# Adder thefts in Gloucs



## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

*Adder thefts from Forest of Dean reported to police*








A study found the number of adders in the UK had declined since 2007 
Police are investigating a report that four men were seen removing adders from a Gloucestershire tourist site.
The group was spotted in the Forest of Dean by a member of the public who reported the details of the grey vehicle they were driving.
A police spokesman said they were unaware of similar incidents before and would be actively investigating it.
In March a nationwide survey of UK amphibian and reptiles revealed that adder numbers were in serious decline. 
The adder - Britain's only venomous snake - is protected under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 making it an offence to kill, harm or injure them. 
It is also an offence to sell them or trade them in any way.
"If people are actually removing adders it can only be for personal gain," said Rob Ward, 42, who has monitored snakes in the Forest of Dean for almost 35 years.
He said it was "disturbing" that snakes in the wild might be caught to sell on or add to a personal collection.
Stuart Burgess from the Forestry Commission encouraged visitors to the Forest of Dean to report any suspicious activity directly to the police.


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## ConstrictorsCymru (May 13, 2011)

absolute selfish tools
I always wanted a pet adder when i was 7 lol
I love to view these in their natural environment
shame that the minority think its okay to mess with these with no intention on conservation


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Matt Harris said:


> *Adder thefts from Forest of Dean reported to police*
> 
> image A study found the number of adders in the UK had declined since 2007
> Police are investigating a report that four men were seen removing adders from a Gloucestershire tourist site.
> ...


Whilst this sounds bad I wonder if this was more likely to be some fellow herpers looking and photographing them?

" a member of the public may have no idea what joe bloggs was doing"

Anyway WTF are the police going to do?

Unless someone tries to sell them they have not actually broken any law!

PS Anyone want to buy some cheap adders? 



Joking!!!!!


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## PESKY (May 25, 2010)

slippery42 said:


> Whilst this sounds bad I wonder if this was more likely to be some fellow herpers looking and photographing them?
> 
> " a member of the public may have no idea what joe bloggs was doing"
> 
> ...


 
exactly! im not agreeing but its not illegal so im not sure why theres even been an article written about it. if they where killing them fair enough but they were not. for all anybody knows they could have been relocating somewhere else to a better habitat, doing surveys, photographing, actualy taking them but for a conservation project? who knows


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

PESKY said:


> exactly! im not agreeing but its not illegal so im not sure why theres even been an article written about it. if they where killing them fair enough but they were not. for all anybody knows they could have been relocating somewhere else to a better habitat, doing surveys, photographing, actualy taking them but for a conservation project? who knows


I have been working on various Adder projects for 30+ years including undertaking investigating a number of high profile Adder killings.

Has Natural England or the police ever been involved?

No!

I certainly do not condone anyone removing adders but this very odd.

I think it'll be someone photographing them


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

As I suspected this was some busybody reporting inaccurately!

I know who there four men are and they are highly respected photographers!

Dont bother asking me who but take it at face value no adders were harmed!

Bloody press!


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

slippery42 said:


> As I suspected this was some busybody reporting inaccurately!
> 
> I know who there four men are and they are highly respected photographers!
> 
> ...


I wouldn't describe someone who reports a suspected wildlife crime using such a derogatory term as 'busybody'. We'd have more success detecting and prosecuting wildlife crime if more people came forward like this. Fair enough, it seems as though in this instance the adders were being removed legitimately, but those reporting it weren't to know that.

I presume those who have taken the adders have contacted the police so that they don't waste any more time investigating a crime that hasn't been committed.

I hope also that the landowners or commoners responsible for the land were informed.

I don't agree with the chap jumping to the conclusion that because snakes were being removed then it must have been to sell them - there are many other possible reasons that he could have suggested.

There is nothing wrong with the report and I see no reason to criticise the press. All they've done is quote what rob ward said, and given some accurate factual information about adders.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Matt Harris said:


> I wouldn't describe someone who reports a suspected wildlife crime using such a derogatory term as 'busybody'. We'd have more success detecting and prosecuting wildlife crime if more people came forward like this. Fair enough, it seems as though in this instance the adders were being removed legitimately, but those reporting it weren't to know that.
> 
> I presume those who have taken the adders have contacted the police so that they don't waste any more time investigating a crime that hasn't been committed.
> 
> ...


*The guys never removed or even bagged up any adders!
*
Someone needs to tell Rob Ward that his blog is full of inacurrate info!


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

slippery42 said:


> *The guys never removed or even bagged up any adders!
> *
> Someone needs to tell Rob Ward that his blog is full of inacurrate info!


The best one I found there was.

"The UK has one venomous snake, the adder and although this snake is venomous, its venom will only prove fatal if the victim suffers a severe allergic reaction, which is not treated.
The same allergic reaction can be caused from a bee sting, *so in reality the adder is about as harmless as a bee*."

Now I don't know much about the viperidae but..


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

PESKY said:


> exactly! im not agreeing* but its not illegal *so im not sure why theres even been an article written about it. if they where killing them fair enough but they were not. for all anybody knows they could have been relocating somewhere else to a better habitat, doing surveys, photographing, actualy taking them but for a conservation project? who knows


Capturing them on private land, and removing them would make you guility of poaching. Through yes, that actual keeping of adders, pending a DWA, is totally legal. 

But since this story has already been cleared up all is well. 

Jay


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## pythondave82 (Nov 14, 2007)

Seems some people have too much time on their hands. Bravo, you found the crooks!


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

pythondave82 said:


> Seems some people have too much time on their hands. Bravo, you found the crooks!


We also identified a right wally.....called Rob!


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## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

As Graeme said... here we have Highly respected herpetologists and photographers that actually care about our native species. The press and god knows who else coming down hard on them.

Yet, the amount of times i've witnessed so called conservation organisations knowingly killing smooths, adders , natrix .. whatever is in the path of their spin based heathland management... are they ever prosecuted ? Are they f' ! So long as the ramblers can see vast swathes of purple heather, the odd nightjar and warbler .. they're doing a good job, aren't they?


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## tigersnake (Sep 30, 2007)

Hi Al, Graeme, Dave, etc., I find the whole thing quite amusing, I don`t mind people knowing that I was one of the "gang" looking for adders that day. I have to contact the police in the Forest of Dean to put my case forward to them to clear it all up, and they have admitted, they are not sure of the law themselves.
I remember your photos Al, of the heathland destroyed in your area, with the resultant death of Adders and hibernacula, by these heathland management do-gooders, and these are some of the groups having a go at us just observing and photographing these animals, it makes me sick.
It will certainly not stop me from doing the same in future, and if I see a certain South African bird watcher he will need an operation to get his binoculars back, and they were big binoculars:whistling2:
Cheers,
Brian.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

tigersnake said:


> Hi Al, Graeme, Dave, etc., I find the whole thing quite amusing, I don`t mind people knowing that I was one of the "gang" looking for adders that day. I have to contact the police in the Forest of Dean to put my case forward to them to clear it all up, and they have admitted, they are not sure of the law themselves.
> I remember your photos Al, of the heathland destroyed in your area, with the resultant death of Adders and hibernacula, by these heathland management do-gooders, and these are some of the groups having a go at us just observing and photographing these animals, it makes me sick.
> It will certainly not stop me from doing the same in future, and if I see a certain South African bird watcher he will need an operation to get his binoculars back, and they were big binoculars:whistling2:
> Cheers,
> Brian.


Brian

That made me laugh

Take care

Graeme


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## atrox1 (Feb 8, 2009)

I also was one of the four men, and I dont mind telling people that. We were photographing the adders and looking after our hobby, making sure habitat is still in a respectable status. I was delighted to see that although its a very isolated population, they seem to be doing very well. I have worked within conservation of reptiles for 10 years in a zoo career, so why the hell would any of us decide to take an adder. The truth was the very opinionated bird watcher was unable to understand our hobby of photographing the adders (Even though he was there to photograph birds of prey???) not a great deal different, so as he did not have an answer to our arguement he has obviously made himself feel better by making this story up and hoping to get us in trouble. What if i went to the news papers to tell them i saw a guy nest raiding the Goss Hawk population that also lives there???? I would never consider doing this as its 1) pathetic and childish 2) i'm actually delighted to see someone has an interest of a species to take the time to see them in the wild and invest in such camera equipment to do this. Just such a shame that he's not intelligent enough to understand our fascination with reptiles.


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## Ste123 (Apr 30, 2011)

The only good thing out of this is that some concerned members of the public tried to protect the adders by reporting the incident even though all was harmless, four men in a wilderness area are not the sort of people to question if they are doing something criminal so calling the police was all they could do. 

the more people that try and protect out countries native adders the better i say even when it's wrong no harm is done.


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## Speeple (Feb 12, 2009)

Ste123 said:


> the more people that try and protect out countries native adders the better i say even when it's wrong no harm is done.


Sounds like the perfect society...


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## Faye1901 (Nov 25, 2009)

I'm writing a paper on the adder populations across the West Midlands at the moment and would hasten to add that there have been substantial losses in adders there over the past ten years. We think people have been taking them illegally after such drastic crashes in numbers, although it's almost impossible to prove.
Adder photography is awesome, although there would seem to be those that are doing more than taking pictures!


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Faye1901 said:


> I'm writing a paper on the adder populations across the West Midlands at the moment and would hasten to add that there have been substantial losses in adders there over the past ten years. We think people have been taking them illegally after such drastic crashes in numbers, although it's almost impossible to prove.
> Adder photography is awesome, although there would seem to be those that are doing more than taking pictures!


Having studied adder populations and worked in consultancy for years I am interested in how some people come to the conclusion that there is a widespread problem of people taking adders.

So perhaps you can indulge me in the following?

How many people are taking adders?

How many adders are you guessing are being taken?

Where are these "stolen" adders going?

If they are being stolen for the "pet trade" where is the evidence?

The last one is particularly important as I'm sure many of the well known licenced DWA keepers (and non licenced) would know of this and apart form one sale last year in Kent I am unaware of Adder sales in recent years.

I'm passionate about adders but seriously doubt that taking of adders has anything to do with decline.

Its more likely to be P**s poor site management as exemplified by a number of country estates, country parks and widlife trusts who generally havent got a clue.

If Natural England etc were that concerned they would add Vipera berus to the full schedule and give them full european protection.

However that aint going to happen in my lifetime.

I look forward to your answer


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

slippery42 said:


> Having studied adder populations and worked in consultancy for years I am interested in how some people come to the conclusion that there is a widespread problem of people taking adders.
> 
> So perhaps you can indulge me in the following?
> 
> ...


 
I'd agree in general terms that declines in adder populations are much more likely to be due to loss and fragmentation of habitat (either from development or incorrect management) than due to people taking or killing them.

Certainly in SE Wales over the last 10 years I've not heard of adders being collected or killed, and I've never seen them for sale, whereas I have seen slow-worms, common lizards etc for sale. From what I've seen the persecution of adders because they're venomous is greatly exaggerated, and although you're bound to get the odd farmer, gardener, walker whacking one with a stick if they see it, I don't believe there are gangs of people roaming the countryside systematically collecting or destroying these things.

Adders are never going to be afforded European-level protection like Sand Lizards and Smooth Snakes because they have such a massive range across Europe and Asia, but I do agree that they, along with grass snakes, should be bumped up on the WCA 1981 to have some sort of habitat protection under 9(4) (damage of place used for shelter or protection).


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Matt Harris said:


> I'd agree in general terms that declines in adder populations are much more likely to be due to loss and fragmentation of habitat (either from development or incorrect management) than due to people taking or killing them.
> 
> Certainly in SE Wales over the last 10 years I've not heard of adders being collected or killed, and I've never seen them for sale, whereas I have seen slow-worms, common lizards etc for sale. From what I've seen the persecution of adders because they're venomous is greatly exaggerated, and although you're bound to get the odd farmer, gardener, walker whacking one with a stick if they see it, I don't believe there are gangs of people roaming the countryside systematically collecting or destroying these things.
> 
> Adders are never going to be afforded European-level protection like Sand Lizards and Smooth Snakes because they have such a massive range across Europe and Asia, but I do agree that they, along with grass snakes, should be bumped up on the WCA 1981 to have some sort of habitat protection under 9(4) (damage of place used for shelter or protection).


We are agreed then on most things.

The thought of gangs of people wandering round stealing adders is a bizzare one to say the least


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## Faye1901 (Nov 25, 2009)

I agree, some of the site managers I've met so far have been managing the sites pretty poorly in terms of the adders and theft is certainly not the sole or even main contributor to adder population declines. 

I find it hard to believe that the declines can have been this substantial as overall the habitat in the forest of Dean should be able to support a healthy population. If I'm honest, I don't know the details, as obviously its a difficult issue to prove and I'm not sure how reliable the accounts are. Plus, this isn't really a focal point of my project. But the reports are numerous, and the adders are definitely suffering through some major input other than simply poor management. Sadly, we've collected a few dead adders just in the weeks conducting my study that have been intentionally killed.

I would love to see adders top of the priority list! That's the aim of the paper really, and, in Natural England's defence, they're a primary funder of this project. So maybe things are looking up for adder conservation. It's on their website briefly on the adder page.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Faye1901 said:


> I would love to see adders top of the priority list! That's the aim of the paper really, and, in Natural England's defence, they're a primary funder of this project. So maybe things are looking up for adder conservation. It's on their website briefly on the adder page.


Call me a cynic but I'll not hold my breath with NE being involved


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

so if adders are in serious decline, why aren't people breeding them... restocking wild areas... setting aside wild areas... you know, doing the serious conservation stuff?

are they listed as endangered?

save the adder...

also... why are they in a steep decline?

i'd think the government and conservationists would pull out all the stops and help save the adder of britain...

collecting wouldn't bother a healthy population unless it was very severe...

why are they becoming extinct... which is where they seem to be headed if a serious decline is happening...

also... what are they doing to connect fragmented, isolated populations?


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Faye1901 said:


> I'm writing a paper on the adder populations across the West Midlands at the moment and would hasten to add that there have been substantial losses in adders there over the past ten years. We think people have been taking them illegally after such drastic crashes in numbers, although it's almost impossible to prove.
> Adder photography is awesome, although there would seem to be those that are doing more than taking pictures!


 
One other problem with the collecting theory is that adders are considered to be one of the most difficult species to maintain in captivity (CB excepted). WC adders are, I believe, very demanding in captivity and simply fail to live for very long.


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## Faye1901 (Nov 25, 2009)

Lots of questions! I think I can answer all of these although would like to point out that this is work in progress for me. I hope to publish all this early next year. 

They're not extinct, although would appear to be declining. This is due to numerous factors, habitat loss and fragmentation is top of my list, persecution is another issue which is still relevant unbelievably, either directly or just through humans moving into areas where the adders are. There are influences from introduced species too, (like pheasants for example) that are competing against or putting pressure on adder populations. 

People aren't setting aside enough habitat, management is another big issue. Site managers often focus efforts elsewhere and adder habitat can be incompatible with other conserved species (orchids for example). The organisations I'm working with plan to look at long term studies pending my results, so lets hope they take things further. 

Restocking wild populations is controversial because of the genetic impacts it would have (this is what I'm interested in). Plus, they're notoriously hard to breed in captivity although some people do keep them. I know of a captive breeding programme launching in the UK soon but nobody really knows how successful it will be.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

HABU said:


> so if adders are in serious decline, why aren't people breeding them... restocking wild areas... setting aside wild areas... you know, doing the serious conservation stuff?
> 
> are they listed as endangered?
> 
> ...


The species are generally viewed as very difficult to keep in captivity.

Wild ones do not fair well and often refuse to eat.

Captive bred are available in Europe but are covered by our Dangerous Wild Animal Licencing Act.

So to answer your question it would be very hard to breed them in sufficient numbers to make any difference.

In addition releasing a venomous snakes has the added (no pun honest) problem of where to release and avoid being taken to court if someone get bitten. 

Another issue is whether the receptor site is suitable and has existing populations. Get this wrong and you'll be accused of abandonment under the Abandonment of Animals Act.

So as you see its a complicated problem with declines more likely to be poor habitat manamgement and a degree of inbreeding depression with many populations being isolated.

Look now you got me a hot under the collar!

I'll need to go lay down in a dark room now!


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

HABU said:


> so if adders are in serious decline, why aren't people breeding them... restocking wild areas... setting aside wild areas... you know, doing the serious conservation stuff?
> 
> are they listed as endangered?
> 
> ...


As with most species, in-situ conservation is by far preferable to captive breeding, and the adder, although declining, is nowhere near rare enough to warrant a captive breeding programme along the lines of the Sand Lizard. Add to this, as said above, the difficulty in maintaining wild specimens of this species in captivity.


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## wharfboy (Apr 17, 2011)

For those of us who live in Gloucestershire, the Adder is a pretty common sight. If you fancy going to photograph one, try pulling up at "The Rising Sun" hotel on Cleeve hill and go for a walk behind-- it won't be long before you see a healthy few out in the wild! Have to say, local folk seem to respect them, never heard of any being whacked on the head! We have another location- Leckhampton Hill which seems to have a fair few!


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## Rob Ward (Jun 28, 2011)

slippery42 said:


> We also identified a right wally.....called Rob!


Appreciated, thanks! 

I am the guy quoted in the newspaper regarding the adder (so called incident) in the Forest of Dean. Rob Ward.
Slippery42, you obviously have a great respect for the adder as I do, so why attack me for just being concerned? I recieved a call from a member of the public stating that there were 4 men picking up adders and that they also had containers with them. Whether this was true or no, I could not take the chance that this was not theft.
It is obvious now that is wasn't, but at the time I didn't know that.
I have been looking out for and surveying many parts of the Forest of Dean for the adder and grass snake for many years, so this was something I couldn't ignore. If someone was removing adders from this site and I ignored it, what would that look like and what would you have to say then if you found out?
I did what I thought was right at the time, albeit with inacurate information, but as I have already stated, these reptiles are a big part of my life and this Right Wally called Rob loves um!
Personally I take my hat off to the person who reported it and the Police as it is good to know that if something like this did happen, at least we know there are people out there who care and are willing to stand up to stop it.
PS: I was contacted throughout this incident, not once did I make a call to the Police, Forestry or the person who cantacted me.
I was quoted in the newspaper as saying there is a black market for these snakes now their numbers are declining. I did not say this and as many of you probably know, how many times are people misquoted in the press on a daily basis?

Long live our adders!

Rob


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