# Bringing out colours in broms



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I can't do it. I have 6 CF daylight bulbs and they still slowly lose their colours. I plan on adding a T5 tube as I have a spare starter but would this be enough?

How do you keep broms nice and colourful?


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

my red earth star has been a lush red for months and thats just under a reptiglow 2.0 the other striped broms have also kept there nice purple centres and tips :lol2:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Red stars I've never had a problem with, it's the others.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Try a UV bulb, it will encourage the production of flavenoids, which are a red pigment.

Ade


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Try a UV bulb, it will encourage the production of flavenoids, which are a red pigment.
> 
> Ade


One problem, the entire top is covered in glass.


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

i had a red brom under a 10% UV bulb and it still went a washed out colour after a few months. I just buy another one when it does this £3 from tesco lol


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Tesco broms...*spits*


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Tesco broms...*spits*


:lol2: They only last 5 minutes in a viv, my ent one however is lasting like 8 months and keep growing an endless supply of pups!


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

andaroo said:


> :lol2: They only last 5 minutes in a viv, my ent one however is lasting like 8 months and keep growing an endless supply of pups!


Yeah ENT are good, have you noticed their selection has really decreased?


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## FrogNick (Jul 2, 2009)

you will be hard pressed to match sun light were most of these are commerical grown. The only ones i found you can turn red under T5HO are fireballs which usualy only turns colour in the center which goes a pink red these would be completley purple/red colour outdoors.

Hawaiian Sunshine Nursery Catalog


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

FrogNick said:


> you will be hard pressed to match sun light were most of these are commerical grown. The only ones i found you can turn red under T5HO are fireballs which usualy only turns colour in the center which goes a pink red these would be completley purple/red colour outdoors.
> 
> Hawaiian Sunshine Nursery Catalog


Bah! Yeah I've managed to keep fireballs red in the centre, but never the full red they can achieve.

I need a PAR reader or something. I'm sure the right amount of T5HO can get them looking great. If there are lights available that will keep marine corals, I'm sure there's something to get broms shining.

I've seen a hydroponics lighting system with 8 T5HO bulbs and it's only around £250.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Totally I would agree with Nick,our broms got almost burned by the sun this year as i felt my way in the new greenhouse ... first summer growing these outside,Morg even the neo ampullcea went purple ...before it went too far i moved them to a green plastic tent under me plum tree,(morg you've seen the pics),one of the larger neos the variagated one with some red went blood red...tip to tip (though the leaves looked almost burned the tips didn't dry up much) This same brom was situated at the top back of our first big viv almost as close to the light as poss and it has lost a bit of colour, but it still is a good red in the center. In my experiance it is a very very intense light that causes this (interesting with respect to what Ade was saying as this was under glass...curious) the actual major shift was may/ june time and was very quick,well say a month can't quite remember though it made me realise that they needed moving it was pretty drastic.
Mate back over to you...if one used lights of this intensity would it not mess with the frogs ?...ps the light...T5 24 watt


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I've heard that broms, if you're putting them outside, need to be slowly introduced to the high light of the sun. Otherwise they may burn.


*thinks* It's only a 40cm x 40cm area I will use, so I can spash out on some intense LEDS...maybe? Or even have it so it receives natural light, without direct sunlight. In fact yes, my bedroom has floor to ceiling windows I can put it there.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

mine were behind a piece of shading and they still went nuts (and they were pretty much south facing) ...but this is when the sun is as good as it gets here,should work harnessing a bit of the natural daylight as well as well i think it is realreal intense light to trigger this,tricky init


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

How much dosh do you have available Morgan? I ask, as if you have a fair old wad you could try a TMC AquaRay GroBeam 1000ND tile. I know from experience that these will turn plants red. To explain why:-

I have 2 180 litre planted tanks side by side. Both get the same ferts dosed (read nearly none. lol). Now in both I have red root floater (phyllanthus fluitans), a floating plant that the Tropica catalogue described as difficult, slow growing and needing very high light levels. Now the 1 tank is lit with 4 39 watt T5HO tubes, in this tank it grows extremely fast, but has stayed green in both leaf and root. In the other tank it is lit by my 30 watt TMC GroBeam 1000ND tile, it grows a bit more slowly (still fairly fast though) but both the leaves and roots have turned red.

Now, I know I said earlier that UV lighting helps develop red colors in plants, this statement was from valid research into the roll UV-B plays in the production of flavenoid pigments in order to protect the DNA of the plant. However, less based on research and more on observation, I also believe that PAR (photosynthetically active radiation) levels play a HUGE roll in this. The problem is, it's really hard to get a number for this on most lighting. Wishy washy sources etc, but from what I can gather the 1000ND not only has a higher lumens per watt rating than T5HO, but also a higher PAR.

So what I am saying is, you get more of what plants like, whilst not having to up visible intensity.

You said you were willing to spend £250ish on a hydroponics light, well you can buy a 1000ND for £170, and if you want to get flashy (literally) £180 buys you the latest controller with storm function, the controller with built in PSU and storm function for £90. or you can get what I have (the basic controller) for £80. It will run considerably cooler than those 8 T5HOs, and use a lot LESS power as well. lol

I know they are untested for vivariums, but I will be giving mine a go soon as converting the tank mine is on into a display vivarium soon.

Ade


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

That's exactly what I was thinking of. Have you got a link? I can't remember where I saw it.

Those T5s were 4 feet long, I just mentioned them as it is possible to get lots of light for an alright amount of money.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ade would you mind telling me a little bit more about what par actually means...understand its effects.....( i think)..a type of radiation that activates/enhances photosynthisis is that what you mean ?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I bought mine from these guys. More info on them here.

Will fit nice and neatly.  Even if it doesn't help with the reds, you'll still have a really good light. lol

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> That's exactly what I was thinking of. Have you got a link? I can't remember where I saw it.
> 
> Those T5s were 4 feet long, I just mentioned them as it is possible to get lots of light for an alright amount of money.


Morg is clearly a zillionaire.

Hey, mate? Remember me? Your old mate Ron? Hey buddy, just need some help here...


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> I bought mine from these guys. More info on them here.
> 
> Will fit nice and neatly.  Even if it doesn't help with the reds, you'll still have a really good light. lol
> 
> Ade


I'm going to let you try it first


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> Morg is clearly a zillionaire.
> 
> Hey, mate? Remember me? Your old mate Ron? Hey buddy, just need some help here...


Am I f**k. However I can't go out much, so save money that way.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

soundstounite said:


> Ade would you mind telling me a little bit more about what par actually means...understand its effects.....( i think)..a type of radiation that activates/enhances photosynthisis is that what you mean ?


Well, I can give you a brief version from my understanding of it aye. My understanding is, in it's simplest form, is light that plants can use to photosynthesise with. The rest of the light they get is just, well, not much use to the plant. It's linked to lumens and spectrum, and there are iffy conversions that will turn lumens into PAR. Basically though upping lumens gives a plant more of everything in the light, including wavelengths the plant can't use. Upping PAR is more specific, it's increasing light energy in the spectrum wavelengths that the plant can actually use. I think a quote would serve better at this point:-

"PAR is the abbreviation for Photosynthetically Active Radiation which is the spectral range of solar light from 400 to 700 nanometers that is needed by plants & symbiotic zooanthellic algae (Zooxanthellae are single-celled plants that live in the tissues of animals such as corals, clams, anemones, & nudibranchs) for photosynthesis."

I guess what I am trying to say is, you can increase PAR without increasing visible brightness by using more efficient lighting sources. The LEDs in the 1000ND are a LOT more efficient than a T5HO, and also less light is wasted by leakage to the sides as they are more focused. So your plants are getting more light, but your frogs wont be cooked and blinded in the process.:2thumb:

The tank I have my T5HOs over would need 2 1000NDs to light it, purely because of the length. But my 1000ND is giving off a lot more light that the plants can use than my 4 39 watt T5HO tubes, despite not looking as bright, and using less electricity than just 1 of those tubes.:no1: I'd have more 1000NDs if it wasn't for how expensive they are. lol

Ade


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

PS. Morg, if it can light a 70cm deep aquarium, a viv of the same depth and no water in it will be easy for it. lol

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Well, I can give you a brief version from my understanding of it aye. My understanding is, in it's simplest form, is light that plants can use to photosynthesise with. The rest of the light they get is just, well, not much use to the plant. It's linked to lumens and spectrum, and there are iffy conversions that will turn lumens into PAR. Basically though upping lumens gives a plant more of everything in the light, including wavelengths the plant can't use. Upping PAR is more specific, it's increasing light energy in the spectrum wavelengths that the plant can actually use. I think a quote would serve better at this point:-
> 
> "PAR is the abbreviation for Photosynthetically Active Radiation which is the spectral range of solar light from 400 to 700 nanometers that is needed by plants & symbiotic zooanthellic algae (Zooxanthellae are single-celled plants that live in the tissues of animals such as corals, clams, anemones, & nudibranchs) for photosynthesis."
> 
> ...


Thanks kiddo got it :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


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## FrogNick (Jul 2, 2009)

I use 2 x 80 WATT T5HO bulbs at nearly point blank range on my fireballs and I still can't get them to go completely red. Most people have better things to spend there money on rather than trying to turn there broms red....


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Am I f**k. However I can't go out much, so save money that way.


:lol2:

To be honest mate, I wonder if people have fallen a bit over-in-love with broms. They buy them in full flower from Broms R Us, then wonder why they shortly peg it- hey, peeps, it's what broms do!

Get a clue guys, if a brom is in flower, it's on Death Row- if it hasn't produced pups- which most supermarket ones haven't- it is not going to produce any descendents any time soon. 
And, BTW, broms are not the defining mark of tropical forests- there are alternitives.


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

I don't know if this has been mentioned as I haven't read the whole thread :gasp::whip: :blush: but doesn't day length play a roll in the plants colour as well as the type of lighting provided? Perhaps a 14 hour day rather than a 12 hour day might make a bit of difference as well as having the added bonus of giving the frogs in the viv a seasonal cycle.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

pollywog said:


> I don't know if this has been mentioned as I haven't read the whole thread :gasp::whip: :blush: but doesn't day length play a roll in the plants colour as well as the type of lighting provided? Perhaps a 14 hour day rather than a 12 hour day might make a bit of difference as well as having the added bonus of giving the frogs in the viv a seasonal cycle.


One of my dreams is to have enough money to co-ordinate a system that takes all this into account.


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

are tesco broms s**t then coz of how they are kept before sale, compared to others? or what lol. Coz My planted tank had been sat in a shady area for couple a weeks (moved it now to the window til my 5% repti glo and daylight bulbs get here - any thoughts of if this is a good enough combo?) and my high up tesco brom had completely given up the ghost. Got another today, but I really can't be as arsed as Andaroo buying a new one every few weeks and washing it, re-soiling, removing old one, replanting etc etc :lol2:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

FrogNick said:


> I use 2 x 80 WATT T5HO bulbs at nearly point blank range on my fireballs and I still can't get them to go completely red. *Most people have better things to spend there money on rather than trying to turn there broms red....*


Yeah, most people.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> :lol2:
> 
> To be honest mate, I wonder if people have fallen a bit over-in-love with broms. They buy them in full flower from Broms R Us, then wonder why they shortly peg it- hey, peeps, it's what broms do!
> 
> ...


Mine produce pups fine and root straight away, I enjoy the plants just as much as the frogs so to me it's important to try and get the best out of them.

My vivs are in the living room and I want them to look their best.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> PS. Morg, if it can light a 70cm deep aquarium, a viv of the same depth and no water in it will be easy for it. lol
> 
> Ade


What I think I'll do is maybe build a hood with 3 CF bulbs and have it recieving daylight all day, if I'm not happy with the results from that I'll consider whether I want to try the LEDs.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Right, first off let me demonstrate just what I mean with the red root floater. Talk is cheap, proof is where it's at:-










The clump on the left was taken from the tank with 30 watt LED tile, the clump on the right from a tank with 156 watts of T5HO lighting, both have 9 hour lighting periods (in planted aquariums we use 8-10 hour lighting cycles, as longer encourages algae). The T5HOs are 2 Skywhites and 2 GroLux, the LEDs are 6,500k. Color of tubes made no difference though, was the same story when I had 2 5,800k and 2 6,500k tubes.

Yes duration makes a difference, as you can increase this instead of increasing PAR/intensity etc, but it has a lesser effect, and is more likely to effect your livestock. Plus you can't do that with aquariums, you end up farming algae if you do. 

As to broms, I tend not to use as many as some. I much prefer creeping ficus and orchids. I do however have a gorgeous brom hybrid I bought from ENT, and broms in all of my vivs. I have one though that has flowered a couple of times now, still not dead. It's pupped twice now, and I remove the largest ones. These sap energy from the parent plant, and odds are it's the pups that kill the parent plant. Plants tend to put all of their energy into either producing seeds or growing pups, hence gardeners deadhead roses.  I think also that it depends on species. Guzmania seem to have shorter lives than neos for example, and the broms sold by Tesco etc seem to mostly be Guzmania....

As to 3 CFs and daylight Morg, my Regina viv is pretty much the same. I have a fireball red in the middle, and a very mature (the one that's flowered more than once now) Neoregelia meyendorfii that has a red middle, along with a very very red Cryptanthus 'novistar'.

Oh and to reply to the comment about why spend so much on turning broms red... We're plant geeks, a big part of the hobby for us are the plants. :Na_Na_Na_Na: I've spent far more trying to get the red colour in aquarium plants, balancing different nutrients, tweaking lighting etc.:whistling2:

Ade


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Cheers Ade. Interesting stuff.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

After our chat lastnight i went and took a real close look at the neo i was talking about it has definatly lost that vibrant red throughout now only in the center....although i only have the last year of growing these everything i am seeing backs up what ade is saying, ha ha mate i also agree about the broms,my first brom was neo ampullcea i bought the parent last year maybe june she is still covered in pups,the first thing i did when i got her home was to rip all pups off to try and make more, i think as ade says the pups sap the parent all our adults broms are still going,and yep i keep ripping off the pups, i wish i could remember if any have flowered more than once. Funny Ron cause i will also have broms in every viv but man i love the little ficuses mosses and i never thought i'd hear myself say this after working with them but ferns, for sure i will get into orchids although they always seem hellish pricey or too damn big for my vivs. I also want me plants to look there best although the funny thing is i like really green vivs don't really care for the flowers so much and loads of bright brom technicolour flower spikes do not add to a viv for me ha ha thats why i like neos so much.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Neos work for me for their size and the fact I have the best success growing them.

I actually have a large all red brom that's kept it's colour for six months, I think it's Aechmea?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

oh buddy i wish i could hold all these bloody names,me heads full of ali,an glass at the me actually literally full of ali i came in tonight looking like a f:censor:ing glitter ball


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I can remember botanical names fine, it's my kids birthdays I struggle with.....

Ade


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> I can remember botanical names fine, it's my kids birthdays I struggle with.....
> 
> Ade


I forget EVERYTHING.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> I can remember botanical names fine, it's my kids birthdays I struggle with.....
> 
> Ade


 ha ha shouldn't have so many then.still as long as you remember your lady you might just survive


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

Ron Magpie said:


> :lol2:
> 
> To be honest mate, I wonder if people have fallen a bit over-in-love with broms. They buy them in full flower from Broms R Us, then wonder why they shortly peg it- hey, peeps, it's what broms do!
> 
> ...


yes but Ron the ones at broms r us and tescos etc with the flower are mostly guzmania and vriesia mix and not the neoregelia most of us keep in dartfrog vivs. the tesco broms are grown to stick on your windowsill with its pretty flower. Ive got about 8 of these around the house and all there flowers have died but the plants are still going strong with lots of pups coming out, not that struck on these type in my dartfrog vivs though
and in all fairness most people grow neoregelia broms in dartfrog vivs for spawning pools they produce


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Morgan Freeman said:


> I can't do it. I have 6 CF daylight bulbs and they still slowly lose their colours. I plan on adding a T5 tube as I have a spare starter but would this be enough?
> 
> How do you keep broms nice and colourful?


Why have you not done a thread asking about the best lighting for the premier plant - MOSS BALLS? They're exciting you know....


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

richie.b said:


> yes but Ron the ones at broms r us and tescos etc with the flower are mostly guzmania and vriesia mix and not the neoregelia most of us keep in dartfrog vivs. the tesco broms are grown to stick on your windowsill with its pretty flower. Ive got about 8 of these around the house and all there flowers have died but the plants are still going strong with lots of pups coming out, not that struck on these type in my dartfrog vivs though
> and in all fairness most people grow neoregelia broms in dartfrog vivs for spawning pools they produce


 Yeah, I've got a really nice neoregelia that I got from Just Airplants in my treefrog viv- it's definitely going into the upgrade!:2thumb:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Alex M said:


> Why have you not done a thread asking about the best lighting for the premier plant - MOSS BALLS? They're exciting you know....


:no1:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Alex M said:


> Why have you not done a thread asking about the best lighting for the premier plant - MOSS BALLS? They're exciting you know....


Some people keep them as pets.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Some people keep them as pets.


 Some people keep slime moulds as pets...:whistling2:


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

I don't want to take this off topic Ron and Morg but given that interaction with Moss Balls is a massive part of the excitement of owning them, well, can i handle MB's without gloves on, or would this hurt them?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Alex M said:


> I don't want to take this off topic Ron and Morg but given that interaction with Moss Balls is a massive part of the excitement of owning them, well, can i handle MB's without gloves on, or would this hurt them?


Yeah, why don't you just inject them with cyanide while you're at it?


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Yeah, why don't you just inject them with cyanide while you're at it?


Is that a firm 'No' then?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Alex M said:


> Is that a firm 'No' then?


Go crazy. Just watch out for youngsters, bit nippy.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Go crazy. Just watch out for youngsters, bit nippy.


I've heard this, but as there are no children in the house (other than myself) i figured i'd chance it even though i don't currently hold a DWA licence.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Alex M said:


> I've heard this, but as there are no children in the house (other than myself) i figured i'd chance it even though i don't currently hold a DWA licence.


They're overated anyway. Just be careful mxing males and females.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I've heard they're also implicated in carrying mad weed disease- make sure you wash your hands after handling, preferably with an anti-bacterial soap.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Alex M said:


> I've heard this, but as there are no children in the house (other than myself) i figured i'd chance it even though i don't currently hold a DWA licence.


Ok I know.... I know, i always gotta be the dumb f:censor: k and ask the stupid Q (its a bit like QI) but what the hell are moss balls ...Al is that something you use to keep the ruddy lead guitarists out of your ears?......One day i'll be educated honest....erm well maybe.:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> Ok I know.... I know, i always gotta be the dumb f:censor: k and ask the stupid Q (its a bit like QI) but what the hell are moss balls ...Al is that something you use to keep the ruddy lead guitarists out of your ears?......One day i'll be educated honest....erm well maybe.:Na_Na_Na_Na:


Guys, he knows too much.

Ron, Al.....get the van.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Guys, he knows too much.
> 
> Ron, Al.....get the van.


:lol2: he he no mate i'm in the dark as always totally in the dark.


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