# Basic EPS



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Hope this helps.

I am still getting to grips with the enormity of this piece of legislation.
R

Basic Guide by Ssthisto

*European Protected Species Licensing*
*How Does It Affect Me?*​ 
On the 21st of August, 2007, new laws came into force about licensing European species of animal kept in Britain. The "European Protected Species Act" (*EPS* from here on) makes it *illegal* to:
*

Catch, injure or kill
*
listed animals *without a license*.*
[*]Own* an animal or any part of a listed animal* without a license*.*
[*]Sell or transport* a listed animal or any part of one *without a separate license*.
Animals which have been completely legal to buy, sell and keep for the last thirteen years must now be licensed.

*Who does it affect?*

You – or someone you know – is probably affected by these new laws. 
If someone owns an animal that is listed in the *EPS*, they have to do one of the following four things in order to keep their animals if they are challenged:

*Prove* that their animals were *captive bred
[*]Prove* that their animals were *wild caught outside the EU
[*]Prove* that they personally have *owned the animals since 1993
[*]Obtain a license* from Natural England to keep the animals
*This does not sound so bad – but….*
You can be prosecuted for having an unlicensed *EPS* animal – with a maximum *fine of £5000* and a *jail sentence of six months*. 
Courts in these cases have to assume that any *EPS* animal is *wild caught and needs licensing* – and it’s *up to you to* *prove* *that you don’t* need a license for your animals.

*When you got it*, *did you keep a receipt?* You’ll need this as proof of when and where you got it.
Can you *prove* to a Court that your animals were *captive bred*? The law has not been tested yet – so *we don’t know* if a letter from the breeder or a pet shop will be enough evidence.
If you know your animal was *wild caught, where was it caught* – and *who brought it to the UK*? The import documents do not list individual animals with photos – can you prove that your animal is listed on a Customs import sheet?
*If you think you DO need a license….*
You only have until *November 21st 2007* to apply for your license for any animals you own now – on that date, the *three-month grace period expires*.
To apply for your license, you need *receipts*, information about* where the animal came from*, and *any import or official paperwork* you can find for your animal.

You may also need *references* to say you know how to care for your animals – and when you apply, they want to know *how you’re housing them*, too.

They also ask why you think *you* need to keep the animals – and "because they’re my pets" might not cut it.

If you keep your animals at home, the license document also says that *Natural England can make a site visit*… and you don’t even have to be at home.

*What if I can’t get a license?*

At this point… we don’t know what happens if they refuse you a license.
This might trigger a prosecution – if they refuse, they may say that you own illegal, unlicensed animals and take it to court. If you’re prosecuted, they will probably take your animals away for the duration of the court case.

And if you lose, your animals may be put to sleep or sold on. 

*What if I don’t even try for a license?*

If you think you’re better off not applying for a license and just hiding your animals, please keep the following in mind:

Your animals may need *vet care* in the future…
If you have ever talked about them online or to friends, they’re no longer a secret…
Hiding them might work for a while – but do you really want to risk it?
*What can I do?*

*First:* *Read the list of affected species here*. If you or someone you knows has an animal on the list – or wants to get one – read on
.
*Second:* Read the "*EPS Legislation: What Pet Shops Don’t Know Can Hurt You*" article. This will help you chase up the documents you need for any animals you own now.
*Third:* If you have a bit of time, read the "*EPS Licensing – Damned if you Do, Damned if you Don’t*" article. It’s long, but it covers some of the problems with the licenses in more detail.
*Fourth:* *Join the Pro Keepers Lobby* at www.prokeeperslobby.com – let your voice be heard for the rights of the animals who are at risk.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Funny*

You know, 

I created two threads today.

This was the first. Biggest Crime was the second.

This thread is the more important of the two for the keepers whom are affected by the European Protected Species act. But it is a guide for all, in layman terms to the EPS legislation.

It was requested by many, and here it is.

Perhaps if l had guidelined it Numpties Guide, Or Eejits Guide, l would have been slammed for that also.

Far too many are keen to take on board a glamourous thread title than a simple:

Basic EPS.

This too is apathy, to go for something that may reveal something a little hot or spicy. But when it comes down to the actual information on something that will potentially kill 500K+ species, it is not really viewed, now that tells me more about you as keepers.

This is a good basic guide.

R


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

im really at a total loss on this.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

SiUK said:


> im really at a total loss on this.


Something else you can do, Si, is:

Send a letter to [email protected]

And ask them one or more of the following questions, in your own words:



> Does this legislation apply to every single person in the UK who currently owns or may wish to sell an animal listed on the European Protected Species Annex IV list?
> How likely is it that a pet keeper who is trying to obtain a license for animals they owned prior to April 2007 will succeed in their license application?
> What would be considered reasonable documentary evidence of origin?
> Does the “two references, preferably with similar licenses, to demonstrate your abilities” request apply to private pet keepers?
> ...


Any response you get, please share it with the rest of us. The more of us who ask because we're worried about our own collections - or our friends - the bigger they'll see the problem is.


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

With my reasons for writing being working in a shop and helping customers get to grips with it, I've managed to include quite a lot of those questions in one way or another...
I'll post up a reply when I get one...


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## markhill (Sep 22, 2006)

so where do we get a list of affected species? 
strangly the only link in the whole post that goes anywhere is the one to your own site!!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

markhill said:


> so where do we get a list of affected species?
> strangly the only link in the whole post that goes anywhere is the one to your own site!!


Most of the vertebrate list is actually on the PKL - and the document was originally formatted for a website release rather than a forum release. Rory just beat me to posting and posted the website release version.

You can find a complete listing, including invertebrates and molluscs, here:

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/co...gement-licensing/docs/List-of-AnnexIV-EPS.pdf


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## markhill (Sep 22, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> Most of the vertebrate list is actually on the PKL - and the document was originally formatted for a website release rather than a forum release. Rory just beat me to posting and posted the website release version.
> 
> You can find a complete listing, including invertebrates and molluscs, here:
> 
> http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/co...gement-licensing/docs/List-of-AnnexIV-EPS.pdf


thanks


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## kimmerz (May 7, 2007)

I'm really scared and confused now, I have 2 unregistered torts and 3 with certificates, I rang DEFRA the other week to try and register the torts and she said that when I want to breed get a gift note off my breeder and they may be able to register them but they may just need to be kept as pets, do I need to ring DEFRA again and ask them what to do?


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## MissHayho (Mar 17, 2007)

kimmerz said:


> I'm really scared and confused now, I have 2 unregistered torts and 3 with certificates, I rang DEFRA the other week to try and register the torts and she said that when I want to breed get a gift note off my breeder and they may be able to register them but they may just need to be kept as pets, do I need to ring DEFRA again and ask them what to do?


 
I think you probably should - i need to phone them oo i think - i really dint understand this now  i have one tort which is defo cb as it says on the cert but my other 2 i have doubts about  this is so confusing!!!!


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## kimmerz (May 7, 2007)

I don't get it look on this website because it has a list of EPS and torts aint in the list and it sounds like this law came into place more than a week ago and I was on the phone to DEFRA just a week ago cos I had to sort out regestering my tort that passed away and they said nothing about having to licence them cos they told me not to bother putting the ones that I do have certificates for in my name untill I want to breed and the other two which were gifts from my breeder they said I may never be able to licence them and just have them as pets! anyway heres the website, you've probs been on it many times but I can't see torts in this list, its all bats and stuff. 
http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-countryside/vertebrates/EPS.htm#howtoapply


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

It is NOT DEFRA that will be enforcing it, it is Natural England that enforces it. 

Yes, there are tortoises on the list. And the EPS regulations just launched the licensing on the 21st of August.


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## peaches (Apr 3, 2007)

OK I'm getting lost.:lol2:

who EXACTLY do we apply too? 

I have Hermans torts that are on the EPS obviously, mine are UK CB, I know the breeder personally, no I didn't keep a reciept at the time because I have the cites paperwork which is all that was needed then.

Am I still to apply for a EPS licence? How? because I couldn't see one 

(I don't watch a great deal of telly or read newspaper but is this been advertised in the media? )


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

Peaches - the ONLY place I have personally seen it even mentioned is on this forum - nothing in the media, TV or anywhere else...


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*The Biggest Problem.......*

.......is that as Ally has correctly pointed out. No body outside those immediately affected [and not all those] or Natural England and DEFRA know anything of this legislation.

We have two flyers, Nerys and l printed off thirty of the non profane one which were at the Basildon show yesterday, keepers sellng Euro species were not aware, retailers whom also sell Euro species were not and continue to not be informed of its presence.

Additionally we printed off some literature for presentation purpose, and those whom viewed were either outraged or shocked.

We have a a piece of legislation, that is basically not known about. It has not been presented to the media in any format, so we as keepers must battle this if we wish to see animals not slaughtered.

Okay, so perhaps it may not be an easy piece to enforce and police............yet.

This does not mean that they will never embark upon such a movement to ensure they have some political prosecution success it just means that many, many keepers will not be aware of the full impact of this until it is too late.

R


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## Onissarle (Mar 1, 2007)

peaches said:


> OK I'm getting lost.
> 
> who EXACTLY do we apply too?


Both DEFRA and Natural England have documentation and guides about how to apply but it seems that Natural England will be handling the actual licensing process so any questions about it should be directed to them. 



> I have Hermans torts that are on the EPS obviously, mine are UK CB, I know the breeder personally, no I didn't keep a reciept at the time because I have the cites paperwork which is all that was needed then.
> Am I still to apply for a EPS licence? How? because I couldn't see one


If you can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt that your animal was captive bred in the UK, you do not need a license. However, if anyone ever questioned it, the burden of proof would be on you to prove that they were captive bred. If you can't prove otherwise, they will assume they were illegally wild caught.
I'd reccomend getting a signed statement from the breeder stating that they bred the animals in captivity and then passed ownership to you via sale or gift, etc. That along with your CITIES paperwork should be sufficient. Out of curiousity, does the CITIES paperwork state that the animal is captive bred? I've never actually seen any.
The problem for most keepers is that they can't _prove_ that their animals were captive bred or legally caught.



> (I don't watch a great deal of telly or read newspaper but is this been advertised in the media? )


There has been no media coverage at all as far as I can tell. It has been slipped through quietly out of the public eye. Most people won't even know the legislation exists until the RSPCA or a relevant authority is threatening to prosecute them or demanding they hand over their animals. It's one of the big issues the Pro Keepers Lobby is trying to address.


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## peaches (Apr 3, 2007)

Ah thanks guys,: victory: I'm not surprised that it came to many at the show as a surprise, if there is no press realease about this that how is Joe Public supposed to know - Oh I forgot we not!!




Onissarle said:


> Out of curiousity, does the CITIES paperwork state that the animal is captive bred? I've never actually seen any.
> The problem for most keepers is that they can't _prove_ that their animals were captive bred or legally caught.


Just got the certificates out, on section 4, it has the desciption with the parents certificate numbers and on section 19, box 3 is checked which states - are captive born and bred or articficially propogated specimens.


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## pam b (Mar 3, 2005)

Hamster!!!!!! :crazy:


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## Onissarle (Mar 1, 2007)

> Ah thanks guys, I'm not surprised that it came to many at the show as a surprise, if there is no press realease about this that how is Joe Public supposed to know - Oh I forgot we not!!


Exactly. If people knew, they might object. Slipping it through quietly then picking off people one by one is in their best interest and in the best interest of the antis. 



> Just got the certificates out, on section 4, it has the desciption with the parents certificate numbers and on section 19, box 3 is checked which states - are captive born and bred or articficially propogated specimens.


Would you consider letting me have a copy of that? With all the reference numbers and personal details blacked out, and watermarked as a copy or something along those lines, of course. It'd help me no end if I could have a reference to talk people through when they're asking for advice.


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## peaches (Apr 3, 2007)

Onissarle said:


> Would you consider letting me have a copy of that? With all the reference numbers and personal details blacked out, and watermarked as a copy or something along those lines, of course. It'd help me no end if I could have a reference to talk people through when they're asking for advice.


yup no problem, if you can pm me your email addy, I'll send it to you. : victory:


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

_If you can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt that your animal was captive bred in the UK, you do not need a license. However, if anyone ever questioned it, the burden of proof would be on you to prove that they were captive bred. If you can't prove otherwise, they will assume they were illegally wild caught._

Just nitpicking, and assuming I understand you correctly, but you don't have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, or even beyond all reasonable doubt, that your specimens were legally obtained; you just have to prove on balance of probabilities that they were legally obtained. This means that you have to prove it was more likely than not (i.e. more than 50% probability)


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Granted, Matt... though it hasn't been tested in a court yet, has it?

And the problem with MOST of it is that, because the species weren't regulated before, many of us don't have ANY proof, let alone "balance of probabilities" proof.


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Granted, Matt... though it hasn't been tested in a court yet, has it?
> 
> And the problem with MOST of it is that, because the species weren't regulated before, many of us don't have ANY proof, let alone "balance of probabilities" proof.


Good point - I don't keep receipts for anything.


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## Onissarle (Mar 1, 2007)

Matt Harris said:


> Just nitpicking, and assuming I understand you correctly, but you don't have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, or even beyond all reasonable doubt, that your specimens were legally obtained; you just have to prove on balance of probabilities that they were legally obtained. This means that you have to prove it was more likely than not (i.e. more than 50% probability)


You make a fair point and are indeed correct by legal definition but I'd like to see anybody do a probability analysis on the available 'proof'. All of the documentation I've been able to get my hands on requires _documentary evidence_ of origin in order to obtain a license. To avoid licensing, you have to be able to prove origin, assuming 'my word' isn't considered proof, I'd still need documentary evidence. This evidence does not and has never existed in the majority of cases. Therefore, I can't prove anything and whichever wordplay you want to use to dress it up with, the result is the same.

As Ssthisto said, this law hasn't been tested in court yet. That means we have no idea how much proof is required in practice to prove 'on the blalnce of probabilities'. Better safe than sorry, you can either prove it or you can't.


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## LeeH (Jan 26, 2005)

i have been reading through all your posts with intrest but not being the type of person that can piece together sentences without missing the point completely...

why is it nescessary for millions of healthy animals that are provided with the things they need like food,shelter,water to drink and being bred be subjected to be euthanised and put in display in a museum or other establishment if they are perfectly healthy and thriving in someones home...is the best thing for conservation and habitat of these animals really made better by destroying healthy animals some threatened as it is all for a licensing scheme that is so full of faults its unbelievable

* having an animal since 1994..thats 13 years..is that not past some animals average lifespan anyway and the want for younger animals to tame and get used to the owners it is really sad that those who are breeding the speices efforts are basically screwed especially if its took years to perfect.

*having to prove their origins..how can you if there is no certificate or paperwork has ever been given on most of those except in tortoise speices i think and because you can't prove it to get the certificates you are basically helpless and if you do have a failed application they have your details to take away your animals so its really a no win situation

i have tried to read and get a good understanding of this situation and i think its really sad and immoral for them to do such a thing in the name of conservation...healthy animals euthanised in their millions


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## peaches (Apr 3, 2007)

Can anyone show me a link or information which states that the animal will be destroyed if you are found to have an EPS listed species? Or how you will be prosecuted?

Just curious : victory:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Peaches:

They do not state explicitly that they will destroy your animals, but they would not tell me what WOULD be done with them - and believe me, I did ask them what would happen to the animals that they confiscate.

However... they did give guidance to me when I wrote that if you do not choose to apply for a license, you can donate your "specimens" to a museum; if they confiscate your animals and prosecute you, they can hardly rehome them with someone who doesn't have a license to keep them (and are there five million licensed homes available out there?).

They do not state much about the prosecutions either, except in a general way on the Natural England page about the European Protected Species regulations.


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## peaches (Apr 3, 2007)

Thankyou for that Ssthisto, just trying to find out as much as I can about this.

Isn't the onus on them to actually 'prove' their wc in Europe, what about innocent until proven (beyond doubt) guilty???


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

No, it isn't on them to prove they are illegal - it is on you to prove legality.

Apparently, this sort of "guilty until proven innocent" situation has been held up in court previously with regards to wildlife regulations.


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