# Worms in bio active substrate



## Luke (May 19, 2005)

As the title suggests, on Sunday I asked whether earthworms etc could be used in the substrate?, Jon answered yes as long as theyre not compost worms. I never got chance to ask him what the difference was and also is this true?, are there any that could be used, and also what would be the benefit of using them ie what role would they play?

cheers

Luke


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

To be honest I`d rather not have them personally.
Somehow they do find their way into the vivs but normally not in any great number.
But recently, I have a friend who bought a live substrate which unknown to him was infested with nemerteans of some sort.
The substrate gave off enough gas to kill his frogs.
He was new to keeping dart frogs and didn`t realise there was a problem till it was too late.
If I see them I remove them no matter what effort is involved.


Mike


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Compost worms would mean that the substrate contained un-rotted organics for one, which would be bad. As to other worms, I personally don't see the point. Woodlice and springtails are all the custodians you need, and for smaller frogs double as food.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Luke said:


> As the title suggests, on Sunday I asked whether earthworms etc could be used in the substrate?, Jon answered yes as long as theyre not compost worms. I never got chance to ask him what the difference was and also is this true?, are there any that could be used, and also what would be the benefit of using them ie what role would they play?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Luke





frogman955 said:


> To be honest I`d rather not have them personally.
> Somehow they do find their way into the vivs but normally not in any great number.
> But recently, I have a friend who bought a live substrate which unknown to him was infested with nemerteans of some sort.
> The substrate gave off enough gas to kill his frogs.
> ...


I would say the complete opposite. Earth and compost worms are not related to nemertens- they are members of the Phylum Annelida, the 'segmented worms'. 'Both' (there are quite a few individual species) feed on decayed or decaying matter; in the UK, the ones we usually see in the soil can be broadly called 'earthworms' and tend to gather their food after it has broken down in the soil, 'compost worms' on the other hand, take it as it is still decaying, in compost heaps, horse manure etc. Both recycle material and are therfore very usefull in vivs; the main difference is that compost worms usually do better at higher temperatures, while earthworms make better food for larger 'phibs without any need for cleaning or purging.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Whatever they might be called Ron these things were all through his substrate.
He bought it off someone on here and it was infested.
To me an infestation is 10 or 12, maybe more, but he had hundreds.
I saw the photo`s.
So the way I see it, unless it`s springtails or tropical woodlice it can get to hell out of my vivs.
The frogs come first as far as I`m concerned.


Mike


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> Whatever they might be called Ron these things were all through his substrate.
> He bought it off someone on here and it was infested.
> To me an infestation is 10 or 12, maybe more, but he had hundreds.
> I saw the photo`s.
> ...


They are very different- different *Phyla*- entire animal groups. As different as frogs and cockroaches.

Annelid worms are almost entirely beneficial.


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## Galactic Mushroom (Mar 8, 2013)

I have dendrobeana in my soil are those ok?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Galactic Mushroom said:


> I have dendrobeana in my soil are those ok?


Yes. These are part of the 'compost worm' group that do well at higher temps. Lumbricus is the large earthworm you would find in the garden after digging; they make better food, but tend to die off in viv conditions.


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## Luke (May 19, 2005)

So these dendrobeana are fine then? what sort of temps are wqe looking at?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Luke said:


> So these dendrobeana are fine then? what sort of temps are wqe looking at?


Just normal warmish viv temps. *Earth*worms tend to need it cooler; under 18C or so, but Dendrobeana seem to do fine in all my tanks, where the soil is moist enough. You don't need loads, though, rather than buying in some, I'd suggest scrounging a handfull from a friend or relative with a compost bin or horse manure heap.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

One of their advantages, of course is that they naturally remove dung- I even have them in my corn snake viv, where they deal with all but the largest clumps.


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## Luke (May 19, 2005)

brilliant, so they would happily deal with my whites poo?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Luke said:


> brilliant, so they would happily deal with my whites poo?


Oh, yes! Only question is, what substrate are you using? They prefer neutral or slightly alkaline to acid, so if you are using pure ecoearth or similar, think about mixing in some calci-dust or similar.


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## Luke (May 19, 2005)

the coco husk stuff like eco earth only from IKEA lol, so calci dust, anything else that could alter its balance to suit without hurting the whites?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Luke said:


> the coco husk stuff like eco earth only from IKEA lol, so calci dust, anything else that could alter its balance to suit without hurting the whites?


Crumbled chalk or limestone dust would work fine; again, you don't need much. If all else fails, you could boil or bake eggshell and crumble it up.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Luke said:


> the coco husk stuff like eco earth only from IKEA lol, so calci dust, anything else that could alter its balance to suit without hurting the whites?


Luke, before you go off fixing what isn't broken, I have White's, on eco earth, and the springtails and dwarf woodlice deal with their poop without any problems. Some people just seem to like to overcomplicate things when they don't need to. My White's would eat yours for dinner, so you can imagine the size of their poops. :lol2:

Ade


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## Luke (May 19, 2005)

Yeah i understand what your saying Ade, I was just looking at other avenues as its my wifes viv, and although she is ok with crickets, I dont think shes keen on woodlice or springtails if theres other options available, and shes not bothered about worms as she used to come carp fishing with me lol.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Ade is right Luke, things can start to get over complicated.
Once they`re in the viv the springtails and woodlice will get on with what they do best.
Also they`ll be too small for your frogs to waste their time with so their numbers should remain steady or hopefully increase.
Don`t waste your time with worms where you have the chance of causing problems.
And your wife can rest assured that the springs and woodlice won`t leave the viv so she`ll never know they're there.


Mike


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> Ade is right Luke, things can start to get over complicated.
> Once they`re in the viv the springtails and woodlice will get on with what they do best.
> Also they`ll be too small for your frogs to waste their time with so their numbers should remain steady or hopefully increase.
> *Don`t waste your time with worms where you have the chance of causing problems.*
> ...


Given that the worms we are talking about are not the same 'worms' you were talking about, I fail to see any problems.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Who said I was talking about the same worms ?

Mike


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> Who said I was talking about the same worms ?
> 
> Mike


Point, so far as it goes. The question remains, however, what problems do Annelid worms cause or potentially cause?


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

Surely the more inverts you put in your viv, the better it will work? I've recently added worms to mine and have small millipedes in my Tiger salamander tank. I also hope to put some European woodlice in there too.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Ron Magpie said:


> Point, so far as it goes. The question remains, however, what problems do Annelid worms cause or potentially cause?


I'm with Ron on this one, i've used compost worms in my vivs for the past 10 years and never had a problem. I've also got roaches and various species of millipede. Woodlice and spring tails are great but there is no reason we can't use other things

They are brilliant little guys.

Jay


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

All I will add is something I have learned over the years.

The more we try to cram into our microscopic ecosystems, the worst things are when one tiny little thing goes wrong, as it gets harder and harder to balance the system to suit every single different life form in there.

Not much point me saying more, as I can see that certain parties will just 'shout me down' as they have firm and fixed ideas.

We make our choices, we are then responsible ourselves for the consequences of these choices.

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Spikebrit said:


> I'm with Ron on this one, i've used compost worms in my vivs for the past 10 years and never had a problem. I've also got roaches and various species of millipede. Woodlice and spring tails are great but there is no reason we can't use other things
> 
> They are brilliant little guys.
> 
> Jay


When you consider that even English woodland has an amazing diversity in its' soil (let alone that found in warmer climates!), a mix of more than one or two species makes a certain amount of sense. In fact, any mix we create artificially is bound to be a bit lacking, in comparison. That said, one or two species (worms alone, springtails alone, woodlice alone or a combination of any two) in a relatively small area can certainly work, but it also has the same risk that monoculture has in agriculture; any factor that affects one species- disease, temperature, humidity- can affect *all *of that species, whereas in a more mixed 'ecology' even if one species declines or dies off, others can pick up the slack. Which is why I prefer a mix.


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