# is it legal to live feed



## diox (Apr 20, 2009)

just wondered if its legal to livefeed my reptiles
i have done and never realy thought about it i know alot of people do
some1 came to buy a monitor from me i told them i had live fed it a few times and they were mortified and told me they could report me and i may get a £5000 fine and my lizards took off me:gasp:
i told them to f off :devil: and kicked them out without my monitor
havnt heard from them or any1 since this was a few week ago
does any1 know the law on this?


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## Keitarock (Apr 10, 2009)

technically it IS legal... but often frowned upon

I'll try and find the thread on it


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## Sid.lola (Jan 10, 2008)

Yes but not in public


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## Keitarock (Apr 10, 2009)

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/69279-live-feeding-laws.html


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## diox (Apr 20, 2009)

*livefeeding*

cheers il have a look mate


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

Definately legal.

Interesting where he got the £5000 fine from though!


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## furgle (Aug 1, 2008)

probably jus some tree huggin dickhead mate lol


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Depends on, if it causes suffering to a mammal, that includes if it suffers mentally, all covered in the new AWA.
Generally it's not really done, live animals can inflict some nasty wounds. It's a last resort for a reptile that won't feed.
If there was a visit from the RSPCA you'd have to prove the mammal didn't suffer, very difficult because the obvious conclusion would be that it would suffer.
cheers arthur.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Here is part of what the standing committee said,

Quote:
Most captive-bred carnivorous predators would accept meat or carcases as their diet. Some people have suggested to us that there may be occasions on which it is necessary to feed live vertebrates to predators—for example, when predatory animals refuse all alternatives. I understand that that specifically relates to the feeding of live rodents to snakes. 

Although I understand that it may on rare occasions be considered necessary to feed a live vertebrate to a predator to encourage it to eat, the Government believe that the Bill provides the necessary balance for the courts to decide whether an offence of suffering or poor welfare has been committed. The practice of feeding animals in that way is not something that the Government wish to condone, and in fact I believe that it is extremely rare. But we would not wish to offer a blanket exemption to the practice, as it could be used as a loophole to cause suffering.

The offences in the Bill are drafted in such a way that where suffering is inflicted on a live vertebrate by feeding to a predator, the court can take that circumstance into account. It could be a ''legitimate purpose'' under subsection (3) or a circumstance to which the courts would have regard in determining whether reasonable steps were taken to meet the animal's welfare needs under clause 8(1).

cheers arthur.


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## Reptiledan (Jun 15, 2008)

Tbh theres not really much chance of the RSPCA being able to prove you did it. From what ive gathered the law is more for public facility's and not so much private keepers.

Dan


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## diox (Apr 20, 2009)

*live*

im just gonna carry on with what im doing mainly frozen with the odd live treat:mf_dribble: for good measure they love it so its all legal thats fine i wont lose any sleep for a tree hugger:Na_Na_Na_Na:
as long as my monitors are ok


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

It is obviously the governments intention that it should only be done as a last resort so if there were witnesses then you might find your self in trouble. 
The other question I would ask is why would you want to live feed when dead food is available where the animal is killed humanly. With no risk to the reptile.
I suspect that there are some who gain pleasure from live feeding and that's another matter entirely.
cheers arthur.


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## Ferret1959 (Jul 16, 2008)

diox said:


> im just gonna carry on with what im doing mainly frozen with the odd live treat:mf_dribble: for good measure they love it so its all legal thats fine i wont lose any sleep for a tree hugger:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> as long as my monitors are ok


Just to point out giving a live "treat" would be classed as cruelty and causing suffering.
It isn't an absolute necessity feed live as you have mentioned.

Who is having the treat at the end of the day?

Fresh killed are just as good a treat for your animal. :2thumb: 


I'm not against live feeding as I have done it on a regular basis in the past.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

You also have to take into consideration the public perception of live feeding and the ability of people to live feed came about because the FBH put up a very reasonable argument to retain it and we assured them it was rare and a last resort. 
Should a picture start to emerge that it is common, that could create problems for reptile keepers in that Animal Rights etc will use it as ammunition for a ban and that will create problems for keepers who have animals that will only except live food.
I would also say that I am certainly not some tree hugger, whatever that means.
cheers arthur


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

diox said:


> im just gonna carry on with what im doing mainly frozen with the odd live treat:mf_dribble: for good measure they love it so its all legal thats fine i wont lose any sleep for a tree hugger:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> as long as my monitors are ok


As far as it goes, the "odd live treat" could be something like adult locusts - all three of my large lizards (one monitor, two tegus) go bonkers for the winged, flying adults.


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## Herp breeder (Jan 8, 2009)

it is classed as illegal but cannot be very easily proved so they are often overlooked. there is one exception and this is if there is no other choice then it is allowed such as if the animal is suffering or wont eat frozen food that is what i have been learning bout at sparsholt for few months now.


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

Herp breeder said:


> it is classed as illegal but cannot be very easily proved so they are often overlooked. there is one exception and this is if there is no other choice then it is allowed such as if the animal is suffering or wont eat frozen food that is what i have been learning bout at sparsholt for few months now.


it is not classed as illegal it is legal just frowned at


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

My own opinion is that if I had to I would feed live but only if I had to. I would put the animals needs above every thing else.
The OP says his Monitor "enjoys" live food and I'd like to know how he knows this?
cheers arthur.


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

arthur cooke said:


> My own opinion is that if I had to I would feed live but only if I had to. I would put the animals needs above every thing else.
> The OP says his Monitor "enjoys" live food and I'd like to know how he knows this?
> cheers arthur.


i agree totaly av had to live feed and also breed my own but i cant see an animal that takes frozen defrost enjoying live it seams more like the owner rather enjoys the chase and kill not the lizard when most monitors are lazy animals that cant be bothered with the chase just my say


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## Choggie (Apr 27, 2009)

I had this debate as I had been told previously it was illegal to feed live food to reptiles but it actually isn't although you should not feed live food in front of a member of the public. 

Funny that they don't apply this to locusts, crickets and other little bugs we feed our reptiles on - they are all live food after all.

One rule for one and one rule for another - crazy world at times.


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

Choggie said:


> I had this debate as I had been told previously it was illegal to feed live food to reptiles but it actually isn't although you should not feed live food in front of a member of the public.
> 
> Funny that they don't apply this to locusts, crickets and other little bugs we feed our reptiles on - they are all live food after all.
> 
> One rule for one and one rule for another - crazy world at times.


werd as it is but invertabrates and vertabrates come under diffrent laws


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Insects can't suffer in the same way as mammalian vertebrates so not really the same thing.
To me it's not whether it's legal but whether it is kinder for the prey animal to be humanly killed.
I wouldn't like to think that I am being unkind to any animal if I can avoid it.
cheers arthur.


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

It's the word 'treat' that causes the problem.

It implies fun and enjoyment, either for the reptile or its owner and that would put you on thin ice in the eyes of the law.

I live feed when I have to, but reluctantly, and only as a last resort.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

The word treat worried me to.
cheers arthur


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## diox (Apr 20, 2009)

*livefood*

been looking at all posts and i have changed my mind my lizard will eat defrosted mice and i think this is the way forward he never refuses so im gonna stick to that i thought about it giving him excercise chasing the food item although hes not interested in locusts or crickets he will chase me dangleing a dead mouse on foreceps around the room so thats no argument
so im sticking to prekilled frozen 

and maybe treat was a bad choice of words aswell:whip: 

if he goes on hunger strike i will consider live again but as i said he loves his food so this probebly wont happen

when i think about it feeding live isnt realy that cool dudes: victory:


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## Ferret1959 (Jul 16, 2008)

diox said:


> been looking at all posts and i have changed my mind my lizard will eat defrosted mice and i think this is the way forward he never refuses so im gonna stick to that i thought about it giving him excercise chasing the food item although hes not interested in locusts or crickets he will chase me dangleing a dead mouse on foreceps around the room so thats no argument
> so im sticking to prekilled frozen
> 
> and maybe treat was a bad choice of words aswell:whip:
> ...


Well said that man.:no1::no1:


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

I posted this reply to a similar question on the snake forums but I think it fits this question as well.

Firstly, there is no law that pacifically says it is illegal to feed a live vertebrate to a predator and any case taken into court based just on putting a live vertebrate in with a predator would fail very quickly. 
BUT and this is a big but, there are a number of laws both in the old animal welfare laws and in the new that could be easily broken when offering a live vertebrate to a predator, for instance the law does say that you are responsible for the well being of any animal in your care and must provide it with all it’s requirements. This could mean that whilst you don’t find yourself in trouble for live feeding, you could be in trouble for not providing food, water and sleeping arrangements for the prey animal whilst it’s in with the predator. Also if you look at the five freedoms in the new animal welfare laws you will see that not only do they clash with live feeding they also clash with feeding frozen so if we take these new laws to the letter we are wrong what ever we do.
In reality DEFRA have said that they do not consider the feeding of a live vertebrate to a predator to be illegal. It is however to be discouraged and only used when all other methods of natural feeding have been tried and failed. They also suggest that a vet should be involved and that a letter from the vet should be in the owners possession stating that all other methods have been tried and that in the vets opinion offering a live vertebrate is the last natural option to avoid the predator dying/suffering. (I do have a copy of the letter here but don’t have the time to go looking for it at the moment). 
Just for the record and all those saying live feeding is the last resort, it isn’t. This method needs to be tried while the animal is still well and strong enough to be able to kill and eat it’s prey. There is little point in putting a live rodent into a cage with a half dead snake. The end result will be a well fed rodent and a well chewed snake.
The last resort always has been and always will be force feeding.

To the OP, in the event of a group like the RSPCA getting evidence prooving you are just live feeding to give your monitor a treat, you would find it impossible to avoid a guilty verdict.
Natrix


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

diox said:


> i thought about it giving him excercise chasing the food item although hes not interested in locusts or crickets he will chase me dangleing a dead mouse on foreceps around the room so thats no argument


I bet he'd go for adult locusts if you cut down on the mice for a while  What type of monitor is he?



Natrix said:


> To the OP, in the event of a group like the RSPCA getting evidence prooving you are just live feeding to give your monitor a treat, you would find it impossible to avoid a guilty verdict.


And just to point out - writing a post on a public forum saying you do it would almost certainly be accepted as evidence!

Definitely glad, Diox, that you've decided defrost-on-tongs is the way to go.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Hi Diox,good move mate.
cheers arthur.


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

Good decision! :2thumb:


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