# Alternatives?



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

In light of recent threads and posts and of course polls.

PKL is undergoing a series of directed questions and polls aimed at the retail market. Your help is always welcomed.

Here is the question.

Should retailers right across the board, all animal keeping groups: be allowed to supply animals, should they be able to sell them?

There are three types of poll response, Yes, No, Alternative.

Now if you tick yes or no, please explain why, if you have ticked alternative, explain this also.

If retailers are not to supply livestock from shops, what alternatives should they have in place?

Breeders, direct sourcing, what?

Many thanks

ps: Please note, this is not in any way shape or form a direct attack on retail. I believe personally that licenced retailers/breeders should be the sellers of livestock only - whether the legislation to support that theory be here at present or not.

Retail is an integral part to the industry, but also a very much needed facet to the keeping of exotic animals for those that are novice or inexperienced to the world of keeping exotic companion animals.

Equally l find and think that retail should be present so as to in time reduce the amount of non licenced seller, perhaps encouraging the latter to become licenced and as such regulated.

I think that despite the fact that many keepers here, may not always deal with retail directly, the shop front is still an all important feature for the experienced keeper also.

What l am trying to establish is information, data feed back, no hidden agenda, just simple facts of opinion.

Many thanks

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Yes they should be able to sell livestock but ONLY with strict licencing.
Our local council refuse to issue petshop licences if

1) you dont have a city and guilds in pet shop managment.

2) a local vet finds you are not correctly set up

3) if you are caught not giving out care sheets the licence is revoked

and about another 50 conditions

As for reptiles if there is a body that are able to "check up" on the shops and would be able to enforce the CORRECT conditions for reps that would be great


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## gecko-kus (Aug 15, 2007)

Yes they should but i agree with faith... there should be stricter controls on licensing. Councils differ in their formats for giving licenses, as we have found with looking at 2 different councils and situations. 

There should be more consistancy through out the board!! and all conditions for having the license must be met, before it is issued.


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## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

Personally, I think that a straight 'yes' or 'no' with legislation as it is are the two worst routes - I selected 'alternative', because there is a LOT of work to be done if either 'yes' or 'no' are going to work for the benefit of the animals. Currently there is far too much suffering going on with the current pet-selling system, and I believe that there will be just as much suffering if there was an outright ban of sales...i.e. people will just go to the first free-ad they come across, and may not get any advice from the seller at all...certainly going to cause care problems.

Obviously you have said 'all animal keeping groups'. Now, my experience is that the 'small furry' keepers have a very different opinion and agenda to the 'reptile keepers'. 

If you put this very same poll on a fancy rat or rabbit forum, the majority vote would be that no animals should be sold in shops - simply because of the dire rescue situations for those particular species, and the fact that people just buy them and breed them. Which although is encouraged in the reptile hobby, is certainly not encouraged with small mammals. The problem of course is that small mammals breed far quicker and easier...and therefore the pet shop's role in producing this rescue problem is well known and disliked.

Back onto reptiles, my personal opinion is that shops perhaps should still sell reptiles - but only stock CB individuals, or healthy LTC. WC should not be encouraged, especially if amateur keepers buy them with no view to breed (i.e. to reduce the WC demand). So perhaps WC should only be available to experienced breeders - the WC aspect of reptile keeping is the one I find most distasteful, and one that I would feel better about if it was more strictly regulated regarding who they are sold to. 

However, in terms of ALL animal selling shops, there really does need to be far stricter, far better quality training and licensing. Currently, you only need one person in the shop to have taken a pet shop management course. This is NOT acceptable - EVERY member of staff should have some sort of in-depth training, the manager is not usually the only person who sells animals! You could have some numpty just dishing out naff advice to anyone, and nobody in any position of authority would bat an eyelid because they are conforming to the current licensing laws.

There should be a specific course set up, with modules on different pet species. You should only be allowed to stock a species if you can demonstrate knowledge and competence in its care and management - and you should only be allowed to give sell and offer advice on that species if you have passed the module in it. Perhaps not entirely practical for reptiles, considering the vast number of species available to the trade, but certainly feasible for small mammals. 

In terms of small furry animals....well, that's an entirely different topic and one that I would harp on for much longer than entirely necessary on a reptile forum :lol:


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## argentine_boa (Feb 10, 2007)

I say pet shops should be able to sell animals whether they are mice or reptiles. It brings a lot more interest into the hobby. Without pets in pet shops there will be less people buying animals, then years down the line no one keeping any animals. I know a lot of experienced people would go on the internet but if it is their first pet then a lot of people would listen to what the shop has to say about keeping it.

Good Pet shops in my opinion do promote the animals. Without these good pet shops, there is little or no promotion towards keeping pets so then less people will keep them.

I can see in years down the line, no one keeping any animals.

I would say, pet shops have to have at least a certain level or care and knowledge and have to be checked by vets etc. randomly not once a year so the shop doesn't know they are due to come and that they have to be more careful to who they sell to.


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## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

argentine_boa said:


> I say pet shops should be able to sell animals whether they are mice or reptiles. It brings a lot more interest into the hobby. Without pets in pet shops there will be less people buying animals, then years down the line no one keeping any animals. I know a lot of experienced people would go on the internet but if it is their first pet then a lot of people would listen to what the shop has to say about keeping it.
> 
> Good Pet shops in my opinion do promote the animals. Without these good pet shops, there is little or no promotion towards keeping pets so then less people will keep them.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with you about good pet shops promoting animals, and that the presence of animals brings interest to the hobby.

However, in the case of, say rats - the shop doesn't need to actually sell them to get people interested in them. They shop could have a nice setup with rats in to get people interested, and to get people to understand their characters and space needs, then offer prospective owners the details of local rescues or reputable breeders. This would certainly be preferable for small furries! Best of both really - getting people interested, then pointing them to responsible routes  But as I said, this would be more geared to small furries than reptiles.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Hi Neep Neep, 

Perhaps it would interest you to know that many reptile keepers have more small furry collections than small furry keepers have reptiles. So if you have views, why do you not share them?

Oddly enough l know of more reptile keepers with excellent mammal collections.

R


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

what i cannot understand, is why people will INSIST on this

"we are mammal people - so we won't talk to reptile people" malarky. 

what a load of tosh, how thoroughly ridiculous !

christ we even have our own societies at it.. the IHS for instance seem to turn their nose up at the mere _thought_ of mammal keepers

at the end of the day, we are ALL animal keepers, whether it be a beardie, a bunny, a budgie or a betta

why oh why oh why, can people not learn to unify the hobby..

thats ALL parts of the hobby.. not "the reptile keepers" "the small furry keepers" "the bird keepers"

i am surely not the only person on this forum and in this hobby, who keeps animals from all categories... i have birds, fish, mammals, reptiles and inverts.. why should my views be limited to "just" reptiles.. or "just" small furries ?

N


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## snickers (Aug 15, 2007)

I'm not sure.
Cats and dogs are no longer sold in pet shops and both hobbies are still thriving. But then there's the bad side - the puppy farms, and all the animals abandoned every christmas.
Rabbits, and small rodents are for sale in most pet shops and seem to do alright. Or at least I haven't heard any huge fuss about it.
The aquaria shops I've seen are mostly very good too.
I've also seen reptiles kept in horrible conditions in pet shops and some that I've been amazed how well they are kept.
But I don't know how you encourage the good ones and not the bad ones. We certainly don't want to drive things underground.
One thing I have noticed is that petshops that specialize are usually better than shops that sell everything. Not sure how that helps.

rambling so I'll finish


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## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Perhaps it would interest you to know that many reptile keepers have more small furry collections than small furry keepers have reptiles.


Yes, I do know that. But surely if you are one, then by definition you are the other? Is it just attitude that splits the two groups? Or is it whichever you kept first?




TSKA Rory Matier said:


> So if you have views, why do you not share them?


I have...see posts above 




> "we are mammal people - so we won't talk to reptile people" malarky.
> 
> what a load of tosh, how thoroughly ridiculous !


Quite right, I agree. But, like you say, those people do exist and they will never understand each other. 

What I am trying to point out is that keepers of different species will quite clearly have different views on different issues, because the effects will differ for each individual's species of interest.


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## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

snickers said:


> I'm not sure.
> Cats and dogs are no longer sold in pet shops and both hobbies are still thriving. But then there's the bad side - the puppy farms, and all the animals abandoned every christmas.
> Rabbits, and small rodents are for sale in most pet shops and seem to do alright. Or at least I haven't heard any huge fuss about it.
> The aquaria shops I've seen are mostly very good too.
> ...


There are currently about 30,000 rabbits in UK rescues, so they aren't doing too well  mostly due to their tendencies to, er, breed like rabbits :lol:

I do agree with the whole dog and cat issue - despite not being sold in shops, there is still a ridiculous number in rescue. Stopping shops selling animals won't be the magical miracle cure for the problem that some people think it could be...as you said, things get driven underground and all that happens is the 'middleman' is cut out...


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## slither61 (Nov 18, 2006)

Nerys said:


> what i cannot understand, is why people will INSIST on this
> 
> "we are mammal people - so we won't talk to reptile people" malarky.
> 
> ...


Hi all,

Well put Nerys, it is the petty minded societys that will not talk to each other that will kill the hobby.

Let each society have their identity,but when something happens we do not like, all move together with one big voice.
It does not matter wether you keep Rats or Elephants or Snakes we are all animal lovers at the end of the day, while we are fragmented like we are at the moment the anti's are loving it because we are running round like headless chickens with no direction.

Everyone seems only bothered about their own little world if its running ok they are not bothered about anything else utill it affects them personaly.

I think thats why nothing will be done in this country the government and the RSPCA will do what they want, the government will not listen and the RSPCA have millions at their disposal which was donated for the care of Animals _*not publicity campaings fancy headquarters and nice cars*_ but they are a law unto themselves and the government like them.

slither61 :snake::snake::snake::snake:


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I just thought I would say, I am not sure where the people who are saying cats & dogs are not sold in pet shops are, but here in Cardiff County it is perfectly legal for a pet shop to sell kittens and puppies if they are on the license. The shop needs to take these home every night, and puppies have to be provided with 25 square foot of space as an enclosure, so you don't see it very often with puppies - especially as people just stick them on the freeads and get their cash direct. I know of at least one pet shop that sells kittens regular, and also - the city market often has kittens on the pet food stall, and ask upwards of £50-70 per kitten, despite homing centers being full of them.. and yes, you can guess it.. coming up to christmas, the prices double.

It is certainly not illegal to sell a puppy or a kitten in a pet shop in this area, I was discussing this with a vet inspector for the county just last week... if anything, the main reason shops don't is because they can't get hold of the stock, due to private people breeding and charging the same prices as shops because anyone will buy a cute puppy.


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## argentine_boa (Feb 10, 2007)

Athravan said:


> I just thought I would say, I am not sure where the people who are saying cats & dogs are not sold in pet shops are, but here in Cardiff County it is perfectly legal for a pet shop to sell kittens and puppies if they are on the license. The shop needs to take these home every night, and puppies have to be provided with 25 square foot of space as an enclosure, so you don't see it very often with puppies - especially as people just stick them on the freeads and get their cash direct. I know of at least one pet shop that sells kittens regular, and also - the city market often has kittens on the pet food stall, and ask upwards of £50-70 per kitten, despite homing centers being full of them.. and yes, you can guess it.. coming up to christmas, the prices double.
> 
> It is certainly not illegal to sell a puppy or a kitten in a pet shop in this area, I was discussing this with a vet inspector for the county just last week... if anything, the main reason shops don't is because they can't get hold of the stock, due to private people breeding and charging the same prices as shops because anyone will buy a cute puppy.


I agree it is legal. Harrods even sell puppies and kittens


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## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

> It is certainly not illegal to sell a puppy or a kitten in a pet shop in this area, I was discussing this with a vet inspector for the county just last week... if anything, the main reason shops don't is because they can't get hold of the stock, due to private people breeding and charging the same prices as shops because anyone will buy a cute puppy.


Yes, sorry, I didn't explain myself properly :blush: It is indeed totally legal, but I would consider it rare to see puppies in shops - kittens are not so rare, but even then, they aren't so common. I don't remember ever seeing kittens and puppies for sale in a shop, and i've been in quite a few :lol: But I do know that there are some that still do, I have never come across any myself...and the one in my area that I was told does sell kittens on occasion, I have deliberately avoided for that very reason.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

puppies don't have a good shelf life. you have to sell them quickly.


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