# Northumberland pit dog



## snakewhisperer (Nov 13, 2009)

Just looking through some old bull breed publications and came across a picture of a long stuffed dog that is supposedly a Northumberland 'pit dog'- has anyone ever heard of these?? May also have been known as a 'red smut'


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## kirksandallchinchillas (Sep 29, 2009)

I used to live in Northumberland and have never heard of it - is it a pit bull type or did it work down the pits? (mines to you southerners!)


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Well my husband and I have both lived up here all our lives and neither of us has heard of them.

Although I believe some men took their dogs down the mines to kill rats down there, but I didn't think it was a specific breed, just your average terrier.


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## snakewhisperer (Nov 13, 2009)

From the little information I have I think they existed long before living memory so its likely to be only of word of mouth if anyone has heard anything at all. Apparently men with working terriers from the south would travel up to have their dogs lined with these "N. pit dogs" to "fortify their blood"


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Well I can believe that, cos we're made of pretty strong stuff up here I can tell you! :lol2:


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

snakewhisperer said:


> Just looking through some old bull breed publications and came across a picture of a long stuffed dog that is supposedly a Northumberland 'pit dog'- has anyone ever heard of these?? May also have been known as a 'red smut'


It would have been a Bull and terrier for the Northumberland area.There was likely a fair amount of strains but these would have been about in the beingning of the Bull and terrier's evolution.But a lot was word of mouth so info dies out over the years.A famoues strain of now exstinted Bull & terrier was the Blue paul terrier that was created in Scotland in the Galloway area.The terrier used in the creation of the Blue paul bull terrer was the Kerry blue terrier.

Can you get a scan of the picture you have ?.Be interest to see it.

Here's a drawing of a Blue paul bull terrier.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

What a lovely tradition to chat about. I do wonder if we have any people involved in dog fighting on here, the amount it's been bigged up recently. It's a peace of history we should be mortally ashamed of as human beings, yet there's a certain sect of men that can't get enough of talking about it.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

KathyM said:


> What a lovely tradition to chat about. I do wonder if we have any people involved in dog fighting on here, the amount it's been bigged up recently. It's a peace of history we should be mortally ashamed of as human beings, yet there's a certain sect of men that can't get enough of talking about it.


 
but i see no mention anywhere on this thread of dog fighting other than what you have said 

why do people assosiate the word pit in dogs to mean pit bull............

pit in the older days was also used for mines..........people used dogs to work back then too they also used canaries as well :whistling2::lol2:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

KathyM who mentioned Fighting? from what I just read this thread is about an old breed that was used down the pits (mines) for killing rats, and people from down south brought up north to be lined with there terriers to bulk them up!


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## vonnie (Aug 20, 2007)

I live in a pit village. Northumberland is full of pit villages (well ex pit villages nowadays of course). I would take the word pit here as meaning mine too.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Of course it does Yvonne - I would have thought Kathy, being from this area (whether she was born here I don't know, but she certainly lived over here) would know very well that in the north coal mines were always called pits - maybe she's just trying to be her usual contraversial self?

Out of curiosity, I googled "red smut" this morning and it seems now to be a colour in bull breeds rather than a breed in itself, but of course that could have derived from an old breed being called that - who knows??

I also read somewhere that the original purpose of the Yorkshire Terrier was to kill rats in the Yorkshire pits - maybe as a breed it became more popular thatn the Northumberland pit dog and so remained, no doubt bearing no resemblance to the ones that worked in the pits.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

bosshogg said:


> KathyM who mentioned Fighting? from what I just read this thread is about an old breed that was used down the pits (mines) for killing rats, and people from down south brought up north to be lined with there terriers to bulk them up!


I misread "lining up" as fighting, and for that I apologise. Don't think I deserved Eileen's usual bitching, but some people can't help themselves (yes that's me copying her style, bet I get told off for it, while she gets away with it again). :lol2:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

feorag said:


> Of course it does Yvonne - I would have thought Kathy, being from this area (whether she was born here I don't know, but she certainly lived over here) would know very well that in the north coal mines were always called pits.


I have never lived in Northumberland, please get your facts straight, it's getting creepy!


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

kirksandallchinchillas said:


> I used to live in Northumberland and have never heard of it - is it a pit bull type or did it work down the pits? (mines to you southerners!)


Oh yeah.. those things you were never in during the 80's. yeah we remember those :lol2:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

KathyM said:


> I misread "lining up" as fighting, and for that I apologise. Don't think I deserved Eileen's usual bitching, but some people can't help themselves (yes that's me copying her style, bet I get told off for it, while she gets away with it again). :lol2:


No surprise there then! I think in the bitching stakes you'd win hands down.



KathyM said:


> I have never lived in Northumberland, please get your facts straight, it's getting creepy!


Oops, Sorry, Y told me you almost took a job at the Dog & Cat Shelter in Newcastle? So I obviously wrongly assumed that you lived in the area.

What's creepy about that?


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Newcastle is Tyne and Wear, not Northumberland. :lol2: Who is "Y"? I did work at the Cat and Dog Shelter, not "nearly". I volunteered for a while, dogwalking and cleaning. It was a long time ago. And yes I find it creepy that you bring my personal life into things, none of that has anything to do with what was being discussed and I already apologised for my mistake, but as ever you jump in because it's me. That's creepy.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

KathyM said:


> Newcastle is Tyne and Wear, not Northumberland. :lol2: Who is "Y"? I did work at the Cat and Dog Shelter, not "nearly". I volunteered for a while, dogwalking and cleaning. It was a long time ago. And yes I find it creepy that you bring my personal life into things, none of that has anything to do with what was being discussed and I already apologised for my mistake, but as ever you jump in because it's me. That's creepy.


You will no doubt think I am defending Eileen but I dont actually care tbh.
I find nothing creepy in Eileen mentioning your personal life when she was putting it into the context of this thread.You make it sound like she is stalking you in real life.
Why do you feel the need to be so defensive when you post in reply to somebody else, surely you could find a pleasant way of wording your replies


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

KathyM said:


> Newcastle is Tyne and Wear, not Northumberland. :lol2: Who is "Y"? I did work at the Cat and Dog Shelter, not "nearly". I volunteered for a while, dogwalking and cleaning. It was a long time ago. And yes I find it creepy that you bring my personal life into things, none of that has anything to do with what was being discussed and I already apologised for my mistake, but as ever you jump in because it's me. That's creepy.


Surely you know that Newcastle upon Tyne was always in Northumberland until they formed Tyne & Wear in the mid-70s? So that's just nit picking and semantics.:lol2:

And you know of course that Y is a typo - we all make them often enough, but thanks for pointing it out.

There's nothing creepy about someone telling me they went for a job in my area, thereby informing me _personally _that they lived in this area and me then commenting on it when someone suggests that you might not know that a pit is a coalmine.

Now I'm really interested in this thread to see if anyone comes in with any information about these dogs, so I'm not gonna clog it up with personal stuff. Carry on bitching at me if you want, but I'm not responding.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

So come on out of all the people on this blooming forum..................someone should have some info about these dogs surely 


(notice my wonderful subject change there :2thumb::lol2


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Thanks Emma xx I'm out of here xx


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

I tried to google but all it came up with was pit bull attacks  

someone must have some information in this 

im really interested to find out what the dogs were used for 

as suppose they could have been put to a number of uses such as rodent ridding and hmmm dunno what else brain freeze lol


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

If they were bred from a bull breed they could even have been used to pull carts like the pit ponies in areas that weren't suitable for ponies??


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

feorag said:


> If they were bred from a bull breed they could even have been used to pull carts like the pit ponies in areas that weren't suitable for ponies??


 
oOO yeah some of the pits may have been even too low for the ponies :2thumb:


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## ryanr1987 (Mar 7, 2009)

Never heard of it don't even think it was a breed otherwise there would be some info somewhere. Maybe the name was a mistaken for another breed?


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

snakewhisperer said:


> Just looking through some old bull breed publications and came across a picture of a long stuffed dog that is supposedly a Northumberland 'pit dog'- has anyone ever heard of these?? May also have been known as a 'red smut'


Best relivent info i could find. 

*Red Smut?* - A red or red brindle Scottish fighting dog smaller than a Blue Paul, now extinct in a pure form. Part of the American Pit Bull Terriers heritage. Some were fallow colored; Glasgow Smut Register Of Merit - R.O.M.; recognized on paper as having produced champion match dogs.


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## girlsnotgray (Dec 28, 2009)

Its a shame so many of the old breeds were bred out, the same happened with horses. :bash:


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

KathyM said:


> What a lovely tradition to chat about. I do wonder if we have any people involved in dog fighting on here, the amount it's been bigged up recently. It's a peace of history we should be mortally ashamed of as human beings, yet there's a certain sect of men that can't get enough of talking about it.


What's being bigged up i've seen bigging up of the breeds.I've not seen bigging up of dog fighting and rightly so.You don't have to be a dog fighter to know your stuff.A staffordshire bull terrier is what i wanted and i resarched about the breed.Before i got one and in meny good books you'll find breed history.I own a Staffie soft as S:censor:.If i pitted her agenst a mouse the mouse would win :lol2:.Yes it's a shamful history a lot of human history is shamful.But it happed if it didn't the bull dog type.And bull terrier types we have today wouldn't be as there evolution root would have been differant.


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## girlsnotgray (Dec 28, 2009)

gazz said:


> What's being bigged up i've seen bigging up of the brreds i've not seen bigging up of dog fighting.You don't have to be a dog fighter to know your stuff a staffordshire bull terrier is what i wanted and i resarched about the breed before i got one and in meny good books you'll find breed history.I own a Staffie soft as S:censor:.If i pitted her agenst a mouse the mouse would win :lol2:.Yes it's a shamful history a lot of human history is shamful.But it happed if it didn't the bull dog type.And bull terrier types we have today wouldn't be as there evolution root would have been differant.


esactly its like saying you cant talk about germans or germany because of the war!! Then again the womans banned for a reason :lol2:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

gazz said:


> Best relivent info i could find.
> 
> *Red Smut?* - A red or red brindle Scottish fighting dog smaller than a Blue Paul, now extinct in a pure form. Part of the American Pit Bull Terriers heritage. Some were fallow colored; Glasgow Smut Register Of Merit - R.O.M.; recognized on paper as having produced champion match dogs.


That could be very relevant, because a lot of Scottish men came down from Scotland to work the pits in England and may have brought those dogs with them. 

Who knows maybe they crossed them with Bedlington Terriers cos they've been around since the 1800's and they were bred as ratters and badger hunters, so hearts like lions?? Bedlington and all the area around there and Cramlington, where I live, were all pit villages originally.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

girlsnotgray said:


> esactly its like saying you cant talk about germans or germany because of the war!! Then again the womans banned for a reason :lol2:


Kathy apologised for her mistake....


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## girlsnotgray (Dec 28, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> Kathy apologised for her mistake....


 
She doesnt accept other people though! Not that it matters now that shes banned. :2thumb:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

girlsnotgray said:


> She doesnt accept other people though! Not that it matters now that shes banned. :2thumb:


it will only be a temp ban  just wish someone members would respect other members views, that goes for Kathy and other sides as well


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## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

Stab in the dark but could this be an early Bedlington Terrier?


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

rakpeterson said:


> Stab in the dark but could this be an early Bedlington Terrier?


eileen did question that too :2thumb:


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

rakpeterson said:


> Stab in the dark but could this be an early Bedlington Terrier?


Could have been as they was a all round breed.They covered a whole range of jobs.Ratting,Rabbiting,Hare coursing,Fox/Badger baiting,Dog fighting they was said to be relentless fight till the bitter end dogs.So i'm willing to bet they was highly prized.

A scan of the picture would be helpful as we could see the frame of the dog.

I don't think at that point time they would have a dog *just* to pull carts.I'm willing to bet they had them pulling carts but the aim would have been to tone and train the dog for fighting for exsta income.If they had dogs pulling cart.Sooner or later it just would have been to tempting for them to see the dog bulking up not for them to try this brick s:censor: house in the pit ring.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

gazz said:


> Could have been as they was a all round breed.They covered a whole range of jobs.Ratting,Rabbiting,Hare coursing,Fox/Badger baiting,Dog fighting they was said to be relentless fight till the bitter end dogs.So i'm willing to bet they was highly prized.
> 
> A scan of the picture would be helpful as we could see the frame of the dog.
> 
> I don't think at that point time they would have a dog *just* to pull carts.I'm willing to bet they had them pulling carts but the aim would have been to tone and train the dog for fighting for exsta income.If they had dogs pulling cart.Sooner or later it just would have been to tempting for them to see the dog bulking up not for them to try this brick s:censor: house in the pit ring.


 
wow so does dog fighting really go way far back 

sorry not trying to start anything im just generally interested in it in a history sense


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## ryanr1987 (Mar 7, 2009)

Dog fighting has a huge history! as sick as it may be it's interesting how far back it really goes


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

ryanr1987 said:


> Dog fighting has a huge history! as sick as it may be it's interesting how far back it really goes


 
yeah ryan thats exactly how i was meaning it i in no way agree with it but the history of how far back it goes and how it started interests me


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Emmaj said:


> wow so does dog fighting really go way far back
> 
> sorry not trying to start anything im just generally interested in it in a history sense


Dog fighting was at it's hight in the UK around the Middle of the 1800 hundreds.But such "sport" deffo goes as far back as the Roman Empire but the dog then would have been massive mastiff breeds.And likely only done if they had no bears,Lions'ect.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

gazz said:


> Dog fighting was at it's hight in the UK around the Middle of the 1800 hundreds.But such "sport" deffo goes as far back as the Roman Empire but the dog then would have been massive mastiff breeds.


 
wow really 

i know it sounds wierd but i cant imagine it happening............cockeral fighting yeah but not dog fighting 

its really rather to sad to know its not just something thats happened over the last few years it dates way way back


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Emmaj said:


> eileen did question that too :2thumb:


Not so much that the Northumberland pit dog _was_ a Bedlington, but that the bull breeds that maybe came down from Scotland with Scottish miners looking for work, might have crossed them with Bedlingtons.



gazz said:


> Could have been as they was a all round breed.They covered a whole range of jobs.Ratting,Rabbiting,Hare coursing,Fox/Badger baiting,Dog fighting they was said to be relentless fight till the bitter end dogs.So i'm willing to bet they was highly prized.
> 
> A scan of the picture would be helpful as we could see the frame of the dog.
> 
> I don't think at that point time they would have a dog *just* to pull carts.I'm willing to bet they had them pulling carts but the aim would have been to tone and train the dog for fighting for exsta income.If they had dogs pulling cart.Sooner or later it just would have been to tempting for them to see the dog bulking up not for them to try this brick s:censor: house in the pit ring.


I agree Bedlingtons have hearts like lions and will take anything on - well the ones that haven't been turned into namby pamby lapdogs! :lol2:

I didn't think they would be used solely for pulling carts, just that it might have been something their owners took them down the pits to do from an exercise and strengthening point of view, especially if they were used for fighting. Miners didn't have much money for any other kind of pleasure - although how anyone could take pleasure out of watching any two animals fight, be it cockerels, bears, dogs, horses (which is apparently very common now in some countries  badgers v dogs whatever.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

girlsnotgray said:


> esactly its like saying you cant talk about germans or germany because of the war!! Then again the womans banned for a reason :lol2:


??? First I heard of it lol. I'm not banned, but carry on.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

feorag said:


> I didn't think they would be used solely for pulling carts, just that it might have been something their owners took them down the pits to do from an exercise and strengthening point of view, especially if they were used for fighting.


Yeah. In Mexico chihuahuas were used to take whole Mexican families to church in a cart.They were dual purpose dogs as they got used as guinea pig herders too,In fact, the name Chihuahua means 'herder of guinea pig and church cart puller' in Mexican. It was quite a common sight to see carts parked outside church with 60+ chihuahuas in harness attached to them. I'll see if I can find a picture somewhere.:whistling2:
Honest. It's true.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Are those steroids playing with yer brain, woman?? :lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

feorag said:


> Are those steroids playing with yer brain, woman?? :lol2:


hehe somethings happening and it might be the 'roids. It isn't booze cos I don't drink.Mind it might be the crystallised ginger.......


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

KathyM said:


> ??? First I heard of it lol. I'm not banned, but carry on.


:lol2:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> :lol2:


but she was banned.............


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Emmaj said:


> but she was banned.............


 
I second that


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I know, I was laughing at Kathy's response :lol2:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> I know, I was laughing at Kathy's response :lol2:


 
:lol2: I thought you had gone blind:whistling2:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> I know, I was laughing at Kathy's response :lol2:


eeeeeeeeeeee im in a laughing mood can i join in ?

no offence ment anywhere i just wanna laugh :2thumb:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Thought you might be interested!

I was so intrigued by this I e-mailed the local Woodhorn Mining Museum where all the archives are kept and asked if they could throw any light on this dog. Their answer arrived this morning:

Dear Ms Welsh, 
Thank you for your enquiry. 
Your enquiry certainly caused subject for debate in our office! Unfortunately, it seems as though most of our members of staff had never heard of this practice either. However, I would recommend Newcastle City Library or the Literary and Philosophical Society in Newcastle to see if they have any published works that may shed some light onto this story.
I hope that this is helpful. 
Yours truly, 
*Claire Fowkes BA (Hons) PGDipARM* 
*Archivist*


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