# temperate marine tank?



## gizzard (May 5, 2008)

i think temperate is the word. well, what i mean is why dont many people have marine tanks with just critters from our coast? there basically free arent they? and there is liverock everywhere, dont think the sea would mind if you took a bit, theres hermit crabs and tonnes of other species, starfish, urchins snails gobies etc. and could you not use the water straight from the sea in your tank? filled with all the benificial bacteria and stuff already isnt it? 
i was wondering because i live near the sea and dont have much money so otherwise i will go tropical, but this was just sitting at the back of my mind, and i just want to know.
:smile:  :2thumb:


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

It doesn't sound like a good idea. You could try it but you'd still need the filters and skimmers and powerheads so you may aswell do it properly, why not a fish only set up? Use ocean rock ect


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## The Chillinator (Jun 26, 2008)

The reason for the lack of popularity in keeping native marine fish is simply because there isn't enough on the internet regarding their care, also most species have fairly drab colouration which doesn't really attract a lot of interest from fishkeepers. There are also certain legal issues with collecting livestock (such as location and size limits).

However native marine fish are actually hardier than their tropical counterparts, the most important thing to keep in mind is the tank's temperature. During the summer months overheating may be a problem, the higher the temperature of the water, the less capable it is of holding dissolved oxygen. Because of this you might need to employ a form of cooling (either an aquarium chiller or several fans blowing across the tank's surface) to keep the temperature within acceptable limits.

A skimmer isn't totally necessary if you stock the tank very lightly with fish however adding one would be beneficial. 

This might also be of some interest: British Marine Life Study Society


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## gizzard (May 5, 2008)

if i add fish it would only be one or two. im more interested in crabs/starfish/shrimp/anenomes but i dont see how a couple of rock gobies or something would be too bad.
i only have a small tank so nothing that is going to want to shoot around in open water.

will i need a RO unit (is that what its called?)? 
i would be able to get water from the sea every so often but could i use rainwater or treated tap water?
if not, how much is an RO unit? and how does it work?


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

If you're going to keep native species then collect your own sea water! Rock pool species are best but if the tank temp stays over 15c for long things will start to die...


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Caz said:


> If you're going to keep native species then collect your own sea water! Rock pool species are best but if the tank temp stays over 15c for long things will start to die...


I would disagree with that :? I wouldn't collect your own sea water unless you can be sure its safe. And, dont store it for any length of time. And dont let it come above the temp it is when you collect it, else things will die, and your various nitrogen values will all go up. 

I think the main problem is the fact that in any house, you wont be able to keep it at the 5-15C or so that the water needs to be kept at, at least not without a really expensive chiller. Thats why people dont really do it.


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## The Chillinator (Jun 26, 2008)

AshMashMash said:


> I would disagree with that :? I wouldn't collect your own sea water unless you can be sure its safe. And, dont store it for any length of time. And dont let it come above the temp it is when you collect it, else things will die, and your various nitrogen values will all go up.
> 
> I think the main problem is the fact that in any house, you wont be able to keep it at the 5-15C or so that the water needs to be kept at, at least not without a really expensive chiller. Thats why people dont really do it.


Ditto, the possibility of pollution is quite high. I would simply purchase your own RO unit and make up your own seawater using a good salt mix. You can purchase small RO units that produce around 40 gpd for about £45.

The ideal place for a native marine tank would be the garage as this will usually be cooler than the house, however you would then have problems with dust and of course the fumes from cars.


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## Omerov1986 (Feb 11, 2009)

you can make up your own salt with the synthetic salt its perfectly fine for native sp.'s, avoid ones with phosphorous additives, and you dont want to use real sea water, as the zoo plankton, then the phyto plankton start to die off in the water you have accumulated, causing ammonia spikes etc.

ive kept a native marine successfully with the use of a power head, undergravel filter and thants about it! 


so go for it, your dont meed all this skimmer bullshit, apart from a cooler in the mid summer time if it get rediculously warm, just keep an eye on your temps


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## The Chillinator (Jun 26, 2008)

Omerov1986 said:


> you can make up your own salt with the synthetic salt its perfectly fine for native sp.'s, avoid ones with phosphorous additives


As far as I know there are no synthetic sea salt brands on the market which contain added phosphate, this substance is a marine fishkeepers worst nightmare.


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

I looked into doing this when I set up my reef tank as I to love the inverts more than the fish, and find native species particularly interesting. As already said, heating is easier and cheaper than cooling and that is the main reason why I, and most people, dont keep them.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

AshMashMash said:


> I would disagree with that :? I wouldn't collect your own sea water unless you can be sure its safe. And, dont store it for any length of time. And dont let it come above the temp it is when you collect it, else things will die, and your various nitrogen values will all go up.
> 
> I think the main problem is the fact that in any house, you wont be able to keep it at the 5-15C or so that the water needs to be kept at, at least not without a really expensive chiller. Thats why people dont really do it.


AH NOT for tropical marine I wouldn't. *BUT* he is talking about keeping native species. Most likely found on the same beach as the water would be coming from!


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## owlbassboy (Jun 26, 2008)

Caz said:


> AH NOT for tropical marine I wouldn't. *BUT* he is talking about keeping native species. Most likely found on the same beach as the water would be coming from!


yeh have to agree with caz i used to keep a temperate tank til i moved house and set it all free. but my water changes were from the coast


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## gizzard (May 5, 2008)

uuuh.... mixed views....
if there were more interesting freshwater inverts then i would go for a freshwater, but i love the look of anenomes.
what kind of tank would a jellyfish need? they dont move themselves so i would guess something smallish with no sharp rocks?
still, its all just considering, doesnt mean i will do it for certain. just wondering what your views were.
i think i could keep it cold enough, would it not be warmer in a rockpool.

also... if i do go through with this and set it up, i will have to take creatures and rock from the wild which some people will disagree with, if you are going to start an argument about it i will not post pics, or i will and i will show you our "lovely seaside town" beach aswell. tbh, i think i would be rescuing these creatures if i did take them from the beach.
what really inspired me is 
1) seeing huge lobster with their claws taped sitting in murky sea-water in a fishmarket, waiting to be killed and slowly dieing anyway, and 
2)seeing the boats come in with all the fish and throwing unwanted fish onto the beach to die (instead of the sea, the fish were perfectly healthy) and using a mallet to smash live crabs that were tangled in their nets. i managed to save a couple of dogfish and a few very small plaice that were unwanted (i put them back in the sea) and a few spider crabs, but not many.

anyway, i would have to do slight bits of damage to the wildlife (breaking off little bits of live rock etc.) couple more questions : 
are the sand/stones from the beach ok?
how do you safely remove anenomes from rocks? (safely for me and, more importantly, the anenomes.)


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Caz said:


> AH NOT for tropical marine I wouldn't. *BUT* he is talking about keeping native species. Most likely found on the same beach as the water would be coming from!


Still, the risk of pollution, and killing of the microflora by accidental water warming is HUGELY high. 



gizzard said:


> what kind of tank would a jellyfish need? t


One you cant provide, in all honesty. Go to London Aquarium and take a look at theres. Its a cylindrical one, with nothing in, fed twice daily on live brine shrimp napuli, and thats really the only way. 



gizzard said:


> i think i could keep it cold enough, would it not be warmer in a rockpool.


I gurantee if you keep it at room temp, they'll die. Animals die in a rock pool, and can normall only last thre few hours they are warm. Buy a chiller. 



gizzard said:


> also... if i do go through with this and set it up, i will have to take creatures and rock from the wild which some people will disagree with, if you are going to start an argument about it i will not post pics, or i will and i will show you our "lovely seaside town" beach aswell. tbh, i think i would be rescuing these creatures if i did take them from the beach.


You're not rescuing them. Also, if you have boats on your beach, your water IS polluted, no doubt about it. Yes, animals live there.... but the volume of water is huge, and they can move... and, you dont see the dead animals. 



gizzard said:


> how do you safely remove anenomes from rocks? (safely for me and, more importantly, the anenomes.)


No way really with the beadlet and snakeslocks anemones we commonly get here... you'll likely damage them. Try and find some attached to small mobile rocks. Also, dont be silly! They cant hurt you at all, you never put your fingers in an anemone?! Your skin is way too thick. 

And, _lastly_, PUT SOME PICS UP! For jesus sake we all like pics, put some up if you do do it. 

And, prepare for moaning if your animals die... if they do, its 100% your fault.


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## gizzard (May 5, 2008)

...bit against the idea arent you... but you have good reason to be! 
how about an outside tank? bring it in when it starts to get near 0C outside and make sure it is in the shade when its near 20C outside?
how does a chiller work? must be able to make something that would do it?


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## gizzard (May 5, 2008)

AshMashMash said:


> And, prepare for moaning if your animals die... if they do, its 100% your fault.


well, who else would i blame? i understand it woud be entirely my fault, but i would probably try again, and try to use it as a learning experience for if i ever get a tropical reef tank or something.

thanks for all the help!:2thumb:


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

gizzard said:


> ...bit against the idea arent you... but you have good reason to be!
> how about an outside tank? bring it in when it starts to get near 0C outside and make sure it is in the shade when its near 20C outside?
> how does a chiller work? must be able to make something that would do it?


Seriously, you wont be able to control it properly. And... have you tried moving a fish tank? 

A chiller works like a fridge does. It uses the evaporation of a volatile liquid to take energy (heat) away from one place (the inside of the fridge, or, in this case, a fish tank) to another place (outside... the air). Chillers can be set to the temp you want, and will keep it steady. 



gizzard said:


> well, who else would i blame? i understand it woud be entirely my fault, but i would probably try again, and try to use it as a learning experience for if i ever get a tropical reef tank or something.
> 
> thanks for all the help!:2thumb:


Well, I meant that its _not_ "Just one of those things..." as some people would say. 

Also, I dont think it would help towards a tropical marine tank. If thats what you want, read up on it, and go for it. Dont dilly-daddle. I did it, so it cant be that hard. If you want a temperate marine tank, read up on it, and go for it...

I have always really wanted one of these. I thought having a resevoir, and two auto top up systems on timers to stimulate the tides, and a wave machine, and a sand beach, and things like that would be _amazing_. But, the reason I didn't go for it is because they would probably die, as I cant keep the temps low enough. 
In my honest opinion, go for it, IF you can be sure you're not just going to kill the animals. And, take a book with you when you go collecting, dont take random things. Know the species and requirements of everything you take BEFORE you take it.


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## gizzard (May 5, 2008)

just thought, at some of those sea life centre things, i remember there being open tanks, with anenomes and crabs, starfish etc. in them. would that work?
cant i make a tank? i can get glass, i can get aquarium sealer, how hard is it?
the reason i dont want a tropical marine is because i know nothing about them other than they take loads of work and loads of money. all i have saved up is £200 ish. so i dont think i can do anything special. (btw im 14, so cant get a full time job, so i only have a weekend job, so not much £££).
can you recomend a good website that can tell me about the requirements of all our common shore species?


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

You could do an open topped tank... it'd make no odds. Wouldn't be easier. Those tanks have chillers on, btw...

And, why would you make a tank? :? A nice size one would cost you £20-30 or so, thats all. No risk of leaking then. 

And... if you only have £200, then, that'll buy you about half a chiller. So, you're like 1/5th of the way to having a tank then!  

The only thing you're saving on by having a temperate is livestock costs. You probs wont buy a heater either... but chillers are more expensive than them. You'll still need everything else a tropical marine tank would contain. 

And I am not sure about websites, I am sure google knows of some though? :hmm: Ask him maybe.


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## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

I personally dont see why not, but, there might be laws protecting species and water pollution. Anyway, it would be really intresting if this does work, at pics are a must. Your bound to get the odd negative comment.


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## owlbassboy (Jun 26, 2008)

i ran one for ages with nothing other that lights and flow and weekly water changes. now you need to be aware that if you cant keep with the weekly water changes you will need more equipment. im not saying you will be like this but alot of people ive heard of keeping tanks like this end up neglecting them with the "well they didnt cost me anything" attitude, they should be cared for as any living creature.


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## Richcymru (Nov 21, 2008)

AshMashMash said:


> I would disagree with that :? I wouldn't collect your own sea water unless you can be sure its safe. And, dont store it for any length of time. And dont let it come above the temp it is when you collect it, else things will die, and your various nitrogen values will all go up.
> 
> I think the main problem is the fact that in any house, you wont be able to keep it at the 5-15C or so that the water needs to be kept at, at least not without a really expensive chiller. Thats why people dont really do it.



Load of rubbish! I use seawater I collect myself in my tropical marine tank and have done for a long time. My corals thrive, water quality is perfect and you also get a free source of plankton. Just make sure you collect it from an area of high flow and not somewhere like Blackpool beach lol. Im lucky as I live on the menai strait and there is a very low residence time for the water.


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## Richcymru (Nov 21, 2008)

Also, try MarLIN - The Marine Life Information Network. It doesnt give you requirements on captive care, but for many species it outlines their diet, habitat etc etc. At least then you will know if you can cater for their needs.

With regards to removing anemones, it is fairly easy to do without damaging the animal. The easiest way is to slide something underneath them like a piece of laminated card. An old credit card may work but they are a bit rigid. Try getting ones off smooth boulders. 

Please be aware of where you are collecting from as there are many beaches with varying degrees of protection which *may *include the following:

There are Sites of special scientific interest (SSSI's) which are covered by the wildlife and countryside act (which you might also want to check to see if the removal of a particular species is legal...see schedule 5 section 9) and it is necessary for you to inform the controling conservation agency of any removals/habitat damage. The SSSI only goes down to low water. 

Beyond this, the subtidal may be deemed a Marine Nature Reserve (MNR) also WAC act 1981, and stretches up to 3 nautical miles. However the MNR is a bit of an outdated idea now in the UK and there arent many of them left. 

there are also Special Areas of Conservation (SAC's) whch create a coherant network called Natura 2000 of European Marine Sites and is controlled under the European Habitats Directive. (Annex 1 covers habitats & Annex 2 covers species. See www.jncc.gov.uk/protected sites/sacselection). Just for comparison, 30% of Welsh coasts are SAC's. 

And lastly, all the previously-called Special Protected Areas (SPA's), formed under the Birds directive are now SAC's.

Hope this helps!


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## sasandjo (Dec 8, 2007)

i agree i'd happily use sea water too...would never of thought about it before till i saw a customers set up..which was running soley on collected water he had one 8x3x3 reef and another set up around the same for seahorses both ran better than mine..


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## Aquai (Feb 11, 2009)

It is possible.

The main problem with a temperate marine tank is the temperature, you'd need a chiller and if you were looking at rockpool life the water level and temperature fluctuates rapidly thoughtout the day and in order for some organisms to survive you would have to replicate this.

Having said that. It's doable and i've seen it done, i'll try find a thread from before on it.

James


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## Richcymru (Nov 21, 2008)

Aquai said:


> It is possible.
> 
> if you were looking at rockpool life the water level and temperature fluctuates rapidly thoughtout the day and in order for some organisms to survive you would have to replicate this.


Im not convinced by this. Species which can survive in rockpools do so because it is a niche that they are robust enough to exploit, not because they need to have daily changes in temperature and salinity.


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## Aquai (Feb 11, 2009)

I'm not saying all species, but some actually need the go though the cycle of submerged/dry in order to survive or so i've been told, i'll try get a list of some of the species, it was to do with the metabolism and when they were digesting.


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