# Dart Frog Project - Progressing!



## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Firstly, thanks to all that have replied to the threads i have posted. Been a great help.

So far i have the following, and just wondering if i have missed anything blindingly obvious! (first one to say frogs gets a slap lol)

Viv in progress (thanks to richie who's been brilliant answering my stupid questions!) 75x40x40
Lucky Reptile T5 Lighting
Zoo Med Rep Fogger
Thermo/Humidity Gauge

Need (but dont have yet) ...

Some kind of live soil?
plants
some kind of side walls/background

Then around a month or so for the plants to develop, then add the DF's?

Help is much appreciated!
J


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

You don't have to wait a month, it's more to get the live soil going that the plants.


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

Cornish-J said:


> Need (but dont have yet) ...
> 
> Some kind of live soil?
> richie sells this aswell
> ...




hope this helps

ansers in red


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

how you approach all of this is your personal choice,damn right you can set up a viv and almost put frogs in straight away,or you can go to the other extreme and wait ages,i've done both,the benfits of waiting you get to train plants such as ficus get to move plants you popped in the wrong place you get to build a colony of feeders,in essence an ecosystem that your frogs will massively benefit from,and of course while all this is going on you get not only to learn about whats going on viv wise you also have had time to learn about the frogs but also about culturing all your feeders potential wild food sources etc. So although it takes forever to get going,when you do you hit the ground ,you hit it running, you're prepared when things don't go quite according to plan,hopefully,you might still have headaches because your frogs are happy,but those aren't too bad.The benefits of not waiting too long are obvious you get to play frogs sooner.
I utterly don't advocate you do what we did and wait nearly 18 months,reserch the hell out of everything,if you do i bet it comes back to bite ya,:mf_dribble::mf_dribble:.
Oh one of the first vivs i set up is still empty just around 12 months now,there are so many feeders in there i have to pull em out by the handful:blush:,don't go one extreme or the other go somewhere inbetween.
Tis little animals mate learn hard and slow and then HANG ON
best of luck with it all kiddo
Stu


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Thanks Stu, useful advice. As you say, maybe best not to rush in and balls things up, i'm going to take a little bit of time to get everything right, ensure the temp/humidity etc is stable and then look to introduce the darts.

Will post pics up soon, going up to collect the viv on sunday .. cant wait!


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> Thanks Stu, useful advice. As you say, maybe best not to rush in and balls things up, i'm going to take a little bit of time to get everything right, ensure the temp/humidity etc is stable and then look to introduce the darts.
> 
> Will post pics up soon, going up to collect the viv on sunday .. cant wait!


 Buddy there are lots of us whom will try all we got to chuck stuff at ya,guys like Richie,Chirsm and others have kept darts for ...well i think i'm old but it would be wrong to embarass them:Na_Na_Na_Na:,Ade meself and a few others are addicts,we are novices but trying to get our heads around all this,we all have different skills sometimes opinions,but i guess all really just wanna help,tis a pool of knowledge,that is growing every day. I know how desparate it is to get your first frogs mate,i SO understand,these guys are relitively easy to keep,but that homework is so key to this,its SO important.So not really advice mate just thoughts,but enjoy all the little bits of learning,growing epiphytes is weird (i really grow stuff t'was a big learing curve for me),how long does it take to get them damn woodlice really going,all little skills that add to happy frogs, to a dartman that stays,erm and thinks about the next viv instead of working,oh well,
welcome to the addiction mate
i'm off to see how that little tiny tiny mystie tad is that hatched this morning,to try and work out if we really do have a complete clutch of luecistic ,not luecamedas, eggs or not,and to marvel at that tapol thats just about to pop its front legs,whilst being watched by 2 citronella pleading starvation,and a little luec whom also might just need a top up,
keeping darts is a wonderful thing
enjoy it mate
bring it on
Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Why do you think I keep a bucket of substrate in my back room? It's been going and getting topped up for over a year now, I just keep topping it up with the ingredients and topping up the springs and woodlice every now and then, spray it regularly and chuck in some food. When I build a viv, I whack in some of it, and bingo bango, a viv that is ready to go as far as invert colony is concerned. Plants, well I find they grow better once frogs are in there, as the frogs provide a big part of the nutrients they need.

I've said all that, I still keep vivs ready to go but empty, but that's mainly because I'm a convert to getting frogs from other hobbyists, and UK Frog Day is THE best place to do this.

Ade


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## kroot (Mar 11, 2010)

I still think giving your viv a months settling time is well worth it.

My pumilio viv was set up 3 months before the frogs. It gave me time to sort some of the errors I had built in to the system. Also the custodian critters have been able to fully settle in. Means I can go on holiday and they happily feed themselves for upto 5 days. They are fat and happy so it is well worth the settling time.

Just my 2 pennies worth.


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Just out of interest, with the live soil - how long before the bugs die/get eaten? do i then have to replace the bugs that clear the frogs waste?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> Just out of interest, with the live soil - how long before the bugs die/get eaten? do i then have to replace the bugs that clear the frogs waste?


 relative to size of viv,how many frogs,and set up time so very difficult to answer,Ade's subs mix is an awsome idea. kroots 3 months totally valid to illustrate the silly extreme i mentioned earlier i have a 40cm cube set up 12 months ag,and another with 2 summersi,in, if i hadent removed so much, i'm pretty sure i could walk out on the summersi for a month and they would still be fat when i came back, proving they just wanted woodlice to eat!!! and there is still a huge number in there..... there is NO way i would do that of course.If you have enough trop woods in there at first they shouldn't need too much but springtails top up more often,there are inhibitors working with springs that don't with woods,regarding numbers.If you understand me asking how long is a bit of string this Q is like that,other factors of course are how much easier prey is there avialable how good is the particular subs for the custodians,how available are the custodians to the frogs etc etc
Dude whats your name?
Stu


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Thanks Stu, just looking through your huge thread, really interesting stuff and some fantastic breeding results etc

btw - I'm Jamie


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> Thanks Stu, just looking through your huge thread, really interesting stuff and some fantastic breeding results etc
> 
> btw - I'm Jamie


 Hey Jamie:welcome: cheers go on a bit don't i :gasp:, I said it comes back to bite ya!!Jamie when they all morph thats when the fantastic breeding results will apply!!! just fed da kids ahh man so cool all at the top little mouths going spinning gently,we love this!!
Softly softly catchy froggy:lol2:
thanks mate
regards
Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

There is actually a negative flip side to letting the inverts get too well eastablished, that been some frogs (eg. vents) will live exclusively on them given the chance (eg. vents, on springtails). But if they are eating them out of their viv, how exactly do you get those all important supplements into those toe rag frogs? lol

I tend to prefer to make sure there are enough in there just to keep them good for a few days if essential, once the frogs have been in there for a week or two. If there are so many in there that it's still swarming weeks after the frogs go in, as I once did, it can really mess up your attempts to supplement their diets.

The way around this of cause is with calcium enriched substrates (eg. clay substrates as used by some US keepers), and liquid vitamins in the misting water, but you still can't beat a good bit of Repashy on some fruit flies or weevils.

As Stu says, better to find a balanced point, rather than leave things too long. Pums are a different kettle of fish, it's a big help to go with calcium enriched substrates etc for them, as that way if they breed for you you've got calcium loaded food breeding happily in their viv. But it's still quite easy to breed those inverts in cultures outside the viv...

I don't just have my substrate bucket, at any 1 time I have 4 to 5 tubs of springtail cultures running as well.

DEFINITELY seed vivs though. It keeps them nice and clean, and gives your frogs a backup food supply.

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> There is actually a negative flip side to letting the inverts get too well eastablished, that been some frogs (eg. vents) will live exclusively on them given the chance (eg. vents, on springtails). But if they are eating them out of their viv, how exactly do you get those all important supplements into those toe rag frogs? lol
> 
> I tend to prefer to make sure there are enough in there just to keep them good for a few days if essential, once the frogs have been in there for a week or two. If there are so many in there that it's still swarming weeks after the frogs go in, as I once did, it can really mess up your attempts to supplement their diets.
> 
> ...


Just to be contrary (lol) European woodlice are sometimes considered pests in greenhouses, nibbling on roots and seedlings. Could we be storing up problems in our vivs?:lol2:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

That's ok Ron, I don't use European woodlice in my vivs. :lol2::Na_Na_Na_Na: I use tropical dwarf ones, which don't bother the plants at all, they're too busy nomming on frog poop, fungus etc. : victory: 

You actually get a funny double stage when you seed with both dwarf tropical woodlice and springtails. For the 1st year, the springs do great, multiplying lots etc, whils the woodlice just tootle along. By the 2nd year, the springtail numbers have dropped of quite a bit, but now your viv is swarming with the dwarf woodlice. That's what I have seen anyway with mine, and nope, no plant chomping from the isopods at all. The only thing annoying I have seen is springtails scoff bracket funghi I attached to my viv walls.:bash: The moral of the tale, don't bother using funghi as decor in vivs with inverts that find funghi yummy. :whistling2:

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> There is actually a negative flip side to letting the inverts get too well eastablished, that been some frogs (eg. vents) will live exclusively on them given the chance (eg. vents, on springtails). But if they are eating them out of their viv, how exactly do you get those all important supplements into those toe rag frogs? lol
> 
> I tend to prefer to make sure there are enough in there just to keep them good for a few days if essential, once the frogs have been in there for a week or two. If there are so many in there that it's still swarming weeks after the frogs go in, as I once did, it can really mess up your attempts to supplement their diets.
> 
> ...


yup gotta run with all that Ade :2thumb:i haven't had the same overload with springs but def woods,Jamie there are also possibilities of really numerous feeders stressing out the frogs by disturbance,Ade don't know whether you ever do this but the woods munch repashy,all our leftovers from dusting go in the woods cultures .
Jamie it might be worth pointing out here that there at least 3 different tropical woodlice here used as feeders,the most common is the dwarf white,buy some as soon as you can,they are slow to get going,there is also a little fast moving grey i think from peru and finally the giant orange.This last one is actually too big for darts to eat,i got a great starter from Berksmike on here about 3/4 months ago,these i intend to pop a limited number in a viv,but only when it is inhabited by frogs,the idea is they act as clean up crew and breed,the frogs eat the babies and keep population under control,so again another slght variation in grub.
I also culture some natives again for the variety,and again only feed babies to the frogs,i don't think they will do particularly well in dart vis as they are so humid but its another feed resourse for a rainy day when a big crash of feeders happens.
There is some evidence to suggest interspecies competion in vivs betwixt woods but it will take years to find out how all this fits together,stock with dwarf white and go from there i feel.
Springtails there is an even greater variety,and a huge variety of culture methods we only have 2 at presant but i'm desparate for more eventually,not including a native,we are fortunate to have.
Stu


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> That's ok Ron, I don't use European woodlice in my vivs. :lol2::Na_Na_Na_Na: I use tropical dwarf ones, which don't bother the plants at all, they're too busy nomming on frog poop, fungus etc. : victory:
> 
> You actually get a funny double stage when you seed with both dwarf tropical woodlice and springtails. For the 1st year, the springs do great, multiplying lots etc, whils the woodlice just tootle along. By the 2nd year, the springtail numbers have dropped of quite a bit, but now your viv is swarming with the dwarf woodlice. That's what I have seen anyway with mine, and nope, no plant chomping from the isopods at all. The only thing annoying I have seen is springtails scoff bracket funghi I attached to my viv walls.:bash: The moral of the tale, don't bother using funghi as decor in vivs with inverts that find funghi yummy. :whistling2:
> 
> Ade


Trust me mate, if you use 'live' leafmould, you're introducing native woodlice lump it or loath it!:lol2: I use them as frog food anyway, so I'm not bothered, and in any case, I've never noticed healthy plants suffering. As I said, I was being contrary. :Na_Na_Na_Na:

What will be interesting, when my little tropical woodlouse colony (thanks Stu!:2thumb increases enough for pioneers to be seeded into the vivs, is whether they will be able to compete with the locals? In theory, the conditions should favor them, but the native ones seem to do well enough, even at higher temps.

EDIT: @Stu: Lol, I just got this posted (eating at the time, so slow), then I saw your thoughts on the competition question! Great minds, and all that!


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Picked up my viv today from Richie, looks brilliant!

Will post some pics up tomorrow


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Here's the viv in position with the fogger system attached.


DSC_0001 by .JayD., on Flickr


DSC_0002 by .JayD., on Flickr


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## penda (Jul 22, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> That's ok Ron, I don't use European woodlice in my vivs. :lol2::Na_Na_Na_Na: I use tropical dwarf ones, which don't bother the plants at all, they're too busy nomming on frog poop, fungus etc. : victory:
> 
> You actually get a funny double stage when you seed with both dwarf tropical woodlice and springtails. For the 1st year, the springs do great, multiplying lots etc, whils the woodlice just tootle along. By the 2nd year, the springtail numbers have dropped of quite a bit, but now your viv is swarming with the dwarf woodlice. That's what I have seen anyway with mine, and nope, no plant chomping from the isopods at all. The only thing annoying I have seen is springtails scoff bracket funghi I attached to my viv walls.:bash: *The moral of the tale, don't bother using funghi as decor in vivs with inverts that find funghi yummy. :whistling2:*
> 
> Ade


i was actually going to put a question up about this but thought i might as well butt in here , hope you dont think me rude , anyways my question is , i am quite keen on fungus and go out collecting and eating wild mushroom etc etc , i find so many birch polypore which dry rather hard and would look brilliant in a viv , i understand that they will start to rott the branches theyre on after a couple years but i have loads by me so can change them , would these be ok for the tank?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Sorry Penda, haven't got a clue bud. I'd put money on the actual funghi just rotting though in the viv to be honest.

Richie's vivs really are distinctive aren't they. Such clean lines.

Ade


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

Cornish-J said:


> Here's the viv in position with the fogger system attached.
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jdaniell/6141409478/image
> DSC_0001 by .JayD., on Flickr
> ...



hiya
blimey is that a 100cm?

looks good, can't wait to c it planted up: victory:


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

It's a 75x40x40 - i cant wait to get it planted up either 

Got loads of bits arriving this week but can't really do much until the background and glue arrives.


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

Cornish-J said:


> It's a 75x40x40 - i cant wait to get it planted up either
> 
> Got loads of bits arriving this week but can't really do much until the background and glue arrives.


plan it out, work out where the wood/plants will go


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

I've got a good idea of where i want things to go  although i still need a nice bit of drift wood or two.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Try The Green Machine Online bud. They have some GORGEOUS wood on there usually.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> I've got a good idea of where i want things to go  although i still need a nice bit of drift wood or two.


 or a nice bit of english oak:mf_dribble:,tap up you local treesurgeon,or if you have one of the companies that make oakframed houses down there,Oaks are regularly felled and there is almost always some dry seasoned dead stuff on them most of the stuff we are after is only destined for firewood mate,so is as eco friendly as it gets ...especailly the ones that surgeons take down,wood don't have to cost bucks just a bit of leftfield thought,having lived down your neck of the wood i can see the appeal of drift wood,i have no knowledge to say don't utilise this resourse Jamie just a random concearn about the salt it might carry
Stu


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

T5 lighting arrived and installed and got the fogger on a digital timer now.

More pics later.

Got the glue through today, just waiting for the background to arrive .. ordered it ages ago!!


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

penda said:


> i was actually going to put a question up about this but thought i might as well butt in here , hope you dont think me rude , anyways my question is , i am quite keen on fungus and go out collecting and eating wild mushroom etc etc , i find so many birch polypore which dry rather hard and would look brilliant in a viv , i understand that they will start to rott the branches theyre on after a couple years but i have loads by me so can change them , would these be ok for the tank?


 So far as I can find, polypore is considered inedible (bitter-tasting) but not poisonous, so it's unlikely to cause any harm in your tank, even second-hand (ie eaten by prey which are then eaten by frogs). So you should be fine to use it.


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Well a busy afternoon, the background arrived.

Cut it to size (leaving a slight gap at the bottom as advised)


DSC_0002 by .JayD., on Flickr

Glued and used some heavy objects to keep pressure applied ... knew these would come in handy one day...


DSC_0005 by .JayD., on Flickr

Finished!


DSC_0006 by .JayD., on Flickr


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

Cornish-J said:


> Well a busy afternoon, the background arrived.
> 
> Cut it to size (leaving a slight gap at the bottom as advised)
> 
> ...


looks nice :2thumb: can't wait to c the finished article (hurry up!!!:lol2:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I am going to say something short, and to the point (for a change). Cork branches (not tubes).

Ade


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Wolfenrook said:


> I am going to say something short, and to the point (for a change). Cork branches (not tubes).
> 
> Ade


Sorry mate .. i need the long version lol


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I've had a drink, which means if I type too much it will be a bunch of very long and complex words.

So instead, I'll let a picture do the talking.










Cork branches+cork=match.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> Well a busy afternoon, the background arrived.
> 
> Cut it to size (leaving a slight gap at the bottom as advised)
> 
> ...


Good stuff Jamie,also can't wait to see what you do with it,mate 2 silly things...whats the ^ shape for in the front panel of glass below the doors? second always have your viv on a polystyrene tile or something similar,if the is any conflict between a slightly uneven surface and glass the glass never wins,have heard of many vivs with cracked floors,just a silly precaution thats always worth doing
be lucky mate
Stu


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

The v shape is a peice of glass that cracked - i guess i must have put slightly too much pressure on it when - luckily it doesnt effect the viv in anyway other than the aesthetics but i'm still a bit pissed off with myself about it.

Thanks for the advice though Stu about the tile, i will look get one - where do you get yours?

Thanks Ade btw for the full explaination


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Here's a pic from today, got the soil in and just threw some bits and peices in i bought - this is not where everything will go etc, just thought i'd throw it in for effect ...


DSC_0007 by .JayD., on Flickr


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

DSC_0009 by .JayD., on Flickr


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Nice! Get some magnolia or oak leaves in there and it will look great. Java Moss grows really well on cocu huts.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> The v shape is a peice of glass that cracked - i guess i must have put slightly too much pressure on it when - luckily it doesnt effect the viv in anyway other than the aesthetics but i'm still a bit pissed off with myself about it.
> 
> Thanks for the advice though Stu about the tile, i will look get one - where do you get yours?
> 
> Thanks Ade btw for the full explaination


 no worries mate...oooo that was a close call its so perfect i didn't think break,glass is unforgivingwierd stuff to work with!!! When your cutting,a big sheet mate it bends,gives me the shivers:lol2: one of the diy places for the tiles,doesn't have to be polystyrene mate just something that givesa bit,you don't want hard to hard with glass.
Buddy great start on the viv:mf_dribble:more little things i know your just starting this so will move stuff anyway),moss doesn't tend to grow on the floor,it would be covered by the leaves,so just up a bit,on bits of wood,coco huts etc as morgan says. Jamie when we got our first frogs i was absolutly shocked at how much the leaflitter is used by them,again to repeat Morgan lots of leaves on top of your subs,the frogs feed there use it to dive into for hiding, essential, now for me, in a dart viv,can't have too much leaflitter.Another thing the top layer of leaves dry quick,this provides a dry place for frogs feet, can't stress this aspect enough mate...plenty of leaves,when you finally put your frogs in you'll see why i'm stressing this the minute they have settled down.
seeya 
Stu


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

Cornish-J said:


> *The v shape is a peice of glass that cracked - i guess i must have put slightly too much pressure on it when* - luckily it doesnt effect the viv in anyway other than the aesthetics but i'm still a bit pissed off with myself about it.
> 
> Thanks for the advice though Stu about the tile, i will look get one - where do you get yours?
> 
> Thanks Ade btw for the full explaination


It doesnt take much pressure to break, some people do it when putting the background in they lean on it without thinking, i did it myself a few years ago :bash:. You could always cover the whole piece of glass with a piece of wide black tape or similar if you wanted

Richie


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I have extremely long arms, so never had the problem. lol

Ade


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Finally got the viv planted and final layout done - adding a couple more plants and some leaves and a peice of wood of some kind.

anyway, here's a couple pics.


Dart Frog Viv Progressing by .JayD., on Flickr


Dart Frog Viv Progressing by .JayD., on Flickr


Dart Frog Viv Progressing by .JayD., on Flickr


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

Cornish-J said:


> Finally got the viv planted and final layout done - adding a couple more plants and some leaves and a peice of wood of some kind.
> 
> anyway, here's a couple pics.
> 
> ...


that looks great

love the brom in the corner


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

hey Jaime i guess we've talked long enough now for you hopefully to not take this the wrong way,buddy its a lovely lawn, but when you get your wood pull it up and pop that moss on the wood,get them more hiding places more climbing frame,then where your lawn was stuff them down a nice good wadge of leaves,buddy they will love you for it...I promise!! I realise its a work in progress mate,and we do see moss lawns in vivs but i don't think its best for our frogs,and it just doesn't look right,for the frogs in a little glass box we have to max their fun by playing to their needs,that means leaves on the floor,you'll see if you go there,ha and they are superb for us to watch the frogs too nowt better than a leuc standing almost on its head trying to nail somit in the leaflitter
regards
Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I'm glad Stu brought that up. lol

He's right though, the moss doesn't look right used as a lawn like that. It's more Iwagumi than rainforest floor. As he said, we all know there are lots of people who do moss carpets, but they aren't actually trying to make their viv look like a forest floor, they're tying to make them look like a Capability Brown landscape.

The moss will also be healthier for longer mounted up on some nice wood. Then cover the floor in a nice thick layer of leaf litter (dead and dried leaves). The leaves also provide a home and food supply for springtails and isopods that dart keepers use to keep the viv clean and as supplemental food for your frogs. Oh and if you have ever seen a rainforest floor where many darts are found in photographs or on TV they are seriously covered in leaf litter. I was really pleased to see this born out on an episode of Man V Monster recently (the spider one) on Nat Geo, where he found a ventrimaculata dart frog (his horror and panic was hillarious to see. lol). It was mooching around in THICK leaf litter, right there on the ground, nowhere near a tree.  Reflected by my frogs, which are always bolder when I have a nice thick layer of leaf litter in their vivs. It does have to be periodically replaced though, as with the high humidity it breaks down quite quickly, but that's even more food for those all important springs and woodlice. :2thumb:

Another thing you can do with moss is to pin it to your cork panels. It will help to green them up nicely.

Ade


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Yea i do plan to get some wood and leaves in there, to be honest i only laid all the moss like that so it can get some watering until i get the wood and leaves sorted 

Thanks for pointing that out though, all this help is much appreciated and certainly not aposed to any constructive criticism 

Thanks again to you 3 guys, Stu, Ade and Fardilis


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Also, bit of a stupid question i expect but ..

if i pin the moss to the cork background, will it actually grow/spread and properly attach itself??


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> Also, bit of a stupid question i expect but ..
> 
> if i pin the moss to the cork background, will it actually grow/spread and properly attach itself??


Yes it will.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

IMO you can get away with a moss floor if there's LOADS of hiding places. My leaf litter has literally been completely flattened so it may aswell be moss. I have an excessive amount of plant cover, savu pods etc though.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I suppose when the moss rots from been on the floor it will be ok for springtails eh Paul? lol

It's not just about hiding places with the leaves bud, it's about providing a good environment for the 'soil' invertebrates. 

Ade


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Screw those arseholes.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Screw those arseholes.


:Na_Na_Na_Na: you love us really:gasp:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I think he meant the springtails and woodlice Stu. lol

Or at least, he better had. lol


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

Ade you never can tell with mr freeman :whistling2:

Richie


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Hey guys,

Another busy day, me and my gf have pretty much finished the tank now. 

Took your advice and stripped out a big section of moss and added some oak leaves.

Let me know what you think 


Dart Frog Viv Progressing by .JayD., on Flickr


Dart Frog Viv Progressing by .JayD., on Flickr


Dart Frog Viv Progressing by .JayD., on Flickr


Dart Frog Viv Progressing by .JayD., on Flickr


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I think it looks absolutely brilliant now! The difference the wood and leaf litter have made.

Good job.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Another busy day, me and my gf have pretty much finished the tank now.
> 
> ...


Yeah mate your getting there:no1: buddy am gonna try and push ya a bit furthur,see if you can get one more bit of wood up against a side so they have some climbing other than pure vertical,but Jaime i'm starting to be a proper picky old git now,its really good mate.....REALLY GOOD.i'm pushing because often they like to roost high a bit of wood maybe with some film cans attached will allow them access to the top of the viv in a relaxed mode,often they like to chill high up. 
but i can't stress how much more we like it mate not with words anyhow,good for you buddy:notworthy:,getting to be a properly cool viv
WELLDONE SIR
Stu


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

soundstounite said:


> Yeah mate your getting there:no1: buddy am gonna try and push ya a bit furthur,see if you can get one more bit of wood up against a side so they have some climbing other than pure vertical,but Jaime i'm starting to be a proper picky old git now,its really good mate.....REALLY GOOD.i'm pushing because often they like to roost high a bit of wood maybe with some film cans attached will allow them access to the top of the viv in a relaxed mode,often they like to chill high up.
> but i can't stress how much more we like it mate not with words anyhow,good for you buddy:notworthy:,getting to be a properly cool viv
> WELLDONE SIR
> Stu


haha thanks Stu and Ade! ... about the extra bit of wood .. gimme a few days


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Jaime, bit confused bud, what frogs are you planning to put in there?

Just curious, as Stu's bit about more wood, film pots etc, is very specific, there are lots of frogs that would be just fine with the viv just as it is. For many a highers perch is pretty much optional, the open floor space and some coco huts are more to their taste. Ok, so as youngsters tincs climb a fair bit, but it's not totally essential. As to film pots, my tincs ignor em these days. They prefer to use coco huts and/or naturally formed hiding spots (like a hollow under some flat wood for example).

So needing more vertical spaces is going to be dependant on what frogs you are planning on. Other than that, it's just a matter of personal taste that Stu likes a bit of vertical wood and some film pots, don't feel boung that you have to do this.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

:2thumb:
J what are you think of as inhabitants...where are ya drawn mate?
Stu


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Well our first choice is 4 sexed azureus but these seem to be hard to come by and expensive.

Our second preference would be 4 sub adult leucs.

These seem to be the best speices to start with as a noobie.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I wouldn't go the 4 azureas route bud. Trios worm sometimes (male heavy), pairs are preferred for breeding though. It can be a bit tough getting sexed frogs, but if you persevere you will succeed, I did. If you like azureas though, have a look at some of the other tinctorius, just avoid Regina and adult citronella. Regina are VERY touchy about stress and moving (to the point where they are considered the most difficult tinc, as I found out when I started with them as my first darts. lol), from what I am told citronella become touchy about moving once mature. Good place to look at quite a lot of the morphs Dendrobates tinctorius morphguide, many of those will be available at UK Frog Day, including some mature enough to sex if the last one was anything to go by. Tincs, including Azureas, would be perfectly happy with your viv as it is now.

Leucs, well if you go with leucs I would agree with Stu, mine love to climb and perch.

Given your desire for a group though (leucs are ok in groups, but... lol) don't overlook auratus. They're gorgeous frogs, again would probably be quite happy with that viv, do ok in groups, and are good for beginners. Again, another good morph guide for them Dendrobates auratus Morphguide. As a guide, blue and black are usually known to be very shy, along with many of the 'bronze/brown' morphs. El Cope and Costa Rican green and black both have better reputations for been more bold. I firmly believe with any frog that can be shy though the trick is TONS of leaf litter, replaced regularly, along with TONS of natural hiding places (under and in plants, under wood and decor etc). The closer they are at all times to somewhere they can bold, the less they will from my experience.

Ok, my experience with shy frogs is mainly with my ameerega bassieri sisa, but I have read the same is true for auratus as well.

Hope this helps Jaime.

Ade


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Thanks for the help Ade - when you say they sometimes 'worm' .. what does that mean? 

The auratus are really nice, especially like the el cope - what's the deal with these in groups if unsexed. Can 4 get along without any trouble? ie: will the females fight or anything if more than one?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> Thanks for the help Ade - when you say they sometimes 'worm' .. what does that mean?
> 
> The auratus are really nice, especially like the el cope - what's the deal with these in groups if unsexed. Can 4 get along without any trouble? ie: will the females fight or anything if more than one?


 he means work i think mate,tinc females can be very intolerant of each other VERY INTOLERANT !!!!,a male high trio can sometimes work well because there is less agressive competion between the males,and the sparing can sometimes result in better fertility.I agree with Ade new tincs need to be watched carefully,in my case we have had slight problems with a male stressing after move as Ade said a citronella and our new macheto female seems more settled again than her friend.
We have a group of five leucs we saw agreesion between 2 boys and proper wrestling the works for about 2 days but they CBA'sed after that.
we have 2 groups of auratus 3 superblues,one very bold lass one getting there and a seriously shy fella so 2 girls,the shy ness is what puts most folks off auratus but they are very good starter frogs,i think actually better than tincs just going off what Ade and i have seen,once they settle in (tincs) they are way bolder maybe this is food driven:gasp: they have one hell of an apetite our citronella,will come and stand on the mesh watching us to see if we will feed them,howeverful they are,almost pleading starvation.
i was told i might have to split the 2 breeding auratus females up but no problems so far,they even sleep together.We also have a group of 5 panama special auratus,they are getting bolder all the time,but i don't know that they will evr be as bold as our tincs are they will be utterly stunning as adults but it'll be 2/3 yrs before they look their best.
Personally i think auratus and leucs to be the most bomb proof beginners frog luecs have a wicked call auratus are superbly understated in colour but the mettalic blues/greens are awsome in the flesh.I think tincs are a bit more delicate,especially when they get moved,though once moved and settled way bolder. but not a group frog one other potential candidate is orange galactonus,some of these are outrageously beautiful. We have had no agression so far whatsoever with our auratus,but it could happen,and you are going to have real problems sexing them even as adults,we know our ss's only because of the egg laying and breeding,their call is very very quiet,ha and difficult to place
regards
Stu


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

*If* (and I do mean if!:lol2 I ever do succumb to the dart bug, I think leucs would be my first choice- they seem much less complicated than most species, in terms of behaviour, feeding, everything.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Shockingly, I don't have auratus. I do however have tincs (including azureas) and leucs. Knowing what I know now, it would have been nice to have started with auratus. lol

Leucs are very simple to keep, and very very greedy. lol

Tincs, greedy, but not so great in groups. A few morphs are a bit touchy, but a lot of them are pretty simple.

They're all good frogs though, it's personal choice. I will say though, tincs you would have a LOT more choice of morph, but you might find yourself regretting using such a big viv for just 2 or 3. El Cope are, I agree, absolutely gorgeous frogs, in the flesh they are even more stunning than in photographs, and they are especially stunning on leaf litter.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> *If* (and I do mean if!:lol2 I ever do succumb to the dart bug, I think leucs would be my first choice- they seem much less complicated than most species, in terms of behaviour, feeding, everything.


 :lol2:...you know you want to:gasp:!!! I don't think there is too much difference between them and auratus ron,not from what i've seen so far anyway,i think the leucs are just a bit more tolerant of temp variation,excepted wisdom is start with luecs....(buy a bigger gaff and get the rest:whistling2...i ain't gonna ague with that.
I think that you should just get on with it now mate,you'll do a great job of looking out for them, and although we are obsessed one group won't cause YOU that much more to do
Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Ron Magpie said:


> *If* (and I do mean if!:lol2 I ever do succumb to the dart bug, I think leucs would be my first choice- they seem much less complicated than most species, in terms of behaviour, feeding, everything.


As far as I am concerned, a fair few darts are easier to keep than White's tree frogs. What's so complicated about managing humidity and culturing fruit flies, weevils and springtails? Beats the hell out of buying stinky crickets that chirp constantly. I wont even get started on the breeding side of things.

The shocking truth.:lol2:

Ade


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Thanks guys, so 4 azzeys in a ratio of 3m 1f is a bad idea then?

If that's the case I think i will go for the leucs.

Right, better get ready for my hour of pain lol  speak to you guys in a bit


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## FrogNick (Jul 2, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> Thanks guys, so 4 azzeys in a ratio of 3m 1f is a bad idea then?
> 
> If that's the case I think i will go for the leucs.
> 
> Right, better get ready for my hour of pain lol  speak to you guys in a bit



Hi,

If you get 4 young azures and they grow up together they generally will be fine, your chance of breeding them in a group in that size viv will be reduced though. So depends if you want them as a display frog or for breeding. Another option would go well is a group of 4 are orange glacs very beautify frogs too should be some for sale at the UKFD.

your spoilt for choice 

thanks

Nick


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Why is breeding reduced if they're in a group?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Because they will destroy each others eggs.

Ade


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

ah right ok.

But wouldnt you take the eggs out and manually raise them?


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Just reserved 3x 6month old leucs


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> Just reserved 3x 6month old leucs


 congrats,you'll love em
stu


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Well finally finished the viv - just did a little rearranging this morning and i'm now really pleased with the final product!


Dart Frog Viv Finished! by .JayD., on Flickr


Dart Frog Viv Finished! by .JayD., on Flickr


Dart Frog Viv Finished! by .JayD., on Flickr


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

cool bring on the leucs:mf_dribble:
Stu


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

hehe Thanks Stu. They'll be moving in exactly a week today!


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## marcuswinner1 (Sep 24, 2009)

looking good!


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Well picked up my leucs yesterday evening, they are now in the tank and have been for around 24hours. Looking happy and settled in, very active and exploring their new surroundings 

Will get some pictures later.


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Just a quick pic of one of them...


Leucomelas Dart Frog by .JayD., on Flickr


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Gorgeous! I'm still resisting darts, but...:whistling2:


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

Nice one j and welcome to the world of dartfrogs, first of many i would imagine :2thumb:

Richie


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

Ron Magpie said:


> Gorgeous! I'm still resisting darts, but...:whistling2:


for now


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Ron Magpie said:


> Gorgeous! I'm still resisting darts, but...:whistling2:


I'll be succinct, why are you resisting?



richie.b said:


> Nice one j and welcome to the world of dartfrogs, first of many i would imagine :2thumb:
> 
> Richie


Many many many many many I'm certain. lol

Once they get a hold of you, there is no turning back. You just HAVE to have that frog you find out you can get..... It's an addiction.

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

'Cos they are a faff! Ok, thanks to Stu I have a tropical woodlouse culture up and running, but fruitfly cultures, 'UV or not to V', hand-spraying or mister etc etc- even reed frogs, small as they are, are less hassle. Actually, I've got a spare Exo (although absolutely *nowhere* to put it); I'm considering getting some more reed frogs.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

It's not half as bad as it sounds Ron. The only bit that some folks might dislike are the fruit flies. Me, I found them a snap, especially if you don't try to be cheap and just use Super Fly. lol Heck, you CAN at a push even feed hatchling crickets to darts, the snap em up quite happily. The down side is when they get away and grow, and destroy your gorgeous live plants. lol

As to UV vs no UV, UV for me. Put it this way, if the frogs don't like it, they wont sit under it... If they do, they will. You can easily overdose with supplements, you can NEVER overdose with UV unless you do something crazy. It's just a light tube though, and I have as many dart vivs sans UV as with.

Space is the best argument bud. However, I have a feeling that if you want to you WILL fit a viv in. 

I will say though, using an exo you're asking for faff, unless it's already converted?

I've said it before, and I will say it again. I know everybody is different, but I find darts easier to keep than my White's tree frogs. Their food is cheaper, I don't have to heat their vivs (I don't the White's in the summer either. lol) and I don't have to faff around with rain chambers if I want to breed them.  Now THAT is faffing. lol

I promise you Ron, give in and you will never ever look back or regret the decision.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> Just a quick pic of one of them...
> 
> [URL="http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6052/6223239145_dbc98c0c4b_b.jpg"]image[/URL]
> Leucomelas Dart Frog by .JayD., on Flickr


 OOORRRAAA
very cool mate,let em settle and then we want more piccs please
well done kiddo ENJOY
Stu


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> 'Cos they are a faff! Ok, thanks to Stu I have a tropical woodlouse culture up and running, but fruitfly cultures, 'UV or not to V', hand-spraying or mister etc etc- even reed frogs, small as they are, are less hassle. Actually, I've got a spare Exo (although absolutely *nowhere* to put it); I'm considering getting some more reed frogs.


 I've been watching you slowly cave in now for nearly 2 yrs:whistling2:,you know you want them,the battle is nearly lost Ron:mf_dribble:Hmm i might just get shaz to send ya some poor homeless ff's,i know how much you love animals you'll have to look after em,then you;ll have too many and .....THEN:lol2: just be greatful the luecs aren't laying mate:gasp:.
oh dude just give in now,its gonna be easier than keeping them:whistling2::lol2:
Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Just to show Ron what he could be working towards one day having, if he just gave into darts:Oophaga Pumilio "Punta Clara" - WOW!.

Sorry about the hijack J, you might like a nose at the pics in that thread as well.  Not really for beginners, but I feel really do give folks something to aim for. 

Ade


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## About-Snakes.com (Aug 25, 2011)

very nice job here!! impressive build


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Thanks all, any tips for ensuring they eat OK??

i'm putting flies in but they dont seems to be attacking them straight away - i guess theyre not completely adept at hunting yet.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Sounds like you are feeding hydei to juvies? I had a similar problem with most of my larger frogs (tincs and leucs) as juveniles. Easily sorted by feeding them wingless mels and springtails, which they dived on like you wouldn't believe.

If you are feeding mels already, try springtails.  Could be that they are still so young that they still want springtails.

Ade


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Thanks Ade, I'll get some now!


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Leucomelas Dart Frog by .JayD., on Flickr


Leucomelas Dart Frog by .JayD., on Flickr


Leucomelas Dart Frog by .JayD., on Flickr


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

curious...how old are they J? again agree with the above...all our little guys go for springs,not quite sure how quick ootw but pretty soon,what was the previous owner feeding? what vits?
Stu


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

I got them from a reputable shop, they are apparently less than 6 months old. The previous owner was feeding flies and the occasional micro cricket - dont think they were using any vitamins etc


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

no vits...shakes head:gasp:,did they take the springs mate? cool frogs buddy you'll have alot of fun with them for sure congrats again
stu


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

I've got calcium plus so will start giving them that - havent given them the springs yet. have ordered some in - only got flies here atm


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

If they've been taking flies before, that shouldn't be the problem, though, even if springs would be better. They might just be taking their time settling in to their new home.


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

The tank they were in before was very bare and hunting flies was like shooting fish in a barrel, now they have to really hunt for their food and i wonder if they're struggling a bit


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Put a piece of banana in when you add the flies, they should surround it. Easy meal.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I'd completely forgotten that old tip!:lol2:


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## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Gorgeous frogs, and a great build. Keep going as this is a fascinating thread. Your even making me want some darts now.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

zekee said:


> Gorgeous frogs, and a great build. Keep going as this is a fascinating thread. Your even making me want some darts now.


Do. It.


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Just added a peice of banana in there, flies are all over it but the frogs havent discovered the fly covered treasure chest yet!


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## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Are they hard to keep. Sorry I don't mean to hijack the thread. Will use the search facility.


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Have a look at the stickys - some really useful information on there.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

zekee said:


> Are they hard to keep. Sorry I don't mean to hijack the thread. Will use the search facility.


 nah you just have to be prepared,read read read
bring it on
Stu


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> Just added a peice of banana in there, flies are all over it but the frogs havent discovered the fly covered treasure chest yet!


 J give em time dude,they aren't thin,they'll be fine do you have any dwarf white in there? if they haven't seen dust before that might just put em off...but not once they are hugrey well we aint seen that anyway,usually manifests itself as a frog striking and spitting out,though not disinterest.
J let me put this into perspective for you,our auratus male we did not see for 3 weeks,after the first day or so,we actually thought dead and went hunting,he was fat as hell,but we never saw him feed,still only do occassionally now but getting better. 
Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I didn't see my female tinctorius Regina eating for a few weeks when I got her. I saw both the males eating, and they were the ones I lost. She is still going strong.

I'd just pop some springs in there, and see how things go. Odds are they will be highly tempted by the springtails.

Oh, and for the record my leucs were the shyist frogs I had for a VERY long time, before they finally settled and turned into the bold frogs they are so well known as. It could even be that they are intimidated by the flies. lol

Ade


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Thanks guys, eases my worries.

more pics!


Leucomelas Dart Frog by .JayD., on Flickr


Leucomelas Dart Frog by .JayD., on Flickr


Leucomelas Dart Frog by .JayD., on Flickr


Leucomelas Dart Frog by .JayD., on Flickr


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Looking great! They are bolder than my leucs at this point, couldn't even get pics of them.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I'm liking the cork panels- I know they are pricy, but looking seriously good, in close up.


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## Gaz_dbd (Apr 30, 2009)

gorgeous little frogs, mine were really bold it only took them a couple of weeks to settle

now as soon as i enter the room my one remaining comes out to greet me and will quite often sit watching me,


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

By any chance Gaz when you were watching those leucs, was one of their back toes vibrating like mad? They look like they are hunting, and if their toes were vibrating this would support this.

Ade


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

So the toe tapping thing means they're in hunt mode?


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## Gaz_dbd (Apr 30, 2009)

not that ive notcied, i will try to check mine out tonight

i used to watch them hunt, as there was a big pile of springs right near the front, (conveniently placed i know)


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

There was quite a bit of discussion on this, and the conclusion was it's an excitement reflex in many of the dendrobates. Most often seen when excited by hunting, sometimes seen when, uhm, otherwise excited. lol

One theory proposed was the vibration panicks the food, so it runs, making it easier to spot and NOM. I think frogs though struggle to separate feeding excitement from other forms of excitement. lol You've probably seen yourself by now how if food keeps perfectly still a frog will often either ignore it or sit and stare at it until it moves? 

Ade


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

lol yea, the flies are smarter than i previously gave them credit for, they do stay extremely still when the frogs are in close proximity.


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## Gaz_dbd (Apr 30, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> One theory proposed was the vibration panicks the food, so it runs, making it easier to spot and NOM. I think frogs though struggle to separate feeding excitement from other forms of excitement. lol You've probably seen yourself by now how if food keeps perfectly still a frog will often either ignore it or sit and stare at it until it moves?
> 
> Ade


yeah, ive seem him sit staring at them, then climbing on a load just to get to one specific spring

same with flies, but they confused the poor guy, too many moving too quickly to know which one he wanted to munch


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I've seen flies on heads sit there without being noticed.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> There was quite a bit of discussion on this, and the conclusion was it's an excitement reflex in many of the dendrobates. Most often seen when excited by hunting, sometimes seen when, uhm, otherwise excited. lol
> 
> One theory proposed was the vibration panicks the food, so it runs, making it easier to spot and NOM. I think frogs though struggle to separate feeding excitement from other forms of excitement. lol You've probably seen yourself by now how if food keeps perfectly still a frog will often either ignore it or sit and stare at it until it moves?
> 
> Ade


Not just dendrobates; bufonoid toads do it all the time, and I've seen it in treefrogs and reed frogs too. FBTs don't wait long enough to _get_ excited, of course!:lol2:


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Another pic of the fantastic markings..


PDF1 by .JayD., on Flickr


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Just got our second group of 3 from dartfrog - now have 6, all seem to be getting along fine - will post pics soon


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> Just got our second group of 3 from dartfrog - now have 6, all seem to be getting along fine - will post pics soon


cool wait till they start calling mate tis luvverly
Stu


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

PDF4 by .JayD., on Flickr


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

PDF5 by .JayD., on Flickr


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## Gaz_dbd (Apr 30, 2009)

awesome pic, it looks like a leuc army!!

my 4 are still exploring their new tank


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## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Im sold on these now! New to the hobby, trying to decide what I would like to keep. Your pictures have sold Leucs to me. Thank you. Oh awesome pics by the way. What camera do you use?


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Thanks mate  they are fantastic little frogs. Really active!

I'm using a nikon D90 - need a macro lense though!


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## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Might look at that camera, need a new one mines rubbish. Going to read all this thread now, doing my research so I can keep some next year. Beautiful animals.


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Well these are my first dart frogs .. first frogs of any kind in fact so you may find a bit of useful info in the thread, if not, just ask.


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## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Yeah will do mate. Am having a read now.


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## Kaben (Nov 13, 2011)

Jamie - I have to say, thank you so much for making this thread and all of your others. You have pretty much asked every question on my checklist and the members here have given you some awesome feedback and advice. Thanks again for doing all of the hard work for me!

You have an amazing vivarium going and i am hugely envious of it. I have never kept Dendros before either and i am looking at getting 3 or 4 Auratus "El Cope". That said - im getting more and more sold on Leucs as i read your posts and view your youtube videos!

When people say that the Auratus can be shy - how much bolder are leucs in comparison. i know its almost impossible to set a scale for this kind of thing but how much difference in activity are we talking between a leuc and an Auratus?

Sorry to thread hijack. One last question for you, In the photos of your vivarium just before you added your first leucs, did you take the font doors off? I cant see the door seam at all?!

As an avid photographer I am very keen to have clear access to the frogs from time to time ( I dont intend to bother them too often, but when i do want images i want clear macros shots). I had been looking at the Exo-Terra version for that reason as the doors look fab for visibility. How do you rate the doors on Richies vivs?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Kaben said:


> When people say that the Auratus can be shy - how much bolder are leucs in comparison. i know its almost impossible to set a scale for this kind of thing but how much difference in activity are we talking between a leuc and an Auratus?


I've seen 8 auratus tanks and only ever seen one auratus if that helps.

I actually found Azureus to be bolder than my leucs, who took a while to come around, I think I was just unlucky though. They were still out 75% of the time, if not more.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Kaben said:


> As an avid photographer I am very keen to have clear access to the frogs from time to time ( I dont intend to bother them too often, but when i do want images i want clear macros shots). I had been looking at the Exo-Terra version for that reason as the doors look fab for visibility. How do you rate the doors on Richies vivs?


If Richie is using optiwhite glass on all his new vivs, which I think he is, you won't find clearer anywhere.

No, I'm not getting paid by him, optiwhite is just the ultimate for clear glass.


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## Kaben (Nov 13, 2011)

Wow - cheers for teh speedy reply Morgan!

Thats a bit of a bummer about the auratus activity - i was sold on them as being good for groups and being especially beautiful to look at. 

As for the vivs - I guess on the Exo's it was the fact i could open the doors and have camera access to the whole viv at once without having to bang sliding doors about and terrify the little guys.

All else on Richies vivs look superior in every way.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I think he can build a single opening door?

Exos need a lot of modifying for dart frogs, ends up costing a lot. Depending on the species, opening the door doesn't really scare them away as long as you do it slowly. I've had cameras a few inches from my frogs face before.


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Firstly, thanks for the kind words Kaben 

Yea ritchie can do single door conversions depending on the size of the viv, if it's too big then a single door becomes unpractical. And yea he uses optiwhite glass which is super clear.

I've found that i can open the doors to feed or do a little viv maintenance etc and the leucs dont seem too bothered at all, they only move if my hand passes extremely close. So with regards to macro shooting, as long as you've got a reasonable working distance you should be fine to open the doors and not scare them.

Activity - I dont have any experience with anything but leucs so hard for me to give any info (although morgan has sumed it up i think). All i know is my leucs are right out in the open most of the time. I'll try and get another video later on.


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## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Can we have a link to your youtube channel please?


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

my channel?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

zekee said:


> Can we have a link to your youtube channel please?





Cornish-J said:


> my channel?


Exo Terra Monsoon - Leucomelas Dart Frog Viv - YouTube


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

New video uploading as we speak


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## Kaben (Nov 13, 2011)

Haha, i seem to have made you into a video celebrity Jamie :lol:
Cant wait for the next instalment though!

When i was aksing about the doors - i was referncing these pictures you posted. 
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/9036293-post77.html

Did you take the doors off for these? I cant see the centre crossover of the sliding glass plates anywhere!


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Yea i took the doors out completely for those pictures, the only thing you see when closed and in is a small strip of silicone to stop the flies escaping .. although some always seem to find a way!


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## Kaben (Nov 13, 2011)

Cornish-J said:


> Yea i took the doors out completely for those pictures, the only thing you see when closed and in is a small strip of silicone to stop the flies escaping .. although some always seem to find a way!


Ah i thought so!
Is that a fairly easy job or do you have to take other bits of trim off of the viv to remove the doors?


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

No, it is very easy, nothing else needs removing.

the top of the viv is kinda flexible, so you move both peices of glass to the centre and then ease the top of the viv up about 0.5cm and the glass will then fall out towards the inside of the viv.

hopefully that makes sense lol


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## Kaben (Nov 13, 2011)

Ah that's excellent news - thanks for taking the time to reply, i really appreciate it.

Im going to seriosuly consider one of Richie's vivs - im still confused by the arrangement of glass on teh lower section for the false bottom.


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

which bits are confusing you mate?


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## Kaben (Nov 13, 2011)

Cornish-J said:


> which bits are confusing you mate?


i was just wondering why teh gulley needed to be left clear - could it not be filled with a loose or gravely substreate taht would still allow drainage? 

( i appreciate this is probably more of a question for Richie.B).

I will take these question elsewhere and stop hi-jacking your thread now!


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

nah its fine mate. 

The gulley doesnt need to be left empty - i'm not sure many do leave it empty because the last thing you want is the frog falling in there and drowning with the excess water.

Mine is filled with hydroleca - this will absorb the excess water that drains from the tank (which so far hasnt been any btw)

you'll see this clearly from my pics.. (just realised every pic of my viv was taken before i added hydroleca lol .. my bad!)



ps: sigh at this video taking another 120 minutes to upload!


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Here's my photostream on flickr - shows lots of progress pictures of the viv (might be of some help to you later on)

Flickr: .JayD.'s Photostream


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

Kaben said:


> Wow - cheers for teh speedy reply Morgan!
> 
> Thats a bit of a bummer about the auratus activity - i was sold on them as being good for groups and being especially beautiful to look at.
> 
> ...


Exo door's are terrible peticuarly on the larger ones as there held in by weak plastic, anyone with a large exo will tell you that the plastic that hold's the doors in place flexes as it open's and it dosn't take much force for the door's to fall off. and if the door's fall off you can't buy replacment's.

also richie can make viv's with a single door conversion but i'm sure he could tell you better than me.


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## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Great video's!


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