# No doubt the first of many dart frog questions!



## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

Hey, as some of you may know, I'm braving darts this summer. I've decided to go with an exo terra 45 x 45 x 60 to house two males and one female. I have a few questions though which will probably sound really stupid to you guys and be no-brainers but hey, we've all gotta sound stupid some time :blush:! I apologise now for the massive post and I hope you live long enough to make it to the end!

Ok, I was trying to work out how you're supposed to clean the viv when using a false bottom. It would be easy enough to drain the water out but how are you supposed to actually scrub it when it's all built in?? I was thinking of just having a small water feature in the corner as the viv isn't massive....I'd trickle some down some slate pieces and have a little tub at the bottom with a small pump...that way I can easily remove and clean it. But even if I do that, surely I'll still end up with stagnant water at the bottom of the viv?? I assume some drainage layer is needed beneath the substrate but surely water will sit in it and be inaccessible for cleaning! Arg! Confuddlement. I was thinking of having a heat mat beneath the viv to increase evaporation, reduce stagnation and help keep the humidity up.

Also, what's the best method of heating? I know everyone will say use a heat mat as bulbs dry vivs out but our house is kept really cold for the sals. I've always been told a heat mat just warms the surface it's in contact with so I don't think it would get warm enough. Would an exo terra canopy handle a low wattage ceramic and would this be a safe method of heating? Should I maybe use a heat light instead? What UV is recommended? I've heard 2.0% is the best to use but is there a specific bulb that anyone would recommend?

Last question (for now!)....how best to ensure the tank cycles and self cleans? I would obviously buy some dendrosoil and the viv would have various food items loose (oops, just thought of another q) but is there an optimum balance of particular species or anything I should add which isn't food for the darts but will clean the viv? The other question I just thought of is how good are darts at hunting for themselves? If I seal all holes is it safe to let fruit flies etc loose and let them hunt for themselves or do they need a more 'here's your food' kind of approach?

Sorry for all the questions, I think I'm just trying to delay revising really.:blush: Also sorry for the many more I'm likely to post, I just wanna get this spot on. Cheers guys :2thumb:


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## woooding (Jun 10, 2009)

hey

i've made a number of poison dart frog tanks from exoterras, going the whole hog, from no experience in it whatsoever so i can tell you some of the things i've learnt

1 - false bottom. has its pro's and cons, pro being your humidity will go through the roof and you may never need to spray again and you only have to top up the water + it doesn't matter if your waterfall leaks coz it all goes the same way anyway. cons being unless its completely sealed and seperated your water WILL go brown. thats just fact. so expect your hard crafted waterfall you spent ages skulpting to look like a standpipe from a shitbox. best way i've found is to make water features like you would make a waterfall outside, i'e completely contain the water, have it sit on an icecream tub full of water or something.

there are those little clay balls you an get to stick on the bottom but big gravel will do fine for drainage, otherwise you''ll get anerobic bacteria in your soil which is not good. i have made most of my new tanks with expanding foam making both the background AND the floor. sounds weird but i just left holes for plants and pools to clean out. i then coated them in either cocofibre or that self leveling concrete and they look the shizzle!

false bottom is entirely up too you but if its any help i've made 3 with false bottoms and none have done what i wanted them too, so i'd recommend a self contained waterfall.

2. heating. whatever, mine arn't heated at all and my living room maintains it at a constant 77 with a drop at night.

3. lighting - my lights are for the plants and thats about it really

4. theres plenty of bugs that will clean the tank for you but prob not at the rate you require. i end up brushing poo off rocks and plants onto the soil and giving it a hardcore spray to soak it into the soil. springtails and tropical woodlice will feast on their waste but yuou'll find they get eaten before they can do much. be better to seed you tank with these foodstuffs for a few weeks before you add your frogs

5. fruitflies will drive you INSANE. they will escape, get flightless ones or your house will become infested. dust them and sling them in because the little buggers escape, find a high spot and sit there, proud, anouncing to the world that they have escaped


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

hiya, cheers for your reply. I was definitely thinking of using those clay balls (I forget the technical name) but I'm worried that water will sit in the bottom of the viv and go rancid. I'm definitely going off the idea of a false bottom, considering that darts don't need moving water, I think I'll go with my miniature water fall type thing and just work out how to hide it really well.

What light do you use? I'm thinking of getting a broad spectrum heat bulb but I still don't think it would be powerful enough as our house tends to be 18-19C all year round.

I plan on leaving the viv to cycle for several months first as building it's gonna leave me too skint to buy the frogs! It'll probably be up and running for around 4 or 5 months before froggies go in. I've heard nowt but bad things about fruit flies! I take it darts are good hunters and don't need to have things waved in front of them? We prefer the 'go hunt it yourself' approach as it's more natural.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I dismantled my waterfall 'cos it was such a pain in the arse.

My house is cool now for my sals, about 68. I heat my exo terra with a night glow bulb which puts things up to about 74. I also have a fluroscent bulb and two exo terra twisty bulb things which must help the temps a bit. 

Plants and a rain system easily get the humdity to 86/87 at night and 75 during the day, that's with the mesh exposed on the top and it only sprays once a day. Cover the mesh and himidity will stay up.

Saying that, I don't really know what's going in it now:bash:


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## woooding (Jun 10, 2009)

well fruitflys are hardly agile! but dusting them and giving them a hard shake usually stuns them enough that your frogs will hover the pile of them up before they get close to escaping. if you seed the tank with springtails and woodlice first they should be plenty for them to snack on while your out then feed them fruitflys when you get in from work, and try and put them in so that they get hoovered up before they go anywhere. trust me, sitting on your couch with your skin crawling coz 1 too many fruitflys have escaped is not a good situation to be in

also they flies will clean the vitimin dust off themselves if they can so best get them eaten early.

i got the exoterra hood and stuck 2 full spectrum light tubes in it. think they were 2.0's..

instead of a false bottom, make yourself a pool, that you can cover with a plastic mesh or hesian or something and cover the mesh with gravel. you can stick the pump in the pool and pipe it up to wherever you want it to go, then it just drains through the gravel when it comes back down. i've got a pump sat in an ice cream tub i've covered and hidden and that works fine.


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

did you use an exo terra one? They're absolute b%$'#cks! Gave up on using one in the CWD viv cos the tube kept coming out, the pump kept breaking and we got through abour 3 foggers in as many months! :roll: I've started avoiding using exo equipment (says she who's just bought an exo viv!) cos it just breaks. 

I plan on covering the mesh, having it heavily planted, using a small water feature and spraying once per day....I gave up on the idea of a misting system as it costs a fortune but may look into it at a later date when I build my foggie hoards. Also still considering the heat mat under the bottom of the tank to help humidity and keep stagnant water to a minimum as there doesn't seem to be any way of keeping it clean without ripping the whole thing out. Has anyone kept darts in a viv which never needed a deep clean?


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

woooding said:


> instead of a false bottom, make yourself a pool, that you can cover with a plastic mesh or hesian or something and cover the mesh with gravel. you can stick the pump in the pool and pipe it up to wherever you want it to go, then it just drains through the gravel when it comes back down. i've got a pump sat in an ice cream tub i've covered and hidden and that works fine.


:2wallbang: what a numpty, I can't believe I didn't think of that! That's an excellent idea, thanks very much. This is why I ask you guys, just don't laugh at me too much :blush:


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## woooding (Jun 10, 2009)

meh, i used the hood because i can get exoterra stuff at trade prices and to be fair its never failed on me once, i've got about 6 of em but thats all the exo terra stuff i use to be fair

as for the deep clean thats the thing, as long as the waters moving it won't become stagnant. moving water has a higher oxygen content which allows aerobic bacteria to live rather than the stagnant anerobic.

i pump the water out of mine every so often which is easy, basically i built my pump tube into the background using cork bark and expanding foam. to empty it all i do is stick an attachment into the hose at the top with apipe coming to a bucket and pump the water out. takes like 5 seconds. 

have never had to deep clean except the one time my tank went stagnant. i improved the drainage and haven't needed one since that was over a year and a half ago.

mix increasing amount og gravel with your soil nearer the bottom that should help, but yeah those clay beads work a treat


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

cool, am now thinking....no false bottom, layer of beady thingies, layer of that dividing fabricy stuff (brain dead, sorry I can't remember the names of anything, I've been cramming for a week so all useful life knowledge has been squished out) then I'm thinking a thin layer of gravel blending in to the substrate. Small water feature completely seperate so can be removed for scrubbing and a drainage tube hidden behind the background that goes to the bottom of the viv...when tank needs emptying, tilt the viv slightly and pump excess water out. How deep should the drainage layer be?

Ok, heating..... a heat mat beneath the viv to help with humidity and general air/water movement and a 2.0% UV bulb in hood. I'm not sure what to use in the second slot, maybe someone could advise whether a ceramaic is viable or could recommend a good heat bulb? I only want two sides of the viv to be covered because of where it will be kept and as I want my water feature to be in the corner, I guess that rules out using a heat mat stuck to the side as there's no way it would heat through cork bark.


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## woooding (Jun 10, 2009)

got to ask why you think heating the bottom will help because i'm stumped 

you say you have 2 slots... am i assuming you have an exoterra hood, if so ceramic bulbs can't go in it. in fact that would be really dangerous. sorry if thats not what you meant

stick andother 2.0 bulb in the other side, your plants will love it and it will make the tank look more uniform

i have that and a heat bulb sat hovering over the mesh (i've raised it using some ceramic pot fragments so the bulb doesn't burn the mesh)

thats what i duid for heat but never use it as my living room + heat from the hood is more than enough

personally i think sticking a heatmat underneath is a baaaad idea, the heat will not disperse properly and can in fact crack your tank. also i'm fairly sure it will just make your tank stagnate quicker


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

this is why I ask daft questions, I've never kept such a high humidity viv before or used an exo. One of my original questions was whether a ceramic would be safe to use in an exo canopy but no-one answered so I asked again! I'm concerned that lights won't raise the heat enough...as mentioned before, our house tends to be 18-19C. I was planning on covering the mesh to keep the humidity up so may not be able to use another bulb...I guess I'll have to play around with that when it's set up though.

As for the heat mat cracking the glass, don't most people heat frog vivs with heat mats stuck to the side? I thought the heat might help water to evaporate rather than stagnate but if you think it will have the opposite effect I'm more than happy to take advice from someone who knows.

There's masses of info on how the setup should look and what temps etc there should be but nothing useful on the best way to actually set the thing up! I'm hoping to build something which lasts forever and looks really natural (and of course keep happy healthy frogs) :2thumb:


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

hydroleca!! Bead thingies, I knew I knew it.


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## woooding (Jun 10, 2009)

cpiggott22 said:


> hydroleca!! Bead thingies, I knew I knew it.


 thats him!

haha do you ever use dendroboard? dunno about advertising other boards on here but basically its mecca for all PDF owners

the construction guides on there show you EXACTLY how to build a tank from scratch and have it looking the nuts

so many genius ideas on there

Member's Frogs & Vivariums - Dendroboard


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

I'd totally forgotten about that! Someone mentioned it to me before and I forgot to look then as well...I'll take a goose. Thanks for all your help


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

Hi
I keep kokoe poison darts in an exo terra and i have no false bottom and no water feature, just a couple of bark panels , amnd i left the stadard panel in the back. Its well planted and the moss is growing well.
The lighting is the 2.0uv in compact bulbs in the twin lit exo terra lid, the bulbs produce heat-obviously- and i have a couple of terra fans under the hood which blow the warm air into the tank, i live in a cool house and the temps at 24c and about 80% humidity, the fans are on for about 15 mins every hour during the daylight period and the mat on the side comes on at night at a lower temp, as its cooler at night anyway.
The frogs are calling all the time so i think natural and simple works well.

Ben


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

I take it the heat mat is just taped to the outside with nothing covering it on the inside? My problem is that I only want two of the sides to be covered because of where it will be and both of those will need to be cork bark because I want a little waterfall. How the hell to keep the damn thing warm??


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

The fans keep it warm, using the heat from the lights!!! seems silly to waste the heat, 
The heat mat thats on the side just gives background heat for the evening/night, remember the mats radiate heat through the glass and as we are warm blooded we tend not to feel it.
Trust me it all works, i had mine set up and working for a good month before the frogs went in.

Ben


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## captaincarot (Mar 20, 2008)

Ben W said:


> The fans keep it warm, using the heat from the lights!!! seems silly to waste the heat,
> The heat mat thats on the side just gives background heat for the evening/night, remember the mats radiate heat through the glass and as we are warm blooded we tend not to feel it.
> Trust me it all works, *i had mine set up and working for a good month before the frogs went in.*
> 
> Ben


 
oooh some one with sense and patience well done that man


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

ok, one more extremely stupid question. How quickly does cork bark rot? Should I stick the background all the way to the base or just to the top of the substrate? 

Ben- I'm giving in! I'm sacrificing one of my cork panels to have a heat mat stuck to the side instead *sigh* won't look as pretty but I just can't work out how to heat it without a mat.


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## keeno (Feb 16, 2009)

never kept darts or anything so please dont shout at me when i make silly statements...

if you have water moving and maybe a small drop from a waterfall into the water (say 3cm-5cm) then the hunmidity will rise enough to keep your frogs happy? say 80% maybe 90% if you cover the top?? water conducts heat from light sources, hence why you dont water plants in the day because the light on the water conducts heat and burns the plant...

so high humidity, water vapour conducting heat rises temp... all works nicely.... dunno. i may be completely wrong. but waterfal may help all of this??? 
sorry if im waffling, just thinking aloud....:blush:


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

Waterfalls tend to cause more problems than they solve in dart vivs.

If you are using an exoterra, cover the mesh with glass and your humidity will be fine. I have always used Exo's for darts and only need to spray a couple of times a week.

Depending on what species you are planning on, you may also be better off getting a 60x45x45 rather than a 45x45x60 as they are more suitable for the more terrestrial species


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

I've got ideas for humidity all sorted now cheers :2thumb: also settled on how to heat the viv and have a teeny water feature...I'm going to set it up in such a way that if it does all go wrong it'll be really easy to just whip out the reservoir and the feature itself will look nice without the water. 

My question was about cork bark rotting....would it be better to have the cork background going all the way to the bottom of the viv or just to the top layer of substrate? Other than that, I think that's all my questions until I actually start building the thing *yay!*

Oh and I plan on getting auratus although to be perfectly honest, I haven't started building or researching yet...I was just starting to think about it and I plan on getting started properly in about 2 weeks. Are they a more arboreal or terrestrial species? I have the viv now so perhaps someone could suggest a suitable species?


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## woooding (Jun 10, 2009)

aurautus CAN be quite shy, i never saw mine really, not for ages + the morphs i had didn't really standout from the general background or flor.

there are bolder beginner species like the tinctorius (sp?) and the leucomelas which are brighter coloured and you'll see them all day long


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

:lol2: they were my second and third choices!! I think I'll wait till the setup's ready and then start looking around and researching more specific species.....then I can just adjust the temps and humidity if needed although they generally seem to need the same conditions. I had a very quick look and the auratus do seem largely terrestrial...I like the tinctorius but are they a bit more arboreal?


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## woooding (Jun 10, 2009)

not really, they'll climb but spend a majority of time on the floor

of the 3 species, leucomelas are the most climby


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Just thought this link maye help you decide ho to go about bulding what you decide to. 

Gallery


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

that's fantastic, thanks very much. I've got loads of ideas now, I just need to start thinking about which species to keep. I'm worried now that the viv is unsuitable as it's 60 high and 45x 45 on the base....seeing as most darts seem to be largely terrestrial I'm concerned they might feel too cramped. Do you know of any slightly more adventurous ones which are likely to use the full height? I don't mind a challenge but would prefer something that doesn't cost a fortune!


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

Mine is the same as yours and my phyllobates us the height ok, a few branches etc in the viv and the males climb up and use the higher areas to call from, the good thing about phyylobates is that they can eat reasonable size crickets, so rules out the ned fro fruit flies, which i think is a bonus, whereas tinctorius, although a largish frog, specialises in small food items-fruit flies and micro crickets- soemthing i have done and wanted to leave behind, hence the phyllobates arrived!!

Ben


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

are those the kokos? I'm quite taken by _Phyllobates terribilis _and I've read they tend to climb a fair bit


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

yes they are kokoes, i am getting terribilis shortly but they really need the longer tank, rather than the one i have, i have 4 kokoes in mine and they are doing real well, one male is calling as i type this!!

Ben


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

do you think two terribilis would be ok in my viv? I've decided 3 would be too many given the floor space


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## ex0tics (Jun 9, 2009)

cpiggott22 said:


> do you think two terribilis would be ok in my viv? I've decided 3 would be too many given the floor space


I used to keep a pair of terribilis in that tank and they seemed fine but they just weren't for me.


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

i dont see why a pair wouldnt be fine in there, cant believe how much terribilis have gone up generally in the last few years, nice frogs though, and they can tackle good size crix too.

Ben


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

ex0tics said:


> I used to keep a pair of terribilis in that tank and they seemed fine but they just weren't for me.


why not? I have no experience whatsoever with darts so would appreciate all help choosing the right species for me really. Are they particularly secretive?


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

terribilis, secretive, nah, not being the most toxic frog in the wild, once setttled in they are very bold, a friend of mine could feed his from his hand no problem


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

They've definitely jumped to the head of the queue. One more exam to go then I can start focusing on the more interesting things in life :whistling2:. Thanks to everyone for all your great advice, I promise to try not to ask too many daft questions when I start the build :blush:


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## captaincarot (Mar 20, 2008)

cpiggott22 said:


> They've definitely jumped to the head of the queue. One more exam to go then I can start focusing on the more interesting things in life :whistling2:. Thanks to everyone for all your great advice, *I promise to try not to ask too many daft questions when I start the build* :blush:


 
if you don't know the answer there is no such thing as a daft question


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

You love asking us what you call daft questions, to see if we have daft answers, secretly you are a dart frog viv building geek and are doing the exams to make it official:lol2::lol2:

Ben


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

:blush::blush: I choose not to take offence to that mr Benjamin....for now anyway :Na_Na_Na_Na:. Can't wait until I'm an official animal geek....but if one more person asks me to diagnose their bloody dog's behavioural problems I think I may be forced into a murderous rampage (unless it's raining or cold)


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## woooding (Jun 10, 2009)

what you doing? a degree? what in?


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

I'm taking a degree in animal behaviour at exeter uni


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## woooding (Jun 10, 2009)

aaah fair play i did zoology at sheffield

best thing ever! the only thing i've ever been able to get interested in, loved the animal behaviour module


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

I was tempted by zoology but something didn't sit quite right for me. When I found out Exeter had started running the degree it was a bit of a no brainer....shame I decided to wait so long as I'll be almost 30 by the time I finish education :gasp: *try not to think about it...it's better than getting a job*


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## woooding (Jun 10, 2009)

i wish i was still at uni! finished about 4 years ago and i have to say the working world is rubbish! I chose zoology because it seemed to be the jack of all trades, the modules i took mean i can pretty much get a job in anything biological which has worked out really well

animal behaviour was defo interesting i'm just glad i got to spread my modules over different areas and didn't burn my interest out on one topic 

and your right being at uni is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than having a job, i'd go back in a heartbeat... PhD perhaps....


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

yup yup, pHD is the way forward...I'm almost 23 now and just finishing my first year. By the time I finish my batchlors I'll be almost 25, master almost 26 and pHD almost 29 I think. That's assuming I don't fail miserably of course and crawl away in shame without even attempting my masters. Don't know why I bother though really as my dream is to live in the woods, grow and keep all my own food and own a little horse and cart to go into town :blush::blush: lol, it's like living in little house on the prarie!! I'll have to have a generator with an x-box hooked up though to keep the OH happy or there'll be a mutiny and I'm pretty sure the dog would be on his side


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## woooding (Jun 10, 2009)

haha similar views here, and i nearly made an abortion of my degree by going out FAR too much, but scraped a 2:1 so i was happy. decided that that was enough of full time education, it was sending me loopy (literally, i have ADHD and it was starting to get waaaay too harcore for me in terms of having to concentrate!)

i'm hoping to sell my house in the next few years, i turn 27 this year, i want to be in borneo by 30 pushing wheelbarrows full of baby orangutans!


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

I think that's where 3 gap years helped me out...I feel as though I've gotten all that out of my system and not living on campus means I can't get distracted or pulled into anything. I can imagine a zoology third year being really though, I think I was scared off by the amount of biology (I did my biology A-level in one year and was put off for life!). 

I'd love to spend a summer with orangutans but I don't think I could make it my life's work because I'd find it too upsetting. I would like to be involved in conservation research though. I think that attached to my house in the woods would have to be a massive animal park full of rescued and endangered animals and I'd have an education centre so school trips could come and learn how to protect our wildlife. :blush::blush: making myself sound like a right t#t now! Sad really, I just want a simple life without gadgets and to keep and rescue loads of animals :flrt:


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## woooding (Jun 10, 2009)

yeah it was quite hardcore biologywise but more in the first year to be honest. the third year modules i did were things like cooperation and conflict, ecotoxicology, evolutionary ecology, parasitism etc etc

they were really interesting

the module on social insects i found very interesting, was surprised by that.

i'm a biopharmacist now so god knows how i ended up doing this!


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