# pets at home



## lobley (Jan 26, 2008)

went into pets at home for about 8 small fish for my daughters tank in her bedroom , the tank is 60 ltr and been set up for over 3 weeks

a woman was been served before us and god talk about 3rd degree
she was after 5 little nion fish 99p each

how long have you kept fish
3 months she answered
how bigs your tank
how many ltrs
every type of fish in there had to be listed
name
address

30 min later he served me and wife 

can i have 5 neons and a few mixed 

no you can only have a couple at a time then more in a months time

then he went though every fish that we can keep together 

by that time i walked off and left her

30 mins later , i said look i just came in for a few fish 

so can i have 5 neons one plek about 30 mm and two other small ones

he said no you can have a couple 

that was it ,i losted it told him were to stick is fish and stormed out

i mean over 1 hrs to buy 99p fish , how hard could that be


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## russm (Aug 28, 2009)

The staff there know NOTHING, they have all been tought this new s:censor:t that they have to ask. The last time I was in and asking a question they guy tried to give me his chat and I just told him that I had forgotten more than he knows so just to shut his mouth.


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## lobley (Jan 26, 2008)

talk about preaching about how to keep them when 4 off the tanks had a dead one in the bottom


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## white (May 16, 2009)

to be honest they were just being responsible and making sure your husbandary is correct.i wish more petshops would do this


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## russm (Aug 28, 2009)

No real surpirse there either. They run the tanks on a central filter system so if one get a disease they all get it. Needs to be very well maintained to work properly.


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## russm (Aug 28, 2009)

white said:


> to be honest they were just being responsible and making sure your husbandary is correct.i wish more petshops would do this


This is true but they do it in such a condesending way as if they know everything and they really dont.


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## lobley (Jan 26, 2008)

russm said:


> This is true but they do it in such a condesending way as if they know everything and they really dont.


 
i agree i no they are checking everything is ok 

i was in primary school last time someone talked to me like that 

never go there again , his wages must of been more than what he sells in a hour


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## lobley (Jan 26, 2008)

whats with name address and telephone number

are they going to send the 99p fish police round:lol2:


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

To some extent you can forgive the staff members though. After all, they applied for a job, got hired and stuck on a days training lesson about fish. What they are asking is only what they have been told to ask, and probably dont know any different. I know someone who works in a [email protected] and keeps fish himself. He completely disagrees with some of what they have to ask and some of the store policies. Problem is, he's been overheard giving people advice that is not taught by the [email protected] training team, and received a warning over it. I know that their staff are not allowed to give personal advice if it does not represent the store policy. 

However, some of what they ask is responsible. Tank size, maturity of the tank, tank inhabitants etc 

As for dead fish in tanks. I bet every single lfs has dead fish in their tanks at some point. We have 4 lfs within 15 minutes drive and all have had dead fish. It happens when your dealing in hundreds, sometimes thousands, of fish. As for [email protected] having centralised filter systems, they all dont. Our local one doesn't.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

lobley said:


> went into pets at home for about 8 small fish for my daughters tank in her bedroom , the tank is 60 ltr and been set up for over 3 weeks
> 
> a woman was been served before us and god talk about 3rd degree
> she was after 5 little nion fish 99p each
> ...


 I think they acted correctly with the benefit of the fish in mind. 3 weeks set up? So are you doing water checks to be sure it's cycled? And with a small tank like that, why are you considering a plec which will grow far too big?
I guess the fish at pets at home had a lucky escape from somene who wouldn't be told and didn't give a stuff whether their tank had cycled and whether one of them would grow far too big.


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> I think they acted correctly with the benefit of the fish in mind. 3 weeks set up? So are you doing water checks to be sure it's cycled? And with a small tank like that, why are you considering a plec which will grow far too big?


Never noticed that bit Unless it was a Bulldog plec or something, a plec isn't really suitable. 

I know you said that its been setup for 3 weeks, but has the filter been cycled? I only ask as it will save you buying fish which then die as a result of putting them in an uncycled tank. Neons are especially sensitive and Plecs require a tank with a bit more maturity.


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## Dave_D (Apr 4, 2007)

Im with the shop on this 1 personally...I think its great practice to ask them questions

Reason why they didnt want to sell you so many at a time is due to the fact, each time you add fish your NO2, NO3, and ammonia tend to climb, so the filter and other bacteria need to regrow. Adding too many fish can cause these to go off the charts and kill all the fish!

What do you want: Add a few fish over time and let everything sort itself out, or atleast help it with chemicals, water changes etc....or go out, buy loads of fish, add them to the tank, 3 days later their all dead!

Also, you mentioned a plec, if its a "common plec" then happily you left it! They can grow to a good couple of feet in length and easily outgrow your tank, you need a minimum of an 80 gallon upwards for them, but this is my oppinion....the bigger the better with these beasts! The biggest problem with the plec is they are high maintenence as all the do is poo galore!!! Ours never seems to stop, and every 2 days im clearing out loads of the stuff!!!

The best rule of thumb ive heard is add about 4 or 5 fish max at a time, then add more like that per month, maybe less fish if the ones your after are large.

I think its about time the fish shops started acting more responsible! Too many of them act like they dont care and just sell anything for the money.

lastly, have you done the chemical checks to check that the tank is cycled? Reason being is you need to make sure that the Nitrate, Nitrite, and Ammonia is at a good level.

Nitrate: in excess amounts can cause gill damage
Nitrite: Too much can cause nerve damage
Ammonia: In any form can cause death

You need to make sure that ammonia and NO2 are non existant, preferably no NO3, but it is said that a small amount isnt bad, but the lower it is the better


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

i agree with [email protected] ethics, not neccessarily how they handle this though.

When ive got some kid who cant tell me the difference between a bristlenose and a plec telling me i need to check this and that, its a bit sad.

I've got local [email protected], and i agree, cant help SOME dead fish, but my one is awful, tanks half dead, not just a couple of fish i am talking half tanks.

Its good they are trying to do this, but a days training on fish keeping isn't the basis for running a shop like that.

I feel they should perhaps train one of their shops better members of staff that they feel they can invest in, 1 per shop havng experience of one or more of the animal.

I heard them the other day telling a woman that the new fluval edge were suitable for fancy goldish OR as tropical, shoals of gourami and neons...they obv. took notes in the training day!


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## Dave_D (Apr 4, 2007)

Their training isnt the greatest, but atleast they are starting!

THe shop we have in our area is actually quite good, very rarely are their dead fish, but they do go round their tanks regularly and remove the dead fish...Having dead fish in the tanks is an unfortunate thing, they die from stress mainly through the transportation

They have recently opened up a reptile bit in our local 1, and I dont like it at all...The UV is far too high that they tend to be over a foot away from it, the heat lamp is too far away too, and there is normally quite a few beardies all put together, and to top it off their prices are way too high!!!

We are talking £80 for a baby beardie, and £100 for a sub-adult...And all are kept on calci-sand!!!

But still, the fish area is good...The bloke in our place asked me quite a few questions which did impress me, as normally they used to just be like "What you after"?...."There ya go, bye"


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

Like i said, i would encourage them to do it, the ethics is correct, but thing is, when they are telling someone a 25litre or whatever the baby fluval edge holds is suitable for shoals of gourami and such, thats idiotic. I told the woman not to bother and fair play she listened to me.

Saying that, ive heard plenty of "proper fish shops" say stupid things too.

but yeah, i can understand the OPs frustration with it. The lil teeny boppers talking to you as if your the thickest thing on the planet b/c they work AT a pet shop and did a 1 day course, it gets really annoying really quickly.


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## DaveM (Oct 18, 2006)

white said:


> to be honest they were just being responsible and making sure your husbandary is correct.i wish more petshops would do this




Aquatics workers aren't meant to be tank police, all that we should have to sak imo, is if the tank is mature and the correct size, and try and guide the customer to a correct choice if we think they need it, as soon as money changes hands, they are the customers responsibility, and my experience of pets at home is that they give incorrect info anyway, more than likely to up sales, but in the end, it is up to the customer, and admit that the gestapo style grilling of tank parameters is over the top


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## tomb87 (Nov 10, 2009)

i work there and all staff have to do oata training so how can they be untrained


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

first off whats aota training?

Secondly, how is advising someone to put gourami in a tiny fluval edge along with other neons and the like trained?


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## agreendream (Dec 8, 2009)

There are so many *young knowledgeable* people on this forum alone eager to work with animals and still places like that simply employ robots.
I totally agree with everything he asked you but he should not have needed to. Had he any actually experience he would use that to gauge a costumers knowledge and suitability. 
He would know if you had no clue and could have dealt appropriately, I personally dont think a living thing we price at 99p or £99 should be treated with any less care, it didnt choose to be in the pet trade.

I dont like Pets at Home.


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## DaveM (Oct 18, 2006)

Frase said:


> first off whats aota training?
> 
> Secondly, how is advising someone to put gourami in a tiny fluval edge along with other neons and the like trained?



Aquatic Ornamental Trade Association, meant to be a bench mark for knowledge, sort of thing, though a couple of things in there packs are a little questionable =]


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## lee19831 (Jan 16, 2010)

I think it's good that the staff ask some questions but they can be ott , i only wished my local pets at home looked after there animals as well as they want there customers too there fish and reptiles seem fine but there birds are in a terrible state


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

thanks for that dave and yeah lee, i think thats the other thing that winds people up. You are interrogated as to your keeping conditions however some of the animals IN the shopa re kept worse then some customers would ever imagine to keep them,


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## Paul_MTS (Mar 23, 2008)

I'm fish house manager of my LFS with a [email protected] nearby and we do get a lot of customers coming to us with terrible advice.

I had 1 customer the other day that had problems with his tank, he had had his water tested at [email protected] but they had only tested the PH to which they said was a bit high but it's our tap water PH anyways! Thankfully they didn't suggest any PH adjusters, he came to me in the end after further problems and a quick proper test showed ammonia issues.

We had another lady with a new tank and was told to use ammo lock in the tank before adding fish, then was allowed to stock the tank after 4 days, of course she came to us a few days later with very high ammonia and nitrite.

Our local [email protected] is terrible with fish and reptiles are poor aswell. Although slightly over the top i think your [email protected] did an alright job really.


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

DaveM said:


> Aquatics workers aren't meant to be tank police, all that we should have to sak imo, is if the tank is mature and the correct size, and try and guide the customer to a correct choice if we think they need it, as soon as money changes hands, they are the customers responsibility, and my experience of pets at home is that they give incorrect info anyway, more than likely to up sales, but in the end, it is up to the customer, and admit that the gestapo style grilling of tank parameters is over the top


Its not about being Tank Police, its about ensuring the customer isn't about to overstock their tank, put a fish in that will swiftly consume the fish already in there, put a common Plec in a 10g tank, or put fish in an uncycled tank. TBH, I've heard more rubbish from staff at a designated fish/rep shop locally, well two shops actually.

[email protected] refusing to sell someone 5 fish is hardly likely to "up sales"! If they had said "yep you can have all those fish", then that would be upping sales.

The other thing to bear in mind is that the staff have no idea what level of experience you have with keeping fish. The last time i bought a fish from [email protected] it took about 5 mins, because they know that I know what I'm doing.

The worse case of fish neglect i've seen was at a family run independent lfs. On a wednesday they received their new stock which included 5 male siamese fighters. I know because I was in there. On Saturday we went back and found one male being torn to shreds by approx 50 xray tetras; one male just alive but with no colour, no fins and lead on the bottom of the tank; and one male very very dead in a tank full of male guppies. There was one male which looked ok, and no sign of the fifth one. We pointed out these issues to the staff/owner. She said she would move the one in with the xrays, but its difficult to know where to put him. Now this shop looks nice, clean, modern etc etc....and the owners have been keeping fish for many years, including breeding many fish. Now as far as I'm concerned this is a whole lot worse than [email protected] refusing to sell fish! 

Its very easy to have a go at [email protected] because they are a nationwide company, but in all honesty many independent lfs are far worse.


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## DaveM (Oct 18, 2006)

andy007 said:


> Its not about being Tank Police, its about ensuring the customer isn't about to overstock their tank, put a fish in that will swiftly consume the fish already in there, put a common Plec in a 10g tank, or put fish in an uncycled tank. TBH, I've heard more rubbish from staff at a designated fish/rep shop locally, well two shops actually.
> 
> [email protected] refusing to sell someone 5 fish is hardly likely to "up sales"! If they had said "yep you can have all those fish", then that would be upping sales.
> 
> ...



Yes, but all that can be discerned with a few uestions, not the griling they got, if they had been using bactinetts or cycle, after 3 weeks of setting up it is personally reasonable to add a few fish in, as long as there are no spikes, to refuse that is a bit odd imo, and probably lack of experience on the assistants part, and btw, the part about upping sales wasn't in reference to that, and I agree shop tanks should be there to provide a basis on compatibility, and I can understand the op's frustration, and the amount of times I've heard "They wont sell them us, it's ok, we'll got to Pets at Home, instead" beggars beleif


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

The questions they ask are all set out on a small form and are no more than any fish shop should ask. 
Tank size
Maturity
Filtered
Planted
Current fish stock
Water parameters

All of these questions, are questions the customer should ask themselves before even stepping foot in a fish shop. Is my tank big enough, has it been set up long enough, is my filter capable of accepting new fish, do i have enough plant cover which helps establish territories and hiding places, will the new fish be accepted by my current fish, and are my water parameters correct.

The funny thing is, if the OP had posted that they went to [email protected] and was sold 5 Neons, 1 Plec and 2 others? for their newly setup 60L tank, people would have still been having a go at [email protected]


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

heya andy.

Hope we gots biscuts the weekend! lol.

I agree its funny because we moan they stopped a sale and then moan they give a certain sale normally.

But in both occasions they do seem to be wrong. I guess it AINT the kids faults either its the managerial staff who choose the level of training.

and i agree with other chaps statement, so many kids here wanting to work with animals and such, isnt it weird.

Do you think they are perhaps put off by [email protected] geneal rep? I dunno. I still think they should have at LEAST ONE full trained employee who can detail this and that on a standard basis at least.


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

Hiya
I expect we could run to biscuits, but only plain ones lol

One of the problems with [email protected] policy is that its set by Head Office and not locally at the store. Head Office then inform store managers of these policies who implement them. As with the person i know that works there, [email protected] head office will not allow its staff it deviate from those policies. Our friend has been warned by the manager about this. Our friend has tried to explain to the manager that some of the policies, especially about cycling, are not really correct. They just get told to basically be quiet and do the job. So our friend is left in an awkward position? Having to adhere to store policy or get the sack? In this economic climate they would rather be employed.


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

haha biscuts on meeeeee then! Once i finished at Bluereef that is !

But yeah i agree and i think i ahd commented on that, its the [email protected] managerial staff that should have this addressed, just ashame they arent prepared to do anything about it as and when someone does speak up. =/


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## jenky (Sep 22, 2008)

i havent read the whole thread sorry,

my sister inlaw works there, she isnt on the fish part most of the time but is from time to time. she calls me when ever they have a question they carnt answer .
like the other day she called because she was asked about stingrays and knows im a fanatic lol.


its VERY hit and miss with the staff, some know what there on about and some dont (they think they do). i went in the other week as i was passing and wanted a few cheap feeder fish, they wouldent surve me lol. its life get over it, the fish i had at the time was WC and wouldent eat deads at the time so dont start with all the you shouldent feed live fish banter please.

while waiting to be surved a lady asked about white spot in her tank and the young lad told her, and i quote! "white spot is fine it will go away by its self, its in everyones tank".

another, 
sis inlaw called, a guy had bought some whitespot treatment and on the bottle it stated DO NOT USE WITH ELEPHANT FISH, he asked and they person said it will be fine just make sure not to overdose. he went home treated the tank and melted the skin off his elephant fish. the member of staff was delt with and they had to replace the fish.

some training! its ok getting the training, its the idiots who dont learn and pass on bad advice.


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## karlb123 (Jul 20, 2009)

*not about upping sales!*



DaveM said:


> Aquatics workers aren't meant to be tank police, all that we should have to sak imo, is if the tank is mature and the correct size, and try and guide the customer to a correct choice if we think they need it, as soon as money changes hands, they are the customers responsibility, and my experience of pets at home is that they give incorrect info anyway, more than likely to up sales, but in the end, it is up to the customer, and admit that the gestapo style grilling of tank parameters is over the top


Upping the sales of fish...doesnt matter. Pets at home dont make profit on their fish sales I know 100% fact my local pets at home doesnt, they sell at what they buy them at.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

jenky said:


> i, a guy had bought some whitespot treatment and on the bottle it stated DO NOT USE WITH ELEPHANT FISH, he asked and they person said it will be fine just make sure not to overdose. he went home treated the tank and melted the skin off his elephant fish. the member of staff was delt with and they had to replace the fish.
> 
> some training! its ok getting the training, its the idiots who dont learn and pass on bad advice.



Let me see if I understand this. A guy buys a bottle which states clearly on the bottle DO NOT USE WITH ELEPHANT FISH. So he goes and asks the assistant if he can use it with elephant fish?
Both the assistant and the owner are the idiots then I'd say wouldn't you?


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

karlb123 said:


> Upping the sales of fish...doesnt matter. Pets at home dont make profit on their fish sales I know 100% fact my local pets at home doesnt, they sell at what they buy them at.


 
sorry could you show me this factual proof you have?

I would imagine thats a bit of billy bull*** your talking there, why would they continue to buy a fish, sell it at bought price, and take a loss on the costs of keeping the fish til its sold?

and Fenwoman...i lolled :lol2:


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## jenky (Sep 22, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Let me see if I understand this. A guy buys a bottle which states clearly on the bottle DO NOT USE WITH ELEPHANT FISH. So he goes and asks the assistant if he can use it with elephant fish?
> Both the assistant and the owner are the idiots then I'd say wouldn't you?


yes agree 100%, the person had bought the bottle and read it on the way to the car. he came back wanting to swap it and was told it would be fine. "the warning was to be extra careful not to over dose".

the problem is JO public thinks the staff know what there on about and trust what they say, all be it blindly!

not all the staff are like this, i know a few at the store in question very well and they do know what there on about. its the small minority who dont. 

no one puts up posts saying how good a member of staff was, they only post the bad times. so everything you read its bad so you think there all bad.


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

jenky, the problem isnt really jo public, i would assume it as MY responsibility to inform a customer that i am not in the best position to advise on a particular area i am not fully aware of and either find further assistance in store or just say perhaps its worth milling over, or if they were cool enough customer and a decent enough subject, I'd offer to do a bit of research for them anyways...thats just me though, i did the same when i worked in a fishing tackle shop, i researched certain lakes/methods/fish habits for some people, for others i just passed them to someone more experienced or advised i have no idea and to check it out themselves.


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## diamondlil (May 7, 2008)

Frase said:


> sorry could you show me this factual proof you have?
> 
> I would imagine thats a bit of billy bull*** your talking there, why would they continue to buy a fish, sell it at bought price, and take a loss on the costs of keeping the fish til its sold?
> 
> and Fenwoman...i lolled :lol2:


I'd think this is general to most pet shops. Their profits are from selling the tanks/cages/feed/toys etc, offsetting the costs of the live sales. The animals on display and for sale bring in the customers, who may well impulse buy a hamster and then spend £50 or so on the cage.


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

i bet pound to a pinch of sh*t they dont sell fish alone at a loss. I'd love to see books, fish can be bought fairly cheap on the large scale a fish shop would, i would imainge [email protected] have set suppliers for their chains and such.


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

lobley said:


> talk about preaching about how to keep them when 4 off the tanks had a dead one in the bottom


'A dead one' is nothing...It indicates nothing.You would be surprised how many dead fish 'good shops' fish out.I'm sure if you just answered his q's, or simply said you have researched...Which wouldn't have taken a second, you would have got your fish.


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

One of the new guys i work with went to [email protected] the other day and asked for a fish tank and fish. They sold him a small tank, no filter, no heater, 5 zebra danio (which they told him were a leopard barb??) and a hamster in a cage. He openly admitted he had no knowledge of fishkeeping but they saw the proverbial pound signs and sold it all to him. 

A short story, short... by the next day two 'barb' were dead (the rest followed shortly) and the guy came to me for help, he showed me a photo of what the sold him and i went mad!

In one shop there is no morals at all, and at others you virtually need a CRB check and zoology degree to buy stock! a happy medium would be nice...

And while we are on the subject... how can [email protected] get away with still stocking baby 'big' fish without warning of adult size? I went into the Bangor branch a good two year ago (might of changed since) and they had 2" long Channa macropeltes for sale (amongst others). No warning or anything. i pretended i wanted some and the guy never once said anything to me about size as adults, just that they arnt community fish. pets at home is the tesco of the pet trade. Financially rape the customer and the environment cos 'Every little helps'...


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## diamondlil (May 7, 2008)

Frase said:


> i bet pound to a pinch of sh*t they dont sell fish alone at a loss. I'd love to see books, fish can be bought fairly cheap on the large scale a fish shop would, i would imainge [email protected] have set suppliers for their chains and such.


Ok, offset the costs of buying fish in bulk from suppliers against the costs of installing and maintaining the tanks, the cost per sqare metre of taking up selling space, loss of dying or ill stock. Those fish are the 'ooooooh' factor. While a customer is looking at them they may decide they need a scuba diver bubble thingy for their tank that sells for £4.99 but costs them 50p to stock, and some new plants, and a scraper............ending up at the checkout with a basket of stuff that makes the store a nice profit!


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

On the subject of buying them in and selling for no profit. its a load of sh*t for sure. I get White cloud minnows in at 18p a fish from trade... Neons at 32p... your average small tetra etc for way under 50p...

No way do they make no profit. even taking into account feed and water and eleccy, there is LOADS of profit margin


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## diamondlil (May 7, 2008)

HalcyonInverts said:


> On the subject of buying them in and selling for no profit. its a load of sh*t for sure. I get White cloud minnows in at 18p a fish from trade... Neons at 32p... your average small tetra etc for way under 50p...
> 
> No way do they make no profit. even taking into account feed and water and eleccy, there is LOADS of profit margin


Cool beans! That's the sort of info only someone in the trade would know!


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

diamondlil said:


> Cool beans! That's the sort of info only someone in the trade would know!


Public Aquarium so not quite a pet shop operator but i still buy from the same places. They definitly make profit! best example is i went into a [email protected] out of interest (dont go there for my home or work stuff) and they were selling Danio margaritatus for 4.99 a fish... i bought mine for work at 1.19 a fish trade... erm profit?


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

lol at least someone backing the corner : victory:

newho this has been interesting topic to follow guys and thanks for the chats. home time now though, gotta go buy the nipper some more nappies before i can relax and watch villa cruise to the final 

Matt


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Another [email protected] thread? Really? Honestly? We haven't had enough yet? :hmm:


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## Animalmadness (Dec 8, 2009)

I think that customers should research fish before they buy them, however i also believe that pet shop assisstants should helpthem make the right decisions.


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

Crownan said:


> Another [email protected] thread? Really? Honestly? We haven't had enough yet? :hmm:


0o..they are the scourge of fish forums lmao


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## tomb87 (Nov 10, 2009)

jenky said:


> i havent read the whole thread sorry,
> 
> my sister inlaw works there, she isnt on the fish part most of the time but is from time to time. she calls me when ever they have a question they carnt answer .
> like the other day she called because she was asked about stingrays and knows im a fanatic lol.
> ...


This is a lie because every person selling fish has done step 1 which teaches all treatments, etc. they would be sacked on the spot for saying that. If they hadnt done this then they are not allowed to sell fish. I work in a specialist aquatic centre pets at home and all staff tere do oata training. normal stores have at least 1 oata qualified person in every store.


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## tomb87 (Nov 10, 2009)

DaveM said:


> Yes, but all that can be discerned with a few uestions, not the griling they got, if they had been using bactinetts or cycle, after 3 weeks of setting up it is personally reasonable to add a few fish in, as long as there are no spikes, to refuse that is a bit odd imo, and probably lack of experience on the assistants part, and btw, the part about upping sales wasn't in reference to that, and I agree shop tanks should be there to provide a basis on compatibility, and I can understand the op's frustration, and the amount of times I've heard "They wont sell them us, it's ok, we'll got to Pets at Home, instead" beggars beleif


 and it is 7 days you need to have up and running for b4 we will sell fish to you. dont know where you get 3 weeks from. Also if you look in the leaflet that comes with filters it advises you to run them for 7 days without introducing fish, it is for there welfare.


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## tomb87 (Nov 10, 2009)

HalcyonInverts said:


> Public Aquarium so not quite a pet shop operator but i still buy from the same places. They definitly make profit! best example is i went into a [email protected] out of interest (dont go there for my home or work stuff) and they were selling Danio margaritatus for 4.99 a fish... i bought mine for work at 1.19 a fish trade... erm profit?


 danio margaritatus are £1.25 each or 5fora5er at warrington pets at home so your trade prices are scandalous really, lol


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## tomb87 (Nov 10, 2009)

lobley said:


> went into pets at home for about 8 small fish for my daughters tank in her bedroom , the tank is 60 ltr and been set up for over 3 weeks
> 
> a woman was been served before us and god talk about 3rd degree
> she was after 5 little nion fish 99p each
> ...


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## mustang100893 (Nov 16, 2009)

I haven't read the whole thread but from what you have started it out with i can't beleive you are moaning about the service when it's people like you that cause them to ask the questions in the first place, a 60 litre tank cannot hold much more than 5 neons and a few more fish like for an example rasboras, guppies etc, but a plec is just stupid they grow to over half the length of that tank and do NOT grow to the size of the tank, a plec will just grow and grow. I have been to two P @ H one local and one further away and both had eccelent service, they were the only place that the fish didn't have problems after i got the fish and a few deaths in tanks in the shop is to be expected, you'll find even the best shops have some that are diseased or dead , you should think before you open your mouth in future.


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## Paul_MTS (Mar 23, 2008)

why do some people post absolute nonsense when you don't have a clue on the subject!

live stock has a higher mark up than dry goods.... FACT!

live stock has more money put into it, but providing you don't make huge losses on the live stock dieing then they are most certainly profitable. The fish house I run is profitable, the boss would unleash hell on me if it wasn't!


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

tomb87 said:


> danio margaritatus are £1.25 each or 5fora5er at warrington pets at home so your trade prices are scandalous really, lol


 
Back in 2007 they wernt that cheap as they were only discovered 2006. So no, that was a fair comparison. they are easily bred and are now fairly common place so the current cheap prices reflect this. Fish prices fluctuate fast so any comparisons are purely for illustratory purposes only.


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## Cold blooded but prime (May 22, 2009)

I for one think its great that pets at home are more strict on selling fish now days, weather its a fish or a rabbit they both deserve to be kept by people who have the correct knowldge, but yea it would annoy you if you knew a hell of alot about fish and started getting questiond by people less qualified than you! But they dont know that. If you keep marine you dont get this problem, well you dont at mine cause they asume you know what your doing if your forking out this sort of money. Pets at home are right, when im in there people are countinusley buying fish on a whim, oh lets get some fish for the front room, but they dont know how to go about it, there are many factors with chemistry involved, what got me is that my pets at home are now doing reptiles in febuary cornsnakes, royals pythons, herman tortoises, bearded dragons and leopard geckos from what i was told by phone. My problem is that they are this strict and conncernd for their fish yet they havent employed anyone who is actually qualified in this section, me and many of my friends applied for this position to be told they plan on training there staff in the fish section to deal with the reptiles, as I know the knowldge that is needed to give proper advice on reptiles as it is with fish takes years of research and practical experience so logically you would think they would be as concernd as they are about the fish to employ someone with proper skill in this section.


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

tomb87 said:


> and it is 7 days you need to have up and running for b4 we will sell fish to you. dont know where you get 3 weeks from. Also if you look in the leaflet that comes with filters it advises you to run them for 7 days without introducing fish, it is for there welfare.


Thats still wrong though A filter running in an empty tank for 7 years, let alone 7 days, wont do anything! All its doing is circulating fresh water and using electricity for nothing! So whether a shop or person says to leave your filter running for 7, 14, 21 or 365 days its all rubbish, unless they also tell you to add a waste product like ammonia to get the cycle going. Even then its gonna take weeks.


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

Tomb,

I am not sure how to read your post? Are you saying the poster was exagerating as to what the woman was asked? or are you saying [email protected] are going OTT in their questions?

If its the first option, i'm afraid that isn't exageration, I've heard [email protected] and other fish shops asking everyone of these question's...

I was in a fish/rep shop last week in the midlands and listened to a wmoan looking to buy some fish...she was asked all the questions and when it got to list all your fish, they were asked sizes of them. I can understand them trying to help and such, and at least the rep/fish shop were asking in a nice way and not the way your sometimes approached by other assistants of other shops who make you want to stab them in the eye with a sharp pencil followed by pullng their face off.

Morning folks, nice to see we still having this interesting conversation


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## DaveM (Oct 18, 2006)

tomb87 said:


> and it is 7 days you need to have up and running for b4 we will sell fish to you. dont know where you get 3 weeks from. Also if you look in the leaflet that comes with filters it advises you to run them for 7 days without introducing fish, it is for there welfare.




I meant 2, hit the wromg button


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## MidnightStud (Dec 5, 2009)

> As for dead fish in tanks. I bet every single lfs has dead fish in their tanks at some point. We have 4 lfs within 15 minutes drive and all have had dead fish. It happens when your dealing in hundreds, sometimes thousands, of fish. As for [email protected] having centralised filter systems, they all dont. Our local one doesn't.


Good point. I have 5 local PAHs, none of which have central filters. And All shops that carry livestock will have deads - it happens. There are so many factors to be taken into account for dead fish, it is hard to make a negative comment about it when you dont know the reason behind them. I appreciate they dont appear 'good' but what if there is a genuine reason - power cut, new delivery (not all shops have separate quarentine) etc.



> I think they acted correctly with the benefit of the fish in mind. 3 weeks set up? So are you doing water checks to be sure it's cycled? And with a small tank like that, why are you considering a plec which will grow far too big?
> I guess the fish at pets at home had a lucky escape from somene who wouldn't be told and didn't give a stuff whether their tank had cycled and whether one of them would grow far too big.


Again, very good point. I would not have sold you a plec for a 60l tank or neons for an uncycled one.



> We are talking £80 for a baby beardie, and £100 for a sub-adult...And all are kept on calci-sand!!!


The Beardies are not on calci-sand in my local PAHs.



> and the amount of times I've heard "They wont sell them us, it's ok, we'll got to Pets at Home, instead" beggars beleif


Oddly I have heard the opposite in the local PAH store I do shop in.

The PAH I use has great staff. They know me quite well (and I know a few of the staff) and I dont get asked the questions anymore as they already know the answers! But I think it is great that they do ask customners about there tanks, as fish need to go into the correct environment.

I appreciate that this may come across 'nastily' but thats down to the customer service skills of the staff member. They way I have seen it done, is the questions just form a converstation between staff and customer, so they dont even realise they have been quizzed!! I have also seen it when customers have been nasty about giving out tank details and had a go at PAH staff, when the staff member has been completey polite. So this works both ways.

I also think you will get good shops and bad shops within the company so it is a little unfair to judge them all with the same tarred brush. I try to treat PAH shops all as indivual shops. And yes, our LFS have a lot to learn, one in particular is dreadful but I wont go into details.



> One of the new guys i work with went to [email protected] the other day and asked for a fish tank and fish. They sold him a small tank, no filter, no heater, 5 zebra danio (which they told him were a leopard barb??) and a hamster in a cage. He openly admitted he had no knowledge of fishkeeping but they saw the proverbial pound signs


This is breaking policy, a complaint should be made so appropraite action can be taken.

Do you guys ever make complaints? PAH customer services are excellent. Also if mistakes are not pointed out then how can they ever be improved on? Sometimes just ranting in store isnt the right behaviour as staff will just think you are a nasty customer and forget about you as soon as you walk out even if what you are saying was good advice. A proper complaint, or a calm talk to the manager is usually better.


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## tomb87 (Nov 10, 2009)

Cold blooded but prime said:


> I for one think its great that pets at home are more strict on selling fish now days, weather its a fish or a rabbit they both deserve to be kept by people who have the correct knowldge, but yea it would annoy you if you knew a hell of alot about fish and started getting questiond by people less qualified than you! But they dont know that. If you keep marine you dont get this problem, well you dont at mine cause they asume you know what your doing if your forking out this sort of money. Pets at home are right, when im in there people are countinusley buying fish on a whim, oh lets get some fish for the front room, but they dont know how to go about it, there are many factors with chemistry involved, what got me is that my pets at home are now doing reptiles in febuary cornsnakes, royals pythons, herman tortoises, bearded dragons and leopard geckos from what i was told by phone. My problem is that they are this strict and conncernd for their fish yet they havent employed anyone who is actually qualified in this section, me and many of my friends applied for this position to be told they plan on training there staff in the fish section to deal with the reptiles, as I know the knowldge that is needed to give proper advice on reptiles as it is with fish takes years of research and practical experience so logically you would think they would be as concernd as they are about the fish to employ someone with proper skill in this section.


 your a liar aswell, because the only reps any pets at home are getting in are leos and bearded dragons, not snakes due to the feeding vertebrates issue. so stop lying and the people are not less qualified as all do oata training so stop chatting [poo]


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## tomb87 (Nov 10, 2009)

Frase said:


> Tomb,
> 
> I am not sure how to read your post? Are you saying the poster was exagerating as to what the woman was asked? or are you saying [email protected] are going OTT in their questions?
> 
> ...


 i am saying the woman is exhagarating and i would no as i work there


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

I haven't looked at the OATA course, so have no idea whats involved. One observation I have made, and if its nothing to do with the course fine, is that it appears people get taught to advise people to leave their tank running for a week to cycle it? If this is whats taught, then the course is flawed. And if that bits flawed, how much more of it is?

Perhaps someone who has done the course can clarify


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

I've spoken to someone who knows more about that course, they feel that there are a few areas covered that are doubtful and questionable, but hey, what do i know ~


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## Cold blooded but prime (May 22, 2009)

_Someone is a bit touchey aint they? did you actually read what i put?_
_Regardless if its a beardie or a gecko or a snake, I think your staff will never be trained to the standard that is needed to provide a proper service to the public (especially if they communicate like you) if staff were more qued up to keeping reptiles we would have so many rehoming centres popping up all over the place._

_pets at home are now doing reptiles in febuary cornsnakes, royals pythons, herman tortoises, bearded dragons and leopard geckos FROM WHAT I WAS TOLD BY PHONE. _



tomb87 said:


> your a liar aswell, because the only reps any pets at home are getting in are leos and bearded dragons, not snakes due to the feeding vertebrates issue. so stop lying and the people are not less qualified as all do oata training so stop chatting shit


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## bob_pal_156 (Dec 2, 2009)

while i was at college (studying ornamental aquatics national diploma) i applied to work at my local [email protected] for a bit of extra cash but i was rejected and told it was because i was too qualified and would make there other staff look bad . . .


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

going from tomb here, i think my 19 month old nipper would make them look bad to be honest....i think tomb has just become [email protected] own worst enemy lol...i certainly wouldn't be trying to promote my companies professionalism by speaking like this, but nevermind eh? No showing some people.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

> went into pets at home for about 8 small fish for my daughters tank in her bedroom , the tank is 60 ltr and been set up for over 3 weeks
> 
> a woman was been served before us and god talk about 3rd degree
> she was after 5 little nion fish 99p each
> ...



very hard if the member of staff thinks that current tank/regime/fish are likely to result in the new fishes demise. 

No offence ment to the OP but the above reaction is extremely boring for anyone that works in an aquatics shop.
I've worked in aquatics for about three years and every now and then you get someone that will just not accept that you are asking questions so that you dont sell them something inappropriate... Some thing that is either going to die or destroy fish that they already have. because if the new fish died these customers are ALWAYS the first to start throwing their weight around even if it is entirely their fault. 

For some reason the odd person takes what it infact exemplary customer service and sales ethics in the same way as a spoilt child takes being told that they cannot have a mars bar. 
They get stroppy, threaten your job, insist they know far more than you and finally storm out of the shop throwing a very loud padywack because they couldnt get what they want.

I doubt that the [email protected] staff were being overly millitant. They were doing their job. YOU should be impressed with the fact that there are shops out there that aren't trying to empty your wallet as fast as possible. 
So a big pat on the back for the shop assistant in question, they did exactly the right thing. Well done.

Its a pity.. if these people bothered to do even an ounce of research before going into a shop for their 99p fish then they'd be able to volenteer answers before they are even asked: 

"I've got a 60ltr tank filtered by a fishmatic 500, cycled with ammonia for three weeks ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings are X, Y and Z and I'm after a trio of glow in the dark mollies".

Its a breath of fresh air when someone takes the time to be prepared. and it saves you "giving them the 3rd degree".
You wouldnt go into a reptile shop for a £40 snake, no idea what you are going to buy, if your viv is suitable etc and then expect to be sold it simply because you are waving two twenty pound notes in the staffs' face would you? No, you'd expect them to explain to you why you cant have it at the moment and what would be better for you. Or suddenly has animal welfare become optional? Why should fish be any different..? 
Does this mean I can now start milling puppies and selling them to the nearest chav with a stolen wallet and it's ok?
So basically, grow up, stop behaving like a spoilt brat and attempt to give a toss about the animals you are buying.


...oh wait...my bad... its only a fish. 

Kat


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

lol twig, i think you are right in your thinking, but could put that across a bit better. The problem is not that they explain why you shouldnt have the fish right now, its the fact they dont explain....because they dont know...but speak to you as if they do know.

They are told what to sya and they say it to keep jobs, not because they give a toss about a fish or because they understand why. I think if the staff said you cant have these right now...BECAUSE of the following, perhaps it would be a better case to have a slight dig at OP's comments. to just say have 4 now come back next week for another 4 without giving substantial reasoning is what has perhaps got on OP tits here.

Not trying to cause fights or anything here, but i feel that you are talking the same kind of way as tomb which is ashame because i think your quite right in what your saying but if i was OP id be inclined to ignore anything you said just because of how you put it across mate.

I think this is the same with many pet stores, not just fish but any pet, people dont like being told no...but they will be more tolerable if they are told no because x/y/z then they are when just told No you arent having it


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## davidlottr (Nov 14, 2009)

sorry i have to post on this one just for a star its got pets at home on it.

first thing i come from a fish keeing family, and the second thing is that not ALL people in pets at home are thick just most of them.

thing is with pets at home is that they get 5mins with some person whos most probs just says you keep fish in water, and read this, it will have all the things you need to ask to make yourself look good on it.

its not just fish they dont know about its all the animals from there i got hamster and 2 days later it was dead now there has been a few things like this from them and it has not just happend to me. there is someone on here i have met who works at pets at home and she knows about what they sell and is real nice any info you need, she will give you all the right info, not like this hamster/fish/what ever looks the same as what on this box so i should go in there, if you get what i mean.

as for the fish anyway like someone said you go in there and its aa big put off when you see about 3 dead fish in each tank, now i know fish can die real easy but they dont bother taking them out.

i went to get a gold fish (i like them more then others), it was just 1 gold fish under £1 and i was standing there for about 20mins telling the women about the in's and out's of my take, after givin her some info on fish that she did not know he shut up and sold it to me.

but the funny thing about it was that for an under a £1 fish took longer to but then a hamster that was like £8 now i would think that as its a hamster i would be grilled a bit more but i was in and out in like 5 mins.


at the end of the day i dotn buy from pets at home unless i know who works there and i know the animals are in top shape.

sorry to butt in but this place rely dose :censor: me off


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## tomb87 (Nov 10, 2009)

neep_neep said:


> I think his point is that not EVERY member of staff does the OATA course before they are allowed to sell fish.
> 
> In 'normal' stores, you just have to do your 'step 1' and you can sell fish. Unfortunately this means that the majority of [email protected] staff, company wide, have nothing resembling an OATA qualification (unlike those in the specialist aquatic centres - i.e. the minority).
> 
> ...


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## tomb87 (Nov 10, 2009)

lobley said:


> whats with name address and telephone number
> 
> are they going to send the 99p fish police round:lol2:


 its cos them books go to the supplier so your fish can be guaranteed, or would you rather go a shop where they just laugh if your fish die and dont replace them.


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

davidlottr said:


> as for the fish anyway like someone said you go in there and its aa big put off when you see about 3 dead fish in each tank, now i know fish can die real easy but they dont bother taking them out.


Crikes, If I walked out of every fish shop with a few dead fish in their tanks, my tanks would be empty LOL

I think people have to remember that just as every independent LFS is different, so to is every [email protected] I think saying that most of their staff are numpties or whatever is a little rude. Especially when you see some of the rubbish people come out with on here, and they purport to be experienced keepers of certain animals. The guy i know who works for [email protected] is very knowledgeable, and could probably teach a few people here a thing or two. I also know one of the girls who works at the local branch and she is very knowledgeable too.

Whenever I have bought fish from [email protected], its taken about 5 minutes to answer the questions management make them ask. Perhaps the people who say its taken 20, 30 minutes or longer have a problem with their setup? i.e. incompatible fish, tank too small for the fish wanted etc etc...

There's another fish store chain that we have locally, and its there I have been spoken too in a condescending way by an 18 yr old who has obviously read to many web articles. Under-gravel filteration for him was some strange system used in the dark ages, and apparently doesn't work??

Instead of permanently slagging all the staff off, have you tried contacting their head office to voice your concerns in a proffessional manner? I have had cause to contact them on behalf of a friend and i did get a reply and an explanation of what action will be taken.


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## tomb87 (Nov 10, 2009)

andy007 said:


> crikes, if i walked out of every fish shop with a few dead fish in their tanks, my tanks would be empty lol
> 
> i think people have to remember that just as every independent lfs is different, so to is every [email protected] I think saying that most of their staff are numpties or whatever is a little rude. Especially when you see some of the rubbish people come out with on here, and they purport to be experienced keepers of certain animals. The guy i know who works for [email protected] is very knowledgeable, and could probably teach a few people here a thing or two. I also know one of the girls who works at the local branch and she is very knowledgeable too.
> 
> ...


finally sum1 talking sense


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## davidlottr (Nov 14, 2009)

andy007 said:


> Crikes, If I walked out of every fish shop with a few dead fish in their tanks, my tanks would be empty LOL
> 
> I think people have to remember that just as every independent LFS is different, so to is every [email protected] I think saying that most of their staff are numpties or whatever is a little rude. Especially when you see some of the rubbish people come out with on here, and they purport to be experienced keepers of certain animals. The guy i know who works for [email protected] is very knowledgeable, and could probably teach a few people here a thing or two. I also know one of the girls who works at the local branch and she is very knowledgeable too.
> 
> ...


 
i understand where you are coming from but from every pets at home i have been i have have more sence in my lil figer then they do in there heads, and if you didd read what i said then you will see i said not all but most.

its not rude its like saying fish live in water its true, all they have in that shop is the people who never left school with GCSE's and they got 3 places to go

B&Q
Mac D's / anything like that
or
Pets At Home

this is just what i think, there ,may be people out there like you who dont have a prob with the place or staff but then again there are people like me who just think its full of :censor:.


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

And of course You're perfect:whistling2:


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## tomb87 (Nov 10, 2009)

davidlottr said:


> i understand where you are coming from but from every pets at home i have been i have have more sence in my lil figer then they do in there heads, and if you didd read what i said then you will see i said not all but most.
> 
> its not rude its like saying fish live in water its true, all they have in that shop is the people who never left school with GCSE's and they got 3 places to go
> 
> ...


 you do need 5 gcse's though to even get an interview so how you work that out, ive got a levels, and finishin my ND now so can go vet school next year so how can this be. 75% of the girls who work at ours have done animal care at college


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## tomb87 (Nov 10, 2009)

tomb87 said:


> you do need 5 gcse's though to even get an interview so how you work that out, ive got a levels, and finishin my ND now so can go vet school next year so how can this be. 75% of the girls who work at ours have done animal care at college


 and if you are ever in a store and you want to know something and you are speaking to say a till girl then y not say could i speak to sum 1 with more experience and they will get you sum 1 knowledgable in that field


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

And from my own personel experience, the [email protected] near me when i spoke to the fish person of the shop, who was at the time selling the small fluval edge to someone and advising they could have all sorts of gourami and such in it, had no intention of listening otherwise and continued to give the poor advice.


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## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

I've had to remove a number of posts from this thread.

Please try to keep things civil; you can disagree with one another and have healthy debate without having to resort to playground name calling and threats. : victory:


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## Sega (Dec 8, 2009)

Mines a bit like that althought theres a couple of decent staff in there, including one guy who was exotic animal mad when he was at school with me. I was off sick the day he brought in his pet snake.
The fish bit in mine definatley is a bit of a state though, dead fish are left there for long periods of time even when the store isnt busy. Tanks are often a bit mucky too and the goldfish tanks especially are over crowded, many fish in them are sick, damaged or dying. The tropical tanks are often a bit better and dont suffer from so much overcrowding.


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## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

tomb87 said:


> there is only one specialist rep centre and it still does not do snakes, just a greater variety of lizards. and in other stores as i stated earlier if u had bothered to read then every store has at least 1 oata trained full time member of staff who if sum 1 doesnt know something can ask them and they train the other staff


However, you also started off with "i work there and all staff have to do oata training so how can they be untrained". Which is incorrect on a company-wide scale, you did not specify you were talking about specialist centres only. You _then_ said that one person per store has OATA training - which is pretty much the same as my comment - the majority of staff do _not _have OATA training.

I'm not arguing with you - we are both making the same point, I just phrased it differently : victory:


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## tomb87 (Nov 10, 2009)

neep_neep said:


> However, you also started off with "i work there and all staff have to do oata training so how can they be untrained". Which is incorrect on a company-wide scale, you did not specify you were talking about specialist centres only. You _then_ said that one person per store has OATA training - which is pretty much the same as my comment - the majority of staff do _not _have OATA training.
> 
> I'm not arguing with you - we are both making the same point, I just phrased it differently : victory:


 fair 1 but u could of asked to speak to the oata person in store


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

> lol twig, i think you are right in your thinking, but could put that across a bit better. The problem is not that they explain why you shouldnt have the fish right now, its the fact they dont explain....because they dont know...but speak to you as if they do know.
> 
> They are told what to sya and they say it to keep jobs, not because they give a toss about a fish or because they understand why. I think if the staff said you cant have these right now...BECAUSE of the following, perhaps it would be a better case to have a slight dig at OP's comments. to just say have 4 now come back next week for another 4 without giving substantial reasoning is what has perhaps got on OP tits here.
> 
> ...


it *should* absolutely go without saying that the customer is either given a well explained alternative OR the reason that the sale is denied is made understandable to them. This is much harder with some customers than other. I remember having a nightmare with an old gentleman who was trying to cycle his tank with his own urine (pints of it) and didnt understand why his water test showed ammonia that was off the scale or why I just couldn't sell him some discus. But the staff MUST explain their reasonings and not just wag a finger at a customer that is getting it wrong (or laugh at them as i nearly did in this case). I think that perhaps I miss understood the OP's post as I had thought they were griping for being asked questions.. my bad!

Kat


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## lobley (Jan 26, 2008)

well were do i start

i went to another pet shop 
she was human and explained to me what i could put in 
when i said plek it was a little catfish , i call all catfish pleks for some reason , and they only were 2 inch fully grown

im no fish expert and do agree with what there trying to do , but people cant be talked to like they do , 

and it was not a matter of a childish paddy because i could not have what i want

well im sorted now and have 8 small fish in her tank doing fine and the water has been checked 

i will never use pets at home again sorted

and has for there bearded dragon £100 each omg


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## bainsy (Feb 17, 2009)

davidlottr said:


> i understand where you are coming from but from every pets at home i have been i have have more sence in my lil figer then they do in there heads, and if you didd read what i said then you will see i said not all but most.
> 
> its not rude its like saying fish live in water its true, all they have in that shop is the people who never left school with GCSE's and they got 3 places to go
> 
> ...


My girlfriends brother works in pets at home in the fish section. Think he's the assistant manager of the fish bit. He's currently doing his masters at uni and is very well up on his tropical fish. To tarnish everyone who works there with the same brush is simply retarded


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

davidlottr said:


> i understand where you are coming from but from every pets at home i have been i have have more sence in my lil figer then they do in there heads, and if you didd read what i said then you will see i said not all but most.
> 
> its not rude its like saying fish live in water its true, all they have in that shop is the people who never left school with GCSE's and they got 3 places to go
> 
> ...



You've got some bad attitude haven't you, but if you're going to state you have more sense in your little finger than they do, at least spell it right and make sure you dont contradict yourself in every post. Which is "all" or "most"?


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