# Rat Medical Problem



## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

My first (and favourite) rat, is having some problems. The night before last I went to feed her in the night and noticed she was sitting with her head to the ground (tilted sideways). I picked her up and she immediately began rolling, flipping sideways over and over, unless she was held tight.

She went to the vet yesterday, who said it could either be a) viral infection b) inner ear infection or c) brain tumour

They said that she should respond within 24-48 hours if an infection, and if not responding within 48 hours, then she would probably need to be PTS on the grounds of option c)

She's on 2 drops baytril a day and 1 drop metacam

Problem is it's been 24 hours now and no improvement, and she's got to go back to the vet this evening for a status update, and if no improvement at all, they want to look at PTS tonight.. or I can argue a case for her having another 24 hours to respond.

My main question is, does anyone have any experience with rats displaying these symptoms and how long it takes to respond to the antibiotics?

Obviously I do not want her to be in great suffering and discomfort, but neither do I want to give up on her too soon. Better to suffer for a few days if she's going to get better, if it's a or b they said there would be little pain.. but if it's c) she's likely to be experience a lot of pain and discomfort and unable to show it which is obviously upsetting.

Would you wait the extra 24 hours or go by the vets saying she would have responded by now and won't improve?


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

WE've had this before.

Unfortunately for us/our ratties it was a tumour not an infection so I can't answer your question re antibiotics response time.

I do think it is' sadly, much more common for this to be a tumour than an infection 

I remember our little lady who had this problem, if I remember rightly if the behaviour is extremely repetative then it's likely a tumour, if it seems more occasional then perhaps the other. our girl was literally circling with her head tilted almost flat to the floor constantly.

Hope she makes it though, I know how attached it's possible to be to them!


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Athravan said:


> My first (and favourite) rat, is having some problems. The night before last I went to feed her in the night and noticed she was sitting with her head to the ground (tilted sideways). I picked her up and she immediately began rolling, flipping sideways over and over, unless she was held tight.
> 
> She went to the vet yesterday, who said it could either be a) viral infection b) inner ear infection or c) brain tumour
> 
> ...


It sounds to me like an inner ear infection, which is a fairly common problem. Two drops of baytril a day does not sound like enough at all - how much does she weigh? For an average 300g doe I would be giving her about 0.2ml twice a day. I would also get the vet to give her a steroid injection, which I've had great results with when dealing with ear infections.

Get the vet to try a proper amount of baytril and steroids on top of the metacam ... it's worth a try before putting her to sleep. You will find that even if she recovers she's left with a residual head tilt, but they cope fine with that.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

sounds like head tilit 


taking from Home


> * Balance and Head Tilt Problems*
> There are three possible causes of head tilt and/or loss of balance in rats but it should be stated clearly that the single most common reason for a head tilt in a young or young adult rat is ear infection: -
> *Ear infection* - unfortunately rats have no way of telling us they have a little bit of ear-ache until it gets to a stage of causing either balance or head tilt problems. By this stage the ear infection is quite advanced and rapid treatment is essential. The rat may appear to be rolling from lack of balance and completely unable to stand, but if it is an ear infection, getting the rat injected with steroid and on a course of antibiotics will improve the condition very rapidly. If the ear infection was quite advanced the rat may be left with a slight head tilt after treatment, but it is not unusual for them to make a complete recovery with no sign they ever had the ear infection.
> *Stroke* - strokes will have the same symptoms as ear infection, but the treatment will not have the same effect as it would for an ear infection. As there is no way to differentiate the symptoms, a steroid injection plus antibiotics is the initial treatment. The steroid injection should help a bit and the rat may well stabilise enough to continue quality life, particularly with repeated steroid treatment. Quite often they will show signs of weakness of a limb or continued slight balance problems, but they may well live on for quite a while after the first stroke. It is unusual for a rat to have a second stroke and be able to maintain quality of life after.
> _*Pituitary Tumour*_ - again the symptoms are the same as for an ear infection, again treat as for an ear infection. The steroid will help stabilise the condition for a short period of time and repeated steroid treatment can help for a short time, but with a pituitary tumour there is one extra symptom to look out for in that the rat has an inability to hold food properly with their front paws - they will wedge the food against things to eat. This gets worse until the rat stops eating completely and the quality of life goes. Unfortunately by the time a pituitary tumour has displayed the symptoms, there is not much time left.


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## Jellybaby (May 14, 2007)

I've kept rats in the past and from my own experiance when they go it tends to be lung or brain tumours. My last rat had the exact same symptoms as ours, and we could also see one of his eyes bulging slightly. He had anti-biotics for a couple of days to see if that did anything (and to rule out an infection) and although he perked up for a day or two, once off the anti-biotics he went back to the head tiling and rolling. The tumour caused the rat to lose his sense of what was the right way up. I had to have him put to sleep.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I'll ask about the steroid injection and double check the dosage of baytril, the bottle definitely says one drop. She's not a big rat but I'd guess at least 250g or so. She is still eating fine, when propped up against something... but if not propped up or held tight it is pretty much constant flipping 

She wedges herself in the corner of the cage to stop it.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Poor Ratty I hope she can get through this.When mine went it too was through tumours Please keep us updated


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Athravan said:


> I'll ask about the steroid injection and double check the dosage of baytril, the bottle definitely says one drop. She's not a big rat but I'd guess at least 250g or so. She is still eating fine, when propped up against something... but if not propped up or held tight it is pretty much constant flipping
> 
> She wedges herself in the corner of the cage to stop it.


What dilution of baytril is it? Rat & Mouse Gazette: Medical Corner: Drug Usage Chart for Rats - that chart has the correct dosages for most antibiotics, so for baytril it's asking for 5mg/lb BID, PO. The bottle of baytril specifies a lower dose, but that is what most fanciers and their vets have found to be effective.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

toyah said:


> What dilution of baytril is it? Rat & Mouse Gazette: Medical Corner: Drug Usage Chart for Rats - that chart has the correct dosages for most antibiotics, so for baytril it's asking for 5mg/lb BID, PO. The bottle of baytril specifies a lower dose, but that is what most fanciers and their vets have found to be effective.


I'm at work now so don't have the bottle but I'm pretty sure it said 2.5 on it, i'm not sure if that's % or mg or what measure it is though.


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Athravan said:


> I'm at work now so don't have the bottle but I'm pretty sure it said 2.5 on it, i'm not sure if that's % or mg or what measure it is though.


It'll be Baytril 2.5% Solution, which contains 25mg of enrofloxacin per ml.

Your rat weighs approx. 1/2lb. You want to give her 5mg/lb, twice a day.

0.2ml of baytril contains 5mg enrofloxacin, so technically to give 5mg/lb you should be giving her 0.1ml twice a day.

Personally, I tend to give more than that - the ratguid ( Health Guide: Mycoplasma / Mycoplasmosis ) recommends 15 mg/kg, which would work out at 0.2ml twice a day for your girl. This is the dose I've had good results with for the average 3-400g girl. Obviously, speak to your vet about dosing - but frankly if the ABs at that dosage are doing nothing and the other option is euthanasia, I don't see what he would have to lose by trying a higher amount.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Sorry to read this thread. I've not kept rats, but have had this problem with one of my cats when she was a kitten. 

If it is an inner ear problem or vestibular syndrome then that's not going to go away in a day, I would think it will take a bit longer than that, but you should see a gradual improvement.

I'm with Toyah on this one, if she was mine I'd try a higher doee of anti-b and give it another day or two. If you see no improvement by then, then it could well be a tumour.

Hope it isn't, though!


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

It'll be a different vet tonight so I will get a 2nd opinion on the dosaging and definitely leave it at least another day to look for improvements I think. Fingers crossed when I get home in a few hours she will have improved. I always think well if they're still enjoying food life can't be that bad, but never like to think of them suffering unnecessarily.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Yes, I'm with you on that one! If they're still up to eating, then they haven't given up. I think it's when they stop eating that you might believe they've stopped caring.

I take your point about not wanting her to suffer, but the practicalities of a little suffering if she is going to improve will outweigh the PTS without giving it a try first - it's a really fine balance isn't it?

Hope she's OK


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## lily-jo (Mar 27, 2008)

echo feorag, i think this is the best way forward, its got to be worth a try. and as shes still eating then she hasnt given up.
hope ratty improves, fingers crossed for you
x


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I know it wasnt'a rat but one of my rescue ferrets had similar symptoms when he was around 4 yrs old.

The vet said it was a stroke and gave AB's and painkillers.
He said if no improvement in 48 hours he was going to put him to sleep. Didnt' ask me if I agreed or anything. Just that was what he was going to do.

I took 'Rabbit' to another vet who agreed to give him a go. he was on constant AB's for 7 months along with metacam.

I still never found out what it was but he 'recovered' to some degree. Didnt' die and lived a further three years with out medication.
He always had a head tilt after the initial symptoms.


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## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

I had a ratty who had a head tilt - the vet initially tried antibiotics in case in was an infection, but reckoned that she'd had a mild stroke which left her tilty. 

She lived for a good few months as a tilty old girl, didn't slow her down too much! I eventually lost her to a respiratory problem 

I hope you get some results with the antibiotics, I have my fingers crossed!


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## Jo-Bug (Jan 14, 2008)

I agree, it sounds like head tilt. As far as I know there is nothing a vet can do about it as it is a neurological malfunction. I used to work for a pet shop and a lot of rats randomly got it, and were re-homed to people with experience of this so they could live a normal life. In my experience, if you have a group of rats, generally the other rats will walk either side of the one with the tilt to stabilise it. seen it a few times! But the spinning and flipping is definately a sign of head tilt. 

discuss your options with the vet.

hope this helps!

x


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## cannotstopbuyingballs (Dec 29, 2007)

I have seen this I always put it down to brain damage. These animals feed and even breed with the condition. I suppose that something must cause the damage in the first place.

I am sorry to hear about this please keep us posted


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

The vet last night increased the dosage to 0.2ml baytril 2 x a day and said give it 7 days. There is no improvement yet


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## biohazard156 (Nov 11, 2007)

I had a young ratty who had a terrible inner ear infection when she was a baby and they gave her synulox palatable drops ( I am sure baytril is bad for young, growing babies) and she made a full recovery. 

It took a good 3-4 days be4fore I saw an improvment and I had to hand feed her babyfood and get moisture into her during this time. MIght be another option for you to try the synulox. Hope she gets better

A


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## roguez (Mar 19, 2007)

Athravan said:


> The vet last night increased the dosage to 0.2ml baytril 2 x a day and said give it 7 days. There is no improvement yet


it can take 2 - 3 days for any sign of improvement, you will also need to make sure it is in a single level cage with maybe 1 sedate friend for company or on her own with a heat pad to help keep warm. some Probiotics will help to as she is on antibiotics, also give her soft food like baby food, kitten food, lactol, soya milk even some of your own food blended down to a soup texture will help her eat. i personally give mine their baytril twice a day .2ml in the morning and .2ml in the evening if she is on .4ml baytril tastes really really bad so give it mixed in a little black current juice, or ferretvite, mayonnaise, sugar sandwich (take 12 cube bread with marge on sprinkle sugar on then add baytril)

she basically just needs calm and quiet imagine how you would feel with a serious case of ear infection


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## BlackRose (Jul 8, 2007)

Im sorry, Ive kept alot of rats and still have 3. Ive never had this happen. Whenever one of my rats got ill it was always the respitory infection. Ive only ever had one abcess and one tumour (not head).
But I can imagine, the pain and frustration you must be feeling with all this worry. Especially when you dont know what decsion to make. 
I went through a similar thing with my rat, Candy.
One vet was saying one thing and another something else. Always get a second opinion cos one vet gave mine steroids and the other vet said she shouldve been on baytril first.
And then my other rat went downhill in a day with no signs and had to have a steroid injection and then she was fine in a few hours for six more months. Next time she wasnt so lucky.
Do what you think is right, in your heart.
She will thank you for it whatever happens. Good luck and keep us updated. Best wishes to you and your rat.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Sadly Poppy took the decision away from me this afternoon, she rapidly went downhill today, although she was eating fine last night and certainly was no worse...This afternoon before I could get back to the vet she passed away, it seemed fairly peaceful 

I can only assume it was a tumour or some sort of neurological problem to go from being absolutely fine last week, to this even after treatment.

Absolutely gutted, she was my first rat, and will be sadly missed by me and her sister Penny who has been upset this week as I moved poppy to a small hospital cage and I can tell she's looking for her.


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## BlackRose (Jul 8, 2007)

im so sorry 
You did your best for her. Thats all we can do. I know it doesnt make you feel any better. Dont let it put you off though. As tough as it may seem, give your attention to her sister now. She will be going through the same thing.
All the best, chin up.
Adelle


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I was so sorry to hear this, but as Black Rose says, you did your best and a heck of a lot of animals don't get that!


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## roguez (Mar 19, 2007)

i'm so sorry i know what its like to lose your first rats, you did your best for her and its true a lot of pets don't get that


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## slither61 (Nov 18, 2006)

Athravan said:


> My first (and favourite) rat, is having some problems. The night before last I went to feed her in the night and noticed she was sitting with her head to the ground (tilted sideways). I picked her up and she immediately began rolling, flipping sideways over and over, unless she was held tight.
> 
> She went to the vet yesterday, who said it could either be a) viral infection b) inner ear infection or c) brain tumour
> 
> ...


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## lily-jo (Mar 27, 2008)

sorry to hear your poor rat gave up. but you did your best for her and gave her a chance. hope her sister doesnt pine too much
all our sympathies and best wishes
charlotte x


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

Just found this thread as unfortunately my rat, Monyet, is displaying these symptoms this morning.
She was absolutely fine last night then I went in this morning to get her and Nimh out and she was all doddery - almost like she was drunk/disorientated. She ate perfectly fine but her balance is all gone and it seems like her sight is affected too.

Got the vet's booked for an hour and I'm so worried  She seems chirpy enough in her self but I know from experience with these kind of problems that unfortunately they're normally not very good news. 

Fingers crossed it isn't the case this time.


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

I had two rats with these symptoms who went on to live over a year each - insist on a steroid jab and give the baytril amount as advised here not by the vet - I usually return for further steroid jab after a few days .... they usually stay with a visible tilt but not overly handicapped by it - fingers crossed that yours is one of the luckier ones too.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Yup. I've got a girlie here who has a permanent tilt after treatment. Steroids is the way to go. Good luck!


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks all  Well better news than expected really. She had a steroid jab and the Baytril. It was a locum vet and she was brilliant in fairness. Really understanding. I'm monitoring Monyet over the weekend then got another appointment for Monday morning (free of charge) to check how she's doing. Thought that was pretty good as a lot of the time my other vet used to just say to bring a pet back if it doesn't improve, but she was keen to give her another check over just to be sure. They noticed her one ear was pretty inflamed so hopefully it'll be cleared up this weekend. She managed to win over one of the veterinary nurses who wasn't keen on rats too


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

Well I went to check on her just now after work and she doesn't seem too good at all. Whereas before she was just a bit 'doddery' when walking around but would settle quite quickly, I found her in her bed just turning round and round on her side. I thought at first that she was trying to get up but it went beyond that. 

The vet did say that it'd take a couple of days to see any improvement, and I'm not naive enough to expect miracles in hours, but I wasn't expecting her to seem generally worse after the first bout of treatment. 

I'm staying in with her tonight (was meant to be going to a friend's birthday), to keep an eye on her in case she gets into any difficulty moving around the cage and then I'll take it from there. Thankfully she is still eager to eat and drink and doesn't really seem deterred from trying to get around, it's just the spinning when she was laying down that has seemed to worsen.

Ah poor Monyet. I know I'm not allowed favourites, and I don't really like to have favourites, but she's always been rather special.


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