# Killer whale kills trainer



## vonnie (Aug 20, 2007)

BBC News - Whale kills SeaWorld trainer during Orlando show

I struggle to feel much sympathy really. A whale should not be performing tricks like this in this day and age, surely.

Reading about all the other incidents not only is it inhumane it's also far, far too dangerous.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

considering what they do to seals in the wild, its not suprising that every now and then they kill humans....


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## Rum_Kitty (Jun 14, 2009)

THe first thing I said when I heard this was "I wonder if it was Tillikum".

Looks like I was right. That is one dangerous orca...surely THREE deaths shows people he shouldn't be where he is??? There are few animals I downright disagree with being kept captive under any circumstances, but cetaceans are one of them. They are just too large to adequately care for in captivity, IMO. These animals are lethal. And they belong in the wild IMO, not jumping through hoops for dead fish.

Feed bad for the trainer. Feel bad for Tillikum, and Lolita, and all the other poor orcas like them. :bash:


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## dannyj (Jan 23, 2007)

no way the shamu show is absolutly amazing to watch, my little girl loved it and still has to watch it from the video camera everyday

how horrific though, such a shame for the woman and the whale


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## Rum_Kitty (Jun 14, 2009)

Perhaps you enjoyed it...but I'm not so sure the orcas like their big fish bowl.


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

what i surprise not

theres loads of videos on youtube of killer whales attacking trainers in these parks and also in the one in tenireef altho not a seaworld i trainer was killed there late last year


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

*killer *whale *kills*


not exactly the most shocking headline i've read.


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## danielle101 (May 8, 2008)

I for one love Orca's and i believe they just shouldnt be where they are, they deserve to be free with there familys/pods, not in a fish tank, and i also had a feeling it was tilikum, maybe he is bored with his usual life, swim in circles, eating dead fish, jumping through hoops and wants to know what else is out there for him...

Sorry for the greenpeace talk but i feel bad for animals such as Tilikum and all the other Orca's kept in captivity...


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

danielle101 said:


> I for one love Orca's and i believe they just shouldnt be where they are, they deserve to be free with there familys/pods, not in a fish tank, and i also had a feeling it was tilikum, maybe he is bored with his usual life, swim in circles, eating dead fish, jumping through hoops and wants to know what else is out there for him...
> 
> Sorry for the greenpeace talk but i feel bad for animals such as Tilikum and all the other Orca's kept in captivity...


I totally agree.
There is no place for those types of animals in captivity in this day and age.
He should be freed to live out a natural life in the wild.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

And me! I just look at the size of the whales and the pools they are in and think they must go stir crazy in there every day of their lives - it's no wonder something goes wrong - what is to wonder is that it doesn't happen more often.

I went to see them when I was in Florida many years ago and halfway through the routine, they just stopped performing and went down to the bottom of their pond (I say 'pond' deliberately!!). Nothing the trainers could do would get them back up to finish their performance.

I was actually glad to see this, because it meant they did have some sort of choice in whether to perform or not, but that doesn't make it right!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I feel very sorry for the family of the lady who died, but I feel sorriest for the whales in that glorified circus.

When I listened to the statement from the park on the news, heard the man say they cared very much about the animals happiness. Not enough to stop keeping them in ponds, though! Not enough to stop using them as performances animals to make them some money!

Idiots. THIS is what happens when you mess with nature. I think the whale would have done a lot better had it snapped up the park owner instead...


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## Kerriebaby (May 12, 2009)

the idea of whales and dolphins being in "buckets of water" has never sat right with me. They are not dogs, they are not domestic, they are wild animal. I don't believe that these animals can be catered for in captivity.

Ever since the Free Willy films and the cock up they made of trying to released him back into the wild, the idea appals me. (poor Keiko)

Im sorry that this trainer has been killed, but this surely should come as a wake up call to all those places keeping these animals like this. Its wrong.

Ditto I wonder if the "swim with dolphins" tours ever has any accidents like this that we are not told of?!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Considering he's attacked several times before and killed at least one other person, you'd think they might have noticed he's not a happy whale, and wouldn't have him on active duty any more.

Bloody ridiculous - if he were a dog he'd be seized and put to sleep, but being a killer whale makes that a bit hard, so instead they carry on putting him under stress and their keepers in danger.

They should be closed down.


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## Antw23uk (Jan 12, 2009)

The thing is what do you do with this animal? You cant release an animal back into the wild knowing it has NO fear of humans and indeed goes out his way to attack them. It would be too dangerous.

I agree with others, there are some animals you can keep in captivity but killer whales and the like are not one of them.

Unfortunatley this will continue to happen if people continue to pay to see them in these enviroments. Supply and demand unfortunatly :bash:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Yeah once they're in captivity then that's it, you cant release them again. But I dont think that breeding from a whale that's attacked/killed people and still using him in displays/active training is very responsible either.


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## Antw23uk (Jan 12, 2009)

Agreed its incredibly irresponsible and i im not defending them BUT they have this animal swimming around a 'bowl' getting more and more stir crazy so i guess they have to do 'something' with him to keep him occupied, stimulated etc. 

As far as i can find out they were never allowed in the water with him because if his bad rep so this poor women was just unlucky that she got too close and he was in that kind of state of mind!


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## rach666 (Dec 12, 2006)

yeh theres his new tank till they figuire out what to do.
sad.

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto..._325571682097_541567097_3795711_1292580_n.jpg


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## becky89 (Nov 24, 2009)

I feel bad for the trainer and their family, and the whale itself, but what do you expect when you're dealing with a wild animal of this size?


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

Don't know what all the fuss is about, it's only a fish..:whistling2:


















(ducks..)


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Antw23uk said:


> The thing is what do you do with this animal? You cant release an animal back into the wild knowing it has NO fear of humans and indeed goes out his way to attack them. It would be too dangerous.


no, it'd be natural. Wild animal, no fear of humans etc... 

that's nature for you.


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## Marcia (Aug 23, 2009)

Caz said:


> Don't know what all the fuss is about, it's only a fish..:whistling2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you mean mammal, not fish.

It's bloody cruel to keep such a large animal in that 'bucket' sized tank :bash: What did they expect?

Also, despite many misconceptions Tillikum has not killed three people, he is known for being aggressive but it is Ky who was in the news in the last few years for injuring a trainer, Tillikum has not.


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## FreddiesMum (Jan 10, 2007)

Poor whale stuck in a p*ss poor pond :bash: Such stunning animals they should not be kept in captivity for the amusement of humans


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

Marcia said:


> *I think you mean mammal, not fish.*
> 
> *It's bloody cruel to keep such a large animal in that 'bucket' sized tank* :bash: What did they expect?
> 
> Also, despite many misconceptions Tillikum has not killed three people, he is known for being aggressive but it is Ky who was in the news in the last few years for injuring a trainer, Tillikum has not.


Twasa joke re fish..:bash:

And there seems to be people living in greenhouses throwing stones in this thread.


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## xvickyx (Jul 21, 2009)

danielle101 said:


> I for one love Orca's and i believe they just shouldnt be where they are, they deserve to be free with there familys/pods, not in a fish tank, and i also had a feeling it was tilikum, maybe he is bored with his usual life, swim in circles, eating dead fish, jumping through hoops and wants to know what else is out there for him...
> 
> Sorry for the greenpeace talk but i feel bad for animals such as Tilikum and all the other Orca's kept in captivity...


I totally agree, they belong in the wild, they are just too large to be in captivity! Makes me feel sad for them, such a shame.

Feel bad for the trainers death, but feel even worse for the poor Orca.

He is only doing what is natural for him, to kill, thats what they do! and like someone else said, maybe he is bored swimming in circles in his fish bowl!!

*FREE WILLY I SAY!!!*


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

That's what happens when you stick a brain that big in a bowl that small.I'm sure there are days they like doing tricks for food.But also there are days they just want food.And if a keeper keeps on forcing them to do thing when they'd rather not it surely pi:censor:'s them off.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

shouldnt all animals be in the wild in their natural habitat? not sayin it to start an arguement but more a debate. why is it acceptable to keep one animal in a zoo, or even as a pet but not another? providin it is catered for adequately enough? (and im not sayin these tanks were adequate enough as they are far too small imo)
someone earlier said its not a domesticated animal, like a dog..... dogs were wild once.... 

as i said, i dont agree with the whale being kept in something so small but i do believe if its not unfair on one animal to be kept in captivity, be it in a zoo or in a home, then its not unfair on any kind of animal..... does that make sense?


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

It does - kind of! But the problem, I think, with whales that you maybe don't have with other wild animals is the sheer vastness of the areas where they live - they swim for miles and migrate miles. 

And yet they are expected to be happy in what is little more than a pond.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

feorag said:


> It does - kind of! But the problem, I think, with whales that you maybe don't have with other wild animals is the sheer vastness of the areas where they live - they swim for miles and migrate miles.
> 
> And yet they are expected to be happy in what is little more than a pond.


yeah i appreciate that eileen, i do, and as i say, if they can be accomodated for adequately then i dont see why they shouldnt be kept. im sure rats cover a vast area in the wild, a lot more than even the largest of rat cages


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

swimming in circles for twenty years... sounds nice....:whistling2:


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

The problem with this whale is that freeing it could well result in its death due to being in captivity for too long. There is no guarantee that it will be accepted into a pod, or even have the required survival skills to make it in the big wide world.

This whale obviously has a psychological problem with being in captivity and interacting with humans the way it is expected to.

Transfer to a sanctuary or park where it won't be bothered other than checking on its well being might be its best bet, but its a case of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted- these animals should never be made captive in the first place.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Dolphins, including the Orca have the largest brain of any none human mammal and I really dont think they get enough stimulation in captivity let alone space so I would imagine their lives in captivity are very sad and boring which eventually turns them a bit stir crazy


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*It seems it was her ponytail that was part of the cause:*

Killer whale to be spared as ponytail blamed for trainer death - Telegraph


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## Marcia (Aug 23, 2009)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> *It seems it was her ponytail that was part of the cause:*
> 
> Killer whale to be spared as ponytail blamed for trainer death - Telegraph


That's something at least.


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## Rum_Kitty (Jun 14, 2009)

Marcia said:


> I think you mean mammal, not fish.
> 
> It's bloody cruel to keep such a large animal in that 'bucket' sized tank :bash: What did they expect?
> 
> Also, despite many misconceptions Tillikum has not killed three people, he is known for being aggressive but it is Ky who was in the news in the last few years for injuring a trainer, Tillikum has not.


Tilikum was one two implicated in a previous trainer death. Also, some daftie snuck into his pool one night, they found him draped over the orca the following morning. Obviously a Darwin award in the making (and in fact the guy did get a Darwin award), but it did happen.

I think the difference between orcas and rats is that you can't really let an orca out of its tank for a change of environment, and the sheer size and intelligence of them. Plus, as we have just found out...they are lethal.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> shouldnt all animals be in the wild in their natural habitat? not sayin it to start an arguement but more a debate. why is it acceptable to keep one animal in a zoo, or even as a pet but not another? providin it is catered for adequately enough? (and im not sayin these tanks were adequate enough as they are far too small imo)
> someone earlier said its not a domesticated animal, like a dog..... dogs were wild once....
> 
> as i said, i dont agree with the whale being kept in something so small but i do believe if its not unfair on one animal to be kept in captivity, be it in a zoo or in a home, then its not unfair on any kind of animal..... does that make sense?


Orcas shouldn't be kept coz in that manner as there high order mammals like Great apes,Elephants,And humans.There brain it to big for such a life.

We have Rat's,Dogs,Cats'etc and yes there inteligent but compaired to a high order mammal there nothing.We let our Pets out either out side or around a indoor building'etc.So they get new smells,stimulation'etc day to day.The captive Orcas,Dolphins just get a life of routine over and over same thing differant day and the same walls to look at.

I think it's fair to say you can put in the same league as a human prisoner being locked in a cell for life.Then being asked to touch a ball if he/she wants some food.How mad in the head would the drive you.

They are not in captivity for conservation it's for money do trick for human pleaser.There not breeding Orcas,Dolphins for the future of the species.

Keeping Great apes,Elephants,are ok in zoo's as long as the goal is conservation.And there left to there own with minimal human contact so they can do what Great apes and Elephants do.But such places as sea world is all about human contact lots of it so they learn there tricks.The best place to breed whales of any type is in the wild as in most seas there safe.


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## Mrs Mental (May 5, 2009)

If the poor Orca hadn't been there it wouldn't have happened :devil::devil: 

Why cant we just leave well alone and enjoy animals in their natural environment and give them the respect they deserve :devil::devil:

Humans are doing a fabulous job of really buggering up the world arent they? Why? Greed :censor::censor:


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## samurai (Sep 9, 2009)

Mrs Mental said:


> If the poor Orca hadn't been there it wouldn't have happened :devil::devil:
> 
> Why cant we just leave well alone and enjoy animals in their natural environment and give them the respect they deserve :devil::devil:
> 
> Humans are doing a fabulous job of really buggering up the world arent they? Why? Greed :censor::censor:


 
You keep pets how can you justify that statement? 

i saw one guy talking about this incident on you tube, who was talking complete rubbish and said they would probably isolate the whale :devil: what a miserable life for a social animal, better off pts than alone in a tank for the rest of his life. this is really sad for the whale, i don't really care about the trainer or staff, maybe one day they will learn their lesson that whales are not good as captives.


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## gravitation (Nov 4, 2009)

While i agree that animals should not be put to work to entertain people i'm going to hold back on the subject, especially since i'm no orca expert but i do feel it to be a bit ironic that the keepers of lizards, monitors, and large snakes are stamping their feet for the whales release.

After all, we are keeping such species for OUR own entertainment, to learn about them and because we have a love of animals.

The space issue is an important one but when i think about how much room my beardies would have in central australia compared to the room they have in their large tanks at home with me i don't see a huge difference. Whales cover more water obviously but the money that they gain often goes into better setups for their animals.

I find their whale shows to be a bit distasteful, but i believe training these animals is also an attempt to learn from them and to simulate them, much like what they do with the seals. Working with wild animals can be dangerous, i'm sure the trainer acknowledged this early on in her career. I would think that because the whale has been captive for so long to try and release the orca would be a tad hard on him, he hasn't had to fend for himself or find his own food in what 27 years?

Just reminding people that while i do prefer the study an animal in it's habitat approach there is alot of important stuff we would'nt know without having had them in captivity before.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Releasing Tilikum probably wouldn't be any more successful than releasing Keiko... they didn't do "Willy" any favours by setting him free.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

gravitation said:


> Just reminding people that while i do prefer the study an animal in it's habitat approach there is alot of important stuff we would'nt know without having had them in captivity before.


I don't think learning from captive animals is any use at all, their behaviours and mental state are often entirely different to those of their wild relatives. You can't study a captive whale in a tank and then apply that knowledge to wild whales in a pod. 

Captive whales, especially orcas, have a hugely reduced life expectancy once in captivity. Most die within a couple of years. Breeding programmes fail because young females never got to learn mothering skills from their own families. You just should not be allowed to take a wild orca from its family and lock it up- its inhumane and studies have shown that they NEVER recover from the stress and shock of it.

Also, these parks often feed the orcas the wrong diet- there are 2 types of orcas- transients and residents. Transients don't eat fish, they eat mammals, but when they are captured can you imagine the staff throwing the whales a couple of sealions a day? Or penguins? No. They are fed fish, and expected to put up with it.

Yes I know many of us keep snakes and lizards- but I make sure my animals are CB and strongly disagree with keeping WC specimens as everyday pets. These animals are born into captivity and live long lives, arguably much much longer than could be expected in the wild, and breeding is normally fairly successful. 

There is a massive difference between keeping a CB reptile in a tank, and keeping a WC whale in tank.


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## gravitation (Nov 4, 2009)

SexyBear77 said:


> I don't think learning from captive animals is any use at all, their behaviours and mental state are often entirely different to those of their wild relatives. You can't study a captive whale in a tank and then apply that knowledge to wild whales in a pod.


That's sort of rubbish, all of my reptiles display the same little idiosyncrasies as those observed in the wild, tail luring, head bobbing.. you name it.

But i didn't post to argue, that was my opinion stated.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

gravitation said:


> That's sort of rubbish, all of my reptiles display the same little idiosyncrasies as those observed in the wild, tail luring, head bobbing.. you name it.
> 
> But i didn't post to argue, that was my opinion stated.


Did I not mention whales in my post? :bash:


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## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

Havnt read the whole thread so sorry if repeating anything but
3 people!?maybe its about time they realise he's NOT happy and should be released. 
what are they going to do pass him on to another zoo again? 
I dont really feel that sorry for the trainer, i feel sorry for telly, after all this they are still treating him the same and expecting him to do tricks 

its not as if he can say how un-happy and frustrated he is, animals have to use the ways they know how....


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

You cant just release a whale, he'll die in the wild now. IMO he'd be better off pts, but how the hell they'd do that for a whale I dont know.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> You cant just release a whale, he'll die in the wild now. IMO he'd be better off pts, but how the hell they'd do that for a whale I dont know.


Its harsh but i agree with this. He will be too human friendly and be an easy catch for whalers etc. These animals should be in the wild not in a large fish tank.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Thing is, he didn't kill the trainer because he was "angry" at her and he very likely didn't MEAN to kill her, nor was he necessarily unhappy.

Dolphins - including orcas - play rough. They rake with their jaws, they slap each other, they body-check each other... he may just have been trying to play with the trainer, and does not understand how fragile people are. 

No, keeping him in "solitary confinement" is not right, and if they cannot work around and find a way to let him stay with the other orcas *and* keep their employees safe, it might well be kinder to euthanise him.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

selina20 said:


> Its harsh but i agree with this. He will be too human friendly and be an easy catch for whalers etc. These animals should be in the wild not in a large fish tank.


Orcas are not on whaling quotas, its illegal to catch them. The biggest problems will be social skills and hunting for food. There is no guarantee that the whale will ever be accepted by another pod, and as herd animals that could be disastrous.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

SexyBear77 said:


> Orcas are not on whaling quotas, its *illegal* to catch them. The biggest problems will be social skills and hunting for food. There is no guarantee that the whale will ever be accepted by another pod, and as herd animals that could be disastrous.


When did that stop anyone?


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

selina20 said:


> When did that stop anyone?


It doesn't, but there is little gain to be had from hunting an illegal quarry- you can't sell it, use it and if caught you're in deep :censor: Why would you go out to hunt an orca when you could hunt something legal and make profit from it?

Hence, orcas are very rarely actively hunted by commercial whalers. The odd "nuisance" whale might be shot by fishermen etc, but on the whole, orcas are *not* under threat from whaling.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

SexyBear77 said:


> It doesn't, but there is little gain to be had from hunting an illegal quarry- you can't sell it, use it and if caught you're in deep :censor: Why would you go out to hunt an orca when you could hunt something legal and make profit from it?
> 
> Hence, orcas are very rarely actively hunted by commercial whalers. The odd "nuisance" whale might be shot by fishermen etc, but on the whole, orcas are *not* under threat from whaling.


Taken from a website:


> The first records of commercial hunting of killer whales date back to the 1700s in Japan. During the 19th and early 20th centuries, the global whaling industry harvested immense numbers of baleen and sperm whales, but largely ignored killer whales because of their limited amounts of recoverable oil, their smaller populations, and the difficulty that whalers had in capturing them.[66] Once the stocks of larger species were depleted, killer whales were targeted by commercial whalers in the mid twentieth century. Between 1954 and 1997, Japan took 1,178 killer whales and Norway took 987.[105] Over 3,000 killer whales were taken by Soviet whalers,[106] including an Antarctic catch of 906 in 1979 and 1980 alone, prompting the International Whaling Commission to recommend a ban on commercial hunting of the species pending further research.[105] *Today, no country carries out a substantial hunt, although Indonesia and Greenland permit small subsistence hunts.*


Given the ease of how he could be caught im sure some dodgy person will attempt to catch to sell on a black market.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Under threat means that serious damage can/is being caused by hunting activities, sometimes leading to IUCN red list status.

Small subsistence hunts aren't putting the killer whales under threat.


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## Mrs Mental (May 5, 2009)

samurai said:


> You keep pets how can you justify that statement?


Yes I do keep pets but I dont make them do tricks or charge people to see them etc etc., Also mine are all kept in better conditions than the poor whales (their environments are way way too small)


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## gravitation (Nov 4, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Thing is, he didn't kill the trainer because he was "angry" at her and he very likely didn't MEAN to kill her, nor was he necessarily unhappy.
> 
> Dolphins - including orcas - play rough. They rake with their jaws, they slap each other, they body-check each other... he may just have been trying to play with the trainer, and does not understand how fragile people are.
> 
> No, keeping him in "solitary confinement" is not right, and if they cannot work around and find a way to let him stay with the other orcas *and* keep their employees safe, it might well be kinder to euthanise him.


Agree'd.



selina20 said:


> When did that stop anyone?


Also agree'd.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

SexyBear77 said:


> Under threat means that serious damage can/is being caused by hunting activities, sometimes leading to IUCN red list status.
> 
> Small subsistence hunts aren't putting the killer whales under threat.


That wasnt my point. My point being if he was released he would be an easy catch for poachers.


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

At the end of the day, Animals all round the world are kept in sub standard cages, ponds ect and used for the publics entertainment, it becomes BAD when its bought to our attention and the animal isnt the keepers bessie mate any more and behaves NATURALLY not as a show monkey. Eveyone gets on their high horse and says this animal shouldnt be kept there ect ect, How many of us have been to zoos, were feeding time is an attraction and we pay a small fortune to get in and the poor lions are in an enclosure the size of my garden.... :bash: It will always be done but no body says anything until something like this happens, its sad but hey, what would you prefer a dog eating your shoe or a whale eating your trainer (SORRY)


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

selina20 said:


> That wasnt my point. My point being if he was released he would be an easy catch for poachers.


Yes he would, but no one tried poaching Keiko.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

SexyBear77 said:


> Yes he would, but no one tried poaching Keiko.


Thats because the area where he was released was heavily guarded.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Mrs Mental said:


> Yes I do keep pets but I dont make them do tricks or charge people to see them etc etc., Also mine are all kept in better conditions than the poor whales (their environments are way way too small)


Dogs particularly are not, in my opinion, often kept in "optimal" conditions. I personally do not think anyone should ever have ONE dog. They are social animals that require social interaction that, for example, someone who is away at work (for however long) cannot provide. 

I don't see a problem with charging for performances, and teaching animals to perform behaviours in order to be rewarded is beneficial to the animal - it gives them something to "do". The dolphins I have met seemed to genuinely enjoy interacting with people and performing various behaviours - as long as they were also free to decide NOT to perform those behaviours. 

My cats are learning to be indoor cats, and providing them with toys that require them to think and perform new behaviours in order to get treats is one of the ways we're teaching them that indoors isn't so bad. They have both today figured out how to use the treat ball - roll it over, goodies fall out. Everyone wins. They're not tearing up the walls, so I win. They're getting tasty snacks, so they win.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Lol, no one is even talking of releasing this flippin' whale!!! :bash:


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

SexyBear77 said:


> Lol, no one is even talking of releasing this flippin' whale!!! :bash:


Thats because hes not a film star


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## Mrs Mental (May 5, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Dogs particularly are not, in my opinion, often kept in "optimal" conditions. I personally do not think anyone should ever have ONE dog. They are social animals that require social interaction that, for example, someone who is away at work (for however long) cannot provide.
> 
> I don't see a problem with charging for performances, and teaching animals to perform behaviours in order to be rewarded is beneficial to the animal - it gives them something to "do". The dolphins I have met seemed to genuinely enjoy interacting with people and performing various behaviours - as long as they were also free to decide NOT to perform those behaviours.
> 
> My cats are learning to be indoor cats, and providing them with toys that require them to think and perform new behaviours in order to get treats is one of the ways we're teaching them that indoors isn't so bad. They have both today figured out how to use the treat ball - roll it over, goodies fall out. Everyone wins. They're not tearing up the walls, so I win. They're getting tasty snacks, so they win.


 
You've made some very valid points 

Dogwise - I have two plus I am at home 

As for choosing when the animals want to perform...........what would happen if the seal/dolphin/whale choose not to perform when it was supposed to? Do they not get fed or do they get ignored or anything? I genuinely don't know.

I don't have a problem with conservation/educational places if the animals are kept in near as optimal conditions as possible with the space to allow them to act as naturally as possible. The problem I have is when a human wants to impose human ways/tricks/performance skills onto the animal or when a human thinks they can think like an animal or when the human thinks the animal can think like a human.

For instance my two dogs are pretty well behaved, their recall is first rate, they will both drop and leave food when told, they will wait, sit, leave, down etc on first command BUT they are still dogs and I would not ever think I know them 100% or that I could guarantee their exact behaviour - they are animals and I am a human and we think differently. For me that is one of the most foundamental mistakes a lot of people make, they think they can think like animals and they cant.

The thing that always upsets me about the whales is the size of their enclosures, they appear to be way way too small and to me that is an act of cruelty.

Catwise - my Mum has two indoor cats and I've never been able to decide whether it seems a little mean to not allow them to go outside - I don't know an awful lot about cats or what their natural behaviour etc would be so I couldn't tell you if they miss out on anything through not going outside.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Mrs Mental said:


> As for choosing when the animals want to perform...........what would happen if the seal/dolphin/whale choose not to perform when it was supposed to? Do they not get fed or do they get ignored or anything? I genuinely don't know.


If the whale won't perform the action on command the trainers are taught to give them a lesser, different command/action, and when the whales do it they are rewarded. This way, each session is supposed to end on a good note.

However, there have been reported cases of trainers completely ignoring this and negatively reinforcing the whales by completely ignoring them when they don't perform a command and withholding the reward until the whale either gives in or gives up- in other words, the trainer is asserting full dominance over the animal.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Mrs Mental said:


> As for choosing when the animals want to perform...........what would happen if the seal/dolphin/whale choose not to perform when it was supposed to? Do they not get fed or do they get ignored or anything? I genuinely don't know.


If they choose not to perform, they might not get fed *right then* and they might get a "time out" where other animals who have performed the behaviour are given attention and they aren't - but they will *always* get their allotted ration of food for a day. They're _expensive _animals, the parks aren't going to let them starve.



> The thing that always upsets me about the whales is the size of their enclosures, they appear to be way way too small and to me that is an act of cruelty.


That I can understand. I'm not sure that it's financially viable to provide adequate housing for a fifteen+ foot long animal, let alone a breeding/social group of them. 



> Catwise - my Mum has two indoor cats and I've never been able to decide whether it seems a little mean to not allow them to go outside - I don't know an awful lot about cats or what their natural behaviour etc would be so I couldn't tell you if they miss out on anything through not going outside.


If they've NEVER been outside, then they don't know there's anything to miss out on. And in all practicality what they're missing out on is fleas, ticks, diseases from outdoor cats, being attacked by outdoor cats, being hit by cars... 

My two have been outdoor cats for all their lives (not by my choice - ex-hubby and his parents thought it was cruel to keep them in and couldn't be bothered to close doors) and in the last three weeks they've seemed *happier* than they were when they were going out. Possibly because they don't have an outdoor bully harassing them. I can also make sure they're eating properly, that they are treated for worms and fleas (and won't likely need doing again!) and ensure that they aren't harassing the neighbours, either.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Mrs Mental said:


> As for choosing when the animals want to perform...........what would happen if the seal/dolphin/whale choose not to perform when it was supposed to? Do they not get fed or do they get ignored or anything? I genuinely don't know.


As I said earlier I was there on a day when the whales decided they didn't want to perform so halfway through their routine they just swam to the bottom of their 'pond' and stayed there.

The trainers called them and whistled and they took no notice, so eventually the trainers explained that the whales obviously didn't want to perform any more that day and so they had no choice but to bring the 'show' to an end.

However, there would no doubt be another show to take place after ours, no doubt, and I've no idea what happened then, as to whether they performed the whole show or not.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Dogs particularly are not, in my opinion, often kept in "optimal" conditions. I personally do not think anyone should ever have ONE dog. They are social animals that require social interaction that, for example, someone who is away at work (for however long) cannot provide.


Not all of them are, and that's a whole other thread. Some dogs are much happier as single dogs, I know Blu is, and I'm damn sure Sky was happier on her own too lol.


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## Mrs Mental (May 5, 2009)

SexyBear, Ssthisto & Feorag

Thanks for answering my question regards the 'not performing' :2thumb:


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

LisaLQ said:


> You cant just release a whale, he'll die in the wild now. IMO he'd be better off pts, but how the hell they'd do that for a whale I dont know.


I know this isn't going happen but it is doable.They already have a pod in sea world.All they need is a couple year in a block off sea channel.
To be sure there leaning to hunt fish'etc.Only take one to lean the ways of the wild and the rest will learn from that one.

There's a pod at leat 4 other Orcas.But as usual it's all about the money.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

This is aparently amatuer footage of the Orca attacking the trainer. Don't worry, it isn't gory or bloody.

Killer Whale Kills Trainer Alleged Amateur Leaked Footage - NothingToxic.com


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*killer whale*

god,it went on and on and she came so close to getting away.What a desperate situation.I don't know anything about k.whales but I did think it looked like it could have been playing as much as attacking:sad:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Orcas are well documented to play, cat-like, with prey sometimes. I have seen footage of them throwing seals around, tossing them up into the air, even using their tail flukes to catapult seals out of the water. It is as if they are celebrating a successful hunt, or just plain having fun with their dinner before eating it.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

That looks like he's playing with her - but he's also quite clearly ignoring the signals he's being given from poolside and by the trainer.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I agree - it looks more like play than attack - I can't see any actually 'attack'.

The news footage said that he had her by the pony tail, which could clearly be seen and was pulling her about like a toy - he appears to be 'divebombing' her, as you said Colin, rather like a cat pounces on prey or a toy and then releases it.

Sadly yes, at one point he went to the side of the pool to the other trainers, but maybe he was just having too much fun and decided to go on with his game?

It certainly doesn't appear that he was trying to kill her, but that his 'game' went sadly wrong and that has to be considered when you are dealing with any large wild animal kept in captivity.


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

that film was not taken at sea world as where they where standing and where the people watching are theres no bit like that at sea world and also they dont where stuff like that looks red and black theres is black and white also the fin on that whale is diffrent to tillikums


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## *lisa* (Nov 4, 2008)

I think that is at sea world but its not the recent attack.
They used to wear red and black wet suits before the show changed to the new one they have now.
Also the attack was meant to have happened during the dine with shamu experience where you have lunch next to one of pools and the trainers talk about the whales and what not and thats not in the main stadium like on the video.


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