# Advice Sought - Tarantulas keep dying on me



## the-pipster (Feb 1, 2010)

Hi,

If any of you have the time to respond I will be very grateful. I have kept tarantulas for over several years buying them as 1cm spiderlings and growing them on. This year I have lost 7 and despite searching the net I can't establish a cause. I saw 3 of them in the characteristic death pose and tried to drop feed water but with no luck.

*Acanthoscurria geniculata*
1cm - died after 2 weeks
1.5cm - died after 4 weeks
2.5 cm - died after 3 weeks

*Psalmopoeus irminia*
8cm -died after 8 months

*Chromatopelma cyaneopubescens*
7cm - died after 6 months

*Brachypelma verdezi*
1cm - died after 3 weeks

*Nhandu carapoensis*
0.75cm - died after 2 weeks

My apartment is 2 years old (lived in it since new) which has a special ventilation/heat extraction system which provides constant fresh air maintaining the ambient temperature 22-24 degrees all year long (I monitor this and the temperature in the big tanks).

I only keep new world tarantulas.

Pots/tanks related to size and arboreal/terrestrial species. I drill plenty of holes in them with hole width dependent on tarantula size. The tiny slings I make holes with a heated paper-clip end. 

I use vermiculite for bedding. I spray once a week but take care not to drench the bedding, especially if they come from dry/desert regions. I have tried peat moss in the past but stopped using it after a week as it grew fungus.

I feed according to size with slings having cricket heads. My crickets are from a reputable supplier. I try to remove any uneaten food every day but sometimes forget (after a busy 12 hour shift at work). The longest I have left uneaten cricket heads is 3 days.

I don't handle my tarantulas and minimal disturbance when feeding spraying. They are kept in a hallway with no natural light. I do not use water bowls.

My other spiderlings have flourished with my set-up -

Brachypelma smithi 1cm - now 12cm 
Grammostola pulchra 1cm - now 5cm
Lasiodora parahybana 1.5cm - now 16cm
Grammostola pulchripes 1cm - now 12cm
Tapinauchenius gigas 1.5cm - now 10cm
Tapinauchenius cupreus 1cm - now 7cm


I can only come up with 2 explanations -


mother nature - you just take pot luck with spiderlings/juveniles, some thrive some don't.
some species require specific care and generic care can be detrimental

I am keen to replace them especially the Acanthoscurria geniculata as I had an adult specimen 10 years ago and it is definitely my favourite species.

I am also keen to acquire another arboreal but not sure about Psalmopoeus irminia. My specimen was fairly aggressive and secretive (the reason I stopped keeping old world 10 years ago). I have also read that they can jump 50cm as adults.


Philip


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

Have you tried using coco coir as a substrate? I wouldn't really recommend keeping tarantulas (especially spiderlings) on straight vermiculite. Also what kind of humidity do you keep your spiderlings at? I ask just in case you're maybe keeping them too dry, spiderlings of species that require less humidity as adults still need a good amount of humidity whilst growing to juvenile stage. 

_Psalmopoeus irminia_ have quite a defensive nature although I have found that as long as your careful working around them they are a very rewarding interesting species to keep (It may be worth adding that they're not Old World either, they just don't have urticating hair. Any species from the Americas are New World). Also maybe look into some of the _Avicularia_ species if your after a more docile arboreal, theyre an interesting genus to keep also as long as you get your humidity and cross ventilation correct.


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## empirecook (Sep 1, 2009)

mcluskyisms said:


> spiderlings of species that require less humidity as adults still need a good amount of humidity whilst growing to juvenile stage.


So In theory...

My spiderlings should all be dead?


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

empirecook said:


> So In theory...
> 
> My spiderlings should all be dead?


Nope, just you.

Nah, it depends a lot on temperature and the RH of your house. I never really bothered with keeping the watering up on most of my spiderlings and plenty of them are fine. I spray when I think about it but that's it.

These things do happen though, and I'd say general care works fine for irminia... mine I doubt I could kill with a shovel.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

empirecook said:


> So In theory...
> 
> My spiderlings should all be dead?


No Michael, your spiderlings get plenty of humidity when you're rehousing them in the bath... with water in it in case they escape.


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

Hedgewitch said:


> These things do happen though, and I'd say general care works fine for irminia... mine I doubt I could kill with a shovel.


I've never had luck with irminia, I have had 4 slings and all died at around 1.5" during or just after moults. 

I do wonder about your ventilation. If the peat moss grew fungus after a week I'd be suspecting too much moisture and not enough fresh air. I've got peat in a few tanks, it's been in there ages and has never grown mould. I do however have occasional problems with coco husk growing yellow blobs of fungus in more humid tanks.

can you show us any pics of your spiderling pots?


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

garlicpickle said:


> I've never had luck with irminia, I have had 4 slings and all died at around 1.5" during or just after moults.
> 
> I do wonder about your ventilation. If the peat moss grew fungus after a week I'd be suspecting too much moisture and not enough fresh air. I've got peat in a few tanks, it's been in there ages and has never grown mould. I do however have occasional problems with coco husk growing yellow blobs of fungus in more humid tanks.
> 
> can you show us any pics of your spiderling pots?


Agreed. Pics of your setups would be good.


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## Colosseum (Aug 8, 2008)

I have kept Irminia with no problems had one at 2 cm sold her on when she was sub adult, my enclosure when sling was peat moss, and Sphagnum moss flooring sprayed every other day this was housed in a deli pot with as many holes as I could get on the lid and around the pot.


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## empirecook (Sep 1, 2009)

mcluskyisms said:


> No Michael, your spiderlings get plenty of humidity when you're rehousing them in the bath... with water in it in case they escape.


Surely water in the bath would contribute to drinking water....If they were actually swimming on top. Humidity is in the atmosphere. Not in a bath.

Basically, I disagree that spiderlings should have more humidity than that compared to of adults. If something don't live in a humid enviroment as an adult, then surely it wont as a spiderling.


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## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

empirecook said:


> Surely water in the bath would contribute to drinking water....If they were actually swimming on top. Humidity is in the atmosphere. Not in a bath.
> 
> Basically, I disagree that spiderlings should have more humidity than that compared to of adults. If something don't live in a humid enviroment as an adult, then surely it wont as a spiderling.


You will find that the majority of species which are found in arid climates, will actually burrow while spiderlings, hence, giving them an increased humidity compared to that found in "the open" areas.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

empirecook said:


> Basically, I disagree that spiderlings should have more humidity than that compared to of adults. If something don't live in a humid enviroment as an adult, then surely it wont as a spiderling.


In theory maybe, although there's a _big_ difference in rearing spiderlings in captivity over them growing naturally in the wild. Maybe if you had a little more experience with growing on more than just the six spiderlings you have you may understand that correct humidity is one of the key factors for any species of spiderling to survive in captivity.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

empirecook said:


> Basically, I disagree that spiderlings should have more humidity than that compared to of adults. If something don't live in a humid enviroment as an adult, then surely it wont as a spiderling.


Its because the body of a spiderling isnt built to retain the moisture it obtains. The retention of moisture only develops as the tarantula gets older therefore its more important to provide a regular level of moisture. A humid environment will naturally provide a level of moisture.


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## bulkupman (Aug 16, 2011)

the-pipster said:


> Hi,
> 
> If any of you have the time to respond I will be very grateful. I have kept tarantulas for over several years buying them as 1cm spiderlings and growing them on. This year I have lost 7 and despite searching the net I can't establish a cause. I saw 3 of them in the characteristic death pose and tried to drop feed water but with no luck.
> 
> ...


 
might be worth getting someone to look at the corpse for diagnosis if someone with those skills is up for the task.

how are you monitoring the temp and hum, digital or analogue? the substrait and ventiliation plays a important role it affects the conditions.

i use cocohair, it can be dry when i use desert species and moist for rainforest ones, its flexible.


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## bulkupman (Aug 16, 2011)

infact im now interested in getting a few of these species as slings and seeing for myself.


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

empirecook said:


> Surely water in the bath would contribute to drinking water....If they were actually swimming on top. Humidity is in the atmosphere. Not in a bath.
> 
> Basically, I disagree that spiderlings should have more humidity than that compared to of adults. If something don't live in a humid enviroment as an adult, then surely it wont as a spiderling.





snowgoose said:


> You will find that the majority of species which are found in arid climates, will actually burrow while spiderlings, hence, giving them an increased humidity compared to that found in "the open" areas.


Many species you'll find adults and slings occupying different habitats.

Spiderling _E. murinus_ are arboreal, adults burrowers. The reverse is noted at least in captivity for pokies, psalmos, tapis, _Lampropelma sp._ and a number of others.


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## Big_Fella (Aug 31, 2011)

Just to add my two pence worth, I too keep my slings at a slightly higher humidity than they would normally encounter as an adult.

Seems to work for me.


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

garlicpickle said:


> I do wonder about your ventilation. If the peat moss grew fungus after a week I'd be suspecting too much moisture and not enough fresh air. I've got peat in a few tanks, it's been in there ages and has never grown mould. I do however have occasional problems with coco husk growing yellow blobs of fungus in more humid tanks.


I was thinking this too.

I feel sorry for anyone whose spiders keep dying.

Mine only die once.


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## TEENY (Jan 4, 2008)

I have had no problems with spiders for years. I moved house and lost a LOT including nearly all my Yamia . I didn't keep them any different from house to house so maybe there could be something in the air different here ?? Are there building sites etc around that would cause there to be diff dust etc ?? I dunno if that what happened to mine but its the only thing i can think of that is different here.


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## lil lizzie (Apr 27, 2009)

Do you use any chemicals in the room that you keep your spiders in ..polish etc or deaodrant, air freshener, wasp or fly spray , flea powder ?? not to patronise but it could be somethin as simple as this


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

All of mine should be dead then too? I never keep my slings at a higher humidity, in fact the opposite as they don't have a water dish and the sub' is always bone dry.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Ah yes, the "there's only one method" type post. 

If there was only one way to be successful then we'd all be doing it. 

OP: 

I can't suggest much other than to echo what Lisa (garlicpickle) brought up about stagnation in containers and to suggest switching from vermiculite to something less problematic. 

Another suggestion is to use larger enclosures as I find the tiny enclosures employed by some here cause a lot of problems for me in that they are prone to severe changes in condition (i.e temp or moisture). Even 1cm slings will be fine in cricket tubs - provide a 1/2" layer of coir or so and wet one side, so there is a gradient of moisture along the length of the tub. Seems to work well for me anyway. 

Of course, we haven't asked how many spiders you have bought, because if you lost 7/7 then that's odd, but 7/100 is not so unheard of and could just be 'luck'.


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## PeterUK (Jun 21, 2008)

I think your problem has 2 sources

1) Vermiculite is HYDROPHILIC (water loving) it holds water extremely well but if it dries out it will take moisture from its ambient surroundings. Spraying lightly will only wet the surface (probably the top few mm only )

2) Air conditioning drys the air as far as I know. When ever I am in an A/C room or car for more than a few hours my throat becomes extremely dry and I usually have a sore throat for a few days afterwards.

I think that these 2 things combined are drying the slings out more than they can handle.
The thing with vermiculite is that you cannot tell how wet it is by visual means only, I would suggest that you use coir and increase the ventilation so as to stop the mould that you mentioned. Mould only accures when there is damp and limited ventilation also coir chsnges colour depending on how dry or damp it is so it is extremely easy to check if water needs to be added at a glance.

Anyhow, thats my theory and im sticking to it


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

I love this sort of thread.

Noobie asks a question, then does a runner!

Oh..........and good call Peter on the vermiculite. I never thought of that.


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## the-pipster (Feb 1, 2010)

Hi guys, thanks for your answers. I did some photos as requested. Will review your responses and answer.

Lucky Eddie. I am not a noobie. I have kept tarantulas for 10 years but only started with slings in the last 12 months. I have not done a runner. I posted the question yesterday. I wish I could spend all day on the internet but sadly I work 12 hour shifts (unsocial hours). :gasp:


Some photos showing enclosures to give you an idea. Humidity is always 54-56%.



The hallway where I keep my tarantulas.


Close Up


General setup for terestrials


General setup showing temperature and humidity


General setup for arboreal juveniles


Inside arboreal setup.






The silver is tin foil that I make as a tunnel then bury it with an opening. The slings seem to like these.


Ambient temperature and humidity (new enclosures for my arboreals)

hosting images


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

the-pipster said:


> Lucky Eddie. I am not a noobie. I have kept tarantulas for 10 years but only started with slings in the last 12 months. I have not done a runner. I posted the question yesterday. I wish I could spend all day on the internet but sadly I work 12 hour shifts (unsocial hours). :gasp:


Then welcome back! :notworthy:

12 hour shifts! Pah! I struggle with 8 hours!


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## the-pipster (Feb 1, 2010)

mcluskyisms ... thanks for the advice. I have never used coco coir. I will order some off ebay and try it. I keep the humidity in my main tanks around 60%. I have no way of measuring the small pots. I did like the Psalmopoeus irminia and know it is new world. I was comparing its aggressiveness to some of the old world species I kept years ago *traumatic 'Indiana Jones' type flashbacks to when my Pterinochilus murinus escaped*  I tried several Avicularia versicolor slings last year and they died within a week.

Hedgewitch ... thanks. Made laugh, mine was the same.

Colosseum ... you got me thinking that I may need more ventilation in the containers


bulkupman ... thanks. I'm using both analogue and digital. mcluskyisms mentioned coco coir which I am going to try.

Big_Fella ... thanks. Going to try more humidity and more ventilation holes.

TEENY ... thanks. Oddly enough one of the draw backs of this ventilation system is dust. I only use it at night in the summer (for my spids) as have windows open in the day.

lil lizzie ... hey thanks for this, something I never thought of. Occasional febreeze on the carpet. Maybe should stop this and see if it has any effect.

Stelios ... thanks. I have been doing the same as you and my other spiderlings have grown on really well.

GRB ... thanks. I am going to try this. To be honest I am not a big fan of vermiculite, the reason I tried peat moss. I always presumed peat moss was peat until Virginia Cheeseman (who I buy from) sent several arboreal slings in it. I contacted her to find out what it was and bought some off Ebay. I didn't like the fact you had to immerse it in water and it expands. It was waterlogged despite wringing it out so left it to dry out for a few days before I used it. I forgot to mention the Pamphobeteus sp. II (1cm) I bought last month. I kept that in a tiny pot half full of vermiculite. The day after arrival it had burrowed into the vermiculite. I was careful not to disturb the container and put cricket heads in once week and didn't spray as there was mist in the container. After 2 weeks I decided to carefully empty the pot to see if it was still alive. It wasn't and had been dead for quite a few days. To answer your question I have 7 healthy juveniles and one sling, Nhandu carapoensis 1.5cm that I bought 3 weeks ago (in the photo). In the last 12 months I have lost 10 spiderlings.

PeterUK ... thanks. You seem to be reinforcing the trend in replies. Abandon the vermiculite and more ventilation. I would love to stop using vermiculite for all my tarantulas and going to try the coir. I read somewhere that tarantulas hate the sensation of vermiculite on their feet. It made me laugh initially but then started to think maybe they don't as its not a natural substrate. The air system I have is not air-conditioning (I recently lived in Dubai and know how that feels but it was better than the 50 degree heat). This system is quite clever. It takes the air out of the apartment and replaces it with air from outside. It has an exchanger built in that takes the heat from the outgoing air and transfers it to the incoming air. The only thing I can control is how much volume of air is extracted and replaced (one for normal use and one for drying washing and when it is damp). The air coming in passes through a filter. It is a new building and the system was installed to prevent damp in winter. I have no windows in the bathroom and have not seen any mould in there for 2 years. It definitely works as my heating bills are very low in the winter and I have electric heating.

Well thanks a lot guys (and ladies), some very useful information which I am going to try. I really have felt this last year that the 'sudden avic death syndrome' cloud has been hanging over my apartment


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## the-pipster (Feb 1, 2010)

Lucky Eddie ... I dream about doing 8 hour shifts


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

the-pipster said:


> Lucky Eddie ... I dream about doing 8 hour shifts


I used to, then I did it.

Now I have a life!


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## PeterUK (Jun 21, 2008)

the-pipster said:


> Lucky Eddie ... I dream about doing 8 hour shifts




8 hours shifts ! ! ! Oh how I wish. 

I do 8 hours before I have a tea break ! ! (sometimes if im feeling lazy i'll only work 7 1/2 instead)
I usually work for 8 hours then have 30 mins for tea and food and then do another 6 hours for a full days work


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

PeterUK said:


> 8 hours shifts ! ! ! Oh how I wish.
> 
> I do 8 hours before I have a tea break ! ! (sometimes if im feeling lazy i'll only work 7 1/2 instead)
> I usually work for 8 hours then have 30 mins for tea and food and then do another 6 hours for a full days work


Yeah....................but I'm 92!


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## PeterUK (Jun 21, 2008)

Lucky Eddie said:


> Yeah....................but I'm 92!



Yeah . . . . . . . . . . . Well i feel like 102 ! ! ! :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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