# Exotic pets 'can endanger' UK wildlife



## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

BBC News - Exotic pets 'can endanger' UK wildlife


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## royal ball (Oct 19, 2011)

its sad that some people do seem to set pets free. if you aint prepared to offer a animal a home for life then you shouldn"t get one. maybe the government should introduce a chipping system for pets so they can be traced back to the owner. then responsible pet owners would not get tarred with the same brush.


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

People dont let there animals go , its irresponsible people letting their pets escape

If raccoons ,skunks etc are going to have such a bad impact on wildlife ,then you might as well have every domestic cat put to sleep as these have a massive impact on wildlife ,no legislation has ever been in place for this.

One last thing , the exotics awareness day i dont get ,how does it show people exotic animals needs when they are either on a harness and lead or in a dog crate ,this makes exotic keeping look very easy.Also i believe most animals on show are friendly, which again is quite misleading


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

that guy was a total smeg head. even if there were stricter licencing in order to keep exotic pets the 'small minority' causing the problems are still going to cut corners and it'll be the responsible owners that suffer from it, it's the same for responsible dog owners, the ones who do it by the book and do everything in their power to be responsible are shit on by the idiot owners making it more and more difficult and giving the animals the bad name.

makes me so flippin mad.


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

animalsbeebee said:


> People dont let there animals go , its irresponsible people letting their pets escape
> 
> If raccoons ,skunks etc are going to have such a bad impact on wildlife ,then you might as well have every domestic cat put to sleep as these have a massive impact on wildlife ,no legislation has ever been in place for this.
> 
> One last thing , the exotics awareness day i dont get ,how does it show people exotic animals needs when they are either on a harness and lead or in a dog crate ,this makes exotic keeping look very easy.Also i believe most animals on show are friendly, which again is quite misleading


All good points. Except there is no real scientific evidence that cats actually cause much of a problem. I wish someone smarter than me would do a proper study but they haven't. However, we know for a fact that racoons would cause serious damage is they were released/escped....it would be a nightmare.

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally against cats being allowed to wander and I'm totally in favour of culling feral cats. We have loads of tabbys living wild and the effects they are having on Scottish wild cat populations are devastating. Unfortunately they can and do interbreed, most Scottish wildcats are now hybrids....

I'd be quite happy if cats were DWA and forced to live indoors with an outdoor run. I'd also be quite happy if escaped or released cats were caught or killed TBH. If I let my greyhound wander around killing wildlife I'd be in big trouble, and rightly so. Why should cats be any different.


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## Loderuna (Mar 9, 2010)

bobby said:


> All good points. Except there is no real scientific evidence that cats actually cause much of a problem. I wish someone smarter than me would do a proper study but they haven't. QUOTE]
> 
> I'm sure I read an article about an actual study in BBC wildlife magazine last year, which showed very strong evidence of a significant impact of pet cats on the wild bird population.
> 
> ...


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## sykesy88 (Jan 9, 2009)

DWA for cats, thats just stupid they are not dangerous or wild. Plus when domestic cats kill wild birds and mice they are filling the place of the wild cat that humans have made rare by destroying there natural habbitat, domestic cats have been in the UK for hunderds of years and there isnt any proof they have killed off any of our native species. It seems obvious to me that humans are responsible for the resent decline in birds in mammals by the way we have treated there enviroment. 

As for banning exotic species this may make irresponsible owners who already have these animals, release these animals into the wild. I am against fur farming, but some fur farms released there mink into the wild when fur farms became illegal in this country. Maybe micro chiping, rules on neutering animals kept as pets and making breeders register the animals they breed could be introduced to improve the welfare and management of exotics and domestics in the UK.

Some exotic species also struggle to survive in the wild if they have been brought up in a domestic environment such as raccoons, many people in North America rescue baby raccoons then release them and if these raccoons are not taught how to survive in the wild they die.


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

What native cat has been replaced by 8 million or more domestic cats.

Most animals kept by enthusiasts are opportunist scavengers ,not predators.


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

sykesy88 said:


> DWA for cats, thats just stupid they are not dangerous or wild. Plus when domestic cats kill wild birds and mice they are filling the place of the wild cat that humans have made rare by destroying there natural habbitat, domestic cats have been in the UK for hunderds of years and there isnt any proof they have killed off any of our native species. It seems obvious to me that humans are responsible for the resent decline in birds in mammals by the way we have treated there enviroment.
> 
> As for banning exotic species this may make irresponsible owners who already have these animals, release these animals into the wild. I am against fur farming, but some fur farms released there mink into the wild when fur farms became illegal in this country. Maybe micro chiping, rules on neutering animals kept as pets and making breeders register the animals they breed could be introduced to improve the welfare and management of exotics and domestics in the UK.
> 
> Some exotic species also struggle to survive in the wild if they have been brought up in a domestic environment such as raccoons, many people in North America rescue baby raccoons then release them and if these raccoons are not taught how to survive in the wild they die.


Come back with a real argument, then we can discuss it? :lol2:


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Non-native or Alien Invasive Species are set to be one of the biggest issues we face as keepers, there is another thread on RFUK relating to this [somewhere]. The programme today on the BBC and the follow on programme set to be screened tomorrow [Monday] are merely a prelude to what will come in the future. Sadly they are unlikely to be a balance at this issue.

I do not know who the gentleman was purporting to be ‘conservationist’ in today’s programme, but to me he appeared to be more of a protectionist rather than and conservationist, the former are opposed to animals being kept in captivity. He referred to racoons spreading across Europe and appeared to imply they were escaped pets, this is not true. Racoons were deliberately released in Germany during the 1930’s, further escapes occurred during World War II from fur farms. 

It is illegal to release non-native species and this is what should be concentrated on, racoons would have an impact on the natural environment if they became established in the UK, emphasis on if! So rather then talking about bans, what we should be discussing is introducing self regulation, there are far to many racoons being kept in the UK to ban them, and any attempts to do so would have negative effects as it would undoubtedly result in precisely what you are trying to avoid – mass release of animals. 

The most environmentally damaging mammals are cats, rats and goats, not just in the UK, but globally. In the UK goats are not a major issue, but in others parts of the world they are a massive problem. In the UK the most destructive mammal is the domestic cat, responsible for slaughtering 250 million wild animals a year, if we are truly concerned about the environment and wildlife then cats are what we should be looking to control! 

Ultimately the non-native species bandwagon will be jumped on by all the raving nutcases out there with who will endeavour hijack this for their own agenda of banning the keeping of so called exotics.


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## sykesy88 (Jan 9, 2009)

Okay i understand and agree that domestic cats are damageing to the environment, and i agree that feral cats should be culled and there needs to be a little more control with the domestic cat population as there are many feral cats in the wild and homeless domestic cats in rescue centers. But putting them on DWA list would be extreme, i think people should be pressured into neutering there cats and other pets to control the population of them maybe there should be a law to neuter all cats kept to be pets and make sure breeders register the cats and they breed. Maby as with dogs you should have a lisence to breed cats and some of these exotic animals too. And i would say the most enviromentally damaging mammals worldwide are PEOPLE then cats, rats and goats lol.


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

sykesy88 said:


> Okay i understand and agree that domestic cats are damageing to the environment, and i agree that feral cats should be culled and there needs to be a little more control with the domestic cat population as there are many feral cats in the wild and homeless domestic cats in rescue centers. But putting them on DWA list would be extreme, i think people should be pressured into neutering there cats and other pets to control the population of them maybe there should be a law to neuter all cats kept to be pets and make sure breeders register the cats and they breed. Maby as with dogs you should have a lisence to breed cats and some of these exotic animals too. And i would say the most enviromentally damaging mammals worldwide are PEOPLE then cats, rats and goats lol.


Why would it be extreme?
They are no less dangerous than some of the other small cat species that are already DWA and far more adaptable....


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## RaccoonsRule (Aug 24, 2009)

Totally agree Chris! I bet half my comments on particular of how 'cats' are more damaging to our environment will be cut of the debate tomorrow! I agreed to carry out this filming to protect of Exotic Mammals (especially Raccoons, hence why I foundered The British Raccoon Society). Sadly there is to many out there who hate Exotic keepers fall stop! We (especially sellers) need to prove we can police this ourselves and show Exotics can be kept safely and responsibly!


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## sykesy88 (Jan 9, 2009)

Dangerous wild animal licence is for animals that are dangerous and wild lol. Are domestic cats a wild species, NO. Are Domestic cats dangerous, NO. How many domestic cats have killed and injured people, few people have died of bacterial infections from being bitten by feral cats, people have had minor scratches and bite injures from Domestic cat. Far more people have been injured and killed by domestic dogs, and some exotics such as boa constrictors are more likely to kill someone. Would you like them on the DWA, i wouldnt, but if thats your opinion then you basically want every pet on the DWA lol


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

sykesy88 said:


> Dangerous wild animal licence is for animals that are dangerous and wild lol. Are domestic cats a wild species, NO. Are Domestic cats dangerous, NO. How many domestic cats have killed and injured people, few people have died of bacterial infections from being bitten by feral cats, people have had minor scratches and bite injures from Domestic cat. Far more people have been injured and killed by domestic dogs, and some exotics such as boa constrictors are more likely to kill someone. Would you like them on the DWA, i wouldnt, but if thats your opinion then you basically want every pet on the DWA lol


*sigh*

There are other species of small cat that require a DWA licence that are not dangerous....and cats are classed as semi-domesticated in the UK, so can be put on the list :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Seriously, stop arguing for the sake of it..

Also, boas have been involved in one death in the UK and it was accidental :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

can't belive i'm in the background of that clip:gasp:


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## GlassWalker (Jun 15, 2011)

Last time I was looking at what was or wasn't on DWA as far as cats (big or small) were concerned, it looked like the DWA was written in a way that basically any cat other than a domestic cat is DWA (until adequately diluted by crossing with domestics). I would love to see some smaller wild cats to be de-listed, but there's not the political or other motivation for it to happen so the status quo will remain.

Back to the thread's main point, I kinda see both sides for the possible regulation of non-native species that can have a significant impact on native wildlife. I don't think DWA is the mechanism for that though, and an outright ban is overkill. Some other licence might be applicable for those non-native species which are of significant probability of surviving indefinitely in the wild. I would think a large proportion of so called exotic pets would have a hard time surviving the UK winter though so wouldn't be included anyway.


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## sykesy88 (Jan 9, 2009)

bobby said:


> *sigh*
> 
> There are other species of small cat that require a DWA licence that are not dangerous....and cats are classed as semi-domesticated in the UK, so can be put on the list :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> ...


Lol my point and opinion is that there should be some restrictions on keeping some exotic species and in my opinion there shouldn't be a ban on keeping exotics. And there probably should be some restrictions on breeding on neutering pet cats as they are extremely adaptable if they become feral. But puting cats on DWA is just stupid lol, A man falling down the stairs is accidental, but then him being eating by his boa is his snakes instinct which is unfortunate, but no domestic cats instinctively kill people. By the way i am not saying boas sould be put on the DWA. I am just making my point, and the small cats on the DWA are probably less dangerous to the environment then domestic cats but to people they are more dangerous to people.:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

they woldent really be 'exotic' if they would live in uk climate anyway


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

sykesy88 said:


> Lol my point and opinion is that there should be some restrictions on keeping some exotic species and in my opinion there shouldn't be a ban on keeping exotics. And there probably should be some restrictions on breeding on neutering pet cats as they are extremely adaptable if they become feral. But puting cats on DWA is just stupid lol, A man falling down the stairs is accidental, but then him being eating by his boa is his snakes instinct which is unfortunate, but no domestic cats instinctively kill people. By the way i am not saying boas sould be put on the DWA. I am just making my point, and the small cats on the DWA are probably less dangerous to the environment then domestic cats but to people they are more dangerous to people.:Na_Na_Na_Na:


The boa didn't deliberately kill him....I'm not an idiot, I know what accidental means.....

Call the licence what you want....it doesn't matter. Putting them on the DWA would not be stupid....I'm not going over this again.

I'm giving you the reasons why I think that, and you're coming back with "that's stupid" based on nothing. Stop arguing....


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

As much as I dislike domestic cats, murdering little buggers, clearly they cannot, and should not be included on the DWAA, a) they are not dangerous, and b) they are domesticated - both issues preclude them from inclusion on the Act. However, neither do I believe should they be allowed to roam free, indeed I would suggest as the law stands today it is already illegal to allow a cat to roam free! That said this is something that will never be enforced, sadly. Which begs the question if we are not going to enforce current laws, should we really be contemplating news ones?


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## Tedster (Nov 24, 2010)

Yeah ban it, force it underground, so the ANIMALS SUFFER ! . Thats a really good idea....... NOT !, its not broke so dont fix it ! :devil:


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## Darlo_Gal (Sep 24, 2008)

I would like to see cats regulated as many others do. If my greyhound killed a cat that came into our garden he would be to blame, if a driver runs over a cat the driver gets the blame! It's ridiculous however I can't see them ever being put on the DWA for the simple face that the DWA is there to protect the public NOT the keeper or animal itself so it's just not plausible.

I don't keep any exotic furries so can't comment on whether them really but I know this problem also faces our reptiles and is something we shouldn't just brush off as talk...


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## sykesy88 (Jan 9, 2009)

bobby said:


> The boa didn't deliberately kill him....I'm not an idiot, I know what accidental means.....
> 
> Call the licence what you want....it doesn't matter. Putting them on the DWA would not be stupid....I'm not going over this again.
> 
> I'm giving you the reasons why I think that, and you're coming back with "that's stupid" based on nothing. Stop arguing....


Sorry for saying thats stupid, that a bit argumentative of me, i didnt read my post back to me in that way, so sorry for that, my opinian remains the same though, and i will stop arguing with you about cats on the DWA.:thumb:


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

i cant get the clip to play on my laptop so what are they actually defining as 'exotic pets'? just the mammals or everything thats not native?

only ask as this comes to light quite often regarding bird of prey ownership, and the number of those that disapear into the british countryside each year (which, il wager, is far higher in number than any other non-native species).

a ban on anything not native is stupid, i lost a hamster for the best part of a year once, assumed it was long dead, then found it eating the christmas decorations. it lived for another year after that, so not only could it survive easily but it didnt appear to have done it much harm. cant see them banning hamsters any time soon though :whistling2:

incidently, dont we already have some laws relating to releasing and/or escaping invasive species? only ask as its something i found doing research in giant african land snails, that could have been in america though.

also while i remember, louie theroux's doing 'americas weirdest exotic pets' or something similar next week. incase anyone missed the ads :whistling2:


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

seems to just be mammals they are talking about in the clip, as there was a rep stall there and it wasn't in the clip, neither were the birds, or ferrets actually (count as domestic?)...

I don't really understand what their argument is to be quite honest, if one pet raccoon escaped it would do equal or less damage than one feral cat, it couldn't breed unless more than one escaped in the same area.

Quite agree that if a ban was to be put in place would cause far more damage, as people would mass release their pets... It's already illegal to release them into the wild anyway, it's just the odd accident. Though... there were quite a few accidents recently, skunks, raccoons, genets... a ban isn't the way to go about it but people do need to be more responsible and maybe made aware that they are escape artists.

(Also, regarding the topic a few pages back: there are quite a few wild cats that are NOT on the DWA, and you can't put domestic cats on it... Basically anything equal size or smaller than a domestic you are able to keep without a lisence)


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## sykesy88 (Jan 9, 2009)

Many people are suggesting that cats are harmful to our enviroment in the UK, but this isnt a fact and seems harsh. Cats have lived here hundreds of years and not been responsible for any extinctions of any local wildlife species apart from inbreeding with the scottish wild cat, it seems harsh to me that people are blaming them for the decline of our wildlife. In my opoinion the decline in our native wildlife is mainly due to people cutting trees down in there gardens giving less breeding places and places of refuge for birds. And busy roads that kill tons of wildlife and domestic cats. And the the strange weather patterns we have had in recent years. Am not saying i am correct am just saying this would make more sense to me as these are recent changes and cats have been in the UK for hundrads of years. Plus the main prey for cats is mice, rats and voles, non of these are in danger of becoming extinct, if owt the population of these needs to be kept down. 
The RSPB think domestic cats are not practically harmful to our wildlife link to this article is:

http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/gardening/unwantedvisitors/cats/birddeclines.aspx

I would agree cats dont help with the decline of our wildlife, mainly birds, just think it is harsh to blame them as it isnt a fact that they are responsible for the decline of UK wildlife.


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

The effects on the wildcat alone are good enough reason to start doing something about them, IMHO.


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## sykesy88 (Jan 9, 2009)

bobby said:


> The effects on the wildcat alone are good enough reason to start doing something about them, IMHO.


I agree with you, but i believe that problem should be sorted around and in the area of which the Scotish wild cat lives, maybe in parts of england too, it would be good if they where reintroduced. I was posting that cats in my opinion are not to blame for the decline of our other wildlife. Maybe a rule of not letting un-neutered cats out to roam free would help with them breeding to wild cats and help with controlling the feral cat population:thumb:


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

sykesy88 said:


> I agree with you, but i believe that problem should be sorted around and in the area of which the Scotish wild cat lives, maybe in parts of england too, it would be good if they where reintroduced. I was posting that cats in my opinion are not to blame for the decline of our other wildlife. Maybe a rule of not letting un-neutered cats out to roam free would help with them breeding to wild cats and help with controlling the feral cat population:thumb:


Agreed. I already said that there was no evidence that they had a big effect on British wildlife.


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

sykesy88 said:


> Many people are suggesting that cats are harmful to our enviroment in the UK, but this isnt a fact and seems harsh. Cats have lived here hundreds of years and not been responsible for any extinctions of any local wildlife species apart from inbreeding with the scottish wild cat, it seems harsh to me that people are blaming them for the decline of our wildlife. In my opoinion the decline in our native wildlife is mainly due to people cutting trees down in there gardens giving less breeding places and places of refuge for birds. And busy roads that kill tons of wildlife and domestic cats. And the the strange weather patterns we have had in recent years. Am not saying i am correct am just saying this would make more sense to me as these are recent changes and cats have been in the UK for hundrads of years. Plus the main prey for cats is mice, rats and voles, non of these are in danger of becoming extinct, if owt the population of these needs to be kept down.
> The RSPB think domestic cats are not practically harmful to our wildlife link to this article is:
> 
> http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/gardening/unwantedvisitors/cats/birddeclines.aspx
> ...


but cats are knowed for killing more wildlife than any other uk pet and i'm not evan going to count how many 'help my cats brouht in a slo worm' threads on here.

if i let a raccon walk about everywhere i'd be shoouted at becaus ethey will kill wildlife, how different is a cat?


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

fardilis said:


> but cats are knowed for killing more wildlife than any other uk pet and i'm not evan going to count how many 'help my cats brouht in a slo worm' threads on here.
> 
> if i let a raccon walk about everywhere i'd be shoouted at becaus ethey will kill wildlife, how different is a cat?


:whistling2:


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

sykesy88 said:


> Many people are suggesting that cats are harmful to our enviroment in the UK, but this isnt a fact and seems harsh. Cats have lived here hundreds of years and not been responsible for any extinctions of any local wildlife species apart from inbreeding with the scottish wild cat, it seems harsh to me that people are blaming them for the decline of our wildlife. In my opoinion the decline in our native wildlife is mainly due to people cutting trees down in there gardens giving less breeding places and places of refuge for birds. And busy roads that kill tons of wildlife and domestic cats. And the the strange weather patterns we have had in recent years. Am not saying i am correct am just saying this would make more sense to me as these are recent changes and cats have been in the UK for hundrads of years. Plus the main prey for cats is mice, rats and voles, non of these are in danger of becoming extinct, if owt the population of these needs to be kept down.
> The RSPB think domestic cats are not practically harmful to our wildlife link to this article is:
> 
> http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/gardening/unwantedvisitors/cats/birddeclines.aspx
> ...


The RSPB arguments are totally disingenuous, for them it’s purely a political stance because so much of their income comes from cat keepers and they are terrified of upsetting them. Anyone with a modicum of intelligences knows that cats are significant predators of birds, suggesting they are not simply beggars belief.


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## GlassWalker (Jun 15, 2011)

Is the complaint here that cats kill at all, not if what they kill is significant or not? It may or may not be a big number, but that doesn't necessarily make it significant with regards to the overall population of their victims.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

GlassWalker said:


> Is the complaint here that cats kill at all, not if what they kill is significant or not? It may or may not be a big number, but that doesn't necessarily make it significant with regards to the overall population of their victims.


Cats are major predator of our native wildlife that is an inescapable fact, just as they are non-native species – they simply do not belong in the ecosystem. The argument that non-native species are a threat to out native fauna has merit. However, unless we are prepared to deal with the issue unilaterally, and that means dealing with the difficult issue of domestic cats that are not only munching their way through our native fauna but are ‘humping’ our native species of cat into extinction, then this is an issue that will be hijacked by minority interest groups, i.e. ‘the barking bunny huggers’ to foist their own agenda.


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## gray1 (May 24, 2010)

It would be ok if the cats killed something useful, like grey squirrels. :lol2:

I agree there is a problem with cats and wild life but the bigger problem is cats are now so engrained in the UK as pets, that it is impossible to get rid of them. Technically they should be on something like DWA, not because they're a danger to us but because they are a danger to everything else.

I used to have a cat for 21 years, absolutely amazing pet loved it to bits, very affectionate and amazing character etc. I still miss it and life isn't the same without it, but as the previous paragraph suggests I do understand the hate levelled against them.


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

bobby said:


> :whistling2:


ooops i was typing abit to fast:bash:

kinda made my point fail


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## yugimon121 (Oct 4, 2009)

I would love to join in this debate, but as ireland doesnt even have a permit against ANY captive animals (I can keep a tiger in my backyard and feed it on chocolate if i wish), Domestic cats would be the least of my worries :lol2:


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## sykesy88 (Jan 9, 2009)

fardilis said:


> but cats are knowed for killing more wildlife than any other uk pet and i'm not evan going to count how many 'help my cats brouht in a slo worm' threads on here.
> 
> if i let a raccon walk about everywhere i'd be shoouted at becaus ethey will kill wildlife, how different is a cat?


Whats you feeling victimized for being shouted for having a raccoon outside got to do with the harm cats do to the environment? I dont have a problem with raccoons i wouldent expect your raccoon to case a animal and kill it. Some people shout at people who let there friendly dogs run round the park there just scared and dont understand.


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

sykesy88 said:


> Whats you feeling victimized for being shouted for having a raccoon outside got to do with the harm cats do to the environment? I dont have a problem with raccoons i wouldent expect your raccoon to case a animal and kill it. Some people shout at people who let there friendly dogs run round the park there just scared and dont understand.


Letting your dog run around is totally different...if you're there and it has perfect recall.....if not you're breaking the law. If it happens to get hurt by running up to dogs on the leash and trying to play then it's your fault and you're a special case. Just thought I'd throw that out there.


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

sykesy88 said:


> Whats you feeling victimized for being shouted for having a raccoon outside got to do with the harm cats do to the environment? I dont have a problem with raccoons i wouldent expect your raccoon to case a animal and kill it. Some people shout at people who let there friendly dogs run round the park there just scared and dont understand.



my point is that a racoon would do the same damage as a cat but cats are allowed to roam free and kill wildlife, but if i let a raoon roam free i'd be shouted at.


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## sykesy88 (Jan 9, 2009)

Chris Newman said:


> The RSPB arguments are totally disingenuous, for them it’s purely a political stance because so much of their income comes from cat keepers and they are terrified of upsetting them. Anyone with a modicum of intelligences knows that cats are significant predators of birds, suggesting they are not simply beggars belief.


Cats have already been here hundreds of years though if they was going to kill off any native animals i would think they would of already done so. And i agree they are a threat to the scottish wild cat but thats it in my opinion. I think our wildlife has evolved around the wildcat and the domestic cats hunting habbits aren't so different. There are probably more domestic cats then there where wild cats but we also have more rats and mice. Wild cats probably kill more pray too, domestic cats are usally killing machines between the age of 6 month and 2 years then most of them generally dont hunt much. Wild cats need to hunt all there life or they wont survive. Also it is true that it isnt a fact they are dangerous to our environment, but i am not saying its fact that cats dont harm the UK environment as nobody recorded the impact they made when they where first introduced here.


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## sykesy88 (Jan 9, 2009)

fardilis said:


> my point is that a racoon would do the same damage as a cat but cats are allowed to roam free and kill wildlife, but if i let a raoon roam free i'd be shouted at.


Would your raccoon come back if you let it out? I suppose if he or she doesnt become wild and breed it is still not a problem to our wildlife. But people would freek out because they aren't familiar with raccoons. And as they are intelligent and have human like hands they could probablycause some problems with your neighbours. But i agree domestic cats can annoy neighbours too by pooing in there gardens which is rong but its culturally accepted.


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

sykesy88 said:


> Would your raccoon come back if you let it out? I suppose if he or she doesnt become wild and breed it is still not a problem to our wildlife. But people would freek out because they aren't familiar with raccoons. And as they are intelligent and have human like hands they could probablycause some problems with your neighbours. But i agree domestic cats can annoy neighbours too by pooing in there gardens which is rong but its culturally accepted.


Accepted?

You haven't met my neighbours.....never seen anyone that handy with an air rifle in my life :whistling2:


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

sykesy88 said:


> Would your raccoon come back if you let it out? I suppose if he or she doesnt become wild and breed it is still not a problem to our wildlife. But people would freek out because they aren't familiar with raccoons. And as they are intelligent and have human like hands they could probablycause some problems with your neighbours. But i agree domestic cats can annoy neighbours too by pooing in there gardens which is rong but its culturally accepted.


a cat may not come back, a cat is just as likely to become wild and breed but yes ppeople would freak out if i let a racoon out and claim it will harm wildlife


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## sykesy88 (Jan 9, 2009)

bobby said:


> Letting your dog run around is totally different...if you're there and it has perfect recall.....if not you're breaking the law. If it happens to get hurt by running up to dogs on the leash and trying to play then it's your fault and you're a special case. Just thought I'd throw that out there.


I am rubbish at explaining i think, am saying if someones pet raccoon is running around the park it isnt a problem to me, if its not causing any harm, what the problem its like a friendly dog running around. But the people who do the shouting are the people who are scared and uneducated. Am not having a dig at dogs am just useing them as an example, i love dogs.


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

sykesy88 said:


> I am rubbish at explaining i think, am saying if someones pet raccoon is running around the park it isnt a problem to me, if its not causing any harm, what the problem its like a friendly dog running around. But the people who do the shouting are the people who are scared and uneducated. Am not having a dig at dogs am just useing them as an example, i love dogs.


It's me that has the issue, I was just throwing my 2p in : victory:

I wouldn't have an issue with that either if it didn't approach the dogs, the lads here walk ferrets off lead. It's fine if they don't approach dogs on the leash, because there's not much I could do to help a small dog, ferret or raccoon that ended up in a tangle with a greyhound.....


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## sykesy88 (Jan 9, 2009)

fardilis said:


> a cat may not come back, a cat is just as likely to become wild and breed but yes ppeople would freak out if i let a racoon out and claim it will harm wildlife


You must have not owned a cat, cats come back unless they are not properly cared for, or they may be a rare circumstance where a cat does not come back but its not in a domestic cats natural nature to not come back home, otherwise people wouldnt let them out. But i am also curious to know if a raccoon would come back home as i have never had a pet raccoon and dont 100% understand what they are like as pets to be honest i realy want a pet raccoon but know i dont have the time space or money to care for one at this moment in time.


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## RaccoonsRule (Aug 24, 2009)

Just for the record....Raccoons are scavengers/opportunists NOT hunters....To blooming lazy!!LOL


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

RaccoonsRule said:


> Just for the record....Raccoons are scavengers/opportunists NOT hunters....To blooming lazy!!LOL


What?

They will scavenge but wild raccoons will eat anything.....they mainly eat insects and plants but they're known to eat mammals too....


I know you're a bit of an authority on these guys but from everything I've read they are very capable animals.

Edit: Just googled their diet. 

From wiki: diet consists of about 40% invertebrates, 33% plant material and 27% vertebrates.[83] Since its diet consists of such a variety of different foods, Zeveloff argues the raccoon "may well be one of the world's most omnivorous animals".[84] While its diet in spring and early summer consists mostly of insects, worms, and other animals already available early in the year, it prefers fruits and nuts, such as acorns and walnuts, which emerge in late summer and autumn, and represent a rich calorie source for building up fat needed for winter.[85] They eat active or large prey, such as birds and mammals, only occasionally, since they prefer prey that is easier to catch, specifically fish and amphibians.[86] Bird nests (eggs and after hatchlings) are frequently preyed on, and small birds are often helpless to prevent the attacking raccoon.[87] When food is plentiful, raccoons can develop strong individual preferences for specific foods.

That is a serious predator^


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## sykesy88 (Jan 9, 2009)

bobby said:


> It's me that has the issue, I was just throwing my 2p in : victory:
> 
> I wouldn't have an issue with that either if it didn't approach the dogs, the lads here walk ferrets off lead. It's fine if they don't approach dogs on the leash, because there's not much I could do to help a small dog, ferret or raccoon that ended up in a tangle with a greyhound.....


I know, i agree you carnt help that its in a grayhounds instinct if one my cats escaped (they are house cats) and walked into your garden and got killed by your dog, i would be upset, but not angry with you or you dog its nature its not owt personal. Its happend to my mates cat. I would take it a little personal if my cat got shot at though, maybe it doesnt have the right to be in someones garden who doesnt want it there. But am sure you wouldnt like it if your grayhound escaped into a neighbours garden and got shot at.


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

sykesy88 said:


> I know, i agree you carnt help that its in a grayhounds instinct if one my cats escaped (they are house cats) and walked into your garden and got killed by your dog, i would be upset, but not angry with you or you dog its nature its not owt personal. Its happend to my mates cat. I would take it a little personal if my cat got shot at though, maybe it doesnt have the right to be in someones garden who doesnt want it there. But am sure you wouldnt like it if your grayhound escaped into a neighbours garden and got shot at.


Course I wouldn't. I never said it was ok.....I'd be right up for shooting the owners though :lol2:

Yeah, the lads with the ferrets know the deal with the dog, they have lurchers themselves. They see him coming and pick the ferret up or lead him out of the way. My dog's never off the lead (all my other dogs have been, but they were safer :lol2....


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

sykesy88 said:


> You must have not owned a cat, cats come back unless they are not properly cared for, or they may be a rare circumstance where a cat does not come back but its not in a domestic cats natural nature to not come back home, otherwise people wouldnt let them out. But i am also curious to know if a raccoon would come back home as i have never had a pet raccoon and dont 100% understand what they are like as pets to be honest i realy want a pet raccoon but know i dont have the time space or money to care for one at this moment in time.


Not wholey true, un-neautered cats often do not come back, they travel long distances in search of the opposite sex and get lost (or hit by cars). It is VERY Irresponsible to allow an unneautered cat to roam, and I can't beleive people do :devil:



bobby said:


> What?
> 
> They will scavenge but wild raccoons will eat anything.....they mainly eat insects and plants but they're known to eat mammals too....
> 
> ...


There would ofcourse be a diference between captive bred animals and wild ones... Not neccarrialy a good one but the fact is a lot of captive raccoons ARE going to be lazy becausethey have always had their food handed to them, they are probably much better at scavanging than they are hunting, and none of them will have ever caught live mammals before. Therefore they are probably more likely to be found in the bins!


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

em_40 said:


> Not wholey true, un-neautered cats often do not come back, they travel long distances in search of the opposite sex and get lost (or hit by cars). It is VERY Irresponsible to allow an unneautered cat to roam, and I can't beleive people do :devil:
> 
> 
> 
> There would ofcourse be a diference between captive bred animals and wild ones... Not neccarrialy a good one but the fact is a lot of captive raccoons ARE going to be lazy becausethey have always had their food handed to them, they are probably much better at scavanging than they are hunting, and none of them will have ever caught live mammals before. Therefore they are probably more likely to be found in the bins!


Yeah...fair point....


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## RaccoonsRule (Aug 24, 2009)

There would ofcourse be a diference between captive bred animals and wild ones... Not neccarrialy a good one but the fact is a lot of captive raccoons ARE going to be lazy becausethey have always had their food handed to them, they are probably much better at scavanging than they are hunting, and none of them will have ever caught live mammals before. Therefore they are probably more likely to be found in the bins![/QUOTE]


Which was the point I was trying to make but im rubbish at explaining myself which is why I rarely bother to comment on here...Im also not any Authority on Raccoons and still learn from many people who have kept or studied raccoons over many many years.

Wild raccoons will kill other smaller prey but given the choice to hunter for the food or have easy picking in a dustbin they pick the later...A comment also made by a ethnologist chap who has studied raccoon behaviour for the last 15 years in Germany and US 'Ulf Hohmann' whom my husband has spoken to stated: 

"With regard to any ecological impacts of raccoons to new habitats you may learn from continental Europa which can be summarized as follows: try to avoid an introduction, be cautious, but if an etablishment of reproducing population has happend it does not run into a catastrophy necessarily". Unlike how the media are spinning it!


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## mimozine (Feb 4, 2011)

Hi just seen this today and i want to say good on you girl for not behaving like most people arent 'good' enough to keep exotics! lets just give honest information,good and bad!Which you did,you were caring,honest and gave a full picture of life with raccoons,(which are amazing,life without my two would be awful,and im reg disabled,i can do too!)
Thanks for having courage to go for it! x


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## suity (Aug 4, 2009)

Is this on the full inside out show online anywhere? Would love to see it! Thanks.


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## theyoungaquarist (Jun 28, 2011)

Total Ban = Me out. 

I barely see English wildlife. If I can keep and care for an exotic pet properly than I shouldn't have the privilege taken away from me! And that goes for every RESPONSIBLE reptile/ exotic keeper around!


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## mimozine (Feb 4, 2011)

theyoungaquarist said:


> total ban = me out.
> 
> I barely see english wildlife. If i can keep and care for an exotic pet properly than i shouldn't have the privilege taken away from me! And that goes for every responsible reptile/ exotic keeper around!


so so right!


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

suity said:


> Is this on the full inside out show online anywhere? Would love to see it! Thanks.


BBC iPlayer - Inside Out South: 24/10/2011


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## DanAtter (Oct 3, 2011)

*Example of exotics problems*

Non-native species are considered more damaging to our ecology, agriculture etc. than pollution and climate change together.

Invasive species now cost the UK over £1.7 billion a year.

We now have 2,721 established non-native species living wild in UK of which 44% (1,197) are animals.

For examples of problems (financial and ecological) caused by exotic (animal) species that shouldnt be in this country read up on:
Grey squirrels;
Chinese water dee;
Sika deer;
Rat;
Rabbit;
Muntjac deer;
House mouse;
Mink;
Various geese and swans;
Signal crayfish;
Ring-necked parakeet;
Harlequin ladybird;
Edible dormouse;
etc............


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## fantapants (Jan 4, 2008)

Deleted


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## DanAtter (Oct 3, 2011)

*Legislation*

As well as DWAA previously refered to their is a list of species listed under Schedule 9 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act which it is illegal to keep (without a licence) or to release.

This does include a pet for sale on here recently which is a serious non-native pest species (over 0.4 million pounds per annum cost to UK economy (in 2009)), which at present is only found in small part of UK. The seller made no mention of the legality of owning keping such a pet.

Oh and cats can be important to humans in some places (eg farms) for keeping down pest species such as rats and mice in these cases it is important they can be kept. However most people who keep them dont know the problems they can cause to populations of birds including rare and migratory species, so they dont relise they may be irresponsible and they perhaps shouldnt have as pets (eg my own parents). Education is probably the way forward unfurtunatly the RSPB gets most of its money from old women with cat(s) so never say anything on the matter.


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## GlassWalker (Jun 15, 2011)

Just curious on the list earlier swans are mentioned. Which specific species? I had a quick google and couldn't find much other than the odd report of a wild black.

Further note, is there somewhere you can get the alleged cost specific species "cost"? Does that also consider any potential benefits having those species may give?


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## sykesy88 (Jan 9, 2009)

DanAtter said:


> As well as DWAA previously refered to their is a list of species listed under Schedule 9 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act which it is illegal to keep (without a licence) or to release.
> 
> This does include a pet for sale on here recently which is a serious non-native pest species (over 0.4 million pounds per annum cost to UK economy (in 2009)), which at present is only found in small part of UK. The seller made no mention of the legality of owning keping such a pet.
> 
> Oh and cats can be important to humans in some places (eg farms) for keeping down pest species such as rats and mice in these cases it is important they can be kept. However most people who keep them dont know the problems they can cause to populations of birds including rare and migratory species, so they dont relise they may be irresponsible and they perhaps shouldnt have as pets (eg my own parents). Education is probably the way forward unfurtunatly the RSPB gets most of its money from old women with cat(s) so never say anything on the matter.


I agree that cats dont help with bird populations, but if they where to blame think they would have killed off a species of bird in this country already as they have been here hundreds of years. And i do not understand why the RSPB would lie about the research they have published about cats and wildlife, most old women i know who have cats would feal guilty and send more money to the RSPB if they thought there cats where harming the enviroment. Why would they stop giving money, thats not common human nature.


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

sykesy88 said:


> I agree that cats dont help with bird populations, but if they where to blame think they would have killed off a species of bird in this country already as they have been here hundreds of years. And i do not understand why the RSPB would lie about the research they have published about cats and wildlife, most old women i know who have cats would feal guilty and send more money to the RSPB if they thought there cats where harming the enviroment. Why would they stop giving money, thats not common human nature.


Yes it is....they will disagree with the findings and withdraw support.....text book human nature....


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## sykesy88 (Jan 9, 2009)

bobby said:


> Yes it is....they will disagree with the findings and withdraw support.....text book human nature....


I suppose some people would, i never realy thought about text book human nature lol, if it was me i would feal guilty . But i agree some people would think that way.


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## DanAtter (Oct 3, 2011)

*References etc*

Someone asked for references, the main one is:
The economic cost of invasive non-native species on Great Britain, 2010.
Let me know if you want to know of more?

The invasive anatidaes?: How about the common and widespread canada goose for a start.

Cats have been proven to prove a conservation problem to birds particular in urban and semi-urban environments (there have been scientific reports). They do catch over 55 million birds a year that we know of. They most regularly catch house sparrow which is declining at an arlamingly rapid rate. They also regularly catch green finch, starling and song thrush which are also species that gardens now form a large area of there habitat and are declining.


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## stokesy (Mar 11, 2011)

I think that guy should get a hobby! I mean really what have exotic keepers done to him, it will stir up the haters for sure, daily mail readers will be up in arms Racoons taking over the country :bash:

Quick look at my local pond will show you, its not just exotics that are released and causing problems - half the ducks on the lake are mixed with karki campbell and indian runner. And some of the pink footed and canada geese are with with white farm geese.

(better not mention I saw a couple of terrapins in there last yr)


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

stokesy said:


> I think that guy should get a hobby! I mean really what have exotic keepers done to him, it will stir up the haters for sure, daily mail readers will be up in arms Racoons taking over the country :bash:
> 
> Quick look at my local pond will show you, its not just exotics that are released and causing problems - half the ducks on the lake are mixed with karki campbell and indian runner. And some of the pink footed and canada geese are with with white farm geese.
> 
> (better not mention I saw a couple of terrapins in there last yr)


indeed there's a big pond near me with an island in the middle but it's too big to reach without a canoe or something, and there's a big res living in it i've always wanted to get out but no1 can reach it.


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

fardilis said:


> indeed there's a big pond near me with an island in the middle but it's too big to reach without a canoe or something, and there's a big res living in it i've always wanted to get out but no1 can reach it.


Get a little kayak and paddle out...


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

TheDogMan said:


> Get a little kayak and paddle out...


i do kayak (as a sport) alot but still you can't get it when it's under water (murky) and if it's on the island it dives in if anyone goes near it.:devil:

it's been living there for years


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

What's a res? :lol2:


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

bobby said:


> What's a res? :lol2:


Red Eared Slider, A non-native turtle species 



fardilis said:


> i do kayak (as a sport) alot but still you can't get it when it's under water (murky) and if it's on the island it dives in if anyone goes near it.:devil:
> 
> it's been living there for years


Oh I see, sounds like you need to get into python hunters mode


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

TheDogMan said:


> Red Eared Slider, A non-native turtle species
> 
> 
> 
> Oh I see, sounds like you need to get into python hunters mode


Ahhhh, think I seen them in a shop in Paisley....


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

bobby said:


> Ahhhh, think I seen them in a shop in Paisley....


Yeah they're have been a lot of pet-releases of them and they adapt well to this environment although they do a lot of damage to the eco-systems from what I've read.


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

TheDogMan said:


> Oh I see, sounds like you need to get into python hunters mode


there's little chace to catch it as it never comes to the side and always basks in the island, there's alot of people staring at it and taking pics but it's like everyones pet turtle as it's been theer for years and everyone has there own name for it :lol2:

i would prefer to see it in captivity though


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