# Sticky  RAW Feeding (BARF/RMB) for newbies



## labmad

Ok guys, the following information I have provided for you all will hopefully give you all a brief insight into the world of the BARF/RMB diets......or simply RAW feeding.......all the information is supplied with dogs in mind, but this diet is also suitable for cats.........ok.......here goes......

*What is BARF/RMB's?*
BARF stands for: Biologically Appropriate Raw Food, or as most people know it, Bones and Raw Food..............
RMB's stands for: Raw Meaty Bones......
These diets are not new, or any type of new feeding trend, in fact they have been aroung for hundreds/thousands of years if you think about evoloution, and they are basically about feeding cats and dogs the necessary diet to help them thrive through life and assist in reaching their genetic potential in terms of health, longevity, physical exercise and reproduction, so when the diet strays away from this evoloutionary way of feeding then the more health problems an individual animal is likely to develop. It is also worth a mention here that the genetic make-up of an animal also plays it's role here too.
In basic terms, convential grain based pet foods, which as we are all aware is a MASSIVE industry in itself, cause MANY health problems, no matter what research is put into them. They simply cannot stand upto RAW diets in terms of health enhancing attributes.

*Ingredients for BARF/RMB's*
Basically, it is what is readily available that you can get hold of around your location, but as the diet names suggest this diet consists of various parts to get the WHOLE benefits and this should be done over time and not all crammed into 1 or 2 meals.
All the following ingredients are suitable to be fed as part of this diet, unless of course you know your pet has an intolerance towards it, these include - Chicken wings, legs, carcasses, whole chickens, lamb ribs, lamb shanks, beef, pork, venison, fish, duck, pork, turkey, rabbit, veggies(blended or pureed), fruit (but there is on-going debate as to whether the fruit and veg side is necessary/helpful......but that's for another person to get stuck into), eggs, offal etc etc, there really is an abundance of items out there for everyone to be able to get hold of.

Feeding the above items, such as the meat products, it is best to do so as a whole and not to strip it down, for example, meat and bone should be eaten as a whole and together, yes give your dog a bone on it's own once or twice a week or so, but the main part of the diet should be eaten whole, this enables your dog to basically clean as it goes, such as when they eat rabbit, the bones help clean the teeth and gums, whereas the fur, tendons, ligaments etc will floss and basically polish the dogs internal system.......sorry could'nt really think of another way to put it.

Also thought I'd quickly metion Fasting. This is beneficial to your dogs as tend to regulate their own food intake, for example, even if there is a HUGE pile of food for your dog they will not necessarily eat it all, once they are full thry will come away from it. By fasting it allows the dogs digestive system to rest and recouperate and studies from wild dogs/wolves show that there are health benefits from doing do.

*Benefits from RAW feeding*

_Increased energy levels_ (especially good to see in the older/infirm dogs)
_Increased lean body mass_ (your dog will lose unwanted fat and gain increased muscle mass)
_MANY dental problems will disappear_ (including a nicer breath and tarter removal)
_Many skin problems disappear_ (just see how much healthier and younger your pals look and all your friends will be saying 'Ooohhh isn't your dogs coat nice and shiney......time to chuck away the medicated bath rinses)
_Healthy ears_ (BARF and RMB's strengthens the immune system which contains essentail fatty acids aswell as a host of other ingredients which in turn reduces inflammatory conditions)
_Anal Sac problems disappear_ (this diet will firm up the horrible sloppy smelly stools and you'd be surprised that when toilet time comes there usually is a reduction in the amount that is excreted, gone are the days of taking your dog to the vets to have their anal glands emptied.......YUK)

There are MANY other benefits but the above gives you a good starter too see some of the benefits when feeding this way.

*Fears of the RAW diets*

Personally, MANY people do not feed this way I beleive from 2 simple assumptions - 1.Fear 2.Ignorance(not meant in any bad way to anyone)

When you speak to people, especially when they ask what you feed you dog, the usual reply is......Oh no your not supposed to feed your dogs bones........or..........are'nt they always sick because things like raw chicken carry bacteria like Salmonella and Compalabacter..........so basically......cats and dogs are hunters and have fed this way for thousands of years.......their systems are designed to take such food and their whole being and make-up produces the necessary things needed to be able to cope with bacteria and digest this type of food to get the whole benefit from it.........how often do you see your cats catching and eating birds etc.......do they suddenly become ill...........or how often does your dog run into the garden to find a half eaten bird left over to quickly gobble the whole lot down........do they then suddenly become ill.........

Another fear people have are bones.......if ANYONE does not want to feed whole bones, there is no reason not to smash or grind them up.....this is particulary good for those GREEDY dogs who do not know what the word 'chew' means.........for all of our 6 labradors we dont grind anything up and feed things as they come

Old wives tales such as.....'my dog will become blood thirsty' or 'my dog will become aggressive' are COMPLETELY untrue.........aggression will only come from a dog that has food aggression from the outset.......anyone should be able to go up to their dogs and take ANY piece of food from them at any time without ANY problem, this is why it is so important as puppies, whatever the food maybe that they are taught you are the TOP-DOG of the household and they should respect this

Just to finish off, common sense must prevail to us humans when handlimg RAW meats and food etc, as we are not designed like dogs so we MUST wash anything we use well including ourselves in order to maintain a healthy immune system.....if you don't then yes, you may well become sick

Thanks for reading this guys, this is a very brief and basic guide to RAW feeding, which I have only scratched the surface as there is SO MUCH more to this including things like supplementation of vitamins and a whole host of other things........this in itself again is a debatable topic of discussion, which I won't enter now.

I hope you have found this a bit useful, like I say it is only brief and basic but below are a list of great reading books that any potential RAW feeders should see

Raw Meaty Bones (Lonsdale)
Work Wonders (Lonsdale)
The Barf Diet (Billinghurst)
Give Your Dog A Bone (Billinghurst)
Grow Your Pups With Bones (Billinghurst)
Food Pets Die For (Ann Martin)
Shock To The System, fact about animal vaccination and pet food ( Catherine O'Driscoll)

Thanks

Phil:2thumb:


----------



## Andy

Brilliant thread thanks it answered some questions for me :2thumb:


----------



## Rainmaker

I've been feeding raw for a lot of years now, my current dogs have never had a single drop of commercial food past their lips.

They eat everything from freshly killed wild-caught rabbits (skin, fur and all), hares, pigeons and game birds (feathers included), whole fish, squirrels, rats, piglets and pigs heads - you name it 

Never a day in the vets in all that time, and their teeth are pearly white. My oldest dog Zac is going on for 9 and the new vet who checked his teeth last year thought he was 2!

You can download Raw Meaty Bones: Promote Health and Work Wonders: Feed Raw Meaty Bones for free at Dr Tom Lonsdale's website. Tom's a great guy who I've known for some time now, it's certainly worth taking time to read his books.


----------



## Rainmaker

Just to add about the grinding of bones etc. This for me is a HUGE no-no. Half or more of the benefit of a raw diet is the chewing action, which helps dogs (and cats) avoid periodontal disease.

By the age of 3 years, up to 90% of dogs and cats fed commercial food or soft pappy foods (eg ground raw food, tinned dog food) will have periodontal disease at such a severe state they require surgical intervention. This rises to 100% by age 5. Even the pet food manufacturers' own figures show this, not that they like you to see them!

Dogs that "don't know how to chew" are simply eating meals too small for them. Bigger meals means they HAVE to chew. A RMB should always have enough meat on it so that the bone/s is/are invisible inside and big enough to require vigorous chewing and tearing. 

This gingival massage and natural tooth scraping is a huge life-saving benefit for dogs. There's a lot more about the whys and wherefores in Tom's books  It never fails to surprise me when people are shocked that dogs and cats should be eating whole carcases and raw meaty bones. Especially when they also happen to keep retiles to which they wouldn't DREAM of feeding mashed up mice/rats/crickets mushed into a can with 80% grain byproducts and artificial colours and preservatives known to be carcinogenic.

"Why would we feed snakes/lizards cack so-called food like that?" they ask? All the while poor Fido is getting just that and worse (a bit like folks who condemn killing animals and hunting (for food) at the same time as eating at McDonald's...)


----------



## labmad

Great points added Rainmaker, was trying to get some basic stuff down asap for any new people interested......we started out as strict BARFERS......but over time, after reading and chatting etc we are with Lonsdales views in the way we feed our dogs........they love it and look very healthy...........

As for grinding the bones up......yeah, I do agree with you but thought I would add it as there will be people out there that will not try dogs on bones.......and yes, agree the benefits of eating the rmb's not grounded speaks for itself.......maybe I typed it with the hope that people may ground up just to start with (is they were so against it) then become tiresome of it and go onto the whole rmb as a whole......the long way round I know if it gets people onto whole rmbs then I guess its a good thing 

Don't tend to get pheasants anymore.....so bloody expensive...... 

phil


----------



## Rainmaker

labmad said:


> Don't tend to get pheasants anymore.....so bloody expensive......
> 
> phil


Hi Phil,

Always nice to meet a fellow RMBer :2thumb::no1: As for pheasants... you PAY for them?! :whistling2::rotfl: Get out and catch your own, it's great fun. 

I have a Bull/Whippet/Greyhound lurcher and a couple of terriers, always good for a day out on the rabbits or a night on the lamp. We often end up with a pheasant, if not there's always shooting (roughshooting not shooting for sport). On permission I should add!!...


----------



## labmad

Hi mate - a chap I know shoots rabbits for me, gets an odd wood pigeon but does not tend to do the pheasants, he may be renewing license soon but so he can also do deer aswell......depends on the price ......he only charges me 1.50 for rabbits, compared to 4.50 from butchers 

phil



Rainmaker said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> Always nice to meet a fellow RMBer :2thumb::no1: As for pheasants... you PAY for them?! :whistling2::rotfl: Get out and catch your own, it's great fun.
> 
> I have a Bull/Whippet/Greyhound lurcher and a couple of terriers, always good for a day out on the rabbits or a night on the lamp. We often end up with a pheasant, if not there's always shooting (roughshooting not shooting for sport). On permission I should add!!...


----------



## Rainmaker

Bloomin' heck, I have rabbits coming out of my ears most weeks - my freezer is overflowing lol Nice work if you can get it - remind him what "mate" means  hehehe


----------



## Emmaj

Great read :2thumb: glad to see ya got this up and running I aint been in dogs for all that long well seriously anyways but i now have 2 siberian huskies 1 8 months and the other 8 1/2 weeks, a mallie x husky 14 months and a springer spaniel 8 months old 

I found out about the barf diet from a friend of mine who has been in huskies for a few years as i had endless problems with Nanook my 8 month old as a younger pup with tummy upsets couldnt get anything that would suit his sensitivity soooooo i tried the BARF diet and i now swear by it i never have a runny poop unless they have got hold of somat they shouldnt have lol or some eigit has given them rubbish without me noticing till too late lol 

when my lil pup came to me she was on beta puppy food ooooooh she is being weaned off that one lol she loves the barf her meaty bones and chicken wings, she aint had a full carcus yet but has bits broken off as im getting her ready for a full one lol and my added bonus is everyone of mine love veggies too just as much as the meat side of the diet lol 

have only come across 1 thing that my oldest wont eat unless its minced and thats liver the others wolf it down though :lol2:

The thing i have found about the BARF so many people are under the illusion that its a diet thats only ment for sled dogs or they are scared they are gonna poison thier dogs :lol2: it really aint gonna happen !


----------



## Meko

Rainmaker said:


> Bloomin' heck, I have rabbits coming out of my ears most weeks - my freezer is overflowing lol Nice work if you can get it - remind him what "mate" means  hehehe


 
if you've too many for the freezer i'm only down the road :whistling2:


----------



## Rainmaker

Meko said:


> if you've too many for the freezer i'm only down the road :whistling2:


LOL Cheek gets you everywhere :lol2: I'll give you a PM next time I get a load in mate : victory:


----------



## Meko

cheers mate.. finally managed to get another freezer, just need to pick it up now and i can get barfing.


----------



## Emmaj

Rainmaker said:


> LOL Cheek gets you everywhere :lol2: I'll give you a PM next time I get a load in mate : victory:


LOL its sure does i was cheeky with labmad lol as i pay a hell of alot more for my stuff than he does for his lol 

so who he gets his stuff from has another customer on their way :lol2:


----------



## Emmaj

Meko said:


> cheers mate.. finally managed to get another freezer, just need to pick it up now and i can get barfing.


nice one you managed to get a hold of another freezer then :2thumb:


----------



## Niccired

thank you for this thread!!! i was told to swap my rotty from the barf diet to a dry food one as the vet said it wasnt a good idea- im defo gonna put him back on it now!!!! : victory:


----------



## Andy

I just bought some tesco value lamb chops to try with my stafford pup. He loved it! Once he figured out he couldn't swallow it whole anyway! I plan on giving him the odd bit of fresh meat along with his normal food until i can find a freezer and a meat supplier. I was just wondering how much you would feed though.


----------



## sami

i want to try it for Jasper.. our Springer. 

we give him working dog food at the moment.. and he seems to be really reluctant to eat it sometimes.. we've tried a few different brands. 

he just can't have chicken.. we were told that by the people we got him from,.. and he's had it accidentally later on, and we now know why  

would be worth a go, if someone closer to us has those meat deliveries.. and we can get a chest freezer..

we have one of those 'normal' ones.. an under counter one.. which is generally full of frozen rats/rabbits etc so a big chest freezer would do them both 

sami


----------



## Dan

I have some questions:

Ok, it doesn't promote aggresiveness right? I'm struggling with this.
My dog frequently sits with caveys and rabbits without even thinking about eating them. Surely this would change?

The other one is the bones. I've always given what i call proper bones as a treat. Ie cow bones etc But was told that chicken bones (and similar size) were a big no no because they'd choke on them (bit like the queen and fish bones).
Is that wrong?

It's funny how misconceptions and propoganda are rife throughout different hobbies but until you get involved you never know about them.


----------



## Emmaj

I have to say im not surprised that he is reluctant to eat it as it gets boring eating the same thing everyday for every meal with the barf you rotate what they eat so somat different every meal



quixotic_axolotl said:


> i want to try it for Jasper.. our Springer.
> 
> we give him working dog food at the moment.. and he seems to be really reluctant to eat it sometimes.. we've tried a few different brands.
> 
> he just can't have chicken.. we were told that by the people we got him from,.. and he's had it accidentally later on, and we now know why
> 
> would be worth a go, if someone closer to us has those meat deliveries.. and we can get a chest freezer..
> 
> we have one of those 'normal' ones.. an under counter one.. which is generally full of frozen rats/rabbits etc so a big chest freezer would do them both
> 
> sami


----------



## Emmaj

The chicken bone thing is a complete myth dogs stomach acids are strong enough to break down the chicken bones you will not see chicken bones come out the other end.................The only bones you should never feed are cooked bones as the bones splinter differently and may cause damage but dogs stomachs were built to digest bones...........

No feeding them barf dosnt make them aggressive at all...............depending on your breed of dog eg i have siberian huskies and a mallie sibe cross and springer they are working bred dogs.............they will never get along 100% trusted with small animals 

And not being funny but i wouldnt trust any breed of dog 100% especially alone with any small animals or live stock



reticulatus said:


> I have some questions:
> 
> Ok, it doesn't promote aggresiveness right? I'm struggling with this.
> My dog frequently sits with caveys and rabbits without even thinking about eating them. Surely this would change?
> 
> The other one is the bones. I've always given what i call proper bones as a treat. Ie cow bones etc But was told that chicken bones (and similar size) were a big no no because they'd choke on them (bit like the queen and fish bones).
> Is that wrong?
> 
> It's funny how misconceptions and propoganda are rife throughout different hobbies but until you get involved you never know about them.


----------



## Dan

Emmaj said:


> The chicken bone thing is a complete myth dogs stomach acids are strong enough to break down the chicken bones you will not see chicken bones come out the other end.................The only bones you should never feed are cooked bones as the bones splinter differently and may cause damage but dogs stomachs were built to digest bones...........
> 
> No feeding them barf dosnt make them aggressive at all...............depending on your breed of dog eg i have siberian huskies and a mallie sibe cross and springer they are working bred dogs.............they will never get along 100% trusted with small animals
> 
> And not being funny but i wouldnt trust any breed of dog 100% especially alone with any small animals or live stock


 
The chicken thing has nothing to do with digestion. It's about actually getting the bone into the gut and not getting stuck on the way down 

I have a sammoyed. She has been brought up around all manner of animals and i trust her implicitly with any animal. Not that i would any other (no matter what breed), but i know my dog in this case.


----------



## bosshogg

i blooming well you have permission to take pheseants with dogs and rifle as i would be very annoyed if you came on my shoot taking my pheseasnt! 

BARF is an excellent way to feed dogs, i have 6 working dogs and there all adore BARF there get all the left overs from the butchers and all the bits are dont want one i have plucked and drawn my game.


----------



## Meko

Andy said:


> I plan on giving him the odd bit of fresh meat along with his normal food until i can find a freezer and a meat supplier.





quixotic_axolotl said:


> would be worth a go, if someone closer to us has those meat deliveries.. and we can get a chest freezer..


for the meat ask your local butcher or see if you've a poultry farm nearby. What pretty much happens is:
the butcher gets the meat on the carcass.
the butcher takes the meat off the carcass.
the butcher has to pay to have the carcass disposed of.

For them to give it away they save money and if they charge a few quid then they make a few quid.

Ask about on Freecycle for a freezer, i tried but with it being close to Christmas not many people were giving them away. I paid £36 for a 2x3x2 chest freezer on ebay.




andy said:


> I was just wondering how much you would feed though.


Dog trainer said to me, if they start putting weight on, feed them less


----------



## Rainmaker

Yes, we have lots and lots of permission lol Don't worry : victory: As for the chicken bones, it's already been said that they are completely safe RAW. However I do want to expand on the fact...

Someone mentioned feeding their Saffy lamb chops. While you're to be applauded for giving him/her some real food, just a friendly word of warning. When feeding raw food and raw meaty bones, the food items should be as whole (i.e. as near to a piece of animal) as possible. Lamb chops contain a small cutlet of bone inside a steak, and this does present (or should I say CAN present) a choking hazard. Not because it's bone, but because it's a piece so small the dog will likely just swallow it in one go.

All raw food should be in big pieces, how big depends on the size of the dog. So chicken quarters rather than wings for small dogs, whole chickens rather than quarters for larger dogs; breast of lamb and whole rib racks instead of cutlets; you get the idea. 

If the bone is whole inside the meat as it would have been present on the animal (or better yet just the whole animal!), the dog has to chew and work at getting food from the 'prey'. This chewing is what maintains oral health in predators such as dogs and cats, and indeed lack of it (eg in commercially fed animals) facilitates the development of periodontal disease, organ failure and early death.

Raw feeding is entirely safe, provides a 'complete' diet in the true meaning of the word (you don't need anything else) and it's not hard. It's not science either - who here measures, weighs and calculates their kid's food in case they die of nutritional imbalance? Yet people seem deathly afraid of not feeding dry food in case their dog dies a miserable death (pet food manufacturers have done a great job with propaganda over the years!). My dogs have had nothing but raw food and kitchen scraps all their lives, from weaning to adulthood - never a problem. They're lean, strong and fit as the proverbial butcher's. The oldest is nearly 9 btw. You find they grow slightly SLOWER than commercially fed animals (they're not getting "bulked up"), but this is beneficial for organs and joints (think hip dysplasia in commercially fed large breeds). Indeed the world record for longevity goes to a raw fed dog who was nearly 30!!!!

Raw fed dogs tend to live a long and healthy life without illness (mine have never been ill except for working injury). Then they just don't wake up one day - they 'fall off the perch'. That's in contrast to commercially fed dogs, who develop bad breath, tartar, low grade systemic organ failure (often not diagnosed as such), they become stiff and sore, they don't run around any more as they get "older" (who on earth considers 8 to 10 "old" for a dog?!), then they die a slow miserable death - effectively poisoned to death by commercial food and the resulting periodontal disease.

Reticulatus - no, it doesn't promote aggression in the "raw food makes dogs have bloodlust" sense mate. I do see where you're coming from (feed a dog a whole rabbit and suddenly Fluffy seems attractive!), and in that sense it MAY be a problem for some dogs. In that case feed without the skin/fur and don't associate meal times with the pet rabbit. Easy. 

My eldest hunting dog Zac grew up with my sister's rabbits and cavies. He'd be out at 4am with me, pulling rabbits off the lamp and working his heart out, go home for a big meal, and then curl up in front of the TV with my sister's free-running bunny between his legs LOL They do know the difference if they're brought up with them


----------



## Dan

Rainmaker said:


> Reticulatus - no, it doesn't promote aggression in the "raw food makes dogs have bloodlust" sense mate. I do see where you're coming from (feed a dog a whole rabbit and suddenly Fluffy seems attractive!), and in that sense it MAY be a problem for some dogs. In that case feed without the skin/fur and don't associate meal times with the pet rabbit. Easy.
> 
> My eldest hunting dog Zac grew up with my sister's rabbits and cavies. He'd be out at 4am with me, pulling rabbits off the lamp and working his heart out, go home for a big meal, and then curl up in front of the TV with my sister's free-running bunny between his legs LOL They do know the difference if they're brought up with them


Cool, that's what i was looking for :no1:


----------



## Meko

if feeding lamb can I put mint sauce on it to stop Rio's breath smelling like arse?


----------



## Rainmaker

Meko said:


> if feeding lamb can I put mint sauce on it to stop Rio's breath smelling like arse?


LOL To be honest mate, feed raw food and the breath will go anyway. Dogs should NEVER have bad breath. Bad breath is always (99.9%) a sign of developing periodontal disease due to incorrect feeding. 

If you move him over to large raw meaty bones (which will cost you next to nothing if you do it right), you'll find his teeth become clean again and his breath stops stinking. When fed commercial food (dry or wet), the stuff accumulates along the gum line and becomes rancid. Then bacteria gets to work and causes inflammation, smells (byproduct of their spoiling the food) and tooth/gum disease. Periodontal disease sets in and causes bad breath in itself. 

How old is the dog, and how bad are its teeth? Dental chews, dental kibble (a laughable oxymoron) and so on will NOT fix this. A raw fed dog will never have smelly breath (until they eat something they shouldn't :whistling2.

EDIT - "How bad are its teeth" means every single one of them should be "Holywood White", no matter how old the dog. Check them between, behind and especially the back teeth. Any sign of yellowing, tartar etc is bad.


----------



## Meko

he's about 10 years old, breath isn't that bad half the time but his teeth don't look too great and he won't sit still to let me brush them.


----------



## Rainmaker

Meko said:


> he's about 10 years old, breath isn't that bad half the time but his teeth don't look too great and he won't sit still to let me brush them.


:lol2: 

I'm not laughing at you mate, honestly. I do find it "funny" how pet food manufacturer's propaganda worms its way into hearts and minds though. Dogs don't need their teeth brushing, PERIOD. Even if you did it, it's totally ineffective (it sells lots of dental chews, kibbles and doggy toothpaste though £$£$£).

It may (MAY) be worth biting the bullet for a scale and polish at the vets. But first just try a month on whole RMBs etc, and see how they look. You may be lucky and his teeth come right just with good food. As Tom Lonsdale would say, "Carcases are nature's toothbrush for predators".

If he can fit it in his mouth all in one go, it's too small. Yes for dogs like Rotties that means BIG food, but it won't cost you any more if you do it right. Local hunters, abattoirs, poultry wholesalers, you name it - they will mostly all give away for free whole RMBs if you get an agreement going to collect regularly.

The crucial part is the chewing, ripping, tearing and nibbling needed for a dog to eat a LARGE (compared to him/her) food item. This stresses the teeth and gingiva, scrapes and polishes them, massages the gums and keeps the oral cavity in tip-top condition. Anything small enough to be bolted, crunched once or twice and swallowed, is useless.

My dogs will literally surround a carcass and tear it apart pack-style before consuming it. Their teeth look GREAT! :flrt: LOL Even on his own, he can eat whole pigs heads, piglets, rabbits, whole fish, rib racks (from cows, pigs, sheep etc)... all of these foods can be found free of charge if you look hard enough.

See how you get on - and please stop the commercial food. Save your wallet AND his life.


----------



## Meko

they'll both be on it soon enough, freezer tonight followed by meat soon.

whats got me confused now is they say chicken wings are good but if the food can't be small enough to eat in one, where do you get these enhanced super chickens from with huge wings instead of the farty little things i get from Asda?


----------



## Emmaj

Like rain maker has said the chicken bones are given with meat still on them like chicken wings are the full wing with meat and bone..........the carsus have still got a considerable amount of meat on too plus they are large which means the dog has to chew them in order to get them into the stomach...............i have not had a single problem with any bones my dogs have eaten and even my 9 wk old pup eats chicken wings and small carcus with no problems at all 



reticulatus said:


> The chicken thing has nothing to do with digestion. It's about actually getting the bone into the gut and not getting stuck on the way down
> 
> I have a sammoyed. She has been brought up around all manner of animals and i trust her implicitly with any animal. Not that i would any other (no matter what breed), but i know my dog in this case.


----------



## Emmaj

Non of my dogs have stinky breath either lol well other than when they have just eaten tripe urghh:lol2:


----------



## Rainmaker

LOL Emma 

Meko, chicken wings ARE decent food for SMALL dogs (think terrier pups). For anything bigger, you should be feeding chicken quarters, whole chickens etc. Certainly for a large dog (like your Rottie, or my Bull/Whippet/Greyhound lurcher) you're looking at whole chickens and up.

Wings alone are not a great diet even for pups, as they have a high bone:flesh ratio. They can form part of a varied diet however  But as I said, for larger dogs, just feed large meals. Turkey wings are ok


----------



## Emmaj

Though have to say my 2 sibe boys manage well with chicken wings they love them lol 

Mine have a very varied diet with chicken wings, carcus, ox liver, different fishes, veggies, meaty bones, tripe , minced liver, minced beef, and soon to introduce rabbit too and fish heads


----------



## Meko

think i might get some mince on the way home and some chicken portions till i manage to get the freebie sorted.

they can have mince and chicken and i'll have beans on toast..


----------



## Emmaj

LOL i know how u feel mine eat better than me too:lol2:


----------



## Rainmaker

Just a friendly bit of advice, skip the mince. There are two halves to decent tucka for dogs. Content and consistency. With mince, the CONTENT is OK (it's raw mince) but the CONSISTENCY is bad. 

Mince is pappy, soft and wet. It will accumulate along the gumline just like commercial food. Stick to chicken portions (whole)  

Tescos, Asda etc do chicken leg quarters for £1.30 for four (thereabouts). Morrisons also do whole lamb breasts for 70p up. Great food.


----------



## Emmaj

I tend to use mince and minced liver for treats every so often not something i feed daily or weekly just let them have that as a treat really lol and their other treats are frozen carrots :lol2:


----------



## Andy

Can someone post up what they feed over the course of a week? I have been googling and can find examples of what to feed but not really how much and quantities etc.: victory:


----------



## Emmaj

my menu for them changes from week to week but this is one of them 
day1
my boys breakfast med/large dogs 
2 chicken carcus 

girls small dogs at moment 
1 small chicken carcus each
they all get a raw meaty bone each too 



dinner/tea time 
boys 
4 chicken wings 

girls 
meg 2 chicken wings 
puppy 1 chicken wing 

day 2

boys and girls get diced ox heart for breaki usually give boys a quarter each of the heart and then half the girls quarters and give them the boys 
meaty bone each


dinner/ tea 

boys and girls get liver big dog has his minced as he wont eat it other wise lol 

day 3

chicken wings for breaki as above 


dinner/ tea chicken carcus 


day 4 

sardines in sunflower oil and mashed veggies for breakie 


tuna in spring water or sunflower oil and mushed veggies for dinner/tea


day 5 

tripe for breakie 
meaty bone 



ox heart for dinner/tea 


thats the kinda thing i feed a week my dogs though puppy is still having the beata puppy food in between so she still has her 4 meals a day for now but im weaning her off that 

im adding hopefully rabbit and fish heads and some other things into the diet soon too things i aint been able to get hold of myself as of yet : victory:


----------



## Andy

wow thats alot of meat! I am going to have to find a freezer after xmas!: victory:


----------



## Emmaj

LOL yer i have 2 fridges and 2 freezers and both are pretty much taken over by dog food lol


----------



## Andy

Just given my pup another couple of chops he loves them! He has had £4 worth today I will have to find a cheaper butcher soon!


----------



## Emmaj

Best thing to do is ask around as many butchers are cheaper to buy from if you buy in bulk like the chicken carcus and the chicken wings : victory:


----------



## labmad

Hey guys......just caught up on all the reading/responses.......christmas shopping.......anyway........

Just on the bad breath bit..........we don't have a problem with it at all........BUT.........BURPING is another matter........hell fire that is when the pegs come out for the noses.......mine and our lasses that is


----------



## Andy

My puppy has been burping tonight its quite funny!:lol2: Going to get him some chicken quarters tommorow mught keep him quiet for a while.


----------



## Emmaj

LOL yeah they burp like humans :lol2:

Also the farting as well my oldest boy does it everytime someone walks past the yard..............its that loud that they look at me :blush:


----------



## Andy

yeah yeah any excuse i bet you always blame it on the dog!:Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Emmaj

Tell ya what i was gutted couldnt believe i couldnt have claimed it as one of my own :lol2: was definately one to be proud of haha


----------



## labmad

Niccired said:


> thank you for this thread!!! i was told to swap my rotty from the barf diet to a dry food one as the vet said it wasnt a good idea- im defo gonna put him back on it now!!!! : victory:


Just to add to this mate - and correct me if I'm wrong here please, but...when vets are in training at vet school I was quite surprised that in all the years od training they do to qualify, they only do approx 4hrs of training on diets and petfoods.........every vet surgery that I know of work with the pet food companies to promote and sell their products via the surgery's, gaining a cut of the profit and the vets put there own mark up on it, which ends up in their tills........so yes they will do there best to promote this and dismiss other ways of feeding.........and nearly all vets I have come across dismiss the RAW diets.....i think through a lack of knowledge about them........it was only a few months back I spoke to an orthapedic specialist about RAW feeding as he asked what we fed our dogs on........his jaw hit the deck big time when i told him, and his response was' have you not heard of capalobacter and salmonella'.......music to my ears :lol2:......we had the discussion, I offered to lend him a book or too, but I think his mind was made and no chuffin JCB was gonna budge him......aw well his loss.....maybe one day he will see his error of judgement, which I hope it's not too late by then :bash:

phil


----------



## Andy

I am at vets tommorow with my pup i will ask his opinion on this diet!


----------



## Emmaj

Ooooo phil have you got any books ? would be great if i could borrow some would love to read up and learn more about all this as most of what i know is what my friends told me about so would be nice to read for myself :flrt:


----------



## labmad

Mine make me us laugh......your watching a soppy moment on the telly, the tone is set, candles are on..........then out of no where.....ffffaaaarrrttttt.....best thing is they either jump up as if to say....WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT.....or they look round at their the dogs backside next to them as if they wanna blame someone else.....comical really :lol2:


Emmaj said:


> LOL yeah they burp like humans :lol2:
> 
> Also the farting as well my oldest boy does it everytime someone walks past the yard..............its that loud that they look at me :blush:


----------



## Emmaj

LOOOOOOL you will get wat all vets say OMG what are you doing like labmad said vets promote the food thats sponsering them which means if they sell it then they get a cut of the profit :lol2:

so you will get told off i did by my vet lol



Andy said:


> I am at vets tommorow with my pup i will ask his opinion on this diet!


----------



## Emmaj

labmad said:


> Mine make me us laugh......your watching a soppy moment on the telly, the tone is set, candles are on..........then out of no where.....ffffaaaarrrttttt.....best thing is they either jump up as if to say....WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT.....or they look round at their the dogs backside next to them as if they wanna blame someone else.....comical really :lol2:


 
LOL yer marni is a begger he will fart jump up look at me then walk off and leave me with the smell the git :lol2:


----------



## labmad

Andy said:


> I am at vets tommorow with my pup i will ask his opinion on this diet!


Go for it mate......give him sum stick....in a nice way......just make sure your armed with your facts and answers.......they still will disagree with you I bet......although there are some out there who are into raw...but must admit they are few and far between..........we used to see Megan Kearney (she is a homeoptahic vet and used to write for 'Your Dog' Magazine), and she is from New Zealand, which over there is is VERY common to feed raw, and in her opinion is the BEST way to feed.......also she added that in all her years of practicing she has never come across a problem with an animal and feeding this way.........the problems she has had with dogs is when they are fed COOKED bones, and they can cause SERIOUS damage.........sadly her parents were ill and she went back home, shame as she really was on the ball and a really nice lady


----------



## Meko

Andy said:


> My puppy has been burping tonight its quite funny!:lol2: Going to get him some chicken quarters tommorow mught keep him quiet for a while.


 
go to Asda at night. Just got 2 packets of chicken thighs, not Smart Price either, from Asda. £2.28 reduced to £1.49 reduced to 74p each with 2 days left on the best before date.
I might even annoy people in Asda on Christmas eve buying cheap meat.. lol

Rio had 3 of them and Wilo had a turkey leg, 99p!


i'm having pizza if anybody is interested.


----------



## bosshogg

Rainmaker said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> Always nice to meet a fellow RMBer :2thumb::no1: As for pheasants... you PAY for them?! :whistling2::rotfl: Get out and catch your own, it's great fun.
> 
> I have a Bull/Whippet/Greyhound lurcher and a couple of terriers, always good for a day out on the rabbits or a night on the lamp. We often end up with a pheasant, if not there's always shooting (roughshooting not shooting for sport). On permission I should add!!...


forgot to say Taking pheseant with rifles is against the law! if people want game get yourself in the beating line good for you and the dog.
Clare


----------



## labmad

bosshogg said:


> forgot to say Taking pheseant with rifles is against the law! if people want game get yourself in the beating line good for you and the dog.
> Clare


Only time I got pheasants were from the butcher/farm shops etc.....but they are too expensive now anyway.........my rabbits are shot from a chap who, when called by the land owners, goes and clears as best he can with the gun, which he has a license for........all my stuff that i get has come from legal sources.......so we are all happy as pigs in s**t :lol2:.............if your ever passing my way after a pheasant day out if you get them your more than welcome for a coffee as long as you fetch a boot full of pheasants :lol2:.......can't say fairer than that pal :whistling2:


----------



## Emmaj

LOL cheek gets you everywhere :lol2:

my dad used to get pheasants alot from a guy that used to do the beating thing 

hmmmm wonder if my lil springer would be any good at that lol


----------



## Rainmaker

Who mentioned rifles, Clare? LOL I didn't! .410 or 12g all the way  

Cheers,

Lee


----------



## Andy

My vet is that one off Zoo Vet At Large on the tv he is a bit of a luvvy methinks he will not approve of the BARF diet!


----------



## Rainmaker

Vets rarely do, Andy, unfortunately. Nasty, stinking, rotten bones? God, no, man - much too dangerous!... Have a nice bag of Science Diet instead, we sell it for only £99.99 for 2kg LOL What's that you say? Science Diet gave your dog periodontal disease, it has rotten teeth and this has resulted in arthritis and diabetes with pancreatic failure? We can fit you in for a scale and polish for £150 on Friday, and here... these drugs cost £10 a box and need to be taken for the rest of the animal's life.

Nuff said.


----------



## Andy

Spoke to vet about the BARF he wasn't entirely dismissive as he feeds one of his dogs on it himself! He was slightly concerned however about feeding it to a puppy, in his opinion i shouldnt go onto the full diet just yet as its not balanced and could cause growth problems if you dont know exactly what your doing. Sounds fair enough i suppose if you didnt know what your doing you could easily over/underfeed a puppy. He did agree that the ingredients in pet food are shocking too.


----------



## Emmaj

I dont feed my puppy full BARF she still has 2 small meals of kimble aday to make sure she is getting all the vitamins she needs so it works out she has her 4 small meals aday that should be fed to a pup


----------



## Rainmaker

More FUD I'm afraid. Fresh raw food (whole carcases and parts thereof - eg wings, quarters, rib racks, legs etc) is a complete diet, period. Wolves, foxes and jackals etc don't eat kibble til they grow up in the wild 

Fresh meaty bones and some offal, with a few occasional kitchen scraps, is a complete diet for a dog/cat. That's what they were designed to eat - nature fed dogs and cats (and so did man) for millennia before kibble was invented! 

All my dogs have been reared from weaning onwards on raw meaty bones and carcases, and I've never had a single problem... believe me they DO grow lol 

Ask the vet about the vitamin deficiencies which have caused thousands of deaths in pet cats and dogs due to manufacturers either getting it wrong (experimenting) or due to manufacturing "glitches". A huge many cats died before kibble makers realised they needed taurine for example - and they still don't have it right.

If anything it's the other way around... raw feeding is the complete balanced diet (no matter HOW you feed), and kibble is the danger factor. As I said before, who here measures their children's food, weighs it, checks the vitamin levels, the minerals, macronutrients, and ensures they get a "balanced" diet?

Answer = NOBODY. They just feed varied meals/foodstuffs, and kids turn out just fine. Ditto dogs. It's NOT science. Pet food manufacturers just love to have made it seem that way, so you're too scared not to buy your animal's feed from them instead of doing it the way folks have for thousands of years.

I can't MAKE you switch of course, but I can tell you that I've never ever had a problem, and I can put you in touch with literally THOUSANDS of other people who will be able to tell you the same thing. The dogs speak for themselves - and they're fed raw from weaning, all fit as fiddles, and live to be a ripe old age without the "usual" doggy diseases.

JMHO.


----------



## Emmaj

The main reason she is still fed some kibble is because thats what she was on when she came to me i plan to have her weaned off it completely soon but as i feed barf i didnt want to suppliment a puppy hence why i still give her a lil kibble everyday.........I am borrowing some books so i can read up on feeding without supplimenting so till i know she is getting all the supliments she needs then she will get a lil kibble everyday


----------



## xmashx

i agree with the hole raw and barf feeding lol. cos not only as said before there not ill after eating raw food and how many times do you see dogs or their close cousins wolfs sitting in the woods cooking they're meat lol. i tried telling my mum this but she just said 'you always think ur right'. 
xsachax


----------



## Emmaj

My sister is horrifed at the fact that i give mine raw..........she wont give her jack russell anything thats not cooked........i have told her time and time again but she has it in her head that she will poison her dog feeding her raw stuff lol


----------



## Meko

xmashx said:


> i tried telling my mum this but she just said 'you always think ur right'.
> xsachax


are you my long lost sister?


----------



## labmad

Andy said:


> Spoke to vet about the BARF he wasn't entirely dismissive as he feeds one of his dogs on it himself! He was slightly concerned however about feeding it to a puppy, in his opinion i shouldnt go onto the full diet just yet as its not balanced and could cause growth problems if you dont know exactly what your doing. Sounds fair enough i suppose if you didnt know what your doing you could easily over/underfeed a puppy. He did agree that the ingredients in pet food are shocking too.


Pups are fine with this diet........I would have thought that if your vets gone to the trouble to learn about it for one of his own dogs you have thought he would have read up on the entire subject on RAW feeding......having done this would have resulted in a different response from him to you.............we have 6 labs 4 of which have been on this diet from 8 weeks old 

PS - Rainmaker.......spot on mate about the science diet stuff :


----------



## Emmaj

Well thanx to Phil - Labmad i finally have some rabbits to try my lot on and some fish heads too hee hee thank you phil

I know they definately like the ribs lol i fell soft and gave them some :lol2: so they loved them 

I cant wait to see what they make of the rabbits and fish heads:lol2:


----------



## labmad

Emmaj said:


> Well thanx to Phil - Labmad i finally have some rabbits to try my lot on and some fish heads too hee hee thank you phil
> 
> I know they definately like the ribs lol i fell soft and gave them some :lol2: so they loved them
> 
> I cant wait to see what they make of the rabbits and fish heads:lol2:


Once they've got past the stage with seeing the rabbits as their favourite teddy they'll love em :lol2:


----------



## Emmaj

No teddy is safe from my dogs so i think they will probs just jump straight in with them lol i have a line of teddies they have killed on top of the empty viv behind the crate in the living room LOL:lol2:


----------



## Meko

question....

Rio's had a bit of a dodgy bum / tum today since i put him on raw. Should i persevere, give him tinned or not feed him today to clear his tum?


----------



## labmad

Meko said:


> question....
> 
> Rio's had a bit of a dodgy bum / tum today since i put him on raw. Should i persevere, give him tinned or not feed him today to clear his tum?


How you doing the switch over of food......also what do you mean with a dodgy bum/tum.......do you mean sickness/diahorea :blush:

phil


----------



## Meko

just done a straight switch to be honest so probably not the best way.

how does runny fudge sound? not being sick though


----------



## labmad

Meko said:


> just done a straight switch to be honest so probably not the best way.
> 
> how does runny fudge sound? not being sick though


Ooohhhh my favourite :flrt:..........don't worry, there maybe a small bout of slops......it's the body dealing with the change........once he is over it the sloppy days will be gone, less volume of poo, less MUCH less smelly too.......: victory:

phil


----------



## Ssthisto

How would you go about switching two cats (one six and one eight) to a raw diet? They've been fed on kibble all their lives thus far, and they don't seem interested enough in eating things like chicken wings if I offer them - unless I hold the slimy nasty things for 'em!


----------



## labmad

Ssthisto said:


> How would you go about switching two cats (one six and one eight) to a raw diet? They've been fed on kibble all their lives thus far, and they don't seem interested enough in eating things like chicken wings if I offer them - unless I hold the slimy nasty things for 'em!


When offering a chicken wing do you slice it open to expose the meat?......sometimes cats/dogs look at things like wings etc as if to say ' yeah, what the hell do you want me to do with that' :rotfl:.........


----------



## Tessa

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Andy*  
_Spoke to vet about the BARF he wasn't entirely dismissive as he feeds one of his dogs on it himself! He was slightly concerned however about feeding it to a puppy, in his opinion i shouldnt go onto the full diet just yet as its not balanced and could cause growth problems if you dont know exactly what your doing. Sounds fair enough i suppose if you didnt know what your doing you could easily over/underfeed a puppy. He did agree that the ingredients in pet food are shocking too._



My husky pups are only 7 weeks and they love there raw foods

Tessa

P.S great thread :notworthy:


----------



## labmad

GREAT stuff......it's the BEST way to feed in my opinion by FAR........

Just another point to add, which is a good thing, is that when pups are fed RAW ilke this, they don't have such a rapid growth rate, whereas with commercial feeding the pup is much more prone to the rapid growth spurts....RAW pups still grow in a sound and safe way as long as you feed the diet correctly, but at a steady rate and are more prone to keep the puppy look for that bit longer........this is particulary good for breeds that are prone to joint problems......as labradors can be sadly........as a pup has rapid growth and usually weight gain too this is a contributing factor to some of the joint problems out there......many other factors aswell, including genetics, but the spurts doo not help matters at all 

phil

PS - Glad you like the thread 



Tessa said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Andy*
> _Spoke to vet about the BARF he wasn't entirely dismissive as he feeds one of his dogs on it himself! He was slightly concerned however about feeding it to a puppy, in his opinion i shouldnt go onto the full diet just yet as its not balanced and could cause growth problems if you dont know exactly what your doing. Sounds fair enough i suppose if you didnt know what your doing you could easily over/underfeed a puppy. He did agree that the ingredients in pet food are shocking too._
> 
> 
> 
> My husky pups are only 7 weeks and they love there raw foods
> 
> Tessa
> 
> P.S great thread :notworthy:


----------



## Meko

quick question.

just picked up a shed load of meat for the terrorists and it's now in the freezer. I can't remember if i read, or not, that you can feed it to them straight out of the freezer instead of defrosting


----------



## labmad

People will have slightly different views on this.......personally we sometimes feed our labs food which is still part frozen.....but not completely frozen as some feed can take a bit to thaw........we have fed things such as rabbit which was frozen with no ill effect but don't make a habit of doing so \;0

phil



Meko said:


> quick question.
> 
> just picked up a shed load of meat for the terrorists and it's now in the freezer. I can't remember if i read, or not, that you can feed it to them straight out of the freezer instead of defrosting


----------



## Meko

Cheers Phil. I did put some in a tub in the fridge for tomorrow so i can just use that and keep food in the fridge for the next day.


----------



## labmad

Yeah, we usually grab several bags of goodies out the freezer at the same time, then feed over several days so we usually have food at the ready.....



Meko said:


> Cheers Phil. I did put some in a tub in the fridge for tomorrow so i can just use that and keep food in the fridge for the next day.


----------



## Tessa

I always defrost my dogs food 

Tessa


----------



## Esarosa

completely off topic but tessa that dog in your avatar is stunning!


----------



## Emmaj

Katiexx said:


> completely off topic but tessa that dog in your avatar is stunning!


All of Tessa's dogs are stunning :no1: if i am correct and my eyes aint deciveing me i would say thats Mia lol


----------



## Tessa

thanks Katie  and Emma your right as always :notworthy: it is indeed Mia

Tessa


----------



## Emmaj

yay i was right wahoooo: victory::lol2:


----------



## Tessa

OMG:crazy: Emma if your head gets any bigger you will not be albe to get out the house :lol2:

Tessa


----------



## Emmaj

:lol2: might not be a bad thing for me haha means i can stay be the fire :lol2:


----------



## Tessa

Emmaj said:


> :lol2: might not be a bad thing for me haha means i can stay be the fire :lol2:


but wont you burn your bun if you BE the fire :lol2::lol2:

Tessa


----------



## Emmaj

LOL nah thats Meggys job with her lil yellow singe patch hee hee

tut @ us being naughty and spamming the thread 

we dints mean to honest sowwie sir we is :flrt:


----------



## Rainmaker

We feed items which are still frozen sometimes, it's not a problem. Tom Lonsdale compares it to ice cream lol 

Mostly we feed freshly killed and/or FT as I personally believe that is best for oral health (fleshy, chewy food). But frozen meals are OK too, the dogs still 'wolf' it down (pardon the pun ).


----------



## Meko

well after putting Wilo back on it for a few days she slipped back into being naughty and pooed in the hall. Out came the dust pan and brush and swept it up just like a few pebbles!

i might go on it myself.


----------



## Rainmaker

Meko said:


> well after putting Wilo back on it for a few days she slipped back into being naughty and pooed in the hall. Out came the dust pan and brush and swept it up just like a few pebbles!
> 
> i might go on it myself.


Feeding an appropriate diet certainly helps the waste management issue. It's not so much that they poo less on raw, as they poo far too much on commercial food. Garbage in, garbage out... :lol2:


----------



## Emmaj

Rainmaker said:


> Feeding an appropriate diet certainly helps the waste management issue. It's not so much that they poo less on raw, as they poo far too much on commercial food. Garbage in, garbage out... :lol2:


Its alot easier to clean though fed on raw lol 

I use a dustpan an brush too for my lot sooooo much cheaper than poo bags 

of course i take poo bags out when walking but dont need them for the yard no more lol


----------



## Meko

i don't need poo bags when i walk them now. i just flick it up and volley it across the street.


----------



## labmad

Meko said:


> i don't need poo bags when i walk them now. i just flick it up and volley it across the street.


:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:.....don't forget to have the other half head it back to you :rotfl::rotfl:


----------



## Emmaj

LOL have to say its a good weapon when in a poo bag have hit my self a few times on the leg forgetting i have hold of the bag swinging it lol


----------



## Pimperella

If anyone wants any Meaty bones, Beef rack of ribs, huge chucks, Breast of lamb, please feel free to contact em. I can provide it for free aslong as you can collect.
I have 16 boxes going spare so please come help yourself. 2 day offer only Monday Tuesday due to it being fresh meat and it will always all be gone by wednesday morning for sure as if got any left I use freecycle and then it's gone in an hour. BUt you guys are my people so come and get it. Just text me anytime. I get it pretty regular so can provide on weekly or monthly basis.


----------



## Emmaj

Ooooo if Phil is coming to get some from you i will have to be nice to him and see if he can grab me some too lol:lol2:


----------



## labmad

Emmaj said:


> Ooooo if Phil is coming to get some from you i will have to be nice to him and see if he can grab me some too lol:lol2:


Will always get some for ya matey......not gettin any this time round.....no room in the freezers :lol2:


----------



## Pimperella

Always welcome! I am more than happy if I know how many to sort out a huge load if people are near each other. Sharing the meaty goodness lol

Sat for hours last night sawing the huge 2 foot racks of ribs into sizable pieces still just more easy to manage for peoples freezers! These beef shoulder bones tho, lol they are mooosive! Mine lie on them licking and scrapping away lol


I still have 9 boxes available if anyone wants any! It is fantatsic stuff the beef, loads of meat on them, really serious meaty bones. 
When I say sawn doen, still no way a lion could choke on them but sometimes when the bits are 3 foot long and a foot and a half across lol 
Great for a pack of puppies tho, loads of room for all to get round it lol


----------



## labmad

Hey Laura.......hope your not moving miles away matey.....dogs would be well in tears


----------



## Pimperella

:lol2: 
Lucky I'm only moving across to Middleton then hehehe

No one want any before I offer it out on freecycle for this week? Got loads available and full of meat.


----------



## Pimperella

Hiya
I'm back. all moved now and living in Middleton.
I have my weekly delivery of meat. Beef and lamb available to all BARF diet feeders, new and old. all free!

All you need to do is phone me. let me know how much you want and come and collect it. Simple as that really and you get a reday supply for free.

Laura 07878 924914


----------



## Meko

Pimperella said:


> Hiya
> I'm back. all moved now and living in Middleton.
> I have my weekly delivery of meat. Beef and lamb available to all BARF diet feeders, new and old. all free!
> 
> All you need to do is phone me. let me know how much you want and come and collect it. Simple as that really and you get a reday supply for free.
> 
> Laura 07878 924914


 
if you're still online i've pretty much run out apart from all the big chunks.. can you reserve some for me. Can possibly collect tomorrow night / afternoon if my car is fixed (don't think my mate would be too impressed if i filled his Boxster with bones)


----------



## Evie

Hi this is my first post on here and I've fed raw for about 10 years but with all the positive remarks on here I just worry that people can jump into this without being aware that it isn't risk free. 

I have known a barf fed lab that suffered bloat, a barf fed dog that became impacted with bone and a barf puppy that got very sick with Compalabacter. 

I still think it's the best way to feed but you have to go in with your eyes open. I have had extremely long lived dogs on this diet - gsd 15years, gsd x collie 17 years and a mongrel that lived till he was 18 years - all barf fed for half of their lives or more.


----------



## labmad

Yes your right, whatever you feed there will always be some points of discussion both pro's and con's......I agree that this way is the BEST and ONLY way to feed but this is MY opinion, others make up their own minds, for anyone who decides to go this way it is up to them to also put the time and effort in to finding out and reading up in more detail on such a topic like this way of feeding.........for the dogs you mention to me, it rings that they did not research properly, as anyone who knows how to feed this diet properly will NOT get their dog impacted on bone 

There will ALWAYS be people for and against this diet, some through fear, some lack of understanding and some, I guess a lot, that if people convert to this diet in their tousands and more then will be panicing like mad that their profits will take a tumble in the crap that they produce.......

All I will say and compare to the likes of david Icke.......he was made out to be a looney over 10 years ago with the things he was coming out with about various stuff.....BUT.....look whats happening in todays world, what he said is and has happened on various scales and the authorities of power know he is right, so lets outcast him as a nutter to COVER the truth.....hhhhmmmm strange isn't it..........same in the pet food industry, lets play on peoples fears and actually hide the TRUTH as to how processed food is made and what is actually in it and carry on scaremongering about RAW feeding to keep people like robots and sheeps....at the end of the day it all boils down to MONEY and PROFITS and not the overall well-being of the animals (pet food companys perspective).........

Time will be the judge, as more and more people feed this way and find their animals are living much longer and active lifestyles then people may stop and think about it.......which I hope is not too late ;(



Evie said:


> Hi this is my first post on here and I've fed raw for about 10 years but with all the positive remarks on here I just worry that people can jump into this without being aware that it isn't risk free.
> 
> I have known a barf fed lab that suffered bloat, a barf fed dog that became impacted with bone and a barf puppy that got very sick with Compalabacter.
> 
> I still think it's the best way to feed but you have to go in with your eyes open. I have had extremely long lived dogs on this diet - gsd 15years, gsd x collie 17 years and a mongrel that lived till he was 18 years - all barf fed for half of their lives or more.


----------



## Evie

Tell me about it labmad, I work in a pet shop and the food reps can't even GIVE their stuff to me for free. They're always trying to get me to feed my dogs on their food - I just laugh. 
I do believe that there is a place for commercial dog food - apart from the bin :lol2

There are a lot of people in the world who are dog owners rather than dog lovers. Many can't be bothered to learn, source and prepare a proper diet for their dog - christ there's a fair few can't even feed their kids properly so not much chance for the animals - turkey twizzlers and blue pop anyone? Dog food might be a bit crappy but millions of dogs tick over on it. 

BTW the impacted dog owner was pretty experienced and did loads of reading and research - just one of those things - and he still feeds raw to his other dogs. 

I've occasionally given my dogs a cuttle fish bone to chew on - cleans teeth and a good source of calcium - not sure it could completely replace the bones in the diet though.


----------



## simmi85

dam evie got some issues with turkey twizzlers n blue pop is ace lol. ( sorry all to deviate from the topic)


----------



## Emmaj

Evie said:


> Tell me about it labmad, I work in a pet shop and the food reps can't even GIVE their stuff to me for free. They're always trying to get me to feed my dogs on their food - I just laugh.
> I do believe that there is a place for commercial dog food - apart from the bin :lol2
> 
> There are a lot of people in the world who are dog owners rather than dog lovers. Many can't be bothered to learn, source and prepare a proper diet for their dog - christ there's a fair few can't even feed their kids properly so not much chance for the animals - turkey twizzlers and blue pop anyone? Dog food might be a bit crappy but millions of dogs tick over on it.
> 
> BTW the impacted dog owner was pretty experienced and did loads of reading and research - just one of those things - and he still feeds raw to his other dogs.
> 
> I've occasionally given my dogs a cuttle fish bone to chew on - cleans teeth and a good source of calcium - not sure it could completely replace the bones in the diet though.


My rescue that i took in Marni was fed on maccy d's happy meals with his previous owners..............he is now on the Raw diet with my others and looking excellant for it :flrt:


----------



## labmad

I used to know someone with a lab and they gave it curry whenevery they had them.......morons :bash:

If there is money to be made from animal illnesses, MANY diet related, then pet food companys will do EVERYTHING possible to keep their profit margins soaring, whilst at the same time deluding the public and their perception on animal feeds..........

If commercial food was the BEST then tell me WHY do they keep coming back with the 'new and improved' versions......hhhhhmmmmm, also even some commercial food clearly states on it that it has proper meat etc in it or 'how nature intended' is the usual phrase they like to use......hhhmmmmm

The above also exsists in human circles too.......the world is MONEY MAD and totally disregard what REALLY matters.......I firmly beleive that there are already cures for killer illnesses out there but the 'puppeteers' that control the strings are more concerned with making money with the drug companies........VERY sad but VERY true unfortunately!



Evie said:


> Tell me about it labmad, I work in a pet shop and the food reps can't even GIVE their stuff to me for free. They're always trying to get me to feed my dogs on their food - I just laugh.
> I do believe that there is a place for commercial dog food - apart from the bin :lol2
> 
> There are a lot of people in the world who are dog owners rather than dog lovers. Many can't be bothered to learn, source and prepare a proper diet for their dog - christ there's a fair few can't even feed their kids properly so not much chance for the animals - turkey twizzlers and blue pop anyone? Dog food might be a bit crappy but millions of dogs tick over on it.
> 
> BTW the impacted dog owner was pretty experienced and did loads of reading and research - just one of those things - and he still feeds raw to his other dogs.
> 
> I've occasionally given my dogs a cuttle fish bone to chew on - cleans teeth and a good source of calcium - not sure it could completely replace the bones in the diet though.


----------



## Meko

Rio has had a few curries and kebabs in his time at mine, more often than not he's stolen them or tipped the bin over and licked the curry tray clean. although he does have sense and left the tomato


----------



## Athravan

Does anyone know of a supplier of meat for this diet in South Wales? I am seriously considering shifting my GSD and border collie to it if I can get hold of the meat.


----------



## labmad

Athravan said:


> Does anyone know of a supplier of meat for this diet in South Wales? I am seriously considering shifting my GSD and border collie to it if I can get hold of the meat.


Do you have any of the following in your area - poultry places, where they prepare chicken etc prior it going to be sold on to supermarkets etc, fish manufacturer, again somewhere where they gut, scale and generally prepare fish for fishmongers/supermarkets etc, abbotoirs, a good pace to get fresh, offal, green tripe etc etc depending on what they slaughter, can you get to know any farmers etc who shoot or have people who shoot rabbits for them to clear a field, MUCH cheaper than buying from placs like farm shops etc


----------



## Pimperella

this week I have 30 crates of beef and breast of lamb available.

pm or phone


----------



## peaches

Great read, have been looking into this and it really does make sense.

I've an abbatoir down the road, chicken farm down the other, farmer friends etc etc seems ideal.

one question though (at the mo anyway lol) one one of the links to that Dr chappy, he lists whole rats and mice. Well I breed my own. Does anyone else offer them, how often would you give them (no I'm not just thinking a sole mousey diet lol)


----------



## labmad

peaches said:


> Great read, have been looking into this and it really does make sense.
> 
> I've an abbatoir down the road, chicken farm down the other, farmer friends etc etc seems ideal.
> 
> one question though (at the mo anyway lol) one one of the links to that Dr chappy, he lists whole rats and mice. Well I breed my own. Does anyone else offer them, how often would you give them (no I'm not just thinking a sole mousey diet lol)


What dog you feeding....ie size etc......


----------



## debbieVN

*warning*

as a veterinary nurse i see at least one dog in surgery a week that needs to have a bone removed as its stuck in its transit systems. 95% of these come from chicken. please dont feed chicken bones to your dog they splinter easily can can really cause damage. when feeding bones knucles are the best as they do not split. the bone should always be larger than the dogs mouth as this will ensure the dogs chews the bone which is good for its teeth and means the dog wont swallow large chunks which are more likely to become inpacted.


----------



## Emmaj

cooked chicken bones splinter............not raw ones 

Im sorry but i have to disagree on that one if your feed raw chicken bones to dogs you wont even see them come out the other end, dogs stomach acids are that strong that they break the chicken bones down

Yes there is a risk and those of us that feed this diet are fully aware of this 

But this diet has proven to be the best diet possible for my dogs especially my oldest boy who is displaysic i havnt had a single limp from him since being on this diet 

But the chicken bones you have to remove are more than likely cooked chicken bones not raw ones how we feed


----------



## Emmaj

Oh and just to add to that 

Kibble can be just as dangerous as bones can 

I know of a few people that have lost dogs to bloat due to feeding a kibble diet :whistling2:

so there are risks with any diet your gonna feed your dogs


----------



## debbieVN

when you remove them from the dog its not really possible to tell if they've been cooked or not. as they are reasonably small they are not chewed so get wolfed down and then are to big to be passed through


----------



## Emmaj

debbieVN said:


> when you remove them from the dog its not really possible to tell if they've been cooked or not. as they are reasonably small they are not chewed so get wolfed down and then are to big to be passed through


Non of mine have ever had a problem passing through anything my oldest boy has even passed a few socks he managed to pinch without me realising 

Mine all go to toilet like clock work i know my dogs routine very very well and so far i have had no problems with this diet at all more benefits actually 

But yes if bones are cooked they can be dangerous to dogs and cats but if fed raw then they are safer


----------



## debbieVN

ouch! i bet the socks wasnt very comfortable to pass out. we once took 6 pairs of socks out of one jack russel terrier x!! do you feed them fish as well, i find my scottie/westie cross has better skin and fur since added fish to his diet


----------



## Emmaj

yeah they get full salmon heads and tuna do my lot pampered poochies lol

nah he had no probs passin the sock he has a big ass LOL:lol2:


----------



## Evie

Not risk free but the benefits outweigh the risks imo. This diet is endorsed by many vets. Years ago I was advised to put one of my old dogs on a low protein prescription diet after repeated problems with bladder crystals. I opted for BARF instead and he never had a problem after that. GSD x lived until he was 17.5 years old. I have fed 8 dogs this way for around 10years and never had a problem myself. Its a good way to feed but needs to be researched and understood beforehand. How many dogs die prematurely of organ failure, cancer, have allergies/skin complaints. etc................. How many of these complaints are down to crappy dried food with all the nutrients cooked out of them? Foods containing dubious ingredients, pet food with labels designed to decieve the consumer. 
The people who advocate this diet have looked into the whole nutition thing. We have weighed up the pros and cons of commercial and barf and made an informed choice.


----------



## peaches

labmad said:


> What dog you feeding....ie size etc......


Lurcher = greyhound x deerhound x collie, 17 weeks atm about 29'' to shoulder.

Is this a diet to start slowly with or just get in there?


----------



## debbieVN

you should always introduce a new diet gradually, the dog will be more likely to accept it. also some dogs will get the runs if u change there diet to quick.


----------



## labmad

It's up to you whether you do a 'gradual' switch or a 'straight' switch, several years ago when I swapped my own dogs onto this way of feeding I did a straight switch, as mine are not fussy eaters at all and their 'stool' were real sloppy, smelly and the rest, so it was not an issue for me 

You know your own dogs and sure you'll decide which way your gonna go, but do whatever your happy with 

Not sure size of the rats etc that your getting......I've not fed mine these, so it may be a lil trial and error.....unless your gonna start measuring body weight and going that route........try 2 or 3 rats and just see how it goes etc .....depends what size you get also


----------



## peaches

Thanks for the reply. His stools are varied, some sloppy, some not.

We have since reading about this given him some raw, and he just loves it, so am going to have to find cheap suppliers I think. Will be great when he is working though.

The rats I just found interesting really as it's a food source I have here.


----------



## labmad

Many people think this way of feeding is expensive..........I get salmon fish heads at 25p each, rabbits £1 each, chicken carcusses £2.50 for a box of approx 100, green unwashed tripe 20p each......I could go on but as you see it's FAR from expensive........and a MUCH BETTER diet in my opinion


----------



## Meko

mine costs me the petrol to Pimps every couple of months. A lot cheaper than tins of food everyday.


----------



## labmad

You can't beat Pimps but I just don't have the time lately to take a trip over


----------



## Meko

think she might kick my arse tomorrow... i'm meant to be going over but also got the wood being delivered anytime between 11am and 3pm for the dogs new penthouse..


----------



## Emmaj

Meko said:


> think she might kick my arse tomorrow... i'm meant to be going over but also got the wood being delivered anytime between 11am and 3pm for the dogs new penthouse..


 
Text her at least if you let her know then saves her waiting on you turning up 

: victory:


----------



## Meko

i will collect it as i've pretty much run out.. just no idea what time.


----------



## peaches

No I didn't think it was an expensive way of feeding at all, I know places I can go...it's just actually getting round to sorting it atm. 

Anyway can't be more than the James wellbeloved large puppy food he's on :lol2:

I take it Pimps is an Oop North thing?:whistling2:


----------



## Emmaj

have to mention this on the cost..........

Im feeding 5 dogs they eat BARF costs me just over £20 a month to feed them 

if i was still feeding james wellbeloved i would be paying out £80-100 a month so there is a big difference in the cost


----------



## Meko

peaches said:


> I take it Pimps is an Oop North thing?:whistling2:


 
don't think she'll appreciate being called a thing :whistling2:


----------



## labmad

'Pimperella' is a member on here, who lets us all know when she has spare lamb ribs etc etc......which is FREE of charge......and laura is a real nice lady too.....

People should remember that she does us all a GREAT favour, as I feel on or 2 people seem to take her for granted a bit..........don't forget there are still good folk out there


----------



## Emmaj

Totally agree with you on that phil 

I have never spoken to laura but for her to do for people what she does (free food) she is an absolute saint in my eyes :flrt:


----------



## peaches

Meko said:


> don't think she'll appreciate being called a thing :whistling2:


 
:blush::blush:Oops, sorry.

Now that sounds fantastic for someone to do that, very lucky.

Get my arse in gear this week and will try and source some bits, will let you know how I get on.


----------



## diamondlil

Here's an advert for natural feeding! My 11 year old Ellie loves rabbit carcases and chicken thighs best. I changed her diet about 3 years ago and would never go back. My 'dogmeat' freezer broke down so I couldn't store enough supplies for the last couple of months. (I've got a bit of travelling to the butcher who fills it for a tenner), so I've had to supplement with a dry food and the return to sloppy poo has been horrible. Thank god Ellie's freezer is arriving today:2thumb:


----------



## labmad

sweet dog mate - glad your liking the 'better' diet......like you say once you know what it's all about there NO going back ........


----------



## Pimperella

peaches said:


> I take it Pimps is an Oop North thing?:whistling2:


Well I don't mind where you come from lol as long as you collect as I have no car.



Meko said:


> don't think she'll appreciate being called a thing :whistling2:


I don't know, Hubby was most likely thinkin that when I came home with Ruby the Welsh Springer on Thursday.



labmad said:


> 'Pimperella' is a member on here, who lets us all know when she has spare lamb ribs etc etc......which is FREE of charge......and laura is a real nice lady too.....
> 
> People should remember that she does us all a GREAT favour, as I feel on or 2 people seem to take her for granted a bit..........don't forget there are still good folk out there


Thank you hun. :blush:
Please remember tho if you need some just drop me a pm. I have so many people I supply meat I do get a bit Confused at times as to who is who or if someone asks me to email. lol Please ring me or pm. I'll see how I can help you xx



Emmaj said:


> Totally agree with you on that phil
> 
> I have never spoken to laura but for her to do for people what she does (free food) she is an absolute saint in my eyes :flrt:


Again :blush: Cheers, I try my best to keep peoples dogs or Ferrets Happy.




peaches said:


> :blush::blush:Oops, sorry.
> 
> Now that sounds fantastic for someone to do that, very lucky.
> 
> Get my arse in gear this week and will try and source some bits, will let you know how I get on.


Get on Freecycle and try and get hold of a chest freezer. When feeding barf they are a godsend. I desperatly need to get another one now lol


I get a delivery almost weekly or twice a week like this week. Only catch it that it has to be collected quickly as it is fresh. So sadly first come first served so it dosen't go off.
xxxxxx

A lovely bloke off the hunting forum came for some today and gave me 10 purse nets (for rabbiting for those who don't know lol) I was well chuffed.


----------



## Pimperella

Meko said:


> i will collect it as i've pretty much run out.. just no idea what time.


Well, you always let me know on MSN anyway sweetie. Meko is a Good un lol Comes for Meat, has a brew, we talk about dogs and stuff. But then he does have the same breed of dog as my 9 lol
xx


----------



## Meko

She had ravioli for breakfast.. I was a bit pissed last night and decided i was hungry, then decided i couldn't be bothered eating it or throwing it away and washing up so i left it on the side in the kitchen. 
Went down this morning and the bowl was right on the end of the unit and empty....


----------



## peaches

Pimperella said:


> Well I don't mind where you come from lol as long as you collect as I have no car.
> 
> Get on Freecycle and try and get hold of a chest freezer. When feeding barf they are a godsend. I desperatly need to get another one now lol


Sadly I'm miles away from you (Somerset) but thankyou for the offer.

I do have a chest freezer, which was always full with rodents but since I don't have as many snakes now, it's great for the dogs food.

I have managed to source a local butcher. And our dog has been on this for a couple of months now, and just loving it.

No going back at all:2thumb:


----------



## spagola

*Dr Tom Lonsdale's website.*



Rainmaker said:


> I've been feeding raw for a lot of years now, my current dogs have never had a single drop of commercial food past their lips.
> 
> They eat everything from freshly killed wild-caught rabbits (skin, fur and all), hares, pigeons and game birds (feathers included), whole fish, squirrels, rats, piglets and pigs heads - you name it
> 
> Never a day in the vets in all that time, and their teeth are pearly white. My oldest dog Zac is going on for 9 and the new vet who checked his teeth last year thought he was 2!
> 
> You can download Raw Meaty Bones: Promote Health and Work Wonders: Feed Raw Meaty Bones for free at Dr Tom Lonsdale's website. Tom's a great guy who I've known for some time now, it's certainly worth taking time to read his books.



Hi 
It seems that the website now charges for the ebooks.
Do you or any1 else have a copy i could get?
Thanks!!!


----------



## BADGERS MUM

labmad said:


> Do you have any of the following in your area - poultry places, where they prepare chicken etc prior it going to be sold on to supermarkets etc, fish manufacturer, again somewhere where they gut, scale and generally prepare fish for* fishmongers*/supermarkets etc, abbotoirs, a good pace to get fresh, offal, green tripe etc etc depending on what they slaughter, can you get to know any farmers etc who shoot or have people who shoot rabbits for them to clear a field, MUCH cheaper than buying from placs like farm shops etc


 
Ok i feed my 2 (a Lab and a Staff x Lab) a 100% hypo allergenic diet as the staff cross has skin issues,
i believe its down to the food and this new diet is working well but 

Id be interested in giving them a go on the BARF and i am a fishmonger 
but i only have locally caught fish so what do you suggest i could feed them??


----------



## Zoexxx

I'd like to try my jack russell bitch on this, she's a year old now, is it ok to start at this age ? What would be the best things to start her with ?


----------



## labmad

Zoexxx said:


> I'd like to try my jack russell bitch on this, she's a year old now, is it ok to start at this age ? What would be the best things to start her with ?


yes it is ok to start her now if you wish.........you can basically start them from pups, but need to feed appropriate sized pieces for the individual dog........also it the dog is MAD for food and does not chew it's food, use bigger pieces so it HAS to chew/break it up before swollowing it 

for a JR try either chicken carcusses/wings/small legs etc and see how you go ....obviously add other things for variety and you can see what your dog likes etc........if it is like ours it will eat ANYTHING


----------



## Pimperella

FREE MEATY BONES AVAILABLE EVERY TUESDAY NIGHT FOR COLLECTION FROM MIDDLETON MANCHESTER.

yes it's free but collection on night it is delivered only.

Contact Laura 07878 924914


----------



## labmad

Pimperella said:


> FREE MEATY BONES AVAILABLE EVERY TUESDAY NIGHT FOR COLLECTION FROM MIDDLETON MANCHESTER.
> 
> yes it's free but collection on night it is delivered only.
> 
> Contact Laura 07878 924914


Need to get me arse over again at some point if thats ok, not sure when, but will fetch some rabbits over for you if you wish


----------



## Pimperella

OOOOOOOOOO well, It's every Tuesday I get a delivery. So if you give me a ring on a Tuesday to amke sure I have a nice large amount for you make it worth coming over. And yes, would love some Rabbit! mmmmmm

Got 4 crates of last nights left that has to go. Really need hubby to get this garage put up so that I can get some more freezers. 

Tuesdays is the night that my 11 get to eat as much as they want lol


----------



## Meko

Hope Giles remembers!!


----------



## labmad

Pimperella said:


> OOOOOOOOOO well, It's every Tuesday I get a delivery. So if you give me a ring on a Tuesday to amke sure I have a nice large amount for you make it worth coming over. And yes, would love some Rabbit! mmmmmm
> 
> Got 4 crates of last nights left that has to go. Really need hubby to get this garage put up so that I can get some more freezers.
> 
> Tuesdays is the night that my 11 get to eat as much as they want lol


nice one laura, will see how many rabbits i have in the freezer for ya, think there are only 1/2 dozen at the mo until some more arrive, hope some omre will come my way before next tues as i am thinking of popping across to releive you of some goodies, will ring before coming mind


----------



## brittone05

Are there any dogs that should't be fed BARF/RMB? I mean can you give it tot hem from puppy age right through thier lives or should it wait until they get their adult teeth?

Is there a particular extra or beneficial food for certain breeds? 

Labmad/Pimp - could I possibly drop you a PM please


----------



## Meko

Quite a lot of breeders bring theirs up on the BARF diet straight away, as far as i know.
Although as i found out the other day you do need to be careful when feeding them bones. Rio had hidden one in the garden that he hadn't finished and Wils was eating it on Friday night. She managed to crunch a a couple of sharp prongs onto a bone about 4inches long and got it lodged down the side of her mouth and into her gum.. luckily it wasn't in that far, despite all the blood, and i managed to just pull it out and after a check up down the vets there was no harm done.


----------



## labmad

PM me anytime

phil



brittone05 said:


> Are there any dogs that should't be fed BARF/RMB? I mean can you give it tot hem from puppy age right through thier lives or should it wait until they get their adult teeth?
> 
> Is there a particular extra or beneficial food for certain breeds?
> 
> Labmad/Pimp - could I possibly drop you a PM please


----------



## labmad

Glad all is well pal......monitoring is key, especially for dogs recently introduced to BARF, RMB's etc, as when they get a taste of 'REAL' food they gett all excited like it's a competition to see who can eat the most the fastest.......a bit like me when I go into McDonalds :lol2:

I would not feed any other way.......for the dogs that is:Na_Na_Na_Na:



Meko said:


> Quite a lot of breeders bring theirs up on the BARF diet straight away, as far as i know.
> Although as i found out the other day you do need to be careful when feeding them bones. Rio had hidden one in the garden that he hadn't finished and Wils was eating it on Friday night. She managed to crunch a a couple of sharp prongs onto a bone about 4inches long and got it lodged down the side of her mouth and into her gum.. luckily it wasn't in that far, despite all the blood, and i managed to just pull it out and after a check up down the vets there was no harm done.


----------



## Meko

Rio's a little sod. He grabs his food and runs to 1 of 2 places in the garden. Either the kennel or behind the stuff to take to the tip and eats it there. 
I need to empty the garden and see exactly what he's got hidden.. definately need to clean the kennel as they've destroyed the bed in there


----------



## Meko

you've met my Wils haven't you? not 100% sure but i think Emma said you did when she was having a (short) holiday there.


----------



## labmad

Meko said:


> you've met my Wils haven't you? not 100% sure but i think Emma said you did when she was having a (short) holiday there.


certainly did.....lil cutie......the dog that is :whistling2:


----------



## Meko

haha little cutie but a big pain in the arse. Wakes me up at 4am in the morning but sleeps right through if she sleeps on the bed :bash:

so i'm going to build myself a bed with a section for those 2.


----------



## Pimperella

Don't forget. Tuesday night is Meat night!!!!

Let me know if you can def come down so i'm not left with loads.
xx
Laura 07878 924914

(Middleton, Manchester)


----------



## Meko

I've still half a freezer full babe.


----------



## Pimperella

Labmad? Do you want any meat?
Last week I had ordered extra for you and got a very late reply after the meat was here saying you couldn't get over.
You said that you would make it ths tuesday but again I have heard nothing from you.

I can't keep getting extra if your not going to be coming for it, I don't have the extra freezer space and it leaves me having to spend my time trying to get rid of fresh meat to others.

I do this for free, would be nice to at least be told before the meat delivery day so I can sort out for other people beforehand.
Thank you


----------



## labmad

My apologies - I assuemd when i see your add that you get the bones and people contact you to see if you have any left.........i did not realise that you order it for specific people, but due to the nature of my work things can and do cahnge last minute, literally, so by the time i have sorted things it is getting on time wise.....yeah sure if you were only 10 mins away then it aint an issue, but as you are further away i didnt think you 'd appreciate me coming over 10/11pm in the eve........so my apologies once again, so now i know you order it in for people i wont contact you unless I know I have my bases covered here should anything change so that I CAN come to collect

Cheers


----------



## Shell195

In the next couple of weeks Im buying a freezer for dog food so I will contact you if you dont mind we only live in Skelmersdale so not to far away. Have 12 dogs so could use some freebies. What could we get you in return?


----------



## Pimperella

labmad said:


> My apologies - I assuemd when i see your add that you get the bones and people contact you to see if you have any left.........i did not realise that you order it for specific people, but due to the nature of my work things can and do cahnge last minute, literally, so by the time i have sorted things it is getting on time wise.....yeah sure if you were only 10 mins away then it aint an issue, but as you are further away i didnt think you 'd appreciate me coming over 10/11pm in the eve........so my apologies once again, so now i know you order it in for people i wont contact you unless I know I have my bases covered here should anything change so that I CAN come to collect
> 
> Cheers


 
I only get meat on a Tuesday, and because you were coming far and wanted a large amount I asked him to bring more than normal to cover the amount worth it for you to come over. instead of just 2 or 3 spare crates spare for people.


Shell, all I ask is that meat is collected on the Tuesday I have it delivered. Thats it really. Anything people give me is totally up to them but I offer it for free as it feeds dogs lol


----------



## brittone05

Well I think it is top what you do Pimp  Not many people would go so out of thier way to show acts of kindness like that - big :no1: from me


----------



## labmad

I agree, i think ant decent person would appreciate it


----------



## Pimperella

Sorry everyone. But due to minority who have left me in the lurch with meat I have no freezer space for and I have had a complaint now. I don't have a car so if people don't turn up I have to wait til next day when hubby finishes work for him to take it to the skip in a wheel barrow.

Sadly I am now not going to be able to offer anyone free meaty bones. I am truely sorry but because of this I am no longer going to be able to get them myself.

Thank you and sorry.


----------



## gnipper

Its a pain in the arse sorting it out for others isn't it. I just put people in touch with suppliers now.
Did you not find your dogs struggled to pass stools with that much bone intake? I used to/can still get lamb ribs, necks etc for nothing but theres a bit too much bone for everyday use so I feed chicken and beef mince etc to vary the diet.


----------



## labmad

If your only feeding the lamb ribs and hardly anything else in the diet then expect your dog to be constipated.......too much bone is not good and may cause a blockage.........

The key is variety.......and hope people dont just feed the lamb bones or other bones just because they were free........feeding just one thing in the diet may lead to deficiencies elsewhere, so just keep plenty of variety on the go


----------



## roxyandboys

BARF question from a newbie.

Is there anywhere online where i can order meat and have this delivered?


----------



## labmad

roxyandboys said:


> BARF question from a newbie.
> 
> Is there anywhere online where i can order meat and have this delivered?


yes - think it is called 'landywoods'.......BUT it is expensive to be honest 

your better off trying your local abbotoir and butchers etc as it will be MUCH cheaper


----------



## JPReptiles

Are poultry necks safe to use?

John


----------



## Meko

roxyandboys said:


> BARF question from a newbie.
> 
> Is there anywhere online where i can order meat and have this delivered?


where do you live? there might be somewhere local to you where you can collect and possibly be cheaper to get a taxi there (than pay delivery) if you don't drive.


----------



## danabanana

great thread! :2thumb:

Someone else replied yep landywoods.co.uk you can order online, min order £40 also the AMP site (anglian Meat products) deliver but are a bit more expensive


----------



## danabanana

Also...

An earlier poster said that mince is not good texture-wise... while I agree it is still better than commercial tinned/dry foods and is good if anyone is scared about feeding whole bones...

Good for mixing pulped veg into as well!


----------



## labmad

Mephitis said:


> Are poultry necks safe to use?
> 
> John


if you can feed them as part of the main carcus it is better, as they will need to chew the food.......the thing to watch with the necks, as some are small, is that some dogs are greedy feckers, and swallow things whole, which you have to watch.......also the necks themselves dont really have all that much meat on, so if you can feed it still attatched to the food source itself that would be better


----------



## JPReptiles

labmad said:


> if you can feed them as part of the main carcus it is better, as they will need to chew the food.......the thing to watch with the necks, as some are small, is that some dogs are greedy feckers, and swallow things whole, which you have to watch.......also the necks themselves dont really have all that much meat on, so if you can feed it still attatched to the food source itself that would be better


That's great,thanks for the info.

John


----------



## fenwoman

labmad said:


> yes - think it is called 'landywoods'.......BUT it is expensive to be honest
> 
> your better off trying your local abbotoir and butchers etc as it will be MUCH cheaper


Hah! not the case where I live. 
hearts at my local butcher are £1 a lb, landywoods 50p
tripe at the butcher/abbatoir works out at 50p lb, landywoods is from 25p
chicken carcasses at the local abbatoir are 50p a lb, and only 25p at landywood. 
I would be most interested to hear where you buy chicken carcasses cheaper than 25p a lb as I would drive up and fill my trailer full and stuff a freezer full.
Add to that the free delivery with landywood, meaning you don't need to drive about collecting it, and the fact that you can order a selection of different things, which are always in stock.
With 16-18 dogs and 12 cats I like to buy a selection so they get something different daily, there is nowhere I can do this locally and would have to spend half a day driving about here and there and paying twice as much. 
I have been nothing less than 100% satisfied with landywoods since I strated using them 2 years ago after having problems getting the quality and selection I demand for my animals, from other sources.

For landywood prices, take a look at this. 
taken from 
http://www.landywoods.co.uk/price_list.html








CURRENTLY VIEWING RICE LIST​







​MEATS​Minced Tripe 454g
30p​Minced Meat Mix 454g
32p
Minced Washed Tripe (100% beef) 454g
34p​Minced Chicken(whole chickens Minced either coarse or fine inc bone) 454g
30p
Minced Puppy Tripe (100% beef) ideal puppies & small breeds 454g
34p​Chicken Wings 454g
45p
Beef Tripe Chunks 454g
34p​Chicken Backs/Carcasses 454g
25p
Minced Lamd Tripe
25p​Meat & Veg Mix 454g
42p

​Minced Tripe & Meat Mix 454g
30p​Chicken & Veg Mix 454g
42p
Minced Tripe & Lamb Mix 454g
30p​Lamb & Veg Mix 454g
42p
Minced Tripe & Chicken Mix(with bone) 454g
30p
​Chunked Breast of Lamb on the bone 454g
75p
Minced Ox Tripe and Organ meat 454g
30p​Fresh Marrow Bones shanks (approx 15 - 18)
£3.50
Minced Lamb
44p​Meaty Rib Bones (aprox 15)
£3.50
Hearts (Lamb or Ox) whole or chunked 454g 
50p​

Liver (chunked) 454g
35p​Turkey Necks 454g
52p
Economy Mince(lungs & Heart) 454g
25p​Turkey Wings 454g
52p
Best Minced meat 454g
42p​Minced Turkey with Bone 454g
36p
Minced Beef & Kidney 454g
42p​Kidneys (whole) 454g
38p
Filleted Poultry Chunks 454g
65p​


----------



## labmad

I pay £2.50 per box of carcusses from a poultry wholesaler, weight wise I aint sure, but i get approx 80 carcusses per box.......tripe wise i pay 20p per piece which is a full stomach, again to be honest i dont know the weight of it, but is DEF more than a pound.......this is from the local abbotoir, where i also get other offal from.......I get salmon fish heads from a fish wholesaler, but these are few and far between lately, i used to pay 10p per head but a while back they have risen in price to 20-25p per head........oh yeah my rabbits cost me £1 per rabbit, and thats for a full rabbit 

So for anyone who thinks it is an expensive way of feeding then think again 

How does the food from landywoods arrive......is it frozen, fresh etc etc .....and i assume they use the refrigerator type vans etc to deliver it in.......it would sure stink on a hot day oterwise i guess


----------



## fenwoman

labmad said:


> I pay £2.50 per box of carcusses from a poultry wholesaler, weight wise I aint sure, but i get approx 80 carcusses per box.......tripe wise i pay 20p per piece which is a full stomach, again to be honest i dont know the weight of it, but is DEF more than a pound.......this is from the local abbotoir, where i also get other offal from.......I get salmon fish heads from a fish wholesaler, but these are few and far between lately, i used to pay 10p per head but a while back they have risen in price to 20-25p per head........oh yeah my rabbits cost me £1 per rabbit, and thats for a full rabbit
> 
> So for anyone who thinks it is an expensive way of feeding then think again
> 
> How does the food from landywoods arrive......is it frozen, fresh etc etc .....and i assume they use the refrigerator type vans etc to deliver it in.......it would sure stink on a hot day oterwise i guess


 Crikey I can't find it anywhere near as cheap as that but probably because there are a lot of dog breeders and kennels in this area there is more demand so prices are higher?
It arrives frozen in a refrigerated van and even on the hottest days (when we get any) it is frozen solid. If it didn't arrive frozen and wholesome, there is no way I would be feeding it to my animals and I don't imagine they would get any repeat business if it arrived stinking.
I can buy a whole unminced cows stomach from my local abbatoir but a/ it's a pain as I don't have an industrial mincer and b/ it costs me a fiver to buy it.


----------



## Emmaj

Phil will you be making a food trip anytime soon ?


----------



## labmad

Emmaj said:


> Phil will you be making a food trip anytime soon ?


wont be for a few weeks now mate - i assumed you were sorted for getting your food supply these days, so dont think i am being rude by not asking if you wanted anything getting


----------



## labmad

To be honest I could do with finding a supplier of Lamb Shanks, as I give em my lot evey now and again, can get from tesco etc for 2.50 each, but am sure i will get cheaper......just need to track down an abbotoir near me.....the one i go to just do sheep and cows, and poss pigs.......but then again they aint gonna sort me out me thinks as they just sell the whole animal to butchers etc etc


----------



## basky

ive just bought a pack of bones from morrisons butchers. will these b ok for gsd 4 months old? also got salmon trimming, pig heart and spratts. will these all be ok. should i introduce things over a few days? she's currently on royal canin gsd junior.
thanks


----------



## peaches

I pick up the lamb bones from Morrisions too, I would expect they would be fine but wait for another reply, no where near as much experience as these guys.

I've bough salmon heads too but they were loaded with worms!! I binned them but is it ok to feed something like that????


----------



## labmad

basky said:


> ive just bought a pack of bones from morrisons butchers. will these b ok for gsd 4 months old? also got salmon trimming, pig heart and spratts. will these all be ok. should i introduce things over a few days? she's currently on royal canin gsd junior.
> thanks


just be careful the dog doesn't try and take a bone down whole.....I have seen some bones in morrisons which look great, but as some are quite small, the dog might try and take down too big a piece......thats if it's a greedy swine like all ours are :lol2:


----------



## labmad

peaches said:


> I pick up the lamb bones from Morrisions too, I would expect they would be fine but wait for another reply, no where near as much experience as these guys.
> 
> I've bough salmon heads too but they were loaded with worms!! I binned them but is it ok to feed something like that????


salmon heads are great......we get them for ours when we can, but they are all fresh, no worms, if you can source some fresh ones go for it


----------



## peaches

labmad said:


> salmon heads are great......we get them for ours when we can, but they are all fresh, no worms, if you can source some fresh ones go for it


Well they were fresh, from a supermarket at least. But just couldn't get over the amount of worms.

I didn't realise you could buy straight from an abbatoir, have one just down the road from me aswell, so will give them a ring and see what we could get.: victory:


----------



## fenwoman

peaches said:


> I pick up the lamb bones from Morrisions too, I would expect they would be fine but wait for another reply, no where near as much experience as these guys.
> 
> I've bough salmon heads too but they were loaded with worms!! I binned them but is it ok to feed something like that????


 Raw fish is a big no no. Not only because of the worms but they can make your dog ill. As long as the bones aren't chopped they should be ok but personally I would be looking at buying breast of lamb rather than plain bones. Why get bones from supermarkets when you would probably get them free from a proper butcher. Supermarket meat is way more expensive and generally poor quality imported stuff from places where animal welfare standards are much lower than ours is. Support your local butcher, he is the source of all things good for humans and dogs.
My lot get pigs heads and trotters to eat, ox tail and ox cheek, I get a whole big flour sack of bones every week for free. You won't find ox cheek and tail in the supermarket as you don't get the range of cuts and as much choice as you do from a proper butcher.


----------



## labmad

fenwoman said:


> Raw fish is a big no no. Not only because of the worms but they can make your dog ill.


Fish is fine, the only down side is when they 1st have it they 'MAY' be sick due to the high oil content, having said this they may not throw up at all.....as for the worms, just make sure you but FRESH, and if you do experience worms them i suggest you find an alternative supplier 

When i get my salmon heads, I buy approx 60 at a time, they dont last too long with 7 dogs, buyt in all the time they have had them i aint found a single worm at all


----------



## peaches

fenwoman said:


> Why get bones from supermarkets when you would probably get them free from a proper butcher. Supermarket meat is way more expensive and generally poor quality imported stuff from places where animal welfare standards are much lower than ours is. Support your local butcher, he is the source of all things good for humans and dogs.
> .


 
I do support local, always have done but if I'm there buying me washing powder and they have them, I pick them up, only about 20p for 3. So no biggy.


----------



## fenwoman

labmad said:


> Fish is fine, the only down side is when they 1st have it they 'MAY' be sick due to the high oil content, having said this they may not throw up at all.....as for the worms, just make sure you but FRESH, and if you do experience worms them i suggest you find an alternative supplier
> 
> When i get my salmon heads, I buy approx 60 at a time, they dont last too long with 7 dogs, buyt in all the time they have had them i aint found a single worm at all


Raw fish contains an enzyme that breaks down Vitamin B2, so feeding too much raw fish to your dog, can result in a vitamin deficiency


----------



## moonlight

This is a very interesting thread!
I feed my dog on dry food at the moment but was wondering could you mix the 2 diets say 5 days on dry 2 days on raw as I dont think I could afford to do the raw 7 days a week?


----------



## fenwoman

moonlight said:


> This is a very interesting thread!
> I feed my dog on dry food at the moment but was wondering could you mix the 2 diets say 5 days on dry 2 days on raw as I dont think I could afford to do the raw 7 days a week?


But feeding raw meat isn't that expensive if you source it properly. Supermarkets are out as they are too dear. I mean who pays for bones?? 20p is 20p and why pay that if you can get them free. So try your local butcher for bones, and the cuts nobody wants as they don't know how to cook them because supermarkets have weaned people on to prime cuts like steak. Ask for beef skirt, tongues, heart,'lights' (lungs),ox tail, see if they do a pet mince (most do).Ask around to see if anyone knows someone who goes lamping for rabbits or ferreting for them and ask to buy off them. One big rabbit costing say £1.50 at most, will do a medium to large dog for 2-3 days.
Because you are feeding mostly proper meat, they eat less that grain based kibble where they have to eat more to get the same level of nutrition.
Supplement the meat with wholegrain and wholemeal bread which you buy reduced at the end of the day in the supermarket or ask the baker if you can have stale loaves for the dog.
When I'm very broke, I buy petmince from the butcher at 35p a lb, I use a massive big saucepan and I put the pet mince, plus veggi trimmings, carrots, bread, cheapo rice and el cheapo pasta from ASDA which is pennies a packet. Then I boil the lot up. From only about 3 lbs of mince and a lot of water and other stuff I get what looks just like tinned dog food when it is allowed to cool . I leave it overnight and it sets hard with a jelly .
That will do 16 dogs for one meal.It's sort of what the hunt kennels used to do to feed the hounds.
It can be as cheap if not cheaper to feed your dog on raw food but only if you make the effort to source what you need. I know that landywood delivers up to your area but you would need to get yourself a secondhand chest freezer to store 2 weeks worth of meat.
I would try to perhaps feed meat every other day or just stick with kibble. Dry 5 days then 2 days of proper food may not do his digestion any good. It's a bit like you eating dry toast through the week, then pigging out on curry on the weekend, you'd never be off the loo.:lol2:


----------



## labmad

fenwoman said:


> Raw fish contains an enzyme that breaks down Vitamin B2, so feeding too much raw fish to your dog, can result in a vitamin deficiency


Yep quite right feeding TOO MUCH may cause a problem, so YES you CAN feed fish raw quite happliy to your pooches  .........think you saidin your last post feeding fish is a no no.....which isn't strickly true :whistling2:

It's like liver......feed too much and you may have a problem.......

SO - REMEMBER FOLKS........research and read up on a subject like this, it ain't rocket science and once you can find good food sources it IS cheaper (in my opinion) than several MAIN brand commercial puke they call dog food.....again just my opinion.......you can all draw your own conclusions


----------



## labmad

moonlight said:


> This is a very interesting thread!
> I feed my dog on dry food at the moment but was wondering could you mix the 2 diets say 5 days on dry 2 days on raw as I dont think I could afford to do the raw 7 days a week?


you'd be surprised how NOT expensive the RAW diets are to be honest.....dont know what your feeding now and how much you use, but i know for some of the main brands you dont get any change out of 40-50 quid for the big sacks of kibble crap 

As for mixing both, i wouldnt to be honest, your defeting the whole object really, best ting to do is get a book or 2 on RAW feeding, read into the whole concept, then make your own mind up what your gonna do, it really is easy once you get into it, and in MY opinion it is the ONLY way to feed


----------



## FoxyMumma

labmad said:


> you'd be surprised how NOT expensive the RAW diets are to be honest.....dont know what your feeding now and how much you use, but i know for some of the main brands you dont get any change out of 40-50 quid for the big sacks of kibble crap
> 
> As for mixing both, i wouldnt to be honest, your defeting the whole object really, *best ting to do is get a book or 2 on RAW feeding,* read into the whole concept, then make your own mind up what your gonna do, it really is easy once you get into it, and in MY opinion it is the ONLY way to feed


Can you recommend any good books on raw feeding please Labmad? I cant seem to find anything by googling :bash: as Im really interested in starting mine on raw but want to go about it the right way from the start
Cheers corenne. : victory:


----------



## labmad

Look somewhere like Amazon etc etc.......some books to get are 

Raw Meaty Bones by Tom Lonsdale
or the BARF books by Billinghurst .......these i think are GREAT and really get you well on the way in feeding this way......they also answer common fears which are felt by many, including myself before i fed this way........

i managed to get a FREE download of the book 'Works Wonders' by Billinghurst.....if i still have it on the laptop and can figure out how to send it i will galdly pass it on to people that want it


----------



## labmad

Anyone who wants the works wonders for on your PC if you drop me your e mail addy via a PM and i will send it via an attatchment

PS - you will need adobe reader on your computer


----------



## FoxyMumma

labmad said:


> Look somewhere like Amazon etc etc.......some books to get are
> 
> Raw Meaty Bones by Tom Lonsdale
> or the BARF books by Billinghurst .......these i think are GREAT and really get you well on the way in feeding this way......they also answer common fears which are felt by many, including myself before i fed this way........
> 
> i managed to get a FREE download of the book 'Works Wonders' by Billinghurst.....if i still have it on the laptop and can figure out how to send it i will galdly pass it on to people that want it


Most appreciated, thank you Labmad! :2thumb:


----------



## moonlight

Thank you for the info, I guessed I wouldnt be able to feed 5days and 2 so think I am gonna have a bit read about it and jump straight in. I have spoke to a couple of people at work and some understood it some were very reluctant and I got the question 'will it not make her vicious' lol


----------



## moonlight

ok my head is in bits now I have spent 2 hours on the net trying to find somewhere that does cheap meat
Could someone put a list up of what I could start feeding her on for 1 week and I am just gonna go to the local butchers.
She is a 8 month old staffordshire bull terrier.
Do I have to add vegtables to her diet too as I have read that just feeding meat can make her constipated.


----------



## FoxyMumma

moonlight said:


> ok my head is in bits now I have spent 2 hours on the net trying to find somewhere that does cheap meat
> Could someone put a list up of what I could start feeding her on for 1 week and I am just gonna go to the local butchers.
> She is a 8 month old staffordshire bull terrier.
> Do I have to add vegtables to her diet too as I have read that just feeding meat can make her constipated.


Theres a place called Landywoods that does meat Landywood Pet Foods : Price List

also if you ask labmad for a copy of work wonders to be sent to you its really interesting reading! tells you about what percentages of foods to feed, what foods are ok and how much to feed etc,
hope this helps 
Corenne.


----------



## FoxyMumma

Just a quick question, Can you feed frozen rabbits that are sold for reptile consumption?


----------



## peaches

Hmmm just rang the local abbatoir, they will sell whole carcasses but not offal, have to be registered something or other!

Ah well.


----------



## moonlight

I looked at landywoods but I they dont deliver this far up according to the website
I have requested a copy of 'wroks wonders'


----------



## Meko

have a look in your area for abbatoirs (sp). There could be one closer than you think.


----------



## moonlight

There was a great one a couple of miles down the road at Fullwell but they demolished it and built bloody flats on it!


----------



## labmad

moonlight said:


> ok my head is in bits now I have spent 2 hours on the net trying to find somewhere that does cheap meat
> Could someone put a list up of what I could start feeding her on for 1 week and I am just gonna go to the local butchers.
> She is a 8 month old staffordshire bull terrier.
> Do I have to add vegtables to her diet too as I have read that just feeding meat can make her constipated.


once you get the copy of the book, take a look and i think there may be some sample feeding routines for 1 week or a fortnight etc etc

There are many MYTHS out there about RAW feeding but NO it will NOT make any dog aggressive, blood thirsty......or whatever you want to call it........all our 7 are fed fresh rabbits regulary but they dont want to eat any of the pet rabbits they frequently see.......the worst they do is givem a wash which some actaully like 

Feeding too much BONE may cause constipation, but not too much meat, but remember not to feed too much meat that is OFF the bone, the idea is they eat the RMB's (Raw Meaty Bones) as part of the actual carcus, for example 1/2 or a full rabbit, chicken legs, wings etc etc, this way they get ALL the nutrients/goodness from the meat AND bones and keeps their teeth nice n clean.....no need for the Denta-Stix crap!


----------



## basky

well heres molly with her first bone 
is the trick to give different meat each day?


----------



## moonlight

I have found this site but my email isnt working does anyone know if it delevers up north?
The Dog Food Company - Products Page


----------



## Meko

Dundurn Foods

they deliever using TNT


----------



## moonlight

Well I am gonna go for it I got some lamb chump chops today and went to pets at home but the only prize choice lumps they had in were tripe so got some nuggets instead she enjoyed her tea but did eat it rather fast, going to make a list of what I need from the butchers tomorrow then when I get paid put an order in with daf foods. Wish me luck guys lol


----------



## FoxyMumma

moonlight said:


> Well I am gonna go for it I got some lamb chump chops today and went to pets at home but the only prize choice lumps they had in were tripe so got some nuggets instead she enjoyed her tea but did eat it rather fast, going to make a list of what I need from the butchers tomorrow then when I get paid put an order in with daf foods. Wish me luck guys lol


Good Luck!!! : victory:


----------



## FoxyMumma

I'm off to the butchers tomorrow, as new pup arrived today! going to start off right, wish me luck too! :lol2:


----------



## moonlight

good luck foxy


----------



## moonlight

well up to now Lula has been enjoying her new diet until tonight I fed her kidneys and she is not liking them one little bit, I even had to cut them up for her she has eaten a couple but the rest is still in the dish


----------



## labmad

moonlight said:


> well up to now Lula has been enjoying her new diet until tonight I fed her kidneys and she is not liking them one little bit, I even had to cut them up for her she has eaten a couple but the rest is still in the dish


mix with some veggies and see if that makes a difference


----------



## fenwoman

moonlight said:


> well up to now Lula has been enjoying her new diet until tonight I fed her kidneys and she is not liking them one little bit, I even had to cut them up for her she has eaten a couple but the rest is still in the dish


 Neither my cats, dogs or ferrets will touch kidneys.


----------



## fenwoman

basky said:


> well heres molly with her first bone
> is the trick to give different meat each day?


 No trick to it, just give them whatever you have, tripe, breast of lamb, whole rabbits skin and all.


----------



## moonlight

fenwoman said:


> Neither my cats, dogs or ferrets will touch kidneys.


Oh you should have seen the look of disgust on her face lol
The cats ate what she left during the night. 
Fenwoman what are your lot like woth liver cause thats whats for her tea tomorrow.
The poo thing I was suprised to find is true! She had one yesterday and I couldnt smell a thing


----------



## peaches

My dog aint keen on ox liver, actually lightly braised it first, then he ate it:blush::lol2:Ox and lamb heart he likes though.


----------



## fenwoman

moonlight said:


> Oh you should have seen the look of disgust on her face lol
> The cats ate what she left during the night.
> Fenwoman what are your lot like woth liver cause thats whats for her tea tomorrow.
> The poo thing I was suprised to find is true! She had one yesterday and I couldnt smell a thing


 Raw liver goes right through them all. Personally I won't feed it. If I did, I would cook it first. Probably just nuke it. However with so many other goodies to feed, I can't be bothered. Heart is great as it is pure muscle meat. Mind you don't just feed raw red meat and offal, they need other things too which is why I feed whole rabbits fur and all. They need roughage. Rice, pasta, grated carrots and cabbage all good. In fact when I get stock feed cabbages, Ursa usually grabs himself one and lays under the horse box chewing it.
Don't forget, unlike cats, dogs are not pure carnivores, they are omnivores a bit like us yooman beans, they eat meat but need other things too.


----------



## moonlight

I am doin chicken dinner tomorrow night for our tea should I give her a plate with veggies and stuff? What about mashed potato? and should I cook her veg first?


----------



## Meko

whenever i do a chicken dinner i cut the meat off the chicken first and through the carcass to the dogs then wonder how to cook the chicken.


----------



## fenwoman

moonlight said:


> I am doin chicken dinner tomorrow night for our tea should I give her a plate with veggies and stuff? What about mashed potato? and should I cook her veg first?


 I think you should have a look on the landywoods website as they tell you how to feed BARF and what to feed, then have a look on ebay for a book called 'give your dog a bone' by Ian Billinghurst. It might be easier all round than to post daily asking if this is ok or that. I think it would be much better to read all you can first before starting her on it as it's more than just a bit of raw offal and human food.
Think wild dog diet and if you don't know what wild dogs might eat, read the book 
Tripe is great. I think you mentioned that you looked at it in a shop but didn't buy it. As a basic diet, raw pet tripe with grated raw carrots and a plain wholemeal mixer plus a supplement like SA37 is, in theory all you might need to feed while you discover what else is suitable. Many years ago when I showed standard poodles I fed little more than tripe, wafcol wholemeal mixer and SA37 (powder) and my dogs had enormous coats and good bone. In fact my Laser (Bowerdales silver laser) measured 32" at the withers when he was 6 months old and stood taller than a lot of 12 months old dogs in puppy class at Blackpool champ show one year.


----------



## nittydavison

Hi, iv been reading all about your different experiences with feeding BARF and i just wanted to know if anyone could tell me the best place to get hold of this raw food, ie the rabbits, phesants, chicken etc u know what i mean. Would it be best to contact a farmer or something for the rabbits and as for the phesants, could i use road kill????? I know its probably a NOOOOOOOOO but i just had to ask.
I am aiming to start converting to BARF feeding this week as i have been told that its the best sort of food to feed. I have a 7 month old rottweiler x, a 6 month old Shepherd x and a 15 yr old spaniel. The rotty has just been diagnosed with having Hip dysplasia and i have been told that feeding a more natural diet will hopefully help with this.
I am not the richest person so funds are limited so any tips as to where to get the cheapest meats etc would be much appreciated.
THANKS


----------



## Meko

butchers, abbotoirs (sp), online or if you share where you live somebody might point you in the right direction.


----------



## fenwoman

nittydavison said:


> Hi, iv been reading all about your different experiences with feeding BARF and i just wanted to know if anyone could tell me the best place to get hold of this raw food, ie the rabbits, phesants, chicken etc u know what i mean. Would it be best to contact a farmer or something for the rabbits and as for the phesants, could i use road kill????? I know its probably a NOOOOOOOOO but i just had to ask.
> I am aiming to start converting to BARF feeding this week as i have been told that its the best sort of food to feed. I have a 7 month old rottweiler x, a 6 month old Shepherd x and a 15 yr old spaniel. The rotty has just been diagnosed with having Hip dysplasia and i have been told that feeding a more natural diet will hopefully help with this.
> I am not the richest person so funds are limited so any tips as to where to get the cheapest meats etc would be much appreciated.
> THANKS


 Firstly, dorry to hear about your Rotties HD. What were the parents hip scores?
No diet will help correct deformed joints I'm afraid so whomever told you that a better diet would help is talking out of a hole in their hat.
Proper excersize may help strengthen the muscles holding her thigh bone joint in the hip socket depending on how bad the displacement is, but ultimately only surgery is going to help and hopefully you have it insured so the costs will be covered ( a couple of thou' per joint I understand).
What the diet will do is help both young dogs grow strong bones and good digestions. You need to remember to feed the whole carcase which means bones, fur, head, the lot. If you feed innards too as I do, you will need to worm the dogs every 3 months as wild rabbits carry tapeworms.
Where to get stuff depends where you live. Where I get rabbits from may not apply in your area. Youi could start by checking produce auctions like Melton mowbray market, or ferreters or contact your local gun club and ask if anyone goes lamping. Yes roadkill is fine to feed but it must be fresh. If you don't know how to tell whether something is fresh then don't pick up roadkill. I do regularly and find it a useful way to add to their diets without it costing me anything. Then you can try poultry breeders and ask to buy their surplus cockerels. Feed whole, feathers and all. What dogs need is not neat tidy bits of clean muscle meat, but everything, cartilage, bone, fur or feathers etc.
I still think that Landywoods is a good place to buy tripe which comes minced and you can feed it with a plain terrier meal but if you have no way to store frozen mean then I think you'll find it hard to feed a BARF diet unless you go out every day and buy only enough meat for that day.
Don't forget things like veggies too. Whole raw carrots are a favourite of my lot. Do some research by googling for BARF diet and you'll come up with lots of good ideas, then just scout about to find supplies. The trouble today is that people are so used to going to the supermarket and everything is diplayed there for them, that they've forgotted how to source things.
If you use a butcher, ask him for bones, pigs heads, tripes,etc. And while you are there, buy your own meat from him and ask about cheaper cuts to make your money go further that buying expensive supermarket imported [email protected].
Your dogs and you will eat far better and for less if you start feeding proper meat, proper veg etc. I buy rabbits 50-6- at a time and shove them in one of the freezers. The dogs eat them and I eat them. When I eat one, I skin it, take the head and feet off and the dogs get those and I have the rest.Yummy.


----------



## nittydavison

Thanks for all the info, I am really enjoying feeding my dogs the raw stuff. I am desperate to try them on a whole rabbit or something whole just to see what they will do. I seriously cant find anywhere though where i can get hold of something whole. Any tips on where to buy, already killed, rabbits or pheasents etc.
Also i have read that someone said contact your local abattoir. Oh my god is that serious??? Do they seriously sell to members of the public??? I am one of these that is a chicken when it comes to ringing and finding out info, i know i know, im never going to find anything out unless i ring them but i just wanted to double check that this is a good idea before i make a fool out of myself and ring them. 

Cheers


----------



## fenwoman

nittydavison said:


> Thanks for all the info, I am really enjoying feeding my dogs the raw stuff. I am desperate to try them on a whole rabbit or something whole just to see what they will do. I seriously cant find anywhere though where i can get hold of something whole. Any tips on where to buy, already killed, rabbits or pheasents etc.
> Also i have read that someone said contact your local abattoir. Oh my god is that serious??? Do they seriously sell to members of the public??? I am one of these that is a chicken when it comes to ringing and finding out info, i know i know, im never going to find anything out unless i ring them but i just wanted to double check that this is a good idea before i make a fool out of myself and ring them.
> 
> Cheers


 Well if you don't ask, you'll never know and since you are in mildenhall get yourself over to Martin Eagle's weekly poultry auctions at Elvedon which is where you will get all the rabbits you need already dead with fur on etc.
Not being funny or anything but if you won't ask or try to find out yourself, why should anyone do it for you? What's the worst thing which can happen? The person says "no, we don't sell that sort of thing here but you could try such a place"?
I can't imagine what it must be to go through life afraid to get information because you are frightened to ask someone a question. Must be awful to live in perpetual fear :-(
You have my sympathy.


----------



## nittydavison

Ok thanx for that. I will try to find out what day that is on and go and have a look.


----------



## fenwoman

nittydavison said:


> Ok thanx for that. I will try to find out what day that is on and go and have a look.


 It's on Wednesdays. It's a poultry sale too so you might also pick up some cockerels to kill for the dog. If you can't kill them, as one of the old boys there who will do it for you.


----------



## nittydavison

fenwoman said:


> It's on Wednesdays. It's a poultry sale too so you might also pick up some cockerels to kill for the dog. If you can't kill them, as one of the old boys there who will do it for you.


Cheers for that, i went to elveden and it has moved to Holywell Row now. I did go and have a look, i was feeling brave, LOL, i didnt buy anything though. They didnt seem to have any already dead rabbits, just plenty of pet rabbits to buy in the auction. Me and my hubs will go there another week and get some chickens i think and even if i cant kill them it will be good to have the eggs, LOL!!

Thanx again for the tip and also thanks for giving me a bollocking about being too scared of everything cos it made me think so at least i went and had a look. Thanks again!!!!


----------



## nittydavison

Also, i picked up a freshly killed pheasant from the road and threw it to the dogs and they werent keen. So i skinned it and cut some bits of meat off it to mix in with their other meanty bones and they still wouldnt eat the pheasant so they obvioulsy prefer chicken and meaty bones, LOL


----------



## fenwoman

nittydavison said:


> Cheers for that, i went to elveden and it has moved to Holywell Row now. I did go and have a look, i was feeling brave, LOL, i didnt buy anything though. They didnt seem to have any already dead rabbits, just plenty of pet rabbits to buy in the auction. Me and my hubs will go there another week and get some chickens i think and even if i cant kill them it will be good to have the eggs, LOL!!
> 
> Thanx again for the tip and also thanks for giving me a bollocking about being too scared of everything cos it made me think so at least i went and had a look. Thanks again!!!!


 rollickings are my speciality as any here will tell you :blush:
glad you went to look though. Next time you go, just ask any of the old boys about the availability of 'game'. If they have none at the sale, the chances are they might know someone who ferrets or lamps. Don't buy shotgun killed rabbits as they are full of lead pellets. You need ferreted or .22 shot ones.

I guess asking people for stuff is a lot less scary than telling me you are too scared to ask :lol2:


----------



## nittydavison

Hey just a quick question, which has nothing to do with feeding but i may as well ask. Do you know much about VERY timmid dogs and how to get them out of themselves???


----------



## fenwoman

nittydavison said:


> Hey just a quick question, which has nothing to do with feeding but i may as well ask. Do you know much about VERY timmid dogs and how to get them out of themselves???


 what breed? what sex? how old? how long have you had it? Does it live with any other dogs? 
Dogs can be timid for any number of reasons and I would have to know a bit about the background before I could offer any advice.
If you wanted to PM me, I can give you my phone number and talk a few things through (I run a dog advice line). It's easier than asking a question here, then waiting for a reply, then typing another, then waiting again.


----------



## FoxyMumma

Ok I have tried but my two just dont seem interested in raw in the slightest the only think I havent tried is whole rabbits, they will only eat anything if its cooked!! What do I do! :blush:


----------



## fenwoman

FoxyMumma said:


> Ok I have tried but my two just dont seem interested in raw in the slightest the only think I havent tried is whole rabbits, they will only eat anything if its cooked!! What do I do! :blush:


 With all due respect but, excuse me....who is in charge here?
You put down suitable food, dogs turn noses up, you leave food down and offer not a morsel of anything else, dogs get hungry and eat food. Simple 
It'll be a long day coming when my dogs dictate to me what they eat.
I've had spoiled little rescue dogs in who refused to eat what was put down. One in particular took 5 days to decide that he was the one who had to give in as I obviously wouldn't.
No healthy animal will starve to death with a source of food available. Humans make their dogs fussy, they aren't born that way.
Be firm,'do a fenny' on them and they'll learn to eat what they get given.
Hmmmm I wonder if that can be used to scare recalcitrant kids and animals into behaving "you behave or I'll do a Fenny". :lol2:


----------



## FoxyMumma

fenwoman said:


> With all due respect but, excuse me....who is in charge here?
> You put down suitable food, dogs turn noses up, you leave food down and offer not a morsel of anything else, dogs get hungry and eat food. Simple
> It'll be a long day coming when my dogs dictate to me what they eat.
> I've had spoiled little rescue dogs in who refused to eat what was put down. One in particular took 5 days to decide that he was the one who had to give in as I obviously wouldn't.
> No healthy animal will starve to death with a source of food available. Humans make their dogs fussy, they aren't born that way.
> Be firm,'do a fenny' on them and they'll learn to eat what they get given.
> Hmmmm I wonder if that can be used to scare recalcitrant kids and animals into behaving "*you behave or I'll do a Fenny".* :lol2:


:rotfl: 

Well, my staffie (who has always been a fussy moo when it comes to food) has gone 3 days now with no food as she is refusing point blank to eat anything thats raw... if i seal it slightly on the outside she will nibble the outside and leave anything that hasnt cooked :whistling2:Im starting to think shes being too clever for her own good lol :devil: trouble is the pup wont eat it either, and its not like shes so stuck in her ways that she dont understand that its food! after all she will go into the back garden and eat snails!! Escargo(sp) anyone? 
Im not to keen on letting the pup go without food completely so have been sealing the meat on the outside which she will eat no probs, so question is do I continue searing the meat and slowly try and get it more and more raw? or just let the pair of them go hungry till they decide that it actually is food and that it tastes yummy!


----------



## Fuzzball

I had a dog that I tried to BARF convert and she ate nothing for 4 days, I fed her no treats and took her bones away too! I then got a tray of minced beef out to cook our dinner and she went potty over it, and ate the whole tray straight from the fridge so would highly recommend trying that.
Trouble is if they know you will feed them something else then they will play on it and make you feel guilty, my mums dogs do it to her and she cant for the life of her work it out!


----------



## fenwoman

FoxyMumma said:


> :rotfl:
> 
> Well, my staffie (who has always been a fussy moo when it comes to food) has gone 3 days now with no food as she is refusing point blank to eat anything thats raw... if i seal it slightly on the outside she will nibble the outside and leave anything that hasnt cooked :whistling2:Im starting to think shes being too clever for her own good lol :devil: trouble is the pup wont eat it either, and its not like shes so stuck in her ways that she dont understand that its food! after all she will go into the back garden and eat snails!! Escargo(sp) anyone?
> Im not to keen on letting the pup go without food completely so have been sealing the meat on the outside which she will eat no probs, so question is do I continue searing the meat and slowly try and get it more and more raw? or just let the pair of them go hungry till they decide that it actually is food and that it tastes yummy!


 So if I understand you, you know that your dogs will simply starve themselves to death if you don't feed them what they want to be fed?
What about the veggies, rice, pasta, kibble etc. Are they eating that? What meat exactly are you offering them? Are you giving whole rabbits with fur and bones etc as they should be getting or simply plain raw lumps of muscle meat?
Incidentally, it would take around 10 days for a dog to be in danger of starving if they ate not one thing. 3 days is nothing. It's a case of who is the one in charge, wither you, or the dogs, unless you are saying that yours are the only dogs in the world who would actually starve themselves to death? :lol2:
Either you can make the decisions, or just leave them as they are eating what they want to eat, and calling the shots.


----------



## FoxyMumma

fenwoman said:


> So if I understand you, you know that your dogs will simply starve themselves to death if you don't feed them what they want to be fed?
> What about the veggies, rice, pasta, kibble etc. Are they eating that? What meat exactly are you offering them? Are you giving whole rabbits with fur and bones etc as they should be getting or simply plain raw lumps of muscle meat?
> Incidentally, it would take around 10 days for a dog to be in danger of starving if they ate not one thing. 3 days is nothing. It's a case of who is the one in charge, wither you, or the dogs, unless you are saying that yours are the only dogs in the world who would actually starve themselves to death? :lol2:
> Either you can make the decisions, or just leave them as they are eating what they want to eat, and calling the shots.


Okay Okay, I get the point.... I AM BOSS!! grrr :devil: (or I should be anyway)

Thank you for the kick up the bum Fenwoman :notworthy:Im going to stick to my guns! If they dont eat it they'll go hungry till they do.

Ive been giving them a couple of whole carrots which the pup was been having a good knaw on Faith isnt all that interested but she likes apples, grapes, banana and various other fruits anyway, They have been offered pasta and rice which they have eaten, also some hard bread which they had some fun ripping up... and they will eat any meat i offer so long as the outside is slightly cooked, Ive not found anywhere to get any fresh kill whole rabbits from yet, been asking round for local ferriters and lampers but come up empty handed so far, my OH is planning to go do some lamping himself down my old yard where the owner has given us the permission to shoot on her land as they are overrun atm. Ive also offered them chicken wings, lamb shoulder, liver (which they will eat so long as its cooked completely)


----------



## fenwoman

FoxyMumma said:


> Okay Okay, I get the point.... I AM BOSS!! grrr :devil: (or I should be anyway)
> 
> Thank you for the kick up the bum Fenwoman :notworthy:Im going to stick to my guns! If they dont eat it they'll go hungry till they do.
> 
> Ive been giving them a couple of whole carrots which the pup was been having a good knaw on Faith isnt all that interested but she likes apples, grapes, banana and various other fruits anyway, They have been offered pasta and rice which they have eaten, also some hard bread which they had some fun ripping up... and they will eat any meat i offer so long as the outside is slightly cooked, Ive not found anywhere to get any fresh kill whole rabbits from yet, been asking round for local ferriters and lampers but come up empty handed so far, my OH is planning to go do some lamping himself down my old yard where the owner has given us the permission to shoot on her land as they are overrun atm. Ive also offered them chicken wings, lamb shoulder, liver (which they will eat so long as its cooked completely)


 Phew. Metaphorical kick up the bum was what I was doing. I did think afterwards "what if she is a little wilting lily who will now call me mean and rude and nasty"
My lot don't like liver unless it's cooked either but that's fine cos it gives them the squits in any case.
I also get meat, offal, tripe, and the like from Landywoods which, despite all the people who say they are dear, not nice etc etc, I have personally never had a problem with in 2 years and believe me, if any business I deal with gets it wrong, they have one chance, then get kicked into touch. So if I'm happy with them, they have met my high expectations.
Your butcher should be able to help with ox tail,pigs trotters, breast and neck of lamb (cheap)try also ox heart,'lights' (means lungs etc), beef skirt. But to my way of tinking, nothing beats a whle rabbits, skin , fur, head, ears,bones and all. They get muscle meat, calcium and fibre and roughage from the fur. Think wolf. They eat the lot, not pure clean muscle meat. 
Be tough, be firm, be alpha bitch and don't worry. They aren't going to starve if they are eating the bread, veg, pasta etc are they? You could always jus nuke the meat for no more than a minute to warm it. Many dogs don't like it straight out of the fridge. Unlike my wild things which eat frozen rabbit carcases and frozen day old chicks.
Yes, my dogs also get frozen chicks as fed to snakes etc.
Also try cutting the raw meat up into bite sized chunks initially as it may take them a little while to get used to using their teeth as they were designed to be used.
Here, lookit my sweet dainty liddle chihuahuas.


----------



## FoxyMumma

fenwoman said:


> Phew. Metaphorical kick up the bum was what I was doing. I did think afterwards "what if she is a little wilting lily who will now call me mean and rude and nasty"
> My lot don't like liver unless it's cooked either but that's fine cos it gives them the squits in any case.
> I also get meat, offal, tripe, and the like from Landywoods which, despite all the people who say they are dear, not nice etc etc, I have personally never had a problem with in 2 years and believe me, if any business I deal with gets it wrong, they have one chance, then get kicked into touch. So if I'm happy with them, they have met my high expectations.
> Your butcher should be able to help with ox tail,pigs trotters, breast and neck of lamb (cheap)try also ox heart,'lights' (means lungs etc), beef skirt. But to my way of tinking, nothing beats a whle rabbits, skin , fur, head, ears,bones and all. They get muscle meat, calcium and fibre and roughage from the fur. Think wolf. They eat the lot, not pure clean muscle meat.
> Be tough, be firm, be alpha bitch and don't worry. They aren't going to starve if they are eating the bread, veg, pasta etc are they? You could always jus nuke the meat for no more than a minute to warm it. Many dogs don't like it straight out of the fridge. Unlike my wild things which eat frozen rabbit carcases and frozen day old chicks.
> Yes, my dogs also get frozen chicks as fed to snakes etc.


Lol, im no shrinking violet but I do sometimes need a HUGE kick up the backside!! which im very thankful for btw! :2thumb:

Ive been in contact with landywoods to see if they deliver in my area which Ive found out they do so will be getting a huge chest freezer and filling it up!! It seems my pup will eat frozen rats :whistling2:little bugger ran off with me last rat the other night when I got it out the freezer for a snake lol I will try them with some chicks, as ive got a freezer full of the blooming things lol
My local butcher is a bit of a plank and charges the earth for his trotters, ox tail etc so Im going to try a little village butcher near me that we hope may be a bit more reasonable


----------



## fenwoman

FoxyMumma said:


> Lol, im no shrinking violet but I do sometimes need a HUGE kick up the backside!! which im very thankful for btw! :2thumb:
> 
> Ive been in contact with landywoods to see if they deliver in my area which Ive found out they do so will be getting a huge chest freezer and filling it up!! It seems my pup will eat frozen rats :whistling2:little bugger ran off with me last rat the other night when I got it out the freezer for a snake lol I will try them with some chicks, as ive got a freezer full of the blooming things lol
> My local butcher is a bit of a plank and charges the earth for his trotters, ox tail etc so Im going to try a little village butcher near me that we hope may be a bit more reasonable


 There ya go then.She's read about BARF meaining fur and all, so she helped herself lol.
Might be worth looking in your yellow pages for your nearest abbatoir too as a useful source of food, but with only 2 dogs (as opposed to my 18) you'll probably manage fine with a chest freezer, landywoods and whole rabbits etc.
It beats me how butchers can be silly about their pricing on ox tail and pigs trotters since most people don't buy them and wouldn't know what to do with them and they end up getting chucked out in any case.Depends if he buys his meat as carcases and cuts them himself or if they arrive all ready jointed in which case, he'll have to order tail or trotters in especially and perhaps pay more for them. An abbatoir would be more use there. I also get pigs ears from mine to roast in the oven as treats. I get them for pennies as opposed to the 65p each from the pet shop.
BARF feeding is interesting.
Ask relatives for amazon vouchers for Xmas so you can buy one of Ian Billinghurst's books. He is a vet who wrote 'Give your dog a bone' all about BARF feeding.


----------



## FoxyMumma

fenwoman said:


> There ya go then.She's read about BARF meaining fur and all, so she helped herself lol.
> Might be worth looking in your yellow pages for your nearest abbatoir too as a useful source of food, but with only 2 dogs (as opposed to my 18) you'll probably manage fine with a chest freezer, landywoods and whole rabbits etc.
> It beats me how butchers can be silly about their pricing on ox tail and pigs trotters since most people don't buy them and wouldn't know what to do with them and they end up getting chucked out in any case.Depends if he buys his meat as carcases and cuts them himself or if they arrive all ready jointed in which case, he'll have to order tail or trotters in especially and perhaps pay more for them. An abbatoir would be more use there. I also get pigs ears from mine to roast in the oven as treats. I get them for pennies as opposed to the 65p each from the pet shop.
> BARF feeding is interesting.
> Ask relatives for amazon vouchers for Xmas so you can buy one of Ian Billinghurst's books. He is a vet who wrote 'Give your dog a bone' all about BARF feeding.


Lol!, well Ive even managed to get two out of 3 of my cats over to barf too, but they took to it really well as they catch mice, rats, birds on a daily basis anyway, think they must have been telling me something :whistling2:lol. The house cat is being a little more fussier but she does eat little tidbits of raw so shes coming round to the idea.

When I spoke to the butcher he said 'well id rather sell it or throw it away I wont give you it for free or any cheaper' and was pretty snotty about it so I told him where he could put it :whistling2:Id rather buy them food elsewhere.

Ill have to go on amazon and have a look for that book, make interesting reading :2thumb:


----------



## labmad

Grapes are supposed to be a 'No No' if you beleive what you are told from the vets etc etc as they are supposed to be toxic - I aint vet qualified so aren't saying either way, just ask many people and read up and from your findings make up you own mind


----------



## bosshogg

Butchers have to pay to have bones and such taken away as there can not go into the normal bins, I used to get bin bags (5 or more) from one butcher sadly he died this year and when I went in after it re opened and asked for bones they gave me two tiny little things and said I have 8 labs that wouldn't feed a yorkie, and was told its all they could give me! 

So I have to find a new butcher :bash:


----------



## FoxyMumma

labmad said:


> Grapes are supposed to be a 'No No' if you beleive what you are told from the vets etc etc as they are supposed to be toxic - I aint vet qualified so aren't saying either way, just ask many people and read up and from your findings make up you own mind


are you serious!!?? Oh my god, Faith loves them!! id better read up on that as Id never heard anything bad about them, I know of course about chocolate etc but a grape? :whip:thanks for the heads up ill do some reasearch : victory:


----------



## fenwoman

bosshogg said:


> Butchers have to pay to have bones and such taken away as there can not go into the normal bins, I used to get bin bags (5 or more) from one butcher sadly he died this year and when I went in after it re opened and asked for bones they gave me two tiny little things and said I have 8 labs that wouldn't feed a yorkie, and was told its all they could give me!
> 
> So I have to find a new butcher :bash:


 Exactly, which is why it's useful to find an abattoir. Mine gives me great sacksful of bones, pigs tails, ears, trotters and all manner of lovely things. I usually get 2 big sacks full. One to feed right away and one for the freezer for later in the week. An abattoir willproduce more bones and waste than they can give away so you stand a better chance there. There is a small independant abattoir where I take my livestock and this is where I get all the bones from. The same family also own a butchers shop in town and if I ask for bones there, I get offered half a dozen and they want me to pay for them. So, abattoir is best.It might mean a bit of a drive to get them but if you get a chest freezer (essential for BARF feeding several dogs in any case), and get 2 or more sacks, shove them in the freezer and use as required.


----------



## fenwoman

FoxyMumma said:


> Lol!, well Ive even managed to get two out of 3 of my cats over to barf too, but they took to it really well as they catch mice, rats, birds on a daily basis anyway, think they must have been telling me something :whistling2:lol. The house cat is being a little more fussier but she does eat little tidbits of raw so shes coming round to the idea.
> 
> When I spoke to the butcher he said 'well id rather sell it or throw it away I wont give you it for free or any cheaper' and was pretty snotty about it so I told him where he could put it :whistling2:Id rather buy them food elsewhere.
> 
> Ill have to go on amazon and have a look for that book, make interesting reading :2thumb:


 Good old British shopkeepers eh? It's a wonder how they stay in business with the attitude "I'd rather throw it away than give it away". They don't deserve your custom with that attitude frankly and I would tell other people about him. It only needs one customer to tell a few other potential customers if a service is good or bad. The bad ones are no loss when they go out of business. I make a point of writing or emailing if I get good or bad service from any company as I feel that if it was my business, I'd want to know how my staff were doing and what customers thought of me. 
Incidentally, a quick google came up with this.
Local abattoirs - Buckinghamshire County Council


----------



## FoxyMumma

fenwoman said:


> Good old British shopkeepers eh? It's a wonder how they stay in business with the attitude "I'd rather throw it away than give it away". They don't deserve your custom with that attitude frankly and I would tell other people about him. It only needs one customer to tell a few other potential customers if a service is good or bad. The bad ones are no loss when they go out of business. I make a point of writing or emailing if I get good or bad service from any company as I feel that if it was my business, I'd want to know how my staff were doing and what customers thought of me.
> Incidentally, a quick google came up with this.
> Local abattoirs - Buckinghamshire County Council


Oh hes fast going down the pan of his own accord, Ive heard nothing but bad about him tbh, hes upset most of his customers, so hes already done the damage to his own business.
Ive found the closest abattoir to us it is 25 miles away so once ive got a freezer in place I can contact them and see what I can get  Just need to find someone who goes lamping of ferriting in my area now, or ill be sending the OH off to go lamping himself lol


----------



## nittydavison

Hi, me again. Is buying from Berriewood expensive????


----------



## Emmaj

bosshogg said:


> Butchers have to pay to have bones and such taken away as there can not go into the normal bins, I used to get bin bags (5 or more) from one butcher sadly he died this year and when I went in after it re opened and asked for bones they gave me two tiny little things and said I have 8 labs that wouldn't feed a yorkie, and was told its all they could give me!
> 
> So I have to find a new butcher :bash:


clare do you have a hallal meat shop near you ?? 

i have started to get all my carcus and bones for free from them, they dont like to pay to have them taken away :lol2:


----------



## fenwoman

Emmaj said:


> clare do you have a hallal meat shop near you ??
> 
> i have started to get all my carcus and bones for free from them, they dont like to pay to have them taken away :lol2:


 Don't support the vile cruelty of halal slaughter methods. Make the beggars pay.


----------



## Emmaj

fenwoman said:


> Don't support the vile cruelty of halal slaughter methods. Make the beggars pay.


 
im not a supporter but hey im not gonna turn down free fresh food for my dogs :no1:


----------



## labmad

Emmaj said:


> im not a supporter but hey im not gonna turn down free fresh food for my dogs :no1:


Just be careful where you get them from - the one in west vale got fined and taken to court approx 3-4 months ago for leaving rotting carcusses outside covered in flies amonst other things


----------



## Emmaj

They are fantastic one of the cleanest shops around inside and out 

all the stuff they give me is fresh that day hun i been on this morn and got 2 carrier bags full of carcus that he had just finished preparing


----------



## fenwoman

Emmaj said:


> im not a supporter but hey im not gonna turn down free fresh food for my dogs :no1:


 Well I guess my ethics keep me from being hypocritical. There is no way I will support the halal method of killing animals and offering them a way to make or save money by taking the bones from animals which have died in agony and terror would do that. If halal was the only way to get free bones, I would either find a different butcher even if it meant driving to one, or I would pay for bones, or they would do without. The whole point of principles is that you stick to them even if it means things are a little more difficult or inconvenient. I am against killing animals by cutting their throats while they are fully concious, ergo I do not eat indian take aways nor would I if they were offered free, nor would I get bones from a halal butcher however clean inside or out they were.
How about horse meat? You should be able to get a good supply of that cheap as English people don't eat it? Or kittens? Easily killed quickly and you can get them for free too? Since ethics, principles and animal welfare don't count as long as you can get stuff for free and without having to put yourself out to get it, it won't matter will it?
Not judging or having a go, but just curious as to exactly when any kind of morals or ethics would kick in when it comes to feeding your dogs.
My ethics are mine to live with of course, hence I produce my own meat because I can't be sure of how bought in stuff is produced. However I'm always a bit surprised that people who profess to be animal lovers, seem to have no concern for how animals are reared or killed.


----------



## Shell195

As you know Im a veggie even though my family arent. I do buy meat for them and cook it(organic free range the best I can do for a townie) I could never buy or let my family eat Halal meat.Ive even been know to go to Asda and stand near the Halal meat section telling people how its killed. Average people dont know about this ritual slaughter so they need to be informed.:devil:


----------



## Ssthisto

fenwoman said:


> I am against killing animals by cutting their throats while they are fully concious, ergo I do not eat indian take aways nor would I if they were offered free, nor would I get bones from a halal butcher however clean inside or out they were.


I agree with you on this, but then again, my issue with halal butchery is not so much the cutting of the throat while the animal is conscious but more that hygiene regulations require that the animal is not touching the floor and has to be hoisted off the ground while still conscious. Fear, in many ways, seems to be worse for animals than pain.



> How about horse meat? You should be able to get a good supply of that cheap as English people don't eat it?


Now, this is a curiosity for me and you don't have to answer if you don't want to, Fenny... but why is a horse different to a goat or a sheep or a cow or a pig? Why is it ok to kill and eat the latter (especially pigs, which are very intelligent animals) but not horses?

I haven't personally eaten the first two or fed them to my pets, but I don't have an ethical objection to it provided the animals were humanely slaughtered.


----------



## Meko

Shell195 said:


> As you know Im a veggie even though my family arent. I do buy meat for them and cook it(organic free range the best I can do for a townie) I could never buy or let my family eat Halal meat.Ive even been know to go to Asda and stand near the Halal meat section telling people how its killed. Average people dont know about this ritual slaughter so they need to be informed.:devil:


 
i've eaten it once as i worked with a Muslim lad and i used to do curry nights. So i didn't leave him out i went all Halal. He took me to buy it and to be honest, i'd buy it again. The chicken breasts were huge and tasted nice too..


----------



## fenwoman

Ssthisto said:


> I agree with you on this, but then again, my issue with halal butchery is not so much the cutting of the throat while the animal is conscious but more that hygiene regulations require that the animal is not touching the floor and has to be hoisted off the ground while still conscious. Fear, in many ways, seems to be worse for animals than pain.
> 
> 
> Now, this is a curiosity for me and you don't have to answer if you don't want to, Fenny... but why is a horse different to a goat or a sheep or a cow or a pig? Why is it ok to kill and eat the latter (especially pigs, which are very intelligent animals) but not horses?
> 
> I haven't personally eaten the first two or fed them to my pets, but I don't have an ethical objection to it provided the animals were humanely slaughtered.


 To my mind they aren't any different and I have no problems eating horse flesh as long as the welfare conditions etc were acceptable to my own set of ethics. Only the English seem to regard horses as something practically sacred and not to be eaten while the rest of Europe and the world has no problem with it. Nor do I. I asked the question knowing that a lot of people won't eat horse flesh, in order to start a debate as to why they find it acceptable to use halal bones, but might not feed horse bones etc.If I could find it to buy and was satisfied about the welfare issues, then I would buy horseflesh.


----------



## Emmaj

well tbh i aint thinking where the animal came from or how it was killed all im bothered about is the fact i no longer have to pay for my food and its on the end of my street its fresh an the dogs love it 

i dont think when im feeding my animals what it used to be or where it was killed other wise i wouldnt have animals cos i wouldnt be able to feed them 

i feed my snake pinks that have been killed in some way but i just look at is at food instead of looking into morals of what im feeding 


sorry but hey if i dont have to fork out £20 a week cos i can get it for free then im gonna do it


----------



## Myo

This mentions giving chicken on the bone which I was allways told never do. Chicken bones are very brittle and break into splinters which are easily choked on. Correct me if I'm wrong like.


----------



## FoxyMumma

Myo said:


> This mentions giving chicken on the bone which I was allways told never do. Chicken bones are very brittle and break into splinters which are easily choked on. Correct me if I'm wrong like.


That would be correct for COOKED chicken bones, RAW chicken bones are rubbery and dont splinter....


----------



## labmad

Myo said:


> This mentions giving chicken on the bone which I was allways told never do. Chicken bones are very brittle and break into splinters which are easily choked on. Correct me if I'm wrong like.


One if the many myths with RAW feeding 

www.rawfed.com maybe a useful resource for people 

www.rawlearning.com and another


----------



## fenwoman

Myo said:


> This mentions giving chicken on the bone which I was allways told never do. Chicken bones are very brittle and break into splinters which are easily choked on. Correct me if I'm wrong like.


Cooked bones do this but raw doesn't.
Picture this scene:
somewhere in the wild, a fox kills a pheasant and is about to tuck in to a tasty meal when all of a sudden....*POOF!!* from out of the hedge jumps a little fairy who shouts "stop!!" Mr Fox, wait, you can't eat that pheasant as it has bones in which will splinter and kill you, hang on a minute when I get my magic deboning tool and remove all the bones for you so that you can eat it safely".
Think about it. How do wild carnivores cope with bones given that they are built the same as domestic dogs.
I have fed raw whole cockerels, pheasants, rabbits etc to my dogs for the last 20 year and never once had a problem.
Might I ask who exactly, 'always' told you never to feed chicken carcases?
Cooked bones of any kind should never ever be given as they become soft and brittle. The dogs get to chew big lumps off which end up in the guts being compressed into a solid calcified mass which can cause a blockage. Raw bones are soft and pliable and can be digested.


----------



## fenwoman

Emmaj said:


> well tbh i aint thinking where the animal came from or how it was killed all im bothered about is the fact i no longer have to pay for my food and its on the end of my street its fresh an the dogs love it
> 
> i dont think when im feeding my animals what it used to be or where it was killed other wise i wouldnt have animals cos i wouldnt be able to feed them
> 
> i feed my snake pinks that have been killed in some way but i just look at is at food instead of looking into morals of what im feeding
> 
> 
> sorry but hey if i dont have to fork out £20 a week cos i can get it for free then im gonna do it


:-(
I understand that people use the cost argument for the fact that they buy battery eggs and chicken too. Why should it cost you £20 a week for bones from a different butcher?


----------



## Emmaj

fenwoman said:


> :-(
> I understand that people use the cost argument for the fact that they buy battery eggs and chicken too. Why should it cost you £20 a week for bones from a different butcher?


 
cos my butchers have to order the carcus in so costs me £5-6 a box i use 4 boxes a week 

i dont drive so cant go anywhere other than i am at the moment to get anything else free from else where


----------



## Emmaj

fenwoman said:


> :-(
> I understand that people use the cost argument for the fact that they buy battery eggs and chicken too. Why should it cost you £20 a week for bones from a different butcher?


 
Now thing is i wouldnt buy battery hen eggs only free range i know im odd :blush:


----------



## fenwoman

Emmaj said:


> cos my butchers have to order the carcus in so costs me £5-6 a box i use 4 boxes a week
> 
> i dont drive so cant go anywhere other than i am at the moment to get anything else free from else where


 Shame you aren't close to me as I could include you when I scuttle about finding my bargains and sharing what I find.


----------



## Emmaj

fenwoman said:


> Shame you aren't close to me as I could include you when I scuttle about finding my bargains and sharing what I find.


 
I know i really do live in the wrong place lol 

im coming to move in with you and bringin the rabble LOL


----------



## fenwoman

Emmaj said:


> I know i really do live in the wrong place lol
> 
> im coming to move in with you and bringin the rabble LOL


 Eek! I'd better start looking for a mobile home.


----------



## Shell195

You cant live with Fennie coz she is too glamorous:lol2: I imagined a hillbilly and shes not


----------



## Emmaj

Shell195 said:


> You cant live with Fennie coz she is too glamorous:lol2: I imagined a hillbilly and shes not


LOL i have to say when i saw her pic i was like OMG thats Pam not in a bad way in a nice way 

i was pleasantly surprised too :2thumb:


----------



## fenwoman

Several people have said that I looked like Hannah Hauxwell, Norah batty, Minnie Caudwell, a grey haired old cat lady and combinations of those.:lol2:
Deffo not glamourous in real life either cos the pics were taken in my scruffy old work clothes.
But thanks for being complimentary


----------



## Emmaj

Just was surprising cos everyone does it they paint a picture in their mind of what people look like and you was nothing like the one i had painted :lol2:


----------



## Myo

fenwoman said:


> Cooked bones do this but raw doesn't.
> Picture this scene:
> somewhere in the wild, a fox kills a pheasant and is about to tuck in to a tasty meal when all of a sudden....*POOF!!* from out of the hedge jumps a little fairy who shouts "stop!!" Mr Fox, wait, you can't eat that pheasant as it has bones in which will splinter and kill you, hang on a minute when I get my magic deboning tool and remove all the bones for you so that you can eat it safely".
> Think about it. How do wild carnivores cope with bones given that they are built the same as domestic dogs.
> I have fed raw whole cockerels, pheasants, rabbits etc to my dogs for the last 20 year and never once had a problem.
> Might I ask who exactly, 'always' told you never to feed chicken carcases?
> Cooked bones of any kind should never ever be given as they become soft and brittle. The dogs get to chew big lumps off which end up in the guts being compressed into a solid calcified mass which can cause a blockage. Raw bones are soft and pliable and can be digested.


 

Well, it was my parents with our dog, and I've witnessed first hand the dog choking on chicken bones that she recovered from the bin.


And if I gave my dog a whole animal of any kind I would have blood and guts all over my living room. Same as our garden when our old dog got our rabbit.

Though I have to say I do take to the idea of raw feeding on the whole, dogs have evolved to become omnivores. They even have some teeth that are more shaped towards eating veg/fibre. I think they would need a small amount of veg and something bisquity for fibre to go along with the meat.


----------



## Ssthisto

Myo said:


> Well, it was my parents with our dog, and I've witnessed first hand the dog choking on chicken bones that she recovered from the bin.


Cooked bones, undoubtedly... if they'd been food for the people first, that is.



> Though I have to say I do take to the idea of raw feeding on the whole, dogs have evolved to become omnivores. They even have some teeth that are more shaped towards eating veg/fibre. I think they would need a small amount of veg and something bisquity for fibre to go along with the meat.


Are you sure they're evolved to be omnivores? Those back teeth are designed for shearing meat off bone and cracking bones.


----------



## Emmaj

Myo said:


> Well, it was my parents with our dog, and I've witnessed first hand the dog choking on chicken bones that she recovered from the bin.
> 
> 
> And if I gave my dog a whole animal of any kind I would have blood and guts all over my living room. Same as our garden when our old dog got our rabbit.
> 
> Though I have to say I do take to the idea of raw feeding on the whole, dogs have evolved to become omnivores. They even have some teeth that are more shaped towards eating veg/fibre. I think they would need a small amount of veg and something bisquity for fibre to go along with the meat.


 
thats why i dont keep rabbits in my garden mine love rabbits lol

sorry ya talking twoddle 

i have 7 dogs all of which are on BARF an thrive on it 

apart from a mishap this morn with one bolting her food an ending up with bloat 

But as been said dogs are meat eaters put a bowl of kibble in front of my lot or a chicken carcus they will all dive for the carcus everytime 

Chicken bones are not dangerous to dogs unless fed cooked as when the bones are cooked they splinter and can cause damage 

Dogs are desgined with a strong enough stomach acid to break bones down so for those that feed alot of chicken carcus and such it will never been seen coming out the other end and it will have broken down in the stomach before that point


----------



## bosshogg

Myo said:


> dogs have evolved to become omnivores.


really dogs have evolved to become omnivores:lol2::lol2:
The Dog (canis Lupus Familiaris is a domesticated subspecies of the grey wolf! a mammal of the canidae family of the order carnivora. what means dogs are Carinovres

we add vegetables to domesticated dogs beacuse we can not feed our dogs fresh killed animals including the guts and stomach as in the wild this is how wolfs and such get the vitamins and monreals they cant from meat.


----------



## Myo

Emmaj said:


> thats why i dont keep rabbits in my garden mine love rabbits lol
> 
> sorry ya talking twoddle
> 
> i have 7 dogs all of which are on BARF an thrive on it
> 
> apart from a mishap this morn with one bolting her food an ending up with bloat
> 
> But as been said dogs are meat eaters put a bowl of kibble in front of my lot or a chicken carcus they will all dive for the carcus everytime
> 
> Chicken bones are not dangerous to dogs unless fed cooked as when the bones are cooked they splinter and can cause damage
> 
> Dogs are desgined with a strong enough stomach acid to break bones down so for those that feed alot of chicken carcus and such it will never been seen coming out the other end and it will have broken down in the stomach before that point


 
I just remember seeing something on telly that showed the difference in the shape of those back teeth in dogs compared to wolves and how it looked like the back teeth of dogs were more molar-like, they have been fed by us as omnivores for thousands of years. I've also seen a vet post in a thread simlilar to this who said that they do need some sort of bisquit in their diet.

Remember these aren't wolves that we've just taken in from the woods, these are dogs that have been bred by humans for thousands of years and fed an omnivorous diet every day for generations. I agree that fresh raw meat has got to be better than dog food, but I don't just feed my dog tinned dog food and nothing else. she gets mixer, dog bisquits, chews, bones etc. If I had the money I would swap the tinned food for fresh raw meat, however, I would still include the other stuff for a balanced diet.


----------



## peaches

Myo said:


> I've also seen a vet post in a thread simlilar to this who said that they do need some sort of bisquit in their diet.
> 
> ....... I would still include the other stuff for a balanced diet.


Two things to pick out of your thread there.

No way do they NEED biscuit at all in there diet.

Have you read up at all about BARF? it stands for Bones And Raw Food or Biologically Appropriate Raw Food.

Yes they do need a balanced diet but Clare has just explained why we add other raw foods into their diets, not many people have the option to offer whole animals.




bosshogg said:


> we add vegetables to domesticated dogs beacuse we can not feed our dogs fresh killed animals including the guts and stomach as in the wild this is how wolfs and such get the vitamins and monreals they cant from meat.


----------



## Myo

peaches said:


> Two things to pick out of your thread there.
> 
> No way do they NEED biscuit at all in there diet.
> 
> Have you read up at all about BARF? it stands for Bones And Raw Food or Biologically Appropriate Raw Food.
> 
> Yes they do need a balanced diet but Clare has just explained why we add other raw foods into their diets, not many people have the option to offer whole animals.


 
I've heard of BARF, not read a lot into it. As I've said I do think it's a good idea in principle. I just think that a bit of mixer and the odd chew and the odd bisquit should be included. 

I suppose if your feeding whole animals then yeah, it might have everything they need but as I've said I think it's crazy to give a dog a whole dead animal, unless you like cleaning gore.


----------



## peaches

Oh it aint that bad, feed them outside then :lol2:
Our dog does not get mixer, the only bikkies he gets is if someone else gives him them.....I just don't see the point in it really.

Veg, fruit, oil, eggs, bits of offal, live yoghurt and the bones and various meats - that's how we do the balanced diet.


----------



## Emmaj

Myo said:


> I just remember seeing something on telly that showed the difference in the shape of those back teeth in dogs compared to wolves and how it looked like the back teeth of dogs were more molar-like, they have been fed by us as omnivores for thousands of years. I've also seen a vet post in a thread simlilar to this who said that they do need some sort of bisquit in their diet.
> 
> Remember these aren't wolves that we've just taken in from the woods, these are dogs that have been bred by humans for thousands of years and fed an omnivorous diet every day for generations. I agree that fresh raw meat has got to be better than dog food, but I don't just feed my dog tinned dog food and nothing else. she gets mixer, dog bisquits, chews, bones etc. If I had the money I would swap the tinned food for fresh raw meat, however, I would still include the other stuff for a balanced diet.


 
i take you have never been bitten accidently by a dog or seen them rip a full rabbit to shreds properly then??........................cos if they had teeth like molars they wouldnt be able to do it and believe me they sure can....................dogs can do a hell of alot of damage with their teeth 


Also the diet i feed mine costs me nothing i get my BARF stuff for free from the shop on the road 

there are always ways of doing things cheaper if you look hard and careful enough for them


----------



## Emmaj

Myo said:


> I've heard of BARF, not read a lot into it. As I've said I do think it's a good idea in principle. I just think that a bit of mixer and the odd chew and the odd bisquit should be included.
> 
> I suppose if your feeding whole animals then yeah, it might have everything they need but as I've said I think it's crazy to give a dog a whole dead animal, unless you like cleaning gore.


 
yeah but there are people like us that WONT feed the odd biscuit, chew or mixer as we think its crap in a bag...............at least with the diet we feed we know what are animals are eating and that its fresh 

If you aint read up about something then dont put it down or make unactual facts about it being wrong...............


----------



## Ssthisto

Myo said:


> back teeth of dogs were more molar-like, they have been fed by us as omnivores for thousands of years.


Actually, dog "biscuits" and bread-based goods for dogs have really only been available for the last hundred years or so.

Which of these two links is a wolf skull?
Skull 1
Skull 2

One of them is a wolf. One of them is a dog.



> dogs that have been bred by humans for thousands of years and fed an omnivorous diet every day for generations.


Dogs have been bred by humans for thousands of years and fed on the foods humans simply couldn't eat - bones - and whatever they could catch for themselves. It's only since 1900 or so that dedicated "dog food" has ever been available... and the mixers etc only have to keep a dog alive for six months to be proven "nutritional".


----------



## fenwoman

Myo said:


> Well, it was my parents with our dog, and I've witnessed first hand the dog choking on chicken bones that she recovered from the bin.


Choking because it is trying to quickly scoff something it shouldn't have has nothing to do with the myth about bones being dangerous because of splinters. My dogs have choked when drinking water if they gulped quickly. Is water dangerous?




> And if I gave my dog a whole animal of any kind I would have blood and guts all over my living room.


 so why feed your dog in the living room? I mean really, surely that much is easy to work out?



> Same as our garden when our old dog got our rabbit.


shame on you for not making the rabbit safe.



> Though I have to say I do take to the idea of raw feeding on the whole, dogs have evolved to become omnivores.


They haven't 'evolved to become', they always were omnivorous.



> They even have some teeth that are more shaped towards eating veg/fibre. I think they would need a small amount of veg and something bisquity for fibre to go along with the meat.


 Not being funny here but, before posting about the subject, why not learn something about it first? Nobody has ever said that BARF is about hurling bits of dead animals at your dog and feeding nothing but that.
It has always been about raw meat and bones, raw or cooked vegs, rice, pasta, wholegrain mizer etc.
In addition, if a canid eats any grazing prey species, they usually tear out the stomach first and eat that. That contains vegetable matter (grass). If I feed my dogs on a whole rabbit, they get to eat everything, skin, fur, bones, meat, innards containing poo and stomach containing grass.
However domesticated your dog is, it is built exactly the same as any wild canid and is perfectly capable of eating whole carcases, digesting them and thriving on them. Even pretty little cute doggies like my chihuahuas (pictured somewhere on here doing just that)


----------



## Myo

Emmaj said:


> yeah but there are people like us that WONT feed the odd biscuit, chew or mixer as we think its crap in a bag...............at least with the diet we feed we know what are animals are eating and that its fresh
> 
> If you aint read up about something then dont put it down or make unactual facts about it being wrong...............


*I have not put raw feeding down or said that is is wrong at all in any way. * In every post I have made I have said I think it's a good idea, BUT, I would offer a more varied diet instead of nothing but meat AND if you give a dog a whole animal carcass it will be messy. Those are my two points, nothing more, nothing less!

And I did read an article about it once. 



Ssthisto said:


> Actually, dog "biscuits" and bread-based goods for dogs have really only been available for the last hundred years or so.
> 
> Which of these two links is a wolf skull?
> Skull 1
> Skull 2
> 
> One of them is a wolf. One of them is a dog.
> 
> 
> Dogs have been bred by humans for thousands of years and fed on the foods humans simply couldn't eat - bones - and whatever they could catch for themselves. It's only since 1900 or so that dedicated "dog food" has ever been available... and the mixers etc only have to keep a dog alive for six months to be proven "nutritional".


I am not going to remember the differences in skull from watching a programme for half an hour god knows how long ago am I?



fenwoman said:


> Choking because it is trying to quickly scoff something it shouldn't have has nothing to do with the myth about bones being dangerous because of splinters. My dogs have choked when drinking water if they gulped quickly. Is water dangerous?
> 
> 
> 
> so why feed your dog in the living room? I mean really, surely that much is easy to work out?
> 
> 
> shame on you for not making the rabbit safe.
> 
> 
> They haven't 'evolved to become', they always were omnivorous.
> 
> 
> Not being funny here but, before posting about the subject, why not learn something about it first? Nobody has ever said that BARF is about hurling bits of dead animals at your dog and feeding nothing but that.
> *It has always been about raw meat and bones, raw or cooked vegs, rice, pasta, wholegrain mizer etc.*
> In addition, if a canid eats any grazing prey species, they usually tear out the stomach first and eat that. That contains vegetable matter (grass). If I feed my dogs on a whole rabbit, they get to eat everything, skin, fur, bones, meat, innards containing poo and stomach containing grass.
> However domesticated your dog is, it is built exactly the same as any wild canid and is perfectly capable of eating whole carcases, digesting them and thriving on them. Even pretty little cute doggies like my chihuahuas (pictured somewhere on here doing just that)


 
*Thank you! my biggest point here was that dogs are omnivores!!!* I did read an article about raw feeding a long while a go (not sure if I finnished it) and I don't remember it talking about feeding anything other than meat, or maybe it did now I think about it, i honestly can't remember. Some People on here were arguing that dogs are carnivores. All I was trying to say is that a dog is an omnivore and it can't be sustained on nothing but meat.

And my other point still stands - a whole carcass in the living room, the kitchen the garden, wherever, you're gonna need to clean up a very nasty mess.

And yes, shame on me for not making sure the rabbit was safe. We'd actaully fenced off the area around the rabbit hutch which was locked at the time. The dog had jumped the fence and chewed the lock off the hutch. I was only about 10 at the time.


----------



## Ssthisto

Myo said:


> I am not going to remember the differences in skull from watching a programme for half an hour god knows how long ago am I?


Ok, then take a wild guess. Which skull is a dog's, and which one's a wolf's, given that a dog is "supposed" to have molars for chewing plant matter as well as teeth for eating meat?


----------



## Myo

Ssthisto said:


> Ok, then take a wild guess. Which skull is a dog's, and which one's a wolf's, given that a dog is "supposed" to have molars for chewing plant matter as well as teeth for eating meat?


 
I told you I am not gonna be able to notice the subtle differences that were brought up in the programme I watched yonks ago.


----------



## Myo

Ssthisto said:


> Ok, then take a wild guess. Which skull is a dog's, and which one's a wolf's, given that a dog is "supposed" to have molars for chewing plant matter as well as teeth for eating meat?


 
Infact I just had a look then and you can't even see the teeth that the programme was talking about cos the jaw is shut. it was the bottom back ones, and I think they said they were flatter in a dog, or had a small flat surface on them or something like that. My memory isn't the greatest.


----------



## Myo

Oh yeah forgot my original point here which was that chicken bones break and splinter - which people have said only happens with cooked chicken bones, which is fair enough.


----------



## peaches

Ssthisto said:


> Which of these two links is a wolf skull?
> Skull 1
> Skull 2
> 
> One of them is a wolf. One of them is a dog.


well I'll have a guess then because I haven't got a clue:lol2:

1 a dog and 2 a wolf???


----------



## labmad

Myo said:


> *I have not put raw feeding down or said that is is wrong at all in any way. *In every post I have made I have said I think it's a good idea, BUT, I would offer a more varied diet instead


I dont get it - are you saying they need 'more' on offer than what can be provided in a RAW diet, if you look hard enough and ask questions etc then you WILL find all what you need AND at less expense - if a documentry was to be made about the pet food industry and actually give the general public the knowledge of 'exactly' how it's made and what goes into it then MANY people would, in MY opinion, view their pet food differently, I guess it's sometimes like too much hardwork to find better alternatives for our animals for some - at the end of the day our animals cant make up their own minds as to what diets they get (unless you have wild dogs of course) so it's up to us to offer what you think is RIGHT and BETTER for them, I mean are you gonna let you kids eat what they want? I guess some do, but sooner or later down the road there is gonna be issues!

Too many people think that when their dog gets to a certain age in life a LOT just THINK it's old age, when really it's more likely through a lifetime of s**t food, and all because of 'convenience' 

These are just MY opinions of course - i guess if you dont like em or dis-agree then tell someone who actally gives a s**t


----------



## Ssthisto

peaches said:


> well I'll have a guess then because I haven't got a clue:lol2:
> 
> 1 a dog and 2 a wolf???


*chuckle* Nope, it's the other way around. The first animal skull is a grey wolf; the second is a domestic dog. The wolf has more "chewing" teeth than the dog does - certainly in those photos, anyway! We've neotenised dogs - they're basically puppy wolves all their lives.

I must admit I was tempted to post a photo of a wolf skull and a photo of a coyote skull just to see if anyone would catch me on it  Google Image search is great... and I LOVE Skulls Unlimited's replica collection. I want to get some of their reptile skull replicas to use in education, but they're not cheap.

Far as it goes, I wish I'd known that kibbled grain-based diets are detrimental to anything but a seed-eating animal before our cats got properly hooked on them - it might have saved most of Jonesy's teeth (well, that, and if the neighbour hadn't been giving him bowls of milk because "he likes it"... yeah, he likes it but I don't like £200 of vet bills for dental work, and you didn't offer to pay anything towards "your" cat either!). As it is I don't know if he can manage a chicken wing with just three front canines, the little nibbling incisors at the front and two shearing carnassials that don't meet because they're on opposite sides of his mouth. 

Does anyone have any experience of feeding raw to a mostly-toothless cat?


----------



## labmad

Ssthisto;2846340
Does anyone have any experience of feeding raw to a mostly-toothless cat?[/quote said:


> Afraid not no, but if you get a wing and slice the skin to expose the meat see what the cat makes of it, he/she may get stuck in, then again it may look at you as if to say 'yeah right' :lol2: - or maybe get some chicken carcusses, the cat me be better suited as the carcuss themselves are softer and probably more manageable for the lil kittey with few teeth
> 
> PS - if your still in Hudds, there is a poultry place in Paddock, carcusses £2.50 a box


----------



## Emmaj

Myo said:


> *I have not put raw feeding down or said that is is wrong at all in any way. *In every post I have made I have said I think it's a good idea, BUT, I would offer a more varied diet instead of nothing but meat AND if you give a dog a whole animal carcass it will be messy. Those are my two points, nothing more, nothing less!


 
But i dont feed only meat and bones.................they get fruit and veg too.......................i have animals that depend on fresh veg and fruit in their diet so always have it available 


hence why i said reseach a diet your knocking before you knock it................you stated yourself that you hadnt done much research in the diet so if thats the case you dont know what the full BARF diet consists of 

thats what i ment by putting it down i just worded it wrong at them time im sorry


----------



## Ssthisto

labmad said:


> Afraid not no, but if you get a wing and slice the skin to expose the meat see what the cat makes of it, he/she may get stuck in, then again it may look at you as if to say 'yeah right' :lol2: - or maybe get some chicken carcusses, the cat me be better suited as the carcuss themselves are softer and probably more manageable for the lil kittey with few teeth


I've tried giving Jonesy and Newt chicken wings in the past - they LIKE them but they're not quite sure what to make of them or how to eat them properly. 

I do wonder if they'd eat a frozen-thawed mouse or rat, mind you... 



> PS - if your still in Hudds, there is a poultry place in Paddock, carcusses £2.50 a box


How big are these boxes of carcasses? After stocking the chest freezer for the snakes, we're a little short on freezer space, although we do have the little "spare" freezer... 

And whereabouts in Paddock? I'm just up the hill/sideways from there in Lindley, you see


----------



## labmad

The boxes you get have approx 80-100 carcusses in all for £2.50, you could always ask them if you can have a sample or a smaller amount.

the place is called Clarke and Whittam, as i dont know Hudds too great i cant describe it too well, but here goes, I turn right up Edgerton Rd (i think) at the traffic lights, at the mini roundabout go straight across towards paddock which takes you down the sid of the park, then just keep going, under the low bridge, then right next to the Jet petrol station turn right, and it's just 20 yards up there (kinda behind the petrol station next to the flats )  .....thats best i can do as for explaining where it is, or there number is 01484 480486 



Ssthisto said:


> I've tried giving Jonesy and Newt chicken wings in the past - they LIKE them but they're not quite sure what to make of them or how to eat them properly.
> 
> I do wonder if they'd eat a frozen-thawed mouse or rat, mind you...
> 
> 
> 
> How big are these boxes of carcasses? After stocking the chest freezer for the snakes, we're a little short on freezer space, although we do have the little "spare" freezer...
> 
> And whereabouts in Paddock? I'm just up the hill/sideways from there in Lindley, you see


----------



## Ssthisto

labmad said:


> The boxes you get have approx 80-100 carcusses in all for £2.50, you could always ask them if you can have a sample or a smaller amount.


I'm trying to imagine the size of these boxes - are they a "carload" or are they something that one person could carry on their own/take on a bus? 

Silly question I'm sure 



> the place is called Clarke and Whittam, as i dont know Hudds too great i cant describe it too well, but here goes, I turn right up Edgerton Rd (i think) at the traffic lights, at the mini roundabout go straight across towards paddock which takes you down the sid of the park, then just keep going, under the low bridge, then right next to the Jet petrol station turn right, and it's just 20 yards up there (kinda behind the petrol station next to the flats )  .....thats best i can do as for explaining where it is, or there number is 01484 480486


Found it - it's about fifteen minutes' walk down the road from us. I didn't know there was a poultry processor there! 

Don't suppose you know of any decent butchers here in Hudds too?


----------



## fenwoman

Myo said:


> And my other point still stands - a whole carcass in the living room, the kitchen the garden, wherever, you're gonna need to clean up a very nasty mess.


I'm afraid I can't take your comment seriously given that you have no idea, have never seen a BARF fed dog eat a carcase nor fed one yourself. 
What mess do you imagine there is given that they eat the lot?
Are you really so flipping mimsy that a little bit of hair or something else left in the garden is going to give you a nervous breakdown?
You will see on the photo of the 2 chihuahuas tearing at a rabbit carcase that it is in my house in the middle room which is tiled as I consider carpets to be filthy dirty unhygienic things.
They ate the whole rabbit, nothing left. It may have taken them a day to do it, they may have taken bits of it outside to chew on but heck, that's what dogs do.


----------



## fenwoman

Ssthisto said:


> *chuckle* Nope, it's the other way around. The first animal skull is a grey wolf; the second is a domestic dog. The wolf has more "chewing" teeth than the dog does - certainly in those photos, anyway! We've neotenised dogs - they're basically puppy wolves all their lives.
> 
> I must admit I was tempted to post a photo of a wolf skull and a photo of a coyote skull just to see if anyone would catch me on it  Google Image search is great... and I LOVE Skulls Unlimited's replica collection. I want to get some of their reptile skull replicas to use in education, but they're not cheap.
> 
> Far as it goes, I wish I'd known that kibbled grain-based diets are detrimental to anything but a seed-eating animal before our cats got properly hooked on them - it might have saved most of Jonesy's teeth (well, that, and if the neighbour hadn't been giving him bowls of milk because "he likes it"... yeah, he likes it but I don't like £200 of vet bills for dental work, and you didn't offer to pay anything towards "your" cat either!). As it is I don't know if he can manage a chicken wing with just three front canines, the little nibbling incisors at the front and two shearing carnassials that don't meet because they're on opposite sides of his mouth.
> 
> Does anyone have any experience of feeding raw to a mostly-toothless cat?


 I haven't had the same experience as you with cat kibble. My 2 old boys died aged 18 and 19 respectively. They were fed almost exclusively on kibble apart from whatever they caught for themselves. Neither had a day's illness until they died and neither had any teeth lost either. Both had sparkling white gnashers right until the day they were pts to prevent suffering.
But then, although I feed whole carcases to my cats and dogs, I also feed kibble, just as I feed the tortoise on some pellets too. I don't believe that manufactured diets are all the work of the devil. Mind you, I wouldn't rear a giant breed pup on pure kibble but I don't think it is all bad for adults with less protein requirements.
And my cats get milk daily and always have done for as long as I've had cats and goats. So do the dogs if I have a surplus. Nobody has gastric troubles from it I have a theory that since they get it daily, they are lactose tolerant.Just as we humans have milk daily when we don't require it and don't all suffer because of it.


----------



## labmad

the boxes arent massive and will be fine for a bus ride, but should you walk home 15mins with it you may be puffing a bit 



Ssthisto said:


> I'm trying to imagine the size of these boxes - are they a "carload" or are they something that one person could carry on their own/take on a bus?
> 
> Silly question I'm sure
> 
> 
> 
> Found it - it's about fifteen minutes' walk down the road from us. I didn't know there was a poultry processor there!
> 
> Don't suppose you know of any decent butchers here in Hudds too?


No idea about butchers in Hudds, i'd just go ask a few a nd be cheeky 

Sailbrand just off Leeds Rd do Salmon Fish Heads if you want something else in there too


----------



## Myo

labmad said:


> I dont get it - are you saying they need 'more' on offer than what can be provided in a RAW diet, if you look hard enough and ask questions etc then you WILL find all what you need AND at less expense - if a documentry was to be made about the pet food industry and actually give the general public the knowledge of 'exactly' how it's made and what goes into it then MANY people would, in MY opinion, view their pet food differently, I guess it's sometimes like too much hardwork to find better alternatives for our animals for some - at the end of the day our animals cant make up their own minds as to what diets they get (unless you have wild dogs of course) so it's up to us to offer what you think is RIGHT and BETTER for them, I mean are you gonna let you kids eat what they want? I guess some do, but sooner or later down the road there is gonna be issues!
> 
> Too many people think that when their dog gets to a certain age in life a LOT just THINK it's old age, when really it's more likely through a lifetime of s**t food, and all because of 'convenience'
> 
> These are just MY opinions of course - i guess if you dont like em or dis-agree then tell someone who actally gives a s**t


I don't even know what I'm saying any more, I started off saying that I was told that chicken bones choked dogs. I've had people saying that dogs are carnivores and I've tried to say they are actually omnivores, I've had people trying to belittle me with pictures of dog skulls, then I've had people who are somehow thinking I'm having a go at raw diets and wanting argue, Then I've got people like you who even admit at the start of their post that they don't even know what I am saying, but they think they'll be a smart arse and throw their two penneth in anyway.


----------



## labmad

Myo said:


> I don't even know what I'm saying any more


I aint wanting an argument at all, it's just the way you puts things across, for example, by saying you would want to add a more varied diet, if you or anyone for that matter actually looks at what the whole BARF, RMB diets consist of then you would realise that once you have got the right source outlets, it would soon become apparant that you have PLENTY of food for them to eat etc etc

As for the name calling and me adding my 2 penniths worth, geeshh thanks, I've been called worse by pre-pubesent rascals before, oh sorry I'm stooping to your level now :censor:

As for the quote at the top - you nailed it :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Feel free to research and then come back and have an adult conversation when you actually know what the hell you are on about :whistling2:


----------



## Ssthisto

Myo said:


> I've had people saying that dogs are carnivores and I've tried to say they are actually omnivores


I would be inclined to say that dogs are omnivores in the same way that horses are. Opportunistic omnivory when something tasty presents itself - but dogs are designed and built primarily for carnivory, same as wolves, which they biologically essentially still are. 

A horse will eat a bacon sandwich if you give it one - but that doesn't mean that they NEED bacon sandwiches in their diet, nor that you should start feeding them a significant portion of meat because they're obviously omnivores (heck, they even have canines... if you don't have them pulled out). It just means that your horse liked the taste - and probably particularly the salt - in the bacon sandwich.

A dog will eat fruit, vegetables and grains - particularly if the latter two are presented in a palatable manner - but it doesn't mean they need more than a tiny amount - like what might be sticking to green tripe - because they're still carnivores. I wouldn't have a problem with giving a raw-fed dog a carrot or a bit of fruit or some greens, but not as a major part of the diet. And I personally don't like the idea of feeding anything that's not built to eat it grain, because I know what dickens it plays with my own guts!



> I've had people trying to belittle me with pictures of dog skulls,


Not at all. I just wanted to know if you, the poster who said that dog's teeth are now "designed" to eat kibble/vegetable based food, could tell the difference between an actual dog's skull and an actual wolf's skull. The fact that they are so similar that most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference (and I deliberately found photographs that reflected that, yes) says that dogs are still functionally and biologically wolves.

I do wonder if that "flat place" at the back of the rearward tooth that you mentioned the show talked about is present in dogs that have ALWAYS been fed raw bones, dogs that are SOMETIMES fed kibble or dogs that have ALWAYS been fed kibble... because it could be an unnatural wear pattern derived from diet rather than a natural growth pattern. Give me a few months and I could probably wear down my own teeth in such a way as to imply, say, a diet of raw clams straight from the shell (bevelling on the front teeth where they're used to pry the clams open) ... but that doesn't mean I was born to grow clam-eater's teeth.



> I've had people who are somehow thinking I'm having a go at raw diets and wanting argue.


Congratulations, you're posting on a forum. What you say can and will be picked apart if someone disagrees with you. 

If someone has other facts they'll present them - it's nothing personal, we're just writing to words on a screen, we don't know you but we know what your words say, and if we believe they're wrong we'll tell you about them (at great length, in some cases!) You stated things as fact that other people disagree with and believe are myth or at best only partial fact. Therefore, we present what we believe or know to be true.



labmad said:


> the boxes arent massive and will be fine for a bus ride, but should you walk home 15mins with it you may be puffing a bit


Ahhh. We may have to go down and have a look then - the spare freezer would do fine for cat food. As for the butchers, it was more for people-food  I just don't know many in the area, and would like to start getting my own meat from a butcher rather than Tesco.

And Fenny - I'm not disagreeing with your experience, and I know of cats and dogs that have had good long lives on kibble too. But the combination of kibble and skimmed milk from the elderly couple down the road is what's destroyed my specific cat's teeth... wish they'd been giving him fresh goat's milk straight from the tap instead!

I must admit I don't drink milk either - I definitely seem to have an intolerance to lactose, although I can get away with cream and cheese in greater quantities. A spoonful of semi-skimmed in my coffee is enough to have me doing the fifty-yard bathroom dash *sigh*.


----------



## Myo

fenwoman said:


> I'm afraid I can't take your comment seriously given that you have no idea, have never seen a BARF fed dog eat a carcase nor fed one yourself.
> What mess do you imagine there is given that they eat the lot?
> Are you really so flipping mimsy that a little bit of hair or something else left in the garden is going to give you a nervous breakdown?
> You will see on the photo of the 2 chihuahuas tearing at a rabbit carcase that it is in my house in the middle room which is tiled as I consider carpets to be filthy dirty unhygienic things.
> They ate the whole rabbit, nothing left. It may have taken them a day to do it, they may have taken bits of it outside to chew on but heck, that's what dogs do.


As said, I'm basing it on a dog I owned that got a rabbit. it wasn't just a bit of fur in the garden. The dog had eaten a leg and torn the rest up all over the garden. 

You think carpets are filthy unhygenioc things and yet you let your dogs maul a dead rabbit in your house? that's just odd.



fenwoman said:


> I haven't had the same experience as you with cat kibble. My 2 old boys died aged 18 and 19 respectively. They were fed almost exclusively on kibble apart from whatever they caught for themselves. Neither had a day's illness until they died and neither had any teeth lost either. Both had sparkling white gnashers right until the day they were pts to prevent suffering.
> But then, although I feed whole carcases to my cats and dogs, I also feed kibble, just as I feed the tortoise on some pellets too. I don't believe that manufactured diets are all the work of the devil. Mind you, I wouldn't rear a giant breed pup on pure kibble but I don't think it is all bad for adults with less protein requirements.
> And my cats get milk daily and always have done for as long as I've had cats and goats. So do the dogs if I have a surplus. Nobody has gastric troubles from it I have a theory that since they get it daily, they are lactose tolerant.Just as we humans have milk daily when we don't require it and don't all suffer because of it.


Kibble? I didn't know kibble was part of a raw diet.




Ssthisto said:


> I would be inclined to say that dogs are omnivores in the same way that horses are. Opportunistic omnivory when something tasty presents itself - but dogs are designed and built primarily for carnivory, same as wolves, which they biologically essentially still are.
> 
> A horse will eat a bacon sandwich if you give it one - but that doesn't mean that they NEED bacon sandwiches in their diet, nor that you should start feeding them a significant portion of meat because they're obviously omnivores (heck, they even have canines... if you don't have them pulled out). It just means that your horse liked the taste - and probably particularly the salt - in the bacon sandwich.
> 
> A dog will eat fruit, vegetables and grains - particularly if the latter two are presented in a palatable manner - but it doesn't mean they need more than a tiny amount - like what might be sticking to green tripe - because they're still carnivores. I wouldn't have a problem with giving a raw-fed dog a carrot or a bit of fruit or some greens, but not as a major part of the diet. And I personally don't like the idea of feeding anything that's not built to eat it grain, because I know what dickens it plays with my own guts!
> 
> 
> Not at all. I just wanted to know if you, the poster who said that dog's teeth are now "designed" to eat kibble/vegetable based food, could tell the difference between an actual dog's skull and an actual wolf's skull. The fact that they are so similar that most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference (and I deliberately found photographs that reflected that, yes) says that dogs are still functionally and biologically wolves.
> 
> I do wonder if that "flat place" at the back of the rearward tooth that you mentioned the show talked about is present in dogs that have ALWAYS been fed raw bones, dogs that are SOMETIMES fed kibble or dogs that have ALWAYS been fed kibble... because it could be an unnatural wear pattern derived from diet rather than a natural growth pattern. Give me a few months and I could probably wear down my own teeth in such a way as to imply, say, a diet of raw clams straight from the shell (bevelling on the front teeth where they're used to pry the clams open) ... but that doesn't mean I was born to grow clam-eater's teeth.
> 
> 
> Congratulations, you're posting on a forum. What you say can and will be picked apart if someone disagrees with you.
> 
> If someone has other facts they'll present them - it's nothing personal, we're just writing to words on a screen, we don't know you but we know what your words say, and if we believe they're wrong we'll tell you about them (at great length, in some cases!) You stated things as fact that other people disagree with and believe are myth or at best only partial fact. Therefore, we present what we believe or know to be true.


I have had a little look into it this morning and it is actually debatable whether dogs are omnivores or carnivores. I personally think they're omnivores and wouldn't give them a diet of nothing but meat.

Presenting facts is one thing, it's when you get people trying to be smart that irritates me. Like labmad. You can tell by reading his posts that he doesn't actually care about the subject, he's simply posting to try and make himself look good by trying to make others look bad. A very poor quality in a person. That's the problem with this site. There's a whole bandwaggon of putting people down, it really gets on my nerves. I don't even post on here in most of the threads I read because they'res allways some nob who thinks he's great. This could be a great forum, it's an awfull shame.


----------



## labmad

Myo said:


> Presenting facts is one thing, it's when you get people trying to be smart that irritates me. Like labmad. You can tell by reading his posts that he doesn't actually care about the subject, he's simply posting to try and make himself look good by trying to make others look bad. A very poor quality in a person. That's the problem with this site. There's a whole bandwaggon of putting people down, it really gets on my nerves. I don't even post on here in most of the threads I read because they'res allways some nob who thinks he's great. This could be a great forum, it's an awfull shame.


Oh no i am now sat here writing this with tears rolling down me face, i may even contemplate ending it all.......I cant take it no-more........WHATEVER - I jump on NO bandwagon, just tell it like it is, if you want a YES man then your looking in the wrong place.......

now then, how can you tell by reading my posts that I dont care about the subject - so you read the opening post in this sticky, which i went to the trouble of posting for newbies to RAW feeding, like I dont already have enough to do, but if it makes you feel better then fill your boots sugar :bash:

So AGAIN, research the subject you wish to debate, when you actually know what you are waffling about then try again - prat!


----------



## Meko

Myo said:


> I started off saying that I was told that chicken bones choked dogs. .


 
They probably will if you give a big dog a chicken wing and they try to swallow it whole.


----------



## fenwoman

Myo said:


> As said, I'm basing it on a dog I owned that got a rabbit. it wasn't just a bit of fur in the garden. The dog had eaten a leg and torn the rest up all over the garden.
> 
> You think carpets are filthy unhygenioc things and yet you let your dogs maul a dead rabbit in your house? that's just odd.


 they don't maul a dead rabbit, they eat it. Then I get my bleachy bucket and wash the floors. I also wash them dail to remove filth brought in one shoes from outside, dust, etc. You can't do that with the carpet which traps dust, filth and smells. Get down on your hands and knees, stick your nose into your carpet and take a good long sniff. Yuck!





> Kibble? I didn't know kibble was part of a raw diet.


 Didn't you?






> I have had a little look into it this morning and it is actually debatable whether dogs are omnivores or carnivores. I personally think they're omnivores and wouldn't give them a diet of nothing but meat.


 no it isn't debateable. They are indeed omnivores and nobody is disputing that. Nor is anyone saying that they need to be fed exclusively on meat. See you still haven't done much research have you?



> Presenting facts is one thing, it's when you get people trying to be smart that irritates me. Like labmad. You can tell by reading his posts that he doesn't actually care about the subject, he's simply posting to try and make himself look good by trying to make others look bad. A very poor quality in a person. That's the problem with this site. There's a whole bandwaggon of putting people down, it really gets on my nerves. I don't even post on here in most of the threads I read because they'res allways some nob who thinks he's great. This could be a great forum, it's an awfull shame.


 Most of the people on the forum have been here a long time. Most understand the concept of debate and are happy to discuss and disagree and argue the toss. The ones who spoil it are those who are convinced that only they are correct, despite them being obviously clueless about the subject. They then get all defensive and start accusing people of being rude, knowing it all, wanting to appear this that or the other way.
I suggest you learn about BARF befor posting, and when you post, don't take anything to herat and learn to accept that people have differences of opinion and that some will debate with you in order to prove a point. Nothing is personal, no insults are flung about, it's only a forum.


----------



## nittydavison

Hello, i have been feeding my 2 dogs raw for about 3 months now. I think they are doing really well on it and it is soo much cheaper. However, a couple of people have been mortified when i have told them about how i feed my dogs and they advised me to ask my vet. So i rang up my vet and she too was mortified that i feed it and basicly told me never to feed it to them again. Now im in a dilema cos i dont know what to do for the best. My vet said something about the calcium levels in raw meat but i do feed eggs with the shells daily, also she claimed my dogs could catch a number of bacteria and illnesses from this way of feeding. 
Can someone please tell me what to do. My rotty has hip dysplasia so therefore does need a good source of calcium, are egg shells enough???


----------



## Ssthisto

If your dogs are doing well on the diet - and you're making sure you feed meaty bones (which have calcium) and not just raw muscle meat - I can't see why you should swap. Most vets DO get horrified... because a good deal of nutritional training in veterinary school is sponsored by the dog food companies!

Yes, your dogs COULD wind up carrying various bacteria - don't let them lick your face and wash your hands after preparing their food or cleaning up after them. Their digestive systems are equipped to handle raw and even rotting food - what do their ancestors eat?


----------



## FoxyMumma

Just a quickie... Can I feed rabbits that have been killed for snake food?? rather than wild rabbits?
Ta :2thumb:


----------



## fenwoman

nittydavison said:


> Hello, i have been feeding my 2 dogs raw for about 3 months now. I think they are doing really well on it and it is soo much cheaper. However, a couple of people have been mortified when i have told them about how i feed my dogs and they advised me to ask my vet. So i rang up my vet and she too was mortified that i feed it and basicly told me never to feed it to them again. Now im in a dilema cos i dont know what to do for the best. My vet said something about the calcium levels in raw meat but i do feed eggs with the shells daily, also she claimed my dogs could catch a number of bacteria and illnesses from this way of feeding.
> Can someone please tell me what to do. My rotty has hip dysplasia so therefore does need a good source of calcium, are egg shells enough???


I would say change your vet. Any vet who has not even got the basic knowledge of how a dog's digestive system works and what any dog's natural diet is, would not be properly qualified to treat my animals as far as I'm concerned. Before accepting a vet's word as the gospel truth, quoestion them. Ask them about the powerful enzymes in a dog's digestive juices which kill bacteria. Surely they were taught that at vet school? How else would dogs be able to eat 'off' meat, other animals poo etc without beocoming sick. If they have no knowledge of these enzymes then I would want to know whether they completely missed this part of their training, or whether this wasn't covered at all.
Secondly, I would also ask, since raw feeding means eating whole carcasse, how the bones wouldn't be adding calcium to their diet, and what about the egg shells. 
BTW calcium will have zero effect on your dog's hip displaysia which is a deformed hip joint. No calcium in the world will put right something like that, only surgery will be able to correct it.
Personally, if you have such little confidence in how you feed your dogs, that you have to listen to a couple of random people who I assume are not canine dieticians, nor have any experience in the field, and then double check with your vet, perhaps you need to make sure firstly, that you are actually feeding it all correctly, by asking people on here, and feeding properly, not just meat and vegetables etc but whole carcase with fur, bones, or feathers, or go with the flow and buy only kibble for your dog. However, I am rapidly losing faith in vets as some are keen to promote the £50 a bag, grain based rubbish and will denigrate a proper natural diet. Is it because of lack of knowledge or profit driven? Who knows.
Arm yourself with knowledge, that way, when someone expresses horror, you can blind them with science, argue your corner and give them proper reasons with all the why's and wherefore's, just like I have done and others have done. Once you have the knowledge and you know what you are doing and know that you are doing it right, you won't have to be influenced by people who have no idea.
Can you imagine my reaction if some random person told me that I wasn't feeding my dogs properly by feeding BARF? Firstly, I would tell them WTF has it got to do with them. Secondly, I'd ask what they knew about the subject and make them feel stupid if they knew nothing, and lastly, I'd give them a lecture on why and how to feed BARF and the benefits of feeding it over kibble.
Would I rush about asking loads of different people their opinions? Nope. That would just show that I didn't really understand the concept and needed others to tell me that I was doing it right.
From knowledge comes power so learn the principles of BARF and then you can tell people that they don't know what they're talking about and feel confident about it yourself. Otherwise, play safe, listen to all these random people and feed kibble.

Put on your Xmas pressie list a copy of 'Give your dog a bone' by Ian Billinghurst. Who is a vet.


----------



## fenwoman

FoxyMumma said:


> Just a quickie... Can I feed rabbits that have been killed for snake food?? rather than wild rabbits?
> Ta :2thumb:


sure you can. Rabbits is rabbits.


----------



## FoxyMumma

fenwoman said:


> sure you can. Rabbits is rabbits.


Fab, I can get hold of med/large rabbits (Big enough??) for £2 each near me, so will hopefully cover me for a while till i find someone who lamps in my area :2thumb:


----------



## nittydavison

hi, thanks for the info. I am more than certain i am feeding it correctly and i am happy that i am feeding it to my dogs but when i have people saying its wrong, i was just a little concerned that i was doing the wrong thing. I love my dogs with all my heart and i only want whats best for them which is why i chose barf in the first place. Deep down i know its right for them but i just wanted someone else to reassure me and now i am, so thank you. It definatly seems to be the more proffessional people that tend to tell me its wrong and you would think it would be the other way round. 
yeah i agree that calcium would not help with hip dysplacia but they have said that because he is still a pup and is still growing that calcium will benefit. He does have egg shells and not just muscle meat so i am 100% happy with what i am doing. 
Their favourites are rabbits with the fur and guts and everything, YUM YUM.
anyway thanks again.


----------



## FoxyMumma

Well, Ive just gutted and skinned my first rabbits for dinner tomorrow, brought an extra one for the dogs to see if they're interested,
I thought Id share some pictures of my two getting stuck into their very first rabbit!! 

















Lexi the Rotty pup tucked in with gusto, Faith was a bit wary but once she saw Lexi enjoying it she started tucking in too! :2thumb:

Cant wait for my dinner tomorrow!! :mf_dribble::mf_dribble::lol2:


----------



## Frogmad

I am a veterinary nurse, I think that everyone has a right to their own opinions on feeding..Personally I wouldn't go raw but that is my preference, I have read about 80% of this thread and I would like to know where the people who claim that there is evidence which shows that commercial food causes things like hip dysplasia got their facts from???? This is a breed disposition (like heart problems in CKCS's) and has nothing to do with food just bad breeding....why else would reputable lab (and other breeds) breeders have their dogs BVA HD scheme xrayed prior to first breeding??? Also there is no evidence that commercial food causes any other diseases, granted tinned food is not great for teeth. but my cats who are 7 and 5, my mums cat who is 13,my uncles cat who is 10 have great teeth and they are fed on100% commercial dry food.
I think if people feed this food after researching it completely then thats great if they know what they are doing, problems occur when people jump on the band wagon and end up feeding off or unsuitable meat/bones.
Domestic cats and dogs ARE NOT wolves/foxes/tigers/cougars etc they have been just what is says domesticated! that means their genes and needs have changed over the past few hundred years
Anyway said my piece and I'll say again that it's personal preference what you feed you pets!:whistling2:


----------



## fenwoman

Frogmad said:


> I am a veterinary nurse, I think that everyone has a right to their own opinions on feeding..Personally I wouldn't go raw but that is my preference, I have read about 80% of this thread and I would like to know where the people who claim that there is evidence which shows that commercial food causes things like hip dysplasia got their facts from????



Nobody on here has said that commercial diets cause hip displaysia. It isn't a breed disposition, it is an inherited deformity of the socket joint in the pelvis. But as a vet nurse, you knew that right?



> Also there is no evidence that commercial food causes any other diseases, granted tinned food is not great for teeth. but my cats who are 7 and 5, my mums cat who is 13,my uncles cat who is 10 have great teeth and they are fed on100% commercial dry food.


 Nobody said commercial chemical laden artificial diets cause diseases. They are crap and a lazy way to feed your pet. My cats get kibble left out for them but in all honesty, since when did felines which are obligate carnivores, evolve to eat grain?
Would you be happy eating vitamin enriched dry toast every single day of your life? That's what kibble is like.



> I think if people feed this food after researching it completely then thats great if they know what they are doing, problems occur when people jump on the band wagon and end up feeding off or unsuitable meat/bones.


 What problems? Be specific. Why would people feed 'off' food to their animals? Who said they did? Actually, since you are a vet nurse, you will of course be aware of the powerful enzymes in canine stomachs which mean that they, like foxes, (vulpines) can eat 'high' meat and carrion and not suffer any problems at all. What meat and bones would you deem 'unsuitable'?


> Domestic cats and dogs ARE NOT wolves/foxes/tigers/cougars etc they have been just what is says domesticated! that means their genes and needs have changed over the past few hundred years


I find it saddening that a veterinary nurse has so little knowledge that she thinks that genes can be changed by a few thousand years of living with humans.
Why do you imagine cats and packs of dogs in 3rd world countries can survive and thrive? It's because genes don't change. Canids are canids, they pysical needs and psychological needs remain the same whether they are wild of domesticated. I think you are either not a vet nurse, or have very little knowledge about animals.
Cats remain obligate carnivores no matter if they live with humans or not. The Scottish wildcat is the same as my moggie who sits on my knee and purrs. My chihuahuas have the same need to be within a pack and tear raw meat as their wild cousin the wolf has. Why on earth would you imagine otherwise?
If your opinion and wrong thinking is typical of the veterinary profession gawd help us. It's the reason I tell people not to ask their vet for dietry advice cos they don't have a clue what they are on about and mostly try to sell them a bag of their very expensive maize based, chemically altered soya protein kibble. Luckily a lot of vets are clued up though including mine who is always interested in my feeding of the dogs and cats and is always impressed with their bodily condition and general nice nature. It's all part of eating well and being secure as part of the pack.
If you can get a copy of Ian Billinghurst's books from the library, I recommend you read a bit about BARF. That way, when you post a comment, you'll be doing so from a point of knowledge and not half truths, suppositions, hearsay and false beliefs. Heck, you might even try the diet for yourself on your own pets (if they are lucky). Incidentally, cats don't get the problems of crystals in the urine and associated bladder problems half as much as they do when fed kibble.


----------



## freekygeeky

fenwoman said:


> Incidentally, cats don't get the problems of crystals in the urine and associated bladder problems half as much as they do when fed kibble.


since being fed RAW zingi hasnt had FLUTD


----------



## Frogmad

Evie said:


> How many dogs die prematurely of organ failure, cancer, have allergies/skin complaints. etc................. How many of these complaints are down to crappy dried food with all the nutrients cooked out of them? Foods containing dubious ingredients, pet food with labels designed to decieve the consumer.


Hmmmm that seems to me like someone is blaming commercial diets for disease!
FYI pet food labels are under the same restriction that human food labels are, eg having to name what is in the food, 



Rainmaker said:


> If the bone is whole inside the meat as it would have been present on the animal (or better yet just the whole animal!), the dog has to chew and work at getting food from the 'prey'. This chewing is what maintains oral health in predators such as dogs and cats, and indeed lack of it (eg in commercially fed animals) facilitates the development of periodontal disease, organ failure and early death.
> 
> Raw feeding is entirely safe, provides a 'complete' diet in the true meaning of the word (you don't need anything else) and it's not hard. It's not science either - who here measures, weighs and calculates their kid's food in case they die of nutritional imbalance? Yet people seem deathly afraid of not feeding dry food in case their dog dies a miserable death (pet food manufacturers have done a great job with propaganda over the years!). My dogs have had nothing but raw food and kitchen scraps all their lives, from weaning to adulthood - never a problem. They're lean, strong and fit as the proverbial butcher's. The oldest is nearly 9 btw. You find they grow slightly SLOWER than commercially fed animals (they're not getting "bulked up"), but this is beneficial for organs and joints (think hip dysplasia in commercially fed large breeds). Indeed the world record for longevity goes to a raw fed dog who was nearly 30!!!!
> 
> Raw fed dogs tend to live a long and healthy life without illness (mine have never been ill except for working injury). Then they just don't wake up one day - they 'fall off the perch'. That's in contrast to commercially fed dogs, who develop bad breath, tartar, low grade systemic organ failure (often not diagnosed as such), they become stiff and sore, they don't run around any more as they get "older" (who on earth considers 8 to 10 "old" for a dog?!), then they die a slow miserable death - effectively poisoned to death by commercial food and the resulting periodontal disease.


Hmm blaming commercial diets for HD!!! Oh yes HD is a breed disposition, why is it that we only see it in select breeds? yes it is inherited but is also breed disposed. It is something that can skip many generations and then suddenly appear again.

Some people if they dont research this completely before starting to feed might feed old meat which is not good for the animal, such as severe vomiting and diahorrea which are campy and salmonella based, (I am not saying any of you guys who have been doing this for years will but there are some def odd balls out there). bones too small which they dont crunch which then get lodged are unsuitable wouldn't you agree? 

I am a veterinary nurse and if you read my original post again I have said a couple of times that if people want to feed raw then thats great as long as it is researched..I personally have no desire to feed raw and never will, so I am not going to waste my time looking into it.I have a reasonably large knowledge of animals thank you very much and I dont appreciate you saying that I dont. 

Why do you leave kibble out for your cats if it is so bad and wrong to feed them? Where did I say that cats weren't obligate carnivores? I know they are. 

I noticed in a previous post that you feed your dogs pasta/rice/veg....if the raw feeding is a complete diet what do you supplement with grains/veg just like the food manufacturers???

I am interested to know if any of you guys only eat fresh meat and veg yourselves or if you willingly eat tinned/packet food or if you only drink water (this is how we ate years ago before "convenience" food came out with us) No beer/wine/tea/coffee/juice

Anyway I have said my piece and thats it!


----------



## fenwoman

Frogmad said:


> Hmmmm that seems to me like someone is blaming commercial diets for disease!
> FYI pet food labels are under the same restriction that human food labels are, eg having to name what is in the food,
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm blaming commercial diets for HD!!! Oh yes HD is a breed disposition, why is it that we only see it in select breeds? yes it is inherited but is also breed disposed. It is something that can skip many generations and then suddenly appear again.
> 
> Some people if they dont research this completely before starting to feed might feed old meat which is not good for the animal, such as severe vomiting and diahorrea which are campy and salmonella based, (I am not saying any of you guys who have been doing this for years will but there are some def odd balls out there). bones too small which they dont crunch which then get lodged are unsuitable wouldn't you agree?
> 
> I am a veterinary nurse and if you read my original post again I have said a couple of times that if people want to feed raw then thats great as long as it is researched..I personally have no desire to feed raw and never will, so I am not going to waste my time looking into it.I have a reasonably large knowledge of animals thank you very much and I dont appreciate you saying that I dont.
> 
> Why do you leave kibble out for your cats if it is so bad and wrong to feed them? Where did I say that cats weren't obligate carnivores? I know they are.
> 
> I noticed in a previous post that you feed your dogs pasta/rice/veg....if the raw feeding is a complete diet what do you supplement with grains/veg just like the food manufacturers???
> 
> I am interested to know if any of you guys only eat fresh meat and veg yourselves or if you willingly eat tinned/packet food or if you only drink water (this is how we ate years ago before "convenience" food came out with us) No beer/wine/tea/coffee/juice
> 
> Anyway I have said my piece and thats it!


What we choose to feed ourselves has no relevance yto the thread. Incidentally yes I eat properly like we did years ago. I rear my own meat animals, milk my own goats and keep chickens for eggs. And tea is not a convenience. It is leaves picked and dried and not mucked about with.
It seems to me you wanted to post simply to be contentious and be argumentative. You have misconstrued what people have said either deliberately or because you didn't understand.
It seems that you simply refuse to understand anything which was posted, in order to seem as though you are debating. You aren't.
I am not going to go through each of the points in your last post because personally I simply can't be bothered trying to educate the uneducatable. You don't understand BARF? Fine.
You choose not to try to understand it? That's fine too. Just don't then try to make an argument out of something you don't understand and don't want to understand.


----------



## dragons jen

Would really like to get my Springer on BARF. He lives outside, hates being inside, we have tried but he just isn't happy indoors. I feel it would be much more rewarding for him than just having a bowl of dried food every day.

I've done a bit of reading and as far as I can work out I should feed 60% meaty bones to 40% other food. I can't seem to find anything on how much I should feed (eg how much food in weight for the size of dog) . Is it just a case of trial and error? Also some diets mention using whole grain mixer or rice do these need to be fed every day or just a couple of times a week as it says to do with veggies? Is it ok to do big batches of veg then freeze them?

Also can I feed fresh whole trout? Hubby is a fisherman and we always have plenty in the freezer.


----------



## freekygeeky

lamb breast..
right people.. lol..
my local farm sells lamb breast, my OH has broought some for himself btu hasnt cooked it yet. Now.. is this ok for cats?...or?


----------



## freekygeeky

freekygeeky said:


> lamb breast..
> right people.. lol..
> my local farm sells lamb breast, my OH has broought some for himself btu hasnt cooked it yet. Now.. is this ok for cats?...or?


bump?


----------



## freekygeeky

also.. since being on the barf diet, scooby and toms ( i dont see ginger or zinigis) poos are practically rock solid... normal? or..


----------



## fenwoman

freekygeeky said:


> also.. since being on the barf diet, scooby and toms ( i dont see ginger or zinigis) poos are practically rock solid... normal? or..


 Rock solid as in like pebbles and hard to pass? This should not be the case as raw meat has a higher moisture content than kibble. If the stools are too hard perhaps your cats aren't drinking enough?
What BARF are you actually feeding?
You can always give them some milk and warm water in the morning to encourage them to drink more, or add raw egg to the meat.


----------



## freekygeeky

fenwoman said:


> Rock solid as in like pebbles and hard to pass? This should not be the case as raw meat has a higher moisture content than kibble. If the stools are too hard perhaps your cats aren't drinking enough?
> What BARF are you actually feeding?
> You can always give them some milk and warm water in the morning to encourage them to drink more, or add raw egg to the meat.



just the anglian meat prodcuts, and odd bits of heart once a week. 
maybe they arent drinking enough, have to say i hardly see them drink.
maybe i will add eggs, organic better or does it not matter?

also the post i put at the top of this page, do you know if that would be ok or? (lamb breast)

p.s i thought cats cant have milk (ginger has it though, always has..)


----------



## fenwoman

freekygeeky said:


> just the anglian meat prodcuts, and odd bits of heart once a week.
> maybe they arent drinking enough, have to say i hardly see them drink.
> maybe i will add eggs, organic better or does it not matter?
> 
> also the post i put at the top of this page, do you know if that would be ok or? (lamb breast)
> 
> p.s i thought cats cant have milk (ginger has it though, always has..)


 many cats don't seem to drink enough. My Mr Wiggins doesn't always hence my getting into the milk habit. Yes all the info online will tell you that cats cannot have milk. Personally I'm wondering if the pet food masnufacturers didn't start the myth in order to flog their cat milk stuff. All of my cats past and present have always had milk daily. They all live long and healthy lives. If I haven't got goat milk to spare I give them diluted goat milk in warm water. Just enough to colour it slightly, which is what you might find helpful.
As for eggs, organic doesn't really matter but free range is vital ethically.
Not sure where you are but doesn't anyone nearby keep chickens and sell eggs?
If not, fancy keeping some yourself?:lol2:


----------



## fenwoman

freekygeeky said:


> lamb breast..
> right people.. lol..
> my local farm sells lamb breast, my OH has broought some for himself btu hasnt cooked it yet. Now.. is this ok for cats?...or?


 er...yes (a bit baffled)
why would it not be ok for cats?


----------



## freekygeeky

fenwoman said:


> many cats don't seem to drink enough. My Mr Wiggins doesn't always hence my getting into the milk habit. Yes all the info online will tell you that cats cannot have milk. Personally I'm wondering if the pet food masnufacturers didn't start the myth in order to flog their cat milk stuff. All of my cats past and present have always had milk daily. They all live long and healthy lives. If I haven't got goat milk to spare I give them diluted goat milk in warm water. Just enough to colour it slightly, which is what you might find helpful.
> As for eggs, organic doesn't really matter but free range is vital ethically.
> Not sure where you are but doesn't anyone nearby keep chickens and sell eggs?
> If not, fancy keeping some yourself?:lol2:


my dads always wanted them, but we arent aloud to keep them its in the deeds.. have no ideas why.

thanky for your help.

ill just go to the farm 

there is a farm i the village where we get our meat eggs etc.


----------



## freekygeeky

fenwoman said:


> er...yes (a bit baffled)
> why would it not be ok for cats?


well i have no idea.
lol
its apparently..
has bones.. and has quite a bit of fat..
bones are too big for them to eat.. so (it wouldnt splinter) but i guess they would chew it off right?

im new to the whole bones thing! lol shh!


----------



## Frogmad

just a quicky on the milk thing....many (but not all) cats are lactose intolerant....however I feel that if you just colour water with the milk you should be fine.
Hove you tried a water fountain for them? lots of cats actually prefer running water so it encourages them to drink


----------



## freekygeeky

Frogmad said:


> just a quicky on the milk thing....many (but not all) cats are lactose intolerant....however I feel that if you just colour water with the milk you should be fine.
> Hove you tried a water fountain for them? lots of cats actually prefer running water so it encourages them to drink


i have to admit, they do drink .. when they shouldnt... out of the pump in the fish tank. so maybe they do like it ''moving''


----------



## fenwoman

Frogmad said:


> just a quicky on the milk thing....many (but not all) cats are lactose intolerant....however I feel that if you just colour water with the milk you should be fine.
> Hove you tried a water fountain for them? lots of cats actually prefer running water so it encourages them to drink


 So you too have read all the websites telling you that milk is bad for cats?
I have kepts a large number of cats for a large number of years (I'm very very old). I've also kept goats. All of my cats line up when I come in from milking and start miowing, telling me to hurry up and splosh milk into their dish.
The dogs are the same.
Even this new abused cat Tabitha now has milk and loves it.
If nobody ever ready the websites telling you that cats are lactose intolerant, and everyone gave their cats milk,I wonder what would happen?
Perhaps the only cats to have a reaction to milk are ones who's owners have read that they shouldn't have it?:lol2:


----------



## fenwoman

freekygeeky said:


> well i have no idea.
> lol
> its apparently..
> has bones.. and has quite a bit of fat..
> bones are too big for them to eat.. so (it wouldnt splinter) but i guess they would chew it off right?
> 
> im new to the whole bones thing! lol shh!


fat, bones, meat, as long as it is raw is what cats were designed to eat.
Incidentally it was bone day today cos I went to the slaughter house. I get a huge sack full whenever I go. So all the dogs had bones and the cats also had some of them. I pick out the nicest ones for them. They like spines and huge marrow bones.


----------



## freekygeeky

fenwoman said:


> fat, bones, meat, as long as it is raw is what cats were designed to eat.
> Incidentally it was bone day today cos I went to the slaughter house. I get a huge sack full whenever I go. So all the dogs had bones and the cats also had some of them. I pick out the nicest ones for them. They like spines and huge marrow bones.



Thank you! 

just out of interest what slaughterhouse do you go to?


----------



## fenwoman

freekygeeky said:


> Thank you!
> 
> just out of interest what slaughterhouse do you go to?


N V Gagens of Gorefield.
I went to ask when my goats would be ready for collection and decided to get some of their pork and sausages while I was there. They always ask if I want to take a sack of bones too. Been going there for the last 20 years.


----------



## freekygeeky

fenwoman said:


> N V Gagens of Gorefield.
> I went to ask when my goats would be ready for collection and decided to get some of their pork and sausages while I was there. They always ask if I want to take a sack of bones too. Been going there for the last 20 years.


i see!!
shame they are too far away from me


----------



## Ssthisto

fenwoman said:


> So you too have read all the websites telling you that milk is bad for cats?
> I have kepts a large number of cats for a large number of years (I'm very very old). I've also kept goats. All of my cats line up when I come in from milking and start miowing, telling me to hurry up and splosh milk into their dish....If nobody ever ready the websites telling you that cats are lactose intolerant, and everyone gave their cats milk,I wonder what would happen?


But doesn't goat's milk have less lactose and less alpha S1 casein in it than cow's milk (which is what I've read is bad for cats - not "milk" but specifically "cow's milk")? I know that I can't drink cow's milk without digestive upsets (especially skim or semi-skim) but goat's milk is just fine.


----------



## Frogmad

fenwoman said:


> So you too have read all the websites telling you that milk is bad for cats?
> I have kepts a large number of cats for a large number of years (I'm very very old). I've also kept goats. All of my cats line up when I come in from milking and start miowing, telling me to hurry up and splosh milk into their dish.
> The dogs are the same.
> Even this new abused cat Tabitha now has milk and loves it.
> If nobody ever ready the websites telling you that cats are lactose intolerant, and everyone gave their cats milk,I wonder what would happen?
> Perhaps the only cats to have a reaction to milk are ones who's owners have read that they shouldn't have it?:lol2:


No I'm actually going off a lot of veterinary research, i have to say my cats havent reacted when they have had a bit of milk in the bottom of my cereal bowl but as a general rule they shouldn't have bowls of cows milk and i have seen many cats and dogs that have reacted quite a bit and owners then cut out milk and hey presto their probs have cleared up.

i'm not saying they dont love it but it just aint all that good for them...bit like fast food for us humans!!! but if you choose to ignore and ridicule veterinary research then thats up to you:lol2:


----------



## fenwoman

freekygeeky said:


> i see!!
> shame they are too far away from me


 There see. If only you lived in a proper house with room for a freezer you could not only buy landywoods meat at half the price you're paying now, but get lovely locally grown meat and free bones.


----------



## fenwoman

Ssthisto said:


> But doesn't goat's milk have less lactose and less alpha S1 casein in it than cow's milk (which is what I've read is bad for cats - not "milk" but specifically "cow's milk")? I know that I can't drink cow's milk without digestive upsets (especially skim or semi-skim) but goat's milk is just fine.


 Dunno. It could be I suppose. I know I feel queasy if I drink cow's milk.


----------



## fenwoman

Frogmad said:


> No I'm actually going off a lot of veterinary research, i have to say my cats havent reacted when they have had a bit of milk in the bottom of my cereal bowl but as a general rule they shouldn't have bowls of cows milk and i have seen many cats and dogs that have reacted quite a bit and owners then cut out milk and hey presto their probs have cleared up.
> 
> i'm not saying they dont love it but it just aint all that good for them...bit like fast food for us humans!!! but if you choose to ignore and ridicule veterinary research then thats up to you:lol2:


How many cat and dog owners have you seen and in what capacity?Are you a dietician or a vet'? What sort of reaction did it cause?
You see, I am talking from a standpoint of over 30 years keeping dogs in numbers more than 5 at a time (currently 18) and cats more than 5 at a time (currently around 12) and not once in all those years and all those cats and dogs, getting fresh warm milk at least once per day, has there ever been any kind of reaction. Now you would imagine with those numbers of animals and years, I would have seen some kind of reaction if it actually was as bad as people make out wouldn't you?
It is nothing like fast food since fast food is high in fat, salt and overprocessed ingredients with high calories and little nutritional value.Milk is in fact a valuable food source. If you want to tell me that milk is not necessary to a weaned animal I would counter the argument by mentioning that us humans use it as part of our own diet.
I am not ignoring, nor ridiculing. I am asking you to quantify your statement with fact so that I can weigh it against actual experience and come to a conclusion.


----------



## Frogmad

I am a veterinary nurse with over 11 years experience, I also work with some of the top vets in the country at one of the biggest referral practices including 2 highly regarded gastro intestinal specialists. I have been to many discussions on the matter and read quite a few research papers on it as well.

The main problem is diarrohea, it can be little to severe, obviously if the diarrohea is severe and lasts a long time it can lead to malnutrition and weight loss due to the fact the food is not in the system long enough for the body to absorb the nutrients it requires. 

Like I mentioned my cats havent had problems themselves but I dont give them bowls of cows milk for the simple reason I dont actually have it that often myself - i dont need it. I have however seen it on many occasions throughout the years.

The reason your animals haven't had any probs might be as someone mentioned before that goats milk contains less lactose i honestly cant comment on that.


----------



## fenwoman

Frogmad said:


> I am a veterinary nurse with over 11 years experience, I also work with some of the top vets in the country at one of the biggest referral practices including 2 highly regarded gastro intestinal specialists. I have been to many discussions on the matter and read quite a few research papers on it as well.
> 
> The main problem is diarrohea, it can be little to severe, obviously if the diarrohea is severe and lasts a long time it can lead to malnutrition and weight loss due to the fact the food is not in the system long enough for the body to absorb the nutrients it requires.
> 
> Like I mentioned my cats havent had problems themselves but I dont give them bowls of cows milk for the simple reason I dont actually have it that often myself - i dont need it. I have however seen it on many occasions throughout the years.
> 
> The reason your animals haven't had any probs might be as someone mentioned before that goats milk contains less lactose i honestly cant comment on that.


 I don't give cows milk either. I don't keep cattle only goats. Hence my saying that all my animals had a big bowl of fresh goats milk daily. To which you replied that milk was very bad for anuimals and should never be given.
I don't use bought in milk from cows for purely ethical reasons.However in the past I have given my cats warm diluted evaporated milk and again, this had no adverse effect on any of them. When I have done something for nearly 3 decades with scores of animals, then get told I'm doing it all wrong and what I am doing is causing them harm, I tend to treat the person telling me that, like a bit of a numbnuts.

I shall shortly have to change over to evap' again as my sole milking nanny is now being dried off in preparation for her kidding this year.I shall go over to soya milk. Once all 4 nannies have kidded this year, there will once again be a glut and what doesn't go for the house, butter and cheese making and of course to rear the 2 pigs, will go to the cats and dogs as usual with anything left over being frozen or given to the chickens , or more specifically, the young cockerels to help fatten them.
So I guess, milk is bad for cats and dogs if they don't live with me, when it becomes good for them and helps them live good long lives.


----------



## Frogmad

fenwoman said:


> I don't give cows milk either. I don't keep cattle only goats. Hence my saying that all my animals had a big bowl of fresh goats milk daily. To which you replied that milk was very bad for anuimals and should never be given.
> I don't use bought in milk from cows for purely ethical reasons.However in the past I have given my cats warm diluted evaporated milk and again, this had no adverse effect on any of them. When I have done something for nearly 3 decades with scores of animals, then get told I'm doing it all wrong and what I am doing is causing them harm, I tend to treat the person telling me that, like a bit of a numbnuts.
> 
> I shall shortly have to change over to evap' again as my sole milking nanny is now being dried off in preparation for her kidding this year.I shall go over to soya milk. Once all 4 nannies have kidded this year, there will once again be a glut and what doesn't go for the house, butter and cheese making and of course to rear the 2 pigs, will go to the cats and dogs as usual with anything left over being frozen or given to the chickens , or more specifically, the young cockerels to help fatten them.
> So I guess, milk is bad for cats and dogs if they don't live with me, when it becomes good for them and helps them live good long lives.


If you look back all but the first of my posts says COWS milk it is your posts that generally say just milk not quantifying where the source of that milk is. 
If you want to think that I am a numbnuts because i ahve 11 yrs experience of seeing more animals in one week than you have kept over the years and working with 2 of the best GI vets in the country, thats absolutely fine but to be honest i dont come on here to be insulted I have just given proven veterinary advice.
I also said many but not all cats were lactose intolerant.


----------



## fenwoman

Frogmad said:


> If you look back all but the first of my posts says COWS milk it is your posts that generally say just milk not quantifying where the source of that milk is.
> If you want to think that I am a numbnuts because i ahve 11 yrs experience of seeing more animals in one week than you have kept over the years and working with 2 of the best GI vets in the country, thats absolutely fine but to be honest i dont come on here to be insulted I have just given proven veterinary advice.
> I also said many but not all cats were lactose intolerant.


 I suppose I am used to people on here knowing that I keep goats. 
I'm sure that as a vet nurse, you will be privy to all the cat and dog owners feeding regimes, all the diagnoses and are able to come to a balanced opinion on the subject of giving milk. I mean, it's not as though the only animals with milk related problems you see will be those with a problems will it....oops. oh yes it will won't it?
So you see a few animals with milk intolerances. Not sure how many exactly as you haven't said. And of course you have no idea how many thousands if not millions of cats and dogs drink milk and have no problem.
I bow to your obviously superior knowledge and greater experience on the subject.:notworthy:
I'll carry on doing what I do in the meantime because my cats and dogs love fresh milk daily and do not have any problems with it. As you say though, it is only 18 dogs and 12 cats so no great number at all really.

Oh and BTW, as a mere vet' nurse, you are not qualified nor allowed to offer veterinary advice.


----------



## Frogmad

fenwoman said:


> I suppose I am used to people on here knowing that I keep goats.
> I'm sure that as a vet nurse, you will be privy to all the cat and dog owners feeding regimes, all the diagnoses and are able to come to a balanced opinion on the subject of giving milk. I mean, it's not as though the only animals with milk related problems you see will be those with a problems will it....oops. oh yes it will won't it?
> So you see a few animals with milk intolerances. Not sure how many exactly as you haven't said. And of course you have no idea how many thousands if not millions of cats and dogs drink milk and have no problem.
> I bow to your obviously superior knowledge and greater experience on the subject.:notworthy:
> I'll carry on doing what I do in the meantime because my cats and dogs love fresh milk daily and do not have any problems with it. As you say though, it is only 18 dogs and 12 cats so no great number at all really.
> 
> Oh and BTW, as a mere vet' nurse, you are not qualified nor allowed to offer veterinary advice.


I think you will find that i am qualified and allowed to offer veterinary advice just not allowed to diagnose problems! I should know!:Na_Na_Na_Na:
you try to come across as high and mighty, try and listen to other people as there are other views out there yours is not the only opinion and therefore is not always the right opinion.
Once again you have stooped low enough to insult me, it aint big or clever and as the better person i am going to step away from this subject before i stoop to your level and start insulting you :whistling2:


----------



## fenwoman

Frogmad said:


> I think you will find that i am qualified and allowed to offer veterinary advice just not allowed to diagnose problems! I should know!:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> you try to come across as high and mighty, try and listen to other people as there are other views out there yours is not the only opinion and therefore is not always the right opinion.
> Once again you have stooped low enough to insult me, it aint big or clever and as the better person i am going to step away from this subject before i stoop to your level and start insulting you :whistling2:


 Just so that I can be absolutely clear here, could you point out where I insulted you? I have read and re-read my posts and cannot see anything which was insulting. Sarcastic yes, but not insulting. Help me to become a better person by pointing out the insulst as I am unable to see them.


----------



## dragons jen

My friend has just recieved a book she bought off some Australian web site on feeding raw foods to dogs and inside she found about 4 sheets of printed paper with the heading "Balanced Diet for Dingos in Captivity". She bought it round for me to read yesterday and it's facinating.

Here are some of the basics:

"The average sized dog (Dingo) needs a meal the size of a large rabbit daily. By this I mean a whole rabbit, skin guts the lot. Myself, I won't take wild rabbits during the breeding months to ensure they are available in sufficient numbers for next year. Any surplus rabbits taken in the winter are gutted, diced withthe skin and bone and frozen to carry me through the summer."

" When it comes to feeding the frozen rabbits in the summer then obviously I need to make up for the missing guts. This is really simple. Just picture the rabbit. You can get two fists in it's body cavity, one for internal organs (heart, lungs, liver etc) the other for it's digestional tract (this usually full with partially digested fruit, vegiges, grasses etc). All that needs doing is to replace what is missing. I feed a weekly meal of a mixture of heart, liver and kidneys, then add a couple of good handfulls of very finely minced fruit and veggies to this as well as to any other meat meals."

"Although rabbit is a good staple it has very little fat content. Because of this I only feed it every other day. The remaining weekly meals are made up from meat trimmings (about 1lb per dog) from a couple of local butchers together with the veggie mix. All members of the dog family get just as much nourishment from an animals body fat as they do from pure muscle meat and these trimmings are fine so long as they are not fed everyday but alternated with good lean rabbit meat."

"The other important part of the diet is fresh bone. A rabbit is about 30% bone, plus a wild dog, never being on to turn down an easy meal, will pick up bones from road kill or animals that have died naturally. I give my captive dogs an extra bone ration every three days or so. This is rib bones or poultry carcases, each dog having one or two carcases or half a dozen lamb or pork ribs (the bits the butcher can't sell)."

"All dogs need some form of fiber in their diet. In the wild they get this from the contents of the prey animals stomach and also the pelt (skin and fur). If for any reason I am unable to feed whole rabbit, I replace the fiber they would get from the pelt wirh a couple of good handfulls of boiled brown rice."

"Apart from the basic diet I usually add something of a treat every few days, but these treats are things they would get through eating a prey animal in the wild. A tablespoon of honey, natural yogurt or curd cheese(to replicate half digested milk in a young prey animals digestive tract), eggs and the odd bit of waste from my own table (Dingos will scavenge from bins given the chance). I also like to add a 50/50 mix of alfalfa powder and seaweed powder which I keep in a flour shaker and give a good sprinkle everyday."

He really does make it sound so simple!


----------



## freekygeeky

since putting up that the cats poos arent what they used to be.. i have fed them an egg each (bar ginger) everyday.. and had water avaliable...
now they still arent pooing much and its still very solid.. anything else i could do?


----------



## Ssthisto

Stupid as it might sound, Freekygeeky... do they appear to be having any trouble or discomfort when they poo?

Maybe you're just used to the over-inflated "look, we're feeding carnivores on grain they can't properly digest" poo that commercial cat food produces, and the cats are now doing poo that's completely appropriate for the diet they're eating?


----------



## freekygeeky

Ssthisto said:


> Stupid as it might sound, Freekygeeky... do they appear to be having any trouble or discomfort when they poo?
> 
> Maybe you're just used to the over-inflated "look, we're feeding carnivores on grain they can't properly digest" poo that commercial cat food produces, and the cats are now doing poo that's completely appropriate for the diet they're eating?


havent seen them do their poos unfotunatly. but maybe i have only ever seen semi runny poos...maybe for once i am seeing a normal poo, which im not usedto? hmph


----------



## welsh_lady21

Ive just started looking into this diet for my Beagle. I've seen they make minces, i was just wandering if you can just feed the minces and some bones but i dont fancy whole rabbits n stuff :lol2:


----------



## fenwoman

welsh_lady21 said:


> Ive just started looking into this diet for my Beagle. I've seen they make minces, i was just wandering if you can just feed the minces and some bones but i dont fancy whole rabbits n stuff :lol2:



If you don't fancy feeding BARF properly, perhaps you should stick to kibble. BARF is no good for squeamish people. The whole point is that they need the fibre from the bones and fur and all the reast of the carcase. Feeding nice clean mince which doesn't look like a dead animal is just a cop out.
You might just as well feed tinned food and biscuit with the occasional bone as a treat.


----------



## welsh_lady21

fenwoman said:


> If you don't fancy feeding BARF properly, perhaps you should stick to kibble. BARF is no good for squeamish people. The whole point is that they need the fibre from the bones and fur and all the reast of the carcase. Feeding nice clean mince which doesn't look like a dead animal is just a cop out.
> You might just as well feed tinned food and biscuit with the occasional bone as a treat.


Ahhh ok  I think we're gonna go with the dry food option. Thanks tho! Im not squeamish just no idea where to get these things :lol2:


----------



## fenwoman

welsh_lady21 said:


> Ahhh ok  I think we're gonna go with the dry food option. Thanks tho! Im not squeamish just no idea where to get these things :lol2:


 Ahh well I'm sure someone could have helped you to source them if you had wanted to go that route. It is a pretty intensive way to feed though and requires some effort and thought. Leaving a bowl of kibble down all day is by far the easiest way to do things.However even that can be mucked up by for example adding tinned food to it. Complete food is complete food, anything added simply messes up the balance of nutrition. If people want to feed tinned food, they need to add a mixer instead of using a complete diet as a mixer.
Ideally to feed BARF you would also need freezer space, if not to store whole carcase, but to get a good selection of the mices which ideally wouldn't come from a pet shop but from someone like landywoods and which has chciken mince which inclused minced bone, and they also do chicken carcases and wings, turkey neck and the like so that the dog actually gets the nutrients it needs. BARF is not just about feeding your dog raw mince and the occasional bone, it tries to emulate the diet a wild carnivore would get.
It's a brilliant way to feed dogs, but is fairly intensive and to be honest with humans passion for feeding easy peasy no effort ready meals and take aways to themselves, I can see that kibble would be on a par.


----------



## dragons jen

I've just switched to BARF and I don't find it any trouble at all, just a case of getting into a routine, and not forgetting to take the meat out the freezer :whistling2:. I do the veg once a week, weigh out the meat, bag them up in portions and bung them in the freezer.

I've been lucky enough to find a local gamekeeper who butchers venison and he is keeping me all the bones and other bits he can't use, heads, hoof end of leg and the odd bit of skin. He also keeps me the Pheasant carcases. He only takes the breasts off, so I just skin them, to save having feathers everywhere, and take out any unwanted bits from inside.


----------



## Esarosa

Wow pheasant and venison. What posh doggies you have :razz:


----------



## fenwoman

dragons jen said:


> I've just switched to BARF and I don't find it any trouble at all, just a case of getting into a routine, and not forgetting to take the meat out the freezer :whistling2:. I do the veg once a week, weigh out the meat, bag them up in portions and bung them in the freezer.
> 
> I've been lucky enough to find a local gamekeeper who butchers venison and he is keeping me all the bones and other bits he can't use, heads, hoof end of leg and the odd bit of skin. He also keeps me the Pheasant carcases. He only takes the breasts off, so I just skin them, to save having feathers everywhere, and take out any unwanted bits from inside.


 what bits inside a pheasant are unwanted? My lot get the lot including the feathers and whatever is inside too.


----------



## dragons jen

I was told to take out anything that might have food in it, like paunching a rabbit, but if I don't need to it saves me a messy job!

And my dog IS very posh, well he will be once I've finished grooming him!!


----------



## fenwoman

dragons jen said:


> I was told to take out anything that might have food in it, like paunching a rabbit, but if I don't need to it saves me a messy job!
> 
> And my dog IS very posh, well he will be once I've finished grooming him!!


 My lot always get whole carcase. I feed them my surplus bantam cockerels and all I do is neck and chuck. They eat the lot. When I'm doing a big cockerel for my dinner, I cut off head, feet and then gut and the dogs get that.
As I tell people , in the wild, there is no little hedge fairy to jump out on a kill and stop the animal from eating everything until she has filleted the thing and taken out 'unwanted bits' 

The only thing is that you do have to have a proper worming regime in place if you feed whole carcase. I worm every 3-4 months anyway as I live closely with my animals and several also sleep in or on my bed. However I horrified at the amount of dog owners, good , loving and caring ones at that, who rarely worm their dogs. Some as infrequently as only once a year. Well why bother at all then? It horrifies me because often the dog is part of a family where there are children , and while I'm not a clean freak, having children playing with dogs who are probably infested with roundworms, the larvae of which can blind them, and the possibility of the children getting tapeworm segments on their hands and getting them in their mouths to infest them with tapeworms is shocking to me.
Feeding whole carcase is a good way to get the brain in gear about worming more frequently.Especially if you feed wild rabbits as I do.

As for posh dogs, I too have posh dogs. I also have one who is not only posh, but done TV appearances and is rare. HRH the Princess Katie Pumpkin, my Tibetan spaniel.


----------



## dragons jen

Very true, I'll just "chuck" from now on!!

I agree with the regular worming, especially when there are children in the house. All mine are done every 4 months. Like yours some of ours sleep on the bed.

Our Lurcher Bundy has done a couple of commercials for T.V. One for British Gas telephones about 8 or 9 years ago, which was shown nationwide, and one for a project for the homeless in Scotland. So he is a posh dog too. That's 2 posh dogs in our house, 1 who eats venison and pheasant and 1 who's a T.V. star:lol2:


----------



## FoxyMumma

fenwoman said:


> My lot always get whole carcase. I feed them my surplus bantam cockerels and all I do is neck and chuck. They eat the lot. When I'm doing a big cockerel for my dinner, I cut off head, feet and then gut and the dogs get that.
> As I tell people , in the wild, there is no little hedge fairy to jump out on a kill and stop the animal from eating everything until she has filleted the thing and taken out 'unwanted bits'
> 
> The only thing is that you do have to have a proper worming regime in place if you feed whole carcase. I worm every 3-4 months anyway as I live closely with my animals and several also sleep in or on my bed. However I horrified at the amount of dog owners, good , loving and caring ones at that, who rarely worm their dogs. Some as infrequently as only once a year. Well why bother at all then? It horrifies me because often the dog is part of a family where there are children , and while I'm not a clean freak, having children playing with dogs who are probably infested with roundworms, the larvae of which can blind them, and the possibility of the children getting tapeworm segments on their hands and getting them in their mouths to infest them with tapeworms is shocking to me.
> Feeding whole carcase is a good way to get the brain in gear about worming more frequently.Especially if you feed wild rabbits as I do.
> 
> As for posh dogs, I too have posh dogs. I also have one who is not only posh, but done TV appearances and is rare. HRH the Princess Katie Pumpkin, my Tibetan spaniel.





dragons jen said:


> Very true, I'll just "chuck" from now on!!
> 
> I agree with the regular worming, especially when there are children in the house. All mine are done every 4 months. Like yours some of ours sleep on the bed.
> 
> Our Lurcher Bundy has done a couple of commercials for T.V. One for British Gas telephones about 8 or 9 years ago, which was shown nationwide, and one for a project for the homeless in Scotland. So he is a posh dog too. That's 2 posh dogs in our house, 1 who eats venison and pheasant and 1 who's a T.V. star:lol2:


 
Ooooo check you two out with your TV star doggies... My Lexi will be on Tv soon I should think shes got star quality has my Lexi... She will be on 'Most Wanted' 'CrimeStoppers' and more than likely 'jerry springer' with the title 'my next door neightbour is nuts and lets her dogs maul her in her back garden :whistling2::Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2: so watch out for a Great lump of a rottie getting a ASBO lol

But what you said about worming is very true Fennie! an aquaintance of mine cant be arsed to worm his two dogs, because he deems it a 'waste of beer money' :bash: He shouldnt have dogs in the first place TBH.
Mine get 'drontalled' 3 monthly I just wouldnt like to run the risk, plus I have 3 moggies running around the house too.

We have got phesant for din dins tomorrow yippee, so dogs and cats are in for some yummys later when I skin and gut them :2thumb:


----------



## fuzzielady

Phew huge and very interesting thread. Certainly worth the reading. Thank you. You have answered a lot of questions, which is why I read it all before posting, so most of my questions are already answered.

I have thought about changing my dogs to barf for a couple of years. Never knew exactly how to do it though. Was scared incase I didn't provide them with a balanced diet. I spend between £80 and £120 a month, feeding 3 rotties and a springer, on Burns holistic food. I changed to that a while ago as my big man gets problems with his ear canals and chews his paws. Also I have a rott bitch that I can't keep weight on. The muscles on her back legs would make a staffy jealous. She is really highly strung and normal complete meals made her worse. She has calmed a bit between the burns and training/mental stimulation, she also had a lot of behavioural problems before I got her. I really hate to see an overweight dog but my bitch takes lean to a whole new level. I now have her to a reasonable weight and would hate for her to drop it again. I read on this thread that barf keeps them nice and lean. In her case would it be likely to make her lose weight again?? At the moment she is on the one Burns make to put weight on. Even at that though she gets the same as my big man and my springer put together. Would I be able to adapt her diet so it includes higher protein foods? Or would this make her more prone to future problems like a high protein complete food would do?


----------



## dragons jen

I have recently changed my Springer onto a raw food diet. Like your Rottie we had a hell of a job keeping weight on him. Once we changed him he became a different dog. We've actually just come back from the vets after his yearly booster and the vet has told me he is in, and I quote, "outstanding" condition. 
Before changing him to raw food we tried so many different foods for him, including special veterinary diets, but everything just went straight through him, no laughing matter as he lives in a kennel which used to need scrubbing from top to bottom every day!
With a raw food diet there is very little in it that the dog can't digest, therefore less poo. I have also noticed that his coat is becoming more glossy, he is more controlable and his breath smells lovely and sweet.
I would never go back to "commercial" food for him again. I know it takes a bit more thought to get the food ready every day, but I do veg in bulk and freeze it into portions, weigh out his meat into portions etc. so all I need to do is grab the bags out of the freezer every morning.


----------



## fenwoman

fuzzielady said:


> Phew huge and very interesting thread. Certainly worth the reading. Thank you. You have answered a lot of questions, which is why I read it all before posting, so most of my questions are already answered.
> 
> I have thought about changing my dogs to barf for a couple of years. Never knew exactly how to do it though. Was scared incase I didn't provide them with a balanced diet. I spend between £80 and £120 a month, feeding 3 rotties and a springer, on Burns holistic food. I changed to that a while ago as my big man gets problems with his ear canals and chews his paws. Also I have a rott bitch that I can't keep weight on. The muscles on her back legs would make a staffy jealous. She is really highly strung and normal complete meals made her worse. She has calmed a bit between the burns and training/mental stimulation, she also had a lot of behavioural problems before I got her. I really hate to see an overweight dog but my bitch takes lean to a whole new level. I now have her to a reasonable weight and would hate for her to drop it again. I read on this thread that barf keeps them nice and lean. In her case would it be likely to make her lose weight again?? At the moment she is on the one Burns make to put weight on. Even at that though she gets the same as my big man and my springer put together. Would I be able to adapt her diet so it includes higher protein foods? Or would this make her more prone to future problems like a high protein complete food would do?


 Yes you would be able to adapt the diet to suit each dog.
So if you needed to feed less protein and a more fatty meat for the bitch, you could feed tripe. And then use say heart or other meat for the male.
The problem with complete foods, even so called high quality ones, they are grain based and have to have stabilizers and additives to ensure a shelf life. Raw is way more natural and they absorb more nutrients and less additives.
I have 18 dogs of all ages, both sexes and ranging from a Rottie X Newf, to a geriatric teeny tiny yorkie bitch. She came to me in a poor condition with stinking breath and firlthy teeth. Now she has a smashing coat, her breath don't stink and her teeth are clean.


----------



## fuzzielady

fenwoman said:


> Yes you would be able to adapt the diet to suit each dog.
> So if you needed to feed less protein and a more fatty meat for the bitch, you could feed tripe. And then use say heart or other meat for the male.
> The problem with complete foods, even so called high quality ones, they are grain based and have to have stabilizers and additives to ensure a shelf life. Raw is way more natural and they absorb more nutrients and less additives.
> I have 18 dogs of all ages, both sexes and ranging from a Rottie X Newf, to a geriatric teeny tiny yorkie bitch. She came to me in a poor condition with stinking breath and firlthy teeth. Now she has a smashing coat, her breath don't stink and her teeth are clean.


 
I have been really impressed with the food they are on. It is better than most of the commercial foods but the fact it has to last on a shelf means it has things in it I would rather my dogs didn't get. 

I have pm'd labman asking for a copy of the e book so will digest that and start from there.

Oh when you first start feeding barf I take it it would be better to separate dogs until food is gone? I presume they get better when they get used to getting bones regularly?


----------



## fenwoman

fuzzielady said:


> I have been really impressed with the food they are on. It is better than most of the commercial foods but the fact it has to last on a shelf means it has things in it I would rather my dogs didn't get.
> 
> I have pm'd labman asking for a copy of the e book so will digest that and start from there.
> 
> Oh when you first start feeding barf I take it it would be better to separate dogs until food is gone? I presume they get better when they get used to getting bones regularly?


 I presume your dogs are food aggressive? If son, perhaps you should first try leaving kibble down 24/7 and feeding ad lib. I recommend this a lot to people with several dogs in order to reduce food aggression. Something which is there all the time becomes less valuable and not worth fighting over. They may overeat initially but after a week or so, they go back to eating normally. My lot have kibble available always even though they also have raw meat etc. It just means that they never regard food as something worth fighting over as they are never hungry.


----------



## fuzzielady

fenwoman said:


> I presume your dogs are food aggressive? If son, perhaps you should first try leaving kibble down 24/7 and feeding ad lib. I recommend this a lot to people with several dogs in order to reduce food aggression. Something which is there all the time becomes less valuable and not worth fighting over. They may overeat initially but after a week or so, they go back to eating normally. My lot have kibble available always even though they also have raw meat etc. It just means that they never regard food as something worth fighting over as they are never hungry.


Not a such but my 4 yr old will chance her luck if they have bones. To be honest though because of this I separate them if they have them so not really got a chance to get better. If I am up the reservoir they sometimes come across various animal parts and she hasn't bothered if they go sniff too. They will all walk away too if I tell them to leave it. She was originally a stray so I think she had just got used to limited food and having to scavenge


----------



## fuzzielady

Can't really leave food down as I foster so have different dogs here a lot


----------



## fenwoman

fuzzielady said:


> Not a such but my 4 yr old will chance her luck if they have bones. To be honest though because of this I separate them if they have them so not really got a chance to get better. If I am up the reservoir they sometimes come across various animal parts and she hasn't bothered if they go sniff too. They will all walk away too if I tell them to leave it. She was originally a stray so I think she had just got used to limited food and having to scavenge


 ahhh. There are a couple of pointers here. Firstly is the 4 year old the top one in the pack? Is she spayed? If she is the top, under you of course, then she has first dibs on everything.
Secondly, when feeding bones, there should always be one per dog, plus 2 spare. There will always be one who wants them all or who is dominant and will drive the lesser one away from hers or his. By having 2 spare it means there there is no reason to defend, the lesser dog can just move off to another bone. Hence I get a whole sack full and tip the lot on the floor. Even with 18 dogs and one who wants them all, when she sits on her own little bone mountain, there are still plenty left to share :lol2:
What happened in her past is in her past. The fact that she once was a stray and once maybe didn't have enough to eat, have zero bearing on her life now presuming that she has kibble available at all times. Dogs generally don't keep harking back to previous lives or bad times. Only us humans do that.
Depending on the pack dynamics (number of dogs, ages and sexes, plus neutered or not) you can get them to eat without fighting. In fact, most times dogs won't fight, just the owners are terrified that they might and won't even allow them to interact as a healthy pack should. Seperating them at mealtimes isn't condusive to good pack cohesion. As I said, you could start by feeding a kibble ad-lib. If you are alos giving BARF it doesn't even have to be a wonderfully expensive kibble. Mine get the cheapest I can find which doesn't make them poo for england. Currently Awkrights or Dr John's Silver label, only 18% protein (for my oldies and to prevent them being hyperactive) which sell at around £8 a sack.Plain coloured, no frills decent grub. Don't forget , dogs, as a species evolved to survive and thrive on pretty low quality food. They will and do eat carrion, veggies, other animals poo etc and come to no harm on it.
If you can find a decent butcher with a good supply of bones, ask him for a huge bag full. A lot will depend on whether the butcher does his own cutting or whether (like Dewhursts and the other chains) thei get cut in a central depot and sent to the shops already jointed which means there won't be much waste in terms of bones. Small independant butchers who cut and filet their own carcasses are the ones to ask for bones from. I don't pay, they have to pay for waste to be disposed of and it's expensive so you are doing them a favour.
It might mean some ferreting about to find out where the best butchers are, but t can be done. Bones also freeze well and dogs seem to love an icy bone in hot weather.
For anyone wanting to feed BARF I would say, invest in the biggest freezer you can. It'll make life easier and save you money. You can buy a good range of stuff from Landywood Pet Foods : Price List
shove it in the freezer and it is easier than opening a can, to take out what you need for the following day and defrost in a sealed container. This latter especially the case if you feed tripe which stinks a bit. Incidentally, tripe will make shiny coats, and isn't very high in proetin and will help keep weight on a dog who tends to thinness. Fresh tripe will smell of cow poop but a clean smell with nothing rancid or bad. I have been more than happy with everything landywoods have supplied to me both freshness wise, price wise and quality wise.
Don't be put off by the smell of green tripe, your dogs will love the stuff and if you want to feed BARF, you need to not be pernickity about things. You can add a wholemeal terrier meal or chopped veggies or cooked rice or potatoes and perhaps a supplement if you feel the need or if you have a sick dog or one in pup. I have used SA37 for the past 30 years not only on the dogs, but the cats too and I swear by the stuff. It smells like brewers yeast which seems to be a smell which cats and dogs love.
I have been feeding a varied diet for the last 35 years, not pure BARF but not pure kibble either. A mixture of the 2 really, to give them variety and ensure that they never get fussy. Which isn't likely to happen with so many.


----------



## fuzzielady

fenwoman said:


> ahhh. There are a couple of pointers here. Firstly is the 4 year old the top one in the pack? Is she spayed? If she is the top, under you of course, then she has first dibs on everything.
> Secondly, when feeding bones, there should always be one per dog, plus 2 spare. There will always be one who wants them all or who is dominant and will drive the lesser one away from hers or his. By having 2 spare it means there there is no reason to defend, the lesser dog can just move off to another bone. Hence I get a whole sack full and tip the lot on the floor. Even with 18 dogs and one who wants them all, when she sits on her own little bone mountain, there are still plenty left to share :lol2:
> What happened in her past is in her past. The fact that she once was a stray and once maybe didn't have enough to eat, have zero bearing on her life now presuming that she has kibble available at all times. Dogs generally don't keep harking back to previous lives or bad times. Only us humans do that.


I did a big long reply then lost so here goes again:bash:

All my dogs are neutered. My springer (Louie) is top of the dogs. My 4yr old (Josie) is more opportunistic than top. Over the last 6months Misty (2yr old) has taken top bitch position. Josie ended up in the pound, pregnant. They labelled her food aggressive. I got her once her pups were weaned. When I first got her she would jump at Louie barking to get him to leave his food so she could eat his first. She also used to be really greedy with treats, she used to nip the tips of your fingers when taking it. Now she will walk past full bowls of food without a murmer. Won't even take hers until told to do so. She once left her bone and attacked Louie for his. I have not given them bones since(was 2 yrs ago). Recently when up the reservoir she has sniffed a deer's leg, alongside the other dogs, without a problem. They will all also leave it on command. I don't think there should be a problem now I suppose I'm just warey "just incase" 2 extra bones is a great idea. I could just imagine Josie sitting on a pile of bones saying (they're mine, all mine):lol2:


----------



## fuzzielady

I contacted Landywoods yesterday. They do a main drop in Scotland once a month:2thumb: Just need to find another freezer now:lol2:


----------



## lola

One of mine is on a Natures Menu complete raw meat/veg/rice diet - their frozen nuggets : http://naturesmenu.co.uk/ because when she came to me she had really bad skin and was underweight - now her skin is great and there's a solid little body under it!!

I just cannot believe - on reading most of this (not all, I'll re-read it again when Im more awake!) that I've missed the most obvious natural meat source..... the roadside larder.... for heaven's sake I just never even thought about it !!!! well - from now on I'll be eyes down whenever I'm out & about haha!!


----------



## diamondlil

My new puppy is loving her raw food! I collected her on Saturday, having got in a box of the food she was weaned on, Bakers puppy complete. I was going to change her over gradually but seeing the hideous squidgy poos she was producing I gave her a lamb's heart that evening and we're off to a flying start. 
A chicken wing portion puzzled her the next morning until I cut a few slashes in it, then her little tail was unstoppable as she got stuck in. Beef heart and lamb neck have also been eagerly eaten. 
The poo today was nice and firm, and I'll get her a bigger bone to last longer and help her leave the coffee table legs alone.
As my old girl Ellie (RIP) was an adult before I converted her to raw bones, starting a puppy on raw is a whole new experience I'm looking forwards to.
My friend's red setters are a good advert for why I'm so keen on raw.


----------



## lola

Just a thought - I get frozen day old chicks for some of my other critters - is there any reason why I shouldn't give my dogs these - thawed - as a treat every now & then??


----------



## freekygeeky

lola said:


> Just a thought - I get frozen day old chicks for some of my other critters - is there any reason why I shouldn't give my dogs these - thawed - as a treat every now & then??


when i get to a shop that sells them, my cats will be getting one a weeeeeeeeeek


----------



## FoxyMumma

lola said:


> Just a thought - I get frozen day old chicks for some of my other critters - is there any reason why I shouldn't give my dogs these - thawed - as a treat every now & then??


I throw my dogs and cats a couple every now and then when im rumaging through the freezer for snake food lol, they even get mice/rats that the snakes have decided they dont want rather than throwing them away, so long as theyre no longer than 12hrs out of the freezer :2thumb:


----------



## FoxyMumma

freekygeeky said:


> when i get to a shop that sells them, my cats will be getting one a weeeeeeeeeek


Order online? much cheaper hun : victory:


----------



## FoxyMumma

Anyone order through landywoods? just wondering if its all done by phone or if I can email it through? :whistling2: also is the quality good? just wanted to get more of a supply coming in as my butcher isnt always as forthcoming with bones as my two munch lol


----------



## freekygeeky

FoxyMumma said:


> Anyone order through landywoods? just wondering if its all done by phone or if I can email it through? :whistling2: also is the quality good? just wanted to get more of a supply coming in as my butcher isnt always as forthcoming with bones as my two munch lol


fenwoman is your lady


----------



## fuzzielady

For those that think it is expensive to feed barf think again. Landywoods is great. Brilliant prices too. Just got my first order and it cost me £58 for 40lb tripe chunks, 54lb mixed meat with veg, 54lb economy meat 5lb chunked liver and 15-18 huge knuckle marrowbones. Basically more than enough to feed 3 rottweilers and a springer for just over a month plus bones and liver to make liver cake. Compared that to £80 to £120 a month on dog food. :notworthy::notworthy:


----------



## freekygeeky

FoxyMumma said:


> Order online? much cheaper hun : victory:


p.s lol.
i dont have a big freezer just a 3 draw normal one. so its cheaper and easier to by from shops. also i dont have a card where i can buy of the internet  justa cashacrd


----------



## dragons jen

For all those in Lincolnshire, There is a butchers in Ruskington who do excellent quality beef mince at 38p lb and, sometimes, lamb mince, they also do free bones.
Think it's called Wards. Will get full details of my friend.


----------



## dragons jen

Here are the details:

Mel Ward Meats
Church Street 
Ruskington
Tel: 01526 832349

His beef mince is excellent quality, you don't get a puddle of water in the bottom of the bowl like you do with some mince when it has been defrosted. Also, it is free-flow so you can just defrost what you need. It's 38p per lb and comes in 2lb bags.

He also does the following that aren't speciffically for dogs, but the prices aren't bad.

Chicken Wings (5lb bag) 69p lb
Ox liver (5x1lb) 89p lb
Pigs/Ox heart (5x1lb) 79p lb

Boxes of bones are FREE!!!

Delivery is also free! Covers most areas from Lincoln to the East Coast and Louth to Spalding.

Does loads of meat for people too and can e.mail his price list to anyone who's interested. We've just done our first monthly order for us and the dogs. Soooo easy!!!:2thumb:


----------



## welsh_lady21

ooo went to butchers today n got some free bones didnt know i'd get em free!


----------



## Shelley66

Our butcher says he has to pay to get rid of all bones, so he happily gives dog owners them free, which is probably why your butcher gives them free too.

I get raw food for my lot from various different places, butcher, pet shop and supermarket mostly though. You can get some really good bargins in the supermarket if the meat is at its sell by date


----------



## freekygeeky

unfortunatly my vets arent too keen on BARF, but i still use it, and prefer to use it.


----------



## LoveForLizards

freekygeeky said:


> unfortunatly my vets are too keen on BARF, but i still use it, and prefer to use it.


Are or aren't? :lol2:

Alot of vets aren't keen because or they are ignorant. Usually nutrition talks they get (or lack thereof!) are done by Purina, Pedigree and the like. So they are taught that kibble is the way forward.


----------



## freekygeeky

LoveForLizards said:


> Are or aren't? :lol2:
> 
> Alot of vets aren't keen because or they are ignorant. Usually nutrition talks they get (or lack thereof!) are done by Purina, Pedigree and the like. So they are taught that kibble is the way forward.



hehe changed!!

the thing is in the wild, (nto saying they are wild, cos they arent) they wouldnt have dry boring plain bright orange buiscuits ...

anyway, mine had chicks for the first time today actually.
interesting...


----------



## LoveForLizards

freekygeeky said:


> the thing is in the wild, (nto saying they are wild, cos they arent) they wouldnt have dry boring plain bright orange buiscuits ...


Yup, and whilst they aren't wild animals, they still have the digestive system (Carnivorous) of wild cats. :whistling2:


----------



## freekygeeky

LoveForLizards said:


> Yup, and whilst they aren't wild animals, they still have the digestive system (Carnivorous) of wild cats. :whistling2:


and they were all strays, so i say they are wild, hehe


----------



## blackcat38

I did start reading this thread from the beginning but 2 yrs of posts is just too much to read....

A lot of you have said you feed your dogs the raw diet, does anyone feed it to their cats? And what sort of things do you feed? I have 3 cats and wondered if I should try it with them


----------



## freekygeeky

blackcat38 said:


> I did start reading this thread from the beginning but 2 yrs of posts is just too much to read....
> 
> A lot of you have said you feed your dogs the raw diet, does anyone feed it to their cats? And what sort of things do you feed? I have 3 cats and wondered if I should try it with them



me just a few posts up.. lol


----------



## blackcat38

freekygeeky said:


> me just a few posts up.. lol


Sorry I only read a couple of pages up and got the impression the chicks were a treat not that you feed barf entirely. 
What sort of things do you feed and how are they finding it?
I read about your cats lack of drinking; apparently in the wild they wouldn’t drink water next to their pray because of contamination so if you have the water next the food they won’t entertain it. If you move it to another part of the house you might drink more. When my water was next to the food they didn’t touch it, so I moved it upstairs and now all 3 cats drink all the time.


----------



## fuzzielady

Totally converted with the dogs. Best thing I ever did.

For those with cats on it though. If you feed chicken wings etc to your cat. How do you stop it stashing it somewhere for later? Got visions of hunting the whole house to find where horrid smell is coming from:lol2:


----------



## freekygeeky

blackcat38 said:


> Sorry I only read a couple of pages up and got the impression the chicks were a treat not that you feed barf entirely.
> What sort of things do you feed and how are they finding it?
> I read about your cats lack of drinking; apparently in the wild they wouldn’t drink water next to their pray because of contamination so if you have the water next the food they won’t entertain it. If you move it to another part of the house you might drink more. When my water was next to the food they didn’t touch it, so I moved it upstairs and now all 3 cats drink all the time.


they now all drink from the pond, bar tom, he likes the bowl.
mine would get a chick once a week each, if i coudl get there no car at the moment, but yea, they love the chicks!



fuzzielady said:


> Totally converted with the dogs. Best thing I ever did.
> 
> For those with cats on it though. If you feed chicken wings etc to your cat. How do you stop it stashing it somewhere for later? Got visions of hunting the whole house to find where horrid smell is coming from:lol2:


my lot get chicks etc outside! lol they can hide it under a tree , but not under my sofa! lol


----------



## fuzzielady

freekygeeky said:


> my lot get chicks etc outside! lol they can hide it under a tree , but not under my sofa! lol


Hmm she is a house cat about 80% of the time. So I would have to kick her out to feed her. Could be a pain as I want to go totally barf with her. Ah well needs must. I suppose I could put her in a crate when I feed her: victory:


----------



## freekygeeky

fuzzielady said:


> Hmm she is a house cat about 80% of the time. So I would have to kick her out to feed her. Could be a pain as I want to go totally barf with her. Ah well needs must. I suppose I could put her in a crate when I feed her: victory:


or, in the bath? lol
our lot are on BARF 100% 
poor ginger is loosing all his teeth in a couple of weeks, so i will have to just mash everythign up for him!


----------



## fuzzielady

awe poor wee mite


----------



## freekygeeky

fuzzielady said:


> awe poor wee mite


i reall yhope he makes it through the opp though is is getting on a bt now, he is going to hate me the last opp he had he ignored me for about a week after it! look!
by the way, thats his angry face!


----------



## pixie_bex

Ha Ha I love his angry face! :flrt:

Have read the whole thread and im still confused lol I want to put Izzy ( Jack russell ) on this but I am unsure on the amount of food she would need on a daily basis? 

She is on and off different can and dry foods and has been the past year I just cant seem to find one she likes and stays on! I gave her some raw beef last week while I was making stew and she ate it like she hadnt eaten for years lol 

Can she eat pork shoulder? She had some of that yesterday as i was cooking it ( she had it raw) and loved it but as its quite fatty I didnt know if she could have this as part of the BARF diet.. 

Help would be greatly receieved! 

Thanks
Becca


----------



## freekygeeky

pixie_bex said:


> Ha Ha I love his angry face! :flrt:



hehe!


----------



## fenwoman

pixie_bex said:


> Ha Ha I love his angry face! :flrt:
> 
> Have read the whole thread and im still confused lol I want to put Izzy ( Jack russell ) on this but I am unsure on the amount of food she would need on a daily basis?
> 
> She is on and off different can and dry foods and has been the past year I just cant seem to find one she likes and stays on! I gave her some raw beef last week while I was making stew and she ate it like she hadnt eaten for years lol
> 
> Can she eat pork shoulder? She had some of that yesterday as i was cooking it ( she had it raw) and loved it but as its quite fatty I didnt know if she could have this as part of the BARF diet..
> 
> Help would be greatly receieved!
> 
> Thanks
> Becca


 I can offer some advice about how you are feeding at present.
One of the things I tell buyers of my puppies is that you dictate what the dog eats.The dog makes no decisions about it's diet. Humans are supposed to be the more intelligent species after all. By swapping and changing and offering this, that and the other, you make a dog fussy.
The trick is to make the decision as to what you want to feed the dog, then feed only that. No titbits, treats, scraps or anything else between meals. Aftwer all, if it fills itself up on chewy sticks, chocky drops and other rubbish, come mealtime, of course it'll refuse the meal. It's eaten all it needs for that day already.
So, decide on what you want to feed, and offer just that. If the dog doesn't east it one day, then simply it isn't hungry. When it is hungry, it will eat it.
Changing the diet yet again to BARF won't stop your dog from being a picky eater. It knows that all it has to do is refuse to eat for a couple of days and you'll be scurrying about like a headless chicken offering it this and that, a bit of chicken, ham, treats etc in a desperate attempt to get it to eat something.
Hungry dogs don't refuse a bowl of food, only fussy ones do.
It's normally owners of single dogs which make them fussy. When you have several dogs, you don't get unltra fixated on what they eat. You tend to put food down and once down, it goes right out of your mind. They eat, they don't eat...it's all the same to me.There is nothing else on offer so eat it or don't.
No dog has ever gone skeletal in this house in my care, not even spoiled little darlings from doting owners who have to give thenm to me for whatever reasons. Oh they do try their trick on me. Have even refused to eat for a week before now, but if it's healthy' (and it is usually not only healthy but fat too) it will eat when it realises there are no choices here and if you turn your nose up at what is on offer, there is nothing else offered.
If you plan on feeding a BARF diet, it means more than just lean meat or bones. She needs other things besides, like tripe, organ meat, some carbohydrates etc.
My lot get BARF but also have a bowl full of el cheapo kibble available all the time too. I shall be feeding them nothing but kibble after this Friday's meat and bones collection, for a while though as the meat in warm weather attracts too many flies, plus my dogs tend to put on too much weight on a BARF diet and when brushing Ursa yesterday I realised that his bulk wasn't just his thick coat, but real fat. So no more BARF after Friday, and horrible unpalatable low fat, low protein kibble for a while. Altogether now....................awwwwww poor doggies :lol2:


----------



## fuzzielady

Awwwwww poor doggies:Na_Na_Na_Na:

I changed mine onto barf and can honestly say it is the best thing I have ever done. You do have a bit messing about to begin with for how much to give them but it is individual to each dog (not breed or sex). I have 3 rottweilers. One bitch is on 3/4lb meat a day, other bitch is on 1 1/2lb meat a day and my boy is on 1 1/4lb meat a day. I also have a springer male and he is on 1/2lb meat a day. This is either with bones in it (chicken wings) or bones every second day.


----------



## pixie_bex

Huge thanks to Lady Pimps for her help on msn and others advice, Its so nice to see Pooch enjoying her dinner!!! Its prob in my head but she seems to have more energy ( but with a hyper JR im not sure thats a good thing lol ) 

Just a couple of things, Is Turkey ok?? also what about raw liver? ** edited ** dont worry as I just looked and see they are fine!  


Ta

Becca
x


----------



## fuzzielady

pixie_bex said:


> Huge thanks to Lady Pimps for her help on msn and others advice, Its so nice to see Pooch enjoying her dinner!!! Its prob in my head but she seems to have more energy ( but with a hyper JR im not sure thats a good thing lol )
> 
> Just a couple of things, Is Turkey ok?? also what about raw liver? ** edited ** dont worry as I just looked and see they are fine!
> 
> 
> Ta
> 
> Becca
> x


Yeah they do have more energy. It is more physical though, like stamina. Rather than mental, stir crazy looking to get up to something:lol2: Which is probably what he was like before


----------



## pixie_bex

fuzzielady said:


> Yeah they do have more energy. It is more physical though, like stamina. Rather than mental, stir crazy looking to get up to something:lol2: Which is probably what he was like before


lol She is normally insane but lately we have insane with energy! lol

Got some fish today from Asda so gonna go home and try her on that tonight, Im such a geek but im excited to see if she will eat it lol


----------



## sophs87

*which ones???*

Hi, well today i went shopping and stopped in the butchers, i asked if they had bones ect for a dog and they said they had some buts of chicken (like a quarter of a chicken) but said they woulndt reccomend feeding it to a small dog and mines a shihtzu so am a bit confused, they said the bones were to small, what can i feed her? she is quite small but shes just over a year old 
thanks xx


----------



## Ssthisto

Chicken bones with meat shouldn't be a problem for a small dog if they're raw AND are in big enough chunks to *force* the dog to chew on them.


----------



## LoveForLizards

pixie_bex said:


> I am unsure on the amount of food she would need on a daily basis?
> Can she eat pork shoulder?


For a jack russel its generally 4% of the body weight, but some that aren't exercised properly end up on about 1.5%-2% of their body weight. Start off at 3%, if he starts to gain excess weight, knock it down, if he looses excess weight, knock it up. 
Pork shoulder is fine every week or fortnight, but as you said its quite fatty. Some will feed a fill of pork shoulder, then fast the next day, or just exercise more then next day. : victory:


----------



## LoveForLizards

fenwoman said:


> So no more BARF after Friday, and horrible unpalatable low fat, low protein kibble for a while. Altogether now....................awwwwww poor doggies :lol2:


:lol2::lol2::lol2:


----------



## vetdebbie

I've just started to slowly change my cats over to barf - one is totally over the moon at the idea (I have recently discovered it's her who pukes biscuit, no the diabetic one like I thought!). Sadly we went away for a few days, and to make life a little easier for my poor long suffering friend who was looking after the nine million animals, they went back to biscuit. Having finally put on weight, I come back to find her looking distinctly more skeletal than before 
Anyho, she's been very happy the last 24 hours - 1 chicken breast (had run out of everything else!) and some lovely minced chicken and green veg tonight. So, 1 converted, 3 to go......


----------



## freekygeeky

vetdebbie said:


> I've just started to slowly change my cats over to barf - one is totally over the moon at the idea (I have recently discovered it's her who pukes biscuit, no the diabetic one like I thought!). Sadly we went away for a few days, and to make life a little easier for my poor long suffering friend who was looking after the nine million animals, they went back to biscuit. Having finally put on weight, I come back to find her looking distinctly more skeletal than before
> Anyho, she's been very happy the last 24 hours - 1 chicken breast (had run out of everything else!) and some lovely minced chicken and green veg tonight. So, 1 converted, 3 to go......


veg, mine wont eat veg, unless they nick it off our plates at dinner time!


----------



## fenwoman

vetdebbie said:


> I've just started to slowly change my cats over to barf - one is totally over the moon at the idea (I have recently discovered it's her who pukes biscuit, no the diabetic one like I thought!). Sadly we went away for a few days, and to make life a little easier for my poor long suffering friend who was looking after the nine million animals, they went back to biscuit. Having finally put on weight, I come back to find her looking distinctly more skeletal than before
> Anyho, she's been very happy the last 24 hours - 1 chicken breast (had run out of everything else!) and some lovely minced chicken and green veg tonight. So, 1 converted, 3 to go......


 Have you tried ox heart? My cats won't eat raw chicken unless it's a freshly killed cockerel, but they would leap through feiry hoops for ox heart. Of course it has the added advantage of being cheap too.
I always dissect it first to see if I can remember all the semi lunar , bicuspid and tricuspid valves etc from my school days. Then I cut it into slivers and I just can't cut fast enough for the cats.
I get loads of hearts from the abattoir for free so that's a bonus.
Tabitha my Salford cat, would eat biscuits first and ignore the tinned meat. Theproblem is that she wouldn't drink enough and ended up with piddling problems, so now I have no biscuits at all for the cats and they have BARF and tinned.
I don't give the cats veg at all. They are obligate carnivores so need mainly muscle meat. No doubt they top up any deficiencies in their diet with wild things they catch and eat, like the baby rabbit Bertie brought me for my approval yesterday. He refused to eat it until I'd pretended to have a chew of it (it was dead).
I don't think me throwing up is part of the BARF diet but having to pretend to eat a dead baby rabbit, nearly made me do so.


----------



## freekygeeky

mine have heart (i think pigs) and they LOVE it. LOVE it.. ginger has problems eatiung it, but still loves it too.


----------



## FoxyMumma

Hey guys, quick question... Faith is in the vets to be spayed on wednesday... now what BARF would be suitable for her to eat after? or shall I stick to something like cooked chicken breast and Rice? :hmm:


----------



## fenwoman

FoxyMumma said:


> Hey guys, quick question... Faith is in the vets to be spayed on wednesday... now what BARF would be suitable for her to eat after? or shall I stick to something like cooked chicken breast and Rice? :hmm:



Ahem....the 'R' in BARF stands for raw.
I certainly would not feed chicken breast. The whole point of BARF is that the diet is as near natural as possible so it means whole carcase. I.e. skin, bones, innards etc. Anything else is not BARF.
There is no 'kind' of BARF (when you ask what BARF). It is just BARF. Bones.And.Raw.Food.

BARF Diet - Healthy & Natural Raw Food For Dogs & Cats, Pet Health Care Food & Nutrition Products Supply Online

I suppose you could go BARF, or you can stick to a commercial diet supplemented with the occasional treat of cooked meat.


----------



## FoxyMumma

fenwoman said:


> Ahem....the 'R' in BARF stands for raw.
> I certainly would not feed chicken breast. The whole point of BARF is that the diet is as near natural as possible so it means whole carcase. I.e. skin, bones, innards etc. Anything else is not BARF.
> There is no 'kind' of BARF (when you ask what BARF). It is just BARF. Bones.And.Raw.Food.
> 
> BARF Diet - Healthy & Natural Raw Food For Dogs & Cats, Pet Health Care Food & Nutrition Products Supply Online
> 
> I suppose you could go BARF, or you can stick to a commercial diet supplemented with the occasional treat of cooked meat.


I know it stands for raw, I was merely enquiring if I should offer her, her usual BARF diet, or maybe something lighter, it was quite obviously a stupid question :whistling2: Wont bother asking next time


----------



## Ssthisto

Rice is going to be "heavier" and less digestible than meat and bones for a dog.


----------



## FoxyMumma

Ssthisto said:


> Rice is going to be "heavier" and less digestible than meat and bones for a dog.


I was actually going on my vets advice, he knows mine are Barf dogs, but said that she would be better with a chicken and brown rice diet just for a couple of days whilst shes healing, then to go back to her usual diet. But hey what the hell ill ignore his advice and just stick to her usual diet.


----------



## fenwoman

FoxyMumma said:


> I was actually going on my vets advice, he knows mine are Barf dogs, but said that she would be better with a chicken and brown rice diet just for a couple of days whilst shes healing, then to go back to her usual diet. But hey what the hell ill ignore his advice and just stick to her usual diet.


 The trouble with a lot of vets is that BARF is beyond their understanding and they are afraid of the idea of dogs eating bones because in vet school they have it drummed in that bines are bad.

Personally, I would carry on feeding her as per usual. I can't quite see how BARF could slow her healing process down. In fact I imagine good raw and wholesome food would help her heal.
Sorry I misunderstood your initial question. I blame the weather.


----------



## FoxyMumma

fenwoman said:


> The trouble with a lot of vets is that BARF is beyond their understanding and they are afraid of the idea of dogs eating bones because in vet school they have it drummed in that bines are bad.
> 
> Personally, I would carry on feeding her as per usual. I can't quite see how BARF could slow her healing process down. In fact I imagine good raw and wholesome food would help her heal.
> Sorry I misunderstood your initial question. I blame the weather.


I had a good discussion with my vet about the BARF diet, he said as a vet he wouldnt recommend it because he didnt know enough about it, but had seen a few dogs over the years excell whilst on it, He even said he would look more into it, I told him about Dr Billinghursts book give your dog a bone and suggested he read it, whether he has since or not I have no idea... maybe I should have leant him my copy :lol2:

I was more worried about her tugging meat off bones and pulling/popping stiches out? maybe I didnt word my initial question propperly but id had a long day when I posted lol. I was just more thinking along the lines of giving her chicken wings so shes chewing rather than tugging etc, I dont mind giving her small peices as she chews everything thoroughly rather than just swallowing everything whole like our rottie does :devil:


----------



## freekygeeky

i was told not to use it by vets too,
mine seem happy on it, ginger is a little fussy but he was with wet food too..
Their coats are much better and ginger has lost weight on it too. Only thing i have a problem with at the moent is, scooby keeps getting rodent ulcers and this Can be due to diet, apparently (the vet told me) so hmm.. who knows.


----------



## LoveForLizards

freekygeeky said:


> i was told not to use it by vets too,
> mine seem happy on it, ginger is a little fussy but he was with wet food too..
> Their coats are much better and ginger has lost weight on it too. Only thing i have a problem with at the moent is, scooby keeps getting rodent ulcers and this Can be due to diet, apparently (the vet told me) so hmm.. who knows.


There is no definity in that rodent uclers are caused by diet, but some cats have responded well to being given either a supplement in their normal diet or a complete change of diet. This could be due to the different things used in certain foods.
Rodent ulcers can also occur from an allergy.


----------



## FoxyMumma

freekygeeky said:


> i was told not to use it by vets too,
> mine seem happy on it, ginger is a little fussy but he was with wet food too..
> Their coats are much better and ginger has lost weight on it too. Only thing i have a problem with at the moent is, scooby keeps getting rodent ulcers and this Can be due to diet, apparently (the vet told me) so hmm.. who knows.


I think vets just dont understand the diet what-so-ever, throughout their training all they learn in nutrition is about commercial foods and the prescription diets, I think if they were to actually research into other diets they could possibly know more about BARF to see the benefits for them to recommend it.


----------



## freekygeeky

I have a cat BARF question.
All my cats are on a BARF diet. They have mainly this brand
400g Frozen Minces - The Natural Food for Healthy Animals (anglian meats i think its called) They also eat wild animals, and they have the odd day old chick hatchling. Along with heart as a treat. And eggs. I tried pasta with scooby as he is obsessed with bread but he didnt like it..
Anyway my question is, i may be adopting the kitten i am currently fostering, he is currently 8 ish weeks old...when can he go on to a BARF diet? in the wild, he woudl be eating real animals by now, and no milk etc i guess...
he is currently eating the food the shelter has given me, whiskers tescos etc etc, he has sampled the barf diet, by sneeking in to the kitchen! lol.


----------



## freekygeeky

i may not be getting the kitten now, either way bumpy up for the question just incase


----------



## Ssthisto

Depends on whether you do intend to keep him. His mum, if he were living feral, wouldn't be feeding him kibble now - she'd be bringing him dead (and not-so-dead) things. If you're keeping him swapping him over to BARF (gently if his tummy is tetchy) is something you can do any time.

But if you aren't keeping him it would probably be a good idea to keep the raw food to a minimum so he's not too fussy for his new owners.


----------



## freekygeeky

Ssthisto said:


> Depends on whether you do intend to keep him. His mum, if he were living feral, wouldn't be feeding him kibble now - she'd be bringing him dead (and not-so-dead) things. If you're keeping him swapping him over to BARF (gently if his tummy is tetchy) is something you can do any time.
> 
> But if you aren't keeping him it would probably be a good idea to keep the raw food to a minimum so he's not too fussy for his new owners.


well the desision will be made next week, when i get a home visit, now he is eating normal cat food/buiscuits... so if we coudl keep him, BARF would be ok for a young kitten? good good


----------



## diamondlil

Here's my lurcher puppy Rosie, she'd been fed Baker's complete puppy food, I gave her a chicken wing the day she came home and she absolutely loved it. I tried to change her gradually but she wouldn't touch the Bakers after that! Lamb necks and chicken quarters are her staple diet and I think she's a good advert for raw meaty bones!


----------



## goodwin1234

I've always fed my dogs on a mix of tinned meat and a 'complete' dry food of some sort. But at the same time if im cooking chicken ect for dinner i'll always save a bit to give to the dogs at feeding time.

I'm intruiged by the idea of a BARF diet now after reading this thread, but i honestly cant see any of my dogs devouring a whole rabbit if i bought one home for them tonight!?

Also are there any guidelines anywhere about exactly how much (in weight) specific breeds would need to eat on a completely raw diet? I assume it would vary depending on the meat they were eating as every animal will have different nutrtional values?

Thanks, Kieron


----------



## LoveForLizards

Some dogs take longer then others to get onto a raw diet. Somebody from dogforum.org tricked their dog into trying raw by throwing a few treats they were used to in the air then throwing a piece of raw, otherwise they wouldn't taste it. After that they ate BARF happily.
You can also use the soup method to get them to taste it or mix it in with the tinned food. Generally wont take them long to catch on, though.

There is no set amount, it all depends on the amount of exercise, age etc
Generally its 2-4% of the body weight.


----------



## jadelee

My dog eats raw food with pleasure. So we haven't such kind of problem.


----------



## Shelley66

goodwin1234 said:


> I've always fed my dogs on a mix of tinned meat and a 'complete' dry food of some sort. But at the same time if im cooking chicken ect for dinner i'll always save a bit to give to the dogs at feeding time.
> 
> The idea of calling tinned stuff meat makes me smile, have you actually seen what the "meat" content in the tin is? It is mainly made up of cereal which is processed and coloured to make it look like meat!
> 
> I'm intruiged by the idea of a BARF diet now after reading this thread, but i honestly cant see any of my dogs devouring a whole rabbit if i bought one home for them tonight!?
> 
> So chop it up!! I have a very fussy GSD, she will only eat meat that is cut into small pieces :gasp: she won't eat anything that is bigger than a chicken wing... Even though she has my other dogs and cats eating meat all around her! She loves rabbit, but the butcher cuts one rabbit up into eight peices for us.... I wouldn't go out and catch one myself. And of course it comes to me all cleaned out and minus a head and fur. She is fine with bones though, whatever the size.
> 
> Also are there any guidelines anywhere about exactly how much (in weight) specific breeds would need to eat on a completely raw diet? I assume it would vary depending on the meat they were eating as every animal will have different nutrtional values?
> 
> If your dog is fully grown they need about 2.5-3% of their weight in meat/bones daily. It is different for pups and growing dogs. Also some dogs will happily eat more than others, so you just adjust to what is right for them. As I say my GSD is an odd little madam, my Cockers would dearly love to eat her food as well as their own!
> 
> With a raw diet you don't need to be nutrionally perfect everday, or week. So long as the food balances out over a month the dogs are fine. The main proportion of the diet should be white meat. So lets say my dogs get chicken and pork for 5 days a week, on the other days they would get beef, lamb, tripe, liver, kidney, heart, fish etc. I give each dog a couple of eggs each a week, they tend to have them in the morning.... I just throw them a raw egg in the garden, mine let the shell smash on the floor and then eat them.... Well the two biggies just take their eggs off me and break them themselves, but the others never break the shells. I don't give my dogs any suppliments either, well apart from garlic powder to keep the fleas away. But they don't have veg or anything else added to their food, it is just meat and bones.
> 
> Thanks, Kieron


The breeder I had my GSD off has written a book called " The Dog's Dinner", her name is Ann Ridyard, on the back page it says blurb.com, so I don't know if you can buy it from there, but you can buy it direct from her. It is well worth a read if you want to change to a raw meat and bone diet, as it is really easy to understand. She also has a website where she explains how to raw feed...Krisannrio's Raw feeding site - Why feed Raw?

Hope that helps.


----------



## beardedlady

right guys i have just started feeding my 2 staffies on RAW an they love it, been on it for 4days now, just one thing tho bailey's backside is like a tap when will he stop having the runs? dutchess is fine no problems with her what so ever.


----------



## Fuzzball

Did you change the diet over gradually or just overnight?
Also what are you feeding, in my experience too much lamb and offal (heart, liver, kidney etc) can give them the runs


----------



## beardedlady

did a straight swap, which i would have expected a couple of days of runs, also they have had just chicken(not liver etc) as every where i have read says to stick to one sort of protein for a week or so


----------



## LoveForLizards

beardedlady said:


> right guys i have just started feeding my 2 staffies on RAW an they love it, been on it for 4days now, just one thing tho bailey's backside is like a tap when will he stop having the runs? dutchess is fine no problems with her what so ever.


Give it another day or two, if they will eat bones then offer plenty, this is part of the detox period...


beardedlady said:


> did a straight swap, which i would have expected a couple of days of runs, also they have had just chicken(not liver etc) as every where i have read says to stick to one sort of protein for a week or so


Try adding beef instead, little easier on the stomach.


----------



## beardedlady

LoveForLizards said:


> Give it another day or two, if they will eat bones then offer plenty, this is part of the detox period...
> 
> 
> Try adding beef instead, little easier on the stomach.


thank you, i have just made my first order but dont get here till friday so i shall go get some beef from the shop, thanks again


----------



## shiprakaul

Great piece of knowledge! I currently have 2 dogs and am practising almost the same diet chart for them. But I did not have any idea about it anyhow. One of my dog eats vegetables and fruits too where as the other doesn't sniff it even. Great parallel diets. One eats all the time if given a chance and the other is so calorie conscious! Anywaz your piece was really great! :2thumb:


----------



## Tillies reptile rescue

I feed both my staffie crosses raw but need to find a cheaper way, i have seen on here alot of people get there stuff for free or cheap from butchers, none of the butchers round here are willing to help and its costing us a fortune, so any advice would be great :0)


----------



## fenwoman

Tillies reptile rescue said:


> I feed both my staffie crosses raw but need to find a cheaper way, i have seen on here alot of people get there stuff for free or cheap from butchers, none of the butchers round here are willing to help and its costing us a fortune, so any advice would be great :0)



Where are you currently getting the meat and bones from?


----------



## Tillies reptile rescue

Local pet shop,so its bit pricey, plus they only really do mince, chickens wings and turkey necks....which are good size for miley but monty needs something bigger, plus i want to give them more variety


----------



## Fuzzball

You can try private breeders of birds (chickens, turkeys, geese, pheasants etc) I am currently getting my RWB at a very good prive and its costing me about a fiver a week to feed 4 large breed dogs, 9 adult ferrets and 14 kits. Only sacrifice is I dont have any say in what I get, how it looks (i am squeemish so my OH has to chop them up for me) and I get a phone call one afternoon and we have to collect that evening, but at that price im certainly not complaining! Any weeks that im short I get anglian meat stuff, only cos I can get it at 50p a block though which does in emergencies.

Before that, I ordered from Landywoods and I cannot fault their produce. Albion meat is also a very good company which I have used in the past and Berriewoods


----------



## fenwoman

Tillies reptile rescue said:


> Local pet shop,so its bit pricey, plus they only really do mince, chickens wings and turkey necks....which are good size for miley but monty needs something bigger, plus i want to give them more variety


 Where is your nearest abattoir? Try them. But you could always order from someone like Landywoods who deliver.
Have yuou gone through your yellow pages to find a proper butcher as opposed to a meat seller? Proper butchers buy a whole cow and bone and joint it on the premises and so have lots of waste which they get rid of free or cheap. Meat sellers buy their meat already jointed and only sell the stuff.


----------



## Tillies reptile rescue

fenwoman said:


> Where is your nearest abattoir? Try them. But you could always order from someone like Landywoods who deliver.
> Have yuou gone through your yellow pages to find a proper butcher as opposed to a meat seller? Proper butchers buy a whole cow and bone and joint it on the premises and so have lots of waste which they get rid of free or cheap. Meat sellers buy their meat already jointed and only sell the stuff.


 I have contacted our local butchers and had to laugh because according to them all their meat comes in ready boned !! 
I have just contacted one just outside the area and he does big bags of mixed bones for 50p and is going to get me prices direct from his supplier for boxes of chicken wings, hearts etc, because he said it will work out cheaper than getting them direct from the shop. So fingers crossed it comes up good. 
Im trying to track down local abattoir, only thing is i know the one i used to use when i worked on farm use all the bones etc and sell them onto local zoos and breeders and not cheap ether but anything is work ago. 
Thanks for all the help will keep you all updated


----------



## LoveForLizards

Tillies reptile rescue said:


> I have just contacted one just outside the area and he does big bags of mixed bones for 50p and is going to get me prices direct from his supplier for boxes of chicken wings, hearts etc, because he said it will work out cheaper than getting them direct from the shop.


:no1::no1:


----------



## LoveForLizards

Anybody know where I can get horse meat and bones in the west Midlands? don't mind if it has to be delivered but don't want to have the pay a fortune for it.


----------



## fenwoman

LoveForLizards said:


> Anybody know where I can get horse meat and bones in the west Midlands? don't mind if it has to be delivered but don't want to have the pay a fortune for it.


 I'm not sure you can get horsemeat in this country. It might be worth phoning around some horse slaughteres to see if you could buyt direct from them. I suspect however the answer will be "sorry, elf and safety" because I'm not sure they are allowed to slaughter for human consumption and for animal consumption, I have a feeling the meat had a dye sprayed on it. Try your nearest hunt kennels also ?


----------



## sarahc

*are bones safe*

before I trawl through all the info you have all posted could anyone answer a couple of things for me.Are chicken wing type bones safe for flat faced breeds with narrow wind pipes.Do any pug,peke,boston or bulldog owners on here give them.Can anyone recommend a specific processor grinder I could get for crunching up the bones.I've just about knackered the Kenwood Chef on the first go.


----------



## LoveForLizards

fenwoman said:


> I'm not sure you can get horsemeat in this country. It might be worth phoning around some horse slaughteres to see if you could buyt direct from them. I suspect however the answer will be "sorry, elf and safety" because I'm not sure they are allowed to slaughter for human consumption and for animal consumption, I have a feeling the meat had a dye sprayed on it. Try your nearest hunt kennels also ?


 I thought it was legally sold in this country? I'll have to find out the numbers for some slaughter houses then!




sarahc said:


> before I trawl through all the info you have all posted could anyone answer a couple of things for me.Are chicken wing type bones safe for flat faced breeds with narrow wind pipes.Do any pug,peke,boston or bulldog owners on here give them.Can anyone recommend a specific processor grinder I could get for crunching up the bones.I've just about knackered the Kenwood Chef on the first go.


If the dog cant fit the whole bone in it's mouth, should be fine. As for a meat processor for grinding bones, meat hammer and a wooden chopping board. :whistling2:


----------



## sarahc

*meat hammer*

:lol2:thanks.


----------



## fenwoman

LoveForLizards said:


> I thought it was legally sold in this country? I'll have to find out the numbers for some slaughter houses then!


 Look for abattoirs, but AFAIAA normal abattoirs don't kill horses. For that you need to look for 'horse slaughterer'. Which is why I wondered if you could buy it for human consumption over here. The knackerman I use for any fallen stock, is also a horse slaughterer but I have a feeling all the meat gets sold to be processed into animal food.
Try the nearest abattoir in any case as, even if you can't get horse meat, you should be able to get plenty of other meat.


----------



## LoveForLizards

fenwoman said:


> Look for abattoirs, but AFAIAA normal abattoirs don't kill horses. For that you need to look for 'horse slaughterer'. Which is why I wondered if you could buy it for human consumption over here. The knackerman I use for any fallen stock, is also a horse slaughterer but I have a feeling all the meat gets sold to be processed into animal food.
> Try the nearest abattoir in any case as, even if you can't get horse meat, you should be able to get plenty of other meat.


According to Wikipedia it is legal to slaughter and butcher horses for meat in this country, for the food trade, so I will have to see. Can't imagine Abattoirs being open about it because of the "taboo" over horse meat but I'll ask around. Will be asking about the Abattoirs for offals, bones etc.

Thanks Fenny : victory:


----------



## fenwoman

LoveForLizards said:


> According to Wikipedia it is legal to slaughter and butcher horses for meat in this country, for the food trade, so I will have to see. Can't imagine Abattoirs being open about it because of the "taboo" over horse meat but I'll ask around. Will be asking about the Abattoirs for offals, bones etc.
> 
> Thanks Fenny : victory:


 Yes there is indeed nothing illegal about it but I don't know one abattoir worker who would happily slaughter a horse or horses on a regular basis. Horses are after all revered in this country and not seen as meat by the majority.Horse slaughterers are also known as 'knackers' and they specialise in horses.
I use either of 2 abattoirs for my livestock and neither do horses. It's tradition rather than the legalities. Ask abattoirs for their 'waste'. You do them a favour by taking it since they pay a lot of money to get it disposed of properly so the less they dispose of, the more money they save. It'll probably be easier to source meat from an abattoir than a knacker.However, if you have any knackers (horse slaughterers in the yellow pages) in your area, certainly worth asking them too.
Good luck with it.


----------



## SCOTLANDUKBOA

*Grinder?*

hi

thinking of switching over to a barf diet for my cats, got all the books info etc, but having problems finding a grinder that will grind chicken wings? some people have given me and idea of where to get one but when i speak to the company, they say their grinders dont grind bones. 

so has anyone got any ideas where i can get one? or maybe someone is using a particular make just now,

ta
linda
:blush:


----------



## fenwoman

SCOTLANDUKBOA said:


> hi
> 
> thinking of switching over to a barf diet for my cats, got all the books info etc, but having problems finding a grinder that will grind chicken wings? some people have given me and idea of where to get one but when i speak to the company, they say their grinders dont grind bones.
> 
> so has anyone got any ideas where i can get one? or maybe someone is using a particular make just now,
> 
> ta
> linda
> :blush:


 Why grind them? Why not simply feed them as is? Otherwise buy ready minced chicken with bone in.I culled an old hen this afternoon and simply slung it to the cats as it was. Last time I looked, there were feathers everywhere but hardly any of the chicken left.


----------



## SCOTLANDUKBOA

hehe laughing at the hen thing, well i am a complete newbie to this and so is the cats (they dont know that yet) so i bought a really good book on it and they have recipes for making stuff up, eggs, chicken wings, hearts all that kinda stuff, so was going to try that , only thing i am lacking is the grinder ....grr 

If i was in the USA it wouldnt be a problem as I have been speaking to people over there in their barf club and they have loads to choose from, and like you say most feed whole things, but to start with i would like to make my own little things to try it on them.

thanks much for replying

linda


----------



## fenwoman

SCOTLANDUKBOA said:


> hehe laughing at the hen thing, well i am a complete newbie to this and so is the cats (they dont know that yet) so i bought a really good book on it and they have recipes for making stuff up, eggs, chicken wings, hearts all that kinda stuff, so was going to try that , only thing i am lacking is the grinder ....grr
> 
> If i was in the USA it wouldnt be a problem as I have been speaking to people over there in their barf club and they have loads to choose from, and like you say most feed whole things, but to start with i would like to make my own little things to try it on them.
> 
> thanks much for replying
> 
> linda


 Have you tried day old chicks? Try not to obsess about doing everything as per the book, especially if the book was written by an America. Your local butcher should be able to supply you with ox heart which is cheap and find out if anyone goes ferreting near you. You must offer skin and bones aswell as the meat though, hence my feeding whole carcase.
I never thought of BARF as needing any kind of instruction or recipe book or having to 'make' stuff. Since cats are obligate carnivores give them what a wild cat would eat. Whole carcase quails, rats or mice, day old chicks aswell as raw free range eggs, ox heart etc.


----------



## SCOTLANDUKBOA

hi many thanks for that

i will try the chick thing first and see wot their reaction is, and speak to my butcher, as you said it is an american book so will try options that you mentioned, I also seen some quails so will see wot they do with that

thanks again for your help, its much appreciated!

linda : victory:


----------



## Pimperella

fenwoman said:


> Why grind them? Why not simply feed them as is? Otherwise buy ready minced chicken with bone in.I culled an old hen this afternoon and simply slung it to the cats as it was. Last time I looked, there were feathers everywhere but hardly any of the chicken left.


 
Mine go nuts when give a whole chicken with feathers. End up with feathers everywhere and the 2 big toms dragging round huge bits of skin with feathers on for ages, not wanting to give up their new 'toy' lol

We've started getting about 10 to 15 Kilo of Chicken from the Fried Chicken Place at bottom of rd every evening. They would bin it otherwise so at least it's not wasted now.
It's mainly wings, parsons nose, Fat and lots and lots of Giblet bags, Few handfuls of Strips of chicken, and lamb fat.
All for free and all hubby has to do is pick it up on his way home from work as he's passing.


----------



## fuzzielady

Have you tried Landywoods? They do minced chicken and bone and minced turkey and bone as well as chicken wings and carcasses


SCOTLANDUKBOA said:


> hehe laughing at the hen thing, well i am a complete newbie to this and so is the cats (they dont know that yet) so i bought a really good book on it and they have recipes for making stuff up, eggs, chicken wings, hearts all that kinda stuff, so was going to try that , only thing i am lacking is the grinder ....grr
> 
> If i was in the USA it wouldnt be a problem as I have been speaking to people over there in their barf club and they have loads to choose from, and like you say most feed whole things, but to start with i would like to make my own little things to try it on them.
> 
> thanks much for replying
> 
> linda


----------



## SCOTLANDUKBOA

hi thanks for this, will try anything really,

:2thumb:


----------



## clob91

barf is the best way, woop. would never feed anything else tbh


----------



## ditzychick

Hi i would just like to say my mother and i have several cats from the same litter between us. Hers live at the stables with our horses and are out everyday catching themselves rabbits, rats and birds etc, my little guy lives with me at home on sience plan kibble. The size difference of the cats is quite astounding, the yard cats are at least 50% larger than my cat. 

Reading through this thread i am beginning to think it may be worth changing the diet of my three cats. They do on occassion enjoy a chicken carcass so im quite sure over time this will go down quite well. The only thing i do worry about is bone getting stuck or splintering and causing problems.


----------



## fugitive

Hello

I've never posted on this site before but I felt inspired to do so after spending a substantial portion of yesterday reading this entire thread! I went off and read as much as I could elsewhere on-line as well, including the Landywood site itself.

I have 4 cats, all farm bred males between the ages of 2 and 8. They are all voracious killers (and eaters!) of vermin and birds. I have decided that BARF is the logical and natural way to feed them and, as such, I am placing and order with Landywoods today. I hope that in time, when I have adequately sourced alternatives, I shall be able to feed the cats 'whole' carcass's and not pre-prepared RAW foods.

I have one question and that is, shall I lightly blitz veg in a processor for the cats? I'm not sure any of my moggies could manage carrot medallions and, whilst I love my cats, I haven't got the patience to finely dice anything. The rest of the family get chunky veg and I'm b*ggered if I'm going to spend more time on the cats dinner than I do on ours! *edited to add that, although I know cats are carnivours I assumed that veg is a useful addition to the diet for vitamin purposes. I can see, here and elswhere, that some do and some don't add them and I'm more than happy to be guided by people who are more experienced than I*

I feel like I'm taking a really positive step forward for my cats and I thank all of you for such an interesting and informative thread. I'd particularly like to thank Fenwoman; such forthright and honest opinions are refreshing (and funny - if a little scary at times  ).

Best wishes.


----------



## labmad

When you blitz the veggies try and get them like a 'pulp', so there aren't any chuncks in there as such, not sure if your cats will go for it, but if you mix in some fish, it may well draw their temptations in, even if you start with more fish than veg at first, then in time reduce the fish amount but keep the veg amount the same....it's worth a try

It's finding what works for yours really 



fugitive said:


> Hello
> 
> I've never posted on this site before but I felt inspired to do so after spending a substantial portion of yesterday reading this entire thread! I went off and read as much as I could elsewhere on-line as well, including the Landywood site itself.
> 
> I have 4 cats, all farm bred males between the ages of 2 and 8. They are all voracious killers (and eaters!) of vermin and birds. I have decided that BARF is the logical and natural way to feed them and, as such, I am placing and order with Landywoods today. I hope that in time, when I have adequately sourced alternatives, I shall be able to feed the cats 'whole' carcass's and not pre-prepared RAW foods.
> 
> I have one question and that is, shall I lightly blitz veg in a processor for the cats? I'm not sure any of my moggies could manage carrot medallions and, whilst I love my cats, I haven't got the patience to finely dice anything. The rest of the family get chunky veg and I'm b*ggered if I'm going to spend more time on the cats dinner than I do on ours! *edited to add that, although I know cats are carnivours I assumed that veg is a useful addition to the diet for vitamin purposes. I can see, here and elswhere, that some do and some don't add them and I'm more than happy to be guided by people who are more experienced than I*
> 
> I feel like I'm taking a really positive step forward for my cats and I thank all of you for such an interesting and informative thread. I'd particularly like to thank Fenwoman; such forthright and honest opinions are refreshing (and funny - if a little scary at times  ).
> 
> Best wishes.


----------



## fenwoman

fugitive said:


> I have one question and that is, shall I lightly blitz veg in a processor for the cats?


why would you feed an obligate carnivore on vegetables? Cats need meat, meat and meat.If you feel you must offer veg, try some frozen defrosted sweetcorn or peas. I discovered by accident that cats adore the stuff when I defrosted a whole bag for the parrots and went back to find the whole lot gone.Since it was being defrosted in the cat room, I had to assume it was them wot dunnit. In fact I put some out a day or two later and watched as they went wild for it. Found out about peas by accident too.
How many wild cats do you know of, which dig up root vegetables or pick veg, to eat? None. They need muscle meat because that's what contains the taurine.
As for whole carcase, try game merchants? Or try day old chicks or rats and mice. I breed my own rats and mice and my cats sit outside the door on the weekend when they hear me starting the weekly cage clean cos that's when I sort out and cull anything I don't need in my breeding programme.
How far are you from Melton Mowbray? You can buy whole rabbit, pheasant, duck, partridge and all types of game there on a Tuesday morning. One rabbit would give about a week's worth or food for a cat, including the head. In fact in this cold weather you could easily just chuck the whole carcase down and let the cat eat it bit by bit, although in summer you'd have to chop it up into suitable portions with an axe or something.



> I feel like I'm taking a really positive step forward for my cats and I thank all of you for such an interesting and informative thread. I'd particularly like to thank Fenwoman; such forthright and honest opinions are refreshing (and funny - if a little scary at times  ).
> 
> Best wishes.


 Scary? Me?? I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm friendly and easy going I am.:lol2:


----------



## Ian.g

i am very interested on getting mine on this kind of diet! currently they are all on dried...how do i go about it? obviously gradually adding it in i know...but what would be a suitable full time diet...my other half wont allow me to feed whole food as such, but she would be fine with chicken wings etc...what about minced raw chicken, turkey, lamb etc? maybe a mix of that with a little bit of dried food for some roughage...i have always fed commercial foods in all the years i have had dogs, but i am deffinately interested in changing them over to this if it benefits them! is it ok with pups? Leo my american bulldog is 6 months....sorry if all this has been asked already but i have been lazy and not read the whole thread lol


----------



## fenwoman

Ian.g said:


> i am very interested on getting mine on this kind of diet! currently they are all on dried...how do i go about it? obviously gradually adding it in i know...but what would be a suitable full time diet...my other half wont allow me to feed whole food as such, but she would be fine with chicken wings etc...what about minced raw chicken, turkey, lamb etc? maybe a mix of that with a little bit of dried food for some roughage...i have always fed commercial foods in all the years i have had dogs, but i am deffinately interested in changing them over to this if it benefits them! is it ok with pups? Leo my american bulldog is 6 months....sorry if all this has been asked already but i have been lazy and not read the whole thread lol


 I know that some people go for the minced meat route but personally my feelings are that if you can't do the job properly and feed whole carcase so they get all the nutrition they need, you should stick to kibble and offer a chicken wing as a treat occasionally. Kibble is a complete diet so if you start add8ing it to mince and using it like a mixer, you may end up with problems.
How sad it is that your 'other half' is in control and you have to beg permission to feed your dog properly.


----------



## Ian.g

fenwoman said:


> I know that some people go for the minced meat route but personally my feelings are that if you can't do the job properly and feed whole carcase so they get all the nutrition they need, you should stick to kibble and offer a chicken wing as a treat occasionally. Kibble is a complete diet so if you start add8ing it to mince and using it like a mixer, you may end up with problems.
> How sad it is that your 'other half' is in control and you have to beg permission to feed your dog properly.


not sad at all lol....and i dont have to beg permission either, but i do respect her wishes! neither of us have control...we are called partners! how sad it is that you are so presumptious!


----------



## Ian.g

can any one else help answer my questions in a slightly less rude manner please?


----------



## labmad

best thing to do before going for the change, should you decide to go for it, try and fnd local places where you can source all what you need, stuff like chicken carcuses. rabbits, tripe, lamb ribs/breast, turkey drumsticks, fish, veggies etc etc

some you will get from the supermarket if needed, but have you an abbotoir in your area, great for fresh tripe (must wrn you, it stinks, but the dogs love it), aldo see if they have lamb ribs or hearts liver etc there too, you should get a lot for quite little money 

rabbits are good if you know someone who shoots, as are pheasants

is the other half not keen on 'whole foods' becuase she thinks the kitchen is gong to look liek a scene out of a horrror movie?



Ian.g said:


> i am very interested on getting mine on this kind of diet! currently they are all on dried...how do i go about it? obviously gradually adding it in i know...but what would be a suitable full time diet...my other half wont allow me to feed whole food as such, but she would be fine with chicken wings etc...what about minced raw chicken, turkey, lamb etc? maybe a mix of that with a little bit of dried food for some roughage...i have always fed commercial foods in all the years i have had dogs, but i am deffinately interested in changing them over to this if it benefits them! is it ok with pups? Leo my american bulldog is 6 months....sorry if all this has been asked already but i have been lazy and not read the whole thread lol


----------



## Ian.g

labmad said:


> best thing to do before going for the change, should you decide to go for it, try and fnd local places where you can source all what you need, stuff like chicken carcuses. rabbits, tripe, lamb ribs/breast, turkey drumsticks, fish, veggies etc etc
> 
> some you will get from the supermarket if needed, but have you an abbotoir in your area, great for fresh tripe (must wrn you, it stinks, but the dogs love it), aldo see if they have lamb ribs or hearts liver etc there too, you should get a lot for quite little money
> 
> rabbits are good if you know someone who shoots, as are pheasants
> 
> is the other half not keen on 'whole foods' becuase she thinks the kitchen is gong to look liek a scene out of a horrror movie?


Thanks for that, we do have a few local butchers etc...so we will deffinately have an ask and see what they can salvage for us, my other half is not keen on the whole foods as like you said, she doesnt like the idea of seeing them munch on "whole" other animals lol...and thinks it could become incredibly messy!...we have to split our dogs up for feeding, as Storm our english bull terrier is extremely greedy! and as soon as she is finished she will try and steal Maverick my staffy`s...our new american bulldog Leo is still a pup, so we keep him out of the way where food is concerned as Storm will not tolerate any dog near her food (as Maverick found out the hard way once!) Leo does have quite a sensetive stomach according to his previous owners, so that is another slight concern...i have to respect my other halfs wishes, as i cant blame her for not wanting one of the dogs chomping on a whole rabbit etc all over the living room or dining room floor lol...


----------



## LoveForLizards

Ian.g said:


> i am very interested on getting mine on this kind of diet! currently they are all on dried...how do i go about it?


Different people go about it different ways. If your dog has a sensitive stomach, then feeding as normal but with a sprinkle of minced meat over the top, then after a couple of days of that to about a handful of the raw food, and so on. If he has a fairly strong stomach, you can feed 1 dry kibble meal in the morning, and a small amount of meat at night, slowly upping the raw and feeding less dry kibble. : victory:



> obviously gradually adding it in i know...but what would be a suitable full time diet...


Sorry, don't understand this bit. Do you mean BARF or BARF/dry kibble mix?



> my other half wont allow me to feed whole food as such, but she would be fine with chicken wings etc...


Obviously that's your OHs prerogative, and you must respect that, but it may be worth working on why she doesn't want to feed 'whole' foods? Do you mean that as in, rats/mice/rodents/guinea pigs/rabbits, with fur and all? Or just bones in general? It's worth noting that even if you can't feed whole bones, you must feed them bone in some form. You can break it up by using a hammer to smash it into small pieces, or grind it down in a food grinder. Raw bone marrow & bone roughage (the bone itself) is considered essential to a raw diet, and it helps keep anal sacs clear and feaces firm and well formed, it also contains a stable amount of calcium for them. :2thumb:



> what about minced raw chicken, turkey, lamb etc? maybe a mix of that with a little bit of dried food for some roughage...i have always fed commercial foods in all the years i have had dogs, but i am deffinately interested in changing them over to this if it benefits them!


That's fine, though there's not really much point in using dried food for roughage. Most dry foods do nothing for the teeth, other then adding a bit of 'crunch' to the food to strengthen jaw bones, but usually a good quality mixer is best as usually the kibble pieces are bigger thus helping to avoid any plaque building up on the teeth (makes for fresh breath, clean saliva and healthier teeth). 



> is it ok with pups? Leo my american bulldog is 6 months....sorry if all this has been asked already but i have been lazy and not read the whole thread lol


Yup, perfectly OK. 
Some websites I recommend:
BARF Diet - Healthy & Natural Raw Food For Dogs & Cats, Pet Health Care Food & Nutrition Products Supply Online
RawFed.com Home Page
and The UK Natural Pet Food Shop

Hope this helps. : victory:


----------



## labmad

fair do's, it took me a while before i could handle a rabbit with its jacket still on etc, the guy who gets ours slces their stomach's and emptes the contents out, so there is no mess or gore at all, maybe in time you may try them, or even get them skinned to start, then it wont resemble the ickle fluffy bunny 

butchers wuld be a good place, they have to pay to have their leftovers taken away, so get friendly with a few, and get some goodies 

the messiest part i find is the veggies, we blend them to a pulp consistency which can go anywhere at times, so best to feed outside if poss 

Also, feed appropraite sized pieces to the size of the dog, so there is less chance of swallowing whole and getting stuck 



Ian.g said:


> Thanks for that, we do have a few local butchers etc...so we will deffinately have an ask and see what they can salvage for us, my other half is not keen on the whole foods as like you said, she doesnt like the idea of seeing them munch on "whole" other animals lol...and thinks it could become incredibly messy!...we have to split our dogs up for feeding, as Storm our english bull terrier is extremely greedy! and as soon as she is finished she will try and steal Maverick my staffy`s...our new american bulldog Leo is still a pup, so we keep him out of the way where food is concerned as Storm will not tolerate any dog near her food (as Maverick found out the hard way once!) Leo does have quite a sensetive stomach according to his previous owners, so that is another slight concern...i have to respect my other halfs wishes, as i cant blame her for not wanting one of the dogs chomping on a whole rabbit etc all over the living room or dining room floor lol...


----------



## Ian.g

LoveForLizards said:


> Different people go about it different ways. If your dog has a sensitive stomach, then feeding as normal but with a sprinkle of minced meat over the top, then after a couple of days of that to about a handful of the raw food, and so on. If he has a fairly strong stomach, you can feed 1 dry kibble meal in the morning, and a small amount of meat at night, slowly upping the raw and feeding less dry kibble. : victory:
> 
> 
> Sorry, don't understand this bit. Do you mean BARF or BARF/dry kibble mix?
> 
> 
> Obviously that's your OHs prerogative, and you must respect that, but it may be worth working on why she doesn't want to feed 'whole' foods? Do you mean that as in, rats/mice/rodents/guinea pigs/rabbits, with fur and all? Or just bones in general? It's worth noting that even if you can't feed whole bones, you must feed them bone in some form. You can break it up by using a hammer to smash it into small pieces, or grind it down in a food grinder. Raw bone marrow & bone roughage (the bone itself) is considered essential to a raw diet, and it helps keep anal sacs clear and feaces firm and well formed, it also contains a stable amount of calcium for them. :2thumb:
> 
> 
> That's fine, though there's not really much point in using dried food for roughage. Most dry foods do nothing for the teeth, other then adding a bit of 'crunch' to the food to strengthen jaw bones, but usually a good quality mixer is best as usually the kibble pieces are bigger thus helping to avoid any plaque building up on the teeth (makes for fresh breath, clean saliva and healthier teeth).
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, perfectly OK.
> Some websites I recommend:
> BARF Diet - Healthy & Natural Raw Food For Dogs & Cats, Pet Health Care Food & Nutrition Products Supply Online
> RawFed.com Home Page
> and The UK Natural Pet Food Shop
> 
> Hope this helps. : victory:


Thanks for that, what i meant by the "what is a suitable full time diet" is what kind of things would i feed? this is all new to me...so wondered what actual raw foods are best to give a balanced diet.



labmad said:


> fair do's, it took me a while before i could handle a rabbit with its jacket still on etc, the guy who gets ours slces their stomach's and emptes the contents out, so there is no mess or gore at all, maybe in time you may try them, or even get them skinned to start, then it wont resemble the ickle fluffy bunny
> 
> butchers wuld be a good place, they have to pay to have their leftovers taken away, so get friendly with a few, and get some goodies
> 
> the messiest part i find is the veggies, we blend them to a pulp consistency which can go anywhere at times, so best to feed outside if poss
> 
> Also, feed appropraite sized pieces to the size of the dog, so there is less chance of swallowing whole and getting stuck


thanks  my other half doesn`t mind seeing the animals dead (too much! lol) as i feed mice, rats and rabbits to my snakes...but she really doesn`t like to see them get eaten lol, with regards to suitable sized pieces, do you mean chop up the food fairly small? or leave in oversized chunks so that they actually have to chew it up themselves? as you can imagine with an EBT a Staffy and American bulldog all of them hardly know what chew means...they just tend to "inhale" their food lol...


----------



## LoveForLizards

Ian.g said:


> Thanks for that, what i meant by the "what is a suitable full time diet" is what kind of things would i feed? this is all new to me...so wondered what actual raw foods are best to give a balanced diet.


Variety is the spice of life.  Poultry, rabbit, game bird, lamb, beef, hearts/ giblets and so on, is all good. I wouldn't feed poultry anymore then 4x a week as the whole meal, though. It's really about what you have on hand at the time! Also worth noting a small amount of organ (kidney or liver are favored. Heart, lungs, stomach and gizzards count as muscle meat, not organ) should be fed once a week if you're not feeding whole animals, about 1/2 a cup per dog should suffice, as too much Organ (in particular, liver) can cause Vitamin A Toxicity. : victory:


----------



## Ian.g

LoveForLizards said:


> Variety is the spice of life.  Poultry, rabbit, game bird, lamb, beef, hearts/ giblets and so on, is all good. I wouldn't feed poultry anymore then 4x a week as the whole meal, though. It's really about what you have on hand at the time! Also worth noting a small amount of organ (kidney or liver are favored. Heart, lungs, stomach and gizzards count as muscle meat, not organ) should be fed once a week if you're not feeding whole animals, about 1/2 a cup per dog should suffice, as too much Organ (in particular, liver) can cause Vitamin A Toxicity. : victory:


excellent, thanks for that! :notworthy:...so basically all the leftover offcuts of anything from a butchers would pretty much be suitable, if i was to feed for instance chicken carcuses, wings, lamb and beef offcuts, turkey legs etc etc that would be a suitable diet (with the added organs once a week) what about fish? is that just given whole?...sorry to go on, but i`m finding all this really interesting, but it is all alien to me as well after feeding commercial foods to our dogs ever since i was a child.


----------



## sammy1969

Ok have read through the whole of this thread not an easy task lol taken me over two hours, and have a few questions please forgive me if at times i seem a bit dim but it is early and i have been up since daft oclock as couldn't sleep
I used to feed what i think may of been a form of BARF a few years ago but stopped after continued badgering from my vets of the time, now with a different one. I used to feed my poodles chicken wings,quarters raw pork and beef bones etc and raw veg in a bowl as one of my dogs is a fruit and veg freak lol will even eat citrus (clemintines satsumas arnages but not lemon)which I know is very unusual.
They still have raw bones when I can find them nolonger have a chaufeur lol to take me to any farms etc and being disabled and in a wheelchair makes getting anywhere rather awkward. 
I want to put allmy animals both the dogs and cats back onto this diet but I amnot sure hwo to do so and I am a bit worried as one of my cats is brain damaged and has no predatory instincts to speak ofand tends to let the other cat take food away from him. 
The other thing is I live in a flat with no garden so feeding whole carcasses could be a bit of a problem, (and before anyone thinks i am cruel for keeping dogs in a place with no garden I will say that straight opposite me is a large field where they are walked daily). I dont have room for a large freezer to get food in in bulk and cant seem to find anywher that delivers locally to me but will be asking local butchers if they have meat delivered on carcass or not once I can get out due to breaking my ankle last friday.
Anyone have any ideas how i can change the cats over and what i shuld feed them to start off with 
Thanx 
Sam


----------



## LoveForLizards

Ian.g said:


> excellent, thanks for that! :notworthy:...so basically all the leftover offcuts of anything from a butchers would pretty much be suitable, if i was to feed for instance chicken carcuses, wings, lamb and beef offcuts, turkey legs etc etc that would be a suitable diet (with the added organs once a week) what about fish? is that just given whole?...sorry to go on, but i`m finding all this really interesting, but it is all alien to me as well after feeding commercial foods to our dogs ever since i was a child.


Yep, the off-cuts are good quality yet cheap or often free. "Fit as a butchers dog!"  That diet would be fine, you're aiming for roughly 70% muscle meat, 10% organ and 20% bone in the diet, but this will vary and you'll soon find what suits your dogs individually (ie. Some should have more bone added to the diet, some should have less organs and so on). Fish is usually fed filleted, though I do know some people who feed them whole. I wouldn't personally as I can see the tiny fish bones causing a problem, but again that depends on the individual dog. You can easily buy filleted white fish and the like so I don't see it as worth the risk, I wouldn't feed more then one fish meal every week. 



sammy1969 said:


> I used to feed what i think may of been a form of BARF a few years ago but stopped after continued badgering from my vets of the time, now with a different one. I used to feed my poodles chicken wings,quarters raw pork and beef bones etc and raw veg in a bowl as one of my dogs is a fruit and veg freak lol will even eat citrus (clemintines satsumas arnages but not lemon)which I know is very unusual.
> They still have raw bones when I can find them nolonger have a chaufeur lol to take me to any farms etc and being disabled and in a wheelchair makes getting anywhere rather awkward.
> I want to put allmy animals both the dogs and cats back onto this diet but I amnot sure hwo to do so and I am a bit worried as one of my cats is brain damaged and has no predatory instincts to speak ofand tends to let the other cat take food away from him.
> The other thing is I live in a flat with no garden so feeding whole carcasses could be a bit of a problem, (and before anyone thinks i am cruel for keeping dogs in a place with no garden I will say that straight opposite me is a large field where they are walked daily). I dont have room for a large freezer to get food in in bulk and cant seem to find anywher that delivers locally to me but will be asking local butchers if they have meat delivered on carcass or not once I can get out due to breaking my ankle last friday.
> Anyone have any ideas how i can change the cats over and what i shuld feed them to start off with
> Thanx
> Sam


Have you tried abbatoirs and meat processors? Or if you have any local farms ask if they're ever passing by and if so would it be possible for them to drop BARF off-cuts when they pass and so on. 

With cats I'd try minced poultry at first, slowly working up to meat chunks and bones. Are yours on wet or dry food? It's usually easier if they like wet food, but far from impossible if they only eat dry.


----------



## sammy1969

Have you tried abbatoirs and meat processors? Or if you have any local farms ask if they're ever passing by and if so would it be possible for them to drop BARF off-cuts when they pass and so on. 

With cats I'd try minced poultry at first, slowly working up to meat chunks and bones. Are yours on wet or dry food? It's usually easier if they like wet food, but far from impossible if they only eat dry.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately I live in a city so no local abbatoirs not even that many local butchers to be honest although I am going to try the two I have heard of near to me. And to make matters worse have broken my ankle so cant get out at moment. 
I think one of the cats will take well to this diet( he already goes for any uncooked meat he can lay his paws on so we have to defrost everything in the fridge and as well as that he will eat any bread that is left out as well as pasta and rice) and I know the dogs will as they loved it when they were on the one similar a few years ago.It is just the brain damamged one I worry about as I am not sure he will understand what he is supposed to do with raw meat but I am definately going to give it a try especially as when I was defrosting the giblets from my turkey new years they both went for the them big style running off with the neck and gizard I managed to get to the liver and heart before they did and cooked it for myself lol yes I am strange

Forgot to add they are on dry at moment but regularly get treats and they tend to pinch any bones the dogs are given yes my dogs are both daft enough to let the cats have what they have


----------



## kenneally1

fenwoman said:


> I know that some people go for the minced meat route but personally my feelings are that if you can't do the job properly and feed whole carcase so they get all the nutrition they need, you should stick to kibble and offer a chicken wing as a treat occasionally. Kibble is a complete diet so if you start add8ing it to mince and using it like a mixer, you may end up with problems.
> How sad it is that your 'other half' is in control and you have to beg permission to feed your dog properly.




I'm sorry, but you are very rude women ! And before you prattle on about living the good life, and your only telling it your way, remember manners cost nothing.


Aside from that i generally respect your opinions, i just find your manners utterly lacking!


----------



## Meko

sammy1969 said:


> Unfortunately I live in a city so no local abbatoirs not even that many local butchers to be honest although I am going to try the two I have heard of near to me. .


you'd be surprised about the abbatoirs.
I live just outside Preston City centre and near me there's at least 2 abbatoirs and 2 chicken places where we get carcasses from.

What i do as well sometimes, instead of buying chicken breasts and legs etc i'd buy a chicken and cut the meat off so i'm left with a carcass for the dogs.


----------



## sammy1969

Meko said:


> you'd be surprised about the abbatoirs.
> I live just outside Preston City centre and near me there's at least 2 abbatoirs and 2 chicken places where we get carcasses from.
> 
> What i do as well sometimes, instead of buying chicken breasts and legs etc i'd buy a chicken and cut the meat off so i'm left with a carcass for the dogs.


 
Have looked for abbatiors but no success on that front but when I went to one of the butchers he had his carcasses up as stock bones and was charging about 50p for 4 small chicken carcasses and then pork and lamb and beef stock bones for between 40p-50p which I thought was reasonable so bought £5 the most expensive item being pigs trotters which were £1.50 for 4 so started them all off on the same thing chicken for the cats and pork for the dogs all but one cat has taken to it ok so will have to persevere with the last one.He is stuborn and knows if he refuses to eat it my oh will giv ein and let him have dry.


----------



## Meko

the chicken carcass isn't a bad price. i pay 10p a lb for mine. although they don't look very big they are filling as they get more from them than they do tinned. 
If i give my staffy cross 2 small carcasses he'll huff and puff half way through the second one but won't give up.


----------



## sammy1969

Meko said:


> the chicken carcass isn't a bad price. i pay 10p a lb for mine. although they don't look very big they are filling as they get more from them than they do tinned.
> If i give my staffy cross 2 small carcasses he'll huff and puff half way through the second one but won't give up.


Yeah I must admit I was surprised just how long the chicken carcasses lasted with the cats i did have to break them down a little but still left the pieces large enough for them to have to spend time chewing them up instead of just swallowing like they do with ther dry food. THe dogs have had great fun with their pork shoulder bones and pigs trotters although it has caused my miniature poodle to lose two of her teeth that were loose but even that hasnt stopped her chewing them to nothing I am going t try them on the beef bones next as they usually dont like beef flavoured dryfood and see if it pleases them, should be interesting.


----------



## fenwoman

kenneally1 said:


> I'm sorry,


Why are you sorry?


> but you are very rude women !


I am only one woman.



> And before you prattle on about living the good life,


 Did I mention anything about the good life?



> and your only telling it your way


Since I am me, who else's way would I be telling it????BTW, ITYM 'you're'


> remember manners cost nothing.


pot/kettle/black.

BTW your post was off topic :whistling2:

My dogs had raw eggs and fresh bones today.
I also give my rats fresh meaty bones from the butcher.




> Aside from that i generally respect your opinions, i just find your manners utterly lacking!


 Have you just repeated yourself?
What are my manners lacking in?


----------



## kenneally1

fenwoman said:


> Why are you sorry?
> I am only one woman.
> 
> Did I mention anything about the good life?
> 
> Since I am me, who else's way would I be telling it????BTW, ITYM 'you're'
> pot/kettle/black.
> 
> BTW your post was off topic :whistling2:
> 
> My dogs had raw eggs and fresh bones today.
> I also give my rats fresh meaty bones from the butcher.
> 
> 
> Have you just repeated yourself?
> What are my manners lacking in?



Oh dear:whistling2:


----------



## JPP

im gonna get my pup on this REAL diet as soon as possible: victory:

i started reading the thread and i think i know enough from the first 7 pages just need some tips for my pup please


----------



## pippainnit

Some really interesting stuff in this thread but, as I haven't been able to trawl through all fifty pages, I'm afraid this post is probably going to be VERY repetitive. 

I'm eager to start Willit (my 9 month old Husky/Mal/something) on a raw diet but aren't really sure how do go about it. I've read (on here) about the variety of things that can be used but how much is recommended? Generally, how many times a day, etc? He's been on kibble since I've had him from 12 weeks old with just the occasional bone and cooked meat. He's 9 months at the moment and weighs 7.5 stone (so he's a big boy!) 

Just not sure how to go about it initially. Is it recommended to wean them onto it or just start as you mean to go on?

Again, apologise if this has already been covered.


----------



## LoveForLizards

pippainnit said:


> Some really interesting stuff in this thread but, as I haven't been able to trawl through all fifty pages, I'm afraid this post is probably going to be VERY repetitive.
> 
> I'm eager to start Willit (my 9 month old Husky/Mal/something) on a raw diet but aren't really sure how do go about it. I've read (on here) about the variety of things that can be used but how much is recommended? Generally, how many times a day, etc? He's been on kibble since I've had him from 12 weeks old with just the occasional bone and cooked meat. He's 9 months at the moment and weighs 7.5 stone (so he's a big boy!)
> 
> Just not sure how to go about it initially. Is it recommended to wean them onto it or just start as you mean to go on?
> 
> Again, apologise if this has already been covered.


How much depends on the individual Dog..for a 47kg pup 1300-1400g should suffice depending on how much exercise he gets, once he's an adult he will eat quite a lot due to the breed and the exercise they need, though. : victory:
Again how you switch depends on the individual Dog..for a Dog with a sensitive stomach it'd be best to slowly wean over where as if he has a relatively strong stomach then you can switch over quicker...if he has 2 meals a day I'd say feed less on the first feed, give bones in the middle of the day, feed as normal on the second feed, feed BARF the following morning and no kibble, feed mid day bones, feed second meal as normal, the next day feed all BARF and see how he goes. : victory:


----------



## tinyrottie

I googled BARF and got linked to this thread and I have to say after reading the entire thing that this is the most amazing and helpful thread ever! There are some great ideas, suggestions, problem solvers and money savers on here and I would just like to say thanks to everyone who contributed, I am now saving a small fortune because of you!!! Keep up the good work!


----------



## Skunk

I'm a vegetarian and both of my dogs get fresh bones from the butchers, with blood, tendons, marrow, knuckle joints, the whole lot. Of course, it's not a daily thing, but I know it does them good.


----------



## mrsphas

> How much depends on the individual Dog..for a 47kg pup 1300-1400g should suffice depending on how much exercise he gets, once he's an adult he will eat quite a lot due to the breed and the exercise they need, though.


i have fed my dogs barf for quite some time and if i fed this much to my present danexcorso hed be an elephant [hes only a hippo at the moment]
adult low/medium activity = 2% of bodyweight
adult medium/high activity= 3% body weight
divided over two meals

so my present 2 yr old foster at 35kg gets 700g over 2 meals
my 2yr old danexcorso at 45kg gets 900g over 2 meals
my 14 yr old yorkie gets 200g over 2 meals and can still walk/run/play as far and hard as the two 2 yr olds, in fact he acts like hes 10 years younger
none including the 14yr old have ever had teeth scraped or removed

a 9month old 47kg dog should be having around a kilo to 1500g spread over 3 meals, depending on how active he is
but as he gets older [over 18months] he should be taken down to 2/3% of body weight not eat masses more

the veg and fruit slop IS important as in the wild all of the carcass is eaten, so when the dog eats the stomach he eats all the contents too, the veg and fruit slop replaces it
i use
1 kg of raw fruit and vegetables normally from the following list;

apples
pears
strawberries
peppers
courgettes
broccoli
carrots
tomatoes
spinach
kale
cabbage
plus
a couple of eggs, including shells!!. All of this has to be blended to a complete mush to make the slop. then add to this a half a large carton of natural yoghurt, couple of tablespoons of honey and a few cloves of garlic, a packet of liver and 500g of minced chicked with bone
i divide into 400g bags and freeze - defrost overnight
thats their breakfast most days

also, as i cant be bothered to read all 50 odd pages, so this may be a repeat, you should barf treat your dogs when training, using liver cake or similar, a training session can get through 200g of treats which is a lot of crap to introduce if your using commercial treats

is it any wonder i cant get a man when i permenantly smell of barf lol


----------



## AussieHerps.com

Awesome post mate really good advice.


----------



## JPP

mrsphas said:


> i have fed my dogs barf for quite some time and if i fed this much to my present danexcorso hed be an elephant [hes only a hippo at the moment]
> adult low/medium activity = 2% of bodyweight
> adult medium/high activity= 3% body weight
> divided over two meals
> 
> so my present 2 yr old foster at 35kg gets 700g over 2 meals
> my 2yr old danexcorso at 45kg gets 900g over 2 meals
> my 14 yr old yorkie gets 200g over 2 meals and can still walk/run/play as far and hard as the two 2 yr olds, in fact he acts like hes 10 years younger
> none including the 14yr old have ever had teeth scraped or removed
> 
> a 9month old 47kg dog should be having around a kilo to 1500g spread over 3 meals, depending on how active he is
> but as he gets older [over 18months] he should be taken down to 2/3% of body weight not eat masses more
> 
> the veg and fruit slop IS important as in the wild all of the carcass is eaten, so when the dog eats the stomach he eats all the contents too, the veg and fruit slop replaces it
> i use
> 1 kg of raw fruit and vegetables normally from the following list;
> 
> apples
> pears
> strawberries
> peppers
> courgettes
> broccoli
> carrots
> tomatoes
> spinach
> kale
> cabbage
> plus
> a couple of eggs, including shells!!. All of this has to be blended to a complete mush to make the slop. then add to this a half a large carton of natural yoghurt, couple of tablespoons of honey and a few cloves of garlic, a packet of liver and 500g of minced chicked with bone
> i divide into 400g bags and freeze - defrost overnight
> thats their breakfast most days
> 
> also, as i cant be bothered to read all 50 odd pages, so this may be a repeat, you should barf treat your dogs when training, using liver cake or similar, a training session can get through 200g of treats which is a lot of crap to introduce if your using commercial treats
> 
> is it any wonder i cant get a man when i permenantly smell of barf lol


usefull post thanks
ive been feeding my ebt pup 5.5 months old now on 10% body wieght is this too much?
also im gona try the thing you do for breakfast as he wont eat kidney or liver sometimes


----------



## freekygeeky

BARF is still doing well in my house, they have become picky about chicks/heart/bones/rabbit/wings they will hardly touch it anymore... hmm

I have been to the vets a few times with other issues, 3 out of my 5 cats are overweight, so will ALL be going on a strict diet. Naughty naughty.

Ginger has become obsessed with tomatoes recently... how unusual?


----------



## mrsphas

JPP said:


> usefull post thanks
> ive been feeding my ebt pup 5.5 months old now on 10% body wieght is this too much?
> also im gona try the thing you do for breakfast as he wont eat kidney or liver sometimes


no 10% is fine spread over three meals, dont start to cut down until at least 18months, unless hes really starting to gain weight [bad for his joints] which is why its so important to keep an eye on their weight at such an age, otherwise a quick growth spurt can catch you unawares and your 10% suddenly becomes 5%
or
isnt having enough exercise, which should be 4x15 mins onlead walks at this age to protect his growing bones, plus other play, no jumping, but ive never met an ebt that could resist a game of tug [sorry if that a bit teaching granny, didnt mean it to be]

can i just please point out, 
im no expert, 
tis just what ive found works through trial and error over the years, long before barf was fashionable or even given a name lol and ive had my swings back to dried because of ease or getting galled by the 'new improved' or nagged by a vet, just like anyone else, but ive always come back to barf in the end

nice ebt by the way, one of my fave breeds


----------



## mrsphas

sorry to double post but i thought people might like this
its not my recipe by any means, i just googled microwave liver cake and up it popped

It is really easy to make - ingredients:

1lb liver
1lb granary flour - try not to use white unless absolutely necessary, barf aims to keep refined grains out of the diet
3 eggs -shells added too
2 cloves garlic (optional) - or do what i do and use a teaspoon of dried or lazy
1 teaspoon oil
splosh of milk

Liquidise liver with eggs, milk, oil & garlic in blender.

Add to flour & mix

Put into a microwavable dish & hollow it slightly in middle, then cook on full power for about 10 mins.

Cut into slices & freeze.

Defrost when ready to use - don't defrost too much at once as it goes mouldy quite quickly (as if it would get a chance to!) 

Dogs would kill for this!

It is extremely useful for training if broken up into small pieces.

believe me, when my lot are fed up of training exercises for praise, this will get them shifting again and performing like crufts winners [ i wish:lol2:]


----------



## JPP

mrsphas said:


> no 10% is fine spread over three meals, dont start to cut down until at least 18months, unless hes really starting to gain weight [bad for his joints] which is why its so important to keep an eye on their weight at such an age, otherwise a quick growth spurt can catch you unawares and your 10% suddenly becomes 5%
> or
> isnt having enough exercise, which should be 4x15 mins onlead walks at this age to protect his growing bones, plus other play, no jumping, but ive never met an ebt that could resist a game of tug [sorry if that a bit teaching granny, didnt mean it to be]
> 
> can i just please point out,
> im no expert,
> tis just what ive found works through trial and error over the years, long before barf was fashionable or even given a name lol and ive had my swings back to dried because of ease or getting galled by the 'new improved' or nagged by a vet, just like anyone else, but ive always come back to barf in the end
> 
> nice ebt by the way, one of my fave breeds





mrsphas said:


> sorry to double post but i thought people might like this
> its not my recipe by any means, i just googled microwave liver cake and up it popped
> 
> It is really easy to make - ingredients:
> 
> 1lb liver
> 1lb granary flour - try not to use white unless absolutely necessary, barf aims to keep refined grains out of the diet
> 3 eggs -shells added too
> 2 cloves garlic (optional) - or do what i do and use a teaspoon of dried or lazy
> 1 teaspoon oil
> splosh of milk
> 
> Liquidise liver with eggs, milk, oil & garlic in blender.
> 
> Add to flour & mix
> 
> Put into a microwavable dish & hollow it slightly in middle, then cook on full power for about 10 mins.
> 
> Cut into slices & freeze.
> 
> Defrost when ready to use - don't defrost too much at once as it goes mouldy quite quickly (as if it would get a chance to!)
> 
> Dogs would kill for this!
> 
> It is extremely useful for training if broken up into small pieces.
> 
> believe me, when my lot are fed up of training exercises for praise, this will get them shifting again and performing like crufts winners [ i wish:lol2:]


thanks again
just fed him some bolognaise and he destroyed it, and then i thought il put some liver in too, now he wont eat it and looks at me as if asking why did i do that :lol2:


----------



## LoveForLizards

mrsphas said:


> i have fed my dogs barf for quite some time and if i fed this much to my present danexcorso hed be an elephant [hes only a hippo at the moment]
> adult low/medium activity = 2% of bodyweight
> adult medium/high activity= 3% body weight
> divided over two meals


I was going off of the basis of a pup. In the end, it's only a guideline and not gospel, just as with any other diet, if the dog is putting on weight (by which I mean getting fat, weight isn't much to go by especially with maturing/growing dogs), it needs less, if it is losing weight, it needs more.


----------



## Dave W

just reading some comments etc from this thread 
and i thought i would post what we feed our dogs.

we have a staffy and a rott x gsd

5 days a week they get raw meat from the butcher with a little mixer biscuit.
1 day a week they get just raw bones
1 day a week they get cooked rice pasta veg and for pudding a banana

they always eat it no hassle lovely gleaming coats healthy teeth nice poop lol

it works for us and they seem very happy

plus it's cheaper than dry food even the cheap dry food works out more expensive


----------



## zoe6660

wow i just seen this thread im still a bit unsure how this works but if you do it correct and vary it u can feed rodents like rabbit, mice and stuff to your dogs could someone put down they meal for a week so i can understand it a bit more its confusing alot lol.


----------



## mrsphas

week food for darcy - he weighs 45kg so gets 500g - 900g [ rthe recommended 1- 2%body weight for non working dog, ] of food weighed out correctly everyday [my others all get similar just adjusted for their weight] if hes been particularly active one day [ like training day or whole day working] hell get the heavier feed and vice versa

morning he gets a 250-400g pack of slop [recipe given previously]
around 6pm he gets 250-500g of either
chicken wings
tinned pilchards in tomato sauce [actually i dont weigh this i just give him the contents of a large tin]
tripe, minced or chunks, in this weather he loves the mince frozen, meat lollies anyone?
beef chunks
fish complete with head n guts, just freeze first to make sure no live worms or flukes
rabbit, in the fur and unpulled if i can get it, but not wild as i dont like the thought of him eating a myxi rabbit
pheasant when in season, again feathered and unpulled if possible


twice a week at tea time its a raw meaty bone, preferably the shin part so has marrow to get too as well, rather than meat, this helps keep their teeth clean as well as for calcium and occasionally hell get a half a chicken carcass for the same reason

its not an exact science and some dogs will eat stuff others wont, so its trial and error as to what your dog will eat

personally though id never feed my dogs rodents, theyre for the snake


----------



## zoe6660

what food raw could i feed:
rabbit
chicken
beef



please add soo i got a idea and what they can have. thanks
im starting to understand and my ferrets can have this too?


----------



## littleblossom

I'm really gutted as I have fed our two staffies a raw diet for years but my old girl (14 yrs) can no longer handle it and has the runs after most meals. Has anyone else found age to be a factor? 
There again we put our rescue neopolitan mastiff on it when we got him and it didnt suit him either!! 
They are both on a complete now :?


----------



## mrsphas

without knowing what you feed theres no answer to your question really,


i feed my 14yr old yorkie on it and hes in the best of health, in fact after years of treatment by vets due to a skin condition [pre me as hes a rescue] within 6 weeks of being on barf the skin condition had disapeared and he had new hair growing over his back end and no more steroid treatment or special shampoos:2thumb: and he can keep up with the bigger dogs on walks no problem, at 14 to be excited about doing three 2 mile walks a day and still chasing rabbits in the field, i think, is fantastic

remember tho all dogs are different what works for one maybe isnt for another, i just speak for my dogs, no one elses. If they were better on something else then id change to that, truth is theyre not and have never been healthier


----------



## MissCat

I really want to switch my Greyhound and Lurcher to the BARF diet now!
Just got to read a little more and try to source decent food for them. 
Also going to need to find out exactly what and how much to feed them.


----------



## Shelley66

I don't believe in the Barf diet, a dog is a carnivore so it only needs meat, offal and bones. I suppose I am more of a Raw Meaty Bone person, though I don't stick to the rules of that 100% either.

People make feeding their dogs so difficult!! I don't weigh anything, I just feed the dogs, you soon get to know what amount to feed them. If they look like they have lost weight (feel their ribs and back) then I give them more meat, if they look like they are putting weight on then I cut back on what they are having. That simple.

Dogs can eat all meat... I only use meat that is for human consumption, apart from green tripe! When starting out on a raw diet you should stick to one protein until the dog gets used to it, chicken is often the one of choice... Or green tripe. Once you know the dog can cope with the one protein, then you try some of another and so on. Don't try adding offal (liver, heart, kidney ect) too soon as they are great for giving the dog an upset tum. And don't stress about a balanced diet, it doesn't need to be balanced on a daily or weekly basis.... just over a month or so. You don't see wolves eating a balanced diet, they eat what they can get hold of at the time.

My dogs eat: chicken, turkey, rabbit, pork, lamb, duck, beef, green tripe, sardines, pilchards, eggs, heart (from any animal), kidney, liver, chicken carcasses, wings and necks, turkey necks and bones which my butcher gives me for free... And I don't mean cow leg bones, I mean backs, necks, ribs and even tails from all animals. I buy most of my meat at the supermarket or the butchers, my butcher orders in chicken carcasses, chicken necks and wings, turkey necks and hearts for me as I buy them in bulk and put them in one of the doggie freezers... I have 4 freezers for my dogs!

My tip of the day.... If the dogs poo is loose, give more bone, if your dog is a bit constipated give liver!! 

Oh and make sure that when you give a piece of meat and bone it is big enough that the dog can't just swallow it, that causes a risk of things getting stuck. I give my Cocker's chicken wings, but I wouldn't give them to my Newfoundlands... My GSD's do have chicken wings though, because they take their time with their food.

The only supplement my dogs get is omega 3 in the shape of salmon oil.

Does anyone who feeds a raw diet know if you can buy turkey wings anywhere?

Raw fed, unvaccinated dogs ARE the healthiest!


----------



## mrsphas

Shelley66 said:


> I don't believe in the Barf diet, a dog is a carnivore so it only needs meat, offal and bones. I suppose I am more of a Raw Meaty Bone person, though I don't stick to the rules of that 100% either.


Bones And Raw Food same as RMB, just that many forum, espec US/AUS ones wont accept the acronym barf as they consider it a rude/slang word for vomiting 


> People make feeding their dogs so difficult!! I don't weigh anything, I just feed the dogs, you soon get to know what amount to feed them. If they look like they have lost weight (feel their ribs and back) then I give them more meat, if they look like they are putting weight on then I cut back on what they are having. That simple.


#

simple for us who've been doing it years and are savvy enough with it to be guided by our dogs AND tell our vet that they are wrong

not so simple for those who are just starting out, are used to feeding as per dry or tinned food guidelines [be ready to be amazed at how little your dogs eat when feeding raw as opposed to dry/canned] and/or those whose vet is encouraging them to feed certain vet approved foods or telling them that chicken bones will kill their dog [yes COOKED ones will splinter DONT feed them] or that one cant rear good puppies, or, puppies of certain breeds on raw



> Dogs can eat all meat... I only use meat that is for human consumption, apart from green tripe! When starting out on a raw diet you should stick to one protein until the dog gets used to it, chicken is often the one of choice... Or green tripe. Once you know the dog can cope with the one protein, then you try some of another and so on. Don't try adding offal (liver, heart, kidney ect) too soon as they are great for giving the dog an upset tum. And don't stress about a balanced diet, it doesn't need to be balanced on a daily or weekly basis.... just over a month or so. You don't see wolves eating a balanced diet, they eat what they can get hold of at the time.


yes actually wolves do eat a balanced diet, if theyre fealing ill or constipated they will eat more of the lights or stomach INCLUDING the contents therein, they will often feed their pups more boney stuff and less protein stuff to encourage good calcium absorption and healthy but slow growing bones, or, give smaller weaker pups more protein to build their muscles
*they* do it instinctively, our dogs rely on us to do it for them




> And I don't mean cow leg bones, I mean backs, necks, and even tails from all animals.


please be very careful when feeding anything containing vertebrae [that includes tails], in the wild its not eaten and i know of a Carne Corso [a dog with a mouth, gullet and stomach which is hippo sized]who's having to be handfed soft food at the moment *and* very lucky to be alive, after a nasty incident whilst being fed meat containing vertebrae, it can get lodged in the esophagus if fed whole, even with a good chewer, which this dog most certainly is.
Latest advice is anything containing whole [instead of halved] vertebrae [including tails] should be avoided



> My tip of the day.... If the dogs poo is loose, give more bone, if your dog is a bit constipated give liver!!


if fed correctly, your dogs poo should never be either



> Oh and make sure that when you give a piece of meat and bone it is big enough that the dog can't just swallow it, that causes a risk of things getting stuck.


good advice and cannot be repeated often enough, if your worried about chicken wings, hold onto one whilst your dogs eat, itll soon get the idea if it chews you let go, or feed a *FEW* frozen, they HAVE to chew then




> Raw fed, unvaccinated dogs ARE the healthiest!


please, even if you feed raw, get your dogs vaccinated, they might be healthy but they pose a risk to other dogs especially pregnant bitches and pups
if youve ever nursed and lost a dog with distemper or watched a pup die in your arms of parvo you'll never want to do it again
*and*
worm regularly without fail, more important on barf or rmb diet than any other
*and*
IF youre going to feed any wild rodent [although i still advise against it] or your dog, like mine is a hunter given the opportunity or a river swimmer, they should be vacc'd against lepto
*
ALERT --- personal opinion only *
boosters however are a personal thing, i get my dogs blood tested rather than routinely revaccinate
IF, however theyve gone more than 5 yrs between boosters, then i always have them redone
i NEVER vaccinate for KC tho, as i have fancy rats and the KC jab, being live, can be lethal to them


----------



## mrsphas

Shelley66 said:


> Does anyone who feeds a raw diet know if you can buy turkey wings anywhere?


from Landywood Pet Foods : Price List

65p for 454g but min order is £30 so youll either need a few dogs or a large freezer


----------



## Postcard

I feed my two on a rough estimation of BARF & I'm happy that it's the right choice and it's costing next to nothing. HOWEVER.

a) Can anyone give me advice on their opinions of feeding supplements, as neither of mine currently recieve anything.

b) Also. One of my dogs is hairless and elderly, one is prone to being overweight. Any recommendation particularly on good weight gaining foods, as she is a small eater & I don't like leaving bones out for her as fatty gets at them or they start to go hard. This makes me sound a bit of a muppet but hopefully someone will suggest to me the BARF equivelent of trickle feeders for dry food.


----------



## JPP

annabel said:


> I feed my two on a rough estimation of BARF & I'm happy that it's the right choice and it's costing next to nothing. HOWEVER.
> 
> a) Can anyone give me advice on their opinions of feeding supplements, as neither of mine currently recieve anything.
> 
> b) Also. One of my dogs is hairless and elderly, one is prone to being overweight. Any recommendation particularly on good weight gaining foods, as she is a small eater & I don't like leaving bones out for her as fatty gets at them or they start to go hard. This makes me sound a bit of a muppet but hopefully someone will suggest to me the BARF equivelent of trickle feeders for dry food.


i read on a bull terrier forum tripe is a good weight gainer


----------



## blade100

i'm considering going on the barf diet for my german shepherd.

now i've tried before with this diet and he either has very sloppy runny poo's or he struggles to poo cuz of the bones he's had and he whines out in pain when trying to pass his poo.

he is also quite overweight around 45kg he doesn't each much really only has about 100grams of arden grange in the morn and then 100grams again in the evening.he has a 1/4 of burns meat mixed in.he used to have tripe mixed in but he was gaining a bit more weight with the tripe.

the things that concern me are the sloppy poo's,and the struggling to pass the bones and then will he get fatter or lose any of his weight going on a raw diet?

he hasn't got anything wrong with his thyroid gland as we had that tested and it came back normal!

he only has a couple of treats in the day and thats all.

any advice on how to go about this raw diet would be greatly apreciated.
he loves chicken wings as every now and again he'll get these as a treat,along with bit of raw beef when doing us stew.
actually he loves all raw meats just it doesn't seem to agree with him.

i want him to go back on it,but my OH isn't so sure but after reading all about commercial dog foods and the crap that goes in casuing all health problems i want to change him to this raw diet.back when i grew up on my auncles farm my folks fed raw to there border collies i always remember the butcher's van coming and the dogs would get a huge bone as a treat.

thanks in advance
amy

p.s i've made my own thread in the other pets section similar to this post.


----------



## fenwoman

blade100 said:


> i'm considering going on the barf diet for my german shepherd.
> 
> now i've tried before with this diet and he either has very sloppy runny poo's or he struggles to poo cuz of the bones he's had and he whines out in pain when trying to pass his poo.
> 
> he is also quite overweight around 45kg he doesn't each much really only has about 100grams of arden grange in the morn and then 100grams again in the evening.he has a 1/4 of burns meat mixed in.he used to have tripe mixed in but he was gaining a bit more weight with the tripe.
> 
> the things that concern me are the sloppy poo's,and the struggling to pass the bones and then will he get fatter or lose any of his weight going on a raw diet?
> 
> he hasn't got anything wrong with his thyroid gland as we had that tested and it came back normal!
> 
> he only has a couple of treats in the day and thats all.
> 
> any advice on how to go about this raw diet would be greatly apreciated.
> he loves chicken wings as every now and again he'll get these as a treat,along with bit of raw beef when doing us stew.
> actually he loves all raw meats just it doesn't seem to agree with him.
> 
> i want him to go back on it,but my OH isn't so sure but after reading all about commercial dog foods and the crap that goes in casuing all health problems i want to change him to this raw diet.back when i grew up on my auncles farm my folks fed raw to there border collies i always remember the butcher's van coming and the dogs would get a huge bone as a treat.
> 
> thanks in advance
> amy


 When you tried BARF what exactly was he fed? Dogs need more than just meat and bones, they need vegetable matter too. Ideally whole carcase would be fed and that means fur, or feathers aswell as meat and bones. Did you feed the bones raw? Were you adding the Arden grange too? Treats should not be fed to a dog at all unless it is a reward for training.They are usually high in fat and basically [email protected]
Being fat is not solely a result of diet, it is a result of too many calories being eaten and not enough expended, so if your dog does nothing more than amble about on a lead once a day at snails pace, then he is a couch potato and should be fed accordingly. A large working breed like a GSD should get at least one half hour spell of hard off lead running once a day (mine is crazy about chasing a ball and will do so until she drops) and several playtimes in the garden too aswell as on the lead walks. They need to be off lead because you will not be able to run hard or fast enough for him to get proper excersize otherwise. My GSD would have the squits if I fed her nothing but muscle meat, but she gets a whole rabbit or cockerel, feathers, fur, feet, faces and all, along with wholemeal bread, or a plain terrier meal, plus grated carrots or a whole carrot as a 'treat', plus any leftovers in the form of cooked potatoes and veg.If you aren't able to feed a proper BARF diet, which involves some roughage, then you would be better off sticking to a complete diet. BARF is good for those who are willing to put in the time and effort to get the ingredients together (and I'm not talking a bit of stewing beef from the supermarket) but if you haven't the time to get proper ingredients and put in the time for a proper excersize routine which involved hard running, then stick to a calorie controlled complete diet for him.


----------



## blade100

reply to fenwoman

he was only on it for about a week to 2 weeks.
he was fed chicken wings,tripe,mince,eggs,lamb and beef chunks,bones from butchers,hearts all raw.no veggies no carcasses as i was in the process of getting some but then my fella didn't want to continue as he was "worried" for his dog.idiot that he is.

i was adding grange to it to try and wean him off the garden grange was told this off a gsd forum to get him used to the raw.gave him dry grange at nite,raw in the morn

blade gets 2 good 1 hour walks a day off lead down the fields nr us.he's never really ran about when off lead just likes to sniff and eat grass.
although he does have one of those ball sling shot things that he likes to chase after.

i only mentioned the beef stewing meat as he begs for some when i do the dinner so he's had a taste for that and loved it.

he loves butchers bones,infact any meat.

i found your post quite harsh,i'm new and learning about all this raw feeding as i want the best for my dog.
i come here and posted as i wanted help.
i tried to feed him raw before but never really had any proper help as to how to go about it,thats why i posted on here.

thanks
amy


----------



## mrsphas

if you read back over the last few pages youll see examples of what i feed mine - please note im not an expert and only give suggestions from my own experiences

id suggest you start with chicken wings/carcasses and go from there
yes expect runny poos for the first week or so as he gets rid of all the additives and crap from the previous diet [think of it as a detox and colon cleansing] and then the poos will firm up, smell less, be less in amount, go white and break down very quickly

If he has constipation then feed more muscle meat or slop [see previous posts for recipe] if he is loose, feed less muscle meat and more carcass meat. I only feed tripe once or twice a week as it can be very fattening [but they do love it] you soon work out what the right combo is

try and keep clear of any processed/refined grains and any dog biscuits/treats as these WILL cause windy tummys try not to mix kibble and raw, except when transitioning if your dog doesnt take to raw immediately, as, again, this can upset their tuimmies and put them back to square one
liver cake is good for training treats [again see previous posts for recipes] and use wholemeal flour or brown rice if a filler is needed

huge plus if you feed barf is less doggy smell/breath and the bones and sinews naturally clean their teeth and its mainly tartar that causes doggy breath smell- my 14 yr old has never had a dental since he came to live with us and was put onto barf, less wind, brighter and better coat
just adjust the feed until its right for your dog to maintain a natural weight
approx 
1- 2% body weight for inactive dogs so for a 35k dog youd feed max 700g PLUS slop, per day, divided between 2/3 meals 
3- 5% for active workers, again for 35k dog youd feed max`1250g PLUS slop, per day, divided between 2/3 meals


be careful with anything in the fur/feather unless you know where it comes from, i tend to freeze anything in the fur/feather plus any whole raw fish, then defrost before giving it to them to cut down the risk of mites/worms/flukes being passed on

you can even purchase frozen raw meat from big [email protected] [and other pet food stockists] that have ground bone in [nothng beats gnawing on a real one tho] and meals that already have fruit/veg in them,saving you having to make and add slop 

the main ones being
Natural Dog Food Pouches | Junior, Adult, Light & Senior Ranges
or 
Natural Frozen Pet Foods - Prize Choice - The Natural Food for Healthy Animals

it really isnt as difficult as some like to make out


----------



## blade100

Thank you mrsphas u have been a great help.the prize choice range is what I used to feed him before.just a quick question u say slop is that like veg and mince meats together?thanks again,Amy


----------



## mrsphas

blade100 said:


> Thank you mrsphas u have been a great help.the prize choice range is what I used to feed him before.just a quick question u say slop is that like veg and mince meats together?thanks again,Amy


go here, i think its the 4th or 5th post and i give my recipe for slop, well i say mine but it was one that i was given by another barf/raw feeder, so passed on to others like yourself
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/other-pets-exotics/76357-raw-feeding-barf-rmb-newbies-52.html

again i stress im no expert, just sharing my own experience


----------



## mrsphas

sorry to double post but ive found these in my tesco and the dogs seem to be going wild for them
i pkt is a meal for the three of mine so its huge value
Sabamar Sardines (800g) in Tesco | mySupermarket


----------



## blade100

thank you once again mrsphas you have been a great help.

as soon as i've been paid i will buy a 2nd freezer and then order from landywoods suppliers.: victory:


----------



## mrsphas

blade100 said:


> thank you once again mrsphas you have been a great help.
> 
> as soon as i've been paid i will buy a 2nd freezer and then order from landywoods suppliers.: victory:


why not put a wanted on freecycle?
thats where i got my dog freezer from:2thumb:


----------



## blade100

good idea!:2thumb:


----------



## blade100

ok so apart from my local butchers where else can i buy raw meat and bones from?
i know of landywoods but where else that delivers?

thank you
amy


----------



## mrsphas

The UK Natural Pet Food Shop
deliver

as do
Order - Natural Instinct

for fresh id stick to butcher
or
see if theres an abbatoir in your area


----------



## blade100

thanks again mrsphas : victory:


----------



## Postcard

Durham Animal Feeds :: DAF Petfood - Frozen Food

: victory:


----------



## blade100

thanks annabel thats a good one.


----------



## blade100

now then when giving heart and liver does it have to be cooked at all?

or is it all raw?

thanks


----------



## diamondlil

blade100 said:


> now then when giving heart and liver does it have to be cooked at all?
> 
> or is it all raw?
> 
> thanks


Raw all the way. I have to rinse all the blood from organ meat before Rosie will eat it though


----------



## blade100

ok thanks :2thumb:


----------



## mrsphas

hearts/kidneys/lights raw
liver i give in livercake as i have only one dog that will eat it as is


----------



## blade100

any extra vitamins,supplements at all to go in with the meats?

i know about the fruit and veg being made into a slop.

thanks
amy

p.s these any good?
http://www.thedogfoodcompany.co.uk/products.html


----------



## blade100

just made some liver cake and blade loves it.
i've cut it into small slices,can it be frozen?
and how long will it last before it goes off?

does it need to be kept in fridge or in cupboard?


----------



## blade100

ok so i went out to my butchers and got some chicken carcasses and lamb bones/ribs/legs.

here is blade enjoying his lamb leg
tonight for dinner he has a chicken carcass and slop.














































and this one is from a few month ago when he had some chicken wings.nom nom nom









getting an order from landywoods soon,bought him a freezer out the ad mag for £45 and its a good one too!
oh and we bought him a blender as well off ebay.:lol2:
thanks to everyone who helped me with the questions i asked about.:2thumb:


----------



## LoveForLizards

blade100 said:


> any extra vitamins,supplements at all to go in with the meats?
> 
> i know about the fruit and veg being made into a slop.
> 
> thanks
> amy
> 
> p.s these any good?
> The Dog Food Company - Products Page


If you're feeding a decent ratio of muscle/organ/bone and a little roughage, then you don't need supplements, however if you'd like the peace of mind and pinch of carnivore supplement dusted over the food a couple of times a week won't do any harm.
And yup, good.



blade100 said:


> just made some liver cake and blade loves it.
> i've cut it into small slices,can it be frozen?
> and how long will it last before it goes off?
> 
> does it need to be kept in fridge or in cupboard?


Yup, it can go in the freezer, just make sure it's baked dry first. It will last pretty much forever when frozen, but you may find the garlic will wear off quickly and of course after 3 months or so the general rule is that it won't have much nutritional value. If it is baked dry, it will last a good week or so before you will want to refresh the bath.
Kept in a cool cupboard in an airtight container.


----------



## Cleo27

This is a really interesting thread. Might be something I could look into in the future with my Staffie pup, Denzl. 
Do you need to start at a particular age? or just whenever?
Also could you just provide a dog with raw meats here and there, or is it once you start you need to continue?x
Thankyouxx


----------



## LoveForLizards

Cleo27 said:


> This is a really interesting thread. Might be something I could look into in the future with my Staffie pup, Denzl.
> Do you need to start at a particular age? or just whenever?
> Also could you just provide a dog with raw meats here and there, or is it once you start you need to continue?x
> Thankyouxx


You can start at whatever age you choose to, some breeders wean onto raw food, others have started older dogs of 8+. 
Just feeding raw occasionally would be fine, and highly beneficial to teeth/gums if you were providing bones. : victory:


----------



## Cleo27

So I could feed my pup for example a chicken wing or two here and there? Something I would love to do is just swapping entirely on to BARF, but my mum doesn't really want to she needs a little bit more persuading. I think its just the fact that dry food and such are just convenient, but i am very interested in giving at least a little bit here and there. Would I need to provide any supplements?

Thanks again.
xx


----------



## LoveForLizards

Cleo27 said:


> So I could feed my pup for example a chicken wing or two here and there? Something I would love to do is just swapping entirely on to BARF, but my mum doesn't really want to she needs a little bit more persuading. I think its just the fact that dry food and such are just convenient, but i am very interested in giving at least a little bit here and there. Would I need to provide any supplements?
> 
> Thanks again.
> xx


Yep, that would be fine, though it'd be best to feed the raw and the kibble in separate meals.

To be honest, unless _you_ are picky on what bit the dog is eating ('cause most dogs sure as heck aren't :lol2 it can be just as simple as feeding 'from a bag' if you have a stable supplier. For smaller dogs it may just be a case of chopping things up into smaller portions, separating portions into freezer bags and throwing them back in the freezer, then just get out as and when you need it. 
You don't need to feed any supplements on a balanced BARF diet, but you can feed a small amount if you want the piece of mind. Just keep in mind for a balanced BARF diet you need a good ratio of muscle/bone/organ (and some believe dogs should also have vegetables for a balanced diet. I personally don't and don't know anybody who has had a bad reaction to a BARF diet due to not adding vegetables to their diet, but each to their own) as each separate part contains different nutrients and vitamins, but this will also vary slightly from dog to dog. : victory:


----------



## em_40

Is it worth changing the diet over of a 13/14 year old cat?
He was fed commercial diet most of his life, but never really liked it so he often had and now always has real meat, but it's never raw. (It's my mothers cat now really since I moved out) She always cooks the meat and he doesn't have offle I don't think, mostly just the meaty part, which I guess isn't balanced but we she has a hard time getting him to eat anything else. He's a stressy cat and has really bad skin and has lost a lot of fur (from over cleaning out of stress). He goes through periods of being quite scrawny and ill looking, to looking good again. There's nothing a vet can do because it's stress related, but I can't help but think if he was eating properly and his weight was good then he might get better... but he is already 13/14 and quite old for a cat. 
She does have another cat there too though, who is younger. They have a problem with her getting too fat, 'cause she doesn't know when to stop. I think with cats it's quite difficult to be certain of what they are getting though as I'm sure the neighbour or someone else feeds the fat cat, and they go through rubbish etc. too... 

Does anyone here use the barf diet for cats? My mum is pretty stuck in her ways but if she goes to the butcher and can get a carcass for free as someone said, then I'm sure she'll be all for the magic word FREE. XD


----------



## LoveForLizards

Regardless of age, it's worth it if it suits the cat! We use a part BARF diet. 
With the younger cat, an RMB (Raw Meaty Bones) may stop him/her scoffing food so much, as it'll take it longer to eat and thus the cat will easily go longer without eating. Not so simple if it's getting fed elsewhere though lol.


----------



## jezzak

Right in going to sound like a tool now but ?
Everyone keeps going on about *ask your butcher for ? And they will probably give it you for free. Or they fill my freezer for £10! 
Any help here would be great as I dont have a clue what your on about. 
My local butcher charges £3 for a full rabbit so you lot must be doing something dodgey lol 

Thanks jeremy and coco 
(coco being the dog)


----------



## freekygeeky

scrappy stuff..
i can get bones for free
lambs spine for free
giblets for free

hearts i pay like 20p
chicken wings 5 p
chicken carcess works out at liek 10 p


----------



## jezzak

Oh right. :$
But obviously they are only bone because they are scraps rarther than a whole chicken ?


----------



## LoveForLizards

jezzak said:


> Oh right. :$
> But obviously they are only bone because they are scraps rarther than a whole chicken ?


A butcher won't sell _everything_ on a daily basis, go at the end of their working day and ask for scraps and left overs, they have to pay to have them taken away and disposed of, so they're usually more than happy for you to take them free (meat, bones and all)and call it quits just before they're closing up.
Also, iceland sell sizable bags of chicken portions for £1-3...


----------



## jezzak

Ohh I see I feel like a right tool now. Thanks for that

I just got my staffy a rabbit but I was to late so its been skined and gutted but hey lets see he she likes it


----------



## dreamer

Just to ask, seriously sonsidering swapping to the natural feeding diet so just doing a lot of research, is it ok to feed chicken wings/necks (i know i can get hold of) a few times a week with the rest of the days giving the lamb/tripe/beef meat you can get already frozen pet shops. Also i have been told to feed a wholemeal mixer in the mornings with the meat in the evening meal, does this sound ok? Btw im never going to be feeding the whole rabbits or pheasants or anything like that so im not a purist!! hehe.

Thanx


----------



## zoe6660

hey im still trying to understand this feeding type but wanted a guide i have boxer x she is about 29kg and a year old and a little yorkie x who about 5kg and 10 months old, i want to change they diet coz the boxer x dont get on with the bags of food they crap so i wanted to try both on this food,
could somone give me the price guide of what u pay for the meats please?
thanks


----------



## indie-03

hi everyone, i have a 9month old female staff, we got her when she was 4 and half months and she was being fed bakers which i stopped straight away as advised to by a lot of people, we put her on to ox heart which she loved and would always finsh every last bit how ever she has now gone completly off her food..we tried giving her tripe but she still was not interested...anyone got any advise what we could try?? she our first dog so we not sure best thing to try so any advise would be helpful...thanks


----------



## jeweled lady

You can use any other kind of meat, other than pork. Try braising it very slightly, that should bring her appetite back. I wouldn't worry, bitches often go off their food for a few days. She will eat when she is hungry, just make sure she is getting a good variety of meats, veg. and bone is very important.


----------



## jeweled lady

Why don't you try Landywoods, the Dog Food Company, or Natural Instinct?


----------



## mrsphas

jeweled lady said:


> You can use any other kind of meat, other than pork. Try braising it very slightly, that should bring her appetite back. I wouldn't worry, bitches often go off their food for a few days. She will eat when she is hungry, just make sure she is getting a good variety of meats, veg. and bone is very important.


no reason she cant eat pork, as long as its human grade
mine often have pork ribs and pigs hearts/kidney and liver

she needs a good variety of meat, muscle, organ, offal, fish, game and Raw Meaty Bones [RMB]
heart is muscle meat not organ meat 
liver and kidneys are organ meat -these may be refused so either dry and use as treats or make liver cake
tripe and lights are offal
bone end breast of lamb, beef and pork ribs, pigs heads, poultry drumsticks, wings and carcass, whole game [rabbit, hare, pheasant etc] are all RMB and should make up 70% of the weekly diet, the rest being made up of a mix of the rest + veg slop

well done for getting her off the Bakers, how that crap is still produced is beyond me, go back to basics and start with chicken wings, minced chicken or beef [available frozen from [email protected]] or white fish and introduce a new food every 4-7 days until shes eating a good mix
have a read back through the thread and youll see recipes for 'slop' which is the veg mix, remember dogs need it put through a blitzer otherwise they cant break the cellulose down, [in the wild it would already be broken down in the stomach of their prey]

dont forget a huge sinewy bone from the butcher once or twice a week, this is not part of their diet but more a toy/flosser


----------



## Hesperia

labmad said:


> Personally, MANY people do not feed this way I beleive from 2 simple assumptions - 1.Fear 2.Ignorance(not meant in any bad way to anyone)


I'm going to be blunt and say that the ignorant one, is you. No offense.

Have you ever heard of factory farming? That's where mainstream meat comes from. The meat, especially when eaten raw, is extremely toxic and acidic. You can find the information all over the web, and there are even documentaries on the subject.

I recommend organic, free-range meats. The more natural and chemical-free the meat is, the better.


----------



## Meko

of course it's better.. but what point are you making?

Factory farming has nothing to do with anything; do you think the meat in tinned food is organic? if your answer is no, then how can the OP be ignorant when then RAW food and mean in tinned food would come from the same place and have the 'factory farmed' animals...

Although i get the impression you're just a typical trouble making lentil eating hippy without a tree to hug.


----------



## Hesperia

The point is extremely obvious.

Factory farming has everything to do with this because that is where the meat comes from, and the origin of the meat is important if you care about what is going to eat it. Especially in its raw form, factory farmed meats contains lots of live harmful bacteria.

Tinned food has nothing to do with anything.

Your impressions mean nothing to me, I posted here with good will because I know about the subject. If you think you can judge me just for being factual that's your problem.


----------



## Ginge_1987

Slightly confused by this whole thing, probably due to so many people having different opinions of whats right and whats not. Our Akita Harley refuses to eat any kind of tinned, dry dog food tbh i dont blame him i wouldnt eat it either. so where moving him to a BARF diet which went down well last night and this morning since he ate the whole lot  Its a miracle lol 

What im stuck with is people saying to add things like veg or rice and that meat/bone alone isnt good. I know Harley will eat things like carrott mashed potato etc so is it ok to give him this with the meat? 
Also what kind of meat do you guys find is best? He doesnt like kidneys our cats ended up eating them instead lol. 
How much meat/bone should i be feeding him a day? 
Last thing does anyone have a good recipe for liver cakes?

Sorry for all the questions.


----------



## Ssthisto

Hesperia said:


> Especially in its raw form, factory farmed meats contains lots of live harmful bacteria.


Any raw meat is likely to contain live bacteria, particularly dependent on how it's handled after slaughter. Raw meat is indeed acidic - fresh raw beef is an excellent source of vitamin C. 

But for just a touch of perspective... I routinely eat "minimally cooked" commercially obtained meat (read that as "I heat up the surface a bit, but it's raw and often cold through the middle"). I don't tend to eat undercooked chicken because I don't like the texture much, but raw red meats and the occasional raw-ish pork? Yep.

A dog's digestive system *should* be better able to cope with raw meat (and carrion, and the accompanying bacteria) than a human's. But yes, sourcing quality meat - whether it's for you OR your pets - is important.


----------



## stonesy

bril thread av fed my dogs faw meats nd bones from a pup and just look at them now man massive nd fit as a anythink


----------



## kellogg

Really good thread, i feed my 5 month old staff on the RMB rather then BARF, and he gets no fruit/veg apart from the odd carrot which he gets as a treat as he enjoys them especially frozen  When we first got him he was being fed on tesco value puppy kibble, so we put a stop to that immediately, now he is full of life and is coat is amazing soft and shiny!


----------



## kellogg

Oh does anyone know of a place i get rabbits from around the sheffield area or online, i've been to the local butchers but they said it's to expensive for them to stock and the local abattoirs were no help?


----------



## jeweled lady

kellogg said:


> Oh does anyone know of a place i get rabbits from around the sheffield area or online, i've been to the local butchers but they said it's to expensive for them to stock and the local abattoirs were no help?


You can get them from the Dog Food Company.


----------



## kellogg

thanks


----------



## 123dragon

i know you say the dog should have to chew the meat into pieces but when i take my dogs hunting for their food they catch a lot of mice and song birds is it ok that they can basically eat them in one piece.
i live with my mum and she wont let me feed raw so they are on tinned food:bash:
because of this most nights i take them to a local farm and between the two of them they normally take down a rabbit to share and also the odd mouse or rat they dig up and like i say the odd bird
so does this diet sound ok as its the best i can do 
ps they are two jack Russell


----------



## Shelley66

123dragon said:


> i know you say the dog should have to chew the meat into pieces but when i take my dogs hunting for their food they catch a lot of mice and song birds is it ok that they can basically eat them in one piece.
> i live with my mum and she wont let me feed raw so they are on tinned food:bash:
> because of this most nights i take them to a local farm and between the two of them they normally take down a rabbit to share and also the odd mouse or rat they dig up and like i say the odd bird
> so does this diet sound ok as its the best i can do
> ps they are two jack Russell


 I have been feeding a RMB type diet to my 7 dogs for years now.... And strangely they haven't seen a vet since we started down this route.

If your dogs are eating rabbits, mice an birds they are getting a far better diet than those fed the dried so called dog food!!


----------



## Emma30

This thread has certainly opened my eyes, Im one of those gullible people who totally believed that so called proper dog food (tinned/commercial) was the best way to go! no bones whatsoever, I am totally changing my mind. My other half is always going on about how dogs/wolfs use to eat in the wild and to give them bones and stuff, and im always nagging at him saying "*No normal dog food is best dont be giving the dogs anything else"* Im sorry Rob i was so wrong!!

I have 2 Jack Russells and im going to be doing alot of research on this way of feeding as Im pretty convinced that this is the way to go thanks to this thread

If anyone wants to give me any advice please feel free to pm me as Im going to need it :lol2:


----------



## NickBenger

kellogg said:


> he gets no fruit/veg


Remember dogs are omnivores, whilst they should have mainly meat... Personally I think fruit and veg should be fed aswell.


----------



## mrsphas

TheDogMan said:


> Remember dogs are omnivores, whilst they should have mainly meat... Personally I think fruit and veg should be fed aswell.


this is where opinions divide, between prey model, barf, rmb and the thousand and one other variations out there

personally, i feed the slop i have mentioned before as i feel that when a dog catches a rabbit, hare, mouse, bird or whatever, that they eat the _whole animal,_ stomach, contents and all

However, dogs stomachs are not made to process _*raw*_ fruit and veg, most ruminants and other purely vegetarian animals either have more than one stomach, are huge, like elephants, rhinos and giraffes or are coprophagic like rabbits[they eat their own poo, or rather the pellets they pass alongside their softer poo] to allow the most nutrients to be gained from the diet as possible, therefore those who do feed fruit/veg lightly blanche them, and then push it all through a food processor

i do this as i have come to the conclusion over the years, from doing my own research, that dogs *not* fed slop, tend to lean towards becoming coprophagic themselves, as theyre not getting the full amount of nutrients they need and will scavange the poo of other dogs, foxes and even rabbits, horses and cows
for me, having a dog roll in fox poo is bad enough, the thought of them eating it is just

The best thing you can do is what youre doing right now, research research and research some more and, if possible, find someone who feeds one of the raw diets and talk to them, see how their dogs are doing, where they source their meat from etc


----------



## NickBenger

mrsphas said:


> this is where opinions divide, between prey model, barf, rmb and the thousand and one other variations out there
> 
> personally, i feed the slop i have mentioned before as i feel that when a dog catches a rabbit, hare, mouse, bird or whatever, that they eat the _whole animal,_ stomach, contents and all
> 
> However, dogs stomachs are not made to process _*raw*_ fruit and veg, most ruminants and other purely vegetarian animals either have more than one stomach, are huge, like elephants, rhinos and giraffes or are coprophagic like rabbits[they eat their own poo, or rather the pellets they pass alongside their softer poo] to allow the most nutrients to be gained from the diet as possible, therefore those who do feed fruit/veg lightly blanche them, and then push it all through a food processor
> 
> i do this as i have come to the conclusion over the years, from doing my own research, that dogs *not* fed slop, tend to lean towards becoming coprophagic themselves, as theyre not getting the full amount of nutrients they need and will scavange the poo of other dogs, foxes and even rabbits, horses and cows
> for me, having a dog roll in fox poo is bad enough, the thought of them eating it is just
> 
> The best thing you can do is what youre doing right now, research research and research some more and, if possible, find someone who feeds one of the raw diets and talk to them, see how their dogs are doing, where they source their meat from etc


Interesting, I was unaware there were people feeding only meat. I already feed raw however my diet includes various veg aswell. 

You say dogs stoumachs aren't made to process raw fruit and veg, but it was my understanding that the stoumach of the dog has changed very little from that of the wolves, and wolves will eat berries amongst meat etc. in their diet. So surely they are adapted to eat some fruit rather than just meat?


----------



## mrsphas

TheDogMan said:


> Interesting, I was unaware there were people feeding only meat. I already feed raw however my diet includes various veg aswell.
> 
> You say dogs stoumachs aren't made to process raw fruit and veg, but it was my understanding that the stoumach of the dog has changed very little from that of the wolves, and wolves will eat berries amongst meat etc. in their diet. So surely they are adapted to eat some fruit rather than just meat?


but not fruit such as apples bananas and pears [all of which i add to mine amongst other stuff] berries arent actually fruit per se, theyre seeds or drupes and most pass through unchanged. wolves eat them when food is scarce, to fill them and give them short bursts of energy to help them be able to hunt for longer and at a higher speed, they act pretty much like us having a sugar rush
berries are also eaten to help with the softening and passing of stools, those who feed RMB will know, that too much bone will give your dog rocks for poo and can cause severe constipation, wolves dont have us to balance their food for them, so they self medicate

but as i said earlier theres as many disagree, as those who agree, about adding fruit and veg and all viewpoints should be respected, as people know what works for _their_ dogs, its finding a balance and doing research of your own, that makes it work for you and your dog

Btw, all this is making it sound much harder than it really is, its cleaner, easier, better and the end result is dogs in good health - in the main [cos there'll always be the one or two :whistling2:]


----------



## NickBenger

mrsphas said:


> but not fruit such as apples bananas and pears [all of which i add to mine amongst other stuff] berries arent actually fruit per se, theyre seeds or drupes and most pass through unchanged. wolves eat them when food is scarce, to fill them and give them short bursts of energy to help them be able to hunt for longer and at a higher speed, they act pretty much like us having a sugar rush
> berries are also eaten to help with the softening and passing of stools, those who feed RMB will know, that too much bone will give your dog rocks for poo and can cause severe constipation, wolves dont have us to balance their food for them, so they self medicate
> 
> but as i said earlier theres as many disagree, as those who agree, about adding fruit and veg and all viewpoints should be respected, as people know what works for _their_ dogs, its finding a balance and doing research of your own, that makes it work for you and your dog
> 
> Btw, all this is making it sound much harder than it really is, its cleaner, easier, better and the end result is dogs in good health - in the main [cos there'll always be the one or two :whistling2:]


Interesting, you obviously have a lot of knowledge on the subject thanks for sharing it. I know bits and pieces, enough to know that feeding my dog raw is a hell of a lot better than feeding it bakers, pedigree or some other commercial rubbish... :2thumb:


----------



## sensi5446

Hi RFUK 

As you may or may not know I recently got my beautiful lab puppy Sparky through this site and he's coming on great  

One of the first things I did was try and get the best puppy dry food I could so went for james wellbeloved, I was still not happy with it so have been looking at other options and came across this thread :2thumb: So today even though I've got almost a full 15kg bag of puppy food I decided to go with the RMB way of feeding and bought 1 kg of chicken wings to see how my boy takes to it. When I got in he knew it was time for his dinner so I took out the wings and showed him one :lol2: he looked at me like "what the hells this" so i praised him and he took a wing off me, within minutes he was chomping away like there was no tomorrow :mf_dribble: I've never seen him eat like this 

Anyway I'm gonna buy a book so I can read up more on this but thought I'd ask a few questions here as well so here they are : victory:


Where do you feed your dog? I would normally feed mine in his bowl in the kitchen but as this is raw meat and he moves around a lot with it I feed him today in the garden, is this ok?

How much do you feed? I gave him 2 wings today (had dry food this morning) which took him about 5-10 mins to eat but he wanted more but I don't want to over do it. Should I just feed him until he's done?

Whats the best way to get him to eat a bit of veg?

Thanks for any help 

cheers
Luke


----------



## sensi5446

sensi5446 said:


> Hi RFUK
> 
> As you may or may not know I recently got my beautiful lab puppy Sparky through this site and he's coming on great
> 
> One of the first things I did was try and get the best puppy dry food I could so went for james wellbeloved, I was still not happy with it so have been looking at other options and came across this thread :2thumb: So today even though I've got almost a full 15kg bag of puppy food I decided to go with the RMB way of feeding and bought 1 kg of chicken wings to see how my boy takes to it. When I got in he knew it was time for his dinner so I took out the wings and showed him one :lol2: he looked at me like "what the hells this" so i praised him and he took a wing off me, within minutes he was chomping away like there was no tomorrow :mf_dribble: I've never seen him eat like this
> 
> Anyway I'm gonna buy a book so I can read up more on this but thought I'd ask a few questions here as well so here they are : victory:
> 
> 
> Where do you feed your dog? I would normally feed mine in his bowl in the kitchen but as this is raw meat and he moves around a lot with it I feed him today in the garden, is this ok?
> 
> How much do you feed? I gave him 2 wings today (had dry food this morning) which took him about 5-10 mins to eat but he wanted more but I don't want to over do it. Should I just feed him until he's done?
> 
> Whats the best way to get him to eat a bit of veg?
> 
> Thanks for any help
> 
> cheers
> Luke


Anyone??


----------



## NickBenger

sensi5446 said:


> Hi RFUK
> 
> As you may or may not know I recently got my beautiful lab puppy Sparky through this site and he's coming on great
> 
> One of the first things I did was try and get the best puppy dry food I could so went for james wellbeloved, I was still not happy with it so have been looking at other options and came across this thread :2thumb: So today even though I've got almost a full 15kg bag of puppy food I decided to go with the RMB way of feeding and bought 1 kg of chicken wings to see how my boy takes to it. When I got in he knew it was time for his dinner so I took out the wings and showed him one :lol2: he looked at me like "what the hells this" so i praised him and he took a wing off me, within minutes he was chomping away like there was no tomorrow :mf_dribble: I've never seen him eat like this
> 
> Anyway I'm gonna buy a book so I can read up more on this but thought I'd ask a few questions here as well so here they are : victory:
> 
> 
> Where do you feed your dog? I would normally feed mine in his bowl in the kitchen but as this is raw meat and he moves around a lot with it I feed him today in the garden, is this ok?
> 
> How much do you feed? I gave him 2 wings today (had dry food this morning) which took him about 5-10 mins to eat but he wanted more but I don't want to over do it. Should I just feed him until he's done?
> 
> Whats the best way to get him to eat a bit of veg?
> 
> Thanks for any help
> 
> cheers
> Luke


Theirs no problem with feeding outside, remember you need to vary the diet as you can't JUST feed chicken wings. I'd google natural instinct dog food, that's what I use it's a more conveniant way of feeding raw. 

No don't feed him till he's done, he's a lab and will just keep going :lol2: If you do some googling you can usually find a guide for his weight. The best way to feed veg is either to just give it to them if they'll eat it or if not mush it all up and put it in a bowl with the meat.

Your local dog rescue place would happily take JWB off you :2thumb:


----------



## sensi5446

Thanks mate :no1:


----------



## NickBenger

sensi5446 said:


> Thanks mate :no1:


No problem, it can take a little getting used to feeding raw. It's definatly worth it though.


----------



## sensi5446

Picked up some good stuff from the butchers today, a load of chicken backs, wings, marrow bones, pig bones, chicken liver and chicken heart all for £5!!! :2thumb:


----------



## em_40

Does anyone here raw feed cats? 
I've got a new kitten and he doesn't like his dried food that much. 
Was wandering if a diet with mostly chicks, some mice and rats and also fish would be ok? plus whatever I could get cheap from a butcher?

When you start an animal on RAW is it correct that you should introduce new items slowly, and worry about adding variety later? he has had mostly fish for the last few days, sardines and salmon, but it isn't balanced because they are canned not whole.I was thinking of buying some mice today but now I'm thinking I should probably try and get some whole fish instead? can you get whole (little) fish? lol

He has biscuits down all the time, but he only eats a few, though he is tiny so I guess he doesn't need to eat much anyway. 

Also how do you get an animal to eat something it doesn't know is food? XD


----------



## em_40

anyone? :whistling2:


----------



## Zoo-Man

I've just started my 3 Chihuahuas & Boston Terrier on a BARF diet. Excited to see the difference in them after being on BARF for a while.


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

thread resurrection, i've been in favour of the raw bones diet and plan on having the puppy i'm getting later this year on it with no commercial food whatsoever, so i'm doing all my research now to find out if it's possible for me to do so with our budget etc

i found a couple of websites and wondered if anyone had experience with them.

the first is Natures Menu.co.uk, which i have used in the past, they just seem a little expensive these days.

the second is Nautral Instinct.com - i haven't researched delivery etc yet but does anybody have experience with these people??

i've heard of The dog food company but they are down in suffolk and i'm not sure yet if they deliver up to scotland, i'll hopefully get an email back or call to find out.

cheers


----------



## NickBenger

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> the second is Nautral Instinct.com - i haven't researched delivery etc yet but does anybody have experience with these people??


I've been using natural instinct for about 8 months, I really like it. I did the whole raw diet thing before that and it was a lot of fuss sourcing food etc. so decided to order from Natural Instinct as it's done for you. Delivery is always great usually comes quite quick, only ever had one issue and that was royal mails fault being plebs we weren't home so they decided to take it back to the mail centre although they usually leave it there as obviously it's frozen food we can pick it up when we get back, they left no message saying they had taken it back to there depot and then rang up and complained when there was blood on the floor because the food had defrosted :lol2: Natural Instinct refunded all of the food and just sent us a new batch without any moaning or messing around, so great customer service. I would certainly reccomend them :2thumb: Oh and I don't know if there still doing it but they had like a starter pack for like £10 or something last time I was on there website which was great value for what's in it.


----------



## Postcard

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> thread resurrection, i've been in favour of the raw bones diet and plan on having the puppy i'm getting later this year on it with no commercial food whatsoever, so i'm doing all my research now to find out if it's possible for me to do so with our budget etc
> 
> i found a couple of websites and wondered if anyone had experience with them.
> 
> the first is Natures Menu.co.uk, which i have used in the past, they just seem a little expensive these days.
> 
> the second is Nautral Instinct.com - i haven't researched delivery etc yet but does anybody have experience with these people??
> 
> i've heard of The dog food company but they are down in suffolk and i'm not sure yet if they deliver up to scotland, i'll hopefully get an email back or call to find out.
> 
> cheers


Pssst - think they technically count as commercial but I get what you mean! :lol2:

Does Landywoods deliver in your area? If you've freezer room, I'd give them a bell if I were you.

The best bet is finding a good butcher locally who does whole carcasses and see if they can help you out with the stuff they can't sell and bones and offal and chicken carcasses. Some butchers round us sell their bones for bonemeal and charge for them, but some are free.


----------



## goodwin1234

I currently feed my dogs on a mixture of dry food, and tinned dog meat. Sometimes I buy them a bag of chicken wings, or beef bones & they absolutely love it.

I quite like the idea of feeding them a completely raw diet, but the only thing that's putting me off is that i'd be unsure of exactly how much meat they are eating. I'd worry about under feeding them, so how do you guys know how much to raw food to offer. Obviously if you notice them visably losing weight then i should up their feed a bit, but i don't like the idea of them being hungry in the mean time.

Any advice please?


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

goodwin1234 said:


> I currently feed my dogs on a mixture of dry food, and tinned dog meat. Sometimes I buy them a bag of chicken wings, or beef bones & they absolutely love it.
> 
> I quite like the idea of feeding them a completely raw diet, but the only thing that's putting me off is that i'd be unsure of exactly how much meat they are eating. I'd worry about under feeding them, so how do you guys know how much to raw food to offer. Obviously if you notice them visably losing weight then i should up their feed a bit, but i don't like the idea of them being hungry in the mean time.
> 
> Any advice please?


as far as i'm aware you want to feed them 2-3% of their ideal body weight. And you tend to use your individual dogs condition to judge whether they are getting enough or not. If you're feeding them too much they'll gain weight and if you dont feed them enough they'll lose weight, it's really that simple. 



annabel said:


> Pssst - think they technically count as commercial but I get what you mean! :lol2:


 :Na_Na_Na_Na: there's always one... :lol2: I'll look those people up and find out if they deliver here, i'm going to phone the place my local butcher gets his stuff from and find out how nice they are lol today i got a bunch of bones from the butcher for free.



NickBenger said:


> I've been using natural instinct for about 8 months, I really like it. I did the whole raw diet thing before that and it was a lot of fuss sourcing food etc. so decided to order from Natural Instinct as it's done for you. Delivery is always great usually comes quite quick, only ever had one issue and that was royal mails fault being plebs we weren't home so they decided to take it back to the mail centre although they usually leave it there as obviously it's frozen food we can pick it up when we get back, they left no message saying they had taken it back to there depot and then rang up and complained when there was blood on the floor because the food had defrosted :lol2: Natural Instinct refunded all of the food and just sent us a new batch without any moaning or messing around, so great customer service. I would certainly reccomend them :2thumb: Oh and I don't know if there still doing it but they had like a starter pack for like £10 or something last time I was on there website which was great value for what's in it.


thanks very much, glad to hear they're good like that, always helps if something unfortunate happens like the royal mail being involved lol


----------



## Zoo-Man

I get raw pet mince (heart, liver, etc) from a butcher not too far from us for 25p/lb, which is great. We bought £5 worth which will last us about 7 weeks lol


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

Zoo-Man said:


> I get raw pet mince (heart, liver, etc) from a butcher not too far from us for 25p/lb, which is great. We bought £5 worth which will last us about 7 weeks lol


you're too far from me and you has tinyful doggys!! i'm getting a dobermann lol


----------



## Zoo-Man

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> you're too far from me and you has tinyful doggys!! i'm getting a dobermann lol


:lol2:


----------



## kellogg

I use durham animal feeds they deliver to most places to


----------



## Sn0W

Been reading up, looking to start my cat on raw feeding and planning to get a dog end of the month and want to stick her straight on this.

One question, I read somewhere that bones of big animals such as cows shouldn't be fed except for ribs because they're too hard? Is this true? If so what other animal bones shouldn't be fed because they are too hard?

Thanks


----------



## oldtyme

Sn0W said:


> Been reading up, looking to start my cat on raw feeding and planning to get a dog end of the month and want to stick her straight on this.
> 
> One question, I read somewhere that bones of big animals such as cows shouldn't be fed except for ribs because they're too hard? Is this true? If so what other animal bones shouldn't be fed because they are too hard?
> 
> Thanks


what dog you got 
my otb do the cows easy


----------



## Sn0W

Dont have a dog yet but looking at getting a husky most likely. I've read that beef bones can be too hard and sometimes break teeth?


----------



## oldtyme

Sn0W said:


> Dont have a dog yet but looking at getting a husky most likely. I've read that beef bones can be too hard and sometimes break teeth?


i never had a problem with beef bones but i dont give them to pup


----------



## SilverSteno

Tesco had two chicken quarters for 36p yesterday, was soooo tempted to get them for my two! Probably should have!

We're investigating switching our two onto BARF. They currently have two days a week (my days off) where they are fed raw and Millie has recently started getting porridge for breakfast as I've heard it can help with anxiety - surprisingly it is helping to calm her down a bit, we haven't had her outside the bedroom insisting on the door being open, so to me it seems stupid to be feeding her that with the complete meat when I can get her a packet of raw meat and feed that instead with her porridge. They've been given raw bones once a week since I've had them - at their first vet check their teeth were that bad that the vet said they would probably need to get dental work done in May.  Last time though the vet was very surprised to see a massive improvement and they won't be needing dental work now so that has saved me a bit of money in itself!

The other reason is it makes things more convenient for myself. OH can't eat fruit or veg due to his allergies so any fruit or veg I get is for one, and that is expensive. The other day the small bag of carrots was 97p...for a big bag it was only £1! If the dogs are eating raw food that would be three of us munching our way through carrots so I could get the bigger bag instead and go for more of the offers and less would end up going to waste.


----------



## Zoo-Man

SilverSteno said:


> Tesco had two chicken quarters for 36p yesterday, was soooo tempted to get them for my two! Probably should have!
> 
> We're investigating switching our two onto BARF. They currently have two days a week (my days off) where they are fed raw and Millie has recently started getting porridge for breakfast as I've heard it can help with anxiety - surprisingly it is helping to calm her down a bit, we haven't had her outside the bedroom insisting on the door being open, so to me it seems stupid to be feeding her that with the complete meat when I can get her a packet of raw meat and feed that instead with her porridge. They've been given raw bones once a week since I've had them - at their first vet check their teeth were that bad that the vet said they would probably need to get dental work done in May. Last time though the vet was very surprised to see a massive improvement and they won't be needing dental work now so that has saved me a bit of money in itself!
> 
> The other reason is it makes things more convenient for myself. OH can't eat fruit or veg due to his allergies so any fruit or veg I get is for one, and that is expensive. The other day the small bag of carrots was 97p...for a big bag it was only £1! If the dogs are eating raw food that would be three of us munching our way through carrots so I could get the bigger bag instead and go for more of the offers and less would end up going to waste.


Since putting my Chihuahuas on the BARF diet, their teeth have been much cleaner, especially my oldest bitch. And Toy breeds are prone to getting manky teeth, so I was pleasantly suprised when we looked at Lolly's teeth the other day & they were pearly white. :2thumb:


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

here's a question for all you knowledgeable barfers..

i've been picking up the odd dead animal and gutting/skinning it and chopping off the head and feet then giving it to my bosses dogs (don't yet have my own) what i'd like to know is, do i have to do this or can i chuck the dead animal to them completely intact?? do they still need to be gutted but then fed complete with fur/head/feet or can they do the messy part by themselves?? or should i leave the icky guts inside and just lop off the head and feet???

personally i expect the dogs wouldn't know what to do with it if i just chucked it in as is... they'd probably play with it but not eat it... but i've heard they should be eating the fur as this helps 'clean out' their system??

i am slightly confuzzled.

i gave one of the flat coats a leg of a deer and he looked at me like i was daft, so i gave it to a different one and he started munching on it straight away, i then gave the first dog just chopped up raw meat from another leg and the leg bone and he ate the meat then chewed the bone... such a strange animal


----------



## SilverSteno

Is it just me or are there wayyyy too many different views on BARF diets? I don't know what to do!

My two love their fruit and veg so that will be included but what about porridge oats? How often can they be given porridge? And what about supplements? With the exception of the raw meat and porridge, they'll be eating the same things I eat in terms of fruit and veg (grapes being the exception) and I don't take supplements. I know the fruit and veg needs to be blended before serving.

Oh, and how many chicken wings make a meal for two collies? I gave them 4 each last night and that seemed to satisfy them but going by some places they should be eating double that!


----------



## Sn0W

Chicken wings are way too much bone for a stand alone meal unless you add a meal or two purely of boneless meat or a side of boneless meat. You should be feeding 2 - 3% of its weight if they aren't puppies I'm pretty sure. 

No idea on the porridge thing I'm afraid


----------



## SilverSteno

I've looked at a number of meal plans and most have had chicken wings as a stand-alone meal (some with veg, some with carbs). Though I get meat off cuts from the butchers which doesn't contain bone so if that is the case then I can do wings for breakfast and the beef for dinner.

On the plus side, I got a 1kg bag of carrots for 49p and at least now I know they'll get used up :lol2: rather than spending a pound on half the amount!


----------



## Zoo-Man

Supplements that I use as part of my dog's BARF diet include flax seed oil, honey, live yoghurt, kelp powder, cod liver oil, multi B vitamins, & vitamins C, E & K.


----------



## SilverSteno

They had chicken quarters for breakfast this morning with some blended veg I prepared and froze over the weekend! They certainly seem to be enjoying their new diet lol They got a whole raw egg each over the weekend too (they were going out of date). They get honey mixed into their porridge but will pick them up some cod liver oil, need to make sure their joints stay healthy! Though I must admit, I'm still a bit paranoid about the bones in the chicken!

Only problem is this is a bad time to switch. I've had plenty of time to research because I damaged my knee a few weeks back so have been unable to do too much...but of course Fly is gaining weight and I don't know if it's because she's getting fed too much or because I haven't been able to walk her as far as normal! We haven't been out on the bike either, she keeps tugging at my cycling jacket and nudging at the bike wanting to go out with it lol

The geckos have also taken advantage of the blended fruit mix I made at the weekend!


----------



## SilverSteno

Has anyone else found their dogs take more time with food when on the BARF diet? Just given my two a pigs ear which is normally gone in seconds but they actually settled down and took time to eat it instead today! It was as if they were more relaxed towards eating the pigs ear rather than the usual mad rush to get it down before the other finishes theirs.


----------



## Sn0W

If they used to rush then they were probably worried someone or something else would take it away. If they've slowed down now then they are probably more relaxed and less worried about loosing food.


----------



## SilverSteno

Well, its good they are feeling more relaxed! Fly did eat in the kitchen and Millie tends to take any large food items to the kitchen to eat so maybe this seperation has reduced tension over food.


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> here's a question for all you knowledgeable barfers..
> 
> i've been picking up the odd dead animal and gutting/skinning it and chopping off the head and feet then giving it to my bosses dogs (don't yet have my own) what i'd like to know is, do i have to do this or can i chuck the dead animal to them completely intact?? do they still need to be gutted but then fed complete with fur/head/feet or can they do the messy part by themselves?? or should i leave the icky guts inside and just lop off the head and feet???
> 
> personally i expect the dogs wouldn't know what to do with it if i just chucked it in as is... they'd probably play with it but not eat it... but i've heard they should be eating the fur as this helps 'clean out' their system??
> 
> i am slightly confuzzled.
> 
> i gave one of the flat coats a leg of a deer and he looked at me like i was daft, so i gave it to a different one and he started munching on it straight away, i then gave the first dog just chopped up raw meat from another leg and the leg bone and he ate the meat then chewed the bone... such a strange animal


anyone?


----------



## SilverSteno

Yes, you can feed the entire animal, this is done with the prey based diet model for which the dogs are only fed meat no fruits or vegetables/carbs. Feeding the whole animal means that the dog gets extra nutrition from the partially digested plant matter in the stomach/gut so people feeding a prey based diet don't give the dog vegetables or fruits. The fur apparently acts like fibre.


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

SilverSteno said:


> Yes, you can feed the entire animal, this is done with the prey based diet model for which the dogs are only fed meat no fruits or vegetables/carbs. Feeding the whole animal means that the dog gets extra nutrition from the partially digested plant matter in the stomach/gut so people feeding a prey based diet don't give the dog vegetables or fruits. The fur apparently acts like fibre.


thanks very much. now talking about an animal much bigger than a rabbit, like a deer, is it possible to hack it into pieces and feed a piece to each dog? i'm talking about my bosses dogs, she's got about 8 at any one time, right now there's 12. or would it not work like that?


----------



## SilverSteno

I don't see why not, that's all that happens to normal meat afterall. You can feed every part of the animal, even the skull (depending on the size of dog/skull) and I've seen deer hoof treats for sale so even they can be given to the dogs.


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

SilverSteno said:


> I don't see why not, that's all that happens to normal meat afterall. You can feed every part of the animal, even the skull (depending on the size of dog/skull) and I've seen deer hoof treats for sale so even they can be given to the dogs.


never thought of that. thanks.

next time i have something to give them i wont spend forever skinning and disembowelling it for them, i'll just hack it up :lol2:


----------



## Zoo-Man

Evilshiddenclaws, yes you can feed the entire animal, though obviously it would be better to remove any damaged or tyre-marked bits. 

PS, send me some deer! :lol2:


----------



## SilverSteno

I still can't quite get used to feeding chicken bones at the moment. How long didc it take others to get used to feeding wholed bits of chicken bone and all? I keep getting paranoid!


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

Zoo-Man said:


> Evilshiddenclaws, yes you can feed the entire animal, though obviously it would be better to remove any damaged or tyre-marked bits.
> 
> PS, send me some deer! :lol2:


naturally :whistling2: if i manage to find any more i might think about it :Na_Na_Na_Na:



SilverSteno said:


> I still can't quite get used to feeding chicken bones at the moment. How long didc it take others to get used to feeding wholed bits of chicken bone and all? I keep getting paranoid!


fresh raw bones are really soft compared to cooked bones. I fed the dogs the ribs from a young deer today and they had them eaten in seconds, plus if you ever have the pleasure of dismembering a rabbit or chicken or deer, the bones are easily broken/snapped so you can see how a dogs jaws make light work of it


----------



## Zoo-Man

SilverSteno said:


> I still can't quite get used to feeding chicken bones at the moment. How long didc it take others to get used to feeding wholed bits of chicken bone and all? I keep getting paranoid!


Honestly, dont worry. If my 4lb Chihuahuas can happily munch chicken bones without problems, your dog will be just fine! A dog's stomach acids can more than deal with raw chicken bones.



Evilshiddenclaws said:


> naturally :whistling2: if i manage to find any more i might think about it :Na_Na_Na_Na:


I'll expect the postman to try shoving a Roe Deer carcass through my letterbox by Saturday :whistling2:

:lol2:


----------



## connor 1213

Really looking for some help here...

I have a Jack Russle and a Yorkshire Terrier...I tried the BARF diet on monday... Chicken wings, pigs liver and a veg mix (potato, carrot, brocolli and apple)

They werent to keen on it...

But ate a small bit of each item...

From tuesday - wednesday my yorkie had an upset stomach...

I am just wondering: 
Would you say that i should continue to feed the BARF diet?


Cheers :notworthy:


----------



## Zoo-Man

connor 1213 said:


> Really looking for some help here...
> 
> I have a Jack Russle and a Yorkshire Terrier...I tried the BARF diet on monday... Chicken wings, pigs liver and a veg mix (potato, carrot, brocolli and apple)
> 
> They werent to keen on it...
> 
> But ate a small bit of each item...
> 
> From tuesday - wednesday my yorkie had an upset stomach...
> 
> I am just wondering:
> Would you say that i should continue to feed the BARF diet?
> 
> 
> Cheers :notworthy:


It was probably caused by the immediate change of diet. Nothing to worry about, it should settle on its own. I would continue to feed BARF, just monitor the dog's faeces.


----------



## connor 1213

Zoo-Man said:


> It was probably caused by the immediate change of diet. Nothing to worry about, it should settle on its own. I would continue to feed BARF, just monitor the dog's faeces.


 cheers mate!


----------



## Zoo-Man

connor 1213 said:


> cheers mate!


No probs bud, just keep an eye on things & Im sure there'll be no problems. :2thumb:


----------



## SilverSteno

connor 1213 said:


> Really looking for some help here...
> 
> I have a Jack Russle and a Yorkshire Terrier...I tried the BARF diet on monday... Chicken wings, pigs liver and a veg mix (potato, carrot, brocolli and apple)
> 
> They werent to keen on it...
> 
> But ate a small bit of each item...
> 
> From tuesday - wednesday my yorkie had an upset stomach...
> 
> I am just wondering:
> Would you say that i should continue to feed the BARF diet?
> 
> 
> Cheers :notworthy:


Liver is prone to causing upset tums especially when the dogs aren't used to it and even then it can often cause runny poos, it is recommended to leave the offal until a few weeks into the diet when the dog is more used to a raw diet.

Speaking of liver, there seems to be differing advice in how to feed that and other offal - some give an "offal day" and others suggest little and often so what do others do?

It's silly, I know all the facts about dogs being able to digest chicken but I still worry even when I'm listening them crunching it up into bits :lol2:


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

Zoo-Man said:


> I'll expect the postman to try shoving a Roe Deer carcass through my letterbox by Saturday :whistling2:
> 
> :lol2:


i've been driving the two roads morning and night for a year and only found one on each... you might be waitin a wee bitty longer for it :lol2:


----------



## SilverSteno

Can dandilion leaves be used as part of the veg mix? Got loads in the garden!


----------



## Zoo-Man

SilverSteno said:


> Can dandilion leaves be used as part of the veg mix? Got loads in the garden!


My dogs eat the dandelions in the back garden! I don't see why you cant add some dandelion leaves to the veg mix, as they are natural & are high in calcium.


----------



## SilverSteno

Woot! Will harvest some dandlions next time I make up some veg mix.


----------



## freekygeeky

Well here i am!! I've been feeding BARF for a few years now, but for the last 6 or so months my cats have been on normal ''cat food'' YUCK!! (as i have moved out, but moving back in in the next month) Horrible stuff, the cats coats look poo, their furs not as nice, they have constant runny poos!!

ANYWAY!! ... im wanting to go back to it, and i need to go back to it, scoobys lost alot of weight, and after a vet trip this week it was suggested to go back on to it...

They've had two days back on it, and blooming loving it!!

I've done quite a bit of reading in to it recently (again) and i was looking in to supplimenting with tablets/powder. And looking in to herbs, taurine etc.

I used to use a suppliment powder but i cannot find it on the internet! I forgot the name you see... its ''SA-132?'' or somthing like that.

Can anyone help me re supplimenting* taurine* and calcium and herbs and fish oil and etc etc

etc ?

http://www.dorwest.com/Catalogue/Dietary-Supplements/Keepers-Mix


----------



## freekygeeky

p.s suppliments for cats are quite expensive ...but they do them for humans too!

Cod Liver Oil Capsules (1000mg) | Cod Liver Oil | Holland & Barrett

Taurine Tablets (500mg) | Amino Acids | Holland & Barrett

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/cat_health/taurine/155861

http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/product_detail.asp?pid=35&prodid=231&cid=160&sid=0


----------



## freekygeeky

bumpy!


----------



## inkyjoe

im kinda sold on it. It sounds like a right royal pain in the arse, but for the benefits, Id say it would be worth it. 
Regarding rabbits/pheasant (this may have been answered already, but 65 pages was a bit much lol) does it not matter about the shot in them?


----------



## freekygeeky

inkyjoe said:


> im kinda sold on it. It sounds like a right royal pain in the arse, but for the benefits, Id say it would be worth it.
> Regarding rabbits/pheasant (this may have been answered already, but 65 pages was a bit much lol) does it not matter about the shot in them?


i get ferreted rabbits (therefore no shot).

its not a pain in the arse, its fully easy when you get in to it. 

i suggested it last time i was at yours, due to the size of your dog, the amount you spend on normal crap food must be well expensive! (im not saying you feed crap but i hate mass produced food)


----------



## inkyjoe

freekygeeky said:


> i get ferreted rabbits (therefore no shot).
> 
> its not a pain in the arse, its fully easy when you get in to it.
> 
> i suggested it last time i was at yours, due to the size of your dog, the amount you spend on normal crap food must be well expensive! (im not saying you feed crap but i hate mass produced food)



so shot is off the menu is it?
i cant see it ever being as fully easy, as ordering a huge bag of kibble (admittedly, very expensive kibble) online, and getting a crate of tinned food when i get tescos to deliver my shopping, but i'll give it a whirl


----------



## freekygeeky

inkyjoe said:


> so shot is off the menu is it?
> i cant see it ever being as fully easy, as ordering a huge bag of kibble (admittedly, very expensive kibble) online, and getting a crate of tinned food when i get tescos to deliver my shopping, but i'll give it a whirl


thing is once youve got it all in your freezer all you gotta do is defrost it..

So i have everythign ready in my freezer, i get it out the night before, done! other stuff that i have to do on the day include, oil, and egg etc .. not to diffiuclt. It beats the house smelling of cat poo, their poos are nice and solid and not smelly! WIN!


----------



## em_40

I believe people just take the actual shot out and feed the rabbit like that. I haven't tried rabbit yet, will have to see if I can find any nearby.

Do you all feed loads of supplements? Freekygeeky, you are talking cats so what do you feed? smaller portions of what the dog people feed or whole prey? My cat gets, mice, rats, chicks, fish (all whole) with the occasional chicken wing, and I don't spplement anything (but he has biscuits down incase he gets hungry in the day) All that supplememnting stuff makes it look really complicated :?


----------



## Kare

SilverSteno said:


> Speaking of liver, there seems to be differing advice in how to feed that and other offal - some give an "offal day" and others suggest little and often so what do others do?


I know that is months old but thought I would answer. I give one offal meal twice a week, normally one meal of chicken liver and one of tripe

I feed no more than three bone meals (chicken carcass etc) in a row then an offal as that counteracts the binding effect of the bone against the loosening effect of liver and the poops stay good and easy to pick up. :2thumb:

I do not ever mix two meat types together.

In a week my girls will eat 14 meals
6 bone based (say Chicken carcass/wings/thigh, turkey leg or (ferreted) rabbit carcass)
4 meat based (say Beef, lamb or rabbit)
2 offal based (say Liver or tripe)
1 oily fish and veg 
1 healthy scraps based (ie complete roast dinner with veg)


----------



## SilverSteno

Thanks Kare! I've started giving two half offal half regular mince meals a week (have it all blended in portion tubs in the freezer together as Millie won't eat kidney otherwise!). 

Will be fun soon, going on holiday with them! First holiday with the dogs on a BARF diet lol


----------



## Zoo-Man

inkyjoe said:


> *so shot is off the menu is it?*
> i cant see it ever being as fully easy, as ordering a huge bag of kibble (admittedly, very expensive kibble) online, and getting a crate of tinned food when i get tescos to deliver my shopping, but i'll give it a whirl


No, shot rabbit or pheasant is fine, you just have to remove the shot. I currently have a shot rabbit in my chest freezer, clean shot to the head. Im waiting til it is warmer here so I can dismember the rabbit outside, remove the head, & as I have Chihuahuas, cut the carcass up into more managable sized parts.


----------



## 1930sam

Zoo-Man said:


> I have Chihuahuas, cut the carcass up into more managable sized parts.


A full carcass and they would think all their birthdays had come at once lol


----------



## Kare

SilverSteno said:


> Thanks Kare! I've started giving two half offal half regular mince meals a week (have it all blended in portion tubs in the freezer together as Millie won't eat kidney otherwise!).
> 
> Will be fun soon, going on holiday with them! First holiday with the dogs on a BARF diet lol


Actually once I found it very useful to feed raw whilst away, because you have to take so little of it with you unlike with a special brand of kibble etc. Any butchers and any decent mini store in any little remote village anywhere and they will have something your dog eats, even if it is just a tin of fish or some eggs to scramble up with some veg. We were travelling home from Scotland a few years ago, cold January and we ended up stopping and staying in a tiny village on the borders (into England but barely) Was never going to have a pet store or really even a store with any decent dog food, but of course it did have a butchers and my dog was very happy with the lumps of chicken served.

Those packs of 400g minced meat from pet store freezers are good when travelling, you can pack a fair number in a good sized tupperware and because they are frozen they make the journey well each keeping the others cool, the centre ones are still frozen when I drive from Devon to Herts to see my Daddy!! I often tell my Dad I am heading to come visit him now and all he has to do for me is nip up the local shops and grab me some chicken pieces and a bottle of pepsi max!! They are the easiest to leave with dogsitters too for me, as my girls both have 600g a day I simply tell the carer they need a block each in the morning and share a block in the evening.


----------



## freekygeeky

em_40 said:


> Do you all feed loads of supplements? Freekygeeky, you are talking cats so what do you feed? smaller portions of what the dog people feed or whole prey? My cat gets, mice, rats, chicks, fish (all whole) with the occasional chicken wing, and I don't spplement anything (but he has biscuits down incase he gets hungry in the day) All that supplememnting stuff makes it look really complicated :?


You have to suppliment with cats unless you 100% know you giving them the right balance of stuff. They unlike dogs (i think) cannot produce taurine, and lack of taurine in cats is a bad thing.

I used to use a mish mash of suppliments in an all in one powder, but they no longer sell it, i have no found another supplier


----------



## Zoo-Man

em_40 said:


> I believe people just take the actual shot out and feed the rabbit like that. I haven't tried rabbit yet, will have to see if I can find any nearby.
> 
> Do you all feed loads of supplements? Freekygeeky, you are talking cats so what do you feed? smaller portions of what the dog people feed or whole prey? My cat gets, mice, rats, chicks, fish (all whole) with the occasional chicken wing, and I don't spplement anything (but he has biscuits down incase he gets hungry in the day) All that supplememnting stuff makes it look really complicated :?


I use supplements with my dogs - flax seed oil, honey, cod liver oil, kelp powder, vitamins, etc


----------



## em_40

well all a cat needs to eat is mice, so it is getting all the taurine it needs from being fed uncooked, whole prey right? 

He gets chicks, mice, multis and fish, all whole and some chicken wings and occasionally a whole egg though he doesn't like them much (going to try rats soon and maybe rabbits if I can get any cheap) he also eats a fair few crickets lol... I'd be scared of over doing the suppliments and getting the wrong ballance...
If you feed oily fish once a week why bother with oil? and what's kelp powder? :hmm:

Does everyone else supplement?

I found a supplement for cats http://tcfeline.com/ but it does say it's the next best thing to mice, so I think as long as it's all whole rather than just meat it's OK


----------



## freekygeeky

You can't over supplement I taurine, but if you under do it, it can cause serious harm. Salmon oil, they love it, and cheaper than fish.


em_40 said:


> well all a cat needs to eat is mice, so it is getting all the taurine it needs from being fed uncooked, whole prey right?
> 
> He gets chicks, mice, multis and fish, all whole and some chicken wings and occasionally a whole egg though he doesn't like them much (going to try rats soon and maybe rabbits if I can get any cheap) he also eats a fair few crickets lol... I'd be scared of over doing the suppliments and getting the wrong ballance...
> If you feed oily fish once a week why bother with oil? and what's kelp powder? :hmm:
> 
> Does everyone else supplement?
> 
> I found a supplement for cats TCfeline homemade raw meat cat food but it does say it's the next best thing to mice, so I think as long as it's all whole rather than just meat it's OK


----------



## inkyjoe

Iv had my Neo on the barf diet for a few weeks now, and she is a new dog! She has put weight on (she was forever going off her dried/tinned food), she is really buff, her coat looks amazing, she doesnt smell anymore,,,shes great! It is costing a bit more than her old diet, as Butchers near me dont have anything to throw away, and all seemed positively offended by me asking. She wont eat carcasses either, so rabbits etc. arent on the menu. Shes eating about 1.2k a day, but Im having fun with it, preparing her meals and mixing it up :no1: so glad I changed her over, I wish Id done it from the beginning


----------



## DavieB

Think I'm going to move onto this diet. Yuri is costing 20 quid a week in Eukenuba so I reckon I'm as well spending less than that on a better diet . 

Just need to find some suppliers local to me that will do livers, hearts, lungs, rib carcasses, chicken carcasses, mince with bones in it and odd other bits looking forward to getting him on it once his kibble runs out, think this will be best for him, might buy a cheap chest freezer for the cupboard to put it all in.


----------



## Kare

DavieB said:


> Think I'm going to move onto this diet. Yuri is costing 20 quid a week in Eukenuba so I reckon I'm as well spending less than that on a better diet .
> 
> Just need to find some suppliers local to me that will do livers, hearts, lungs, rib carcasses, chicken carcasses, mince with bones in it and odd other bits looking forward to getting him on it once his kibble runs out, think this will be best for him, might buy a cheap chest freezer for the cupboard to put it all in.


The best start point is talk to local butchers and offer something like a £1-1.50 a kilo for their old chicken carcases. Most just throw them!! I buy chicken wings from the supermarket, to be honest I believe they are cheaper there than any of the delivery dog food companies seem to charge and I only need to grab them when buying the other food I need.
I also buy chicken livers from the freezer section in the supermarket. These together cover more than 50% of the weeks food.
I would 100% recommend using your main freezer until you can save for a Low rated and NEW chest freezer. Of all things eating your electricity an old freezer is by far the worse, like £100s. Old freezers are really really bad, they could easily cost more over just the first year than 2 new ones!! Fill any space you do not use with bags of bread. You never need to use them, but will save a ton of electricity.


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

I'm quite excited about getting to do this for my next dog


----------



## Zoo-Man

I also buy chicken wings, pork ribs, lamb ribs & heart from the supermarket. I buy the mince from a butcher, poultry necks from my friend's pet shop, & shot rabbits & pheasants when I can from another friend.


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

I need fiends like yours lol


----------



## DavieB

There are 2 systems aren't there, one is pure meat and the other includes veg. I think I'm leaning towards pure meat. I really have no idea how much to feed him though and he's going onto it on Thursday. He's over 35kg and under 40 I feed him 2ce a day atm. I might be pushing my luck a little here but hows a bout a 7 day plan Colin


----------



## Kare

DavieB said:


> There are 2 systems aren't there, one is pure meat and the other includes veg.


You may not have as much choice as you believe, I didn't plan to feed veg, but Morgan started going nuts eating grasses and cleaves, so I added some veg to she diet and though she still eats outside she is better.

I go with the "what can I add to this tin of fish to make it a bigger meal...oh yeah a handful of defrosted veg" approach. 

Both my dogs like to eat green things, veg and fruits. Grass, cleaves, carrots, strawberries, orange etc. Not that I put them in their food, just that they drool over them whenever they see us eating them and we share. Especially the strawbs and the oranges!!

You try to bring your carnivores up as good Natural Law abiding citizens...and then they lust over a strawberry, it is embarrassing really!


----------



## kellogg

I don't feed veg, plus neither of my two will eat it anyway, I just feed prey model raw and they get one meal a day late afternoon.


----------



## Zoo-Man

DavieB said:


> There are 2 systems aren't there, one is pure meat and the other includes veg. I think I'm leaning towards pure meat. I really have no idea how much to feed him though and he's going onto it on Thursday. He's over 35kg and under 40 I feed him 2ce a day atm. I might be pushing my luck a little here but hows a bout a 7 day plan Colin


I couldn't really give you a 7 day plan to be honest Davie, as I don't follow a plan, I just feed a rough mix of things generally. That includes veg & fruit, as not only do the dogs enjoy it, but its also a useful thing to use to bulk up mince mixes or tinned fish, etc.


----------



## DavieB

What sort of weight should I be feeding though I dont want to underfeed that's .y worry with RAW


----------



## Kare

My dogs are on 2% of their body weight, ie Morgan is 30kg so she eats approx 600g of meat per day.

This is the general guide, of course some days she will eat close on 600g of meat in a single meal in the form of a Turkey leg and then have smaller meals the meal before and after to roughly even it out. You will be measuring the meat at first but then you will generally know that 4 wings make a meal etc. 

I would recommend as he is still growing to aim for approx 3-4% of his body weight.

Weigh him, feed him for a fortnight, then weigh him again. If he has not gained a little then up the food by say .5 of a %
This is a useful calculator to do that Calculate

What my dogs eat in a week is back a page if you looking for a starter point of meal plans.


----------



## Sponge

I've only just joined this forum and pleasantly surprised to find this thread - though since snakes, lizards etc have always been raw fed then makes sense some of you also raw feed your dogs and cats and ferrets etc. 

My three terriers are doing fantastic on raw and I wouldn't go back to kibble now


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

One of my cats loves mice but the other one doesn't.


----------



## freekygeeky

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> One of my cats loves mice but the other one doesn't.


have you tried heating it up?


----------



## Kare

freekygeeky said:


> have you tried heating it up?


Mmmm baked mouse!


----------



## freekygeeky

kare said:


> mmmm baked mouse!


im talking to the op about mince


----------



## em_40

Only Evil said mice

My cat loves mice, but hates mince. I bought that 100% rabbit mince stuff from pets at home, and he looks at me like 'what is this? now get me a mouse!' (The dog likes it though), I was hoping to get the chunks of real meat, but they don't seem to have it any more.


----------



## DavieB

Kare said:


> My dogs are on 2% of their body weight, ie Morgan is 30kg so she eats approx 600g of meat per day.
> 
> This is the general guide, of course some days she will eat close on 600g of meat in a single meal in the form of a Turkey leg and then have smaller meals the meal before and after to roughly even it out. You will be measuring the meat at first but then you will generally know that 4 wings make a meal etc.
> 
> I would recommend as he is still growing to aim for approx 3-4% of his body weight.
> 
> Weigh him, feed him for a fortnight, then weigh him again. If he has not gained a little then up the food by say .5 of a %
> This is a useful calculator to do that Calculate
> 
> 
> 
> What my dogs eat in a week is back a page if you looking for a starter point of meal plans.


Thats going to be 1.3kg of RAW a day! Surely that's going to cost a fortune. Ach well 20kg of raw stuff to buy on thu lets see what that costs!


----------



## freekygeeky

Whoops!! Either way a quick bit of warmth through a mouse/mince/heart etc helps my lot.


----------



## DavieB

Yuri's dinner for the next few days!!! He got fish and chicken breast tonight. Ill give him a turkey leg tomorrow. He's so happy! So am I


----------



## DavieB

Yuri developed high temperature and is panting like hell he's not lethargic at all had a wee wrestling match trying to get a rectal temperature I held him down Mrs wouldn't insert... and she's not strong enough to hold down. Got 99.5 from mouth spoke to vet she says she's happy with that. She says fast him and bring him in tomorrow. She instantly blamed putting him on RAW.


----------



## kellogg

Don't they always...


----------



## DavieB

Doesn't help that the Mrs was against raw to start with either so she's going to side with vet :-( . Going to be hard to argue against a vet


----------



## Kare

Vets have no education about food other than provided by dog food companies.

Just because they help bring a child into the world you would not listen to an obs/gyn doctor on how to teach your child to read.


----------



## Whosthedaddy

Any change will be blamed on the change in condition.

Any dogs never been fussed by fish? Mines snubbed scarps I've given her when preparing it all for the freezer; octopus, sardines and sole!


----------



## DavieB

He's better today. I'm going to buy chicken for the next fortnight then Introduce beef, then pork, then eventually fish as I think fish is the issue. This has been on going a few days so glad it's better without going to the vet.


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

DavieB said:


> He's better today. I'm going to buy chicken for the next fortnight then Introduce beef, then pork, then eventually fish as I think fish is the issue. This has been on going a few days so glad it's better without going to the vet.


best stick to one type and gradually introduce something different, that way you'll be able to eliminate which food it is that disagreed with him. 

or he could have picked something up or got a bug that made him a little off and the raw food was just an unfortunate coinkidink


----------



## Caoimhe-Blyss

Ive tried my dogs on chicken wings but they really struggle with them. Any advice


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

Caoimhe-Blyss said:


> Ive tried my dogs on chicken wings but they really struggle with them. Any advice


What kind of dogs are they? Maybe you could smack the wings with a mallet to crush up the bones a little, or try cutting the wings into smaller sections?


----------



## Caoimhe-Blyss

Ones a jrt and the other a poodle crossbreed


----------



## Whosthedaddy

Enjoying some offal

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10150931991796658



Evilshiddenclaws said:


> What kind of dogs are they? Maybe you could smack the wings with a mallet to crush up the bones a little, or try cutting the wings into smaller sections?


I break them with the heel of a big knife, not all the way through but enough to soften them up a little.


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

Whosthedaddy said:


> Enjoying some offal
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10150931991796658
> 
> 
> 
> I break them with the heel of a big knife, not all the way through but enough to soften them up a little.


Aye that works too lol I've never needed to crush them all the dogs I've known have near enough swallowed them whole


----------



## Kare

Caoimhe-Blyss said:


> Ive tried my dogs on chicken wings but they really struggle with them. Any advice


You can mallet them, you can also strangely find dogs can get a clue as to what to do by giving them a carcass (butchers often have them left over, after they cut off the legs, thighs and breasts) because it is bigger and the meat more exposed (ie rather than under skin) they can work out to start chewing.


----------



## Whosthedaddy

Quick question.

Is pork ok to feed or not?

Got a huge rolled joint that is far too big so was going to trim it down to make it more manageable for roasting and give the scraps to the wee one.


----------



## Sponge

Pork is fine


----------



## Kare

People often report pork carries worms, but you should be worming either way so as above I feed pork if hubbie has some he does not eat. 

I personally do not eat pig based products as they are so intelligent in fact arguably more so that dogs, so I would not buy it for dogs seems a little perverse to be feeding an intelligent animal to a lower form, but guess people would say that about mice and snakes :blush:


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

How strange... Then why do humans eat anything? Everthing is smarter lmao


----------



## Junior13reptilez

Could you switch a dog over after feeding dog food for 5 years?


----------



## NickBenger

Junior13reptilez said:


> Could you switch a dog over after feeding dog food for 5 years?


Yes, absolutely.


----------



## freekygeeky

Junior13reptilez said:


> Could you switch a dog over after feeding dog food for 5 years?


yes...slowly


----------



## Sponge

Junior13reptilez said:


> Could you switch a dog over after feeding dog food for 5 years?


Yes totally. I switched my nine year old, eight year old, and 6 month old dogs all at the same time. All had eaten dog food before that. 

Just go for it is best bet. Don't feed dog food one day and raw meat the next. Give a 12-24 hour fast period (so feed dog food one day, and then the next day start the raw diet) and then just get on with it. Start off with one protein source (usually chicken) and wait until you know they are ok with that (their poo is nice an firm not runny) before you introduce other foods. It is normal for dogs to poo bone, get the runs, or even be sick a few times at first but they soon adjust so try not to worry. My oldest dog didn't eat the bones on the first meal, just stripped the meat, but the next day he ate the lot, and has done ever since. 

Introduce offal SLOWLY - little tiny pieces of liver to start with, and then gradually work up so that offal is about 10% of the diet (e.g. my dogs get 150-300g of food a day each, with 60-100g of liver or kidney or other offal twice a week)


----------



## DavieB

Well that's 4 weeks of raw diet complete. 

It's not cheaper his scratching is better, his stools are better his farts and burps are awful. His breath is a little stinky (I may have to get bloods done for this). He is panting like mad though  I've seen a few posts on various websites saying panting .ca be a common side effect for 8-12 weeks which I'm jot happy about, couldn't find a reason why it develops though. He is perfect running about exercising etc it's just I the house the panting is heavy. I'll give it another 2 month if the panting doesn't improve he's back on nibble to see if that fixes it.


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

Thanks for that update. U was really hoping that burps and farts would be something it fixed!


----------



## freekygeeky

DavieB said:


> Well that's 4 weeks of raw diet complete.
> 
> It's not cheaper his scratching is better, his stools are better his farts and burps are awful. His breath is a little stinky (I may have to get bloods done for this). He is panting like mad though  I've seen a few posts on various websites saying panting .ca be a common side effect for 8-12 weeks which I'm jot happy about, couldn't find a reason why it develops though. He is perfect running about exercising etc it's just I the house the panting is heavy. I'll give it another 2 month if the panting doesn't improve he's back on nibble to see if that fixes it.


Never heard of panting as a side effect....hoe strange!


----------



## AM23

I've been considering this diet for my 15 month old Italian Greyhound... According to the weight calculator she should only need about 80-100g a day. I know she's small but would this be enough? It can't be much more than one chicken wing.
Also, could anyone please recommend the best thing to start her on.. Should I try a full wing or pieces of raw chicken with no bone? 
And are there any specific do's and dont's for dogs of this size? She's just over 4kg..

Many thanks


----------



## Kare

Yes 80g will be more than enough, in fact due to the breed I would even be tempted to start on less than that. Easier to put a little more weight on if you miscalculate and she loses slightly than it is to lose weight gained. 

A largish chicken wing can be around 75g alone, so it could be half a chicken wing a meal I am afraid.

I would start by trying a chicken wing with you holding it that can help teach them to go a little slower and chew. I believe this would be the safer route than 2-3 days of boneless chicken then a wing they will smell the same and she may not realise there is a bone to crunch if she has had a few days experience of boneless and is expecting more of the same.


----------



## AM23

Great thank you I think I'll give that a go. How long should I keep her on chicken before trying other meat? And should I stop the dry food all together or as a gradual process?
Sounds like I'll be chopping a rabbit up into about 20 pieces then!


----------



## Kare

AM23 said:


> Great thank you I think I'll give that a go. How long should I keep her on chicken before trying other meat? And should I stop the dry food all together or as a gradual process?
> Sounds like I'll be chopping a rabbit up into about 20 pieces then!


Feed a few days of chicken, Do not feed more than 2-3 meals of bone in a row as it will make your dog bunged up so just for this intro time feed a couple of meals of chicken wings, then maybe a couple of meals of a packet of minced chicken from the pet store, or of chicken breast or something, a couple more meals of chicken wings. The idea at first would be to limit to not feeding a new meat more than say every 5 days, then maybe something light like Tuna (tinned in olive oil is what I buy) or sardines in oil for a meal or couple of meals if your dogs eats less than a full can...then back to a few more days of chicken. Turkey is another light meat that you can buy minced in a pet store or supermarket. Part of a good diet could over the first month include egg, tinned fish, liver (chicken liver sold in the freezer section in small pots in most supermarkets for making pates) packets of minced meat like tripe/rabbit/beef/turkey/lamb etc from pets stores rabbit or chicken on the bone.

I would try not to worry too much about exactly 35g a meal. if one is a little larger, then make the next a touch smaller. Some days my dogs get a tiny amount of scramble egg or a tiny share of fish early for breakfast, then about 3 pm they have more than a full days food in one sitting by eating a turkey leg each! Balance it out over a week or so and don't stress too much day to day....and remember to account for extras like liver or tuna cake treats they have.

You will likely need to buy a box of chicken wings, cut the wings in half and then freeze in clean poo bags or something in 1-2 day supplies just taking one bags worth out at a time. Try and find a butcher that will cut up a rabbit into chunks for you.

As you see above people have different ideas on the switching. Some say gradual. I personally agree with the idea that you stop the old kibble and then say skip a meal and start on meat as the next meal. I see no reason to continue feeding rubbish after you realise it is rubbish. 

The reason you swap slowly with one kibble to another has more to do with your dog having to adjust to the different additives/preservatives etc than having to adjust to the actual food content of the food. Meat is meat, so all that needs to happen is a increase in the correct enzymes etc to digest that the stomach has not needed to digest cooked kibbles.


----------



## sphynxskin

Hi, if anyone is interested, I have a chest freezer stocked with raw meaty mince/chicken/fish/tripe. Would have to price it all up but will sell cheaper than what i paid. Selling as my dog is allergic to the chicken, won't touch the fish and so we've decided it's easier to put her back on dry.
Cheers


----------



## AM23

Thanks for the advice Kare, much appreciated. Will get started this weekend and see how she gets on.


----------



## freekygeeky

sphynxskin said:


> Hi, if anyone is interested, I have a chest freezer stocked with raw meaty mince/chicken/fish/tripe. Would have to price it all up but will sell cheaper than what i paid. Selling as my dog is allergic to the chicken, won't touch the fish and so we've decided it's easier to put her back on dry.
> Cheers


Why not try other foods?


----------



## sphynxskin

What do you suggest?
Chicken/bones is a main staple in the raw diet. I had the meat delivered once every two months from durham feeds. Ran out of choices as the lamb bones make her sick, won't touch the lamb mince, meaty mince has offal in it and so she was living on just beef mince meat, won't touch fish either.
Since putting her back on biscuits her skin allergy has gone. I did do a trial with the chicken as the vet suggested and it was that that was causing it and so i have all this food that's no longer required.

I've have 1lb frozen packs of 10 x mince beef
7 x mince lamb
11 x white fish 
10 chicken carcass
16 x meaty mince
2 boxes lamb bones

£30 for all of it, less than what i paid.


----------



## Whosthedaddy

Anyone fed or have any comments on plucked whole pigeons as a food item (head and wings chopped off)?


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

righty as its just under two weeks before my baby arrives i thought i would make sure putting a 7 week old puppy straight onto the RAW diet is the right thing to do, im a newbie to this even though i've done tonnes of research online and in books etc 

i've heard mixed views about raising puppies on just meat and bones, some saying i should still feed a good quality puppy complete along with some chicken wings etc to start off with as they wouldnt be getting the right balance for growing?? is there any truth to this?


----------



## Whosthedaddy

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> righty as its just under two weeks before my baby arrives i thought i would make sure putting a 7 week old puppy straight onto the RAW diet is the right thing to do, im a newbie to this even though i've done tonnes of research online and in books etc
> 
> i've heard mixed views about raising puppies on just meat and bones, some saying i should still feed a good quality puppy complete along with some chicken wings etc *to start off with as they wouldnt be getting the right balance for growing?? is there any truth to this?*


This is what we've done.

She is 14-15 weeks now and has some Beta in the morning, meat / offal * for lunch and dinner and then some more Beta after the evening meal. Its more than overkill on the food front but its peace of mind knowing that she is getting all the nutrients in a correct balance when she is growing and then when older reduce the Beta given till just a small amount per day if at all.

She is growing well and seems to have no problems from having RAW from the first meal with us.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...ures/854922-giddstead-aqua-marine-aka-bo.html





*I've just bagged and mixed up liver, kidney, heart, tripe and chicken wings in portion sizes and then some more rabbit, mince or chicken for more of a 'meat' and bone based meal.


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

Whosthedaddy said:


> This is what we've done.
> 
> She is 14-15 weeks now and has some Beta in the morning, meat / offal * for lunch and dinner and then some more Beta after the evening meal. Its more than overkill on the food front but its peace of mind knowing that she is getting all the nutrients in a correct balance when she is growing and then when older reduce the Beta given till just a small amount per day if at all.
> 
> She is growing well and seems to have no problems from having RAW from the first meal with us.
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...ures/854922-giddstead-aqua-marine-aka-bo.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I've just bagged and mixed up liver, kidney, heart, tripe and chicken wings in portion sizes and then some more rabbit, mince or chicken for more of a 'meat' and bone based meal.




i know she's being fed royal canin at the moment so i think i'm best to pick up a bag to continue feeding her that and include raw food aswell and then gradually cut down the complete. seen as i havent a clue what im doing im guessing thats the best way lol


----------



## Whosthedaddy

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> i know she's being fed royal canin at the moment so i think i'm best to pick up a bag to continue feeding her that and include raw food aswell and then gradually cut down the complete. seen as i havent a clue what im doing im guessing thats the best way lol


Bo is on Beta as thats what she was weaned on to so carried it on, we wouldn't have had a clue otherwise.

I have no idea and certainly not the experience to say right from wrong but she is healthy, happy and growing at an appropriate rate so we'll continue with the mix of RAW and kibble for now.


----------



## Sponge

Best not to mix kibble and raw as it is digested at different rates. If you do try to leave at least 12 hours between the kibble and raw meals, or use a grain free kibble. 

Puppies can be weaned directly onto raw and grow up happy and healthy, so theres certainly no problem in starting an 8 week old off on raw only. 

Oh - and pigeon is fine to feed (it would be fine with feathers etc, so certainly fine prepared). A couple of my dogs not too keen on it though. 

As far as I know the only thing with pups on raw is that it's best to feed 3 or 4 times a day. You want to be giving 2-3% of their expected ADULT body weight a day. With offal once or twice a week.


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

Sponge said:


> Best not to mix kibble and raw as it is digested at different rates. If you do try to leave at least 12 hours between the kibble and raw meals, or use a grain free kibble.
> 
> Puppies can be weaned directly onto raw and grow up happy and healthy, so theres certainly no problem in starting an 8 week old off on raw only.
> 
> Oh - and pigeon is fine to feed (it would be fine with feathers etc, so certainly fine prepared). A couple of my dogs not too keen on it though.
> 
> As far as I know the only thing with pups on raw is that it's best to feed 3 or 4 times a day. You want to be giving 2-3% of their expected ADULT body weight a day. With offal once or twice a week.


Thanks very much for this. Do they need any supplements or is meat/bones & offal enough


----------



## AM23

We're onto day 3 with Belle now (Italian Greyhound) and so far so good, she seems to be really enjoying it and no problems with stomach upsets either. The only problem is she seems to now be starving all the time.. She's always been a greedy thing but she just seems so hungry, desperate for any food and crying when I don't get her dinner quick enough or when I'm cooking for myself. Is this because she now is getting dinner she loves to eat? And should she get used to this amount of food? I've been weighing it out so she's been getting the recommended amount.


----------



## Sponge

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> Thanks very much for this. Do they need any supplements or is meat/bones & offal enough


Meat/Bones and offal is fine. You can add fish or fish oil if you like. And fruit/veg/yoghurt/raw egg if you like. But none of that is strictly necessary.


----------



## Sponge

AM23 said:


> We're onto day 3 with Belle now (Italian Greyhound) and so far so good, she seems to be really enjoying it and no problems with stomach upsets either. The only problem is she seems to now be starving all the time.. She's always been a greedy thing but she just seems so hungry, desperate for any food and crying when I don't get her dinner quick enough or when I'm cooking for myself. Is this because she now is getting dinner she loves to eat? And should she get used to this amount of food? I've been weighing it out so she's been getting the recommended amount.


She should be fine. If she seems really starving hungry you might want to add some veg or fruit just to bulk out her meals a bit and fill her up. But I think it's just because they look forward to mealtimes when on raw! If she loses weight then you might need to increase it a bit, some miniture breeds need a little more food than recommended sometimes, especially if quite active because they have a faster metabolism e.g. i know someone whose 2kg chihuahua eats as much as my 7kg terrier, it just depends on the individual dog.


----------



## Zoo-Man

Pigeon is fine. I currently have a big fat Wood Pigeon in the freezer. I will remove the head & feet, & pluck it, but that is all I will do before the dogs get it. 

And it is fie to rear puppies on the BARF diet. I've never had any problems rearing puppies on it.


----------



## Whosthedaddy

Any good online suppliers of BARF food that doesn't have a massive p&P?


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

Whosthedaddy said:


> Any good online suppliers of BARF food that doesn't have a massive p&P?


I was doing some research last week but I can't remember who I decided on to be the cheapest.


----------



## freekygeeky

for me its my local shops/butchers/morrisons/pet shop.


----------



## Whosthedaddy

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> I was doing some research last week but I can't remember who I decided on to be the cheapest.


Maybe I'm being tight but I consider £9-10+ for p and p a little steep? I know they weight ordered is a little heavy and frozen...but still?



freekygeeky said:


> for me its my local shops/butchers/*morrisons*/pet shop.


Best place so far I've found.


----------



## freekygeeky

Whosthedaddy said:


> Best place so far I've found.


I do BARF/RAW diet for cats so its a little diff...but this is what i get, and where i get it..

- Salmon oil (health food shops)
- Eggs (Value box of 30 from tescos)
- Frozen minced BARF (Standard range of Anglia Meats from my local pet shop, I buy in bulk of 20)
- Chicken wings (Morrisons)
- Fresh hearts (butchers)
- Offal (Morrisons)
- Chicks (Reptile shop)
- Taurine (online)

I dont have a chest freezer so buying online doesnt work out good for me, as its only good if you buy in bulk.


----------



## Whosthedaddy

freekygeeky said:


> I dont have a chest freezer so buying online doesnt work out good for me, as its only good if you buy in bulk.


I think the offal available at Morrisons is excellent with various livers, various kidneys, tripe and heart! They also do trotters and some meaty bones from time to time so ideal for my dog.

Ours is a Bullmastiff puppy so already eats a fair amount and bulk would be better but again space is a slight problem although we have room for a whole months worth of meat when chopped and bagged up into meal sized servings.


----------



## freekygeeky

Whosthedaddy said:


> I think the offal available at Morrisons is excellent with various livers, various kidneys, tripe and heart! They also do trotters and some meaty bones from time to time so ideal for my dog.
> 
> Ours is a Bullmastiff puppy so already eats a fair amount and bulk would be better but again space is a slight problem although we have room for a whole months worth of meat when chopped and bagged up into meal sized servings.


 Yea I'd Offal shopping on a month by month basis. Eggs weekly. And mince weekly. I saw the trotters this week .


----------



## SilverSteno

I also use Morrisons! They have a good range of stuff and can often get big lamb breasts, beef ribs with loads of meat on! The other week I got loads of reduced price ox-tails that are in the freezer now! Plus as has already been said, a good variety of offal! The other thing I use is Prize Choice, unfortunately getting anything else up here seems to be a no-no as I haven't even had a response from the guy who suppliers DAF foods up here (


----------



## Whosthedaddy

After biting the proverbial bullet I ordered from these guys:

Pet Food | Pet Foods Raw Dog Food, Cat Food & Pet Health Supplements

Less than 24 hour delivery and even got an email and text confirming time and ability to re arrange if needed this morning.

All food is vacuum packed into basically a daily portion for our pup (500g) and came with a few extra sample treats!

Very impressed so far, lets hope she likes her tripe and udders.


----------



## NexivRed

Hi. Another raw feeder here. We switched over to it when we adopted our greyhound earlier this year and both him and our 3 cats have half raw, half commercial. Reason being is we haven't got a good source of taurine for the cats yet so still give them meat (no dry food due to the issue with renal failure) in the week along with their chicken wings, and the greyhound is really fussy over eating his liver which he HAS to have. So he gets a complete dry food mixed with pilchards in tomato sauce in the week as well.

I've got my eye on some of the online complete minces for making sure all the vits and minerals are checked, but will continue to give frankenprey as well. The dog will eat a whole, fresh rabbit carcass so what I really want to do is to try and shoot some (we live in the Suffolk countryside).

Does anyone know about an easier source of taurine other than heart or thigh?


----------



## freekygeeky

NexivRed said:


> Hi. Another raw feeder here. We switched over to it when we adopted our greyhound earlier this year and both him and our 3 cats have half raw, half commercial. Reason being is we haven't got a good source of taurine for the cats yet so still give them meat (no dry food due to the issue with renal failure) in the week along with their chicken wings, and the greyhound is really fussy over eating his liver which he HAS to have. So he gets a complete dry food mixed with pilchards in tomato sauce in the week as well.
> 
> I've got my eye on some of the online complete minces for making sure all the vits and minerals are checked, but will continue to give frankenprey as well. The dog will eat a whole, fresh rabbit carcass so what I really want to do is to try and shoot some (we live in the Suffolk countryside).
> 
> Does anyone know about an easier source of taurine other than heart or thigh?


Along with half barf, and half prize choice mince, I use, Felini Taurine: great deals on cat food and supplements at zooplus for my cats


----------



## Postcard

Just done an order of wolf tucker, will let you know how pupface gets on with it... Might add a few meaty bones / wings for something to chew on as it's minced.


----------



## Magpie

I would really like to do this diet but am still quite baffled, more questions keep popping up all the time the more I prepare to do it. We pick the puppy up on Saturday, she will be 13 weeks old and is currently on biscuits. Do I switch gradually or go cold turkey ? Or should I wait til she's older ? I've seen so much conflicting information !
Obviously I don't know how much she weighs yet so I looked around on the net for average weight of a Basset at her age and worked out her portions from that. I don't know if they're anywhere near right, but if they are, she will have 3 meals a day for the first 6 months, of 110-120g per meal. I bought lamb hearts, pig kidneys, pig liver, lamb liver and tripe so far and have weighed these out into portions. Where do bones come into it when you're working by weight ? because then everything is too heavy ?! 
Does she need supplements, and are there meats we should go easy on/not feed at all ? Are you supposed to feed mainly chicken or does it not matter, and what about fish ? Argh so many bloody questions !


----------



## Sponge

Hi there. I haven't raised a pup on raw yet (ours was 6 months when I put them on it) but I've been raw feeding all our dogs (4) for about 9/10 months and they all doing great. 

I think for young pups you usually need to be feeding 2-3% of their predicted adult weight, or 5% of their current weight. I'm not sure how much adult bassets weigh but your calculations sound about right to me, maybe you can get away with slightly more. You'll be looking to feed around 500g a day when adult I guess. It's absolutely fine to start her on raw at 13 weeks. 

Mine get bones in most meals. Things like chicken wings, or thighs will be about the right size. Lamb breast, and lamb neck can also be cut to size. Since you keep reps, even things like day old chicks, and mice are fine for your dog too. 

It is best to switch cold turkey. You might want to start with a single protein source to see how they handle it - but it's not essential - I recently started our fourth dog on raw cold turkey and he had chicken, lamb, and ox tongue all in the first week. 

With your kidneys and liver - you don't really want to be feeding these as full meals. They should only make up about 10% of the diet. I throw them in once or twice a week, about 70g each time. To start with though you'll want even smaller amounts since they are very rich and can give dogs the runs if they eat too much. 

(warning poo talk)
Heart is usually ok to feed as a whole meal. But is still quite rich. I've found it turns my dogs poo black, but this is fine so long as its still firm like it should be. 

Don't worry too much about amounts. For example, trotters are far too heavy to be a meal for your pup but they are mostly bone and not much meat. So I would still feed them if I wanted (they are a great chew toy for teething pups even if they aren't yet strong enough to get through the bones) and just give a meatier meal (tripe or heart) next feed. Having a lot of bone just makes mine poo a bit more, but that's all. Too much bone can bung them up, so if she struggles to poo ease off the bone. If the poo is too soft, add more bone (poo should be white and crumbly mostly) 

There are no meats to avoid. But freeze wild meat (rabbit etc) and fish for a couple of weeks if you can to kill any parasites

No need for supplements so long as they are getting a good variety of meat (inc bone and tendons etc which will be in most bone-in meals) and some offal. Some give veg, some don't bother. Whole cabbages or cauliflowers can be fun for pups to play with and shred, and whole carrots good to chew so up to you really. You can throw in a raw egg sometimes (few times a week, or month) and if your pup doesn't take well to fresh/frozen fish then you can use tinned (fresh fish makes mine regurgitate it a few times before they will keep it down - does them no harm but I don't particularly like regurgitated fish on my carpet so I give tinned sardines/mackerel/pilchards instead - just make sure it's in oil or tomato sauce or water not brine) 

You may find in the first week or two she will bring up small pieces of bone, or you might see chunks of bone in her poo. This is fine and is just the stomach hasn't yet adjusted its pH to break it down fully yet. If she regurgitates bone it is fine for her to re-eat it. Sometimes they've just swallowed a piece that's too big and want a second go! They usually chew better second time! 

Most people feed mostly chicken for convieniance. But a variety is better. Or if you have a reliable cheap source of other meat (eg you shoot rabbits) then using that as the staple is fine. 

Hope all that helps. It's really not that difficult. You will get the hang of it in no time. .


----------



## kellogg

nom nom mr rabbit


----------



## Magpie

Sponge said:


> <post>


Thanks so much for your help. She's been on raw for a few weeks now and LOVES it ! I've been keeping a diary of her meals to try and make sure we keep a balance although I generally go on the state of her poo !

Our parrot has been showing a great deal of interest in the raw bones. Should I let him have these ? He will walk across the room to get to one and have a chew on it, but with them being raw, I'm not sure if I should let him so I don't. But can he have these, does anybody know ?! She has lamb bones, if that makes any difference.


----------



## Zoo-Man

I only give my parrot cooked bones.

I am currently weaning my litter of Chihuahua puppies on raw mince with goats milk. Its going down well.


----------



## Whosthedaddy

Any ideas why our 6 month old (30kg) Bullmastiff who'd been on the BARF has loose stools?

200g of complete large breed kibble in the morning
250g chicken quarter* lunch
250g chicken quarter* dinner




*plus 50-100g of offal including kindey, liver, heart for one or either of the meals depending on whats been on offer in the supermarket.


Her stools have never been as 'firm' as I thought they'd be on this diet but as of late have been more loose than formed?


----------



## Kare

Whosthedaddy said:


> Any ideas why our 6 month old (30kg) Bullmastiff who'd been on the BARF has loose stools?
> 
> 200g of complete large breed kibble in the morning
> 250g chicken quarter* lunch
> 250g chicken quarter* dinner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *plus 50-100g of offal including kindey, liver, heart for one or either of the meals depending on whats been on offer in the supermarket.
> 
> 
> Her stools have never been as 'firm' as I thought they'd be on this diet but as of late have been more loose than formed?


Most people would feed offal once a week (one meal), maybe tops twice a week. Maybe try cutting that back until it is a little firmer? 

I assume the Chicken quarter is a whole chicken rather than a carcass, because just bone should balance it better than that, but the whole chicken is what I assume to get loose stools.


I know she is on a complete food, but maybe good to introduce another meat aswell Chicken and offal will be fairly unbalanced, maybe a nice red meat?


----------



## Whosthedaddy

Kare said:


> Most people would feed offal once a week (one meal), maybe tops twice a week. Maybe try cutting that back until it is a little firmer?
> 
> I used to bag up all the meat and offal separately but then mixed a little in each or odd bags. There would be some weeks where she wouldn't get any real form of offal at all so I'm sure it balances out a little but I see the point you're making.
> 
> I assume the Chicken quarter is a whole chicken rather than a carcass, because just bone should balance it better than that, but the whole chicken is what I assume to get loose stools.
> 
> Yep its 'whole' chicken quarters upped from chicken wings as she is a big girl and 2 of these is a days worth rather than half a packet so easier to accommodate in the freezer in bags.
> 
> I would have thought the increase in bone density and weight from wings to what is leg, thigh and part carcass would suffice?
> 
> Would it be considered too much meat and not enough bone?*
> 
> I know she is on a complete food, but maybe good to introduce another meat aswell Chicken and offal will be fairly unbalanced, maybe a nice red meat?
> 
> Hence why we have kept with some dry food for brekkie until she is on complete raw and fully grown. I know it goes against the grain a little (get it :lol2 but hopefully this would allow for any inbalances in the diet?


* I am always worried that she is not eating 'enough' as I keep trying to compare to tinned weight required for her size and 500g would only be just over one small tin a day not including any biscuits or kibble?

Do they get enough 'nutrients' from the bones alone or the meat, so carcass' would be better than 'joints' of meat?

I thought that chicken was a good staple? She does get different meats as and when we have but chicken is here main dinner.

I have noticed a change more since we upped the size of meal as opposed to the weight, as in from wings to legs/drummers. Could she not be digesting the larger bones as efficiently hence the looser and not as formed stool?

She certainly has no problems with crunching through the bones but does seem to hoof her food and its gone in less than a minute.

:gasp:


----------



## Caz

Whosthedaddy said:


> Any ideas why our 6 month old (30kg) Bullmastiff who'd been on the BARF has loose stools?
> 
> *200g of complete large breed kibble in the morning*
> 250g chicken quarter* lunch
> 250g chicken quarter* dinner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *plus 50-100g of offal including kindey, liver, heart for one or either of the meals depending on whats been on offer in the supermarket.
> 
> 
> Her stools have never been as 'firm' as I thought they'd be on this diet but as of late have been more loose than formed?


My dogs are on a raw diet. No loose stools at all once kibble stopped.
I think your kibble may be the cause of the loose stools.


----------



## **louise**

I've recently switch both dogs and all the cats over to a raw/BARF diet.

They have no kibble at all now and what a difference! Their stools are small, crumbly and don't smell. They are drink less (the kibble used to make them so thirsty) and best of all... they love meal times and never turn their nose up at anything offered


----------



## Magpie

Can dogs and cats eat raw octopus ? 

My Basset hound is coming up to 6 months old and weighs 13.5kg. At the moment we are feeding three times a day, 200g a time, as advised by Ann Ridyard over Facebook a few months ago. Is this still enough or should I increase her food now ?


----------



## Whosthedaddy

Caz said:


> My dogs are on a raw diet. No loose stools at all once kibble stopped.
> I think your kibble may be the cause of the loose stools.


All better now as not digging and eating stuff form the garden!



Magpie said:


> Can dogs and cats eat raw octopus ?
> 
> My Basset hound is coming up to 6 months old and weighs 13.5kg. At the moment we are feeding three times a day, 200g a time, as advised by Ann Ridyard over Facebook a few months ago. Is this still enough or should I increase her food now ?


Our bullmastiff turned her nose up at octopuss, but then again also refused all fish.


----------



## Magpie

Ruby LOVES fish, I think she prefers it to meat. Have you tried mixing it with tripe ?


----------



## Whosthedaddy

Tried mixing it and just eats round it and leaves?


----------



## PixieMeow

What are the guidelines to how much to feed and puppies? I own a 9 month old malamute and he is on raw food, but we are a bit stuck on how much he should actually be eating? He weighs 32kgs and is 26 inches to his shoulders.


----------



## Sn0W

It's 2% to 3% of the ideal adult bodyweight or 10% of the dogs actual weight if it's less then the 2-3%. Obviously this is rough and you need to use your dog as a guide. If it starts getting fat, feed it less and if it's getting skinny feed it more.


----------



## PixieMeow

So at his current height of 26 inches his ideal body weight is 38-40 kgs so what would be his ideal meat intake in grams?


----------



## Sn0W

3800 - 4000g per day. Need the current weight not height to see which is less


----------



## PixieMeow

Sorry what I mean was with his current height of 26 inches his ideal adult weight should be around 38-40kg (this could change if he gets taller) and he is currently 32kgs at 9 months old. So he should be eating around 3800-4000gs?


----------



## Sn0W

I'd stick him on 3200g and watch his weight and go from there


----------



## PixieMeow

That seems a lot!


----------



## Sn0W

It does seem like a like but they are pretty huge dogs, but you might find that he starts getting fat on that much and have to cut it down. I've got an ebook I can email you if you want to read it. Just PM me your email address


----------



## Whosthedaddy

Sn0W said:


> It's 2% to 3% of the ideal adult bodyweight or 10% of the dogs actual weight if it's less then the 2-3%. Obviously this is rough and you need to use your dog as a guide. If it starts getting fat, feed it less and if it's getting skinny feed it more.





PixieMeow said:


> Sorry what I mean was with his current height of 26 inches his ideal adult weight should be around 38-40kg (this could change if he gets taller) and he is currently 32kgs at 9 months old. So he should be eating around 3800-4000gs?


Our 8 month Bullmastiff is heavier than that and on less than that as she was starting to look a little porky and pinhead. I know all dogs grow differently so is hard to tell of they are in fact the ideal weight due to the weird proportions of leg to body.

The way I read the 2-3% is only a guide and should be treated as such and adapted for your own circumstances.


----------



## exoticsandtropics

great thread just wanted to say.


----------



## Whosthedaddy

Even managed to sway the decision on BARF to the inlays GSD after dispelling some myths and them talking to others at their puppy training.

Nom nom nom


----------



## RepSeller

I feed my dane on the barf diet and she loves it! shes well built and has pure muscle, glossy coat massive strong white teeth good strong claws, solid poos and is full of life. I recommend it to nyone. it also only costs me around £15 a week to feed her aswell so a lot cheeper than normal crappy dog food.


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

I just cant get the hang of It. Its too expensive and my dog is in worse condition on raw than on dog food. I give up on it


----------



## Whosthedaddy

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> I just cant get the hang of It. Its too expensive and my dog is in worse condition on raw than on dog food. I give up on it


At least you can say you tried it.

I suppose I should price up the canned / dry food equivalent to see. 1kg a da is going to be a few £ no matter the option!

Isn't it about time we had some plated pics of the Dobbie?


----------



## Evilshiddenclaws

Whosthedaddy said:


> At least you can say you tried it.
> 
> I suppose I should price up the canned / dry food equivalent to see. 1kg a da is going to be a few £ no matter the option!
> 
> Isn't it about time we had some plated pics of the Dobbie?


plated? i dont post much cos its too much hassle uploading pictures to various host sites lol i'll see if i have a picture


----------



## mitsi

don't you have to be careful with chicken bones though, I thought they splintered to easily to be given to dogs due to the choking hazard.


----------



## Sn0W

Only cooked bones splinter. Raw bones are fine. No cooked bones or anything cooked should be fed at all


----------



## Sn0W

Also as far as price goes, you should be able to pick up whole chickens, chicken quarters, and pork shoulder joints pretty cheaply. Heart is also really cheap and is classed as a muscle meat, but be careful as many have issues with cannon butt when introducing it too quickly.


----------



## mitsi

theres a pet shop near me ive just found that sells a barf mix frozen for £2.85 is this a good price


----------



## IceBloodExotics

I'm such a fan of the barf diet that I'm buying a chest freezer today to go in my bedroom haha, it's the only place I can put it...bloody dogs better appreciate it


----------



## Sn0W

£2.85 what's the weight and what are the ingredients?


----------



## mitsi

its 500g and its a mix of rabbit bits or chicken bits or lamb bits etc, its like a chunky mince.


----------



## freekygeeky

mitsi said:


> its 500g and its a mix of rabbit bits or chicken bits or lamb bits etc, its like a chunky mince.


I spend 85p for the same amount. I presume it's made by AMP?


----------



## Sn0W

Yeah I wouldn't go for it. Mince or chunks are a waste of time when you can get whole hearts, chicken quarters, thighs, whole chickens for cheap. Mince and smaller chunks don't provide the dental hygiene either for teeth or gums


----------



## mitsi

ok thanks I will leave it.


----------



## alasdairgordon

*BARF Diet*

If you are looking for some interesting ideas for raw diets then take a look at the www.kiezebrink.co.uk website. They have a huge range of frozen raw animal foods. It is always good to vary your pets diet from beef, tripe, chicken, salmon and even rabbit. They even have a BARF range of their own call Alaska Natural Dog Food. Take a look!


----------



## fenwoman

alasdairgordon said:


> If you are looking for some interesting ideas for raw diets then take a look at the www.kiezebrink.co.uk website. They have a huge range of frozen raw animal foods. It is always good to vary your pets diet from beef, tripe, chicken, salmon and even rabbit. They even have a BARF range of their own call Alaska Natural Dog Food. Take a look!



Don't you mean *we *have? :lol2: You are of course advertising your own company Alasdair. It might have been nice to mention it as it sounds like you are Joe Public recommending it.
I have looked at the site and looked at the prices and they are very very expensive. I buy 300lbs of minced chicken and tripe etc at a time from Tripe | Chicken Mince | Beef Mince | Lamb Mince | Whole Rabbit | Raw Dog Food
their meat is around 65% cheaper than yours. I've used them for several years now and the quality is excellent, the staff friendly and the delivery driver will even carry it and stack in the freezer for me.
I have no doubt your products are good, and big organisations like zoos, with smart accountant, can afford to buy your stuff without regard to cost because someone else will be paying the bill (tax payer/paying public/various grants from conservation groups) but for people like myself with loads of mouths to feed because people bring us unwanted animals, and no smart accountants and no means of raising money to pay. We have to balance our books and it boils down to cost per kg.
I am not affiliated in any way to the company I have recommended. This is a genuine Joe(sephine) Public recommendation.

People get a bit suspicious when the owner or director posts as though they are recommending a company as a random happy customer.


----------



## alasdairgordon

Dear Fenwoman,

I did not mean to create offence or start a price war. I just wanted the readers of this forum to be informed about the potential raw food options that are available for their animals. Kiezebrink might not be the cheapest but we do have a wide range of products that might interest people. 

If are happy with your supplier and their prices then there is not reason to change. If people don't know what potential raw foods are available then they can't make an educated/informed decision.

Have a good weekend.


----------



## labmad

:gasp:Good to see my original thread is still going :no1:

Just looking at starting our dogs back into this diet, for the past few years we have had NO place to store our food so had to go back on conventional, even though we are still living back with my parents we are now looking to get the dogs and cats back onto what, for me, is the best way to feed (my own opinion of course)

We have 7 dogs so before anyone gives me 100 lashes for the lapse food for this amount of dogs needs storage space out of harms way especially in the warmer months 

One thing I have noticed though, this way of feeding has become much more popular over the last few years, many of our local butchers now advertise on their stalls they sell the stuff - mainly the bones as they want to make money of their waste - remember many butchers have to pay for the removal of this stuff so once you find the right place they will give you as many bones as you want for FREE (where I get my bones from it costs him £600 per month for the truck to come along and take away his waste bins)


----------



## freekygeeky

The price has gone up massively though which is a shame.

I have now started to buy it in bulk online. whixh has meant getting a chest freezer...



labmad said:


> :gasp:Good to see my original thread is still going :no1:
> 
> Just looking at starting our dogs back into this diet, for the past few years we have had NO place to store our food so had to go back on conventional, even though we are still living back with my parents we are now looking to get the dogs and cats back onto what, for me, is the best way to feed (my own opinion of course)
> 
> We have 7 dogs so before anyone gives me 100 lashes for the lapse food for this amount of dogs needs storage space out of harms way especially in the warmer months
> 
> One thing I have noticed though, this way of feeding has become much more popular over the last few years, many of our local butchers now advertise on their stalls they sell the stuff - mainly the bones as they want to make money of their waste - remember many butchers have to pay for the removal of this stuff so once you find the right place they will give you as many bones as you want for FREE (where I get my bones from it costs him £600 per month for the truck to come along and take away his waste bins)


----------



## labmad

tell me about it - sellers now and have been jumping on this now for sometime......when I started feeding RAW it cost me £2.50 per box of chicken carcasses, each box contained at least 100 carcasses......no idea what the charge is now until I go find out from a couple of poultry places not too far from me....


----------



## freekygeeky

labmad said:


> tell me about it - sellers now and have been jumping on this now for sometime......when I started feeding RAW it cost me £2.50 per box of chicken carcasses, each box contained at least 100 carcasses......no idea what the charge is now until I go find out from a couple of poultry places not too far from me....


I get minced chicken carcasses, 1lb or 450g costs 75p!!

I used to get it for 40p!


----------



## labmad

freekygeeky said:


> I get minced chicken carcasses, 1lb or 450g costs 75p!!
> 
> I used to get it for 40p!


Do you get it delivered front a company or do you have a local supplier to you?

One of our labs is stupid with food at times, not aggressive or anything he just eats like he has never been fed.....EVER.....he thinks he can swallow carcasses whole, we have to break them up to stop him from doing so


----------



## freekygeeky

labmad said:


> Do you get it delivered front a company or do you have a local supplier to you?
> 
> One of our labs is stupid with food at times, not aggressive or anything he just eats like he has never been fed.....EVER.....he thinks he can swallow carcasses whole, we have to break them up to stop him from doing so


lol, I buy it online now, as im buying in bulk to save money.


----------



## Whosthedaddy

freekygeeky said:


> lol, I buy it online now, as im buying in bulk to save money.


Which one.


----------



## freekygeeky

Whosthedaddy said:


> Which one.


manifoldvalley are the best ones ive found so far


----------



## WinnieeMvP

Had my patterdale on this from a pup. Not quite as extreme as this though as i could only get the frozen raw meat you can buy and then a bag of chicken wings.

We go out shooting but im pretty relectant to let him eat what he catches as we have 2 cats back home and theyre the mrs' babys..

Not to mention shes planning a rabbit for my nipper and I know how much of a mess he'd make of a little domestic one haha. He's from a strong background of working patterdale but does have lakeland colours so he has been thrownback at somepoint.

Lovely little dog to have though. Anyone who can help with a supplier around southampton/bournemouthe or surrounding areas please let me know


----------



## mitsi

Do these prices seem reasonable?
https://www.kiezebrink.co.uk/category/65-chicken


----------



## mitsi

My dog is 9 months old and just over 35kg how much should I feed her in this diet a day and in what form, ie meaty bones for breakfast then what for next meal? How much would I need to buy to last her a month roughly.


----------



## Ryanbrown89

mitsi said:


> My dog is 9 months old and just over 35kg how much should I feed her in this diet a day and in what form, ie meaty bones for breakfast then what for next meal? How much would I need to buy to last her a month roughly.


Hi everyone I have a 18 month old dogue de bordeaux and I really want her to go on the raw food diet for eg meaty bones etc it's something iv wanted to put her on for a while now but I'm finding it hard to actually know what to give her for eg what meats and the main worry for me is actually how much to five her?
I know it may seem a stupid question but any tips, advice or even a menu to know what to give her when and how much would be hugggggeeeeellllyyyyy appreciated:2thumb: thanks in advance for any possible responses


----------



## Kare

Ryanbrown89 said:


> Hi everyone I have a 18 month old dogue de bordeaux and I really want her to go on the raw food diet for eg meaty bones etc it's something iv wanted to put her on for a while now but I'm finding it hard to actually know what to give her for eg what meats and the main worry for me is actually how much to five her?
> I know it may seem a stupid question but any tips, advice or even a menu to know what to give her when and how much would be hugggggeeeeellllyyyyy appreciated:2thumb: thanks in advance for any possible responses


As she is 18 months I assume she is fully grown and filled out. So start with 2% of her body weight. So for example 40kg would be 0.8kg or 800g of meat a day.

The guide is normally 2-3% but personally I always start at 2% and then weigh every week to begin with as noticing they are losing and upping the food is healthier than over feeding and them gaining weight inmy opinion

Start with one source of meat, ie from one animal. Raw Chicken is ideal. Something like chicken necks if you can get them make good first meals as the bones are small and less risk if they do not chew them well. If your dog tends to gulp food then holding on to one end of a chicken wing or leg whilst they eat can be a better option for your dog. I use to recommend starting with a boneless cut for the first day or two but in hindsight believe this can set a bad precedence in that the dog then does not expect bones in meat when you give it.

Until their stomach builds up the bacteria levels then bone can be seen the other end too. This will soon stop.Bone is binding (leads to being bunged up) so normally 2 meals in a row canbe bone, 3 in a row can cause the poop to be hard to pass. Starting for the first few weeks look at maybe one boney meal, one pure meat meal

If I was starting I would weigh by dog to find the daily amount of meat to feed and buy some chicken necks and some minced chicken. Half the daily amount of meat you need to feed and feed half as chicken necks in the morning, then in the evening feed the other half of the daily allowance as chicken mince or chicken hearts are ideal every day for 4 to 6 days, watch the dogs tummy as it will likely be unsettled until the correct bacteria can build up inside the dogs digestive tract. As soon as it starts to settle, hopefully at the end of the first week then reduce the weight of mince you feed by 100g and add a 100g of chicken liver to the mince meal instead.

After 2 weeks weigh the dog, if they have gained weight reduce feeding slightly, if they have lost then increase. You can then slowly add another meat to the mix, say rabbit instead of a chicken neck/wing meal in that week, or mince beef instead of a mince chicken meal.

Ideally I aim for 50% boney meats, such as chicken backs, chicken wings, chicken necks or same of duck/turkey/pheasant etc or lamb ribs or rabbit beef neck etc etc
40% muscle meat such as minces or heart or tongue or fish
10% organ meat/offal such as lung tripe kidney liver etc etc

An example diet,
Monday
Am. Wings Pm. Heart/s
Tuesday
Am. Wings Pm. Minced meat
Wednesday
Am. Gutted skinned rabbit Pm. Heart/s
Thursday
Am Necks Pm. Wings
Friday 
Am. Liver or kidney Pm. Wings
Saturday
Am. Wings Pm. Mince/hearts
Sunday
Am. Tinned fish in oil Pm. Full roast dinner with veg

You soon relax, iff one meal is small, for example tinned fisb the next one or two will need a touch more. If there is and offer on heart they may get this three meals in a row. Some add a little offal to each meal, I load them with two meals of bone to slightly bind them before a meal of offal (which can make them loose) for balance before a whole meal of offal


----------



## blackcat

great post, good job bro


----------



## Sn0W

That sounds like far too much bone to me. Also you don't want to feed liver that soon as it'll more than likely result in cannon butt. Wings and necks can be choking hazards for big dogs and greedy dogs. If you're going for prey model you can skip the mince and just go straight for actual pieces of meat. The bacteria levels in mince can be higher and can cause issues when starting out


----------



## Grossman

thank you for this thread!!!


----------

