# Where can i buy a marmoset?



## lizard di

I was wondering if anyone knows a reputable breeder as im looking to get one. have been looking around but aalot of the pics were the same for different people so looks like a scam. im still in researching them at the moment but am definately getting one. thanks in advance for any help.:2thumb:


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## kodakira

Hi

Sorry to be a party pooper but they need to be kept in pairs or more.

A serious keeper breeder will not sell you a single unless you have or are getting another to go with it.

Best Wishes

Neil


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## lizard di

kodakira said:


> Hi
> 
> Sorry to be a party pooper but they need to be kept in pairs or more.
> 
> A serious keeper breeder will not sell you a single unless you have or are getting another to go with it.
> 
> Best Wishes
> 
> Neil


i didnt mean in the singular necessarily:lol2:, just wanted to know of reptubale breeders, as i have wanted these for a long time.

regards Dianne


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## brittone05

What Neil said, however, there are some exceptionally reptuable prikate keepers frequent the forum and I am sure that once you have your research done and all of your enclosure etc sorted, there will be someone able to point you in the right direction


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## PETERAROBERTSON

Be prepared to wait along time to convince reputable breeders that you are serious about the welfare and keeping them in the proper manner,,it may involve long leanghthly discussions as if they offer quick they are deffo not reputable breeders.....they are not for any type of finantial gain.


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## jinglejoys

I think I know what the OP is talking of.I've noticed these adverts and warnings about them and I think they are wise asking the question on this forum


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## Zoo-Man

There are so many scams about on the free ads sites, that it is easy to be sucked in & ripped off, so beware! As Peter says, reputable breeders will not just chuck you a marmoset & take your cash in a day. When I have babies for sale, I ask prospective buyers lots of questions, I ask to see pictures of what the marmosets will live in, I ask about the family, etc etc.


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## Merifield

Where can you buy a marmoset?

Short answer.... you can't!
Not without supplying answers to all the questions that any breeder here will
ask you... they're a responsible bunch:2thumb:

Well done folks


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## mark t

*marmosets*

Hi guys, im a responsible marmoset keeper and breeder in Northern Ireland...i do supply single HAND-REARED animals, ( NO-ONE SHOULD EVER KEEP AN AVIARY PRIMATE SINGLY !!) but again on the understanding that this animal will have a cage mate.....i also prefer my animals to go in pairs or groups.......and yes, we will grill you on the maintenance,housing, feeding and nutrition, vitamin supplementation, safe stress free handling,taking regular steps to de-parasitise......and yes, other inhabitants of the home that the primate/primates will come into contact with (cats, dogs, snakes etc etc...and most important of all KIDS)......SHOULD ANYONE BE ABLE TO SATISFACTORLY ANSWER ALL THE QUESTIONS IN THE ABOVE AND STILL FEEL THAT THEY WANT AND ARE ABLE TO CARE FOR THEM PROPERLY, THEN I WILL HELP....BUT I WONT MAKE IT EASY.....AND IM SURE I SPEAK FOR 99% OF THE EXOTIC MAMMAL KEEPERS ON HERE : victory:


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## Amalthea

You take perfectly healthy babies away from their perfectly healthy mother to hand rear and send off to a life of solitude???


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## PETERAROBERTSON

99% of the keepers on here wouldnt shout for buisiness to sell marmosets...definition of reputable breeder can be narrowed down and defined to most of our own opinions of your post...you wont make it easy...why post then...you are making it easy...god help the animals moved on to homes already..this gets crazier by the day.


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## kodakira

Amalthea said:


> You take perfectly healthy babies away from their perfectly healthy mother to hand rear???


Why ??????

In my opinion you are not selling a Marmoset, you are selling something that resembles a Marmoset.
How can it be a Marmoset if it never gets handled by its parents or brother / sister, learns Marmoset behaviour etc., learns to handle his brothers or sister etc.

Neil


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## Amalthea

I was responding to the post above mine, Neil


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## PowerPie5000

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> 99% of the keepers on here wouldnt shout for buisiness to sell marmosets


Why not? Breeders of any animal need to make themselves known if they want to sell, and i'm sure potential buyers would like to know who and where the breeders are too 



PETERAROBERTSON said:


> you wont make it easy...why post then...you are making it easy...god help the animals moved on to homes already..this gets crazier by the day.


He's letting people know he breeds them but will only sell to people with a good knowledge of their requirements. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.


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## kodakira

Amalthea said:


> I was responding to the post above mine, Neil


Hi Jen

I know !!!!!

I was asking the breeder why he takes them away :2thumb: quoting you was easier than writing it 

Hope you are all well 

Best Wishes

Neil


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## Amalthea

Ahhh!!! I was a bit confused *lol* (very easily done, I assure you)


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## mark t

Actualy peter i DIDNT shout for business...and yes thats your opinion ! too many people on here that are too opinionated...and i dont need money badly enough to sell on animals to unsuitable homes, and find your remark, not opinion offensive.....freedom of choice and vetting and responsible keeping and re-homing is key to a good reputation...which i have......enuf said i think

mark


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## mark t

no, not silitude....read my first post again.........people obviously have not read my first post correctly......(paired or grouped) and hand-rearing makes de-parasiting and other inspections much easier, and less stressful for the animal.....this is an exotic mammal thread.....is hand-rearing all exotics cruel ?? including parrots ??

mark


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## mark t

Thanx POWER.....your common sense level headed opinion and view is appreciated........you obviously seen from my post that im responsible, where others didnt, instead got on their soap box....in my opinion they shouldnt be posting on an exotic mammal thread if they dont agree with the ethics of hand-rearing...be it a primate, parrot, skunk or racoon etc.etc.

cheers

mark


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## PETERAROBERTSON

Obviously you are not aware of the damage that occurs to marmosets with them being passed on to people with little or no knoledge..they are what i would term as specialist and better control should be given to protect the animals.seen too many cases of unhealthy and damaged animals..


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## loulou

mark t said:


> Thanx POWER.....your common sense level headed opinion and view is appreciated........you obviously seen from my post that im responsible, where others didnt, instead got on their soap box....in my opinion they shouldnt be posting on an exotic mammal thread if they dont agree with the ethics of hand-rearing...be it a primate, parrot, skunk or racoon etc.etc.
> 
> cheers
> 
> mark


:lol2: good luck trying to hand rear a skunk, 

ETA: I only agree with hand rearing rejected animals and thats all I have ever done (personal opinion)

Anyway on another note, I think what Jen is saying is marmosets learn so much from their parents and siblings, taking them away from the family unit early to hand rear means they do not learn these skills which they need to be taught. Forgive me if I am wrong but I was always lead to believe primates need to be taught certain things by siblings and parents rather than use instinct and it can also be very hard to introduce a hand reared primate to a parent reared one/troop as they just do nit understand how to be (in this case) how to be a parent reared marmoset.


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## lizard di

I am sorry that i stirred up such a hornets nest!:lol2:
I am only asking so that when i believe i have every thing ready and have a sound enough knowledge, i will know who to approach, i am wanting to have myself a little animal sanctuary at my home but with exotics and all my animals are well cared for and i have taken rescue reptiles for the rspca and brought them back to health, I wouldnt go into this lightly.
Thank you all for your input though:2thumb:


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## PETERAROBERTSON

So what is the ethics of hand rearing then..for enjoyment..customer satisfaction..my ethics would be to get it back to the parents and stay a monkey...taking offence to an opinion is your choice...but im intitled to an opinion...hand rearing is something that most people im envolved with would only do in extreme cases with the main objective being it getting returned to the troop and staying a monkey.....why do you breed...love of the animals?? More laws are needed to be in place to let monkeys be protected...i cannot under any circumstances agree with what you are saying or even begin to understand...with regard to a common sense level headed opinion..level headed is what i am and have enough years experiance to give an opinion on marmosets....hand rearing creates problems in marmies and if you are responsable and reputable as you state you would be aware of this.... Even compairing them to other animals is a joke in itself..good luck in your respectible future and i hope all your hand reared monkeys end up doing good and hopefully become a monkey again.......there are rights and wrongs in everything and i can only read wrong...i know alot of breaders including in ireland and agan i would stress i do not know any that have views like you....


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## Rum_Kitty

mark t said:


> Thanx POWER.....your common sense level headed opinion and view is appreciated........you obviously seen from my post that im responsible, where others didnt, instead got on their soap box....in my opinion they shouldnt be posting on an exotic mammal thread if they dont agree with the ethics of hand-rearing...be it a primate, parrot, skunk or racoon etc.etc.
> 
> cheers
> 
> mark


Why shouldn't people post on an exotic mammal thread if they don't agree with hand rearing? I think you'll find a huge number of breeders of marms and other animals wouldn't hand rear their animals unless they had no choice. It is not common practise at all.


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## mark t

Again peter you didnt read my first post properly where i very clearly state about testing POTENTIAL keepers knowledge on all aspects of husbandry.....before i even start the vetting process.....sick and unhealthy animals is usually down to improper advice given by the seller, if given at all...and the new owner must heed what advice they have been given by the breeder.....we are breeders, not the police force !

mark


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## gullywhippet

let me get this right, you actually take a baby monkey away from its mother?


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## mark t

well peter, to be honest my females throw 3 young every time and 1 is always hand-reared so it has a good chance of survival...and occasionaly i get asked to hand-rear..these animals do not forget how to be a MONKEY, provided they have a cage mate to interact with (in my first post)...so you can pick holes in the whole primate thing, hand-rearing thing.....so trying to slam a responsible keeper to try and earn points isnt exactly the way to do it ! i merely offered help to someone who asked, when people just jumped on her.......i consider myself to be a very responsible keeper, and without knowing me you cannot criticise or slam me, all you should be doing is giving your opinion without trying to talk down to anyone or insult anyone.

cheers

mark


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## mark t

thats hand-rearing mate......same as any other mammal, bird etc etc. so because this is a primate people are up in arms ?? its an intelligent animal, which copes well and enjoys human company, but i do agree that they need the company of their own kind.....and have stated that the whole way through this thread

mark


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## PETERAROBERTSON

Dont really care what you think..im only interested in the welfare of the animals,,not criticising you.so if the females are having three everytime then why not work to get it back to the troop...what cage mates do you put them with and if you are then why not back to their own troop.why do people ask you too hand rear???like ive already said im intitled to my view and you keep taking it as insult because i dont agree with you!!!!with regard to winning points..from who? You have your views and i have mine...like i said you dont even know who you are offering help too...most primate keepers i know are private people ..


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## gullywhippet

mark t said:


> thats hand-rearing mate......same as any other mammal, bird etc etc. so because this is a primate people are up in arms ?? its an intelligent animal, which copes well and enjoys human company, but i do agree that they need the company of their own kind.....and have stated that the whole way through this thread
> 
> mark


i saw an american program once about people who keep these smaller species of primate,The breeders of these monkeys kept the adults well and in good conditions but taking the babies away from their mothers was second nature to these breeders and they didnt bat an eyelid at the clearly distraught mothers reaching through the bars as their babies were being taken away,it really was hard to watch,the mrs was in tears


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## PETERAROBERTSON

How can you compare a monkey to a bird etc etc..think all with views know what hand rearing is..how do you mean enjoy human company,,,do they have any other option when you have views like yours....they should be with their own kind....permanently...hand rearing and reintroducing is achievable with a bit of effort..really dont understand where you are coming from with any of this..think you would find the majority of genuine breeders would totally disagree with your views...you can hand rear for the right reasons(so it can survive) but they can remain with their own...i do not and did not jump on anyone a mearly said to be prepared for a long process as a true breeder would take time....we started with complette negligence to the species through meeting someone that hand reared and sold....then through gaining more knoledge realised it wasnt the way it should be(after meeting lots of different breeders) what happens if it gets introduced to its own kind and they have babies,,,how would it know what to do?????dont they need to see things like this from mum and dad...or do they learn it whilst being hand reared and moved on......for the right reasons hand rearing can have good results....but hey i dont and am not argueing with you im mearly stating my veiw and a few others veiws about something that im very passionate about and have been for many years now....you have your way and we have ours....but the monkeys should always come first


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## mark t

well to be honest, i dont care what you think either ! so we'l have to agree to disagree, and for the record a large percentage of mine go back into the troop.......but would expect you to disect that aswel..... i offer help....not necessarily marmosets....good luck with your crusade peter.....we all have our own opinions...but everyones objective is to keep these animals fit and healthy and give them a great quality of life

mark


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx

if marmosets should be allowed to be monkeys, shouldnt they be swingin from trees and not enclosed in cages or avairies? just to fizz up this debate a bit :lol2:


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx

well that killed the thread dinnit :whistling2::lol2:


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## Zoo-Man

Amalthea said:


> You take perfectly healthy babies away from their perfectly healthy mother to hand rear and send off to a life of solitude???


Same as some members on here do to Raccoons hun!


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## Zoo-Man

I would only attempt to hand-rear offspring from my marmosets if they were abandoned. I would never hand-rear because someone wanted a tame baby as a pet & asked me to! 

As for hand-rearing other species of animals, personally I am against the removal of baby Raccoons for hand-rearing, just to make them a good pet. As for parrots, you will find many of the more respected keepers actually prefer to obtain parent-reared parrots over hand-reared ones, due to the many complex physchological problems that can occur in hand-reared birds (feather plucking, excessive screeching, etc).


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## PETERAROBERTSON

What do you actually keep..how long have you been keeping..just out of curiosity...you havent given much away in your profile....what age are you mark, again curiosity.this would settle where this experiance has came from..with regard to a crusade,,,bit harsh...i know what im doing is correct as ive been vetted by the proper authorities..can you infact say the same..dont seem to see any response to others responses just mine...so whos on a crusade to get agreement to their ways certainly not me...i work hand in hand with a few zoos up here so can justify my credability...maybe a bit of thought into what you post may save on complicating debates and infact taking it personal...its obvious we dont care,,,but i do care for and about the welfare of primates...you make statements like alot of yours get back to your troops ,,you never stated that in your post...just mentioned in deffence to opinions given...look forward to recieving your answer mark and all the best in your endevours...


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## mark t

bird breeders ONLY prefer parent reared birds over hand-reared, as they stand a better chance of successful breeding due to their wild instinct......buying a parrot for eg.....as a pet....the bird will only fit into a new home if it has been hand-reared......an aviary parrot must never be kept indoors/outdoors as a solitary pet....and this goes the same for a marmoset.

interesting views from different people, all we can hope to do is do right by the animals, and either PRESERVE naturaly, and maybe combine this preservation with our own captive groups, and most importantly... take all necessary resposible measures to ensure that they go to the right, and properly informed homes.....and not to lead a life of solitude. everyone has their own opinions on HAND-REARING or KEEPING IN CAPTIVITY......everyones views and opinions should be respected.......and so should the animals in question.

mark


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## mark t

peter, this isnt personal ! im a 40 year old man with many years experience in many exotics, and not just primates....i respect your views and dont disagree, but these animals are being sold by a lot of unsuitable people, to a lot of unsuitable people....but thats not me ! and like you, i have worked along side the vet for Belfast Zoo. who can vouch for the way i keep my animals, and the measures i take to re-home to the best of our ability . As for vetting....so have i, and am a valid DWA license holder. Leaving some marms in the troop wasnt covered because the debate was on hand-rearing. Its not personal at all, just dont like being attacked for being 1 of the better keepers over here. And as for breeders over here, you may not know this, but the few that i know over here DO hand-rear and sell.....they just dont disclose the fact. but im an honest guy, and am up front about what i do......and dont do it for financial gain...all the best peter

mark


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## PETERAROBERTSON

Cheers for response mark..we will just have to have a difference of opinion with regard to hand rearing to sell..there are a few over here as well that do it.but not me,,never have and never will....


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## mark t

i appreciate and respect your views peter, who knows someday i may think like you......i dont disagree with your views, infact find them admirable.........thanks for your input peter

mark


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## Zoo-Man

mark t said:


> bird breeders ONLY prefer parent reared birds over hand-reared, as they stand a better chance of successful breeding due to their wild instinct......buying a parrot for eg.....as a pet....the bird will only fit into a new home if it has been hand-reared......an aviary parrot must never be kept indoors/outdoors as a solitary pet....and this goes the same for a marmoset.
> 
> interesting views from different people, all we can hope to do is do right by the animals, and either PRESERVE naturaly, and maybe combine this preservation with our own captive groups, and most importantly... take all necessary resposible measures to ensure that they go to the right, and properly informed homes.....and not to lead a life of solitude. everyone has their own opinions on HAND-REARING or KEEPING IN CAPTIVITY......everyones views and opinions should be respected.......and so should the animals in question.
> 
> mark


Incorrect! You will find that most of the highly regarded parrot people (not your regular pet owners) nowadays would not want a hand-reared Cockatoo, for example, due to them being highly prone to abnormal behaviour. A parent-reared Cockatoo, obtained at a young age, can adjust very well, can become tame with patience & training, but will not be so likely to be so highly strung or self-destructive. The same applies to Greys, Macaws & Amazons.


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## Zoo-Man

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Cheers for response mark..we will just have to have a difference of opinion with regard to hand rearing to sell..there are a few over here as well that do it.but not me,,never have and never will....


Same here Peter!


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> if marmosets should be allowed to be monkeys, shouldnt they be swingin from trees and not enclosed in cages or avairies? just to fizz up this debate a bit :lol2:


no one offerin an answer to this?:whistling2:


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## mark t

Actually ZOO MAN, you are so wrong...i hand-rear green-wing macaws, greys etc.....and have done a long time......serious cities listed bird collectors wont hand rear, coz they wanna breed AVIARY birds......a parent reared cockatoo will never realy be completely trustworthy in a family enviornment ! I BREED AND HAND-REAR PARROTS....Do you ???.....have you ever tried to handle, catch to examine a parent reared bird ??? your just arguing for the sake of arguing mate...i can see why people dont realy go in here anymore !.....as for birds, do your homework before you come back with inaccurate information in relation to hand-reared parrots.....dont try and tell people on this forum that a parent reared bird makes a better pet than a hand-reared bird.....because your talking absolute rubbish mate !
parent reared birds are only suitable for breeding programmes.....not pets !

mark


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## brittone05

I am a little confused - if someone wants a marm to introduce to their troop or to a lone marm that they may have knocking about the living room ( lighten this a bit hey lol ) then why would they request a hand reared one?

In my mind, the only thing that separates a hand reared from parent reared anything is that HR will likely be more tame. Granted, they can often display behaviours not associated with PR due to them being removed from their parents and so on.

So my question is - why would any keeper who is serious about primate keeping wsnt to introduce an animal to thier troop who has been raised essentially to be what a human creates not what a primate actually is? Kind of like getting a tiger but taking it's teeth out first ya know - removes the natural element tha should be the fascinating and respected element in the first place 

( MArk - Zooman is a very respected bird keeper IMO along with being a very respected primate keeper also  )


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## mark t

Oh, and highly regarded parrot people wont take on a hand-reared bird... purely because it is of no use in a breeding programme....nothing to do with being highly strung......highly strung is down to the individuals living conditions and way the bird is treated and attention the bird has or has not been given...hand-reared birds that revert back to wild instinct are readily accepted by breeders with little or no complications...again, down to the individual bird !

Experienced Breeder and Hand-rearer ! And the birds welfare always comes first !


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx

zoo man does breed birds yeah, has done for a fair while too to my knowledge 

no ones answerin my question though <sob>


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## brittone05

Hey Cat - don't ya know some of the chavs in Moreton have got trees in the garden for the baby marms they buy from the pet shop


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## gullywhippet

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> zoo man does breed birds yeah, has done for a fair while too to my knowledge
> 
> no ones answerin my question though <sob>


if they were swinging in the trees they wouldn't be in a cage in their living rooms or hand reared and wearing clothes like the child they never had,


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx

gullywhippet said:


> if they were swinging in the trees they wouldn't be in a cage in their living rooms or hand reared and wearing clothes like the child they never had,


 
exactly...... im challenging the comment peter made, not in a horrible way, just find it interesting how hand rearing stops them being marmosets, yet keepin them in a cage or avairy doesnt...... surely marmosets can truly only be marmosets if theyre in their natural habitat?


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## mark t

Hi brittone...yes you are right...hand-rearing allows people to get a little closer and more personal with their marms...but this is always best done in pairs....never singly ! And yes, watchin their natural behaviour in a social group is great...but some keepers (not breeders) just want a pair of animals that they can get realy close to and interact with.....personal choice....not mine, but the customers choice.

comment noted about zoo man, but in my OPINION he's not accurate and this can mislead some people who intend to buy a parrot.....yes, this needs lightened a little....1 thing we all have in common is that we have passion for the animals, and thats why tempers sometimes get frayed....so lets lighten this please....not that i dont like the debate...but no need to scare people from posting on the exotic category


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## kodakira

Hi Cat

Seeing it was me who posted the comment I thought I should answer.

There really isn't an answer.

They are here, so lets do the best we can for them, provide everything we can for them. Lets be honest though we are never going to be able to provide a natural enviroment for them.
Its the same for every exotic animal. Is a skunk a skunk wandering round the living room, is it a skunk if its had its scent glands removed.

My response was to taking a baby away from its parents to rear. Why take a younster away from its parents if they can raise it. The youngster learns all he can from the parents, which then in turn they will pass on to their youngsters.

A quick story.

I purchased a pair of Marmosets that were in cracking condition and was assured they had handling experience.
The pair have had two sets of triplets which have all but one died because the mum and dad abandoned them within hours to a couple of days old. Mum was producing milk but refused to carry as really its not her job. Although producing milk it appeared she did not know how to feed. Dad refused to carry so the babies were left hanging on enclosure sides. Despite efforts to hand rear they died. It was apparent that these Marmosets had no idea what to do. It was heartbreaking for us and for the parents as they cried for the babies long after we had to take them out.
We have finally managed to get mum to raise a baby by literally going to the enclosure as soon as the baby was left on the enclosure side. As she was very protective she would grab baby and put it to her chest, the younster would get a drink. ten mins later though it would be back on the side of the enclosure so we go again and in a way force her to pick baby back up. The baby is now 15 weeks old and will be staying with parents untill he has seen mum give birth again and will hopefully get handling experience.
A simple solution would be to let mum and dad rear if possible then the babies themselves learn from their parents the next time they have babies.
The problem is that too many are taken away to be hand reared or are sold to quickly so they do not learn to handle the next time the parents have the baby. Therefore it is just a spiral from one generation to the next.

Hope you and Ditta are both well.

Neil & Debra


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## gullywhippet

kodakira said:


> Hi Cat
> 
> Seeing it was me who posted the comment I thought I should answer.
> 
> There really isn't an answer.
> 
> They are here, so lets do the best we can for them, provide everything we can for them. Lets be honest though we are never going to be able to provide a natural enviroment for them.
> Its the same for every exotic animal. Is a skunk a skunk wandering round the living room, is it a skunk if its had its scent glands removed.
> 
> My response was to taking a baby away from its parents to rear. Why take a younster away from its parents if they can raise it. The youngster learns all he can from the parents, which then in turn they will pass on to their youngsters.
> 
> A quick story.
> 
> I purchased a pair of Marmosets that were in cracking condition and was assured they had handling experience.
> The pair have had two sets of triplets which have all but one died because the mum and dad abandoned them within hours to a couple of days old. Mum was producing milk but refused to carry as really its not her job. Although producing milk it appeared she did not know how to feed. Dad refused to carry so the babies were left hanging on enclosure sides. Despite efforts to hand rear they died. It was apparent that these Marmosets had no idea what to do. It was heartbreaking for us and for the parents as they cried for the babies long after we had to take them out.
> We have finally managed to get mum to raise a baby by literally going to the enclosure as soon as the baby was left on the enclosure side. As she was very protective she would grab baby and put it to her chest, the younster would get a drink. ten mins later though it would be back on the side of the enclosure so we go again and in a way force her to pick baby back up. The baby is now 15 weeks old and will be staying with parents untill he has seen mum give birth again and will hopefully get handling experience.
> A simple solution would be to let mum and dad rear if possible then the babies themselves learn from their parents the next time they have babies.
> The problem is that too many are taken away to be hand reared or are sold to quickly so they do not learn to handle the next time the parents have the baby. Therefore it is just a spiral from one generation to the next.
> 
> Hope you and Ditta are both well.
> 
> Neil & Debra


i hope breeders who hand rear remember this story next time they are prizing a baby from its mothers grasp,actually they probably know of this uneducated parental behaviour and still continue to sell off young which one day may breed and abandon their young,baby monkeys dying because someone wants a soppy tame monkey,gives you a warm fuzzy feeling inside doesn't it? keep up the good work guys


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## kodakira

gullywhippet said:


> i hope breeders who hand rear remember this story next time they are prizing a baby from its mothers grasp,actually they probably know of this uneducated parental behaviour and still continue to sell off young which one day may breed and abandon their young,baby monkeys dying because someone wants a soppy tame monkey,gives you a warm fuzzy feeling inside doesn't it? keep up the good work guys


 
Thankyou.

I think that was the point of some of the replies on here to try and point out how valuable it is to let the youngsters get experience.

Which in my opinion is keeping them correctly but obviously it does not stop there. If you are to rehome them then they need to go to the right home, right environment and someone with the right ethics.

Best Wishes

Neil


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## gullywhippet

kodakira said:


> Thankyou.
> 
> I think that was the point of some of the replies on here to try and point out how valuable it is to let the youngsters get experience.
> 
> Which in my opinion is keeping them correctly but obviously it does not stop there. If you are to rehome them then they need to go to the right home, right environment and someone with the right ethics.
> 
> Best Wishes
> 
> Neil


i agree ,luckily someone like you ended up with those marms,but you still had a bunch of dead monkeys due to a previous keeper/breeders actions


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## lotti

We have marmi's and I would never pull them to handrear them as they are never properly handleable and I can't understand why anyone would want them to be, if ppl want a pet to dress up and cuddle why don't they get a domestic pet that has been domesticated for hundreds of years and not an exotic one that have totally different needs, the whole point of them bein exotic! It's like removin the venom from a a venomous snake to make them just like a corn! Just get a blummin corn then!


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## brittone05

mark t said:


> Hi brittone...yes you are right...hand-rearing allows people to get a little closer and more personal with their marms...but this is always best done in pairs....never singly ! And yes, watchin their natural behaviour in a social group is great...but some keepers (not breeders) just want a pair of animals that they can get realy close to and interact with.....personal choice....not mine, but the customers choice.


Thanks MArk

It interests me that you say that some keepers ( not breeders ) would want animals that they can closely interact with in such a way.

As a breeder yourself and obviously a keeper also, do you feel that someone who wishes to have hand reared primates is the best candidate to become a keeper?

I ask because, IMO, primates are above and beyond your average "hobby exotic". I know that the vast majority of species are in some way modified through years of captive keeping through the generations and such - skunks, sugar gliders etc but do you feel that primates should be included in that catagory? I don't beleive that making primates an elitist species is a solution but do you, as a breeder, feel that primates should be licensed heavily to ensure that the average hobby keeper is not in a position to request hand reared babies?

( I apologise if it appears I have singled you out in my questions but I have never really spoken to you about primates before and, as you can see, it is something that peaks my interest levels  )


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## miss_ferret

i dont keep marmosets (there adorable but keeping them as a pet dosent appeal to me) but i do have a lot of experience with hand rearing various (admitidly farm based in most cases) animals. however the one animal who a lot of the discussion on here reminded me of is my now 1 year old barn owl. to get any degree of tameness (and therefore the ability for a person to train them) from an owl handrearing is usually essential. i got munchkin at 6 weeks old, he was hatched in an incubator along with his 3 siblings, who where sold at 4 weeks. he saw noone but the breeder and his family until i collected him. as far as hes concerned im his mum, he hates men (even though his breeder was male) and is very capeable of inflicting an injury when in a strop, its unlikely that he could breed naturaly and if he could its very unlikely that he'd know what to do with a chic. the point im trying to make is that handrearing is very rarely in the best intrest of the animal, munch is very happy (infact some would point out that hes a spoilt brat) but he is not the owl he would be if hed been left with his parents. we handrear animals for our own gain not theres and i do believe that someone who loves a species loves them for what they really are, not what we have molded them into. personally the moment i have room im going to start taking on injured wild barn owls.

appologies for going off on one a bit there :lol2:


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## Zoo-Man

mark t said:


> Actually ZOO MAN, you are so wrong...i hand-rear green-wing macaws, greys etc.....and have done a long time......serious cities listed bird collectors wont hand rear, coz they wanna breed AVIARY birds......a parent reared cockatoo will never realy be completely trustworthy in a family enviornment ! I BREED AND HAND-REAR PARROTS....Do you ???.....have you ever tried to handle, catch to examine a parent reared bird ??? your just arguing for the sake of arguing mate...i can see why people dont realy go in here anymore !.....as for birds, do your homework before you come back with inaccurate information in relation to hand-reared parrots.....dont try and tell people on this forum that a parent reared bird makes a better pet than a hand-reared bird.....because your talking absolute rubbish mate !
> parent reared birds are only suitable for breeding programmes.....not pets !
> 
> mark


I am not wrong! It is true that many of the most renowned parrot experts will recommend people do not buy a hand-reared Cockatoo, but instead buy a steady, young parent-reared Cockatoo. If you are so heavily involved in the parrot world, you will know about the ever increasing number of Cockatoos being rehomed over & over again, & the state that some of these birds end up in (featherless, self-mutilated, etc). The main reason for this is because hand-reared Cockatoos when babies are the most cuddly adorable baby parrots you can get. Then, when they start to mature, they become ever more demanding, & when their owner is out at work all day, the bird starts to develop worser & worser behavioural problems because of its frustration to be with its owner. A steady parent-reared Cockatoo can become trusting of its owner, learn to enjoy human company, but will not be so demanding of attention, which eliminates the phschological problems that are commonplace with Toos.


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## mark t

Hi Brittone...i absolutely agree with all primates (and other intelligent or harder to care for species) being licensed only...because this will deter many people from even seeking them....this also aids in the monitoring of breeders/keepers facilities...and monitoring the sale of the offspring to unsuitable/un-licensed keepers...i believe that by introducing these procedures that all breeders/keepers will comply willingly......and this in itself will protect the marms of the future...

mark


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## mark t

oh brittone......i also believe that a lot of marm keepers have to start somewhere.....and its usually as a keeper, keeping 1, 2 or 3 animals......then they usually proceed to breeder after a few years and many problems and learning curves later....which most of us experience in the beginning....but i do think its unfair to class ourselves as ELITISTS in our field...every dedicated person should have the right to learn.....and we should help where and when we can.......Did anyone mention dressing marmosets in baby clothes or dresses ?? i dont know or have ever met anyone who does this..its sickening !


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## mat_worrell

One thing I would say with this whole licensing idea (just my thoughts over the last few days as it has come up a few times now) is that do you not think that if people want to keep a primate and the only way they can is with a license they will do what they need to to get a licence, jump through the various hoops to obtain the licence and they go on to keep the primate how ever they see fit after that? The only thing that keeps everyone separate is the care and attention they have for the animals they keep. So people don't care as long as they can say they own a certain animal, some people do the bare minimum to meet the needs of an animal and some people are so passionate they will do anything and even go without to provide for the animals they keep. The only way I see that things can change for the better is questioning the reasons why people want to keep certain animals an this cannot be done, in my opinion through the form of a licence. It needs to be done by the people selling the animals. They need to care about the animals and the way in which they will be care for by who ever is buying them. They are the ones that need to be stricter rathe than thinking of money. I know this does happen in the form of vetting, but to what extent and how many actualy care enough to say no to someone that doesn't meet a suitable vetting standard when someone is waving cash in their face? I think a sensible way of progressing and ensuring an animal will be kept in optimum conditions would be to by law enforce some kind of set standard for vetting. Something that puts the breeder or dealer at a legal obligation to ensure anyone purchasing any animal from them is suitable to do so. This will ensure that those breeders that want to make money will be fizzled out and those that care shine through. Maybe even a legal contract between seller and buyer. The seller is legally stating that to the bet of their knowledge the buyer is well equipped and well educated to look after and provide for the animal. And the buy is signing to say that they will ensure that they will do the best they can to ensure the animal is cared for properly. So that is for instance RSPCA get involved with a distressed animal that can look and see who is at fault, seller or buyer. If the buyer knowing has sold to some one that has not got a clue and is keeping something in a shoe box they get punished. If the buyer provided false information and is keeping the animal thereafter in substandard conditions they are punished. 

Just my thoughts, gone off on a bit of a tangent there but like I said. I see that in some one really is intent on keeping an animal they know nothing about, they will jump hoops, obtain what they need and then proceed to keep the animal in substandard conditions. This unfortunately is life and will always happen. I'm not saying it should be accepted because it happens but to be honest I cannot see a way of 'policing' it. What do you think?


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## brittone05

I agree to some extent Mat - I do think that legalising certain aspects would help. However, DWA animals are licensed and regular checks done ( far as I know but may be wrong? ) why could primates not have the same? People respect a cobra because it can kill you - why can't they respect primates because substandard levels of knowledge and primate-primate interaction can kill them


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## PETERAROBERTSON

Ok ,,swinging in trees is where monkeys should be...that would refer to all animals and all cases...snakes,geckos,beardies,meerkats,skunks any animal.(i know these dont swing in trees).so infact none of us have the right to keep anything...we all keep to the best of our ability and to the best of the animals needs...i personaly didnt respond because i found it irelavant this could be debated about all animals...where would the marmosets and tamarins go..man is destroying there habitat..some of us like to look at it as keeping the species going..like article 10 ...endangered species..if it wasnt for keepers they would not be on the planet ...so hope this response is ok...back to hand rearing...removing from parents for customer requirements is infact finantial....to meet customer needs not animal welfare..you can react with a pair,or troop when they are not hand reared just the same...we have many and they all interact with us...none of which are hand reared...ive never been bitten with any type of interaction or even infact attact....can you say the same of hand reared animals....most hand reared get that used to being around humans they are that comfortable that they do what they do best...bite...you see it all the time ,,people wanting hand reared marmosets ,,so as they can interact with them...then all of a sudden they mature and start bitting etc etc..and then become unwanted pets due to their behavour and get moved on and rescued etc etc..if the customers as you stated want to learn and react with monkeys ,,,shouldnt they be doing it too the monkeys standards and not theres...step into the monkeys world and stop forcing them to step or live in ours...this will never be excepted and the standards for keeping monkeys should be for the best for the monkey and not for the keeper..this in my opinion is for finantial gain and not animal welfare...its wrong and always will be..yes this is my opinion,,,not a crusade....majority are the same as myself....why remove a perfectly natural pair of babies to hand rear just to meet customer satisfaction....the animals need to come first...are you creating a trauma for mum and dad for no reason other than to please the buyer..or dont they feel anything...we have witnessed this due to a baby not beeing strong enough...long labour for mum and baby and baby wasnt strong enough to cling to feed etc...we removed to try to get strength up..whilst watching the troop on cctv...mums reactions were quite traumatic...serching for her offspring etc...i personaly think they do feel,they know whats happening ,,even down to babies dying,,i think they greive..again this is my opinion from witnessing first hand...i could never under any circumstances remove natural babies to please a prospective buyer as this would be for finantial gain and not best for the animals concerned...laws should be made to stop this but as most have stated laws get broken..we never advertise to sell and again never would...most breaders move stock to make unrelated pairs...yes sometimes monies can be exchanged but that is the way of it..to benifit the keeping and possible future pairs not to buy a new soffa...it should all be about the monkeys...not about people wanting the latest fad.....christ help us if paris hilton is ever seen on tv with a monkey in a handbag..but that may generate some buissiness for certain keepers.


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## mark t

Hi Peter, yes i do believe they grieve, and have witnessed similar events, for lots of different reasons...3rd weakest infant, hand-rearing etc etc... but until the laws change and peoples way of thinking changes.....theres nothing more id love than to never see ANY primate in captivity again (only to re-stock wild groups).......if i thought that this could be achieved, id give mine up tomorrow.....but can you realy ever see this happening ?? any financial gain that i make goes back into feeding, equipment and general maintenance and aquiring new bloodlines......is that real financial gain ?? And just to touch on the "waving cash in the face of the seller"......i have refused many people over the years....but a lot more recently, who i believe to be wanting a "Living breathing doll", or a toy for little william, and also the 1,s that have helicopters to fly to work, or the family next door who have everything and just want a trophy "PET MONKEY"....i have refused all such people...and im usualy very sharp when doing so, especially when they cant even answer basic husbandry questions. So peter, we can only do so much, its the general public that need educated, and more stern laws and inspections need to be introduced in order for breeders/keepers to push forward with what realy matters....the animals health...and more importantly ..... survival of the species....thanks for your views

mark


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## kodakira

Hi Mark

I really find it difficult to work out where your coming from

You say you have the best interests of your animals at heart.

You refuse homes to '' wrong people ''

You say you believe the animals grieve

You state '' but until the laws change and peoples way of thinking changes.....theres nothing more id love than to never see ANY primate in captivity again (only to re-stock wild groups.''

You state '' i absolutely agree with all primates (and other intelligent or harder to care for species) being licensed only...because this will deter many people from even seeking them....this also aids in the monitoring of breeders/keepers facilities...and monitoring the sale of the offspring to unsuitable/un-licensed keepers...i believe that by introducing these procedures that all breeders/keepers will comply willingly......and this in itself will protect the marms of the future ''.
If that happened then pulling for handrearing for the customer would probably be no longer be applicable. If you totally agree with licencing why are you doing it now.

Why do you need the law to change. If you would give up your primates why are you not willing to refuse customers who want hand rear babies. It is your choice whether to pull babies or not. You are able to refuse customers. It is your choice whether to stress the parents when pulling babies, you yourself stated you believe they grieve when pulling the babies.

So why do you do it ?. 


You are potentionally putting the babies lives at risk by pulling them.
You are putting the chance of future babies of those you sell at a very high risk of death as the babies you hand rear have no handling experience etc.

As I say I find it difficult to understand your arguement.

Best Wishes

Neil


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## PETERAROBERTSON

Ive read your response mark and find that neil has already picked up and replied in the same manner that i would have....why take away to satisfy customers...if i had to sell to keep up the maintinance of all my troops i would give them up..we instead gave up any type of social lifestyle..gave up drinking,,smoking etc...havent been on a holiday for over 20yrs,,,our choice again and our values...we devote our time and money to looking after our animals...yes there are certainly times that cash would pass hands...if i met you and found you to be similar to myself..if there wasnt an exchange of bloodlines etc..then i would expect to buy or sell,,whatever the case may be...although i would stress that this would never happen as i couldnt have it on my mind the thought that any of mine that were passed on would have the chance of being put through unnessecary truama just to meet customers satisfaction,,well only if they answer your questions correctly. I find it strange the amount of contradictions you made,,i also find it hard to believe your envolvement with belfast zoo...unless they are unaware of your customers needs...i know of no one that would agree with this practice....you say you turn awat the need for a trophy pet...then why feel the need to meet them half way by removing and handrearing...i dont understand your logic and find your keeping standards un satisfying..but as ive said in previous posts there are primate keepers and there are primate breaders..we are definately keepers...what if they wanted to hand rear the animal theirself..would you allow that...you could supervise to educate..is the success rate of hand rearing that high that this type of practice is good for the saving of the species????anyway mark im getting tired of this debate as it seems you are part of a minority that are too set in their ways..


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## mark t

actually peter at no point did i say i worked with belfast zoo...to be accurate, i said i have worked along side the vet for the zoo.....thats a little different do you not think ?? i also didnt say that hand-rearing protects the species, i said that in an ideal world that none would be kept in captivity, only to re-colonize wild stocks....you mis-read what i have said or maybe twisted it a little.....im bored with this debate now too to be honest......you and neil both seem to want to cross examine primate keepers who log-on here, and also deter potential keepers......to be honest i admire your passion, but not the way you try to ram it and ethics down peoples throat......and that goes for 1 or 2 others.....remember guys, this is your opinion only, please let others have theirs......good luck with the future

best wishes

mark


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## tomwilson

mark t said:


> Actually ZOO MAN, you are so wrong...i hand-rear green-wing macaws, greys etc.....and have done a long time......serious cities listed bird collectors wont hand rear, coz they wanna breed AVIARY birds......a parent reared cockatoo will never realy be completely trustworthy in a family enviornment ! I BREED AND HAND-REAR PARROTS....Do you ???.....have you ever tried to handle, catch to examine a parent reared bird ??? your just arguing for the sake of arguing mate...*i can see why people dont realy go in here anymore !*.....as for birds, do your homework before you come back with inaccurate information in relation to hand-reared parrots.....dont try and tell people on this forum that a parent reared bird makes a better pet than a hand-reared bird.....because your talking absolute rubbish mate !
> parent reared birds are only suitable for breeding programmes.....not pets !
> 
> mark


odd that you can see this transition since you only joined the forum this month.


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## mat_worrell

Not wanting to get into any debate here but I have spoken to Peter through this site, email and through phone calls. In my opinion he is arguing his point, which he believes in, and is not and would not be arguing for the sake of it. He is very passionate about his primates and is only arguing what he believes in.


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## Zoo-Man

kodakira said:


> Hi Mark
> 
> I really find it difficult to work out where your coming from
> 
> You say you have the best interests of your animals at heart.
> 
> You refuse homes to '' wrong people ''
> 
> You say you believe the animals grieve
> 
> You state '' but until the laws change and peoples way of thinking changes.....theres nothing more id love than to never see ANY primate in captivity again (only to re-stock wild groups.''
> 
> You state '' i absolutely agree with all primates (and other intelligent or harder to care for species) being licensed only...because this will deter many people from even seeking them....this also aids in the monitoring of breeders/keepers facilities...and monitoring the sale of the offspring to unsuitable/un-licensed keepers...i believe that by introducing these procedures that all breeders/keepers will comply willingly......and this in itself will protect the marms of the future ''.
> If that happened then pulling for handrearing for the customer would probably be no longer be applicable. If you totally agree with licencing why are you doing it now.
> 
> Why do you need the law to change. If you would give up your primates why are you not willing to refuse customers who want hand rear babies. It is your choice whether to pull babies or not. You are able to refuse customers. It is your choice whether to stress the parents when pulling babies, you yourself stated you believe they grieve when pulling the babies.
> 
> So why do you do it ?.
> 
> 
> You are potentionally putting the babies lives at risk by pulling them.
> You are putting the chance of future babies of those you sell at a very high risk of death as the babies you hand rear have no handling experience etc.
> 
> As I say I find it difficult to understand your arguement.
> 
> Best Wishes
> 
> Neil





PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Ive read your response mark and find that neil has already picked up and replied in the same manner that i would have....why take away to satisfy customers...if i had to sell to keep up the maintinance of all my troops i would give them up..we instead gave up any type of social lifestyle..gave up drinking,,smoking etc...havent been on a holiday for over 20yrs,,,our choice again and our values...we devote our time and money to looking after our animals...yes there are certainly times that cash would pass hands...if i met you and found you to be similar to myself..if there wasnt an exchange of bloodlines etc..then i would expect to buy or sell,,whatever the case may be...although i would stress that this would never happen as i couldnt have it on my mind the thought that any of mine that were passed on would have the chance of being put through unnessecary truama just to meet customers satisfaction,,well only if they answer your questions correctly. I find it strange the amount of contradictions you made,,i also find it hard to believe your envolvement with belfast zoo...unless they are unaware of your customers needs...i know of no one that would agree with this practice....you say you turn awat the need for a trophy pet...then why feel the need to meet them half way by removing and handrearing...i dont understand your logic and find your keeping standards un satisfying..but as ive said in previous posts there are primate keepers and there are primate breaders..we are definately keepers...what if they wanted to hand rear the animal theirself..would you allow that...you could supervise to educate..is the success rate of hand rearing that high that this type of practice is good for the saving of the species????anyway mark im getting tired of this debate as it seems you are part of a minority that are too set in their ways..


:notworthy:


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## mark t

i have eyes and ears tom, and this isnt the only forum in the UK.......so word does get about, people being jumped on and put down by so called experienced senior members..............seems to be a lot of people on here with nothing better to do than criticise and attack people...the forum is for providing help and advice to the general public.....not ramming your own personal views and opinions down peoples throats......all the best guys !

mark


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## kodakira

mark t said:


> i have eyes and ears tom, and this isnt the only forum in the UK.......so word does get about, people being jumped on and put down by so called experienced senior members..............seems to be a lot of people on here with nothing better to do than criticise and attack people...the forum is for providing help and advice to the general public.....not ramming your own personal views and opinions down peoples throats......all the best guys !
> 
> mark


I apologise if you think I am ramming my opinion down your throat !!!.

I have gone back over my posts and I don't think my posts have critisised or attacked you in any way. I think my posts were more questions than pointing the finger or telling you what to do.
Especially my last post which asked you some questions about statements you had made but then seemed to do the opposite. It appeared you were saying you would welcome a change of law ( licencing ) that would make you to change your practises and that you would welcome those changes.

Best Wishes

Neil

Neil


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## cardinalgrom

wow!! and i was told the exotics was the most easy going bunch on here!! and as for previous posts about "tearing the marmoset from its mothers teet" if you were that botherd about the animals natural well-being then you wouldnt have one as a PET...

surley this is fine as long as its done by a person trained to do it well, there aint nothing wrong with it, its a PET at the end of the day and we buy them for OUR enjoyment.

Please dont take the above as me not caring about animal welfare as i do but i also believe that these CAPTIVE animals we keep as pets are to be treated by such if the OWNER wishes, though it is nice to see them in their natural habitat and to create one in your home is awsome but you shouldnt judge others for choosing to hand rear so they make EXELLENT PETS THAT THE NEW OWNERS WOULD NEVER THINK ABOUT GETTING RID OF THEM BECAUSE THEY BITE.

i hope that all made sense...

DONT JUMP ON ME THOUGH!! IM A SNAKE GUY MY WIFE DOES THE EXOTIC MAMMALS!


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## mark t

Hi cardinalgrom......At last a common sense opinion.......you hit the nail right on the head ! all the doo gooders on here seem to forget that keeping primates at all in captivity can be deemed CRUEL......be it hand-reared or kept in an aviary......wire and bars still exist.....so all those who have been challenging the ethics of hand-rearing, realy should be thinking and asking themselves WHY any of us keep primates in captivity (unless helping replace endangered species stocks)......so come on guys and lets stop being hippocrits ! .....the forum is a place for ADVICE and INFORMATION....AND NOT A PEDASTEL TO PREACH TO OTHERS OR FORCE PERSONAL VIEWS AND OPINIONS ON OTHERS !....Oh, and no offense taken Neil.....and this post isnt intended to offend anyone....sorry if people dont see it like that.....

mark


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## PETERAROBERTSON

You seem to be getting a good buzz from one person giving their veiw mark....did you not see that he doesnt keep them hes a snake man....anyone refering to marmies as pets would give me that impretion anyway....yes this forum is for advice but if any member detrmines things to be wrong then is that not advice or opoinion maybe...i do not know anyone who would let marmies go for pets...not any true keeper anyway,yes i know there are plenty that do...but i no of none..we keep them in captivity for the love of the animals...they are captive bread...if there was a situation that they could be returned to the wild then most would do that with the young but not stop keeping or breading....commons without so much captive breeding would end up going the same way as there are many out there that would do anything to achieve there goals and if that meant them being smuggled in aligal trade then it would happen.....so again i would state that you are and always will be in a minority when it comes to removing young to hand rear when there was no need to do it other than human needs and as for the person saying there is nothing wrong with it,,please do a bit of reaserch into hand rearing of small primates and when you see how low the rate is then maybe your opinion will change....


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## mark t

Why do you keep them peter ?? what makes you think that you are better, or that you are any better qualified to keep them than others.....because thats how you are coming across.......cardinalgrom was commenting without wearing blinkers ! you say that hand-rearing is not keeping them correctly, however neither is having them in your aviary, unless your breeding or rehabilitating them to re-introduce to the wild.....ARE YOU ?? you say that you have kept and bred these animals for over 20 years...are you trying to honestly expect me (or anyone else) to believe that you have not financialy gained, because if you havnt gained financialy, im sure you must have hundreds of marmosets now in your care....because as you say, you are so careful as to where yours go....im pretty sure you didnt give them away ! cardinalgrom obviously hasnt been exposed to any brainwashing, and was merely giving his views....remember, something we are all entitled to......so the term Hippocrit still springs to mind....and please dont take offense, but your obviously not used to someone standing up to you and challenging your over the top and hippocritical views. A primate keeper is just that....keeping them captive ! in any shape or form.....dressing up your reasons for keeping them in no way vindicates you.....

mark


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## brittone05

cardinalgrom said:


> wow!! and i was told the exotics was the most easy going bunch on here!! and as for previous posts about "tearing the marmoset from its mothers teet" if you were that botherd about the animals natural well-being then you wouldnt have one as a PET...
> 
> surley this is fine as long as its done by a person trained to do it well, there aint nothing wrong with it, i*ts a PET at the end of the day and we buy them for OUR enjoyment.*
> 
> Please dont take the above as me not caring about animal welfare as i do but i also believe that these CAPTIVE animals we keep as pets are to be treated by such if the OWNER wishes, though it is nice to see them in their natural habitat and to create one in your home is awsome but you shouldnt judge others for *choosing to hand rear so they make EXELLENT PETS THAT THE NEW OWNERS WOULD NEVER THINK ABOUT GETTING RID OF THEM BECAUSE THEY BITE.*
> 
> i hope that all made sense...
> 
> DONT JUMP ON ME THOUGH!! IM A SNAKE GUY MY WIFE DOES THE EXOTIC MAMMALS!


Hey Cardinal

Can I please ask why you feel that primates can be successfully kept as "pets"?

I don't keep them myself and have no desire to whatsoever regardless of how they have been reared, trained, dressed and so on.

As someone who has kept and got experience with a variety of exotics, I find the whole primates as pets thing very disturbing. For me, it would be like someone taking a newborn child from it's human mother - that is the level of distress that primates feel 

( and beleive me when I say, my views come through no brainwashing or arse licking - they come from my morals, my beleifs and endless hours of research into the damage caused by human requirements where primates are concerned  )


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## mark t

As you can see, a newcomer gives their OPINION and immediately challenged ! think iv made my point .......THAT PEOPLE ARE CONTINUOUSLY CHALLENGED ON HERE BY A SELECT FEW.......WELL DONE GUYS ! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK .......AND OF COURSE THE ARSE LICKING AND BRAINWASHING....THATS ALL I HAVE TO SAY....DONT WANNA GET THROWN OFF THIS WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE SECTION, WHICH HAS SO MANY PEOPLE WILLING TO HELP OTHERS........PROVIDED THAT THEY AGREE WITH THEM THAT IS ! GOOD LUCK ALL !

MARK


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## mark t

One final thing that puzzles me also......you said...." WE KEEP THEM IN CAPTIVITY FOR THE LOVE OF THE ANIMALS".....these were your own words...care to explain what the difference is in you loving your animals, but if people dont keep them as you do, or have hand-reared marmosets...you imply that they dont love theres....how very wrong you are peter......as we have both stated, until the legislation changes, we will have to agree to differ.

mark


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## PETERAROBERTSON

Unnessesery truama mark is not loving animals.....forgive the spelling..but yes we do agree on one thing and thats to agree to dissagree...peter


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## PETERAROBERTSON

Have quite large troops of various species mark..troop disruption and helping zoos make new pairs..finantial gain dont think so...over £100 a week on food and theres still the supliments and then the £400 a month on electricity...i work through the day doing feeding before i go to work..my wifes here through the day and i do the mucking out at weekend....theres lots do different things mate but some do wrong(in my opinion) it all boils down to why you do what you do and to what standards you set..as ive said opinions differ and so so does keeping standards.keeping reasons as well...would this be ok to do with geoldies or cotton tops..no as there article 10...i say make them all art10 and tighten up in marmies getting killed by unnessesery methods to please people....i felt after reading further it warented an answer...


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## mark t

Yes peter, as i said..they all need protected from us...HUMANS ! and yes article 10 is a way forward, but then article 10 status would be given not for the reason it was created (to protect wild populations)...but as i said, in a perfect world, none of us would or should have them....thanks for your views, and wasnt trying to offend or argue, but we all know how sesitive the whole PRIMATE KEEPING issue is...thanks again

mark


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## cardinalgrom

brittone05 said:


> Hey Cardinal
> 
> Can I please ask why you feel that primates can be successfully kept as "pets"?
> 
> I don't keep them myself and have no desire to whatsoever regardless of how they have been reared, trained, dressed and so on.
> 
> As someone who has kept and got experience with a variety of exotics, I find the whole primates as pets thing very disturbing. For me, it would be like someone taking a newborn child from it's human mother - that is the level of distress that primates feel
> 
> ( and beleive me when I say, my views come through no brainwashing or arse licking - they come from my morals, my beleifs and endless hours of research into the damage caused by human requirements where primates are concerned  )


you all make me laugh, keeping any animal in captivity rather than its natural habitat is a PET unless its in a zoo or breeding program. any mother whether primate,dolphin, dog or cat feels loss at a young one being taken from their arms/paws/wings..primates arnt a in a special bracket.

they do not in my opinion make good pets, and like i mentioned im a snake guy and even then i dont think giant breeds of snale should be kept as pets but owners of them would disagree with me, but my wife has a few expotis around the house and we share the same opinion.

and just one last question..WHAT MADE ALL YOU BREEDER/KEEPERS fist buy a marmoset? why did you want one?? FOR YOUR OWN PLEASURE at keeping them, please dont try to put on a veil, just be honest, animals have been kept as pets for centuries and looked after differantly by each and every person, they all have different views,tricks and opinions, hand rearing must be sucessful otherwise none would survive nor would the femal have another, if their anything like parrots they would probably die if it was that traumatic. 

if you really want to help the little guys petition for them to be made illegal as pets and return all the the wild or perhaps a sactuary if they cannot cope in the wild (i mean sanctuary as in the vast open land ones and not another "slightly bigger cage".

ultimatly what im saying is WE ALL SHOULD AGREE TO DISAGREE and respect each breeder and keeper for what they do as anyone selling babies from groups/hareems or whatever handreared or not must be doing somthing right for the little guys to be happy enough to go at it like rabbits, and i also respect the fact that you all VET the would be owners/buyers, and i believe it should be the case of breeders/keepers (keepers is just a posh name for owners really isnt it..) of all pet animals to follow your foot steps, 

you are all obviously very caring for your animals else you wouldnt give it tooth and nail defending your breeding/caring teqnuices (sory i have problems with dislexia- but i dont find misspellings to be a hinder) but you should be open to other ways and means of looking after them. 

and try not to be-little those who have different opinions to your own.


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## cardinalgrom

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Have quite large troops of various species mark..troop disruption and helping zoos make new pairs..finantial gain dont think so...over £100 a week on food and theres still the supliments and then the £400 a month on electricity...i work through the day doing feeding before i go to work..my wifes here through the day and i do the mucking out at weekend....theres lots do different things mate but some do wrong(in my opinion) it all boils down to why you do what you do and to what standards you set..as ive said opinions differ and so so does keeping standards.keeping reasons as well...would this be ok to do with geoldies or cotton tops..no as there article 10...i say make them all art10 and tighten up in marmies getting killed by unnessesery methods to please people....i felt after reading further it warented an answer...


well why didnt you get them neutred? that would stop exess marmasettes wouldnt it? and perhaps that way the captive/pet population would lessen greatly (as there arnt many of you guys around)?


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## mark t

Absolutely agree ! I wanted to keep marms because over the years had kept an array of different exotics...and was intrigued by the antics of primates.....and neutering would greatly reduce the captive populations over the next 15 years...to see virtually none after this time..they would in effect die out in captivity !
And yes as i said previously, people should be respected, whatever their views and opinions....as long as they take steps to ensure that marmosets, or any other primate do not end up in the wrong hands........Thanks very much for your input Cardinalgorm

mark


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## Zoo-Man

cardinalgrom said:


> wow!! and i was told the exotics was the most easy going bunch on here!! and as for previous posts about "tearing the marmoset from its mothers teet" if you were that botherd about the animals natural well-being then you wouldnt have one as a PET...
> 
> surley this is fine as long as its done by a person trained to do it well, there aint nothing wrong with it, its a PET at the end of the day and we buy them for OUR enjoyment.
> 
> Please dont take the above as me not caring about animal welfare as i do but i also believe that these CAPTIVE animals we keep as pets are to be treated by such if the OWNER wishes, though it is nice to see them in their natural habitat and to create one in your home is awsome but you shouldnt judge others for choosing to hand rear so they make EXELLENT PETS THAT THE NEW OWNERS WOULD NEVER THINK ABOUT GETTING RID OF THEM BECAUSE THEY BITE.
> 
> i hope that all made sense...
> 
> DONT JUMP ON ME THOUGH!! IM A SNAKE GUY MY WIFE DOES THE EXOTIC MAMMALS!


Im sorry but that was the biggest load of bullsh*t I have read on the forum for while! By your reasoning, just because an animal is in captivity & is kept as a pet, it must accept anything that its owners do to it or put upon it?!?!? WTF!!!


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## mat_worrell

I have been watching this thread very closely but up till now have reseved my self from making many comments as I can see this thread has the potential to pull you in get into quite a debate. Which I do not want ( as the last time this happened I was penalised unfairly with an infraction. ) BUT one thing that has made me want to comment is your post cardialgrom, you say that if we really want to help them petition to make it illegal to keep them. I just woundered ( and that's all it is I'm not causing an argument ) if you would do the same for the keeping of large snakes as you say you disagree with keeping them. Being a reptile person and quite clearly a snake love would you petition to make an animal/species/breed that you have a passion for illegal? I get that if you disagree with keeping them then you disagree but would you go as far as making it illegal? Or would you just express your views and opinions with knowledge and back up with a strong degree of passion? As from what I am reading that's all Peter, Neil, Colin etc are doing. 

I only ask as being a fellow primate keeper, I choose to keep primates for the love of the animal/species. As I say I choose to, which means I have an obligation to right by them, keep them appropriately and respect and feel privileged to keep them (or any animal) as I do not Believe, like a lot of people that it is a right to keep an animal. Like Peter said keeping primates comes at an expense ( a pretty large one ) and as again I choose to keep them have to pay that expence. I would not dream of thinking, oh I can't afford the cost of feeding them this month so thy can have whatever I have got they won't have thief specialist diet this month. And equally bringing it back more to subject as I know I have rattled on, would not dream of pulling a baby from mum to hand raise and sell on on a regular basis or to customes requirment to fund the up keep of the primates. Because as I said I took the decision to take the animals into my care so I pay the upkeep. 

I don't want you to think this is all aimed at you cardinalgrom cause it's not, only my question about snakes. 

Also this is not meant to antagonise or offend anyone just my views, opinions and thoughts. 

Mat.


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## cardinalgrom

i wouldnt make anything illegal to keep, if someone wants one why should i stop them? it was merley a statment in reaction to article 10, but you must admit you keep them FOR YOUR PLEASURE at the end of the day thus they are and will remain pets, you must understand that.

And yes i believe as pets they must put up with what the owner wishes to do (within reason, i dont believe in uneccessary cruelty to animals) i mean they already have to put up with being in a cage, eating what you have selected for them, live with whom you choose.

The animals are not free, which i dont have any opinons on exept that they are pets and good owners do whats best for them.

People seem to completley miss the point i keep trying to make and point out the odd thing i say out of context, this may be my fault due to poor grammar, i just wish youd understand my point and that of other keepers who choose to raise their primates differently.


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## miss_ferret

i think (please correct me if im wrong) that most peoples problem is the fact that for hand rearing the baby (in the belief that it makes it a better pet) must be taken away from the mother. from what i understand marmosets (unlike birds ect) form very close bonds with their young from birth and removing the baby is stressfull to the mother. this obviously does not apply if the mother is neglecting the baby or if the baby will die if left in the mothers care but there are some moral/ethical issues with removing a perfectly healthy baby from a mother very capeable of rearing it.

like i have said before, primates are not my thing so the above may or may not be correct but it is my interpreatation of what has been said.


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## cardinalgrom

miss_ferret said:


> i think (please correct me if im wrong) that most peoples problem is the fact that for hand rearing the baby (in the belief that it makes it a better pet) must be taken away from the mother. from what i understand marmosets (unlike birds ect) form very close bonds with their young from birth and removing the baby is stressfull to the mother. this obviously does not apply if the mother is neglecting the baby or if the baby will die if left in the mothers care but there are some moral/ethical issues with removing a perfectly healthy baby from a mother very capeable of rearing it.
> 
> like i have said before, primates are not my thing so the above may or may not be correct but it is my interpreatation of what has been said.


youd be suprised how many pet species are close to their young


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## durbans

Since I joined RFUK, I have occaisionally read some threads in this section of the forum with interest, as I find primates incredibly interesting creatures. I have no experience or knowledge of keeping primates in captivity, but I wonder how many people have enclosures which would measure up to the same size as a primate enclosure in a Zoo? 

You are all talking about looking after the animals best interests and Article 10 of the endangered species act etc etc, and some of you describe completely giving up your social lives to look after these creatures. After reading about all the effort people are going through just to keep primates in captivity correctly (no social life, every spare penny spent), if I was in your position I would much rather NOT keep Marmosets in captivity, and use the money you'd save (sounds like upwards of £800 a month from what PETER says) to go and work with these animals in the WILD. There you would be witnessing, learning and experiencing much more interesting activities and social behaviours.

And surely if your love for Marmosets is that strong and the passion that deep, you would find far more personal satisfaction (because that is what all animal keepers are after - whether as a PET or whatever you all class keeping a Marmoset as - most of you certainly don't seem to think of them as a pet, even though they live in a cage in your house, which I'm sure would be a good definition of a pet!) in experiencing them in the wild and knowing that you are doing your bit to help the species survive and grow.

Well there's my 2p, I'm absolutely positive I'll get flamed by you all now but hey-ho, and you never know I may have planted a seed of thought for some of you...Just to try and cut down some of the possible flaming I'm going to get, I keep 2 Beardie's a Royal Python and 4 Tarantula's (I am also a member of the BTS and therefore pay money to help out with research projects in the wild for endangered/unknown tarantula species, and hope to do my own researchin the wild one day), my Tarantula's are all CB and none of them are endangered. The beardies are also CB and are now well-known as a domestic pet so please don't tell me to go to Australia to help them in the wild! As for my Royal Python, they are also well-known as a good domestic snake species and don't have an inclination to travel a long way in the wild, therefore making them good pets as you are not restricting their movement by keeping them caged. 

Thanks for reading, 
David


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## PETERAROBERTSON

David giving up social life is our choice...we do socialise,,,with other primate keepers and a few that breed geckos as well...so maybe i should have explained a bit better....id love to work in the wild...could i fund that with working or would you do it for me....and yes our enclosures are large as when we applied to recieve article ten species we were infact visited for inspection...but what i choose to do with my hard earned money should be my choice,,,but thanks for the opinion anyway


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## PETERAROBERTSON

Did anyone see the programme about the states where they remove the baby caps from mum to give to buyers after hand rearing...i remember the response on this very forum...they remove all their teeth so as they can be better pets as well....what a shame,,,god damn americans for yea....wouldnt get away with that over here.....some in my opinion are well on the way to being the same....the only time that hand rearing should be required is if it needed to be done to prevent the animal dieing....even then as most will know..unless its due to an inexperianced mum and dad (maybe due to them being hand reared) the outcome isnt always that good...they seem to know when there is something wrong and just disregard the baby...they know its not healthy....but us,,,we will try anyway...then in my opinion its always worth a go...but to make a better pet.never...you can call me a hipocrate all you like but i know that in this i am not alone....why not put it to a vote and see where this would go..i think you would be surprised...the last person i knew who hand reared to sell was monkey man jack campbell...who is now where he deserves to be...behind bars...i personally would have put him behind bars for his actions toward his primates rather than waiting till he moved to orkney and commited murder...but thats my veiws,,,llok forward to the next generation of responses as some are totaly crazy..i do not under any circumstances expect people to keep animals in the same manner as myself but surely pleasing them is the importance and not potential buyers????


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## bankrobber89

I dont think they should be kept as pets


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## mark t

Peter, why attack durban for giving their views ?? And i think that was a bit ignorant and harsh about you thinking he was telling you what to do with your money ! And DONT dare compare anyone over here to the loonatics on that programme "MY MONKEY BABY" ! STOP TRYING TO SCORE POINTS AND JUSTIFYING THE KEEPING OF LARGE NUMBERS OF PRIMATES IN CAPTIVITY !........ How many people on this forum have you sold primates to....HONESTLY ??...... I CAN THINK OF A FEW !....... YOU REALY NEED TO WIND YOUR NECK IN A BIT PETER ....... YOUR A HIPPOCRIT.....£800 A MONTH TO FEED AND HEAT ONLY ???......YOU MUST HAVE A REALY GOOD JOB, OR YOUR PRIMATE KEEPING/BREEDING HELPS FUND IT( NOT THAT ITS ANY OF MY BUSINESS OF COURSE.....BETTER SAY IT BEFORE PETER DOES)......THATS WHY YOU WERE SO DEFENSIVE ABOUT COSTING WHEN DURBAN ASKED YOU.....ENOUGH SAID ! 

SORRY BUT YOUR SO FAR UP YOUR OWN A_S ITS BRINGING TEARS TO MY EYES ! IV HAD ENOUGH OF YOUR PREACHING AND BULLYING OF PEOPLE WITH VALID OPINIONS....IF YOU CANT TAKE CRITICISM WITHOUT BEING IGNORANT...DONT RESPOND ! IV HAD MY FILL OF ALL YOR SELF ABSORBED SELF RIGHTOUS S_ _T ! 

YOU KEEP PRIMATES IN CAGES TOO ! YOU WILL DO WELL NOT TO FORGET THAT FACT ! (SORRY TO OTHER MEMBERS FOR HAVING TO WATCH AND READ THIS, BUT IT NEEDED SAYING GUYS)

MARK


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## cardinalgrom

mark t said:


> Peter, why attack durban for giving their views ?? And i think that was a bit ignorant and harsh about you thinking he was telling you what to do with your money ! And DONT dare compare anyone over here to the loonatics on that programme "MY MONKEY BABY" ! STOP TRYING TO SCORE POINTS AND JUSTIFYING THE KEEPING OF LARGE NUMBERS OF PRIMATES IN CAPTIVITY !........ How many people on this forum have you sold primates to....HONESTLY ??...... I CAN THINK OF A FEW !....... YOU REALY NEED TO WIND YOUR NECK IN A BIT PETER ....... YOUR A HIPPOCRIT.....£800 A MONTH TO FEED AND HEAT ONLY ???......YOU MUST HAVE A REALY GOOD JOB, OR YOUR PRIMATE KEEPING/BREEDING HELPS FUND IT( NOT THAT ITS ANY OF MY BUSINESS OF COURSE.....BETTER SAY IT BEFORE PETER DOES)......THATS WHY YOU WERE SO DEFENSIVE ABOUT COSTING WHEN DURBAN ASKED YOU.....ENOUGH SAID !
> 
> SORRY BUT YOUR SO FAR UP YOUR OWN A_S ITS BRINGING TEARS TO MY EYES ! IV HAD ENOUGH OF YOUR PREACHING AND BULLYING OF PEOPLE WITH VALID OPINIONS....IF YOU CANT TAKE CRITICISM WITHOUT BEING IGNORANT...DONT RESPOND ! IV HAD MY FILL OF ALL YOR SELF ABSORBED SELF RIGHTOUS S_ _T !
> 
> YOU KEEP PRIMATES IN CAGES TOO ! YOU WILL DO WELL NOT TO FORGET THAT FACT ! (SORRY TO OTHER MEMBERS FOR HAVING TO WATCH AND READ THIS, BUT IT NEEDED SAYING GUYS)
> 
> MARK


i agree totally


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## bankrobber89

mark t said:


> Peter, why attack durban for giving their views ?? And i think that was a bit ignorant and harsh about you thinking he was telling you what to do with your money ! And DONT dare compare anyone over here to the loonatics on that programme "MY MONKEY BABY" ! STOP TRYING TO SCORE POINTS AND JUSTIFYING THE KEEPING OF LARGE NUMBERS OF PRIMATES IN CAPTIVITY !........ How many people on this forum have you sold primates to....HONESTLY ??...... I CAN THINK OF A FEW !....... YOU REALY NEED TO WIND YOUR NECK IN A BIT PETER ....... YOUR A HIPPOCRIT.....£800 A MONTH TO FEED AND HEAT ONLY ???......YOU MUST HAVE A REALY GOOD JOB, OR YOUR PRIMATE KEEPING/BREEDING HELPS FUND IT( NOT THAT ITS ANY OF MY BUSINESS OF COURSE.....BETTER SAY IT BEFORE PETER DOES)......THATS WHY YOU WERE SO DEFENSIVE ABOUT COSTING WHEN DURBAN ASKED YOU.....ENOUGH SAID !
> 
> SORRY BUT YOUR SO FAR UP YOUR OWN A_S ITS BRINGING TEARS TO MY EYES ! IV HAD ENOUGH OF YOUR PREACHING AND BULLYING OF PEOPLE WITH VALID OPINIONS....IF YOU CANT TAKE CRITICISM WITHOUT BEING IGNORANT...DONT RESPOND ! IV HAD MY FILL OF ALL YOR SELF ABSORBED SELF RIGHTOUS S_ _T !
> 
> YOU KEEP PRIMATES IN CAGES TOO ! YOU WILL DO WELL NOT TO FORGET THAT FACT ! (SORRY TO OTHER MEMBERS FOR HAVING TO WATCH AND READ THIS, BUT IT NEEDED SAYING GUYS)
> 
> MARK


Good for you buddy


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## Zoo-Man

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Did anyone see the programme about the states where they remove the baby caps from mum to give to buyers after hand rearing...i remember the response on this very forum...they remove all their teeth so as they can be better pets as well....what a shame,,,god damn americans for yea....wouldnt get away with that over here.....some in my opinion are well on the way to being the same....the only time that hand rearing should be required is if it needed to be done to prevent the animal dieing....even then as most will know..unless its due to an inexperianced mum and dad (maybe due to them being hand reared) the outcome isnt always that good...they seem to know when there is something wrong and just disregard the baby...they know its not healthy....but us,,,we will try anyway...then in my opinion its always worth a go...but to make a better pet.never...you can call me a hipocrate all you like but i know that in this i am not alone....why not put it to a vote and see where this would go..i think you would be surprised...the last person i knew who hand reared to sell was monkey man jack campbell...who is now where he deserves to be...behind bars...i personally would have put him behind bars for his actions toward his primates rather than waiting till he moved to orkney and commited murder...but thats my veiws,,,llok forward to the next generation of responses as some are totaly crazy..i do not under any circumstances expect people to keep animals in the same manner as myself but surely pleasing them is the importance and not potential buyers????


Im with you on this Peter! :notworthy:


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## Zoo-Man

mark t said:


> Peter, why attack durban for giving their views ?? And i think that was a bit ignorant and harsh about you thinking he was telling you what to do with your money ! And DONT dare compare anyone over here to the loonatics on that programme "MY MONKEY BABY" ! STOP TRYING TO SCORE POINTS AND JUSTIFYING THE KEEPING OF LARGE NUMBERS OF PRIMATES IN CAPTIVITY !........ How many people on this forum have you sold primates to....HONESTLY ??...... I CAN THINK OF A FEW !....... YOU REALY NEED TO WIND YOUR NECK IN A BIT PETER ....... YOUR A HIPPOCRIT.....£800 A MONTH TO FEED AND HEAT ONLY ???......YOU MUST HAVE A REALY GOOD JOB, OR YOUR PRIMATE KEEPING/BREEDING HELPS FUND IT( NOT THAT ITS ANY OF MY BUSINESS OF COURSE.....BETTER SAY IT BEFORE PETER DOES)......THATS WHY YOU WERE SO DEFENSIVE ABOUT COSTING WHEN DURBAN ASKED YOU.....ENOUGH SAID !
> 
> SORRY BUT YOUR SO FAR UP YOUR OWN A_S ITS BRINGING TEARS TO MY EYES ! IV HAD ENOUGH OF YOUR PREACHING AND BULLYING OF PEOPLE WITH VALID OPINIONS....IF YOU CANT TAKE CRITICISM WITHOUT BEING IGNORANT...DONT RESPOND ! IV HAD MY FILL OF ALL YOR SELF ABSORBED SELF RIGHTOUS S_ _T !
> 
> YOU KEEP PRIMATES IN CAGES TOO ! YOU WILL DO WELL NOT TO FORGET THAT FACT ! (SORRY TO OTHER MEMBERS FOR HAVING TO WATCH AND READ THIS, BUT IT NEEDED SAYING GUYS)
> 
> MARK


Mark, didnt you 'attack' Peter (a couple of times if I think, without looking back) when he responded to your posts? Pot, kettle....

To my knowledge, Peter has not sold any primates to anyone on this forum, & I've been on here for a long time. He is not in primate keeping for the sale, unlike you. If you were selling parent-reared marmosets that were fully weaned & independant, that wouldnt be so bad. But to remove a perfectly healthy baby from its parents, just so you can make a tame pet out of it & make more money from the paying customer, well that just smacks of a money-minded person!


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## mat_worrell

Mark, after having spent time writing a reply to your appalling post aimed at Peter and my phone crashing I will no be re-writing it!! But what I will say is that it is vey unfair to single out Peter like that and post in the way you have!! In my eyes you deserve an infraction for it!! 

I can vouch for Peter in regards to selling marmosets, he DOES NOT sell marmosets!! And he definately does not keep them to breed and sell on, UNLIKE yourself!! His opinion is his opinion and he has not pushed it on anyone. 

For the way Peter keeps his marmosets and his morals and ethical views around keeping them I respect him!!

How can anyone respect someone like yourself that is only concerned in breeding to sell!! And is willing to rench away young from it's parents for no good reason or for to meet the needs of a customer?!


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## mark t

MATT.....Appalling post ?? srtraight talking i think....and no guidlines have been breached....why should i recieve an infraction??.....because i defend other less experienced members being attacked, by someone or some others with hippocritical views....and for your information Matt, who said i charged more than a parent reared animal....coz i didnt say that i did mate !....oh and the questions were directed at Peter !

mark


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## mat_worrell

You are being argumentative and swearing whether blanked out with token digit or not is still not allowed!! I should know, do you want to to pm you the pm I recieved?!

As you said you are defending people, so am I!! You accused Peter of things I know are not true. 

And actually if you are going to start on me now... get your facts straight!! At no point have I said or accused you of charging more.... or less for anything!! I have not said anything about money amounts!! Thank you very much!!


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## ambyglam

Heres my opinion folks.

When a mother gives birth to a baby there is a special bond there which should NEVER be broken. To take a baby animal from its mother specifically for the reason of 'hand rearing' it just so its 'tamer' or whatever is just wrong, and throwing some acid on your own face to show the world how ugly your soul is on the outside, this might do the trick to allow karma to rest!

This is especially true of primates, they are our closest relations, and how badly do adopted babies sometimes find life as they have been taken from their mothers and not allowed the bond to build up correctly... its just so sad that so many people do this to animals just so they can have a tame one... well here's the answer...

Stop playing god and realise that there's some thing's in life you just can have, so grow the hell up and stop being so selfish!

If an animal is genuinely rejected by its mother then fair enough we need to assist is we can, but certainly not just take what we want just because we want it, the people who do this nowadays would have been the same people who raped 'worthless' women and kept slaves in the past, its just that nowadays these things are not acceptable so they treat other living beings like they are only worth what they can sell them for.

I'm sure if a study was done, the reason most of these people treat animals so badly is because they were under loved and badly treated as kids, which is why they now do the same to smaller defenceless animals, I think some counselling would probably help them and the animals they 'care for'.


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## brittone05

Well, I missed a fair bit lol

I have been on the forum for quite a while and I have also been involved both on and off the forum with a fair few of the primate keepers/exotic mammal enthusiasts and so on and can honestly say that I have never even heard of Peter before this thread ( sorry Peter! )

The primate people whom I do know of have very stringent vetting procedures before they will even tell you if they have any marms ( not single ones unless an experienced keeper has a lone marm for varied reasons ).

I kind of begrudge the whole comments about a$$ licking and stuff though - I am a nearly 30 year old woman, I am knowledgable in various areas ( corsetry, nail enhancements, psychology etc ) and have always tried to have an educated/informed opinion and stay neutral on any subject until I feel I can present myself in a manner that is backed up by a little research.

Regardless of who tells me what, I will ALWAYS beleive that, unless there is a justifiable reason such as rejection etc, then there should be no need to remove young from thier parents for hand rearing. The buyer should be educated as to the risks and the breeder should be able to educte them. 

I don't know Peter but I do applaud him for holding fast to his morals and for placing an ethic in his keeping that is often lost with many breeders once money comes into place.


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## PETERAROBERTSON

Mark i attacked nobody..i answered the question...would you fund it for me was humar mate...yes i do have a good job....used to have a realy good job but was made redundant...used to be easy but now its a bit harder but we keep going as its our chioce..moved a couple of our troops to one of the zoos we know to cut down on costs a bit...on the understanding that they were on loan as exhibits...would have been an easy choice to give up...but we are too set in our ways...one thing i find strange is people that cant hold a debate without getting violant...like you have with me...but i dont bother mate as ive got broad shoulders and will take anything you throw my way....no i have never sold any marmies to anyone on this forum...have been a member for 2yrs and its only over the past couple of months that i mentioned it...due to a discussion with, colin ,neil and mat...quite a heavy debate but at no point did we get abusive with one another....you seem to be set in your ways with regard to what you do...weve made alot of mistakes but i feel through the nurturing and learning that weve had over the years from other keepers that weve improved....but again im so sorry that you as a person that has such an understanding about marmies cant see that removing for no other reason other than sattisfying a customer to make a better pet is wrong.it causes lots of problems that i know you will be aware of...so therfore it has no other gain other than finantial..wish you all the best in your endevours mate....again i apaulagise for my spelling its hard to see the keys as maybe my head is where you said....yip sarcasm mate..in my view this discussion for me has now ended....


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## mark t

Peter, thanks for replying...but wasnt getting violent, just annoyed that you were cutting people down that wished to express their views...who didnt share similar views to yours...maybe there is a nice guy under there somewhere, was just hard to find him through all the preaching and attacks on others.......who knows, someday i might think like you...who knows.....but i dont hand-rear for financial gain....However thanks for your views, and i realy hope you havnt been offended(broad shoulders or not)...coz that was never the intention....take care

mark


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## Jazzy B Bunny

Theres a guy who wonders round town, with a marmoset on his shoulder... poor thing looks so stressed and hates being on a harness! The bloke can barely look after himself.. he smells so bad! Let alone a pet.. I think primates should be left in the wild, unless they are provided with a huge enclosure with company of their own species.


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## mat_worrell

And it is through proper care and attention to whom anyone sells a primate to will stamp out exactly this above!!


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## mark t

Actualy Matt, it looks like the person with a marm on a harness wasnt properly vetted by the breeder....even looks like he has never met the guyser(or the hygene problem and eccentric and irresponsible behaviour would have been picked up on......how do you know it wasnt parent reared ?? as they tame through time according to a few involved in this debate !)...so dont tar us all with the same brush please mate !

mark


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## mat_worrell

Look mark, I stated a fact, I did not aim it at anyone and certainly didn't aim it at you. So like I said in my last previous post if you are gonna start getting ancy with me get your facts straight!!


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## Zoo-Man

mark t said:


> Peter, thanks for replying...but wasnt getting violent, just annoyed that you were cutting people down that wished to express their views...who didnt share similar views to yours...maybe there is a nice guy under there somewhere, was just hard to find him through all the preaching and attacks on others.......who knows, someday i might think like you...who knows.....*but i dont hand-rear for financial gain*....However thanks for your views, and i realy hope you havnt been offended(broad shoulders or not)...coz that was never the intention....take care
> 
> mark


Then why do you remove healthy babies from their parents to hand-rear??? If its because people want a tame 'pet', then these 'customers' should take a look at the bigger picture, should see the parents search for their offspring once removed from them, should see & hear the baby crying for the only thing it knew. And above all else, you should be responsible & refuse to hand-rear for people!


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## irwin

Why do you think it is less stressful for these animals to be taken away at birth,or 6 weeks or 6 months,does it suddenly become ok to take babies because they are older.Surely the bond is stronger,or do parents of older babies not take any notice of screaching offspring being taken.If you breed and keep all offspring,or get implants to stop breeding good on you,you will never have the worry of where they end up.If you breed and sell at any age you should not make comments on threads like this,because at the end of the day you breed,then sell,or maybe you give yours to loving new bird cages


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## miss_ferret

that is a good point but you have to bear in mind that very few animals stay with their parents there whole lives and in some cases once they pass a certain age the parents will attack/drive off the youngsters (remains of wild behaviour where the offspring was a threat to the survival of the parent). the weaning of youngsters is a natural process for all animals (humans included) as it is what gives the youngster its independance.


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## PETERAROBERTSON

Irwin,Miss ferret has hit the nail on the head..They dont seem to bother the same when they are older..They become helpers in the troop and if removed for whatever reason then there is always vocols but not the same as even trying to remove one of triplets from dad..They can often be pushed out the troop for various reasons and then there is not an option,they must be re-housed...But i think seeing a birth first is nessesary as this educates them for there future breading etc.I dont think neautering is the answer and trust me most of us do keep the young and try to get the troop staying together..Quite alot of the times its the males as they seem strong about wanting to bread,,then a good dominant mum is needed to keep them in toll..Usually with a strong hand..lol..The parrot cage that you go on about ,i cannot argue against what you are saying..Then again there are some zoos that we work with that have no outside enclosures and really big inside with uv light and supliments etc..And they are vetted by the proper authorities..But i do agree with what you say


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## Cilfa123

Zoo-Man said:


> There are so many scams about on the free ads sites, that it is easy to be sucked in & ripped off, so beware! As Peter says, reputable breeders will not just chuck you a marmoset & take your cash in a day. When I have babies for sale, I ask prospective buyers lots of questions, I ask to see pictures of what the marmosets will live in, I ask about the family, etc etc.


Hey, i know it’s been years but wondering if you still breed marmosets, if so could u please message me


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