# false water cobra



## lovepets (May 15, 2008)

just was wondering are they venomous or does the title false mean they dont have any?


----------



## malky201 (Sep 16, 2006)

Pretty sure they are rear fanged, but their venom isnt considered dangerous, still wouldnt fancy a good chew off one though!


----------



## weelad (Jul 25, 2006)

well the false cobra bit is obviously because they hood up slightly like a cobra and their not actully cobra's their also known as a brazillian smooth snake they are rear fanged and iv heard people compare their venom too a timber rattlr snake's? but their delivery system isnt as good a little search on google and im sure theirs plenty of infomation


----------



## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*Fwc*

Also if you type False Water Cobra or FWC on the Search function of this forum you will find much information on them from keepers, including myself.

enjoy, they're amazing snakes.


----------



## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

malky201 said:


> Pretty sure they are rear fanged, but their venom isnt considered dangerous, still wouldnt fancy a good chew off one though!


Thats something we agree on! : victory:


----------



## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

I personally took a call from a hospital that had admitted someone who had been bitten by one of these false water cobras in the mid 90’s. It turned out to be the late John Foden who had in his career received a number of bites from “proper” venomous snakes. He had always dismissed FWC as being essentially harmless..... but his bite was particularly nasty and he developed severe swelling to his arm.


----------



## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

PDR said:


> I personally took a call from a hospital that had admitted someone who had been bitten by one of these false water cobras in the mid 90’s. It turned out to be the late John Foden who had in his career received a number of bites from “proper” venomous snakes. He had always dismissed FWC as being essentially harmless..... but his bite was particularly nasty and he developed severe swelling to his arm.


there is a good scene of events photographed in the general snake section with a time scale from a member who was bite by a young one i think and his arm swelled up alot and was very painful


----------



## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Does anybody know if FWC's have caused deaths throughout their range?


----------



## Jack W (Feb 9, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> Does anybody know if FWC's have caused deaths throughout their range?


There have been no reported deaths, however as FWCs do have a potent venom I imagine a fatality could be possibly from a severe allergic reaction following a bite. However this would be very unlikely, and I personally doubt there will be a fatality, but you never know. They are far less dangerous than the usual species talked about on this side of the forum, but still not a snake to be careless with.


----------



## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Jack W said:


> There have been no reported deaths, however as FWCs do have a potent venom I imagine a fatality could be possibly from a severe allergic reaction following a bite. However this would be very unlikely, and I personally doubt there will be a fatality, but you never know. They are far less dangerous than the usual species talked about on this side of the forum, but still not a snake to be careless with.


 
Ok, cheers.

And nah so it seems not...I have spoken to two people who have been nailed by Falsies....Both have said that the bite itself is extremely painful as they have very strong jaws.

Ive never experienced it, just going by what they said.


----------



## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*FWCs*

PDR's commentary is most welcome, thanks. 

We're talking about John Foden getting a bite here and few keepers have the experience he had. 

A few days back my female was obviously unusually startled. She moved so quick into an S-shape and hood that all I glimpsed in the viv was "no snake" followed by "fully exposed snake on substrate surface" without any in between...and I'm not joking either!!

Thats fast.

It's been mentioned in other posts but as per Viperlover, mechanical damage is not pretty, even aside from the venom. Also I believe that as yet we may not have covered all geographical toxicity variations although its supposition on my part. No matter what though exceeding a 10mg yield seems highly doubtful.

Nonetheless potentially severe swelling, bruising, sickness and in prolonged bites... disfiguration...means I intend to avoid being tagged.

Using my hook (always) is best advice coupled with respectful handling to facilitate calm, hood down and glove free handling. 

Of course not all FWC individuals can be handled glove free...

You'll know which ones LOL trust me :lol2:


----------



## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

I would argue that False water cobras do not necessarily possess the poor delivery system they are often quoted as having.
This hatchling fwc:









was attached to my right hand ring finger for no more than 20 seconds, this is the result 1 hour after the bite (notice swollen knuckle):









24 hours after the bite:









The picture does not show, but the swelling was to the elbow. 
Swelling or arm and lymph nodes remained for 5 days or so, localised bruising and joint pain remained for 2 weeks or so. The skin of the bitten finger started to slough roughly 2 weeks after the bite, thereafter no other ill effects were noticeable. 

This is not an allergic reaction, these are the direct effects of the venom.

David.


----------



## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

I used to keep FWCs at home. I bought my first pair in the early 90’s as youngsters (bigger than those in David’s photo). Opened the transport tub and lifted the male out with my hands... seemed calm enough. Then unpacked the female and she promptly bit me and had a chew. There was pain, swelling and throbbing of my hand. 
Later on I had a large breeding pair of FWCs which were normally quite placid. These are strong snakes and I came home one time to find that the female had pushed the heavy sliding glass of the cage open and had escaped under the cage. The cage was fixed low into an alcove of the room and she was underneath the cage. I could not see her as it was a small space so I had to rely on feel, using my hand to reach under and pull her out..... in the process she bit me. Thankfully I only had very minor reaction with that bite, I was expecting worse given my experience with the young FWC.
Compared to a rattlesnake bites for example (of which I have personal experience) FWC’s aren’t that bad...... but they can still be *very *painful. These snakes do need to be given respect.


----------



## ScottGB (May 12, 2008)

Thing is, an I don't know where it originally came from. I've heard an read that the bite is supposed to by like a Timber rattle Snake bite. But that could be a miss quote i.e the venom might be close in strength or type.


----------



## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

What they say is that the venom is, drop for drop as powerful as that of a timber Rattlesnake.... the major difference is of course is the venom yield. I’d estimate the venom yield of a timber to be around 200+mg where as I doubt the FWC produce more than 10 mg.
There is a paper on the venom of this species, I’ll see if I can find a copy in my office.


----------



## ScottGB (May 12, 2008)

PDR said:


> What they say is that the venom is, drop for drop as powerful as that of a timber Rattlesnake.... the major difference is of course is the venom yield. I’d estimate the venom yield of a timber to be around 200+mg where as I doubt the FWC produce more than 10 mg.
> There is a paper on the venom of this species, I’ll see if I can find a copy in my office.


Thanks a lot for that. I wasn't sure how it compared. I knew there wasn't been any death on record though the FWC, and that timber rattlesnakes had a good few.


----------



## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*Chomping*

Thanks David for your pics mate. Hmmm that has actually surprised me and what is more the fang punctures can be clearly seen.

Like I've said to others, I've seen some very bloodied (but predead!) mice once my FWC has it on the fangs and starts scrunching down both with jaw and neck muscles as it goes down...

Admittedly I've been reviewing my husbandry to ensure I wear gloves if changing water etc, as startling mine (like i did the other day) could result in a bite.

VERY interesting about the delivery system comment too. Lots of factors of course:

Are juve's more potent perhaps?...dont laugh there are snakes that are, unlikely I know.
Feeding or defensive bite?
Good store of venom if not fed in a while?
Toxicity level higher in certain geographical areas perhaps?
Did it hit a nice juicy vein or lymph fluid vessel!?

Anyway seeing your juve is makin me wanna buy a male!! LOL. Mad or what. 

:lol2:


----------



## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*Or...*

Are you sure its not an allergic reaction though David?

They can happen even if not happened to you before. Snakes mouths probably carry a load of bacteria. 

My brother gets allergic reactions to mozzy bites. His arm swells up at bite site, usually his arm. The flesh goes quite solid to the touch. Must admit though antihistamines reverse this type of condition quickly..provided the Doc gives it the all clear of course.

Worth considering perhaps.


----------



## paraman (Oct 27, 2007)

maffy said:


> Are you sure its not an allergic reaction though David?
> 
> They can happen even if not happened to you before. Snakes mouths probably carry a load of bacteria.
> 
> ...


I saw Davids' hand 2 weeks after the bite and it was still swollen 
Im pretty sure that was the effects of venom and I know it put him in hospital .


----------



## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*Hmmm*

I'm no Doctor but it does seem most unlikely that an allergic reaction lasted for two weeks.

That said regular tetanus jabs do ensure less complications for all of us.

Anyway it is a fairly toxic venom with lots of components to cause swelling like this and (stating the bleedin' obvious here!) totally consistent with other FWC bite reactions.

Hope your juvenile FWC buddy appreciates your care after all that though David, :lol2:

FWC commentary - "i saw this big vulture like thing comin' to grab me, so i just dug in real deep and gave him one of my best chomps...".


----------



## smart1 (Oct 16, 2007)

saw this on utube ,guy says at the first bit that it isnt venomous, the decides to say it maybe , seemes to hang one for a while chewing aswell


YouTube - Nigel Marven finds a false water cobra


----------



## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

Nigel Marvin responds! - sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum

if you liked that Smart1, you'll like this too. Like I said, enthusiasm (and a little "showmanship" perhaps?) can be painful. 

I apologise for RFUK sacrilege in advance :bash:


----------



## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

> Feeding or defensive bite?


In my experience young false water cobras do not distinguish between feeding and defensive bites, as soon as something is in their mouth they will bite down and chew. This is very useful for non feeders!



> Good store of venom if not fed in a while?


As a general rule colubrids do not possess a venom storage lumen, so cannot store large quantities of venom within the venom gland. So in theory this should not be an issue.



> Toxicity level higher in certain geographical areas perhaps?
> Did it hit a nice juicy vein or lymph fluid vessel!?


Geographical venom variation is possible and very likely as fwcs do have a large range, but I would guess (pure conjecture) that the captive pool of fwcs are all from a limited geographic area. I'm pretty sure that nobody has studied venom variation in fwcs.



> Are you sure its not an allergic reaction though David?


It is very difficult to develop an allergy to the venoms of colubrids unless you are working around lyophilised venoms. Subcutaneous exposure to small quantities of venom (i.e. a colubrid bite) very rarely results in allergy. Exposure across a mucous membrane (e.g. inhaling dried venom particles) will rapidly result in allergy, but very rarely happens with colubrids because of the small quantities produced. The symptoms of my bite were consitent with envenomation, not allergy. I did take antihistamines within a few minutes of the bite.



> Hope your juvenile FWC buddy appreciates your care after all that though David


Unfortunately I sold him along with all his siblings a few months a go. I would have like to have kept him. If all goes well I should have quite a few more hatchlings next year.



> I saw Davids' hand 2 weeks after the bite and it was still swollen
> Im pretty sure that was the effects of venom and I know it put him in hospital .


The junior doctor certainaly got a suprise when I told him what the cause of my balloon size arm was. I'll pop in for a visit to the shop in the next few weeks.



> There is a paper on the venom of this species, I’ll see if I can find a copy in my office.


I think the original study that did LD50s for fwcs was Glenn 1992 but I can't track down the original. An LD50 of 2.0 mg/kg is quoted in Hill and Mackessy, 2000 (http://www.unco.edu/nhs/biology/faculty_staff/mackessy/2000 Toxicon Hill and Mackessy.pdf)

David.


----------



## paraman (Oct 27, 2007)

The junior doctor certainaly got a suprise when I told him what the cause of my balloon size arm was. I'll pop in for a visit to the shop in the next few weeks.

That will be good, I'm there most weekends, if you can let me know when I'll bring my fwc in with me.


----------



## smart1 (Oct 16, 2007)

maffy said:


> Nigel Marvin responds! - sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum
> 
> if you liked that Smart1, you'll like this too. Like I said, enthusiasm (and a little "showmanship" perhaps?) can be painful.
> 
> I apologise for RFUK sacrilege in advance :bash:


 
good read there cheers


----------



## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

DavidR said:


> As a general rule colubrids do not possess a venom storage lumen, so cannot store large quantities of venom within the venom gland. So in theory this should not be an issue..


I need to get an old paper out on this. It was data on an FWC head anatomy. If I recall correctly there is some storage capacity. 

If you took antihistamines we can rule out allergy! Swelling is reduced very quickly once on this medication. I know, as my brothers consistent (  mozzy bites significantly reduce in swelling over three days. Without them and the swelling is not pleasant.

That bite must have been venom just as you originally said anyway.

I think the original study that did LD50s for fwcs was Glenn 1992 but I can't track down the original. An LD50 of 2.0 mg/kg is quoted in Hill and Mackessy, 2000 (http://www.unco.edu/nhs/biology/faculty_staff/mackessy/2000 Toxicon Hill and Mackessy.pdf)

Yes that study is great.

Also Smart1, no probs. I liked it too, Nigel at least was very gracious and honest afterwards. Probably why professional herp experts are concerned about forums at times. Nigels main interest is in boas I think.


----------

