# Adding dart frogs to my collection



## Madseyden (Sep 17, 2008)

Hi all,
I've decided to have a small group of Dendrobates tinctorius. One male and 3 female. I've built a 3x2x2 glass viv with screen top, jungle dawn 13w LED for plants, arcadia canopy 24W T5 (came with T5 6% tube), substrate is hydro balls for drainage layer, then fabric mesh, then arcadia eco earth mix, then orchid bark mix on top and lots a sphagam moss. 
Have planted bromalaids and have use lots of plastic vines too. 
Springtails and bean weavils have been in for three weeks and so have a fly culture. Will top up when frogs arrive. 

Temps are around 78 during daytime and 69 at night. Humidity is around 81%.

I'll be getting them in a couple of weeks. They are from a breeder I know. 

Before they go in I just want to make sure my temps are ok and humidity too. Also I haven't used a heat mat as I thought temps might go up.
Is the lighting adequate not sure if 6% will reach through the floor?
Any other suggestions/comments welcome.

Thanks,

Marq.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

The tank will probably be okay, but I`m more concerned with having 4 Tins in there together.
Females are notorious for fighting with each other with often fatal outcomes.
Stick to a pair or a trio with 2 males.



Mike


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## Madseyden (Sep 17, 2008)

I can add another male no probs. Just thought the males would fight. Thanks Mike.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

It`s not so much the males that fight although I`ve seen the odd spat.
But females will just go at it.
For a while now I`ve been keeping my Tincs in pairs only, because I`ve had problems with fighting.
It`s a lot easier and it`s a lot less stressful for the frogs.


Mike


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## Madseyden (Sep 17, 2008)

Ok. Thanks.


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## ItsExiled (Oct 24, 2011)

Hiya,

Temps etc. look fine to me.
I agree with Mike tho, I would stick to a pair or trio.
I started with a trio of tincs and actually lost one of them a few weeks later, I didn't see any fighting but I would generally go with pairs now!

Goodluck!
Luca


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

That's the problem right their Luca, You often don`t see fighting.
I lost a male Tinc a while back that I`d had for ages, it too was part of a trio.
Never had I seen any trouble and all 3 were always together.
One day though I saw something unusual, it was the female giving it a hard time and the frog was stressed to hell.
I removed him, but the damage was done and I lost him.
From there on I never again saw any fighting so to this day don`t know what went wrong.
Another trio I had seemed to be doing great, they were big healthy frogs and then one day one of the males wasn`t looking himself and started to hide away a lot.
Then I found the reason, the other male was having a go at him and it looked to me like they were actually fighting over the female.
This time I was lucky and got him out before he got stressed out too much and he`s living happily in a spare viv.
So as I said from now on it`s pairs only for me.


Mike


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## ItsExiled (Oct 24, 2011)

In regards to the lighting your setup sounds fine.
I actually just go with one or two jungle dawns depending on the size of the viv personally, the lighting is mainly just for the plants.


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## Madseyden (Sep 17, 2008)

Will the viv be too big for a pair (3x2x2)?


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## ItsExiled (Oct 24, 2011)

A viv can never be too big and they will use the extra space but yeah you can definitely get away with smaller, you can go with a trio if you want they should be fine but make sure you have two males.
Plenty of people have had success with groups just I've had more luck with pairs.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

ItsExiled said:


> A viv can never be too big and they will use the extra space but yeah you can definitely get away with smaller, you can go with a trio if you want they should be fine but make sure you have two males.
> Plenty of people have had success with groups just I've had more luck with pairs.


I`m in agreement.
For an animal that comes from a natural habitat of hundreds of square miles the tank you have will be okay.
Try for a male high trio though and the bigger tank will help them get some alone time if it`s needed.


Mike


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## Madseyden (Sep 17, 2008)

Ok. Well I'm not getting them until a couple of weeks so I've got time to decide. Thanks all ;0)


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Let us know how you get on.


Mike


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## Madseyden (Sep 17, 2008)

*Update:*

Well I decided to get 2 males and 1 female. They have been in their new home for 5 days and seem to love it. They love their fruit flies! 

Here are some pics:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Can I ask what frogs these are ?


Mike


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## Madseyden (Sep 17, 2008)

I was told Dendrobates tinctorius which are dyeing dart frogs. Why, have I been told wrong?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Well Dying dart frog refers to all Tincs.
It looks to me like you have 3 different frogs in there and I`m not even sure what.


Mike


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## Madseyden (Sep 17, 2008)

Oh. I just thought it was just different colouration.


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## ChrisJ83 (Apr 15, 2013)

Def three different species in there :/


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Look like a leucomelas, and two different tinc morphs to me?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Mads what's ya name mate,oh and :welcome:

Kiddo, what the guys have picked up on is dart keepers keep all the different populations of the different species of dart frogs separately. These different populations we call morphs. D tinctorious is one of the frogs that has many morphs see here:

Morphguide - die einzelnen Varianten

Mads, dart keepers are fastidious about not creating hybrids,this is all but universal across the world wide hobby hydridisation is really frowned upon in our little niche,we are nowt like the designer morph guys in say snakes or geckos. 

We believe nature gave us it all, we have all but every colour to think of occuring naturally in nature.. We try to stick to what nature gave us,behind that we collectively don't want hybrids in our hobby. Hybrids between morphs can oft look like one of their parents,and we really don't want those genes passed out . Hybrid offspring are for one virtually worthless ,but they also have the chance to contaminate the pure gene pools we try to keep to. In some ways this might not be important as it's unlikely that our pet frogs will ever be returned back to the wild,that said CITIES doesn't recognise these naturallry occuring morphs,it is highly likely that some frogs kept by us are maybe the last ones on the planet. It is desparately important we keep them pure. some of us keep a frog called the highland lamasi(serensis now) there are other morphs of lamasi occuring in other places,but the highland is most likely extinct in the wild now. If we cross this with other lamasi then that pure stunning frogs will be lost in it's pure form ,forever. There is no going back once different genes have been added. This is so important mate I really can't stress,how important.

We have some real problems in the wild , a fungus called chytrid (Bd) is wiping out whole populations of frogs,we are looking at the biggest global extinction amongst phibs since the dinosaurs over the last few years,it's just so important that we keep darts pure as best we can

I'm not sure what exactly you have here but you need to have a chat with the breeder and find out exactly what these guys are and if these are NOT already hybrids which i'm already concerned about swap them out for 3 of the same PURE morph.

Man i'm glad you posted this here and some laid back folks are replying whom desparately want your start into our hobby to be as good as it can be,you need to have a dig on hybrids in the american hobby,scary stuff,they don't hold back, our community just doesn't want hybrids of morphs in any form.

Kiddo I'm really sorry to post this,I was hoping while reading through your thread to be able to bung some other happy stuff at you not this ,it's not easy mate telling someone new about all this.I do hope it comes over in the spirit in which it's intended but please not breed the above frogs and please find out exactly what they are,if the breeder can't give you pure morphs these really need to go back which means starting over as you have slapped them straight into viv with no QT so that's gone too.


Ahh man my saddest post on RFUK phibs in six years I so hope you get where i'm coming from and how ruddy hard this is,but someone needs to explain this to you

all the luck kiddo

Stu


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## Madseyden (Sep 17, 2008)

Oh my, right, I rang the guy I got them from and he said I could take them back. I took them back and he gave me money back. I told him they were different species and he said they weren't. I'm going to wait now until after Christmas to see what I'll do next. I going to have to strip the tank now and clean it down. Guess I'll put it down to experience. Might just keep to reptiles. I think he took advantage as I'm autistic.


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## ChrisJ83 (Apr 15, 2013)

Glad to hear you got your money back but the guy definaitly lied to you about them being the same species/morph it would have caused you no end of trouble when ever anyone found out you had different frogs living and potentialy breeding toghether!

You should definaitly stick with getting some frogs they are amazing to watch and increadibly rewarding its just such a shame that your first encounter with them has turned out so badly.

Clean your tank and get yourself educated on what frog you actually want to keep. Typically all of the frogs you get should look very simular to each other colour and morph wise and try. You could always ask for photos and then post them here to find out if they are what the seller says they are we would all be too happy to help!


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

To be honest they looked like hybrids.
Okay they might be healthy frogs but if you bred them you`d be stuck with the froglets.
It was good of him to give you back your money, but unfortunately someone else will now end up with them.
There are plenty of places to get what your after, but as Chris says do a little research and try to decide on which frog you want and then when the time comes you`ll know what your looking at when parting with your cash.


Mike


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Madseyden said:


> Oh my, right, I rang the guy I got them from and he said I could take them back. I took them back and he gave me money back. I told him they were different species and he said they weren't. I'm going to wait now until after Christmas to see what I'll do next. I going to have to strip the tank now and clean it down. Guess I'll put it down to experience. Might just keep to reptiles. I think he took advantage as I'm autistic.


Mate, don't give up on keeping the frogs! I am relatively new to it and love it. 
You had a bit of bad luck but it was spotted early and the problem got solved very quickly for you. Get the tank stripped back and redone, seed it with springtails and woodlice and let it grow in whilst you do some research about what frogs will suit it best and where you can get them from. 

Use this thread as a platform to learn all of the things you may not know now as there are some very knowledgeable people on here. Once you're back on track you'll be over the moon i'm sure.

Marc.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I think it`s a bit OTT to strip the viv back to be honest.
We have no proof either way whether the frogs are sick or not, and to be honest the 2 in the closeup looked pretty healthy.
I would consider giving the viv a good spray with some F10 disinfectant which will kill any nasties that might be going around.
A daily spray for a week or 2 and the viv should be fine.


Mike


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I`ll add this before anyone jumps in.
Probably the biggest fear any of us have is getting Chytrid into our vivs.
It can be dealt with Additional disinfectants effective against the amphibian chytrid fungus Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis (PDF Download Available)
The first paragraph should tell you all you need to know.


Mike


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

frogman955 said:


> I`ll add this before anyone jumps in.
> Probably the biggest fear any of us have is getting Chytrid into our vivs.
> It can be dealt with Additional disinfectants effective against the amphibian chytrid fungus Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis (PDF Download Available)
> The first paragraph should tell you all you need to know.
> ...


Great bit of info in that Mike, and nice to know. One question, and I mean this only from an interest point. What about other nasties? Is Chytrid the main offender to why people quarantine? What about other internal parasites or is it generally accepted most will be carry some kind or another? Have you actually ever had an illness affect some of your collection or has everything you have done so far been precautionary and worked?

Marc


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## Madseyden (Sep 17, 2008)

I'm going to take a visit to Reptile Cymru in Cardiff after Christmas as I've never been there before and looks like a nice shop. I will see what they have. I've asked them questions before on FB. 
Still want some frogs but not going to rush in to it. Thanks all for help and information.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Wingnut2711 said:


> Great bit of info in that Mike, and nice to know. One question, and I mean this only from an interest point. What about other nasties? Is Chytrid the main offender to why people quarantine? What about other internal parasites or is it generally accepted most will be carry some kind or another? Have you actually ever had an illness affect some of your collection or has everything you have done so far been precautionary and worked?
> 
> Marc


Hi Marc.
As you well know Marc there is a lot of BS goes around, so lets ask ourselves what nasties we`re looking for.
All frogs carry parasites, but are they a problem ?
No they`re not as the frogs carry them and just live with them.
But, if you stress a frog out then the balance gets upset and the parasites take over and the frog dies.
Will quarantining a frog stop the parasites ?
Not a chance in hell.
There`s not as many people actually quarantine their frogs as they might have you believe.
I was actually having a conversation with someone about this the other night and as was pointed out, if anyone does actually have a quarantine tank it`s probably sat next to the other vivs so any nasties could arguably migrate across.
Lets take the new keeper for example. The new viv is set up and the new frogs are sat there ready to be put in, what do you do? quarantine the frogs? or put them straight in the new viv?
You put them in the new viv of course. Why quarantine them in a different viv and then put them into the new one.
A week later you get some more frogs but a different morph so do you quarantine them or put them straight into the new viv ?
Here`s something to think about, if you had put the first frogs into quarantine and then move them to their new viv and then you get some new frogs and put them in the quarantine viv, you have now potentially infected them with any nasties left behind by the first frogs.
Anyway Marc you were asking about Chytrid. It is the worst thing to happen to frogs world wide and once again it`s a man made problem which has gotten out of control.
If you bring that into your collection you may as well say goodbye to all your frogs.
Have I ever had any illnesses affect my frogs ? no, never.
I tend to buy my frogs from people I know which usually is the best way as you`ll probably know if that person has issues with their livestock. But also most times frogs that I buy are going into new vivs so no need for quarantining them. 
It`s a bit of a minefield, but I don`t mind stepping on a few on the way lol.


Mike


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Madseyden said:


> I'm going to take a visit to Reptile Cymru in Cardiff after Christmas as I've never been there before and looks like a nice shop. I will see what they have. I've asked them questions before on FB.
> Still want some frogs but not going to rush in to it. Thanks all for help and information.


You should try and make it a round trip and visit Dartfrog as well. You wouldn`t regret it.


Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wingnut2711 said:


> Great bit of info in that Mike, and nice to know. One question, and I mean this only from an interest point. What about other nasties? Is Chytrid the main offender to why people quarantine? What about other internal parasites or is it generally accepted most will be carry some kind or another? Have you actually ever had an illness affect some of your collection or has everything you have done so far been precautionary and worked?
> 
> Marc


Need to answer this as well Marc, I'm advocating Qt Mike isn't need to add balance. Bd is not the only reason to QT, for me Rv is a bigger fear,BD is treatable if caught at the QT stage it doesn't mean death to a collection,it has that potential for sure. RV (ranavirus) is not treatable to my knowledge for me Rv is a bigger fear. Naturally there are other things we don't want that have potential to damage our frogs.


Marc I will repeat I don't do full Qt,but that observation period is emense and can rule out a contaminated viv. I've just read of those dead azzies QT might have ruled out a viv that had probs.,it might not. Mike's utterly right I do QT in the same room,it is WAY LESS than ideal but it is something as opposed to nought .One doesn't do QT in a contaminated viv, that's just nuts it's done in a new clean tub or viv ,but not any form of home that had other frogs in!!!!! Actually it will be more if one does the full bore QT the yanks do as the frogs get moved to a new clean home after each set of tests

The whole idea is to get a handle on if these new frogs are ok,before contaminating the viv one has built for them. If one goes the whole hog,if all of us did full bore QT all the tests I'd lay a bloody big bet that we wouldn't see what we see now,like we have just seen with the azzies. Utterly I'm not a betting man ,I'm that sure !!

Today I found out some of my my mysties died at their new home. They were with the keeper for 6 months all good all fine. He got some frogs from another source to add to them,it very much looks like those frogs had something ,they took mine out too. Simple base QT my kids would be here today not dead ,no rocket science bro just how it is.

Even a base QT with all it's pitfalls that anyone can pick holes in is better than nought,ha and once again i'll add that same caviat if the frogs can't cope with that QT place moving them to viv is the only option.


Mike be very sure I'm not having a pop bro I simply believe in QT,this ain't about no one up manship I simply CBA this is about watching frog s die over and over when I believe we can take steps to prevent this,and we can it's just a few steps harder than bunging frogs in a viv. But by the same token I can't say to a new guy don't QT I have to oppose your opinion,if I don't in a few weeks or months we'll both be fighting like hell to help another guy like Lee and I'll hear of folks that had some kids from me that perrished,this is not easy buddy ,bloody hard actually so was the last post,but no choice is left I just can't sit back and watch!!I love the frogs and our hobby,we mess up but slowly learn ,let's move us forwards not stay here.




Oh costs tubs wham tesco £3/4 holesaw and mesh for vents say a couple more orchidbark pence LL nought a couple or three plants...not so much. COco huts not so much. Effort a bit more . 


Marc using QT is no rocket science just sit here and watch a few years!! Full bore Qt arms us with knowledge,lesser is lesser,not perfect but something,bung in viv has serious pitfalls,it won't change why did those frogs not do well were they ill? when bought,were they stressed so a parasite that wouldn't normally be an issue is? or is that viv wrong in some way,I'll throw the question back use pure logic mate,how can you tell me if a frog dies in a new viv what it died of?

Finally how stressful is a move to a frog,what is the effect of stress. What is the first experience of a new frogger.So playing simple percentages should we advocate QT or no,maybe better put should the new guy know about QT and then have a choice?

now that's cool that is as it should be

Mike bro nowt personal nowt going on,webland don't know whether you will get this my guts are saying no,but QT has the potential to change the brit hobby please dwell on this . It will NOT always work but it will help somefrogs and that my friend is why we both try so hard for the next guy. 

Me done take care all I'm off write songs and be merciless with friends:Na_Na_Na_Na:
Happy birthday to me....happy birthday to me:lol2:
Stu


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

frogman955 said:


> To be honest they looked like hybrids.
> Okay they might be healthy frogs but if you bred them you`d be stuck with the froglets.
> It was good of him to give you back your money, but unfortunately someone else will now end up with them.
> There are plenty of places to get what your after, but as Chris says do a little research and try to decide on which frog you want and then when the time comes you`ll know what your looking at when parting with your cash.
> ...


 Not sure they are hybrids Mike, looks like a leuc, a Brazilian and a Sipaliwini to me :2thumb:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

You could be right Chris.
I`m not sure either, but there`s a few of us have suspicions.
This is what happens though when people keep different morphs in the same viv, there will forever more be a question mark over them.
Just a couple of weeks back there were hybrids being advertised on pre loved and they looked nothing like what the owner claimed they were.
Unlike this incident though he was known to be breeding them, which is a bit different.

Mike


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