# Kio Carp pond, and cost?



## akuma 天

Hi people

I was wondering if anyone has any experience building Koi Carp ponds, or had one built recently by professionals?

The reason is I am seriously considering getting one built in my back yard to replace my natural pond, but I have no idea about how much is a reasonable price.

I know it will in part depend on my choice of filter, but how much should the basic construction cost?

Thanks


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## Morgan Freeman

I was looking at prices then decided never to build a koi pond :lol2:


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## akuma 天

When push comes to shuv, its just 4 brick walls with a bit of drainage.

I've seen plenty of Youtube vids, and it doesn't look *that* hard if you are a proffesional.


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## chalky76

For a proper koi pond you're talking big buck (several grand at least) they need a large volume of water.


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## akuma 天

The amounts of money people seem to want to charge is a bit of a joke!

Its four walls, a drain and OK filters are always going to be expensive.

But the amount of money people are asking to lay four poxy 3ft high walls is a joke? No wonder the building trade is in trouble!!!!


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## Knarf3

akuma 天;8130143 said:


> The amounts of money people seem to want to charge is a bit of a joke!
> 
> Its four walls, a drain and OK filters are always going to be expensive.
> 
> But the amount of money people are asking to lay four poxy 3ft high walls is a joke? No wonder the building trade is in trouble!!!!


it will be allot cheaper if you did a brick laying course and built it your self. That's what i would do.


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## Mynki

To do it properly you're looking at an absolute minimum of £2500. Go for a depth of 4' minimum. I know a lot of people will tell you there fish are OK in a 3' deep pond but you'll never see their fish develop properly into show winning specimens which should tell you something.

Go for a bottom drain and filter as well as skimmer and UV steraliser. 

You can cut costs if you do most of the labour yourself. Raising the pool a couple of feet (And thus only digging down 2') will save money. Liner is much cheaper than fibreglass.


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## emmz29

being to wickes today 100 concrete blocks £80 lay them flat so will be no need to double wall the pond skim the out side leave in side as pad the inner walls with carpet or underlay then put liner in drain is optional but cant beat a good pump the filter ps im doing the same project and have my 36watt blagdon uv, oase biotec 10.1, and 8 thousand litre pump cost me 400 for every thing then blocks and concrete maybe around £350 so then liner so around a £1000 all together, so £7000 £3000 yes but can build a resonable kio pond for £1000 hope this helps :2thumb:


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## Paul B

Ok so lets do it on a budget.

Digging yourself. 

1 skip full of dirt. The cost of the skip £150.00
12 lengths of 4x4 sawn timber or 8 railway sleepers. £200
Old carpet / underlay / soft topsoil from the garden FREE !!
Reasonable liner £100. often comes with free underlay

Second hand Oase biotec 10 filter £60.00

oase bitron UV second hand £50.00

You can often find them paired second hand for less.

Good 12000 pump £180.00. Lots cheaper if you find a good second hand one. Oase are probably the best to look for.

Total cost -= 0ne bad back and £700.

Skimmers and bottom drains are good but not 100% necessary. i have been keeping Koi for many years without one.

This will make a 10 x 10 x 4ft deep reasonable KOI pond.

If you want the builders to do it. It will take two days to dig (depending how far the skip is from the hole) and a day to build and a day to lay the liner and fill.

the total cost will be about £2000. 

P


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## Mynki

I can tell who's never built a real koi pool....... lol

They're a bit more involved than a goldfish or nature pond if done properly. You'll have really poor results if you don't use a bottom drain (prefferably aerated) and skimmer.


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## Mynki

To the OP, you might want to consider this if you're serious about keeping koi properly :-

400 square feet of earth will require a lot more than one skip. 

Depending on the earth on your land you may realistically need to hire a small mechanical digger. We did! These things are not cheap.

Happy and healthy koi should easily grow to 3; in length. Fish this size place a massive bioload on the filtration system. Off the shelf 'pond filters' like the Oase Biotec were not designed for large fish like mature koi but for much smaller goldfish that do not produce huge bioloads. Realistically youo need a system like this :-

Five Acre Koi Chesterfield, Derbyshire, UK

I'd recommend you call and talk to a proffesional koi pool construction company for advice. They'll explain why bottom drains and skimmers are required in addition to a vortex filter to ensure good water quality. They'll also explain why off the self boxes will not do for adult koi. 

You will be told that a crappy little box filter and tiny pump will be ok by some as they have koi in their 600 litre puddle. These will not be happy and healthy fish pushing 3' in length though. Nor will they ever be without the right setup. 

Also, if you're buying quality japanese fish. Or even high quality fish from Israel, wouldn't you want to protect your investment? Decent small jap fish will set you back £125 + each (more this year after recent events in Japan) and these could appreciate many fold as they grow. So why chance a sub standard filtration system?


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## I love tortioes

hi matey my koi pond cost me £6000 for everything and i built it myself too to save money as quotes i was getting £10,000


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## Paul B

Why oh why are Koi keepers so anal about how much it all costs.

filtration is all about keeping the water clean and clear.
5 big ready made plastic boxes with a variety of filter medium for nearly £700 is fine if you have that amount of money.

3 plastic loft tanks
or 3 wheelie bins
or 3 water butts

Brushes, foam and jap mat and maybe some lava rock

All for about £150.00 and a bit of plumbing.

A pump that will empty your pond in an hour.

Its not what the boxes look like its the quality of the filtration media.

Bottom drains / sumps are all about keeping the jobs you have to do simple.

Commercial Koi ponds in japan are basically muddy ponds. they dont have skimmers and bottom drains just good... quality water.

Adequate circulation / oxygenation and a sensibly populated pond does not have to cost many thousands of pounds.

a 10x10x4 pond built 2 feet from ground level will need one large skip for the 200 cubic feet of soil or less if you create shallower areas in the pond. . 

thats a 6 x 6 x 10 skip = 360 cubic feet. This allows for the air that will now be in the soil. 

I have nice quality ASAGI Koi from Israel in the shop for £9.99 that are between 5 and 7" which grow into stunning looking fish.

So basically its all about budget and not being turned over by those individuals that will rape every penny out of you if you have it to spend.


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## Mynki

Sorry but advice from a pet shop vs proffesional koi company (I have no commercial interests in this) will vary massively.

I can immediately tell that you've never built a koi pool designed to house them properly for life. That 'bit of plumbing' comment insinuates little cost. But realistically you need to dig out trenches install bottom drains and plumbing and then concrete it all in place. 

Filter media is very important. As is maintenance, but cheap crappy solutions as you suggest won't do long term (think about a lifelong solution).

As for israeli fish for under a tenner. They look nice to some, but compare their shape and colours to those produced by a recognised and respected japanese breeder and they'll look hideous in 99.9% of aall cases. Especially when they grow into large adult fish. 

You say koi keepers are anal about their hobby. Thats becaasue they know what is needed long term whereas pet shop owners selling cut price low grade fish will almost certainly not done it themselves or understand the long term requirements of these large fish. 

As for the comment "filtration is all about keeping the water clean and clear." It's all about keeping the water quality correct. Low nitrate and in very cold winters it's also worth heating the pool. This is very costly but will result in fewer losses and healthier fish come spring time. 

To the OP I really would speak to a genuine and experrinced koi dealer. Avoid pet shops and general aquatic stores as they'll go for a cceap sale targetting those who can't afford to do it correctly etc. 

No bottom drain = dirty pool bottom. A breeding ground for unwanted bacteria. You really do want one!

P.S I've seen a fair few skips. But no perfectly rectangular ones! Again check with those who've done it! They'll tell you all about the costs that have not been considered by those above such as blockwork, brickwork, paving slabs (Be realistic you want it to look nice) and of course getting electrics installed to the part of the garden you want it in. This needs to be done by a qualified sparky. If you don't use a UV steraliser you'll end up with green water. If you don't use a skimmer, you'll end up with an unclear surface. Make sure you have plumbing in place to return the water through the side of the pool about a third of the way down. The current this creates is good for the fish to swim against.


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## Paul B

Ok I give up. I have been keeping and breeding Koi in a variety of ponds for over 30 years so obviously know absolutely nothing.

One thing i do agree with is that heating a 12000 gallon pond during the winter is an expensive thing to do.

Good luck with your project.


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## johne.ev

I agree with you Paul regards the cost. You dont have to spend a fortune to have a nice, efficient working koi pond. But you do NEED a bottom drain imo. I have two ponds, one pump fed (koi removed) & a PROPER koi pond with a bottom drain. The difference a bottom drain makes has to be experienced to see just how effective it makes your whole set up (no matter what type of filtration you install) compared to pump fed set ups. Even if i was building a pond for any other type of fish i would still fit a bottom drain into the build.


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## emmz29

well if you are very wealthy go all out and go crazy i would with the most beutifull pond money can buy but if ya a average person like most people on a average wage and want a kio pond go for it as long as ya keep water checks and have a reasonable sized filter pump ect whats the damage also these are nice little bit of kit Aquosis Portable Bottom Drain / Suction Dome | Pond & Koi Supplies just makes life easier,i do say big is better but can icheve a nice relaxen pond for average day worken people like me self.


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## Morgan Freeman

Get some goldfish and just blag them as baby koi. Job done.


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## The Chillinator

Why the hell do people recommend a depth of 4ft? The UK is hardly the tropics, and with the last two winters we've had I'd suggest a pond no shallower than 5ft, with 6ft being preferable. Deeper ponds are less prone to freezing over and for Koi, such a depth is necessary if the fish are to overwinter successfully.


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## johne.ev

emmz29 said:


> well if you are very wealthy go all out and go crazy i would with the most beutifull pond money can buy but if ya a average person like most people on a average wage and want a kio pond go for it as long as ya keep water checks and have a reasonable sized filter pump ect whats the damage also these are nice little bit of kit Aquosis Portable Bottom Drain / Suction Dome | Pond & Koi Supplies just makes life easier,i do say big is better but can icheve a nice relaxen pond for average day worken people like me self.


These are probably not much more effective than just using the pump by itself. Fact is you can't beat a properly installed bottom drain. Doesn't have to be the expensive air ones (mine is standard 4", cost about £24.00) as long as its set up into the build correctly it will work brilliantly.

P.s i'm also an "average working day person" Lol!


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## chewy86

Could someone list exactly whats needed for a 10x10x6 koi pond please. I mean bottom drains, filters, pumps, vortex, the lot. With recomended models and places to buy them from including good quality japanese koi?
There is too many differant opinions when you ask people and also too many brands, you lot seem to know your stuff so would rather ask in here.

Thanks in advance.


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## johne.ev

Tbh mate that is a really difficult question to answer without knowing what type/size pond you are going to build.
I can highly recommend a good reliable dealer who will deliver at very reasonable cost Have a word with Dave at Coastal Koi in Kings Lynn, Norfolk. Thats what i did when i built my koi pond.

Sorry meant to add. I'n you post you say "good quality Japanese koi", these dont come cheap. So if your serious about keeping koi (not only good quality Jap ones) do the job properly. If not you will regret (& waste money) it, just like i did when i built my first one.


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## chewy86

I was going to go for a square large block build with slanted bottom to send muck to bottom drain more efficiantly. The rest im totally oblivous too, ie the best filter, pump, food, etc etc.

Thanks for the name I will speak to that fella for advice but him being a good 4-5hours away from me, might not be the most cost effective person to use for anything else.

Gav.


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## Mynki

The problem with threads like this is the huge difference in peoples own experience. Remember a pond costing £400 may be expensive to some, while £4000 will seem ridiculously cheap to serious koi keepers.

I'd add the following points :-

Do your research. A lot of people build a small pond and then realise it's too small and replace it with a second. Long term this is very costly. Aim for the finished product that you are happy with.

A depth of 4' is the minimum you should consider. Deeper is better for the fish. However the depth is for the development of the fish more so than the pool freezing. They need this depth to swim upwards and use their muscles. Fish kept in shallow water (and aquariums) will never develop into normal healthy fish. In bad winters, heating the water will prevent fish losses. Returning the water into the pool one third down will also prevent issues.

Off the shelf small filters are designed for goldfish ponds. Not a pool containing multiple 3' long fish. Get a proper vortex filter designed for the long term care of koi.

There is a very cheap book called 'A practical guide to building and maintaining a koi pond' published by Pondmaster. It costs around £7. Buy a copy as it explains all modern day pond designs and will help you choose the ideal setup for your garden.

Don't bother with plants. They're nothing but food to these fish.

Anything without a bottom drain will be a long term maintenance nightmare. Spend a few more quid on an aerated bottom drain. The difference these make to oxygen levels during warm spring, summer and even autumn should never be underestimated.

You should aim to grow your fish on to around 3' in length. Anything smaller and you're not caring for them properly by not giving them the required space etc.


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## chewy86

Thanks that info mate, whats your take on japanese vs israili koi?


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## johne.ev

Lol! Now this thread should get really interesting. :bash: :2thumb:


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## Paul B

Ok i WILL put the cat among the pigeons.

IN MY OPINION.

there are a number of Israeli farms that have stocked pure bred Japanese KOi. These fish look and behave in the same way as the Japanese but will not come with papers to say they are Japanese. They are as a result considerably cheaper.

For the purist with the £££ to spend and who may want to show the fish or just tell people how much they cost the Japanese are the most sought after and by far the most expensive.

95% of the population couldnt tell a Japanese Koi from a goldfish so I personally dont see the issue but I am not a purist.

Japanese farms tend to lose many of the B grade fish to keep a strong strain whereby you can buy B grade Israeli Koi quite commonly. 

The vast majority of Koi pond keepers buy fish they like the look of and can afford hopefully from reputable stockists who source their fish from well quarantined exporters / wholesalers. 

before you buy do lots of research into the serious viruses that are prevalent in the trade and once you have found a good stockist i suggest you stay with them.

KHV is the current top offender. Maybe originated in Israel.

see How does the KHV Koi Virus Disease affect my Fishpond and Koi Health? 

Here is a selection of my fish that are between 8 and 12 years old. Nothing special just what i think are nice looking fish. Sizes between 18" and 26".
All purchased at less than 8 inches long.









These fish will eat from your hand as a result of spending hours by the pond allowing the fish to gain confidence.

I dont heat my pond so during the winter months the fish feed very sparingly hence they have not attained the sort of size they could in a heated pond where they would be eating machines the whole year round.

LET THE DEBATE BEAR FRUIT !!! lol


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## chewy86

Interesting thanks for your input. My main concern is the visual side of things, ie I want my tancho to have a round, centred head marking not square and off centre. Would be good to hear other views also plus what shape and visuals to look out for in AA koi.


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## johne.ev

Firstly i just want to say i totally agree with Paul regards the majority of koi keepers/enthusiasts, not being able to tell the difference from which country a koi originates. I have Jap, Israeli & English fish in my pond. Personally if i trust the dealer selling it & like it, i'll buy it.
Also regards where KHV originated, if it was Israel, where as far as i'm aware, the first case was reported & i say REPORTED because where would the original Israeli fish used to breed, have come from in the first place? Japan maybe?)
Regards the visual side of things like like the head markings on a koi for instance. Patterns/shape colour & body shape can & most probably will change considerably as the koi grows. The younger a fish the more its likely to change from what you originally liked about it in the first place. Hence why you get so many people moving on fish. I was once looking for a particular variety of koi called an Ochiba Shigure, i was looking for the Doits version & at the time quite hard to find. I had one imported from Japan by a trusted & well known dealer, obviously in with his own shipment. The koi was 25cm when i bought it, now its around 16/18" it has lost all the brown markings & is now light, smoke grey colour. Still a nice koi & healthy & as tame as you like & maybe even more unusual, but just an example of what can happen to a fish. Personally i treat my koi as pets & if they change then so be it, as long as they are healthy i'm happy. Nothing wrong with going down the quality/show koi route if you wish, just be prepared to pay & also possibly be disappointed.


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## Mynki

LMAO! I wish we had more koi keepers on here....

I need to add though that heating your pool over winter is purely for the benefit of the fish. It would not be heated to a temperature where they would feed though. 

KHV - I do own an aquatics company and have a lot of trade experience and so know all about the trade and KHV. About three weeks ago a well known aquatics company in Nottinghamshire had all of it's koi destroyed by DEFRA due to an outbreak a KHV outbreak. This is a very real threat to the koi keeper. Chinese fish are renowned for being a KHV threat. 

Japan and Israel both produce some very poor quality fish. Fact! I remember a decade or so ago reading about an ogon winning an open koi show. Many were shocked to hear that it was produced in Israel. So it's true they can produce some good fish. But the japanese still continue to dominate the high quality fish market and will do for many years if not indefinately.

If you just want cheap, colourful pets there is no reason why you shouldnt go for the cheapest of cheap fish. There is huge 'snobbery' in the koi industry with many not wanting fish from aywhere other than Japan. 

The fish pictured above look like regular cheap koi found in UK garden centers and pet shops etc. I very recently visited a suplier that had just taken delivery of fish from Magnoy (Israel). The fish looked healthy, but out of the 500 or so I saw, I wouldn't have wanted any of them as their patterns were a disapointment. Thats not being snobby, it's just a fact that some people want good colouration, striking patterns and the potential for the fish to improve with age. As has been stated it is possible for it to develop in a way you wouldn't want. With experience you can tend to pick fish better though. 

Chewy - What I'd say to you is, rather than reading peoples opinions online, run some searches online for japanese koi for sale. You'll find many reputable dealers who have pictures of individual fish for sale. Many do regular trips to the main koi farms in Japan and will state which breeder produced the fish. Take a look at the quality and the prices of the fish. They are very costly, but the quality will soon become apparent very, very quickly when compared to Israeli fish costing a tiny fraction by comparison. 

Have a look here :-

Koi For Sale

Thats just one example. The costs are higher than your average fish keeper will be prepared to pay. However it is possible to buy younger fish and grow them on. It is possible to have some of these cheaper fish at around the £125 mark grow on into high quality show fish. Pay attention to the breeders name but remember your care will determine the growth rates and development of the fish.

You could also look at small fish like some of these on page one...

http://www.japanese-koi.co.uk/koiForSale.php

There are always a few bargains to be had amongst shipment that have just arrived. Get in early to pick the best fish!

Richdon are always worth a look. I like fish by Dainichi which they stock.

http://www.richdon-koi.com/koi/


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## chewy86

top advice people thanks, for me its just pattern and colour. I was reading last night about a guy in south africa who is well known and breeds show worthy fish, Imported originaly from japan. He even manufactures his own range of food called shogun. I think his names chris neaves? apparently a koi god with decades of koi keeping and research.


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## i.am.idc

Would love to build a koi pond what sort of size is good and what equipment will I need? How much am I looking at total cost? I have some experience, I also believe bottom drain and surface skimmer make the whole ordeal easier. I am looking at a Nexus filter by EvolutionAqua I think they are called, are these any good? Not trying to get into this in a big way just want a fancy pond in my garden. I also want it done properly :2thumb:


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## Mynki

chewy86 said:


> top advice people thanks, for me its just pattern and colour. I was reading last night about a guy in south africa who is well known and breeds show worthy fish, Imported originaly from japan. He even manufactures his own range of food called shogun. I think his names chris neaves? apparently a koi god with decades of koi keeping and research.


It's all about pattern, colour and bodyshape to me too.

If you start off with top quality brood stock you will be able to produce high quality fish potentially. You just need to give them space, depth, water quality and a good diet. They can grow very big, very quickly if cared for properly.....


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## emmz29

i must say bottom drains are cheap as chips, i am curous on the price of a pump to power the drain if thats how it works as i am builden a raised concrete block one let me know as the drain will be connected to a 4in pipe cheers emma


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## johne.ev

Pump cost depends on type/make/model & size of pump. This then depends on size/volume of pond & type of filtration system employed. See they all go together, so you need to work out what is going to work best on your pond & what you can afford.


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## Mynki

*Reality check*

I thought I'd mention this here as a bit of a reality check for some of the previous posts in this thread. An aquantance of mine is wanting a 10' x 8' x 4' koi pool building. It would be 2' deep and 2' raised with a 2' high wall built around it.

The person won't do any digging and the earth removed will be moved to level off some of his garden and thus no skips are required.

To have it dug out and trenches for a bottom drain installed, blockwork and brickwork along with paving slabs that can be sat on around the top, he's been quoted £900 to have this done by a handy man who's rates are very reasonable. That doesn't include any fibreglass rendering, bottom drains, pipework, filters, pumps or skimmers.........


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