I like me plant labels I have to say, I think maybe the white is visible to the frogs,ha and I can always find another when I loose one,actually they are a permanent fixture in my frogroom tool kit,also used for catching frogpoles:whistling2: at morphout.
> 
> Stu


Why not use a shovel? :whistling2:

I use fine (ish) paint brushes to collect aphids sometimes- you can sweep 'em into a cup without damaging them.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Why not use a shovel? :whistling2:
> 
> I use fine (ish) paint brushes to collect aphids sometimes- you can sweep 'em into a cup without damaging them.


Oh Ron:gasp:,shovels are only used when feeding tincs:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Mate,isn't it funny how folks can arrive at the same solutions without talking.I actually use a soft makeup brush for harvesting aphids,shhh yeah it is one of mine:whistling2:.I'll add in a spot of vit dust aids in this too,the sticky old aphid don't stick to the brush,I also use this method to harvest wild springtails from the compo bins.


As I mentioned elsewhere the contributions from others really help this thread,so many little tips to help make life easier
thanks guys:notworthy:

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

I wondered how you collected the springtails- mystery solved. Most of mine have been collected more or less by accident, when I've been collecting woodlice- and in the leafmould, of course.

Don't worry about your brush, mate- your secret is safe with me! : victory:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I wondered how you collected the springtails- mystery solved. Most of mine have been collected more or less by accident, when I've been collecting woodlice- and in the leafmould, of course.
> 
> Don't worry about your brush, mate- your secret is safe with me! : victory:


Phew thank god,not the kind of thing one want's everyone to know eh Ron:lol2:

I use a say 5L tupperware and sweep them into that,also pop bits of corrugated cardboard on top of the compost,springtails congregate on this,so aiding harvest,not good when its really windy though.A pooter also does the job,but not quite so efficient in this case

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Just thought I'd pop this up for Fuzzymac,

Sorry not more news,I've been trying to grab a picture of one of the RFB kids for you all,got some but not quite what I want yet.

Stu


----------



## MantellaMan

Stu mate, thank you so much for posting up this huge walk through of what you did!! lol Not appearing as daunting now!! : victory: Yours looks frigging sweet! :mf_dribble:

I am currently making my own racking for my Amphibian Room at the moment using Chocolate Oak Board (yum yum) instead of the Aluminum which was purely a cheaper option but still incredibly strong! It will be holding 9 ENT tanks x3 - 800 x 400 x 400mm and x6 - 400 x 400 x 400mm. Just need to Chat with Richie so more!! lol :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

MantellaMan said:


> Stu mate, thank you so much for posting up this huge walk through of what you did!! lol Not appearing as daunting now!! : victory: Yours looks frigging sweet! :mf_dribble:
> 
> I am currently making my own racking for my Amphibian Room at the moment using Chocolate Oak Board (yum yum) instead of the Aluminum which was purely a cheaper option but still incredibly strong! It will be holding 9 ENT tanks x3 - 800 x 400 x 400mm and x6 - 400 x 400 x 400mm. Just need to Chat with Richie so more!! lol :2thumb:


Hi Josh,
cheers buddy,i'm not getting alot of time at the moment I need to catch up here.I'm glad it's of use kiddo. Good luck with your build sounds like it's gong to be great.Chocolate oak hmm will it go abit soft with the lights:Na_Na_Na_Na:.Is this for mantella Josh? Anyway good luck with it,I can't wait to see pics of your build. We still have along way to go until we are complete,i'm sort of pondering which and what species we might keep now in a major way so not really rushing about doing anything fast.But I do know what I'm up to next build wise ,I want the final two 2'cubes sorted.

Thanks for the words mate,I'm cool with how its all running thus far and folks stop at the door way and either say wow or OMG so it looks like the asthetics are in the zone too
best

Stu


----------



## MantellaMan

soundstounite said:


> Hi Josh,
> cheers buddy,i'm not getting alot of time at the moment I need to catch up here.I'm glad it's of use kiddo. Good luck with your build sounds like it's gong to be great.Chocolate oak hmm will it go abit soft with the lights:Na_Na_Na_Na:.Is this for mantella Josh? Anyway good luck with it,I can't wait to see pics of your build. We still have along way to go until we are complete,i'm sort of pondering which and what species we might keep now in a major way so not really rushing about doing anything fast.But I do know what I'm up to next build wise ,I want the final two 2'cubes sorted.
> 
> Thanks for the words mate,I'm cool with how its all running thus far and folks stop at the door way and either say wow or OMG so it looks like the asthetics are in the zone too
> best
> 
> Stu



Thank you Stu  and lmao I am working on a way to try and stop the Chocolate Oak from going soft :whistling2: can't be having chocolate all over the room and covering my Animals!! Ahhh this is for the first half of my collection buddy (hence why it's only 9 terrariums so far), so will be varied for all Amphibians. I am about to post up the starter post on the thread in a minute!  

Ahhh that's fair enough though, this is something that shouldn't be rushed after all!! I think you should have a Mantella species in one of these Cubes Stu :whistling2: I am still going through the entire thread right now, the way you build these tanks are fantastic! lol 

Mate in all fairness, the way the room looks looks a million times better than most Zoological Collections!! :notworthy:


----------



## soundstounite

MantellaMan said:


> Thank you Stu  and lmao I am working on a way to try and stop the Chocolate Oak from going soft :whistling2: can't be having chocolate all over the room and covering my Animals!! Ahhh this is for the first half of my collection buddy (hence why it's only 9 terrariums so far), so will be varied for all Amphibians. I am about to post up the starter post on the thread in a minute!
> 
> Ahhh that's fair enough though, this is something that shouldn't be rushed after all!! I think you should have a Mantella species in one of these Cubes Stu :whistling2: I am still going through the entire thread right now, the way you build these tanks are fantastic! lol
> 
> Mate in all fairness, the way the room looks looks a million times better than most Zoological Collections!! :notworthy:


 Josh I have to stick with S american frogs,my problem is very simple,I don't only love darts,so to avoid a zoo I have to be somewhat disciplined, I know roughly what i'm going to put in those cubes though so that's something:2thumb: 
I don't really think i'm on a par with the Zoos Josh,but this slow meandering approach suits me well.I'm trying to build methods for my self building rearing what ever really 

I look forward to reading about what your up to mate,as above much fascinates me phib wise your builds will for sure

best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

I've just pulled the rfb kids,so fingers crossed for the next couple of weeks,tips for catching are a plant label for ushering and a deep(I used champagne style) glass to catch them in i'll get more proper pics up once things have settled,here's the only spotty one of the four,which incidentally was sitting on mum just a couple of days back,she wasn't impressed,so I thought best make my move

The cem basti kids are doing great as the cem parents are rearing just one tad at the mo. I've nicked a clutch of rfb eggs I'm going to try the surrogacy route,it might end in disaster but who knows,nothing ventured an all that.

Oh this is kinda cool


Not so long ago I wrote about auratus and how patience really works with these here are our panama specials








Our female azzie waiting on a big strong male,'cause she's a big lass and a bit of a bully


Some of the atatchi kids this first is a hold back


This is spot he get's so excited at feeding time i'm waiting for him to jump and land square between the eyes I swear it will happen.He is just the tamest dart,i say he on toepads,i really don't know but he is so much fun it don't matter much


A mystie for fun and then I'll be done:blush:


Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Oh i forgot this,woodlice and springtails need Ca (calcium) to build their exoskeletons,and we all know that our frogs need it too.

We use cuttlefish also grind up egg shells from our chucks and dux,so I pop bits of cuttle fish in the woods periodically,this pic is just after doing that,half of them had left the cuttle by the time I'd got them in focus,but I think the pic says it all even in this half covered state,this stuff is important to them,every culture that had munched all their's looked like this in minutes

Quadrat et demonstrandum



Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Oh i forgot this,woodlice and springtails need Ca (calcium) to build their exoskeletons,and we all know that our frogs need it too.
> 
> We use cuttlefish also grind up egg shells from our chucks and dux,so I pop bits of cuttle fish in the woods periodically,this pic is just after doing that,half of them had left the cuttle by the time I'd got them in focus,but I think the pic says it all even in this half covered state,this stuff is important to them,every culture that had munched all their's looked like this in minutes
> 
> Quadrat et demonstrandum
> 
> http://s739.photobucket.com/user/soundstounite/media/Da frog Room/IMG_4773_zps4a847565.jpg.htmlimage
> 
> Stu


DOH! Why didn't I think of that! :cussing:*goes for a rummage through the parrot food box*


----------



## frogfreak

Wow, Stu!

They all look fantastic, not that I would expect anything different! :no1: :2thumb:

The kids look great. Best of luck with them dude!


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> DOH! Why didn't I think of that! :cussing:*goes for a rummage through the parrot food box*


Ron i'll be straight, it didn't hit home here too for a while,I knew probably as you do that Ca is a major building block for these beasties,but for some reason I missed it aswell. Ed mentioned it to me on dendroboard, sometime back,my words to myself were along the lines of you dumb :censor:

All this vit supps gut loading and pondering when the obvious is staring us in the ruddy face,shocking isn't it. A proper eye opener though actually seeing how quick they went for it,I just couldn't move quick enough to get the real picture,one couldn't see the cuttlefish bone at all,just woods,ahh the little things mate:no1:

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Ron i'll be straight, it didn't hit home here too for a while,I knew probably as you do that Ca is a major building block for these beasties,but for some reason I missed it aswell. Ed mentioned it to me on dendroboard, sometime back,my words to myself were along the lines of you dumb :censor:
> 
> All this vit supps gut loading and pondering when the obvious is staring us in the ruddy face,shocking isn't it. A proper eye opener though actually seeing how quick they went for it,I just couldn't move quick enough to get the real picture,one couldn't see the cuttlefish bone at all,just woods,ahh the little things mate:no1:
> 
> Stu


The annoying thing is, I already knew this, in the sense that I advise a calcium source for earthworm cultures- woodlice* should* be a great deal more obvious! Ah, well, that's the value of sharing ideas! :2thumb:


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Hi Stu, what a good idea!

John






soundstounite said:


> Oh i forgot this,woodlice and springtails need Ca (calcium) to build their exoskeletons,and we all know that our frogs need it too.
> 
> We use cuttlefish also grind up egg shells from our chucks and dux,so I pop bits of cuttle fish in the woods periodically,this pic is just after doing that,half of them had left the cuttle by the time I'd got them in focus,but I think the pic says it all even in this half covered state,this stuff is important to them,every culture that had munched all their's looked like this in minutes
> 
> Quadrat et demonstrandum
> 
> [URL="http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/Da%20frog%20Room/IMG_4773_zps4a847565.jpg"]image[/URL]
> 
> Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> The annoying thing is, I already knew this, in the sense that I advise a calcium source for earthworm cultures- woodlice* should* be a great deal more obvious! Ah, well, that's the value of sharing ideas! :2thumb:


I know mate,sometime we just all need a trigger for the penny to drop

It's such a graphic illustration Ron,I had to get that pic up,it's kinda funny that I nearly forgot and more folks have picked up on this than the frogs:lol2:. But i'm pretty sure i've mentioned it before. 
Anyway just a tiny bit of detail,for woodlice just break up bits of cuttle fish bone and drop it in they seem to not care for the very tough outer shell on the cuttlebone.For springtails,i use a little cheese grater to grate the softer inner section of the bone into a powder I then put pinches of this on the piles of yeast we feed them on. 

As far as us dart guys go feeder wise I would think that woodlice and springtails probably carry a higher ratio of Ca than ff do,I've read something about springtails definitely,but I can't back this statement.But pondering as I do and extrapolating,this most obvious no brainer,that I missed at first too:bash:This might just be extraodinarily important for froglets that have just morphed,especially the smaller species. For the first few days/weeks their diet consists of these two feeders,granted most guys feed just springtails,but as you know baby dwarf woodlice are easily as small.Not everyone grinds up vit dust and dusts these tiny feeders in those first weeks.This simple tip means that those tiny froglets are getting Ca at what one can only imagine is an important time for them.Naturally this has implications for any froglets reared in viv. It's why those clay substrate threads stateside have gainer such popularity as they are Ca enriched, providing added means of getting Ca into tiny frogs. I know of one case where large oophaga have been reared exclusively on woodlice(early stages pre ff) as that particular viv is plagued by nemerteans.Some guys here add Ca betonite to subs,i've got to say at some stage I want to play with their clay substrate method,it fascinates me.

Ron another little observation,nowt more As you know I use part rotted leaf little as a major component in our subs. It's collected on a clay soil.I suspect this soil to be high in Ca.Just occasionally i pick up some of that too and it tend to form little balls in the subs.Invariably those little balls are covered in woodlice when i find them.Sure it's a big step to link that to Ca,they might be drawn to something else,but it has made me stop and think on more than one occasion .

Glenn thanks mate,sorry I missed your post,I'll be happy once those rfb kids have got through the next couple of weeks: victory:

John I hope your good bro,as before the little things:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Hi Stu,

Do you know what I have been thinking about and trying to research the mineral content of soil from all around the world for over a year now. My thought is that prey sources would be ingesting small amounts of these compounds and predators would be ingesting mouthfuls of dirt and soil when they feed. 

Im sure this is natures way of supplimenting you know!

look at the amount of soil that most lizards and snakes ingest as they hunt, I know that it is less for amphibs that have targeted tongue based feeding but it should still occur!

I wonder..................

John.




soundstounite said:


> I know mate,sometime we just all need a trigger for the penny to drop
> 
> It's such a graphic illustration Ron,I had to get that pic up,it's kinda funny that I nearly forgot and more folks have picked up on this than the frogs:lol2:. But i'm pretty sure i've mentioned it before.
> Anyway just a tiny bit of detail,for woodlice just break up bits of cuttle fish bone and drop it in they seem to not care for the very tough outer shell on the cuttlebone.For springtails,i use a little cheese grater to grate the softer inner section of the bone into a powder I then put pinches of this on the piles of yeast we feed them on.
> 
> As far as us dart guys go feeder wise I would think that woodlice and springtails probably carry a higher ratio of Ca than ff do,I've read something about springtails definitely,but I can't back this statement.But pondering as I do and extrapolating,this most obvious no brainer,that I missed at first too:bash:This might just be extraodinarily important for froglets that have just morphed,especially the smaller species. For the first few days/weeks their diet consists of these two feeders,granted most guys feed just springtails,but as you know baby dwarf woodlice are easily as small.Not everyone grinds up vit dust and dusts these tiny feeders in those first weeks.This simple tip means that those tiny froglets are getting Ca at what one can only imagine is an important time for them.Naturally this has implications for any froglets reared in viv. It's why those clay substrate threads stateside have gainer such popularity as they are Ca enriched, providing added means of getting Ca into tiny frogs. I know of one case where large oophaga have been reared exclusively on woodlice(early stages pre ff) as that particular viv is plagued by nemerteans.Some guys here add Ca betonite to subs,i've got to say at some stage I want to play with their clay substrate method,it fascinates me.
> 
> Ron another little observation,nowt more As you know I use part rotted leaf little as a major component in our subs. It's collected on a clay soil.I suspect this soil to be high in Ca.Just occasionally i pick up some of that too and it tend to form little balls in the subs.Invariably those little balls are covered in woodlice when i find them.Sure it's a big step to link that to Ca,they might be drawn to something else,but it has made me stop and think on more than one occasion .
> 
> Glenn thanks mate,sorry I missed your post,I'll be happy once those rfb kids have got through the next couple of weeks: victory:
> 
> John I hope your good bro,as before the little things:2thumb:
> 
> Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Hi Stu,
> 
> Do you know what I have been thinking about and trying to research the mineral content of soil from all around the world for over a year now. My thought is that prey sources would be ingesting small amounts of these compounds and predators would be ingesting mouthfuls of dirt and soil when they feed.
> 
> Im sure this is natures way of supplimenting you know!
> 
> look at the amount of soil that most lizards and snakes ingest as they hunt, I know that it is less for amphibs that have targeted tongue based feeding but it should still occur!
> 
> I wonder..................
> 
> 
> 
> John.


John, I feel this is very applicable to amphibians,they do injest other stuff,i'm sure I've read papers again from that most patient man Ed eluding to this,but I see it,tiny bits do get stuck to food,there is also the factor with amphibians that they have this semi permeable skin. This might just make it even more important to amphibia,some folks are definitely reporting better results after using these mineral as opposed to organic substrates.Granted newer suppliments such as the repashy range are making things easier too. 

We have a similar ethos in that I feel we both think along the lines of nature being our teacher,ie these animals adapt to an environment,so we try to give them what nature does,UVB or soil it matters not ,it's just trying to move forward to the best we can accomplish in all areas of husbandry. I haven't got there yet on this one,but it is something a want to do,although I have some concerns about weight,mind that is in hand as i'm starting to move to thicker false floors and bases in the vivs we build ie 6mm not 4mm. Ha ha the learning never stops does it buddy,it's all fascinating 

John some reading for you,I think in this thread there is another link to the ultimate clay substrate thread or something similarly titled,it's definitely worth reading that one too,I just can't locate it yet to post now for you
Clay Substrate How-To - Dendroboard


best

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

The ultimate clay-based substrate thread - Dendroboard

interesting read this

On a side note, can i still get some calcium into my soil, is it okay to put cuttle fish into my viv ?


----------



## Ron Magpie

John & Stu: I live on the North Downs in Kent- dig deeper than a foot or three, and you hit chalk- which may be why I've had no overt problems yet. It's quite funny, actually, usually hard water is considered a problem, but it may actually be a bit of a secret bonus, in the long run! :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> The ultimate clay-based substrate thread - Dendroboard
> 
> interesting read this
> 
> On a side note, can i still get some calcium into my soil, is it okay to put cuttle fish into my viv ?


Buddy,i can't see why not, unless someone corrects me:2thumb:I'd be inclined to bury it though if the woodlice go for it like mine do you might have fat frogs and no woods if it's on the surface:mf_dribble: We can't remember if we boiled it or nuked it or left it as we bought it,naturally your choices dependent on your views,but I thought I'd throw that in. 

Thanks for the link kiddo ruddy search functions mess with me at times.
Finally what's your name,damned if I can remember:blush:

Ron we live on clay,it has to be run off from the cotswold escarpment,which is about a mile as the crow flies from our cottage.Any ideas on how to test for Ca anyone,to think I used to be good a chem too:bash:. The cotswolds are limestone which is Ca CO3 if i remember correctly so we also have the hard water,but erm I use that free stuff:lol2: .So who knows mate if it helps you, although I have my ponderences on these things, tis all hellish interesting all the same....ahh the variables mate:mf_dribble:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

if only frogs would throw us a glare and go "JESUS! are you trying to kill me? what have i told you before about that hard water lark ?"

i'd nuke it just to be safe, and def bury it, need to get my woods topped up. 

i have many names, most depend on this forums language barrier lol, but it's Joe, i look like meatloaf lol i am also known as Pepe and José


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> if only frogs would throw us a glare and go "JESUS! are you trying to kill me? what have i told you before about that hard water lark ?"
> 
> i'd nuke it just to be safe, and def bury it, need to get my woods topped up.
> 
> i have many names, most depend on this forums language barrier lol, but it's Joe, i look like meatloaf lol i am also known as Pepe and José


Give them some bean weavils for the first time Joe,I've seen that look:lol2: I'll go for Joe as fewer letters to mess with me:2thumb:.

Joe somewhere in this morass is a method of culturing for woodlice /iso is just so much easier, dig it out mate,it REALLY works, I mean really works: victory:.If i don't know I invariably say so,i do know this one,:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Give them some bean weavils for the first time Joe,I've seen that look:lol2: I'll go for Joe as fewer letters to mess with me:2thumb:.
> 
> Joe somewhere in this morass is a method of culturing for woodlice /iso is just so much easier, dig it out mate,it REALLY works, I mean really works: victory:.If i don't know I invariably say so,i do know this one,:2thumb:
> 
> Stu


I've cultured the white ones you sent me and the fast brown ones Richie did on the same principles- it works. :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I've cultured the white ones you sent me and the fast brown ones Richie did on the same principles- it works. :2thumb:


slightly more moist on the fast buggers Ron,little details huh and they don't eat so much of the grub,so essentially the leaflitter and rotting wood are more important to them:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> slightly more moist on the fast buggers Ron,little details huh and they don't eat so much of the grub,so essentially the leaflitter and rotting wood are more important to them:2thumb:
> 
> Stu


I've basically followed the advice you gave me- nuked leafmould/leaf litter, cardboard, dead leaves, coco compost, sprayed at one end, food (cereal, fishflake/turtle pellets, cooked veg) at the other- both cultures are busting, thinking about starting new ones- in the meantime, both species are flourishing in all the vivs I've introduced them to.:2thumb:

The tip is useful (thanks Stu!), I have noticed that the brown culture took off when I misted it more- now I know why!


----------



## Meefloaf

my main problem has been space, i've got a nice big front room (i split the house in two, due to cornish prices i own half with mother), however this front room doesnt have heating, the bedroom does. going to switch this around but just swap the bed for my sofa and tv lol. this means i should have more room to mess around in there with springs and woodlice.

i shall look for the guide, i was planning on culturing before (Yorkshireman in me is tight lol) but then cockroaches scared me.


----------



## Meefloaf

is this a good guide for woods ? looked for that thread with no luck Poison Dart Frogs - culturing tropical woodlice for food


----------



## terryTHEfrog

"The cem basti kids are doing great as the cem parents are rearing just one tad at the mo. I've nicked a clutch of rfb eggs I'm going to try the surrogacy route,it might end in disaster but who knows,nothing ventured an all that."

hows this working out and what method ????? i have some las tablas tads that where forgotten about but i put them into test tube homes in the viv in hope that they would be found.
so a bit of cuttle fish hey for the springs, i usually stick some of that collombella food a bit of bark for them munch on, is there any preb on the cuttle fish before putting it ?? on or under the surface guys.


----------



## Meefloaf

i asked the same questions, i'd nuke it in the microwave, let it cool down, crush a fair chunk of it down to dust and the other bit into tiny pieces and get it into the soil


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> is this a good guide for woods ? looked for that thread with no luck Poison Dart Frogs - culturing tropical woodlice for food


Joe that thread your looking for is the one we are talking on,ie this thread. somewhere here is a detail I've written up pics an all,on how we personally culture woodlice,plus another section detailing springtail culture,you'll need those little blighters in profusion too.

Buddy I wanted this to be a place where i could share what I learn both the good bits and where I screw up,pretty much as I go.I knew from the off we were not going to be keeping just one or two frogs,that I was going to attempt to make racks tad rearing gizmos,build our own vivs (,from rubbish glass,leastways at first).Grow most of our own plants bla bla bla. My goal was simple try and get across that darts don't need alot of money,they need GOOD care,but not tonnes of bucks.this will appeal to that yorkshireman you mention:lol2: 

But I guess really it's for that kid I was,I needed something like this when I was little,someone to show me and me dad how to build a viv when one doesn't have lots of money. 30yrs ago I used fish tanks cause they were all that was there,but I knew then there was something better! The bloody condensation drove me nuts back then,as did the top opening factor.Look I'm not knocking the use of fish tanks,it isn't my way to knock folks,there are some cracking fish tank builds out there ,but they'll always be fish tanks,with those inherent problems that come from that design. My glass cutter cost me £7,if I can teach myself to cut glass,then that opens a door to others to do the same and build a viv designed to keep darts in for maybe £15 probably less,free glass(it's out there) runners, mesh,plastic angle are costs.

What I didn't foresee is that this would get to the stage of 200 plus pages with no index,that was a real failing on my part.That woodlice tutorial I mentioned took me hours to put together,the bummer is folks can't find it. I'm singularly frustrated by it to be honest,I spent a good while writing out a springtail guide the other day for a mate,it's hard doing this over and over and over and over and over................ again when one has already given it one's best shot,time's short for all of us. 

As to your question:blush:,the guide is ok,I'll admit who ever wrote that totally lost my interest fairly quickly when it states woodlice can't climb,because I keep the little sods,I've got around 50 DW cultures,which came from one start say 4 years back and they are rammed...count what's on that bit of cuttle,folks spend £4 for 35:gasp: They DO climb I have babies upside down on the lid,to say they can't climb instantly makes me question everything else,what can I say:bash:?

Woodlice
Culture mediaart rotted leaf litter(oak and beech mix is what we use) we also add part rotted wood(plum),this is an edible substrate for woodlice:2thumb:

Container,morrisons value range 3L tupperware £1 or later on 4.5L tupp. from tescos £1.50

cut a 1" hole in one end with a holesaw,remove burrs this is your dry end

cover vent with cheeps tesco J cloth...NOT real J cloth...holes too big!! use 1/2" insulation tape to secure

nuke subs boil wood bits

add subs to tub to 1" from the top

cut a couple of bit of corrugated cardboard plain brown no dyes no tape residues just plain !! place these midway down one side place lid on leave for 24 hours

label and date the unvented end write on label water this end: here's why you will always keep this end wetter, you will always mist this wet end,the vent end will dry quicker,now you have a humidity grad across the culture,so your iso can always be at exactly their optimum humidity...cool huh.

Feed a small pile of microwaved tesco cheepo readybreak,plus a tiny amount of fish flake(search tocopherols)
add starter culture

keep them warm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
sorted

ok why are those edible subs so important,well if you get an outbreak of mites,the odds are they will be grain mites so if you stop feeding the FF and ready B then your mites will crash and die,BUT the woodlice already have all the grub they need so they'll keep on multiplying, resume normal feeding as an when you think all is good. Ha ha LMFAO that sh*t is bordering clever eh?:lol2:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

Stu, you are a star :no1:. thank you for the help once again, it's very helpful for someone like me to have guys like you, myshed, fatlad, jay, ron etc who have helped me with all my issues and questions.

maybe you should post the guide for woods and get a mod to sticky it, that way everyone can get at it and you wont end up with bones for fingers lol


----------



## soundstounite

terryTHEfrog said:


> "The cem basti kids are doing great as the cem parents are rearing just one tad at the mo. I've nicked a clutch of rfb eggs I'm going to try the surrogacy route,it might end in disaster but who knows,nothing ventured an all that."
> 
> hows this working out and what method ????? i have some las tablas tads that where forgotten about but i put them into test tube homes in the viv in hope that they would be found.
> so a bit of cuttle fish hey for the springs, i usually stick some of that collombella food a bit of bark for them munch on, is there any preb on the cuttle fish before putting it ?? on or under the surface guys.


Tel,
most of this is written as it happens,so i'm waiting for the RFB eggs to hatch as we speak,this is the point,I DO NOT know it all I AM not an expert,I'm writing what I see/do pretty much as it happens.Look it's way easier to build a viv and not share it.... not share the build until one know's it's ok,I take pics and show as we go,if it goes pant's at some stage when i'm ready I'll tell you why I think it went pants:lol2: if I can 

The basti tads are reared in that hole sawed bit of wood with film cans,you've seen the pics,so now they are rearing one and armed with only observations I'm going to pop rfb tads in the other cans.

Tel this really might go pear shaped,my hopes are based on those observations.Mum when she feeds tads climbs up that bit of oak and peers into each can,it's like she can't work out which one of the identical cans tads are in,tads will respond to seeing mum,their is a dance they do I have read of BUT NOT SEEN!!! So I hope she'll get enough of a response and be confused enough by those identical cans to think "oh that's where I put my kid" if I've read her right she'll feed the rfb,if I haven't they are doomed.Tel pums seem at least in captivity to produce more kids than they can actually rear,I don't honestly know if this happens in the wild.Maybe a form of natural selection,maybe we just feed too much,I don't know!!! From what I can gather this happens with other oophaga too,in captivity.

Tel, I think we learn more if we put stuff out there as we try it. guys will chime in with their point of view,it's all good mate. I get their thoughts right or wrong ,it matters not to me. But they might raise a point I haven't thought through.Frankly I'll evaluate the thoughts of a 4 year old let alone a seasoned dart keeper,I ain't perfect,that ruddy 4year old might have something I missed:bash:

Grated cuttle for springtails broken bits for iso,treat how you want,I probably nuked it ,but I genuinely can't remember. I find my self somewhere in the middle of the bake it sterilise it debate,which is so complex I'll not go further for the mo.:lol2: the collumbola food I believe contains Ca,but I can't be sure mate.I stopped using it years ago. I'd have to take out a ruddy loan to use that stuff with what my springtails eat:gasp:


good luck mate,nowt written in stone yet:lol2:

Stu


----------



## terryTHEfrog

thanks for the responses stu, i do like you view on things lol
ive done a little research on artificially raising and the general consensus was that that it didnt work and if it did then then they ended up MOSTLY sls?
i think its great how the parents know where there babies are and prob do it better then some humans lol.


oh so your using a frog as mother to feed not fully raised by you with man made food??

yeah i have only been on this frog quest for the last 10 months, and i love it and i am deffinatly addicted. learn something new everyday.
yeah i was quite excited by the large clutches of pums like the other darts but its not like that on froglet ratio

yeah I've just realised that with the collombela!!!!!!!!!!!! ill have a go with pointers youve made aswell


----------



## terryTHEfrog

Meefloaf said:


> Stu, you are a star :no1:. thank you for the help once again, it's very helpful for someone like me to have guys like you, myshed, fatlad, jay, ron etc who have helped me with all my issues and questions.
> 
> maybe you should post the guide for woods and get a mod to sticky it, that way everyone can get at it and you wont end up with bones for fingers lol


here here get a sticky


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> Stu, you are a star :no1:. thank you for the help once again, it's very helpful for someone like me to have guys like you, myshed, fatlad, jay, ron etc who have helped me with all my issues and questions.
> 
> maybe you should post the guide for woods and get a mod to sticky it, that way everyone can get at it and you wont end up with bones for fingers lol


Joe one can sticky stuff all one likes but folks won't read it ie one can lead a horse to water but no way to make the bugger drink.

Give em what is it 231 pages of info ok and totally bonkers malarky (and crack betwixt mates to be skipped over) and you'll still get the same q's. 

Mate it's the biggest shame,because very few of the real real learned guys can hack it. They get burnt out By learned I mean the guys that have racked up years of expertise,plus have that "brain",gifted being another word. For god knows what reason some of them have taken me and Shaz under their collective wings,some of what they teach me comes out here.Some of it is what we somehow learned on our own:lol2: My /Our debt of gratitude is to them, you have no idea how much patience and kindness is out there in the dart world.It is so awesome:2thumb:

I just try to help with little bits to the next generation of frog keepers for their frogs as do the other guys you've mentioned,I'm sure they would say the same thing. 

Stickying one guys method is tricky kiddo.We all have slightly different circumstances,slightly different variables,which makes one thing work for one guy and something utterly different work for another.One can elicit that just from asking a simple question such as "what water should I use for my dart frogs",you'll get answers from hma to rainwater to treated tap water to RO with top ups(which will also add another variety of variable) even untreated tap water,all might be spot on given those variables. Of course my woodlice method is foolproof:Na_Na_Na_Na: nah i'm joking,it really does work for me and a few i've passed it too,but for everyone who knows?............ you get my point though:2thumb: 

your very welcome Joe, I truly hope it works for you:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

terryTHEfrog said:


> thanks for the responses stu, i do like you view on things lol
> ive done a little research on artificially raising and the general consensus was that that it didnt work and if it did then then they ended up MOSTLY sls?
> i think its great how the parents know where there babies are and prob do it better then some humans lol.
> 
> 
> oh so your using a frog as mother to feed not fully raised by you with man made food??
> 
> yeah i have only been on this frog quest for the last 10 months, and i love it and i am deffinatly addicted. learn something new everyday.
> yeah i was quite excited by the large clutches of pums like the other darts but its not like that on froglet ratio
> 
> yeah I've just realised that with the collombela!!!!!!!!!!!! ill have a go with pointers youve made aswell


Allinson's yeast mate yellow tub red writing tesco about 60p,give it a shot on some see how you go.
Tel have a read on Robbster.com under the title alternatives for obligates,i'd link ya direct but thought you'ld enjoy the pics first:mf_dribble:

Yeah I'm trying the surrogacy route with 2 morphs that live right next door to each other,so negating Some,BUT NOT ALL of the risks there in.

Obligate tads, to froglets, doesn't translate from what I can gather either kiddo not for pums or other obligates as you'll read. There is still a big nut to be cracked here mate. Nature is an immense force it's difficult bettering or even being equal to a mum doing what nature intended

That's the thing Terry,with ref to your mum knowing where the tads are,these tiny frogs really are bloody amazing how they do what they do,a mum pum feeding tads some 200' up a tree in different tress,is profound.

I probably won't win this one kiddo,but I might just have a ***** in her armour,we'll see......can she count those cans? are these just too far behind the single tad of her own? can she count "i'm feeding just one tad" so many reasons to fail here,but the man who never failed,well what did he do:whistling2: This one still has variables I can take out such as tad age differential,it's all about finding a method for me mate,or some methods if I can,yeah that'll do
bring it on

Stu


----------



## terryTHEfrog

soundstounite said:


> Allinson's yeast mate yellow tub red writing tesco about 60p,give it a shot on some see how you go.
> Tel have a read on Robbster.com under the title alternatives for obligates,i'd link ya direct but thought you'ld enjoy the pics first:mf_dribble:
> 
> Yeah I'm trying the surrogacy route with 2 morphs that live right next door to each other,so negating Some,BUT NOT ALL of the risks there in.
> 
> Obligate tads, to froglets, doesn't translate from what I can gather either kiddo not for pums or other obligates as you'll read. There is still a big nut to be cracked here mate. Nature is an immense force it's difficult bettering or even being equal to a mum doing what nature intended
> 
> That's the thing Terry,with ref to your mum knowing where the tads are,these tiny frogs really are bloody amazing how they do what they do,a mum pum feeding tads some 200' up a tree in different tress,is profound.
> 
> I probably won't win this one kiddo,but I might just have a ***** in her armour,we'll see......can she count those cans? are these just too far behind the single tad of her own? can she count "i'm feeding just one tad" so many reasons to fail here,but the man who never failed,well what did he do:whistling2: This one still has variables I can take out such as tad age differential,it's all about finding a method for me mate,or some methods if I can,yeah that'll do
> bring it on
> 
> Stu


Nothing ventured nothing gained ........ That's why I moved the four tads they forgot about close to a brom they use( test tubes cable tied to a branch) for tad raising and I can observe them (clear test tubes). Been a couple of days so I put a pinch of the sera powder in and the tads loved it.

I have that allinsons yeast! Shall I just put the balls in or make a paste out of it (tried paste before with mixed results I think).

On a separate note I've let dad run he's course with the non stop flow of tri color spawn! and let him do the whole dad thing and drop the kids in the pool. However on his latest drop I have noticed a DUD egg in the water pool ??? Could this have been piced up by accident when collecting tads ??


----------



## soundstounite

terryTHEfrog said:


> Nothing ventured nothing gained ........ That's why I moved the four tads they forgot about close to a brom they use( test tubes cable tied to a branch) for tad raising and I can observe them (clear test tubes). Been a couple of days so I put a pinch of the sera powder in and the tads loved it.
> 
> I have that allinsons yeast! Shall I just put the balls in or make a paste out of it (tried paste before with mixed results I think).
> 
> On a separate note I've let dad run he's course with the non stop flow of tri color spawn! and let him do the whole dad thing and drop the kids in the pool. However on his latest drop I have noticed a DUD egg in the water pool ??? Could this have been piced up by accident when collecting tads ??


It could well be just an accident ,Tel.Tricolour pic up alot of tads:2thumb:.I don't know though mate,I've not kept tricolour and haven't heard of this before.

Tel,when using the charcoal method,I mist very frequently,ie daily or every other day,for 3 reasons.One it vents the culture,2 it keeps the charcoal nice and wet up top,3 I think!! it might help wash mites down into the water at the bottom,so slowing their chance to multiply.So when adding yeast,just mist first ,to get the charcoal wet,pour in little piles and mist again,until the piles are wet.No mess just easy. When the yeast pot is full,be damn careful mate,its very easy to pour in too much and make a godamnn pigs ear of things :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Prepare to be dazzled,by small red things made bigger,but first here are those RFB eggs,they hatched today and are now transferred to a new mum,for those just reading this please be aware there is no certainty to the outcome of this one apart from me possibly learning something


Here are our red frog beach kids they are such a vibrant colour in the flesh it's amazing














Mum summersi probably close to laying again,she always looks like this just before eggs and those eggs probably won't have embryos in,but we can hope I guess



Seeya

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

You know the actors or musicians who become 'overnight successes' by working their arse off for years, until the work they put in gets recognised? Stu is a bit like that; you want to get annoyed with him, till you realise that 1) he has *totally *worked for what he has achieved and 2) he is very possibly the nicest guy on RFUK. It's infuriating. :devil:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> You know the actors or musicians who become 'overnight successes' by working their arse off for years, until the work they put in gets recognised? Stu is a bit like that; you want to get annoyed with him, till you realise that 1) he has *totally *worked for what he has achieved and 2) he is very possibly the nicest guy on RFUK. It's infuriating. :devil:


Ahh man but my music isn't successful, Ron:Na_Na_Na_Na::.Hmm but i do work my arse off at it:lol2:

You kill me with kindness Sir thanks man:notworthy: 'Ere dude did those little frogs make ya see red:mf_dribble: 

Ron you've heard this before,but this (if we have achieved anything) is a two person effort I simply couldn't pull this off without Shaz's graft.every now and then when someone says something really kind I feel a need to share this fact.

That she takes hard core pain killer and still just gets on and does is :censor: inspiring so your compliment is for her:no1:

thanks bro:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Ahh man but my music isn't successful, Ron:Na_Na_Na_Na::.Hmm but i do work my arse off at it:lol2:
> 
> You kill me with kindness Sir thanks man:notworthy: 'Ere dude did those little frogs make ya see red:mf_dribble:
> 
> Ron you've heard this before,but this (if we have achieved anything) is a two person effort I simply couldn't pull this off without Shaz's graft.every now and then when someone says something really kind I feel a need to share this fact.
> 
> That she takes hard core pain killer and still just gets on and does is :censor: inspiring so your compliment is for her:no1:
> 
> thanks bro:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
> 
> Stu


It's for you both! :2thumb: Sorry Shaz if I seemed to be ignoring you- just that it's usually Stu who posts- I totally get that it's a team effort- and you both have a lot to be proud of.


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Yes I agree totally! A real credit to the hobby!

John




Ron Magpie said:


> You know the actors or musicians who become 'overnight successes' by working their arse off for years, until the work they put in gets recognised? Stu is a bit like that; you want to get annoyed with him, till you realise that 1) he has *totally *worked for what he has achieved and 2) he is very possibly the nicest guy on RFUK. It's infuriating. :devil:


----------



## s6t6nic6l

with this time of year do you get out into the garden and knock the free food source that are aphids, greenfly and such off the stems/weeds into a tub/jar for the darts?
I do and my mantella relish these good wholesome juicy snacks :2thumb:

good reading and great work as usual mr.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron yes I know you know how much she puts in,but not everyone might realise that,thanks for the constant kindness buddy Same for you too John for the help and thoughts with your lighting expertise too.

Nic, how are you mate? We tend to use a biggish tupperware and a soft brush for aphid on roses,sow thistle nettles etc where they are mainly non winged or plants are soft.I pop abit of vit dust in the tub and dust the brush it stops them getting stuck to it. For trees like seycamore,Hazel, we tap the tree and harvest ie beating stick and tray/net sort with pooter.Field sweepings I use a heavy entemologists collecting net and pooter to sort out the goodies that are suitable to be fed to tiny mouths.But yeah hugely important feeders,worth the effort and more fun than culturing:2thumb:

thanks kiddo

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

.....so with them rocks that you covered in rockoflex, did you just paint over that with acrylic paint, thats it ? no need to seal ?


EDIT: so, i read alot of pages and i saw alot of things, and all i can say is, up yours Stu!!!! you've made me think about constructing my build all differently!:devil::devil::devil:

however, this is a good thing as i've been struggling with vine placement etc got a really nice one which looks good in several places, it forks off so could come out the back and down the front like roots, or if it comes out the side, have a cool little place for frogs to chill out. Also the idea of doing the planters first then putting them in, genius. your method seems like the one for me, the one where you can sit back and place things, look them over and adjust, rather than spray foam and push and hope for the best lol.

do you silicone your planters to the cork ? could i use GG and keep it pushed etc would look nice too as gg round the edge would help it blend in .

you're a bloody legend fella

p.s about this cider thing, ever had strawberry wine ? not mead


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> .....so with them rocks that you covered in rockoflex, did you just paint over that with acrylic paint, thats it ? no need to seal ?
> 
> 
> EDIT: so, i read alot of pages and i saw alot of things, and all i can say is, up yours Stu!!!! you've made me think about constructing my build all differently!:devil::devil::devil:
> 
> however, this is a good thing as i've been struggling with vine placement etc got a really nice one which looks good in several places, it forks off so could come out the back and down the front like roots, or if it comes out the side, have a cool little place for frogs to chill out. Also the idea of doing the planters first then putting them in, genius. your method seems like the one for me, the one where you can sit back and place things, look them over and adjust, rather than spray foam and push and hope for the best lol.
> 
> do you silicone your planters to the cork ? could i use GG and keep it pushed etc would look nice too as gg round the edge would help it blend in .
> 
> you're a bloody legend fella
> 
> p.s about this cider thing, ever had strawberry wine ? not mead


Nope:Na_Na_Na_Na:
poly
rocko
stained epoxy
coloured rockdust
kerching

A rock that feels cold to the touch but messes with your head because pick it up and your brain tells you stone and your hand asses the wrong weight and your hand moves upwards,tis the wierdest thing:lol2: woodlice think yup I'll live under there...proper strange it fools them too:no1:

Buddy can you see why I wanted you to read this,it's not about me being a legend:lol2:,it's me giving back in my little way for the help I've been blessed with.,granted I probably suffer from many disorders:Na_Na_Na_Na: ocd inability to grasp eng lang,frog love bla bla so you get silly with real info.

Joe the ethos behind our dart vivs are choosing the frog you want to care for...you want to keep. it is very easy to build a viv to our eyes,but not for that frog.

Once you know what you want to keep then you can start to learn where that frog lives, does it live up a mountain, in deep forest shade, on a beach,is it found mostly forest floor is it up abit. These all are applicable factors to viv design and lighting requirements. All this is constrained by poxy glass boxes, 

But my way of thinking is one needs to really think, because of those constraints.The smaller the viv the harder to get right!! I have never been to south america, I am very familiar with some of our native woodlands,so I steal ideas and apply to that frog from what I know and what pictures tell me of their native habitats dendrobates.org might be useful in that quest. 

The planters are shown here: pot foam rocko epoxy dry subs,they are simply siliconed to the cork as you have gathered.Their function is two fold a space for a plant:lol2:,plus a hiding space where a frog feels secure,it can back up and disappear with the blink of an eye,so even shy frogs can be monitored right at the front of a viv. 

As i learn more about the frogs and learn more about building a viv, I'm becoming more aware of how it is possible to build planters into rocks, bits of wood etc.but they are still worth using on their own,just be cause they work so damn well.Oh and I'v e stolen the idea,it isn't mine:2thumb:I'm not that genius:lol2:

Joe, create a picture in your mind of a tiny bit of where your chosen frog lives then paint a slice of that habitat into the viv. Think of calling perches for boys safe havens for shy frogs,areas for them to rummage about in leaves for food climbing frames for exercise...A jungle gym is a cool expression... places safe to lay eggs,tad depo sites if needed,all applied to a species/morph.

Yeah some time in the distant past had strawberry wine I remember little aprt from the smell was fab.not so great a taste,not much more.A mate brings strawberry cider over occasionally..too sweet. 

Some time very soon i guess we'll have to bring those red things home in a wheel barrow,someone said they are the best strawberries money can't buy. I dunno ,folks on allotments wanna grow cabbage,sod it I'd rather get fat for a month or two and work it off later digging spud. 

If we still lived down south with good water that some :censor: water company hadn't messed with, them I guess we would make some killer strawberry wine.But here our wine sucks definitely water quality so we don't bother now.Gone are the days of knocking down ten men with a demijohn with the best tasting alcohol they could remember...ok well still able to speak:2thumb::no1::lol2: 


kinda sad really

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

Cheers for the info man, with my first build which has now become 0.5 I always felt that I'd not given the milkies enough places to hang out or hide. I've been using my memories of the woods and forests I used to roam, tho I'll leave out the burnt out cars lol.

As for the wine, on the way to newquay is the zider farm who produce rattler, they also do fruit wines which taste more like cider, a bottle goes down far to easily, ice cold, tis a dream. Go nice with that baks cheese

P.s, where you get that cork from, going by online prices, glad I'm just doing the one atm


----------



## Meefloaf

also, i know you've got it in a room and loads of terrariums, so easier for you to keep heat.

I've got an exo 60x45x60 I'm currently sacrificing around 30cm of the 45cm side for a heat mat to keep my terra temps up, I've hassled many a person on here about it lol. Just with losing that side to the mat, my vines tend to come from left back across, makes it look rather, erm, angled ?. 

if there is no other way, could i get away with adhering a branch to the glass where the heat mat is ?


----------



## s6t6nic6l

soundstounite said:


> Nic, how are you mate? We tend to use a biggish tupperware and a soft brush for aphid on roses,sow thistle nettles etc where they are mainly non winged or plants are soft.I pop abit of vit dust in the tub and dust the brush it stops them getting stuck to it. For trees like seycamore,Hazel, we tap the tree and harvest ie beating stick and tray/net sort with pooter.Field sweepings I use a heavy entemologists collecting net and pooter to sort out the goodies that are suitable to be fed to tiny mouths.But yeah hugely important feeders,worth the effort and more fun than culturing:2thumb:
> 
> thanks kiddo
> 
> Stu


noted thanks. I only need a few and forget what scale you have to work at to provide :notworthy:

and with being as ignorant as the rest  I should have quoted: 

good reading mr. and great work as usual mr. & mrs. unite :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> also, i know you've got it in a room and loads of terrariums, so easier for you to keep heat.
> 
> I've got an exo 60x45x60 I'm currently sacrificing around 30cm of the 45cm side for a heat mat to keep my terra temps up, I've hassled many a person on here about it lol. Just with losing that side to the mat, my vines tend to come from left back across, makes it look rather, erm, angled ?.
> 
> if there is no other way, could i get away with adhering a branch to the glass where the heat mat is ?


Joe as you've already noted we insulated the room and heat that,so much more practical for us.Consequently my experience with heat mats,is very small.I have one and honestly thought it was pants I used it to warm a cupboard when we first started culturing while we were building out the room,unfortunately I think I don't know enough to help much. I have heard that some guys use them under a false glass floor,but also that this could cause problems,by drying the subs out too much. I'm very aware that folks living in older houses can find it very tricky to keep temps stable on low numbers of vivs,so much so that some have said sod it and gone the oil rad heat the room route. If one attached wood to the glass,I'd probably make/cut a little bit of polystyrene and fiz the wood to that and that to the glass,the poly will give some give as the wood will expand once wet, with viv humidity.One wouldn't want that expansion to crack the glass...it might happen I might be being over cautious,but this is always the method we use to fix wood and glass.My other concern is the insulating factor of wood and polystyrene and whether this might create a hot spot again with less than desirable results.I tend to just be naturally cautious with glass...it takes no prisoners:devil: 

Sorry I can't be more help on this one mate.

Maybe someone reading this can chime in and help Joe out please:notworthy:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> noted thanks. I only need a few and forget what scale you have to work at to provide :notworthy:
> 
> and with being as ignorant as the rest  I should have quoted:
> 
> good reading mr. and great work as usual mr. & mrs. unite :2thumb:


Thanks kiddo:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

Cheers Stu, luckily in my play about, went down my local rep shop and bought more wood lol, there is no need to risk the gluing on the glass, thank god, thought it might be an issue.

as for heat, it's/i've been a nightmare worrying about it, a few wiser heads have calmed me down and reminded me Milk Frogs are quite hardy and can deal with the heats i'm getting.

just one of those learning curves, when i had these animals as a kid, i obviously wasnt that great with them, but now i've returned i'm eager to get it right. i'm a natural born worrier I must say


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> Cheers Stu, luckily in my play about, went down my local rep shop and bought more wood lol, there is no need to risk the gluing on the glass, thank god, thought it might be an issue.
> 
> as for heat, it's/i've been a nightmare worrying about it, a few wiser heads have calmed me down and reminded me Milk Frogs are quite hardy and can deal with the heats i'm getting.
> 
> just one of those learning curves, when i had these animals as a kid, i obviously wasnt that great with them, but now i've returned i'm eager to get it right. i'm a natural born worrier I must say


Joe, same as mate...water...humidity...eggs:gasp:/incubation tads food housing viv design..it's completely +ve mate your animals will do well while you worry your ass off:2thumb: Yup i came back after 30 years,did pretty good as a kid i guess,didn't breed anything exotic,but greatly enhanced the number of common frogs and toads in Torbay:whistling2:.But almost all my exotic stuff lived for many years,I've a vague recollection I lost a fire sal to a fungal infection.If one considers how little we had to dig into knowledge wise back then,it would be harsh to beat up on that little kid.

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

As I've said before, I use mats under the tanks- I've found that they are most effective that way, and I haven't had any glass cracking problems- to be sure, in those few tanks that don't have a drainage layer, I keep the substrate level thin. One thing that might help with mats *wherever* they are placed, is to make sure that they are sandwiched between the glass and an external sheet of poly- this makes sure that the heat goes *in*, rather than *out*.


----------



## Meefloaf

so if i had a drainage layer of leca ron, what thickness' should i be doing if i'm going under the tank ?

when i originally got into the idea of getting whites tree frogs (milkies now) i was going with it under the tank, then all these horror stories etc, mind you i've had people saying it's okay to have a ceramic heat emitter and those red heat bulbs, and then others saying no, tbf i was trying to steer clear myself as i've found too many newts in my garden looking like jerky


----------



## Meefloaf

soundstounite said:


> Joe, same as mate...water...humidity...eggs:gasp:/incubation tads food housing viv design..it's completely +ve mate your animals will do well while you worry your ass off:2thumb: Yup i came back after 30 years,did pretty good as a kid i guess,didn't breed anything exotic,but greatly enhanced the number of common frogs and toads in Torbay:whistling2:.But almost all my exotic stuff lived for many years,I've a vague recollection I lost a fire sal to a fungal infection.If one considers how little we had to dig into knowledge wise back then,it would be harsh to beat up on that little kid.
> 
> Stu


i brought stick insects down with me on holiday to cornwall as a young lad, now i live in my grandads house here and you get the odd one still tucked away in the privet lol


----------



## Ron Magpie

Meefloaf said:


> so if i had a drainage layer of leca ron, what thickness' should i be doing if i'm going under the tank ?
> 
> when i originally got into the idea of getting whites tree frogs (milkies now) i was going with it under the tank, then all these horror stories etc, mind you i've had people saying it's okay to have a ceramic heat emitter and those red heat bulbs, and then others saying no, tbf i was trying to steer clear myself as i've found too many newts in my garden looking like jerky


I use about 1 1/2 to 2 inches of leca, followed by a membrane (nylon net curtain, in my case- cheap and easy!), then the substrate. I aim to keep the leca layer damp, at the very least- usually topped up to a few cms- that seems to spread the heat, although the soil is noticably warmer on the mat side. Like anything in this hobby, I can't claim it's the best or only method, just that it works for me.

EDIT: and yes, I noticed that I went from inches to centimetres- it just seemed easier to explain that way, lol!


----------



## Meefloaf

cheers ron, its something i shall consider before my last batch of silicone gets here


----------



## soundstounite

Ron , thanks :notworthy: 

Worth adding something like tin foil as a reflector,or a waste of time?

Joe I always wanted to find stick insects in privet as a kid when living down there,never did though.
My aunty still lives in a house with an enclosed garden and tiny pond,no problems with slugs since that little kid 'erm stocked her pond:blush: What is amazing though is that kids can still see the ramifications of their actions over huge periods of time.It would probably be unwise now to move phibs with RV and chytrid here,but I didn't know this back then,just wanted to help the frogs by giving them an edge. 

Ha ha, simple conservation through a child's eyes uncluttered by what we now know to be reckless.Alot of temporia tads are eaten,therefore rear in captivity release just before morphout,they come out of that pond they hopefully go back to that pond and breed. Keep a few for home and get them further,start new populations and some are still there what 30yrs on...oh if life was so simple now:bash: Hmm I never did get caught slipping quietly into a garden in the dark, where i'd spotted a pond with my bag of frogpoles. It would have made a nice headline though "Small boy arrested for giving people frogs,without permission" :whistling2:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

That's Cornish front page news fella!

I don't get frogs in my garden down here, seen the odd toad, but my pond is swarming with smooth newts. So much so my little niece went to school telling her friends I had dinosaurs in my garden aha! Made her a little tank up to take to school and show the other kids, now the school want me to possibly make up a tank for them and steal some for a pond they'd be making for them as they don't have em. My niece is pretty much mini me, covered in mud, creatures in pockets and I love for dangerous animals lol


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> That's Cornish front page news fella!
> 
> I don't get frogs in my garden down here, seen the odd toad, but my pond is swarming with smooth newts. So much so my little niece went to school telling her friends I had dinosaurs in my garden aha! Made her a little tank up to take to school and show the other kids, now the school want me to possibly make up a tank for them and steal some for a pond they'd be making for them as they don't have em. My niece is pretty much mini me, covered in mud, creatures in pockets and I love for dangerous animals lol


thanks Joe,she'll be a good 'un:no1: 

Getting kids to care showing them these wonders erm which are still wonderful to old folks like moi(us):gasp: is our future and their future and the phibs future all roller into one.i'm very wary now of moving phibs to a new pond, as I've already stated.but maybe an alternative route can be found to show them much of an amphibians life cycle.It might be worth them setting up the pond and letting nature do the rest.BUT also helping them set up a tank for class,often early inspiration lasts for life.

Oh a genuine Cornish headline from the war,a great freind of our's Called Georgie sadly long passed was busted for lamping rabbits in the blackout,he'd kept that paper cutting and showed it me i guess somewhere in the eighties. A fantastic guy taught me lots gave us lots and eventually we got to give back,when he came back home from hos. after a heart attack. The funniest thing was he thought he was in my debt 'cause i'd helped milk a bloody cow while she produced too much milk for her calf and carry abit of hay for his good lady who was def the wrong side of 70. Go figure, he looked out for us for years and wanted nowt back. They don't make em like that now, sorry Joe abit of a ramble ,but it seems like yesterday. I don't think he really got the fact that I loved being with that old redpoll and her calf it was a joy: victory:

Stu


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## Meefloaf

Yup, loved some of the stories my grandad would tell me, was a kid during the war, raced motorbikes all across Europe and even built one for a title winning racer too. They definitely don't make em like they used to.

The missus may be getting worried soon lol. Off down the bank tomoz to see about us getting a mortgage, seen a awesome house, already picked a room for pets lol plus its got a nice workshop. Fun fun fun


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## Ron Magpie

It might have been my birthday weekend, Stu, but there are limits to* how f*ar nostalgia will take me...

I don't see at all why foil shouldn't work- the whole point is to direct the heat inside the vivs, rather than waste it into the air.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> It might have been my birthday weekend, Stu, but there are limits to* how f*ar nostalgia will take me...
> 
> I don't see at all why foil shouldn't work- the whole point is to direct the heat inside the vivs, rather than waste it into the air.


Good luck Joe:2thumb:

Ron please forgive a late night ramble,LMAO, funny reading that in the cold light of day.:whistling2:

Ha ha back to froggies:mf_dribble:.

I'm not get sure whether the RFB kids are being fed yet by mum cem basti.I might try giving her a hand with some eggs from elsewhere. I'm pretty sure a couple of tads are doing the so called feeding dance when they see me peering into their cans,so armed with a pipette and hopefully a steady hand I'm going to attempt to separate yolk from jelly using the robberster.com method i quoted earlier to Terry. Much room for failure here but who knows what I'll learn and that, my friend is the point of it all. 

best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

A quick update,tads have got eggs now from another frog,so called feeding dance is definitely what I'm seeing,no doubts in my mind now it's fabulous tiny tads skimming across the water surface in a sort of frenzy,awesome!! Little tads have already found eggs it took seconds and are trying to feed, sometime shortly a pic will follow. Getting a yolk out of an egg and without breaking it is no mean feat i failed twice before i got a method:bash:.My concerns revolve around whether or not i got rid of enough jelly for tad to access the yolk.I thought i had,but can see the little guys are fighting abit to gain access to the yolk win or loose this is already absorbing and we are already seeing behaviour we haven't seen before
wonderful

Stu


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## soundstounite

A a while back i think i showed a pic of a little mystie,that had morphed out in viv,no idea how long that took it seemed to be there for ever,I know the little fella was feeding. I popped down for a hand wash during our feeding regime early tonight to be regaled by squeals of glee by Shaz . I haven't seen that little fella for ages ,but damn me there he was bouncing around between parents feet nailing Ff like a good 'un,to ruddy quick for a picture though ,but I nearly got it,so maybe soon

RFB tad as promised


Stu


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## Meefloaf

Regarding rock dust, anything I should avoid ? I heard you had to be careful what rocks you put in a frog vivarium. Cheers again Stu


----------



## wilko92

I've not been on rfuk for some time now! And WOW stu as always im very impressed its great stuff reading this thread!  Also the plants i got off you are doing great! 3 brom pups from the one brom and the other has just taken off like crazy! :notworthy: brill stuff


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> Regarding rock dust, anything I should avoid ? I heard you had to be careful what rocks you put in a frog vivarium. Cheers again Stu


See if you can get some granite fines from your local merchant.tis their waste product your looking for mate,comes as a sludge as they cut with water.Dry before use crumble back into dust,colour as required and off ya go,good luck mate

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

wilko92 said:


> I've not been on rfuk for some time now! And WOW stu as always im very impressed its great stuff reading this thread!  Also the plants i got off you are doing great! 3 brom pups from the one brom and the other has just taken off like crazy! :notworthy: brill stuff


G'day Paul,are you well kiddo?

Ha you take credit for them doing well now mate,not I:2thumb:.I just gave you a goodish start.
Cool to hear from you bro,I hope the azzies and the rest are good
best

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

Right lads, soon I shall start my culturing adventure, so here's some questions

Do the tropical woods and springs need heating? My room is about 20/22 during the day and about 17/19 at night. I was thinking of getting a little mini three tier greenhouse to put them in. Would this be okay?


----------



## frogfreak

Meefloaf said:


> Right lads, soon I shall start my culturing adventure, so here's some questions
> 
> Do the tropical woods and springs need heating? My room is about 20/22 during the day and about 17/19 at night. I was thinking of getting a little mini three tier greenhouse to put them in. Would this be okay?


Oh, Oh, I got this one, nope. Room temps are fine. :no1:


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## Meefloaf

Awesome


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> Awesome


Joe just to add to what my young:Na_Na_Na_Na: friend has said,pop the white woods in the warmest place possible.Glenn is spot on from what I know,I just know that provided i don't let them dry out,my woodlice on top of the racks,ie with heat underneath multiply the fastest,which naturally is what your after.Especially as the woodlice are the slowest to bulk up. Gauge your container size to the quantity you buy,don't put them in too big a container at first if you don't buy many...so they have to hunt for each other to breed. 

Oh well done on finding the two culture sections:notworthy:,I'll admit I struggled not so long ago to help a mate out so had to write it all out again couldn't find pics either,this was just before i cottoned on to the search function route.:bash: 

Joe on the subject,of culturing springtails See if you can dig out what Glenn does,his methods are slightly different to mine,he uses a higher grade of yeast,ie nutrional yeast(amongst other stuff) and co co chunks as substrate rather than charcoal,plus his racking set up is way more sophisticated than mine for feeders.I just haven't the space,or I would implement something very similar. He's my mate,we've talked for years,he's humble as they come but a guy that rears the quantity and quality in tincs that he does has to have it wired down tight,much to be learned from him. He won't thank me for this,but I just admire him. The more I slowly learn, the more wisdom I see in his approaches to keeping darts . Naturally I'll knock him back later:2thumb::lol2: 

Again what I'm really trying to offer you is more than one method,each one of us needs to dig out the" grail" for themselves ,if you like. We all have slightly different variables that make different methods work for each of us.

goodonya mate for digging :2thumb:

Stu


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## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Joe ju*st to add to what my young:Na_Na_Na_Na: friend has said,pop the white woods in the warmest place possible*.Glenn is spot on from what I know,I just know that provided i don't let them dry out,my woodlice on top of the racks,ie with heat underneath multiply the fastest,which naturally is what your after.Especially as the woodlice are the slowest to bulk up. Gauge your container size to the quantity you buy,don't put them in too big a container at first if you don't buy many...so they have to hunt for each other to breed.
> 
> Oh well done on finding the two culture sections:notworthy:,I'll admit I struggled not so long ago to help a mate out so had to write it all out again couldn't find pics either,this was just before i cottoned on to the search function route.:bash:
> 
> Joe on the subject,of culturing springtails See if you can dig out what Glenn does,his methods are slightly different to mine,he uses a higher grade of yeast,ie nutrional yeast(amongst other stuff) and co co chunks as substrate rather than charcoal,plus his racking set up is way more sophisticated than mine for feeders.I just haven't the space,or I would implement something very similar. He's my mate,we've talked for years,he's humble as they come but a guy that rears the quantity and quality in tincs that he does has to have it wired down tight,much to be learned from him. He won't thank me for this,but I just admire him. The more I slowly learn, the more wisdom I see in his approaches to keeping darts . Naturally I'll knock him back later:2thumb::lol2:
> 
> Again what I'm really trying to offer you is more than one method,each one of us needs to dig out the" grail" for themselves ,if you like. We all have slightly different variables that make different methods work for each of us.
> 
> goodonya mate for digging :2thumb:
> 
> Stu


My white culture is on top of my corn snake viv, my (much smaller) brown is actually* in *my Asian spiny toad tank at the mo- I am going to have to figure a longer-term, warmish final situation for both.


----------



## Meefloaf

Bloody hell Ron, I read that as final solution!!!! Lol

Cheers Stu, I shall dig it out when I'm not on my phone, cheers for the heads up


----------



## soundstounite

Always a pleasure Joe!!

Guys I'd like you to be aware of this thread,I wasn't really sure whether to post this on it's own,but it seems folks are reading all this,and i might just catch a few dart watchers,that might miss this elsewhere.It is very relevent to darts being primarily about pumillio and possible the best known,the cemetery basti,which is polymorphic,We do keep them by the way,and also have WC,so I'm not judging anyone.JP whose thread it is is very balanced I feel ,so take a look. Might just be worth everyone making an effort to keep more records of their frogs too.
Anyway have a read,my hopes are centered on "just a bad day"!!

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...7-panamanian-dendrobatid-research-2013-a.html


belucky guys

Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

Really sad, phibs in general seem to be getting hit really hard with habitat destruction etc - another couple generations and we will have lost so many species


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> Really sad, phibs in general seem to be getting hit really hard with habitat destruction etc - another couple generations and we will have lost so many species


It is our(the hobby) possibly involvement that bothers me J,but damn right if it is true then very very sad!!

Well that little cem basti,somewhat ironically given what's above,has morphed out fine,when I pulled him just after he popped 4 legs I susbstiuted one of the red frog beach tadpole in his place. To my complete amazement mum cem is feeding said tad. she has laid 3 feeder eggs in there twice now,which has gien me chance to feed all tads. So at this time we have lost 2 tads but remarkably 3 are still alive and growing.Each day now they will get stronger and each day will enhance their chances. I'm utterly amazed to be honest,but this learning curve has been very rewarding so far,and I'd lay abet it will stand me in goes stead for the future,when something goes wrong. 


Hours OOTW cem basti



Pum feeder eggs and blurry tad




Stu


----------



## wilko92

soundstounite said:


> G'day Paul,are you well kiddo?
> 
> Ha you take credit for them doing well now mate,not I:2thumb:.I just gave you a goodish start.
> Cool to hear from you bro,I hope the azzies and the rest are good
> best
> 
> Stu


 Sorry for such the long reply! not long back from egypt :notworthy: The auzzies are doing great still no signs of what sex they are, still got some growing to do though i think! I'll pop a pic or two up here later thats if you dont mind me on your thread with all your greatness! :notworthy: :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Cool,hope it was wicked in Egypt:2thumb:

Yeah pop some pics up mate,I don't mind and folks would love to see them,of that I'm sure

take care

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> It is our(the hobby) possibly involvement that bothers me J,but damn right if it is true then very very sad!!
> 
> Stu


It may well have some effect, Stu, but I honestly think that habitat destruction is the biggest single cause- especially in Madagascar and parts of South America.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> It may well have some effect, Stu, but I honestly think that habitat destruction is the biggest single cause- especially in Madagascar and parts of South America.


Ron I'm in total agreement, habitat loss is a much bigger problem in the big schemeas probably is the spread of diseases such as chytrid.

I was referring to the cemetery bastis specifically.They are a morph that occurs in a place very easy to collect from,so in this case it is a very real possibility that over collection is implicated,That said i'm still hoping that is was just dry and the frogs were being elusive. another guy I've talked to has seen ,(hopefully the same population) very close by,JP is aware of these other frogs now. Doubtless the situation will be monitored at least by the researchers and if I hear anything new, I'll post it up here. 

Ron morphs of pumillio are all grouped together by CITIES under dendrobates pumillio.The morphs that come out of Panama are not regulated as individual morphs for collection,we are in a situation that needs some form of monitoring more closely than what is happening at this time. 

I would hate to be showing you guys pictures of a little frog I've just morphed out that can no longer be found where it is meant to be in the wild,that bothers me Ron.

Most pumillio populations seem to be quite robust,and from what I can find out,there is no problem at all with some collection for our hobby from these robust populations,but some are very small. I know certain morph locations have been kept quiet by researchers to prevent collection,but some of these it seems are now turning up. Tis all about sustainability mate,possibly it might be a good thing to wait a while on these Wc pums untill a better inferstructure is in place. 

What seems very important to me though is that all the dart guys grab the chance to do the best with the WC pums that have come here,both breeding wise and record keeping wise.


Ron, i'm not trying to judge folks,or come over holier than though,Shaz and I have some of these frogs!! What my aim is in posting about this is to make folks aware of a possible situation,that we( the dart hobby) might have some baring on. 

best

Stu


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## Ron Magpie

Didn't think you were for a minute, mate- I'm actually surprised (although I shouldn't be) that specific varieties aren't included- I guess the admin would be a nightmare, though.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Didn't think you were for a minute, mate- I'm actually surprised (although I shouldn't be) that specific varieties aren't included- I guess the admin would be a nightmare, though.


You'll have noted they still call then dendrobates Ron...NOT oophaga:bash:,things are not quite as they should be.. 

Yeah I'm sure the admin is already a complete 'mare,like all systems I guess there are flaws,but with dart frog morphs being what they are,probably on the way to speciation,each morph needs protection and monitoring...each is somewhat unique. But being able to do that logistically when said organisation is trying to monitor all species, on a planet:gasp:hell one can't blame anyone.
They do untold good there is no doubting that!

But naturally it can lead to less than ideal situations,where something as iconic as the polymorphic cemetery basti could potentially be lost,while the Strawberry poison frog(Pumillio) are as a whole is regarded as doing ok,by the powers that be. 

I guess we just don't live in an ideal world mate, 

Stui


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## wilko92

Pics to follow previous posts  goose foot was not long cut back ALOT! cause its a space invador for my broms :lol2: 



Both frogs are this bold... im constantly having to have my hand there so they dont jump out, although they seem to think ima climbing frame at times! :lol2:


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## FrogNick

Any new updates Stu, how are the Summersi doing? You tempted by the import of Parus?


----------



## soundstounite

wilko92 said:


> Pics to follow previous posts  goose foot was not long cut back ALOT! cause its a space invador for my broms :lol2:
> [URL=http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h445/Paul_Wilkie/998007_10151770455720011_243278860_n_zps3597b575.jpg]image[/URL]
> [URL=http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h445/Paul_Wilkie/1069139_10151770455430011_512512606_n_zpsd88a7162.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> Both frogs are this bold... im constantly having to have my hand there so they dont jump out, although they seem to think ima climbing frame at times! :lol2:


Paul sorry mate,i'm pretty damn busy,I meant to reply,but forgot,my humble apologies:blush:. Kiddo they look fantastic as does the viv:no1:

Tell me mate, how old are they now,are they breeding yet,i'm a bit fried mate,just pulled 13 hours,so please forgive if I'm making you repeat yourself,but you must have had them a fair time now,it seems ages ago you came over.
best

Stu


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## wilko92

soundstounite said:


> Paul sorry mate,i'm pretty damn busy,I meant to reply,but forgot,my humble apologies:blush:. Kiddo they look fantastic as does the viv:no1:
> 
> Tell me mate, how old are they now,are they breeding yet,i'm a bit fried mate,just pulled 13 hours,so please forgive if I'm making you repeat yourself,but you must have had them a fair time now,it seems ages ago you came over.
> best
> 
> Stu


 No worrys!  not breeding, brought them 3 months out of water, just worked out i've had them for 1 year and 1 month :shock: where the times gone i dont know! would you say still to early to sex? im sure i've read they take 2 years or so to sexually mature? if not then i would guess both be male, the azuries call is so quite it would be hard to hear it, as theres running water in the viv :bash: :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> Any new updates Stu, how are the Summersi doing? You tempted by the import of Parus?


Hiya Nick,
not a great deal to update folks with at the moment mate. My pum surrogacy experiment is still progressing ok I think,well we still have 3 growing tads,one still behind the other two,but still alive much to my amazement. I have a tank raised mystie,which looks incredibly good,probably a month out of the water now,we fed it twice just after morphout and that's all the help it got. Nick I find this one incredible,that she has got so far,probably 6 months in the water,tis mind boggling,plus a little leuc,also abut to morphout in viv,we'll see how it fairs,then I'll run a theory out that might be applicable,here at least.

Our summersi have done exactly the same thing over and over nick,they lay eggs with no embryos,it's beyond frustrating,it's not mollusc predation,I'm utterly sure on that. I will never part with them,but hopefully at some point,i'd really like to get a couple of UE prs and try and crack this one.They have got quite bold now and I'd adore rearing some,but i fear now it isn't going to happen with these particular frogs. I'm not giving up on them,still cycling up and down,ha ha i don't give up easy .But same phenominum each time they lay,hell I even know roughly when they will lay now,as the female gets so damn big when she's gravid,hey ho.

Some of the Paru are quite appealing ,some not so much. They don't grab me like some of the other morphs of sylvatica do But legit large oophaga are something i've wanted here for along long time. Nick the price is so high that at this time I just can't do it,especially as no guarantee of sex. Damn shame mate, I so want to support WIKIRI, I so want them to succeed. If what i read is true then sustainable harvest habitat protection and even kids getting educated will all come to fruition if WIKIRI succeed. These are fine things that I cherish for both the wild frogs and our hobby. I truely wish all frogs were harvested from the wild along similar lines.

I would imagine they would be fascinating to keep and observe,but £350 stateside turns into £550 in blighty and that just about kills it for me and folks of my financial standing. Don't matter how much passion and drive i have,how much passion for proper legit sustainable frogs,that can actually buy them selves a secure habitat and do other good works like helping kids get education, £1100 for an unsexed pair of frogs is out of reach at this time.

What do you think mate? 

For anyone reading this and is scratching their head with these numbers here's a ramble which might help explain SOME OF!! why so costly.

Wikiri are working out of Ecuador. They are using habitat enhancement to produce a sustainable harvest of large oophaga and other frogs,the proceeds get ploughed back as i've outlined above. Large oophaga are slow producers,hence they will always be expensive.They are highly desired by dart keepers as within the 3(/4 maybe speciosa) collective species are some of the most astoundingly beautiful frogs on the planet. They also show a high degree of parental care,and are not terribly easy to breed,for some anyway. In captivity as in the wild they produce offspring in very low numbers,as one would expect ,all that parental care is for a reason!!! No large oophaga have been legally imported for years,any legal large oophaga in captivity have to be traced back to somewhere in the 90's,at the latest, when the last LEGAL imports from S. America occurred.Hence again their desirability is increased, as genuine legal frogs are so hard to find. Wikiri's (and another organisation Teresos from Colombia) are striving to harvest these frogs on a sustainable basis. These frogs are so desired by the dart hobby,that they have been highly smuggled,this smuggling has lead to some serious over harvesting/stealing of some species and could potentially lead to them being lost from the wild. So one can see why I am so desparate to see these organisations succeed. 

If local folks can see a revenue from some bloody frogs,then they look after the habitat that those frogs occur in,this is all win,frogs win, habitat wins, kids get education rainforest stays in tact:jump::jump::jump::jump::jump: OOORRRAAA .

This is where our hobby can really contribute,this is the way forward, I just wish this price wasn't so exclusive,Wikiri's efforts have been described by better folks than I as monumental,let's hope they succeed.



Stu


----------



## soundstounite

wilko92 said:


> No worrys!  not breeding, brought them 3 months out of water, just worked out i've had them for 1 year and 1 month :shock: where the times gone i dont know! would you say still to early to sex? im sure i've read they take 2 years or so to sexually mature? if not then i would guess both be male, the azuries call is so quite it would be hard to hear it, as theres running water in the viv :bash: :lol2:


Glenn(frogfreak) is probably the best guy to give you an opinion on what age to breed and sex Paul. Not 'cause he's me mate ,but because he has so many tincs and has bloody good eyes. Whether you can hear their call might be down to one's ears mate,ie I probably wouldn't hear them,but Shaz probably would:lol2:,but I can hear a tinc call from a few feet,so I imagine you would hear them call waterfall or no,'cause your eons younger than me:Na_Na_Na_Na: Listen just before lights out
I think we are talking from 18 months mate,but I cannot verify that,we must also factor in male and female possibly maturing at different ages.

Not much help so look at back arches and the usual toe pads for inconclusive proof of sex:2thumb::2thumb::lol2:

Stu


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## FrogNick

yeah i agree with you Stu, there will be more Morphs coming out from these projects I heard that F2 Lehmanni will available at some point, just hope they share there raising secret with us in the hobby.

I do like sylvaticas though san lorenzo or white foots. It's import though whatever frogs they sell can get established within the hobby, as we know there are type that we can't raise at the moment.

Keep at it sometimes it takes years to get good eggs!

Nick


----------



## Draconis

I've just finished reading this thread, and my word it's taken bloody ages! Thoroughly worth reading though, it's genuinely inspiring to track somebody's progress from a self-proclaimed novice (although others disagreed!) to quite the expert. I've never really been into darts, but this thread has really turned that view on it's head. To be honest I was never really into 'phibs (apart from axolotls) until recently when I started lurking this section a bit more! :lol2: Best section on this forum, in my opinion.

I wonder, though, if you'd ever consider looking at other frogs, or maybe even toads (dare I even mention Caudates?)? I know it's 'Da Dart Room', but after reading your enthusiasm and seeing your delight at those Common Toads in your garden millions of posts back, I just wondered if anything other than darts were on the horizon. 

Can't believe the progress mate! :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Draconis said:


> I've just finished reading this thread, and my word it's taken bloody ages! Thoroughly worth reading though, it's genuinely inspiring to track somebody's progress from a self-proclaimed novice (although others disagreed!) to quite the expert. I've never really been into darts, but this thread has really turned that view on it's head. To be honest I was never really into 'phibs (apart from axolotls) until recently when I started lurking this section a bit more! :lol2: Best section on this forum, in my opinion.
> 
> I wonder, though, if you'd ever consider looking at other frogs, or maybe even toads (dare I even mention Caudates?)? I know it's 'Da Dart Room', but after reading your enthusiasm and seeing your delight at those Common Toads in your garden millions of posts back, I just wondered if anything other than darts were on the horizon.
> 
> Can't believe the progress mate! :2thumb:


What's your name kiddo?

Thanks for the above,it's very humbling what you've said THANKYOU !! I'll never be an expert mate, we are just getting more and more experience/learning the ropes,slowly but surely. I'm totally cool with this,I want folks that I'm trying to help to be aware that we've only kept darts for a while and they can peruse this thread and see who is trying to help

I've been told this is the best section privately recently,I think it's because we try to help each other and are man enough to agree to disagree without falling out. Nowt much moves forward when folks shout at each other.

I guess we are like a couple of 4 year olds,we will shout at each other out of windows across the garden when something cool is happening with the darts,it's not contrived,it's a genuine wonder at nature. which means that this wonder is not confined to darts,so we could very easily become enamoured with many phibs. We have chosen to limit ourselves to darts,almost as a way of keeping a check on our selves. The flip side to specialisation means one becomes more adept within the group of species kept, gains more experience,I guess. Although there are very different species within the dart group,there are cross overs that make the learning curve and keeping much easier. I can culture similar food for all, use similar design of vivs etc etc. Evenso,we are almost at a standstill at the moment,while we ponder what we do next and how we go about that...there are alot of dart species to choose from and a plethera of things to think about So no nothing else other than darts for the time being,but it's not that we are not tempted. 

Oh and yeah we had stunning female toad,living under our dustbin for a while this year,I gently moved here somewhere slightly safer,ok a few times:mf_dribble: , but time has been against me,or you would have got more drooling pics,she and her mates are still here and we are constantly being careful where we put our feet at night when outside.
cheers

Stu


----------



## Draconis

The name's Steve. : victory:

To me you seem adept at darts and by the looks of your frogs, cultures, even your plants, you're doing a sterling job regardless. 

As for this section, a LOT of people talk about darts on here, and while I _wasn't_ interested as such in the past, this section has made me very intrigued as has this thread. I think the thing which makes this section different is it seems a bit more friendly and welcoming. Don't get me wrong, the other sections are great too, but this section seems to get less traffic and fewer members, so I guess with fewer people here you get to talk to people more often and so a closer community is formed.

The other sections are great, but being a complete 'phib novice I find myself learning something new all the time here. As you say, people here tend to be willing to accept other people do things differently, and can understand and embrace it, which makes it feel much more like a hobby, rather than feeling like you're back in school!

I understand where you're coming from with the darts specialisation. Certainly I can see the appeal, especially with critters like darts where there are so many different types which make it difficult to get bored.

I would've loved those toad pics too! I remember when I was younger and I'd go looking through the ponds and puddles in Hamsterley Forest or in the Lake District, and the odd outing at night to help make sure frogs crossed the road safely! :lol2:

Now I've caught up with this thread I'll be sure to keep up to date to see what else comes your way. Truly fascinating! :2thumb:


----------



## Meefloaf

a classic example of this section, i posted a few threads in the newbie bit, feeder and habitat, and got nowhere near as much help or 'nice' replies as i have on here. so i post my questions in here. infact, most of the decent replies were from the locals of this section lol


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## frogfreak

There's another section(s)?? :/ :lol2:


----------



## Meefloaf

frogfreak said:


> There's another section(s)?? :/ :lol2:


it's like going down to the river to catch some fish and a bear shows up


----------



## mattbeighton

Meefloaf said:


> it's like going down to the river to catch some fish and a bear shows up


I've had help in the habitats and inverts section in the past, but this section seems more homely.


----------



## ronnyjodes

mattbeighton said:


> I've had help in the habitats and inverts section in the past, but this section seems more homely.


A lot of us phib lot do take the brave big boy step of leaving this section every now and again and it seems we get as far as the planted habitats section and then come running back here lol.


----------



## terryTHEfrog

Draconis said:


> The name's Steve. : victory:
> 
> To me you seem adept at darts and by the looks of your frogs, cultures, even your plants, you're doing a sterling job regardless.
> 
> As for this section, a LOT of people talk about darts on here, and while I _wasn't_ interested as such in the past, this section has made me very intrigued as has this thread. I think the thing which makes this section different is it seems a bit more friendly and welcoming. Don't get me wrong, the other sections are great too, but this section seems to get less traffic and fewer members, so I guess with fewer people here you get to talk to people more often and so a closer community is formed.
> 
> The other sections are great, but being a complete 'phib novice I find myself learning something new all the time here. As you say, people here tend to be willing to accept other people do things differently, and can understand and embrace it, which makes it feel much more like a hobby, rather than feeling like you're back in school!
> 
> I understand where you're coming from with the darts specialisation. Certainly I can see the appeal, especially with critters like darts where there are so many different types which make it difficult to get bored.
> 
> I would've loved those toad pics too! I remember when I was younger and I'd go looking through the ponds and puddles in Hamsterley Forest or in the Lake District, and the odd outing at night to help make sure frogs crossed the road safely! :lol2:
> 
> Now I've caught up with this thread I'll be sure to keep up to date to see what else comes your way. Truly fascinating! :2thumb:



I feel there is a new frogger coming over to the dark side ..... Lol


----------



## soundstounite

Draconis said:


> The name's Steve. : victory:
> 
> To me you seem adept at darts and by the looks of your frogs, cultures, even your plants, you're doing a sterling job regardless.
> 
> As for this section, a LOT of people talk about darts on here, and while I _wasn't_ interested as such in the past, this section has made me very intrigued as has this thread. I think the thing which makes this section different is it seems a bit more friendly and welcoming. Don't get me wrong, the other sections are great too, but this section seems to get less traffic and fewer members, so I guess with fewer people here you get to talk to people more often and so a closer community is formed.
> 
> The other sections are great, but being a complete 'phib novice I find myself learning something new all the time here. As you say, people here tend to be willing to accept other people do things differently, and can understand and embrace it, which makes it feel much more like a hobby, rather than feeling like you're back in school!
> 
> I understand where you're coming from with the darts specialisation. Certainly I can see the appeal, especially with critters like darts where there are so many different types which make it difficult to get bored.
> 
> I would've loved those toad pics too! I remember when I was younger and I'd go looking through the ponds and puddles in Hamsterley Forest or in the Lake District, and the odd outing at night to help make sure frogs crossed the road safely! :lol2:
> 
> Now I've caught up with this thread I'll be sure to keep up to date to see what else comes your way. Truly fascinating! :2thumb:


Hiya Steve,
ha I think alot of us get taken back to childhood by our so called common toad and frogs,similar stuff here to mate.

Steve what has really grabbed me that i wasn't aware of when i started was how bright some darts seem to be,on occassion you can almost see then working something out,we also have frogs interacting with us,again not really something I bargained for. The fact that they are diurnal show parental care in varying degrees means there is always something going on,damn difficult to get bored with these guys,plus on the breeding side multiple small cutches of eggs mean one can learn as one goes,without having all one's eggs in the proverbial single basket. they are both fascinating and addictive to keep.

Good to hear from ya kiddo,always nice seeing new faces here,maybe as Tel says you'll get drawn in to the dark side:lol2:,just don't expect to only have one dart tank,rarely is someone able to only keep one batch of these:whistling2:

best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> yeah i agree with you Stu, there will be more Morphs coming out from these projects I heard that F2 Lehmanni will available at some point, just hope they share there raising secret with us in the hobby.
> 
> I do like sylvaticas though san lorenzo or white foots. It's import though whatever frogs they sell can get established within the hobby, as we know there are type that we can't raise at the moment.
> 
> Keep at it sometimes it takes years to get good eggs!
> 
> Nick


Nick, I think they are raising in situ,by that I mean they are putting extra depo sites in a given habitat and pulling the surplus therin created. I don't know exactly when they pull though,ie what age....presumably at morphout? But we can both rear pums from morphout so maybe they are just doing the same,I don't have details beyond this. Like the WC pums mate getting them esablished and keeping them going will depend on whether our hobby can utilise some form of studbook I guess. Although i don't actually know anyone whom is getting any of these paru in blighty. It will be interesting to see if and when other morphs do arrive,both what they are and how we fair with them,plus what the cost will be. I've heard similar about other morphs being available later aswell.

yeah I won't give up on them summersi mate,how ever long it takes,tis hard though watching all the courtship and then having one's hopes dashed,when there are no embryos in the egg mass,good job i was born optimistic:2thumb: 

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> it's like going down to the river to catch some fish and a bear shows up


Glenn only gets bothered when fishing by a tinc turning up,his tincs are bigger than bears,even those grizzled ones. Folks in his neck of the woods eat bears for breakfast,although I've never understood why they spray their breakfast with pepper spray,I think they are just hard out there Joe:whistling2:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

ronnyjodes said:


> A lot of us phib lot do take the brave big boy step of leaving this section every now and again and it seems we get as far as the planted habitats section and then come running back here lol.


Holy crap, I've never been that brave Jon, i always thought one needed a big gun or a lawyer,to post elsewhere...like the american forms:whistling2:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

could this be the official uniform for going on dendroboard ?


----------



## soundstounite

Nah mate,that's the guy who turns up when someone asks how many phibs can you keep in a 30cm cube,nano thing:whip:....I kid you not:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

Draconis said:


> I've just finished reading this thread, and my word it's taken bloody ages! Thoroughly worth reading though, it's genuinely inspiring to track somebody's progress from a self-proclaimed novice (although others disagreed!) to quite the expert. I've never really been into darts, but this thread has really turned that view on it's head. To be honest I was never really into 'phibs (apart from axolotls) until recently when I started lurking this section a bit more! :lol2: Best section on this forum, in my opinion.
> 
> I wonder, though, if you'd ever consider looking at other frogs, or maybe even toads (dare I even mention Caudates?)? I know it's 'Da Dart Room', but after reading your enthusiasm and seeing your delight at those Common Toads in your garden millions of posts back, I just wondered if anything other than darts were on the horizon.
> 
> Can't believe the progress mate! :2thumb:





Draconis said:


> The name's Steve. : victory:
> 
> To me you seem adept at darts and by the looks of your frogs, cultures, even your plants, you're doing a sterling job regardless.
> 
> As for this section, a LOT of people talk about darts on here, and while I _wasn't_ interested as such in the past, this section has made me very intrigued as has this thread. I think the thing which makes this section different is it seems a bit more friendly and welcoming. Don't get me wrong, the other sections are great too, but this section seems to get less traffic and fewer members, so I guess with fewer people here you get to talk to people more often and so a closer community is formed.
> 
> The other sections are great, but being a complete 'phib novice I find myself learning something new all the time here. As you say, people here tend to be willing to accept other people do things differently, and can understand and embrace it, which makes it feel much more like a hobby, rather than feeling like you're back in school!
> 
> I understand where you're coming from with the darts specialisation. Certainly I can see the appeal, especially with critters like darts where there are so many different types which make it difficult to get bored.
> 
> I would've loved those toad pics too! I remember when I was younger and I'd go looking through the ponds and puddles in Hamsterley Forest or in the Lake District, and the odd outing at night to help make sure frogs crossed the road safely! :lol2:
> 
> Now I've caught up with this thread I'll be sure to keep up to date to see what else comes your way. Truly fascinating! :2thumb:





Meefloaf said:


> a classic example of this section, i posted a few threads in the newbie bit, feeder and habitat, and got nowhere near as much help or 'nice' replies as i have on here. so i post my questions in here. infact, most of the decent replies were from the locals of this section lol





frogfreak said:


> There's another section(s)?? :/ :lol2:


In terms of general frog and newt queries/chat/discussion/sharing info generally, the whole 'Phib section is friendly and sharing. Once in a while, individuals decide to be arses- but they are very much in the minority. For specialist dart info, post here or in Frogfreak (Bruces) pages. For other queries, post pretty much anywhere in the section- someone will pick it up.


----------



## frogfreak

Ron Magpie said:


> the whole 'Phib section is friendly


Well, hell, this place is so friendly, even Colonists are allowed to post and don't get s**t on. :Na_Na_Na_Na: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Ron Magpie

frogfreak said:


> Well, hell, this place is so friendly, even Colonists are allowed to post and don't get s**t on. :Na_Na_Na_Na: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :Na_Na_Na_Na:


We're very tolerant, that way...


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> In terms of general frog and newt queries/chat/discussion/sharing info generally, the whole 'Phib section is friendly and sharing. Once in a while, individuals decide to be arses- but they are very much in the minority. For specialist dart info, post here or in Frogfreak (Bruces) pages. For other queries, post pretty much anywhere in the section- someone will pick it up.


Bruce,would he be that quaint colonial Ron? Have I missed something?

Thanks buddy there might be a genuine mistake here,but I'll take the smile it gave me:2thumb: 

It is a cool little section friendly places are where one learns most methinks

Oh back to darts,fascinating today as I waded through all the springtail cultures,watching the dynamics betixt two male RFB as they tried to win rights to fertilise the eggs that will follow shortly.

I'm becoming concerned over the water holding abilities of some of their broms,I'm starting to ponder whether at some stage i might switch to cans completely. So far they have a choice but prefer broms,so I'm going to watch a while and see how things go.But as their keeper and factoring in the ease of observation,I much prefer film cans,the bastis have been so much easier to look out for I know exactly what's afoot. I've also noted that broms don't seem to do so well once there is oophaga in the viv. I'm not sure of a reason at this time,but over the past few years we have lost few broms,but two in oophaga vivs have just gone south and maybe a couple more will die soon in the rfb viv. This is quite strange as they have all been going along nicely before frogs and that was a long long time while those vivs grew in. I've read about this before,but because we have grown so many broms and had so few problems I thought we might be ok. I would almost lay a bet it has something to do with the frogs,which is weird as they use broms as depo sites in the wild. Maybe not repeatedly, who knows? I wonder whether there is something happening that might in nature prevent parents using the same depo site over and over again,well at least brom wise,that would make some sense I suppose. I've also read it's the feeder eggs that cause this. But I can rule out most other potential( usual) problems that would cause a brom to rot,just from what we have already learnt by doing/growing. It's a right PITA,it's not so much that broms are costly we have lots to replace any losses with ,its the fact that sooner or later this will happen with tads in said brom plus if planted right broms can look cool in a viv.

HHHMMMMM 

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> Well, hell, this place is so friendly, even Colonists are allowed to post and don't get s**t on. :Na_Na_Na_Na: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :Na_Na_Na_Na:


 You'll have to just live with us now Glenn, you're part of the furniture:halo::jump::jump::jump::jump:

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

soundstounite said:


> You'll have to just live with us now Glenn, you're part of the furniture:halo::jump::jump::jump:












:lol2::lol2::lol2:


----------



## Meefloaf

mmm oreo


----------



## Ron Magpie

Oops, sorry Glenn- must have you confused with some other (possibly Australian!) colonial! :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Oops, sorry Glenn- must have you confused with some other (possibly Australian!) colonial! :lol2:


Ahh man I dunno,Shiela seems to take better pic's than Bruce does, :gasp: 

I thought it was a genuine slip Ron,it did make me smile though :2thumb:

Ha ha, he said taking the mick out of himself for awful pictures here's an awful picture,mind damn tricky getting this quick. 



One RFB tad mostly reared by us with a bit of help from mrs cem basti,now with back legs,look I'll make no bones about this I'm still stunned that they are alive.The cut off will probably be morphout, I almost expect problems there,but as so many struggle rearing an oophaga away from the parental home,it will be ages before I'll believe all is well.

Just for the crack a little guy that was found having dropped out of a film can nearly a foot of the ground,stranded on a leaf.I gently popped in him the ditch and let him get on with it,here he is ootw a couple of days and def feeding,we'll help him abit and see how he get's on in viv


night all

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Tank raised leuc ,still going strong...ooorrraaa

Tank raised mystie,hmm looks abit too fat:lol2: OOOORRRAAA

Stone the bloody crows:mf_dribble: surrogate,part helped, red frog beach tads colouring up,one has actually popped two good front legs,the second will follow within a couple of days, the third we'll see. Remember all this shouldn't be happening ,but it bloody is....go figure huh,I'm gonna try for pics tomorrow,but for now we'll just say bring it on and stare and disbelieve,so maybe moods will get 'em or maybe just maybe ..........

Fun this init:mf_dribble:

take care 

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

awesome!


----------



## Cornish-J

time to stop calling yourself a newbie now mate lol


----------



## Ron Magpie

Cornish-J said:


> time to stop calling yourself a newbie now mate lol


It was time a long time ago- but time drifts when you get to Stu's age...


----------



## frogfreak

Congrats, guys!!

Especially, on pums! :no1:


----------



## Draconis

Nice work! :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> time to stop calling yourself a newbie now mate lol


Nah never been a newbie J, forums didn't exist when Stu was a newbie,ha and you weren't even a gleam in your Dad's eye:Na_Na_Na_Na: I just have some semblence of how little I know now and how much more i'll learn and I'm too bloody old to worry about others knowing that:lol2:.

J let me run this by you,what is the absolute best way to rear a tinc.?..How long does it take to learn that? 

I'll part answer this with it's gonna be at least a couple of years to prove out a theory,that's pretty much all I have with dart keeping and I still haven't proved out my hunches as I bred my first tinc around a year back. So damn ain't i got a way to go yet!! 

I took some to a show recently to sell, I got one comment...damn those are big,or words to that effect...over and over we heard that,but in my heart I know i'm not there yet. They(our kids) are F1, I have a true measure to go by
WC adults,I know what size they should be! When my /OUR tinc kids reach their parents size,I can tick that box and move on,but I can't yet,that makes me novice in my eyes.

Ha, I'll put it another way...when one has done it all, when one has stopped learning, when one can advise everyone on everything, when one 's day is no longer filled with wonder because X has just happened and OMG i've seen it all before....... has that guy lost something,something really REALLY special?

So a couple of years a shed load of kids is the start of a learning curve,but in the big scheme tis sweet FA, I guess i'm questing for the big scheme eh?

best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> It was time a long time ago- but time drifts when you get to Stu's age...


Ere you,:Na_Na_Na_Na: what was it we were talking about?:gasp:

:lol2::lol2::lol2:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> Congrats, guys!!
> 
> Especially, on pums! :no1:



Thanks bro...bonkers isn' it:gasp:

Not there yet Glenn,I'm very much scratching my bonce(opps non colonial lingo it means head mate:2thumb as to how and why we have got this far. I think they will morph bro, well 2 anyway,but who knows what will happen next? 

Tell ya what though Glenn,i'm not sure which is the bigger deal the mystie 6 months no food, the luec,dropping a foot to the ground left stranded bone dry on a leaf or the pum malarky...bloody tough call all equally astounding, I have one word to some it up

HOW?

night all

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Chillin...damn it's hot:lol2: So pics.

Story first: Leucs laid, they moved the film can a bit looking after the eggs and when they hatched on little guy just fell out and lay stranded on a dead leaf. so I scooped him up and popped him in the ditch,ahh about two weeks 10days OOTW he looks like this







Dad mystie transported this guy,he's been in the ditch around 6 months and had no help from us,ok at morphout we chucked a zillion springs around him, to get him going. He's growing like a weed. He disappeared for a while,but has been about for a few week now.He has gone through the usual shy stage and now is bold as brass.sat munching springs around 30cm from the lens. Cool little guy !! 








So on to the RFb. One tad was really strong from the off the second is the one most fed by mum cem basti. So she's maybe a day in front. Ha these markings are messing with me abit,only in the fact that they look for all the world like cem kids. Mind, the last lot looked like escodo so i'm just going to have to wait a good while to see what happens. Hmm wonder if I'll get a chance. 

Anyway pics: sorry about quality,










Oh the third is somewhat behind these so wait and see,I didn't want to faff around with him while moving the other two to a tub. They actually morph straight into this rather than being kept with the parents.

bring it on

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

I have a question for you, Stu; relating to our beloved woodlouse cultures! :flrt:

Having finally managed to get the tiny fast brown ones I got from Richie to increase enough to justify setting up a bigger box, I topped it off with some fresh cardboard and nuked rotten wood and leaves, and while I was at it, did the same for our little white friends in their culture. The question is, what do you think about feeding them some used tea leaves, as well as the other stuff? It occured to me that I often use and recommend these for worm cultures, so why not? They are quite acidifying, of course, but thanks to your inspiration I am supplying calcium in the form of cuttlebone, anyway. Just wondered what you thought of it?


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I have a question for you, Stu; relating to our beloved woodlouse cultures! :flrt:
> 
> Having finally managed to get the tiny fast brown ones I got from Richie to increase enough to justify setting up a bigger box, I topped it off with some fresh cardboard and nuked rotten wood and leaves, and while I was at it, did the same for our little white friends in their culture. The question is, what do you think about feeding them some used tea leaves, as well as the other stuff? It occured to me that I often use and recommend these for worm cultures, so why not? They are quite acidifying, of course, but thanks to your inspiration I am supplying calcium in the form of cuttlebone, anyway. Just wondered what you thought of it?


G'day mate,ya good?
Ron a mate and I were pondering iso the other day,these fast buggers seem to not go for food like the whites do,I think they like munching the rotten leaves and wood more. I don't see any major problems with what you are proposing as woodlice eat our waste teabags in the compo bins. I'll pop one simple caviat on this though,wait until you have more than one culture before trying something new:2thumb:...just in case. Last thing you want is to clobber your only culture,because of something we know not about!!!!!

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Guys some of you already know abut the string of events that happened earlier this year,I mentioned several times we took a battering. Alot of it is still hard to talk about,but slowly it is getting easier. What I'm about to post picture wise has direct relevance to one instance and posts that will follow shortly will reveal them selves as time goes on.

So, my dad passed away,while I was dealing with all that sadness and it had various factors that made it really hardcore,my beloved Tank(female Attachibakka) became ill.With what was going on,i was somewhat distracted and treated her without using a vet. This is somewhere I wouldn't normally go ,but I'm sure you all understand, anyway despite everything she died,it broke my bloody heart. I kicked myself about on this as I really felt I could and should have done better. I had a post mortem done ,but eventhough I had fantastic advice the results were inconclusive as to cause of death,it might have just been old age.

I'll go slightly off on one and say regarding PM,if you want a frog autopsied then one needs to get froggy to vet asap after death,the first thing is to cool the passed frog as this slows decomposition,this is so important it's not true,beyond that then speak to a vet.

Not long after that one of the citronella lads prolapsed really badly and also died,over the next few days his friend whom looked a picture of health just stopped eating and also perished,I didn't get a PM done on him,it was just so quick when i found him it was too late to go there,although I' d only been at work decay in a warm dart viv is incredibly quick,hence the importance of the above paragraph.. For all the world it looked like he just gave up when his male friend died.These are the ver first frogs we have lost since we started out,so in the big scheme we have been incredibly lucky.

So eventually we located a female to replace "Tank", the cit viv has been stripped of all plants and then soaked in 10% beech solution,just in case. This was then repeatedly hosed out with tap water and finally washed out with my froggy rainwater,again repeatedly.I'll come back to this another time.

New mrs Attachi did 3 months in isolation/ QT,I would have got fecals done on both but events prevented this. Suffice to say I'm about to introduce our new lass to you in what possibly are the best circumstances one could wish for ,they have been together a while now and today we got to see this,a double transport both male and female carrying tads. I :censor:miss my mates,probably only you nutters appreciate this,but here's to trying to move forward 
"Tiger" and his new lady, well..... doing the do:no1:





and the female,wish us luck guys




night all

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

Congrats guys!! :no1:


----------



## Meefloaf

much love Stu, and congrats : victory:


----------



## soundstounite

Glenn,just a thanks not only for the above,but for the at the time stuff too!! Tis enough you're a bloody great frogger,but a proper mate as well,is very cool,especially to someone on the other side of the ruddy planet. VERY COOL bro!!

Joe cheers mucker:no1: Mate, I'm not sure whether you realise,but normally only tinc males transport tads,to see the above is fairly rare. what's nice is somewhere buried in the depths of this thread,are some pictures of "Tank" carrying. So that might help show just why those pics are so special,to us.

Oh guys a couple of tiny positives,first up the autopsy did reveal a second clear test to Bd(chytrid),so a second clear regarding testing of this nasty, to run along side the tests for RV (ranavirus) and Bd that Dr Nick took his time to organise for us all(thanks Nick).

The second is a bit of info I learned regarding prolapse,there is a treatment for hemorrhoids in humans called prep H. No I wasn't aware having never been afflicted:Na_Na_Na_Na:. This might be useful in the treatment of a minor prolase. 

Now I'm NOT a vet so contact one if a phib has problems,but I feel it's worth you guys being aware of this, as I tend to search for plus points in bad times. I'll repeat seek out a vet for advice,I'm just putting out a heads up.

Stu


----------



## DrNick

I heard of people using Prep H for amphibian prolapses, but to be honest I was never sure if they were joking or not!! Useful to know it's a real option! Thanks!

Nick


----------



## Ron Magpie

Heh, back in the day, I used to use Golden Eye Ointment (as sold for dogs) if my 'phibs developed any eye problems. I've got no clue if it's even sold anymore, but it seemed to do the trick!


----------



## soundstounite

DrNick said:


> I heard of people using Prep H for amphibian prolapses, but to be honest I was never sure if they were joking or not!! Useful to know it's a real option! Thanks!
> 
> Nick


 Beth clued me up Nick, I don't think she was being anything other than serious.
She's watched my back on more than one occasion with health matters,she takes this stuff pretty seriously! There is the added factor I'm so soft about these frogs, I can't believe she would mess around on this, as she knows that. 

Ha kiddo the thanks are mine:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

good morning S&S

just wanted to ask a few nosy questions if possible, we all know this hobby is both rewarding and also can be emotional and not to mention hard work. keeping these things are not like getting a dog, rabbit or hamster and there is many people out there that don't understand how much work they will be....

I have a growing collection (growing slowly so I can keep up with demand on both time and food) and yes even I under estimated the time needed to invest in all the extra activities and homework. 

so on to my question.... how many frogs have you currently got in Da DART ROOM? and how much time per week would you say needs to go into keeping this collection / hobby possible? feeding, new cultures, more research, plant cuttings, observations 

thanks 

D


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> good morning S&S
> 
> just wanted to ask a few nosy questions if possible, we all know this hobby is both rewarding and also can be emotional and not to mention hard work. keeping these things are not like getting a dog, rabbit or hamster and there is many people out there that don't understand how much work they will be....
> 
> I have a growing collection (growing slowly so I can keep up with demand on both time and food) and yes even I under estimated the time needed to invest in all the extra activities and homework.
> 
> so on to my question.... how many frogs have you currently got in Da DART ROOM? and how much time per week would you say needs to go into keeping this collection / hobby possible? feeding, new cultures, more research, plant cuttings, observations
> 
> thanks
> 
> D



Hi Dane,mate this is something i've been thinking of talking about in detail for a while. not really just time,but the practicalities of slowly building a collection and also being one step in front of what one is doing.

We are trying to progress in stages really Dane:

We started this very slowly 2 years before frogs,then got the first lot(leucs) made sure they were ok,then got quite a few more very quickly. Some of those bred for us,so we hit that hard for a while and then pretty much stopped buying or breeding anything completely. We Added in some oophaga, the oophaga do their thing sure ,but numbers are low and quantity of food is small,so they are little work. 

Once things started breeding I needed to answer some personal questions,such as how many could we rear physically without being stupid of coarse.But the only real way to know one can rear say 20 tincs to adulthood is to do it. Sure some of them go off to new homes earlier than this,but one really needs to know when one has to stop setting eggs way before thing get out of control and one doesn't have time to do the job properly. Or the capacity for time to feed them properly,especially the bigger frogs and especially tincs. The most difficult thing for a novice like us to a large collection and new to breeding is guessing how many eggs = how many tads,especially if one sees sls early on and then that disappears, and being aware of the fact that one can achieve few losses.I thought we would loose way more than we do. We set one batch of superblues last year two clutches laid on the same day,that gave 16 froglets if I remember right all reared .So anyone really needs to take on board what the larger dendros are capable of when setting eggs

How a collection is made up(what species are kept) will probably dictate how much time goes into care and food.If one keeps lots of the larger frogs they will take alot more work...much more,than the same number of rani or oophaga.one must also factor in the age at which one feels comfy parting with them. 
I guess we have somewhere around 100 frogs at this time,we probably spend 2/3hours a day on them,but that is really difficult to assertain,both because there are two of us and I'm bloody chaotic.but numbers are almost irrelevent it is the species of frog and age that dictate workload

Dane,let me try and illustate that.Dropping back to tincs,keeping these frogs on abit longer than say 4 months is a real eye opener. I really want to know if we can achieve the same size as parents (roughly a two year task) and try and develop the best method for us on a personal level of doing that.Everything is pointing at this time to really really low stocking densities,essentially i'm leaning towards getting them down to one per tub as they are brought up to maturity. Utterly different than say rearing some leucs of similar age. The food (and hence workload) those tincs eat is probably the same as all the other frogs put together.Incidentally, I have always thought food/diet was the biggest factor in why tincs are often smaller than their WC bretheren,but by doing(and talking to Glenn) my views are changing to the above being equally important. Thing is there is only one way to learn this...by doing!! 

So as a guy learning all this i think the master plan needs to be get so far,stop dead for a goodly while,work out the implications of each stage,then hit the next bit hard,then stop again,constantly reassessing how the collection is growing and what one can cope with personally. Work it up slowly in stages mate. 

Possibly the best method is to always ask yourself can i feed X frogs day in day out.Then build that feeder stock before setting the eggs,or buying more frogs. That way you should always be a couple of months in front and if one hasn't time to look after the food,then one hasn't time to rear and one doesn't set eggs or buy more frogs. Almost a safe guard to out doing oneself 

Tis really difficult to give specifics mate as no collection is identical,but always better to be massively in front,than playing catch up becuase one has too much

I haven't focused much on observation,that's the treat the reason for it all,god knows how long we spend just looking,best not go there:2thumb:

Any help or mad ramble:lol2::

Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> Hi Dane,mate this is something i've been thinking of talking about in detail for a while. not really just time,but the practicalities of slowly building a collection and also being one step in front of what one is doing.
> 
> We are trying to progress in stages really Dane:
> 
> We started this very slowly 2 years before frogs,then got the first lot(leucs) made sure they were ok,then got quite a few more very quickly. Some of those bred for us,so we hit that hard for a while and then pretty much stopped buying or breeding anything completely. We Added in some oophaga, the oophaga do their thing sure ,but numbers are low and quantity of food is small,so they are little work.
> 
> Once things started breeding I needed to answer some personal questions,such as how many could we rear physically without being stupid of coarse.But the only real way to know one can rear say 20 tincs to adulthood is to do it. Sure some of them go off to new homes earlier than this,but one really needs to know when one has to stop setting eggs way before thing get out of control and one doesn't have time to do the job properly. Or the capacity for time to feed them properly,especially the bigger frogs and especially tincs. The most difficult thing for a novice like us to a large collection and new to breeding is guessing how many eggs = how many tads,especially if one sees sls early on and then that disappears, and being aware of the fact that one can achieve few losses.I thought we would loose way more than we do. We set one batch of superblues last year two clutches laid on the same day,that gave 16 froglets if I remember right all reared .So anyone really needs to take on board what the larger dendros are capable of when setting eggs
> 
> How a collection is made up(what species are kept) will probably dictate how much time goes into care and food.If one keeps lots of the larger frogs they will take alot more work...much more,than the same number of rani or oophaga.one must also factor in the age at which one feels comfy parting with them.
> I guess we have somewhere around 100 frogs at this time,we probably spend 2/3hours a day on them,but that is really difficult to assertain,both because there are two of us and I'm bloody chaotic.but numbers are almost irrelevent it is the species of frog and age that dictate workload
> 
> Dane,let me try and illustate that.Dropping back to tincs,keeping these frogs on abit longer than say 4 months is a real eye opener. I really want to know if we can achieve the same size as parents (roughly a two year task) and try and develop the best method for us on a personal level of doing that.Everything is pointing at this time to really really low stocking densities,essentially i'm leaning towards getting them down to one per tub as they are brought up to maturity. Utterly different than say rearing some leucs of similar age. The food (and hence workload) those tincs eat is probably the same as all the other frogs put together.Incidentally, I have always thought food/diet was the biggest factor in why tincs are often smaller than their WC bretheren,but by doing(and talking to Glenn) my views are changing to the above being equally important. Thing is there is only one way to learn this...by doing!!
> 
> So as a guy learning all this i think the master plan needs to be get so far,stop dead for a goodly while,work out the implications of each stage,then hit the next bit hard,then stop again,constantly reassessing how the collection is growing and what one can cope with personally. Work it up slowly in stages mate.
> 
> Possibly the best method is to always ask yourself can i feed X frogs day in day out.Then build that feeder stock before setting the eggs,or buying more frogs. That way you should always be a couple of months in front and if one hasn't time to look after the food,then one hasn't time to rear and one doesn't set eggs or buy more frogs. Almost a safe guard to out doing oneself
> 
> Tis really difficult to give specifics mate as no collection is identical,but always better to be massively in front,than playing catch up becuase one has too much
> 
> I haven't focused much on observation,that's the treat the reason for it all,god knows how long we spend just looking,best not go there:2thumb:
> 
> Any help or mad ramble:lol2::
> 
> Stu


Stu thanks for the detailed reply, yes i know exactly what you mean i have just over 25 frogs and some of these i have had for a while and some bought recently, my collection has taken over the 24 months to get to this size so i move at a slow rate...

i also have some form of OCD which helps as i have more food cultures than needed and also excess plants ... for some odd reason i still buy the same things if i go to dart frog i will buy plants and food even though i have no real need for them i get them "just in case i wake up and there all dead" 

ill never forget standing in a large pet shop close to me and the sales assistant telling a couple that frogs are so easy to keep and on average will take no more then 10 mins a day to look after ... i almost fell over i spend more then that fishing out woods each morning and this is one of the reasons for my question its not entirely for me to see how a more experienced fellow hobbyist keeps bigger number then me... its also for any new keepers to understand its a dedicated time consuming hobby :2thumb:

thanks again for all your knowledge mate


----------



## frogfreak

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> i also have some form of OCD which helps as i have more food cultures than needed


That is a very good thing my friend. I could never culture "just enough food" I'd have nightmare's!! :gasp: 

We culture *way* more food than is required too! I'm usually in a position to help out a fellow frogger in need and it's generally someone new to the hobby, experiencing their first fly crash. Ahhh, the first crash...that's one lesson nobody forgets! :censor:


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

frogfreak said:


> That is a very good thing my friend. I could never culture "just enough food" I'd have nightmare's!! :gasp:
> 
> We culture *way* more food than is required too! I'm usually in a position to help out a fellow frogger in need and it's generally someone new to the hobby, experiencing their first fly crash. Ahhh, the first crash...that's one lesson nobody forgets! :censor:


yes I was lucky I had my 1st crash when I only had 1 frog so it was a little easier for me to take.... I have a few crashes now but have enough cultures on the go like stu always says "its a learning curve" by god its a steep curve..... 

its great fun though part of the buzz


----------



## ronnyjodes

I had a few of my cultures get interfered with by house flies- the whole lot went out of the window... literally. It's alway best to be prepared in case something goes tits up


----------



## Meefloaf

people at work always asking me if i've got my frogs yet, okay i had the first build mishap (learning's so much fun:flrt: lol), got this one done and planted up, now i'm waiting for those guys to bed in. The stage i'm at now, sorting out the food for them, as many on here have said, it's better to be ahead than wake up one morning and having to panic ship in some food

although i'm still pondering the finer details of food for my milkies, i'd like to get soldier flies on tap, alas it involves a bucket of rotting food lol


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Hi Dane,mate this is something i've been thinking of talking about in detail for a while. not really just time,but the practicalities of slowly building a collection and also being one step in front of what one is doing.
> 
> We are trying to progress in stages really Dane:
> 
> We started this very slowly 2 years before frogs,then got the first lot(leucs) made sure they were ok,then got quite a few more very quickly. Some of those bred for us,so we hit that hard for a while and then pretty much stopped buying or breeding anything completely. We Added in some oophaga, the oophaga do their thing sure ,but numbers are low and quantity of food is small,so they are little work.
> 
> Once things started breeding I needed to answer some personal questions,such as how many could we rear physically without being stupid of coarse.But the only real way to know one can rear say 20 tincs to adulthood is to do it. Sure some of them go off to new homes earlier than this,but one really needs to know when one has to stop setting eggs way before thing get out of control and one doesn't have time to do the job properly. Or the capacity for time to feed them properly,especially the bigger frogs and especially tincs. The most difficult thing for a novice like us to a large collection and new to breeding is guessing how many eggs = how many tads,especially if one sees sls early on and then that disappears, and being aware of the fact that one can achieve few losses.I thought we would loose way more than we do. We set one batch of superblues last year two clutches laid on the same day,that gave 16 froglets if I remember right all reared .So anyone really needs to take on board what the larger dendros are capable of when setting eggs
> 
> How a collection is made up(what species are kept) will probably dictate how much time goes into care and food.If one keeps lots of the larger frogs they will take alot more work...much more,than the same number of rani or oophaga.one must also factor in the age at which one feels comfy parting with them.
> I guess we have somewhere around 100 frogs at this time,we probably spend 2/3hours a day on them,but that is really difficult to assertain,both because there are two of us and I'm bloody chaotic.but numbers are almost irrelevent it is the species of frog and age that dictate workload
> 
> Dane,let me try and illustate that.Dropping back to tincs,keeping these frogs on abit longer than say 4 months is a real eye opener. I really want to know if we can achieve the same size as parents (roughly a two year task) and try and develop the best method for us on a personal level of doing that.Everything is pointing at this time to really really low stocking densities,essentially i'm leaning towards getting them down to one per tub as they are brought up to maturity. Utterly different than say rearing some leucs of similar age. The food (and hence workload) those tincs eat is probably the same as all the other frogs put together.Incidentally, I have always thought food/diet was the biggest factor in why tincs are often smaller than their WC bretheren,but by doing(and talking to Glenn) my views are changing to the above being equally important. Thing is there is only one way to learn this...by doing!!
> 
> So as a guy learning all this i think the master plan needs to be get so far,stop dead for a goodly while,work out the implications of each stage,then hit the next bit hard,then stop again,constantly reassessing how the collection is growing and what one can cope with personally. Work it up slowly in stages mate.
> 
> Possibly the best method is to always ask yourself can i feed X frogs day in day out.Then build that feeder stock before setting the eggs,or buying more frogs. That way you should always be a couple of months in front and if one hasn't time to look after the food,then one hasn't time to rear and one doesn't set eggs or buy more frogs. Almost a safe guard to out doing oneself
> 
> Tis really difficult to give specifics mate as no collection is identical,but always better to be massively in front,than playing catch up becuase one has too much
> 
> I haven't focused much on observation,that's the treat the reason for it all,god knows how long we spend just looking,best not go there:2thumb:
> 
> Any help or mad ramble:lol2::
> 
> Stu


Lol, that's two questions I always get asked: 1) How much time does it take to look after them? (answer: as long as it takes!) and 2) How much does it cost to heat/feed them? (answer: pretty much the same; it costs what it costs!). I really don't break it down in that way, but my electricity bill is not that huge, and frankly, when it gets to the lean end of the month, I use a lot more wild-caught inverts as food in any case. With the possible exception of cleaning out the turtles (a job I *hate*! :devil I really don't see the day-to-day maintenance as work, just stuff I do in passing. So I probably don't give very satisfying answers! :lol2:


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

Ron Magpie said:


> Lol, that's two questions I always get asked: 1) How much time does it take to look after them? (answer: as long as it takes!) and 2) How much does it cost to heat/feed them? (answer: pretty much the same; it costs what it costs!). I really don't break it down in that way, but my electricity bill is not that huge, and frankly, when it gets to the lean end of the month, I use a lot more wild-caught inverts as food in any case. With the possible exception of cleaning out the turtles (a job I *hate*! :devil I really don't see the day-to-day maintenance as work, just stuff I do in passing. So I probably don't give very satisfying answers! :lol2:


yes ron i totally agree and im the same if I sit back and work out how much I spend with my frogs and reps its a lot im always in there faffing about and the cost pffft i just need to look at the OH face to tell me my hobby cost a bleeding fortune 

the thing I find is a lot of people out there like to have such fancy pets as a show piece for example pedigree dogs that can fit into a handbag and they don't know how much time a dog will take...... with frogs i guess we are lucky we can go to work and they done pine for us 

but i think its important that people coming onto the hobby fully understand the demands and time these frogs take coz lets be honest its not a 10-30 minute job, and if anyone is thinking of entering the hobby the 1st thread they will read (or be told to look at) will be this one... just as i did

hence the questions and im always wanting to know how other keep 50-100 or even 300 frogs... I visited dart frog again at the weekend and Marc must have over 300 frogs and that's a full time job

hard graft = great reward


----------



## Meefloaf

right el Stu, about these J Cloths for vents and wood, i've got some applewood in the garden would that be okay if washed and nuked ? i do have dogs out there


----------



## soundstounite

ronnyjodes said:


> I had a few of my cultures get interfered with by house flies- the whole lot went out of the window... literally. It's alway best to be prepared in case something goes tits up


Before I attempt the more serious stuff.Jon, this had me in stiches,yeah I know I'm abit strange but I'm singularly not sure the words interfered with and that picture of the lads should ever be in the same place:gasp:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf




----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> right el Stu, about these J Cloths for vents and wood, i've got some applewood in the garden would that be okay if washed and nuked ? i do have dogs out there


Boil the wood Joe, one would hope that would knock out anything,i'm sure there is some oocyst or something that could possibly survive,but that is where i would go it's what i do with the plum wood we use for woodlice.
Tesco value J cloths NOT proper J cloths for wood lice vents attach with insulation tape,3L tubs morrisons £1. use FF mesh behind the blue cloths joe for GO,or for all if ya want,the GO will eventually eat that aswell,hence the stainless mesh white are good at escape to so hell do all,I do this now with all new cultures of iso.

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> image


I'm trying to concentrate:Na_Na_Na_Na: Glenn has nightmares about not culturing enough I simply don't sleep if i wonder about that,now this image will haunt me me for eons...mind I bet a terrib would eat that:gasp:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

haha, cheers Stu, shall get their little hotels ready for em


----------



## frogfreak

soundstounite said:


> Glenn has nightmares about not culturing enough I simply don't sleep if i wonder about that


I said, I would have nightmares culturing "just enough" :Na_Na_Na_Na: 

I sleep like a baby, except for the odd "AC failure" nightmare! :gasp: :lol2:


----------



## Ron Magpie

frogfreak said:


> I said, I would have nightmares culturing "just enough" :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> *I sleep like a baby, except for the odd "AC failure" nightmare! *:gasp: :lol2:


Visions of Glenn curled up with his teddybear and his thumb in his mouth...:flrt:


----------



## frogfreak

Ron Magpie said:


> Visions of Glenn curled up with his teddybear and his thumb in his mouth...:flrt:


lmao! :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> Stu thanks for the detailed reply, yes i know exactly what you mean i have just over 25 frogs and some of these i have had for a while and some bought recently, my collection has taken over the 24 months to get to this size so i move at a slow rate...
> 
> i also have some form of OCD which helps as i have more food cultures than needed and also excess plants ... for some odd reason i still buy the same things if i go to dart frog i will buy plants and food even though i have no real need for them i get them "just in case i wake up and there all dead"
> 
> ill never forget standing in a large pet shop close to me and the sales assistant telling a couple that frogs are so easy to keep and on average will take no more then 10 mins a day to look after ... i almost fell over i spend more then that fishing out woods each morning and this is one of the reasons for my question its not entirely for me to see how a more experienced fellow hobbyist keeps bigger number then me... its also for any new keepers to understand its a dedicated time consuming hobby :2thumb:
> 
> thanks again for all your knowledge mate


Dane I think most of us suffer from obsessive culturing disorder:blush: like Glenn i couldn't sleep without knowing we had backup,let alone nightmares. Actually mate,I wonder whether the need to culture with darts is why they will always be a niche hobby. There are other parameters that I find interesting too within the hobby itself that maybe has something to do with food. Have you noticed how "we" start out with so called beginner frogs(I hate the phrase) then get into smaller and more so called advanced frogs. How much of that I sometimes wonder is a hobbiest learning that keeping and feeding little frogs is much less time consuming that a heard of tincs or auratus. I've repeatedly seen tincs given up and the guy then gets some rani or oophaga. Behaviour is no less interesting,so why gravitate to smaller frogs and let the bigger guys go?...just rambling provoking thought,might be cobblers,but worth putting out there

Glenn or anyone else with more than a few frogs can you add anything to Danes question,have I missed out anything important,that would help newer guys than us?

I have one other thing to add,which I missed earlier to do with new food cultures,this might also seem almost silly,but QT them,ie keep them away from what you already have going on. I am learning the hard way through not being thorough enough.

We ran from just two starter cultures of ff for the first couple of years. Last autumn I bought some new types of ff,wanting greater backup,not really a nutritional thing ,but a numbers game. With them came a very large mite,Shaz has fought with that blighter for ages now. I need a specific size of mesh to separate these buggers from the flies, via the dusting method. I think finally we have it,but the effort and time to get over a stupid error on my part has been huge. The mite is of a size that adults almost drop though the same size mesh as mels. I've not lets any ff away from here since this happened, which is a ruddy pain too as Glenn said it's nice to be able to help a new guy here and there. So becareful out there guys learn from my cockup.Mites are said to be always in ff and we all use damage limitation so things don't get out of hand. I don't think all mites are equal. They are almost always there ,but this one has been a real pain to deal with not like the other smaller ones,that have had little consequence to our culturing

My thoughts are still centered around buying in as little as possible feeder wise and working our butts of with those for just this reason , learn from this folks. We haven't yet had our real big ff disaster,but we have come closer than i would like with this,It's not that we don't have backup it is the amount of time and extra effort getting through this that i'm kicking myself for. It was totally avoidable if I had just been abit more careful. Plus, we had two strains of fly that had been here for yonks. those ff were inbred to hell,but they both had essentially been selectively bred for our particular culturing regime,if we loose either it will possibly take years to get back up to their level of production,for our particular circumstances.

What a dummy huh:bash::bash::bash:

Dane, loving the motives behind you're post,as above I'd love some other contributions for new guys if anyone has anything to offer.

thanks mate,always welcome and always wishing I had more knowledge to pass forward
cheers

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> I said, I would have nightmares culturing "just enough" :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> I sleep like a baby, except for the odd "AC failure" nightmare! :gasp: :lol2:


Ron:no1:
Glenn you know better than to be picky with my words:2thumb:...half the time I don't know what I mean let alone anyone else:blah::blah::blah:

When I talk to you two Shaz keeps asking why I'm laughing all the time,bloody Joe don't help neither:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

soundstounite said:


> When I talk to you two Shaz keeps asking why I'm laughing all the time,bloody Joe don't help neither


...and Laura loves it when I burst out laughing when reading on the comp!! :lol2:


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Ron:no1:
> Glenn you know better than to be picky with my words:2thumb:...half the time I don't know what I mean let alone anyone else:blah::blah::blah:
> 
> When I talk to you two Shaz keeps asking why I'm laughing all the time,bloody Joe don't help neither:2thumb:
> 
> Stu





frogfreak said:


> ...and Laura loves it when I burst out laughing when reading on the comp!! :lol2:


The boyf just sighs- he knows I have a warped sense of humour!


----------



## Meefloaf

reckon this do for mesh stu ?need some to do exo top aswell http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fine-Aluminium-Mesh-Wire-Modelling/dp/B003J7JBB0/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1377003553&sr=8-16&keywords=mesh+roll


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> reckon this do for mesh stu ?need some to do exo top aswell http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fine-Aluminium-Mesh-Wire-Modelling/dp/B003J7JBB0/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1377003553&sr=8-16&keywords=mesh+roll


Joe,can you give me exact size/s that you want ie overal size,I buy big rolls of mesh as I build our vivs tubs etc,so I have what you need here,but might be able to save you a bit plus cut to exactly what you want,I think I hinted at that before:2thumb: not trying for a sale mate,matters not ,but def trying to help:Na_Na_Na_Na: god knows on p&p but might be able to bung it in with the other stuff
Bro pm us on it, not really my style to sell stuff here,this is where we learn froggy things and Glenn shows us his teddy's:flrt: But it would be rude to ignore your post:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> not really my style to sell stuff here,this is where we learn froggy things and *Glenn shows us his teddy's*:flrt: But it would be rude to ignore your post:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> Stu


It made me feel all warm and fuzzy to see Glenn's teddy.


----------



## ronnyjodes

Ron Magpie said:


> It made me feel all warm and fuzzy to see Glenn's teddy.


If Glenn posts himself _wearing_ a teddy we may have found a new picture of the month winner to put on the main page of the forum.............


----------



## Ron Magpie

ronnyjodes said:


> If Glenn posts himself _wearing_ a teddy we may have found a new picture of the month winner to put on the main page of the forum.............


Teddy* bear*, you pervy person! :devil:


----------



## soundstounite

I just knew as I posted I was in for a world of pain before the day was out....or leastways someone was:lol2:,

If you two behave((well that's a waste of time),but be good and I'll show ya both something really small:mf_dribble: Hell I'm going to double post it now just for the hell of it
Here ya go lads one tiny basti tad,I'm sure under 24 hours in the water,sorry about the pic so damn difficult getting a shot of a tad underwater in a bloody film can,could of done with a bit more light 



best

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> I just knew as I posted I was in for a world of pain before the day was out....or leastways someone was:lol2:,
> 
> If you two behave((well that's a waste of time),but be good and I'll show ya both something really small:mf_dribble: Hell I'm going to double post it now just for the hell of it
> Here ya go lads one tiny basti tad,I'm sure under 24 hours in the water,sorry about the pic so damn difficult getting a shot of a tad underwater in a bloody film can,could of done with a bit more light
> 
> http://s739.photobucket.com/user/soundstounite/media/Da frog Room/IMG_5138_zps2acfc4a7.jpg.htmlimage
> 
> best
> 
> Stu


Not often I get a pic of something small that I can't resist (sorry, Stu, still in childish mode for a sec) but WOW! It really is inspirational to see the stuff you are achieving, mate- as I've said oodles of times before, you demonstrate what can be done with time, knowledge and dedication.


----------



## Meefloaf




----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Not often I get a pic of something small that I can't resist (sorry, Stu, still in childish mode for a sec) but WOW! It really is inspirational to see the stuff you are achieving, mate- as I've said oodles of times before, you demonstrate what can be done with time, knowledge and dedication.


We would be nowhere without equally mad froggy friends to help us along with support advice kindness an' more than a fair smattering of madness:no1:

Ron bastis are a biggish pum,ponder how small an escudo tad just hatched must be,that little chap's body(above) must be somewhere around the 2mm mark. Tis just wonderful to see all this stuff,one can't help but be filled with wonder by it mate.

thanks bro 

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

Best of luck with him, Stu!


----------



## Ron Magpie

It really doesn't matter how common or rare- the whole 'magic' of metamorphosis gets me every time! :2thumb:


----------



## frogfreak

Ron Magpie said:


> It really doesn't matter how common or rare- the whole 'magic' of metamorphosis gets me every time! :2thumb:


100% Ron. It will never get old and is one of the reasons I :flrt: this hobby!


----------



## soundstounite

I'm with you both,it is and will always be bewildering. Ron we almost get a double whammy as dart keepers with the onset of meta,because we get the amazing colour as a bonus. But you are right, seeing our natives change is equally appealing. For me even more special as Shaz had never seen any of this.

She has now though:2thumb:

OOORRRAAA for da froshe hey lads:notworthy:

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

I think the first ones I raised 'all the way' (cue joke!) were Eurasian green toads, in Iran at the age of six or seven. No matter how many times I see it, in whatever species, it never stops being amazing.


----------



## soundstounite

Ha ha nostalgia Ron ?:2thumb:
we can't get away from it mate:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Stu


----------



## Harbinger

Thats one of the things thats attracting me to breed them now, aswell as helping the captive numbers i spent my whole childhood rearing tadpoles at every available opportunity, i cant wait to see it with exotic species.


----------



## soundstounite

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Thats one of the things thats attracting me to breed them now, aswell as helping the captive numbers i spent my whole childhood rearing tadpoles at every available opportunity, i cant wait to see it with exotic species.


Which ever morph species you breed mate,I think you'll get one hell of alot out of it,it's not just the fascination with the above,but it's all the courtship and breeding behaviour, watering tads/tadpole on backs,even in some species different calls,almost some form of rudimentary vocabulary during courtship,just so absorbing to observe.

There is just so much going on in these frogs,so much more than what one first contemplates...who would have thought all this from a glass box with frogs in:no1:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

A good while back I set some epiweb moss mix on some ecoearth,at one stage it dried out, I got caught by the first fern which lifted the cling film I utilized to keep humidity up anyway this is what it looks like now




one can simply grub bits out and transplant to the next viv,I really like the effect of seedlings starting to take on bits of wood



We have also been trialing some of the blackjungle sheet moss we grabbed 3 squares and trialed them on peat ecoearth and a mix of the two,initally it looked like the mix would work best,but ecoearth seems by far best suited to growing this moss,the peat seems just to acidic so that was pulled and put on some oak in a new viv,time will tell if this works.
Here's the eco our best result


mix nowhere near so good



The heart fern, Hermionitis artolia,if kept at the right humidity will put out new plants from the base of a leaf. These have also been popped into a new viv,some do better than others here are a couple just starting to take hold

not so good but still alive


this one doing better,this is a def way to make more plants of this species,I haven't pics to hand ,but I have proved this out

planty tips over :Na_Na_Na_Na:

As I've already mentioned we lost our cits you can go back for details I'm not going to dwell on that too hard. But we then needed to start over. We ripped out all plants,subs etc burnt them and dried the viv out completely. Next step was to soak the viv in 10% bleech. After this we hosed her down really thoroughly with tap water,I'm talking thorough!! the viv was again left to dry,after this we washed her down repeatedly with the water we use for our frogs,reinstalled the viv and again let her dry out and left alone for a month. A completely dry viv will kill BD I'm told. So worth putting that out there even if in no way do I think this is a problem,we have negative tests to back that!
So here is that viv two years or so after being constructed,they epoxy rockoflex method seems to have held up really well,some of the covering has been munched by woodlice ,but beyond that evrything is pretty sound


another pic from further away



We are just about to start planting now I guess two months or so from strip down,I'm really hoping we have done enough to feel safe about new occupants,which will inhabit this viv 

oh better get a froggy in eh?
macheto male


take care

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

epiweb seems to be doing really well there fella, was tempted by the kyoto aswell myself

as for the viv, it has held up rather well after all that cleaning


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> epiweb seems to be doing really well there fella, was tempted by the kyoto aswell myself
> 
> as for the viv, it has held up rather well after all that cleaning


Probably not enough moss ,Joe,but I freely admit I let the side down,by that dry period,simply took my eye off the ball.But moss takes time with epiweb methinks so the battle is not yet lost.

The methods I started using were almost untried here mate,when this was built. used in Europe sure ,but not here. So the one factor I couldn't predict was how this method would hold up over long periods of time...ie years. So looking beyond the cleaning it has faired pretty well dude. The cleaning regime had to be thorough Joe or a complete waste of time. It's a two fold process,one using nasty stuff ie bleach and then being completely sure one has got rid of it all. The biggest factor with bleach though is it's half life is very short,so with proper clensing ,this should be safe for phibs again and no nasty chemicals to harm the frogs. It seems very possible that other chenicals might leave residues,that's why I have chosen this method to sterilize. I won't know until frogs are inhabiting if all is well,but we use this method for cleaning out kids tubs after they go to new homes and haven't suffered problems yet ,with the next inhabitants.So I'm as confident as I can be.

Joe a good while back when Glenn started to post here in blighty he noticed how we"brit hobby" sell planted vivs once we have unloaded the frogs,in the states and Canada those planted,previously inhabited vivs would be worthless.No one would touch them with a friggin barge pole. It makes one stop and ponder,what problems do the new frogs pick up. I'm no fan of sterile everything,but I think we need to take some steps to safeguard the new guys. So that's the reasoning behind why I've gone through this. I guess some would advise a complete strip down as the only safe way to be sure. My thoughts tend to be along the lines of if every surface has been soaked(with bleach) and then properly clensed,all should be ok. 
best

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

I notice again, the Stu-like attention to detail- if you are going to do it, you will do it, do it slowly and thoroughly and do it right! :2thumb:

Don't apologise for the 'plant bit' either, mate- there has been so much discussion, both for and against the Epi-web mix and other mosses- and here, we already have a clue as to why it may work for some, rather than others (the peat/Ecoearth contrast). This is *all* stuff that benefits other keepers!


----------



## frogfreak

Your male Matecho looks like he's in a bad mood. He looks hungry, Stu. :Na_Na_Na_Na: :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I notice again, the Stu-like attention to detail- if you are going to do it, you will do it, do it slowly and thoroughly and do it right! :2thumb:
> 
> Don't apologise for the 'plant bit' either, mate- there has been so much discussion, both for and against the Epi-web mix and other mosses- and here, we already have a clue as to why it may work for some, rather than others (the peat/Ecoearth contrast). This is *all* stuff that benefits other keepers!


Cheers for the words Ron,slow old sod ain't I:lol2:

Ron I've confused you slightly,the second trial with the blackjungle sheet moss used different substrates. The epiweb was actually trialed against just plain ecoearth. My reasoning is because I'd been told ecoearth will grow some cracking moss,but not yet it hasn't,but some of these tropical mosses really take ages to get started,so that isn't complete yet. But from this another keeper has got a sure fire easy method to grow epiweb out of a viv: slap it in a small propergator keep it well lit and moist and seed fairly heavily. The epiweb isn't cheep,but this makes it really viable,especially for someone cobbling up more than one viv. Naturally the plants on transplanting need to be looked after,but viv conditions are condusive to this anway. So one gains month of headstart. The plants on transplanting take some of the ecoearth with them in their "rootball" and seem to establish really well. Epiweb will also take on cork,but my results there are patchy like so many other folks.

Ha ha it is an instant fix...after months of care:lol2:

Joe i've not used the kyoto,the general consensus is results are hit and miss there as well. It might be worth doing similar as I've done with the epiweb.

best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> Your male Matecho looks like he's in a bad mood. He looks hungry, Stu. :Na_Na_Na_Na: :lol2:


Hey buddy,
Glenn I know you are messing with me:lol2:,but there is more in your words than you realise. I'll elabourate,because again it illustrates there is little straight forward about tincs and rearing them 

His lady is a monster and a complete glutton. This pair have been really tricky to get to this stage,despite how good he looks now. Glenn we have repeatedly tried to split them so we can manage their intake of food,but each time the split frog just goes down hill. We have always had to put them back together and instantly the split frog starts to do again. The frog pictured is very often fed almost separately,I adopt the usual blow food all ways tactic,but the female always gets the lions share. So because he is so tame we feed him and stand there pushing her away. Without this determined streak in us to even things out,I strongly suspect we would have lost him. He isn't a bad size,but I really think if I had of been able to keep them apart then he would have done much better and got to a bigger size. He might actually be written off as a breeding male,but we are not quite beaten yet. I think there is probably little better we could have done in this particular case. The female as before is a monster,she's abit overweight sure,but she must be as big if not bigger than our WC attachibakka. So all of this is probably down to her dominance of the viv. I think we must always be aware of the actual individual frogs we care for and let their behaviour dictate our care.Rather than just going by general "protocols" for a species. I am no stranger to giving myself a good kicking if I think my care or abilities has let a frog down,but here I think we have done our absolute best. 

This story for me graphically illustrates why my leanings towards rearing tincs individually , is becoming ever stronger. Naturally your thoughts and the ideas you have put forward to me,were the catalyst for what we are learning and working out through our own experiences. I take no credit for the idea,but damn I can see the reasons why. I strongly suspect very few keepers would keep young tincs separate for 2 years before trying to breed from them,but if this is possible,(I've just illustrated that even this can be tricky),then I feel the keeper will have the best possible chance of rearing WC size frogs. I'm not ruling out the food factor,I still think that is the other major player. An almost constant supply of good grub is also crucial.

Here's a Q for ya mate,what age would you split young frogs down to individual tubs/vivs.

Ha ha that's not what you expected as a come back is it:lol2:

cheers mate

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

soundstounite said:


> Hey buddy,
> Glenn I know you are messing with me:lol2:,but there is more in your words than you realise. I'll elabourate,because again it illustrates there is little straight forward about tincs and rearing them
> 
> His lady is a monster and a complete glutton. This pair have been really tricky to get to this stage,despite how good he looks now. Glenn we have repeatedly tried to split them so we can manage their intake of food,but each time the split frog just goes down hill. We have always had to put them back together and instantly the split frog starts to do again. The frog pictured is very often fed almost separately,I adopt the usual blow food all ways tactic,but the female always gets the lions share. So because he is so tame we feed him and stand there pushing her away. Without this determined streak in us to even things out,I strongly suspect we would have lost him. He isn't a bad size,but I really think if I had of been able to keep them apart then he would have done much better and got to a bigger size. He might actually be written off as a breeding male,but we are not quite beaten yet. I think there is probably little better we could have done in this particular case. The female as before is a monster,she's abit overweight sure,but she must be as big if not bigger than our WC attachibakka. So all of this is probably down to her dominance of the viv. I think we must always be aware of the actual individual frogs we care for and let their behaviour dictate our care.Rather than just going by general "protocols" for a species. I am no stranger to giving myself a good kicking if I think my care or abilities has let a frog down,but here I think we have done our absolute best.
> 
> This story for me graphically illustrates why my leanings towards rearing tincs individually , is becoming ever stronger. Naturally your thoughts and the ideas you have put forward to me,were the catalyst for what we are learning and working out through our own experiences. I take no credit for the idea,but damn I can see the reasons why. I strongly suspect very few keepers would keep young tincs separate for 2 years before trying to breed from them,but if this is possible,(I've just illustrated that even this can be tricky),then I feel the keeper will have the best possible chance of rearing WC size frogs. I'm not ruling out the food factor,I still think that is the other major player. An almost constant supply of good grub is also crucial.
> 
> Here's a Q for ya mate,what age would you split young frogs down to individual tubs/vivs.
> 
> Ha ha that's not what you expected as a come back is it:lol2:
> 
> cheers mate
> 
> Stu


No, that's not what I expected at all. :lol2:

Stu, I would say at age 5-7 months. from my experience that's when they really start to grow fast and need the extra calories to get to their maximum size. I'm going to need a bigger frog room. :censor:

Your post triggered some thoughts about why I prefer groups of Tincs. Like you observed, the females absolutely dominate over males!! I find the males do better when there are more of them. The female will have a much harder time dominating when there are multiple males and more or less just go about their business, as do the males. When they are kept in pairs it's much easier for a female to stress a male out and harass him, as you've noted. I've seen my males hang back and wait for "permission" to feed. It only lasts a minute or two and then he'll join in. I always figured it was the male wanting her to feed first, due to carrying eggs, but now I think he just doesn't want his ass kicked! 

Just the other day, I was feeding a pair of Azureus and the female was harassing the male to no end! He was hungry enough that he put up with it and continued to feed with her climbing all over him. I was leaning them down to stop them from breeding, but think I may have crossed the line a wee bit. :blush:

Thanks for the thought's, Stu! It gave me yet another reason why I feel Tincs to better in groups! :2thumb: :no1:


----------



## Meefloaf

Been to newquay zoo today, got some decent displays for frogs, but my zoo trips are forever changed, spent half the time going 'ooo that's a nice brom' 'ooo that's some nice wood' lol


----------



## fatlad69

Meefloaf said:


> Been to newquay zoo today, got some decent displays for frogs, but my zoo trips are forever changed, spent half the time going 'ooo that's a nice brom' 'ooo that's some nice wood' lol


I know what you mean. Paignton Zoo has an amphibian house with lots of darts but I was looking at the plants more.


----------



## Meefloaf

need to go back paignton, apparently they have a mammoth milk frog there. newquay has a big rainforest enclosure for some birds and a sloth, they set up a load of brom tree's etc and i was rather giddy lol


----------



## mattbeighton

Meefloaf said:


> need to go back paignton, apparently they have a mammoth milk frog there. newquay has a big rainforest enclosure for some birds and a sloth, they set up a load of brom tree's etc and i was rather giddy lol


Quite a few bats in there as well.


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Hi Stu/Shaz

I have seen plenty of Darts arrive fresh from shipment and some of them are HUGE and I am not exaggerating. I have often wondered why the C.B frogs look so weedy in comparison. The answer is of course obvious. we must be missing something from the diet or mineral intake.

but what???

I look forward to a time when we know far more about the wild conditions in which these frogs live.

keep going Stu, I'm know one thing and that is that you are unlocking many secrets of care for us all to benefit from! that is of course the aim of open forum, collective knowledge shared freely!

John.




soundstounite said:


> Hey buddy,
> Glenn I know you are messing with me:lol2:,but there is more in your words than you realise. I'll elabourate,because again it illustrates there is little straight forward about tincs and rearing them
> 
> His lady is a monster and a complete glutton. This pair have been really tricky to get to this stage,despite how good he looks now. Glenn we have repeatedly tried to split them so we can manage their intake of food,but each time the split frog just goes down hill. We have always had to put them back together and instantly the split frog starts to do again. The frog pictured is very often fed almost separately,I adopt the usual blow food all ways tactic,but the female always gets the lions share. So because he is so tame we feed him and stand there pushing her away. Without this determined streak in us to even things out,I strongly suspect we would have lost him. He isn't a bad size,but I really think if I had of been able to keep them apart then he would have done much better and got to a bigger size. He might actually be written off as a breeding male,but we are not quite beaten yet. I think there is probably little better we could have done in this particular case. The female as before is a monster,she's abit overweight sure,but she must be as big if not bigger than our WC attachibakka. So all of this is probably down to her dominance of the viv. I think we must always be aware of the actual individual frogs we care for and let their behaviour dictate our care.Rather than just going by general "protocols" for a species. I am no stranger to giving myself a good kicking if I think my care or abilities has let a frog down,but here I think we have done our absolute best.
> 
> This story for me graphically illustrates why my leanings towards rearing tincs individually , is becoming ever stronger. Naturally your thoughts and the ideas you have put forward to me,were the catalyst for what we are learning and working out through our own experiences. I take no credit for the idea,but damn I can see the reasons why. I strongly suspect very few keepers would keep young tincs separate for 2 years before trying to breed from them,but if this is possible,(I've just illustrated that even this can be tricky),then I feel the keeper will have the best possible chance of rearing WC size frogs. I'm not ruling out the food factor,I still think that is the other major player. An almost constant supply of good grub is also crucial.
> 
> Here's a Q for ya mate,what age would you split young frogs down to individual tubs/vivs.
> 
> Ha ha that's not what you expected as a come back is it:lol2:
> 
> cheers mate
> 
> Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

Dear Stu and Shaz, you guys are awesome


----------



## DrNick

Arcadiajohn said:


> but what???


This might be a very naive question, but what is the likelihood that it has to do with their degree of confinement as juveniles? We all know the stories of various fish being moved from small enclosures after years and suddenly having a growth spurt. 

I'm not suggesting for a minute that the situations are analogous, or that frogs can suddenly grow once adult, but does anyone grow tincs at low density in very large enclosures? Other than sheer quantity of food, enclosure size seems to me a reasonably likely factor to affect growth?

Nick


----------



## frogfreak

DrNick said:


> This might be a very naive question, but what is the likelihood that it has to do with their degree of confinement as juveniles? We all know the stories of various fish being moved from small enclosures after years and suddenly having a growth spurt.
> 
> I'm not suggesting for a minute that the situations are analogous, or that frogs can suddenly grow once adult, but does anyone grow tincs at low density in very large enclosures? Other than sheer quantity of food, enclosure size seems to me a reasonably likely factor to affect growth?
> 
> Nick


I've been housing some individually in 5g tanks. Yes, a small tank and will increase the size! But, the frogs are way bigger then the ones I've grown up together in large tanks.


----------



## soundstounite

DrNick said:


> This might be a very naive question, but what is the likelihood that it has to do with their degree of confinement as juveniles? We all know the stories of various fish being moved from small enclosures after years and suddenly having a growth spurt.
> 
> I'm not suggesting for a minute that the situations are analogous, or that frogs can suddenly grow once adult, but does anyone grow tincs at low density in very large enclosures? Other than sheer quantity of food, enclosure size seems to me a reasonably likely factor to affect growth?
> 
> Nick


Hiya John,thanks for the words,as always too kind.

Nick and John, I do wonder about gut flora/fauna and how that translates in captivity,for the ability to access and process nutrients. Guys I've always thought our diets lacking,well they just have to be,we simply can't compete with the fauna in a rainforest,so this must be a factor. As a side note,we don't really know what constitutes the diet of a tadpole,we know they are detritivores,but we've learnt they are also expert hunters,what gets lost by not feeding both?

John I've only seen a few WC frogs,particularly tincs/pumillio,so it is very tricky for me to know whether the frogs we have bred such as the auratus are way off WC size or are similar. But I do know the SB's are getting to the same size as my breeding trio,and the panama specials are actually getting bigger than their parents.I feel we are somewhere in the ballpark with them. we have a few WC pums here,but it is too early at this time to tell if they will reach the required size,but I suspect they will ,if we rear them.My experiences do not yet extend to size problems with other frogs,I don't here much talk of stunted rani or other species apart from one.

That one frog that the hobby seems to breed freely, and consistently reaches a smaller size than WC adultsis tinctorious. There is no doubt in my mind that their food requirements are singularly important.Leaving aside what might be missing from the diet,we must also factor in the ability of a keeper to provide quantity consistently,some guys would maybe struggle. Rearing a batch of these up to adult hood require some degree of disciplin. But although I think food hugely important it ain't the whole story thats for sure.

The other part is what you have illustrated Nick,I touched on it just back aways. Stocking density hugely important/size of rearing tub equally important.

We got our very first froglet out of the Sb's,that tiny think went into a pretty large tub,I remember somewhere in those early days writing about how we could not believe how far that little mate could jump in days. Dart keepers are led to believe that we need to rear in small containers,especially at first when froglets are young,why because we need to provide a stocking density of food for them and that is easier in a small tub. Auratus are not the biggest jumpers in darts,probably ameegra hold those honours,but that little tiny froglet could nail close 30cm at the drop of a hat,So how does anything smaller tub wise effect this species. could they exercise properly in anything smaller? Yup i know they are shy and often hidden as kids,but that doesn't rule out what happens when we are not there or when hunting. so for me tub size is a player.

I've side tracked slightly from tincs for this,I believe auratus are just abit easier to get to size because they don't seem to stress each other quite so much as tincs do. By actually rearing a good few tincs and keeping them beyond the normal 4 months or so,we are starting to see just how they express themselves regarding each other. These behaviours we see do involve supression,it tends to be fleeting and not consistant. I wouldn't go so far as to think it would cause mortality,but I'm sure it is there for me this is the most likely factor, in frogs not reaching WC size. I think food is important I think tub size also important,but the big one is the individual frogs interacting with each other.See above, this can happen with just two frogs(re my conversation with Glenn). If one stops and ponders how we rear a group of frogs,then compares that to the wild,well, it is pretty damn apparent that one wouldn't walk into a rain forest and pick up six 5month old tincs in a 30cm square,that can never get completely away from each other.What makes us think we can get away with this ? Yeah I know some darts such as pums can be very dense in numbers,mind we don't seem to have this issue with size there. 

I'm not completely there yet,the only way to find out is to do it and rear a few up to adulthood,say the 2 year mark.If they get there,WC size I have a method. At this time, if I was to give what I think to be best practice to a fellow keeper asking questions about rearing his new tincs up to being monsters,I'd tell him to separate then until maturity say the two year mark and give them somewhere half decent in size to live in while growing. I'll also throw in that some breeders have told me they keep them to this age to stop them breeding and allow maximum growth before breeding starts. 

Naturally I'd also be banging home the culture the hell out of everything phylosophy,but ya'll knew that was coming. :blush:good vits bla bla

Brief ramble and cheers Glenn for your part in steering our methods with your wisdom

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

fatlad69 said:


> I know what you mean. Paignton Zoo has an amphibian house with lots of darts but I was looking at the plants more.


They used to have some pygmy hippos in their Adam:flrt:,haven't been for years now guys,but that place is a good part of why you lot are enduring this:blush:
I virtually lived there as a kid

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> No, that's not what I expected at all. :lol2:
> 
> Stu, I would say at age 5-7 months. from my experience that's when they really start to grow fast and need the extra calories to get to their maximum size. I'm going to need a bigger frog room. :censor:
> 
> Your post triggered some thoughts about why I prefer groups of Tincs. Like you observed, the females absolutely dominate over males!! I find the males do better when there are more of them. The female will have a much harder time dominating when there are multiple males and more or less just go about their business, as do the males. When they are kept in pairs it's much easier for a female to stress a male out and harass him, as you've noted. I've seen my males hang back and wait for "permission" to feed. It only lasts a minute or two and then he'll join in. I always figured it was the male wanting her to feed first, due to carrying eggs, but now I think he just doesn't want his ass kicked!
> 
> Just the other day, I was feeding a pair of Azureus and the female was harassing the male to no end! He was hungry enough that he put up with it and continued to feed with her climbing all over him. I was leaning them down to stop them from breeding, but think I may have crossed the line a wee bit. :blush:
> 
> Thanks for the thought's, Stu! It gave me yet another reason why I feel Tincs to better in groups! :2thumb: :no1:


Glenn first up apologies for missing the above posts,mate thoughts on size for a group of tinc adults please.Look i know viv size isn't all,but I would hope we can both get close to what they need,design wise,so some ball parks please mate. 

Second Q,what's 5 gall in this damn metric mate:lol2: i know what I'm going for,but interested in the comparison.

oh Teddy:blush: while I'm Knackered:Na_Na_Na_Na: thanks for the input,not many I know that do tincs on the scale you do,much to be learned from a man that does. your thoughts always make me ponder,not totally sure that's good for me,but I'm cool with it:2thumb:

Stu

Thankyou


----------



## frogfreak

soundstounite said:


> Glenn first up apologies for missing the above posts,mate thoughts on size for a group of tinc adults please.Look i know viv size isn't all,but I would hope we can both get close to what they need,design wise,so some ball parks please mate.
> 
> Second Q,what's 5 gall in this damn metric mate:lol2: i know what I'm going for,but interested in the comparison.
> 
> oh Teddy:blush: while I'm Knackered:Na_Na_Na_Na: thanks for the input,not many I know that do tincs on the scale you do,much to be learned from a man that does. your thoughts always make me ponder,not totally sure that's good for me,but I'm cool with it:2thumb:


Hey Stu,

5g works out to be about 19L which I will probably double in size. I seem to be learning more about Tincs all the time and won't stop experimenting/learning ever, I'm thinking. It's said that some female Tincs can reach 50-55mm in the wild and I'm sure I have some that size here. It may be time to get a caliper and do some comparisons. :mf_dribble:

I have groups in 24" x 24" x 18" Exo's. As may as 3.1 larger Tincs and 4.1 smaller Tincs. Trio's in 18" x 18" x 18" but feel they are a bit on the small side, even though the frogs seem to be doing fine. 

Cheers!


----------



## Ron Magpie

frogfreak said:


> I've been housing some individually in 5g tanks. Yes, a small tank and will increase the size! But, the frogs are way bigger then the ones I've grown up together in large tanks.


This is one of the reasons I want as diverse an ecology as I can manage in any of my tanks: if you look at even ordinary temperate forest soil, the number of species available is huge, compared to what we usually provide. Compare that to a* tropical* soil though... Stu has raised good and sensible cautions, some dart-related, some general, about what we introduce to our vivs- and dart keepers, with small frogs who eat very small prey, are especially vulnerable- but I really think variety is key with nutrition, and therefore growth. And yes, Stu, I know you supply some wild foods too! :lol2:


----------



## Meefloaf

hey guys, got some wonderful springs from stu, struggling to figure best way to get springs from soil to coal


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## Ron Magpie

Meefloaf said:


> hey guys, got some wonderful springs from stu, struggling to figure best way to get springs from soil to coal


Drown 'em! No, I'm actually serious- set up your container with the charcoal and water, and put your container into the water so that it is just covered. The springs will do an 'Atlantis' and head for shore. :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> hey guys, got some wonderful springs from stu, struggling to figure best way to get springs from soil to coal


We need to get you saying charcoal joe,we need to cater for those that don't know yet:2thumb:

buddy I'll reply in detail tomorrow, as I know already you are sorte

Glenn ,Ron please forgive dat recording must happen now must dash 
cheers all

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

ahah yes, must remember to say lumpwood charcoal lol. got it sorted now, got a pot on the go for me woods

Stu is the man, that is all, he has made a young gentleman very happy today

Joe


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> Hey Stu,
> 
> 5g works out to be about 19L which I will probably double in size. I seem to be learning more about Tincs all the time and won't stop experimenting/learning ever, I'm thinking. It's said that some female Tincs can reach 50-55mm in the wild and I'm sure I have some that size here. It may be time to get a caliper and do some comparisons. :mf_dribble:
> 
> I have groups in 24" x 24" x 18" Exo's. As may as 3.1 larger Tincs and 4.1 smaller Tincs. Trio's in 18" x 18" x 18" but feel they are a bit on the small side, even though the frogs seem to be doing fine.
> 
> Cheers!


Hey Glenn,
I'm still on the vertical learning curve with them,I almost hoped that would flatten out in a couple of years,but I'm leaning towards that not being the case:lol2:

Your points about trios and groups in said size of viv are great for me,I'm pondering what applies to my 50cm sq. base vivs whether a trio might be better. My conclusions so far,which may well change are I'm probably best to stick with pairs of adult frogs,but not if I'm trying to grow them on in there
I need to grow them on first separately. I feel even with the benefits that you have put forward my vivs are abit small for a male high trio,tis a really difficult call to make buddy,the dominance factor v the viv size( oh and the ruddy nuances of the individual,which is an unknown until kept).

you are not the only one pondering bigger frogroom kiddo:censor: We learn so much so fast in these "formative" years,even if one plans like hell,which I really tried to do,I still feel I came up wanting in some areas. I'm sure that is the same for all of us though,
thanks for the thoughts bro:no1:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Drown 'em! No, I'm actually serious- set up your container with the charcoal and water, and put your container into the water so that it is just covered. The springs will do an 'Atlantis' and head for shore. :lol2:


I have no doubt this will work Ron,the only "problem" is the ecoearth will probably float too. That is what I used as a sub to get them down to Joe.

Ron what I've recommended is the method we use,yeah I've stolen it:whistling2:. If one makes a hole in the big charcoal culture big enough to put the starter in(still in it's container with the lid off) and them one feeds only on the charcoal,the springtails will slowly move out on to the charcoal,as they get hungry. This way on can pull out the start leaving a few springs in the start. One's starter can then be cared for and grow on,untill it is ready to get another charcoal culture going. always best to split a new start in some way,to avoid all one's eggs in the same basket as it were. Using this method we have managed to get 3 or 4 big charcoal cultures out of one good start.

Another way that is useful to have to hand is an adaption of what you have said,it is really useful if a culture has become infested with mites and one is trying to clean that up. Flood the culture, the springtails float,but the mites tend to get caught by the water,one then grab's a straw and blows the springtails off the water surface,hopefully :lol2: into a new clean sterilized container .

Thanks for the thoughts Ron,always useful to have as many options out there for those learning with us:no1:
best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> ahah yes, must remember to say lumpwood charcoal lol. got it sorted now, got a pot on the go for me woods
> 
> Stu is the man, that is all, he has made a young gentleman very happy today
> 
> Joe


Buddy I am very aware of the first time keepers that come here.If I chuck in my obvious inadequacies with our language. you can see why i'm being almost picky, about the charcoal. is isn't a dig or nowt like that I'm just trying to avoid them making mistakes tis all:2thumb:.

Ahhm mate thanks for the words,i'm nothing special I just want folks to get a good start and benefit from the help I get given,I'm only passing on the kindness of others.

Thanks bro,glad you're pleased,ere are you Implying I'm old or sommit :Na_Na_Na_Na:

good luck kiddo

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

Know it wasn't a dig Stu, a few months ago I was that guy searching through pages looking for answers but not actually asking questions, then I decided asking may get better results lol I was scared of being slaughtered etc.

Joe


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> Know it wasn't a dig Stu, a few months ago I was that guy searching through pages looking for answers but not actually asking questions, then I decided asking may get better results lol I was scared of being slaughtered etc.
> 
> Joe


Ahh shucks ,we slaughter new guys for a pastime here,oh and Canadians northern folks...pretty much anyone frankly even geriatrics are not immune:whistling2: LMAO

I knew you would get it mate,twas more for those you mention:2thumb: folks do lurk and do worry about asking a stupid question,tis a shame it's that way,it really should be like that.

seeya 

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

soundstounite said:


> Ahh shucks ,we slaughter new guys for a pastime here,oh and Canadians northern folks...pretty much anyone frankly even geriatrics are not immune:whistling2: LMAO
> 
> I knew you would get it mate,twas more for those you mention:2thumb: folks do lurk and do worry about asking a stupid question,tis a shame it's that way,it really should be like that.
> 
> seeya
> 
> Stu


It really should NOT!! be like that...DOH:bash:

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

soundstounite said:


> We learn so much so fast in these "formative" years,even if one plans like hell,which I really tried to do,I still feel I came up wanting in some areas. I'm sure that is the same for all of us though


You've got that right, Stu. No way could I have predicted what we're doing now! Who knows what will happen down the road...Upsize, downsize, smaller tanks, bigger tanks, morph in viv only, who the hell knows? :blush:

Rollin with it...:cheers:


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> I have no doubt this will work Ron,the only "problem" is the ecoearth will probably float too. That is what I used as a sub to get them down to Joe.
> 
> Ron what I've recommended is the method we use,yeah I've stolen it:whistling2:. If one makes a hole in the big charcoal culture big enough to put the starter in(still in it's container with the lid off) and them one feeds only on the charcoal,the springtails will slowly move out on to the charcoal,as they get hungry. This way on can pull out the start leaving a few springs in the start. One's starter can then be cared for and grow on,untill it is ready to get another charcoal culture going. always best to split a new start in some way,to avoid all one's eggs in the same basket as it were. Using this method we have managed to get 3 or 4 big charcoal cultures out of one good start.
> 
> Another way that is useful to have to hand is an adaption of what you have said,it is really useful if a culture has become infested with mites and one is trying to clean that up. Flood the culture, the springtails float,but the mites tend to get caught by the water,one then grab's a straw and blows the springtails off the water surface,hopefully :lol2: into a new clean sterilized container .
> 
> Thanks for the thoughts Ron,always useful to have as many options out there for those learning with us:no1:
> best
> 
> Stu


Worked for me in moving them from soil in one viv to a new one, is all I can say. As you know, trropical springs are a benefit for me solely as clean-up crew- they are too small even for the reeds to take as food.


----------



## Meefloaf

Ron, i know we've been here before, but apart from catching critters in the wild (i've figured out some genius contraption for this btw, will build and update) what do you feed your tree frogs ? i'm liking the idea of the soldier flies, messy to culture tho. And woods when i've got enough to give to them.

also, do you have any experience with mossy frogs ? seen some at the zoo the other day and i think they're kinda cool


----------



## Ron Magpie

Meefloaf said:


> Ron, i know we've been here before, but apart from catching critters in the wild (i've figured out some genius contraption for this btw, will build and update) what do you feed your tree frogs ? i'm liking the idea of the soldier flies, messy to culture tho. And woods when i've got enough to give to them.
> 
> also, do you have any experience with mossy frogs ? seen some at the zoo the other day and i think they're kinda cool


I haven't kept mossy frogs- the real expert on those is Saedcantas- who hardly posts on here anymore- she worked at Jersey, though, and really knows her stuff.
My treefrogs (golden and green) eat all the usual crickets, locust hoppers and small roaches, plus soldier flies and WC moths, craneflies ('daddy longlegs'), woodlice, spiders and assorted beetles. Flying or climbing food is their favorite, but they'll get down on the floor if they see something they fancy. I'm working on an article for the next issue of Repticulture on this very subject (PLUG! :lol2, but as usual, have annoying things like work interrupting! :devil:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Worked for me in moving them from soil in one viv to a new one, is all I can say. As you know, trropical springs are a benefit for me solely as clean-up crew- they are too small even for the reeds to take as food.


 yeah sure mate,Glenn will confirm this is known as the flood and pour method,in more sophisticated parts of the world:whistling2:. He has a great gizmo he cobbled up for it too

Ron for us nutters with tiny frogs,the thing I really love about this charcoal method is the easy and speed with which a can get alot of springtails into quarters. Not only that,but tis just springs not bits,of substrate. That is fairly important to us,although I know bits of soil leaves etc do get consumed(it's probably a really good source of trace elements minerals whatever to a wild frog),it's somewhat distressing watching a very young froglet spitting bits of substrate out or rather sat with it's tongue out wiping bits of ecoearth off.

Joe I love mossey frogs damn special they are. Mate,something happened tonight I very nearly lost a really big charcoal springtail culture. This one is heaving mate,I fed probably a bit heavy a day or so back. I fed to the number of springs,but I'm almost sure too damn much. I opened the culture to day and all looked dead,I know they mess with us like woodlice do,but this really looked like carnage. I waved the lid over them and with air they started to come back,so just be abit cautious about quantities of yeast kiddo as you learn all this,I'm sure I would have lost them by tomorrow.I'll add on that this culture was just about to be cleaned out,so the water level was at it's absolute highest,so a furpect storm of conditions that could lead to a crash via CO2 build up. Interested in the gizmos mate
bring it on

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

I see Glenn as our Resident Sophisticate; at least after he dumps the raccoon-tail hat and the plaid shirt... :whistling2:


----------



## frogfreak

Ron Magpie said:


> I see Glenn as our Resident Sophisticate; at least after he dumps the raccoon-tail hat and the plaid shirt... :whistling2:


That's sweet, Ron. You know I only visit here cause I :flrt: you guys!

Seriously, this forum has the least amount of ball busters I've ever seen... :whip: 

...And some smartypants to boot! :2thumb:


----------



## Ron Magpie

frogfreak said:


> That's sweet, Ron. You know I only visit here cause I :flrt: you guys!
> 
> Seriously, this forum has the least amount of ball busters I've ever seen... :whip:
> 
> ...And some smartypants to boot! :2thumb:


Glenn, you know making our Colonial Friends feel at home gives us a warm, fuzzy and slightly paternalistic feeling- win, win, really! :no1:


----------



## frogfreak

Ron Magpie said:


> Glenn, you know making our Colonial Friends feel at home gives us a warm, fuzzy and slightly paternalistic feeling- win, win, really! :no1:



:lol2: :lol2: :lol2:


----------



## wayneb

*Awsome*

Thanks for this thread, full of helpful tips and info for a newbie.


----------



## soundstounite

wayneb said:


> Thanks for this thread, full of helpful tips and info for a newbie.


Thanks bro,great to catch up and talk da froshe,hope I didn't overload you too much:lol2:


A mate called me,erm dude I need some help,my dragons have hatched early,I'm away on holiday,do you think?......well naturally I went out and bought some welding gloves,a fire proof suit,oxygen mask and awaited arrival of the day olds and a couple or three week olds. you'll be fine Stu he said. They came in this thing called an "exoterra",I'm reliably told folks use these to keep dart frogs in:gasp:,but I can't figure it out,I think one throws ff around the house and then hopes some find their way into the erm what's it called? For sure the other way round don't work:whistling2:. I have sieves that hold water better than these things hold ff.

Well these are the little fellas we were gifted a chance to look out for,they are wonderful and exemplify to me just how easy it would be for us to have a zoo here and why we must just stick to darts. My friend gave me instructions set the ff leaker up for me and lets us play ickle aminals,tis what we are best at,I shouldn't really have worried but actually we both did. I wanted them all to go back to my mate,so we followed our guts and had an absolute blast with them,let's face it look at them,how could we not,not quite breathing fire yet though...bless



pick one up and it goes ahh dad's got me back zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz




just fantastic little guys


Now back to darts this is a novel little basti,just ootw by two days,the removing from parents is still working out for us so far,what a corker eh,they have cranked thing up this week so we'll see if they get the other tads ootw and we can rear those,nowt certain nowt taken for granted,as always time will tell...maybe a goldust,hell who knows




bring it on

Stu


----------



## s6t6nic6l

I keep golden mantella's here which are, er, orange, yellow...... but that little fella is what I call a little nugget. must be worth it's weight in.......

nice work :2thumb:


----------



## Tappers

Glad you liked them Stu - pop over and meet their parents sometime! Hope the loose fly numbers are back down to normal :blush:

Those little Oophaga were amazing, such perfect little miniatures..


----------



## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> I keep golden mantella's here which are, er, orange, yellow...... but that little fella is what I call a little nugget. must be worth it's weight in.......
> 
> nice work :2thumb:


Why thank yo kind sir!! They are wonderful to morphout Nic,its only the last week or so that one starts to get some idea about colour. This shade/hue,I dunno, will probably change with age too,so far they seem to get a bit paler.

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Tappers said:


> Glad you liked them Stu - pop over and meet their parents sometime! Hope the loose fly numbers are back down to normal :blush:
> 
> Those little Oophaga were amazing, such perfect little miniatures..


Ha ha I'm a sod aren't I:2thumb:. 'Ere Paul no worries,had a mate stay over friday,from Badsey,he always takes most back home with him,somehow ff seem attracted to sprouts...go figure huh:lol2:

They were a total joy to have here mate,our thanks for the wonderful opportunity to care for them.

best

Stu


----------



## Malagasy

soundstounite said:


> A good while back I set some epiweb moss mix on some ecoearth,at one stage it dried out, I got caught by the first fern which lifted the cling film I utilized to keep humidity up anyway this is what it looks like now
> [URL=http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/Da%20frog%20Room/IMG_5145_zps275489cb.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> [URL=http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/Da%20frog%20Room/IMG_5147_zps8326f458.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> one can simply grub bits out and transplant to the next viv,I really like the effect of seedlings starting to take on bits of wood
> 
> [URL=http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/Da%20frog%20Room/IMG_5149_zps9b917dc0.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> We have also been trialing some of the blackjungle sheet moss we grabbed 3 squares and trialed them on peat ecoearth and a mix of the two,initally it looked like the mix would work best,but ecoearth seems by far best suited to growing this moss,the peat seems just to acidic so that was pulled and put on some oak in a new viv,time will tell if this works.
> Here's the eco our best result
> [URL=http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/Da%20frog%20Room/IMG_5157_zps696d0f53.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> mix nowhere near so good
> 
> [URL=http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/Da%20frog%20Room/IMG_5159_zps0e10266d.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> The heart fern, Hermionitis artolia,if kept at the right humidity will put out new plants from the base of a leaf. These have also been popped into a new viv,some do better than others here are a couple just starting to take hold
> 
> not so good but still alive
> [URL=http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/Da%20frog%20Room/IMG_5151_zpsde356607.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> this one doing better,this is a def way to make more plants of this species,I haven't pics to hand ,but I have proved this out
> [URL=http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/Da%20frog%20Room/IMG_5152_zpsc55015ca.jpg]image[/URL]
> planty tips over :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> As I've already mentioned we lost our cits you can go back for details I'm not going to dwell on that too hard. But we then needed to start over. We ripped out all plants,subs etc burnt them and dried the viv out completely. Next step was to soak the viv in 10% bleech. After this we hosed her down really thoroughly with tap water,I'm talking thorough!! the viv was again left to dry,after this we washed her down repeatedly with the water we use for our frogs,reinstalled the viv and again let her dry out and left alone for a month. A completely dry viv will kill BD I'm told. So worth putting that out there even if in no way do I think this is a problem,we have negative tests to back that!
> So here is that viv two years or so after being constructed,they epoxy rockoflex method seems to have held up really well,some of the covering has been munched by woodlice ,but beyond that evrything is pretty sound
> [URL=http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/Da%20frog%20Room/IMG_5154_zpsfa65473c.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> another pic from further away
> 
> [URL=http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/Da%20frog%20Room/IMG_5156_zps935b3523.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> We are just about to start planting now I guess two months or so from strip down,I'm really hoping we have done enough to feel safe about new occupants,which will inhabit this viv
> 
> oh better get a froggy in eh?
> macheto male
> 
> [URL=http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/Da%20frog%20Room/IMG_5192_zpsfd6492a8.jpg]image[/URL]
> take care
> 
> Stu


I will definitely be trying that with the native mosses! I have never managed ti grow epiweb moss mix or native mosses to the same standard as yours, whats your secret? :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Well kiddo your method is really above,just ecoearth light(these were under leds) and constant moisture........then wait,time is the killer.So i wanted to remove that time factor by starting out of viv,when a viv is cobbled up I have access to pregrown

We set up this trial for the black jungle mix,I needed a method for us,and to pass on,tis too expensive to waste. The epiweb needs dense seeding and that diligence to keep it wet. I have some moss i believe derived from epiweb starting to take hold,possibly 18months on from seeding,so it can be very slow in viv,the fern components are much quicker,but moss seems to take time mate

best

Stu


----------



## jackdart

soundstounite said:


> Thanks bro,great to catch up and talk da froshe,hope I didn't overload you too much:lol2:
> 
> 
> A mate called me,erm dude I need some help,my dragons have hatched early,I'm away on holiday,do you think?......well naturally I went out and bought some welding gloves,a fire proof suit,oxygen mask and awaited arrival of the day olds and a couple or three week olds. you'll be fine Stu he said. They came in this thing called an "exoterra",I'm reliably told folks use these to keep dart frogs in:gasp:,but I can't figure it out,I think one throws ff around the house and then hopes some find their way into the erm what's it called? For sure the other way round don't work:whistling2:. I have sieves that hold water better than these things hold ff.
> 
> Well these are the little fellas we were gifted a chance to look out for,they are wonderful and exemplify to me just how easy it would be for us to have a zoo here and why we must just stick to darts. My friend gave me instructions set the ff leaker up for me and lets us play ickle aminals,tis what we are best at,I shouldn't really have worried but actually we both did. I wanted them all to go back to my mate,so we followed our guts and had an absolute blast with them,let's face it look at them,how could we not,not quite breathing fire yet though...bless
> 
> [URL=http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/IMG_5265_zps1cde6754.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> pick one up and it goes ahh dad's got me back zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
> [URL=http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/IMG_5276_zps609b5272.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> [URL=http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/IMG_5269_zpsbe4d6351.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> just fantastic little guys
> [URL=http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/IMG_5274_zpsc3af34a4.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> Now back to darts this is a novel little basti,just ootw by two days,the removing from parents is still working out for us so far,what a corker eh,they have cranked thing up this week so we'll see if they get the other tads ootw and we can rear those,nowt certain nowt taken for granted,as always time will tell...maybe a goldust,hell who knows
> 
> 
> [URL=http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx37/soundstounite/IMG_5293_zps37432248.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> bring it on
> 
> Stu


hey stu i keep mine in your so called fruit fly sieves and ill have you know i only have 1 fly in my coffee and several in my salad on a daily basis so cant be that bad :lol2: on another note im jealous of those beautiful earless babies, i need to find my fella a missus to have some of my own!


----------



## soundstounite

jackdart said:


> hey stu i keep mine in your so called fruit fly sieves and ill have you know i only have 1 fly in my coffee and several in my salad on a daily basis so cant be that bad :lol2: on another note im jealous of those beautiful earless babies, i need to find my fella a missus to have some of my own!


It's all added protein,for your diet Jack:whistling2:,ahh man I couldn't help it,it just so graphically illustrated the difference,for me with a purpose built dart viv,and a sieve,opps damn sorry erm an ex......:lol2: It is SUCH a difference,I had to run with it,to be fair we just sat and watched the dragons and blew them back in to the viv. But if the micky taking makes a new guy to darts ponder(hey Ron:Na_Na_Na_Na a viv design and it's implications,then hell I'll go with that. we have how many frogs and we rarely see ff other than in the frog room,QED !! 

Jack have a word with Paul(Tappers),I think this is a species that folks need to get going,it was a complete privilege to care for them a proper joy,I think he thinks we helped him,I see it the other way around. The fact that we didn't kill any is the icing mate,good luck bro,i know its a dart thread,but that has never meant we don't care about the other phibs or reps for that matter,just need to be realistic on what we can do and really go for it

belucky mate

Stu


----------



## McDirty

soundstounite said:


> Ah man i know but if folks are gonna be so kind gotta be polite and answer,ha but there ain't the detail apart from the lights which nobody seemed interested in,shame really cause i thought it was a big deal,and they look ok too not completely sure but plants haven't noticed,that they are not using all our electricity,
> Though you could have asked about the ali on den.:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


Im interested in the lighting. Im reading from the start and have just got to here, if its been covered later on then ignore me. lol
I cant read it on dendroworld either as apparenlty my email addresses cant be used :banghead:

Cheers Mark


----------



## Cornish-J

Hey Stu, 

how many cemetery kids have you got now? 
How long before we start seeing these up for sale?

J


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> Hey Stu,
> 
> how many cemetery kids have you got now?
> How long before we start seeing these up for sale?
> 
> J



Hey bro,how the devil are ya mate,oh and good luck with the mysties. I'm hoping you finally got a lass,that sadly I couldn't get in time,I've kept back some and have calling,but no eggs yet,so I'm thrilled you have got there first,post eggs here for me mate,I know when I see this it will make my day: victory:


Bastis will be a while I think dude.I'm holding for a good while and already have to fulfill a commitment.We have 6 ootw ,they have just really upped their game,I think 5 in the water. What i'm aiming for long term is sexed pairs for folks to take on,but who knows if that is feasible or how long that might take. Long term goal is two unrelated tanks and unrelated sexed pairs,but it all takes time. So simply put you might need to look to others for your stock,yeah I know you want 'em mate

Good luck J on both counts:2thumb: 

best

Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

Yea good thanks Stu, hope you guys are well.

I picked up a 2:1 trio from a chap in torquay last weekend, so i now have a 5:1 group....a female at last! 

We're moving into our first house in december or january and i've got plans for our 3rd 'bedroom' (may as well be called a box room for the space in there). 

I'm getting two Juwel Rio 300 base units to support two large display vivs, 120x60x70. One will be for my group of Leucs and the other i'd like to have for a group of cem bastis.

Each room has individual underfloor heating so we can adjust the temps for what we've dubbed 'the rainforest room' without having to have extra heaters etc - should be ideal.


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> Yea good thanks Stu, hope you guys are well.
> 
> I picked up a 2:1 trio from a chap in torquay last weekend, so i now have a 5:1 group....a female at last!
> 
> We're moving into our first house in december or january and i've got plans for our 3rd 'bedroom' (may as well be called a box room for the space in there).
> 
> I'm getting two Juwel Rio 300 base units to support two large display vivs, 120x60x70. One will be for my group of Leucs and the other i'd like to have for a group of cem bastis.
> 
> Each room has individual underfloor heating so we can adjust the temps for what we've dubbed 'the rainforest room' without having to have extra heaters etc - should be ideal.


Yeah I know kiddo,nowt escapes me,I just don't always remember it all:bash: what can I say mate it's hard being this old,one of those I think came from me...I think.

Your new place sounds great mate,I can promise that bastis will be worth waiting for.Not only are they great to watch and see all the parental care,but kids morphing out any colour in the rainbow is just so cool,one simply has no idea what is next,orange yellow red brown and always hope for a blue or green, just wonderful. Tell ya what though,I love me broms,but I like rearing the pums in cans much more,a little thought provoking add on. I have seen everything the cems do,but only transported tads and emerging froglets with the RFB .

Nice viv size,which ever way I look at it,I just love big vivs,wish we could have everything in a min of 2'cube...one day,I'll drag my old bones out side and build something,methinks

good luck with it J,somethine things take time,but the waiting is always worth it with darts

Stu
ps Both good thanks mate:no1:


----------



## soundstounite

some eye candy to see if this works

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/10192208535/" title="IMG_5294 by stuartphilpott1, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2824/10192208535_d2c2381b45.jpg" width="500" height="333" alt="IMG_5294"></a>
Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

There you go mate ..great looking frog!


----------



## Meefloaf

me likey


----------



## ronnyjodes

Meefloaf said:


> me likey


Steady Joe, you know how easily lead you are . Cem bastis are stunning frogs, fell in love the first time I saw one- it's that Koi carp colouring that does it for me.


----------



## soundstounite

soundstounite said:


> some eye candy to see if this works
> 
> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/10192208535/" title="IMG_5294 by stuartphilpott1, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2824/10192208535_d2c2381b45.jpg" width="500" height="333" alt="IMG_5294"></a>
> Stu


and again:lol2:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2824/10192208535_d2c2381b45_z.jpg


----------



## soundstounite

Help please lads,thanks J much appreciated, can you give me a Stu friendly guide please as to how?

Joe yeah I know:flrt: thing is old folks and computers eh,old farts and frogs though,:whistling2: Jonny I thought leading Joe astray was Adam's job:blush:,sorry mate

Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

You get this by using:-

[img]http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2824/10192208535_d2c2381b45_z.jpg[/img]

Good old vbulletin noparse tags. lol

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Sorry Ade you are going to have to patronise me a bit here,even though i know you aren't:lol2:,but that meant nothing I'm right clicking the link but no bloody idea what to copy and paste:bash: DOH hhmmm at least the picture is worth showing though...computer skills decreasing photography slowly getting betterLMFAO

Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

Right, you have it right when you copied the address of your picture from the address bar or whatever.

Next you need to put the opening image tag,







.

Alternatively you can click the little icon that looks like a postcard of 2 mountains, paste the address of your image into the box that come up, then click ok or whatever it says. 

Ade


----------



## Meefloaf

If someone says I can have something pretty, I'm having it lol

Love the missus, she loves driving, pop ten miles to grab some Tesco finest readybrek


----------



## soundstounite

Hello Joe


----------



## soundstounite

good god almighty how the hell does that happen then?


----------



## soundstounite

Serious head on for a little while:gasp:

For all you dart nuts: I'd like to draw your attention to an organisation called Teseros De Colombia. This sustainable farm is the work of one man,he hopes to bring our hobby genuine legit sustainable frogs from Colombia. Colombia has some amazing darts,many will be aware that some species of large oophaga such as histrionica /Lehmanii are endemic to Colombia. Eventually these will become available hopefully from this project. Being all the work of one man who is actually fighting to change laws to make this all happen I think to get as far as he has is a monumental achievement,from the look of things,though ,he is going through a hard time at the moment. I'm going to ask you to read this link where Chris Sherman outlines some of this: maybe we can help in some small way.

Dart Den • View topic - Tesoros de Columbia -new frogs offered !

Here's a link to Teseros's web site

About us

Guys Colombian frogs have not been legally available for some good time,those in our hobby to be of legal status need to be traced back to before Colombia closed it's doors to export,there are some large oophaga here of legal status ,but very few,smuggling could be a major problem for some of these species. Being not very prolific and so stunning in looks they are highly desirable and valuble,this project although in it's infancy may well go some way to helping with this situation if it succeeds. I know many of us will struggle to afford them,but some of the more prolific frogs will be cheeper in price and probably amazing to keep. 

We have just seen the first import of the Paru sylvatica from wikiri,this is an incredibly exciting time to be keeping darts,I really hope they and UE go from strength to strength.
take care

Stu


----------



## DrNick

Here here... But I have to say it's the Andinobates I really can't wait for. I hope he holds it together long enough to get a shipment of those out. A nice pair of A. fulguritus would feed my green-frog obsession for a fair while I think!!!! One can dream..........

Nick


----------



## soundstounite

Yeah great point Nick this very much isn't just about large oophaga, it could even lead to frogs we don't even know about, yetbeyond what we do know of already.On saying that the blackfoot terribs I believe were only recently described,I might be wrong there though! Something for everyone me thinks.I think Ivan just needs some support and help right now once he gets through the initial stages(he said the guy's been at this since 2006 I believe),then hopefully things will be secure. I'm drawn to trying to do a bit for him,if we can,it's an amazing story and we will eventually benefit from it.

You and your green frog fetish will never be slaked mate:2thumb::lol2:

Thanks for the input kiddo

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Damn me we saw this today,so very special as our Leucs for some reason have never carried,actually we must have missed the first transport as there is an older tad in the water and now two more.

Happy Thyme doing the do,sorry for horrible pic,but I just wanted to capture it









Next up well here is the mate to the earlier frog pictured,hopefully a pair if not then back to the drawing board,









Oh and bump for Teseros,read above please and have a dig, important this one

seeya

Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Great result Stu!

john


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Great result Stu!
> 
> john


It is John,they are our first frogs,sure we have bred loads,but suddenly one of the boy's get's it...WHY? He's done it again today:2thumb: he's had so many chance previously,why now?

Red frog beach: during this summer I watched all the broms slowly fail,I knew tads had been carried,but nothing morphed. So eventually my thoughts centered on water retention of said broms and said sod it and pulled nearly all. i found one tiny tad and a feeder egg in with him. So I carefully replaced him and his food in an apropriate axil and put the new brom back,orientated so tad was as close as possible to where he should be. After about a month I spotted movement,mum had to have found him. So i've been waiting for today for what seems like forever,I knew he was alive from that day onwards,but would he make it,oh hell yeah:mf_dribble:

Of complete note I'm watching a cem basti morph out along side him,he is about 1/2 to 3/4 the size of the cem,again with blue legs. He is from different parents to the first batch ,but still shares all those characteristics of his early kin.

moved him to his new gaff almost instantly on spotting him as he had already moved to a new axil,that holds little water,popped him in a film can so he could leave from that ,just in case he needed more humidity and from there he left in around 20 mins and has explored his new home already.



















Finger crossed guys,I want this one!!
oh just got a pan special OOTW in viv...will he rear in there though,that's the question I need to answer for myself now, it will back along running theory on viv size if he does,not complete it,just back it!!
seeya

Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Goodness Stu you really are starting to drill this down to a fine art! I guess as with all things we all learn by our mistakes. This is an "on the job" learning experience for us all.

The great thing is of course that due to the "Magic" of forums we can all learn in a vastly quicker time that ever before 

I am so passionate about forums even with the odd spat that occurs, I really believe that this a learning resource that we can all benefit from.

next up.....you MUST write a book Stu! the definitive at home Dendrobible would be awesome :notworthy:

john,


----------



## Ron Magpie

Arcadiajohn said:


> Goodness Stu you really are starting to drill this down to a fine art! I guess as with all things we all learn by our mistakes. This is an "on the job" learning experience for us all.
> 
> The great thing is of course that due to the "Magic" of forums we can all learn in a vastly quicker time that ever before
> 
> I am so passionate about forums even with the odd spat that occurs, I really believe that this a learning resource that we can all benefit from.
> 
> next up.....you MUST write a book Stu! the definitive at home Dendrobible would be awesome :notworthy:
> 
> john,


Seconded. You could call it 'I'll Just Get My Coat'... :whistling2:

:lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Seconded. You could call it 'I'll Just Get My Coat'... :whistling2:
> 
> :lol2:


Or I'll see my self out...brilliant Ron:notworthy::notworthy:

John,thanks: building methods we are. Maybe one day mate,I still feel there is so so much to learn. John, to actually prove out some theories:rearing a tinc to the size it has potential to be,is a fantastic example,will take around two years. Some of my personal learning curve is confined by time constraints. We haven't reared any ranitomeya yet,so at this point if that ever was to happen,aspects of our hobby such as this need covering. I'd want them in there ,with methods,it would feel incomplete with out that. Always wary of running before I can walk,me!! It's hugely flattering though John,maybe one day.:2thumb:

best

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

soundstounite said:


> It is John,they are our first frogs,sure we have bred loads,but suddenly one of the boy's get's it...WHY? He's done it again today:2thumb: he's had so many chance previously,why now?


G'day Stu,

Is it possible that the frogs senses that the tads just aren't right?

Is it possible that they are losing their natural instinct to transport due to keepers pulling eggs?

Or, just it just take time for those instincts to kick in for some?

Now, I never pull the first several batches of eggs and leave it up to the frogs whether they transport or not. By doing this, I haven't seen a case of SLS in years, or tads not making it, and have had much better success when pulling the eggs that come later.


----------



## Meefloaf

Here's Stu's pic for the book


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> G'day Stu,
> 
> Is it possible that the frogs senses that the tads just aren't right?
> 
> Is it possible that they are losing their natural instinct to transport due to keepers pulling eggs?
> 
> Or, just it just take time for those instincts to kick in for some?
> 
> Now, I never pull the first several batches of eggs and leave it up to the frogs whether they transport or not. By doing this, I haven't seen a case of SLS in years, or tads not making it, and have had much better success when pulling the eggs that come later.


Hey mate ,how the devil are you sir?

Glenn,I suspect the first point really does happen,but I don't expect that to be the case here,as We've done so well with the leuc kids,it would be a remarkable co incidence that I pull good eggs and leave duff ones,also we can factor in that lone tad scraped off a leaf,he's perfect Glenn still going and doing fantastic.So he should have been carried!!

But I think they do know that something might be wrong with a tad and will not carry or cease to feed,Nick above mentioned this to me at some point,an abandoned tad he tried to rear and came out with bad sls I think,Nick might confirm this for us as he must be lurking,if I have that wrong.

Point two is very valid,I haven't adopted you policy of not pulling first eggs laid,but I have often wondered whether our interference is having an effect.Maybe it does have a more pronounced effect on some species or some individual males? But,we have pulled alot of early eggs,it's hard not to Glenn when they are first eggs and one is new to the hobby,very hard. But to run that theory out,every other frog we have bred(exclude oophaga,naturally) has carried when given the chance,so it doesn't completely add up for me. But Glenn I do think this is worth doing leaving eggs for them to transport and trying to rear in viv. Look it gives,then a chance at natural behaviour to their benefit,and for soft old froggers like moi,well how cool is it to see this,its awesome,even just a humble leuc,we are stoked at seeing it.I guess there are many reasons to leave eggs,this being just one,slowing breeding, would oft be cited too. So I do think it's a good policy to leave some in viv,hell yeah,whether it's your way or mine,not sure that matter too much,but I see n o reason other than all eggs mold in viv,to do otherwise. Natural behaviour of frogs is what we should all aspire too,plus watching it is a huge part of why we keep these diurnal frogs...the little buggers are always up to something,work out what and why,is just plain fascinating:2thumb:

Point 3 yeah maybe mate,maybe some lads just take longer,now this one male has done it,he wants more that's for sure. Will it rub off on the other two boys?will we see them doing this soon too?is that something they learnt from him,or is it just my Leucs are like me bloody slow:lol2: I don't know!!

Hmm why haven't you seen sls,you might be right Glenn your pulling later might be a factor,I'm more inclined to believe it's your complete discaplin and ability Glenn that is a bigger factor. For once I'm not actually bigging you up here mate:Na_Na_Na_Na: I would just ponder the way you do things your husbandry skills is a bigger factor than not pulling early eggs !! To run that further,our collection is tiny compared with your,really apart from 1st attachi eggs i'm looking at mystes as my only sls problem,and that has been completely eradicated with vit A dosing twice monthly,so even with our small collection,why haven't I seen more in the frogs I pulled those early eggs from,I should have. Nah it's your and Laura's stockmanship mate!!!!!

Thought provoking Glenn...GOOD STUFF,don't totally agree with all of it,but I think there some stoking points you make,the best of it for me is we should all give them a chance to carry at some stage,why would we not want to see this or risk breeding it out of our frogs,just one more thing has sprung into my mind? 
Does it take longer for a tad that wasn't transported to work this stuff out? Is that the real player here?

Always more questions than answers mate....always,but damn fine to ponder them anyway:no1:

best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> Here's Stu's pic for the book
> 
> image


Nah that guy is too young,I thought you would have pulled up the ghost rider version Joe:lol2: ha ha me I'd rather not be known Joe:whistling2:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

thats what popped up in my head when i saw you come bounding through the doors at BAKS fella, was expecting to see my mate (who is the twin of steve buscemi) pop up with a tea set lol


----------



## frogfreak

Stu and others,

Have you ever left a batch of eggs in viv, had the male transport and leave 1 or 2 behind?


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> Stu and others,
> 
> Have you ever left a batch of eggs in viv, had the male transport and leave 1 or 2 behind?


We can't isolate a case here Glenn,might be poor memory though, but I'm utterly sure it happens. What are you thinking mate,you're going somewhere with this?

Actually if one included oophaga,I have seen transport,and then tad not fed,but that's not quite the same thing. Sorry mate,I'm a bit frazzled,little sleep...

Stu


----------



## DrNick

soundstounite said:


> But I think they do know that something might be wrong with a tad and will not carry or cease to feed,Nick above mentioned this to me at some point,an abandoned tad he tried to rear and came out with bad sls I think,Nick might confirm this for us as he must be lurking,if I have that wrong.


Lurking - harsh........ ;-)

Yep, I had a vanzolinii tad a few months ago that I noticed wasn't being fed any more. After a while I removed it and tried to raise it outside the viv, but it just didn't grow. I've never seen anything like it before or since. It popped back legs at a body length of about 4mm and then gave up the ghost as its front legs were coming through.

As this is the only abandoned tad I've noticed, and the only one that had this strange development, I wondered if the two were connected. Dennis said he'd seen the same. But could just be coincidence of course - or that the abandonment in some way affected subsequent development.

Nick


----------



## soundstounite

DrNick said:


> Lurking - harsh........ ;-)
> 
> Yep, I had a vanzolinii tad a few months ago that I noticed wasn't being fed any more. After a while I removed it and tried to raise it outside the viv, but it just didn't grow. I've never seen anything like it before or since. It popped back legs at a body length of about 4mm and then gave up the ghost as its front legs were coming through.
> 
> As this is the only abandoned tad I've noticed, and the only one that had this strange development, I wondered if the two were connected. Dennis said he'd seen the same. But could just be coincidence of course - or that the abandonment in some way affected subsequent development.
> 
> Nick


Ha ha, sorry bro,maybe watching was a better choice of words,:whistling2:
Thanks for the input though,Do you leave the first eggs Nick?

Stu


----------



## DrNick

soundstounite said:


> Thanks for the input though,Do you leave the first eggs Nick?
> 
> Stu


Sorry Stu - no comprende!! I leave all eggs in with the vanzolinii, they're good parents (on the whole...). I pull them from all the Ranitomeya in 'the other clade'. Never had a fant or retic come through in the viv without intervention.


----------



## frogfreak

soundstounite said:


> What are you thinking mate,you're going somewhere with this?


Oh, just tossing stuff out there... I have seen males leave tads behind. Or, the tads were not strong enough to get onto Dad's back...

As far as not pulling the first clutches, I think we should leave them for several reasons. If the frogs are housed together and sexually mature within a group, they're generally breeding too early. The clutches can be bad, tiny and the eggs themselves can be a lot smaller. Smaller than normal eggs is a bad sign right off the hop. SLS generally show up in the first few clutches. Another sign that we're breeding the frogs too early. Lastly, it gives Dad a chance to get things right and transport them. 

Keeping them separate resolves these issues, but isn't practical for most.


----------



## soundstounite

DrNick said:


> Sorry Stu - no comprende!! I leave all eggs in with the vanzolinii, they're good parents (on the whole...). I pull them from all the Ranitomeya in 'the other clade'. Never had a fant or retic come through in the viv without intervention.


My bad Nick the first eggs laid by young non obligates,ie their very first eggs.

Stu


----------



## DrNick

Okay, I see what you mean! To be honest, I would be amazed if I was observant enough to spot a 1st clutch!! 

As you know I'm a Ranitomeya man, so maybe slightly different rules to the big guys, but I just pull eggs occasionally whenever I want to raise a couple. Those deposited in the vivs (vanzos excluded) never make it because I don't keep the vivs wet enough. I only keep the water in the vanzo viv topped up when necessary.

I've had pairs of offspring lay in raising containers, but again I tend not to grow these on so can't comment - it's just a useful exercise for sexing the babies.

Nick


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> Oh, just tossing stuff out there... I have seen males leave tads behind. Or, the tads were not strong enough to get onto Dad's back...
> 
> As far as not pulling the first clutches, I think we should leave them for several reasons. If the frogs are housed together and sexually mature within a group, they're generally breeding too early. The clutches can be bad, tiny and the eggs themselves can be a lot smaller. Smaller than normal eggs is a bad sign right off the hop. SLS generally show up in the first few clutches. Another sign that we're breeding the frogs too early. Lastly, it gives Dad a chance to get things right and transport them.
> 
> Keeping them separate resolves these issues, but isn't practical for most.


Very relevent to tincs Glenn and our ponderings on getting adult WC size, I wonder ,how appicable to some of the other species? But yes mate, points taken and being absorbed and being dwelt upon!! 

At this stage I'm as sure as I can be that you are spot on with tincs though,bang on the money: I'm very close to having all atachis kids single now Glenn,space is a real pain as you mention to attempt this,but I'm utterly determined to see this out to the two year mark,I need to know I personally can do this,get that much desired size. I want this one mate...really want,just don't know yet whether I'll be able to hold 3 pr,maybe only two like this,space being the only factor,that will lead to compromise.

It's much more difficult for me to be sure though on my auratus, Glenn.Now the superblues,hailing from UE are difficult because Mark sends out such big frogs,although they grew more here,before laying,they might just have already bred,so I can't confirm first eggs that I pulled,tis very likely though. Panama specials,yeah too small to lay when they came here,first eggs ok,if I remember correct,never been quite as strong as SB,but then that'll be the gene pool only apparent in tads and eggs though after morphout viability about the same,that has continued to be true up until the last eggs I pulled of them. But what I reared are bigger than their parent on the whole,by a year old,so I'm not quite so sure here,for the need to split,thoughts mate?

Glenn,you are outlining proper best practice here me thinks,while I'm debating with you be very clear how much I appreciate the thoughts.

For anyone else reading this,erm I slightly derailed a thread on DB:blush: it sort of outlines, maybe, some really good methods for tinctorious,worth pondering over :Biggest tinc - Dendroboard



cheers kiddo:no1:

Stu

PS heard Mr summersi call this morning,they are back laying again,mrs S left the can to come and see if I had grub,he hollared at her to get back in the can with him...bless,first time I've heard it and been 100% sure plus definite summersi call for good measure..fingers crossed here we go again!!!!!!!!!!:lol2:


----------



## Meefloaf

Speaking of de-railing...., My lil guys are CB 2012 so we can safely say, near enough a year old or older, do you feed every day ? i ask as they seem a lil rotund. thinking of missing their meal today as they are out and about scavenging the left over flies and custodians

also, saw some Leucs at a pet shop, just labelled as poison dart frogs and had very little in the way of shelter and were so fringing tiny


----------



## soundstounite

G'day Joe, all about quantity fed I guess,but it is very easy to get darts too fat, probably 3 x per week mate would be better. Joe while they grow they need more food once mature they'll need less,a bit more when breeding. The only growing frogs of around a year old that i regularly feed more than 3x are the tincs mate, I think they need the consitent grub available. Joe It's really important to make them work for their grub,blow the flies off your hand into the viv so they go all ways,make then hunt hard,helps keep fitness too. Joe it's hard this weight judgement, most of us look for a bit heavy like Ed mentioned. Look at as many pictures of wild frogs or videos as you can. Consitently I want my young stock just on the heavy side,but I may well just be erring a bit too fat.

Final word leucs will get too fat as adults of you don't monitor this mate,you will also up food and cut back to encourage and discourage breeding respectively.

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Sorry Joe missed the last bit...pet shops in some cases shouldn't be selling I guess, darts aren't difficult but they are a bit specialist,a skill set needs aquiring and if one is selling,then it's imperative that gets passed on before the frogs.

I've pretty much staked my colours to the mast on selling young frogs,i'm no fan of this,it's a personal view not judging anyone,just not for me,I hope they do ok!!

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

they were around 5p size i'd say, whilst i did nearly buy ACTUAL milk frogs this size, well, they are just too cute, but thats the problem it's the cute thing isnt it, in your heart you want it as soon as possible and watch them grow etc but your head says NO, not yet.

as for feeding, cheers man, i try to put the food around a bit but one froggie got wise today and came up to me on a branch where i was dropping lol in a way, nice to know they are not scared of me tho eh. shall cut back their food as i know one has been eating more flies than the other. got a week off work and have noticed that they both come out around 12-2 and have a little hunt around the viv picking up the strays and any woods or springs they find.


----------



## soundstounite

DrNick said:


> Okay, I see what you mean! To be honest, I would be amazed if I was observant enough to spot a 1st clutch!!
> 
> As you know I'm a Ranitomeya man, so maybe slightly different rules to the big guys, but I just pull eggs occasionally whenever I want to raise a couple. Those deposited in the vivs (vanzos excluded) never make it because I don't keep the vivs wet enough. I only keep the water in the vanzo viv topped up when necessary.
> 
> I've had pairs of offspring lay in raising containers, but again I tend not to grow these on so can't comment - it's just a useful exercise for sexing the babies.
> 
> Nick


Nick somewhere ,yeah I know,I read about keeping rani separate to attain full size,ie similar to what Glenn was saying,but I dont't know what time span that would be with them maturing so much faster. Any thoughts mate?

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> they were around 5p size i'd say, whilst i did nearly buy ACTUAL milk frogs this size, well, they are just too cute, but thats the problem it's the cute thing isnt it, in your heart you want it as soon as possible and watch them grow etc but your head says NO, not yet.
> 
> as for feeding, cheers man, i try to put the food around a bit but one froggie got wise today and came up to me on a branch where i was dropping lol in a way, nice to know they are not scared of me tho eh. shall cut back their food as i know one has been eating more flies than the other. got a week off work and have noticed that they both come out around 12-2 and have a little hunt around the viv picking up the strays and any woods or springs they find.


Ha it's the cute thing that keeps them here too buddy,too cute to part with,ha no it's more than that:lol2:

It's so hard not to dive in Joe,once someone is set on frogs the waiting is a killer,but damn, honing stuff first is such a saver,both for frogs and folks alike.

Welcome on the grub mate,it's always tricky with some groups because of frog hierarchy I guess.some just seem to put more on than others,some are just bolder so get the loins share,it's an art form mate,to me,something that has to be learned by doing. the hardest is pulling back to stop them breeding,I think that is just soooo difficult for a new keeper to get to grips with

Stu


----------



## DrNick

soundstounite said:


> Nick somewhere ,yeah I know,I read about keeping rani separate to attain full size,ie similar to what Glenn was saying,but I dont't know what time span that would be with them maturing so much faster. Any thoughts mate?
> 
> Stu


No idea Stu. Some species I raise communally and some I raise individually. This is less to do with their well-being and more to do with me trying not to loose any! The well behaved ones (vanzos, mantella, glacs etc.) go in together. The fantastica especially tend to be kept alone because taking a lid off a small tank with a few of those bad boys in is like a bomb going off.... 

However....... I have also raised the latter in pairs (twos, I should say, unsexed) and small groups and they certainly interact. They will be found together under leaves and the like and seem to 'prefer' that situation when immature. In turn, my preference would be to raise them in small groups, all other things being equal. 

Importantly though, I have noticed no difference in growth rate or time to maturity, but like you say this is all so accelerated in the ranitomeya it would have to be a dramatic effect to spot it. On the other hand, the only large dendrobatids I have bred, A. galactonotus, can take 3 years to mature, so seeing any effect there is quite an investment in time!!!

Nick


----------



## soundstounite

DrNick said:


> No idea Stu. Some species I raise communally and some I raise individually. This is less to do with their well-being and more to do with me trying not to loose any! The well behaved ones (vanzos, mantella, glacs etc.) go in together. The fantastica especially tend to be kept alone because taking a lid off a small tank with a few of those bad boys in is like a bomb going off....
> 
> However....... I have also raised the latter in pairs (twos, I should say, unsexed) and small groups and they certainly interact. They will be found together under leaves and the like and seem to 'prefer' that situation when immature. In turn, my preference would be to raise them in small groups, all other things being equal.
> 
> Importantly though, I have noticed no difference in growth rate or time to maturity, but like you say this is all so accelerated in the ranitomeya it would have to be a dramatic effect to spot it. On the other hand, the only large dendrobatids I have bred, A. galactonotus, can take 3 years to mature, so seeing any effect there is quite an investment in time!!!
> 
> Nick


So no difference in eventual size.
Thanks Nick,yeah I take your point about the pocket rockets,especially after chasing a very tiny pum around our work surface earlier today:blush: It's all about splitting at the right stage,getting the stocking densities right,with the tincs I feel, then just preventing breeding,until the age is there. Hmm rani well I'll just have to be patient,i'd just be happy with a tadpole at this time. So frustrated by the summersi,everything is there ,but the damn eggs.

Thanks I'm sure what I was referring to was dendroboard,I'll dig abit later,it might be interesting,got a hunch they were talking about fantastica too,but I may well be completely wrong

take care

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

all this talk of breeding frogs etc, still praying i've actually got a male and female, no calls have been heard. but what's the process should my leucs breed ? do i let nature take it's course ? or are they a bit on the cannibal side


----------



## Cornish-J

you can play some clips of leucs calling, that always works with mine! They always respond to it...


----------



## DrNick

Meefloaf said:


> all this talk of breeding frogs etc, still praying i've actually got a male and female


Oh, don't get me started! Lol

Stu rani as in ranitomeya - I'm with you!! I was thinking rani = rana pleural = frogs in general, hence my vague and rambling response! Maybe we should just give up with this communication malarkey............ Anyway, no, I've not seen size differences based on whether the juvies are kept alone or in groups - although that doesn't mean there isn't an effect. But, I think nutrition is the key to getting them up to size - obviously.

Nick


----------



## s6t6nic6l

*Da DART SIGN V1.1*

too much time to myself it seems :whistling2:

no comment to make :halo:

minor improvisation to the door decoration



see ya


----------



## Ron Magpie

Meefloaf said:


> all this talk of breeding frogs etc, still praying i've actually got a male and female, no calls have been heard. but what's the process should my leucs breed ? do i let nature take it's course ? *or are they a bit on the cannibal side*


I recall a few people saying they leave baby leucs in with the adults- if anything, they are somewhat protective. Knowing how greedy most adult frogs are when it comes to their young, this mind-boggled me a bit, but there you are!


----------



## Cornish-J

correct Ron, i've neard of a case of cannibalism with leucs...as you say, generally pretty protective.

Joe - i wouldnt expect much from the first few clutches, might take a few clutches before you start getting fertile, good eggs....thats if you go down the removal route.


----------



## Meefloaf

thats cool, i can put my panic button away for now then


----------



## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> too much time to myself it seems :whistling2:
> 
> no comment to make :halo:
> 
> minor improvisation to the door decoration
> 
> [URL=http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad128/s6t6nic6l/ideas%20misc%20raz/DADARTSIGN3_zps4e6e0ac7.png]image[/URL]
> 
> see ya


I don't change much,Nic,there is still the gracious bewilderment that someone would do that for us still the amazement,thanks :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy: man:notworthy::notworthy:

Now, will someone print this bugger for me and laminate it or something,I'll cover the cost,but I WANT IT and I WANT IT NOW,said while stamping foot and dong best impression of a prima donna,which let's face it isn't my strong point.:lol2:

Thanks mate,for a second time:no1: But this one I really do NEED,help please anywhere?:mf_dribble:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I recall a few people saying they leave baby leucs in with the adults- if anything, they are somewhat protective. Knowing how greedy most adult frogs are when it comes to their young, this mind-boggled me a bit, but there you are!


To the good Dr(Nick),you've got it it was just an abbreviation,erm would your life be the same if you didn't have to try and decipher what I'm wittering on about,damn it's way more fun this way,I'm sorry mate,I try my best,ha on that score I'm found wanting,damned if I can find what I wanted you to be able to peruse,patience Nick I'll find it.


Ron Joe,hey guys:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Parental care,per se basically stops when dad drops tad in the water,dad decides where eggs are laid dad looks after eggs once laid and dad carrries tadpole to water once that have hatched,this is applicable to all the tinc clade and excidobates I think(slightly unsure on captivus as it's not in captivity ). Anyway,these frogs certainly have a fascination with their growing kids,lots of us have seen them watching tadpoles. Simply put, we might just be seeing abnormal behaviours due to captivity,but I suspect more than that. Switching to tincs males should always carry,but you have pics here of 2 females doing the same,abnormal behaviour or is this something just not reasoned with yet by science,I'll leave you ponder. 

When tad climbs ootw parental care pretty much isn't there,I think again a quiet curiosity.The big factor here Ron is these guys are small prey specialists,so I honestly dont't think they are capable of eating their own young,I think they almost tolerate them begrudgingly. Shaz and I have both seen kids get trodden on and kicked at,almost like admonishing a nipper. But it's subtle,I don't think designed to harm. I'm pretty sure all darts cease parental care at morphout,the whole group. Some male oophaga have killed offspring though,so nothing is completely straight forward,for the group. 

Guys so far we have reared two,just two,non obligates in viv,maybe number 3 will make it,all different species. My take on success is the viv and possibly it's footprint as the biggest factor. But I have no doubt that these tank reared frogs,even so few, get one hell of a start. I guess my /our hobby's rearing methods are to blame with simple set ups geared to easy cleaning betwixt batches of kids. Ron do you remember way back us pondering me using big tubs for tiny kids,breaking the normal values,they work ,we produce what i'm after,but I think there might be more to be had if I had space, even stronger kids. If you ask me honestly n ow what is the best possible start I could give to a dendro froglet,my thoughts would run along the lines of a 2'cube with full background and plants the whole shebang. A logistical night mare to monitor them totally not achievable,but i'd love to be in a postion to pop 4 morphlings in that and sit back and learn

So Joe,you can rear them with parents,it is doable,Glenn does alot of this,I think it's possibly the best way,it might achieve the strongest offspring,but the cavait might be: is my viv big enough!! When you get eggs mate we'll get you through it,but there is little to worry about like everything put in the groundwork and some of it follows....ha ha honest at least some of it LMAO

best both

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

Cheers Stu, you crazy, crazy genius you:lol2:

i like the idea of leaving them in, i must say, if they make it, they make it, i doubt i'll get into the breeding/selling part of the hobby (he says this, but when he ends up with 30kids to house). 

must say, on your theory about housing them in a full sized viv, i'd agree, when i was a kid i had a massive fish tank we'd put tad's in from my pond, the water would also be from this, my ponds were never the cleanest and i would say quite alot of grass and leaves would end up in this and mulch down. back to the tank, we;d have a land section in there with leaves and rocks what have you and then a fairly large water area, once the frogs had morphed out and got a bit bigger, i'd release them back to my frog corner (crappy pile of cuttings from the garden and tree's but always brimming with frogs) or the school pond (this is where i usually kept them in my classroom, so my mates could learn science stuff lol). i'd imagine you would've had something similar in your classroom ? anyways, it seemed to work for those guys, so in essence having rearing tanks may well work. Perhaps you could even have just fake plants (some nice foam uncovered even :flrt so that you would only need to clean the tank and bits between clutches from different species.


----------



## s6t6nic6l

s6t6nic6l said:


> too much time to myself it seems :whistling2:
> 
> no comment to make :halo:
> 
> minor improvisation to the door decoration
> 
> 
> 
> see ya


:devil:

that's better :whistling2:


----------



## Ron Magpie

That's a totally relevant point, Stu- even my frogs that are roughly that size (the reed frogs and the burrowing frogs) tend to eat much larger prey as a matter of course- I hadn't thought of it that way. At the mo, I have smaller FBTs and tropicalis clawed frogs separated from the adults because they would just be another munchy. Whether too big to be attractive or as a result of 'parental care', it's a whole new world with darts!


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> Cheers Stu, you crazy, crazy genius you:lol2:
> 
> i like the idea of leaving them in, i must say, if they make it, they make it, i doubt i'll get into the breeding/selling part of the hobby (he says this, but when he ends up with 30kids to house).
> 
> must say, on your theory about housing them in a full sized viv, i'd agree, when i was a kid i had a massive fish tank we'd put tad's in from my pond, the water would also be from this, my ponds were never the cleanest and i would say quite alot of grass and leaves would end up in this and mulch down. back to the tank, we;d have a land section in there with leaves and rocks what have you and then a fairly large water area, once the frogs had morphed out and got a bit bigger, i'd release them back to my frog corner (crappy pile of cuttings from the garden and tree's but always brimming with frogs) or the school pond (this is where i usually kept them in my classroom, so my mates could learn science stuff lol). i'd imagine you would've had something similar in your classroom ? anyways, it seemed to work for those guys, so in essence having rearing tanks may well work. Perhaps you could even have just fake plants (some nice foam uncovered even :flrt so that you would only need to clean the tank and bits between clutches from different species.


I'll take the crazy Joe,but what does that other word mean?:lol2:

Nowt on the classroom Joe,like you I did it at home. Hmm i wanted to be in conservation Joe,even as a tiny thing,I knew that common frogs weren't so common even then,so worked out that I could interfere. My plot involved working the numbers. From all those tadpoles,just two must survive to adulthood for a population to remain stable. So my plan was t o help things by rearing a tiny amount of spawn,right up to morphout. I figured alot would have been eaten by then. By hook or crock I found ponds with no frogs. Each pond got some tads just abut to morph. My aunty had one of those ponds,plus a walled garden. That little colony was still going 20 yrears later,possibly even now and how many others who knows. It would be dangerous now with RV about to do that,it's pretty important to return them where they came from,now. There are other factors too,populations adapt to specific niches,i read a fascinating paper linked by Ed about this,but as usual,lost in the morass I inhabit:lol2:

Bro I've just been looking at some Leuc and tinc tads,they are bloody huge mate,without having them side by side with temporia it's hard to tell,but I would guess similar size,it's quite bewildering really,as the adults are so different size wise. mind I stuffed them full of mossi larvea when they were tiny. I pulled the tads happy carried from the leuc viv,only one real reason,worries about them eating each other. If there was only one we would have left him like the last,but 4 or 5,nah,the thought of little leucs with no toes,was messing with me...or worse. You'll enjoy rearing a few Joe,it's wicked,the best bit is that last week or so,when a brown tad suddenly becomes a splendiferous dart:mf_dribble:

Jees just breaking away from this,a mystie laid a clutch of 20 eggs late yesterday,normally about 7 is usual here.

bring it on.

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> :devil:
> 
> that's better :whistling2:


Nic thanks again mate,I really want that on me door,jaws do drop ocassionally when it opens,so I wont't have to mop up so often when they leave hopefully

Dude can you tell me which type of foamboard you use for carving rocks please,I'm working up some form of slate look,the usual method is working,but,I might try something slightly different,all about detail really,fine stuff,not so easy with the poly,but it looks ok so far. I have a very particular habitat in mind for some very particular darts. It's a 2'cube,i've been musing this design for eons now,but finally the background stage has been reached. It's going to be fun working up this one,but I'm bricking getting the ruddy thing in the rack,just the glass is heavey and that's not complete yet:gasp:

thanks buddy

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

i was surprised at how big the Mossy Frog tads were at paignton, even the common frog tads i've had over the years were not this big.

As for the leuc's, hmm, if you are letting any go in the future (know you like to grow em on abit) i may have to grab some off you to go with my pair, they are unrelated too, so would have three bloodlines in there

regarding your polstyrene issue Stu, alot of people use the insulation stuff, kingspan is it ?


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> That's a totally relevant point, Stu- even my frogs that are roughly that size (the reed frogs and the burrowing frogs) tend to eat much larger prey as a matter of course- I hadn't thought of it that way. At the mo, I have smaller FBTs and tropicalis clawed frogs separated from the adults because they would just be another munchy. Whether too big to be attractive or as a result of 'parental care', it's a whole new world with darts!


G'day Ron,yeah so different,yet so similar,if you know what I mean. I'll throw something else at you Ron,these kids are painted in "WARNING !! DO NOT EAT ME" colours,that might help... ,but my bet is just the food size. Ron they will try bigger stuff,we had a blue bottle whizzing around the frogroom in the summer,driving us both nuts,while we fed all the kids. We were half way throgh winding up some attachis when the fly landed on the side of the tub. One of the 3/4 grown tincs hurled it'self the length of the tub,but just missed by a gnat's ***. Ron totally like a cineria, you know almost floppyI doubt he would have delt with it if he had caught,but one hell of a leap and erm splat,I shouldn't wind them up really,they get so excited at dinner time :bash::blush:

Stu


----------



## s6t6nic6l

yes kingspan should work well for you here or spaceboard of which both are used by me depending on task in hand. spaceboard comes in a 1200 x 500 x 52mm size so not to much lost if only on a small project with it. either will give you a good base to work on as you will be able to saw/cut/sand etc whilst sculpting out your masterpiece. I know you would anyhow but if you go with the P I R then protect your beady types and gob. I would advise that if possible you source some free from some building work/trader as a test piece because you will need to know what effect your preferred covering(s) will cause, if any, after being applied.

would like to see this in progress if poss


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> i was surprised at how big the Mossy Frog tads were at paignton, even the common frog tads i've had over the years were not this big.
> 
> As for the leuc's, hmm, if you are letting any go in the future (know you like to grow em on abit) i may have to grab some off you to go with my pair, they are unrelated too, so would have three bloodlines in there
> 
> regarding your polstyrene issue Stu, alot of people use the insulation stuff, kingspan is it ?


Joe how big is your Leuc viv? Mate my little tank raised guy might just be perfect for you. He will stay here a while longer yet,but he's so special I'd like him to go to someone I know really,he's so bold,proper little character,bless,providing everything works out,being our first leuc raised with parents. It will probably be 5/6 months before we have any others. Joe one has to be so careful breeding these more prolific darts I mentioned this elsewhere recently. It's worth reiterating though,even at this early stage we could produce several hundred tads across the species.so i'm careful in what I pull,I don't ever want to get caught out mate by being short of grub.

Thanks on the kingspan, yup that's what it's called,i've used much of that,in previous jobs.

thanks bro

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> yes kingspan should work well for you here or spaceboard of which both are used by me depending on task in hand. spaceboard comes in a 1200 x 500 x 52mm size so not to much lost if only on a small project with it. either will give you a good base to work on as you will be able to saw/cut/sand etc whilst sculpting out your masterpiece. I know you would anyhow but if you go with the P I R then protect your beady types and gob. I would advise that if possible you source some free from some building work/trader as a test piece because you will need to know what effect your preferred covering(s) will cause, if any, after being applied.
> 
> would like to see this in progress if poss


G'day Nic,thanks for the speedy reply
Yeah I try on the pics Nic,having some issues getting stuff out of flickr,I've just moved to this new photo hosting site as weve filled photo bucket,I don't want to delete the old stuff here.With my English being what it is the pictures are important. I'll find my way,it's just damn slow at the moment.

The safety aspect you raise is very important mate,actually pondering working in a mask and glasses for hours,this one will be slow,against not using with the poly,might sway me to stay where I am. I simply have a little hoover right beside me with the poly,its messy as hell,but I'm not inhaling anything,plus I have a rock(no pun intended) solid method. Nic as I mentioned to Joe I've worked with kingspan before on sites,I can small fumes when cutting that stuff,it makes me wary to be honest,but it's tried and tested. Thanks kiddo food for thought !!

cheers bro

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

Hey Stu, I've got two of the guys in a 60(high)45(deep)60(wide)


----------



## Meefloaf

sorry for the short reply yesterday stu, was at work (wonderful only 4 of us in, ten rolls of carpet to be handballed in and put away/up and a shed load of other stuff, fun day, need to get a job i enjoy lol)

i'll get you some pics sorted of what it looks like atm. it would be an honour to have that little guy with me at some point, thank you very much for the offer, i know how much he means to you.

been re-scanning your thread, missus has given me the go ahead to get the other viv on the go, currently got so many idea's in my nogging, i could build 10 at least lol. How's the polystyrene holding out ?

aaand, if you see a bright red seat following you home after baks next year, it is not me, nope


----------



## soundstounite

Joe,the apologies are mine not yours bro,the beauty of this media is we can talk when time allows,so all of us can tap something down in those downtime minutes. Buddy I'll come back later and answer,you properly,not ignoring ya mate,I just needed to get that post out to Rob and then have been doing,almost all froggy stuff so no complaints,but tis actually me whom owes the apology,for making you wait:Na_Na_Na_Na:
seeya

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

aha no worries fella, regarding reply, just dawned on me as i stirred this morning i had been, whats the word again, "curt"


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> sorry for the short reply yesterday stu, was at work (wonderful only 4 of us in, ten rolls of carpet to be handballed in and put away/up and a shed load of other stuff, fun day, need to get a job i enjoy lol)
> 
> i'll get you some pics sorted of what it looks like atm. it would be an honour to have that little guy with me at some point, thank you very much for the offer, i know how much he means to you.
> 
> been re-scanning your thread, missus has given me the go ahead to get the other viv on the go, currently got so many idea's in my nogging, i could build 10 at least lol. How's the polystyrene holding out ?
> 
> aaand, if you see a bright red seat following you home after baks next year, it is not me, nope


So let me get this right a guy looking a bit like meetloaf dressed in orange is going to be following us home on a red sofa...'erm ok...cool:mf_dribble:

Joe bro no worries just thought you were rushing tis all.

Anyway the viv is bigger than I thought so regarding numbers we have 5 in a 60cube,so something to muse on. Little leuc is ace Joe,after I replied we went round feeding a few tincs and checking stuff,my little mate bounced up front,so I fed him a few springtails with the door open on the front vent,he is so damn tame,I have no clue why though,I wish i could crack that. but I do this from time to time as 5 big guys think all the grub is there's, digressing little pan special is also doing ok too another couple of weeks and he'll make it I guess,which is so cool.I'd love to see some pics of your viv mate and good luck on the next one azzies huh, wicked. I do want him to go to someone we know Joe,that is if I can tare him away from shaz,but we can't keep him with his parents,so it is how it is.If I'm right and it is azzies we didn't find much info or rather detail pics of habitat,I think because the area is hard to get too

The viv is slow mate,I'm like this,I get embroiled in staring at rocks and habitat until I can see detail in my sleep,then start trying to ponder how the hell i'm going to put the mechanics together,ie build it. This one is so damn complex because of the rock structure ie strata . I also need to factor in specifics for the frogs to breed,it won't be much like what other folks do I guess I don't honestly know whether I'll be able to achieve what I'm after,we'll see I'll post once I know where the hell i'm going with it all. 

take care bro

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

i get ya fella, i have spent the last few days thinking over builds lol 

1. using a cork back tube i have, on one end where its been cut, its halfof where it would've branched off, so if you sit it down, looks like a fairy home lol asin a nice little door at the bottom. was going to use another piece of cork attached to the 'entrance' and make it look like a rotten stump with a rotten bit of root. Planting around this would've been broms on the inner lip of the top, giving a nice canopy down below inside (will get a pic of this beauty too, good cork, tho next month thinking bout buying two different size 5kg boxs :blush

2. using some of the egg crate i got, build up layers (could place tubs with holes and drainage tube to contain soil) and then spray these with the foam and cover, could be rock or the usual earth. BUT for this idea was thinking a big curved piece in one corner (either a quarter section -big curve- or a full round) and then use some other cork to look like roots tapering into the ground, then have another piece of wood pertruding from another layer like the root arching across a little 'valley'. be a nice little place for them to hang out under etc. 

what i need is about 100k and a zoo to work in lol

i'm torn between azureus and mossy's, there's something wonderful about both of them, but i think it'd be azureus, they gonna like another 60x45x60 ?


----------



## s6t6nic6l

soundstounite said:


> G'day Nic,thanks for the speedy reply
> Yeah I try on the pics Nic,having some issues getting stuff out of flickr,I've just moved to this new photo hosting site as weve filled photo bucket,I don't want to delete the old stuff here.With my English being what it is the pictures are important. I'll find my way,it's just damn slow at the moment.
> 
> The safety aspect you raise is very important mate,actually pondering working in a mask and glasses for hours,this one will be slow,against not using with the poly,might sway me to stay where I am. I simply have a little hoover right beside me with the poly,its messy as hell,but I'm not inhaling anything,plus I have a rock(no pun intended) solid method. Nic as I mentioned to Joe I've worked with kingspan before on sites,I can small fumes when cutting that stuff,it makes me wary to be honest,but it's tried and tested. Thanks kiddo food for thought !!
> 
> cheers bro
> 
> Stu


try the spaceboard 
this is great stuff and is my favourite material to work with :2thumb:
easily cut, sawn, sanded, sculpted etc without the issues with the kingspan/celotex and no ppe needed :no1:
just an example of how "workable" it is: stone pool/hide combo


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> i get ya fella, i have spent the last few days thinking over builds lol
> 
> 1. using a cork back tube i have, on one end where its been cut, its halfof where it would've branched off, so if you sit it down, looks like a fairy home lol asin a nice little door at the bottom. was going to use another piece of cork attached to the 'entrance' and make it look like a rotten stump with a rotten bit of root. Planting around this would've been broms on the inner lip of the top, giving a nice canopy down below inside (will get a pic of this beauty too, good cork, tho next month thinking bout buying two different size 5kg boxs :blush
> 
> 2. using some of the egg crate i got, build up layers (could place tubs with holes and drainage tube to contain soil) and then spray these with the foam and cover, could be rock or the usual earth. BUT for this idea was thinking a big curved piece in one corner (either a quarter section -big curve- or a full round) and then use some other cork to look like roots tapering into the ground, then have another piece of wood pertruding from another layer like the root arching across a little 'valley'. be a nice little place for them to hang out under etc.
> 
> what i need is about 100k and a zoo to work in lol
> 
> i'm torn between azureus and mossy's, there's something wonderful about both of them, but i think it'd be azureus, they gonna like another 60x45x60 ?


Joe,have you seen stemcellular's thread on Db,members frogs 'n'vivs,I think,hmm and a free mastertclass in dart pics,although the dude doesn't share much info on taking pics,proper eye candy. But if any one mentions cork tubes,I think that guy.LMAO,the guy knows a thing or two,vivs are ok:whistling2::lol2:

Tincs mate....food...floor area///microfauna,go for the biggest floor you can,height,not so important,they use all the height in any of our poxy vivs,i've seen pics of them 6' up a tree,but for me it's all about their floor. That's where they live that's where they really hunt,get that right and my leanings are you'll have happy frogs. Mosses I adore them,Shaz was asking why not, I want!! today actually,but I can't help with them. Damn attractive though,If not for the discipline of just darts,they would be first to be researched, bewilderingly beautiful to us both!! if you choose them speak to Theloderma on here,much to learn from him methinks.

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> try the spaceboard
> this is great stuff and is my favourite material to work with :2thumb:
> easily cut, sawn, sanded, sculpted etc without the issues with the kingspan/celotex and no ppe needed :no1:
> just an example of how "workable" it is: stone pool/hide combo
> [URL=http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad128/s6t6nic6l/corn%20snake%20viv%20project%203/81e4b916.jpg]image[/URL]


Cool I see your point mate,well made too with the pic,finished in what Nic,for others seeing this and wanting to achieve similar.

As I was saying to Joe, Nic I'm wrapped up in so many facets of this one it's very slow,but I'll look into the space board.I know their are caviats to detail in what I do now,conversely,I can ocassionally fool someone at point blank range,but there is that itch to do better. Part of the method i use actually relies on a weird form of hit and miss alchemy,in a way that inability to completely control the out come,leads to something more natural if ya like. It's difficult to articulate,but hell anyone that makes stuff wants to be a control freak of their methods.

Much appreciated buddy,oh Nic have a dig for vivarium works again DB,he's cracked it,but no methods shared and I'm sure they are cast,which isn't quite the same,for me, as the fine art:bash: of making a rock from nowt and carving it,mad buggers we are. Good or bad,being able to say I done that,holds a certain pleasure,especially on the ocassion it actually comes together
cheers

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

cheers Stu, i shall go digging, you know me, love a good rumage lol


----------



## Meefloaf

btw, who isn't tempted to get some of this zoopoxy stuff ?

on vivarium works, been looking at them regarding doing rocks and that fake tree idea, stuff looks great. but i prefer something solid, whats the theory on acrylic paint then is it perfectly safe or does it need sealing ? dont want shiny rocks lol


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> btw, who isn't tempted to get some of this zoopoxy stuff ?
> 
> on vivarium works, been looking at them regarding doing rocks and that fake tree idea, stuff looks great. but i prefer something solid, whats the theory on acrylic paint then is it perfectly safe or does it need sealing ? dont want shiny rocks lol


Honest answer Joe,I just don't know. I've painted stuff since being a tiny child allmost all wildlife, through to houses cars narrow boats ahh you name it mate,fine art to X got that t shirt.I'm wary of what paint contains.child safe arcylic have def been used . If I could paint on top of what I can actually do now,I think I could get pretty close to blagging rocks,but as yet my past has made me hesitant,it should NOT affect your view point. Shiny rocks,yup I hear you,not right,I couldn't live with that either,so that pretty much excludes pva and all varnishes even satin/matt,they don't cut it for me .I'm after something that only shows it's true colours when picked up. No weight being the only give away

Ain't much to ask is it

LMFAO

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

just wish we could get some zoo guys to pass up the info


----------



## Meefloaf

here's some pic's of my tank Stu, hoping to get some bits together to build a proper lid for it, thinking aluminium U profile 10mm with two sections of 10mm thick optiwhite and my fine mesh dividing - this is also where my uv light will sit over














































some of the pics are just with my uv running, i really am wondering about the amount of light that goes in there, on my days off they are out and about i must say, but sometimes come home, like tonight and they were both in the last pic tubes (they love it in there) and came out once i'm home, put some flies in for them and turned off my plain bulb. the problem i have is the light kicks off the heat, it's been moved because the broms at the back have gone red (my guzmania flower has died but it's pupping too) the heats good so i'm not freaking out about giving them heat, but the light is doing my nut in because i feel like they have too much of it.

as for the led strips, we do them at work, not in stock, but i shall try and see how much they'd cost


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> here's some pic's of my tank Stu, hoping to get some bits together to build a proper lid for it, thinking aluminium U profile 10mm with two sections of 10mm thick optiwhite and my fine mesh dividing - this is also where my uv light will sit over
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> some of the pics are just with my uv running, i really am wondering about the amount of light that goes in there, on my days off they are out and about i must say, but sometimes come home, like tonight and they were both in the last pic tubes (they love it in there) and came out once i'm home, put some flies in for them and turned off my plain bulb. the problem i have is the light kicks off the heat, it's been moved because the broms at the back have gone red (my guzmania flower has died but it's pupping too) the heats good so i'm not freaking out about giving them heat, but the light is doing my nut in because i feel like they have too much of it.
> 
> as for the led strips, we do them at work, not in stock, but i shall try and see how much they'd cost


Joe why 10mm,that's alot of glass for a top.it will probably cut down available light (uvb) too. John if your reading could you confirm that for Joe please

Joe the broms colour as a reaction to strength of light,a bit like sunburn,planting them up top not only gives you colourful broms but also areas of shade below,you could possibly create more shade by using a bigger leafed variety then what looks like ampullcea and not mess with your lights at all. Joe its a fine viv mate,so many different levels such a great climbing frame so the frogs can max available space. buddy i'm totally not saying that cause we are mates,it's cause you've done a fine job mate well impressed. I strongly suspect not too much light bro,it's so damn difficult ,because the exposure meter on a camera doesn't show the truth in a viv pic,but the behaviour seem about right,impossible to say though from here mate. As that ficus grows up the back wall that will also provide more shade mate. another though is to get some shade netting(not this mate but similar I can't think ATM),cut holes in in and stick it under the light on top of the viv,so giving instant dappled light,I've heard of this being used with summersi to give the low light levels they love as forest floor frogs,just be careful what you use I seen one fire around phibs this year.Honestly I'd stay where you are at the moment mate,but if one was to tweak anything,bigger broms maybe up top,viv has someway to go until it matures.,it won't be the same animal in 6 months that's for sure.

Sorry if this is all jumbled Joe I had a flu jab to protect the guy I work with,it's kicked the living crap out of me.Lowered my imunsystem,so now I've got some form of infection in my face which is up like a ballon. But it's not so bad Shaz keeps trying to put a lighted candle in my mouth and use me for halloween :mf_dribble: PITA

seeya

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

switched the lights around today so my ultrasun is in the arcadia and thus, off the top of the viv. also put in a few other bits of cork tube (1 up top left so a nice lil hiddy hole). And yeah, my camera does not seem like light lol to the eye doesnt seem too bad. The Broms in there are what i did trying to get the closest to Brazil as possible, because of the milk frog plan. My Neoregelia Brazil has two pups on it atm, so i shall possibly put one in place of the ampullcea (which will go on the wall lol)

as for the glass, d'oh, just realised how thick that is aha, just trying to find the actual frame materials from which to build a new lid to sit inside the exo, i'm worried about siliconing glass to the plastic and it dropping out into the viv

Flu Jab, eeek ! i get offered one every yr due to me having asthma, tho it has subsided since moving to cornwall, mm clean air. mate at work had it and ended up ill for a month. sorry to hear about the swelling, tho good timing for Halloween


----------



## frogfreak

Well, that settles that. I'm NEVER getting a flu shot! :gasp:

Get better, dude!


----------



## Ron Magpie

frogfreak said:


> Well, that settles that. I'm NEVER getting a flu shot! :gasp:
> 
> Get better, dude!


Everybody I know who's had one has felt like crap for a week or so- but I haven't actually seen any proof that it helps in the long run, either. I'd be happy to be wrong, though.

ML, your viv gets better and better all the time, mate, in case you thought I hadn't noticed! ;-)


----------



## Meefloaf

cheers Ron :2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:

this morning the guys were both hanging out in the same lil cork tube together


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> Well, that settles that. I'm NEVER getting a flu shot! :gasp:
> 
> Get better, dude!


Thanks bro,what a :censor:mare,it's wasted me buddy,first day off sick this ruddy year and all to help someone else,Dr told me one of his Dr mates got laid off for a week aswell,it's a good un this year that's for sure.
Thank god Shaz is completely unscathed by it,: victory:

cheers guys

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

ooorrraa found one baby RFB this morning,on trying to catch him found another,ha too week to catch both bloody hopless beaten by a frog weighing tenths of a gram:lol2: I think these are just too quick to be part of the batch I saw carried last t,so maybe more to come in a few weeks or even tomorrow and the next few days,but we are stoked with two more.

Bless









bring it on

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

wonderful 3 RFB kids now,really am thrilled by this,looks like the broms were the reason progress has been slow.Got a lot of pum kid pictures when I get time,but for now hopefully these rfbs


















take care

Stu


----------



## plasma234

gorgeous little frogs, congratulations :no1:


----------



## soundstounite

plasma234 said:


> gorgeous little frogs, congratulations :no1:


thanks Calz much appreciated,mate I have to ask how is the terrib?

Back to the pums,well I can't put into words what this means to me,these were a huge investment a project to fix them here,I also need to get someone else a female,to get him started,actually one of our finest breeders,dart keepers.So to be back on track is huge for me. 

We keep two morphs of pum RFB and cemetery basti two locales just a hill away from each other. I guess the best part of a year after morphing out our first pum,and keeeping all here I can completely dispell the rumour, myth, urban legend:lol2: that pums need to be kept in viv with parents,the bugger of it is,I can't say why this happens here and others struggle,it is just so frustrating ,I truly wish i had an answer.something I am doing is different,but what it is I don't know.My only loss now is a frog reared with parents,that may well change,but here we are today bar two kidlets I haven't yet got to: and I can show you this:




































































































I wonder if any of these will actually be visible,frogs I'm cool with,computers,haven't a clue LMFAO
bring it on 

Stu


----------



## Liam Yule

There's something very special about pums. Love them. Congrats pal


----------



## Meefloaf

that is sooooooooo pretty Stu ! well done to the proud parents (you and shaz, the froggies just did the tango)


----------



## soundstounite

Liam Yule said:


> There's something very special about pums. Love them. Congrats pal


Thanks Liam,all frogs are equal here ,nowt is more special,they are all just different,but on every level I take your point, thanks bro!!!

Each species has a learning curve,one has to get that, work with it, and grab some luck. I think they are all a bit heavy,but it's so tricky gauging a frogs weight when it's growing ,I sort of want a bit of excess on them while at this stage. Tricky when one has a group living together,one more ravenous,maybe a better hunter? than the rest. 

Liam if we go past all the viv stuff if we go past getting each and every facet right for a species,the individual make up of each frog comes to the fore,well that's where i'm at now.That might change with time,but at the rate it is being reinforced at the mo., somehow i doubt it.

Who knows bro always up for being wrong,but despite their diminutive size I do love 'em

thanks man

Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

soundstounite said:


> thanks Calz much appreciated,mate I have to ask how is the terrib?
> 
> Back to the pums,well I can't put into words what this means to me,these were a huge investment a project to fix them here,I also need to get someone else a female,to get him started,actually one of our finest breeders,dart keepers.So to be back on track is huge for me.
> 
> We keep two morphs of pum RFB and cemetery basti two locales just a hill away from each other. I guess the best part of a year after morphing out our first pum,and keeeping all here I can completely dispell the rumour, myth, urban legend:lol2: that pums need to be kept in viv with parents,the bugger of it is,I can't say why this happens here and others struggle,it is just so frustrating ,I truly wish i had an answer.something I am doing is different,but what it is I don't know.My only loss now is a frog reared with parents,that may well change,but here we are today bar two kidlets I haven't yet got to: and I can show you this:
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> I wonder if any of these will actually be visible,frogs I'm cool with,computers,haven't a clue LMFAO
> bring it on
> 
> Stu


Sorry Stu, but all you can actually do is to say that YOU personally haven't had any problems pulling 2 particular morphs of pum out of the parents viv. Sorry, but no myth busting here, just personal experience with 2 very closely related morphs.

Three times now I have pulled baby pums early. One time was a San Cristobal, the other 2 were black jeans. These were moved into mature rearing vivs, heavily seeded with springs etc, and fed regularly. All 3 times I lost the young ones. Where if I wait until they are at least 3 months old, I don't lose a one. I've heard the argument before about how they must have been weak frogs anyway, but honestly that argument can't be proven, I prefer to go with my own experiences.

It's not a myth but, it's just the experience of some keepers.

Regards

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> image
> 
> that is sooooooooo pretty Stu ! well done to the proud parents (you and shaz, the froggies just did the tango)


Yeah she is isn't she,note the she when I haven't a clue :lol2:.Joe she was the last of a group of four to morph out,way back around jan. but she is by far the biggest,I'm sure i ref'd this somewhere,here. These guys give us a froglet,so we can take little but responsibility for rearing from then onwards,getting an oophaga OOTW without mum and dad is no mean feat ,flick back to see my resounding failure with 3 rfb tads. But,they are said to be difficult to rear if one moves then from then parental enclosure ,that is my waffle at the beginning of this post,look for MOODS on the yank sites buddy,I know you are digging there.the irony is in the colour , i'm told 75% of cem bastis are orange,in the wild population,yellow is very rare,so either we had two parents throwing yellow by genetics a fluke,or their is a deficit in our husbandry that is causing a colour shift. 75% should be orange,but that isn't the case. 
I repeat we are doing something slightly different that has caused our good fortune,but what is it...UVB? wild grub? Ca all over the place,in iso in springs? vit A? rain water? ha ha or just good old fashioned stockmanship,ie attention to detail and graft,dunno bro,but it's there. 

Accepted wisdom says this shouldn't happen, we should not be rearing these!! I can't actually say why it shouldn't but that is what the reading says,but there they are^^ come tomorrow see then in the flesh,ahh but why?
Straight up my hunch is details Joe,all those tiny tiny things adding together,no shortcuts ,never a day when one of us doesn't graft,heads down balls to the wall stuff,get back what ya put in. 


I would really hope this doesn't come over as an arrogant tosser post,it's not that,it's a genuine effort to work out why the hell we are rearing these, when others say it should not happen,this is not a dig at anyone,it;s an effort to get more oophaga being bred...put it this way the last 3 folks i spoke to that have been to bastimentos,quoted almost no pums to be found...so we...the hobby need to know why one guy can pull(just ootw) and it works.We are not talking about an infinite supply,we ARE talking a finite resourse,tis terribly important we try to do our best by 'em,even if one makes mistakes,best effort is it, or little will be here in a few years.That is something I would love to be proved wrong on,very sad mate,I love these frogs we all do,but we need 'em in the wild too. Captive breeding alivates the need for more imports. I wish we had CB breeding programmes here for species/morphs

Joe this is RFUK complete madness,complete sanity all in the same breath,when we start to think as one,won't we be a force,odds against anything changing,very high,odds for change and achieving what we could,very small

if only bro!! 

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Sorry Stu, but all you can actually do is to say that YOU personally haven't had any problems pulling 2 particular morphs of pum out of the parents viv. Sorry, but no myth busting here, just personal experience with 2 very closely related morphs.
> 
> Three times now I have pulled baby pums early. One time was a San Cristobal, the other 2 were black jeans. These were moved into mature rearing vivs, heavily seeded with springs etc, and fed regularly. All 3 times I lost the young ones. Where if I wait until they are at least 3 months old, I don't lose a one. I've heard the argument before about how they must have been weak frogs anyway, but honestly that argument can't be proven, I prefer to go with my own experiences.
> 
> It's not a myth but, it's just the experience of some keepers.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ade


I think there is more buddy,above posts might make me ramblings clearer,I don't know why Ade,but i'm convinced there is something,I don't think weak frogs, is that point,I'm sure some are not viable,I don't think, well I know it's not two closely related morphs mate ,i can apply this further. But there is some reason I can't fathom.that is leading to different results,it isn't about being better then me or visa versa,it's about working out why!! 'Cause we both want to see more success,for others as well as ourselves.You don't spend all that time trying to give us a phib society for personal gain,this is the same!! 

Debate it with me Ade,but throw away two similar morphs,it's irrelevent,trust me on that bit at least.it isn't even a morph issue other species within the genus( oophaga ) can be reared out of parental viv,fact!! but why? this isn't a morph thing there is something else
do you use vit A..how oft
both use repashy Ca pus?
uvb?
food?
subs?
water?
Ca in with micro fauna?
what else Ade you got a good brain talk to me,this isn't a "oh i got lucky",might be disciplin,but i would doubt that would separate us

Big picture mate what's going on?

best

Stu


----------



## DrNick

I have nothing to add, not being a pumilio breeder, but could it be as simple as container size for the younguns? 

As we know, many young frogs have a tendency to sit under a leaf, keeping a low profile, and lap up whatever food items come along. In a large container with low food density that could be very little, even if you are feeding a lot. Further, if it takes a while for the food to make it to the frog by chance, whatever supplements you dust with could be long gone. For the 'trickier' Ranitomeya that I breed I start them off individually in tubs only slightly larger than a cricket box. They grow fast and get upgraded after a couple of months. I have no problems, others seem to struggle with more convenient 'grow on viv' methods. Nothing else differs (it seems...). Could be something along those lines?....

Nick

P.S. Of course, the response is, "why then do they do okay in the adult viv??". Answer - I don't know!!!!


----------



## soundstounite

DrNick said:


> I have nothing to add, not being a pumilio breeder, but could it be as simple as container size for the younguns?
> 
> As we know, many young frogs have a tendency to sit under a leaf, keeping a low profile, and lap up whatever food items come along. In a large container with low food density that could be very little, even if you are feeding a lot. Further, if it takes a while for the food to make it to the frog by chance, whatever supplements you dust with could be long gone. For the 'trickier' Ranitomeya that I breed I start them off individually in tubs only slightly larger than a cricket box. They grow fast and get upgraded after a couple of months. I have no problems, others seem to struggle with more convenient 'grow on viv' methods. Nothing else differs (it seems...). Could be something along those lines?....
> 
> Nick
> 
> P.S. Of course, the response is, "why then do they do okay in the adult viv??". Answer - I don't know!!!!


Thanks Nick,good points,I don't know the answers either mate,wish I did.

I would love to be able to get to the bottom of this though,I feel it is so important we all have options and details out there,to make the most of these pums. I have both read of and have first hand experience of agressive male oophaga,which for some might mean it is incredibly difficult to rear in the parental viv. Shaz and I are using small containers to get these guys going,similar to your rani I guess,very simple set ups,some leaf littler,a bit of fast growing,almost disposable plant(tradescantia in most cases) and a few whole leaves.

One thing I've pondered is whether the soil that LL falls on is in part helping us,some of that gets picked up with the LL,it is some form of clay.If anything my densities of micro fauna are on the high side,i suppose,a legacy from the tincs.

I also seed with 2 types of dwarf woodlice,plus the more obvious springtails.So the really tiny food available at the start of a pums life,before they get big enough to take flies is varied,all given access to Ca in the form of cuttle fish bone before hitting a grow out. I've always thought of woodlice as being high in Ca,don't know it as fact,but maybe there is something in that. I don't even know what % of that tiny frogs diet is baby woodlice. so this might be another dead end,but I suspect it is a contributing factor.

Damn don't I wish this was simple and we could get to the bottom of this,for so many reasons.

Much thanks for the thoughts Nick I'll gladly take any input on this one,it would be nice to have a method out there for all,
best

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

'Simple' would take all of the fun out of it...:whistling2:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> 'Simple' would take all of the fun out of it...:whistling2:


Yeah I know bro:lol2:,just want more choices and better results for folks,it helps if one is slightly mad though Ron.

It would be difficult taking the fun out though mate,seeing these little buggers come ootw will always make us smile,can't articulate it Ron,a mix of bewilderment and pure unadulterated joy. Shaz found that last RFB kid,ahh the look on her face:crazy:

oops

Stu


----------



## plasma234

soundstounite said:


> thanks Calz much appreciated,mate I have to ask how is the terrib?


Which one, the one with the sore feet or the one who had his little prolapse? :blush:

the one who suffered a mini prolapse is doing great, he is obviously the most timid of the three, but will hunt in the open, as long as i am still when i watch. 

the one with the sores, well since putting down dry leaf litter and pebbles for resting his wounds haven't gotten any worse, and look to be healing. he is the boldest of the three and the greediest. he still charges across the tank to get to a fly. he even eats with the front of the viv open and my hand in the viv if i am moving something, he is *really* bold :lol2:

the third one, who was the smallest and i separated, has my favorite attitude to him. he sits on top his coco hut or on his favorite leaf most of the day. if i open up the viv he will hide, but as soon as food goes in he is all over the place and catching food. 

i should have them into there full time viv in the next couple of weeks, i am really looking forward to it.



btw 










that frog is truly stunning, one of my favorite darts i have see to date.


----------



## DrNick

Glad the terrib is on the mend. Another thing worth baring in mind is that it really is worth developing a kind of 'padded cell' approach to viv design for them!! Hard, rough surfaces are best avoided with terribs because of the way they mindlessly throw themselves at anything that moves... Mine have numerous battle scars from ricocheting off walls etc when something catches their eye! I once made the mistake of throwing a couple of bluebottles in with them and when I came back it looked like a bomb had gone off in the viv..........

Nick


----------



## plasma234

yea, they do ping about the place, and having them in there growout viv isnt ideal. 

i will keep and eye on there behavior in the life time viv, hopefully being 4ft will negate some of the bumps on the glass and the back ground, but who knows :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Calz thanks on the basti.

yup it was the sore foot I was asking on,but a full rundown was even better to read through,:2thumb: Good luck with them mate,can't wait to see them in their new viv plus I'm thrilled things seem to be on the up!!!

Nick thanks for the thoughts,when a species one doesn't keep crops up,so do a specific set of problems,i learnt a bit more today

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Sometimes ya just get it all, damn it's rare for us,but every now and then eh: victory:
Got in from work last night,went frog watching as always get some sanity in me life,ooorraaa two more little stunning RFB kids found,5...bloody 5 in a week ,note to self mark up parentage,Spot x Big red. 

Oh happy days:lol2: and more but hey that's for another day.

Oh as well as that gonna have some dendros morphing very soon,we are right on the back of morphout now ,can't wait for the new atachis SB's and leucs.


Got word of some really exciting stuff to do with Teseros too,but I have too keep stum for a while,will tell all soon as I can. How does one provoke excitement here for one of the most outstanding projects our dart hobby might possibly see,bang on about it I guess.I have few hero's in my life very very few,this dude Ivan might well be one !! 


back to da froshe

seeya

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

stu, you've exceeded your message limit lol


----------



## frogfreak

Meefloaf said:


> stu, you've exceeded your message limit lol


PITA deleting them all, Stu. :Na_Na_Na_Na: :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> stu, you've exceeded your message limit lol


Yeah ,it happens bro, folks keep asking me stuff:lol2: Still haven't worked out why though, I'm mad and talk to frogs...why?

PM is sorted bro


Tell ya what Joe,don't ever work out how to make false rocks and post about it,bad idea mate,I reckon about 100/200 pm's have gone on that one since I put that up,it's bonkers mate,it's all here:lol2::lol2::lol2: So a gentle plea please no more rock pm's folks,:2thumb:

Hey ho got some new kids to care for, we have,some real nice SB's,just got the first tinc popped 4 legs and the first of the leucs is OOTW oorraaa off we go again,I don't think we will tire of the basic,so called "beginner darts" anytime soon,sure we have other stuff,but ahh a little leuc,bless

cheers buddy

Stu

Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

Stu, i'm not looking just yet but just wanting to get a feel for where you are at the moment ..

Looking for some Cems around mid/late january - ideally a couple proven pairs .. how are your kids coming on?


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> Stu, i'm not looking just yet but just wanting to get a feel for where you are at the moment ..
> 
> Looking for some Cems around mid/late january - ideally a couple proven pairs .. how are your kids coming on?



Hey buddy,all is well J,,but ,we haven't heard a call from a young frog yet at all.I would think you might have to look elsewhere,for early next year J,much as I would love you to have more from us,I think it is going to take much longer for us to get there,especially for proven.

J pums are so damn difficult to sex,body shape is completely no use,you can pull some semblence of males from a grey throat patch,blood vessels burst when a male is calling leading to this,that is if the male actually is n't calling when you see them. So barring eggs and a calling male,tis nigh impossible to sex them,even some of the most knowledgeable guys I have ever spoken to can't be sure. Bro you might know this already,but it's worth putting out there,so you have as much info as possible,oh there are said to be some folds on a male's throat,in the skin,stemcellular has some pics of this,on a thread on DB about wild pums in bocas,but I still couldn't work it out even seeing those and that guy takes stonking pics too. So whom ever you buy from mate,be clear you want a sexed pair,or you might end up with all males. It isn't a slur on anyone mate,but they are not cheep frogs and it can take months and months to get sorted if one ends up with male high,as they don't necessarily call, straight off,because of male dominance supressing the lesser dominant frog.So just be aware mate. I have at least two mates with groups of male pums,from one hell of a time now,it's really frustrating this!!

good luck bro

Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

Ok, thanks Stu. I would still like to hold on for your frogs as i know they would have been given absolutely the best care and attention.

How many cems have you got now? are they 'close' to adults? Do you already have some reserved etc? or would i potentially be first in the queue.


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> Ok, thanks Stu. I would still like to hold on for your frogs as i know they would have been given absolutely the best care and attention.
> 
> How many cems have you got now? are they 'close' to adults? Do you already have some reserved etc? or would i potentially be first in the queue.


Thanks mate that's very kind. J we have 4 older,probably spoken for, then you then another guy to potentially sort out as you've asked me before on this ages back,but the vast majority of the kids are quite young as the frogs took a good deal of the summer off,when it was hot. Once the whether cooled and it started raining,we have seen far more breeding activity,both with the the cems and rfb,so I do really think it will be a good while.But saying how long,I just don't know J . I would love to be clearer,but I know i can't. That trio of mysties we have held for ages now,I thought they would have bred much earlier,I know others I let go have,so that factor is swaying my thoughts aswell. I'm not actually sure on numbers J,somewhere around a dozen I guess,got little tubs of pums all ways at the mo. They breed when they want it seems and naturally production is tiny compared to what we both see in the dendros.

best

Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

Understood, no problemo. I'd still like to keep my hat in the ring for some, especially if anything changes with regards to the first, oldest 4.

To be honest it's probably a good thing, it gives me time to set up the viv right, let it mature and not rush into things because the frogs are available right away.

Thanks Stu, keep me in the loop for sure!

J


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> Understood, no problemo. I'd still like to keep my hat in the ring for some, especially if anything changes with regards to the first, oldest 4.
> 
> To be honest it's probably a good thing, it gives me time to set up the viv right, let it mature and not rush into things because the frogs are available right away.
> 
> Thanks Stu, keep me in the loop for sure!
> 
> J


No worries J, of course we'll keep you in the loop,it is how it is,with these guys. But yeah get that viv up,you'll have enough on I would imagine anyway and a viv running for a good while is no bad thing,gives plenty of time for tweeking before frogs especially with a large display like you have on the cards:2thumb: Can't wait to see it actually mate!!

take care

Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

You and me both mate! I'm itching to get started although Claire keeps telling me we've got more important things to worry about with our first ever house ... i said i know .. but i've already bought the tele so lets move on to the frog tanks!

Stu i think it's about time you posted a complete new set of pictures of the frog room, all the tanks, breeding tubs etc .. i for one want to see how all your tanks have matured, can't remember the last time we saw pics of the tanks!


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> You and me both mate! I'm itching to get started although Claire keeps telling me we've got more important things to worry about with our first ever house ... i said i know .. but i've already bought the tele so lets move on to the frog tanks!
> 
> Stu i think it's about time you posted a complete new set of pictures of the frog room, all the tanks, breeding tubs etc .. i for one want to see how all your tanks have matured, can't remember the last time we saw pics of the tanks!


Don't understand these ladies mate,what's more important than big telly and big vivs:mf_dribble:

Bare with me buddy we are due an update,although not much has changed really,just mountains of ficus to be trimmed and mountains of work being done,although not all in the right order.I've got a shed load of froglet pics to show too,ha ha hence not wanting to talk rocks much more:lol2:,done me time on that now,I'm pre-empting the next build I'm in the throws of there:whistling2: I suddenly inherited craftyness with my new found agedness,gotta say being a 50 year old kid is cool though,it messes with folks,I like that: victory:: victory: 

best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Kinda happy today.

Got Shaz her hopeful two male azzies,very dark a german line not much like their big ol' paler lass,so a good hope for fairly unrelated frogs after all this time. To have this picture possibly complete will bring me so much joy if it all works out.

But a graphic example to me of how much it takes to rear tincs well!! The new lads are small,part of the trade was some of our young atachi kids,they dwarfed the azzie boys,ours say 14 months azzies 2years plus. So emotions are twofold joys for Shaz,but a graphic reminder of how tricky a tinc can be to get right. 

I'm philosophical on this, the genes are there we can get the lads right during QT,and the two lines will give stunning kids,hopefully strong and easily capable of reaching the right size given the right care,which i really am starting to think we can now. The boys are tucking in to some grub pics will follow,ahh man I hope this works for Shaz,I'm taking a bit of a chance on them,but it's an educated chance,not a complete punt in the dark,hard getting what you really want here as one starts to learn the ropes. Might fall flat on me face ,but we'll see.

Ha, another stunning RFB appeared last night,wicked, getting there huh!! The new SB's are corkers,just moved to grow out,leucs coming through now fairly thick ,but not so fast:lol2: Other two attachis about to burst,third now OOTW
looking good,i guess pics will follow but for now,I'm done

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

awesome news on the azzies ! they are gorgeous frogs (J's are some beauts) they get some big eh. i'm not surprised yours dwarfed them stu, the frogs yo brought to baks would've been a better mode of transport back to cornwall than the pug106 :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> awesome news on the azzies ! they are gorgeous frogs (J's are some beauts) they get some big eh. i'm not surprised yours dwarfed them stu, the frogs yo brought to baks would've been a better mode of transport back to cornwall than the pug106 :lol2:


 Trying to get me lass exactly what she wants has been real hard Joe,these are her "special frogs". Buddy these tincs are "out there" to get right,done a bit now,learnt a bit,not found anything harder really,tis the disciplin mate,that constistancy,is so hard to achieve over a two year period,day in day out. It's weird this in a beginner's frog but it is honestly what I see at this time. 

Buddy what you saw is on the way,it's not a completed mission,you really need to see WC frogs in the flesh to give a true comprehension of just what I'm blabbing on about. Mate, I so appreciate the words,I wouldn't want to appear ungrateful,I totally am grateful on a major level. I'm trying to convey to newer guys what i'm slowly starting to realiise myself,but pics wont do it. One needs that "SEEN" perspective. 

Joe tincs are some of the best frogs out there to keep,they have this tameness and character about them,they seem to like us ,they come bounding up to us,it's more than just "I need food you old sod ",but by the same token seeing a two year old,be dwarfed isn't really right,it's not a testament to me bro,it's to those like that aged canuck:Na_Na_Na_Na: that have helped me get here ,then me trying my best to help others,for these cracking frogs. I haven't done it yet mate,got them there,but i'll try like a *** to pass on how we got thus far and maybe we might see less of these frogs about here that are smaller than they should be.
There is a very serious side to this joviality. Too many small tincs out there mate,seen everywhere,not just here,I think there might just be a way around that!! I also feel,it really might be worth banging away for a couple of years to get them where they should be,hell,there might be another 20years to sit back and breed them
Lets face it who doesn't want to put a dart on a leash and be pulled along.

softly softly catchy big froggy:lol2:

thanks buddy lovely words:notworthy:


Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

going to enjoy My leucs for a fair bit, but Azzies are on the list, but not until i have the space for a frog room (2015)

i know you've mentioned it before, but i'm guessing you're talking about the fact that wild caught/wild specimens are much much bigger than the one's seen in the captive trade. and i'd imagine you've got a few theories on what is causing this. over-breeding ? small enclosures ? under feeding ?


----------



## frogfreak

soundstounite said:


> Trying to get me lass exactly what she wants has been real hard Joe,these are her "special frogs". Buddy these tincs are "out there" to get right,done a bit now,learnt a bit,not found anything harder really,tis the disciplin mate,that constistancy,is so hard to achieve over a two year period,day in day out. It's weird this in a beginner's frog but it is honestly what I see at this time.
> 
> Buddy what you saw is on the way,it's not a completed mission,you really need to see WC frogs in the flesh to give a true comprehension of just what I'm blabbing on about. Mate, I so appreciate the words,I wouldn't want to appear ungrateful,I totally am grateful on a major level. I'm trying to convey to newer guys what i'm slowly starting to realiise myself,but pics wont do it. One needs that "SEEN" perspective.
> 
> Joe tincs are some of the best frogs out there to keep,they have this tameness and character about them,they seem to like us ,they come bounding up to us,it's more than just "I need food you old sod ",but by the same token seeing a two year old,be dwarfed isn't really right,it's not a testament to me bro,it's to those like that aged canuck:Na_Na_Na_Na: that have helped me get here ,then me trying my best to help others,for these cracking frogs. I haven't done it yet mate,got them there,but i'll try like a *** to pass on how we got thus far and maybe we might see less of these frogs about here that are smaller than they should be.
> There is a very serious side to this joviality. Too many small tincs out there mate,seen everywhere,not just here,I think there might just be a way around that!! I also feel,it really might be worth banging away for a couple of years to get them where they should be,hell,there might be another 20years to sit back and breed them
> Lets face it who doesn't want to put a dart on a leash and be pulled along.
> 
> softly softly catchy big froggy:lol2:
> 
> thanks buddy lovely words:notworthy:
> 
> 
> Stu


Stu,

Best of luck with them!! :2thumb:

Please pass on any info you gain along the way, no matter how insignificant you may _think _it may be. Sometimes it's little unnoticed details that make perfect sense. 

Cheers guys!


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> going to enjoy My leucs for a fair bit, but Azzies are on the list, but not until i have the space for a frog room (2015)
> 
> i know you've mentioned it before, but i'm guessing you're talking about the fact that wild caught/wild specimens are much much bigger than the one's seen in the captive trade. and i'd imagine you've got a few theories on what is causing this. over-breeding ? small enclosures ? under feeding ?



yup Joe tincs are notorious for not reaching their wild brethren's size in captivity,yeah I would have some thoughts wouldn't I:lol2:
Joe, the basic theory is two fold,firstly tincs take a LONG time growing,I'm talking TWO years,BUT in the hobby we can get the fat reserves up and get them breeding much earlier than this.So instead of growing they breed and never get to the size they should or are capable of. The second part is this they need sustained almost constant grub I would say almost daily feeds,maybe a bit smaller than usual,say than what we give to our other frogs,and let them mop up leftovers,next day.But the overal food intake is increased by frequency Those are the real basics hard core parameters of what i'm working up.

Now i also see supression if stocking densities are too high in too small a space,this stuff evolves as the kids grow,i'm working in tubs as growouts as big as the usual size vivs,climbing frame ain't so good,but microfauna and floor area are on a par. So the premise to feed and split to smaller and smaller numbers is I feel a good part of this aswell. 

Joe lets start at the top,good supps good grub mature frogs to breed from,so we start with a good strong egg and embryo,not first eggs they lay,chuck the first few clutches. So the absolute best egg one can work up from.I'll throw in the name repashy and extra vit A Incubation:around low mid 70'sF 

Tadpoles,as varied a diet as possible,all mine got wild live grub too,that was the start of the frog's life,keeping a tad fit by catching live food,is a weird concept,but they can do it,plus of course what is lost from something converted from live to dead by man,our tads diet,included two types of tetra
chips cyclops-EEZE NLS phib pellets mossi larvea bloodworms,live!! other midge larvea,even baby waterboatmen,plus the dtritus algae whatever that grows on an oak leaf,and the tea made of aldercone,oh duckweed too.

K ids started on springtails,extra Ca fed there too to the springs,themselves.Stocking densitiy to one of our wham tubs no more than 6.done more,didn't pan out,they started to grow slower than lesser numbers,individuals react to each other,not always favourbly,then mels hydei ff maggots wild grub.tincs are small food specialists,it don't matter if the are big frogs they like small stuff and lots of it see above..

As they start to get to an age where they might breed,split to either same sex groups or possibly better individual containers. Mate this is where it gets hard and this is where we as keepers get stretched,8 tincs is nothing really,a couple of groups of four,cool.But 8 tubs of one frog is a whole different ball game. this would be around the 14 month mark I suppose. Now at close this stage again nearly all of us are going to be saying wow my first eggs yippee,but I think we might need to stay the course and prevent that and prevent breeding, with separation of those sexes,while still giving the grub.At this stage I pretty much think food intake will drop slightly,but growth will hopefully continue.

That is where I'm at now Joe so I can't complete this or say this is a working method that I can adhere to or recommend,but you've seen them and have some semblance of where all this is heading I can compare to what they should be by looking across our room,I'm never really confident Joe,but I'm in the ballpark with around 6/8 months to go.

Regarding this: when we started I always just thought its our diet,we just can't replicate nature,later I really started to wonder, why one species is so renowned for being stunted in our hobby,what adjustments to care could be made to allivate this,above is roughly where I am now. I mentioned disciplin,I think this one takes that real hard core day in day out stuff,other species might not be quite so demanding regarding that grub,other ways sure maybe,but not with the food. This is a favoured beginners frog and how many times in your short time here have you seen a guy asking about culturing,when he has tincs,with that comes the obvious question how many days did those frogs not get what they might have.Please don't think I am putting anyone off these fantastic frogs,they are wonderful,but man ya gotta feed 'em.

Me being me I'm bound to say one other thing,i'm driven to be my personal best for our frogs,not better than anyone else,non competitive,so we both try to "go out there" and see WTF happens,if this gets our tincs there,only some credit is for us,the rest really is down to the other guys more experienced whom have taken time to help us,given us pointers,can't say we really follow others methods,but they make us think and LOOK!!

Glenn thanks bro,by all means add, counter debate, what ever,the above.

Regarding the new blues, I can't put them to where I think they should be now at two years plus,but I'm pondering the gene pool,for our kids,more than the size,I think the size is man's doing,I am hoping to undo that next generation,alot of azzies here from one source,so my side of Shaz's frogs has been yearning for those genes,even if they just had to be THAT COLOUR and THAT many bloody spots:no1: bless her:lol2: I think her mind's changed on colur too,but if ya tell anyone I'm dead:whistling2:

best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> Stu,
> 
> Best of luck with them!! :2thumb:
> 
> Please pass on any info you gain along the way, no matter how insignificant you may _think _it may be. Sometimes it's little unnoticed details that make perfect sense.
> 
> Cheers guys!


oh PS i see everything JEEES:Na_Na_Na_Na: ok as long as it's really close:mf_dribble:

YEAH RIGHT:lol2:

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

Great observations, Stu

The only thing that I could add is they seem to grow much bigger when on their own. Impractical, I know, but it's what I've noticed and purely accidental, as usual. It makes sense when you think about it. Unless it's breeding season, which is only a couple of weeks/year, they're complete loners in the wild.


----------



## Meefloaf

aha, this is why i love asking you questions Stu, i get a little gem of a post like the one above. Cheers for the reply man, much appreciated and gives me loads to think about in the future, hopefully your 'experiment' will bare some wonderful fruits as it already is.

as for your tubs stu, regarding the climbing frame, some, handily siliconed plastic piping ? you even bend it with a little heat i know. with this, i know americans that are worried about plastics and frogs etc


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Post of the day for me!!!

so good to read!

John,




soundstounite said:


> yup Joe tincs are notorious for not reaching their wild brethren's size in captivity,yeah I would have some thoughts wouldn't I:lol2:
> Joe, the basic theory is two fold,firstly tincs take a LONG time growing,I'm talking TWO years,BUT in the hobby we can get the fat reserves up and get them breeding much earlier than this.So instead of growing they breed and never get to the size they should or are capable of. The second part is this they need sustained almost constant grub I would say almost daily feeds,maybe a bit smaller than usual,say than what we give to our other frogs,and let them mop up leftovers,next day.But the overal food intake is increased by frequency Those are the real basics hard core parameters of what i'm working up.
> 
> Now i also see supression if stocking densities are too high in too small a space,this stuff evolves as the kids grow,i'm working in tubs as growouts as big as the usual size vivs,climbing frame ain't so good,but microfauna and floor area are on a par. So the premise to feed and split to smaller and smaller numbers is I feel a good part of this aswell.
> 
> Joe lets start at the top,good supps good grub mature frogs to breed from,so we start with a good strong egg and embryo,not first eggs they lay,chuck the first few clutches. So the absolute best egg one can work up from.I'll throw in the name repashy and extra vit A Incubation:around low mid 70'sF
> 
> Tadpoles,as varied a diet as possible,all mine got wild live grub too,that was the start of the frog's life,keeping a tad fit by catching live food,is a weird concept,but they can do it,plus of course what is lost from something converted from live to dead by man,our tads diet,included two types of tetra
> chips cyclops-EEZE NLS phib pellets mossi larvea bloodworms,live!! other midge larvea,even baby waterboatmen,plus the dtritus algae whatever that grows on an oak leaf,and the tea made of aldercone,oh duckweed too.
> 
> K ids started on springtails,extra Ca fed there too to the springs,themselves.Stocking densitiy to one of our wham tubs no more than 6.done more,didn't pan out,they started to grow slower than lesser numbers,individuals react to each other,not always favourbly,then mels hydei ff maggots wild grub.tincs are small food specialists,it don't matter if the are big frogs they like small stuff and lots of it see above..
> 
> As they start to get to an age where they might breed,split to either same sex groups or possibly better individual containers. Mate this is where it gets hard and this is where we as keepers get stretched,8 tincs is nothing really,a couple of groups of four,cool.But 8 tubs of one frog is a whole different ball game. this would be around the 14 month mark I suppose. Now at close this stage again nearly all of us are going to be saying wow my first eggs yippee,but I think we might need to stay the course and prevent that and prevent breeding, with separation of those sexes,while still giving the grub.At this stage I pretty much think food intake will drop slightly,but growth will hopefully continue.
> 
> That is where I'm at now Joe so I can't complete this or say this is a working method that I can adhere to or recommend,but you've seen them and have some semblance of where all this is heading I can compare to what they should be by looking across our room,I'm never really confident Joe,but I'm in the ballpark with around 6/8 months to go.
> 
> Regarding this: when we started I always just thought its our diet,we just can't replicate nature,later I really started to wonder, why one species is so renowned for being stunted in our hobby,what adjustments to care could be made to allivate this,above is roughly where I am now. I mentioned disciplin,I think this one takes that real hard core day in day out stuff,other species might not be quite so demanding regarding that grub,other ways sure maybe,but not with the food. This is a favoured beginners frog and how many times in your short time here have you seen a guy asking about culturing,when he has tincs,with that comes the obvious question how many days did those frogs not get what they might have.Please don't think I am putting anyone off these fantastic frogs,they are wonderful,but man ya gotta feed 'em.
> 
> Me being me I'm bound to say one other thing,i'm driven to be my personal best for our frogs,not better than anyone else,non competitive,so we both try to "go out there" and see WTF happens,if this gets our tincs there,only some credit is for us,the rest really is down to the other guys more experienced whom have taken time to help us,given us pointers,can't say we really follow others methods,but they make us think and LOOK!!
> 
> Glenn thanks bro,by all means add, counter debate, what ever,the above.
> 
> Regarding the new blues, I can't put them to where I think they should be now at two years plus,but I'm pondering the gene pool,for our kids,more than the size,I think the size is man's doing,I am hoping to undo that next generation,alot of azzies here from one source,so my side of Shaz's frogs has been yearning for those genes,even if they just had to be THAT COLOUR and THAT many bloody spots:no1: bless her:lol2: I think her mind's changed on colur too,but if ya tell anyone I'm dead:whistling2:
> 
> best
> 
> Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> Great observations, Stu
> 
> The only thing that I could add is they seem to grow much bigger when on their own. Impractical, I know, but it's what I've noticed and purely accidental, as usual. It makes sense when you think about it. Unless it's breeding season, which is only a couple of weeks/year, they're complete loners in the wild.


Which points to those interactions I noted I guess buddy. You've actually proved this out for you Glenn,Jon (rusty) too,so if we can add another to the bag,then possible it gives the newer guys here a method too. If one is rearing it is very impractical Glenn,OMG isn't it just!! But,if one buys some kids to rear up and breed for one'self and one would like some big ol' tincs stomping about,then putting that extra graft in to keep them separate,might just be the way to go,plus no where near as tricky,very doable. I guess that's why I've hammered this of late mate. Such great frogs I so want us to see more monsters here,that are CB,real passionate about this one, I am!!

Stu


----------



## DrNick

...and the importance of optimising captive breeding methods and line management to get us away from WC/'farmed' imports is nowhere better illustrated than on a recent thread on a different forum (regardless of the usual nonsense and drama that seems inevitable when Americans and frogs are brought together...). 

I have seen a lot of dead animals in my time, but images like these really hit home for me. What a waste. Many of these shipments are completely unnecessary and the losses are therefore, IMO, unnecessary... 

People often say that the demand for new species/new morphs will always exist and therefore WC will continue, but most of the imports we see are not new species or morphs. Better husbandry, to produce more wild-type frogs, and better record keeping to allow for true line management _could_ all but eliminate WC imports and losses such as these - most of which I'm sure we never even hear about....:


----------



## ronnyjodes

That second photo is horrific Nick. It's photos like that which make you realise that a lot of these WC shipments just see these frogs as things to be bought and sold for profit, there's no compassion for the animals welfare and they're just commodities. So sad.


----------



## DrNick

You buy some frogs, you look after them as best you can, spending time and money. You do your best for them and beat yourself up on the odd occasion you lose one, and then you're reminded of the numbers that must go in biohazard bins at importation facilities and national borders every year and think, why do I bother?? It's like remembering to switch the light off when you go out and then finding out the whole street's tapped into your power supply! 

Doing our best for the animals we keep counts for nothing if we do not at least try to curtail the reliance on imports - in my opinion. The imported frogs on sale often look in pretty good nick - that's why they're on sale - so people can be lulled into thinking that the frogs are rounded up, given a packed lunch and sent off Virgin Atlantic to Frankfurt where they are met by relatives and transported post haste to the reptile shows of Europe. Sadly I suspect that this is not the case! Like you say, they are nasty pictures but it's probably best that they're out there.....

Sorry to put a downer on your thread Stu!

Nick


----------



## ronnyjodes

I'd be intrigued to know for every 10 or so WC frogs that make their way to new owners in perfect health and live long happy lives how many end up dead on arrival like the ones in those pictures.......


----------



## Meefloaf

Is that from the frog warehouse thread nick?


----------



## frogfreak

Meefloaf said:


> Is that from the frog warehouse thread nick?


Dart Den • View topic - Patrick Nabors takes over all C.R pumilio imports ?



Exactly why I won't buy a WC frog.


----------



## DrNick

^^^ Thanks for adding the link Glenn. I wasn't sure if it's allowed. Guess we'll soon find out!

It's easy to lose sight of the big picture in threads like that because there are so many issues it's difficult to know where to start! Dead frogs, lack of transparency, double crossing, chytrid. For me though it's pretty simple. Get sustainable captive breeding going and it all becomes a non-issue....

I admit, it is more difficult to push that point of view in the states where WC come in cheap. But in Europe where they generally command a premium, people still go for them with all of the associated issues AND don't exploit the opportunity to set up documented lines............. Grrr.


----------



## Meefloaf

i feel like getting a plane and cracking some skulls....

FROGMEN ! ASSEMBLE !!!!


----------



## frogfreak

DrNick said:


> ^^^ Thanks for adding the link Glenn. I wasn't sure if it's allowed. Guess we'll soon find out!
> 
> It's easy to lose sight of the big picture in threads like that because there are so many issues it's difficult to know where to start! Dead frogs, lack of transparency, double crossing, chytrid. For me though it's pretty simple. Get sustainable captive breeding going and it all becomes a non-issue....
> 
> I admit, it is more difficult to push that point of view in the states where WC come in cheap. But in Europe where they generally command a premium, people still go for them with all of the associated issues AND don't exploit the opportunity to set up documented lines............. Grrr.


I'd like to add that there's nothing wrong with buying WC frogs and getting them established. That is the key! Therefore, no need for more WC. 

But, it makes me sick to my stomach that THOUSANDS of Pumilio were brought in last year alone. Why am I not seeing CB frogs for sale from these imports?!


----------



## soundstounite

I'm so bloody sad I don't really know where to start, saw the pics a few hours back Nick,they'll haunt me tonight,have been all day, but I'm staggered that this is the result of a legit operation,that I know about,it is mind numbing Nick I can't articulate. I really thought this was all good,sure money orientated,no conservation ethic,but I really did think being done properly, mortality like this makes me question myself,on a major level. Honestly,I've had this horrific gut churning feeling about 3 times now,the realisation for the first time that large oophaga being clobbered on a major scale lehman's being pushed by smugglers for our hobby,the photos of the mysties at Lima,both a result of smuggling. the lack of cem bastis in the cemetery is legit (ISH),but again I personally keep and AM responsible.

Colin as our mod or any other mods,reading,I would like this link that Glenn provided to stay please,i'm sure there isn't a problem with this here,but as this has been posted here on our room thread,if my opinion means anything,on such things,then you have my point of view.

Nick totally no apologies in any shape or form my thanks,you have. Real hard this Nick,if this room thread is able to raise awareness,both for the good and bad our hobby can do,let's get it out there .Sure i'm a happy guy that likes to laugh and make folks smile,but FACTS like this we should all know about. EVERY frog we keep stems from WC. 

I can't get my head around the mortality Nick,the importer ,ok previous it seems, is no idiot!! The guys across the pond have the ability to ship frogs,some with live arrival as a given!!! IE there is a method out there to ship darts seemingly around the planet,so I UTTERLY do not understand how that can't be articulated to the guys in Costa Rica,,I'm flummoxed Nick,just seems like completely needless waste. These aren't even cheep frogs,so even if dosh is the be all and end all,economic sense is out the bloody window on this.Yeah,dosh it isn't my goal,I'm trying to throw away my abject sadness at seeing all these dead pums and rationalize, but I just can't get my head around 3 imports with big losses,one isn't excusable ,but 3 is F:censor:ing with me ON A MAJOR LEVEL 

I keep some WC,I guess as I learn more,i'm putting more thought into what it takes to actually live with myself for buying them and how to do right by them,I suppose it is establishing those lines you speak of. Essentially here that is almost going to mean buying more of the same at some stage,I can't work with another atachi breeder for example, so now we are leaning towards more than one tank of a morph,but these pics make me question everything we do. Somewhere in morass above Nick, you said this:

"You buy some frogs, you look after them as best you can, spending time and money. You do your best for them and beat yourself up on the odd occasion you lose one, and then you're reminded of the numbers that must go in biohazard bins at importation facilities and national borders every year and think, why do I bother?? It's like remembering to switch the light off when you go out and then finding out the whole street's tapped into your power supply! 

Doing our best for the animals we keep counts for nothing if we do not at least try to curtail the reliance on imports - in my opinion. The imported frogs on sale often look in pretty good nick - that's why they're on sale - so people can be lulled into thinking that the frogs are rounded up, given a packed lunch and sent off Virgin Atlantic to Frankfurt where they are met by relatives and transported post haste to the reptile shows of Europe. Sadly I suspect that this is not the case! Like you say, they are nasty pictures but it's probably best that they're out there....."

I feel the same, and having just messed up myself a simple stupid mistake with yes a WC frog,plus one of my favourites,has had me beating the living daylights out of myself,not my beloved tinc lass,but our basti male,almost to important for words given what is coming out of bocas.

To move forward here I think we really need to start group efforts on some frogs,all frogs,but sadly we'll get few takers,things like leucs are pretty secure,azzies I strongly suspect less so,but neither are really applicable to the WC debate,but what about everything else,let me turn this over if you are working on a breeding project with more than one separate line,please tell us,not 3 lines in one tank,but more than one line kept separately from another.

Nick i just think this isn't happening in blighty and very very few are thinking like this,I so want to be proved wrong,but I bet i won't and with that the above will continue,but I'm with you Nick,this should not continue,try as I might, I still can't figure why this one ever happened in the first place

Godammit ain't this all just so bloody hard

Thanks Nick

best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> I'd like to add that there's nothing wrong with buying WC frogs and getting them established. That is the key! Therefore, no need for more WC.
> 
> But, it makes me sick to my stomach that THOUSANDS of Pumilio were brought in last year alone. Why am I not seeing CB frogs for sale from these imports?!


Hey bro,
Tricky isn't it Glenn,first paragraph,I still agonise on that choice.

Second paragraph,I utterly hear you Glenn,mind using myself as an example,although not straight forward, when one put's in the word thousands!!!

I have RFB from june(thereabouts) 2012 then again some more later,then all the QT sexing lark,which meant months of QT,then the frogs have to get jiggy,then make up for debatable keeper error: does one remove a failing brom,that may well hold tads? So nearly 18months later,we are just starting to really get going. but I haven't let an F1 pum leave here yet! But they are here:whistling2:

So what I'm saying is basically,yeah dude you're probably on the money,but there might be a bit of a caviat,for some complete nutters trying to get it right,TRYING being the key word. It takes time some of this Glenn, BUT 

Another 12 months,and you are completely right, and it IS desperate,full stop period,no debate. 

My head hurts

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

this frog is very pretty, what is it ?


----------



## chrism

Meefloaf said:


> this frog is very pretty, what is it ?
> 
> image


Atelopus Spumarius I believe.

Cool aint they.


----------



## soundstounite

chrism said:


> Atelopus Spumarius I believe.
> 
> Cool aint they.


I'm not great on these Joe Chris may well be spot on,but I can't confirm my first thought was Hoogmoedi but I don't know what I'm talking about:lol2: here's a useful link for anyone keen on these

atelopus.com - Welcome to Atelopus.com

Teseros da Colombia

Guys have a look here to see more about the Teseros project,we all might need to help Ivan get over the next hurdles, so even if one can only spare a bit, that would be fantastic. I think it is so important that his project works out, be great to see bonefide Colombian frogs here. I would imagine if he can keep going until the large oophaga permits come through, the the project will hopefully fly. Ivan has had to change Colombian Law to get this far,so has been forced to release frogs in the order the Government wants it done. He's been at the since 2006 I believe,I hope this doesnt't slip away,that would be so sad after him getting so far

Please support this if you possibly can,little bits add up

Tesoros De Colombia | Indiegogo

I would like to also say me mate Richie at rainforest vivs will be handling frogs coming into the UK,this is fantastic,I'm made up for him,he doesn't post much here now,but helped us from the off with what we are doing so here's a lin k to Richie's site,
Rainforest Vivs

Exciting times

Seeya

Stu


----------



## chrism

Hahah, I dunno Stu. 
I'm sure it's an Atelopus though! Ha
Where's Richie?!


----------



## soundstounite

chrism said:


> Hahah, I dunno Stu.
> I'm sure it's an Atelopus though! Ha
> Where's Richie?!


Learning to speak Colombian Chris?:lol2: Lets hope it's better than his English though,never have been able to understand the guy,always saying tidy or something..LMFAO he'll kill me now. Beaten to death by an oriental leek,worse ways to go.

Yup def atelopus not spumarius barbotini or zetki,beyond that...HELP:lol2:

Joe, James will know Tsupplies,he's the only guy I know to have kept Atelopus here,apart from me welsh mate:whistling2:

Stu


----------



## DrNick

soundstounite said:


> I can't get my head around the mortality Nick,the importer ,ok previous it seems, is no idiot!! The guys across the pond have the ability to ship frogs,some with live arrival as a given!!! IE there is a method out there to ship darts seemingly around the planet,so I UTTERLY do not understand how that can't be articulated to the guys in Costa Rica,,I'm flummoxed Nick,just seems like completely needless waste. These aren't even cheep frogs,so even if dosh is the be all and end all,economic sense is out the bloody window on this.Yeah,dosh it isn't my goal,I'm trying to throw away my abject sadness at seeing all these dead pums and rationalize, but I just can't get my head around 3 imports with big losses,one isn't excusable ,but 3 is F:censor:ing with me ON A MAJOR LEVEL


Hi Stu - sorry, not getting much time on t'interweb these days. I see the thread has moved onto a less macabre topic which is good! But thought I would just go back briefly to say that IMO no shipping is risk free. I bring in broodstock for the lab maybe twice a year and every couple of years I will have issues with packages being stuck in customs for days, or left out in the cold etc. With the number of amphib shipments that are made each year I would be amazed if significant losses are not reasonably common. As an anecdote, I recall one importer saying to me once how they liked getting frogs from UE because they usually arrived with no mortaility. The implication being that this is not the norm...

These things happen, no matter how good and well-intentioned the system is. And that is without taking into consideration all of the other factors involved in this particular case. This is why for me the species, its conservation status and the physical health of individuals are almost side issues. Even if these boxes are ticked, we should be prioritising our own captive populations here, to sustain them in the long term, rather than jumping on imports - particularly when they are imports of species/morphs that already exist in the hobby. It's just the easy way out. Hell, many of us, myself included, refuse to ship frogs within the UK. Why then are we okay with paying for them to be shipped half way across the planet??

It is also one of the reasons that (to follow up on your second post), while I admire what Teseros are doing and truly hope that they succeed, I have never understood how they plan to make money in the long term - unless we as a hobby remain reliant on imports. If they want to send out frogs of legit origins for us to breed and enjoy, that's great, but it's not a business model. The only way it can work economically is if the end consumer (us) is encouraged to purchase imported frogs over domestically captive bred ones and that is the opposite of what I hope for. (Or if they quickly make it onto the 'sacred' species that punters will pay exorbitant sums for.) It's a bit of a mind bender aint it.....

Nick


----------



## soundstounite

DrNick said:


> Hi Stu - sorry, not getting much time on t'interweb these days. I see the thread has moved onto a less macabre topic which is good! But thought I would just go back briefly to say that IMO no shipping is risk free. I bring in broodstock for the lab maybe twice a year and every couple of years I will have issues with packages being stuck in customs for days, or left out in the cold etc. With the number of amphib shipments that are made each year I would be amazed if significant losses are not reasonably common. As an anecdote, I recall one importer saying to me once how they liked getting frogs from UE because they usually arrived with no mortaility. The implication being that this is not the norm...
> 
> These things happen, no matter how good and well-intentioned the system is. And that is without taking into consideration all of the other factors involved in this particular case. This is why for me the species, its conservation status and the physical health of individuals are almost side issues. Even if these boxes are ticked, we should be prioritising our own captive populations here, to sustain them in the long term, rather than jumping on imports - particularly when they are imports of species/morphs that already exist in the hobby. It's just the easy way out. Hell, many of us, myself included, refuse to ship frogs within the UK. Why then are we okay with paying for them to be shipped half way across the planet??
> 
> It is also one of the reasons that (to follow up on your second post), while I admire what Teseros are doing and truly hope that they succeed, I have never understood how they plan to make money in the long term - unless we as a hobby remain reliant on imports. If they want to send out frogs of legit origins for us to breed and enjoy, that's great, but it's not a business model. The only way it can work economically is if the end consumer (us) is encouraged to purchase imported frogs over domestically captive bred ones and that is the opposite of what I hope for. (Or if they quickly make it onto the 'sacred' species that punters will pay exorbitant sums for.) It's a bit of a mind bender aint it.....
> 
> Nick


Nick, intrinsically I agree with the first two paragraphs,maybe what i didn't really get over was how that level of said mortality was messing with me. Nick I see graphically how frogs get stressed after a move,it's a big deal,so it's easy to see how one could loose some,but if we take UE as our bench mark for excellence,then even with mess ups at the borders,3 imports all with major issues(mortality) still ain't right. But shortly I need to ask or maybe find out,as if I could :lol2:,what level an average mortality for an import is. It's livestock Nick there will always be losses,I understand that,hell i've done "ickle aminals " since a child and for me day job on a huge scale,so by now if I don't have some semblance of what's going on I should be shot. But this level time after time,just shouldn't be so,unless and this is possibly the case the frogs are so cheep at the start and to expensive at the final destination,that an importer can still make a buck with major losses,which is horrible.but then so are those pictures!!

Teseros:3rd paragraph

Where to start Nick? Well are you(WE) in the minority of our hobby or the majority? Ie do you talk about breeding projects to sustain a frog in captivity how many others do? So straight up I'd ask this,what is our hobby's expertise at sustaining frogs in captivity? where are our breeding programmes. Look Nick they tried this stateside TMP's,complete failure!! let alone here!!
So succinctly put our worldwide hobby ain't great at working together, we both know we have a huge chance with these new panamain(sp?) imports,but what do we see. The only way these lines will be formed is possibly one guy putting his head down grabbing multiple pairs and saying soddit and grafting it out himself, same stateside,a commitment to a frog. Should that be so,oh hell no!! I'm with you mate we need to be talking to each other,working together,but we are totally not. So would that be the card Teseros is pondering? would Ivan be thinking on those ubiquitos large oophaga and the multiple morphs there of who knows,that would sustain him for yonks,one morph a year,through the world ? I don't actually think he's thinking of any of my above points,i genuinely think he's just trying to do the best for his country's frogs,trying to find a way to keep them there and supply the folks that want them, being a conservationist,almost an idealist. honestly Nick I admire him on a huge level,sometimes guys with blind dreams make things happen.

So to the crux of it,are we the hobby,all countries gonna fix frogs in captivity or are we gonna rely on imports? Are we the hobby already proving our selves with the recent pums from panama ? If we the hobby have the chance to get legit large oophaga would we take the soft option or pay the bucks? So will we the hobby stump up funds to keep the guy afloat that can bring that? It is a mind bender dude!For me I wanna see this guy succeed,I'm built in with blind optimism,both for our hobby and for Ivan,if he doesn't succeed,what are the consequences? 

He can survive by bringing us others Nick(if we give him the chance),that's the simple bit,now will we step up,graft on them,the onus is here Nick at our door. Sure I want us to get it right and not be reliant on transporting frogs around the world,but if we cannot fix them ourselves,then I would rather we lost a few(as hard as that is to say) and had monies raised for the wild frogs habitat,than go the smuggling route where folks care less and mortality is higher. 

Don't matter which way we look at it Nick,we have to find means to secure wild frog habitat,that is goal one,then we can keep banging away at the rest,all is second to that,loose that habitat,we loose all.

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Please help Ivan at Teseros!!

Ok lots of heavy stuff of late,. So lets go back to just why we stand amazed,something weird happened while taking these pics,I have no idea,but thought new life coming ootw is about as good as it gets. So some, so called beginner frogs,i actually loath the term with some passion, all are precious all bewildering,got to a point now where I can show the advanced but not today huh,today is these little guys 'cause they bring us joy,for that i love 'em,we love 'em,two kids playing darts,not good is it:Na_Na_Na_Na:

SB's cor you guys need to see these in the flesh OORRAAA so tiny but just how do they do so many colours 




































Hmmm an atachi,got to get his elder sibling ootw now,










How about the most humble bless 'em



















Now should I throw in something else?

Ahh hell just one sneaky advanced froggy,LMFAO like they are any different! 'cause none of you have seen this pic before ,ok if you have you can show me,i'd love more of this,but i've never seen this before so that makes it fun and that's what i want from this post just fun and frogs,pure joy at what we can do and what we could do 'eh











take care guys,but help Ivan help us

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

pardon me being simple stu, whats going on in the last pic ?

also, stop posting pics of awesome looking frogs ! i've not got the space for them all lol that first guy looks almost metallic


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> pardon me being simple stu, whats going on in the last pic ?
> 
> also, stop posting pics of awesome looking frogs ! i've not got the space for them all lol that first guy looks almost metallic


dunno bro,I finks it a larvea or a bromalad or sumfing

Sorry Joe needed happy frogger mode not deep shit for a while,I earn't it,the bugger is that isn't helpful frogger mode:Na_Na_Na_Na: but I've never seen that pic posted anywhere, ever before, so it's just a treat:2thumb:.

i can't help posting awesome looking frogs Joe,I'm actually diluting their awesomeness with crap pics:gasp:. Auratus are metallic joe seen in the flesh,bewilderingly so,nowt does blue and green like auratus,ahh mate little tank grown pan special is just so cool,must get pics,memo to self:bash:

I'm sorry buddy i'm not being helpful at all,but I have got one :censorff big smile on my face,so that's something...INIT. for an OLD guy:Na_Na_Na_Na:.

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

It's okay fella, i've come to understand 'Stu' language:lol2:

enjoy the moment fella, great when hard work shows signs of paying off and all that energy (and i wont say wasted as it's been well spent) has been worthwhile.

Joe


----------



## chrism

What's the secret advanced frog Stu?!


----------



## chrism

Oh- and that a ton of feeder eggs- little bigger ain't going hungry!!


----------



## frogfreak

Nice pics, Stu!

Are those feeder eggs in with that tad in the last pic?


----------



## soundstounite

An axolytl Chris:lol2:,fascinating huh.


Joe what are you saying dude,my best subject has always been eng lang:whistling2:

night guys,but support Teseros,with ya hard earned lets not let this one slip away 
Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

i am tempted by a t-shirt


----------



## Meefloaf

if this works, awesome, just look up and down this road at the stone/greeny bit on the actual street view, inspiration at curb side

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=tr...F-8&ei=NbKwUvqDINGShQeWu4CIBw&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAg

if not, type in truro chapel hill and then drop the orange man on the green look section of the road


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> if this works, awesome, just look up and down this road at the stone/greeny bit on the actual street view, inspiration at curb side
> 
> https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=tr...F-8&ei=NbKwUvqDINGShQeWu4CIBw&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAg
> 
> if not, type in truro chapel hill and then drop the orange man on the green look section of the road


I think I get and got there buddy,give me 5 mate will be back,something strange going on,oh yeah Tshirt is good:notworthy:

best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

I'm very unsure where I'm at with this Joe,but here is initial progress

viv 60x60x60cm










Joe here is a video of potential inhabitants, look at the redhead lowland,valle de cauca what I'm sort of messing with as my habitat template,it's all very early yet,despite the time taken I might just get so far and start over,but I want to see where I end up first,it's real infancy stuff,despite the ruddy time:lol2:

Colombia 2012

best

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

the only thing i can think, is to get it to look right, you'd need to go taller and perhaps triangle in that corner and the across the back, dunno, hmmmmage

btw, regarding our "mysterious" pm, what you are saying is, i need to get playing with some rock work of my own


----------



## soundstounite

I can't go too high,there is a planter cut into rock at back,i'm visualising the plants going up and folding back over,if I make the rocks too high at the top no room for plants,plus don't want rocks extending too far forward,too much shade, The mental picture is once the plants are grown in,got some DAMN BIG broms awaiting,but as before Joe in no way sure about anything yet,tis a big ol cube for us,but once one puts that against that bank tis a drop in the ocean Then all the froggy needs need factoring in too, laying site climbing frame and the more forward layers to bridge some of the space in the center,mind I've got a cracking bit of winding oak that is sized up. left side probably adiantums,again planters are there,but not very visable It's almost impossible at this stage articulating just what madness is in me bonce mate.

yeah mysties well that's what i did Joe tried to pop a mountain in a glass box,but they possibly couldn't live there without those nudicollis,
Dendrobates.org - Excidobates mysteriosus

cheeps bro

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ey up,merro chrimbo guys,cheers for the kindness through the year,have a good 'un,for anyone I've spoken to or just reads this malarky.My special thanks to those that gave up their time just to help us or say lovely stuff,while we weathered the sh*t storm early in the year:no1:.

Here is the completed carved poly-work for the 2'cube,can't believe no one commented on the hardstone vids:gasp:




























Stone me but got all the rocko on too,mind 4 hours and I'm frozen,got knows what fun will be had with the epoxy stage,lmao,but I can chill now while it all cures

merry chimbo guys

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

thats a rather nice piece of wood Stu, coming along nicely


----------



## ronnyjodes

Stu, I love your build style, anybody could have posted those shots and I'd have known they were yours :2THUMB:


----------



## soundstounite

Hey Jon, hey Joe,marry chrimbo guys:mf_dribble:

Joe always a good bit of wood when it's free,some cracking oak out there if ya looks hard an' slow:2thumb:.

Jon,you mean formulate a very simple method,then try as hard as possible to make it as difficult as one possibly can for oneself,ahh aged folks huh:lol2:

Thanks guys
Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

you make me want to buy some glass....


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> you make me want to buy some glass....


Lost me bro,:no1:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

lol to give making my own a go so i can play around with it all open like that. 

nearly came home with some appletree the other day, christmas dinner round the missus' grandparents house ha


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> lol to give making my own a go so i can play around with it all open like that.
> 
> nearly came home with some appletree the other day, christmas dinner round the missus' grandparents house ha


Hmmm so I don't always make life impossible for my self then,thanks buddy:no1:

I really thought cutting glass was the first skill a phibber learnt,just me then,lmfao.

Those rocky thangs covered in rockoflex,damn look at it all,I must be bloody bonkers,ok ya knew that:lol2:




























A little detail to show one of the planters hidden from the front view











Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

the joys of epoxy soon for you. you cover them fully in flex+epoxy, then silicone back in place ?

mate at work going to show me how to cut glass at some point hopefully


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> the joys of epoxy soon for you. you cover them fully in flex+epoxy, then silicone back in place ?
> 
> mate at work going to show me how to cut glass at some point hopefully


 Ha yeah, epoxy in cold places plus the dust factor,walk in the park:bash:. Yeah joe whole lot done out of viv,then hope with all the extra it still fits like a glove when it goes back.the left hand side has a reinforcing bit of plastic angle inserted behind it all,then all the individual bits siliconed together,the back,bits, will be siliconed to the viv as the RHS. All have been rebated to fit around the cork surround. the rocks on the floor might just be placed,not attached(apart from the far left:the two doglegs. Wood made to measure,rocks cobbled around it so it's unattached/removable,keeping the weight down, to make moving the viv easier.,just too many bits dude:lol2:

Some little leucs just before a move for Daz and Ron










Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Some little leucs just before a move for Daz and Ron
> 
> image
> 
> Stu


You don't give up, do you mate! :lol2::lol2::lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> You don't give up, do you mate! :lol2::lol2::lol2:


Never done nuffin:gasp:,just heard a little voice from a small orange and black puddin' whispering "show us to Ron....shhh....show us to Ron"

What can I say :lol2:

But tbf,you are right,I really don't give up,it's a personality flaw mate,always had it,ahh bless 'em,just still so damn special Ron, wonderful as tiny kids, leucs

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

you will give in Ron


----------



## Ron Magpie

Meefloaf said:


> you will give in Ron


That's what the Gestapo said. And the Stazi. And the KGB. And MI5. AND THEY WERE ALL WRONG!!!!



So there.

EDIT: I forgot the CIA- they were wrong, too.


----------



## Meefloaf

Ron Magpie said:


> That's what the Gestapo said. And the Stazi. And the KGB. And MI5. AND THEY WERE ALL WRONG!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> So there.


i think i'll start a fundraiser to turn up at your house with a nice planted viv and some leucs


----------



## ronnyjodes

Or we could just send Adam round


----------



## Meefloaf

just need to get them in the same room, with frogs for sale


----------



## soundstounite

Here's that viv pretty much wrapped up background wise,i'm still pondering another bit 'o' wood to create an "upper story" for movement and planting,but haven't yet had a dig through our supplies.

LHS










Central view










RHS










HNY

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

looking brilliant stu !

as for wood, i'd suggest either putting another piece at the base where the other one 'goes into the ground' and have it arching up and into that back left corner. a piece going across that corner or down from the back left under the others arc and down to the right there. possibly even a load of thinner twigs almost like tiny roots in that back right rock work. i had a nightmare with mine when looking at the vertical space that didnt have much in it (for tree frogs)


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> Here's that viv pretty much wrapped up background wise,i'm still pondering another bit 'o' wood to create an "upper story" for movement and planting,but haven't yet had a dig through our supplies.
> 
> LHS
> 
> image
> 
> Central view
> 
> image
> 
> RHS
> 
> image
> 
> HNY
> 
> Stu


 Stu the finish on them rocks is something else, they look crazy real... are you still sing the powdered stone bits??

looks great mate


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> looking brilliant stu !
> 
> as for wood, i'd suggest either putting another piece at the base where the other one 'goes into the ground' and have it arching up and into that back left corner. a piece going across that corner or down from the back left under the others arc and down to the right there. possibly even a load of thinner twigs almost like tiny roots in that back right rock work. i had a nightmare with mine when looking at the vertical space that didnt have much in it (for tree frogs)


 Hey bro,

cheers for the first bit and the constructive thoughts Joe,they is most appreciated,my 'ansom.

Its the space vertically left corner Joe that is messing with me, See i can see the broms i have in mind. A lot of that void will start to get filled anyway,but access across the top is what I'm pondering. Joe what i'm trying to get wedged in my dumb old head is how they will move around this and how i can make them work(out). The rockwork has a climbing frame that should provide access upwards plus the laying site,but,whether i should have a bit more of the hollow filled is my ponderance. I really wanted to get a pic of the other viv,next to this one,the other is a 50sw base 40 high,the difference betixt that and a 60cube is monsterous,these perpsectives won't be coming over in these pics . Tis all about those multiple layers mate,for these guys,as always, fink froggy get hurt head:lol2:
Bloody 3D jigsaws,I should have stuck with a hamster:whistling2:

HPY

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> Stu the finish on them rocks is something else, they look crazy real... are you still sing the powdered stone bits??
> 
> looks great mate


Hey bro,

Yup granite,same method as usual Dane,only thing really altering is pigmentation. The crazy bit is these have a touch of sparkle,who knows if it will be visible in situ. They are ok mate,I'm still of that mind that I could do better,but hey that won't change

Thanks for the knindness Dane 

HNY

Stu


----------



## RhianB87

All went tits up!


----------



## soundstounite

RhianB87 said:


> This is ok for a dart right? (its a dart frog honest :whistling2: ) I think it may need a plant or two
> 
> image


I can't seen,the picture kiddo,Rhian i'm hopeless,but some of the guys might help,if we both say purdy please:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## RhianB87

soundstounite said:


> I can't seen,the picture kiddo,Rhian i'm hopeless,but some of the guys might help,if we both say purdy please:2thumb:
> 
> Stu


Piece of crap computer!! :bash:

Never mind... I was trying to be funny and make fun of a past post but its lost now :blush:

Carry on with your day, nothing to see here (literally!)


----------



## Meefloaf

stu, pics dont show it too well, but i imagine you'll get it, see what i did here, i was so worried about getting climbing frame and it looking right because i didnt want it looking like almost set in a line across the viv.


----------



## Ron Magpie

I really like that- makes the whole thing three-dimensional! :2thumb:

*starts looking critically at some of his own aboreal vivs*


----------



## Meefloaf

i'm still haunted by that right hand side tho, from that cork tube there is nowt in it, i was attaching cork tube to the sticky out bit at the front, but it looked weird, this is why i like no top of viv as i can put my hand in and look on top through the it and see the space being filled etc


----------



## soundstounite

RhianB87 said:


> Piece of crap computer!! :bash:
> 
> Never mind... I was trying to be funny and make fun of a past post but its lost now :blush:
> 
> Carry on with your day, nothing to see here (literally!)


Lmao,well I have to say I often utter those words Rhian,but unfortunately it's normally me to blame, as above i'm bloody hopeless with them,:lol2:

But, as as far as coming here and having some fun,bring it on mate, :2thumb:

Have a great new year anyway kiddo,ha I'll throw a thanks for trying at ya too

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> i'm still haunted by that right hand side tho, from that cork tube there is nowt in it, i was attaching cork tube to the sticky out bit at the front, but it looked weird, this is why i like no top of viv as i can put my hand in and look on top through the it and see the space being filled etc


Yeah i'm with you Joe and thanks for the pics, Ron is spot on I feel about the diagonal wood adding to depth and I also see the "bare" side that you do . We oft create little ledges, ha we call 'em clouds,simple bits of poly,carved and covered,also look back at my foam planters mate,but neither would help you,now. A thought might be to cut down a cork round to about 3 to 4" high and stick an oakleaf/panama ficus or another climber in the cork planter,site that about a third in from the front. planter being slightly elevated from the subs will help with drainage,climber will cover the bare cork and provide a climbing frame too,plus the capacity to wedge in the odd film can as either a depo site or hidey hole. Bro you could even cut a ring in half if a full round is to obtrusive.
Other options might be to pin a couple of ferns to the cork,these boston type I use with a bit of moss wrapped around the roots,to retain initial humidity might help lower down or maybe orchids higher where there is more light. The great thing about dart vivs is the humidity really helps us to be able to pin a plant almost anywhere,(within reason) a bit of tlc while it gets it's feet in abit of moss and off they go

Joe , for our vivI'm being wary right hand side,these broms are closing in on a dinner plate for a start. Second I want some half decent air movement around them,as they are for oophaga i'm trying to stay away from disrupting that too much. What I mean is I don't want broms dying with tads in,plus part of the climbing frame in this will be the plants/broms. Once I plonk then in their rough final positions I'll have a better idea,they actually might not fit without some judicious pruning mate. 

Cor bro ain't this difficult to do on the web,it would be hard enough trying to explain if we were both stood beside each other staring in the viv:lol2:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

the plants are completely different now stu in that tub on the right side there is a sword brom at the front (where the branch is at the bottom) and inside the tube itself i have placed a smaller cork tube (where they sleep) and a large clumb of ficus is growing out of this area around too. on the ground to the left is a massive silver bergonia arcing over

i do also have a mother fern at the back middle in a nut with some soil etc but it seems a bit leggy, that or my massive leucs using it as a climbing frame has taken its toll (they use it to hop along from the branch to their bed)


----------



## soundstounite

Hmmm ,when you keep a lot of something,very occasionally one see's something that somewhat alters one's point of view. Recently we had another post about fungi/'shrooms which often leads to a dicussion about their potential to be harmful to frogs. Now like most here I would say no problems,not once have I ever seen a post of concern not anywhere. 

So last night we were just generally checking kids and misting,doshing out a few springs if needed,but not really a full on feed. I have noticed a build up of mycellium,well more like little yellow dots,,in the bottom of one male tinc's tub.This has been building up over the last few days. He's a big chap,over a year old,normally would be out to greet us ,but not last night. So we lifted his cocohut to find him absolutely covered in this yellow dust,maybe spores maybe just the mycellium,hunched down looking real sorry for himself. The speed of the build up didn't really concern me at all,I just thought nature would take it's course the huge woodlice pop would get it under and everything would be fine,just like we all would expect.Not this time!!

Little guy was thoroughly washed with a handmister and thank god we are like we are and have always got a new clean tub set and ready to go,popped him in a glass,into new tub,this morning he's out bouncing around like a good 'un.

But, I honestly think he might not of got through the night as the dust seemed to be desicating his skin. you could almost see how much he wanted that wash. Shocking really to see him like that,we try to do the best for them , I should have seen it coming,but I guess none of us would. I would think I have just seen a perfect storm of events, a one in a million freak happening.Though why just one tub everything in it microwaved as normal for our kids. I would ponder whether that is part of this,but he's been in there for a few months now,so I just don't get it. 

All our new tubs go through a mold cycle we set them then add the woodlice and springs a few days later a few good mists the mold clears,all good.Live and learn huh!!!!

Sorry no pic,we didn't mess around,contents of tub burned in the wood burner, froggy sorted immediately. We'll watch him now,but judging by this morning things are looking good for him.



Stu

ps sorry Joe, for the derailment,but it looks like all i thought of you beat me too anyway,:2thumb:


----------



## Meefloaf

fingers crossed he'll be fine, weird how it took on so quick


----------



## Meefloaf

p.s


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> fingers crossed he'll be fine, weird how it took on so quick


Well yes and no buddy,our vivs/tubs are perfect for fungi warm moist low airflow!!Bang in I always see molds really quick on set up of either,but normally that goes away as quick I guess due to the micro fauna and for big frogs we don't skimp on this either,totally freaky Joe quite possible a complete one off.

Thanks for the well wishes mate,he looks fine just had another check

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

I think I'd be a bit more concerned in a tub in any case- there is a lot more of a balance in a full-on viv. Good thing you spotted the problem in time, Stu!


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I think I'd be a bit more concerned in a tub in any case- there is a lot more of a balance in a full-on viv. Good thing you spotted the problem in time, Stu!


Thanks Ron,you are probably right,mind what is it 14 or so vivs now and god knows how many tubs and one running a goodly while too. Really mate i'm baffled,I haven't seen any like this before,one would think one would. No method changes. Little fella is out hunting like nowt happened. If I was stingy on the micro fauna then I could see it occuring,but,we stuff shed loads in.Ha it kills me when i clean one out(a tub) and throw all those woodlice away,it seems such a waste.But we have always given new kids a fresh clean start. Mind I saw it happening and just never twigged it could be a potential problem at all. I'd haul myself over the coals for missing something ,or hold my hands up if I made a mistake,but this one went straight over my head. 

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Thanks Ron,you are probably right,mind what is it 14 or so vivs now and god knows how many tubs and one running a goodly while too. Really mate i'm baffled,I haven't seen any like this before,one would think one would. No method changes. Little fella is out hunting like nowt happened. If I was stingy on the micro fauna then I could see it occuring,but,we stuff shed loads in.Ha it kills me when i clean one out(a tub) and throw all those woodlice away,it seems such a waste.But we have always given new kids a fresh clean start. Mind I saw it happening and just never twigged it could be a potential problem at all. I'd haul myself over the coals for missing something ,or hold my hands up if I made a mistake,but this one went straight over my head.
> 
> Stu


You spotted it when it mattered. :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> You spotted it when it mattered. :2thumb:


Stockmanship Ron? The need to go to one's animals with no reason other than gut instinct and maybe just the pleasure of being with them? See that's the ticket,you know it, we know it,maybe "Old skool", but the moves can be the difference. 

He's looking fine mate a totally different frog in 24 hours,we have just gone through all as a proper feeding day,I'm sure as can be at this stage all is well.
thanks for the thoughts bro :notworthy:

Stu


----------



## RhianB87

Can someone build me 3 pretty vivs for my frogs and crestie :2thumb:

I will pay in tea and cake. : victory:


----------



## soundstounite

RhianB87 said:


> Can someone build me 3 pretty vivs for my frogs and crestie :2thumb:
> 
> I will pay in tea and cake. : victory:


Well given time I could,but anymore cake and I'll probably pop:lol2:

Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

Hey Stu,

Your pums, do you keep more than 1 male together? if so, do you experience any serious aggression? what size viv are they in? 2ft cube?


----------



## soundstounite

Cornish-J said:


> Hey Stu,
> 
> Your pums, do you keep more than 1 male together? if so, do you experience any serious aggression? what size viv are they in? 2ft cube?


Yup RFb J. At one stage we had a group of 4:2,but I didn't know that until the got in the viv. sticking them all together was the only way to confirm sex.,and that took a while. viv size 50x50x60high. J what became very apparent that one frog that never called while in QT and was the smallest,actually became the dominant male,he was very agressive,somewhat perplexing really as he was my concern in Qt. My last hope of a female I actually watched him throw about,so for just a while,thought I had 5:1,but it was all part of his courtship. He bred a couple of early clutches and I still have him,affectionately called "ickle b*strd". My efforts continued to swap out the other male for a female,but I ended up getting a basti instead as after a year or so of twoing and froing I gave up and went with what i have now 3:2. So LB got pulled and is separate at the mo,the other 4 2:2 are living quite happily and breeding. LB will get paired up to an unrelated female,as she becomes available from our stock bred here.

So basically I wanted to give you a complete picture before answering you with this,yup you can keep them in groups,BUT whether that will work out is all down to the individual frogs involved,that's first hand. It might also lower productivity having 2 females together,eggs sometimes get munched,I've seen that too,but while we are getting the results we are I'll leave be for the mo

Ha that didn't give you a clear answer,but I don't think there is one. If you introduce frogs to your pair,have a back up plan mate,just in case

best

Stu


----------



## Cornish-J

Thanks Stu, much appreciated mate as always.


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

Cornish-J said:


> Thanks Stu, much appreciated mate as always.


ill second that i have got my 1st pair of pums last week and all hands on knoweldge is greatly recived  im getting brave looking at slightly bigger frogs :shock:


----------



## soundstounite

No worries mate, 'erm actually mates:lol2:


Hmm i forgot to add "fungus tinc" seems absolutely unfazed by the aforementioned drama. PHEW!!


Just for a second I'll backtrack and say the Teseros De Colombia campaign is still running,please give if you can:

Tesoros De Colombia | Indiegogo

Here is Ivan talking about his project,please be aware the sound is very poor quality,you might need headphone or a quiet room to hear this properly,but well worth a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hZ74IREMNBQ




There is also another way to support Ivan,ie by buying his frogs,Richie B at rainforest vivs is taking orders for the first shipment of legit Colombian frogs ,for a very very long time,please contact him via his web site.

But as I'm unable to find more detail there to link,here is a brief overview

Rainforest vivs will be collecting our fist shipment from Tesoros de Columbia in March. This shipment needs to succeed to enable the next shipment around June containing the Histrionicus and Lehmanii.
These are all legal captive bred frogs with papers
Rainforest vivs are taking deposits now for the following

Dendrobates trunctataus £45ea
Phyllobates aurotaenia yellow £60ea
phyllobates aurotaenia green £55ea
Phyllobates terribilis yellow black foot £120ea
Phyllobates terribilis orange black foot £130ea

Lets not let this slip through our fingers guys

Thanks for listening

best

Stu


----------



## DrNick

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> im getting brave looking at slightly bigger frogs :shock:


Trust me, if you're doing okay with with those fantastica you should be fine with pumilio (and just about anything else!!).


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

DrNick said:


> Trust me, if you're doing okay with with those fantastica you should be fine with pumilio (and just about anything else!!).


well thier all alive so that must be a good thing mate, not had any breeding, still working out if i have males and females still. i still have all of them just all seperated in 3 diff tanks


----------



## soundstounite

DrNick said:


> Trust me, if you're doing okay with with those fantastica you should be fine with pumilio (and just about anything else!!).


Nick,just out of curiosity summersi being fantastic(I do realise you don't have summersi yet) but would you envisage any great difference in difficulty,betwixt them and the frogs you keep. bit of a strange question really, but something might come out of your reply

best

Stu


----------



## DrNick

soundstounite said:


> Nick,just out of curiosity summersi being fantastic(I do realise you don't have summersi yet) but would you envisage any great difference in difficulty,betwixt them and the frogs you keep. bit of a strange question really, but something might come out of your reply
> 
> best
> 
> Stu



Hi Stu - as always, 'don't know' is really the answer. But I suppose the trap I fell into there was suggesting that there are 'easy' and 'difficult' species. We both know there is more to it than that, but I stand by the statement that R. fantastica are at the difficult end of the spectrum. This is mainly due to their speed, flightiness and male/male suppression which can be imperceptible to the untrained eye, but potentially lethal.

As you say, R. summersi are very closely related but then so are R. reticulata and they present few of the same problems. All retics I have kept have been pretty bold, quick (but not fantastica quick) and tolerate being in mixed groups well. I would say they are 'easier' than fantastica.

I'm confident in making these broad statements on the basis of species, not just particular frogs, but I wouldn't want to guess what applies to R. summersi having had no experience. I have heard that they are quite shy and tricky to breed, but do okay in groups. The irony is that the fants are among the easiest Ranitomeya to breed in my experience (as are R. reticulata) but we know of your problems with R. summersi. Who knows!

Nick


----------



## DrNick

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> well thier all alive so that must be a good thing mate, not had any breeding, still working out if i have males and females still. i still have all of them just all seperated in 3 diff tanks


It's good that you separated them, but still a bit of a pain I expect. As I recall you had a female Varadero and a couple of unknown Yumbatos (and the lowlands)? I have quite a few Varadero offspring at the moment and some of these may be sexable if you decide to expand.

Best of luck with them!

Nick


----------



## soundstounite

DrNick said:


> Hi Stu - as always, 'don't know' is really the answer. But I suppose the trap I fell into there was suggesting that there are 'easy' and 'difficult' species. We both know there is more to it than that, but I stand by the statement that R. fantastica are at the difficult end of the spectrum. This is mainly due to their speed, flightiness and male/male suppression which can be imperceptible to the untrained eye, but potentially lethal.
> 
> As you say, R. summersi are very closely related but then so are R. reticulata and they present few of the same problems. All retics I have kept have been pretty bold, quick (but not fantastica quick) and tolerate being in mixed groups well. I would say they are 'easier' than fantastica.
> 
> I'm confident in making these broad statements on the basis of species, not just particular frogs, but I wouldn't want to guess what applies to R. summersi having had no experience. I have heard that they are quite shy and tricky to breed, but do okay in groups. The irony is that the fants are among the easiest Ranitomeya to breed in my experience (as are R. reticulata) but we know of your problems with R. summersi. Who knows!
> 
> Nick


Yeah I know mate,not having both i did put you on the spot a bit:blush:, I strongly suspect summersi are not so productive,just,more periodic breeders,having an egg with an embryo I guess would be irrelevant to what I have already seen with ours. 

Nick could you give us as much detail on that difficult to observe,male on male supression please,I'm devious,i thought there might be something to dig into. But overal I concur as I worte to J recently,with pums,much to be made of the individual's nature/temprement,within a species

Take your time bro I know your somewhat pushed

Stu


----------



## DrNick

soundstounite said:


> Take your time bro I know your somewhat pushed
> 
> Stu


Got slightly distracted over the weekend by a hoard of Roman coins - well, two... (coins that is, not hoards...). And they weren't technically on our land, but I spent a while running through the logistics of excavating the whole top level of our property nevertheless!!

Anyway, the issue with fantastica in my experience is that the signs can be very subtle - I have never in my life seen two male fantastica make physical contact, let alone wrestle. People take this as meaning they are good in groups, generally they are not (although I have a 2.2 group of Varadero that are doing okay...). Lots of people have issues loosing one or more frogs quite quickly and then don't replace them, hence why fantastica are quite uncommon in our hobby (despite being very easy to breed).

Two males together is often not a problem, unless a female is introduced. Then in a 2.1 situation one male may take to hiding away and either emerge emaciated or die. Strangely, males seem not to like too much female company either. At one time I had a productive 1.1. pair of Cainarachis, introduced another female (one of my own) and the male was never seen again. I know other people who have had similar experiences but just put it down to 'bad luck'. This is one of the reasons I say they are tricky and I tend to only sell them sexed or if I can take a good guess. I'm not in it for the money I just want the frogs to do well.

Probably not a great explanation, but might get you somewhere Stu!

Nick

P.S. With regards to pumilio - as you know, all of my Oophaga (4 vivs worth) are male-only groups and I have never seen any physical aggression. As you say, different frogs, different keepers, different setups, different experiences...


----------



## soundstounite

DrNick said:


> Got slightly distracted over the weekend by a hoard of Roman coins - well, two... (coins that is, not hoards...). And they weren't technically on our land, but I spent a while running through the logistics of excavating the whole top level of our property nevertheless!!
> 
> Anyway, the issue with fantastica in my experience is that the signs can be very subtle - I have never in my life seen two male fantastica make physical contact, let alone wrestle. People take this as meaning they are good in groups, generally they are not (although I have a 2.2 group of Varadero that are doing okay...). Lots of people have issues loosing one or more frogs quite quickly and then don't replace them, hence why fantastica are quite uncommon in our hobby (despite being very easy to breed).
> 
> Two males together is often not a problem, unless a female is introduced. Then in a 2.1 situation one male may take to hiding away and either emerge emaciated or die. Strangely, males seem not to like too much female company either. At one time I had a productive 1.1. pair of Cainarachis, introduced another female (one of my own) and the male was never seen again. I know other people who have had similar experiences but just put it down to 'bad luck'. This is one of the reasons I say they are tricky and I tend to only sell them sexed or if I can take a good guess. I'm not in it for the money I just want the frogs to do well.
> 
> Probably not a great explanation, but might get you somewhere Stu!
> 
> Nick
> 
> P.S. With regards to pumilio - as you know, all of my Oophaga (4 vivs worth) are male-only groups and I have never seen any physical aggression. As you say, different frogs, different keepers, different setups, different experiences...


Awesome,good luck with the hoard mate,that might sort that light out:whistling2: Sorry:bash:

Nick this is exactly what I was questing for ,I know damn well nowt is written in stone,we can't make up rules for a species or morph. BUT,one can gain some insights for some good first hand, hard core observations and thought from someone keeping a species. Those will hopefully arm a new keeper to that morph with what to look for ,or in this care make him ponder just what sex ratio he might keep,bllody great stuff,Nick thankyou:no1:.

We both have another friend with a group of male pums,I'd almost lay a bet that when you both finally find a lass that the group dynamic will change dramatically.

Actually Nick as a side note,I have two groups of young pums ,which I've not heard a peep from yet,but I really should have by now. They just can't all be female there are 7. So it might be time of year,or maybe housing,but I'm starting to wonder ,just what is going on,why no calling.The rfb are adult size.In the case of one particular frog ,she..please god... is much bigger than her father.,almost a carbon copy of her mum. She will complete my 3 pr if she,is a she. So finally that will put damn,it's 18months 18months of faffing around behind us,fingers crossed eh. 

Again thank you for the insights Nick


best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Anyone seen the film snakes on a plane,should be awful,but ain't so bad,really. So in said movie Sam.L Jack mutters the one memorable line..."I've had it with theseMF:censor: snakes on this MF:censorlane"

Transpose Leucs for snakes and viv for plane and you have the exact phrase I muttered when the b*stards woke me up this morning to show me what they had done!!
Look I'm seriously deaf,get one day off a week and am totally a night time person years of gigging does that,but all credit for grabbing these before falling back into netherland

So don 't tell me I'm not a beginner because how they did this is just impossible and beyond me,that leaf was a foot into the viv last night,beggers belief. I'm totally sure now that I should no longer encourage ,even My mate Ron to keep leucs,they just mess with your head mate,ff walk in the park,but a gang of luecs are a total mind numbing force,don't go there bro.:gasp:

But lay aside all the humour,this really is out there,it gets me they were all there to watch my reaction to what they did too:devil::










Good shot to show scale here(note frog basking in glory)










Oh, the huge leaf is magnolia grandiflora,and yeah I do still love them really,can't help but say B*stards again though,how on earth did they flip that leaf over the vent on to the glass,this is totally straight,not made up,I'm gobbsmacked

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

aha i've found the same from my guys Stu, not quite as big a leaf, but always picking em out the water

p.s asda selling their cookie/sweet jars off for £1 each, got myself a few, could come in use for something culture based. glass with plastic screw top


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> aha i've found the same from my guys Stu, not quite as big a leaf, but always picking em out the water
> 
> p.s asda selling their cookie/sweet jars off for £1 each, got myself a few, could come in use for something culture based. glass with plastic screw top


Nice one Joe thanks:no1:

Yeah always pulling leaves,but this just got me.

Fantasticut the male azzies in viv last night,Shaz over the moon,as bonnie blue butler,only Shaz could name her that,is now chasing both lads and stroking,she doesn't know which way to turn running from one too the other,so at last just less than 3 years in we appear to be SORTED. Rock and bloody roll:jump::jump::jump::jump::jump:

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

Congrats guys!! :2thumb:


----------



## Meefloaf

Awesome !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaUcB0dFbLM


----------



## soundstounite

Glenn thanks bro,you have a real good idea of how stoked I am for Shaz,ahh man those poor boys,it must be like being hit by a ten tonne nymphomaniac:2thumb: she hasn't let up all day,last time I looked one was being mauled,the other taking five in the top corner from the onslaught:lol2:

Will try and distract with food in a mo,but some hope huh.

Joe thankyou mate,tis a lovely long awaited thing this so many attempts to get this sorted for her,but ladies are fussy,finally I think I have it wired for her,two unrelated lines to breed from and pretty much the right damn colours for Shaz.............PHEW.........I HOPE

cheers guys

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

I guess we are now getting close to the last few posts I can make on behalf of Ivan Lozano at Teseros. Please support this if you can. It doesn't have to be a huge donation a tenner is cool a tenner from all the dart keepers could keep this project on track until Ivan get's to the large oophaga after 10years of work. Ivan is totally on his own now,Colombian frogs are much smuggled for our hobby,this project gives folks a crack at them from a legit sustainable source. Do we (the hobby)really want to be responsible for loosing frog species in the wild,that could possibly be the result of our love of these stunning frogs.

Given my complete joy at being able to keep darts, I guess I feel almost duty bound to help causes like this. But I have some sadness(huge understatement) in telling you that across Germany Holland Belgium GB USA and Canada,we have ,with just 4 days left on the campaign,just 48 folks at this time who feel like me,YUP 48. Damn it's a crying shame,I wonder how many will manage to find the dosh if this keeps going, to buy large oophaga,considerable sums of money will exchange hands,but the chance of just blindly helping a guy trying to do something amazing has fallen on deaf ears. So again I'll bung ya some links and leave you to ponder,throw in a plea for the wild frogs and try and find something else if the old grey matter will let me,to appeal,but really I haven't much.We have a cool story(one man trying to do something amazing and hanging in there when the rest have left him alone), frogs being smuggled, a way out, a way forward..... a sustainable way forward. But we across the nations can't see it,c'mon it beggers belief who would miss a tenner for a real could cause that we are passionate about we spend hours reading about,nuts ain't it. 

Hey ho here are those links again,just splash the dosh and know you did something good,a tenner for an amazing chance for us,ain't rocket science is it?

Tesoros De Colombia | Indiegogo

Ivan talking about his project,please use headphones,the sound is very poor ,but it's worth listening to the man whom is doing this

Sacas 2013 Ivan - YouTube


take care 

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Azzie eggs are here 7 to be precise,can't believe she took so long really,cool to see Shaz dancing again,boys had a proper set to the day before last. but that's sorted now...maybe:whistling2:.

Can I make a genuine request,please PM me if you have supported Teseros, if you need it will stay between us,but it would be very cool to know, just who steps up.

many thanks

Stu


----------



## Tappers

Hi mate, just seen this campaign - is it too late to donate?

Congrats to Shaz on the Azzies - tell her that little Stumpy the dragon is going from strength to strength too..


----------



## soundstounite

Tappers said:


> Hi mate, just seen this campaign - is it too late to donate?
> 
> Congrats to Shaz on the Azzies - tell her that little Stumpy the dragon is going from strength to strength too..


Ahh mate ,erm we still miss 'em:whistling2:.My apologies Paul I've been meaning to catch up,but things have been a bit mental ,we often think about have they are doing.

Actually another friend here has just asked the same question,I'm sure we can work something out,I'll be in touch kiddo . Paul thanks this one is very special, 

speak soon mate

best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Fab,finally got the bottom runner needed for completion of the red head build. Then big strong mate popped by,I have very few but they and I stick like...dude I need help,yeah bro I'm there
So big ol 2' cube is where it should be and we didn't break it,no dramas ,just like basket ball with a 2'cube made of glass, over your head. Naturally, he also pulled enough wood to keep us warm for 2 months on the way and just dropped by with it.

So this one goes to Gav thanks bro:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:. Between "us" though,the b*stard still thinks I'm his other dad,not his big bro,16 years man I've know him,tis hard educating some folks huh:bash:

Totally stoked it fits and is in place,broms or film cans is now my ponderance










Rock and bloody roll:jump::jump::jump::jump:

ha GET IN

I suppose some of the joy might just of been conveyed,huh:Na_Na_Na_Na:


Stu?


----------



## Meefloaf

looks great Stu, tho we need more pics lol if i get the chance to come over some day i'm taking a shed load


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> broms or film cans is now my ponderance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stu?


why choose.... have both

looks amazing fella


----------



## iwantacrestie

soundstounite said:


> Fab,finally got the bottom runner needed for completion of the red head build. Then big strong mate popped by,I have very few but they and I stick like...dude I need help,yeah bro I'm there
> So big ol 2' cube is where it should be and we didn't break it,no dramas ,just like basket ball with a 2'cube made of glass, over your head. Naturally, he also pulled enough wood to keep us warm for 2 months on the way and just dropped by with it.
> 
> So this one goes to Gav thanks bro:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:. Between "us" though,the b*stard still thinks I'm his other dad,not his big bro,16 years man I've know him,tis hard educating some folks huh:bash:
> 
> Totally stoked it fits and is in place,broms or film cans is now my ponderance
> 
> image
> 
> Rock and bloody roll:jump::jump::jump::jump:
> 
> ha GET IN
> 
> I suppose some of the joy might just of been conveyed,huh:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> 
> Stu?


 
Great looking setups Stu :no1:, can i have one please :lol2:

- John


----------



## Ron Magpie

iwantacrestie said:


> Great looking setups Stu :no1:, can i have one please :lol2:
> 
> - John


Easily done, mate- all you have to do is research, plan for a few years, research, plan a bit more, research, learn to build your own vivs, research, build the room for the vivs, research, build the vivs- and you are away! Oh, but you might need to research a bit... :whistling2:

I'm being facetious as usual, but in my (not very humble at all) opinion, Stu and Shaz deserve far more credit than they will ever claim for the sheer slog they have put into their worK- and they deserve the success they are achieving in a big way! :2thumb:


----------



## Meefloaf

they are beauties


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> looks great Stu, tho we need more pics lol if i get the chance to come over some day i'm taking a shed load


Stopped for 5 sorted this ,went back to springtails :whistling2:sat and ate 10 mins ago did a PM,ha but you will get proper pics once the sucker is set up. 

But Joe, it's this: I made this all of it and becuase of a proper mate,it's in,a walk in da park.I don't have to go back now do all that again. There is a massive cut off point,put one of these within the rack and you are THERE,mess one step up in moving and a world of pain follows,which you and I both know.

Sounds silly don't it,"oh I just moved a viv into a rack", but when you take in where and what I did to get here that I'm hoping for this to still be there in 10years and that's why I went there in the first place,it becomes something else.

Totally wicked this I'm so damn happy it was that last inch where is wasn't quite straight,wouldn't go, Shaz popped in went OMG, walked away:gasp:,but I could see why,grabbed the chair,gentle nudge ice in da veins

SORTED

OOOORRRAAA

Hmm you can't get this madness if anyone else did something can you? One has to cut the glass stick it all together,do the water test, sand the doors so they glide,pontificate on rocks spend ages carving, work out the method for ya self for the rocks with no one to help.The final stage ,almost is the move,icing being planting, plus 90% of them we both grew ourselves, into a rack we made again no one to help. That there is mine...OURS, every bit of it!!

Tis ok, I didn't break it phew:2thumb:

Joe it's very rare I allow my self this moment of ":censor: yeah",tomorrow I'll be "But dude, WTF" but just for a few moments...I DONE THAT,HOW THE HELL did we get here ?: LMFAO

bring it the hell on:lol2:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

haha, enjoy the moment Stu and the praise people put your's and Shaz's way, not only do you spend an insane amount of time on this lifestyle choice (because its more than a 'hobby' lol) and making sure the smallest detail is correct, but you also take out time of the little you have spare and help guys like me asking questions, you're a diamond fella, have a sit back and enjoy your creation in all it's beauty



and then grab a pic :Na_Na_Na_Na:

much love
Joe


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Easily done, mate- all you have to do is research, plan for a few years, research, plan a bit more, research, learn to build your own vivs, research, build the room for the vivs, research, build the vivs- and you are away! Oh, but you might need to research a bit... :whistling2:
> 
> I'm being facetious as usual, but in my (not very humble at all) opinion, Stu and Shaz deserve far more credit than they will ever claim for the sheer slog they have put into their worK- and they deserve the success they are achieving in a big way! :2thumb:



Ha just once I said it for us:blush:

Ron five years you have been sticking up for us(defending me 'cause I just loath the BS),offering kind words, making me think!! You have probably forgotten now but 3 guys you Paul and John asked for the detail in this thread .

Ron you are like the mate I mentioned although we haven't yet met,a proper friend

thanks bro:notworthy:

Stu

PS but it sin't work:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> why choose.... have both
> 
> looks amazing fella


Because the frogs will choose broms and those fail mate,just when you really don't need it:bash:

thanks buddy

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> haha, enjoy the moment Stu and the praise people put your's and Shaz's way, not only do you spend an insane amount of time on this lifestyle choice (because its more than a 'hobby' lol) and making sure the smallest detail is correct, but you also take out time of the little you have spare and help guys like me asking questions, you're a diamond fella, have a sit back and enjoy your creation in all it's beauty
> 
> 
> 
> and then grab a pic :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> much love
> Joe


Back at ya kiddo,but really we are hopeless Shaz asleep beside me. Me a lost cause good init

Man we gotta teach you kids patience :Na_Na_Na_Na:

thanks Joe :no1:

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Ha just once I said it for us:blush:
> 
> Ron five years you have been sticking up for us(defending me 'cause I just loath the BS),offering kind words, making me think!! You have probably forgotten now but 3 guys you Paul and John asked for the detail in this thread .
> 
> *Ron you are like the mate I mentioned although we haven't yet met,a proper friend
> *
> thanks bro:notworthy:
> 
> Stu
> 
> PS but it sin't work:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


I take that very seriously, in the spirit it is meant. And ditto. :2thumb:


----------



## Ron Magpie

Wait a minute- *five years*? Are you serious??


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Wait a minute- *five years*? Are you serious??


Sorry bro slightly over eager 4 years and some months:gasp:. Ron we have kept darts for exactly 3 years on the 25th feb,that's the day we brought our Leucs back. I was here bugging you guys way before that as you'll remember me being Stueynofrogs:lol2:,I know it was around 18months/ 2 years of research before frogs,so I'm not far away,SHOCKING HUH.

I'm pondering a 3 year round up of all the vivs etc if I can just stop a while, got a fantastic surprise when i came home, having a good week:2thumb:.Plus:whistling2: Shaz had a fight with a big spider in the bloody summersi viv :gasp:The spider lost,summersi fine. Not bad for an arachnophobe:no1::no1:

The friendship words were not in jest Ron,thanks again for all the help and support:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

Without getting OTT, mate, I think that goes both ways. Yay @ Shaz for the 'Shelob' defeat! :2thumb::no1::2thumb: (Think The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings, lol)

I for one would be really interested in seeing some up-to-date overview pictures of Da Frogroom! :2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron having this letter blindness is sometimes wonderful,naturally I read overdue 3 times before getting it right, 'erm overview,you very nearly got a reply saying,dude I'm working onit:gasp::lol2:

Ahh yup, I get Shelob,but, it might be bigger than that,I'll explain sometime. Pete Jackson crawling about as a kid under his house encountering spiders is well watched here,she did seriously well.

Goodonya Shaz:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:hmmm she also carried water till she couldn't anymore 'cause of the pain,bless I plead with her not too,but if I'm out grafting she has to measure up. Quite remarkable she is,but that slyly mentioned bit:whistling2: put the biggest smile on her face when I came home. Look for it buddy you have the info to work it out,I know:blush: but if I'm not just a little cryptic it wouldn't be me would it.


stu


----------



## soundstounite

The red head viv pretty much complete as far as planting goes:
LHS










central view









RHS









guess the waiting sort of starts right here

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

yes! loving the new wood additions Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> The red head viv pretty much complete as far as planting goes:
> LHS
> 
> image
> 
> central view
> image
> 
> RHS
> image
> 
> guess the waiting sort of starts right here
> 
> Stu


wow mate that really looks amazing, from seeing this viv in the flesh this is a huge viv guys, pics don't capture the size but this is EPIC and the finishing touches are sublime fella congratz


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> yes! loving the new wood additions Stu


Joe,ponder that cissus at the back,note the roots mike showed us,fast forward 6/8 months if it takes that is,once a fairly dense canopy forms,then you'll be fairly close to the top of the bank we pondered and where my head is at. It might work bro,if it does it will be the eye being tricked into something it isn't. I guess an optical illusion,naturally it might go pants huh:gasp:

bring it the hell on 

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

soundstounite said:


> Joe,ponder that cissus at the back,note the roots mike showed us,fast forward 6/8 months if it takes that is,once a fairly dense canopy forms,then you'll be fairly close to the top of the bank we pondered and where my head is at. It might work bro,if it does it will be the eye being tricked into something it isn't. I guess an optical illusion,naturally it might go pants huh:gasp:
> 
> bring it the hell on
> 
> Stu


heres hoping it works fella,:2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> wow mate that really looks amazing, from seeing this viv in the flesh this is a huge viv guys, pics don't capture the size but this is EPIC and the finishing touches are sublime fella congratz


Joe my humble apologies,thanks dude

Dane cheers buddy,its a very basic start,and we'll see if I planned it right and what happens when the plants really start to do their thing. Missing from the pics is the epiweb,moss mix , that will be around a year or more before it really starts to show. The moss on the foreground branch is the black jungle stuff I think I showed you. If i've got the aspect right regarding light that might work up too.Ferns bottom left are epiweb grown on here for a year,some might fail through lack of light,that will be interesting to watch.

Beyond all this the red head dry season and what consequences that will hold are something I maybe haven't dwelt on enough we'll see mate,I smile quietly that no one reallyclocked the vid I linked.Had to spell it out recently,but barely one comment here or in the states along the lines of a dart and a cactus WTF,that amuses me Dane.

I'm not really after a quick fix here,this one will take a helluva time before it gets where I'm hoping it will go

thanks for the words dude!!:notworthy:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

soundstounite said:


> Joe my humble apologies,thanks dude


lol why are you apologising fella ?


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> lol why are you apologising fella ?


ha Because this "yes! loving the new wood additions Stu" deserves a thank you,before the ramble and I forgot,:bash:.

I guess I'm a bit old skool bro, manners maketh the man and all that. So it wasn't hard to admit a mistake and apologise,I know alot of folks will read this and think I'm being stupid,but it is how it is mate.Put it this way If Ive tried to help you said something cool about something you have done,you'll always say thanks mate,ALWAYS Joe!! So you deserve the same back:2thumb:. 
seeya b uddy

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

ahhhhh, i get ya Stu, cheers fella.

i'm sat here, looking at my cork bark stump :lol2: long day


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> ahhhhh, i get ya Stu, cheers fella.
> 
> i'm sat here, looking at my cork bark stump :lol2: long day


Cork bark stump,have a word with Calz,he's just got something for that:blush:

Anyway always nice seeing this and how the hell do they time the egg laying almost to the day that the last lot come ootw,as I took this in a mad rush I had little faces watching me that weren't there yesterday,the totally special reality of of darts










Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

never get tired of of seeing pics of frogs carrying their kids around


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> never get tired of of seeing pics of frogs carrying their kids around


Remarkable isn't it Joe,we've seen it alot now,but it always leads to someone running round the house shouting for the other one,so yup enthusiasm is shared here,ya know I think the luecs and both tincs carrying are still the highlights so far tincs cause both mum and dad had tads on backs,leucs 'cause it took the boys so long to get it figured out. Pulled to monster leuc tads last night actually from the ditch in viv,I was worried they would start munching each other,but the little tank raised guy is nearing adult size now,damn he's done well.

best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

But before kid carrying we get courtship,bloody lass don't let up much:bash: 
Eggs now fertile after several clutches,no worries there all as it should be

Love is in the air:










Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

Just left stu and shaz.

First would like to say a massive thank you to them for having us round for a chat and showing me the setup.

Was wonderful to see so many awesome vivs and frogs. Fell in love with a few.


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> Just left stu and shaz.
> 
> First would like to say a massive thank you to them for having us round for a chat and showing me the setup.
> 
> Was wonderful to see so many awesome vivs and frogs. Fell in love with a few.


Bro it was lovely to spend time with you guys when I'm not stressed out by froggies at a show,your always welcome here mate,thanks are mine,just get home safe and I'll be happy:2thumb:.

Did that mystie preform on cue or WHAT !!!!!:notworthy::gasp::lol2:

Thanks buddy:notworthy:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

"I've been umming and ahhing mysties" que them all crawling to front pf viv and then after an orgy young male starts peacocking


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> "I've been umming and ahhing mysties" que them all crawling to front pf viv and then after an orgy young male starts peacocking


Takes after his dad:whistling2: 

But you can see now just why we love then sooooo much,great in groups, stunning to look at, da spiderman walk, wonderful character and they want!! to be mates with people,which is just downright strange really. I really try not to have favourites Joe.........NO I really try.

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

just got back, took a detour to J's house to drop off some supplies, can't wait to see it when he has his new vis all up and running. and had a play with his lush carpet

more in depth analysis of my visit to stu's

1) Depth, seriously that extra 15cm depth (so 60cmdeep) makes the world of difference, the vis dont look that big on here but my god they are huge in real life.

2) The rockwork, it's just nuts. They look stunning in person and if i didnt know two huge chunks of it were Stu's creation i'd have thought they were the real deal. also very odd to touch

3) the frogs, i'm glad i dont have a viv setup atm lol they were gorgeous to see. Stu's Aratus were out and about and the kids as bold as brass, the colours on some of them were just stunning. The highlight for me was seeing the Mysties, not only how much fun they are but got to see a call off and some tad carrying. I can't believe the size of the female azzie and matecho, could attach a cart to them and go to market lol

:mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble:


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> just got back, took a detour to J's house to drop off some supplies, can't wait to see it when he has his new vis all up and running. and had a play with his lush carpet
> 
> more in depth analysis of my visit to stu's
> 
> 1) Depth, seriously that extra 15cm depth (so 60cmdeep) makes the world of difference, the vis dont look that big on here but my god they are huge in real life.
> 
> 2) The rockwork, it's just nuts. They look stunning in person and if i didnt know two huge chunks of it were Stu's creation i'd have thought they were the real deal. also very odd to touch
> 
> 3) the frogs, i'm glad i dont have a viv setup atm lol they were gorgeous to see. Stu's Aratus were out and about and the kids as bold as brass, the colours on some of them were just stunning. The highlight for me was seeing the Mysties, not only how much fun they are but got to see a call off and some tad carrying. I can't believe the size of the female azzie and matecho, could attach a cart to them and go to market lol
> 
> :mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble:


Dude you forgot the puppies:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Joe,thanks for dropping by and sorry the reply is late,I'm busy,wrote all this stuff out and forgot to post:bash:.

Mate thanks for both the kind words and the time you gave to come talk froggies .

As with Dane, the depth, like the springtails needs seeing,try as I might pics and words don't convey it all.

I pulled about 20 mystie eggs from the kids orgy mate, this morning. When I got back here yesterday Shaz informed me 4 were wedged in the film can so it looks like the guy had reason to strut a bit:flrt:

Glad you got back safe and sound mate,
best always kiddo

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

aha, productive little guy eh !

the pleasure was all mine mate (we'll keep going back and forth with this one eh aha)

got me two viv's on order now, and next payday shall be getting on with this rock making malarky of yours, will also be keeping an eye out for sweet jars after seeing the thousands that shaz has got on the go, that tub was just black with flies mate


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> aha, productive little guy eh !
> 
> the pleasure was all mine mate (we'll keep going back and forth with this one eh aha)
> 
> got me two viv's on order now, and next payday shall be getting on with this rock making malarky of yours, will also be keeping an eye out for sweet jars after seeing the thousands that shaz has got on the go, that tub was just black with flies mate


 I guess I tend to talk,folks will note the credit I give to her,it's not 'cause we've been together since kids Joe and she is my hero.She bloody earns the words. This would not be here but for Shaz,period. A sick lady that has been told to drink morphine, says to hell with that, just gets on with it no one would really know 'cause she doesn't show what she goes through. Proper inspiring buddy:notworthy: She thinks genuinely she is crap at culturing doesn't have a clue on frogs,but it 's not quite the case is it:lol2: give her 100 to look at she'll say ,this is wrong,that is wrong,it's total intuition,I guess some stockmen are just born to see ,while the rest of us have to really look hard and think. She can't give you latin names or words she won't say much when folks are here,but yeah a little culture spells it out really.

New vivs ooorraaa

bring it on mate

Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

A true inspiration mate and to add to that list makes a cracking brew and top dollar cakes mate I'm slavering just thinking about them 
I wish I had a shaz  must be amazing sharing the same hobby buddy I'm sure I'm not the only guy here who's worse half moans about ma froggies and u can see both your passion mate that is what makes your room that little extra special the story the love the passion both a true inspiration 
Enough of that soppy stuff lets have some pics dude how them big fellas doing? Them tincs must eat you out of house and home


Thanks 
Dane


----------



## Meefloaf

she's lovely mate, you're both very humble people and i think thats why alot of us admire you guys, there's no bells whistle or BS attached, just two people dedicated to giving these guys a wonderful life.

as for you talking, i hadnt noticed lol, Paula has learnt us frog people love to chat, today i left the room as i called Dale about the vivs, she wondered why it had only been half an hour lol. and when we popped in J's to drop off his goods from dartfrog, we got invited in, then ended up in his dart room and that led to massive convo about stuff lol, should've been back here about 9-9:30, got back after half eleven lol. Two hours round yours flew by and i wish i could've spent a day chatting froggles


----------



## Meefloaf

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> Enough of that soppy stuff lets have some pics dude how them big fellas doing? Them tincs must eat you out of house and home
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Dane


tie a few leashes on em and he'll have a free eco mode of transport lol


----------



## soundstounite

Cheers both,:notworthy: I'm gonna go off on one for a while

On the 25th feb Shaz and I will have kept darts for exactly 3 years,so I thought a sort of round up of just where we are at now would be fun. This wi8ll gradually be updated with pretty much all that is going on right now,but it will take time to complete as and when I can grab it.

Lets start with a very important factor in all this,the base building block,our cultured food,there is more to come,I haven't taken pics of the whole shebang by any means. All the methods are here,but an idea of scale on our size collection and time spent really starts here

Woodlice mostly 3L or 4.5L cultures types kept giant orange,dwarf white dwarf striped and the well know fast bugger:whistling2: this has expanded now to monopolize my son's bedroom,he has moved out by the way. this room also contains springtails,most cultures are on mite paper.

Iso:










Springs:









Both plus some grow out tubs seeded and settling in:



















Right on to the room proper:

The 12 viv rack as it is now,above this rack are 26 3L iso cultures to the left,the right side cupboard contains ff,unfortunately not showing in this pic










From the bottom the vivs

red frog beach kids,hopefully on their way to being proved out










Summersi,our pair still laying eggs but no embryos,so damn frustrating,not nealry enough of these about here,I'm desperate to be successful with them,one day maybe,but these are always going to stay here,both quite bold now.









A new viv again hopefully for summersi,I'm hoping to keep two prs in here,part of the design is the outcrop of rock to block line of sight across the viv,main planting on background marcgravia umbulata,it might not give enough cover I'll wait and see. Oh note the ferns almost all epiweb moss mix,all grown here,rocks artificial the method that's here in this thread










Macheto,a pair maybe one day they might breed,no signs yet










Mt Atachibakka a breeding pr










A grow out,I'll come back to this and one of the other vivs later on,a long ol story to tell here. note again epiweb ferns on the LHS branch,I love that little bit










Cemetery Basti viv










That's it for tonight folks more to come including some froggies I suppose:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Azzie eggs closing on term and looking good a new pan special kid out in viv plus a couple of rfb kids all last week never a dull day here,even if it's raining:2thumb:

bring it on

Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Simply Amazing Stu!

john




soundstounite said:


> Cheers both,:notworthy: I'm gonna go off on one for a while
> 
> On the 25th feb Shaz and I will have kept darts for exactly 3 years,so I thought a sort of round up of just where we are at now would be fun. This wi8ll gradually be updated with pretty much all that is going on right now,but it will take time to complete as and when I can grab it.
> 
> Lets start with a very important factor in all this,the base building block,our cultured food,there is more to come,I haven't taken pics of the whole shebang by any means. All the methods are here,but an idea of scale on our size collection and time spent really starts here
> 
> Woodlice mostly 3L or 4.5L cultures types kept giant orange,dwarf white dwarf striped and the well know fast bugger:whistling2: this has expanded now to monopolize my son's bedroom,he has moved out by the way. this room also contains springtails,most cultures are on mite paper.
> 
> Iso:
> 
> image
> 
> Springs:
> image
> 
> Both plus some grow out tubs seeded and settling in:
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> Right on to the room proper:
> 
> The 12 viv rack as it is now,above this rack are 26 3L iso cultures to the left,the right side cupboard contains ff,unfortunately not showing in this pic
> 
> image
> 
> From the bottom the vivs
> 
> red frog beach kids,hopefully on their way to being proved out
> 
> image
> 
> Summersi,our pair still laying eggs but no embryos,so damn frustrating,not nealry enough of these about here,I'm desperate to be successful with them,one day maybe,but these are always going to stay here,both quite bold now.
> image
> 
> A new viv again hopefully for summersi,I'm hoping to keep two prs in here,part of the design is the outcrop of rock to block line of sight across the viv,main planting on background marcgravia umbulata,it might not give enough cover I'll wait and see. Oh note the ferns almost all epiweb moss mix,all grown here,rocks artificial the method that's here in this thread
> 
> image
> 
> Macheto,a pair maybe one day they might breed,no signs yet
> 
> image
> 
> Mt Atachibakka a breeding pr
> 
> image
> 
> A grow out,I'll come back to this and one of the other vivs later on,a long ol story to tell here. note again epiweb ferns on the LHS branch,I love that little bit
> 
> image
> 
> Cemetery Basti viv
> 
> image
> 
> That's it for tonight folks more to come including some froggies I suppose:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> Azzie eggs closing on term and looking good a new pan special kid out in viv plus a couple of rfb kids all last week never a dull day here,even if it's raining:2thumb:
> 
> bring it on
> 
> Stu


----------



## earthtiger

soundstounite said:


> this room also contains springtails,most cultures are on mite paper.


mite paper? What is this?


----------



## soundstounite

earthtiger said:


> mite paper? What is this?


John first up thanks mate,I cocked up a pic of the rack,but just wanted to get the thanks up there afore forgetting:2thumb:

Dude loving the bus:no1:

Martin ,hiya. Its a paper we get imported from america it is impregnated with chemicals that kill mites. So we use this under fruit fly and springtail cultures to help stop mites getting in to them. Actually I'm sure something has been lost in translation,because you know so much I would think you would have seen this over there.
Here's a link which might help,scroll down:

Fertilisers & Feeds Price List

Martin,you might also look in to my great friend Glenn's(frogfreak) method he uses diatomous earth,maybe he or Dane would be a star and give you a link,I know there is one here somewhere,or maybe search for Glewnns bugroom thread,it might be here,but it is on dartden. If you are in any way worried about chemicals,this might be better for you. It doesn't really work for me as I have cultures on shelves on top of racks under racks,and not enough space to buld something deadicated,or I would probably steal what Glenn does,I do th at a lot to him:blush:

Oh Martin finally,it's been great reading what you have been up to here with your stock,thanks for sharing

I hope this helps
best

Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> Martin,you might also look in to my great friend Glenn's(frogfreak) method he uses diatomous earth,maybe he or Dane would be a star and give you a link,I know there is one here somewhere,or maybe search for Glewnns bugroom thread,it might be here,but it is on dartden. If you are in any way worried about chemicals,this might be better for you. It doesn't really work for me as I have cultures on shelves on top of racks under racks,and not enough space to buld something deadicated,or I would probably steal what Glenn does,I do th at a lot to him:blush:


 hear ya go this is what I have used, I got the tip from Glenn and have seen massive improvements, I put it the bottom of cat litter trays and a sit my cultures on a roasting rack thing to lift them out of the dust 


http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0083HO2MY/ref=oh_details_o07_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Stu great pics mate saw last night but was too tired to type :blush: I eagerly wait the rest :mf_dribble:


----------



## soundstounite

This is actually what the 12 viv rack looks like,yeah I hope,bloody computers the lengths I go to for you guys,give me some bloody frogs and off we go though,so it ain't so bad:lol2::










Stu


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> hear ya go this is what I have used, I got the tip from Glenn and have seen massive improvements, I put it the bottom of cat litter trays and a sit my cultures on a roasting rack thing to lift them out of the dust
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0083HO2MY/ref=oh_details_o07_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> 
> Stu great pics mate saw last night but was too tired to type :blush: I eagerly wait the rest :mf_dribble:


Thank you mate,bloody star you are:no1: Thanks on the pics too, got a few more to load bro but I doubt you'll see much more tonight:gasp:

take care bro

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

pics pics pics pics pics

:mf_dribble::whistling2::lol2:

payday tomorrow, going to be fun lol i'm buying a shed aswell so i have somewhere to go and build my stuff compromised


----------



## soundstounite

Getting there Joe,dude you know how slow I am:whistling2:

Red frog beach,sorry not the best pictures same with the next one,camera angle I think at fault,or basically,moi:lol2: Oh most of the other vivs pictured have been 50sq base 40 high,these are 60high(a couple of 40cubes have featured),bottom middle of the rack,these will hopefully be moved at some stage.










Another viv,I'll come back to:










Got one more on this rack and finished,here's the first of the rack across the room,its housing a 2:1 trio of Azuereus,60sq base 40high,weird size but needs must the viv alongside this houses panama special auratus,all other vivs on this rack 60cmcubes or there abouts.










All I've had chance to get for the mo.

Take care

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

get that red frog beach pic down ! if Paula sees this :lol2:

as for the squat azzie viv, the rocks in there are insane, look like two massive slabs of rock in person, would not believe its a lump of polystyrene lol

also, i forgot to ask you whilst i was there, what is the j cloth about ?


----------



## plasma234

sorry stu, but that azzie viv is amazing, i think this will be my main inspiration for my pum viv, just with more broms :notworthy: 


i guess joe it is to clean the glass but each viv has its own cloth to avoid spreading disease? excuse me if i am wrong.


EDIT: 

do you have a full resolution shot of the azzie viv?


----------



## soundstounite

plasma234 said:


> sorry stu, but that azzie viv is amazing, i think this will be my main inspiration for my pum viv, just with more broms :notworthy:
> 
> 
> i guess joe it is to clean the glass but each viv has its own cloth to avoid spreading disease? excuse me if i am wrong.
> 
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> do you have a full resolution shot of the azzie viv?


Calz you are a clever bugger,and it's not just the fact you nailed the cloths either,he's spot on Joe,the cloths are for cleaning doors,one per viv,in an effort to stop cross contamination,I don't honestly think I'm careful enough on many levels but they aren't there for show,it's another of those silly little things we do to try and be careful.

Tell ya what guys,you hear me being cautious telling folks oh this might be more tricky but it takes out a possible risk,try this.Today talking about not using plants(cuttings) from an inhabited viv. We do do all this stuff,Joe you and Dane saw the plants,I am picky,it is practice not just preaching,what ya see is what ya get here:blush:

Joe if I show you more of the pum viv,I'll be more of a bugger than what I said elsewhere,huh:lol2: It's simple really mate those two vivs are up a bit,I'm using longer exposure times to try and get more depth of field in focus with these pics as I'm now very aware that the real vivs are not coming out.But the flip side is the lights are playing hell with exposure,especially on the top story vivs as I have to work off a tripod and can't get high enough to grab the angle I want.

Calz,could you explain full resolution for me please,I don't mess with my pictures in any way,as above what ya see....no cropping no photoshop, just made to a size that fits here in the hosting site.
It's a viv full of ferns buddy,a dart viv:gasp:,as I was building it out,for auratus incidentally:blush: I can remember thinking this is slightly mad,but I concur it just works,tis more luck than any great credit to us though.I'll drop you a PM shortly mate bare with me though,I might fold before getting it done tonight. But i think I might be able to get you more detail. 

Thanks kiddo for the words,they are what they are mate working vivs not too many bells and whistles,just alot of head scratching on the design, 

Actually this one is a great indicator of what one can do,with out spending much, but by grafting a bit. Viv maybe £15,rubbish glass so silicone plastic and mesh,wood free plants grown here free cork maybe a tenner cocohut 50pmade here rocks say £10/20 for the lot. subs maybe a couple of quid,say £60 all in,I think it worth outlining these costs: I want more folks keeping darts and to realize money isn't all and shouldn't stop anyone,if they graft for it.

take care both

Stu


----------



## plasma234

As I am typing on a tablet, I wont write a full response, as it takes so long. 

What I meant by full resolution was full sized image, I take it your camera is relatively good, it won't be taking pictures in such a small size on its own. The hosting site might be reducing the size of the picture so it is a smaller file size. I was hoping for an image probably about 10x the size of the one you postes. It is a very cheeky request, but I was hoping to see some of the fine detail :blush:

If its cool with you I can pm you my email address, and then you can email the original image file over, so you don't have to host it. 

Peace


----------



## Ron Magpie

I use 'value' paper towelling for the glass cleaning- one use and chucked down the loo! :lol2:

I can see that dedicated cloths might be a bit more ecofriendly, though.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I use 'value' paper towelling for the glass cleaning- one use and chucked down the loo! :lol2:
> 
> I can see that dedicated cloths might be a bit more ecofriendly, though.


Shhheees and I thought I was picky,I'm properly laughing Ron if that comes over wrong. Mate one way is as good as another in my eyes: victory:,it's just avoiding going from viv to viv which is important.

Plus Calz is sorted so i now am able to post really big pics,but won't 'cause the ancient computer will def peg it:bash:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Don't keep darts one starts off with a cunning plan and then all this happens,Hmm actually we did plan this,but 'erm things happen quicker than one expects at least on some levels:mf_dribble:

3 year round up continues:

woodlice yeah more:whistling2:










Vivs superblue auratus 1;2 breeding trio the last of the 50cmsq base 40high










Panama special auratus a breeding group of 5 60sq base 40high










next two are 60cubes
Leucs breeding group of 3:2










Mysties 1:3 breeding group











Apart from the recently built red head viv,that's the lot viv wise I think,so lets start to mull through some frogs,all new pics so current to now.

Red frog beach,we have a 2: group breeding here is despite his size the subordinate male "Bruiser" we call him



















"Spot" dominant male,little pum males are buggers it seems for being top dog,I do wonder whether the chip on their collective shoulders about being small makes them better breeders,He's about all the time,but a bugger to photograph,he's been kicking up a storm today eggs will follow from "pepper"










One of spot and big reds's kids,ootw last week,I'm pretty sure there is a pic of big red carrying here a few pages back,so won't duplicate










Baby pan special,tank reared










Bigger baby pan special also reared in tank,completely bold no shyness










Summersi female ya got to love her,one day she might lay good eggs,but for know such a cracking little mate











That's enough for the mo.

take care

Stu


----------



## Snake Island Reptiles

i want a snake room:whistling2:


----------



## plasma234

Lovely vivs!!

My phone was showing the leuc vivs and mystie vivs as the same photo. I got confused.


----------



## Snake Island Reptiles

that little baby blue 1 is soooo cute :mf_dribble:


----------



## soundstounite

plasma234 said:


> Lovely vivs!!
> 
> My phone was showing the leuc vivs and mystie vivs as the same photo. I got confused.


Callum you are a pain let the old guy mess up dude:Na_Na_Na_Na: 

Your eyes are good buddy,but there is an edit function for those of us trying to upload THE RIGHT PICTURE,and whom freely admit they are not furpect:whistling2:

What got me was your post changed as I typed:lol2:

Funny as, the cock up was met with much swearing here:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

glad to have that mystie viv pic up Stu. i've purchased 5kg of some thin cork tubes and some more wood lol getting ready to get on, buying a shed at some point too so i can go and do some rock building out there


----------



## soundstounite

Snake Island Reptiles said:


> i want a snake room:whistling2:


You can have one:2thumb:,i'm the lowest of the low,it's just, I come built in with a stubborn streak that means out of reach stuff is obtainable.Folks tell you you can't do this and they are right,what is here is impossible....but you are looking at it. On a care workers wages with a sick lass

Tis the big picture behind the thread mate, anyone can do this.

But take it from me you have to be proper stubborn no one gives this to you,you earn it,not money......pure hard graft

Go for it mate

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> glad to have that mystie viv pic up Stu. i've purchased 5kg of some thin cork tubes and some more wood lol getting ready to get on, buying a shed at some point too so i can go and do some rock building out there


Mate at times we go backwards,but that stepping back gives us an easier life later,bring on the shed of rocks:no1: 

Next time you drop by,we'll do the shed of rock,I totally promise I'll deafen you,ok not completely ,but you'll remember for a few hours,even though I play like a ponce now:blush:

Good luck buddy keep bashing at it

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

i'll bring the kazoo


----------



## plasma234

Assuming you play drums stu

This is how I imagine you and joe.


----------



## soundstounite

plasma234 said:


> Assuming you play drums stu
> 
> This is how I imagine you and joe.
> 
> image


Yes buddy that's my bag,but created a studio for a cracking band that went kaput,so ended up doing more.never done the other stuff live though,but learning how all those songs in my head can be got in to a place where folks can hear them is an eye opener calz. If they be good or bad I dunno mate,but a bit like this,froggy stuff, the journey is cool.

Calz ,the dude plays like a girl,so harsh mate:lol2:.

Joe I recorded one of my best mates asleep snoring,for a song we made up about him on the fly,we can sort the kazoo:2thumb: Each time I listen to that I wonder how he was perfectly in time and yet sleeping. He grafts like a sod can't blame him for the sleeping,but just occassionally I am very bad

Rock'n'roll:lol2:











WOT?

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

aha ! that's brilliant, poor sod :lol2:

and im more like this chap (height wise anyway lol)


----------



## ronnyjodes

soundstounite said:


> Next time you drop by,we'll do the shed of rock,I totally promise I'll deafen you,ok not completely ,but you'll remember for a few hours,even though I play like a ponce now:blush:


I'm thinking BAKS jam- I've been playing guitar for 15 years now and I don't half miss the tinitus after a bloody good gig .

I've been looking for an excuse to deafen you lot with what I've been mucking around doing with my studio gear. Have at it boys : victory:

https://soundcloud.com/ronnyjodes


----------



## Meefloaf

many years ago when i was doing media i also did a bit of radio and music production, i wish i could get hold of the weird stuff i used to make for that. one of the "stduios" was actually in a media room and i didnt notice but the next class had come in and sat down whilst i was giving it the ol wakeman/keith emerson in the corner going nuts on the keyboard and sliders lol


----------



## soundstounite

ronnyjodes said:


> I'm thinking BAKS jam- I've been playing guitar for 15 years now and I don't half miss the tinitus after a bloody good gig .
> 
> I've been looking for an excuse to deafen you lot with what I've been mucking around doing with my studio gear. Have at it boys : victory:
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/ronnyjodes


Jon could you please wack something on to a CD for me,i'd love to hear it properly on the big mackies,pm me an addy and I'll return some stuff done here. I'm pretty much old skool with recording,don't tend to use the computers much,they are there by default,in keyboards etc. So I sort of bumble along like a gig with recording,play the stuff and that's it,on a track by track level anyway. I guess I played live for 30years,it's quite an eye opener having access to the other stuff

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

this, this is the moment we'll look back on when we've toured Japan 17times


----------



## ronnyjodes

soundstounite said:


> Jon could you please wack something on to a CD for me,i'd love to hear it properly on the big mackies,pm me an addy and I'll return some stuff done here. I'm pretty much old skool with recording,don't tend to use the computers much,they are there by default,in keyboards etc. So I sort of bumble along like a gig with recording,play the stuff and that's it,on a track by track level anyway. I guess I played live for 30years,it's quite an eye opener having access to the other stuff
> 
> Stu


Yeah mate, I'd be happy to. Send me your address I'll post you a CD although I'll be honest when I say it's very primitively done! I'm still learning to record with computers myself but I think I can hide a lot of my inadequacies with a good guitar tone and a decent mix! I think I approach recording like gigging too, guitars high in the mix, plenty of kick and snare and have the bass ambling about in the middle somewhere. I've still not quite got the hang of a good vocal sound though, hence why most of what I record is instrumental. I've got a fair mix of stuff too from the downright nasty grindcore on my soundcloud to blues and country.


----------



## Ron Magpie

Ah, the old 'bedroom band' days... Nostalgia...


----------



## soundstounite

Joe,nah S. America:whistling2:

Ron ain't it just:lol2:,although bedrooms and drummers ain't the best mix:mf_dribble:

Jon thanks buddy will do. Tis all about getting the right mic for the particular voice,methinks,then recording all the vox dry as hell,try nailing all wall reflections too. But give the ponce singing some reverb to help bolster their oh so fragile egos,ahh bless,lmao.

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

Good point. Pick up frogs on our journey


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> Good point. Pick up frogs on our journey


Nah see frogs,buy bloody great chunks of rainforest with our zillions where frogs are,oh and try not to loose the bloody guitarist in a cocoa field....AGAIN:gasp:

Close though bro:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

thing is, you'd probably have to use my share of the money and make a conservational region in my honour, as i'll be killed during a riot at the football


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Nah see frogs,buy bloody great chunks of rainforest with our zillions where frogs are,oh and try not to loose the bloody guitarist in a cocoa field....AGAIN:gasp:
> 
> Close though bro:2thumb:
> 
> Stu


But man, like, these fields are amazing. man! I'm like, taken back to my roots. I mean that's what it's all about, man, yeah?


----------



## soundstounite

I'm not sure quite who is leading who astray here Ron:no1::lol2: 
best
Stu


----------



## fatlad69

soundstounite said:


> I'm not sure quite who is leading who astray here Ron:no1::lol2:
> best
> Stu


I don't know what you three have been smoking but it can't be legal!:lol2:


----------



## Ron Magpie

fatlad69 said:


> I don't know what you three have been smoking but it can't be legal!:lol2:


No, man, we're not smoking, we're just taking in the Universe, man!


----------



## Meefloaf

Super Furry Animals - Smokin' - YouTube


----------



## soundstounite

fatlad69 said:


> I don't know what you three have been smoking but it can't be legal!:lol2:


:blush: The real worry is we are all so nuts we don't need anything to come up with this malarky mate:whistling2:

Frogs and Fun all as it should be : victory:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf




----------



## soundstounite

:lol2: Joe 


Ok back to dart froggy stuff I spotted this over on Db,possibly most of you are aware of the situation in panama with the so called FR(farm raised) frogs and the pictures of a farm with all the cups the wrong way up:whistling2:.

As far as I am aware the only legit frogs coming out of Costa Rica until last year have been coming through CRARC,the Costa rican amphibian research centre and I'm not completely sure whether Brian Kubiki has actually released and pums get to the hobby,see here for more info: 

Costa Rica | Understory Enterprises

Last year some frogs came into the US via another possibly(at that time but likely now) legit source. The supplier/ importer has changed it seems, as there were some problems,Nick posted some,let's face it,awful pics here a while back.

Hopefully any transport issues will be sorted out now so that situation wont't ever happen again. I think these are the first pictures I have seen of what looks like a bonefide operation breeding pumillio,apart from CRARC. I don't think this is a conservation effort(I'll stand corrected there if it is),but it does seem to be well run and regulated by the CR government,so at the very least those wild populations should n't be at possible risk from over collection like we seem to be seeing in panama. Ie it's at least sustainable

Anyway I found looking through all this fascinating,you tree frog guys will be interested too!!

Nick if you see this thoughts please , thanks in advance 

Saurian Enterprises, Inc :: Captive Bred Costa Rican Frogs

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Due to huge kindness from Richie at rainforest vivs and my mate Ben we have just taken these little guys on to add to our managerie. they are hopefully two pr of Ranitomeya summersi. We already keep this species as you all know,but our lass seems to lay eggs with no embryos in,so maybe one day we might get a chance to see what we've waited for so long now..

I'm beyond thrilled and really can't thank the two guys that helped us enough

Take a look at these beauts





































Take care

Stu

ps I should add these were bred by Mark Pepper of Understory enterprises,so completely sustainable and our hobby's future


----------



## Meefloaf

so pretty Stu, whats the difference between Summersi and Imitator Banded ?

infact whats the deal with the imi's all together


----------



## DrNick

There are two main branches of the Ranitomeya tree - the reticulata branch that contains (as you might think) retics, fantastica, summersi and a couple of others, and the imitator branch that are unrelated and contain the imitators (again, as you would expect!!), vanzolinii etc. There is literature on this if you are interested.

The imitators are often similar in appearance to species on the reticulata branch where they co-exist (e.g. banded imi and summersi, imitator Jeberos/Varadero and fantastica from around the town of Varadero). Although in reality this may also apply to other species in the imitator group (e.g. R. amazonica arena blanca and R. reticulata). It is a form of mimicry, although no one fully understands the mechanism or how it evolved.

Nick


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

DrNick said:


> There are two main branches of the Ranitomeya tree - the reticulata branch that contains (as you might think) retics, fantastica, summersi and a couple of others, and the imitator branch that are unrelated and contain the imitators (again, as you would expect!!), vanzolinii etc. *There is literature on this if you are interested.*
> 
> The imitators are often similar in appearance to species on the reticulata branch where they co-exist (e.g. banded imi and summersi, imitator Jeberos/Varadero and fantastica from around the town of Varadero). Although in reality this may also apply to other species in the imitator group (e.g. R. amazonica arena blanca and R. reticulata). It is a form of mimicry, although no one fully understands the mechanism or how it evolved.
> 
> Nick


Nick i would be really interested in any literature if you point me in the right direction mate

cheers 

dane


----------



## DrNick

Here's a good place to start - see page 25:

http://www.dendrobates.org/articles/Brown&Twomey_etal_2011_Revision of Ranitomeya.pdf


----------



## Meefloaf

:flrt::flrt::flrt:


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> :flrt::flrt::flrt:
> 
> image


Areana blanca Joe?

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

ranitomeya reticulata it says


----------



## soundstounite

Attachibakka:



















Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

DrNick said:


> Here's a good place to start - see page 25:
> 
> http://www.dendrobates.org/articles/Brown&Twomey_etal_2011_Revision of Ranitomeya.pdf


 cheers nick very appreciated


----------



## Meefloaf

btw, i do believe it is a Areana Blanca Stu, having gone through googles


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> ranitomeya reticulata it says


For a non rani guy,not so bad I guess:bash:

Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

guys don't get me started on the reticulate by far one of my fav frogs ever I have loads of poor pics so wont load them as my camera skills are shocking


----------



## soundstounite

Dane Joe some reading about the two species,dig through the links provided in the thread too. 

Summersi and banded imitators - Dendroboard

Joe you can see how difficult it is to identify some species ,from reading the threads you'll also see just why I wanted genuine UE frogs plus how parties in europe will pass one off for another.

best

Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

I have gone through this one before mate I like the fact one person will say arrr to tell them apart look at xyz and someone will say no both Imi and summ have this look at pic.... I believe it's all about the call that's the only true way but only for males lol 


Thanks 
Dane


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> I have gone through this one before mate I like the fact one person will say arrr to tell them apart look at xyz and someone will say no both Imi and summ have this look at pic.... I believe it's all about the call that's the only true way but only for males lol
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Dane


I'd call movement and shape/size too buddy,but with the best proved wrong for me the only sure fire way is trusted seller with an immature frog. oh and bro I really mean the best,not obtainable here.

Although:blush: I do have a mate,that has one hell of an eye for this and whom clocked those imis sold as summersi, right from the off.so that statement is somewhat void. Yup he sold me my summersi and also keeps banded imis. I think that's the ticket Dane,being around both species for a goodly while,the eye gets honed. naturally we haven't discussed the belly markings have we,more to learn there too me thinks.

Trusted seller is good though,for anyone that hasn't kept both . We could always throw in that fantastica ,did you read me quizzing them on that too mate:mf_dribble:?

I'd draw a parallel with the green cem bastis,natural or maybe the guys living on bastimentos just wanted some green frogs so popped across the way to Colon and grabbed a few

Until some hard core genes get tested mate,we are stabbing in the dark, the more I learn the less I know

good init:lol2:

Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

Yes I fully agree I'm sure there are other differences but unless working / keeping both its difficult 
This is a prime example to highlight buying from knowledgable breeders and having that relationship with the breeder to gain trust is invaluable and even though I don't think many frog keepers here use couriers I'm sure many do but this is a big way to be mis sold something 


Thanks 
Dane


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> Yes I fully agree I'm sure there are other differences but unless working / keeping both its difficult
> This is a prime example to highlight buying from knowledgable breeders and having that relationship with the breeder to gain trust is invaluable and even though I don't think many frog keepers here use couriers I'm sure many do but this is a big way to be mis sold something
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Dane


I think some of the shops send frogs Dane,but yeah you are right,I guess,trouble is in this particular case one wouldn't know untill at least breeding/calling started.

I've sent one group of frogs by specialist courier Dane,they got to there new home 3hours later. I really don't think we have a reliable transport network here to do other than use specialists. By the same token I feel we have much to learn on transport,even if it's just for ourselves,when buying a frog. I had a 2 hour journey to get frogs turn into a complete mare of 7 hours,ok I had car heating and all was well. But if UE can send stock around the globe and guarantee live arrival,then I feel we could ...I could do better !!

best

Stu


----------



## zekee

Stu, quick question fella, what is that stuff you are using for the backgrounds in the vivs, and where do you get it?


----------



## Meefloaf

"*Pressed Dark Cork Panel* 
100x50x2cm / 39.3x19.7x0.8 inches. 
A thin, flatter product below made from pressed cork cut to give a smooth surface. Dark brown. Works well for certain bromeliads and climbers."

it's £14.99 from dartfrog, on my last build that covered the entire back and 9/10 of one side. so i'm guessing stu's 2ft cubes take 2 of these to cover. i've tried finding it elsewhere but as of yet cant find it


----------



## zekee

Cheers fella


----------



## soundstounite

It's Tom isn't it?

Joe thanks for the help dude:notworthy: I suspect mine is a bit thinner actually guys than 2cm,I'll try and grab a measurement later. Joe i pretty much use it to "edge" a background. Basically a strip up the front backing onto the door runners,and then strips running along the top of the viv. Plus some patches of infill if needed. 

Guys, I make our vivs and work with the top unfitted,but using this method,means anyone can make a background outside the tank and it will always be smaller than the viv,so one never has issues fitting it. I'f i'm working up a polystyrene sheet,say of rocks,I rebate the poly, so it fits slightly over the top of the cork and fits flush to the glass. It not only benefits fitting but removes any possible gaps for frogs to get behind.

It's worth having a chat with Richie at rainforest vivs, we were chatting a while back and I believe he is getting or has got some in stock in a variety of thicknesses. I like the thin stuff myself,I use top runners on the sides of the vivs I build,it gives a wider gap to shut the door into. The cork I use is, bar a gnats, the same width,so it gives a very clean look to the front of the viv 

best

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

it's certainly chunky the one from DF


----------



## zekee

Cheers Stu, and yes my name is Tom


----------



## Meefloaf

where'd you sneak yours from then stu ?


----------



## soundstounite

I got lucky,ok I watched for ages on ebay Joe, a total one off and bought hopefully enough for one dart room,we'll see 

Stu


----------



## PigeonYouDead

As someone who is planning to get some dart frogs in the very near future, this thread is literally, for me, the stuff of dreams.

:flrt: :flrt:

I'm planning on a live planted terrarium and buying 2/3/4 frogs to keep as a small group. I was advised that it's safe to keep 1 female to 3 males, but would I be better off with a pair, one of each gender?


----------



## Ron Magpie

PigeonYouDead said:


> As someone who is planning to get some dart frogs in the very near future, this thread is literally, for me, the stuff of dreams.
> 
> :flrt: :flrt:
> 
> I'm planning on a live planted terrarium and buying 2/3/4 frogs to keep as a small group. I was advised that it's safe to keep 1 female to 3 males, but would I be better off with a pair, one of each gender?


It utterly depends on the species- some are better in pairs, some in male heavy groups, some in female heavy. Talk to Stu and the other people who post in this and similar threads when you decide which species you are going for :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

PigeonYouDead said:


> As someone who is planning to get some dart frogs in the very near future, this thread is literally, for me, the stuff of dreams.
> 
> :flrt: :flrt:
> 
> I'm planning on a live planted terrarium and buying 2/3/4 frogs to keep as a small group. I was advised that it's safe to keep 1 female to 3 males, but would I be better off with a pair, one of each gender?


Yup our dream,I guess one started as a kid and realized as an ancient one in some way shape or form.

Your question requires a species tag,as some species would possibly do better in male high groups,eg tinctorious others female high might work,by and large one shouldn't go far wrong with a pair though,if you want a groups and want to buy young unsexed frogs you possibly won't go far wrong with Leucs,although females could potentially eat others eggs,auratus another choice but be aware they can be shy,but so worth the wait

Good luck with your inroads into this,work hard on the prep before frogs get those feeders wired,forget about frogs until that is sorted,research like there is no tomorrow,what you do now helps so much later on

best

Stu


----------



## PigeonYouDead

soundstounite said:


> Yup our dream,I guess one started as a kid and realized as an ancient one in some way shape or form.
> 
> Your question requires a species tag,as some species would possibly do better in male high groups,eg tinctorious others female high might work,by and large one shouldn't go far wrong with a pair though,if you want a groups and want to buy young unsexed frogs you possibly won't go far wrong with Leucs,although females could potentially eat others eggs,auratus another choice but be aware they can be shy,but so worth the wait
> 
> Good luck with your inroads into this,work hard on the prep before frogs get those feeders wired,forget about frogs until that is sorted,research like there is no tomorrow,what you do now helps so much later on
> 
> best
> 
> Stu



Thanks for your reply. We picked up the tank and misting system yesterday. We've gone for an Exo-Terra 24"x18"x18" with screen top, so we're hoping to have enough room to keep 2-3 adults in there together, species-dependent.

Species wise, I've always had my heart set on tinctorius, but really we want something that is going to be hardy and relatively easy. I realise they're all challenging, but we definitely want the "easiest" to start with, as we've not kept frogs before. Might be a stupid question, but with tinctorius, does it matter if you keep different colour morphs together? I realise you may well get some weird and wonderful variety if they breed, but is the general consensus that they should all be the same?

We're hoping to spend a good few months setting the tank up. We'd like to go for a drip wall along the back and custom build the backdrop with expanding foam and so on. Then our plan is get all the plants in and settled, get the tropical woodlice and springtail community settled, and after that's all been running for a few months without issue then we'll start looking around for the frogs.

I'll stop hijacking your thread now and start my own


----------



## Meefloaf

PigeonYouDead said:


> Might be a stupid question, but with tinctorius, does it matter if you keep different colour morphs together? I realise you may well get some weird and wonderful variety if they breed, but is the general consensus that they should all be the same?


It's not a stupid question but snake style breeding is massively frowned upon in the frog world. we're less mental than the yanks who'd want you to kill the offspring, sell all your frogs, burn your house down and then go live under a bridge where you belong:lol2:

My joking aside its a very big issue in the hobby and i'd avoid it at all costs.

(yeah i had a pop at snake breeders)


----------



## PigeonYouDead

Meefloaf said:


> It's not a stupid question but snake style breeding is massively frowned upon in the frog world. we're less mental than the yanks who'd want you to kill the offspring, sell all your frogs, burn your house down and then go live under a bridge where you belong:lol2:
> 
> My joking aside its a very big issue in the hobby and i'd avoid it at all costs.


As I thought. We're not planning to breed, but obviously if the conditions are right and we've got males and females in there together then it might happen so worth checking now!

It's no issue; the other half will just have to agree to us having loads of different tanks eventually with lots of different colour morphs! :2thumb:


----------



## Meefloaf

PigeonYouDead said:


> As I thought. We're not planning to breed, but obviously if the conditions are right and we've got males and females in there together then it might happen so worth checking now!
> 
> It's no issue; the other half will just have to agree to us having loads of different tanks eventually with lots of different colour morphs! :2thumb:


lol best way mate ! plus they all look different anyway mate even the same morphs all crazy patterns


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

PigeonYouDead said:


> As I thought. We're not planning to breed, but obviously if the conditions are right and we've got males and females in there together then it might happen so worth checking now!
> 
> It's no issue; the other half will just have to agree to us having loads of different tanks eventually with lots of different colour morphs! :2thumb:


take a look at some of the frogs that have some variability in the coloration for example basties, rio brancos there is another one im thinking of starts with a "C" and come in red and blues cant for the life of me remember


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> take a look at some of the frogs that have some variability in the coloration for example basties, rio brancos there is another one im thinking of starts with a "C" and come in red and blues cant for the life of me remember


o. pumilio esperanzaThat's the badgers A:censor: I was thinking 

PS sorry stu ill leave ya thread alone now lol :bash:


----------



## Ron Magpie

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> O.pumilio cauchero That's the badgers A:censor: I was thinking
> *
> PS sorry stu ill leave ya thread alone now lo*l :bash:


Lol, Stu set this page up as a personal exploration, and somehow it has become the equivalent of a village post office (in a good way!); whatever we are all doing, we always come back here to chat and gossip... :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Avillage post office for dart froggie chit chat,ain't so bad is it:lol2:

Yeah don't mix morphs we hate it and burn folks at the stake and make them listen to fireman spam soundtracks while they melt:mf_dribble: sorry I could n't help it 

Seriously though we were given it all mum nature has given us a rainbow of jewels to care for,I can think of no reason, to mix morphs or even species. Although our captive frogs will never be released back to the wild,lets try to keep them as they are,we are on the cusp of some species possibly more accurate to say morphs we keep actually disappearing from the wild,so although our hobby are crap at record keeping there could easily be a day soon where all that is left is in our hands,once morphs are mixed it can't be undone if those crosses find their way into the hobby. This is an extreme example and our hobby's record for heredity is at best a complete shambles,we largely talk about conservation but when the chance comes don't walk that talk,but we can always get better be better. If we have pure morphs to care for we have something,if all we have is mongels then the next guy can't ever go back. 

I think the dart hobby sets it'self apart with this,we don't want designer morphs,I think we could do way better, some of my arguments might be shallow to keep species and morphs thereof as nature intended,by the same token in the midst of a global amphibian crisis ,there is nowt bad in wanting to try and build sustainable pure morphs of frogs in captivity,we adore these frogs I think we can do our bit. If you want to dig further read up on the highland /standard Lamasi,all but gone now from the wild, quite possibly we are to blame, the species possibly safe cites possibly doesn't recognise the morphs,but these are distinct populations where mum nature has allowed them to be just a bit different from anything else on the planet. To me that is incredibly special and to be cherished....especially by us


Holy crap now there's a ramble for a new guy/lass,ahh man they'll never go to the village again let alone the PO:gasp:


Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

p.s burn snake people


----------



## PigeonYouDead

soundstounite said:


> lets try to keep them as they are...
> 
> Holy crap now there's a ramble for a new guy/lass,ahh man they'll never go to the village again let alone the PO:gasp:
> 
> 
> Stu


Lass  lol

It's fine by me, honestly, I completely understand; it was more curiousity than anything else. It's no skin off my nose if I have to have 10 different tanks to cover all the different colours and species I want to own , the fact the fella is on board as well just makes it easier to action!


----------



## Ron Magpie

Meefloaf said:


> p.s burn snake people


Lol, it isn't just snake people, but I really don't get this mania for morphs and mutants- it reminds me of the canary breeders and pigeon fanciers of last century! :lol2:

Actually, my corn snake is a morph :blush:, but on the whole, I far prefer the natural species, and that is what I would buy and keep.


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> p.s burn snake people


From what I get Joe talking to the odd snake guy we have no need,they seem to do that to themselves:lol2:

Hey Lindsey :welcome: good to have another lass joining the ranks,or better still a partnership. It's good to be curious mate,I just wanted to try and convey just why we are so passionate about not mixing in a bit more detail,don't worry kiddo there was nowt other than that to be read into my post. Darts are addictive mate,you'll see,so much more than I thought there could possibly be going on with these frogs. I wish you all the luck mate.

Ron,I can see the appeal,after all I had a lot to do man made birds,and some of these snakes are stunning to my eyes, i'm also fascinated by the genetics. But the man made morphs seem now to dominate some areas of some species in the hobby,and that sort of bothers me. Nature gave us all these amazing animals it all most feels like they are no longer held in the esteem they should be and that their intrinsic natural beauty isn't enough. So although I understand just why folks crave these designer morphs,I do adore the fact that our little section of the hobby are hell bent on trying to stick with pure morphs as best we can. Mind we really do have it all as far as colour and markings go,no man made hybrids will ever compare anyway: victory:

best

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

for me its a case of, when i was a kid i went to the zoo and saw loads of animals and was like "wow they're so cool i want one !". i didnt go "Hmm that snake is rather interesting mother, as does this beside it, golly gosh, i wonder what they'd look like if i bred them together, too the plastic 2inch box shop mummy!"

I wanted to keep the wild animals, it's perhaps wrong i know (if i could i'd have a crocodile) because they fascinate me and i love to take a glimpse into their world, albeit in ours. i feel bad at zoo's and stuff but feel some of them are necessary evil to keep certain species from extinction and to make people aware of such problems. however it is heartbreaking to see a cheetah in a small enclosure, but on the flipside i get to see kasawari's lol


----------



## soundstounite

I hear ya Joe,living near to Paignton zoo where they have space for enclosures,I guess I was spoilt,I've too been to others as I got older,where although the animals were so obviously cared for, for me they deserved better,so share the sadness> By the same token you are right many zoos do an outstanding job of raising awareness and keeping species alive that might be lost.

I use these tubs as you know for our kids,but it isn't an ideal way I'd like to do things( I haven't worked out something better yet) and is only a temporary home,having all these snakes in rubs obviously works,but it's not for me kiddo. 

i think we have it all again here bro.live planted mini ecosystems,slices of a rainforest are what we aspire to. It's another facet of our hobby that makes me feel more comfortable about keeping a wild animal in captivity

seeya

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

your tubs are massive tho Stu, not just big enough for them to curl up in like the snakes usually get. I get it, they live under rocks and trees and such to thermo regulate and hide themselves away till hunting time.....HOWEVER, why bloody keep it then ?i've got a theory

how many of you amphib guys ever completed a Panini football sticker album ? 

Me ? never, I either completed or partially completed the Leeds squad and maybe a few others players I liked, thats about it.

those snake guys have probably got tucked away every edition since their childhood, each completed and filed by the year and even the world cup and european cup. and have probably got drawers stuffed full of swapsies they cant bring themselves to sell "-snort- but it's a 1974 Franz Beckenbauer.......ooooh i wonder if i mated him with Paul Breitner..."


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> your tubs are massive tho Stu, not just big enough for them to curl up in like the snakes usually get. I get it, they live under rocks and trees and such to thermo regulate and hide themselves away till hunting time.....HOWEVER, why bloody keep it then ?i've got a theory
> 
> how many of you amphib guys ever completed a Panini football sticker album ?
> 
> Me ? never, I either completed or partially completed the Leeds squad and maybe a few others players I liked, thats about it.
> 
> those snake guys have probably got tucked away every edition since their childhood, each completed and filed by the year and even the world cup and european cup. and have probably got drawers stuffed full of swapsies they cant bring themselves to sell "-snort- but it's a 1974 Franz Beckenbauer.......ooooh i wonder if i mated him with Paul Breitner..."



He he I just want 50 2'cubes I'll stop battering myself then Joe,as you know I have a bit of a hang up on small enclosures,you might be right kiddo,but the M word and the potential to make lots might be a cause too. Joe the genetics side fascinates me as above,I have the dubious honour of using it to crate the first magpie call ducks,not by chance, here. So I get it on some level,but I think when a snake is valued highly because it is an extreme het hypo thingy and folks don't get the beauty in the original wild animal something is being lost, it's so cool we don't have that in our branch of the hobby.

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

YET, there's already a noticeable rise in people since i've joined this mad world who seem to pop up selling frogs from out of nowhere or asking about breeding and how much they can get. hope no one decides to cross breed because before you know it there will be loads of mong snake people wanting them and then being stupid enough to water down the gene pool in more ways than one:lol2:

btw i do one day hope to have a green tree python, the reason i've not had one yet is the cost and also too many bloody het hypo AJBFbufvehcbhbvbrewiurfvbjbreubv stuff for me to be bothered with yet


----------



## Ron Magpie

Jason the BRB is in a RUB- 'cos that's what he came in- the original idea was that he was just boarding with me for a while. :lol2: It's plenty big enough for him at the mo, and he actually seems quite content, but I will review it as he grows. I've already added leafmould and a branch to 'enrich' things a bit- it'll be interesting to see how he responds.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron ya lost me BRB,blond rosy boa? ahh mate it's all those Dw/GO iso coming back to haunt me...payback time:2thumb::lol2:

Joe you're killing me:lol2::lol2::lol2:

I do adore those green things though,always have:blush:

take care both 

Stu


----------



## PigeonYouDead

soundstounite said:


> Hey Lindsey :welcome: good to have another lass joining the ranks,or better still a partnership. It's good to be curious mate,I just wanted to try and convey just why we are so passionate about not mixing in a bit more detail,don't worry kiddo there was nowt other than that to be read into my post. Darts are addictive mate,you'll see,so much more than I thought there could possibly be going on with these frogs. I wish you all the luck mate.


Thanks 

I've been at work all day speaking to morons, so all I've done is think about the tank and get all giddy haha. Such a nice break from the plethora of stress we currently have going on!

Quick question; how do you affix the substrate to the background? I'm ordering some HA6 silicone now (fish safe so fingers crossed frog safe too) to coat the glass with, and picked up polycell expanding foam (safe or not safe?) Apologies if this is a bimbo question; do you coat the expanding foam with silicone and stick the substrate to that or am I better off with gorilla glue?

Lindsay


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Ron ya lost me BRB,blond rosy boa? ahh mate it's all those Dw/GO iso coming back to haunt me...payback time:2thumb::lol2:
> 
> Joe you're killing me:lol2::lol2::lol2:
> 
> I do adore those green things though,always have:blush:
> 
> take care both
> 
> Stu


Lol! Brazilian rainbow boa- one of the more beautiful of the medium-sized 'big' snakes. I hadn't intended to get another snake at all, but you know how it goes... :whistling2: 

Cut's down my space for new frogs even more, though!


----------



## soundstounite

PigeonYouDead said:


> Thanks
> 
> I've been at work all day speaking to morons, so all I've done is think about the tank and get all giddy haha. Such a nice break from the plethora of stress we currently have going on!
> 
> Quick question; how do you affix the substrate to the background? I'm ordering some HA6 silicone now (fish safe so fingers crossed frog safe too) to coat the glass with, and picked up polycell expanding foam (safe or not safe?) Apologies if this is a bimbo question; do you coat the expanding foam with silicone and stick the substrate to that or am I better off with gorilla glue?
> 
> Lindsay


To be fair i ask the bimbo questions here:bash::whistling2:. As always Linsay no stupid questions,and this is partially one to ask others. I'll give you what I can. I've not used gorrilla glue. We use silicone(aq safe should be frogs safe ,so you are good there) then expanding foam then a product called rockoflex then epoxy resin,that is coloured to hold my subs mix,which constists of ecoearth and peat,in place. Your expanding foam shouldn't have a fire retardant in it,if it does then that needs changing. If you use the silicone method to coat the foam etc,be aware it needs to be bone dry,so if you have one of those bricks it's worth soaking and drying sooner rather than later. Not having used GG I'm unsure.Have a dig for a good GG method as some have had problems,just so you are for warned,some have reported great results,so it's not a product issue its application.

Lindsay it's worth me just mentioning,frogs are very sensitive in some ways,as their skin is so permeable,so don't use any airasols or plug in airfreshners in your house,I know this is totally of topic,but I'd rather you know now.

Mate I'll repeat we are for the most part a small group of freindly folks,always feel you can ask,even if the question sounds really silly please ask,these guys might have a laugh with you,but they would rather help if they possibly can. Dart keeping has many facets,tis a lot to take on board at first,so always ask if you are unsure,we've been there and do understand things can be baffling at first. 

Mate within this morass are some pointers,detailed methods on things like culturing background building bla bla,the search function is a way to pull them,I've unfortunately got no index so trying to find for example how we culture spring tails can be tricky,ha even for me!! 

Ha Ron my snake knowledge is profound:lol2:,thanks for clearing that up mate,I hadn't a clue. Now, I also need some more space for frogs :whistling2:

best

Stu


----------



## PigeonYouDead

soundstounite said:


> To be fair i ask the bimbo questions here:bash::whistling2:. As always Linsay no stupid questions,and this is partially one to ask others. I'll give you what I can. I've not used gorrilla glue. We use silicone(aq safe should be frogs safe ,so you are good there) then expanding foam then a product called rockoflex then epoxy resin,that is coloured to hold my subs mix,which constists of ecoearth and peat,in place. Your expanding foam shouldn't have a fire retardant in it,if it does then that needs changing. If you use the silicone method to coat the foam etc,be aware it needs to be bone dry,so if you have one of those bricks it's worth soaking and drying sooner rather than later. Not having used GG I'm unsure.Have a dig for a good GG method as some have had problems,just so you are for warned,some have reported great results,so it's not a product issue its application.
> 
> *Lindsay it's worth me just mentioning,frogs are very sensitive in some ways,as their skin is so permeable,so don't use any airasols or plug in airfreshners in your house,I know this is totally of topic,but I'd rather you know now.*
> 
> Mate I'll repeat we are for the most part a small group of freindly folks,always feel you can ask,even if the question sounds really silly please ask,these guys might have a laugh with you,but they would rather help if they possibly can. Dart keeping has many facets,tis a lot to take on board at first,so always ask if you are unsure,we've been there and do understand things can be baffling at first.
> 
> Mate within this morass are some pointers,detailed methods on things like culturing background building bla bla,the search function is a way to pull them,I've unfortunately got no index so trying to find for example how we culture spring tails can be tricky,ha even for me!!
> 
> best
> 
> Stu


I was recommended by another person on here to use waterfall expanding foam, says fish safe on the can so fingers crossed, and will take the polycell back. The polycell isn't listed as fire retardant, but all the same, if I can get something that is fish safe then this is bound to be better.

Going to have a think about how to stick the substrate on. Everyone seems to use different methods so will have a read up and come up with a final solution. I'm also looking to do a drip wall (I've looked it up and I don't want to use epiweb stuff because I'm a stubborn little :censor: and I want to do it myself! Lol) so that may determine what I use.

Aerosols etc shouldn't be a problem. I'm asthmatic / have semi-serious allergic dermatitis anyway so I can't use aerosols / airwick plug-ins or any of those other things without feeling like I'm being slowly suffocated in a sea of smells :lol2:. The only thing we have plugged in at the moment is a pheromone diffuser for the dog, but if need be we'll plug that in in another room.

We need to make a contents page for this thread! :lol2:


----------



## Ron Magpie

PigeonYouDead said:


> I was recommended by another person on here to use waterfall expanding foam, says fish safe on the can so fingers crossed, and will take the polycell back. The polycell isn't listed as fire retardant, but all the same, if I can get something that is fish safe then this is bound to be better.
> 
> Going to have a think about how to stick the substrate on. Everyone seems to use different methods so will have a read up and come up with a final solution. I'm also looking to do a drip wall (I've looked it up and I don't want to use epiweb stuff because I'm a stubborn little :censor: and I want to do it myself! Lol) so that may determine what I use.
> 
> Aerosols etc shouldn't be a problem. I'm asthmatic / have semi-serious allergic dermatitis anyway so I can't use aerosols / airwick plug-ins or any of those other things without feeling like I'm being slowly suffocated in a sea of smells :lol2:. The only thing we have plugged in at the moment is a pheromone diffuser for the dog, but if need be we'll plug that in in another room.
> 
> *We need to make a contents page for this thread!* :lol2:


Oh, yes!


----------



## Meefloaf

Woodlice Wizardy - http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/589598-da-dart-room-n-shed-230.html

Springtail Culturing Methodry - http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/589598-da-dart-room-n-shed-188.html

Cutting Glass and Building a Viv - http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/589598-da-dart-room-n-shed-14.html


----------



## PigeonYouDead

Meefloaf said:


> Woodlice Wizardy - http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/589598-da-dart-room-n-shed-230.html
> 
> Springtail Culturing Methodry - http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/589598-da-dart-room-n-shed-188.html
> 
> Cutting Glass and Building a Viv - http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/589598-da-dart-room-n-shed-14.html



Hero Status Obtained. :notworthy:


----------



## Meefloaf

for extra measure, some lovely freshly built viv http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/589598-da-dart-room-n-shed-58.html


----------



## Ron Magpie

PigeonYouDead said:


> Hero Status Obtained. :notworthy:


Joe* is *a bit of a hero, on the quiet... :lol2:


----------



## Meefloaf

Gambit and Boba Fett's love child


----------



## soundstounite

Not saying nuffin but thankyou buddy:whistling2:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

My new fav plant,a liverwort believed to be from Hawaii possibly Riccadia,species as yet unknown,but working on it cracking little thing,so far out performing anything thing else we have used but it's hellish early











These are for Paula,I thought you'ld like this mate a couple of tiny strawberries
Tiny red frog beach and one a bit bigger,rearing in viv this time,still going back and forth between the two methods,pondering detail and which is best for us personally. Oh for a couple of folks here if ya see this this viv has nemerteans,they are the proverbial PITA,but the kids look good and are growing like weeds....motto keep darts be stupid about culturing too much food,or get the ruddy set up right from the off,not easy when you want a natural viv and don't really hold to the boil it bake it ethos,but we all gotta learn huh



















This is lovely she's one of our basti females










take care all

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

they are gorgeous fella, Paula made a massive awwwww sound "they're so cute" :lol2:


----------



## Ron Magpie

Meefloaf said:


> they are gorgeous fella, Paula made a massive awwwww sound "they're so cute" :lol2:


I'm more fascinated by the liverwort, to be honest... :whistling2:

:lol2:


----------



## Meefloaf

Ron Magpie said:


> I'm more fascinated by the liverwort, to be honest... :whistling2:
> 
> :lol2:


got loads on the plants at work


----------



## Ron Magpie

Meefloaf said:


> got loads on the plants at work


Yeah- but most of those won't propagate, in viv conditions. It's really annoying!


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Yeah- but most of those won't propagate, in viv conditions. It's really annoying!


Dude I give ya a stunning tiny red frog,and ya go yeah ok but the liverwort's cool:gasp:. The funny bit Ron I totally get it:blush:

Ron,it's a fascinating plant,it's exactly what I need for a mossy branch look,it's been worked up for a year now as a just got lucky thing that came out of some extraordinarily expensive tropical moss,it's a pure lucky gift mate.If I were to take anything I'd just say I trialed it risking the lot,in various ways,some I did loose. but because I went various on the methods to grow I guess I found something lurking. Ron it's been in vivs for months,say trebled in size,it could all die next week I don't know,tis rare I do back story for the most part with one exception I write about what is happening without hindsight. But I think this is a real doer Ron. It's habit is tight,low growing,the actual moss I care not for,way too leggy,but this little thing is covering the oak slow but sure,and that is way faster than anything I've yet come across,might just have a gem here mate,wish I had a 2'sq of it!!!

Give us another year buddy ,I might actually know:lol2:
Joe cool glad she likes,was thinking of her while trying to get focus and exposure right,I couldn't get the one half white half red though,one day huh

best

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

one day indeed, dangerous thing, i get paid the day before baks in october lol


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Dude I give ya a stunning tiny red frog,and ya go yeah ok but the liverwort's cool:gasp:. The funny bit Ron I totally get it:blush:
> 
> Ron,it's a fascinating plant,it's exactly what I need for a mossy branch look,it's been worked up for a year now as a just got lucky thing that came out of some extraordinarily expensive tropical moss,it's a pure lucky gift mate.If I were to take anything I'd just say I trialed it risking the lot,in various ways,some I did loose. but because I went various on the methods to grow I guess I found something lurking. Ron it's been in vivs for months,say trebled in size,it could all die next week I don't know,tis rare I do back story for the most part with one exception I write about what is happening without hindsight. But I think this is a real doer Ron. It's habit is tight,low growing,the actual moss I care not for,way too leggy,but this little thing is covering the oak slow but sure,and that is way faster than anything I've yet come across,might just have a gem here mate,wish I had a 2'sq of it!!!
> 
> Give us another year buddy ,I might actually know:lol2:
> Joe cool glad she likes,was thinking of her while trying to get focus and exposure right,I couldn't get the one half white half red though,one day huh
> 
> best
> 
> Stu


Dude, when you can grow it to reasonable size (and can pass on the tips as to *how*) I'll buy a piece off of you! :2thumb:


----------



## Meefloaf

Ron Magpie said:


> Dude, when you can grow it to reasonable size (and can pass on the tips as to *how*) I'll buy a piece off of you! :2thumb:


Ron, even at full size i dont think you can buy a piece of a red frog beach


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> Ron, even at full size i dont think you can buy a piece of a red frog beach


 No no Joe he can def buy a peace of red frog beach. That's my worry bro not Ron buying it but what will follow.... man, there is some serious irony in that one:gasp:

Ron as to the liverwort maybe one day,we'll prove it our first though bro,but I'm sure it will look cool in your luec viv


wot? :blush:

Sorry dude:lol2:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

if i end up with a male in my 5 leucs and they have babies, i'll need somewhere for them to go and someone to look after them *cries*


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> Due to huge kindness from Richie at rainforest vivs and my mate Ben we have just taken these little guys on to add to our managerie. they are hopefully two pr of Ranitomeya summersi. We already keep this species as you all know,but our lass seems to lay eggs with no embryos in,so maybe one day we might get a chance to see what we've waited for so long now..
> 
> I'm beyond thrilled and really can't thank the two guys that helped us enough
> 
> Take a look at these beauts
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> Take care
> 
> Stu
> 
> ps I should add these were bred by Mark Pepper of Understory enterprises,so completely sustainable and our hobby's future


whats your plan for these matey? been thinking about these today while at work and thought when I get a spare 10 mins ill kick off a chat with you on them.... 

I know they will be still in QT but whats the bigger plan to get them all in a viv together? am I correct in thinking this is 2 new pairs to add to your one? or one extra pair to add to you existing pair (confusing myself now lol)


----------



## phelsumaman

Dont pressure the man. I think anyone who as read even part of this thread knows that Stu takes his time over these things 

Ben


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

phelsumaman said:


> Dont pressure the man. I think anyone who as read even part of this thread knows that Stu takes his time over these things
> 
> Ben


We have to keep him on his toes 
push him and his room to more amazing greatness 


Thanks 
Dane


----------



## soundstounite

Ha you buggers are way too kind.:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Dane the new guys are still in qt,they are absolutely fine(hope I haven't hexed my self) at this time and i'm pondering getting them to viv fairly soon,I think it's just on 2 months now? Mate they are supposedly two pairs,but a best guess senario by Mr Pepper. At this time I'd say def one female,not sure on the others,just on sheer size,but they are still fairly young,no calling that I've heard,mind call is so quiet,I could easily miss it!
They are hopefully going together in a separate viv,It's been specifically designed with a rock jutting out in the center as a visual blocker. Summersi are said to do ok in groups,but I have no one really to pull info off here. Plus these frogs obey their own rules ,the more I learn,the more i think all individuals,so the boys could get on might not,but I've tried to pre-empt probs with the viv layout.

Dane as you know my other pair,don't lay good eggs,and I'll always keep them .It's so damn weird though no embryos. Ed on DB told me the embryo traveling down the oviduct is the trigger for the jelly,so just in case they are eating there own eggs,I've choosen this route,at this time, and we'll see what happens as they mature and go from there. They are all UE stock mate,so at some stage I might just split out the male from "my" pair and try another,if it turns out we have more than one male,or get probs or even hold a kid back,he said dreaming,quietly of tiny summersi. 

As you can see from the pics markings are very similar so I'm trying to get their noses fixed in my think old skull,all are slightly different. Dane often my pair are sat somewhere slightly hidden,but facing me watching ,maybe more springs:mf_dribble:,so nose id is really useful it seems. Ahh things you just don't need to know are always found here:lol2:

Mate they are going in the viv right,next to the others ,bottom left,12 rack. It seemd logical to have them close as one I know already temps are spot on down there for summersi to breed and second the calling between both sets of frogs might just help get some breeding underway,yeah in my dreams. 

There ya go mate fire away,'ere while we are talking fantastica clade,how's your lot going on?

take care ya'll

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

It's actually becoming almost a point of honour not to have any darts- in fact I may change my sig to 'Proud Owner of No Darts Whatsoever' :lol2:


----------



## Meefloaf

Ron Magpie said:


> It's actually becoming almost a point of honour not to have any darts- in fact I may change my sig to 'Proud Owner of No Darts Whatsover' :lol2:


a shop i visited today had skiny fire bellied toads as fire bellied newts, they dont half jump about mind


----------



## Ron Magpie

Meefloaf said:


> a shop i visited today had skiny fire bellied toads as fire bellied newts, they dont half jump about mind


Yeah, they are fairly commonly available and pretty easy to keep- but they give me a great deal of satisfaction!


----------



## Meefloaf

they labelled them wrong tho ron lol, still they intrigued me somewhat


----------



## Ron Magpie

They are often skinny because (as with ADFs) shops insist on feeding them only on bloodworm- it makes me pretty angry! :devil:

But enough de-railing...


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> It's actually becoming almost a point of honour not to have any darts- in fact I may change my sig to 'Proud Owner of No Darts Whatsoever' :lol2:



It's weird being part of a majority Ron that's for sure:gasp: But the flip side is in my above post i'm pondering a frog that maybe a handful of folks keep here at best. I think we are just plain lucky in the nature of these frogs ,how they breed small and repetively,means we just possibly post more,plus the diurnal aspect. I'd love to know what say the number of firebellied keepers are compared to dart keepers.

It's probably we just plain talk too much,where as the other guys just sit patiently waiting for the lasagna to move.It's the diversity, what nearly 200 species,that's probably the real reason something for everyone mate,you really don't think a sig will stop us trying to convert you do you:gasp:

Each to their own mate:2thumb:,in all seriousness i'd love a more diverse collection in many ways,but all this fits together so well I'm happy enough with what we are up to it's incredibly absorbing,something is always happening,so much to learn!!. 
seeya

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> It's weird being part of a majority Ron that's for sure:gasp: But the flip side is in my above post i'm pondering a frog that maybe a handful of folks keep here at best. I think we are just plain lucky in the nature of these frogs ,how they breed small and repetively,means we just possibly post more,plus the diurnal aspect. I'd love to know what say the number of firebellied keepers are compared to dart keepers.
> 
> It's probably we just plain talk too much,where as the other guys just sit patiently waiting for the lasagna to move.It's the diversity, what nearly 200 species,that's probably the real reason something for everyone mate,you really don't think a sig will stop us trying to convert you do you:gasp:
> 
> Each to their own mate:2thumb:,in all seriousness i'd love a more diverse collection in many ways,but all this fits together so well I'm happy enough with what we are up to it's incredibly absorbing,something is always happening,so much to learn!!.
> seeya
> 
> Stu


To be honest, I think it's just a coincidence that the most vocal keepers at the mo tend to be dart keepers. I don't have any problem with that at all, except when, as in that other thread, the assumption is that when you are talking about frogs, it *must* be about darts- there *are* another 26-odd interesting families of anurans, after all! Don't ever take that as a denigration of what you do, though, mate- I'm following the threads of you and the other dart-keepers with just as much fascination!


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> To be honest, I think it's just a coincidence that the most vocal keepers at the mo tend to be dart keepers. I don't have any problem with that at all, except when, as in that other thread, the assumption is that when you are talking about frogs, it *must* be about darts- there *are* another 26-odd interesting families of anurans, after all! Don't ever take that as a denigration of what you do, though, mate- I'm following the threads of you and the other dart-keepers with just as much fascination!


I have to say I'd love seeing more other froggy, toad,newt Sal threads Ron,we simply don't have enough of them!! Watching Martin's(earthfrog?) threads on how he was breeding was utterly fascinating. It's that though Ron which I find deeply of interest,how folks are breeding. I guess we all have to make choices on what we can keep,but I think all of it to be huge interest,think we are of the same mind here. Sure we keep differing animals,but that isn't the whole picture,at all

Ron I didn't assume the guy wanted darts,the heart wrench of walking into a battery house, of seeing what I know a bird should be( and as humble as I am mate,I really know these guys),the stench of ammonia the heat, knowing that abhorance, no feather, no room to move, 6 to a cage and bars to walk on was their whole life, possibly clouded my judgement somewhat?? Frankly it made a grown man cry. That will always spill over into how I keep and what I think is right. Now you made a very very valid point late last night and sure it was taken on board and pondered still is being. There is quite probably a good cause for small vivs for some species,I'd need to keep and see. 

Mate if we go way back to ickle mate,small tubs to get a dart started to provide the dense microfauna needed,is what I was taught all the reading said do this,I do the reading,but it's not true. So the only real bit I am still wondering on is what if I kept that which I don't.

But hey mate although that post has messed with me for days now:bash:,it's still cool talking with a friend,where one can just ponder the other's point of view,that's the crack no rock hurling just OK cool I understand what you are on about I'll ponder that sh*t

take care bro

Froggies:mf_dribble:

Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

God stop posting I can't read that fast have loads of questions but got to make tea (even meal for northerners) and got a hectic night arrrrr 


Thanks 
Dane


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> I have to say I'd love seeing more other froggy, toad,newt Sal threads Ron,we simply don't have enough of them!! Watching Martin's(earthfrog?) threads on how he was breeding was utterly fascinating. It's that though Ron which I find deeply of interest,how folks are breeding. I guess we all have to make choices on what we can keep,but I think all of it to be huge interest,think we are of the same mind here. Sure we keep differing animals,but that isn't the whole picture,at all
> 
> Ron I didn't assume the guy wanted darts,the heart wrench of walking into a battery house, of seeing what I know a bird should be( and as humble as I am mate,I really know these guys),the stench of ammonia the heat, knowing that abhorance, no feather, no room to move, 6 to a cage and bars to walk on was their whole life, possibly clouded my judgement somewhat?? Frankly it made a grown man cry. That will always spill over into how I keep and what I think is right. Now you made a very very valid point late last night and sure it was taken on board and pondered still is being. There is quite probably a good cause for small vivs for some species,I'd need to keep and see.
> 
> Mate if we go way back to ickle mate,small tubs to get a dart started to provide the dense microfauna needed,is what I was taught all the reading said do this,I do the reading,but it's not true. So the only real bit I am still wondering on is what if I kept that which I don't.
> 
> But hey mate although that post has messed with me for days now:bash:,it's still cool talking with a friend,where one can just ponder the other's point of view,that's the crack no rock hurling just OK cool I understand what you are on about I'll ponder that sh*t
> 
> take care bro
> 
> Froggies:mf_dribble:
> 
> Stu


The one thing *neither* of us has to worry about is that we are friends.


----------



## Meefloaf

i'll bring the rum and strawberry wine, bro-fest


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

Ill bring the lube
Stu I have loads of questions bro but elbow deep in sticks and gorilla glue for the RFB viv that I need to finish hold on ill reply either tonight or tomorrow  


Thanks 
Dane


----------



## Meefloaf

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> *Ill bring the lube*
> Stu I have loads of questions bro *but elbow deep* in sticks and gorilla glue for the RFB viv that I need to finish hold on ill reply either tonight or tomorrow
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Dane


:eek4::eek4::eek4::eek4:


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

Meefloaf said:


> :eek4::eek4::eek4::eek4:


Don't knock till u tried it 


Thanks 
Dane


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> God stop posting I can't read that fast have loads of questions but got to make tea (even meal for northerners) and got a hectic night arrrrr
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Dane


Shuudup already: got 6 new culture tubs made up for new iso plus others expanding, fixed chuck shed from fox attack, fed all da froshe plus added da new leaves, have a cup of char write some cobblers,new atachi tads in da water:whistling2: removed bad egg fron azzie clutch,pulled new SB clutch(checked all the others too) and and yeah been to work too:Na_Na_Na_Na: oh forgot sorted out mad Roses growing on garage checked all da broms fed extra to teeny tiny RFB kids nearly got through all the springs, 

Bloody drummers able to multi task huh, welcome to my world,going back in a mo when i've seen wot Ron said

But at my age damn I'm way too old for this,:flrt: it though

Ahh hell too long since we've had

bring it on

Catchya soon buddy,I don't promise answers though I'm as confused as the next guy:lol2:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> Ill bring the lube
> Stu I have loads of questions bro but elbow deep in sticks and gorilla glue for the RFB viv that I need to finish hold on ill reply either tonight or tomorrow
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Dane


Swarfega mate I only do green:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Buddy take your time,both with the viv and the replies,but mainly the viv, I might still be alive tomorrow:gasp:. RFb ahh mate you got to see the guy that is split white and red,haven't got him on camera yet
but what can i say evasive is the word,not from me just the ruddy snap machine
Ron thanks bro,folks learn more when the BS goes out the window!!

Seeya

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

less of this red frog beach business, i can see paula's ears picking up:lol2:

on a small note, no rush stu, these Auratus of yours, do you think they could tackle hydei atm?


----------



## PigeonYouDead

soundstounite said:


> Ron I didn't assume the guy wanted darts,the heart wrench of walking into a battery house, of seeing what I know a bird should be( and as humble as I am mate,I really know these guys),the stench of ammonia the heat, knowing that abhorance, no feather, no room to move, 6 to a cage and bars to walk on was their whole life, possibly clouded my judgement somewhat?? Frankly it made a grown man cry. That will always spill over into how I keep and what I think is right. Now you made a very very valid point late last night and sure it was taken on board and pondered still is being. There is quite probably a good cause for small vivs for some species,I'd need to keep and see.


This is something that never ceases to upset me. Animals being kept like crap. Thus far the only animal I've come across that doesn't like lots of room to move about in is a ball python lol. Off-topic but I saw a vid a couple of weeks ago of some cows being released from being indoor farmed after years... hang on... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUZ1YLhIAg8

My attitude on it, is that these animals never chose their life, they didn't choose to be pets or to live with us, so at the very least, we should give them the best life possible while they are with us.


----------



## PigeonYouDead

Ron Magpie said:


> It's actually becoming almost a point of honour not to have any darts- in fact I may change my sig to 'Proud Owner of No Darts Whatsoever' :lol2:


I can see myself becoming the crazy tree frog lady. And ever since you mentioned you kept reed frogs, I cannot get over how ridiculously cute they are!

Kermit coat anyone?


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> less of this red frog beach business, i can see paula's ears picking up:lol2:
> 
> on a small note, no rush stu, these Auratus of yours, do you think they could tackle hydei atm?


Joe I'm finished so there is no rush just waiting for the amazing food Shaz has made to get cold enough to eat:2thumb: Buddy auratus well grown as tads can take hydie from the off. Mate it's a bit of a push for them so I would always start on mels and springs,but they have been feeding on hydei for ages now here,there is no problem with you giving them the large fly,where I'd be gentle is the bean weavils,just a few,they haven't seen those yet,so ease them into that gently. But all FF springs ,dwarf white had from way back ,you are good with all that.
Actually Joe the rate these guys are growing you need the "meat" of a hydei in my eyes,plus all the other stuff

How did the shed go bro?

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

AHA the shed, yeah, lol i'll be digging up the garden and setting a new foundation down the garden for it to sit on, just not enough space up top.

shall get em on them, thought they were big enough for em, just didnt want to rush em into the hydei like, cheers brudda

Joe


----------



## soundstounite

To be fair Linds I think Dane would like that coat,I best not go any further though i've done enough damage tonight:lol2:

Joe,proper serious head on!! 

Do you remember that post about growing tincs out,these are very similar,slightly different in that they will breed much earlier and I think? still grow while breeding,where I think tincs just wont or it will slow their capacity for growth to full size,or even prevent it. Mate I'll need years to be sure on all this. But at this stage in my froggy learning ,you need to pile the grub into these guys and you probably won't see them get fat while in these teen months. Pretty much everythiong you bung at them is going into growth I believe. Glenn mentioned to me the fact he thinks of tincs as not great hunters,but auratus are,so there is a slight subtle difference between the two in that I think the auratus burn more cals hunting but are better at it and tincs need more food to graze on almost. As the auratus close on a year,then thingsgs might start to change with their weight,this is when you'll start hopefully to see breeding,so the right amount of food is tricky to assimilate. you'll have to watch hard at that stage mate and try and work out what ou think is best. But for the moment hammer the food. what this won 't allow you is the luxary of using food to get them tamer,a hungrey frog becomes bold much easier,but that will come anyway and it seems you are already on that path. sure if you start to see them getting fat as kids bin all this,and do what you think best mate. but these guys are very different to leucs in my eyes in this weight gain malarky. At this time we have only reared two morphs,but we have done a good few,there is a clear pattern there hammer that food,they are perfectly geared for the summer mate,if you can find a safe source of aphid crack into them I'm pretty much convinced any extra calories are going to be an asset over the next months

head down on the shed mate,hit the bugger hard and then the pain goes away

good luck mate ha got little lines on the new Sb eggs,off we go again

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

i shall get them filled up then mate, cheers for the words, if feeding my leucs is owt to go by, these guys wont be hungry lol, lil podgy leucs


----------



## Ron Magpie

PigeonYouDead said:


> This is something that never ceases to upset me. Animals being kept like crap. Thus far the only animal I've come across that doesn't like lots of room to move about in is a ball python lol. Off-topic but I saw a vid a couple of weeks ago of some cows being released from being indoor farmed after years... hang on... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUZ1YLhIAg8
> 
> My attitude on it, is that these animals never chose their life, they didn't choose to be pets or to live with us, so at the very least, we should give them the best life possible while they are with us.


I agree, so far as it goes, but I'm a bit fed up with being accused of keeping my animals like crap.


----------



## Meefloaf

Ron Magpie said:


> I agree, so far as it goes, but I'm a bit fed up with being accused of keeping my animals like crap.


you keep cows ?


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> Ha you buggers are way too kind.:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> Dane the new guys are still in qt,they are absolutely fine(hope I haven't hexed my self) at this time and i'm pondering getting them to viv fairly soon,I think it's just on 2 months now? Mate they are supposedly two pairs,but a best guess senario by Mr Pepper. At this time I'd say def one female,not sure on the others,just on sheer size,but they are still fairly young,no calling that I've heard,mind call is so quiet,I could easily miss it!
> They are hopefully going together in a separate viv,It's been specifically designed with a rock jutting out in the center as a visual blocker. Summersi are said to do ok in groups,but I have no one really to pull info off here. Plus these frogs obey their own rules ,the more I learn,the more i think all individuals,so the boys could get on might not,but I've tried to pre-empt probs with the viv layout.
> 
> Dane as you know my other pair,don't lay good eggs,and I'll always keep them .It's so damn weird though no embryos. Ed on DB told me the embryo traveling down the oviduct is the trigger for the jelly,so just in case they are eating there own eggs,I've choosen this route,at this time, and we'll see what happens as they mature and go from there. They are all UE stock mate,so at some stage I might just split out the male from "my" pair and try another,if it turns out we have more than one male,or get probs or even hold a kid back,he said dreaming,quietly of tiny summersi.
> 
> As you can see from the pics markings are very similar so I'm trying to get their noses fixed in my think old skull,all are slightly different. Dane often my pair are sat somewhere slightly hidden,but facing me watching ,maybe more springs:mf_dribble:,so nose id is really useful it seems. Ahh things you just don't need to know are always found here:lol2:
> 
> Mate they are going in the viv right,next to the others ,bottom left,12 rack. It seemd logical to have them close as one I know already temps are spot on down there for summersi to breed and second the calling between both sets of frogs might just help get some breeding underway,yeah in my dreams.
> 
> There ya go mate fire away,'ere while we are talking fantastica clade,how's your lot going on?
> 
> take care ya'll
> 
> Stu


Well as work is been a little slow today I have found a nice quiet spot when I can sit and start to read / ponder and reply J 

1st thing nice one mate you have another 2 pairs that will be 6 froggies in total that must give you a pretty good chance of getting one good breeding pair, how old are they mate sorry if you have covered that before cant seem to find it. im very interested in how this venture pans out for you after following this thread for some time and seen the ups and down you have had with the other pair I really cant wait to see possitive progress, I have read a fair bit on some websites and stuff and by all accounts they suggest there not particularly difficult to breed, which I find strange if they are easy I don’t understand why the hobby has such a high demand for them . 

I would also like to know what plans you have in mind when breeding occurs mate, as we know rani can deposit eggs for the tads (debate on whether this is intentional or not seems to be different for each species) as you know I have a few rani species and have noticed minimal parent skills the vents will deposit eggs all over the place and I do not for one minute think their intension is to raise the tad but it works… I have raised both in and out of the tank for comparison and experience and noticed no difference In health or size. Only thing I do find which maybe stating the obvious is breeding slows down if left I the viv as the tad will eat any eggs or other tads sharing the same home . are your plans to pull the eggs or leave them to it

Viv – yes im sure you showed me the viv with the divide mate but for the life of me I cant remember the size. I did see your pair and their little hiding place where they can be seen but feel enclosed enough to feel secure which is a great piece of viv design mate. I cant help on the embryo thing dude but it would be very interesting to find out if the issue your getting is either down to the male / female or inexperience on the frogs part, would be good to see what happens if she is mated with a diff male and also the male mated with a diff female, maybe there is nothing wrong with them individually but together something is not clicking who knows mate I have no answers but knowing you im sure u will not this rest 

Well my fants are all alive which is good. Due to the change of plans for this year I had to design a racking system to maximise the usage of the space I had available, this has meant I have had to get 14 vivs to fit in the rack using the 60 deep method this means viv design and planting is been slow so all my frogs that had a viv of the old size is been looked after but not spraying enough to get the breeding going as I don’t want to start something then have to move…. Saying that I have a strong belief I have all males and 1 female varado (spelling) I have arrange to get some more but time is causing a huge issue for me at the moment and with the car been out of action im really struggling. I also have alot of frogs in QT at the moment but what has been integrated into the rack is doing very well the black jeans and retics are settled and started breeding, also I don’t want everything to be going at once this will cause me to burn out lol as much I would love lots of baby frogs I need to be realistic in my own capabilities. So all I all im doing very well. The RFB viv will be completed tonight and set up I wil give this 2 months before frogs get in as I have a shortage on plants so trying to use these I got from you as my master plant and use cuttings this will save money but takes longer to get the viv ready. Good news is I have bought a green house to start my own plant collection lol 

Dane


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I agree, so far as it goes, but I'm a bit fed up with being accused of keeping my animals like crap.


Holy cow, utterly not the case Ron,don't normally let go of much said in PM dude ,but if i thought that,I would not have said pretty much the exact opposite to Linds last night privately, kiddo,wrong end of the stick mate completely!!

Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

Ron Magpie said:


> I agree, so far as it goes, but I'm a bit fed up with being accused of keeping my animals like crap.


im lost on this one



soundstounite said:


> Holy cow, utterly not the case Ron,don't normally let go of much said in PM dude ,but if i thought that,I would not have said pretty much the exact opposite to Linds last night privately, kiddo,wrong end of the stick mate completely!!
> 
> Stu


 and this one.... 

well if im not in the clique ill get ma coat :lol2:


----------



## Ron Magpie

Apologies to anyone that I misinterpreted! Oh, and Dane, you are the *Don* of the clique! Leave your coat where it is!:lol2:


----------



## Meefloaf




----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> image


Joe why do I get a medalion and you just a hat and tie?:gasp:

Ron it's a nothing buddy no need for apologies just web misunderstnding:2thumb:. Right lets see if I can get us back to scratching our colective heads on rani with Dane.

best
Stu


----------



## PigeonYouDead

Ron Magpie said:


> I agree, so far as it goes, but I'm a bit fed up with being accused of keeping my animals like crap.


Ah dude, I totally didn't mean it like that. I'm not saying that 1 pair of frogs need a 6ft x 6ft tank, just enough room to flop about in and exhibit normal behaviour. If I could I would love a field for a garden for my dog, but sadly at the moment I have basically a glorified patio. He gets walks and so on, but I'd love to do more for him eventually.


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> Well as work is been a little slow today I have found a nice quiet spot when I can sit and start to read / ponder and reply J
> 
> 1st thing nice one mate you have another 2 pairs that will be 6 froggies in total that must give you a pretty good chance of getting one good breeding pair, how old are they mate sorry if you have covered that before cant seem to find it. im very interested in how this venture pans out for you after following this thread for some time and seen the ups and down you have had with the other pair I really cant wait to see possitive progress, I have read a fair bit on some websites and stuff and by all accounts they suggest there not particularly difficult to breed, which I find strange if they are easy I don’t understand why the hobby has such a high demand for them .
> 
> I would also like to know what plans you have in mind when breeding occurs mate, as we know rani can deposit eggs for the tads (debate on whether this is intentional or not seems to be different for each species) as you know I have a few rani species and have noticed minimal parent skills the vents will deposit eggs all over the place and I do not for one minute think their intension is to raise the tad but it works… I have raised both in and out of the tank for comparison and experience and noticed no difference In health or size. Only thing I do find which maybe stating the obvious is breeding slows down if left I the viv as the tad will eat any eggs or other tads sharing the same home . are your plans to pull the eggs or leave them to it
> 
> Viv – yes im sure you showed me the viv with the divide mate but for the life of me I cant remember the size. I did see your pair and their little hiding place where they can be seen but feel enclosed enough to feel secure which is a great piece of viv design mate. I cant help on the embryo thing dude but it would be very interesting to find out if the issue your getting is either down to the male / female or inexperience on the frogs part, would be good to see what happens if she is mated with a diff male and also the male mated with a diff female, maybe there is nothing wrong with them individually but together something is not clicking who knows mate I have no answers but knowing you im sure u will not this rest
> 
> Well my fants are all alive which is good. Due to the change of plans for this year I had to design a racking system to maximise the usage of the space I had available, this has meant I have had to get 14 vivs to fit in the rack using the 60 deep method this means viv design and planting is been slow so all my frogs that had a viv of the old size is been looked after but not spraying enough to get the breeding going as I don’t want to start something then have to move…. Saying that I have a strong belief I have all males and 1 female varado (spelling) I have arrange to get some more but time is causing a huge issue for me at the moment and with the car been out of action im really struggling. I also have alot of frogs in QT at the moment but what has been integrated into the rack is doing very well the black jeans and retics are settled and started breeding, also I don’t want everything to be going at once this will cause me to burn out lol as much I would love lots of baby frogs I need to be realistic in my own capabilities. So all I all im doing very well. The RFB viv will be completed tonight and set up I wil give this 2 months before frogs get in as I have a shortage on plants so trying to use these I got from you as my master plant and use cuttings this will save money but takes longer to get the viv ready. Good news is I have bought a green house to start my own plant collection lol
> 
> Dane


Dane I might not finish this now bare with me kiddo. 

First up mate i'm no rani guru,,well frankly no guru at all,just write what I'm seeing really cock ups an all. As far as I can make out it's the vanzo clade,vanzolini and imis that show non obligate parental care,the fantastica clade don't egg feed to my knowledge,I'll stand corrected on that.I simply don't know what's going on with the vents mate,I thought they had to be pulled? I'll be pulling all eggs Dane,I'd just be happy at this time to see a proper egg,that will be massive for me,from there I can do stuff,without i'm here 

I think summersi are scarce here for two reasons,one difficult to acquire in the first place( the confusion with the banded imis don't help either),second I believe they are sporadic breeders. I don't know exactly why mate,but the dry habitat in which they live might just be a big part of that. So if one couples a fairly small clutch with frogs that don 't repeat lay every few days/ weeks, then I think this is part of it all. It's difficult mate I know how to switch them on and off almost,but when I introduce the wet and they court they have never repeat layed. But I have never even had a fertile egg let alone reared any so I might be way off the mark. .

Thanks kiddo it's a nut i have to crack,over time we might just learn why my pair do what they do,so the mo.we'll hope for one pair that breeds from that every thing is possible.

Dane I've bred dendros excidobates small ,large oopgaga,but no rani. My hunch is you won't see the same number of kids in the rani genus as I might deal with,that said the pragamtism of not over stretching you're self is where it's at. I'm talking for two,the workload is shared,but I'm so wary of breeding too many I throw huge amounts of eggs away. Mate once we are stretched,we can't produce the best frogs,that's the goal if we want to breed the best to pass on to the next guy. But the work load for large frogs is not the same as for small. Because of the sheer volume of food needing to be cultured. Mate you said this way back ,I don't want to go there "be stretched",I actually remember:gasp:,stay where you are bro the thought process is spot on.

So grats on the Black jeans buddy grats on the pondering. On your breediing
Dane if I missed anything buddy shout at me and I'll fill in the gaps

Now:Na_Na_Na_Na: tell me about powder blue iso,what da ya know mate,humidity compared to say DW,you have got them have you not,or did i imagiine that along with the other stuff

Joe just a note,re your reply relative to leucs,auratus are like tincs for me not leucs.Leucs grab the weight,tincs auaratus burn it,i did the detail in my reply but aurartus in that teen stage ,for me ,are different to leucs. you need to feed more to these guys,getting a leuc fat is much easier,not necessarily desirable,but easier in my eyes than the others


be lucky both

Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> Dane I might not finish this now bare with me kiddo.
> 
> First up mate i'm no rani guru,,well frankly no guru at all,just write what I'm seeing really cock ups an all. As far as I can make out it's the vanzo clade,vanzolini and imis that show non obligate parental care,the fantastica clade don't egg feed to my knowledge,I'll stand corrected on that.I simply don't know what's going on with the vents mate,I thought they had to be pulled? I'll be pulling all eggs Dane,I'd just be happy at this time to see a proper egg,that will be massive for me,from there I can do stuff,without i'm here
> 
> I think summersi are scarce here for two reasons,one difficult to acquire in the first place( the confusion with the banded imis don't help either),second I believe they are sporadic breeders. I don't know exactly why mate,but the dry habitat in which they live might just be a big part of that. So if one couples a fairly small clutch with frogs that don 't repeat lay every few days/ weeks, then I think this is part of it all. It's difficult mate I know how to switch them on and off almost,but when I introduce the wet and they court they have never repeat layed. But I have never even had a fertile egg let alone reared any so I might be way off the mark. .
> 
> Thanks kiddo it's a nut i have to crack,over time we might just learn why my pair do what they do,so the mo.we'll hope for one pair that breeds from that every thing is possible.
> 
> Dane I've bred dendros excidobates small ,large oopgaga,but no rani. My hunch is you won't see the same number of kids in the rani genus as I might deal with,that said the pragamtism of not over stretching you're self is where it's at. I'm talking for two,the workload is shared,but I'm so wary of breeding too many I throw huge amounts of eggs away. Mate once we are stretched,we can't produce the best frogs,that's the goal if we want to breed the best to pass on to the next guy. But the work load for large frogs is not the same as for small. Because of the sheer volume of food needing to be cultured. Mate you said this way back ,I don't want to go there "be stretched",I actually remember:gasp:,stay where you are bro the thought process is spot on.
> 
> So grats on the Black jeans buddy grats on the pondering. On your breediing
> Dane if I missed anything buddy shout at me and I'll fill in the gaps
> 
> Now:Na_Na_Na_Na: tell me about powder blue iso,what da ya know mate,humidity compared to say DW,you have got them have you not,or did i imagiine that along with the other stuff
> 
> Joe just a note,re your reply relative to leucs,auratus are like tincs for me not leucs.Leucs grab the weight,tincs auaratus burn it,i did the detail in my reply but aurartus in that teen stage ,for me ,are different to leucs. you need to feed more to these guys,getting a leuc fat is much easier,not necessarily desirable,but easier in my eyes than the others
> 
> 
> be lucky both
> 
> Stu


with the vents they lay eggs in mass mate their a rani but not like the rest I have that lay small clutch of 2 or 3 they lay 5-6 every other day or so there crazy that's why the viv rearing has been so successful the feed the tad without knowing it lol also they will get the odd fly and what not

taken from the denroworks website...

"Breeding Summersi in the vivarium is straight forward, we provide film canisters (to replicate the tree holes as well as _*Dieffenbachia*_ which they use in the wild) hidden deep in the leaf litter, which they happily use to deposit tadpoles with metamorphosis usually occurring between 90-100 days later. Summersi work well in small mixed sex groups as opposed to pairs, and are an excellent dartfrog for keepers looking for a slightly more *challenging* species."

you got some of this diffenbachia mate?? challenging is an understatement lol

well I for one cant wait to see how this progresses mate please keep us updated with pics would love to see them once you get them settled in viv.

blue iso's was something I tried to get hold of, from what I understand there very similar to the purple and striped and if I ever got some would keep them the same way.... not sure how you keep yours but I keep these a little dryer then whites I also keep the GO and Cuban grey kind of dry

I found if too wet they die lost a few cultures to what I believed was overwatering. whites are bullet proof and the striped are very tolerant of temps can be kept in fridge if you want wont breed but can survive


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> with the vents they lay eggs in mass mate their a rani but not like the rest I have that lay small clutch of 2 or 3 they lay 5-6 every other day or so there crazy that's why the viv rearing has been so successful the feed the tad without knowing it lol also they will get the odd fly and what not
> 
> taken from the denroworks website...
> 
> "Breeding Summersi in the vivarium is straight forward, we provide film canisters (to replicate the tree holes as well as _*Dieffenbachia*_ which they use in the wild) hidden deep in the leaf litter, which they happily use to deposit tadpoles with metamorphosis usually occurring between 90-100 days later. Summersi work well in small mixed sex groups as opposed to pairs, and are an excellent dartfrog for keepers looking for a slightly more *challenging* species."
> 
> you got some of this diffenbachia mate?? challenging is an understatement lol
> 
> well I for one cant wait to see how this progresses mate please keep us updated with pics would love to see them once you get them settled in viv.
> 
> blue iso's was something I tried to get hold of, from what I understand there very similar to the purple and striped and if I ever got some would keep them the same way.... not sure how you keep yours but I keep these a little dryer then whites I also keep the GO and Cuban grey kind of dry
> 
> I found if too wet they die lost a few cultures to what I believed was overwatering. whites are bullet proof and the striped are very tolerant of temps can be kept in fridge if you want wont breed but can survive


Dane as far as I can make out the Diffenbachia being used,by darts for depo sites are BIG plants, so unless we go for a room sized viv,I think we will be scuppered from using. It's where the leaf joins the stem that axil that catches enough water for a tad. But again I'd need to really dig about,for you and I'd gladly stand corrected, I think pums use them too mate?

Dane as far as a challenge,I think of all the frogs as just that,all having particular requirements,to be met. But the big things for me are thus,having a male and female that like each other, the right viv design,if mine has a flaw at the mo,I'd say not enough overhead cover/too open/too bright. Then getting viable eggs. I nearly got there with the first pair kiddo. I've seen all the courtship the whole shebang,just no good eggs,so that's where it stops. but Graham may well be spot on, in that if one can get past that initial stage of a good egg,things may well be straight forward,time will tell bro. Note the rocks on the floor too mate. Second viv design after keeping for a while should be nearer the mark I guess.

thanks on the iso kiddo,I've just got some which I thought were sold as cuban
see here,possibly we have one in the same and nomenclature has gone astray somewhere?

Cool new isopods added to my growing collection - Dendroboard

I keep the little fast buggers:blush: wettist,then DW and dwarf striped roughly the same then GO a fair bit drier. But the single vent at one end always gives me that humidity gradient. since we went on to the vented culture,we haven't lost ,one culture,to a crash. But I've had a few invaded by bloody DW and the striped seem to be Houdinis too. Ha found one in the new summersi viv a few days back,which is say 6 ' from the nearest culture. But i've only seeded with whites. As we make up new cultures now all get a bit of mesh in the inside. they eat the blue cloth vent:bash:,leatways I think that's what is happening.

Seeya

Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> Dane as far as I can make out the Diffenbachia being used,by darts for depo sites are BIG plants, so unless we go for a room sized viv,I think we will be scuppered from using. It's where the leaf joins the stem that axil that catches enough water for a tad. But again I'd need to really dig about,for you and I'd gladly stand corrected, I think pums use them too mate?
> 
> Dane as far as a challenge,I think of all the frogs as just that,all having particular requirements,to be met. But the big things for me are thus,having a male and female that like each other, the right viv design,if mine has a flaw at the mo,I'd say not enough overhead cover/too open/too bright. Then getting viable eggs. I nearly got there with the first pair kiddo. I've seen all the courtship the whole shebang,just no good eggs,so that's where it stops. but Graham may well be spot on, in that if one can get past that initial stage of a good egg,things may well be straight forward,time will tell bro. Note the rocks on the floor too mate. Second viv design after keeping for a while should be nearer the mark I guess.
> 
> thanks on the iso kiddo,I've just got some which I thought were sold as cuban
> see here,possibly we have one in the same and nomenclature has gone astray somewhere?
> 
> Cool new isopods added to my growing collection - Dendroboard
> 
> I keep the little fast buggers:blush: wettist,then DW and dwarf striped roughly the same then GO a fair bit drier. But the single vent at one end always gives me that humidity gradient. since we went on to the vented culture,we haven't lost ,one culture,to a crash. But I've had a few invaded by bloody DW and the striped seem to be Houdinis too. Ha found one in the new summersi viv a few days back,which is say 6 ' from the nearest culture. But i've only seeded with whites. As we make up new cultures now all get a bit of mesh in the inside. they eat the blue cloth vent:bash:,leatways I think that's what is happening.
> 
> Seeya
> 
> Stu


 yeah I didn't realise the size of the plant to be honest, get a greenhouse full of them mate lol 

yeah I know what you mean about the challenge take each frog as it comes some that maybe seem simple to one can prove a nightmare for others 

I was thinking of something else when I saw blue mate, im sure I have seen a small iso that is blue but bright blue!! not 100% sure on the colour of them not sure its natural

Porcellionides pruinosus which I also have called Cuban (no idea why) I keep this the same as my orange mate. I am doing a trial at the mo with pin holes in the tubs rather then the J cloth as you know they seem to eat it and it don't take that long for them to much when you have loads in there this don't give me the gradient as much as yours but as long as I spray at one end all seems good.... not seeing any breeding improvements which to be honest I didn't expect to

wow wish you had not shared that link mate :gasp: that collection is feeeeeking awesome wish we can get hold of this many diff types, I did have a guy that was going to try send me some diff types the dalmations and a few others but not sure whats going on there ill keep trying

I also have rogue DW all over the place gota love them.. one thing im interested in matey is at the moment I seed vivs with a bunch of all sorts (striped, orange, dw , CRP<your fast little buggars> our natives and these powder blues) now from what I have noticed our natives are the 1st to die out even with small frogs I put this down to the viv conditions 

as you know im moving things about so some frogs have been upgraded lol when emptying the viv I noticed nothing in there except DW and orange.... this is now my question / ponderings why these 2 is it because the fast purple and striped are 1st to be eaten by frogs because there more active? orange survive due to size? powder blue are also too large to eat and also breed faster then the orange so why do these die out.... all things im trying to wonder but I have seen this in 3 vivs and I seed everything the same 
going to try a few mixed cultures experiments thanks to ben & Darren who provided more iso to me as im too impatient to wait lol and I have a lot to seed at the mo


----------



## Ron Magpie

It was mentioned in our mutual book- and I have noticed in my vivs also- that the dwarf whites tend to dominate over time. This may be related to the fact that they are parthenogenic- each individual is female and constantly produces more- however slowly that happens, it *is *relentless.


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## Meefloaf

sad to say my attempts with woods haven't ended well, the DW's have done well. i've added some food recently into the others i got off stu last year, hoping they'll pop up again. it's my own fault as i let my guard down in my recent moving about and such, and well, pooper. 

I've kept the springs ticking over but not seen a massive boom, grabbed two big tubs (love home bargains) so going to try something on a bigger scale like you have going on Stu. 

as you know Stu, i'm between things atm with plenty going on, i'm hoping once i've got that bloody shed sorted and that extra space i can settle. i know its not ideal, but the light is appearing for me and i just need that one thing to fall into place and the rest should follow, then i can really concentrate and up my game


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## gwnm

so i have been reading this thread all day and only up to page 86 lol

i am thinking of getting some frogs but first its a gecko for me then it will be time to sort out a habitat for some frogs, not sure which yet but its something i will spend time on researching so i can give them the best set-up i can and as close to their natural habitat as possible.

i do have to say tho you are an inspiration, and i would never have thought about keeping frogs until i read this thread


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## grizzlymonkyboy

Ron Magpie said:


> It was mentioned in our mutual book- and I have noticed in my vivs also- that the dwarf whites tend to dominate over time. This may be related to the fact that they are parthenogenic- each individual is female and constantly produces more- however slowly that happens, it *is *relentless.


yes you are ocmpletely correct and what i was thinking but not getting across im my post is i want find a belnd of woodlice that will be able to reproduce and not dominate for examle remove the DW and find 3/4 iso,s that behave diffently that can co habit in the viv with no negative effect on each other. im not sure the removal of the DW is a big thing as i dont really think they offer anything extra that the others dont 

in my thinking in a few years i may replace the DW all toegther in the vivs, so far i have found iso's that breed faster, more active, and other iso's that are more prefered by the frogs......... bold statement but i think we have better options available


----------



## soundstounite

Gwyn just thanks really appreciate that another potential frogger pondering is about as good as it gets ,thank you so much.

guys i'm so short on time please forgive the iso convo is very interesting,want to be involved. Joe we'll get ya going again don't worry bro:Na_Na_Na_Na:

ron great shout I think its more though,I think the whites are predating the others when they are tiny,it's actually documented somewhere. Had a real interesting talk with Ed on DB about this,i'll see if I can dig it out for you both

dane I actually wouldn't try mixed with DW involved apparently dwarf striped are a dominant force too ,for me the way forward is culture shed loads of all a s they are so damn easy graft wise,small mesh inside the j cloth kiddo silicone in place

cheers all

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Gwyn just thanks really appreciate that another potential frogger pondering is about as good as it gets ,thank you so much.
> 
> guys i'm so short on time please forgive the iso convo is very interesting,want to be involved. Joe we'll get ya going again don't worry bro:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> ron great shout I think its more though,I think the whites are predating the others when they are tiny,it's actually documented somewhere. Had a real interesting talk with Ed on DB about this,i'll see if I can dig it out for you both
> 
> dane I actually wouldn't try mixed with DW involved apparently dwarf striped are a dominant force too ,for me the way forward is culture shed loads of all a s they are so damn easy graft wise,small mesh inside the j cloth kiddo silicone in place
> 
> cheers all
> 
> Stu


I believe I remember you mentioning predation before, Stu- at least in passing, but yes, the reference would be handy :2thumb: By the way, have you tried nylon net curtain? I often use it to separate the soil from the drainage in my tanks, so it was the obvious thing to use when I started up the DW culture from the starters you sent me- and they don't seem to have chewed it yet! I use it for my little colony of fast little wotsits, as well. Actually, this thread has just reminded me that I promised a mate some DWs today, so I'd better find a pot! :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I believe I remember you mentioning predation before, Stu- at least in passing, but yes, the reference would be handy :2thumb: By the way, have you tried nylon net curtain? I often use it to separate the soil from the drainage in my tanks, so it was the obvious thing to use when I started up the DW culture from the starters you sent me- and they don't seem to have chewed it yet! I use it for my little colony of fast little wotsits, as well. Actually, this thread has just reminded me that I promised a mate some DWs today, so I'd better find a pot! :lol2:


Buddy that's another good shout,mate Ron with you collection being so different to ours i don't know if you would use any stainless mesh as fine as we do. Ours is 0.4mm hole size,it's important because i know baby DW can fit through that gap,so'm curious as to if you can possibly put the two together,to measure hole size. It's such a small hole without going verier it's almost impossible for, ha ha, normal folks like us to measure.Hence putting both stainless and the jcloth on our vents. Oh the main reason for the J cloths at the time,was to prevent mites getting in,but ironically we have never had an issue with the white,I'd laya bet they get munched,where as although mites don't seem to have any adverse affect for us on iso,I do see them in other types of iso cutures..


I'll dig it out next couple of days buddy,we had little sleep here last night either the fox was back trying for our chucks or someone was about,rare here fairly isolated!! I'm about to have some musos round and am completely brain dead through lack of shut eye

bare with me mate

Stu


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## Ron Magpie

No, sorry mate, as you guessed, I don't really have a need for ss mesh that fine, so I can't compare. If it helps at all, it's fine, sheer, plain net curtain, without patterns- I generally get it for pennies as off-cuts from a local shop.


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## Jezza84

still at it then Stu your collection has grown some what since seeing you start this thread many moons ago. Congrats on all the breeding success. keeping well I hope? 

Jezz


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## soundstounite

Jezza84 said:


> still at it then Stu your collection has grown some what since seeing you start this thread many moons ago. Congrats on all the breeding success. keeping well I hope?
> 
> Jezz


Hey Jezz,how goes it mate. Too busy bro,but all good there and although I need a break all good here too:lol2:. I'm still plodding along mate,I don't want to ever be stretched as far as feeding goes,plus only have a few vivs left to filll so new species or morphs are slow being chosen now. But yeah still here and still loving da frroshe. We are just starting to ramp up a few frogs get them breeding again after the dry and the opposite with a couple. ha the madmess is still here too:2thumb:

things good with you kiddo?

Stu


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## gwnm

i was wondering if as you already give calcium to your springs and woods, if you have maybe tried phoenix worms or silkworms which are naturally high in calcium i'm not sure if they would be a suitable source for darts due to size but guess if you can culture them then you could feed smaller ones

its something i have been thinking about, rather than give supplements to find a varied food source that is viable and has all the nutritional requirements needed, i know its not as easy as that and it is something that needs more research


----------



## soundstounite

gwnm said:


> i was wondering if as you already give calcium to your springs and woods, if you have maybe tried phoenix worms or silkworms which are naturally high in calcium i'm not sure if they would be a suitable source for darts due to size but guess if you can culture them then you could feed smaller ones
> 
> its something i have been thinking about, rather than give supplements to find a varied food source that is viable and has all the nutritional requirements needed, i know its not as easy as that and it is something that needs more research


Yup,in both cultures I add Ca in the form of cuttlefish bone,broken bits,for woodlice,grated for springtails.

I yearn for similar to be honest,i think the feeders mentioned are too big for dartsBUT i DON'T KNOW,as I've never cultured either,i'm aware,but have never botheredto dig further,because of the size. I grab some wild grub alongside cultured,risks,accepted,but at this time I think we are along way off an unsupplimented diet. From my simple viewpoint,the variety of feeders darts could potentially access in the wild,compared to our pitiful lack variety in captivity,is a big nut to crack. But hey, we are constantly moving forwards,in many areas,I wouldn't rule anything out and am up for going out of the box.

I don't actually care for the reliance on vits,I grow our own organic grub don't swallow pills to make poor grub into a complete balanced diet,I'd like the same for our frogs and try to ring as many changes as possible for them,it's just a necessity to utilise these amazing products at this time. I say amazing because I think the work by folks like Allen Repashy is just that and their use has helped our frogs no end. But even if I knew and could culture every available native(here) feeder,I think we /I would still fall short of wild diet ,or even a vit enhanced diet.

It's not only the actual food of course,bits of substrate get injested with food,another potential source of vits and minerals,so replicating particular soils is of plausable merit to run alongside the actual food 

But sure go for it,every new feeder that can give us something different for the frogs to eat has to beneficial .Mind I ought to say seeing the devastation caused when a small feeder grows up and gets big, means I'd personally be looking at tiny things,that can be easily munched at adult by the frogs. I just don't think throwing the vits away is an option ,not yet anyway,in ten years who knows?

Stu


----------



## gwnm

soundstounite said:


> Yup,in both cultures I add Ca in the form of cuttlefish bone,broken bits,for woodlice,grated for springtails.
> 
> I yearn for similar to be honest,i think the feeders mentioned are too big for darts BUT i DON'T KNOW,as I've never cultured either, i'm aware,but have never bothered to dig further,because of the size. I grab some wild grub alongside cultured,risks,accepted,but at this time I think we are along way off an unsupplimented diet. From my simple viewpoint,the variety of feeders darts could potentially access in the wild,compared to our pitiful lack variety in captivity,is a big nut to crack. But hey, we are constantly moving forwards,in many areas,I wouldn't rule anything out and am up for going out of the box.
> 
> I don't actually care for the reliance on vits,I grow our own organic grub don't swallow pills to make poor grub into a complete balanced diet,I'd like the same for our frogs and try to ring as many changes as possible for them,it's just a necessity to utilise these amazing products at this time. I say amazing because I think the work by folks like Allen Repashy is just that and their use has helped our frogs no end. But even if I knew and could culture every available native(here) feeder,I think we /I would still fall short of wild diet ,or even a vit enhanced diet.
> 
> It's not only the actual food of course,bits of substrate get injested with food,another potential source of vits and minerals,so replicating particular soils is of plausable merit to run alongside the actual food
> 
> But sure go for it,every new feeder that can give us something different for the frogs to eat has to beneficial .Mind I ought to say seeing the devastation caused when a small feeder grows up and gets big, means I'd personally be looking at tiny things,that can be easily munched at adult by the frogs. I just don't think throwing the vits away is an option ,not yet anyway,in ten years who knows?
> 
> Stu


now thats what i like a proper reply 

yeah i hear ya if i had my way i'd be eating my own organic grub, but i have a postage stamp size of a garden thats only good for making mud pies or those damn mozzies lol

i think sometimes i just read too much and my brain gets swamped in useless stuff, i do think you are right, we do need to give them extra vits at the moment, who knows what future research might bring, we try to do the best we can, whilst still learning and guess that is what makes most things enjoyable

still lots to think about so thank you


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## Meefloaf

garaggaha phoenix worm, some term some american made for soldier fly larvae. they are awesome feeder on stats, however it basically means having a pile of rotting veg etc in a bin and some crazy capture/breeding system to harness them. i looked into them alot when i was looking at feeders for milk frogs here's their wikipedia Hermetia illucens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

by the look of it on there you could feed young larvae, but the flies might be a problem for darts


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## Ron Magpie

Meefloaf said:


> garaggaha phoenix worm, some term some american made for soldier fly larvae. they are awesome feeder on stats, however it basically means having a pile of rotting veg etc in a bin and some crazy capture/breeding system to harness them. i looked into them alot when i was looking at feeders for milk frogs here's their wikipedia Hermetia illucens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> by the look of it on there you could feed young larvae, but the flies might be a problem for darts


The flies are harmless in that they don't feed at all, but they'd deffo be too big for darts. I use them occasionally for my treefrogs- in fact I had this 'MI5-type' meeting in Liverpool Street Station once with a girl who had the calci-worms (another name for them) for her leopard gecko, but couldn't use the adult flies- my frogs were grateful for all the cloak and dagger stuff, though! :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> garaggaha phoenix worm, some term some american made for soldier fly larvae. they are awesome feeder on stats, however it basically means having a pile of rotting veg etc in a bin and some crazy capture/breeding system to harness them. i looked into them alot when i was looking at feeders for milk frogs here's their wikipedia Hermetia illucens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> by the look of it on there you could feed young larvae, but the flies might be a problem for darts


Gyn thanks you are welcome,there is always something new to ponder with this game,in so many areas,no harm in reading though or getting swamped by it all. I do that on a regular basis:lol2:. But I think darts are constantly progressing care wise,it's a really exciting time in my eyes. We only started 3 years back,just as a base example Repashy wasn't available back then, here. New products made by Allen are being used for darts,in various ways,not even thought about by Allen it seems,like mourning wood for example. Plus slightly left field of this topic we are seeing genuine projects raising revenue for conservation and bringing us new frogs to care for,in the process.

It's a cool time to keep darts,that's for sure and always room for new ideas too!!

Joe thanks for the link buddy,ya good mate? Do you think the very young larvea are viable,it seems from the write up they would only be useful when just hatched,if that is the case there might be more faffing about than it's worth?

Stu

.


----------



## Meefloaf

definitely more faffing than its worth, even for tree frogs and other animals i see soldier fly cultivating VERY time consuming, the benefits would be worth it however. but if you look at the kind of cultures they are in, it's like fat bin at an american hospital lol


----------



## Ron Magpie

Meefloaf said:


> definitely more faffing than its worth, even for tree frogs and other animals i see soldier fly cultivating VERY time consuming, the benefits would be worth it however. but if you look at the kind of cultures they are in, it's like fat bin at an american hospital lol


Yeah, I deffo wouldn't bother to try to culture them- just buy them in once in a while.


----------



## jaize

*Thanks!*

Stu,

I have just spent two days reading all of this amazing thread and I feel I have to thank you with this, my first post to the board.

I have been steadily setting up my own little piece of the jungle after returning home from a three year stint in Brasil and missing it a little. The viv was fine (former aquarist, there are parallels), the plants OK (mum is a botanist, it's genetic plus I am a keen gardener and orchid fan.) but the frogs... I wanted dart frogs but even after ploughing through the last couple of months mainly on the US fora it seemed that I was getting twisted and turned around as though I was herding cats. Everyone seemed to have their own opinion about everything and hardly any matched!

And then I found this. Brilliant. Your can do attitude and passion for the frogs has been and is inspirational. When it comes time for me to bring home my first frogs I want you to know you are partly responsible!

Thanks again.


----------



## soundstounite

jaize said:


> Stu,
> 
> I have just spent two days reading all of this amazing thread and I feel I have to thank you with this, my first post to the board.
> 
> I have been steadily setting up my own little piece of the jungle after returning home from a three year stint in Brasil and missing it a little. The viv was fine (former aquarist, there are parallels), the plants OK (mum is a botanist, it's genetic plus I am a keen gardener and orchid fan.) but the frogs... I wanted dart frogs but even after ploughing through the last couple of months mainly on the US fora it seemed that I was getting twisted and turned around as though I was herding cats. Everyone seemed to have their own opinion about everything and hardly any matched!
> 
> And then I found this. Brilliant. Your can do attitude and passion for the frogs has been and is inspirational. When it comes time for me to bring home my first frogs I want you to know you are partly responsible!
> 
> Thanks again.


Jaize,

what do I say,to a thanks like that? It's SO kind...just so kind. BLOODY HUMBLING THAT'S FOR SURE!!
I'm a nobody part of a team,she's amazing,i'm this mad guy that really believes I can do stuff with little,it will be harder this way,but I have this blindness to "I can't do something",no body instilled that in me,if they tried it sure as hell didn't sink in:blush:.

Anyway to the frogs,I feel more comfortable with them. I really appreciate how hard it is to seek out a method to grasp on to. Jaize I'm this real simple guy I see a plethera of methods and I see them partially suited to an individual set up. By that I mean the environment and exterior factors,of where one lives:I call it the variables,you've seen me refer over and over to this. Just water alone has so many connotations,let alone actual viv design beyond background methods, planting, types of plant used,methods for feeding,and on ad infinitum. I really do understand, how, when one delves into this,with a thinking brain it all gets befuddled: so many contradictions. Ha, I'm sitting on a major "one just can't do" at the moment,but hey, that's for another day.

Jaize stay with the simple things! You are right I think about the parallels with aquaculture. Plus a base familiarity with plants is a godsend:you are already ahead of me,the concept of epiphyte was bewildering,plus you have this massive apprecaition of what a rainforest is in reality,something I dream about knowing. I steal off my mate here Ron at every available chance,plus anything else I can find,but is NOT the same at all. 

Honestly, once you have the food culturing seriously wired ,your skill set already gives you a huge advantage over folks like me,you know and have an indepth appreciation of what you want to achieve,have seen it,plus mum!!. 

Before I flip this back over to you I'll say this,we have base methods for each group/species of frog, but they are basic,because for me each is individual each frog is an individual. They don't know about our rules,they are whom they are. To give an example two pumilio males in the same tank will fight to the death is oft heard,but it isn't always the case,often it's spot on,but I and friends of mine can give you an exact opposite,two males living together for ages without an issue. So read up on the contradictions,let them make your head spin,they are folks experiences. They arm you with facets to look for,but then tread your own path. I almost dig for contradictions,they give me half a chance at spotting what can or could possibly happen,before it does

Jaize tell us about what you were up to in Brazil,what do you do? I'd really love to know more and I'm sure others would too,here.

But most of all,just the best of luck with your frogs,these little beings are utterly enchanting....Ahh you'll see

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

psst psst, great feeling today stu, got home from work and fed the guys, one of the auratus came out and about for food. but the most magical for me is Tinc the leuc who whenever i enter the room he sits on a piece of cork and waits for me to say hello and feed him lol


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> psst psst, great feeling today stu, got home from work and fed the guys, one of the auratus came out and about for food. but the most magical for me is Tinc the leuc who whenever i enter the room he sits on a piece of cork and waits for me to say hello and feed him lol


I'm just pondering whether you are going to give that leuc an ID crisis:Na_Na_Na_Na: Ahh it's lovely when this stuff starts to kick in Joe,spent a while talking to mum summersi,bold as brass stomped(well ok tiny tiny things don't really do stomping) up to me "where's me dinner dad?" Then got the shovel out for the RFB kids springtail feed,this rocks at the mo.Tiny red faces materialize all over the viv tis a lovely thing mate. Oh Joe, thanks buddy, i love hearing how me kids are dong

But I'm sure another brom isn't holding water again,so i'm back to pondering pulling it out,rather sharpish although I'm sure there was a tad in there,but that one might just be ootw now. I'm pretty sure eggs got laid yesterday,haven't a clue where but caught some cracking courtship,so best crash in sooner rather than later,I suppose,rather than fight later on,what's the odds if I do I'll find something,and wish I left well alone. No easy choices here tads get so far down in an axil one simply can't see them,and signs like bubble are irrelevent when the water is disappearing so quick
belucky bro
Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

aaaaaaaaand to add to the news, the third super blue i hadnt seen since that first couple of days was sat right in the middle of the viv when i snuck in earlier too (two of them have lines running along the edge of top of the head, the third is the amazing patterned dude)

those lil red faces sounds awesome fella, good luck with the brom and tad pulling duderino

Joe


----------



## jaize

Stu,

I haven't put anything that I am fairly sure that lots of other people on here wouldn't agree with! You don't sit on your hands, you crack on with something, that is to be admired. Too many people sit about moaning and don't take life by the scruff of the neck and gift a good shake now and again! I get a bit hot under the collar about this...

As for your sensible words of advice, I hear you. Gather information, process it, question it, and then use it where seems best. I can do that! ;-)

The rest of your comments can best be answered by telling you a tiny bit of what happened...

So you ask what I do, I am an architect by trade but until these last couple of years back in Blighty I have been a fairly travel happy one (first trip to Brasil was 25 years ago) and have been steadily ticking off countries in my bid to visit them all before I die. Getting there slowly... :mf_dribble:

Whizz back to Feb 2009 and the crash pulled the rug from the entire construction industry (loads of you were probably affected by that nonsense) and I was suddenly out of a job. It hadn't happened before. It sucked. A lot.

Some background to our dashing hero's story...

Anyway when I was 18 I had finished a microbiology with zoology degree in double quick time (I was one of those annoying armholes that found education pretty easy) and had moved to Portugal where all was sunny. I lucked into running my own company that did OK. A few years later it was bought off of me by some friends who worked for me because I wanted to come home and study architecture (like frogs, it's addictive...)
Anyway, fast forward to 2009 and one of the guys that bought my company in Portugal was now a property developer/builder in Brasil (Rio) and asked if I would help out with a tricky project. Two weeks work turned into two months and then Sao Paulo council poached me to do some of the same for them. Another month and they threw me an idea...

you might need a map of Brasil for the next bits... 

Now we all know that Brasilia is the capital and that's where all the politicians and decisions are made, right?
Wrong. Just like the UK hot air gets bypassed by action on a regular basis.
They told me they had a pot of cash and needed some help masterplanning an idea they were working on. Basically the problem is that Brasil is really, really big. Nothing new there. But they thought that more people would come and visit if it was a bit nearer the rest of the world.

A sound idea.

So the plan was/still is to analyse tourist potential along the sugar coast focusing on Salvador up to Fortaleza organising what buildings and disused land as well as council land could be redeveloped to a careful overall plan. The funding that these produced (which with Olympics and World Cup just around the corner was more than 20p I can tell you!) was to be partially offset for social projects across the very impoverished and underdeveloped northern states. Mainly the states of Para, Maranhao, Piaui, Ceara and a tiny amount in Mato Grosso, Amapa and Amazonas.

All very simple, a spreadsheet could do most of this in theory but those states account for over half the area of Brasil, about 5 million square kilometres in all, or twenty times the size of the entire UK. It's a big project. :whistling2:

So every week was divided between architecture and project office work and visiting likely spots in remote areas that needed schools, clinics, sanitation, all sorts of stuff.
As a spin off of the fun side of the job I got to know various tribals anthropologists, biologists, zoologists etc. that were living, working, studying and loving the most awesome place on Earth, the Amazon rainforest.

And that is where the frogs come in...

Apologies for banging on but you did ask and I could talk about these adventures and my love of this place forever. Just let me know if ever you want to hear me drone on... :whistling2:


----------



## jaize

Stu,

I haven't put anything that I am fairly sure that lots of other people on here wouldn't agree with! You don't sit on your hands, you crack on with something, that is to be admired. Too many people sit about moaning and don't take life by the scruff of the neck and gift a good shake now and again! I get a bit hot under the collar about this...

As for your sensible words of advice, I hear you. Gather information, process it, question it, and then use it where seems best. I can do that! ;-)

The rest of your comments can best be answered by telling you a tiny bit of what happened...

So you ask what I do, I am an architect by trade but until these last couple of years back in Blighty I have been a fairly travel happy one (first trip to Brasil was 25 years ago) and have been steadily ticking off countries in my bid to visit them all before I die. Getting there slowly... :mf_dribble:

Whizz back to Feb 2009 and the crash pulled the rug from the entire construction industry (loads of you were probably affected by that nonsense) and I was suddenly out of a job. It hadn't happened before. It sucked. A lot.

Some background to our dashing hero's story...

Anyway when I was 18 I had finished a microbiology with zoology degree in double quick time (I was one of those annoying armholes that found education pretty easy) and had moved to Portugal where all was sunny. I lucked into running my own company that did OK. A few years later it was bought off of me by some friends who worked for me because I wanted to come home and study architecture (like frogs, it's addictive...)
Anyway, fast forward to 2009 and one of the guys that bought my company in Portugal was now a property developer/builder in Brasil (Rio) and asked if I would help out with a tricky project. Two weeks work turned into two months and then Sao Paulo council poached me to do some of the same for them. Another month and they threw me an idea...

you might need a map of Brasil for the next bits... 

Now we all know that Brasilia is the capital and that's where all the politicians and decisions are made, right?
Wrong. Just like the UK hot air gets bypassed by action on a regular basis.
They told me they had a pot of cash and needed some help masterplanning an idea they were working on. Basically the problem is that Brasil is really, really big. Nothing new there. But they thought that more people would come and visit if it was a bit nearer the rest of the world.

A sound idea.

So the plan was/still is to analyse tourist potential along the sugar coast focusing on Salvador up to Fortaleza organising what buildings and disused land as well as council land could be redeveloped to a careful overall plan. The funding that these produced (which with Olympics and World Cup just around the corner was more than 20p I can tell you!) was to be partially offset for social projects across the very impoverished and underdeveloped northern states. Mainly the states of Para, Maranhao, Piaui, Ceara and a tiny amount in Mato Grosso, Amapa and Amazonas.

All very simple, a spreadsheet could do most of this in theory but those states account for over half the area of Brasil, about 5 million square kilometres in all, or twenty times the size of the entire UK. It's a big project. :whistling2:

So every week was divided between architecture and project office work and visiting likely spots in remote areas that needed schools, clinics, sanitation, all sorts of stuff.
As a spin off of the fun side of the job I got to know various tribals anthropologists, biologists, zoologists etc. that were living, working, studying and loving the most awesome place on Earth, the Amazon rainforest.

And that is where the frogs come in...

Apologies for banging on but you did ask and I could talk about these adventures and my love of this place forever. Just let me know if ever you want to hear me drone on... :whistling2:


----------



## soundstounite

Bro sorry I'm so slow,too many balls in the air mate,but just lovely to hear about the SB's. Brom was blank by the way.

We are sitting on something special happening Joe,might win might loose but damn we are close,need a couple of weeks,to know whether the experience will yield a positive outcome, but it's already been worth the effort, always hope mate

froggin huh

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Seemed no real reason to not put summersi in viv so the deed is done,without issue,their neighbours are aware it seems,someone new has moved in next door.

Couple of snaps of some pum kids for eye candy



















A couple of years back mum blackbird nested right next to our front door,this year mum Robin nicked her nest...and did well









Finally for the mo.Massive caution and all the old field craft skills at use here:



















It's amazing how this wild population is expanding,we only saw two groups of 3 adults,but each had around 15 piglets

take care

Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> Seemed no real reason to not put summersi in viv so the deed is done,without issue,their neighbours are aware it seems,someone new has moved in next door.
> 
> Couple of snaps of some pum kids for eye candy
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> A couple of years back mum blackbird nested right next to our front door,this year mum Robin nicked her nest...and did well
> image
> 
> Finally for the mo.Massive caution and all the old field craft skills at use here:
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> It's amazing how this wild population is expanding,we only saw two groups of 3 adults,but each had around 15 piglets
> 
> take care
> 
> Stu


 wild pigs there amazing, do they live close fella?


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> wild pigs there amazing, do they live close fella?


forest of Dean bro...about an hour in the old jallopy. honestly Dane we are seeing a huge population increase,these are obviously descended from captive animals. wild boar have been extinct here for yonks. Somehow I think these guys might be here to stay now and i wonder how long it will be before they start to increase their range. It's truly incredible to see how they are making their prescence felt down there

best

Stu


----------



## phelsumaman

Stu, do you think this is a bad thing? From my understanding there used to be boar in the UK before they were hunted to extinction?


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> forest of Dean bro...about an hour in the old jallopy. honestly Dane we are seeing a huge population increase,these are obviously descended from captive animals. wild boar have been extinct here for yonks. Somehow I think these guys might be here to stay now and i wonder how long it will be before they start to increase their range. It's truly incredible to see how they are making their prescence felt down there
> 
> best
> 
> Stu


 yeah that's truly ace, im going to book a holiday here after seeing some pics a guy took on facebook. they have puffins and seals Farne Islands - Visitor information - National Trust

I love wild stuff in uk its amazing and saves taking kids to zoos


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> forest of Dean bro...about an hour in the old jallopy. honestly Dane we are seeing a huge population increase,these are obviously descended from captive animals. wild boar have been extinct here for yonks. Somehow I think these guys might be here to stay now and i wonder how long it will be before they start to increase their range. It's truly incredible to see how they are making their prescence felt down there
> 
> best
> 
> Stu


They are actually bred on farms in this country for 'gourmet' restaurants- but some inevitably escape and breed. I'm rather in favor of them! Supposedly there are some here in Kent, but I have no clue as to the location.


----------



## soundstounite

phelsumaman said:


> Stu, do you think this is a bad thing? From my understanding there used to be boar in the UK before they were hunted to extinction?


It's incredibly difficult to assimilate Ben,do I love seeing a native species,reinstated,sure,what a joy this was,Although I really cant't stress how careful I was,plus I have other experiences to draw on..But they have no natural predators here,we've clobbered them too. Ben we saw two groups,there are MANY MANY more. Two groups six adults,with 30 plus kids!!!

I would guess a small % would survive,to maturity elsewhere,but here,mortality will be low. Then one factors in what Shaz and I have seen,effects wise. The Dean is a big ol' wood mate,but it's getting ploughed. So for me with the right numbers,it's all how it should be,a natural part of our ecosystem,but we don't have that natural ecosystem,we have removed wolves and got knows what else at the top of the food chain. So man will have to manage this,that is already happening. But we are so good at things like this aren't we, he said with some degree of sarcasm! That population, as a non local that tries to wonder around this ancient woodland at every chance we get, is increasing exponentially. It's in total overdrive.

Ben if a common or garden pig is moved here deffra have to know,yeah swine flu blue ear(i think,might be blue tongue),our domestic piggy is a direct descendent from WB. So there are for starters agricultural implications. Then one has environmental implications. Then one sees incidents where joe public thinks its cool to get within yards of a mum and kids, litterally between them ,we watched human kids last year in this position,put there by their parents with some horror:bash:Nowt happened ,but i'd lay a bet it will. Folks here don't have the respect ingrained that they need. for an animal like this,rapidly returning to wild status.

Would i like them to stay,hell yeah!! Was being able to watch them a sheer joy,for me,naturally it was. An astounding experience. But every sense was focused wind direction,the whole shebang at play and total respect for who was in front of me.

Many facets to this Ben,I don't see easy answers in our conjested little island,by the same token,I think these guys are here to stay this time.What the ramifications might be this laymen doesn't know.Pigs in woodland are as natural as pigs in sh*t, meant to be here, part of how our woodland developed,still utilized by conservationists. 

It's the complexity of numbers:stable populations /acre of wood and the interaction with humans, that is open to debate. This has to be managed like deer in blighty,it is how it is

best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> yeah that's truly ace, im going to book a holiday here after seeing some pics a guy took on facebook. they have puffins and seals Farne Islands - Visitor information - National Trust
> 
> I love wild stuff in uk its amazing and saves taking kids to zoos


Ahh mate Eider...woowoo(it's the male'scall:blush: females do opobopob).Shaz and I have have helped with breeding these,mate the kids are like tiny bulldogs the mums do creche it's wonderful to see. Sometimes I forget just how lucky we have been. Ok I've not seen it in the wild,but I've held them as tiny things,big eggs man:gasp:

seeya
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

As usual, Stu, you've thought through the implications, at the same time as taking a pure delight in the spectacle! :2thumb:

Yes, of course the population will have to be controlled- just like deer, there are none of their natural predators left- deer culling always causes an uproar, but it's necessary for the health of the population, and the wider environment. The fact that they are back, though is a thrill for me- much like the reintroduction of beavers is, or the recovery of otters. I'm not a purist, though, I also get a buzz out of seeing ring-knecked parakeets wild, or edible frogs (shock, horror! :gasp! The truth is, though that through a combination of the ice ages and man's activity, the British Isles are actually rather poor (in terms of number of species) in both fauna and flora, compared to mainland Europe- I actually rather like the increased diversity. Inevitably that has an effect on the ecosystem as a whole, but heretic me doesn't always think that's a bad thing. *Prepares to duck for cover* :lol2:


----------



## Meefloaf

bears and wolves


----------



## PigeonYouDead

Meefloaf said:


> bears and wolves


I agree. Shame we can't reintroduce wolves at the least. Would probably take some of the dunces out of the gene pool lol. ** bring back natural selection **.:lol2:


----------



## Meefloaf

didnt know where else to put these, a lil update on me tank and some funny pics i grabbed today for you stu

caught this leuc twice like this in recent weeks sitting in the brom, theres a bit of water in there like



















this is one of the kids i got off J










and here's the leuc viv as it's grown in fella, although that silver bergonia is huge now, bursts out at me when i open the doors lol


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> As usual, Stu, you've thought through the implications, at the same time as taking a pure delight in the spectacle! :2thumb:
> 
> Yes, of course the population will have to be controlled- just like deer, there are none of their natural predators left- deer culling always causes an uproar, but it's necessary for the health of the population, and the wider environment. The fact that they are back, though is a thrill for me- much like the reintroduction of beavers is, or the recovery of otters. I'm not a purist, though, I also get a buzz out of seeing ring-knecked parakeets wild, or edible frogs (shock, horror! :gasp! The truth is, though that through a combination of the ice ages and man's activity, the British Isles are actually rather poor (in terms of number of species) in both fauna and flora, compared to mainland Europe- I actually rather like the increased diversity. Inevitably that has an effect on the ecosystem as a whole, but heretic me doesn't always think that's a bad thing. *Prepares to duck for cover* :lol2:


 Hmmm grey squirrels,mink and signals,bugger them:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2ok not really a rock mate,just a chance to make ya smile)

I can't believe you guys,Bears and Wolves,no one is hoping for a Sabre tooth,hey ho,what can ya do eh?:gasp and another:blush

Ron,although you might not see WB if they are there in kent you'll know when you walk that wood,their activities are not exactly hidden. 

Ecosystems are always evolving mate,climates go up and down,the whole shebang is always a work in progress,but as the dominant force we have to make choices here now and manage those

Proper special though,only out classed by the beast of Exmoor,European lynx on good authority,at a few yards,mind that one did turn me a bit pale(wimp). But that was just a remnant of the 1981 wildlife and countryside Act I guess.I suppose she/he never found a mate,or we would know by now, it was yonks back.
Cool though.

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

PigeonYouDead said:


> I agree. Shame we can't reintroduce wolves at the least. Would probably take some of the dunces out of the gene pool lol. ** bring back natural selection **.:lol2:


Tis a lot of wolves mate:whistling2:

Stu


----------



## PigeonYouDead

soundstounite said:


> Tis a lot of wolves mate:whistling2:
> 
> Stu


:lol2::lol2::lol2:

Reminds me of when I found a california king snake at my local archery club.

Was like.. er... that should not be here. Some noob had dumped it. When I asked someone to get me a box for it they replied saying "why.. it's been here at least a few weeks, it's doing fine!" *sigh*


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> didnt know where else to put these, a lil update on me tank and some funny pics i grabbed today for you stu
> 
> caught this leuc twice like this in recent weeks sitting in the brom, theres a bit of water in there like
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> this is one of the kids i got off J
> 
> image
> 
> and here's the leuc viv as it's grown in fella, although that silver bergonia is huge now, bursts out at me when i open the doors lol
> 
> image


First leuc are they calling yet Joe? Kinda wondering if the little guy is staking a claim. Best perch in da house

Lovely mate,thanks for taking the time

don't these plants grow buddy ,it's nuts viv is a credit mate,nowt to dwell on,just cool:notworthy:

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

soundstounite said:


> I can't believe you guys,Bears and Wolves


What's wrong with Bears and Wolves? :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Not too many Wolves around anymore but plenty of Bears due North! Lots of foxes around here still though. :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

PigeonYouDead said:


> :lol2::lol2::lol2:
> 
> Reminds me of when I found a california king snake at my local archery club.
> 
> Was like.. er... that should not be here. Some noob had dumped it. When I asked someone to get me a box for it they replied saying "why.. it's been here at least a few weeks, it's doing fine!" *sigh*


Linds,a mate here lost a corn snake 10 months back(I think),it's been knocking about ALL winter(ok a very mild one),it's just turned up,just fine a few houses down from where he lives

nuts huh
but lovely all the same he was gutted,not now: victory: Magical flukes do happen in the real world

bring it on

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

frogfreak said:


> What's wrong with Bears and Wolves? :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> Not too many Wolves around anymore but plenty of Bears due North! Lots of foxes around here still though. :2thumb:


Yes, but in your neighborhood people still wear racoon hats and say 'Eh' a lot... :whistling2:

(*Joking*, as usual!!) Actually, foxes here have adapted massively to more urban environments- I see more in town than I do in the country. I suspect bears and wolves might find it slightly harder to blend in, though.


----------



## Meefloaf

frogfreak said:


> What's wrong with Bears and Wolves? :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> Not too many Wolves around anymore but plenty of Bears* due North!* Lots of foxes around here still though. :2thumb:


not south ?>











:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


----------



## Meefloaf

No calling yet Stu, those guys cb2012, 3 i got from J will be a yr old around back end of october


----------



## frogfreak

Ron Magpie said:


> Yes, but in your neighborhood people still wear racoon hats and say 'Eh' a lot... :whistling2:


:lol2: :Na_Na_Na_Na:



Ron Magpie said:


> I suspect bears and wolves might find it slightly harder to blend in, though.


Maybe not, Ron. :flrt:
Northern Ontario - Reintroduce black bears to Southern Ontario


----------



## s6t6nic6l

apologies if this has already been touched upon here but with all these frogs and vivs you exhibit in this room, do you use labels/info cards or such like for reference and detailing about, on an enclosure for your guests to read and be in the know?
I made up some plaques simply by using MS paint just for that reason myself for a viv :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> What's wrong with Bears and Wolves? :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> Not too many Wolves around anymore but plenty of Bears due North! Lots of foxes around here still though. :2thumb:


:lol2:Nothing bro.

Glenn tis just finding a space for everything on this tiny island

ya good mate(and the others)?

Stu


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## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> apologies if this has already been touched upon here but with all these frogs and vivs you exhibit in this room, do you use labels/info cards or such like for reference and detailing about, on an enclosure for your guests to read and be in the know?
> I made up some plaques simply by using MS paint just for that reason myself for a viv :2thumb:


No not at this time Nic,visitors just get talked to death:blush:

In all seriousness Nic,it's not something I have ever really mused on,it's been pretty balls to the wall here for a good while now,so these little details worthy of appraisal are getting missed,if I'm honest

it's a cool idea though:2thumb:

lovely to hear from ya mate

Stu


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## soundstounite

Sometimes in life things just take a long time,a long time!! but sometimes the wait and what follows is just oh so worth it. These frogs and their story is a long time coming I could say we go back to dec 2012 when we got them,but really it goes way back,to our first visits to dart frog where we actually saw some large oophaga in the flesh and also saw some of this particular morph. I wanted straight off the back,but hell it took yonks just to get leucs,these were going to be a real wait. The more we learnt the more we wanted,but also realised just how rare how expensive how sought after. If we were to keep,then we had to get a sound base. then one needs a legit line,frogs don't get exported from Colombia,haven't been for yonks,so I trusted source had to be found,but i'm already miles ahead of my self. 

So even while building racks thoughts were where could we keep them,later but way too early we built a viv. No chance of keeping,but ya gotta dream right. So that viv,which by an unbelievable fluke,it appears we got spot on,just how ,I still scratch my head,but we got the rocky background nailed places for the frogs to lay(which they use:gasp pondered depo sites for tads,built it sat back and carried on with our vertical learning curve,which is still happening.I think the viv sat empty for 18 months. Just before frogs I had the bright idea of a prime brom up front a big water holding type and a branch to support it,which also added a direct route for frogs traveling the story's upwards

Here's a pic from way back:



Look at the RHS,those film cans set into the fake tree where my egg laying sites for one day,I figured the frogs would feel safe with that vertical surface,at the same time we can see exactly what might happen if used


Graham and Marcus,the guys at dendroworks have been a rock to us,always there with help and advice almost from the off. Graham is an amphibian consultant,for our natives,a wonderful knowledge of our habitat and breeds an old line of redheads. So after saving for yonks we asked about the chance of keeping some ,he said yes,still in the back of my mind were we ready.

Dec 2012 we made the trip up to Grahams had a great chat a lot of laughs and came back with our precious new froggy mates. Man that journey was a complete mare,took hours both ways and haunts me still,the carnage of a multi car pile the 'cause plus freezing conditions as we made our way back.

Fast forward a couple more months frogs ready to go in viv. I was dreading this,these guys have a rep for not liking being moved,from my reading ,but we took the plunge and into the viv they went. A few days later one had a massive fit and died right in front of Shaz,we we re both heart broken. Now we really have no idea of cause but it might just have been the huge number of iso in that viv and these kids hadn't seen that many,the little guy was pretty fat,but who knows. Man this was a hard time early last year,losing me Dad within days then my beloved tank,very much head down dodge the artics falling around and try and keep ya bloody head up. But the other two frogs were fine and started growing. Graham just brushed it aside,I'll replace it.But all those thoughts of too soon were hammering me. Graham did replace the frog we bought another as the two were now so much bigger and I didn't want to keep one on its own for months,just thanks to Graham and Marcus for the kindness.

Here they are back then:

This is JT it's written on the other side



and drake


So those two little guys grew up without incident really,until one day in the early summer last year Drake started calling,we could only hope now that JT might just be a lass,around june july last year the calling was really kicking in and sure enough we had courtship,how about this a tiny histo tad just starting to develop


Jt,or Drake made a right pigs ear of looking after the eggs,all my egg handling skills came into play as at least twice I had to put all the eggs back in situ as they had dragged them always. All those skills learnt playing with other eggs came into being and much to my complete disbelief,one little tad hatched


I was doing in the room that day and kept taking peaks to see if JT would carry,I went out for 1/2 an hour and tad was gone,not on her back either searched the floor ,nothing. Hey ho it's a start I told myself,didn't think they would do anyway.

A few weeks later I'm bumbling about as usual,look into the brom at the front and stop movement,damn you couldn't make it up,there right at the front for me to watch was the tad,just as planned,nuts!!



So on it went,up and down like a bloody yo yo this story. little guy grew up and morphed out here he is,just leaving the water.

Jt:

has to be the clumsiest mum out there,look she was learning and everything fell into place,so we were able to watch all stages,her next triumph:bash: was to knock the little guy off the brom leaf,I was there and watched in horror as the little fella fell over a footsmacked off the front bit of wood hit the front glass of the ditch and lay still on his back.
By the time I'd shot down washed hands and prepared to pull him,he was the right way up,popped him in a film can and ,unbelieably he was ok.

So on we go Jt lays often two clutches,she seems to be able to pre-empt tads hatching,so on the day tads morph,she is ready to carry...how?She's done this repeatedly. 

Off we go again,again new tads up front,damn these guys lay lots of feeder eggs


----------



## soundstounite

So I've got this cracking tad growing well right under my nose,but 'erm the leaf of the axil has started to brown,ahh all will be well I told myself,WRONG!! A few days later i'm filling up the brom,bosh leaf fails dumping tad on the floor. So we took the choice of popping him back in to a fim can in the same place,but JT ignores him,ok nowt to loose we'll feed him.no chance we'll win,but some chance huh...bring it on,was the attitude,always hope while the little guy is alive right!!

Here he is closing on morphout:










The complete shock of good front legs









and yup all is well he/she's still here and is stunning










Meanwhile Jt's doing her thing and feeding like a lass possesed,more stunning kids emerge and I can see a perfect storm of event coming up. She lays too many eggs she is young and priceless too me,so when the next batch of eggs hatch I pull some. I have to keep them going for a few weeks thoug,but she won't be able to do herself in feeding too many kids.

the event i'm waiting on are the basti tads morphing, they do and I swap two tads that started feeding on other eggs. One is very very strong,so the weaker goes to a new mum first,and is fed,off we go,the second strong one is now already falling behind but duley goes to his new mum and again is fed, weeks/months later the weaker tad looks good and again comes ootw,the strong little guy looks lean,but has front legs,I wonder? fed him,5 eggs,gone next day weight looks right now Meet "Moon"










As above I remember Moon now as this sseriously strong tiny thing,tearing at eggs given to get food,but the next few days would be touch and go,I remember clearly saying to Shaz he has to feed tomorrow or its finished,ahh,but he did(rock'n'roll:no1 Moon has grown quicker and bigger than any other kid we have reared,today of all days,he called,just quite while I was bunging a few spring in,but what an amazing little frog,he's a beast now











JT lays again,despite my concerns for her 17 eggs,so I pull a whole clutch,but this time we have no help,so we'll try the last step on our own,this will almost certainly fail,rearing oophaga by hand is hard,I've already failed. 

Jt pulls some kids out for us and that's it she is going to stop like it or not,she's done enough,the minute the kids are with me,I cut food and cut misting,Drake slows on the calling but she still lays a small batch of eggs,I pull them,a week or two later again,...here I am throwing away large oophaga eggs,it's nuts,but I have some kids and they are stunning,I want my lass to rest and thank god she does. I mean look at them,how could anyone,a sad old care worker (and his sick lass) earning close to min wage get here and not be stoked beyond comprehension. I really just sit there and go WTF:gasp:
Viv built of rubbish plants cajoled from little,most food from just one culture bought.......... just how ?



















Motto here!! don't let anyone tell you you can't do something,tis all just how long it will take,it don't help when time is running out 'cause I'm 50,by the same token, we are so close to there being more,it's above ^^^ and happening as I write. All this has taught me much,never give up even when hope is lost,still keep your head down

There ya have it guys "the special frogs to many" same as the luecs in our eyes, a joy,possibly easier than doing a tinc well who knows. But damn I wish I could show you the tad dance I've seen and now am getting close to calling up

bring it the hell on

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

BOSH, been waiting for this write up fella, LOVE these frogs and they are my own personal holygrail for the time being, albeit a ways in the future. as always mate, you and shaz have worked your nuts off and pulled it off, virtual pats on the backs going out to the both of you, well done guys x


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## soundstounite

Finally,those pulled eggs,I wasn't going to continue as my PC is on crashing .but those little fellas,well I lost most early,they never fed,but 3 did,they are over what should have been their morphout by their mum feeding by ages,but as above always hope huh. 

what has really got me is so much is written about these frogs having something extra,ya know slightly higher intelligence than other dartfrogs,possibly associated with parental care,but these guys really know me,They really do,the other tads do too,but that parental care leans this old fool to there being more for them to associate with the guy feeding them,their mum(me :blush

See Robbster.com for a basic method:look for alternatives for obligates at the top


Man its a fight with the water quality and I really had lost hope,but I refer to myself as stubborn with good reason,dug in and kept trying,this is today,I oft say I'm busy,this is time consuming,but hey I've learnt things that my research never found,my hope is restored if they keep going another couple of weeks legs look ok,to my humble eyes,as bless the 3 of them,we've come so far. They should be here like this sibling










but they are here today




























A few more weeks will see us through morphout,but it could all still go pear shaped,it's mad as hell large oophaga reared by hand,never seen mum since the day they were laid,done primarily 'cause a guy was worrying on his mum froggy:blush:. 

How cool would it be to get these three to adult hood now after the months spent trying with little hope,then get to see if they just breed like others do

Ahh ya gotta dream:whistling2:

Stu


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## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> BOSH, been waiting for this write up fella, LOVE these frogs and they are my own personal holygrail for the time being, albeit a ways in the future. as always mate, you and shaz have worked your nuts off and pulled it off, virtual pats on the backs going out to the both of you, well done guys x


:notworthy: when you feel you are ready,and I know you'll take your time,you will keep these Joe stripes are earn't.

I know mate was meant to be back in feb part of the 3 year round up:blush: It's been some of the most gut wrenching heartbreaking,making one question one'self lowest points for us,to the exact opposite monster highs. Bloody rollacoster mate,I just wish you could pop by and see these 3 tads mate,the last week has been fantastic how they react to us.so special so few will ever see that,I'v been so damn lucky bro 
best

Stu


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## ticmike

This would of made making your racking a whole lot easier i'd imagine?

Easyfix Aluminium Tube Mount : AluminiumWarehouse

Going to order soon and hopefully make something that looks at least half as good as yours!!


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## Ron Magpie

*"So even while building racks thoughts were where could we keep them,later but way too early we built a viv. No chance of keeping,but ya gotta dream right. So that viv,which by an unbelievable fluke,it appears we got spot on,just how ,I still scratch my head,but we got the rocky background nailed places for the frogs to lay(which they use:gasp pondered depo sites for tads,built it sat back and carried on with our vertical learning curve,which is still happening.I think the viv sat empty for 18 months. Just before frogs I had the bright idea of a prime brom up front a big water holding type and a branch to support it,which also added a direct route for frogs traveling the story's upwards"
*
Oh, Stu, you do make me laugh, mate! I totally take your point about learning as you go on, but you already had animal-keeping (includiing amphibian-keeping) pretty much down pat. I always also take your point that 'doing is learning'- but your success is totally down to the work that you and Shaz put in, researching and using your gut instincts, plus the knowledge you already had, to get it right first time.


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## s6t6nic6l

soundstounite said:


> No not at this time Nic,visitors just get talked to death:blush:
> 
> In all seriousness Nic,it's not something I have ever really mused on,it's been pretty balls to the wall here for a good while now,so these little details worthy of appraisal are getting missed,if I'm honest
> 
> it's a cool idea though:2thumb:
> 
> lovely to hear from ya mate
> 
> Stu


I brought this topic up on *DB,* (parts & construction), (*Animal information label),* recently coz it was summat I thought would be nice for my viv. in this thread one poster (dev30ils) decided to design some and they are brilliant: victory:
he can produce any size and wording you like at a small premium plus shipping to here :devil:
plus I know there are other great info labels out there too

if you get a mo :yeahright:, have a quick look see, you may be kinda impressed and think...................


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## Meefloaf

i've searched all over for them Nic, only ever really seen them in the states or Josh's mantella tanks. be a nice little touch i think


{EDIT} just seen the thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/179794-animal-information-label.html and got to say i do like your MS Paint job


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## s6t6nic6l

Meefloaf said:


> i've searched all over for them Nic, only ever really seen them in the states or Josh's mantella tanks. be a nice little touch i think
> 
> 
> {EDIT} just seen the thread Animal information label - Dendroboard and got to say i do like your MS Paint job


same here and why I asked. as stated I know some have them and done professionally to make a well presented enclosure/area etc.

not bad I suppose for summat thrown together with paint and thanks for your approval.

p.s. I know after a word with josh that he will make these up for you, given the right criteria. (you are on a certain forum) : victory:


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## soundstounite

s6t6nic6l said:


> I brought this topic up on *DB,* (parts & construction), (*Animal information label),* recently coz it was summat I thought would be nice for my viv. in this thread one poster (dev30ils) decided to design some and they are brilliant: victory:
> he can produce any size and wording you like at a small premium plus shipping to here :devil:
> plus I know there are other great info labels out there too
> 
> if you get a mo :yeahright:, have a quick look see, you may be kinda impressed and think...................


Actually mate,I clocked it sometime yesterday while supping a cup'o' char,but I think yours are damn cool matee...damn cool I def wouldn't let it put you off going a head and seeing if folks want yours...on any level,at the mo bro I'm strapped and don't bloody know what day it is,but I really think you should show the guys here what you've done,You can do that here if wanted mate,I have no probs with that:2thumb:

best 

Stu


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## s6t6nic6l

soundstounite said:


> Actually mate,I clocked it sometime yesterday while supping a cup'o' char,but I think yours are damn cool matee...damn cool I def wouldn't let it put you off going a head and seeing if folks want yours...on any level,at the mo bro I'm strapped and don't bloody know what day it is,but I really think you should show the guys here what you've done,You can do that here if wanted mate,I have no probs with that:2thumb:
> 
> best
> 
> Stu


pretty good though hey what he's done/doing for others to have. 
quite surprised really that this is not the norm for folks to show what they have in the abodes for when they are not on show, say, to at least give some info for when visitors are peering.
I surely won't need to make these up for anybody else seeing as the plaques I done are very simple to do with MS paint :2thumb:
Mr. loaf has kindly provided the link so they don't need showing here too.

keep up the good work.


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## Ron Magpie

s6t6nic6l said:


> pretty good though hey what he's done/doing for others to have.
> quite surprised really that this is not the norm for folks to show what they have in the abodes for when they are not on show, say, to at least give some info for when visitors are peering.
> I surely won't need to make these up for anybody else seeing as the plaques I done are very simple to do with MS paint :2thumb:
> Mr. loaf has kindly provided the link so they don't need showing here too.
> 
> keep up the good work.


It's definitely a great idea for someone with lots of tanks. I pretty much know what are in all mine but for large-scale breeders etc it would be usefull


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## soundstounite

nic's taken me back to when I was a kid hanging out at Paignton zoo Ron,his post hit's the nail for that kid,now I know what I'm looking for!!!!!!

Oh for you guys,'cause I know you have never seen this and I'm on a day by day willing it to live programme. I have even more hope today. It may well be dashed tomorrow,we haven't seen him feed yet ,but all else is there,one hand reared red head kid that is stalking,but the hit... the strike is missing,but the tummy says something different










just how huh??????????????????????????????????????????????????

bring it on

Stu


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## gwnm

absolutely stunning :flrt:


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## soundstounite

gwnm said:


> absolutely stunning :flrt:


A tiny miracle Gwyn and still here,plus the next little fella,who bless him straight ootw this morning let me get this. It's remarkable because they normally doge straight back to water at the drop of a hat,but I'm his mum so just the quiet stockmans banter was enough to keep him in place,he ducked for a while 'cause I made a hash of taking the lid off,but then sat up like a charm for this










two out 3rd with front legs now,so this isn't a complete fluke quite yet, might still end in many tears ,but still hope huh

Oh guys clock this bloody close now on the azzie kids morphing,man how special is this for us,:no1: He he common stuff on one hand silly madness impossible on the other and equal joy here,man we just cannot wait for these guys now,last pic is mum, Bonnie Blue Butler Shaz calls her fav lass:whistling2: we'll just call her Bonnie eh? 




























We set a few and pulled the plug I think they have pretty much stopped now ,for me personally the bar is now set on the rearing. 

The attachi holdbacks are close to the two year mark now,I'm in the ball park,I would say just fell short,but it's not much on WC. Tis a big thing nailing it down for two years,on a weekly basis,but fundementally for a beginner I'm pleased with where we have got them. sure as hell not stunted .just want to be better. Sorry no pics,they'll come sometime

bring it on

Stu


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## Meefloaf

good luck with the azzies and redheads Stu ! and especially those azzies, can't imagine how giddy shaz is


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## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> good luck with the azzies and redheads Stu ! and especially those azzies, can't imagine how giddy shaz is


ups and downs bro but all this is bonkersly wonderful.

thanks mate,head down go for it huh:Na_Na_Na_Na:

belucky kiddo

Stu


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## FrogNick

soundstounite said:


> nic's taken me back to when I was a kid hanging out at Paignton zoo Ron,his post hit's the nail for that kid,now I know what I'm looking for!!!!!!
> 
> Oh for you guys,'cause I know you have never seen this and I'm on a day by day willing it to live programme. I have even more hope today. It may well be dashed tomorrow,we haven't seen him feed yet ,but all else is there,one hand reared red head kid that is stalking,but the hit... the strike is missing,but the tummy says something different
> 
> image
> 
> just how huh??????????????????????????????????????????????????
> 
> bring it on
> 
> Stu


Stu can you elaborate on the hand rearing or did i miss a post.

thanks

Nick


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## Ron Magpie

Stu, random thought here; I decided to try eggshell with my woods- I generally put eggshells into the compost bin, and I have noticed that European woodlice seem to be especially plentiful around the pieces, so I've crumpled some dried eggshell into my cultures. I occures to me that eggshell, which is about 95% calcium mixed with proteins, might be a really good way to get calcium into the woods. I'll let you know if I see any change or progress.


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## soundstounite

FrogNick said:


> Stu can you elaborate on the hand rearing or did i miss a post.
> 
> thanks
> 
> Nick


Hey Nicky,

mate not really much to tell,I basically used Rob Melencom's method: see alternatives for obligates Robbster.com. Our female laid two clutches ...she oft does so I pulled 6 eggs I think(long day bro) and hatched them out of viv,like any other frog then did all the same things as with other tads just fed other frog eggs rather than the normal tad diet. So basically I haven't a bloody clue whether I could repeat it,but if I'm recollecting correct then a 50% on something that is meant to be pretty much impossible is ok, I'll take that!!

Nick, we are told so many things in the dart world,so many things that can't be done I could list 'em but I won't.Our hobby is moving forwards all the time better: vits better lighting better this better that ,I really don't have an answer as to why this is seemingly coming out well,it could all go wrong tomorrow,but my hopes are high now.They increase each day. 

take care mate

Stu


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## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Stu, random thought here; I decided to try eggshell with my woods- I generally put eggshells into the compost bin, and I have noticed that European woodlice seem to be especially plentiful around the pieces, so I've crumpled some dried eggshell into my cultures. I occures to me that eggshell, which is about 95% calcium mixed with proteins, might be a really good way to get calcium into the woods. I'll let you know if I see any change or progress.


Yup it should work Ron ,'erm I did it for a good while,I found the cuttle easier to work with I can grate it for the vast amount of springs I culture and chuck all the left over bits to the iso. Ron i always had my chucks,so knew what they had been fed,pretty much completely organic.It's really difficult to say organic in our day and age!! Damned if I can remember but think I nuked ,sour lemons(selmonella) an' all that. But it will work :2thumb: Woodlice are amazing there must be some power to chomp wood all be it fairly slow,I love the shapes they leave in part rotted,they can cope with eggs shell

best

Stu


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## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Yup it should work Ron ,'erm I did it for a good while,I found the cuttle easier to work with I can grate it for the vast amount of springs I culture and chuck all the left over bits to the iso. Ron i always had my chucks,so knew what they had been fed,pretty much completely organic.It's really difficult to say organic in our day and age!! Damned if I can remember but think I nuked ,sour lemons(selmonella) an' all that. But it will work :2thumb: Woodlice are amazing there must be some power to chomp wood all be it fairly slow,I love the shapes they leave in part rotted,they can cope with eggs shell
> 
> best
> 
> Stu


Makes sense- my reasoning is that since the calcium part is bound together with proteins, they may eat shell more readily, and in smaller, easier to assimulate fragments, than cuttle fish. One thing I have noticed with composted shell is that while fragments are easy to see in the sieved compost when it's spread, they disappear very quickly once spread or mixed into the soil.


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## soundstounite

Cant't argue with that Ron:2thumb: I suspect they might like the left over albumin, as well,it's very difficult to see what they go for at first. Mate did you see that picture I posted ages back. I have a lot of woodlice on the go as you know,so occassionally they have munched the cuttle, and there is a gap before I replace. I was doing the rounds making sure all the cultures had their Ca. Within minutes of adding bosh one couldn't see culttle,they were swarming all over it,by the time I got the shutter down for the pic many had moved off.But that pic really opened my eyes( and a good few others I might add) as to how much they want this stuff and how easily,it is to miss this.I did for a while...doh:bash:. It should have been be blindingly obvious,I know what their exoskeleton is made of... Tis all in the little things mate:2thumb: 

Stu


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## ticmike

Well ive just ordered all my things for my racking, hope to god ive got my sums right, maths was never my strong point and to make it even scarier, they are doing all my cuts, so if im wrong im :censor: lol

Wish me luck!!!

PS. Stu this is all your fault, if id not bought the Mysties off you id have never seen this amazing racking and would not have spent £££ on racking lol (glad i did though)


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## Meefloaf

ticmike, if you got the mysties im thinking you did, you've got a beautiful set of frogs, if i'd had the viv ready when i went to stu's i'd have walked with them then aha, the lil fella is soooo amazing he was strutting round like a peacock and saying hello to me, congrats on the frogs dude !


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## ticmike

I certainly have mate, I can't wait to pick them up but with work and viv not totally ready yet it's been a wait, feels like forever, but I can't wait to pick them up! 
Hugely excited!


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## soundstounite

Man all I wanted to do was try show one way of doing things where I mess up,cheep ways to get more folks into this mad froggy world and I've ended up turning folks into mad ali crazy guys with that slightly distracted look in their eye,cause they can't focus on anything but a purdy frog:blush:

Mike all is well,they deposited 3 tiny tiny kids,by the looks of it(I have them safe and sound) all are feeding now,see if I can get ya a pic,tomrrow,if I come up for air long enough

Bloody dart keepers 'eh

hey Joe

where ya going with that gun in your hand:lol2:

ahh mate I'm sorry I've resisted that for ages,Mitch's drumming so cool,its da jazz triplets an drags man:whistling2:

Thanks bro cool aren't they mikes gonna love them,he has no idea JUST HOW MUCH either,:flrt::flrt:

lovely ain't it

Stu


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## ticmike

Ha ha it certainly turns into an obsession rather than a hobby  certainly not a bad thing, glad today hear they're all doing well. 
Look forward to coming over to you in next couple of weeks. 

I've got a fortnight off work finally, so get everything sorted then I'll be over.


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## Meefloaf

im the "it's best to wait to have the viv ready and set up for the frogs before you buy them" kinda guy who was building a viv for some mysties..... until stu pulled out three amazing super blue auratus lol luckily i had a spare 45cube that was semi built for them to 'qurantine' in

as for you Stu, when i was working in gardens a proper old hippy (still off his head from seeing the stones in 69 i imagine) came in "heeey guys, thats my woman there, ahh man isnt she beautiful, we've been together 30years maan, today she left her husband isnt that beautiful" then asked me my name "heeeey Joe, where you going with that gun in yooour haand, its a beautiful name maan, you like jimi hendrix, beautiful song".....i went and got lunch and was walking back to work as he drove by "HEEEEEY JOE ! WHERE YOU GOING WITH THAT BAGUETTE IN YOUR HAND" lol

Joe


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## soundstounite

Mike clock this,it's actually the first time I've shot a mystie kid this age with the macro lens,always thought they were fairly see through ,but not this much,man he's soooo tiny:gasp:










Naturally we have to have an smurf update



















seeya 

Stu


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## ticmike

Ohhh wow thats unreal, what a photo.
Cant wait to come down, This wait has seemed like an eternity lol


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## Meefloaf

no parade raining going on here stu but you reminded me of a pic our new friend reptilia put up on facebook of a whites tree frog tad


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## plasma234

sorry, does no one think that that looks like this?










http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Poliwag_(Pokémon)


----------



## soundstounite

plasma234 said:


> sorry, does no one think that that looks like this?
> 
> image
> 
> http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Poliwag_(Pokémon)


fortunatly I seem to be spared stuff like this Calz,guess it's me age mate,:lol2:

But thanks on the other picture that is very cool. Mate I don't give a flying for parade raining,it just doesn't occur to me,I'm just grateful for the time given and you showing us that cool piccy,it's awesome well done to the guys at reptillia:notworthy:


oh Mike I can make the waiting harder ya know:lol2:,only kidding mate,I really know how hard it is,but promise it will be worth it. 

Thanks Calz

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

plasma234 said:


> sorry, does no one think that that looks like this?
> 
> image
> 
> http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Poliwag_(Pokémon)


dont calz, i need to catch one of these atm lol


----------



## soundstounite

Ha we put our 4 remaining hold back atichis together today,they are a hopeful 2pr reared now for yonks on their own,just shy of the 2 year mark. All in an effort to get close to WC siize,we are a gnats short of the mark I guess,but what followed was bloody fantastic to watch. One female hit the ground in the fellas tub,it took just seconds for him to turn and start calling and her to bounce over say hey babe and start stroking and courtship. The second pair a little bit slower game on say 5/10 mintues,so sorry no pics,two years care gets some special viewing huh ,well deserved,ahh just lovely to watch !! Seriously lovely:flrt:

Nic...njac if you read this give me a shout please,if anyone knows how to access dendroworld give me a shout please if anyone can put me intouch with Nic,well give me a shout please:blush::lol2:

Ahh what a treat,we are by no means there on the tinc quest,but a couple of new guys whom started rearing these say one year into keeping,got ruddy close on a first attempt at a proper method. I still think the discipline required to provide that constant food supply the patience to keep them apart for long enough means many tincs will not be the mad stonking puppies they should be!! 

I still think them to be tricky, because of the aforementioned reasons,but if we can get this close that means others can. That is a RUSH for me!! 

A hunch, one hell of a lot of kind guidance and help. Thoughts from all over the ruddy planet,have lead us to a practical working method,for one morph of tinctorious,which I can compare first hand to WC adults.

I won't say we made the grade ,we DIDN'T,one female say 1cm short,one say a gnats off on SNVL the two boys again a few mm off,but what I will do is thank a guy called Todd who sowed a seed in my head yonks back,then this canuck guy who claims an accidental realization:Na_Na_Na_NaI don't believe the bugger,too humble and too clever) plus a guy called Jon for his thoughts,and Wendy too in one eye opener thread stateside 

Thanks guys, YOUR kindness got us here. Nearly two years of pushing and a method is out there

jump::jump::jump::jump:


bring it the hell on

Stu


----------



## PigeonYouDead

Haven't been on in a while, 3 pages of thread to catch up on!! :gasp: Had a poorly dog, and a shedload of other stuff to sort out too. Nice to come back and have a read!

Reminded me to get my woodlice on some cuttlefish. Opened the tub yesterday to see lots and lots of teeny tiny white woodlice trundling about, so obviously doing something right if they're having babies!

Will hopefully pick up work on the tank in the coming weeks. My poor plants need to be moved in asap so I can get them planted in properly and under the correct lighting / get the moss growing etc.

Really glad your little ones are doing so well Stu. They look great!! I actually saw one of the whites tree frog babies at Reptilia. They have a bunch of them in an aquarium, and they really are that transparent in real life. Very weird!!


----------



## soundstounite

PigeonYouDead said:


> Haven't been on in a while, 3 pages of thread to catch up on!! :gasp: Had a poorly dog, and a shedload of other stuff to sort out too. Nice to come back and have a read!
> 
> Reminded me to get my woodlice on some cuttlefish. Opened the tub yesterday to see lots and lots of teeny tiny white woodlice trundling about, so obviously doing something right if they're having babies!
> 
> Will hopefully pick up work on the tank in the coming weeks. My poor plants need to be moved in asap so I can get them planted in properly and under the correct lighting / get the moss growing etc.
> 
> Really glad your little ones are doing so well Stu. They look great!! I actually saw one of the whites tree frog babies at Reptilia. They have a bunch of them in an aquarium, and they really are that transparent in real life. Very weird!!


Hey mate,hope things are a bit better now.

Linds the mystie tads are tiny tiny things,I guess the body is max 3mm,so I've not really seen this level of magnification before,I was playing cropping last night just blowing up that pic ,although it's not the sharpest image in the world,one can see veins shadow of lungs I think,plus obviously the digestive tract as above, It's been an eye opener really. They are very different to any other dart tad we've hatched so far,wonderful to see this really.

Got a few azzies now popping in and out of the water,all looks good/as it should,so I'm well chuffed.

I'm just waiting on this last histo kid to exit now,I so hope it's ok.this last one has always reacted the most to me so I'm a bit soft on it already. Not great is it,it's only a bloody tadpole:bash:

good luck with it all kiddo

Stu


----------



## DrNick

I have complete faith Stu  Those redheads will be crawling all over the show in no time. You've demonstrated something special that few of us believed was possible.

Nick


----------



## soundstounite

DrNick said:


> I have complete faith Stu  Those redheads will be crawling all over the show in no time. You've demonstrated something special that few of us believed was possible.
> 
> Nick


Hey Nick,lovely words mate,thanks:notworthy: The faith was not in vein Nick, she's out and looks great already explored most of her tub and a good size too,possibly bigger than the others,as a side note. I'm genuinely bewildered Nick,to keep three going and have them all come out with no sls or smaller than they should be,just much later term wise has me utterly gobsmacked.:gasp:

This one will have me in wonderment for a long time Nick,now it's all about seeing how far they get and if there is are any implications to parental care they might show,to their offspring,for the mo though just joy !!

take care

Stu


----------



## PigeonYouDead

soundstounite said:


> Hey mate,hope things are a bit better now.
> 
> Linds the mystie tads are tiny tiny things,I guess the body is max 3mm,so I've not really seen this level of magnification before,I was playing cropping last night just blowing up that pic ,although it's not the sharpest image in the world,one can see veins shadow of lungs I think,plus obviously the digestive tract as above, It's been an eye opener really. They are very different to any other dart tad we've hatched so far,wonderful to see this really.
> 
> Got a few azzies now popping in and out of the water,all looks good/as it should,so I'm well chuffed.
> 
> I'm just waiting on this last histo kid to exit now,I so hope it's ok.this last one has always reacted the most to me so I'm a bit soft on it already. Not great is it,it's only a bloody tadpole:bash:
> 
> good luck with it all kiddo
> 
> Stu


Yeah you know that expression... same :censor:, different day haha. 

When I found out the lizard had cancer for definite, frankly I just felt like chucking the whole tank in the bin. It's that knee-jerk reaction of "That's it! I'm never getting any animals ever again". It's taken me a few weeks to get my head around it all, and now I'm ready to work on the viv again. She's off the painkillers and antibiotics, healing well and enjoying us not poking and prodding her and forcing her mouth open etc.

Ah honestly, it's amazing the things you get attached to, don't try and justify it to me :lol2:. You can't put your finger on why, and they seem so small and insignificant in the greater scheme of things, but bring you a great amount of joy at the same time.

Was thinking about it this evening, and what you're doing is amazing. What you've discovered and managed is like... ground-breaking stuff. :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

PigeonYouDead said:


> Yeah you know that expression... same :censor:, different day haha.
> 
> When I found out the lizard had cancer for definite, frankly I just felt like chucking the whole tank in the bin. It's that knee-jerk reaction of "That's it! I'm never getting any animals ever again". It's taken me a few weeks to get my head around it all, and now I'm ready to work on the viv again. She's off the painkillers and antibiotics, healing well and enjoying us not poking and prodding her and forcing her mouth open etc.
> 
> Ah honestly, it's amazing the things you get attached to, don't try and justify it to me :lol2:. You can't put your finger on why, and they seem so small and insignificant in the greater scheme of things, but bring you a great amount of joy at the same time.
> 
> Was thinking about it this evening, and what you're doing is amazing. What you've discovered and managed is like... ground-breaking stuff. :2thumb:


It's not really ground breaking Linds,it's been done before,but it does seem to be something fraught with failure,many many have tried,few get as lucky as we have been. I'm at a loss really as to a reason for the apparent success,maybe it's wrapped up in your post,we are a bit soft about 'em.

Lindsay I'm fairly open minded about animals,I don't care much for the so called rules,folks tell others you can't do this or that's wrong,when it's terribly difficult to say such things as all our set ups are different,so I'm always going to explore what can and can't be done,sometimes it will def go pear shaped,others it works out,but one always learns a little more either way.

We have a case above where at this VERY early stage all looks ok,it might still go wrong,but for me the whole process has taught me things that I didn't know or reinforced others , so I think it will make me better at looking after mum and dad and their kids in viv.

It is amazing Linds,it's not the fact that Shaz and I did this,it's that simple fact they are here and we've been able to see all this and be part of it,I'm utterly bemused that they have come out so strong and look right.

Thanks mate 

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

young azzie









the three hand reared histos



























some of our red frog beach kids





































take care

Stu


----------



## gwnm

stu 
they are absolutely stunning, i just love the red kids

who am i kidding i think they are all fantastic


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## creg

:mf_dribble:


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## Meefloaf

RED FROG BEACH KIDS !!!! woah woah woah, you know stu.... i have lots of strawberry wine:mf_dribble:


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

Stu mate there really stunning I love the RFB kids the one with almost no spots is fantastic and the marking on them red heads is pure bliss the colour is ace .... These been fed on super pig??? Do u think it plays a part mate (if u do that is) 


Thanks 
Dane


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## chrism

Cheeky little treat there Stu- didn't realise you had histris! 
What do you mean hand reared? 



soundstounite said:


> young azzie
> image
> 
> the three hand reared histos
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> some of our red frog beach kids
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> take care
> 
> Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> RED FROG BEACH KIDS !!!! woah woah woah, you know stu.... i have lots of strawberry wine:mf_dribble:


Gyn thanks mate and Mr Creg.

Joe me young mucker ya good bro,love to Paula thanks mate,you need to see them again:whistling2:

Got enough stawbs to make some wine mate,good year this:2thumb: picking by the bucket now...game on!!

thanks guys!!

Stu


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## Meefloaf

October is a long way away, i feel a nice weekend break needed lol


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## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> Stu mate there really stunning I love the RFB kids the one with almost no spots is fantastic and the marking on them red heads is pure bliss the colour is ace .... These been fed on super pig??? Do u think it plays a part mate (if u do that is)
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Dane


The irony is I've been told today that my RFB pics are crap,what's worse is it's two folks that I trust totally,worse than that,they are right:gasp:

Dane I'll be serious,what I'm actually saying is these are deeper red in the flesh,sure a variance in shade,but the light as I took the pictures was certainly effecting colour,so I didn't do as well as I hoped,that said I'm thrilled with them and would rather this than the other way around.

Dane yup superpig features,I guess on say a two week rotation,but it's also mixed at 5% into the bugburger that is in the pums viv. Well ok untill the bloody iso eat it all. Dane seriously I do think it's having an effect,these are the most vibrant red kids so far and more yet to be pulled. Buddy it could be co incidence,something in the genes who knows,got a hunch I'll keep up the burger regime though.

I should have another no spots red same age still in viv Dane unless something bad has happened,I've only seen the two at the same time once,but not long back,tis just catching them. for a bright red frog they can be amazing at the disappearing act!! I can't remember if it carries the white up the tummy so far though. Dane the contrast,there is def one spotty guy like this,between white and red plus little white feet is stunning they are all that I dreamed of breeding,it isn't to my credit,it's just the frogs that did this,but man it's beautiful to see. I seriously need some girls now in this batch!!

The red head colour is transient mate,unfortunately,they all seem to start with this amazing gold/bronze ,then it fades to yellow as they age,only time will tell if any get red heads. Bro have a look at Scott's(Boombotty) red heads posted recently on our thread on DB...WOW!!

best always mate

Stu


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## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> October is a long way away, i feel a nice weekend break needed lol


six months 6 days a week ...you and me both bro,time off soon:2thumb:

Stu


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## soundstounite

chrism said:


> Cheeky little treat there Stu- didn't realise you had histris!
> What do you mean hand reared?


what I mean Chris is I reared them not mum,if you flip back a bit you'll find a bit more info and pictures.

Basically I've used Rob Melancom's method: see robbster.com look up top,alternatives for obligates,just don't ask me how or why it's worked out(SO FAR!!),I'm amazed and completely bewildered and not a bloody clue why they are here now,but they are!!

Stu


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## DrNick

soundstounite said:


> ...bewildered and not a bloody clue why they are here now,but they are!!


Not bewildering to me Stu - pretty straightforward in fact. All it took was someone with a bit of commitment to give it a proper go! Nature keeps things simple 

Nick


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## Meefloaf

.....just been re-reading a few bits Stu

1) how bigs that RFB viv ? lol

2) I've been thinking of using your partial cork/foam method and wondering about making the sections outside of the viv using styrofoam and inserting them back in once covered in rockoflex and epoxy (although i'm still thinking of going down the silicone route, although my idea is to basically make up the rock faces and rocks etc and then epoxy loads of it, although i hear it drys fast, so may have to attempt the ratio business lol) so i'm wondering if i could do this and then silicone them back in place inside the viv. i think this is the method you applied to the red head viv


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> .....just been re-reading a few bits Stu
> 
> 1) how bigs that RFB viv ? lol
> 
> 2) I've been thinking of using your partial cork/foam method and wondering about making the sections outside of the viv using styrofoam and inserting them back in once covered in rockoflex and epoxy (although i'm still thinking of going down the silicone route, although my idea is to basically make up the rock faces and rocks etc and then epoxy loads of it, although i hear it drys fast, so may have to attempt the ratio business lol) so i'm wondering if i could do this and then silicone them back in place inside the viv. i think this is the method you applied to the red head viv


50sq base 60high Joe

that is exactly what I did: cork surround, made all the bits outside, then placed in afterwards and siliconed in place . Working time will depend on temp,but graft hard and say around an hour to work into,but it's real head down stuff Joe TOTALLY be prepared !! You have to mix epoxy at the right ratio Joe,no room for error it has to be right!!

hope ya good mate:2thumb:

Stu


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## Meefloaf

i've been sent the ENT mixing advice. i'll either give that a go or just go for it all on several pieces, possibly getting paula to help too lol

cheers Stu, hope all is good your end, been a long busy week


----------



## soundstounite

DrNick said:


> Not bewildering to me Stu - pretty straightforward in fact. All it took was someone with a bit of commitment to give it a proper go! Nature keeps things simple
> 
> Nick


G'day Nick,to be completely fair you have ALWAYS said this could be done and you have that brain that I really don't: that understands complexity. But the simple stuff and the possible need to be committed is where we both come in,the simple stuff pulled out as far as we can take it is all we really do. I am genuinely bewildered Nick, so many have failed,but behind that is the the guys' running off to do ,all the time everyday. Nature does keep it simple Nick,I concur,but slowly one see's grabbing the simple things and doing them as best one can,will lead to a place where the head scratching starts.

This is a tough gig it's playing to an audience of one,not a load of folks whom came to see you, proper beating you're self to a crisp for what? The what is not given,but it's there to be taken!! A drummer's analogy: one can't do this half hearted, it won't work,tis a 1/3 into the set mate,with no one to play too, What comes next?

Did that sound mad?:lol2:

But it's alright they are still here

take care bro

Stu


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## soundstounite

Sadly I have to report the loss of one of the hand reared guys,it is possible that supression might just have been a player,if so the madness here of late points to one keeper error. It might just be one of those things of course,but I'm kicking myself a bit anyway.

The other two are good so far growing well and look robust at this stage,we'll see how all this ends up as it progresses.

The new vents I'm using on the springtail cultures seem to be working as planned so far, but it's real early days,only weeks in.I'm not actually sure whether I've mentioned them here yet!! I'll bang some detail up once time allows,but straight up I'd like to thank Jaize for his input and huge kindness on this one.

New azzies doing well,second clutch ootw and again off to a flier,somehow I've got a leuc about to morph way in front of his siblings,god knows how though:gasp:

take care all

Stu


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## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> Sadly I have to report the loss of one of the hand reared guys,it is possible that supression might just have been a player,if so the madness here of late points to one keeper error. It might just be one of those things of course,but I'm kicking myself a bit anyway.
> 
> The other two are good so far growing well and look robust at this stage,we'll see how all this ends up as it progresses.
> 
> The new vents I'm using on the springtail cultures seem to be working as planned so far, but it's real early days,only weeks in.I'm not actually sure whether I've mentioned them here yet!! I'll bang some detail up once time allows,but straight up I'd like to thank Jaize for his input and huge kindness on this one.
> 
> New azzies doing well,second clutch ootw and again off to a flier,somehow I've got a leuc about to morph way in front of his siblings,god knows how though:gasp:
> 
> take care all
> 
> Stu


 arrrr dude. gutted for you mate to be honest these frogs are known for dramatic deaths and I would think more likely "one of them things" or "nature" then anything you did mate... stay strong what you are doing is truly amazing. 

interested in this vent thing on springs  and good news on azzies :2thumb:


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## Meefloaf

ah no, so sorry to hear this Stu :sad: was going to shoot you a message asking how you, shaz and the kids were getting on, i've been wrapped up in work and the world cup


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## PigeonYouDead

Sorry to hear this Stu. Know how much they all mean to you :grouphug:


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## Ron Magpie

I'm sorry for the loss, my friend- but instead of beating yourself up, take some credit for getting as far as you have- and still are, with the other two. You and I know that zillions of factors come together to affect even 'easy' species.


----------



## gwnm

truly sorry for you and shaz stu, but don't beat yourself up about it, you know it could be a million and one things that could go wrong, sods law

just think how far you have actually got, you hand raised froglets which in its self is amazing

big hugs to you and shaz


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> arrrr dude. gutted for you mate to be honest these frogs are known for dramatic deaths and I would think more likely "one of them things" or "nature" then anything you did mate... stay strong what you are doing is truly amazing.
> 
> interested in this vent thing on springs  and good news on azzies :2thumb:


Dane, I spotted he wasn't quite right maybe 2 days before the death and moved the other,it's just impossible to know whether what they went through to get this far is the real culprit,but I think I should have and could have moved faster,it's a real tough call dude,timing and observation can be key players in these things. A tiny thing not long out of the water has little in the way of reserves,the moves have to be fast. genuinely I thought i might have got there quick enough,but I knew at the time this would be touch and go. Ahh mate such a sweet little thing. By the same token with these hand reared histos,this could happen anytime,there is a long road to travel with the others,but X and Y are good so my solace is with then.

Buddy Jaize has studied micro biology. I've long been aware of the 3 micron filters used in the states for springtail cultures,obviously they have to be mite proof(to my humble eye they also need to not cause too much lack of moisture.One also must factor in a sealed culture is constantly building up CO2 levels not only from respiration of the beasties but also the yeast I use adds to this,which can't be the ideal environment for springtails to live under. My problem is always centered on the really banging culture where one has zillions of the little blighters breathing,plus one can so easily be drawn into feeding a touch more,because of the numbers. Factor in, as some of you have seen I have a couple or three springtails on the go here. So one is tied to an everyother day routine of opening them all,just to vent let alone feed the blighters. 

So I asked Jaize if he could use his nouce to help out on this one,I've tried to find something here myself but failed,he talked to some folks and nailed it I think,they are a type of filter used for orchid culture,also keep out fungal spores into the bargain,although I'm not much concerned on that,ruddy spirng will munch those anyway. not only that but Jaize sent me some to trial,cheers that top man!!

Here ya go folks,at the moment I'm trialing one per tub,but one up and on the oposite side one down,to let air in at the top CO2(heavier than air) out at the base,might be a better option. Drill 8 mm hole in tub stick on filter job done

ORCHID FLASKS FILTERS 0.2 µm PORE PACK OF 20 SELF ADHESIVE AUTOCLAVABLE | eBay

These might just make life alot simpler for me,plus give better results

thanks for the kind words bro

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Joe Linds Ron Matt

Just thanks guys,monster thanks actually,my post to Dane ,first para pretty much covers my little mate,but I would still like to say cheers to all of you for the words and kind ones at that,i'm fried guys,but needed to say thankyou properly before lights out

best always all of ya

Stu


----------



## Vixon

Hey guys, this is my first venture onto this epic post although I've read some of it over the last few weeks. Been interested in the springtails discussion and it set me thinking.

To those of you that culture springtails I am considering adding some to my water dragon enclosure, not to act as custodians there as such - mainly just as a breeding ground/reserve. We have just set up the new 3.5x4x2 viv with eco earth as substrate, the water dragons mainly defecate in their water tray so they wouldn't need to be dealing with a full waste cycle and I would supplement their diet with fish flakes and/or ready break. Would this be viable do you think?


----------



## soundstounite

Vixon said:


> Hey guys, this is my first venture onto this epic post although I've read some of it over the last few weeks. Been interested in the springtails discussion and it set me thinking.
> 
> To those of you that culture springtails I am considering adding some to my water dragon enclosure, not to act as custodians there as such - mainly just as a breeding ground/reserve. We have just set up the new 3.5x4x2 viv with eco earth as substrate, the water dragons mainly defecate in their water tray so they wouldn't need to be dealing with a full waste cycle and I would supplement their diet with fish flakes and/or ready break. Would this be viable do you think?


Vicky,I'm just specialising in darts so no experience to draw on with the waterdragaons,but for me I see no harm in adding springs to the dragons den,but I personally wouldn't use those to stock other vivs I would still culture. i'm a picky old sod about trying not to spread any potential pathogens about,whether it be out side or viv to viv. We really needs ron's input here,he's got that fantastic all rounders nouce. But for me I'm all for a bioactive sub and I'd probably be adding other beasties too such as woodlice,maybe even earth worms. i'm also slightly wary of just ecoearth as a substrate as it hold's so much water,but this may be exactly what one wants for the dragons?

Vicky this answer must be taken with a pinch of salt in regards to the dragons though,due to my lack of knowledge on how they are kept,partially I'm answering out of courtesy,but there is always something to learn and I'd welcome contradicting opinions on all this,but for me the custodian aspect is totally what I would be looking for.

not much help really just musings

best

Stu


----------



## Vixon

Thanks for your thoughts Stu, it's always good to have someone else first instinct even if they have no direct knowledge of a species. Despite being a nurse, cross contamination never occurred to me.


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

im sure i have read somewhere that as geckos do not have a seperate wee / poo hole thing and that there poop and wee are discreated the same time they contain harmful nitrate levels that can cause illness to frogs......... i dont know how true this is

as we know springs eat poop i wouldnt then uses springs for my frogs just incase 

it also is a way to spread unknown ilnesses and stuff, when i kept my geckos i used to ensure everything was seperate...... 

however woods and springs are great for the CWD viv just be prepared to be overrun especially if you put in tropical white woods lol..... springs i used to find would crash then boom then crash like a cycle... after all they will only produce if food available


----------



## Ron Magpie

Hi Vixon, before I say anything, let's be clear that despite anything Stu says, I'm no kind of expert! :lol2: I can give you my thoughts, though:
Firstly, although cross contamination between species is a real thing (for example many tortoises carry parasites that are relatively harmless to them, but lethal to lizards kept with them), I have never yet heard of a pathogen transmitted via springtails. Doesn't mean there isn't one, just never heard of it. The soil itself might be a different issue, though, unless you can figure out how to transport sufficient springtails without taking the soil, too. I have often introduced springtails to new vivs (as custodians) by floating a dead leaf in the water bowl of the old one and placing it on the substrate in the new- but you would be *really* unlikely to catch enough feeders that way!
Secondly, even though your dragons mostly excrete in the water, don't underestimate the value of a clean-up crew! Practially all my vivs (including the drier ones, such as the corn snake and plated lizard set-ups) are based on bioactive principles- it cuts down on cleaning out in a big way. As Stu says, I'd consider woodlice and worms, too- compost worms, rather than earthworms, as they do better at higher temps- and are excellent at clearing away dung.
Thirdly, Dane is quite right that lizards (unlike most frogs) excrete their urates in solid form, but springs and all the others are quite capable of dealing with them- and don't seem to become in any way more toxic as a result.

So basically I'm agreeing with the others, really, lol- it's a good idea to introduce them, and possibly a useful back-up if you run into problems with a culture, but I wouldn't advise making your CWD set-up the main culture, simply for practical reasons. 

One more point, I agree with Stu that eco earth on it's own isn't great- with a couple of galumphing great lizards dragging water over it all the time, it will get soggy very quickly. You might want to mix in a goood proportion of orchid bark to loosen it up and give it some drainage. Hope all that waffling a) makes sense and b) is helpful!


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Hi Vixon, before I say anything, let's be clear that despite anything Stu says, I'm no kind of expert! :lol2: I can give you my thoughts, though:
> Firstly, although cross contamination between species is a real thing (for example many tortoises carry parasites that are relatively harmless to them, but lethal to lizards kept with them), I have never yet heard of a pathogen transmitted via springtails. Doesn't mean there isn't one, just never heard of it. The soil itself might be a different issue, though, unless you can figure out how to transport sufficient springtails without taking the soil, too. I have often introduced springtails to new vivs (as custodians) by floating a dead leaf in the water bowl of the old one and placing it on the substrate in the new- but you would be *really* unlikely to catch enough feeders that way!
> Secondly, even though your dragons mostly excrete in the water, don't underestimate the value of a clean-up crew! Practially all my vivs (including the drier ones, such as the corn snake and plated lizard set-ups) are based on bioactive principles- it cuts down on cleaning out in a big way. As Stu says, I'd consider woodlice and worms, too- compost worms, rather than earthworms, as they do better at higher temps- and are excellent at clearing away dung.
> Thirdly, Dane is quite right that lizards (unlike most frogs) excrete their urates in solid form, but springs and all the others are quite capable of dealing with them- and don't seem to become in any way more toxic as a result.
> 
> So basically I'm agreeing with the others, really, lol- it's a good idea to introduce them, and possibly a useful back-up if you run into problems with a culture, but I wouldn't advise making your CWD set-up the main culture, simply for practical reasons.
> 
> One more point, I agree with Stu that eco earth on it's own isn't great- with a couple of galumphing great lizards dragging water over it all the time, it will get soggy very quickly. You might want to mix in a goood proportion of orchid bark to loosen it up and give it some drainage. Hope all that waffling a) makes sense and b) is helpful!


Ha that first line made me smile, Ron we are so similar mate,neither would want the expert tag too bloody much to learn ,and we both know it!! But I would and always will value your opinion. So an apology for calling you out a bit there,just you are the guy I would ask if I was in Vicky's position it's the diversity of species kept and the long watched sense talked. Even in a waffle huh:lol2:

Cheers for the input kiddo and you Dane, both have more to offer than I for Vick,much appreciated

thanks lads

Stu


----------



## PigeonYouDead

I'd actually not considered the wee/poo thing from the other side. Do frogs have liquid urine? I assumed there'd be a little white blob like lizard/snake matter!


----------



## Ron Magpie

PigeonYouDead said:


> I'd actually not considered the wee/poo thing from the other side. Do frogs have liquid urine? I assumed there'd be a little white blob like lizard/snake matter!


Lol, yes, frog urine is liquid. The solid white urates produced by lizards and some other reptiles are a way of saving water- not usually an issue for frogs. It is part of their adaption to living in relatively dry environments.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Lol, yes, frog urine is liquid. The solid white urates produced by lizards and some other reptiles are a way of saving water- not usually an issue for frogs. It is part of their adaption to living in relatively dry environments.


To add to Ron Linds,with darts specifically laying on land, the male actually goes back and (being polite,ladies present:whistling2, waters the eggs,to keep their moisture content correct. Many times we see a male caring for eggs sat in water,it's not that he's sick,he's just filling up so to speak before looking after his eggs. Dart poo should look pretty similar to mouse droppings I guess for lack of a better description. 

Without wishing to go too far on the poo discussion,I'm sure there are indicators of health in poo ,for darts that we could all learn from,but I haven't detail really to go into,simply put I don't know enough yet. I'm not talking fecals I mean just base symptoms(like poo is always runny or colour abnormalities) we could observe,which might just give us a fore warning that something might be out of kilter. Spotting something is wrong with a frog is very difficult before things are very bad,getting the right vet for treatment even harder. This might just be a way of opening up a bigger window of time to work into when a frog isn't in the best of health.

With all those birds I kept droppings were a real clue before there was any visible sign that a bird was ill that something was wrong,for example yellow droppings in a turkey pen a possible indicator of blackhead,green possibly indicating worms in waterfowl
I think there is much to learn here and totally applicable to our frogs,it's just knowing how to, cough cough, read it

Man we had to go there didn't we:lol2: but I'm utterly convinced there is room to learn on this subject,how we actually go about assessing this god knows though!!

take care

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

Haha, as you know Stu, one of my high school projects in Brazil was analysing the droppings of wild cane toads (we called them 'marine toads' in those days) to see what they had been eating. I found surprisingly large amounts of snail shell fragments and beetle wing cases- which is why I always s****** a bit when people worry about their frogs 'delicate digestion':lol2:!


----------



## Vixon

Sorry I didn't reply earlier, been reading answers when I don't have freedom to reply then forgetting to reply. Thanks for all your I input. Will get springs for the CWD viv and just keep my 5 litre tub handy for culturing spare springs and w/l.


----------



## soundstounite

Vixon said:


> Sorry I didn't reply earlier, been reading answers when I don't have freedom to reply then forgetting to reply. Thanks for all your I input. Will get springs for the CWD viv and just keep my 5 litre tub handy for culturing spare springs and w/l.


No worries mate...always welcome:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> I'm sorry for the loss, my friend- but instead of beating yourself up, take some credit for getting as far as you have- and still are, with the other two. You and I know that zillions of factors come together to affect even 'easy' species.


Ron I thought I'd go back to this,as the flip side is about to follow. I think i'll always be cut down when I loose something Ron I kick myself about for not being onit(goodenough) and try to articulate why I think I went wrong. But I spare no quarter on me that's for others. To put it differently if one's world of frogs isn't dictated by one's passion for them ,the highs and the lows are not felt the same

And naturally the flip side,who else would be jumping about all day smiling 'cause he just found some eggs,nowt is it just some froggy eggs, right!!

Most don't do this though:jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump: but that's exactly how I feel better than wining the lotto.

Today after trying for nearly two years I guess,hell it might be more I found a clutch of Summersi eggs:no1: Look I don't really care if they are fertile just yet or they hatch or they rear,it's just two years no embryos two years learning the frog how to get them breeding,how to stop them,with always the same result.NO EMBRYO/YOLK . Today I finally know what they look like,I'm sure as houses gonna breed Summersi,maybe not this time,but it will happen,ok it's always been going to happen,I'm a stubborn git,but this is such a massive step closer,I'm going to win now I bloody know it!!
OOO...bloody... RAAAA


Guys I need some help please, I need some quality pics of rani embryos quickly. I suspect I have to right some eggs, if anyone can help within the next few hours I'd really appreciate it

I'll pull on dusk ,i'm amazed at 6 embryos,thoughts were maybe 2.....4 at max. 

Ahh Ron my other two young histos are fine and doing,so far so good,I knew it might be like this and no way am I there yet with them,more heart ache might follow,but that's animals,one has to go there and care otherwise days like today just don't happen 

BRING IT THE HELL ON:lol2:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

so glad you've had some fun with the summersi Stu, might be a bit mental, but are the other two courting ? might have spurred something on ? either way, congrats fella


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> so glad you've had some fun with the summersi Stu, might be a bit mental, but are the other two courting ? might have spurred something on ? either way, congrats fella


The other two have always courted Joe,it's sporadic but give them a low and a downpour,co-incide the keeper doing his bit...of they go, I've watched hours of it. This is the new guys breeding Joe,sure the old pair react, to them,but I'm still getting no embryo eggs with the one's I've had for ages. So the summersi from Richie/Ben UE have just got old enough basically.I suspect they have laid before though,Shaz heard calling a whle back and two frogs were missing. They are still very shy Joe so I'm not able to see the new frogs going about all this to the same level...YET...it will come

best

Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> Ron I thought I'd go back to this,as the flip side is about to follow. I think i'll always be cut down when I loose something Ron I kick myself about for not being onit(goodenough) and try to articulate why I think I went wrong. But I spare no quarter on me that's for others. To put it differently if one's world of frogs isn't dictated by one's passion for them ,the highs and the lows are not felt the same
> 
> And naturally the flip side,who else would be jumping about all day smiling 'cause he just found some eggs,nowt is it just some froggy eggs, right!!
> 
> Most don't do this though:jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump:but that's exactly how I feel better than wining the lotto.
> 
> Today after trying for nearly two years I guess,hell it might be more I found a clutch of Summersi eggs:no1: Look I don't really care if they are fertile just yet or they hatch or they rear,it's just two years no embryos two years learning the frog how to get them breeding,how to stop them,with always the same result.NO EMBRYO/YOLK . Today I finally know what they look like,I'm sure as houses gonna breed Summersi,maybe not this time,but it will happen,ok it's always been going to happen,I'm a stubborn git,but this is such a massive step closer,I'm going to win now I bloody know it!!
> OOO...bloody... RAAAA
> 
> 
> Guys I need some help please, I need some quality pics of rani embryos quickly. I suspect I have to right some eggs, if anyone can help within the next few hours I'd really appreciate it
> 
> I'll pull on dusk ,i'm amazed at 6 embryos,thoughts were maybe 2.....4 at max.
> 
> Ahh Ron my other two young histos are fine and doing,so far so good,I knew it might be like this and no way am I there yet with them,more heart ache might follow,but that's animals,one has to go there and care otherwise days like today just don't happen
> 
> BRING IT THE HELL ON:lol2:
> 
> Stu




whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
congratulations mate finger toes and everything else crossed 

for pics of eggs take a look on 1st post here sorry I couldn't get it to you sooner fella

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/1030413-some-easter-fun.html


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
> congratulations mate finger toes and everything else crossed
> 
> for pics of eggs take a look on 1st post here sorry I couldn't get it to you sooner fella
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/1030413-some-easter-fun.html


:lol2: thanks buddy. Dane they have surprised me in that uppermost is pale,when I pulled late last night they all looked identical orientation,so i've left alone,seems these might be pale tads leastways when the first start to develop on the yolk. It's the fact we have a pair and good eggs which is so fantastic mate,whether this particular clutch do or not isn't so important in the big scheme it's the start that counts. Sure I want them,but early days,it may well take a few tries before they sort it all out........But I know what a Summersi egg looks like and from here we can only move forward one hopes.

Dane 6 eggs too that's a shock I expected max of 4

Damn I'm thrilled to bits mate just over the ruddy moon,thanks again bro 

Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

6 eggs mate that is a shock I for some reason assumed 2 or 3
Could be a double clutch I find if I dry a few of my rani out then get them going they lay extra big clutch. 
Just out of curiosity why have u pulled them mate? I have struggled with eggs out of the viv recently so leave them to transport tads to a few film pots at front of viv and pull then. I have been far more successful that way leaving parents to keep the eggs moist then me 


Thanks 
Dane


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> 6 eggs mate that is a shock I for some reason assumed 2 or 3
> Could be a double clutch I find if I dry a few of my rani out then get them going they lay extra big clutch.
> Just out of curiosity why have u pulled them mate? I have struggled with eggs out of the viv recently so leave them to transport tads to a few film pots at front of viv and pull then. I have been far more successful that way leaving parents to keep the eggs moist then me
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Dane


Simply put,I pull alot of stuff anyway Dane,with no parental care...cough cough supposedly:whistling2:...there seems no reason not to. I really loose very little to pulling Dane, very rarely a clutch goes bad,but I just clobber that with the Alder tea. From hatch onwards I can feed what i want change water at will, oh and provide a larger volume for each tad,which might also affect morphout size. I guess this is actually where we have more experience,basically.I've done it with everything now bar a pum,so really rani should work too,one would hope. I guess this might give higher production too,but that is the furthest thing from my mind,I just think my quality of offspring will be higher mate. Man i can't wait to rear one of these now i'm itching for it ahh to see one colour up and come ootw is going to be wonderful

Two new RFB kids ootw today:mf_dribble:new sB's today and more coming leucs starting to show colour plus azzie and atachi with front leg bumps it's mad here

Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

I was the same mate I have pulled many with no issues vents like it more damp then most but can I hell get any retic eggs to hatch on my own which is why I started to leave all my frogs to it and let them transport .., once in that water there mine and like u said feed and water change wen I want I have started to test the water now for ph and nitrates as I lost 3 tads a few months back and I have in the last 2 months seen spikes in 3 wAter readings that I have acted upon and hand on heart believe them tads would have died if not stepped in. Funny thing is same tubs with same amount of water feed the same tads same sp and same size from same clutch and same water source yet 20% had a nitrate spike same week ummm odd. It's all about learning 


Thanks 
Dane


----------



## soundstounite

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> I was the same mate I have pulled many with no issues vents like it more damp then most but can I hell get any retic eggs to hatch on my own which is why I started to leave all my frogs to it and let them transport .., once in that water there mine and like u said feed and water change wen I want I have started to test the water now for ph and nitrates as I lost 3 tads a few months back and I have in the last 2 months seen spikes in 3 wAter readings that I have acted upon and hand on heart believe them tads would have died if not stepped in. Funny thing is same tubs with same amount of water feed the same tads same sp and same size from same clutch and same water source yet 20% had a nitrate spike same week ummm odd. It's all about learning
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Dane


Do the retics rot Dane,give me some detail as to why they don't hatch,nowt wrong with doing it how you are bro,I'm curious. Mate I keep most eggs in little tuppas,I have water in the bottom and almost float petris on that,1/2 cans usually go in a glass again in tuppa,lid placed on,I mist a tiny spot mist,litterally 2 seconds at most,daily,hell they are in near as dammit 100% humidity anyway,no water sloshing around the eggs,I wonder if the retics just get too wet. 

I've never monitored water honestly Dane, I watch it sure(probably doesn't tell me much:whistling2:but hey I know if i've over fed) feed carefully sure but see very few losses. Percent reared is incredibly high buddy,but I haven't a clue why really,must be doing something right huh.

Tubs how many per tub?..vol of water in a tub? tea? oakleaf/cappata? I'm again very curious Dane let me know if you pin this down to nitrates,for me I'd be suprised because I've seen pums walk out of some filthy broms just fine so I somehow don't think frog waste is an issue,unless the feeding is a potential cause(left over food)? I now don't clean my glasses half so much as I once did,always leave some tad waste in when i do the baster rounds,but food and quantity thereof is so important,plus quantity is probably the biggest variable in your regime all else is the same pretty much,but mate I really am unsure,just musing out loud really. 

Again I'll say this,we all have to find our own method mate,nothing you are doing sounds wrong if one copied me exactly one still might not get the results one requires,but pondering possibles is always fascinating.

Dane I see a change in the Summersi eggs since I pulled last night 24 hours is a big ask but they look fertile to me,I'll regret that you see:bash:

take care bro ,

Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

soundstounite said:


> Do the retics rot Dane,give me some detail as to why they don't hatch,nowt wrong with doing it how you are bro,I'm curious. Mate I keep most eggs in little tuppas,I have water in the bottom and almost float petris on that,1/2 cans usually go in a glass again in tuppa,lid placed on,I mist a tiny spot mist,litterally 2 seconds at most,daily,hell they are in near as dammit 100% humidity anyway,no water sloshing around the eggs,I wonder if the retics just get too wet.
> 
> I've never monitored water honestly Dane, I watch it sure(probably doesn't tell me much:whistling2:but hey I know if i've over fed) feed carefully sure but see very few losses. Percent reared is incredibly high buddy,but I haven't a clue why really,must be doing something right huh.
> 
> Tubs how many per tub?..vol of water in a tub? tea? oakleaf/cappata? I'm again very curious Dane let me know if you pin this down to nitrates,for me I'd be suprised because I've seen pums walk out of some filthy broms just fine so I somehow don't think frog waste is an issue,unless the feeding is a potential cause(left over food)? I now don't clean my glasses half so much as I once did,always leave some tad waste in when i do the baster rounds,but food and quantity thereof is so important,plus quantity is probably the biggest variable in your regime all else is the same pretty much,but mate I really am unsure,just musing out loud really.
> 
> Again I'll say this,we all have to find our own method mate,nothing you are doing sounds wrong if one copied me exactly one still might not get the results one requires,but pondering possibles is always fascinating.
> 
> Dane I see a change in the Summersi eggs since I pulled last night 24 hours is a big ask but they look fertile to me,I'll regret that you see:bash:
> 
> take care bro ,
> 
> Stu


I have done similar thing with small petra dish in a tub. I find they seem to keep the eggs a lot more dryer then others I have seen... how dry I don't know they seem to like to lay them in the leaves or on a brom leaf that don't get wet much..... to be honest I dont have time to nail exactly what they do. we have a good understanding they give me 2 tads every 2 weeks and ill pull them to make room for the next 2 lol

I think your right I think its left over food that's the only thing I think is a variable for example some will eat more then others. I do think poop plays a small part but in the tank the broms do get the water refreshed witch in turns will reduce the nitrate count 

I put nothing in my water at all... its rain water through a sock and that's it. 

I also think the same water must be used and seen this in a few cases where I have swapped tads with people (new thing started on facebook I have found very useful and the folks in US do it a fair bit) at the start I noticed high deaths when swapping to my water as tads came in smallish tubs with little water......... since then I have done 2 things 1, asked for some water from the other trader to last there 3 months until ootw and 2, gradually top up my water 5-10% each week


----------



## frogfreak

How's things Stu?

Sorry for your loss but a *BIG* congrats on the eggs!! Best of luck with them guys! :no1:


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> How's things Stu?
> 
> Sorry for your loss but a *BIG* congrats on the eggs!! Best of luck with them guys! :no1:


OK buddy mental busy,I'll still own the histo loss,but it's life Glenn I ain't perfect,but hey I didn't think my stubborn streak would get them ootw. Beyond that I've eaten all our Strawberries and have just had to force down a blackcurrent cheeses cake that ain't cost me nowt because I grew the cuttings from my own stockplant,life's hard bro,but hell someone has to do it:gasp:

Then we get the flip HUH,two years head down,learning da ropes from the pair and Zilch,but the pair are so cool , I won't part with them!! Summersi the shy,with time mate not here. Then back to the amazing Pepper's,bosh 6 eggs 6 fertile in a few months. 

Glenn for me this exemplifies my phylosophy on dart keeping: One learns and steals as much as one can from the first frogs of a species,but if it isn't meant to be ,you don't blag them to someone else,you keep and start over!!

The first guys still give one joy,they deserve a place in one's collection so they stay,what they taught me is priceless. It is a massive part of why today I have six fertile eggs. But buddy it's more than the fertile eggs it's that little shy male,who now knows me crawling about on the floor digging out springtails banging about right underneath him,and somehow he's got it,he's right there waiting for me,even if the door get's opened:mf_dribble:

The development is really quick Glenn,I knew in 12 hours they were fertile,it's astounding,look i'm not saying they will go anywhere,but just by looking hard even with my crap eyes,I could see that change in the egg.

Buddy isn 't the most important thing to always be bewildered by these frogs,to cherish the child's wonder ,loose this and where are we?

Hey dude how ya doing how's Laura how are the folks?

Stu


----------



## PigeonYouDead

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
> congratulations mate finger toes and everything else crossed
> 
> for pics of eggs take a look on 1st post here sorry I couldn't get it to you sooner fella
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/1030413-some-easter-fun.html



OH GOD. They are so pretty :'( I have absolutely fallen in love with retics and ventrimaculatus. They're on my "some day" list :flrt:


----------



## PigeonYouDead

Also on the whole poo/wee topic, as an animal owner I think you just have to accept that grim as it might be, checking it out can be one of the first indicators that something is wrong. Having kept rabbits for over... 15 years? (that's gone quickly...) the biggest concern with them is when you see little poos, or big squidgy ones, because either or can be life-threatening.

I'm still patiently waiting for the moss to grow in my tank. The new expression in our house is "this is as [boring, tedious etc] as watching moss grow" haha. I keep looking at it trying to convince it to go green and bushy. Also, actually buying the frogs themselves might be postponed even further, as we're now looking for a new house. The neighbours have finally proved too much and we're ready to go :lol2:!


----------



## Ron Magpie

Sorry, in shock here- Stu aint perfect???? :gasp:

Lol, joking aside, mate, of course you are not perfect, but sometimes I think you need to take more credit than you do, for advancing knowledge and helping out in the way you do. Just sayin...


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Sorry, in shock here- Stu aint perfect???? :gasp:
> 
> Lol, joking aside, mate, of course you are not perfect, but sometimes I think you need to take more credit than you do, for advancing knowledge and helping out in the way you do. Just sayin...


ha your killing me bro,damn that made me smile,we all do our bit mate it's cool at the moment the phylosophy of pass it forwards and some day it comes back seems to be more than enough for us. The summersi eggs are developing well buddy I wish I wasn't so busy,I wanted to document this with pics really plus we have little guys appearing right left and center, legs a popping, colours showing, it's a fabulous time here Ron. 


thanks bro
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Anyone know how to get an image out of flickr now?

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Summersi male:










S


----------



## soundstounite

Summersi eggs 5 days in:










Histrionica red head two clutches laid a few days apart










obviously a few days older










Now I've already told you JT lays and as the eggs develop she has timed everything so the guys she is feeding are about to exit the water,I thought maybe something had gone astray this time:whistling2:

WRONG:lol2:










Red frog beach eggs










close to morphing:

Atachibakka(tinc)










superblue(auratus)










leuc









Azzie










young RFB kid ha ha he's my mate cracking little guy










I got a few mins today to play snapperama hope you enjoy

best

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

awesome pics Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Joe thanks mate,it's a special time here little new guys all ways:flrt: plus the summersi have hatched,all six hatched but I am pretty sure one won't make it. My hopes weren't that high anyway being an early,possibly first clutch,so I'm still very thrilled they got this far. the other 5 seem very strong and by the look of it are starting to feed. I can't believe just how quick they developed to hatch point.


A while back Ron and I were talking about carotenoids, John from Arcadia became involved in that conversation and sourced some very concentrated algea packed with caortenoids for us to try out. Damn we have been so busy this year I didn't get chance to really get this set up properly until about 6 weeks back.
See here Ron's rather sad ending thread(gutted mate!!) for more background on our chat about carotenoids and various links and thoughts from others:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/1028116-just-spotted-first-fire-bellied.html

What we have done is used the algae as a water treatement,we have mixed a 1/4 teaspoon of algae into 4L of water . I have two groups of tadpoles 6 to a batch,one acting as a control and one utilising the water with the algae in ti. The tads are paired,two same age same size split between the two sets. i've used leucs,superblue auratus azzies and atachi bakka tadpoles to start off this experiment. I have tried to feed exactly the same quantity of a given food to each tad each time they get fed. they have been fed on cycloopeeze,NLS phib formula pellets tera pro chips in both amimal and plant based protien sources. Tad tea made from aldercone. So really the main variable is the water



So here are the two groups: 

With carotenoid:










Without;










As each pair of tads morphout I'm going to show you ,a picture of each. To keep things simple and not mix this all up,the tads given carots:blush: will have a bit of white tissue under neath. I'm not drawing and real conclusions yet,but certainly the algea hasn't hampered the tads in any way. I'ts a shame I simply don't have the space to keep them split after morphout,but obviously it would be desirable,but at this time it's not an option. As each pair do actually morph ,they are being replaced by the youngest tads I have to hand.. so I'm hoping that at the end of all this we might be able to draw some conclusion as to whether the tads colour has been altered. Obviously there is a bigger picture here in that caroteniods may well be important to the frogs in other ways.

I realise this isn't very sceintific or a complete experiment in any way,but it's a start for me,to try and evaluate this product and it's uses for our beoved darts

More to follow if this machine lets me :bash:

best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Taking pictures at morphout is not the best time for any kind of colour evaluation,as the colour is changing at this time so one can't draw that much from this,Sb's are hugely variable,as are so many other darts.

Here are the first two pics as above white tissue = caroneniods




















again more to follow

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Following on,with the carotenoid post,unfortunately a pr of atachi kids photos,have vanished into the ether,here's a couple of leucs

with carotenoid algea added










without










hopefully more will follow.

unfortunately i have to report that first clutch of summersi,didn't fare well. We lost 4 over a three day period,late in the first week. Why I can only guess,but damn didn't they go down hill quick,within hours they went from looking really good to dead. We still have two left,with a first clutch from young frogs, I guess I'm still fairly upbeat,as I didn't really expect fertility so early on,so it's head up and hope that these little fellas make my little dream happen. The two are growing well.
best

Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

HI Stu

they certainly do seem to be showing nice colours. 

From the other tests that we are running with the VERY expensive food all tads seem to just love it. Everyone has said the same that they have no issues getting the tads to eat it 

if it does turn out to be broadly palatable and increases colours to a more "wild like" level I think we can take this to the next level 

I SOoooooo appreciate off my our partners that work with us on our "secret squirrel" testing. It is one of the methods that I am dedicated to, to ensure that we NEVER market gimmicks but only items that have a positive effect in "Wild re-creation" 

looking forward to seeing more!

john





soundstounite said:


> Following on,with the carotenoid post,unfortunately a pr of atachi kids photos,have vanished into the ether,here's a couple of leucs
> 
> with carotenoid algea added
> 
> image
> 
> without
> 
> image
> 
> hopefully more will follow.
> 
> unfortunately i have to report that first clutch of summersi,didn't fare well. We lost 4 over a three day period,late in the first week. Why I can only guess,but damn didn't they go down hill quick,within hours they went from looking really good to dead. We still have two left,with a first clutch from young frogs, I guess I'm still fairly upbeat,as I didn't really expect fertility so early on,so it's head up and hope that these little fellas make my little dream happen. The two are growing well.
> best
> 
> Stu


----------



## Spikebrit

On i side note to the above Stu, i use carotenoid based supplements with a few of my hatchlings, whilst i haven't photographed my findings i have found it to be really successful. in particular you can see clear improvements in brightness, colour and definition of pattens. I started using it after reading some reports of its effects on a dart forum a few years ago. 

I have really seen the difference with animals that generally start off with a nice colour patten to begin with. So in Stenos and lygodactylus species the carotenoid really bring out the colours. But in comparison i've not noticed any change in leopard gecko hatchlings. 

My only frustration with it is that the carotenoid supplement i have has a distinctive smell which has put off a few of my hatchlings from eating livefood with it on. 

jay


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Wont talk about lizards here for too long : victory:

That's the key with the formula that I am working on, you use it as part of a powerful and all natural "gutloading process" 

You are right, many dislike the taste and or smell of man made supplements. By using a natural product that has 7X the available carotenoid levels and is a whole algae as a food for the feeders we bypass the issue.

The same is true for Phibs that are to be fed livefoods.

John,




Spikebrit said:


> On i side note to the above Stu, i use carotenoid based supplements with a few of my hatchlings, whilst i haven't photographed my findings i have found it to be really successful. in particular you can see clear improvements in brightness, colour and definition of pattens. I started using it after reading some reports of its effects on a dart forum a few years ago.
> 
> I have really seen the difference with animals that generally start off with a nice colour patten to begin with. So in Stenos and lygodactylus species the carotenoid really bring out the colours. But in comparison i've not noticed any change in leopard gecko hatchlings.
> 
> My only frustration with it is that the carotenoid supplement i have has a distinctive smell which has put off a few of my hatchlings from eating livefood with it on.
> 
> jay


----------



## soundstounite

G'day J,how are ya mate,thanks for the thoughts,maybe try the repashy superpig as a dust alternative?

John hey buddy. guys with this being used as I am ,it's not really as a food persay item,but obviously it's present in the water,so every time they feed etc they get some injested. Now I've tried to outline that the stage I'm photographing is a variable stage and at this time we are also low in numbers to make any serious evaluation. But for me, even with those caviats,I'm seeing a slight difference. hopefully that will be confirmed as the little fellas leave the water. 

John although the product is expensive, it's also very strong. So this method of simply putting a bit in their water is very viable and I would imagine cost effective too. I'm sure there is more to be had here at possibly a slightly stronger dose. Naturally I needed a start off point,which we are working up now and I've been fairly cautious as one would be using something I haven't before. I don't see any differing growth rates or final size of tad,but I'm sure the colour is differing,which also might imply other carotenoid benefits are being taken on by the tads given it.

Finally here are those two Atachi kids that got lost:blush:
with carotenoid









without











John,you are welcome,it's through projects like this that we have the potential to learn and move our care level upwards,the thanks are mine for involving us. My only gripe is with myself for not starting all this as early as I wanted too,but there are only so many hours in a day,it's been a mad summer. We have probably another half dozen maybe more tads to come yet so that should at least give us a ball park of any effect the algae is having. 

take care both

Stu

Did someone mention a lizard:gasp::lol2:


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Hi Stu,

point taken and understood.

Much more research is needed my end also but lets see what we can do in good time. It would just be so nice to have helped keepers cross off that annoying problem of smaller and less colourful C.B animals when compared to those that arrive as W.C. There is a reason for this and I am convinced that it is dietary.

onwards and upwards.......

John,






soundstounite said:


> G'day J,how are ya mate,thanks for the thoughts,maybe try the repashy superpig as a dust alternative?
> 
> John hey buddy. guys with this being used as I am ,it's not really as a food persay item,but obviously it's present in the water,so every time they feed etc they get some injested. Now I've tried to outline that the stage I'm photographing is a variable stage and at this time we are also low in numbers to make any serious evaluation. But for me, even with those caviats,I'm seeing a slight difference. hopefully that will be confirmed as the little fellas leave the water.
> 
> John although the product is expensive, it's also very strong. So this method of simply putting a bit in their water is very viable and I would imagine cost effective too. I'm sure there is more to be had here at possibly a slightly stronger dose. Naturally I needed a start off point,which we are working up now and I've been fairly cautious as one would be using something I haven't before. I don't see any differing growth rates or final size of tad,but I'm sure the colour is differing,which also might imply other carotenoid benefits are being taken on by the tads given it.
> 
> Finally here are those two Atachi kids that got lost:blush:
> with carotenoid
> image
> 
> without
> 
> image
> 
> 
> John,you are welcome,it's through projects like this that we have the potential to learn and move our care level upwards,the thanks are mine for involving us. My only gripe is with myself for not starting all this as early as I wanted too,but there are only so many hours in a day,it's been a mad summer. We have probably another half dozen maybe more tads to come yet so that should at least give us a ball park of any effect the algae is having.
> 
> take care both
> 
> Stu
> 
> Did someone mention a lizard:gasp::lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Hi Stu,
> 
> point taken and understood.
> 
> Much more research is needed my end also but lets see what we can do in good time. It would just be so nice to have helped keepers cross off that annoying problem of smaller and less colourful C.B animals when compared to those that arrive as W.C. There is a reason for this and I am convinced that it is dietary.
> 
> onwards and upwards.......
> 
> John,


Hey John,

yup by and large I concur. Dart guys are getting fairly close now I feel on colour and probably size in many species. Sure colour can be improved but it is getting closer I feel,for me the carotenoids are a part of this already.As you know I have been using some in various ways and have noted my thoughts,basically those conversations led us here. But we have one species that really stands out for me as not making the grade size wise tinctorious. Now you might remember I tried recently to rear some Atachi kids right out to the 2year mark,separate container per frog ,from the age they might breed until maturity. They are some stonking frogs john,but I still feel even though I really went there and tried to max both diet quantity and quality I fell short on the WC size. 

At some stage i'll need to repeat this,with the cartoenoids from the off. i'm sure diet is a primary factor John,but stoking density and size of viv/tub may well be a factor as well. But I definitely think this is worthy of more experiment/s . 

So much to learn bro,we are progressing rapidly,but there is more to be had I'm sure

take care

Stu


----------



## DrNick

Interesting read Stu/John (see, I'm posting rather than just reading!)

Don't worry too much about costs. You're ahead of the curve and costs will come down. 

E.g. Arthrospira is usually involved in any supplementation debate at some stage and it's recently been shown that its production yield can be increased 5-fold simply by using red light. There are similar findings for others and as far as I know none of the producers are yet taking advantage. 

As long as demand remains, my bet is that these products will become much more affordable pretty soon (although I obviously don't know what's in your magic potion! If it's something completely random that needs to me naturally harvested, maybe not!).

Here's to massive brightly coloured frogs!!! 

Nick


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Hi, 

Yes it is a local French Algae that has been selected to have super high levels of carotenoids. I understand that it costs 4k Euros a Kilo as a powder :-(

But At least our partners in France have exclusive availability of the compound and the formula. The Mix that we are testing uses a small portion of a few of these algae's and other natural plant material and has an inclusion of crustaceans. As such it has a high protein level. 

We are still fiddling with the mix to get it right and if all goes well we will have a useable answer next year at a guess. 

Early days still but all tests are coming back with the same indicators of palatability and early indicators of good colouration.

Next step Zoological and gutloading agent trials. 

so cross everything!

John




DrNick said:


> Interesting read Stu/John (see, I'm posting rather than just reading!)
> 
> Don't worry too much about costs. You're ahead of the curve and costs will come down.
> 
> E.g. Arthrospira is usually involved in any supplementation debate at some stage and it's recently been shown that its production yield can be increased 5-fold simply by using red light. There are similar findings for others and as far as I know none of the producers are yet taking advantage.
> 
> As long as demand remains, my bet is that these products will become much more affordable pretty soon (although I obviously don't know what's in your magic potion! If it's something completely random that needs to me naturally harvested, maybe not!).
> 
> Here's to massive brightly coloured frogs!!!
> 
> Nick


----------



## Ron Magpie

Arcadiajohn said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes it is a local French Algae that has been selected to have super high levels of carotenoids. I understand that it costs 4k Euros a Kilo as a powder :-(
> 
> But At least our partners in France have exclusive availability of the compound and the formula. The Mix that we are testing uses a small portion of a few of these algae's and other natural plant material and has an inclusion of crustaceans. As such it has a high protein level.
> 
> We are still fiddling with the mix to get it right and if all goes well we will have a useable answer next year at a guess.
> 
> Early days still but all tests are coming back with the same indicators of palatability and early indicators of good colouration.
> 
> Next step Zoological and gutloading agent trials.
> 
> so cross everything!
> 
> John


Sprog is showing some colouration- still too early to see how intense it will be. I've been trying it as a gutloader for the adults, too- no dramatice changes, but a certain amount of brightening up, I think.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Sprog is showing some colouration- still too early to see how intense it will be. I've been trying it as a gutloader for the adults, too- no dramatice changes, but a certain amount of brightening up, I think.


Nick John Ron,thanks or the thoughts guys. 

Ron can you go a bit further on how you are gutloading please,just curious on what might be applicable to the dart side:mf_dribble: Great to hear sprog's doing ok too mate:2thumb:

best

Stu


----------



## Spikebrit

Arcadiajohn said:


> Wont talk about lizards here for too long : victory:
> 
> That's the key with the formula that I am working on, you use it as part of a powerful and all natural "gutloading process"
> 
> You are right, many dislike the taste and or smell of man made supplements. By using a natural product that has 7X the available carotenoid levels and is a whole algae as a food for the feeders we bypass the issue.
> 
> The same is true for Phibs that are to be fed livefoods.
> 
> John,


Would be interesting if it does indeed remove the odour and taste commonly associate with it. This is the only issue which hasnt allowed me to use it on oter species. The chams really do colour up with it once they take it, i would love to see te results on the uroplatyus but mine wont eat anything with it on at the moment. My guess is the smell is off putting. 





soundstounite said:


> G'day J,how are ya mate,thanks for the thoughts,maybe try the repashy superpig as a dust alternative?
> 
> 
> Did someone mention a lizard:gasp::lol2:


You know you want some lizards. 

Ive got some of the superpig stuff here too. The smell is even stronger then the other stuff and very little will eat live food once it is coated in it. 

I think the superpig smells like mild indian spices, wonder what it smells like to the lizards. 

Jay


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Nick John Ron,thanks or the thoughts guys.
> 
> Ron can you go a bit further on how you are gutloading please,just curious on what might be applicable to the dart side:mf_dribble: Great to hear sprog's doing ok too mate:2thumb:
> 
> best
> 
> Stu


Ok, John will probably be appalled at my sloppy methods, though... :lol2:

What I have been doing is grinding up cooked carrot, the suppliment, vitamins and calcium in the form of Nutrobal and sometimes instant oats to bulk it out, in an old fashioned morter and pestle, to make a paste to feed to the crickets. They seem to like the taste...


----------



## soundstounite

Spikebrit said:


> Would be interesting if it does indeed remove the odour and taste commonly associate with it. This is the only issue which hasnt allowed me to use it on oter species. The chams really do colour up with it once they take it, i would love to see te results on the uroplatyus but mine wont eat anything with it on at the moment. My guess is the smell is off putting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know you want some lizards.
> 
> Ive got some of the superpig stuff here too. The smell is even stronger then the other stuff and very little will eat live food once it is coated in it.
> 
> I think the superpig smells like mild indian spices, wonder what it smells like to the lizards.
> 
> Jay


Well actually I love them Jay:Na_Na_Na_Na: I just can't possibly keep all that I would like too,hence the darts only caviat:bash:

Jay it's very interesting that the smell is what you think is off putting,I actually ran off to sniff SP,not so bad to me. But the comment stands and I am grateful for it. I believe our frogs have a good sense of smell too,but I don't know why they will take this when your lizards wont? I wonder if there might be some way to condition them,maybe gradually adding in a higher % to a more used to vit,but initially starting very low ? But then i've also gone the gut loading route too with SP. i believe we have already seen the effect of this on the RFB kids,so basically john's comments hold,ha more than one way to skin a cat:2thumb:

good luck kiddo

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Ok, John will probably be appalled at my sloppy methods, though... :lol2:
> 
> What I have been doing is grinding up cooked carrot, the suppliment, vitamins and calcium in the form of Nutrobal and sometimes instant oats to bulk it out, in an old fashioned morter and pestle, to make a paste to feed to the crickets. They seem to like the taste...


Jees don't worry about John I'm appalled,:Na_Na_Na_Na:


:lol2::lol2: I'm not at all Ron, but I wouldn't call it sloppy I'd say simple,and from there......nowt wrong with simple methods Ron!! Simple means something to build on,put another way, simple also means getting a base to work off. I'd grab being able to do the simple stuff well, over complexities, any day of the week:gasp: ha and I'd lay a bet if my frogs could talk they would say the same 

Ahh Ron,sorry for the opener,red rag to a bull that one:blush: I've concocted pretty much the most simple(sloppy if ya like:2thumb way I can start with this,it's fraught with anomolies that can tarnish results,by the same token i see no wrong what so ever trying something new in a simple way. simply put one has to start somewhere.

thanks for this mate:no1:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

I just wanted to pop this up,totally off topic,but playing cameras for a while and wanted to see if this works out.









Enjoy if it does

best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ha it did work,she's stunning huh that was the moment she rumbled me.I had to move fast too fast,but wanted some pics for my cared for mate,these help him remember what he saw.

anyway Da froshe:mf_dribble:get a load of these little rascals













more coming with relation to the caroteniod

best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Back to those carots

none


with



without



with



I think we have one more couple to go and that will be it for the moment,my guess is the carotenoids are providing a visible colour difference,it is bloody slight,but i'm seeing more than I can portray by this method,with that comes plausible other benefits. To really take this where it should go I need more space,that lack thereof prevents putting hunches into a real conclusion. Basically one needs to split the two lots the control and monitor this further,as above morphout is transitory with respect to colour. this might be feasable with a very individually patterned frogs though,where one could follow each case through for a few months after morphout. Thanks for the crack John,it's been very interesting watching all this and I really wish i could take this further and follow the two groups,but it simply is not an option. I feel there is more to be had,but am falling short because I am who I am and do what i do.

best

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> Back to those carots
> 
> none
> http://s739.photobucket.com/user/soundstounite/media/IMG_6685_zps3875d4ff.jpg.htmlimage
> 
> with
> 
> http://s739.photobucket.com/user/soundstounite/media/Da frog Room/IMG_6752_zps08862528.jpg.htmlimage
> 
> without
> 
> http://s739.photobucket.com/user/soundstounite/media/Da frog Room/IMG_6756_zpsc1c421fb.jpg.htmlimage
> 
> with
> 
> http://s739.photobucket.com/user/soundstounite/media/Da frog Room/IMG_6754_zps13d1ad46.jpg.htmlimage
> 
> I think we have one more couple to go and that will be it for the moment,my guess is the carotenoids are providing a visible colour difference,it is bloody slight,but i'm seeing more than I can portray by this method,with that comes plausible other benefits. To really take this where it should go I need more space,that lack thereof prevents putting hunches into a real conclusion. Basically one needs to split the two lots the control and monitor this further,as above morphout is transitory with respect to colour. this might be feasable with a very individually patterned frogs though,where one could follow each case through for a few months after morphout. Thanks for the crack John,it's been very interesting watching all this and I really wish i could take this further and follow the two groups,but it simply is not an option. I feel there is more to be had,but am falling short because I am who I am and do what i do.
> 
> best
> 
> Stu


It's not like I have a 'control' population anymore, but that is why I'm watching 'Sprog' so carefully- he's my last proper experiment, although I've been using the remainder of the suppliment to gut-feed my adults. He does look brighter all the time, but still nothing definite.


----------



## Arcadiajohn

I have been sent more "magic powder" : victory: so don't run out guys

Just shout

John


----------



## Vixon

Evening guys. I know it's a long long time ago in this thread but Stu's how-to on spring tail cultures... erm I've had a little issue trying it. Is the charcoal supposed to dissolve within a minute or two of being boiled? I flung it in a pot with a tumbler of boiling water, put the heat on whilst I popped up stairs to get something and by the time I came back down it was a sludge. I put it out the back garden in the hope that it will solidify as it cools but thought I'd ask whilst I am here. 

One other thing for the yeast hubby picked my up

Tesco Fast Action Dried Yeast 56G - Groceries - Tesco Groceries

as he couldn't see Allinson's. Will this do the job do you think?


----------



## soundstounite

Vixon said:


> Evening guys. I know it's a long long time ago in this thread but Stu's how-to on spring tail cultures... erm I've had a little issue trying it. Is the charcoal supposed to dissolve within a minute or two of being boiled? I flung it in a pot with a tumbler of boiling water, put the heat on whilst I popped up stairs to get something and by the time I came back down it was a sludge. I put it out the back garden in the hope that it will solidify as it cools but thought I'd ask whilst I am here.
> 
> One other thing for the yeast hubby picked my up
> 
> Tesco Fast Action Dried Yeast 56G - Groceries - Tesco Groceries
> 
> as he couldn't see Allinson's. Will this do the job do you think?


Vicky i've only ever used the allinsons,but I can't see why not,various types of yeast have been used by others,,nutrional/bakers etc,so try it and find out id the way to go,just don't use too much at once and if the culture is sealed,vent daily. Mate just a word,those little vents I'm using that Jaize sourced are working like a charm so far,it's still early days,but I can't seem to crash a culture with rediculous numbers in now like i could before,so i'm really chuffed.

Now charcoal,something is def wrong mate,I'm guessing you bought briquettes? which ever don't use it kiddo,I hope I got here quick enough. You need lumpwood charcoal...NOT easy lighting stuff either,just plain lumpwood,which is basically hardwood,burned slow,with little O2,forming solid lumps of carbon,I dread to think what's in the other stuff,don't risk it mate,it's just not worth it. Ha I won't even use the other stuff to cook on,let alone for me froggies,UGG makes the food taste of parafin.....

take care

Stu


----------



## Vixon

Thanks Stu, I will pick up some lumpwood rather than the briquettes. 

I used a little bit of the Allinsons to keep the starter culture going and they have used it all up in about 4/5 days so it seems fine. Daily venting takes seconds and is not a chore so will continue with the Tesco stuff for now at least.

And no, you weren't too late - my charcoal soup wasn't going anywhere near live animals even if they were only springs.


----------



## soundstounite

Vixon said:


> Thanks Stu, I will pick up some lumpwood rather than the briquettes.
> 
> I used a little bit of the Allinsons to keep the starter culture going and they have used it all up in about 4/5 days so it seems fine. Daily venting takes seconds and is not a chore so will continue with the Tesco stuff for now at least.
> 
> And no, you weren't too late - my charcoal soup wasn't going anywhere near live animals even if they were only springs.


Ha I'm almost useful...ok sometimes. Mate I think there is more to be had on the venting,it isn't just the time aspect,although that takes it's toll when one has many,but I'm musing whether a consistant supply of O2 is helpul to production,as opposed to,the flux of normal to high CO2 that must be a simple sealed culture normality until venting takes place

good luck mate,shout if ya need

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

Arcadiajohn said:


> I have been sent more "magic powder" : victory: so don't run out guys
> 
> Just shout
> 
> John


At the risk of sounding greedy, I may take you up on that, John- not only is Sprog finally showing some colour- only palest orange at the mo, but it's a start- but I'm also beginning to see a slow brightening of the adults. It's still all too subtle to be sure, but there *seems* to be an effect.


----------



## Arcadiajohn

No problem,

Remind me when I get back to work next week and I can send some more, no problem

I would also be interested in opening the project up further if anyone would like to take part, ideally I would like to include strawberry darts and golden mantella.

John




Ron Magpie said:


> At the risk of sounding greedy, I may take you up on that, John- not only is Sprog finally showing some colour- only palest orange at the mo, but it's a start- but I'm also beginning to see a slow brightening of the adults. It's still all too subtle to be sure, but there *seems* to be an effect.


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> No problem,
> 
> Remind me when I get back to work next week and I can send some more, no problem
> 
> I would also be interested in opening the project up further if anyone would like to take part, ideally I would like to include strawberry darts and golden mantella.
> 
> John


you'll get the last of our instalment of this stage later today hopefully John,then i'm musing using some in the bugburger we use for the pum kids. john I already use superpig at roughly 5% would you have a recomendation for a quantity using this method? John there is another facet here that might show a result, i'm very interested to see what effect if any this might have on the redheads,if the next batch do morphout ok I'll try them on this. I don't yet have a single kid with a really vibrant red head,now this may well be genetic,talking to various breeders gives me that hunch, or even age related,so if there is a change in that ,then that would probably be a clear indicator of the product having an effect. I would say the bugburger plus superpig is having som effect,though ,but it's hellish difficult to qualify,I'm seeing a colour shift in the adults,but I don't know what the parameters are for the red head to develop.This might well be a colour shift that happens with age as above,in some individuals. I have seen young carrying red all over in some rare cases,so I think there might be several factors at play,but if my kids suddenly started throwing red,for me it would be a pretty clear indicator,given what we have seen so far

Keep pushing Ron,these things may well be slow or rather take time to show, maybe an accumulated effect?

best both

Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy

Arcadiajohn said:


> No problem,
> 
> Remind me when I get back to work next week and I can send some more, no problem
> 
> I would also be interested in opening the project up further if anyone would like to take part, ideally I would like to include strawberry darts and golden mantella.
> 
> John


I can have a go with the retics the red on them is stunning if I can get this more striking Im up for it


----------



## Arcadiajohn

I agree, it's a dietary process that will need to be balanced and maintained.

There is no 5 min "colour up" but a natural process of ingestion, assimilation and usage.

I feel that it is a long term solution that on paper "should" work very well.

Being plant based it should be a very natural process. As you know I'm VERY into wild re-creation. 

Even with colour feeding canaries you start in the moult before and maintain the foes to get the feather colour. The same applies to natural red birds in captivity. 

I have kept Zanzibar red bishops in years gone, they arrive vibrant but the colour goes very quick. No one seemed to put two and two together and recommend colour feeding them.

I can testify first hand that a diet that is supplemented in carotenoids has a positive impact on maintaining wild colours in cage birds in many species. There is no reason why this should not apply to reptiles and amphibs also.

I have new experimented on natural yellow birds. By using a diet with natural carotenoids I now have the most vibrant serrinous mozambicus that I have ever had!! And I've had a lot

John


----------



## Ron Magpie

I can't swear that it is a drastic change, as yet- but as I mentioned, Sprog has a definite (although still pale) orange cast, whereas the last spawning all turned out yellow. I hadn't actaully noticed the improvement in colouration in the adults till recently, and so far, it's not dramatic, but it seems to be happening. And yes, John, if you are still willing to carry this on, I am, so if you can, bung me some more.


----------



## Ron Magpie

One thing I have noticed is that crickets really seem to like the taste- with fish flake etc there is usually some left by the time the tub is finished- but not with this.


----------



## soundstounite

last two:
with carotenoid









without










A little RFb kid for fun










take care

stu


----------



## phelsumaman

Stu. Im going to change the subject completely as is usual for your thread. 

Tesoros de columbia have some blackfoot terribilis available via dendroworld.fr 









Hoping to see a few more people order these to support a wonderful cause
Ben


----------



## soundstounite

phelsumaman said:


> Stu. Im going to change the subject completely as is usual for your thread.
> 
> Tesoros de columbia have some blackfoot terribilis available via dendroworld.fr
> image
> 
> Hoping to see a few more people order these to support a wonderful cause
> Ben


Brilliant,Ben thanks so much:notworthy:,I really appreciate the post buddy. I'm hoping there will be more news soon to follow this,plus shortly i'm hoping to post a very special thanks here,but a bit early yet. 

Ben this project is so special ha the frogs aren't bad either,it's cool that a few of our hobby have donated and that option is till available,or buying merchandise,which again helps a bit. But buying genuinely sustainable, legit, Colombian frogs has to be what this is all about. Thanks for bringing this back up to the top,Ben, especially with Hamm around the corner.

Awesome

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

I don't think many of us have seen this before,now he's the one surviving from our first clutch and I seriously want this,but first clutches can be variable in how they do,so it's all just hope now. But what a thing,a little summersi tad already starting to show colour and not even any signs of back legs plus an arrow on it's head to show it which way it's meant to swim,cool huh. I would ask that if anyone has a banded imi tad that they have a pic of at a similar age,could you post please.










best

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Man two posts on the same subject,spoilt huh?

Our second clutch of summersi eggs,which is massive after the two year wait,it means the new guys are not just breeding because they have recently been moved,one clutch oft follows a move:the worlds gonna end,keep those genes flowing,so pics are taken every few days,when i get more time I'll nail a day by day appraisal,but for now:





























take care

Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

wow, just wow!

John





soundstounite said:


> Man two posts on the same subject,spoilt huh?
> 
> Our second clutch of summersi eggs,which is massive after the two year wait,it means the new guys are not just breeding because they have recently been moved,one clutch oft follows a move:the worlds gonna end,keep those genes flowing,so pics are taken every few days,when i get more time I'll nail a day by day appraisal,but for now:
> 
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> take care
> 
> Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Hey john after this long it is wow,bloody stoked bro. john look at the pic,I knew it before it happened,but i'm going to highlight this for the next guy. bottom tad RHS isn't right. The other 5 hatched yesterday,but that one didn't make it . As always this is about learning not only from success ,but also from my failings. For me watching the tads and being aware of something,different,at the first available chance ,gives one more time to react. If that egg had died earlier,then the ability to see that and remove might just help the others.

Guys,as much or little as I know, alot of the time gut instinct leads me. I am leaning more and more to that hot spell at the end of july,being a player, in why the others didn't do so well,more than just first clutch issues. Now I have thermometers scattered about,sure one monitoring these "special " clutches, none said anything was out of order,but that gut instinct is still saying

HEAT HEAT HEAT:bash::bash:.

We will see how things go for this next one,sure i might be wrong and these might not do well either,but on a frog that is so uncommon here,i think it's worth throwing a bit of time outlining thoughts,be it failure or success,the big picture is always how we can move forwards. What we can learn together

seeya

Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie

Stu, as you know, I think it was that hot spell that did for almost all my FBT tads- it goes to show that there are so many variables in play every time.


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Stu, as you know, I think it was that hot spell that did for almost all my FBT tads- it goes to show that there are so many variables in play every time.


Ha us and our variables buddy:lol2:. It's proper strange though Ron,I've got lots of the cheep thermometers dotted about the room,I can just look around and get a pretty good picture of what's going on,all told the same story:that although it was seriously hot outside, the room was in the ball park,but my guts are still nagging me. I dunno mate,I'm just hoping we do better this time,it is still early days though,they are only kids,after all. I shouldn't expect too much really,but you know how it is, I have to nail this one now. 

Ron,I've also posted pics stateside,i'm hoping a breeder might be able to shed some light on the early colour. One of my mates here,cracking rani breeder with much more nouce than I regarding this Genus has also picked up on the colour. I know rani colour earlier than the dendros Ron,but this soon with not even back legs showing has him concerned too. It might just be a summersi characteristic though,I'd love to know though. But had no replies so far. 

Take care mate hope sprog is well,he must be a strong little chap,if you are right,I hope things work out mate

best

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

sorry Stu, ironically after a week in which we had a convo about bombardment over methods used in rock making lol....erm, just looking at some of your vivs and just something for me brain to get round, when you make rather bigger slices of the polystyrene, do you silicone it to the glass and then rockoflex and epoxy over this ? i seen you silicone a piece down and do this, was just checking in on this being okay ? i was thinking as you know of making a fair chunk of polystyrene rock background and some on the base. would it be better to make most of this outside of the viv and then put together inside so that its sealed with rocko and epoxy all round ? cheers bruda


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> sorry Stu, ironically after a week in which we had a convo about bombardment over methods used in rock making lol....erm, just looking at some of your vivs and just something for me brain to get round, when you make rather bigger slices of the polystyrene, do you silicone it to the glass and then rockoflex and epoxy over this ? i seen you silicone a piece down and do this, was just checking in on this being okay ? i was thinking as you know of making a fair chunk of polystyrene rock background and some on the base. would it be better to make most of this outside of the viv and then put together inside so that its sealed with rocko and epoxy all round ? cheers bruda


 Dude,I'll go a long way to help folks like you,ok especially you,so tough I ain't telling:Na_Na_Na_Na::Na_Na_Na_Na::Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:

LMAO,Joe everything rockwise is made out of the viv, DON'T !!!!! even try to do this insitu mate,too much of a fiddle by far:bash::bash: !! That's why I use the cork surround Joe,the rockwork even if it is a whole side is always going to be smaller then the actual viv side. which means I can always fit it in there. joe I know I make my vivs and build out before finishing the top and doors,but this exact method will make life easy for a guy whom has bought a viv which is complete. 

Mate I cut a rebate where the rockwork overlaps the cork. This rebate is the exact thickness of the cork and means there is absolutely no space or gap where a froggy could get stuck or squeeze behind the rocks. Do this early on if you are building a whole panel out mate,make sure it completely overlaps the cork surround, first then do the carving. It's best to know everything fits from the off. Be careful while building,this rebate can be quite thin and hence delicate,be particularly careful when you are on the heat gun stage it's all to easy to blow a hole where you don't want one !!!!!!

If you do happen to mess up mate and blow a hole somewhere,I use a bit of something like net curtain and silicone this on the back of the hole,let that set for a day,then sculpt some more silicone into shape to hide the hole from the front, don't just try to blob something over the hole,it is nowhere near as easy as the above.
Use soaked bits of softwood,carved into a chisel shape to work the silicone,once the tools(bits of thin wood like beading) have been soaked for a few days they won't stick to the silicone. :2thumb:

That got ya sorted bro?

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

yeah i had noticed you put a section of cork at the top and then filed the under with the polystyrene. silicone will stick epoxied 'rock' to the glass of the viv then yeah ? sorry, after my wonderful plastidip escapade i love to double check lol

here's a side view of my understanding of your method, using my favourite tool, paint lol


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> yeah i had noticed you put a section of cork at the top and then filed the under with the polystyrene. silicone will stick epoxied 'rock' to the glass of the viv then yeah ? sorry, after my wonderful plastidip escapade i love to double check lol
> 
> here's a side view of my understanding of your method, using my favourite tool, paint lol
> 
> image


Got it bro: victory: Well done mate for anyone to understand my ramblings is bloody brilliant

Joe obviously that rebate and the cork run in front of the rockwork,so the front edge has the same profile as the side does. The second thing to be aware of is I only coat the front,the bare poly is what is siliconed to the glass.

Ok so we are good so far,silicone all the back "edges",by this I mean the poly at the back which is still in the same profile as original and in fill with diagonal lines,does that make sense mate? Then run a line around the corner of the rebate to grab that to the cork edge corner,then one final bead of silicone around the actual edge of the rockwork,where it overlaps the cork. This is basically a 3 fold whammy to stop a frog getting behind the rockwork(who me thorough nah:Na_Na_Na_Na,plus making sure the bugger stays in place. Joe make all beads of silicone deep,so they sit up off the poly. Thus when one pushes the rocks home, all that silicone will come into contact with glass/cork and squash and grab. Finish all edges with eocearth but use da soppy wood tools to tidy up any squidged silicone first.

If there is more ask bro we'll keep coming back until you are happy

bring it on


Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

hey stu, here's another pic, the silicone is the yellow/oranje











p.s found another cool brom shop on ebay and these


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> hey stu, here's another pic, the silicone is the yellow/oranje
> 
> image
> 
> 
> p.s found another cool brom shop on ebay and these
> 
> image


I need to build walk in vivs!!!!:mf_dribble: Ahh mate to have zoo type enclosures,build out a big rock face and have THOSE broms:whistling2:

Joe nearly,silicone only diagonals on back,not cross hatch.

Where the rebate is it will appear as 3 lines of silicone running around the edge/outside,not one,does that make better sense? 

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

yeah i just did that for illustrational purposes the silicone would run behind the styrene and glue against glass etc

i know mate, i'm even thinking about getting a bigger viv made for the mysties lol god dammit wish my mind would stop talking to me sometimes lol


----------



## plasma234

Do you use 12% uvb above your mysties? I want to put a UV tube over the mesh on mine, it's only 50high. I was thinking a 10% or 12% to get quite a high index as they live high altitude on cliff faces :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

plasma234 said:


> Do you use 12% uvb above your mysties? I want to put a UV tube over the mesh on mine, it's only 50high. I was thinking a 10% or 12% to get quite a high index as they live high altitude on cliff faces :2thumb:


Only 6% Calz,but I'm sure there is room for more, I don't see basking as such. Calz you are spot on with the altitude,this was why I had the arcadia 6% over tads,I figured they must get more UVB than other frogs we keep,because of where they live. From what I can gather though the big broms are crucial to them being able to live where they do,essentially creating a micro niche habitat.The area is low, humidity wise mate,around 40%. So I think that to a certain extent the broms give both shade and higher humidity. It's incredibly difficult reading all this stuff, and putting it in to practice though,without going there and observing,what they actually do.

best

Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

"wild re-creation" Stu, its the most important thing to me and ALL of our products fall into this theory.

As such it is VITAL that you do go out and see Ivan and write a book on your findings  its pure science you know : victory: 

john





soundstounite said:


> Only 6% Calz,but I'm sure there is room for more, I don't see basking as such. Calz you are spot on with the altitude,this was why I had the arcadia 6% over tads,I figured they must get more UVB than other frogs we keep,because of where they live. From what I can gather though the big broms are crucial to them being able to live where they do,essentially creating a micro niche habitat.The area is low, humidity wise mate,around 40%. So I think that to a certain extent the broms give both shade and higher humidity. It's incredibly difficult reading all this stuff, and putting it in to practice though,without going there and observing,what they actually do.
> 
> best
> 
> Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> "wild re-creation" Stu, its the most important thing to me and ALL of our products fall into this theory.
> 
> As such it is VITAL that you do go out and see Ivan and write a book on your findings  its pure science you know : victory:
> 
> john


Amen ^^^^

Ha I'd love that John,mind you guys would have a hell of a job getting me to come back:mf_dribble: Maybe one day John,I couldn't even get over to Hamm to meet Ivan earlier this year,that would have been amazing for me,but to actually experience wild frogs,would be a complete dream.

Guys back to our little collection for a mo. Two very speical tiny things.

First up a tiny red basti,ootw a few days,special,well it's the first frogs from our second group to make it thus far. even more special because we raised his dad ,so the long road towards having two groups of cemetery bastis largely unrelated is a step closer. It's amazing just how long this all takes and how many pums we have kept back(these and the rfb) to try and do what we can with these two morphs...happy days



To follow that one summersi tad,hopes are high now legs look good another very long term kept species getting closer daily to success,damn me how long have we waited for this one



bring it on

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Wow,Sorry guys my huge apologies, I thought I reported the loss of our first summersi tad the during the night he morphed out,ahh man he even went up to roost,I did elsewhere but was utterly sure I had here too. A real heartbreaker for a few hours but the first on a frog that we have tried to breed for 3 years now is going to be just that isn't it,just so damn close. I can't believe I didn't tell you lot

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

I'm actually trying to post up a couple of pics and feeling my way a bit,might need help,but will do it the hard way first,this is how I learn.

nowt to do with frogs though just the amazing stuff here in blighty that rocks my world every now and again



















ha got it

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

wow bambi got nowt cold buggers:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Hmm maybe these two might garner interest,if not well life on da web huh,:mf_dribble::lol2:

Very quick snaps crap focus just grabbing the moment really not going to mess with them at this stage. Already they have clocked dinnertime. Every time this happens it is as bewildering as the first time,they are so tiny,but the fact that they get who dumps in the food and start to appear within days of leaving the broms I find just plain perplexing



















seeya

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

lovely to see as always stu


----------



## plasma234

me and joe will both agree, having seen these in the flesh they are true little crackers..


----------



## Ron Magpie

Had to do some speed-reading to catch up! :lol2:

Sorry guys, been really busy with work (mental) and moderating *two* Faceache groups, so I haven't spent a lot of time on here. Stu, I know it seems like 'two steps forward, three steps back' sometimes- but you are seriously learning and sharing stuff that practically no-one else knows, in this country, at least. All of this is adding to the body of knowledge, and it's hands-on stuff, which is the best! :2thumb:


----------



## natopecker

Long time obeserver of this thread, keep up the good work. Always like coming on and seing what is going on.

Think someone needs to go through and break this thread down into little sub threads with all the info in.

Even just reading the bits about the rock making is great to read/learn.

Still sure I want darts, now life is settling down and I have my own house certainly being tempted.


----------



## soundstounite

plasma234 said:


> me and joe will both agree, having seen these in the flesh they are true little crackers..


Joe Calz hope you are both good ,thanks lads:no1: all the luck with your respective spotty thangs:gasp: Hmm:blush: erm mysties folks,they haven't got a disease as such,hmm maybe they have actually:gasp:

cheers both best not go further digging a hole here for myself:lol2:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Had to do some speed-reading to catch up! :lol2:
> 
> Sorry guys, been really busy with work (mental) and moderating *two* Faceache groups, so I haven't spent a lot of time on here. Stu, I know it seems like 'two steps forward, three steps back' sometimes- but you are seriously learning and sharing stuff that practically no-one else knows, in this country, at least. All of this is adding to the body of knowledge, and it's hands-on stuff, which is the best! :2thumb:


Speed reading mental here too bro i've barely posted:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:

Ron:no1: how the devil are ya mate hope things are good I miss ya little inputs mate. It's the passion bro,it get's the better of me at times,but I can't loose that, sure one feels the lows and they hurt,but the highs are fantastic kiddo. This last one was exstatic to crushed in hours,but hey I have more coming enough that I'm no longer counting,we will see a summersi kid grow up here in blighty buddy. I'll never say when ,but by god try and stop me:lol2:. I'm watching it happen just time mate.

Ron I just listed what we have bred and keep to a friend ,as i wrote it dawned on me: we haven't bred macheto once we bag summersi that's it mate. I'm pretty sure we have two female macheto so it's hard to be other than amazed huh,ha a proper WTF moment for this beginner:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:

Idunno about the kind words Ron. Calz has just popped by,he built Shaz and I a new computer, and muttered "you have to be able to keep helping folks dude",it's all perplexing. I will never cease to be completely amazed by such kindness, damn there are some cool kind folks in the phib world mate. I think we have been lucky tis all!! We really have so much to learn and so many (like Glenn et al) have helped us get here. Those guys should have this kindness,not moi. 

Thanks again bro hope things are ace for ya.... two faceaches is hard core mate:whistling2:,you best sink a bottle or two,I hope a therapist isn't needed:mf_dribble:

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

natopecker said:


> Long time obeserver of this thread, keep up the good work. Always like coming on and seing what is going on.
> 
> Think someone needs to go through and break this thread down into little sub threads with all the info in.
> 
> Even just reading the bits about the rock making is great to read/learn.
> 
> Still sure I want darts, now life is settling down and I have my own house certainly being tempted.


Hey buddy,what's your name please?

Sorry I didn't reply last night ran out of time,thank you for the kind words. 

This morass wasn't really envisaged kiddo,I guess never having been on a forum before It didn't occur to me to take the multi thread option. It seemed more logical to bash it all down in one place,but yup it's a pita finding what you want to refer back to. Using the search function helps a bit though,but sure, I wish I could have indexed all this to make life easier for folks.

Anyway here we are and the best wishes follow for ou and your frogs when the time comes,as always clobber the food culturing first,cheep start and the skills learnt without pressure will never be wasted .

Some notes about summersi :

Guys the next 3 tads are doing well,we have 3 out of 4 that grew on ,we lost one. With reference to the early colour of the first tad,which a close friend and more knowledgeable rani breeder mentioned to me he hadn't seen at that stage,it seems to be characteristic of this species. All 3 are now showing the little arrow just back from the nose and a touch of gold above the eyes,without even showing back legs yet. The frequency of eggs laid is increasing,I cannot confirm two females in viv yet,or whether the frequency of lows now hitting us is in part responsible for this.Naturally young frogs could start slow and then increase production anyway,but my guts lead me to the former. It also seems the vigour of embryos is increasing hatches are pretty damn good anyway ,so this one is difficult to qualify.But the last 5 seem off to a great strong start. Of note apart from the one duff clutch fetility is standing close to 100% Egg numbers in clutch seem to be fairly consistent 4, 5 or 6. 6 being most common,but I wonder if the two 4's are either caused by a more frequent clutch spacing,or maybe indicate a second lass? Who knows? So far all eggs are found in exactly the same front facing film can,although maybe some have been laid in the LL,but no tads as of yet carried. I'm quite surprised by clutch size to be honest, 6 seems alot for a tiny thing,but then again they are one of the bigger ranitomeya species to maybe I should have expected this.

bring it on

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Oh one last thing,Jaize kindly got us some of these to use as a vent for springtail cultures,I site them near the bottom,CO2 being heavier than air,one per tub. Since using them I haven't had one CO2 related crash ,which is always in a banging rediculously populated culture,thanks mate got a winner here!!!!

Seem expensive but at 50p a tub a bloody bargain and a godsend as they have lifted the pressure from me to open each and every culture every other day: victory:

ORCHID FLASKS FILTERS 0.2 µm PORE PACK OF 20 SELF ADHESIVE AUTOCLAVABLE | eBay

Stu


----------



## soundstounite

More rfb kids most of you haven't yet seen. A special project slowly but surely getting there,feast ya eyes on these little corkers. Shaz and I are fairly determined that these frogs will be in the uk for a long time,without a need to take many more from bastimentos. It's a slow old road this one,none will leave here until we have got what we need,then we will start to help all the guys whom got male frogs if w can.





































seeya

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

they'll look nice at the top of my stack:lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> they'll look nice at the top of my stack:lol2:


and mine:whistling2:

Don't show Paula dude,she'll kill me for 'em...too late:gasp:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

i showed her a pic of Huw's cristo's aswell, gorgeous examples there, pums are way in the future, now to build it first lol


----------



## soundstounite

Yup agree mate Huw's pics show some damn nice pums:2thumb:

Humbugs:




























These were just going in to QT,so just quick snaps at this time. this particular morph of this frog the highland serensis(reclassified by Twormy and Browne in their "Revision of Ranitomeya" from the oft used name still lamasi) is now, sadly, incredibly rare in the wild. A morph of a species that really need us to keep, breed and do all we can to sustain this in captivity. We have two differnt lines 2 of each 4 in total. I'm really hoping we can get them going once they grow up. We are really chuffed to final have them here,a frog that was actually on our very first wish list,which we wrote up as we started planning out the room. Of note is the incredible price difference between these here and across the pond. Said to prefer somewhat cooler conditions due to the elevated position they occupy in the wild. Frequenting bamboo stands which are used for depo sites,they are said to be faculative egg feeders. I can't yet find conclusive proof of this,although some of the top Rani guys I know have told us that they only rarely egg feed in captivity. I'd very very grateful if anyone can give me more info regarding this.

So far they are not too flighty utterly enchanting to watch feeding,they will probably be one of the last rani we keep,I have my eye on one other morph now of imitator.

So to sum up; if these little guys appeal a really worth while frog to add to your collection,the more of these kept the better.

bring it on

Stu


----------



## frogman955

Haha they`re close Stu.









Nice little frogs though.


Mike


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Hi Stu,

these are stunning!

Looking forward to seeing more of them 

john


----------



## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Hi Stu,
> 
> these are stunning!
> 
> Looking forward to seeing more of them
> 
> john


John,my friend,
you often wax lyrical on what we can do to drive our hobby towards CB,I love those sentiments,well you know this,but the real big picture is simply this.

CITIES does not recogonise a morph of a species,just a species to be in peril. So this,us,our hobby,may well be the last bastiens,the last keepers,THE custodians,of this particular morph of this particular frog for the planet, full stop !!

John this is simple, if my hobby doesn't get this right,and no one can point me towards a dedicated breeding programme I have missed,then you will be seeing pics of a dinosaur here. Serensis, lamasi, may well survive,but these morphs thereof have no one. Oh and this may well be our bag to carry,my hobby might be part of all this,it is a might when one is on the otherside of the world. 

But, nonetheless, I can't live with doing nowt and would encourage my brethren to help. It's singularly important that no tiny frog leaves our planet for ever,we have lost too much already

belucky mate

Stu


----------



## Arcadiajohn

you are 100% right Stu,

I wish you well with them!

John


----------



## wilko92

Stu, looking great as ever! the attention to detail and time you spend on these guys is just fantastic! hope all is well your end! keep up the good work! :2thumb:


----------



## soundstounite

wilko92 said:


> Stu, looking great as ever! the attention to detail and time you spend on these guys is just fantastic! hope all is well your end! keep up the good work! :2thumb:


A monster rolla coaster here mate,so I guess surviving the storm best depicts us at the mo. But bro so lovely to hear from ya,I've popped some stuff on you're thread.

Thanks as always for the words man,never think they are deserved though,so always a surprise !!

Thanks bro proper lovely to hear from you again

be lucky mate

Stu


----------



## plasma234

Gorgeous frogs added to the collection!




Thought I would add on that the mysties are going great, I swear they were basking under the UV earlier. I was meant to message you sooner, but unfortunately the seasonal period and retail means being rushed like feck at work and then being absolutely knackered when I get home :devil:


Great work Stu man, keep it up. I hope the new guys do great for you! :no1:


P.s. 

That rub you sent me home with is now making a great home for 4 well grown on pum froglets. I owe you your rub back and the polybox :blush:


----------



## soundstounite

plasma234 said:


> Gorgeous frogs added to the collection!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thought I would add on that the mysties are going great, I swear they were basking under the UV earlier. I was meant to message you sooner, but unfortunately the seasonal period and retail means being rushed like feck at work and then being absolutely knackered when I get home :devil:
> 
> 
> Great work Stu man, keep it up. I hope the new guys do great for you! :no1:
> 
> 
> P.s.
> 
> That rub you sent me home with is now making a great home for 4 well grown on pum froglets. I owe you your rub back and the polybox :blush:



Ha great stuff on the pums Calz,that's what I want to hear. Mate as most of you know I'll never be completely happy about the tubs,but by god aren't they useful,such an easy way to cope with tiny things that appear and need space. I'm sure we all suffer from the same lack of viv space.This is the easy cheep option that is always worth having set up. 

Our two little RFB doing great mate,the little red cem basti kid is growing like a damn weed,never seen a pum grow so fast. He is never fat though,growing too quick I guess.

Humbugs are good so far mate,one little guy has us sussed, already, amazingly bold for something so small.

No worries on the contact mate,it's insane this last six weeks,i'm equally guilty

Wonderful to hear about the spotty guys mate,somehow I've managed to get some kids in the water man the summersi tads are the same size at hatch,beggers belief really. Great note on the basking too kiddo,i'm sure you are on track with this.

The summersi laid a clutch of 8 Calz,just after the ones that were carried,can't believe it:gasp:. We are very close now for the next to morph,but his sibling is way behind. I still feel I'm missing something with this particular species and it's rearing as viability is nowhere near what we normally get,but I guess I have to be patient,these are still early clutches we are dealing with,maybe the next to morph is only the second or 3rd they laid.


Finally Shaz's birthday today,ooorrraaa,she still amazes me how she keeps pushing with the frogs,none of this would be possible without her amazing care and set of eyes,that see more than she'll ever realize

take care mate

Stu


----------



## frogfreak

Happy birthday, Shaz!! :cheers:


----------



## soundstounite

frogfreak said:


> Happy birthday, Shaz!! :cheers:


Cheers bro,she say thanks very much. Getting silly Glenn,I can believe she has just taken our combined age over 100,how could she do that to me???:gasp:

thanks mate

Stu


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## soundstounite

Happy chrimbo all,sorry belated,all is bonkers mental here. 

Ha spotted a brand new redhead kid an hour or so back,and we are within a day or two now of a summersi exciting the water. This time although he has been out a couple of times,ha has stayed put in the water while nearly all the tail has been absorbed. I so hope he does this time,pics from a few days back



















Way back I talked with some of you about the early marking/colour showing on the head,this must be a summersi characteristic,I'm seeing it on each and every tad,once they get old enough. Production is surprising me now, the odds of winning finally with this enchanting frog are stacking ever in our favour. Oh the new lass,is properly settled with my old male,it's such a joy after loosing the female to see him back with company. I can't confirm sex yet naturally,but the spend alot of time together and possibly saw early courtship the other day. The icing on the cake is she must be gaining confidence from being with him,it's fabulous as she is now far bolder than the others,from last spring.Just so lovely seeing this pair come out to nail some springs together

belucky guys,have the best new year

Stu


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## Meefloaf

this is a beautiful pic mate


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## PigeonYouDead

Wow, I feel like I have missed so much... Been working loads and loads lately, and settling into our new pad has taken a long time as we had to buy furniture and so on!

Our tank is being a stubborn little :censor: and taking FOREVER to grow. The Parlour palm and brom are doing great, (ie- not dead yet hah) but the moss... oh my god it is doing my head in. Plus my pump has packed up *RAGE* so the epiweb back wall is no longer a nice wet drip system. I'm going to be picking up some more plants to plant it out more heavily, and I wonder if I need to reassess the lighting I have on there as well to encourage the plants a little more... I don't know. If I can summon the willpower I may get another pump too; but unfortunately, the current pump is wired through the tank so a - getting it out is going to be a pain, and b - not possible to wire the new one in, so we need to arrange a hole for the cable. We're in no rush to get the froggies because we want the tank to be perfect before they move in.

On the flip side, we're doing really well. Currently have about 4-6" of snow on the ground, the dog is either playing out in the snow, or sleeping in the sun rays in the front room. My lizard is still doing amazingly and the cancerous tumour hasn't reappeared as yet, and since we've moved we've acquired a leachie, a praying mantis and two millipedes as well.

Hope everyone had a great christmas!

Lindsay & Mark


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## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> this is a beautiful pic mate


Which one bro:lol2:?

HNY

Stu


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## soundstounite

PigeonYouDead said:


> Wow, I feel like I have missed so much... Been working loads and loads lately, and settling into our new pad has taken a long time as we had to buy furniture and so on!
> 
> Our tank is being a stubborn little :censor: and taking FOREVER to grow. The Parlour palm and brom are doing great, (ie- not dead yet hah) but the moss... oh my god it is doing my head in. Plus my pump has packed up *RAGE* so the epiweb back wall is no longer a nice wet drip system. I'm going to be picking up some more plants to plant it out more heavily, and I wonder if I need to reassess the lighting I have on there as well to encourage the plants a little more... I don't know. If I can summon the willpower I may get another pump too; but unfortunately, the current pump is wired through the tank so a - getting it out is going to be a pain, and b - not possible to wire the new one in, so we need to arrange a hole for the cable. We're in no rush to get the froggies because we want the tank to be perfect before they move in.
> 
> On the flip side, we're doing really well. Currently have about 4-6" of snow on the ground, the dog is either playing out in the snow, or sleeping in the sun rays in the front room. My lizard is still doing amazingly and the cancerous tumour hasn't reappeared as yet, and since we've moved we've acquired a leachie, a praying mantis and two millipedes as well.
> 
> Hope everyone had a great christmas!
> 
> Lindsay & Mark


Linds life's a bi-atch,she don't always make things easy for us,just hang in there kiddo,it turns around,said the Stu pid optimist.

Linds I'm proper battered just threw our chrimbo away,for work felt me cared for guy needed watching,by someone that knows him. But I needed this break,Head down yeah get on with it,free lurgie too for good measure.

Then these little frogs bang one thing after another after another at us.3 new redheads, a new RFB kid ,a new summs tad that possibly means 2 females,plus our first summersi kid hits land and is bouncing around like a seriously rapid tiny thing,my god he is fast.Can't believe it ,but know the crack life can be a bitch ,but she also throws some real cool stuff back. Head down mate,sort that pump,or find another way,but don't stop,nowt comes back when one does:2thumb:

Have the best new year both

Stu


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## Meefloaf

i saw new rfb kid and switched off :mf_dribble::lol2:

stu, posted a few pics of so far auratus build in my thread. anyway, two questions, theres a piece of bogwood i intend to have in the wall, now i intend to fill it in with expanding foam behind it, should i soak and bake first ? also when it comes to the rockoflex time, is it okay to rocko and epoxy over the edge where wood joins or should i work a way of removing it and rockoflex/epoxy where the wood is to be placed. also, rockdust, i've seen it being sold online but as a mineral for soil but described as rockdust from quarries in the process of smashing rocks and folks use it in their soils etc as natural fert


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> i saw new rfb kid and switched off :mf_dribble::lol2:
> 
> stu, posted a few pics of so far auratus build in my thread. anyway, two questions, theres a piece of bogwood i intend to have in the wall, now i intend to fill it in with expanding foam behind it, should i soak and bake first ? also when it comes to the rockoflex time, is it okay to rocko and epoxy over the edge where wood joins or should i work a way of removing it and rockoflex/epoxy where the wood is to be placed. also, rockdust, i've seen it being sold online but as a mineral for soil but described as rockdust from quarries in the process of smashing rocks and folks use it in their soils etc as natural fert


Joe dependent on the fiddle factor,ie how much time I will have to work,or how difficult it might be to get a clean edge,I'll mask the wood off,if needed,then work away from it,with both the rocko and epoxy,naturally as separate stages,masking removed in both cases.

Smear silicone the glass first,behind the wood,let dry/cure. If you want to bake the wood your choice,but certainly I would have the wood damn where the foam will grab,providing the foam cures via humidity that is and is not a two pack type. The wood must be secured while the foam cures,you might of course be going to just lie the viv on its back/side,wood in place. the damp wood should provide a better grab than dry plus will help foam cure properly.

Caviat,many types of foam,no details of weight of wood,or holding capacity of foam,be careful kiddo some of these hardwoods are very dense,I wouldn't want that bit of wood falling through the bottom of viv!! So that is how I would roll buddy,but I can't give a 100% that the wood will stay in place. I guess I would work off the weight of wood,research the particular foam,get as much info from makers thereof,possibly even take tools to the wood,hollow out the back reduce weight where no one would ever see,things like that,just be careful kiddo. Sure I think it's unlikely to go wrong,but i'm a slow cautious old sod,I still make plenty of mistakes kiddo,but not wuite so many as I would if I wasn't on the cautious side. PM me re dust bro

Here buddy,show this if it works to Paula,we've been playing pics a bit of late, ok grantedprogress is very slow:bash::lol2::lol2: But, progress is being made,me thinks. waddayathink??

Muntjac:


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## Meefloaf

Cheers stu, the wood is quite light and as you know me going to be placed in such a way to not cause the background any weight issues, its going to be leaning floor to side panel. just making sure if i should foam the wood in place and then cover the foam that the wood would be touching aka not the background but the foam attached to it directly.

that is a beautiful pic Stu, and a beautiful animal, are they wild round your way ?


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## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> Cheers stu, the wood is quite light and as you know me going to be placed in such a way to not cause the background any weight issues, its going to be leaning floor to side panel. just making sure if i should foam the wood in place and then cover the foam that the wood would be touching aka not the background but the foam attached to it directly.
> 
> that is a beautiful pic Stu, and a beautiful animal, are they wild round your way ?


Joe I've always used the foam as part of the fixing (gluing) process,so no I've never covered the foam backing on to the wood.

You are looking at a non native(possibly invasive) species of wild deer mate. Muntjac would be the most common tern used I guess,Reeve's Muntjac,possibly more accurate. I suspect this is a young buck, Joe. The V shaped,dark head markings indicate male,female should be more diamond shaped.Male tusks are lacking,though,plus this fella was accompanied by an obviously younger deer,so not being an expert,I'm not 100% sure. You might actually see them down there bro,they have pretty much colonised the south of our country. But the depths of the southwest,I'm not sure on. I have seen Roe down your way mate,plus some stunning red stage,just inside cornwall . Brought in from china,Muntjac,somewhere in the 1800's,woburn possibly the initial site from which they escaped,might be wrong there,though. I see them all around us buddy very close to here, I've watched them from the frogroom window close.

Ha I'm stoked with the pic mate,I have been wanting to document some of what Shaz and I( and sometimes my cared for guy) actually see for a long time now. Sure I'm already doing this, go back to wild boar. But let's face it how many of us have actually seen a young Roe fawn feeding from mum,just hours old,still wobbly on leg etc etc. 

But I haven't had the tools to get the quality of image I desire. The fallow pics a bit back show all this. I've been hunting a new lens for yonks mate,been messed about properly,missed a complete bargain ,'cause I was grafting out of hours to save a guy's life, But finally I got there!! That is part of why this image is special,it's the first time I measured up,got my bit right,to the best I have. Plus the gear works,no small deal when buying second hand. 
Happy days mate, can't believe we are finally here. Flick back to those fallow Joe look hard,now come back and study this one,ok will never be enough kiddo

Might have said this before,but both you guys have the best new year mate,so deserved!!

Stu


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## Meefloaf

chers mate, you and Shaz too, much love from me and Paula who cant wait to catch up in april if not before.

it's always nice to finally get to the place you were aiming for, the journey's usually rough, and not always fun, but it makes the end result that bit more special, chuffed for ya fella 

Joe and Paula


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## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> chers mate, you and Shaz too, much love from me and Paula who cant wait to catch up in april if not before.
> 
> it's always nice to finally get to the place you were aiming for, the journey's usually rough, and not always fun, but it makes the end result that bit more special, chuffed for ya fella
> 
> Joe and Paula


Bro the journey is all, it doesn't matter how far we get,tis how hard we try I'll never be there mate,getting nearer is a monster though,ha ha rock 'n' roll: victory:. Def april,before is cool

Small updaye:
Little summs strong as an ox so far,my god he's fast!!!

Three little histos all good,one left brom yesterday,contemplating leaving in viv,curious I am, Drake,nonchalant so far,but I am watching,oh by god am I watching:whistling2:.

Oops,forgot, two little tank reared leuc kids,doing ok:mf_dribble:.

To all the kind folks,whom have talked to us,even two new ones today,be lucky guys,have the best new year,push hard for what you want, but above all live it

Happy new year all

Shaz et moi


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## soundstounite

This was taken around chrimbo day I think,anyway just before he left the water.

Guys any that follow this mayhem,will know this is a big deal for us. God this has been a long time coming,and hopefully the first of a good few. I can't believe just how big this little fella is at this stage plus the obvious strength he is moving with. Maybe just maybe,this time we'll get there,all is promising,but one never knows. 

Ranitomeya summersi just before leaving the water,ha ha get in!!










joy

Stu


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## Meefloaf

BOOM ! fingers and toes crossed here mate


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## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> BOOM ! fingers and toes crossed here mate


ha ha happy days mate,thanks for all of it Joe
HNY
Stu


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## soundstounite

A few pics to show how similar the markings of the summersi tads is at this time,plus how early they show colour

These are some summersi tads,hopefully the next few to morph,note how similar the markings are













Stu


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## soundstounite

As oft is the case,my love of what lives wild in blighty sometimes results in a totally off topic pic. In this case it is a little bird that just makes me smile every time I see them,for me the cutest brit bird I guess. We are blessed,this was taken through my front door,we have a family of around 10 visiting and some actually breed here too.

Long tailed titmouse,I'm slowly building my picture taking skills,no where near there yet,just tell me you don't smile when you see this though:flrt::flrt:










Regarding frogs new summs kid, fine 3 histos doing well,growing fast guys RFB kid and leuc kids in viv good. 

The summersi tads are still terribly difficult to rear,as I've mentioned repeatedly. It's hard to believe I lost 3 of the above tads in the days following the above pics being taken. This is really new to us,anything else at this stage we would have a real chance of rearing,not these though. So as always head down keep pushing !! I haven't a clue what is not yet right,as hard as I try I can't think of anything other than age of parents. Or simply the reality that there is something no one has really sussed,and we are singularly not alone. It's sort of weird this one,in a few weeks we'll rack the 4 year of keeping and still feel like I learn each day which make me/us novices, yet I can't ask a single person in blighty,how they bred these,to the best of my knowledge that guy isn't here. If you are that guy please shout at me.:lol2: I might contact the Peppers to see what Mark is doing,I don't really like to bother them,but i'm sure more is to be had.

take care all

Stu


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## Arcadiajohn

Come on Stu : victory: its been almost a month....I'm getting Da DART ROOM withdrawals


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## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Come on Stu : victory: its been almost a month....I'm getting Da DART ROOM withdrawals


Weird that,just fed everyone,set 5 tubs a couple of days back wall to wall in frogs, new spring cultures being set bla de bla I don't have withdrawals at all Joh,go figure huh:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Seriously though buddy it's shameful,this you have my full apologies,can't get near stuff mate,got pm's to answer,(apologisies folks coming) can't get away from the job john,I'm still doing way after I've stopped work day after day,then all the froggie stuff,which is fun and cool but,so little time to post is just lame. 

Hopefully this insanity should get better soon,i'm desparate to get the camera out,mate !!

But thanks for the friendly bump mate ,really want to do a proper 4 year round up towards the 25th if I can get this monkey off my damn back:bash:

cheers kiddo

Stu


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## soundstounite

Guy my summersi results for rearing this species I would describe as pitiful at this time,that said joy of joys we have the 2nd to leave the water and all looks promising. I just can't yet seem to keep the tads alive,loosing many as they are well grown on. Fertility and hatchability is nearing 100%,but rearing a tads is so far defeating us. 

We are going to trial a whole new regime of food for a while based on Allen repashy's fish foods...all of these can be got hold of from Amanda and Nick at repashy.co.uk. What is really messing with me is the simple fact that when I produce a good summersi that gets ootw,they seem amongst the strongest froglets we've yet seen....HOW????

At this time I'm using a base mix of 4parts soilent green 1 part meat pie1 part spawn and grow, plus an addition of cycloops EEZE(freeze dried)
All I can say so far is the summersi and mystie tads like the food. Notable this as I've had mysties refuse certain foods before.

Anyway excuse the pic quality but lets face it I've never seen this before so I'd lay a bet you won't unless of course you are the guy that has cracked breeding summersi and you are quietly watching us struggle,in which case help me out bro..please

lil John,named after a yank mate whom is constant kind to us and always pushing us to be better about a month now ootw



this one ootw 3 days



next up one of the 3 RH kids bloody corker too



finally drake dad RH just a crap shot which shows the ever increasing red,possibly a fall out to the Bb laced with sp,ha you have to follow guys it's all here,i'm rushing....again:lol2:

.

Ya know summersi are something like 3 years of keeping for us,possibly a bit more,so in some ways showing those pics is just unreal,we have both wanted for so so long so so special. But in many and I only blame me not shaz,the fact that I'm loosing so many is breaking my ruddy heart,so close but yet so far..

As always not beat yet though:2thumb: watch me try...or fail. I've never been one that gets lucky it's always been grafted for,so now nearly 4 years in I'm right back to what I genuinely thought would happen at the off,but never did.. struggling to rear a tad

Bring it on

Stu


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## Meefloaf

soundstounite said:


> next up one of the 3 RH kids bloody corker too
> 
> http://s739.photobucket.com/user/soundstounite/media/Da frog Room/IMG_0051_zpsyfsw0n8y.jpg.htmlimage


oh my fudging god ! that is fudging beautiful fella *searches account for ton of cash* lol congrats dude, that is one beautiful frog

and semi congrats on the summersi, i know they are giving you hell, but i know you will get there, somehow


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## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> oh my fudging god ! that is fudging beautiful fella *searches account for ton of cash* lol congrats dude, that is one beautiful frog
> 
> and semi congrats on the summersi, i know they are giving you hell, but i know you will get there, somehow


Hey dude,ya both good?

Erm Joe more cash needed,,erm what an idiot I am,there is 4 mate,all the same age,how in god's name we haven't spotted this before,we are constantly watching that viv .So she actually reared 4 not 3..DOH:blush: I just can't believe it 3 do look quite similar like this one pictured one is redder on the head less orange,so obviously we have been mixing up the 3 

Ha so funny,no airs an graces here mate,:lol2:

I'll crack the summersi joe,it's the weirdest thing,I'm so thrilled to have got something,but so gutted that I'm not yet doing right by them...YET !!

best always

Stu


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## Meefloaf

aha 4 viv raised little guys eh ? she is loving being a mommy then it seems. will those markings become spots ?, also i love the spread of the orange, not just confined to the head etc

we are good, having issues with one of the tanks i have set up, killed the marcgravia, some ferns (one hanging in) and ficus ! the broms and amazonica are doing fine tho. been suggested about airflow, but it shouldnt be much different, i do think my soil mix last time wasnt enough and recipe was put together with stuff i had so think i may strip that out. got a 13w JD over the tank and water twice a day, i seem to think i dont water as much as other folk tho as my tanks are never dripping *dont want to drown broms and plants* but whenever i see folks tanks they seem to be WELL watered


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## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> aha 4 viv raised little guys eh ? she is loving being a mommy then it seems. will those markings become spots ?, also i love the spread of the orange, not just confined to the head etc
> 
> we are good, having issues with one of the tanks i have set up, killed the marcgravia, some ferns (one hanging in) and ficus ! the broms and amazonica are doing fine tho. been suggested about airflow, but it shouldnt be much different, i do think my soil mix last time wasnt enough and recipe was put together with stuff i had so think i may strip that out. got a 13w JD over the tank and water twice a day, i seem to think i dont water as much as other folk tho as my tanks are never dripping *dont want to drown broms and plants* but whenever i see folks tanks they seem to be WELL watered


She's a great mom Joe,still can't believe how lucky we have been,none of this is a given as you know.
Basically the yellow breaks up and gets smaller Joe,but it is incredibly difficult to really know what will happen. Yellow marking come through the dark areas as well. The kids always start out a more bronze than yellow,especially towards the head,this then fades back to the yellow seen in the adult Then there is the variability with the red which I haven't a clue on what might happen,incidentally 3 look similar to the one pictured,the other far less yellow,but much more of a red cast to the head. So really it just fascinating to watch this all develop and very difficult to completely know what they will look like,but that will be one pretty frog when it's older me thinks:2thumb:

Joe ficus can occassionally drop after a move,I've seen it,not many times mate,but it's happened,I know Ron's seen this too. It might just be the humidity change to viv ,I'm not sure,but that's basically why I keep them in propagators.

The fern ,if the soil was real wet,that might be the issue.

Marc,hmm not idea really,I've only struggled when they haven't got enough light ,I oft place then lower,again too wet might be a prob,but you are implying the opposite so I'm stumped,which was it mate sitensis,or umbellata,might be able to help there shortly,got a good few i'm trying to get going,not many sitensis if I remember.

Oh Joe,I have spoken to the breeder of the summersi,it seems that this is exactly what they saw. A real good while before any good froglets came through. I've been recommended to pull back on the breeding and add vit A twice a month. The vit A is already there,so I'll try for a stop for a couple of months and see what happens then. Really kind of them to share this with me and also somewhat reassuring,as they are some of the most respected breeders out there!!

take care dude,hope the plant thoughts are of use

Stu


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## Meefloaf

i did water the marc a bit directly so that might have been it. light shouldn't have been an issue but they may not have got enough as wood may have been in the way *thinking back i did move the jd from front to the middle of the viv, marcs at the front* 

I will be sorting the soil, need more of the stuff in there also, being my first glass bottom tank i think i didnt know the levels etc. I am also thinking that i may put a nice aechmea in there and a few other mystie favourable plants (i know i toy with the leucs and mysties for this viv) i feel the younger trio may not be ready to move in with the bigger guys just yet

I have seen plenty of variation in the colours of the redheads, some not being red at all, others a red dot fading to orange and yellow. would be nice if you get some guys with a bit more orange on the body hehe

as for the summersi, glad to hear, i know you waited awhile first time round, but this is good news, perhaps in a couple even 6 months the eggs will be much more stronger

Keep well
Joe


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## soundstounite

Gees and there was me wanting to do a four year round up,so little time guys:whip:.

But some notes from now for the hell of it.

We might be on the cusp of something regarding the summersi,first up egg laying has been slowed,but not yet completely stopped,so our efforts on this score seem to be on the way to working. We have a good few kids approaching morphout now showing colour and front leg bumps,two have popped, fronts,I so hope they make it. If they do make it then the next month will show me whether the new food has made any difference, I guess. Then again, it could simply be the parents are older and this was always the main factor. Mortality is down ,but I guess I'm just paranoid now and not wanting to hex anything,but the guts are saying we are closer. We have two(older) clutches in particular that seem to have very consistant growth,they look right,the best i've seen so far. Possibly you can tell there is an air of optimism here. Although that was somewhat quashed early this week by our new female being found dead,good weight just dead,incredibly sad as she was so bold and seemed to be doing great. Hmm the ups and down of livestock.

Having a larger collection often means these saddest of days are made easier by someone else in the frog room: we found a new red head kid later that day,although I doubted myself as I only caught a glimpse and it had vanished when I tried to show Shaz.

But he's there sure enough,which leads nicely into how the redheads are doing. The 5 christmas kids are growing like weeds,faster I would say than with my hand rearing efforts out of viv,they are long and rangy if you like, bloody corkers they are. My fears of Drake stressing out the kids seems unfounded,I'd go further. What we are seeing at bed time is utterly enchanting,they are all most all going up to roost together,last night a case in point,Drake sat nose to nose with one of his kids,JT on the next leaf almost huddled with 2 more another just up a bit,couldn't spot the last. It's bewildering and stunning to see. It's almost like they are still looking out for the kids, which I don't really think is the case,but who gets to see a whole family of 7 histos go to roost together,we have bee so incredibly fortunate it is unreal !!

Our azzie kids OOTW in july last year are almost fully grown growth has been astonishing,I'm wondering now if really low stocking densities are the best way of rearing tincs,we are constantly exploring and trying to be better with all the methods we use. I split the azzies into 2's 3's and one 4 very early in their life,there might be something in this,but as always one needs to repeat methods over and over to be sure. This takes time,but I think the constant re evaluation is worth it. 

Pums we have two morphs red frog beach and cemetery bastimentos, and a good few kids about. I'm trying in vien to prove out some RFB's ,but man it is a SLOW process frankly I've lost count of how many we have,i'll have to pull more closing on adulthood soon. I'm desparate for females and also want to help a friend out,very frustrating ,but the kids are drop dead stunning so patience is the order of the day and hopes are that sometime this year it will all fall into place. I've had to watch the both carefully as we had some egg eating going on,seems likely that big kids were doing this,which I haven't come across before,pulling the offenders seems to have made a difference ,so we now have two unrelated groups of bastis breeding,and much calling going on. 

Mysties doing great,we should have some kids ootw soon I can't wait the biggest tad has spots won't be long now,again they seem to be thriving on the repashy mix,of note this is the first time we have had many mystie tads in the ditch,maybe 4 or 5,but this lot seem to be leaving each other alone,this might be attributed to food,I just don't know.

Little lamasi doing well,mostly they are shy,but one is the exact opposite bold as brass,wonderful little things. I wish I could find a reason why some frogs are bold and some shy,despite all our efforts this is a mystery to me 

All in all things are ticking along well with the rest of the collection atachi kids doing great and just starting to set a few auratus and leuc eggs. We tend to set eggs sporadicaly now maybe only a couple or 3 clutches a year. I don't ever want us to be in a position where we are over run,which would be so easy now as many of our frogs are at their prime age wise for breeding.

I'll leave it there folks,much to do

belucky

Stu


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## soundstounite

Poor pics guys apologies meet some of our mates: 



























more will follow

seeya

Stu


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## Meefloaf

such beautiful frogs fella


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## soundstounite

Thanks bro got a rake of froggy pics coming,but time to get them up is so short,you good mate?

I don't really know why this started with the reds though Joe,ahh buddy hopefully one night I'll get the roost shot i've been wanting 7 red heads going to bed kids and parents sharing a couple of brom leaves,it's just lovely man,I think that is probably the reason. Erm another new face appeared in there a few days back joe,it's getting chocka in there,but Drake isn't really shouting and no eggs,maybe just maybe another to come???

Wish us luck mate we might just get there soon with a certain little frog:mf_dribble: or maybe not :bash: but I have high hopes we are edging closer,you'll see soon
best
Stu


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## Meefloaf

im good, just need to get the plywood shelves in on my stack building, then its done and i can get hte room back to some sort of normality lol. going to put aside that rock work i was doing, it seems to me to be more for the mysties, and i am more pressed to want to get the super blues into a nice new home.

I've seen on facebook a fair few shots of frogs all hanging out in the same brom, and my original 2 leucs can be seen around 7 taking themselves to bed, climbing up and into a cork tube, its quite funny seeing them do it. one day you'll grab the magic fella, am stoked for you to hear they are doing well.


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## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> im good, just need to get the plywood shelves in on my stack building, then its done and i can get hte room back to some sort of normality lol. going to put aside that rock work i was doing, it seems to me to be more for the mysties, and i am more pressed to want to get the super blues into a nice new home.
> 
> I've seen on facebook a fair few shots of frogs all hanging out in the same brom, and my original 2 leucs can be seen around 7 taking themselves to bed, climbing up and into a cork tube, its quite funny seeing them do it. one day you'll grab the magic fella, am stoked for you to hear they are doing well.


Thanks buddy,it's the fact that it's kids and parents that is so lovely to me Joe,especially because I had worries on Drake pushing them around. Yeah just keep pushing mate you'll get there,how are the Sb's joe have you heard any calling yet? I've got some more pics to come mate a couple of sb shots in there too.

Here's a nice little set,these are all summersi taken just a few days back,all at the same time to basically show the development of a summersi tadpole,so not a proper day by day record,all different individuals,but cool to see. Joe thanks for all the wishes on the frogs and especially the encouragement with this little cracker. Within the next month I'll know if I have got there with this tricky species,but as one can see things are close now really close. We have 7 close to leaving the water as of today,ie all legs popped,but some are older than others.That said, I'm hugely encouraged by 4 tads that went ITTW on the 15th of Dec, and have all just popped fronts together within a 48hour period or less. So we might just finally be on our way to getting this one sorted,but it still can go pear shaped:bash:,time will tell.
So starting at a few days after hatch



























[


----------



## soundstounite

2 summersi out now all digits crossed

Some random pics of our frogs:
Lamasi




Azzie kids growth has been astounding,I got the numbers per rearing tub right down very early,tweaking the method we are building to rear a tinc,in an effort to be better and maybe reduce and possible stress,got they look like adults and only came ootw in july







Atachibakka kids





Superblue auratus



Some of our oldest red head kids at an age to breed now,but playing the patient card of preventing this from happening,in an effort to give them the best start. I'm going to be overrun soon with big red head kids which is very strange,but I feel it is important to get at least another pair or group breeding ,before parting with many







Stu


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## Meefloaf

Stu, i love that super blue. Still no calling from them yet, but as i said to you the other day, im hoping that having a nice new home more designed to their needs will encourage their behaviours a bit more.

as for the azzies, they are what, 7months old thereabouts ? they are fricking huge ! they get on well too and can be found hanging out together


----------



## soundstounite

Thanks Joe,ahh mate I have 4 sb's like this they all look similar pretty much adult size now i've been praying yours would start to call or better breed( this might all happen at the same time with these) before they go to a new home if i'm honest,just in case you have all girls,we could take a best guess at one of these as a male. that's all it would be,I can't accurately sex them for love nor money:lol2:,but make a guess sure. I so hope you have a trio mate either way 2;1 or 1:2 matters not.

I've held a good few azzies too Joe, same here bro, I'm trilled with their growth as well,yup they are around 7 months maybe a bit older now maybe 9,it depend which hatch but it's still :gasp: It's bloody nuts,mate have a dig on dart den on my thread there, I just wrote a massive thing about tincs for a friend in the states,Jim's doing some great things with Lorenzo and Robertus. It might go some way to explaining why I think they have done so well. They are bloody close now to mum's size mate and I always thought she was a big azzie,I wonder if they will grow more:mf_dribble:

I think the morph is faster than Attachis to grow Joe, they are the only tincs I have reared so I haven't a handle on the big picture we need Glenn on that one!!! But splitting then down to real low numbers early seems to be the ticket.

Ahh mate I'm so pleased they have done well for you,both sets of frogs,just need you to tell me that you have a breeding group especially the SB's,it will be easier to find an azzie he said laughing after the time I had sorting them out. The new viv will hopefully do the trick fingers crossed for you mate

best always kiddo

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

you are too kind Stu. I've gone back to basics for the auratus viv, not going to mess about with styro etc, started siliconing cork backgroun in and then going to get the wood in place etc. 

i need to send you that bloody polybox, i was going to send it the other week as my sister had another going spare too, sorry i've not gotten it off sooner fella, upside down world


----------



## soundstounite

Joe you'll get the box to me when ya can don't worry bro !!!!!

Basics is cool ,stay with the philosophy of building to a frog fullfill that and happy froggies:2thumb:. The backgrounds are for them ,but partially my creative needs too it's how I am ,I make stuff. With time they oft get lost to plants but that base set up is still there and still being used. Many ways to skin a cat Joe. It is only wrong is it doesn't work 



Summersi each day now brings at least another kid moving to morphout,each day the number of kids ootw grows and so far much to my amazement each one is still here. So of course it's not cracked when they are grown on correctly then it will be done.

For now, seeing this after nearly 3 1/2 years of trying, this IS as good as it could be, if they do grow correctly and I can get them to some friends,then the job is a good un,if not back to trying to be better:bash:

'Corse there is other stuff it does happen when one has a room of darts, a little new cem basti special because we now have the two groups breeding so are able to pass forwards unrelated kids again to the next guy. ha ha stoked
The other group of cems throwing almost all red kids,well two sets of similar markings and similar sizes equal more than i thought 4 newish kids growing well. Bloody brilliant yesterday morn early,our first new mystie kid very nearly caught me out left the water a bit before I thought he would,cracking little guy ahh the joy mystie kids again. SB's nothed things up a bit over the last few weeks,have a couple of clutches on the go,maybe one more and that will be it for a while. Red heads the five all stunning I means properly stunning growth superior to anything previous,little guy doing well,i think there should be more coming ,but so far nowt. Pan special same as the SB's,just ramping them up a while setting a few for the joy of it,parents get ever prettier with age. even got a couple or three leucs about some reared in the viv some pulled...god I've def missed stuff,but hey, stuff to do

bring it on:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Stu


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## soundstounite

For a Dr:whistling2:

Ranitomeya summersi,bred in blighty from 100% genuine UE stock all not long ootw. So far so good !!!!













seeya

Stu


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## Meefloaf

mmmmm bright orange and black, looking good chief


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## Darren.rl

Well done Stu... Congrats :2thumb:
: victory:: victory:


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## soundstounite

Ha cheers Joe,thought you'ld like the colour:2thumb:

Daz thanks for keeping pushing me mate,long old road since we got the first little guys huh !!!! Cheers for all the thoughts and ideas kiddo mucho gracias 

Ain't they lovely:flrt:

bring it on

Stu


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## Meefloaf

this was posted on FB and i thought of you


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## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> this was posted on FB and i thought of you
> 
> image


Robert Nahn by chance Joe looks like his...i'm aware of them mate,I can't remember if living colours is his site though, but this pattern is very familiure it's that is making me guess if he is the breeder. Utterly silly though as the patterns so obviously vary so much even from just one pair. :lol2:

Stunning huh some of the christmas 5 are similar mate a move is imminent I'll try and get some proper pics up of how they are now if I can get chance.

cheers for this mate

Stu


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## Meefloaf

they are indeed his


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## soundstounite

Joe thanks for yesterday buddy lovely to see ya both:2thumb:.

Not quite the esteemed standard of Robert,who is actually a very cool guy as well. I'm lucky to have spoken to him a few times. Great breeder and very generous. a great supporter of sustainable frogs!!! I admire this one from the other side of the world . Once I've finished my post for Ivan here are some crap shots of my chrimbo kids

Guys just in case anyone still subscribes to this malarky and hasn't seen my posts about Tesoros. Christoph in France has organised a peptition,please sign this,sure there is a thread deadicated to this,but we need some help,from anyone whom cares about sustainable frogs for our hobby,plus the actual wild frogs aswell. So far the participation of the hobby has been desparately poor,it's almost shameful I guess,but maybe folks just do not care,as long as they get there frogs ,about the big picture,hell I dunno a minute of someones time for a good cause to help us,and CBA is my hobby's stance. but they'll all be lined up if this pans out and the frogs come in...hey ho 

Have a read guys:
https://www.change.org/p/environmen...otat-and-the-licence-modification-for-oophaga

Growth rate is astounding !!











he he and even little baby is doing,remarkable really with 7 older competitors in the same viv!!!!!!!



some blood red cemetery bastis kids







Ahh we have a new baby in this viv,bless it,first little brown thing from this group:2thumb: So I've been boshing a few springs about late each night,to give him chance of a top up. Last night Dad was feeding well on these that were left on the branch where the depo cans are. Bless him ,so busy feeding he stepped back into nowhere,I have this surreal mental picture of two front legs and a head disappearing from view as he fell,sorry but I fell on the floor laughing,he naturally landed on his feet and just continued feeding,with that "what" look on his face...bloody priceless these special dart moments:no1::lol2:

seeya

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

was lovely seeing you as always Stu, time flew by too fast tho.

your Matecho needs to breed fella, i need to have some of its kids to ride to work lol


----------



## soundstounite

Always does mate oft wish we were back down there in the world of the living!!

I need to find a male for her Joe,I'm sure her companion is female even though it doesn't look that way. But yup she is an absolute beast of a frog,trying to pull her weight back no easy thing mate.I really think breeding would do her some good actually,so if anyone out there has an adult Macheto male please give me a shout.

Since we caught up I've got some depo sites in the group of red heads Joe,actually yesterday afternoon. I've got the misting right up and given them a couple of real heavy downpours. Early start and ten plus hours of graft today ,so not much time for watching,but already it seems like things are starting to kick. Puzzle is calling,first real time I've heard him go at it properly. He was seemingly doing the love stuff this morn,stood in front of a film can with bromleaf,whom I've thought for a long time is a lass, the next few days are going to be interesting mate.

Ha you should of seen Puzz and Moon yesterday,both confirmed male. The minute I had that branch containing the cans in place they were up there checking it out no stone unturned!! The other frogs didn't seem bothered ,but these two were on it straight away,they met in the middle and all seemed well. I wish I could have spent more time watching today,I keep catching Puzz sat in a can front arms almost hanging over the sides. God knows what he's up too,it is almost like he is checking everything out as a precursor to breed, even how much water there is,but I have no idea really what is going on. this bit is sort of weird as one would think if I have any girls,they would be clocking all this ,not so much the boys Bloody fascinating watching the results of two egg laying sites and 5 depo in a group of 5 redheads bred here. They are all much older than when Jt and Drake started as I've held them back and then had the problems with their viv ,so I'm not quite so concerned about them breeding as when the parents started.


belucky mate

Stu


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## Meefloaf

hehe, awesome news fella !

i forgot to ask you the other day. with my leuc move, i was thinking of putting them into a nice big rub for quarantine and also keeping an eye on how they mix together rather than something going wrong in the viv, do you think this is a good idea ? the two suspected females (2-3yrs old, hard to put specifics) seem very keen to meet tinc my male from the other viv, he was out calling today and they were both at the front wondering where their hunt of man meat is lol. the worry is 4 females in one viv for me, if they arnt supressed males, one has a dodgy leg, good size and is always up the top of the viv when she wants, but i do worry about poss problems in new group. both with will be getting a size in viv upgrade


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> hehe, awesome news fella !
> 
> i forgot to ask you the other day. with my leuc move, i was thinking of putting them into a nice big rub for quarantine and also keeping an eye on how they mix together rather than something going wrong in the viv, do you think this is a good idea ? the two suspected females (2-3yrs old, hard to put specifics) seem very keen to meet tinc my male from the other viv, he was out calling today and they were both at the front wondering where their hunt of man meat is lol. the worry is 4 females in one viv for me, if they arnt supressed males, one has a dodgy leg, good size and is always up the top of the viv when she wants, but i do worry about poss problems in new group. both with will be getting a size in viv upgrade


We started to talk on this bro,a bloody frog probably distracted us,ok I probably distracted us:blush::lol2:

Joe I'm a bit confused here,run the numbers by me again mate ... 4 females one calling male "tinc". what else? obviously the two older girls haven't been with tinc yet and I'm sure you said 2 groups,the others of good ol Jaime,is that 3...are we talking 5 total or is there more?

I'll say this bro which ever way this goes you would see scrapping male on male ...female on female,seen it all and hard core stuff too mate,so be warned there will be (probably) wrestling, standing on my mates head and a fair bit of trying to chuck the other about.But it simply doesn't seem to be sustained Joe,it's like they just butt heads then go back to being mates.

You have had all these frogs for ages bro,no I wouldn't qt in another tub all together. I'd move all together into a viv now. Mate look, moving is stressful to froggies, with stress, carried problems can manifest them selves ,but mate I just can't see you having any real problems as you have had them so long. I really do see some scraps coming though while they sort out who is top dog,but I really think they will settle eventually. Joe nothing is 100% in this game We both see frogs as individuals and individuals have to get on,but I can't think of a case where leucs had to be split up because of aggression.
Basically mate you'll be adding another move and more stress and,which I don't think you need to do really. Obviously as always mate it's your choice,but I can't really find a benefit as you will see them in viv and be able to monitor there 

Do remember my leucs have been reared together from the off,which might be a player,but leucs seem to live and let live


Joe if the final group dynamic is 1:4 you may well get egg eating,god I wish Glenn was here,as I'm bloody sure he has a high female ratio and sees egg eating. Our group is 3:2,plus kids are getting reared in there as you saw.

I'm pretty cautious bro and I do understand your worries mate, but I think another QT is unecessary in this case,unless you fecaled the two separately first,which given the time span with you seems plain silly now. Really once they go together you need to watch for weight loss not the scrapping,the scrapping I think will happen but I also think it will settle,so it's only weight loss that will really tell you if a particular individual can't cope. If I'm correct in the group dynamic I'd say not ideal,but not impossible to work either,with the caviats above. Plus they are going to have a good big old gaff to float about in not some tiny viv,so nailing some line of sight barriers in the build is one thing I'd def factor in:2thumb:

does that help me old mate?

Stu


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## Meefloaf

cheers Stu.

its 5 all together, 3 off J and the other two older guys. the reason i believe i have 4 females is, i've not heard or seen a single call come from any other frog and i've sat in there for a bit and it is just (the identity crisis waiting to happen) Tinc calling for a mate and all four appear to be alert, especially the older two. Breeding isnt necessarily a big thing for me, my main concern is the aggression etc and if female heavy group would be a bad thing


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> cheers Stu.
> 
> its 5 all together, 3 off J and the other two older guys. the reason i believe i have 4 females is, i've not heard or seen a single call come from any other frog and i've sat in there for a bit and it is just (the identity crisis waiting to happen) Tinc calling for a mate and all four appear to be alert, especially the older two. Breeding isnt necessarily a big thing for me, my main concern is the aggression etc and if female heavy group would be a bad thing


Yeah it isn't what I'd call the ideal mix,mine is....I fluked it:whistling2::lol2:

Seriously Joe i think you can only try and see what happens and minimal moves =less stress. Bro whether breeding is important or not only matters to us in that that's when you'll see the sparks fly. They can produce a lot mate ,but for a lot of the time i'm keeping them a tad dry I guess,moderate the food a bit and they will slow or completely stop. I think their wild breeding season if fairly short mate. I think it might be good for 'em long term to not be bred like machines, as many frogs,but the point I'm trying to make is managing them not to breed might also help with the agro 

But mate they are leucs, you'll be fine mate:2thumb:. don't be worrying on this!! If the frogs really kick off,you have good eyes you'll spot it and make the right call. honestly from your words here I think you'll have eggs soon after they old gals meet tinc anyway...tough:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2: 

Hehe there's plenty of cool stuff going on in a tank of luecs,I just adore the kids though:blush: what can I say.:flrt::flrt::flrt:

Joe, really what i'm trying to do is just make you aware of them being little sods and not to over react too quick!! I think if something does go wrong you'll see it mate,they tend to be tubbies anyway you'll know if it goes too far. Plus you have the advantages that you know each one real well all behaviours will be much clearer to you because they have been with you so long now. This will be so different to getting new frogs where you don't know their personalities.

belucky mate

Stu


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## soundstounite

I having had these sitting here for yonks,yup we still keep darts:gasp:

I'm sorry I haven't been able to keep all up to date. Going to work and finding the guy I've cared for (for 9 years 6 days a week) dead yes I found him not his family, left me not only heart broken but also without employment as I didn't feel it fair to another guy to start over in the same line of work. So I've gone back to building houses,well the mastic side for the time being basically got offered job and needs must...I'm way to old for this guys:bash:

We have a flock of kids on the go,but for now those old pics taken god knows when:



































Ha there is a tiny rfb in these whom is now not erm tiny,but as we speak I have 4 coming to see me to call,I find it astounding that a frog just out of the water probably in the 5mm range( say half your little fingernail) can get that I bring them springs within days of meta and this happenes over and over and over each batch if following this exact same pattern

seeya

Stu


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## Meefloaf

awesome, so glad to see you back posting pics Stu

take care bud


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## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> awesome, so glad to see you back posting pics Stu
> 
> take care bud


I've even got a new camera Joe,still haven't taken a froggy pic yet:bash:...but I will:2thumb: very much learning though at the mo.

had these for months buddy bloody stupid stupid work mind damn ain't I getting fit,bugger all else though :lol2:

belucky bro

Stu


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## soundstounite

Second generation red head eggs laid today from frogs we have bred here monster!!

what can I say so damn thrilled both potential females we have part or completely reared I'm utterly stunned. Puzzle, dad, is guarding like a good 'un his constant calls alerted me 

I'm so bloody chuffed
bring it on
Stu


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## soundstounite

Red head viv featuring cut up waste recycled Dicksonia antartica,which we got after that really cold winter a couple of years back. i'm really interested to see what happens with this stuff. I have never used tree fern because of environmental concerns,so i'm hoping we might just see a profusion of tropical mosses and maybe even ferns that have been buried away,if they survived that cold snap that is

pre planting



post planting



take care

Stu


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## phelsumaman

You really captured the depth of this viv in the first pic Stu. 

Have you decided against broms in this viv or are they still to come?

Ben

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


----------



## soundstounite

phelsumaman said:


> You really captured the depth of this viv in the first pic Stu.
> 
> Have you decided against broms in this viv or are they still to come?
> 
> Ben
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


Broms might feature later Ben , I'm not sure yet,I'd like to do without frankly. Bloody things are a mare with oophaga,it's fine when you can see what's going on,but mostly one can't,that means the water game is compromised and if over done then the brom rots tads die underdone tads die. If I could set a brom so every single axil was visible,then I'd go broms,the only other caviat is if one wants to limit how many kids a mum rears,again broms don't give this option.

It's complex this one Ben,if I can get the frogs going using cans and if the kids exit the water with the same vitality as brom reared,then cans have it,mind there are some damn big if's there.

hope ya good bro and Nat is well

Stu


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## soundstounite

Rock 'n' roll. 


A couple of days back I found two single eggs in two different film cans,big deal huh. Well yes actually the eggs are laid by an as of yet unknown female,bred here. So the second monster post(for us anyway) post in a couple of weeks. The frogs are our red frog beach and sure i've got a few kicking about,but this is the first conformation of a breeding female,a female full stop. It's wonderful news for us because these little guys are seemingly very scarce here. so it's another tiny step forwards and frankly one I've been waiting for ,for so long now,it's untrue. Straight away we have an unrelated male ready to go,actually he's in the viv with these already. It's lovely having this next step,I so want to fix these guys here,such stunning frogs and such wonderful kids to play with,they really are enchanting. 

Tell ya what these dart projects where one is trying to do more than just breed from one group of frogs don't half take some time to move forwards,progress is incredibly slow,but I think hanging in there is really worth while,I'm utterly thrilled by this. These frogs are some of the first we have bred, in some ways it's very cool for the frogs that they have taken so long as everyone should be properly mature by now ,

bring it on

Stu


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## Meefloaf

you know me, love a Red Frog Beach update, awesome news Stu, keep trucking


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## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> you know me, love a Red Frog Beach update, awesome news Stu, keep trucking


Wait till ya see some proper pics of these little fellas Jose,if I can take them that is:bash: ahh mate the new 4 have a couple with stripes:flrt::flrt: pillar box red whiter underneath and , ok, well sort of stripesbloody scribbles more like. 

They are big bloody tiny now:lol2: but mate sooo bold,ha Shaz spoke they know her too now,she's been doing so much, one lept from the back,obviously going for the throat,but fell short landing on the mesh.Ha got a torrade of expletives about making the frogs come when called:whistling2:

funny as


I know I'm meant to be a grown man:lol2:

the little things mate
belucky kiddo

Stu

ps built that viv yet????:whip:


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## soundstounite

Tabitha this is for you,but I thought I'd actually do this one in public not private as there is a deep massage here about diligence and culturing as a dart collection increases. i'd like this to really go out there and have so little time! So I thought why not kill two birds with one stone and bang it down here. I think this is so important it is worth sharing with any one else who keeps darts. I know we were not talking about springtails ,but I wanted to illustrate my problems not yours in the hope it might help someone else and their frogs as well as you..... maybe one day years from here:



Tabitha We culture springtails in 50size fat ball tubs or the tubs from morrisons which are sort of flat,say about 18"sq 4or5" deep maybe we have 30 or so all on the charcoal method with yeast as the food. I occassionaly have probs with mites, a particular mite that spells death to a culture. These cultures are all sealed bar a 2 micron vent. The holes so small water and mites can't get through. They are used in tissue culture for stuff like orchids even fungi spore can't pass through it, but they allow gas exchange so preventing CO2 build up and suffocation. Most cultures are kept on mite paper,diatomous earth might be a better option, if doable. In the frog room my cultures are just on the floor under racks,it's impossible to have a mite prevention under them. 

Over chrimbo I had ten of twelve cultures contaminated with mites,I think I had physically transferred the mites myself now when feeding, so binned, or feed out all. Tab's some of those cultures had a date of 2112 on. I find it insane that a mono culture can still be producing after that amount of time but it is cold hard fact. 

In my ,or, I should say OUR position with a larger collection, it is nearly impossible to just turn around and buy in that level of loss,this would be something amounting to tens of starter cultures if one could find them.

But although it is taking time, in weeks those colonies are nearly replaced and all the while the frogs have been fed without worry or stress to me and Shaz,sure it's been a shed load of graft I really don't need when things are just mental here !!

There is a deep message here for anyone keeping darts ie don't do just enough ...do enough for that rainy day when the sh*t hits the fan. This has been our first really big crash i know enough now, to know that this will come oneday !!! Every keeper of longstanding has told me it will happen and sure enough all but five years in bosh. The simple fact is that 20 or so other cultures are still chuntering along. That is enough to feed the kids and some
so there isn't a blind panic just some graft to get things back on track.

Tabitha learn from me here I don't know it all i'm really little more than a novice,it's just when one keeps a few more than normal one gets to experience more and that can then be passed forwards,naturally if things got really bad then god know how many iso would come into play.

For all dart keepers,put your back stops in place don't rely on a shop, make it happen at home!!! It might well be years before that day comes and on the surface one might be drawn to the conclusion that one simply doesn't need to do this much, at times it's real hard to be constantly over doing...but there is a reason. 

Flies springs iso it matters not, be good and overdo.... tis blighty a rainy day is always gonna come just don't think that someone else will provide a back stop.

best always mate good luck with those kids:2thumb:

Stu

ps Joe sorry not been about mate (everyone is getting the same) snagged a few minutes to try and get sommit down thought you would like to see the "DADDY",I have never got a pic of him before and took this in november. I see the little rascal all the time but grab a camera and the bleeder is gone. May I introduce "Spot" a little guy who just fathers some astounding kids and is very, ney I say VERY seriously special to me:

IMG_5417 by Stuart Philpott, on Flickr

love to Paula bro


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## Meefloaf

hey fella, lovely pic of an awesome frog hehe. 

i'm getting there atm, just got me last viv done for the min. big viv next for the terribs. my laptop has died so i've not been around myself at all either, phone is a nightmare to try and play with etc, will grab pics as i can like.

two questions here mate. firstly i've hopped aboard the vitamin a thing, i know i should've a long time, just dust with that instead of the calci plus yeah ? once every two weeks ?

secondly, a few weeks ago i noticed that my lil male leuc was stupidly skinny and tied to feed him up in the viv, but i've since moved him back to his old 45 exo cube and have managed to get the weight back on him with relative ease, slice of banana in with the flies hehe. the females dwarf this little guy and i dont think he'll get much bigger. im at a quandry as to waht to do, i have 4 females in the other tank and was wondering if two males would be better in there etc.

hope you and shaz are ding well mate, take care and hopefully catch up soon

Joe


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## Cicindela

Stu- TOTAL eye candy on the histos frogs- listened to them on youtube - definitely quack quack!- :mf_dribble: Wonderful and thanks again for your messages and help with the mites. Looking out for the acme anti-mite pots too. Cheers and best wishes to you:flrt:


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## soundstounite

Cicindela said:


> Stu- TOTAL eye candy on the histos frogs- listened to them on youtube - definitely quack quack!- :mf_dribble: Wonderful and thanks again for your messages and help with the mites. Looking out for the acme anti-mite pots too. Cheers and best wishes to you:flrt:


I've been in the frog room all morn Tabitha,got 3 boys all going nuts in different vivs,it's just lovely. My oldest pair got a new brom mum was in there in minutes checking out axils,they are very bright mate for a frog. I've always pondered whether parental care has something to do with that. The calls vary mate sure it's all quack based but there is more going on: little soft monosylabic quacks during courtship full blown calling to attract a mate etc. On the whole extremely bold aswell. The redheads vary emensely in markings even from just a pair some no red some lots. Real characters mate something to work up too I guess. They come from colombia mate and are very desired I guess being large and fabulous to look at and valuble they have been collected illegally,with time hopefully Tesoros will bring more in via a legal sustainable source and once folks get them going then they might be more available. They can be very tricky to breed and slow producers because mum is doing so much with all the egg feeding, numbers produced are limited hence also fueling demand. 

I'm very slow with them Tabatha,trying to give long breaks to rest the lass,I think it's easy to push them too hard in captivity their breeding season being short in the wild,it's taken us a long time to get this far.They are very special I don't really like the esoteric rep they have feeling all my frogs are equal and all have their own attributes, but they are something else to keep .

It's something very special to see the kids suddenly appear as tiny things mate a bit like all the oophaga,he he I could so go on about the RFB to back that statement, but must get back to it !!!

Always welcome mate good luck
Stu


----------



## soundstounite

Tabs. you are watching I have no time but got some piccies coming for ya with some effort in 'em,thought I'd post just to heighten anticipation bad, am I not:lol2:

take care mate all the luck 

Stu


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## Cicindela

You're a tease! I look forward to seeing the pics - drool drool. You'll have to tell me what camera you are using.
I have just picked up four alanis- not quite in the same league as a histos but i'm delighted with them.
Cheers and best wishes Tabitha


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## soundstounite

Yeah mate ,but not too long to wait if things pan out. :whistling2: Tabitha congrats on your new kids all they are all lovely kiddo all have different attributes, as before I know the large oophaga have that "tag" but, I still love the tincs they are such fun and so bold, there is something for everyone in darts !!

Mate these are the first pics i've posted here from the the canon 1Div my new camera well secondhand. It's a beast of a tool mate built like a brick ****. Tabitha I've always wanted to be around and get close too our wildlife,goes back since childhood. I've always had a deep yearning to take really good pics of what I see,i'm very fortunate mate seen some amazing things,so the camera is part of this. hopefully with time and some help I'll also really get to grips with the frog photography too. Folks have always been really kind about the froggy stuff i've shown,but I'd really like to take this as far as possible,both facets. I'm using canon's 100mm macro but the cheeper non is version for the frogs. This monster camera is paired with a lump of a lens for wildlife,but i'm not very good at the wildlife,there is so damn much to get one's head around and with wildlife there is oft little time. Ha, I end up cursing myself alot:mf_dribble: for messing up as that stuff i've been learning since childhood (fieldcraft) means I get great chances and screw them up,it'll come with time. 

Tabitha for the frogs I work off a tripod for the more serious pics. I use quite high f say f13 for what will hopefully follow and very slow shutter trying to get the depth of field right which is always thin up close,our froggies wil stay dead still for ages so that's what I try to snap. Haven't the foggiest if i'm approaching this correctly,but really I don't want to use flash on the frogs, so options are somewhat limited.

These guys are all bred here just coming up to sexual maturity the viv as always built here,this is my most recent viv using some tree fern that got killed by that cold winter a few years back and I snaffled to prevent it ending up in landfill. I don't normally use TF I have environmental worries, so this first use has been somewhat of an eye opener. One of my best froggy mates got me some cracking fairly scarce ferns from holland,one was mounted on TF and a little liverwort I think??? grew off that tiny panel of TF. I have planted some of this in the viv and I suspect that it's this that is going bloody nuts in this young viv. Tabitha shaz and I have played with a good few moss type plants over the years we have never seen anything like this before,frankly the progress this little plant is making is astounding to me. It doesn't do so well on the branches or cork sure it's coming,but on the treefern utterly at home ,I guess spores are traveling down,I don't think it's tropical spores actually on the tree fern showing so much, hell it went down to minus 19 here that winter,but who knows whether there is some of that too. But for sure this little gem I just got gifted through luck is a happy bunny in this viv. I suspect I might be using more of this:no1:

Some pics mate:

_70F1090 by Stuart Philpott, on Flickr

_70F1082 by Stuart Philpott, on Flickr

_70F1069 by Stuart Philpott, on Flickr

_70F1057 by Stuart Philpott, on Flickr

_70F1044 by Stuart Philpott, on Flickr

_70F1034 by Stuart Philpott, on Flickr

The kids vary alot in markings no red to quite a bit sometimes taking a while to show sometimes showing earlier. I think the carroteniods help a bit

take care mate enjoy

Stu


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## Cicindela

Hi Stu, Those sure are beautiful frogs- their colours really pop- truly amazing- and fantastic photos, will try the setting you said on mine, lovely clear and colourful shots, it's been a real pleasure and a treat to see them - will get back on youtube and see some more vids of them. I see the liverwort, amazing, i'd love to use tf but i too am worried about it, beautiful plant growth though, you never know what is lurking there to start growing i suppose, 
I got a new camera too- on monday , a nixon d3300, I'm very pleased with it but i have never understood photography so am learning on youtube. I got it just for frog pho-tog! so am enjoying trying to get some piccies.
The fruit fly panic is over- I have so many ffs it's mad! pots and pots, my first home made cultures hatched the other day- some feeling of satisfaction was felt i have to say! Nice to know I am super overstocked than under.
a few pics of my kids - an alanis- a sip and a fat bellied patricia! sounds like the beginning of a joke.
Good to see you back here Stu!
Have a good day.


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## soundstounite

FF's goodonya mate rock 'n' roll:no1: Kiddo we caught six wild ff and made this media stuff up, yee gads, say two years afore keeping, popped em somewhere warmish seems like an age ago,but I remember the day I took the lid off,it was massive for me,"we might actually really be able to keep darts" went through my head, ha, I understand the euphoria mate:whistling2:

Tincs look fab kiddo sip is to die for huh? I'm not the keenest on alanis Tabitha but that is what is so lovely about darts there is something for all !! But, who hasn't a soft spot for pats,Alan Cann lost his WC female at 27 years old I think that is right mate, it's astounding for a small frog that level of longevity. your frogs look great mate fab.make 'em work for grub where poss,blow the flies off your hand ,so they go allways

Mate I'm bloody hopeless with this picture lark the dof is governing my pictures in this macro world. I find it incredibly difficult with the lights and black, and light... reflective subjects,like yellow. I don't know if what I am doing is right mate and the images are sharp just the slightest movement of froggy would clobber that, but it does yield the above pics what ever that means:lol2:

Ahh mate the guys are miles up in the air i'm balancing tripod on god knows what and running a ten second timer to try and stop vibrations i'm lucky to have got anyone to keep still that long,bless 'em:lol2: 

stu


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## Cicindela

27 years old- No way! Thats remarkable, thanks for the posts Stu- enlightening and entertaining! Will look forward to more froggy pics when you get them. I tried the ffs on the hand and then blowing technique- worked very well so that's what I do now -good for the frog exercise regime - not that my Patricia is at all chubby though :whistling2:. Thanks for everything Stu, Happy Frogging. :notworthy:


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## Meefloaf

Hope you guys are well dude


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## Meefloaf

Okay, second time lucky with these pics


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## soundstounite

Cheers bro battered sideways would be fair termanology bro cheers for this mate!! They look good where did they come from lmao? 

seriously any idea on sexes yet Joe

how ya doing buddy how's Paula? Love the peek a bo pic mate corking that. 

joe ya know those two RFB I couldn't catch and they disappeared all but certain both are girls, caught the red un laying recently plus some kids just appeared that are cabon copies of the other,ahh man one day will get pics we are friends now but it's still on their terms so pics are tricky,but spell binding in beauty mate OMG seriously so.

Ahh mate, but in all this talk about oophaga and so called esoteric frogs,there is still that supreme joy encapsulated in two little tiny leucs that have once again pulled them selves out in viv with no help,ahh Joe ya ought to see them with me,well ok ya know some of this stuff having seen it ,but it's still so wonderful that something so small can just come bouncing up to me and I have to all but shove it back in viv,tis all bribary though and a few words huh:mf_dribble:

best always bro sorry not about, killer this, but hey when was life ever easy

Stu


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## Meefloaf

I think its a male and two females, prior to moving them into that viv i had heard a very low buzz come from their temporary home. Ive also got the super blues into theirs today, bloody things been sat out on show all day lol so much for being shy

laptop still down, and job up in the air, loads of bs basically, new terms that i dont like, so atm off to uni in sept. Will get pics once every unknown becomes known

We are good, paula has been getting back into drawing anime. Hope all is well your end.

one last bit, i had to remove male leuc from tank as had become very skinny, fed him up and all is well with him, just dont know what to do next. He is rather small compared to the girls and also wondered if another male might help, group atm is 1male and 4females

joe


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## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> I think its a male and two females, prior to moving them into that viv i had heard a very low buzz come from their temporary home. Ive also got the super blues into theirs today, bloody things been sat out on show all day lol so much for being shy
> 
> laptop still down, and job up in the air, loads of bs basically, new terms that i dont like, so atm off to uni in sept. Will get pics once every unknown becomes known
> 
> We are good, paula has been getting back into drawing anime. Hope all is well your end.
> 
> one last bit, i had to remove male leuc from tank as had become very skinny, fed him up and all is well with him, just dont know what to do next. He is rather small compared to the girls and also wondered if another male might help, group atm is 1male and 4females
> 
> joe


Joe that low buzz is so quiet I can watch 'em call and not hear so surely ya have a lad in their what about the sb's mate anything there? He he just fed ours some spings opened the door a bit rash pulled something in me mate not moving right,anyway zorina bolted stopped on me saying dinner time and flew back to me and da grub,tis time mate they need time having said that the old lad is still shy I see him all the time but the slightest wrong movement and he's vanished. love to see what paula's doing bro .

what ya gonna study mate?

Hmm the luec wow that's a tricky one,it very much sounds like he is bottom of the pile mate,which is a particular difficulty for me 'cause five was too only he grew up all quiet like to be top dog. Joe I've seem all sorts of malarky with this group of all but five years standing now,25th of feb mate = 5 years 3 boys 2 girls mainly it's same sex agro so I am utterly at a loss as to which way you should go,I guess you are musing more boys gives less attention to him...spread the love man...but new fella(and I've had a guy asking me for a male for ages,so not so easy to find anyway) might add more pressure to him,might work out great. Buddy ya know me if I could give an answer I felt cool with it would be here but this one:bash::bash::bash:. Ran this by shaz she is leaning towards reducing female number so maybe a 1:2 and see how this works.

buddy if little man is tame enough you might spot feed him springs in with the ladies and make sure he gets a good share but get him back to 100% first and a bit more. Follow a routine mate always food in one place always the talking to tell him,it's a second rate option really because for him to loose weight things are not completely right,but it is doable . We are both really unsure buddy essentially the dynamic is wrong that is the crux of it. 

Real tricky mate these are ideas not solutions apart really from Shaz's thought,but you have had these guys a good while now so i'd imagine you don't really want to part with anyone. I think the girls are really the dominant force and for sure a female high group can work remember our great mate Glenn,he had female high group of leucs for ages,but suffered from egg eating,mind he never mentioned any problems with anyone losing weight. I'd certainly recomend a male high group mate it is working so well for me,but then all these frogs are individuals what is working so well here might be utterly meaningless elsewhere.

Best I can do mate and not completely happy with my help I guess another option is two leuc vivs?

Hmm I dunno bro i've sat on this all day musing and still not sure which is best apart from reducing number of females or a second viv.

Mate can you pin down a dominant female??? Have the bred yet must be old enough now??

best always dude

Stu


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## Meefloaf

The original two i got were a pair but arnt, never had a peep out of their tank. Second lot had one calling male and two suspected females, again no calling back and they are bigger than the male, so doubt a supressed male in there. As for any dominant, ive ever seen any aggro from them and none towards male, only coming up and eating with him, but i wouldnt say they were pushing him out etc. Think reducing female might be best idea. Bullying i find odd because there is a lass in there who has a dodgy leg, believe she caught it etc, she gets about and feeds well, she'd be seen as weak etc. My original musing hence the male idea was females pestering for loving etc aha


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## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> The original two i got were a pair but arnt, never had a peep out of their tank. Second lot had one calling male and two suspected females, again no calling back and they are bigger than the male, so doubt a supressed male in there. As for any dominant, ive ever seen any aggro from them and none towards male, only coming up and eating with him, but i wouldnt say they were pushing him out etc. Think reducing female might be best idea. Bullying i find odd because there is a lass in there who has a dodgy leg, believe she caught it etc, she gets about and feeds well, she'd be seen as weak etc. My original musing hence the male idea was females pestering for loving etc aha


Bro that is possible and I guess still a form of stress.but hey I wouldn't call leucs a frog that usually stress each other. Joe I've seen the hardest spats...scraps with my leucs both male on male female on female and breeding pile ups with all 5 involved. But harmony has always followed in no time,we have never had a worry with them and to that end I also rear consistently a couple,who grow well from tiny things while competing with five fully grown tubby adults,sure I help 'em,but all this points to this frog being cool with each other,in my particular experience. That also seems to follow with other keepers. 


Maybe little man just isn't so strong as the others,not a runt persay ,just not so strong,(point about the one with bad leg taken on board) and this isn't to do with bullying in any way just how it is. joe it's so tricky trying to read a situation when one can't actually see or know the frogs,basically i'm bunging all We can think of at ya. you maybe right more boys will dissapate attention towards him,it's just impossible to read what might happen,but there must be a reason why he lost weight mate. 

At the mo mate I think you should trust your ability as a keeper and follow your gut feeling while reading this situation. You' re a good keeper Joe you look hard they are in good hands. Mate i'm saying this 'cause i'm full of self doubt trusting my guts is not always an easy thing for me ,despite that it's probably my biggest asset as a keeper(plus shaz's eyes reinforcing something we have a need to react to). Having the confidence to go there is not always easy and sure I ain't perfect sometimes one gets it wrong,but I guess as one gets older one realizes the moves made are oft the best one could do.

Best o luck mate

Stu


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## soundstounite

Wow don't time fly:gasp:

Yesterday was a special day for Da dartroom,five years ago to the day Shaz and Stu became dart keepers,five little luecs became our first charges bless 'em and thank the lord all was well,we didn't kill 'em they thrived and grew up,all five are still here along with two more tiny things ,that they have reared in viv.
apart from the amount of graft i'm doing yesterday was also a tiny bit special, for another reason. "Brom leaf" that red head tad,whose leaf colapsed and I fed other eggs too in the vein hope I could save her is also still here. Much to my complete amazement I did save her she grew up big and strong also gorgeous too look at,I'm all but certain she became a proper mum yesterday and carried her first tads. We have had eggs before from this trio,but they didn't make it. Her fella is Puzzle he's a corking guy, he actually seems to come up to the front and shout at me it's really funny i've quacked back at him and a couple of times he has called back at me, god knows what this means other then the usual Stu lunacy. The other lass is dancer that one tad totally reared by me of the 3 I managed to morphout,sadly I lost the other two. So it's going to be quite fascinating to see how these guys fair breeding wise with both ladies being part or completely artificially reared.

It's been a five year blast keeping darts,thanks for all the help given over the years and the encouragement in the earlier days. We have learned a hell of a lot and obviously have much more still to take in,I still feel like i've just scratched the surface of what there is to know. We have been incredibly lucky sure we graft for that ,but luck is always a player,so few get given a chance to even keep large oophaga to have frogs we have reared now breeding is something one can only dream of .

We have cracked the summersi a struggle and also nailed virtually all other frogs we keep breeding wise...who would of thought that this little dream of mine as a lowly care worker to give shaz something to get her teeth into(while she is sick) and at least one room warn in our house to help with her arthritis could still be chugging along and us letting us see such amazing things . Shaz is pretty much doing all the graft now as my hours are so stupid and long even starting to cover looking after the feeders like iso and springs that were always my bag to deal with.

Cheers for everything folks

Stu


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## Cicindela

Congratulations. :2thumb: 
You, your help and the work that you and Shaz do , the posts, photos, info and humour- they always make me chuckle- are an inspiration to me and here's hoping for many many more.
Love ya :flrt::flrt::flrt:


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## Meefloaf

These guys stu https://m.facebook.com/groups/2209104907?view=permalink&id=10154573551049908&ref=content_filter


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## soundstounite

Just thought I'd wack this back up to the top. We are still here still have the room still have the frogs.


I guess i've done this simply to tell you all that 6 years ago yesterday we got our first frogs 5 little leucs,from there all this happened,but it's kinda cool to be able to say that those 5little guys are still here and doing ace, in fact we have a new lot of their kids on the go right now.


Special happenings of the last few weeks are the second kid arriving in our second RFB breeding viv,so cool to finally get that second lot going
Pums have been brill of late actually. We have had a female here called lemon (basti) we turned her from yellow to orange probably carrots but there might be more at play. anyway I recently gave her a fella and she has kicked right into gear,succesfully rearing 3 whom are doing great and now we have another just about to morph as we speak. But here the lovely bit,this pair seem to have the right gene combo to through more yellow than anything else in the kids,which is cool. We have never bred yellow kids before so this is really special they look really cool as tiny kids and already they are starting to come for their dinner,I love how are baby pums do this it's enchanting



Eveything is fine here frogwise,i'm way too busy hence the slow post rate and my disappearing from the fora

6years who would have thought huh: victory:

Stu

seeya

Stu


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## Arcadiajohn

Nice to see you back posting


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## soundstounite

Arcadiajohn said:


> Nice to see you back posting


So little time bro I am closing on another trade in 18 months. Work.s been harsh dude since me mate I cared for died. I simply haven't been able to post . But the rush the journey continues.

Mate what is really cool is so many of our little mates bought in those early days are still here,tincs have been our hardest to keep looking back with cold eyes. But all luecs auratus mysties,even one one very ancient summersi little man (he must be too old to be here now Darren had him a while before me has to be seven, Daz, if you shold read this any ideas( hey mate:2thumb??? 

With these years John,comes an afrirmation of some of the ideas in this thread. Some of our frogs for six years now have been cared for with methods mused and joked upon here:2thumb:.......they are thriving

Six year old luecs switched on a while bang good strong healthy tads froglets doing ace now will be shut down again slowly in a while. It sort of nice to be able to say these things john,not for me no credit there,but a new guy has a resource here warts an all,but now knows that some of this cobblers can keep a froggy doing ok for at least six years.


how ya doin' you good John? 

I'm still very much here in spirit,about to rush off now to check a special little spotty yellow thang.she'll morph very very soon John I need to be watching:2thumb:

and that is why posts will be sporadic, sadly, even if you guys so need to see what is kicking off:mf_dribble: it's not really a life I want much at this time bro,much is going on to change that ,but i'm a bloody slow learner,:bash:

hey ho

little yellow bastis:whistling2:..........red and orange(ok she was yellow:blush parents little yellow ones can#t believe it: victory:
little yellow bastis LMAO :flrt:

ha ha the excitment ain';t gone bro
just the time

belucky mate

Stu


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## soundstounite

Folks,as above apologies I post so little now,but the room is still here still working and the frogs are still that complete joy they always were,the bastis have been amazing of late,must try and share some pics.

For anyone following this and it appears even with my absence folks still read all this PLEASE READ THE NEXT BIT.

My racking from ali warehouse has pretty much been great, The tube we were sent is of a wonderful quality and has lasted well. i've always had some concerns about the connectors but so far so good. Of note though is a foot failiure ,which fortunately didn't cause too many problems,it appears things have changed though regarding the connectors.

I have been contacted by a member here recently the connectors now being supplied no longer seem fit for purpose. whereas the ones I bought all those years back fitted with a tight fit having to be hammered home,it appears something has changed. the connectors are no longer that tight fit in fact they are simply falling out of the tubes My mate can't even get replacements as everything at ali warehouse seems to be exactly the same they have been through boxes of them and are unable to supply tight fitting connectors. He also had two feet fail in the middle of last night and was there like me with a trolley jack playing a get out of jail card,thankfully all vivs and frogs seems ok.

Guys this is a big old thread,one couple showing as much of their experiences as possible as they learnt about keeping darts our mistakes the lot. sure I'm a mad old sod with a sense of humour always up for a crack,but behind that there is a very honest guy who desparately wants the next froggy keeper to have a good start I adore these little frogs . Simply this took much time I could have written a book proably and made a bit of dosh,but that wasn't the deal here. I wanted to give something back for the froggies to give the next guy a bit of help,maybe to get just one small kid and his or her dad together like phibs did me when I started as a kid.to try and show a way where money wasn't recourse to not have,if that kid would graft for it,he could have. 


Everything here has worked for us or where I have had problems I've tried to outline what I think might have been wrong. I've shown a way where a guy with not much really, dosh wise, can build vivs out of rubbish grow plants get wood, subs, leaves,etc for free. Shown a cheeper way of building a real nice looking rack to house it all in etc etc.

I no longer feel I can recomend these connectors I am deeply concerned that the product is not fit for purpose. We are dealing with lots of glass it is our primary source of material for viv building,sure there are other options but glass is still the most used viv building material throw in livestock ,our frogs and the racking has to be completely sound. There cannot be a question mark over these connectors,it is a fundamental that they do their job.

Things might change with time,but until I know they have and after hearing of the concerns raised by my fellow frogkeeper,I would urge anyone building a rack based on all this find an alternative on the connector side. As I say to the best of my knowledge the actual ali tube and its powdercoat (I think) covering are still sound but steer well clear of these connectors for the time being. 
As I say this has come from another he's aware I'm posting this and if he wants to chime in he is very welcome.

This whole madness is based on honesty,things that work for us an attempt to show the next guy one way of doing this. In no way is it the only way,i've great mates here , who do many things differently to me,we have some proper debates:2thumb: ,they are not wrong ,I'm not right. THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO KEEP DARTS it is one way that works for us. 

But if I'm going to share to this level and it seems folks still come here to grab bits and bobs as a resourse( the post count is still rising plus I get contacted) even in my absense. Then I feel duty bound to share this as I am no longer comfortable with the racking being made how I did it,or more specifically the use of these connectors.

Take care folks sorry a bit of a sad post and my heart goes out to the guy having these issues but I feel a deep need to share this before anyone else gets thrown into the same position. 

stu


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## loxocemus

may i suggest using plumbers thread tape around the connector prior to insertion, u could custom wrap the connector till u get the right fit, its cheap and easy to get.

rgds
ed



soundstounite said:


> Folks,as above apologies I post so little now,but the room is still here still working and the frogs are still that complete joy they always were,the bastis have been amazing of late,must try and share some pics.
> 
> For anyone following this and it appears even with my absence folks still read all this PLEASE READ THE NEXT BIT.
> 
> My racking from ali warehouse has pretty much been great, The tube we were sent is of a wonderful quality and has lasted well. i've always had some concerns about the connectors but so far so good. Of note though is a foot failiure ,which fortunately didn't cause too many problems,it appears things have changed though regarding the connectors.
> 
> I have been contacted by a member here recently the connectors now being supplied no longer seem fit for purpose. whereas the ones I bought all those years back fitted with a tight fit having to be hammered home,it appears something has changed. the connectors are no longer that tight fit in fact they are simply falling out of the tubes My mate can't even get replacements as everything at ali warehouse seems to be exactly the same they have been through boxes of them and are unable to supply tight fitting connectors. He also had two feet fail in the middle of last night and was there like me with a trolley jack playing a get out of jail card,thankfully all vivs and frogs seems ok.
> 
> Guys this is a big old thread,one couple showing as much of their experiences as possible as they learnt about keeping darts our mistakes the lot. sure I'm a mad old sod with a sense of humour always up for a crack,but behind that there is a very honest guy who desparately wants the next froggy keeper to have a good start I adore these little frogs . Simply this took much time I could have written a book proably and made a bit of dosh,but that wasn't the deal here. I wanted to give something back for the froggies to give the next guy a bit of help,maybe to get just one small kid and his or her dad together like phibs did me when I started as a kid.to try and show a way where money wasn't recourse to not have,if that kid would graft for it,he could have.
> 
> 
> Everything here has worked for us or where I have had problems I've tried to outline what I think might have been wrong. I've shown a way where a guy with not much really, dosh wise, can build vivs out of rubbish grow plants get wood, subs, leaves,etc for free. Shown a cheeper way of building a real nice looking rack to house it all in etc etc.
> 
> I no longer feel I can recomend these connectors I am deeply concerned that the product is not fit for purpose. We are dealing with lots of glass it is our primary source of material for viv building,sure there are other options but glass is still the most used viv building material throw in livestock ,our frogs and the racking has to be completely sound. There cannot be a question mark over these connectors,it is a fundamental that they do their job.
> 
> Things might change with time,but until I know they have and after hearing of the concerns raised by my fellow frogkeeper,I would urge anyone building a rack based on all this find an alternative on the connector side. As I say to the best of my knowledge the actual ali tube and its powdercoat (I think) covering are still sound but steer well clear of these connectors for the time being.
> As I say this has come from another he's aware I'm posting this and if he wants to chime in he is very welcome.
> 
> This whole madness is based on honesty,things that work for us an attempt to show the next guy one way of doing this. In no way is it the only way,i've great mates here , who do many things differently to me,we have some proper debates:2thumb: ,they are not wrong ,I'm not right. THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO KEEP DARTS it is one way that works for us.
> 
> But if I'm going to share to this level and it seems folks still come here to grab bits and bobs as a resourse( the post count is still rising plus I get contacted) even in my absense. Then I feel duty bound to share this as I am no longer comfortable with the racking being made how I did it,or more specifically the use of these connectors.
> 
> Take care folks sorry a bit of a sad post and my heart goes out to the guy having these issues but I feel a deep need to share this before anyone else gets thrown into the same position.
> 
> stu


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## soundstounite

loxocemus said:


> may i suggest using plumbers thread tape around the connector prior to insertion, u could custom wrap the connector till u get the right fit, its cheap and easy to get.
> 
> rgds
> ed



Ed yup I guess ptfe tape,( that's what you mean isn't it?....) and the thicker one at that would help.


But it kinda skirts around the point of the post,the ones I bought were a damn tight fit the ones available now fall out of the tube.

If we buy something brand new it should be fit for purpose,simple as,we shouldn't really have to start bodging things (used in the best sense of the word bro, not having a pop I'm grateful you posted:2thumb with tape it should fit properly,I had to hammer everything home,even bought their hammer which did the job well.

Ed,racks can be any size two viv to thrirty as the vivs get added more and more weight does. although I think what you are saying is a plausible workaround I have deep concerns now with these connectors .

Mate I bought two vivs way before frogs,they were broken and I felt that they would make a good start for me building my skillset . Those vivs came to be because a guys rack failed it actually fell over,he gave up mate couldn't face going through all this again. Ed it's the worst horror story can you imagine coming home to a rack that has failed broken glass all ways and most of all our precious frogs,I won't go further mate it's a terrible senario I wouldn't wish on any frog keeper.


If avoiding a product that is of concern, that is bought brand new !!! saves one frogkeeper that hardship ,not to mention the frogs themselves and their suffering,then the post was worth it.

I'm the guy that does find work arounds this whole thread is based on those,but here we shouldn't be looking for a work around we should be buying something that works and if there is a concern our fellow members should know before buying and before any preventable issues arise

take care Ed cheers for chiming in much appreciated mate:2thumb:

stu


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## lozmick

Evening stu

Just thought I'd hijack on here and let you know the three leucs I got from you are doing awesome so active so grateful for you writing all these posts as well as the pm's you did for me full of advice I love these little dudes although they are growing like weeds. I feel like I should get more little ones when funds allow these really are a joy to watch so just to say thank you for being a top bloke selling good strong animals (culture seem to be doing ok) as well. 

Regards Mick


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## loxocemus

well there is another way, which iv done but its a pain in the butt,
drill a hole through the tube with connector inserted and rivet thru,
its good but its sorta permanent, u have to drill out the rivet to undo things,
but it only works on hollow connectors, not the solid core ones. but it doesn't look bad though.

i wonder why they would change a part spec like that, it makes no sense. also wonder if other sources has different spec parts or they collectively buy from the same few sources.

rgds and good luck.
ed



soundstounite said:


> Ed yup I guess ptfe tape,( that's what you mean isn't it?....) and the thicker one at that would help.
> 
> 
> But it kinda skirts around the point of the post,the ones I bought were a damn tight fit the ones available now fall out of the tube.
> 
> If we buy something brand new it should be fit for purpose,simple as,we shouldn't really have to start bodging things (used in the best sense of the word bro, not having a pop I'm grateful you posted:2thumb with tape it should fit properly,I had to hammer everything home,even bought their hammer which did the job well.
> 
> Ed,racks can be any size two viv to thrirty as the vivs get added more and more weight does. although I think what you are saying is a plausible workaround I have deep concerns now with these connectors .
> 
> Mate I bought two vivs way before frogs,they were broken and I felt that they would make a good start for me building my skillset . Those vivs came to be because a guys rack failed it actually fell over,he gave up mate couldn't face going through all this again. Ed it's the worst horror story can you imagine coming home to a rack that has failed broken glass all ways and most of all our precious frogs,I won't go further mate it's a terrible senario I wouldn't wish on any frog keeper.
> 
> 
> If avoiding a product that is of concern, that is bought brand new !!! saves one frogkeeper that hardship ,not to mention the frogs themselves and their suffering,then the post was worth it.
> 
> I'm the guy that does find work arounds this whole thread is based on those,but here we shouldn't be looking for a work around we should be buying something that works and if there is a concern our fellow members should know before buying and before any preventable issues arise
> 
> take care Ed cheers for chiming in much appreciated mate:2thumb:
> 
> stu


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## soundstounite

Lozmick geckos said:


> Evening stu
> 
> Just thought I'd hijack on here and let you know the three leucs I got from you are doing awesome so active so grateful for you writing all these posts as well as the pm's you did for me full of advice I love these little dudes although they are growing like weeds. I feel like I should get more little ones when funds allow these really are a joy to watch so just to say thank you for being a top bloke selling good strong animals (culture seem to be doing ok) as well.
> 
> Regards Mick



hijack away Mick,cool to see the old girl(thread) being used to help folks along and I'm thrilled they are doing well cool little guys aren't they mate:2thumb:

Wait till the calling starts Mick you'll love that they vibrate whole body fab to watch and hear.

Buddy sorry slow in reply too many hours being worked at this time,always shout if ya need us 

All the luck,oh cheers for the kind words above you are utterly welcome mate


stu


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## soundstounite

loxocemus said:


> well there is another way, which iv done but its a pain in the butt,
> drill a hole through the tube with connector inserted and rivet thru,
> its good but its sorta permanent, u have to drill out the rivet to undo things,
> but it only works on hollow connectors, not the solid core ones. but it doesn't look bad though.
> 
> i wonder why they would change a part spec like that, it makes no sense. also wonder if other sources has different spec parts or they collectively buy from the same few sources.
> 
> rgds and good luck.
> ed



Hey Ed hope ya good mate:2thumb:

,I dunno kiddo,although the connectors I had were never the strongest not being metal lined which would be my pref,they did fit well. As I say I've not even seen these new ones,why a change the spec beats me mate not a clue.

The main thing is folks are now aware if they see this note,thanks to the guy that alerted me. Which means they can make a more educated choice if they want to go for this type of racking

thanks muchly Ed

Stu


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## lozmick

The calling has started from one of them yesterday when I was misting made me jump out of my bloody skin as didn't expect calling for a few more months yet. Fascinating to hear and watch.


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## soundstounite

Lozmick geckos said:


> The calling has started from one of them yesterday when I was misting made me jump out of my bloody skin as didn't expect calling for a few more months yet. Fascinating to hear and watch.


Ha ha brilliant,I think they do this deliberately to me Mick,leave here and start calling.Obviously the move to a new gaff bring territoral behaviours and hence that calls go with that as the males stake their claims,but it's a pain when one has a load of leucs and someone is after a confirmed male. 

Mick our breeders when kids used to call in the night,I'm sure there is a post in this thread about a leuc caling at midnight,it seems they don't do this so much as they get older and calling is largely confined to the day,leastways that's how the group we keep have gone along. But that was a hell of a surprise at the time,so cool but utterly not what we expected from a diurnal frog.

The thing that's always amazed me mate is just how much if going on on a dart frogs head,phibs are quite a simple basic life form in many ways yet they seem so inteligent for a humble frog,i've always mused this might be tied into the level of parental care they have,I dunno mate,I do know if ya look hard you'll see this

all the luck with them kiddo

Stu


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## lozmick

Well I'm that happy with my leucs I've decided they need a new bigger gaff so I'm currently working on a 90w x 45 d x 60 h for them custom background and sides bio active live plants and some sort of water feature thinking of a waterfall into a stream over pebbles but only a couple of mm deep.


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## soundstounite

Lozmick geckos said:


> Well I'm that happy with my leucs I've decided they need a new bigger gaff so I'm currently working on a 90w x 45 d x 60 h for them custom background and sides bio active live plants and some sort of water feature thinking of a waterfall into a stream over pebbles but only a couple of mm deep.


Mick not to kick the wind out of you sails, it's wicked you are thinking like this,i'm thrilled bro......but think hard on the waterfall. buddy I have no experience to draw upon,but have seen a fair few folks struggle over the years really go into this bit of your build with eyes wide open and very researched.

all the luck buddy

Stu


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## Meefloaf

Glad to see you're still at it bud 

Joe


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## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> Glad to see you're still at it bud
> 
> Joe


Hey buddy,how ya doing bro? all our love to Paula.

Yup very much still here joe,just working stupid hours so barely post . Bred some gorgeous little yellow cems Joe of late

Great to hear from ya mate we were talking about you both recently,not much fun of late mate but needs must I guess

belucky bro

stu


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## Meefloaf

Hey man, love to you guys too. Well you remember the issues I had with the orange terribs I bought (3 young died within day of getting) i lost my other 3 within a week (not in same viv obv) and unfortunately everything else soon followed. Just as I'd spent a ton of cash on the big vivs, rocks etc. Gutted mate, I basically hid away in my room as Paula n her dad emptied the vivs and the room. I'll never forget one of the older terribs was on his last breaths, just slumped there.

Apart from that I got a better job and on better money at sainsburys now and life in general is pretty okay aha.

Hope you and Shaz are keeping well and work isn't killing you too much


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## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> Hey man, love to you guys too. Well you remember the issues I had with the orange terribs I bought (3 young died within day of getting) i lost my other 3 within a week (not in same viv obv) and unfortunately everything else soon followed. Just as I'd spent a ton of cash on the big vivs, rocks etc. Gutted mate, I basically hid away in my room as Paula n her dad emptied the vivs and the room. I'll never forget one of the older terribs was on his last breaths, just slumped there.
> 
> Apart from that I got a better job and on better money at sainsburys now and life in general is pretty okay aha.
> 
> Hope you and Shaz are keeping well and work isn't killing you too much


ahh bro i'm so so sorry jees mate that is one rough ride.

when you say every thing else can you be more specific Joe ,not the whole collection???

Yeah mate back in new build I do all the silicone work ha ha I'm told I'm good. tried to learn me trade with a local guy in the village absolute scum mate he ripped us around a hundred new ones.

Finally I lost it one day turned into a green rage monster( mind I don't like me when I'm that guy). but funny as half the village curtain twitching as I f*cked him up hill and down dale rather loudly.:devil:

Withing weeks of a new start I am earning over double,i've had the odd exceptional days when I nailed a weeks work of pay in a day with the scum . But man I'm killing the hours most weeks 60plus hence the slow reply mate nowt more,than that I just ain't getting to the pc much 

Oh mate little lamasi is calling his head off might just get some joy there ,we haven't bred them yet have a couple of pums (cems) laid today maybe they'll carry we'll see .

Mate until chrimo it will be insane the house builders smash a load through so their books look good for the shareholders so if replies are slow please forgive,it really is insane I have folks begging me to wok for them the craftmanship is starting to show but I want out asap maybe pull this back to a few days so I can have a life again,but as always we'll see:mf_dribble:

merry chrimbo mate

stu


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