# Pedro - the saga goes on



## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Still battling the nitrates... but lots of people seem to insist on my previous topics that the nitrate may not be the issue, so i'm interested to hear what other options may be.


4ft clear seal tank (about 170L), 1 ehiem pickup 2012 filter, and a fluval u2 (bag of crap!). No live plants (they didn't last - snails ate them and the other fish pull the roots off) and an airstone at the back. Recently put in a heater so the tank runs at about 18.5C according to the digi thermometer.

30-50% water change done every week


Fed rarely, literally a couple times a week now with (hikari sinking pellets) fish food, twice a week with cooked shelled peas.

The other oranda is a little less active than she was, but upright and eating fine. The weather loach is fine, no change at all, active and growing and looking nice and healthy.

Pedro is constantly upside down. And he looks very swollen, i can't even remember the last time i've seen him poop (he had a reputation for going round with strings of poop coming out and looking very proud and always when we are eating). Occaisionally he perks up, he reacts if you tap on the glass and does attempt to eat sometimes, but he used to have a crazy appetite and would watch you eating your own food like he'd have it off your plate.

So for those who really think its not to do with the nitrates - any ideas? I'm going to worm him tonight and put him in the quarantine tub. He keeps perking up and i think it'll be ok, but nothing seems to be happening much now so that's my last idea i can think of! He's swollen like an egg which doesn't seem right for a fish not very interested in his food. Aside from nitrate, everything else has tested fine. Tank was cycled and has been running for well over a year.

The only time i've seen him go the right way up is when i do a 50% water change, where the level gets quite low down.... does he need to be a shallower tank or something til he recovers like to do with water pressure or something?

I was worried it may be dropsy, but his scales are normal surely by now they would have 'pine-coned'

i miss him being a little :censor: this has been going on for too long now


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## mike os (Dec 26, 2011)

what are your water paramiters?


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

mike os said:


> what are your water paramiters?



ammonia 0
nitrIte - 0
nitrAte - between 80-100ppm
ph - 7.5

my tap water has a nitrAte reading of around 60-80ppm straight out :/ but that's a whole other thread...


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

worming the whole tank rather than just Pedro... dunno why i was going to just worm him when i may as well worm the whole tank!

Apple snails now living in the spare tub lol... hope they don't crawl out can't find anything to cover it up with!


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Just sounds like swim bladder problems to me? Specially if he's bright otherwise. Sometimes partially/fully resolvable, sometimes not. 

Other thing you can try is feeding a whole/large chick pea, just big enough for him to eat. Theory being as it passes down the intestines it pushes against the swim bladder emptying it (temporarily).


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

AshMashMash said:


> image
> 
> Just sounds like swim bladder problems to me? Specially if he's bright otherwise. Sometimes partially/fully resolvable, sometimes not.
> 
> Other thing you can try is feeding a whole/large chick pea, just big enough for him to eat. Theory being as it passes down the intestines it pushes against the swim bladder emptying it (temporarily).


cool will try that, never thought of feeding chick peas - hope he'll eat it as he isn't the biggest fan of veggies, he only really eats peas, anything else green gets ignored lol

he's bright when you get his attention... otherwise he's often zoned out  guess being upside down all the time isn't a lot of fun! 

I treated with swim bladder stuff ages ago and nothing improved, but then medication can always be a bit crapola. he doesn't float though which i always thought was the main issue of swim bladder problems? hes at the bottom.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

miss_mystra said:


> cool will try that, never thought of feeding chick peas - hope he'll eat it as he isn't the biggest fan of veggies, he only really eats peas, anything else green gets ignored lol
> 
> he's bright when you get his attention... otherwise he's often zoned out  guess being upside down all the time isn't a lot of fun!
> 
> I treated with swim bladder stuff ages ago and nothing improved, but then medication can always be a bit crapola. he doesn't float though which i always thought was the main issue of swim bladder problems? hes at the bottom.


Oh... at the bottom... I half-read you first thread but not all of it. 

Erm... not sure then:lol2:


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

Could goldies get constipation issues like betta? I've no idea what the solution would be in a goldie. But in a betta it's feeding a pea as a laxative. Might be something worth looking up just in case?


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

swim bladder can cause them to be on the bottom too. its more they cant control their bouyancy rather than they get floaty. i dont know what to suggest though, the last fish i had do this was my 8" black moor, she too ballooned like a ball, and was upside down, however she was on the surface and due to air contact she got sore, so i euthanised her. its so sad, but these fish are bred to be so deformed that as they grow more and more issues can come up. 

im still battling my nitrates, however, test you tap water again, i tested mine before PWC this week and its gone from 40-60ppm out of the tap to 20-40ppm :2thumb: though saying that, the fish look worse than ever and dont seem happy so i really dont know whats going on now! i dont have my purigen in there at the moment though as it needed to be bleached so maybe thats got something to do with it. i dont know.

have you considered that pedro may infact have a tumour in him? goldfish are terrible for being prone to tumours, both internal and external. its possible he has a growth in him thats crushing him, and causing him to go downhill. sorry im not being much help


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## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

There are a few causes of 'swimbladder'.

Constipation. If the fish is unable to pass waste, the internal build up will push against the swim bladder. 
Solution: things like brine shrimp or daphnia can push through the blockage when eaten due to their shells. Other than that, I'm not sure.


Infection: the throat of the swim bladder can become infected.
Solution: make sure all water peramiters are good. Do a small water change and treat the tank with interpet anti internal infection.

Swallowed air: when food floats on top of the surface, the fish will gulp in air as well as the food.
Solution: feed sinking food, or if it's things like pellets or flakes, you should soak them in a cup of tank water until it sinks.


Try the easiest and cheapest solutions first and work your way through them like that. Hope this helps in some way


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Hi,I know what this is,It is the pressure created by the depth of the water,it is a swim bladder problem.Fancy goldfish have a body designed to live in shallow water with a large water surface.Some suffer more than others with this problem.The solution is to gradualy reduce the water depth until the fish shows signs of improvement and keep it at that depth for about 6 months.If the fish has improved sufficiently you can very gradualy start to higher the water level by about 1 inch per week,but if the fish reverts back to having problems it will have to be kept at a lower depth.You will probably have to get another tank unless you can adapt the tank you have to accomodate a much lower depth of water,probably somewhere around half what it is now.The problem is the filter etc but it is the only way to go unfortunately.

What are the dimensions of your tank?

Almost all of the swim bladder problems in fancy goldfish are because of the water depth.Their bodies cannot cope with the pressure.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> swim bladder can cause them to be on the bottom too. its more they cant control their bouyancy rather than they get floaty. i dont know what to suggest though, the last fish i had do this was my 8" black moor, she too ballooned like a ball, and was upside down, however she was on the surface and due to air contact she got sore, so i euthanised her. its so sad, but these fish are bred to be so deformed that as they grow more and more issues can come up.
> 
> im still battling my nitrates, however, test you tap water again, i tested mine before PWC this week and its gone from 40-60ppm out of the tap to 20-40ppm :2thumb: though saying that, the fish look worse than ever and dont seem happy so i really dont know whats going on now! i dont have my purigen in there at the moment though as it needed to be bleached so maybe thats got something to do with it. i dont know.
> 
> have you considered that pedro may infact have a tumour in him? goldfish are terrible for being prone to tumours, both internal and external. its possible he has a growth in him thats crushing him, and causing him to go downhill. sorry im not being much help



How would i be able to tell if it was a tumour? would it be really hard?

I popped him into a bucket for a second last night to get a closer look at him... not exactly wanting to prod and poke the poor sod but he didn't feel hard or anything, just felt normal.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Mujician said:


> There are a few causes of 'swimbladder'.
> 
> Constipation. If the fish is unable to pass waste, the internal build up will push against the swim bladder.
> Solution: things like brine shrimp or daphnia can push through the blockage when eaten due to their shells. Other than that, I'm not sure.
> ...



Always feed sinking food anyway, although he has always a bad habit of gulping the sinking stuff before its even hit the surface! but he's done that forever, and does it less now as he's not so active.

i've bought some chickpeas to give the constipation a push, if not i'll try those things you've mentioned 

Will also take a look at internal bacteria medication :2thumb:


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> Hi,I know what this is,It is the pressure created by the depth of the water,it is a swim bladder problem.Fancy goldfish have a body designed to live in shallow water with a large water surface.Some suffer more than others with this problem.The solution is to gradualy reduce the water depth until the fish shows signs of improvement and keep it at that depth for about 6 months.If the fish has improved sufficiently you can very gradualy start to higher the water level by about 1 inch per week,but if the fish reverts back to having problems it will have to be kept at a lower depth.You will probably have to get another tank unless you can adapt the tank you have to accomodate a much lower depth of water,probably somewhere around half what it is now.The problem is the filter etc but it is the only way to go unfortunately.
> 
> What are the dimensions of your tank?
> 
> Almost all of the swim bladder problems in fancy goldfish are because of the water depth.Their bodies cannot cope with the pressure.



that is really interesting!

the tank is 48" Long, 15" High and 12" wide (sorry just checked the aquarium size on the clear seal leaflet its 135L not 170L sorry can never remember off the top of my head)

trouble is if i took away the water to make it shallower, it wouldnt be enough water for them


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

il be honest im not sure. i have a goldfish in the pond outside who is extremely swollen, according to his previous owner hes been this way for years, he does forward rolls in the water sometimes as he has poor balance, he looks wrong, il post a pic of him in a minute, but i think his may well be a tumour. from what i was told, he was normal size, and a normal fish, then he started to grow and he is still growing a little now from what i can tell, im sure hes bigger than when he came here.










he is completely symetrical, no bigger one side than the other. hes active and eating ok. ive had him out to check on him once and hes squishy as any other goldfish ive felt, nothing hard and no lumps or bumps.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Of course, it could just be you have dodgy fish. Shop bought Oranda aren't always that high quality, been mass produced.

Re those filters, have you considered replacing them with a decent external? I find with internals you get tons of water movement but not a lot of filtration. An external would also give you space to use dentirfying resins etc.

Ade


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## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

miss_mystra said:


> Always feed sinking food anyway, although he has always a bad habit of gulping the sinking stuff before its even hit the surface! but he's done that forever, and does it less now as he's not so active.
> 
> i've bought some chickpeas to give the constipation a push, if not i'll try those things you've mentioned
> 
> Will also take a look at internal bacteria medication :2thumb:


Just be careful with it as you have a weather loach. Not sure if it will have any adverse effects. Read the instructions and if in doubt, half the dosage.


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

miss_mystra said:


> that is really interesting!
> 
> the tank is 48" Long, 15" High and 12" wide (sorry just checked the aquarium size on the clear seal leaflet its 135L not 170L sorry can never remember off the top of my head)
> 
> trouble is if i took away the water to make it shallower, it wouldnt be enough water for them


It is the only way you are going to make him better trust me and it does work.You may have to get another tank but it's the way you will make him better poor fish.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> It is the only way you are going to make him better trust me and it does work.You may have to get another tank but it's the way you will make him better poor fish.



cheers, 

so say next time i do water change, shall i just put one bucket (10L) less back in, see if any improvement, if not 10L less again and so on until he shows signs of recovery, or would that be too much?


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

You need to gradualy do it.Take it down an inch a day if possible till it is at about only a foot depth.Then see how he/she goes in 1 foot of water first.If he/she is a lot better and can swim upright in that depth and seems a lot better then keep it at that for 6 months and see what progress is made.If the fish is not a lot better by the time you get to 1 foot (12 inches) then lower it a little more to 10 inch gradualy and see how it is then.

I should of asked how big the fish is first really? and do you have an external or internal filter?


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> You need to gradualy do it.Take it down an inch a day if possible till it is at about only a foot depth.Then see how he/she goes in 1 foot of water first.If he/she is a lot better and can swim upright in that depth and seems a lot better then keep it at that for 6 months and see what progress is made.If the fish is not a lot better by the time you get to 1 foot (12 inches) then lower it a little more to 10 inch gradualy and see how it is then.
> 
> I should of asked how big the fish is first really? and do you have an external or internal filter?



http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i142/miss_mystra/Fishies/SAM_0319.jpg









he's probably slightly bigger now.

The tank is 15" deep. Taking away an inch for gravel and half an inch off the top then that doesn't leave much more than 12" anyway. But i'll start it on 12" this week.

2 internal filters (1 Eheim Pickup 2012 with its original sponge and seachem de-nitrate media in a bit of tights and a useless Fluval U2 with just the sponges in)

Can't go external really as it was one of the things that the Landlord was concerned about when we asked if we could have a tank - she doesn't want loads of pipes and things potentially leaking etc - well that's how she sees it and i don't have any experience of external filters to convince her otherwise. We might be moving soon anyway in a couple months so no isn't the time to change things over etc. Will be getting rid of the U2 soon as it's crap and getting something better!


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

O.K start taking out 1 inch a day until you have got the water as low as is possible and see if there is an improvement.You may be able to get it to 8 inches.You don't need to count the gravel just go down as low as is possible.The u2 is about 8 inches high so you should be able to go to 8 inches without problem.

Have you taken out the biomax out of the u2 ? as you say it only has sponges in.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Aquarium Filtration & Water Quality: Kent Marine Nitrate Sponge


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> O.K start taking out 1 inch a day until you have got the water as low as is possible and see if there is an improvement.You may be able to get it to 8 inches.You don't need to count the gravel just go down as low as is possible.The u2 is about 8 inches high so you should be able to go to 8 inches without problem.
> 
> Have you taken out the biomax out of the u2 ? as you say it only has sponges in.



Yeah, we replaced it with seachem but it kept clogging (it clogged with biomax too every 5 mins but was even worse with the seachem!) so we just leave out the middle section now.

I'll start reducing the water level 1 inch tonight, fingers crossed!

the ehiem is much taller than the U2... hopefully will be ok... i can always tilt it ... maybe lol


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

HABU said:


> image
> 
> Aquarium Filtration & Water Quality: Kent Marine Nitrate Sponge



looks just like the Seachem stuff i use


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

miss_mystra said:


> looks just like the Seachem stuff i use



yep... good stuff...


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

miss_mystra said:


> Yeah, we replaced it with seachem but it kept clogging (it clogged with biomax too every 5 mins but was even worse with the seachem!) so we just leave out the middle section now.
> 
> I'll start reducing the water level 1 inch tonight, fingers crossed!
> 
> the ehiem is much taller than the U2... hopefully will be ok... i can always tilt it ... maybe lol



O.K fingers crossed he will improve as you go along.let me know how things progress please.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> O.K fingers crossed he will improve as you go along.let me know how things progress please.



Thanks littlefoot, will let you know  

Fingers crossed we get to see him the right way up!



It's really odd when you think about it - fancy goldfish are always the better ones to keep in tanks compared to long bodied/commons etc... yet seems they are suited better to shallow water ... which is more likely to be a pond etc.... really makes you think!


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

It is because of what humans have done to them.They have been bred to make them look a certain way for our own sellfish reasons and the fish suffer for it.Same as a lot of animals really and it is so sad and horrible really.No fish is supposed to live in a tank just as no monkey is supposed to live in a cage but humans want it that way so the animals have no choice.All we can do is make sure they have the best quality of life possible but the best solution would be to stop it altogether but that is never going to happen.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I'm a strict single tail, normal body, fan when it comes to goldfish I'm afraid. Littlefoot is quite correct though, it's our messing that has created fish such as Oranda etc, and originally they were kept in shallow ceramic bowls to be viewed from above.

I have to say though, anybody who thinks a pond is shallow has clearly never seen mine. It's about 6 feet deep at least. lol You certainly will be pressed to find a glass tank even half as deep outside of a public aquarium. 

Ade


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Wolfenrook said:


> I'm a strict single tail, normal body, fan when it comes to goldfish I'm afraid. Littlefoot is quite correct though, it's our messing that has created fish such as Oranda etc, and originally they were kept in shallow ceramic bowls to be viewed from above.
> 
> I have to say though, anybody who thinks a pond is shallow has clearly never seen mine. It's about 6 feet deep at least. lol You certainly will be pressed to find a glass tank even half as deep outside of a public aquarium.
> 
> Ade



haha fair point - i just meant it's easier to make a huuuuge pond that is shallow than a huge tank :Na_Na_Na_Na:


I think these will certainly be my last indoor goldfish, unless i got into the amazing position of being able to get an huge shallow long and wide tank to rehome some rescue fancies - i wouldn't buy them again. If i ever buy my own place i would love a goldfish pond  full of lovely commons and long bodied types


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Yes that is what they need really,a large water surface area but shallow water.It helps that your tank is 4 feet in length but the 1 foot from front to back doesn't help at all as the deeper the water the more pressure.If the tank was 2 foot from front to back the pressure would be so much less.As you say it is hard to get a shallow tank with a large area unless you have one made.then there is the problem of a stand to hold it and a place to keep it.A shallow pond would be good as you can have it pretty large.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> Yes that is what they need really,a large water surface area but shallow water.It helps that your tank is 4 feet in length but the 1 foot from front to back doesn't help at all as the deeper the water the more pressure.If the tank was 2 foot from front to back the pressure would be so much less.As you say it is hard to get a shallow tank with a large area unless you have one made.then there is the problem of a stand to hold it and a place to keep it.A shallow pond would be good as you can have it pretty large.


this is when an indoor pond would be AWESOME!


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Yea if you have the space etc,it would be cool :2thumb:


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> Yea if you have the space etc,it would be cool :2thumb:



i can dream i suppose LOL


Took an inch of water away last night... not much difference in him but he seemed more alert and moving his fins round more.

In other news Precious (the other oranda who seemed like she'd really slowed down lately) seems more herself since i put in the heater, it only keeps the water around 18-20C(20C tops i usually keep it around 18.5) according to the digi thermometer but it seems to have cheered her up!

We're getting there :lol2:


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Well seems like you are on the right track,excellent news :2thumb:


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

another inch gone!


first off - yuk!!!! Pedro was doing a poo that looked like it could have been one of my hairs coming out his bum!!!! They were wormed on Tuesday so could it be a worm - or more likely that he has actually eaten a stray hair that's landed in the water?!

Then... fed them some chick peas this morning. I tried to hand feed Pedro to make sure he ate one as he took no interest what so ever...Precious was thinking about it and nudging them round lol. Anyway, i decided to gently turn him the right way up, and he ate a couple (looking unimpressed!). he stayed the right way up! And Precious was staying really close.... to my soppy eyes it looked like she was helping him stay upright and gently nudging him round the tank (i know it probably wasn't at all...).

Just come back from shopping and he's upside down again.... it's a start though i'm sure!


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

I am keeping my fingers crossed and really hoping it does the trick.I feel so sorry for him.keep up the good work and hopefully he will recover


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> I am keeping my fingers crossed and really hoping it does the trick.I feel so sorry for him.keep up the good work and hopefully he will recover



Well the level is getting lower now, i'd say the tank is just about half-way and i don't like the thought of dipping any lower as it can't be enough water volume now.

Pedro has more of an appetite and is getting more responsive now, instead of being zoned out he chases the pellets round... still upside down...


My next plan is to get hold of a 2nd hand filter and fill it with just seachem denitrate media, and use it in the quarantine tub, then use the water from there to do water changes - lot of faff but there you go! When there is so little water volume to play with that water's got to be perfect! There isn't enough light anywhere i can put the tub so i can't really grow any plants in it, might just chuck a load of moss balls in anyway!


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Hi,it's a pitty you can't get a seperate tank just for him but it would need to be at least the same size as the one you have so that the water level can stay low for a few months.See how he goes over the next week or so,how many inches of water are left now?


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> Hi,it's a pitty you can't get a seperate tank just for him but it would need to be at least the same size as the one you have so that the water level can stay low for a few months.See how he goes over the next week or so,how many inches of water are left now?


just over 9 inches, from the bottom (inc gravel)

I'm going to chuck out about half the gravel i think, i gravel vac it regularly but it's probably harbouring a load of crap

I've come home to Pedro upside down - but fins are not clamped in anymore - he looks deranged lol but despite being the wrong way up he looks more alive behind the eyes too, and he is floating very slightly, rather than looking like a lead weight at the bottom.

BUT - now Precious is bottom sitting - she's perked up slightly since i've come in/put the livingroom lights on etc, but i imagine the drop in water volume isn't much fun for her, although the temperature had dropped to around 17C. I have a feeling her old owner may have kept her in a heated set-up (ie around 20C - not as in tropical). The heater's just a cheap one so does tend to drop sometimes, hopefully it'll kick in a little warmer now i've fiddled with it, and cheer her up.

Water change tonight... hopefully the filter i'm going to use for the anti-nitrate tub will be here in a couple of days, and i can put some better water in, instead of whats coming out here! I'm doing 2-3 water changes a week at this level seeing as the water will dirty up so quickly.


I do wish i had room for another tank, but there really isn't, especially not something that long in order to be shallow. I wish i could put him in the bath :lol2: but we kind of need it! I don't think he'd share it with us and he's probably not a huge fan of bubble bath!


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

OH :censor::censor::censor::censor::censor::censor::censor::censor::censor:

the heater just exploded - i forgot the unplug it before starting to take out water :bash::bash::bash::bash:

Heard a pop/fizzle/smoke and i just yanked the thing out - amazed the fish (or me!) didn't get electrocuted. Took the fish out and put them in the bucket of water i'd already created, and had to feel around for bits of glass - hopefully i have it all. Can't believe i did that, i could have killed them after all this!!! Probably doesn't help it was a cheap one - any recommendations for good ones?


BUT


water level is 8.5 inches now (inc gravel) fish went back in about 5 mins ago. Pedro actually righted himself after a couple mins!

He's only just this second just gone back to belly up. Now he's just turned himself nose-up and is squirting water at the ceiling!

Think that means i need to crack on!


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

i hope Pedro keeps going the right way and makes a full recovery, hes a stunning fish and you are doing a fantastic job of helping him through this. will keep fingers firmly crossed he does well with you :2thumb:


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> i hope Pedro keeps going the right way and makes a full recovery, hes a stunning fish and you are doing a fantastic job of helping him through this. will keep fingers firmly crossed he does well with you :2thumb:



thanks Goldie - if only there was such a thing as a fish vet (in sense you could find them as easily as a dog/cat type vet!)


Not happy fishies today - the water is very cold at 14C, going by Precious she was much more active and alert at the 18-20C mark, and she is sulking in the corner... do they make fishy blankets?! Heater has been ordered so will be here in a couple of days, opted for a Jager after reading good reviews. Will remember to unplug it during water changes this time! :bash::whip:

Pedro... well he's not moving much (i put this down to the coldness) BUT

He is now not totally upside down. He's settled into a 45° angle and seems to be heading towards being sideways... i guess that's some bizarre progress there!

Taken about a third of gravel out, will probably take some more out soon, i'm starting to like the look of the 'gravel-less' set ups the more i see them, plus it's one less thing to do when it's a good time to turn things planted. Going to leave some areas with gravel in as the loach sometimes likes to dig, although he does it less since i bought him a hide (plastic log thing haha) so will play with by ear to see whether it's worth keeping. Be nice to have some big pebbles or something. I always worry that the goldfish can swallow gravel now as they've got such big gobs!


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

lol the big gobs remark made me laugh. 

fantastic news about pedro, 45* is a huge difference. have you thought about putting hot water in a clean plastic bottle and floating it in there to keep it a tad warmer? might help.

i like the bare bottom look with plants in bowls/glasses, a very clean look and looks to be amazing easy to keep on top of with regards debris being stuck in the tank.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> lol the big gobs remark made me laugh.
> 
> fantastic news about pedro, 45* is a huge difference. have you thought about putting hot water in a clean plastic bottle and floating it in there to keep it a tad warmer? might help.
> 
> i like the bare bottom look with plants in bowls/glasses, a very clean look and looks to be amazing easy to keep on top of with regards debris being stuck in the tank.


ooh yes plants in glasses does look very nice!

He swum from one end to the other of the tank while i wasn't looking (so he must have done it quickly), then started 'swearing' at me (where he glares and looks like he's shouting abuse at me!) then he calmed back down. Defo heading sideways though 

Hoping my new filter comes tomorrow so i can set up the denitrat-ing bucket idea 

Haven't got any plastic bottles knocking about booo, i'll try pick one up round work tomorrow or have a bottle of pop myself! but good idea! :2thumb:


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

An update....


8 inches of water - Pedro is still at 45°, but continuing to be the same level of activity... i was going to lose another inch but....


during the temperature drop (as low as 12°c brrrrr chilly tank!) Precious started to look moudly... she acted like she was in hibernation - barely moving or anything - i thought normal because it was so cold, so thought the mould was just debris in the tank settling on her wen.. which is very knobbly lol. But now the heater is here she hasn't perked up much, even at 20°c which before cheered her right up, she moves now but her head is covered in mould. Pedro now seems to have a little of it too.

I've added some salt, and melafix, i'm guessing its either fungal or the slime coat going nuts at whatever else is going on there. Should i up the temperature (about 26/27°c i've read) some more as you would for white spot etc? Guessing her immune system was weakened by the cold, then having less water meant i needed to do more water changes... i was doing more but clearly it would seem like i need to be doing them everyday :devil:


All the gravels gone too, guess something nasty may have been habouring itself deep down and now its knocking about the tank... always gravel vac'd so who knows.

Got about 30 moss balls knocking about, looks kinda cool, but needs more of the buggers!


Also got my spare tub set up with a filter filled with just seachem denitrate media, so will be using that for my water changes from now on, you never know it might help!

If it's not one thing... it's the other (goldfish) aaarrghhhhhh!!


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

and now we appear to have fin rot... treating everyday with melafix and pimafix... the fungus appears worse (it looks whiter and blistery) but at a closer look its actually coming away from the wens on both fish. Poor Precious' beautiful flowing fins are being ruined  they look so miserable right now.... changing water every day, it's heart breaking to feel like i'm getting no where. Pedro has the fungus/fin rot too, and his pressure sickness stays at the same level, he's still at 45° angle... i daren't take the water level any lower now... i don't know what to do, although i'm sure in time the fungus and fin rot will start to shift and it's just a short term issue.


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Hi,sorry to hear about your problems,those poor fish.If you think it is the water level (hence less water volume) that is adding to the problem (and it is a possibility) as is too many water changes etc causing stress.which could be causing the fin rot etc.Then maybe it's time to put water back in,especially as poor pedro isn't really improving.

It is swings and roundabouts unfortunately and as the less water volume is making you do a lot more water changes etc then it could be stressing the fish too much and making them ill.It is a possibility so maybe think about refilling the tank very slowly?

Why are you changing water every day and how much?


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> Hi,sorry to hear about your problems,those poor fish.If you think it is the water level (hence less water volume) that is adding to the problem (and it is a possibility) as is too many water changes etc causing stress.which could be causing the fin rot etc.Then maybe it's time to put water back in,especially as poor pedro isn't really improving.
> 
> It is swings and roundabouts unfortunately and as the less water volume is making you do a lot more water changes etc then it could be stressing the fish too much and making them ill.It is a possibility so maybe think about refilling the tank very slowly?
> 
> Why are you changing water every day and how much?


I thought that having less water meant that water quality could go bad due to waste etc (although i've hardly fed them) so been doing more water changes. Usually around 25%, and using water from my de-nitrate tub lol. 

I know Pedro is about the same, he is so much better than he was and at the same time i'm worried about making him bad again upping the water, you really can't win....

Interestingly.. done another nitrate test - this time with the tetra drops... tank read 80 , tub read 12.5... but the tap water is down to 25. tested with the API i normally use and it was the same.... typical i set up that tub and the tap water starts to behave!!!

The tank is going downhill water quality wise, for the first time in ages i've got ammonia of 0.25 and nitrite of 0.25. Ph is still 7.5 though.

Pedro has decided because we've said he's stayed the same that he might tilt more sideways.....:whistling2:


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Too many water changes will send the tank into a cycle and will also stress the fish out no end.How come the nitrate in the tank is so high?Maybe it is going through cycle after cycle with all the water changes and that's why? If you have good filters,even with only 8 inches of water in a 4 foot tank,you shouldn't need to change water every day.All you need to do is monitor it and do a change if necessary.Is pedro still as swollen as he used to be?


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> Too many water changes will send the tank into a cycle and will also stress the fish out no end.How come the nitrate in the tank is so high?Maybe it is going through cycle after cycle with all the water changes and that's why? If you have good filters,even with only 8 inches of water in a 4 foot tank,you shouldn't need to change water every day.All you need to do is monitor it and do a change if necessary.Is pedro still as swollen as he used to be?


oh :censor:... typical... thought i was doing the right thing


i thought it was the filters that cycle not the water itself though? obviously the water's part of it but i thought as long as the bacteria on the filters is established from cycling the tank initially then it was ok. confusion :s

i have no idea why the nitrate in the tank is so high, i would normally assume that it was due to the tap water issues as before but now of course the tap water's finally behaving.

Pedro does seem less swollen, still looks a fatty though but maybe that's his shape anyway, or something because he's been upside down so long. he does try to right himself lots more although then he just tips back to his new angle... but at least he's acting more lively.... i don't know i feel like i'm putting them both through hell! Precious looks dreadful and has taken up wedging herself by the filters at a funny angle, so i've just had to block it up so she can't. Shes sitting at the other end, leaning over slightly, and keeps trying to swim to the surface with what looks like a lot of effort then sinking back down.


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

The bacteria do live in the filter but the water goes through the filter and can affect it if it is forever changing temp or parameters etc etc.Without going into it too deeply and long windedly too many large water changes can affect the bacteria.Not to mention stress the fish out a lot if you are doing them every day.

Do you always use water conditioner?
Do you add water at same temp? (I know they are cold water fish but tap water can be a lot colder than room temp and you also mentioned you have a heater aswell to keep it a bit warmer)
How long has the tank been set up?
What media is in your filter?
Do you have water surface agitation?
Do you have any airstones etc?

I don't know why your nitrates are high other than cycling problems (I could be wrong though) and yes the only way to lower this is with water changes really.You can get nitrate removing media etc but I wouldn't i would try to sort the problem out.

Also it may help to add some API stress zyme plus once a week.Until things get back on track.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> The bacteria do live in the filter but the water goes through the filter and can affect it if it is forever changing temp or parameters etc etc.Without going into it too deeply and long windedly too many large water changes can affect the bacteria.Not to mention stress the fish out a lot if you are doing them every day.
> 
> Do you always use water conditioner?
> Do you add water at same temp? (I know they are cold water fish but tap water can be a lot colder than room temp and you also mentioned you have a heater aswell to keep it a bit warmer)
> ...



Do you always use water conditioner? yep - used to use API Stress Coat but changed to Seachem Prime in the past week or so
Do you add water at same temp? (I know they are cold water fish but tap water can be a lot colder than room temp and you also mentioned you have a heater aswell to keep it a bit warmer) well... yes the water from the tap is colder, and it did cause a temperature change when there was no heater, now it doesn't affect it more than a couple of degrees c.
How long has the tank been set up? Since November 2010, was cycled for a couple of months, then Pedro and the loach moved in.
What media is in your filter? The Fluval U2 now just has its sponges with no carbon, the Eheim has it's original sponge cut to 2/3 its size now, with Seachem de-nitrate media in a sock thingy in the top third.
Do you have water surface agitation? lots from the two filters
Do you have any airstones etc? yes one Rena air pump running into one of those long bendy air curtains.

i do currently add api stress zyme once a week. 

I'm a bit baffled with what to do, as another forum is full of people advising me to do a huge water change :S


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Yes they will advise a large water change because of the high nitrates.It's the only way to quickly dilute them.

Do you clean the inside of the glass at all?
Do you hoover the gravel regularly?
What and how much do you feed?
What ornaments,plants etc are in the tank?
What kind of gravel?

I guess you are going to have to do a water change but you need to get to the bottom of the problem aswell.Maybe up the level of water a couple inch aswell.Have you been doing a 25% water change everyday for the past week?

P.S It is API stress Zyme PLUS that i mean,it has live bacteria in it.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> Yes they will advise a large water change because of the high nitrates.It's the only way to quickly dilute them.
> 
> Do you clean the inside of the glass at all?
> Do you hoover the gravel regularly?
> ...



Do you clean the inside of the glass at all? yep, every week
Do you hoover the gravel regularly? everytime i do a water change.. although no there is no gravel anymore i still 'hoover up'
What and how much do you feed? Hikari sinking pellets.... not very often now as they don't seem interested. I try a couple times a week but have to just hoover it up.
What ornaments,plants etc are in the tank? just moss balls and a plastic log hide (faily small and no sharp edges etc)
What kind of gravel? was the smaller style.


Been doing daily water changes for the past week + a couple days.... ever since i realised there was a fungal problem... rather than just dirt settling on Precious' head as originally thought

i'm pretty sure it must be the Plus that i use, not at home to look but i know the bottle say it has live bacteria.


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Has the problems got worse since you removed the gravel ? and do you wipe over the bare bottom glass?

If this is a cycle problem removing the gravel may of made matters worse.I am just trying to think of everything i can to help.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> Has the problems got worse since you removed the gravel ? and do you wipe over the bare bottom glass?
> 
> If this is a cycle problem removing the gravel may of made matters worse.I am just trying to think of everything i can to help.



Yeah, i started removing gravel the same night the heater blew. I only took out about a third of it that night, and the rest a few days later. I'm guessing that messed up the cycle or released some nasty bacteria or caused them to run riot... combined with fish that went into hibernation when the temp dropped to 12°c ... not good  everything was fine until then. I took the gravel out to stop them hurting themselves if they drag their bellies on it at the lower water level, and as i do want to do a planted tank in a few months, i thought it would be a good idea.... and one less thing to clean  . Otherwise, everything was going fine until i did that  Pedro was recovering and Precious was fine.


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Smooth gravel is absolutely fine to use but not rough gravel.I like and always use Marina Gravel,it is a decent size (not too small) and is nice and smooth and comes in quite a few colours.I grow anubias in my tank but don't use the gravel for them i attach them to wood.You don't need a bare bottom to have plants,infact i thought it would be better to have gravel with plants.What plants are you thinking of?


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> Smooth gravel is absolutely fine to use but not rough gravel.I like and always use Marina Gravel,it is a decent size (not too small) and is nice and smooth and comes in quite a few colours.I grow anubias in my tank but don't use the gravel for them i attach them to wood.You don't need a bare bottom to have plants,infact i thought it would be better to have gravel with plants.What plants are you thinking of?



i have no idea at all yet, and a long way off that stage lol. I want a more natural look anyway and thought you used different sorts of stuff with plants? ah well, the gravels gone now! least they wont get sore bellies from dragging along the gravel... looks funky with all the moss balls to be fair


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

I thought you meant just a couple of plants here and there.I don't know a lot about having quite a few as i have never had many myself.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Consider going barebottom. The tank that is.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Consider going barebottom. The tank that is.



i am already bare bottom with balls rolling round freely.


the tank that is.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Some photos i just took of the gruesome twosome... they were quite perky when i came home tonight (the fish that is) 


This is Pedro's new 'usual' angle. Just got in tonight to some 'swearing' jazz fins and an angry face he looks like he's shouting abuse - that's my boy! he hates having his photo taken and at a time like this i don't blame him! I think i need to scrub the tank a bit harder too, bloody algae that i can't see in the normal light!!!!











This is the top view - i promise his eyes are normal - stupid camera! You can just make out the 'mould' on the wen. But his fins are out and moving which is a huge improvement from a month or so ago when he was fully upside down and fins were clamped in, and he looked vacant. his fins look a little tatty, but to be honest he's always looked a bit scruffy and they aren't new tatty bits.


































And this is Precious, also from the top. You can really see the 'mould' on her wen! Poor lady







You can see why some people believe fancies are best viewed from the top though, look at those fins. They're also slightly red in places, any tatty bits are new in her case, there is some holes in the middle of the tail if you look from the side, but she doesn't photograph well in the tank from behind glass as its not lit and she's so dark.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

In the process of refilling the tank verrrrrrry slowly... and with a bit of help (i propped him up between the filters and the loach's hide and gave him an apple snail as a crutch LOL) Pedro has defaulted to a sideways postion rather than an upside-down tilt! Time for cake!:2thumb:


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

This morning Precious' fins were in a terrible state, large bits of the 'webbing' had disappeared over night. Otherwise she was active and trying to swim, but struggling. I guess because her fins were in such a state.

Got in from work and she's died.

RIP Precious x


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Oh Noooooooooo that's a shock.I am so sorry you have lost her.I hope to goodness things get better for you.That is so sad  ,my thoughts are with you.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> Oh Noooooooooo that's a shock.I am so sorry you have lost her.I hope to goodness things get better for you.That is so sad  ,my thoughts are with you.



thanks Littlefoot, you've been a great help. 

Really upset, but i just had a look at her before putting her in a container, her tail was splitting away even with a gentle outstretch. Without proper fins and tail i guess she would have had a very poor quality of life if she had recovered. I really thought we'd turned a corner yesterday and now all i can think of is any of this now the right thing to do, and is maybe time to call it a day with Pedro. I don't know how he keeps on going i really don't!

But there's a fine line between surviving and thriving. Something for me to think about when i calm down i suppose. I am very attached to my fish as you can see! So i need to think long and hard when i've had a few days.

So sad as it took me so long to find him a suitable friend to rescue, she was such a funny fish too with her grumpy face and jowels like a bulldog!


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

does anyone know what to do with her body?

We have no garden to bury her, or even a bloody spade to shovel with!

Please don't tell me to put her in the bin etc... she was a much loved pet.


Can i take her to a vet to be cremated, don't want the ashes or anything, just want her disposed of respectfully


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Ring your local vet up and ask is all i can say.I don't see why they can't help you and again i'm really sorry.Or can you bury her in a close relatives garden or anything?


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> Ring your local vet up and ask is all i can say.I don't see why they can't help you and again i'm really sorry.Or can you bury her in a close relatives garden or anything?



Sadly i've no relatives in London, i'm from Stoke-on-Trent originally, so family's up there, shame really as my aunt has an amazing garden, with a big plec's grave at the top so she'd have been happy to have her there. My boyfriend said we can't put her in the freezer til next time i go up either  to be fair he puts up with a drawer full of rats in there so keeping dead pets in there is where he draws the line i guess.

If i had a little wooden boat strong enough she'd have a viking style funeral on the thames... but i think the police would lock me up for loss of marbles! I did promise Pedro the same!


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

So sorry to hear about precious  You've tried so hard with them, must be horrible 

A lot of vets do cremate, I'm sure you can find one that will if you have a ring round. I'd offer a corner of my garden, but since we're planning on digging it up soon it wouldn't be all that respectful.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Christie_ZXR said:


> So sorry to hear about precious  You've tried so hard with them, must be horrible
> 
> A lot of vets do cremate, I'm sure you can find one that will if you have a ring round. I'd offer a corner of my garden, but since we're planning on digging it up soon it wouldn't be all that respectful.


aww thanks

I rang the local vets this morning and dropped her off on my way into work. I felt like a nut, even though it's what i wanted, but they were ever so nice about it!


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Hi,i am glad you got her sorted and they helped you


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

glad to hear it's all sorted. Hows Pedro looking?


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Christie_ZXR said:


> glad to hear it's all sorted. Hows Pedro looking?



Just got in, he's about the same, still tilted upside down, but doing the odd attempt of somersaulting and swimming in short bursts.

Just testing the water now, then no doubt a water change.. will prob let it go back an inch shallower seeing as there's just Pedro and the loach in there, just to ease the water pressure.

Going to feed him some mush of peas and grains of epsom salts as something to really clear out his system too, just in case he is bunged up in fat tummy.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Water readings from the tank today

NitrAte - 80-100
Nitrite - 0 (hooray)
Ammonia - 0.25 (not surprising as there was of course a dead fish in there for who knows how long yesterday)
ph - 7.5


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Hi again,those nitrate levels are way too high as you know and there has to be something causing them.Being exposed to those levels over a period of time will just kill the fish as you have found out and there has to be a reason for it.It is usualy caused by hidden rotting food,dead fish,uncleaned filters etc etc.I know you probably already know all this but there has to be a reason and i wish i could help you find it.It will be really affecting pedro too,as if he hasn't got enough problems bless him.

How long exactly has the nitrate problems been happening and was it o.k previously?


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> Hi again,those nitrate levels are way too high as you know and there has to be something causing them.Being exposed to those levels over a period of time will just kill the fish as you have found out and there has to be a reason for it.It is usualy caused by hidden rotting food,dead fish,uncleaned filters etc etc.I know you probably already know all this but there has to be a reason and i wish i could help you find it.It will be really affecting pedro too,as if he hasn't got enough problems bless him.
> 
> How long exactly has the nitrate problems been happening and was it o.k previously?


well, this has been a problem for about 5 months now 

Nitrates were coming out at 50-80ppm straight from the tap!

They've come down recently, in the last few weeks (25ppm out the tap) and using the seachem prime and seachem denitrate media in the spare tub of water reads 12.5 ppm - this is the water i have been using in water changes for the past couple of weeks.

I always rinse the gunk off the filters gently every week, or twice if the fluval clogs, always in tank water, just getting the excess off rather than wanting to kill anything off on there!

My original theory was that it was the nitrates making him sick, but trying all sorts of things wasn't working, and a few people insisted that it may have been other things. So, this thread has been the try everything thread.


I was hoping with a clean bottom (LOL) and very little in the way of feeding etc things would alieviate. Even adding low nitrate water seems to help. I did a massive water change the night before Precious died (Monday night) so how can they have climbed to this level in 2 days i don't know.


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Big water changes too often like i said will also cause problems and i know it's swings and roundabouts.How long have those moss balls been in the tank and have you gave them a good clean out in tank water at all since they have been in?

Have you cleaned out the inside of the filters and the filter media aswell?

If you are adding water that is 12 ppm then in a day or two that has shot up there is something in the tank or filters causing it.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> Big water changes too often like i said will also cause problems and i know it's swings and roundabouts.How long have those moss balls been in the tank and have you gave them a good clean out in tank water at all since they have been in?
> 
> Have you cleaned out the inside of the filters and the filter media aswell?
> 
> If you are adding water that is 12 ppm then in a day or two that has shot up there is something in the tank or filters causing it.


moss balls have been in for a couple months in total, i bought 5, then another five, then 10 and another 10 a couple weeks ago. I gather them up regularly and rinse them in tank water, and give them a little squeeze.

Inside of the filters gets scrubbed with sponge filter, and the outside, then the sponge gets rinsed etc with tank water as usual


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

It certainly is a strange one.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

tonight's readings


ph 7.5
ammonia in between 0 and 0.25, so i'd say 0.12, hasn't gone up as i tested it after the big water change and it was the same
nitrIte 0
NitrAte 35 roughly, it's in the middle of 25 and 50 on the colours. So there is a slight increase from after the wc last night

Pedro's tail is streaked with blood vessel things



























done an 80% change tonight to bring the ammonia down hopefully and to stay on top of the nitrate. 

really not having a good time with this am i 

judging by his tail, it doesn't look hopeful, Precious tail went the same the night before she died, in the morning it had split to pieces, then by the evening she'd gone. And she was the right way up to start with. I'm amazed he keeps going, which makes the decision even harder to make on whether to euthanise or not. Plus i'm very attached to the little sod.. obviously.


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Hi,i really don't think all these large regular water changes are helping.There are a few things that cause these red bloody streaks.Nitrite poisoning and septicemia are a couple of them.Look them up and see what you think.If it is septicemia it may of been going on for a while and can also cause fish to lie on the bottom or act abnormally.Look it up and see what you think.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

littlefoot said:


> Hi,i really don't think all these large regular water changes are helping.There are a few things that cause these red bloody streaks.Nitrite poisoning and septicemia are a couple of them.Look them up and see what you think.If it is septicemia it may of been going on for a while and can also cause fish to lie on the bottom or act abnormally.Look it up and see what you think.



i've been looking it up today at work (co-incidence) There was that nitrite spike but it wasn't huge but then i guess it doesn't have to be to cause a problem. But previously nitrite has been 0 during these issues for the past 5 months. Like you said i've probably knocked the cycle in some way. Very similar symptons though, but... i'd lean towards septicemia as a result of all whats going on. Precious had the same symptons before she died, and the box she was in was soaked with blood by morning. I really hope the weather loach doesn't get it, he is right as rain (and has always been) but i really don't have anything to put him in as he needs a long tank to swim in. I do have a home lined up for him should this all end in tears, as it no doubt will, so it would be nice for him to at least make it after all this!


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

Have you tried melafix and pimafix at any point? Can't remember if I've already suggested this! They're herbal, so even though you can't be sure what you're medicating for (which is usually a big no no) they're generally pretty harmless anyway. Surprised me, but they do seem to work on some things. I had a guppy with fungus and they cured her. Shouldn't affect the loach or the filters either. Could be worth a shot?

Also, what about a bit of bacterlife or similar to give the bacteria a hand? 

Quite possibly a daft q, but which dechlorinator are you using? Might be worth checking it's doing chloramines as well as chlorine and heavy metals just incase. I know there are still a few you can buy which only do chlorine, which is a bit useless! Haloex has always worked well for me.

Other than that, I can't think of anything else to suggest


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Christie_ZXR said:


> Have you tried melafix and pimafix at any point? Can't remember if I've already suggested this! They're herbal, so even though you can't be sure what you're medicating for (which is usually a big no no) they're generally pretty harmless anyway. Surprised me, but they do seem to work on some things. I had a guppy with fungus and they cured her. Shouldn't affect the loach or the filters either. Could be worth a shot?
> 
> Also, what about a bit of bacterlife or similar to give the bacteria a hand?
> 
> ...


yes, i'm dosing melafix and pimafix every day for the past two weeks or so (i'm losing my grip on time to be honest!) one of them says it's for internal bacteria as well so maybe it's helping his insides, who knows... but then it didn't save Precious who by all odds was technically the stronger fish.

I used to use API Stress Coat as my dechlorinator but switched to Seachem Prime a couple weeks back as it says it detoxifies nitrates etc so seemed like a better choice.

I think the bacteria is starting to recover in the cycle, i use stress zyme plus which claims to help the bacteria so maybe that will be ok

i'm starting to think though, even if i cure the illness etc from now what then? he was upside down before the fin rots etc...he'll still be upside down even with whatever's up now cured.


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## INJAF (Nov 12, 2011)

Hey Miss M, just been reading through this, so sorry to hear Precious has died, such a shame after all your efforts for them.

Looking at her pic, and at Pedro, she did have a lot of red in her fins/tail, red streaks is one of those things that 'can' be a symptom of a variety of things unfortunately, it has to be taken in context with everything else. 

How much Prime are you using at the moment? Are you just using the standard dose? I've seen the detoxing nitrate thing come up on another forum, from what I understand of it this only works if you dose higher than the standard amount, and I don't think it's recommended to use it long term at the higher dose. 

Personally, now that you are getting the nitrate down to reasonable levels, I'd say that stability of water conditions are going to be more helpful to Pedro at the moment. Big water changes are great for dealing with problems like nitrate but it will also affect temperature, PH, etc. even if only a little. Prime will detox ammonia if you follow the instructions so don't worry that your test kit is reading ammonia, I've taken the following from a post that was posted for me when I was asking about ammonia tests and Prime (would be a bit much to palm it off as my own work, lol!)



> (from 'cathie')
> From experience of the 2 bottle API test, salicylate, is not accurate when using Prime. I haven't used the one bottle test, and I don't know what reagent that is. Both salicylate and Nessler reagent based tests determine the total ammonia by raising the pH of the test solution to 12 or greater. At this high pH all ammonia removal products will break down and re-release the ammonia, which accounts for a false ammonia reading.
> 
> What Seachem (makers of Prime) have to say on the subject of ammonia and tests:
> ...


A Seachem ammonia alert is more reliable than the liquid tests as it only shows toxic ammonia. If you are using the Prime as directed I wouldn't worry about very low ammonia readings unless you have a Seachem alert showing toxic ammonia is present.

The 'fungus' on his wen could just be a heavy slime coating, it doesn't look too fungussy to me. I'd be inclined to think his slimecoat is going into over drive a little as the water conditions are changing.

Melafix and Pimafix are great, and effective IME on small injuries etc. but as a medication to treat a systemic, chronic problem I'm not sure they are as effective as other meds. But they are gentle so won't stress his system too much.

Have you used any other medications on him at all?

I've read about the shallow water for swimbladder issues thing, I'm yet to be completely convinced that goldies are not designed for deeper water. I do think it can help when the fish is under the weather as it means the swimbladder doesn't have to work as hard to maintain buoyancy, but I'm not convinced that the difference between 12 inches and 15 inches is a problem for the average fancy. Water pressure at those depths really isn't much of a difference which is part of the argument I've seen put forward before. I think it's more that shallow water provides a bit of a rest for the swimbladder in times of illness or when it's heavily compromised by poor development due to dodgy fancy genes.

I know it's a big concern that he's on his side now, and was upsidedown before but if I were you I'd look to deal with the red streaks - keep his water stable so make sure any water changes are done with water that's the same temperature, check the PH of the tank and fresh water, small daily changes would be better than big ones if you are concerned. I'd be inclined to try a stronger med like Myxazin if melafix and pimafix haven't changed him much. I'm not keen on throwing meds in for undiagnosed problems but those red streaks are quite worrying and I'd want to rule out a bacterial infection if he were mine.

HTH, I do feel for you, hope things turn a corner soon


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

INJAF said:


> Hey Miss M, just been reading through this, so sorry to hear Precious has died, such a shame after all your efforts for them.
> 
> Looking at her pic, and at Pedro, she did have a lot of red in her fins/tail, red streaks is one of those things that 'can' be a symptom of a variety of things unfortunately, it has to be taken in context with everything else.
> 
> ...


i've been using standard doses of Prime to start with, then did a couple of higher doses (double or triple) when nitrates in the tank were high in the tank. I'm not too so worried about the ammonia now that i've read that info, so thank you!

As for the fungus, well, i don't know it could be slime going nuts, but Precious had the same and she started it first so who knows.

it's been suggested that i try the chamber method to help with the nitrate poisoning. GoldFish Emergency 911 - Nitrate; the gentle giant

just don't know whether it would stress him further. he's had a couple of swims this morning, but i dropped a little food by him and it just landed on him and he ignored it totally.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

miss_mystra said:


> I'm amazed he keeps going, which makes the decision even harder to make on whether to euthanise or not.


I'm afraid in my opinion the following would probably be the decider in calling it time to euthanase:



miss_mystra said:


> i dropped a little food by him and it just landed on him and he ignored it totally.


When an animal is unable to feed by its self it's a good indicator to call it a day. Yes, it may just "pass away by its self" if left to it, but if we can control this and euthanase in a humane way that is the nicer option, rather than being so ill that it dies.

I've not read the entire thread, though am generally aware of the situation with Pedro. 

Humane euthanasia in fish is simple, and legal. Have a read: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/fish-keeping/655293-do-fish-feel-pain-how.html


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

AshMashMash said:


> I'm afraid in my opinion the following would probably be the decider in calling it time to euthanase:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thanks, i have already read your post a while back, so it was always going to be done the clove oil way, i couldn't hit him or chop his head off, it's too horrible to think of for an animal i hold dear as a pet.

I do agree with you about the lack of interest in food. It was always a decider with family dogs in the past who were very ill/old (ie on their way out) and once they didn't want to eat, even their favourite treats etc, that was when we knew to call it a day.

i'm taking the weekend to decide. He's perked up a lot over the course of the day. The chamber treatment is a viable last option anyway. In a way i don't feel right not trying the only thing i haven't tried yet... but on the other side it may be something that has to be done a lot if the tap water nitrates go up again... we plan to stay in living in London for some time... and Pedro is only 3 years old, can't just keep fixing the poor guy forever. So yeah just taking my time deciding over the weekend.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

ive just caught up :gasp: im so sorry you lost precious  RIP pretty fish.

i have to say though, hard though it is, if pedro was mine i would now euthanise. i nice peacefrul drift off to sleep in a clove bath. i cant see he has much if any quality of life unfortunately,especially as you said hes ignoring food now, which is totally not a goldfish thing to pass up. though give everything a chance, and if you water quality is improving (as ours is too now, though i no longer have my indoor fish) then he may come good with smaller PWC with no big swings in parameters, but i wouldnt let him linger on too much longer as he is  im so sorry things have gone so badly with them. 

good to hear that mr loach is still doing well though :2thumb:


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

And so the saga now ends.

I put him to sleep tonight, a nice peaceful clove oil bath. Very sad but at east he is at peace and free of pain.

RIP Pedro - the naughtiest fish of all x










Thank you so much everyone for your help on this thread, and the dozen others!

I will be rehoming the loach this saturday to a friend with two others, so he can finally have some company of his own kind.

As for the tank, well i was going to sell it on gumtree, but you know what stuff the 'will give you £10 CASH' crowd, i'd rather GIVE it away to someone who needs it, like a rescue or something, i found a site that rescues fish called Fish Orphans, and they take donations of equipment, they rehome their fish in old peoples homes etc... in tanks obviously! So i'm sure all this stuff would be useful to them, it's not like its worth a lot, not exactly top of the range gear. 

So that's me retiring from the fish keeping section of the forum


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

So sorry to hear the news hun, must have been a horrible decision to make, but I agree it's the right decision.

RIP Pedro


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

So sorry to hear about Pedro, RIP mr fish. You did the right thing though i feel, and you did your absolute best to help them get through this. Sorry it didnt work out to be a happy outcome :sad:


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Hi,i am really really sorry that after all you did and all you tried he didn't recover.It's very sad news,i was thinking of you and pedro over the weekend.

R.I.P Pedro xx


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## INJAF (Nov 12, 2011)

Aw, sad news  Never a nice thing to have to do, have done it myself, but you know when they don't want to be here any more. Sounds like you did the kindest thing  And good on you for working so hard to sort out the problems.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

thanks everyone :grouphug: nice to be able to talk to people that understand!

Had a crappy day at work, felt like i had the cartoon raincloud over my head! And no-one really gets why you're upset over a fish, ah well.


After some researching, it seems Fish Orphans is no longer operating  does anyone know of a similar organisation that could make use of the tank and stuff that could collect in the London are? I have a huge tub full of stuff like medication, spare filter, water conditioners, testing kit, food etc. If not I'll put it up for sale, I'll GIVE it to a charity type rescue thing, but not someone who just wants something for free/could actually afford to pay for it.


The loach will be moving to his new home on Sunday, glad that it's soon as he looks bored on his own. He's looking at a moss ball as if it's going to play with him poor bugger!


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## Railz (Oct 30, 2010)

miss_mystra said:


> thanks everyone :grouphug: nice to be able to talk to people that understand!
> 
> Had a crappy day at work, felt like i had the cartoon raincloud over my head! And no-one really gets why you're upset over a fish, ah well.
> 
> ...


 with all the effort youve put in during this thread , id be tempted to tell you to keep the tank incase you have a change of heart , its always upsetting to lose a pet , be it a fish or a dog , in time things get better and you may kick yourself for giving it away. and the last part about the oss ball certainly made me giggle


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

I'd have to agree with ridium. Maybe pack it away and store it somewhere, and if in a few months you still feel the same way, then give it to a rescue. You might find you want it for a different sort of fish, not a goldie, and it might turn out to be a nice thing to have 

The only fish rescue I know of is in wales!! So I can't help on that front I'm afraid.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

nah, i really do want rid... i've never been interested in tropicals or marines, and i really don't fancy trying goldfish again (and they're my favourite fish) so i'm happy to let it go... if i change my mind well i can always buy another one but i doubt it very much. I always said if something happened with these then that would be it, and sadly here we are


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

im wondering if three counties pond fish rescue could use them, not sure where they are based but its worth looking into if you do want rid asap.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

Home - Three Counties Koi & Pond Fish Rescue

just found this site for them


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> Home - Three Counties Koi & Pond Fish Rescue
> 
> just found this site for them



just checked them out - seems they're quite specific with the things they want and would bin 90% of this stuff as its opened/unsealed, they only want tubs that will hold 1000L minimum... doubt they would go out their way to get this lot.  Might email them see if they know anyone though.


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