# Is Animal Welfare being neglected by us politically?



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Is Animal Welfare being neglected by us politically?

In today’s’ challenging climate of politics and legislation, are we focusing our attentions in the right places?

The RSPCA – the arch enemy to exotics keepers – are oft criticised for being political, l have done so, but in reality _do they really have a choice?_

Animal welfare is now steeped and surrounded by politics and overwhelmed by legislation. The RSPCA are a charity with a bankrolling income, should they be political? _Or do they have a choice?_

As pro keepers we focus our attention on their political campaigning, and as said we both criticise and condemn them for it, but in recent times, as much aggression as l see aimed at them, can we in reality blame them for their political motive?

I am not denying the facts that are set before us, the United Kingdom need a professional authoritative body that can regulate animal welfare – for who else is there? What other prime body can in reality combat the growing problems that arise with neglect and animal cruelty?

Of course the offensive response to me would be that they do not want to learn about working alongside us?

But is this always the truth?

All the efforts we have made to down them, have not worked and despite some of the more prominent errs they have made in the eyes of the pro keepers and the media, still they thrive.

BUT, are these actually errs?

When you are working on the crusade of animal welfare. What is more important, animal welfare or principals?

Are we therefore committing unnecessary funds into them when perhaps we should be focusing on what they themselves are doing and that is paying attention to animal welfare?

I know we have tried as a body of pro political keepers to make them accountable and have traceability to their actions, but has any of this actually worked? And l also recall the same questions being asked of pro bodies as well in years gone past.

If the RSPCA are in fact writing up Codes of Practice, where are ours, where is our defence to the RSPCA should the need arise.
What would our need be?

Well surely our need would be in the best interests of animal welfare?
We can acknowledge that the RSPCA in the main do not possess the right skills, nor experience when it comes to the likes of the exotics field, and l for one, think that more should be done to update and re-educate their inspectors – but are we slipping into the quagmire of defending those whom are victims to the RSPCA, but neglecting our own efforts into the animal welfare and the production of literature to educate?

We are never going to cease this charity’s status. And should we be doing so?

So why continually waste resources on downing them, when perhaps money raised should be used to aid them to understand us better.

How about this?

Have any keepers ever considered becoming inspectors to the RSPCA, or even applied. What response did you receive?

Rory Matier

Pro Keepers Alliance


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## pam b (Mar 3, 2005)

Animal Welfare comes first every single time, there is no place for principles if one SINGLE animal suffers.
Also the RSPCA have no right being political at all as its against The Charity Commision policy!
They should have been taken to court over this long ago, but nobody has the cash to do so!!!!:bash:


Edit, Cant spell welfare (sigh)


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

pam b said:


> Animal Welfae comes first every single time, there is no place for principles if one SINGLE animal suffers.


:no1: I agree


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## pam b (Mar 3, 2005)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Is Animal Welfare being neglected by us politically?
> 
> In today’s’ challenging climate of politics and legislation, are we focusing our attentions in the right places?
> 
> ...


Didnt answer all the questions, just the ones i choose to answer at this time, i'd like to see how this progresses without commiting myself further.: victory:


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## pam b (Mar 3, 2005)

Wow Rory 66 views, and only 3 posts with 2 posters, is this telling you something?
And if so, are you getting the message?


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## ReptileRescueHull (Dec 23, 2006)

rory you are just as bad at downing the rspca

let me explain someone did do this and was helped to be shot down by you now hes applied to be rspca perm due to your nonsense and the fact the fbh do nothing but slate rspca permanently without first finding out facts something both fbh and tska are good at 

how about this you and fbh put all your money in a pot and set up an exotic zoos or pro keepers shops of the highest standard that work closly with rspca and liscencing

however this wont happen as fbh ans tska will never want to lose the little shouting power they have (will they chris)

im sure chris newomen will have fun readng and slating me but such is life and like i really care all the effort you use in these threads could be more productivly used saving reptiles but oh forgot fbh only want to control for the big suppliers that fund there coffers if anything there worse than rspca anyday look at the bloody cow thread with the hindus the other day 
jesus was there a point, ppl saying rspca are cuaght by the balls rubbish they won full stop proven went nowhere like everything else.

bout time more money was used to rescue rehabilitate and educate FOR FREE

the fact u slate people when they mention rspca just makes you look daft in the eyes of normal thinking people.

the rspca are at least doing something 

also today i spoke with someone that assured me the rspcas veiws where no longer based at banning reptiles in full just stronger rules

and you talk about giving them ammo jesus
think of all the ammo you give everytime someone posts and gets slated a sensible man would sit back and watch your making the forum to political in general full stop 
rspca post this rspca poll that 
try working with them not against them you might actually get somewhere

you mention rspca politics do they have an option no becuase of fbh and tska politics

fbh monthly newsletter yes we recive it "stating" how to deal with an rspca officer. good idea piss of the officer so they think you have something to hide so they come back with liscencing or police.

and as for primate keeping to quote my other post
i personally would like all primate keepers that ive met to be riencarnated as monkeys made to live in undersized cages and lose there hair through stress etc becuase someone wanted a monkey (i know if i was reincarnated as a monkey and stuck in a cage the second i had a chance id rip your head off there only a step down from us (reading recent threads i wonder if there a step above) :lol2:


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

:Na_Na_Na_Na::Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

I thought rorys post was fairly decent in respects to the rspca...

Reptilerescuehull, do you work with the rspca? how long have you been doing so?


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## Storm Python (Jan 10, 2008)

*Wow how heated is this thread going to get!.*

*My main arguement i have if the lack of knowlege rspca officers have on exotics. *
*Not just reptiles. But non uk based exotic species as a whole.*
*There inspectors recieve 12 months on the job training but there basic animal knowlege is seriosly limited.*
*The RSPCA is very well funded so they have no reason not to employ a lot more officers than they currently do.*
*I personally would like to see them work closely with us the keepers.*
*Instead of criticise us.*
*Iv'e had countless visits from them in the last 16 years.*
*All with complaints from ''unknown informers'*
*All complaining about me having ''dangerous'' animals ''free roaming the house'' etc*
*On 2 ocasions i was greated by an rspca officer who looked like she should have been wearing a pre school uniform who even cringed when she said the word ''snake'' *
*They respond so negetively even to the word's''reptile'', ''arachnid'', ''primate'' etc.*
*The 3rd was a very stuck up elderly male officer who told me i was ''causing unnesesary suffering to my 17ft burmese'' As she didnt have sufficient floor space.At the time she was in a 10/5/6 viv(half room conversion).*
*And so on.*
*I have yet to meet an inspector that keeps exotics him/her self.*

*What id like to know is what happens to inspectors during the training process. Why/how are they turned in to ''anti's''.*
*The vast majority of herp keepers are honest, decent people and I for 1 think we need to have a right to speak out in defence of the animals were passionate about.*


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## htf666 (Jun 23, 2007)

Like the member above I would have a problem being told what to do by someone who hasn't the faintest idea what they are talking about.The rspca will never have the support of reptile keepers till they get their house in order.Eddie Munt and co. spent a long time trying to change the attitude of the rspca only to be blocked by the ruling council.Until this body is purged of it's animal rights supporters there can be no support of an organisation which is hell bent on the end of companion animals in our society.I recently had a knock on the door from a young man collecting for the rspca. Instead of telling him to bugger off like I do with all door to door callers I patiently explained why I wouldn't give one penny even if I had just won the lottery.He didn't know that only about 4p out of every pound goes on animals.He didn't know that the local centres have to fund themselves.He didn't know about the multi-million pound headquarters and he didn't know what happens on Wednesdays. The poor lad went away shell shocked. I told him to check out what I had told him on the net and he promised to do so.The poor guy thought he was really helping, I felt quite sorry for him. Likewise the people who join up to try to make a difference must be really frustrated when they find out what really is going on.I respect their attitude to animal welfare but until this organisation is brought into line I, like many reptile keepers will not have a good word to say about them. Harry


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

htf666 said:


> only about 4p out of every pound goes on animals.
> 
> local centres have to fund themselves.
> 
> ...


It's a shame these details (if they can be backed up) aren't up on a site somewhere for everyone to see.


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> IsIf the RSPCA are in fact writing up Codes of Practice, where are ours, where is our defence to the RSPCA should the need arise.
> What would our need be?
> 
> How about this?
> ...


The question Rory is WHO would write such a thing? Who would we all feel comfortable with writing up a document that could in time become the basis of prosecutions against us.

I would be extremely uncomfortable if these COP's weren't written correctly, by people who don't have an understanding of the species.

With regards to the RSPCA, yes having reptile keeping inspectors would be great. I did know one guy who was local to a reptile shop, he was big into inverts and had a good interest in reptiles, he was even in Rolf's animal hospital a few times but not seen him for a good few years now. Anyway, the main thing is that being an inspector would change the fundamental problem with the RSPCA....you need to be on the ruling council.

Now of course that's possible but it would need a good 3000+ people to become members, then nominate a 'reptile / pro-animal' member and then vote them in....much like how the current AR members got in.

Sadly that day will never happen, you wouldn't find 3000 animal keepers to agree on a member to put on the ruling council and even if by a miracle you did, then I'm 100% sure the ruling council will have a 'get out clause' to chuck you back off if you disagreed with the policies.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Surely the point is if the CoPs are correct for the species and therefore become law as to how that species is kept, the ruling councils powers of doing what they want are effectively removed. As long as you keep the animal according to it's CoP then by rights, nobody can touch you since all you would need to do is prove you were adhering to it.

As Scott says, the big question is who writes the things ? But if nobody else does, the RSPCA surely will and going by their Royal Python care sheet this may not be good news. 

I really don't think 'the hobby' will ever write them. Keepers that claim to be experienced cannot even agree on whether or not species of reptile should be kept together or singly and what they should be kept in... so what chance do we have of writing a code of practice for them ?

But... if nobody does it soon, it will be done for us.


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## Storm Python (Jan 10, 2008)

*Heres another thought instead of downright pi##ing rspca inspectors off why not help them by providing a guide with the minimum viv,heating,lighting requirements for kept herps species. *

*I know its a monumental task to undertake but its better that them(rspca) having thousands of logged reports of herp keepers being funny with them.Because all it looks like is that we have something to hide.*
* As you must all realise that every time we refuse them access to our reps even when they have no right to see them they file reports.*
*If keeping reps is going to survive we have to have a united front.*

*I for 1 will not loose the rights to keep reps.*
*But the demise of this ''hobby'' is going to be destroyed from within not from an outside source if were not carefull.*
*How can we stand up & be counted in the face of the RSPCA & gouvernment when we cant agree on the basic principles we should all agree with.*


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## ReptileRescueHull (Dec 23, 2006)

it scares me really how little the forum is enlightened

no1 
a course is already done for the rspca its a 6 week reptile course they have to go through every year.

just thought id add that the course is run by dean who has a passion for keeping reptiles himself and has been running a while now :up:


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

ReptileRescueHull said:


> it scares me really how little the forum is enlightened
> 
> no1
> a course is already done for the rspca its a 6 week reptile course they have to go through every year.
> ...


Why dont you point people in the right direction to proof of this information........if possible.......


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

ReptileRescueHull said:


> no1
> a course is already done for the rspca its a 6 week reptile course they have to go through every year.


6 weeks...

We get 2 people that have been keeping the same species for 15 years arguing over the right way to do it.


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## Storm Python (Jan 10, 2008)

ratboy said:


> 6 weeks...
> 
> We get 2 people that have been keeping the same species for 15 years arguing over the right way to do it.


Exactlt what i was going to say.
And to think were meant to bend over for an organisation that give there staff 6 weeks training.
Also id like to point out that there staff's ''training'' mainly involves handling & not husbandry needs/requirements.


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## ReptileRescueHull (Dec 23, 2006)

actually there made to create a viv and setup not just handling ps dean has something like 20 years knowledge.:whistling2:


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

ReptileRescueHull said:


> actually there made to create a viv and setup not just handling ps dean has something like 20 years knowledge.:whistling2:


so how many differant types of husbandry requirements can they learn and retain the knowledge for in 6 weeks?


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## Storm Python (Jan 10, 2008)

ReptileRescueHull said:


> it scares me really how little the forum is enlightened
> *If were all so little enlightened them give us your infinate wisdom.*
> *That or stop arguing with people.*
> no1
> ...


*Just because its run by somone who is passionate about reptiles himself still doesn't excuse nore explain the RSPCA's hatred a exotic keeping.*


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## Storm Python (Jan 10, 2008)

ReptileRescueHull said:


> actually there made to create a viv and setup not just handling ps dean has something like 20 years knowledge.:whistling2:


So now your telling us that because they have to make & viv & light & heat it & that they are taught by somone who has 20years reptile keeping experience.
that,that makes them qualified enough to comment/judge keepers who have kept healthy reptiles for a damned longer that 6 weeks.
What you also fail to realise is there officers also recieve training on rural animals too. even when these officers are deployed in big city locations.
Just because you can hamanely kill a cow doesnt make you a farmer.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Reptilerescue hull, do you work with the rspca, just asking where your insight coems from as others have also asked and it would help.

I know [i think] you just took over the username here and the rescue so perhaps soem backround?

So are we wrong about the rspca politics or not?

Also, i think stormtrooper said why not educate the rspca inspectors on things instead of making enemies of them...but reading between th elines..i assume they are under the impression, as are you, that they know best anyway? thats what i think the dissagreements are about...


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

ReptileRescueHull said:


> it scares me really how little the forum is enlightened
> 
> no1
> a course is already done for the rspca its a 6 week reptile course they have to go through every year.
> ...


You honestly telling me the rspca inspectors spend 240 hours to learn about reptiles EVERY year? No of course not.

Even IF they had highly trained and well experianced inspectors what difference will that make long term to the reptile keeping hobbyist? Nothing! why? because it is the RSPCA ruling council that makes policy and petitions MP's into making legislation...not the foot soilders in there pretend police uniforms.

People must start to realise that there are TWO sides to the rspca and unfortunately for us they are VERY good at keeping them seperate and hiding the agenda / motives of the council (although perhaps printing in their published material that they are against the sales animals of through PET SHOPS and that they are against the keeping of ANY non-domestic animal, wasn't a good idea..and don't kid yourself into thinking ANY reptile will be deemed dosmestic by the RSPCA or any of it's highly paid advisors/'experts'!)


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## Storm Python (Jan 10, 2008)

DeanThorpe said:


> Reptilerescue hull, do you work with the rspca, just asking where your insight coems from as others have also asked and it would help.
> ...


_*Dean this quote came directly from there website.''we fully support and uphold the RSPCAS rules regarding reptile keeping in the uk.''*_
*So what there saying is there happy to rescue/rehome reptiles but agree that they have no place in the uk.*
*A Contradiction at its extreme i think.*


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

As much as I agree that 6 weeks a year is really not enough to know how to do one species well, let alone the hundreds that are kept in captivity in the UK.

I think the thread is actually about is politics more important than the welfare of the animals we keep ?

As all we are doing is arguing about whether the RSPCA are up to the job of policing the AWA... it would imply that it is ?

We seem to be stuck on the point of who should be writing the CoP's for the keeping of reptiles bearing in mind the welfare of our animals depends on them.


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

The ONLY way forward I would suggest is for either the IHS or BHS to step in and take the reigns.

I would suggest that a simple format is agreed, this would be agreed on a voting majority by the IHS & BHS membership (remember everyone is allowed to join either society).

Once a format is agreed, then CoP's can be drafted by ANYONE who cares to make the effort.

They can then be passed over to CoP panel (a selection of 20 - 30 people who can be voted onto the panel, again via IHS or BHS). The panel will then amend, reject or accept the CoP for each species. Again majority rule on the panel.

I would like the idea of a simple format that takes into account the needs of the animals to allow for long life and successful breeding. It shouldn't focus on too many fine details but instead allow for a wide range of methods to allow the end result...good health, long life and willingness to breed.


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

pam b said:


> Wow Rory 66 views, and only 3 posts with 2 posters, is this telling you something?
> And if so, are you getting the message?


I have noticed since this section has been up, that the majority of people posting here go away and mull over what they're about to say. So they will come back at a later time and make a very long post with the information and their message.



StormTrooper said:


> *Heres another thought instead of downright pi##ing rspca inspectors off why not help them by providing a guide with the minimum viv,heating,lighting requirements for kept herps species. *
> 
> *I know its a monumental task to undertake but its better that them(rspca) having thousands of logged reports of herp keepers being funny with them.Because all it looks like is that we have something to hide.*
> *As you must all realise that every time we refuse them access to our reps even when they have no right to see them they file reports.*
> ...


Someone to supply that kind of information would be required to have some sort of certification in order to provide it, aswell as many years experience aswell as published papers providing their findings to back up their statements and facts. I doubt many of us on these forums can go write up an article and get a body such as the RSPCA and even people like Chris Newman and the FBH to recognise it, because most of us are herp keepers and havent done any real research etc. For example, how many of you have gone and watched these animals that you keep, in their own habitat in the wild?



ReptileRescueHull said:


> it scares me really how little the forum is enlightened
> 
> no1
> a course is already done for the rspca its a 6 week reptile course they have to go through every year.
> ...


People come on these forums, people state they know stuff. And will provide the information the next day, and that it will blow us away, or surprise us. Yet we rarely get to see this kind of information, so. My question is.. Why don't a few of the people who have access to this information (Without it being illegal and private and so on) show us all the facts we should be able to read and see? Surely each week it'll take say 3-5 people an hour each, as they always seem to read the info in their own time, why not write a thread each week keeping people up to date and so on? Or am i talking rubbish here?



Crownan said:


> Why dont you point people in the right direction to proof of this information........if possible.......


It is possible. Just most people don't want to give out that kind of information.


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## pam b (Mar 3, 2005)

Point taken Trice,
I'll start by backing up one of my statements.

Speaking Out-Guidance on Campaigning and Political Activity by Charities


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

pam b said:


> Point taken Trice,
> I'll start by backing up one of my statements.
> 
> Speaking Out-Guidance on Campaigning and Political Activity by Charities


 
Thanks for that pam.

One of the first points i read on that link:


> To be a charity an organisation must be established for charitable purposes only, which are for the public benefit. An organisation will not be charitable if its purposes are political.


And tbh, they should have an opinion, but i don't believe they should have grounds on which to enforce their opinions with regards to laws and so on.


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## ReptileRescueHull (Dec 23, 2006)

Trice said:


> People come on these forums, people state they know stuff. And will provide the information the next day, and that it will blow us away, or surprise us. Yet we rarely get to see this kind of information, so. My question is.. Why don't a few of the people who have access to this information (Without it being illegal and private and so on) show us all the facts we should be able to read and see? Surely each week it'll take say 3-5 people an hour each, as they always seem to read the info in their own time, why not write a thread each week keeping people up to date and so on? Or am i talking rubbish here?
> 
> 
> 
> It is possible. Just most people don't want to give out that kind of information.


its not that it cant be given out, its the fact that anything written in support or against rspca or fbh, one side will read one way one side the other. people tend to read and rather than just reading the info thats allowed to be given both political partys would rather argue about it till it becomes like a game of chinese whispers.

i would love to post some of some of the information we have here i cant why because i can garantee that someone would undoubtably slate it within seconds of the posting.

so now most people that hold the info wont post whats going on personally i think a section of the forum should be designed that any that posts politically on a thread should be removed maybe then people would once again put up the info they have. 

the info some people have is sensitive and they can only giv limited parts they cant reply with more info they can only give what there allowed to or break the rules themselves

the same reason anthony could not post details to maureen on a previous thread yet would have spoken on the phone.


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

ReptileRescueHull said:


> its not that it cant be given out, its the fact that anything written in support or against rspca or fbh, one side will read one way one side the other. people tend to read and rather than just reading the info thats allowed to be given both political partys would rather argue about it till it becomes like a game of chinese whispers.
> 
> i would love to post some of some of the information we have here i cant why because i can garantee that someone would undoubtably slate it within seconds of the posting.
> 
> ...


It's not that, It's the simple fact people are throwing around allegations and statements, (not pointing the finger at anyone) with no real substantial and in concrete evidence. 

Recently we had someone come on here, state he would put up the info the next day whilst at work, but nothing came of it. When i brought that person up about it, what did i get? "oh.. you're just picking on me" but in other words. Simple fact is, alot of the people either throw these statements about based on word of mouth or their own beliefs, with no real evidence to back it up.

Tbh, All this time trying to fight with these large organisations surely are just going no where, just a game of tug-o-war?


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

StormTrooper said:


> So now your telling us that because they have to make & viv & light & heat it & that they are taught by somone who has 20years reptile keeping experience.
> that,that makes them qualified enough to comment/judge keepers who have kept healthy reptiles for a damned longer that 6 weeks.
> What you also fail to realise is there officers also recieve training on rural animals too. even when these officers are deployed in big city locations.
> Just because you can hamanely kill a cow doesnt make you a farmer.


here! Here couldn't put it better myself:no1:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

ReptileRescueHull said:


> its not that it cant be given out, its the fact that anything written in support or against rspca or fbh, one side will read one way one side the other. people tend to read and rather than just reading the info thats allowed to be given both political partys would rather argue about it till it becomes like a game of chinese whispers.
> 
> i would love to post some of some of the information we have here i cant why because i can garantee that someone would undoubtably slate it within seconds of the posting.
> 
> ...



Hang on i am confused now are you saying that your Tina or Ant? and i cant see why the information couldn't be given over by PM?? and wouldnt it be better to give over the information to get people to have more faith in the RSPCA as at the moment i would say 95% of keepers have little or no faith in the RSPCA, personally i feel that there money would be better spent doing there rescue centres up rather than poltics and adverts, i have been in alot of RSPCA centres across the UK with college and we found most of them below par! i am certain there money could be better spent.



> And tbh, they should have an opinion, but i don't believe they should have grounds on which to enforce their opinions with regards to laws and so on.


i totally agree everyone is entitled to there own opinions but there should never be forced onto someone else!


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## pam b (Mar 3, 2005)

Going back to the original thread...................

Animals and politics shouldnt mix, politics is all about money when you boil it all down to the crud, charities have no place dabbling in politics as its costly and charity begins at home so they should be improving there own domain not trying to alter everyone elses to fit their mould.
Now i agree the animals do need someone to speak on their behalf, but it shouldnt be someone so politically blickered they miss the goddamn point of it all, and it should be policed to make sure funds go to the right place and not to line fat cat pockets or aid anyone other THAN the animals.
Easier said than done, ego's and self gratification always seem to get in the way, and thats wrong when animals are suffering.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

pam b said:


> Going back to the original thread...................
> 
> Animals and politics shouldnt mix, politics is all about money when you boil it all down to the crud, charities have no place dabbling in politics as its costly and charity begins at home so they should be improving there own domain not trying to alter everyone elses to fit their mould.
> Now i agree the animals do need someone to speak on their behalf, but it shouldnt be someone so politically blickered they miss the goddamn point of it all, and it should be policed to make sure funds go to the right place and not to line fat cat pockets or aid anyone other THAN the animals.
> Easier said than done, ego's and self gratification always seem to get in the way, and thats wrong when animals are suffering.


i totally agree, and sorry for going offtopic :blush: if you look at smaller charities (animal based) there are more for the animals better set-ups better everything then the bigger ones that are also politcal there animals enclosures are no way as good IMHO ... your either in it for the money or your in it for the animals you cant do both


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## ReptileRescueHull (Dec 23, 2006)

bosshogg said:


> Hang on i am confused now are you saying that your Tina or Ant? and i cant see why the information couldn't be given over by PM?? and wouldnt it be better to give over the information to get people to have more faith in the RSPCA as at the moment i would say 95% of keepers have little or no faith in the RSPCA, personally i feel that there money would be better spent doing there rescue centres up rather than poltics and adverts, i have been in alot of RSPCA centres across the UK with college and we found most of them below par! i am certain there money could be better spent.
> 
> 
> 
> i totally agree everyone is entitled to there own opinions but there should never be forced onto someone else!


anthony will not post on these forums anymore and you know why boss

p.s how are you and slitherin i mean trev !!! cough*** getting on selling that snake on the other thread (yes i read all the threads just like you)

information on any rspca on going investigation is mainly confidential. anthony gave a little info as much as was allowed really personaly id have given none at all.

boss hogg you had info on the shop itself why dont you describe its conditions to everyone.

i disagree with your above statement. and say this to you, if you see someone swinging a lizard buy its tail (you know the type of moron i mean) do you give an opinion or kick him in the nuts and run off with the lizard
(extreme i know but suiting)
it a matter of opinion and the situation


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

ReptileRescueHull said:


> anthony will not post on these forums anymore and you know why boss
> 
> p.s how are you and slitherin i mean trev !!! cough*** getting on selling that snake on the other thread (yes i read all the threads just like you)
> 
> ...


the snake has nothing to do with me! if it was mine i wouldn't be selling anyway as he's gorgeous:flrt: and i am not going to get into an argument and going over a discussion that doesn't even belong on this thread you seem like making up lies about me and i cant be running around all the time having to put them straight... isn't the point of this thread, i am starting to find it very petty i and personal in the other thread i made an attempt to put this silly dispute behind us (even though i haven't done anything wrong) but it looks like you and Ant want to keep it going.

as for the "swinging a lizard by its tail" it is totally different to the point i was making! the point i was making that why we should jepadise the health of the reptiles we have have spent years keeping healthy just because some animal body decides there way is best. i have seen the standards there think are suitable and i would never think of keeping reps in them, i still stand by my last post you cant be in it for politics and the animals as the animals end up suffering as a result.


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

ReptileRescueHull said:


> p.s how are you and slitherin i mean trev !!! cough*** getting on selling that snake on the other thread


:Na_Na_Na_Na::Na_Na_Na_Na:hehehehe


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Incubuss said:


> :Na_Na_Na_Na::Na_Na_Na_Na:hehehehe


incubuss why don't you stick to the thread oh by the off topic (sorry Rory) Shane is still waiting for your visit and £30 

i have a question for you RRH why associate with a animal organisation that has moved away from the animals more into politics why not support the ones that still do care for the animals ?

also to Rory and Chris is there info on these COP that are been made up by the RSPCA where people can add comments or are there just doing them without research???


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

bosshogg said:


> incubuss why don't you stick to the thread oh by the off topic (sorry Rory) Shane is still waiting for your visit and £30


How would you know this if wasnt involved with Shane (Slitherin)? If any body owes anybody £30 its the other way round; he owes me for caring for the animals he didnt know how to care for. 

Ill now leave thread so it can get back on topic.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Incubuss said:


> How would you know this if wasnt involved with Shane (Slitherin)? If any body owes anybody £30 its the other way round; he owes me for caring for the animals he didnt know how to care for.
> 
> Ill now leave thread so it can get back on topic.


*sigh* i will sy this ONE last time i am NOT involved with SHANE i go in ALL reptile shops in Hull, including *reptile land, hull pets and gardens, snake and dragons, 4Pets, Tony Cooks, petsrright and Newland *before Pete and vicky closed down (pesonal friends) does that mean i am involved with them all?? and if we caring for his animals that must be Newland taking that we were in there very very regular! Pete made nice coffee, i cant see how we never met you as you were caring for his animals??????????????????

again i apologise for going off topic but sick of people taking digs at us when there ill informed with pure tripe.

i am going to bed now as i HAVE a job to go to and cant be up till silly o'clock laughing at the tripe some member keep spouting


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

bosshogg said:


> *sigh* i will sy this ONE last time i am NOT involved with SHANE i go in ALL reptile shops in Hull, including *reptile land, hull pets and gardens, snake and dragons, 4Pets, Tony Cooks, petsrright and Newland *before Pete and vicky closed down (pesonal friends) does that mean i am involved with them all?? and if we caring for his animals that must be Newland taking that we were in there very very regular! Pete made nice coffee, i cant see how we never met you as you were caring for his animals??????????????????
> 
> again i apologise for going off topic but sick of people taking digs at us when there ill informed with pure tripe.
> 
> i am going to bed now as i HAVE a job to go to and cant be up till silly o'clock laughing at the tripe some member keep spouting


Ah, so you know my mates shop then? Good friend of mine. I should have seen you there by now, as I spend a good amount of time there with him and his staff.

The last time I knew you were there was when you were trying to sell your light guards. Hmmm.

Well, maybe next time.


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

Incubuss said:


> Ill now leave thread so it can get back on topic.


Sorry, had a change of heart. So how are Shanes WC stock doing? Are they upto CB standards yet?


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Incubuss said:


> Sorry, had a change of heart. So how are Shanes WC stock doing? Are they upto CB standards yet?


what i have had a enough now stop talking complete and utter tripe I DO NOT HAVE ANY OF SHANES STOCK HERE I DO NOT TAKE IN WC AND GET IT TO CB STANDARDS in fact i have never bought ANYTHING from preadtors, i am really pissed off now. do you have nothing better to do then make up lies?? do you even have anything to back this up????????? no cos i dont do bloody do it :censor::censor::censor:

now go back to the "king" (so funny) and kiss his feet as i have had enough putting these stupid personal lies straight


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Any chance we can keep this on thread topic please?

R


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Any chance we can keep this on thread topic please?
> 
> R


yes sorry Rory:blush:


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

edit. Thinking about it, its not helpfull at all.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

With this thread, l have been asked if l am changing the colour of my flags?

No, not really.

Yes to those whom have commented, l have been critical of them in the past [RSPCA], and l dare say l will be critical of them in the future.

Animal Welfare is paramount, quite probably more so since the updating of the animal welfare act, passed last year. It is now back in the focus of today’s legislation, and as such this subject is now surrounded by politics.
Keepers did not get involved with their animals for politics but through passion, and enthusiasm. A genuine interest in their charges.

This thread was of two halves; RSPCA & CoP’s – but only one issue in the main, which was the welfare of animals.

Has the RSPCA become too political and did they, do they have a choice?

Yes l believe the RSPCA HQ is political, yes they have a choice and they have taken the path they are on.

But, what l am saying is this, and this is not forgetting that they are a charity; with everything that is going on with this issue, is there a choice for any organisation or a charity in this case, to not be political? Whether this is right or wrong as laid out in the rulings of the commission? That was the question.

The Charity commission has lain out that a charity should not be political, but yet the RSPCA are, or are they?

They do not stress that they are political, they do stress that animal welfare is their prime concern, and as l have said, the legislation of today’s climate has made Animal Welfare political. So working on that guise are the RSPCA political or are they merely exercising their concerns in a political market? As someone said to me recently, ‘the RSPCA could not avoid the politics due to the sheer size of their charity’.

They are a political animal, there is – tbh – no denying this. The Headquarters make their views known, very well known. The franchisees that sit below them, the Local centres l do not believe to be as politically motivated as their leading brand is. Like the keepers here, l am also concerned over the RSPCA and the way they are known and seen to conduct themselves. But what l was trying to focus on was the topic of animal welfare and was it being neglected for the sake of the politics that surround the legislation?

The point behind the thread is this, the RSPCA are either writing codes of practice or declining others, so one can not say that they have not been busy. Animal welfare in whatever form they concentrate on is being looked at seriously. Why do they keep backing out of their commitments to codes of practice previously written? Why back out of the rabbits, why back out of the primates? 

WHY?

Political? Not getting their way? Not happy with the completed product? Not happy with the content? Were the CoP’s not structured properly? Not tough enough, too tough? Or could it be said if we listened to the politics that the RSPCA does not wish to handle in/under their management species that are considered too difficult? 

The Hidden agenda is often talked of, and if we look at politically correct responses to questions posed to them, we can see no hidden anything, but perhaps there is one there, to make like easier for them, the animals, the keepers?

I do not know the answers to these questions, what l do think however is this:

We need to see Exotic Species CoP’s to ensure that we have a defence in place ……….

"If the RSPCA are in fact writing up Codes of Practice, where are ours, where is our defence to the RSPCA should the need arise". My question in this thread, and a response from another forum.

‘But Codes are NOT a defence Rory - Defra states that on its Website. However, failure to follow a Code could result in prosecution!
How double Dutch is that?!’

The Reptile Codes of Practice need to be addressed, as difficult as that is going to be. But the reptile keeper, private keepers must ask louder than they are doing, where are they, what is being done about them, who is writing them, has the work started yet? Can we the private keeper help?
If the likes of the RSPCA write up a code on a reptile, and they see that as gospel, because the reptile community does not have a code in place, then what can they use as comparison to whether a keeper has adhered to the code correctly or not? 

[Past experience would display to us, that they do lack knowledge in certain fields, reptiles and exotics are these fields].

They can not, and as that response to me from another forum stated – ‘However, failure to follow a Code could result in prosecution!’

If the exotic market does not have codes in place, and any keeper finds themselves in court, under prosecution for breaking the code, what chance do we have then?

Yes to the asker, l am working on a primate code, with 12 other keepers, and 5 observers, and it is slow process, and when it completed l will submit it to those who wish to see it for comment, editing, criticism, mocking or rejection.

And we will show it on the new Website as the guide to what we are working on as a guide to primate keeping in the 21st century.

In a series of questions recently posed to the RSPCA 

Does the RSPCA believe there are any species of animal, which should not be kept as pets, even if correctly licensed under the current legislation?

‘Some animals, such as primates, require specialised care which is beyond the scope of the vast majority of people and the RSPCA believes they should not be kept as pets on welfare grounds. The Animal Welfare Act introduced a legal obligation for owners to provide for all of an animal’s needs and calls on all prospective owners to think carefully about whether they can care for an animal properly - whether it be a more unusual wild animal in captivity, such as an iguana or a more common pet such as a guinea pig or dog’. 


Chris Newman responded:

This is not an entirely HONEST reply from the RSPCA, rather the typical ‘political correct’ response one would expect!


’The RSPCA were involved on the Primate Working Group, along with their colleagues from Monkey World in Dorset. The purpose of the group was to produce a stringent Code of Practice for private primate keepers. However, the RSPCA and Monkey World wrecked this code as they both objected to ANY primates being kept by private keepers, and argued that a total ban was the only thing they would find acceptable’.

And another response from another poster in that forum [Petstreet]
‘Dont think anyone on here wants to see the continuation of small monkeys living in tiny cages in peoples sitting rooms & being treated like an additional child with little coats & hats.... (In these cases I think it’s the owners that need looking at...)’


Without a code in place, to protect the genuine primate keeper, then the likes of this style of keeping as above is what will motivate the likes of the RSPCA and Monkeyworld to continue with a possible prohibition of the keeping of primates in private hands. But should a ban go ahead, what will they then deem as an unacceptable ‘pet?’


My fear is this, and this should be yours also.

The politics are out there from both of the sides, whether we like it or not. But what we should be addressing equally as much as the visible opposition is this, Animal welfare is the concern of all responsible parties, so instead of browbeating or discrediting the industry, the hobby or the hobbyists with unnecessary politics let us concentrate on addressing what will actually effect the way you keep reptiles / [exotics] in your future …………… or not.

We need to address animal husbandry more, we need to address animal welfare, but above everything, we need to concentrate upon what could potentially cease your ability to keep.

Whilst the RSPCA may at first appear to be the extremists and our only opposition, this may not be the case. The entire industry at times also appears to be one of our listed enemies, through either apathy or ignorance to real issues.

R


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