# Venomoids



## Zimey (Sep 28, 2008)

Right I was thinking the other day, if a venomous snake had its venom removed, would his normal feeding behaviour also change. Many inject venom, wait for the juice to do its business, then go back to its food later I believe right? Well if the snake had its venom removed would it realise this and start to constrict to kill or would it carry on its normal behaviour, to no prevail?


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## Razorscale (Feb 22, 2010)

It's wrong, venomglands shouldnt be removed from a snake(even though you didnt ask that i wanted to throw it in) Venom helps in the digestion of the prey before the animal eats it. And it wouldnt start to constrict its prey, as far as the snake knows, it still has its gland.


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## Cleopatra the Royal (Nov 29, 2008)

I completely disagree with venomoids, but out of interest, do you still need a DWAL to keep them?

Harry


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Zimey said:


> Right I was thinking the other day, if a venomous snake had its venom removed, would his normal feeding behaviour also change. Many inject venom, wait for the juice to do its business, then go back to its food later I believe right? Well if the snake had its venom removed would it realise this and start to constrict to kill or would it carry on its normal behaviour, to no prevail?


If it was fed on defrost prey, I don't think it'd behave any different to its usual feeding pattern (in other words, if it's a species that can constrict if it chooses to, it might do, but otherwise bite-wait for "death"-feed would be the expected pattern)- presumably a venomoid whose owner against all common sense decided to feed on live prey would be at a _serious _disadvantage.



Cleopatra the Royal said:


> I completely disagree with venomoids, but out of interest, do you still need a DWAL to keep them?


Yes, in the UK you still require a DWAL to keep a venomoid animal - firstly because they are of the named species (no matter what's been done to them), secondly because they can produce fully capable offspring and thirdly because not all venomoid surgery is successful - you might have an animal you thought was harmless but isn't.


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## williamsom (Feb 24, 2009)

yeah u still need a dwa for them in the event of breeding the young wouldnt be venomoid


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## Razorscale (Feb 22, 2010)

Cleopatra the Royal said:


> I completely disagree with venomoids, but out of interest, do you still need a DWAL to keep them?
> 
> Harry


I would guess you would since they are still the sp thats on the list, and when glands are removed, sometimes its not 100% effective(correct me if im wrong, but its what i heard/read) ive read about a albino kaouthia being a "venomoid" but still being able to kill large rabbits with a bite.


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## Zimey (Sep 28, 2008)

Razorscale said:


> It's wrong, venomglands shouldnt be removed from a snake(even though you didnt ask that i wanted to throw it in)





Cleopatra the Royal said:


> I completely disagree with venomoids, but out of interest, do you still need a DWAL to keep them?
> 
> Harry


Yeah I know people have strong views on the subject but wasnt the aim of this thread guys.



Ssthisto said:


> If it was fed on defrost prey, I don't think it'd behave any different to its usual feeding pattern (in other words, if it's a species that can constrict if it chooses to, it might do, but otherwise bite-wait for "death"-feed would be the expected pattern)- presumably a venomoid whose owner against all common sense decided to feed on live prey would be at a _serious _disadvantage.


Yeah thats what I was thinking mate, if it was feeding on live prey items it would as you said have a serious disadvantage. I wonder whether the snake would realise they have no venom or whether they would be none the wiser?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Zimey said:


> Yeah thats what I was thinking mate, if it was feeding on live prey items it would as you said have a serious disadvantage. I wonder whether the snake would realise they have no venom or whether they would be none the wiser?


I would have thought that - assuming the prey kept running around and merrily ignoring "venomous" bites (and the PREY didn't twig that "hey, this stings a bit, but I'm not dying and it keeps retreating every time it bites me... maybe I can kick the crap out of it") - the majority of snake species would continue what they're essentially biologically programmed to do. 

Some venomous species bite and hold - those might have an extremely unpleasant experience when their injured and very upset prey starts retaliating from in their mouth.
Some venomous species might start throwing their weight around and using the "squash it against a wall" method if the usual didn't work - but only if it's within their normal range of prey-acquisition behaviours anyway.

There are very few snake species that I would assume the intelligence to work out that the usual strategy isn't working and that something else is needed - let alone how to work around the problem. I think you'd wind up with the majority of species either being seriously injured by the prey animal OR retreating away from the prey animal.

Conversely, if you rigged up an animatronic "rat" for a nonvenomous constricting species - that was warm like a rodent, moved like a rodent and smelled like a rodent (or at least enough like one to trigger a feeding response) and on which constriction didn't work.... you'd have pretty much the same scenario. Snake tries the method that it's programmed for, method fails; snake tries to eat the thing while it's still moving, is injured in the attempt to "kill" the prey item or retreats from prey item.


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## Khaos (Jul 9, 2007)

Also, the OP is assuming that without venom, a snake would revert to constricting. Not all have the strength or instinct to do so.


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## Zimey (Sep 28, 2008)

Khaos said:


> Also, the OP is assuming that without venom, a snake would revert to constricting. Not all have the strength or instinct to do so.


What species dosent have the strength to constrict?


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## FrozenCity (Jun 15, 2011)

Zimey said:


> What species dosent have the strength to constrict?


Twig snake


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## Zimey (Sep 28, 2008)

FrozenCity said:


> Twig snake


Is that a fact or a guess?

Here is a quick link with some pictures at the end of it;

Twig Snake

Im pretty sure they would have the strength to take down a small baby chameleon without venom if they had to.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

I wouldn't have thought it's the strength so much that's an issue.

You don't see a starving cow chasing down deer to eat - it's not part of their programming, no matter how edible a deer might be, nor whether they'd eat venison if you offered it to them at grass level. It just wouldn't "occur" to them that it's possible to obtain food in that fashion.

If a snake doesn't have "constrict prey animal" as part of its normal behavioural repertoire, it's unlikely to suddenly start doing it in response to "normal feeding method isn't working."


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## Zimey (Sep 28, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> I wouldn't have thought it's the strength so much that's an issue.
> 
> You don't see a starving cow chasing down deer to eat - it's not part of their programming, no matter how edible a deer might be, nor whether they'd eat venison if you offered it to them at grass level. It just wouldn't "occur" to them that it's possible to obtain food in that fashion.
> 
> If a snake doesn't have "constrict prey animal" as part of its normal behavioural repertoire, it's unlikely to suddenly start doing it in response to "normal feeding method isn't working."


Yeah the strength point was more as a response to Khaos mate. Thats what I was trying to find out whether they would change their feeding behaviour or would they just continue the way they always had and to know prevail. Would be interesting to find out whether they had the intelligence to know that the "normal" method isnt working, lets try something else, or not that might be the case.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Would have thought that the only way to find out is to contact one of the groups that produces/works with venomoids and see if there's any practical experience out there... but you may hit a wall if they all say "don't be silly, you just don't give a live prey item to a venomoid snake."

Conversely, find out if a given species of venomous snake ever obtains prey *without* using its venom (for example, do heavy-bodied or large animals ever use the "squash it" method?) opportunistically - because that'd imply that they have another card in the deck if the Ace doesn't work.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

My thoughts and opinions...

Venomoids are an unfortunate part of the hobby... There will always be people who want to keep venomous species without the worry of being bitten... It is a short cut taken by some who have no reguard for the snake... After working with venomous there comes a time where you do not worry so much about getting bitten... This is whn you are confident in your handling and protocol...

While it is believed by some that they need venom to digest their prey, this is simply untrue... This is an argument brought up by people who are against venimoid... I am one who is against the production of venomoids but I do not agree with making false statements to prove your point... 

Many of my venomous snakes do not even strike their prey these days... They have become used to the fact that their prey does not run or struggle being that they are already dead... Many do not even use their fangs... Besides that even if they did inject venom into a dead prey item, it will do nothing in the way of starting the digestion process... Venom will not run through the blood stream and will not work on dead tissue...

Snakes will not change their feeding habbits... If a snake is not a constrictor, it will not all of a sudden learn to constrict

To me, venomoids can be more dangerous than fully equiped venomous snakes... Reason being is that with an intact venomous snake, you know the bite can be debilitating or fatal... This means you will do what is needed to not put yourself in danger... With a venomoid, people will treat them like a giant garter snake and there is always the chance that the operation was not done correctly... So when you reach in to grab that venomoid cobra with your hands because it is not venomous anymore, you can find yourself in a life or death situation if a bit of gland was left in its head...

My opinion is, if you want to keep a venomous snake, go through the proper step and do not take a short cut like a venomoid...


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## shphillips26 (Jul 26, 2010)

Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but don't some spp. also use the scent of the venom to track down the stricken prey once it's run off? So in that way it would be a disadvantage in that sense.

I would have to agree on the issue that a venomous snake would begin to constrict it's prey if the venom glands had been removed. They don't have the cognative power to adapt in such a fundmental way.


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

yes its shown that snakes such as rattlesnakes follow the trail scent of there own venom to find the killed pey once its been bit and ran off. 
But thats in the wild, in CB it wouldnt really need it as we normally feed defrost and some not all snaks strike.


As for venomoids such as monocled cobras they in CB usually feed on defrost and again they will normally strike and hold and in that sense there is no change to normal behaviour. Remember a venomoid doesnt know its a venomoid, and there instinctive actions will be the same fully loaded or not.
I have worked with a few venomoid's and they are no different to an untouched snake, they act the same at feeding time.


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## rinkels (Jun 17, 2011)

leecb0 said:


> yes its shown that snakes such as rattlesnakes follow the trail scent of there own venom to find the killed pey once its been bit and ran off.
> But thats in the wild, in CB it wouldnt really need it as we normally feed defrost and some not all snaks strike.
> 
> 
> ...


i agree with lee.i had a neo trop rattlesnake back in 2002 and i use to treat it as if it was hot,im not one for venomoids but regards that ,i would always treat the both on the same level.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

rinkels said:


> i agree with lee.i had a neo trop rattlesnake back in 2002 and i use to treat it as if it was hot,im not one for venomoids but regards that ,i would always treat the both on the same level.


You would not treat it exactly like a hot snake... In the back of your head, you have that scense of security knowing that if you make a mistake, you will not lose life or limb as a result... Thats just human nature...


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## Snakes Incorporated (Jun 27, 2006)

I have little if any regard for anyone keeping Venomoids. This is a very sensitive subject were feelings are quickly offended when the truth is brought to light regards this nonsense.


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## Elapidae (Jul 7, 2010)

Follow link for venemoid surgery pics

Venomoid snakes - photos of operation/s.


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## StephenP (Jan 30, 2011)

Elapidae said:


> Follow link for venemoid surgery pics
> 
> Venomoid snakes - photos of operation/s.


This bloke is a goose... not well received over here (or the rest of the world for that matter) by many.


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