# are fwcs deadly



## michaelloax (Dec 10, 2008)

as title says


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

not really, but then any venom has the potential to be deadly.


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## nitro (Dec 8, 2009)

As far as I know no one has died from a false water cobra bite, there are pictures about of nasty reactions to bites, i suppose in theory you could die from an Anaphylactic shock


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

FWC's have never been recorded to kill anybody, and considering the length of time and numbers that have been kept in captivity it can be said fairly conclusively that they are not 'deadly' to humans. A number of serious localised reactions are on record. There are a number of colubrids that are not nearly as well known which may well be capable of serious envenomation, _Thrasops jacksonii_ for example.


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## Piraya1 (Feb 26, 2007)

Without having googled venom compounds, are they capable of necrosis?


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

According to WCH, highly unlikely

WCH Clinical Toxinology Resources


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## mattsdragons (Jul 6, 2009)

someone has died of a fwc bite but he let i chew on him for like 5 mins because he thought is was not venomous! (idiot)


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

> Without having googled venom compounds, are they capable of necrosis?


I believe metalloproteases have been isolated from gigas venom, but I have never read a report of necrosis and the quantities of venom are unlikely to be sufficient.



> someone has died of a fwc bite but he let i chew on him for like 5 mins because he thought is was not venomous! (idiot)


Do you have a source? I've heard a few people make this claim but have never seen it substantiated (and I would be very suprised if it was true).

David.


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## mattsdragons (Jul 6, 2009)

this will sound like the others but someone who i know who keeps fwc's told me:blush:


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## Jczreptiles (Sep 1, 2009)

I have heard that the venom is deadly but the snake does not have a good enough delivery system to deliver enough to kill the average human.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

Jczreptiles said:


> I have heard that the venom is deadly but the snake does not have a good enough delivery system to deliver enough to kill the average human.


Everything I read on the matter states that Gigas venom in comparable to that of timber rattlers but lacking any kind of complex delivery system is therefore not as dangerous. 
I avoid getting nailed by mine as I know I'm anaphylactic anyway... 

Kat


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

Bah... stupid comp...


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Twiglet said:


> Everything I read on the matter states that Gigas venom in comparable to that of timber rattlers but lacking any kind of complex delivery system is therefore not as dangerous.
> I avoid getting nailed by mine as I know I'm anaphylactic anyway...
> 
> Kat


Im intrigued by this, people often compare it to that of C.horridus, can anyone go into more detail on it?


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## masticophis (Jan 14, 2007)

Twiglet said:


> Everything I read on the matter states that Gigas venom in comparable to that of timber rattlers but lacking any kind of complex delivery system is therefore not as dangerous.
> I avoid getting nailed by mine as I know I'm anaphylactic anyway...
> 
> Kat


Whilst I'm not denying that rattler venom is pretty toxic, the main reason rattlers can kill so well compared to a FWC is the amount delivered. One bee won't kill a healthy human through venom, but lots of bees can and do. Drop for drop timber rattler venom is not the most powerful compared to a lot of other snakes, colubrids included. Anaphylatic shock is different to venom actions. 

Also I seem to remember that it's only certain components in the venom that people react to, so if you are allergic to bee stings then snake bites, scorp stings etc may not do anything to you. I would check that with a venom expert first though.

Mike


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

> Im intrigued by this, people often compare it to that of C.horridus, can anyone go into more detail on it?


Likewise... Have there been any serious studies? I have spent a fair while looking for more useful info as to gigas potency but little of it was use. 

Kat


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

masticophis said:


> Whilst I'm not denying that rattler venom is pretty toxic, the main reason rattlers can kill so well compared to a FWC is the amount delivered. One bee won't kill a healthy human through venom, but lots of bees can and do. Drop for drop timber rattler venom is not the most powerful compared to a lot of other snakes, colubrids included. Anaphylatic shock is different to venom actions.
> 
> Also I seem to remember that it's only certain components in the venom that people react to, so if you are allergic to bee stings then snake bites, scorp stings etc may not do anything to you. I would check that with a venom expert first though.
> 
> Mike


Im no expert, but you are right, venoms are so complex and varied that if you are allergic to a bee sting then you wont necessarily be allergic to other venoms.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

> Im no expert, but you are right, venoms are so complex and varied that if you are allergic to a bee sting then you wont necessarily be allergic to other venoms.


Exactly... thats the only reason I can justify keeping rear fanged species. I'd still do everything in my power to avoid bites because I'm reactive to so many things that its not a risk worth taking. If I do get bitten, thats when the adrenaline injection comes out!
To the OP, it just occured to me that this is in the DWA sub-forum. 
FWC's are not on DWA. 
Am I correct in thinking that the only rear fanged species on DWA is the boomslang? Or is this b*llocks?

Kat


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

Twiglet said:


> Am I correct in thinking that the only rear fanged species on DWA is the boomslang? Or is this b*llocks?
> 
> Kat


 boomslangs are, mangroves used to be, i think there may be more, but we dont have it over here:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Jczreptiles (Sep 1, 2009)

naja-naja said:


> boomslangs are, mangroves used to be, i think there may be more, but we dont have it over here:Na_Na_Na_Na:


 Also Asian vine snakes are on the DWA.


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## Piraya1 (Feb 26, 2007)

naja-naja said:


> boomslangs are, mangroves used to be, i think there may be more, but we dont have it over here:Na_Na_Na_Na:


Then it should be so that any respectable keeper should go out of their way to make sure they meet the standards to the dwa requirements of the british isles. We are not fortunate to not have the DWA, we could do with it, and some could even do with an evaluation test on competance, experience and knowledge.


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

Piraya1 said:


> Then it should be so that any respectable keeper should go out of their way to make sure they meet the standards to the dwa requirements of the british isles. We are not fortunate to not have the DWA, we could do with it, and some could even do with an evaluation test on competance, experience and knowledge.


 it would be good in theory, but in practice they'll cock it up rightly. my main problem with the dwa is that there is crap on it that shouldn't be there. the only things on it should be animals that do have the ability to easily kill an adult human without extenuating circumstances such as age, adverse health, intoxication etc.
the other thing is the way some councils charge ridiculous amount to discourage people, others never grant them.
tbh if we did ave an incedent over here it would probably fall under existing laws such as animal cruelty or public saftey.


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## mattsdragons (Jul 6, 2009)

Jczreptiles said:


> Also Asian vine snakes are on the DWA.


thats the argentinian long nose isant it?


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

naja-naja said:


> it would be good in theory, but in practice they'll cock it up rightly. my main problem with the dwa is that there is crap on it that shouldn't be there. the only things on it should be animals that do have the ability to easily kill an adult human without extenuating circumstances such as age, adverse health, intoxication etc.
> the other thing is the way some councils charge ridiculous amount to discourage people, others never grant them.
> tbh if we did ave an incedent over here it would probably fall under existing laws such as animal cruelty or public saftey.


but there are snakes on the DWA act that wont kill you but will still put you in hospital and needing treatment, IMO they should be on there


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## paraman (Oct 27, 2007)

mattsdragons said:


> thats the argentinian long nose isant it?


Asia's not quite South America is it?:whistling2:


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## kenneally1 (Feb 17, 2009)

Isnt the twig snake on the dwa? thelotornis, something or other.


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## Azemiops (May 1, 2008)

Asian Vine snakes (_Ahaetulla_ sp.) arent listed on the DWA schedule. The only Asian colubrids listed are 2 species of Keelback; _Rhabdophis tigrinus_ and _Rhabdophis subminiatus_.


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## Mark O'Shea (Nov 5, 2009)

1. False water cobras can deliver wicked bites but are not considered deadly. I was bitten, my mother was bitten, John Foden was bitten and had a rough time, and a keeper at another zoo was bitten on both hands and ended up with a pair of catcher's gloves. Although they have not caused serious bites, there are no reports of fatalities (see Warrell in Campbell & Lamar 2 vols, an excellent review of American rear-fangs). They are xenodontines, C.&S.American rear-fangs that can cause a few problems with the most dangerous being Philodryas olfersii (fatality) and Phalotris lemniscatus (near-fatal).

2. Some people die from a single bee sting, they are hypersensitive, and some even react to bites from gartersnakes, extreme hypersensitivity. You can achieve these levels of hypersensitivity by injecting yourself with venom periodically as some people do in the vain hope it will prevent them dying from a bite, increases the chanced more like and that is the opinion of the experts in snakebite, not just mine.

3. I carry self-injectable adrenaline too but would only use it if I had breathing difficulties, not automatically after a bite - this to Twiglet, and FWC are not DWA, true.

4. The DWA rear-fangs are boomslang (Dispholidus typus), African twig, bird or vinesnakes (Thelotornis spp.), the two species I mentioned in 1 above and two keelbacks (Rhabdophis tigrinus and R.subminiatus), nothing else at the moment I think, no FWC, no mangroves, not even Blandings which has a wicked bite, or Natal blacksnake, parrot snakes or brown treesnake. Asian vinesnakes (Ahaetulla) are not DWA and never were. Argentinian longnose, what the hell is that mattsdragons, maybe an Oxybelis, there are some big old longnosed Oxybelis vinesnakes or more likely a confusion with Philodryas baroni, the long-nosed member of the large genus that contains P.olfersii, already mentioned and DWA and the remarkably similar and equally pissy P.viridissimus - I know these species, have caught them both in Brazil and Guyana, but the southern long-nosed fellow is common in captivity at the to best of my knowledge has caused not problems.

Done for tonight and got to begin preparing a lecture tomorrow, else it won't get done, so must avoid being tempted back to talk to you guys.

Mark


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## Mark O'Shea (Nov 5, 2009)

*another species*

I forgot another serious S.American snake, not one in trade, Tachymenis peruviana. I will pull some back-fanged data together and post it when I have a moment.

mark


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## Jabba the mentor (Nov 13, 2008)

When I was working in South America one of the guys in the village died as a result of a bite from a FWC.


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## mattsdragons (Jul 6, 2009)

Mark O'Shea said:


> 1. False water cobras can deliver wicked bites but are not considered deadly. I was bitten, my mother was bitten, John Foden was bitten and had a rough time, and a keeper at another zoo was bitten on both hands and ended up with a pair of catcher's gloves. Although they have not caused serious bites, there are no reports of fatalities (see Warrell in Campbell & Lamar 2 vols, an excellent review of American rear-fangs). They are xenodontines, C.&S.American rear-fangs that can cause a few problems with the most dangerous being Philodryas olfersii (fatality) and Phalotris lemniscatus (near-fatal).
> 
> 2. Some people die from a single bee sting, they are hypersensitive, and some even react to bites from gartersnakes, extreme hypersensitivity. You can achieve these levels of hypersensitivity by injecting yourself with venom periodically as some people do in the vain hope it will prevent them dying from a bite, increases the chanced more like and that is the opinion of the experts in snakebite, not just mine.
> 
> ...


well sorry, i did'nt know!


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## Jczreptiles (Sep 1, 2009)

mattsdragons said:


> well sorry, i did'nt know!


 I think it is actualy a sub-species of Asian Vine. I was after an Asian Vine a couple of years ago and every shop or wholesaler told me they were DWA so i'm glad you have mentioned that Mark O'shea as I will put extra effort into getting one now.


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## kelboy (Feb 10, 2009)

Jczreptiles said:


> I think it is actualy a sub-species of Asian Vine. I was after an Asian Vine a couple of years ago and every shop or wholesaler told me they were DWA so i'm glad you have mentioned that Mark O'shea as I will put extra effort into getting one now.


From what I've seen and heard, the _Oxybelis_ and _Ahaetulla_ are almost impossible to keep in captivity, even as CB.


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## masticophis (Jan 14, 2007)

Rear fanged covered under the DWA are.

Malpolon All species - Montpellier snakes
Thelotornis All species - African twig, bird or vine snakes
Dispholidus typus - Boomslang
Rhabdophis subminiatus - Red necked keelback
Rhabdophis tigrinus - Japanese tiger snake
Elapomorphus lemniscatus - Argentine black headed snake
Philodryas olfersii - South american green racer (related to the longnose, barrons racer)
Tachymenis peruviana - Peruvian racer
Xenodon severus - Amazon false viper

Of these, the boomslang and african vine snakes have certainly killed, i'm pretty sure the keelbacks have both killed.I believe the rest haven't caused deaths but have been responsible for severe envenomations. 

The two rear fanged that came off the DWA were the mangrove, Boiga dendrophila and the sand snakes, Psammophis.

Mike


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

kelboy said:


> From what I've seen and heard, the _Oxybelis_ and _Ahaetulla_ are almost impossible to keep in captivity, even as CB.


???? sorry just found this funny if something is captive bread then they by definition CANT be almost impossible to keep:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## masticophis (Jan 14, 2007)

leecb0 said:


> ???? sorry just found this funny if something is captive bread then they by definition CANT be almost impossible to keep:Na_Na_Na_Na:


LOL

They can be kept, Oxybelis is supposed to be pretty easy (for that type of snake), ahaetulla is much trickier, Very prone to stress. 

Mike


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## paraman (Oct 27, 2007)

masticophis said:


> LOL
> 
> They can be kept, Oxybelis is supposed to be pretty easy (for that type of snake), ahaetulla is much trickier, Very prone to stress.
> 
> Mike


I kept ahaetulla in the 1980's they were a nightmare and would only eat anoles. If I had the tools available then i.e. internet etc I would have been able to do far more research than buy them for their amazing eyes. I found out the hard way they were rear fanged, nice little bite in that soft bit of skin between the thumb and first finger:gasp:


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## kelboy (Feb 10, 2009)

kelboy said:


> From what I've seen and heard, the _Oxybelis_ and _Ahaetulla_ are *almost* impossible to keep in captivity, even as CB.





leecb0 said:


> ???? sorry just found this funny if something is captive bread then they by definition CANT be almost impossible to keep:Na_Na_Na_Na:


: victory:


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*Montpelliers*

I'm surprised Montpelliers are under DWA, am I wrong to do so?

I know little about them except that their envenomation and delivery system is not that potent/high?


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## Mememe (Feb 15, 2009)

maffy said:


> I'm surprised Montpelliers are under DWA, am I wrong to do so?
> 
> I know little about them except that their envenomation and delivery system is not that potent/high?


Very little is known about the bite and envenomations are rare, but have resulted in quite strong neurotoxic symptoms such as ptosis.

Better to be cautious than foolhardy - they have large rear teeth (enough to make 'necking' them hazardous when they try to stab your thumb) and bite down with some force. If tease fed, I have observed one biting and chewing with its rear teeth; only to release. This hints at envenomation on a defensive bite.


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## masticophis (Jan 14, 2007)

maffy said:


> I'm surprised Montpelliers are under DWA, am I wrong to do so?
> 
> I know little about them except that their envenomation and delivery system is not that potent/high?


I know a lot of people were surprised they didn't come off DWA at the time, Most think there is unlikely to be a huge dfanger though they definitely have venom and aren't afraid to bite.



Mememe said:


> Very little is known about the bite and envenomations are rare, but have resulted in quite strong neurotoxic symptoms such as ptosis.
> 
> Better to be cautious than foolhardy - they have large rear teeth (enough to make 'necking' them hazardous when they try to stab your thumb) and bite down with some force. If tease fed, I have observed one biting and chewing with its rear teeth; only to release. This hints at envenomation on a defensive bite.
> 
> image


Yes I've seen them chew on a defensive bite (on a snake hook handle), the little sod would not let go and there was a fair bit of liquid (venom ?) on the handle afterwards.

Just out of interest have you seen _monspessulanus_ hood, I've seen loads of pictures of _moilensis_ hooding but none of _monspessulanus_, I've seen them huffing and puffing and striking but never a hood.

Mike


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