# Hamm Deaths



## frog boy (Mar 16, 2008)

Ladies and Gentlemen. Boys and Girls.

I have been asked to post this information:

Having begun court proceedings against the 2 individuals that operate Coachtotheshow. In order to recover the financial losses that I suffered, when the animals I purchased died in transit from the Hamm reptile show in March 2008.
I am pleased to announce that an out of court agreement has been reached.
For my part I have been asked to acknowledge that the welfare of the animals is not the responsibility of the organisers.

What you may be interested to read is that according to the mediation service:

Coachtotheshow do not market themselves as organisers of coach trips to go buy reptiles and amphibians. But only to take people to reptile fairs such as Hamm.

Apparently they stopped 3 times on the return journey in order that people could check the boxes of animals. Interesting can’t recall that happening, and as they do not market themselves as organisers of coach trips to buy animals why would they?

Apparently it’s common knowledge that I was taking these people to court on the forums, well as I have never placed anything about taking them to court on the forums and have been most careful who I have told of this action I’m not sure how.

Well what does this mean for future travellers?

Your animals, your responsibility, even if they are loaded against the engine compartment.

Hopefully you won’t suffer like I have and receive the reply: that I would have to take legal action in order to recover my losses. (A response that staggered a former Head of Trading Standards)

PS. I was offered free tickets to travel with them too the next Hamm event, I politely declined.

Your choice people.:lol2:

Frog Boy


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## yellow_python (May 14, 2007)

Do you mind saying what the 'out of court settlement' was? Was it the total cost of ll animals lost? or part of?

Your not the only one who lost animals on a similar trip so any more info would help a lot


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

frog boy said:


> Hopefully you won’t suffer like I have and receive the reply: that I would have to take legal action in order to recover my losses. (A response that staggered a former Head of Trading Standards)
> 
> PS. *I was offered free tickets to travel with them too the next Hamm event, I politely declined.*
> 
> ...


sorry, that made me LMAO :lol2:


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

frog boy said:


> PS. I was offered free tickets to travel with them too the next Hamm event, I politely declined.
> 
> Your choice people.:lol2:
> 
> Frog Boy


 I am unsure how you managed to stay polite... bravo...

Thank you for posting this !!!!


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

to anyone who's been on one of the coachtrips, what measures do they put in place to stop people putting the reps they buy in their handbag and taking them on the coach instead of loading them? With small reps i dont see why that's not allowed, then surely the onus is on the buyer and the organisers won't be left open to action.


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## Living Rain (Aug 31, 2006)

Really glad to hear you got a positive out come although No animal deaths would have been better.

Did you get compensation for all that where lost ?

I know a few people who lost alot of money, but some where rare geckos to get your hands on also.

If people had supported Brian when he ran the Hamm trips none of this might of happened - as he is a reptile kepper and not just in it for the money side.

Cheers Steve


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## gtm (Jan 23, 2008)

I can't see how other people will be 'bound' by an out of court settlement. I think that the coachtotheshow people should have done more sooner to investigate / prevent deaths. Instead it happened on 2 separate trips that I'm aware of. Furthermore, any complaints were met with counter allegations of neglect & laughable threats of legal action. :bash:


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## reptiles-ink (Nov 4, 2006)

I have been on 3 trips with them, 1 of them being the trip in question.
I was fortunate to have not had any losses on any of the trips, the same goes for my brother who was on 2 of them.
We ensure that our reps are packed suitably allowing plenty of airspace in the boxes.

Also the rules for the transit of the reps has changed permitting them to travel inside the coach with you.

On the trip in question there were several people that had so many purchases they were cramming them into the polly boxes in order to fit them all in. I'm not saying that the op was 1 of these but there were definately some people that were simply foolish.


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## LEXCORN (Feb 9, 2007)

Living Rain said:


> Really glad to hear you got a positive out come although No animal deaths would have been better.
> 
> Did you get compensation for all that where lost ?
> 
> ...


Well said Steve, 

We travel over to Houten & Hamm incorporating a small vacation staying with relatives. But would not hesitate to travel with Brian Davies were it not for family commitments.

Trouble is that everyone wants something cheaper & the plain fact is "you get what you pay for".

Sad to say that the animals payed the ultimate price here.

Regards. Lex


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## Issa (Oct 13, 2006)

Congrats on the result, but I bet this thread ends up deleted or heavily edited before I get back from work tonight.


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

I'd never get a bloody bus to an event so far away anyhow. Wouldn't risk it myself. Exposure too high and prolonged.


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## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

I think you would be much better off splitting the cost and driving with someone/anyone than going on a coach. For the comfort factor if nothing else.

And not listening to Niges snoring... I hear its legendary..


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## Living Rain (Aug 31, 2006)

LEXCORN said:


> Well said Steve,
> 
> We travel over to Houten & Hamm incorporating a small vacation staying with relatives. But would not hesitate to travel with Brian Davies were it not for family commitments.
> 
> ...


Thanks Lex,
Usually i just read and don't say much, but with the way people where treated - threatend etc had to say a line or two.

Bring back the caring coach trips - COME ON BRIAN :2thumb: :notworthy:.

Steve



Issa said:


> Congrats on the result, but I bet this thread ends up deleted or heavily edited before I get back from work tonight.


Hope not, about time the truth stays up for everyone to see as although peoples pockets have suffered - it's the death of animals that is the important point here.

Steve


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## SSamm (Mar 9, 2006)

well last visit the animals were with us and we could check every couple of hours, was really good


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## Mush (Jan 20, 2008)

I think people should keep their opinion to themselves in this matter to be honest.

the op told of the outcome of the proceedings and therefore this matter has been dealt with and has highlighted thatthe buyers are the ones who need to take a bit more responsibility.

The thing is any animal can die in transit, wether its 20 miles or 200, especially froma show, you have no idea of its past


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## tarantulabarn (Apr 21, 2005)

Further to a mediated agreement last week, I would like to clarify a few points.

1) Mediation instigated by the organisers was based upon the issue of responsibility and liability for Animal welfare.

2) Discussion took place as to the events of that trip, actions that were or were not taken and the end results.

3) It was part of the mediation, that it was recognised that Coachtotheshow has never advertised its services as a reptile courier, in fact that we discouraged the commercial transportation, and that whilst we were, and still are, authorised to transport animals commercially (as individuals) this we do not extend to the coach trips due to the duration of some parts of the travel.

4) It was pointed out that the coaches DID stop on route, but we did concede that some passengers may have been unaware of the ability to check animals, but further pointed out that none asked to do so. We also pointed out that whilst we thought our procedures were sufficient, we had already changed them to ensure passengers where aware, and do have plenty of chances to check animals on route.

5) As part of the agreement, the plaintiff accepted that the responsibility and thus the liability for Animal welfare was indeed that of the passenger and not the organisers.

6) The Plaintiff accepted our request, that he would make his acceptance of point 2, public by way of posts on two reptile related forums that we selected, despite his questioning if this would be a good idea.

7) Once mediation had resolved the responsibility issue, we were happy to discuss ways that the plaintiff could find closure to the issue. After a number of attempts, our final offer was that of a pair of tickets on our next trip or the cash alternative to a pair of tickets on the trip the plaintiff was on. 

This offer was made strictly as an alternative to coach tickets and not as any form as compensation, and this fact is recorded in the terms of mediation.

9) Subject to the completion of the agreed terms, the court hearing instigated by the plaintiff for 'Breach of contract' shall stand dismissed.

10) The above agreement is summarised and documented in the settlement agreement document provided by the mediation service. We will NOT be releasing this document into the public domain in observance of the confidentiality of all parties and the mediation service.

So, to summarise:

We have NOT paid any compensation for the deaths of any animals, as none would be payable due to the animal responsibility issue noted above, and agreed upon by both parties.

An offer of Tickets, or the cash alternative was made and accepted by the plaintiff.

Any court action by the plaintiff will stand dismissed as a result of this mediation.

The lessons:

Passengers do need to take responsibility for their animals, both morally and legally. 

As organisers, we have always accepted that buying animals is a distinct possibility on our trips, and that the arrangements we had made need to be improved upon.

We have already taken on many of the constructive suggestions to ensure even better enjoyment of the trip and higher survival rates, although the very nature of the trips involve risks, both before, during and afterwards.

For our part, we will continue to endeavour to ensure the best possible welfare conditions are available for our passengers to take advantage of, within the constraints of the trip, and will endeavour to ensure those passengers who do purchase animals are made aware of the conditions and are encouraged to make use of them.

We will also endeavour to make clearer the role of the passenger in the care of their animals and to clarify that we are not animal couriers and that Coachtotheshow does not represent itself as being such.


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

tarantulabarn said:


> 3) It was part of the mediation, that it was recognised that Coachtotheshow has never advertised its services as a reptile courier, in fact that we discouraged the commercial transportation, and that whilst we were, and still are, authorised to transport animals commercially (as individuals) this we do not extend to the coach trips due to the duration of some parts of the travel.


this point in particular interests me because I believe a courier service for animals from Hamm to the purchasers door was offered on another forum by coach to the show organisers. Surely therefore you DO advocate them as a means of reptile couriering? Or that service would not be offered?


http://************reptileforum.com/lizard-classifieds/11536-geckosetc-hamm.html


Confused....


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## tarantulabarn (Apr 21, 2005)

missk said:


> this point in particular interests me because I believe a courier service for animals from Hamm to the purchasers door was offered on another forum by coach to the show organisers. Surely therefore you DO advocate them as a means of reptile couriering? Or that service would not be offered?
> 
> 
> http://************reptileforum.com/lizard-classifieds/11536-geckosetc-hamm.html
> ...


as that link doesnt work i have copied it

Now you can buy that beautyful morph, direct from the breeder and have it hand delivered to your door.

Deal direct with the breeder, dont pay delivery until your new pet arrives !

Collection from Hamm and delivery to you for £45 anywhere in England. (Scotland and wales by quote)

Take a look at whats on offer at Geckos Etc. Herpetoculture - High Quality, Healthy Leopard and Knobtail Geckos 


A post made by purejurassic,(much the same as loads of other offers of collection made by many members) NOT COACH TO THE SHOW, His offer, His service, His resposibility


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

That's funny since he also made a thread directly promoting coach to the show. If you actively discourage the use of the coach as a means of coiriering why allow this ad?


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## tarantulabarn (Apr 21, 2005)

If any passengers decide to bring animals back, and believe it or not only about 60% do, then they can, provided they stick to the rules regarding the transport of animals, which incidently are not our rules


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

Tops said:


> I think you would be much better off splitting the cost and driving with someone/anyone than going on a coach. For the comfort factor if nothing else.
> 
> And not listening to Niges snoring... I hear its legendary..


 OI, carry on like that and you'll be the next one getting sued :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## tarantulabarn (Apr 21, 2005)

And not listening to Niges snoring... I hear its legendary..[/quote]

Brings a new meaning to the word "FOG WARNING" :lol2:


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

tarantulabarn said:


> If any passengers decide to bring animals back, and believe it or not only about 60% do, then they can, provided they stick to the rules regarding the transport of animals, which incidently are not our rules


This does not explain their creation of a thread promoting coach to the show, in which they talk about the service as though directly involved in it. Still confused...


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## tarantulabarn (Apr 21, 2005)

missk said:


> This does not explain their creation of a thread promoting coach to the show, in which they talk about the service as though directly involved in it. Still confused...


Sorry i dont quite understand this reply (had a long day) who are "they"


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

tarantulabarn said:


> And not listening to Niges snoring... I hear its legendary..


Brings a new meaning to the word "FOG WARNING" :lol2:[/quote]
ironically, i dont snore at home... it seems to be sitting up on coaches lol


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

i have driven reptiles, from Sheffield to Berlin, taking it steady so 18 hours fine, sat on my back seat in a box, and we have a BD that was born in Denmark that was driven over with many many others..

reptiles are hardy, keep them cool and they travel well, its only a few more unusual things that are not as easy.


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

First off I want to make it clear I am genuinely curious, not trying to discredit anyone or start arguements, but some of this just isn't adding up! I hope its ok, since the last link didnt work I just cut and pasted this from another forum (highlighted in red the bits which directly link the individual offering a courier service from hamm (supposedly discouraged by coach to the show organisers) with advertising coach to the show services as though they themselves are an organiser of the service):







Purejurrasic








Purejurrasic _has a different use for t bags _
Administrator








Elite Mahjong Full Champion! Hairball Bowling Champion! Island Bowling Champion!

Location: Brighton
Age: 40
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*So, What is 'Hamm' ?* 
Hamm, or more correctly, Terraristika Hamm, is a reptile show held 3 times a year in a small German town called.... Hamm ! 

Run buy a team lead by Frank, they also run a number of other animal related shows, but Terraristika has grown to be the biggest Reptile show in Europe, possibly the world.

Hundreds of traders gather early in the morning to set up ready for between 12,000 and 14,000 buyers ! Theres a huge range of species on offer, and many breeders and traders will take advance orders so you can collect your new pet on the day.

So, how can you get there?

There are many ways to get to Hamm. Some people like to fly, as its faster and with cheap flights all around can be cost effective. The big problem with flying is the transport of any animals back to the UK. You have to make special arrangements with your airline for this.

You can also drive there, we have done this many times, often with a convoy of cars. Just remember, its quite a way, infact from calais to Hamm is around 290 miles and 5 hours driving time, so leave plenty of time for rests.

If you are driving, dont forget that you will be driving in four countries, and each have thier own driving rules, for example, in Germany the alcohol level limit for driving is nil ! (so dont have a crafty one in the cafe !). You will also need items such as warning triangles, first aid kits, Hi vis jackets fire extinguisher, and headlight adjusters. If you are planning to drive, we suggest you check all the rules before you travel, and make sure you have the correct cover for both insurance and breakdown.

You can also ride the *coach*. There are a few ways to do this, but with coachtotheshow, our luxury European cruise coaches pick you up from one of nine pick up points across England, Scotland and Wales. They whisk you to an exclusive meeting point near the Eurotunnel.

Here, at Ashford Truck Stop, there is time to have a good meal, freshen up, Have a beer at the bar, even take a shower !

Then its onwards through the tunnel and through the night until we arrive at the show. We spend all day at the show, then make our return back through the tunnel to the Truck Stop.

Then all the coaches split up and return you to your pick up point.

So, we take all the worry about long drives, all the extras needed in the car, all the cost of fuel, crossing the boarders etc. out of the trip. 

You also have the benefit of going with those who have been many times before, and can get the chance of meeting up with others.

In addition, we have arranged to get our passengers tickets early so you dont even need to que to buy them.

Thats the low down on Hamm, if you have never been then Its a must !

If you have been, you will want to go back.


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## tarantulabarn (Apr 21, 2005)

PJ is an organiser with coachtotheshow. As such he is free to promote it. However, he is not restricted to only that activity, he has his own life and that includes many other aspects, one of which happens to be a relationship with a number of large American Gecko breeders.

He has advertised that he can provide a collection / delivery service for these breeders. He is the holder of a SVS transport authority and has business insurance on his car. He takes responsibility for the service he offers. 

The service HE offers has never, and never will be, on offer from coach to the show. NOWHERE has he or any one else EVER stated the service was provided by coachtotheshow. 

Coachtotheshow has never been advertised as a courier service. 

Purejurrasic has offered a courier service.

So, to steal a famous tv adverts saying:

If you want to go to a show, goto coachtotheshow.com,

If you want geckos brought back from a show, goto purejurrasic


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

I assume PJ uses the coach as a means of couriering the animals from Hamm to the UK, after which they move to his own vehicle. 

this does not fall under the banner of coachtotheshow discouraging couriering of animals via the coach as per your numbered point, as organisers are in fact doing it themselves.

unless the offered courier service is unsuitable, which in coachtotheshow's mind it is because it is discouraged, why is it offered by seomeone who is supposed to discourage it? 

It is hypocritical.


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## tarantulabarn (Apr 21, 2005)

We discourage third party collections but do not ban it, mainly for space on the coach reasons, which is also another point raised which has been addressed


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

Well I am glad this has all been cleared up. I personally would never risk bringing animals back on a coach. We went to Hamm in March and are going again in December. We drove all the way there, crossed on the eurotunnel train, stayed in a hotel and then drove back the next day after the show. Cost us around £300 including petrol, hotel and train crossing but it was worth it to know that the animals were safe and comfortable.


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