# Red or yellow ackie



## carl1981 (Jul 1, 2016)

Hi could anybody confirm if my ackie is a yellow or a red? I've just bought it and I was told it was a red but wanted to make sure before I buy some other ackies to put with it as I don't want to cross breed them.
I cant find anywhere which tells you the difference besides color and adult size. 









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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

carl1981 said:


> Hi could anybody confirm if my ackie is a yellow or a red? I've just bought it and I was told it was a red but wanted to make sure before I buy some other ackies to put with it as I don't want to cross breed them.
> I cant find anywhere which tells you the difference besides color and adult size.


It's a V. acanthurus, not a specific subspecies. Bar a few dedicated breeders with a few pure lines pretty much everything is a cross. These tend to go for a good deal more than 'normal' ackies. Anyway 

I'm not sure where you bought it from but I can see some (old) injuries and scarring on the animal. A healthy young animal should never really sit still when held like that. Especially one that is recently purchased. 

The difference between reds and yellows aren't always as clear as most sites make it out to be. There are 'yellow' ackies that grow larger then red's or are red coloured. It's a combination of patterns, build, tail length and spikes which are different for each locale in the wild.


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## carl1981 (Jul 1, 2016)

Cheers for the reply creed. The scarring you said are you referring to the 2 little white marks on its back? I've not noticed any scarring and since your reply have been looking at the photos but not sure where you are referring to. 
As with the species then to get some more to make up a trio I would be alright just getting any v.acanthurus and just try to focus on getting some nicely colored ones. Only I wanted to try and get some as soon as possible while this one is still young.
I did think that this ackie seemed quite laid back and not as lively as expected but I thought it was just because it was still young as it is feeding and moving around the vivarium OK and does seem to be getting more and more active. I've had it 3 days now so just put it down to age and still settling in.
Any idea on age ? I was told it was around 4-5 month old when I bought it but I thought it looked a little small for that sort of age or does that sound about right for this sort of size?
Tip of head to Base of tail is around 4"
.
I bought it from a shop in sheffield UK. They said the had brought it back from hamm and that the parents was really red but didn't have any pics of the parents. 
Cheers again for the reply and sorry for the barrage of questions lol

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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

From the photo, it looks like there is scarring on the left flank between front and rear legs, starting near to the spine then splitting into a fork running down to the belly.


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## carl1981 (Jul 1, 2016)

Ahh yes I see what you mean now it's obvious now you point it out. I've just had it out to have a look and it's not easy to see in person as she is so small but obvious on the photos. Is it common for babies to fight to cause an injury like this or is it probable that it was caused by something else?

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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

Two toes on the right front foot are also damaged.

Not really, hatchlings generally leave each other alone. They can injure or kill each other, but it's not common among communial reared hatchlings. Adults are best kept alone or in pairs. They are solitairy animals who need a lot of space. So I don't advice keeping this species a trio.

It's impossible to tell the age. The growth rate is highly depended on the quality of care the animal has recieved. In proper conditions an animal can reach breeding lenght in 6 months.


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## Debbie1962 (Dec 5, 2008)

I breed and raise hatchlings and have never witnessed any serious fighting. They will will sleep close together to keep warm at night but generally they will just keep to themselves. I would be concerned if you have paid a higher price for this 'red' and with the scars that it has. I certainly could not handle my hatchlings like that. In fact one was not long out of the egg when it launched at my arm and would not let go lol.


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## carl1981 (Jul 1, 2016)

It does not look like she has had a good start in life then. I should have really given her a better look over but I just fell in love with her so snaped her up when I saw her as I had just built a new viv as I'd been looking at ackies for a while then this one popped up just as I'd finished building the vivarium. 
Here is the vivarium that I'm housing her in. 









I keep calling her a her which is a bit optimistic but hate calling her a it. ***128522;

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## carl1981 (Jul 1, 2016)

Not sure where the numbers appeared from above? Strange.

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## carl1981 (Jul 1, 2016)

Cheers for the info Debbie. I paid £160 for her. Today she has been darting around her viv and chasing her food like I would have expected. I must admit the first couple of days I was a bit concerned that she did not seem to be exploring her environment very much and would only go after food which was very close to her but today she has been charging around everywhere and was not easy to get out and hold to look at her scars.

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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Hi, here`s an excellent careguide, authored by a very experienced and knowledgeable keeper here in the U.K, like other experienced and knowledgeable keepers he has found it IS possible to keep a small group together, including trios (one male, two females for life), the best chance of succeeding is to obviously to raise them that way from as early as possible which you`ve indicated you`d like to do (good luck).
Ackie Care Guide - CaptiveBred Reptile Forums, Reptile Classified, Forum 
There are a number of experienced keepers and breeders in America and Australia that also use the above method with good success.
I would think that if the monitor is already 4 or 5 months old it could be sexually mature (that can occur when the animal is around 1/2 to 2/3rds adult length).


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## Debbie1962 (Dec 5, 2008)

If it is not a red then you have been overcharged for it. Just because an animal has scars etc. does not mean you should not buy them just that the price should reflect this. Shops seem to get away with it though. Pleased to hear she/he seems to be doing well now though.


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## carl1981 (Jul 1, 2016)

Cheers for all the help. I know a few people who have kept trios with no problems for years and I used to have a trio about 17 - 18 years ago and didn't have any issues . I just raised them together like you suggested. I've just not kept reptiles for around 10 years so am a little rusty . I've done quite a lot of reading though so am getting back into the swing of things. Have any of you tried sexing the ackies using the candling method by shining a bright touch through the Base of the tail? If so have you had accurate results?

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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

carl1981 said:


> Cheers for all the help. I know a few people who have kept trios with no problems for years and I used to have a trio about 17 - 18 years ago and didn't have any issues . I just raised them together like you suggested. I've just not kept reptiles for around 10 years so am a little rusty . I've done quite a lot of reading though so am getting back into the swing of things. Have any of you tried sexing the ackies using the candling method by shining a bright touch through the Base of the tail? If so have you had accurate results?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk



Hi, I haven`t tried the transillumination technique with V. acanthurus but according to Dr. Danny Brown who authored an article on it it can be very successful even with hatchlings, obviously the keeper needs to know what he/she is looking at. If you haven`t read the whole article I`ll be happy to put a link up.
What type and wattage of heat/lighting are you using, also, what are the ambient and surface temps plus the humidity range?


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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

murrindindi said:


> Hi, I haven`t tried the transillumination technique with V. acanthurus but according to Dr. Danny Brown who authored an article on it it can be very successful even with hatchlings, obviously the keeper needs to know what he/she is looking at. If you haven`t read the whole article I`ll be happy to put a link up.
> What type and wattage of heat/lighting are you using, also, what are the ambient and surface temps plus the humidity range?


+1



carl1981 said:


> Cheers for all the help. I know a few people who have kept trios with no problems for years and I used to have a trio about 17 - 18 years ago and didn't have any issues . I just raised them together like you suggested.


I don't think a solitary animal should be kept in small groups. It only servers the keeper by cramming as many animals in as little box as possible. It doesn't reflect this animals lifestyle and extra risks (injury and dominance issues) without any benefits. That's why I advise keeping this animal in pairs (notable safer to breed) or alone. 



carl1981 said:


> Have any of you tried sexing the ackies using the candling method by shining a bright touch through the Base of the tail? If so have you had accurate results


Works good, especially with a good LED torch and a dark room. A candling light for (chicken) eggs works for me. The article: http://varanidae.org/Vol3_No1_Brown.pdf


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Creed said:


> I don't think a solitary animal should be kept in small groups. It only servers the keeper by cramming as many animals in as little box as possible. It doesn't reflect this animals lifestyle and extra risks (injury and dominance issues) without any benefits. That's why I advise keeping this animal in pairs (notable safer to breed) or alone.


Hi Creed, at the end of the day it doesn`t matter what you "think" because there are keepers and breeders across the world that have successfully housed more than one monitor (including trios) in the same enclosure with great SUCCESS for many years/generations (including Varanus acanthurus). If you don`t wish to seek contact with them in order to get more information that`s your choice, but if that`s the case please stop advising others against it simply because you`ve read (as most of us have) that these are solitary animals in the wild. This isn`t the wild it`s captivity, and in the main TOTALLY different. 
I DO understand and agree with your concerns about "cramming" animals into very small spaces, I`m very much against it, I ALWAYS recommend using the largest possible enclosure even for a single varanid of any species (any age/size including hatchlings) from the beginning.


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## Fizz (Jan 18, 2014)

I think creed just means to point out that in the wild they wouldnt choose to live in a group which is a fair statement. Personally I only have one ackie and I would never have had more than one as I dont have a desire to breed. If I were to breed however I would chose a pair rather than tro for similar reasons. the mroe animals you have together the higher your chance of having issues develop from cohabiting. Thats not to say that they cant live in a group sucessfully as you pointed out this is done often without issues, but I would prefer to limit my chance of problems occuring especially with an anima that perhas prefers to be alone.

To the question at hand I used the "candleing" method when riley was small and I would say it was successful to a degree. I did it a few times over the course of a month or so and the first time I thought definitely a boy then the next time there was nothing to see. and so I went back and forth... it turned out he was a boy after all when he stuck all his bits out for me to see on our first xmas day, lol.

I will point out that I was using far from perfect equipment for the purpose so chances are better with a stonger light or a darker room perhaps 

I agree information on your set up will be useful if you would like to use the forsum as a sounding board to heck things are ok


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## carl1981 (Jul 1, 2016)

Hi my setup is as follows. I've built a 5ft x 5ft viv which is 2ft deep ( front to back) I wish I had gone 3ft deep now but will probably do that later down the line.
As equipment goes I've got a 160w uvb / basking light at the left of the tank and a 60w normal basking light to try to make the basking area a little larger rather than come from one Light source. I've got a led energy saver at the over end of the viv just to brighten up the viv but it gives no notable heat off. Under the basking spot it ranges from 32 - 38 degrees c .
I have also got a 150w ceramic heater next to the basking lights which is connected to my controller so it is set to keep the basking spot at 37c during the day and then Temps drop to 25c during the night at the warm end of the vivarium. 
Humidity wise I've got the controller set to keep it at 60% and have got a mister connected so it will spray when humidity falls to 50%.
I know the mister is a bit over kill but I've got a couple of misting systems lying around anyway so thought I'd throw one in. It is currently spraying around once every couple of days to keep the above levels and sprays for about 30 seconds or something. 
I have then got 12" deep soil / sand mix in one half of tank and other half is only around 1-2" .

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## carl1981 (Jul 1, 2016)

I've tried the transillumination using the led flash/ tourch on my phone and then tried to take some pics as I've got a good macro lense on my dslr but I was struggling to take the picture while holding her in place. I tried setting the camera up on a tripod and setting it up for some timed shots but didn't work as planned***128533;
She looked like a female to me but I'm going to get a friend to take the pictures for me while I hold her so I can have a good look at the pics.

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## carl1981 (Jul 1, 2016)

The ambient temp at the cooler side of the viv is around 25-26 at the bottom half and is around 28-30 at the top region of the cooler side. I've ordered a couple more air vents as I thought it would be better a one or two degrees lower so was going to put a few more vents in.

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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

murrindindi said:


> Hi Creed, at the end of the day it doesn`t matter what you "think" because there are keepers and breeders across the world that have successfully housed more than one monitor (including trios) in the same enclosure with great SUCCESS for many years/generations (including Varanus acanthurus). If you don`t wish to seek contact with them in order to get more information that`s your choice, but if that`s the case please stop advising others against it simply because you`ve read (as most of us have) that these are solitary animals in the wild. This isn`t the wild it`s captivity, and in the main TOTALLY different.


Well I tend to think we should keep wild animals in as close to wild conditions as possible. I understand we have to make certain concessions, but not keeping solitary animals in groups seems rather basic to me. 

And again, your assuming that I've not talked to other keepers just because I don't share your opinion. I could suggest you expand your circle a bit and learn German (or French or Dutch). But I think that would be belittling and insulting to suggest someone should 'educated' themselves without providing any arguments myself. 



murrindindi said:


> I DO understand and agree with your concerns about "cramming" animals into very small spaces, I`m very much against it, I ALWAYS recommend using the largest possible enclosure even for a single varanid of any species (any age/size including hatchlings) from the beginning.


Then why are you advising an husbandry practice that directly contradicts to what you***8217;re saying here?


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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

carl1981 said:


> Hi my setup is as follows. I've built a 5ft x 5ft viv which is 2ft deep ( front to back) I wish I had gone 3ft deep now but will probably do that later down the line.
> As equipment goes I've got a 160w uvb / basking light at the left of the tank and a 60w normal basking light to try to make the basking area a little larger rather than come from one Light source. I've got a led energy saver at the over end of the viv just to brighten up the viv but it gives no notable heat off. Under the basking spot it ranges from 32 - 38 degrees c .
> I have also got a 150w ceramic heater next to the basking lights which is connected to my controller so it is set to keep the basking spot at 37c during the day and then Temps drop to 25c during the night at the warm end of the vivarium.
> Humidity wise I've got the controller set to keep it at 60% and have got a mister connected so it will spray when humidity falls to 50%.
> ...


I'd double the basking spot temperature. They do much better with an basking spot around 60/70 degrees Celsius. So long as humidity is high and they've deep substrate to dig down into.

Upgrading to 3 feet of depth would be much better. 5x2 (LxD) is too small for even a single animal. An adult is likely to grow over two feet long and it's a rather basic requirement that an animal is able to completely stretch itself.


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

carl1981 said:


> Hi my setup is as follows. I've built a 5ft x 5ft viv which is 2ft deep ( front to back) I wish I had gone 3ft deep now but will probably do that later down the line.
> As equipment goes I've got a 160w uvb / basking light at the left of the tank and a 60w normal basking light to try to make the basking area a little larger rather than come from one Light source. I've got a led energy saver at the over end of the viv just to brighten up the viv but it gives no notable heat off. Under the basking spot it ranges from 32 - 38 degrees c .
> I have also got a 150w ceramic heater next to the basking lights which is connected to my controller so it is set to keep the basking spot at 37c during the day and then Temps drop to 25c during the night at the warm end of the vivarium.
> Humidity wise I've got the controller set to keep it at 60% and have got a mister connected so it will spray when humidity falls to 50%.
> ...


Hi, I think there are some changes to be made regarding the heat/lighting which also include the temps and humidity. First I`d like to know what type of hygrometer/thermometer you`re using to get those figures?
You basically need to know just two temps on/above ground during the day ("activity time"); the lowest ambient (air) @ approx. 24c, then the SURFACE temp of the basking object @ between approx. 50 to 65c, no other temp matters too much. The nighttime temps should not be lower than approx. 24c in the coolest parts (including the substrate).
Humidity needs to range between approx. 50 to 70%+, the lower figure will be around the basking site, the higher in the hides/burrows (in fact in the latter in may even be slightly higher).
The high wattage bulbs are undoubtably drying out the air to a large extent, much more efficient are the relatively low wattage halogens as "basking bulbs", either par 30 or par 38 (par just refers to the bulb face diameter), MUST be flood beam not spot. 
I recommend using 2 or 3, perhaps 50w each, then either raise lower bulbs/basking object to adjust the surface temp. I personally do not use thermostats/timers but it`s perfectly acceptable to do that if you choose.
I usually buy them either on eBay or from one of the lighting manufacturers such as "TLC Direct", normally they cost between £3 to £6 depending on brand and wattage. 
I`ll show a pic of my male Asian water monitor`s basking areas to give you an idea of what`s needed (I have to use more bulbs because of his size)...


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Creed said:


> Well I tend to think we should keep wild animals in as close to wild conditions as possible. I understand we have to make certain concessions, but not keeping solitary animals in groups seems rather basic to me.
> 
> And again, your assuming that I've not talked to other keepers just because I don't share your opinion. I could suggest you expand your circle a bit and learn German (or French or Dutch). But I think that would be belittling and insulting to suggest someone should 'educated' themselves without providing any arguments myself.
> 
> ...



I think we may be misunderstanding each other to a degree, I`m NOT nor ever have suggested people should keep them in pairs/other for "companionship", only for BREEDING purposes. Having said that, by far the most effective method is to raise them together from hatchling if possible.
As far as me contradicting what I`ve said I`m certainly not, can you quote any post of mine where I`ve suggested a particular enclosure size if someone wants to keep multiple monitors in one enclosure? 
You seem to think that "multiple" means a relatively large number, it means no such thing other than more than 1 (one). I would never suggest trying to keep more than 3 together and then usually under particular circumstances (there ARE pygmy species that will cohabit quite successfully). 
As with almost ALL animals there`s likely to be a "pecking order" which is perfectly NATURAL behaviour (not to suggest that if its gets serious they should continue to be housed together). I hope this post clarifies my position in these regards!


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

carl1981 said:


> The ambient temp at the cooler side of the viv is around 25-26 at the bottom half and is around 28-30 at the top region of the cooler side. I've ordered a couple more air vents as I thought it would be better a one or two degrees lower so was going to put a few more vents in.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk


The less ventilation the less heat and humidity you will lose (in other words I think it will be detrimental to the monitor to install more vents).
Here`s an example of a halogen par 38 flood beam "basking bulb"...


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## carl1981 (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm using a repti zoo controller as below:









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## carl1981 (Jul 1, 2016)

The temperature sensor is around 8" below the 2 basking lights which is getting to around 38c . The ambient air at its lowest is 24c at the substrate level of the cooler end which is why I was going to install more vents . As I think if I raise the basking temperature the ambient temp will also rise which I think will go into the 30c range so thought more vents I can have higher basking spot while keeping the sam7e ambient temperatures.
I will raise the night time Temps to 30c now then as I've set the night time temp to 25c at the warm end of the viv at the moment so the cooler end will be substantially cooler.
The higher wattage bulb is a uvb bulb which is why it's not giving no where as much heat out as the par38 bulbs.
I've read conflicting information regarding using uvb with the ackies as some people say it's not necessary but they are from Australia with high levels of uva and uvb so I thought it would be better and more natural to provide it anyway.

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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

carl1981 said:


> The temperature sensor is around 8" below the 2 basking lights which is getting to around 38c . The ambient air at its lowest is 24c at the substrate level of the cooler end which is why I was going to install more vents . As I think if I raise the basking temperature the ambient temp will also rise which I think will go into the 30c range so thought more vents I can have higher basking spot while keeping the sam7e ambient temperatures.
> I will raise the night time Temps to 30c now then as I've set the night time temp to 25c at the warm end of the viv at the moment so the cooler end will be substantially cooler.
> The higher wattage bulb is a uvb bulb which is why it's not giving no where as much heat out as the par38 bulbs.
> I've read conflicting information regarding using uvb with the ackies as some people say it's not necessary but they are from Australia with high levels of uva and uvb so I thought it would be better and more natural to provide it anyway.
> ...


I`m a little confused, if the basking bulb is an MVB (mercury vapour), exactly how far is it from the face of the bulb to the closest surface of the animal when it`s basking below? If it is an MVB it will indeed be emitting quite a lot of heat, however there`s usually a minimum distance from bulb to animal (around 30cm).
It`s entirely your choice as to whether you provide the monitor with UVB exposure, just because they come from Australia has nothing to do with whether they need UVB in order to remain healthy, long lived and productive in captivity, there are far more important issues that need to be addressed at this time.
Why are you raising the nighttime temps to 30C, you only need to worry about the lowest ambient in the coolest parts @ 24c? I would also like to ask how you`re measuring the surface temp of the basking object and what is said object?


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## carl1981 (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm measuring the surface temperature under the basking light with my temperature probe as it is situated on the basking spot so is effectively the basking spot. The distance from bulb to animal is 8-10" and the optimum distance set by arcadia is 20cm - 30cm which is 8-12".
If raised the night time temp to 30c because I can only control the temp by using the one temp sensor which is under the basking light. So by raising the temp there to 30c it in turn raises the lowest temp at the other side of cage to 24c.
I have got analog temp dials at cool side of the cage to monitor Temps but can only control the Temps using the digital probe under the basking light.

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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

carl1981 said:


> I'm measuring the surface temperature under the basking light with my temperature probe as it is situated on the basking spot so is effectively the basking spot. The distance from bulb to animal is 8-10" and the optimum distance set by arcadia is 20cm - 30cm which is 8-12".
> If raised the night time temp to 30c because I can only control the temp by using the one temp sensor which is under the basking light. So by raising the temp there to 30c it in turn raises the lowest temp at the other side of cage to 24c.
> I have got analog temp dials at cool side of the cage to monitor Temps but can only control the Temps using the digital probe under the basking light.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk


Surface temperatures should always be measured with an infra red thermometer. A probe will give some widely inaccurate measurements.

What kind of brand MVB are you using? You mentioned Arcadia, but they don't make MV bulbs. Depending on the brand and watt the distance to the animal can be very different. 

It's impossible (or very hard at the very least) for and MVB alone to reach proper basking temperatures (60/70 degrees Celsius). You can either stick with the MVB and hang an halogen bulb next to it to reach suitable temperatures (60-70 degrees Celsius). Or switch to an T5 tube and use halogen spots.


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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

murrindindi said:


> I think we may be misunderstanding each other to a degree, I`m NOT nor ever have suggested people should keep them in pairs/other for "companionship", only for BREEDING purposes. Having said that, by far the most effective method is to raise them together from hatchling if possible.


There are good arguments for keeping breeding pairs. And I've repeatedly explicitly stated that breeding pairs is not what I'm arguing against. There is however no argument for keeping them in trios or more, at least not one that claims it's beneficial for the animal. 



murrindindi said:


> As far as me contradicting what I`ve said I`m certainly not, can you quote any post of mine where I`ve suggested a particular enclosure size if someone wants to keep multiple monitors in one enclosure?


How is claiming that every animal needs plenty of space, but letting solitary animal share that space with several other animals is not contradicting? Besides space is not the only resource animals compete over. The general rule of thumb of one basking spot for each animal (where they can be alone) would require quite a larger enclosure.



murrindindi said:


> You seem to think that "multiple" means a relatively large number, it means no such thing other than more than 1 (one). I would never suggest trying to keep more than 3 together and then usually under particular circumstances (there ARE pygmy species that will cohabit quite successfully).


Which pygmy species are you refering to? 



murrindindi said:


> As with almost ALL animals there`s likely to be a "pecking order" which is perfectly NATURAL behavior (not to suggest that if its gets serious they should continue to be housed together). I hope this post clarifies my position in these regards!


A 'pecking order' exist only in social animals and require bonds to be formed with other animals. An animal on the bottom of the pecking order is still considered part of the group. Such behavior hasn't been observed with monitors however. There are clearly dominant and weaker animals of course. But there is no indication of 'group' behavior; only that of intruder in an terrorize. An true 'pecking order' would result in similar behavior in the wild. Animals would seek each other out to form a group. As far as I'm aware no such things has ever been recorded.


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## carl1981 (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm using the arcadia below but 160w version









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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Creed said:


> How is claiming that every animal needs plenty of space, but letting solitary animal share that space with several other animals is not contradicting? Besides space is not the only resource animals compete over. The general rule of thumb of one basking spot for each animal (where they can be alone) would require quite a larger enclosure.
> 
> Which pygmy species are you refering to?
> A 'pecking order' exist only in social animals and require bonds to be formed with other animals. An animal on the bottom of the pecking order is still considered part of the group. Such behavior hasn't been observed with monitors however. There are clearly dominant and weaker animals of course. But there is no indication of 'group' behavior; only that of intruder in an terrorize. An true 'pecking order' would result in similar behavior in the wild. Animals would seek each other out to form a group. As far as I'm aware no such things has ever been recorded.


? You`re talking complete nonsense!?
I`ll will put more photos up in due course (V.trists, V. kingorum, V. baritji) being house together successfully and living long, healthy and productive lives), the following animals were housed together, they have bred a number of times, the hatchling have/are growing into healthy adults... 
It CAN be done and will continue to be done irrespective of whether you think it`s possible/acceptable (what exactly have you DONE in terms of keeping/raising captive varanids in captivity)?
Please show some photos/videos of your monitor/s and enclosures, then myself and others will be better able to decide whether the info you offer is reliable based on your RESULTS, that will also help the OP I`m sure (who has kept a trio in the past).


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

carl1981 said:


> I'm measuring the surface temperature under the basking light with my temperature probe as it is situated on the basking spot so is effectively the basking spot. The distance from bulb to animal is 8-10" and the optimum distance set by arcadia is 20cm - 30cm which is 8-12".
> If raised the night time temp to 30c because I can only control the temp by using the one temp sensor which is under the basking light. So by raising the temp there to 30c it in turn raises the lowest temp at the other side of cage to 24c.
> I have got analog temp dials at cool side of the cage to monitor Temps but can only control the Temps using the digital probe under the basking light.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk


Hi again, as far as I`m aware the minimum distance from the face of the MVB to the closest surface of the animal is 30 cm (12 inches), even slightly closer than that can cause a serious burn. You haven`t said where the basking site is or what you`re using as a basking object?
You cannot accurately measure the surface temp of the basking object with the probe, you need an IR Temp-gun (I`ll provide a link), they are very accurate but cheap to buy and you need one URGENTLY. The analogue gauges are generally quite inaccurate (as much as 15% out) which means you/we have no idea what the actual temps and humidity are. 
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191386183976?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

murrindindi said:


> ? You`re talking complete nonsense!?
> I`ll will put more photos up in due course (V.trists, V. kingorum, V. baritji) being house together successfully and living long, healthy and productive lives), the following animals were housed together, they have bred a number of times, the hatchling have/are growing into healthy adults...
> It CAN be done and will continue to be done irrespective of whether you think it`s possible/acceptable (what exactly have you DONE in terms of keeping/raising captive varanids in captivity)?
> Please show some photos/videos of your monitor/s and enclosures, then myself and others will be better able to decide whether the info you offer is reliable based on your RESULTS, that will also help the OP I`m sure (who has kept a trio in the past).


And again of actually providing any rational argument you resort back to trying to belittle or discredit the person your arguing against. You're are a knowledgeable keeper, but instead of providing any sort of evidence or logic you resort to ad hominum attacks and misplaced calls on authority. This really shouldn't be necessary if you actually make a valid point.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by posting these pictures. What is this suppose to prove?

What results are you referring to? That some people keep trios? I'm not sure how this refutes the statement that this husbandry practice is only about cramming as much animals in as little space as possible. That it increases the risk of fighting and dominance struggles and goes against the wild lifestyle of the animal. How does this disprove any of these points?

All the above points also apply to the dwarf species you mentioned. I would hesitate calling V. tristis a pygmy species though, since they grow larger then half a meter.


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Creed said:


> And again of actually providing any rational argument you resort back to trying to belittle or discredit the person your arguing against. You're are a knowledgeable keeper, but instead of providing any sort of evidence or logic you resort to ad hominum attacks and misplaced calls on authority. This really shouldn't be necessary if you actually make a valid point.
> 
> I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by posting these pictures. What is this suppose to prove?
> 
> ...


This is a serious DEBATE, it`s what these websites are designed to do!?
I offer "evidence" in the form of photos to show that more than one monitor can be (and ARE being) kept in "suitably sized" enclosures with success ("success" = long, healthy and productive lives). 
Once again you refuse to state your own experiences, it`s a perfectly REASONABLE request for anyone to ask of those offering advise, never mind you don`t want to discuss it??
If you want to help the OP in that regard show him examples of what YOU have done/are doing with these animals.
I didn`t say V.tristis was a pygmy monitor, only that I`ll put a few pics up shortly to show another example of a trio. I am NOT suggesting that it SHOULD be done only that it CAN be in certain circumstances.
You mention they don`t have much of a (any?) social structure in the wild, several years ago I asked you if you`d read Tsellarius`s articles on V. griseus in the Kyzylkum Desert, you said you had not, have you since? He reports they have a quite complicated social structure.
For your/anyone else`s information, the Lace monitor enclosure is around 10L x 3W x 2.4H (meters), obviously TINY in comparison to the space they have in the wild, but we ALL keep them in "matchboxes" in that regard (no, it isn`t ideal by the proverbial mile).


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## carl1981 (Jul 1, 2016)

The probe I'm using is accurate to Temperature precise: +/-1***8451;, Humidity precise:+/-5%

The infered temperature gun is accurate to 2-3°c but I will double check the temp with my infered temperature gun tomorrow as it's at work at the moment.

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk


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## carl1981 (Jul 1, 2016)

Numbers appeared again***129300;
My probe is accurate to +/- 1°c


Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

carl1981 said:


> The probe I'm using is accurate to Temperature precise: +/-1***8451;, Humidity precise:+/-5%
> 
> The infered temperature gun is accurate to 2-3°c but I will double check the temp with my infered temperature gun tomorrow as it's at work at the moment.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk


O.k, I`m not too familiar with the devise you`re using but if you say it`s accurate I accept that! 
I would still like to know what and where the basking object is?
I would also repeat that the halogen bulbs I mentioned are FAR superior to the high wattage MVB you`re currently using. If you want to continue offering UVB I would suggest a UVB emitting fluorescent tube such as a T5 Arcadia or Zoo-Med (it needs to be around 2/3rds the length of the enclosure and fitted with a reflector). The sooner you make these changes the better the monitor`s chances are of thriving.


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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

murrindindi said:


> This is a serious DEBATE, it`s what these websites are designed to do!?


Well it's not really debating what you generally do. You generally state that what other people saying is nonsense and state you are right because you have experience. That not debating, that's arguing. Why not provide logical assumptions or actual numbers, you're experienced and smart enough to do so.



murrindindi said:


> I offer "evidence" in the form of photos to show that more than one monitor can be (and ARE being) kept in "suitably sized" enclosures with success ("success" = long, healthy and productive lives).


Well a single photo sure proves and animals is living an healthy and long life. This is an extremely poor argument and doesn't chance the fact that the monitors will probably be healthier in pairs or alone. You still haven't stated anything to refute that



murrindindi said:


> Once again you refuse to state your own experiences, it`s a perfectly REASONABLE request for anyone to ask of those offering advise, never mind you don`t want to discuss it??
> If you want to help the OP in that regard show him examples of what YOU have done/are doing with these animals.


And once again I'm stating that really doesn't matter. I've allready explained more then a few times why I choose not make an call on autorithy. Because it closes an debate and does lead to anything productive. I can be disproven, just look at my arguments and assumptions. If I started boasting that I've raised some many healthy animal, I wouldn't be arguing just showing that I haven't learned anything or don't understand how to debate only how to argue. I will not be drawn into a debate about who has the longest experience.



murrindindi said:


> I didn`t say V.tristis was a pygmy monitor,


Then I'm not sure why you would give these examples when I asked you to give examples of pygmy species that are more suitable to life in groups. Two out of three of the species you mentioned as example grow longer then half a meter.



murrindindi said:


> only that I`ll put a few pics up shortly to show another example of a trio. I am NOT suggesting that it SHOULD be done only that it CAN be in certain circumstances.


I can also keep on monitor in a shoe-box, but it's hardly the most responsible way of keeping an monitor. Again I’m arguing that keeping pairs or solitary animals is the best way to keep these animals. 



murrindindi said:


> You mention they don`t have much of a (any?) social structure in the wild, several years ago I asked you if you`d read Tsellarius`s articles on V. griseus in the Kyzylkum Desert, you said you had not, have you since? He reports they have a quite complicated social structure.


Of course I have, In fact I replied to you pretty much immediately after your posted that. As i said then it's a wonder full way for these animals to avoid each other in the wild. I'm not sure how clear prove that these animals do their best to avoid each helps your case that it's fine to hold them in groups.



murrindindi said:


> For your/anyone else`s information, the Lace monitor enclosure is around 10L x 3W x 2.4H (meters), obviously TINY in comparison to the space they have in the wild, but we ALL keep them in "matchboxes" in that regard (no, it isn`t ideal by the proverbial mile).


Interesting, I would be very gratefull if you're able to post some more pictures in a new thread.


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## Debbie1962 (Dec 5, 2008)

Well I won't be joining the 'debate' as you both have mor experience than I have. I have kept my pair since they were hatchlings and they get on fine I am glad to say. I personally would not put another in there as I don't think the viv is big enough for 3 anyway. Those monitors are stunning!


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Debbie1962 said:


> Well I won't be joining the 'debate' as you both have mor experience than I have. I have kept my pair since they were hatchlings and they get on fine I am glad to say. I personally would not put another in there as I don't think the viv is big enough for 3 anyway. Those monitors are stunning!


Hi, I am not nor have I ever specifically advised anyone to keep them in trios, I`m just showing examples of the fact it HAS been done with success in the past, IS being done in the present, and no doubt it will be in the future, no matter what "Creed" or any other person thinks of the practice. 
If anyone wants to contact those keepers and voice their disapproval that`s fine, go for it folks, I`m more than happy to give contact details. :2thumb:
My Lace and Gould`s monitors were kept outdoors for much of the year, only coming inside during the coldest times, as it does, unfortunately get "cold" in Melbourne (very, very, very rarely, HONEST)....


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## Azastral (Jun 6, 2015)

Creed/Murri seen as you both obviously feel very passionate about your points of view, i would suggest moving them to another thread if you wish to continue as you are hijacking the OP's thread where he came asking for some advice and help.

As valid as the discussion about whether multiples can or should be kept together is, its becoming a bit of a heated issue. 
Please have some respect for that and either create your own thread or discuss it privately.


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

Why are you commenting a full 2 WEEKS after the last post???
You CLEARLY didn`t read the whole thread or you would have seen the OP stating he used to keep 2 monitors in the same enclosure without problems, therefore the discussion was relevant to him and anyone else who might read the thread who also keeps these animals in captivity.


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

This is an interesting thread. I've never kept a monitor of any kind so I won't comment. I do Keep Uromastyx though and have had several different species. 

Uromastyx are all basically described as solitary in the wild and advice on keeping them in pairs or more has usually been something that authors/keepers advise against unless it's for breeding because the can do each other serious damage, even leading to fatalities. Males together are said to be a complete no no with pairs and male fem/fem trios also being a potential volcano waiting to blow.

Anyhoo the observation I'm really making is that I have seen certain species always fight, like Egyptians, other species sometimes fight, Moroccans and some never fight, like Occelateds, Mali's and Indians. I have a trio of WC Mali's which I purchased in 2008 and I expected them to be skittish and difficult to handle, however they have been the most delightful, friendly trio of Uro's I've ever had. They "appear" to benefit from cohabitation and they are very calm with me. The most remarkable thing about this trio is that it is comprised of 2 males and 1 female. If an "expert" told me to separate them for fear of violence, competetive feeding, increased stress and potential risk of parasites etc etc I certainly would not, as I think this could cause things like higher stress and the potential problems that may bring. Should I have housed them separately upon arrival? I could not say either way. Would I advise anyone to house Mali Uro's in trios comprising two males and a female, No I couldn't really because I couldn't guarantee their behaviour in any way at all. Do I think my little trio have been stressed by being housed together for 8 years? Maybe, moreso than being housed apart from each other? I would say no, but that's only my opinion based on my 8 years of observing them.

I suppose the point I'm making is that while each individual keeper has his own experiences to draw upon, the next keeper along may contradict his experiences and may espouse the opposite in husbandry choices. And I suppose the potential differences in the animal's origins and husbandry choices all play a part in how they fare in captivity. 

I do find it interesting to hear how keepers differ in their husbandry choices, it must beg the question, is there more than one way to do it?


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## murrindindi (Feb 19, 2009)

There are almost always exceptions to the rule, in which case there must be "more than one way to do things". These are individual animals with individual behaviours whether in the wild or captivity. Captivty is so far removed from the wild, in some respects there is no "norm", if they do "this" in the wild, they should do it in captivity (WE say).


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## Azastral (Jun 6, 2015)

murrindindi said:


> Why are you commenting a full 2 WEEKS after the last post???
> You CLEARLY didn`t read the whole thread or you would have seen the OP stating he used to keep 2 monitors in the same enclosure without problems, therefore the discussion was relevant to him and anyone else who might read the thread who also keeps these animals in captivity.



And you are clearly highly strung...

The last post was also at 8:15am that day, and i had read the whole thread and seen where the OP was talking about keeping more than one.

However that doesnt equate to the thread being turned into what was nothing more than a slagging match between two others, and as you are showing with your response (which you OBVIOUSLY have to USE caps FOR to MAKE your POINT of SHOUTING come across)

It seems to be a reoccuring trait with you, regardless of how good your knowledge or experience is, you result to caps (something widely considered as shouting/rude in a forum) and attempts to undermine others.

Its getting old.


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