# has anyone ever kept an Amazon tree boa with dart frogs?



## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

Just wondering if anyone has or heard of someone who successfully kept an Amazon tree boa in the same enclosure as darts, I've kept both species before but don't know if the atb would try and eat the frogs.


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

99.9% sure you'd not have any frogs left


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

It is interesting because the dart frog colourings are a deterrents to predators including snakes of the amazon lol. 

I still wouldn't recommend it. I think some zoos do in massive enclosures, but then again, they have been known to hybridise darts. 

Callum


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

Meefloaf said:


> 99.9% sure you'd not have any frogs left


Yeah that's my fear, but I thought maybe the tree boa would instinctively not mess with them due to the bright colours.


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

ah, but do most dart frogs in captivity reach their true colours ? also, they'll be scared and probably die from stress


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

All theoretical, Vivs aren't the Amazon lol. The tree boa might even be the one who gets stressed and suffers. I just wouldn't try it or risk it. They are both stunning in their own right, leave it at that on my opinion.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Honestly don't know if it relates to darts or not, but my standard answer to mixing frogs and snakes is based on the often-touted suggestion that rough green snakes are 'ideal' to house with anoles and/or green treefrogs, since they only eat insects. This is true, but *the lizards and frogs don't know that*. Millions of years of evolution has taught them that snake = enemy, and the stress of being housed in close quarters together is very detrimental. On that basis amongst others, I'd say don't do it.


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## FrogNick (Jul 2, 2009)

Chester zoo keep some sort of small vipers with auratus with out any issues spoke to one of the keepers says they don't bother them. The tank was big though about a 1 meter cubed.


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

FrogNick said:


> Chester zoo keep some sort of small vipers with auratus with out any issues spoke to one of the keepers says they don't bother them. The tank was big though about a 1 meter cubed.


This was pretty much what I was going to say. If you're creating an enclosure the size of a spare room (if anybody has seen the iguana setup at Wharf Aquatics you'll know what I mean) then it could work. If you're sticking and ATB in a 45x45x60 Exo with frogs in you've definitely got problems as Amazons have trouble distinguishing fingers from rodents, God knows what they'd do with darts!

I've said it many,many times on here that my dream setup will include a small group of rough greens, a colony of USA green tree frogs and a few anoles however I'm aiming for at least 3 foot wide by 3 foot tall and 18 inches to 2 feet deep (once the kids have moved out  ). Basically it's down to what Ron has mentioned about stress that's making me go for something that big (if not even bigger) and this is for snakes that don't even naturally predate the frogs or lizards. I think going for the mix you've suggested would look awesome Creg but it's just not worth the risks.


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

Thanks for the input everyone I agree with everything that's been said. My viv isn't small by any means (60x50x100cm) but I think the risk of stress or predation wouldn't be worth it, I am however looking at mixing phelsuma with darts.

I only got this viv yesterday from chrism and it needs some work doing so I will be starting a journal soon. Hopefully you guys can offer me some advice on how to improve it plants wise etc.


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Mix phelsuma and mantella. At least they ate from the same country. 

P. Klemmeri and golden mantella would be my choice.


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

plasma234 said:


> Mix phelsuma and mantella. At least they ate from the same country.
> 
> P. Klemmeri and golden mantella would be my choice.


Yeah klemmeri are the ones I was looking at, they are stunning. The only thing that puts me off mixing them with mantella though is the temperature differences, mantella like it cool if I'm not mistaken whereas phelsuma like it warm like 80 Fahrenheit.


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

With a height of 1 m you should be able to provide a temp gradient. The klemmeri would occupy the warmer top layers of the viv, whilst the mantella would stay in the lower cooler portion of the viv. Kind of like they would in the wild. I would set the viv up for klemmeri and then monitor the temps in the lower half, my guess would be with a thick enough canopy and enough ventilation the bottom 1/3 would stay within suitable parameters and the top half being good for the klemerri. With a bit of a neutral zone in the middle. 

A setup where two animals can have there own niche in a viv is what you are looking for. If you had two dianural, aboreal species, with the same temp requirements, eating the same food you will encounter competition and therefore stress. If you can create a niche ( the lower cooler part and a higher warmer part) for the two then the chances of them competing for food is decreased. 

Like I said, set it up for klemmeri and then see if you can match a mantella species to it. It would be much more difficult to adpat a dart/mantella viv to house a day gecko.


Edit: 

I knew I had seen golden and klemerri before 
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/habitat/935773-madagascan-viv-project-5-mega-7.html


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

plasma234 said:


> With a height of 1 m you should be able to provide a temp gradient. The klemmeri would occupy the warmer top layers of the viv, whilst the mantella would stay in the lower cooler portion of the viv. Kind of like they would in the wild. I would set the viv up for klemmeri and then monitor the temps in the lower half, my guess would be with a thick enough canopy and enough ventilation the bottom 1/3 would stay within suitable parameters and the top half being good for the klemerri. With a bit of a neutral zone in the middle.
> 
> A setup where two animals can have there own niche in a viv is what you are looking for. If you had two dianural, aboreal species, with the same temp requirements, eating the same food you will encounter competition and therefore stress. If you can create a niche ( the lower cooler part and a higher warmer part) for the two then the chances of them competing for food is decreased.
> 
> ...


Yeah that was pretty much my thinking regarding temp gradient, it is a very tall viv so should be a bit cooler at the bottom. Would a crested gecko not be a safer option? they are nocturnal and can be raised just to feed on repashys cgd so no competition for food, they also tolerate slightly cooler room temps. Thanks for the link i'll check that out now.


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

i dont personally like the idea of getting two different species of animals from other sides of the planet and chucking them in together because you kind of can. 

ATB and Some Darts, similar part of the world

Some Phelsuma and Some Mantella, similar part of the world

Darts + Phelsuma? 9000miles apart

Darts + Crested? 8000miles apart

Crested + Mantella? 7500miles apart. 

Its like trying to put penguins on the north pole mate, sure they're both cold, but it's completely different.





p.s.

how long do you intend on keeping these for?

i have flicked through your previous threads and all i see is you buy an animal then a couple of months later, sell it? Usually at a greatly reduced cost. Let me know when you get bored of your darts mate


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

plasma234 said:


> p.s.
> 
> how long do you intend on keeping these for?
> 
> i have flicked through your previous threads and all i see is you buy an animal then a couple of months later, sell it? Usually at a greatly reduced cost. Let me know when you get bored of your darts mate


A bit off topic don't you think? i have bought and sold a few of my reptiles for various reasons and they have always gone to good homes, a couple of months is a bit of an exaggeration but even if it was i don't feel the need to justify anything to you or anyone else on here.


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

cool dude, maybe you sold them becuase you were starving them?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

FrogNick said:


> Chester zoo keep some sort of small vipers with auratus with out any issues spoke to one of the keepers says they don't bother them. The tank was big though about a 1 meter cubed.


I saw an article in the Dutch dendro magazine. Aguy had built a massive walk in exhibit like a conservatory. At times he had various Dendrobates, lizards and snakes in there. But this was so massive it was like a zoo exhibit.

He had problems though because he had a disease which killed most of his frogs and the floor started leaking. Whilst big exhibits sound good they do have drawbacks.


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

Did I really hurt your feelings by questioning mix species that much that you felt the need to search through all my history on rfuk? You are pathetic mate seriously.

That's aimed at "plasma" BTW not you colinm.


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Question as much as you like dude, it is a public forum. 


Ahh, maybe your A.D.D. kicked in, the name is in my signature. It is a six letter word so i will let you off.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Gods, where did all that come from? :gasp:

Now, play nicely, children, or Uncle Ron will be *very* disappointed! :devil:

:lol2:

Being serious for a second, supposing you are contemplating mixed vivs in the first place, the 'geographical' argument is one of those that I find most issues with. If we are talking about pathogen transmission it is valid in the wild- first example I can think of is the introduction by a North American crayfish of a disease deadly to European crayfish- but for captive herptiles, that's what quarantine is for. If we are talking major habitat differences, I have lived in a number of tropical countries, and I can tell you that in Brazil and Sri Lanka (for example), at sea-level, not only are the basic conditions very similar, but a great many plants are identical, having been imported, reimported and moved around the tropics generally. There is far more of a variation between the conditions, fauna and flora of the highlands of Sri Lanka and the coast than there is between the lowlands of both countries. Also, many 'exotic' species manage to find a niche in countries very far from their origin indeed- cane toads are probably the most notorious, but anoles, American bullfrogs and many others manage to establish themselves in countries and territories far from their place of origin- various dart species in Hawaii, for example. This is not to say that foriegn introductions are good, just that it matters less what continent the animal comes from than the local conditions in terms of temperature, humidity etc. So a frog from coastal Brazil might very well be at home in the kind of conditions found in coastal Sri Lanka, but absolutely *not* in the highlands of that island, where nights can include frost all year round. 

Ooh, one more point; Ronny, mate, it's rare that I disagree with you, but even in a pretty large viv, I'd still be dubious on the inclusion of the snakes. Just saying...


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

Ron Magpie said:


> Ooh, one more point; Ronny, mate, it's rare that I disagree with you, but even in a pretty large viv, I'd still be dubious on the inclusion of the snakes. Just saying...


Ron, I have no issues with having discussions with you fella as I know we're grown up enough to at least take each others opinions on board :2thumb:

The idea behind snakes is one it took a LOT of thought to decide it would be worth it. It kinda covers the whole point that rough greens are diurnal, the frogs are not. In a viv that big there should be adequate room to have separate territories however I'd be willing to pull the snakes if need be. The plan is a few inches of water at the bottom with live bearers and a live in colony of insects (although that's going to take more research) to act as something to distract the snakes.

As I say this is a pipe dream for a good few years down the line when I can convert one of the kids bedrooms in to an animal den. The Mrs is trying to convince me on to faceache, I'm trying to convince her to let me have a zoo cave 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

ronnyjodes said:


> Ron, I have no issues with having discussions with you fella as I know we're grown up enough to at least take each others opinions on board :2thumb:
> 
> The idea behind snakes is one it took a LOT of thought to decide it would be worth it. It kinda covers the whole point that rough greens are diurnal, the frogs are not. In a viv that big there should be adequate room to have separate territories however I'd be willing to pull the snakes if need be. The plan is a few inches of water at the bottom with live bearers and a live in colony of insects (although that's going to take more research) to act as something to distract the snakes.
> 
> ...


Don't think I'm not onto your game, Mr Jhodes- you are trying to enlist me in a game of double-emotional blackmail! 



Done! :2thumb:


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