# Not something you see living wild in England every day...



## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

P.s, Ben W - Please name my frogs...

New colony discovered at a secret site in Dorset... (After a telephone call tonight, these specimens are now being sent to the Zoological Society of London for chytrid testing - Hot topic at the moment i see).


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

Are they leopard frogs? They look like the ones I used to play with in America.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ilovetoads2 said:


> Are they leopard frogs? They look like the ones I used to play with in America.


Very similar Marianne, these are the European equivalent - Pool frogs (Pelophylax lessonae, though until recently they were in the same genus as the pipiens). I was contacted by a friend of mine, David Bird, to go and check out a reported sighting by the general public of 'green frogs' at this particular site. So i decided to have a word with Ben W and make a day of it and this is what we found. It wasn't the nicest of days but we found a fair few subadults and first year adults, also a half eaten overwintering tadpole, and brought these 5 home. I rung Dave this evening to let him know what's what and these guys will be sent to Zoological Society of London to be chytrid tested. The biggest worry with introduced animals (although lessonae are now generally regarded as native) is them passing chytrid onto our established amphibians. Ben discovered a beautiful male GCN (Triturus cristatus) at the site, so it's especially important to make sure all is ok at this particular body of water. You guys are getting the basic ins and outs of the discovery before it's even got back to all the relevant parties (which is why it's important to keep the site secret). 

Cheers, Al

P.s, I might add that these are being kept well away from my collection of European herps, including my already established colony of lessonae... Just to be on the safe side


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

so they are non-native?

an invasive species?

need to round them all up then eh?


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

HABU said:


> so they are non-native?
> 
> an invasive species?
> 
> need to round them all up then eh?


Hello Habu,

Pool frogs are known to be a species that were present in England but became extinct. The last specimens known were found in an area of Norfolk, and the very last animal from that location died a few years back in captivity (I believe it was Charles Snell that had this animal in his care). Swedish Pool frogs, which have been shown to be as close a DNA match as any European locality lessonae to our last native Pool's, have in the last few years been released back to the Norfolk site where it is hoped they will become established again. These particular frogs here in Dorset are a bit of a find. There are known introduced Marsh frogs living in West Dorset, but this Pool frog colony is a complete mystery at the moment. They're obviously there in decent numbers, and will certainly have been there i would say 15 years minimum but other than that it's hard to gauge the full story. Should they be tested positive for chytrid then things could get 'interesting', but hopefully they will get the all clear and be free to carry on their lives basking in the shallow water bodies. Hope this answers your question, cheers Al


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Alex M said:


> Hello Habu,
> 
> Pool frogs are known to be a species that were present in England but became extinct. The last specimens known were found in an area of Norfolk, and the very last animal from that location died a few years back in captivity (I believe it was Charles Snell that had this animal in his care). Swedish Pool frogs, which have been shown to be as close a DNA match as any European locality lessonae to our last native Pool's, have in the last few years been released back to the Norfolk site where it is hoped they will become established again. These particular frogs here in Dorset are a bit of a find. There are known introduced Marsh frogs living in West Dorset, but this Pool frog colony is a complete mystery at the moment. They're obviously there in decent numbers, and will certainly have been there i would say 15 years minimum but other than that it's hard to gauge the full story. Should they be tested positive for chytrid then things could get 'interesting', but hopefully they will get the all clear and be free to carry on their lives basking in the shallow water bodies. Hope this answers your question, cheers Al


 
well this could be very big then!

i hope it all works out and they are them...

yes, sounds very big to me!:2thumb:


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

HABU said:


> well this could be very big then!
> 
> i hope it all works out and they are them...
> 
> yes, sounds very big to me!:2thumb:


I'd be 99.9% certain they were introduced in the last decade or two, perhaps before, but you never know - it would be nice to think that they're a relict population but i very much doubt it. Will be going back very soon to see if there's any other European species there aswell, it maybe someones dumped their collection there - we'll see.


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

Yes it was a good visit mate, we will go again in better weather, and you will know the results of the tests by then.

Want bad to find all the native newts either!!!

As for names, well i didnt know where to start, depends on if they are carriers or not


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

Alex M said:


> Hello Habu,
> 
> Pool frogs are known to be a species that were present in England but became extinct. The last specimens known were found in an area of Norfolk, and the very last animal from that location died a few years back in captivity (I believe it was Charles Snell that had this animal in his care). Swedish Pool frogs, which have been shown to be as close a DNA match as any European locality lessonae to our last native Pool's, have in the last few years been released back to the Norfolk site where it is hoped they will become established again. These particular frogs here in Dorset are a bit of a find. There are known introduced Marsh frogs living in West Dorset, but this Pool frog colony is a complete mystery at the moment. They're obviously there in decent numbers, and will certainly have been there i would say 15 years minimum but other than that it's hard to gauge the full story. Should they be tested positive for chytrid then things could get 'interesting', but hopefully they will get the all clear and be free to carry on their lives basking in the shallow water bodies. Hope this answers your question, cheers Al


Are you 100% they are pool frogs and not edible frogs ? I went to the last known site of native Pool frogs around 15 years ago but they were gone by then. Did you know that it was possibly a well meaning local herpetologist that may have helped get rid of the last native pool frogs, in an attempt to get rid of what he thought were introduced frogs. Ironic. 

Did you also know Alex that I lived a few doors away from Charles Snell for around 16 years ? Yes he had the last native Pool frog, and I had its stunt double.


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## Geomyda (Aug 11, 2008)

Blaptica said:


> Are you 100% they are pool frogs and not edible frogs ? I went to the last known site of native Pool frogs around 15 years ago but they were gone by then. Did you know that it was possibly a well meaning local herpetologist that may have helped get rid of the last native pool frogs, in an attempt to get rid of what he thought were introduced frogs. Ironic.
> 
> Did you also know Alex that I lived a few doors away from Charles Snell for around 16 years ? Yes he had the last native Pool frog, and I had its stunt double.


Are the Charles Snell colonies of European Tree Frogs and Pool Frogs still living in South East London?


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

How interesting. They did look a little more ''bumpy'' than I remember leopard frogs being, but then it was that many years ago. 

Please keep us updated on the outcome of the tests, and any further population you find. 

I sure wish there were paid jobs around here for stuff like this...is work? is it play? I would love it, love the training and the learning.:2thumb:


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## xvickyx (Jul 21, 2009)

Awww they are cute


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

Geomyda said:


> Are the Charles Snell colonies of European Tree Frogs and Pool Frogs still living in South East London?


I don't believe the tree froogs are there anymore. Unfortunately shortly after Charles published an article re the site in south east London mentioning its location, the tree frogs "mysteriously" disapeared. At least all the easier to find, calling males went. The other frogs are still there but I think there is a mix of pool/edibles there, not pure pool frogs. Certainly four years ago there were wall lizards and yellow bellied toads too.


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## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

Just wanna say congrats on your find - certainly not something you`d come across every day, and a bit of a jewel in the crown for the natural world.


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## sasandjo (Dec 8, 2007)

dont know nowt bout phibs but are these the same ones we got jumping all over kent with massive tadpoles , i see them all the time while fishing.


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

sasandjo said:


> dont know nowt bout phibs but are these the same ones we got jumping all over kent with massive tadpoles , i see them all the time while fishing.


 
Almost certainly you are seeing the closely related Marsh Frog _Rana ridibunda. _They were introduced from Hungary a very long time ago.


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Your threads are awesome.
Nice find!


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Blaptica said:


> Are you 100% they are pool frogs and not edible frogs ? I went to the last known site of native Pool frogs around 15 years ago but they were gone by then. Did you know that it was possibly a well meaning local herpetologist that may have helped get rid of the last native pool frogs, in an attempt to get rid of what he thought were introduced frogs. Ironic.
> 
> Did you also know Alex that I lived a few doors away from Charles Snell for around 16 years ? Yes he had the last native Pool frog, and I had its stunt double.


I will answer this in a way that helps members of the forum understand 'Green Frogs' a little better as some will probably wonder what the hell we're on about...

There are 3 European 'Green' frogs living in England. Marsh frogs, Edible frogs and Pool frogs. Marsh frogs and Pool frogs are both 'full' species. The Edible frog is a hybrid or cross between a Marsh frog and Pool frog...

So, why do i think they're lessonae (Pool frogs)? Firstly, i have no problems telling Marsh and Pool frogs apart, i know some people like to listen to their calls but those 2 species exhibit various morphological differences (apart from the fact that when you find a bunch of 15cm frogs, it's fairly obvious what they are!). Edible frogs are more confusing because of the fact they're a cross between the species and some can show a tendancy to look more Marsh or more Pool. So...

Firstly, the 2 males i have in my possession are both calling (i have only seen one calling though), the 1 that i've witnessed has shown to possess very dark vocal sacs which is normal for Pools, Edibles on the other hand exhibit very light grey sacs, plus neither male measures more than 4cm, bit small for an esculenta. All the Pool's thighs are, crucially, exhibiting fairly strong yellow, and they also exhibit a strong metatarsal tubercle (as i mentioned to Ben at the site). That's why i'm very happy they're Pelophylax lessonae.

Also, the reason the site is being kept secret is to prevent exactly what you mentioned, the mass collection for petshops etc and therefore also much disturbance of a cristatus site (which is maybe a new one too).


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

funky1 said:


> Just wanna say congrats on your find - certainly not something you`d come across every day, and a bit of a jewel in the crown for the natural world.


To be honest it isn't my find. A member of the general public spotted them and got in contact with whom i consider to be one of Europe's leading expert on such matters. He asked me to check out the site, and see if there was any truth in what had been reported, and find out if there were any 'unusual' species down there. I asked Ben to come along with me and we got the result we were after - confirmed discovery of Pool frogs (he was better at catching the lessonae than myself though haha). I don't think it's a massive deal but i do feel honoured that someone, who for over the past 20 years i've considered to be the 'best of the best', has so much faith in myself on such matters also - makes all the hard study over the years feel so worthwhile. It really was a great day, and Ben W's Salamandra collection is absolutely awesome, many Euro subspecies that i had never actually seen alive in the flesh. Very very nice animals indeed.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Oh and Mark, now you mention it, i do remember you telling me that Charles Snell story - he's a bit of a European amphibian genius. I remember i used to read his occasional articles in British Herpetological Society Bulletins about 10 times over until i'd fully digested what he was on about!.


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## Geomyda (Aug 11, 2008)

Blaptica said:


> I don't believe the tree froogs are there anymore. Unfortunately shortly after Charles published an article re the site in south east London mentioning its location, the tree frogs "mysteriously" disapeared. At least all the easier to find, calling males went. The other frogs are still there but I think there is a mix of pool/edibles there, not pure pool frogs. Certainly four years ago there were wall lizards and yellow bellied toads too.


Didn't Charles go off to live in Scandinavia?
I remember visiting him and touring the ground behind his garden. Plus I think that some members of the Britisg Herpetological Society were looking at trying to get the land saved as an inner City nature reserve.


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

Geomyda said:


> Didn't Charles go off to live in Scandinavia?
> I remember visiting him and touring the ground behind his garden. Plus I think that some members of the Britisg Herpetological Society were looking at trying to get the land saved as an inner City nature reserve.


You must be as old or older than me ! I think he lived in Germany for a while, not sure about scandinavia. We both moved away from the Road of the name of the nature reserve a few years ago, but he now lives only around 8 miles away in North Kent (i live a bit further away). The site is an official nature reserve run by the London wildlife trust I believe.


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

The reason ii actually caught more fogs than Al was due to the fact he insisted on paddling in the water in the pouring rain, he scared the frogs and i bagged them.
Pleased at the cristatus catch though:2thumb:
Thanks, Al, for the kind comments on my salamandra collection!!

Ben


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## Geomyda (Aug 11, 2008)

Blaptica said:


> You must be as old or older than me ! I think he lived in Germany for a while, not sure about scandinavia. We both moved away from the Road of the name of the nature reserve a few years ago, but he now lives only around 8 miles away in North Kent (i live a bit further away). The site is an official nature reserve run by the London wildlife trust I believe.


Damn, I have given the game away!:blush:
Yes, sadly I am probably quite Old. When god was a boy, I used to go to South Western Aquatics in Glenburnie Road almost every Saturday, and hang out with the famous George Boyse, and a young up-start called Ken Livingstone.
In those days, Green Lizards were 7/6, European Treefrogs were 2/-, and European Fire Salamanders were 3/6, less than 40p in new money:whistling2:
It would be good to catch up with Charles Snell, for years I copied his outdoor vivarium enclosures made out of Corrugated sheets of plastic. In these a range of mostly European amphibians lived and bred very well.


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

I would love a outdoor enclosure for american green or grey tree frogs but am not sure how they hibernate and so would not like to attempt it...I do know that they are found in places with extremely cold/icy winters, so Scotland should be fine...:lol2:


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ilovetoads2 said:


> I would love a outdoor enclosure for american green or grey tree frogs but am not sure how they hibernate and so would not like to attempt it...I do know that they are found in places with extremely cold/icy winters, so Scotland should be fine...:lol2:


The cinerea are somewhat more delicate than versicolor/chrysoscelis and would not survive outside all year round in an unprotected outdoor vivarium. Carefully planned heated greenhouse, then yes it's a viable option. The two species of Gray's can be found as far north as southeastern Canada and so armed with that knowledge i decided to attempt these in outdoor vivaria here in Dorset one year. They did exceptionally well, they hibernated amongst the roots of a potted blueberry bush and bred in around April of that year (i believe - it may have been May but not sure off the top of my head). I would say with careful planning then go for it Marianne, Al


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## opearse (Jun 2, 2019)

Sorry to post on this so long after it has been discussed. I had some questions regarding pool frogs in Dorset.

There is a large colony of green frogs in Dorset. I had assumed that they were marsh frogs but seeing this thread and some others I wondered whether it was possible they were pool frogs. 

Are populations of pool frogs in Dorset confirmed?

How would I tell the difference between pool frogs and marsh frogs? I am not an expert at amphibian identification.


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