# Ideal for beginners or not ?



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

I often hear the corn snake quoted as the ideal beginners snake... but are they ?

In my experience, baby corn snakes are usually VERY nervous animals that bite readily and are very afraid of being handled and of open spaces. They are often very bad or fussy feeders and juveniles do not take well to being handled. I can actually think of 3-4 different species of rat snake that are probably more suitable beginners snakes than corn snakes. namely : 

Russian rat snakes : Cool temps, Diurnal and far more placid and personable than any corn snake.
Taiwanese Beauty Snakes : Large and easy to handle snakes, eating machines.
Trinket snakes : Pretty, Placid, Small and extremely rare to find poor feeders.
Diones rat snake - Cool temps, Placid, Small and amazing array of colours and patterns

So do you think corns are the best beginners snakes and if so why ?

and Geckos, BD's, Royals, etc ... are these all good beginners animals or are there better species in your opinion ?


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

I definately agree on the Russian rat front, such sturdy, sensible animals and beautiful to boot.
I think milksnakes are good beginner snakes too, normally very calm, small and manageable and in lots of beautiful colours - much nice than corns IMO.

I have also often wondered why rankins arent more popular than BDs too. They dont eat you out of house and home, dont need huge vivs and are still personable without being too large for a small child to manage. Again they are sturdy and good eaters.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

I think one of the reasons that corns are quoted as beginner snakes even when there might be more suitable rat snakes is because:

1. Readily available. Everyone and their dog breeds corns.
2. Cheap. Because everyone's breeding them, they're easy to come by. Even colour morphs are inexpensive.

Do any of the four species you've mentioned fit those two qualifications (in addition to temperament/etc) ?

That said, I've not been bitten by any of my baby corns, nor had feeding problems or flighty issues (nor have I ever been musked) - possibly because I DON'T try to handle excessively! 

I think one thing to keep in mind is that BABY reptiles generally do not make a good beginner's pet regardless of species. They're quick, they're nervous, they're more likely to stress and have feeding problems. I'd always recommend a grown-on or yearling of any species rather than a baby.

I'd say that leopard geckos ARE pretty good for beginners, even as juveniles... they settle fairly quickly as long as they are well-started by the breeder. 

In my opinion, a royal is probably a good second or third snake, once someone's learned when NOT to mess with the reptile - part of ownership, in my opinion, is learning that if you want something to cuddle, a reptile probably isn't the right pet.


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

well i got a royal as my first snake and have never had any problems whatsoever with him, feeds every time, sheds perfectly, and is really docile..then i got a common boa who is also really good as far as feeding and shedding goes, hes also really nice to handle..

however, i got a baby corn next and although feeding and sheddings fine, he was really skittish when i irst got him, he would bite every time i put my hand near him and you had to be really careful as he used to shoot out the minute you opened his yub lol..that sais, hes really calm now (just after a few weeks) so id say they were good starter snakes if people are prepared to put the time in..


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## yellow_rat_gal (Mar 24, 2007)

Ideal pet for beginners : a stick


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## SuperTed (Apr 19, 2007)

oo not this thread again! all i say is there is no such snake as a "beginners" snake within OBVIOUSLY within reason e.g over 10ft+ or venomous! is not within reason!


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I don't think that corns can be fussy feeders, not if you have the right environment and they are started off well... once mine have had 5+ feeds I would be more than happy to offer a 6 or 12 month guarantee that they will continue feeding regularly unless in shed.. as long as the setup is correct. And for hatchlings I have maybe 1 in 20 non feeders usually... but any reputable breeder would not sell those until they are established.

All the hatchling trinkets I have seen have been VERY feisty, neck puffing and striking - it's often for show, but this could be very offputting for a nervous or first time handler.

My thai beauty also tries to attack anything that moves :lol2: but i've never had an aggressive corn snake... just nervous babies.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

Strange hobby we all partake in isn't it? I mean, if someone was going to get a Rottweiller as their first dog you don't get many people saying "Ooh you ought to get a Yorkshire Terrier first, small, easy to handle....etc".

As Kellogscornsnake said, there really are no beginners 'animals' (within reason and even then it depends on the circumstances), if someone loves dwarf caiman and this is going to be their introduction to reptile keeping, or the only animal they want to keep, then what's the point in starting them off with Leo's? They won't have the interest and won't enjoy it so much. As long as you have the back-up, prior research, hopefully met some examples of what you want to keep, and you are in the position to offer the animal what it needs then go for it is my advice.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Ive found certain morphs or corns to be more aggressive than others, okeetees and bloodred spring to mind, ive heard sunkissed are similar but not had any personal experience of them(yet)

Im not sure where the poor feeding things come from? yeah you may hear of a few non/poor feeders mentioned, but look at the quantity being produced, that happens in amny species but not always mentioned


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## shiva&kaa123 (Jul 20, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> I think one of the reasons that corns are quoted as beginner snakes even when there might be more suitable rat snakes is because:
> 
> 1. Readily available. Everyone and their dog breeds corns.
> 2. Cheap. Because everyone's breeding them, they're easy to come by. Even colour morphs are inexpensive.
> ...


BAxk to the handling/non-handling arguement-I've read hundreds of books which say that handling is a big no-no as it apparently causes them stress but IMO therre are plenty of handleable reptiles, some even seem to enjoy it. 
Obviously handling some reptiles is stupid i.e anything venomous, anything ill, anything that's recently moved/been under alot of stress and then there's things that are to delicate-red eye treefrogs, newly born hatclings etc.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Kellogscornsnake! said:


> oo not this thread again! all i say is there is no such snake as a "beginners" snake within OBVIOUSLY within reason e.g over 10ft+ or venomous! is not within reason!


yeah i never understand the whole beginner thing either, its like something is brought as a stepping stone to something else

Corns are good snakes generally, good temperaments(as a whole), good size, easy to buy captive bred, plenty of choice aesthetically, doesn't need a really tight perimiters in terms of humidy, heat, diet etc


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

I agree on the no real beginier reps, however i think certain snakes/lizards are still a good introduction to the hobby.

on another note, out of our 6 corns the 2 amels are the biggest gits


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

when I got my corn I had no problems at all with either of them, they both eat well even though they were im a 3ft viv and only a few months old never struck or bitten or seemed overly nervous


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## easty (May 4, 2007)

i think they are great beginner snakes, our first and only snake (till wednesday :smile is a corn, we have been one of the very few to get a fussy eater, he seems to be getting better now, but i dont see that as a bad thing as its given me more experiance than if he never refused. 

i dont think there are perfect "beginner" snakes, but i dont think if you do your homework you could get any snake, thats like someone thats just passed their driving test getting a Ferrari Enzo, they will end up dead! I think you need a certain amount of experiance before moving onto bigger or more aggressive species.


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## VieT (Jul 10, 2007)

didnt read all so i dont know if any1 has already said this..

but i elieve ANY snake you research into and ahve the upmost respect for is the perfect starter snake..

obviously no hots. but you get my drift

if some1 has the time-space-money to buy and care for a larger snake then thats what they should get..

i ahve a theory that if you buy any snake as a hatchling.. and it grows whilst you have it... as it gets bigger you should get used to handling it as its bigger..

although burms and such that require 2-3 people to handle could be a problem...

but again if you live with another person(s) then it should be fine 

peace

James


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> I think one of the reasons that corns are quoted as beginner snakes even when there might be more suitable rat snakes is because:
> 
> 1. Readily available. Everyone and their dog breeds corns.
> 2. Cheap. Because everyone's breeding them, they're easy to come by. Even colour morphs are inexpensive.
> ...


No. But the availability and cheapness of animals are rarely mentioned. If someone posts "What snake shall I get" the answer usually comes back as "Corn" or "Royal" ... possibly more to do with people having them to sell rather than their actual suitability as a first snake.



Athravan said:


> I don't think that corns can be fussy feeders, not if you have the right environment and they are started off well...


There are many non-feeding corns about every year.



Athravan said:


> All the hatchling trinkets I have seen have been VERY feisty, neck puffing and striking - it's often for show, but this could be very offputting for a nervous or first time handler.
> 
> My thai beauty also tries to attack anything that moves but i've never had an aggressive corn snake... just nervous babies.


So with Trinkets and Taiwans it's aggression but with corns it's fear ? I have never come across a Taiwan or Trinket that takes any longer to calm down than a corn snake given the right conditions and corn snakes are usually described as placid.



Fixx said:


> Strange hobby we all partake in isn't it? I mean, if someone was going to get a Rottweiller as their first dog you don't get many people saying "Ooh you ought to get a Yorkshire Terrier first, small, easy to handle....etc".


Indeed 

I am not saying that anyone is correct to tout a particular animal as a beginners animal, in any threads that have asked that question, my response has always been that the correct animal is the one you actually want. *But that is not what I am asking with this thread.*

The question is really... given the premise that there is really no ideal starter animal, why are certain animals such as corns, royals, geckos and BD's always quoted as great starter animals ? is it simply because people have lots of them to sell ?


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

I think alot has to do with the general all-roundness of corns as making them good snakes full stop, not just good starter snakes(which bugs me), i've been mentioning corns myself purely based on this fact rather than any other motives

You missed my point with the non feeding thing though, theres a few about based on the fact of how many are produced, its all about the numbers, many people never encounter poor feeders, and usually the ones that do are breeders with the few that never get started, this happens in many species, but isn't always mentioned as theres less breeders(and therefore less that would naturally come forward to say about bad starters) of say, milks or whatever you wanna choose


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## royalpython (Nov 16, 2006)

Corns and royals are largely available you got that bit right, but i'm not sure the sellers are really forcing anyone to buy them. I think shops have probably generalized this themselves? Royals, Leo's and corns are friendly animals - safe to sell to the general public, and have loads available probably for this reason. There are the odd other snake's I see, but there's usually always a royal, corn and leo in a pet shop when ever i'm in one.

My opinion would be, everyone has to start somewhere, as long as they have researched an animal they want, and can provide good husbandry, willing to ask for help, then i see no harm.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

ratboy said:


> No. But the availability and cheapness of animals are rarely mentioned. If someone posts "What snake shall I get" the answer usually comes back as "Corn" or "Royal" ... possibly more to do with people having them to sell rather than their actual suitability as a first snake.


Oddly enough, when I was looking for my first snake and specifically asked what would be most suitable for someone who had some pretty specific ideas of what they wanted... availability and cheapness were something people tried to hammer into me - even though *I* did not mind waiting or paying more! 

I'd originally specified I wanted something that was:

1. Reliable feeder 
2. Not too quick or squiggly (I thought this knocked corns out)
3. No bigger than 6 feet long as an adult
4. Even-tempered and unlikely to bite unless provoked

Someone suggested a common boa as a good first snake, and I said I thought they got too big for me to be comfortable with - but that I'd be more comfortable with a Hogg Island or one of the other dwarf localities. I was promptly shot down "because you won't find one soon, and it'll be expensive." Now, maybe you're right, and that's because this person had some common boa neos to sell ... 

But on visiting someone with a lot of different snakes (including a common boa who confirmed that yes, at the time, a common boa WAS too big and too heavy for me to be happy with - and a pair of Hogg Islands that I immediately loved to bits) ... I wound up choosing a corn based on handling their adult and subadult animals (and a not-as-squiggly-as-I-thought hatchling). 

At that point, however, I HAD owned leopard geckos and was familiar with handling screechy little baby leos, so the baby corn wasn't as daunting as it might have been.

And even though I don't have any baby corns to sell yet - and I DO have some baby Kenyan Sand Boas to sell... I'd recommend the corns as more of a beginner's snake (though the sand boas aren't bad!). I plan to breed Brown House Snakes - and I won't be recommending hatchling/juvenile Housies as a first snake either. 



> So with Trinkets and Taiwans it's aggression but with corns it's fear ? I have never come across a Taiwan or Trinket that takes any longer to calm down than a corn snake given the right conditions and corn snakes are usually described as placid.


I've not met enough Trinkets or Taiwans to make a judgement... but I'd say that in any juvenile/hatchling snake I've ever met it's definitely defensive rather than aggressive behaviour I see if they feel threatened.



> The question is really... given the premise that there is really no ideal starter animal, why are certain animals such as corns, royals, geckos and BD's always quoted as great starter animals ? is it simply because people have lots of them to sell ?


I would say there are certainly BETTER starter animals and more "advanced" animals. One reason people HAVE lots of beardies/leos/corns is because they ARE good starter animals, easy to keep and breed without too much effort. Royals... well, I'd say people tend to have lots of those to sell because they're cheap if they're CF.... and that makes them NOT an ideal starter animal. I know if I'd gotten Theo, our CF male royal, as my first snake, he'd have put me off of keeping any other snake!

I intentionally bought leopard geckos to "start" with in my adult life, with the idea that I'd get the easiest to keep species I could find in order to get a sort of baseline knowledge to build on. The fact that I turned out to LIKE the leos was a bonus!



Fixx said:


> Strange hobby we all partake in isn't it? I mean, if someone was going to get a Rottweiller as their first dog you don't get many people saying "Ooh you ought to get a Yorkshire Terrier first, small, easy to handle....etc".


But then again, a dog is a dog is a dog - they're all _Canis lupus familiaris_ no matter what "morph" they are - though I wouldn't recommend a rottie for someone who's NEVER owned a dog before! They all still have the same basic needs, and if something goes wrong, any vet who can handle a mongrel should be able to handle the Rottie.

But a Corn isn't anything like a Green Tree Python, and a GTP isn't anything like a Royal. They're totally different species, totally different genera, sometimes totally different families, as different to each other as a dog is to a lemur. 

Someone who's new to mammal keeping probably ought to start with something "easy" and domesticated - like a cat, dog or rabbit - rather than starting with something like a lemur or a zebra or a capybara.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I think in suggesting corns as the best starters.. most people are not saying that they are more suitable than other rat snakes or other snakes... you can have many many many snakes that are suitable as starter pets.

I suspect corns are suggested because they are the one that most people know about, there is the most readily amount of info on them (pretty much all reptile shops will probably have a corn snake book or care sheet in stock..) and they are almost always available. People can usually see adults as well as babies when they purchase and they are, I think, without a doubt, the most popular snake, bred in the largest quantities... and people suggest the things that are the most popular.

I personally would suggest corn snakes because I do believe that they are the best "all rounder" coupled with the price and availability... but if someone was looking for something different, there are probably dozens of snakes I could recommend that are perfectly suitable as first time snakes given due research.


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

ratboy said:


> There are many non-feeding corns about every year.


As Jay said, there are - but then there are plenty more feeding corns about each year. A non-feeding hatchling shouldn't be something a novice owner ever has to experience in any species, simply by buying well started snakes from reputable breeders.



ratboy said:


> No. But the availability and cheapness of animals are rarely mentioned. If someone posts "What snake shall I get" the answer usually comes back as "Corn" or "Royal" ... possibly more to do with people having them to sell rather than their actual suitability as a first snake.


That's a very cynical attitude - are we to assume you have trinkets and taiwan rat snakes breeding that you're wanting to sell, since you are suggesting them as ideal beginner's snakes? 

Personally, I think the idea of "starter snakes", with the idea being you move onto something more challenging/interesting to be a really poor one. It makes the animals touted as ideal for beginners (which are normally CB royals and corns) seem somehow less valuable in their own right. I keep mainly corns and royals, not because I'm an inexperienced snake keeper, but because they're the species that I find wonderful to own. I've no intention of graduating into keeping multiple species of rare and delicate rat snakes, or huge pythons and boas - I keep species I love already and most others hold no interest for me whatsoever.

People don't recommend starter breeds in dogs as a general rule, but then sometimes parallel situations do occur. If I decided to buy a Cane Corso as my first dog, then my first stop would be the UK Cane Corso club - where one of the first things they will tell me is that they do NOT recommend CCs to homes that have never owned a large breed before. I'm sure I could get a CC as my first large dog, if I could speak to a breeder, prove my intention to care for and train the dog to a suitable standard, and also spend some time handling, interacting with, and getting to know adult CCs - but a good breeder would simply not let one go before they are sure that the environment I am taking that dog into would be suitable.

If similar mentorship was the norm with snakes, then I think the reliance on "starter species" would decrease. If a novice decided on a GTP (as an example) as their first snake, and that is all they want, forcing them into buying a corn snake or royal python would give them absolutely zero help in how they deal with the GTP once they got it. But a relationship with the breeder of the snake, some experience in actually seeing how the parent animals are maintained and the conditions which they need to thrive, would be much more help. It's also very useful to be able to interact with, handle (if appropriate) and observe the adults of a species before buying your own hatchling/youngster. It's all very well seeing it written on a care sheet, but being able to experience it and see how it translates into a real environment is invaluable.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

toyah said:


> That's a very cynical attitude


I am a naturally cynical person 



toyah said:


> - are we to assume you have trinkets and taiwan rat snakes breeding that you're wanting to sell, since you are suggesting them as ideal beginner's snakes?


I'm not suggesting them as ideal beginner snakes, I am merely stating that they are no less ideal than corn snakes. You may assume that if you want to, but you would be wrong


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

ratboy said:


> I'm not suggesting them as ideal beginner snakes, I am merely stating that they are no less ideal than corn snakes. You may assume that if you want to, but you would be wrong


For me, personally, to recommend something as an "ideal" animal for someone to start with:

1. Of generally even_ adult_ temperament (allowing for babies to be fear-defensive, and accepting that they're individuals)
2. Have habitat requirements easy for a novice to provide and maintain.
3. Relatively harmless - if it's venomous or very large/strong I wouldn't recommend it _personally_. I don't care _how _nice common boas are, I wouldn't suggest one as a first snake if someone asked me.
4. Relatively easy to obtain captive bred specimens.
5. Relatively inexpensive to obtain captive bred specimens.
6. A reliable feeder.
7. Possessed of body language that will be easy for the novice to learn to read.

Now, I agree completely that some other rat snakes may well meet many of these requirements as easily or MORE easily than corns... but people do tend to suggest what they know. 

I mean, I might think an adult brown house snake makes a better pet than a corn (and boy, if I'd known about Cinnamon before I got my first corn, I'd have gotten her and thought about corns later if at all) ... but that doesn't do a novice any good if they can't find an adult brown house snake. I also happen to think a juvenile brown house snake (like our Pepper) could make an absolute nightmare first pet - strikey hissy whippy little bugger!

But I can't say the same about baby corns - they're generally pretty good, and in my experience with bothering pet shops, I've never had a baby corn lash out at me.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Now, I agree completely that some other rat snakes may well meet many of these requirements as easily or MORE easily than corns... but people do tend to suggest what they know.


So why, in your opinion, is it corns, corns, corns ?

The obsoletus complex has just as variable a genetic pool ( or bigger considering there are a number sub-species ) and indeed in the states they are just as sought after as corn snakes, not least because they are available from wild collecting. Indeed a pure black rat snake that is het for nothing is a pretty rare beast.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

ratboy said:


> So why, in your opinion, is it corns, corns, corns ?


Because everyone and their dog has a corn - so they are personally familiar with them and feel qualified to talk about 'em.

Because corns are readily available and cheap - you can find 'em in most "generalist" pet shops, and loads in specialist shops.

Because corns generally don't get over five/six feet long.

Because corns come in hundreds of different colours and patterns.

Because there are half a dozen GOOD books about corns and corn care that have a picture of a corn on the cover.

And because overall, corns are "good" snakes - whether you're starting with 'em or just like 'em.



> The obsoletus complex has just as variable a genetic pool and indeed in the states they are just as sought after as corn snakes, not least because they are available from wild collecting. Indeed a pure black rat snake that is het for nothing is a pretty rare beast.


But then again, I've heard that black and grey rats (not to mention Texas rats) can be stroppy even as adults. I haven't heard of too many stroppy corns. The fact that Obsoletas get larger too - with six and seven feet being not TOO unusual - might put some keepers off. (Incidentally, though I love Pituophis... the size and "hissy" nature would make me unlikely to suggest one as a first snake.)

Yeah, I want a grey rat and a black rat (and a non-leucistic Texas) at some point to fill out my collection of North American Rat Snakes... but I still don't know if I'd recommend one as a first snake.


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

I'm very cynical as you'll find out later in this post. but my list of good starter snakes is very short.

western hognose

thats it, full of character, relatively easy to keep. immensely easy to breed and stay fairly small.

also why are people concerned about young corns biting? if you dont want to get bitten then perhaps keeping wild animals is not for you.

see i am cynical :lol2:


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> But then again, I've heard that black and grey rats (not to mention Texas rats) can be stroppy even as adults. I haven't heard of too many stroppy corns.


Yes they can.... and a bit of attitude and spirit is great in snakes. It's supposed to be there and teaches respect.



Ssthisto said:


> The fact that Obsoletas get larger too - with six and seven feet being not TOO unusual


Agreed ... but why would that be an issue ? Does it matter that a snake is 4 feet or 6 feet ? 



Ssthisto said:


> Yeah, I want a grey rat and a black rat (and a non-leucistic Texas) at some point to fill out my collection of North American Rat Snakes... but I still don't know if I'd recommend one as a first snake.


I would quite happilly recommend any of the obsoleta species as a first snake.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Luton Reptile Rescue said:


> I'm very cynical as you'll find out later in this post. but my list of good starter snakes is very short.
> 
> western hognose
> 
> ...


Dave you taught me all I know about cynicism :notworthy:


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

ratboy said:


> I'm not suggesting them as ideal beginner snakes, I am merely stating that they are no less ideal than corn snakes. You may assume that if you want to, but you would be wrong


I don't think you are posting it in order to sell your own snakes, but I think the assumption on your part that people recommending species that are easy to keep with lots of widely available information available on them are doing it simply so they can sell their own stock is a poor one. You may assume that about other people - but you'd be wrong about lots of them, I imagine.

Ssthisto has a lot of very good and valid points about why they're so widely admired as a good starter snake, and a lot of it will be self-perpetuating to a degree. They're widely available, which contributes to their popularity, which contributes to them being more widely available. They're popular, so publishers can justify publishing books on them, and because there's books available people have information so are more likely to buy them.


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

ive 2 yearling corns 1 that is very mellow and easy to handle and one that is the she devil and snaps everytime, calming down once in the hand but still strikes at sudden movements so hard to say as have 2 with different attitudes


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Ssthisto has made some very valid points. But at the end of the day it is a self perpetuating engine if you like.... a business. Corns are recommended because they are popular and are popular because those who wish to make money out of them by breeding them, writing about them and selling them recommend them as great snakes and that is increased by those that already own them also extolling their virtues.

But what about Leo's and BD's ... is it the same deal ?


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Here's a question that will move the discussion on ... I hope.

If Corns, Leo's and BD's were banned .... what would you keep ?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

ratboy said:


> Here's a question that will move the discussion on ... I hope.
> 
> If Corns, Leo's and BD's were banned .... what would you keep ?


Interesting question. 

If I'd HAD those species and all of a sudden I couldn't keep them (the position I'm in now) ... no lizard could replace leopard geckos properly. I love them and I personally believe they're hands down the BEST first reptile - if not the best lizard generally. I like my little chubby-tailed spotted eyelid kids. Even fat-tailed geckos, though I am quite fond of them, are not quite equivalent. Snakewise, though... I'm a little less picky. I do think corns are good starters, and I do like my corns... but of my favourite four snakes, only one is a corn.

If it hadn't EVER been possible to keep my corns or leos, I'd be looking at:

1. African Fat-tailed geckos. I like 'em - and they're pretty easy. Not as easy as leos and more secretive, but they're nice little critters nonetheless. 
2. Brown House Snakes. Again, I like them based on my experience with them... 
3. Everglades Rat Snakes - I've got one nice one and one who's a little ... fiddly. I respect him, he doesn't bite me. But I'd prefer one I don't have to constantly watch "where's the head." Handling Baz is not relaxing or calming or fun. Handling Irwin, my other 'Glades, is.
4. Some sort of king snake - I do like my Mexican Black, though I've met a few who were apparently nutters. Our Orion's a lap snake.

Hmmm. I seem to like my colubrids generally.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

ratboy said:


> Here's a question that will move the discussion on ... I hope.
> 
> If Corns, Leo's and BD's were banned .... what would you keep ?


for me, leopard snakes would be my first, maybe kings(mountain mainly) and milks


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

ratboy said:


> Yes they can.... and a bit of attitude and spirit is great in snakes. It's supposed to be there and teaches respect.


But for a new owner that's never had a snake before... it can also teach FEAR. 

If I'd gotten a 'stroppy' first snake, it'd have put me off snakes in general. I was lucky that my first bite actually happened about a year after I started keeping snakes - because by then I was confident enough to know what I'd done wrong and how to avoid it next time instead of worrying that every snake I met is going to bite me.

I feel capable of coping with a semi-stroppy snake NOW... but at the beginning it would have killed my desire to own a snake, not encouraged it. 



> Agreed ... but why would that be an issue ? Does it matter that a snake is 4 feet or 6 feet ?


To me it does 

When I was looking for my first snake, I got told "oh, male common boas don't get more than six feet." Now, six feet was my UPPER limit of comfort and really, it still is - my partner might be happy with up to twelve, but I'm not. I'd feel comfortable and confident handling a four or five-foot snake on my own; I don't feel completely comfortable handling a six or seven-foot snake on my own. If nothing else, a four-foot snake is lighter weight and less strong than a seven-footer of the same overall type and build. So in that respect, the difference between Hogg Island four-to-five-foot and Common 6+ feet ... made a world of difference. I handled both courtesy of some friends who used to live in Huddersfield ... and though I liked the Hogg, the Common was just intimidating. 



> I would quite happilly recommend any of the obsoleta species as a first snake.


They're certainly better than some of the alternatives - I'd rather see someone get a stroppy grey or black rat than, say, a fanged tree whip.


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## royalpython (Nov 16, 2006)

> Originally Posted by *ratboy*
> _Here's a question that will move the discussion on ... I hope._
> 
> _If Corns, Leo's and BD's were banned .... what would you keep ?_


phewf, i can still choose royal pythons lol

I was quite the opposite.. i must only have owned my royal for about 6 months.. found out a friend of mine had been sold a royal and she was grumpy with ticks on her.. we pressumed wild caught... when i went over i was cautious with her, but she bit me 3 times within 1 second, and i managed to handle her and calm her down a bit... not bad considering i only had 6 months experience with my first royal ever


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

royalpython said:


> phewf, i can still choose royal pythons lol


OK... so change the question to "If your preferred species of reptile was banned... what would you keep ?"


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

leopards everytime then:no1:


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## CaseyM (Nov 8, 2006)

Id keep GTPs if the species i keep now were banned. It would force me into taking the step into something ive always wanted to do.


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## hogboy (Aug 22, 2006)

I've been keeping snakes since the early 80's, im that old :lol2:
Over the years i've kept a huge range of snakes, from Mangroves (pre DWA) most NA ratsnakes, asian rats, Superdwarf retics, kings, royals etc#
But finally have ended up with a collection of 80% Corns, i think Tanya got me started on these last summer, previously i think i had one corn in all those years.
A well started corn is in my opinion a great beginners snake, arguably more attractive than most NA rats, stay fairly small, almost all have a very good disposition, and from a genetics side loads of fun to be had.
Always the chance to create a totally new morph.
I like a lot of the royal morphs too, just don't have deep enough pockets to
get as involved as i would have liked, but dont really see the attraction of normal royals though ?
Only came across this forum a few months ago, and the likes of Cornmorphs, caveman etc have really ignited my enthusiasm for Corns.
Cant wait to get my next one :smile:


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## candoia aspera (Mar 5, 2007)

i'm not up to date with rat snakes but those madarines would be my wepon of choice - our lass loves her corns though


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

hogboy said:


> I've been keeping snakes since the early 80's, im that old :lol2:
> Over the years i've kept a huge range of snakes, from Mangroves (pre DWA) most NA ratsnakes, asian rats, Superdwarf retics, kings, royals etc#
> But finally have ended up with a collection of 80% Corns, i think Tanya got me started on these last summer, previously i think i had one corn in all those years.
> A well started corn is in my opinion a great beginners snake, arguably more attractive than most NA rats, stay fairly small, almost all have a very good disposition, and from a genetics side loads of fun to be had.
> ...


 
im the same, i used to keep about 30-40 differnt snake species and after 18 years its nearly all corns i got now, funny aint it:lol2:


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## hogboy (Aug 22, 2006)

captaincaveman said:


> im the same, i used to keep about 30-40 differnt snake species and after 18 years its nearly all corns i got now, funny aint it:lol2:


So we're both beginners again :lol2:
Odd thing is looking through the US forums, see something i like, and 99/100 its bleeding expensive, thought sulphurs looked nice, turns out they are $$$ silly money, same with Lavas and pretty anything that catches my eye.
At least the most high end corn morph is probably not much more than £1000, and most below £500


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

hogboy said:


> So we're both beginners again :lol2:
> Odd thing is looking through the US forums, see something i like, and 99/100 its bleeding expensive, thought sulphurs looked nice, turns out they are $$$ silly money, same with Lavas and pretty anything that catches my eye.
> At least the most high end corn morph is probably not much more than £1000, and most below £500


 
yeah, im happy to just sit and wait though, i really want a butter stripe, but im waiting for the prices to come back

ive got my dream ones anyway, abbotts okeetees, my next dream is butter stripe, lav bloodred and caramel sunkissed, then ultimately amelZ, but abbotts are still gonna be my favourites


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## hogboy (Aug 22, 2006)

I'd quite like some striped Bloods, pied sideds and some killer Hypo lav's
Plus a stunning pair of Abbotts as well


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

hogboy said:


> I'd quite like some striped Bloods, pied sideds and some killer Hypo lav's
> Plus a stunning pair of Abbotts as well


 
yeah i'd take them too:lol2:


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## tom1400 (Jan 21, 2007)

probably one of the best beginner snakes. All they need is to get used to handling. As soon as thats over they should be fine, same with every snake or reptile really. Give it the attention it needs and it will like you.


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## royalpython (Nov 16, 2006)

If I couldn't have royal pythons, i'd probably go after boa's, carpet pythons or GTP's. I quite like the look of retic's, but their size puts me off.


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## LeeH (Jan 26, 2005)

i think 'beginner' seems to automatically mean they know nothing so cornsnake or leopard gecko is the only thing thats suitable when theres literally loads that are suitable animals but just need a tweak to put up humidity a bit more or get some branches in the cage
i know a few that didn't start with the ol cornsnake or leopard gecko..they started with boas,burms or iguanas and theyve still got them so i suppose attitude and how you approach it is another thing but the thing is you learn by doing...if you want a blood python or say a carpet python why keep a cornsnake or if you want to keep a chameleon why keep a bearded dragon so i do believe attitude does have a lot to do so go with what you were intrested with at the start but just spend a bit of time making sure its the right speices for you as i see a few are specialist breeders of a certain animal like boids and theyd never have got the experience and for the intrest to grow into a specialisation without actually taking the leap to keep them.


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## Paul Chase (Mar 7, 2007)

I think a beginers snakes should be a snake that the beginer wants. If a beginer realy likes the look and the strength of a royal but gets a corn snake because he/she was told they are good beginers snakes, they could easily lose interest in snakes very quickly as it was not the snake he/she originally wanted, and the poor corn could then get neglected.
i too started with snakes in the early 1980's, and my first 3 snakes were a garter snake, smooth green snake and a burm.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

butter morph said:


> I think a beginers snakes should be a snake that the beginer wants. If a beginer realy likes the look and the strength of a royal but gets a corn snake because he/she was told they are good beginers snakes, they could easily lose interest in snakes very quickly as it was not the snake he/she originally wanted, and the poor corn could then get neglected.
> i too started with snakes in the early 1980's, and my first 3 snakes were a garter snake, smooth green snake and a burm.


 
funny that, my first snake was a florida blue garter, then royal, then coastal carpet


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

I don't think young boas are that bad a starter snake...you're going to have about a year of experience before they breach 4foot really.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

My very first was a russian rat snake. I bought him from a shop in Ashford in Kent.

I was looking at corns, as everyone does then came across the russian parents and my jaw dropped. The guy let me have a hold of the father and that was that ... I had to have one... so I spent about an hour talking to the shop owner who had bred them himself and bought a book on rat snakes. I read all I could about them ( Very little info other than temperature and food requirements ) and then went back and bought one. Six months later, I went back and bought another. 

For extra research I joined the Kingsnake.com forums and got talking to Terry Cox about russians and went from there. It was Terry that really ignited my love affair with them and they will always be my favorite species.


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

VieT said:


> didnt read all so i dont know if any1 has already said this..
> 
> but i elieve ANY snake you research into and ahve the upmost respect for is the perfect starter snake..
> 
> ...


I completely disagree with you on this one Viet,I think there are MANY species unsuitable for 1st time keepers,and some unsuitable for keeper's with even a good few years experience.Are you suggesting that by reading up 1st a new keeper could successfully & safely keep large Retics with no previous snake handling,feeding or husbandry history? or perhaps ETB's? snakes that are often a serious challenge to keepers with 20+ years experience?
To suggest that a new keeper would be fine to keep a Burmese python as long as they live with another person is,frankly,not only daft,but dangerous in my opinion.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

barrym said:


> I completely disagree with you on this one Viet,I think there are MANY species unsuitable for 1st time keepers,and some unsuitable for keeper's with even a good few years experience.Are you suggesting that by reading up 1st a new keeper could successfully & safely keep large Retics with no previous snake handling,feeding or husbandry history? or perhaps ETB's? snakes that are often a serious challenge to keepers with 20+ years experience?
> To suggest that a new keeper would be fine to keep a Burmese python as long as they live with another person is,frankly,not only daft,but dangerous in my opinion.


Something is only hard if you have something else to compare it to.

If for your first snake you keep an ETB and then later get a corn snake then it is very easy to keep a corn but no harder to keep the ETB.

Everyone is judging the requirements based on what they already know/do. Something a new keeper would be unable to do.

EDIT:
If so many people weren't completely irresponsible then i would actually suggest keeping something we view as hard as the first reptile. That way herping life can only get easier.


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## easty (May 4, 2007)

reticulatus said:


> Something is only hard if you have something else to compare it to.
> 
> If for your first snake you keep an ETB and then later get a corn snake then it is very easy to keep a corn but no harder to keep the ETB.
> 
> ...


Ive said it once and il say it again, no matter how much research you have done you shouldnt go out and keep a large retic or similar as your first snake, im not saying it should be a corn or a royal but there is "harder" or "more challenging" and then there is just plain stupid! 

so from what your saying if somone had JUST passed their driving test, you would trust them with the likes of a ferrari enzo or a lamborghini merculago?


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

Dan's back!About time too!lol Arguments a plenty on the horizon,lmao good to see you back Reticulatus, not been the same around here.
Once again we will have to agree to disagree but I do concur with your edit,if irresponsibility could be eliminated then this would be a totally different discussion I think.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

easty said:


> Ive said it once and il say it again, no matter how much research you have done you shouldnt go out and keep a large retic or similar as your first snake, im not saying it should be a corn or a royal but there is "harder" or "more challenging" and then there is just plain stupid!
> 
> so from what your saying if somone had JUST passed their driving test, you would trust them with the likes of a ferrari enzo or a lamborghini merculago?


It is ONLY stupid if you treat the large constrictor you speak of as you would a smaller snake. If the person has done his/her research then they will treat the animal as it should be - which would probably end up making them better keepers than the majority out there today.

Oh and how many rich kids drive around in flash cars from the word go?

This is all about perspective - Everyone is projecting there own perspectives on to the "new owner", as usual.

Barry, not really back - just having a couple of days off from renovating a new house so i thought i'd pop on and annoy as many people as possible in as short a time as possible before the show where they all turn up to give me a kicking :lol2:


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

reticulatus said:


> Something is only hard if you have something else to compare it to.
> 
> If for your first snake you keep an ETB and then later get a corn snake then it is very easy to keep a corn but no harder to keep the ETB.
> 
> ...


If ETB's were suggested to everyone as a first snake then there'd be a lot of sick/dead ETB's out there IMO.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Fangio said:


> If ETB's were suggested to everyone as a first snake then there'd be a lot of sick/dead ETB's out there IMO.


Taking out the idiot factor, why?

If someone does the research properly then why would it lead to deaths?

What's so hard about spraying a viv, or feeding smaller prey items and what ever else an ETB needs that others don't?


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

reticulatus said:


> Taking out the idiot factor, why?
> 
> If someone does the research properly then why would it lead to deaths?
> 
> What's so hard about spraying a viv, or feeding smaller prey items and what ever else an ETB needs that others don't?


You can't take away the "idiot factor" when it comes to someone that has never had a snake before. Pure lack of experience in dealing with snakes that require more specialist attention is all.


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

reticulatus said:


> It is ONLY stupid if you treat the large constrictor you speak of as you would a smaller snake. If the person has done his/her research then they will treat the animal as it should be - which would probably end up making them better keepers than the majority out there today.
> 
> Oh and how many rich kids drive around in flash cars from the word go?
> 
> ...


:lol2::lol2::lol2: I'll be there!
















Thats a joke before any mods get bent out of shape about threats etc :lol2:


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Fangio said:


> You can't take away the "idiot factor" when it comes to someone that has never had a snake before. Pure lack of experience in dealing with snakes that require more specialist attention is all.


In that single quote you have proven my point.

The ONLY reason you know that ETB's (as the example) need more speciallist attention is because you have experience with other species.

If you didnt have previous experience or knowledge then to you it would just be what you do and not speciallist or hard.


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

reticulatus said:


> In that single quote you have proven my point.
> 
> The ONLY reason you know that ETB's (as the example) need more speciallist attention is because you have experience with other species.
> 
> If you didnt have previous experience or knowledge then to you it would just be what you do and not speciallist or hard.


OK but it wouldn't make their care any easier.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

barrym said:


> :lol2::lol2::lol2: I'll be there!


No worries, just look for my table. I'll have lots of corn snakes. Also i'll be using the name Nige that day :grin1:


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Fangio said:


> OK but it wouldn't make their care any easier.


What is ACTUALLY hard about keeping any snake?

You set up the viv, as per your research. 
You feed the animal, as per your research.

What's the hard bit?

Like anything in life, it's only hard if you don't know the answer.


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

reticulatus said:


> What is ACTUALLY hard about keeping any snake?
> 
> You set up the viv, as per your research.
> You feed the animal, as per your research.
> ...


The answers come with time and experience, that and keeping an animal for yourself of course.

Lets say for a moment you were recommended one of the more specialist snakes as a starter and it died........would it put you off getting another? I'd say it would most beginners. 

There are many species out there that will live ok in less-than ideal conditions but something like an ETB or GTP isn't gonna survive long if not looked after correctly. You really can't ignore the idiot factor. It's not an ideal world where everyone does their homework unfortunately.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

You've got the whole speciallist thing stuck on replay!!

It is only speciallist to someone who knows about others. To someone who doesn't know it is just a normal snake and that's how you look after them. Nothing speciallist about it.

Yes, they may be put off - but no more by that than they would if a corn died. Taking your speciallist bit further, would you rather find out that the snake you just killed was hard to keep or actually pretty easy and you STILL screwed it up?

You can't ignore the idiot factor, no. But then if they are going to make a mess of it then they will no matter the species - who are we to value a speciallist snakes life higher than an easy snake? All life is equally as valuable is it not?

The key to all of this is removing all of our own preconceptions of snakes from the conversation. Once you have done that then all you are left with is how to care for an animal. At that stage none are harder than the other, just different.
Anyone that buys a snake with proper research will be able to keep that animal happily. Without the research however you are likely to end up with problems no matter the species.


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

reticulatus said:


> No worries, just look for my table. I'll have lots of corn snakes. Also i'll be using the name Nige that day :grin1:



:no1::lol2::lol2:


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## SuperTed (Apr 19, 2007)

i dont see the problem in someone getting a boa as a first snake to be honest as long as they know the potential size etc although i would recommend them getting a baby boa which then they get a year or two to get "used" to the snake whilst its small in which by then they will have a bit more experience and be able to handle a bigger snake..


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

reticulatus said:


> You've got the whole speciallist thing stuck on replay!!
> 
> It is only speciallist to someone who knows about others. To someone who doesn't know it is just a normal snake and that's how you look after them. Nothing speciallist about it.
> 
> ...


Just because you don't KNOW an animal is slightly more harder to look after doesn't mean that it isn't. If you have done all the necessary research and got get a ETB and look after it well then great. I still will never personally recommend one to anyone as a starter.


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## royalpython (Nov 16, 2006)

i can see both points of view...

I owned a royal for my first snake, people on here believe they are not good first snakes, but obviously you know i'm gonna say i think they are.. everyone has to learn at some point or another.

In terms of GTP's, when someone told me they were difficult, and i asked why... they told me they spray the tank every other day... i was like "ok"! That's not difficult, all it takes is about 0.1 calories, from a bowl of breakfast cerial and you're laughing really


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## royalpython (Nov 16, 2006)

The difficult bit with owning GTP's would be - not being able to handle them for the first year  lol


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Then again... the idea behind recommending a "starter" reptile is the idea that the setup is easier to get right, the feeding is easier to get right, that generally speaking it's an animal that is more forgiving of minor problems with environment.

I was gutted when my first "indoor" snake died (a garter snake I got when I was twelve) ... and swore I wouldn't have another. 

And when I finally did get into snakes again (nearly fifteen years later) I decided the best place to START was "something that's similar in terms of environmental requirements to the geckos I'm already working with" - namely, heat mat, thermostat, similar temperatures, no fiddly humidity requirements... 

Now I'm more confident that I can maintain "A snake" - and am willing to try maintaining more complex environments suitable for more complex species.


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## royalpython (Nov 16, 2006)

would anyone say owning a dog is high maintenance? Most people manage that well enough, and they need fresh water, and food every day, not to much long walks. If someone really wanted a GTP, and had the right information, i don't see how it would be anymore difficult than owning a dog, less demanding i'd say? No?

I understand the point about environment needing to be right, but i still feel that making sure humdity is right is easily overcome... every other day, spray the tanks... surely anyone can manage that?


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## chellenjon (Aug 26, 2007)

have to disagree sorry, we got our corns as hatchlings and didn't know a thing about them until we read books and searched the internet, we havn't had 1 single problem and are all very good feeders and are very tame, we havn't been bitten once by any of them.


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

I've had god knows how many baby corns and only a few have bitten me. Yet I almost got 'eaten' (lol) by a thai beauty. I have or had lots of rat snakes (inc the ones metioned) but I still think a corn is the best starter.


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## leogirl (Oct 1, 2006)

i think all species have advantages and disadvantages of being a good first rep. i think leo's are good starters. compared to other rep's there needs are fairly simple. but if your heart is set on somethin big, and your prepared to read and learn, there would be no point goin for somethin like a leo. all down to how much your willing to learn.
thats enought thinkin for me today


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## tamboh (Mar 28, 2008)

my corn was a pain in the a**. wouldnt eat unless her food was warn. my taiwanese beauty on the other hand eats like a pig, anything you put in front of him. hes also a lot more "fun" if you like, has a lot more energy


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