# Co-dom



## waynehollands (Aug 29, 2006)

Please can some one help, i am just makeing the effort to learn reptile genetics and one question i have is if you breed co-dom to co-dom say a fire royal to a fire you get 50% co-dom 25% super and 25% normal roughly speaking, now if you breed two differant co-dom together say a fire with phantom what happens then do you create a differant colour by using two differant co doms. i am wanting to know what happens by crossing two differant co-doms not the result of a fire and phantom they were just examples of co-dom.

thank you wayne


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## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

25% Normal
25% visual het of the first gene (e.g. Fire)
25% visual het of the second gene (e.g. Phantom)
25% visual for both (e.g. a Phantom Fire)

Whether or not the effects "mix" depends on the trait.

You won't get any super forms though.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

waynehollands said:


> Please can some one help, i am just makeing the effort to learn reptile genetics and one question i have is if you breed co-dom to co-dom say a fire royal to a fire you get 50% co-dom 25% super and 25% normal roughly speaking, now if you breed two differant co-dom together say a fire with phantom what happens then do you create a differant colour by using two differant co doms. i am wanting to know what happens by crossing two differant co-doms not the result of a fire and phantom they were just examples of co-dom.
> 
> thank you wayne


Breeding two diiferant line of codom won't result in super form but they will combo.

Codom-A X Codom-B = .

Normal.
Codom-A.
Codom-B.
Codom-AB.

So in your example.

Fire X Phantom = .

Normal.
Fire.
Phantom.
Fire phantom.


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## oakelm (Jan 14, 2009)

Well from a fire x phantom you would get
25% Normal
25% Fire
25% Phantom
25% Fire, Phantom (Which probably has a different name, not sure if its even been done)

Not an easy example to work with but from combining 2 dom/co dom you end up with something different. Probably an easier example is a spider x pastel
25% Normal
25% Spider
25% Pastel
25% Spider, Pastel AKA Bumblebee

EDIT - They beat me to it


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## waynehollands (Aug 29, 2006)

Thank you for your quick response, so the last question is the the last 25% (bumblebee) accures because of the traits of each co-dom but depending on the traits of the co-doms i use you may get 50% of each co-dom but visual could be the same as either one of the parents or if they have some hidden traits this is where another colour comes from (bumblebee)

Have i got this right or am i going Mad

cheers wayne


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Bumblebee is just the combination of Spider and Pastel - Bumblebee is a "Spider Pastel".

You also have to know which codominant traits are allelic. For example, Mojave and Lesser are two flavours of the same gene - so a Mojave Lesser is a blue-eyed white snake and is kinda like the homozygous lesser "super" form.


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

waynehollands said:


> ... depending on the traits of the co-doms i use you may get 50% of each co-dom but visual could be the same as either one of the parents or if they have some hidden traits this is where another colour comes from (bumblebee)


It might help to keep track of the actual genes. In the fire X fire mating, each parent has only one gene pair to keep track of. In a pastel X spider mating, there are TWO pairs of genes in each snake to keep track of.

P = pastel gene
P^+ = normal gene

S = spider gene
S^+ = normal gene

A pastel royal has a pastel gene paired with a normal gene (P//P^+) and two S^+ normal genes (S^+//S^+). So the full set of genes is P//P^+ S^+//S^+.

A spider royal has two P^+ normal genes (P^+//P^+) and a spider gene paired with a normal gene (S^+//S^+). So the full set of genes is P^+//P^+ S//S^+.

We mate the two snakes.
P//P^+ S^+//S^+ (pastel) X P^+//P^+ S//S^+ (spider)

This is the equivalent of two matings -- a pastel to a normal and a normal to a spider. Pastel X normal produces 1/2 pastel and 1/2 normal. Normal X spider produces 1/2 normal and 1/2 spider. But this is happening in only one pair of snakes.

Take a silver coin and a copper coin. 
Silver heads = pastel (P//P^+)
Silver tails = normal (P^+//P^+)
Copper heads = normal (S^+//S^+)
Copper tails = spider (S//S^+)

If the coins are flipped, there are four possible outcomes:
1. silver heads, copper heads
2. silver heads, copper tails
3. silver tails, copper heads
4. silver tails, copper tails

1. silver heads, copper heads = P//P^+ S^+//S^+ = pastel
2. silver heads, copper tails = P//P^+ S//S^+ = pastel and spider = bumblebee
3. silver tails, copper heads = P^+//P^+ S//S^+ = spider
4. silver tails, copper tails = P^+//P^+ S^+//S^+ = normal

This is oakelm's result, in a slightly different order.

There are no hidden traits. It's all in how the gene pairs are combined in one snake.


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

that was easy... i got it... did everyone else??? :blowup:


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## oakelm (Jan 14, 2009)

I actually like that explaination because it takes out the actual morphs so concerntrates on the genetics. Once you get your head around it the co dom stuff is easy, it just then trying to remember the names of all the combinations.


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## excession (Apr 11, 2009)

Seems like a good place to ask - What is the super form of Pinstripe called?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

"Pinstripe".

There is no "super form" at this time; this is likely because it's a dominant trait and looks the same whether you've got a heterozygous pinstripe or a homozygous one.


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## excession (Apr 11, 2009)

Ahh I thought it was co dominant  That would explain why I was unable to find it...


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## waynehollands (Aug 29, 2006)

Thank you that makes it a lot clearer now i may be able to buy some morphs and have a little knowledge on what to do with them

cheers wayne


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

*wayne*

google... genetics-list-snake-zone.com ... most basic + combo morph genetics are on the list (its a good 1 to save in your favourites)


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## excession (Apr 11, 2009)

From looking into it the last few days I am seriously tempted to start saving to get a pastel and a spider for a little breading project 

From what I've read it seems like a good place to start with Royal morphs- and Bumble bees spiders look amazing!


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

I'm of two minds about spiders because of the head wobble. 

How Much Wobble Is Too Much In Spiders? - Ball-Pythons.net Forums

The wobble seems to be variable, from practically nothing to corkscrewing. Do your homework and buy from stock with a minimal amount.


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## Metal_face (Oct 2, 2008)

i have a bumblebee with no head wobble what so ever but on the flip side i have seen a spider that was so bad i probably would consider having it pts if it was mine.


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