# Really Upset can anyone advise



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

OK so today I went to somewhere and they had reptiles. Lots of actually but although some were in ok conditions there was two that worried me greatly.

In 2 vivariums of around 3x1x1.5 were the following

VIV1 2 bearded dragons, 1 tortoise

VIV2 Adult male royal python, 1 tortoise

While I was there I witnesssed the tortoise in viv 1 attack the beardies legs and the beardies were very defensive and stressed.


IN viv 2 the royal laid at one end whilst the tortoise that shared its viv was in a showbox at the other end.

I asked why and pointed out dangers etc then asked to speak to the manager. I was told the manager was too busy however i was to write things down and shed take a look.

I was very calm and nice and said No I would return midweek and talk to her and whilst I did not want to appear confrontational in anyway and I would help adivse and explain why this was unbsuitable it was definately putting the animals in immediate danger.

I also explained that the royal was totally unable to thermoregulate as the tort was at one end of the shared viv and it at the other... and the tort in with it she said NEVER comes out the shoe box.. and its shell is SO thin and brittle.. obviously as its getting NO UV.


Can anyone tell me if for example the tortoise is attacking the beardies causing injury etc.. if this is actually legal to allow to species in a viv like this causing obvious and visual distress and injury.

Or if I only have the power of persuasion on my side.

This was at a Park not a pet shop.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Legally, it's perfectly legal for shops and zoos to cohabit whatever species they fancy regardless of any risks or possible dangers/stress/inappropriate climate


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Athravan said:


> Legally, it's perfectly legal for shops and zoos to cohabit whatever species they fancy regardless of any risks or possible dangers/stress/inappropriate climate


Oh no christy really..

See i just dont get that.

If a dog and cat were in together fighting making NOISE.. they just wouldnt get away with it.

Reptiles cant cry or speak.

I even offered to give them heat mats and vivs to help sort the problem out temporarily, I could have taken one down today for the royal even just to solve that overnight... I wil do my best to try and be helpful rather than angry so they hopefully listen.

I wil go back midweek and try to talk nicely to the manager and maybe take care sheets and things like that.

I need to look for good ones.


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## fantapants (Jan 4, 2008)

a tortoise doesnt *need* uvb as ong as its getting oral d3 either from nutrobal or drops. but i would never keep mine like that. and i know quite a few very trusted tort breeders that keep bearded dragons free running over there tort tables. it seems that it happens alot in private collections but it isnt actively advertised. i dont agree with it, but it still happens.

i once saw two fully grown leopard torts in a viv that was barely 5ft long with a juvenile beardy. the beardy was getting trampled by the torts and the shop owner laughed and said "dont worry , the dragon will be riding on there back soon". so that made it ok in her eyes. muppet.

report your concerns to the local council (animal licensing) and make sure they follow it up, they are duty bound to check out complaints.


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## kaimarion (Dec 31, 2007)

If you think this is bad a certain local shop near me had 4+ torts and and adult Yeman Cham crammed together in a 18x18 and thats not to mention the unhealthy looking BD hatchlings they had which were getting fed over-sized crix.


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

If they are allowing animals to get injured it "may" be braking regulations. However i doubt theres anything you can do. Ive seen a few pet shops do it and i was shooed away because i "didn't know anything". If its any constellation places like this normally face problems down the line for other things.


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## purpleskyes (Oct 15, 2007)

We seen a place like that on the way home from Wales. They had horned desert lizards in with tortosies. Iguanua's in with frogs. 3 royals in a tiny viv together none looked that well feed. Baby leos in with adult males and females, skinks with butterly amaga's and then there was also a tokay gecko in with a chinese water dragon. Also seen some golden geckos in with crocdile(sp) skinks.


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## Kami22 (Apr 21, 2008)

its heartbreaking that they can do this...


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## peaches (Apr 3, 2007)

sparkle said:


> if this is actually legal to allow to species in a viv like this causing obvious and visual distress and injury.


See I don't think it is legal if the enviroment etc is causing suffering. There is the Animal Welfare Act that you can now refer too.


For a suitable environment (place to live)
For a suitable diet
To exhibit normal behaviour patterns
To be housed with, or apart from, other animals (if applicable)
To be protected from pain, injury, suffering and disease
Defra, UK - Animal Health and Welfare - Animal Welfare - Animal Welfare Act


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

thanks peaches this is what i need to know

allbeit im going to attempt a softly approach and see if that works i also want to know how to if possible back myself up

seems the law regarding reptiles hasnt chnaged since hardly at all aince 1951 to make REAL differences

IM collating info for them and hoping it makes differences


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## MSL (Jul 30, 2007)

See how it goes mid week, or phone ahead and make an appointment . Non -confrontational is the way to go first, if that doesnt work and you get no response or no action taken you can take it from there.....if it is a park rather than a shop, profit shouldnt be an issue so at the very least they can move stuff around so same species can be together etc........offer your services to do it for them perhaps they just need the right advice and a hands on approach.......

Hope it goes well.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

Athravan said:


> Legally, it's perfectly legal for shops and zoos to cohabit whatever species they fancy regardless of any risks or possible dangers/stress/inappropriate climate


have a word with your local council I know in York it is a condition of the Pet Shop Licence that there will be no mixed species vivs.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Andy said:


> have a word with your local council I know in York it is a condition of the Pet Shop Licence that there will be no mixed species vivs.


 
Thanks Andy I will find out and update the thread when I have any news or movement.


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## zirliz (Nov 15, 2006)

Good luck with it sounds awful a shop I used to be near used to have Water dragons, leopard geckos, Bearded dragons, day geckos at times even seen Tokay in there,
along with tortoise none of the animals looked very healthy, 

I have tried saying something but I'd tried in anoter shop that had anoles, geckos and young bearded dragons all in one tank told the owner and he laughed at me and said I don't know anything.
That's awful and unacceptable in my opinion


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## Skyespirit86 (Feb 23, 2008)

Athravan said:


> Legally, it's perfectly legal for shops and zoos to cohabit whatever species they fancy regardless of any risks or possible dangers/stress/inappropriate climate


Is it now though? The Animal Welfare Act means animals have to have the 5 freedoms and RSPCA is able to take action if animals are not being provided for- instead of waiting until they are sick? If the snake cannot thermoregulate and the animals are in danger of being injured this compromises their 5 freedoms. I thought as part of their pet shop licensing they were supposed to give information about the keeping and husbandry of any new pet they sell, and for it to be good advice, so this is not a good example to be setting potential newby owners. 

Look up Animal Welfare Act 2006 and the Pet Shop Licensing Act (think that's what it is called).


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## pied pythons (Jan 18, 2008)

Uurgh! 

I get SO fed up of seeing shops/places like this.

And it also annoys me that these type of places have the cheek to tell you that you clearly don't know anything.

It happened to me with a local pet shop when I was really nicely trying to help out...Trying to explain that they did need a bulb guard to protect the bull snake from the 100watt heat lamp that was dangling 6 inches from the floor that it ''couldn't reach''...and that the heat mat directly below it needed to be on a thermostat...

Infact...all of their heat sources needed to be on thermostats...as not one was.

And that keeping a 4 foot viv with various ratsnakes species...(some corns, some everglades, one grey ratsnake) and different ages (some adults, some subadults) all unsexed wasn't a great idea due to firstly it being extremely overcrowded...and more importantly the risk of young/immature females getting gravid and eggbound..

Of course I was told I didn't know what I was talking about, that the way they kept their animals was absolutely perfect and that the RSPCA *rolls eyes* had inspected them and told them everything was great... I was then barged past (literally - knocking me aside) by the staff member in question and ignored.

It makes me sick...


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Skyespirit86 said:


> Is it now though? The Animal Welfare Act means animals have to have the 5 freedoms and RSPCA is able to take action if animals are not being provided for- instead of waiting until they are sick? If the snake cannot thermoregulate and the animals are in danger of being injured this compromises their 5 freedoms. I thought as part of their pet shop licensing they were supposed to give information about the keeping and husbandry of any new pet they sell, and for it to be good advice, so this is not a good example to be setting potential newby owners.
> 
> Look up Animal Welfare Act 2006 and the Pet Shop Licensing Act (think that's what it is called).


I own a pet shop and am quite familiar with the AWA, unfortunately the RSPCA taking a reptile is often worse than poor conditions in a shop, and certainly not an adequate solution. Hundreds of shops across the country house mixed species, and I am sure that thousands of complaints have been made to licensing committees. My own local licensing committee says that it is fine to mix species. Quite a number of zoos I have been in have also mixed species that I personally find an unacceptable risk and unsuitable climates. We see posts of people complaining about it every week.

The licensing comittee do not really know much about reptiles generally, and lets face it, neither do the RSPCA. Housing mixed species in pet shops is often without immediate problems as problems can tend to be quite long term and reptiles often hide their problems from us, indeed, when shops say they have kept for years without problems, many of them are telling the truth (doesn't make it right, but makes a hard case to press for licensing people to care). I'm sure many RSPCA officers and licensing officers will walk into a pet shop and see absolutely nothing wrong with housing a leopard gecko and a bearded dragon together. There are still shops that don't even provide the correct heating or lighting for lizards, let alone adequate space or perfect conditions.

Try to argue about a snakes rights in court, no one has done it yet, I would not lose my license nor my animals if I decided to start mixing species, and I know this for a fact, as there are plenty of other shops under the same council as me who have been mixing animals for years.


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## MSL (Jul 30, 2007)

DOes the fact that the OP states this is in a park....not a shop make any difference, I would think there are different types of legislation? or am I being thick.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

MSL said:


> DOes the fact that the OP states this is in a park....not a shop make any difference, I would think there are different types of legislation? or am I being thick.


If it's a public display then it will be under a Zoo License not a Pet Shop License but as the last 3 zoos I went to all mixed reptile species (at least one inappropriately but I'm not mentioning names) I don't think that the zoo license can be any more specific than the PSL - which mentions what must be provided for livestock, and not mixing species is not in the terms of my agreement, so it's entirely down to the AWA, and what the RSPCA believed they could argue for it in court.


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## fishboy (Aug 7, 2007)

purpleskyes said:


> We seen a place like that on the way home from Wales. They had horned desert lizards in with tortosies. Iguanua's in with frogs. 3 royals in a tiny viv together none looked that well feed. Baby leos in with adult males and females, skinks with butterly amaga's and then there was also a tokay gecko in with a chinese water dragon. Also seen some golden geckos in with crocdile(sp) skinks.


the royals were 500-900 grams and were in a 20"-ish square viv with not a single hide and no water:bash:


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

OK guys I have decided to find out a tad more about the legislation and what it covers.

That wont stop me from approaching them kindly and informatively though. The outcome is I want to help them see whats going on without it resorting to a legal arguement and SSPCA etc... however I also feel its important they know if there is any act that covers the welfare as such.


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## sazzle (Jun 3, 2008)

good luck getting them to sort it hunny  x


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Small update

A girl im friendly with knows the actual owenrs of this WHOLE park not just the animal part. I had no idea she knew them and she said they are very approchable and nice but probably havent a clue anyhting is wrong as the employess for the animal bit of the park deal with al the husbandry.

Sooooooo im going to try to approach it by talking to the owners first as at trhe end of the day they are the ones who will ultimately have the money to get new tanks to seperate the animals etc.

In the meantime I have printed off information in a factual pack for them and rather than go to the manager of the reptile section I will go to the owners 

And hopefully that will work better with regards to sorting out funding for new tanks etc.

Will update when I have more to add.. thanks for al the advice so far guys.


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## donstapley (Jul 28, 2008)

one quick point......for the person who said that tortoises do not "need" UVB light.....this is wrong! Nutrobal provides them with Calcicum not the D3 that they need in order to grow PROPERLY...which is obtained through UVB lighting. Without this they can suffer from various growth definiciencies as they cannot sythesise Vitamin D properly. relying on such oral supliments in dangerous and can result in serious abnormality in their growth. They should definately be getting UVB from a strip light if they are not seeing "natural" sunlight. This is stated very clearly on the TortoiseTrust website.


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