# Fishies for my dad...



## miffikins (Feb 25, 2007)

Hey guys, I'm just after some quick advice, I have kept tropical fish before and have a small tank now with various tetras etc. I am currently planning to plant my existing tank with some java moss and a few easy species of plant.

Anyway....my dad is retired and he has cancer plus some other medical issues which means a lot of the time he isn't well enough to leave the house and understandably he gets very bored and frustrated as he used to be very active. He really likes fish and so me and my OH were thinking of getting him a small, maybe 2ft tropical set-up for his birthday in a few months time. I think it will give him something to do but at the same time I don't want it to be hard for him to look after. I know he would love a tropical set-up but when we have talked about he is worried that it will be too hard for him to maintain.

Soooo.....can anyone suggest some hardy easy to keep species to start him off with, not so bothered about plants as we can get him some realistic looking fake ones....

Any help would be great, cheers

: victory:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

i would set the tank up using under gravel filters as you dont clean these all you do is now and again wizz around with a gravel cleaner. for hardy fish i would go with the followin


guppies
platys
mollies
corries
bristlnoses
maybe if he likes them a pair of honey gouramis
these are hardy fish but pretty at the same time, the bristlnoses also dont get big and will keep his glass clean as they eat algea.


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## alpharoyals (Nov 21, 2007)

I personally wouldnt use an under gravel filter and wouldnt use fake plants, all plants are easy to maintain and not only look better but will help absorb bad nutrients in the water. 
There are tons of different tetras that are available but I find if you buy something too common you get bored of them too quickly so maybe get Endler Guppies or rainbow fish or some small plecs like Bulldog plecs or Gold Nuggets.

If your dad wants to go down the planted route avoid big fish as they will bash the plants and avoid planted eaters, Silver dollars and Tin Foil barbs...

Good luck : victory:


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## miffikins (Feb 25, 2007)

Thanks guys! A mate who is into his fish told me to stick to a normal filter, a fluval 1 should be ok for this size shouldn't it??

If all goes well with my java moss and 'easy' plants I'll get them for him too. A couple of my mates are into their planted aquaria and have the CO2 kerfuffle that I don't understand so I want to avoid any delicate plant species.

I was thinking of some dwarf corys, some tetras perhaps lemon ones as I have found them to be hardy. Are there any smaller species of loach that would be suitable??

Cheers again

: victory:


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

don't get a fluval. Not the most reliable filter in the world. If you can get an Eheim Aquaball, or a Rena Filstar IV2. Both good quality filter, reliable and aren't too expensive


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## miffikins (Feb 25, 2007)

Cheers mike! One of my mates works in an aquatics centre so I'll see if he can get it trade  I have asked him about this too but I wanted some other opinions too, always the best way I think!

Thanks : victory:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

well would disagree one the undergravels but not the point of the thread :whistling2:


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## miffikins (Feb 25, 2007)

What are the pros and cons of undergravels and normal ones?? I was going for sand as a substrate, but if undergravels seem better suited for him then I can just change, no problems

: victory:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

1: easy to install no moving parts to break or go wrong
2: invisble-no horrible looking blosck taking up room in filter- also with livebearers UGF will not suck babie fish up
3: quickest of the filters to get a good microbial life- so better for your fish
4: cheap to buy and never break and ned replacing
5: versatile- you can add powerheads and other things to boost them
6: very easy to clean one a month (with the tank your thinking about) a quick clean with a gravel clean and your done.

cons

1: can cause a problem with live plants ( i got about this by using small terracotta pots to plant them in and my plants grow brill)

2: when they do need a full clean (i have yet to do one on any of my tanks and they have been set up years) they are awfull

3: the amount of gravel you need in a tank (3" plus) for UGF to work properly

4: there the fave hiding place for fish like Clown, Kuhli Loaches, Gobies, Blennies, but there come out when hungry!

5: urm cant think of anything else but i am sure someone will point some out.

i ahve nothing against over filters, i use external filters myself on two of my tanks, but i just love UGF for ease, and a tropical fish shop keeper( one of them proper old types) used UGF in all his tanks i wont get better quality water anywhere, and of course with it been a shop it had high stocking numbers.

its totally up to you of course.
Clare


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## miffikins (Feb 25, 2007)

Thanks for that Clare, always good to know the pros and cons of things. I'll have a think about it, his birthday isn't til June and I have to convince my mother first, for some weird reason she hates aquariums but is totally find with the 3x1 with Jeremy (large very old goldfish)....weird....

Thanks

: victory:


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

bosshogg said:


> 1: easy to install no moving parts to break or go wrong
> 2: invisble-no horrible looking blosck taking up room in filter- also with livebearers UGF will not suck babie fish up
> 3: quickest of the filters to get a good microbial life- so better for your fish
> 4: cheap to buy and never break and ned replacing
> ...


not usual for someone your age to be an undergravel advocate but quite correct in your recommendation .:notworthy:

Usually dismissed by people who don`t know how filtration works.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

darwengray said:


> not usual for someone your age to be an undergravel advocate but quite correct in your recommendation .:notworthy:
> 
> Usually dismissed by people who don`t know how filtration works.


all my tanks except for one what house large catfish are run on Undergravels, i was taught by a well know fish keeper about filtration he is the one i was on about the tropical fish owner, he run his shop for 40years everything was on UGF sadly he retired a couple years back. i hate it when people dismiss UGF as not very good.


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

they are great for smallers tanks, but anything over 15gal should have a cannister or HOB, me thinks. :crazy:

Loaches you could have:
Kuhli loach - like an eel, keep in groups of about 6
Chain Loach - very rare, about £5 each. tiny little things but gorgeous, keep in groups of t least 6.

thats all i can think of lol


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## miffikins (Feb 25, 2007)

Hmmm I shall have a think about the filter...

I saw some chain loaches today, went to mill aquatics with a few of my mates who are all into fishies, one is in the throws of setting up a fully planted tank which is goin to look awesome.....but yeah the chain loaches were really cute I also like mosquito rasbora but I think everything else might eat them :crazy: plus my dad probably won't even be able to see them :lol2:

: victory:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Esfa said:


> they are great for smallers tanks, but anything over 15gal should have a cannister or HOB, me thinks. :crazy:


i run UGF on 4ft and 5fts but if you call them small :hmm:thats the problem when people dont understand how they run!


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## The Fool (Aug 23, 2007)

Issues with Fluval?
Get a grip people. 

Fluval 105 External would be GREAT for you. I am now fully converted to the External methods. I use a 405 in my Mud Turtle and ive never seen water so crystal. A 106 without trade should be probably around £60 - a lot for a filter i know. 
Ive also heard the Eheim internals are actually up to scratch. now i dont like my Eheim extrnals (i have one in with fish and one with a terrapin) as much as i like my Fluval....i dunno. Personally i'd avoid UGF, but thats my own choice now. 

Regards to fish, personally i wouldnt say livebearers. If they breed then what? Guppies, Mollies, Platies.....nice as they are, little pains. 

Anything thats going to stay small isnt going to be too much of a challenge, and im sure you'll be ofering help too when you can, so i shouldnt imagine the upkeep will be too much for him. A shoal of some small tetras would be good, something bright and colourful like Neons or Cardinals.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Haha, I have been following this thread on and off, and see the usual suspects again in it... I _really_ dont want to argue with anyone... but I clearly have a such different view on UG's to bosshogg and darwengray. 



darwengray said:


> not usual for someone your age to be an undergravel advocate but quite correct in your recommendation .:notworthy:
> 
> Usually dismissed by people who don`t know how filtration works.


lol, like me 



bosshogg said:


> all my tanks except for one what house large catfish are run on Undergravels,


mmmmm....



Esfa said:


> they are great for smallers tanks, but anything over 15gal should have a cannister or HOB, me thinks. :crazy:


Again, as I did in the last thread we had a big fight over, I agree with Esfa. UG's better are for smaller tanks, and I would go for internals for most tanks. 



bosshogg said:


> i run UGF on 4ft and 5fts but if you call them small :hmm:thats the problem when people dont understand how they run!


mmm.....



Goat said:


> Issues with Fluval? [externals]
> Get a grip people.


Completely agree Goat. Go for Fluval externals, or ehiem internals.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Right, I know I said I didn't want to argue, and I *dont*, but this is what I think (although I really am having a hard time finding values of the SA in sponge media and a UG/gravel system.... its mostly about cermic and other new medias). 

I really think that an appropriatley sized internal filter (or an external) will have more surface area than a UG filter. Of course, you need to take into account the gravel. But, a tank with an internal does _also_ still have gravel. Yes, I know, there is less flow over it, but it still has it. 

An internal sponge has a very high SA (as I quoted in the previous thread), and a very high volume turnover rate, so surely it will be more effective at biological filtration?

Then, of course, there is the mechanical filtration. A UG effectively has no mechanical filtration. The gravel needs to siphoned regularly to get rid of it, and it will clog with debris. An internal filter will also clog with debris, but it easily removable, and can be cleaned almost back to new in a few seconds of squeezing it. Cleaning the gravel with a siphon takes a long time, and you cant get to the places under rocks and plants, and is very disturbing. 

Dot get me wrong, I think the practice of cleaning the gravel regularly is a good thing, but it can never be as clean and free of dirt as a (properly maintained) internal or external can. 

Surely you have to agree that the incidence of anaerobic breakdown in a tank with a UG is going to be substantially higher than one with a an internal? 

I think for any new set up, I would recommend an internal. For easiness of cleaning, it has to score highly. And the fact that it has a higher surface area (the figures I quoted in the other thread were: "gravel as a filter media has a (SSA) specific surface area) between 100 to 200 sq. meters per cubic meter. Plastic media 200 to 300, ceramic 250 to 350, matting 300 to 400, and foam (best) 400 to 500"). 

Also, if you take into account the fact that chemical filtration can easily be added, and the filter sponge can be easily swapped for sythetic media, as I have done with externals a lot (with a _huge_ SA, for example one type says it needs one 1-liter bag of Ceramic Rings for every 75 U.S. gallons (285 L) of aquarium water [ Aquarium Pharmaceuticals FilStar Ceramic Rings (Saltwater Aquarium Supplies > Filters > Replacement Cartridges > For Canisters ) ] ), and the amount of effort needed for mechanical filtration of both types, surely internal/external is better than a UG?

Also check out:
UGF and the Dealer


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## RussianTort55 (Jun 9, 2007)

Get a nice 3 foot tank, fluval 3+ filter, sand few plants. Maybe you should buy a book and let your dad pic the fish he likes


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## RussianTort55 (Jun 9, 2007)

undergravel filters are past tech, it would be like using a tape player when you could use an MP3. 
UGF are murder for getting blocked and you have to rip your tank apart to get to them. I dont feel there is any need to use them nowdays.


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## miffikins (Feb 25, 2007)

Thanks for your input guys, I really don't have a good grasp of how filtration works, it seems much more complicated than I perceive it to be....

I mean we have a filter and we clean the sponges every so often, thats about my knowledge on filtration :lol2:

I would quite like to use sand as I think it looks nice and it will be easier to see the fish, but I'm goin to try it out with my tank first...

: victory:


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## The Fool (Aug 23, 2007)

Be wary of sand, it has a beautiful ability of destroying filters if it gets in there in large quantities!


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

miffikins said:


> I would quite like to use sand
> : victory:


I would agree with Goat here:



Goat said:


> Be wary of sand, it has a beautiful ability of destroying filters if it gets in there in large quantities!


Just be careful, thats all. I have used it in a few different tanks, and love the look of it, but it does have a habbit of mashing up the propellers in pumps if it gets in. It also pools in the bottom of canister filters. 

But yeh, I'll look forward to pictures!

(PS, sorry about my rant a couple of pages back... it was to do with an argument I had with those two on a different thread, so I thought I would do a post stating my reasons...)


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

AshMashMash said:


> I would agree with Goat here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the trouble is you keep lifting stuff off the internet as though its gospel ,you haven`t personally tried different types of filter so are in no position to comment.

please only comment from personal experience.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

Esfa said:


> they are great for smallers tanks, but anything over 15gal should have a cannister or HOB, me thinks. :crazy:
> 
> Loaches you could have:
> Kuhli loach - like an eel, keep in groups of about 6
> ...


you and ashmash are birds of a feather you are far too young for your comments to have much value ,how many different filters have you personally compared ? please only comment from personal experience not from what you have read on the internet.


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## The Fool (Aug 23, 2007)

Hang on, not only does this thread not exist so you can inform people of your views on other member/s, but what does age have to do with anything?? 

Nothing.

As far as what you have said about posting from experience to the other guy, if he isnt then i am, and maybe i had a bad experience with Undergravel Filtration but i would far rather spend mymoney on something thats more accessible and easy to clean, and that does the job i know an external will do. 

Now, back to topic??


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

darwengray said:


> the trouble is you keep lifting stuff off the internet as though its gospel ,you haven`t personally tried different types of filter so are in no position to comment.
> 
> please only comment from personal experience.


I'm sorry, but no. You said that last time, it doesn't have to be from personal experience. Besides, if you are actually commenting on the post you quoted there, on sand in filters, all of that is from personal experience anyway. And as for 'lifting stuff off the internet': I am trying to provide evidence for you. I dont have any books on the matter (here), so all i can do is try to find anything on the internet that might help. 

I am having a hard time finding values of SA of the different filter types, which is really what I need. So, using _that_ evidence, I cannot prove the argument either way. 



darwengray said:


> you and ashmash are birds of a feather you are far too young for your comments to have much value ,how many different filters have you personally compared ? please only comment from personal experience not from what you have read on the internet.


Again, as goat says, age has nothing to do with it. So are you not going to put forward any construcive arguments then? Are you just going to ignore _any_ view I have on things, whatever evidence I have, because I am youger than you? 



Goat said:


> i would far rather spend mymoney on something thats more accessible and easy to clean, and that does the job i know an external will do.


To the OP: sorry for taking up your thread... but it _is_ on topic (except the bits about each other...) when talking about which is better. I would personally go for intnernal or external, not a UG. But have a read, and decide.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

well, at any rate, get massive filtration and for fish, i'd suggest a 'pet' fish instead of a group. guys often like a single fish that can stand on it's own. a jack demsey is a good looker and is very hardy. they also have spirit and don't grow insanely large. just a suggestion..... also i like aqua clear h.o.t. filters....:whistling2:


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## miffikins (Feb 25, 2007)

AshMashMash said:


> To the OP: sorry for taking up your thread... but it _is_ on topic (except the bits about each other...) when talking about which is better. I would personally go for intnernal or external, not a UG. But have a read, and decide.


It is on topic but I'd rather people not 'bash' others methods and experience. I'm pretty sure that over a forum everyone does not know the exact level of other peoples experience, thus leaving no room for people to comment on it so please keep it nice peeps

: victory:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

sorry AshMashMash but i dont think i have had an argument with anyone on another topic :crazy: well i suspose with sand this is actually where UGF have an advantage as i have used UGF and have sand (mudskippers) you can buy a sheet of a mesh type stuff that you lay on top of the gravel then put your sand ontop of that and it still pulls the water through but dosent pull the gravel 

at the end of the say you have plenty of time to read up all difernt filters and decied wich one you want to use.
Clare


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

darwengray said:


> you and ashmash are birds of a feather you are far too young for your comments to have much value ,how many different filters have you personally compared ? please only comment from personal experience not from what you have read on the internet.


:lol2::lol2::lol2:

you know nothing about me, thanks.

I use an undergravel filter in a 5gal at the moment. I think its fine in there, but i would never use one in my 35gal considering it will be clogged up within days from the roots.

Remember, love, knowledge may come from age, but wisdom doesnt.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i've always liked u.g. filters.... they rock. call me old fashioned....:whistling2:


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

Why dont you just get a juwel tank? got lights, heater, INTERNAL filter. :whistling2:


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## Convict (Feb 21, 2008)

i have a 21gallon tank with UGF and its been fine for years, never clogs up and stops, unlike most hang on back type filters.

have had loads of different filters, not an external yet, but UGF has been my fav, looks most tidy too if you can hide it behind a log

tiger barbs are a nice fish to keep


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Esfa said:


> :lol2::lol2::lol2:
> 
> you know nothing about me, thanks.
> 
> ...


dont know why you keep saying there get clogged i have one in my heavy planted tank its never got clogged?? actually on all my tanks they have never got clogged and at one time i had other 40 tanks running on UGF i only recently have passed on lots of my fish to fellow keepers as we are trying to move and carting 40 odd fish tanks to a new house is not fun! so we now onlt have 11 tanks 10 of them on UGF they have been set up over 5years no problem.


Clare


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

you just have to vaccum the gravel during water changes to keep them clean and stirred.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

HABU said:


> you just have to vaccum the gravel during water changes to keep them clean and stirred.


exactly well said Habu


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

HABU said:


> you just have to vaccum the gravel during water changes to keep them clean and stirred.


I cant, i have tetraplant substrate under a thin layer of sand. :crazy:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Esfa said:


> I cant, i have tetraplant substrate under a thin layer of sand. :crazy:


that's an exception....


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## Boothy (Feb 26, 2008)

coral platties are realy easy 2 keep. I have 5 nd hav had no problems at all. Mine had babies so 5 turned into bout 20 nd i still hav thm bt shud b sellin thm soon, lol.


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