# Feild mouse as a pet?



## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

The missus found a younf mouse in the kitchin earlier.

The cat brought it in.

The mouse looked shook up but seamed ok.

It has now been put it a bit of a set up for the time bein.

Not going to let it go cos the cat will eat it.

Advice please.


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## Omerov1986 (Feb 11, 2009)

feed it to a snake


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Omerov1986 said:


> feed it to a snake



What alive?
Might aswel give it the cat, anyhow I don't have a snake to feed it to.

I could give it to one of my centipedes.
Hey I could even film it and put it on youtube.

Thanks for the idea. 


But putting that aside can anyone help and advise pleaes?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I rescued one from a cat earlier in the year and released it after many weeks(it was to cold to do it earlier.)
If it seems ok tomorrow release it away from the cats territory
Goes to find photos of mine

Release time


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

It's all cat territory by me.
I can't believe this one is about. 

Will give it a few days and see how it looks, so easy to get attatched to though.

I wouldn't do any harm to keep it as a pet though would it?

The cats normally bring birds in.
Crows, jackdaws and seagulls are favorite.

Then its squirrels and song birds.

If it was down to me I'd put elastic bands on the cats legs to stop them jumping the wild life. 


I have bells on the collars, how else can I stop the cats being cruel killers?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

EdGeorge said:


> It's all cat territory by me.
> I can't believe this one is about.
> 
> Will give it a few days and see how it looks, so easy to get attatched to though.
> ...


 
When I got this one I used a milk bottle top as a water bowl it was that tiny. Mine would never have been happy living confined she used to jump at the lid of her tank. Maybe take yours a few miles away to release it, thats what I did


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

I'd never stop wondering about it being hunted by another cat.

But I'll see how it is in a few days and if it's ok to set free we'll take it miles from civilisation.


Bet some bloody kestrel will have it then.

Poor mouse, in a no win situalion.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Well the mouse made it through the night, seems happy and not stressed at the mo.

Will still be waiting a while to decide if we let it go or not.


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

I'd check with the RSPCA because i do belive there are stipulations regarding these little critters stating they are not allowed to be kept as pets :S


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

messengermatt said:


> I'd check with the RSPCA because i do belive there are stipulations regarding these little critters stating they are not allowed to be kept as pets :S



Can you find me the details please?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

EdGeorge said:


> I wouldn't do any harm to keep it as a pet though would it?


If being in contact with a giant hairless monkey causes the mouse stress, yes, it would. We "fostered" a cat-caught field mouse for a couple of weeks while her leg healed - but she was never fit to be kept as a pet. She was terrified of us, and we had to have absolutely minimal contact with her in order for her to settle and eat or drink. Minimouse got set free in a field about two miles from us.



> I have bells on the collars, how else can I stop the cats being cruel killers?


Keep the cats as indoor-only pets, that's the only way.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> If being in contact with a giant hairless monkey causes the mouse stress, yes, it would. We "fostered" a cat-caught field mouse for a couple of weeks while her leg healed - but she was never fit to be kept as a pet. She was terrified of us, and we had to have absolutely minimal contact with her in order for her to settle and eat or drink. Minimouse got set free in a field about two miles from us.
> 
> 
> 
> Keep the cats as indoor-only pets, that's the only way.



I'd rather keep all the wildlife in doors and kick the cats out.

This mouse we have has been eating and drinking.
Even when the missus picked it up it just sat in her hand having a wash.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

If you've got a wild mouse sitting in your hand it's either VERY young... or it's too sick to be the manic popcorn beast they really are.

But if you have cats, you've really only got two choices:

1. indoor/outdoor or fully outdoor cats that catch and kill wildlife.
2. fully indoor cats that don't catch wildlife.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Photo085 - Vox


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Not sure how to do the photo thing, can some one do it for me please?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Thats a bit bigger than the one I had, they appear tame until they grow then the natural instincts take over and they become secretive and terrified of everything

Heres the one I had when I first got it, that is a milk bottle cap I used as a water bowl


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Eating and drinking fine.


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## White_raven666 (Mar 20, 2007)

I took in a tiny little baby wildmouse a few months ago. The cat brought him in the garden and started playing with him (which is strange because he usually kills and eats on site) I decided to handrear him as he still had his eyes closed bless him!! HES SOOO CUTE!!

and now as an adult he's great, he loves coming out, he actually crawls onto my hand and comes up to me from the other side of his cage. Chewwy little monkey though and hangs on bars upside down like hammys do.


















and ill upload some adult piccys soon


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

I'm looking forward to seeing your latest photos.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

EdGeorge said:


> Can you find me the details please?


You need to get a positive ID of the species of mouse first. Get a picture and put it on here for every one to see,

Once you know what it is you can check the English Nature web site to check the Wild life and Countryside Act to see what regulations might effect you keeping it. I know that the majority of rodents are considered pest species and can be kept.

Don't wast your time ringing the RSPCA they are a charity aimed at dealing with companion animals and are well known for their lack of knowledge about native animals. 

Natrix


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## southpython (Feb 18, 2010)

Personally id keep it. :2thumb:


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Natrix said:


> You need to get a positive ID of the species of mouse first. Get a picture and put it on here for every one to see,
> 
> Once you know what it is you can check the English Nature web site to check the Wild life and Countryside Act to see what regulations might effect you keeping it. I know that the majority of rodents are considered pest species and can be kept.
> 
> ...



Can't you see my pictures?
The top one in Shell195 is my mouse and the one in the bit of plastic tube is mine.

We are thinking of keeping it.
Ok so it's come in from the wild but at least it will be away from predators.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Having a wash.









Better pictures for identification.


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## tokay (Mar 13, 2007)

pics are abit small to id :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

tokay said:


> pics are abit small to id :Na_Na_Na_Na:



Do you know what rodent it is?


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

EdGeorge said:


> Can't you see my pictures?
> The top one in Shell195 is my mouse and the one in the bit of plastic tube is mine.
> 
> We are thinking of keeping it.
> Ok so it's come in from the wild but at least it will be away from predators.


Sorry, you posted the pictures as I was replying. It's hard to be sure exactly what it is as it is a juvenile but I would guess at wood mouse or yellow necked mouse. Both are legal to keep.

Good luck with rearing it. 

Natrix


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Would this type mouse be common in a built up residential area?


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

After looking in to it a bit more I'm thinking wood mouse.
No sign a yellow band around the neck.
Mind you as it's a youngster things may look different as it grows.

Thanks for tha help and advice.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)




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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

It actually looks a very happy little mouse:2thumb:
Maybe keep it and if it gets stressy later on then you have the option to release it


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

That last picture amongst the shredded paper is immense!

I vote keep it


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Mowse as she in now known does seem very happy.

Gave her some bird seed earlier and she went straight to the pot and started feeding.
Gets on my hand with no bother, don't jump, run or bite.

Just a very tame little mouse I have become very attatched to.

As you can see from the photos.



Now I can't find any care sheet can some one suggest a good enviroment for Mowse.
At the monent she is in a basic pet mouse set up.


Has anyone thought about breeding and keeping them?

I see harvest mice are kept as pets, how about mice like Mowse.


I wonder if there would be a market for them?


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

I had a colony of field mice.They were bright,active and easy to keep and they hardly smell at all.They came about as someone used to catch them in traps in his rodent shed,didn't have the heart to kill them and gave them to a friend.They bred well in captivity and I took a group of youngsters from her.Very enjoyable and I would have them again.I kept them in a large aquarium with piles of hay and wooden tubes to go in,as the odour is minimal they hardly needed cleaning.They liked to be under things.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Mowse is still doing well and still a happy bunny, woops, mouse.
























































Let me know when you have had enough.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Excellent photos:no1: My little wildie was pinging about in sheer terror by the time she was that size which is why I released her. Maybe you have a "special" mouse


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

She's not bothered about being handled, don't try getting away, just like a tame pet mouse.

I'm still amazed she hasn't turned wild.

I would like to try and get a group of them so next time the cat brings one in I hope it's a male. 


Mowse is still eating, drinking, weeing and pooing like a guddun so things are looking good.

Might look at building a better set up for her.
A few sticks and some thick rope for a bit of variety for her.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Mice shouldn't really be kept alone, though......


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Amalthea said:


> Mice shouldn't really be kept alone, though......


What do you suggest?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Maybe get a female fancy mouse as a friend for her


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Not sure..... If it were me, I'd try to find her some fancy friends (if it's the same species). Make sure you worm her (with kitten worming syrup in her water) and delouse her (with a bit of frontline spray).

ETA: We cross posted, Shell


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

That is absolutely adorable. I say keep it - it looks more content than a lot of 'pet' rodents you see. I'm jealous.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Under close inspection I can't see any unwanted guests on her body.

But worming will be a good idea.

I wouldn't put a fancy mouse in with here due to the size difference.
I'm sure a fancy mouse would kill Mowse with just a nasty look.



I could trap another wild one to go with her, would that be ok?


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

You can't see all of the critters that would live on her.... Mites are microscopic. 

And trapping another wild mouse is not a good idea. You were very "lucky" this one ended up as steady as she is. Mice are gregarious, though, so should not be kept alone. A couple baby girl fancies will be fine.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)




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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Amalthea said:


> You can't see all of the critters that would live on her.... Mites are microscopic.
> 
> And trapping another wild mouse is not a good idea. You were very "lucky" this one ended up as steady as she is. Mice are gregarious, though, so should not be kept alone. A couple baby girl fancies will be fine.


What about when they grow up?
The fancy mice will be massive compared.

I could do with a couple of runts, the ones fancy mice breeders get rid of if you know what I mean.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Size doesn't matter to a group of bonded mice  I have kept little hairless mice with very large show type pink eyed whites (which are HUGE compared to hairless PET mice).


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Will domestic fancy mice bond with a wild one?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Yes Im sure they will, Jen has a wild rat with some fancy rats and Im sure they have bonded


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Yes. Get two babies to go with your little girl (after you have frontlined and wormed her).

ETA: We cross posted again, Shell *lol*


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Amalthea said:


> Yes. Get two babies to go with your little girl (after you have frontlined and wormed her).
> 
> ETA: We cross posted again, Shell *lol*


lol you are becoming like Eileen:whistling2:


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Hang around you lot too much


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

I would like to breed these mice for pets.

Would if be worthwhile.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Omerov1986 said:


> feed it to a snake


That is sooooo yesterday's joke! *yawn*

She's a very pretty mouse! :2thumb:


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

feorag said:


> That is sooooo yesterday's joke! *yawn*
> 
> She's a very pretty mouse! :2thumb:


This Mowse is no way going to be snake food.

I'm sure the child who suggested it feels a bit of a fool now.


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## grannykins (Oct 9, 2006)

We had a baby wood mouse a few years ago, brought in by the cat. She stayed with us and ended up with 2 female fancy mice friends who she snuggled up to happily. She actually outlived both of them, and eventually died at the grand old age of 2yrs - not bad when the average life span in the wild is 6 months!


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Do people keep wood mice?

I understand all sorts of mice are kept as pets.

I want to breed some.


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## tomwilson (Feb 27, 2010)

EdGeorge said:


> I would like to breed these mice for pets.
> 
> Would if be worthwhile.


 i don't think it is legal to sell native species dude, you could keep and breed them as your own pets since they are not on the endangered list though, i could be wrong though


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Thanks 'dude'.

What about harvest mice and them pigmy things, were they from?


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## tomwilson (Feb 27, 2010)

EdGeorge said:


> Thanks 'dude'.
> 
> What about harvest mice and them pigmy things, were they from?


 pygmy dormice are from africa, and i'm not sure about pet harvest mice as i've only recently discovered them as pets sorry


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

tomwilson said:


> pygmy dormice are from africa, and i'm not sure about pet harvest mice as i've only recently discovered them as pets sorry



Seems like we have harvest mice according to Wiki.
Harvest Mouse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have seen them for sale so not sure how it would be for selling wood mice.

I wonder if anyone can jump in with an official view?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

You can also get pygmy mice, tiny little things and very cute:flrt:


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

http://www.vidiLife.com/index.cfm?f=media.play&vchrMediaProgramIDCryp=5598A17A-FE02-4C44-9C8D-C

Sorry about the poo.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I cant get it to load:bash:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I got it! It took ages, so I went and did something else and then watched it.

Very cute little critter! :flrt:


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Shell195 said:


> I cant get it to load:bash:


It took ages to upload, it plays in the end. 

Feorag, she is brilliant, better than any 'pet' mouse I've had.

Early days at the mo though, she may turn wild.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

You could set some bird box at a low leval some where, Check them every now and them, For some babys and when they are the right age, They will be young and tame easy. Just put some blue tit size box's in a hedge'etc. This time of year the wait wouldn't be long.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

I handreared two wild rats last year... They were approximately 10 days old when they got here and after being VERY bonded to me, the male went completely wild and the female (who still lives here with her fancy cagemates) is very shy.


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## tomwilson (Feb 27, 2010)

Amalthea said:


> I handreared two wild rats last year... They were approximately 10 days old when they got here and after being VERY bonded to me, the male went completely wild and the female (who still lives here with her fancy cagemates) is very shy.


 as well as being a nurtured thing tameness is also genetic just look at wolves and dogs no matter how hard you train a wolf pup it will never be as tame as a dog


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

tomwilson said:


> i don't think it is legal to sell native species dude, you could keep and breed them as your own pets since they are not on the endangered list though, i could be wrong though


What if they did put it with domestic fancy mice and they hybridized, That would be genetically house mouse/wood mouse hybrid, Could you sell these ?.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

tomwilson said:


> as well as being a nurtured thing tameness is also genetic just look at wolves and dogs no matter how hard you train a wolf pup it will never be as tame as a dog


 
Definitely!! I was just trying to show the OP that he may not get his tame little "wild" mouse forever.


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## tomwilson (Feb 27, 2010)

gazz said:


> What if they did put it with domestic fancy mice and they hybridized, That would be genetically house mouse/wood mouse hybrid, Could you sell these ?.


 as i said i'm not sure if it is the case, i know it is for alot of native species including ones not on the endangered list i supose that the ofspring would techicaly not be a native species so it may well be the cas that you could sell them there must be a way of checking the law


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

tomwilson said:


> as well as being a nurtured thing tameness is also genetic just look at wolves and dogs no matter how hard you train a wolf pup it will never be as tame as a dog


But it is possible there are wolves out there that can be tamed, that how we got dogs, but it finding that 1 out of the 100 or so that you look for when domesticating a animal, The layed back gene, Ever now and then it pops up.


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## Alex (Jun 14, 2009)

I have not really been following along with this so im not sure if its been said before: victory:

The fancy mice are selectively bred to have specific characteristics. Breeders have worked to produce docile, tame mice by breeding specific mice together to get their traits. This doesnt happen with wild mice. It will usually seem to be tame when young. But as it grows up it will most likely become very skittish. 

That may help someone out also who is reading through and didnt know before :no1:


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

tomwilson said:


> as i said i'm not sure if it is the case, i know it is for alot of native species including ones not on the endangered list i supose that the ofspring would techicaly not be a native species so it may well be the cas that you could sell them there must be a way of checking the law


I don't now how true this is, But i've read on hear over and over, That you can't sell WC slow worms, But you can catch slow worm and breed them and you can sell the 3rd generation offspring.


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## Alex (Jun 14, 2009)

gazz said:


> I don't now how true this is, But i've read on hear over and over, That you can't sell WC slow worms, But you can catch slow worm and breed them and you can sell the 3rd generation offspring.


Yep that is true. The thing is, How do you prove they are CB 3 Gen? Its a very strange law that i do not understand properly.


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## tomwilson (Feb 27, 2010)

gazz said:


> But it is possible there are wolves out there that can be tamed, that how we got dogs, but it finding that 1 out of the 100 or so that you look for when domesticating a animal, The layed back gene, Ever now and then it pops up.


this is correct that a tame animal will be thrown up every now and again but not as tame as a dog. dogs have been bred over 1000's of years of tame animal to tame animal


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Having checked the wildlife and countryside act the other day I can tell you that the only rodents I could find mentioned are doormice and water voles.
As wood mice aren't listed (probably because they are considered vermin and can be trapped and killed) there are no laws governing the selling of them, though I can't see there being a big market for wild caught wood mice. If there was I would have a trap set up in my garden so I could make my fortune:mf_dribble:. 
As it is I just clear up the bits after the cat has finished and remain poor:devil:.

Natrix


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Alex said:


> The fancy mice are selectively bred to have specific characteristics. Breeders have worked to produce docile, tame mice by breeding specific mice together to get their traits. This doesnt happen with wild mice. It will usually seem to be tame when young. But as it grows up it will most likely become very skittish.


Just to add to the melting pot, that was the criteria when cat breeders first starting breeding their domestic cats with wild cats - only the very docile kittens were kept to be bred from (Lord knows what happened to all the rest, which is why I have an ethical problem with this!) down the lines.

However, even after the breed (certainly in Bengals which I have more information on) was 'settled' and began to be shown etc, there still would pop up an adult cat that would turn and go for the judge for no apparent reason, even though it had been the most docile and friendly kitten and juvenile.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Natrix said:


> Having checked the wildlife and countryside act the other day I can tell you that the only rodents I could find mentioned are doormice and water voles.
> As wood mice aren't listed (probably because they are considered vermin and can be trapped and killed) there are no laws governing the selling of them, though I can't see there being a big market for wild caught wood mice. If there was I would have a trap set up in my garden so I could make my fortune:mf_dribble:.
> As it is I just clear up the bits after the cat has finished and remain poor:devil:.
> 
> Natrix


Do people buy harvest mice, spiny mice, pouched rats...............the list goes on.
All that were at one time not so long ago wild.

I think with selective breeding the Wood mouse could become a pet.
Maybe not as tame as the fancy mouse but we have to start some where.

If you can trap me a softish male themn give me a shout.
I need breeding stock.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

I do think it's kind of upsetting that you are planning on PURPOSEFULLY catching wild mice to keep in captivity.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Amalthea said:


> I do think it's kind of upsetting that you are planning on PURPOSEFULLY catching wild mice to keep in captivity.


Given the millions of mice that die in the claws of birds, the paws of cats and from poison and snap traps every year if you were a mouse which would you prefer a life as a pampered pet or sudden nasty death in the wild?
I know which gets my vote.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

But putting a wild animal into a small confined space would be VERY stressful. Mice can be stressy critters at the best of times, but one that has been raised in the wild and used to all the space it could ever want shouldn't really, then be kept in a tank. IMHO.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Amalthea said:


> But putting a wild animal into a small confined space would be VERY stressful. Mice can be stressy critters at the best of times, but one that has been raised in the wild and used to all the space it could ever want shouldn't really, then be kept in a tank. IMHO.


Fare enough. 
I see you keep sugar gliders. Have they always been a captive species or did some one catch some wild ones and put them in a cage to get them started as captive animals? 

Natrix


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

I know it's the same thing, and maybe I am hypocritical by thinking it's not fair.... If the OP had the room to make a HUGE enclosure so the wild caught parents could have as natural set up as possible, maybe it'd be ok.... *shrugs* I know all pets came from the wild at some point, but that doesn't make it right. I would now go out and get a WC pet. Like I said, I handreared two wild rats last year and the male really did go wild after being completely "tame" with me (and only me).... He was stressed in the cage (even though it was a large cage) and aggressive. And that's from a wild animal that was handreared.... Imagine the stress of one that was caught as an adult, or even past the TEENY baby stage (my wild rats didn't even have their eyes open yet when I got them).


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## tomwilson (Feb 27, 2010)

Amalthea said:


> I know it's the same thing, and maybe I am hypocritical by thinking it's not fair.... If the OP had the room to make a HUGE enclosure so the wild caught parents could have as natural set up as possible, maybe it'd be ok.... *shrugs* I know all pets came from the wild at some point, but that doesn't make it right. I would now go out and get a WC pet. Like I said, I handreared two wild rats last year and the male really did go wild after being completely "tame" with me (and only me).... He was stressed in the cage (even though it was a large cage) and aggressive. And that's from a wild animal that was handreared.... Imagine the stress of one that was caught as an adult, or even past the TEENY baby stage (my wild rats didn't even have their eyes open yet when I got them).


 i shall jump ever so slightly to your aid and say that sugar gliders although once wild usually remian within the confinds of one tree in family groups so a confind space large enough wouldn't stress them out to much also they are a little like parrots in the respect that they form an esspecialy strong bond with another member of the group and usually stay piared for life but they but the other member of the group does not have to be another sugar glider it will form this bond with a human companion like parrots


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

tomwilson said:


> i shall jump ever so slightly to your aid and say that sugar gliders although once wild usually remian within the confinds of one tree in family groups so a confind space large enough wouldn't stress them out to much also they are a little like parrots in the respect that they form an esspecialy strong bond with another member of the group and usually stay piared for life but they but the other member of the group does not have to be another sugar glider it will form this bond with a human companion like parrots


So what you are saying is that unlike a mouse that is not overly inteligent and does not form any kind of pair bond the original WC sugar gliders would of been ripped from the safety of their tree and made to settle into a new cage without their bonded partner being present. 
Poor little things.:whistling2:

Natrix


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## tomwilson (Feb 27, 2010)

Natrix said:


> So what you are saying is that unlike a mouse that is not overly inteligent and does not form any kind of pair bond the original WC sugar gliders would of been ripped from the safety of their tree and made to settle into a new cage without their bonded partner being present.
> Poor little things.:whistling2:
> 
> Natrix


no i'm saying they are from australia extend logicaly that exports are band from said country so it was probably a family group taken and been kept in zoo breeding populations for a long time prior to its progeny being sold into the pet trade : victory: and not more intelegent if anything one could assume it could even be less intelegent for mistaking a human for one of its own


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

gazz said:


> What if they did put it with domestic fancy mice and they hybridized, That would be genetically house mouse/wood mouse hybrid, Could you sell these ?.


they don't cross they are a different species.Many attempts have been made as the wood /field mice have beautiful eyes that would be a desirable trait to put into fancy/exhibition mice.They can safely be kept together as long as introduction is done early and the fancies are female.Wood/field mice settle well in captivity as do field voles,I've kept both.I've also kept wild house mouse.Some settle well,some are always flighty and are best released.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

tomwilson said:


> no i'm saying they are from australia extend logicaly that exports are band from said country so it was probably a family group taken and been kept in zoo breeding populations for a long time prior to its progeny being sold into the pet trade : victory: and not more intelegent if anything one could assume it could even be less intelegent for mistaking a human for one of its own


So do zoo's not take them from the wild? 

Sorry but it doesn't matter how much pretty pink ribbon you wrap around it, all animals originate from wild stock and some one at some point had to go catch a few to get the captive population started. 

Unless I've missed some magical place where all animals are already captive.

Natrix


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

sarahc said:


> they don't cross they are a different species.Many attempts have been made as the wood /field mice have beautiful eyes that would be a desirable trait to put into fancy/exhibition mice.They can safely be kept together as long as introduction is done early and the fancies are female.Wood/field mice settle well in captivity as do field voles,I've kept both.I've also kept wild house mouse.Some settle well,some are always flighty and are best released.


Have you tried common shrews?
I gained four half grown orphans a few years ago. They seemed to have no fear of anything but I had to let them go in the end because of the musky smell they produced and the fact that they could eat meal worms faster than the pet shop could order them in.

I did try short tailed field voles but they ate their way out of every container I put them in.

The one's that are really spectacular are the water voles, I'm surrounded by ***** and deep ditches here and we have a few living around the gardens. They are massive compared to the other voles and very sure of them selves, often letting you get to within a few feet of them before disappearing down a nearby hole.

Natrix


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## tomwilson (Feb 27, 2010)

Natrix said:


> Having checked the wildlife and countryside act the other day I can tell you that the only rodents I could find mentioned are doormice and water voles.
> As wood mice aren't listed (probably because they are considered vermin and can be trapped and killed) there are no laws governing the selling of them, though I can't see there being a big market for wild caught wood mice. If there was I would have a trap set up in my garden so I could make my fortune:mf_dribble:.
> As it is I just clear up the bits after the cat has finished and remain poor:devil:.
> 
> Natrix





Natrix said:


> Have you tried common shrews?
> I gained four half grown orphans a few years ago. They seemed to have no fear of anything but I had to let them go in the end because of the musky smell they produced and the fact that they could eat meal worms faster than the pet shop could order them in.
> 
> I did try short tailed field voles but they ate their way out of every container I put them in.
> ...


ok i'm now feeling petty ok non-of the above labeled in red are rodents



Natrix said:


> So do zoo's not take them from the wild?
> 
> Sorry but it doesn't matter how much pretty pink ribbon you wrap around it, all animals originate from wild stock and some one at some point had to go catch a few to get the captive population started.
> 
> ...





Natrix said:


> So what you are saying is that unlike a mouse that is not overly inteligent and does not form any kind of pair bond the original WC sugar gliders would of been ripped from the safety of their tree and made to settle into a new cage without their bonded partner being present.
> Poor little things.:whistling2:
> 
> Natrix





Natrix said:


> Fare enough.
> I see you keep sugar gliders. Have they always been a captive species or did some one catch some wild ones and put them in a cage to get them started as captive animals?
> 
> Natrix


at no point have i said that pets have not originated from wild caught stock. ok. so i don't appreciate the remark about a magical world of pre captive animals.ok. i'm not an idoit.
my point is that sugar gliders actualy make a better candidate for captivity than a wild mouse. however most pet rodents come from lab animals so the start this animal is getting is better than the start most get however i would question breeding for the pet trade from wc stock when there are already specimens of said animal already in the pet trade to breed from.

tom


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

tomwilson said:


> ok i'm now feeling petty ok non-of the above labeled in red are rodents


Shrews aren't rodents, But as fare as i know voles are rodents.


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## tomwilson (Feb 27, 2010)

gazz said:


> Shrews aren't rodents, But as fare as i know voles are rodents.


they're both insectivores i think rodents aren't i'll go check was very petty of me but he p:censor: me off :lol2:
gazz you are correct edited lol


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

sarahc said:


> they don't cross they are a different species.Many attempts have been made as the wood /field mice have beautiful eyes that would be a desirable trait to put into fancy/exhibition mice.They can safely be kept together as long as introduction is done early and the fancies are female.Wood/field mice settle well in captivity as do field voles,I've kept both.I've also kept wild house mouse.Some settle well,some are always flighty and are best released.


I'm still wanting to give breeding a go.

I have some one keeping a look out for some more rescue mice for me.

At the end of the day I don't want to trap any wild ones but saving them from the cats is a more rewarding way.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

Natrix said:


> Have you tried common shrews?
> 
> 
> Natrix


no but I have read up on them as I do like them a lot.It's the varocious appetite that puts me off and they sound pretty feisty.They seem a lot more demanding and specialised .If I came across one/some in need I'd give it a go.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

tomwilson said:


> ok i'm now feeling petty ok non-of the above labeled in red are rodents
> at no point have i said that pets have not originated from wild caught stock. ok. so i don't appreciate the remark about a magical world of pre captive animals.ok. i'm not an idoit.
> my point is that sugar gliders actualy make a better candidate for captivity than a wild mouse. however most pet rodents come from lab animals so the start this animal is getting is better than the start most get however i would question breeding for the pet trade from wc stock when there are already specimens of said animal already in the pet trade to breed from.
> 
> tom


I’m sorry if what I’ve said has upset you but the point that I am trying to get across is that the removal of a few wood mice from the wild is no better or worse than the removal of any other species including sugar gliders or indeed any of the animals listed at the bottom of your post in your signature including the two yellow bellied sliders that would of been collected from a controlled pond in America as captive farmed hatchlings.

To try and say that sugar gliders actually make a better candidate for captivity than a wild mouse actually goes against what most would think. When compared to a mouse, sugar gliders are more evolved, are more specialised (live up trees) and show a higher level of social interaction. These are all pointers that would suggest that the initial wild caught animals, when placed in a cage at ground level would have had a larger amount of adapting to do than a mouse that lives a more basic on the ground life style with less social hierarchy. There is also the fact that as far as I’m aware sugar gliders do not naturally encroach on human habitation where as wood mice will, if they get the chance, move into houses just like house mice and attempt to live around humans and take advantage of the free food source. The first WC sugar gliders were probably very stressed by their enforced close human contact.
It is also wrong to assume that just because sugar gliders will imprint on humans that they are of a lower intelligence. Imprinting actually shows a higher intelligence and a need to bond and learn from what would be other sugar gliders in the wild.


The reality as I’ve already said is that everything starts out as a wild living species and a few are collected and bred from to create captive bred animals. As time goes on more will be taken from the wild to increase genetic diversity which is usually low in an initial limited captive population. The advantages of all this is that in the event of something happening to the wild population we should have captive animals with the potential to be used for restocking. 
Imagine if instead of eating them, some one had thought to keep and breed a few Do-do’s. Instead of only seeing them as pictures in books we could all have been keeping them as pets now and some could have been put back into the wild.

Once again sorry if you find this upsetting but I deal in the real world not the anthropomorphic one where the wild is a wonderful place and captivity is bad.

Natrix


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

sarahc said:


> no but I have read up on them as I do like them a lot.It's the varocious appetite that puts me off and they sound pretty feisty.They seem a lot more demanding and specialised .If I came across one/some in need I'd give it a go.


I think demanding is a good discription. Unlike rodents they never seem to sleep or rest. When ever you look in the cage they are on the move, nose twitching and head going from side to side. They show no fear but also don't seem to get tame either and will happily try to eat your finger at the same speed as they will tackle a mealworm. They will also tackle a fully grown locust which is twice their size a feat that has to be seen to be believed.

Natrix


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

EdGeorge said:


> I'm still wanting to give breeding a go.
> 
> I have some one keeping a look out for some more rescue mice for me.
> 
> At the end of the day I don't want to trap any wild ones but saving them from the cats is a more rewarding way.


Where abouts are you? I do get the occasional slightly sucked one from the cat and their are loads hanging about in the hedge rows around my garden. 

Natrix


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## tomwilson (Feb 27, 2010)

Natrix said:


> I’m sorry if what I’ve said has upset you but the point that I am trying to get across is that the removal of a few wood mice from the wild is no better or worse than the removal of any other species including sugar gliders or indeed any of the animals listed at the bottom of your post in your signature including the two yellow bellied sliders that would of been collected from a controlled pond in America as captive farmed hatchlings.
> 
> To try and say that sugar gliders actually make a better candidate for captivity than a wild mouse actually goes against what most would think. When compared to a mouse, sugar gliders are more evolved, are more specialised (live up trees) and show a higher level of social interaction. These are all pointers that would suggest that the initial wild caught animals, when placed in a cage at ground level would have had a larger amount of adapting to do than a mouse that lives a more basic on the ground life style with less social hierarchy. There is also the fact that as far as I’m aware sugar gliders do not naturally encroach on human habitation where as wood mice will, if they get the chance, move into houses just like house mice and attempt to live around humans and take advantage of the free food source. The first WC sugar gliders were probably very stressed by their enforced close human contact.
> It is also wrong to assume that just because sugar gliders will imprint on humans that they are of a lower intelligence. Imprinting actually shows a higher intelligence and a need to bond and learn from what would be other sugar gliders in the wild.
> ...


first thing in red i said could not that i do as for the second thing you seem to asume that i do which i don't. also most of the problems you list with sugar gliders would infact purely be bad husbandy


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

tomwilson said:


> first thing in red i said could not that i do


Sorry I don't know if I'm reading this wrong but I don't understand what you mean



tomwilson said:


> as for the second thing you seem to asume that i do which i don't.


No I just said that I didn't.



tomwilson said:


> also most of the problems you list with sugar gliders would infact purely be bad husbandy


No, I'm talking about the extreme difference between taking a social animal that lives up a tree in a family group away from humans and putting it in a cage at ground level without it's family and sarrounded by humans and taking a solitary animal that lives at ground level and is known to live close to humans by choice and putting it in a cage on it's own at ground level and sarrounded by humans. 

Remember I don't have a problem with taking animals from the wild. My original point was that you can't happily keep one species that was originally taken from the wild and then get upset about some one else taking another species from the wild to do exactly the same thing. 

Natrix


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Have to feel a bit sorry for a healthy WILD animal being kept captive for human pleasure.

Plenty of mice already domesticated if you want to keep and breed them. Why stress out more wild mice when you could start off with already domesticated ones?

Just dont see the point personally. Poor little thing.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

LisaLQ said:


> Have to feel a bit sorry for a healthy WILD animal being kept captive for human pleasure.
> 
> Plenty of mice already domesticated if you want to keep and breed them. Why stress out more wild mice when you could start off with already domesticated ones?
> 
> Just dont see the point personally. Poor little thing.




Get a grip.
It would be dead by now if we had have left it to the cat.

How many die being chased by all sorts of preds?
Consider this one a lucky one.

If you feel that badly about the poor mice have a look closer to home...........lab mice, go and save them from pain and torture.

Oh and Mowse says hiya. x


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Crikey, that's a grown up argument. Wow, you told me.

How's about you go pick up a couple of foxes, stick them on a lead and say you're going to breed from them?


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

LisaLQ said:


> Crikey, that's a grown up argument. Wow, you told me.
> 
> How's about you go pick up a couple of foxes, stick them on a lead and say you're going to breed from them?


And if he did, would you be happy to buy the captive bred off spring?

That basically is what you have done to obtain all the animals you have on your list.

Natrix


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

LisaLQ said:


> Crikey, that's a grown up argument. Wow, you told me.
> 
> How's about you go pick up a couple of foxes, stick them on a lead and say you're going to breed from them?



Lisa, how long do you think this mouse will live in the wild?
Comapare that to how long it will live in captitivity?

Do you think I'm causing it to suffer?

But just think how good it would be if I could get a captive bred programme going.
I could be the first person in the world to collect a wild animal and make pets from it.

;-)


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

EdGeorge said:


> Lisa, how long do you think this mouse will live in the wild?
> Comapare that to how long it will live in captitivity?
> 
> Do you think I'm causing it to suffer?
> ...


Whilst I agree that you have saved this little girl from suffering in the wild, and you are a good person to save her from a potentially painful death by a predator or illness / injury, I do not agree with the idea of a captive breeding programme. This mouse was lucky, and you're lucky to have what seems like a very docile, tame specimen. Others may not be like this and it's unfair to put them through such stresses to create yet another domesticated species of mouse, of which there are already plenty of different species and breeds to choose from. We may be able to domesticate them but that doesn't mean we SHOULD.


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Do you mind if i ask WHY you want to breed from her? 
For me personally i think you did a great thing by saving her, and she looks a sweet little thing, but why not just keep her as a pet?


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

spirit975 said:


> Do you mind if i ask WHY you want to breed from her?
> For me personally i think you did a great thing by saving her, and she looks a sweet little thing, but why not just keep her as a pet?


^^ This.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Ophexis said:


> Whilst I agree that you have saved this little girl from suffering in the wild, and you are a good person to save her from a potentially painful death by a predator or illness / injury, I do not agree with the idea of a captive breeding programme. This mouse was lucky, and you're lucky to have what seems like a very docile, tame specimen. Others may not be like this and it's unfair to put them through such stresses to create yet another domesticated species of mouse, of which there are already plenty of different species and breeds to choose from. We may be able to domesticate them but that doesn't mean we SHOULD.


What animals do you keep?
Where did the start before you wanted to have one as a pet?



spirit975 said:


> Do you mind if i ask WHY you want to breed from her?
> For me personally i think you did a great thing by saving her, and she looks a sweet little thing, but why not just keep her as a pet?


I would like to breed because it would be interesting.
Taking animals from the wild has gone on for years to provide pets for people like you and millions of others, why not another mouse breed?

I hardly think me taking a few from the wild is going to be a problem unless you are hypocritical. 

Have you thought how many animals are taken from the wild and just kept directly as pets?
My aim is to have a captive bred programme and therefore no need to take animals from the wild.

Do you understand what I'm saying?


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

I must admit, that i would like a field mouse as a pet, there super cute! Did you have trouble taming it up? And for people that think it's cruel to keep one alive and healthy in a set up, because you care for these animals then stop keeping cats as pets.


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

EdGeorge said:


> What animals do you keep?
> Where did the start before you wanted to have one as a pet?


As people have already said on this thread, there are some animals who are better candidates for domestication. Dogs for example came to US. Cats... well cats are a difficult one, they can be very awkward. Fish I think are an exception - they are not domesticated in a sense that dumping them in the wild would make them reliant on humans but they ARE kept in smaller environments than in the wild, and they don't form attachments to people for the most part.
But the behaviour this rescued mouse is exhibiting is rare in a wild animal. Relish it and keep her as a pet. There is no need to breed from her; she will be happy living out the rest of her days being waited on hand and foot.


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## JPP (Jun 8, 2009)

let it go
if it gets eaten
thats jsut nature : victory:


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

_TiMiSdRuNk_ said:


> I must admit, that i would like a field mouse as a pet, there super cute! Did you have trouble taming it up? And for people that think it's cruel to keep one alive and healthy in a set up, because you care for these animals then stop keeping cats as pets.



It has been hand tame since day one.
Never struggled, bitten and always comes to me when I pick her up.

What amazes me is the number of comments about me not wanting me to breed her.
Why, people have been doing it for years?

How about if I get some rare snake of inscect and do the same?
Or should we not keep ANY animals as pets.?

At the end of the day I would not be breaking any rules, laws or whatever and maybe if it works I'll be giving something new for the pets collectors out there.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

JPP said:


> let it go
> if it gets eaten
> thats jsut nature : victory:



Sounds like a good idea, well done.


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

EdGeorge said:


> What animals do you keep?
> Where did the start before you wanted to have one as a pet?
> 
> 
> ...


But where has this aim to have a captive bred programme come from? What is it's purpose other than interest? They're not an endangered species and there are loads of mouse species already in the pet market. I understand what you are saying about all animals initially being taken from the wild, but most have been domesticated for hundreds if not thousands of years. I really don't see the point. You saved her, you kept her, why not just appreciate her instead of turning her into a "programme" that really isn't needed? I could catch some sparrows tomorrow and start breeding them but i much prefer nature to be where it is supposed to be if at all possible. Animals already domesticated are different because they're already domesticated, if i let my pets roam free they wouldn't stand much of a chance now, it's not possible to reintroduce them into their natural environments, but given that chance, if i was in the position to make a choice i would choose to leave nature alone.


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

EdGeorge said:


> What amazes me is the number of comments about me not wanting me to breed her.
> Why, people have been doing it for years?


Listen, I think that if the mouse is 100% content in living with you now, there's no harm in keeping her a pet.
Yes, it is better than letting her free only for her to be gobbled by the first cat she crosses paths with.

However, you don't seem to understand WHY people are discouraging breeding from her.

In the past, when animals were taken from the wild to be bred in captivity the people doing it had a purpose. They planned to breed these animals whether for medicine, as companions, it doesn't matter. The point is, they had a reason to do what they did and they had at least some idea of what they were doing. Taking a wild animal, which you didn't even know the_ species_ of when you found it, and deciding on a whim that it might be a lark to breed it and sell the results is something else. You only want to breed her to sell the offspring - you made this clear when you asked if there was a market for wood mice. Selling a few baby mice won't net you much cash you know. Which makes breeding for profit utterly pointless. Anyone who breeds mice for a _purpose_, be it snake food or as pets, can tell you that.

So let's say you breed her. Without knowing her history. Any illnesses she might be prone to. What happens when you encounter a problem? Say she has difficulty giving birth (again, mouse breeders can attest to this, mice die in childbirth all too often). Will you shell out for the vet to save her life? Or will you let her die, thus ending your project? Ah well, it was worth a try. What if her babies are aggressive and can't be handled as well as she can? Will you try to sell them on or will you cull them? Are you prepared to make/buy separate enclosures for any unwanted babies (there isn't much of a market for wood mice)? Will you have enough space to separate males from females - obviously it would be rather cruel and irresponsible to expect her to give birth to litter after litter for you. Especially when you appear to care for her so much.

I'm not for moment suggesting that you have not or would not consider any of the above. But you seem to think that this breeding project is both easy and worthwhile. Breeding for any reason is serious business, and definitely not something you should take up just because the opportunity crops up. You need time, patience, far more money than you'd think and far more knowledge than you have. (In the area of wood mice, that wasn't intended as an insult!)

Like everyone else, I really wish that you would reconsider breeding this mouse for the reasons you've given. Obviously no one can stop you. Not the law, not the users of RFUK. But the fact that nothing's stopping you isn't exactly the best reason to breed her either, is it?


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

Luxy said:


> Listen, I think that if the mouse is 100% content in living with you now, there's no harm in keeping her a pet.
> Yes, it is better than letting her free only for her to be gobbled by the first cat she crosses paths with.
> 
> However, you don't seem to understand WHY people are discouraging breeding from her.
> ...


:notworthy:


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Luxy said:


> Listen, I think that if the mouse is 100% content in living with you now, there's no harm in keeping her a pet.
> Yes, it is better than letting her free only for her to be gobbled by the first cat she crosses paths with.
> 
> However, you don't seem to understand WHY people are discouraging breeding from her.
> ...


I think this should win a prize for the biggest load of tosh ever posted.
You are on a web site where half the members keep WC animals and those that are CB have been in captivity for less than half a decade. 
The UK see's almost weekly imports of WC stock and people buy them mostly with the intention of breeding from them.

We are talking about a non endangered pest species not a ruddy Dodo. A dozen of these things have been killed by poisons and traps while I've been writing this.
Please get real! This is a mouse not a human child.
If the OP wants to keep and breed from this mouse, he has the same rights to as you do to keep what ever it is you incarcerate in your cages.

Natrix


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

Aggressive much? You don't seem to be able to argue a point without getting over excited and cranky Natrix. Perhaps all you need is a cookie and and a nap? Maybe then you'll be able to come back and state your case in a civil manner. Then again, maybe you'll see this post as a reason to launch an all-out offensive. I'm guessing it'll be the latter...

I thought you made your case already anyway. Several times in fact. Maybe you might be polite enough to allow someone else give the OP their opinion without tearing strips off them.




Natrix said:


> I think this should win a prize for the biggest load of tosh ever posted.
> You are on a web site where half the members keep WC animals and those that are CB have been in captivity for less than half a decade.
> The UK see's almost weekly imports of WC stock and people buy them mostly with the intention of breeding from them.
> 
> ...


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

LisaLQ said:


> How's about you go pick up a couple of foxes, stick them on a lead and say you're going to breed from them?


You can a do that, The silver fox, That is a red fox color mutation: victory:.You can get tame foxes and that from only 50 years of selective captive breeding.Domesticated silver fox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So with mice is can be done in a farless time, At the mintue they would be worth a grate deal, If any thing. But after about ( X )amount of generations down the line EdGeorge may get a color mutation, Then you deffo have your wood mouse market.


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Th other thing to consider is what will you do if you find a male mouse and they have babies? Do you intend to keep bloodlines as pure as possible by catching a mouse of the opposite sex to each of the babies? If the 3 generation rule applies you could have hundreds before they're legally saleable, and each time you bring in a wild mouse the generational thing will have to start over. Sounds more like a mouse farm than what was originally "a pet mouse."

At the end of the day you have opinions here, but those opinions are representative of your market. I personally think you'd find it difficult to give them away let alone sell them.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Luxy said:


> Listen,How can I listen, I'm reading. I think that if the mouse is 100% content in living with you now, there's no harm in keeping her a pet. Agreed but why just leave it there when she could be the first of an new trend?
> Yes, it is better than letting her free only for her to be gobbled by the first cat she crosses paths with. It's not just cats that take mice in the wild.
> 
> However, you don't seem to understand WHY people are discouraging breeding from her. People breed mice, why not?
> ...


I hope you can understand my answers.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

spirit975 said:


> Th other thing to consider is what will you do if you find a male mouse and they have babies? Do you intend to keep bloodlines as pure as possible by catching a mouse of the opposite sex to each of the babies? If the 3 generation rule applies you could have hundreds before they're legally saleable, and each time you bring in a wild mouse the generational thing will have to start over. Sounds more like a mouse farm than what was originally "a pet mouse."
> 
> At the end of the day you have opinions here, but those opinions are representative of your market. I personally think you'd find it difficult to give them away let alone sell them.


That is the plan, I realise a male and female will be needed.

The bloodlines will be kept as near to nature as possible, sibblings mate in the wild, maybe you didn't know that.

What laws are there that would affect me selling the offspring?

Mouse farm, wake up and see how many peole breed mice, rats, and other rodents just to feed snakes.
I can't see herp keepers moaning about that.

How many people buy mice?
I'm sure they would be interested.


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

EdGeorge said:


> I hope you can understand my answers.


Some of your answers are darn right selfish and narrow-minded.
A new trend? That is NOT a viable reason when there are plenty of different species of mouse already out there, that have been bred for pets. People will go with what they know.
Using the resulting offspring as snake food? That would make the breeding utterly pointless and putting her through unnecessary stress, when there are domesticated mice already out there being bred for that purpose. There is no need for you to be breeding a wild caught animal, which COULD WELL be carrying dangerous, possibly HEREDITARY diseases that could kill or at least make a snake very unwell if it ingested any resulting offspring.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Ophexis said:


> Some of your answers are darn right selfish and narrow-minded.
> A new trend? That is NOT a viable reason when there are plenty of different species of mouse already out there, that have been bred for pets. People will go with what they know.
> Using the resulting offspring as snake food? That would make the breeding utterly pointless and putting her through unnecessary stress, when there are domesticated mice already out there being bred for that purpose. There is no need for you to be breeding a wild caught animal, which COULD WELL be carrying dangerous, possibly HEREDITARY diseases that could kill or at least make a snake very unwell if it ingested any resulting offspring.



So do wild snakes do a health check on it's dinner?
What do mouse breeders do with surplus males and unwanted mice?

People will always want something new, read the forums when a new morph appears in the hobby, they all want one.

She is not going to be used as a breeding machine, sure it's only natural for a mouse to breed or have I missed something?

If it make you feel better I'll just bin the ones I don't want.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

*Ophexis.
Just noticed, you want a male crestie, how much do you want to pay?
I may have one for you.
*


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

EdGeorge said:


> So do wild snakes do a health check on it's dinner?


And that's one of the factors that can cause death in wild snakes - diseased prey.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Ophexis said:


> And that's one of the factors that can cause death in wild snakes - diseased prey.



Ok, I'll just bin the ones I don't need, thanks for your help and advice towards my breeding plans.


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

EdGeorge said:


> *Ophexis.
> Just noticed, you want a male crestie, how much do you want to pay?
> I may have one for you.
> *


Of course you do. Your sarcasm and leading questions do nothing.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Ophexis said:


> Of course you do. Your sarcasm and leading questions do nothing.



I'm serious, I do have a male crestie I'm thinking of selling.

I really thought you were giving me advice.


It's not WC but I'm sure his ancestors were.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

EdGeorge said:


> I'll just bin the ones I don't want.


If you get any that aren't showing any tame traits, You can just set them free in the woods:no1:. Of course if you color mutations you wouldn't be able to set them free, But by that time i'd think you would start getting some intrest in them at that point.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

gazz said:


> If you get any that aren't showing any tame traits, You can just set them free in the woods:no1:. Of course if you color mutations you wouldn't be able to set them free, But by that time i'd think you would start getting some intrest in them at that point.



I wouldn't bin them really, I just give them to the cats to play with.

;-)


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

EdGeorge said:


> That is the plan, I realise a male and female will be needed.
> 
> The bloodlines will be kept as near to nature as possible, sibblings mate in the wild, maybe you didn't know that.
> 
> ...


Yes dear, i'm sure you realised you needed a male to breed with but you haven't caught him yet have you...hence the if! Maybe i should have written that in more simple terms!

With hundreds of mice roaming a small area it's pretty unlikely they would mate with a dirct sibling. Sure, maybe they would but more likely not.

Mouse farm? I am awake thankyou, unless i'm seriously talented and able to typw in my sleep. If you are happy to compare your "breeding programme" with a feeder mouse farm then fair enough, i thought you intended them to be for the pet trade. My mistake.

You pretty obviously haven't thought this through. Best of luck to you. I just feel sorry for the mouse, she didn't last as a cute little pet for long did she? You're no longer satisfied with saving her and keeping her safe, she has to have a purpose.

Why bother asking for opions when you just make feeble attempts at insulting everyone who doesn't say what you want to hear? You've obviously already made up your mind.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

spirit975 said:


> Yes dear, i'm sure you realised you needed a male to breed with but you haven't caught him yet have you...hence the if! Maybe i should have written that in more simple terms!
> 
> With hundreds of mice roaming a small area it's pretty unlikely they would mate with a dirct sibling. Sure, maybe they would but more likely not.
> 
> ...



Do you not breed from you pet snakes?

My breeding would be an attempt to provide another type of mouse for the market.
Just like all the others out there.

Why not a wood mouse?

Also giving her the chance to breed would be more natural for her than keeping her alone or just with females.

I'm not thinking £ signs here, if I was I'd be messing with reptile genetics.

It's just an option at the moment but hopefully I will manage to get this breeding plan together.

Finding a male shouldn't be a problem, the cats are always on the hunt.


Why is it that people can cross breed and alter animals for the pet trade and people accept it and I get jumped on for doing less?


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

Luxy said:


> Listen,_How can I listen, I'm reading_


This is one of those witty little retorts that has me just rolling around the floor laughing. I wish I could come up with these zingers! To be honest though, I already saw what I wrote, so I didn't read further than this when it was quoted to me.

Listen..
Oh, I'm sorry..
I mean *read*.
Do you understand now?
Good boy.

You originally posed your question because you did not know what to do. Plenty of people with FAR more experience than you answered. Some of their advice fitted in with your plans. Some didn't. So now you're picking at the ones who don't condone your plans with the most tragically awkward use of sarcasm I've ever seen. Case in point;



Luxy said:


> Listen,_How can I listen, I'm reading_


You got your advice. I don't suggest anyone else spend any more time with this question, EdGeorge has made up his mind. Besides, he'll only shoot down your replies with intelligent remarks like;



Luxy said:


> Listen,_How can I listen, I'm reading_


 
That showed me, eh? :blush:

Most of those reading this will know to avoid you in the future.
I know I will.
Bye!


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

EdGeorge said:


> Do you not breed from you pet snakes?


Yes i do, but as i said previously there is no way i can put them back in the wild is there? If i could i'd much prefer to see them in their natural habitats. Doesn't mean i'm going to go out and catch grass snakes and try to breed them. I know animals are taken from the wild, i'm not disputing that, but i don't agree with it. You asked for opinions and i have given mine, there is no need to get defensive over it!


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

spirit975 said:


> Yes i do, but as i said previously there is no way i can put them back in the wild is there? If i could i'd much prefer to see them in their natural habitats. Doesn't mean i'm going to go out and catch grass snakes and try to breed them. I know animals are taken from the wild, i'm not disputing that, but i don't agree with it. You asked for opinions and i have given mine, there is no need to get defensive over it!



Ok, I understand what you are saying.

But from my side of things pet breeding has to start some where.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Luxy said:


> This is one of those witty little retorts that has me just rolling around the floor laughing. *edited to get to the point*


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/domestic-exotics-classifieds/505078-harvest-mice-wanted.html

I may be able to sort some wood mice out if you are interested. ;-)


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Luxy said:


> Aggressive much? You don't seem to be able to argue a point without getting over excited and cranky Natrix. Perhaps all you need is a cookie and and a nap? Maybe then you'll be able to come back and state your case in a civil manner. Then again, maybe you'll see this post as a reason to launch an all-out offensive. I'm guessing it'll be the latter...
> 
> I thought you made your case already anyway. Several times in fact. Maybe you might be polite enough to allow someone else give the OP their opinion without tearing strips off them.


Luxy

I’m sorry that you find the reality of the real world upsetting but you are the one that has chosen to come to a web site inhabited by people who breed animals and started lecturing them relentlessly on why they shouldn’t breed their animals based on your anthropomorphic ideologies. And yes I know at this point you will probably deny any links to the fluffy world of anthropomorphism but your post strongly suggests otherwise.

People haven’t only taken animals from the wild to breed in the past. They do it now, every day and for exactly the same reasons as they did in the past. They whish to produce new animals with a commercial potential to be used as companion animals or food etc. There are people all around the world working with different species right now. Some will amount to nothing others will be the pets of the future just like fifty years ago the first Syrian hamsters like the ones you keep appeared in captivity and far more recently your African pygmy dormice first appeared.

Everything has to start as a wild caught animal, there is no other way of beginning with a new species. To attack those that dare to put in the extra effort to get those new species started so that less able keepers like your self can buy the carefully adjusted offspring is offensive to say the least. 

Your list of reasons for not breeding are a joke. Every single reason can be dealt with (and has been dealt with) using basic husbandry. Things can go wrong in a breeding cycle that is part of life but to say you must not breed incase something goes wrong is farcical. As for suggesting breeding would cause stress shows a lack of knowledge that is questionable in some one that keeps animals them selves. Are you aware that many species actually get stressed if you prevent them from breeding? Are you also aware that the new animal welfare legislation requires owners to allow their animals every chance to behave in a natural manner? 

Lets assume for a moment that you are right and that the taking of wild animals should stop and that you can choose at what point in history this can begin.
When would you like the ban to start? How about the day before the first Syrian hamster was caught? Would you be happy not to have your hamsters? Or should we make it more recent and stop the catching of the first pygmy dormouse? Then again, what if they catch something that you might want to keep in two years time? Should we bring in the ban for 2012?
The fact is there will always be some desirable animal that will have to be wild caught and bred by some one like Edgeorge so that others like you may have the pleasure of keeping captive bred animals like pygmy jerboas and African pygmy mice in the future. 

Just for the record, I realise that your initial attempt to patronise and belittle me were purely due to you inability to put together a reasoned argument to support your initial post but just so that you know, I promise you that this post has been put together calmly and rationally.

I look forward to your reply

Natrix


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

spirit975 said:


> Yes i do, but as i said previously there is no way i can put them back in the wild is there? If i could i'd much prefer to see them in their natural habitats. Doesn't mean i'm going to go out and catch grass snakes and try to breed them. I know animals are taken from the wild, i'm not disputing that, but i don't agree with it. You asked for opinions and i have given mine, there is no need to get defensive over it!


Wether you agree with wild caught or not all your pets are only here because some one went and caught their ancestors and bred from them. To say you don't agree with wild caught but then keep pets is contradictory to say the least.

By the way, Grass snakes _Natrix natrix_ is one of the species I specialise in. In the next few days my youngest grass snake will be laying eggs. This will be the third generation I have achieved from my initial wild caught animals. All my grass snakes are well adjusted and probably more tame than my corn snakes. 

Natrix


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Natrix said:


> Wether you agree with wild caught or not all your pets are only here because some one went and caught their ancestors and bred from them. To say you don't agree with wild caught but then keep pets is contradictory to say the least.


Yes, you're right, i have my dogs due to humans domesticating them thousands of years ago...are you suggesting that if i didn't buy them that the breeder would have released them back into their natural habitats? Is that what you suggest i do? My post merely stated that if i had the chance to change things i would, do i have that chance? No unfortunately i do not. I could go out and catch a grass snake if i wanted but i prefer to see them where they are now. That is my choice and my opinion as per asked for by the op.



> By the way, Grass snakes _Natrix natrix_ is one of the species I specialise in. In the next few days my youngest grass snake will be laying eggs. This will be the third generation I have achieved from my initial wild caught animals. *All my grass snakes are well adjusted and probably more tame than my corn snakes. *
> 
> Natrix


I have not suggested otherwise.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

spirit975 said:


> Yes, you're right, i have my dogs due to humans domesticating them thousands of years ago...are you suggesting that if i didn't buy them that the breeder would have released them back into their natural habitats? Is that what you suggest i do? My post merely stated that if i had the chance to change things i would, do i have that chance? No unfortunately i do not. I could go out and catch a grass snake if i wanted but i prefer to see them where they are now. That is my choice and my opinion as per asked for by the op.
> 
> I have not suggested otherwise.


 
No I’m not suggesting that you put your dogs back into the wild. What I’m trying to explain to you is that if some unknown person hadn’t gone to the bother of taking what was probably young wolf pups from their mother a few thousand years ago, you would not have the pleasure of owning your dogs now. 
You do not list the animals you keep but in your profile under Interests you say "_Animals, Reptiles! My house is like a zoo_!" and under Reptile & Exotic Pets you state "_Too many to list!"_ 
History tells us that up until very recently the number of domesticated animals kept by humans was quiet small and consisted of dogs, cats, song birds and horses along with a selection of palatable animals such as sheep, cattle, pigs and poultry. Now assuming that your profile is not referring to a small farm complex my guess is that you have a selection of the modern popular companion animals such as lizards, snakes, rodents and small birds. All of these are very recent recruits to the list of animals kept by humans and most have only been around since the end of world war two. This would suggest that you owe the bulk of the pleasure that you get from keeping animals to people that have gone out and collected wild animals to breed from in the last fify to sixty years. Not the several thousand years that you hide behind with your dogs.

Please don’t get me wrong here. I’m not saying that you personally have to go out and wrestle a large snake to the ground and take it home and breed it. What I am trying to get across to you is that if it was not for the great work done by people like Edgeorge, people like yourself would not have the pleasure of keeping the animals that you do keep. 
You can not happily go about your hobby and interests telling yourself that you have a clear conscience just because you personally did not keep the initial WC animals while attacking those that did. Your need for pets CB or not is reliant on these people making your attitude to them totally inappropriate. 

The animal rights brigade use the phrase _If your not part of the cure, you are part of the problem._ While I don’t particularly like the AR mind set, I do feel this phrase is rather appropriate to this situation. 

Natrix


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Very well worded Gordon and thank you for the support.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

EdGeorge said:


> Very well worded Gordon and thank you for the support.


Glad to have been of assistance.

I notice that despite having both been on line several times since my replies there have been no replies from either of our friends. What a shame.

Gordon


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Natrix said:


> Glad to have been of assistance.
> 
> I notice that despite having both been on line several times since my replies there have been no replies from either of our friends. What a shame.
> 
> Gordon


 Perhaps they now realise the importance of breeding from w/c and it's way forward. My idea to breed wood mice has certainly sparked a reaction and has opened the eyes of others I'm sure. Captive breeding should and will go on as long as we have an interest in animals. The only thing that will stop this is the anti pet brigade such as PETA, I'm sure they won't have their way, not in my lifetime anyhow.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

How is Mowse doing? I rescued an amazing adult wood mouse off the neighbour cat, she was a bit stunned but once recovered very wild so I released her in nearby woods. She had a beautiful orangey brown coat and huge ears:flrt:

ETA I think she was a wood mouse but her colour was amazing(very harvest mouse colored but to big to be one)


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

for me it's not so much an issue of how many generations have been kept in captivity but how many of a creatures needs can be adequately met.Some animals,whales,dolphins,polar bears not even in zoos.Others such as monkeys only in zoos or in the hands of specialists.I'm still not over watching the obscene programm 'my childs a monkey'.The monkeys were captive bred but their lives were awful.I'd like to shoot those 'monkey moms'.Parrots get a raw deal as well.Field mice can easily have their needs met compared to many animals.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Shell195 said:


> How is Mowse doing? I rescued an amazing adult wood mouse off the neighbour cat, she was a bit stunned but once recovered very wild so I released her in nearby woods. She had a beautiful orangey brown coat and huge ears:flrt:
> 
> ETA I think she was a wood mouse but her colour was amazing(very harvest mouse colored but to big to be one)


 Mowse is doing fine, still tame. Could do with getting her a mate soon. Need to get this breeding plan under way. Not sure how many generations it would take to get a pet wood mouse but it will be a quicker job than taming the wolf. :-D


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

sarahc said:


> for me it's not so much an issue of how many generations have been kept in captivity but how many of a creatures needs can be adequately met.Some animals,whales,dolphins,polar bears not even in zoos.Others such as monkeys only in zoos or in the hands of specialists.I'm still not over watching the obscene programm 'my childs a monkey'.The monkeys were captive bred but their lives were awful.I'd like to shoot those 'monkey moms'.Parrots get a raw deal as well.Field mice can easily have their needs met compared to many animals.


 I'm sure they can be met Sarah, look at the weird and wonderful rodents that do well in captivity. I'm sure Mowse will love being a pioneer to the cause. ;-)


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

EdGeorge said:


> Mowse is doing fine, still tame. Could do with getting her a mate soon. Need to get this breeding plan under way. *Not sure how many generations it would take to get a pet wood mouse,* But it will be a quicker job than taming the wolf. :-D


*Domestic fox.*

In 1959, the Soviet Union had adopted the official science of Lysenkoism, driving the study of genetics underground. Dmitri Belyaev was a geneticist with Department of Fur Animal Breeding at the Central Research Laboratory of Fur Breeding in Moscow, but with the rise of Lysenkoism, he was fired from this position. In 1959, he took a position at the Institute for Cytology (later the Institute for Cytology and Genetics) at Novosibirsk.
*The Fox Farm Experiment*​ 
In his new position, Belyaev began a new experiment. Traditional accounts of domestication suggested that humans selected animals for increased reproduction, tameness, and unusual coloration simultaneously. Belyaev thought that it was impossible for humans in the Stone Age and in the early days of agriculture to select for so many traits. He thought that it had to be a selection for tameness alone that eventually yielded all of these characteristics.
He thought that this was particularly true for dogs, which had evolved from wolves. Dogs are far less aggressive towards each other and towards their human handlers than captive imprinted wolves. However, in order to find out if selecting for tameness alone was the case for the dog, there were certain problems. Dogs and wolves interbreed, and while it is an uncommon occurrence now, it probably happened a great deal as dogs became domesticated. Wolves and dogs had “polluted” each other’s genome, so it was probably better to try another species.
Because Belyaev had experience with genetics of fur farm animals, he decided to use the silver fox in his experiments. Silver foxes are actually red foxes that have a black coat that is usually tipped with silver. This color phase occurs in North America in the wild, but in captivity it has been reproduced as a specific fur variety.
*Selection Criteria*​ 
Belyaev’s team selected foxes for their breeding program on whether the animals exhibited the lowest amounts of fear and avoidance behavior before humans. 130 foxes were chosen from many different fur farms throughout the Soviet Union. These foxes were then bred to each other. Although these foxes had been bred for many generations in captivity, they were not tame animals. The foxes still had the behavior of a wild fox, which seeks to avoid humans at all costs. Most of these foxes on fur farms exhibited a great deal of fear of humans. These 130 were just slightly less likely to run from humans than the typical silver fox population ​ 
Only the tamest animals from each generation were allowed to breed. Inbreeding was intentionally kept at a minimum within the population, just to make sure that it was selection for tameness alone that was being tested. *By the tenth generation, nearly twenty percent of all foxes were friendly and quite tame. As the experiment continued, something else began to happen. By generations eight and ten, the foxes started developing spots. Some of them were even marked like border collies. Some foxes developed shorter legs and tails than the wild type, while others had tails that curled over their backs. Even more unusually, a few vixens had estrus cycles longer than normal, and a few also had estrus cycles twice a year. All of these traits are traits of domestic animals.*
*Selection of Tameness Alone Yielded These Changes*​ 
Belyaev’s hypothesis was supported in this experiment that selection for tameness alone led to the unusual coloration and coats in domestic animals as well as their increased reproduction. Although genetics was not an accepted science in the Soviet Union in the 1950s, Belyaev’s experiment showed that genetic selection for tameness could also select for other genes as well. It also showed that domestication could be a rather quick process, and that Stone Age people could have potentially created genetically tame wolves within a the truncated lifespan of a person of that time. These findings greatly shape how we understand the domestication process.​ 
So with mice this should potentially happen a fair bit earlyer than 10th generation. With mice breeding age being earlyer, And life span 2-3 year.​


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Natrix said:


> Glad to have been of assistance.
> 
> I notice that despite having both been on line several times since my replies there have been no replies from either of our friends. What a shame.
> 
> Gordon


I assume that was referring to me? Alas i have more important things to do at the moment.
Yes i do have many animals and they give me much enjoyment. The way i'm looking at it is that if pets had not been "domesticated" i wouldn't miss them, as they would never have been available. People will never miss being able to have a wild type mouse as a pet if it never happens. I certainly wouldn't be sitting here thinking how much i'd like to have these animals under my roof, i'd be admiring them in the wild. I don't agree with how animals were captured from the wild and bred but nothing can change it, we make the best of it because they're available and we now cannot change that. My friend was conceived after a rape incident. I don't agree with how she was put on this earth but that doesn't mean i shouldn't enjoy her companionship now...get what i'm saying?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Just read the whole thread - phew!

Firstly, why would anyone want to buy this species of mouse as a pet? Domestic fancy mice look similar, but come in loads of colours, & include hairless. I can understand why people would have Harvest Mice as they are interesting, climbers, & look different to fancy mice. But I can't see much of a market for what you have.

Also, proper mouse breeders have 1 buck running with 3 does, so no 1 doe is continually pestered by the buck. So if you wanted to breed properly & humanely, you would have to get 2 more females plus a male.


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## southpython (Feb 18, 2010)

I have 2 field mice, here my story.

At work i found 2 pinkys, they were cold and the bird were trying to eat them.

I looked around for eny other ice but there were no apart from a few eaten pinkys

so i took the 2 pinkys ( 1 day old or soo ) and put them in with a prego mouse mother.

They are doing great and i will be keeping them as pets, if i left them then they would have died and i didnt want that.

Maybe you should have let that one go ? it would be fine outside where it lives.

But now you have her id leave her.

( there will be more once i go next week which the birds have been eating and i will take those aswell and if you want id give them to you to keep with yours. ( although if i find them warm, or with a mother and there in no danger then they will be left)


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> Just read the whole thread - phew!
> 
> Firstly, why would anyone want to buy this species of mouse as a pet? Domestic fancy mice look similar, but come in loads of colours, & include hairless. I can understand why people would have Harvest Mice as they are interesting, climbers, & look different to fancy mice. But I can't see much of a market for what you have.
> 
> Also, proper mouse breeders have 1 buck running with 3 does, so no 1 doe is continually pestered by the buck. So if you wanted to breed properly & humanely, you would have to get 2 more females plus a male.


 I know the ratios for breeding mice, I have quite a few I use for snake food. You say people wouldn't be interested? What about all the other far from domesticated animals people keep? The fancy mouse started somewhere, along with Harvest mice, Spiny mice.....................the list goes on. If I can only find one male and no more females I will use the male to get my first litter. I can work from there. ;-)


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

One thing I will say about this thread/debate/discussion/whatever is that it's been a pleasure to read something so grammatically comprehensible!


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

pippainnit said:


> One thing I will say about this thread/debate/discussion/whatever is that it's been a pleasure to read something so grammatically comprehensible!


 And you have posted a very nice comment, thank you. I will admit this discussion is quite interesting and a pleasure to be involved with. I see a lot of threads falling down the same hole full of aggression and abuse. We should get an award for the most civil and comprehensive threat on RFUK. LOL


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

pippainnit said:


> One thing I will say about this thread/debate/discussion/whatever is that it's been a pleasure to read something so grammatically comprehensible!


:no1:


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

pippainnit said:


> One thing I will say about this thread/debate/discussion/whatever is that it's been a pleasure to read something so grammatically comprehensible!


We is smrt folk, a'ight?!
:lol2:
That pained me to write.
In all honesty I am going to remain where I stand in this thread, but that is not to say that I have not seriously considered what has been said, and taken it all on board. I've just removed myself from the discussion because I'm more interested in what others have to say by this point, as I personally feel there is little more I can do to contribute other than to say I hope things fare well for your sudden ambition, EdGeorge : victory:


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## Issa (Oct 13, 2006)

Amalthea said:


> I know it's the same thing, and maybe I am hypocritical by thinking it's not fair.... If the OP had the room to make a HUGE enclosure so the wild caught parents could have as natural set up as possible, maybe it'd be ok.... *shrugs* I know all pets came from the wild at some point, but that doesn't make it right. I would now go out and get a WC pet. Like I said, I handreared two wild rats last year and the male really did go wild after being completely "tame" with me (and only me).... He was stressed in the cage (even though it was a large cage) and aggressive. And that's from a wild animal that was handreared.... Imagine the stress of one that was caught as an adult, or even past the TEENY baby stage (my wild rats didn't even have their eyes open yet when I got them).


Quick question on the wild rats, how do/did yours compare size-wise to the fancy equivelant?? I managed to aquire a couple of wild pinkies from someone who was working on a building site once and crossed them to my now extinct feeder line. Managed to increase the overall line size significantly.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

Ophexis said:


> We is smrt folk, a'ight?!
> :lol2:
> That pained me to write.
> In all honesty I am going to remain where I stand in this thread, but that is not to say that I have not seriously considered what has been said, and taken it all on board. I've just removed myself from the discussion because I'm more interested in what others have to say by this point, as I personally feel there is little more I can do to contribute other than to say I hope things fare well for your sudden ambition, EdGeorge : victory:


 The only reason it being sudden was because the opportunity sort of fell in to my hand, why turn the chance away? I don't think anyone will be suffering during the course of my trials.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Issa said:


> Quick question on the wild rats, how do/did yours compare size-wise to the fancy equivelant?? I managed to aquire a couple of wild pinkies from someone who was working on a building site once and crossed them to my now extinct feeder line. Managed to increase the overall line size significantly.


 
When I released my male wild rat, Bramble, he was more solid than the other boys and gaining on their size quickly. Bracken, whom I still have, is more muscular than her fancy cagemates and slightly bigger : victory:


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Zoo-Man said:


> Also, proper mouse breeders have 1 buck running with 3 does, so no 1 doe is continually pestered by the buck. So if you wanted to breed properly & humanely, you would have to get 2 more females plus a male.


But fancy mice are house mice, A differant species. 

Wood mice.



> *Behaviour*
> During the winter, they often share nests, with up to four individuals per nest. Male home ranges overlap with those of other wood mice, but during the breeding season, *the females become territorial and defend exclusive ranges*.


So 3 or more females together wouldn't be such a good idea with this species.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

gazz said:


> But fancy mice are house mice, A differant species.
> 
> Wood mice.
> 
> ...


 There ya go, this thread is not only civil and friendly it's informative too. Good tip for getting my programme going. Thanks for that.


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## heather king (Sep 9, 2009)

all i can say is good luck and it would be nice to see how it all goes,it's allways nice too see the start of something new, i love little fluffy thing :flrt:

Hxx


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

EdGeorge said:


> There ya go, this thread is not only civil and friendly it's informative too. Good tip for getting my programme going. Thanks for that.


If you do find the male you need, you will be starting with twice as many animals as they used to get the syrian hamsters started (below). It wasn't until the late eighties that any more were found and used to refreash the gene pool.

_The majority of Syrian hamsters in captivity were captured by Israel Aharoni,_
_On April 12, 1930 Aharoni found a female Syrian hamster and 11 young. Several problems occured with the family, including cannibalism of one of the litter by it's mother which led to the mother being destroyed by it's captors. The remaining pups were hand reared with some losses and two of the hamsters escaping. Four of the litter remained however and survived til adulthood and later successfully were bred in the laboratory. The resulting hamster line was used extensively in laboratories until they were introduced into the British pet market in the 1940s. The first British hamster club was formed in 1945._


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

So pet keeping is quite a new thing historically?


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## thorntons (May 9, 2010)

erm do excuse me but I havent read the whole erm 17 pages is it to this thread?? lol. I just wanted to tell you about my mouse.

Next doors cat brought in a Field mouse and its back legs were damaged by the cat  I kept him for a few days and noticed he wasn't very mobile, around three years on I still have him, he is really friendly and seems OK, he eats hamster/mouse food, If I look back now I wish I had let him go because he doesn't have the life he should stuck in a tank, yet at the time I didnt think he would survive, he is called mr jengles and is a lovely little boy, Id let one go if it didnt have the problems mine has, though I think he is doing well and im happy he is apart of my life . btw he is in my hand now never bites aww.


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## Tink&Chaos (Mar 20, 2010)

Yup, and we took one in the other week that the darn cat had bought back in. Same problem with the back legs. I put it in a kricket keeper tank, and put some of my chinchilla hay in for it to bed down into, a small dish of water, some mini mealworms & bird seed (handy having all these different pets at a time like this!!) Put him/her in a quiet warm room for a couple of days, and the legs seemed to of recoverd  So we were able to release it back into the wild again...and hope it is now living it's life again.
But I would do the same as thorntons in that scenerio....as wouldn't think it would survive had it been left as it was...aww.


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