# Red eye dead :(



## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

Well my male RETF finally gave up the fight, he had been looking better the past few days but just went downhill today and I just found him dead on a leaf . he was a really active, lively frog as well I dont know what happened.


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## rugbystar55 (Aug 11, 2008)

sorry to hear about your loss


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## JustJordan (Jul 2, 2008)

aww *hug*
RIP wee man


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

im sorry to hear that hun  i know your a fantastic keeper and im sure you did all you could for him.

dont give up xxx


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Shit dude do you think it was the stress of being moved to the rain chamber?

sorry to here about it though, thought he was on the mend.


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

Yea he did seem alot better but just crashed yesterday. 
He was fine until the move to the rain chamber so thats the only thing I can think of.


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## TheToad888 (Dec 18, 2008)

Awww... Thats sad... Red eyes are lovely... BUt i have noticed many deaths of them on this forum...
RIP lil' guy


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

chondro13 said:


> im sorry to hear that hun  i know your a fantastic keeper and im sure you did all you could for him.
> 
> dont give up xxx


Thanks babe, I wont give up I still have 3 fat females ready to breed so Im going to try and get 2 males for next year.

Yes quite a few male red eyes have been dying recently. I did an pm on him and he had food in his gut at various stages of digestion so I know he didnt starve to death.


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

You did a PM on your frog? is that wise given he could have all sorts of bacteria in there


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## takeoffyourcolours (Apr 11, 2009)

i'm so sorry to hear that
R.I.P little froggy


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

messengermatt said:


> You did a PM on your frog? is that wise given he could have all sorts of bacteria in there


Hmm, certianly would have but I dont see the problem?


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## Joe Ryan (Jul 12, 2009)

Poor fella.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Javeo said:


> Yes quite a few male red eyes have been dying recently. I did an pm on him and he had food in his gut at various stages of digestion so I know he didnt starve to death.


shit dude is that right? i dont know if cutting up your dead frogs is right.


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

It can be useful in determining the cause of death. I dont have the facilities to do blood screening but I can find out if there were any physical reasons for the death such as blockages, injuries or parasites. I am a biological science bsc so I have done this kind of stuff before.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Javeo said:


> It can be useful in determining the cause of death. I dont have the facilities to do blood screening but I can find out if there were any physical reasons for the death such as blockages, injuries or parasites. I am a biological science bsc so I have done this kind of stuff before.


The chances of you making a diagnosis on anything other than the most blindingly obvious pathology, as a BSc student are about nil.

You're in Kent, there are plenty of fantastic herp qualified vets nearby to you, your red eye would have been better seen and assessed by one of these people before it died and it then would have been better properly PMed by one of these qualified people, perhaps then you would have an answer. 
As it stands you have a dead animal that you had been forcefeeding without knowing why and you did your own "PM" meaning it's death gave you no answers and the health of your two females remains in question.

I apologise to anyone who thinks I'm coming on strong, but I was not impressed by the "force feeding a RETF" topic and I am even less impressed by this "my force fed RETF died so I had a look at it's gubbins myself, I'm a BSc student you know! But I of course didn't find anything..."

Lotte***


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

Oh well 

And who said the health of my 3!!! females is in question? They are fine fat, active and eating well. 
And theres really no need for you to be so condescending it accomplishes little of what you want it to and further makes me just ignore you.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Javeo said:


> Oh well
> 
> And who said the health of my 3!!! females is in question? They are fine fat, active and eating well.
> And theres really no need for you to be so condescending it accomplishes little of what you want it to and further makes me just ignore you.


You have stated that he didn't die of starvation since he had material in his digestive tract, in which case, what did he die of...?

It could be anything from internal parasites, a transmissible disease or simply intense stress. 

If I were you I would hope that the stress of being handled, forcefed and washed with a "sugar and mineral solution" was what caused his death and not something else. Otherwise you are potentially looking at an infection, in which case the health of your 3 perfectly healthy and hungry females would indeed be in question.

Your other topic made no sense, you were "sharing" your experience, you were neither asking for help nor really giving an account of the situation, just simply saying, my red eye is skinny so I'm DIYing treatment for him lets see how it goes. 
For the record, the post you made where you stated "he is quite tame and doesn't mind being handled." should have rung alarm bells. A frog that does not resist being forcefed is in serious trouble, a frog that doesn't mind being messed around with is a very sick animal indeed.

I just don't get it.
You post saying you have an ill male frog (that you don't mention being then housed seperately) and that you are forcefeeding it amongst other stressful activities (you don't mention whether it saw a vet at any point or not) you mention that it is happy being handled and seems to be on the mend, then it's dead. Then you mention a DIY PM which is of zero value to the frog or you or your other frogs, but you honestly believe it's a good idea because you are a BSc student! 

Ignore me all you like, but this has been a pretty poor performance in my opinion.
I'm have a BSc in Biology, unlike you I've been lucky enough to assist two fully qualified herp vets in many types of procedure involving amphibians and I've also been lucky enough to observe many PM's.
Despite all this, I would never have the audacity to think I could make any form of diagnosis or useful investigation by PMing my own animal as you have.

Good luck with your conscience, but I think given your attitude that would be too much to hope for.

Lotte***


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Javeo said:


> And theres really no need for you to be so condescending it accomplishes little of what you want it to and further makes me just ignore you.


P.S: Do you know what the word condescending means? I don't really think it fits, I prefer supercilious anyway. 

I think I'd call it contemptuous


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## Young996 (Jul 1, 2009)

Sorry to hear your little guy is gone. Hope next year it will work out for you.

Cheers


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

Saedcantas said:


> P.S: Do you know what the word condescending means? I don't really think it fits, I prefer supercilious anyway.
> 
> I think I'd call it contemptuous


You make many assumptions and base your opinions on those, few of those being correct. Plus you know nothing of my experience at all.
And when I say he was tame, I mean when he was not ill. He would happily feed from tweezers or jump onto my hand and croak away, but then you like assuming so...
Oh and im not a BSc student, I finished my course awhile ago.
Contemptuous? really? Im truly hurt!

Anyone who has seen my animals will know that no expense is spared on their set ups and maintenance so please dont make personal judgments about me.

Im bored of this know


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

well my opinions on PMing at home is not great but i can defend JAVEO in his care and set ups. He is a great amphibian keeper and has alot of knowledge and i am 100% sure his remaining retfs will be in great hands.

BSc is more than alot of people on here have and the force feeding i dont see as that much of a problem, if it was a snake in question people would be giving advice on how to do it. I agree it can be stressful but is it not better to have a stressed frog rather than a starved frog?

It winds me up that certain people on this forum and this thread only ever seem to come on when its to flame someone. the forum is supposed to be to offer help and advice not slag people of...........


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## sean k (Dec 20, 2007)

*javeo*

i can also say that javeo has his herps in good set-ups as i have seen them, the male frog which javeo had came from me, and when i sold the frog to him, i was most impressed with the set-up, and his other retf are in good hands....


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

Thanks guys  I appreciate that. I can take constructive criticism but Seadcantas just went for personal attacks. I know she is passionate about animals, as am I, but that just helps no one.


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## JustJordan (Jul 2, 2008)

Ah javeo hope next year goes well for you anyway
if anyone said that to me like she did i think i would be heart broken lol
chin up bud


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

I never questioned Javeo's overall husbandry or setups, simply his handling of this particular situation, which unless he didn't disclose an awful lot of information, looks exactly as I have interpreted it. It's not the forcefeeding I have a problem with in principle, it's the fact there seems to have been no proper investigation before, during or after this.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Javeo said:


> Thanks guys  I appreciate that. I can take constructive criticism but Seadcantas just went for personal attacks. I know she is passionate about animals, as am I, but that just helps no one.


no worries dude


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## Pendragon (Dec 8, 2008)

Well done guys, good to see mob rule is still alive and kicking on the forum, it's a shame that constuctive criticism is only constructive if you agree with it, or if it comes from someone you like.

If you don't like it, or you don't like the person, then they are, Confrontational/condescending/arrogant/up there own arse...

Grow up kids, take the criticism on the chin, and call off your dogs : victory:

Jay


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## Weenoff (Jun 9, 2008)

No don't call off the dogs!

Saedcantas is an awful member of the forum! All she ever does is put other members down, feel inadequate at phib keeping, and rarely offers any USEFUL advice to anyone.. yet claims she's very knowledgeable due to her line of work!

The only time she ever pipes up is when she wants to rub salt into wombs and condemn an already established outcome. She tries to play the 'all know it' yet never tries to remedy anything until it's too late and then states everything they did wrong.(NOT HELPFUL IN THE SLIGHTEST) JAVEO will bend over backwards to help and advise anyone needing assistance.

The fact she wouldn't have the audacity to conduct her own PM really has little relevance to the fact JAVEO wanted to check over the cause of death to try prevent it happening to any other of his frogs. Plus you wouldn't even have a job if people didnt want to find out more, which is SIMPLY ALL JAVEO DID!!

Knighty hit the nail on the head with saying the ONLY time she posts is to burn someone. 

She deserves every critism she recieves.. yet somehow I still feel the scales of slating people are still firmly tipped her way!


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

jabba1967 said:


> Well done guys, good to see mob rule is still alive and kicking on the forum, it's a shame that constuctive criticism is only constructive if you agree with it, or if it comes from someone you like.
> 
> If you don't like it, or you don't like the person, then they are, Confrontational/condescending/arrogant/up there own arse...
> 
> ...



No one has asked for us to stickup for him, we have done it of our own backs as what was said was harsh, uncalled for and out of order. check peoples past posts and certain people are only here to flame and blame rather that give helpful, constructive advice. People only come accross as confrontational/condescending and arrogant by the way the post and confront people. 

dont you think by jumping and sticking up for your bird you have put yourself into a mob and perhaps there should be a call to her to back of the troops


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Weenoff said:


> rarely offers any USEFUL advice to anyone..


Agreed


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

OK guys lets call an end to this. Thank you everyone for the kind comments 
As I said I can take constructive criticism but personal judgments and snide comments really grate on me.
I have disagreed with saedcantas before but neither of us made personal attacks nor declared "contempt". If she was really that offended why didnt she comment on my original post offering advice or "constructive criticism" ?
Anyway I have nothing against her and actually think shes quite hot.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

:lol2: Oh well! (my turn to say it eh) 

As I said earlier, Javeo, I never called your general husbandry or setups into question, I have no reason to. I actually revisited some of your posts to realise we had butted heads once before :S

I think my initial post here was strong, but not personal or offensive, if people disagree with that then oh dear! I didn't comment on the forcefeeding topic, as what was there to say? You weren't asking for advice, so I didn't have any to offer.

Despite the fact that, yes, it's too late for this particular frog. I do think there is a case for investigating the others properly and I do think (from the information I have read) that it sounds like this could have been dealt with better.
If I think something wasn't done right and it was made fairly public, why would I sit around and watch every Tom, Dick and Harry pop by to say pointless words (which also don't help the already deceased frog btw...) about how sorry they are about it. 

I generally view topics and their contents based on the potential information they are currently and will later pass on to the silent readers and future visitors looking for help etc. I'm personally not happy to sit by and let things go unquestioned that I (in my opinion!) don't think are right.

I'm not on forums like this to be liked or to blow smoke up anyones rearend  I'm perceived as "condescending" because I am confident and assured in my own knowledge, I am seen as just plain rude because I spend more time giving out straight up advice (whether people want to hear it or not) than going through picture topics saying "OMG your new beardie is the cutest!!!!".

I come here because the welfare of Herps in captivity matters to me, far above my regard for how many people like me or not.

I'm really sorry for the people who genuinely believe that all I ever do is say mean nasty things and that I honestly "rarely offer any USEFUL advice to anyone". If you're honest with yourself and have a read through my posting history, sure there will be some posts that you don't like, but to honestly believe that I never give useful advice? Please...

Factually, I am a scientist, a Herpetologist, more experienced and more knowledgeable than the majority of people who use RFUK. Sorry but it's simply true, whether you like the tone of it or not, I am trying to share what I know and have learnt from many other incredibly knowledgeable people.
The people that view that as being up myself, well, it's your loss not mine.

But seriously Weenoff and Knighty, take a look through my posting history and tell me that you won't learn a few things...

Lotte***

P.S: I have always found the Amphibians section the most riddled with ignorance to be honest, the hardest to spread any good advice on and the users of it hardest to convince of anything. Amphibians in my opinion are the most abused group of herps in captivity, the information is out there but it's like going back to the dark ages coming in here after a trip to lizards or snakes... 
I also find, I've had my most ridiculous internet fights in this amphibian section... lol


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

Charlotte may I say that its all well and good not caring what people think of you etc but dont you feel your advice would be more openly and easily received if it want delivered by ballista? Its the human condition, even good advice isnt welcome if it given in hostility, be it actual or perceived.


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## Weenoff (Jun 9, 2008)

I have no desire to read through pages of posts of you undermining other members of RFUK on the off-chance something genuinely interesting might crop up Lotte.

Factually I never questioned you being a scientist or the fact you've work with 'incredibley knowledgeable people'. I questioned the lack of help and advice from yourself, a self proclaimed herpetologist, as the problems are happening! It's very easy to tell someone they did something wrong etc after the animal has passed on.. nothing incredibley knowledgeable about that type of input, which I do find your posts are full of.

I do question your motives also. I find very little of your posts in which you don't blow smoke your own ass. Everything I read is you filling your own ego, putting everybody else's efforts down in an attempt of raising your fantasy little soap-box just that bit higher.

I've wasted too much time on this post already tonight, it really has no positive benefit to the forum and doesn't really shed any of us in good a light.

And as to this nonsense: 
P.S: I have always found the Amphibians section the most riddled with ignorance to be honest, the hardest to spread any good advice on and the users of it hardest to convince of anything. Amphibians in my opinion are the most abused group of herps in captivity, the information is out there but it's like going back to the dark ages coming in here after a trip to lizards or snakes... 
I also find, I've had my most ridiculous internet fights in this amphibian section... lol

All I have to say is.. stick to the lizards and snakes then!


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

I may not be a scientist but i have had my fair share of experience and i have 100% confidence in my knowledge. I have worked in a zoo, an aquatics store and have kept frogs, toads and newts for longer than i care to remember. The list of books i have read goes on for pages and i am willing to share the knowledge i have and try and help people care for there "pets " better. I am also not here to be liked, i am simply here to try and help whilst sharing my experiences. I do find though that your advice goes alot further when you present it appropriately.

I would just like to say that i have no personal problem with anyone on this forum and i am prepared to listen and take heed of what people say.


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## vikki_john (Jul 16, 2007)

Factually, I am a scientist, a Herpetologist, more experienced and more knowledgeable than the majority of people who use RFUK. Sorry but it's simply true, whether you like the tone of it or not, I am trying to share what I know and have learnt from many other incredibly knowledgeable people.
The people that view that as being up myself, well, it's your loss not mine.


I've always liked your posts Lotte............. 

But then you ruin it by saying things like that


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## Pendragon (Dec 8, 2008)

:lol2:

You guys, are too clicky for your own good, it's a shame, it's because of this "violent" opposition to knowledge, that more Knowledgeable people like Lotte stay off these forums. Someone mentioned that you've all read books on keeping herps. The people Lotte works with, write the science papers that these authors use for reference for there books. So your getting the info almost first hand. But as you are all so easly offended by "staight talking", (a clear signe of insecurity kids : victory, you miss the info in favour of a fight.

Remember, "you can't please all of the people all of the time", Ask salman Rushdie. If you post on a public forum, then you will get a public response, sometimes good sometimes bad.

Be gracious in victory, and defeat.


"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."

Albert Einstein

Don't be weak : victory:

Jay


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

No ones offended by straight talking, but there is a difference in straight talking and being rude. And for someone whose apparently opposed to clics...


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

vikki_john said:


> Factually, I am a scientist, a Herpetologist, more experienced and more knowledgeable than the majority of people who use RFUK. Sorry but it's simply true, whether you like the tone of it or not, I am trying to share what I know and have learnt from many other incredibly knowledgeable people.
> The people that view that as being up myself, well, it's your loss not mine.


Lotte = HBIC


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

andaroo said:


> Lotte = HBIC


:2thumb: I rather like the sound of that


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## rafapepa (Jun 7, 2009)

Sorry about your loss Javeo
I think you were right to do a PM because you could probably spot the immediate signs such as stress and why would anyone want to go and spend god knows how much on a vet's PM when you have the skill, knowledge and facilities to perform an educated one yourself?

Hope it all works out in the end!


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

rafapepa said:


> Sorry about your loss Javeo
> I think you were right to do a PM because you could probably spot the immediate signs such as stress and why would anyone want to go and spend god knows how much on a vet's PM when you have the skill, knowledge and facilities to perform an educated one yourself?
> 
> Hope it all works out in the end!


im sorry but how do you think you will see sings of stress in a PM?
the reason any one should want to spend money on a vet is because other than checking the organs and see if it has been eating you can have samples tested for bacterial and fungal infections which im sorry is not some thing that can be done at home.
Having knowledge and a scaple is not enough to qualifie you to do a PM. I am fully aware of the biology of a frog, i could locate the organs and check the gut BUT that does no mean i should be PMing frogs.


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