# Dubias won't breed.



## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

It's been well over two months now. I have a colony of about 50 dubias and it's been running for two months. 40 female and 10 male and they have not breeded, I have never even seen the ootheca sticking out once.

Every 2 days I check on them, to replace food, collect shed skin and check if they need more oats.

The setup is in a deep RUB with a heat mat underneath. The lid has a square hole which I covered with mesh and inside I have two bowls, one for fruits and veg (mostly for hydration) and the other for quaker oats.

I have about 7 egg cartons stacked vertically on one side so the poop drops to the ground.

For the first month I fed them just fruits and veg like zucchini, cucumber, lettuce, parsnips, strawberries and applies. Second month I started feeding them oranges as I heard they breed like crazy on that stuff.

And still nothing. I have fat females and agile males, well developed but man I do not have anything, not a single baby.

Room temperatures are rising to 86F as it's summer now and it's getting really hot and humid. The humidity is fine, I suffered one or two loses due to improper sheds but that's 2 sheds out of 50 that I have collected so the majority are shedding fine.

Every now and again I find one or two males dead, I assume it's the males fighting each other and it's not the first time I heard wing flapping and thumping in the tub. The tub is in my room.

I also keep an old washrag(clean) and cover the top up so it limits the light as I heard they are most active in the dark.

Any idea what's wrong? Why won't they breed?


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

I keep my hot end of the tub a little hotter at 90f but I wouldn't have thought the 4f difference would have affected things much. 

They do love oranges but a study showed that they actually bred less when fed them.

Protein is a big part of the diet helping them breed and grow quickly. I would try and add a bit of protein in the diet. the best form is vegetable protein so that no animal protein is passed on to the animal the roaches are fed to. I personally use tortoise pellets which are not great for tortoises but great for roaches!


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## 170pand (Dec 22, 2008)

Food wise I use cat food dry stuff and water cystals 
I supply a pet shop 20 tubs every week and about 15 in a tuband have no problems keeping up with that
I have the tub on top of a snake viv in rep room so nice and warm cartons above heat source food shattered along one end and bowl for water crystals and breed loads


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

That's super great that you guys have things going but it doesn't help me. My intention is to just supply my dragons with a constant food supply but yet here I am stuck on another failed breeding project.

I am actually selling my dragons cause of this. I can't keep up and food is becoming too expensive and also hard to get without spending such a fortune.

I don't understand why my roaches are not breeding. This is supposed to be an infamous fast food source yet within 2 months not even 1 female has had any babies. Not even one small freckle.



Bradley said:


> keep my hot end of the tub a little hotter at 90f but I wouldn't have thought the 4f difference would have affected things much.
> 
> They do love oranges but a study showed that they actually bred less when fed them.
> 
> Protein is a big part of the diet helping them breed and grow quickly. I would try and add a bit of protein in the diet. the best form is vegetable protein so that no animal protein is passed on to the animal the roaches are fed to. I personally use tortoise pellets which are not great for tortoises but great for roaches!


You have misread. My room is reaching temps of 86F. The roaches are still on a heat mat, so combined together their tub must be well over 90F

I am not sure about the orange slices causing them to breed less, I have read it all over the place, on every care sheet and seen it on every video that orange slices makes them breed faster.


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## tropicaljoey (Feb 27, 2013)

iv had mine for about 3 weeks now and nothing yet, take some of your egg cartons out, if you only have 50 dubias then they wont need that many in there, the less egg cartons then the more the dubias will meet and a better chance to breed, then add more egg cartons when u get more and breed them, don't feed oranges as they slow breeding and that's all i can say really, try the egg cartron thing though coz thats definitely worth a try :2thumb:


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

tropicaljoey said:


> iv had mine for about 3 weeks now and nothing yet, take some of your egg cartons out, if you only have 50 dubias then they wont need that many in there, the less egg cartons then the more the dubias will meet and a better chance to breed, then add more egg cartons when u get more and breed them, don't feed oranges as they slow breeding and that's all i can say really, try the egg cartron thing though coz thats definitely worth a try :2thumb:


most of them hang around these 2 egg cartons and huddle together. Some of the smaller nymphs which I've added later on just scatter about on the other egg cartons but I will lessen and hope it gets better I suppose


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## amazing_gecko (Sep 3, 2009)

Ditto what the last post said about less egg crates until your colony grows. 

I'm not sure how you monitor your RUB temps but ideally you want the heat mat on the inside of the RUB with a thermostat attached keeping the temperature stable inside. Is the temp inside a stable 86F? If you don't have a stat then I'm just wondering if there's some major fluctuating of the temps inside the RUB. Roaches do appreciate a focused heat source close to them and just wonder if they're getting enough penetration through the plastic.

Also, I find the females like laying their eggs at the cooler end of the RUB in used Kitchen Roll tubes or similar so you might try something similar. If that works it might indicate that they are in fact too hot at the hot end.

Sorry you're not having a good experience but try not to give up yet. It only takes one female to start the ball rolling and you'll be glad you didn't give up.

James


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

amazing_gecko said:


> Ditto what the last post said about less egg crates until your colony grows.
> 
> I'm not sure how you monitor your RUB temps but ideally you want the heat mat on the inside of the RUB with a thermostat attached keeping the temperature stable inside. Is the temp inside a stable 86F? If you don't have a stat then I'm just wondering if there's some major fluctuating of the temps inside the RUB. Roaches do appreciate a focused heat source close to them and just wonder if they're getting enough penetration through the plastic.
> 
> ...


The heat mat is underneath the plastic RUB, it's not attached to a thermostat but I've monitored this heat source before using digital thermometers and it gets to a stable 102F

Most likely it is fluctuating but nothing too serious, there is more than enough heat for sure so I am unsure if that is the cause of their slow breeding.

I'll try and lessen the egg crates and see if that does any difference. I'll also give the toilet paper roll a go. I'll place some on the cool end.

I know it takes patience and I am on the verge of giving up and count it as wasted money but I am not going to. I said I'll give them a chance till september, if nothing then I'll start feeding them off.

So far it all just looks like wasted time and money though, and it's saddening 

I've placed the heat mat on the side of the rub but the next morning I found a roach dry as a bone so I've put the mat under the rub again.

Should I place my egg crates vertically or horizontally?


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## mrkeda (Nov 6, 2012)

Vertically and heat mat back on the side.


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

mrkeda said:


> Vertically and heat mat back on the side.


Won't the heat mat burn the roaches and dry them out if I place inside? :-/


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## Galactic Mushroom (Mar 8, 2013)

My heat mat is inside my tub without a stat it's well ventilated and dosent get too hot got a couple egg boxes and those cardboard cup holders you get from McDonald's as hiding places lol. Most of mine tend to hide under the heat matt anyway 

Food I use is oranges, carrot, lettuce, apple, cucumber and then water crystals in a little pot as well as a dish of my home made chow Which is basically ground oats with some other stuff thrown in. Had mine for about 2 months and started with about 20 medium roaches and now have plenty little babies scurrying about + in all that time I've only picked out 2 dead roaches


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Galactic Mushroom said:


> My heat mat is inside my tub without a stat it's well ventilated and dosent get too hot got a couple egg boxes and those cardboard cup holders you get from McDonald's as hiding places lol. Most of mine tend to hide under the heat matt anyway
> 
> Food I use is oranges, carrot, lettuce, apple, cucumber and then water crystals in a little pot as well as a dish of my home made chow Which is basically ground oats with some other stuff thrown in. Had mine for about 2 months and started with about 20 medium roaches and now have plenty little babies scurrying about + in all that time I've only picked out 2 dead roaches


What wattage is your heat mat? Mine is as big as an A4 paper and it's 20W so it gets really hot hence why I placed it under the RUB as I don't want to cook the roaches.

I am still unwary about placing the heat mat inside.


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## Galactic Mushroom (Mar 8, 2013)

I'm using a 11x11 inch 12w habistat heat mat


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## philipniceguy (Mar 31, 2008)

to me your setup sounds fine. I use no heat mat but room is 27'c almost always (they kept in a varanus sp room). small numbers of dubia mean they take a long time to breed. crowded roaches breed faster no idea why but they do. 

maybe but them in a smaller tub for now. feed more protein eg add some dry dog food to your already good mix of foods :2thumb:

hope this helps


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## sue59 (Oct 31, 2010)

I am interested to read this as I am having problems with my Turkistan roaches as well . It was a good colony and producing loads of young but now it has slowed to the point where I have had to stop feeding my cresties on them. I have a rub with an unstatted heat mat, dog/cat food, veg and water crystals. Two things have changed but can't see how these could have affected their breeding but I am prepared to listen to any ideas as I want them to,start breeding again. First change :- I started giving them oranges as someone said it would help them breed faster, second change I have removed some of the males as they were out numbering the females. 
I hope you don't think I have hijacked your thread but we both seem to be having the same problems :2thumb:


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## Paul112 (Apr 6, 2007)

Major piece of advice; stop checking them every 2 days. Once a week is plenty to check food and veg, the more you keep disturbing them, the less they'll breed.

Don't check on them for a week, and see what happens.

Best,
Paul


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Paul112 said:


> Major piece of advice; stop checking them every 2 days. Once a week is plenty to check food and veg, the more you keep disturbing them, the less they'll breed.
> 
> Don't check on them for a week, and see what happens.
> 
> ...


I'm afraid of rot and fungal growth as I've read countless time it's a killer. Food rots away easily, specially veggies hence why I check every 2 days. I found mold growing way too many times on uneaten orange slices and veggie peels.


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## Paul112 (Apr 6, 2007)

Take the foods out and replace it with a wedge of potato. They won't starve in a week, and potato slices usually provide lasting moisture without molding.

It'll take a while to find your balance with the food, my colonies are at a point where I can literally chuck a few handfuls of food in every week or 2, and leave it at that maintenance wise.

Best,
Paul


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## Galactic Mushroom (Mar 8, 2013)

I thought tatty was not supposed to be used? And I change veg every 3 days because I have seen mold in there


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## amazing_gecko (Sep 3, 2009)

Pyrite said:


> The heat mat is underneath the plastic RUB, it's not attached to a thermostat but I've monitored this heat source before using digital thermometers and it gets to a stable 102F
> 
> Most likely it is fluctuating but nothing too serious, there is more than enough heat for sure so I am unsure if that is the cause of their slow breeding.
> 
> ...


I'm not surprised that roach was bone dry if your mat maxes out at 102F, that's nearly 40C! Your 20W heat mat sounds like it's probably too powerful and too focused. 

I know what works for one person doesn't always work for others but based on your setup not working something has to change and I would say 9/10 times it'll be the temps not being right. It would be really helpful to know what your temps are inside the RUB.

On my setup I use a long narrow heatmat which wraps around the inside of the RUB and gives a nicely distributed 28C/82F heat around the crates (vertical) and my colony thrives. Keeping the temp below 30C/86F discourages mould growth too. I've taped the mat in place so that very little bare mat is exposed. Occasionally, an adult will get a foot stuck but the heat never killed any.

Roaches are scavengers and will eat most food stuffs so don't worry about what you're feeding them. Oranges may or may not accelerate breeding rates but it won't magically kick start a colony that isn't breeding at all.

Someone has already mentioned roaches that are crowded breeding faster and I can echo that advice so again, try and make their hiding places more compact.

Time will tell!

James


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## philipniceguy (Mar 31, 2008)

Pyrite said:


> I'm afraid of rot and fungal growth as I've read countless time it's a killer. Food rots away easily, specially veggies hence why I check every 2 days. I found mold growing way too many times on uneaten orange slices and veggie peels.


easy answer to that. stop feeding so much so often : victory:. I provide my groups food once a month. the way I do it mind will not work in small numbered groups : victory:


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

amazing_gecko said:


> I'm not surprised that roach was bone dry if your mat maxes out at 102F, that's nearly 40C! Your 20W heat mat sounds like it's probably too powerful and too focused.
> 
> I know what works for one person doesn't always work for others but based on your setup not working something has to change and I would say 9/10 times it'll be the temps not being right. It would be really helpful to know what your temps are inside the RUB.
> 
> ...


My suspicion is on the heat as well. I have a small heat mat, 30cm X 15cm, which is what I was originally using but again it was not giving the right amount of heat.

I have some thermometers, I could take a reading. Where should I place the probe to take a good reading? Directly on the heatmat?


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## Spreebok (Jul 4, 2012)

You mention you have Beardies, so I must ask! Do you keep them in a wooden viv? I ask as my colony is thriving (babies out my ears every day) and I have always kept them on top of my Beardies viv, above where the heat lamp is. I do this because the lamp warms the wood up to the perfect temp for my Dubia Roaches, not too hot, not too cold. Cats were peeved they lost their favourite nap spot, but maybe it's something you could try instead of using an unstatted heat mat?

Other than that, my colony is in a 12ltr rub, with a few egg boxes stacked on each other, and are given carrot regularly (when they eat whats in there or before it moulds) as well as my Beardies veg left overs and the odd few orange slices as a treat. I take the lid off every few days to allow them to air out a bit and get some nice fresh air and they seem to do well on it. They're well hydrated, so it can get a bit condensated in there at times, hence the airing every now and again, but they seem to like it, so maybe by keeping them too hot on your mat, they're dehydrated and hence not breeding?

Edit: Forgot to mention, Dubia Roaches can take a looong time to get going. I've had my colony for about 8 months, and it's only in the last month/month and a half that I've eben able to consistantly feed my Beardie with them without causing problems.

Also,m going to sound odd, but are you sure your roaches are adults? I'm sure they are, but just incase, Adult Doobs are nice and shiney and the males have long wings


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Spreebok said:


> You mention you have Beardies, so I must ask! Do you keep them in a wooden viv? I ask as my colony is thriving (babies out my ears every day) and I have always kept them on top of my Beardies viv, above where the heat lamp is. I do this because the lamp warms the wood up to the perfect temp for my Dubia Roaches, not too hot, not too cold. Cats were peeved they lost their favourite nap spot, but maybe it's something you could try instead of using an unstatted heat mat?
> 
> Other than that, my colony is in a 12ltr rub, with a few egg boxes stacked on each other, and are given carrot regularly (when they eat whats in there or before it moulds) as well as my Beardies veg left overs and the odd few orange slices as a treat. I take the lid off every few days to allow them to air out a bit and get some nice fresh air and they seem to do well on it. They're well hydrated, so it can get a bit condensated in there at times, hence the airing every now and again, but they seem to like it, so maybe by keeping them too hot on your mat, they're dehydrated and hence not breeding?
> 
> ...


Yes I keep my beardies in a wooden vivarium. Both of them and before someone screams out "OMG YOU CAN'T KEEP BEARDIES TOGETHER" I'd like to clarify that each one has their own vivarium.

And yes I am 100000000% sure that my roaches can't get any more mature than they are right now. They are huge, shiny, very dark and plump looking. Females have the stub wings and the males have the long paper thin wings. Segment of males is very thin and leaneant and segment on females is wide and thick. The nymphs I've added about 2 weeks ago are all female as well. I've posted a topic on how I could tell between male and female and got some good information and learnt how to tell. Some of the nymphs have a long way to go and some of the nymphs are just a couple of sheds away from becoming full fledged adults.

But all in all I have at least 40 full fledged females and 10 full fledged males. I am 10000000% sure again that they are more than capable of breeding.

I have taken most egg crates out and only left them with two. Instead of orange slices I am not giving them cucumber and am not going to disturb them again till next Tuesday and that is to check for food and mold as some one on here suggested that I should not disturb them so often. So we'll see

The wooden vivs don't get very hot, the basking lamps are on clamp lamps and the wood doesn't feel hot at all so I doubt it would help with heating the colony.

My apartment is an all out oven when summer hits and it has already hit. It's getting very hot and humid in my country, specially my apartment since I am on the top floor.

I really don't know what else I can do. Right now I am just trying to find good homes for my beardies, possibly some one who has a money tree and trying to get a bit of cash back from the equipment I have.

I will keep the roaches and give them a chance till September so I could say I would have at least gave them a 5month chance before abandoning this failed project. If it works out I might consider getting lizards again but till then I think I will just stick to snakes, it seems to be more of my forte, or abandon the whole hobby all together, I'm obviously awful at it and too poor to afford it.:lol2:


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## Spreebok (Jul 4, 2012)

Hmm, not sure why they're not breeding then. I know 40c is a bit hot for them, so either stat the mat or remove it and keep them somewhere warm, and make sure they are hydrated. Cucumber is okay for water, but contains bugger all nutrients, so try courgette if you want something similar, as it has a bit more in it.


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## zzxxy (Aug 28, 2011)

Ok. my roach colonies are kept at 31c constant, Fed every other day with an apple or two and at least 6 weetabix per colony ( several thousand assorted sizes in there at any given time ) and i don't have an issue. They are also ged other bits and bobs as and when but if nothing else, they get apples and weetabix. They seem to prefer red apples too for some reason...
To me, It sounds like you arew disturbing the colony too much and stressing out the roaches so that they won't breed coupled with perhaps an oversized tub for the amount of roaches there are. I found that i used 3 different sized tubs as my original colony grew ( 18 months ago ) and now they are in large rub's and breeding like there is no tomorrow. 
If you are worried about rotting food. Do this, Put the food in a cool spot, That will stop it cooking / rotting so much. Also, make sure that the food is away from the egg cartons / McDonald's drinks holders / toilet rolls or whatever you use. That way, you can change food etc. without disturbing the roaches. Roaches DO eat their old shed's so leave these in there. They should only need cleaning every 4 to 8 weeks depending on how many are in there. I ALWAYS find that after a good clean out, The roaches don't breed to well for a month or two afterwards. 
One last thing, Keep them in the dark. For me, They always breed better in the dark. 

Daz


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## Paul112 (Apr 6, 2007)

If you're willing to pay for the postage, I don't mind sending you some of my larger nymphs to bulk the colony out. It might help to get breeding started.

Best,
Paul


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

I have been breeding dubias for around 10 years. It is definately not a good idea to constantly move around egg crates, and cause any unnecessary stress to the roaches. 

However I cannot understand anybody who says only feed them once a week, as any more disturbance will stop them breeding. Simply putting in fresh food once a day does not cause stress or stop them breeding. I have one huge colony that has around 15 kilos of dubia in it. They need feeding at least once a day ! I make sure they have fresh nutritious food everyday, and they are breeding like crazy. I do not understand how they are supposed to breed well on bits of dried up potato put into the cage several days earlier. I keep them at around 29-30c. Do not go much above these temps. Too much heat, and they will stop breeding. 

Do not put heat mats inside the cage, it is a fire risk (i have seen cables chewed by roaches). 

The females once adult take around two months to become sexually mature. This might explain why they are no babies so far. Be patient and they will breed. But do give them fresh 'wet' food every couple of days.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2013)

Use a 50/50 mix of oats or bran mixed with cat food with a protein content of about 30% (from experience, food for younger cats is higher in protein) all blended together. To that you'll want to add a hefty ammount of calcium (I use a relatively heaped tablespoon if I'm making enough to fill an ice cream full) and a decent scoop (level teaspoon for me) of a good vitamin powder. Some like to put sugar in theres as it makes the food sweeter so its eaten a little more, and production goes up. I personally don't bother as they usually get a scoop or two of sweetened, flavoured whey protein in their mix.

Try feedin them that, they need high protein and regular moisture for optimum breeding.

PS - Yep wet food is essential, I've noticed when I've neglected a colony for 2 weeks (I know, I know, I shouldn't) I've come back to obvious cannibalism of the young because the tub is usually crawling with them.


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## amazing_gecko (Sep 3, 2009)

> On my setup I use a long narrow heatmat which wraps around the inside of the RUB and gives a nicely distributed 28C/82F heat around the crates (vertical) and my colony thrives. Keeping the temp below 30C/86F discourages mould growth too. I've taped the mat in place so that very little bare mat is exposed. Occasionally, an adult will get a foot stuck but the heat never killed any.


Just wanted to clarify that the heat mat only wraps around half of the RUB's circumference allowing for a cooler half. As mentioned earlier, they do like to be able to move away from the heat at times.



> I have some thermometers, I could take a reading. Where should I place the probe to take a good reading? Directly on the heatmat?


Take a reading directly on the mat but also take a reading inside the crates where they all huddle. That'll give you a good idea of how it's all working out for you.



> Do not put heat mats inside the cage, it is a fire risk (i have seen cables chewed by roaches).


Well, here's where good common sense comes into play. Obviously, you don't leave a heat mat loosely flopping about in the RUB giving the roaches something to munch on because they will. The mat in my setup is fully taped up and sealed in with nothing for them to get there chops into.

Logic tells me that 1-2 mm of tape thickness is better than 4-5 mm of dense plastic which the heat has to penetrate in a RUB. Seems like a lot of wasted heat energy to me keeping it outside the RUB. You can put them inside as long as you make it safe.

If you don't think you can make it safe then don't do it.

On a side note, isn't running a heat mat on the outside of the RUB without a stat also a fire risk!? Lot's of stories testify to that. How come that hasn't been mentioned!? Go figure :bash:


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

I don't quite understand how it is possible to maintain the ideal temps without a thermostat ? 

Re protein. It is proven with research in the livefood industry, that crickets grow much better/faster with a high protein diet. But also remember locusts grow just as quick when fed on cabbage and wheat bran. Horses for courses. Crickets are omnivores and Locusts are foliavores (leaf eaters). 

I suspect there is this assumption that dubia roaches need high protein without much evidence either way. Certainly scientists have proven German roaches thrive on a diet with just 4% protein. There was a large but amateur piece of reseach done by an American recently where he fed one lot of dubia on purely a veg/fruit diet, and the others veg/fruit/cat biscuit. He says the former did much better and bred much faster. he said also that the 1st group looked to him much healthier. 

My roaches get fed vegetable protein but not animal protein, and they thrive. I use chicken mash with 16 % protein. 

It is difficult to imagine how Dubia roaches would obtain a high protein diet in the wild. They are not active predators, if they were then the your colony would hardly grow ! If you try offering them meat and some fruit, they will go for the fruit every time. They don't appear to have natural desires for animal protein.

There is also an interesting theory by Allan Rapashy (the guy behind those powdered Crested gecko diets) that high protein diets for roaches could be creating toxic roaches for our reptiles. Apparently excess dietry protein is stored in the roaches body as uric acid, and this could theoretically cause gout in reptiles. This would be something that would make your reptiles sick in the long term, and would be likely to reduce its life span. 

So is the idea that Dubia roaches need a high protein diet to thrive really true, or is it just one of those things that has just become 'common knowledge' in the hobby ?


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## vukic (Apr 9, 2010)

Yep, dubia's are a long turn investment... And they don't like being disturbed too much.. I don't disturb mine at all unless cleaning them out.. All food is placed on the top of the egg crates and the vents have egg crate placed over them to block out the light.. 

Tiger

Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

I have not disturbed my dubia colony but through the rub's plastic I could see this big black spot in the corner and when I checked it out I found most of the dubias huddled together on the cooler end. They have also seemed to have slowed. 

My suspicion is cause the heat is too much?

They only have 2 egg crates.

Jesus, I didn't know keeping a couple of roaches would turn into such a complex breeding project. I thought this was supposed to be "easy" but now I have to rethink the whole idea of food, from "scraps of food" to "protein diet"

Think I'll just get a couple of sacks of pig starter meal and give them that mixed with the oats along with my continuation of vegetable scraps. I am using the veggies as a source of water so it's not meant to be highly nutritiousness.



Dragon Farm said:


> Do not put heat mats inside the cage, it is a fire risk (i have seen cables chewed by roaches).


This is why I found it odd when one of you guys suggested I should put the heat mat inside. Not only that but heat mats get extremely hot, it would fry most of them. This is why I placed mine under the RUB and did not understand why I would want to put it on inside.


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Paul112 said:


> If you're willing to pay for the postage, I don't mind sending you some of my larger nymphs to bulk the colony out. It might help to get breeding started.
> 
> Best,
> Paul


I would welcome that so much!  

Could you pm me a quote of the shipping please? I'd be more than happy too


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## amazing_gecko (Sep 3, 2009)

> I have not disturbed my dubia colony but through the rub's plastic I could see this big black spot in the corner and when I checked it out I found most of the dubias huddled together on the cooler end. They have also seemed to have slowed.
> 
> My suspicion is cause the heat is too much?


I just want to ask if you're able to see through the plastic does that mean its a clear plastic? If so then you're making it even harder for yourself as roaches like complete darkness. This will also slow down your breeding success. Dark coloured RUBs are best. Otherwise cover the one you have so no light penetrates. I bought a clear one then spray painted it black, works a treat.

I'd agree, sounds like they're getting too hot - thermostat, thermostat, thermostat :whistling2:



> Jesus, I didn't know keeping a couple of roaches would turn into such a complex breeding project. I thought this was supposed to be "easy" but now I have to rethink the whole idea of food, from "scraps of food" to "protein diet"


Easier, maybe... easy, no. Breeding any live food requires time, patience and a willingness to experiment. As with keeping reptiles, it's more of an art than a science. That's why, as you've found in this thread, everyone does it slightly differently and will say that they've had good success with it.



> This is why I found it odd when one of you guys suggested I should put the heat mat inside. Not only that but heat mats get extremely hot, it would fry most of them. This is why I placed mine under the RUB and did not understand why I would want to put it on inside.


The reason I suggested putting it inside was because your existing setup isn't working! If you follow the suggestions given then it really works well. My colony has been thriving with the heat mat inside sealed up as explained above for a few years now without any issues (no fried roaches!) and I'm not the only one who does it but you can't do it without a thermostat. Frankly, you should have one any way whether it's inside or outside. I'm just trying to help mate. It seems clear that your underlying problem is temperature related and as DF said you can't get the right constant temp without one.

Good luck!

James


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

amazing_gecko said:


> I just want to ask if you're able to see through the plastic does that mean its a clear plastic? If so then you're making it even harder for yourself as roaches like complete darkness. This will also slow down your breeding success. Dark coloured RUBs are best. Otherwise cover the one you have so no light penetrates. I bought a clear one then spray painted it black, works a treat.
> 
> I'd agree, sounds like they're getting too hot - thermostat, thermostat, thermostat :whistling2:
> 
> ...


The plastic isn't totally clear, faded and blurry clear, I am not sure if this classifies as "clear". I have had it covered for a while, from the top as that's where the mesh is, but I'm assuming the sides need to be covered too?

Does noise disturb them as well? I don't have anywhere else to put it, my apartment isn't that big and my room is the darkest there is.

Next pay cheque I'll invest in a thermostat although I believe it's a bit pointless since the roaches are feeling very hot. I'll change the bins as well to a dark colored one.

or you know, feed off all the roaches and find the lizards a new home.

Whichever comes first.


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## vukic (Apr 9, 2010)

Pyrite said:


> The plastic isn't totally clear, faded and blurry clear, I am not sure if this classifies as "clear". I have had it covered for a while, from the top as that's where the mesh is, but I'm assuming the sides need to be covered too?
> 
> Does noise disturb them as well? I don't have anywhere else to put it, my apartment isn't that big and my room is the darkest there is.
> 
> ...


Can you post some pics of your setup... A thermostat turns the heat mat off once it reaches the set temp.. That way your mat isn't constantly running and potentially over heating.. 

Tiger

Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

vukic said:


> Can you post some pics of your setup... A thermostat turns the heat mat off once it reaches the set temp.. That way your mat isn't constantly running and potentially over heating..
> 
> Tiger
> 
> Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2


I'm visiting my parents this weekend. I'll take a picture as soon as I get back


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Hi guys just a quick question.

I am making a big batch of roach chow. So far I have mixed in some standard rabbit pellets, quaker oats and Pedigree Dog food.

I think this should solve the nutrition for sure. I am planning on giving them this mix along with fruits and veg for hydration.

How fine does the dog food need to be ? Is it okay if I have some chunky bits? Would the roaches be able to pick these off?


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## tropicaljoey (Feb 27, 2013)

READ, i bought 50 dubia roaches and some nymphs wiht it as well, that was about 1 month ago and i didnt see any breeding going on at all or any babies, i fed them salad such as lettuce,cabbage,rocket and carrot and i fed them bug grub which i get off ebay, i checked them everyday by lifting up the egg crates and moving the dubias around to check if there are any babies and there wern't any and i kept seeing dropped egg sacks in the tank which the dubias would then eat, i kept reading that you shouldn't keep disturbing them because it causes stress so i stopped looking at them and checking them for 1 week, when i put the food in i did it gently and quietly so i don't make them jump or disturb them, i lifted up the tub and looked through the clear bottom and there must of been aroung 50 or 60 babies in there running around that weren't there before and i wrap a towel around the tub now which i didn't used to do, this just shows that the more u check on the dubias and the more u disturb them and the more light they have stops them from breeding and having babies, like i said i have only had these for a month or so and there are already babies in the tank now


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## vukic (Apr 9, 2010)

Pyrite said:


> Hi guys just a quick question.
> 
> I am making a big batch of roach chow. So far I have mixed in some standard rabbit pellets, quaker oats and Pedigree Dog food.
> 
> ...


I sieve mine so it's like flour... 

Tiger

Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

tropicaljoey said:


> READ, i bought 50 dubia roaches and some nymphs wiht it as well, that was about 1 month ago and i didnt see any breeding going on at all or any babies, i fed them salad such as lettuce,cabbage,rocket and carrot and i fed them bug grub which i get off ebay, i checked them everyday by lifting up the egg crates and moving the dubias around to check if there are any babies and there wern't any and i kept seeing dropped egg sacks in the tank which the dubias would then eat, i kept reading that you shouldn't keep disturbing them because it causes stress so i stopped looking at them and checking them for 1 week, when i put the food in i did it gently and quietly so i don't make them jump or disturb them, i lifted up the tub and looked through the clear bottom and there must of been aroung 50 or 60 babies in there running around that weren't there before and i wrap a towel around the tub now which i didn't used to do, this just shows that the more u check on the dubias and the more u disturb them and the more light they have stops them from breeding and having babies, like i said i have only had these for a month or so and there are already babies in the tank now


I started to find dropped egg sacks this morning so I am getting close :lol: but still far away.

This week I am re-doing the entire setup, I do believe like most people over here have said that the enclosure is a little big so it could be why they are not breeding as they like to feel cramped. 

So I am picking a new smaller black RUB today. I started to make my own roach chow as well. I do not think I need to use the heat mat as of now. Normal temperatures for the summer have started to reach 35C-36C which I believe is good temperatures for them to breed.

My pay cheque comes in a week's time and I'll be investing in some thermostats. Any kind you guys can recommend which isn't too expensive?

Hopefully this whole entire re-setup will solve my problem.


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## tropicaljoey (Feb 27, 2013)

Pyrite said:


> I started to find dropped egg sacks this morning so I am getting close :lol: but still far away.
> 
> This week I am re-doing the entire setup, I do believe like most people over here have said that the enclosure is a little big so it could be why they are not breeding as they like to feel cramped.
> 
> ...


ye as soon as you start to find dropped egg sacks then you know that they are breeding  i keep mine in a pretty big tub but i think i'm best getting a smaller one like you so they might breed more, i have a heatmat as the temperatures are about 20c in the room they are in but i don't use a thermostat so i don't really know the prices of them, im buying some more dubias soon (mediums) to boost my colony up a bit so the adults might breed more


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## sue59 (Oct 31, 2010)

If you aren't supposed to disturb them too much how do all of you that have yours breeding well remove the roaches you want to use as feeders?


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## zzxxy (Aug 28, 2011)

sue59 said:


> If you aren't supposed to disturb them too much how do all of you that have yours breeding well remove the roaches you want to use as feeders?


I pick mine off of the tops of the egg crates or, out of the food bowls when they are eating!


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Pyrite said:


> I started to find dropped egg sacks this morning so I am getting close :lol: but still far away.
> 
> This week I am re-doing the entire setup, I do believe like most people over here have said that the enclosure is a little big so it could be why they are not breeding as they like to feel cramped.
> 
> ...


36 deg c outdoors here today too. But I hope your roaches are not that hot. They will be stressed at those temps (dropped egg pod often a sign of stress).


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## sue59 (Oct 31, 2010)

zzxxy said:


> I pick mine off of the tops of the egg crates or, out of the food bowls when they are eating!


:lol2: I would be there all day as I have 18 cresties and need 50- 60 medium roaches twice a week . What I try to do is remove as many at one go and put them in a different rub but my main breeders seem to have slowed down breeding over the past few months even though nothing has changed, food the same, cat food, veg, etc and the temps are the same around 24c. I am having to buy in some which is very expensive. I have removed quite a few males as they were out numbering the females.... well not quite but there was a lot . I have tried to get about one male to 8-10 females, it is a bit of guess work as I didn't actually count them. I am at a loss to understand why?


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Dragon Farm said:


> 36 deg c outdoors here today too. But I hope your roaches are not that hot. They will be stressed at those temps (dropped egg pod often a sign of stress).



Don't think they are at that temp, I'm sure it's a little hotter than 90F though. Temperatures have started to drop now, it's about 32C outside.

Haven't disturbed my roaches in a bit. I'm assuming I can open the tub every now and again to put in food right?


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## Spreebok (Jul 4, 2012)

Pyrite said:


> Don't think they are at that temp, I'm sure it's a little hotter than 90F though. Temperatures have started to drop now, it's about 32C outside.
> 
> Haven't disturbed my roaches in a bit. I'm assuming I can open the tub every now and again to put in food right?


Of course, it ain't gonna get in there otherwise 

Out of curiosity, what is your male to female ratio? : victory:


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Spreebok said:


> Of course, it ain't gonna get in there otherwise
> 
> Out of curiosity, what is your male to female ratio? : victory:


I don't know it comes out as a ration but I have 40 female and 10 male adults and about 20 female nymps, so 60females in total ad 10 males


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## Spreebok (Jul 4, 2012)

Pyrite said:


> I don't know it comes out as a ration but I have 40 female and 10 male adults and about 20 female nymps, so 60females in total ad 10 males


Sounds good! I keep mine lower, but that's because the males are what I feed the beardie haha


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Spreebok said:


> Sounds good! I keep mine lower, but that's because the males are what I feed the beardie haha


That's basically what the plan was with mine if only they bred. 

Was really hoping to open a roach farm over here so that I could knock down the market price, that might sound impossible but over here it's very possible considering we're a small country and there are so many little suppliers.

50cents for a roach is a total theft.:whip:


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Success! I went to check in on my dubia's today to refill their roach chow and I found like 4-6 babies next to a dropped sack.

It's not much but at least something worked out.. a little


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## Spreebok (Jul 4, 2012)

Pyrite said:


> Success! I went to check in on my dubia's today to refill their roach chow and I found like 4-6 babies next to a dropped sack.
> 
> It's not much but at least something worked out.. a little


So glad to hear you've got some babies at last! Once they get going they don't stop, so it's upwards from here! Just wait till you catch one giving birth, it's horribly fascinating haha!


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Spreebok said:


> So glad to hear you've got some babies at last! Once they get going they don't stop, so it's upwards from here! Just wait till you catch one giving birth, it's horribly fascinating haha!


Hah! I sure hope so! :2thumb: Never have I ever imagined myself to be so fascinated and interested in roaches before haha

I am really happy  I sure hope the other females are incubating and soon follow suite


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Hey guys I just thought I'd keep you guys up to date on how my roach is going since the last time I posted!

Spreebok especially. You were right man! Once the female gave birth the following week I got a thousand babies all over the place so yeah they were incubating :2thumb::2thumb:

I managed to catch a couple of he babies shedding and they are really taking a liking to the new roach chow I made! I feel a lot better as I know that the roaches are going to be a healthy and nutrition-ed food source and product.

I don't bother them as often as I used to before and things have really taken a turn up wind 

Today I saw my first female dubia cloaca all out and it was an amazing site for some strange reason. A sure upwards from here as they continue to breed.

Never have I thought I would find such joy in farming reptile food! :2thumb:

*In this one you can see the female I have captured!*




*This is the amount of roaches and show quite a few younglings!*




*In this one, next to the male roach on the far right, you can see one of newly shed baby roaches, growing bit by bit*


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## SublimeSparo (May 1, 2013)

really glad you've had some success mate  
Hope it means you can keep your beardie


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

If you want to breed reptiles, here is a place you can get some help/advice. 

Having a thriving dubia colony is a really good place to start. They appear to be doing very well.


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Dragon Farm said:


> If you want to breed reptiles, here is a place you can get some help/advice.
> 
> Having a thriving dubia colony is a really good place to start. They appear to be doing very well.


I am breeding my first corn snakes this year :2thumb: Hopefully it will go smooth cause I would really like to breed boas next season



SublimeSparo said:


> really glad you've had some success mate
> Hope it means you can keep your beardie


Thank you so much! Yes I still have my little beardie thank god, he's like a best friend to me :lol2:


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## SublimeSparo (May 1, 2013)

could it be time to change your sig, you seem to have the knack for breeding roaches, which is definately a positive 
life can be a shitter mate, but theres always little things to make ya smile  you just have to try bl**dy hard sometimes


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

SublimeSparo said:


> could it be time to change your sig, you seem to have the knack for breeding roaches, which is definately a positive
> life can be a shitter mate, but theres always little things to make ya smile  you just have to try bl**dy hard sometimes


Yeah I probably should just been going through a rough time. Things falling through you know? 

I should be looking forward to things. Breeding corns for the first time this season hopefully that will be successful


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Glad to hear you have some babies. Usually its just a matter of time. Its tough to wait, but as long as theyre warm, humid and fed, they pretty much breed every time. 

I do have a few comments. First, I would not recommend to anyone that they use dog or cat food for feeder insects. Roaches are especially problematic, as was mentioned earlier (they store excess protein as uric acid), but no insect feeder needs the kind of protein found in cat food or even dog food. Roaches require around 12-15% protein in their diet and are adapted to poor protein environments. Either way, cat and dog foods are full of phosphorous, fat and preservatives. Feeding that to your feeder prey is essentially the same thing as feeding it to your reptile. Thankfully people do not recommend that anymore at least. 

Also, in answer to the question of why cramped roaches breed more easily, its a two part thing. One, roaches sort of terraform with their living areas. The excrement builds up and two things happen. One, it helps maintain the humidity of their home, which helps them with molting and other things. Two, the little babies eat the excrement of the adults. So thats why they appear to breed better when cramped, and why after you clean out their tubs they seem to breed less quickly.


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

jarich said:


> Glad to hear you have some babies. Usually its just a matter of time. Its tough to wait, but as long as theyre warm, humid and fed, they pretty much breed every time.
> 
> I do have a few comments. First, I would not recommend to anyone that they use dog or cat food for feeder insects. Roaches are especially problematic, as was mentioned earlier (they store excess protein as uric acid), but no insect feeder needs the kind of protein found in cat food or even dog food. Roaches require around 12-15% protein in their diet and are adapted to poor protein environments. Either way, cat and dog foods are full of phosphorous, fat and preservatives. Feeding that to your feeder prey is essentially the same thing as feeding it to your reptile. Thankfully people do not recommend that anymore at least.
> 
> Also, in answer to the question of why cramped roaches breed more easily, its a two part thing. One, roaches sort of terraform with their living areas. The excrement builds up and two things happen. One, it helps maintain the humidity of their home, which helps them with molting and other things. Two, the little babies eat the excrement of the adults. So thats why they appear to breed better when cramped, and why after you clean out their tubs they seem to breed less quickly.


So what would you suggest as an alternative to feeding protein to your insects? What would you use as a protein induced food source that's good for the insect? :hmm:


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## efilbean (Jun 28, 2013)

amazing_gecko said:


> The mat in my setup is fully taped up and sealed in with nothing for them to get there chops into.
> 
> Logic tells me that 1-2 mm of tape thickness is better than 4-5 mm of dense plastic which the heat has to penetrate in a RUB. Seems like a lot of wasted heat energy to me keeping it outside the RUB. You can put them inside as long as you make safe:


Do you mean you have covered the whole surface of the heat mat with tape or just around the edges? What tape have you used?
I like the idea of having my heat strip inside the tub so as not to waste heat but want to make sure I'm being safe!


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Pyrite said:


> So what would you suggest as an alternative to feeding protein to your insects? What would you use as a protein induced food source that's good for the insect? :hmm:


They get the overwhelming majority of their protein from plant sources, and are one of the few creatures in the world that can synthesize amino acids/proteins when they need them. Thats why when there is excess protein in their diet they store it in the form of uric acid. When there is no protein they then use this uric acid to create proteins. 

If you want to use an easy premixed source, then chicken feed or rodent blocks are a better substitute than dog or cat foods. Both chicken and rodent feed have about 15% protein and are plant based. Once a month I add in some shrimp meal just to make sure they are getting any extra protein they might need. Its probably not necessary, but it also has extra calcium and PUFAs which are good for reptiles.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Most people don't realise that there is protein in plants, and in cereals. 

I use chicken food. You can buy it in a powdered form (called mash) and I have been using this for around 8 years (or more) with great success.

EDIT this can't be right thats what Jarich recommended !!


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## efilbean (Jun 28, 2013)

I'll be using layers pellets once I get my colony. I'll be whizzing it up with some calcium and wondered if there's anything else you recommend in terms of dry food for Dubia.

I hope you don't mind my hijacking your thread, Pyrite.
I'm so glad to read about your breeding success!


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

jarich said:


> They get the overwhelming majority of their protein from plant sources, and are one of the few creatures in the world that can synthesize amino acids/proteins when they need them. Thats why when there is excess protein in their diet they store it in the form of uric acid. When there is no protein they then use this uric acid to create proteins.
> 
> If you want to use an easy premixed source, then chicken feed or rodent blocks are a better substitute than dog or cat foods. Both chicken and rodent feed have about 15% protein and are plant based. Once a month I add in some shrimp meal just to make sure they are getting any extra protein they might need. Its probably not necessary, but it also has extra calcium and PUFAs which are good for reptiles.


I feed my roaches a mix of crumbled dog food with quaker oats as that's what the majority of people have suggested. I'll switch to some pullet mash though as its beginning to sound like a better idea, plus they are cheap to buy.

Most of the plant matter I feed is Lettuce, Cabbage and Cucumber but I use these as a primary water source. It's cheaper and lasts longer than water gels and crystals.



efilbean said:


> I'll be using layers pellets once I get my colony. I'll be whizzing it up with some calcium and wondered if there's anything else you recommend in terms of dry food for Dubia.
> 
> I hope you don't mind my hijacking your thread, Pyrite.
> I'm so glad to read about your breeding success!


Hah! Not at all, it's important to get a variety of answers and experiences from different sources. This will ensure a good and healthy way to raise good nutritional roaches for reptiles! ^^


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

The roaches are unlikely to eat any calcium powder, and I have read that high calcium diets are not good for insects. Because they do not have a skeleton, they are not designed for alot of calcium in the diet, and I have read it can affect their development. Dusting the insects before they are fed to the lizards is a very effective way and sorting the problem out. 

Actually as it happens chicken food does already have a lot of calcium in it (usually very fine crushed oyster shell), you can it see it leftover after a tray of chicken food is eaten by the roaches.


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Dragon Farm said:


> The roaches are unlikely to eat any calcium powder, and I have read that high calcium diets are not good for insects. Because they do not have a skeleton, they are not designed for alot of calcium in the diet, and I have read it can affect their development. Dusting the insects before they are fed to the lizards is a very effective way and sorting the problem out.
> 
> Actually as it happens chicken food does already have a lot of calcium in it (usually very fine crushed oyster shell), you can it see it leftover after a tray of chicken food is eaten by the roaches.


You reckon I should continue with my roach chow? It's made of 50% dry dog food and 50% quaker oats.

Every time I feed it to them I always end up finding the tray completely empty, they really love that stuff.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

As I have already said, I agree with Jarich on the use of dog/catfoods for roaches (see above)

When you say they love the stuff, what alternative do they have ? Is is that or starvation ?

Many others (the majority of roach breeders) will tell you we are wrong. Its up to you.


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Dragon Farm said:


> As I have already said, I agree with Jarich on the use of dog/catfoods for roaches (see above)
> 
> When you say they love the stuff, what alternative do they have ? Is is that or starvation ?
> 
> Many others (the majority of roach breeders) will tell you we are wrong. Its up to you.


Don't worry mate I am not passing off anything as complete bs. I see your point clearly. Some one has also suggested some chicken mash and rabbit pellets. Don't these pose the same problem?

They are going to the roaches and the roaches to the lizard.

Yeah okay they are plant based but aren't they also over loaded with protein and calcium and will still cause the roaches to produce high amounts of uric acids?

I am only asking so I can replace the dog food/oat chow and give them something a little more healthy. 

I guess I could use broccoli and celery along with cucumber and lettuce? The first two have high protein and the latter can act as mainly as a water source.


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## SublimeSparo (May 1, 2013)

i reckon an experiment is at hand... put a small amount of roaches in a separate tub with like 4 or 5 bowls of diff mixes ie dog mix and oats, dog mix on its own, chicken pelllets on their own chicken pellets and oats etc etc weigh out the amount of each mix into each bowl then leave em at it for 24 hours, then re weigh your bowls and find out what they munched the most 

actually do it all with single food in each bowl not mixes.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

SublimeSparo said:


> i reckon an experiment is at hand... put a small amount of roaches in a separate tub with like 4 or 5 bowls of diff mixes ie dog mix and oats, dog mix on its own, chicken pelllets on their own chicken pellets and oats etc etc weigh out the amount of each mix into each bowl then leave em at it for 24 hours, then re weigh your bowls and find out what they munched the most
> 
> actually do it all with single food in each bowl not mixes.


Not a bad idea, it would be interesting to know. I have dogs too. I will powder some of their dry food, and see which they choose to eat. 

But its worth remembering that if you give a child the choice of salad or chocolate.... it doesn't always choose the healthiest thing. Humans love the taste of fatty, sugary, salty food, because very resently in our evolution we benefited from these things, when they were in short supply.


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## SublimeSparo (May 1, 2013)

i know its not fully scientific, but i'm doubting our friend here has the lab equipment to conduct post mortems on cockroaches and test for uric acid (damn i know i wish i did!) but its a start


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Pyrite said:


> Don't worry mate I am not passing off anything as complete bs. I see your point clearly. Some one has also suggested some chicken mash and rabbit pellets. Don't these pose the same problem?
> 
> They are going to the roaches and the roaches to the lizard.
> 
> ...


Chicken and rabbit pellets do contain much less protein than dog foods. I try to use around half dry, to half 'wet' foods for my dubia roaches. So the overall protein levels they eat are much less because the veggies are much lower in protein than chicken food. What makes feeding really high protein foods worse in my view, is when you use water gel crystals and cut out alot of the veggies. I hear people on this forum talking about chucking in some veg once a week, whereas mine get fresh food every day. 

Calcium levels isn't an issue, as I said already, most of the calcium in the chicken food is in the form of small grit that they leave behind. 

I believe in trying to eliminate the cereals all together from the insect stomachs, by always keeping a small seperate group of roaches that are just fed veggies/fruits for a few days before they are fed to the lizards. I don't know how long it takes for roach uric levels to drop, but a few days might help, and I would rather my lizards eat carrots than cereals. 

One issue to consider is why are roaches often so easy to culture compared to other insects ? One of the reasons is that they live together amicably, babies with mums and dads, and cannibalism is extremely low or non existant when plenty of alternative food is offered. This tells you something about roaches, compared to many crickets for example, they are designed I think for low protein plant based diets, whereas Black and quiet crickets especially seem to crave higher protein levels and are frequently cannibalistic. 

Re what veggies to use, I use alot of carrots. But it varies season to season. Now water melons are very cheap. The feeder tub get more variation. I have one large cage that will consume around 1 kilo of carrots a day, plus a large margarine tub scoop of chicken mash a day. They love chopped carrots !


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## vukic (Apr 9, 2010)

So... Has anyone start the experiment??? 

Tiger

Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

SublimeSparo said:


> i reckon an experiment is at hand... put a small amount of roaches in a separate tub with like 4 or 5 bowls of diff mixes ie dog mix and oats, dog mix on its own, chicken pelllets on their own chicken pellets and oats etc etc weigh out the amount of each mix into each bowl then leave em at it for 24 hours, then re weigh your bowls and find out what they munched the most
> 
> actually do it all with single food in each bowl not mixes.


Oh my god Sublime that's a good experiment to conduct! :lol2:

I'll try and put this to the test the following week as of now I am visiting my parents.

I'll put four can lids with 4 feed stuffs. Oats, Grinded dog food, Chicken Mesh and pig starter (It's also a very high protein mash, used very often over here when breeding rats)

I can also burrow a digital scale from work and see which choice of food they prefer over 24hours

@DragonFarm

My roaches get fresh fruit and veggie everyday as well. I was never really keen on water gel crystals, to me it just seemed like another business scheme trying to convince me that I "need" them when really I do not. The majority over here are farmers and sell a lot of vegetables. Some of them dispose of their veggies if they do not sell after a day because it is no longer customer presentable and that's when I come in as I am more than happy to make use of that 



> One issue to consider is why are roaches often so easy to culture compared to other insects ? One of the reasons is that they live together amicably, babies with mums and dads, and cannibalism is extremely low or non existant when plenty of alternative food is offered. This tells you something about roaches, compared to many crickets for example, they are designed I think for low protein plant based diets, whereas Black and quiet crickets especially seem to crave higher protein levels and are frequently cannibalistic.


That is some really nice observation, I never really thought of that. Very interesting to know. I always thought that it was because of their "Shell to Meat" ratio that made them so widely popular. I haven't heard of a better food source than roaches thus far.

I often imagine on how these type of roaches live in the wild. Often times I imagine that the majority of their diet is vegetable matter, maybe the whole cereal diet was completely unnecessarily from the beginning.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Some 'cockroaches' are carnivores.... just we know them better as Praying mantis. Have a look at the head, and compare that with a roach. They are actually quite closely related. 

I read about this really interesting experiment somebody (a hobbyist) did recently in the US. 

He took some time and split his dubia colonies in half, and fed one group just veg/fruit, and the other had a higher protein dry source as well as the veg/fruit. He said the first group bred alot better i.e. produced more young, and he said he thought they actually looked healthier. 

Maybe one day I will have time to try the same experiment.


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## vukic (Apr 9, 2010)

Dragon Farm said:


> Some 'cockroaches' are carnivores.... just we know them better as Praying mantis. Have a look at the head, and compare that with a roach. They are actually quite closely related.
> 
> I read about this really interesting experiment somebody (a hobbyist) did recently in the US.
> 
> ...


That's also another good idea.. Though it would take longer to see the results...

Tiger

Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

I have not had the time to put the experiment into practice on a varied scale but I did do a small test on both cereal and vegetable/fruit

I put a small milk carton cut in half and with a small slit in the bottom to act as easy access full of vegetable matter such as lettuce, broccoli, carrots,spinach, apples, grape..etc and a small jar lid filled to the top with my mix of dry food.

What they ate readily was Lettuce (my main source of water) and carrots.

The other variety I gave them they enjoyed munching on but slowly which gave time for the fruit and veg to rot.

In a week I had to refill the jar lid twice before I actually had to refill the vegetable/fruit mix.

Some one before hand had mentioned if they preferred it because there was no other option. Well I gave them two and they still preferred the dry food.

However I do not feed them that often on dry food (only on this small experiment), twice a month or less, as I am still hesitant on the over load of protein. I much prefer to feed them vegetable matter.

Also my dubias have gave a lot of birth, I have two sides of one egg carton full of baby roaches some in various sizes. It's been about 2 months and it doesn't look like they are growing very fast.

I've had this colony for 7months now. It's a really slow process.

How long till the roaches actually get to a good nymph size till I can start feeding off the colony?

I took temperature readings with a *DIGITAL* thermometer/hydrometer combo and it reads

Temp 89.7F
Humidity fluctuates between 70% - 79%

Right now I am going to attach a slightly larger heat mat to the side of the viv as I am worried the progress has slowed due to lack of heat.

What do you guys suggest? Are the conditions good?


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Okay after changing the heat mat the temperature now reads

Temp - 92.3F
humidity - 78%


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

At that temperature I think they start to get stressed. 

I am running an experiment now re diet, and should have the results later today. 

I have feed my largest dubia group a tray divided into three sections, with 100g of each of the following. Chicken mash, cheap dog biscuits, expensive dog biscuits with a higher protein content. The roaches only had carrots yesterday. Which one will they prefer ?

You will find out later...


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Dragon Farm said:


> At that temperature I think they start to get stressed.
> 
> I am running an experiment now re diet, and should have the results later today.
> 
> ...


I believe it was you who said that you feed them carrots and that they love it and I have been including that into my veg/fruit diet. I always make sure they have carrots and they absolutely love them.

I have read other posts about Chicken Mash, I believe that poster called Imginy or something like that had made a care guide for dubias and fed that along with veg.

As I have said cereal and other mash is rare thing for me to give them and I am thinking of cutting the whole thing off as I am slowly being convinced that it's totally un-necessary 

Looking forward to your results! :2thumb:


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## imginy (Jun 14, 2009)

Pyrite said:


> I have read other posts about Chicken Mash, I believe that poster called Imginy or something like that had made a care guide for dubias and fed that along with veg.


I learned how to do mine from Dragon Farm : victory:

The wet chicken mash really helps grow the colony, also it's really cheap and doesn't smell.


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

imginy said:


> I learned how to do mine from Dragon Farm : victory:
> 
> The wet chicken mash really helps grow the colony, also it's really cheap and doesn't smell.


Oh really? I didn't know my bad :flrt:

I'll give that a try, there is a supplier down the road from me and see how that goes. So you've had no problems with uric sacs?


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Dragon Farm said:


> At that temperature I think they start to get stressed.
> 
> I am running an experiment now re diet, and should have the results later today.
> 
> ...


Ok bad news. I went out this afternoon, and when i came back 99% of the dry food was gone (300g). I will do the same again tomorrow, and try to check it before it was all gone. I didn't have a means to crush up the biscuits so all three options were presoaked, and therefore very easy for the roaches to eat. When i checked a couple of times after putting the food in, the chicken mash was very clearly the favourite, and they were clearly eating that twice as fast as the other two 'meaty options. I would say after two hours there was around 50g of the chicken mash left and about 75g each of the other two types. 

I will try and get photos to show this tomorrow. iIt was a very clear difference. It backs up my idea that they are really meant to be vegetarian not meat eaters.


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Dragon Farm said:


> Ok bad news. I went out this afternoon, and when i came back 99% of the dry food was gone (300g). I will do the same again tomorrow, and try to check it before it was all gone. I didn't have a means to crush up the biscuits so all three options were presoaked, and therefore very easy for the roaches to eat. When i checked a couple of times after putting the food in, the chicken mash was very clearly the favourite, and they were clearly eating that twice as fast as the other two 'meaty options. I would say after two hours there was around 50g of the chicken mash left and about 75g each of the other two types.
> 
> I will try and get photos to show this tomorrow. iIt was a very clear difference. It backs up my idea that they are really meant to be vegetarian not meat eaters.


I fail to understand how this is bad news. This is the expected result you were hoping for is it not? It's great news infact! :2thumb: Try and do this 3-4 times and see what happens to the chicken mash and if it remains the favorite then you would have proved that cereals and dog/cat dry food are un-necessary 

What I usually do to crush up the biscuits is place the dog food in multiple freezer bags and grind/bash with a hammer till it's a very fine powder.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Only bad news, because I reckon if I had been there at the right time, I could have photographed the tray with no chicken mash left, but with plenty of dog food still unconsumed. There is an american guy who did experiemnts, and reckoned they did better with just veg/fruit and no other foods. They certainly do well without a high protein source like dog/cat foods. Normally mine would never get animal proteins. 

It is interesting that they seemed to prefer the lower protein meat free diet in yesterdays experiment. More later today.


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

hey guys, just read the last page of this thread. I keep dubia's but not a colony, theres a few adults that are left to it as theyre too big to feed so im hoping theyll eventually breed but im not expecting it to be self sustainable. My question is ive been looking for a nice easy cheap option to feed them. Currently they're getting various veg and oranges, thats about it. What would you recommend and what is this chicken mash stuff you speak of?

PS. Mark, when are you next popping over to the UK with your livestock?


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Hi Tom 

chicken mash is the type of food that is used to feed egg laying chickens (as opposed to chicks or broiler chickens). Its available as pellets or in a powdered form. I am not sure exactly on the content in the UK but normally it is a mix of powdered cereals with added soya flour. Chickens get enough nutrition out it to lay an egg a day. Chickens are very popular pets, so mash should be very easy to find. It is extremely cheap too. 

If you have very few roaches, you can of course use carrot peelings, apple cores, and cooked left over veggies (green beans and that sort of thing). But anything uneaten should be removed in 48 hours, sooner if it is cooked. 

My personal life is in a bit of turmoil at the moment, so I am not sure when I will be in the Uk next. In Decemeber at the very latest, maybe in October. I don't have a TNT account, so i don't know how I could get lizards to Wales.


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

Dragon Farm said:


> Hi Tom
> 
> chicken mash is the type of food that is used to feed egg laying chickens (as opposed to chicks or broiler chickens). Its available as pellets or in a powdered form. I am not sure exactly on the content in the UK but normally it is a mix of powdered cereals with added soya flour. Chickens get enough nutrition out it to lay an egg a day. Chickens are very popular pets, so mash should be very easy to find. It is extremely cheap too.
> 
> ...


Cheers pal, I know exactly what you're talking of now and know where I can get some. Not to worry mate, just checking every possible avenue. I'll contact you privately if I want to talk further. : victory:


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## Discodaz (Aug 7, 2013)

Well,i dont do anything special..i went to my local pet store and bought a 5 kg bag of chicken feed..they have that,fresh oranges ( that i cant keep up with,they love em) and raw veg and salad leaves..and a tub of water crystals.

I got my small colony of about 300 aproximately 5 weeks ago..

Now it may be my imagination as ive never seen evidence of breeding,but im damn sure im seeing more and more babies daily

I litterally put fresh food in daily about tea time and leave them alone..

Seems to be working

I have no desire to sit and count them,besides i do feed off them occasionally so it would be a pain to work out.

If it helps mine are in a 2 ft x 18 inch tub with sides blacked out and its sat on a heat mat that covers half the bottom of the tub.

Daz


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

tomcannon said:


> hey guys, just read the last page of this thread. I keep dubia's but not a colony, theres a few adults that are left to it as theyre too big to feed so im hoping theyll eventually breed but im not expecting it to be self sustainable. My question is ive been looking for a nice easy cheap option to feed them. Currently they're getting various veg and oranges, thats about it. What would you recommend and what is this chicken mash stuff you speak of?
> 
> PS. Mark, when are you next popping over to the UK with your livestock?


It's those pellets that are fed to adult free range chickens. From what I understood you grab a bag of that stuff, pour a little bit of it on a lid and mix it with water and you kill two birds with one stone. Nutrition and Hydration.

Right now we're just discussing on what the best nutrition is and whether or not cereals and biscuits are completely un-necessary when it comes to protein intake which is beginning to look like it.

How many dubias you got tom?

I am thinking taking to the streets and collect a bunch of lobster roaches and see how they breed


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

I measured out 90grams of (LEFT TO RIGHT) chicken mash, cheap dog food and expensive dog food. All were hydrated so soft and easy to consume. The roaches were extra hungry and therefore less fussy. I think yesterday the results were alot clearer, but you can see the chicken mash is the best consumed. I think the middle cheap dog food is not as popular as the expensive one, because the roaches can access the others from two sides, but only only side for the (middle)cheap dog food. See below for before and after pics (5 hour gap).


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

Pyrite said:


> It's those pellets that are fed to adult free range chickens. From what I understood you grab a bag of that stuff, pour a little bit of it on a lid and mix it with water and you kill two birds with one stone. Nutrition and Hydration.
> 
> Right now we're just discussing on what the best nutrition is and whether or not cereals and biscuits are completely un-necessary when it comes to protein intake which is beginning to look like it.
> 
> ...


I haven't a clue to be honest, haven't counted. I had a colony but sold it off a while back. I now just have a rub on top of my locust viv and add to it now and again, if the roaches are too big I just leave them, I have a few adults now so no doubt they'll breed at some point. I'd definitely give lobsters a try if it were as easy as picking them off the streets! 



Dragon Farm said:


> I measured out 90grams of (LEFT TO RIGHT) chicken mash, cheap dog food and expensive dog food. All were hydrated so soft and easy to consume. The roaches were extra hungry and therefore less fussy. I think yesterday the results were alot clearer, but you can see the chicken mash is the best consumed. I think the middle cheap dog food is not as popular as the expensive one, because the roaches can access the others from two sides, but only only side for the (middle)cheap dog food. See below for before and after pics (5 hour gap).
> 
> [URL=http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p294/mark68_bucket/roachfood062.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> [URL=http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p294/mark68_bucket/roachfood070.jpg]image[/URL]


Looks like ill be grabbing some chicken pellets then!


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

I could be wrong, but I would be very surprized if you could find Lobster roaches in the streets in Malta. I would have thought it was more likely to be a native species, or a pest one.


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