# No criminal



## Heavenlyhogs

Any futher slander in this forum will be taken up with my solicitor.
Heres the proof read it carefully.
I did not import illegally as such and i have NO criminal record.
There is no ringworm picture only eczema which can be confirmed by other sufferers aswell as my doctor.







From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 09:01:55 +0000
CC: 
Subject: Response to your Query : - RefWOE000088235 - african pygmy hedgehogs (Atelerix albiventris)

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your email of 05 June.

I can confirm that Defra does not set specific requirements for transport of African Pygmy Hedgehogs, however the transport of all animals is governed by the Animal Welfare Act. 
I hope this is helpful. 
Yours sincerely,

Customer Contact Unit *Defra*

Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra)​


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## Heavenlyhogs

so if my being a convicted criminal is lies and the fact that i DONT have ringworm among so many other things time to wonder what else is lies...
The 4 week old hoglet(pickles)had staph and many DECENT breeders have had this problem.My vet can confirm this.
For anyone with ANY knowledge of ringworm you will know it can come from anywhere and is as common as a cold and easily put right.Please do your homework on this.


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## Ragmoth

I have no idea what this is all about Heavenly, but you are quite right about ringworm. My step-dad caught ringworm from contaminated soil off his allotment! 

I hope you are ok x


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## Heavenlyhogs

This is proof i did not intentionally break the law neither was i prosecuted.
Ringworm it is true are microscopic spores that are often airborne and in effect can come from anywhere,the school playground,your dog,your cat,other pets,soil,the ground it is around us all the time everywhere and is an oppurtunist fungai.


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## Heavenlyhogs

I MAINTAIN i love all my animals and breed to the best of my abilities but things don't always go to plan despite the best intentions,this senario seems pretty set up to me.despite having filthy rich parents i have got by by myself and dont run to mummy or daddy for handouts.I was raised better than that.:2thumb:

But as a lesson from this all future hoglets will be PRECAUTIONARILY treated for all manner of ailments.
At least i can hold my head high and say none of my hoglets have been born with deformaties and i will not mention any names thus avoiding the level of those involved who had this problem due to inbreeding and are involved in the slander.But it goes to show you will not always have 100% satisfaction no matter what you do from 100% of people.

And i have not been banned from purchasing pedigree gliders lol.
Anyway enough said 
anyone who wants a hoglet in the future are welcome to visit me in my home which btw is undergoing massive redecoration and refurbishment(for the next tenants) which would explain why it isnt the palace that was expected lol
As forthe sofa myanimals are not allowed on the furniture,and this couple were inmy home for the best part of an hour with julie very relaxed and sat back in that same sofa lol.It's tattiness is down to my 2 disabled wild kids.We don't see the need to buy a new one until we have moved in the next few weeks,which is also why all the carpets are up and the furniture is stored.

OVER & OUT


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## Chazybabe

*Also Defra state:*

*What does the Animal Welfare Act do? *

It makes owners and keepers responsible for ensuring that the welfare needs of their animals are met. 
These include the need: 

For a suitable environment (place to live)
For a suitable diet
To exhibit normal behaviour patterns
To be housed with, or apart from, other animals (if applicable)
To be protected from pain, injury, suffering and disease
All details found here:
Defra, UK - Animal Health and Welfare - Animal Welfare - Animal Welfare Act

This is a photo of my hog as you sold him to me









I was not informed about the injury at all before you delivered him and he should not of been sold in this condition. Was also given no treatment for it.

At 4 weeks old you told me of his skin complaint, heres a photo









You also said he woud be sold with the vets records of it, a birth certificate made by you, his pedigree reg, free pet insurance for 6 weeks, a igloo house, a gaurentee, a fleece and some of his current food. 

All you brought was banged up Pickle a fleece and a box of cat biscuits, nothing else. So was sold under false pretences and is against trading standereds.

It has everything to do with this forum as this is where i purchased him from and where she gained my trust and this is where you sell to unknowing trusting people.

I now have ring worm heres a photo of this and of Julies too.

Julies









Mine









Close up of Julies









On the other thread someone said Julies dates were all wrong for her and her step daughter to catch it, but how have i got it too? I have never met Julie or Ian.

We have all had it confirmed on our hogs and on us that this is ringworm the hogs have been tested and Leo (Julie & Ians hoglet) also internal worm infestation, and seeing Pickle produces nice green poos and is on a diet of only cat food i got a feeling when i get the results tomorrow he will be riddled with worms to which means another trip into Glouster from Clevedon.. Treatment is not cheap neither is transport as i do not drive and this is the closest exotic vet that deals with APH's.

Ring worm is often diagnosed as Infected Eczema aswel as other things as alot of doctors have either not seen ringworm or diagnose it wronly as there are diffrent types and unless your clued up on it in particular your not going to know doctor or not, where vets on the other hand come across it alot.

Here is the picture of your hand. Even if this is Eczema surely you wouldnt be handling them bare hands like you did when i collected mine as not to catch germs from there poo as Pickle was covered in it and so was your hands. If your hands are that bad as they obviously are in the picture surely Pickle at 4 weeks should not been held in the photo above with his skin complaint..










Pickle instead of living like this

















Now lives in basic conditions like this









For 5 weeks maybe more he will stay like that just the bare minimal
And will also be held like this 








With very limited human contact as i will not risk giving it to my other animals which there is alot of and as a mouse breeder will have to personally keep mice back for a quartine period before selling any to make sure time elapses and that any signs would be present.

Shell i never slated you i wondered about things like his nose, hell i even posted in this forum on your thread about friendly litter that i was happy and i WAS i let the nose thing slide as i wanted to belive you were a good breeder and that it was nothing. Just a glitch (one of them things).

I even stood up for you and have had posts removed off this site and others, also slated other people and hedgehog breeders for having a go at you, but i realised they were right, im not trying to sound mean shell its just they tried giving you advise and help but you shoved it back in there faces.

I liked you and thought you were a nice person i might not agree with the way you do things and all the lies but i dont think your a purposely bad person and didnt go out of your way to do any of this its just the things you did and not taking the advice of others led to this..

If we had met in different circumstances i would still be a fan, but im sad to say currently im not, as iv just had to part with my limited funds, im 18 been ill for 6 years dont work as am unable to and all my money goes on my pets as it is, now i wont be doing xmas as il be doing treatments and hog bathing, thats just aslong as the many other animals i own do not catch it.

You said you would re emberse me for my vet bill for Pickles treatment will you please try and make amense and still do this please? I dont want to start a war or a slang match iv just stated facts but i would ike your help now in paying for his treatment in turn so i can get Pickle the best care he needs and make a little unhappy hog happy again.

Chaz.


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## pgag_1_york

who said you were a convicted criminal? we all know you were done for not having a TV licence tho :whistling2:

just find it funny how you called me unethical for homing hog based on email and phone calls but you do the same thing yourself, what happened to practice what you preach?

fact is you didn't inform the owner of the hoglet who had staph or mention the fact he had a open wound on his nose till he was delivered

2 of your hoglets you sold have been confirmed with having ringworm and you did nothing to help the ppl you sold to other than blame them for it any responsible breeder would be doing anything in there power to help not trying to lie there way out of it,

they didn't even go with care sheets or anything stated in your ads ie insurance and CBs was not registered

you have been makin a point of slaggin me off on various forum for ages now and iv not bothered to post on them - take your sick pet names topic - and look no1 agreed with you there, all of you bitchin on the glider forum only got me put on the recommended breeder list, so thanks for that :2thumb:

if the only unethical thing you can say about me is a cpl of my hogs name just jog on luv

you can say what you want but you have 2 very unhappy ppl who got hoglets from you so well done for doing things to the best of your abilities great job

also funny how you get a topic closed for having nothing to with the forum but then just start another!

funny how you have alienated yourself from most of the hog and glider community from lies isnt it


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## Heavenlyhogs

sorry rich youre blocked cant see what ya saying.
Chaz i have correspondance here between yourself and i notifying you of everything and offering to pay for pickles treatment(i can post it all if you like) which you agreed to.My listing on hedgehog breeding list was modified months ago but not yet put in place by them,so i'm afraid that's not as it is now and therefor trading standards is irrelevant to that listing.
When i met you with pickle you never expressed any concern over the scuff on his nose which had scabbed over when delivered...you had only paid a small deposit,if you were so concerned why take him knowing if there were possible problems that you couldnt afford vet fees?Why take on extra responsibility?
Why not express your unhappyness to meinstead of going and behind my back thats a little underhanded no?
You need to all get a grip on ringworm and read up.


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## Heavenlyhogs

and im pretty sure if that was a serious injury on his nose he wouldnt be looking so good in the last pic with no visible scarring...


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## Chazybabe

Maybe you should wait untill you are setlled in your new home and have the resources so instead of saying your selling a hoglet with this that and the other but turn up on the train with nothing but a blanket so he didnt freeze and a box of cat biscuits. Then no one would complain you miss sold, or dont say that the hogs come with these things in the first place or notify them on the change of plan so they can choose to go through with the purchase or not i didnt have much choice by the time the hog had travelled 4 hours worth in a train and was faced with him and you i couldnt exactly say go back and get the rest of the things! And i wasnt going to send Pickle away again im a big softy and couldnt do that to him make him travell another 4 hours back for something that wasnt his fault.

At the end of the day the hogs come 1st putting aside everything else its in the hogs interests we do the best for them now you MAINTAIN you love your animals so whether you dislike me for being brutaly honest please as his breeder and a animal lover your self can we put are problems aside and refund me the £150 as i paid £150 for a happy healthy hoglet, not one that is going to cost more in vet bills than he cost bless him! 

This way the more money i have to spare the more tests i can have done to really get to the bottom of this and pay for the best money can buy. That way we will all be safe in the knowledge that my hoglet will not be infecting anyother people/pets and that it will also point out any unknown problems in your own herd if theres anything else that could of been passed on.

Im not having ago Shell im to concerned about Pickle to be angry or to waste time and piss you off with squabling, i just want to be able to at least hug my hog not watch him at a distance its unbearable!


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## Heavenlyhogs

i was always hygenic when handling anyhoglets and the time the condition was bad i hardly handled them at all and when i did my hand was either plastered or bandaged...in fact when ian and julie collected leo i held the hoglet in the uneffected hand.And it is eczema and that's been confirmed by a doctor very very familiar with it.If it was anything else it would not be gone now would it because the antibiotics i was on would have had no effect.


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## Heavenlyhogs

i have offered to cover the treatment chaz to clear the ringworm and since there's no evidence it came from my home this is generous,if you hadnt have gone about this the way you did chaz and come to me first you know what? i would have happily given you a FULL refund.
And i sent you an email to tell you i wouldbe sending pickle christmas presents which would have included the things you mentioned were missing.


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## Heavenlyhogs

You have ALL Pickles vet history authorised for release to your own vet.


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## Chazybabe

1) i never said it was bad ect ect (his nose that is) i just said i wasnt told of his scab at all before you brough him down.

2) I can afford vet bills, just not to buy friends and family anything, i get £100 a week and its all going on Pickle atm his current bill for todays was £57 that means im not having any left over for me for xmas as i stated, as in a 3 weeks he will be back to the vet which will cost more again so the money i have saved in the mean time will be going on this as well as the norm things like food ect and im lucky that my parents would pay but i want dont want them to, im asking you as his breeder to make a example of how much you care and remburse me so i can pay for extras liek skin scraps not just treatment for the obvious but actually find out which type it is ect which will help!

3) Im not going behind your back i seeked other views opinions and facts off others as to widen my knowledge in APH which i think is a good thing to do. When i look into buying even a pair of hair straightners i dont just go for the 1st ones i tend to look at all the pros and cons and ask others in the no not just 1 person. (hair straightners are the only example i can think of at half 2am! as i can see them lol!)

4) I already liked him and had some photos of him form you as he was growing up i was already in love with him im a soppy 18yo you expect me to turn down the cutest bundle ever and make it travel for 4hours when hes already stressed and covered in poo as he didnt travel well? No i was liek a over broody woman just wanting to take him there and then.

5) I had no idea of the nose thing before you came and i did ask when i saw it, well no you told me before you even got him out the carry case i then asked how it was caused if it was ok ect.. to which you said it was a rub from rooting under food bowl and was fine and would just drop off (the scab not his nose that is!!) But when i posted on a forum saying look at my gawjus new baby people started saying how did he get that and it looked serious so obvioulsy i worried!! And sought advice. Scab then came off and all is fine, all im saying is should have said before selling. Not there and then as im handing you my cash.

Iv got a grip of ringworm im hating that word so much! Iv read and read so much in the last week on it i could probably tell you in my sleep! 

I dont care that i have something for some one thats been ill since she can remember i dont really care its that i dont want to give it to friends as at my age its not going to go down well with a bunch of other teenagers! And i dont want to have to treat all the pets! As then i would be over stretched which most people would be having to treat all at once theres not many that could afford that! I could just but that would be it just that nothing else for a while!


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## Heavenlyhogs

For the record i have NEVER stated my hogs will be uk reg.
ALL my hogs ARE reg internationally.And yes they do come with birth certificate which will be fowarded to you.


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## Chazybabe

I never said they would be uk reg i just said reg wether it be USA or Irish i really dont mind but i had none of any kind.

So you dont want Pickle to get the best treatment then? As i can afford to treatment but i want to cover all areas and tests so i know hes had everything possible done for him, as hes like a child to me, im sure you would be the same with your children.

Also at this rate the vet bills will be MORE than £150 so in my eyes full refund if fair as other wise you could be paying alot more.

Where was this advert changed to? Please may you send the link.

And Shell this is about Pickle, iv not said you have a criminal record im not saying your hosue is this that and the other, im not slating you, i just want the same as i hope you do and thats finding out why Pickle is ILL!


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## Heavenlyhogs

I understand that Chaz of course you want varied opinion but as pickles breeder i should have been informed of how unhappy you were with things.I should have been 2nd in line to the vet.That's what i'm saying.


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## Chazybabe

When i realised that Julie had had a problem with ringworm and you emailed and asked if i had i said yes as i had this rash no idea what it was and then it all clicked, the fact that pickle was all flakey i had tried bathing ect but hadnt got any better i asked you on advice for this you said it was prob just quilling and he should be ok as none of yours had symptoms and should of if Pickle or the other hog Leo had ringworm thing is they do just its hard to notice on something covered in spines, so you said to just bath him with oatsoap or something? But when this doesnt work and im wondering what else i can do after iv asked and tried you and your suggestion i thought id ask others. Wasnt so much underhand but in need of help and my vet didnt even no there was such a thing as a APH! Hence the ong trip to a vet that did!


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## Heavenlyhogs

Of course i care about his welfare and well being why the hell would i even be bothering with this if i wasn't.
Paying for his treatment is fair unless it's without a doubt it came from here.
Any futher testing ect is down to you.
You will need to send me the vets receipts.


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## Heavenlyhogs

usually vite oil oatmeal is recommended for dry skin.
Have you asked hedgehogcentral about this,they are far more clued up because they have been keepers longer....
As stated although there's nothing to confirm where this originated from i'm still happy to help...and i think this is best sorted off the forums now...or it could go on forever.


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## Chazybabe

Will a copy of the reciept be ok? As would like a copy for myself too and only have the 1, as its a card receipt as had to get my dad to pay for todays as i did a womans best trait and forgot my purse as was running around like crazy as my doc appointment was late so then i was late for vets!! 

Do you have the link for the changed advert please so i can check it out? And i still think i should of been told about his nose? 

Your other hogs or pets must be infected because lets say that Julie and Ian brought it into your house and then gave it to Pickle as you state its airbore which means would be in your hosue and so there fore im pressuming as your hogs are stacked together that the other hogs would be closest to the infected 2 so could have a high risk and being unnoticable because of the quills.. 

Or your cat/dog? as they have free roam and not caged i presume? And just because you cant see it doesnt mean they dont have it? Have they been checked yet?


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## Heavenlyhogs

Also chaz you mention Pickles had no treatment for the scuff on his nose.These scapes are fairly common and people often treat with recommended solutions/creams if a vet isn't necessary and the injury isn't serious...jesus!!!!!!!!


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## Chazybabe

What about Leo and current/future hog of yours? If were telling you we think theres a risk no matter who gave to whom should you not be helping them too and your own? As lengthly phone conversation just doesnt work for ringworm i tried that the 1st time round with my gp and they cant tell as theres all kinds of rashes ect! And they can only treat/diagnose what they can see/test for. So the phone does nothing.

I rang south beech veterinary surgery... the vets you took Pickle to, they have 'an interest' in exotics, but are not 'specialists' and they DO NOT give out medication to any animal whether on their books or not without a consultation!! - The only deviation to this is routine wormers (not ringworm treatments) and flea treatments for animals already registered and seen within the past 12 months! 

So i dont see how they could of helped you by phone for this problem or get wormers ect with out them seeing your hogs as you have not had them 12months


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## Chazybabe

Heavenlyhogs said:


> Also chaz you mention Pickles had no treatment for the scuff on his nose.These scapes are fairly common and people often treat with recommended solutions/creams if a vet isn't necessary and the injury isn't serious...jesus!!!!!!!!


He had no treatment as you said none was neccasary! (ignore bad spelling im over tired and stressed) So i took nine as after all your the breeder and no best? Yes it wasnt serious BUT thats NOT THE POINT! Argh! *rips hair out*

All im saying is you should of said Pickles now fine its the point of you not saying about it, is wrong! It could of got infected as and then would of been! And i wouldnt of known any different if it had of been as i would of thought nah the breeder said he be fine..! And i thought it was common and was fine but it was everyone else that said yes scrapes but not full blown huge scabs that are the size of a small pizza!


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## Heavenlyhogs

The scuff on his nose was not serious and didn't need to be treated as such.
I have stated hedgehog central have been sent several requests asking for the add to be updated as i decided not to ship...and wanted to change a few other things.
My vet advised i treat as a precaution.
Let's say the kids brought it home from school or the cat or the dog brought it in....the possibilities are endless.
Yep just send the receipt to me for his ringworm treatment and i will cover it.


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## Heavenlyhogs

i used an anti bacterial solution on the scuff used by vets and recommended by mine...maybe i should have been clearer on it when we met:bash:


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## Heavenlyhogs

maybe they refered to oral medications not been given out...but i have been given ringworm treatment.
Same as frontline or any other type treatment used on fur ect...you wouldn't necessarily see a vet when an animal has fleas,worms ect for example.you vet will often recommend what to use without consultation.


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## pgag_1_york

Heavenlyhogs said:


> The scuff on his nose was not serious and didn't need to be treated as such.
> I have stated hedgehog central have been sent several requests asking for the add to be updated as i decided not to ship...and wanted to change a few other things.
> My vet advised i treat as a precaution.
> Let's say the kids brought it home from school or the cat or the dog brought it in....the possibilities are endless.
> Yep just send the receipt to me for his ringworm treatment and i will cover it.


there you go not to difficult to admit the problem could have come from you was it!

nose rub in a hog wouldnt really result in that kind of injury let alone a scab of that size! unless the problem wasnt sorted within the first 24/48 hours of it occurring


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## Chazybabe

Heavenlyhogs said:


> The scuff on his nose was not serious and didn't need to be treated as such.
> I have stated hedgehog central have been sent several requests asking for the add to be updated as i decided not to ship...and wanted to change a few other things.
> My vet advised i treat as a precaution.
> Let's say the kids brought it home from school or the cat or the dog brought it in....the possibilities are endless.
> Yep just send the receipt to me for his ringworm treatment and i will cover it.


 

As such i didnt know you had treated it or needed treating.

Woah hang on hedgehog central? I didnt buy from there i bought from a add on here i even get it up for you this hasnt been changed so i bought what i thought was everything that the add states. I was not a member of HC at the time and did not know it had been listed differently else where?! So i there for was sold wrongly or at the least wasnt told any different i even have emails saying what i would be getting so changing a add on another site makes no difference i had it personaly sent to me by you what i was getting.


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## Heavenlyhogs

I offered ian and julie help when they first contacted me,i offered to cover their vet bills,i stillhave ALL correspondance with regards to this and they refused and got really nasty about it in the end and because of this and their previous post here no i wont be offering them help.That post was slanderous,full of lies ect and i'm seeking legal advise on that paticular post and any others where deemed necessary.
I have copies of ALL posts made so i have proof these things were said and all correspondances down to threats and blackmail through this forums pm's.
It's up to those in a court of law to prove their statements not for me to disprove them.


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## Heavenlyhogs

I offered ian and julie help when they first contacted me,i offered to cover their vet bills,i stillhave ALL correspondance with regards to this and they refused and got really nasty about it in the end and because of this and their previous post here no i wont be offering them help.That post was slanderous,full of lies ect and i'm seeking legal advise on that paticular post and any others where deemed necessary.
I have copies of ALL posts made so i have proof these things were said and all correspondances down to threats and blackmail through this forums pm's.
It's up to those in a court of law to prove their statements as they have been made not for me to disprove them.


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## Heavenlyhogs

I offered ian and julie help when they first contacted me,i offered to cover their vet bills,i still have ALL correspondance with regards to this and they refused and got really nasty about it in the end and because of this and their previous post here no i wont be offering them help.That post was slanderous,full of lies ect and i'm seeking legal advise on that paticular post and any others where deemed necessary.
I have copies of ALL posts made so i have proof these things were said and all correspondances down to threats and blackmail through this forums pm's.
It's up to those in a court of law to prove their statements as they have been made not for me to disprove them.


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## Chazybabe

You said you changed the add on HC about what you were selling with the hogs but thats not the add i replied and was buying into and you emailed me personaly and told me the items i would be getting so is still miss sold as far as im aware? As i wasnt even a member on HC when you posted adds for the babies!


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## Chazybabe

Heavenlyhogs said:


> maybe they refered to oral medications not been given out...but i have been given ringworm treatment.
> Same as frontline or any other type treatment used on fur ect...you wouldn't necessarily see a vet when an animal has fleas,worms ect for example.you vet will often recommend what to use without consultation.


But its a oral treatment for ringworm for the hogs!

No good using something for fur on hogs as how do you plan on rubbing it into the skin on there backs?

There is no buy over the counter and rub in stuff for ring worm as far as im aware hence have to go through vet as its not as easy as "ah yes flea dirt..so its fleas"


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## Heavenlyhogs

*with regards to ian and julie when they first brought this to my attention i offered to pay their vet fees which they declined and due to their other post which was inaccurate,deflamatory and unecessary the help wont be offered again.*
*I intend to seek legal advise for all such posts made which i have copies of along with all correspondance,threats and blackmail via pm which were were sent to me which i still have saved through this forum It wont be for me to disprove the statements it will be for them to prove them in a court of law.*
*over and out*


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## Heavenlyhogs

Chaz they do not always use oral treatment for ringworm.


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## Heavenlyhogs

so an igloo and something else was missing...you were told they would be sent on.
out


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## Chazybabe

Well black mail pms ect have nothing to do with me or what iv just asked/qouated so can you answer my Qs and not tell me your taking action as i know iv done nothing wrong as iv not said a bad thing against you, 1 im more interested in sorting out hogs and meds and making sure yours, Leo, Pickle and other hogs get the treatment they need/deserve and 2) im not stupid enough to say anything incrimnating on something that can be traced. (not saying that anyone else has as i cant see where others went wrong, maybe they approached it more angrily) where as im not, i dont have the energy or the health to do so..


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## Chazybabe

So its faulse advertising and selling. Small thing or not its still a big deal, havnt got it dont say your selling it simple as.

Also on a hog its Oral due to not being able to treat them any other way the bath treatment i have and Ian and Julie have is to help the skin and help heal/protect.

And im sorry but how do you expect people with ring worm to react? Maybe they were wrong to be angry ect, maybe they had a right to, maybe you were wrong by retaliating? But instead of passing blame...

Maybe we should all just think of them..



















At the end of the day you can/we can all bitch but its these guys suffering due to are neglect by being at our pcs so much!

Well Ian, Julie and me are ok as we cant go near our hogs more than need be but surely you shoudl be with yours?


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## Chazybabe

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/other-pets-exotics/214192-pics-3-out-4-suggies-6.html#post2888456

In this topic you are wondering where this person is getting his hogs from.. and then you say germany..well whats wrong with that you did!!!!

Also you quarentined them at home? Well thats not much quarentine when there all sharing the same room with other pets too, and hasnt been 6months or how ever long. And did you think about the fact that this shop you been to in the link you might be getting ringworm from them?? as doubt they were quarentined and germany has alot of it about also that if they havnt you could of just given it to them! As you could be carrying it around!


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## Heavenlyhogs

This is my last reply as i have children to take care of at 7am.
I'm not the 1 passing blame...but unless due to the nature of ringworm i think my stance has been a pretty patient one.
You're complaining over an igloo Chaz..i'll send you one.You were told stuff would be sent for Pickle for Christmas,you were happy with that and until tonight had no complaints after all this time of having pickle?
If the only way to treat ringworm on hedgies included oral meds then why has my vet over looked this?Does ANYONE involved in all this ACTUALLY know anything about ringworm?and if so in hedgies?
I have spoken to numerous breeders/keepers/recuers and am pretty clued up on it now.Did you read the thread in hedgehogcentral?

goodnight


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## Chazybabe

Yes yes and yes, so your saying i know nothing of hogs then why the hell you sell me one? And yes i know ring worm as do my family as my farther is a farmers son and i work with horses.. and i have google and a gp oh and a vet..you have other random people telling you what its like im better of i got it 1st hand, well arm..!!


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## Heavenlyhogs

Chaz nothing is wrong with getting hogs from germany if done by the book.Which i did btw.
I never said it was but it was however a vast amount of hogs in 2 deliveries made me wonder how there were so many and where they come from...they may not EVEN be from germany


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## Heavenlyhogs

Chazybabe said:


> Yes yes and yes, so your saying i know nothing of hogs then why the hell you sell me one? And yes i know ring worm as do my family as my farther is a farmers son and i work with horses.. and i have google and a gp oh and a vet..you have other random people telling you what its like im better of i got it 1st hand, well arm..!!


No one said YOU knew NOTHING.It's your responsibility to research and from what i could tell you did.I'm not having a go at you at all.


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## Chazybabe

I shall ring your vet again tomorrow then and ask if they do malpractise of selling treatment with out doing a consoltation as when they were rang they said they wouldnt unless having seen the animal. 

Your not "the 1" passing blame i didnt say there was 1 or even none i just said instead of anyone trying too.

And its a igloo big deal? I dont care if it was a huge house! The point is you would hardly sell a house claiming it had 2 bath rooms when it only comes with one! Doesnt matter how small its a sign of a bad seller, wether its cars or hogs! And im making a point of it and its you that says its just the igloo what about insurance and Irish reg and birth cirtificate and those more important things that your not banging on about that you left off!


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## Heavenlyhogs

Chaz pickle is internationally reg....
I willbe contacting my vet as soon as they open.
The birth certificates AS I TOLD YOU are being designed and printed off to reach you in time for christmas my printer/scanner naffed that's all.Would you like to see the blueprint to see i've bothered?i can send it right now if you wish.
The insurance doesn't exist because hedgehogcentral have NOT updated the listing.
People often sell houses that are HAVING new bathrooms fitted without them actually having being installed at the time.
I'm not denying you the goods am i?


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## Heavenlyhogs

And NO i'm not a bad seller at all...:bash:


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## Heavenlyhogs

*goodnight forum*


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## Chazybabe

Still the un answered Q's that need A's..

I had no complaints to begin with as i trusted you as a breeder not to sell me something thats infected or injured both of which he was before he left your house.

But i have been busy recently sorting out my own health i was up at 8:30am getting a docs appointment for ringworm yesterday morning then had to go to the hospital to a M.E. clinic for 11:00 am then was ringing around for a vets for Pickle and his ringworm then had to go to my doc appointment at 4:30pm then had to rush straight off down the motor way (with out time to pick up my own prescription) to take pickle to the vets for 6:30pm for his own lot of meds and prodding! 

And it took us over an hour to get there and same on the way home! 

Then spent ages cleaning him out sorting out his cage disinfecting cleaning all his things giving him fresh bedding ect and sorting out all the dirties away from all the other animals and then settle him in and give him meds tomorrow its going to be bath day for him, and also had to do the feeding rounds of all other pets and then try not to contaminate the boyfriend which makes things hard!! 

So today i am shattered and far more stressed than is good for me all because of something so simple like advice and good practise going out the window somewhere down the line! 

Have you even sent the medication you said you would for Pickle?


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## Chazybabe

So im getting a dodgy igloo now? Or half of one? Well yes i would like a blue print? If you havnt of gone offline!

If your treating your hogs then why do you now need to contact them 1st thing?!? You said you had the treatment and vet said thats what you needed? So why you going to them again, also if you only just recently been to them how come you have already sent me treatment in the post for Pickle? Why did you already have some? And i wont need it now, i will send you a receipt of the vet bill and there will be i think 2 more at least to follow as i said id rather you just paid me the re fund asap so i can pay easily with out having to go short at xmas than you having to pay more in vet bill in total than the refund!

1 Last point if hes internationly registered which he wasnt as some one got hold of the lady for me and apparently the female and Leo had been and not pickle then where is my reg for him?? And why dont i have it?


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## Philldan

This is ridiculous... HH you keep on about seeking legal advice, but you'll get laughed out of court with your own evidence!!

Not more than a month ago, you were her on this forum stating that the hogs were in kennels and saying that the owner had lied to me to protect you under the data protection act - that was an outright lie!! - the hogs were with you all of the time, yet you appealed for sympathy claiming you had to visit daily and your sons were paying for the costs!!

We all have those standard reply Defra emails, but they are standard and if you actually phone them up they will set you straight!

And no, there may be nothing wrong with importing hedgehogs from Germany, but it has been stated on HC that there was a problem of ringworm with hogs from that particular breeder (and we've had it confirmed by other people too) and yet despite all of the concerns from your buyers, you still haven't taken your own animals to the vets, which is a legal obligation!

And I'm sorry, but you really should go back and ask your doc whether those infections on your hands are ringworm... it's quite possible a doc would thing they are infected, but take a look at the photo's, you can see a clear rounded edge on both your thumb and finger.

You can deny all you like, but both Chaz and Ian and Julie have every right to be annoyed, you gave them none of the service you claimed... and Pickles was not registered anywhere, that was done by Faith after requesting details from Jeanne, you have had a complaint made about your animals health... mainly out of concern for the animals and of course the fact that others could be infected and yet your response was to run over to HC and post making it look as though you were being victimised... it was you that brought this into the open, but as usual, you seem to want to keep all of the negative stuff on the american forums and keep everything looking hunky dory over here - but you sell your animals here, not in the states!!


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## Heavenlyhogs

I spoke in depth with defra on the phone and recieved emails confirming that i was not required by them to quarantime my hedgies.I did everything above board although it was stated otherwise when i was alerted to the possibility they made a mistake despite what i was facing i did the decent thing and contacted them about it and yes they confirmed they has made a mistake.As far as i was aware for a few weeks after they WERE still having the facility collect the hogs.
This escalted to them not contacting me and avoiding me for 3 months when i received the final decisionand was then advised that this was my business and it should remain that way.However i am discussing it inlight of recent events.
I stated regardless of where the hogs were that i was protected by data protection which is true........................

I have never seen a post regarding the said breeder having ringworm in herd,it seems i am the last to know this and am a little disappointed that unimportant squabbles were not cast aside and myself informed by anyone for the sake of my hedgies,family,friends,children and other animals welfare.It was mentioned to me a few days ago however and i rang my vet telling them that this may be the case and sought advise.
I was advised that since there was no visual clues at the time that i should go ahead and treat as a precaution which i am.
If anyone had approached me instead of going about things as they have transpired i would never even have dreamt of breeding Orinoco & adelaide much less home hoglets to unsuspecting buyers until any danger had passed.I myself am not an animal and would not do such a thing.
The doctor i saw specialises in skin diseases so i'm pretty sure he wouldn't have got this wrong and it resolved itself in just over a week,but yes i shall have him reconfirm now this has come to light.
With no visual clues until recently i couldn't have possibly known that any hog could have been carrying ringworm,i haven't had it,my children haven't had it,my friends,family or other pets haven't had it.
Now due to recent fear i rang my vets emergency number at 5am this morning as there's a possibility one of my hedgies is showing signs,my vet advised me to bathe the area and make an appointment for today which i have and details of results will be posted in due course.
I am going to have a species identification to locate source if confirmed.Upon that i will be happy to issue refunds to those that homed the hogs.


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## Heavenlyhogs

This could well be mites i'm not sure i've never had ringworm in a hedgie before or mites which as far as i know could be secondary to ringworm.
As stated i will be posting results and as soon as the scrape results are in.
This is a cureable thing as nasty as it may be and common although maybe not so much in hedgies.I am not directly responsible for it as far as i'm aware and fully intend to try to locate its' source, in the time i've owned hedgies i've never encountered this problem before.
I realise i get a little defensive and perhaps don't respond as i should but i am trying very hard in light of the original post.
But i do find it very very hard to fathom knowing who and where my hedgies had come from that this was never brought to my attention before despite past events...although as i said someone had mentioned the possibility recently.
Will keep you all posted


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## angeldog

im glad to hear that you are now taking your hog to the vets, however with such a contagious disease you will need to take all your hogs and any other animal you have at your home. there is no point in treating one if all the rest may have it too, it will only contract it again.
although ringworm is common, it is not in the APH, infact ive been asked by a US breeder what treatment was aadvised because they have never in all their years known of a single APH in the US to get it.
I myself have only ever known of 1 UK case and that was years ago.
I did however hear of the cases from the hoglets that were imported into Ireland from Germany, as we all know many of those died, those hogs came from a supposed reputable breeder.

I dont think chaz is in the least bit concerned about an igloo, i think its more the fact she expected care sheets, pedigree and insurance with her hog, not much point sending care sheets for xmas when shes had the hoglet for weeks.
leo and pickle were registered with the UK reg within minutes of the owners asking me to do it, pickle was not registered with the IHR. leo and the female were but leo's owners were not given any cerificate for that.
All UK reg goes to the IHR database anyway so theres little point in registering over there, we do have the IHR numbers in our database.

As for the importing, yeah we all have those standard replies from defra but it is up to the individual to look into that in more detail, alot of us have looked into importing in the past, but with the length and cost of quarentine its just not worth it, especially for the hogs.
I for one would like the evidence that you said you would provide new owners with, showing that the hogs had been in quarentine, if they havent been in I would like evidence of why they havent been, for one I would want to know why everyone else has to do it but you dont.

Everyone takes their hogs health and welbeing seriously and this is why this topic has esculated like this.

As a RESPONSIBLE breeder yes you should be at least paying the costs of treatment, what about the treatment costs for Julie? Im assuming she doesnt get free prescriptions?

You do need to get all your hogs tested before doing anymore breeding, and I urge anyone buying from you to ask for proof the hogs are either clear or have been treated, this is easily prooved with a vets letter.
If it hasnt come from you then you have nothing to worry about, if however your hogs do indeed have ringworm then you must get them treated and proove to everyone that you take your animals health as seriously as you claim to do. This is only an opinion and one i believe you should take on board if only to proove everyone wrong.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx

angeldog said:


> im glad to hear that you are now taking your hog to the vets, however with such a contagious disease you will need to take all your hogs and any other animal you have at your home. there is no point in treating one if all the rest may have it too, it will only contract it again.
> although ringworm is common, it is not in the APH, infact ive been asked by a US breeder what treatment was aadvised because they have never in all their years known of a single APH in the US to get it.
> I myself have only ever known of 1 UK case and that was years ago.
> I did however hear of the cases from the hoglets that were imported into Ireland from Germany, as we all know many of those died, those hogs came from a supposed reputable breeder.
> 
> I dont think chaz is in the least bit concerned about an igloo, i think its more the fact she expected care sheets, pedigree and insurance with her hog, not much point sending care sheets for xmas when shes had the hoglet for weeks.
> leo and pickle were registered with the UK reg within minutes of the owners asking me to do it, pickle was not registered with the IHR. leo and the female were but leo's owners were not given any cerificate for that.
> All UK reg goes to the IHR database anyway so theres little point in registering over there, we do have the IHR numbers in our database.
> 
> As for the importing, yeah we all have those standard replies from defra but it is up to the individual to look into that in more detail, alot of us have looked into importing in the past, but with the length and cost of quarentine its just not worth it, especially for the hogs.
> I for one would like the evidence that you said you would provide new owners with, showing that the hogs had been in quarentine, if they havent been in I would like evidence of why they havent been, for one I would want to know why everyone else has to do it but you dont.
> 
> Everyone takes their hogs health and welbeing seriously and this is why this topic has esculated like this.
> 
> As a RESPONSIBLE breeder yes you should be at least paying the costs of treatment, what about the treatment costs for Julie? Im assuming she doesnt get free prescriptions?
> 
> You do need to get all your hogs tested before doing anymore breeding, and I urge anyone buying from you to ask for proof the hogs are either clear or have been treated, this is easily prooved with a vets letter.
> If it hasnt come from you then you have nothing to worry about, if however your hogs do indeed have ringworm then you must get them treated and proove to everyone that you take your animals health as seriously as you claim to do. This is only an opinion and one i believe you should take on board if only to proove everyone wrong.


is that you faith?


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## glidergirl

*Avoiding the rest of the arguement* Angeldog is correct, you DO need to be getting your other hoggies checked along with the rest of your animals. 

As has been said RW is VERY contagious, spread by either direct or indirect contact, and as they're all in the same room it's likely that you have handled an infected hog or cage or bedding and then touched something else. Even a door handle can pass it on!

I'd recommend using disposable gloves, disinfect everything with F10, and use F10 handgel after handling anything and before you handle or touch anything else! If left untreated RW can become infected which would then be harder to clear up than the actual fungus itself.


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## Heavenlyhogs

Julie and ian refused any help from me i have those emails and ibelieve they stated it in hedgehogcentral.I offered it upon their first emails about it.
Chaz got allthe guidance on care,health,diet ect fromme through the forum and emails which i still have.
And as an individual i contacted defra,emailed them rang them ect ect and still they gave the go ahead,they knew when i was leaving and when i would be returning.
The reason they wasn't quarantined as stated numerous times is because i didn't do(know)i was doing anything wrong.
Even if i dohave it there's noway of prooving from where it originated.
Only assumption,opinion ect


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## Emmaj

Heavenlyhogs said:


> Julie and ian refused any help from me i have those emails and ibelieve they stated it in hedgehogcentral.I offered it upon their first emails about it.
> Chaz got allthe guidance on care,health,diet ect fromme through the forum and emails which i still have.
> And as an individual i contacted defra,emailed them rang them ect ect and still they gave the go ahead,they knew when i was leaving and when i would be returning.
> The reason they wasn't quarantined as stated numerous times is because i didn't do(know)i was doing anything wrong.
> Even if i dohave it there's noway of prooving from where it originated.
> Only assumption,opinion ect


 
but no matter where its come from wether it be you, your children or an outsider you still have to get it treated and not just the hogs............your entire family anyone who has been to your property also needs to be informed 

as marie has said this is a highly contagious thing which can be quickly stopped if you do the right thing 

im not interested in whats happened here but i do think you need to get all your animals and family treated for this infection that is affecting the hoglets


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## Heavenlyhogs

I was immediatelyon the phone tomy vet to make arrangements when i heard but was advised that i should treat as a precaution.
I then contacted them to say the a hog had whitish flakes on the snout,again no consultation needed just treating and it seemed to clear up.i've been up all night on this post and once done checked on my hedgies.The spot i suspected might have been caused by mights that cleared is backand bigger so i rang my vets emergency number for advise just around 5am,vet advised just to bathe it and make an appointment which i did and i'm on my way there now.

I was happy to refund/pay vet fees to julie and ian but not in light of that other post which was totally unesassary and highly inaccurate.


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## Heavenlyhogs

And my animals are being treated with imaverol it's highly recommended....
but i have requested a consultation to be on the safe side.


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## Emmaj

Okies hun well i would reccommend getting all the other animals checked out too if not just to be on the safe side as its always better to be safe than sorry : victory:

its so easy to spread things without knowing hun i know all too well my son was on at a friends house an lets say they dont flea their animals he brought 1 flea home on his clothing which ended up me having to flea every animal i own an treat all the house 

its so easy for something like that to happen but its just as easy to fix it too hun


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## Chazybabe

1) I thought mites tended to stay/ effect their host or the same type of animal as there host, i was once told by my vet when i had mites on my mice that my dog ect would be ok as they have different kinds.. and dont get the same kind.. and i and Julie and there daughter have ring worm which is not caused by mites so if the hogs do have mites its as well as! So stop trying to say they have something thats not as bad as what they really do!

2) Right if you didnt quarantine your hogs, didnt know you were doing anything wrong, then fair enough, your problem came when you lied saying you were going to, then that they were and then finding out they have never even seen quarentine, because thats a BIG lie and a IMPORTANT one and you imediatly ost peoples trust.

3)You didnt tell me abut his nose rub.. Your ment to tell your buyer everything, Take a car for example you say its fine and ready to go, buyer turns up and finds a huge dent.. thing is the hoglet is a living thing something i had already set my heart on not any hog but my hog, and i could not face saying i dont want him go take him back another 4 hours on the train when he was in such a Pickle and stressed!

4) You stated the hog came with things like reg, DOB cirtificate, and bits and bobs. They didnt. Thats wrong, another bad selling point is faulse advertising and then faulse selling, so thats a trading standerd thing straight off.

5) If he is registered like you says then wheres my reg? Thats because i had someone get hold of the lady for the international one and apparently had had the females and Leos sent to you but you hadnt given it to them and little Pickle had not been done at all. Since then iv personally had him registered, which is obvious you didnt as 1 hog could not be registered twice.

6) Offering to help and then turning it down because the owner got funny is not a good thing as at the end of the day its the hog you should care about and still want to help no matter about the owner, there just upset that there deasesed!

7)How about you cut down on the amount of animals you own that way you will have more time for everything and less problems, more money for your children to instead of making them pay for "quarentine"? Also saying your kids paid out of there benifits when there wasnt even anything to pay is WRONG VERY WRONG!

8) I suggest you change vet and GP as everyone you deal with seems useless! Defra were in the wrong, Ian and Julie were in the wrong im in the wrong half the hedgehog owners on the planet are wrong! Have you sent those meds for Pickle or are the posties wrong too for "loosing it"??

9)Its you that should of known that the german breeder hand ringworm, you cant really be telling me its the other breeders fault for not telling you, your hogs its your research if others found out and you didnt no the only problem is with that is it PROVES that you did not research enough and if had done so could of avoided the problem!

10) Stop repeating your self and answer peoples Qs not avoiding them and saying new things or new ideas as we want the original ones answered.


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## angeldog

yes its faith


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## Chazybabe

Your having to request a consultation with your vet? Isnt it normaly the other way round if they think somethings ill and you just want to do it by phone they ask you to bring it in.. and theres 101 things that can cause flakes im very surprised they would just go ahead and treat it for what could be dandruff!

*Cattle: *

Depending on the nature of the lesions, cattle should be treated 3 to 4 times at 3-day intervals. The animals should either be washed with the diluted emulsion or the emulsion should be applied to them with a sprayer or high-pressure cleaning unit. 

*Horse:* 

The lesions and surrounding skin should be washed with the diluted emulsion 4 times, at 3-day intervals. 

*Dog:* 

The animals should be washed with the diluted emulsion 4 times, at 3-day intervals. While doing this, one should rub thoroughly in the direction opposite to the hair growth to make sure that the skin is thoroughly wet. For the same reason, it is recommended that long-haired dogs be clipped before treatment. 
Alternatively dogs may be dipped thoroughly in a bath containing the prepared emulsion.

Imaverol - CATS_Coat and Skin pet healthcare

So do you plan on treating like as if it was cattle a horse or a dog? As no where does it say safe for small animals as is potent! Also methods of applying ect would be hard to in the case for a hog and i advise not to use a jet wash! :2thumb: So im a little confused why they gave you this (except for the obv its cheap and buyable anywhere by anyone) than to give you oral which then you know that its getting into the hogs system

Why not get this one for cats??
Itrafungol







*Prescription Required*

That is im guessing why you havnt. As they havnt seen a vet so cant be given, you bought the cow one as all you can get with out seeing them.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx

angeldog said:


> yes its faith


 
arrrr i didnt realise, ello you


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## Tan

Hey guys,

I would like to clear one thing up. Ireland and importing Hedgies from Germany has been mentioned a number of times over two of the threads I have read in relation to whats going on with Heavenlyhogs animals. Now as the only APH resuce in Ireland and the people who dealth with these animals we should be the ones to give the information on these animals and I shall just so there is no further confusion as I have been contacted and made aware of some misconceptions in here which after reading the posts, is true.

A PET STORE in Waterford imported 40 hedgies from Holland. These animals came from a company who would be classed as a animal trading company (I am not in the position to name to store or the company) but on arrival four had died. A number were sold and we became involoved after being made aware of the stores 'dying box'. 

To cut this story short, these hedgies came from a number of breeders in Germany, Holland, Belgium etc...but this reputable breeder I have seen mentioned is not one of its hedgie sources (thats if we are to believe the breeder them selves, another breeder who does supply the store, the company and the pet store too). We had spent and infact are still chasing up some leads to get the fullest story we can on these animals, we had been told one thing, then another but over time we have come to a pretty solid story based on many sources information and investigations. Yes we did loose some but why they died has not been mentioned once here thus giving the impression it could be ringworm or anything really. ALL animals whos lives were lost went for full Necropsy, all those who died were far too young to have left mum, their deaths went down on record with Universaty College Dublin Veterinary Hospital as being this. One hog needed round the clock care for two weeks prior to his death, he needed oral re-hydration and feeding to help boost him, this had nothing to do with ringworm, he was tested and fine, he was just far too small and weak to survive after being in a crate to Dublin via plane, then car to Waterford then back to Dublin and wrong diet and temp after all that time just took its tole. Two died with the vet after needing to go into an oxygen tent. We did get a number of lab results back (those being skin scraping from dif parts of the body to give a fuller picture, allowed to grow on the dish and showing up positive) for ringworm and those hedgies had been moved directly onto a premisis who was already dealing with it. ALL hedgies needed to be treated as ringworm active as the fungi may not have rooted but still be on quills or hair so needed destroying, also rooting could have occured and no signs yet as it was early days in some so all animals had been classed as active as they had all been exposed. This would be common conclusion to come to when your dealing with microspore and other animals and people being in very close contact. NO ONE here contracted it nor did the original animals that the store sold on prior to their surender to us. I have treated this fungi in three genus of hedgie over my life time and know it very well by now. I have also seen it in other animals too.

Ringworm is common in the APH in Europe, some people will say it is not but after our past six or so months looking into this, educating our selves, vets, other keepers and the states who informed us recently they have seen this before and also making contacts and talking to people there have been many 'breeders' with it in eastern europe who are treating for it. 

All my information was given to the IHR over the time frame we dealth with it who have been very supportive but also as we do do so many tests and xrays we have had a first medically wise for the APH a number of times both in Europe and the States (all these have been funded by us) and from an educational point of view it was a great learing experience but obviously very sad at the cost of the animals lives. 

Here is a copy of my posts on HC about ringworm in reply to 'How The Hell Did This Happen'. If anything I hope it can help those people who have been in contact.

Hey Guys,
Sorry to but in here but after reading this post I felt I needed to share me experience and knowledge on this subject.
Firstly as many have said ringworm is a fungus (a parasitic one at that) and is a spore. In order to survive it needs to have a supply of keratin although in saying that in can lay in stasis if you like for up to one year awaiting a host so there is no possible way of saying where it originated from unless a definite source can be located which from reading the posts, cannot be. Being a spore it can become air born too. Also once on its host it can take up to 14days to ‘grow’. Also I have seen a woods lamp mentioned a number of times. Some one has mentioned other fluoresants but what has not been said is roughly only 50% of microspore will actually show and in saying that, just because you get a fluoresce do not mean it is ringworm or a fungus at all. Woods lamps are not only used to detect some fungi so unless a skin scraping is sent off for confirmation you cannot say this is ringworm in your hedgie.
Can I ask what colour your fluoresce was as fungal is blue-ish green under the lamp.
My experiences with the APH spans over six years but with hedgehogs in general is over 16yrs as I run a small wildlife and domestic rescue and am the only APH rescue in Ireland and this year alone I rescued over THIRTY APH all ringworm active. With no insults intended to any American members, APH carrying ringworm is very common in Europe, more so in Eastern Europe and this is based on my own knowledge and experiences and also for verification the IHR were made aware of all my findings, lab work, treatments as it was a first for us all to have dealt with this in such high numbers. Also tea tree oil is NEVER used in European Hedgies for treatment of ringworm, we use on all hedgies regardless of genus, Imaverol. Just for the record I have treated Atelerix, Hemiechinus and Erinaceous for ringworm with two genuses this year alone.
Can I also ask why a skin scrape cannot be done on your hedgehog? I have had an 8weeker & 10weeker (both rescues imported from Germany by a store) scraped and confirmed by Axiom labs in the UK after under 7days growth in the dish so I am sorry but have to disagree with the information you provided or were provided with.
Scratching can be common and reasons ranging from bedding even if synthetic to mites although again I have been told are not very common in America are very common in our European APH, infact I have NEVER had an APH from the UK, Germany, Northern Ireland, Austria and Holland that did not carry a small load of mites. You also say he’s on intrfungal. I have never seen orals used in a ‘suspected’ case as a dip or spray with a antifungal solution is more than enough to kill off any spores. I am curious to know if your vet told you why he chose this option as I find others experiences fascinating and medically speaking am always intrigued by others options in treatments, also is a learning curve for us all, so would love to know (sorry for being so nosey). Also TriGene is our cleaner of choice, it is the fungal destroyer used by the vets over here but we buy it in 5ltr concentrate and dilute our selves to desired solution. 
Another thing which should be mentioned is ALL hedgie carry parasites and do need treatment. Although we do not all see the tell tail green jelly poos in carriers they do have them as husbandry over here is very lax indeed. We use parazole successfully in all our hedgies every three months precautionary. I can confidently say successfully due to the ridicules amount of money we have spent of lab work, again with Axiom to come to our conclusions.

2nd post

Also I forgot to add, bedding does not have to be discarded or hides. Ringworm cannot survive steam so if you can buy a little steamer with a nozel you can use it on wood based shacks like I use and also bedding can be washed at 90degrees with all spores killed, is cannot survive this temp.


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## Chazybabe

*Re: How the hell did this happen?*

by *heavenlyhogs* on Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:14 pm 
The cats are wormed regularly using drontal but i don't recall if it covers ringworm.

Well would help if the breeder new that even tho its called ringworm it is not a worm.. 

Yes i know she knows now, but didnt when she 1st started saying others could of brought it to her house ect ect theres also another good post on that site. One by which i think has some good points made.

*Re: How the hell did this happen?*

by *Nancy* on Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:24 pm 
I know of a case of ringworm that definitely came from the hedgehog and it showed up on the person long before there was anything visible on the hedgehog. If I remember correctly it took a couple of months and even then, all the hedgehog showed was dry skin and itchiness. Interestingly, in this case, the ringworm was severe on the wife but nothing on the husband who handled the hedgehog equally as much.

Heavenly, why did you have a skin scrape done on a 4 week old baby unless there were signs of a problem? A skin scrape is not something to randomly subject a baby to without good reason. Unless they looked specifically for ringworm on the skin scrape, it wouldn't show up. 

You may never know where the ringworm came from or which household it started in but the fact that one baby needed a skin scrape at 4 weeks makes me suspect that possibly that baby was showing symptoms that weren't picked up at that time.


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## Shell195

at last someone who understands Ringworm.At the Sanctuary we have had a few kitten cases, I treated a full litter I kept in a spare room upstairs and never passed it anyone or anything else. Persian cats quite often carry on their coats with no ill effects as do other long coated animals. We do not routinely use a woods lamp on our animals available for adoption and only go to a vet if we notice lesions(rings) On the human lesions can be treated with athlete foot cream, no big deal.I am not taking sides and refuse to argue, just stating facts:2thumb:


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## Tan

Also I fully agree with what every on has been saying, you need to treat everyone precautionary both your selves and other animals. If you have and chins this will be harder to deal with due to their fur. Terzolin is a shampoo you can use on all family members but also be used on the hogs.

When we treated it both in the exposed guys and the positive guys we took an aggresive aproach which had already been proved safe via American studies and publised in the Animal Formulary which we keep. We made up a dip instead of a spray as this insures roots are saturated. Each animal was dunked (like a sheep) and then allowed to dry under 250 watt infrared heat lamps and lived on paper. They had this treatment daily then we went to every third day. After a consult with our Exotic vet via phone (one of two in southern Ireland) with my own vet there too, this was the way in which I wanted to treat it and take no chances, they said the gaps in days are usually to allow the ringworm max exposure to the solution but daily once they have fully dried will keep the dosing up on the ringworm so will kill it off quicker, in an animal showing no signs it would be . Once the first bath has been had it is starting to work, none of the animals had any ill effects, died or required any other treatments after us doing it this way. 

I know it may seem a little excessive but I have seen a mankey cat (not mine) with this and in an unresponsive animal, treatment would last for roughly 12weeks and even then you don't have to bath this often as it does work. I am a bit of a hedgie looper as many of you know  and due to this I think I was that little bit more agressive when it came to treating it.

We used newpaper as cage lining. Everyday the paper was changed and TriGene is used to fully sterilise the bars and cage base (may people forget the bars but it is important), you can surround the cage bars in cotton wool to catch any loose spores that may be. Disposible aprons, gloves and bags everyday in order to keep chances of infection to a min. Once you get into an almost regimental rountine it isnt hard to deal with but as I said is very easily contracted. Steaming areas is also a good thing to do. I know it can be a nightmare, for all those involved in this I am very sorry this is happening but some really good advice has been give in here from members and with support both from members and family you will fly through this and get your animals and your selves healthy again.


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## Chazybabe

Tan said:


> Also I fully agree with what every on has been saying, you need to treat everyone precautionary both your selves and other animals. If you have and chins this will be harder to deal with due to their fur. Terzolin is a shampoo you can use on all family members but also be used on the hogs.
> 
> When we treated it both in the exposed guys and the positive guys we took an aggresive aproach which had already been proved safe via American studies and publised in the Animal Formulary which we keep. We made up a dip instead of a spray as this insures roots are saturated. Each animal was dunked (like a sheep) and then allowed to dry under 250 watt infrared heat lamps and lived on paper. They had this treatment daily then we went to every third day. After a consult with our Exotic vet via phone (one of two in southern Ireland) with my own vet there too, this was the way in which I wanted to treat it and take no chances, they said the gaps in days are usually to allow the ringworm max exposure to the solution but daily once they have fully dried will keep the dosing up on the ringworm so will kill it off quicker, in an animal showing no signs it would be . Once the first bath has been had it is starting to work, none of the animals had any ill effects, died or required any other treatments after us doing it this way.
> 
> I know it may seem a little excessive but I have seen a mankey cat (not mine) with this and in an unresponsive animal, treatment would last for roughly 12weeks and even then you don't have to bath this often as it does work. I am a bit of a hedgie looper as many of you know  and due to this I think I was that little bit more agressive when it came to treating it.
> 
> We used newpaper as cage lining. Everyday the paper was changed and TriGene is used to fully sterilise the bars and cage base (may people forget the bars but it is important), you can surround the cage bars in cotton wool to catch any loose spores that may be. Disposible aprons, gloves and bags everyday in order to keep chances of infection to a min. Once you get into an almost regimental rountine it isnt hard to deal with but as I said is very easily contracted. Steaming areas is also a good thing to do. I know it can be a nightmare, for all those involved in this I am very sorry this is happening but some really good advice has been give in here from members and with support both from members and family you will fly through this and get your animals and your selves healthy again.


Pickle is now being bathed as well as oral,have a steamer he is also now on paper 










He is now also sneezing alot.








 Your guinea inhales the fungal spores when he is scratching himself to try and relieve the itching. The fungal spores can be inhaled into the lungs, and can cause Mycotic Pneumonia, which can be fatal.

Is it the same for them as for hogs? Heres another host of possible problems.. Gorgeous Guineas - Fungal Skin Problems

As if so which i cant see why it wouldnt be and Pickle is sneezing im now even more worried as if he has had ringworm and was from the breeder then hes had it long enough for it to cause other problems?!


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## roxyandboys

Shell.

Don't have much luck do you, must be terrible to know that ALL of these people have a conspiracy against you......

Why on earth has it taken you this long to insist on getting your animals treated? If it were me i would be taking the entire herd to the vets.

Are you being careful not to spread the problem? Your other animals can pick this up including your gliders

How on earth have you got a hold of imaverol, its only available on prescription unless its for cattle and dogs, also, using something which is not licensed for use on small animals can be dangerous. Your Vet would not have prescribed this to you for the hedgehogs. [Edit - Without seeing them first]

I just dont get why you have not done the right thing and actually given your animals the care they need.

All i ever seem to see in your posts is defensive avoidance of the questions put to you and total denile that there is a single thing wrong with you or your husbandry.

I mostly feel exhausted at reading anything you write.

You and i had words before and i gave you the benefit of the doubt, now i wish i hadn't put my trust in your words.

Get your animals sorted. They rely on you to do the right thing.


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## Tan

In the states Gunieas are seen quite a bit with ring worm. Yes they can inhale spores but once you are doing what your doing this should not be a problem. It is possible BUT I can tell you the only effect we saw in the hedgies was far more sneezing. I too was worried but what we came to after talking with the vet and the knowledge we have on the jackobsons organ as great as it is seems to go a little loopy when they get smells of the washes and also some may take in a tiny bit of the wash via the nazel passage and this will agrivate the system and induce sneezing which is normal. You may notice far more frothy self anointing too, again, normal. It seems to get them going a little again with no ill effects. Once treatment stopped they went back to just being normal. You can bring your hedgie for scans via ultra sounds (forgot the name of the machine here, sorry) and x-rays to see if there are any changes in the nasal passages and or lungs (congestion, scaring etc) but all ours were clean tests. If you get discharge then take him a.s.a.p as this would be an indication of inhilation OR infection due to x, y or z (so many things can happen to them which most people are not aware of if you start to think about it you will panic your self so please believe me when I say he will probably just go through washes and be fine but I do understand you worrying) but If you are to do this keep in mind your cost will start to go up and up and it isnt something which is classed and being part of treatment but we did it, again, bit of a hedgie mentalist here 


Just to clarify, Imaverol is used in those animals but has been tried and tested in published works as safe for hedgies, we use Parazole (cats and dogs) to worm all hedgies and Baytral for illness, Ivermec which is used in humans, cattle, horses is also used, many die due to miscalculations but my vets have used it with no ill effects as many around the world have (I would be wary of it tbh).


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## angeldog

chaz i dont know for sure but if you are worried in the slightest get him back to the vets, its better to get him checked than be sorry you didnt.
i know its gonna be more expense, maybe the vet would set up an account or something orr HH could contact the vet with payment to save all the to and frow of reciepts


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## roxyandboys

can you get imaverol without a prescription? Seems a bit dangerous.


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## Tan

Imavoral is prescribed for use in ALL hedgehogs both native and domestic in treating ringworm. It is safe and it is what we used. American studies have shown this and they are far more advance when it comes to treatment of the APH . We too didn't think it was until the new formulary came out but then I cannot remember if it was in the first two editions (can anyone help on this info).


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## Philldan

Chaz, I agree, if you're at all worried then you need to get him back to the vet!!

I know it's extra expense, but if you even think he has somehting on his chest or in his mouth, the sooner he gets treated the better!!


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## roxyandboys

Thanks for that info Tan, I am not a hedgie keeper, just lots of other small animals and i know they can be very sensitive to drugs which is what concerned me.


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## Chazybabe

Tan said:


> In the states Gunieas are seen quite a bit with ring worm. Yes they can inhale spores but once you are doing what your doing this should not be a problem. It is possible BUT I can tell you the only effect we saw in the hedgies was far more sneezing. I too was worried but what we came to after talking with the vet and the knowledge we have on the jackobsons organ as great as it is seems to go a little loopy when they get smells of the washes and also some may take in a tiny bit of the wash via the nazel passage and this will agrivate the system and induce sneezing which is normal. You may notice far more frothy self anointing too, again, normal. It seems to get them going a little again with no ill effects. Once treatment stopped they went back to just being normal. You can bring your hedgie for scans via ultra sounds (forgot the name of the machine here, sorry) and x-rays to see if there are any changes in the nasal passages and or lungs (congestion, scaring etc) but all ours were clean tests. If you get discharge then take him a.s.a.p as this would be an indication of inhilation OR infection due to x, y or z (so many things can happen to them which most people are not aware of if you start to think about it you will panic your self so please believe me when I say he will probably just go through washes and be fine but I do understand you worrying) but If you are to do this keep in mind your cost will start to go up and up and it isnt something which is classed and being part of treatment but we did it, again, bit of a hedgie mentalist here
> 
> 
> Just to clarify, Imaverol is used in those animals but has been tried and tested in published works as safe for hedgies, we use Parazole (cats and dogs) to worm all hedgies and Baytral for illness, Ivermec which is used in humans, cattle, horses is also used, many die due to miscalculations but my vets have used it with no ill effects as many around the world have (I would be wary of it tbh).


Thing is tho he could of gone untreated since he was at the breeders depending on when he 1st got it but its been a month at least with out treatment as had it beofore i had him.

On a more stronger note he hasnt had a bath yet, as got the treatment last night and was planning on giving him one later today. So cant be that he has got it in his nose.. and seeing as he has had it for ages, it could of spread to other parts i,e internaly!

Im using Intrafungol and this has been tried and tested over here, as the vet i see uses this and is also what Leo has been given, as well as the bathing treatment.


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## Tan

I agree. Hedgies are prone to so many things other small mammals are and it is a very worrying time. Many people will know just how expensive treatment can be because you can get so many secondary problems and then they agrivate the original problem and it can lead to a bad out come. Fingers crossed all goes well but so far your doing everything correctly and the best you can for him.


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## Tan

intrafungal will battle internal problems so should be ok there. Thats the oral solution used and yes we too have that. Ah no bath, ok another thing is if he is scratching and has flakey skin he can inhale this, now he could have mites so Stronghold (which is selemectin based and that is a parasitic solution) 15mg for puppys and kittens will irradicate them. I personally wouldnt treat him for everything all at once unless nessisary. Ringworm first, most important.

hedgies can go a long time, if you saw one I have seen, it did not resemble a hedgehog, no quills to speak of, no fur at all and bumps which was a bacterial infection secondary to the ringworm and he had no internal effects. I would say for your own peace of mind and tbh what we would do is just get to the vets a.s.a.p, voice your concerns in full and see what they think.


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## Heavenlyhogs

i'm back and the hog i took who i thought may have some signs had no visible signs at all and was perscribed FULITHALMIC viscous eye drops.
Which is used to treat conjunctrovitus in dogs,cats & rabbits.
I quizzed the vet on ways to find out 100% if i had the all clear from ringworm and the only way to do this is to have a few hedgies scraped and to culture this for 2 weeks and repeat until there are 3 straight negatives in a row.But highly inappropiate since i had been advised to treat as a precaution therefor there is little sense in doing this as theresults would be effected and inclusive.
I have liased with my vet from day 1..i would like to make that very very clear.And my vet is solely responsible for all my animals and she hasn't failed me ever...When my glider was ill i had him to the vet Immediately as i do for any pet that is ill btw.And the same has applied to my hedgies when needed and advise and guidance sought by my vet and people with the appropiate knowledge and understanding of ringworm currently not expressed by many here save 2.
I raised the question about the eczema and she stated that anything with puss like i had is not ringworm.
I have had an inspection as stated before for a rehome.I got through it.
That's a conclusion to the matter now as far as i'm concerned.
Who knows i certainly dont but i do know not me,myself,my kids,my animals,my family,my friends ect have been effected by this so it's very strange.Pickle had a lower immunity when born maybe Orinoco and Adelaides litter had a lower immunity to it.we will never know.
I'm satisfied with my husbandry,my cages are kept clean and are of an appropiate size.


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## Kylie

reading this has completly tired me out could you not have sorted this out off of the forums? 

I wouldnt have wanted all the information on here for all to see i would want to sort things out before it got this far.

If one of my ferrets was ill when i had rehomed it i would have gladly paid the bill for the vets and helped as much as poss iw ould do my up most to keep my name as a reputable rescue as high up in the ranks as poss i would not like my name publiclly slated on a forum with 1000's of users

Very unprofessional and not the way to do things in my eyes but hey


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## Heavenlyhogs

well it's been educational if anything and as far as im concerned WAS an open book for those with an opinion about it which after all is what forums are all about not just the buy and sell and rescue.


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## Heavenlyhogs

I have also stated numerous times i'm happy to oblige a refund to chaz.I'm also not afraid of not remaining back stage in serious issues as stated there have been many cases more than people think but it seems to be all hush hushed.:whistling2:


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## Philldan

Heavenlyhogs said:


> I have also stated numerous times i'm happy to oblige a refund to chaz.I'm also not afraid of not remaining back stage in serious issues as stated there have been many cases more than people think but it seems to be all hush hushed.:whistling2:


So you're going to give Chaz a refund??


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## Amalthea

I just want to say that INFECTED ringworm DOES get puss... Just like anything else that gets infected


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## angeldog

yep and infection ontop of ringworm would be infected and therefore have puss
i dont want to start a whole argument going here but, if you only took one hog to the vet how do you know all the others are clear?


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## happyhogs

Yes, the whole herd plus all your other furries need checking out to be really sure. And are you now saying your hog also has conjunctivitus on top of everything else?


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## Athravan

This is all pretty heartbreaking for me to be honest and I hope that Adelaide and the other hogs, along with the hoglets, receive the treament they need and recover with no permanent damage, and that they are not in too much discomfort or pain.

I myself had never really researched ringworm in hedgehogs and this thread contains some very useful information, and I will be doing some independant research, in order to remain vigilant and protect my own hoggies - it's important that all of us hedgehog keepers are increasingly aware of such problems.


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## Ian And Julie

It has always been my intension Shell to get you to take her hogs to the vet,I was worried you had unknowingly contracted ringworm so I was concerned for you and your herd.
So I tried both by leaving a message on your answer phone & e-mails, to get you to take your hogs to the vet if not for their welfare for your own peace of mind.
It was while I was waiting for your reply that I continued my search on the web with regards to ringworm & APH, that I came across the forum with you asking the question - *How the hell did this happen*.
Yes Shell you did then answer my e-mail and stated you had spoken at length to your exotic vet, but answer me this question why was the information provided by the vet - quotes that originated form comments from other members of the forum @ Hedgehog Central and all from the first few replies you had had back.

When we arrived, having come some distance like Chaz I had looked forward to getting my new baby, the girl had already been homed and Pickles & Leo were housed in a zoo zone with what looked like a towel over them, I never saw Pickles and on seeing your hands I was shocked that you did not glove up before taking Leo out and giving him to me. I stood up for most of the time when you lifted out your other females you said the males were in your bedroom I did not handle any of your herd.

Yes I did sit on the sofa for a few moments on the edge and that was only because I did not wish to appear rude, we had intended to spent some time with you but it was at the most 30 minutes.

You could have avoided all this if your had taken as you said you would a few of your herd to the vets. Your vet could have spoken with mine, two quaified proffessionals - had your herd been clear that would have been that but you never did.
Strangly what you did not tell me was that Chaz also had a rash I then found out you had you had offered her cream but not me as we had made an issue on the forum.
This has never been about money, I have more then one brain cell and am well paid. I can afford to have Leo get the best possible treatment and I will, this is no longer about you this is about *animal welfare*, not everyone has a show home and we all can't have the same standards - life would be boaring if we where all the same.
But I thought you loved your animals - guess I'm not the best judge of people after all. 

Julie


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## Heavenlyhogs

nope my hog doesnt have conjuntrovitis :lol2:
i will offer julie and chaz a refund.
Up to me and them now and all future correspondance will be dealt with as such..
thanks ladies:2thumb:


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## happyhogs

So why the fucithalmic? It is an antibiotic cream so must be for a reason.


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## roxyandboys

Heavenlyhogs said:


> i'm back and the hog i took who i thought may have some signs had no visible signs at all and was perscribed FULITHALMIC viscous eye drops.
> Which is used to treat conjunctrovitus in dogs,cats & rabbits.


If the 1 hog you took to the vets does not have conjuntivitis why is he being treated for it?

Why could you not simly have done the right thing in the first place?


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## Ragmoth

I have to say after reading this thread i feel very sorry for heavenly's animals. 

Heavenly, i am not trying to get on at you, you obviously have alot going on but please, please, PLEASE take each and every animal you own to the vets to get checked out or get them treated for ringwom, even if they don't appear to have any outward symptoms. Please! 

And if your animals DO have ringworm, it is nothing to be ashamed of, not if you are being proactive about it and getting the problem eliminated. 

I am very sorry and feel deeply for all the owners and animals affected by this. I hope you all heal quickly. 

I have fallen in love with APH now, the boyfriend just gave me "that look" as if to say, no more pets! Git!


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## roxyandboys

Heavenlyhogs said:


> Any futher slander in this forum will be taken up with my solicitor.


Oh and its libel when its in written form not slander


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## Heavenlyhogs

If i did not care for my animals or yours for that matter i would have COMPLETELY ignored you right from the start i would not have sought advise immediately as i did and i would not be offering refunds to take care of their welfare:bash:
I canonlygo on what my vet advised and what i'm advised by other with a knowledge of this.


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## loulou

Do not forget to get your gliders tested, especially the one that was ill as his immune system may have been low and animals with a low immune systems are more suseptable to catching it.


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## Heavenlyhogs

i have stuff recommended by EXPIRIENCED people and the vet...so if they're being treated what are you going on about?

Anyways...enough is enough


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## happyhogs

And the fucithalmic was for....?


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## happyhogs

And since when should anyone who has decided they have enough knowledge and experience to breed an animal need advice on whether to get an animal checked out at the vet? As soon as you were aware of the ringworm issue and found out what it was, your first move should have been to get all your animals checked and onto treatment if needed, whilst also accepting the cost of the owners needing to do the same thing.

Also, although you say your hogs have not shown any signs of ringworm, you have so far said that a hoglet had staph and had a wound to it's nose, one has been tested positive for parasitic worms, you have infected eczema, a sugar glider has been ill and now another hog has eye issues of some sort requiring antibiotics. Something is clearly wrong somewhere. I have kept animals for all of my life and never had so many problems in one stretch.


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## Tan

Guys come on. Surely as she is trying to get all her animals to the vet, has been given all the infomation we (the collective hedgehog community and all other animal people) can provide. Has openly said she shall refund the two owners can we not leave this now for them to deal with in private. They have all discussed this openly but I think now it is going beyond being helpful to anyone Ian & Julie, Chaz and Shell are all dealing with something now that I wish on no one, not my worst enemy, keep this in mind and try remain helpful. Surely the best you can ask for is someone to see the error of their ways and do all they can to rectify that problem.Lets just hope it all works out for the best. If your going to do some indi research I highly recommend you check out some published works by Donnasue. I have been trying to get other owners aware of her, shes top dog and bang on with her research. Great on WHS,actually probably the best the world has to offer. You will also learn a lot from other people experiences (which is one reason I found this thread to be helpful) and tried and tested methods.


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## happyhogs

I think, if for one moment, people believed Shell to ever have seen the error of her ways, they would back off but there seems to be little evidence of that. Regardless of finally taking ONE hog to the vet and offering a refund to ONE owner, there is still a mist of denial and deceit. I have never, in all my years of keeping and breeding a variety of animals, come across someone who has prompted me into this style of debate but I truly believe Shell should not be owning or breeding anything at all EVER!!


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## Tan

Now theres an interesting point raised. Did you know most hedgies have worms?? Most owners don't know this and don't treat for it. I advise (including shell) all owners to worm. My vet now does it with her own APH given she uses injections but we use Parazol for cats & dogs. One tell tail sign in all genus is a slimey, gelatinous green poo BUT they can have them and show very little to no signs. Just like with mites, stress can induce the load to become more noticable and some owners have confused a worm dropping for a runny-ish stress induced poo.


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## pjlucy

I have read all forums regarding this matter, and I myself have 3 little hogs.

This has become a complete witch hunt, As usual everyone seems to be joining the bandwagon.

She has offered to pay back the 2 people involved.

Bottom line is she has made some mistakes and has openly said sorry.

What more do you want from this woman?


The owners of the little hogs she sold to them have made people and her aware that there is potentially a problem with her herd.

The breeder is trying to sort out her husbandry and has seeked advise from her vets.

Everyone has made their point

Put it to rest and leave the woman alone.

Can everyone honestly say (which I doubt) that they have never made even the tiniest mistake,? be it hers was not a tiny one, but let it go.


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## enola69

but its not just one mistake. 

Its mistake after mistake.


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## pjlucy

Maybe so Enola, but Im sure everyone will remember it and wont use her as a breeder.


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## enola69

I just hope she is doing the right thing for her animals.


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## pjlucy

Thats all we can hope for hun.


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## pgag_1_york

enola69 said:


> but its not just one mistake.
> 
> Its mistake after mistake.


and lie after lie


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## angeldog

and she still hasnt taken all her animals to the vets, taking only 1 is pointless as ive already stated. how many more people will buy infected hoglets from her, it wont just go away on its own.
there is obviously some sort of eye infection on the hog that went to the vets, or did the vet give out medication for nothing.

also as the vet doesnt give out prescription meds without seeing an animal where did the ringworm treatment from that she was claiming to already have? what friend would have sent her a prescription medication without a vetinary license?


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## pjlucy

angeldog said:


> and she still hasnt taken all her animals to the vets, taking only 1 is pointless as ive already stated. how many more people will buy infected hoglets from her, it wont just go away on its own.
> there is obviously some sort of eye infection on the hog that went to the vets, or did the vet give out medication for nothing.
> 
> also as the vet doesnt give out prescription meds without seeing an animal where did the ringworm treatment from that she was claiming to already have? what friend would have sent her a prescription medication without a vetinary license?


Yes and we are all aware of these points hun.
Everyone who reads these threads will not be buying anymore animals from her. (so some good has been done here, in making people aware).

But the end of the day, its now buyer beware and they are HER animals and its her right to look after them how she pleases, regardless of wether its right or wrong, or wether we agree or disagree.


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## Prehistoricpets

happyhogs said:


> I think, if for one moment, people believed Shell to ever have seen the error of her ways, they would back off but there seems to be little evidence of that. Regardless of finally taking ONE hog to the vet and offering a refund to ONE owner, there is still a mist of denial and deceit. I have never, in all my years of keeping and breeding a variety of animals, come across someone who has prompted me into this style of debate but I truly believe Shell should not be owning or breeding anything at all EVER!!


 
so thats your view she should not have any pets at all ok ...then do you have proof shes neglected abused or illtreated any animal in her care?have you concrete proof of this???? to make you say this???

now iain and julie whats up with the couch thing???do you have two autistic kids that sit and rock their days away on your couches??because the animals at HH house is not allowed on the couches have you two autistic kids that treat your furniture as trampolines???jeez if you have a problem with the couch why dont you donate one as you clearly stated youre so well off so a couch to you wont be anything 
tell me was her house dirty at all where the floors or the walls or anything else dirty or is your gripe with the couch a personal thing???

no as far as HH standard of keeping her animals goes you cant fault it every pet in her care gets the best of everything they dont weant or need for anything and when they are sick she does her utmost to get them to the vet and on medication as soon as she can which she did do in the case of the glider that was sick and now with this ringworm thing alsoyou people judge without knowing truely what you judge or who you judge ive stayed out of this till now and i cant any longer because youre not staying on what the problem is you get personal and for the few that do support HH thank you .

not so long ago there was a breeder who bred her hogs and a hoglet was born it couldnt move its hind legs why because this breeder knowingly bred her hogs that has whs in her lines oops shouldnt have mentyioned that now should i and then what about the time a person who said they have spent months reading up about hedgies and how they should be kept and her hedgie choked to death on the wrong substrate funny how nop one said anything about that

HH has kept animals most of her life and she loves each and every one of the completely and does everything in her power to make her animals happy and keep them healthy why dont you lot that have so much to say take a look at yourselves have no pet in your care died or got sick or had something wrong with it and what did you do ??? HH has done and will continue to do everything she can for those animals in her care she will love them with all her heart like she has done.

things happen animals people get sick get viruses its part of life deal with it stop blaming this and that deal with it shes offered to help pay for the treatments shes taking her animals to the vet what more do you want out of her BLOOD?

her animals are well taken care off and she loves them and she does her best for them its unfotunate that this ring worm thing happened but it could have happened to anyone just her bad luck it was her .


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## Chazybabe

Prehistoricpets said:


> so thats your view she should not have any pets at all ok ...then do you have proof shes neglected abused or illtreated any animal in her care?have you concrete proof of this???? to make you say this???
> 
> now iain and julie whats up with the couch thing???do you have two autistic kids that sit and rock their days away on your couches??because the animals at HH house is not allowed on the couches have you two autistic kids that treat your furniture as trampolines???jeez if you have a problem with the couch why dont you donate one as you clearly stated youre so well off so a couch to you wont be anything
> tell me was her house dirty at all where the floors or the walls or anything else dirty or is your gripe with the couch a personal thing???
> 
> no as far as HH standard of keeping her animals goes you cant fault it every pet in her care gets the best of everything they dont weant or need for anything and when they are sick she does her utmost to get them to the vet and on medication as soon as she can which she did do in the case of the glider that was sick and now with this ringworm thing alsoyou people judge without knowing truely what you judge or who you judge ive stayed out of this till now and i cant any longer because youre not staying on what the problem is you get personal and for the few that do support HH thank you .
> 
> not so long ago there was a breeder who bred her hogs and a hoglet was born it couldnt move its hind legs why because this breeder knowingly bred her hogs that has whs in her lines oops shouldnt have mentyioned that now should i and then what about the time a person who said they have spent months reading up about hedgies and how they should be kept and her hedgie choked to death on the wrong substrate funny how nop one said anything about that
> 
> HH has kept animals most of her life and she loves each and every one of the completely and does everything in her power to make her animals happy and keep them healthy why dont you lot that have so much to say take a look at yourselves have no pet in your care died or got sick or had something wrong with it and what did you do ??? HH has done and will continue to do everything she can for those animals in her care she will love them with all her heart like she has done.
> 
> things happen animals people get sick get viruses its part of life deal with it stop blaming this and that deal with it shes offered to help pay for the treatments shes taking her animals to the vet what more do you want out of her BLOOD?
> 
> her animals are well taken care off and she loves them and she does her best for them its unfotunate that this ring worm thing happened but it could have happened to anyone just her bad luck it was her .


 
If you live in south africa then how do you know what conditions she keeps her pets in??


----------



## enola69

I believe it is Heavenlyhogs partner.


----------



## pjlucy

Why havent the moderators put a stop to this thread.

Everyone has made their point.

Her husbandery skills are her business.

Easy answer to this is if your not happy with her animals dont buy them.

Very disappointed that the moderators havent closed this thread.

This woman has been picked on enough


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## pgag_1_york

> her hedgie choked to death on the wrong substrate funny how nop one said anything about that


no, just no1 else but you and shell felt the need to say you were glad the hoglet died and served her right as you and her posted on my forum


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## Prehistoricpets

look at the husbandry why dont you just all go to her house meet her and check her pets over???? like the offer has been made before to some people?????


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## pjlucy

pgag_1_york said:


> no, just no1 else but you and shell felt the need to say you were glad the hoglet died and served her right as you and her posted on my forum


 
AWWW no thats just horrid, poor little thing


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## Chazybabe

Just like to point out who the 1st post was made by.. Which started this. No ones been personal about it
I think this threads fine.

Also i want a refund of the price of Pickle not his meds. Or i will be taking it to trading standerds, which will cause more problems. 

So i would like a public answer as then i have the proof of it. Im not going to get you to cover the cost of vet bills as this will be strung out over the next few weeks and i want to stop this now, so i would like a answer please and a cheque in the post and then you wont be hearing from me again.

And i really do hope you learn from your mistakes, to me it just sounds like you have more than you can cope with, my advice is to just keep pets and not breed that way you wont have such problems with pets or anyone else.


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## angeldog

Prehistoricpets said:


> look at the husbandry why dont you just all go to her house meet her and check her pets over???? like the offer has been made before to some people?????


yeah your right rich should have taken her up on that offer!!!!!

and quite frankly i wouldnt want to risk my animals catching ringworm


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## Chazybabe

I am not going on a train for a 4 hour journey unless you would like to pay for me to do so then i would :bash:

And i also would not want to re contaminate my pets!


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## Prehistoricpets

i dont live in south africa permanently and yes im her partner and no i didnt say im glad the hog died i actually felt sorry for it that the owner who claimed so much that she knew so much didnt know that it could choke to death and at the time i was going through a rough patch suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and i did apologise to the person in question

richard you welcome to come and check please do just make sure it happens when im back please.besides before you say another word look at yourself first boyo......


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## Chazybabe

Missing the point, whats wrong with HH hogs eye?

And i would like a full refund for the hog not for the meds that way this wont be dragged out any more than already has been, this thread would not be as big had she just answered the Qs instead of avoiding them and had tried sorting them out earlier. 

For someone so concerned she hasnt tried hard to sort this out, iv had 1 email half hour ago about cost. Thats it! From everyone else iv had so much help! So thank you guys.


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## Prehistoricpets

faith what you flapping for youre no better you dont have anything decent to say you never have had anything decent to say. you and boyo had the invite on more than one occasion sdo why didnt you take her and me up on it???? scared that you had and have to admit youre wrong??

and besides about the hog that died i was questioning the husbandry not anything else.

so do me a favour all of you pick on someone your own size come out of hiding behind your computers and lap tops and meet us face to face lets see if you have it in you to do that because i am damn sure each and every one of you wil turn around and apologise 

so i dare you come to our house and see for yourself


----------



## pgag_1_york

Prehistoricpets said:


> i dont live in south africa permanently and yes im her partner and no i didnt say im glad the hog died i actually felt sorry for it that the owner who claimed so much that she knew so much didnt know that it could choke to death and at the time i was going through a rough patch suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and i did apologise to the person in question
> 
> richard you welcome to come and check please do just make sure it happens when im back please.besides before you say another word look at yourself first boyo......


the post was both disgusting and offensive no excuse for it at all and you never apologized to the person only to shell and i dont think that counts does it!

thanks but i dont want ringworm

why should i look at myself iv not infected any1 with anything ever, take a good look at your a shell attitude b4 addressing anything else


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## selina20

I think people should calm down this thread a little. Im not saying the thread owner is right or wrong. All im saying is that people should take this kind of thing to PM or do what HH said which is to contact a solicitor. Tbh iv never heard a bad thing about this lady and iv found her helpful on numerous things. Animals get worms and so do kids just treat them for it and deal with it. Shes offered to give u ur money back as this is what some people seem set on. Also we have had 1 of our hogs damage her nose not to the extent of the hog on here but she did. The wound didnt look infected etc so y keep bringing it up. If any animal of mine gets a scratch i dont rush them to the vets unless they need stitches. Whats the point as long as u keep the wound clean. 
We are continuously reminded this is a family forum so lets keep arguing to a minimum?


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## Chazybabe

Pick on someone my own size well im 18 and ill, so i think i am small enough to have ago and Faith actually sorted out the things your partner neglected to do for the litter the 1 of the things being his REG! 

And when your chucking abou the whole hiding behind our laptops ect, well it would help if you wernt hiding behind one in Africa.. and that she wasnt hiding behind you hiding in africa behind a pc..

Theres no argument unless you can argue facts plain and simple.

If you check i didnt keep bringing up the nose rub, it was her that did and me replying everytime she did.

It wasnt about how bad it was anyway it was about you tell someone about it before you sell it.

And she is not offering to refund the actual cost of the hog only the meds, im asking for the selling price as its easier quicker other wise the vet bills will be coming here and there over a period of time and that means i have to keep going through all of this i want it over and done with.


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## Prehistoricpets

chaz shes already said from the start that she would sort this out either way with you so why the plot wit other to defame her and drag her down because thats all it is can any of you blame her for going on the defensive when all of you are nothing but derogitory towards her????


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## Prehistoricpets

richard not a couple of posts ago you accused shell of saying that so why would i apologise to her ????you knew it wasnt her that said anything it was me

now who is lying and i did apologise to the person in question


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## Chazybabe

Iv not said a bad word about her just the way she deals with things the lies ect ect.

She hasnt tried to sort it she just gave me more lies! And has sent me 1 email the whole time of this being public iv had so many offers of help frm others its unbeliveable! How about you stop fighting her battles as im sorry but you seem clueless to the whole thing and have probably been fed a pack of lies too.

Sort it out how? Shes done nothing about it so far. Im sticking to my guns as if i dont she may aswell just get away with it if she thinks i will back down shes wrong as i do have nothing better to do right now then sort this out.

Right un answered things i want to no is 1) whats wrong with her hogs eye (incase ares could have it too!) 

2) Am i getting refund of the price?

3) Why did the hoglet of her last litter die? As after Pickles litter there was another hog who gave birth as i was offered that if i didnt want mine as had the skin problem (at 4 weeks old) yet i never herd anything else about it and learnt the hoglet died at a week old? Why?


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## Kylie

Heavenlyhogs said:


> well it's been educational if anything and as far as im concerned WAS an open book for those with an opinion about it which after all is what forums are all about not just the buy and sell and rescue.


 
i resent that! i use this forum not only to educate people but to also be educated. On reading this thread it would seem that all you have done up to the point of this qoute is back away from any questions asked of you and get on the defensive. 

There has been some educational parts to this from tan, chaz and ian and julie not from you all i have read from you is conflicting information and answers to questions that havent been asked but none to the questions that have been asked more then once.

I for one would never sell a ferret stating it came with set up and certificates etc...if i could not or did not provide it. I also home check every one i rehome too i do not bring a ferret with me just in case the home is not the right one. I get every ferret that comes to me a full "mot" when they arrive and before they are rehomed.

i know many reputable breeders, keepers, rescues of many animals that i know with out a doubt i could have an animal from them and not have a problem. If one of mine or their animals had a scab on its nose it would not be rehomed untill it was 100% clear and healthy.

I have learnt alot from this thread especially about ring worm which is a word i have not heard for years. 

the best a clearest thing i have learnt from this thread though is that if i was ever to get myself an APH i would not get it from you as the relevent basic checks are not done. I would rather get an unfriendly healthy one that i could spend time taming down then a friendly unhealthy one.


I am however pleased you have finally dont the right thing and taken them to the vet and also offered a refund,that is the only good thing so far


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## denny2

selina20 said:


> I think people should calm down this thread a little. Im not saying the thread owner is right or wrong. All im saying is that people should take this kind of thing to PM or do what HH said which is to contact a solicitor. Tbh iv never heard a bad thing about this lady and iv found her helpful on numerous things. Animals get worms and so do kids just treat them for it and deal with it. Shes offered to give u ur money back as this is what some people seem set on. Also we have had 1 of our hogs damage her nose not to the extent of the hog on here but she did. The wound didnt look infected etc so y keep bringing it up. If any animal of mine gets a scratch i dont rush them to the vets unless they need stitches. Whats the point as long as u keep the wound clean.
> We are continuously reminded this is a family forum so lets keep arguing to a minimum?


 Well said it seems some folk dont do basic medical care themselves and prefer to make a big something out of very little.....Ringworm is not as infectious as some are making out , i bought a horse with it and just treated it myself with canestan cream i didnt need a vet to tell me what it was or provide treatment it cleared up i didnt get it from him neither did the horse in the next stable , its a fungii and even if you go to the extreme lengths some are going to it can still be passed on months later even years . If you buy something and arnt happy contact the seller , it as simple as that .....lesson learned. And if a full refund is offered take it and run as many wouldnt offer that you just be told tuff sh.t and be left to get on with it . To air this greivence out on a public forum is just being childish...


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## Chazybabe

Thing is horses are common treating them is easy, hogs are specialist so have to take them to a vet cant give them some things that you can for others also means tracking down a vet that specialises in them, not easy as it sounds.

Havnt been offered a full refund, thats my point, if i had i would have ran by now, shes offering treatment cost which means this carrying on for more weeks and the treatment will be more than the hog its self so at the end of the day its easier to do a full refund because it gets me off her back and will be cheaper too =]

Would also like to know what the last hoglet litter she had died of, as far as i know there was only one and it was a week old when it died. But she hasnt mentoned a 2nd litter at all. and im interested to know.


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## pgag_1_york

> now who is lying and i did apologise to the person in question


the lady in question has never received an apology and is still a member on my forum! regardless of who said it and to be honest i dont know if it was you or her all i have to go on is rants of shells about me on other forums point is it was disgusting and no apology was made

as iv said b4 it got you both a life time ban


----------



## selina20

Chazybabe said:


> Thing is horses are common treating them is easy, hogs are specialist so have to take them to a vet cant give them some things that you can for others also means tracking down a vet that specialises in them, not easy as it sounds.
> 
> Havnt been offered a full refund, thats my point, if i had i would have ran by now, shes offering treatment cost which means this carrying on for more weeks and the treatment will be more than the hog its self so at the end of the day its easier to do a full refund because it gets me off her back and will be cheaper too =]
> 
> Would also like to know what the last hoglet litter she had died of, as far as i know there was only one and it was a week old when it died. But she hasnt mentoned a 2nd litter at all. and im interested to know.


Think u will find u need an equine vet to treat a horse. If you were that bothered about the state of the hog y didnt u have it vetted before u brought it?


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## Emmaj

I think the main thing that selina an denny were trying to point out is................she has offered you both a refund there isnt much more she can do.....................take the refund an just get on with it 

if michelle gets her animals seen to and treated then thats her business............


but im pretty sure after this until people have proof she has then they will think twice about purchasing off her


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## Chazybabe

selina20 said:


> Think u will find u need an equine vet to treat a horse. If you were that bothered about the state of the hog y didnt u have it vetted before u brought it?


Because i wasnt told there was anything wrong with him before i bought him. You dont expect to buy a animal off a breeder and for it to have problems!! If i had been told about his nose ect before hand i would of thought twice about buying him full stop!

Quoting denny "i bought a horse with it and just treated it myself with canestan cream i didnt need a vet to tell me what it was or provide treatment it cleared up" - just going by what he said thats all.


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## Jb1432

Im not going to delve into every opinion i have but one thing i will say is. YOU yes YOU were obviously trying to make a bit of quick money, i find the state of these animals appauling. And people have also contracted parasites from APH's you had in your collection that you have either bred or bought yourself. Your code of conduct for selling livestock is quite frankly disgusting.


----------



## denny2

Chazybabe said:


> Because i wasnt told there was anything wrong with him before i bought him. You dont expect to buy a animal off a breeder and for it to have problems!! If i had been told about his nose ect before hand i would of thought twice about buying him full stop!
> 
> Quoting denny "i bought a horse with it and just treated it myself with canestan cream i didnt need a vet to tell me what it was or provide treatment it cleared up" - just going by what he said thats all.


 Didnt you look at him when you got him handed to you, surley a cut on his nose would be noticable, why didnt you question it then as for the ringworm thats noticable too....if i was the seller of this hog ide be wanting you to return it and giving you the refund rather than have you slag me off in public , i,m sure i read her offering you a refund tho......Horses are specialist animals too, more specialist than hedghogs of any kind theres just more known about them(horses that is), i just knew about ringworm and how to treat it, most vets know bot all about horses, some horse vets know bot all about horses in my experience....


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## selina20

Chazybabe said:


> Because i wasnt told there was anything wrong with him before i bought him. You dont expect to buy a animal off a breeder and for it to have problems!! If i had been told about his nose ect before hand i would of thought twice about buying him full stop!
> 
> Quoting denny "i bought a horse with it and just treated it myself with canestan cream i didnt need a vet to tell me what it was or provide treatment it cleared up" - just going by what he said thats all.


Sadly u risk this with whoever u buy animals. Just take the refund and leave it at that. I would never of brought an animal without seeing it either but everyone has reasons. You have made ur point so i dont see the point in this thread anymore. Its just turning into a personnal slagging match.


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## Chazybabe

He was delivered to me, so it was a bit late by the time he got here, as i wasnt going to send him back on a 4 hour train journey! And was told the nose was just a rub.. Its just not being informed before hand im finding bad!

Ring worm was not noticable or other wise i wouldn have touched him! It shows in humans before hedgehogs in most cases! Its only just shown its self now, as he now has crusty ears and sores behind his ears.

Ring worm might be noticable on a horse as shows as a bold spot but not so easy on a hog full of quills. And as i said it showed in me before it did him.

Refund for meds was offered, but that would take another few weeks of dragging it out!! And will come to more than the hogs worth, so n Shells interests it would be easier/cheaper and less damaging to give a refund for the hog not his meds.

Do you own a hog denny?

Wheres the slagging i see no name calling? Or abuse?? Its people calling it what its not and stirring that turn it into that.

WAS NOT OFFERED A REFUND!

Charlotte
in order to process you a full refund i will require invoices in full with details of all consultations 
and treatments either originals or a copies from your vet.
thank you
Shell

It was a refund of meds cost, which will make this go on for ages as its going to take another 5 weeks of treatment yet. Which is as i stated above easier to just be refunded with out the tooing and throwing, wouldnt even be doing this if he had been sold as he was discribed. 

I did not see him 1st as he was bred in Essex and im from Bristol and am ill with no transport, as i said any illness/problem with him should of been mentioned before she brought him the 4hour journey.


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## Pliskens_Chains

ringworm is easily treated native hedgehogs 
treating ringworm in hedghogs - Google Search=
surely the treatment sdhouldnt be much different with APH's?

The hedghogs shouldnt have been sold with ringworm but if it wasnt apparant at the time of sale then it was a pure accident.

that is definately ringworm on chazsy, ive had it myself when i worked in a grooming parlour. dab it with white spirit, that kills it off and so does canesten cream.


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## Amalthea

Just thought I'd add another little bit from personal experience... It takes a hell of a long time to treat ringworm in people at least, so I am assuming it would in hoglets, as well.


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## Ian And Julie

*Vet's Fee's*

Shell, 
I would like to thank you openly for the offer of paying the vets fee's for Leo, please see below for original e-mail

ian and julie
to issue a full refund i will require receipts of all treatments and consultation fees incured.
Either originals or a copies from your vet
Should you be happy with that please send the documents 
thank you
Shell

*However as I have said it's not about the money.*

Therefore I will willing supply you with a break down of cost for Leo's treatment which I must add is still on going, on the understanding that the total amount payable is given to a UK Hedgehog society.

I would also add that I would require proof you have made this payment supplied to me so I can verify you have been true to your word.

Julie


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## Chazybabe

Offering a refund and giving one are two very different things.. So far she has offered many a thing and gone through with none..

And then i wont have the total costs for at least 5 weeks and its already standing at £57.. and thats just the 1st visit next is in 3 weeks. 

So will be over the original price so i think thats more acceptable and would clear all this fuss up straight away rather than having to bring it up in 5 weeks. And i read somewhere your moving house? And i wouldnt be surprised if in 6 weeks you had moved and i dont get told new address so i would rather sooner than later.


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## eightsnake

Pliskens_Chains said:


> ringworm is easily treated native hedgehogs
> treating ringworm in hedghogs - Google Search=
> surely the treatment sdhouldnt be much different with APH's?
> 
> The hedghogs shouldnt have been sold with ringworm but if it wasnt apparant at the time of sale then it was a pure accident.
> 
> that is definately ringworm on chazsy, ive had it myself when i worked in a grooming parlour. dab it with white spirit, that kills it off and so does canesten cream.


 
No APH can not be treated the same as native hedgehogs, as they can not tolerate tea tree at all, it will more than likely kill them....

I have also had ringworm and have treated 2 dogs and 5 cats with it, not fun, it took 3 months of giving tablets daily to them all to be sure I was rid of it plus boil washing what I could and throwing out what I couldn't. 

Not to mention the treatment of the house or the possible side effects of kidney damage to my animals from the medication. A risk I had to take as dunking 5 cats in a solution of imaverol every other day as suggested by my vet, whose fault it was that I had ringworm in the first place, was not practical.

I wouldn't wish it on anyone.



Lorraine


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## pgag_1_york

> No APH can not be treated the same as native hedgehogs, as they can not tolerate tea tree at all, it will more than likely kill them....


yep there have been a number of deaths from it, its toxic to hogs


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## Amalthea

Wow... Didn't know that! Thanx  Good to know just in case and all that.


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## roxyandboys

Essential oils are very potent and can be very toxic to cats as well. IF you like the idea of using essential oils on your cats and small animals stick to "flower essence" although certain oils should be avoided for direct application such as tea tree


----------



## Amalthea

I use a tea tree cream for minor wounds and such on the critters... Will make sure to not let any get near Hoggle.


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## Chazybabe

Surely if you have a problem or at least a suspected problem with your pets you dont go get 4 more?! As have found out that HH is getting 4 more. Surely less is more? And would be better for them as they get more care each. Im not breeding nor selling or buying any more pets till the problem is cleared!


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## vonnie

Quite a little business then :whistling2:

Well having read through every post what really strikes me (well apart from the fact that the seller seems to change the subject and her story with every post) is that this is all about money.

APH's are still relatively unavailable, are gaining in popularity, ooooohhhhhhhh easy cash to be made and *** the husbandry. And the reason I say that is that if people are not prepared to seek veterinary treatment when and as soon as is necessary then I personally don't think they're fit to be a breeder or a keeper. And the seller knew they should have been seen by a vet or she wouldn't have kept apparently fabricating consultations.

Sad. I feel so sorry for the buyers. The joy of ownership soured for the moment, and handling and bonding set back weeks by the sounds of it. I feel even more sorry for the poor hedgies.


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## Chazybabe

Heres Kendals ringworm Ians daughter, she has only seen the hog a couple of times i think (as lives with her mum) but has got it. Its easily spread, HH only emailed me to ask if i had a rash as Ian had reported Julies to her, i said i do and then she went oh im surprised to hear that, but didnt go back to Ian and say that i had it just kept it to herself and made out it was them who brought it to her house as they obv had it, but didnt say i had it too!










So thats 3 people with Ringworm and 2hogs so far.. and over £200 in vet bills for both hogs added together so far.


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## LauraMartin

i also dont know about this whole thing but just wanna say i got ringworm off my cat, the cat just picked it up off being outside, my whole family got it and it was no big deal, its common and easy to get and easy to treat.


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## Pimperella

Amalthea said:


> I use a tea tree cream for minor wounds and such on the critters... Will make sure to not let any get near Hoggle.


 
Have you tried Hemp Cream (Body shop used to do it) or the magic wonder cream that is Rescue Remedy aswell for dry skin complaints (not ringworm)
I myself have had ringworm. Got it off Cattle when I worked on the dairy farm at Uni. 
Also had Scabies twice! Once from a very scabby rat (not mine, was at a party and I felt sorry for it and was checking it over lol Lucky me lol) Second time was at Uni in the dog grooming section. All great fun to have when your 19. No wants to come near you but at least with the ringworm everyone else who had been droving cattle that week also come down with it. Took a while to clear it up tho.


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## Amalthea

Nope! Will look into those, Laura! 

My hubby got ringworm on his face (why he actually first grew his goatee to hide it) and it got infected and took AGES to heal... Close to a year for it to be completely gone. Then I caught it, but it didn't get near as bad as his and cleared up much quicker.


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## moonlight

Amalthea said:


> Just thought I'd add another little bit from personal experience... It takes a hell of a long time to treat ringworm in people at least,


I am not getting into the debate going on here but in humans it does take a long time to clear ringworm up.
My son has it and 6 months on is still being treated, but neither of my other children have it nor me or their dad.


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## Heavenlyhogs

Right i just want to reply this rather HYPED, thread.
First it was the ringworm,which fair enough is evident,then it moved onto something else,then something else,then something else picking ay every little thing i dare say just to make it look good by the few.
the ramaining girl hog is fine, i am in touch with this family and await futher news from them.

NOW,these hogs were NOT sold KNOWINGLY as having ringworm,i want to make that VERY VERY VERY clear to you ALL.
HENCE why it has been stated time after time by all concerned that NO visible signs were present,therfor how COULD i have KNOWINGLY sold them as such???????,as claimed?????And why the hell would i have travelledby TRAIN from essex to bristol to deliver chaz's if i didn't give a stuff.
There were NO visible signs and you can NOT sniff it out although i dare say some would claim otherwise.
My husbandry and anything else has sod all to do with it,it's very common
and the educated few here will know this,that it can come from dogs,cats,ect ect.And you don't have to be a s:devil:t breeder/keeper to get it.I have a persian cat which is going to be tested by the vet despite not having any prior problems,as are a few of the hogs.Then is MY business and as long as EVERYTHING in my dining room is treated as it is i don't see a problem.Husbandry and all the rest has sod all to do with it,you are not immune however well you take care of your animals or how good your husbandry is,or even how nice your home looks.

NOW i have offered to pay this couple of people their money back amounting the totalof the hog,if i was interested in money i would tell them where to gthers require the return of said animal.So i think i have been fairly reasonable under the circumstances.
Any breeder requires full detailed invoices from the individuals vet as do i for verification and my own personal records.
Soplease deal with the matter at hand and stop bantering on like aload of old women and making this intosomething which it quite clearly isnt.
thank you ladies


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## Heavenlyhogs

And for the record there are a few pics about here of my animals and their enclosures to why don't all the ones "claiming" my husbandry is C:censor stop talking C:censor 

Also as i have said i have just done a rehome on a rescue.....the rehomers were able to view all my husbandry and even they could see all was as it should be and said they couldsee every thing was WELL looked after and gave me the animal to rehome:2thumb:

nothing futher to add...


----------



## Heavenlyhogs

Oh i do have something to add

Chaz&ian your refunds are waiting and will be made upon your vets invoices listing full details of consultations and treatments given.
Also time lined photos would be appreciated for learning purposes.

I will of course be getting to the bottom of this treating my hogs and giving all future owners(on my list)everything they need to show it's all cleared up:2thumb:
in the mean time i have animals to contend with and a move to my new house.....
will keep you all informed and be sure to post plenty of pics of me and my animals in their new home:2thumb:


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## Ian And Julie

Shell It would have been better if you had got to the bottom of this two weeks ago when I first brought it POLITELY to your attention. 
But what the hell better late than never. Lets hope everyone has learned from this because BOY Julie and I have, and now Chaz and Kendal.

Thanks Shell, hope to see a new and improved HeavenlyHogs trading soon.

Ian, Julie & Leo.


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## Heavenlyhogs

As stated before my vet was notified of the problem immediately and i went based on her advise to treat precautionary as not 1 of the hedgies had any visuals .So if there's an issue with that my vet should be taken up on it not me.
I offered upon notification both parties concerned support by way of covering veterinary costs and then this huge innacurate post was made about it stating i was a convicted criminal(which i intend to persue futher and have reported such posts)i apologised to the parties concerned have you ian and julie once apologise to me for stating iwas a convicted criminal?or for the fact you judged me on how my sofa looked?no

Please send what is required to issue the refund,i hope you all recover.
I have made requests for this thread to now be closed,as yet it hasn't.


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## Chazybabe

Can you pm me your address then please, and will you still be living in that house or moved by the time can give you all the vets details in about 5weeks time?


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## Heavenlyhogs

Chaz you are receiving the £150 as paid for the hoglet and get to keep him upon verification.
Why is it going to take you 5 weeks to send me your vets details?as well as receipts giving full details of the problems?
You said you have verification for the first consultation ect that's all i need.


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## Chazybabe

Because you stated you wanted listing full details of vet bills, which wont be full to he has finished treatment in 5 weeks but iwll get the 1st one to you asap then =)


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## Fixx

Heavenlyhogs said:


> Chaz you are receiving the £150 as paid for the hoglet and get to keep him upon verification.
> Why is it going to take you 5 weeks to send me your vets details?as well as receipts giving full details of the problems?
> You said you have verification for the first consultation ect that's all i need.





Heavenlyhogs said:


> Chaz&ian your refunds are waiting and will be made upon your *vets invoices listing full details of consultations and treatments given*.


:bash:


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## Heavenlyhogs

yes thanks if you have the first one i would like it


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## Chazybabe

Well im going to have to get the vet to send it to me then, as i didnt ask for one when i was there. Will ring them tomorrow as need to get the results of some tests then too.


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## Heavenlyhogs

can you pm me your vets name and address aswell please
thanks


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## Heavenlyhogs

better still email them to me.
And could you send all future correspondance via email please as i wont be checking here 
thanks


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## Heavenlyhogs

I will await your email chaz,also i request the same from ian and julie within the next 24 hrs please so i can put my vet in touch with both parties vets.
thank you


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## Chazybabe

You have had my vet details for 2days how come i have not herd a thing from you and why are you changing your user name on all forums???!

You said you wanted to sort this out fast do the right thing ect, then how come it looks like your doing a disapearing act?!


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## Heavenlyhogs

*After discussing with you (ian julie & chaz)if you choose to keep your hedgehog, as far as the hedgehog is concerned a refund is mute.**When it comes to your vet bills, I have agreed to pay those for you, but with the stipulation that I receive the vet report. Until I receive that, there will be no refund.*
*I am not asking for anything more than anyone else would, and I feel that I am being reasonable in this situation.*
*I apologize that you had to go through this, but I'm more than willing to compensate you the vet bills once I receive the report and bill.*
*I have not received so far any vet reports pm's,emails or phone calls regarding this save chaz's vet details but a full vet report is still pending from both parties before any futher action is taken.*
*That is my final word on the matter.Any futher corrspondance should be made off the boards Apologies for red typing.
*


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## Chazybabe

As i have told you, ringworm does not clear up in a day.. so will be on going treatment for about 5 weeks so cannot send you a report till its finished he has to go back in dec so will be able to tell you more then.


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## Heavenlyhogs

Hi Chaz pm'd you it has now been quite some time and i would like the vet report if you have it please...the sooner i have it the sooner ian and julies money can be donated to hedgehog welfare and you can have your cash.


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## Heavenlyhogs

Come on Chaz,the rspca were here sent by yourself and ian&julie(they told me & left satisfied btw)so it's not like you wouldn't have my address now is it?Ian and julie were desperate for theirs and so were you but i can't do this without decent evidence from both parties,not based just on ian and julies.
Thanks


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## Esarosa

I thought the RSPCA weren't allowed to say who had called them? :?


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## Ragmoth

They aren't, it's all anonymous, so i think HH might be telling porkies!!


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## Lover

ooo ringworm that is painfull took me ages to get rd of mine i caught mine from a bunnie sold to me it itches and hurts and pesters you like mad.. the cream is horrible too.

hope things get sorted asap : victory:


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## happyhogs

Ragmoth said:


> They aren't, it's all anonymous, so i think HH might be telling porkies!!


she is telling porkies AGAIN cos it wasn't them!:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Lover

happyhogs said:


> she is telling porkies AGAIN cos it wasn't them!:Na_Na_Na_Na:


 
why was it u... lol


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## happyhogs

no, but not tellin' :lol2:

and I don't think we need an RSPCA report to show her up anyway (though they do report back to the person who made the complaint with details such as 'this was seen as inadequate and the person was advised to improve it...etc) this thread does it just fine....and besides the RSPCA can't unfortunately do much about a lack of ethics!


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## LEOPARD GECKO CRAZY

*hi*

chaz your ringworm seem nastly 

hope it gets better


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## Lover

happyhogs said:


> no, but not tellin' :lol2:
> 
> and I don't think we need an RSPCA report to show her up anyway (though they do report back to the person who made the complaint with details such as 'this was seen as inadequate and the person was advised to improve it...etc) this thread does it just fine....and besides the RSPCA can't unfortunately do much about a lack of ethics!


ahh right so you know who.. i dont know much on reporting and such ive rang about people few times but thats it rspca not tht gd now anyway they cud see a pig covered in pig poo n say yep it looks perfect.


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## Philldan

Actually, it was ME!!!!

And unless the RSPCA have taken to lying, then you weren't given the all clear, because the inspector reported back to me!!

I think we all know who it is that tells porkies, offers refunds, then withdraws the offer, puts animals up for sale, then closes the thread claiming they're all sold and then advertises the very same animals elsewhere the following day!!

I'm sick of all of this and I'm not even owed money, (and lucky for you I'm not, because you would have been in court by now!) if you had any intentions of paying these people what you promised, then you would have paid Ian and Julie weeks ago, why does their payment depend on Chaz providing details? - They've given you all the evidence you requested!

I won't be posting on this thread again, so slate away, but get your facts straight in future before you go accusing people!!


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## Heavenlyhogs

Happyhogs i would not even entertain whatever you typed 

Mini-hedgehogs driving pet fans wild | Metro.co.uk

That's how you see hedgies,worry about your own ethics....good luck:2thumb:
Wow and novelty factor 
Philli i couldn't give a :censor: for you either 
Now i'm waiting for chaz to respond...
excuse me ladies :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Heavenlyhogs

it's funny how the rspca are reportedly crap yet they're the first people called.Personally i couldn't care who it was.I was reported for supposedly not seeing a vet and i satisfied them with vet details...:Na_Na_Na_Na:
Nothing left for you ladies to do or do you REALLY have nothing better to do:Na_Na_Na_Na: resort to ya usual bi:censor:ing:lol2:
Like i'm worried...tell ya what why don't you both pay me a visit.i'm sure i can tie ya tongues together and bash ya heads together.:lol2:


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## Lucy_

Heavenlyhogs said:


> it's funny how the rspca are reportedly crap yet they're the first people called.Personally i couldn't care who it was.I was reported for supposedly not seeing a vet and i satisfied them with vet details...:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> Nothing left for you ladies to do or do you REALLY have nothing better to do:Na_Na_Na_Na: resort to ya usual bi:censor:ing:lol2:
> Like i'm worried...tell ya what why don't you both pay me a visit.i'm sure i can tie ya tongues together and bash ya heads together.:lol2:


i dont get it, if it wasnt bothering you then dont come back to the thread trying to justify yourself.... again!

Jeese...! Like philldan said, even if chaz hasnt supplied you with what you need there is still no reason for you not to sort ian and julie out. Are you not bothered about clearing your name and getting SOME credit back by trying to sort this mess out? I know, your prob not bothered, but i dont see how, i would feel like sh*t going through this on your part and would just want to sort everthing out asap.... and NOT on a public forum.

Lucy x


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## Mischievous_Mark

Perhaps this should be closed aas all it was intended for is to get other people invovled intentionaly or unintentionaly thats what has happened, It should be between the people who are invovled through PM or solicitors if needs be.

I also see this as a way of warning people about this breeder, however im sure there are others way of doing this rather than trashing someone on a public forum.


I am not sticking up for anyone .

I will not be looking at this thread again so reply if you must be i wont see it as ive decided to stay out of it rather than get involved.


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## Heavenlyhogs

i'm afraid just because 1 person has a case of ringworm does not pose as evidence for me that it originated from here given it's nature but chazybabes vet report would.My vet advised against holding off treatment to test each and every hog(this can take upto 6 weeks).And ian and julie do have other animals.
Ian and julies payment is being made to a charitable organisation upon supporting evidence from chazybabe but Chazybabe wanted the cash and needed it because she was not working and is ill so i choose to deal with her first.
I am moving in a short while and wont be contactable when i do which is why i would really like the report.
Nothing futher to add 
I await your reply chazybabe.


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## Chazybabe

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/off-topic-chat/241867-heavenlyhogs-has-left-building.html

Better send me your new address then just incase i send it and your already gone.. wont be any excuse to you not getting it then


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## happyhogs

Heavenlyhogs said:


> Happyhogs i would not even entertain whatever you typed
> 
> Mini-hedgehogs driving pet fans wild | Metro.co.uk
> 
> That's how you see hedgies,worry about your own ethics....good luck:2thumb:
> Wow and novelty factor
> Philli i couldn't give a :censor: for you either
> Now i'm waiting for chaz to respond...
> excuse me ladies :Na_Na_Na_Na:


Funnily enough my dear, what I ACTUALLY said to the reporter was that it was tragic that because of the added novelty factor, people were going 'wow, I can make a buck here' and it's easy because they conveniently sleep during the day and wake at night and can get by on basic care but that to do things PROPERLY took time and dedication and a real sense of responsibility. Basically I was talking about people like you, jumping on the bandwagon and doing a lousy job...but you know the press, always misquoting!

The trouble is Michelle is that you seem to think you have a limited responsibilty. I have seen from these reports that your hoglets are friendly...great, that means you do spend time socialising them, I commend you, but that is not where the buck stops. It has been fairly conclusively proved that the ringworm came from you as two hoglets, who went to seperate households, have shown it...again, not your fault, it's easily picked up. It's the attitude you have had since that has shown a lack of ethics. You should have just said 'I'm sorry and here's your refund' JOB DONE. Instead you opened it up to the forum in the first place, denied initial responsibility, implying it may have come from Ian and Julie's dogs, you said you would refund then said no, you said you would pay vet bills but have yet to do so and these two hogs went to seperate people in seperate homes and yet you seem to want evidence from Chazybabe before you pay Ian and Julie....just delay tactics. You are now pretty much saying that you are about to move and will no longer be contactable.

All of this is rude, irresponsible and bloody unfair. You have a CUSTOMER BASE. We all shy away from such terms as it implies the hogs are a product. Of course they're not, they are a living, breathing creature who YOU, by YOUR actions, brought in to this world and then shirked responsibility of. 

Do not bring my ethics into question my dear, I have never had a single complaint raised against me and even YOU have said I'm good at this, now you are just bitching. I have never bitched at you, I have never said a word about you that wasn't backed up by your own actions. I tried to help you in the early days, pointing out some mistakes kindly, diplomatically and with a VERY gentle warning that people would be offended by certain actions if you did not curb them. You continued unabated and that is why I decided I would no longer deal with you. I am the most tollerant and naturally passive person you can imagine and it takes a lot for me to get involved in things but you have provoked me to speak up as I am astounded that you continue to behave in such ways. I'd have thought that even if you don't care about these people, you'd have enough common sense to realise that you are getting yourself a terrible reputation and alienating the very people you will want to sell your hoglets to! And trust me love, it is getting around. I have been asked about you on more than one occasion!


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## Heavenlyhogs

Chaz you have had more than enough time to pull your finger out and send a report.If you do not supply it asap chaz then there is nothing i can do for you and you will loose your "right"to any refund or vet fees.You cannot buy an animal and expect money back months and months down the line as it suits,it just doesn't work like that.I've not asked nothing of no one other than "both" parties support their claims and i'm sure "anyone" would be asking for the same.Upon receipt of yor evidence my partner will make a charitable donation to whs research on ian and julies account and you get your cash.Simple.So please don't hold this up any longer.I am not refusing anybody anything,i'm asking what anyone else would.
And i disagree totally with you bonnie given the original aph ringworm thread which was highly edited by terry yourself and faith and its obvious to everyone i know.Now given that you could all actually present facts that were bull for the benefit of the post then i'm afraid nothing else would really suprise me.And i'm afraid it wont matter much what you all spread in your idle gossip because my hogs will no longer be available in the uk in anycase.
Now Chaz you have my current address,there is no forwarding address i'm afraid,i suggest you get on the case of your vet as quickly as you got on mine.This is my last visit here,and i have had the decency to let you know i'm moving in a matter of weeks the rest is up to you.


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## midori

I know nothing of this dispute other than what I have read on this thread. One thing I will say is that I would never in a million years buy anything from 'HeavenlyHogs' based on what I have read, as any complaint seems to have been dealt with horrendously, and the mud slinging is extremely unprofessional.

How someone can move without a forwarding address, I do not know. I can only assume it means tey do not wish to give the person a forwarding address? Personally if I were Chez, I'd be seeking legal advice.


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## Heavenlyhogs

midori said:


> I know nothing of this dispute other than what I have read on this thread. One thing I will say is that I would never in a million years buy anything from 'HeavenlyHogs' based on what I have read, as any complaint seems to have been dealt with horrendously, and the mud slinging is extremely unprofessional.
> 
> How someone can move without a forwarding address, I do not know. I can only assume it means tey do not wish to give the person a forwarding address? Personally if I were Chez, I'd be seeking legal advice.


Midori you are correct in stating you know nothing other than what you have read here.Now there's never been a dispute as to whether or not payments will be made and i was polite up to the point of these posts in private but i need not prove that ,however i think i am entitled to the vet report mentioned.As for mud slinging what's the saying,if ya can't beat them join them:lol2:Now these people decided to deal with it publicly in an open forum despite my offering help from their first emails about the problems and involve people it did not concern and i am entitled to defend myself.


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## Lover

Cant this go threw pm or something i think people get the point whats happened.


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## Chazybabe

Heavenlyhogs said:


> Now these people decided to deal with it publicly in an open forum and involve people it did not concern and i am entitled to defend myself.


Check the 1st post..!


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## Lover

lmau being serious i only see you making thread about moving from all ya 'haters' and all of that including this.. you could of done all this via pm email, phone calls etc and sorted it out and then it would have been more pleasent. maybe you should have thought about it a bit more.


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## Lucy_

agreed... this is to do with heavenlyhogs, and the others involved, so there was no need to start this thread to try and justify yourself. If you need a vet report... cant you just ring the vets thats chaz's hog is beeing treated at and get a breakdown or something similar from them, and just get chaz to authorise them to give out the info to yourself?? Because if it is ongoing treatment, and you are wanting a full report, then it may not be over by the time you move... and as you arent passing on a forwarding address then there will be no way for her to contact you once it is all done. So if you rung to get somesort of info now then im sure they will be able to give you a guestimate price of the fees?

Lucy


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## happyhogs

Hang on, how could Faith, Terry and I edit the original ringworm post that YOU started on THIS forum???? We have no ability to edit here, we are not 'staff' and therefore whatever is here, is here in the full, unedited version! And at no point have we 'presented facts' that were bull...you were the one that told your story and Ian, Julie and Chazybabe told their side. Our reaction was to the facts that YOU presented....namely the foot-dragging, delaying tactics, the initial passing the buck, the consequent attitude and now this moving with no forwarding address.

We are not spreading idle gossip, just getting up in arms with someone with no moral decency who does nothing but put everyone else down to try to hide her own failings. I really do hope that, just this once, you are telling the truth and that your hogs will not be available in the UK as you give animal care a bad name!


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## Lover

how do you report threads?


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## Lucy_

pm a mod i think? sometimes there is a thing u can click on that says report....?


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## Lover

Lucy_ said:


> pm a mod i think? sometimes there is a thing u can click on that says report....?


 
yeah i thought that too but i cannot see this report button i will pm a mod as i think all this should be settled via pm or email or something.


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## cornmorphs

man i'm busy today...
CLOSED


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## Lucy_

lol nothing wrong with a busy day... i think one of you closed it and one re-opend it??


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## farmercoope

Lucy_ said:


> lol nothing wrong with a busy day... i think one of you closed it and one re-opend it??


they just like watching fights!!:devil:


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## Lover

farmercoope said:


> they just like watching fights!!:devil:


:Na_Na_Na_Na: so true.. i just thought this was better off threw pm maybe they want people to be aware of whats going on..so be carefull who you buy from as this could happen.


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## Amalthea

But if you notice, HeavenlyHogs started the thread... She does seem to like the attention. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the way it comes across.


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## Lover

Amalthea said:


> But if you notice, HeavenlyHogs started the thread... She does seem to like the attention. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the way it comes across.


 
i didn't think that till the one in off topic came about then i knew it was all attention.


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## Amalthea

Yeah... I saw that one, too... *shrugs* As far as I know, those with complaints against her tried contacting her through PM, e-mail, phone, etc to begin with... But then she posted this and it seemed the only way for them to get to her was to post in this thread.


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## pgag_1_york

Heavenlyhogs said:


> Happyhogs i would not even entertain whatever you typed
> 
> Mini-hedgehogs driving pet fans wild | Metro.co.uk


dont 4get this link tho :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Prickly cannibals uncurl to be new must-have pet - Times Online

or this all based on lies: Prickly problem for worried mum-of-two (From Echo)

hope you leave the uk soon :2thumb:


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## angeldog

personally im just sick of people who claim to be leaving forums, then thier back. then thier off again, back again and on and on. 
then thier not posting anymore, then thier the next one to post.
this is not the first or last time youve done this.
HH im sorry but you made your own bed, on this thread in particular.
you did tell chazybabe you werent going to give her a refund now so you cant deny it.
just make up your mind and stick to it, people just want you to be responsible and get this sorted out. theres no reason you cant give a forwarding address, unless your going underground, rebranding yourself, that of course would mean re-registering your hogs with false details, unless your not registering litters


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## KathyM

Can I just say a huge thank you to those who have shed light on things in this thread? I have a friend who was looking into APHs and who was looking at the OP's site. Lucky escape after reading about this diabolical treatment of animals and their new owners.

I don't understand why Julie's refund, to a charity for heaven's sake, is dependent on an entirely unrelated owner's cooperation? Maybe this was all to delay paying out around Xmas? Either way I would've gone to small claims court by now, as they're clearly scam artists. 

Best of luck getting a fair and speedy resolution to this! Heavelyhogs, that would mean getting the chequebook out right now......


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## Athravan

cornmorphs said:


> man i'm busy today...
> CLOSED


What he said... but I'll actually close it :whistling2:


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