# Rob Louth Vs Wrigglies



## berbers (May 29, 2010)

I've been looking at venomous handling courses from both these guys and was wondering if anyone has experienced either or both, what were the pros/cons or which would you recommend?

I'm not really looking to keep hots at this stage just to further my interests, i've never handled or been up close to venomous before so i'd be going in as a total novice. 

Many thanks for any input!


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## pythonpants1970 (Apr 30, 2009)

*Venomous handling*

I've heard nothing but good things about robs encounters and displays


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## Sazzness (Oct 18, 2012)

Yesterday I went to one of Rob's encounter days at Scales and Tails and it was lovely. At the end we got to hook and tail a Gaboon Viper and pose for photos, with Rob watching and moving the Gaboon's head away if it turned. He really knew what he was doing and was really great. I know it's not a proper course, but a real taster. He even let me pick his brains about venomous and let me talk about Najas to him too.

I've only spoken to Dave over fb, but he seems a nice chap and a fellow Naja lover so, tbh, I think you would be fine either way. One pro of Rob is that he can come to you for a 1:1 1 hour venomous taster session. Either way, you will be learning from some of the most well known.


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

I can't comment on either of those that you mention but if you are in Nottingham then I suggest coming along to the IHS meetings that take place in Beeston once a month. There are several venomous keepers that regularly attend and they are more than happy to discuss venomous snakes all night long.

If you are on facebook then this is the page for the IHS group: https://www.facebook.com/#!/NottinghamIHSReptileGroup

David.


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

Maybe look into doing both? Nobody who operates courses claims that their methods of handling are definitive. You may learn a lot more by training with different people. We all have different ways of handling. So long as you do it safely, that is the important part.


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## berbers (May 29, 2010)

Thanks guys, i've had a chat with rob over FB and it looks like he can do 1:1 sessions. Probably best for me as a novice so i can go at my own pace. I've also heard excellent things about wrigglies so i'll look further into both


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

We also offer one to one sessions :2thumb:


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## LukeRutherford (Jun 15, 2010)

I've had a venomous course with Dave and Julian (Wrigglies) and it was great, learnt lots and worked with cool species, I've never had a course with Rob but have met him and he definatly knows his stuff and is a good bloke from what I've found, there are a few courses around I would like to do to learn different ways an techniques.


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## inkyjoe (Mar 31, 2008)

I havent had a session with Rob, but the course I attended at wrigglies was extremely informative, professionally conducted and over all, we all felt completely safe with Dave and Julian. I attended it with full intention of getting my DWAL, but I had 2 friends with me, one an avid snake keeper, but with no intention of getting hots, and the other, not even a reptile keeper. both thoroughly enjoyed it and said it was well worth the money


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

My 2 cents worth? I'd steer well clear of anyone who tails a Gaboon and even further away from someone who allows a total novice to do this. Gaboons can and will strike over their back at their tail faster than anyone can control them.........they do not like being tailed and, despite their size and weight can move and strike amazingly quickly. Another factor is that Bitis snakes in general are easily stressed and don't like frequent interactions with humans..so the constant mauling around of the snake is not good for it's well being. Bitis do best being left well alone!


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Additional to this, there are a lot of knowledgeable venomous keepers around who will, once they see you are serious and not an idiot, give you all the time and help you need....free. I seems that recently there has been an upturn in the interest in venomous snakes and there are some who have jumped on this particular bandwagon with a view to turning a fast buck. I'm not pointing the finger at any person in particular, but before you decide to lash out a lot of money, do a bit of background research and you may find that some of these 'experts' as one or two are wont to call themselves are not as experienced in the field as they make out. As I said in my post above, an experienced and knowledgeable venomous keeper would know that Bitis sp. are prone to stress and would not be the best candidates for being trawled around on 'display days', much less being mauled around for photo opportunities with novices, who, lets face it, wouldn't have the first idea about how much control the 'expert' has over a snake...until it become apparent that they don't actually have any control over it.....a large Gaboon with a hook end resting on it's head and someone grabbing it's tail remains under control for exactly as long as it wants to.......


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Safe successful keeping for a good period of time with a variety of species is a pretty good bench mark that anyone looking for a mentor should look at.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Exctly Si...who would you trust? A person who has a sound base of experience going back years, having built up their own experience with a variety of snakes and has a good network of fellow keepers, or a person who has pretty much bought their entire collection as adults in one fell swoop and now wants to pass on their vast knowledge and experience to others........for a price?
Do your research folks, before you part with any money for something you could get for free with a little bit of effort...........


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

I very rarely post on this forum but here are some thoughts for wqhat they are worth.

Anyone thinking that there is money to be made from running venomous courses should be locked up as insane!

There isnt..........trust me

As far as other comments go the value of any course is dependent upon a number of factors and what the trainer and attendee are looking for.

Its important for me to point out (for those that do not know me) that I do have a vested interest as we at Naturally Wild run academically accepted courses, however our DWA ones are very limited dates due to factors such as our business commitments (we have far more to do than plan venomous courses) and who actually wants them.

The biggest cost factor is time followed closely by insurance costs.

Insurance seems to be a factor that many seem to overlook 

Anyway there are some fine keepers out that may or may not be willing to offer training to those that can demonstrate common sense and maturity which are the two key elements in a risky hobby.

Unfortunately their are some muppets out there and that has been re-affirmed recently as one of two of the serious keepers are aware.

Anyway if you are a current or future keeper I would like to wish you a happy new years and a safe one. watch out for the sharp end guys!


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Nicely put Graeme. There is value in running 'courses' for those who will be working with or in the vicinity of venomous snakes. However, the average private keeper can gain all the knowledge they need and hands on experience simply by networking and not being a muppet.......and by developing a network of contacts, you can avoid being ripped off by cowboys and you will also have someone to call upon if you need help. Ask yourself this, will the folks you've just paid hundreds of pounds to for your 'training' be at the end of a phone and ready to come and help you remove an eyecap or assist feed a hatchling that's being stubborn?
Anyways, have a good 2014 and as Slippery said, 'stay away from the sharp end'


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Nicely put Graeme. There is value in running 'courses' for those who will be working with or in the vicinity of venomous snakes. However, the average private keeper can gain all the knowledge they need and hands on experience simply by networking and not being a muppet.......and by developing a network of contacts, you can avoid being ripped off by cowboys and you will also have someone to call upon if you need help. Ask yourself this, will the folks you've just paid hundreds of pounds to for your 'training' be at the end of a phone and ready to come and help you remove an eyecap or assist feed a hatchling that's being stubborn?
> Anyways, have a good 2014 and as Slippery said, 'stay away from the sharp end'


I suspect after sales in many cases is piss poor. Those with little or no long term business acumen will be clueless!


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## Cleopatra the Royal (Nov 29, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Nicely put Graeme. There is value in running 'courses' for those who will be working with or in the vicinity of venomous snakes. However, the average private keeper can gain all the knowledge they need and hands on experience simply by networking and not being a muppet.......and by developing a network of contacts, you can avoid being ripped off by cowboys and you will also have someone to call upon if you need help. Ask yourself this, will the folks you've just paid hundreds of pounds to for your 'training' be at the end of a phone and ready to come and help you remove an eyecap or assist feed a hatchling that's being stubborn?
> Anyways, have a good 2014 and as Slippery said, 'stay away from the sharp end'


What I found with doing the Wrigglies course is that it isn't just a "course, money please, thank you, bye bye", but have since kept in contact with Dave and Jules as 'useful' friends too. I'm now a regular customer up there (having not visited the shop before I did the course) and it was only last week I met up with Dave for help on getting some problem feeders going, and have been able to work with a range of their animals after the course too. As you say, its not just the course but the people who run it who make it.

Well worth the journey and the £150!


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## berbers (May 29, 2010)

I've just had a fantastic day at reptilelife (rob louth). Ive got little to no interest in keeping hots personally, just wanted to dive into snake keeping a bit further. Rob was fantastic, gave very clear instructions and demonstrations and always had mine and the safety as his priority. 

no tailing the gab, it was only out the viv for a short time and seemed very non fussed. 

All in all a great experience and would recommend anyone who wants a hands on introduction to venomous snakes


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## roblouth (Nov 15, 2009)

Stuart you are hardly someone to criticise me considering you have never met or spoken to me. Also you know nothing about my history or experience. 
In addition to that you keep your venomous snakes without a license or any insurance so I think you are hardly in any position to criticise.

I operate my business legally, I am properly licensed and fully insured, now I understand that the fact I have £10m PLI to do live handling venom displays as well as live DWA animal handling training has caused a ripple of jealousy with a few but the time has come to stop the childish comments.

My business runs with welfare as its number one priority, ask anyone who has booked anything I do. In accordance with that welfare is written in my contracts. I give help and advice out without charge and have done for over 15 years now. The fact that I run paid sessions has not changed this. My after care service is second to none and it will always be.

With this aspect of the hobby generating a broader interest among the general public its a shame that jealousy and petty insults have to emerge. I see no reason not to get on and promote safety and knowledge. 

Venomous snake handling courses/sessions are something that people are wanting, surely its best to have properly licensed and insured companies running these as opposed to buying a snake and working it out for yourself or doing it uninsured with a mate. How good a mate will it be if something goes wrong? It is both dangerous and wrong to promote private uninsured mentoring, I totally agree with Slippery on that front. Generally if someone offers you training for free they will have no insurance and should you get bitten where will the responsibility lie.

Reptile Life is perhaps the most recent company to be given insurance to run such sessions but just because the insurance is new does not mean the knowledge and experience is.

As Stuart says, do some digging, see what you find and the lack of proper licenses and insurances will amaze you. It did me.

I very rarely post on this forum, mainly due to comments like the above in this thread.


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## Jabba the mentor (Nov 13, 2008)

roblouth said:


> Also you know nothing about my history or experience.


What is your history and experience Rob?


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## House of Venom (Jun 23, 2013)

slippery42 said:


> I very rarely post on this forum but here are some thoughts for wqhat they are worth.
> 
> Anyone thinking that there is money to be made from running venomous courses should be locked up as insane!
> 
> ...



HAHAHAA Graeme!! you have nearly 1700 posts you [email protected]!!!! :lol2:


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

House of Venom said:


> HAHAHAA Graeme!! you have nearly 1700 posts you [email protected]!!!! :lol2:


I mean lately you knob


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## House of Venom (Jun 23, 2013)

wned8:


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## Jabba the mentor (Nov 13, 2008)

Jabba the mentor said:


> What is your history and experience Rob?


Your not going to answer then Rob?


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## downson22 (Jan 24, 2014)

haha stuart mate you are a joker

pretty sure you were going to set up a handling course with your mate Alex, who I remember posted pictures of himself tailing his gaboon with his "Bitis scoop" on his old house of venom page

such a hypocrite 

I take it you do keep illegally as you havent responded to rob


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## coldestblood (Jun 4, 2011)

downson22 said:


> haha stuart mate you are a joker
> 
> *pretty sure you were going to set up a handling course with your mate Alex, who I remember posted pictures of himself tailing his gaboon with his "Bitis scoop" on his old house of venom page*
> 
> ...


I'm not interested in getting involved in this discussion, but it's worth pointing out that both Stuart and Alex are experienced handlers, and NOT complete beginners, so your comment is irrelevant. 

The snake Alex was tailing belonged to him, and he knew the risks. He wasn't promoting tailing Bitis, he was merely demonstrating the hook. If people see a picture on the internet, take it out of context, and decide to copy it; maybe they should reconsider the type of animals they want to keep?


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## downson22 (Jan 24, 2014)

coldestblood said:


> I'm not interested in getting involved in this discussion, but it's worth pointing out that both Stuart and Alex are experienced handlers, and NOT complete beginners, so your comment is irrelevant.
> 
> The snake Alex was tailing belonged to him, and he knew the risks. He wasn't promoting tailing Bitis, he was merely demonstrating the hook. If people see a picture on the internet, take it out of context, and decide to copy it; maybe they should reconsider the type of animals they want to keep?


my point was in relation to Stuarts comment, about staying away from someone who tails Gaboons. that is not the only picture of Alex tailing Gaboons either. I have no problem with it or Alex, just how Stuart is a hypocrite, is Stuart now going to stay away from his own friends? 

Stuart may be experienced he's kept for a long time, but he still had a dig at the courses popping up to make money. Or am I mistaken, was Stuart going to run his course with HoV for free?


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## coldestblood (Jun 4, 2011)

downson22 said:


> my point was in relation to Stuarts comment, about staying away from someone who tails Gaboons. that is not the only picture of Alex tailing Gaboons either. I have no problem with it or Alex, just how Stuart is a hypocrite, is Stuart now going to stay away from his own friends?
> 
> Stuart may be experienced he's kept for a long time, but he still had a dig at the courses popping up to make money. Or am I mistaken, was Stuart going to run his course with HoV for free?


Are you being serious? 

An experienced keeper tailing a gabby isn't the same as a first time handler doing it. A newbie doesn't know the risks, how the snake will react, or where to draw the line. An experience keeper is far more capable of making a decision, based on experience, relating to their OWN safety. Just because he does it in the privacy of his own home, doesn't automatically mean he'll be teaching in a course designed for beginners. 

Are you a venomous keeper? If so, then you should know that people have their own style of handling, and if/when they mentor someone, the things they teach isn't always the same as how they handle snakes when the course isn't running. Kinda like a driving instructor. They teach people to drive all day, but in their own time, I very much doubt they'll hold the wheel at '10 to 2', put the handbrake on at red lights, or even stick to the speed limit or wear a seat belt. It's a no brainer really. 

By saying 'stay away from anyone who tails a gabby', I'm pretty sure it was in reference to newbies, and not experienced keepers - there's an old saying; 'do as I say, and not as I do'. Fits pretty well in this discussion


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## Matt king (Jan 25, 2013)

I have met Rob a few times and have seen his collection and talked all things cold blooded. I have no experience of venomous, but Robs passion and knowledge are obvious. He has his insurance and license for all to see and all the protocols in place. I can only call it is I see it with nothing to gain but his setup and professionalism seem top notch and if I ever did decide to go down the DWA route (not likely), I would have no hesitation in contacting Rob.


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## ecovivs (Mar 13, 2012)

*re*

cant quite work out who people are having a go at, is it wrigglies or rob louth, , ? surely its better having a choice, ?


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## Jabba the mentor (Nov 13, 2008)

Jabba the mentor said:


> What is your history and experience Rob?


Sorry but find this a little rude that I asked a question that I think is a very important one for anyone that is maybe thinking of getting into one of your courses and you dont answer it. 
So from what I can see you run courses and people are to take your word for it that you know what your doing as long as they dont want to know how experienced you are?


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## roblouth (Nov 15, 2009)

Well forgive me for not getting you a quick answer. 

As I said earlier, I don't bother with this website anymore as it seems to me to not be a good place. However I have little choice when my business and me personally are being mocked and challenged.

I am not going to list my history here and now but if anyone wants to know then try talking to me. I can be found on facebook and regularly post updates and information for one. 

All my contact details are available. Anyone who has met me or been taught by me can tell you all about me as I am open and tell them. Any of my friends, aquaintances, associates and clients will all tell you, it no secret and no one has to guess. 

It is a real shame that this hobby has a very negative element. I for one have no axe to grind with anybody and would much rather get along than spend time bickering and arguing. It is a total waste of time.


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## Benji-le3 (Aug 4, 2008)

I rarely ever comment on online arguments because I'm not a 13 year old girl, but slating someone or their business for something you've read online is retarded.. even for rfuk! In all fairness I have no DWA at the moment but it is something I'm looking into and Rob has helped me more than most people. I can honestly say he's been nothing but honest and open when we've spoke and as he's said he's more than happy to do the same with anyone on a one to one basis and to be fair why should someone have to try and justify their business over a forum?


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## Jeffers3 (May 18, 2010)

Benji-le3 said:


> I rarely ever comment on online arguments because I'm not a 13 year old girl, but slating someone or their business for something you've read online is retarded.. even for rfuk! In all fairness I have no DWA at the moment but it is something I'm looking into and Rob has helped me more than most people. I can honestly say he's been nothing but honest and open when we've spoke and as he's said he's more than happy to do the same with anyone on a one to one basis and to be fair why should someone have to try and justify their business over a forum?


 
Well said. I thought the non-DWA sections had enough bitching, but it seems that it's actually quite mature in there.

For what it's worth, the Wrigglies course is excellent. I thoroughly enjoyed it and cannot praise Julian enough for his enthusiasm and knowledge. We tailed a few snakes, but not a Gaboon Viper - although we did practice moving one of these using hooks and picked it up with a tube. The most difficult snake to deal with was actually the vietnamese blue beauty we started with - it wasn't happy!

I can't comment on Rob, as I don't know him, but the people who've spoken up for him are people that I know and whose opinions I trust.


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

PMSL, not been on here for a while and thankfully their is still some Irony here. lol:whistling2:


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

This has been quite an interesting thread to read through.

I would agree that mentoring / teaching has a number of pitfalls. People seem to quite happily accept that if they crash their car after passing their driving test, that it is not the fault of the instructor...... whereas (some) people seem to forget that an individual is responsible for their own safety when it comes to venomous reptiles. 

I run a Home Office accredited course specifically for scientists, researchers and animal technicians, which I occasionally extend to zoo keepers / safari park staff etc. One of the most important things that I try to get across is that I can show them (the student) a range of different techniques and then explain what the pros and cons of each method are. There is room for a person to develop their own "style" within what is still considered (relatively) safe... and that is where those of us with a lot of experience* can really help a novice venomous keeper.

I don't personally charge people for training and I quite often help private keepers in my own time for free.... I don't generally class those situations as mentoring but obviously those people are picking up on the techniques that I am using / showing them.... does that make it any less valuable than if I were to charge a fee?

There certainly IS a market for training / mentoring within the UK.... a person needs to do their home-work, check out the reputations of those offering training, ask as to how often they have had accidents in relation to the hours / years spent keeping venomous reptiles etc.


* My venomous experience extends back to the 1980's (zookeeper) and I have spent the last 21 years working in venom research with the UK's largest venomous collection.... so I'd like to think I know a little bit about the subject:notworthy:


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## Jeffers3 (May 18, 2010)

PDR said:


> This has been quite an interesting thread to read through.
> 
> I would agree that mentoring / teaching has a number of pitfalls. People seem to quite happily accept that if they crash their car after passing their driving test, that it is not the fault of the instructor...... whereas (some) people seem to forget that an individual is responsible for their own safety when it comes to venomous reptiles.
> 
> ...


You make some good points, but I don't see that the fee / no fee issue is even slightly relevant.

It would be good to see some sort of system for accreditation, but I'm not sure how this can be organised. The Home Office doesn't seem like the best place to look for experts, that's for sure. It's almost as daft as the local authorities issuing licences!

Rather than everyone bickering and bitching, wouldn't it be better if a definitive expert body was established, with the input of the many experts around? That body could then put in place training and mentoring guidelines and organise things in a professional manner.


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

Jeffers3 said:


> You make some good points, but I don't see that the fee / no fee issue is even slightly relevant.
> 
> It would be good to see some sort of system for accreditation, but I'm not sure how this can be organised. The Home Office doesn't seem like the best place to look for experts, that's for sure. It's almost as daft as the local authorities issuing licences!
> 
> Rather than everyone bickering and bitching, wouldn't it be better if a definitive expert body was established, with the input of the many experts around? That body could then put in place training and mentoring guidelines and organise things in a professional manner.


Well to clarify, the Home Office do not have any "experts" on their Staff when it comes to venomous snakes. They do have specialists in regards to the typical animals that may be encountered in a scientific / research setting.... but they were lacking in a specific module for venomous reptiles, that is why they tasked me with the job of designing and teaching an accredited course for them. 

I also, on occasion help local authorities in relation to the DWAL even though it is designed for Private Venomous Keepers.


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