# "wild type" leopard gecko's



## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

Do the Leo's we consider "normals" or "wild types" actually resemble wild Leo's? Does anyone have any pictures of Leo's in the wild?


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## Soulwax (Jan 6, 2009)

I've always wondered this


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## gartergoon (Feb 2, 2011)

arnt alot of african fat tails wc and imported do they differ from cb african fat tails ??? <--- sorry to jump the thread :] i also wondered


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## Alon93 (Jul 5, 2010)

gartergoon said:


> arnt alot of african fat tails wc and imported do they differ from cb african fat tails ??? <--- sorry to jump the thread :] i also wondered


Actually WC most of the times are very dark and faded while the CB I've seen are usually lighter in color with higher contrast.


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## gartergoon (Feb 2, 2011)

Alon93 said:


> Actually WC most of the times are very dark and faded while the CB I've seen are usually lighter in color with higher contrast.


:2thumb: iv never seen a cb one so but its interesting to see the visual differences between wc and cb


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

gartergoon said:


> arnt alot of african fat tails wc and imported do they differ from cb african fat tails ??? <--- sorry to jump the thread :] i also wondered


My WC fat tail looks nothing like my CB ones. 



Tombo46 said:


> Do the Leo's we consider "normals" or "wild types" actually resemble wild Leo's? Does anyone have any pictures of Leo's in the wild?


A friend of mine had WC leos a few years back. They had a much more slender appearance than any healthy CB animal. This isn't to say they were skinny, just a totally different shape. 
They were very spotty compared to our CB 'normals'. Pretty little things!


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## gartergoon (Feb 2, 2011)

Twiglet said:


> My WC fat tail looks nothing like my CB ones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



are the wc fats more visually appealing ? or 

any chance of comparing pictures :]


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Tombo46 said:


> Do the Leo's we consider "normals" or "wild types" actually resemble wild Leo's? Does anyone have any pictures of Leo's in the wild?


Here you go. CB leo's are mass intergrade/hybrids of most if not all of the below. There are also more that is't here.


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## Superarty (Feb 5, 2011)

The leopard gecko care guide I have has a picture of some wild caught leos. They are much duller in colour, with brown spots and a dull yellow background. As some have already said, the captive bred 'normals' are just high-contrast versions of these.


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

Alon93 said:


> Actually WC most of the times are very dark and faded while the CB I've seen are usually lighter in color with higher contrast.


I have both WC and CB and (apart from the amels) size is for the most part the only difference between them


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## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

Thanks for the info people. Been educational!


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi guys and gals, there is two pages about wild leos in P.R.K this month, it's out now. The wild argument is broad and needs a lot of proper thought. In my long experience wild caught freshly imported animals are always bigger, brighter and less prone to some of the infections associated with forced captive breeding. I feel we need a huge import of leos to bring back some strong blood back intomthe stream. Wild leos seems to be immune to cripto, and are seriously larger and very brightly coloured. I feel that we also need wild imports of corns as the morphs that are now easily produced are so far from any wild mutation that the animals suffer, skin problems, being extremely light averse and short lived. 

Let me know what you think


John courteney-smith. Arcadia products.


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## Tadashii (Oct 4, 2010)

Interesting point of view John, I hadn't considered some of the benefits of wild caught specimens, and it's interesting that they seem to be immune to crypto. I had thought that WC animals generally were more likely to carry problem levels of parasites. Part of me doesn't like the idea of taking an animal from it's environment and plonking it in a viv, which is perhaps a sentimental view, but I tend to think that an animal that has only ever known life in captivity is likely to be a happier animal than one that has had to adjust from complete freedom to life in a viv.
I might actually go buy PRK later as I'd be interested to know more.


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## Tetley (Feb 26, 2011)

I suppose at some point in the past, someone caught a load and bred them, otherwise we wouldn't have captive bred, so it had to happen at some point.

I agree with the fact that I think we need stronger blood. They are probably immune to crypto because of the fact that they live out in the wild - this is like people who protect their children from every possible germ by obsessively using dettol on everything, and then the child goes to school and gets ill all the time - no immune system, because it hasn't had the chance to build up in it's own environment. I suspect that this is why captive bred leos are more susceptible, because they simply haven't had the chance to build up antibodies.

In a way, I would like to see less morphs - some of them (i.e. enigma) actually have issues related to the morph, so why keep breeding this in on purpose? I feel the same way about this as I do about certain breeds of dog (and I'm sure other animals), that were bred a certain way that now causes health problems. There are certain breeds of dog that I would never dream of buying due to this, and this is the same reason why I wouldn't buy an enigma.

But the short of what I think is that Arcadiajohn is right - we need some wc leos brought in to toughen up the bloodline a bit.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Yes you are correct, the parasite load can be a problem As well as stress, both are huge causes of motility in imported animals, but if dealt with properly this can be overcome. To put into perspective before the unfair and unwarranted ban on wild caught birds nearly 7 years ago we worked on a 0.2% D.O.A rate. This is infinitely small, less than some captive bred/farmed imports. The same can apply for reptiles. Shipping methods and holding stations are improving all the time.I documented the royal import 2 years ago. Ghana farmed royals. 4 thousand snakes and only two D.O.A! This is how is should be. Most fed on day one and with the proper time and care most if not all were not problematic. Sustainable harvest, tax revenue and a vested interest in being the best to secure next years trade is all it takes. For me the obsession with breeding high morphs,far, far removed from any wild mutation represents terrible problems. We now have thin weak animals that look and behave nothing like the original animal. The animal nature selected is the right kind. Mutated and changed to it's environment over eons to be the very best at what it does. Human interference has generated nothing more than a real live cash cow that cannot open it eyes even under extremely low light, dies after 5 years, gets sick and feeble. Wild leos bask in full desert sun! We all know this but some choose to bury heads while the pursuit of the next big thing takes over from true animal welfare. Let's inject some wild, strong blood back in before we get like corn snakes,,,,,see through animals!


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

Tadashii said:


> I had thought that WC animals generally were more likely to carry problem levels of parasites.


*nods* they do ... my first leos were WC and were heavily parasitised, underweight and in general poor condition



Arcadiajohn said:


> We now have thin weak animals that look and behave nothing like the original animal. The animal nature selected is the right kind. Mutated and changed to it's environment over eons to be the very best at what it does. Human interference has generated nothing more than a real live cash cow that cannot open it eyes even under extremely low light, dies after 5 years, gets sick and feeble.


whilst I might agree that some breeders (and owners) treat their leo like cashcows many do not and I'm sorry but I for one find your repeated comments about 'thin, weak animals that are feeble, get sick and die' rather insulting as many responsible breeders/owners breed their leos not only with great care and attention but also to a high standard of health..... we're not all moneygrabbers after the 'great cashcow'


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## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

SleepyD said:


> *nods* they do ... my first leos were WC and were heavily parasitised, underweight and in general poor condition
> 
> 
> whilst I might agree that some breeders (and owners) treat their leo like cashcows many do not and I'm sorry but I for one find your repeated comments about 'thin, weak animals that are feeble, get sick and die' rather insulting as many responsible breeders/owners breed their leos not only with great care and attention but also to a high standard of health..... we're not all moneygrabbers after the 'great cashcow'


What is this cashcow? And where can I get one? Will it fit in a 30x30x30 exo terra if I let it out for walks every day?


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## yellrat (Jun 13, 2008)

SleepyD said:


> *nods* they do ... my first leos were WC and were heavily parasitised, underweight and in general poor condition
> 
> 
> whilst I might agree that some breeders (and owners) treat their leo like cashcows many do not and I'm sorry but I for one find your repeated comments about 'thin, weak animals that are feeble, get sick and die' rather insulting as many responsible breeders/owners breed their leos not only with great care and attention but also to a high standard of health..... we're not all moneygrabbers after the 'great cashcow'


Agree with sleepyD 
none of my Leos are thin sick or feeble complete opposite to be honest only a few of mine are light sensitive this is only to really bright light because they are albino it is to be expected.
what you are saying is quite insulting to the breeders who put the time and effort in to produce healthy strong gorgeous leopard geckos.
the only leopard gecko morphs that i know of that have troubles are enigmas which i refuse to breed because of the associated problems with them.
I'm not against people breeding or owning enigmas just my personal preference not to.
i dont really agree with pulling animals out of the wild either if every leo breeder across the world decided this was a good idea to take from the wild to strenghten their blood lines of their breeders how many leopard geckos would be left in the wild.


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## yellrat (Jun 13, 2008)

gazz said:


> Here you go. CB leo's are mass intergrade/hybrids of most if not all of the below. There are also more that is't here.
> 
> image
> image
> ...


Gazz what book was this taken from looks like a good one to add to my library


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

yellrat said:


> Gazz what book was this taken from looks like a good one to add to my library


think you'll find the pics are from 'The Eyelash Gecko ~ Care, Breeding and Natural History' by Hermann Seufer, Yuri Kaverkin and Andreas Kirschner.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

My comments are based on scientific ideas and forethought and take the animal group as a whole into consideration, at no point have I alluded to mis care or neglect, it is my opinion which counts just as much as all of us that the perpetuation of these high end mutations which does effect the health and well-being of the creature regardless of the standard of care is not sustainable. *We all love our pets and study samples but we have too always bare in mind what is best for the group as a whole and for the long term. In my long experience a high *percentage of the animals I regularly see are in my mind substandard. Bred for colour and not for the fitness of the animal. As we fight against the onslaught of animal rights and anti reptile people we need to be watertight in our husbandry and genetics. With the enigma we have a prime example of a freak of human tinkering. A basking animal that can no longer behave as wild! I look forward to seeing what happens long term. 

John courteney-smith. Arcadia products **


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Arcadiajohn said:


> Hi guys and gals, there is two pages about wild leos in P.R.K this month, it's out now. The wild argument is broad and needs a lot of proper thought. In my long experience wild caught freshly imported animals are always bigger, brighter and less prone to some of the infections associated with forced captive breeding. I feel we need a huge import of leos to bring back some strong blood back intomthe stream. Wild leos seems to be immune to cripto, and are seriously larger and very brightly coloured. I feel that we also need wild imports of corns as the morphs that are now easily produced are so far from any wild mutation that the animals suffer, skin problems, being extremely light averse and short lived.
> 
> Let me know what you think
> 
> ...



I'd be seriously interested in seeing _any_ evidence to suggest that WC animals are larger than their CB relatives, the reason I would be interested, is that this is exactly the opposite to the observed data. Captive lines have been selected for increased size, and weight and this has been _very_ successful. In short, suggesting that CB animals represent smaller 'less fit' (physical appearance) animals is completely unjustified, they are in fact larger (length and width), have faster growth rate, and increased potential for fat storage. If you intend to based estimates of 'fitness' on this character, WC lose out every time... As for brighter? You'll have difficulty selling that one.

Furthermore I am yet to see a _single_ animal that expresses immunity to cryptosporidiosis. I find it _very VERY_ unlikely that a animal that posses this will every be discovered. I think you may be misinterpreting patterns of parasite tolerance between the two groups. Yes, there is certainly a high proportion of 2-3 parasites which are very prevenlant in captivity, but no evidence to suggest reduced tolerance. This is not a result of line-breeding, but questionable husbandry. If anything there is a greater case to suggest that parasite tolerance has been selected _for_ in captive lines. To suggest that WC individuals are more tolerant to parasites is another misunderstanding I would say. They are likely tolerant of _different_ parasites due to different selection pressure. 

It seems strange to me, why do we have to maintain a species that resembles those in the wild? We have the ability to alter our husbandry to accommodate the necessary changes, so why does it matter?

Finally, Short lived? Compared to the wild?...




Arcadiajohn said:


> Yes you are correct, the parasite load can be a problem As well as stress, both are huge causes of motility in imported animals, but if dealt with properly this can be overcome. To put into perspective before the unfair and unwarranted ban on wild caught birds nearly 7 years ago we worked on a 0.2% D.O.A rate. This is infinitely small, less than some captive bred/farmed imports. The same can apply for reptiles. Shipping methods and holding stations are improving all the time.I documented the royal import 2 years ago. Ghana farmed royals. 4 thousand snakes and only two D.O.A! This is how is should be. Most fed on day one and with the proper time and care most if not all were not problematic. Sustainable harvest, tax revenue and a vested interest in being the best to secure next years trade is all it takes. For me the obsession with breeding high morphs,far, far removed from any wild mutation represents terrible problems. We now have thin weak animals that look and behave nothing like the original animal. The animal nature selected is the right kind. Mutated and changed to it's environment over eons to be the very best at what it does. Human interference has generated nothing more than a real live cash cow that cannot open it eyes even under extremely low light, dies after 5 years, gets sick and feeble. Wild leos bask in full desert sun! We all know this but some choose to bury heads while the pursuit of the next big thing takes over from true animal welfare. Let's inject some wild, strong blood back in before we get like corn snakes,,,,,see through animals!


Is the problem that you don't like captive leopard gecko phenotypes? There seems to be a lot of generalizations being made, but I'm not seeing any evidence to suggest that these claims have any foundation in fact. Yes, the vast majority of this species sold to 'new' keepers die in less than 2 years. This is true, but this is undoubtedly the result of husbandry issues, and not reduced fitness. Would you care to hazard a guess at what would happen if CB animals were swapped with WC (or any combination of the two) in this situation?... exactly the same.




Arcadiajohn said:


> My comments are based on scientific ideas and forethought and take the animal group as a whole into consideration, at no point have I alluded to mis care or neglect, it is my opinion which counts just as much as all of us that the perpetuation of these high end mutations which does effect the health and well-being of the creature regardless of the standard of care is not sustainable. *We all love our pets and study samples but we have too always bare in mind what is best for the group as a whole and for the long term. In my long experience a high *percentage of the animals I regularly see are in my mind substandard. Bred for colour and not for the fitness of the animal. As we fight against the onslaught of animal rights and anti reptile people we need to be watertight in our husbandry and genetics. With the enigma we have a prime example of a freak of human tinkering. A basking animal that can no longer behave as wild! I look forward to seeing what happens long term.
> 
> John courteney-smith. Arcadia products **


'fitness' is relative, and the traits which constitute it, are many and varied. The vast majority of leopard geckos produced are selected for a variety of fitness characters (including, size, fertility, fecundity, growth rate, appetite... its a _very_ long list before we get to appearance).

You mention animals being "sub-standard", what are your criteria for this assessment?

"...a freak of human tinkering" in what way?

I have no problem with suggesting that increasing genetic diversity represents a good option, with realized population size decreasing with each subsequent generation, but I think you may be expecting too much if it were to happen. The problem here is not the animals, it is the way they are kept by some people. WC animals will not solve this.

Andy


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## olivine (Feb 5, 2009)

SleepyD said:


> *nods* they do ... my first leos were WC and were heavily parasitised, underweight and in general poor condition
> 
> 
> whilst I might agree that some breeders (and owners) treat their leo like cashcows many do not and I'm sorry but I for one find your repeated comments about 'thin, weak animals that are feeble, get sick and die' rather insulting as many responsible breeders/owners breed their leos not only with great care and attention but also to a high standard of health..... we're not all moneygrabbers after the 'great cashcow'


Absolutely agree with the above. To make such sweeping generalisations about the motivation of leo breeders and the standard of care that they provide for their animals is, quite frankly, nothing short of contemptible. 



GlasgowGecko said:


> I'd be seriously interested in seeing _any_ evidence to suggest that WC animals are larger than their CB relatives, the reason I would be interested, is that this is exactly the opposite to the observed data. Captive lines have been selected for increased size, and weight and this has been _very_ successful. In short, suggesting that CB animals represent smaller 'less fit' (physical appearance) animals is completely unjustified, they are in fact larger (length and width), have faster growth rate, and increased potential for fat storage. If you intend to based estimates of 'fitness' on this character, WC lose out every time... As for brighter? You'll have difficulty selling that one.
> 
> Furthermore I am yet to see a _single_ animal that expresses immunity to cryptosporidiosis. I find it _very VERY_ unlikely that a animal that posses this will every be discovered. I think you may be misinterpreting patterns of parasite tolerance between the two groups. Yes, there is certainly a high proportion of 2-3 parasites which are very prevenlant in captivity, but no evidence to suggest reduced tolerance. This is not a result of line-breeding, but questionable husbandry. If anything there is a greater case to suggest that parasite tolerance has been selected _for_ in captive lines. To suggest that WC individuals are more tolerant to parasites is another misunderstanding I would say. They are likely tolerant of _different_ parasites due to different selection pressure.
> 
> ...


Again, I agree entirely. 

Arcadiajohn; could you please explain what, precisely, you have against CB leopard geckos? You have repeatedly made comments extolling the virtues of WC leos while denigrating their CB counterparts (for example, here), but have consistently failed to provide any evidence to support the claims that you make (possibly, I suspect, because many of your generalisations simply cannot be substantiated by reference to research papers etc).

As it was you who, I believe, wanted to know "how long will it be before the 5 freedoms get teeth?", I am beginning to seriously question the motivations behind some of your more provocative statements.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

This is always going to be a can of worms of personal preference. I can only write about the facts as they are presented to me by vets, breeders and importers. My personal opinion is that I cannot see the validity in the perpetuation of a non normal genetic morph that has genetic faults. This is common in all animal species that have been changed. Stuart worth made a very interesting comment to me, that you cannot change or manipulate one gene say for coloration without it having another effect somewhere along the line. Look at the high end spider royals, the things strike upside down and stargaze for hours, the enigma twists and turns and has to be kept pretty much in a dark box, again eating upside down in some cases I have seen, no one can say this is good or should be available to the mainstream. With regard to fact the animals presented to me as F1 babies were indeed much larger than mass farmed babies born in the same time frame and they were much fitter and brighter in comparison. That is the fact as presented to me by the breeder. Good breeding records also backed up the thought patterns. I am as always concerned with the welfare of animals and the welfare of trade that I 
have spent my life in.

I have seen the bird trade stolen from us because we were not ready and did not place high enough priority on captive stocks or have proper zoological or genetic arguments ready. The reptile trade will be next and we need to be faultless in our practises and genetic blood stock. We should utalise the information we have within our hobby to make sure that animals are available for future generations, fit and healthy and without the possibility for anyone to 
say or find fault with what we do.

Fitness to me is associated with natural behaviour! Animals that are able to live as close to a natural life in captivity as they would in the wild. They should not be subjected to disease or infection if we can at all help it. Crypto is a killer, and a foul way for a animal to die. If we can learn from the wild stock to introduce strength against this disease and those like it, it can only be good. M.B.D is at an all time high in leos, again info taken from a cross section of herp vets. Why? We must do all we can to combat what may be bad husbandry. If looking at sustainable bloodlines is part of this process it can only be good.

To conclude, you are correct my personal opinion is that any morph that has a detrimental effect on the animal should not be perpetuated. But I am not against colour variants. I have a yellow belly royal my self, taken from captive farmed stock and so a wild variant. I do passionately believe in our hobby and the positive effect it has in society. I do have a vested interest in seeing the hobby grow and expand and I always try to put the health and wellbeing of the specises first. As I said this is my opinion and it seems from reasearch in the trade that others feel the same.

Topics like this are not meant to be dictatorial but simply encourage keepers and breeders to think outside the box. What have we done, what can we do and what can we change to make things better in retrospect. 

John.


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## olivine (Feb 5, 2009)

What I find disturbing is that you repeatedly appear to make 'statements of fact', such as that "We now have thin weak animals that look and behave nothing like the original animal...Human interference has generated nothing more than a real live cash cow that cannot open it eyes even under extremely low light, dies after 5 years, gets sick and feeble". This is, quite frankly, a complete distortion and totally disregards the very large number of conscientious keepers who are dedicated to breeding animals (both wild-type and morphs) whose overall level of health and captive lifespan far exceeds that of their wild counterparts (I do wonder what percentage of the wild leo population ever reaches five years of age?)

However, once again you haven't provided any evidence to support your sweeping generalisations...merely that "can only write about the facts as they are presented to me by vets, breeders and importers". I'm sure that an equal number of "vets, breeders and importers" who are active members on this forum could provide substantial evidence of their own to refute your arguments. Indeed, this has happened on here in the past. Yet when your statements are challenged, for example as happened  here, you simply resort to "I only know what I have been shown and told". 

While I in no way wish to stifle debate on the forum, I would hope that, when statements are made that appear to denigrate the motivations of large numbers of members on here and condemn the overall condition of their animals, then more than hearsay evidence can be produced to substantiate the claims being made.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Arcadiajohn said:


> The wild argument is broad and needs a lot of proper thought. In my long experience wild caught freshly imported animals are always bigger, brighter and less prone to some of the infections associated with forced captive breeding. I feel we need a huge import of leos to bring back some strong blood back intomthe stream. Wild leos seems to be immune to cripto, and are seriously larger and very brightly coloured. I feel that we also need wild imports of corns as the morphs that are now easily produced are so far from any wild mutation that the animals suffer, skin problems, being extremely light averse and short lived.


The size of any WC leo would depend on the leo species/sub-species. I don't find CB leo's smaller that WC leo's, Coz most CB leo's are fat. Infact leo's do get a fair amount of WC leo blood just 3-4 year back Crystal palace reptiles got a stock of WC leo's that have spead out into the UK leo stock. Plus main land Europe and the USA often breed there male WC stock or pure leo stock males that have only been CB for a couple generations to female CB stock.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Well I'm not sure what more I can do to provide evidence, apart from the extensive studies and conversations that I have have on a daily basis. As I have always written this is my opinion, my opinion can be backed up by studies and practical keeping techniques that I or people I have contact with conduct. I would love to hear from any and every herp vet that has other views! This is how we all learn. Maybe you could read the paper published in P.R.K for the facts as presented by the breeder that we in turn presented to the readership.

I am certainly not anti captive bred!! You could not be further from the truth but I am passionate about getting things right. As you mentioned the five freedoms earlier. They make sense to me. Regardless of my personal views about the origin it makes sense to provide the very best of care, always. The five freedoms go along way to assure we provide minimum standards. I know a gov adviser on the topic and I am assured that the gov have every intention on making it law in fullness. So we should be ready for it.

Again, my views are my views and my views are influenced by studies and the professionals I have contact with, I am open and willing to be presented with any facts or ideas from any quarter, if anyone can prove to me that high end morps are sound genetically and able to live a normal life I am more than willing to listen and write accordingly. 

This is what I do, I study, I read, I keep animals, i write about my findings and design product that enhances the life of animals and keepers alike.

By debate we all learn and in turn we provide a better environment for our animals. Better breeding, healthier and long lived animals are all a byproduct of education. 
John


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Arcadiajohn said:


> This is always going to be a can of worms of personal preference. I can only write about the facts as they are presented to me by vets, breeders and importers. My personal opinion is that I cannot see the validity in the perpetuation of a non normal genetic morph that has genetic faults. This is common in all animal species that have been changed. Stuart worth made a very interesting comment to me, that you cannot change or manipulate one gene say for coloration without it having another effect somewhere along the line. Look at the high end spider royals, the things strike upside down and stargaze for hours, the enigma twists and turns and has to be kept pretty much in a dark box, again eating upside down in some cases I have seen, no one can say this is good or should be available to the mainstream. With regard to fact the animals presented to me as F1 babies were indeed much larger than mass farmed babies born in the same time frame and they were much fitter and brighter in comparison. That is the fact as presented to me by the breeder. Good breeding records also backed up the thought patterns. I am as always concerned with the welfare of animals and the welfare of trade that I
> have spent my life in.
> 
> I have seen the bird trade stolen from us because we were not ready and did not place high enough priority on captive stocks or have proper zoological or genetic arguments ready. The reptile trade will be next and we need to be faultless in our practises and genetic blood stock. We should utalise the information we have within our hobby to make sure that animals are available for future generations, fit and healthy and without the possibility for anyone to
> ...


I don't need to repeat what Val has said here, but there are a few points that I think are worth raising:

1) "Stuart worth made a very interesting comment to me, that you cannot change or manipulate one gene say for coloration without it having another effect somewhere along the line" - This is absolute non-sense, and represents a real misunderstanding of basic genetics. Firstly, there is no manipulation of genes occurring. _ALL_ mutations which cause an altered phenotype in this species are naturally occurring. Captive breeding does not cause mutation. Secondly, to suggest that all pigment mutations have other (deleterious or otherwise) functions is completely unfounded.

2) You pick up two common reduced fitness traits, which are linked to a single phenotype (in each case several linked mutations), and thus are not present in any other morph. This does not reduce the fitness of the 'genepool' as these defects are only within single morphs.

3) Inbreeding and its associated reduction in 'fitness' is equally common in the 'wild', populations are equally restricted, the problem you allude to is equally rife. The only difference is stricter selection.

4) You encourage us to be faultless in our "practices and genetic blood stock" yet you seemed to have over looked all the real problems in the things you are saying. Stringent selection, and continued breeding in the same manner is far more likely to remove the negative effects of inbreeding and increase 'fitness' (but not the very odd definition you have, which isn't fitness), than adding "new blood" will.

Andy


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Arcadiajohn said:


> Maybe you could read the paper published in P.R.K for the facts as presented by the breeder that we in turn presented to the readership.


Perhaps we have different ideas about what constitutes a _fact_ and what constitutes a paper...

I will try not to rant about the five freedoms, but as I mentioned on another thread where you mentioned them, I would love to know how you think it is good practice to enforce "freedom" four... This list, is clearly not designed with reptiles in mind... nor would I suggest enforcing will increase the level of captive care.

Andy


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

No you are very right, the five freedoms have not had any reptile thought, which is why the industry is being consulted. Keeping of snakes in RUBS was very close to being shut down until the experts stepped in and explained the agoraphobic tendencies and the benefits in some cases. So work is going on behind closed doors for all our benefits. At least 2 of them make sense to me and I can see the benefits. Number 4 does not, but we will have to present our arguments accordingly.

The leos in my case study were from the same import the previous poster mentioned that Darren had. It was to my best knowledge, and knowing the importer very well the last large import into the U.K. They were as always spread out all through the trade. 


John



GlasgowGecko said:


> Perhaps we have different ideas about what constitutes a _fact_ and what constitutes a paper...
> 
> I will try not to rant about the five freedoms, but as I mentioned on another thread where you mentioned them, I would love to know how you think it is good practice to enforce "freedom" four... This list, is clearly not designed with reptiles in mind... nor would I suggest enforcing will increase the level of captive care.
> 
> Andy


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## olivine (Feb 5, 2009)

You stated earlier that "my comments are based on scientific ideas and forethought...". The point that I have repeatedly attempted to make is that, until you provide access to the evidence upon which you've based your claims (for example, by referring to specific studies that can be consulted), other members cannot assess the validity of your arguments. 

This forum is a wonderful resource for learning; if you have things to teach us, that's fantastic. However, I'm afraid that I really do need to see evidence first hand so that I can make up my own mind, not simply rely upon the opinions of others (but maybe that's the scientist in me coming out).


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Point taken, I am in the process amongst the other million things I have to do of compiling an online resource available through the Arcadia website of all the current studies. I am sometimes limited as I am given access to unfinished papers which I am not aloud to name by name but can drop hints about with permission. A lot of our data is provided by simply asking questions and listening and keeping animals under test environments in-house. I have contact with many, many reptile professionals that most do not and I totally respect and learn from their mistakes and advice. 30 years in this industry and I genuinely learn something new everyday. I will always pass on the hints and tips I learn on my journey into reptiles and I truly hope that reptiles are better off from some of the info I pass on.

John 



olivine said:


> You stated earlier that "my comments are based on scientific ideas and forethought...". The point that I have repeatedly attempted to make is that, until you provide access to the evidence upon which you've based your claims (for example, by referring to specific studies that can be consulted), other members cannot assess the validity of your arguments.
> 
> This forum is a wonderful resource for learning; if you have things to teach us, that's fantastic. However, I'm afraid that I really do need to see evidence first hand so that I can make up my own mind, not simply rely upon the opinions of others (but maybe that's the scientist in me coming out).


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## Demonique (May 5, 2007)

What does PKR stand for? I'll have to see if I can get a copy.

Some of those wild leos are lovely


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## Austin Allegro (Oct 5, 2008)

I got a pair of Afghanicus leos that I imported from PACHERP last September (2010). T Me tinks they qualify as real bad wild. got a piccy of them on my blog at 
Lowestoft Leopard Geckos
Think its the post called Afghan asylum seekers celebrate their first christmas in Lowestoft


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