# A Big Tank Causes A Spider Stress?



## The Lone Gunman (Oct 14, 2009)

I've often heard it claimed that big tanks can cause tarantulas stress. Personally, I just don't buy the theory. It makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Has anyone ever seen any evidence to suggest that spiders get stressed in tanks which are allegedly too big them?

I can fully understand the notion of a tarantula getting stressed in an enclosure which is too small for it, but one which is too big? I think that's nonsense.

Any thoughts?


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## iiisecondcreep (Oct 29, 2007)

I agree. As long as the spider has plenty of available hides/enough substrate to burrow if it wants then why would it get stressed? I am pretty sure spiders in the wild aren't stressed out because their habitat is too big! If they want to be someplace smaller, they'll hide/make a burrow/whatever.

I do put slings in smaller tubs and then get them bigger ones as they grow, but this is for practical reasons ie more economical/its easier to keep an eye on it, make sure its eating etc if its in a smaller tub. 

Also, if you put a sling in a MASSIVE house you might never see it again, and you'd never know if it had escaped!

Tbh, most T's wouldn't really take advantage of a very large enclosure so it would probably be a bit pointless, and just mean more places for livefood to hide!


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## buddah (Dec 23, 2009)

i also agree you can never have to big, is the wild to big.


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## davieboi (Jul 17, 2008)

as long as it can make its own retreat via hide,burrow or web any size will do unless obviously too small


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## The Lone Gunman (Oct 14, 2009)

My personal view is that there are many practical reasons for keeping tarantulas in relatively small enclosures, and most species will be perfectly happy/comfortable in such set-ups. However, that certainly doesn't mean to say they would be unhappy/uncomfortable in bigger enclosures. I'm positive they wouldn't. I believe they only become unhappy/uncomfortable in tanks which are too small for them.

Every time I hear or read the claim that spiders get stressed in big tanks, I am baffled by it. To me, it makes no sense whatsoever.


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

buddah said:


> i also agree you can never have to big, is the wild to big.


In the wild they live in a burrow, they don't roam around finding food etc


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## deansie26 (Apr 28, 2009)

*enclosure*

I dont think you can have too big either and dont agree with the stress theory-but as becky has said above- spiders dont have large territories in the wild so they may not make use of a massive tank to warrant its use.


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

Don't know about stress so much but i think its pretty pointless!


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Studies on tarantula have shown that their whole life will be within a square metre and only the male will become nomadic once mature. Most tarantula are active at night, moving from the depths of their burrow to the entrance and perhaps a little beyond. Its therefore quite clear that they prefer small spaces, unlike nomadic true spiders. Even arboreal tarantula will follow the same principal, whether its a tube webbing or crevices in building or holes in trees. 
If we ask ourselves why this might be we'd probably get the answer of security against getting eaten by others. To put a tarantula in an enclosure that doesnt try to immitate this set-up will certainly not reflect what's found in the wild. Whether or not that causes stress would be impossible to measure but when forums are full of deaths for no reason (or attributed to DS) it makes sense to try to create an environment which reflects their natural environment as much as possible, and within reason.
You have to question the sense in housing a burrowing tarantula in 6" of substrate in a 24" square enclosure when in reality the burrow might measure over 6' within a 8" radius.
Our problem is that we try to humanise the set-up and we fail to see what's in front of our noses. Check out your garden and you'll find plenty of spiders in small crevises, funnel webs etc. Interestingly enough even the spiders that use webbing to catch flies only use one side of the web! They have the freedom to use the whole garden, so why don't they?


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## liz200898 (Oct 13, 2008)

Poxicator said:


> Studies on tarantula have shown that their whole life will be within a square metre and only the male will become nomadic once mature. Most tarantula are active at night, moving from the depths of their burrow to the entrance and perhaps a little beyond. Its therefore quite clear that they prefer small spaces, unlike nomadic true spiders. Even arboreal tarantula will follow the same principal, whether its a tube webbing or crevices in building or holes in trees.
> If we ask ourselves why this might be we'd probably get the answer of security against getting eaten by others. To put a tarantula in an enclosure that doesnt try to immitate this set-up will certainly not reflect what's found in the wild. Whether or not that causes stress would be impossible to measure but when forums are full of deaths for no reason (or attributed to DS) it makes sense to try to create an environment which reflects their natural environment as much as possible, and within reason.
> You have to question the sense in housing a burrowing tarantula in 6" of substrate in a 24" square enclosure when in reality the burrow might measure over 6' within a 8" radius.
> Our problem is that we try to humanise the set-up and we fail to see what's in front of our noses. Check out your garden and you'll find plenty of spiders in small crevises, funnel webs etc. Interestingly enough even the spiders that use webbing to catch flies only use one side of the web! They have the freedom to use the whole garden, so why don't they?


Rather enjoyed reading that, it was interesting! : victory:


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Putting a spider in a smaller container simply limits the number of potential micro-niches available to it. A larger container simply maximises these site potentials. Spiders change their web site based upon numerous cues - age preference, abiotic conditions, prey density and other such factors. 

Tarantulas by and large do inhabit small crevices, although I prefer to allow the spider to choose a small crevice from within a mosaic of potential spaces rather than forcing it to pick the best from only one or two spaces.


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## The Lone Gunman (Oct 14, 2009)

Poxicator said:


> Studies on tarantula have shown that their whole life will be within a square metre and only the male will become nomadic once mature.


Surely you are not claiming that *all* tarantulas and tarantula species spend their entire life within a square metre?


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

no, I'm not claiming that, Stanley Schultz is, he knows a little bit more than I do


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## jack_rep (Sep 11, 2008)

The Lone Gunman said:


> Surely you are not claiming that *all* tarantulas and tarantula species spend their entire life within a square metre?


nup, he is claiming that studies from arachnologists in the field have shown that. (been reading schultz i think lol) 

but at least the statement is based on actual evidence - a rare treat on here!


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## love_reptiles (Mar 1, 2009)

The Lone Gunman said:


> Surely you are not claiming that *all* tarantulas and tarantula species spend their entire life within a square metre?





Poxicator said:


> no, I'm not claiming that, Stanley Schultz is, he knows a little bit more than I do


 
think you just got pwned TLG. :lol2:


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## iiisecondcreep (Oct 29, 2007)

To give a T 1m2 of floor space the enclosure would have to be about 6 foot long by 2 foot wide (6x2 viv has 1.1m2 floor space)... :gasp:


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

I agree 100% with Pete!


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

Strayed off the point we all know that T's need little space. 
It's not do they need a large enclosure, it's does a large enclosure stress them out?
And compared to what level of stress?


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## sage999 (Sep 21, 2008)

Personally I believe that most T's dislike large enclosures. I have had a few T's that have hated being moved into larger tanks. They have failed to eat and sat dorment in a corner of the tank. When moved back into thier old enclosures they have instantly turned back into their old selves. The largest tank I have is an adapted 3 foot fish tank which I keep my T blondi in. She spends 95% of her time in her burrow and the rest of the time never wanders more than six inches from it.


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## voyagerxp (Aug 7, 2009)

I put my salmon pink in a 4 foot tank when she was 10 years old and she sat huddled up in the corner of the tank and would not move or eat. Soon as i put her back in her old tank she came alive.


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## jack_rep (Sep 11, 2008)

Poxicator said:


> no, I'm not claiming that, Stanley Schultz is, he knows a little bit more than I do


beat me too it!


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## The Lone Gunman (Oct 14, 2009)

Poxicator said:


> no, I'm not claiming that, Stanley Schultz is, he knows a little bit more than I do


So, one author makes what appears to be an extremely wild claim, and it's automatically gospel?

Any idea how many species Schultz has studied in their natutral environments, and over what sort of periods? 

Regardless, it was not really the point in question, which was: do tarantulas get stressed in what some of us might regard as 'big' enclosures?

You have maintained that tarantulas spend their entire lives within a square metre. If that is so (and I find it very hard to believe that it is), then in order to replicate their natural environments, we should be providing them with tanks of at least that size, should we not?

I can see I'm going to have to get some bigger shelves.....

:gasp:


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

^You know who Stanley Shultz is right?

Anyway, aside from all the carefully researched information here's my wild speculation: many Ts are cryptic species, big enclosures may not be a problem, wide open spaces though will stress them. A big enclose with plenty of hides and cover would probably be fine, a big empty enclose quite possibly leaves the T feeling exposed.


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

Hedgewitch said:


> ^You know who Stanley Shultz is right?
> 
> Anyway, aside from all the carefully researched information here's my wild speculation: many Ts are cryptic species, big enclosures may not be a problem, wide open spaces though will stress them. A big enclose with plenty of hides and cover would probably be fine, a big empty enclose quite possibly leaves the T feeling exposed.


Yes In think that you have hit the nail on the head there.:no1:


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## jack_rep (Sep 11, 2008)

The Lone Gunman said:


> So, one author makes what appears to be an extremely wild claim, and it's automatically gospel?
> 
> Any idea how many species Schultz has studied in their natutral environments, and over what sort of periods?


Just seems a bit bizarre that when someone actually presents information that is based on field research that's the view you question?

Not enough research has been done on a lot of areas with regards to T's, but one observation that has been documented is that apart from wandering males, unless disturbed out of their original burrow, or driven to hunt by a lack of food source, they generally don't leave a few square feet of their burrow and simply sit and wait for food to wander in to ambush.

this even gives the result that tarantulas appear to exist in colonies. The babies leave the egg sack, wander only enough to find a suitable burrow site and then set up shop there. The result an entire population is contained within a very small clearing around where they originally birthed.
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If you are going to argue against a point that is backed up with empirical evidence gather by arachnologists, you are going to need something pretty convincing for people to suggest otherwise.

yeah its dangerous to take facts as gospel. But if i have to chose between scientific research or assumptions derived from keeping a few ts for 6 months, i know which im going to go with.


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## The Lone Gunman (Oct 14, 2009)

Hedgewitch said:


> ^You know who Stanley Shultz is right?


Yes, I know who Stanley Shultz is. I bought the first edition of his book around eight years ago, and I've referred to it numerous times since. Interestingly, I understand that subsequent editions (including the most recent) contain information and advice that contradicts the information and advice provided in the edition I have, but then that's hardly surprising given the date at which the original was published.

One of the things that has always stuck in my mind with regard to Schultz's book is his assertion that moults failing due to low humidity and dehydration is a myth. That rather goes against the grain of what the majority of tarantula keepers believe, but I think it's an interesting observation all the same.


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## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

I know that this is not a Tarantula, but I think it bears some relevance..

On here a while ago, someone mentioned that you can purchase exotic orb weaver type spiders and as long as the temperature is okay, you can keep them in your house in a corner of a room (without a vivarium) and as long as they are they are well fed they will stay there until maturity! 

very strange! I'd love to know if this is true!


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

I think it should be made clear that the claim of contradicting views in Schults' book has only been expressed by one person in this forum, Phobia. I'm not saying the contradiction doesn't exist but Phobia has suffered many inaccuracies in his threads, perhaps that's his perception when others might has called it a development of ideas. I've certainly not seen in any other forum, apart from those that refer to the points made by Phobia, similar accusations. It's also worth noting that since Schultz first book tarantula husbandry has learned many things through wider experience and the amount of species available has exploded. The extra 200 pages can't solely be addressing inaccuracies.

The biology of a tarantula gives us plenty of clues, they have developed little since the days of the dinosaur. Physically they don't make good hunters, they can't run without effectively holding their breath! What they have developed is a slow metabolism stealth and the art of ambush. Opportunist feeders!
The idea of stress comes from large open areas oven out to animals that are used to confined spaces. That must surely make the T feel uncomfortable and prone to prey. However it can also be argued that tarantula in captivity can show different characteristics that those in the wild and apapt to the conditions we provide, Cyriopagopus being excellent examples. 

The key question is do we need to provide large enclosures? Will the T use this larger space? And does this larger area have disadvantages eg providing a habitat for feeder insects.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Forgot to mention, Schultz isn't the only person to acknowledge the footprint of tarantula, and you can find reference to this in Andrew Smiths video on Brachypelma.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

David L said:


> I know that this is not a Tarantula, but I think it bears some relevance..
> 
> On here a while ago, someone mentioned that you can purchase exotic orb weaver type spiders and as long as the temperature is okay, you can keep them in your house in a corner of a room (without a vivarium) and as long as they are they are well fed they will stay there until maturity!
> 
> very strange! I'd love to know if this is true!



This is true, i have kept one like this.

I kept it in an exo untill it was big enough to be kept an eye on in the corner of the room and then left it to its own devises. It set up a huge web and id just throw food up to it. It stayed on its web(it didnt wonder off) until it died of old age.

Orb weavers are beautiful big spiders and they make massive webs, keeping them in any other way is really difficult as they need a good airflow to throw out lines for their webs.

Edit : mine was just labelled as Nephilia sp.


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## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

Wicked!

I Want One :2thumb:


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

David L said:


> Wicked!
> 
> I Want One :2thumb:


Slings arent too hard to track down, i'll have a look for you as im after another one myself.

It is important to give these alot of room and airflow at all stages tho, just so they can make their webs.

I'll let you know when i find some :2thumb:


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Here's a reference to a field study which actually states the burrowing nature of a tarantula based on field studies (Brachypelma klaasi).

Yanaz M and Floater G. (2000) Spatial distribution and habitat preference
of the endangered tarantula, Brachypelma klaasi (Araneae: Theraphosidae) in Mexico. _Biodiversity and Conservation_ 9: 795–810.

And a similar on for Avic avic:

Stradling D J. (1994). Distribution and Behavioral Ecology of an Arboreal `Tarantula' Spider in Trinidad. _Biotropica _26, 84-97. 

I thought I'd chuck this in since no-one has thus far actually reference anything other than Shultz. 

The general gist is that they dont move much...although this is not proof in itself that they are somehow stressed by large enclosures. I don't believe they are as I've always used "larger than Shultz" containers without hassle. In fact, many keepers often report hassle getting MM's to spin sperm webs due to over-frugal tubs.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

GRB said:


> Here's a reference to a field study which actually states the burrowing nature of a tarantula based on field studies (Brachypelma klaasi).
> 
> Yanaz M and Floater G. (2000) Spatial distribution and habitat preference
> of the endangered tarantula, Brachypelma klaasi (Araneae: Theraphosidae) in Mexico. _Biodiversity and Conservation_ 9: 795–810.
> ...


May i ask what size enclosures you use?

Id be interested in seeing what differences in behaviour our spiders show when in a larger space compared to the usual ones we keep them in.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Muze said:


> May i ask what size enclosures you use?
> 
> Id be interested in seeing what differences in behaviour our spiders show when in a larger space compared to the usual ones we keep them in.


I am not sure if my spaces count as particularly huge, but I used to keep all my adults (2 at the time) in 2ft x 1ft planted terraria. I now keep them in large exo terra flats, whilst not huge I do feel these have more floor space than the standard 12" cube. 

Obviously, I now have some utter pet holes and these do conform very much to the notion that these don't move very much (although they move within the burrow frequently and excavate at times). The ones I have noticed most active are my Brachy's and my X.immanis (and of course spiderlings).


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

GRB said:


> I am not sure if my spaces count as particularly huge, but I used to keep all my adults (2 at the time) in 2ft x 1ft planted terraria. I now keep them in large exo terra flats, whilst not huge I do feel these have more floor space than the standard 12" cube.
> 
> Obviously, I now have some utter pet holes and these do conform very much to the notion that these don't move very much (although they move within the burrow frequently and excavate at times). The ones I have noticed most active are my Brachy's and my X.immanis (and of course spiderlings).


Thanks for that.

We do keep some of our adults in the largest exoterra's planted with live plants (i think these are 2ft square-ish). Im not sure if its the spiders themselves or the size of the enclosure, but the ones we have had in these are quite active.

They range from Selenocosmias to Pokies.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Muze said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> We do keep some of our adults in the largest exoterra's planted with live plants (i think these are 2ft square-ish). Im not sure if its the spiders themselves or the size of the enclosure, but the ones we have had in these are quite active.
> 
> They range from Selenocosmias to Pokies.


It's always been my belief from my observations of other spiders and orb weavers in particular, that tarantulas are likely to be more active than is commonly portrayed. Some of the field reports of tarantulas (like Reichling) hint at their movements, but most are marred by lack of long term study. 

Orb weavers are quite sedate too - at the scale of the web. At larger scales they move around quite a bit over time, and if you could make similar resolution measurements for the longer lifetime of a tarantula I'm sure they would move around more than you'd realise from a few months of field observations.

I don't really mind people keeping them in average sized tanks, but to me I'd rather try a larger tank to see novel behaviours than just assume their would be no difference with a small tank. It's even possible that some spiders might move between sites every couple of years - how can you observe this in a small tank with only one suitable hide?


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

GRB said:


> It's always been my belief from my observations of other spiders and orb weavers in particular, that tarantulas are likely to be more active than is commonly portrayed. Some of the field reports of tarantulas (like Reichling) hint at their movements, but most are marred by lack of long term study.
> 
> Orb weavers are quite sedate too - at the scale of the web. At larger scales they move around quite a bit over time, and if you could make similar resolution measurements for the longer lifetime of a tarantula I'm sure they would move around more than you'd realise from a few months of field observations.
> 
> I don't really mind people keeping them in average sized tanks, but to me I'd rather try a larger tank to see novel behaviours than just assume their would be no difference with a small tank. It's even possible that some spiders might move between sites every couple of years - how can you observe this in a small tank with only one suitable hide?


Ours do move sites quite regularly (the ones in the biggest tanks) I think it was every 4 months or so we would notice they had set up home somewhere new, as opposed to the ones kept in what would be considered standard housing.

The Nephilia i had was also very active too, while it wouldnt move from its web it was always busy doing something, during certain parts of the day and evening. It seemed to have definite periods of activity.


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