# What's wrong with live food?



## Phark (Jul 1, 2008)

I've just realised what happened to my first thread. And so, you guys think using live prey as food for pets is morally and ethically wrong? Are you all PETA advocates?


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## Shey (Mar 24, 2008)

It is wrong and cruel. 
Being eaten alive doesn't exaclty sound too fun. Obviously in nature predators stalk and kill their own prey, it's natural instincts but in captivity it's almost100% avoidable. let the little lovvies live 

:flrt:


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## Alpha Dog (Jan 3, 2008)

Phark, Im for feeding live and enjoy watching it.


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## Phark (Jul 1, 2008)

I'm definitely not a sadist who enjoys watching animals kill each other. Fact is, my treefrogs don't eat anything other than live crickets and mealworms. Surely it is not ethically wrong to feed live crickets to pet frogs? And in turn, what's wrong with giving my pet an occasional large meal in the form of live prey?


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

In the wild a lot of animals do stalk and kill their prey. However in captivity in an enclosed confined space it is dangerous and hazardous for the reptile in question and i have seen pictures of what happens when the live food takes revenge.

Marina


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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

Didn't see the removed thread but I assume it's about using live mammals? I think the problem is that these same mammals are also in the pet trade and using them as food is in the realms of cruelty. Some people have been prosecuted for using live mammals as food. As far as the law goes it's not illegal but frowned upon.


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## Spider Call (Mar 23, 2007)

Phark said:


> I'm definitely not a sadist who enjoys watching animals kill each other. Fact is, my treefrogs don't eat anything other than live crickets and mealworms. Surely it is not ethically wrong to feed live crickets to pet frogs? And in turn, what's wrong with giving my pet an occasional large meal in the form of live prey?


So why feed your frog a young gecko, if all they eat is crickets and meal worms?
No one stated for one moment that feeding them crickets was cruel, they stated that there was no need for you to take the life of a gecko. 
And no it is not ethnically wrong, but I draw the line as soon as the animal is completely AWARE of what is about to happen to it. So pretty much I will feed insects, and it stops at rodents cause they know what is coming. 
KNOWING that there will be lizard lovers on this forum, you pretty much set yourself up for abuse.
Putting it bluntly if you feed your animals things that are way too big for them, and put them at risk, maybe they would be better off dead.

Sick :censor:


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## Phark (Jul 1, 2008)

_simon_ said:


> Didn't see the removed thread but I assume it's about using live mammals? I think the problem is that these same mammals are also in the pet trade and using them as food is in the realms of cruelty. Some people have been prosecuted for using live mammals as food. As far as the law goes it's not illegal but frowned upon.


 Don't assume anything when you don't know your facts. It was about feeding a common house gecko to my _Hyla arborea_.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Woah Mr Attitude. I didnt know what it was about either!!!

Marina


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## Phark (Jul 1, 2008)

Spider Call said:


> So why feed your frog a young gecko, if all they eat is crickets and meal worms?
> *No one stated for one moment that feeding them crickets was cruel*, they stated that there was no need for you to take the life of a gecko.
> And no it is not ethnically wrong, but I draw the line as soon as the animal is completely AWARE of what is about to happen to it. So pretty much I will feed insects, and it stops at rodents cause they know what is coming.
> KNOWING that there will be lizard lovers on this forum, you pretty much set yourself up for abuse.
> ...


 No-one? Look at this:

"It is wrong and cruel. 
Being eaten alive doesn't exaclty sound too fun. Obviously in nature predators stalk and kill their own prey, it's natural instincts but in captivity it's almost100% avoidable. let the little lovvies live"

That entire post was a response to my question: "What's wrong with live food?"

I can understand why people are flaming me for feeding a live gecko to my frog, but I cannot understand why some others are flaming me for using live food.


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## Spider Call (Mar 23, 2007)

Phark said:


> No-one? Look at this:
> 
> "It is wrong and cruel.
> Being eaten alive doesn't exaclty sound too fun. Obviously in nature predators stalk and kill their own prey, it's natural instincts but in captivity it's almost100% avoidable. let the little lovvies live"
> ...


You are saying that was in reply feeding crickets, when pretty much every person on this site that owns lizards feeds them. 
I took it that this person had SEEN the other post, and knew what you had fed to what.
I see nothing wrong with feeding a cricket to something, by the time it notices what is happening its in the animals mouth.
They aint exactly the most conscious creatures. 
Where as I have watched someone feed a live rat to a snake -shudder- the poor thing knew what was happening that was for sure.


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## missloo (Jun 30, 2008)

its not just wrong and cruel its dangerous alot of people who have tried feeding live mice/rats to there pets have ended up having there pet put down because the rats and mice bite, scratch etc


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## Gem (Aug 26, 2007)

Not only that but this wonderful hobby also comes under constant criticism as regards the keeping of reptiles in captivity and pictures like that only add fuel to the fire from the people who want it stopped


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

In the UK feeding live vertebrates without absolute necessity is considered cruel, and you can be prosecuted under cruelty to animals for causing unnecessary suffering. In the UK it is extremely frowned upon, and you will not get a good reaction here posting pictures of it.

Other lizards and rodents are pets here. House geckos are sold as pets. It is the same as someone watching a kitten being eaten by a snake ! It creates a high level of emotion and will also create a high level of anger because you are killing what people consider pets, animals with equal rights to the animal you are feeding it to.

If you want to post vertebrate feeding pictures / videos you are best to put it on youtube or an american forum, and accept that in the UK, what you are doing is simply unacceptable to the majority of people.

Feeding invertebrates is entirely different, invertebrates have no rights here, and very few people get emotional or attached to them. Even so, if you posted a picture of your frog eating a tarantula alive, I'm sure the tarantula keepers would still be pretty upset about it! But crickets are bred, marketed and sold purely as livefood.


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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

Phark said:


> Don't assume anything when you don't know your facts. It was about feeding a common house gecko to my _Hyla arborea_.


What I said still applies, people keep geckos as pets...


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## J-Dee (Jan 14, 2008)

BE WARNED HORRIBLE PIC BELOW !





























^thats why people dont like live feeding .... if its not done correctly you can end up hurting your snake.


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## Spider Call (Mar 23, 2007)

J-Dee said:


> BE WARNED HORRIBLE PIC BELOW !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


o.o Ouch D:





Athravan said:


> Even so, if you posted a picture of your frog eating a tarantula alive, I'm sure the tarantula keepers would still be pretty upset about it!


I would indeed -nods- 
Poor eight legged freaks


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

live feeding is something that is normally enjoyed by disturbed people, and is not a very cleaver thing to be doing. if things had of gone the other way and the geko had attacked your frog im sure that your origanal thread would of been a different topic.

people on this forum, and this country in general do NOT like live feeding so i think you should keep your horror pics to your self or an american based audience.

there is a big issue at the moment were we are having to fight to keep our hobby alive and people like you promoting cruelty and bad keeping are not doing any one (encluding your self) any favours with threads or actions like this!


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## redeyedanny (Feb 16, 2007)

knighty said:


> live feeding is something that is normally enjoyed by disturbed people, and is not a very cleaver thing to be doing. if things had of gone the other way and the geko had attacked your frog im sure that your origanal thread would of been a different topic.
> 
> people on this forum, and this country in general do NOT like live feeding so i think you should keep your horror pics to your self or an american based audience.
> 
> there is a big issue at the moment were we are having to fight to keep our hobby alive and people like you promoting cruelty and bad keeping are not doing any one (encluding your self) any favours with threads or actions like this!


 
for once knighty i agree! :lol2:


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## bluetongued (Apr 25, 2007)

Alpha Dog said:


> Phark, Im for feeding live and enjoy watching it.


 
Wierdo!!


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## Shey (Mar 24, 2008)

Spider Call said:


> You are saying that was in reply feeding crickets, when pretty much every person on this site that owns lizards feeds them.
> I took it that this person had SEEN the other post, and knew what you had fed to what.
> I see nothing wrong with feeding a cricket to something, by the time it notices what is happening its in the animals mouth.
> They aint exactly the most conscious creatures.
> Where as I have watched someone feed a live rat to a snake -shudder- the poor thing knew what was happening that was for sure.


I didn't see the previous post and I never stated that I was talking about insects, I was more going for larger prey as in rodents etc. 
: victory:


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## Spider Call (Mar 23, 2007)

Shey said:


> I didn't see the previous post and I never stated that I was talking about insects, I was more going for larger prey as in rodents etc.
> : victory:


Yeah  Did not think you would have called crickets lovvies... 
I know I wouldn't -gives them the evil eye-

So we were both wrong XD <.< But I was totally closer...


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## stopstealingmyname (May 31, 2008)

live food is ok imo but only if the animal wont or doesn't eat TF.

feeding live food for amusement or that your animal can't kill fast though is just a bit sick.


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## inkyjoe (Mar 31, 2008)

Phark, are you obsessed by fire? did you wet the bed as a child? if so, I think theres a good chance you could turn out to be a serial killer you cruel red-neck! Its not even like it was suitably sized prey, for a frog that max's out at 2", you just wanted to see blood shed.
Sick inbred, you dont deserve the animals you have


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## Barney_M (Apr 2, 2008)

i have no problem with live feeding however doing something like that is illegal i believe its like unnecassary suffering.
i like watching live, i dont have a problem with it, but i dont do it


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## Vase (Jul 14, 2007)

There's an idiot born everyday. Congratulation Phart, you're todays winner!

The only time to feed live vertebrates is when the animal you are feeding will die otherwise. As for posting about it in such a way on a UK reptile forum....see my above comment.


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

Alpha Dog said:


> Phark, Im for feeding live and enjoy watching it.


 i believe you are contradicting yourself, you stated on your own thread that you only fed live out of a necessity, because you said, and i quote " i have thousands of frogs". although its your choice however many frogs you have and its un-necessary suffering to the mammels you use as feeders when you choose to feed live because you consider it easier.
feeding live without it being to keep an animal alive is WRONG. 
im so hoping a moderator will close this thread because its showing as blatent trolling.


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

Can everyone please stop feeding the trolls, they will only multiply!


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

Frogeye 1050 said:


> Can everyone please stop feeding the trolls, they will only multiply!


 hahahahah aint that the truth. have you noticed that its been happening the past 2 days?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

inkyjoe said:


> Phark, are you obsessed by fire? did you wet the bed as a child? if so, I think theres a good chance you could turn out to be a serial killer you cruel red-neck! Its not even like it was suitably sized prey, for a frog that max's out at 2", you just wanted to see blood shed.
> Sick inbred, you dont deserve the animals you have


:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2: argument done?



redeyedanny said:


> for once knighty i agree! :lol2:


about time we did :lol2:


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## inkyjoe (Mar 31, 2008)

knighty said:


> :lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2: argument done?
> 
> Would be funny if it wasnt true. I wonder if he starved both animals first to guarantee he got a reaction? Its like 'saw' for herps


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

hope not, that would be totaly sick, like a planned execution!

i know there are some situations were live food has to be used, but there is no need for it to be filmed, pictured, posted ar even watched!


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## iceir (Jun 17, 2008)

i feed my tree frogs live crickets because its natural and gives them exersise
and its a quick death

i also buy them from a pet shop who dont usaly feed or water them so they would die much more slowly and painfully , i feed them and water them and keep them in a cricket keeper. so they have a short but happy life:2thumb::2thumb:


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## iceir (Jun 17, 2008)

J-Dee said:


> BE WARNED HORRIBLE PIC BELOW !
> 
> 
> 
> ...









what in the lords name did that, have they been feeding it aligators or summit?


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

I dont really have much of a problem with live food ASLONG as:

1. It's bred for food
2. its well cared for 
5. It's suitable 
3. there is no chance it could injure the pred
4. it does not suffer unduly


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## sunnydelighter (Jul 5, 2008)

im glad to say in the uk it is illegal to feed live animals other then insects to other creatures , unless the animal will not feed in any other way,then a license can be obtained. I feed my pets insects as lets face my toads and geckos would not take a dead crickets, meal worms etc from me so they have to be live. Mammals and reptiles are larger and can be offered in such a way to appear to alive to the creatures big enough to eat them. (i am talkin from experiance with a corn snake). i did animal care at college and i can appreciate that there are case where live animals have to be offered, but if the creature can feed on a smaller creature that was killed quickly and humanly with out fear, whats the point of making the last moment of that poor victim a long painfull process. There is no need for it. And for the people that do feed live creatures to other live creatures when it is not essentail. all i can say is that i feel you are very sad people who get off on other creature suffering. And u may as well be on the same par as those who dog fight,cock fight and other horrid thingslike that!


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

it is not exactly illegal, just fround uppon and it is a very gray area im affraid, there is a sticky in one of the other areas with the laws to live feeding, will try and find it and post a link.

pleas do not take it as im encouraging it to happen, as i personally opose it.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/69279-live-feeding-laws.html


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## sunnydelighter (Jul 5, 2008)

well law i always opened to interpritation one person can interpiate it one way another can interpiate it another way all i know is that i was taught at a national diploma level that it was illegal to do such a thing if this was not the case then many people would do that in this country. to me that would be no differrent from badger bateing and what would stop me from killing my own animals and other animals to feed other creatures. so i agree it not illegal unless u have a license or why would there be such a license?!? i worked at a nature centre for three years near me y would they need a licence to be able to feed there own stock of snakes? if this is not the case wot on earth have my tutors been teaching me? i had to learn many asspect of law in my course such as pet shop laws and kennel laws etc. very boring but interresting to.

I found this :
The 1911 Act makes it an offence to cause unnecessary suffering to any domestic or captive animal, with limited exceptions including suffering caused under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986_Subsection (1)_ sets out the circumstances in which a person who causes an animal to suffer commits an offence. It will be an offence to cause physical or mental suffering, whether this is by a positive act or an omission, to a protected animal where this is unnecessary and the person knew or could be expected to know that an animal would suffer as a result. The effect of paragraph (b) is to introduce an objective mental element. It will not be necessary to prove that a defendant actually knew his act or failure to act would cause suffering. 

so how can it be ok to feed a live mouse, to another creature put an enclosure no where to hide, if they dont have fear then y in the wild would they hide from a snake, some thing are instinct. 
i do appreciate the fact u said u dont condone it, but i stongly believe it is illegal and would want any one to get in trouble. No one in the u k can get in trouble for not feeding live creatures from wot ive stated above


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

There is as far as I'm aware no licence to "feed live". You should however obtain a signed document from your veterinarian asserting that the animal would not eat for them either and that it requires live food in order to survive.

Feeding live for "entertainment" purposes - particularly for display - is not legal.


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## sunnydelighter (Jul 5, 2008)

*well ....*

i knew there was some sort of document and that it was illegal otherwise. i have to be honest i did think it was a license, will research that more to confirm . . but good to know otherwise n it lets other people know too :2thumb::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::2thumb:


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## JustJordan (Jul 2, 2008)

Well i guess its ok with Crix etc but rodents and other small reptiles??
On youtube there are countless video's of people feeding their reps or amphibs live food.
some even have vids up of fights between diffrent pets hich ends up in one eating the other, these people seem to enjoy this for some reason. personally it breaks my heart to see it.

one vid shows how a pacman breaks a poor mouse's back then releasing it, allowing the poor creature to drag its self to a hiding spot, to be met again by the frog.


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## sunnydelighter (Jul 5, 2008)

*i agree*

to be honest i do feel guilty for the crickets but than if i dont feed my babies them than my babies would eventualy starve, all my fav crickets end up been called scampi. Im the kind of person who hate wasps, there are no pint to them been on our planet they r aggressive and horrid n i hate them was almost killed by one when i was a child but still would kill one or let anyone else near me kill one so the thought of feedin mammals breaks my heart and its not a necessary unless there is a legit reason why the animal has to eat live mammals: victory:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

like i said it was a gray area, kinda contradicts its self when it says its legal as long as no suffering is caused.... der its being eaten alive!

that thread is copyed from the British Parlements resources site so it is genuine and is the law as it satnds to date.


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## Doogerie (Jul 6, 2007)

i always thaught live feeding with small pray eg: crickits was unvodebel for frogs and tods


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

There's a difference in an emotional sense between feeding a cricket to a frog/toad/lizard/snake and feeding a mouse to a frog/toad/lizard/snake. A living thing is a living thing true enough - but a mouse can show that it is experiencing pain, stress and fear much more clearly than a cricket can (if a cricket is capable of experiencing pain like a vertebrate at all). 

I personally have no problem with feeding live vertebrates WHEN it is NECESSARY to keep the animal being fed alive. However, doing it for entertainment or "just because" I cannot justify or rationalise. Yes, it's cool to watch my animals eat. No it is *not* cool to watch another animal suffer for my amusement.


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