# doberman question?



## joemeatsix (Aug 4, 2012)

bit of a stupid question but i don't really know anything about these dogs except they're clever but..

do their ears stand up on their own like gsd's or do you have to crop them to get them to stand?(i don't have a dog never mind a doberman i'm just curious) :whistling2:


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## samurai (Sep 9, 2009)

Their ears don't naturally stand up they are cropped (cutting off part of the ear then strapping them up until they stay standing = cruel and unnecessary), which is illegal in the Uk luckily 

Some GSD have floppy ears naturally


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

I knew of someone locally (was the neighbour of a friend) who got severely beaten up for walking his cropped dog, including a stanley knife cut to the ear. Not something to take lightly.

There are still somethings that are considered unacceptable even to hardened criminals who think nothing of this level of GBH, and paedophilia and abuse to animals are amongst these things, and cropping ears is seen well within the abuse to animals category. 

Although I was told of this only when saying I wish I could do to the owners what they had had done to the dog...so you can tell which side I am on :lol2:


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## lisadew24 (Jul 31, 2010)

I don't know if the guy cropped the dog himself but he could have had an imported dog if he did it himself then he deserved what he got and more but I'm against ear cropping its cruel and unecessary if you want a dog with pointy ears buy one that naturaly does. Dante my old gsd that had one floppy ear


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## Ghostmorgan (May 31, 2013)

I thought that the standing ears are just natural..i have never heard of this thing called cropping..that is really very cruel..how can anyone do that to those speechless innocent creatures..just gross.


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## lisadew24 (Jul 31, 2010)

and they dock tail what I think is cruel as well, I wouldn't want one of my limbs cut of for fashion


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## Disillusioned (Jan 3, 2012)

My Rescue JRT had his tail cut off at one day old with a knife...imagine the pain! I know the guy who bred him and his stupid niece said it's ok because they don't have bone in their tail :bash: idiot! Cropping ears is the same, just damn cruel.


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

Ghostmorgan said:


> I thought that the standing ears are just natural..i have never heard of this thing called cropping..that is really very cruel..how can anyone do that to those speechless innocent creatures..just gross.


Cropping ears is also done to great Danes, boxers, American staffs, pitbulls, schnauzers, Beauceron, German pincher, neo mastiff, bouvier des flanders, to name a few as well as some breeds who who's ears normally naturally stand erect.
Most breeds with standing ears are natural, all UK breed standards call for natural ears as ear cropping it's illegal over here but cropped dogs can be imported and now that the quariteen process has be made easyer and dog can come in much younger many more cropped pups and dogs seem to be conning over.

To be honist I don't agree with ear cropping but I do prefur the look of Doberman with standing ears, if only they could breed one naturally like that.


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## skilzo (Mar 16, 2013)

I prefer Doberman with floppy ears makes them look better where as cropping makes them look that bit evil and its just cruel


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## akuma 天 (Apr 15, 2008)

My mum has a Doberman, she's owned him since 8 weeks and he is getting on one year old now and him and Ripley play together all the time.










Troy's tail is docked as he was born on a farm in Ireland where its still legal but he has floppy ears.

If done professionally ear cropping can be made less stressful for the dog than some of the home jobs you here about, but IMO it is still cruel and does the dog no favours as if there ears where required to be erect at all times, they would be naturally.

As puppies Dobermans are chewers and biters, my mums arms and legs were shredded for the first few months, and everything and anything that could be chewed or dug up was. It drove them nearly insane for a while.

At around 6 months of age and with the correct training and a strong hand they will calm done and settle into a more balanced dog. As Troy is approaching one year he is beginning to exhibit full Doberman traits such as rarely straying far from my mums side, and being very house and garden defensive in terms of vocal barking, although he is not aggressive at all.


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## joemeatsix (Aug 4, 2012)

thanks everyone 

does anyone keep WHITE dobermans? i prefer them to the black/tan dobes :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## ljb107 (Nov 16, 2008)

I do think it's silly getting ears cropped just for a breed standard (done by a vet) and of course it's cruel if it's a diy job, but it would also reduce ear problems some breeds get when they have floppy ears if you think about it.

Also i think docking should only be done for health purposes. For example a dog that constantly splits its tail open from wagging it so much - resulting in blood everywhere!


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

ljb107 said:


> I do think it's silly getting ears cropped just for a breed standard (done by a vet) and of course it's cruel if it's a diy job, but it would also reduce ear problems some breeds get when they have floppy ears if you think about it.
> 
> Also i think docking should only be done for health purposes. For example a dog that constantly splits its tail open from wagging it so much - resulting in blood everywhere!


This could affect very heavy eared dogs, but the dobe ears, and in fact all breeds where ear cropping is common in lesser countries, are so small plenty of air can get in anyway...this would not be a reason. In fact my retriever has heavier ears than any of those breeds and her ears are always flapping back or bouncing all over the place just from the action of walking and running, no issues with air flow at all!!

People often spout the nonsense about it is to improve their hearing for guarding, but the ability to pinpoint a sound is based largely on the ability to rotate the ears slightly to narrow in on it...an ability wholey lost following ear cropping.

The stuff about tail splitting is largely a reason made up after the fact as an excuse for tail docking rather than the reason for it. There was a large scale study done I believe in Denmark after they completely banned docking, to measure the effects. It found that over the period of the study the only dog from a traditionally docked breed that was treated (ie needed a medical tail docking) for tail splitting was a spaniel or something, that was *already* docked and had split the stump. All other dogs that needed their tails docked for a medical reasons were of breeds not normally docked. Here tail splitting is most common in Greyhounds not gundogs or terriers neither docked or undocked.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

joemeatsix said:


> thanks everyone
> 
> does anyone keep WHITE dobermans? i prefer them to the black/tan dobes :Na_Na_Na_Na:


Unfortunately the white comes with many problems often associated with white dogs of any breed. I would imagine the rates of deafness would be high in white dobes, which is not an issue in itself other than for the owner in trying to train, especially recall. But for a guarding breed would likely make a very anxious dog, most guarding breeds wish to know exactly where you, their object to protect with their lives, is at all times. Without hearing to wake them when you move then that would be one very stressed dog I could foresee.

The main problem would be protecting the dog from cancers, ie having to regularly sun cream them, and from distress from the sun piercing the unprotected eyes. Nothing cool looking about a self respecting dog having to wear shaded googles...if only because other dogs would not be socialised to see a dog with googles, and may well see them a large staring eyes and react aggressively...which in turn could very very quickly turn your dog defensive and then aggressive.

In short that would be a fairly hard job for you and greatly disadvantaged life for your dog, just for the aesthetics of preferring the colour. 

Have you looked at the ones for sale on Pets4Homes, likely not the way you would want to find a greatn breeder but it does help you know what is available in the country. The fawn ones are pretty and unusual!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

PPVallhunds said:


> Cropping ears is also done to great Danes, boxers, American staffs, pitbulls, schnauzers, Beauceron, German pincher, neo mastiff, bouvier des flanders, to name a few as well as some breeds who who's ears normally naturally stand erect.
> Most breeds with standing ears are natural, all UK breed standards call for natural ears as ear cropping it's illegal over here but cropped dogs can be imported and now that the quariteen process has be made easyer and dog can come in much younger many more cropped pups and dogs seem to be conning over.
> 
> To be honist I don't agree with ear cropping but I do prefur the look of Doberman with standing ears, if only they could breed one naturally like that.


Even Boston Terriers are cropped in America! Why? Their ears are natural upstanding! :bash:


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## ljb107 (Nov 16, 2008)

Kare said:


> This could affect very heavy eared dogs, but the dobe ears, and in fact all breeds where ear cropping is common in lesser countries, are so small plenty of air can get in anyway...this would not be a reason. In fact my retriever has heavier ears than any of those breeds and her ears are always flapping back or bouncing all over the place just from the action of walking and running, no issues with air flow at all!!
> 
> People often spout the nonsense about it is to improve their hearing for guarding, but the ability to pinpoint a sound is based largely on the ability to rotate the ears slightly to narrow in on it...an ability wholey lost following ear cropping.
> 
> The stuff about tail splitting is largely a reason made up after the fact as an excuse for tail docking rather than the reason for it. There was a large scale study done I believe in Denmark after they completely banned docking, to measure the effects. It found that over the period of the study the only dog from a traditionally docked breed that was treated (ie needed a medical tail docking) for tail splitting was a spaniel or something, that was *already* docked and had split the stump. All other dogs that needed their tails docked for a medical reasons were of breeds not normally docked. Here tail splitting is most common in Greyhounds not gundogs or terriers neither docked or undocked.


Totally agree with everything you said about the ears, i just used that point as one, maybe the only pro to doing it, but not a big enough one to make it ok.

The breeds we mostly have to dock in work are mainly working breeds that used to get their tails docked. We've had to do quite a few boxers now as well. All of these cases have been down to them wagging their tails alot and splitting the ends.

Lloyd


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## ChelsNLuke (Jun 23, 2012)

Our great dane wasn't imported so has floppy ears I think great danes look so much better without sticking their ears up it's stupid cruel and unnecessary.
-Chels


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> Even Boston Terriers are cropped in America! Why? Their ears are natural upstanding! :bash:


Daft isn't it, I can only imagine they do it either to get a diffrent ear shape or because they have bred many with ears that don't properly stand so rather than fixing the fault threw breeding just opt for a quick fix instead.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

cropped and docked is the standard here in the states... mine never had a problem...


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> cropped and docked is the standard here in the states... mine never had a problem...


Thankfully both cruel practices are illegal over here, though working dogs can be legally docked by a vet


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## lisadew24 (Jul 31, 2010)

I don't get why a working spaniel gets it tail docked but working labs and retrievers don't they nearly do the same job, I still think its fashion


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## ljb107 (Nov 16, 2008)

lisadew24 said:


> I don't get why a working spaniel gets it tail docked but working labs and retrievers don't they nearly do the same job, I still think its fashion


Think about water...


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## 1b3 (Aug 17, 2011)

*Old fashioned*

In the old days before firearms and cars were more widely used these dogs would have been fierce by nature and the cropped look was a statement. "This dog's here for a definite reason."
Today it's not actually necessary as a rule. We don't need bodyguards the way Louis Dobermann did as a tax collector.
With the invention of mobile phones, street lighting, cameras, internet, motor vehicles and a modern police system these dogs are less necessary.
It might even seem old fashioned if we took a step back. After all we no longer see Mastiffs walking about with giant spiked collars... or DO WE?


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

lisadew24 said:


> I don't get why a working spaniel gets it tail docked but working labs and retrievers don't they nearly do the same job, I still think its fashion


From what ive read the reson is
Labs were bred as water dogs, water dogs go into the water and flush and/or retrieve game, so the tail helps get about in the water.
spaniels were bred to flush out game to be shot. so the spaniels are more at risk of hurting there tails as they run about in the undergrowth and bushes where as Retrievers were bred to go and get the game that had been shoot so no need to race about like the spaniels.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> Thankfully both cruel practices are illegal over here, though working dogs can be legally docked by a vet


 vets don't crop and dock dogs while they're awake... a bit of cosmetic surgery is cruel?... never realized that...

i hope that you never break your nose... since cosmetic surgery is illegal there...:whistling2:
:lol2::lol2:


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## Melissa88 (Oct 28, 2009)

HABU said:


> vets don't crop and dock dogs while they're awake... a bit of cosmetic surgery is cruel?... never realized that...
> 
> i hope that you never break your nose... since cosmetirc surgery is illegal there...:whistling2:
> :lol2::lol2:


I did a vet tech course years ago and there were a couple of Doberman puppies that woke up from cropping surgery while I was there. Even with pain killers the pups woke up screaming in agony. There are so many nerves there. It was far worse than the neuters, docking, and other procedures I saw pets wake up from and that noise still haunts me when I think of it. I would never under any circumstances crop any dogs of mine or purchase a puppy from a breeder who would.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

M2788 said:


> I did a vet tech course years ago and there were a couple of puppies that woke up from cropping surgery while I was there. Even with pain killers the pups woke up screaming in agony. There are so many nerves there. It was far worse than the neuters, docking, and other procedures I saw pets wake up from and that noise still haunts me when I think of it. I would never under any circumstances crop any dogs of mine or purchase a puppy from a breeder who would.


my dobie never even whimpered... there was never any indication of stress... let alone pain...

after a day of rest, he was out playing and having a good time... not exactly agony...

maybe those pups were just frightened because they were in a strange place and by themselves... ?

many pups cry and whine when they are left alone... they can sound terrible... as if someone is torturing them... but it's just separation anxiety...


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## Melissa88 (Oct 28, 2009)

HABU said:


> my dobie never even whimpered... there was never any indication of stress... let alone pain...
> 
> after a day of rest, he was out playing and having a good time... not exactly agony...
> 
> ...


I'd believe it if it was only one, but not nearly every pup.Typically the puppies had settled down by the time the owner's picked them up, but if they had seen their pups as they were waking up I think it would have made them sick at what they had done for no medical reason. There is a good reason the American Veterinary Medical Association opposes it.


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## trogdorable (Feb 4, 2011)

HABU said:


> vets don't crop and dock dogs while they're awake... a bit of cosmetic surgery is cruel?... never realized that...
> 
> i hope that you never break your nose... since cosmetic surgery is illegal there...:whistling2:
> :lol2::lol2:


What a ridiculous comparison. a human can choose to mutilate themselves cosmetically if they wish, and will understand why they are in pain while recovering.
A dog can not choose if it wants to be mutilated for fashion, and will not understand why its in pain. Causing unnecessary pain is classed as cruelty over here, and darn right.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

M2788 said:


> I'd believe it if it was only one, but not nearly every pup.Typically the puppies had settled down by the time the owner's picked them up, but if they had seen their pups as they were waking up I think it would have made them sick at what they had done for no medical reason. There is a good reason the American Veterinary Medical Association opposes it.


i guess the akc is a rouge organization then...

Westminster Dog Show 2012: Best of the Big Dogs from the Great Pyrenees to Mastiffs [PHOTOS] - International Business Times

Doberman Pinscher Page


to each his own...


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## Melissa88 (Oct 28, 2009)

HABU said:


> i guess the akc is a rouge organization then...
> 
> Westminster Dog Show 2012: Best of the Big Dogs from the Great Pyrenees to Mastiffs [PHOTOS] - International Business Times
> 
> ...


Yep! AKC wasn't overly thrilled with the AVMA's decision to oppose cropping and docking from what I've read, but then again they aren't exactly known for making breed health a priority over looks as sad as it is. I am really hoping someday that more Kennel clubs will start putting health and function above appearance but that doesn't seem to be changing much anytime soon.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

trogdorable said:


> What a ridiculous comparison. a human can choose to mutilate themselves cosmetically if they wish, and will understand why they are in pain while recovering.
> A dog can not choose if it wants to be mutilated for fashion, and will not understand why its in pain. Causing unnecessary pain is classed as cruelty over here, and darn right.



... but inbreeding dogs to look a certain way isn't cruel then?


Dogs That Changed the World - Selective Breeding Problems - Genetics | Nature | PBS


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## kato (May 12, 2007)

joemeatsix said:


> thanks everyone
> 
> does anyone keep WHITE dobermans? i prefer them to the black/tan dobes :Na_Na_Na_Na:


I had a Brown Doberman for fifteen years called Dobbin. His ears and tail was left natural.

Two of the same litter had there tails and ears done and compared to Dobbin they're balance was atrocious.

Out of the four born in the same litter the two that had their ears and tails done lived to nine and ten years old. Dobbin and the other one who was left naturally both lived to fifteen and with no health issues at all through the time that they were alive, the other two both had health issues mainly joint and hip related. I put this down to balance. Does seem rather coincidental though.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> i guess the akc is a rouge organization then...
> 
> Westminster Dog Show 2012: Best of the Big Dogs from the Great Pyrenees to Mastiffs [PHOTOS] - International Business Times
> 
> ...


Here, our Kennel Club will not allow dogs that had their tails docked on or after the 6th April 2007 to be exhibited at KC shows! Maybe the AKC needs to catch up!


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## SUPER HANS (Jun 18, 2011)

joemeatsix said:


> bit of a stupid question but i don't really know anything about these dogs except they're clever but..
> 
> do their ears stand up on their own like gsd's or do you have to crop them to get them to stand?(i don't have a dog never mind a doberman i'm just curious) :whistling2:


I wouldn't recommend it as a first dog, very high maintainence and need a lot of excercise and mental stimulation otherwise they get bored and make their own fun, usually in a destructive way lol and they will bark, a lot, very vocal dog.

It is basically like having a child, if you can deal with that, then get one. They are a very rewarding dog to own, mines just turned 7 and he's an awesome dog.

Just be prepared for a lot of discrimination aswell.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> Here, our Kennel Club will not allow dogs that had their tails docked on or after the 6th April 2007 to be exhibited at KC shows! Maybe the AKC needs to catch up!


Is it just KC shows? I thought it was a DEFRA law and therefore covers ALL shows, even Fun dog shows?

There was a dog show run by a rescue here and there was discussion about whether, because they charged an entrance fee for the owners and public to enter, that they too broke the law allowing a docked dog to enter prettiest bitch or handsomest male. 

The discussion fizzled out with no real answer, but generally it was thought it could likely enter waggiest tail, but not a appearance based event. This was a one off show though, never been anywhere else where you paid to enter the grounds as well as the class because most are held in open parks not someones own land so they cannot charge people to be there.


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

Kare said:


> Is it just KC shows? I thought it was a DEFRA law and therefore covers ALL shows, even Fun dog shows?
> 
> There was a dog show run by a rescue here and there was discussion about whether, because they charged an entrance fee for the owners and public to enter, that they too broke the law allowing a docked dog to enter prettiest bitch or handsomest male.
> 
> The discussion fizzled out with no real answer, but generally it was thought it could likely enter waggiest tail, but not a appearance based event. This was a one off show though, never been anywhere else where you paid to enter the grounds as well as the class because most are held in open parks not someones own land so they cannot charge people to be there.


according the law (animal welfair act) in England and wales if the dog was docked after the ban and the show charges the public an entry fee to attend they have broken the law, it doesn't matter if its a kc show, fun show or any other show, only shows that are to show a dogs working ability are allowed to entre.
it only applys to show where the public pay to come in, not owners pay to enter the dog, some champ and open shows have dropped there public entry fee to allow legally docked dogs to entre, so if the public had to pay to attend the fun show the law is broken, but if the public were allowed to attend for free then its fine.

"A person commits an offence if—
(a)he shows a dog at an event to which members of the public are admitted on payment of a fee,
(b)the dog's tail has been wholly or partly removed (in England and Wales or elsewhere), and
(c)removal took place on or after the commencement day.
Where a dog is shown only for the purpose of demonstrating its working ability, subsection (9) does not apply if the dog is a subsection (3) dog"
Animal Welfare Act 2006
not sure what the law is in Scotland


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## TractorTotty (Jun 3, 2013)

lisadew24 said:


> and they dock tail what I think is cruel as well, I wouldn't want one of my limbs cut of for fashion


Tails aren't necessarily docked for fashion, all of our working spaniels are docked (legally) for that one reason ~ they are workers. 

In England, any spaniel, terrier, hunt point retrieve breed or their crosses can be docked (as long as the necessary evidence indicating that they are likely to work is produced). Owners and keepers wishing to have a working dog’s tail docked must ensure that this is undertaken in accordance with the law. The docked dog will also have to be micro-chipped before it is 3 months of age. Vets are the only persons who are allowed to decide that a dog may have its tail docked.

*Just a quote from BASC;
"Evidence required in the support of legal tail docking..

The puppy must be presented with the dam, and a statement provided by the owner (or the owner’s representative) that the dog is intended to work in one of the specified areas below. Additional evidence related to the particular type of work the dog will perform is also required. It is crucial that members take all available paperwork with them when they go to the vet, including printouts of the document below together with the proofs of working status etc.

(a) law enforcement,
(b) activities of Her Majesty’s armed forces,
(c) emergency rescue,
(d) lawful pest control, or
(e) the lawful shooting of animals

Additional evidence

A current shotgun or firearm certificate issued to the owner of the dog, or to the agent or employee of the owner most likely to be using the dog for work in connection with the lawful shooting of animals OR

A letter from a gamekeeper, a land occupier (or his agent), a person with shooting rights, a shoot organiser, a club official, or a person engaged in lawful pest control, stating that the breeder of the dog whose tail is to be docked is known to him and that dogs bred by that breeder have been used (as the case may be) on his land, or in his shoot, or for pest control."*

Tails are normally docked at 2 to 5 days of age without anaesthetic being used. When carried out correctly, the procedure causes no more than momentary discomfort since the puppy does not have a fully developed nervous system. When the pup is placed back with its littermates, it quickly falls asleep or starts feeding from the bitch. This is in contrast to a puppy in pain that would exhibit continuous crying, restlessness, crawl around in pointless circles and fail to suckle. The older the animal, the larger the tail, and therefore the more traumatic the procedure becomes. I have seen this done numerous times, it is just like clipping piglets tails off at day or two old, no squealing or anything from them, you would now about it if the animal is in pain.

As an avid shooter and hunter myself (although hunting doesnt really come into this topic), I have seen a few undocked spaniels either flushing or picking up that have gotten their tails caught in various cover etc and been caused injury, I even saw one springer's tail rip open as it was caught and it was so damaged he ended up having it amputated anyway.
Many working terriers (ratters etc) are also docked, one of the reasons for this is because it is easier to grab the dog by the tail and pull it out of say a fox hole or warren without damaging it, if you look at a dog with a 'working dock' it is about the same length as a clenched fist. The main reason for terriers being docked though is for their own safety, especially when ratting, if tails are left long they are more likely to get bitten and rats can do alot of damage! 
Labs do not need docking as they are bred for retrieving game, and if they are used by beaters to flush they cannot get caught as they do not have excess long hair on them.


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## trogdorable (Feb 4, 2011)

HABU said:


> ... but inbreeding dogs to look a certain way isn't cruel then?
> 
> 
> Dogs That Changed the World - Selective Breeding Problems - Genetics | Nature | PBS


did i say it wasn't? slightly irrelevant when the discussion is mutilation for fashion but ok, no i absolutely think breeding disabled, over-wrinkly and brachycephalic dogs is cruel, whats your point?


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## 1b3 (Aug 17, 2011)

SUPER HANS said:


> I wouldn't recommend it as a first dog, very high maintainence and need a lot of excercise and mental stimulation otherwise they get bored and make their own fun, usually in a destructive way lol and they will bark, a lot, very vocal dog.
> 
> It is basically like having a child, if you can deal with that, then get one. They are a very rewarding dog to own, mines just turned 7 and he's an awesome dog.
> 
> Just be prepared for a lot of discrimination aswell.


 It's sad that having a type of dog can cause offence to less educated people. My neighbour had one years ago. Wonderful dog. Those thinking it's a German dog needn't really as it was the U.S marine corps that are really responsible for it's history from ww1 on. It's just that they didn't change the look.


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## Greenway (Oct 16, 2011)

I fully oppose ear shaping. It serves no medical purpose. It's abhorrent. It has no benificial, merely detrimental value to the dog. In ALL cases.

I would have to say- coming from a farming/hunting community, that the docking of working Spaniel's tails at a very young age saves a lot of pain, heartache and death. No it didn't happen that way in the dark ages- the spaniels just died. I don't know whether it's specific to Springers though. I've never seen another dog that I would reckon 'needed' a docked tail. 

Before the ban I had Giant Schnauzer with a docked tail. For the life of me I can't think why, But it was the done thing in the late 80's when we bought her (my family..I was about 8..)
Had no influence on that, neither did my parents. They were docked by a vet at a week old. Would never agree to it now.


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