# So i went to the vets...



## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

I AM SO :censor: ANNOYED

It took me an hour and a half to get to Ashleigh Vets!

When i was FINALLY seen to he asked what was wrong with it, I said it hasn't eaten i think theres a problem with its tongue.

He saw it and said oh its a really small one. He picked it up and tried shoving a business card into its mouth.

He turned to his assistants and said did u see that yes? and they both nodded.

"I'm going to stop there" he said.
"It has a jaw problem (blah blah blah) basically it has a rubbery jaw thats why i couldnt get it open and its jaw moved to the side, its basically caused by (blah blah blah) aka metabolic bone disease."

Yes I've heard of that and thought that was what the problem was.

"there's 2 options, the best option would be euthanasia as there isn't much chance of it bettering, 2 would be to give it calcium drops in it's mouth."

:censor: I was so ****ing pissed off, I basically said everything Lotte had told me, 'take it to the vet they will give it an injection of calcium to stabalise it' I said i had spoke to an expert (Lotte) and she said they would do this. He laughed and said "i wish it was so simple, calcium injections would sting and possibly kill it, normally we would take blood samples but its so small so there's no chance."

He was basically waiting for me to say ok put it down then, but i didnt i argued and said it was weird because what your saying if conflicting with what Lotte had told me. I also said cant you put something in its water, which he said toads dont absorb things like that well through their skin as frogs do.

He blamed it on not gut loading the crickets (which i do!) and basically that calcium powder is pointless because it falls off and the amount the toad consumes is tiny.

He said with the calcium drops i have to get its mouth open and squirt it in and theres a 20-30% chance that it will get better, so basically 70-80% its going to die :censor:

I'm so annoyed i was told one thing then something completely the oposite by the vet, it was like he wasn't bothered and he didn't give a shit as it was only a small british toad. I'm not giving up hope and i wasnt going to pay them to kill it so I went with the calcium liquid drops! :censor: UGHHH I was so upset i drove so far for basically nothing!


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## IanF94 (Oct 12, 2008)

Care to explain why? What's happened?


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## jennlovesfrogs (Jan 22, 2009)

oh no, what's happened?


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

sorry i hit send before i had finished typing!

It cost me £31.56

£24.21 for the consultation and £7.35 for the liquid calcium


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## IanF94 (Oct 12, 2008)

Yeh that does sound like an odd call. Was he a qualified amphibian vet?


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

andaroo said:


> I AM SO :censor: ANNOYED
> 
> It took me an hour and a half to get to Ashleigh Vets!
> 
> ...


i cant help, but he sounds crap...but remove the swear word as its not over 18's and you will get told off.

seen vets like that, useless


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

It's a shame people end up with such different perceptions of things 

I'm assuming it was Aiden Rafftery that you saw? I've dealt with him personally in the past and honestly believe he is a good guy and he's seen more of the animal than I did 

The suggestions I made to you Andaroo (as to the action the vet may take) were based on the possibilities, but having not seen the animal in the flesh. Also based on the skills and experience that our Zoo Vets have here at Durrell, unfortunately the average herp vet may not be that confident with amphibians or up to date with their abilities and knowledge.

I'm not a qualified vet of any kind, I can only relay my own experiences and the kind of actions or own vets would take. 

At the end of the day the guys at Ashleigh were likely your best/only option to at least try to fix this.
At least he confirmed that the animal has rubber jaw, all the advice I gave in terms of MBD treatment, calcium and UV still stands, you are still armed and able to try those routes.

All that really happened was the vet was not willing/confident to attempt the kinds of actions I suggested, that is his perogative, he's more qualified than me and sadly mentioning me as an "expert" probably got his back up anyway!!! (No one likes hearing about faceless internet experts who know better than them...).

I'm sorry that it cost you money and a drive that may seem to have been relatively fruitless, but do you not feel that if it all comes to nothing, at least you did your very best in terms of the Vet avenue?

A few points;

-A business card/credit card/small flexible flat object was the safest way to open that animals mouth, he did the right thing no matter how barbaric it may have looked 

-Euthenasia as an option. Don't mistake MBD as being non-lifethreatening.
He suggested euthenasia as recovery from this may be a very long hard road and may never be complete. He was just being realistic, perhaps a little tactless but I doubt he intended to come across as heartless...

It's a massive shame that he was simply not open to some of the ideas I am used to here. Amphibian medicine is horribly understudied.
Calcium injections are possible in amphibians but as I'd mentioned calcium gluconate in the water is a more approachable method. 

Toads can and do absorb calcium via the skin from the waterbowl. As I said, if you can't get gluconate you can buy a calcium syrup for humans called Calcium Sandoz, because it's a syrup it's not ideal and will need to be kept refrigerated and the waterbowl changed and wiped out daily.

For a small amphibian, clearly you wouldn't try to gain a diagnosis via blood sampling, but an X-ray would have revealed plenty.


While it is hard to take, MBD *is* a result of your husbandry not adding up. He was not blaming you, simply stating the facts.
Your toad is calcium deficient, either it never got enough calcium (likely) and/or it never got enough vitamin D3 (Certain) which is essential for your toad to take up and utilise calcium in it's diet.

You have two weapons against his MBD. The UV tube you are now using and the liquid calcium you now have to give him.

These two in combination are all that you need to attempt to fix this. 
Lotte***


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## jennlovesfrogs (Jan 22, 2009)

oh no, I am sorry to hear this  all the get better wishes to turnip! 

it's horrible when you feel unable to help. and at least you know exactly what the problem is now and can at least try a few more things.

I had the official diagnosis back from the cultures taken from one of my whites today, and I am so glad I did! basically if I hadn't had the antibiotics given to me to give to him a week ago, he wouldn't have been here now  cost an arm and a leg for all the testing and medicine, but so worth it, as I would never of wanted him dying and me doing nothing on my mind.

my friggy has a seroma on his leg with infection inside cutting a long story short, he came to me like this, and after having him a few days and it getting worse I took him to my herp vet (I am one of the lucky few to have one very close to where I live)

anyway, after a week of being on these meds (still another week at least to go) he has made a big improvement and the seroma has gone down by around a half!

thankfully he is very active and uses his leg fine and eats well. so here's hoping to speedy recoveries all round! xxx


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

Saedcantas said:


> It's a shame people end up with such different perceptions of things
> 
> I'm assuming it was Aiden Rafftery that you saw? I've dealt with him personally in the past and honestly believe he is a good guy and he's seen more of the animal than I did
> 
> ...


Yes that was him,
I was suprised he didn't even take an xray. I've had such a bad day and I feel really miserable.

He gave me zolcal-d (liquid calcium and vitamin d3) to be given orally. I asked if there was anything I could add to the water and he said nothing would work.:whip:

Honestly 2 weeks ago it was fine and I said this, he said because they grow rapidly things come on quickly. 

What i don't understand is how do they find calcium gut loaded insects and survive in the wild?!

I wish you had come in with me Lotte, I was thinking that as I walked out, I felt like such an idiot 

Gonna try giving it its supplement now, I have to use a syringe put up to the 3 units of stuff in then dilute it with water to 30 units then push it down to 3 units. Will this work in its water and is he right saying theres only a 20-30% chance of this working?
He didn't even mention using a UV lamp nor did I as i'm sure he wouldn't have told me it was pointless :censor:
He also said it could take 6 months to fix
so upset


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Im sorry youre having so much trouble with your froggie 

But i do have to agree completely with Lotte here - we have been to Ashleigh vets to see the same chap on many occasions now and have nothing but good words to say about him - that wasnt an unreasonable price to pay for a specialist herp vet and medication - and there really is no better way to check inside an animals mouth than to use something like the business card (perhaps it would have looked better if it was a stainless steel instrument?) He did this with one of my rescue snakes and also my flatmates chameleon who had MBD and tongue problems.

There really are no other options than calcium drops and UV or having him pts - at least you are giving him the benefit of the doubt by trying to get him back to health now. 

Best of luck hun :grouphug:


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

Atleast you came away with some calc drops and know for definite it's MBD.

After Lotte's suggestion of Calcium Gluconate the other day I tried to find some, and came up with Calcium Gluconate Gel (Watch out for the £10 processing fee for orders under £75!!!)...Not sure if that'd be much help if it needs to be diluted in the water, I assumed you could just put a little dollop on the toads back. Pet Meds sell powder but its out of stock at the mo, they do have some Effercescent Calcium Gluconate tablets in (Whatever that is!!)
(The last vet I spoke to totally poo-poo'd the idea of C Gluconate as she said there's lots of vits and minerals the toad needs to be able to use the calcium. Although this is the same woman who told me they probably hadn't come out of hibernation properly yet and my best bet was to move them closer to the window and keep their humidity above 40%)

I'm wondering whether the Exo-Terra Electrod3ize would be worth importing from the states, risking customs  as I got onto them and they class it as medication so won't sell it over the counter here !!!! *(What about Critical Care Formula, that can be diluted so i'm told?)*

I use Calcimize for my water, however there's only enough for 10L of treated water per bottle, *Is it worth using this ???* (Off to the cash-n-carry hopefully later in the week so can stock up on some a bit cheaper than elsewhere if its worth using.)


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

andaroo said:


> What i don't understand is how do they find calcium gut loaded insects and survive in the wild?!


In short, many wild invertebrates contain calcium, and this coupled with the huge variety of species available to make up a wild amphibians diet, see that the said amphibian gets all that it needs. Remember, the small variety of store bought insects are rarely nutritionally 'ready to go'...gut loading is absolutely essential in my opinion. Just as in humans, amphibians 'are what they eat' 

Hope everything pans out ok for you
Cheers
Al


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

I tried giving the supplement orally but it just squirmed and wriggled and pushed my thumbs away, its weird that its so strong for something so small that has a bone disease, I squirted it onto its back instead hopefully that'll work


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Alex M said:


> In short, many wild invertebrates contain calcium, and this coupled with the huge variety of species available to make up a wild amphibians diet, see that the said amphibian gets all that it needs. Remember, the small variety of store bought insects are rarely nutritionally 'ready to go'...gut loading is absolutely essential in my opinion. Just as in humans, amphibians 'are what they eat'
> 
> Hope everything pans out ok for you
> Cheers
> Al


May point out that i'm not suggesting that store bought insects are calcium deficient, this is not neccessarily always the case, each species have their own natural 'ingredients' so to speak. Just most are nutritionally lacking, especially without the huge benefits of gut loading.


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

> After Lotte's suggestion of Calcium Gluconate the other day I tried to find some


Calcium Gluconate should be available in liquid form from a veterinarians & some farm supply stores, it's normally used to treat cattle with milk fever.



> I tried giving the supplement orally but it just squirmed and wriggled and pushed my thumbs away


You will have to be firm and hold the toad in a way that it can't squirm and wriggle too much. Try picking it up so it's rear legs are dangling down your palm and wrap your last 3 fingers around it's body and legs, then use your thumb and first finger to hold it's head. I trust the vet gave you a syringe with a plastic tube on rather than a needle in which case it should be quite easy to slide it into it's mouth without harming the toad. Once you've done it once you will find it quite easy to do from then on.


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

Now this is weird...

I just checked my toad over myself with a business card and my little finger touching its jaw and head and it didn't fall out of place... its head moved back with my finger and then the weirdest thing... it opened its mouth FULLY as wide as possible right in my hand then closed it up again, how the hell could it have done that if it was "rubbery"... I smell bullsh*t


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

pollywog said:


> Calcium Gluconate should be available in liquid form from a veterinarians & some farm supply stores, it's normally used to treat cattle with milk fever.
> 
> 
> You will have to be firm and hold the toad in a way that it can't squirm and wriggle too much. Try picking it up so it's rear legs are dangling down your palm and wrap your last 3 fingers around it's body and legs, then use your thumb and first finger to hold it's head. I trust the vet gave you a syringe with a plastic tube on rather than a needle in which case it should be quite easy to slide it into it's mouth without harming the toad. Once you've done it once you will find it quite easy to do from then on.


My toad is tiny about the size of a 2p when its sat down, this is why it's so difficult  and probably why the vet didnt give a :censor: in trying to help it


I just remember something else he said, he mentioned that it could have a problem with its kidneys too. *sigh* I guess i'm just gonna have to wait and see if it gets better fingers crossed!


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

andaroo said:


> My toad is tiny about the size of a 2p when its sat down, this is why it's so difficult  and probably why the vet didnt give a :censor: in trying to help it
> 
> 
> I just remember something else he said, he mentioned that it could have a problem with its kidneys too. *sigh* I guess i'm just gonna have to wait and see if it gets better fingers crossed!



Unfortunately he may have high phosphate levels too (impossible to confirm without a blood test which is not a good idea on an amphib so small!) which would indicate kidney failure. This is exactly what my flatmate had with his cham possibly due to lack of calcium in the diet (in his case definitely not due to lack of UV) as i say - the ONLY thing you can do is increase the amount of calcium in the diet which you are doing with the drops - its not that the vet didnt give a cr*p, there really is nothing else you can do if its kidney problems or calcium deficiencies or a both... keep doing what your doing - its the little chaps best chance : victory:


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

*Grrrrrrrrrrr*

:censor: vets are useless

Finally got to talk to the rep/phib 'expert' at my not-so-local vets that came highly recommended. (So much for them calling me back yesterday...I rang at 9am to try n make sure I caught em)

His advise......USE BUG GRUB !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bash:

* He said the toads have basically become anorexic and I need to push them to feed, without force feeding. (Post-hibernation anorexia??) and that when they do feed its gotta be chock-full of calcium and dusting powder is useless coz the crickets clean themselves off (Duh!)
* Hibernation also cropped up...but this time he said it was probably my fault for bringing them out early  (2 Toads died during the cold spell ffs what was I meant to do....I thought it was in their best interest!!!)
* He bollocked me for my 10% UVB light saying "That's far too strong. You're blinding the poor buggers" 5% Max
* He said 'Not wanting to do myself out of a job but an x-ray won't help them' & the only other option would be Calcium Injections but the toads are too small and its not the way to go



So.......


This is my plan.


*Order** some Zolcal-D* (Had I realised I could buy this I would've done it a month+ ago) I feel confident that thanks to andaroo's description I can sucessfully administer the correct dose as 3 of my 4 problem toads are very similar size....although I'll check with the label against their bodyweight first obviously)
Possibly use this in their water all the time, or give them an hours bathe in stronger solution daily ??

*Order some Critical Care Formula.* (According to Vetark this can't be added into the water, or atleast they don't mention it on their site. So I propose to feed them it, somehow:whistling2 (credit card & oral syringe?)

Carefully monitor them and weigh each week.

Cross my fingers and hope.



P.S - After the disaster of moving my sick toads last time (having two die the next day) I don't really want to seperate them to a different tank, but there's one in there that's doing absolutely fine....Would a clinical tank / seperated area in the main tank be better than leaving them in with their coco sub and the other seemingly fine toad?


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## arvey (Jan 3, 2008)

Hello, If i were you i would get hold of a blue iv catheter to attach to a syringe, that way you can with care use the catheter to open the mouth and medicate orally as well. i find thet works well for small amphibians. supportive care is what they need more than anything and this includes assist feeding and calcium supplementation. thats what i used for this guy amongst others
Goodluck


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## jennlovesfrogs (Jan 22, 2009)

omg that little guy is so tiny! bless!! my whites would eat him as a snack! LOL


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

REDDEV1L said:


> :censor: vets are useless
> 
> Finally got to talk to the rep/phib 'expert' at my not-so-local vets that came highly recommended. (So much for them calling me back yesterday...I rang at 9am to try n make sure I caught em)
> 
> ...


He also weighed my toad and it was *2.2g*
The dosage was as follows:
Draw up to 3 units of Zolcal-D, draw in water until it reaches 30 units (27 units of water) then put it in it's mouth until it lowers to 3 units.

10% UVB isn't bright i've used white led's for lighting up the tank for ages and they are just as bright if not brighter!
:bash:


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

Thanks for that. (3 of mine are very similar weight last time they were weighed, 2.6 2.2 & 3.1)

Such a shame some vets aren't inclined to try anything, presumably because they're native and small. (Although the first one I tried was willing to do an x-ray but guaging from her other advice I wouldn't trust her with the results (Plus she quoted £62 just for the x-ray!!)

Finally located some Zolcal-D, after 10 phonecalls to vets and rep shops alike (I know u can order it online but wanted it ASAP) One vet said they'd never heard of it, another said they hadn't stocked it in 10 yrs and a few rep shops hadn't heard of it either, one recommended I ring a Tropical Fish shop...LOL!! 
Turns out the vets up the road, who don't do exotics, have ordered some and should have it in by tomorrow.

As for the lights, I agree, if they don't like it they'll go off and hide, but my lightest coloured one still appears to bask in it, so he obviously approves...lol

One thing you could try andaroo, is hold it like suggested in the posts above, then if no luck, release your hold and wait for her to yawn like she did yesterday then aim and fire. This worked a little when I was using repton and calc dilution a week ago


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

REDDEV1L said:


> Thanks for that. (3 of mine are very similar weight last time they were weighed, 2.6 2.2 & 3.1)
> 
> Such a shame some vets aren't inclined to try anything, presumably because they're native and small. (Although the first one I tried was willing to do an x-ray but guaging from her other advice I wouldn't trust her with the results (Plus she quoted £62 just for the x-ray!!)
> 
> ...



Zolcal-D isn't just for exotic animals the label says its for cats too. The syringe I got with the Zolcal-D is 0.5ml so it comes out in droplets when you push it out.

I tried again to get its mouth open with the business card and no luck, it's too squirmy and ends up hopping out my fingers. It's mouth just won't budge, no yawns either today. So again i ended up squirting it on the back of it's neck. 

I tried livefood again, a meal worm and a pin head cricket and it didn't seem interested, kept flicking them away whenever they came near


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

andaroo said:


> Zolcal-D isn't just for exotic animals the label says its for cats too. The syringe I got with the Zolcal-D is 0.5ml so it comes out in droplets when you push it out.
> 
> I tried again to get its mouth open with the business card and no luck, it's too squirmy and ends up hopping out my fingers. It's mouth just won't budge, no yawns either today. So again i ended up squirting it on the back of it's neck.
> 
> I tried livefood again, a meal worm and a pin head cricket and it didn't seem interested, kept flicking them away whenever they came near


pity you dont speak german, some great germans with vast knowledge. mind you, most speak better english that me..

good luck, i have never kept anphibians.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

cooljules said:


> pity you dont speak german, some great germans with vast knowledge. mind you, most speak better english that me...


What on earth does that mean? No one here has vast knowledge?


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

lol that was a little random...

Lotte will putting the stuff on its back instead of in its mouth make much difference?


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

I was just checking over the instructions on it (Taken from a website so could be wrong) it says for direct administraton use 0.1ml per 100g of animal. Working it out that way, it should be 0.002 - 0.003 ml for our little toads. However, isn't the dosage stated by the vet 0.03ml ? ie 3 units zolcal in a .5ml syringe would be 0.03 (10 units being 0.1ml I assume) or is my maths carp!

Said website says 10ml zolcal per litre of drinking water (which would be soaking water in our case) lol


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

REDDEV1L said:


> I was just checking over the instructions on it (Taken from a website so could be wrong) it says for direct administraton use 0.1ml per 100g of animal. Working it out that way, it should be 0.002 - 0.003 ml for our little toads. However, isn't the dosage stated by the vet 0.03ml ? ie 3 units zolcal in a .5ml syringe would be 0.03 (10 units being 0.1ml I assume) or is my maths carp!
> 
> Said website says 10ml zolcal per litre of drinking water (which would be soaking water in our case) lol


that sounds about right lol :2thumb:
lets hope soaking works!


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i get collo-cal d a liquid calcium and vitaimn d supplement from www.vet-medic.com , can this be used on reps?


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

andaroo said:


> Yes that was him,
> I was suprised he didn't even take an xray. I've had such a bad day and I feel really miserable.
> 
> He gave me zolcal-d (liquid calcium and vitamin d3) to be given orally. I asked if there was anything I could add to the water and he said nothing would work.:whip:
> ...


He was probably confident enough of his diagnosis not to see the need to suggest you spend more money on an X-ray (which if you admit, you may not have taken entirely happily at the time...)

The toad may have seemed fine 2 weeks ago, but consider it this way, inability to eat through deformation of the jaw is a very advanced result of MBD, we're not talking about a problem that started 2 weeks ago when he stopped eating, we're talking about a serious, progressive condition that will certainly have been going on for some time. 
There will have been many signs and previous damage that you just couldn't see. 

As Alex explained, the kinds of food available to your toads in the wild are vastly more varied and balanced than the kinds of food that we can culture at any kind of commercial level. It just happens that most of the foods we can easily produce and therefore use are calcium poor, or have a high phosphorous to calcium ratio, which doesn't help matters.

He is going to need more than just the calcium and D3 you're now providing, supportive care is essential at this point or he will simply die of malnutrition before you can help him recover from MBD.

He needs nutrition provided orally in the least stressful way you can manage, calcium and D3 which may be best applied to the skin (you need to keep the oral route for food!) but be cautious in the use of this, keep up the use of the UV tube.
Only these things in combination can help him and yes, 6 months to make a full recovery (but never a reversal of the damage) is reasonable.

The massively stressful and difficult task that this is, is exactly why Aiden offered to allow your toad the easy way out to the long sleep. 




andaroo said:


> My toad is tiny about the size of a 2p when its sat down, this is why it's so difficult  and probably why the vet didnt give a :censor: in trying to help it
> 
> 
> I just remember something else he said, he mentioned that it could have a problem with its kidneys too. *sigh* I guess i'm just gonna have to wait and see if it gets better fingers crossed!


I know you are upset and aren't exactly 100% chuffed with your experiences. But the Vet you saw was one of THE best people you could have seen, he personally helped me with many emergency and rescue situations, he will have given a :censor:, just not in the way you were hoping to hear.

Kidney (and other organ) damage is a very real aspect of serious MBD. Calcium is essential for many functions in the body including that of vital organs and muscles, it is essential for nerve function. Many cells in the body use "calcium pumps" or "exchange" to perform their specific purposes.
Calcium deficiency in the body is much much more serious than just bone troubles.



andaroo said:


> Now this is weird...
> 
> I just checked my toad over myself with a business card and my little finger touching its jaw and head and it didn't fall out of place... its head moved back with my finger and then the weirdest thing... it opened its mouth FULLY as wide as possible right in my hand then closed it up again, how the hell could it have done that if it was "rubbery"... I smell bullsh*t


Everything you've said in your various topics on this toad has pointed to MBD, this has been confirmed by a Vet that I personally know, knows (most of!) his beans. What more do you want?
As tempting as it is to go over and over the same "well maybe it isn't really MBD or anything else serious so I guess it'll all be ok!?!?!" ground, the sooner you just accept that you've chosen a very difficult and life threatening slog, the better for your toad.

"Rubber jaw" is a colloquial term to describe a jaw that is very poorly calcified, this isn't going to literally look like an elastic band jaw until the animal is well past help.

Lotte***


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

I understand what your saying I was just annoyed because you had told me all this stuff and recommended going to that vet, basically saying everything was going to be fine as long as you did this this and this. SO i followed your every instruction only to be told what the vet said. I'm not going to say anymore as I'm not starting an argument. If the toad dies, that's life, but atleast i'm trying. 

Spring is coming soon so I can always find another, maybe one that isn't so small! But i found it inside in novemeber when all the other toads were hibernating so i took it in. I certainly now have the knowledge and equipment to prevent any future frogs/toads of mine from getting MBD, maybe this one already had it when i took it in, who knows?



Saedcantas said:


> He is going to need more than just the calcium and D3 you're now providing, supportive care is essential at this point or he will simply die of malnutrition before you can help him recover from MBD.
> 
> He needs nutrition provided orally in the least stressful way you can manage, calcium and D3 which may be best applied to the skin


So what do you suggest, liquidising gut loaded bugs and using the syringe to feed it?


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

Saedcantas said:


> He needs nutrition provided orally in the least stressful way you can manage, calcium and D3 which may be best applied to the skin (you need to keep the oral route for food!)


 
Wow...Wonder if my plan of action on page 2 is valid then.
Zolcal for the water and Critital Care forumla for 'food'.


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

REDDEV1L said:


> Wow...Wonder if my plan of action on page 2 is valid then.
> Zolcal for the water and Critital Care forumla for 'food'.


Where can you get this critical care formula from?


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

andaroo said:


> Where can you get this critical care formula from?


rep shops, maybe ebay..

often it comes in huge tubs..

im out at the mo, otherwise i would have sent you some, sorry


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

Yup some reptile shops may sell it. Some of the Livefood sites sell it aswell. (Vetark Critical Care Formula 150g)
Better ask Lotte first tho, it may not be suitable and its a waste of £13 if it isn't.


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

REDDEV1L said:


> Yup some reptile shops may sell it. Some of the Livefood sites sell it aswell. (Vetark Critical Care Formula 150g)
> Better ask Lotte first tho, it may not be suitable and its a waste of £13 if it isn't.


ive used it, often, and i have found some left, not a lot i can send, it would help but i dont know how long you would need to give it for...if anyone else has some a fair bit, then great, i can what little i have, not a problem, but would leave me without


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

I have a gut load formula which comes in a powder but can be turned into a paste, Pro Reptile Gut Load Pro - Formula 100g

could i not water this down so i can squirt it into my toads mouth, its basically skipping the step of gut loading the insects and has 100% natural ingredients...


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

andaroo said:


> I understand what your saying I was just annoyed because you had told me all this stuff and recommended going to that vet, basically saying everything was going to be fine as long as you did this this and this. SO i followed your every instruction only to be told what the vet said. I'm not going to say anymore as I'm not starting an argument. If the toad dies, that's life, but atleast i'm trying.


What kind of argument are you hoping to avoid?

Hopefully the above comment came across in a way it was never intended, but to me it sounds like it's in the same tone as the whole topic, not good...

To me it's pretty clear that you think I personally have fed you a load of stuff, coerced you into going to see a vet, set you up to spend an hour and half driving and then spend money and then look silly in front of the vet and come away just feeling like a fool.

If that is how you feel, just get let out, because it's way out of line.

If you read through your previous topics, to which I responded and categorically read all of my responses, you will see that I specifically did NOT ever state or even allude that;



> basically saying everything was going to be fine as long as you did this this and this.


I gave you a list of actions that a vet may undertake in such situations, a list of actions that are genuine, based on my own experience, actions I've seen with my own eyes or assisted with.

I never said any of those situations would/could/should occur in the case of your toad, I never saw it and I am not a Vet, which is exactly why I pressed the point that a consultation with an actual qualified Vet was essential.

I never suggested or stated that THE actual vet you were going to see would definitely or even maybe do these things, I said A vet may perform them. Nothing more.

I never, ever, speculated on the outlook for your animal nor did I say if you follow my advice and information it will all be "fine".

All I have done is offer help. All you have done at every turn is clutch at straws for why it isn't really happening, or how seeing a vet could be avoided, (How many times did I have to tell you? Even now you see no value at all in the peace of mind of a diagnosis.) refuse to see how it could be in any way the fault of our husbandry and now it's my fault that you can only see the negatives in this situation instead of realising just how incredibly serious a situation this is for your toad.


All that said, I hope to god that what you said just came out all wrong and the accusatory tone of this whole topic was just imagined by me.
If I've made a mistake in my interpretation I apologise.
But you've named me personally enough times that I want to be certain no one is going to get the wrong impression here.

Lotte***


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

I pretty much went into the vets thinking everything was going to be fine, so obviously it was a suprise to hear the best thing to do was to have it put down.

I don't blame you, I have to blame myself firstly for not giving the toad enough calcium when I first got it, i had never kept an amphibian before but had always wanted to, this was a way to start off because in the future i wanted to get some RETFs. Now after alot of advice and research I look back and know where I had gone wrong and know for the future what to do to prevent this from happening again. - Mostly thanks to your helpful advice!

Secondly i blame myself for thinking everything would be okay and not considering the symptoms to be serious.

Thirdly for over-reacting, I can see why the vet said what he did, but unknown to him I am preppared to take on the responsibility to help my toad get better.

Sorry if anything was taken out of context. Looking back now, calmly, this thread was done in the heat of the moment and yeah I did over react... but alas i'm doing my best for my toad and that's what matters to me the most!


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