# help us figure this one out



## AuntyLizard (Feb 7, 2007)

We breed 2 Anerys together... 10 eggs hatched we got

3 Amels
4 Snows
2 anerys 
1 normal

What stumps us is the normal... We gathered from the snow and the amel that they must have a snow het.

Liz


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

Are you 100% sure that they are both anerys and that the female has not been in contact with any other males in the last year?


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## AuntyLizard (Feb 7, 2007)

intravenous said:


> Are you 100% sure that they are both anerys and that the female has not been in contact with any other males in the last year?


They are deffinately both anerys and we have had them a year now and housed seperately were only put together for the purpose of mating so the only male she has been in contact with is the male anery.


Liz


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

Liz_n_Mark said:


> They are deffinately both anerys and we have had them a year now and housed seperately were only put together for the purpose of mating so the only male she has been in contact with is the male anery.
> 
> 
> Liz


Can you post pictures of them? Two anerys cant make a normal and two anerys cant make amels so something fishy is going on. The most likely solution would be that one isnt an anery (it could be a charcoal I guess) and the only other option (if you are 100% sure she hasnt had any contact at all with any other male this year) is that something rare has happened (such as one of them being a chimera).


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

right they are both deff anerys no mistaking that and deff one normal hatchling...and surly if anerys are het snow then you can get amels iin a clutch


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

mask-of-sanity said:


> right they are both deff anerys no mistaking that and deff one normal hatchling...and surly if anerys are het snow then you can get amels iin a clutch


A snow is an amel anery. If an anery is het snow it just means that it is het amel (i.e. it has both of the components to make snows). Babies from a pair of anery parents MUST also be at least anery...its possibly that they can be amel as well as anery but that would make them snows. Amel or normal babies are therefore not possible from anery parents.

If you read this thread: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/32602-chimera-corns.html then it might give you some idea as to what the other option is.


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## AuntyLizard (Feb 7, 2007)

will post pics of Anerys tomoz... but deffo sure she has not been in contact with any other male... 

Liz


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

Liz_n_Mark said:


> will post pics of Anerys tomoz... but deffo sure she has not been in contact with any other male...
> 
> Liz


Ok  I wasn't trying to be rude suggesting that one might not be an anery...its just that charcoals and anerys can be very similar looking if you don't have a good eye for the differences (and I don't ). If one was a charcoal it would make a big difference to their genetics.

Did you buy them as anerys or did you breed them? Are they related?


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## AuntyLizard (Feb 7, 2007)

They were brought as anery's from nige(cornmorphs) who i believe brought them from some one else
Liz


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## twodogs (Jan 2, 2007)

intravenous said:


> A snow is an amel anery. If an anery is het snow it just means that it is het amel (i.e. it has both of the components to make snows). Babies from a pair of anery parents MUST also be at least anery...its possibly that they can be amel as well as anery but that would make them snows. Amel or normal babies are therefore not possible from anery parents.
> 
> If you read this thread: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/32602-chimera-corns.html then it might give you some idea as to what the other option is.


 
Disagree if they are anerys het snow ...they would be able to produce amels ..normals im not so sure on


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

twodogs said:


> Disagree if they are anerys het snow ...they would be able to produce amels ..normals im not so sure on


I don't think so. If both parents are 100% anery (NOT het anery) then all offspring have to be at least anery. 

Or that's what I think anyway :razz:.


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Male is, Anerythristic, Het for Amel
Female is, Anerythristic, Het for Amel

Offspring are predicted to be...

50.00%, Anerythristic, Het for Amel
25.00%, Snow
25.00%, Anerythristic


Thats what i get anyway.... If both parents were anerys then all offspring would have to show visible anery, which is present in a snow........on that basis, i have no idea where the visible amel or normal have come from :lol2:


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## twodogs (Jan 2, 2007)

intravenous said:


> I don't think so. If both parents are 100% anery (NOT het anery) then all offspring have to be at least anery.
> 
> Or that's what I think anyway :razz:.


 
but if both parents are het snow they would produce anerys amels and snows ...


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## twodogs (Jan 2, 2007)

wouldnt they ????


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

twodogs said:


> but if both parents are het snow they would produce anerys amels and snows ...


Het snow just means that they are anerys het amels. The only product you can get from that is anerys, anerys het amel and snows.

The post above lays it out better .


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

lol this is well odd as parents are deff anery and they only got 2 anerys out of 10 in the clutch


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

twodogs said:


> Disagree if they are anerys het snow ...they would be able to produce amels ..normals im not so sure on


Sorry, but not quite. If the parents are both anery (and the same genetic type - I believe there are actually three genetically incompatible types - which is what I think must have come together here) then they are homozygous recessive for anerytherism meaning each of the area of their genes that normally produces the red pigment (erytherin) are mutated and cannot produce them. 

Each parent has two copies of the gene that produces erytherin to pass on to the offspring. However if the parents are actually anerytheristic then both of their copies are mutated and are unable to produce the red pigment. Therefore they can ONLY pass on a mutated gene. This means ALL offspring should be at least anerytheristic. If the parents are het amelanistic, then if the two mutated 'cannot produce melanin' genes met in the same animal then the animal will be a snow.

Put simply neither of the parents carry a gene capable of producing a red pigment (hence why they are 'black and white' snakes) therefore none of the offspring will be able to produce red pigment either. Therefore the actual offspring of amels/anerys/normals and snows are actually theorectically IMPOSSIBLE from two anery parents - they simply do not carry the correct genetics.

This is why the actual morph of the parents or the identification of the offspring is being questioned. Not because we doubt the OP but they has to be something going on. It is the same as two completely normal animals (homozygote dominant - NOT hidden hets) producing amels and anerys in their offspring.


Cheers

Andy


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

mask-of-sanity said:


> lol this is well odd as parents are deff anery and they only got 2 anerys out of 10 in the clutch


The snows are perfectly normal...lots of corns are secretly het for amel. The amel and normal babies are just plain weird though :razz:. Either one of the parents is a charcoal het snow...or one of the parents is a chimera with normal het snow, or amel het anery, cells lingering around.


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Is this maybe possible?

Male is, Charcoal, Het for Snow
Female is, Anerythristic, Het for Amel

Offspring are predicted to be...
25.00%, Anerythristic, Het for Blizzard
25.00%, Het for Blizzard, Het for Anery
12.50%, Snow, Het for Charcoal
12.50%, Anerythristic, Het for Charcoal
12.50%, Amelanistic, Het for Anery, Het for Charcoal
12.50%, Het for Anery, Het for Charcoal

Which would give you the normals, snows, amels and anerys in one clutch? Just a possibility if they both appear to be anery het "snow"


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

ok ...come nigel we need your in put on this one :lol2:


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

spirit975 said:


> Is this maybe possible?
> 
> Male is, Charcoal, Het for Snow
> Female is, Anerythristic, Het for Amel
> ...


I already mentioned that but until we see pictures of both the parents theres no real way of telling :hmm:.


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

intravenous said:


> I already mentioned that but until we see pictures of both the parents theres no real way of telling :hmm:.


Yeah, sorry lol, i was writing when you put your post up so i didn`t see it until after :blush:

Pics would definitely be the best option: victory:


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

wow, interesting lol..
in theory, as andy said they should all be at least anery.. there shouldnt be anyway that anycome out normal or snow at all.
they were both deffo anerys, thats for sure. its quite rare to get a normal in that kinda clutch, let alone an amel too..
very weird, not sure what to say.
i got them from a guy on here... THINK it was gary sumpter? the website designer guy?, but you might havw to check that.


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

also, just to add.. unless mark has put the female near another male, then this will be their 1st breeding. .they were maybe 150 grams when i sold them, probably less.
the only other thingi can mention, and forgive me if someone has said it as i havent got time to read the whole lot.. but, a female can be gravid by more than one male. so its possible if somehow she HAD been near more than one male, that both lots of sperm were accepted and that she produced offspring from both fathers.


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## AuntyLizard (Feb 7, 2007)

They are kept in RUBS.... We dont have a diversity of males lol.. we have anery male, snow male and a miami male but know for sure the only male she had been in contact with was the anery.. They were put together in Feb for the purpose of breeding... 

The two snows the two anerys and the two miamis... The snow eggs hatched with 7 snows but this one has really stumped us...

I will post some pics of mum and dad along with the babies asap.

Mum was an 05 hatchling weighing just over 300 grams when we breed her. 

Liz


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

You're breaking the laws of genetics liz! :lol2:

As above I don't see how there is humanly possible a way to get that clutch from 2 anery's, it would backtrack and undo the whole concept of normal being the dominant gene.

BUT as already said, if one is charcoal... het anery/amel then you could get that clutch. Charcoals really can look very similar to anery and for me that is the only possible explanation I can think of.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

If the female animal has not been near another male, ONE of the two "anery" is a Charcoal het Anery and Amel or a chimaera who has genetic material for two separate genotypes.

Can you post photos of both parents' heads/eyes?

Someone else posted they'd gotten a normal (actually a thick-bordered Miami) out of a Snow and an "anery" where the Anery looks like it could be a charcoal, too.


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## AuntyLizard (Feb 7, 2007)

Male anery 





Female had to be photographed in tub as she has only just fed






and baby normal 




Liz


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Mum could be a charcoal, although difficult to tell - they certainly both look like Anery to me.

Was Mum ever housed with any other snake (of any gender) or has she always been on her own in her own box except when being put to the male you've shown photos of?


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## AuntyLizard (Feb 7, 2007)

No all our snakes are kept in there own tubs.... she was only put with the male in the pics for mating.

Liz


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

Liz_n_Mark said:


> No all our snakes are kept in there own tubs.... she was only put with the male in the pics for mating.
> 
> Liz


lol liz all fun isnt it ...i have offered liz and mark my anery pair for next year then we can use lizzys male with my female and my male with her female and see what happens ...if one pairing gives the same clutch as liz has now does that mean its deff a charcoal?


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

mask-of-sanity said:


> lol liz all fun isnt it ...i have offered liz and mark my anery pair for next year then we can use lizzys male with my female and my male with her female and see what happens ...if one pairing gives the same clutch as liz has now does that mean its deff a charcoal?


Yes (or a chimera), but even if it was a charcoal het snow when bred to an anery it could still technically produce all anerys so even if it doesnt produce that results it doesn't mean its not a charcoal. The best way to test would be to breed them both to charcoals.


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

intravenous said:


> Yes (or a chimera), but even if it was a charcoal het snow when bred to an anery it could still technically produce all anerys so even if it doesnt produce that results it doesn't mean its not a charcoal. The best way to test would be to breed them both to charcoals.


so looking at the parents what would you say they are


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

mask-of-sanity said:


> so looking at the parents what would you say they are


As I said earlier...my eye for different morphs is rubbish . I understand the genetics well but I can't visually tell the difference between anerys and charcoals. Ssthisto gave her opinion but you would be as well asking some others who are up on corn morphs. Maybe Cornmorphs? You could always post a new thread in the snake section asking for opinions.


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

i think we have our answer.. chimera then.
they are both anerys for certain.


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## biglad52002 (Mar 9, 2007)

are you sure the normal youve got isnt a caramel or something

cheers

Paul


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

biglad52002 said:


> are you sure the normal youve got isnt a caramel or something
> 
> cheers
> 
> Paul


Anerythristic masks caramel - an animal that is homozygous caramel and homozygous anerythristic looks like an anerythristic. A very clean, low yellow, high contrast anery.

The normal looks like a normal, and I'm betting the Amels look like Amels.


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