# Sticky  corn morphs genetic requests.... any??



## cornmorphs

i thought i would start this up for a few people who had commented in the classifieds area.
lets see what comes up, any morphs you want to know the predicted outcome of?


----------



## Nat

*WWWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO*

WWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

This is defo for me!! hehe...

Ok I have a gorgeous snow corn who I am hoping to breed from in the future...I was wondering if you could let me know what I could expect if mated to the following as I still dont no wat to go for.

1- Amel
2- Anery
3- Another Snow
4- Candy Cane
5- Blood Red
Oh and if u wana throw in another few that u think I may be interested in breeding to my snow thats fine too!

THANX HUNI'S!!!!!!!!!!!!   :lol: :lol:


----------



## NNY

From what I know.. im breeding my male anery het snow to a snow.. because it means I will get amels, anerys and snows.. and maybe some ghosts as he could be het for ghost.. i think thats right and hope it helps in some tiny way Nat :lol:


----------



## cornmorphs

ok, so the one you have now is snow?
snow to amel will give all amels het for snow.
snow to anery will give all anerys het amel.
snow to snow will give all snows.
snow to candy cane will give all amels, this is because candy IS a form of amel.
snow to bloodred is likely to give normals het for bloodred and snow.

these are based on the fact there is no hidden hets.. this is not very likely to be honest, its almost certain that you will have some hets that you wont know about.


----------



## SilverSteno

Here's another one for you Nige

Anery (mother unknown, father ghost) and a ghost


----------



## Nat

*wow*

Wow thanx, that really helps alot!!..


----------



## asnakecalled?

how about a blizzard het amel to a classic het amel, het caramel, het butter.

they are just hatchlings so wont be breading for a while


----------



## cornmorphs

Silvershark said:


> Here's another one for you Nige
> 
> Anery (mother unknown, father ghost) and a ghost


going on that then

1/4 normal het. Ghost
1/4 Anery A, het. Hypo
1/4 Hypo, het. Anery A
1/4 Ghost


----------



## cornmorphs

asnakecalled? said:


> how about a blizzard het amel to a classic het amel, het caramel, het butter.
> 
> they are just hatchlings so wont be breading for a while


ok lets have alook.

blizzard will have amel in it, so not sure how its het amel, but heres what you should get.
1/4 normal het. Blizzard
1/4 Amel, het. Charcoal
1/4 normal het. Blizzard, het. Caramel
1/4 Amel, het. Charcoal, het. Caramel


----------



## bigp

what about creamsicle - anery???? 

they've hatched and all look normal.


----------



## cornmorphs

well in theory paul ( i think its you), they may well be rootbeers, or coppers... have you got any pics?


----------



## Andy

do you do boa morphs?


----------



## bigp

cornmorphs said:


> well in theory paul ( i think its you), they may well be rootbeers, or coppers... have you got any pics?


it sure is matey. not been on in ages as its all gone tits up here!!!

i thought they might have been rootbeers or coppers but wasn't sure.

i'll get a few pics on the go soon.

boa genetics are alot less confusin than corns!


----------



## cornmorphs

i dont know a great deal about boas to be honest andy..
there must be a site to help you out somewhere


----------



## bigp

andyj5447 said:


> do you do boa morphs?


what do you want to know mate??


----------



## Andy

i think i know the outcome but what would you get from a aneryxpastel? i think you would get some pastels and het for anerys or would it be some anerys as well? i just cant seem to make this genetics stuff stay in my head!


----------



## bigp

is it type 1 or type 2 anery???


----------



## Andy

type 1 mate


----------



## bigp

if i remember right you would get pastels and normals in the litter and all of them would be het anery, but the pastels would be het anerys that could also produce ivorys

please correct me if i got that wrong guys


----------



## scotty

Nige..you know how mine is creamsicle ( creamsicle x amel ) and ive got an anery when i breed them will they be coppers/rootbeers?


----------



## Andy

bigp said:


> if i remember right you would get pastels and normals in the litter and all of them would be het anery, but the pastels would be het anerys that could also produce ivorys
> 
> please correct me if i got that wrong guys


yeah that was sorta what I was thinking I think!I will have to see what happens next year! Cheers mate.


----------



## wohic

Hi Nige........

Ok so If I put My butter male to and amel stripe female what will I get ?


----------



## cornmorphs

hets for butter amel and stripe, depending on any hets from those snakes.


----------



## Guest

Here you go Nige

Butter x caramel
green blotched snow x coral snow 
amel x amel het anery
anery(unknown genetics) x ghost
reverse okeetee x carolina motley(unknown genetics)
black x carolina(unknown genetics)
candycane x creamsicle


----------



## loulou

wohic said:


> Hi Nige........
> 
> Ok so If I put My butter male to and amel stripe female what will I get ?


i thought you would get amel het for caramel and stripe with this as butter has the amel gene in it or is that what you said anyway nige and i should just shut up and go away :lol:


----------



## cornmorphs

officially you would, thats how the programmes would put it.
you would produce both butter and caramel


----------



## cornmorphs

Greenphase said:


> Here you go Nige
> 
> Butter x caramel
> green blotched snow x coral snow
> amel x amel het anery
> anery(unknown genetics) x ghost
> reverse okeetee x carolina motley(unknown genetics)
> black x carolina(unknown genetics)
> candycane x creamsicle


eh? what am i helping you for? lol, you been doing this as long as me lol..
ok, i'll have a go...
butter to caramel....
caramels het amel...


green blotched snow to coral snow is not an easy one, its likely to be a normal snow to a coral really, so you would be looking at snows het for hypo.

reverse okeetee x carolina motley... likely to be het for amel and motley..

black to carolina? black as in anery? or is it a type of melanistic? either way they would be normal het for... whichever

candy to creamsicle, with cream not being pure corn is not straight forward, but you are likely to get amel looking snakes from this breeding.

amel to amel het anery...
all amels, 50% het anery


----------



## loulou

cornmorphs said:


> officially you would, thats how the programmes would put it.
> you would produce both butter and caramel


ok i am still on the butter cross amel stripe here so bare with me

i was trying to work out how you got butters and caramels from these parents and could not for the life of me work it out i produced punnet squares and even got ray to do one as well (hes a horticulturist and one of his specialist subjects was plant genetics so he finds punnets quite simple) and then i resorted to the corn morphs predictor 

i was looking at it this way, the only way you would get caramels is if both parents carry the caramel gene which they do not (unless its a hidden het not stated) and the only way you would get butters is if both parents carried the amel and caramel gene (the amel stripe no hets is lacking the caramel gene so eliminates these from the outcome). that leaves just amel as both parents carry this and then theres the stripe which only the amel stripe has so this would be passed as a het to the offspring.

hense my outcome of amels het for caramel her for stripe 

when i double checked myself on the predictor it came up with this 










now i could of got completely the wrong end of the stick and you could of been talking about something else and if thats the case i will eat humble pie


----------



## phil

Hi Nigel,what would i get if i bred a goldust mot to a striped caramel het for ultra :twisted:


----------



## cornmorphs

cornmorphs said:


> hets for butter amel and stripe, depending on any hets from those snakes.


as it say here... HETS not VISUALS, then i added the caramel bit, which i presumed you would have taken as hets too... guess not lol..


----------



## cornmorphs

phil said:


> Hi Nigel,what would i get if i bred a goldust mot to a striped caramel het for ultra :twisted:


lol, please tell me thats not what you have ordered? lol... that would be one hell of a breeding lol


----------



## cornmorphs

yeah i just did the same,...
1/1 Amel, het. Stripe, het. Caramel
which is what we all knew anyway.
breed the babies back together and you will get this...
1/16 Amel
1/8 Amel, het. Stripe
1/8 Amel, het. Caramel
1/4 Amel, het. Stripe, het. Caramel
1/16 Amel, Stripe
1/8 Amel, Stripe, het. Caramel
1/16 Butter
1/8 Butter, het. Stripe
1/16 Butter, Stripe
nice and easy.


----------



## phil

cornmorphs said:


> phil said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Nigel,what would i get if i bred a goldust mot to a striped caramel het for ultra :twisted:
> 
> 
> 
> lol, please tell me thats not what you have ordered? lol... that would be one hell of a breeding lol
Click to expand...


lol,nah,just thought i would F with your head a bit lol


----------



## cornmorphs

lol, what WOULD you get from that though? lol


----------



## phil

cornmorphs said:


> lol, what WOULD you get from that though? lol


dono? will try to work it out ,for a laugh


----------



## phil

shit dude! it wasnt actually that hard to work out!!

1/4 goldust mot het stripe
1/4 caramel mot het stripe and amel
1/4 ultra caramel mot het stripe
1/4 caramel mot het ultra and stripe

at least i think thats right


----------



## asnakecalled?

how about a (male) ghost to a classic het amel, het caramel, het butter.


----------



## JaneW

asnakecalled? said:


> how about a (male) ghost to a classic het amel, het caramel, het butter.


I can do this! LOL! You'll get normals het for anery and hypo (ghost), poss het amel and caramel.

This is the sort of post I love to see! Corn genetics is my anorak!


----------



## asnakecalled?

thanks JaneW, i don`t understand genetics it just goes in 1 ear and out the other. 

how about if a breed a amber (male) with a ghost.


----------



## JaneW

Well, amber is hypomelanistic caramel, and ghost is hypomelanistic anery. So, bred together, you'll get all hypomelanistics het for caramel and anery.

Corn genetics is mostly really straightforward - the majority of the morphs are simple recessive mutations, so you can work them out fairly easily once you've got the hang of it. The trick (I've found) is getting the basic knowledge first - learn what makes up the different morphs too, the rest just falls into place after that! 

The difficult ones are the newer rarer morphs such as ultra, ultramel, golddust etc. Nigel is extremely lucky that he's got his hands on some of them - I'm quite envious! LOL! Ultra and amel are what is known as "co-dominant", which means that they share the same locus. So, you can't have a corn "het for ultramel", because if that gene is mutated on one side with ultra and the other side with amel, the animal is ultramel. If just one side has ultra and the other side is normal, the animal is het for ultra, but not ultramel, if that makes sense! 

Also, morphs such as bloodred, caramel, hypo and sometimes motley, can show a difference in the heterozygous form, but not always, so that can be quite confusing too!

Its such an intriguing subject though!


----------



## phil

these can help,do the hard work for you :wink: 

http://www.supersnakes.com/gwiz.htm

http://www.cornsnakes.nl/GenericGenWiz/MPGW.htm


----------



## asnakecalled?

thanks phil


----------



## cornmorphs

dont be, i'm sure there will be enough to go round soon... theres a lot of people briging stuff over from hamm.


----------



## wohic

right then Nige oh master of the corn snake orical
i have (some still wee bubbas so this is long term LOL
Butter (my only male at the moment
adult Amel stripe
Adult Caramel
Adult Classic
Amber
Hypo het charcoal, het blizzard,het amel
Snow
Butter
Norm het amel
normal het caramel, het amel, het butter

would it be worth investing in another male. and if so what would be the ideal and failing that a realistic option LOL !
these are all just my 'pets' but if i were to breed it makes sense to aim for good offspring


----------



## cornmorphs

well i something to go with the het blizzard would be cool, maybe a bloodred or a ghost.
the butter will be fine with the amel stripe and the caramel stripe, they will give various hets, although butter to caramel should give you a few caramels right away.
you have mainly got caramel gene in that lot, so with butter being amel caramel then theres plenty of ways to make a new line of butters too... which is nice.
its always nice to use stripes, maybe you could get a lavender and go for het for lav stripes? something like that


----------



## wohic

mmmmmmmm lavender male, might make a good christmas pressie. 8)


----------



## cornmorphs

lol, i have one, but its stopped eating... i'm gonna try the trusty tuna scent tomorrow :lol:


----------



## wohic

good luck with the feeding, I have got 5 non eating hatchlings i have taken on, tryed the tuna, gonna try tuna plus waxworm tub tomorrow


----------



## cornmorphs

i forgot to do it... doh, next weeek


----------



## wohic

tuna plus waxie tub was a no go, think next step will be fresh killed, silly babies .


----------



## cornmorphs

tuna is usually really good


----------



## wohic

yay my little caramel fed (waxie tub and new born fresh killed pink !) 5 more to go, and i really must stop going off topic


----------



## Ssthisto

cornmorphs said:


> Silvershark said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's another one for you Nige
> 
> Anery (mother unknown, father ghost) and a ghost
> 
> 
> 
> going on that then
> 
> 1/4 normal het. Ghost
> 1/4 Anery A, het. Hypo
> 1/4 Hypo, het. Anery A
> 1/4 Ghost
Click to expand...

How does that work if one parent's an Anery (100% het hypo if Dad was a ghost) and one parent's a Ghost (anery hypo) ... you shouldn't get any normals or standard hypos out of that because both parents are visual Anerythristic.


----------



## cornmorphs

i did that on a progaramme and didnt look at it after lol..
its should be 1/2 anery het hypo and 1/2 ghost


----------



## shell shocked

ok i have at the mo ( all unknown for hets)
1 male normal x some sort of rat ( is 6ft long well stocky has a big chunky head and is really red)
1 normal female
1 male creamsicle orange ( so im told)
1 snow (not sure of sex too young)
1 anery (as above)
1 male everglades rat.

Can i get anything nice from any of these ( i know not easy with no idea what parents were etc or the sexes on younguns but a rough idea would be nice)


----------



## cornmorphs

anery to snow will give pretty much all anerys.
other than that, creamsicles otfen produce nice coppers when put to normal corns.
i wouldnt put anything non corn into it really, i creams are hybrids but i mean mainly the everglades.


----------



## pie_man

ok whoever answers this what about my ghost stripe female x my goldust male?


----------



## toyah

Let me have my go and see if cornmorphs corrects me  Goldust is an ultramel caramel, yeah? Or can it be an ultra caramel...

You'd get a whole clutch of normals, het hypo, anery, caramel, and stripe. If I understand the ultramel thing correctly, half of the clutch would be het ultra, the other half would be het amel - of course, you'd not be able to distinguish which half were which...


----------



## cornmorphs

normals
50% poss het amel, het anery,het caramel, het stripe, poss het ultra, poss het hypo
so quite easy :lol:


----------



## shell shocked

cheers nige.
A good friend of mine who i will be breeding with has got a female grey ratsnake and we were thinking of breeding that to my male corn x rat.
This female is pretty big at over 7ft and well stocky ( she left a nice set of teeth marks in my hand earlier too  .
Do you think this would produce a large strain of cornx as my male is over 6 ft aswell.


----------



## toyah

> 50% poss het amel, het anery,het caramel, het stripe, poss het ultra, poss het hypo


Surely they'd be definite het hypo, from a ghost parent?


----------



## cornmorphs

it gets quite complicated here. you have 2 types of hypo, they can cancel each other out..
those workings were done on the programme, so if they are wrong... go blame the corn snake scientist that spent years making it lol


----------



## CBR1100XX

Hi Nige

what am I likely to get with my Creamsicle Stripe (male) and Reverse Okeetee het butter (female)?

Sy


----------



## cornmorphs

with creamsicle not being pure corn its hard, no programme will give you any results.
its likely you will get all amels, or amel looking snakes at least.. only thing is you would have to sell them as hybrids still, even though iin theory they should be very pretty.


----------



## asnakecalled?

hi nige 

what would i get if a bread a Amber (male) to a Silver Queen (female)
or a Amber (male) to a Caramel het butter, het amber


----------



## cornmorphs

ok, option one... all hypo het for anery and caramel.
option 2... half het hypo 50% het amel
half ambers 50% het amel...


----------



## asnakecalled?

cool thanks


----------



## cornmorphs

no probs dude, anything you think of stick it here and i'llhave a go.
if not i'm sure one of my yankie friends will be able to sort it.


----------



## welshgaz

Think this thread should b called 'test nige' :lol:


----------



## cornmorphs

lol, nah, any really hard ones i ask someone else (usually a programme anyway)... although sometimes even they give weird results.


----------



## asnakecalled?

hi nige, i was just after some help i have 2 males and 5 feamales i just wanted to now what would go best together, the males are - amber and a possible ultramel motley (it came from america so only time will tell)
and the feamales are - anery, Silver Queen ghost, caramel het amel het butter, amel and a creamsical ( im kind of ruleing out the creamsical because at the end of the day it dosen`t matter what colour they are the hatchlings will still be creamsicals).


----------



## cornmorphs

i'll sort the rest out later, but for now if you put the ultramel male to the amel female then you will get ultramels, so that will tell you for def if the male is ultramel


----------



## asnakecalled?

cool thanks. its a good job theres someone like you here to help thickies like me, i get realy confused on genetics :roll:


----------



## cornmorphs

the amber to the ghost wil give hets for amber amoungst other things.
i would probably use the ultramel to the caramel too as that will then give you hets for goldust effectively.. let me work out exactly what you would get


----------



## cornmorphs

ok, the caramel het amel to the ultramel motley


ok gives 50% normals..het caramel and motley, and 50% poss het amel and ultra 
25% amels het caramel and motley
25% ultramel het caramel and motley... these are the ones too keep


----------



## asnakecalled?

thanks nige for your help


----------



## cornmorphs

no probs dude, would be really sweet if that snake did end up being ultramel


----------



## wohic

its me again !!

ok so now i have my snow male given the options i have who is best with who ?

I will just list the adults at breeding weight and age.

all unknown hets
1.0 Butter
1.0 snow
0.1 normal
0.1amel stripe
0.1 caramel

i was thinking snow to stripe and normal and butter to caramel ?


----------



## Zephyr

My Corn has a really dirty wash of melanin over him, would breeding him with a hypomelanistic get rid of that melanin in the offspring???


----------



## cornmorphs

Zephyr said:


> My Corn has a really dirty wash of melanin over him, would breeding him with a hypomelanistic get rid of that melanin in the offspring???


the f2 generation would do, depends on hets for the result for the 1st round of babies


----------



## cornmorphs

wohic said:


> its me again !!
> 
> ok so now i have my snow male given the options i have who is best with who ?
> 
> I will just list the adults at breeding weight and age.
> 
> all unknown hets
> 1.0 Butter
> 1.0 snow
> 0.1 normal
> 0.1amel stripe
> 0.1 caramel
> 
> i was thinking snow to stripe and normal and butter to caramel ?


if thats what you want to make then yes, financially i would go for butter to the amel stripe and probably the caramel too, not so sure what i'd use the snow on, the normal is almost certainly going to be het something so actually if you put the snow and normal together that would determine if the normal was het amel or anery if nothing else.
if you just fancy making hets for snow stripe, then yes go with what you said.


----------



## wohic

thanks nigel, cunning plan is to go with your suggestion and perhaps get another girlie for the snow 8) (any excuse )


----------



## cornmorphs

yes probably lol.. can never have too many girls, although if i dont get a few more soon i might have a few frustrated males next year lol


----------



## corn-lover

*hello*

any help with the following would be much appreciated. Hets added if known.

I have a very bright amel male whose father was a sunglow (het anery) and mother was a Miami Amel (het hypo & anery)

What could i breed him with?

also i have 

MALE AMEL (het snow)
FEMALE BUTTER MOTLEY
FEMALE STRAWBERRY SNOW
MALE CHOCOLATE
FEMALE AMEL
FEMALE ANERY (part rat snake)
FEMALE CREAMSICLE

Thanks


----------



## cornmorphs

hiya, looking at that list and whee you live i think i know who you are lol... hows the butter motley doing?
dont think there is such thing an a miami amel atthe moment, although if there is i'm sure the yanks are doing it right now.
its a bit awkward with what you have there really as.
the creamsicle and female hybird anery are obviously not pure corns, offspring would not sell wel.
the chocolate i would have to see really to decide what it actually is, i had some of these a few years ago but they were also hybrids.
as for the others, i'd probably go snow to amel het snow, and also the amel het snow to the amel... as for the butter motley, i wouldnt waste it on the amel, come and see me in 2 years and i'll do a breeding loan with you, or will find you something to pair it up with.
MALE AMEL (het snow) 
FEMALE BUTTER MOTLEY 
FEMALE STRAWBERRY SNOW 
MALE CHOCOLATE 
FEMALE AMEL 
FEMALE ANERY (part rat snake) 
FEMALE CREAMSICLE


----------



## corn-lover

*miami amel*

hi yeah you do have a good memory, the but mots doin great, we will definatly have to do something with her in the future. 
with regards to the miami amel, i purchased a sunglow from ace reptiles and when it arrived it looked like a twin of my amel i got from u. i complained and was sent a huge bu****it e-mail about a sunglow bein a bright amel and that it had to be a sunglow due to the parentage (father sunglow mother miami amel) i've sent pics to a breeder and noone can tell what he is. 

I'm also interested in your snow coral, is it still available


----------



## cornmorphs

send me the pics, or put them on this site for all to see.
my amel, while very bright was just an amel, so anyone trying to sell you something similar as something is else is either unknowledgable and shouldnt therefor be selling them or is blantently ripping you.
i dont think anyone on this forum will have heard or a amel miami...
amel is amel, miami is basically a specifically bred normal.. the only way to have the 2 visually shown in one snake is by way of an ultramel... i'm sure someone would know this is they had bred it.


----------



## Elaphe

any idea of what i would get if my female miami was bred with a male snow corn without knowing the hets?


----------



## cornmorphs

normals het for snow as a miami is a normal.. although there would be a good chance you would get a few others as theres not many that are just normal and nothet for anything at all.


----------



## Robbie

Blizzard male to a Charcoal het.Bloodred female?


----------



## DeanThorpe

hey dude...whast your email? ill tell you the answer....


----------



## cornmorphs

lol deano


all charcoal het amel, 50% het bloodred


----------



## ReptileObsession

ok ive got one, i dont know if its been asked before; 5 pages is alot to go thru.

i have and abino (pic in my signature) and im planning on getting a miami phase (dont know if theres another name for it)

what would i get if they anded up breeding?

alino is female if that makes any difference.

thanks
ella


----------



## Ssthisto

Amel X Miami = 100% normal het Amel (Miami phase is a selectively bred normal). 

They might look a bit Miami-ish, but no guarantees.


----------



## gargoyle1980

how about female snow motley with either a normal het snow, or anery het amel?


----------



## cornmorphs

snow motley to the normal het snow will give mostly snows, the rest will be het for snow.
anery het amel would produce various, you might be lucky and get normals, amels, anerys and a snow or 2.


----------



## markhill

male greenspot snowcorn-female anery?
Thanks


----------



## captaincaveman

heres one for ya nige...

my reverse okeetee and a crimson het striped?


also what would you need to get a miami, thats bright red saddles on light base like this


----------



## cornmorphs

markhill said:


> male greenspot snowcorn-female anery?
> Thanks


in theory all anerys het snow


----------



## cornmorphs

captaincaveman said:


> heres one for ya nige...
> 
> my reverse okeetee and a crimson het striped?
> 
> 
> also what would you need to get a miami, thats bright red saddles on light base like this


you would more than likely get normals all het for RO (or amel) and hypo, 50% het stripe..
as for the miami? hmmm, raid all the top yankie sites and see what there is mate, i doubt there is anything that good in the uk.


----------



## bloodxonxyourxhands

Nige, you seem to know your shit..... on friday I'm gonna buy myself some little snow and anery corns, any advice on a third morph to buy to make pretty babies? I'm buying from CPR, so theres a good few morphs available if you want to have a look www.crystalpalacereptiles.com. 
My boss said I should give the anery and snow a miss and just use the money for a butter instead (methinks he would like to borrow if for his breeding programmes ) Out of the corns on the website (excluding the super expensive ones), which would you think would make a nice addition to the pair? I'm mainly buying the snow and anery because i think they are pretty, but if i could have a go at some pretty morphs, it'd be fun

thanks!


----------



## Ukjay

Okies nige heres one for you for my future reference :lol: :lol: 


a ghost motley bred to an anery het for opal/hypo/lav/motley/amel

cheers mate not too hot on corn morphs gimme burm ones anyday i can fatham those out lol


----------



## cornmorphs

bloodxonxyourxhands said:


> Nige, you seem to know your shit..... on friday I'm gonna buy myself some little snow and anery corns, any advice on a third morph to buy to make pretty babies? I'm buying from CPR, so theres a good few morphs available if you want to have a look www.crystalpalacereptiles.com.
> My boss said I should give the anery and snow a miss and just use the money for a butter instead (methinks he would like to borrow if for his breeding programmes ) Out of the corns on the website (excluding the super expensive ones), which would you think would make a nice addition to the pair? I'm mainly buying the snow and anery because i think they are pretty, but if i could have a go at some pretty morphs, it'd be fun
> 
> thanks!


well really you wont get much unless you have something with lots of hets.
i would be tempted to go with an amel i guess, nice and cheap.
that leaves you able to produce amels, anerys, snows... maybe more if there are other hets involvoed.


----------



## cornmorphs

Ukjay said:


> Okies nige heres one for you for my future reference :lol: :lol:
> 
> 
> a ghost motley bred to an anery het for opal/hypo/lav/motley/amel
> 
> cheers mate not too hot on corn morphs gimme burm ones anyday i can fatham those out lol


ok, in theory... 

1/4 will be anery
1/4 ghost
1/4 anery motley
1/4 ghost motley
and there will be millions of hets and possible hets there too


----------



## Ukjay

cheers dude that corn prediction programme got me all confused with tthis het for that and so on lol :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## cornmorphs

lol, yeh it can be quite hard to work it all out


----------



## kennedykrew

Right, here you go Nige.
male bloodred to female snow. no known hets.
the computer says no.... rmals. what could the normals be het for?


----------



## kennedykrew

The snow when paired with amel produced amels only if that helps.


----------



## cornmorphs

snows will always produce amels.
you would get normals het for snow bloodred... i cant remember if they are known as whiteout or avalanche ? i always get them mixed up, the other one is blood opal or blopal... stupid name


----------



## melanie

*what will i get if i breed*

what will i get if i breed my male motley anerythristic corn snake male with:

striped amelanistic
motley butter
candy cane 

please 
also what else is another good morph i can put with my male , will be looking to buy some corn morp babies this year, but won't be breeding for a couple of years yet as i am concentrating on my leopard gecko morphs


----------



## cornmorphs

well in all honesty, unless there are a few hets that you dont know about then they are likely to all be normal.
to the amel stripe you will get her for snow stripes and motleys, to the butter motley you will get motleys het snow, butter, and to the candy cane you will get het snows as a candy cane is basically an amel.
i would get males to pair up with those females myself, you would get better results.


----------



## Ssthisto

cornmorphs said:


> snows will always produce amels.
> you would get normals het for snow bloodred... i cant remember if they are known as whiteout or avalanche ? i always get them mixed up, the other one is blood opal or blopal... stupid name


Amel + Anery + Bloodred/Diffuse = Avalanche
Amel + Charcoal + Bloodred/Diffuse = Whiteout
Amel + Lavender + Bloodred/Diffuse = "Blopal" or more usually "Opal Blood"

And if you breed a Motley Anerythristic to a Striped Amel (with no known hets) you will get 100% Motley het for Snow and Stripe. Motley is dominant to stripe according to breeding trials thus far; an animal that carries one copy of Motley and one copy of Stripe will look like a Motley (with all the normal variation that motley carries!)


----------



## cornmorphs

cheers dude, i was on the right lines, just couldnt remember off the top of my head as i havent really dealt with the morphs


----------



## CBR1100XX

Hi Nige 

What could I expect from the following:

Amber Female to Butter Motley Male

Reverse Okeetee het Butter Female to Candy Cane Male

Anery Motley (A) het Snow Female to Anery (B) Male


----------



## captaincaveman

fazer600sy said:


> Hi Nige
> 
> What could I expect from the following:
> 
> Amber Female to Butter Motley Male
> 
> Reverse Okeetee het Butter Female to Candy Cane Male
> 
> Anery Motley (A) het Snow Female to Anery (B) Male


 
i can do the first one one

amber to butter motley would give you caramel het for amel, hypomel and motley

second ones both amels so not sure on what pattern youd get but still be amels(probably wide okeetee bands would come out)


----------



## Ssthisto

fazer600sy said:


> Hi Nige
> 
> What could I expect from the following:
> 
> Amber Female to Butter Motley Male
> 
> Reverse Okeetee het Butter Female to Candy Cane Male
> 
> Anery Motley (A) het Snow Female to Anery (B) Male


CaptainCaveman is spot on on the Amber to Butter Motley cross.

Reverse Okeetee (selectively bred Amel) het Butter to Candy Cane (selectively bred Amel) male:

100% Amel who are 50% poss het butter. No guarantees on pattern, though you're unlikely to get any GOOD Reverse Okees or any good Candy Canes. .

Anery Motley het Snow female to Charcoal male:

100% Normal het Anery, Motley and Charcoal, 50% possible het Amel.


----------



## wohic

I am about to be the new mum of an amel female and an anery male corn, I have one of the offspring from last years pairing already.. a lovely ghost stripe,am I right in thinking this would this mean the adults are both het stripe ?


----------



## cornmorphs

yes, and hypo, and the amel will be het anery too.


----------



## wohic

Oooo thanks Nige, thats good news, I think I may have got a bargain then


----------



## cornmorphs

always good to hear


----------



## joanna

*hi*

I have a hypo amel female and i have a male creamsicle, male ghost and a male normal, what would i get from breeding any of those male with my female? i want to breed the female so waht do you think would be best which male? 
thanks Jo xx


----------



## cornmorphs

well creamsicle isnt pure corn anyway, so either way that will produce hybrids.
the only way you will get anything other than normals is hypo to ghost, you will get a few hypo, thats about it really


----------



## captaincaveman

heres one that i find confusing nige. if you put an okeetee together with a common with narrow bands(or hardly any) will you get a potential increase in band width in the f1 or f2 of any of the offspring?


----------



## cornmorphs

wel in theory yes mate. thats how new morphs are made, by keeping back alot of hatchlings and just playing around.


----------



## captaincaveman

could you see it as early as the f1?


----------



## cornmorphs

its hard to say, but i would think there is likely to be some improvment.


----------



## captaincaveman

ok cool:grin:


----------



## cornmorphs

making improvements is quite rewarding...
dude, i forgot.. i am working in the area tomorrow all day.. are you about? might pop by


----------



## captaincaveman

yeah, just give us a bell so we are there, we dont usually go far, and it give us time to put the kettle on


----------



## cornmorphs

will do boss lol


----------



## captaincaveman

Tried this on a us forum but no luck so thought id ask on here too, someone today told me that certain morphs of corns only last 5years cause of the genetics from getting different morphs, is this for heavily inbred "super morphs" or many of the more well known ones?


----------



## Ssthisto

As far as I'm aware....

There are no colour morphs thus far that seem to reduce longevity or cause early death in their wearers as an intrinsic part of the colour morph (unlike colours of mice, which DO have problems if they have, for example, certain spotting patterns or lethal homozygous genes).

However, if a line is heavily and intensively inbred/linebred, it does increase the risk that other totally unrelated genes can get "linked" to a colour pattern because every snake bearing that colour might also carry the detrimental genes.

I have not heard of this happening at this time - most of the 'colour related bad traits' I've heard of are related to the descendants of wild-caught (and thus no more inbred than having a population that tends to stay in one area) morphs who had a marked preference for eating lizards even in captivity (Bloodred, Caramel) - this tendency can be bred out by only breeding animals that take mice readily from day one. 

Certainly I've never heard of a corn that had a five-year sell-by date


----------



## captaincaveman

Ssthisto said:


> As far as I'm aware....
> 
> There are no colour morphs thus far that seem to reduce longevity or cause early death in their wearers as an intrinsic part of the colour morph (unlike colours of mice, which DO have problems if they have, for example, certain spotting patterns or lethal homozygous genes).
> 
> However, if a line is heavily and intensively inbred/linebred, it does increase the risk that other totally unrelated genes can get "linked" to a colour pattern because every snake bearing that colour might also carry the detrimental genes.
> 
> I have not heard of this happening at this time - most of the 'colour related bad traits' I've heard of are related to the descendants of wild-caught (and thus no more inbred than having a population that tends to stay in one area) morphs who had a marked preference for eating lizards even in captivity (Bloodred, Caramel) - this tendency can be bred out by only breeding animals that take mice readily from day one.
> 
> Certainly I've never heard of a corn that had a five-year sell-by date


 
thanks, thats been bothering me


----------



## cornmorphs

there has been a lot of mysterious yearling deaths... its beleived that a lot of this is down to inbreeding, but nothing is proven


----------



## captaincaveman

cornmorphs said:


> there has been a lot of mysterious yearling deaths... its beleived that a lot of this is down to inbreeding, but nothing is proven


i had a certain person telling me, but he was generally putting a downer on the whole morph thing, saying morphs dont sell and no-one wants lavenders, bloodreds, blizzards, pewters etc as everybodys going back to more natural looking snakes:lol2:


----------



## cornmorphs

everyone has their favourites, but i wouldnt for one minute say those morphs are getting unpopular mate, no way.


----------



## Ssthisto

Heck, I want one of every single morph you've named there... and have breeding pairs to produce three of the four (hopefully!) somewhere down the line.


----------



## captaincaveman

exactly i still want the last 3of them(and a male of the lav)plus a few more:lol2: . maybe that person's not into them


----------



## Ssthisto

Eh, probably trying to discourage you from buying THEM when you could maybe buy something like a nice Abbott's Okeetee from HIM?

That said, a good clean Miami is on my list.


----------



## captaincaveman

Ssthisto said:


> Eh, probably trying to discourage you from buying THEM when you could maybe buy something like a nice Abbott's Okeetee from HIM?
> 
> That said, a good clean Miami is on my list.


 
he'd never heard of an abbotts oke, dont want to mention names as its a shop, im not sure if i caught him in a bad mood but he wasn't his usual self and a bit anti morphs


----------



## cornmorphs

lavenders, bloodreds, blizzards, pewters

out of those dude i will have plenty of lavs planned this year, bloods will mostly be next and they will be plasma plans with those, pewters i should have this year... and i just dont like blizzards lol.... saying that, i hated lavs but got some in the end... i think the variation has got me a little now though with the recent new additions...


----------



## captaincaveman

the bloodreds more for amanda, so i'll get one of those before the most expensive ones, to soften the blow and keep her happy(plus its a bonus for me as they are growing on me)


----------



## cornmorphs

yeah, sure there will be a few about in a few months


----------



## baby05x

Ssthisto said:


> Heck, I want one of every single morph you've named there... and have breeding pairs to produce three of the four (hopefully!) somewhere down the line.


im nearly there lol


----------



## cornmorphs

i'll bo ok next year, i have a lot of 2005 females that are not going to breed this year..
got some good projects for next year though.
lav cubed, lav and opal stripes, lav, opal and hypo lav motleys..
i think the hypo lav stripes will be 2009


----------



## tripper23

might be a stupid question but what does het actually mean every body keeps sayin it but i,m not sure wot it means is it similar to resecive


----------



## Ssthisto

Tripper: Think of genes as like pairs of beads in a string. Each "gene locus" is one pair of beads - and an animal gets one bead from mum and one bead from dad. 

If both of those beads are the same, the animal is "homozygous" for that gene.

If each bead is different, the animal is "heterozygous" or "het" for that gene. 

In corn snakes so far, most "not-wildtype" genes are recessive - so, for example, a "het for amelanistic" animal has one "amelanistic" bead and one "Not-amelanistic" bead. Because "Not-Amelanistic" is dominant, you get an animal that isn't amelanistic looking - but if it's bred to an animal who is or carries amelanistic, it can produce visual amelanistic offspring if it hands over that "Amelanistic" bead. 

However, I'm sure we'll find or prove out a Dominant, Codominant or Incomplete Dominant corn snake gene eventually - we have with leopard geckos, so there's probably SOMETHING out there! In the cases of dominant, codominant and incomplete dominant genes, a "het" animal might not look normal at all!


----------



## 1949_sam

*Hello nige, so what would i get with my corns, they are all on my sig  hope you don't mind hun?*


----------



## Ssthisto

I'll have a go:

You have the following males:
Amelanistic, Snow, Butter, Anery het Snow Motley and a Normal Het Hypo.

You have the following females:
Amelanistic X2, Snow, Ghost, Lavender het motley.

What crosses had you personally considered?

The crosses *I* would make would be:

Cross your Amels (which includes the Reverse Okee - that's just a selectively bred Amel) with your Anery het Snow Motley. Out of these, you'll get:

50% normal het snow, 50% chance het motley.
50% Amel het anery, 50% chance het motley.

And if you get any Anery or Snow babies, you know that the amel in question is also het Anery.

I'd put the Snow male to the ghost and the other snow - that way, you'll get snows from the snow and Anery het hypo and amel offspring from the ghost. Conversely, you could put the ghost to the normal het hypo and get some normals het ghost and some hypos het ghost. 

I'd be tempted to put your Butter poss het motley male to your Lavender het motley female. This would result in all normals who are triple het for lavender, caramel and amelanistic, and possibly some Motleys. The animals I've seen who are presumed visual Lavender/Caramels (which would be the F2 generation of this cross) are VERY interesting peachy things.


----------



## cornmorphs

looks like a got a full time assistant lol.. keep it up hun


----------



## 1949_sam

Ssthisto said:


> I'll have a go:
> 
> You have the following males:
> Amelanistic, Snow, Butter, Anery het Snow Motley and a Normal Het Hypo.
> 
> You have the following females:
> Amelanistic X2, Snow, Ghost, Lavender het motley.
> 
> What crosses had you personally considered?
> 
> The crosses *I* would make would be:
> 
> Cross your Amels (which includes the Reverse Okee - that's just a selectively bred Amel) with your Anery het Snow Motley. Out of these, you'll get:
> 
> 50% normal het snow, 50% chance het motley.
> 50% Amel het anery, 50% chance het motley.
> 
> And if you get any Anery or Snow babies, you know that the amel in question is also het Anery.
> 
> I'd put the Snow male to the ghost and the other snow - that way, you'll get snows from the snow and Anery het hypo and amel offspring from the ghost. Conversely, you could put the ghost to the normal het hypo and get some normals het ghost and some hypos het ghost.
> 
> I'd be tempted to put your Butter poss het motley male to your Lavender het motley female. This would result in all normals who are triple het for lavender, caramel and amelanistic, and possibly some Motleys. The animals I've seen who are presumed visual Lavender/Caramels (which would be the F2 generation of this cross) are VERY interesting peachy things.


 
*Thanks a lot Ssthisto thats a great help  if i get more corns i'll be back with more questions if thats ok :smile: *

*Thanks again xxx*


----------



## tripper23

ssthisto thanks alot for the explenation i actually think i understand now at least i have a much clearer idea then befor


----------



## wrapped_in_plastic

righty nige i have at the moment
male anery (possible het lavender)
male amel stripe
and collecting from you a female lavender (not sure of hets but i'm sure you are)
what would i get from these, and i'm looking to add a couple more females what would you suggest?


----------



## intravenous

wrapped_in_plastic said:


> righty nige i have at the moment
> male anery (possible het lavender)
> male amel stripe
> and collecting from you a female lavender (not sure of hets but i'm sure you are)
> what would i get from these, and i'm looking to add a couple more females what would you suggest?


If the male anery is het lavender and you breed it to the female lavender you will get:
50% lavender het anery
50% normal het lavender, het anery

If the male anery is not het lavender then you will get:
100% normal het lavender, het anery

If you breed the male amel stripe to the female lavender you will get:
100% normal het lavender, het amel, het stripe


All of these are assuming that the female lavender has no hets. Hope that helps :smile:.


----------



## cornmorphs

sounds about right


----------



## JBJcool

this might have all ready been sed but im not reading 11 pages worth but

caroline dad-snow mum

amel dad-snow mum (think i saw this 1) thx


----------



## captaincaveman

JBJcool said:


> this might have all ready been sed but im not reading 11 pages worth but
> 
> caroline dad-snow mum
> 
> amel dad-snow mum (think i saw this 1) thx


the first one without knowing if they are het for anything, normal with snow would be:-

100% het snow


second, same without knowing if they are het for anything, amel with snow would be:-

100% amel het anery


----------



## JBJcool

time for teh noobest q ive eva asked whats het as in they have the genes for it? so if i breed a normal het snow and another normal het snow id get snows?


----------



## captaincaveman

JBJcool said:


> time for teh noobest q ive eva asked whats het as in they have the genes for it? so if i breed a normal het snow and another normal het snow id get snows?


you wouldn't get all snows

you'd get

normal, amel anerys and snows

think thats right


----------



## JBJcool

omg this genetic lark is well confusing oo this is prob gona really confuse me but amel and anery snow coz they would lack all pigment and norm coz thye would have all right? or rong and other hets?


----------



## Ssthisto

JBJcool said:


> time for teh noobest q ive eva asked whats het as in they have the genes for it? so if i breed a normal het snow and another normal het snow id get snows?


It's ok - once you understand het/homozygous traits, it gets easier. 

Genes come in pairs, and each pair is a trait.

A "homozygous" trait means that both genes of a pair are the same. 
A "heterozygous" or "het" trait means that the two genes are different.

So a "normal het snow" has the following genes:

1 copy of "Not Amelanistic" paired with 1 copy of "Amelanistic" (Looks not-amel)
and ALSO
1 copy of "not Anerythristic" paired with 1 copy of "Anerythristic" (Looks not-Anery)

This can be expressed as AaEe - where capital letters are the dominant "wild type" gene, and the lower-case letters are the recessive colour mutation genes.

If you cross a normal het snow to another normal het snow, you get the following results:

_AAEE, AaEE, AAEe, AaEe _ - these all look *normal *and may or may not be het for snow or the two components, Anery and Amel. 
_aaEe, aaEE_ - these are all *amelanistic*, and half of them are het Anery.
_AAee, Aaee_ - these are all *anerythristic*, and half of them are het Amel.
_aaee_ - this is *Snow*.


----------



## JBJcool

so its like luck of the draw sorta thing im starting or at least think im starting to get this thx that helped


----------



## Ssthisto

JBJcool said:


> so its like luck of the draw sorta thing im starting or at least think im starting to get this thx that helped


That's it exactly. If you imagine that Mom and Dad each have two possible genes to give for any pair (for a total of four possible traits) and you put a coloured marble into a sock to represent each gene (four marbles in total) ... then pull two marbles at random .... 

That's a lot like how the genes get determined in reality. Over a long enough time, you'll get a predictable proportion of offspring - but any ONE offspring is randomly generated


----------



## JBJcool

right im all ready to be a geneologist but first things first
1)do they even egsist? (4th spelling award today)
2)i need to know what all the corns are called
3)i still gota get a degree in this geneology stuff


----------



## Athravan

JBJcool said:


> 2)i need to know what all the corns are called


Take a look at this guide written by someone on the forums, sorry can't remember his username! 

Ians Vivarium - Corn Snake colour morph guide


----------



## Ssthisto

JBJcool said:


> right im all ready to be a geneologist but first things first
> 1)do they even egsist? (4th spelling award today)
> 2)i need to know what all the corns are called
> 3)i still gota get a degree in this geneology stuff


A Geneologist is something different to a Geneticist 

A geneologist researches family trees.
A geneticist researches genes and genomes.

As for working out what all the corns are called... good luck, there's new morphs and new combinations every year - and there are sometimes multiple names for the same genetic morph depending on what they look like (For example: Amelanistic, Reverse Okeetee, Sunglow and Candy Cane are all genetically amelanistic - but they have very different appearances!)


----------



## cryosi

If I where to buy a strawberry snow and a pewter, what would be the best option for diff morphs .

only have anery motley and amel at moment. 

What would you guys/gals pair them with ( not have to be what i have)


----------



## Ssthisto

Anery Motley: Anything carrying Motley or Stripe - you'll get 100% motleys and if you use a stripe, 100% motley het stripe; matching it with a granite, a ghost, or a coral snow would also be cool (100% anery het motley and whatever the other's visual morph is). A Snow Stripe would be a nice one - 100% Anery Motley het stripe and Amel - and if your Anery carries amel, you might get a couple of snow motley het stripe too.

Amel: I'd put that with a pewter personally, with an eye to producing visual normal hets for Whiteout (blizzard bloodred), Pewter, Fire, Charcoal, Blizzard, Amel and normals.

Pewter: I wouldn't personally pair it with anything carrying Caramel, but beyond that everything's probably fair game. My personal choice would be a Coral Snow. Visual normal hets for Coral Avalanche/Whiteout!

Depending on what you're calling a "strawberry" snow (is it homozygous hypo = coral snow, or is it just a selectively bred PINK snow?) ... well, it all depends on what you want to get.


----------



## cryosi

hi thanks for the heads up.

the Striped Strawberry Snow Female is on reptilekeping (bj herps website) so not sure what kind it is, maybe someone knows ?


----------



## cornmorphs

if you speak to jerry cole who owns the site he will be sure to give you any further info he has..


----------



## cryosi

cheers nigel was just browsing my emails looking for him.


----------



## JBJcool

motley does that mean they got dots? if so then im gona get.... (this may be wrong im still knew with genes)
100% normal motley het snow motley i think (normal corn+motley snow)


----------



## cornmorphs

normal motley to snow motley will give 100% normal motleys het snow.


----------



## Ssthisto

cryosi said:


> hi thanks for the heads up.
> 
> the Striped Strawberry Snow Female is on reptilekeping (bj herps website) so not sure what kind it is, maybe someone knows ?


I'd certainly put the Striped Snow female to an Anery Motley male 

100% Anery Motley het stripe and Amel - and maybe some Snow Motleys.


----------



## Lostcorn

Advice neede please.

Seeing as I have tried and failed to get a mate for my male butter.

What would be the best alternative and what offspring could I expect from the pairing?

thanks

John


----------



## cornmorphs

Lostcorn said:


> Advice neede please.
> 
> Seeing as I have tried and failed to get a mate for my male butter.
> 
> What would be the best alternative and what offspring could I expect from the pairing?
> 
> thanks
> 
> John


what do you have now mate male wise?


----------



## cornmorphs

Lostcorn said:


> Advice neede please.
> 
> Seeing as I have tried and failed to get a mate for my male butter.
> 
> What would be the best alternative and what offspring could I expect from the pairing?
> 
> thanks
> 
> John


sorry, females i ment


----------



## Lostcorn

Hi Nige

Amel het motley
Amel 
Anery
Normal het amel het anery
Snow
Miami

these are what we have that are old enough to breed.
If you remember we talked about putting the amel het motley with your ultramel male , I think it was

John


----------



## cornmorphs

Lostcorn said:


> Hi Nige
> 
> Amel het motley
> Amel
> Anery
> Normal het amel het anery
> Snow
> Miami
> 
> these are what we have that are old enough to breed.
> If you remember we talked about putting the amel het motley with your ultramel male , I think it was
> 
> John


i do remember mate, well he has only actually been with the one female, so if we can get him here then i'm up for that..
i'll pm you some details and see whats what


----------



## Lostcorn

Lostcorn said:


> Advice neede please.
> 
> Seeing as I have tried and failed to get a mate for my male butter.
> 
> What would be the best alternative and what offspring could I expect from the pairing?
> 
> thanks
> 
> John


 
Any ideas?


----------



## Ssthisto

If it were my butter and I had the females you listed, I'd be inclined to put him with either a snow or an amel-based morph, though neither of those is what I'd really want.

I'd personally be looking for an amel stripe or something similar - so that you get some nice amels who are guaranteed het for two traits, caramel and "whatever else".


----------



## dani11983

What would be the outcome of a Lavender het opal x striped snow corn?


----------



## intravenous

dani11983 said:


> What would be the outcome of a Lavender het opal x striped snow corn?


50% normal het amel, het lavender, het anery, het stripe
50% amel het lavender, het anery, het stripe


----------



## dani11983

intravenous said:


> 50% normal het amel, het lavender, het anery, het stripe
> 50% amel het lavender, het anery, het stripe


What would you get if you backcrossed these?

normal het amel, het lavender, het anery, het stripe X same
amel het lavender, het anery, het stripe X same

Thanks


----------



## Ssthisto

dani11983 said:


> What would you get if you backcrossed these?
> 
> normal het amel, het lavender, het anery, het stripe X same
> amel het lavender, het anery, het stripe X same
> 
> Thanks


Normal het amel, lavender, anery, stripe:

Normals, Amels, Lavenders, Anerys, Snows, Opals and Glaciers; Normal Stripes, Amel Stripes, Lavender Stripes, Anery Stripes, Snow Stripes, Opal Stripes and Glacier Stripes.

Amel het lavender, anery, stripe:

Amels, Snows, Opals and Glaciers; Amel Stripes, Snow Stripes, Opal Stripes and Glacier Stripes.

Of course, you'd get about double the number of any one SINGLE recessive than you'll get of any double recessive; you'll get about half to a quarter the number of triples as you do of the doubles, and if you get a glacier stripe, you're hitting a 1-in-256 or 1-in-512 (If my math's right this early in the morning) jackpot.


----------



## waycar8

ok i am new to this, dont the morphs, 








female









male

so my q is what are the morphs and what would the offspring be.


----------



## Ssthisto

The male is an Amelanistic (aaE*)
The female looks like probably Anerythristic. (A*ee)

The offspring, unless one or both are carrying hidden genes, are likely to be as following:

100% normal het for Amel and Anery. 

You won't get any unusual morphs unless they carry genes they're not showing - if you get any amels, you know your anery is het amel; if you get any anerys, you know your amel is het anery; if you get any snows, you know both of them are het for what the other one is.


----------



## waycar8

thanks, read this thread from the fist post to the last, and it went straight over my head :lol2: .


----------



## captaincaveman

waycar8 said:


> thanks, read this thread from the fist post to the last, and it went straight over my head :lol2: .


what that means is that the babies would look like normal corns but carry both those colours but not show them unless they are already carrying other hidden "colours"

hope thats easier to understand


----------



## waycar8

spot on. thanks

so a normal corn is a orange with red saddles with black outlines?

(thats the images i got from yahoo images)


then they (the offsring) will have Amelanistic and Anerythristic providing the parents dont have a gene thats not showing?


----------



## captaincaveman

waycar8 said:


> spot on. thanks
> 
> so a normal corn is a orange with red saddles with black outlines?
> 
> (thats the images i got from yahoo images)
> 
> 
> then they (the offsring) will have Amelanistic and Anerythristic providing the parents dont have a gene thats not showing?


 
normals are as you described with thinnish black outlines to saddles


well now thats when it get slightly confusing. you would get some anerys, some amels, some snows and some normals and some of them would be carrying the colours of others also(het for)eg some would be anery het amel, and some would be amel het anery etc etc

BUT if the original amel and anery were both carrying another "colour" then you would have that to mix in as well


eg if they were het caramel too, then you could have as above+butter and a mix of het and non het which would give potentially 27 combinations of colours and carriers of clours

hope thats made sense


----------



## waycar8

yes it does, thanks :no1: 

it makes sense when it gets pointed out rather than reading a paragraph from a web page lol.

will have to read up abit more and get the hang of the colour morphs lol

ok last question a bit off topic but....the snakes live in the same viv together, they wont breed on their own without the cooling period? will they??.

the reason why i ask is these will be my first snakes,(well actually i am getting them for my son) but we are both novices when it comes to snakes


----------



## Ssthisto

waycar8 said:


> ok last question a bit off topic but....the snakes live in the same viv together, they wont breed on their own without the cooling period? will they??.


Corn snakes need certain environmental conditions in order to breed. 

Those environmental conditions are as follows:

At least one male and at least one female are in the same vivarium.

Yes, they probably WILL breed.


----------



## intravenous

waycar8 said:


> yes it does, thanks :no1:
> 
> it makes sense when it gets pointed out rather than reading a paragraph from a web page lol.
> 
> will have to read up abit more and get the hang of the colour morphs lol
> 
> ok last question a bit off topic but....the snakes live in the same viv together, they wont breed on their own without the cooling period? will they??.
> 
> the reason why i ask is these will be my first snakes,(well actually i am getting them for my son) but we are both novices when it comes to snakes


Yes, its quite likely they will breed if kept in the same viv. They also might cannibalise each other...snakes are solitary creatures and aren't meant to be kept together. If you don't plan on breeding them this season then I would seriosly consider housing them separately.


----------



## captaincaveman

waycar8 said:


> yes it does, thanks :no1:
> 
> it makes sense when it gets pointed out rather than reading a paragraph from a web page lol.
> 
> will have to read up abit more and get the hang of the colour morphs lol
> 
> ok last question a bit off topic but....the snakes live in the same viv together, they wont breed on their own without the cooling period? will they.
> 
> the reason why i ask is these will be my first snakes,(well actually i am getting them for my son) but we are both novices when it comes to snake


 
Its best to keep them seperate for a number of reasons, firstly if they are not quite old enough, they can breed too early which isn't good for the female, also theres the risk if one snake gets ill its easier to pass stuff on, plus the fact if one regurges you wont know which one, whos bad poo etc etc

Something ive always noticed(but not 100% accurate with all) is some(and only some) dont seem to want to breed as easy if always together, the bringing together seems to stimulate them more, but like i say this is an occasional thing and not necesseraly a corn thing, just something ive noticed with some other snakes in other species


----------



## dani11983

Ssthisto said:


> Normal het amel, lavender, anery, stripe:
> 
> Normals, Amels, Lavenders, Anerys, Snows, Opals and Glaciers; Normal Stripes, Amel Stripes, Lavender Stripes, Anery Stripes, Snow Stripes, Opal Stripes and Glacier Stripes.
> 
> Amel het lavender, anery, stripe:
> 
> Amels, Snows, Opals and Glaciers; Amel Stripes, Snow Stripes, Opal Stripes and Glacier Stripes.
> 
> Of course, you'd get about double the number of any one SINGLE recessive than you'll get of any double recessive; you'll get about half to a quarter the number of triples as you do of the doubles, and if you get a glacier stripe, you're hitting a 1-in-256 or 1-in-512 (If my math's right this early in the morning) jackpot.


Thanks Ssthisto, never heard of a glacier. I asume they are rare.


----------



## Ssthisto

dani11983 said:


> Thanks Ssthisto, never heard of a glacier. I asume they are rare.


They're not amazingly common, no - they're also known as "Snopals" but I hate hate hate that name  

It can also be pretty difficult to tell a hatchling Glacier from a hatchling Snow.


----------



## intravenous

Ssthisto said:


> They're not amazingly common, no - they're also known as "Snopals" but I hate hate hate that name
> 
> It can also be pretty difficult to tell a hatchling Glacier from a hatchling Snow.


Ah, ok :razz: I was wondering. Is glacier the american name for them?


----------



## Ssthisto

intravenous said:


> Ah, ok :razz: I was wondering. Is glacier the american name for them?


Glacier is an alternative name for 'em - I've heard both used in the US. I picked up "Glacier" as my preferred morph name, because I don't like Snopal.

I also refuse to call Diffuse Lavenders "Plasma".


----------



## intravenous

Ssthisto said:


> Glacier is an alternative name for 'em - I've heard both used in the US. I picked up "Glacier" as my preferred morph name, because I don't like Snopal.
> 
> I also refuse to call Diffuse Lavenders "Plasma".


How come? Any particular reason for not using them? ALso...who actually decided the morph names :roll:, the original breeder?


----------



## Ssthisto

intravenous said:


> How come? Any particular reason for not using them? ALso...who actually decided the morph names :roll:, the original breeder?


I just don't like the name Plasma (it makes me think "straw yellow blood product" not "purple snake") ... if I'm going to call Lavender Bloodreds anything, it's going to be a colour descriptive like *Amethyst* ... which also fits the Granite / Pewter / Sulfur sort of geological theme.

And no, the original discoverer of a trait doesn't always get to name it - "Lavender" being a case in point. Rich Zuchowski named the original animals "Mocha" based on their hatchling appearance (often quite brown) ... but it was "Lavender" that stuck.


----------



## intravenous

Ssthisto said:


> I just don't like the name Plasma (it makes me think "straw yellow blood product" not "purple snake") ... if I'm going to call Lavender Bloodreds anything, it's going to be a colour descriptive like *Amethyst* ... which also fits the Granite / Pewter / Sulfur sort of geological theme.
> 
> And no, the original discoverer of a trait doesn't always get to name it - "Lavender" being a case in point. Rich Zuchowski named the original animals "Mocha" based on their hatchling appearance (often quite brown) ... but it was "Lavender" that stuck.


Fair enough...and yuhuh, amethyst would be a good name :smile:.


----------



## dani11983

*hypo bloodred x hypo lavender 1st and 2nd generation*

What would you be likely to get from 1st gen cross of these two morphs and 2nd gen?

Thanks


----------



## captaincaveman

Ssthisto said:


> I just don't like the name Plasma (it makes me think "straw yellow blood product" not "purple snake") ... if I'm going to call Lavender Bloodreds anything, it's going to be a colour descriptive like *Amethyst* ... which also fits the Granite / Pewter / Sulfur sort of geological theme.
> 
> And no, the original discoverer of a trait doesn't always get to name it - "Lavender" being a case in point. Rich Zuchowski named the original animals "Mocha" based on their hatchling appearance (often quite brown) ... but it was "Lavender" that stuck.


 
i always thought that mocha was used to describe one of the two colours of lavender, and that there is still discussions to wether its sex linked or not


----------



## Athravan

My request  Can't get my head around corn morphs anymore except the basic ones.

Female: Amel het Charcoal
Male: Phantom

What would I get from the offspring?

And what would I get from the 2nd generation?

Thanks!


----------



## Ssthisto

Amel het charcoal X Charcoal Hypo (Phantom) =

50% Charcoal het amel and hypo
50% Normal het charcoal, amel and hypo.

In your second generation, you've got the chance of getting normals, blizzards, phantoms, charcoals, amels, hypos, hypo blizzards ... depending on which offspring you chose to breed together.


----------



## Athravan

Ssthisto said:


> Amel het charcoal X Charcoal Hypo (Phantom) =
> 
> 50% Charcoal het amel and hypo
> 50% Normal het charcoal, amel and hypo.
> 
> In your second generation, you've got the chance of getting normals, blizzards, phantoms, charcoals, amels, hypos, hypo blizzards ... depending on which offspring you chose to breed together.


Thanks  First clutch on a medium sized but adequately weighted 3 year old female so expecting a small clutch.. think i'll keep most of the charcoals back for future projects.


----------



## cornmorphs

Athravan said:


> Thanks  First clutch on a medium sized but adequately weighted 3 year old female so expecting a small clutch.. think i'll keep most of the charcoals back for future projects.


always good to have hold back projects


----------



## 1949_sam

*Hello what would you get from these?*

*Mum*






 

*Dad*






 
*I'm thinking about buying a hatchling from the breeder and wondered what the hatchlings would be?*​ 

*Heres one of the hatchlings*






 
*Thanks Sam x*​


----------



## boabloketony

Hello everyone,

Only just come across this thread and it's really useful, 

Here is a list of the corns I own:

Males

Green Blotch Snow
Anerythristic het Pastel Motley

Females

Normal
Amel
Miami

Some of the above are not quite old enough to breed but I'd like to know which snakes to pair up to get the best morphs? It's something that would be really helpful for future breeding.

Unfortunately I don't know any of the hets (apart from the male anery) 

Which would be the best pairs? : victory:


----------



## intravenous

1949_sam said:


> *Hello what would you get from these?*
> 
> *Mum*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Dad*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I'm thinking about buying a hatchling from the breeder and wondered what the hatchlings would be?*​


From Welcome to CORNSNAKE.CO.UK? She annoys me because she doesn't keep track of the genetics :roll:. You can't know for sure what they are from just looking but my guess would be mum is a blizzard (charcoal amel) and dad looks like a charcoal or anery (sorry, I'm not very good at telling the two apart but someone else may be able to tell). The baby looks like an amel which would mean the dad is het amel.

If dad is charcoal then the baby is probably amel het charcoal

If the dad is anery then the baby is probably amel het charcoal and anery

Since she doesn't keep track it could have other hidden hets as well.


----------



## intravenous

boaboytony5 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Only just come across this thread and it's really useful,
> 
> Here is a list of the corns I own:
> 
> Males
> 
> Green Blotch Snow
> Anerythristic het Pastel Motley
> 
> Females
> 
> Normal
> Amel
> Miami
> 
> Some of the above are not quite old enough to breed but I'd like to know which snakes to pair up to get the best morphs? It's something that would be really helpful for future breeding.
> 
> Unfortunately I don't know any of the hets (apart from the male anery)
> 
> Which would be the best pairs? : victory:


Both normal and miami are just versions of normal so they aren't morphs. It is quite likely that they could have hets though and since anery and amel are the most common morphs there is a reasonable chance that if they have hets, it will be for those. I would breed the snow (i.e. an amel anery) to both your normals to test for hets.

I would probably also breed the snow to the amel because thats the only way you'll get definite visual morphs (all the babies will be amel, het anery) and at least this way you will also be testing the amel to see if shes het anery.


----------



## 1949_sam

intravenous said:


> From Welcome to CORNSNAKE.CO.UK? She annoys me because she doesn't keep track of the genetics :roll:. You can't know for sure what they are from just looking but my guess would be mum is a blizzard (charcoal amel) and dad looks like a charcoal or anery (sorry, I'm not very good at telling the two apart but someone else may be able to tell). The baby looks like an amel which would mean the dad is het amel.
> 
> If dad is charcoal then the baby is probably amel het charcoal
> 
> If the dad is anery then the baby is probably amel het charcoal and anery
> 
> Since she doesn't keep track it could have other hidden hets as well.


*Oh right ok thanks :smile: i bought a snow from her and as she only has one female snow and thats not the mum to my baby i have know idea what she has in her and i was going to breed her to a snow but i have no idea what that will give me lol sorry i'm no good with all this, i think i'll get all snows?*


----------



## boabloketony

Thanks intravenous : victory:


----------



## intravenous

1949_sam said:


> *Oh right ok thanks :smile: i bought a snow from her and as she only has one female snow and thats not the mum to my baby i have know idea what she has in her and i was going to breed her to a snow but i have no idea what that will give me lol sorry i'm no good with all this, i think i'll get all snows?*


If you bred a snow to that amel baby? If the dad shown there is charcoal (and there isnt a hidden anery het from somewhere else) then no, you would get amels het anery and charcoal.

If the dad shown there is anery then yes, you'd get 50% snows, 50% amels het anery both which would be 50% het charcoal.


----------



## boabloketony

This is gonna sound quite stupid but I'm gonna say it anyway :lol2:

I got the male Anerythristic het Pastel Motley as a breeder, Pastel Motley's are my favourite morph followed by snows;

I was wondering what I'd need to do to get pastel motley's and snows,

I'm assuming that:

Anery (het Pastel motley) x Amel = Snows (with 25% het for Pastel Motley)

Not sure if that's correct, I'm new to this !!! 

If I bought an Amel Motley would it go like this?

Anery (het Pastel Motley) x Amel Motley = Snow Motley?

At the end of the day I'd like snows and pastel motleys and don't mind buying another snake or two to breed with what I already have to produce these morphs, just needs to know which to buy.

Thanks in advance


----------



## intravenous

boaboytony5 said:


> This is gonna sound quite stupid but I'm gonna say it anyway :lol2:
> 
> I got the male Anerythristic het Pastel Motley as a breeder, Pastel Motley's are my favourite morph followed by snows;
> 
> I was wondering what I'd need to do to get pastel motley's and snows,
> 
> I'm assuming that:
> 
> Anery (het Pastel motley) x Amel = Snows (with 25% het for Pastel Motley)
> 
> Not sure if that's correct, I'm new to this !!!
> 
> If I bought an Amel Motley would it go like this?
> 
> Anery (het Pastel Motley) x Amel Motley = Snow Motley?
> 
> At the end of the day I'd like snows and pastel motleys and don't mind buying another snake or two to breed with what I already have to produce these morphs, just needs to know which to buy.
> 
> Thanks in advance


I'm afraid not :razz:, both parents need to be carrying the gene so:

anery het pastel motley x amel = 
100% normal het anery, het amel, 50% het pastel motley

anery het pastel motley x amel motley = 
50% motley het amel, het anery with 50% het hypo
50% normal het motley, amel, and anery with 50% het hypo

If you want pastel motleys you would have to get a female that had anery, hypo and motley all in the same snake and then breed that to your anery het pastel motley.

If you want snows then you'd have to get a female that had both amel and anery in the same snake. I would give your female amel a chance though incase she is het for anery.


----------



## intravenous

If I were you I would have two breeding plans:

1. Snow male x amel female

That could be your snow project to see if the amel is het anery (if she isn't it won't be too hard to get an amel that is het anery later). Whilst you're at it I would test your normal females for hets in amel and anery too.

2. Anery het pastel motley male x ?

Here look for a female that has anery, hypo and motley. Some examples:

ghost motley
ghost het motley
anery motley het hypo
anery het hypo and motley
hypo motley het anery
hypo het anery and motley

Any of those would do :smile: (a normal het anery, hypo and motley would also do but it would lower your odds quite a bit of getting a pastel motley).


----------



## boabloketony

Thanks again mate, you really know your stuff : victory:

Did you catch on to this genetics stuff straight away, it's taking me ages to catch on !!!


----------



## intravenous

boaboytony5 said:


> Thanks again mate, you really know your stuff : victory:
> 
> Did you catch on to this genetics stuff straight away, it's taking me ages to catch on !!!


I cheated :razz:, I'm going into third year of genetics at university so I have an advantage.


----------



## boabloketony

:lol2: That makes you an assett to the forum !!! 

I'm just gonna buy a bloody Pasel Motley, it's easier :lol2:

I've already crossed the snow to a normal female and also the amel female, all eggs in the incubator, lets hope there's some hidden hets in there, may get a snow afterall from the amel !!!


----------



## cornmorphs

doesnt look like a corn to me hun, the bottom one


----------



## intravenous

cornmorphs said:


> doesnt look like a corn to me hun, the bottom one


To *1949_sam*'s "dad" picture? I thought it was very dark for an anery or charcoal but assumed that was me just not knowing exactly how they should look :razz:.

I would have thought Angel Fox would have at least got her species right though :?.


----------



## cornmorphs

well it might well be right... but from what i see i a not 100% thats it is a corn, infact i'm close to 0%.. although i might be wrong.


----------



## 1949_sam

cornmorphs said:


> well it might well be right... but from what i see i a not 100% thats it is a corn, infact i'm close to 0%.. although i might be wrong.


*Witch one? The hatchling or the dad?*


----------



## 1949_sam

*This is what i have now and will breed in a few years time just thought i'd ask now so i can wright it all down now lol*

*Females*

*Amel*
*Ghost*
*Snow (from angel fox)*
*Anery Stripe*
*Normal Hypo*
*Butter*

*Males*

*Amel*
*Snow*
*Anery Het Snow Motley (from nerys)*
*Normal (looks hypo aztac)*


*And this is what i'm hopefully getting*

*Females*

*Anery motley*
*Hypo Lavender*
*Lavender Het Motley*
*Reverse Okeetee*
*Opel*
*Bloodred *

*Males*

*Anery Stripe*
*Hypo Lavender*
*Butter*


*Some of the above could be male as some are coming from Patrick Doran as they are being inported he'll let me know the right sexes....Or i can repost this when i have them....*

*Thanks Sam*


----------



## boabloketony

You've got a great collection Sam, how old are they all? Got any that are already adults?


----------



## 1949_sam

boaboytony5 said:


> You've got a great collection Sam, how old are they all? Got any that are already adults?


*Adults? Only a pair of amels  but they grow quick :mf_dribble:*


----------



## boabloketony

I bet you can't wait, all those breeders :mf_dribble:

Shame your Snow Female's not an adult, you could have borrowed my proven male Green Blotch Snow !!!


----------



## 1949_sam

boaboytony5 said:


> I bet you can't wait, all those breeders :mf_dribble:
> 
> Shame your Snow Female's not an adult, you could have borrowed my proven male Green Blotch Snow !!!


*I know i really can't wait :mf_dribble:and yea my snow is a small one as she was a problem feeder  but she's getting there and a green blotch snow :mf_dribble::mf_dribble:*


----------



## Ssthisto

boaboytony5 said:


> This is gonna sound quite stupid but I'm gonna say it anyway :lol2:
> 
> I got the male Anerythristic het Pastel Motley as a breeder, Pastel Motley's are my favourite morph followed by snows;
> 
> I was wondering what I'd need to do to get pastel motley's and snows


Well.... there's actually NO guarantee you'll get "pastel" Ghost Motleys at all.

"Pastel" is a selectively bred appearance of Ghost (i.e. Hypo Anery).

You're more likely to get pastel-ish Ghost motleys than if you had just ghost in the mix, but there you are. 

If you want a reasonable chance of pastel-looking Ghost motleys, I'd buy a Ghost het motley or Ghost Motley female. 

As for the snows, breed your green-blotch Snow to your amel; there's a reasonable chance she's het for anery (since so many corns ARE het for either Amel, Anery or both) and you might get snows in the first generation; otherwise, you could breed one of the Amel offspring to the Snow and get snows in the second.


----------



## Athravan

I bought a corn today that the man described as charcoal, but when I probed to the breeding history, he said he always called it charcoal but didn't know what it was.

The mother was an Anery (A) and the father was an Anery (B) Charcoal

Now if this was the case, surely it would be a normal looking snake, het for those.

However what I have is an anery that's got quite a bit of brown on the black instead of straight black - almost like a bit of caramel, but no where near as much colouration. Doesn't look like anery, or charcoal, and definitely not normal...

I suppose I'm going to have to find a way to take a nice picture... hard to get enough light in my house and too wet outside atm.

But is there anything that mixing the Anery A+B genes does that would make him look like a caramel style anery?


----------



## Ssthisto

The first known charcoal female was ALSO het Anery.

Your snake is almost certainly an Anery het charcoal, but then again... you do get homozygous charcoal-anery too. I suspect that is what Flint is:










Though she has more lavender-purple than brown, TBH.

And lots of Anery wind up being brown rather than black-black anyway... especially males.


----------



## Athravan

Yeah.. mine looks no where near as beautiful as that 

So my new question...

I have an amel het charcoal 
If i assume this new one is anery het charcoal...

Am I going to get some charcoal het for snow in there?

Is it possible to mix anery a and b like that, and get charcoal het for snow?

Because then surely, breeding 2 of those offspring in the next generation would give me a Anery A, B and Amel - ie. a Charcoal Snow. Is that how I make blizzard?


----------



## Ssthisto

Yes, you'll get about 25% charcoals het amel and anery (and normals het amel and anery, possible het charcoal).... but you might also get anery het amel poss het charcoal if your Amel is also hiding an anery het.... which is not entirely unlikely.

And blizzard is Charcoal + Amel, so you don't need the Anery in there... Charcoal Snow ("Snizzard" ? "Blizzow"?) might be difficult to tell the difference between that and a Snow or a Blizzard.


----------



## daniels.o

k, i have a normal het anery (almost certain, just waiting to see how the offspring's colours to come out) female, and a snow male i am thinking of swapping the male... could you tell me which morph i should swich the male for to get the best phenotypes off the female.. i dont really mind about hets just the phenotype.. hope you understand what i am going on about:lol2:


----------



## intravenous

daniels.o said:


> k, i have a normal het anery (almost certain, just waiting to see how the offspring's colours to come out) female, and a snow male i am thinking of swapping the male... could you tell me which morph i should swich the male for to get the best phenotypes off the female.. i dont really mind about hets just the phenotype.. hope you understand what i am going on about:lol2:


The snow probably is the best thing you can get out of that female...all that female can produce (phenotypically) is anerys and normals.

Breeding to a snow would produce both.


----------



## daniels.o

yep, thats what i found out when i bred them... but what i was wondering was which morph would produce some cool variations if i bred it to my female.,,,,


----------



## intravenous

daniels.o said:


> yep, thats what i found out when i bred them... but what i was wondering was which morph would produce some cool variations if i bred it to my female.,,,,


None, because all she can produce is anery and normal. Unless you are talking about what you can do with her offspring then thats it I'm afraid.


----------



## daniels.o

oh.. okay.. thanks, so i would just be getting different hets with other morphs... thanks again


----------



## intravenous

daniels.o said:


> oh.. okay.. thanks, so i would just be getting different hets with other morphs... thanks again


Yup...you could get loads of hets in the offspring, but no more visual things.


----------



## Lostcorn

*Butter to Snow*

If I was to mate a butter with a snow , would the offspring be butters and 
snows?

John


----------



## Ssthisto

Nope.

Butter is Amelanistic Caramel.
Snow is Amelanistic Anerythristic.

Therefore:

Butter X Snow = 100% Amel het Caramel and Anery.

If you get anything else (snow's the most likely) then you know that one of the parents was het for something you didn't know about!


----------



## Matt_Wall

What about snow to normal please?


----------



## captaincaveman

Matt_Wall said:


> What about snow to normal please?


 
normals het snow:no1: unless normals het for amel or anery


----------



## Matt_Wall

captaincaveman said:


> normals het snow:no1: unless normals het for amel or anery


 
ooooooooo a mystery bag :lol2:


----------



## captaincaveman

Matt_Wall said:


> ooooooooo a mystery bag :lol2:


 
yeah, thats the thing with hets, they can always throw up suprises, but amel and anery are common hets, and if the normals het anery and amel you'll get some snows:no1:


----------



## Matt_Wall

captaincaveman said:


> yeah, thats the thing with hets, they can always throw up suprises, but amel and anery are common hets, and if the normals het anery and amel you'll get some snows:no1:


ooo, this'll be interesting! Thanks.


----------



## asnakecalled?

ok heres a question i cant get my head around (must lern more about genetics) 
ok so if i bread a male amber to a female normal het amel, caramel and butter i should get caramels but will i get any think els and will any hets be carried foward ?


----------



## captaincaveman

asnakecalled? said:


> ok heres a question i cant get my head around (must lern more about genetics)
> ok so if i bread a male amber to a female normal het amel, caramel and butter i should get caramels but will i get any think els and will any hets be carried foward ?


 
you can be het amel, caramel and butter(as butter is amel and caramel)

but amber to normal het butter(amel and caramel) will give

25% caramel het amel, het hypo
25% caramel het hypo
25% het butter het hypo
25% het amber


----------



## asnakecalled?

thanks for that i realy should read more on genetics, do you know any good sites


----------



## captaincaveman

asnakecalled? said:


> thanks for that i realy should read more on genetics, do you know any good sites


 
theres a few sites about, but i haven't got them bookmarked, get a copy of the cornsnake morph guide, its avaliable from the states is really cheap including delivery and mine took a week to get here


----------



## asnakecalled?

ive got one on order from my local book shop


----------



## captaincaveman

asnakecalled? said:


> ive got one on order from my local book shop


 
its a good book, i got the 2005, 2006 and 2007:lol2:


----------



## asnakecalled?

yes im getting the 2005 one i cant find any more for sale, it should help me for now


----------



## wrapped_in_plastic

ok this is probably a REALLY simple one for you guys, i have a male anery het hypo, stripe and lavender, and a female lavender het motley (from wonderful nige ) what would i get from these (not for awhile yet but just interested) also what female/s would be a benificial buy in respect to future mating?
thanx guys


----------



## Ssthisto

wrapped_in_plastic said:


> ok this is probably a REALLY simple one for you guys, i have a male anery het hypo, stripe and lavender, and a female lavender het motley (from wonderful nige ) what would i get from these (not for awhile yet but just interested) also what female/s would be a benificial buy in respect to future mating?
> thanx guys


Anery het hypo, stripe and lavender to a lavender het motley would produce you:

37.5% Normal het lavender, anery, possible het hypo, possible het Motley OR stripe but not both
12.5% motley het stripe, lavender and anery, possible het hypo
37.5% lavender het anery, possible het hypo, possible het motley OR stripe but not both
12.5% lavender motley het stripe

I personally would buy a female who is het lavender and stripe, maybe het lavender, stripe and amel (to see if the Anery is possibly het amel - it's a fair chance).


----------



## wrapped_in_plastic

ignore that lol being a bit special today


----------



## 1949_sam

Hi everyone my eggs are due to hatch around the 25 july, laid 30.05.07 mum was an amel R.I.P Dasiy and dad is an amel so i should get all amels but i have no idea if there are any hidden hets, could someone please tell me if i get any snows, anerys then what they must be het for? I think if both are het anery then i'll 50% anerys 50% amels could be wrong, but not sure on the snow part?


More eggs due in august from amel mum and hypo dad so shoud they all be normals?

Many thanks 

Sam


----------



## intravenous

1949_sam said:


> Hi everyone my eggs are due to hatch around the 25 july, laid 30.05.07 mum was an amel R.I.P Dasiy and dad is an amel so i should get all amels but i have no idea if there are any hidden hets, could someone please tell me if i get any snows, anerys then what they must be het for? I think if both are het anery then i'll 50% anerys 50% amels could be wrong, but not sure on the snow part?
> 
> 
> More eggs due in august from amel mum and hypo dad so shoud they all be normals?
> 
> Many thanks
> 
> Sam


All the babies will definitely have amel in them.

If there are no hets then you will get 100% amels

If they are both het anery then you will get 25% amel, 50% amel het anery and 25% snow (amel +anery)


----------



## 1949_sam

intravenous said:


> All the babies will definitely have amel in them.
> 
> If there are no hets then you will get 100% amels
> 
> If they are both het anery then you will get 25% amel, 50% amel het anery and 25% snow (amel +anery)


Thanks i just can't wait hehe, so was i right with these eggs amel mum and hypo dad so shoud they all be normals? And will they have any hets in them?

Thanks again


----------



## intravenous

1949_sam said:


> Thanks i just can't wait hehe, so was i right with these eggs amel mum and hypo dad so shoud they all be normals? And will they have any hets in them?
> 
> Thanks again


Assuming there are no hets then amel x hypo would give 100% normals het amel and hypo.


----------



## 1949_sam

intravenous said:


> Assuming there are no hets then amel x hypo would give 100% normals het amel and hypo.


Your a star x thank you so much wish i was as good at it as you :lol2:

With the other eggs amel to amel if they are both het anery then how will i know witch ones as in amels are het and what would i sell them as? God i hope there all amels lol

25% amel, 50% amel het anery and 25% snow (amel +anery)

Sorry i know i'm a pain  your a great big help x x


----------



## intravenous

1949_sam said:


> With the other eggs amel to amel if they are both het anery then how will i know witch ones as in amels are het and what would i sell them as? God i hope there all amels lol


You can't tell I'm afraid.

The amels, and the amels het anery would look the same so you would sell all the ones that look like amels as amels 66% het anery


----------



## 1949_sam

intravenous said:


> You can't tell I'm afraid.
> 
> The amels, and the amels het anery would look the same so you would sell all the ones that look like amels as amels 66% het anery


Right thanks i've got it now (i think lol) but i've saved it in my mobile for now. Yea a het is hidden so you can't see it i know that much lol

Would the snows just be snows or het something?

Thanks again 

Sam x


----------



## bosshogg

i'm getting a new trio of mice at the end of the month i am getting

female butter
femal amel het for carmal
male hypo het for butter

when there are ready to breed what would be best to brred to them i also have the following snakes

snow x 2
amel x 2
ghost stripe
amel motley
normal het blizard x2
anery
normal het amel stripe and snow

and what would i get??


----------



## sparkle

OK someone just asked me this on msn....




*what i dont get is 
*just Alan says:
*if the ultramel has the ultra gene and the amel gene why when you put the anery gene in does it still retain colour

?????
*


----------



## cornmorphs

sparkle said:


> OK someone just asked me this on msn....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *what i dont get is *
> just Alan says:
> *if the ultramel has the ultra gene and the amel gene why when you put the anery gene in does it still retain colour*
> 
> *?????*


what colour is it he is refering to ?


----------



## sparkle

ive forgotten the convo now...

u were too busy with all your other important stuff :Na_Na_Na_Na: 
and im too stupid to have a memory... :lol2:


----------



## Ssthisto

sparkle said:


> OK someone just asked me this on msn....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *what i dont get is *
> just Alan says:
> *if the ultramel has the ultra gene and the amel gene why when you put the anery gene in does it still retain colour*
> 
> *?????*


Because "Ultra" dilutes black but does not remove it completely. 
Amel removes black if it's homozygous, but in heterozygous state combined with Ultra, you have 'extra diluted' black - but the snake can still produce SOME black pigment.

When you put in Anery, you're just removing the yellow and red.


----------



## Ssthisto

bosshogg said:


> i'm getting a new trio of mice at the end of the month i am getting
> 
> female butter
> femal amel het for carmal
> male hypo het for butter
> 
> when there are ready to breed what would be best to brred to them i also have the following snakes


I'd breed these guys together - you'd get:

*Hypo het amel, caramel X Butter* = 

25% normal het hypo, amel, caramel
25% amel het hypo caramel
25% caramel het hypo amel
25% butter het hypo

*Hypo het amel, caramel X Amel het caramel =*

37.5% Normal het amel, hypo, possible het caramel
37.5% Amel het hypo, possible het caramel
12.5% Caramel het hypo amel
12.5% Butter het hypo






> snow x 2
> amel x 2
> ghost stripe
> amel motley
> normal het blizard x2
> anery
> normal het amel stripe and snow
> 
> and what would i get??


Depending on what your Ghost Stripe, Amel Motley and Normal het stripe and snow are, genderwise, I'd put them together - ghost stripe to amel motley would make 100% motley het stripes who are also het coral snow.


----------



## cornmorphs

thank god you're here babe :lol2:


----------



## kennedykrew

QUOTE BOSSHOG..... i'm getting a new trio of mice at the end of the month i am getting

female butter
femal amel het for carmal
male hypo het for butter

when there are ready to breed what would be best to brred to them i also have the following snakes. END QUOTE.
Are you breeding mice or corns????:lol2:


----------



## Ssthisto

cornmorphs said:


> thank god you're here babe :lol2:


*laugh* I've been away for three days doing reptile-related school presentations - some of which did in fact deal briefly with colour genetics. Try explaining "Patternless" and "Charcoal" to eight-year-olds sometime!

That said, two full days of being on my feet "on show" with my partner and some of our critters is exhausting! I'll check back and see if there's any other questions that need the Ssthisto touch


----------



## sparkle

what might be the outcome from.. the following corn cross

pastel motely ( ghost i think) x lavender het motely het hypo


----------



## toyah

sparkle said:


> what might be the outcome from.. the following corn cross
> 
> pastel motely ( ghost i think) x lavender het motely het hypo


Pastel motley does normally refer to a selectively bred ghost. So pastel motley = anery hypo motley

Would give you:

25% normal het anery, hypo, motley, lavender
25% motley het anery, hypo, lavender
25% hypo het anery, lavender, motley
25% hypo motley het anery, lavender


----------



## sparkle

thanks xx


----------



## bosshogg

kennedykrew said:


> QUOTE BOSSHOG..... i'm getting a new trio of mice at the end of the month i am getting
> 
> female butter
> femal amel het for carmal
> male hypo het for butter
> 
> when there are ready to breed what would be best to brred to them i also have the following snakes. END QUOTE.
> Are you breeding mice or corns????:lol2:


doh i meant corns must have been thiking about my mice pairing i was seting up at the time!!!!

just reloaded the corn gentc programmes so no more long winded question lol

clare

p.s thanks sshtisto:no1:


----------



## Ssthisto

1949_sam said:


> Right thanks i've got it now (i think lol) but i've saved it in my mobile for now. Yea a het is hidden so you can't see it i know that much lol
> 
> Would the snows just be snows or het something?


Out of an Amel het anery X Amel het anery cross, any snows you get are just snows 

And Bosshogg:

I'm sure my snakes would love you to bits if you had actually obtained a trio of Butter / het Butter Mice  Mmm, little balls of fuzzy fat!

I suppose Fawn/Red are essentially the equivalent given their genetic predisposition to obesity


----------



## bosshogg

Ssthisto said:


> Out of an Amel het anery X Amel het anery cross, any snows you get are just snows
> 
> And Bosshogg:
> 
> I'm sure my snakes would love you to bits if you had actually obtained a trio of Butter / het Butter Mice  Mmm, little balls of fuzzy fat!
> 
> I suppose Fawn/Red are essentially the equivalent given their genetic predisposition to obesity


well i do have that argente creme :lol2:


----------



## matty

ok it wont be for aaaggggeees as its only a month old lmao..but ive just got a snow, what could i put with it to get some pretty cool morphs? or will i need to invest in something a little more upmarket lol


----------



## cornmorphs

well as visuals, you wont get too much thats going to be rare in the 1st clutch.
if you have time you can buy a rarer partner and then breed... keep back some babies and then put them back to each other when they are adults. you might get a rarer one or two that way.
i would go for something like an amel het anery.. that way you will get amel, anery, snow... probably anyway


----------



## 1949_sam

Ssthisto said:


> *Out of an Amel het anery X Amel het anery* *cross, any snows you get are just snows*
> 
> And Bosshogg:
> 
> I'm sure my snakes would love you to bits if you had actually obtained a trio of Butter / het Butter Mice  Mmm, little balls of fuzzy fat!
> 
> I suppose Fawn/Red are essentially the equivalent given their genetic predisposition to obesity


Thanks Ssthisto :no1:


----------



## animalfreak

We bred a snow corn with a butter .
the hatchlings are pale orange what are they likely to be


----------



## Ssthisto

They're almost certainly Amel het Anery and Caramel.


----------



## sparkle

what would these be likely to be

lavender x amber

hypo lavender x caramel

is the 2nd one called topaz ??


----------



## Ssthisto

sparkle said:


> what would these be likely to be
> 
> lavender x amber
> hypo lavender x caramel
> 
> is the 2nd one called topaz ??


Lavender X Amber would = Normal het hypo, caramel, lavender. 

At the moment there's someone TRYING to call the F2 visual Lavender Ambers "Peach" but they have not yet proven out the genetics of the animals they have hatched out, nor even seen what the adults look like.

Hypo Lav X Caramel is just another way of saying the same thing - both would be homozygous Hypo, Lavender, Caramel. 

"Topaz" is the proposed trade name for a Lava Caramel.


----------



## Alans_Reptiles

this isnt raly a genetics question but here goes.
is there any where i can fond out or could u give me a list of corn morphs explaning what is ressesive co-dom and dom and is there any differance in the homozygous and hetrozygous froms of any co-dom morphs


----------



## Ssthisto

Alans_Reptiles said:


> this isnt raly a genetics question but here goes.
> is there any where i can fond out or could u give me a list of corn morphs explaning what is ressesive co-dom and dom and is there any differance in the homozygous and hetrozygous froms of any co-dom morphs


You're probably best looking at Eeji's Corn Morph Guide for a list of corn morphs unless you want to buy the Corn Snake Morph Guide 2007 from Charles "Serpwidgets" Pritzel.

So far, nearly all the morphs in corns appear to be simple recessive to wildtype. 

Bloodred is the exception - you get "visual hets" which implies that this is in fact an incomplete dominant gene. A het bloodred often (but not always) shows the "zipper" belly markings and can have odd head patterning.

Ultra is allelic to and incompletely dominant with Amel - a snake with one copy of each appears different to a snake with two copies of one or the other, but both Ultra and Amel are recessive to "Not ultra-or-amel"

Stripe is recessive to motley; Motley is recessive to "not motley or stripe". A Motley het stripe can range from looking like a "ribbon" or "zipper" stripey motley to looking like a hurricane motley - just the same as a homozygous motley can. 

Does that help?


----------



## matty

cornmorphs said:


> well as visuals, you wont get too much thats going to be rare in the 1st clutch.
> if you have time you can buy a rarer partner and then breed... keep back some babies and then put them back to each other when they are adults. you might get a rarer one or two that way.
> i would go for something like an amel het anery.. that way you will get amel, anery, snow... probably anyway


 
ok thanks alot


----------



## Ssthisto

Putting an amel het anery to a snow will get about half amels and half snows - you can't get any non-amel offspring out of that pair.

If you want a "rainbow" clutch a normal het snow would produce about equal portions normals, amels, anerys and snows (over a large number of eggs, that is!) ... but I'd personally put the snow to something else too. Something that would produce some nice multi hets to create even more in the second generation


----------



## Montage_Morphs

Alans_Reptiles said:


> this isnt raly a genetics question but here goes.
> is there any where i can fond out or could u give me a list of corn morphs explaning what is ressesive co-dom and dom and is there any differance in the homozygous and hetrozygous froms of any co-dom morphs


All corn morphs are simple recessive, except for ultra, it is codominant to amel on the same locus. 

Also, sometimes hets can be "visual". Ie het for caramel animals sometimes show a high amount of yellow. I have also seen het for stripe/motley animals with some striping down their sides. 

The only way to really know what an animal is het for is to test breed to KNOWN carriers of whatever you are trying to prove out.


----------



## Lostcorn

*OK*

OK

I put our male butter with an amel female , no known hets for either.
The hatchlings are all visually amel.

What would be the best way to describe them if I offer them for sale?

I mean amel het for??????? 25% , 66%?

regards

John


----------



## Ssthisto

Amel het caramel.

Mum's an Amel, Dad's a Caramel Amel, so every baby HAS to be het for caramel and visually amel.


----------



## Lostcorn

LOL this genetics stuff must be finally getting through my thick skull.

Thats what I thought

Thanks

John


----------



## markhill

Greenspot snow x Hypo Motley ghost?


----------



## captaincaveman

snow to ghost motley will give

anerys het amel, hypo and motley, unless other hets com into play


----------



## markhill

ok, I have a greenspot snowcorn, male
I'm looking for a morph to breed him to, I've found some and need to know what i'd get, so what would I get from these.
Pewter het Hypo
snow motley
blizzard
anery striped motley
butter motley
and bloodred
these are just ones i've found and like the look of, any of these *not* worth bothering with?
and any suggestions for others.


----------



## cornmorphs

to the snow mot you would get snows, to the rest you would get normal het for whatever it is , unless there are hidden hets.


----------



## sparkle

what happens if you breed an ultramel to a geat plains rat snake.... is it a paler creamsicle maybe???


----------



## boabloketony

I'm asking for a friend; they have a normal corn het snow and want to breed it to a blizzard corn. I was wondering what babies this would throw out? Any help would be greatly appreciated :no1:

Thanks in advance


----------



## cornmorphs

normals and amels


----------



## boabloketony

how come? if it was a normal het snow x snow isn't 75% of the clutch gonna be snows? Blizzards are white too, I'm confused, would you mind explaining it to me? sorry, don't know the first thing about genetics


----------



## cornmorphs

sorry i miss read i think
you would get amels, the odd snow, normals.. you MIGHT get some anery looking animals but i doubt it.


----------



## Kenorsanc

You would get

*2/4 Normal(het. Amel, het. Charcoal, 50% poss. het. Anerythristic) 
2/4 Amel (het. Charcoal, 50% poss. het. Anerythristic) 

This is because although they are both white they use a different gene to achieve that look. A snow is Amel and Anery whereas Blizzards are Amel and Charcoal so they are different genetically.


*


----------



## cornmorphs

thats it, i'm just too tired to think straight lol


----------



## sparkle

wahhh...

someone tell me what an ultramel x great plains would result in.... pretty please,,

is it just a more extreme creamsicle.. as in lighter....


----------



## cornmorphs

sparkle said:


> wahhh...
> 
> someone tell me what an ultramel x great plains would result in.... pretty please,,
> 
> is it just a more extreme creamsicle.. as in lighter....


i wouldnt think too many people will have done that one


----------



## captaincaveman

sounds interesting though


----------



## cornmorphs

only if you're using a female gp... will sound harsh but i wouldnt waste a female ultramel


----------



## captaincaveman

cornmorphs said:


> only if you're using a female gp... will sound harsh but i wouldnt waste a female ultramel


yeah true, oh that creamsicle i got off you is looking stunning, just the pain in the arse wont stay still long enough to get a piccy


----------



## cornmorphs

captaincaveman said:


> yeah true, oh that creamsicle i got off you is looking stunning, just the pain in the arse wont stay still long enough to get a piccy


what sex was that one?


----------



## captaincaveman

cornmorphs said:


> what sex was that one?


 
Male, this is the nearest i got to getting his pic:no1:


----------



## cornmorphs

how big is he now then?


----------



## captaincaveman

not weighed him yet, but hes just over the length of the 50litre really useful and as thick as my finger(which dont help:lol2, but hes a right litle bruiser. he looks like a minature adult rather than what normal yearling look like, if you know what i mean, and he's really really bright, everytime i open the tub i forget how bright he is:lol2:


----------



## cornmorphs

yeah, those bad boys always were great growers


----------



## captaincaveman

that was my first one off you, if you remember:no1:, its amanda favourite too:no1:


----------



## cornmorphs

i do remember mate


----------



## madaboutreptiles

How about bloodred het hypo lavender x bloodred het hypo lavender


----------



## Ssthisto

You'd get:

1/16 Hypo Lavender Blood
3/16 Hypo Blood
3/16 Lavender Blood
9/16 Bloodred poss. het Hypo, Lavender.


----------



## madaboutreptiles

I am all exited, should have a pair of these at the end of the month.they wont be to breed for a couple of years...but i'm still exited!!


----------



## cornmorphs

Ssthisto said:


> You'd get:
> 
> 1/16 Hypo Lavender Blood
> 3/16 Hypo Blood
> 3/16 Lavender Blood
> 9/16 Bloodred poss. het Hypo, Lavender.


lovely, so i should get a hypo plasma soon then hehe


----------



## Ssthisto

sparkle said:


> wahhh...
> 
> someone tell me what an ultramel x great plains would result in.... pretty please,,
> 
> is it just a more extreme creamsicle.. as in lighter....


First generation cross you'd get:

50% Rootbeer het Amel
50% Rootbeer het Ultra

I would assume that a second generation Ultramel Cream would actually be DARKER than a Creamsicle because Ultra allows SOME production of black pigment.


----------



## Ssthisto

cornmorphs said:


> lovely, so i should get a hypo plasma soon then hehe


Well, if you wind up with a few "unwanted" lavender blood byproducts in your Hypo Lav-Blood project I'll certainly rehome them for you


----------



## cornmorphs

well i dont think i'll be trying that one.
wanna get myself a snow to make more ultramel anerys lol


----------



## madaboutreptiles

Ssthisto said:


> Well, if you wind up with a few "unwanted" lavender blood byproducts in your Hypo Lav-Blood project I'll certainly rehome them for you


 
that would nice.....so what would be another good female morph i could put with the male?


----------



## cornmorphs

blood with any many hets as you can get.


----------



## madaboutreptiles

that could be fun trying to find those?


----------



## cornmorphs

to be honest, i suppose you donmt want to get too many mixed up unless you are gonna keep a lot and are trying to produce a mega rare morph.


----------



## madaboutreptiles

true but it could be a good ongoing project, i will have tokeep my eyes open see whats available


----------



## cornmorphs

there are always new morphs to make mate.
did you see my ghost at the show> (did you go? lol)
that old ghost, that sam now has, wow i just dunno what it actually is.. no one does.. totally unusual, i may have created a completely new line and not known it... it does happen.


----------



## madaboutreptiles

cornmorphs said:


> there are always new morphs to make mate.
> did you see my ghost at the show> (did you go? lol)
> that old ghost, that sam now has, wow i just dunno what it actually is.. no one does.. totally unusual, i may have created a completely new line and not known it... it does happen.


"did I go".........just make me feel worse....cheers for that

I will be home for the basildon show I think so hopefully I can sneak away.I will have to tell the wife its something to do with work.....if she new its a rep show I would have no chance...lol


----------



## twodogs

someone asked me this today ULTRAMEL X BUTTER you know how shite i am with genetics with the ultra gene :lol2:


----------



## cornmorphs

twodogs said:


> someone asked me this today ULTRAMEL X BUTTER you know how shite i am with genetics with the ultra gene :lol2:


asked you what dude?

how did the feeding go? have you done them today?


----------



## captaincaveman

twodogs said:


> someone asked me this today ULTRAMEL X BUTTER you know how shite i am with genetics with the ultra gene :lol2:


50% amel het caramel
50% ultramel het caramel

thats why you want ultramel het caramel for those lovely goldusts quicker:no1:


----------



## cornmorphs

captaincaveman said:


> 50% amel het caramel
> 50% ultramel het caramel
> 
> thats why you want ultramel het caramel for those lovely goldusts quicker:no1:


yeah i have goldust motley, ultramel motley het caramel, and about 10 female butter motleys and hurricane butter motleys, as well as 2 normal female butters ready now.. just waiting for buy the goldust adult male het motley, then will mate one of the butters right away.


----------



## twodogs

cornmorphs said:


> asked you what dude?
> 
> how did the feeding go? have you done them today?


fed them earlier about an hour ago, 3 ultramels not fed and 1 amel everything else ok (inc all the ult anerys)some are "overnighters" so ill look in the morning


----------



## cornmorphs

twodogs said:


> fed them earlier about an hour ago, 3 ultramels not fed and 1 amel everything else ok (inc all the ult anerys)some are "overnighters" so ill look in the morning


thats pretty good then.
i'll have to have a look at that 3rd ultramel anery.. whats is looking like?


----------



## captaincaveman

cornmorphs said:


> yeah i have goldust motley, ultramel motley het caramel, and about 10 female butter motleys and hurricane butter motleys, as well as 2 normal female butters ready now.. just waiting for buy the goldust adult male het motley, then will mate one of the butters right away.


 
cant you just put you ultramel mot het caramel straight to a butter motley for 25% goldust motleys?


----------



## captaincaveman

ignore me, i forgot you already had a goldust motley:lol2:


----------



## twodogs

cornmorphs said:


> thats pretty good then.
> i'll have to have a look at that 3rd ultramel anery.. whats is looking like?


 
looks ok mate fed tonight as well


----------



## cornmorphs

captaincaveman said:


> cant you just put you ultramel mot het caramel straight to a butter motley for 25% goldust motleys?


sounds about right, there will also me ultramel mots het caramel and amels mots het caramel


----------



## cornmorphs

twodogs said:


> looks ok mate fed tonight as well


great stuff, coz the tail was a little crispy.. probably the best way to say it lol


----------



## asnakecalled?

ok im confused again

so i now a Pastel is a selective bread ghost 
but what would happen if i bread a pastel ghost motley to a normal ghost (i know they would be ghosts but would any be pastel or motley or just het motley)


----------



## Ssthisto

asnakecalled? said:


> ok im confused again
> 
> so i now a Pastel is a selective bread ghost
> but what would happen if i bread a pastel ghost motley to a normal ghost (i know they would be ghosts but would any be pastel or motley or just het motley)


Het motley (unless your ghost is het motley, in which you'd expect some visuals) but I don't know if you'd get any "pastels" out of them.

I have to admit, I don't do the "pastel" thing - most of the ghosts I've seen display varying degrees of the pastel colouring, and it's not a significant enough difference between "ghost" and "pastel ghost" for me to call it a separate morph _personally_.


----------



## asnakecalled?

thanks for that it was the motley thing that confused me


----------



## sparkle

cornmorphs said:


> only if you're using a female gp... will sound harsh but i wouldnt waste a female ultramel


 
Im going to use a female GPR snake yup... im also going to get a few more rat snakes and see what thinigs come up.. i know the corn purists dont really like that but i adore the rat/corn hybrids... and id never label them CORNS...

I also know there is a lot of debate about Rat snakes unlocking some genetics with corn morphs... i think it was white sided and also of course GPR....

can anyone tell me the proven ones, the suspected ones and the ones that people cant agree on???


----------



## Ssthisto

sparkle said:


> can anyone tell me the proven ones, the suspected ones and the ones that people cant agree on???


Basically, people SUSPECT any new morph 

GPR are proven responsible for the yellowing effect in Creamsicles and the browning effect in Rootbeers - and may be responsible for some high saddle counts, but not all of them.

I've heard suspicions about Everglades/Yellow rats being the source of Bloodred and Stripe, though I've also heard of pure-looking wildcaught bloodred corns. 

Ultra is suspected to have come from "White Oak" phase Grey rat snakes. This is in the process of being proved out - people are trying to find out if you get Ultramels if you cross an Amel corn to a White Oak rat.

Frosted saddles are also suspected as being from Grey rats.

If Leucistic ever shows up, people will be SURE it's come from Texas rat snakes - even if it's not.

Cinder (AKA "Z", Anerythristic C and "Ashy") has had suspicion leveled at it, though no concrete results, and the people who have pointed the finger tend to say Great Plains there too.


----------



## sparkle

Ssthisto said:


> Basically, people SUSPECT any new morph
> 
> GPR are proven responsible for the yellowing effect in Creamsicles and the browning effect in Rootbeers - and may be responsible for some high saddle counts, but not all of them.
> 
> I've heard suspicions about Everglades/Yellow rats being the source of Bloodred and Stripe, though I've also heard of pure-looking wildcaught bloodred corns.
> 
> Ultra is suspected to have come from "White Oak" phase Grey rat snakes. This is in the process of being proved out - people are trying to find out if you get Ultramels if you cross an Amel corn to a White Oak rat.
> 
> Frosted saddles are also suspected as being from Grey rats.
> 
> If Leucistic ever shows up, people will be SURE it's come from Texas rat snakes - even if it's not.
> 
> Cinder (AKA "Z", Anerythristic C and "Ashy") has had suspicion leveled at it, though no concrete results, and the people who have pointed the finger tend to say Great Plains there too.


thanks for that.... this was exactly what i wanted to know at this stage...

So if you put an ultramel to a white oak rat the babies may or may not show something telling.... or would that be more likely in the F2 generation ?

and it was cinder/ashy that made me wonder about great plains again...

cheers... any other input or ideas about this would be informative and fascinating...


----------



## Ssthisto

sparkle said:


> So if you put an ultramel to a white oak rat the babies may or may not show something telling.... or would that be more likely in the F2 generation ?


What you'd actually want to do is put an amel corn - which would be known NOT to carry ultra - to a White Oak phase Grey Rat... and if you got ultramel-looking offspring, you've pretty much proven that "White Oak" in Grey Rat snakes is the same gene as "Ultra" in corns.

I remember reading somewhere that there's a type of kingsnake that has a newly discovered gene called "Peanut Butter" that works EXACTLY the same way as Ultra - hypo if it's homozygous, but 'extra hypo' when it's combined with Amel. Makes me wonder who got it first... and whether Peanut Butter is the same thing as Ultra... best way to find THAT out is combining a PB king to an Amel corn to see what happens!


----------



## sparkle

Ssthisto said:


> What you'd actually want to do is put an amel corn - which would be known NOT to carry ultra - to a White Oak phase Grey Rat... and if you got ultramel-looking offspring, you've pretty much proven that "White Oak" in Grey Rat snakes is the same gene as "Ultra" in corns.
> 
> I remember reading somewhere that there's a type of kingsnake that has a newly discovered gene called "Peanut Butter" that works EXACTLY the same way as Ultra - hypo if it's homozygous, but 'extra hypo' when it's combined with Amel. Makes me wonder who got it first... and whether Peanut Butter is the same thing as Ultra... best way to find THAT out is combining a PB king to an Amel corn to see what happens!


ooooo... now u see all this talk of unlocking genes with throw back genetics to hybrids makes me wonder how some things can ever be termed 100% Definate PURE if it cant be traced back then back then back....


----------



## Ssthisto

You get right down to it, there's no such thing as "pure" anyway - the distinctions we make are based on human diagnostics, those diagnostics change and you get shifting definitions of what's "pure" X or "hybridised" Y - because the definitions of X and Y change.

All the North American rat snakes* probably had a common ancestor. They've diverged through geographic separation and expanding to fill various ecological niches. It's not surprising that some genes are compatible with others, and that some mutations crop up here and there, looking similar to other mutations or working with those other mutations... because they're all related if you go far enough back. You go far enough back and Great Plains Rats and Corns are both "pure" Southeastern US Rat Snakes. I'd love to see MtDNA sequencing done on the North American colubrids just to see how closely related everything actually IS.

That's why, if I ever DO any hybridisation, I won't be calling them "creamsicle corns" ... I think that tacking "corn" on the end of things that are only partly cornsnake is misleading. 

If I make Texas rat X Corn hybrids, they'll be "North American Rat Snakes" described as het for Texas Rat leucism and Cornsnake hypo, amel and anery. I think that's the only way I can ethically label them - and it will be made clear where each of the genes I know to be in those offspring (based on the parental phenotypes) have come from.

*Never mind just NA Rat snakes... North American colubrids as a whole seem to be pretty closely related seeing as they can produce interfertile hybrids, I wouldn't be totally surprised if most of the New World colubrids can be crossed to produce viable (if not fertile) hybrids, and I've seen Snakes 'n' Adders post a stock list with a Japanese Ratsnake X Corn hybrid on it... now THAT I didn't know was possible. Is there anything you CAN'T breed a corn to?


----------



## sparkle

Ssthisto said:


> You get right down to it, there's no such thing as "pure" anyway - the distinctions we make are based on human diagnostics, those diagnostics change and you get shifting definitions of what's "pure" X or "hybridised" Y - because the definitions of X and Y change.
> 
> All the North American rat snakes* probably had a common ancestor. They've diverged through geographic separation and expanding to fill various ecological niches. It's not surprising that some genes are compatible with others, and that some mutations crop up here and there, looking similar to other mutations or working with those other mutations... because they're all related if you go far enough back. You go far enough back and Great Plains Rats and Corns are both "pure" Southeastern US Rat Snakes. I'd love to see MtDNA sequencing done on the North American colubrids just to see how closely related everything actually IS.
> 
> That's why, if I ever DO any hybridisation, I won't be calling them "creamsicle corns" ... I think that tacking "corn" on the end of things that are only partly cornsnake is misleading.
> 
> If I make Texas rat X Corn hybrids, they'll be "North American Rat Snakes" described as het for Texas Rat leucism and Cornsnake hypo, amel and anery. I think that's the only way I can ethically label them - and it will be made clear where each of the genes I know to be in those offspring (based on the parental phenotypes) have come from.
> 
> *Never mind just NA Rat snakes... North American colubrids as a whole seem to be pretty closely related seeing as they can produce interfertile hybrids, I wouldn't be totally surprised if most of the New World colubrids can be crossed to produce viable (if not fertile) hybrids, and I've seen Snakes 'n' Adders post a stock list with a Japanese Ratsnake X Corn hybrid on it... now THAT I didn't know was possible. Is there anything you CAN'T breed a corn to?


Im please someone else is thinking along these lines.... this type of breeding is what interests me most... its the unknown and the finding out and the pulling the threads apart on the very inticate patterned rug of genetics


----------



## captaincaveman

I keep half thinking about having a play with crossing my 'bino everglades into corns, but the only thing stopping me is the potential lack of interest in the babies


----------



## Ssthisto

It'd be interesting to see if they're albino or hypo, CC... and if either of the genes are compatible with corn Amel/Hypo. 

If your 'Glades are anything like my Irwin, I'd be tempted by a corn cross hatchling personally.


----------



## captaincaveman

Ssthisto said:


> It'd be interesting to see if they're albino or hypo, CC... and if either of the genes are compatible with corn Amel/Hypo.
> 
> If your 'Glades are anything like my Irwin, I'd be tempted by a corn cross hatchling personally.


what you mean the offspring, yeah, it'll be interesting to see how it would work, maybe i'll just have to do it


----------



## captaincaveman

heres the girl in question, this gives the best idea of her colour and markings at the moment( can you see the faint stripes that have started to appear now)



















and her colour when we got her(which i miss the peachy colour)


----------



## cornmorphs

Ssthisto said:


> Basically, people SUSPECT any new morph
> 
> GPR are proven responsible for the yellowing effect in Creamsicles and the browning effect in Rootbeers - and may be responsible for some high saddle counts, but not all of them.
> 
> I've heard suspicions about Everglades/Yellow rats being the source of Bloodred and Stripe, though I've also heard of pure-looking wildcaught bloodred corns.
> 
> Ultra is suspected to have come from "White Oak" phase Grey rat snakes. This is in the process of being proved out - people are trying to find out if you get Ultramels if you cross an Amel corn to a White Oak rat.
> 
> Frosted saddles are also suspected as being from Grey rats.
> 
> If Leucistic ever shows up, people will be SURE it's come from Texas rat snakes - even if it's not.
> 
> Cinder (AKA "Z", Anerythristic C and "Ashy") has had suspicion leveled at it, though no concrete results, and the people who have pointed the finger tend to say Great Plains there too.


i think this has been done now


----------



## sparkle

cornmorphs said:


> i think this has been done now


any ideas on the results nige....


----------



## cornmorphs

from what i remember it was from the oak rat.. you breed that to an amel and you get ultramels


----------



## captaincaveman

cornmorphs said:


> from what i remember it was from the oak rat.. you breed that to an amel and you get ultramels


but its probably harder to find a white oak over here than an ultramel now:no1:


----------



## cornmorphs

i dont think there is a probably about it.
i bet there are more ultramels in northampton than there are oaks in the uk lol


----------



## captaincaveman

cornmorphs said:


> i dont think there is a probably about it.
> i bet there are more ultramels in northampton than there are oaks in the uk lol


 
thats what i mean, the cats out of the bag with ultramels now, normal ultramel prices are gonna bomb, i reckon, without having to go through the hets thing, it wont be long either


----------



## cornmorphs

they were always gonna bomb mate.. thats the nature of dom and co-dom, look at pastel in royals? a grand 2 years ago, can get them for about 200


----------



## captaincaveman

yeah, that one of the reasons i didn't wanna spend too much on an ultramel now, the one im getting is kinda irrelavent on the ultramel side, my main reasons the colouring, the ultramel sides the bonus:no1:


----------



## cornmorphs

150 isnt too bad, thats how much mine and pauls are


----------



## captaincaveman

cornmorphs said:


> 150 isnt too bad, thats how much mine and pauls are


 
no, that is spot on compared to what the have been banded around at before


----------



## cornmorphs

and these are 50% poss het ultramel anery too


----------



## captaincaveman

on the subject of high prices, why are amber mots still so dear? did they get forgotten about, they could have been produced in great numbers years ago


----------



## cornmorphs

same reason as charcoal motleys and stripes


----------



## captaincaveman

cornmorphs said:


> same reason as charcoal motleys and stripes


 
yeah, thats suprising also, weird ay?


----------



## sparkle

so is that a white oak grey rat snake ?????


----------



## captaincaveman

sparkle said:


> so is that a white oak grey rat snake ?????


what, that is behind ultras, yeah:no1:


----------



## toyah

Thing is ... the genes being compatible don't PROVE that the gene is from rat snakes. People who are convinced they're pure will still be convinced that they're pure!


----------



## sparkle

captaincaveman said:


> what, that is behind ultras, yeah:no1:


 
ahhhhhh


----------



## sparkle

toyah said:


> Thing is ... the genes being compatible don't PROVE that the gene is from rat snakes. People who are convinced they're pure will still be convinced that they're pure!


 
but then im just dirty not pure LOL : victory:


----------



## toyah

captaincaveman said:


> on the subject of high prices, why are amber mots still so dear? did they get forgotten about, they could have been produced in great numbers years ago


Guess how many amber mots Serpenco produced this year ...


----------



## captaincaveman

toyah said:


> Guess how many amber mots Serpenco produced this year ...


go on? i know they sold out lol


----------



## toyah

That's not really guessing :lol2:

But I am importing every single ONE he has for sale!


----------



## captaincaveman

toyah said:


> That's not really guessing :lol2:
> 
> But I am importing every single ONE he has for sale!


 
have you took a look at my newest piccys, think its labelled caramel based motley, its mainly full od sillyness but the pics are there, and on page 2(i think) is a pic of the size against my girly thumb:lol2:


what i meant with amber motleys is that there isn't any majorly new genetic involved, but it kinda got missed


----------



## toyah

I saw her, she's lovely - I love the colour, which from someone who's not a fan of any caramel based morph is unusual! When I get the snakes here I'll do some comparison photos of guaranteed amber motley vs. guaranteed caramel motley .. that should stop any arguments about your girl


----------



## captaincaveman

cheers:no1:, did you see the pic i posted of the serpenco caramel stripe/motley with amber stripe/motley in the same pic?


----------



## cornmorphs

good job i am getting my own then lol


----------



## cornmorphs

toyah said:


> I saw her, she's lovely - I love the colour, which from someone who's not a fan of any caramel based morph is unusual! When I get the snakes here I'll do some comparison photos of guaranteed amber motley vs. guaranteed caramel motley .. that should stop any arguments about your girl


he can bring it roundmine, then compare it to vinmans imports.. that should give you a conclusive answer one way or another.


----------



## 1949_sam

intravenous said:


> All the babies will definitely have amel in them.
> 
> If there are no hets then you will get 100% amels
> 
> If they are both het anery then you will get 25% amel, 50% amel het anery and 25% snow (amel +anery)


Yay eggs started hatching yesterday and so far there is 6 amels 1 snow out so yep both were het anery.

So i'll hopefully sell the amels as 66% anery and the snows as just snows.

Thanks Sam


----------



## toyah

cornmorphs said:


> he can bring it roundmine, then compare it to vinmans imports.. that should give you a conclusive answer one way or another.


Well I will just have to take photos of them for fun instead of for any particular reason ... LOL. Can't wait til they get here! The quicker they're being fed like I feed 'em instead of being fed like the bigger breeders tend to feed them, the better I think.


----------



## captaincaveman

toyah said:


> Well I will just have to take photos of them for fun instead of for any particular reason ... LOL. Can't wait til they get here! The quicker they're being fed like I feed 'em instead of being fed like the bigger breeders tend to feed them, the better I think.


 
yeah, im the same, i like to get them on my feeding regime, fingers crossed my ultramel should be with me tomorow:no1:


----------



## cornmorphs

toyah said:


> Well I will just have to take photos of them for fun instead of for any particular reason ... LOL. Can't wait til they get here! The quicker they're being fed like I feed 'em instead of being fed like the bigger breeders tend to feed them, the better I think.


i'll just fee dmine at normal rate.
they will take about 4 years to breed though


----------



## toyah

cornmorphs said:


> i'll just fee dmine at normal rate.
> they will take about 4 years to breed though


Normal rate depends who you're talking to though, I think what me and you would call normal rate would be lots more than some breeders give them.


----------



## cornmorphs

true, i feed more along then american view.
most of my 2005 are nowhere near ready to breed.
i have been known to say in the past, that i would breed a 2 year old female if the right size etc... but they are ones i buy at that age usually..


----------



## 1949_sam

toyah said:


> Normal rate depends who you're talking to though, I think what me and you would call normal rate would be lots more than some breeders give them.


Well i feed mine once a week and they all get what i think they can take ect some of my addult females take 2 s/m mouse and the adult males get m/l mouse and hatchlings get 1/2 pinks and so on...

But i have known people to gave less much less


----------



## sarahssnakes

nige a quick question the anerys i had off you today if i put a classic het blizzard to the female(when old enough) what sort of thing would i expect to get??


----------



## cornmorphs

sarahssnakes said:


> nige a quick question the anerys i had off you today if i put a classic het blizzard to the female(when old enough) what sort of thing would i expect to get??


well the het blizzard holds amel and charcoal, the anery is het snow so snow, anery and amel there.
i would probably go for something compatible, its not that its a bad idea, but long term thats a massive project and you wont know half of what the snakes are.


----------



## sarahssnakes

no thats cool wasnt sure how bouts a amel or hypo het blizzard?just to keep you on your toes:lol2:


----------



## crow

I have a pair of normal striped corns. Last year all i got was normal striped babies. I know the male is het for amel & anery but thought the female was not het for anything.
I had a suprise this year when as well as normal stripes i got amel stripes, anery stripes and a snow stripe.
My question is what will these babies be het for. Its all beyond my brain power!!!


----------



## sarahssnakes

lol my brain has turned to mush since having my kids thats how i asked nige


----------



## Ssthisto

crow said:


> I have a pair of normal striped corns. Last year all i got was normal striped babies. I know the male is het for amel & anery but thought the female was not het for anything.
> I had a suprise this year when as well as normal stripes i got amel stripes, anery stripes and a snow stripe.
> My question is what will these babies be het for. Its all beyond my brain power!!!


Well, obviously Mum is also het amel and anery. Which means that:

The normals are 66% possible het amel and anery.
The amels are 66% possible het anery.
The anery are 66% possible het amel.


----------



## Kenorsanc

sarahssnakes said:


> nige a quick question the anerys i had off you today if i put a classic het blizzard to the female(when old enough) what sort of thing would i expect to get??


This would actually produce

75% Normal(het. Anerythristic, 66% poss. het. Amel, 50% poss. het. Charcoal) 
25% Amel (het. Anerythristic, 50% poss. het. Charcoal)

As Anery and charcoal are different genes.


----------



## Kenorsanc

sarahssnakes said:


> no thats cool wasnt sure how bouts a amel or hypo het blizzard?just to keep you on your toes:lol2:



Also this one would produce

Amel het charcoal X Het blizzard

37.5% Normal(het. Amel, 66% poss. het. Charcoal) 
37.5% Amel (66% poss. het. Charcoal) 
12.5% Charcoal (het. Amel) 
12.5% Blizzard 

Hypo het Blizzard x het blizzard

56.25% Normal(het. Hypomelanistic, 66% poss. het. Amel, 66% poss. het. Charcoal) 
18.75% Amel (het. Hypomelanistic, 66% poss. het. Charcoal) 
18.75% Charcoal (het. Hypomelanistic, 66% poss. het. Amel) 
6.25% Blizzard (het. Hypomelanistic)


----------



## cornmorphs

i so glad there are lots of helpful people here :lol2:


----------



## sarahssnakes

ok one last q is it best to buy males or females as i was looking at getting a amel,amel het snow and a hypo het blizzard and poss a classic het snow?as i already have the 2 i had of you nige?so really wasnt sure which would be best of which type?ie is it best to buy the males with the hets?or females?or other way around?no good at this genetic stuff
:lol2:


----------



## Kenorsanc

Well it would be easier if you told us what you actually wanted to produce as youv'e listed 4 genes amel, anery, charcoal and hypo. So say what you want to make ie ghost, coral snow etc.


----------



## cornmorphs

sod it, go for coral ghost lol


----------



## cornhappy

What will I get when I breed my female okeetee and normal to my male Caramel het for butter X snow?


----------



## captaincaveman

cornhappy said:


> What will I get when I breed my female okeetee and normal to my male Caramel het for butter X snow?


both your okeetee and normal wont make any difference to the outcome, im a bit confused about what you mean with your male?

caramel het butter x snow, so you mean caramel het amel and anery?

you'll get normals(depending on which influence has come from whatever female youve chosen) and they will be

25% het butter het anery
25% het anery, het caramel
25% het butter
25% het caramel


----------



## Niccired

im getting a female butter soon and im also wanting a coral off stephen sharp if any hatch but im just wondering what would be the best match for these guys to produce nice morphs? Thanks : victory:


----------



## Ssthisto

Depends on what you want to make, Nicci.

If you want visual morphs in the first batch, you've got to get something het for the morphs you're getting.

A Coral Snow X Butter = all Amel het Anery, Caramel, Hypo

I'd put a Butter to something het caramel and probably het amel (AKA "het butter) or maybe to an Amber (100% caramel het amel and hypo)

I'd be inclined to put the coral snow to a bloodred carrier - not least because the Coral Avalanches I've seen Lexcorn's photos of are lovely...


----------



## spirit975

Just a simple one......if i put a motley to a striped, would all the babies be het motley and striped?


----------



## Ssthisto

spirit975 said:


> Just a simple one......if i put a motley to a striped, would all the babies be het motley and striped?


Depends on what your motley is genetically.

Motley is actually *dominant* to stripe and is located on the same gene pair, and can "hide" stripe underneath it if the animal is "het motley, het stripe."

So if you cross a motley to a stripe and get:

100% motleys then these motleys are "Motley het stripe".

If you cross the motley to stripe and get:

50% motleys 
50% stripes

You know that your motleys are het stripe (including your adult motley). The stripes are homozygous stripe.

You would not expect any non-visual morphs - either motley or stripe - out of this pairing.


----------



## Niccired

Ssthisto said:


> Depends on what you want to make, Nicci.
> 
> If you want visual morphs in the first batch, you've got to get something het for the morphs you're getting.
> 
> A Coral Snow X Butter = all Amel het Anery, Caramel, Hypo
> 
> I'd put a Butter to something het caramel and probably het amel (AKA "het butter) or maybe to an Amber (100% caramel het amel and hypo)
> 
> I'd be inclined to put the coral snow to a bloodred carrier - not least because the Coral Avalanches I've seen Lexcorn's photos of are lovely...


Thanks for that! its all abit complicated for me but i am abit thick! :lol2:


----------



## Ssthisto

Niccired said:


> Thanks for that! its all abit complicated for me but i am abit thick! :lol2:


Generally speaking, there's two ways to buy morphs:

1. Buy what you like the look of, and take what you get when you breed - which may be a lot of normals het for this-and-that-and-the-other.

2. Buy snakes based on the results you expect to get when you breed them together, and remember that your adults are just going to be what you can get.

In my experience, a LOT of people do the former but WANT the latter. And unless you've got LOADS of room... it's not the best way.

If you want to produce Amber Motleys, it doesn't make sense to buy a Coral Snow. If you want to produce Coral Snows, don't buy a Charcoal Stripe. 

I have two project pairs.

One is a Coral Snow poss. het bloodred, who will be paired with a Charcoal-Anery het bloodred (poss hypo and amel). This is because I want a Granite to keep - and if I get snow bloods to sell, all the better.

The other is a pair of Anery het amel, lavender, stripe. This is because I want Lavender stripes to keep - and Glaciers/Glacier Stripes to sell. 

I bought both of these pairs for their genotype - the genes they carry - not their phenotype - their outward appearance.

But, on the other hand... if I get an Amber it'll be because I want the LOOK of the snake and don't want to have to breed one myself!


----------



## Niccired

Yeah i understand what your saying. Im getting a butter because i like them and also want a coral coz there diffrent but ive already got a ghost and a normal so i thought in the future breeding might be an option? I still have ALOT to learn on that side of things but i just think its a waste to have alot of nice snakes just sitting there not really doing much :lol2:


----------



## Ssthisto

Niccired said:


> Yeah i understand what your saying. Im getting a butter because i like them and also want a coral coz there diffrent but ive already got a ghost and a normal so i thought in the future breeding might be an option? I still have ALOT to learn on that side of things but i just think its a waste to have alot of nice snakes just sitting there not really doing much :lol2:


Well, a ghost to a coral snow will produce Ghosts het Amel.

But generally, if you mix two different morphs without carefully planning it out, you're in for lots of little normals


----------



## Niccired

im glad i asked now! I didnt realise how much planning was involved! At least now i wont go out buying loads of snakes then have nothing to do with them! :lol2: I was thinking of getting a snow could this be a good match with any of them?


----------



## Ssthisto

Well, a Coral Snow is genetically a snow (plus hypo) ... so a snow X coral snow would equal snows het hypo.

What sort of babies would you LIKE to hatch out? Do you want clutches of babies that are all different, or do you want to know that they're all going to come out the same?


----------



## Niccired

Id like them to be different i suppose. would it just be easier buying a breeding pair with known hets?


----------



## Ssthisto

If you want a clutch with all different babies, yes, you're better off buying a pair with *compatible *hets. 

For example, if you want a coral snow because you like the looks, get an opposite-sex who's a normal het coral snow. That gives you the chance of:

Normals (poss het coral snow)
Anery (poss het hypo, amel)
Amel (poss het anery, hypo)
Hypo (poss het anery, amel)
Ghost (poss het amel)
Amel/Hypo (difficult to distinguish from Amel, poss het anery)
Snow (poss het hypo)
Coral Snow

Not bad for a single clutch  And to get a normal het for coral snow, you just need someone to have bred a Ghost to an Amel...

You could also go for things like Amel het Ghost X Ghost het amel - that'd get you a higher percentage of visually not-normal offspring.


----------



## 1949_sam

intravenous said:


> Assuming there are no hets then amel x hypo would give 100% normals het amel and hypo.


Hello :lol2:

One has hatched out and it's a normal, but there are 3 Amels heads pocking out :lol2: so what are the perents het for as now i'm puzzled, the mum is an Amel and the dad is a Hypo? So is the dad het Amel?


----------



## cornmorphs

yes hun


----------



## 1949_sam

cornmorphs said:


> yes hun


:lol2: so what will the hatchlings be het for :lol2:


----------



## cornmorphs

normals het hypo amel
amels het hypo


----------



## 1949_sam

cornmorphs said:


> normals het hypo amel
> amels het hypo


Yay i got it right thanks babes, i'm having a covo with a mate on msn and i said that:

*so that gives me normals het Hypo + Amel and Amels het Hypo :lol2:*


----------



## Hardwicki

Hi

I dunno if this is already on here but i'm not reading 43 pages to find out. 
What would i get if i bred my 
snow with a pewter??
snow with a lavender?

cheers
: victory:


----------



## intravenous

Hardwicki said:


> Hi
> 
> I dunno if this is already on here but i'm not reading 43 pages to find out.
> What would i get if i bred my
> snow with a pewter??
> snow with a lavender?
> 
> cheers
> : victory:


Snow x pewter = 100% normals het amel, anery, charcoal and bloodred

Snow x lavender = 100% normals het amel, anery and lavender


----------



## Hardwicki

intravenous said:


> Snow x pewter = 100% normals het amel, anery, charcoal and bloodred
> 
> Snow x lavender = 100% normals het amel, anery and lavender


Cheers for that. I gotta get me a pewter, my boyfriends jaw hit the floor...he wants a bloodred so much!!!: victory:


----------



## cornmorphs

1949_sam said:


> Yay i got it right thanks babes, i'm having a covo with a mate on msn and i said that:
> 
> *so that gives me normals het Hypo + Amel and Amels het Hypo :lol2:*


something like that lol


----------



## cornmorphs

Hardwicki said:


> Cheers for that. I gotta get me a pewter, my boyfriends jaw hit the floor...he wants a bloodred so much!!!: victory:


its a long shot, but my charcoal het pewter/blood is about to pay ( it think) 2 months away and more, but i might have some..
you should find some before that to be honest.


----------



## 1949_sam

cornmorphs said:


> something like that lol


:lol2: hope it's right i don't want to sell them wrong if you get me :lol2:


----------



## Hardwicki

cornmorphs said:


> its a long shot, but my charcoal het pewter/blood is about to pay ( it think) 2 months away and more, but i might have some..
> you should find some before that to be honest.


i am in no rush at all and would love one of your corns if i can afford. i've heard theyre the s**t...hehe. it;d be ace if you could keep me informed...cheers: victory: any idea on prices for your charcoals hatchlings?


----------



## cornmorphs

about 50 quid if i get any, not counting on it now though, its very late in the year to be getting eggs.. so if she does BONUS, but probably just keep her going for next year now.


----------



## Hardwicki

cornmorphs said:


> about 50 quid if i get any, not counting on it now though, its very late in the year to be getting eggs.. so if she does BONUS, but probably just keep her going for next year now.


no worries chuck...cheers: victory:


----------



## storm

ok i have a male lavender motley/stripe, a female reverse okeetee, a female butter and a female snow.... what would i get from these??


----------



## captaincaveman

storm said:


> ok i have a male lavender motley/stripe, a female reverse okeetee, a female butter and a female snow.... what would i get from these??


 
reverse okeetee will give normal het opal, het motley( well it predicts half strip/ half motley)

butter will give normal het butter, het lav, het motley(well half stripe, half motley)

snow will give normal het snow, het lav, het motley(half stripe, half motley)

without any other het being taken into account, ssithco will be able to give a better explanation of how the stripe/motley thing works


----------



## storm

ok, how would i get opals from the het opal babies??


----------



## captaincaveman

storm said:


> ok, how would i get opals from the het opal babies??


 
put two of the babies together:no1: you will get a small percentage of opals with some kind of stripe/motley patterning and the same with some lavenders as well as a bunch of others(normals stripe/motleys in some form)


----------



## storm

fantastic, cheers :smile: altho is it ok to cross two siblings? (new to genetics lol)


----------



## captaincaveman

storm said:


> fantastic, cheers :smile: altho is it ok to cross two siblings? (new to genetics lol)


 
yeah, its common practice:no1:we wouldn't have the morphs without it:no1its also done in non morphs for the prettiest normals too)


----------



## storm

ok great, thanks... am after some opals as you can prob tell :smile:


----------



## Ssthisto

captaincaveman said:


> without any other het being taken into account, ssithco will be able to give a better explanation of how the stripe/motley thing works


Motley/Stripe:

I hate hate hate that term. There are three possibilities:

1. It's a *Zipper/Ribbon* *Motley *who happens to have a pattern resembling stripe. This can be homozygous motley OR het motley het stripe - unless you breed it to a stripe and get stripes out, no way to be sure. 
2. It's a *Stripe* - genetically homozygous stripe, and the stripes are even in width with no zigs or wider patches in them.
3. It's a *Motley Het Stripe* with one copy motley, one copy stripe. These can show *any* motley pattern - hurricane, typical motley, ribbon/zipper, Q-tipped, etc.

Motley/Stripe does not automatically mean it's #3. 

Storm, what were your Lavender "motley/stripe" male's parents?


----------



## storm

unfortunately i dont know..... here is a pic of him so u can see his pattern.. only 5 months old atm...


----------



## captaincaveman

Ssthisto said:


> Motley/Stripe:
> 
> I hate hate hate that term. There are three possibilities:
> 
> 1. It's a *Zipper/Ribbon* *Motley *who happens to have a pattern resembling stripe. This can be homozygous motley OR het motley het stripe - unless you breed it to a stripe and get stripes out, no way to be sure.
> 2. It's a *Stripe* - genetically homozygous stripe, and the stripes are even in width with no zigs or wider patches in them.
> 3. It's a *Motley Het Stripe* with one copy motley, one copy stripe. These can show *any* motley pattern - hurricane, typical motley, ribbon/zipper, Q-tipped, etc.
> 
> Motley/Stripe does not automatically mean it's #3.
> 
> Storm, what were your Lavender "motley/stripe" male's parents?


yeah thats why i left that to you:lol2: theres so many names for it, zipper, ribbon, pin striped or q-tip take your pick:lol2:


----------



## Ssthisto

storm said:


> unfortunately i dont know..... here is a pic of him so u can see his pattern.. only 5 months old atm...


Lovely little Zipper/Ribbon motley you've got 

I'd assume (unless you breed him to a homozygous stripe and get any actual stripe babies out of him) that he's homozygous motley... in which case you're expecting 100% het motley out of anything you breed him to.


----------



## captaincaveman

Ssthisto said:


> Lovely little Zipper/Ribbon motley you've got
> 
> I'd assume (unless you breed him to a homozygous stripe and get any actual stripe babies out of him) that he's homozygous motley... in which case you're expecting 100% het motley out of anything you breed him to.


 
pm'd ya hun


----------



## CBR1100XX

Male Creamsicle Stripe to Female Reverse Okeetee.:?:


----------



## captaincaveman

fazer600sy said:


> Male Creamsicle Stripe to Female Reverse Okeetee.:?:


 
well its amel to amel, and any amel to creamsicle still produces whats classed as creamsicles


so ya going to get a creamsicle het stripe but not sure how much of the RO's influence is going to be in the pattern:lol2:


----------



## hogboy

Goldust het motley to Amber motley :smile:


----------



## Ssthisto

Golddust het motley is: Homozygous caramel, het amel, het ultra, het motley.

Amber motley is: Homozygous caramel, homozygous hypo, homozygous motley.

Result:

50% Caramel motley 100% het hypo, het EITHER amel OR ultra
50% Caramel 100% het hypo and motley, het EITHER amel or ultra.


----------



## hogboy

Thanks Ssthisto :smile:
Could you suggest a better morph to cross with an amber motley ?
A friend recently prodiced one female, and i'd love to take her but
cant think of a project to put her with
Available males are
Striped butter
Lava het anery
Lav mot
Hypo sunkissed
Suggestions welcomed


----------



## cornmorphs

hogboy said:


> Thanks Ssthisto :smile:
> Could you suggest a better morph to cross with an amber motley ?
> A friend recently prodiced one female, and i'd love to take her but
> cant think of a project to put her with
> Available males are
> Striped butter
> Lava het anery
> Lav mot
> Hypo sunkissed
> Suggestions welcomed


i'd like to see hypo sunkissed chucked into that


----------



## hogboy

cornmorphs said:


> i'd like to see hypo sunkissed chucked into that


Hopefully have an 07 pair arriving in a couple of weeks :smile:


----------



## captaincaveman

cornmorphs said:


> i'd like to see hypo sunkissed chucked into that


i was just about to say the same thing:mf_dribble:


----------



## cornmorphs

nice one, yeah that would be sweet... might not produce anything too nice, but my bet is it will.


----------



## trese

what would i get if i bred

hypo - ghost motley
hypo het bloodred - amel motley
amel - classic


hypo - hypo het bloodred
amel motley - classic
amel - ghost motley

hypo - classic
amel motley - ghost motley
amel hypo het bloodred

thank u


----------



## captaincaveman

trese said:


> what would i get if i bred
> 
> hypo - ghost motley
> hypo het bloodred - amel motley
> amel - classic
> 
> 
> hypo - hypo het bloodred
> amel motley - classic
> amel - ghost motley
> 
> hypo - classic
> amel motley - ghost motley
> amel hypo het bloodred
> 
> thank u


 
not many then:lol2:

hypo to ghost motley = hypos het anery het motley
hypo het bloodred to amel motley= 50% normal het amel, hypo,motley, bloodred, 50% normal het amel, mypo, motley
amel to normal = normal het amel

hypo to hypo het bloodred = 50% hypo het bloodred, 50% hypo
amel motley to normal = normals het amel, het motley
amel to ghost motley = normal, het snow, het hypo, het motley

hypo to normal = normal het hypo
amel motley to ghost motley = normal motleys het snow, het hypo
amel to hypo het bloodred = 50% normal het amel, hypo , bloodred, 50% normal het amel, hypo

hope that helps:no1:


I'd personally put hypo het bloodred to ghost motley, then their offspring together(hopefully the het bloodreds should be obvious), but thats me personally should be hypo motley granites, if ive gone that right


----------



## trese

wow cool thank u captain caveman


----------



## ant29nhampton

hi nige and jas
right next year breeding 
got 2 male corns snow and butter motly 
whitch are best to put to 

anery 
cremsicle 
classic

not included the butter or sungow as there going to one of your males lol
ant


----------



## cornmorphs

ant29nhampton said:


> hi nige and jas
> right next year breeding
> got 2 male corns snow and butter motly
> whitch are best to put to
> 
> anery
> cremsicle
> classic
> 
> not included the butter or sungow as there going to one of your males lol
> ant


well you may as well go anery to snow.. get anerys, i think yours produces snows too.
creamsicle, well you could use the butter motley and keep some babies back to produce cream mots, they are nice.. but thats a project.. 
normal, well it dont really matter.. gonna be mainly normals anyway.


----------



## ant29nhampton

ok thats sorted for next year then lol
but following year gona have loads of females to freed from but my stripe male will be ready then will be asking you what to put what with lol


----------



## wrapped_in_plastic

hey peeps i think i have asked ages ago but can't find it what would i get from my lav het motley(f) and anery het hypo, stripe and lavender(m)? also what would be a good investment for another little girl?


----------



## cornmorphs

ant29nhampton said:


> ok thats sorted for next year then lol
> but following year gona have loads of females to freed from but my stripe male will be ready then will be asking you what to put what with lol


get urself some female stripes...


----------



## cornmorphs

wrapped_in_plastic said:


> hey peeps i think i have asked ages ago but can't find it what would i get from my lav het motley(f) and anery het hypo, stripe and lavender(m)? also what would be a good investment for another little girl?


well you might get the odd lavender, maybe the odd motley/stripe mix, other than that ur talking about a bunch of normals with many hets and even more poss hets to carry.
i'd say yes to another female, maybe something with visual genes to match the males hets?


----------



## Ssthisto

wrapped_in_plastic said:


> hey peeps i think i have asked ages ago but can't find it what would i get from my lav het motley(f) and anery het hypo, stripe and lavender(m)? also what would be a good investment for another little girl?


Anery het hypo, stripe, lavender X Lavender het motley =

37.5% = Normal het lavender, anery, possible het hypo, possible het motley OR stripe but not both.
12.5% = Normal Motley het stripe, het lavender, anery, possible het Hypo.
37.5% = Lavender het anery, possible het hypo, possible het motley OR stripe but not both.
12.5% = Lavender Motley het stripe, het anery, possible het hypo.

If it were my trio, I'd probably buy a ghost stripe female


----------



## cornmorphs

Ssthisto said:


> Anery het hypo, stripe, lavender X Lavender het motley =
> 
> 37.5% = Normal het lavender, anery, possible het hypo, possible het motley OR stripe but not both.
> 12.5% = Normal Motley het stripe, het lavender, anery, possible het Hypo.
> 37.5% = Lavender het anery, possible het hypo, possible het motley OR stripe but not both.
> 12.5% = Lavender Motley het stripe, het anery, possible het hypo.
> 
> If it were my trio, I'd probably buy a ghost stripe female


oops, i read that as het lav mot, even though i sold it to her lol.


----------



## ant29nhampton

ok here another one for ya nige wont be for 3 yrs though my pair of stripes

striped poss het amel anery and hypo

allso male above to female caramel motley poss het strip dint no if there any other hets there


----------



## cornmorphs

well ur stripes will produce all stripes for starters..
the rest will depend on what the hets actually are.. at the moment they are possible hets, until you prove them out.. so i cant really add to that, but the potential is massive if they were to hold them all.


----------



## cornmorphs

ant29nhampton said:


> ok here another one for ya nige wont be for 3 yrs though my pair of stripes
> 
> striped poss het amel anery and hypo
> 
> allso male above to female caramel motley poss het strip dint no if there any other hets there


the stripe to the motley caramel will produce a mix of motley and stripe probably, colours will again vay on what the male is actually het for.


----------



## ant29nhampton

cool thanks nige so i could have a good mixture thinking about getting a female snow strip now aswell


----------



## cornmorphs

that might not be such a bad idea.


----------



## captaincaveman

ant29nhampton said:


> cool thanks nige so i could have a good mixture thinking about getting a female snow strip now aswell


 
mind you if all those hets are there, your gonna get amel,anery, hypo, normal, ghost and snow all striped anyway:no1:


----------



## cornmorphs

yeah thats it... i would use the male to see what he has in the 1st year of breeding


----------



## ant29nhampton

cool just hope thay all are there then lol we see in 3 yrs lol but still like a snow stripe :smile:


----------



## ant29nhampton

yer my male be ready when he 2 ish but gona leave the female till she 3 but in 2 yrs can put my male to the caramel motley poss het strip or should i put my butter motley to her


----------



## cornmorphs

dunno mate.. you got plenty of time to think about it though eh :lol2:


----------



## wrapped_in_plastic

ok so if i got a ghost stripe to x with my Anery het hypo, stripe, lavender what would i get? also is there anyway to produce lav stripes using the anery?


----------



## intravenous

wrapped_in_plastic said:


> ok so if i got a ghost stripe to x with my Anery het hypo, stripe, lavender what would i get? also is there anyway to produce lav stripes using the anery?


ghost stripe (i.e. a hypo anery stripe) x anery het hypo, stripe, lavender:

*anery*, 66% het hypo, and stripe, 50% het lavender
*ghost*, 66% het stripe, 50% het lavender
*anery stripe*, 66% hypo, 50% het lavender
*ghost stripe*, 50% lavender

I can't be bothered working out the percentages you'd get right now , maybe later.


To produce lav stripes you would need another corn with lavender and stripe in it:

lavender stripe
lavender het stripe
stripe het lavender
normal het lavender stripe


The number of lavender stripe offspring you get would depend on which if the above it was.


----------



## Hardwicki

Hey guys

I just picked up a beautiful lavender het motley girl. CB06.
I was wondering if i bred her with my snow what would i probably end up with, no known hets in the snow.
Also i have a carolina with lovely colours so what would i get if he got the girl in the end? also he has no known hets.

Cheers.
: victory:


----------



## cornmorphs

they would be likely to be all normals,but the hets would produce alsorts put back to each other.


----------



## Hardwicki

Hmm...Interesting. Cheers Nige. I was just wondering coz shes gorgeous. : victory:
Do you happen to know what hets will come up if i breed them back to each other or is it just a pick n mix?


----------



## cornmorphs

no probs hun..


----------



## madaboutreptiles

Not sure if this is the right area but here go's.....

What is the difference between a "Sunkissed" and a "Sunglow"


----------



## captaincaveman

Palmanda said:


> Not sure if this is the right area but here go's.....
> 
> What is the difference between a "Sunkissed" and a "Sunglow"


 
yeah, right area:no1:. A sunglow is a brightly coloured amel, usually bred for no(or very little white) and for brightness of colour

a sunkissed is a genetically independant form of hypomelanism(hypo b), they are visually very different to other corns, noticably the head pattern, saddle pattern and temperament make them stand out:lol2: e.g can be a bit "bitey":lol2:

If you look at the differences in a hypo caramel(amber), and a sunkissed caramel(honey) you'll see the visual side a lot better


----------



## madaboutreptiles

cheers cavie


----------



## cornmorphs

bitey is not the word lol, mental i think suits them.


----------



## becka

im only considering having a go at breeding, and it wont be for a long time yet if i do decide to as my snakes are all hatchlings lol! ive got 2 males, a normal and an amel, and hopefully getting a female snow. any ideas what they might produce? i dont have a clue with this side of things! thanks


----------



## cornmorphs

well in theory you would get all normals that carry the amel gene, and with the snow the same but the snow gene. the male is likely to hold some genes, there is hardly any normal corns now that dont hold any genes at all.


----------



## Ssthisto

cornmorphs said:


> well in theory you would get all normals that carry the amel gene, and with the snow the same but the snow gene. the male is likely to hold some genes, there is hardly any normal corns now that dont hold any genes at all.


Are you feeling OK, Nigel? "Snow" gene?

A normal male crossed to a snow female will produce normals het for amel and anery.

An amel male crossed to a snow female will produce amels het for anery.

If you get anything else out of the pairing, you know that either your male is het for something you didn't know about (which isn't unlikely when you're talking about amel and anery) or that the female's bred someone you didn't know about


----------



## cornmorphs

i think you know what i ment..


----------



## grannykins

I usuallly breed my anery female with my bright hypo male. From these I get a mix of normals, hypos, amels and a couple of anerys and hypo snows. 
My other pair are a light normal female and a sunglow male. From these I get a mix of normals and amels. 
I have kept a hypo snow male from the first pairing and an amel female from the second pairing, who will be ready to breed in the next year or so. What would I get from
1) breeding the snow to the amel female?
2) breeding the snow back to his anery mother?(is it ok to do this?)
3) breeding the snow to the normal female?
Is there any morph I could buy in to get interesting offspring?

Cheers


----------



## repteen

good question.


----------



## Ssthisto

grannykins said:


> I usuallly breed my anery female with my bright hypo male. From these I get a mix of normals, hypos, amels and a couple of anerys and hypo snows.
> My other pair are a light normal female and a sunglow male. From these I get a mix of normals and amels.
> I have kept a hypo snow male from the first pairing and an amel female from the second pairing, who will be ready to breed in the next year or so. What would I get from
> 1) breeding the snow to the amel female?
> 2) breeding the snow back to his anery mother?(is it ok to do this?)
> 3) breeding the snow to the normal female?
> Is there any morph I could buy in to get interesting offspring?
> 
> Cheers


Ok, if you get normals, hypos, amels, anerys and hypo "Coral" snows out of the first pairing, you know that:

Your anery female is het hypo and amel
Your hypo male is het amel and anery.

If you get Amels and normals from your second pairing you know that:
Your "light normal" is het amel.

So...

*1) If you breed the Coral snow to the amel female you'd expect 100% amel babies who are het for anery and hypo.* 
*2) If you breed the Coral snow to his Anery het hypo and amel mother, you would expect to get:*
25% Anery het hypo and amel.
25% Ghost het amel
25% Snow het hypo
25% Coral Snow
It IS completely ok to do this if both animals are completely healthy, you haven't had any problems getting them to start feeding, and you've not had any visible deformities in the clutch that produced the Coral Snow.
*3) If you breed the Coral Snow to your normal female, you'd expect to get:*
50% normal het anery, hypo, amel
50% amel het anery and hypo

Lastly: What do you call "Interesting" offspring? In your first generation, basically you've got combinations of Amel, Hypo and Anery to work with, and anything that isn't one of these will not show in the offspring.


----------



## grannykins

Thanks for that. Is there anyway/where I could learn about what affects what (e.g. how the hypo gene affects ghost, and what produces things like ultramel and lavender etc) so I dont have to ask all the time?


----------



## Ssthisto

grannykins said:


> Thanks for that. Is there anyway/where I could learn about what affects what (e.g. how the hypo gene affects ghost, and what produces things like ultramel and lavender etc) so I dont have to ask all the time?


Well, to answer the three questions you've asked there:

1. You don't get a ghost WITHOUT hypo - Ghost is Hypo Anery.
2. You get Ultramel by breeding an animal carrying the Ultra gene (which, on its own, acts like a hypomelanistic-type gene) to an animal who carries or is Amelanistic. The offspring who get one copy of Ultra from one parent and one copy of amel from another parent will be Ultramel. You can't get "het" ultramel, either - the two genes exist on the same gene pair, so if they have both ingredients, they'll be visually ultramel. And if you breed an ultramel to a normal, the offspring will be het for EITHER ultra OR amel but not both 
3. Lavender is a simple single recessive gene like Amel or Anery - you get them from breeding two animals who carry the Lavender gene (either het or homozygous). 

And for more information I can strongly recommend Charles "Serpwidgets" Pritzel's book "The Corn Snake Morph Guide" - I think they're on the 2007 edition now


----------



## grannykins

Thanks.


----------



## daughterofthedarkness

*gold dust*

i just got my new corn, a lurrrvly little female gold dust from serpenco. just a hatchling at the mo but growing her up for breeding in the future, i've been breeding corns for years now, but have never tried producing specific morphs (mainly cos i'm a bit pants when it comes to genetics:smile
so my question is what should i breed her and her future babies to to stand a better chance of producing either gold dusts or something equally as pretty in the future?
at the moment i have...
male ghost
male amel
male snow
male ruby eye ghost
male carolina
female anery
female carolina
female creamsicle
female amel fantasy

i read somewhere that the gold dust is the amel version of an amber?? so would it be better to get an amber or even splash out on another gold dust? or can i hope to play about with what i've got?

I also have a hatchling 'chimera'... 2nd generation jungle corn crossed with a mega corn (thinking about crossing this with my fantasy to see what pops out... a fantasy mega jungle?:lol2 anyone tried this?? 
thanx in advance...sam


----------



## Ssthisto

daughterofthedarkness said:


> i read somewhere that the gold dust is the amel version of an amber?? so would it be better to get an amber or even splash out on another gold dust? or can i hope to play about with what i've got?


To get golddusts out of your GD female, you ought to breed her to a butter male. You'll get half butters and half golddusts.

Amber X golddust will produce 100% caramel het hypo and het EITHER amel OR ultra but not both.



> I also have a hatchling 'chimera'... 2nd generation jungle corn crossed with a mega corn (thinking about crossing this with my fantasy to see what pops out... a fantasy mega jungle?:lol2 anyone tried this??
> thanx in advance...sam


Jungle corn = Cal king X Corn.
"Mega" corn = Depending on who you talk to, this could be a:

(Cal King X Corn) X Corn (i.e. a 75% corn Jungle)
Corn X Emoryi (But this is USUALLY called a Rootbeer/Copper...)
Corn X Bull snake
Fantasy corn = Grey Rat X Corn.

What you'll GET is a North American Rat Snake (plus some _Lamprophis_ and maybe some _Pituophis_).

It'd be interesting to see what the "Chimaera" looks like, though...


----------



## daughterofthedarkness

thanks for that. so a butter it is then.
here's a thumbnail of the chimaera, (my made up name by the way:smile thought it best to just post a little pic so that nige doesn't shout at me for hijacking his thread and filling it full of pics :lol2:.


i just chose her cos she's a heinz 57 varieties, she's just a baby at the moment so who knows how she'll look as an adult
ps ignore the remaining shed on her tail, she's just shed and i took it off after takin the photo's doh!!! (her daddy is a cali king x corn and mummy is a corn x emoryi)


----------



## Ssthisto

Ahhh. So she's a Rootbeer Jungle or Copper Jungle (depending on whether you use the original American name for a non-amel emoryi/corn cross or the UK name). Interesting combination. Keep in mind you'll want to make sure anyone buying her babies knows that there's Cal King in the mix - and that Cal Kings in the wild are snake eaters. Not for to be co-housed without supervision!

You can see a little of the Cali King influence in her head - but I'd guess she's actually more like 12.5% Cal King, 25% _Emoryi_ and 62.5% Corn (if Mum was a 50/50 cross of _Emoryi_ and Corn - she could be more corn than that)


----------



## daughterofthedarkness

Ssthisto said:


> Ahhh. So she's a Rootbeer Jungle or Copper Jungle (depending on whether you use the original American name for a non-amel emoryi/corn cross or the UK name). Interesting combination. Keep in mind you'll want to make sure anyone buying her babies knows that there's Cal King in the mix - and that Cal Kings in the wild are snake eaters. Not for to be co-housed without supervision!
> 
> right, so now i have a propper common name for her, thanks. rest assured i always properly mark up my hatchlings when they go for sale, so any potential buyers will be fully aware of the mix thats in there: victory:


----------



## cornmorphs

what the heck would you sell those as eh? lol


----------



## Ssthisto

Frosty Rootbeer Jungles?

Since the US name for a "fantasy" corn (grey rat X corn) is "Frosted"


----------



## daughterofthedarkness

Ssthisto said:


> Frosty Rootbeer Jungles?
> 
> Since the US name for a "fantasy" corn (grey rat X corn) is "Frosted"


cool name!!!! might just use that in the future lol


----------



## cornmorphs

oh yeah, i used to remember when fantasy was a morph lol..


----------



## wrapped_in_plastic

Righty picked up my new little girl today a ghost stripe motley (no known hets) so for future reference what would i get from
a) her and my amel stripe (unknown hets)
b) her and my anery het stripe, hypo and lav
and while i'm here
the amel stripe and a lav het motley
thank you : victory:


----------



## Ssthisto

Is your little girl a *motley* or is it a _stripe_? Or is it a possible *motley het stripe*?

*If she's a motley with a striped pattern (aka Zipper Motley) then:*

_Ghost Motley X Amel Stripe =_
100% Normal Motleys het Stripe, het amel, anery and hypo

_Ghost Motley X Anery het Stripe, Hypo, Lav =_
25% Anery het motley, hypo, possible het lav
25% Anery Motley het stripe, het hypo, possible het lav
25% Ghost het motley, possible het lav
25% Ghost Motley het stripe, possible het lav

*If she's a Ghost stripe, then:*

_Ghost Stripe X Amel Stripe =_
100% Normal Stripes, het amel, anery and hypo

_Ghost Stripe X Anery het Stripe, Hypo, Lav =_
25% Anery het stripe, hypo, possible het lav
25% Anery Stripe, het hypo, possible het lav
25% Ghost het stripe, possible het lav
25% Ghost Stripe possible het lav

*And lastly, if she's a Ghost Motley het Stripe, then:*

_Ghost Motley het Stripe X Amel Stripe =_
50% Normal Motley het stripe, het amel, anery and hypo
50% Normal Stripe, het amel, anery and hypo

_Ghost Motley het Stripe X Anery het Stripe, Hypo, Lav =_
25% Anery het either stripe or motley but not both, het hypo, possible het lav
12.5% Anery Motley het Stripe, het hypo, possible het lav
12.5% Anery Stripe, het hypo, possible het lav
25% Ghost het stripe or motley but not both, possible het lav
12.5% Ghost Motley het stripe, possible het lav
12.5% Ghost Stripe possible het lav

*Your Amel stripe crossed to a Lavender het Motley will produce:*
50% Normal het stripe, lavender and Amel
50% Normal Motley het stripe, het lavender and amel.


----------



## wrapped_in_plastic

Well i brought her off a classified on here as ghost motley striped, i did wonder if there was such a thing lol, just as i thought i was getting better! heres a piccy if this helps?








thanx for all the help


----------



## Ssthisto

Difficult to tell. I don't THINK she's a stripe (though motleys don't usually fade out so much towards the tail, she's got the 'teeth' in the pattern that indicate motley) ... but there's only one way to be sure.

Breeding trials  The fastest trial is, of course, to breed her to the Amel Stripe - that way, if you get all motley offspring, you know she's a Motley, if you get all stripe offspring, you know she's a Stripe, and if you get motleys AND stripes you know she's a Motley het Stripe


----------



## wrapped_in_plastic

In that case was £60 overpriced for what i have? damn me and my weakness for a cute corn face :lol2:


----------



## madaboutreptiles

wrapped_in_plastic said:


> In that case was £60 overpriced for what i have? damn me and my weakness for a cute corn face :lol2:


£60 is reasonable for her....I think you did ok mate....nice one


----------



## Ssthisto

wrapped_in_plastic said:


> In that case was £60 overpriced for what i have? damn me and my weakness for a cute corn face :lol2:


Given that's what my local shop charges for a snow, you've done well.

Especially if she's DEFINITELY a female - nothing wrong with a ghost with a pattern mutation, whether it be motley or stripe!


----------



## cornmorphs

wow what a mess lol...
nah i just dont like the stripe/motley mix


----------



## Ian.g

ok well i have my crimsons,a female anery het snow soon to have a pair of lavs het hypo and am going to eventually get a pair of butter motleys and a female normal stripe...what sort of things could i get out of this menagerie? :lol2:


----------



## Ssthisto

Well, excluding crosses that will only make het-for-somethings and no visual morphs:

Crimson to Crimson = Crimson
Lavender het Hypo to Crimson = Hypo (possibly crimson) het lavender _and _Normal (possibly Miami) het lavender
Butter Motley to Butter Motley = Butter Motley
Butter Motley to Normal Stripe = Normal Motley het Stripe, het amel and caramel


----------



## Ian.g

cool....thanks for that, the lav het hypo to crimson sounds like a pretty good bag of hets to play around with and eventualy throw some stripe in there mmm:lol2:


----------



## boakid

hi

what would i get from breeding a male snow to a female green snow.


----------



## Ssthisto

Only thing you can guarantee is "Snow".

Green-spot snow is a selectively bred thing - take the greenest two snakes you can find, breed them, keep the greenest offspring, breed those, and so on.


----------



## twodogs

boakid said:


> hi
> 
> what would i get from breeding a male snow to a female green snow.





Ssthisto said:


> Only thing you can guarantee is "Snow".
> 
> Green-spot snow is a selectively bred thing - take the greenest two snakes you can find, breed them, keep the greenest offspring, breed those, and so on.


 
about right really ....bred snows this year ..a poss "coral" to a strawberry ..had a real nice clutch of really pink babies


----------



## boakid

cheers

i have a male green snow that will be ready next year so i will pair those up next year.


----------



## Ssthisto

boakid said:


> cheers
> 
> i have a male green snow that will be ready next year so i will pair those up next year.


You'll have to show us what the babies turn out like. I'm still waiting for a proper lime-green corn


----------



## boakid

sure will

not long now for the snow X green snow eggs to hatch, just wondered what i would get before they hatched really, and im gunna try the green snow X green snow this year coming. fingers crossed for some nice looking snows in about 10 days.

cheers


----------



## boakid

here is a pic of my male green snow.
not the best of pics but it shows the green a bit, its more green than the pic shows.









cheers


----------



## cornmorphs

the yanks have neon, which looks pretty cool


----------



## wohic

I have been offered the use of a male blood het pewter.

thinking either get a pewter or blizzard female for him, any other suggestions
(with a top whack of £250 ish price tag so may have to go for a het rather than a visual, but who knows i may get lucky)


----------



## Ssthisto

For £250 you might be able to get BOTH a blizzard AND a pewter - or at least a charcoal het pewter


----------



## morellia_an_me

*what would i get??*

i have (i think) a male candycane and a female amel 
grateful for any insight thx


----------



## asnakecalled?

as a candycane is a selectively bred amel all the hatchlings will be amels


----------



## matty

is there a website which tells you all this info? because theres loads i want to look into, hopfully getting a few more corns in the next few months & just want to know what im better off getting..thanks..


----------



## morellia_an_me

asnakecalled? said:


> as a candycane is a selectively bred amel all the hatchlings will be amels


thankyou


----------



## Skar's Royals

*which do i breed?*

In your opinion what would best to keep and breed from the following corns if bred together? Oh i have male and females of each!

Snow Stripe 
Amel Stripe
Anery Stripe
Snow Motley
Amel Motley
Anery Motley 


And of the above what would be best to breed to a Lavender Het Motley and to a Bloodred Het Lav Motley?

Cheers


----------



## Ssthisto

I personally would keep the stripes separate from the motleys - so I'd breed the striped ones together... probably keep a snow stripe male and a female anery stripe and a female amel stripe. Same goes for the motleys, keep a male who has both genes making snow and females that have either one.

I would personally breed the AMELS to the Lavender/het lavenders - whether you used stripe OR motley - because then you will get animals who are het for opal motley and which are not necessarily Anerythristics as well.


----------



## Skar's Royals

Superb

Thanks for that. So i assume if i bred the offspring of the Amel Stripe x Lavender Het Motley i would then get the Opal Motleys?


----------



## Ssthisto

Well, Amel Stripe X Lavender het Motley =

50% Motley het Stripe, het Amel, Lavender
50% Normal het Amel, Lavender, Stripe.

If you kept your Motley het Stripe babies, then:

27/64 = Normal Motley (poss het stripe, amel, lavender)
9/64 = Normal Stripe (poss het amel, lavender)
9/64 = Amel Motley (poss het stripe, amel)
9/64 = Lavender Motley (poss het stripe, amel)
3/64 = Amel Stripe
3/64 = Lavender Stripe
3/64 = Opal Motley
1/64 = Opal Stripe


----------



## Skar's Royals

Ooooh I am liking the look of that clutch :grin1:

Shame it'll take a few years to get it though


----------



## Ghostface

Just curious...

Currently got a Ghost corn (female), no hets as far as we know as the pet shop we got her from said they'd find out from their breeder and sort of never did :-x

Next on the list is either a Snow Stripe, or Blizzard.

If in a couple of years we let the Ghost do the dirty deed with either of those, any idea what would pop out? : victory:


----------



## captaincaveman

Ghostface said:


> Just curious...
> 
> Currently got a Ghost corn (female), no hets as far as we know as the pet shop we got her from said they'd find out from their breeder and sort of never did :-x
> 
> Next on the list is either a Snow Stripe, or Blizzard.
> 
> If in a couple of years we let the Ghost do the dirty deed with either of those, any idea what would pop out? : victory:


well to the snow stripe you'd get anery het amel, hypo and stripe

to the blizzard you'd get normals het blizzard(amel and charcoal), het ghost(hypo and anery)


----------



## Ghostface

captaincaveman said:


> well to the snow stripe you'd get anery het amel, hypo and stripe
> 
> to the blizzard you'd get normals het blizzard(amel and charcoal), het ghost(hypo and anery)


Thaaank you :no1:


----------



## matty

matty__=) said:


> is there a website which tells you all this info? because theres loads i want to look into, hopfully getting a few more corns in the next few months & just want to know what im better off getting..thanks..


..?


----------



## cornmorphs

there are a few programmes you can use that will help you play about with morphs.
some you might need to know a few things like a 'caramel amel'is a butter or an 'amel anery' is a snow for instance as they are often discribed as i have just put... but overall they are very good


----------



## matty

ok thanks..ill do a google now then


----------



## Diego

Jus enquiring for hardwicki, how would u produce reverse okeetee's?
An how do u produce plasma bloodreds?
Cheers


----------



## Ssthisto

Diego said:


> Jus enquiring for hardwicki, how would u produce reverse okeetee's?
> An how do u produce plasma bloodreds?
> Cheers


Reverse Okees are selectively bred amelanistics - you'd breed the amels you have with the widest white borders to produce more.

"plasmas" (AKA Lavender Bloodred) are produced in the second generation of having bred a Lavender to a Bloodred.


----------



## Skar's Royals

While your there Ssthisto what would be the outcome of Lavender Het Motley and Hypo x Charcoal Het Pewter? and the F2's?

Cheers :no1:


----------



## Ssthisto

First generation you'd get:

Normals het Lavender and Charcoal, possible het motley, hypo, bloodred.

If you lucked out and picked the offspring (one in a large number) that ARE het for all three possibles ... you could get allsorts. Bloodred you can sometimes "see" the ones who carry the trait - they have a sort of "zipper" pattern on their belly. If you picked THOSE out for your keepers...

In a practical sense, though, you could ONLY count on getting Charcoal Lavenders, Charcoals, Lavenders and Normals, maybe Pewters, Lavender Bloodreds, Bloodreds and Lavender/Charcoal Bloods without keeping back several entire clutches AND doing a lot of test-breeding to find out which animals WERE het for hypo and motley.


----------



## hayley_o

*I'm getting a charcoal het pewter hatchling at the weekend. I'd love to breed her when she's old enough, and I'm thinking of joining the corn run for next year so I can buy a male to go with her. I love lots of the morphs and have no idea which one I would choose.*

*So just wondering, what morphs would be a good idea to buy, to breed with a charcoal het pewter? What interesting morphs could I get from them?*

*Thanks! : victory:*


----------



## Ssthisto

Well, to get any morphs, you'd want something that carries either Bloodred or Charcoal. So...

Blizzard
Pewter
Bloodred het Charcoal(AKA "het pewter")

If you're willing to wait for the second generation of offspring, you could try introducing a pattern gene - like an Amel Stripe - to get Charcoal Stripes, Blizzard Stripes and possible Charcoal Striped Bloods or Blizzard Striped Bloods (if you picked the babies to keep that were het Bloodred from your charcoal het bloodred)


----------



## Skar's Royals

Is Anery Lavender better known as something else?


----------



## Ssthisto

wrecexotics said:


> Is Anery Lavender better known as something else?


Nope 

It is just Anery Lavender at this point.


----------



## Skar's Royals

Who decides what it could be called then??

The Snake God's :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Ssthisto

wrecexotics said:


> Who decides what it could be called then??
> 
> The Snake God's :Na_Na_Na_Na:


First we need a reliable way to tell the difference between a Lavender and an Anery Lavender from hatching.

Then, I am sure that someone will start calling it one thing, someone else will start calling it something else, and whichever name the market as a whole likes best will be what the morph winds up being called.


----------



## Skar's Royals

Ah so if there is a definitive difference between the two then the Anery Lavender will then be known as a morph in its own right.
Has anyone got or seen an Anery Lavender?


----------



## Ssthisto

I've seen an Anery Lavender - and he looked just like the photos of just-plain-lavenders I have seen. Certainly he did not look distinctive, and his owner, until she got 50% anery-based offspring when crossed to an Amel Stripe het Anery (and 100% anery-based offspring when crossed to a Snow) did not know he was homozygous anery.


----------



## Skar's Royals

So Anery Lavender seems a pointless breeding route to go down then. What in your opinion is a good route using the Anery gene? whats the most sought after anery based Corn? 
I think its been said somewhere before but i like the idea of an Anery Type Candy Cane, is that possible?


----------



## captaincaveman

wrecexotics said:


> Ah so if there is a definitive difference between the two then the Anery Lavender will then be known as a morph in its own right.
> Has anyone got or seen an Anery Lavender?


 
well i believe mine to be an anery lav:lol2:, it was pointed out to me by 3 different people, maybe she is, maybe she isn't but she doesn't look like the usual non anery lav, mine was never the mocha colour as a baby, the nearest look to her as a baby was a ghost hatchling(with the lav sheen)


----------



## Ssthisto

wrecexotics said:


> So Anery Lavender seems a pointless breeding route to go down then. What in your opinion is a good route using the Anery gene? whats the most sought after anery based Corn?
> I think its been said somewhere before but i like the idea of an Anery Type Candy Cane, is that possible?


It might well be.

I know that if I were going to try it I would get the nicest, cleanest Miamis I could find, and breed them to the highest-contrast black-and-white Anerys I could find. Keep the cleanest-looking most Miami-like hets, then breed those together to get Anery that will hopefully retain clean stark silver backgrounds... and then gradually breed for the palest background colour.

Unfortunately, the route that got SOME of the really nice clean Candy Canes out there would not necessarily work for Anery Canes - simply because Emoryi blood turns the blacks into browns on Anery morphs.


----------



## Asha

OK, I have no clue on genetics at all - I'm hoping for a nice surprise when I start breeding, as I have no idea on either of their hets... but what would I get from:

Amel (male) x Strawberry Snow (female)


----------



## captaincaveman

Asha said:


> OK, I have no clue on genetics at all - I'm hoping for a nice surprise when I start breeding, as I have no idea on either of their hets... but what would I get from:
> 
> Amel (male) x Strawberry Snow (female)


with ignoring hets you would get 100% amel het anery:no1:


----------



## Asha

captaincaveman said:


> with ignoring hets you would get 100% amel het anery:no1:


Ooh, het anery? that's a surprise.

hopefully there'll be some lurking hets since I don't know either snake's history. will have to wait and see!!


----------



## captaincaveman

Asha said:


> Ooh, het anery? that's a surprise.
> 
> hopefully there'll be some lurking hets since I don't know either snake's history. will have to wait and see!!


 
well the het anerys from the snow. If you got het anery in your amel too you'll get some snows also:no1:


----------



## wrapped_in_plastic

ok still crappy at this so what would i get from
anery het lav, stripe and hypo
hypo het ghost, bloodred and stripe


----------



## Plutino

wrapped_in_plastic said:


> ok still crappy at this so what would i get from
> anery het lav, stripe and hypo
> hypo het ghost, bloodred and stripe


don't know the percentages offhand, but lots of normals with het anery and hypo
some Anerys het hypo, some hypos het anery, some ghosts
then a small amount of anery stripes het hypo and hypo stripes het anery
then a smaller amount of ghost stripes

the whole clutch would be 50% het bloodred and lavander (ie 25% would be het both)
all the non stripes would be 50% het stripe...

I think that's about it? I'm sure someone's gonna correct me


----------



## Ssthisto

Plutino said:


> the whole clutch would be 50% het bloodred and lavander (ie 25% would be het both)
> all the non stripes would be 50% het stripe...
> 
> I think that's about it? I'm sure someone's gonna correct me


Almost right, Plutino... except that the non-stripes will be 66% het stripe, not 50%. You get 66ers when you breed two 100% het animals - and 50%ers when you breed one 100% het to another non-het.

Percentagewise, you should get:

18.75% (3 in 16) Normal het hypo and anery, possible het Lavender, Bloodred, Stripe
18.75% Hypo het Anery, possible het lavender, bloodred, stripe
18.75% Anery het hypo, possible het lavender, bloodred, stripe
18.75% Ghost possible het lavender, bloodred, stripe
6.25% (1 in 16) Normal Stripe het hypo and anery, possible het Lavender and Bloodred
6.25% Hypo Stripe het anery, possible het lavender, bloodred
6.25% Anery Stripe het hypo, possible het lavender, bloodred, stripe
6.25% Ghost Stripe possible het lavender, bloodred


----------



## wrapped_in_plastic

hmm quite a few morphs then  i'm still so undecided i'm probably looking for another male and 2 or 3 females but i'm so crap at genetics which dosn't help matters, so far i now have
females
ghost motley/stripe weird mix (unknown hets)
lav het motley
males
anery het hypo, stripe and lav
amel stripe (unknown hets)
i'm considering an opal undecided on male or female, but apart from that and possibly that hypo i'm lost
thank you guys for all your help


----------



## Ssthisto

Hmmm. I'd probably get the opal as a female to put to your lavender-and-then-some carrier male. 

The amel stripe male might make some nice things put to the ghost motley female


----------



## wrapped_in_plastic

so what would i get from the anery het hypo, stripe and lav and an opal? sorry for all the q's


----------



## Ssthisto

You'd get:

50% normal het anery, amel, lavender, possible het hypo and stripe
50% lavender het anery, amel, possible het hypo and stripe

And if your Anery is het amel (which is NOT stretching the bounds of imagination) you might get opals too.

Adding to this, many lavenders carry Anery - so your opal might - in which case you might get anery, snow or glacier


----------



## Trice

Probably been asked. But.. How do you get striped in corns?


----------



## SuperTed

buy them :lol2:


----------



## Ssthisto

Trice said:


> Probably been asked. But.. How do you get striped in corns?


Breed a stripe carrier to another stripe carrier.

Unlike Everglades Rat Snakes (which start out blotched, and develop stripes as they age) a striped corn starts out striped at hatching.

Stripe is a pattern gene that is recessive to Motley and also to normal. 

You MIGHT get true Stripes if you breed a stripe to a Motley - and that means that your motley is het for stripe.


----------



## Trice

But how were stripes started originally? 
Just curious


----------



## Ssthisto

Chance mutation. Maybe a wild-caught animal that was striped. 

Dunno for sure. We DO know that the gene that makes Everglades into striped snakes isn't the same one, though - otherwise, striped corns would start out blotched (and they don't.)


----------



## Trice

Ssthisto said:


> Chance mutation. Maybe a wild-caught animal that was striped.
> 
> Dunno for sure. We DO know that the gene that makes Everglades into striped snakes isn't the same one, though - otherwise, striped corns would start out blotched (and they don't.)


Ahhhhh. Thanks


----------



## quizicalkat

*The most recessive colour?*

Ok - in rabbits the most recessive colour I came across was blue eyed white - you could put it to any non-carrier and you would get the other parents genes (plus a white spot on occaison - but thats beside the point) the only way to achieve a blue eyed white was to mate 2 carriers. It was also useful for detemining the recessive genes in a line - hets.

So my question is - please what colour would do this best in cornsnakes?

thank you:notworthy:


----------



## Ssthisto

quizicalkat said:


> Ok - in rabbits the most recessive colour I came across was blue eyed white - you could put it to any non-carrier and you would get the other parents genes (plus a white spot on occaison - but thats beside the point) the only way to achieve a blue eyed white was to mate 2 carriers. It was also useful for detemining the recessive genes in a line - hets.
> 
> So my question is - please what colour would do this best in cornsnakes?
> 
> thank you:notworthy:


There really isn't a "most recessive" colour in corns. 

People use snows to test out whether an unknown-genetics normal carries anery or amel, but that's not quite what you're getting at, is it?

What I'm hearing is something like the "Extreme non-agouti" in mice - the most recessive gene on the Agouti locus. Breed an a^e/a^e to any other colour of mouse and you'll get visuals of whatever agouti-locus gene they are or carry. But that's because the Agouti locus has about eight different gene possibilities; most corn mutations have a "yes/no" switch instead of a clock-dial switch. It's either "normal" or "mutant" rather than "Normal", "Recessive-to-normal-but-dominant-to-a-different-mutant" and so on. And from what I understand, Blue-Eyed-White in rabbits can actually hide the Himalayan gene - so you could theoretically get red-eyed whites out of a BEW X BEW pairing if they both carry Himalayan. That's because it's a different locus and plays by different rules.

The only vague equivalent would be the Stripe pattern gene - it's the least dominant mutation on the Blotched/Motley/Stripe locus. It's recessive to motley, and also recessive to normal blotched patterning. But breeding a normal to a Striped Normal wouldn't help you find out if your other animal was carrying Charcoal or Lavender, for example.


----------



## quizicalkat

ok - so if I was to put a snow stripe to a say crimson I'd het crimsons het form snow and stripe...... and if I was to put one of those babies back to the snow I would get...ummm snow - snow stripe - crimson? would i also get crimson stripe?


----------



## Ssthisto

quizicalkat said:


> ok - so if I was to put a snow stripe to a say crimson I'd het crimsons het form snow and stripe...... and if I was to put one of those babies back to the snow I would get...ummm snow - snow stripe - crimson? would i also get crimson stripe?


Actually, what you'd get is:

Normals het Hypo, Anery, Amel and Stripe. Some or all of these normals may be Miami-ish in appearance, with tan to grey background colouring.

Crimson is Hypomelanistic Miami.
Snow Stripe is Anerythristic Amelanistic Stripe.

So your second generation could produce:

Normal/Miami
Normal/Miami Stripe
Hypo/Crimson 
Hypo/Crimson Stripe
Amel
Amel Stripe
Anery
Anery Stripe
Snow
Snow Stripe
Ghost (Anery + Hypo)
Ghost Stripe (Anery + Hypo + Stripe)
Hypo Amel
Hypo Amel Stripe
and
Coral Snow (Anery + Hypo + Amel)
Coral Snow Stripe (The full monty - and about a 1/256 chance.)


----------



## ReptileObsession

snow corn male with amel female (both parents unknown)

or 

snow corn male with anery female (both parents unknown)


----------



## Ssthisto

Snow is Anerythristic Amelanistic.

Therefore, without any further information about them:

Snow X Amel = 
100% Amel het Anery.

Snow X Anery =
100% Anery het Amel.

Now, if you get anything else (like, say, a Snow) you know that the female in question is carrying the gene they don't show (the amel is het anery, or the anery is het amel).


----------



## ReptileObsession

thank you very much  i must be getting the hang of this, because that made sence lol.
im gessing amel x anery would produce normals right?

and that my snow corn male is a handy lil guy for finding hidden genes? 
x


----------



## quizicalkat

Ssthisto said:


> Actually, what you'd get is:
> 
> Normals het Hypo, Anery, Amel and Stripe. Some or all of these normals may be Miami-ish in appearance, with tan to grey background colouring.
> 
> Crimson is Hypomelanistic Miami.
> Snow Stripe is Anerythristic Amelanistic Stripe.
> 
> So your second generation could produce:
> 
> Normal/Miami
> Normal/Miami Stripe
> Hypo/Crimson
> Hypo/Crimson Stripe
> Amel
> Amel Stripe
> Anery
> Anery Stripe
> Snow
> Snow Stripe
> Ghost (Anery + Hypo)
> Ghost Stripe (Anery + Hypo + Stripe)
> Hypo Amel
> Hypo Amel Stripe
> and
> Coral Snow (Anery + Hypo + Amel)
> Coral Snow Stripe (The full monty - and about a 1/256 chance.)


wow thanks for that - I am now even more confused :lol2:


----------



## spinnerpete

dont no if any 1 has put this up yet but what if i put my creamsicle motley with my buttercream or if i put my opal het motley with my lavender ?:2thumb:


----------



## Ssthisto

Creamsicle Motley X Buttercream =
100% Creamsicle het Caramel / Motley

Opal het motley X Lavender =
100% Lavender het amel, possible het motley


----------



## becka

ok i know what my babies are het for now, so if any one wants to help! dont know if i will yet but would like to have a go a breeding in a few years:no1:

ok, amel male, poss het anery x snow female,

and normal male, het anery, poss het amel x snow female

any ideas what they would produce? thanks


----------



## eeji

becka said:


> ok i know what my babies are het for now, so if any one wants to help! dont know if i will yet but would like to have a go a breeding in a few years:no1:
> 
> ok, amel male, poss het anery x snow female,
> 
> and normal male, het anery, poss het amel x snow female
> 
> any ideas what they would produce? thanks


amel x snow = 100% amel het anery
amel het anery x snow = 50% amel het anery, 50% snow

normal het anery x snow = 50% normal het amel and anery, 50% anery het amel
normal het anery and amel x snow = 25% normal het anery and amel, 25% amel het anery, 25% anery het amel, 25% snow


----------



## Leo-Lover

got another 1 what about my opal het motley male and snopal female : victory:


----------



## eeji

Leo-Lover said:


> got another 1 what about my opal het motley male and snopal female : victory:


very nice!!!!!

50% opal het anery
50% opal het anery & motley

(...do you have pics of the opal and snopal, i love those )


----------



## Leo-Lover

eeji said:


> very nice!!!!!
> 
> 50% opal het anery
> 50% opal het anery & motley
> 
> (...do you have pics of the opal and snopal, i love those )


this is actually my other half's (spinnerpete) opal


----------



## eeji

veeeery nice, ta for posting


----------



## spinnerpete

eeji said:


> veeeery nice, ta for posting


thanks i bought him from athravan hes a serpenco import hes my favourite:mf_dribble:


----------



## 10371

What would i get if i breed the following 

PewterXSnow
OpalXSnow
SnopalXSnow
PewterXOpal
PewterXSnopal

Thanks


----------



## cornmorphs

PewterXSnow... normals het amel, anery, snow, charcoal and blood.. thats not the official terms but thats the breakdown of the genes.

OpalXSnow.. lost my corn prog.. so i'll answer then wait for ssthisto to corect me lol... mainly amels

SnopalXSnow.. probably all amels

PewterXOpal.. normals with het for blood, charcoal, amel and lavender 

PewterXSnopal.. same as top one but with het anery A too


----------



## toyah

OpalXSnow - amel het anery, lavender
SnopalXSnow - snow het lavender


----------



## cornmorphs

toyah said:


> OpalXSnow - amel het anery, lavender
> SnopalXSnow - snow het lavender


thats what i ment lol.. amel dur


----------



## spinnerpete

what could i expect from 

opalxcandy cane?


----------



## eeji

opal x candycane = 100% amel het lavender


----------



## JAM3S

what could i expect % wise from..

Lavender het hypo x hypo het lavender
Hypo lav x hypo het lavender

cheers


----------



## Ssthisto

Lav het hypo X hypo het lav:

25% Normal het hypo lavender
25% Lavender het hypo
25% Hypo het lavender
25% Hypo Lavender.

Hypo Lavender X Hypo het Lavender =
50% Hypo het Lavender
50% Hypo Lavender.


----------



## JAM3S

cheers for that ssthisto : victory:


----------



## hayley_o

I think this is gonna be a really obvious one for the people in the know about genetics! But, what would be the results of charcoal het bloodred x charcoal het bloodred?

Is bloodred is the same as pewter & diffused? This part has got me so confused!


----------



## captaincaveman

hayley_o said:


> I think this is gonna be a really obvious one for the people in the know about genetics! But, what would be the results of charcoal het bloodred x charcoal het bloodred?
> 
> Is bloodred is the same as pewter & diffused? This part has got me so confused!


 
that would give you

50% charcoal het bloodred
25% pewter
25% charcoal

pewter is a combination of bloodred(diffused) and charcoal

Ideally bloodred should be assigned to diffused snakes that are selectevely bred for redness, but most use bloodred to mean any diffused:no1:


----------



## jamie-c

hi what will i get with 

Male Bloodred Het Pewter and Female Classic Hypo(unknown hets)?

or anery male with classic hypo female unknown hets but have produced rootbeers and creams


----------



## Ssthisto

No such thing as a "Classic Hypo" - it's either a Hypo or it's a Normal.

If we assume it's a hypo, you get the following if you cross it to a Bloodred het Charcoal:

100% Normal het bloodred, hypo, 50% chance het charcoal.

If you cross the Anery male to the hypo, you'll get:
100% Normal het Anery, Hypo

If the female has produced Rootbeers and Creams, does that mean she was BRED to a creamsicle....?

Rootbeer and Creamsicle are not morphs, they're indications that the animal is a hybrid Corn/Great Plains Ratsnake.


----------



## jamie-c

Ssthisto said:


> No such thing as a "Classic Hypo" - it's either a Hypo or it's a Normal.
> 
> If we assume it's a hypo, you get the following if you cross it to a Bloodred het Charcoal:
> 
> 100% Normal het bloodred, hypo, 50% chance het charcoal.
> 
> If you cross the Anery male to the hypo, you'll get:
> 100% Normal het Anery, Hypo
> 
> If the female has produced Rootbeers and Creams, does that mean she was BRED to a creamsicle....?
> 
> Rootbeer and Creamsicle are not morphs, they're indications that the animal is a hybrid Corn/Great Plains Ratsnake.


hi thats what i have been told (hypo classic) im not sure as im just going by what i have been told if i post a pic could anyone identify them for me ?


----------



## sami

while the clever people are out can someone work me the percentages out for..

bloodred het hypo lav x bloodred het hypo lav 

Thankee.

Mason


----------



## hayley_o

captaincaveman said:


> that would give you
> 
> 50% charcoal het bloodred
> 25% pewter
> 25% charcoal
> 
> pewter is a combination of bloodred(diffused) and charcoal
> 
> Ideally bloodred should be assigned to diffused snakes that are selectevely bred for redness, but most use bloodred to mean any diffused:no1:


Thanks for your help & for clearing that up for me! Been wondering for ages! : victory:


----------



## captaincaveman

quixotic_axolotl said:


> while the clever people are out can someone work me the percentages out for..
> 
> bloodred het hypo lav x bloodred het hypo lav
> 
> Thankee.
> 
> Mason


 
bit of a longer one:no1:

25% bloodred het hypo het lav
12.5% lavender bloodred het hypo (plasma het hypo)
12.5% hypo bloodred het lav
12.5% bloodred het hypo
12.5% bloodred het lav
6.25% hypo lavender bloodred (hypo plasma)
6.25% lavender bloodred (plasma)
6.25% hypo bloodred
6.25% bloodred


----------



## captaincaveman

Ssthisto said:


> No such thing as a "Classic Hypo" - it's either a Hypo or it's a Normal.
> 
> If we assume it's a hypo, you get the following if you cross it to a Bloodred het Charcoal:
> 
> 100% Normal het bloodred, hypo, 50% chance het charcoal.
> 
> If you cross the Anery male to the hypo, you'll get:
> 100% Normal het Anery, Hypo
> 
> If the female has produced Rootbeers and Creams, does that mean she was BRED to a creamsicle....?
> 
> Rootbeer and Creamsicle are not morphs, they're indications that the animal is a hybrid Corn/Great Plains Ratsnake.


 
i wasn't sure how to comment on that one, as i can see what a hypo classic could potentially mean, in respect to a hypomelanistic form of a carolina, as opposed to a hypo form of a miami or okeetee, but yeah, i totally agree as far as names go, a hypo usually means a normal hypo or as you rightly say just "hypo":no1:


----------



## spinnerpete

rite my rack just had a mass break out ive now found all my corns but my opal got into my creamsicle and shes seems to be getting bigger and was wondering 1 could she be gravid this early in the year and 2 if she is what off spring am i looking at getting?


----------



## Ssthisto

Opal X Creamsicle = 100% Creamsicle het Lavender.

Yes, she could well be gravid.

Edit: Would a homozygous lavender Emoryi cross be a Parma Violet?


----------



## chellenjon

*what's the morph*

any idea's on this corn morph?


----------



## kennedykrew

well my guess is hypo normal motleyxstripe


----------



## marc p

what do you get if you cross a carolina and a snow


----------



## Mark75

I just read through this and now I need a paracetmol.


----------



## Ssthisto

marc p said:


> what do you get if you cross a carolina and a snow


Normal (AKA "Carolina") het anery and amel.


----------



## amandy

can you tell me how creamcicles fit into all this? are'nt they hybrids? need to study this all again, but this question kept nagging me.


----------



## cornmorphs

amandy said:


> can you tell me how creamcicles fit into all this? are'nt they hybrids? need to study this all again, but this question kept nagging me.


they are, yes.


----------



## CBR1100XX

What am I looking at for this pairing Male Butter Motley to Female Amel Motley also the Male Butter Motley to a Female Anery Motley

Didn't really want to pair these but haven't found a Female Butter for the dude so it will be either of these two ladies that will will have to do for this year.


----------



## Ssthisto

Butter motley to Amel motley = 100% Amel Motley het Caramel. 

Butter motley to Anery Motley = 100% Motley het Amel, Anery, Caramel.


----------



## Plutino

That reminds me I had a question too,
What does Caramel and Anery make? I was under the impression it didn't look any different to one or the other but forget which...so Amel + Anery + Caramel = looks like snow or looks like butter?

I remember someone saying that no one works with the 2 together because it was 'useless and unpredictible' but wasn't sure why exactly. I guess if you have a snake with a hidden trait it could mess up future projects?...but surely if it looks like a snow, you could then use a male triple **** Amel/Anery/Caramel for butter or snow females?


----------



## eeji

Plutino said:


> That reminds me I had a question too,
> What does Caramel and Anery make? I was under the impression it didn't look any different to one or the other but forget which...so Amel + Anery + Caramel = looks like snow or looks like butter?
> 
> I remember someone saying that no one works with the 2 together because it was 'useless and unpredictible' but wasn't sure why exactly. I guess if you have a snake with a hidden trait it could mess up future projects?...but surely if it looks like a snow, you could then use a male triple **** Amel/Anery/Caramel for butter or snow females?


Rich Z at Serpenco tried this a good few years ago to try and make bright yellow and black corns, but all he got was caramel looking snakes (**** caramel and anery) because the caramel gene hid the anery gene.


----------



## pankthesnake

eeji said:


> Rich Z at Serpenco tried this a good few years ago to try and make bright yellow and black corns, but all he got was caramel looking snakes (**** caramel and anery) because the caramel gene hid the anery gene.


I was under the impression that it was the opposite of this and the anery gene hid the caramel influence.


----------



## eeji

:blush: oops!! maybe! sorry, I'm a little tipsy tonight!!


----------



## pankthesnake

eeji said:


> :blush: oops!! maybe! sorry, I'm a little tipsy tonight!!


according to the cornsnake morph guide it is anery that masks caramel.

at least you can blame it on the beer lol


----------



## Ssthisto

That said, apparently the Anery Caramels stayed CLEAN black and silver - much less yellow than you'd expect, much less brown out ....


----------



## ian14

I'll try here as I have had different views, would like to try and find out what I am likely to get!

I have a male pastel striped ghost, male "super hypo" ghost, female creamsicle and female hurricane motley anery.

Which would be the best pairings? The best suggestion was to put the striped male with the motley, and then pair the others together. Would you agree, and what are the offspring likely to be? I have been told normal looking but double hets, to a mixture of stripes/motleys/ zigzags, to "who knows, most corns have got a bit of everything in them, wait and see"!!

Thanks!


----------



## Ssthisto

Right, the Striped ghost is homozygous for Anery, Hypo and Stripe. That's ALL you can count on in a breeding situation - "pastel" is a selectively bred trait that might not show up in the offspring.

The "super hypo" ghost is... a light clean pastel Ghost homozygous for Anery and Hypo.

A creamsicle is an amelanistic hybrid of Great Plains ratsnake and Cornsnake.

The Anery Motley is homozygous for Anery and either homozygous for motley or heterozygous motley, heterozygous stripe. The only way to tell is to breed her to the Striped Ghost; if you get all Anery Motley-looking offspring, she's probably homozygous motley (and the offspring are Anery Motley het stripe and hypo). If you get any true four-lined stripe offspring, you know she's an Anery Motley het Stripe; the motley babies will also be Anery Motley het stripe and hypo; the stripe babies will be Anery Stripe het hypo.

If you put the ghost to the Creamsicle you'll get Rootbeers het Anery, Hypo and Amel.


----------



## ian14

Excellent!

Thanks for the advise, look forward to seeing what they all turn out as then. Looks like I should have a nice mix.


----------



## Lostcorn

Hi

What might the following pairing give?

Normal stripe , poss. het anery,amel and hypo to amel stripe.

thanks

John


----------



## Ssthisto

You're guaranteed to get normal stripes het amel. If your normal stripe IS het amel, you might get amel stripes. I wouldn't count on anything else.


----------



## beege_3

Dont know if you are still doing this, but I am wondering what I could get from a butter x anery, if you have the time!


----------



## madaboutreptiles

Here's a corn one for you.....

female Charchol het Pewter x Male Hypo Motley

Cheers.........:notworthy:


----------



## intravenous

Palmanda said:


> Here's a corn one for you.....
> 
> female Charchol het Pewter x Male Hypo Motley
> 
> Cheers.........:notworthy:


50% normals het charcoal, bloodred, hypo and motley

50% normals het charcoal, hypo and motley


----------



## intravenous

beege_3 said:


> Dont know if you are still doing this, but I am wondering what I could get from a butter x anery, if you have the time!


100% normals het amel, caramel and anery


----------



## beege_3

Nice one thanks!


----------



## madaboutreptiles

intravenous said:


> 50% normals het charcoal, bloodred, hypo and motley
> 
> 50% normals het charcoal, hypo and motley


 
Thats what I figured.......could make an interesting project..


----------



## Lostcorn

OK

I have a male 06 caramel motley cornsnake.

Unfortunateley the female caramel motley that was planned to be his mate sadly died.

So , other than the obvious , another caramot female , is there another morph that would give worthwhile/interesting results with him?

John


----------



## Ssthisto

Anything caramel-based will give more caramel offspring; anything motley or stripe based will give motley offspring (and if your motley is het stripe, maybe stripe ones if you breed it to a stripe).

So you've got a range of choices.
Breed to an Amber and get caramels het amber motley.
Breed to a Butter and get caramels het amel motley.
Breed to a caramel stripe and get Caramel motley het stripes. 

Or breed to something else to get something interesting in the second generation - maybe a bloodred based morph or a lavender-based one?


----------



## cornmorphs

have you seen the results from rich z caramel to lavender project? they are awesome, only thing is it took 2 years for the snake to change


----------



## madaboutreptiles

Here's another one

Male Pewter x Female Normal Stripe


----------



## Ssthisto

Palmanda said:


> Here's another one
> 
> Male Pewter x Female Normal Stripe


100% Normal het Charcoal, Diffuse (AKA Bloodred), Stripe.


----------



## madaboutreptiles

Ssthisto said:


> 100% Normal het Charcoal, Diffuse (AKA Bloodred), Stripe.


 
that will be some nice Hatchlings for future projects...........:no1:


----------



## mitch2028

hi, hope you can help me im a bit rubbish with genetics but am looking at breeding my corns, the first female is a ghost, both parents were ghost and the second is carolina motley het for caramel.

so what would happen if i put a male caramel with both of them

or what would happen if i put a ghost with both of them and would it make for any interesting offspring? If not what male would go better with these 2?


----------



## amanda75

ghost to caramel - all normal het anery, hypo and caramel

carolina motley het caramel to caramel - half clutch normal het motley and caramel, other half caramel het motley

ghost to ghost - all ghost 

carolina motley het caramel to ghost - all normal het anery, hypo and motley, 50% poss het caramel

as for a male to go with *both* of them..... the 2 females you have don't share any of the same genetic traits. to get 'pretty' babies of out both of them using the same male in the first generation he'd need to show or carry some or all of the mutant genes the females have, so could turn out to be hard to find or expensive. 

think you need to decide what babies you're aiming for, then see whether you need one male with (visual or het) traits in common with each of the females, or a male for each of them, or a longer term project....


----------



## knz

*Help please*

Can some one please tell me what i would get if i put a Charcoal to a Lavender Corn

Thank you


----------



## DavidBra

Normals het Lavender and Charcoal


----------



## DavidBra

A few years ago I struggled with Genetics not because genetics is difficult but I had a concept of colours in my head that stopped the genetics rules getting in. One day the penny dropped and cleared my mind then all the tutorials on genetics make sense.
I think all the tutorials/idiots guides should include something like this first.

Colours

The first thing to get out of your head is that a red snake crossed with a white snake will make a pink snake. It does not work like that at all; it is not like mixing paint!

Do get it into your head that the colour genes do not make a colour; they simply hide a colour or exaggerate a colour. So every single corn snake is basically a normal colour they have red, black, a bit of yellow and they all have an undercoat colour not normally visible of white.

If you then give a snake say the Amel gene you are making the black transparent it is still there just transparent so the black goes and you can see the white undercoat making an Amel looking snake. If you then breed the Amel snake to a snake that has not got the Amel gene the babies will appear normal again. The Anery gene hides the red making it look black and a bit of the black mixing with the white undercoat to create the silver background. If you then give a snake both the Amel and Anery you are hiding both red and black leaving basically just the undercoat of white. You still have the little bit of yellow that increases with age along the sides. The Caramel gene is similar to Anery it mostly reduces the red but increases the yellow to give a gold and brown look. The Hypo type genes are a bit like Amel but rather than making the black transparent they make it semi transparent giving the snake a lighter look. e.g. a Ghost is a Hypo Anery, the Anery hides the red and the Hypo hides half the black.


----------



## paulh

DavidBra said:


> Colours
> 
> The first thing to get out of your head is that a red snake crossed with a white snake will make a pink snake. It does not work like that at all; it is not like mixing paint!


True. It is not like mixing paint.



DavidBra said:


> Do get it into your head that the colour genes do not make a colour; they simply hide a colour or exaggerate a colour. So every single corn snake is basically a normal colour they have red, black, a bit of yellow and they all have an undercoat colour not normally visible of white.


Actually, color genes do make color. The normal genes at many locations in the genome work together to produce red, black, white, etc. Mutant genes act like defective machines in an assembly line. If all the machines are working properly, the line outputs what is expected. If one machine is not working right, the line either outputs nothing or outputs something more or less different from what was expected. 



DavidBra said:


> If you then give a snake say the Amel gene you are making the black transparent it is still there just transparent so the black goes and you can see the white undercoat making an Amel looking snake.


There is a problem with this phrasing. It gives the impression that black pigment forms and then an extra step makes the black pigment invisible. From what we know of the biochemistry, the defective amelanistic mutant gene makes it impossible to make the black pigment at all.



DavidBra said:


> If you then breed the Amel snake to a snake that has not got the Amel gene the babies will appear normal again. The Anery gene hides the red making it look black and a bit of the black mixing with the white undercoat to create the silver background. If you then give a snake both the Amel and Anery you are hiding both red and black leaving basically just the undercoat of white. (snip)


It is more accurate to say that the anerythristic mutant gene makes it impossible to make orange/red pigment in the first place. There is no hiding of pigment. A snake that is both amelanistic and anerythristic cannot make black pigment and cannot make orange/red pigment.


----------



## DavidBra

Thanks Paul.

I know it may not be technicaly correct. but I feel all tutorials on understanding genetics miss out this idiot stage, that's how I thought of it. If you get to technical at this stage new people will loose the plot. 
Can someone re-write what I was trying to say to form the very first step in understanding genetics idiots guide.


----------



## Lostcorn

cornmorphs said:


> have you seen the results from rich z caramel to lavender project? they are awesome, only thing is it took 2 years for the snake to change


where can i see these?


----------



## chellenjon

*another corn id please*

hi, can someone id this corn morph please, ta
sorry for the blur!


----------



## Corny-Dawny

I have seen Chelles snake and it has a grey head and weird belly markings, I wondered if it could be het bloodred?


----------



## chellenjon

ta dawn, his mam was anery and pop was (i think) hypo.


----------



## knz

Can some one please tell me what i would get if i put a snow and a butter together thanks


----------



## eeji

knz said:


> Can some one please tell me what i would get if i put a snow and a butter together thanks


amels het anery & caramel


----------



## Lostcorn

Ssthisto said:


> Anything caramel-based will give more caramel offspring; anything motley or stripe based will give motley offspring (and if your motley is het stripe, maybe stripe ones if you breed it to a stripe).
> 
> So you've got a range of choices.
> Breed to an Amber and get caramels het amber motley.
> Breed to a Butter and get caramels het amel motley.
> Breed to a caramel stripe and get Caramel motley het stripes.
> 
> Or breed to something else to get something interesting in the second generation - maybe a bloodred based morph or a lavender-based one?


 
I have a lavender female and a lavender het hypo female.
If I put the caramel male to either of these what would I get in the first and second generation?

regards

John


----------



## kennedykrew

Lostcorn said:


> I have a lavender female and a lavender het hypo female.
> If I put the caramel male to either of these what would I get in the first and second generation?
> 
> regards
> 
> John


I think youd get norms het lavender, caramel pos het hypo 1st time round.
2nd gen would give you a whole bunch of possibilities and probably a bit of a headache with possible hets, as well as a load more normals


----------



## cornmorphs

after seeing rich Zs lavender caramel, this is a morph that interests me too...
not that i have the available means right now, dont even think i have an adult caramel, guess i could use butter


----------



## Lostcorn

cornmorphs said:


> after seeing rich Zs lavender caramel, this is a morph that interests me too...
> not that i have the available means right now, dont even think i have an adult caramel, guess i could use butter


I havent found the pics yet Nige.

What did you mean when you said it took two years for the snakes to change?


----------



## cornmorphs

i dont recall his exact words, but he said that he just kept the snake back, and one day he noticed a distinct change, i would think its in his gallery.


----------



## repkid

Can someone please tell me what a black motley and a carolina will produce.

Thanks


----------



## Ssthisto

Megabrad 666 said:


> Can someone please tell me what a black motley and a carolina will produce.
> 
> Thanks


A "black motley" is probably an Anery Motley, in which case you would expect to get all normals het for anery motley.


----------



## repkid

Sorry for such a silly question as I am completely new to genetics. but what does het mean?


----------



## deano2

please tell me the outcome of breeding a ghost with a normal het sulfer cheers


----------



## eeji

het is short for heterozygous. It means that the two copies of a given gene that are inherited (one from mum and one from dad) are different.

Because corn snake morphs (so far) are all recessive, this means that the two copies of the gene need to be the same to be visual.

Therefore a corn snake that is 'het for anery and motley' carry a copy of the anery gene and a copy of the motley gene, but it is hidden.


----------



## eeji

Ghost x het Sulfur =

100.00% Normal (het. Anerythristic, het. Hypomelanistic, 50% poss. het. Amelanistic, 50% poss. het. Bloodred, 50% poss. het. Caramel)


----------



## asnakecalled?

can you please tell me what ill get from a Gold Dust het Motley to a Caramel het Amel pairing


----------



## eeji

asnakecalled? said:


> can you please tell me what ill get from a Gold Dust het Motley to a Caramel het Amel pairing


50.00% Caramel (50% poss. het. Amelanistic, 50% poss. het. Ultra, 50% poss. het. Motley) 
25.00% Butter (50% poss. het. Motley) 
25.00% Golddust (50% poss. het. Motley)


----------



## chellenjon

hypo motley-stripe and ghost motley-stripe, not quite sure on this one, would all the offspring be motley-stripe or could i get something else?


----------



## eeji

chellenjon said:


> hypo motley-stripe and ghost motley-stripe, not quite sure on this one, would all the offspring be motley-stripe or could i get something else?


it all depends on what your 'motley stripes' are, they can be any one of the following, each will have a different outcome:

motley, showing a stripe like pattern (q-tip, ribbon etc)
motley het stripe, (or het motley, het stripe to be perfectly precise) showing a stripe like pattern (q-tip, ribbon etc)
stripe, showing a broken stripe pattern that looks a bit motley

motley-stripe in itself doesn't exist, it will be one of the above.


----------



## chellenjon

eeji said:


> it all depends on what your 'motley stripes' are, they can be any one of the following, each will have a different outcome:
> 
> motley, showing a stripe like pattern (q-tip, ribbon etc)
> motley het stripe, (or het motley, het stripe to be perfectly precise) showing a stripe like pattern (q-tip, ribbon etc)
> stripe, showing a broken stripe pattern that looks a bit motley
> 
> motley-stripe in itself doesn't exist, it will be one of the above.


thats why i put - there lol it was supposed to seperate them but it didn't work sorry, anyway thanks for your reply, my knowledge is very poor when it comes to genetics so how about i show you a pic, here's the ghost, the hypo is the same pattern.


----------



## toyah

The ghost is genetically a motley, so mated to another of the same pattern you'd get motleys, and potentially stripes if they both carry the stripe gene.

If both parents are ribbon motleys like the ghost then you have a good chance at producing ribbon motley babies too, but you could still get standard motleys as well.


----------



## chellenjon

thank you, i'll be picking the ghost up friday and i want to make my plans for next year, hopefully if i nerd up i'll know a bit more about them by then.
:2thumb:
does anyone know of any sites/books that explain genetics in simple terms for people like me?:blush:


----------



## Roewammi

ok I have a snow corn female coming and in the future I would like to know if i bred her with the followin, what would i get?

reverse okeetee

amel

butter corn

???


----------



## Ssthisto

Roewammi said:


> ok I have a snow corn female coming and in the future I would like to know if i bred her with the followin, what would i get?
> 
> reverse okeetee
> 
> amel
> 
> butter corn
> 
> ???


Amel het anery in the first two cases, amel het anery and caramel in the last.


----------



## Roewammi

thank you!
:no1:


----------



## Roewammi

bump 
:up:


----------



## paulskin

im a total beginner when i comes to this, so.........

i have a snow corn male,would like to breed it at age of maturity,what nice looking snakes could i go for(i like the white/albino kind)i will read more on genetics soon.only just decided i wnt to breed.


----------



## eeji

paulskin said:


> im a total beginner when i comes to this, so.........
> 
> i have a snow corn male,would like to breed it at age of maturity,what nice looking snakes could i go for(i like the white/albino kind)i will read more on genetics soon.only just decided i wnt to breed.


if you want anything other than normals in the first generation you will need an amel (to produce amel het anerys) or an anery (to produce anery het amels).

if you want snows in the F1 then put to another snow, or something else that is known to carry both amel and anery


----------



## Ssthisto

paulskin said:


> i have a snow corn male,would like to breed it at age of maturity,what nice looking snakes could i go for(i like the white/albino kind)i will read more on genetics soon.only just decided i wnt to breed.


If you like the white snakes - and want to produce something with a little more potential than "just a snow" in future - I'd suggest either a snow motley, snow stripe, Coral snow (hypo + snow), Glacier (Snow+lavender) or Avalanche (Snow+Diffuse/Bloodred) for your female. They're listed there pretty much in order of price - the Glaciers and Avalanches won't be cheap - but they'd add an extra het gene to your snow offspring that'd be nice in the second generation. All of your first generation offspring would be visual snows, which are het for the additional pattern or colour gene - motley, stripe, hypo, lavender or Diffused, depending on which snake you picked 

My personal choice, if I wasn't going for producing all white snakes in the first generation, would be something like a Normal Stripe het Snow or a Bloodred het Snow - which would give you SOME snows in the first generation who are carrying a pattern gene, and some other colours too (Anery and Amel, both carrying a pattern gene). But that's because I personally like the idea of a "rainbow clutch" where you don't know what colour nose will poke out of the next egg to hatch


----------



## chellenjon

But that's because I personally like the idea of a "rainbow clutch" where you don't know what colour nose will poke out of the next egg to hatch [/quote]


thats what my clutch will be like, i put a ribbon motley with a snow but we're not sure if the ribbon motley is hypo or not, we'll find out in 4 weeks, can't wait!!


----------



## jamie-c

i was thinking of putting my bloodred het pewter to my hypo female that has rat in her 

what would i expect please


----------



## eeji

chellenjon said:


> thats what my clutch will be like, i put a ribbon motley with a snow but we're not sure if the ribbon motley is hypo or not, we'll find out in 4 weeks, can't wait!!


You'll only find out if your snow is also carrying hypo


----------



## Ssthisto

jamie-c said:


> i was thinking of putting my bloodred het pewter to my hypo female that has rat in her
> 
> what would i expect please


You'd get North American Ratsnakes who are het for hypo and bloodred, possibly het for charcoal - probably best described as "rootbeers" if the ratsnake is an Emoryi.

Rootbeer Rats het for Hypo, Diffuse and possibly Charcoal sounds nice


----------



## jamie-c

oooooo sounds good but not sure if my male blood is big enough 

what weight would you say is best 

he is a good eater and healthy


----------



## chellenjon

eeji said:


> You'll only find out if your snow is also carrying hypo


 
there's always a chance lol, don't know any hets so it'll be a suprise whatever we get
: victory:


----------



## Ssthisto

jamie-c said:


> oooooo sounds good but not sure if my male blood is big enough
> 
> what weight would you say is best
> 
> he is a good eater and healthy


How old is he and what does he weigh? And how old/big is the female?

I've heard of males breeding successfully at 100 grams or so... even if I'd personally prefer to let them get to three feet and 250+ grams where possible.


----------



## jamie-c

the hypo is 4ft---410g
the blood is 3ft---141g

they are both healty


----------



## eeji

chellenjon said:


> there's always a chance lol, don't know any hets so it'll be a suprise whatever we get
> : victory:


good luck


----------



## chellenjon

eeji said:


> good luck


 
thank you, i love suprises! the eggs have had a rough start so they'll be special anyway!: victory:


----------



## eileensimpson

ok I have
female creamsicle
female hypo het amel
male normal het amel
male anery(type 1)

all other hets unknown.
what would be the best way to breed them?
are there any other morphs I could buy to get some nice desirable corns???


----------



## Ssthisto

Well, I'd personally put the normal het amel to the hypo het amel for 75% normal het hypo, possible het Amel and 25% amel het hypo. 

Creamsicle are genetically amelanistic; you'd get half creamsicle and half rootbeer if you crossed her to your het Amel male. You'd get all rootbeers het amel and anery if you crossed her to your Anery male.

As for "what you could buy" ... what do you want to make? Do you want rainbow clutches where you don't know what colour nose is going to come out of the next egg (even if you know a list of what POSSIBLE noses there could be), or do you want a predictable clutch where you know exactly what you're going to get because you picked two parents who can only produce one thing when they're bred together? Do you have an idea of "I want to have one of THESE that I bred myself" ?

In my case, I know what I want to MAKE (rainbow clutches, but with carefully chosen parents so I can predict what I might get - and with the idea that the pairings will hopefully produce the one or two snakes out of each clutch I want to keep) ... but what I want to make isn't necessarily what you like. It's no good me telling you "Go and get a nice Emoryi Ratsnake to breed to your Creamsicle to make Rootbeers that look more like 50/50 hybrids" if that's not what you want to produce


----------



## repkid

Just wondering what an opal female and black motley male would make. 

Thanks brad


----------



## eeji

Megabrad 666 said:


> Just wondering what an opal female and black motley male would make.
> 
> Thanks brad


by black motley, i'm guessing you mean anery motley.....

= 100% normals, het amel lavender anery and motley


----------



## repkid

eeji said:


> by black motley, i'm guessing you mean anery motley.....
> 
> = 100% normals, het amel lavender anery and motley


Didnt quite get that.
Opal and anery motley = normal??

What about and opal to a amelanistic or whatever theyre called.


----------



## eeji

Megabrad 666 said:


> Didnt quite get that.
> Opal and anery motley = normal??
> 
> What about and opal to a amelanistic or whatever theyre called.


yes, all hatchlings from opal x anery mot will be normals.

...opal x amel = 100% amel het lavender


----------



## repkid

Ok thanks very much
Just a few more requests.
opal x caramel
opal x snow
opal x okettee
opal x reverse okettee

Thanks very much


----------



## eeji

Megabrad 666 said:


> Ok thanks very much
> Just a few more requests.
> opal x caramel
> opal x snow
> opal x okettee
> opal x reverse okettee
> 
> Thanks very much


opal x caramel = normal het amel, lavender, caramel
opal x snow = amel het lavender, anery
opal x okettee = normal het amel, lavender
opal x reverse okettee = amel het lavender


----------



## repkid

thanks for the help! how the hell do you know all of this genetics stuff. i dont have a clue!


----------



## repkid

What would a snow and a butter make and what would a ghost and a butter make?


----------



## eeji

Megabrad 666 said:


> What would a snow and a butter make and what would a ghost and a butter make?


snow x butter = amel het anery, caramel
ghost x butter = normal het hypo, anery, amel, caramel


----------



## amyloveys

hi there,
what a brill thread! what would i get from the following?

normal
type a anery
amel motley
normal motley

thanks!


----------



## Ssthisto

Well, if you cross the normal motley to the amel motley, you'll get all motley het for amel.

If you cross the amel motley to the anery, you'd get all normals het for Amel, Anery and Motley (AKA "snow motley"). 

Anything else, you'd expect normals with a het or two depending on what you crossed. My choice there would probably be to make hets for Snow Motley but the only way to make visual morphs in the first generation is the Amel Motley X Normal Motley.


----------



## sweetvicky

Awsome : victory:

What would you get if you cross a:
Ghost Motley with an Amel
Ghost Motley with an Amel stripe

Cheers guys


----------



## Ssthisto

Ghost motley to amel = all normal het hypo, amel, anery and motley.

Ghost motley to amel stripe = All motley het stripe, hypo, amel, anery.


----------



## haydoms

what would be good with if anything (mrs was thinking of a lavender)
amel het butter stripe
not for a while but just thinking


----------



## intravenous

haydoms said:


> what would be good with if anything (mrs was thinking of a lavender)
> amel het butter stripe
> not for a while but just thinking


If you bred it to a butter stripe you'd get:

butter stripes
amel stripes
butters
amels

You could get the possibility of caramels and caramel stripes if you bred it to something that wasn't homozygous amel, for example:

a caramel het butter stripe or a caramel stripe het butter


----------



## kyledawelsh

what about if i bred thes 2 corns what would i get?


----------



## Ssthisto

Well, they both look like they might be Caramel-based, so I'd expect similar-looking offspring. They're either caramels or fairly recent Great Plains Rat heritage Rootbeers, anyway....


----------



## haydoms

intravenous said:


> If you bred it to a butter stripe you'd get:
> 
> butter stripes
> amel stripes
> butters
> amels
> 
> You could get the possibility of caramels and caramel stripes if you bred it to something that wasn't homozygous amel, for example:
> 
> a caramel het butter stripe or a caramel stripe het butter


ok trying to understand here would someone be able to post the punnet square for this please..:blush:


----------



## eeji

haydoms said:


> ok trying to understand here would someone be able to post the punnet square for this please..:blush:


onto it


----------



## eeji

here ya go....

a=amel c=caramel s=stripe +=normal - male female hatchlings



Code:


     | [COLOR=Blue]a++ [/COLOR]   | [COLOR=Blue]ac+ [/COLOR]   | [COLOR=Blue]a+s[/COLOR]    | [COLOR=Blue]acs[/COLOR]    |
------------------------------------------
[COLOR=Magenta] acs [/COLOR]| [COLOR=Orange]aac+s+[/COLOR] | [COLOR=Orange]aaccs+[/COLOR] | [COLOR=Orange]aac+ss[/COLOR] | [COLOR=Orange]aaccss[/COLOR] |

aac+s+ = amel
aaccs+ = butter
aac+ss = amel stripe
aaccss = butter stripe

t-bo, we need tables adding to the bb codes!


----------



## Serious D

*corn morphs*

i was wondering if any one could tell me whot corn snakes would i get if i breed a female normal corn with a male reverse albino okeekee


----------



## eeji

Serious D said:


> i was wondering if any one could tell me whot corn snakes would i get if i breed a female normal corn with a male reverse albino okeekee


all normal het amel


----------



## dalilloz

*babies*









what qould i get if i breed this corn with a lavender motly ??? have been told this is ghost corn but as it was a rescue only gusseing 











and what about these two the girl is the normal and the striped amel is the gent thanks


----------



## Ssthisto

In both cases you'll get visual normals.

The ghost cross lavender motley will make normals het anery, hypo, lavender and motley.

The normal cross amel stripe will make normals het amel, stripe.

If you DID cross the amel stripe to the lavender motley you'd get all motley het stripe, amel, lavender.


----------



## dalilloz

*so*

so they would all be normal corns ?? how do i get the differnt morphs??sorry am prob being stupid


----------



## Ssthisto

You need parents with matching mutations in order to produce morphs - a ghost carries Anery and Hypo, so it'll produce morphs with anything that carries one or both of those genes. Anything else, it'll make normals (or, if you get something else, you know your ghost is carrying other genes).


----------



## dalilloz

thanks


----------



## mask-of-sanity

what would i get from a ghost x hypo het lavender ghost


----------



## eeji

mask-of-sanity said:


> what would i get from a ghost x hypo het lavender ghost


50.00% Hypomelanistic (het. Anerythristic, 50% poss. het. Lavender) 
50.00% Ghost (50% poss. het. Lavender)


----------



## Kathryn666

Can anyone tell me what I would get from...

female RO
male Amel Motley het bloodred?

Thanks


----------



## toyah

faroopnorthsnakes said:


> Can anyone tell me what I would get from...
> 
> female RO
> male Amel Motley het bloodred?
> 
> Thanks



Amels het motley, 50%ph bloodred.


----------



## Kathryn666

toyah said:


> Amels het motley, 50%ph bloodred.


Thanks for that : victory:


----------



## bampoisongirl

*i have no clue..*

Hi there i have bred my male snow to my striped anerythristic. now could sum1 explain in very simple terms wat i will probably get? please bear in mind i have no clue wat it means wen people say 'snow het anery' or '1/4 normal het anery' or anything like that i need a crash course in genetics! Please help!


----------



## Ssthisto

You will get ALL anerythristics, and all of them will be het for Amel and Stripe.

This is because a snow is "amelanistic anerythristic" - it carries both genes and doesn't have a "not-anery" gene to give (or a "not-amel" gene). 

The anery female doesn't have a "not anery" gene to give either - and she doesn't have a "not-stripe" to give either.

So all the babies will look Anerythristic with a blotched pattern - but they have the possibility of creating snows and stripes in the second generation.


----------



## bampoisongirl

rite lol thanks i think i get that haha


----------



## Zodiac

ok, if someone can help me out here would appretiate it!
Opal motley - Ghost 
(correct me if i'm wrong) that would give:
100% het snow, het lavender, het hypomel, het motley
breeding 2 of those would give what?


----------



## Ssthisto

100% het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Lavender and Motley actually - it's a good thing to remember that "snow" is not just one gene.

So you could get Amels, Anery, Hypos, Lavenders, Motleys, Amel Motleys, Anery Motleys, Hypo Motleys, Lavender Motleys, Snows, Hypo Amels, Opals, Ghosts, Anery/Lavenders, Hypo Lavenders, Coral Snows, Hypo Opals, Hypo Lavender Motleys, Hypo Anery/Lavenders, Anery/Lavender Motleys, Opal Motleys, Glaciers (AKA "snopal"), Ghost Motleys, Snow Motleys, Hypo glaciers, Glacier motleys, Hypo opal motleys, Hypo Anery/Lavender Motleys.... and so on. But you'll also get a fair number of normals who are possible hets for allsorts... and some of those "white snakes" might be pretty difficult to tell apart.


----------



## Zodiac

Ssthisto said:


> 100% het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Lavender and Motley actually - it's a good thing to remember that "snow" is not just one gene.
> 
> So you could get Amels, Anery, Hypos, Lavenders, Motleys, Amel Motleys, Anery Motleys, Hypo Motleys, Lavender Motleys, Snows, Hypo Amels, Opals, Ghosts, Anery/Lavenders, Hypo Lavenders, Coral Snows, Hypo Opals, Hypo Lavender Motleys, Hypo Anery/Lavenders, Anery/Lavender Motleys, Opal Motleys, Glaciers (AKA "snopal"), Ghost Motleys, Snow Motleys, Hypo glaciers, Glacier motleys, Hypo opal motleys, Hypo Anery/Lavender Motleys.... and so on. But you'll also get a fair number of normals who are possible hets for allsorts... and some of those "white snakes" might be pretty difficult to tell apart.



OMG!!!!

so these two snakes would be pretty legend to start up a breeding project? with possibility of projecting half the morph list on my hands lol.

I can't wait...literally lol. get busy li'l snakes 

(thanks for your answer mate!)


----------



## eeji

Ssthisto said:


> 100% het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Lavender and Motley actually - it's a good thing to remember that "snow" is not just one gene.
> 
> So you could get Amels, Anery, Hypos, Lavenders, Motleys, Amel Motleys, Anery Motleys, Hypo Motleys, Lavender Motleys, Snows, Hypo Amels, Opals, Ghosts, Anery/Lavenders, Hypo Lavenders, Coral Snows, Hypo Opals, Hypo Lavender Motleys, Hypo Anery/Lavenders, Anery/Lavender Motleys, Opal Motleys, Glaciers (AKA "snopal"), Ghost Motleys, Snow Motleys, Hypo glaciers, Glacier motleys, Hypo opal motleys, Hypo Anery/Lavender Motleys.... and so on. But you'll also get a fair number of normals who are possible hets for allsorts... and some of those "white snakes" might be pretty difficult to tell apart.


that sounds a fun possible clutch! you could run a book on each egg and take bets on what its going to hatch as!


----------



## Lostcorn

Ssthisto said:


> 100% het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Lavender and Motley actually - it's a good thing to remember that "snow" is not just one gene.
> 
> So you could get Amels, Anery, Hypos, Lavenders, Motleys, Amel Motleys, Anery Motleys, Hypo Motleys, Lavender Motleys, Snows, Hypo Amels, Opals, Ghosts, Anery/Lavenders, Hypo Lavenders, Coral Snows, Hypo Opals, Hypo Lavender Motleys, Hypo Anery/Lavenders, Anery/Lavender Motleys, Opal Motleys, Glaciers (AKA "snopal"), Ghost Motleys, Snow Motleys, Hypo glaciers, Glacier motleys, Hypo opal motleys, Hypo Anery/Lavender Motleys.... and so on. But you'll also get a fair number of normals who are possible hets for allsorts... and some of those "white snakes" might be pretty difficult to tell apart.


WOW!!!



Thats quite a mix :lol2:


----------



## nattat

hi, if i have a red rat corn and a mal what will i get.


----------



## Ssthisto

I assume you mean an "amel" - aka Amelanistic - in which case you'd get all normals carrying the Amel gene.

A "Red Rat" is just another name for a normal cornsnake


----------



## nattat

its not a normal corn . the women said thats what it is and i have a normal but they do not look a like as this one has grey on it.


----------



## Athravan

nattat said:


> its not a normal corn . the women said thats what it is and i have a normal but they do not look a like as this one has grey on it.


Post a picture for people to ID... a miami has a grey background, so normals can have grey. Unless it's grey/black, in which case it's likely to be some sort of anery base, or grey rat snake... or it could be a hybrid, someome will tell you with a pic


----------



## Velosus

hey could someone help me out, getting confused with genetics lol...
if i breed ....

Normal X Ghost - will i get anerys/normal/ghost?
Caramel X CreamCandy - dunno at all
Snow X Ghost - ghost/snow/anery?
CreamCandy X Snow - no idea lol

...what will these produce?
thats if anyone knows lol
Thansk if you can help

Ian


----------



## Ssthisto

Velosus said:


> hey could someone help me out, getting confused with genetics lol...
> if i breed ....
> 
> Normal X Ghost - will i get anerys/normal/ghost?
> Caramel X CreamCandy - dunno at all
> Snow X Ghost - ghost/snow/anery?
> CreamCandy X Snow - no idea lol
> 
> ...what will these produce?
> thats if anyone knows lol
> Thansk if you can help
> 
> Ian


Normal X Ghost = All normals het for anery and hypo.
Snow X Ghost = All anery het for Amel and Hypo.

Is the "creamcandy" a Creamsicle? 
If so:
Caramel X Creamsicle = 100% Rootbeer/Copper het for Caramel, Amel
Snow X Creamsicle = 100% Creamsicle het Anery

One thing to remember is that Creamsicles (and Rootbeer/Coppers) are hybrids - they have known Great Plains Ratsnake heritage, no matter how distant.


----------



## Velosus

ah nice one, thanks for that. and ye the creamcandy is a creamsicleXcandycane i think lol. 
so do you mean this would affect their behaviour? as i have seen the creamcandy rattle a few times when feeding... anything to do with this? 

Thanks Again

Ian


----------



## Ssthisto

Velosus said:


> ah nice one, thanks for that. and ye the creamcandy is a creamsicleXcandycane i think lol.
> so do you mean this would affect their behaviour? as i have seen the creamcandy rattle a few times when feeding... anything to do with this?
> 
> Thanks Again
> 
> Ian


Creamsicle X Candycane is still just plain Creamsicle 

Nope, it doesn't have anything to do with the rattling - pure corns rattle too


----------



## nattat

sorry the pic is not that good. she had just had 33 eggs when i took it.

IMG]http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm154/nat-tat/breedingcorn001.jpg[/IMG]



nattat said:


> its not a normal corn . the women said thats what it is and i have a normal but they do not look a like as this one has grey on it.


----------



## nattat




----------



## nattat




----------



## kelly

is that sand that she is on? congrats on the eggs.


----------



## quizicalkat

ok genetic gods:lol2:

crimson x hypo = hypo het miami?


----------



## eeji

quizicalkat said:


> ok genetic gods:lol2:
> 
> crimson x hypo = hypo het miami?


just hypo, you can't get het miami cos its a wild type locality


----------



## quizicalkat

eeji said:


> just hypo, you can't get het miami cos its a wild type locality


ty :lol2:


----------



## Corn24_7

I've got one for ye's

Got a female snow(green blotched)unknown hets who was mated with a lavender. Any idea's on the outcome?


----------



## eeji

Corn24_7 said:


> I've got one for ye's
> 
> Got a female snow(green blotched)unknown hets who was mated with a lavender. Any idea's on the outcome?


all normals het amel, anery and lavender


----------



## Corn24_7

eeji said:


> all normals het amel, anery and lavender


Cheers 

Just waiting on her laying now Yay!


----------



## cornmorphs

normals het snopal then.. cool


----------



## eeji

cornmorphs said:


> normals het snopal then.. cool


....and opal, and snow, and anery lav   : victory:


----------



## Corn24_7

Yikes, wasn't expecting so many hets to pe produced lol


----------



## Kathryn666

Ok clever peeps (I am hopleess at this!!) I am expecting two lots of eggs any day now.

My snow girl x anery male = ? Anery het for snow??
My bloodred x amel mot (het blood) = ??

Thanks guys (wish the progeny predictors worked on vista :bash


----------



## kelly

anery x snow = anerys het amel

bloodred x amel mot het blood = 50% bloodred het amel het motley and 50% normal het amel het motley het blodred. i think :lol2: . if wrong someone will say


----------



## Hardwicki

Hi guys

I have a female lavander het motley i can hopefully breed next year providing she is big enuff.
Now i have males one is a snow and the other a normal (no known hets)
Could you please let me know what i'll end up with if i bred with each.

Thanks
Vik: victory:


----------



## Athravan

Hardwicki said:


> Hi guys
> 
> I have a female lavander het motley i can hopefully breed next year providing she is big enuff.
> Now i have males one is a snow and the other a normal (no known hets)
> Could you please let me know what i'll end up with if i bred with each.
> 
> Thanks
> Vik: victory:


Lavender het Motley x Snow = Normal het Amel, Anery, Lavender poss het motley. Amel Anery and Lavender make Snopal, so they will be normals het Snopal (poss het motley)

Lavender het Motley x Normal = Normal het Lavender, poss het motley.


----------



## Hardwicki

Athravan said:


> Lavender het Motley x Snow = Normal het Amel, Anery, Lavender poss het motley. Amel Anery and Lavender make Snopal, so they will be normals het Snopal (poss het motley)
> 
> Lavender het Motley x Normal = Normal het Lavender, poss het motley.


Sorry i'm being dim i dont get this bit in red.

So if i breed snow and lav i will get Normal het Amel, Anery, Lavender poss het motley?

Where does the Amel Anery and Lavender make Snopal, so they will be normals het Snopal (poss het motley) come in is this if they are bred back or something?

Sorry i'm only just beginning to get my head around this stuff.
:blush:


----------



## Athravan

If you breed 2 of those babies back you'll get a mixture. The odds of actually get a snopal from 2 triple hets is pretty low, around 1.5% I think of getting a snopal. You'll get normals, amels, anerys, snows, lavenders, opals (amel lavender), anery lavender, and the elusive extremely small chance of getting a snopal.

The odds are so low though, you could go 5 years or more without hitting a snopal.

If they both turned out to be carrying the het motley (pretty low odds there), all the above morphs could also show visual motley and some would be carrying the het. If only one of them was het motley, all could be poss. het motley.

The prices visual opals are though probably make it not worth most peoples while to start a project on this, you could pick up a hatchling opal for £80-100 and bring him up to breed with your lavender  Snopals are coming down in price too.


----------



## Hardwicki

Ok guys next question sorry...
How can i produce Pewters, Blood reds, Fires and Ices?
I'm really interested in breeding as a permanent future thing and if i need to invest i will.

Thanks: victory:


----------



## Ssthisto

Bloodred (AKA Diffuse) is a base mutation - in order to get them you need two animals who carry the gene.

Pewter is a Charcoal Bloodred - so you'll need parents who carry both Charcoal AND Bloodred to get them.

Fire is an Amelanistic Bloodred. Again, parents who carry both traits are required.

Much easier to produce any of these if you pick up one animal who's visual for what you want and one who's got the matching het - so, for example, maybe a Pewter male and a Normal het Charcoal Bloodred female (to get normals het charcoal bloodred, charcoals het bloodred, bloodred het charcoal and more pewters); for the Fire I'd suggest one Fire and an opposite sex BEST sunglow (no-dorsal-white Amel) you can get hold of and work on making hets the first go-round - many Amel-based Bloodreds just don't show the diffusion that Bloodred should be producing.

Ice is Lava Anerythristic; you'll need carriers of both these genes.


----------



## Hardwicki

Ssthisto said:


> Bloodred (AKA Diffuse) is a base mutation - in order to get them you need two animals who carry the gene.
> 
> Pewter is a Charcoal Bloodred - so you'll need parents who carry both Charcoal AND Bloodred to get them.
> 
> Fire is an Amelanistic Bloodred. Again, parents who carry both traits are required.
> 
> Much easier to produce any of these if you pick up one animal who's visual for what you want and one who's got the matching het - so, for example, maybe a Pewter male and a Normal het Charcoal Bloodred female (to get normals het charcoal bloodred, charcoals het bloodred, bloodred het charcoal and more pewters); for the Fire I'd suggest one Fire and an opposite sex BEST sunglow (no-dorsal-white Amel) you can get hold of and work on making hets the first go-round - many Amel-based Bloodreds just don't show the diffusion that Bloodred should be producing.
> 
> Ice is Lava Anerythristic; you'll need carriers of both these genes.


RIGHT I'M JUST CURIOUS, I THINK IM BEGINNING TO GET THIS.:blush:


----------



## Pauline

Please, what would I get from a creamsicle x rootbeer?

Apologies if it's already been answered but there is rather a lot of pages now and I keep getting sidetracked.


----------



## Ssthisto

Pauline said:


> Please, what would I get from a creamsicle x rootbeer?
> 
> Apologies if it's already been answered but there is rather a lot of pages now and I keep getting sidetracked.


Rootbeers who are guaranteed het amelanistic (aka "het Creamsicle").


----------



## Sziren

*Possible Offspring*

One day I will read all the pages, as it is all very interesting but for now I would like to ask 2 questions;

1- This is Floyd, male-07 I have just purchased from ScotlandUkBoa and in my excitement, I cannot recall what colour/morph he is?
He is an amazing orange with red markings, and a pure white underside (not a single bit of colour, or anything) Also believe Linda said she got him from someone on this forum?




























2 - I am putting him to my friends Amel and Reverse Okatee females (when he's big enough) and wondered what we would get?
The females are 'pet shop bought', so don't have any history of their breeding unfortunately.

Thank you for your help and comments :0)


----------



## eeji

he's an Amel Motley (and very nice he is too!!) 

bred with an amel or an RO you will get all amels het motley


----------



## bampoisongirl

Hi, i have bred my male snow to female striped anerythristic...waiting on eggs to hatch...predicted outcomes?

Also, just about to breed snow male to female sunglow...predicted out comes?

Thanks:mf_dribble:


----------



## Ssthisto

Snow to striped anery, barring hidden hets = 100% Anery het Amel and Stripe.

Snow to Sunglow, barring hidden hets = 100% Amel het Anery.

Does the Sunglow have a white belly, or does it show any signs of belly checkers?


----------



## ccb_kid

*morph of my corn?*

hey could any 1 tell me the morph of my corn snake plzz


----------



## bampoisongirl

not sure havn't picked hr up yet lol will lt u no tomorrow thanks very much


----------



## Athravan

Corn snake kid, your corn is a normal.


----------



## CornSnakeLover

i bread a anary to a hypo what will the little snakes turn out to be ?


----------



## Ssthisto

You'll get all normals het Anery and Hypo.


----------



## sweetvicky

If I breed a Ghost Motley with a normal, will all babies be normal het ghost and motley?

The normal she bred with has very reduced black, so much so that the are only brown patches on her belly, no black, and he is a very reddish brown. Could he possibly be hypo (is it easy to tell if a corn is hypo or is it something you would have to know more about parents to decide)?
Would his being hypo make a difference to any babies produced?


----------



## eeji

sometimes it can be quite hard to tell clean normals and mucky hypos apart 

if you bred a ghost motley to a hypo you'd get all hypos het anery and motley


----------



## Hardwicki

Hi guys

What would a Amel x Snow have if i were to put them together?

Cheers
Vicky


----------



## Ssthisto

You're guaranteed Amels het Anery.

I would not be wholly surprised if you also got snows, because many corns carry hidden hets - it's possible your Amel is het for Anery.


----------



## Kathryn666

OOops I just put this in genetics instead of here!!!

Please can someone tell me what I should get from my female snow, Anery male pairing, hets unknown? I assume Anery but am not sure. Thanks


----------



## Young_Gun

faroopnorthsnakes said:


> OOops I just put this in genetics instead of here!!!
> 
> Please can someone tell me what I should get from my female snow, Anery male pairing, hets unknown? I assume Anery but am not sure. Thanks


Anerys het Amel not accounting for any hets that you don't know about


----------



## Hardwicki

Ssthisto said:


> You're guaranteed Amels het Anery.
> 
> I would not be wholly surprised if you also got snows, because many corns carry hidden hets - it's possible your Amel is het for Anery.


Its my friends Amel, the snow is mine. Possibly breeding them next year shes dropped a clutch recently and we'll see what we get.


----------



## Hardwicki

Hey guys

What would you suggest to breed with my Lavender het motley. 
Just interested in what i could produce.

Thanks
Vicky


----------



## Ssthisto

Hardwicki said:


> Hey guys
> 
> What would you suggest to breed with my Lavender het motley.
> Just interested in what i could produce.
> 
> Thanks
> Vicky


Anything that is at LEAST het lavender AND het motley OR stripe.

That could be "normal het lavender and motley" or "Anery het stripe and lavender" or "opal het motley".

That way, you can at least have a chance at lavenders, motleys and maybe lavender motleys (the only morphs you are guaranteed to be able to get). 

My personal choice would depend on whether I wanted to produce more morphs, or if I wanted more normals that were guaranteed hets for other things. 

For example, I'd be tempted to put her to, say, a Snow Stripe - which would produce normals het for lavender, amel, anery and stripe, plus motley het stripe het for amel, lavender and anery


----------



## Hardwicki

Ssthisto said:


> Anything that is at LEAST het lavender AND het motley OR stripe.
> 
> That could be "normal het lavender and motley" or "Anery het stripe and lavender" or "opal het motley".
> 
> That way, you can at least have a chance at lavenders, motleys and maybe lavender motleys (the only morphs you are guaranteed to be able to get).
> 
> My personal choice would depend on whether I wanted to produce more morphs, or if I wanted more normals that were guaranteed hets for other things.
> 
> For example, I'd be tempted to put her to, say, a Snow Stripe - which would produce normals het for lavender, amel, anery and stripe, plus motley het stripe het for amel, lavender and anery


I was going to pair with my snow. Hes not a stripe but he is a pretty boy. So far i think the snow option seems to be one of the best, for variation at least. I think i'll stick to mating her with my snow and get all hets!

Thanks : victory:


----------



## ReptileCrazy

What is the most popular corn morph also which corns would be good to breed to get good morphs


----------



## Ssthisto

Most popular depends on who you ask.

And if you want "good" morphs (and don't want to pay a large amount of money) then you're best off picking a pair of normals who are het for lots of traits. That way you have a (small) chance of hitting a triple or quadruple or quintuple homozygous morph.


----------



## eeji

the most popular as in the most amount, i'd say would be amel.

beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so 'nice' or 'good' morphs could be anything


----------



## kissssolo

Hi,

I have a question. I have resently seen Ghost Hypo corns for sale. Using the cornsnake progeny pridictor I see Ghost corns are produced from Hypomelanstic and Anerythristic, so how do you then get a Ghost Hypo?

I would like to start a breeding program for Ghost Stripe and Ghost Motley if you can get Ghost Hypo dose the same apply to the Striped and Motely varity.

Any advise on the above project would be gratefully received.


----------



## eeji

ghost hypo is one of those stupid names that means absolutely nothing. some people use it to describe a paler than usual ghost, a lot of the time its people who don't know what they are talking about: 'its lighter than a ghost, so must be a hypo ghost'

:bash:


----------



## Ssthisto

Most of the "hypo ghosts" (and I've seen "Superhypo Ghosts" too) I've seen are motley - and Motley has a hypomelanistic effect as well.

Consider "hypo" or "super hypo" ghost as being equivalent to "pastel ghost" and you're probably close.

Granted, you could get something like a Sunkissed Ghost or an Ultra Ghost or a Lava Ghost which would have another hypo-type gene applied to it... but you'd see 'em with the extra price tag too!


----------



## kissssolo

Thanks for those replies, still not sure what i need to look for in the reasonable price range to start a breeding project for hypo or pastel ghosts, or do i just need to selectivly buy what looks like a hypo or pastel ghost.

I like the idea of breeding ghost motley and ghost strip and then selectivly breeding for strong patterns and stripes. Am i right in believing that it is something that is develpoded by selectivly breeding the strong patterns you desire together in an atempt to improve what you are looking for.


----------



## emma18x

If i put a ghost stripe with a blizzard what should i get?
I've got an idea but i'm probably wrong so thought i'd ask the pro's :2thumb:


----------



## Athravan

emma18x said:


> If i put a ghost stripe with a blizzard what should i get?
> I've got an idea but i'm probably wrong so thought i'd ask the pro's :2thumb:


Normals het for anery, hypo, amel, charcoal and stripe! It's usually best to avoid mixing anery a and anery b (charcoal) where possible though due to the difficulties in telling them apart and they don't really mix that well. Breeding 2 of the offspring together would get complicated!


----------



## Ssthisto

emma18x said:


> If i put a ghost stripe with a blizzard what should i get?
> I've got an idea but i'm probably wrong so thought i'd ask the pro's :2thumb:


Ghost Stripe to Blizzard SHOULD get you all normals - because they do not share any genes in common.

The normals would be het for Amel, Anery, Charcoal, Hypo and Stripe.

That said I would not be surprised if you got anery, amel or snow - which would mean that your blizzard is het (or homozygous) anery and/or that your Ghost Stripe is het for Amel.


----------



## emma18x

Yep... i was wrong:lol2: Thanks : victory:


----------



## Young_Gun

Ultramel h Hypo h Bloodred x Golddust h Hypo h Bloodred?


----------



## Anthony

Young_Gun said:


> Ultramel h Hypo h Bloodred x Golddust h Hypo h Bloodred?


Male = Ultramel het Bloodred, het. Hypo 
Female = Golddust, het Bloodred, het. Hypo 
Offspring predicted as: 
---------------------------------------------------
9/64 Amelanistic (het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic) 
18/64 Ultramel (het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic) 
9/64 Ultra (het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic) 
3/64 Amelanistic, Bloodred (het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic) 
6/64 Ultramel, Bloodred (het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic) 
3/64 Ultra, Bloodred (het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic) 
3/64 Amelanistic, Hypomelanistic (het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Bloodred) 
6/64 Ultramel, Hypomelanistic (het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Bloodred) 
3/64 Ultra, Hypomelanistic (het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Bloodred) 
1/64 Amelanistic, Bloodred, Hypomelanistic (het. Caramel) 
2/64 Ultramel, Bloodred, Hypomelanistic (het. Caramel) 
1/64 Ultra, Bloodred, Hypomelanistic (het. Caramel)


----------



## dalilloz

*Amel Stripe/Cube Corn Het Snow x ghost* what would i get ???


----------



## eeji

dalilloz said:


> *Amel Stripe/Cube Corn Het Snow x ghost* what would i get ???


you can expect a chance of: 50% normal het amel anery hypo & stripe and 50% anery het amel hypo & stripe


----------



## Hardwicki

What do i need to pair to create blizzards?
I asked the bloke in the pet shop, he shrugged and said well these babies came from 2 normals so who knows...useful huh:bash:


----------



## Athravan

Hardwicki said:


> What do i need to pair to create blizzards?
> I asked the bloke in the pet shop, he shrugged and said well these babies came from 2 normals so who knows...useful huh:bash:


Blizzard is Amel and Charcoal (Anery B)


----------



## Ssthisto

Hardwicki said:


> What do i need to pair to create blizzards?
> I asked the bloke in the pet shop, he shrugged and said well these babies came from 2 normals so who knows...useful huh:bash:


Then those two normals were obviously het for Amel and Charcoal 

To create blizzards, both parents need to carry Amel AND Charcoal. If one is visually amel and the other is visually charcoal, you will get normals who are carriers of both traits.


----------



## Young_Gun

Plasma h Bloodred x Plasma h Hypo h Bloodred.


----------



## Ssthisto

A Lavender Bloodred ("Plasma") is already homozygous bloodred, so you'd get:

50% Lavender Bloodred
50% Lavender Bloodred het Hypo

i.e. 100% Lavender Bloodred AKA "Plasma" (I hate that name) possible het Hypo.


----------



## Hardwicki

Ah thanks guys, i can go back in and tell them now. lol.
x: victory:


----------



## milii

Hi Guys, 

Sorry if this has been asked already but what if I put a snow to pewter?

Many Thanks


----------



## Ssthisto

Well, a Snow is Amelanistic Anerythristic. A Pewter is Charcoal Diffuse/Bloodred.

You'll get all normals who carry all four traits; I would not be surprised if the Pewter turned out to be het for Anerythristic (which would explain any anery offspring you might get).


----------



## milii

Thats great, Thank you


----------



## boabloketony

Hey folks, 

I could do with a hand,

What would an amel stripe x amel stripe (het anery) produce together?

Thanks


----------



## toyah

All amel stripes, 50% ph anery


----------



## boabloketony

toyah said:


> All amel stripes, 50% ph anery


Thanks Toyah, was a nice easy one for ya :blush:


----------



## dixon_97

What if I breed a snow to a creamsicle?


----------



## Ssthisto

dixon_97 said:


> What if I breed a snow to a creamsicle?


All creamsicles (Amel hybrid Corn X Great Plains Ratsnake) het for Anery.


----------



## mask-of-sanity

what will i get if i put a caramel to an amel


----------



## eeji

mask-of-sanity said:


> what will i get if i put a caramel to an amel


you'll get 100% normals het amel and caramel (Butter)


----------



## martynandkirsty

Ssthisto said:


> Well, a Snow is Amelanistic Anerythristic. A Pewter is Charcoal Diffuse/Bloodred.
> 
> You'll get all normals who carry all four traits; I would not be surprised if the Pewter turned out to be het for Anerythristic (which would explain any anery offspring you might get).


what if you where to breed the hets back to each other what would be the % outcome


----------



## Ssthisto

You have a 25% chance of producing any single trait (Amelanistic, Charcoal, Bloodred or Anerythristic).

You have a 12.5% chance of producing any two-trait combination (Blizzard, Fire, Snow, Pewter, Charcoal/Anery, Granite).

You have a 6.25% chance of producing any three-trait combination (Whiteout, Avalanche, Charcoal Granite, Charcoal Snow).

And you have a 3.125% chance of producing the four-trait combination of a Charcoal Avalanche.


----------



## Moosey

amel x snow = ?

anery x snow = ?


----------



## Ssthisto

Amel X Snow = All Amel het Anery
Anery X Snow = All Anery het Amel

If you get any snows, you've proven that your non-Snow animal is heterozygous for the component of Snow that it isn't (i.e. your Amel is het Anery, your Anery is het Amel).


----------



## Moosey

cheers dude : victory:


----------



## haydoms

Probably been asked before but if two animals that are het for the same thing are bred would it result in any offsping that are that type...

ok makes no sense i'll try it this way

Amel het butter stripe x Amel het butter stripe

possible outcomes please, i know its an easy one but not for thicko's :bash:like me

Just a thought how would a Butter work also with the above


----------



## Ssthisto

Amel het Caramel Stripe X Amel het Caramel Stripe

Well, you're GUARANTEED Amels.
You have a 25% chance per egg of getting Caramel Amels - I.E. Butters.
You have a 25% chance per egg of getting Striped Amels.
And you have a 6.25% chance per egg of getting all three genes and producing a Butter Stripe.

If you did it with an Amel het Butter Stripe X Butter het Stripe you increase the chances of getting visual Butter offspring to 50% per egg - which gives you a much better chance of producing Butter Stripes.


----------



## Serious D

hi every one im new, i was just wondering if you could tell me whot i would get if i breed my 
male amel 2 my female anery
male amel 2 my female classic het snow
thanx


----------



## eeji

Serious D said:


> hi every one im new, i was just wondering if you could tell me whot i would get if i breed my
> male amel 2 my female anery
> male amel 2 my female classic het snow
> thanx


amel x anery
100% normals het amel & anery

amel x normal het snow

25% normal het amel
25% normal het amel & anery
25% amel
25% amel het anery

:2thumb:


----------



## Lostcorn

*Blizzards*

Hi

do I have this right?

I have a female blizzard corn.

Tried to do a bit of research regarding suitable partners for her , came to the following conclusions .

First choice , blizzard male.

Or , amel het charcoal , or charcoal het amel.

Anything interesting that I have missed?

regards

John


----------



## arwen

hi can anyone help i've just had my first clutch hatch it was from a oketee x oketee pairing and it looks like out of 13 eggs most are anery with some really bright normals in there aswell a few of the anery look a bit lighter than the others would this sound right breeding these two together i wasn't expecting anery's 

also got another clutch due to hatch next week they are from the same oketee dad but with a carolina any guess to this clutch


have some pics, will put up later to confirm that they are anery's and bright normals


----------



## Ssthisto

Lostcorn said:


> I have a female blizzard corn.
> 
> First choice , blizzard male.
> Or , amel het charcoal , or charcoal het amel.
> 
> Anything interesting that I have missed?


Depends on what you want to produce and how patient you are.

If you want to produce Blizzards, a blizzard male is your top choice.
If you want a "rainbow" clutch a normal het amel and charcoal is a good choice.
And if you want a multi-generation project, you could cross anything into the line - my choice would be something like Hypo Bloodred 



arwen said:


> hi can anyone help i've just had my first clutch hatch it was from a oketee x oketee pairing and it looks like out of 13 eggs most are anery with some really bright normals in there aswell a few of the anery look a bit lighter than the others would this sound right breeding these two together i wasn't expecting anery's
> 
> also got another clutch due to hatch next week they are from the same oketee dad but with a carolina any guess to this clutch
> 
> have some pics, will put up later to confirm that they are anery's and bright normals


Hatchling Anery are BLACK and silver... but hatchling normals CAN look very anery-like if they don't have background colouration showing through right away. 

It's entirely possible your two Okeetees are heterozygous for Anery, and it's even possible that you could get an Anery-heavy clutch from a pair of hets, since it's a 25% chance per egg that they'll be Anerythristic.

Both Okeetees and Carolinas are essentially "normals" - so you wouldn't expect anything other than "normal" until and unless you prove your animal is carrying other genes via breeding trials.


----------



## rugbystar55

normal to butterscotch


----------



## Ssthisto

No such thing as a "butterscotch".

If it's a Butter (Amel Caramel) you'll expect normals het Amel and Caramel.


----------



## dalilloz

hey what would i get with a snow and a ghost bouth no none hets ?


----------



## Ssthisto

Anerythristic het Hypo and Amel.


----------



## cornmorphs

not sure where i have heard butterscotch?, must be those yanks lol.., but i have heard it used somewhere.


----------



## Sziren

Need your help again guys as just been on a 'shopping' trip and got myself some very nice new girls and a baby boy.

Looking to see what pairing will be the 'best' 

Males;

Green Spotted Snow Corn (no known het's)
Hypo Amelanistic Stripe/Motley (no known het's)
Ghost het Motley/Stripe

Females;

Anerythristic (no known het's)
Candycane (no known het's)
Crimson (no known het's)
Creamsicle (no known het's)
Hypo Ghost Motley/Stripe (no known het's)

Thanks again :notworthy:


----------



## Ssthisto

First and foremost, your Ghost male is het EITHER stripe OR motley, but cannot be het for both.

The "hypo ghost" is a redundant phrase - Ghosts are hypo by default.

I'd put the ghost male with the Crimson and the Ghost. You'll get hypo (possibly Crimson) from the first pairing and ghost / ghost motley from the second.
The hypo amel (how do they know it's a hypo amel - did it have two hypo-based parents?) might go well with the candycane; maybe with the Creamsicle.

The snow would go nicely with the Anery.


----------



## Sziren

Thanks again : victory:


----------



## emma18x

Caramel x Blizzard?


----------



## Ssthisto

Normal het caramel, amelanistic and charcoal.


----------



## Heavenlyhogs

amel x candy cane
Lavender motley x snow
Lavender motley x blizzard
Blizzard x snow


----------



## Ssthisto

A candy cane is a selectively bred amel, so you'd expect all amel. Some might be candy-cane-like but you probably won't get any real candy canes.

Lavender motley X Snow = Normal het lavender, amel, anery, motley.
Lavender motley X Blizzard = Normal het lavender, amel, charcoal, motley

Blizzard X Snow = Amels het Anery and Charcoal (have fun distinguishing blizzards from snows from Charcoal Snows in the second generation...)


----------



## rugbystar55

normal x amel


----------



## PRS

Im new with corns and I have a butter corn and a snow corn, the butters a male and the snows unsexed, if these were compatible in the future what would you get from them?


----------



## eeji

rugbystar55 said:


> normal x amel


all normals het amel - if you get any amels, then your normal will be het amel which is possible because its a very common het to be carried.



The Gecko King :) said:


> Im new with corns and I have a butter corn and a snow corn, the butters a male and the snows unsexed, if these were compatible in the future what would you get from them?


all amels het anery and caramel


----------



## PRS

all amels het anery and caramel

[/quote]

Cheers what would happen if you put a male butter or snow with a creamsicle or an amel?


----------



## eeji

The Gecko King :) said:


> Cheers what would happen if you put a male butter or snow with a creamsicle or an amel?


butter x creamsicle = 100% creamsicle het caramel
butter x amel = 100% amel het caramel
snow x creamsicle = 100% creamsicle het anery
snow x amel = 100% amel het anery

...and don't forget that creamsicles are not pure corn snakes, so any hatchlings from a corn x creamsicle cannot be sold as pure corn either


----------



## PRS

Ok thanks mate xD helped alot


----------



## amyloveys

just found out the types and sexes of my corns and have been told i need to buy another snake to get any visual moprhs to mate with them. i knowi need a female but what do i need and what will my snakes make :blush:

i have a male carolina
female charcoal
male sunglow
male snow


----------



## Ssthisto

I would get a female snow or a female Sunglow (AKA "no-white-on-back bright orange Amel"). You'd get snows crossing a snow to a snow; you'd get amels crossing a snow to a sunglow.

You need a male that carries Charcoal to get anything from your charcoal female - but are you SURE she's charcoal and not Anery? Anery is far more common... and if you didn't buy her from a shop or a breeder specifically as a Charcoal, I wouldn't be sure she is one.


----------



## amyloveys

she has to be there is no yellow on her at all and shes getting more and pale by the day!


----------



## Ssthisto

I have an adult anery female with absolutely no yellow.

What colour are her eyes, and how much contrast is there between her saddle colour and her background colour?


----------



## amyloveys

her eyes are black and shes getting paler by the day. she started off silver and black and now she almost diluted looking! probably a anery, i dont mind either way shes gorgeous!


----------



## Ssthisto

If she started off really clean silver and black, she's probably an anery indeed; are the irises around the pupils also black?

If she's Anery that means you've got another pairing without having to get another male - your snow will produce anery het amel with her.


----------



## PRS

I have an adult pair of amels and a adult lavender female, the female amel is het for snow, and the male amel isnt het for anything that i know off prob is tho lol, If I put the male amel with the female amel and lavander what would I get ?

I heard if you put a amel to a lavender you get opals, but if i got a male lavender and put it to the amel thats het for snow I would get snopals and opals yes?


----------



## 10371

The Gecko King :) said:


> I have an adult pair of amels and a adult lavender female, the female amel is het for snow, and the male amel isnt het for anything that i know off prob is tho lol, If I put the male amel with the female amel and lavander what would I get ?
> 
> I heard if you put a amel to a lavender you get opals, but if i got a male lavender and put it to the amel thats het for snow I would get snopals and opals yes?


Amel het snow X Amel=
100% Amels 50% poss het snow.

Amel X Lavender=
100% Normals Het Opal


----------



## kelly41

ok nige heres one for you

**** anery A **** anery B hypo het amel het bloodred x pewter het anery A het amel


----------



## 10371

kelly41 said:


> ok nige heres one for you
> 
> **** anery A **** anery B hypo het amel het bloodred x pewter het anery A het amel


**** anery A **** anery B hypo het amel het bloodred x pewter het anery A het amel=

18.75% Charcoal het anery, bloodred, hypo, 66% poss.het amel
18.75% Anery Charcoal het bloodred, hypo, 66% poss.het amel
6.25% Blizzard het anery, bloodred, hypo
6.25% Snow charcoal het bloodred, hypo
18.75% Pewter het anery, hypo, 66%poss.het amel
18.75% Granite charcoal het hypo, 66% poss.het amel
6.25% Fire charcoal het anery, hypo, 
6.25% Avalanche Charcoal het hypo


----------



## kelly41

thanks for that

looks like im in for some fun identifying hatchlings lol

any one got pics of fire charcoals avalanch charcoals or snow charcoals?


----------



## PRS

How high chance would you get, of getting butters from a amel x caramel?


----------



## 10371

The Gecko King :) said:


> How high chance would you get, of getting butters from a amel x caramel?


Amel X Caramel=

100% Normals het Butter.


----------



## PRS

Ok thanks.


----------



## amyloveys

hi there again!

what about 

anery
carolina
sunglow
ghost stripe
butter / maybe stripe

we have the top three but are trying to figure a way to make non-normal (anery/snow/normal/amel) babies and am finding it very difficult to understand what to get to not get 'normal morph corns'


----------



## Davemum

Hi guys,

I have the following:

Males:

amel motley
snow

Females:

Lavender
Anery

What could i expect from any of these pairings?

Cheers

Amy


----------



## Ssthisto

amyloveys said:


> anery
> carolina
> sunglow
> ghost stripe
> butter / maybe stripe
> 
> we have the top three but are trying to figure a way to make non-normal (anery/snow/normal/amel) babies and am finding it very difficult to understand what to get to not get 'normal morph corns'


To get non-normals, you need to match like to like. So an Anery needs to be bred to something that is or carries Anery in order to produce non-normal offspring (anery to anery, anery to ghost, anery to snow...) and an Amel needs to be bred to an Amel or amel carrier to produce non-normal offspring (Amel to amel, amel to butter, amel to sunglow, amel to snow). And what you'll get is what those animals have in common with hets for whatever they don't have in common. 

In order to avoid anery/snow/amel/normal offspring... you need to have a PAIR of animals that have other genes - a butter with an amber, for example (you'll get all caramel het for amel and hypo) or an Opal with a Lavender Motley (Lavenders het Amel and motley), or a Ghost Stripe to a Butter Motley (you'll get all Motley-het-stripe, het anery, amel, caramel and hypo - Motley and Stripe are two flavours of the same gene).



Davemum said:


> Males:
> amel motley
> snow
> 
> Females:
> Lavender
> Anery


Amel motley to Lavender = 100% Normal het Amel, Lavender and Motley
Amel motley to Anery = 100% Normal het Amel, Anery and Motley

Snow to Lavender = 100% Normal het Amel, Anery and Lavender
Snow to Anery = 100% Anery het Amel

You might find out that you have hidden hets in your animals - for example, many corns are het for anery or amel, so seeing unexpected anery, amel or snow offspring pop up would prove those hets are there. Many lavenders are also het or homozygous Anery, so you might see Anery babies come out of the snow/Lavender pair.


----------



## amyloveys

:blush: is there anything that could be put with a normal corn to make anything but a normal corn. im sorry i feel so stupid


----------



## Ssthisto

Pretty much, no.

Unless the normal corn carries the code for more unusual traits, you won't GET more unusual traits out of a normal.

This is why I have two normals who are het for four different recessive traits - they look normal, but they have the code to produce things that aren't; I have two anerys who are het for three traits, and again have the code to produce different stuff.

If you want to breed something other than normals, you've GOT to choose your breeding stock based on the genetics they carry rather than just picking ones you like the looks of.


----------



## reptileboy11

lol kk here we go i have a male okeetee and a amel/candycane 
i want to breed them wats the best out of candycane amber hypo?? thx!!


----------



## Ssthisto

Okeetee won't make anything 'special'.

Candycane-variant Amel to Candycane-variant Amel is going to give you more Amels, some of which might be Candycanes.

Amel to hypo will make normals het amel and hypo.
Amel to Amber will make normals het amel, caramel and hypo.


----------



## Davemum

Ssthisto said:


> Amel motley to Lavender = 100% Normal het Amel, Lavender and Motley
> Amel motley to Anery = 100% Normal het Amel, Anery and Motley
> 
> Snow to Lavender = 100% Normal het Amel, Anery and Lavender
> Snow to Anery = 100% Anery het Amel
> 
> You might find out that you have hidden hets in your animals - for example, many corns are het for anery or amel, so seeing unexpected anery, amel or snow offspring pop up would prove those hets are there. Many lavenders are also het or homozygous Anery, so you might see Anery babies come out of the snow/Lavender pair.


Thankyou!!


----------



## reptileboy11

Ssthisto said:


> Okeetee won't make anything 'special'.
> 
> Candycane-variant Amel to Candycane-variant Amel is going to give you more Amels, some of which might be Candycanes.
> 
> Amel to hypo will make normals het amel and hypo.
> Amel to Amber will make normals het amel, caramel and hypo.


thx!!! wat should i get to breed to ma femailes to get STUNNERS???


----------



## madaboutreptiles

Here's a cornsnake one

male Ultramel Lavender
female Hypo Opal het stripe

what will the hatchlings be?


----------



## Ssthisto

You would have a 50% chance of Opal het Hypo possible het Stripe per egg.
You would have a 50% chance of Ultramel Lavender het Hypo possible het Stripe per egg.


----------



## Ssthisto

reptileboy11 said:


> thx!!! wat should i get to breed to ma femailes to get STUNNERS???


For your Okeetee, get the BEST Okeetee you can find - brightest most solid orange background, wide black saddle borders, strongly coloured saddles. Abbott's Okeetees usually fit this bill. This will increase your chances of getting more Okeetees.

If you have a candy-cane like Amel, get the BEST Candy Cane you can - WHITE background, strongly coloured saddles. Again, this maximises your chance of getting more good-quality Candy Canes although some of them might just be Amels...


----------



## Davemum

If i put a motley stripe male with a normale female would they be het for motley or for stripe? (Hope that makes sense!)

Thanks

Amy


----------



## Ssthisto

It depends on whether your "motley stripe" is a homozygous Motley with a "Ribbon/Zipper/Pinstripe" pattern ... or whether it is actually Motley het Stripe (het motley, het stripe - they're two flavours of the same gene) that happens to have the "Ribbon/Zipper/Pinstripe" motley pattern.

Being het stripe does NOT necessarily affect the pattern of a Motley.


----------



## Mitch_Moshi

Hi,

I'm all new to this and do not plan on breeding at present (The fact my corn is only 3 months old also says I won't be)

But I'm just reading up on genetics, more out of curiosity and wanting to be "in the know" of why my girl looks like she does.

She is an Anery Hurricane Motley, Although the Motley Pattern does seem to stop halfway down her body which I think makes her special.

http://photos-c.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v321/22/109/676007494/n676007494_1346042_7888.jpg

I don't know the parentage, but she came from Don at South Mountain Reptiles in Texas.

I was just curious as to what you genetic experts would think would be good suitors for her in the future, and what possible babies she could produce?

Thanks for your time,

Mitch x


----------



## Ssthisto

Ok, she's still motley all the way down - most Motleys don't have the perfect circles all the way down their bodies  

Now, bred to anything Anery (including Snows / etc) you'll get Anery het for Motley (and whatever else the male carries).
Bred to anything Motley you'll get motleys het for Anery (and whatever else the male carries).
Bred to anything Stripe and you'll get Motley het Stripes who are het for anery (and whatever else the male carries).

My druthers would be a Snow Stripe or the NICEST Hurricane Motley you can find to increase the "hurricane" look.


----------



## Mitch_Moshi

So any form of Anery Stripe would be a very nice partner for her in the future?

I'm a huge fan of the stripe pattern.

Hmmmmmm 

Thanks for your advice 

x


----------



## amyloveys

i now have the following hets unknown,

male snow
male normal
female anery
female crimson

what can i look forward to?

thanks!!


----------



## eeji

amyloveys said:


> i now have the following hets unknown,
> 
> male snow
> male normal
> female anery
> female crimson
> 
> what can i look forward to?
> 
> thanks!!


snow x anery = 100% anery het amel
normal x anery = 100% normal het anery
snow x crimson = 100% normal het hypo anery amel - some hatchlings _MAY_ look a little Miami-ish
normal x crimson = 100% normal het hypo - again some _may_ look miami-ish

: victory:


----------



## amyloveys

brilliant i have a sunkissed male available too, what would he make with the female anery and female crimson.

sorry i forgot i could use him if wanted!


----------



## eeji

amyloveys said:


> brilliant i have a sunkissed male available too, what would he make with the female anery and female crimson.
> 
> sorry i forgot i could use him if wanted!


SK x anery = 100% normal het SK & anery
SK x crimson = 100% normal het SK & hypo


----------



## ReptileGuy2008

hi what would i get with a 

normal female
amel male


----------



## Ssthisto

Normals het amel, barring any hidden hets. It would not be surprising if you got amels (meaning your normal was het amel and you just didn't know it) but you couldn't guarantee it.


----------



## ReptileGuy2008

*ok a royal one*

 normal male, het orange ghost
albino female.


----------



## Ssthisto

Well, since recessive morphs work the same way whether you're talking royals or corns...

Het orange ghost X albino =

100% Normal het Albino possible het Orange Ghost.


----------



## Joe1507

I stil dont fully get morphsm yself But I need to learn basics


----------



## cornmorphs

theres plenty of info on thi thread, and a lot more on the site.. 
good start to get learning i guess dude


----------



## emma18x

Could you tell me what i should get from the following please..

(No known hets)

Amel/Sunglow Mot X Butter

Blizzard X Butter

Pretty sure they'd be all Amels but just confused about the hets..


----------



## Ssthisto

You're right, they'd all be Amels.

From the Amel Mot X Butter you'd get Amels het Caramel and Motley. Sunglow is a selectively bred low/no white intensely coloured Amel (and many motleys qualify as sunglows) so it doesn't change the hets.

From Blizzard X Butter you'd get Amels het Charcoal and Caramel.


----------



## emma18x

Thanks Ssthisto : victory:


----------



## Dirtydozen

Ssthisto said:


> You're right, they'd all be Amels.
> 
> From the Amel Mot X Butter you'd get Amels het Caramel and Motley. Sunglow is a selectively bred low/no white intensely coloured Amel (and many motleys qualify as sunglows) so it doesn't change the hets.
> 
> From Blizzard X Butter you'd get Amels het Charcoal and Caramel.


unless her sunglow is a hypomel


----------



## Ssthisto

Dirtydozen said:


> unless her sunglow is a hypomel


Since it's a motley, there's no need to assume that there's hypo at work ALSO - since almost all Amel Motleys are "Sunglows".


----------



## JAM3S

heres one iv been wondering about for a while.. can you combine the diffused gene with the stripe gene?. I know you get stipe motleys so i assume it would be possible? I love the idea of producing Hypo bloodred stripes or even better Hypo plasma stripes :mf_dribble:


----------



## Ssthisto

JAM3S said:


> heres one iv been wondering about for a while.. can you combine the diffused gene with the stripe gene?. I know you get stipe motleys so i assume it would be possible? I love the idea of producing Hypo bloodred stripes or even better Hypo plasma stripes :mf_dribble:


Yes, you can breed Striped Diffused animals, but they don't work the same way as a "striped pattern motley" does (which could be homozygous motley, rather than being het motley/het stripe). And a Hypo Striped Blood would be as close to a solid bright orange snake as you could get. I'd personally prefer Fire Stripes, but there you go.

The way I personally would go about it, if you wanted Hypo Blood Stripes, is:

Hypo Bloodred to Ghost Stripe (since "hypo stripe" is pretty hard to distinguish from "light coloured normal stripe" Hypo Lavender Stripe would probably be equally difficult to distinguish.).

All offspring would be Hypo het Bloodred, Anery, Stripe.

Breed these together and keep all stripe patterned offspring.
Test-breed the striped offspring against homozygous bloodred NOT striped animals to determine whether you've got a Bloodred Stripe or just a Stripe (Any offspring with checkered bellies prove they're not homozygous blood).


----------



## eeji

Fire Stripes are awesomely bright.......

Ians Vivarium International Reptile Community Forum • Fire cornsnake

:mf_dribble:


----------



## JAM3S

cheers for that ssthisto. That fire stripe in insane..


----------



## Jan

*Amel x Carolina*

I have a female Carolina that was bred from an Amel Male and a Ghost Female. When I asked before, about suitable males to breed her to, I was told the best bet would be coral snow (amel + anery + hypo). So I'd get normal, amel, anery, hypo, ghost, snow, and coral snow from that.

What would I get if I was to put an Amel to her instead?

Many thanks 

Jan


----------



## eeji

Jan said:


> I have a female Carolina that was bred from an Amel Male and a Ghost Female. When I asked before, about suitable males to breed her to, I was told the best bet would be coral snow (amel + anery + hypo). So I'd get normal, amel, anery, hypo, ghost, snow, and coral snow from that.
> 
> What would I get if I was to put an Amel to her instead?
> 
> Many thanks
> 
> Jan


you'd get normals het amel ph anery & hypo, and amels ph anery & hypo


----------



## kiriak

eeji said:


> you'd get normals het amel ph anery & hypo, and amels ph anery & hypo


Just out of interest. What does ph mean?.......... possibly het?


----------



## eeji

sorry I was being lazy :blush:

ph = possible het


----------



## repkid

Hi

Could someone tell me

Opal x miami

Butter x miami

Thanks.


----------



## Ssthisto

Miami is basically "normal selectively bred for silvery background colour and coloured saddles."

Therefore, Butter X Normal = Normal het Amel and Caramel. They might be more tan than orange, though.

Opal X Normal = Normal het Amel and Lavender. Again, you might get more tan/grey backgrounds than orange ones.


----------



## repkid

So say if you had make it 100 to spend on a morph to breed with either a opal or butter what would u get?


----------



## Ssthisto

repkid said:


> So say if you had make it 100 to spend on a morph to breed with either a opal or butter what would u get?


If it's an EITHER/OR ... 

To breed with an Opal I would get something that is at least het lavender, and probably het amel too.

To breed with a Butter I would get something that is at least het caramel, and probably het amel too.

If it's BOTH...

I would get an Amel het Lavender and Caramel


----------



## repkid

Ssthisto said:


> If it's an EITHER/OR ...
> 
> To breed with an Opal I would get something that is at least het lavender, and probably het amel too.
> 
> To breed with a Butter I would get something that is at least het caramel, and probably het amel too.
> 
> If it's BOTH...
> 
> I would get an Amel het Lavender and Caramel


 Would would the two pairing you mentioned create?

I can realisticly only get a opal or butter. 

Plus one other to breed with that.


----------



## Ssthisto

repkid said:


> Would would the two pairing you mentioned create?
> 
> I can realisticly only get a opal or butter.
> 
> Plus one other to breed with that.


Opal + at-least-het-lavender, preferably het amel = Normals, Lavenders, Amels, Opals.

Butter + at-least-het-caramel, preferably het amel = Normals, Caramels, Amels and Butters


----------



## repkid

Ssthisto said:


> Opal + at-least-het-lavender, preferably het amel = Normals, Lavenders, Amels, Opals.
> 
> Butter + at-least-het-caramel, preferably het amel = Normals, Caramels, Amels and Butters


 OK

What would a snow x opal create.?

And opal x opal?

How much you reckon I'd get for a healthy opal hatchling?


----------



## Ssthisto

Snow X Opal:

Opal is Amel Lavender.
Snow is Amel Anery.

What do you think you'd get if you combine the two, if both parents have to carry the same gene to give it to their babies?

Opal X Opal will get you ALL opals.

I don't know what opals are currently selling for, though!


----------



## kennedykrew

repkid said:


> OK
> 
> What would a snow x opal create.?
> 
> And opal x opal?
> 
> How much you reckon I'd get for a healthy opal hatchling?


opal x opal = all opals
snow x opal = all amel het lavender and anery


----------



## kennedykrew

Nice explanation ssthisto:no1:


----------



## repkid

Ssthisto said:


> Snow X Opal:
> 
> Opal is Amel Lavender.
> Snow is Amel Anery.
> Amels het for anery and lavendars?
> What do you think you'd get if you combine the two, if both parents have to carry the same gene to give it to their babies?
> 
> Opal X Opal will get you ALL opals.
> 
> I don't know what opals are currently selling for, though!


50? Would you reckon at a complete guess?

Edit: And in all honesty I didnt seee the post above until after i posted this. LOL


----------



## repkid

One more :lol2:

Opal x blizzard?


----------



## eeji

repkid said:


> One more :lol2:
> 
> Opal x blizzard?


opal x blizzard = amel het lavender & charcoal

---------------- 
When Eeji was posting this, he was listening to: Praga Khan - Injected with a Poison


----------



## repkid

Alright.

In case I am only allowed 1 more corn instead of two. (which would be 2 opals.)


What morphs are there that would be more dominant than an anery motley? Or normal? That are under 100 pounds.E.g either of these bred to a butter would create all butters. If the butter morph is more dominant than them morphs.

Thanks.


Edit: Also, can you breed rats with corns? If so, what would you get from a bairds rat and a carolina and bairds rat with anery motley?

Are there any extra problems you may experience when breeding these species?


----------



## eeji

if you want all butters by breeding to a butter, you'd need another butter.
If you want a bit more variety from the butter you could get:

normal het amel and caramel for normals, caramels, amels and butters
amel het caramel for amels and butters
caramel het amel for caramels and butters

if you crossed rat species, you'd just get mutts.


----------



## repkid

oK

What would you get if you had 

anery motley x butter

anery motley x opal

anery motley x blizzard

anery motley x amel stripe

Sorry for all the questions, just want to make sure I breed what I want lol.

I dont really want any normals because they are going to be harder to sell than a higher end morph.


----------



## Ssthisto

anery motley x butter
Normal het Amel, Anery, Caramel, Motley 

anery motley x opal
Normal het Amel, Anery, Lavender, Motley

anery motley x blizzard
Normal het Amel, Anery, Charcoal, Motley (although you might get anery too, as lots of charcoals are het Anery)

anery motley x amel stripe
Motley het Stripes het Anery and Amel 



> I dont really want any normals because they are going to be harder to sell than a higher end morph.


Then you HAVE to breed "like to like". ANYTHING else will get you at least some normals.

That could be "Butter to Butter" - or either of the two ingredients of butter to a Butter.


----------



## repkid

Ssthisto said:


> anery motley x butter
> Normal het Amel, Anery, Caramel, Motley
> 
> anery motley x opal
> Normal het Amel, Anery, Lavender, Motley
> 
> anery motley x blizzard
> Normal het Amel, Anery, Charcoal, Motley (although you might get anery too, as lots of charcoals are het Anery)
> 
> anery motley x amel stripe
> Motley het Stripes het Anery and Amel
> 
> 
> Then you HAVE to breed "like to like". ANYTHING else will get you at least some normals.
> 
> That could be "Butter to Butter" - or either of the two ingredients of butter to a Butter.


 
Thanks.

Is there any combination including anery motley that means i well get some other morphs instead of all normals het .........?


----------



## eeji

snow, ghost, granite, ice, ultramel anery, avalanche, snopal would all give anery hatchlings, with some tasty hets for a longer term project 

---------------- When Eeji posted this, he was listening to: Sandy B - Love makes the world go round [deep dish 12 inch mix]


----------



## repkid

Ok.

I think I may consider selling my anery motley and get a pair of opals or some nice stripes to breed becuase there isn't really much I can create with anery motley. He is a nice boy though so I doubt I actually will sell him. Will just have to work extra hard on convincing my Dad to let me get 2 more corns.


Thanks for all the help eeji and Ssthisto!


----------



## samjay

what would i get if i was to breed my snow corn, to a pastel ghost het. motley?

got my snow hatchling at the mo, thinking of buying the ghost, seeing what the possible hatchlings would be ? 
x


----------



## eeji

samjay said:


> what would i get if i was to breed my snow corn, to a pastel ghost het. motley?
> 
> got my snow hatchling at the mo, thinking of buying the ghost, seeing what the possible hatchlings would be ?
> x


they'd be all anery het amel and hypo, poss het motley :2thumb:


----------



## repkid

YET more questions:lol2:

amel stripe x amel stripe

anery stripe x amel stripe

amel stripe x normal stripe

anery stripe x norma stripe

Thanks again.


----------



## eeji

amel stripe x amel stripe = amel stripe

anery stripe x amel stripe = normal stripe het anery and amel

amel stripe x normal stripe = normal stripe het amel

anery stripe x normal stripe = normal stripe het anery


----------



## repkid

Cheers.

Hopefully the last ones.

amel stripe x ghost stripe?

ghost stripe x ghost stripe

ghost stripe x anery stripe


----------



## eeji

amel stripe x ghost stripe = normal stripe het amel, anery, hypo

ghost stripe x ghost stripe = ghost stripe

ghost stripe x anery stripe = anery stripe het anery

you'll find one you like eventually!  :2thumb:


----------



## repkid

eeji said:


> amel stripe x ghost stripe = normal stripe het amel, anery, hypo
> 
> ghost stripe x ghost stripe = ghost stripe
> 
> ghost stripe x anery stripe = anery stripe het anery
> 
> you'll find one you like eventually!  :2thumb:


 Ok.

Have found a pair of ghost stripes for sale atm.

Now just to convnce my Dad.:devil:


*Thank you very much!*


----------



## eeji

yw, good luck!


----------



## repkid

Amel Stripe het Bloodred ph Hypo Lavender x Amel Stripe het Bloodred ph Hypo Lavender???

Would you get:

50% amel stripes het bloodred and ph hypo lavender
50% bloodreds het amel, stripe and ph hypo lavendar.

Loving the look of Nige's list.:whistling2:


----------



## Athravan

repkid said:


> Amel Stripe het Bloodred ph Hypo Lavender x Amel Stripe het Bloodred ph Hypo Lavender???
> 
> Would you get:
> 
> 50% amel stripes het bloodred and ph hypo lavender
> 50% bloodreds het amel, stripe and ph hypo lavendar.
> 
> Loving the look of Nige's list.:whistling2:


No, if both parents are visual amel stripe, then ALL the babies are homozygous amel & stripe too. Ignoring the PH then you'd get

75% Amel Stripe 66% het blood
25% Amel Stripe Bloodred (Fire Stripe)

Obviously with the possible hets they could all be possible het hypo or lavender*
*


----------



## repkid

Athravan said:


> No, if both parents are visual amel stripe, then ALL the babies are homozygous amel & stripe too. Ignoring the PH then you'd get
> 
> 75% Amel Stripe 66% het blood
> 25% Amel Stripe Bloodred (Fire Stripe)
> 
> Obviously with the possible hets they could all be possible het hypo or lavender


 May have to get myself a pair of those :whistling2::lol2:.

Thanks.

Also,
Normal Stripe het Anery ph Amel Hypo Lavender x itself
Normal Stripe het Lavender ph Amel Anery Hypo x itself


----------



## Ssthisto

repkid said:


> Normal Stripe het Anery ph Amel Hypo Lavender x itself
> Normal Stripe het Lavender ph Amel Anery Hypo x itself


Well, Normal Stripe het Anery X Normal Stripe het Anery =

75% chance normal stripes (poss het Anery)
25% chance Anery Stripe

Unless you prove that they're DEFINITELY het for any of the others, you can't expect to see the other traits crop up, and I personally wouldn't describe the offspring as possible hets either.

Same goes for the other pairing, but replace the word "anery" with "Lavender".


----------



## madaboutreptiles

This one is a little complex but here go's

Amel Motley het Caramel/Striped/Bloodred poss ghost x Same

I have a trio of these and I cant wait to see what pops out


----------



## kimberley9447

madaboutreptiles said:


> This one is a little complex but here go's
> 
> Amel Motley het Caramel/Striped/Bloodred poss ghost x Same
> 
> I have a trio of these and I cant wait to see what pops out


If they are not het ghost you will get:

27/64 Amelanistic, Motley (66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Stripe) 
9/64 Amelanistic, Bloodred, Motley (66% poss. het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Stripe) 
9/64 Butter, Motley (66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Stripe) 
3/64 Sulfur, Motley (66% poss. het. Stripe) 
9/64 Amelanistic, Stripe (66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Caramel) 
3/64 Amelanistic, Bloodred, Stripe (66% poss. het. Caramel) 
3/64 Butter, Stripe (66% poss. het. Bloodred) 
1/64 Sulfur, Stripe

If both are het ghost you will get:

243/1024 Amelanistic, Motley (66% poss. het. Anerythristic, 66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic, 66% poss. het. Stripe) 
81/1024 Snow, Motley (66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic, 66% poss. het. Stripe) 
81/1024 Amelanistic, Bloodred, Motley (66% poss. het. Anerythristic, 66% poss. het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic, 66% poss. het. Stripe) 
27/1024 Snow, Bloodred, Motley (66% poss. het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic, 66% poss. het. Stripe) 
81/1024 Butter, Motley (66% poss. het. Anerythristic, 66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic, 66% poss. het. Stripe) 
27/1024 Snow, Caramel, Motley (66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic, 66% poss. het. Stripe) 
27/1024 Sulfur, Motley (66% poss. het. Anerythristic, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic, 66% poss. het. Stripe) 
9/1024 Snow, Bloodred, Caramel, Motley (66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic, 66% poss. het. Stripe) 
81/1024 Amelanistic, Hypomelanistic, Motley (66% poss. het. Anerythristic, 66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Stripe) 
27/1024 Snow, Hypomelanistic, Motley (66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Stripe) 
27/1024 Amelanistic, Bloodred, Hypomelanistic, Motley (66% poss. het. Anerythristic, 66% poss. het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Stripe) 
9/1024 Snow, Bloodred, Hypomelanistic, Motley (66% poss. het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Stripe) 
27/1024 Butter, Hypomelanistic, Motley (66% poss. het. Anerythristic, 66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Stripe) 
9/1024 Snow, Amber, Motley (66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Stripe) 
9/1024 Sulfur, Hypomelanistic, Motley (66% poss. het. Anerythristic, 66% poss. het. Stripe) 
3/1024 Snow, Bloodred, Caramel, Hypomelanistic, Motley (66% poss. het. Stripe) 
81/1024 Amelanistic, Stripe (66% poss. het. Anerythristic, 66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic) 
27/1024 Snow, Stripe (66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic) 
27/1024 Amelanistic, Bloodred, Stripe (66% poss. het. Anerythristic, 66% poss. het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic) 
9/1024 Snow, Bloodred, Stripe (66% poss. het. Caramel, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic) 
27/1024 Butter, Stripe (66% poss. het. Anerythristic, 66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic) 
9/1024 Snow, Caramel, Stripe (66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic) 
9/1024 Sulfur, Stripe (66% poss. het. Anerythristic, 66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic) 
3/1024 Snow, Bloodred, Caramel, Stripe (66% poss. het. Hypomelanistic) 
27/1024 Amelanistic, Hypomelanistic, Stripe (66% poss. het. Anerythristic, 66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Caramel) 
9/1024 Snow, Hypomelanistic, Stripe (66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Caramel) 
9/1024 Amelanistic, Bloodred, Hypomelanistic, Stripe (66% poss. het. Anerythristic, 66% poss. het. Caramel) 
3/1024 Snow, Bloodred, Hypomelanistic, Stripe (66% poss. het. Caramel) 
9/1024 Butter, Hypomelanistic, Stripe (66% poss. het. Anerythristic, 66% poss. het. Bloodred) 
3/1024 Snow, Amber, Stripe (66% poss. het. Bloodred) 
3/1024 Sulfur, Hypomelanistic, Stripe (66% poss. het. Anerythristic) 
1/1024 Snow, Bloodred, Caramel, Hypomelanistic, Stripe


----------



## madaboutreptiles

You can see why I am all excited..............the downsde is it will be almost impossible to sort them out as hatchlings......:lol2:


----------



## cornmorphs

lets hope they are not het ghost lol


----------



## madaboutreptiles

cornmorphs said:


> lets hope they are not het ghost lol


 
:lol2::lol2::lol2: tell me about it..............


----------



## kumqat

I have 2 males 1 snow and 1 ghost motley that has a lot of striping and 4females miami,amel,anery motley and amel stripe assuming no known hets. what would you recommend as pairings for future breeding. Also could you advise as to possible outcomes of each pairing.


----------



## Blackecho

kumqat said:


> I have 2 males 1 snow and 1 ghost motley that has a lot of striping and 4females miami,amel,anery motley and amel stripe assuming no known hets. what would you recommend as pairings for future breeding. Also could you advise as to possible outcomes of each pairing.


Snow x Miami = Normals het Snow
Snow x Amel = Amels het Anery
Snow x Anery Motley = Anerys het Amel Motley
Snow x Amel Stripe = Amels het Anery Stripe

Ghost Motley x Miami = Normals het Ghost Motley
Ghost Motley x Amel = Normals het Coral Motley
Ghost Motley x Anery Motley = Anery Motleys het Hypo
Ghost Motley x Amel Stripe = Motleys het Coral


----------



## kumqat

Blackecho said:


> Snow x Miami = Normals het Snow
> Snow x Amel = Amels het Anery
> Snow x Anery Motley = Anerys het Amel Motley
> Snow x Amel Stripe = Amels het Anery Stripe
> 
> Ghost Motley x Miami = Normals het Ghost Motley
> Ghost Motley x Amel = Normals het Coral Motley
> Ghost Motley x Anery Motley = Anery Motleys het Hypo
> Ghost Motley x Amel Stripe = Motleys het Coral


 cheers for the info :2thumb:


----------



## madman2

In the post above reffering to the PH ghost pairing... Surely you will be able to determine if they are PH Ghost as Snows would be produced (known Genetically as Trial Pairing)??? Also Ss WHAT ON EARTH DO YOU:
1. Do for a job (are you involved in genetics???)
2. Use to calculate this!!!!

cheers no offence ment by the first question by the way!!!:2thumb:


----------



## Ssthisto

With regards to the "possible het ghost" pairing, producing snows only proves the parents were het for Anerythristic. Because the parents are both visual Amelanistic, it would be difficult to prove you had a homozygous hypo without breeding trials.

I didn't calculate the pairing above - it looks like it's come from one of the web genetic calculators, which I tend to avoid because the majority do not handle codominant traits correctly and list the full possible hets/genotypes when realistically speaking, _without_ breeding trials, the results above are:

*Amel Motley het Caramel/Striped/Bloodred poss ghost x Same*

(one or both is *not het* for Hypo *AND *Anery):
9/16 *Amel Motley* possible Fire Motley otherwise poss. het Caramel, Striped, Blood.
3/16 *Butter Motley* possible Sulfur Motley otherwise poss. het. Bloodred, Stripe
3/16 *Amel Stripe* possible Fire Stripe otherwise poss. het. Bloodred, Caramel
1/16 *Butter Stripe* possible Sulfur Stripe otherwise poss. het. Bloodred
Without breeding trials you can't prove whether those white-bellied corn hatchlings are homozygous bloodred or not.

(BOTH animals are het for BOTH Anery AND Hypo):
32/64 *Amel Motley*_ possible_ Fire Motley, Hypo Amel Motley _or_ Hypo Fire Motley otherwise poss. het. Anerythristic, Bloodred, Caramel, Hypomelanistic, Stripe
12/64 *Snow Motley* _possible _Avalanche Motley, Coral Snow Motley, Xanthic Snow Motley, Coral Avalanche Motley, Xanthic Avalanche Motley, Amber Snow Motley _or_ Amber Avalanche Motley otherwise poss. het. Bloodred, Caramel, Hypomelanistic, Stripe
9/64 *Butter Motley* _possible_ Sulfur Motley, Hypo Butter Motley _or_ Hypo Sulfur Motley otherwise poss. het. Anerythristic, Bloodred, Hypomelanistic, Stripe
4/64 *Amel Stripe* _possible_ Fire Stripe, Hypo Amel Stripe _or_ Hypo Fire Stripe otherwise poss. het. Anerythristic, Bloodred, Caramel, Hypomelanistic
4/64 *Snow Stripe* _possible _Avalanche Stripe, Coral Snow Stripe, Xanthic Snow Stripe, Coral Avalanche Stripe, Xanthic Avalanche Stripe, Amber Snow Stripe _or_ Amber Avalanche Stripe otherwise poss. het. Bloodred, Caramel, Hypomelanistic
3/64 *Butter Stripe* _possible_ Sulfur Stripe, Hypo Butter Stripe _or_ Hypo Sulfur Stripe otherwise poss. het. Anerythristic, Bloodred, Hypomelanistic


Have fun trying to work out which of them are homozygous hypo (since it's not as visible on amel-based morphs) or homozygous bloodred straight out of the egg! You can make some GUESSES, but this particular pairing is what I would call a "lots of keepers" project. You're going to need to keep almost EVERYTHING to test it out.

And to answer your question:

I work in web design... and I work these things out in my head or on paper if I need to


----------



## tigger79

heres one for u Nige

Snow het strip poss het hypo x classic stripe het amel poss het butter


----------



## Ssthisto

You're only guaranteed:

25% chance of Normal het Amel, Anery, Stripe
25% chance of Stripe het Amel, Anery
25% chance of Amel het Stripe, Anery
25% chance of Amel Stripe het Anery

Because the parents are described as POSSIBLE het other things I wouldn't even consider describing the offspring as such until and unless the het is proven in the parent.


----------



## Blackecho

tigger79 said:


> heres one for u Nige
> 
> Snow het strip poss het hypo x classic stripe het amel poss het butter


OK, here goes:

12.5% Amel Het Stripe
12.5% Amel Het Anery Het Stripe
12.5% Amel Stripe
12.5% Amel Stripe Het Anery
12.5% Normal Stripe Het Snow
12.5% Normal Stripe Het Amel
12.5% Normal Het Snow Het Stripe
12.5% Normal Het Amel Het Stripe

all ph Butter, ph Hypo.

Fingers crossed


----------



## Ssthisto

Blackecho said:


> OK, here goes:
> 
> 12.5% Amel Het Stripe
> 12.5% Amel Het Anery Het Stripe
> 12.5% Amel Stripe
> 12.5% Amel Stripe Het Anery
> 12.5% Normal Stripe Het Snow
> 12.5% Normal Stripe Het Amel
> 12.5% Normal Het Snow Het Stripe
> 12.5% Normal Het Amel Het Stripe
> 
> all ph Butter, ph Hypo.
> 
> Fingers crossed


They've all got to be het Anery, Blackecho - Snow is homozygous Anery homozygous Amel.


----------



## Blackecho

I knew that really, just did it quickly at work, thought there might be something or other wrong


----------



## nikki.n.tom

if i breed my two snows together don't no the hets. what will I get?

thanks


----------



## eeji

nikki.n.tom said:


> if i breed my two snows together don't no the hets. what will I get?
> 
> thanks


all snows :2thumb:


----------



## SnakeMaster

Is there anything you can mix to get a Bloodred Corn Snake, except of couce two Bloodred?

Snakemaster


----------



## eeji

both parents need to have bloodred in them (either **** or het)


----------



## Ssthisto

SnakeMaster said:


> Is there anything you can mix to get a Bloodred Corn Snake, except of couce two Bloodred?
> 
> Snakemaster


You could breed:

Sulfur to Granite for Bloodreds het Amel, Anery and Caramel
Pewter to Fire for Bloodreds het Amel, Charcoal
Lavender Blood to Bloodred Stripe for Bloodreds het Lavender and Stripe

And so on.

The key is that both parents have to either BE homozygous bloodred/diffuse or be a heterozygous carrier of the trait. That's because Bloodred is a base ingredient and you can't make it using two other traits.


----------



## madman2

Ssthisto said:


> You could breed:
> 
> Sulfur to Granite for Bloodreds het Amel, Anery and Caramel
> Pewter to Fire for Bloodreds het Amel, Charcoal
> *Lavender Blood* to Bloodred Stripe for Bloodreds het Lavender and Stripe
> 
> And so on.
> 
> The key is that both parents have to either BE homozygous bloodred/diffuse or be a heterozygous carrier of the trait. That's because Bloodred is a base ingredient and you can't make it using two other traits.


in bold::: also the same as a plasma right?? or not


----------



## eeji

madman2 said:


> in bold::: also the same as a plasma right?? or not


correct


----------



## saki

i have a stunning sunglow motely male...

what would YOU buy as a female to breed him with??

nothing too pricey but will give me some good babbies??


----------



## Blackecho

The only thing you could make first generation is Normals or more Amels unless it has any hets?


----------



## eeji

i'd get a bloodred stripe, to make motley het fire stripe


----------



## saki

eeji said:


> i'd get a bloodred stripe, to make motley het fire stripe


thats sounds good but a little bit out of my budget, lol


----------



## Ssthisto

What's your budget for a single snake?


----------



## JAM3S

What would i expect from a hypo Lav x Snow pairing?


----------



## repkid

JAM3S said:


> What would i expect from a hypo Lav x Snow pairing?


 I'm not 100% sure but if they are all recessive morphs then 100% normals het hypo, lavendar and snow.

But I'm not 100% on that one, still learning.

I would probably wait til someone more experienced answers lol.


----------



## JAM3S

Well im not sure about the genes in a lavender. I heard the original lavenders came from the F2 generation of a snow x 'normal' pairing. So would lavender x snow have the ability to produce snows, amels and anerys? and then the hypo as an added het.


----------



## SnakeBreeder

JAM3S said:


> What would i expect from a hypo Lav x Snow pairing?


That would produce normals het hypo, het lavender, her Anery and het amel. ( Could be called het hypo Snopal )



JAM3S said:


> Well im not sure about the genes in a lavender. I heard the original lavenders came from the F2 generation of a snow x 'normal' pairing. So would lavender x snow have the ability to produce snows, amels and anerys? and then the hypo as an added het.


Nope sorry. Lavender is a gene and can only be produced if you breed snakes together that are already carrying the gene.
The first lavenders were called Mocha's and were produced by SerpebCo in USA. 
Animals carrying the gene were line bred to produce the Lavenders you now see in the collections.

Stephen


----------



## JAM3S

That makes a little bit more sense but lavenders still confuse me. I have a hypo het lavender lined up for the hypo lav in the future but i picked up a snow today and was just curious. Thanks


----------



## repkid

Butter stripe x butter het stripe?

Would i get 75% butter stripe and 25% butter het stripe?


----------



## Blackecho

repkid said:


> Butter stripe x butter het stripe?
> 
> Would i get 75% butter stripe and 25% butter het stripe?


50/50, not 75/25.


----------



## Ssthisto

Exactly. The only time you get a 75% / 25% split is if you're working with two heterozygous-for-dominant trait animals. For example, if you bred a het Amel to a het Amel you get 75% dominant "not amel" animals.


----------



## repkid

Oh.

I am confused lol.

Becuase butter stripe bred gives a 100% chance to pass on butter and stripe.

So that's already 50% of the outcome from one parent.

Then butter HET stripe, there's a 100% chance it'll pass on butter but only 50% chance it will pass on stripe which is 25% for its half of the genetics.

So you will get all butters for definate.

And if you add you get a 75% chance of them being stripe?

Don't get why it is 50/50, please explain where i'm going wrong.


----------



## Blackecho

The offspring need both genes (1 from each parent) for a recessive gene to become visual (homozygous).

So the Butter Stripe will give one gene and the Butter het Stripe will have a 50% chance of passing the Stripe gene.


----------



## w33connie

*Hiya*



cornmorphs said:


> i thought i would start this up for a few people who had commented in the classifieds area.
> lets see what comes up, any morphs you want to know the predicted outcome of?



How do you get lavenders????


----------



## Blackecho

w33connie said:


> How do you get lavenders????


Breed 2 lavenders together.


----------



## eeji

w33connie said:


> How do you get lavenders????


each parent needs to be carrying the lavender gene, whether its visual or het.

If both parents are lavender, then all hatclings will be lavender.

Theres less chance of each egg hatching out lavender if one parent is visual and one het (50%), and even less chance if both parents are het (25%).


----------



## repkid

Blackecho said:


> The offspring need both genes (1 from each parent) for a recessive gene to become visual (homozygous).
> 
> So the Butter Stripe will give one gene and the Butter het Stripe will have a 50% chance of passing the Stripe gene.


So that'd make it 75/25.

Because you get 50% genes from each parent. From the butter stripe it will pass on the full 50% as butter stripe.

But the butter het stripe will pass on all 50% butter and 25% stripe.

So where am I going wrong then? :S


----------



## Blackecho

Ok, I'll try and simplify it a bit.


Genes come in pairs and and offspring will need both stripe genes to be visually stripe.


Parent A will pass 1 stripe gene to each offspring. So they all have at least 1 gene.

Parent B will pass the stripe gene to 50%(statistically) of the offspring.


So 50% will have 1 gene and 50% will have both genes.

Does that help?


----------



## repkid

Blackecho said:


> Ok, I'll try and simplify it a bit.
> 
> 
> Genes come in pairs and and offspring will need both stripe genes to be visually stripe.
> 
> 
> Parent A will pass 1 stripe gene to each offspring. So they all have at least 1 gene.
> 
> Parent B will pass the stripe gene to 50%(statistically) of the offspring.
> 
> 
> So 50% will have 1 gene and 50% will have both genes.
> 
> Does that help?


Oh so it'd be

50% butter stripe
25% butter het stripe
25% butter???


----------



## Blackecho

repkid said:


> Oh so it'd be
> 
> 50% butter stripe
> 25% butter het stripe
> 25% butter???


They will all have at least one Stripe gene, so must all be at least het stripe.


----------



## repkid

Blackecho said:


> They will all have at least one Stripe gene, so must all be at least het stripe.


Ah ok.

Thanks for the help.


----------



## Blackecho

And hence back to the 50/50.

Is that clearer now?


----------



## repkid

Blackecho said:


> And hence back to the 50/50.
> 
> Is that clearer now?


Yes.

Also I heard somewhere that there is only 1 codom morph of corn snakes?

And what combinations do you need to create combination morphs? e.g caramel I think.


----------



## Blackecho

Caramel is a gene itself, mix it with Amel to get Butter.


----------



## repkid

Blackecho said:


> Caramel is a gene itself, mix it with Amel to get Butter.


 So if you bred amel stripe to caramel stripe you'd get all butter stripes?


----------



## Athravan

repkid said:


> So if you bred amel stripe to caramel stripe you'd get all butter stripes?


No, you'd get all normals het for amel, caramel, stripe (ie. het butter stripe)


----------



## Blackecho

Yep, you'd have to breed them back together to get Butters.


----------



## repkid

Blackecho said:


> Yep, you'd have to breed them back together to get Butters.


 Oh ok I might aswell just get what I was going to get then.


----------



## intravenous

Athravan said:


> No, you'd get all normals het for amel, caramel, stripe (ie. het butter stripe)


Mmm, no...I believe you'd get all stripes het for amel and caramel?


----------



## repkid

intravenous said:


> Mmm, no...I believe you'd get all stripes het for amel and caramel?


Oh yeah good point?


----------



## eeji

you'd be expecting all normal stripe het caramel and amel.


----------



## rabbit

To get normal lavender offspring - does it have to be a normal lavender x normal lavender pairing or would I get some from a normal lavender x normal het lavender?

Thanks :notworthy:


----------



## Ssthisto

If you want lavender offspring, you can cross any lavender or lavender carrier. That could be:

Lavender X Lavender
Lavender X het Lavender
het Lavender X het Lavender

Opal X Lavender/het Lavender
Lavender Blood X Lavender/het Lavender/Opal
Lavender Motley X Lavender/het Lavender/Opal/Lavender Blood

And so on. As long as both parents are AT LEAST het for lavender, you are likely to get some lavender offspring.


----------



## rabbit

Cheers mate - i'm investing quite a bit of money and don't want to get it wrong :notworthy:



Ssthisto said:


> If you want lavender offspring, you can cross any lavender or lavender carrier. That could be:
> 
> Lavender X Lavender
> Lavender X het Lavender
> het Lavender X het Lavender
> 
> Opal X Lavender/het Lavender
> Lavender Blood X Lavender/het Lavender/Opal
> Lavender Motley X Lavender/het Lavender/Opal/Lavender Blood
> 
> And so on. As long as both parents are AT LEAST het for lavender, you are likely to get some lavender offspring.


----------



## saki

hi guys...

sunglow matley and normal amel??


----------



## Ssthisto

Sunglow is selectively bred Amel, so Amel Motley X Amel will produce all Amel het for Motley. They may show enhanced colouring, but they're unlikely to be Sunglows.


----------



## saki

ok hows about....

amel motley x anery motley het for amel??


----------



## Ssthisto

You have a 50% chance per egg of Normal Motley het for Anery and Amel; the other 50% chance is Amel motley het for Anery (barring hidden hets).


----------



## saki

aaah, i just dont know what to breed him with 

i dont want to spend too much money but dont really want a high chance of normals, lol

what do you think??


----------



## saki

any recommendations??


----------



## Ssthisto

Well, to avoid normals, breed him either to something that's Amel (you'll get all Amels) or to something that's Motley (you'll get all Motleys) or Stripe (again, motleys) - or both.


----------



## saki

just to be pain....

what motley/stripe would you choose?? :blush:

with speanding a hell of alot... lol


----------



## Ssthisto

I personally would do Anery Stripe het Amel - then you get two flavours of motley, and if you're lucky you might find your Amel Motley is het for stripe (in which case you might get stripes too).


----------



## chellenjon

*another corn morph question*

i have posted about this one before but still no wiser, a few people have seen this and they don't know what he is either, i bought him 2 years ago as an anery, he's obviously not one of those, any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Ssthisto

Could be a ghost or a very browned-out Anery - can you get a better photograph including the head in natural lighting?


----------



## chellenjon

i will try, he's a quick one though and doesn't like posing.


----------



## chellenjon

this is the best i could do i'm afraid, the nearest thing i got to natural light was the chams uv, he really doesn't like staying still so i tried to follow him steadily as possible, thrown in one of his underside too just in case it helps.


----------



## Ssthisto

He looks a bit reddy-orangey to me, which would imply that he's a normal, but not a particularly bright one.

It's still possible he's a browned-out ghost, mind you!


----------



## eeji

that belly says hypo to me, so could be a dull hypo


----------



## chellenjon

thanks for the replies, someone else suggested ghost, he's not typical anything so i doubt i'll ever be 100% sure.


----------



## calsmum22

what would you get out of a lavender het hypo bloodred and bloodred het anery?


----------



## eeji

calsmum22 said:


> what would you get out of a lavender het hypo bloodred and bloodred het anery?


50% normal het bloodred and lavender, possible het anery and hypo
50% bloodred het lavender, possible het anery and hypo


----------



## calsmum22

eeji said:


> 50% normal het bloodred and lavender, possible het anery and hypo
> 50% bloodred het lavender, possible het anery and hypo


 would you not get any plasma or het plasma?


----------



## Ssthisto

Het bloodred and lavender IS "het plasma" 

You wouldn't get any visual Lavender Bloodreds because both parents need to carry lavender in order to pass it on visually to their offspring.


----------



## eeji

i don't like saying het for combinations (eg plasma: bloodred + lavender) because there is usually more than the one combination that can be got using the hets.


----------



## candyazz

*don't know what to pair together*

i have 

Male 

snow 
normal ( both parents meant to be het stripe)
Anery a stripe motley het anery b 
ghost ( mum ghost and my boys aunt i have and dad a peachy pastal male )

female 

Snow 
Amel 
Ghost motley hypo
anery het strip
anery het stripe and motley
hypo motley


and what do u think my next buy should be plz


----------



## Blackecho

What do you like or want to make? - there are too many choices really. Personally I like Butters.


----------



## Ssthisto

candyazz said:


> Male
> 
> snow
> normal ( both parents meant to be het stripe)
> Anery a stripe motley het anery b
> ghost ( mum ghost and my boys aunt i have and dad a peachy pastal male )
> 
> female
> 
> Snow
> Amel
> Ghost motley hypo
> anery het strip
> anery het stripe and motley
> hypo motley


Well, your Anery female is het for EITHER Stripe OR Motley if it has a normal blotched pattern - not both. An animal that is het for both looks like a Motley.

I would put the Normal possible-het Stripe male to the Anery het Stripe and the Anery het Stripe or Motley. If you get striped babies out of the first pairing you know he's het stripe. If you get striped babies out of the second pairing you know the female is het Stripe but NOT motley; if you get motley babies out, you know she's het Motley but not het stripe.

I'd use your Anery Motley male on the Hypo Motley female, and on the Ghost Motley female.

I'd use your Snow male on the Snow female and the Amel female.


----------



## candyazz

my anery male het anery b has a broken stripe and the white tummy with no markings at all he just a baby just now


----------



## chellenjon

i've got an idea of what i'm going to get but does anyone know the percentages coz i'm sure i'll get a variation, first pair, female snow def het hypo, male hypo def het anery and caramel, second pair female ghost stripe+motley, male hypo stripe+motley def het anery and amel.


----------



## Ssthisto

Snow het Hypo X Hypo het Anery, Caramel = 
25% chance of Normal het Hypo, Anery, Amel, poss Caramel
25% chance of Hypo het Anery, Amel, poss Caramel
25% chance of Anery het Hypo, Amel, poss Caramel
25% chance of Ghost het Amel poss Caramel

What exactly is the genotype of your "stripe+motley" animals - are they Ribbon Motleys that might be homozygous motley or motley-het-stripe - or are they definitely Motley het Stripe (one Stripe parent)?

The answer will make the difference as to the results you get.


----------



## chellenjon

Ssthisto said:


> Snow het Hypo X Hypo het Anery, Caramel =
> 25% chance of Normal het Hypo, Anery, Amel, poss Caramel
> 25% chance of Hypo het Anery, Amel, poss Caramel
> 25% chance of Anery het Hypo, Amel, poss Caramel
> 25% chance of Ghost het Amel poss Caramel
> 
> What exactly is the genotype of your "stripe+motley" animals - are they Ribbon Motleys that might be homozygous motley or motley-het-stripe - or are they definitely Motley het Stripe (one Stripe parent)?
> 
> The answer will make the difference as to the results you get.


this is where i get confused lol, ribbon motley i think is the answer to that.


----------



## Ssthisto

Right, if they're ribbon motleys, you'd expect

50% chance Hypo Motley het anery, possible het Amel
50% chance Ghost Motley possible het Amel

If you get any stripes, you know they're both Motley-het-Stripe.


----------



## chellenjon

Ssthisto said:


> Right, if they're ribbon motleys, you'd expect
> 
> 50% chance Hypo Motley het anery, possible het Amel
> 50% chance Ghost Motley possible het Amel
> 
> If you get any stripes, you know they're both Motley-het-Stripe.


 
thank you, i'm determined to get my head round it all one day, thats pretty much what i was hoping for with that pair.


----------



## candyazz

candyazz said:


> my anery male het anery b has a broken stripe and the white tummy with no markings at all he just a baby just now



is my boy a Ribbon Motley alway then 

sorry for being blonde just so many dif morphs and types just now :lol2:


----------



## Ssthisto

I'm not sure whether yours is a Ribbon Motley or a stripe that "cubes out" towards the hind end, Candyazz.

I'd breed him to a DEFINITE stripe - if you get anything that's clearly a motley, you know he's a Ribbon Motley. If you get all stripes, he's a cubey stripe.


----------



## calsmum22

i have a male caramel ph amel and a female amel when these were bred last year they produced a clutch of 17 of which about half were amel`s and half were butter`s,with getting visual butter`s what hets would the female amel have to produce these?


----------



## Ssthisto

The female Amel HAS to be het for Caramel - otherwise you won't get any Butter.

It's interesting that you didn't get any Normals or Caramels in a clutch that size, though!


----------



## eeji

she's het caramel. butter is a combination of amel and caramel.


----------



## Blackecho

And he's not ph anymore!


----------



## katiec

Ok looking for a male and dont know what to get? Like motleys and stripped. 2 females are butter (butter x goldust) and snow (amel x snow), any male I could get to make interesting morphs with them?


----------



## midori

ok, help!!! :lol2:

what possible combinations could result from the following potential matings please? What possible hets? 

female lavender het opal (amel?) and motley

Male bloodred het lavender possibly het hypo

unsexed at the moment: 

Striped pastel motley 

Snow (no known/unknown hets)

Amel (no known/unknown hets)


I can sort of work it out, and know some of what I'll get, thanks to a very helpful person, but not very well. I can't work out the genetics calculator thingy. 

Thankyou!


----------



## Ssthisto

Bloodred het Lavender and poss. hypo X Female Lavender het Amel Motley =

Normals het lavender and bloodred, poss het amel motley, even less likely het hypo
Lavenders het bloodred, poss het amel motley, even less likely het hypo

Snow X Amel = Amel het Anery
Snow X Ghost Motley ("pastel striped motley") = Anery het Amel, Hypo, Motley
Snow X Lavender het Amel Motley = Normals het Lavender, Amel, Anery and Amels het Lavender, Anery
Snow X Bloodred het Lavender = Normals het Bloodred, Amel, Anery, poss het Lavender

Ghost Motley X Lavender het Amel Motley = Normals het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Lavender, Motley and Motleys het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Lavender
Ghost Motley X Amel = Normals het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Motley

Amel X Bloodred het Lavender = Normals het Amel, Bloodred, poss het Lavender.


----------



## midori

Ssthisto said:


> Bloodred het Lavender and poss. hypo X Female Lavender het Amel Motley =
> 
> Normals het lavender and bloodred, poss het amel motley, even less likely het hypo
> Lavenders het bloodred, poss het amel motley, even less likely het hypo
> 
> Snow X Amel = Amel het Anery
> Snow X Ghost Motley ("pastel striped motley") = Anery het Amel, Hypo, Motley
> Snow X Lavender het Amel Motley = Normals het Lavender, Amel, Anery and Amels het Lavender, Anery
> Snow X Bloodred het Lavender = Normals het Bloodred, Amel, Anery, poss het Lavender
> 
> Ghost Motley X Lavender het Amel Motley = Normals het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Lavender, Motley and Motleys het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Lavender
> Ghost Motley X Amel = Normals het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Motley
> 
> Amel X Bloodred het Lavender = Normals het Amel, Bloodred, poss het Lavender.


 
Thankyou so, so much! :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:

So, potentially I could eventually produce some nice snakes? (eg. depending on what offspring I got and if I bred from them, so only 6 years or so to go.... :lol2

Although probably much easier ways to do it... 

Thankyou very much.


----------



## calsmum22

what the outcome be of a male caramel to a female creamsicle.


----------



## Ssthisto

Male caramel to female creamsicle will produce all "Rootbeer Ratsnakes" het for cornsnake caramel and cornsnake amel (AKA "het Buttercream")

Creamsicles are a hybrid of Great Plains Ratsnake and Corn Snake - they're not pure corn - so you won't ever get pure corn babies from a known Creamsicle.


----------



## vickylolage

Mick's Cornsnake Progeny Predictor Program - Download Page

something I use to predict corns. It hasnt got every morph on but it gives you an idea


----------



## eeji

if you want a corn morph predictor with EVERYTHING then it can be downloaded from here: Ians Vivarium International Reptile Community Forum • View topic - Generic Genetic Wizard - Updated version - Exclusive to IV


----------



## vickylolage

eeji said:


> if you want a corn morph predictor with EVERYTHING then it can be downloaded from here: Ians Vivarium International Reptile Community Forum • View topic - Generic Genetic Wizard - Updated version - Exclusive to IV


 
ooo thats so much better than the one I was using! Thanks :2thumb:


----------



## cubeykc

this is a pic i found on google im sorry if its some ones of rfuk or any one you know im only using it 2 find out what it is 

what is this corn


----------



## intravenous

cubeykc said:


> this is a pic i found on google im sorry if its some ones of rfuk or any one you know im only using it 2 find out what it is
> 
> what is this corn


I believe it is an anery stripe and belongs to Motage_Morphs off of this forum


----------



## cubeykc

intravenous said:


> I believe it is an anery stripe and belongs to *Motage_Morphs* off of this forum


i just google corn snake morps and that came up and its so stunning i will take it off as soon as i get another reply


----------



## intravenous

Sorry, that should have said *Montage* Morphs 

Anerys tend to wash out a bit as they get older though, they don't keep the lovely sharp black colour.


----------



## Montage_Morphs

Yep my picture, and it's clearly copy righted...

And shes an anery striped motley.


----------



## cubeykc

Montage_Morphs said:


> Yep my picture, and it's clearly copy righted...
> 
> And shes an anery striped motley.


well iv now deleted it i did pm you last night saying that i put it on the forum and i was only using it to see what it was


----------



## cubeykc

what would i get with a male fire and a Anery Stripe female?


----------



## eeji

cubeykc said:


> what would i get with a male fire and a Anery Stripe female?


normals het amel anery bloodred and stripe


----------



## The Golden Boy

Ok - I know that this is entirely subjective so will phrase it this way - 

What would you put with a male creamsicle to create something "interesting"?:whistling2:


----------



## Ssthisto

Well, your only non-normal options are:

Anything carrying Amel will produce more Creamsicle ratsnakes.
Anything carrying Ultra will produce Ultracream ratsnakes.

Anything ELSE will produce Rootbeer rats het for whatever you breed to.


----------



## eeji

amel stripe to make creamsicle het stripes, or a butter to make creamsicle het buttercream


----------



## calsmum22

what would a male caramel het amel to a female amber make?


----------



## Blackecho

calsmum22 said:


> what would a male caramel het amel to a female amber make?


Caramels het Hypo and ph Amel.


----------



## Serious D

Hi ppl, If i breed a normal het snow, or amel to an amel motley, would i get amel motleys and amels.


----------



## Serious D

Sorry messed the last post up let me start again, If i breed a normal, normal het sow, or normal het amel to an amel motley what would i get?


----------



## eeji

Serious D said:


> Sorry messed the last post up let me start again, If i breed a normal, normal het sow, or normal het amel to an amel motley what would i get?


amel motley x

normal = 100% normal het amel and motley
normal het snow = 50% normal het amel ph anery, 50% amel ph anery
normal het amel = 50% normal het amel, 50% amel


----------



## Serious D

That was very helpful thank's. Can any one tell me some dominant corn morphs Please.


----------



## Ssthisto

There are no proven dominant corn morphs (other than "normal"). There is a possibility that the pattern morph "Tessera" is dominant or codominant, but until further breeding trials are done - and any shadow of a doubt about the heritage of the animals is removed - I would not like to say that it is a dominant corn snake morph.

Although Motley is dominant to Stripe, it is still recessive to the normal blotched pattern.


----------



## Dirtydozen

anyone got a pic of a blopal (fire lavender)
Also has anyone done granite lavenders, got any pics


----------



## eeji

Dirtydozen said:


> anyone got a pic of a blopal (fire lavender)


...or is it a bloodred opal? or an amel plasma? :?


----------



## calsmum22

whay would you get from a lavender het hypo,opal to a lavender het hypo.
thanks


----------



## Ssthisto

You'd have a 75% chance per egg of Lavender possible het Hypo and Amel and 25% chance of Hypo Lavender possible het Amel.


----------



## cubeykc

what would i get from a 

male fire to a 

Normal Stripe het Lavender ph Amel Anery Hypo
or
Normal het Butter Stripe 
or
Snow het Stripe ph Hypo Lavender


----------



## Ssthisto

cubeykc said:


> what would i get from a
> 
> male fire to a
> 
> Normal Stripe het Lavender ph Amel Anery Hypo
> or
> Normal het Butter Stripe
> or
> Snow het Stripe ph Hypo Lavender


Well, Fire is Amel Bloodred.

To a normal stripe het lavender, possible het amel, anery, hypo, you'd get:
Normals het for Stripe, Amel and Bloodred possible het lavender - and if the possible-het Amel proved out, you could get Amels het for Stripe and Bloodred, possible het Lavender.

To a normal het Butter Stripe you'd get:
Normal het Amel, Bloodred possible het Caramel and Stripe
Amel het Bloodred possible het Caramel and Stripe

To a Snow het stripe possible het hypo and lavender you'd get:
Amels het Bloodred, Anery and possible het Stripe

Basically, you'd get a load of "project hets" and "possible het keepers". 

For the largest number of visual results you'd need to match like to like - Fire to het Fire, or Normal het Butter Stripe to Normal het Butter Stripe.


----------



## cubeykc

Ssthisto said:


> Well, Fire is Amel Bloodred.
> 
> To a normal stripe het lavender, possible het amel, anery, hypo, you'd get:
> Normals het for Stripe, Amel and Bloodred possible het lavender - and if the possible-het Amel proved out, you could get Amels het for Stripe and Bloodred, possible het Lavender.
> 
> To a normal het Butter Stripe you'd get:
> Normal het Amel, Bloodred possible het Caramel and Stripe
> Amel het Bloodred possible het Caramel and Stripe
> 
> To a Snow het stripe possible het hypo and lavender you'd get:
> Amels het Bloodred, Anery and possible het Stripe
> 
> Basically, you'd get a load of "project hets" and "possible het keepers".
> 
> For the largest number of visual results you'd need to match like to like - Fire to het Fire, or Normal het Butter Stripe to Normal het Butter Stripe.


 
ok thanks


----------



## midori

What would a butter + lav look like? Has anyone done this? 

(hoping that's not a silly question.... :blush


----------



## Ssthisto

Do you mean "butter cross lavender" - which would be normal het for Lavender, caramel and Amel - or do you mean an animal which is Amel, Caramel and Lavender visually?

There's a suspicion that the "Peach Hypo" is a Caramel Lavender Hypo - so I suspect that you'd get a sort of pinky-peachy-yellowy Opal-looking snake.


----------



## midori

Ssthisto said:


> Do you mean "butter cross lavender" - which would be normal het for Lavender, caramel and Amel - or do you mean an animal which is Amel, Caramel and Lavender visually?
> 
> There's a suspicion that the "Peach Hypo" is a Caramel Lavender Hypo - so I suspect that you'd get a sort of pinky-peachy-yellowy Opal-looking snake.


 
Yes, sorry, I mean an animal which is amel, caramel and lavender visually. 

Off to google now,but are there ny pics of a 'peach hypo'? 

Thanks!


----------



## Ssthisto

I've only ever seen photos of them on the American cornsnake forum.


----------



## midori

Ssthisto said:


> I've only ever seen photos of them on the American cornsnake forum.


Thankyou. I think I am looking on there, but am useles at searching! Must try harder.... :blush:


----------



## midori

Thanks, have found now. It's very nice!


----------



## derek n

What would I get if these were bred,

Coral (male)
Anery (female)
Hypo bloodred motely (het hurricane I think) (female)

Thanks


----------



## Ssthisto

Right, first and foremost, it's not possible to be "het hurricane" - a motley either is one or it isn't. Are you sure you've got a hypo bloodred motley? There aren't many proven motley-bloods around, and you'd expect to have paid quite a bit for it.

Breeding a coral snow to an Anery will make all Anery het Hypo and Amel.
Breeding a coral snow to a hypo motley blood would make all Hypo het Anery, Amel, Motley and Blood.


----------



## cubeykc

im trying to figure out corn morphs say i wanted a opal corn would i have to pair a

Amel and Lavender

and dose it matter witch one is the male and female?

im getting confused


----------



## cubeykc

also iv just downloaded a corn morph calculator and is says if i put a amel with a anery i will get 100% het for snow so what will i get a snow? anery? amel?


----------



## repkid

cubeykc said:


> also iv just downloaded a corn morph calculator and is says if i put a amel with a anery i will get 100% het for snow so what will i get a snow? anery? amel?


 Normals het snow i think.


----------



## madaboutreptiles

cubeykc said:


> im trying to figure out corn morphs say i wanted a opal corn would i have to pair a
> 
> Amel and Lavender
> 
> and dose it matter witch one is the male and female?
> 
> im getting confused


If you want to end up with Opals you will need

Amel het lavender x lavender het amel

or

Amel het lavender x Amel het lavender

or 

Lavender het Amel x Lavender het Amel

it wont matter if you have amels or lavenders but they must both be het for each other

How does that sound?


----------



## madaboutreptiles

repkid said:


> Normals het snow i think.


 

Agreed..............:2thumb:


----------



## eeji

both parents need to carry amel AND lavender, whether its het or ****.


----------



## bladeblaster

repkid said:


> Normals het snow i think.


there is actually no het for snow as its a double trait, this can be confusing as people refer to het snow. What you would actually get are all normals 100% het for Amel and Anery.


----------



## kennedykrew

bladeblaster said:


> there is actually no het for snow as its a double trait, this can be confusing as people refer to het snow. What you would actually get are all normals 100% het for Amel and Anery.


Yes that is true .... a lot of people say het snow, or het butter to show what top end morphs can be produced. Sometimes its easier to do it that way .... especially with triple trait hets.


----------



## bladeblaster

not saying its wrong but it can be confusing when trying to learn about the genetics behind the morphs.


----------



## kennedykrew

bladeblaster said:


> not saying its wrong but it can be confusing when trying to learn about the genetics behind the morphs.


Yeah i know what you mean..... i couldnt understand when someone said , het amel lavender, when i thought was het opal, and het butter, when i thought het amel caramel! lol


----------



## VoodooWitchDoctor

How would you get a pure black Corn?mg:

Yes!

That all elusive pure black corn snake!

A True 100% Melanistic Elaphe guttata!

I hear the closes anyone has come to the holy grail, dubbed by Don Soderberg, a Chocolate Emory.

There's one in Corn Snakes, The Comprehensive Guide, by Kathy & Bill Love.

Page 167: victory:


----------



## eeji

VoodooWitchDoctor said:


> How would you get a pure black Corn?mg:
> 
> Yes!
> 
> That all elusive pure black corn snake!
> 
> A True 100% Melanistic Elaphe guttata!
> 
> I hear the closes anyone has come to the holy grail, dubbed by Don Soderberg, a Chocolate Emory.
> 
> There's one in Corn Snakes, The Comprehensive Guide, by Kathy & Bill Love.
> 
> Page 167: victory:


until a hypermelanistic gene is found in corns, you can't


----------



## VoodooWitchDoctor

eeji said:


> until a hypermelanistic gene is found in corns, you can't



Clever cloggs!:thumb:


----------



## eeji

....or you could paint one!  :2thumb:


----------



## Sutherland08

What would I get from the following pairings??

Bloodred-hypo poss het for lavender
Bloodred-snow poss hets

I've heard that you can achieve avalaches from the bottom pair but not really sure. What else would be good to put with the bloodred?


----------



## Skyespirit86

Sutherland08 said:


> What would I get from the following pairings??
> 
> Bloodred-hypo poss het for lavender
> Bloodred-snow poss hets
> 
> I've heard that you can achieve avalaches from the bottom pair but not really sure. What else would be good to put with the bloodred?


Unless the snake you are breeding a bloodred to is bloodred itself, or het for bloodred, then you won't get bloodred babies. 

From the first pairing you'll get normals het for hypo and poss het lav, and with the second pairing you'll get normals het amel, anery (snow) and whatever other poss hets are also in there. You could only make a snow bloodred (avalanche) if you bred one of the babies you make from that second pairing to one of it's clutchmates, however you'd be extremely lucky if you made a triple combo just from hets. It helps if one or both of the parents are **** for at least 1 or 2 of the traits. Eg if you had a snow het bloodred and mated it to a anery bloodred het amel....there are various other possible snakes you could use.


----------



## KimmyD

What will I get from snow x amel?
Thanks in advance!


----------



## bladeblaster

assuming your amel has no hidden hets then you will get all amels 100% het anery (or het snow some would say)

if you get any snows in the litter then your amel would be het anery.


----------



## KimmyD

Thankyou 
Hopefully Poppy brings me some nice suprises


----------



## storm22

ok i've got an amel (apparently het reverse okotee) and a very pink ghost stripe (unknown for hets) any ideas on what this pair will produce when it comes to it?

thanks


----------



## Ssthisto

There's no such thing as "het reverse okeetee" - an Amel either IS a Reverse Okeetee (wide white saddle borders, intense orange colouring) or it isn't.

What you can expect to get from an Amel crossed to a Ghost Stripe is:

Normals het for Amel, Anery, Hypo and Stripe (AKA "het Coral Snow Stripe")

You might get Amels (proving your ghost stripe is het amel) or Anerys (proving your amel is het Anery) - but that's not guaranteed.


----------



## storm22

it'll just be amel then, i was told that at the shop when i got him not really up on the morphs and genetics yet, just trying to learn. thanks ssthisto for your reply though. so understanding your post hatchlings are going to be traditional normal corn colours with hets then? unless the snakes have the hets you mention?


----------



## Ssthisto

That's right, they'll be standard corn colours (Orange-tan-grey with black saddle borders and reddish-to-brown saddles) with hets (although you've got a GREAT pair for testing whether they carry hets - the four genes they've got between 'em are the most likely ones to be carried as invisible hets!)

A lot of shops aren't as "up" on the genetics as they might be - I'm betting your Amel probably had one Reverse Okeetee parent, so the animal was described as being "het" because the breeder didn't understand it doesn't work that way either


----------



## storm22

again thanks for your speedy reply Ssthisto but now i'm slightly confused,

although you've got a GREAT pair for testing whether they carry hets - the four genes they've got between 'em are the most likely ones to be carried as invisible hets!)

A lot of shops aren't as "up" on the genetics as they might be - I'm betting your Amel probably had one Reverse Okeetee parent, so the animal was described as being "het" because the breeder didn't understand it doesn't work that way either  

i'm going to go on the search button to understand hets myself now but could you explain to me how they're good for testing? as if the young will be 'normals' how will we know

regards
confussled noob lol


----------



## Ssthisto

Basically, the most common genes for ANY corn snake with "unknown hets" to potentially be carrying are:

Amel
Anery
Hypo
Motley OR Stripe

The pair you have will very neatly "test" each other for those most common hets, because the amel is visually one, and the ghost stripe is the other three 

You have a good chance, if one of them invisibly carries a het for a trait the other one is, you'll get visual babies of that morph.


----------



## storm22

right ok last question before i wind you up toooo much, you said in your first post that they would be normals het for xxx so i thought they would come out as your normal colour corns, now as you say this pair will 'test each other out' does this mean we could actually get some visual morphs? 
i am currently using the search function but as yet not gotten too far with it i do really appreciate the help here as moving from fish and horses into the snake game its a whole new world here


----------



## bladeblaster

from reading the above I think what ssthisto is saying is that if you breed your amel with your ghost stripe you can prove any 'hidden' hets in your amel by the following results:-

if you get any anerys your amel is het anery
if you get any hypos you amel is het hypo
if you get any stripes you amel is het stripe
if you get any motleys you amel is het motley
if you get all normals you amel is 'almost' certainly not carrying any hets.

I say 'almost' because you could be very unlucky and just 'miss' the odds of the het carrying through.


----------



## storm22

ah right i think i am starting to see the light ( i hope) if i'm thinking right then any morphs these rely heavily on any hets that the anery is carrying?

thanks bladeblaster


----------



## bladeblaster

yes if the amel is carrying no hets then as Ssthisto says you will only get normals, with lots of hets.

no problem :2thumb:


----------



## storm22

ok brilliant well thats good to know. so if i was to find a different male with known hets then there would be different morphs within the group. got it  not that i am going to do that of course, our anery is our first corn and thought we'd find him a nice lady, was hoping that because she was a stripe she would carry other things but now not so sure lol oh this really is a minefield! thanks both for the information i've been given it really is helping me


----------



## KimmyD

Well i've found Dopey's second lady friend!
What could I possibly produce with an Okeetee x Snow?
Not known if either have any Hets.
TIA.


----------



## Blackecho

Het Snows.


----------



## bladeblaster

100% het anery and amel (otherwise known as het snow)


----------



## vetdebbie

I can't find much info about the genetics of the patternless morph - is it a simple recessive?? We've just bought a patternless anery


----------



## Ssthisto

"Patternless" is a variation of Stripe, which is recessive.

The "Patternless" stripes over here may not be related to the reproducible Patternless mutation that's in the 'States.


----------



## vetdebbie

Aha. that explains the little stripes she has just behind her head. Thanks for that.


----------



## cjsnakes

what would i get if/ when i breed my normal carolina and creamsickle?


----------



## cjsnakes

cjsnakes said:


> what would i get if/ when i breed my normal carolina and creamsickle?


can u PM me plz really wanna know an even beter if you have pics of the out come:2thumb:


----------



## Ssthisto

You will get Rootbeer ratsnakes het for Amel (AKA "Het creamsicle").

Because a creamsicle is a hybrid, any of its babies will also be hybrids.


----------



## amandy

what makes a snopal motley?


----------



## eeji

amandy said:


> what makes a snopal motley?


amel + anery + lavender + motley :2thumb:


----------



## Ssthisto

The ingredients for Glacier Motley (I hate "snopal" !) are:

2 copies of Amel (one from each parent)
2 copies of Anery (one from each parent)
2 copies of Lavender (one from each parent)
and EITHER
2 copies of Motley (one from each parent)
OR
1 copy of Motley and one copy of Stripe (One parent passed on motley, the other passed on stripe, and because motley is dominant to stripe, the babies will look motley)


----------



## amandy

what if you start with a amel motley het for snopal? glacier?


----------



## Ssthisto

If you have an Amel Motley het for Anery and Lavender, your best choice to breed Glaciers will be an Anery-Lavender het Motley and Amel... or better yet an Anery-Lavender motley het Amel or a Glacier het Motley.

That said, if you've got an Amel Motley het Anery Lavender, you could also get Glacier Motleys by breeding to an Anery het Amel, Lavender, Stripe; a Lavender het Amel, Motley-or-Stripe and Anery.... there's lots of ways, but you need to make sure BOTH parents are at least het for all four ingredients.


----------



## amandy

Thank you understood the second answer will find out for sure, cheers Mandy


----------



## blaze777

I have a ghost motley male and a bloodred motley female. Would all babies be normal motley?


----------



## Ssthisto

Yes, they'd be Motley het for Anery and Hypo (from the ghost) and Bloodred (from the blood motley) ... but how sure are you that your Blood Motley is actually a blood motley?


----------



## blaze777

She has the bloodred speckles on her belly. There is a picture of her 
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snake-pictures/243172-my-corns-2.html


----------



## Ssthisto

Her flank pattern shows no indication she's homozygous bloodred for sure (no diffusion) - motleys and stripes can also get speckled bellies. I wouldn't assume she'll produce het Bloodreds until she's bred to a homozygous blood that does not show the motley or stripe pattern and produces ALL bloodred offspring. It can be quite difficult to tell a motley from a motley het blood from a bloodred motley - and the latter are comparatively rare, too.


----------



## kerryrep22

oooohhhhhh just found this section, great! just wondered what will be the best results i mite get from any of these combinations of my corns,

Males,

Black anery
Normal amely
Blood-red

Female - ghost anery corn with het lavender

also can i ask what does diffused mean in genetic terms?

and also saw the post about what you mite be bringing to the barking show, and i just wondered what you would recommend to buy from what ure bringing, to go with the morphs i already have to make some great babies, cheers


----------



## Redhill Reptiles

what about a reverse okeetee to a normal corn ( i dont know if they are het for anything)


----------



## bladeblaster

all normals 100% het amel. A reverse Oketee is a selectively bred amel.


----------



## Ssthisto

kerryrep22 said:


> Males,
> 
> Black anery
> Normal amely
> Blood-red
> 
> Female - ghost anery corn with het lavender


Well, of these, the only one that guarantees you'll get visual morphs is the Anery male to the Ghost female (all ghosts are anery, by the way - they're hypo anery). 

That would get you all Anery het Hypo possible het Lavender.

Is the second male an Amel (red eyes, no black anywhere) or a normal (black pupils) het for Amel? 

Breeding a ghost het lavender to a bloodred would get you all Normal het Anery, Hypo and Diffused, possible het Lavender.



> also can i ask what does diffused mean in genetic terms?


All Bloodreds are homozygous Diffused (carrying the diffusion pattern trait) but not all homozygous diffused animals are selectively bred to be Bloodreds. Most folk do use the two terms interchangeably - including me - although I do accept that the BEST bloodreds are going to be the ones selectively bred for high diffusion and deep rich red colouring.


----------



## Catherine896

Any help on these please?

Ultramel x Goldust motley

Phantom x Pewter

Phantom x Ghost 

Also what would offspring of these produce if put together?

Thanks alot


----------



## Skyespirit86

Catherine896 said:


> Any help on these please?
> 
> Ultramel x Goldust motley
> 
> Phantom x Pewter
> 
> Phantom x Ghost
> 
> Also what would offspring of these produce if put together?
> 
> Thanks alot


 
First pairing would give you ultramels het caramel and motley.
Second pairing would give you charcoals het hypo and bloodred. 
Third one would give you hypos het for anery a and charcoal.

F2s would be:

1.) Ultramels, golddust and goldust motley.
2.) Charcoals, phantoms, pewters, and hypo pewter. 
3.) Hypos, ghosts, phantoms, and hypo anerycharcoal.

With all of the ove F2s, which ever traits they aren't showing they'll still be possible het for.


----------



## Catherine896

Thanks alot


----------



## Ssthisto

Skyespirit86 said:


> First pairing would give you ultramels het caramel and motley.
> 
> F2s would be:
> 
> 1.) Ultramels, golddust and goldust motley.


Actually, the first generation cross of a Golddust Motley to an Ultramel would produce:

Amels het Caramel and Motley (25% chance per egg)
Ultramel het Caramel and Motley (50% chance per egg)
Ultra het Caramel and Motley (25% chance per egg)

So depending on the F2 you chose (I'd pick an Ultra het Caramel Motley personally and breed it to a Butter Motley if Golddust Motley was your goal - you'll get 100% ultramel-based animals, with 50% chance of getting Caramel and 50% chance of getting motley in any given animal).

Oh yeah - Hypo Anery/Charcoal is also called Platinum - and it's BEAUTIFUL.


----------



## Catherine896

Yeah we are trying to head for platinum offspring! They are stunning!

Thanks alot


----------



## Catherine896

A couple more questons....

If I was to put a Bloodred to a Blizzard, then bred back the offspring would that produce a Whiteout?

Also if I was to put a Bloodred to a Butter then bred the offspring back would I produce sulfers?

Probably totally wrong lol :blush:

Thanks.


----------



## Skyespirit86

Ssthisto said:


> Actually, the first generation cross of a Golddust Motley to an Ultramel would produce:
> 
> Amels het Caramel and Motley (25% chance per egg)
> Ultramel het Caramel and Motley (50% chance per egg)
> Ultra het Caramel and Motley (25% chance per egg)
> 
> So depending on the F2 you chose (I'd pick an Ultra het Caramel Motley personally and breed it to a Butter Motley if Golddust Motley was your goal - you'll get 100% ultramel-based animals, with 50% chance of getting Caramel and 50% chance of getting motley in any given animal).
> 
> Oh yeah - Hypo Anery/Charcoal is also called Platinum - and it's BEAUTIFUL.


I know all this, but you should have seen me trying to figure out when tired. My brain was just in knots, but i'd started so had to finish. 
I know that ultramel is aaau, not homozygous both, because the two are allelic to each other, and I myself _wanted_ a platinum...but there we go. It took me 15 minutes to remember that phantom is hypo charcoal, I was thinking it was hypolav! Doh.


----------



## Ssthisto

Catherine896 said:


> If I was to put a Bloodred to a Blizzard, then bred back the offspring would that produce a Whiteout?
> 
> Also if I was to put a Bloodred to a Butter then bred the offspring back would I produce sulfers?


Yes, in both cases you'd have a 1-in-64 chance per egg to produce the triple homozygous. If you wanted better chances, putting a Pewter to a Blizzard (for charcoal het Bloodred Amel) or a Fire to a Butter (for Amel het Caramel Blood) would give 1-in-16 odds per egg of getting your triple morph - significantly better odds!



Skyespirit86 said:


> I know that ultramel is aaau, not homozygous both


Personally I would not express Ultramel as *aauu *because that implies it IS homozygous Amel* aa* and homozygous Ultra *uu*. I'd express it as a clear single pair - *a/au* - if I wasn't able to do superscripts to make the u display correctly. Amel doesn't need the double* a* because it's a single half of the gene pair; ultra ideally has the superscripted *a* indicating it's Amel-locus allele variant ultra.


----------



## Catherine896

Some more.....

If I was to use the offspring of a Ghost x Snow pairing could it produce a Coral Snow?

This maybe completely wrong but if I was to pair a Ghost x Blizzard then bred back offspring would I have any chance to produce Powders?

I will get my head around it eventually lol.

Thanks alot.


----------



## kerryrep22

if i breed a bloodred male with a lavender female, is is true that you get 100% het for plasma, which you can then breed together and get some pure plasmas? cheers


----------



## Ssthisto

Yes, if you breed a Bloodred to a Lavender, the offspring will all be het Lavender Bloodred, and if you bred them together you'd have a 1-in-16 chance per egg of getting a Lavender Blood out.


----------



## kerryrep22

cool cos i already have a blood red male, so i was finking about getting a lavender female to breed with him to make those, and also i have the option of breeding this same lavender in a couple of years time with one of my babies from this year who is going to have het for lavender in them so i get the chance of some pure lavenders too. thank you. genetics is pretty fascinating when you get into it, so many possibilities, amazing!!


----------



## adsclarke

Hi Guys,

This one is hurting my head a little.

Can anyone confirm or correct my thinking...

If I have a corn billed as a Phantom het Platinum Bloodred

Phantom is a Hypo Charcoal.
Platinum is Hypo Charcoal Anery.
Granite is Diffused Anery.

Does this mean the snake is
Hypo Charcoal het Anery, Bloodred
or combined to be
Phantom het Granite?

Thanks


----------



## Skyespirit86

Ssthisto said:


> Yes, in both cases you'd have a 1-in-64 chance per egg to produce the triple homozygous. If you wanted better chances, putting a Pewter to a Blizzard (for charcoal het Bloodred Amel) or a Fire to a Butter (for Amel het Caramel Blood) would give 1-in-16 odds per egg of getting your triple morph - significantly better odds!
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I would not express Ultramel as *aauu *because that implies it IS homozygous Amel* aa* and homozygous Ultra *uu*. I'd express it as a clear single pair - *a/au* - if I wasn't able to do superscripts to make the u display correctly. Amel doesn't need the double* a* because it's a single half of the gene pair; ultra ideally has the superscripted *a* indicating it's Amel-locus allele variant ultra.


I didn't put aa/uu, i put aa/au. Which according to what I have learnt from Charles Pritzel's book etc is right- above you state that it should be the 'a' in superscript which isn't right, but maybe you made a mistake. The first letter/s of the symbol indicates the locus. then the one in superscript indicates the gene that is residing there whether it be wildtype, ultra or amel, therefore the symbol for ultra starts with an a, and has a 'u' in superscript. I know that if it were possible to do a homozygous ultra _and_ a homozygous amel that it would have to look aaaa/auau. At the end of the day you have to have learnt about the symbols in order to understand them however they have been written, so if someone hasn't ever learnt about them and they mistake aaau as being homozygous then that's because of their lack of knowledge, not my way of putting it . I also think writing it like I did is the original and_ full_ way of writing it, which you could argue is clearer to understand than something someone has shortened.


----------



## Ssthisto

Skyespirit86 said:


> I didn't put aa/uu, i put aa/au. Which according to what I have learnt from Charles Pritzel's book etc is right- above you state that it should be the 'a' in superscript which isn't right, but maybe you made a mistake. The first letter/s of the symbol indicates the locus. then the one in superscript indicates the gene that is residing there whether it be wildtype, ultra or amel, therefore the symbol for ultra starts with an a, and has a 'u' in superscript. I know that if it were possible to do a homozygous ultra _and_ a homozygous amel that it would have to look aaaa/auau. At the end of the day you have to have learnt about the symbols in order to understand them however they have been written, so if someone hasn't ever learnt about them and they mistake aaau as being homozygous then that's because of their lack of knowledge, not my way of putting it . I also think writing it like I did is the original and_ full_ way of writing it, which you could argue is clearer to understand than something someone has shortened.


My apologies, you're absolutely right - at godawful-o-clock, aauu looks very similar to aaau. 

However, when I said "the superscripted a" I meant "the a with the superscript u attached" rather than "the a that is a superscript". That wasn't amazingly clearly written on my behalf!


----------



## bloodcorn

Can anyone help I have a opal cubed het blood stripe and a lavender het amel blood stripe, now I know what offspring they will produce but am a little unsure about the stripe/cube, will I produce any cubed?


----------



## Ssthisto

Cubed appears to be a variety of stripe - but I'm not sure they've worked out whether it's selectively bred or whether it's a third allele on the Motley locus. You might get cubes or you might not.


----------



## bloodcorn

That's what I thought, thanks anyway


----------



## oakelm

Another corn morph one for you all

Amel motley het glacier(aka snopal) x snow stripe

Also what would be a good stripe wise to cross with a snow stripe if anything?

Thanks in advance


----------



## Ssthisto

You'll get: 
50% chance of Amel motley het stripe, anery, possible lavender 
50% chance of Snow motley het stripe, possible lavender

I think a bloodred stripe or a hypo/ghost stripe would make a good cross to a Snow stripe


----------



## oakelm

Ssthisto said:


> You'll get:
> 50% chance of Amel motley het stripe, anery, possible lavender
> 50% chance of Snow motley het stripe, possible lavender
> 
> I think a bloodred stripe or a hypo/ghost stripe would make a good cross to a Snow stripe


Cheers ssthisto, i had not thought about a bloodred stripe. That ones going on my wanted list.


----------



## oakelm

Me again. I have been practising my corn genetics to the extreme. Looking into quad traits so heres my thinking, questions in there too. If I am wrong at any stage correct me

Butter (Amel, Caramel) x Glacier (Amel, Anery, Lavendar)
Will result in 
Amel het Anery, Caramel, Lavendar (My 4 traits)

Cross the offspring together you get visual odds per egg of, all but the quad trait will be 66% poss het the trait/traits missing. In brackets is components of the morph.
27/64 Amel
9/64 Snow (Amel, Anery)
9/64 Butter (Amel, Caramel)
9/64 Opal (Amel, Lavender)
3/64 Glacier (Amel, Anery, Lavendar)
3/64 Xanthic Snow I think ????(Amel, Anery, Caramel)
3/64 What is this morph called ????(Amel, Caramel, Lavender)
1/64 And the long shot, has this quad trait been made yet???? (Amel, Anery, Caramel, Lavendar)

Is that right? And can you fill in the morph blanks for me? Not a breeding I think I will ever do as I think you would end up with a lot of pinky/white snakes but curious.

As you can tell from the time of day I cant sleep so sat thinking about random things as there is nothing good on telly.


----------



## Ssthisto

I don't believe there's a name for an (Opal Caramel /Butter Lavender?) yet - or indeed for an (Opal Xanthic / Snow Peach / Butter Moonstone) at this point. Until someone's seen what adult animals that are DEFINITELY homozygous for those traits look like, I don't think they'll get names.


----------



## ghostcornsnake

could anyone tell me what i would get if i crossed a ghost corn with a snowcorn.


----------



## adsclarke

Snow x Ghost

would give you:

All Anery het amel, hypo

assuming there are no hidden hets.


----------



## ReptileGuy2008

hi, what would i get with a male amel no known het and a female snow het stripes.


----------



## Ssthisto

You'd get Amels het Anery and possibly het Stripe.


----------



## ReptileGuy2008

what about a male Ghost Het. Stripe and a female snow het stripe


----------



## Ssthisto

You've got a 75% chance per egg of Anery het Amel, Hypo and possibly stripe
and a 25% chance per egg of Anery Stripe het Amel Hypo.


----------



## Anna89

Hi,

I'm compleatly new to snakes - but we got an amel last week and are now looking at getting another! (sooo in love with a snakey!!) Soooo i like the look of stripe creamsicle's, stripe amel's and butters - what would these produce with my amel? Thanks - like I said, totally new and just speculating really!! Thanks again!

Anna.


----------



## Ssthisto

If your Amel isn't het for anything else:

Creamsicle Striped Ratsnake X Amel = Creamsicles het Stripe. Creamsicles are not actually 100% corn snake (they have known Great Plains Ratsnake blood, which is what MAKES them a Creamsicle), and any offspring you breed will be hybrids as well.

Amel Stripe X Amel = Amels het Stripe

Butter X Amel = Amels het Caramel


----------



## ReptileGuy2008

hi, what would be the best morph to breed with a male amel


----------



## Ssthisto

Without knowing whether the Amel has any hets, the only way you'll get anything that isn't "normal/wildtype" is by breeding to an Amel or Amel carrier. 

That could mean breeding to, say, a Butter Motley (Amel + Caramel + Motley) - you'd get all Amels het Caramel Motley.


----------



## katiec

What would be good to put with a lavender poss hypo or het hypo poss het motley?


----------



## Ssthisto

I would put a Hypo het Lavender to the Lavender poss. het Hypo - if the Lavender IS het hypo, you'd get normals het hypo lavender, Hypos het lavender, Lavenders het hypo and Hypo Lavenders.

To a normal het hypo, poss het motley I would put a Ghost Motley - that'd produce Normals het Hypo, Anery, Motley and Hypos het Anery Motley; if the normal's het Motley proved out you could also get Normal Motleys het Hypo, Anery and Hypo Motleys het Anery.


----------



## Anna89

Hi,

Thank you!! Got another one for you - a snow or a snoe stripe to an amel? Cheers!

Anna.


----------



## Catherine896

Im still learning myself so sorry if Im wrong!

Amel X Snow = Amels het Anery

Amel X Snow Stripe = Amels het Anery + Stripe


----------



## Anna89

Hi,

Thanks! err... where did the anery's come from though? Sorry - i dont get snake genetics!

Anna.


----------



## Ssthisto

Snow is homozygous Amel, homozygous Anery - hence, all of its babies HAVE to be at least het Anery.


----------



## Anna89

right! thanks!

Anna.


----------



## Anna89

Hi again!!

Bought a stunning amel today so what would amel x amel make?? may be obvious, amels but i don't know! Cheers!!

Anna.


----------



## Ssthisto

100% Amel.

If you get anything else - like a Snow (most likely) - it proves that both parents were het for something you didn't know about until the hatchlings arrived!


----------



## Anna89

Now thats not complicated!!! I can cope with that!! Thanks!

Anna.


----------



## bladeblaster

is breeding amel to amel likely to produce defects in the offspring as breeding albino to albino would in boas (malformed eyes)? Or are the genetics stronger/more diverse in corns?


----------



## Ssthisto

bladeblaster said:


> is breeding amel to amel likely to produce defects in the offspring as breeding albino to albino would in boas (malformed eyes)? Or are the genetics stronger/more diverse in corns?


Generally speaking, Amel to Amel crossings in corns don't have nearly the same "failure rate" as boa albinos. It's quite possible that the original albino boas actually have a different pigmentation defect that ALSO breaks something in the eye production - or that the first albino boa also happened to have a nasty recessive eyelessness trait too that's just gotten passed along with the albino trait.


----------



## bladeblaster

yes that is very true.


----------



## Pauline

bladeblaster said:


> is breeding amel to amel likely to produce defects in the offspring as breeding albino to albino would in boas (malformed eyes)? Or are the genetics stronger/more diverse in corns?


 
I believe problems can arise with snow x snow corns though.


----------



## Anna89

Hi,

Thank you for pointing this out. I'll certainly be doing some research into that! 

Anna.


----------



## bladeblaster

Pauline said:


> I believe problems can arise with snow x snow corns though.


really thats interesting, pressumably the anery x amel combo is interacting and causing other mutations then?


----------



## eeji

Pauline said:


> I believe problems can arise with snow x snow corns though.


what sort of problems? I've not heard of this before


----------



## cazzahaz

As i do not have two sunglows and they seem to be kinda hard to find, what would be best to breed with to get baby sunglows, i have a female sunglow.


----------



## Ssthisto

I would get the best Amel Motley or Amel Stripe with the darkest, richest background colour you can find - many of these mature into sunglow-looking corns.


----------



## Lostcorn

cazzahaz said:


> As i do not have two sunglows and they seem to be kinda hard to find, what would be best to breed with to get baby sunglows, i have a female sunglow.


Ooh!

I have a male sunglow.



Any pics of yours?

John


----------



## Anna89

Hi,

I've been trying to get a grip with this whole genetics caboodle (without much luck!)!!! Very confusing! So far i've got that if you breed a normal x normal you get normals! But if you breed a single trait morph ( example -amel) to another single trait (example-anery(A)) I get a snow???? 

What I want to know is do I get any amels or anerys aswell out of this hypothetical breeding pair. And if yes what percentage and how do you work this out? AND how on earth do you work out the out-come of corns with hets??? Thanks!

Anna.


----------



## Ssthisto

Actually, if you breed an Amel to an Anery (and neither of them carries the other trait) ... you ALSO get normals - which DO carry both of the ingredients required to make snows in the second generation.

With recessive traits (like the vast majority of cornsnake genes) you have to breed like to like - either a visual to visual, visual to het, or het to het - in order to get any visual results.

For example:

If you breed an Amel to a normal, all of the offspring will be Normal het Amel.
If you breed an Amel to an Amel, all of the offspring will be Amel.
Breed a Normal het Amel to an Amel, and you would expect some normal het amels and some Amels.
And breed Normal het Amel to Normal het Amel and you get normals which MIGHT carry amel (but might not!) and some Amels too.
Breed


----------



## Anna89

Thank you again! So I would get normals, amels, anerys and snows? 
I understand your example bit now!

Just the recessive part now. I assume that if it's a single trait morph and it has a few hets (example) there would be some offspring with the parents single trait and a certain percentage of each het they carry with some offspring just het? (hope that made sense!)
Sorry I like to get things right - need to pick your brain to do so! Hope you don't mind!

Anna.


----------



## Ssthisto

Anna89 said:


> Thank you again! So I would get normals, amels, anerys and snows?


ONLY if BOTH parents carried BOTH ingredients.

Cross an Amel to an Anery and unless they BOTH carry at least one copy of the opposite trait, you will not get anything BUT normals.

Conversely, cross one Normal het Amel and Anery (normal carrying one copy of each trait) to another one, and you can get Amels, Anerys, Normals and Snows.



> Just the recessive part now. I assume that if it's a single trait morph and it has a few hets (example) there would be some offspring with the parents single trait and a certain percentage of each het they carry with some offspring just het? (hope that made sense!)


Again, yes, IF both parents have matching hets.

Say you've got a Snow het Stripe/Lavender and a Stripe het Snow. 

Crossing these two means you know ALL of the offspring will be at least het for Amel and Anery (from the Snow het Stripe parent) and het for Stripe (from the Stripe het Snow parent). You can also get Amels, Amel Stripes, Anery, Anery Stripe, and Snow and Snow Stripe - because both parents have the right matching ingredients to produce the babies.

However, that pair will never produce a Lavender, because one parent doesn't have the right ingredient to produce visual lavender babies.


----------



## crocsrule

what would you get if you breed a ghost corn to a snow corn


----------



## Ssthisto

Anery corns het for Hypo (from the ghost) and Amel (from the snow).


----------



## gardy

hi there i have got a amelanistic corn male and a female snow corn and i am hoping to breed them in the future and what would i expect if they mated
thank you


----------



## Ssthisto

All Amels het for Anery.


----------



## Grond

Think one of the mods should change the name of this thread to 'Ssthito's Genetics Clinic':lol2:
You always get there at light speed with exactly the right answer and you must deserve some recognition!:no1:


----------



## alexpata

Hi there, I have what seems to be a 'normal' carolina that's parents were a Fluorescent Orange and a Motley Ghost. If my understanding of the genes in those two morphs are correct then my normal should be het for amel, anery, hypo and motley? Is that right?


----------



## Ssthisto

That's exactly right. My personal choice of a partner for him would be a Coral Snow Motley


----------



## alexpata

Ok so this is my first attempt at some proper genetics, dont laugh if its completely wrong, but if I bred mine with a Coral Snow Motley then the outcome percentages would be as follows;

an = anery am = amel m = motley hy = hypo 

6.25% = normal het an,am,m
6.25% = normal het an,am,hy
6.25% = normal motley het an,am,hy
6.25% = normal motley het an,am
6.25% = amel het an,m,hy
6.25% = amel het an,m
6.25% = amel motley het an,hy
6.25% = amel motley het an
6.25% = anery het am,m
6.25% = anery het am,m,hy
6.25% = anery motley het am
6.25% = anery motley het am,hy
6.25% = coral snow 
6.25% = coral snow het m,hy
6.25% = coral snow motley
6.25% = coral snow motley het hy

If thats right then your suggestion gives a very nice diversity indeed :2thumb:


----------



## Ssthisto

Whoops, "Coral Snow" is hypo snow 

Basically, you have a 50% chance per egg of producing any single morph, a 25% chance per egg of producing any two-gene combination morph, a 12.5% chance per egg of producing any three-gene combination morph and a 6.25% chance per egg of producing the four-gene combination Coral Snow Motley.


----------



## alexpata

Ahh ok, I read that coral snows were just selectively bread snows, I wasn't aware that they are hypo snows. Cool thanks for your help and the great suggestion, think I may start looking for a coral snow motley, would you recommend anywhere in particular? (In the UK)


----------



## Ssthisto

You could try Lexcorn - I know she works with coral snows, although I don't know if she does them in Motley.


----------



## sleepylizard

I have too many males and not enough females. Will possibly need to thin out my males so please help.

Amel x snow
Amel x butter
Amel x caramel
Amel x hypo
Amel x anery
Amel x normal

Amel motley x the above boys

and finally

Miami x above boys.

ANy suggestions on who i should thin out and what girlies to replace with.

Thank you.


----------



## eeji

alexpata said:


> Ahh ok, I read that coral snows were just selectively bread snows, I wasn't aware that they are hypo snows. Cool thanks for your help and the great suggestion, think I may start looking for a coral snow motley, would you recommend anywhere in particular? (In the UK)


I will have het coral poss het motleys in a few months 



sleepylizard said:


> I have too many males and not enough females. Will possibly need to thin out my males so please help.
> 
> Amel x snow = 100% Amel het anery
> Amel x butter = 100% Amel het caramel
> Amel x caramel = 100% Normal het amel and caramel
> Amel x hypo = 100% Nnormal het amel and hypo
> Amel x anery = 100% Normal het amel and anery
> Amel x normal = 100% Normal het amel
> 
> Amel motley x the above boys = the same results, but they will all be also het motley
> 
> and finally
> 
> Miami x above boys. = 100% Normal, het for whatever morph the boy is.
> 
> ANy suggestions on who i should thin out and what girlies to replace with.
> 
> Thank you.


As for suggestions, it all depends what you like. Maybe an ultramel anery for the snow, or a Golddust for your butter.
Maybe introduce a pattern into the mix with stripe, motley or diffused.


----------



## Danny_mcr

starting to understand this a bit better now but what would i get.

butter motley x amel 
butter motley x snow
lavender x snow 
lavender x bloodred stripe
bloodred stripe x amel
lavender x amel 
butter motley x butter het motley 

have a rough idea what i woul get from these in future breeding plans but wanted to make sure. also thinking of adding some anery'ds and caramels believe with the above list aswell i could aim for pewters and possibly blizzards: victory:


----------



## Ssthisto

Butter Motley X Amel:
100% Amel het Caramel, Motley (AKA "Amel het Butter Motley")

Butter Motley X Snow:
100% Amel het Caramel, Anery, Motley (AKA "Amel het xanthic snow")

Lavender X Snow:
100% Normal het Lavender, Amel, Anery (AKA "het glacier" or "het snopal", pick your preferred name for a Lavender Snow)

Lavender X Bloodred Stripe:
100% Normal het Lavender, Bloodred/diffuse, Stripe (AKA "Het lavender blood stripe" or "het plasma stripe", pick your preferred name for lavender bloodred)

Bloodred Stripe X Amel:
100% normal het Bloodred/diffuse, Stripe, Amel (AKA "het fire stripe")

Lavender X Amel:
100% normal het Lavender, Amel (AKA "het opal")

Butter Motley X Butter het motley:
50% chance per egg of Butter het Motley
50% chance per egg of Butter Motley

To get pewters or blizzards you'd need to add in Charcoal (AKA "anery B") and wouldn't see any until the second generation.


----------



## alinoee

hi all. trying to get a grip on genetics. :bash:
from normal and anerythristic will i get normal 100% het anerythristic?
thanks


----------



## Ssthisto

Yes, that's what you'd expect to get.


----------



## alinoee

cheers. i have one question. how do you generally determine what genes/trait is dominant, recessive or co dominant?


----------



## Danny_mcr

cheers for that m8 with the list i provided what would be the best target morphs in your opinion? or any other additions to my collection that would interesting to achieve taget morphs: victory:


----------



## Ssthisto

alinoee said:


> cheers. i have one question. how do you generally determine what genes/trait is dominant, recessive or co dominant?


Determining how a gene reacts to other genes in its locus is done by breeding trials. Basically, you get a weird one. Breed it to a snake of the opposite sex.

If you get non-normal offspring in the FIRST generation, you know that the trait is either dominant or codominant. Which it is will be determined by the second generation of breeding, but if you got ALL non-normals that don't look like their mutant parent, you're probably dealing with codominance and your original animal is a homozygous "super" form. If the non-normals look like their parent, the trait can be assumed to be dominant until and unless you've bred one back to the original parent and produced a different-looking homozygous animal.

if you don't get any non-normal offspring, breed a pair of the offspring together. You'd expect to get a roughly 25% ratio of weird-looking ones if the trait is recessive (you might have to try several breeding seasons in a row). If you don't get any non-normal offspring, and you've also tried breeding back to the original odd-looking parent, it's probably not a simple genetic trait and might well be incubation-related or just an odd quirk.



Danny_mcr said:


> cheers for that m8 with the list i provided what would be the best target morphs in your opinion? or any other additions to my collection that would interesting to achieve taget morphs: victory:


My personal choices would be to produce the butter motleys; I'd add a Caramel stripe or something similar to that group, too...

I'd also aim to put a male bloodred stripe to anything and everything you have left - because the hets alone will be worthwhile. My personal choice would be to buy in a Pewter to put to the bloodred stripe - then you've got Bloodreds het Charcoal Stripe and that's a reasonable "goodie" for people. Picking up other bloodred-based morphs = a good thing too. Fire to Bloodred Stripe, Granite to Bloodred Stripe...


----------



## Danny_mcr

cheers m8 bloodred stripe is het for snow so how would this affect outcomes? first pairing will be snow x amel as i need to get the rest to breeding standards.: victory:


----------



## crocsrule

what would i get if i bred a ghost corn to a amel corn


----------



## Ssthisto

You'd get all normals het for Amel, Anery and Hypo.


----------



## ackie123

i no its porb been asked already but i cant be bothered trying to look for it sorry lol.what about amel to normal?or is it a daft question:whistling2: lol


----------



## oakelm

ackie123 said:


> i no its porb been asked already but i cant be bothered trying to look for it sorry lol.what about amel to normal?or is it a daft question:whistling2: lol


Normals het amel

But normals are never just normals anymore they often have hets even if they arent sold as having them. Very difficult to find a pure line of normals.


----------



## ackie123

oakelm said:


> Normals het amel
> 
> But normals are never just normals anymore they often have hets even if they arent sold as having them. Very difficult to find a pure line of normals.


cool cheers.my OH really liked the normal and wants us to get one in the future so just woundered.


----------



## Ssthisto

You're best looking for a Normal het Snow if that's the case - they'll be relatively easy to find, and you have a chance of getting Amel babies out of that; the reason I suggest "het snow" is because there's a reasonable chance of any corn snake being het for Anery - which, if your amel was, would give you the chance of Anery or Snow.


----------



## Danny_mcr

the last list i posted was for the next 3 years. nxt year il have these available to breed. so im getting confused what i will get and which ones to keep and add to the previous list.

butter motley 
snow
amel 
normal 
anery a
anery b 
hypo
oketee
ghost


----------



## Danny_mcr

was thinking poss

butter motley x hypo
snow x ghost 
anery a x okeete
anery b x amel

not sure if they are the best pairings.:bash:


----------



## angela__k__84

I've been doing my 101 reading on genetics and I have got the hang on simple pairings but double het is still confusing me. If someone could simplify it for me :bash::bash:
For example, I have a pair of normals het anery and butter. If I were to breed them what would the outcome be?
Thanks!


----------



## bladeblaster

Well butter is a combination of amel and caramel so are you saying that one is het butter and the other het anery, or they are both triple hets?

If one is het butter and the other het anery then you will only produce visual normals, which will all be 50% het for anery, amel, and caramel. Not a pairing I would personally bother with TBH.


----------



## Ssthisto

Danny_mcr said:


> was thinking poss
> 
> butter motley x hypo
> snow x ghost
> anery a x okeete
> anery b x amel
> 
> not sure if they are the best pairings.:bash:


Butter Motley X Hypo will make all normals het Hypo, Amel, Caramel, Motley.

Anery X Okeetee will produce normals het Anery.

Charcoal X Amel will produce normals het Charcoal, Amel.

What sexes are which animals?



angela__k__84 said:


> I've been doing my 101 reading on genetics and I have got the hang on simple pairings but double het is still confusing me. If someone could simplify it for me :bash::bash:
> For example, I have a pair of normals het anery and butter. If I were to breed them what would the outcome be?
> Thanks!


Normal het Anery, Amel, Caramel will produce (in decreasing order of likelihood)

1 in 1 chance per egg of: 
Normal possible het Anery, Amel, Caramel

1 in 4 chance per egg of:
Caramel possible het Anery, Amel
Amel possible het Caramel, Anery
Anery possible het Amel, Caramel

1 in 16 chance per egg of:
Butter possible het Anery
Caramel-Anery possible het Amel (this is not distinguishable from Anery visually as a hatchling!)
Snow possible het Caramel

1 in 64 chance per egg of:
Xanthic Snow


----------



## stephenie191

I got a quick one, 

I'm thinking of buying a stripe female to breed with my snowcorn stripe

probably Normal stripe or an Amel stripe. 


Will all the babies be stripe? with unknow hets? sorry :blush:


----------



## angela__k__84

Ah, that is soooo much to take in.
They are both het for anery and butter - from the same clutch. Not saying I will breed them - just an example to get my head round multiple hets.


----------



## Ssthisto

stephenie191 said:


> I got a quick one,
> 
> I'm thinking of buying a stripe female to breed with my snowcorn stripe
> 
> probably Normal stripe or an Amel stripe.
> 
> Will all the babies be stripe? with unknow hets? sorry :blush:


Breed Stripe to Stripe and you'll get ALL stripes.

If one of the parents is a snow stripe, you know ALL babies will be at least het for Anery AND Amel.


----------



## angela__k__84

So if you bred a snow stripe to an anery stripe would you produce - 

Amel stripe het snow and anery
Anery stripe het amel and snow
Snow stripe het anery and amel?

I don't think I'm getting this yet haha - sorry!


----------



## adsclarke

Snow Stripe ( Amel, Anery, Stripe )
x
Anery Stripe 

Will give you:

All Anery Stripe het for Amel

This is because both parents are visually Anery and Stripe so all your babies will be.
Only the snow is visualy for Amel so all the babies will be het for Amel.


----------



## angela__k__84

Yeah, I still totally don't get this haha - good thing I have at least a year to go til breeding!
So would snow stripe to snow stripe produce amel, snow and anery stripes?


----------



## adsclarke

If both the parents visually have a trait then all the babies will have that trait as well. This is because the parents have no normal genes for that trait to pass on.

So 
Snow Stripe (Amel, Anery, Stripe)
X
Snow Stripe (Amel, Anery, Stripe)
=
All Snow Stripe

It gets confusing when the parents have hets

So 
Amel Stripe het Anery
X
Anery Stripe het Amel
=
1/4 Normal Stripe het Amel, Anery
1/4 Anery Stripe het Amel
1/4 Amel Stripe het Anery
1/4 Snow Stripe

This is because each parent can only pass on what they are visual for but can (but might not) pass on their hets.
All will be Stripe because both parents are visually stripe
1/4 will be normal becuase they have only got amel and anery from one parent and normal from the other (normal stripe het amel, anery)
1/4 Will have got Anery from both parents but amel from only one (anery stripe het amel)
1/4 will have got Amel from both parents but anery from only one (amel stripe het anery)
1/4 will have got Amel and Anery from both parents (snow stripe)

Also, it is important to remember that this is only the probability of what will happen. If you are lucky you could get many snow stripes and no normals but the above are the only possible outcomes.

I hope that has helped?

Adam


----------



## Ssthisto

No, Snow Stripe to Snow Stripe can ONLY produce Snow Stripe, because there aren't any "not Amel" or "not Anery" genes for either parent to pass on to their offspring.


----------



## adsclarke

Ssthisto said:


> No, Snow Stripe to Snow Stripe can ONLY produce Snow Stripe, because there aren't any "not Amel" or "not Anery" genes for either parent to pass on to their offspring.


That was a much more simple way of saying it - Sometimes I talk too much... :bash:

Exactly what Ssthisto said.


----------



## angela__k__84

Haha - I think I need a good genetics book - can anyone suggest one?


----------



## bladeblaster

just practice make up some pairings and try and work out the outcomes.


----------



## angela__k__84

Like I say, still have a year before any breeding will get done - let's hope I can get my brain around it!


----------



## adsclarke

Any questions, just ask.. There are plenty of people always happy to help!

Ads


----------



## Ssthisto

angela__k__84 said:


> Haha - I think I need a good genetics book - can anyone suggest one?


Genetics for Herpers by Charles Pritzel.


----------



## angela__k__84

Thank you


----------



## adamholtom85

ok,

miami 100%het for amber x normal het for caramel, ghost, motley?


----------



## Ssthisto

You have:

1 in 1 chance per egg of:
Normal possible het Caramel, Hypo, Anery, Motley

1 in 4 chance per egg of:
Caramel possible het Hypo, Anery, Motley
Hypo possible het Anery, Caramel, Motley

1 in 16 chance per egg of:
Amber possible het Anery, Motley


----------



## corn snake king

what would you get if you bred a ghost to a candy cane and then a candy can to a amel


----------



## adamholtom85

ok cool, i was hoping for some caramels and an amber


----------



## Ssthisto

Ghost to Amel (Candy-cane type):

All normals het for Amel, Anery, Hypo. 

Amel to Amel (Candy-Cane type):

All Amels. Some may be poor-quality Candy Canes, but you're unlikely to get GOOD candies out of that cross.


----------



## angela__k__84

So if I have two parent's both visually hypo - I presume all the offspring would be visually hypo. But what about if only one parent is hypo?
Also does aberrant markings in one parent effect the offspring in the same manner as a stripe or are aberrant markings a fluke really?


----------



## bladeblaster

if only 1 parent is hypo then you will only get het hypos. Not 100% sure with corns but usually abbarent patterns are caused by fluctuations in incubation temps, although some can be genetic it would need to be proven out by breeding them.


----------



## angela__k__84

I didn't think it was genetic. Thanks 
So! Here goes...
A hypo tangerine honduran milk x hypo tangerine honduran milk het ghost will produce
hypo tangerine 50% het ghost?
And hypo tangerine het ghost x ghost will produce
50% Ghost
50% Tangerine and half the clutch will be het hypo?
Any closer....:lol2:

would the tangerines also be het ghost....?


----------



## angela__k__84

I have a question about punnet squares, boy, everyone must be sick of me by now!
Is there a particular order in which to line up the parents? Female in white, male in green - or vice versa?








Or does it depend on the genes carried?


----------



## Ssthisto

Yes, if both parents are visual hypos, all offspring have to be hypo - because neither parent can give a "not hypo" gene.

But if one parent is a hypo and the other does not carry hypo at all, you cannot get hypo offspring - because one parent is donating a copy of dominant "not hypo" to all the babies.

Aberrant markings can be genetic OR incubation-related. No way to tell until you've bred it out


----------



## angela__k__84

If one parent is hypo will you have 50% het hypo? Or is it just moot?


----------



## Ssthisto

If one parent is hypo (and hypo is recessive) then you will get 100% het hypo babies which can be referred to just as "het hypo".

The "50%" and "66%" refer to the percentage CHANCE that an animal is carrying a trait invisibly - you don't get 50% percent het or 66% het babies from a *visual* trait carrier parent. You only get the "possible het percentages" from parents that are known to carry the trait but do not show it visually.


----------



## angela__k__84

yeah, I get that. It's just about the only thing I understand at the moment lol
Just assumed as only one parent carried hypo only 50% of the clutch would receive it.
Right, I understand. Because hypo is visual in the parent then all the clutch will receive it. If it was something that wasn't visual in the parent then there is only a chance the offspring carry it?


----------



## angela__k__84

SSthisto, can you clear up my confusion with punnet squares?


----------



## Ssthisto

TBH, far as punnett squares go, it makes no nevermind whether the male's trait is first or last - as long as you're *consistent* with how you do it.

I tend to put the male's traits across the top and first if I do a punnett; I must admit I generally don't bother, I work it out mathematically based on fractional/percentage chances.


----------



## angela__k__84

Thanks. You've been a big help.


----------



## Danny_mcr

another one m8 

normal het butter stripe x buttet motley 
anery stripe x normal het butter stripe 
anery stripe x pewter
bloodred x pewter 

not requested sexes just yet going to speak to nige soon about sexes. starting 2 understand the normal , anery pairings etc but not stripes, pewters etc


----------



## bladeblaster

Danny_mcr said:


> another one m8
> 
> normal het butter stripe x buttet motley
> anery stripe x normal het butter stripe
> anery stripe x pewter
> bloodred x pewter
> 
> not requested sexes just yet going to speak to nige soon about sexes. starting 2 understand the normal , anery pairings etc but not stripes, pewters etc


 
normal het butter stripe x buttet motley 
12.5% normal het butter stripe
12.5% normal stripe het butter
12.5% caramel het amel stripe
12.5% caramel stripe het amel
12.5% amel het caramel stripe
12.5% amel stripe het caramel
12.5% butter het stripe
12.5% butter stripe

anery stripe x normal het butter stripe
50% normals 100% het anery pos het stripe amel and caramel
50% normal stripes 100% het anery pos het amel and caramel

anery stripe x pewter
normals het anery, charcoal, diffused, and stripe

bloodred x pewter

Diffused (bloodred) het charcoal


----------



## Ssthisto

bladeblaster said:


> normal het butter stripe x buttet motley
> 12.5% normal het butter stripe
> 12.5% normal stripe het butter
> 12.5% caramel het amel stripe
> 12.5% caramel stripe het amel
> 12.5% amel het caramel stripe
> 12.5% amel stripe het caramel
> 12.5% butter het stripe
> 12.5% butter stripe


Actually, you wouldn't expect to get ANY Stripes out of that because Motley is dominant to Stripe, not the other way around 

You'd have:

1 in 1 chance per egg of:
Normal het Caramel Amel Motley

1 in 2 chance per egg of:
Motley-het-Stripe het Caramel, Amel
Caramel het Amel Motley
Amel het Caramel Motley

1 in 8 chance per egg of:
Caramel Motley-het-Stripe het Amel
Amel Motley-het-Stripe het Caramel
Butter het Motley

1 in 32 chance per egg of:
Butter Motley-het-Stripe


----------



## bladeblaster

Ssthisto said:


> Actually, you wouldn't expect to get ANY Stripes out of that because Motley is dominant to Stripe, not the other way around
> 
> You'd have:
> 
> 1 in 1 chance per egg of:
> Normal het Caramel Amel Motley
> 
> 1 in 2 chance per egg of:
> Motley-het-Stripe het Caramel, Amel
> Caramel het Amel Motley
> Amel het Caramel Motley
> 
> 1 in 8 chance per egg of:
> Caramel Motley-het-Stripe het Amel
> Amel Motley-het-Stripe het Caramel
> Butter het Motley
> 
> 1 in 32 chance per egg of:
> Butter Motley-het-Stripe


sorry motley and stripe always throws me


----------



## DDV

rootbeer 2 normal

rootbeer 2 normal het. amel,

I'm new, sorry if it's obvious


----------



## Ssthisto

Because a Rootbeer is essentially a "normal" - but a normal with Great Plains Ratsnake AND corn snake ancestors - both of those crosses would produce more Rootbeer Rats, with the latter being "Possible het Amel".


----------



## Danny_mcr

right think ive pretty much decided the sexes of my new additions

males females 

butter motley amel
lavender butter het motley 
snow bloodred 
pewter anery stripe 
normal het butter stripe 

hopefully go for butter stripe's and charcoal stripes but theese would be second generation i take it? not sure about pewter and lavender pairings. i can change the sex of lavender n pewter before i get them if theres any females available in these morphs but think ive got it spot on apart from a few: victory:


----------



## Danny_mcr

males.. butter motley , lavender , snow and pewter 

females ... amel , butter het motley , bloodred , anery stripe and normal het butter stripe

sorry about last list:lol2:


----------



## DDV

Ssthisto said:


> Because a Rootbeer is essentially a "normal" - but a normal with Great Plains Ratsnake AND corn snake ancestors - both of those crosses would produce more Rootbeer Rats, with the latter being "Possible het Amel".



I see thanks, The mother of these rootbeers is 100% emory 
I guess expected the 2nd generation of rootbeer to have the amber color lighter or something, is it correct understood that the amel version of rootbeer is called creamsicle?

This was added to get broader and larger snakes, do you know how do we get the ,,red rat" color back in the line?


----------



## alinoee

hi. if i put classic together with snow stripe i would get classic het snow stripe or classic het snow het stripe? and what would i get if would breed offspring to snow stripe again. I'm trying to get the grip of this thing. cheers


----------



## adsclarke

Hey,

If you breed a classic to a snow stripe you would get:
All classic het amel, anery, stripe.

If you then breed the offspring back to the snow stripe you would get:
1 / 8 Normal het Anery, Amel, Stripe
1 / 8 Stripe het Anery, Amel
1 / 8 Anery het Amel, Stripe
1 / 8 Amel het Anery, Stripe
1 / 8 Anery, Stripe het Amel
1 / 8 Amel, Stripe het Anery
1 / 8 Snow het Stripe
1 / 8 Snow, Stripe

Cheers
Ads


----------



## alinoee

thanks a mil


----------



## Sam'n'Droo

*Another one..*

Amel het Motley and a Miami het Amel + Motley.. 

I know, not exciting but am still interested to know..

Thanks, Sam :blush:


----------



## Ssthisto

In order of most likely to least:

1:1 chance per egg of normal het amel, poss het Motley

1:2 chance per egg of Amel poss het Motley

1:4 chance per egg of Motley het Amel

1:8 chance per egg of Amel Motley

Note I'm not using "Miami" because you're unlikely to get any good-quality silvery-backgrounded Miamis out of a cross like that.


----------



## VoodooViper

Hi, I have 2 female carolinas and want a male....what options have i got apart from normal carolina to carolina, if any?Not too good on corn morphs, cheers:2thumb:


----------



## Ssthisto

The only thing really worth trying is a Snow Motley or Snow Stripe male - that will test them for the three most likely possible hets (Amel, Anery, Motley-locus) but you're only guaranteed to get normals het for Snow Motley.

Anything else proves your normals are carrying hidden hets.


----------



## VoodooViper

Ok cheers, so breeding a normal carolina to any other corn morph just wouldn't work then?


----------



## Ssthisto

A normal (Carolina/Wildtype/Classic) is a normal - barring hidden hets, you'd expect all normal offspring.

Most of the morphs in corn snakes are recessive - you've got to breed like to like (or het like to het like!) to get visual results.

The only way to get a visual result from a normal-looking corn that is NOT het for one of the recessive morphs is to breed it to a visual dominant morph like Tessera... but that's a couple grand's worth of outlay


----------



## VoodooViper

Ahhh right got it, cheers bud :2thumb:


----------



## Naughty2nice

Hello - what would i get if i bred =

pastel ghost & amel ?
pastel ghost & normal het blood red ?
pastel ghost & amel het lavander stripe?

mine are not old enough to breed but just thinking for future referance .... it would be nice to know if someone could help id be greatful x

thank you


----------



## Ssthisto

First cross you'd get normals het Anery, Hypo and Amel.
Second cross you'd get normals het Anery, hypo and possible het Bloodred/Diffuse.
Third cross you'd get normals het Anery, Hypo, Amel, possible het lavender and stripe.

Basically you don't have any definite matching genes to get visual morph offspring.


----------



## Danny_mcr

getting there:lol2: pewter x amel = all normal het amel, diffused , charcoal. now am i right in thinking its possible to achieve fire, blizzard and whiteouts by breeding two of these siblings together?: victory:


----------



## Ssthisto

Yes indeed, although it's a 1 in 16 chance at best with the pair you've described (for Blizzard and Fire) and a 1 in 64 chance for the Whiteout.


----------



## Danny_mcr

Ssthisto said:


> Yes indeed, although it's a 1 in 16 chance at best with the pair you've described (for Blizzard and Fire) and a 1 in 64 chance for the Whiteout.[/QUO
> 
> cheers m8 also its a slim chance that after the previous list at the top of the page.
> 
> lavender x diffused = normal het diffused lavender = poss plasma
> lavender x anery stripe = normal het anery lavender stripe = anery lavender stripe
> 
> also i tried using a calculator and with the list at the top of thread i can produce opal, snopal, pewter stripe etc is ok to cross siblings for 2nd gen visual morphs: victory:


----------



## Ssthisto

Generally, as long as you pick the *healthiest, best-growing *siblings to breed from (don't keep the pretty-looking one that took you ages of assist feeding to get going!) then it can be acceptable to breed relatives for one or two generations.


----------



## Danny_mcr

Ssthisto said:


> Generally, as long as you pick the *healthiest, best-growing *siblings to breed from (don't keep the pretty-looking one that took you ages of assist feeding to get going!) then it can be acceptable to breed relatives for one or two generations.


cheers m8 didn't know if it was 100% cross breeding relations. that makes breeding plans a bit easier. cheers. one more thing m8 i cant seem to see much from butter stripe? i love butters but butter stripe seems to end with this or hypo butter i think. is there no way of extending the butter morph like other morphs: victory:


----------



## Kenorsanc

How can butters be improved?

Well theres bloodred, sunkissed and lava would make some neat looking snakes!


----------



## Danny_mcr

Kenorsanc said:


> How can butters be improved?
> 
> Well theres bloodred, sunkissed and lava would make some neat looking snakes!


yeah but caramel genetics only go so far unlike anery's just wondering could this gene go further than what its able to at the mo?: victory:


----------



## Kenorsanc

I think the caramel gene is just as good if not better than the anery gene!

I think in the next few years amber bloodreds are gonna be hot, goldust bloods and topaz's all of which involve caramel!


----------



## Danny_mcr

Kenorsanc said:


> I think the caramel gene is just as good if not better than the anery gene!
> 
> I think in the next few years amber bloodreds are gonna be hot, goldust bloods and topaz's all of which involve caramel!


indeed m8 but im talking about future morphs. just thinking how far can corn morphs go in the next few years, especially ( AMEL, CARAMEL ): victory:


----------



## Kenorsanc

Well theres no way of knowing what a Butter Tessera will look like or terrazo so we'll just have to wait!


----------



## Danny_mcr

Kenorsanc said:


> Well theres no way of knowing what a Butter Tessera will look like or terrazo so we'll just have to wait!


cheers m8 possibly just getting ahead of myself:lol2: wasnt sure if anyone had been this far regards butters: victory:


----------



## bladeblaster

Stripe corns, am I right in thinking that motley is dominant to stripe, so the only way to get stripes, is stripe to stripe/het stripe?

Cheers.


----------



## cornmorphs

Kenorsanc said:


> How can butters be improved?
> 
> Well theres bloodred, sunkissed and lava would make some neat looking snakes!


 i'll have butters hets bloodred motley.. i expect this will be a nice outcome.


----------



## Ssthisto

bladeblaster said:


> Stripe corns, am I right in thinking that motley is dominant to stripe, so the only way to get stripes, is stripe to stripe/het stripe?
> 
> Cheers.


Yes, Motley is dominant to Stripe on the same gene locus.

You've got to have at-least-het stripe in both parents, yes - Motley het Stripe to Motley het Stripe (although you'll only get a small proportion of stripes, and lots of Motleys who are 66% possible het Stripe) will also give you some stripes.


----------



## bladeblaster

Ssthisto said:


> Yes, Motley is dominant to Stripe on the same gene locus.
> 
> You've got to have at-least-het stripe in both parents, yes - Motley het Stripe to Motley het Stripe (although you'll only get a small proportion of stripes, and lots of Motleys who are 66% possible het Stripe) will also give you some stripes.


A motley het stripe would be gene pairing of motley/stripe, rather than motely/motley?

Just thinking about future plans, love stripes but not fussed on motleys, so want concentrate on stripes. Understand the recessive workings, just checking I had the motley being dominant bit right.: victory:


----------



## Ssthisto

That's right - read "Motley het stripe" the same way as you'd read "normal het amel" and you've got your head twisted 'round it correctly.

Some motley-het-stripes may also be "stripey-looking" motleys (I call those "Ribbon" motleys) but there's no guarantee that any given Ribbon Motley is het for stripe.


----------



## bladeblaster

Ssthisto said:


> That's right - read "Motley het stripe" the same way as you'd read "normal het amel" and you've got your head twisted 'round it correctly.
> 
> Some motley-het-stripes may also be "stripey-looking" motleys (I call those "Ribbon" motleys) but there's no guarantee that any given Ribbon Motley is het for stripe.


Cheers. : victory:


----------



## chris25

what morphs should i try to obtain to breed with the following so as to get the best results

and what would result?

female anery stripe

male anery het hypo,poss het amel


----------



## bladeblaster

chris25 said:


> what morphs should i try to obtain to breed with the following so as to get the best results
> 
> and what would result?
> 
> female anery stripe
> 
> male anery het hypo,poss het amel


to go with the female, any anery containing double morph, or anything het anery, obvioulsy motley, stripe, or het motley or stripe.

With the male, I would say coral snow, this will prove if he is het amel or not, plus you should produce ghosts, anerys, and hypos even if hes not.


----------



## chris25

bladeblaster said:


> to go with the female, any anery containing double morph, or anything het anery, obvioulsy motley, stripe, or het motley or stripe.
> 
> With the male, I would say coral snow, this will prove if he is het amel or not, plus you should produce ghosts, anerys, and hypos even if hes not.


thanks...any other suggestions any one?


----------



## Sam'n'Droo

*Corn Genetics!*

Ok.. not 100% with genetics yet.. but just wondered what the outcome of these would be..

Male Hypo Lavender, unknown hets..

Male Amel het Lav Stripe

Female Bloodred poss het motley het Pewter (although i think they mean charcoal as didnt think bloodred could be het for diffused?)

Female Pewter possibly banded unknown hets

I have no idea what is dominant to what, and what the possibilities would be from this 4 above. Can anyone help?

Thanks!


----------



## kennedykrew

Sam'n'Droo said:


> Ok.. not 100% with genetics yet.. but just wondered what the outcome of these would be..
> 
> Male Hypo Lavender, unknown hets..
> 
> Male Amel het Lav Stripe
> 
> Female Bloodred poss het motley het Pewter (although i think they mean charcoal as didnt think bloodred could be het for diffused?)
> 
> Female Pewter possibly banded unknown hets
> 
> I have no idea what is dominant to what, and what the possibilities would be from this 4 above. Can anyone help?
> 
> Thanks!


if you try this calculator it'll tell you!:2thumb:
The Corn Calculator - Corn genetics prediction online


----------



## kennedykrew

it makes life so much easier!:2thumb:


----------



## Ssthisto

Sam'n'Droo said:


> I have no idea what is dominant to what


With *very few* exceptions, none of the traits you've listed are dominant to or recessive to any other - because they're their own traits and don't apply dominance to each other, only to the normal-wildtype version of THEIR OWN trait (like "Lavender" has a corresponding "Not Lavender").

The only non-normal offspring you could produce is by mating the Amel het Stripe to the Bloodred possible het Motley - and that's one of the exceptions (because motley and stripe are flavours of the same gene, and Motley is dominant to stripe) - you could prove out whether she was het motley if she produced any motley offspring, which would be Motley-het-Stripes.


----------



## vetdebbie

Basically you could do with 2 sex changes - the genetics of the 2 males would make a good pairing, and same for the 2 females.........


----------



## cornman247

anery to amel? sorry its bad but i wanna know what i could get


----------



## chris25

male lav het hypo and female opal motely....what would result 

also

male opal motely and female anery stripe.also have an anery het hypo male,where would he figure with any the above fems?


----------



## Estranged

chris25 said:


> male lav het hypo and female opal motely....what would result


All Lavender het Amel and Motley 50% poss het Hypo



chris25 said:


> male opal motely and female anery stripe


All Normal Motley het Lavender, Amel, Anery and Stripe



chris25 said:


> anery het hypo male,where would he figure with any the above fems?[/


Id put him to the Anery Stripe female and put the two Opal Motley's together and look for a Hypo Lavender female to go with your Lavender het Hypo Male.


----------



## eeji

cornman247 said:


> anery to amel? sorry its bad but i wanna know what i could get


all normals het amel and anery


----------



## Dave-Flames

father candycane het anery, hypo and charcoal
mother anery het amel....


----------



## eeji

Dave-Flames said:


> father candycane het anery, hypo and charcoal
> mother anery het amel....


25% Anery het amel
25% Amel het anery
25% Normal het anery and amel
25% Snow

all will be 50% ph charcoal and hypo


----------



## Dave-Flames

cool thanks


----------



## cornmorphs87

what would u get if u bred a green blotch x oktee ghost corn snake?please advise as unsure:gasp::gasp:


----------



## Ssthisto

Is the ghost a GHOST (light grey with darker grey saddle borders and no red anywhere) or is it an Okeetee (orange with red saddles and wide black borders) het for ghost?

If you breed a green-blotched snow to a ghost you will get Anery babies who are all het for Amel and Hypo.

If you breed a green-blotched snow to an Okeetee het ghost, you will get normal babies het for Amel, Anery and Hypo, and you'll also get Anery babies het for Amel and Hypo.


----------



## Pete Q

This might be a big ask, but could someone list all the new age corn morphs and what is the bloodline that made it. Is there a list already some where ? Something like this.
Genetic Makeup of Morphs

Amber: Caramel + Hypo
Blizzard: Charcoal + Amelanism
Butter: Caramel + Amelanism
Crimson: Miami + Hypo
Ghost: Anery A + Hypo
Granite: Bloodred + Anery A
Ice: Lava + Anery A
Opal: Lavender + Amelanism
Pastel: Anery A + Hypo (normally a very light ghost with pink hues).
Pewter: Charcoal + Bloodred
Phantom: Charcoal + Hypo
Snow: Amelanism + Anerythristic
Snow (Coral): Amelanism + Anerythristic + Hypo
Sulfur: Butter + Bloodred


----------



## Ssthisto

What do you mean by "new age" ?


----------



## vetdebbie

there's a link to that kind of stuff on the corn calculator

The Corn Calculator - Corn snake genetics prediction

I think that's what you're getting at?


----------



## Ssthisto

Eeji's Corn Morph Guide online is another good one - photos, plus genotypes.


----------



## vetdebbie

That is indeed even more comprehensive!


----------



## Pete Q

Ssthisto said:


> What do you mean by "new age" ?


It could be they are not so new anymore, I've just not kept up with it all really, so not anery, snow, amel, striped, and motley. I see so many names these days and just wonder how that was made.


----------



## Ssthisto

Then this is what you need, Pete...

Ians Vivarium International Reptile Community Forum | Cornsnake colour and pattern morphs


----------



## Pete Q

vetdebbie said:


> there's a link to that kind of stuff on the corn calculator
> 
> The Corn Calculator - Corn snake genetics prediction
> 
> I think that's what you're getting at?


 Thats very good thanks. :2thumb:


----------



## Pete Q

Ssthisto said:


> Then this is what you need, Pete...
> 
> Ians Vivarium International Reptile Community Forum | Cornsnake colour and pattern morphs


Thats great, thanks.


----------



## colin 1969

*corn genetics*

hi there , heres one for someone to help me with going by my snake list signiture which would be the best pairings and what would i be likely to get from them


----------



## ex0tics

you don't have a signature:lol2:


----------



## MonkeyWrench27

What morphs do you get with a creamsicle female and a butter morph male?


----------



## Ssthisto

You get all creamsicle ratsnakes het caramel (AKA "het buttercream") - none of them will be actual *cornsnakes*


----------



## Tazer

I've got a gorgeous anery I'm plannning on breeding from when she's old enough, I've also got a miami. Although they are both females, I was wondering what you'd get if you bred an anery with a miami. 

Also any other idea's of what morphs I could breed them with, and what the likely outcomes would be.

Thanks


----------



## Ssthisto

You'd get normals het for Anery; they might be more tan/silver than your typical normal, but unless your Anery is from Miami stock you're unlikely to get anything that really looks Miami-ish.

This is because Miami is a line bred morph, not a simple recessive - you don't get "Het for Miami". 

Things you could breed to an Anery: Anything that is or is het for Anery - anery, anery motley or stripe or bloodred, snow, and so on.

Things you could breed to a Miami: I wouldn't waste one on anything other than another Miami-based morph - Miami or Crimson.


----------



## Tazer

Thanks. I've got no idea what lines my anery's from, all I know, is that she is a usa import.


----------



## MonkeyWrench27

What will you get if you cross a caramel corn with a creamsicle?


----------



## Danny_mcr

Ssthisto said:


> You get all creamsicle ratsnakes het caramel (AKA "het buttercream") - none of them will be actual *cornsnakes*


 think this answers the above post: victory:


----------



## Rory1994

*Corn Morph help*

hi i purchased my first snake, already want LOADS more.

its a Carolina het Crimson female, and im lookin to breed he/she when theyre older, can sum1 recommend some morphs to breed with please.


----------



## bladeblaster

you can't have a carolina het crimson, crimson is a hypo miami


----------



## Rory1994

:gasp: it says on the tub i got carolina het crimson, hmmm...... is there no way it can be this. damn thats annoyin.:devil:


----------



## Rory1994

so do u think that this is in fact carolina het hypo or something....im a noob at corn snake genetics :blush:


----------



## Ssthisto

Yes, it will be a "normal" het hypo.

Unless it is *visually* a Miami-type, it's unlikely to produce Hypo Miamis when bred to a Hypo Miami; since that's what a Crimson is, the box has been poorly labelled.


----------



## Rory1994

*ta m8*

thanks m8, i know its a carolina, at least, so if i bred this to another carolina (no hets), what would it produce.

thanks again,


----------



## Ssthisto

"Carolina" is another word for "Normal / Wildtype / Classic". It's not a morph.

If you breed it to another wildtype, you'd expect more wildtypes.


----------



## Rory1994

k m8, sorry about my newbiness, thanks very much would this be right

Normal (het hypo) x Normal

100% Normal (50% poss. het hypo)

thanks again, im learning


----------



## Ssthisto

That's EXACTLY right.


----------



## Rory1994

and im one step up the knowledge ladder


----------



## Tyrone

hiya, Firstly i think your amazing for knowing all this about genetics, its hurts my brain trying to understand all this lol, I want to produce some more interesting corns next year and was wondering if i had anything i could put together to get anything other that commons or amels? I have 
1 male okatee
1 male common
1 female common
1 female snow
1 female anery type a
1 female amel or creamsicle, not sure but is orange with darker orange saddles with no white?
1 the same as above but motley

I also have a male blizzard but is underweight (rescue) so doubt i can use him.
would u give me the most interesting pairings with and then without the blizzard. Also could i make any thing abit more interesting with an amel male as they are easy to find and in my price range? Could u recommend a male morph that might make unusual off spring with the females i have? Sorry thats loads of questions but if u can answer any i will be gratefull. Cheers oh sorry one more question, Y do some off my cornsnakes lay perfectly round seprated eggs and some lay oval ones stuck together? is that something to do with a creamsickle having emrys rat snake in it? Thanks again


----------



## Ssthisto

With the males you have (unless you got the blizzard up to a good healthy weight) the ONLY offspring you could guarantee are normals.

You'd get normals from any male to the female Common, barring hidden hets.
You'd get normals het Amel and Anery from any male to the female snow, barring hidden hets.
You'd get normals het Anery from any male to the female anery, barring hidden hets.
You'd get normals het Amel from any male to the female Amel, barring hidden hets.
You'd get normals het Amel and Motley from any male to the female Amel Motley.

If you added in the Blizzard, you have the chance at:

Normals het Amel and Charcoal with the Common
Amels het Anery and Charcoal with the Snow (and I would not be surprised if you got snows; many charcoal-based morphs are also het Anery)
Normals het Anery and Charcoal with the Anery (although again Anery wouldn't surprise me)
Amels het Charcoal from the Amel
Amels het Charcoal and Motley from the Amel Motley

If you want a male morph that'll make unusual offspring in the FIRST generation, about your only choice would be something like the following:

*Snow Motley* (make snows with the snow, amels with the amel, anerys with the anery, amel motleys with the amel motley, all of which will be het for the ingredients in Snow Motley that they don't carry).
*Ultramel* or *Ultramel Motley* (Make ultramels and amels het anery with the snow, make ultramels and amels with the two amels...)

Either way, they're not quite as cheap as an Amel male - but an amel male won't make anything REALLY amazing in one generation.

With corns it's generally necessary to *breed like to like* - if both parents don't carry a given trait, you're not going to produce that trait. 

No, the eggs sticking together and being round or oval doesn't have anything to do with ratsnake heritage. Most corns lay clutches that stick together; oval eggs tend to be bigger eggs.


----------



## Tyrone

Thank you Ssthisto, That's really helpfull and I think i understand it all abit better now, thanks


----------



## Rory1994

can some1 tell me the odds per egg of this corn snake breeding.

normal het hypo x crimson

thanks


----------



## Ssthisto

You have a 50% chance per egg of normals (which may be a bit Miami-ish) het hypo, and a 50% chance per egg of Hypos (which may be a bit crimson-ish).


----------



## coolfool

*hey*

i got one i think i no but better to ask the master 
amel stripe male and anery
amel stripe male female snow have 9 of these hehehe..(all snows btw)
keeping to try get snow stripes ect ...
p.s not sure on tany hets on these.


----------



## Ssthisto

Amel stripe to Anery = Normals het Amel, Anery, Stripe (barring hidden hets).
Amel stripe to Snow = Amels het Anery, Stripe (barring hidden hets).

If you're aiming for Snow Stripe, keep the amels het anery stripe - the fewer hets you've got to work on the better.


----------



## coolfool

Ssthisto said:


> Amel stripe to Anery = Normals het Amel, Anery, Stripe (barring hidden hets).
> Amel stripe to Snow = Amels het Anery, Stripe (barring hidden hets).
> 
> If you're aiming for Snow Stripe, keep the amels het anery stripe - the fewer hets you've got to work on the better.


Amel stripe to Snow = Amels het Anery, Stripe (barring hidden hets).
i have bread these and got all snows but 2 that have shed are getting amel like with every shed all have red eyes to i am keeping them all back does that mean one mine have hidden hets as all mine came out snow?? ie my amel stripe het anery thanks.


----------



## Ssthisto

coolfool said:


> Amel stripe to Snow = Amels het Anery, Stripe (barring hidden hets).
> i have bread these and got all snows but 2 that have shed are getting amel like with every shed all have red eyes to i am keeping them all back does that mean one mine have hidden hets as all mine came out snow?? ie my amel stripe het anery thanks.


If they're getting "more amel like" then they are Amels and not snows.

It's quite possible for an amel to hatch out LOOKING very much like a snow - the red colouring is one of the last things to develop in the egg, and sometimes it hasn't fully developed before the baby hatches.

Do you have any photos of the babies? It's usually possible to tell a "late-developer" Amel from a snow, even when they hatch.


----------



## peach

What do you think would pair nicely with my _*Crimson*_ & also my _*Pastel Motley*_ Male?
And what would they produce?


----------



## Ssthisto

Crimson is Hypo Miami, so I would get a good-quality Miami het Hypo to go with it.

Pastel Motley can be either Anery motley or Ghost motley genetically (either of which is bred for high colour) - do you know which it is?


----------



## peach

Ssthisto said:


> Pastel Motley can be either Anery motley or Ghost motley genetically (either of which is bred for high colour) - do you know which it is?


Its a Ghost Motley.....


----------



## Ssthisto

My choice then would be something like a Hypo Bloodred - but that's because I like "project snakes".


----------



## peach

hmm interesting! 
what about if i just wanted to produce something simple or 'non fancy' from the crimson and pastel motley?


----------



## peach

what is the genetic make up of a miami by the way??


----------



## vetdebbie

peach said:


> what is the genetic make up of a miami by the way??


A miami is a regional variant on normal or wild type. As is carolina, okeetee and upper keys.


----------



## peach

so if i put my crimson to a normal they would be......????


----------



## Ssthisto

Normals het Hypo that might look a little "miami-ish" but are unlikely to be GOOD Miamis.


----------



## peach

hmmm...ok thanks all for ur help


----------



## coolfool

*hey some picts.*













































ok heres the picts if there all snows how did that happen thanx ..
brb gonna change them..


----------



## Ssthisto

You're right, they definitely look like snows, which means your Amel Stripe is het Anery.

And it will have happened the same way as it is possible to flip a coin and get heads ten times in a row


----------



## coolfool

ah ti thought he was het anery well at least i no ill be holding these back anway.thanks you realy no your stuff..im sure i can find more for u hehehe thanks.


----------



## Rory1994

hi how would i make a snow corn snake, i know its amel,anery, but what do i do with the normal het anery,het amel.


----------



## Ssthisto

If you have a normal het anery and amel, and you want to MAKE Snows, you can use any of the following:

Normal het Anery and Amel (1 in 16 chance of Snow per egg)
Anery het Amel (1 in 8 chance of Snow per egg)
Amel het Anery (1 in 8 chance of Snow per egg)
Snow (1 in 4 chance of Snow per egg)


----------



## Tyrone

Hi, could you tell me what i would get if i put 
Blizzard x lavender 
Amel x lavender
Amel x snow 
Also would Amel x Amel produce 100% Amels?
Thank you


----------



## peach

someone please correct me if im wrong but i think....

amel x lavender = normal het amel and lavender
amel x snow = amel het anery
and amel x amel would be 100% amel
dunno about blizzard x lavender tho


----------



## Ssthisto

You're absolutely right, Peach....

Blizzard X Lavender would make normal het for Amel and Charcoal (from the blizzard) and Lavender (from the lavender).


----------



## peach

actually would i be right in sayin blizzard x lavender would give you ....
normal het charcoal het lavender?

lol didnt see the above post b4 i posted


----------



## Ssthisto

Just remember that Blizzard is Amel Charcoal rather than just plain Charcoal.


----------



## peach

ive just been checkin my info and ive realised my snow female is het hypo so if i put her to my pastel motley am i right in sayin i will get...

50% anery het amel, hypo and motley
and 50% ghost het amel and motley....??


----------



## Ssthisto

That's absolutely right.


----------



## peach

woo! im gettin good at this!


----------



## coolfool

*hey just another question lol..*

male het butter
female caramel snow
theres are normals right but what hets? if i got it right that is lol..


----------



## peach

is the female Caramel het snow??


----------



## coolfool

caramel snow..


----------



## Ssthisto

coolfool said:


> male het butter
> female caramel snow
> theres are normals right but what hets? if i got it right that is lol..


You could get:

Normals het caramel, amel, anery
Caramels het amel, anery
Amels het Caramel, anery
Butters het Anery


----------



## peach

in that case im goin with....
25% het snow,amel,anery and caramel
25% amel het anery and caramel
25% caramel het snow
25% butter het anery ?


----------



## peach

i got that one a bit wrong then lol!


----------



## coolfool

so did i lol whats the make up of the caramel snow that might be a stupid question but just checking lol..


----------



## Ssthisto

A Caramel Snow (AKA "Xanthic Snow") is:

Homozygous Amel
Homozygous Anery
Homozygous Caramel


----------



## peach

peach said:


> in that case im goin with....
> 25% het snow,amel,anery and caramel
> 25% amel het anery and caramel
> 25% caramel het snow
> 25% butter het anery ?



i see where i went wrong now! it should have been amel,anery instead of snow lol so in a round about way i got i right! lol


----------



## coolfool

ah yea i would said snow and caramle but wasnt sure thanks.


----------



## derek n

What would you need to produce charcoal corns?

Seen a few of them and think they're really nice looking.


----------



## eeji

charcoal is a single trait, so you would need a male and a female both carrying it, either het or ****


----------



## derek n

eeji said:


> charcoal is a single trait, so you would need a male and a female both carrying it, either het or ****


Cheers : victory:


----------



## coolfool

what makes up miami corns and crimsons i no crimson is hypo miami just not sure what genes makes them up thanks.


----------



## Ssthisto

Miami isn't a single simple gene trait. It's a "selectively bred" or "polygenic" trait - it's the result of lots of little genes all making tiny tweaks that, when they're all together, result in a Miami Corn.

The essential gist of it is that you don't get "het Miami" because it's not a single gene you can get a het for; it pretty much is or it isn't a Miami, and if it's a Miami it will be a Miami of varying quality. The same thing goes for Crimson - that's a Hypo Miami.


----------



## billy1974

*Corns*

Hi I am looking at stepping up my corn breeding next year and was wondering what would be best put together from the following and what they would produce-
Females
Snow
caramel
Butter
Amel motley
Blood red
Miami
Root beer
Amel
Anery motley
Reverse okeetee

Males
Snow
Okeetee
Amel Ghost
Carolina

Rather a large list I know but i like a good challenge lol 
thanks Billy


----------



## Ssthisto

What *exactly* does your "Amel Ghost" male look like? 

I'd match your Okeetee to your Reverse Okeetee to try to preserve the wide borders.
I'd match your snow to anything Amel and/or Anery and/or Snow.
The Carolina male is unlikely to produce anything particularly unusual unless he's carrying hidden hets.

You don't have a male I'd match to your Miami, your Caramel or your Bloodred.


----------



## billy1974

*Corns*

Sorry thats a type error amel and a ghost i forgot the return key lol


----------



## Grond

billy1974 said:


> Hi I am looking at stepping up my corn breeding next year and was wondering what would be best put together from the following and what they would produce-
> Females
> Snow
> caramel
> Butter
> Amel motley
> Blood red
> Miami
> Root beer
> Amel
> Anery motley
> Reverse okeetee
> 
> Males
> Snow
> Okeetee
> Amel Ghost
> Carolina
> 
> Rather a large list I know but i like a good challenge lol
> thanks Billy


You don't have many options that will produce visual morphs unless some of them have hidden hets.

Snow + snow will produce all snows.

Snow + amel will produce amels het anery.

Your amel ghost(not sure about this? would just look like a snow!) will produce amels het ghost(anery and hypo) and motley bred with the female amel motley, and the same but minus het motley if bred with the amel.

Your male snow with your female anery will produce anery het amel.

Other than that all pairings would be visual normals with hets!


----------



## billy1974

*Corns*

What male would go well with the Caramel, Bloodred and Miami?


----------



## Ssthisto

You need something with Caramel (either visual or het) for the Caramel (and the butter, ideally), something with Bloodred for the bloodred - and I wouldn't breed anything to a Miami other than a Miami or a Crimson (hypo Miami).


----------



## billy1974

*corns*

Thanks ssthisto I'll get saving for compatable males lol and i think i have worked out the best pairs hows this -
males/females
okeetee -reverse okeetee
Snow - snow
snow - anery motley
snow - amel
snow - amel motley
female caramel, butter, bloodred, miami and rootbeer paired with any of the males ( ghost, amel, snow, okeetee, carolina) will produce normals with hets so throw these in together( one male at a time) and see what comes out lol.:whistling2:


----------



## eeji

anything you put with your rootbeer will produce hybrids because rootbeer itself is hybrid (corn x emoryi)


----------



## billy1974

*corns*

oh yes i forgot that so therefore the rootbeer would be best with another intergrade such as a creamsicle or cinnamon?


----------



## billy1974

*corns*

If i put my male Okeetee with the female butter would that give a Butter Okeetee?


----------



## Ssthisto

No, it would give you normals (which might be a bit Okeetee-ish) that are het for caramel and amel (AKA "het butter").


----------



## billy1974

*corn*

ok thanks for that if i put my male ghost to the female snow what would that give?


----------



## eeji

billy1974 said:


> ok thanks for that if i put my male ghost to the female snow what would that give?


anery het hypo amel :2thumb:


----------



## billy1974

*corns*

Ok i still not getting all this sorted in my head lol genetics are really hard work how on earth do you all do it lol are there any web sites that tell you what to put with what and what you would get from the pairing ?


----------



## billy1974

*corn*

ok so how about this one - if a candycane is a selectively bred amel and that was put to a snow that would give amels het for anery or am i again way wrong lol


----------



## Grond

billy1974 said:


> Ok i still not getting all this sorted in my head lol genetics are really hard work how on earth do you all do it lol are there any web sites that tell you what to put with what and what you would get from the pairing ?


The bit you don't seem to have sorted, is that with recessive genes(like those of corns) you have to inherit the gene from both parents for the trait to show.

This is further complicated bt the fact that your oketee and miami are line bred so there is no reliable way to breed them to anything and get guaranteed results.

http://www.serpwidgets.com/Genetics/genetics.html


----------



## eeji

a really good site for helping you calculate stuff is at: The Corn Calculator - Corn snake genetics prediction with links to photos of the expected hatchlings


----------



## peach

ok....i have a snow male and i want to put him to something to see if he has any hets....what do you think would be best to put him to?


----------



## Ssthisto

If you want to test him for the most common hets, you might try something like a ghost stripe or ghost motley - that will test him for hypo and for motley/stripe.


----------



## Tyrone

Hi, I would like to produce some snows next year. Am i right in thinking if i put an anery with an amel i would get some snows? i don't know the genetics of the adults. If yes what percentage could i expect to be snow if any? I also have a female snow so would i get more snows if i put an amel male with her? Just trying to plan in advance what i'm going to pair off. Thank you.


----------



## Grond

Tyrone said:


> Hi, I would like to produce some snows next year. Am i right in thinking if i put an anery with an amel i would get some snows? i don't know the genetics of the adults. If yes what percentage could i expect to be snow if any? I also have a female snow so would i get more snows if i put an amel male with her? Just trying to plan in advance what i'm going to pair off. Thank you.


To get snows, _both_ parents need to pass on the genes for anery and amel.

If you breed your anery to your amel, you will get 100% normals all of which would be 100% het for amel and anery.

If your amel is het for anery, or your anery is het for amel, then you would have a chance of snows.

If you put an anery or an amel to a snow, you would get amels or anerys(depending which you used) 100% het for the other trait!


----------



## MonkeyWrench27

I have a few questions, what would you get from the following.

Butter x Butter motley
Butter x snow
Butter x creamsicle
Butter x Anery
Butter x Anery Motley
Butter x Normal het snow

Snow Stripe x snow
Snow Stripe x creamsicle
Snow Stripe x Anery 
Snow Stripe x Anery Motley
Snow Stripe x Normal het snow
Snow Stripe x Butter Motley


----------



## Ssthisto

Butter x Butter motley = Butter het motley
Butter x snow = Amel het Caramel, Anery
Butter x creamsicle = Creamsicle het Caramel (NOT A CORNSNAKE)
Butter x Anery = Normals het Amel, Anery, Caramel
Butter x Anery Motley = Normals het Amel, Anery, Caramel, Motley
Butter x Normal het snow = Normals het Amel, Caramel poss Anery; Amels het Caramel poss Anery.

Snow Stripe x snow = Snow het Stripe
Snow Stripe x creamsicle = Creamsicle het Anery Stripe (NOT A CORNSNAKE)
Snow Stripe x Anery = Anery het Amel Stripe
Snow Stripe x Anery Motley = Anery Motley het Stripe, Amel
Snow Stripe x Normal het snow = Normals, Amels, Anery, Snows het Stripe and whatever they aren't visual for.
Snow Stripe x Butter Motley = Amel Motley het Stripe, Anery, Caramel


----------



## MonkeyWrench27

Thanks very much :2thumb:


----------



## Tyrone

Hi, i'm trying to use the corn calculator to put 
Bloodred = 100% ht charcoal 
Caramel = 100% ht bloodred in but don't know what makes a bloodred as its not on the list, Can any one help? Thank you


----------



## Ssthisto

Bloodred is a selectively bred version of "Diffused". 

The result you'd get is:

Normals het Bloodred and Caramel possible het Charcoal
Bloodreds het Caramel possible het Charcoal

In approximately even proportions.


----------



## Tyrone

:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:Thank you :2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


----------



## Tyrone

As both are possible het amel could be looking at 12.5% fires in a few years as well if i got that correct, big 'if' tho but still exciting. :2thumb:


----------



## coolfool

was just looking at what corns i have ready for breeding this year and havnt a clue were to start any ideas lol..

snow male x2
normal female
charcoal male x2
reverse okeetee male
anery female x2
snow female
crimson female
maiami female
normal het stripe poss her blood
amel male

thanks in advance..........


----------



## bothrops

Tyrone said:


> As both are possible het amel could be looking at 12.5% fires in a few years as well if i got that correct, big 'if' tho but still exciting. :2thumb:


Possible het doesn't influence the odds of breedings when predicting.

The possible het (66% or 50%) refers to the chances that the animal actually carries the mutation. In reality it either does or it doesn't. It is either a het or it isn't, the percentage just lets you know the chances that it is.

If they are both 50% het then you have four options - neither are het amel = no amels, male is female isn't = no amels, female is male isn't = no amels or both are het = 25% amel (and all none amels in litter will be 66% het amel).

Because both animals are possible hets it is not worth considering in the prediction....BUT if you produce even a single amel in the litter you will prove out both animals and can then consider them both as 100% hets in all subsequent matings!

Cheers

Andy


----------



## bothrops

coolfool said:


> was just looking at what corns i have ready for breeding this year and havnt a clue were to start any ideas lol..
> 
> snow male x2
> normal female
> charcoal male x2
> reverse okeetee male
> anery female x2
> snow female
> crimson female
> maiami female
> normal het stripe poss her blood
> amel male
> 
> thanks in advance..........


Personally I would remove the miami, crimson and reverse okeetee from the breeding plans until you have equivalent sexes to go with them as Miami and Okeetee are selectively breed 'normals' and mixing them with other normals will just produce normals which are neither Okeetee nor Miami (crimson is hypo miami and reverse okeetee is albino okeetee).

That leaves 

snow male x2
amel male
charcoal male x2
anery female x2
snow female
normal female
normal het stripe poss her blood

as the normal het stripe poss het blood is not sexed and you have no compatible morphs elsewhere I would remove that too.

Finally I would also remove the charcoal males unless you are looking at trying for moonstones.

This leaves 

snow male x2
amel male
normal female
anery female x2
snow female


So, provided you think you can sell them all

snow m x snow female = 100% snow
snow m x anery female = 50% anery het snow 50% snow
amel m x anery female = 100% dbl het snow

...and maybe bring back a charcoal male for the normal female for normals 100% het charcoal 


Cheers


Andy


----------



## coolfool

sweet im looking to get a couple of amel females if possible to putt with my charcoals..

on another note i no miami and hypo = crimson what good to breed crimson with if anything or is it like miami just a normal rereding unless u get its opoposite cluctching at straws can i not put it with the charcoal for phantoms or het phantoms??? or do crisons not work like that...same as miamis ect..

anyone see anything else icould get to makea nice morph....or to get some nice hets..

oh one more thing i have a small aztec female what + aztec makes bloodred ???...or did i pick it up wrong thanks.


----------



## Ssthisto

Crimson works like "Hypo Miami". So the "Miami" part can be treated as "breeds like a normal" - but a crimson can pass hypo on to its offspring.

You can indeed put one to a charcoal to get het phantoms - which may be more grey/tan than the typical Carolina.

Nothing + Aztec makes bloodred, Bloodred is a base morph.


----------



## coolfool

sweet great as always ssthisto m8..thanks right ill go see what else will be nice to make out my lot if anything hehehe..listed above if anyone else can see something thats been missed...

oh yea sorry to be blond but nothing + aztec makes blood so i could put with anything to make blood or anothr aztec/zigzag?????? or normal ect...


----------



## coolfool

just playing about this crimson is quite interesting to play with so it i put her with my snow male would that lead to het corals.??????????would it be normals hey amel het anery hey hypo??? think thats it lol.....


----------



## candyazz

Ssthisto said:


> Nothing + Aztec makes bloodred, Bloodred is a base morph.


aztec is a pattern not a morph so how does that make bloodred ???????????????


----------



## cornmorphs

i think shes saying, NOTHING makes it.. rather than what does..
ssthisti has caught me out a few times, she wont make a simple mistake on this one.


----------



## bothrops

candyazz said:


> aztec is a pattern not a morph so how does that make bloodred ???????????????


 
As Nige says...

Ssthisto is saying that nothing can be added to an aztec to make a bloodred and 'bloodred' is a base morph!

Cheers

Andy


----------



## Ssthisto

Precisely what I was trying to say.

You cannot take "any morph" and add it to "Aztec" to get Bloodred (unless of course you've got one animal of "any morph" that is het bloodred AND your Aztec is also het bloodred).
Bloodred is a base trait, and the only way to get one is to breed animals who are het for it or visually show it.

Incidentally, Bloodred (AKA Diffused) is a pattern too, as are Motley, Stripe, Terrazzo and Tessera


----------



## coolfool

ah thought id picked it up wrong thanks.


----------



## kempy

Sorry if this is going to sound vague, but i have a normal corn snake but would eventually like to breed her, what can i breed her with to get a different morph or will they all look normal and be het.......confused.com. sorry and please don't tell me off for being dim.......who would of thought that im a midwife lol.

cheers


----------



## cornmorphs

yes, unless hidden het come out.. a normal to ny morph will always give ll normals


----------



## kempy

Thanks.


----------



## nikki.n.tom

what would be the best morph to pair up with my male ghost motley?

thanks


----------



## Ssthisto

Something that is or is het for at least one of the following:

Anery
Hypo
Motley or Stripe

That could be combinations, too, like a Snow Stripe (for all Anery Motley-het-Stripe het Hypo and Amel) or Granite (for Anery het Hypo Blood Motley).


----------



## nikki.n.tom

what would I get if a pair the male up with 
lavender het motley
hypo motley


----------



## Ssthisto

Lavender het motley:

Normals het Lavender, Motley, Anery, Hypo
Motleys het Lavender, Anery, Hypo

Hypo Motley:
Hypo Motley het Anery


----------



## Vickylou

Hey hey


My female lavender het motley should be ready for breedin next yr.
Can you pls tell me what the potential outcome would be if i breed her with my normal no known hets, or my snow no known hets

Cheers
Vicky


----------



## Athravan

Vickylou said:


> Hey hey
> 
> 
> My female lavender het motley should be ready for breedin next yr.
> Can you pls tell me what the potential outcome would be if i breed her with my normal no known hets, or my snow no known hets
> 
> Cheers
> Vicky


Lavender het Motley x Normal = Normal, het lavender, possible het motley
Lavender het Motley x Snow = Normal, het Amel, Anery & Lavender, possible het motley.


----------



## Vickylou

Athravan said:


> Lavender het Motley x Normal = Normal, het lavender, possible het motley
> Lavender het Motley x Snow = Normal, het Amel, Anery & Lavender, possible het motley.


Sorry ive confused myself. Will they all show as normal if mated with the snow but have hets for all listed or will there be some visable anery and lavanders?


----------



## Athravan

Vickylou said:


> Sorry ive confused myself. Will they all show as normal if mated with the snow but have hets for all listed or will there be some visable anery and lavanders?


They will all be normal, with triple hets.

To get some visual lavenders (or any recessive morph) BOTH parents need to be carrying lavender (either visual or het).

You would be best finding another lavender motley or an opal motley (or het motley) to pair with her to get the best from her  Failing that, even just finding a normal motley parent would give you normal motleys het lavender which is nice too.


----------



## anthonyq

*sup*

what would i get if i bread my amel with my anery?


----------



## Athravan

anthonyq said:


> what would i get if i bread my amel with my anery?


Normals het amel and anery, also known as normal het snow.


----------



## bennyvenom

ok i have one , 

amel stripe het hypo + anery female with either of the following:-

pueblacorn

snow 

anery


----------



## bothrops

bennyvenom said:


> ok i have one ,
> 
> amel stripe het hypo + anery female with either of the following:-
> 
> pueblacorn
> 
> snow
> 
> anery


corn x pueblacorn = more pueblacorns...not my cup of tea...I'll let someone else talk genetics (assumption is that if normal hybrid all animals would be het amel stripe poss het hypo and anery)

amel stripe het hypo anery x snow = amels het stripe and anery poss het hypo and anery


amel stripe het hypo anery x anery = 50% normal het amel, anery and stripe poss het hypo, 50% anery het amel stripe and poss het hypo




All of the above assumes no unknown hets in either parent

Cheers

Andy


----------



## bennyvenom

thank you , i have no idea about hets for the other snakes so maybe one or two surprises in store


----------



## Drodge

What would be the outcome of candy-cane and an amel stripe?

And if when amels and stripe genes are crossed you get all amels het for stripe, how does an amel stripe animal come about?
I mainly ask the second question because I have tried the corn morph calculator before and many a time wondered this...
Also would there be any possibility of getting a candy-cane stripe? and if so what would you have to breed together?

Many thanks,
Dave


----------



## bothrops

Drodge said:


> What would be the outcome of candy-cane and an amel stripe?
> 
> And if when amels and stripe genes are crossed you get all amels het for stripe, how does an amel stripe animal come about?
> I mainly ask the second question because I have tried the corn morph calculator before and many a time wondered this...
> Also would there be any possibility of getting a candy-cane stripe? and if so what would you have to breed together?
> 
> Many thanks,
> Dave


A candy cane is genetically just an amel. However it has been selectively breed to have a very white background and very red saddles. If you breed it to a 'normal amel' you'll get all amels that will be a range from 'a little bit candycane' through to normal amel and every where in between.
You will NOT get 'candycanes' out.


so candycane to amel stripe will give 100% amel het stripe.

In order to get a recessive gene to show in an animal the animal needs to have two copies of the gene.

Therefore if you breed two normals het stripe then you should get 75% normals and 25% stripes. Breed a stripe to a het stripe for 50/50 stripes in the litter.

the same goes for amel stripes

amel het stripe to amel het stripe = 75% amel 25% amel stripe
amel stripe to amel het stripe = 50/50 amel/amel stripe


if you breed normal het amel stripe to normal het amel stripe you'll be looking at 9/16 normal, 3/16 amel, 3/16 stripe, 1/16 amel stripe

in any het to het mating the normals will also have a chance of being het themselves.

Cheers

Andy


----------



## Drodge

Cheers.
But still wondering if it's possible to get a candycane stripe?
I know candycane=amel selectivly bred, but can you get the candycane colouration in stripe form?
Dave


----------



## Ssthisto

You wouldn't get candy cane stripe in the first generation of stripes, no.

That's because you'd have to selectively breed the ones with the whitest backgrounds together. And because Stripe tends to reduce the contrast between background colour and pattern colour, it wouldn't be an easy task to get bright clean stripes *and* bright white background.


----------



## Drodge

So theoretically you could eventually after lots of selective breeding, but even then it's quite unlikely to get the actual colour tones of the candycane.
Thanks for clearing it up,
Dave


----------



## Ssthisto

After generations of selective breeding - and I'm talking multiple multiple generations of fairly inbred snakes, unless you could get enough unrelated Candy Canes to back-cross and recover the stripe out of - you might well get light red or orange-and-white candy cane stripes - but it'd take a lot of doing.


----------



## Drodge

Yea thats what I thought  would be nice if it was easier...


----------



## BISH9098

what about an amel stripe and caramel stripe? Exscuse my ignorance but im new to this! :blush:


----------



## Ssthisto

You'd get stripes het for amel and caramel - AKA "het butter".


----------



## BISH9098

Ssthisto said:


> You'd get stripes het for amel and caramel - AKA "het butter".


 many thanks! I think im slowly getting my head round it! What you need to produce reverse okeetees then?


----------



## Ssthisto

BISH9098 said:


> many thanks! I think im slowly getting my head round it! What you need to produce reverse okeetees then?


To get good ones, you need two Reverse Okeetees. 

Reverse Okeetee is a selectively bred amelanistic, where through many generations the individuals with the widest white saddle borders and richest orange background colouring were allowed to go on to breed.

If you outcross something that isn't a Reverse Okeetee into one, you're erasing some of that selective breeding.


----------



## BISH9098

ahh I see, so i presume that would be the same for any morph you intended to produce? Do you think there are many more morphs yet to happen or would you say the limit has been reached on morph variations now?


----------



## Ssthisto

No, it's not the same for every morph, just the ones that rely on a LOT of selective breeding to produce the appearance (Okeetee, Miami, Crimson, Candy Cane, Reverse Okeetee, Sunglow) instead of simple recessive traits.

All Candycanes, Reverse Okeetees and Sunglows are amels, but not all Amels are CC, RO or SG.

There are certainly more combination morphs that haven't been produced, although many of them will be pink-eyed white snakes. There are plenty of morphs that haven't been made using some of the newest traits (like Tessera and Terrazzo). And we can't discount the possibility of other traits being discovered either; I'm surprised there isn't a leucistic trait in corns yet, at least not one that's been proven out as being a cornsnake and genetically inheritable.


----------



## My Serpentine Mind

Well I've heard somewhere that if you bred 

anery x amel
and then you breed the babies you get snows.
Is this true?

Also, this is a stupid question but it's on my mind.
if you breed any two of the same morph, will their babies be morphs? 
Like a lavender x lavender will you get a few/all lavender babies? 

Thanks for your help


----------



## Ssthisto

My Serpentine Mind said:


> Well I've heard somewhere that if you bred
> 
> anery x amel
> and then you breed the babies you get snows.
> Is this true?


You have a 1:16 chance-per-egg of getting a Snow grandchild from the Normal-looking offspring of an Anery and an Amel. You're much MORE likely to get Anery, Amel and in fact most of the offspring would be expected to be Normal.

In realistic terms, you quite often find that you cross an Anery and an Amel and you get Snows in the first generation, because so many corns are het for Anery and/or Amel.



> Also, this is a stupid question but it's on my mind.
> if you breed any two of the same morph, will their babies be morphs?
> Like a lavender x lavender will you get a few/all lavender babies?


For recessive genes - like Lavender in corns - if you breed like to like, you'll get ALL offspring like their parents (barring hidden hets, in which case you'd get Lavender PLUS the other traits).

So, for example, if you breed a Lavender to a Lavender, you'd expect all the offspring to be Lavender (and anything that isn't AT LEAST Lavender wasn't sired by the male you thought it was...).

If you breed a Lavender het Amel to a Lavender het Amel, all offspring will be at least Lavender, but some may be Lavender Amelanistic - AKA "Opal".


----------



## My Serpentine Mind

Ssthisto said:


> You have a 1:16 chance-per-egg of getting a Snow grandchild from the Normal-looking offspring of an Anery and an Amel. You're much MORE likely to get Anery, Amel and in fact most of the offspring would be expected to be Normal.
> 
> In realistic terms, you quite often find that you cross an Anery and an Amel and you get Snows in the first generation, because so many corns are het for Anery and/or Amel.
> 
> 
> 
> For recessive genes - like Lavender in corns - if you breed like to like, you'll get ALL offspring like their parents (barring hidden hets, in which case you'd get Lavender PLUS the other traits).
> 
> So, for example, if you breed a Lavender to a Lavender, you'd expect all the offspring to be Lavender (and anything that isn't AT LEAST Lavender wasn't sired by the male you thought it was...).
> 
> If you breed a Lavender het Amel to a Lavender het Amel, all offspring will be at least Lavender, but some may be Lavender Amelanistic - AKA "Opal".


 Wow you this is extremely helpful...thank you so much!!:2thumb:


----------



## coolfool

*help identifying these corns and genes..*

okattee female and butter dad....these are a friend of mines trying to help them identify them and all the genes i no ther both het amel and stripe and poss lavander and the okatee must be het anery...i think ...

anery stripe amel stripe normal lavander and onelavender stripe and one i have no idea about any help on this one guys...









this is one we have no idea about..









amel stripe

i will add picts the rest soon.


----------



## cornmorphs

looks like a lav to me dude


----------



## coolfool

thanks.


----------



## My Serpentine Mind

Okay, not exactly a ____ x ____ = _____ but I would like to know...

How to make opals. I mean, like, if you bred Amel x Lavender, would you get snows 1st generation or 2nd generation, more likely. 

How could Amel x Lavender make normal looking snake that are het if they don't carry the A gene? (At least, Amels don't)


----------



## Ssthisto

My Serpentine Mind said:


> Okay, not exactly a ____ x ____ = _____ but I would like to know...
> 
> How to make opals. I mean, like, if you bred Amel x Lavender, would you get snows 1st generation or 2nd generation, more likely.
> 
> How could Amel x Lavender make normal looking snake that are het if they don't carry the A gene? (At least, Amels don't)


Each snake has multiple PAIRS of genes.

An Amel is *aa* on the Amel locus (gene pair), and *LL* (not-lavender, twice) on the Lavender locus.

A Lavender is *AA *(Not-amel, twice) on the Amel locus, and *ll* on the Lavender locus.

So if you cross *aa LL* to *AA ll *you'd get all *Aa Ll* - normals het for Amel and het for Lavender.

And you wouldn't get snows from Amel to Lavender (2nd Generation) anyway - you'd get Opals


----------



## My Serpentine Mind

That's what I meant. Would you get them 1st or 2nd generation?


----------



## Ssthisto

My Serpentine Mind said:


> That's what I meant. Would you get them 1st or 2nd generation?


You'd have a chance at opals in the second generation, barring hidden hets. 

If you got opals in the FIRST generation, it proves your Lavender was het Amel and your Amel was het Lavender.


----------



## My Serpentine Mind

Ssthisto said:


> You'd have a chance at opals in the second generation, barring hidden hets.
> 
> If you got opals in the FIRST generation, it proves your Lavender was het Amel and your Amel was het Lavender.


 So it's a good idea that, if I want opals, to purchase an Amel that is het Lavender and vice versa, so I don't have all that waiting to do? Sorry, this is getting off topic :bash:


----------



## Ssthisto

My Serpentine Mind said:


> So it's a good idea that, if I want opals, to purchase an Amel that is het Lavender and vice versa, so I don't have all that waiting to do? Sorry, this is getting off topic :bash:


That's it exactly. If you have a breeding goal, do your best to get as close to that goal as your budget will allow, which will give you a greater choice of "goal" offspring to choose your keepers from.

If you can afford one opal and one normal het opal, you have the same chance of producing opals as if you get an amel het lavender and a lavender het amel, for example - if the Amel / Lavender pair is cheaper, go for that!


----------



## thorn1007

what would be the best mate for my ultramel? im wanting to breed him but cant decide what to breed him with i know another amel will get the couloring but really want something different any suggestions


----------



## Ssthisto

Something that is heterozygous or homozygous for EITHER Amel or Ultra would be your only choice for getting visual non-normal offspring.

Now, you've got a few choices - for example, a snow would produce ultramels and amels, all het for Anery; a golddust would produce Ultras, Ultramels and Amels (good luck telling the first two apart) all het for Caramel .... an Opal Stripe would produce Ultramels and Amels, all het for Lavender Stripe ....


----------



## BISH9098

What about a miami and an okeetee? It makes sense what your saying about think of your end goal and work backwards!


----------



## Ssthisto

Miami plus Okeetee = Normal, with less grey background than the Miami, and less rich orange background than the Okeetee.

No hets, no morphs.


----------



## thorn1007

What will i get if i cross my ultramelwith a granit or ghost


----------



## Ssthisto

Ultramel to Granite:

Normals het Anery, Bloodred and EITHER Amel OR Ultra but you can't tell which.

Ultramel to Ghost:

Normals het Anery, Hypo and EITHER Amel OR Ultra but you can't tell which.


----------



## thorn1007

thanks


----------



## candycane

*what morph would i get ....*

i have a amelanistic female who has mated with my male normal ( caroliner )
many thanks


----------



## Ssthisto

The only for-definites you'll get is more normals who will all be het amelanistic.


----------



## candycane

what would be a good male to go with my female emelanistic and also female snow corn / and last but not least my female creamsickle 
many thanks


----------



## Ssthisto

candycane said:


> what would be a good male to go with my female emelanistic and also female snow corn / and last but not least my female creamsickle
> many thanks


Well, all three females are homozygous for the Amelanistic trait, so something that is one of the following:

Het for Amel (for normals and Amels - and in the case of the Creamsicle, Rootbeer and Creamsicle Ratsnakes)
Het for Ultra (for normals and Ultramels - and in the case of the creamsicle, Rootbeer and "Creamsicko" Ratsnakes)
Homozygous Amel (for Amels - and in the case of the Creamsicle, more Creamsicle Ratsnakes)
Homozygous Ultra (for Ultramels - and in the case of the Creamsickle, "Creamsicko" Ratsnakes)
Ultramel (For Amels and Ultramels - Creamsicle will produce Creamsicles and Creamsickos)

All of those will have visual results. If you cross anything that isn't covered by that list - and keep in mind that certain combos "count" in that list, like Butter, Opal, Snow, Golddust, etc), you'll get normals with various hets (or rootbeers with various hets).


----------



## candycane

Ssthisto said:


> Well, all three females are homozygous for the Amelanistic trait, so something that is one of the following:
> 
> Het for Amel (for normals and Amels - and in the case of the Creamsicle, Rootbeer and Creamsicle Ratsnakes)
> Het for Ultra (for normals and Ultramels - and in the case of the creamsicle, Rootbeer and "Creamsicko" Ratsnakes)
> Homozygous Amel (for Amels - and in the case of the Creamsicle, more Creamsicle Ratsnakes)
> Homozygous Ultra (for Ultramels - and in the case of the Creamsickle, "Creamsicko" Ratsnakes)
> Ultramel (For Amels and Ultramels - Creamsicle will produce Creamsicles and Creamsickos)
> 
> All of those will have visual results. If you cross anything that isn't covered by that list - and keep in mind that certain combos "count" in that list, like Butter, Opal, Snow, Golddust, etc), you'll get normals with various hets (or rootbeers with various hets).


how would i go about trying to get a amelanistic stripe from my female ?? 
what male would i need oh many thanks for last post : victory:


----------



## bothrops

candycane said:


> how would i go about trying to get a amelanistic stripe from my female ??
> what male would i need oh many thanks for last post : victory:


Unless your female is het for stripe there is no wa of 'getting a stripe' from your female.

The only way to create stripes is to breed to het stripes, a stripe to a het or two stripes.

You could put a stripe to your amel female to get normals 100% het amel and stripe. You would then need to breed the offspring together to get 1/16 amel stripes.


If you bred an amel stripe to her then you would get all amels 100% het stripe, which bred back to the male would give 50% amels and 50% amel stripes.


----------



## Ssthisto

You cant get Amel Stripes from any of the females you have, unless they are het for Stripe - you'd need at least one more generation.

The fastest way, of course, is to buy an Amel Stripe male, breed him to your Amel female, then get an unrelated Amel Stripe to breed to one of the babies from that. But if you're already buying two Amel Stripes, you might as well just breed them *together* and skip the extra generation AND all the "not amel stripe" babies


----------



## Graylord

Got some eggs due to hatch ,female is a striped amel and male is snow any ideas guys .

Cheers :2thumb:


----------



## bothrops

Graylord said:


> Got some eggs due to hatch ,female is a striped amel and male is snow any ideas guys .
> 
> Cheers :2thumb:


assuming parents are not het for anything else...


100% amels all of whom will be 100% het stripe and anery


Any anery's will tell you the female is het anery and any stripes will tell you the male is het stripe. If you get any odd motley like stripes the male could be het motley...: victory:


----------



## Ssthisto

bothrops said:


> Any anery's will tell you the female is het anery and any stripes will tell you the male is het stripe. If you get any odd motley like stripes the male could be het motley...: victory:


From Amel Stripe to Snow you wouldn't get any Anerythristics - but any *snows* would tell you the female is het Anery


----------



## bothrops

Ssthisto said:


> From Amel Stripe to Snow you wouldn't get any Anerythristics - but any *snows* would tell you the female is het Anery


I was drunk?....

..er...very tired?

....just testing?.....

...not concentrating?..

.....suffering from heat stroke.........???

:blush:

probably a combo of all of the above..but you are of course correct, you will not get any anery as all offsring will be AT LEAST amel...


----------



## Graylord

Thanks guys thats interesting ,trying to get to grips with how genetics work but i`m old and i think my hard drive is getting full .:whistling2:


----------



## Naughty2nice

I have eggs laid yesterday and was just wondering what morph they might be please. The mother is Amel and the father is pastel ghost - can anyone give me an idea please - many thanks in advance x


----------



## Ssthisto

You're only guaranteed to get *normals *who are het for Amel, Anery and Hypo.

Any other results would show that one or both parents are het for other traits - for example, if you got an amel baby, you know that your Pastel Ghost is het amel. If you got an Anery baby you know your Amel is het for Anery.


----------



## Naughty2nice

thank you :2thumb:


----------



## manda88

Sorry if this has been asked before, but what would I get if I paired a ghost motley to an anery motley?


----------



## bothrops

manda88 said:


> Sorry if this has been asked before, but what would I get if I paired a ghost motley to an anery motley?


100% anery motley het hypo


unless the anery motley turned out to be het hypo then you would get

50% anery motley het hypo 
50% ghost motley


Cheers

Andy


----------



## manda88

bothrops said:


> 100% anery motley het hypo
> 
> 
> unless the anery motley turned out to be het hypo then you would get
> 
> 50% anery motley het hypo
> 50% ghost motley
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andy


Sounds cool to me, thank you!


----------



## My Serpentine Mind

If I were to have these snakes:

Amel het anery
Amel het lav
Lav het amel
Lav het anery
Anery het lav
Anery het amel

What would be two more other good snakes to get? Just give me any two that can create a morph...and i will thank you very much


----------



## Ssthisto

I would add a pattern morph to one of the traits you've already got, so maybe:

Lavender het Motley and Amel
Amel Motley het Lavender


----------



## My Serpentine Mind

Ssthisto said:


> I would add a pattern morph to one of the traits you've already got, so maybe:
> 
> Lavender het Motley and Amel
> Amel Motley het Lavender


So it would give me...Opal motleys? I'm stuck :gasp: Whoops! :blush:


----------



## bloodcorn

My Serpentine Mind said:


> So it would give me...Opal motleys? I'm stuck :gasp: Whoops! :blush:


If you bred those 2 together this is theoretically what you would expect to see
and the chance per egg 

1 / 8 Motley het Lavender, Amel
1 / 8 Lavender het Motley, Amel
1 / 8 Amel het Lavender, Motley
1 / 8 Normal het Lavender, Motley, Amel
1 / 8 Lavender, Motley het Amel
1 / 8 Amel, Motley het Lavender
1 / 8 Opal ( Amel, Lavender ) het Motley
1 / 8 Opal, Motley ( Amel, Lavender, Motley )


----------



## My Serpentine Mind

bloodcorn said:


> If you bred those 2 together this is theoretically what you would expect to see
> and the chance per egg
> 
> 1 / 8 Motley het Lavender, Amel
> 1 / 8 Lavender het Motley, Amel
> 1 / 8 Amel het Lavender, Motley
> 1 / 8 Normal het Lavender, Motley, Amel
> 1 / 8 Lavender, Motley het Amel
> 1 / 8 Amel, Motley het Lavender
> 1 / 8 Opal ( Amel, Lavender ) het Motley
> 1 / 8 Opal, Motley ( Amel, Lavender, Motley )


Okay...so...by [insert morph here], Motley you mean that it's an Amel motley, or...I'm confused :/


----------



## bloodcorn

My Serpentine Mind said:


> Okay...so...by [insert morph here], Motley you mean that it's an Amel motley, or...I'm confused :/


If you bred an Amel Motley het Lavender to a Lavender het Amel Motley, those morphs are what you would expect the hatchlings to be :2thumb:


----------



## My Serpentine Mind

bloodcorn said:


> If you bred an Amel Motley het Lavender to a Lavender het Amel Motley, those morphs are what you would expect the hatchlings to be :2thumb:


I know, but like you said:

1/8 Opal, Motley 
Does that mean the opal is a motley?


----------



## bloodcorn

My Serpentine Mind said:


> I know, but like you said:
> 
> 1/8 Opal, Motley
> Does that mean the opal is a motley?


Yeah that's it


----------



## manda88

How about a sunkissed to an anery motley or a sunkissed to a ghost motley?


----------



## Ssthisto

Either way you'd get normals unless there are hets involved - neither of those sets of traits have definite "overlaps".


----------



## manda88

Here's another one, I've got a male ghost motley with unknown hets and two females, one is a granite 100% charcoal, 66% amel hypo, 50% lavender stripe, and the other is a bloodred ph 66% hypo cinder, what would I get if I bred these guys? Or if I bred the girls to an anery caramel motley?


----------



## Ssthisto

manda88 said:


> Here's another one, I've got a male ghost motley with unknown hets and two females, one is a granite 100% charcoal, 66% amel hypo, 50% lavender stripe, and the other is a bloodred ph 66% hypo cinder, what would I get if I bred these guys? Or if I bred the girls to an anery caramel motley?


Male ghost motley bred to Granite het charcoal, possible het amel, hypo, lavender and stripe:

You can guarantee you'd get Anerythristic het Hypo, Motley, Bloodred.
If you get any Anery motley babies, you know your granite is het Stripe. If you get any Ghosts you know your granite is het hypo. 

Ghost motley bred to Bloodred possible het Hypo and Cinder:
Normals het Anery, Hypo, Motley, Bloodred.
If you get any Hypos you've proven the bloodred het hypo.

If you bred the girls to the Anery caramel motley it'd work about the same way, other than not proving out the hypo hets.


----------



## candycane

hi not sure if in right thread but any way
i have a normal royal python 
what would be a good morph to mate with mine think mine is male 
not 100 percent but will find out 
just wanted to get nice clutch when he is ready well at least make start lol


----------



## Ssthisto

candycane said:


> hi not sure if in right thread but any way
> i have a normal royal python
> what would be a good morph to mate with mine think mine is male
> not 100 percent but will find out
> just wanted to get nice clutch when he is ready well at least make start lol


Since your royal isn't a corn snake, there probably isn't a best corn snake morph to try to mate him to.

If you are wanting to produce morph babies in the *first* generation, you would need to buy a royal python who is a dominant or codominant morph - you've got a lot of options, including dominants like pinstripe and codominants like lesser, mojave, fire, pastel....


----------



## candycane

Ssthisto said:


> Since your royal isn't a corn snake, there probably isn't a best corn snake morph to try to mate him to.
> 
> If you are wanting to produce morph babies in the *first* generation, you would need to buy a royal python who is a dominant or codominant morph - you've got a lot of options, including dominants like pinstripe and codominants like lesser, mojave, fire, pastel....


lol thanks for the reply like the corn bit lol cheers:2thumb:


----------



## Tolbia

well heres one for you

amel het okeetee (likely het for something else) and normal het unknown 

thanks!


----------



## eeji

Tolbia said:


> well heres one for you
> 
> amel het okeetee (likely het for something else) and normal het unknown
> 
> thanks!


corns can't be het okeetee because thats a normal locality phase, so........

amel x normal = all normal het amel


----------



## Tolbia

eeji said:


> corns can't be het okeetee because thats a normal locality phase, so........
> 
> amel x normal = all normal het amel


ahh I see. sorry I don't know anything about morphs and such

thankyou!


----------



## My Serpentine Mind

Okay:

Amel het motley, lav x Lavender motley het amel? :no1:


----------



## bothrops

My Serpentine Mind said:


> Okay:
> 
> Amel het motley, lav x Lavender motley het amel? :no1:


50% amel
50% not amel (but 100% het amel)

50% motley
50% not motley (but 100% het motley)

50% lavender
50% not lavender (but 100% het lav)

Combine the percentages:



12.5% amel not motley not lav
12.5% motley not amel not lav
12.5% amel motley not lav
12.5% not amel, not motley not lav
12.5% amel not motley lav 
12.5% motley not amel lav
12.5% amel motley lav
12.5% not amel, not motley lav


and simplify...

12.5% normal
12.5% amel
12.5% motley
12.5% lav
12.5% amel motley
12.5% amel lavender (opal)
12.5% lavender motley
12.5% amel motley lavender (motley opal)

(all non visual animals will be 100% het for the morphs that they do not express)

: victory:


----------



## My Serpentine Mind

bothrops said:


> 50% amel
> 50% not amel (but 100% het amel)
> 
> 50% motley
> 50% not motley (but 100% het motley)
> 
> 50% lavender
> 50% not lavender (but 100% het lav)
> 
> Combine the percentages:
> 
> 
> 
> 12.5% amel not motley not lav
> 12.5% motley not amel not lav
> 12.5% amel motley not lav
> 12.5% not amel, not motley not lav
> 12.5% amel not motley lav
> 12.5% motley not amel lav
> 12.5% amel motley lav
> 12.5% not amel, not motley lav
> 
> 
> and simplify...
> 
> 12.5% normal
> 12.5% amel
> 12.5% motley
> 12.5% lav
> 12.5% amel motley
> 12.5% amel lavender (opal)
> 12.5% lavender motley
> 12.5% amel motley lavender (motley opal)
> 
> (all non visual animals will be 100% het for the morphs that they do not express)
> 
> : victory:


Lolz a bit confusing but I get it


----------



## manda88

manda88 said:


> Here's another one, I've got a male ghost motley with unknown hets and two females, one is a granite 100% charcoal, 66% amel hypo, 50% lavender stripe, and the other is a bloodred ph 66% hypo cinder, what would I get if I bred these guys? Or if I bred the girls to an anery caramel motley?


^^ This again, but change the anery caramel motley to a lavender ph hypo amel stripe anery?


----------



## TheMonk

Amel Stripe x Amel poss het caramel/stripe?


----------



## eeji

if the ph stripe proves: 50% amel het stripe, 50% amel stripe

if it doesn't: 100% amel het stripe

either way all will be 50% possible het caramel too


----------



## TheMonk

eeji said:


> if the ph stripe proves: 50% amel het stripe, 50% amel stripe
> 
> if it doesn't: 100% amel het stripe
> 
> either way all will be 50% possible het caramel too


Thanks


----------



## Ant and Soph

bloodred no hets x blizzard no hets? Cant even remember if the blizzards no hets but think it is. Im no good with genetics at all yet and the diffused gene baffles me even more lol


----------



## cornmorphs

ant and soph said:


> bloodred no hets x blizzard no hets? Cant even remember if the blizzards no hets but think it is. Im no good with genetics at all yet and the diffused gene baffles me even more lol


no known hets on that ant


----------



## eeji

Ant and Soph said:


> bloodred no hets x blizzard no hets? Cant even remember if the blizzards no hets but think it is. Im no good with genetics at all yet and the diffused gene baffles me even more lol





cornmorphs said:


> no known hets on that ant


all normal het diffused, amel, charcoal


----------



## Ant and Soph

cornmorphs said:


> no known hets on that ant


Cheers mate



eeji said:


> all normal het diffused, amel, charcoal


Cheers, just out of curiousity what would breeding a striped amel to a bloodred produce? I really dont quite get genetics at all yet lol. Cant really find anywhere to learn it on the net either


----------



## eeji

that would give all normal het diffused, amel, stripe


----------



## Ant and Soph

eeji said:


> that would give all normal het diffused, amel, stripe


So how do people get these amel bloodreds? Or striped bloods? Sorry I feel like im well wasting your time now so while im at it, could anyone point me to a site that explains how to learn all this in a bit of depth, I cant find any good sources


----------



## Ssthisto

Ant and Soph said:


> So how do people get these amel bloodreds? Or striped bloods? Sorry I feel like im well wasting your time now so while im at it, could anyone point me to a site that explains how to learn all this in a bit of depth, I cant find any good sources


To get multiple-recessive-morph offspring, you'd have to breed your normals het striped and bloodred (or amel and bloodred, or amel and charcoal) together and hope for the 1 in 16 chance. 

Have you read the "Questions about genetics you were afraid to ask" thread in this forum?


----------



## madaboutreptiles

Ant and Soph said:


> So how do people get these amel bloodreds? Or striped bloods? Sorry I feel like im well wasting your time now so while im at it, could anyone point me to a site that explains how to learn all this in a bit of depth, I cant find any good sources



The Corn Calculator - Corn snake genetics prediction

this is a good one to play around with :no1:


----------



## Ant and Soph

Ssthisto said:


> To get multiple-recessive-morph offspring, you'd have to breed your normals het striped and bloodred (or amel and bloodred, or amel and charcoal) together and hope for the 1 in 16 chance.
> 
> Have you read the "Questions about genetics you were afraid to ask" thread in this forum?


Nope but I will be taking a look now, Got an ever so slight understanding of it but hardly at all, I get that the allelles need to have a 2 recessives and to the morph gene for them to take visual effect, and that a dominant gene with a recessive will cancel out the recessive of the morph in question but thats all the info I could find to be honest. had no idea the Normal-het (morph) actually played a particularly large role


----------



## Ssthisto

Ant and Soph said:


> Nope but I will be taking a look now, Got an ever so slight understanding of it but hardly at all, I get that the allelles need to have a 2 recessives and to the morph gene for them to take visual effect, and that a dominant gene with a recessive will cancel out the recessive of the morph in question but thats all the info I could find to be honest. had no idea the Normal-het (morph) actually played a particularly large role


Basically, yes.

Ok, imagine I have two blue marbles, and you have two blue striped marbles. If we each give a marble to someone else, what marbles does that person have? (one blue and one blue striped).

Now, if two people who each have one blue and one blue striped marble give a RANDOM marble to another person... what are the chances the fifth person gets two blue marbles, one of each type of marble, or two striped ones?

That's what genetics calculations boil down to - combinations of marbles and working out the chances of any given offspring getting a specific combination. 

For each genetic trait you tend to add a different colour of marbles AND another pair of marbles (although there are exceptions).


----------



## Ant and Soph

Ssthisto said:


> Basically, yes.
> 
> Ok, imagine I have two blue marbles, and you have two blue striped marbles. If we each give a marble to someone else, what marbles does that person have? (one blue and one blue striped).
> 
> Now, if two people who each have one blue and one blue striped marble give a RANDOM marble to another person... what are the chances the fifth person gets two blue marbles, one of each type of marble, or two striped ones?
> 
> That's what genetics calculations boil down to - combinations of marbles and working out the chances of any given offspring getting a specific combination.
> 
> For each genetic trait you tend to add a different colour of marbles AND another pair of marbles (although there are exceptions).


Think im getting it a bit better now, bloodred x amel leaves me a 1/4 chance of all outcomes.. so the reason it is a 1/16 over the chances of producing a striped amel blood (from the ocrrect pairing) is due to not just the count of outcomes but the count of recessives, doms etc involved in the genus of the pairing in question? sorry if im getting this all wrong by the way, I had some more allelle based Q's for you but left them in your sticky as they seem to fit that thread more


----------



## manda88

Back again! How about if I pair a male lavender ph hypo amel stripe anery to a granite 100% charcoal, 66% amel hypo, 50% lavender stripe, and a bloodred ph 66% hypo cinder?


----------



## TheMonk

What would be the outcome of..

Amel Stripe x Lavender Stripe het Hypo and Amel?


----------



## Ssthisto

TheMonk said:


> What would be the outcome of..
> 
> Amel Stripe x Lavender Stripe het Hypo and Amel?


Well, all of the offspring will be stripes, because both parents are striped, and stripe is a recessive gene.

All of the offspring will be at least het for amel (because one parent is homozygous amel) and some of the offspring may also be homozygous amel.

All of the offspring will be het for lavender, because one parent is homozygous lavender.

They all have a CHANCE to inherit hypo, but hypo isn't guaranteed.

So you're expecting:

Normal stripe het Amel Lavender possible het Hypo
Amel stripe het Lavender possible het Hypo


----------



## TheMonk

Ssthisto said:


> Well, all of the offspring will be stripes, because both parents are striped, and stripe is a recessive gene.
> 
> All of the offspring will be at least het for amel (because one parent is homozygous amel) and some of the offspring may also be homozygous amel.
> 
> All of the offspring will be het for lavender, because one parent is homozygous lavender.
> 
> They all have a CHANCE to inherit hypo, but hypo isn't guaranteed.
> 
> So you're expecting:
> 
> Normal stripe het Amel Lavender possible het Hypo
> Amel stripe het Lavender possible het Hypo


Thanks Muchly


----------



## bothrops

Ant and Soph said:


> Think im getting it a bit better now, bloodred x amel leaves me a 1/4 chance of all outcomes.. so the reason it is a 1/16 over the chances of producing a striped amel blood (from the ocrrect pairing) is due to not just the count of outcomes but the count of recessives, doms etc involved in the genus of the pairing in question? sorry if im getting this all wrong by the way, I had some more allelle based Q's for you but left them in your sticky as they seem to fit that thread more


Nope. Bloodred x amel gives 100% normal het blood het amel

breeding normal het blood amel to normal het blood amel gives

9/16 normal (66% poss het blood and amel)
3/16 amel (66% poss het blood)
3/16 blood (66% poss het amel)
*1/16 amel blood*




manda88 said:


> Back again! How about if I pair a male lavender ph hypo amel stripe anery to a granite 100% charcoal, 66% amel hypo, 50% lavender stripe, and a bloodred ph 66% hypo cinder?


 
The trouble with these sorts of calculations is that they involved so many 'possible hets' that to try and give you all the possible combinations would take hours. This is why it helps to have a good understanding of genetics before you consider breeding such combinations.

I'll just gve you an idea of what you are asking.....



lav ph hypo amel stripe anery

This animal could be any of the following

lavender no hets
lav het hypo
lav het amel 
lav het stripe
lav het anery
lav het hypo amel
lav het hypo stripe
lav het hypo anery
lav het amel stripe
lav het amel anery
lav het stripe anery
lav het hypo amel stripe
lav het hypo amel anery
lav het amel stripe anery
lav het hypo amel stripe anery.....


So there are 15 possible genetics that your male could have. As one female has 3 genetic mutations also the other has SEVEN different mutations each we can expect a huge number of possible combos. Notwithstanding known hets a quick approximation of possible combos gives (15 x 21 + 15 x 6 = *405 possible combinations!*)


As you can see nobody is about to work out all the possible outcomes for those pairings.


In fact, even if I owned them and did the pairings myself (I wouldn't as I'd specifically prove out the hets with some well thought out test crosses rather than just bung multi hets together in a hit and hope style!) I wouldn't work out the possibilities.

What I would do is wait until the litter was out and desperately try to identify the offspring (and hope that they would inform about the parents!)




I think a bit of genetics reading would be better than a list of possible outccomes for you to enable you to make more informed decisions about your future breedings.: victory:


----------



## manda88

bothrops said:


> The trouble with these sorts of calculations is that they involved so many 'possible hets' that to try and give you all the possible combinations would take hours. This is why it helps to have a good understanding of genetics before you consider breeding such combinations.
> 
> I'll just gve you an idea of what you are asking.....
> 
> 
> 
> lav ph hypo amel stripe anery
> 
> This animal could be any of the following
> 
> lavender no hets
> lav het hypo
> lav het amel
> lav het stripe
> lav het anery
> lav het hypo amel
> lav het hypo stripe
> lav het hypo anery
> lav het amel stripe
> lav het amel anery
> lav het stripe anery
> lav het hypo amel stripe
> lav het hypo amel anery
> lav het amel stripe anery
> lav het hypo amel stripe anery.....
> 
> 
> So there are 15 possible genetics that your male could have. As one female has 3 genetic mutations also the other has SEVEN different mutations each we can expect a huge number of possible combos. Notwithstanding known hets a quick approximation of possible combos gives (15 x 21 + 15 x 6 = *405 possible combinations!*)
> 
> 
> As you can see nobody is about to work out all the possible outcomes for those pairings.
> 
> 
> In fact, even if I owned them and did the pairings myself (I wouldn't as I'd specifically prove out the hets with some well thought out test crosses rather than just bung multi hets together in a hit and hope style!) I wouldn't work out the possibilities.
> 
> What I would do is wait until the litter was out and desperately try to identify the offspring (and hope that they would inform about the parents!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think a bit of genetics reading would be better than a list of possible outccomes for you to enable you to make more informed decisions about your future breedings.: victory:


Good lord, haha, that's a lot of possibilities! I only ask out of pure curiosity, they're all hatchlings at the moment so obviously won't be breeding them for another few years and until I have the space and time to do so. Thank you for coming back to me!


----------



## manda88

This might be a bit of a silly question, but what would I need to make caramel stripe babies using an anery caramel motley male, and a female that isn't visually a caramel? Is this possible?


----------



## Ssthisto

Your female would have to be heterozygous caramel and at least heterozygous stripe; you'd hopefully get some caramel motley-het-stripe babies in the first generation, and those would need to be bred back to a caramel-and-stripe carrier to produce Caramel Stripes.


----------



## manda88

Ssthisto said:


> Your female would have to be heterozygous caramel and at least heterozygous stripe; you'd hopefully get some caramel motley-het-stripe babies in the first generation, and those would need to be bred back to a caramel-and-stripe carrier to produce Caramel Stripes.


Cool, thank you!


----------



## baggylettuce

What could the possibilities be with a male - amelanistic abberant motley stripe with the following females:
1. ghost
2. snow
3. reverse oaketee*
*


----------



## Ssthisto

Amel Motley to Ghost = Normals het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Motley.
Amel Motley to Snow = Amels het Anery Motley.
Amel Motley to Amel (Reverse Okeetee is a selectively bred amel) = Amel het Motley (some of which might show wider white borders than usual)


----------



## baggylettuce

Ssthisto said:


> Amel Motley to Ghost = Normals het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Motley.
> Amel Motley to Snow = Amels het Anery Motley.
> Amel Motley to Amel (Reverse Okeetee is a selectively bred amel) = Amel het Motley (some of which might show wider white borders than usual)


ok thanks, was thinking of trying to breed next year so wondered what mix id get


----------



## kumqat

Am looking to purchase a butter stripe hatchling off a forum member, the hatchling comes from a butter stripe to butter het stripe. However the offspring of this pairing are butters, butter motleys and butter stripes. My limited knowledge of genetics leads me to believe there should be no motleys from this pairing, am i correct in assuming this.:blush: Could someone explain how this is possible thanks.:2thumb:


----------



## Ssthisto

kumqat said:


> Am looking to purchase a butter stripe hatchling off a forum member, the hatchling comes from a butter stripe to butter het stripe. However the offspring of this pairing are butters, butter motleys and butter stripes. My limited knowledge of genetics leads me to believe there should be no motleys from this pairing, am i correct in assuming this.:blush: Could someone explain how this is possible thanks.:2thumb:


You're completely right, there should be no motleys.

I am betting that either:

1. The Butter Stripe is actually a Butter stripey Motley-het-Stripe (resulting in motley, stripe and normal-blotched offspring)
2. The "Motleys" in the clutch have been misidentified - they may be Cubed Stripes.

If the hatchling you're getting is a Butter Stripe - a definite stripe - it shouldn't make any difference; what you see is what you get.


----------



## kumqat

Thanks for the reply here are some pics of mum and a selection of the hatchlings( hope the seller doesn't mind me posting his pics :blush I am only wondering how it is possible to get these hatcnlings from the parents mentioned.


----------



## Ssthisto

The stripes look like cubed-stripes, rather than Motleys - and yes, mum looks like a Butter Stripe, not a motley-het-stripe.


----------



## kumqat

So if you were to breed the " cubed stripes" back would you then get a mixture of cubed stripes and stripes.


----------



## eeji

Ssthisto said:


> The stripes look like cubed-stripes, rather than Motleys - and yes, mum looks like a Butter Stripe, not a motley-het-stripe.


agreed


----------



## manda88

Anery caramel motley x amel stripe het caramel, anyone?


----------



## Ssthisto

manda88 said:


> Anery caramel motley x amel stripe het caramel, anyone?


Motley-het-Stripe, Caramel, Anery and Amel
Caramel Motley-het-Stripe, Anery and Amel.

In about equal proportions.


----------



## manda88

Ssthisto said:


> Motley-het-Stripe, Caramel, Anery and Amel
> Caramel Motley-het-Stripe, Anery and Amel.
> 
> In about equal proportions.


Thank you! If I bred these back to each other at all, would I get the possibility of caramel stripes?


----------



## Ssthisto

Yes, you'd have a 1-in-4 chance of getting a Caramel Stripe if you bred two Caramel Motley-het-Stripe together. The het Anery and Amel might mean you got Anery-Caramel Stripes, Butter Stripes or Citrine Stripes.


----------



## manda88

Ssthisto said:


> Yes, you'd have a 1-in-4 chance of getting a Caramel Stripe if you bred two Caramel Motley-het-Stripe together. The het Anery and Amel might mean you got Anery-Caramel Stripes, Butter Stripes or Citrine Stripes.


I wish I knew my morphs and hets like you do, I find it sooo hard to understand! I've got the jist of the punnet box or whatever it's called, but I have no idea about the Nn Aa things, cos I wouldn't know how to write them if they were things like anery caramel stripe! Hopefully by the time it gets to breeding them, I'll understand. I don't really want to start breeding them until I really know what I'm on about, so I have at least 3 years to learn!
Can you breed offspring back to parents? Or can you only breed siblings? I know you shouldn't breed more than 3 generations or something, but if I could help it I wouldn't really want to breed any relations together cos it grosses me out :lol2:


----------



## Ssthisto

manda88 said:


> I wish I knew my morphs and hets like you do, I find it sooo hard to understand! I've got the jist of the punnet box or whatever it's called, but I have no idea about the Nn Aa things, cos I wouldn't know how to write them if they were things like anery caramel stripe! Hopefully by the time it gets to breeding them, I'll understand. I don't really want to start breeding them until I really know what I'm on about, so I have at least 3 years to learn!
> Can you breed offspring back to parents? Or can you only breed siblings? I know you shouldn't breed more than 3 generations or something, but if I could help it I wouldn't really want to breed any relations together cos it grosses me out :lol2:


It all just takes time to learn - and at the heart of it, it's as simple as "If I have two chocolate cookies and my partner has two vanilla cookies, and we each give one cookie to our child, what cookies does the child have?" 

Yes, you can breed offspring back to parents, it's still linebreeding/inbreeding, and if you can find animals that are unrelated and provide the genetic input you want (say you found a butter stripe that's unrelated to your Caramel Motley het Stripe) it may have better results if you breed those unrelated animals.


----------



## manda88

Ssthisto said:


> It all just takes time to learn - and at the heart of it, it's as simple as "If I have two chocolate cookies and my partner has two vanilla cookies, and we each give one cookie to our child, what cookies does the child have?"
> 
> Yes, you can breed offspring back to parents, it's still linebreeding/inbreeding, and if you can find animals that are unrelated and provide the genetic input you want (say you found a butter stripe that's unrelated to your Caramel Motley het Stripe) it may have better results if you breed those unrelated animals.


I'm going to try and keep to breeding unrelated animals, I'll have 6 corns by the time it gets to breeding them, and then obviously they'll be producing babies that'll all be unrelated, so hopefully there'll be a few that I can pair up and so on. I will only breed them back to each other if there's a certain morph I'm after, ie the caramel stripe! You can only breed back three generations, can't you? What exactly does that mean? Sorry for all my questions!!


----------



## Ssthisto

manda88 said:


> I'm going to try and keep to breeding unrelated animals, I'll have 6 corns by the time it gets to breeding them, and then obviously they'll be producing babies that'll all be unrelated, so hopefully there'll be a few that I can pair up and so on. I will only breed them back to each other if there's a certain morph I'm after, ie the caramel stripe! You can only breed back three generations, can't you? What exactly does that mean? Sorry for all my questions!!


Three generations is an arbitrary number - there's no absolute.

If you are producing nothing but healthy, strong, willing feeder offspring in the 6th generation, then there's no reason you can't breed related animals for the seventh generation.

If you produce deformed or unfit offspring (knowing it's not an incubation issue) in the FIRST generation of breeding, then I don't think you should breed that unrelated pair again, to themselves *or *anything else.


----------



## manda88

Ssthisto said:


> Three generations is an arbitrary number - there's no absolute.
> 
> If you are producing nothing but healthy, strong, willing feeder offspring in the 6th generation, then there's no reason you can't breed related animals for the seventh generation.
> 
> If you produce deformed or unfit offspring (knowing it's not an incubation issue) in the FIRST generation of breeding, then I don't think you should breed that unrelated pair again, to themselves *or *anything else.


Yeah definitely, well only time will tell, hopefully in a few years time I'll be posting up pics of some healthy little hatchlings!
Thank you for answering all my questions


----------



## Paul Dunham

*Mutations damaging to conservation?*

I was just wondering whether any of you guys have given any thought at all to the possible damage all these mutations are causing to conservation due to the captive population being so rife with mutations and hybrids? Are they now useless if they were ever needed to save a species from extinction? Do you feel there's a need to keep mutations etc separate from the original gene pool to maintain their wild boodline?

It seems to me breeders cannot justify keeping many exotic animals in captivity on the basis of conservation because the original gene pool is always destroyed by breeders desire to be the first to breed yet a new colour morph.


----------



## vetdebbie

Paul Dunham said:


> I was just wondering whether any of you guys have given any thought at all to the possible damage all these mutations are causing to conservation due to the captive population being so rife with mutations and hybrids? Are they now useless if they were ever needed to save a species from extinction? Do you feel there's a need to keep mutations etc separate from the original gene pool to maintain their wild boodline?
> 
> It seems to me breeders cannot justify keeping many exotic animals in captivity on the basis of conservation because the original gene pool is always destroyed by breeders desire to be the first to breed yet a new colour morph.


Captive bred animals are, by definition, separate from the original gene pool, as the original gene pool is wild and the captive one is, well, captive. So breeding for colour mutations in the captive population is irrelevant to the wild population. Particularly in a species such as the corn snake which is not endangered in it's natural habitat, and in fact is a species in which several of the colour mutations bred for have actually arisen in the wild population. And hybrids of the various North American ratsnakes again arise in nature, but hybridisation is yet another, very separate area of discussion.

Breeding for conservation is a different thing with very different aims. May be your comments would be better debated on a thread about crested gecko genetics?


----------



## Ssthisto

Paul Dunham said:


> I was just wondering whether any of you guys have given any thought at all to the possible damage all these mutations are causing to conservation due to the captive population being so rife with mutations and hybrids? Are they now useless if they were ever needed to save a species from extinction? Do you feel there's a need to keep mutations etc separate from the original gene pool to maintain their wild boodline?


I don't think anyone can argue that people who are keeping corn snakes *as pets* are keeping a "captive ark" to preserve the species.

These pet corn snakes are *already* separate from the original (wild!) gene pool, particularly the ones over here in the UK!


----------



## eeji

Paul Dunham said:


> I was just wondering whether any of you guys have given any thought at all to the possible damage all these mutations are causing to conservation due to the captive population being so rife with mutations and hybrids? Are they now useless if they were ever needed to save a species from extinction? Do you feel there's a need to keep mutations etc separate from the original gene pool to maintain their wild boodline?
> 
> It seems to me breeders cannot justify keeping many exotic animals in captivity on the basis of conservation because the original gene pool is always destroyed by breeders desire to be the first to breed yet a new colour morph.


99.9% of breeders who breed morphs have never claimed that they keep them on the basis of conservation, so this point is not valid. You will also find that the average hobby breeder who does not breed morphs does not claim it is on the basis of conservation.

I would like you to explain your thinking of _why_ there is even a possibility of damage to conservation by breeding morphs?


----------



## Scree

Nice post,

Ok so if i bred my Male Hypo Motley Lavender with a female Ghost (no known hets) what could i expect to hatch?

Also, if i put that same Lav male on a Amel Stripe would it be poss to get Lav stripe?


----------



## vetdebbie

Hypo Lav motley to Ghost = hypos het anery lavender motley

Hypo Lav motley to amel stripe = motleys (genetically motley / stripe) het hypo lav amel UNLESS the male is genetically already motley / stripe in which case you would get 50% motleys (motley/stripe) and 50% stripes, het as before. Breeding the offspring together could produce lav stripes, amongst many other combinations.


----------



## manda88

If you were to breed a granite to a bloodred, would you potentially produce more bloodreds, as granite is a combination of anery and bloodred?


----------



## doogle

manda88 said:


> If you were to breed a granite to a bloodred, would you potentially produce more bloodreds, as granite is a combination of anery and bloodred?


Hi Manda, Yeah you would get Bloodreds het Anery!

In less you buy my granite and produce more granites! : victory: LOL


----------



## Squeakymel

I have a female bloodred het lavender, a male lavender het bloodred and im hopefully gonna get a hypo bloodred het lav. Which would be the best one to put it with so i know what sex to get...?


----------



## doogle

Squeakymel said:


> I have a female bloodred het lavender, a male lavender het bloodred and im hopefully gonna get a hypo bloodred het lav. Which would be the best one to put it with so i know what sex to get...?


If you get a hypo bloodred het lavender and put it to either of those then you wont produce hypo bloodreds or hypo plasmas inless any of yours are het hypo! you would get bloodred het hypo or plasma het hypo! Best to get a pair of hypo bloodreds het lavender as well! : victory:


----------



## bothrops

Squeakymel said:


> I have a female bloodred het lavender, a male lavender het bloodred and im hopefully gonna get a hypo bloodred het lav. Which would be the best one to put it with so i know what sex to get...?


I'd get a female hypo bloodred het lav:


lavender het blood x hypo bloodred het lav 


25% plasma (lav blood)
25% lav het blood
25% blood het lav
25% normal het lav blood


all 50% poss het hypo

however:

blood het lav x hypo bloodred het lav

75% bloodred 66% poss het lav 50% poss het hypo
25% plasma 50% poss het hypo


Cheers

Andy


----------



## Squeakymel

Thanks, im thinking of getting a hypo het lav and bloodred aswell


----------



## manda88

doogle said:


> Hi Manda, Yeah you would get Bloodreds het Anery!
> 
> In less you buy my granite and produce more granites! : victory: LOL


Stop trying to get me to buy your snakes! :lol2: I would if I was allowed!


----------



## Scree

vetdebbie said:


> Hypo Lav motley to Ghost = hypos het anery lavender motley
> 
> Hypo Lav motley to amel stripe = motleys (genetically motley / stripe) het hypo lav amel UNLESS the male is genetically already motley / stripe in which case you would get 50% motleys (motley/stripe) and 50% stripes, het as before. Breeding the offspring together could produce lav stripes, amongst many other combinations.


Thanks Deb,

there is a pos that the motley lav is het stripe himself, i think. Thats one pairing i cant wait to start


----------



## Paul Dunham

vetdebbie said:


> Captive bred animals are, by definition, separate from the original gene pool, as the original gene pool is wild and the captive one is, well, captive. So breeding for colour mutations in the captive population is irrelevant to the wild population. Particularly in a species such as the corn snake which is not endangered in it's natural habitat, and in fact is a species in which several of the colour mutations bred for have actually arisen in the wild population. And hybrids of the various North American ratsnakes again arise in nature, but hybridisation is yet another, very separate area of discussion.
> 
> Breeding for conservation is a different thing with very different aims. May be your comments would be better debated on a thread about crested gecko genetics?


I am very aware many animal keepers have no interest or even consider conservation issues when entering their chosen area of animal husbandry. I’m also aware that once a species has been taken into captivity it is then diverted away from it’s original evolutionary path in a completely different direction. The problem being in a world where species are becoming extinct in record numbers, the ones which remain in captivity are becoming useless for any conservation purpose due to hybridisation and colour mutations. It’s very easy for keepers to point at common species such as corn snakes and say we’re not doing any damage because corn snakes aren’t threatened in the wild at all. But the fact of the matter is keepers do destroy the gene pool of every species they come into contact with including species which are close to extinction. This is not irrelevant.

I completely understand why this is happening. Most keepers are usually unaware of the damage of these breeding practices or some simply don’t care.
I used to find it a great pleasure visiting many collections with the diversity of species which were once kept. But today you find collection after collection filled with mutations of the same species. It’s a shame because there are almost no keepers which try to maintain the original gene pool for conservation purposes.

Zoo’s and conservation projects neither have the time, money or space to accommodate many of the smaller lesser known species. Perhaps the private animal enthusiast has a part to play?


----------



## Tolbia

How about

amel het motley and ghost het motley and amel

thankyou!

oh and what would i breed together to get blizzards? I have heard an amel and a anery B would produced blizzards but i am not sure


----------



## Ssthisto

Tolbia said:


> How about
> 
> amel het motley and ghost het motley and amel


Well, you can get:

Normals het Amel, Anery and Hypo, possible het Motley
Amels het Anery and Hypo, possible het Motley
Motleys het Amel, Anery and Hypo
Amel Motleys het Anery and Hypo



> oh and what would i breed together to get blizzards? I have heard an amel and a anery B would produced blizzards but i am not sure


Not quite right - you need both Amel and Charcoal (AKA Anery B) in the same animal to be a blizzard, but you wouldn't get it in the first generation cross between Amel and Charcoal.

To get blizzards both parents have to be at least het Amel and at least het Charcoal. That could be:

Het amel, het charcoal X het amel, het charcoal
Het amel, het charcoal X amel het charcoal
Het amel, het charcoal X charcoal het amel
Het amel, het charcoal X Blizzard
Amel het charcoal X Amel het charcoal
Amel het charcoal X Charcoal het Amel
Amel het charcoal X Blizzard
Charcoal het Amel X Charcoal het Amel
Charcoal het Amel X Blizzard
And, of course,
Blizzard X Blizzard.


----------



## Tolbia

Ssthisto said:


> Well, you can get:
> 
> Normals het Amel, Anery and Hypo, possible het Motley
> Amels het Anery and Hypo, possible het Motley
> Motleys het Amel, Anery and Hypo
> Amel Motleys het Anery and Hypo
> 
> 
> Not quite right - you need both Amel and Charcoal (AKA Anery B) in the same animal to be a blizzard, but you wouldn't get it in the first generation cross between Amel and Charcoal.
> 
> To get blizzards both parents have to be at least het Amel and at least het Charcoal. That could be:
> 
> Het amel, het charcoal X het amel, het charcoal
> Het amel, het charcoal X amel het charcoal
> Het amel, het charcoal X charcoal het amel
> Het amel, het charcoal X Blizzard
> Amel het charcoal X Amel het charcoal
> Amel het charcoal X Charcoal het Amel
> Amel het charcoal X Blizzard
> Charcoal het Amel X Charcoal het Amel
> Charcoal het Amel X Blizzard
> And, of course,
> Blizzard X Blizzard.


thankyou so much! this is really helpful! <3


----------



## wiccanrockess

Hey there

i have a male ghost and a female that is anery x snow. what would i get please.


----------



## Ssthisto

wiccanrockess said:


> Hey there
> 
> i have a male ghost and a female that is anery x snow. what would i get please.


Well, Ghost is Anery + Hypo.
Your female, I'm guessing, is grey and black and might have yellow 'racing stripes' down her neck. That'd mean she's Anery het for Amel.

Anery X Anery = Anery.
Then you add in the hets - dad is hypo, so all the babies will be het hypo. 
Then you add in the possible hets - Mum is het amel, so all the babies are POSSIBLE het Amel.

That gets you *Anery het Hypo poss. het Amel*.


----------



## C.Bruno

what is the outcome of...

Amber Het Amel x Normal?

Cheers


----------



## Ssthisto

Well, Amber is Hypo + Caramel.

Normal is nothing specific at all.

So your babies will be *Normal, het Hypo and Caramel, possible het Amel*.


----------



## C.Bruno

Ssthisto said:


> Well, Amber is Hypo + Caramel.
> 
> Normal is nothing specific at all.
> 
> So your babies will be *Normal, het Hypo and Caramel, possible het Amel*.


Normals that are het hypos??
Caramels
and they will all be Het Amel??

Is that right?


----------



## cornmorphs

they will all be as shown, all 100% het hypo and caramel, and 50% possible het amel, carried over from the amber het amel


----------



## wiccanrockess

Ssthisto said:


> Well, Ghost is Anery + Hypo.
> Your female, I'm guessing, is grey and black and might have yellow 'racing stripes' down her neck. That'd mean she's Anery het for Amel.
> 
> Anery X Anery = Anery.
> Then you add in the hets - dad is hypo, so all the babies will be het hypo.
> Then you add in the possible hets - Mum is het amel, so all the babies are POSSIBLE het Amel.
> 
> That gets you *Anery het Hypo poss. het Amel*.


Sorry, my fault. its not an anery x snow, its an amel x snow. just reread what i put.


----------



## C.Bruno

Hi 

what does Normal x Charcoal make cheers


----------



## eeji

C.Bruno said:


> Hi
> 
> what does Normal x Charcoal make cheers


100% normal het charcoal


----------



## GazP19

ok, heres what i've got what should i put with what

0.1 normal ?? hets
1.0 ghost
0.1 snow stripe
0.1 butter
1.1 bloodred het charcoal 

my lovely corns hehe
all advice welcome 

Gaz


----------



## bothrops

GazP19 said:


> ok, heres what i've got what should i put with what
> 
> 0.1 normal ?? hets
> 1.0 ghost
> 0.1 snow stripe
> 0.1 butter
> 1.1 bloodred het charcoal
> 
> my lovely corns hehe
> all advice welcome
> 
> Gaz


Firstly there is no 'you should put this' etc regardless of what you have. The point of breeding snakes (I would assume) would be to produce something you either really like or would like to sell?

As it turns out all your snakes carry different mutations. The only compatible point is that the ghost and the snow stripe are both homozyous anerytheristic.



This means that all of your potential combinations are going to give normals het for what ever the parents are, or (if you put the ghost and snow together) anerys het for the other bits.

(your butter and snow stripe are both homozygous amels but both being female doesn't help you much!)

If it was me, I'd put the bloodred het charcoal pair together for 75% bloodreds poss het charcoal 25% bloodred charcoal (AKA pewter)

I'd then put the normal with the ghost to try and see if it was het anery and the following year put it with the butter to see if it is het amel (the most likely possible hets)


Overall though, mostly you will be producing multi het normals!


----------



## C.Bruno

eeji said:


> 100% normal het charcoal


thanks..

also what sorta price do charcoals go for?


----------



## Kaouthia

NNY said:


> From what I know.. im breeding my male anery het snow to a snow.. because it means I will get amels, anerys and snows.. and maybe some ghosts as he could be het for ghost.. i think thats right and hope it helps in some tiny way Nat :lol:


You would get anery het snow and snow. You wouldn't get any amel as the offspring would inherit anery from both parents, so all of them would display this trait.

Edit : oops, page 157? That'll teach me to reply to a four year old post before looking at the date.


----------



## Chromisca

Yeah, but the thread is technically still current as people are still making posts on it (not just you my dear!). 



C.Bruno said:


> what sorta price do charcoals go for?


From what I've seen, not very expensive. Hard to find though... I've been looking for a pair het diffused for awhile now


----------



## bothrops

Chromisca said:


> Yeah, but the thread is technically still current as people are still making posts on it (not just you my dear!).
> 
> 
> From what I've seen, not very expensive. Hard to find though... I've been looking for a pair het diffused for awhile now


We got a charcoal het diffused from the Rodbaston IHS show last year. No doubt there will be plenty at the Kidderminster show in november!


----------



## Chromisca

Darn. Wish we could go, but it's a bit too far away from us. Well, there's always Doncaster in June...


----------



## Tolbia

hi! what would I need to produce lavenders, lavas, butters or ghosts? They don't need to be from the same clutch, I think that would be near impossible LOL

thank you!


----------



## bothrops

Tolbia said:


> hi! what would I need to produce lavenders, lavas, butters or ghosts? They don't need to be from the same clutch, I think that would be near impossible LOL
> 
> thank you!


Lavender and lava are 'base' morphs, so you'll need AT LEAST two 'het lavender' or 'het lava' parents. You can increase your odds by having one visual parent and a het (50% chance per egg of a visual) or of course by buying two visual parents (lavender x lavender = 100% lavender)


butters are amelanistic caramels.

You COULD produce a butter from two normals that are both het amel and caramel (1/16 chance), but you'd be better off putting a caramel het amel to an amel het caramel (therefore you'd have different coloured parents and four possible outcomes in their litter (normal, caramel, amel, butter)

(or you could go for butter x caramel het amel, butter x amel het caramel, butter x butter etc for more chances)



Ghosts are hypomelanistic anerys.

You COULD produce a ghost from two normals that are both het hypo and anery (1/16 chance), but you'd be better off putting a anery het hypo to a hypo het anery (therefore you'd have different coloured parents and four possible outcomes in their litter (normal, hypo, anery, ghost)

(or you could go for ghost x anery het hypo, ghost x hypo het anery, ghost x ghost etc for more chances)




Notice how the last two paragraphs are the same, it's just the morph names that change. The same can be done for ANY two recessive mutations.


Cheers

Andy


EDIT - there are a number of ways of getting all four morphs in the same litter, you could go for normals het for all six mutations (with rediculously low odds of some outcomes) crossed together, or you could go for an anery butter het hypo amel lavender x hypo opal (AKA hypo amel lavender) het caramel, anery, amel

or any other combo (provided there are not two visual examples of the same mutation on both sides as that will limit the outcome a little


----------



## wiccanrockess

wiccanrockess said:


> Sorry, my fault. its not an anery x snow, its an amel x snow. just reread what i put.


Could this be answered please. its a fem amel x snow and a male ghost. apart from any hidden hets they might have, what would the outcome be.
also the female amel x snow with a male Charcoal het ghost.
thank you


----------



## Ssthisto

wiccanrockess said:


> Could this be answered please. its a fem amel x snow and a male ghost. apart from any hidden hets they might have, what would the outcome be.
> also the female amel x snow with a male Charcoal het ghost.
> thank you


What *colour* is the "Amel X Snow" ?

I would expect that cross to produce Amels het Anery, in which case you'd get normals (het Amel, Anery, Hypo) and Anery (het Amel and Hypo).

And an amel het anery X Charcoal het Anery Hypo will produce mostly normals het amel and charcoal, poss het anery and hypo; you may get some anery het amel, charcoal, poss hypo.


----------



## Smiffy71

*Corns Morph Potential*

Hi There, what would be the most interesting pairings for the following corns please?

*Male*
Snow
Ghost
Blizzard
Anery Stripe

*Female*
Blizzard
Anerthrystic
Amel
Caramel Motley
Ghost Motley
Hypo Stripe het amel

cheers :2thumb:


----------



## Athravan

Smiffy71 said:


> Hi There, what would be the most interesting pairings for the following corns please?
> 
> *Male*
> Snow
> Ghost
> Blizzard
> Anery Stripe
> 
> *Female*
> Blizzard
> Anerthrystic
> Amel
> Caramel Motley
> Ghost Motley
> Hypo Stripe het amel
> 
> cheers :2thumb:


Personally I'd go for (female x male)

Blizzard x Blizzard = 100% blizzard wouldn't do anything else with this one!

Anerthrystic x Anery Stripe = Anery het Stripe or
Anerythistic x Ghost = Anery het hypo (ghost) or
Anerythistic x Snow = Anery het amel (snow)

Amel x Blizzard = Amel het Anery b (blizzard) or
Amel x Snow = Amel het Anery (snow) or
Amel x Anery Strie = Normals het for snow stripe.

Caramel Motley - I'd recommend getting another male carrying the caramel gene or you're stuck getting normals/motleys which is a bit of a waste, but if you don't have space for another male anything with amel in it will give you het butter motleys.

Ghost Motley x Anery Stripe = Anery motley het stripe/hypo (ghost) or
Ghost Motley x Ghost = Ghost het Motley

Hypo Stripe het amel x Anery Stripe = Normal stripes het for ghost, possible het amel or
Hypo Stripe het amel x Ghost = Hypo, het for Anery (ghost), stripe, possible het amel


----------



## Bakerton

Can I just ask which would be the best corn snake morphs to buy? I'm confused when it comes to them.

Would a male Amel stripe het Anery and hypo and a female Het amel anery and possible lavender be a good choice?

what would be the outcome of these?


----------



## bothrops

Bakerton said:


> Can I just ask which would be the best corn snake morphs to buy? I'm confused when it comes to them.
> 
> Would a male Amel stripe het Anery and hypo and a female Het amel anery and possible lavender be a good choice?
> 
> what would be the outcome of these?


A good choice is whatever colours/patterns you personally want to own! With literally hundreds of different combinations we couldn't possibly decide that for you!


choose the colours you like and your pets will always be awesome for you.

If you want interesting litters then the best tip is to buy animals that are 'het' for the mutations the other is visual for. So amel het anery and anery het amel would give you a red/orange snake and a black and white snake and would produced everything from normals to more anerys and amels and even snows! The same thing is true for all the other morphs and combos!


For the one you have picked...

Amel stripe het Anery and hypo and a female Het amel anery and possible lavender 

...firstly you can practically ignore the lavender. Until you put the animal to a visual or het lavender and produce lavenders (therefore proving out the lavender) all offspring will be 'possible hets from a possible het' and therefore can not be sold as anything to do with lavender!

Next you have het hypo on one side only this means that all offspring will only be '50% poss het hypo'

You only have stripe in one parent, but because this is visual stripe, all offspring will be 100% het stripe.

This leaves us with amel het anery x normal het amel and anery

this will give normals and amels plus a smaller amount of anerys and snows.

Therefore the above parents will effectively give a pretty standard (but beautiful nonetheless!) litter of normals, amels, anerys and snows that will all be het stripe poss het hypo



Breeding a pair of offspring back together though would give *possibilities* of

normals, hypos, amels, fires, anerys, ghosts, snows, corals, stripes, amel stripes, anery stripes, fire stripes, ghosts stripes, snow stripes, coral stripes

..there is also a (rediculously small) chance of any of the above with lavender thrown in...


----------



## Ssthisto

bothrops said:


> Breeding a pair of offspring back together though would give *possibilities* of
> 
> normals, hypos, amels, fires, anerys, ghosts, snows, corals, stripes, amel stripes, anery stripes, fire stripes, ghosts stripes, snow stripes, coral stripes


You wouldn't get Fire or Fire Stripe from this pairing, Bothrops - no Diffusion gene involved in the pairing. You might get "Hypo Amel" and "Hypo Amel Stripe" though.


----------



## bothrops

Ssthisto said:


> You wouldn't get Fire or Fire Stripe from this pairing, Bothrops - no Diffusion gene involved in the pairing. You might get "Hypo Amel" and "Hypo Amel Stripe" though.


Doh....that's two for two! First I thought platty daddy was just the name of the first lesser, now I decide that 'fire' is a hypo amel rather than a diffused amel......



....for shame.....:blush:


----------



## Xerse

Hi, i was wondering what you guru's think that an Anery Ghost x Lavender? the Lav could be poss stripe, not 100% sure on that though.

Any help would be great.

Thanks.

Xerse


----------



## doogle

Xerse said:


> Hi, i was wondering what you guru's think that an Anery Ghost x Lavender? the Lav could be poss stripe, not 100% sure on that though.
> 
> Any help would be great.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Xerse


Hi Xerse, 

You would get 100% normals het Hypo, Anery, Lavender poss het Stripe! 

Best to find another pairing! 

For the ghost you need something with Hypo or Anery or both to get a visual corn! 

For the lavender you need to find a lavender or het lavender to produce a visual! 

Hope it helps

Cheers Jamie


----------



## Xerse

doogle said:


> Hi Xerse,
> 
> You would get 100% normals het Hypo, Anery, Lavender poss het Stripe!
> 
> Best to find another pairing!
> 
> For the ghost you need something with Hypo or Anery or both to get a visual corn!
> 
> For the lavender you need to find a lavender or het lavender to produce a visual!
> 
> Hope it helps
> 
> Cheers Jamie


That's just what i thought Jamie, thank you for that, i'm very confused.

My friend has bought a corn snake from a breeder, who says the mother is the Anery ghost, and the father is the Lav, and one hatchling was a stripe...(so i'm presuming there must be a het stripe in with a parent, or does it have to be both parents?)

He was sold this snake as a lav ghost.
Looks more just ghost to me, and she's certain (he emailed her regarding the genetics of the parents because i told him to, because i couldn't see reason for how this was made..) and she replied again with the above genetics (i'm just guessing the poss het stripe because of a stripe hatchling!)

Any chance you can shed any light on this?

Thanks.


----------



## doogle

Xerse said:


> That's just what i thought Jamie, thank you for that, i'm very confused.
> 
> My friend has bought a corn snake from a breeder, who says the mother is the Anery ghost, and the father is the Lav, and one hatchling was a stripe...(so i'm presuming there must be a het stripe in with a parent, or does it have to be both parents?)
> 
> He was sold this snake as a lav ghost.
> Looks more just ghost to me, and she's certain (he emailed her regarding the genetics of the parents because i told him to, because i couldn't see reason for how this was made..) and she replied again with the above genetics (i'm just guessing the poss het stripe because of a stripe hatchling!)
> 
> Any chance you can shed any light on this?
> 
> Thanks.


If there is a Stripe in the clutch then both parents must be het stripe! 

As for being a Ghost lavender then the ghost would have to be het lavender and the lavender would have to be het Hypo Anery?

If they dont then it may just be a ghost as the lavender parent might just be a ghost corn but with a very lavender colour as some ghosts do!

Hard to say really without knowing what was in the clutch altogether and knowing the parents hets?

Cheers Jamie


----------



## Xerse

doogle said:


> If there is a Stripe in the clutch then both parents must be het stripe!
> 
> As for being a Ghost lavender then the ghost would have to be het lavender and the lavender would have to be het Hypo Anery?
> 
> If they dont then it may just be a ghost as the lavender parent might just be a ghost corn but with a very lavender colour as some ghosts do!
> 
> Hard to say really without knowing what was in the clutch altogether and knowing the parents hets?
> 
> Cheers Jamie


Thanks i wasn't sure about the het stripe.

My friend said the breeder had (from the same clutch i'm talking about)

*"Well from the babies she had anerys, lavender ghost, lavender, normals and something stripes**"*

_*"And in the ad i responded to she had Snows, Lavenders, Carolinas and Stripes"*_

These are quotes from my friend, so now i'm stumped what this breeder is doing to produce all these different morphs from one clutch :lol2:

Is this even possible? Unless there was a LOT of hets?
Damn genetics! :whip:


----------



## bothrops

Xerse said:


> Thanks i wasn't sure about the het stripe.
> 
> My friend said the breeder had (from the same clutch i'm talking about)
> 
> *"Well from the babies she had anerys, lavender ghost, lavender, normals and something stripes**"*
> 
> _*"And in the ad i responded to she had Snows, Lavenders, Carolinas and Stripes"*_
> 
> These are quotes from my friend, so now i'm stumped what this breeder is doing to produce all these different morphs from one clutch :lol2:
> 
> Is this even possible? Unless there was a LOT of hets?
> Damn genetics! :whip:


Possible? yep!

However, the 'snows' add an element of confusion as they add another mutation (amel). Not impossible, but you would expect that clutch to deliver amels, amel stripes, amel snows, lav snows, opals...etc.

However, for the above results from a ghost (hypo anery) x lavender would mean that the ghost is genotypically ghost het lavender, stripe and amel and the lavender is genotypically lavender het anery, hypo, stripe and amel.

As stated though, with that pairing you would expect more amel based combos on the mix than just snow (however the above results are not impossible from a pairing as discussed!


----------



## Xerse

bothrops said:


> Possible? yep!
> 
> However, the 'snows' add an element of confusion as they add another mutation (amel). Not impossible, but you would expect that clutch to deliver amels, amel stripes, amel snows, lav snows, opals...etc.
> 
> However, for the above results from a ghost (hypo anery) x lavender would mean that the ghost is genotypically ghost het lavender, stripe and amel and the lavender is genotypically lavender het anery, hypo, stripe and amel.
> 
> As stated though, with that pairing you would expect more amel based combos on the mix than just snow (however the above results are not impossible from a pairing as discussed!


Now i'm even more confused 
The breeder has emailed this was in the clutch.

3 snows, 4 anery/lavender stripes, 4 lavenders, and 4 anery lavenders, with some showing ghost characteristics.

Yet sold my friend the snake as a ghost lav.
could THIS be from the pairing mentioned above? i guess so, just with het stripes and must have amel for the snows?..

Also, what are your thoughts on this picture?..what would you personally say this morph is (the said snake my friend bought)




























Thanks for all the help!


----------



## Ssthisto

Xerse said:


> Now i'm even more confused
> The breeder has emailed this was in the clutch.
> 
> 3 snows, 4 anery/lavender stripes, 4 lavenders, and 4 anery lavenders, with some showing ghost characteristics.
> 
> Yet sold my friend the snake as a ghost lav.
> could THIS be from the pairing mentioned above? i guess so, just with het stripes and must have amel for the snows?..
> 
> Thanks for all the help!


The snake in question appears to be a ghost - I would not have expected the dark borders on a Lavender-based animal, especially not a lavender/hypo animal. I am betting that the "anery lavender" stripes are in fact Ghost Stripe, and that the Anery Lavenders are Ghosts. For comparison, here is an Anery Lavender, newly hatched (they lighten as they age):









Note that she doesn't have dark saddle borders.

And a Lavender het Anery and Hypo:








She doesn't have "borders" either - she has fading in the middle of the saddles - and the colour tones are all different.

A Lavender being het Anery, Amel, Stripe and Hypo is not unheard-of (though it's a pretty multi-het job!) and certainly there are a few het Anery-Amel-Stripes floating around that I'm aware of (I've got one).


----------



## cornmorphs

Bakerton said:


> Can I just ask which would be the best corn snake morphs to buy? I'm confused when it comes to them.
> 
> Would a male Amel stripe het Anery and hypo and a female Het amel anery and possible lavender be a good choice?
> 
> what would be the outcome of these?


 amel stripes are one of the best and most colourful corns out there.
a nice full stripe is always a great start to use in a breeding project.


----------



## Xerse

Ssthisto said:


> The snake in question appears to be a ghost - I would not have expected the dark borders on a Lavender-based animal, especially not a lavender/hypo animal. I am betting that the "anery lavender" stripes are in fact Ghost Stripe, and that the Anery Lavenders are Ghosts. For comparison, here is an Anery Lavender, newly hatched (they lighten as they age):
> 
> image
> Note that she doesn't have dark saddle borders.
> 
> And a Lavender het Anery and Hypo:
> image
> She doesn't have "borders" either - she has fading in the middle of the saddles - and the colour tones are all different.
> 
> A Lavender being het Anery, Amel, Stripe and Hypo is not unheard-of (though it's a pretty multi-het job!) and certainly there are a few het Anery-Amel-Stripes floating around that I'm aware of (I've got one).


Thank you SSthisto, that's really helped.

We'll say it's a ghost, until it's proven otherwise.
We wants to breed it when it's old enough, so we'll be able to see what it is more when theres some little hatchlings! : victory:


----------



## cornman247

what would i get from an amel and anery?

also what weight would you say a female needs to be to breed?


----------



## eeji

all normals het amel anery, and 300+ grams (and in good health) to breed


----------



## cornman247

thanks, my female is just over 350 grams at the mo, so by the time breeding season comes she should be great for it then


----------



## wrenchy

hey mate i have a sunglow striped male which i am gonna be breeding with a butter motley, normal and a hypo what do you think they will produce? many thanks


----------



## manuetaaz

Hello, I know a nice website about corn snakes, it's called the corn calculator, it will give you genetic results in pairing corns, here it is:

http://www.corncalc.com/


----------



## Ssthisto

wrenchy said:


> hey mate i have a sunglow striped male which i am gonna be breeding with a butter motley, normal and a hypo what do you think they will produce? many thanks


Sunglow (low-white Amel) Stripe to Butter Mot = Amel Motley-het-Stripe het Caramel. They may be circleback motley, stripey motley or anything in between.

Sunglow Stripe X Normal = Normal het Amel Stripe

Sunglow Stripe X Hypo = Normal het Hypo, Amel, Stripe


----------



## zachh09

what about a Ghost to an Oketee


----------



## Ssthisto

zachh09 said:


> what about a Ghost to an Oketee


"Okeetee" is a selectively bred normal (selected for wide black borders and rich orange background colouring).

Ghost is a combination of Hypomelanistic ("hypo") and Anerythristic ("anery"). Both of those traits are recessive.

So all the offspring will be *normals *(which may have wider than average black borders and a brighter orange background colour) that are het for Hypo and Anery.


----------



## zachh09

Ok thanks


----------



## joanne87

hi

sorry to bother everyone but what would i get if i bred my creamiscle (sp) corn with a 'high white amel'

thanks 

jo


----------



## Athravan

joanne87 said:


> hi
> 
> sorry to bother everyone but what would i get if i bred my creamiscle (sp) corn with a 'high white amel'
> 
> thanks
> 
> jo


Creamsicle is a the albino hybrid great plains rat snake x corn snake. All the offspring will be hybrids and as both parents are albino, all will be albino, and thus all will be termed creamsicle.


----------



## joanne87

Athravan said:


> Creamsicle is a the albino hybrid great plains rat snake x corn snake. All the offspring will be hybrids and as both parents are albino, all will be albino, and thus all will be termed creamsicle.


 
thank you very much, that sounds exciting : victory:


----------



## kieran101

Hello 

Any idea what i would get from a ghost motley (male) pair with a normal female het amel and stripe ? ? ?

also both snakes are huge for corns, around 7ft , so would the offspring be likely to grow that big?

This is for a freind

cheers


----------



## Ssthisto

kieran101 said:


> Hello
> 
> Any idea what i would get from a ghost motley (male) pair with a normal female het amel and stripe ? ? ?


If they're corn snakes, you'd expect:

*Normals* het Anery, Hypo and Motley possible het Amel
*Motley-Het-Stripes* het for Anery and Hypo, possible het Amel



> also both snakes are huge for corns, around 7ft , so would the offspring be likely to grow that big?


I would VERY much like to see proof that those snakes are:

A. Actually 7 feet long
B. Actually corn snakes if they ARE 7 feet long. 

A Grey Ratsnake can look a lot like a ghost motley (white belly, grey markings on top) and hybrid Obsoletas can look like normal corn snakes (especially if, say, one parent was an Amelanistic Black Ratsnake and one parent was an Everglades Ratsnake - which looks like a striped corn). Those would be expected to potentially reach those sorts of sizes, but I've never heard of a pure corn snake getting anywhere near seven feet in length - six-and-a-touch is about the largest I've ever heard of.


----------



## Emmabeth

Bah I am terribly bored in bed 'ill' (the annoying kind of ill where you feel ok but can do b*gger all)... sooo

Heres my lot - I have various ideas of what I want to do with it all when the time comes, but what would you (anyone?!) do...

Males:
Snow
Anery Motley
Ghost
Platinum
Golddust Motley
Lava (het caramel,amel, motley) 
Amel (het caramel, motley, ph hypo, anery)
Tessera (het amel)

Females:
Butter
Hypo motley
Coral 
Anery
Citrine
Normal
Lava het caramel, amel, motley
Snow het motley, ph caramel, hypo

It's gonna be a while before anyone gets bred as bar two males these are all far too young.


----------



## cookie monster

how about a reduced black normal het blood red what shal i breed her with? thanks
and a male root beer what to put with him?


----------



## Ssthisto

Emmabeth said:


> Males:
> Snow
> Anery Motley
> Ghost
> Platinum
> Golddust Motley
> Lava (het caramel,amel, motley)
> Amel (het caramel, motley, ph hypo, anery)
> Tessera (het amel)
> 
> Females:
> Butter
> Hypo motley
> Coral
> Anery
> Citrine
> Normal
> Lava het caramel, amel, motley
> Snow het motley, ph caramel, hypo


Personally: 
Lava het Butter Motley to:
Lava het Butter Motley
Citrine
Snow het Motley poss. Caramel and Hypo

Tessera to everything else.



cookie monster said:


> how about a reduced black normal het blood red what shal i breed her with? thanks
> and a male root beer what to put with him?


Normal het bloodred: Best bet's a bloodred or a combo involving bloodred.

Rootbeer: Anything you put it to will result in Rootbeer Ratsnake hatchlings.


----------



## spikes2212

I have a silver queen vanishing strip that I have just put with a normal just for fun to see what will come out as the silver queen has no yellow or any real colour at all so am very exited to se what come out of this mix


----------



## eeji

unless your normal is het anery, hypo, motley or stripe you will get a clutch full of normals


----------



## Xerse

eeji said:


> unless your normal is het anery, hypo, motley or stripe you will get a clutch full of normals


Yep, a nice clutch of 100% normals. :gasp:


----------



## bothrops

Xerse said:


> Yep, a nice clutch of 100% normals. :gasp:


Not 100% normal at all.

100% of them will be _visually_ normal agreed, but the way you have worded the post makes it appear that they won't carry anything either!


I know you knew that but the OP might not have!

OP, They will of course be 100% het anery, hypo and stripe : victory: if the litter is 100% phenotypically normal.

(of course, if the vanishing stripe has any unknown hets or the normal has unknown hets that are not listed above by Ian (i.e. het amel for example) then all offspring will be 50% het for that too, but you'll not know that unless they both do and you get a visual (in which case the none visuals will be 66% het!)) Boy I love genetics!


----------



## cornmorphs

Males:
Snow
Anery Motley
Ghost
Platinum
Golddust Motley
Lava (het caramel,amel, motley) 
Amel (het caramel, motley, ph hypo, anery)
Tessera (het amel)

Females:
Butter
Hypo motley
Coral 
Anery
Citrine
Normal
Lava het caramel, amel, motley
Snow het motley, ph caramel, hypo


Ok lets have a quick nose..
Obviously you have to do this pairing:-
1>>Lava (het caramel,amel, motley)

2>>You may not like this.. but i'd go for the rest all to the tessera the 1st time around.
To Butter =
normals and tessera het amel, caramel
also amel and amel tessera het caramel

To Hypo motley =
normals and tessera het hypo, motley


To Coral =
normals and tessera het amel,anery, hypo
amels and amel tessera het anery, hypo

To Anery =
normals and tessera het anery

To Citrine =
normals and tessera het amel,anery, hypo,caramel
amel and amel tessera het anery,hypo,caramel

To Normal =
normals and tesseras

To Snow het motley, ph caramel, hypo =
normals and tessera het amel,anery
amel and amel tessera het anery

I havent bothered listing all the potential possible hets.. But I think the 1st few people here to use the tessera correctly will sell well.
I wont buy one until they are very cheap, which wont be long now.
Then the year after I would start playing around with the other males and also start using the baby tessera hets to go back to their mums.
That way you get about 10 tessera morphs from one snake.

man I should take some of my own advice lol


----------



## boabloketony

I have a male Anery with a pastel motley parent but have been told there is no 'het Pastel Motley' so if I bred him with an Amel Motley then there would be no visual motley offspring? 

I've confused myself :blush:


----------



## Ssthisto

The "no het pastel motley" is only partly true. No, an animal can't be het "Pastel" - because that's a line-bred polygenic trait, rather than a single simple gene.

Your Anery will be het for at least one thing - motley (which is a simple single recessive trait). Depending on whether the "Pastel Motley" was a ghost or not, you might also have a het-hypo in there; it's not always agreed whether "pastels" are ghosts, anerythristics or either-or.

So if you breed him with an Amel Motley, you would indeed expect some motley offspring.


----------



## bothrops

boabloketony said:


> I have a male Anery with a pastel motley parent but have been told there is no 'het Pastel Motley' so if I bred him with an Amel Motley then there would be no visual motley offspring?
> 
> I've confused myself :blush:


Hi Tony.

pastel motely is another term for an anery motley that has a high amount of colour to it (pinks and browns). The colour is line bred so although technically there is no 'het pastel motley', your animal will be anery het motley (unless the pastel motely was actually motley/stripe, in which case your anery will be either het motley or het stripe (can't be both!).

Bred to an amel motley...

(assuming only motley is involved)

parents - anery het motley x amel motley

offspring - 

50% normal motley 100% het snow.
50% normal 100% het snow

Any other things in the babies will tell you other things about the parents...

Any anerys babies mean the amel is also het anery
Any amel babies mean your anery is also het amel
Any snow babies means both of the above are true

Any striped babies means your anery is actually het stripe and the motley amel is actually a motley/stripe.

(have a good week, see you after h/t)

Cheers

Andy

EDIT - She got there first again!...Didn't now about the disputed ghost bit, but if it isn't a ghost parent all the above stands. If it is ghost parent then your anery id also het hypo and you will possibly get ghosts and hypos if the amel is also het hypo (or visual hypo as it is masked be the amel!)


----------



## boabloketony

Ssthisto said:


> The "no het pastel motley" is only partly true. No, an animal can't be het "Pastel" - because that's a line-bred polygenic trait, rather than a single simple gene.
> 
> Your Anery will be het for at least one thing - motley (which is a simple single recessive trait). Depending on whether the "Pastel Motley" was a ghost or not, you might also have a het-hypo in there; it's not always agreed whether "pastels" are ghosts, anerythristics or either-or.
> 
> So if you breed him with an Amel Motley, you would indeed expect some motley offspring.





bothrops said:


> Hi Tony.
> 
> pastel motely is another term for an anery motley that has a high amount of colour to it (pinks and browns). The colour is line bred so although technically there is no 'het pastel motley', your animal will be anery het motley (unless the pastel motely was actually motley/stripe, in which case your anery will be either het motley or het stripe (can't be both!).
> 
> Bred to an amel motley...
> 
> (assuming only motley is involved)
> 
> parents - anery het motley x amel motley
> 
> offspring -
> 
> 50% normal motley 100% het snow.
> 50% normal 100% het snow
> 
> Any other things in the babies will tell you other things about the parents...
> 
> Any anerys babies mean the amel is also het anery
> Any amel babies mean your anery is also het amel
> Any snow babies means both of the above are true
> 
> Any striped babies means your anery is actually het stripe and the motley amel is actually a motley/stripe.
> 
> (have a good week, see you after h/t)
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andy
> 
> EDIT - She got there first again!...Didn't now about the disputed ghost bit, but if it isn't a ghost parent all the above stands. If it is ghost parent then your anery id also het hypo and you will possibly get ghosts and hypos if the amel is also het hypo (or visual hypo as it is masked be the amel!)


Brilliant, thank you both


----------



## lance baillie

*which is the best to breed??*

This is a list of my snakes :

1. Anery F
2. Blood F
3. Albino F
4. Snow striped F
5. Blood M
6. Ghost M

What are the best snakes to breed and what will i get once the eggs have hatched?


----------



## Athravan

lance baillie said:


> This is a list of my snakes :
> 
> 1. Anery F
> 2. Blood F
> 3. Albino F
> 4. Snow striped F
> 5. Blood M
> 6. Ghost M
> 
> What are the best snakes to breed and what will i get once the eggs have hatched?


You're looking at
Anery x Blood = Normal het Granite, or Anery x Ghost = Anery het Hypo
Blood x Blood = Blood or Blood x Ghost = Normal het Hypo Granite
Albino x Blood = Normal het Fire or Albino x Ghost = Normal het Hypo Snow
Snow Stripe x Blood = Normal het Avalanche Stripe (Amel, Anery, Blood, Stripe) or Snow Stripe x Ghost = Normal het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Stripe.


----------



## lance baillie

Thanks for the reply I am a Novice, and what would u recommend I breed?


----------



## Ssthisto

Athravan said:


> Snow Stripe x Ghost = Normal het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Stripe.


Wouldn't that one produce Anery het Amel, Hypo, Stripe, since both parents are homozygous Anerythristic?


----------



## Athravan

Ssthisto said:


> Wouldn't that one produce Anery het Amel, Hypo, Stripe, since both parents are homozygous Anerythristic?


Yeah, you're right, serves me right for replying quickly at work :lol2:


----------



## eeji

lance baillie said:


> Thanks for the reply I am a Novice, and what would u recommend I breed?


i'd do:

bloodred x bloodred
bloodred x amel
snow stripe x ghost
anery x ghost

and keep back some nice project hatchlings


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Okay I am no good with genetics so will ask for some help?
I have introduced 2 carolinas together and I am expecting carolinas :lol2:
now I have just placed my male carolina in with a albino okeetee, Bill and Kathy Love type what can I expect?


----------



## Ssthisto

Salazare Slytherin said:


> now I have just placed my male carolina in with a albino okeetee, Bill and Kathy Love type what can I expect?


Normals (AKA "Carolina"/"wildtype"/"Classic") het for Amelanistic, which may or may not have wider-than-average black borders. 

Reverse Okeetee ("albino okeetee") is just a selectively bred wide-bordered Amelanistic.


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Ssthisto said:


> Normals (AKA "Carolina"/"wildtype"/"Classic") het for Amelanistic, which may or may not have wider-than-average black borders.
> 
> Reverse Okeetee ("albino okeetee") is just a selectively bred wide-bordered Amelanistic.


 
Thankyou: victory:


----------



## spikes2212

Hi all, have a funny breeding time right now and trying to make a new breed which will be interesting,

I have placed my Silver Queen motley with the Creamsicle, I can't wait to see what comes out of this fusion and will be very cool. Has anyone every done this mix before??


----------



## SnakeBreeder

spikes2212 said:


> Hi all, have a funny breeding time right now and trying to make a new breed which will be interesting,
> 
> I have placed my Silver Queen motley with the Creamsicle, I can't wait to see what comes out of this fusion and will be very cool. Has anyone every done this mix before??


Think you'll end up with Rootbeers, which is a corn / great plains hybrid.
Your creamsicle is a an amel hybrid between a corn and a great plains.
The Silver queen is a nice anery.
Therefore they cancel out each other and you get "normal" hybrids = Rootbeers.


----------



## spikes2212

Ok cool thanks for the info. will be intresting and I'll keep you up to date would be good if some Pied come out of it


----------



## eeji

spikes2212 said:


> ....would be good if some Pied come out of it


Accrington Stanley have got more chance of winning the FA cup than this


----------



## bothrops

eeji said:


> Accrington Stanley have got more chance of winning the FA cup than this


 
Accrington Stanley??! Who are they?


----------



## eeji

bothrops said:


> Accrington Stanley??! Who are they?


Exactly! :lol2:


----------



## bothrops

eeji said:


> Exactly! :lol2:


:lol2:




(I'm going to stick my snow and amel together this year - fingers crossed for tessera:no1


----------



## bothrops

spikes2212 said:


> Ok cool thanks for the info. will be intresting and I'll keep you up to date would be good if some Pied come out of it


 
Felt bad about previous post! - My apologies. I'm afraid the reason for the frivolity is that the chances of a pied corn popping out randomly from this mating is hundreds of times less likely than Elvis Presley crashing a UFO into the Lock Ness Monster whilst holding the winning Euromillions ticket on friday night.....good luck though!




As stated earlier, if the animals have no other hets then* all* you are expecting is hybrid snakes (you CANNOT and MUST NOT sell them as 'corn snakes') that are less exciting than the adults you have.

They will be called 'rootbeers' and MUST be very clear to all who buy them that they are hybrids and not pure corns.
I would also be worried whether there is a market for rootbeers as corns are really not selling well at all at the moment.

If you do breed, the bonus will be that the animals will be 100% het anery, motley and amel.

Also if you get any motely animals you know the amel is het motley or het stripe, if you get any aneries you know your amel is het anery and if you get any candycanes you know your anery motley is het amel.

Any other combinations will tell you more than one of these is true.

Good luck and let us know how you get on!


Cheers

Andy


----------



## lance baillie

*opal stripe*

i am looking at buying a stripe corn 66%het lavender/amel "opal" how would you get opal stripes


----------



## Ssthisto

lance baillie said:


> i am looking at buying a stripe corn 66%het lavender/amel "opal" how would you get opal stripes


To get opal stripes, both parents must carry stripe, lavender and amel.

So, IF your stripe is actually het for lavender and Amel, you need another one who is at least het stripe, lavender and amel to produce Opal Stripes.

The 66% het does mean that there's a chance that the snake is not het for lavender or amel or both, though...

My choice, with a Stripe possible het Lavender Amel, would be to get an Opal het Stripe or a Lavender het Stripe and Amel.


----------



## lance baillie

i have the following males
bloodred
ghost het bloodred
amel
what would i get if they bred with thestripe corn


----------



## Ssthisto

lance baillie said:


> i have the following males
> bloodred
> ghost het bloodred
> amel
> what would i get if they bred with thestripe corn


Well, in the worst case scenario (Your Stripe is not het for EITHER amel OR Lavender) ...

Stripe X Bloodred = *Normal* het Bloodred and Stripe
Stripe X Ghost het Bloodred = *Normal *het Anery, Hypo, Stripe and 50% possible het bloodred
Stripe X Amel = *Normal *het Amel and Stripe

In the best case scenario (The Stripe is het for BOTH Amel AND Lavender)...

Stripe het Lavender / Amel X Bloodred = *Normal* het Bloodred and Stripe, 50% possible het Lavender and Amel
Stripe het Lavender / Amel X Ghost het Blood = *Normal* het Stripe, Anery, Hypo, 50% possible het Lavender, Amel, Blood

Stripe het Lavender / Amel X Amel = 50% chance of *Normal* het Stripe, Amel, 50% possible het Lavender, 50% chance of *Amel* het Stripe, 50% possible het Lavender.


----------



## Rach1

hello all...
my ghost motley has just laid some eggs...
she was seen locked with a butter male...what can i expect other than ugly corn snakes?
LOL
also, someone has just bought the male butter and has said that they think its a 50% creamsicle butter mix...
what does this mean? in terms of the eggs and his genetics etc?
thank you guys!

EDIT:- would i be right in thinking i would simply get all normals with a variety of hets (amel, motley, caramel etc?)


----------



## bothrops

Rach1 said:


> hello all...
> my ghost motley has just laid some eggs...
> she was seen locked with a butter male...what can i expect other than ugly corn snakes?
> LOL
> 
> EDIT:- would i be right in thinking i would simply get all normals with a variety of hets (amel, motley, caramel etc?)


Yep - normal 100% het motely, anery, hypo, amel, caramel

interesting F2 generation though!




Rach1 said:


> also, someone has just bought the male butter and has said that they think its a 50% creamsicle butter mix...
> what does this mean? in terms of the eggs and his genetics etc?
> thank you guys!


It means they didn't quite know what they were talking about. As 'creamsicle' is a term for a hybrid, an animal can not be '50% creamsicle'. It either IS a creamsicle (i.e. has great plains rat in its heritage) or it ISN'T (i.e. pure corn).

It is however possible that someone has bred the creamsicles into the butter/caramel lines and produced caramel creamsicles.

If it is a caramel creamsicle, then it means two things. Firstly, the outcome mutation wise will be exactly the same (five hets), but the animals won't be 'normal corns' they will be 'rootbeers' (i.e. great plains/corn snake hybrids).

Maybe post a photo so we can see?


----------



## Rach1

hmm.. not sure i have any of Zen...
i'm not sure what he meant.
maybe if he sees this he will explain...
hang on i'll check my pm's...


----------



## Rach1

fairly certain zen is 50/50 creamsicle and have a nice amel to cross him with next year that should give bright 75/25 creamsicles

ok so my error...how can you tell zen is a creamsicle by looking...to me he was a butter...

btw:- i'm no dissing the guy or calling him..just wondering what this means in terms of any potential eggs!"


----------



## Ssthisto

Rach1 said:


> ok so my error...how can you tell zen is a creamsicle by looking...to me he was a butter...


What colour is Zen's *background* colour? 

Creamsicles and butters do look SIMILAR but they're not often identical.


----------



## Rach1

i'm trying to work out how to get a photo off my mobile onto here.
he is yellowy background with yellowy orange saddles.


----------



## Rach1

well that didn't work... 

#


----------



## Rach1

currently cannot log into photobucket..too many failed logins! LOL
typed my password out in caps by mistake!


----------



## Rach1

here he is...sorry about photo its off my phone..


----------



## cornmorphs

from that I would have said creamsicle.
so you would therefor get rootbeer babies.


----------



## Rach1

again appologies for quality..


----------



## Rach1

poo...a well, i probs wouldn't have kept him any how...i already have a rootbeer hybrid so would want another full corn male really..
i may contact the buyer to inform him.
so for future reference, how can you tell difference between butter/creamsicle.
so i will get rootys even tho he has been bred to a ghost motley?
i'm sorry i'm poo at genetics..


----------



## bothrops

Rach1 said:


> poo...a well, i probs wouldn't have kept him any how...i already have a rootbeer hybrid so would want another full corn male really..
> i may contact the buyer to inform him.
> so for future reference, how can you tell difference between butter/creamsicle.
> so i will get rootys even tho he has been bred to a ghost motley?
> i'm sorry i'm poo at genetics..


 
As before, you can't get 50/50 creamsicle then bred corn to it to get 75/25 creamsicle.

Let me explain:

corn x corn = corn

great plains rat x great plains rat = great plains rat

great plains rat x corn = rootbeer

amel rootbeer = creamsicle


rootbeer to great plains = rootbeer
rootbeer to corn = rootbeer

Once the animal is a hybrid (rootbeer/creamsicle) is will NEVER be able to produce anything EXCEPT more hybrids.




creamsicles (amel rootbeers) tend to be more orange than yellow and their is often a different head shape/saddle number that indicate differences (Ssthisto will know more detail than me on that score)

butters (amel caramel corn snakes) should be yellow but are sometimes a slightly browny yellow (and the head shape/saddle count thing)


----------



## Rach1

ok i think i understand.
so i am right in saying all the babies will not be corns but hybrids.
thats assuming he is a creamsicle.. i was told he was a butter.
can you get motley rootbeers?

so the guy who bought him is wrong in saying 50/50 creamsicle?
thats where i am confused.

i wouldn't want to sell any offspring as corns of they are not either...


----------



## Ssthisto

bothrops said:


> As before, you can't get 50/50 creamsicle then bred corn to it to get 75/25 creamsicle.


Unless of course you mean "50% GPR / 50% corn" or "75% corn / 25% GPR" - which is what *I* mean if I say I'm looking for a 50/50 Rootbeer. A hybrid animal with specific and KNOWN species parentage.


----------



## Rach1

bloody hell!
i'm lost! :lol2:

ok can we start be trying to establish what Zen is/was?
what do you guys think?


----------



## Ssthisto

Right, the photographs are not great because they're in bad lighting. I'd really want to see what his true colours are (under sunlight/outdoor light) because incandescents/fluorescents change the colours we see.

The photos I see show hints of orange/peach in his saddle colours, and a Butter doesn't have them except when in slough (they have yellow/golden saddles with no red; Caramel is an anerythristic-effect gene that removes red pigment). But that COULD be an artifact of the photograph rather than his actual colouring.


----------



## Rach1

thats interesting as the photos were taken when he was in shed...
i remember telling the buyer that!

i may see if he can post some photos up on here... except i wouldn't want him to think i was being an arse...


----------



## bothrops

Ssthisto said:


> Unless of course you mean "50% GPR / 50% corn" or "75% corn / 25% GPR" - which is what *I* mean if I say I'm looking for a 50/50 Rootbeer. A hybrid animal with specific and KNOWN species parentage.


I did think that. However if we're talking 50/50 creamsicle/butter like we were originally, the genetics of amel and caramel mean that it is unlikely a '50/50 creamsicle/butter' could occur, plus the fact your starting with a creamsicle not a great plains means the term 50/50 butter creamsicle is non-sensicle.....

My assumption was the original person was claiming the animal looks halfway between a creamsicle and a butter. That may be true, but if it was, it couldn't be 50% great plains, so would have to be 'just a creamsicle' perhaps with the caramel gene introduced (i.e. caramel creamsicle)....


----------



## cornmorphs

The best people to speak to about butter creams will be stephen sharp of snakebreeder, and maybe paul chase.. his last name on here was buttermorph I think, but havent seen him for a while.
stephen has been breeding these for a few years now, I suspect a good picture and he will tell you 100% what your snake is.


----------



## timc20xe

this is my first year breeding corns , ive got a couple of questions for you

pewter to a pewter , will they all come out pewters ?

caramel motley het amel to a pewter , will they all be normals het caramel and pewter ?

annery to a sunglow het hypo , will they all be normals het annery and sunglow ? 

many thanks tim


----------



## bothrops

timc20xe said:


> this is my first year breeding corns , ive got a couple of questions for you
> 
> pewter to a pewter , will they all come out pewters ?
> 
> caramel motley het amel to a pewter , will they all be normals het caramel and pewter ?
> 
> annery to a sunglow het hypo , will they all be normals het annery and sunglow ?
> 
> many thanks tim


pewter x pewter = 100% pewter (unless both animals are 'het' for another recessive mutation such as amel etc)

pewter = bloodred anery


so...

caramel motely het amel x anery bloodred

100% normal het motley, caramel, anery, bloodred 50% poss het amel


sunglow is a selectively bred amel.


anery (only one 'n') to sunglow het hypo

100% normal het amel, anery 50% poss het hypo


----------



## timc20xe

bothrops said:


> pewter x pewter = 100% pewter (unless both animals are 'het' for another recessive mutation such as amel etc)
> 
> pewter = bloodred anery
> 
> 
> so...
> 
> caramel motely het amel x anery bloodred
> 
> 100% normal het motley, caramel, anery, bloodred 50% poss het amel
> 
> 
> sunglow is a selectively bred amel.
> 
> 
> anery (only one 'n') to sunglow het hypo
> 
> 100% normal het amel, anery 50% poss het hypo


 
thanks for the reply , 

if i then breed two of the siblings back to each other from the caramel then would i get , normals , motleys , caramels , annery and bloodreds ?
or would they just be normals with hets ?

thanks tim


----------



## bothrops

timc20xe said:


> thanks for the reply ,
> 
> if i then breed two of the siblings back to each other from the caramel then would i get , normals , motleys , caramels , annery and bloodreds ?
> or would they just be normals with hets ?
> 
> thanks tim


 
normal het caramel, motley, anery, bloodred poss het amel x normal het caramel, motley, anery, bloodred poss het amel

= quite a keliodoscope of colours! lol

I'm not working out the percentages, but you're talking..

caramels, motleys, anerys, bloodreds, anery caramels, caramel bloodreds, anery motleys, anery bloodreds, caramel anery bloodreds, motley bloodreds, caramel motleys, caramel motley bloodreds, anery caramel motley bloodreds...

of course if both animals prove out to be het amel, then you can add..
butters, amels, amel motleys, snows, sulphers, amel bloodreds, snow caramels, snow motleys, snow bloodreds (avalanche?), caramel snow bloodreds, amel motley bloodreds, butters motleys, butter motley bloodreds, anery butter motley bloodreds.....


----------



## timc20xe

bothrops said:


> normal het caramel, motley, anery, bloodred poss het amel x normal het caramel, motley, anery, bloodred poss het amel
> 
> = quite a keliodoscope of colours! lol
> 
> I'm not working out the percentages, but you're talking..
> 
> caramels, motleys, anerys, bloodreds, anery caramels, caramel bloodreds, anery motleys, anery bloodreds, caramel anery bloodreds, motley bloodreds, caramel motleys, caramel motley bloodreds, anery caramel motley bloodreds...
> 
> of course if both animals prove out to be het amel, then you can add..
> butters, amels, amel motleys, snows, sulphers, amel bloodreds, snow caramels, snow motleys, snow bloodreds (avalanche?), caramel snow bloodreds, amel motley bloodreds, butters motleys, butter motley bloodreds, anery butter motley bloodreds.....


 
bloody hell thats alot of possabiliteys lol , defentley worth keeping a few back then 

thanks alot tim


----------



## bothrops

timc20xe said:


> bloody hell thats alot of possabiliteys lol , defentley worth keeping a few back then
> 
> thanks alot tim


 
There are a lot, but most have rediculously low odds of popping out. Most of the stuff will be normals and single mutations (caramel, anery, poss amel, motley, bloodred) with loads of unknown, possible hets.

It's nice for a 'see what comes out and hope you hit the odds of a super rarity' (like the caramel anery motley bloodred (1/256) or butter anery motley bloodred (1/4096 :gasp

but a lot of the offspring will just be 'poss hets'.

Still, worth a punt! - the trick will be working out what you've got!


Everything that isn't visual for a particular morph in the pot will be 66% poss het for it (except amel)..no amels means that offspring shouldn;t be sold as poss amel, a single amel (or amel combo) means that all offspring are also 66% poss het amel.


----------



## timc20xe

bothrops said:


> There are a lot, but most have rediculously low odds of popping out. Most of the stuff will be normals and single mutations (caramel, anery, poss amel, motley, bloodred) with loads of unknown, possible hets.
> 
> It's nice for a 'see what comes out and hope you hit the odds of a super rarity' (like the caramel anery motley bloodred (1/256) or butter anery motley bloodred (1/4096 :gasp
> 
> but a lot of the offspring will just be 'poss hets'.
> 
> Still, worth a punt! - the trick will be working out what you've got!
> 
> 
> Everything that isn't visual for a particular morph in the pot will be 66% poss het for it (except amel)..no amels means that offspring shouldn;t be sold as poss amel, a single amel (or amel combo) means that all offspring are also 66% poss het amel.


realy is great info and is much appreciated , i will write back on this thread in 3 years and let you no what i get lol

thanks tim


----------



## Ssthisto

bothrops said:


> pewter x pewter = 100% pewter (unless both animals are 'het' for another recessive mutation such as amel etc)
> 
> pewter = bloodred anery


Pewter != bloodred Anery (that's "Granite")

Pewter is Charcoal Bloodred - so in all calculations replace "Anery" with Charcoal and all combinations will be the charcoal-based version (Blizzards, not Snows, Whiteout, not Avalanche).


----------



## timc20xe

i bred a sibling back to the dad (pewter) would i get , normals , charcoals bloodreds , ?

thanks tim


----------



## bothrops

Ssthisto said:


> Pewter != bloodred Anery (that's "Granite")
> 
> Pewter is Charcoal Bloodred - so in all calculations replace "Anery" with Charcoal and all combinations will be the charcoal-based version (Blizzards, not Snows, Whiteout, not Avalanche).


 
Oops..:blush::blush::blush:

I really must learn to concentrate - I even checked Ian's vivarium as I couldn't remember - clearly didn't read it properly at all.....

I also always have to check opals vs corals.....



Still - at least all the genetics is sound even if one of the mutations is named incorrectly!


----------



## bothrops

timc20xe said:


> i bred a sibling back to the dad (pewter) would i get , normals , charcoals bloodreds , ?
> 
> thanks tim


 
See below! (apologies for the minor error)



bothrops said:


> pewter x pewter = 100% pewter (unless both animals are 'het' for another recessive mutation such as amel etc)
> 
> pewter = bloodred *charcoal*
> 
> so...
> 
> caramel motely het amel x *charcoal* bloodred
> 
> 100% normal het motley, caramel, *charcoal*, bloodred 50% poss het amel
> 
> 
> sunglow is a selectively bred amel.
> 
> 
> anery (only one 'n') to sunglow het hypo
> 
> 100% normal het amel, anery 50% poss het hypo





bothrops said:


> normal het caramel, motley, *charcoal*, bloodred poss het amel x normal het caramel, motley, *charcoal*, bloodred poss het amel
> 
> = quite a keliodoscope of colours! lol
> 
> I'm not working out the percentages, but you're talking..
> 
> caramels, motleys, *charcoal*s, bloodreds, *charcoal* caramels, caramel bloodreds, *charcoal* motleys, *charcoal* bloodreds, caramel *charcoal* bloodreds, motley bloodreds, caramel motleys, caramel motley bloodreds, *charcoal* caramel motley bloodreds...
> 
> of course if both animals prove out to be het amel, then you can add..
> butters, amels, amel motleys, *blizzard*s, sulphers, amel bloodreds, *blizzard* caramels, *blizzard* motleys, *blizzard* bloodreds (*whiteout*), caramel *blizzard* bloodreds, amel motley bloodreds, butters motleys, butter motley bloodreds, *charcoal* butter motley bloodreds.....


 

:2thumb:


----------



## REDDEV1L

ok...this genetics stuff may aswell be an alien language to me...but my bro is desperate to know what he'd get from an *anery + Bloodred ?*

If I read and understood a previous post...he'd get _Normals with het granite ?_
(My explanation to him was Anery is a snake with no red, so basically with those two you're just adding the red back in)


----------



## bothrops

REDDEV1L said:


> ok...this genetics stuff may aswell be an alien language to me...but my bro is desperate to know what he'd get from an *anery + Bloodred ?*
> 
> If I read and understood a previous post...he'd get _Normals with het granite ?_
> (My explanation to him was Anery is a snake with no red, so basically with those two you're just adding the red back in)


Yep - normals 100% het anery and het bloodred AKA normals het granite.



Breed the babies together for 

56.25% normal poss het granite
18.75% anery poss het bloodred
18.75% bloodred poss het anery
6.25% granite


----------



## BlueRoses

Hello Experts !

I am not new to breeding but I am new to breeding Butter x Golddust combos

I have a *Golddust Motley* x *Butter Motley het stripe* ( is this described Butter Motley x stripe btw ?) 
My clutch are hatching, only 2 out so far, and Im embarrased to say I can't tell whether they are butter or golddust :blush:
Looking at 'just hatched' pics of both they are very similar aren't they? Possibly it will become clearer when more come out, because the 2 that are out are the same..... whichever they are !
The markings/dots are a lightish bronzey colour and the eyes look darkish, not red, which makes me think they are GD. 

Thank you


----------



## vetdebbie

The eyes will be completely red if they are butter and more ruby if they are golddust. The butters should be lighter overall than the golddusts once you have some to compare! Sounds like golddusts at the moment.


----------



## BlueRoses

vetdebbie said:


> The eyes will be completely red if they are butter and more ruby if they are golddust. The butters should be lighter overall than the golddusts once you have some to compare! Sounds like golddusts at the moment.


 Thank you....... I feel a bit of a dumbo lol. Does this help at all ?


----------



## vetdebbie

yes golddusts 

Pretty. I like golddusts.


----------



## BlueRoses

The Butter was sold to me as a Butter Motley ( which it visually is ) het stripe. Now am I correct in thinking this is referred to as Butter MotleyxStripe ? So, are there any visual differences with a Butter Motley to a Butter MotleyxStripe ? 

Many thanks : victory:


----------



## Ssthisto

BlueRoses said:


> Now am I correct in thinking this is referred to as Butter MotleyxStripe ? So, are there any visual differences with a Butter Motley to a Butter MotleyxStripe ?


I use "motley-het-stripe" personally, as I don't think there's a definite "industry standard" description.

No, there are no _guaranteed _visual differences between a homozygous motley and an animal that is visually motley and genetically het motley/het stripe. You can get the full range of motley expressions - from "perfect hurricane circles" to "nearly striped" - from *either *Motley genotype.


----------



## BlueRoses

Thank you for that very prompt reply. 

19 now hatched. I have a theory lol. Goldusts incubate slightly quicker than Butters :whistling2: All the Goldusts came out of the eggs before the Butters lol. 

From Butter Motley het stripe and Goldust Motley pairing, I get 

1. 1/4 Butter Motley

2. 1/4 Butter Motley het stripe

3. 1/4 Goldust Motley

4. 1/4 Goldust Motley het stripe

... but I wont be able to tell any visual difference between 1. and 2.

or 3, and 4 right?

Thank you for your help


----------



## mangonmeg

*blood red corn x candy cane x reverse okettee*

hey basically the male is a blood red motley and the female is a candy cane x reverse okettee what would i get


----------



## eeji

mangonmeg said:


> hey basically the male is a blood red motley and the female is a candy cane x reverse okettee what would i get


you will get all normals het diffused, motley, amel


----------



## bothrops

mangonmeg said:


> hey basically the male is a blood red motley and the female is a candy cane x reverse okettee what would i get


 
Ian has given the clutch.

I'll add this:

A candy cane x reverse okeetee is actually just a completely normal 'amel'. This makes your typing easier in future as you can refer to your female as simply an 'amel'.

Candy cane and Reverse Okeetee are selectively bred amels that have been bred to produce very specific versions of an amel. Breeding them together simply cancels out all the efforts of the breeders of the previous generations that created them and you end up back to square one (i.e. 'amel').



So 

bloodred motley x amel

= what Ian said!:2thumb:


----------



## madaboutreptiles

eeji said:


> you will get all normals het diffused, motley, amel


Only 50% possible hets I think :whistling2:


----------



## bothrops

madaboutreptiles said:


> Only 50% possible hets I think :whistling2:


Nope.

100% het for each.


Father has two copies of 'bloodred' so can only give 'bloodred' to his offspring
Father has two copies of 'motley' so can only give 'motley' to his offspring.
Father has two copies of 'NOT amel' so can only give 'NOT amel' to his offspring


Mother has two copies of 'NOT bloodred' so can only give 'NOT bloodred' to her offspring
Mother has two copies of 'NOT motley' so can only give 'NOT motley' to her offspring.
Mother has two copies of 'amel' so can only give 'amel' to her offspring



Therefore ALL offspring will have 

Bloodred/Not Bloodred
Amel/Not Amel
Motley/Not Motley

i.e. normal 100% bloodred, amel and motley





(To save time please understand that bloodred should read diffused)


----------



## madaboutreptiles

I just ran it through the corncalc and so they are 100% hets :2thumb:


----------



## bothrops

madaboutreptiles said:


> I just ran it through the corncalc and so they are 100% hets :2thumb:


What? You didn't beleive me?


By learning a couple of very simple rules, you will never need 'the corncalc' again.


In fact, with this thread having such a great deal of information that a lot of people have spent such a long time creating, its almost insulting to Ian, Ssthisto, Paulh, VetDebbie, myself and others that you felt the need to use the 'corncalc' to 'confirm' what was said.:whip:


----------



## vetdebbie

bothrops said:


> What? You didn't beleive me?
> 
> 
> By learning a couple of very simple rules, you will never need 'the corncalc' again.
> 
> 
> In fact, with this thread having such a great deal of information that a lot of people have spent such a long time creating, its almost insulting to Ian, Ssthisto, Paulh, VetDebbie, myself and others that you felt the need to use the 'corncalc' to 'confirm' what was said.:whip:



I'm less insulted than you by that given I helped write corncalc :lol2: 

It was writted to help Ads understand genetics, and neither of us actually use it any more, except when we can't be bothered to calculate odds on big gene combos.


----------



## bothrops

vetdebbie said:


> I'm less insulted than you by that given I helped write corncalc :lol2:
> 
> It was writted to help Ads understand genetics, and neither of us actually use it any more, except when we can't be bothered to calculate odds on big gene combos.


 
Hehehe:no1:

It was more the fact that I'd gone to the effort of explaining long hand why it was correct and the response was pretty much 'meh whatever- used a calculator to check'.

I can certainly see the benefit of the calculator and think it is an awesome tool (esp, as you say, for the big combos) but I think too many people these days fail to 'do the leg work' and actually bother to learn how it all works and why.

I guess I'm just old fashioned (despite only being 32) - I feel exactly the same about 'normal' calculators. Too many of my students go straight for the calculator for even very very simple calculations (10 x 3 or 2+5) and always believe EVERYTHING it says. I actually watched one of my students the other day multiply 5 by 3 and then happily tell me it was 150 and really struggled to see why he had to 'check it' when I asked him to:whip:


----------



## eeji

yeah, its all Ads and Debbies fault! :Na_Na_Na_Na: 

....tis a fantastic tool though! :2thumb:


----------



## Ssthisto

It is a brilliant tool - but, of course, it can only calculate what it knows.

If you want to know what you'll get when you cross your Palmetto to your Toffee... it can't manage it until it knows what those are, but if you're told that Palmetto is recessive and Toffee is dominant and only heterozygous animals exist at this time, you can work out for yourself what the expected results are.


----------



## mangonmeg

*cheers*

ok thanks for that , what would i get if i added a blizzard female to the picture


----------



## bothrops

mangonmeg said:


> ok thanks for that , what would i get if i added a blizzard female to the picture


 
Bloodred motley x blizzard


All would be Normal het diffused, motley, charcoal and amel


----------



## vetdebbie

bothrops said:


> Hehehe:no1:
> 
> It was more the fact that I'd gone to the effort of explaining long hand why it was correct and the response was pretty much 'meh whatever- used a calculator to check'.
> 
> I can certainly see the benefit of the calculator and think it is an awesome tool (esp, as you say, for the big combos) but I think too many people these days fail to 'do the leg work' and actually bother to learn how it all works and why.
> 
> I guess I'm just old fashioned (despite only being 32) - I feel exactly the same about 'normal' calculators. Too many of my students go straight for the calculator for even very very simple calculations (10 x 3 or 2+5) and always believe EVERYTHING it says. I actually watched one of my students the other day multiply 5 by 3 and then happily tell me it was 150 and really struggled to see why he had to 'check it' when I asked him to:whip:


 
I totally see your point - even if I do stare into space and move my lips when doing mental arthmetic which makes my clients given me funny looks :blush:

Re being old fashioned - you're younger than me, and what is really funny is that I'm younger than madaboutreptiles..............


----------



## vetdebbie

Ssthisto said:


> It is a brilliant tool - but, of course, it can only calculate what it knows.
> 
> If you want to know what you'll get when you cross your Palmetto to your Toffee... it can't manage it until it knows what those are, but if you're told that Palmetto is recessive and Toffee is dominant and only heterozygous animals exist at this time, you can work out for yourself what the expected results are.


The other thing with corn-only type people is that they tend not to understand dominant morphs at all, and if they only use corncalc they tend to be very confused by tessera (and I'm guessing Buf when it becomes more widespread). Ads is silently cursing those two genes as it measn he is going to have to completely redo the code for corncalc as it only works for recessives. He had to fudge motley/stripe and amel/ultra as it was.


----------



## paulh

vetdebbie said:


> The other thing with corn-only type people is that they tend not to understand dominant morphs at all, and if they only use corncalc they tend to be very confused by tessera (and I'm guessing Buf when it becomes more widespread). Ads is silently cursing those two genes as it measn he is going to have to completely redo the code for corncalc as it only works for recessives. He had to fudge motley/stripe and amel/ultra as it was.


I haven't seen the source code so do not know the inner workings of the program. But I have written my own genetics calculator. (Interface stinks, but that is another issue.) My experience is that dominant and codominant mutants are no harder to handle than recessive mutants.

The results with dominant mutant genes are simply the mirror image of recessive mutant genes. And codominant mutant genes are easiest of all because each genotype has a different phenotype.


----------



## Chunk247

Could you work out what i would get from these, not worrying about unknown hets for now (apologies in advance for these)

Amel - Snow
Amel - Anery
Amel - Goldust Motley


----------



## bothrops

Chunk247 said:


> Could you work out what i would get from these, not worrying about unknown hets for now (apologies in advance for these)
> 
> Amel - Snow
> Amel - Anery
> Amel - Goldust Motley


 
amel x snow

100% amel het anery




Amel x anery

100% normal het anery het amel (though with this pairing you're very likely to find the parents will have hidden hets of each mutation. A snow would prove both parents are het for the others mutation, an amel in the litter would prove the anery is het amel and an anery in the litter will prove the amel is het anery)


amel x golddust motley

50% amel het caramel het motely
50% ultramel het caramel het motley


----------



## cree

Can someone here shed some light on this for me?
The more I look at it, it seems to me that the original 3 Tesseras surely must be heterozygous for Tessera not homozygous. Anyone else got any thoughts on the subject?


----------



## eeji

as far as I know, yes the originals are hets because they had to do a het tessera x het tessera test to see if homozygous had a different phenotype and also to determine whether it was a codominant or dominant morph.


----------



## michellew

Can you suggest pairings for next year please - we like a surprise and like visual results
Amel male
Normal male het amel
normal male (unknown hets)
Pastel ghost male (someone has said he may be ultra anery but can't get a decent pic that really shows his colours)
Snow male het stripe
Miami male
Also have a male normal motley / stripe het hypo, anery & caramel who should be big enough

Amel female x2
Butter female
Caramel female
Normal female het amel
Snow female
Snow female het stripe
Rootbeer female

Thanks :notworthy:


----------



## C.Bruno

could someone answer...

Amber Het Amel (poss het Anery) too Carolina?? thanks :2thumb:


----------



## Ssthisto

michellew said:


> Can you suggest pairings for next year please - we like a surprise and like visual results
> Amel male
> Normal male het amel
> normal male (unknown hets)
> Pastel ghost male (someone has said he may be ultra anery but can't get a decent pic that really shows his colours)
> Snow male het stripe
> Miami male
> Also have a male normal motley / stripe het hypo, anery & caramel who should be big enough
> 
> Amel female x2
> Butter female
> Caramel female
> Normal female het amel
> Snow female
> Snow female het stripe
> Rootbeer female


Rootbeer: I wouldn't breed that to anything other than a creamsicle ratsnake or another rootbeer ratsnake. Maybe to a Great Plains Rat if you wanted to increase the "not-corn" appearance.

And for the rest, I'd match like to like as much as possible - snow is Anery Amel, so breed it to something else with Anery and/or Amel, for example.



C.Bruno said:


> could someone answer...
> 
> Amber Het Amel (poss het Anery) too Carolina?? thanks :2thumb:


Easy one. Carolina is "normal" so it doesn't contribute anything special to the pot, and barring hidden hets it means there will be no visual offspring in this pairing (because there are no dominant morph traits involved). 

Amber is Caramel plus Hypo, so all of the offspring will be het Caramel and het Hypo; because the parent is het amel, all offspring are POSSIBLE het Amel. I wouldn't bother adding in the Anery because it's only a possible het in the parent.

Resulting in normals het Caramel, Hypo, poss het Amel. 
Of course, if you DO get any visuals, it shows that your Carolina was het for those visual traits.


----------



## mstypical

Ok, could someone have a look at my sig, and tell me what babies I could get, and which would be the best two to breed together? 

Thanks


----------



## cornmorphs

C.Bruno said:


> could someone answer...
> 
> Amber Het Amel (poss het Anery) too Carolina?? thanks :2thumb:


I know ssthisto replied, but just to add, long term amber, anery, amel in one snakes is awesome.
i'll get some pics up at some point, add blood into it, then its real mental


----------



## Aled

hi mate what offspring would be produced if you breed a bloodred het lavender to a candy cane x okeetee corn?


----------



## bothrops

Aled said:


> hi mate what offspring would be produced if you breed a bloodred het lavender to a candy cane x okeetee corn?


candy cane x okeetee = 'normal het amel' (i.e. the two snakes have been selectively bred for _opposite_ characteristics and so the result is a bog standard normal that carries 'amel' from the candycane, but has no candycane label itself)


so

bloodred het lav x normal het amel

100% normal het bloodred 50% poss het lav and amel



:2thumb:


----------



## dotti

*morphs??*

Hi.

I am very impressed with you all and how you all understand the morphs and breeding, however I am having a real blank spot and don't seem to get it at all?????

:2wallbang:


I have the following corn snakes, and wanted to breed them next year and didn't know what to put with what to produce what (if you know what i mean!) and also what other ones i would need to purchase. i bascially would like to reproduce what they are already if that is possible? please explain very simply.......:crazy:

1 x male strawberry snow
1 x male pastal
1 x female butter
1 x female snow
1 x female hypo
1 x female carolina
1 x anery 
1 x lavender
1 x ghost

Many thanks and I really do appreciate anyones time in helping me out.:notworthy:


----------



## Ssthisto

dotti said:


> Hi.
> 
> I am very impressed with you all and how you all understand the morphs and breeding, however I am having a real blank spot and don't seem to get it at all?????
> 
> :2wallbang:
> 
> 
> I have the following corn snakes, and wanted to breed them next year and didn't know what to put with what to produce what (if you know what i mean!) and also what other ones i would need to purchase. i bascially would like to reproduce what they are already if that is possible? please explain very simply.......:crazy:
> 
> 1 x male strawberry snow
> 1 x male pastal
> 1 x female butter
> 1 x female snow
> 1 x female hypo
> 1 x female carolina
> 1 x anery
> 1 x lavender
> 1 x ghost
> 
> Many thanks and I really do appreciate anyones time in helping me out.:notworthy:


If you want to make more of the same, then:

Breeding the female snow to the male strawberry snow will make all snows.
Breeding the female hypo to the male pastel should make all Hypo het Anery - unless your Pastel is a pastel-anery and not a pastel-ghost.
To make butters you'll need a male that is at least het Amel and Caramel.

Basically, breeding like to like will produce more babies like that.
Breeding one to something different will produce normals (AKA "Carolina") barring hidden hets or overlapping genes. 
For example, breed a butter (amel caramel) to a ghost (anery hypo), and you'd get all normals.
Breed a butter (amel caramel) to a snow (amel anery) and you'll get all Amels.


----------



## dotti

*morphs*

hiya, thanks for that, sooooooooooooo

does breeding a male and female lavender produce lavenders??

and if you breed a male and female butter does that produce butters

or

do you have to beed a butter and caramel to produce butters?

many thanks.


----------



## Ssthisto

Yup, lavender to lavender will make at LEAST lavender (if they carry other traits, you might get other results - for example, if they're both het Amel you might get Opals - Amel Lavenders - too).

Butter to Butter = Butter. 

Caramel to Butter = Caramel het Amel.


----------



## dotti

*corns*

cool, considering i work ina veteinary lab you would think i would understand all this lol!!


----------



## mstypical

I have one, if anyone would like to help me! 

I have 10 corns and one I have reserved for collection, if I list them, could somebody tell me what I could/will get? The hets are what I have been told by each breeder, I don't know if they are even possible to be 'het' for, but here goes:

2 Normal (carolina) males
1 Hypo Lavender male

1 snow, female
1 amelanistic stripe, het lavender, caramel, female
1 amelanistic, het snow, female
1 anerythristic, het bloodred, female
1 amber motley stripe, female
1 anerythristic stripe, het motley, ghost, female
1 butter, het motley, female
1 okeetee, het amelanistic, female

Looking at my own list I think I need some more colourful males :hmm:

I don't want to breed every female, I just want to choose which will make the prettiest babies :flrt:

Thank you in advance :notworthy:


----------



## Ssthisto

mstypical said:


> 2 Normal (carolina) males
> 1 Hypo Lavender male
> 
> 1 snow, female
> 1 amelanistic stripe, het lavender, caramel, female
> 1 amelanistic, het snow, female
> 1 anerythristic, het bloodred, female
> 1 amber motley stripe, female
> 1 anerythristic stripe, het motley, ghost, female
> 1 butter, het motley, female
> 1 okeetee, het amelanistic, female
> 
> Looking at my own list I think I need some more colourful males :hmm:


Genetically speaking, the Carolinas are a "blank" - you could test-breed to see if they have any hets (statistically, they might be het for amel, anery and/or motley ... or none of the above).

That leaves your Hypo Lavender male, and barring hidden hets, here are the expected results:

*Hypo Lav X Snow* = 
Carolina het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Lavender

*Hypo Lav X Amel Stripe het Caramel Lavender* = 
Carolina het Amel, Hypo, Stripe, Lavender (poss het caramel) 
Lavender het Amel, Hypo, Stripe (poss het caramel).

*Hypo Lav X Amel het Anery = *
Carolina het Amel, Hypo, Lavender (poss het anery)

*Hypo Lav X Anery het Bloodred =*
Carolina het Anery, Hypo, Lavender (poss het bloodred)

*Hypo Lav X Amber Motley Stripe =*
Hypo het Caramel, Lavender, Motley (if your amber mot-stripe is actually an amber mot-het-stripe, you'd have a 50/50 chance of het stripe_ instead of _motley)

*Hypo Lav X Anery Stripe het Hypo* (a stripe CANNOT be het Motley) = 
Carolina het Anery Hypo Lavender Stripe
Hypo het Anery Lavender Stripe

*Hypo Lav X Butter het Motley =*
Carolina het Amel, Caramel, Hypo, Lavender (poss het motley)

*Hypo Lav X Normal het Amel* (okeetee acts as "normal") =
Carolina het Hypo Lavender (poss het amel, may show okeetee-ish wide borders or bright, strong orange background colouring)


----------



## mstypical

Ssthisto said:


> Genetically speaking, the Carolinas are a "blank" - you could test-breed to see if they have any hets (statistically, they might be het for amel, anery and/or motley ... or none of the above).
> 
> That leaves your Hypo Lavender male, and barring hidden hets, here are the expected results:
> 
> *Hypo Lav X Snow* =
> Carolina het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Lavender
> 
> *Hypo Lav X Amel Stripe het Caramel Lavender* =
> Carolina het Amel, Hypo, Stripe, Lavender (poss het caramel)
> Lavender het Amel, Hypo, Stripe (poss het caramel).
> 
> *Hypo Lav X Amel het Anery = *
> Carolina het Amel, Hypo, Lavender (poss het anery)
> 
> *Hypo Lav X Anery het Bloodred =*
> Carolina het Anery, Hypo, Lavender (poss het bloodred)
> 
> *Hypo Lav X Amber Motley Stripe =*
> Hypo het Caramel, Lavender, Motley (if your amber mot-stripe is actually an amber mot-het-stripe, you'd have a 50/50 chance of het stripe_ instead of _motley)
> 
> *Hypo Lav X Anery Stripe het Hypo* (a stripe CANNOT be het Motley) =
> Carolina het Anery Hypo Lavender Stripe
> Hypo het Anery Lavender Stripe
> 
> *Hypo Lav X Butter het Motley =*
> Carolina het Amel, Caramel, Hypo, Lavender (poss het motley)
> 
> *Hypo Lav X Normal het Amel* (okeetee acts as "normal") =
> Carolina het Hypo Lavender (poss het amel, may show okeetee-ish wide borders or bright, strong orange background colouring)


All carolinas... a little disappointing! I was hoping I might get lavenders from the lavender x amel stripe pairing, and I thought I might get something special from the lavender x amber motley stripe.... hmm might have to invest in some more snakes :2thumb:

Thank you


----------



## Ssthisto

I take it you didn't notice the second line below the ones who have genes that match up?

You'd get about half lavenders from the Lavender X Amel stripe het Lav pairing.

In all cases, the chances are equal of what you get (otherwise I'd have popped percentages on there!). 

Your Hypo Lavender X Amber Motley Stripe would as I said produce all hypos.


----------



## mstypical

Ssthisto said:


> I take it you didn't notice the second line below the ones who have genes that match up?
> 
> You'd get about half lavenders from the Lavender X Amel stripe het Lav pairing.
> 
> In all cases, the chances are equal of what you get (otherwise I'd have popped percentages on there!).
> 
> Your Hypo Lavender X Amber Motley Stripe would as I said produce all hypos.


Ooh yes, sorry about that, I reply first and digest second 

I think I will match those up when the time comes, going to be a while yet and for all I know hatchlings could well be going for a fiver by then :whistling2:


----------



## bothrops

mstypical said:


> I have one, if anyone would like to help me!
> 
> I have 10 corns and one I have reserved for collection, if I list them, could somebody tell me what I could/will get? The hets are what I have been told by each breeder, I don't know if they are even possible to be 'het' for, but here goes:
> 
> 2 Normal (carolina) males
> 1 Hypo Lavender male
> 
> 1 snow, female
> 1 amelanistic stripe, het lavender, caramel, female
> 1 amelanistic, het snow, female
> 1 anerythristic, het bloodred, female
> 1 amber motley stripe, female
> 1 anerythristic stripe, het motley, ghost, female
> 1 butter, het motley, female
> 1 okeetee, het amelanistic, female
> 
> Looking at my own list I think I need some more colourful males :hmm:
> 
> I don't want to breed every female, I just want to choose which will make the prettiest babies :flrt:
> 
> Thank you in advance :notworthy:


 
Assuming they have no unknown hets, then if you breed either of your carolina males to any female then the results will be all normal looking but the offspring will be 100% het for any trait the female is visual for and 50% het any trait the female is het for.

e.g.

carolina x anery het bloodred

All carolina 100% het anery 50% poss het bloodred


So, if we look at the hypo lavender male then the following results are expected:

to the snow, = all normal het amel, anery, hypo, lavender

to the amel stripe, het lavender, caramel = 
50% lavender het amel, stripe, hypo 50% poss het caramel
50% carolina het lavender, amel, stripe, hypo 50% poss het caramel

To the amelanistic, het snow (AKA amel het anery) = 
all normal het amel, hypo, lavender 50% poss het anery

To the anery het bloodred = 
all normal het anery, lavender, hypo, 50% poss het bloodred


To the amber motley stripe (AKA hypo caramel motley stripe) = 

All hypo het caramel, lavender. 50% of the offspring will be het stripe and 50% will be het motley (all offspring will be either one or the other!)


To the butter, het motley = 
all carolina het caramel, amel, lavender, hypo 50% poss het motley 


To the okeetee het amel =
all carolina het lavender, hypo 50% poss het amel






Regarding the anery stripe, het motley, ghost - This is actually an impossible genetic combination - a true stripe can not be 'het motley', therefore either the female is not het motley or it is not a stripe and is a stripey looking 'motley stripe'.

If it is a true stripe then it is 'anery stripe het hypo' ('ghost' is anery and hypo together so if it is already visually anery it isn't 'het ghost', it's 'het hypo')....

lavender hypo x anery stripe het hypo = 
50% hypo het lavender, anery, stripe
50% carolina het hypo, lavender, anery, stripe


If it is a 'stripey motley' then 

lavender hypo x anery motley stripe het hypo =
50% hypo het lavender, anery
50% carolina het lavender, anery, hypo
and, as before, all of the above will either be het motley OR het stripe





Hope that helps!




*EDIT - Dammit, Ssthisto, you beat me again,.....mind you, I am cooking tea and watching 'Border Patrol' at the same time constructing replies! (two suitcases full of shinglebacks, blue tongues, black headed pythons and an albino darwins python..grrrrrr..bloke got 18 months)*


----------



## mstypical

Thanks Bothrops and Ssthisto, that does help


----------



## dotti

*morphs*

me again:blush:

what would i get if a bred a butter motley with a goldust stripe het motley??

many thanks


----------



## eeji

because stripe het motley is impossible (otherwise it would be a visual motley) it would be butter motley x gold dust stripe - you'd get half butter motleys and half golddust motleys


----------



## adamholtom85

Hi what would i get if i bred a amel to a candycane?
Thanks


----------



## bothrops

adamholtom85 said:


> Hi what would i get if i bred a amel to a candycane?
> Thanks


100% amels.


'candycane' is just a selectively bred amel, bred to have a completely white background and bright red saddles (BTW, if your 'candycane' doesn't fit this description, it *isn't* a candycane)

If you breed a candycane to a normal amel - you will 'undo' its selective breeding and create normal amels, some of which may be more 'high white' than others.

It is the people not understanding this, breeding their candycanes and expecting candycane offspring, therefore selling them as 'candycanes' that have caused the issues of so many British 'candycanes' to be so low quality that they shouldn't be considered candycanes at all.


----------



## adamholtom85

Thanks for the advise mate, just one more thing

I want to have snow strips now i already have a female snow but what strip morph should i put with her to get this other than a snow strip?


----------



## Ssthisto

If your snow is not a stripe or het for stripe, you cannot get striped babies.

If your snow is a stripe, put her to a normal stripe het anery and amel if you want the greatest variety of stripe options (normal, amel, anery AND snow stripes).


----------



## bothrops

adamholtom85 said:


> Thanks for the advise mate, just one more thing
> 
> I want to have snow strips now i already have a female snow but what strip morph should i put with her to get this other than a snow strip?


 
Unless your snow is already het stripe then you will be unable to get snow stripes in the first generation.

Snow stripe would be the fastest route to gaurantee snow stripes in the second generation, but any stripe morph will give you the hets you need in the first gen.

snow x snow stripe

100% snows all het stripe. Breed back to the snow stripe = 50% snows, 50% snow stripes




You could do similiar with an amel stripe het anery or a anery stripe het amel, but there will be less chances of hitting the snow stripe in the second generation


----------



## adamholtom85

Thank you both you both have been a great help


----------



## ..Pete..

Hi. 

I know this is a tricky one, but what would I get (roughly) from a creamsicle male x hypomel female. Genetics unknown. 

I know the hatchlings will be hybrids so should I look at getting another male to put with my butter and pewter hatchlings i picked up at donny. Any suggestions on morph to go for to get good results will be welcomed. 

I'm new to this breeding stuff so I'm finding it a little confusing.


----------



## Ssthisto

From creamsicle X hypo you'd get Rootbeer Ratsnakes het for Amel and Hypo.

If you want to produce rootbeers, then he's a perfectly good male for your butter (for Creamsicles het Caramel) or pewter (for rootbeer het amel, charcoal, bloodred). If you don't want to produce rootbeers, you need a different male.


----------



## ..Pete..

Might get another male anyway. Don't know what morph though, I was tempted by an Amber yesterday. 

My concern is breeding a creamsicle with another corn giving hybrids, not proper corns


----------



## whasupppp

*i have*

blood stripe 100% het anery
66% PH Amel, Hypo
50% PH Lavender

what are the babies i could make what would he be best to breed with, what are the possibilities?


----------



## SpiritSerpents

whasupppp said:


> blood stripe 100% het anery
> 66% PH Amel, Hypo
> 50% PH Lavender
> 
> what are the babies i could make what would he be best to breed with, what are the possibilities?



Try to find a hypo plasma het amel (to test the hets) or an opal diffused (again to test for some of those hets) and that was at the very least you will end up with diffused babies 100% het stripe, lavender, etc. I would go with the hypo plasma (het amel if you can find one, otherwise "just" a hypo plasma) so that you get bloodred het stripe, lavender, hypo. And if any of those hets prove out, you might find yourself with hypo bloods het lavender stripe, or plasmas het hypo stripe, or even more hypo plasmas het stripe.


----------



## Spiff

i have a female snow het motley coming the end of the month to put with my normal to see if he has any hets but what would you recommend putting with her the following year im liking the look of betters and lavenders and also like stripes?

if i was to get a striped butter female and male lavender motley what could i produce by putting the male lavender to the female snow and the female butter?


----------



## SpiritSerpents

A lavender motley to a snow het motley will give you normals het lavender, motley, anery, amel and motleys het lavender, anery, amel. 

A lavender motley to a butter stripe will give you motley-stripes het lavender, amel, caramel.


----------



## Spiff

i have also wondered that with so many different hets being produced from one clutch how do you tell which of the snakes have what hets? or will all the normals be het for everything?


----------



## bothrops

Spiff said:


> i have also wondered that with so many different hets being produced from one clutch how do you tell which of the snakes have what hets? or will all the normals be het for everything?


 
In those matings all the snakes in the litter will carry the mutations (be 'het' for them).

In others only some will, and for recessive mutations, you'll only be able to tell which ones by breeding.


----------



## Spiff

gotcha!:2thumb:


----------



## Sziren

Looking for some help here.

Male is Amel Motley/Stripe
Female 1 is an amel
Female 2 is a reverse okatee

Also have access to a butter stripe male.

What would the possible outcomes be?
Thank you.


----------



## bothrops

Sziren said:


> Looking for some help here.
> 
> Male is Amel Motley/Stripe
> Female 1 is an amel
> Female 2 is a reverse okatee
> 
> Also have access to a butter stripe male.
> 
> What would the possible outcomes be?
> Thank you.


amel motley het stripe x amel

= 100% amel approximately half of them will be het stripe and the other half will be het motley. Which is which is impossible to tell without breeding



amel motely het stripe x reverse okeetee

= exactly the same as above. (reverse okeetee is a selectively bred amel and if you are just breeding it to a normal amel then you ''undo' all the selective breeding and the offspring will be 'just amels'


amel motley het stripe x butter stripe

50% amel motley het stripe het caramel
50% amel stripe het caramel


----------



## Sziren

Thank you for your help


----------



## vetdebbie

bothrops said:


> amel motley het stripe x amel
> 
> = 100% amel approximately half of them will be het stripe and the other half will be het motley. Which is which is impossible to tell without breeding
> 
> 
> 
> amel motely het stripe x reverse okeetee
> 
> = exactly the same as above. (reverse okeetee is a selectively bred amel and if you are just breeding it to a normal amel then you ''undo' all the selective breeding and the offspring will be 'just amels'
> 
> *
> amel motley het stripe x butter stripe*
> 
> 50% amel motley het stripe het caramel
> 50% amel stripe het caramel


Both those were male - so good luck with that pairing :whistling2::2thumb:


----------



## bothrops

vetdebbie said:


> Both those were male - so good luck with that pairing :whistling2::2thumb:


Well spotted :lol2: :blush:


----------



## Gemmatony10

Thanks so much to Sziren for posting that question for me :2thumb:

So if I keep and Amel motley (male) and the (female) Amel and reverse Okeetee, what other male could I get to pair up with one of the females, to get something other than amels and normals.

Thanks in Advance (I suck at corn morphs lol) :bash:


----------



## bothrops

Gemmatony10 said:


> Thanks so much to Sziren for posting that question for me :2thumb:
> 
> So if I keep and Amel motley (male) and the (female) Amel and reverse Okeetee, what other male could I get to pair up with one of the females, to get something other than amels and normals.
> 
> Thanks in Advance (I suck at corn morphs lol) :bash:


There is only one morph you can get to pair with your amel and reverse okeetee and not just get amels. That is 'tessera'. This is a dominant morph and will show in the first generation if bred to a normal.

All other mutations in corn snakes are recessive meaning that the animal needs two copies (one from each parent) in order to express that trait.



However, because of the way corn snake breeding has gone, it is likely that your amel and/or RO may carry other mutations. The most likely of which is anery.


Therefore, breeding them to an anery het amel would give a chance to find out if they were.

If they are 'het anery' then you will get 'normals, amels, anerys and snows'. If they are not, then you will get normals and amels, all het anery.


----------



## Gemmatony10

thank you :2thumb:


----------



## eeji

bothrops said:


> There is only one morph you can get to pair with your amel and reverse okeetee and not just get amels. That is 'tessera'. This is a dominant morph and will show in the first generation if bred to a normal.
> 
> All other mutations in corn snakes are recessive meaning that the animal needs two copies (one from each parent) in order to express that trait.


....or ultra/ultramel - amel x ultra = all ultramels, amel x ultramel = half amel, half ultramel.

....although the ultra gene came from grey ratsnakes making them hybrids


----------



## gld

I'm thinking few years from now for my amel stripe/cube to either be bred with the one of the following corns that I like; plasma, lavender, anery or any other ideas of a good pairing with my amel stripe. Thanks :2thumb:


----------



## Gemmatony10

Need help with this one please...bought as Amel


----------



## eeji

it is indeed an amel (one of my favourites!) :2thumb:


----------



## spinnin_tom

cornmorphs- i've seen you mention anery A. are there more than one anery colours?


----------



## eeji

there are two 'named' types, anery A which was the first found and is the 'regular' anery, and there is anery B more better known as Charcoal.

Caramel is also a form of anerythrism and some people would also consider lavender to be too but I'm not convinced on that one. Cinder (originally 'Z' or anery C) was also first thought to be anerythristic too but that was soon disproved when the red came out


----------



## SpiritSerpents

There are several, actually. Anery A, charcoal (anery b), lavender and actually caramel. Some might include cinder but it appears to be more hypoerythristic than anerythristic.


----------



## spinnin_tom

eeji said:


> there are two 'named' types, anery A which was the first found and is the 'regular' anery, and there is anery B more better known as Charcoal.
> 
> Caramel is also a form of anerythrism and some people would also consider lavender to be too but I'm not convinced on that one. Cinder (originally 'Z' or anery C) was also first thought to be anerythristic too but that was soon disproved when the red came out





SpiritSerpents said:


> There are several, actually. Anery A, charcoal (anery b), lavender and actually caramel. Some might include cinder but it appears to be more hypoerythristic than anerythristic.


thanks you two
i didn't realise caramel was in fact an anery


----------



## shaun1729

just to see what i mite get from my breeding ?


1.0.0 snow
1.0.0 anery stripe het amel , hypo

0.1.0 normal
0.1.0 stripe het anery,amel,hypo
0.1.0 anery het amel,hypo
0.1.0 amel stripe het caramel

0.0.1 amel
0.0.1 snow
0.0.1 normal

wish list:mf_dribble::notworthy:

(1.0.0 golddust stripe or ultramel stripe het caramel )


----------



## SpiritSerpents

Based on that list of animals.... you can get normals, aneries, amels, and snows predominantly and all those flavors potentially in stripe, as well as some hypos and ghosts (also potentially in stripe)


----------



## guinness1979

I'm looking to breed my female creamsicle and was wondering if anyone had any suggestions that wouldn't just make more Creamsicles?

I was considering something along the lines of Ghost or Snow, or even a cinnamon or Bairds Rat (or another variety of Rat) as it is already a hybrid.

Any help/advice would be appreciated

Shane


----------



## paulh

guinness1979 said:


> I'm looking to breed my female creamsicle and was wondering if anyone had any suggestions that wouldn't just make more Creamsicles?


There is only one way -- don't breed her. Breed something else without hybrid ancestry.


----------



## Reptilian.Shadow

Normal Motley Female with Amel Corn Male
Inferno Female with Amel Corn Male
Miami Female with Amel Corn Male


----------



## bothrops

Reptilian.Shadow said:


> Normal Motley Female with Amel Corn Male


All normal 100% het motley and amel



Reptilian.Shadow said:


> Inferno Female with Amel Corn Male


All amel 100% het sunkissed



Reptilian.Shadow said:


> Miami Female with Amel Corn Male


All normal (NOT Miami) 100% het amel


----------



## scouse cham

blizzard to amel het blizzard :2thumb:


----------



## SpiritSerpents

scouse cham said:


> blizzard to amel het blizzard :2thumb:



Amels het charcoal and blizzards. That one is super simple.


----------



## Chunk247

Creamsicle x Normal?


----------



## manda88

Chunk247 said:


> Creamsicle x Normal?


Normals het amel, but be aware that as the creamsicle is a hybrid, the babies won't be pure corns and you will have to advertise them as such when it comes to selling them.


----------



## Chunk247

I know, just seeing what they will be and wondered if the rat gene would affect the morphs


----------



## bothrops

Chunk247 said:


> I know, just seeing what they will be and wondered if the rat gene would affect the morphs


Sort of and no.


They affect it in that you won't get 'normal corns' you''ll get 'rootbeers' which is the name for a normally coloured GP's rat x Red rat (corn).

However, Great Plains rat snakes and red rat snakes are similar enough genetically that most of the basic morphs are compatible. This is true for amelanism and an amelanistic rootbeer is called a creamsicle.

All the offspring from a creamsicle x corn will be 100% rootbeers het creamsicle.


----------



## clob91

I havent had a chance to look through the thred as it is rather long, but i have compiled a list of the morphs i am most interested in and was wandering if you could tell me about them ( like what i would need to produce them etc)

Bit longer than i thought, but here goes:

striped butter
butter motley
fire stripe
ice
fluorescent orange
blue motley
hypo striped lavender
sunglow motley
Coral snow
stripe
striped amel
striped miami motley
striped ultramel
ultramel charcoal
blizzard

just starting to try and get my head around corn morphs and genetics, but finding it difficult thus far.:blush:

thanks 

chloe


----------



## eeji

striped butter = amel + caramel + stripe Butter Stripe Corn Snake - Ians Vivarium
butter motley = amel + caramel + motley http://iansvivarium.com/morphs/species/elaphe_guttata/butter_motley
fire stripe = amel + diffused + stripe Fire Stripe Corn Snake - Ians Vivarium
ice = lava + anery Ice Ghost Corn Snake - Ians Vivarium
fluorescent orange = genetically an amel, selectively bred for bright colours Fluorescent Orange Corn Snake - Ians Vivarium
blue motley = dilute + anery + motley Dilute Anery Motley Corn Snake - Ians Vivarium
hypo striped lavender = hypo + lavender + stripe Hypo Lavender Stripe Corn Snake - Ians Vivarium
sunglow motley = amel + motley - selectively bred for low white, which motley will do to amel anyway to a point Sunglow Motley Corn Snake - Ians Vivarium
Coral snow = amel + anery + hypo Coral Corn Snake - Ians Vivarium
stripe = stripe Stripe Corn Snake - Ians Vivarium
striped amel = amel + stripe Amel Stripe Corn Snake - Ians Vivarium
striped miami motley = miami + motley (pinstripe/q-tip) Miami Motley Corn Snake - Ians Vivarium
striped ultramel = ultramel (which is het ultra/het amel) + stripe Ultramel Stripe Corn Snake - Ians Vivarium
ultramel charcoal = ultramel + charcoal Ultramel Charcoal Corn Snake - Ians Vivarium
blizzard = amel + charcoal Blizzard Corn Snake - Ians Vivarium

the 'ingredients' needed in red. To make those morphs BOTH parents must pass down each ingredient, except in the case of ultramel where one parent must pass amel and the other ultra.


----------



## bothrops

It's not an overly easy post to answer, but I'll give it a go.

Basically, if you want to produce an animal that carries one of the 'base' morphs (assuming you're only interested recessive mutations), then both parents have to carry that morph. The minimum requirement is that both parents are 'heterozygous' for that morph (carries a copy of the recessive mutation, but because it is recessive, the animal doesn't show it). However, you get better odds if one of the parents is visual for the morph (carries two copies).

Lets take 'amel' for example.

To produce an amel baby you need any of the following:


normal het amel x normal het amel

This would give approximately 1 in 4 babies showing 'amel'



normal het amel x amel

This would give approx 1 in 2 babies showing amel


amel x amel 

This would give 100% of babies as amels.






This basic rule stands for ALL the base morphs. Just remember that BOTH parents need to carry AT LEAST one copy of the mutation in order for you to get a chance of that mutation showing visually in the offspring.

As you get more and more complicated combinations, the above odds still stand, but the chances of each mutation all cropping up in a single snake decreases each time...

i.e. if you wanted 'snows' (amel and anery together) and you may do a 'visual x het' for each morph as a mating.

amel het anery x anery het amel

expected offspring:

25% normal het anery het amel
25% anery het amel
25% amel het anery
25% snow



Other 'morphs' are not actual 'morphs' in the sense that they are inherited simply as above. These are ones that are called 'selectively bred morphs'.

What this means is that the snakes have been bred over a number of generations to have a particular trait.

For example, all of the animals below are genetically 'amels', but have been selectively bred to have a particular trait:

amel = 'amelanistic' - i.e. 'no melanin' - in other words, genetically has no black pigment.


candy cane = an amel corn that has been selectively bred to have clean white back ground and bright red saddles. Should have no orange/yellow tinges in the white background

sunglow = an amel corn that has been selectively bred to have no white at all over the snake. Should have a bright orange background and clean red saddles.

Reverse Okeetee = an Amel corn that has been bred to have a bright orange background, bright red saddles and thick white borders around the saddles.


Any amel that doesn't fit exactly into one of the three above categories would simply be called an 'amel'

The same goes for normals:

Carolina/normal/wild type = 'bog standard' corn

Miami = a normal corn that has been selectively bred to have a grey background and brick red saddles (a candy cane is an amelanistic miami)

Okeetee = A normal corn that has been selectively bred to have a bright orange background, bright red saddles and thick black borders (a reverse okeetee is an amel okeetee)



When you have a selectively bred morph, you HAVE to bred it to another animal of the same selectively bred morph otherwise, you will 'undo' the selective breeding and the offspring will just be 'normal' versions:

sunglow x sunglow = sunglow
miami x miami = miami
candycane x miami het amel = candycane and miamis
okeetee x okeetee = okeetee

but:

miami x okeetee = carolina
sunglow x candycane = amel
sunglow x okeetee het amel = amels and carolinas

etc etc 


OK - that should give you enough information to understand the basics.

What I'll do for you now is break down your list into each of their base morphs. This should help you work out what you would need to pair up to get them (though in 99% of cases, it'll probably be easier to buy the morph straight out!)






clob91 said:


> I havent had a chance to look through the thred as it is rather long, but i have compiled a list of the morphs i am most interested in and was wandering if you could tell me about them ( like what i would need to produce them etc)
> 
> Bit longer than i thought, but here goes:
> 
> striped butter (stripe, amel, caramel)
> butter motley (Motley, amel, caramel)
> fire stripe (diffused, amel, stripe)
> ice (anery, lava)
> fluorescent orange (selectively bred amel)
> blue motley (never heard of it!)
> hypo striped lavender (hypo, stripe and lavender (funnily enough!:whistling2
> sunglow motley (selectively bred amel, motley)
> Coral snow (amel, anery, hypo)
> stripe (base morph)
> striped amel (amel and stripe)
> striped miami motley (see below! *)
> striped ultramel (see below! **)
> ultramel charcoal (see below! **)
> blizzard (charcoal and amel)
> 
> just starting to try and get my head around corn morphs and genetics, but finding it difficult thus far.:blush:
> 
> thanks
> 
> chloe




So, to 'create' any of the above morphs, you will need to breed two parents together that have AT LEAST one copy of each base morph each.

However, there is a slight extra bit of info!

* stripe and motley exist on the same bit of the gene but the motley gene is dominant to stripe.
Motley can be anything from very clear 'ladder like' pattern through to 'almost striped'. However, 'stripe' is a morph in its own right.
This makes the genetics a little more complicated!
A 'striped motley' to me is a motley that is at the stripey end of the motley spectrum.

A 'motley het stripe' could have any version of the motley pattern but carries the stripe gene.

NOTE: You can't have a normal animal that is both het stripe and het motley.


** the two base morphs of 'ultra' and 'amel' also exist at the same place on the gene and so you can't have two copies of each in the same snake. However, this time, if you have one of each mutation at the snake looks different rather than looking like one or the other.
So if you breed an amel to an ultra ALL the babies will be 'ultramel'

If you breed an ultramel to an ultramel you will get 25% amel, 25% ultra and 50% ultramel!





Easy isn't it! :whistling2:


Cheers


Andy


----------



## bothrops

:lol2:

Ian got there first (but I put in more detail :Na_Na_Na_Na

:2thumb:


----------



## eeji

bothrops said:


> :lol2:
> 
> Ian got there first (but I put in more detail :Na_Na_Na_Na
> 
> :2thumb:


Your post is well better than mine! :notworthy:


----------



## bothrops

eeji said:


> Your post is well better than mine! :notworthy:


Except you'd heard of a 'blue motley'!


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

bothrops said:


> It's not an overly easy post to answer, but I'll give it a go.
> 
> Basically, if you want to produce an animal that carries one of the 'base' morphs (assuming you're only interested recessive mutations), then both parents have to carry that morph. The minimum requirement is that both parents are 'heterozygous' for that morph (carries a copy of the recessive mutation, but because it is recessive, the animal doesn't show it). However, you get better odds if one of the parents is visual for the morph (carries two copies).
> 
> Lets take 'amel' for example.
> 
> To produce an amel baby you need any of the following:
> 
> 
> normal het amel x normal het amel
> 
> This would give approximately 1 in 4 babies showing 'amel'
> 
> 
> 
> normal het amel x amel
> 
> This would give approx 1 in 2 babies showing amel
> 
> 
> amel x amel
> 
> This would give 100% of babies as amels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This basic rule stands for ALL the base morphs. Just remember that BOTH parents need to carry AT LEAST one copy of the mutation in order for you to get a chance of that mutation showing visually in the offspring.
> 
> As you get more and more complicated combinations, the above odds still stand, but the chances of each mutation all cropping up in a single snake decreases each time...
> 
> i.e. if you wanted 'snows' (amel and anery together) and you may do a 'visual x het' for each morph as a mating.
> 
> amel het anery x anery het amel
> 
> expected offspring:
> 
> 25% normal het anery het amel
> 25% anery het amel
> 25% amel het anery
> 25% snow
> 
> 
> 
> Other 'morphs' are not actual 'morphs' in the sense that they are inherited simply as above. These are ones that are called 'selectively bred morphs'.
> 
> What this means is that the snakes have been bred over a number of generations to have a particular trait.
> 
> For example, all of the animals below are genetically 'amels', but have been selectively bred to have a particular trait:
> 
> amel = 'amelanistic' - i.e. 'no melanin' - in other words, genetically has no black pigment.
> 
> 
> candy cane = an amel corn that has been selectively bred to have clean white back ground and bright red saddles. Should have no orange/yellow tinges in the white background
> 
> sunglow = an amel corn that has been selectively bred to have no white at all over the snake. Should have a bright orange background and clean red saddles.
> 
> Reverse Okeetee = an Amel corn that has been bred to have a bright orange background, bright red saddles and thick white borders around the saddles.
> 
> 
> Any amel that doesn't fit exactly into one of the three above categories would simply be called an 'amel'
> 
> The same goes for normals:
> 
> Carolina/normal/wild type = 'bog standard' corn
> 
> Miami = a normal corn that has been selectively bred to have a grey background and brick red saddles (a candy cane is an amelanistic miami)
> 
> Okeetee = A normal corn that has been selectively bred to have a bright orange background, bright red saddles and thick black borders (a reverse okeetee is an amel okeetee)
> 
> 
> 
> When you have a selectively bred morph, you HAVE to bred it to another animal of the same selectively bred morph otherwise, you will 'undo' the selective breeding and the offspring will just be 'normal' versions:
> 
> sunglow x sunglow = sunglow
> miami x miami = miami
> candycane x miami het amel = candycane and miamis
> okeetee x okeetee = okeetee
> 
> but:
> 
> miami x okeetee = carolina
> sunglow x candycane = amel
> sunglow x okeetee het amel = amels and carolinas
> 
> etc etc
> 
> 
> OK - that should give you enough information to understand the basics.
> 
> What I'll do for you now is break down your list into each of their base morphs. This should help you work out what you would need to pair up to get them (though in 99% of cases, it'll probably be easier to buy the morph straight out!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, to 'create' any of the above morphs, you will need to breed two parents together that have AT LEAST one copy of each base morph each.
> 
> However, there is a slight extra bit of info!
> 
> * stripe and motley exist on the same bit of the gene but the motley gene is dominant to stripe.
> Motley can be anything from very clear 'ladder like' pattern through to 'almost striped'. However, 'stripe' is a morph in its own right.
> This makes the genetics a little more complicated!
> A 'striped motley' to me is a motley that is at the stripey end of the motley spectrum.
> 
> A 'motley het stripe' could have any version of the motley pattern but carries the stripe gene.
> 
> NOTE: You can't have a normal animal that is both het stripe and het motley.
> 
> 
> ** the two base morphs of 'ultra' and 'amel' also exist at the same place on the gene and so you can't have two copies of each in the same snake. However, this time, if you have one of each mutation at the snake looks different rather than looking like one or the other.
> So if you breed an amel to an ultra ALL the babies will be 'ultramel'
> 
> If you breed an ultramel to an ultramel you will get 25% amel, 25% ultra and 50% ultramel!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Easy isn't it! :whistling2:
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> Andy


 
WOW! :gasp:


----------



## sliphex

*amel het lavender and hypo lavender.*

hey people just a quick one, just got 13 lovely eggs from my hypo lavender female, her mate was a amel het lavender male, anyone know what kind of results i should expect? 

.ross.


----------



## eeji

you should expect roughly half lavender and half normal (all will be het hypo and amel).

Also because amel and hypo are among the most common hets you may see some surprises in the form of amel, hypo lav, opal or hypo opal (none of these are guaranteed though)


----------



## sliphex

thanks for the reply fingers crossed for the hypo opal haha but with only 13 eggs it would be like winning the lottery


----------



## reptFAN

*snows ??*

guys what are the genetics behind a a bumblegum snow? and a green blotched snow? whats the results if bred together? Thank in advance for any help


----------



## bothrops

reptFAN said:


> guys what are the genetics behind a a bumblegum snow? and a green blotched snow? whats the results if bred together? Thank in advance for any help


 
Genetically the two are identical. They are both selectively bred versions of a snow corn (which is visual amel and visual anery in the same snake)

If you bred those together you will produce 100% snow corns. Some may be slightly pinker, some might have slightly 'greener' edges to their saddles than others, but all will be 'just' snow corns as by breeding the two 'lines' together you effectively undo the selective breeding that has got them to the stage they can be considered 'bubblegum' or 'green blotched'.



That said, if you're lucky, you may get a high pink snow with nice greenish yellow saddle borders amongst the offspring.


----------



## reptFAN

Hi thanks for the reply. So what would be a good choice to breed with a snow? i know the easy answer is whatever i like but i never considered owning a corn until two turned up at mine last night.


----------



## SpiritSerpents

I wouldn't breed a snow. They're very common. The *only* things you can make with a snow are normals, amels, aneries, and more snows.


----------



## bothrops

SpiritSerpents said:


> I wouldn't breed a snow. They're very common. The *only* things you can make with a snow are normals, amels, aneries, and more snows.


One the other hand, they are common because they are popular.

I still see 'normals' for sale in pet shops for £50-80 and plenty of people still buy them.



Personally, If I could ensure that I had a local exotics shop that would take my babies (most will only pay £5-10 each for low end hatchlings as they are usually around that price on the trade lists), then I would bred a nice normal het amel and anery to your snow. That way you get a nice mix of normals, aneries, amels and snows in your litter.


----------



## eeji

snows make a great base for projects because theres so many combinations containing amel and anery, so I would put it with a (xxxx) and breed for hets.

(xxxx) = 
diffused/granite/fire/whiteout for whiteout project
stripe/amel stripe/anery stripe/snow stripe for snow stripe project
hypo/hypo amel/ghost/coral for coral project
lavender/opal/moonstone/snopal for snopal project
etc etc etc....


----------



## SpiritSerpents

A part of me keeps forgetting corns aren't as common across the pond.  Here? "Normal" snows are almost impossible for the pet stores to move. Had one local one last year say they'd take all my aneries, but only 1 snow as the last snow they had took 6 months to sell... at $25.


----------



## eeji

last season all my snows and amels sold for £10 each


----------



## Miss-Katie

Very confusing.

If I bred a Amel het lav to a Butter Motley I would get

100% Amel het Lavender Caramel Motley yes ? And then on breeding the hatchlings back together I would get a selection of

Amel
Opal
Butter
Opal Motley
Butter Motley
Lavender Butter
Lavender Butter Motley

I was "thankfully" given this info a couple of years ago from Adsclarke, which I am forever grateful for. I will be honest and say that I still can not work that corncalc out :lol2: But this is the route and project that I have planned.

However, I am lead to believe that if I want a blizzard, which I do btw :whistling2: That I need to breed Amel with Charcoal.

My question is....what would the outcome be if I bred my Amel het Lav with a Charcoal Or should I really be waiting to use just Amel with no hets ?

Also, while I am in the asking mode, what would the outcome of a Carolina x Charcoal or a Carolina x Butter Motley be ?

Thanks for reading.


----------



## eeji

Amel het lav x charcoal = 100% normal het amel, charcoal, 50% poss het lav
carolina (normal) x charcoal = 100% normal het charcoal
carolina x butter motley = 100% normal het amel, caramel, motley


----------



## Miss-Katie

Thank you : victory: Blizzards are now on the to buy/own list and stick with my original project hoping for the Lavender butter/Motley.


----------



## 2996bailey

Creamsicle(male) and reverse okeetee(female)?
Mail me the result please?
Thanks!


----------



## bothrops

2996bailey said:


> Creamsicle(male) and reverse okeetee(female)?
> Mail me the result please?
> Thanks!



creamsicle = albino hybrid (corn x emoryi)
Reverse Okeetee = selectively bred amel corn


Breed them together and you will get......


100% creamsicles.


:no1:


----------



## eeji

bothrops said:


> creamsicle = albino hybrid (corn x emoryi)
> Reverse Okeetee = selectively bred amel corn
> 
> 
> Breed them together and you will get......
> 
> 
> 100% creamsicles.
> 
> 
> :no1:


.....and a waste of an RO


----------



## leenjaidec

I've got a female snow and a male pewter 
What would be produced


----------



## bothrops

leenjaidec said:


> I've got a female snow and a male pewter
> What would be produced


Pewter is visual diffused and visual Charcoal

Snow is visual amel and visual anery


Anery type A (AKA 'Anery') and anery type B (AKA 'Charcoal') are incompatible.


Therefore your offspring will be


100% normal het anery, amel, charcoal and diffused.


----------



## leenjaidec

So what would be best to go with pewter


----------



## leenjaidec

Also if I got a hypo amel does that mean I stand a chance of blizzard and hypo pewter


----------



## eeji

hypo amel x pewter = all normals het hypo, amel, charcoal, diffused

If you kept a few pairs back and bred them together when they are old enough then you have a chance of hypo pewter (albeit a small one)


----------



## bothrops

leenjaidec said:


> So what would be best to go with pewter



If you want to have visual animals then I would advise something that is het charcoal and het diffused(bloodred)




leenjaidec said:


> Also if I got a hypo amel does that mean I stand a chance of blizzard and hypo pewter


Only if your pewter is het amel or het hypo.



Basically, when it comes to almost all corn morphs, in order to see a morph in the litter, BOTH parents need to have AT LEAST one copy of the morph in question. 

Let's take Amel as an example:

Amel x amel = 100% amel

amel x het amel = 50% normal het amel, 50% amel

het amel x het amel = 75% normal (poss het amel) 25% amel

normal x amel = 100% normal het amel

normal x het amel = 100% normal poss het amel




This will work if you swap amel for any other recessive mutation.


For example if you had a pewter and bred it to an amel het charcoal het diffused:

take each gene separately:

amel x not amel = normal het amel
charcoal x het charcoal = 50% charcoal 50% het charcoal
diffused x het diffused = 50% diffused 50% het diffused.


Then combine all the above info to get your litter

25% normal het charcoal, amel, diffused
25% charcoal het amel, diffused
25% diffused het amel, diffused
25% pewter het amel





Breed a pewter from this litter back to the amel het pewter parent to get

amel het diffused, charcoal x diffused charcoal het amel

12.5% normal het amel, charcoal, diffused
12.5% amel het charcoal, diffused
12.5% charcoal het diffused, amel
12.5% diffused het amel, charcoal
12.5% diffused charcoal het amel (AKA pewter het amel)
12.5% amel charcoal het diffused (AKA blizzard het diffused)
12.5% amel diffused het charcoal (AKA fire het charcoal)
12.5% amel, diffused, charcoal (AKA whiteout)


:2thumb:


----------



## Miss-Katie

See when it is put like that it looks simples and does not need explaining LMAO I went cockeyed on the 3rd set of genetics :whistling2::lol2:


----------



## powerpuffruth

*Hi Cornmorphs probally an old one but ...*

*
What do I get if I breed these two snakes (sorry I don't know if the're het for anything) You can be scientific I did genetics at uni :2thumb:

Corn Snake Amelanistic Phase








**Corn Snake Antheristic Phase*


----------



## SpiritSerpents

An amelanistic (homozygous amel) to an anerythristic (homozygous anery) will, barring any shared hets, give ALL normals het anery and amel.


----------



## bothrops

powerpuffruth said:


> *
> What do I get if I breed these two snakes (sorry I don't know if the're het for anything) You can be scientific I did genetics at uni :2thumb:
> 
> Corn Snake Amelanistic Phase
> image
> **Corn Snake Antheristic Phase*
> image



If you can't do a simple dihybrid cross between two animals, each homozygous for one of the two traits, you obviously didn't pay enough attention in your lectures! :whistling2:

:lol2:


----------



## powerpuffruth

bothrops said:


> If you can't do a simple dihybrid cross between two animals, each homozygous for one of the two traits, you obviously didn't pay enough attention in your lectures! :whistling2:
> 
> :lol2:


Sorry I don't know how corn genetics works at all I know blizzards lack both the above genes so how do you breed one of them? would you not get some babies that didn't get the amel off mum and didn't get the anery off dad so were blizzard? OR are are they 2 different genes and NOT alleles of the same gene? Explain don't LOL at me naughty :naughty:


----------



## bothrops

powerpuffruth said:


> Sorry I don't know how corn genetics works at all I know blizzards lack both the above genes so how do you breed one of them? would you not get some babies that didn't get the amel off mum and didn't get the anery off dad so were blizzard? OR are are they 2 different genes and NOT alleles of the same gene? Explain don't LOL at me naughty :naughty:


 
Apologies - I was just teasing.

Amel and Anery are seperate mutations at seperate loci.

Amel and anery do not make a blizzard, they make a 'snow'.

(A blizzard is a combination of amel and 'charcoal' (sometimes referred to as 'anery B' which is another mutation again, also at a completely different locus to 'Anery A' - or 'Anery' as we like to call it!)


Homozygous anery x homozygous amel 

= 100% normal heterozygous anery and amel.




To get a visual snow, both parents must carry at least one copy of the amel allele AND the anery allele.


So:

*snow x snow* = 100% snow

*snow x amel het anery* = 50% snow, 50% amel het anery

*snow x anery het amel* = 50% snow, 50% anery het amel

*amel het anery x anery het amel* = 25% normal het anery and amel, 25% amel het anery, 25% anery het amel, 25% snow

*snow x normal het anery and amel* = 25% normal het anery and amel, 25% amel het anery, 25% anery het amel, 25% snow

*normal het anery and het amel x normal het anery and het amel* = 9/16 normal poss het amel and anery, 3/16 amel poss het anery, 3/16 anery poss het amel, 1/16 snow




For full detials of the base morphs and their mode of inheritance for corns (and other species) this is your best bet Guide to Reptile Morphs • Ians Vivarium


----------



## powerpuffruth

Thankyoo  That was very helpful I think I got confused because I thought it was more simple than it is. I thought anery and amel were coded for by the same gene and normal, anery and amel were just 3 different forms of the same allele but now looking at the marking on a corn snake I realise I was being quite the numpty and they are obviously different genes with one coding for the black markings and one coding for the red DOH!!!  Thanks for the clear explaination much appreciated.

:flrt:


----------



## eeji

corn genetics is pretty easy stuff to work out because all but a few are at separate loci with most being recessive.

Shared loci:
Motley and stripe - both recessive to normal, stripe recessive to motley
Hypo and strawberry - both recessive to normal, codominant with each other
amel and ultra - both recessive to normal, codominant with each other (ultra originated in grey rat snakes, so technically making a hybrid)

Pied sided is _probably_ linked to diffused somehow because so far it hasn't been isolated into a non-diffused corn.

non-recessive:
Tessera - dominant over normal
Buf - dominant over normal
Masque - dominant over normal? (someone help me on this one!) This was once thought to be a trait of diffused but has since been isolated (grey head pattern and a 'clear line' through the middle of the belly chequers)


----------



## KEVO81

*corn morphs*

hi what do you think the outcome of the following pairing please?

male hypo stripe het caramel

female butter motley het stripe

thanks


----------



## bothrops

KEVO81 said:


> hi what do you think the outcome of the following pairing please?
> 
> male hypo stripe het caramel
> 
> female butter motley het stripe
> 
> thanks



25% motley het stripe, caramel, hypo, amel
25% stripe het caramel, hypo, amel
25% caramel motley het stripe, hypo, amel
25% caramel stripe het hypo, amel


----------



## marcel27

What would I possibly get from breeding a male cubed het amel, lavender, diffused and a female anery cubed motley, thanks :2thumb:


----------



## bothrops

marcel27 said:


> What would I possibly get from breeding a male cubed het amel, lavender, diffused and a female anery cubed motley, thanks :2thumb:


cube is a selectively bred stripe. Motley is dominant to stripe. Therefore I'm not entirely sure what a 'cubed motley' is.

Assuming it is actually genetically motley and that it is simply selectively bred to look cubed and that you 'cube' is actually genetically a stripe, then the expected litter is:


100% motley het stripe, anery 50% poss het amel, lavender, diffused


----------



## marcel27

Cheers, I was told she was cubed motley, she has both the cubed patterning on her as well as motley, genetically yes she is a motley.


----------



## Drodge

*Slightly different question*

I have a trio of corns that have bred this year, and am waiting for the eggs to hatch in the next week or two. The pairings were: 1.0 amel stripe het caramel anery, 0.1 butter stripe "multiple hets" and a 0.1 amel stripe. The first egg has started pipping and looks like a snow from the 0.1 amel stripe. My issue is not working out what will be made, genetically, but how to identify the young correctly. I assume the multiple hets in the butter stripe include anery, but can't be sure until a snow hatches from that clutch. However if it is het anery I could get snow stripes, xanthic snow stripes and potentially more snowy looking young based on hidden hets from her and possibly the male as well. I was wondering how to spot the, sometimes subtle, differences between them?

Help would be appreciated,

Dave


----------



## SpiritSerpents

Wait a shed or two before determining whether an animal is a snow or amel. Late bloomers are not uncommon. My super dark hypo Nautley hatched out looking like an amel.

Unfortunately, without breeding trials on each baby, you won't be able to identify the xanthic snows.


----------



## lance baillie

*cubed stripe corns*

male is a bloodred cubed/stripe
female is amel stripe het for blood 
will i get bloodred stripe corns


----------



## eeji

lance baillie said:


> male is a bloodred cubed/stripe
> female is amel stripe het for blood
> will i get bloodred stripe corns


yes (they will be het amel)

...and normal stripes (het amel and diffused)


----------



## lance baillie

thx eeji


----------



## SpiritSerpents

The fun part is trying to figure out which are the diffused stripes and which are the normal stripes. If often requires breeding trials.


----------



## powerpuffruth

*Blizzards*

What can i breed with a blizzard to possible get some blizzards in the clutch. I know if I bred for example an amel I'd get 100% amel het blizzard but what would give me some blizzards (possibly) in the 1st clutch? Cheers guys hope I've been clear enough :2thumb:


----------



## eeji

to get more blizzards you'd need something with charcoal and amel, either **** or het.

eg.....
blizzard
charcoal het amel
amel het charcoal
pewter het amel
fire het charcoal
whiteout
etc etc etc......


----------



## powerpuffruth

eeji said:


> to get more blizzards you'd need something with charcoal and amel, either **** or het.
> 
> eg.....
> blizzard
> charcoal het amel
> amel het charcoal
> pewter het amel
> fire het charcoal
> whiteout
> etc etc etc......



So I need either a charcoal hetrozygous for amel OR an amel hetrozygous for charcolal but to get blizzards with one breeding the other snake MUST carry both genes. Is that right 

Is pewter just a version of charcoal?


----------



## SpiritSerpents

Each parent must have at *least* one copy of both the desired genes. As you have a blizzard already, that parent has the required copies. The other parent can be a normal het amel, charcoal OR an amel het charcoal OR a charcoal het amel OR a blizzard at minimum.

A pewter is a diffused charcoal.


----------



## powerpuffruth

Thanks Megan that's what I thought :notworthy:


----------



## platypus

*Creamsicles*

I understand in theory it is do-able but in practicality can you get back to base great plains rats form creamsiles . ie ceamsicle to normal then breed the multi Het babies together and get lots of genes both visual and hidden .


----------



## bothrops

platypus said:


> I understand in theory it is do-able but in practicality can you get back to base great plains rats form creamsiles . ie ceamsicle to normal then breed the multi Het babies together and get lots of genes both visual and hidden .


Not do-able at all, either practically or theoretically.

Once the two animals have been mixed there is no way to 'undo' it.

You can't unscramble an egg.

Even if you bred the creamsicle to a great plains and then kept breeding nothing but pure great plains to the offspring, all you'd end up with is generations of 'rootbeers' (the non-albino version of the creamsicle)


----------



## platypus

*Creamsicles*

So that answers the question on the corns that I saw advertised as normals het creamsicles then. They just looked liked normal corns in the pic but I guess they are not . Thanks for your help Peter


----------



## bothrops

platypus said:


> So that answers the question on the corns that I saw advertised as normals het creamsicles then. They just looked liked normal corns in the pic but I guess they are not . Thanks for your help Peter


Those would be 'rootbeer het creamsicle'.


----------



## SnakeBreeder

platypus said:


> So that answers the question on the corns that I saw advertised as normals het creamsicles then. They just looked liked normal corns in the pic but I guess they are not . Thanks for your help Peter


TBH this really boils my piss when people advertise hybrids as corns.:blush:
You see it all the time on forums and facebook.


----------



## bothrops

SnakeBreeder said:


> TBH this really boils my piss when people advertise hybrids as corns.:blush:
> You see it all the time on forums and facebook.


..and also at shows!

I've see all sorts of rubbish on labels...

such as...

hypo anery 100% het ghost ???

Normal het candycane ?????

stripe 100% het motley ?????

normal het okeetee ??????


All genuinely seen at shows!


----------



## SnakeBreeder

bothrops said:


> ..and also at shows!
> I've see all sorts of rubbish on labels...
> such as...
> hypo anery 100% het ghost ???
> Normal het candycane ?????
> stripe 100% het motley ?????
> normal het okeetee ??????
> All genuinely seen at shows!


I don't doubt it for a second.
Yep there are some "special" people out there.
My friend once bought an albino cali king, at the Doncaster show, that had a lable on saying it was a blizzard corn, because he was looking for a blizzard.
He was not even new to the hobby and already had blizzards at home !
So I reminded him that at shows, as in everything else, it was very much a case of "buyer beware".


----------



## Brandon2010

*Advice*

Hello i have just bred my ghost motley female with a amel male what morphs will i be expecting ?


----------



## bothrops

Brandon2010 said:


> Hello i have just bred my ghost motley female with a amel male what morphs will i be expecting ?



All normal.

They will also all be het motley, het amel and het anery and het hypo.



However, with corn snakes as they are, many will have unexpected hets. The babies will tell you if either parent has unexpected hets...

any anery baby will prove out the amel male is het for anery
any hypo baby will prove out the amel male is het for hypo
any motley baby will prove out the amel male is het for motley

any amel baby will prove out the ghost motley female is het for amel


Combinations of the above will prove the the various hets.


If both snakes turn out to be het for all the traits found in the other parent then you could get...


normals
motley
anery
hypo
amel
anery motley
ghost motley
amel motley
hypo amel motley
hypo motley
hypo amel
ghost
snow
hypo snow (coral?)
hypo snow motley
snow motley


(I've probably missed some combos, but you get the jist!)


----------



## londonjoe

here is few for ya

snow x normal
snow x motley
snow x tessera
snow x amel


----------



## SpiritSerpents

londonjoe said:


> snow x normal
> snow x motley
> snow x tessera
> snow x amel


The following are not taking into account unknown/hidden hets.

Snow x normal = normals het anery, amel.
Snow x motley = normals het anery, amel, motley
Snow x tessera = ~50% tesseras het anery, amel and ~50% normals het anery, amel
Snow x amel = amels het anery.


----------



## londonjoe

thanks


----------



## londonjoe

snow x anery stripe:2thumb:


----------



## SpiritSerpents

londonjoe said:


> snow x anery stripe:2thumb:


All aneries het amel stripe.


----------



## Fier37

Hey, what would I get with...

Reverse Okeetee male x gold dust 
Reverse Okeetee male x blizzard
Reverse Okeetee x Snow stripe
Reverse okeetee x Fire stripe

Thanks :2thumb:


----------



## bothrops

Fier37 said:


> Hey, what would I get with...
> 
> Reverse Okeetee male x gold dust
> Reverse Okeetee male x blizzard
> Reverse Okeetee x Snow stripe
> Reverse okeetee x Fire stripe
> 
> Thanks :2thumb:



Reverse Okeetee = selectively bred amel. Unless you are breeding to another RO or Okeetee then we can consider it as 'just' an amel.

The ultra gene originally came from a corn x grey rat, so a gold dust is techically a hybrid.

so


amel x gold dust (ultramel caramel)

50% amel het caramel
50% ultramel het caramel




amel x blizzard

100% amel het charcoal


amel x snow stripe

100% amel het anery stripe



amel x fire stripe 

100% amel het diffused stripe


----------



## Fier37

Brilliant, thanks 

I'm looking into breeding next year and will be using the reverse okeetee (amel) as the male, what would be a nice girl to pair him with to produce a nice visual offspring?

And you mentioned a RO as just being classes as an amel is not being bred to another RO, so what would the results be from RO x RO?


----------



## bothrops

Fier37 said:


> Brilliant, thanks
> 
> I'm looking into breeding next year and will be using the reverse okeetee (amel) as the male, what would be a nice girl to pair him with to produce a nice visual offspring?
> 
> And you mentioned a RO as just being classes as an amel is not being bred to another RO, so what would the results be from RO x RO?


Reverse okeetee x reverse okeetee = 100% Reverse okeetee.


The 'maximum' you can get with a RO is more RO's (or amels) that are het for whatever else you breed them to.

However, your RO may turn out to be het anery, hypo, motley or something else but you couldn't know this unless you knew the parents of the RO.



The only ways you could get more than 'just amels/ROs' would be 

a) to get lucky on matching the hidden hets your RO may have with a female that also carries or is visual for the same morph.

or 

b) invest in one of the (currently quite expensive) dominant morphs such as buf or tessera.

c) go for ultra (100% ultramel babies) or ultramel (50% ultramel, 50% amel)


----------



## Fier37

What are the current prices for a female Tessera and Buf?


----------



## powerpuffruth

*How does this work?*

Someone I know just bred a blizzard to a candycane and got all amels and snows hows that posible please?


----------



## powerpuffruth

I don't get where the "anery a" gene came from to make the pattern on the the snows ?


----------



## eeji

powerpuffruth said:


> Someone I know just bred a blizzard to a candycane and got all amels and snows hows that posible please?


they will both be het anery


----------



## Spiff

Normal het snow possible het motley x caramel stripe?


Also the offspring from that put to a snow het motley?

Thanks


----------



## eeji

all normals het caramel stripe ph amel anery motley.

If the normal proves to be het motley, you'll get approx half motleys (they will be het motley and stripe, which gives visual motley)


----------



## Spiff

I have a female snow het motley female that I have paired with my normal male so was going to keep a male from the clutch to put back to her. I was also looking at getting a caramel strip female next month and was wondering what to put with the caramel ideal I would like to produce stripes but don't know much about th cartel gene?


----------



## powerpuffruth

eeji said:


> they will both be het anery


How can a blizzard be het anery A ? thought that was a dominate gene xxx explain pleasie xxxx :flrt:


----------



## SpiritSerpents

powerpuffruth said:


> How can a blizzard be het anery A ? thought that was a dominate gene xxx explain pleasie xxxx :flrt:


The vast majority of corn snake morphs are *recessive*. 

Charcoal is a gene that removes red pigment. Anery A is a gene that removes red pigment. They are not at the same locus, and produce slightly different phenotypes. Thus, it is perfectly possible for a charcoal to be het anery, and an anery to be het charcoal. That's how we get platinums (hypo charcoal anery) and powders (hypo charcoal anery amel).


----------



## powerpuffruth

SpiritSerpents said:


> The vast majority of corn snake morphs are *recessive*.
> 
> Charcoal is a gene that removes red pigment. Anery A is a gene that removes red pigment. They are not at the same locus, and produce slightly different phenotypes. Thus, it is perfectly possible for a charcoal to be het anery, and an anery to be het charcoal. That's how we get platinums (hypo charcoal anery) and powders (hypo charcoal anery amel).



Awesome thanks for explaining :notworthy:


----------



## JoeJ

anery het amel stripe x snow
anery het amel stripe x amel

thanks


----------



## bothrops

JoeJ said:


> anery het amel stripe x snow
> anery het amel stripe x amel
> 
> thanks


anery het amel stripe x snow

1/2 anery 100% het amel 50% possible het stripe
1/2 snow 50% possible het stripe



anery het amel stripe x amel

1/2 normal 100% het anery and amel, 50% poss het stripe
1/2 amel 100% het anery, 50% poss het stripe


----------



## scrappydoo

*Ghost Motley and...?*

Hi there

Not sure if this is the place to ask and I'm probably going to sound dense as I can't get my head around the Corn Calculator....

I have a female Ghost Motley corn, I'm sure I did know her parentage at some point but it's lost in the annuls of time. Is there any particular 'morph' of corn you might recommend putting her with? 

I have a Carolina male whom I love dearly and I could put them together, but I don't really want to produce too many Carolina babies (I know I'd produce some, regardless of pairing) as I see people struggling to sell them. It's actually not about them not being worth much but more about not wanting lots of babies growing on that I can't sell or give away.

It seems that corn 'predicting' is a bit more complicated than Royal's and without knowing my motley's parents I probably can't predict anything but I'd appreciate some input. Thanks


----------



## SpiritSerpents

If you pair the ghost motley with a striped snow, at minimum you'd end up with anery motley/stripe babies het for hypo amel. This would also test your female for amel and stripe.

Other options that will not give you *any* normal babies:

Anery
Motley
Hypo
Stripe
Ghost
Snow
Anery motley
Hypo motley
Anery stripe
Hypo stripe
Snow motley
Snow stripe
Ghost motley
Ghost stripe
Moonstone (anery lavender)
Amber (hypo caramel)

Basically anything that is *visually* anery, hypo and/or motley or stripe will produce a clutch of eggs with no normals in it.


----------



## scrappydoo

That's totally terrific, thank you so much :notworthy:


----------



## ZoeDobson

*Genetics help*

Hi I only have young snakes so know breeding is a long way off...just really interested in the genetics side of things. I have a male corn amel het caramel stripe and a female ghost motley (gets unknown). I'm wanting butters ideally what would I need to match with either if any to get butters? And what would I get from the pair if bred? Also can anyone recommend a good genetics book specifically for corns?
Thanks Zoe


----------



## powerpuffruth

ZoeDobson said:


> Hi I only have young snakes so know breeding is a long way off...just really interested in the genetics side of things. I have a male corn amel het caramel stripe and a female ghost motley (gets unknown). I'm wanting butters ideally what would I need to match with either if any to get butters? And what would I get from the pair if bred? Also can anyone recommend a good genetics book specifically for corns?
> Thanks Zoe


You could breed your amel het caramel to a female amel het caramel and 1/4 would be a butter
or if you bred him to a butter female 1/2 would be butters 
or you could breed him to a female Caramelhttp://iansvivarium.com/morphs/species/elaphe_guttata/caramel het Amel and 1/4 would be butters again.

The ghost motley is not really of use if it's butters your after. Hope this is helpful


----------



## ZoeDobson

Thanks that's brilliant info. What would you recommend my ghost girl with, not very helpful as I don't know hets, just looking for interesting morphs really. Maybe an impossible question.


----------



## ZoeDobson

Also apologies of this sounds stupid would the female butter need to have any specific hets to get half butters with the amel het caramel? Thanks again


----------



## powerpuffruth

ZoeDobson said:


> Thanks that's brilliant info. What would you recommend my ghost girl with, not very helpful as I don't know hets, just looking for interesting morphs really. Maybe an impossible question.


Well your Ghost motley actually is visually showing 3 different genes anyway Anerythristic, Hypomelanistic and Motley which means he has 2 copies of each

You would need to decide what you want/like which contains some of the above genes if you have a look on Ians Vivarium page where he lists all the different morphs of corn snakes and tell me what appeals I could advise you on how to breed that morph. : victory:


----------



## powerpuffruth

ZoeDobson said:


> Also apologies of this sounds stupid would the female butter need to have any specific hets to get half butters with the amel het caramel? Thanks again


It's not stupid at all! Your amel het caramel has 2 genes for amel and 1 gene (het) for caramel. 

A butter corn is a snake with 2 genes for amel and 2 genes for caramel. So not the butter wouldn't need any hets because it carries 2 copies of the genes you want.

So the butter female would alway give her offspring 1 caramel gene and 1 amel gene. 

Your male would 50% give his offspring 1 caramel gene and 1 amel gene. and 50% give his offspring 1 normal gene and 1 amel gene.

the 50% that get the 1 caramel gene and 1 amel gene from dad would be butters

the 50% that get 1 normal gene and 1 amel gene from dad would be amels.

Does that help?


----------



## ZoeDobson

That's great thank you


----------



## powerpuffruth

Just out of interest I did a cross on the 2 you have and unfortunatly youdon't really get anything visually interesting but here's the results.

*Male:* Amel het Caramel, Stripe
*Female:* Ghost, Motley ( Anery, Hypo, Motley )

*Phenotype:*
1 / 2 Motley het Anery, Amel, Stripe, Hypo 50% poss het. Caramel
1 / 2  Normal het Anery, Motley, Amel, Hypo 50% poss het. Caramel
*Genotype:*
1 / 4 Motley het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Stripe
1 / 4 Motley het Amel, Anery, Caramel, Hypo, Stripe
1 / 4  Normal het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Motley
1 / 4  Normal het Amel, Anery, Caramel, Hypo, Motley
_The output contains corns that have a Motley gene paired with a Stripe gene. 
The pattern may look like a Motley but may have varying influence from the Stripe gene_


----------



## ZoeDobson

Your a superstar and far more clued up than me, do you breed corns? Now I need to find a butter female


----------



## powerpuffruth

I did genetics at university but I'm still learning about corn genetics myself. It's really interesting. I've haven't bred corns yet mine are still to young I have one sub adult amal corn and 2 baby powder corns. There's pictures of them on the "corn snake thread" along with pictures of other peoples lovely corns you should post yours :roll2:


----------



## bothrops

powerpuffruth said:


> Just out of interest I did a cross on the 2 you have and unfortunatly youdon't really get anything visually interesting but here's the results.
> 
> *Male:* Amel het Caramel, Stripe
> *Female:* Ghost, Motley ( Anery, Hypo, Motley )
> 
> *Phenotype:*
> 1 / 2 Motley het Anery, Amel, Stripe, Hypo 50% poss het. Caramel
> 1 / 2  Normal het Anery, Motley, Amel, Hypo 50% poss het. Caramel
> *Genotype:*
> 1 / 4 Motley het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Stripe
> 1 / 4 Motley het Amel, Anery, Caramel, Hypo, Stripe
> 1 / 4  Normal het Amel, Anery, Hypo, Motley
> 1 / 4  Normal het Amel, Anery, Caramel, Hypo, Motley
> _The output contains corns that have a Motley gene paired with a Stripe gene.
> The pattern may look like a Motley but may have varying influence from the Stripe gene_



I'm not sure which calculator you're using (cheat! BTW! :Na_Na_Na_Na but the last sentence is erroneous.


Motley is completely dominant to stripe. A homozygous motley can vary from perfect hurricane to _almost_ completely stripe. A heterozygous 'motley stripe' is visually motley but can also vary from perfect hurricane to almost complete stripe, but it does so completely independently from the stripe allele.

There is no 'influence' from the stripe gene in the motley/stripe phenotype, even a 'varying' influence.

:2thumb:


----------



## powerpuffruth

It was just the standard corn calculator from Ians Vivarium speak to that site and tell him if it's wrong I'm sure he'd like the information.


----------



## powerpuffruth

Also what's hurricane? Like I said I'm still learning.


----------



## powerpuffruth

bothrops said:


> I'm not sure which calculator you're using (cheat! BTW! :Na_Na_Na_Na but the last sentence is erroneous.
> 
> 
> Motley is completely dominant to stripe. A homozygous motley can vary from perfect hurricane to _almost_ completely stripe. A heterozygous 'motley stripe' is visually motley but can also vary from perfect hurricane to almost complete stripe, but it does so completely independently from the stripe allele.
> 
> There is no 'influence' from the stripe gene in the motley/stripe phenotype, even a 'varying' influence.
> 
> :2thumb:


 
Here's the link to his site I'm sure he'd appriciate you telling him where he's gone wrong. the link to the corn calculator is at the top.

Guide to Reptile Morphs - Ians Vivarium Reptile Forum


----------



## bothrops

Ian is a member on here. I'll have a chat, he may disagree with me and he will have seen more corns than me so it will be interesting to explore his thinking.


A hurricane is a motley that has such a 'strong' ladder pattern coupled with strong borders that the spaces between the 'rungs' turn into circles or 'hurricanes'.

It's kind of an 'extreme motley' if you like.

http://iansvivarium.com/morphs/species/elaphe_guttata/hurricane/


----------



## powerpuffruth

bothrops said:


> Ian is a member on here. I'll have a chat, he may disagree with me and he will have seen more corns than me so it will be interesting to explore his thinking.
> 
> 
> A hurricane is a motley that has such a 'strong' ladder pattern coupled with strong borders that the spaces between the 'rungs' turn into circles or 'hurricanes'.
> 
> It's kind of an 'extreme motley' if you like.
> 
> Hurricane Corn Snake - Ians Vivarium Reptile Forum


Let me know what conclusion you come to 

That cross contained so many genes I just used the corn calculator for it and copied the results directly across. So the statement about 'varying' influence is directly off the calculator.


I can calculate the colour morphs myself but as I said I'm still learning and don't know anything about the stripe, tessara or motley genes not had time to read up yet.  It's all very interesting though.


----------



## bothrops

I've invited him to come and contribute. I'm more than happy to be wrong - we're all always learning :2thumb:


(p.s. I hope you realise the 'cheat' comment was tongue in cheek - I have been known to use the odd calculator occasionally myself!)


----------



## powerpuffruth

bothrops said:


> I've invited him to come and contribute. I'm more than happy to be wrong - we're all always learning :2thumb:
> 
> 
> (p.s. I hope you realise the 'cheat' comment was tongue in cheek - I have been known to use the odd calculator occasionally myself!)


Cool will be interesting to find out what conclusion you come to I'm finding corn genetics really interesting theres so many different genes and locus out there. 

(p.s I gathered that from the blue tongue waggly finger guy :2thumb


----------



## eeji

Motley is dominant over stripe so het motley and stripe will look like a motley.
There is a theory that stripe may or may not have some variable influence on the phenotype but nothing has been proven on this. One thing to keep in mind is that a perfectly circled motley patterned corn can still be carrying stripe and a pinstriped motley can be pure motley without the stripe gene. I personally think the only 100% way to know if a motley is het stripe or not is by breeding to a known stripe and seeing what hatches.

Unfortunately I can't take any of the credit for the corn calc as that is separate from Ians Vivarium although we work very closely to complement one another. The man responsible is Adsclarke (he's registered on here and also a moderator on IV) :2thumb:


----------



## bothrops

eeji said:


> Motley is dominant over stripe so het motley and stripe will look like a motley.
> There is a theory that stripe may or may not have some variable influence on the phenotype but nothing has been proven on this. One thing to keep in mind is that a perfectly circled motley patterned corn can still be carrying stripe and a pinstriped motley can be pure motley without the stripe gene. I personally think the only 100% way to know if a motley is het stripe or not is by breeding to a known stripe and seeing what hatches.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't take any of the credit for the corn calc as that is separate from Ians Vivarium although we work very closely to complement one another. The man responsible is Adsclarke (he's registered on here and also a moderator on IV) :2thumb:



Thanks for that Ian, I'm glad we agree on the genetics. I was originally 'taught' that the stripe gene influenced the motley gene and that a 'motley/stripe' heterozygote had a 'striped motley' phenotype.

I then bred a perfect motley to a perfect motley and had perfect motleys and some beautiful full stripes pop out. As the perfect motley adults were proven as both being het stripe and the perfect motley babies where all 66% poss het stripe I did a lot more reading and talking and the general consensus is what I originally said and you've now confirmed.



:2thumb:


----------



## powerpuffruth

eeji said:


> Motley is dominant over stripe so het motley and stripe will look like a motley.
> There is a theory that stripe may or may not have some variable influence on the phenotype but nothing has been proven on this. One thing to keep in mind is that a perfectly circled motley patterned corn can still be carrying stripe and a pinstriped motley can be pure motley without the stripe gene. I personally think the only 100% way to know if a motley is het stripe or not is by breeding to a known stripe and seeing what hatches.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't take any of the credit for the corn calc as that is separate from Ians Vivarium although we work very closely to complement one another. The man responsible is Adsclarke (he's registered on here and also a moderator on IV) :2thumb:


Thanks for replying Ian it's good to get new information it's also nice that the 2 of you agree (seems to happen VERY rarely on this forum  )and 
Congested to you and Adsclsrke on you morph guide and the calculator both are excellent tool I enjoy looking at the corn morphs area of your site I wish I could contribute but I only have one amel and 2 powder corns  Oh and rubbish camera skills x x x


----------



## eeji

i just think it seems to confuse things that the motley pattern can stretch out so much that it resembles a different mutation of the same gene. A nice full striped motley still has a different pattern arrangement than a proper stripe so they are easily distinguished which is which.


----------



## powerpuffruth

eeji said:


> i just think it seems to confuse things that the motley pattern can stretch out so much that it resembles a different mutation of the same gene. A nice full striped motley still has a different pattern arrangement than a proper stripe so they are easily distinguished which is which.


Doubt I could tell the difference :blush:


----------



## tonyb12

bothrops said:


> Thanks for that Ian, I'm glad we agree on the genetics. I was originally 'taught' that the stripe gene influenced the motley gene and that a 'motley/stripe' heterozygote had a 'striped motley' phenotype.
> 
> I then bred a perfect motley to a perfect motley and had perfect motleys and some beautiful full stripes pop out. As the perfect motley adults were proven as both being het stripe and the perfect motley babies where all 66% poss het stripe I did a lot more reading and talking and the general consensus is what I originally said and you've now confirmed.
> 
> 
> 
> :2thumb:


What would i get from:
Powder to blood red diffused
Powder to sunkissed
Powder to butter
Butter to blood red diffused


----------



## bothrops

tonyb12 said:


> What would i get from:
> Powder to blood red diffused
> Powder to sunkissed
> Powder to butter
> Butter to blood red diffused



Powder = anery, amel, charcoal, hypo

Blood red = selectively bred version of the 'diffused' mutation (i.e. it's either 'blood red' or it's 'diffused' but as you've stated blood red, I'll assume it is a blood red.

Butter = amel, caramel



Therefore, your matings are as follows (assuming the animals are not het for unknown traits)




*powder x bloodred*

100% normal het amel, anery, charcoal, hypo, blood




*powder x sunkissed*

100% normal het amel, anery, charcoal, hypo, sunkissed



*powder x butter*

100% amel het anery, charcoal, hypo, caramel


*butter x blood*

100% normal het amel, caramel, blood






As you can see, despite having some nice parents, they all have different mutations to each other. As almost all corn mutations are recessive, and you need to have at least one copy of each mutation in each parent to get visual babies, you can only get normals or possibly amels from those matings.


However, putting some of the babies back to each other would get you a huge range of multicoloured babies!


----------



## tonyb12

bothrops said:


> Powder = anery, amel, charcoal, hypo
> 
> Blood red = selectively bred version of the 'diffused' mutation (i.e. it's either 'blood red' or it's 'diffused' but as you've stated blood red, I'll assume it is a blood red.
> 
> Butter = amel, caramel
> 
> 
> 
> Therefore, your matings are as follows (assuming the animals are not het for unknown traits)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *powder x bloodred*
> 
> 100% normal het amel, anery, charcoal, hypo, blood
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *powder x sunkissed*
> 
> 100% normal het amel, anery, charcoal, hypo, sunkissed
> 
> 
> 
> *powder x butter*
> 
> 100% amel het anery, charcoal, hypo, caramel
> 
> 
> *butter x blood*
> 
> 100% normal het amel, caramel, blood
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, despite having some nice parents, they all have different mutations to each other. As almost all corn mutations are recessive, and you need to have at least one copy of each mutation in each parent to get visual babies, you can only get normals or possibly amels from those matings.
> 
> 
> However, putting some of the babies back to each other would get you a huge range of multicoloured babies!


Thank you for that:2thumb:

I am planning for the future so i might give some of these matches a try then breed back some of the babies when there the right age/weight.

Off topic here but i was reading on a classifieds site that he has hatchlimgs from a 13 month old female and 15 month old male... I didnt think that this would be possible?


----------



## SpiritSerpents

tonyb12 said:


> Off topic here but i was reading on a classifieds site that he has hatchlimgs from a 13 month old female and 15 month old male... I didnt think that this would be possible?


It's possible, but not advisable. After all, I was technically able to have kids at age 11. Doesn't mean my body would have handled being pregnant well.


----------



## jadeybaby

Hi guys, dont know if your still doing this but.... 

I was wondering if there is anything that i can cross with my Amel (exact genetics unknown), to get any differing morphs?

On my own post someone said f he was a het Anery and i got an Anery het Amel, i would get some norms some Amels some Anery's and possibly some Snows... Is there anything else i can get him doing the dirty with??

Thanks

Jade


----------



## powerpuffruth

The only genes your amel definitly has that are "different" is two amel genes as I don't know if it has any other hets its impossible to say what you could get. You could breed it to a snow and if any of the babies were snows you'd know it carried the anery gene but it's likely all the babies would just be amels het for anery. The poster on the other thread was pretty spot on tbh.


----------



## bothrops

^^^^^What she said ^^^^^

:2thumb:




powerpuffruth said:


> The poster on the other thread was pretty spot on tbh.


 
thanks :whistling2:


:2thumb:


----------



## powerpuffruth

bothrops said:


> ^^^^^What she said ^^^^^
> 
> :2thumb:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanks :whistling2:
> 
> 
> :2thumb:


^^^^^ LOL :no1:


----------



## jadeybaby

powerpuffruth said:


> The only genes your amel definitly has that are "different" is two amel genes as I don't know if it has any other hets its impossible to say what you could get. You could breed it to a snow and if any of the babies were snows you'd know it carried the anery gene but it's likely all the babies would just be amels het for anery. The poster on the other thread was pretty spot on tbh.



Hi again, 

I just found out he's het for snow....


----------



## powerpuffruth

jadeybaby said:


> Hi again,
> 
> I just found out he's het for snow....


He can't be "het for snow" because he's already an amel corn.

Snow is a name given to a visual snake that has 2 amel genes and 2 anery genes so it will look yellow and white.

Your snake is a visual amel so will be het for anery. if you breed her/him. 

so it's an amel corn het for anery 

Sooooo if you breed it to a Snow you would get a clutch that was 

1 / 2 visual Amel het Anery and 1 / 2 visual Snow (no hidden hets)

There's still not really a lot of genes to play with but you could also breed it to a caramel corn snake and get some nice butter corns 

bothrops may have some more ideas :2thumb:


----------



## bothrops

I've already explained what you would get from her if she is het anery in the other thread :2thumb:


The fact that you only have amel and anery genes involved with that animal mean that most you can get is amel/anery combinations (i.e. snow).


The only thing that will get something different is tessera as it is a dominant mutation so you will get tessera babies in the first generation if you breed your amel to a tessera. However, tessera are rare and expensive. Breed to a tessera het amel (even rarer and expensive) for the possible amel tessera and breed to a tessera het amel and anery (even rarer) for the possibility of tessera anerys, tessera amels and tessera snows.



Other than that, you'll have to play the long game and look at producing an ordinary litter this time, growing them up and breeding them together to get more interesting litters.


----------



## powerpuffruth

Also Jadeybaby I noticed on the other thread you were interested in snows they are so cheap these days I wouldn't breed one I'd just buy one. Someone on the FB page was selling snow hatchlings earlier this year for £15 each!!


----------



## eeji

....or ultra or ultramel or masque or (if you can find one!) Buf.

amel x ultra = 100% ultramel
amel x ultramel = 50% amel, 50% ultramel
amel x masque = 100% masque OR 50% normal, 50% masque (depending on whether the masque parent is heterozygous or homozygous)
amel x buf = 100% buf OR 50% normal, 50% buf (depending on whether the buf parent is heterozygous or homozygous)

be aware though that ultra originated in grey ratsnakes so technically makes it a hybrid


----------



## scotty667

jadeybaby said:


> Hi again,
> 
> I just found out he's het for snow....


You can't get het for snow unless it's normal het amel and het anery, it's probably was a baby from an amel x snow pairing which would make it amel het anery so your wanna find an anery het amel.


----------



## scotty667

Ok my bad i didn't see another page lol.


----------



## tonyb12

bothrops said:


> I've already explained what you would get from her if she is het anery in the other thread :2thumb:
> 
> 
> The fact that you only have amel and anery genes involved with that animal mean that most you can get is amel/anery combinations (i.e. snow).
> 
> 
> The only thing that will get something different is tessera as it is a dominant mutation so you will get tessera babies in the first generation if you breed your amel to a tessera. However, tessera are rare and expensive. Breed to a tessera het amel (even rarer and expensive) for the possible amel tessera and breed to a tessera het amel and anery (even rarer) for the possibility of tessera anerys, tessera amels and tessera snows.
> 
> 
> 
> Other than that, you'll have to play the long game and look at producing an ordinary litter this time, growing them up and breeding them together to get more interesting litters.


Tessera x cinder?

Just been offered both of these snakes for £240 is it terazzo or the teressa that is the dearer? The tessera is 16 months and cinder 14 months


----------



## powerpuffruth

The babies would all be Tessera patterned normal Coloured snakes Het for cinder I believe I'm sure eeji or bothrops will correct me if I am mistook :blush:


----------



## eeji

most likely will be het tessera (still visual), so you should expect 50% tessera (visual het) and 50% normal, all will be het cinder


----------



## powerpuffruth

How does that work I thought tessera was dominate so all would look tessera explain please Ian


----------



## powerpuffruth

Oh hang on your saying the one he's been offered is probaly only a het I get it x


----------



## eeji

yes, so its got a 50/50 possibility of passing down normal or tessera


----------



## powerpuffruth

eeji said:


> yes, so its got a 50/50 possibility of passing down normal or tessera


got ya x yeah you're probally right x


----------



## tonyb12

Thank you! Im still debating wether to pick these two up, i did promise myself no more snakes for a while but haha.


----------



## snake eater

what would i get if i breed a opal to aneryA any idea of resulting offspring?:2thumb:


----------



## heathster

snake eater said:


> what would i get if i breed a opal to aneryA any idea of resulting offspring?:2thumb:


Id be expecting corn snakes :thumbup:

Sent From My Galaxy S3 Using Tapatalk 2


----------



## vetdebbie

snake eater said:


> what would i get if i breed a opal to aneryA any idea of resulting offspring?:2thumb:


Normals het amel anery lavender.

Unless the parents have hidden hets, which is possible.


----------



## KatieHolly

this is what we have seen mating any idea's what hatchlings we will get from these:

female butter and male caramel
female caramel hypo and male snow
female amel and male caramel
female bloodred stripe and male butter motley

would be interested to know what we could be expecting and if we could be expecting any interesting morphs! exciting!!


----------



## morphtastic

1. Caramels het amel
2. Normals het amel, caramel, anery, hypo
3. Normals het amel, caramel
4. Normal (motley/stripe?)het caramel, blood, amel
unless there are any hidden hets!


----------



## marktheglass

*Amel Stripe*

Looking for a male to pair my girl with, she's an Amel stripe, any ideas for some interesting young ?


----------



## SpiritSerpents

Unless she has hidden hets, the only things you can make with her are normals, stripes, motleys (genetic motley-stripe), amels, amel motleys (genetic motley-stripe), and amel stripes.


----------



## bothrops

KatieHolly said:


> this is what we have seen mating any idea's what hatchlings we will get from these:
> 
> female butter and male caramel
> female caramel hypo and male snow
> female amel and male caramel
> *female bloodred stripe and male butter motley*
> 
> would be interested to know what we could be expecting and if we could be expecting any interesting morphs! exciting!!





morphtastic said:


> 1. Caramels het amel
> 2. Normals het amel, caramel, anery, hypo
> 3. Normals het amel, caramel
> *4. Normal (motley/stripe?)het caramel, blood, amel*
> unless there are any hidden hets!


 


stripe x motley could give one of two outcomes:

EITHER all motley (showing that the motley parent is homozygous motley (two copies of the motley mutation) and therefore all the offspring are genetically 'motley/stripe' (one copy of the motley gene paired with one copy of the stripe gene)

OR 50% motley, 50% stripe (showing that the motley parent is actually genetically a 'motley/stripe'). All motley animals from this pairing will also be 'motley/stripes'.


So 

female bloodred stripe and male butter motley

EITHER 

100% motley/stripe het bloodred, amel, caramel

or 

50% stripe het blood, amel, caramel
50% motley/stripe het blood, amel, caramel


----------



## JoeylovesTamara

*???*

What about a male blizzard and a amel stripe female ?


----------



## vetdebbie

Amels het anery charcoal stripe


----------



## JoeylovesTamara

*blizzard ?*

What would people recomend to breed with a blizzard male ?
Joel


----------



## bothrops

JoeylovesTamara said:


> What would people recomend to breed with a blizzard male ?
> Joel



A blizzard carries two copies of the charcoal gene and two copies of the amel gene.


Assuming the animal is not carrying any other mutations (if it was it would have been sold as 'het blood' or 'het hypo' or whatever, unless the seller/breeder didn't know) then you are only going to be working with those genes in the first generation.



You have four options to get morphs in the first generation:


1) breed it to another blizzard to get 100% blizzard babies

2) breed it to a charcoal het amel to get 50% charcoal 50% blizzard

3) breed it to an amel het charcoal to get 50% amel 50% blizzard

4) breed it to a normal het charcoal and amel to get 25% normal 25% amel 25% charcoal 25% blizzard



(note all percentages are 'chances per egg' and do not necessarily represent the exact clutch).




All those matings and percentages will hold even if you add other recessive genes into the mix (for example if you bred a motley het amel and charcoal, you'd still get 25% of each, only they would all also be het motley).




Also, for the record, it makes no difference at all what gender each morph is, the mutations still follow the same rules (of course you need a boy and girl to make babies, but it doesn't matter which is the blizzard or het charcoal or whatever)


----------



## KJ00

Hi there

I have recently had a clutch of corn snakes hatch. The mum was a standard and the dad an anery. I have had standards and anery babies hatch so most likely the mum is standard het anery. However I have had to amels hatch? can you shed any light on this? is there a third locus (gene space) for corn morph?


----------



## powerpuffruth

KJ00 said:


> Hi there
> 
> I have recently had a clutch of corn snakes hatch. The mum was a standard and the dad an anery. I have had standards and anery babies hatch so most likely the mum is standard het anery. However I have had to amels hatch? can you shed any light on this? is there a third locus (gene space) for corn morph?


the amel gene is at a completely different locus to the anery so your dad must be anery het amel and the mum will be normal het anery and amel


----------



## SpiritSerpents

Most corn traits do not exist on the same locus. The exceptions are ultra and amel, motley and stripe, and hypo and strawberry.

All the aneries (of which there are 4 types), the majority of the hypos (5 types at least), amelanism, diffused, etc exist in separate locations. This is how you can create quad and quintuple morph snakes.

And snows, which are expressing amel and anery at the same time.


----------



## acjordan

cornmorphs said:


> ok, so the one you have now is snow?
> snow to amel will give all amels het for snow.
> snow to anery will give all anerys het amel.
> snow to snow will give all snows.
> snow to candy cane will give all amels, this is because candy IS a form of amel.
> snow to bloodred is likely to give normals het for bloodred and snow.
> 
> these are based on the fact there is no hidden hets.. this is not very likely to be honest, its almost certain that you will have some hets that you wont know about.


I hatched out a clutch from anery (female) x snow (male) and got 13 snows and 7 anerys, some of which are very dark black and grey and some of which have a brown tint to them, would that make the anery het for snow? or am I way off?
there was also one interesting looking amel in the clutch


----------



## bothrops

acjordan said:


> I hatched out a clutch from anery (female) x snow (male) and got 13 snows and 7 anerys, some of which are very dark black and grey and some of which have a brown tint to them, would that make the anery het for snow? or am I way off?
> there was also one interesting looking amel in the clutch



If you got even one snow from the pairing, that proves that the anery parent is het amel.

I would suggest that the 'amel' is not an amel. Neither the anery female or the snow male have a normal copy of the anery gene to give as they are both homozygous anery. Therefore it is impossible for them to produce an animal that isn't at least anery. Therefore the 'interesting amel' must either be a dark snow, or the parents are not what you think they are.


Any chance of pics of the parents and the offspring?


----------



## acjordan

Thankyou, I'll post pictures up of the hatchlings and the parents later this evening.


----------



## acjordan

*corns*

Here are the parents and a few of the hatchlings.
I meant to say earlier but was at work and didnt get a chance, this female was actually paired with an amel originally before the snow, but he seemed to show no interest whatsoever, there were no witnessed locks and no sign of any residue or any other evidence of "hows your father" when we checked the tank.
Do you think I may have just missed it and the hatchlings have inherited both genes?
















This is the amel I mentioned before.








































Also, could you shed any light on the pattern on this snow? I've been told it was just a normal snow but I've not seen anything like it around (I appreciate you probably hear that on a daily basis).








Sorry about the essay!
Thankyou.


----------



## bothrops

OK. Firstly that certainly looks like an amel! The only way you could get both amel and anery babies from the snow in this case is that if the litter has two fathers. The amel male couldn't have fathered the aneries (all his babies when paired with a snow would be at least amel so could only have amels and snows) and the anery male couldn't have fathered the amels (All his babies when paired with a snow would be at least anery so could only have aneries and snows).



Therefore, you know that the amel baby is 100% het anery and fathered by the amel male. You know that the anery babies are 100% het amel and fathered by the anery male.


The snows could be fathered by either male, but as they are both visual snows, it doesn't matter which is which as they are all the same genetically.


Note that the genetics haven't been mixed up, the sperm from the two males has so it is a split clutch in terms of fatherhood.




As for the pattern on the snow. That is an aberrant pattern that crops up randomly in corn snakes from time to time. It isn't genetic and if often to do with slight incubation issues. it is called an 'aztec' corn.


----------



## acjordan

Thankyou very much that's incredibly helpful!


----------



## powerpuffruth

acjordan said:


> I hatched out a clutch from anery (female) x snow (male) and got 13 snows and 7 anerys, some of which are very dark black and grey and some of which have a brown tint to them, would that make the anery het for snow? or am I way off?
> there was also one interesting looking amel in the clutch


The anery is het for amel. 
a snow is a snake that has 2 amel and 2 anery genes. 
your anery has 2 anery genes and 1 amel. That's quite good odds you got there. More snows than there should have been statistically.


----------



## acjordan

Thanks for explanations guys, hopefully I'll be as lucky with the odds in my future breeding projects!


----------



## powerpuffruth

bothrops said:


> OK. Firstly that certainly looks like an amel! The only way you could get both amel and anery babies from the snow in this case is that if the litter has two fathers. The amel male couldn't have fathered the aneries (all his babies when paired with a snow would be at least amel so could only have amels and snows) and the anery male couldn't have fathered the amels (All his babies when paired with a snow would be at least anery so could only have aneries and snows).
> 
> 
> 
> Therefore, you know that the amel baby is 100% het anery and fathered by the amel male. You know that the anery babies are 100% het amel and fathered by the anery male.
> 
> 
> The snows could be fathered by either male, but as they are both visual snows, it doesn't matter which is which as they are all the same genetically.
> 
> 
> Note that the genetics haven't been mixed up, the sperm from the two males has so it is a split clutch in terms of fatherhood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for the pattern on the snow. That is an aberrant pattern that crops up randomly in corn snakes from time to time. It isn't genetic and if often to do with slight incubation issues. it is called an 'aztec' corn.


Just to agree the above is 100% correct, the clutch you have must have been fertilised by 2 different males.


----------



## animartco

*good wife for male corn?*

I have an amelanistic corn who seems to be a darker colour than others I have seen. He is a rich orangy chestnut and his markings hardly show darker than the ground colour. What colour wife should I be looking for?


----------



## cavan

animartco said:


> I have an amelanistic corn who seems to be a darker colour than others I have seen. He is a rich orangy chestnut and his markings hardly show darker than the ground colour. What colour wife should I be looking for?


you shouldn't you should be making sure you can feed the snakes you already have


----------



## GeorgiaAndJayFuzz

animartco said:


> I have an amelanistic corn who seems to be a darker colour than others I have seen. He is a rich orangy chestnut and his markings hardly show darker than the ground colour. What colour wife should I be looking for?


 
you cant afford the 2 snakes you have, please don't get anymore!


----------



## bothrops

animartco said:


> I have an amelanistic corn who seems to be a darker colour than others I have seen. He is a rich orangy chestnut and his markings hardly show darker than the ground colour. What colour wife should I be looking for?


'Slightly darker' is completely within the broad range of orange/brown/chestnut/yellow etc that would all fall under the completely normal amel morph.


However, as the others have stated, from your other post in the snake section you are not in a position to be looking for another snake until you have found a solution to your inability to get food for the ones you have.


----------



## Tomwatson

Here's one for you if you could please help me!

Got two males 1 amel and 1 snow 
Currently in the process of finding and buying a female lavender 

What's the outcome I could get for with both males? Thanks!!


----------



## morphtastic

if she is just a lavender then the outcome would be all normals for both males.
Amel x lavender = normal het amel, lavender.
Snow x lavender = normal het amel, anery, lavender.
she'll need to be het for anery or amel to get anything other than normals.
Look on corncalc, it's a great help when it comes to working out what the possible out comes are.


----------



## Tomwatson

morphtastic said:


> if she is just a lavender then the outcome would be all normals for both males.
> Amel x lavender = normal het amel, lavender.
> Snow x lavender = normal het amel, anery, lavender.
> she'll need to be het for anery or amel to get anything other than normals.
> Look on corncalc, it's a great help when it comes to working out what the possible out comes are.


What would be the best morph to breed with the snakes we currently own?


----------



## SpiritSerpents

I would go for an amel motley het anery. Bred to the snow, you will get amels and snows. Bred to the amel you will get all amels. In addition, the female would be able to test either male for the motley gene, and would test the amel male for the anery gene.


----------



## arden2

I hatched out a clutch from anery female x snow male and got 13 snows and 7 anerys, some of which are very dark black and grey and some of which have a brown tint to them, would that make the anery het for snow?


----------



## eeji

arden2 said:


> I hatched out a clutch from anery female x snow male and got 13 snows and 7 anerys, some of which are very dark black and grey and some of which have a brown tint to them, would that make the anery het for snow?


she's het amel.


----------

