# Anyone bought rats from KKpets



## rosie75 (Oct 8, 2009)

Just wondering how the rats are doing if you have?
I bought one little boy and I don't think he is in the best of health


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I've not heard of them personally (actually I think I have but can't remember why, definitely seen their site before), but I would say the first port of call other than the vet would be the breeder. If you haven't already informed them that is. 

What are his symptoms?


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

Welcome Page


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Are they a member here? It would be very unfair to go down this route otherwise. : victory:


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## rosie75 (Oct 8, 2009)

Yes, I have contacted the breeder, but the response wasn't what I was expecting
He was lethargic when I met him (this is why I decided to bring him home)
Figured out, he didn't know how to use water bottle, I have taught him now and he seems to have perked up
Breeder says he was drinking fine before he left
He is small for his age
Breeder has given me 3 different ages for him + says it was a large litter of 16
He has started sneezing, his sister was doing this when I visited the breeder, obv respiratory
Breeder says it's a cold 
He is getting a bit better now, the vet has just advised me to kepe an eye on him for now
I said I wanted to make her aware because of his siblings
Breeder says she contacted everyone and their babies are fine
My main aim to to make people aware if they have bought theirs from the same litter


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## rosie75 (Oct 8, 2009)

No, I don't think they are, 
I wasn't trying to be unfair, just wanted to know if anyone else has had a problem from the litter, or if my little one was just an unfortunate soul


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

i think rats can solmetimes sneeze when a little upset (as in in a new home, they may be a little stressed etc) mine did it for a bit when i got them, new home and all..


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

That's a shame, hope he feels much better soon. Without wanting to offend though this is a very good caution to other people to check the health of rats before bringing them home, as you say yourself you bought him while he was ill/lethargic and I'm assuming you did that because you felt sorry for him (as we all feel in those situations). Without being specific to this case as I feel it's unfair to go on one side, it's always best to walk away from sick babies - and no decent breeder would have visibly ill rats available for sale (or even healthy rats had their littermates come down with respiratory infections, especially after recent SDAV outbreaks!). Just gives decent breeders a really bad name.

Wishing you the very best of luck with him xx


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Quoted from their site......


"We pride ourselves with being one of the very few breeders in the country that handle all our animals and their babies from birth, daily and consistantly. As a result of this we can produce fully hand tamed and socialised babies, so making excellent pets for all ages. "


I'm afraid that is a very misleading statement in itself as I know of many, if not all, reputable breeders of rodents, who hadnde from birth and can 'produce fully hand tame and socialised babies'. I'm damn sure my babies are very sociable and hand tame in fact I 'pride myself' in the fact that my babies are so friendly even a 5 year old can handle them at a very young age.


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## Horatio (Jul 16, 2009)

Agreed, Saxon.

Have you taken the wee man to the vet? Also, I don't know if he is by himself or if you have others rats of the same age, but if he doesn't have company it won't be helping him.


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## rosie75 (Oct 8, 2009)

Thank you all for your comments
There is more that concerns me, but I am not here to slate people
I know my situation isn't an isolated incident, shall we say
I was just wondering if anyone has purchased a rat from them, especially Latikas litter.
In case anyone has bought one to breed from they can be aware.
I phoned the vets when we first got him, he said to keep an eye on him because it could be stress related.
I will book his appointment at the vet Friday if the snuffling continues, as suggested, it may be due to stress
I must say though, this morning he has been out and having a little run around, he actually walks better now, because he used to walk like creeping, tummy dragging on the ground
I am a breeder myself, and have owned rats for 10 years.
This is the first little one I have come across that has been limp
We are in the process of socialising him with our other 2 boys and the cages are side by side 
They all play happily together out of the cage, but he gets so scared of them in a cage (they only sniff him) that he hides under the food bowl and won't budge, so it's a work in progress.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

That creeping sounds like pretty normal (but perhaps a bit excessive) fear behaviour. If you'd only had him hours I would say it was normal, but a well socialised baby shouldn't be like that around other babies. 

I agree with Dawn about the statement about handling, perhaps they were factoring petshops into the equation though, I don't know. Perhaps there aren't many decent breeders near her. 

When I'm saying this I'm not defending anyone, just trying to think of other explanations. I don't know her, and personally don't like the look of the site, but without her actually being a member here I would feel very uncomfortable going further. Perhaps someone could invite them.


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## rosie75 (Oct 8, 2009)

Yes, she is a member on here, just a different name from what they use around the other forums
cutencrazychickbabe


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

I know quite a few people who have either visited them and been disgusted, or who have bought rats underage, underweight and riddled with health issues.
Rosie75 You are correct this isnt the first instance of it....


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## rosie75 (Oct 8, 2009)

I'm so sorry for the people who have bought ill rats from her
I'm not one for trying to slate people, because I know everyone has their own way of doing things, but there is also wrong ways of doing things too
I am glad there is some awareness, because if I had known previously I would never have visited KKpets TBH


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I've heard of them, and although I know the rat fancy can be incredibly bitchy sometimes, I've never heard anything good.

If you go on the big rat forums and search "kkpets", you'll find many a thread. One saying they home at 3.5 weeks. :whip:


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## rosie75 (Oct 8, 2009)

And they other user name the are currently using on here is
Kristen


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## kristen (Aug 29, 2009)

Please dont start an argument on here, the woman who wrote this forum has really upset my girlfriend already with all the nasty comments she has been making on the fancy rat forum. 
we never sell rats under 6 weeks old, the rat she got COULD drink form a water bottle and eat rat food as we have watched it do so for the past week and a half. It has been handled every day from birth as are all our animals, and it was definitely not snezzing or walking weirdly when it was with us, otherwise he would have stayed with us as we were thinking about keeping him anyway until Sandra showed up.
He could just be missing his friends as a reason for his timidness as he was with other boys when he was with us. Not sure if he is with ther boys or not now, but if not i suggest putting him with another and watching him come out of his shell.
She is a breeder near us, so to be honest I wouldnt be suprised if she was doing her best to slate us to get more business for herself.

Lets not turn this into another fancy rat forum argument, and Sandra, if you have anything to say come and say it to me either via phone or in person, not post a load of rubbbish around different forums. If your just going to complain about us on every forum and wont speak nicely to us to ask for help and advice on him, please return him and you can have your money back, but I can assure you there was nothing visably wrong with him when my girlfriend sold him.


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## rosie75 (Oct 8, 2009)

This was posted before the thread on the other forum.
The thread on the other forum wasn't started by myself, and I only commented on the post when I heard others had similar experiences to myself and you said you had changed your ways
I refused to comment anymore on that thread so I PMed you to explain I wanted other owners of Biscuits siblings to be aware. (which you haven't replied to)
I rang you first and you said you had 1 brown boy left for sale, before we arranged for me to visit
Yes, my daughter has started breeding, which I fully made you aware of. I would never try to blacken anyones name to 'get more business for myself'
As it stands, all going well, we are only going to be breeding 3 litters a year, and I already have a waiting list.
As I said in my PM, it's not the money and I wouldn't return him, as I know I can give him the 1-1 attention he needs
I emailed you originally to make you aware of the situation, something you dismissed 
As you keep insisting that your rats have colds, and won't acknowledge the respiratory risk, I thought it only right to ask if anyone has siblings from the litter


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## kristen (Aug 29, 2009)

I am acknowleging the respitory risk, and if the little boy gets the symptoms again I am going to take him to a second vet to get another opinion.
I am just saying you cant tell us we havent changed our ways when we have completely turned them around in the last 3 years.
Biscuit was showing no symptoms of anything while he was with us, maybe the move brought them out into the open if there is anything wrong with him, but he was eating and drinking fine while he was with us for over a week and a half, and he didnt sneeze once.
Im sorry it has happened to you, but you sometimes do get one or two rats that have problems that show up as they get older. It in no way sows the health of the wole litter


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Just out of interest, did this boy have any brothers? And if so, why was he left on his own if you think that his behaviour was down to missing his brothers?


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

If you had an RI in your rattery you shouldn't be rehoming at all!!!

How old was he when rehomed?

If anyone were to slate another breeder to get 'more business' then they'd be wasting their time I think as I've yet to make any money from breeding rats. Youd' ahve to have a warehouse full as I've said in other threads to make money from breeding rodents.
People return for kitts once they know they are getting well handled, healthy, friendly kitts from a breeder. Not because that breeder tells them the next breeder is selling 'bad' rats.

I hope he gets better for you Rosie.


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## rosie75 (Oct 8, 2009)

Biscuit on the right (from KKpets), Toasty on the left (another breeder)
Biscuit is 3 days younger than toasty


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Neither rat looks tiny - rats from different lines will be different sizes and develop at different rates. I had one line that was huge, very quick to develop, and another that was fairly small as young kittens but matured for longer and reached the same sizes, if you get me. If I put one of my old essex line by the side of those at the same age, it's likely mine would be bigger than both, it doesn't mean a lot. Health and temperament (and if it's important to you, type and size at adulthood) count. Don't get me wrong, I don't find weedy kittens/adults particularly appealing (unless they're rescues of course!) but whatever floats your boat lol.


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## kristen (Aug 29, 2009)

The boy had brothers, there is one that we are keeping from her litter and he was with him and another rat from another litter until the day he left us.
Sandra had rats which I think she has introduced to him now, so he may perk up.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

KathyM said:


> Neither rat looks tiny - rats from different lines will be different sizes and develop at different rates. I had one line that was huge, very quick to develop, and another that was fairly small as young kittens but matured for longer and reached the same sizes, if you get me. If I put one of my old essex line by the side of those at the same age, it's likely mine would be bigger than both, it doesn't mean a lot. Health and temperament (and if it's important to you, type and size at adulthood) count. Don't get me wrong, I don't find weedy kittens/adults particularly appealing (unless they're rescues of course!) but whatever floats your boat lol.


I agree with you Kathy,
My powder blue line, at the moment, is smaller than my RB lines and my mink lines.
My rex line on the other hand, even smooth coated kitts in the line, seem to be bloody massive in comparison.
They do seem to 'mature' at about the same sizes though. The smaller lines grow for longer than the bigger kitts. Maturing at around 9-10 months for some reason.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

My capped line are quite small as babies, so I kept most of mine back til 8 weeks.

Unless you've had the baby rat a couple of weeks, it looks fairly normal for a 6 week old rat. Smaller than the other, granted, but big litters and different lines throw out smaller rats sometimes.

Plenty of good food and he'll possibly catch up. Higher protein foods alongside their dried food (eg. cat food, scrambled eggs, porridge, sardines in tom. sauce), curly kale helps a lot, along with a bottle of lactol on the cage alongside their water (or goats milk if it's easier to find).


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

saxon said:


> I agree with you Kathy,
> My powder blue line, at the moment, is smaller than my RB lines and my mink lines.
> My rex line on the other hand, even smooth coated kitts in the line, seem to be bloody massive in comparison.
> They do seem to 'mature' at about the same sizes though. The smaller lines grow for longer than the bigger kitts. Maturing at around 9-10 months for some reason.


LOL I was panicking about the squirrel litter when they were little, that wasn't a big litter and they seemed small in comparison to my essex lot (who were huge to be fair). Look at Harry and Morton now though, they're chunks. And babies on the way, whoo!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Slow growth is much better than rats who grow very quickly initially then put on fat, like earlier in my mink/dove/hooded line. I've a buck who is nearly 1kg who I cant shift the weight off (my foundation buck), and all those in the first litter turned out chunky verging on obese. Luckily a couple of good outcrosses and this current litter seem to be smaller (but growing steadily and stocky rather than fat).


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

My Patch, from the rex litter but a normal coat, has settled down now. He's not as massive compared to the others as he seemed to be. They are all catching up to him now.

I have two lines of russian blue as well. One line has smaller kitts than the other line. Even when having the same number in a litter.

I have my big agouti line that I use as an outcross every few generations to get the size going.
It's working upto press so I should be showing again next year.
Not that I've shown much anyway but I'm hoping to get there next year.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I have one gorgeous stud buck who I used to use as a comparison for others, as he was perfect build, solid, big but not fat. He's now about 18 months old, a bit of middle age spread is starting to set in. He's currently in with a doe and the beggar is too bleeding lazy to do the deed. She's practically sat on him, fluttering her ears, and he's washing his back legs while lying on his back. :lol2: He did it, once. He's tired now though, it's all a bit like hard work.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I sometimes think that the smaller lines are quite cute but it's nice to see them grow eventually!!!


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## rosie75 (Oct 8, 2009)

Biscuit was apparently 6 weeks when I got him, he is now 9.5 weeks old.
There were other concerns I had too with him, but at the age of 9.5 weeks he shouldn't still have his baby fluffy fur
the lads I bred are the same size as the bigger lad in the pic and the same age
Kristen had mentioned that I was making out he was smaller than he actually is, but the berky on the left is average size for the age
When I first got Biscuit he was a lot smaller, I have fed him on lactol, eggfood and porridge along with other varieties of food, but these are his favourite


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

It could be that you were told 'porkies' about this age.
I got a rex berkie last year that was supposed to be 7 weeks. I brought him home and weighed him. he was 49grms.
I put him in with alitter of 3 week olds of mine that weighed approx 60grms and he thrived.
I beleive he was no more than 4 weeks when I got him, judged by behaviour, but he's a lovely chunk of a boy now at almost 15 months old.
He is also one of the friendliest boys, that I've bought in, that I've ever had.

I'd keep your boy on higher protein diet for a little longer than usual to give him the push he may need to gain a nice size at maturity.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I wouldn't say it was impossible for him to be 9.5 weeks, moults aren't always accurate, they depend on development. He could just be a particularly weedy 9.5 weeks. Of course if he's been homed out while infected with a respiratory infection then gone through the stress of homing that can effect things too. Baytril is rumoured to effect growth in kittens, although I'm not against it's use in severe cases personally.


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## kristen (Aug 29, 2009)

well he was born on the 13th september, whatever that works him out to be now. He was very healthy when he was with us, and we never had any problems with him. The females isnt going to be bred again just incase, but neither she nor the dad had any illness or problems.
I do honestly think he is just a small rat, but should catch up in the long run.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

How often do you breed a doe normally?


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## kristen (Aug 29, 2009)

No more than twice, but we usually only get round to breeding each female once.


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## missyrain (Feb 14, 2009)

i hate people what lie just money making machines to them get rid of them while there young so they wont spend much money on feeding them so they get the best side of it we get the down with ill rats 

and fancy rats is a family place for people who care about rats more than anythink else i am sure they were only trying to help you


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## missyrain (Feb 14, 2009)

just another thing if someone takes there rat they just got from you to the vet and they says its under 6weeks you could go to jail 


p.s i am not being nasty just saying what i think


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

missyrain said:


> just another thing if someone takes there rat they just got from you to the vet and they says its under 6weeks you could go to jail
> 
> 
> p.s i am not being nasty just saying what i think


 
No you wouldn't...

1. the vet probably couldn't agea rat kitten so precisely
2. whether it's right or wrong, ethically, it is not illegal for a private breeders to sell under 6 weeks old, not rodents anyway, as long as the animal is weaned.
3.. Petshops are legally bound by the age they can sell baby animals. I think it's supposed to be 8 weeks but it may be 6 weeks.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Should tell that to the pet shops then, because I've seen much younger babies in pet shops, rescued some whose littermates died because they were given in too soon (and not even by a novice, it was a well "known" breeder). They were less than 50g, roughly 3-4 weeks old max.

Has the site been updated recently? I thought it used to say that you bred from a female 3 times, but that was a while ago so I'm glad that practise has changed


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I let two petshops have syrian hamsters from me, only because I have known the owners for many years, they both tell me that they are allowed to take in rodents at 'weaning' but must quarantine until 'between' 6 and 8 weeks old.

I take my syrains in at 5.5 weeks, as they are bloody huge babies, they are quarantined in shop for 72 hours, they then usually have new homes after 2-3 days so are in the shop less than a week.
I also take my babies back if they get old enough to 'argue' with each other whilst in the shop. This has never happened yet.

I do get rat kitt sales via the petshops but my kitts dont' go into the shop unless I meet the new owner there.

One of hte shops did get some rat kitts in and he phoned me up to go check them out. They were between 40-45grms, no more than 4 weeks, I brought them home and they were weaned by one of my does with a very small litter. The went back tot he shop after 2 weeks a lot healthier and happier.
I kept my fuzz' from that litter he is a dream and a nice big rex boy now.


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## kristen (Aug 29, 2009)

Everyone who buys rats from us are very welcome to take their new pets to the vets and find out if they are what age we say they are. 
I can assure you they will be at the very least 6 weeks as we dont sell them until they reach this age.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

I'm sorry to say that your average vet could not easily give you an accurate age for a baby rat.


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

mattm said:


> I'm sorry to say that your average vet could not easily give you an accurate age for a baby rat.


Thats true, its amazing how little training vets get on rats


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

My old vet couldn't even tell you the gender lol, my new one is much better but vets are vets, they don't get much training in small animals at all unless they take a particular interest in them and get info off their own back.


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

I know, i remember talking to my vet about it, £400 a day to go on a specific rat course :gasp:

Im tempted to pester his boss to let him, due to all the rats i take in there!


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Yes vets can be pretty dumb when rats are concerned.
In 2008 I had to rush my hairless doe, Billie, to the vet as she was having difficulty delivering a litter.

It wasnt' my regular 'rat' vet and I had explained the issue on the phone.
When I got there the vet thought I had brought her in as she had a 'skin condition' even though she was the size of a house and obviously trying to push. Trying to tell them she was meant to have no hair was a waste of time.
In the end it took me 30 minutes to convince them to try a c-section and by that time it was too late. I lost both Bille and her litter.
After she died, whilst the were operating, they came back out to ask if they should try to save the litter. I was livid. If they had just got on with it they might have managed to save a few but they p'd around so much it was again too late.
Afterwards they just said " well you'd never be able to hand rear a litter of newborn rats" to which I replied I wouldnt' have to as I had another doe with a day old litter at home.
According to the vet you cannot under any circumstances foster rat kitts to another doe they will 100% eat both litters.
Thick or what.

I made a complaint and they thought I should be happy with them only charging me £6.50 for the anaesthetic and not charge me for th eoperation.

I use this vet for my horses and they are fantatic with them but I told them I'd never go back with anything small.

This is why I now only use hairless carriers to breed my hairless lines. I no longer run the line Billie came from either just in case someone decided to breed a doe. She had managed to give birth to one litter perfectly fine but not the second litter.


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## Blonde24 (Jun 18, 2010)

Rosie75.......

How is your little rattie? I saw your post when i was searching for kkpets through google, as i bought a pair of boy rats from them in november too! I'm thinking they may be from the same litter. When i saw your post i just had to find out how your rat is, i hope he is better now and doing well. 
My two boys have had some health problems but seem to be ok, they've had a lot of sniffles and the vet put them on antibiotics. They are better now than they were, they have such wicked little personalities, i love em! I'd hate to think one of thier possible siblings was so poorly.

Please reply to this and let me know how he is now.

Thanks


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## Pinkchi (Nov 23, 2009)

I have never liked KK Pets since I first stumbled accross their website a few years ago. They always have a million ads on Preloved, seem to rehome alot of rats they have bred from and also for 'breeders' don't seem to know the proper coat colours or markings as I have seen an ad for a silver fawn being sold as 'peachy coloured'.
Also if you read their website it sounds very much like their breeding stock has been sourced from pet shops, which I really do not agree with.

Something about it all just gives me the heeby jeebies!
Not wanting to cause an argument but that is just my personal opinion.


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## rosie75 (Oct 8, 2009)

Just an update on Biscuit
He is approx a year old now and is a lovely boy
It was slow progress with him but he now lives in a group of 5, of all ages.
He has grown to the size of his friend (Toasty in the original picture) and they are inseperable
Thank you everyone that has asked after him


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