# WC debate.



## arran19915 (Apr 5, 2013)

Hey. It might just be me but does anyone else have a problem with keeping Wild Caught animals in their collection and the ethics of this practice?

Personally I don't keep any WC's because I don't agree with taking an animal out of the wild, stuffing it into a bag or a box, flying it halfway across the planet to be put into what is essentially a cage, just so someone can say that they have a "rare" reptile in their collection. To me there is just no way to justify this. I't borders on cruelty.

As for CB animals, they were bread for the reptile trade and as I do understand that every bloodline will have originated with WC animals. I can still justify keeping them as they were born in this country, in captivity and know no other life. 

As I say this is just my opinion and not directed at any users who do keep WC's. 

Any thoughts on this? Or anything I've missed out. (I would love to hear from users that do keep WC's too)


----------



## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

Ok, I'll bite. Although this topic is a very common, exhausted one.

I own 2 WC's (both crocodile skinks), I take offense that you say people want something 'rare' so are cruel and buy WC. Although the skinks I own aren't common, they aren't exactly rare; I wanted them before I knew that they were uncommon and spent a long time trying to source them. My WC's have dealt very well in captivity, they have food readily available, no predators, veterinary treatment when required and I leave them to their own devices in a very large, planted tank. Actually I think I take more consideration into the care of the skinks then a lot of people do with their cb reps.

People seem to have this ideal regarding 'the wild', it's not as wild and idyllic as you might like to think. Croc skinks in the wild have to deal with rapid deforestation, pesticides that kill their prey, introduced species such as cats and people that frequently disturb (and probably kill) them. They are quickly becoming endangered because native people have absolutely no interest in them unless they stand to gain something from their existence (i.e. money from catching and exporting them), so WC in the trade can be vital to conservation both _in situ_ and _ex situ_.

I do intend to breed these skinks in order to add bloodlines and help provide CB individuals of this species. If people were planning on simply keeping a WC as a pet with no view to breed and potentially help the species then I would advise they go for a CB. Incidentally commonly CB species are becoming more inbred and suffering from fitness issues due to the limited bloodlines available, I'd rather have a healthy WC then a deformed CB.


----------



## arran19915 (Apr 5, 2013)

I am sorry if I caused any offence. That was not my intention. Also being a fairly new member I was unaware of any previous threads on this subject. 
You have brought to light some points a was unaware of and if your saying that to preserve a species by ether making money off exporting a few of them that could be used to buy protection for parts of their habitat. then clearly iv been labouring under misapprehensions. or just understood this from one side. 
Also I'm not so nieve that I think Wild animals get an easy time. I mean the human footprint on any given square mile of the planet is enough to make you sick. weather it be deforestation, pollution, hunting, ect. 
as for the point you made on the CB animals. I completely agree. Obviously its easier said than done but I think its down to the breeders to be more responsible. 
Thanks for your input. You've helped me see this subject on a broader spectrum.


----------



## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

Hope I didn't come across as rude! Was trying to type quickly otherwise you'd have had a load of gobble-dee-**** from my niece  Use the search function at the top of the page, there's a lot of threads on this subject with a lot of opinions on there, many of which do think exactly the same as yourself.

The subject is very broad and complicated and often misunderstood. Don't get me wrong, there are bad importers and catchers that focus on money rather than welfare. But nowadays in the UK many importers try to do it sustainably, keep the animals in good condition and try to benefit and educate the natives. 

Unfortunately, as you've said, animals do not get an easy time of it (and that's just the problems caused by humans!); sometimes catching a small amount of wild animals is for the greater good of the species. I'm sure you'll get more opinions on this soon.


----------



## bigd_1 (May 31, 2011)

when it comes down to wc/cb is to do whit the reptile if the reptile is out there as a cb then that is what you shoud buy but when it come down to rare reptiles then sum times wc is the way to go if you are willing to bread and help get more cb out there


----------



## arran19915 (Apr 5, 2013)

Yeah it is clearly a much more complex subject than I first thought. I don't even know how I feel on it after reading what you said. Nothing is black and white I suppose.

I guess if its done sustainably and the animals welfare is kept as a top priority its not as harmful as most forms of media would make it out to be. 

The moral of the story: Do your research (which I thought I had) before posting opinionated threads. haha Cheers


----------



## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

I'll give you another point to read about (if you search wc debate threads you will see this brought up regularly). There are loads of point but i quite like this one

If animals have a value for the pet trade the locals, see it as an income, thus they will sustainable harvest them so they have a continued income. if that value is removed, the only value is in the land, thus it is slashed and burned and turned into palm oil plantations, which most western products use. In this world if things dont have a value they are quickly wiped out. If you look at reports were wc are banned, local will stop managing and protecting local habitats and thus wild numbers drop quickly. 

jay


----------



## tremerz97 (Nov 30, 2012)

I don't own a WC but I would, they've already been 'caught' so there's no problem giving it the best home you can. so yes I would buy a WC one. I would never go out a get an animal from the wild though.


----------



## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

I have a CF royal, I bought her thinking as Tremerz said, she'd already been brought into the pet trade, so I offered her a welcoming and permanent home. However, I used to think I would never do it again, and would certainly never buy WC.

Until I started reading journals, proper research materials. 

Royal pythons, it turns out, are considered an invasive species in parts of Ghana. They are harvested and sold into the pet trade. The alternative for these snakes, is certain death. They are never returned to the wild habitat, because they destroy farms and the farmers want them dead. 

I have also heard recently of people threatening to kill wild snakes, so that people offer to buy them as a pet to 'save' them. As Spikebrit says, this is an income for some very impoverished people, who are we to say it is wrong? It's easy for us with our cushy lives, and few native snakes to worry about. 

I'm not as anti-WC as I used to be, anyway.


----------



## Robb75 (Jan 15, 2010)

No, I personally wouldn't touch another WC animal ever again. Now after hearing Mr Stevens talk at the local IHS North East meeting last month it did make me think, especially regarding the deforestation issue. No money being brought in from whatever means - then no need to save said forest statement. However, with by no means of disrespect to the powers that be - I would love to see actual none biased proof of that statement (meaning, I would love to talk to the people that be ((face to face)) that gave that information out). It's the wannabe journalist in me!! 

I know some wholesalers, import agents make a living out of importing WC/CF animals then selling them onto shops. Hence my reluctance to jump right in and believe whatever comes out of there mouth. LOL! 

Another point I don't like about WC/CF is the disease issue. I don't even think we are close to naming or figuring out majority of the issues that our complex little friends can carry. Hell, we cannot even scientifically prove the difference between IBD or the so call neuro problems that some designer morphs carry, and until we are prepared to get unbiased research done into said problems I doubt we ever will. I am really not a fan of having WC/CF animals together even in the same room, especially if they come from different countries.

I think a lot of the issues that come with the designer morphs are due to inbreeding. I don't think this has anything to do with the lack of new blood at all. The new blood is out there (for majority of species anyhow) if you look for it. The inbreeding comes from greed in my eyes, plain and simple. Once you find out that a lot of traits from 'locality type' are in fact, genetic. They are inbred to make the 'genetic trait' look more extreme. Purely for the fact that a higher price can be put on it because it is 'rare'. The fact of the matter is those same said locality animals (for the most part) could have been outbred from the start. It's basically taken advantage of the human nature to desire something different looking. We know they will pay over the odds for said object. I know I am a hypocrite in that part to a point. I own animals with genetic traits also. I am not however, prepared to inbreed past F2 or at a push F3. Anyhow that's going off track somewhat.

Then there is the pro WC debate also. We wouldn't have any of these magnificent animals to begin with if it wasn't for WC. You most certainly would have more 'problems' arising from inbreeding if we hadn't of continued importing said animals. If the statement regarding deforestation is indeed true, then hey, I'm all for 'controlled' WC collecting (controlled doesn't mean wiping the whole area out to supply the thousands of shops worldwide mind you!). 

It's a tricky one with no clear cut answers I'm afraid, in my opinion anyhow.


----------



## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

I have owned a WC L. williamsi before (one of the last legally exported from the country) and would own WC again.
I would, however, be very selective in what I owned. If i can easily find the species CB, or even if it takes some effort, i would rather go down that route than WC. But if the species is hard to get hold of, or in such low numbers that more are required for a decent CB project, then I would use that avenue, but with caution. Ensuring i go through well known, reliable dealers rather than risk some dodgy back alley illegal trader.

As has already been mentioned, the WC trade can be very useful for local economies (provided fair trade rules are there) and conservation.
Without a WC trade, we wouldn't have a CB trade afterall. To drag out a much used scenario, the crestie was heavily endangered when first discovered in the wild, but thanks to captive breeding from the few wc specimens, they have made a massive comeback and are one of the most popular species i the trade today.
Something similar is hopefully going to occur with the golden mantella frog. The madagascan government has allowed the capture and export of a set number of these critically endangered frogs, so captive breeding can occur.
The likelihood is, that loggers will soon destroy every inch of their natural habitat and kill all wild frogs, but we will have a captive population so we can reintroduce them should the opportunity arrive.

Obviously, I am against the wild capture of some species which are heavily represented in the trade and face no wild danger from humans, but ultimately, we as a community should do all we can to reduce the need for wild caught.
Like, for instance, anoles. Heavily wild caught and massively under bred in this country. We should do more to breed these, and encourage the purchase of CB stock rather than the cheaper WC ones.


----------



## StevenM31 (Jun 14, 2012)

I own 5 WC Kenyan Pygmy Chameleons and personally I feel they have thrived since I have had them..... Obviously they can't talk to me to tell me that but they eat perfectly well...shed fine and poo fine....since owning them I have a constant stream of eggs... and have had roughly 75% hatch rate....from WC parents I feel that is pretty good. I personally feel they are better off how they are now than back in the wild.


----------

