# goldfish as prizes



## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

:censor: rant thread, went to a bonfire show at Winterton last night, to see goldfish in bags being carried around. needless to say i couldnt venture into the fair to see what stand was doing it, it ruined my night totally seeing this and knowing we had paid our money to get in to support this cruelty. have already emailed the council complaining though i doubt anything will happen. why is this still allowed? 

the family in front of us had this little 3" orange and white comet in his tiny bag of water, gasping and stressed, swinging while they watched the fireworks. i dread to think where the poor fish is now, i just wanted to grab him and run back to the car to take him home! they were laughing and joking saying about how they hope he lives til they get home. i just hope they had a lovely big pond for him to go into after quarantine...

i couldnt have gone to find the stand, i would have ended up creating such a scene and looking like some mental head case and wanted to take thme all home, so ive written a very strong email to Winterton council to see what they have to say on the matter. we didnt spend another penny there though, as soon as the fireworks were done we went, i certainly wont be heading back again next year unless the council ban this practice, a shame really as its a great display, but i will not knowingly support cruelty on any level.


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## jme2049 (Jan 11, 2008)

My friends daughter won a goldfish at a fireworks show last night too.:devil:


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## discussam7 (Sep 10, 2011)

goldie1212 said:


> so ive written a very strong email to Winterton council to see what they have to say on the matter. .


good on you, good to see someone standing up about it! hope you get a positive reply.


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## markn (Jul 29, 2010)

I thought it was illegal. When we did one of our fundraising events we got a local shop to donate goldfish vouchers. On the voucher was also a 25% discount for anyone purchasing a new setup with the fish. The shopkeeper gave people the equipment at the discounted price and asked them to come back a week later for the fish. Most of the people that collected the fish bought a setup so the shop owner was happy.


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## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

I saw this happening last night aswell, surely it should be made illegal?


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

i'm glad i missed the local fireworks show now, i went out for a friend's birthday but the other half went with a friend and said there was a goldfish stand. Disgraceful.

Its something that really upsets me, no-one gives a monkeys about fish, especially goldfish. the RSPCA etc get up on their high horse the second a chickens in too small a cage before it gets eaten so why not this.... oh yeah it's not fluffy or feathered or publicity worthy enough....:censor:

i've heard some councils have banned it, but i think overall it stills goes on... 


i read this a while back, good reading How can we stop goldfish being given away as prizes? | Blog | Practical Fishkeeping


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

It's illegal for anyone under the age of 16 to win an animal as a prize. I'm not sure if their is a loophole if the parents are with them.


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## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

It should be banned full stop.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

TheDogMan said:


> It's illegal for anyone under the age of 16 to win an animal as a prize. I'm not sure if their is a loophole if the parents are with them.


yeah, but like the people on the stands are going to be checking IDs etc... and yep it's fine if the parents are with them, which 9/10 time they probably are.


Just ban it outright. Full stop! if they can't do it at all then that's the end of it.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

sadly not illegal, just frowned upon, and banned by decent councils which this one obviously wasnt. i almost ended up in tears, really ruined my evening and i cant believe i handed over perfectly good money to go to this event. ive told the council that i will be naming and shaming them as a council with total disregard to animal cruelty. 

as long as the councils allow it or it remains legal, and idiots hand over their money to 'win' one of these poor fish, it will continue. stupidly, they will spend many pounds trying to win a fish which could be purchased most likely in a more healthy state, for 50p-£1 at the local pet shop.

if i dont hear back from the council, i will continue to send them emails until i do.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

jme2049 said:


> My friends daughter won a goldfish at a fireworks show last night too.:devil:


i hope you informed them that they have successfully encouraged the continued abuse of living creatures...and the true care needs of these beautiful fish.

sorry, one of my friends a year or 2 back did the same, and was very happy with herself, it was so difficult putting across the reality of what goes on and not being looked at like an OCD loon!


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

why is that legal, if they where giving away kittens like thta there would be outcry. it's crazy. 

i've only ever seen goldfish as prizes in the west midlends goldfish keepers socioty meeting a few mounths ago. which i can understand


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

miss_mystra said:


> yeah, but like the people on the stands are going to be checking IDs etc... and yep it's fine if the parents are with them, which 9/10 time they probably are.
> 
> 
> Just ban it outright. Full stop! if they can't do it at all then that's the end of it.


I agree, believe me I'm not defending it :lol2:


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## beardys (Sep 28, 2009)

this isnt new. they have been doing it for years so where have you been hiding. ive won a few in my time. to actually think that you are unaware of this really makes me think you must be living in another time zone or planet.


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## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

beardys said:


> this isnt new. they have been doing it for years so where have you been hiding. ive won a few in my time. to actually think that you are unaware of this really makes me think you must be living in another time zone or planet.


I think you are missing the point. We are all aware that this is not new, its been happening for many a year. I think the general consensus is why is this still allowed to happen. As for you saying 



> ive won a few in my time.


Do you want congratulating? If I was you I would be ashamed of that comment. Its disgusting that this is still allowed to happen, with people taking the mind set you have it is not going to help stop this cruel practice. The way you have posted makes me think you have the 'its always happened, and always will happen' attitude.


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

beardys said:


> ive won a few in my time.


:gasp: You must be like the Yoda of hooking ducks, teach me!


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

beardys said:


> this isnt new. they have been doing it for years so where have you been hiding. ive won a few in my time. to actually think that you are unaware of this really makes me think you must be living in another time zone or planet.


as said, we all know it happens, unfortunately this time i was in the wrong place and the wrong time as ive always managed to avoid any events condoning this cruelty. 

i hope you are pleased you have contributed to the awful practice by handing over money winning these creatures. well done.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

:lol2: just seen the tags on this thread...breakdown...:lol2: ok


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

TheDogMan said:


> I agree, believe me I'm not defending it :lol2:



haha yeah i know just sort of adding on in angry mode makes it sounds like i'm having a go sorry! :blush::lol2:


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## beardys (Sep 28, 2009)

zekee said:


> I think you are missing the point. We are all aware that this is not new, its been happening for many a year. I think the general consensus is why is this still allowed to happen. As for you saying
> 
> 
> 
> Do you want congratulating? If I was you I would be ashamed of that comment. Its disgusting that this is still allowed to happen, with people taking the mind set you have it is not going to help stop this cruel practice. The way you have posted makes me think you have the 'its always happened, and always will happen' attitude.


no im not ashamed of it thanks. and it prob will carry on happening.


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## beardys (Sep 28, 2009)

TheDogMan said:


> :gasp: You must be like the Yoda of hooking ducks, teach me!


no you need to know how to throw darts: victory:


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## beardys (Sep 28, 2009)

goldie1212 said:


> as said, we all know it happens, unfortunately this time i was in the wrong place and the wrong time as ive always managed to avoid any events condoning this cruelty.
> 
> i hope you are pleased you have contributed to the awful practice by handing over money winning these creatures. well done.


i am pleased as i gave them a very good home and cared for them greatly. m8 it wouldnt bother me if they did ban it as it would be good for them to do that but when i see a fish in a plastic bag and own fish in a tank at home i think i will at least save 1. they do it fo the familys that go to funfairs with kids etc and of course when you have kids and fish at home they want 1. i suppose i should have a go at my dad and tell him how naughty he was back in the 90's.NOT. i have kids of my own now and prob would still try and win one if we were out still because we have fish at home but still i'm not going to cry if they ever banned it.


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## jme2049 (Jan 11, 2008)

goldie1212 said:


> i hope you informed them that they have successfully encouraged the continued abuse of living creatures...and the true care needs of these beautiful fish.
> 
> sorry, one of my friends a year or 2 back did the same, and was very happy with herself, it was so difficult putting across the reality of what goes on and not being looked at like an OCD loon!


Haha I will be telling them, don't you worry


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

beardys said:


> no you need to know how to throw darts: victory:


Oh I haven't got a chance in hell then :lol2:


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## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

beardys said:


> i am pleased as i gave them a very good home and cared for them greatly. m8 it wouldnt bother me if they did ban it as it would be good for them to do that but when i see a fish in a plastic bag and own fish in a tank at home i think i will at least save 1. they do it fo the familys that go to funfairs with kids etc and of course when you have kids and fish at home they want 1. i suppose i should have a go at my dad and tell him how naughty he was back in the 90's.NOT. i have kids of my own now and prob would still try and win one if we were out still because we have fish at home but still i'm not going to cry if they ever banned it.


So if they were doing this with beardies you would be ok with that?


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## beardys (Sep 28, 2009)

zekee said:


> So if they were doing this with beardies you would be ok with that?


no i wouldnt. a beardy is a beardy and a fish is a fish. there is no comparison but i do know where you are coming from dont wrry.if you really feel that strongly about it then i would suggest taking it to the house of commons of something but i doubt you will as its just a subject that you feel you really dislike it but wont actually do anything about it exept for show how much dislike you have for it on here. if you were to start a petition i would gladly sign it.


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## rmy (Jun 13, 2010)

The Practice of giving fish away as prizes is in fact illegal and has been for the past 5 odd years.
I would suggest emailing Dr Paula Reynolds at Lincolnshire fish health as she had a great input into making it illegal
[email protected] 

I would suggest just putting a brief description of what you have seen, The name of the display and its location


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

beardys said:


> no i wouldnt. a beardy is a beardy and a fish is a fish. there is no comparison but i do know where you are coming from dont wrry.if you really feel that strongly about it then i would suggest taking it to the house of commons of something but i doubt you will as its just a subject that you feel you really dislike it but wont actually do anything about it exept for show how much dislike you have for it on here. if you were to start a petition i would gladly sign it.


im unsure how you feel there is no comparison, both are living, breathing, feeling creatures. its idiotic to say that giving away 1 stressed animal is different to another.

i personally have done something about it, and if i hear nothing back i will take it higher. it is a disgusting practice, and it continues due to the many hundreds and probably thousands of like minded people like you. you are encouraging the cruelty by handing over even a single penny of your money to these people. if everyone stopped playing the games to win the fish, there would be no call for them to stress and kill many hundreds of juvenile goldfish.

common sense should play a big part here, you say you dont like it even though 'they're just fish' :censor: yet you are one of the many who make it worthwhile for the storeholders to carry on. 

still no reply to my email, will give them a few more days and email them again.


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## CheeseBurger (Nov 6, 2011)

Never even kept fish, but it doesn't take a genius to see that selling them is cruel.

And, personally, I wouldn't say giving away goldfish as prizes is any different to giving away beardies in the same fashion.


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## donia (Apr 15, 2009)

Same as above. Not a great fish fan myself, but think it is disgusting to give any living creature away as a prize, especially in the conditions the fish are kept in! 

I remember winning 3 fish when I was a kid with my dad in the mid 80's, and I still feel guilty about it now. Shocked it still happens.


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## rmy (Jun 13, 2010)

As I posted earlier it should no longer be taking place!


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## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Although it should not be taking place and if indeed it is illegal, it saddens me to say but police are not actively looking at this as a crime. The fair I was at on Saturday, had plenty of police officers but not one approached the stall to say stop this. Maybe they are not aware of it being illegal, or they just simply cannot be bothered as it will be too much paper work. As said earlier in the thread, I doubt even the RSPCA would do anything as fish are not as high profile as say a cat or a dog. Something needs to be done. Im not sure how this can be policed better, but it drastically needs looking at.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

Well, good news on the email i sent. i got a reply 1st thing yesterday from a town clerk who said she would forward it to the right place for me. by yesterday afternoon i had an email back to me from the chairman of Winterton agricultural society and town Councillor Don Johnson, in his reply he wrote this-


_The Agricultural Society let the Fairground to an outside agency and have limited control over what stalls he allows on the field. However, I have spoken to the gentleman, before writing this email, and* he has agreed to ask the stall holder in question not to bring goldfish to next years bonfire.* Your email will also be discussed by the Bonfire Committee when they review this years bonfire next week.

_
I have told them i would like to know for sure 100% if goldfish are going to be given away at next years celebrations as we will not be going if they are or even if there is a chance. At least they have listened to me, or appeared to have done. If everybody did the same thing and contacted the relevent councils in their areas to complain, hopefuly something may get done in other places too. please speak up if it happens in your area.


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## Drayvan (Jul 7, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> Well, good news on the email i sent. i got a reply 1st thing yesterday from a town clerk who said she would forward it to the right place for me. by yesterday afternoon i had an email back to me from the chairman of Winterton agricultural society and town Councillor Don Johnson, in his reply he wrote this-
> 
> 
> _The Agricultural Society let the Fairground to an outside agency and have limited control over what stalls he allows on the field. However, I have spoken to the gentleman, before writing this email, and* he has agreed to ask the stall holder in question not to bring goldfish to next years bonfire.* Your email will also be discussed by the Bonfire Committee when they review this years bonfire next week.
> ...


Well done on getting the response you were looking for :notworthy: fingers crossed that no more will be given away in years to come. This needs to be something that all councils regulate seeing as this practice is illegal.
If only everyone stood up for what they feel is right, its shocking that even within the hobby itself people still regard these creatures as 'just fish' or even 'just an animal' and to stand up for their welfare/rights makes you out to look like an eccentric lunatic :lol2:


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

how very true, im happy to appear an eccentric OCD loony :lol2::crazy: as long as in the long run it helps even a few goldfish and opens the eyes of just a few people. 

i know im a wee bit :whistling2: OTT when it comes to goldfish, or any animal really but i know im worse with creatures i really adore, but if i had just done what hundreds of others had and had a quick moan and not done anything about it, it will carry on regardless. ive had my say, and hopefully it will make a difference :2thumb:


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> how very true, im happy to appear an eccentric OCD loony :lol2::crazy: as long as in the long run it helps even a few goldfish and opens the eyes of just a few people.
> 
> i know im a wee bit :whistling2: OTT when it comes to goldfish, or any animal really but i know im worse with creatures i really adore, but if i had just done what hundreds of others had and had a quick moan and not done anything about it, it will carry on regardless. ive had my say, and hopefully it will make a difference :2thumb:



well done Goldie!! It's a good start 

However if it IS illegal why aren't they being prosecuted, never mind 'asked' to not do it again?

But, i shouldn't knock it, it's a step in the right direction where this vile practice stops, i'm as big a fish nut as you Goldie, someones got to stand up for the poor buggers (it's not just a fish!!)... even vegetarians eat fish! but that's a whole other saga of things that don't make sense to me haha


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

ive heard a lot of people say it is illegal, but apparently it isnt its just frowned upon by sensible caring people, although its been called to be made illegal many times. sadly, the 'its just a fish' line wins out every time. hopefully...one day soon....it will be made illegal.


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

goldie1212 said:


> ive heard a lot of people say it is illegal, but apparently it isnt its just frowned upon by sensible caring people, although its been called to be made illegal many times. sadly, the 'its just a fish' line wins out every time. hopefully...one day soon....it will be made illegal.


It is NOT illegal , unfortunately . It was in the white paper , but the secretary of state responsible under the last government Patrica Hewitt M.P , removed it from the Animal Welfare Bill .


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## INJAF (Nov 12, 2011)

Nice work goldie1212, great to see someone taking positive action and getting a good result  I've just posted this pic on another thread but seeing as the 'model' is a fairground prize it fits in here too so hopefully the multiple posting will be acceptable 

The bowl is the sort I've seen being sold at fairs to accomodate the hapless creatures being offered as prizes. 8" at the widest point it holds all of 4 litres. The fish, Howie, was a fairground prize won by a friend of a friend in 2000 and rehomed by us in 2009. He's over 10" long and weighs over 1lb. I do wonder how much custom a 'win a goldie' stall would get if it were offering full grown versions of goldies with the opportunity to spend many £ on kit for them ... I wonder how many people would prefer the cuddly toy option if they fully realised what the dainty little golden creature in the tiny bag was going to turn into and that they should be preparing to spend a lot of £ to accomodate it for at least the next 20 years ...  I also wonder how many of the fish won on the same day as Howie are still alive ...


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## le0pardgecko (Nov 2, 2011)

goldie1212 said:


> :censor: rant thread, went to a bonfire show at Winterton last night, to see goldfish in bags being carried around. needless to say i couldnt venture into the fair to see what stand was doing it, it ruined my night totally seeing this and knowing we had paid our money to get in to support this cruelty. have already emailed the council complaining though i doubt anything will happen. why is this still allowed?
> 
> the family in front of us had this little 3" orange and white comet in his tiny bag of water, gasping and stressed, swinging while they watched the fireworks. i dread to think where the poor fish is now, i just wanted to grab him and run back to the car to take him home! they were laughing and joking saying about how they hope he lives til they get home. i just hope they had a lovely big pond for him to go into after quarantine...
> 
> i couldnt have gone to find the stand, i would have ended up creating such a scene and looking like some mental head case and wanted to take thme all home, so ive written a very strong email to Winterton council to see what they have to say on the matter. we didnt spend another penny there though, as soon as the fireworks were done we went, i certainly wont be heading back again next year unless the council ban this practice, a shame really as its a great display, but i will not knowingly support cruelty on any level.


Couldnt agree with you more, i thought it was banned until bonfire night saw loads of people with various fantails, them being a delicate fish as it is, i shared the same feelings about the looking like a mental person.

I really wish it would be banned..


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

INJAF said:


> Nice work goldie1212, great to see someone taking positive action and getting a good result  I've just posted this pic on another thread but seeing as the 'model' is a fairground prize it fits in here too so hopefully the multiple posting will be acceptable
> 
> The bowl is the sort I've seen being sold at fairs to accomodate the hapless creatures being offered as prizes. 8" at the widest point it holds all of 4 litres. The fish, Howie, was a fairground prize won by a friend of a friend in 2000 and rehomed by us in 2009. He's over 10" long and weighs over 1lb. I do wonder how much custom a 'win a goldie' stall would get if it were offering full grown versions of goldies with the opportunity to spend many £ on kit for them ... I wonder how many people would prefer the cuddly toy option if they fully realised what the dainty little golden creature in the tiny bag was going to turn into and that they should be preparing to spend a lot of £ to accomodate it for at least the next 20 years ...  I also wonder how many of the fish won on the same day as Howie are still alive ...
> 
> image


what a fantastic image. do you mind if i use this on 2 aquatics facebook pages i use? want to make sure rather than just copy and paste  howie is awesome, and i love the true to life picture with that :censor: bowl beside him. 

i dread to think how many of howies little buddys ended up dead/dying/flushed within a week of the fair. i guess some could be 'lucky' enough to last a bit longer but i bet nearly all ended up in awful conditions before giving up. hes a stunning goldfish :flrt:


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## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Brilliant picture, this should be displayed in pet shops also.


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## INJAF (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks for the positive comments  

@ goldie1212 - certainly you may use the pic, would also be interested in links to the FB groups in question  Will drop you a pm too, have some more info you might be interested in.

As for displaying it in pet shops ... well, you know, I have a dream ...


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## INJAF (Nov 12, 2011)

Bit of thread necromancy here but I've just discovered, courtesy of Miss P on PFK (although I've not actually investigated myself but Miss P has always been reliable in the past), that in Scotland it's illegal to give animals as prizes, including goldfish at fairs. Wouldn't it be nice if English law followed suit ...


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

INJAF said:


> Bit of thread necromancy here but I've just discovered, courtesy of Miss P on PFK (although I've not actually investigated myself but Miss P has always been reliable in the past), that in Scotland it's illegal to give animals as prizes, including goldfish at fairs. Wouldn't it be nice if English law followed suit ...


What a surprise, Scotland does something better than England.


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## MattsZoo (Oct 27, 2011)

Jumping on a little late , but this was happening at the bonfire display I went to aswell, and for as long as I have been going I always remember people walking round with goldfish in a small plastic bag with a knot in and cheap, tiny plastic tubs sold for £5 to house the fish! Never gone near the stall myself, but this year the man on the stall was actually bellowing out "Win a goldfish, only a pound!" It's just cruel, and like others have said, police and community support officers are spread about around the display, yet they do nothing about it! :devil:


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

Goldie,

I havent read anything past your first post of the thread....all i am going to say is, save your concern and worries for the fish keepers who claim to be serious but still have no clue and won't listen..

the people selling will never change what they do b/c of you, and all your doing is stressing yourself out and ruining nights out for you. The guy selling wouldnt care what you did, he would be down the pub the night after laughing about you.

I know it is pretty hard to "turn off" from these things but end of the day no matter what fuss you cause, very little, if nothing, will happen.

I remember a thread from you about some fish in a pub. fair play, but again, it ruined what was an evening out for you and it will not change peoples minds.

I'd deffo say try your hardest to advise, but dont get "involved" in cases such as this as the only person on the bad side of anything is you mate.

Hope you understand where I am coming form on this

Peace.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

erm, if everyone gives up like you say, no, nothing will get done. it would ruin my day to not do anything to help and stand back and let it carry on. at least i put across my opinions. i dont care if people stand back and laugh at me, if they wish to be so heartless and uncaring then fair dos to them, im not interested in them. 

oh, and the pub goldfish thread wasnt me, i dont drink, and we dont even have a pub where we are :lol2:


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

meh well thats cool. do as you wish i cannot stop you. but i just feel that if people are going to get upset over others ignorance and let it ruin their time then maybe it isnt worth worrying over. just my opinion though eh? I tried a few years back many different ways in many different situations and all that i achieved was a ban from 2 local shops for a while.

I'd rather focus my time on those who want to learn and try to provide best and give advice to them. I dont really have the time to argue over such things anymore either so perhaps thats part of it


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Frase said:


> meh well thats cool. do as you wish i cannot stop you. but i just feel that if people are going to get upset over others ignorance and let it ruin their time then maybe it isnt worth worrying over. just my opinion though eh? I tried a few years back many different ways in many different situations and all that i achieved was a ban from 2 local shops for a while.
> 
> I'd rather focus my time on those who want to learn and try to provide best and give advice to them. I dont really have the time to argue over such things anymore either so perhaps thats part of it


Frase, will all due respect, just because you didn't achieve your objectives does not mean that others will not achieve theirs.


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

I achieve the objectives that matter realistically to me mynki 

just because i am extremely tired and a bit frustrated with some uni work, ill see how we get on with this (sorry for the hijack)

If everybody kept fish and reps CORRECTLY providing the requirements we all desire to tell them about....Would you say that we would still have so many pet shops? Or would it be slightly more realisitic to say that it would put people out of jobs...especially in the hard times we face?

Answer or ignore it. I don't mind. I just enjoy having some points of view on these kinna discussions 

I'd say we deffo would not have so many pet shops about which in turn would not be helpful to many who would lose there job....morally, false info and bad selling is a huge no no...even to me....but many proven theoriesw show that money makes the world go round no?

Havent been on these sites for a while so its nice to throw one in there (I am often working alone in my office for 8.5hrs a day hahahahah)


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Frase said:


> If everybody kept fish and reps CORRECTLY providing the requirements we all desire to tell them about....Would you say that we would still have so many pet shops? Or would it be slightly more realisitic to say that it would put people out of jobs...especially in the hard times we face?
> 
> Answer or ignore it. I don't mind. I just enjoy having some points of view on these kinna discussions


Keeping reps and fish correctly requires pending considerably more money, so who knows. Besides, I don't think anything that protects the welfare of animals should be delayed or abandoned because it will put people out of jobs.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

It really is time to put a stop to it and the irony is they could buy a goldfish for less than it costs to win one in most cases.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Frase said:


> I achieve the objectives that matter realistically to me mynki
> 
> just because i am extremely tired and a bit frustrated with some uni work, ill see how we get on with this (sorry for the hijack)
> 
> ...


Not sure why you think I'd duck this one Frase. But I'll answer your question and then go a couple of steps further.

Without the ignorance of many keepers, particularly newbies, all aquatic businesses would lose revenue. Inevitablly this will lead to job losses for sure. Without doubt.

On a personal level, without the aquatics trade, I'd own fewer investment properties, and live in a smaller house. I wouldn't be taking delivery of a brand new Merc convertible next week and I wouldn't be able to take the holidays I do. In times of economic hardship and global recession, some of us are doing OK and all because of the aquatics industry. Yep, my living is funded in some small part by ignorant keepers.

Thats the reason that I'm going to be investing both my time and money in INJAF. 

Is that enough openess and honesty for you?


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## Pirate7 (Apr 7, 2008)

I agree, it should be stopped. I could have thought it was Illegal with the Animal Health Act 06? RSPCA are crap if its not got fur they don't care.

It is so frustrating, fish are some of the most abused animals in captivity - yet rescue places like RSPCA don't give two craps about it! :/


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

Mynki,

It is refreshing to know that the recession isnt hitting us all as hard as it is others.

I never doubted you would not put an opinion across against my discussion, if i did, i wouldnt waste time asking.

It was a genuine question to which I wanted genuine answers, and you've given one which is great.

Like i said in that post with the question, i dont find so much time for forums anymore so when i do i like to have a good debate with people who are knowledgable in such scenarios (none of my uni friends would attempt to answer, just laugh it off)

INJAF, is that the guy who created that awesome picture on this thread? Amazing stunning fish that is and the picture hits home....theres a similar one that floats around shelled, a baby YBS sat on top of an adult.

I'd love to see it has worked and retracts people from impulse or spur buying but i cant help feel it will not stop the inevitable.

Its nice to hear someone heavily involved in the trade is taking such a scheme on board sowell and offering assistance. 

@ M Freeman - you might be slightly opposed to that PoV if it affected you or your family

PS: I dont have any involvement in aquatic trades nor do anyone i personally know, I just think that there is always a "bigger picture" that needs to be seen and I personally, would not put a fishs health anf fortune against that of a deserving, hard working humans.

Peace.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Frase said:


> Mynki,
> 
> It is refreshing to know that the recession isnt hitting us all as hard as it is others.
> 
> ...


Fixed it for you. INJAF is the co founding member along with myself. Though we have a mountain range to climb next year.....


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

I do indeed stand correct. Sorry injaf. Havent read anything to put your gender into context, just saw your fish/tank picture 

PS: If your launching such schemes to prevent bad impulse buys, then please send Graham (shelled mod) a msg as his turtle/slider pic would be extremely helpful in a few shops :whistling2:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I would not be opposed to that view if it affected my family, just as I wouldn't if my family made a living from fox hunting.

Why are people always hard working and deserving? They might be lazy, no good wastes of space for all you know.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Mynki said:


> I wouldn't be taking delivery of a brand new Merc convertible next week and I wouldn't be able to take the you?


Hardly a Vectra Sri is it? :whistling2:


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

MF - I said i wouldnt put it againt that of a hardworking individual. I never said every man and his dog.

I guess its your choice, if you would rather ensure a goldfish is sorted opposed to seeing your family living then stick to your PoV  we all have different priotites in life...that being said, my prioritythis weekend is to catch my first fish from my winter syndicate :devil::devil: sneaky carps avoiding me


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Frase said:


> MF - I said i wouldnt put it againt that of a hardworking individual. I never said every man and his dog.
> 
> I guess its your choice, if you would rather ensure a goldfish is sorted opposed to seeing your family living then stick to your PoV  we all have different priotites in life...that being said, my prioritythis weekend is to catch my first fish from my winter syndicate :devil::devil: sneaky carps avoiding me


Well it's not as simple as that, my position is simply "but this might mean people lose their jobs" isn't the best defence for not pursuing a more ethical way of doing business. Saving every goldfish isn't achievable in my opinion, but I'd actively encourage retailers and suppliers to stop selling goldfish bowls and small tanks with goldfish images on them. If businesses can't adapt to this simple change, then I'm going to have to say that's too bad.


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

Did you watch that thing on tele? This is britain or watever. They looked at junkmail...how everyone hates it, yet things we use daily and such the royal mail depend on it. I would not condone ill treating or keeping of any animal (except maybe cats...i'm allergic) but in the same sense i have to appreciate the money that is turned over due to the poor buys. Granted good setups cost a fair bit but they last a longtime. Impulse buys and fish deaths keep everything ticking over. Again, not saying its ethical but t'is life.

With regards to the packaging showing fish, I can see where you come from with that. It would be nice, but again, isnt always the retailers option. If the manufacturers wrapping has it then theres little that can be done really.

Lets also be fair, if it wasnt for the impulse buyers, we wouldnt all feel so good about ourselves and how great we are at keeping our animals :Na_Na_Na_Na:

when we getting pictures of your new live tank then?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I'd argue back that this is what's causing postal delays with royal mail, and if it stopped there would be a better service and more people would be inclined to use it :lol2:

Just waiting on deliveries! It's currently a grow out tank for emersed/emerged aquatic plants so I need somewhere to move them first. I'm still sort of planning it in my head atm!


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

in your head is no good...trust me i can tell from the first comment of your previous post :Na_Na_Na_Na:

throw it on paper my man. then the world can assist

With regards to your argument back...without junkmail, the Royal Mail would become more expensive as its a huge chunk of their daily post and at the end of all the people sending this mail probably cannot afford to advertise themselves in any other way thus meaning by stopping it, it would have an adverse affect on other businesses involved also.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Hey! :lol2:

RFUK is my paper!


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

thats that sorted then lol

sorry to sidetrack from OP


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Well it's not as simple as that, my position is simply "but this might mean people lose their jobs" isn't the best defence for not pursuing a more ethical way of doing business. Saving every goldfish isn't achievable in my opinion, but I'd actively encourage retailers and suppliers to stop selling goldfish bowls and small tanks with goldfish images on them. If businesses can't adapt to this simple change, then I'm going to have to say that's too bad.


The aquatics industry has been around for a long time. It will still be here in the next one hundred years I'm sure. Remember, man has exploited flora and fauna since the dawn of time almost, and he'll continue to do so.

The aquatics industry like every other industry is competitive, it has driven workaholics and lazy arsed individuals in it. It has an ethical side and an unethical side. 

It is my belief that it has become more ethical in recent times. Captive bred marine fish are just one example. But it could do more. The unethical side of the industry could be likened to the illegal drug industry. You'll never, ever stop it. Never! There is too much money at stake. The only hope society has against the drugs trade is to educate kiddies so they understand the harm the drug trade causes and limit it through education. It's the same with goldfish bowls, everyone can make money selling them. People often don't see anything wrong with them. So the only hope we have is to educate people and reduce the amount of unethical practises within the industry.

There are various areas we plan to target. I believe we have realistic expectations of what we can and cannot do. Long term goals include registered charitable status to aid our credability and to support financially and raise awareness of organisations such as fish rehoming centers and one or two very worthy environmental projects we are aware of. 

I did used to sell Interpet gold fish bowl filters some time ago. Along with a couple of other products I see as unethical, I've binned them since. I don't know how many people can dissuaded from selling them in the future, but if we can stop people buying them and choosing a more ethical aquarium and more suitable fish choices then that can only be a good thing IMHO.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Well, you no doubt know way more about the industry than me, given that I've been interested in fish for about a year.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Well, you no doubt know way more about the industry than me, given that I've been interested in fish for about a year.


Quality motors too. :Na_Na_Na_Na: :lol2:

I worked at an importer aged 15. Walked in off the street and asked for a job. I worked there during the school holidays, and in an LFS at weekends when I was a teenager. I've seen a lot of changes over the last 21 years or so, some good. Some not so good. But all in all, I do think things are improving.


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

Mynki said:


> The aquatics industry has been around for a long time. It will still be here in the next one hundred years I'm sure. Remember, man has exploited flora and fauna since the dawn of time almost, and he'll continue to do so.
> 
> The aquatics industry like every other industry is competitive, it has driven workaholics and lazy arsed individuals in it. It has an ethical side and an unethical side.
> 
> ...


So, with that in mind, and your new merc...does that make you the drug dealer of the aquatics section RFUK? :gasp:


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Frase said:


> So, with that in mind, and your new merc...does that make you the drug dealer of the aquatics section RFUK? :gasp:


I do genuinely hate it when DEFRA open and inspect our boxes of imports....


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

I can imagine!! how much does it cost to get the blind eye treatment from them? :whistling2:


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Frase said:


> I can imagine!! how much does it cost to get the blind eye treatment from them? :whistling2:


Haha! 

There is loads of products / plants and fish that are rarely or never seen for sale in the UK. Plenty of $$$ opportunities for those to exploit the sales opportunity perfectly legally here.


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

well, absolutely off topic, didnt reply sooner as hit the bank all weekend. Finally managed to catch my first fish from the lake...this morning hah. Bang on 25lb mirror. Beautiful fish!!! Wish i had someone with me to get a decent piccy.


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