# a little help on a hoggie



## bignick (Mar 24, 2007)

right i have a westen hoggie and i know there not on a dwa 

but my question is can a hoggie kill u 

i was told a bite from a hoggie is a bad as a bee sting but i know some people can die from that 
]
what i am saying is that is it alot worse then that is it cos this snake is back fangged that it is harder from it to tag u with venom 

please can someone help me with the info 


i have sarched the net but its all in zoo talk and i dont understand most of it :blush::blush:

so please guys in dummy turms please :lol2:


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## Mememe (Feb 15, 2009)

The bee sting comparison is misleading IMO. The bite accounts I have read all record mild aching pain and no swelling to lots of swelling. Very different to most reactions to a bee sting.

They are extremely unlikely to envenomate you unless to smell like food, and if they did, there is no chance of death unless you were severely allergic, which is unlikely.


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## bignick (Mar 24, 2007)

thank you very much for your help


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## Gemonensis (Feb 24, 2009)

About the venom of H. nasicus:

"The snake's enlarged rear maxillary teeth are used as fangs, and several cranial adaptations contribute to subduing prey, including rotation of the maxillae to elevate the posterior teeth into a stabbing position for the injection of the venom (Kapus 1964; Kroll 1976). The venom is produced with both serous and mucous elements in a Duvernoy's gland (Taub 1967) that is connected to the enlarged teeth by a duct. Hiss and Mackessy (1997) reported venom yields of 10-28 µl that contained 55.8-84.0% protein. Painful human envenomations have occured (Bragg 1960; Morris 1985); symptoms include discoloration and swelling of the bitten site and slight continuos bleeding from the wounds. Care should be taken when these snakes are handled." (from the *Snakes of the United States and Canada* by Carl H. Ernst and Evelyn M. Ernst; page 145)

Hope this helps, bite can be painful, but not serious


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Gemonensis said:


> About the venom of H. nasicus:
> 
> "The snake's enlarged rear maxillary teeth are used as fangs, and several cranial adaptations contribute to subduing prey, including rotation of the maxillae to elevate the posterior teeth into a stabbing position for the injection of the venom (Kapus 1964; Kroll 1976). The venom is produced with both serous and mucous elements in a Duvernoy's gland (Taub 1967) that is connected to the enlarged teeth by a duct. Hiss and Mackessy (1997) reported venom yields of 10-28 µl that contained 55.8-84.0% protein. Painful human envenomations have occured (Bragg 1960; Morris 1985); symptoms include discoloration and swelling of the bitten site and slight continuos bleeding from the wounds. Care should be taken when these snakes are handled." (from the *Snakes of the United States and Canada* by Carl H. Ernst and Evelyn M. Ernst; page 145)
> 
> Hope this helps, bite can be painful, but not serious


thanks for that - sounds like an interesting read! *off to amazon*


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## catflea (Sep 1, 2007)

Anything with any kind of venom can kill. My missus would dearly love a hoggy, however when she was handling one a few years back she ended up getting a nip and went into severe anaphalactic (sp?) shock, which could have killed her.

Just because for most its not going to cause any real harm, doesn't mean that it can't kill some : victory:


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

Single bee stings do not kill people, rather it acts to trigger the persons own over sensitive reaction to the foreign protein (venom, peanuts, wheat etc). It is worth considering the possibility that a person who suffers from bee stings may be predisposed to a bad reaction if bitten by a mildly venomous rear fanged snake.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

There is also the possibility that bites which have appeared to have had no reaction COULD be due to the fact that it had been a dry bite. I say this because last year one of my old females died, so I had a close look at the inside of the mouth. The fangs appeared to be arranged in a pair on either side and hinged, so that they were folded flat against the top of the mouth, but could be erected, with what looked like a sheath protecting the teeth. I am certainly not suggesting this is correct, simply my observations. 
If they are hinged, it would explain the disparity between bites, with some having absolutely no effect, yet others having severe symptoms.


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## Serious D (Apr 12, 2008)

That was a good read, I just wish some breeders and pet shop owners gave out this info on hoggie venom, instead of its just like a bee sting or its actualy a wifes tail, there fangs are just for poping frogs, and all that s**t , I mean i did alot of research before i got my hoggie about there venom potentcy how its deliverd and etc, And thanks chondro13 for the info on hoggies, I got my first about 3 weeks ago, he started off realy docile but now he has a real character, always puffing up n hissing when i go in his viv, even get the odd headbutt and hood, but i always give him the respect he deservs too.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Serious D said:


> That was a good read, I just wish some breeders and pet shop owners gave out this info on hoggie venom, instead of its just like a bee sting or its actualy a wifes tail, there fangs are just for poping frogs, and all that s**t , I mean i did alot of research before i got my hoggie about there venom potentcy how its deliverd and etc, And thanks chondro13 for the info on hoggies, I got my first about 3 weeks ago, he started off realy docile but now he has a real character, always puffing up n hissing when i go in his viv, even get the odd headbutt and hood, but i always give him the respect he deservs too.



Good for you!! they are fantastic little buggers - i love the 'im well hard! im a big scary cobra!! hiss! hood!' coming from a 6" worm :lol2: but you are wise not to take them for granted - never let a rear fang chew on you, you may be the first to prove a rear fanged species is in fact fatal! :2thumb:


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## Serious D (Apr 12, 2008)

yep they are great, and no i deffo wont be leting him chew on me.


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

chondro13 said:


> never let a rear fang chew on you, you may be the first to prove a rear fanged species is in fact fatal!


Good advice, but I think Karl Smidt and Robert Mertens are probably turning in their respective graves!

David.


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## Chriseybear (Jun 6, 2008)

Wheres the link of that guy who let it Chew on him..
*goes to look*


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## Chriseybear (Jun 6, 2008)

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/240804-hognose-snake-bite.html


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## phoenixxx (Jan 18, 2009)

*Trust me, I'm a doctor..*

You're right when you say a bee sting can kill- this happens when a person's body goes into a hyperreactive response to the bee venom, known as anaphylactic shock. This is a severe, whole-body allergic reaction. After an initial exposure ("sensitizing dose") to a substance like bee venom, the person's immune system becomes sensitized to that allergen. On a subsequent exposure, an allergic reaction occurs- the lips, tongue and airway swell up, and blood pressure drops. When people die from this, it's usually due to respiratory arrest because they havn't received medical attention quickly enough.

Anaphylaxis can happen with any substance, although the more common ones are bee venom, strawberries, peanuts and latex. So technically it could happen with hognose venom- but you would have to receive an initial bite to sensitise you, and a further bite to cause an anaphylactic reaction. 
I wouldn't worry about it. Anaphylaxis is an over-sensitive allergic response and nothing to do with whether the snake is mildly venomous or not. If you look above, I've mentioned that the most common allergens include things like peanuts and strawberries which to most people are completely harmless. Indeed, the odds of an anaphylactic reaction would be the same as for someone getting bitten by their corn, developing a sensitivity to corn saliva following that, then getting bitten again and suffering the allergic response.

Following a hoggie bite, if you end up in hospital it will be with a cellulitis (soft tissue infection) which can happen with any animal bite.


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

DavidR said:


> Good advice, but I think Karl Smidt and Robert Mertens are probably turning in their respective graves!
> 
> David.


That was a Boomslang & ..... fill in the blank (cant remeber what got Robert Mertens).... read about it a while ago.


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

Owzy said:


> That was a Boomslang & ..... fill in the blank (cant remeber what got Robert Mertens).... read about it a while ago.


Mertens was killed by a Twig snake (_Thelotornis_ spp.). Obviously these are not the only people to have been killed by rear fanged species, but the most notable that I am aware of.

Anaphylaxis to the venom of rear fanged species is unlikely due to the lack of prior exposure that most keepers receive. If you are working around dried venoms then obviously you need to be a lot more careful!

David.


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