# anyone had a dwarf bearded dragon



## darko26 (Dec 16, 2008)

does anyone own or evern owned a dwarf, bought mine 2 years ago along with 3 others and 2 grew to normal size and the other 2 stayed quite small so i assumed they are just dwarf
any info anyone?


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## KnD Plant (Jan 2, 2009)

you see we have the same thing only one of them is still looking very small for her age. but then we dont know what its all about either as we seperated them to make sure she is eating ok and she is.

but then we did buy all 3 at the same time and we think this one is the one we baught seperate and think it could be a ranking. but they said she is a bearded dragon.


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## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

dwarf beardie... maybe thats why mine is soo small:lol2:


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## darko26 (Dec 16, 2008)

its all good people i wasn't sure if it was just me,

well i heard there worth bit more so we are better of preferably any of you got males?


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## spikemu (Jul 5, 2008)

mines kinda dwarf in length but everything looks correct proportion lol 

there 14 inches and 4 years old.

both geezas  










thats them both


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

darko26 said:


> its all good people i wasn't sure if it was just me,
> 
> well i heard there worth bit more so we are better of preferably any of you got males?


 
i have a male who eats as much as any other adult and hes small.. so id say a dwarf of some sort in fact i wil go weigh him 2 mins...

325 grams..

he is.. 2 years old this June... I also had a female who was 6 months old and HEAVIER.. ive no idea why he has slow growth rate he certainly doesnt thave a skinny tail and hes strong and friendly...

he eats like a horse always has done!!!

5 to 7 adult locusts with wings 3 times a week.. fruit blueberries etc and vege like carrot and curly kale..

he also gets waxies and crickets the odd day too...and ive never known him to turn down his food..

here he is as a baby










AND NOW...


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## Seth (Oct 9, 2007)

My 14 month old bearded dragon is 259 grams. Not sure how many inches.


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## Jam- (Mar 28, 2008)

could they be pagona henrylawsoni? rankins dragons they're pretty much the same but only get to about 12inches max


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## amyloveys (Jan 12, 2008)

i have three 3 to 4 month old females? Two are six inches long but one is only 3 shes tiny! Just a runt of the litter i believe


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

You get 'runts of the litter' that fail to thrive and therefore remain small, you also get some beardies that are not kept with adequate equipment (small vivs, lack of or inadequate UV), who also have their growth stunted - they remain Bearded Dragons tho....


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## darko26 (Dec 16, 2008)

my bearded's have 5-2-2 viv power sun bulb fed everyday with calcium and minerial powder fed veg locusts crickets sometimes wax worms never mill worms really my be runt i prefer dwarf sounds better :lol2:


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

I prefer the term 'smaller than average' or 'of stunted growth' as they are not true dwarfs.... as such, don't know who told you they are worth more, they are actually worth less than average sized BD's...


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## darko26 (Dec 16, 2008)

noone told me saw them in shop about 6 months ago
and they was up for 95 as baby's and the norms where up for 65
i didn't even know there was such this as dwarf before that,

i'd like to find out would anyone want to loan there small bearded or you loan mine and see if we get a batch of dwarfs?

so let me know people cheers


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

darko26 said:


> noone told me saw them in shop about 6 months ago
> and they was up for 95 as baby's and the norms where up for 65
> i didn't even know there was such this as dwarf before that,
> 
> ...


Rankins Dragons or Pogona Henrylawsoni or similar SPECIES of agamid, would be worth more yes... someone selling stunted beardies is not worth buying from cos that is all you are getting, not a rankin, not anything else....

You really should not breed from a stunted beardie as you do not know if it is a genetic problem or otherwise, and could breed significantly disabled young, not only that but smaller females should not be bred from as this could give her health problems.....

You need to quarantine any new reptile, how would you plan on a 'loan' type breeding program? You would need to vet check the reps, consider the conditions they are kept in, and then quarantine for 3 months..... don't see it working...


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## darko26 (Dec 16, 2008)

so what is this site atlking about?


 Species:
*Pogona minor*

*Dwarf Bearded Dragon*


Some other names for this species: 
*Western Bearded Dragon*

Subspecies I've seen:
 
Dwarf Bearded Dragon
P. m. minor 
Subspecies:
*Pogona minor minor*

*Dwarf Bearded Dragon*


Sighting:
November 12, 2005
Peron Peninsula, Shark Bay World Heritage Area, Western Australia, Australia

















We saw several of these Dwarf Bearded Dragons in a few days in the Shark Bay area, all of them basking in the sand near the side of a road. They're called Dwarf Bearded Dragons because they're smaller than most of the other bearded dragon species, such as the Central Bearded Dragon. However, they are still impressively large compared to the average North American lizard. Their "beards" are also significantly smaller than most of the other species; more of an exaggerated 5 o' clock shadow really. 
Here is a complete list of the reptiles and frogs I saw on this trip to Western Australia. 


Sighting:
November 14, 2005
Peron National Park, Western Australia, Australia

















Here's another pair of Dwarf Beardies in sand along the side of a road, in this case a dirt four-wheel-drive track leading through Peron National Park.


Printed references:

Bush, B., Maryan, B., Browne-Cooper, R., Robinson, D. 1995. A Guide to the Reptiles and Frogs of the Perth Region
Cogger, H. G. 2000. Reptiles & Amphibians of Australia, Sixth Edition
Wilson, S. K., Knowles, D. 1988. Australia's Reptiles: A Photographic Reference to the Terrestrial Reptiles of Australia
Wilson, S., Swan, G. 2003. Reptiles of Australia
wildherps.com links:
Agamidae (Agamas (Dragons)) » Sauria (Lizards) » wildherps.com
Index of scientific names, sighting dates, locations
Notes about scientific and common names
Search wildherps.com:
[/EMAIL]

the dragons we have, have nothing wrong with them just smaller than the rest so surely breeding should not be a problem if human dwarfs can have children and they can come out bigger than most of us,
surely if i breed my dragon and i get big and small ones its shows that it is stunted growth where as if i breed and get only small breed there must be such thing as dwarf's?


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

SUB SPECIES - like I said *different* .... a bearded dragon is Pagona vitticeps, these are all sub species..... if yours is a stunted pagona vitticeps, it doesn't make it another sub species...... it just makes it a stunted bearded dragon....

Anyone who has true 'dwarf' dragons will know the sub species they belong to, ie Henrylawsoni, minor, minor minor etc etc, and do not regard them as dwarf bearded dragons, but as a sub species in their own right...

These are true sub species.... an animal which is stunted through inbreeding, lack of care, egg problems etc should not be bred from, you cannot put this in the same category as someone who may have dwarfism, as there are many causes for this, and no not all people suffering from dwarfism (depending on the cause) can reproduce, or may suffer problems reproducing, or their children may suffer their own problems.... its down to genetics

So without knowing the reason why your beardie is of stunted growth, it is not recommended that you use it for breeding purposes.....


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## retri (Mar 5, 2008)

darko26 said:


> does anyone own or evern owned a dwarf, bought mine 2 years ago along with 3 others and 2 grew to normal size and the other 2 stayed quite small so i assumed they are just dwarf
> any info anyone?


looks like that coulod be a vitikins (rankinxbeardie)



spikemu said:


> mines kinda dwarf in length but everything looks correct proportion lol
> 
> there 14 inches and 4 years old.
> 
> ...


I wouldnt say 14 inches is unusualy small, beardie adult size vaaries quite alot anyway



sparkle said:


> i have a male who eats as much as any other adult and hes small.. so id say a dwarf of some sort in fact i wil go weigh him 2 mins...
> 
> 325 grams..
> 
> ...


Also looks like he could be a vitikins, and a beautiful one at that!

They are not rankins dragons as rankins do not have 'beards' but vitikins have beards but not as prominent as on a full beardie


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## darko26 (Dec 16, 2008)

but we got her from shop and most shops aint got clue about stuff like when i bought my first royal the owner of shop said needs to be in desert conditions and he blistered up and when really down hill but sorted him out now, so couldn't some of us bought a sub species but the shop owner didn't know what he had just sold them?
and couldn't some of these people with sub species have had one like me looked into it and thought yeah thats what i'll call it?

sounds better and makes them feel better so people like you dont sit there and critersize the pet they have? 

how do i really know you know everything about lizards or dragons should i say?


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

I don't claim to know everything, but without knowing the parentage of any rep, you will never know what sub species (if any) you have..... there are plenty of unscrupulous people (petshops included) who will pass off a stunted BD as a rankin as they can get extra money for it.... Looking at those pics, my stunted BD looks just like that 'dwarf' in the last picture, but I know its just a stunted BD through lack of care, I wouldn't try and pass it off as something it isn't.

My cat looks pedigree, she is a moggy, I would never pass her off as a pedigree..... What I'm trying to say is that if someone wants to call an animal something else to inflate their ego, then thats their problem... selling on an animal when you know its something else, is mis-selling, and another issue entirely


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## darko26 (Dec 16, 2008)

*THANKS RETRI for your great post*

i still would like to try and breed my female to find out whether it is a dwarf breed as retri says i am actually selling her but going to breed her now if i can am interested to find out,
i dont believe the purest of anything is that good due to all pdigre dogs have a problem and die younger than any mutt and same goes for cats
i have 3 cats all just a mix, 1 german shepherd pup which i know will die quicker than my 5 year old bearded collie cross my staff i adopted as she was left in house for 3 weeks why her family went on holiday so not sure how long she will live she is a staff,

i'm high believer in cross breeding makes a stronger animal reptile whicher it may be


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## TCReptile (Sep 9, 2008)

I would guess that yours is just the runt of the litter, and not a 'dwarf beardie' like the ones shown, only a certain amount of Bearded Dragons where originally taken from the wild, and we would of known by now if one of the sub-species had been collected.


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

darko26 said:


> i still would like to try and breed my female to find out whether it is a dwarf breed as retri says i am actually selling her but going to breed her now if i can am interested to find out,
> i dont believe the purest of anything is that good due to all pdigre dogs have a problem and die younger than any mutt and same goes for cats
> i have 3 cats all just a mix, 1 german shepherd pup which i know will die quicker than my 5 year old bearded collie cross my staff i adopted as she was left in house for 3 weeks why her family went on holiday so not sure how long she will live she is a staff,
> 
> i'm high believer in cross breeding makes a stronger animal reptile whicher it may be


without knowing the genetics of your BD, or the reason for her stunted growth, you could have a dead BD or lots of seriously deformed hatchlings on your hands.... It's easy to say that a small BD looks like a rankin from 1 photo, esp as she is a female....

Next you'll be saying that because its of the agamid family it will be fine to mate her with an agama.....

With your last statement, have you studied genetics at all? you seem to have little lizard knowledge, and I am one person (hopefully amongst many on here) who will frown at your lack of understanding


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

Maybe if you put your question about cross breeding from a potentially stunted female (rather than a rankin) in the breeding part of the forum, you'll have some knowledgeable breeders respond....


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## darko26 (Dec 16, 2008)

no didn't study genetics at all did you?
i didn't say i was going to cross breed her with anything other than another bearded just a small one,
i was saying in general muts and stray cats are much more healthier than pedigree i dont believe all this everything has gotta be breed with what it is how you think we get some of these strange obscure snakes and lizards not all of them are natural

unless you really believe that they are?

mine may be runt to be honest not really bothered as said in first statement i assume it as a dwarf as didnt' grow to same size as others and by the way her brother was small too.


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## darko26 (Dec 16, 2008)

how do we know its stunted can you prove so?

or can you prove that it is not a sub species?

if you can come do so?


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## Paul B (Apr 16, 2008)

I have raised BDs in identical circumstances and experienced differing growth rates for some reason. I currently have two 5 mth old dragons both males. One is 10 inches and as chubby as babies get. The other is 7.5 inches and just as chubby but not as big. Both eat for England.

I am sure they will both grow up to be the same size.

If at 2 years old they are only 12" i would imagine they are Rankins.


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

darko26 said:


> how do we know its stunted can you prove so?
> 
> or can you prove that it is not a sub species?
> 
> if you can come do so?


As I said earlier, you would need to know its parentage to be sure of the sub species, maybe there are people who would be able to look at its genetics through a blood sample.... No, I cannot prove that is not a sub species, unless the person you bought from actually told you and showed you its parents.... If you had 3 from the same clutch, I would assume that it is more likely to be a stunted BD rather than anything else, now I'm just going round in circles!

Like I said, post it in the breeding section of the forum and see what the response is


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

BTW...my stunted BD is around 3 years old, from nose to vent she is 8 inches, she is not a Rankins .... I know that this is caused from lack of proper care & equipment from her previous owner as she was a rescue and I saw the conditions she had lived in... I would never breed from her as there is a good chance that this would kill her plus the fact that she hadn't had a good life before.


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## retri (Mar 5, 2008)

just because a beardie is small it does not mean its a rankin, rankins also look different from beardies an do not have 'beards'


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

retri said:


> just because a beardie is small it does not mean its a rankin, rankins also look different from beardies an do not have 'beards'


Ah, a sensible response at last! TY Retri!


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## TCReptile (Sep 9, 2008)

I think people are getting cunfused. A Rankin is NOT a small bearded dragon, but is a species in its own right. A 'Dwarf' Bearded Dragon is NOT the same as a Bearded Dragon, so if a Normal pair of BD's happen to have a very small baby that never grows it cannot be something that has no genetic links.

A human cannot give birth to an elephant, but just because the baby looks like one doesn't mean it can therefore be breed to an elephant.


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## Sambee (Jul 4, 2008)

TCReptile said:


> I think people are getting cunfused. A Rankin is NOT a small bearded dragon, but is a species in its own right. A 'Dwarf' Bearded Dragon is NOT the same as a Bearded Dragon, so if a Normal pair of BD's happen to have a very small baby that never grows it cannot be something that has no genetic links.
> *
> A human cannot give birth to an elephant, but just because the baby looks like one doesn't mean it can therefore be breed to an elephant.*


LOL!

Hilarious yet true...


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

TCReptile said:


> I think people are getting cunfused. A Rankin is NOT a small bearded dragon, but is a species in its own right. A 'Dwarf' Bearded Dragon is NOT the same as a Bearded Dragon, so if a Normal pair of BD's happen to have a very small baby that never grows it cannot be something that has no genetic links.
> 
> A human cannot give birth to an elephant, but just because the baby looks like one doesn't mean it can therefore be breed to an elephant.


HURRAY!!!! Thats what I have been trying to explain, the Pogona sub species...... can I breathe now?!!


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## darko26 (Dec 16, 2008)

lol i know that tc but people do cross breed other lizards dont they?

and some people mix breed snakes

human and elephant is completly different 

i dont know genetics or nothing like that never went to school much but watch enough discovery and animale planet to know what sick and wrong mix breeding goes on out in this sisk world,

my female stunted (dwarf) bearded's brother was same size as her never see the parents most shops buy there reptiles in now days, i go to breeders rather than shops now,


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## darko26 (Dec 16, 2008)

*So does this person know nothing?*

so this person has been out in wild looking at something called dwarf bearded's why we going on about this anyway by sounds of it none of us know so if i want to breed her and get a load of small beardeds i was right, you dont know till you try thats how you get anything in this world






darko26 said:


> so what is this site atlking about?
> 
> 
> Species:
> ...


http://www.ribbitphotography.com/


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

You still don't get it, do you?

1) SPECIES / SUB SPECIES

2) Stunted BD - breed with her - possibility of dead beardie, deformed hatchlings if any - and thats if bred with another BD POGONA VITTICEPS 

3) even in sub-species, little would even thrive in the same environment, or fight other sub species in the same space....

4) UNLESS YOU KNOW 100% what you have, Don't breed her full stop

HELLO????????????


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

Define cross breeding reptiles....

Do you mean leopard gecko to leopard gecko to get a different morph? They are still the same species, and even then there can be problems....


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## TCReptile (Sep 9, 2008)

Bosscat said:


> Define cross breeding reptiles....
> 
> Do you mean leopard gecko to leopard gecko to get a different morph? They are still the same species, and even then there can be problems....



I think they mean bearded dragon to rankins = Vittikins

Darko - And yes I know breeding an elephant to a human is silly, but it was the only way I could think people Might understand! Obviously not though.


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

TCReptile said:


> I think they mean bearded dragon to rankins = Vittikins
> 
> Darko - And yes I know breeding an elephant to a human is silly, but it was the only way I could think people Might understand! Obviously not though.


Gotcha, just don't know what they think...specially if breeding a stunted female which is a no-no in my eyes...

But the elephant one a good descriptive, painful, not possible, but good....


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## Onlinebug (Feb 27, 2008)

My beardies about a year old now, god that went fast! 

And he just won't grow, hes 300 grams give or take a few and hasent changed much in the last two months 



















Lewis.


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## TCReptile (Sep 9, 2008)

Bosscat said:


> Gotcha, just don't know what they think...specially if breeding a stunted female which is a no-no in my eyes...
> 
> But the elephant one a good descriptive, painful, not possible, but good....


Trying to breed this deformed beardie to anything else is just asking for trouble. This is why I tried using something people could relate to - but obviusly not. Unfortunatly all we can do is give this person the pros and cons of breeding from a sick animal.


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

Onlinebug said:


> My beardies about a year old now, god that went fast!
> 
> And he just won't grow, hes 300 grams give or take a few and hasent changed much in the last two months
> 
> ...


He should still be growing.... have you changed your UV since you've had him and what is it? What size viv is he in? and is he eating and pooing well, and remaining alert?


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

TCReptile said:


> Trying to breed this deformed beardie to anything else is just asking for trouble. This is why I tried using something people could relate to - but obviusly not. Unfortunatly all we can do is give this person the pros and cons of breeding from a sick animal.


Exactly what I have been saying!!!!


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

TCReptile said:


> I would guess that yours is just the runt of the litter, and not a 'dwarf beardie' like the ones shown, only a certain amount of Bearded Dragons where originally taken from the wild, and we would of known by now if one of the sub-species had been collected.


 
I know for a fact mine was not the runt in fact ditta bred him and he was first to the food and ate way more than the rest,,,



its also worth noting that beardies dont reach full size till 3 years old in many cases.. we just feed them so so much in captivity we see them full dgrown by 12 to 14 months when really in the wild that wouldnt necessarily be the case.. so some grow at a slower healthy rate 

he has been fed identically to my fire and ice female i recently sold.. and she was HUGE compared to him at 6 months and I realised there was NO WAY she could ever be bred with him..
he eats like an adult.. and has always had access to Uv and the correct set up and temps..
when a youngester hed easily eat a box of crix a day and all his vege..

so unless theres some other genetic thing going on .. ive no idea why hes small.. what i DO know is despite being asked by various people he will never ever be bred from.. his colouring is immense better than many citrus ive seen but still..
allbeit hes only 18 months.. and 325 grams.. unless he puts weight gradually.. then I stil think theres something genetic going on with him.. who knows though he may grow into a good normal size by the age of 3 and prove that he isnt a dwarf or small genetically

what i do know is in morphs such as leicistics they grow much slower and are more suwat in appearance.. NOW.. with my beardie bneing a total anomally in colour.. the rest of his clutch were not yellow but normals.. maybe just maybe its something linked with the fact he was born out the egg PURE yellow from day one with golden nails..

colour morphs have been linked to growth and size before so it MAY be this is a new colour morph of yellow not compatible with for example fire and ice citrus or dragons den.. I was going to breed him ti a super citrus fire and ice female i had but there sno way hed have coped she was heavier than him by 7 months old!!!!!


if the colours produced though from that pairing were ALL normals then I would have bred one back to the male to see if I had a new yellow morph..

but im not going to now as he is just such a slow grower and i dont have the fire and ice lass anymore either


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Bosscat said:


> HURRAY!!!! Thats what I have been trying to explain, the Pogona sub species...... can I breathe now?!!


 
breathe lovely lady breathe.. LOL


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Bosscat said:


> You still don't get it, do you?
> 
> 1) SPECIES / SUB SPECIES
> 
> ...





TCReptile said:


> Trying to breed this deformed beardie to anything else is just asking for trouble. This is why I tried using something people could relate to - but obviusly not. Unfortunatly all we can do is give this person the pros and cons of breeding from a sick animal.


Right, I've just read the entirety of this thread, and those of you that seem to be lording your knowledge of genetics should really go back and do some reading.
Firstly, there are no such things as sub-species, as an entity they are not scientifically valid. For people who want to question this, please feel free. I will direct you to lots of appropriate taxonomic and phylogenetic literature, or if you'd like to have a reasoned discussion about it, I am always willing. The point here is that although there are often similar animals categorized as sub-species they are simply variants of a single species (species is also contentious... but that is another story). There is NO currently accepted species concept (and there are over 55 in current literature) that will separate these sub-species with any degree of accuracy. They are also sexually compatible.

Secondly, all species show natural variation in size (and MANY other characteristics). This may OR may not imply fitness connotations but cannot be assumed detrimental without evidence. Why you all seem to assume that this bearded dragon is impaired is beyond me. What evidence do you have? Small individuals can and will breed successfully, and have the same potential pitfalls as a larger individual. Would you suggest not breading a dragon that was 22" because of potential stress to its heart?

IF and only IF this dragon has a growth related deformity, which we have seen NO evidence for, then i would suggest not breeding it, but until then, there are some high horses to come off!

Andy


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Right, I've just read the entirety of this thread, and those of you that seem to be lording your knowledge of genetics should really go back and do some reading.
> Firstly, there are no such things as sub-species, as an entity they are not scientifically valid. For people who want to question this, please feel free. I will direct you to lots of appropriate taxonomic and phylogenetic literature, or if you'd like to have a reasoned discussion about it, I am always willing. The point here is that although there are often similar animals categorized as sub-species they are simply variants of a single species (species is also contentious... but that is another story). There is NO currently accepted species concept (and there are over 55 in current literature) that will separate these sub-species with any degree of accuracy. They are also sexually compatible.
> 
> Secondly, all species show natural variation in size (and MANY other characteristics). This may OR may not imply fitness connotations but cannot be assumed detrimental with evidence. Why you all seem to assume that this bearded dragon is impaired is beyond me. What evidence do you have? Small individuals can and will breed successfully, and have the same potential pitfalls as a larger individual. Would you suggest not breading a dragon that was 22" because of potential stress to its heart?
> ...


 
LO andy great post

ive explained that to the thread starter on MSN

theres NO WAY to tell why..

my boy is fit and healthy and happy now if at age 3 or 4 hes stil this small i will guess hes just a small beardie..

at 14 months someone suggested a female has done al her growing i entirely disgaree.. if at 3 yrs old she is still greatly under what is suggested as a minimum then fair enough maybe there is something going on..

but some are slow gorwers and some are naturally smaller by design.. what i did suggest to the thread starter on msn if when shes older shes stil significantly small she may have issues carrying larger eggs or double clutching if her eggs were for example normal size in comparison to her possible small size..

thats a judgement though to be made at a later date..

for someone not scientific liek me and not really caring WHY this beardie is maybe smaller than average.. like my own all im bothered about is her health.. if she healthy and well and grows very slow and steady then lets see age 3 to 4 what happens..

LOADS of people think just because a beardie female or male CAN be HUGE by 14 to 18 months and ready to breed then thats the same for all beardies.. which is tosh..

anyways i hope everyone can settle down and chill..


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

I just got a little annoyed at the haranguing this guy was getting for no clear reason. I haven't seen the bearded dragon, and know nothing about its life history, so how can I make a judgement call about its health and breeding potential? I can't, and as far as I'm concerned neither can anyone. I see peoples point (well, some of them at least), but whether they apply to this situation is questionable.

Glad you got a laugh from it though Lynn... 

Andy


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

TCReptile said:


> Trying to breed this deformed beardie to anything else is just asking for trouble. This is why I tried using something people could relate to - but obviusly not. Unfortunatly all we can do is give this person the pros and cons of breeding from a sick animal.


 
I dont get why its sick or deformed.. how can u tell that..

I know the other poster said he thought it was maybe a dwarf and fair enough scientifically thats maybe not right.. but still.. 

ive explained to the thread starter that since theres no definitive way to tel why shes small breeding her may cause problems if she carries normal sized eggs.. however the smallest end of the scale on the weight charts for adult females is 350 grams so if she grows til shes 4 years old she MAY reach that who knows...

stil ive advised he considers not breeding as he is unsure of the reasons WHY she is small.. incase it puts her at a risk.. I stil cant see why shes sick or deformed.

my male is 325 grams at 18 months and he is not sick nor deformed just small


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

GlasgowGecko said:


> I just got a little annoyed at the haranguing this guy was getting for no clear reason. I haven't seen the bearded dragon, and know nothing about its life history, so how can I make a judgement call about its health and breeding potential? I can't, and as far as I'm concerned neither can anyone. I see peoples point (well, some of them at least), but whether they apply to this situation is questionable.
> 
> Glad you got a laugh from it though Lynn...
> 
> Andy


 
ive spoken to the guy on msn.. since I too have a small beardie .., but hes not sick or deformed just small.. i think its an idea not to breed her since theres no way of knowing oif the eggs would be normal sized and shed possibly not cope at all.. issues with egg binding etc.. 

PLUS i get sick to death of people assuming that beardies because they CAN breed at 18 months are fully grown.. if left be til they are 4 years old to me thats when u will be able to judge size and weight far more clearly...

same with all lizards.. they think if they power gorw them and get them sexually mature only weight matters...

ho hum ..

My male is 18 montbhs old and 325 grams he eats like any other normal beardie and if anyhting ate more as a baby.. he has perfect living conditons and has always had UV at correct strength and correct heat etc and ate his vege.. some just grow slower and are smaller the variation is HUGE so dont compare and worry too much if your husbandry is correct and feeding spot on. then dont panic... just kep an eye on steady growth patterns and if worried to the point u think it needs check get a vet to look over any animal for a professional opinion ..


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## darko26 (Dec 16, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> I just got a little annoyed at the haranguing this guy was getting for no clear reason. I haven't seen the bearded dragon, and know nothing about its life history, so how can I make a judgement call about its health and breeding potential? I can't, and as far as I'm concerned neither can anyone. I see peoples point (well, some of them at least), but whether they apply to this situation is questionable.
> 
> Glad you got a laugh from it though Lynn...
> 
> Andy


 
thanks for your thread and and to yours too sparkle 

as i said before i know nothing on genetics so couldn't really tell anyone anything

lee


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

darko26 said:


> thanks for your thread and and to yours too sparkle
> 
> as i said before i know nothing on genetics so couldn't really tell anyone anything
> 
> lee


 
Im pants at science too.. i admit it.. i just try to learn and am willing to be corrected..

the only thing i do say to people is if ure not sure and u dont know .. then u need to decide on the risk factor.. such is life.. and im not a risk taker with my animals..


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## spikemu (Jul 5, 2008)

has anyone considered the OP meaning it not scientifically ??? 

yes theres a proper species or what ever it is (not to great at wording) called the dwarf beardie (with a HUMUNGO TAIL may i just say lol ) but maybe he ment what i thought he ment by using dwarf as anther word for small.

average size at full grown being around 17-20 inches (guess and from what ive heard) so thats why i added at start saying mines 14" dwarf beardie just meaning its smaller than average. like short people who donot have the dwarf gene are called dwarfves as jokes lol ( i know coz i say it :lol2 

i know this was ages ago in the thread nd im no master at genetics but through my genetics lessons at college we did get told that there is alot of evidence that cross breeding has been done in the wild. (also sumhow this is what made a chicken :lol2
boss cat CHILL lol 

good threads sparkle, andy and retri  

please correct me or just call me a fool if im wrong lol


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

i think bosscat was just trying to help... i know shes very pasionate about keeping animals safe..
sometimes we dont put across things in a way that other posters can accept..

but I know bosscat had the animals best interests at heart


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## Onlinebug (Feb 27, 2008)

Bosscat said:


> He should still be growing.... have you changed your UV since you've had him and what is it? What size viv is he in? and is he eating and pooing well, and remaining alert?


His UV is outdated by 2 months, have ordered a new one but it was broke so I'm waiting for a replacement.

Lewis.


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

Sorry had things to do.... in response YES I do have the BD in questions interests at heart and maybe it did veer a little off topic trying to get the OP to understand the differences in the Pogona family, I never said I knew shedloads about genetics.....

The fact tho is that a BD or any reptile that has stunted growth, will run risks by breeding, egg bound, stress etc etc, then there is the eggs and the possible hatchlings, if they haven't enough nutrients etc in the egg then they don't get a very good start to life, if they live at all. Without knowing the cause of why the BD is stunted (genetic, runt, mistreatment etc), would you put an animal through that?

And no, I'm not stressed, but I do have a headache!

ONLINE BUG - I think you have the reason there then, hopefully he'll thrive once more given the correct UV


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Bosscat said:


> Sorry had things to do.... in response YES I do have the BD in questions interests at heart and maybe it did veer a little off topic trying to get the OP to understand the differences in the Pogona family, I never said I knew shedloads about genetics.....
> 
> The fact tho is that a BD or any reptile that has stunted growth, will run risks by breeding, egg bound, stress etc etc, then there is the eggs and the possible hatchlings, if they haven't enough nutrients etc in the egg then they don't get a very good start to life, if they live at all. Without knowing the cause of why the BD is stunted (genetic, runt, mistreatment etc), would you put an animal through that?
> 
> ...


Ok, to throw one of your own comments back at you "you still don't get it", where is the evidence to show that he has stunted growth? Just because he is smaller to a proposed "average" (which i'm yet to see evidence of) does not mean it has any physiological problems. You seem to have got the bit between the teeth and run with it for no real reason. Nobody really needs talking to like you have been speaking to him, he isn't an idiot, and i'm sure you are not either, but your posts were very aggressive and only questionably appropriate.

Andy


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

Andy, I have said on more than one occasion that I respect your scientific knowledge, however, just because I do not have smileys all over the place does not make me aggressive... 

If you read the whole post, the OP doesn't know if he has stunted beardie or a smaller pogona, trying to explain the difference and how he would know what he had....


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## Reptilover (Jan 15, 2007)

Bosscat said:


> I prefer the term 'smaller than average' or 'of stunted growth' as they are not true dwarfs.... as such, don't know who told you they are worth more, they are actually worth less than average sized BD's...


 
I was going to say vertically challenged but then i remembered its a lizard ..


Horizontly challenged sounds better :2thumb:


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Bosscat said:


> Andy, I have said on more than one occasion that I respect your scientific knowledge, however, just because I do not have smileys all over the place does not make me aggressive...
> 
> If you read the whole post, the OP doesn't know if he has stunted beardie or a smaller pogona, trying to explain the difference and how he would know what he had....


I honestly found the way that you and others we speaking to him was quite aggressive, which is why I echoed it, to show how upsetting it can be to have someone question your intelligence etc...

Andy


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## darko26 (Dec 16, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> I honestly found the way that you and others we speaking to him was quite aggressive, which is why I echoed it, to show how upsetting it can be to have someone question your intelligence etc...
> 
> Andy


 
thanks andy 

things dont really bother me but my partner just read what everyone had to say and got upset and stressed,

:2thumb:


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## Bosscat (Sep 1, 2008)

I have no problem at all with anyone questioning my intelligence, and if the OP thought I was calling him an idiot, then I apologise...

His morals however...


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

I am sure that quite a lot of the small beardies are actually hybrids, they may only be a few % Rankins rather than direct cross which would explain why only a few, or even one from the clutch turn out small.
I will be honest and admit I know very little about the dwarfism gene but I would imagine that it is possible for it to crop up in any species.


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## Rach and Io (Sep 29, 2012)

Hi all, just found this thread trying to determine if our little one was a Dwarf.

He's a rescue from a shelter so we have no idea on his background, other than he was taken in from a vets 9 months prior to us adopting him. 

The shelter said he had not grown since they had him so we assumed he's fully grown and our best age estimate is around 2 years old (since we don't know his birthday we will give him an adoption day on the 18th June every year, e.g he will be "3" in 2014). 

He's really fast, active and boyish so we assume he's not old. Our last beardie was very inactive, we fear she was older than we thought. 

But basically Dran measures a mere 7 inches from nose to butt and nose to tail is 11 inches, although he's got a cut tail so full length is not as it should be. 
At his vet check he weighed in at 178g, will weigh soon, like to keep track from month to month.

He looks fully formed (but we're still novice to the beardie world).

Either way whether he's stunted or a dwarf it doesn't really matter much, he's healthy and we love him all the same


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

I'd say he has too many spikes to be a Rankins, so likely he is either younger than you think or he is dwarfed. It would depend really on where his tail is nipped as to how much more natural lenght you can add to him.

Age doesn't really determine activity in beardies. some are just more active and sociable than others.


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## MrJsk (Jul 29, 2012)

Reptiles can live for a while with next to no food but will not grow. I know that some pet shops don't feed their reptiles enough which reduces the growth rate which means they stay smaller for longer, which helps them to sell them.. If they don't get all the nutrients they need to grow at a young age it can affect their adult size. I have seen the same thing as this with a bosc monitor.


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## Rach and Io (Sep 29, 2012)

Nicnet : I'm honestly not sure. He's missing a lot of his tail, it's only about a 4" stub so with a full tail he would probs be about 14". Olwen had a stubbed tail too but not as bad as Dran's. Dran has a ring around the base of his tail asif he's had it surgically removed due to infection or rot. 

MrJsk : That's really sad to hear, I really do not like the thought of animals being sold in petshops, or sold at all really. I've never really paid for animals I've had. I don't like to encourage people thinking of them as a way of making money


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## MrJsk (Jul 29, 2012)

Yeah it is really sad, this bosc monitor I am talking about (can't find the thread on here) It was only a foot in length but it was something like 3 or 4 years old! I am sure everybody came to the conclusion that it's small size was down to the lack of nutrients which meant that it couldn't grow :neutral:


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## Rach and Io (Sep 29, 2012)

MrJsk said:


> Yeah it is really sad, this bosc monitor I am talking about (can't find the thread on here) It was only a foot in length but it was something like 3 or 4 years old! I am sure everybody came to the conclusion that it's small size was down to the lack of nutrients which meant that it couldn't grow :neutral:


Aww poor thing! It's so sad when crap like that happens. Getting so attached to Lizards in improper care, it's like children. Its not their fault but they are the ones suffering


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## Rach and Io (Sep 29, 2012)

here's Dran's stubby tail (hes puffing in the pic though so he looks huge lol)











Here's a top down shedding pic so you can see his size:


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