# Herumphffffff... can someone recommend an RO system please?



## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Well time to give up on all my other ideas on how to solve this nitrate problem (80ppm out the tap and 2 progressively sick orandas) and i'm going to have to go down the RO route.

Water lettuce lasted 2 seconds, and the salvania natans did ok but has no started to snuff it. Moss balls are getting on fine but been told they wont help much anyway lol.

Just bought some duckweed and amazon frogbit anyway... 

Filter medias were ok but don't do enough, and one had to be ditched as it just clogged the Fluval U2 all the time. (the other is a jewel de-nitrate sponge crammed into the main internal eheim filter on top of the existing sponge)


Can someone recommend a decent RO system that will give me some nice nitrate free water and wont cost the earth in the dreaded January money vaccuum! I don't want to just buy one that is cheap and turns out poo but then i don't even know a sausage about them really to know what a suitable budget would be!

Guess its a case of recommend something good and i'll try and find it as cheap as i can!

Also... i need something that will not be plumbed in permanently, ie will just clip onto the tap or something easily removed and re-attached. i do a 30-50% water change in a 160L 4ft tank so needs to make the water for that without taking all night as well.

INJAF has recommended the pozzani filters already but it requires too much plumbing (unless there's a bigger one way out of my price range), and doesn't seem to put out much meaning water changes would take days instead of the usual hour or so!

i really just don't know what i'm looking for at all  i just want a simple life and healthy goldies, i hate seeing them so still and sad.... Pedro seems to be taking the upside down position as his default and Precious has started to slow up, although she is still the right way up. they were starting to get better but because i couldn't use the anti nitrate media in the Fluval U2 any longer without it clogging every 5 mins, it's out of control again.


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## spidersteve (Jan 25, 2010)

miss_mystra said:


> Well time to give up on all my other ideas on how to solve this nitrate problem (80ppm out the tap and 2 progressively sick orandas) and i'm going to have to go down the RO route.
> 
> Water lettuce lasted 2 seconds, and the salvania natans did ok but has no started to snuff it. Moss balls are getting on fine but been told they wont help much anyway lol.
> 
> ...


D&D systems do them as do TMC. As for the cost they are fairly similar in price and its the cost of changing the membranes etc that will get you in the long run. Do you have a LFS that sells RO?


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

im having exactly the same issues still, the purigen and matrix are now doing nothing. ive been testing both the tap water and the tank water, its infuriating. its 40ppm straight out of the tap, and 60ppm-80ppm out of the tank. i think im going to also have to look into RO, at the moment im changing out around 300L a week, but obviously it wont need to be so much once the nitrates are under control but il still have to be buying a couple of hundred liters every week. its going to cost a fortune, i got hold of pozzani, and they told me the cartridges wouldnt last a month with the amount of water id be needing, so for me its a lot of money to spend out in the first place, followed up by a lot of money for spare cartridges every few weeks. the things we do for our precious goldfish hey, maybe we should go down the chuck em in a bowl and let them fester route :gasp::bash: if only the bloody tap water was nitrate free, id be looking at maybe 10ppm nitrate before water change day, so i could even go a fortnight with no issues!


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

spidersteve said:


> D&D systems do them as do TMC. As for the cost they are fairly similar in price and its the cost of changing the membranes etc that will get you in the long run. Do you have a LFS that sells RO?



do you mean RO systems or just the RO water? My LFS do sell them and the water but i've no means of getting 50L of water home as i have no car and a taxi in London's a rip off lol... plus would be every week! As for the systems... well honestly online is cheaper so i'd rather buy online... i don't really go to my LFS that often anyway, if i'm desperate for a fish related thing i can go to my local reptile shop, but their stock for fish is limited for more specialist things such as RO and they don't stock RO water.

i'm going to start charging my fish rent when they get better LOL GET A JOB FISHIES!! :whip:


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> im having exactly the same issues still, the purigen and matrix are now doing nothing. ive been testing both the tap water and the tank water, its infuriating. its 40ppm straight out of the tap, and 60ppm-80ppm out of the tank. i think im going to also have to look into RO, at the moment im changing out around 300L a week, but obviously it wont need to be so much once the nitrates are under control but il still have to be buying a couple of hundred liters every week. its going to cost a fortune, i got hold of pozzani, and they told me the cartridges wouldnt last a month with the amount of water id be needing, so for me its a lot of money to spend out in the first place, followed up by a lot of money for spare cartridges every few weeks. the things we do for our precious goldfish hey, maybe we should go down the chuck em in a bowl and let them fester route :gasp::bash: if only the bloody tap water was nitrate free, id be looking at maybe 10ppm nitrate before water change day, so i could even go a fortnight with no issues!



exactly, it's a losing battle because the nitrates in the bleeding water already  so no matter how on top you stay on water changes it's never enough. i looked into the pozzani - not practical at all for such amounts of water beyond just filling up the kettle and drinking water.

i hate the RO system idea deep down, another expense is one thing, but the waste! 3 gallons waste water for every 1 you get from it seems about average, i wish i had lots of plants or a garden to chuck it in but nope, i don't think the couple house plants i have need 100's of litres of water :lol2: and the whole process sounds so bloody tedious. i don't mind doing normal water changes, it keeps me fit! i zone out carrying buckets in a nice sort of way about but for some reason i find the filling up of the bucket maddening :bash: so will drive me further mad waiting ages for the water to go through RO etc etc. But there's no choice  and i refuse to watch my fish suffer as i love the little sods to bits! Wish i hadn't sold the car now, i didn't need it before but now i think i do, aaarrghh!! Would be much easier to just run up to the LFS and buy some water!


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

im stuck for any other ideas now, the bloody water company needs to sort the water supply out. the ro system plumbed into my house is a no no, we do own it so that isnt an issue but we are on a water meter so we would be paying out so much it isnt a possiblity for us. the only other option i can think of is sumping the tank, and having a ton of live plants in the sump system with it all well lit under there. i dread to think how much that would cost to set-up though, plus the figuring out of the sump size, and overflow box, and then the return pump, makes me wana cry!


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> im stuck for any other ideas now, the bloody water company needs to sort the water supply out. the ro system plumbed into my house is a no no, we do own it so that isnt an issue but we are on a water meter so we would be paying out so much it isnt a possiblity for us. the only other option i can think of is sumping the tank, and having a ton of live plants in the sump system with it all well lit under there. i dread to think how much that would cost to set-up though, plus the figuring out of the sump size, and overflow box, and then the return pump, makes me wana cry!



oh my goodness, no that's a terrible idea if you are on a metre. Our water is included in the rent in this flat, although we are moving and that may not be the case in the next place, which will still be in London and may still have a nitrate issue 

Water companies are a bunch of robbing :censor:s... have you spoken to yours and what did they say out of interest? i think i told you the wonderful reaction i got before!

Just invested in some seachem nitrate media - it looks chunky enough to sit in the centre part of the U2, the bit that originally had biomax media in. the Fluval anti nitrate media was too fine and had to be kept in a sock thing and it just doesn't work in an internal. Hopefully this will ease things a little like the fluval media did but without clogging the filter this time.... fingers crossed!

My last option would be to send the fishies up to live at my mums in Stoke, her boyfriend used to love keeping discus but his ex sold them when he left her (dramas eh?!) so he's a very experienced fish keeper and knows his stuff generally, would just need to educate him on goldfish specifics, the nitrate's fine up there as (geek as i am) tested it at Christmas out of curiosity when i went there for a visit! I'd miss them so much though  when i moved down here Pedro was living in his most unsuitable way before i knew the facts... well... a small tank is a lot easier to move a couple hundred miles LOL will be fun trying get this lot up there now!

the frustrating thing is a year ago the nitrates here were fine, how can the water company ignore such a jump, there was barely a trace back then, only in the last 6 months has it become a problem.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

ive found that it depends on the time of year, as diuring summers here the nitrate drops a lot. i use the seachem matrix media in our fx5, wanted the nitrate reducing stuff but it needs such a slow flow i had nowhere i could put it. the matrix appears to have no effect on the nitrate levels worth talking about, saying that, 2 weeks ago when it hadnt been in long, the nitrates were up at around 160ppm :gasp: omg right!!! and now they are at between 80ppm-100ppm at the worst. it may be doing something. im also running seachem purigen in my internal filters. it could be either of them or both which are reducing it by that little bit, but i dont know. so fed up with it. i couldnt pack my goldies off,id miss them too much. :lol2:


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> ive found that it depends on the time of year, as diuring summers here the nitrate drops a lot. i use the seachem matrix media in our fx5, wanted the nitrate reducing stuff but it needs such a slow flow i had nowhere i could put it. the matrix appears to have no effect on the nitrate levels worth talking about, saying that, 2 weeks ago when it hadnt been in long, the nitrates were up at around 160ppm :gasp: omg right!!! and now they are at between 80ppm-100ppm at the worst. it may be doing something. im also running seachem purigen in my internal filters. it could be either of them or both which are reducing it by that little bit, but i dont know. so fed up with it. i couldnt pack my goldies off,id miss them too much. :lol2:


i would miss them too, but i don't want to keep being sick  feels like there is only so much i can do now.. at least if they go to my mums i will see them. My Mum loves Pedro to bits (she's never been into fish ever, we had a tropical tank when i was a toddler which was my Dad's thing, she hated it LOL) and has yet to meet Precious, but thinks she's ace from the pics... so i know they'll be enjoyed and well cared for, and free from nasty nitrates and the sickness it's causing. I'm worried Pedro has forgotten what its like to be the right way up


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## Moogloo (Mar 15, 2010)

JBL Osmosis 120 RO System | Reverse Osmosis Filter | 123 Aquatics

The JBL RO Unit 120 is an excellant compromise, its nothing like the big ass RO units that D-D make (though have used one of these and was terrifying to plumb in!!).

The JBL one is easy, it has three pipes, waste pipe down one end, inlet for tap water and outlet for RO, they attatch to the taps, you leave them on for a day or however long needed and then you pack it up until the next time.

The replacement medias are about 1/3 of the price of some of the bigger RO units as well.

All you would need to work out is where the water goes as you dont want floods!


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Moogloo said:


> JBL Osmosis 120 RO System | Reverse Osmosis Filter | 123 Aquatics
> 
> The JBL RO Unit 120 is an excellant compromise, its nothing like the big ass RO units that D-D make (though have used one of these and was terrifying to plumb in!!).
> 
> ...


sounds like a bath job LOL thanks that's the 2nd time somones recommended that, sounds nice and simple! i've got a massive tub that i used for Precious' quarantine, about 60L or so which will be ideal for the RO water to go into.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Look into HMA filters.

Also, some companies deliver RO water. Pricey though.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

ive been told that HMA filters do not remove nitrates, have read it online somewhere too, it removes chlorine and chloramine etc but not nitrates or phosphates. HMA was something i had looked into for my tank. think im going to now add some water lilys, done it before and they were growing new leaves every 24-48 hours, so must have been soaking up some of the nitrates. i tied them to small pieces of bog wood to hold them down and the fish didnt eat them. cant remember why exactly i took them out last time, but they look great too :2thumb: nice cheap option to try aswell!


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Ok, how about several large HOB filters with peace lilly filtration?


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

I think you need to look elsewhere as to why your Orandas are not right i can guarantee it will have bugger all to do with nitrates .

First thing to do is check hardness and pH goldfish of all kinds hate soft acidic water with a passion. 

Dh 10 minimum pH 7.2 upwards 0 NITRITES and you will have happy goldfish forget nitrates they are a red herring i have had readings of 500ppm in marine tanks with no ill effects whatsoever.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

goldfish do suffer in high nitrates, as can all fish. her fish are well cared for and her water is fine in all other ways, shes just battling high nitrates. im suffering with the same issues, though my fish arent suffering from the same issues as much. i get occassional bottom sitting, and a slow down in growth, but my nitrates arent as high as hers. my p.h is 8, and i wasnt sure if this was too high, but i guess not


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

*Another idea possibly silly*

Can you not prepare your water for a few days before hand in tubs filled with plants to filter out nitrates?

My planted tanks rarely reach above 5ppm even if i miss water changes.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Graylord said:


> I think you need to look elsewhere as to why your Orandas are not right i can guarantee it will have bugger all to do with nitrates .
> 
> First thing to do is check hardness and pH goldfish of all kinds hate soft acidic water with a passion.
> 
> Dh 10 minimum pH 7.2 upwards 0 NITRITES and you will have happy goldfish forget nitrates they are a red herring i have had readings of 500ppm in marine tanks with no ill effects whatsoever.


honestly, from the research i've done, and the readings of everything else being fine it's to do with the nitrates. i thought it was a simple swim bladder issue but all methods of fixing that (and yep he's had it before and peas always fix it fairly quick) and yet nothing works, When he's had the normal swim bladder probs hes still been as active with just the occasional lack of balance control... now he just lives upside down and is very quiet. he perks up occasionally and at feeding time, but he's a shadow of what he was. Precious is going the same but not upside-down, but she has quietened a lot and is almost bottom sitting. The symptoms match what other people online have had when a fish is exposed to high nitrates for a long time. It seems to start as if a swim bladder problem that wont fix. Something to do with pressure, if i recall. Basically the fish have the fish version of the bends in the most severe cases, where nitrate (or something from nitrates) prevents the blood getting the oxygen properly... sorry i'm paraphrasing what i read a few months ago, so i may have the science wrong but the fish bottom sit to gain pressure which helps them, those helping to cure their fish put them in very tall narrow tubs for extra relief on occasion, say for an hour a day i think, and that coupled with fixing the nitrates in the tank sorted it... it took them a while and some off times, but it worked.

GoldFish Emergency 911 - Nitrate; the gentle giant

there was a discussion elsewhere on a random fish forum detailing all the progress etc but i can't find it.

the fish get the right diet, and i've cut so far back on their food i don't think they like me very much anymore! they had to go 2 weeks without when i thought it was the normal swim bladder problems and still he was upside down. food is just about the only thing they do perk up for. they sit about like they must have the worlds biggest headaches


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

You can get a big hosepipe and run it from my house.


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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

If you do want an RO unit I can't recommend this place enough: Reverse Osmosis Systems and Water Filters, Pure Water made in the UK

They really go out of their way to help you, even if you haven't bought from them and are just asking for advice.


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

3 STAGE AQUARIUM RO REVERSE OSMOSIS SYSTEM UNIT MARINE DISCUS TROPICAL FISH | eBay

That's the one I've got. Had it about a year now and I've only just replaced the pre filters. We picked up some sort of hosepipe tap connection from the cheapy shop up the road which now stays on my kitchen tap, that way the unit just plugs on and off the tap easily. I was going to plumb it in originally, but it was too much hassle!! 
You'll have to experiment with remineralisers though and make sure you get the water right before it goes near the tank. That part can be a bit of a pita. You have to add exactly the same amount each time or you can end up causing pH swings and all sorts of horrible things. Most good lfs should sell the remineraliser, think mines called tropic something or other! 
Good luck! :2thumb: I have the same nitrate issues and I really haven't looked back since I got a unit. I can keep whatever fish I like now and get their water perfect for them 

Oh, and don't be tempted to try drinking RO, it's disgusting!! :gasp: (yes, I tried...lol)


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Christie_ZXR said:


> 3 STAGE AQUARIUM RO REVERSE OSMOSIS SYSTEM UNIT MARINE DISCUS TROPICAL FISH | eBay
> 
> That's the one I've got. Had it about a year now and I've only just replaced the pre filters. We picked up some sort of hosepipe tap connection from the cheapy shop up the road which now stays on my kitchen tap, that way the unit just plugs on and off the tap easily. I was going to plumb it in originally, but it was too much hassle!!
> You'll have to experiment with remineralisers though and make sure you get the water right before it goes near the tank. That part can be a bit of a pita. You have to add exactly the same amount each time or you can end up causing pH swings and all sorts of horrible things. Most good lfs should sell the remineraliser, think mines called tropic something or other!
> ...


LOL i would have tried it too if you hadn't warned me just XD

that ones looks really good for a lot cheaper than the other one (the JBL Osmose 120) so good too know i don't have to spend a fortune for something that works well.



Here's a point i haven't mentioned through out this whole saga...

the weather loach is absolutely fine... i feel bad that i've left him out but he hides a lot so sometimes i forget he's there, even though he is awesome! i think he's extra happy since i bought him a plastic log hide just nice for him to hide from the other two when he wants some peace! So he's often in there just with his head poking out, being nosey.

He's not sitting, he darts about when a storms brewing as normal, and does swim about when he doesn't feel like shying away. He's not having any trouble at all, and seems in perfect health.

Are they really hardcore against nitrates because he's been in there just as long as Pedro?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I have a drinkiing water system from Collins Water Products, and it's excellent. Cost about the same as a standard 3 stage system from a brand, but comes with an intermittent kit and water storage tank and a faucet.

I DO drink water from it, as unlike normal RO systems it has a carbon filter that filters the water on it's way to the faucet, improving the taste.

I added a none return valve on the outlet as well, which is important if you want the valve that turns off the waste once pressure is high enough on the filtered side to actually work. With this though basically once my storage tank is full it turns of the system for me, reducing waste. If you want to reduce waste further you can use the waste water to water plants etc that don't mind uber hard water.

All this said, I mirror what others have said, it's unlikely to be nitrates making your fish sick. Is it possible you just got a dogy Oranda? It happens.

Ade


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Wolfenrook said:


> I have a drinkiing water system from Collins Water Products, and it's excellent. Cost about the same as a standard 3 stage system from a brand, but comes with an intermittent kit and water storage tank and a faucet.
> 
> I DO drink water from it, as unlike normal RO systems it has a carbon filter that filters the water on it's way to the faucet, improving the taste.
> 
> ...


i've had him nearly 3 years from when he was tiny, and he's only been like this since the nitrates kicked in. I got the other one in September, quarantined and wormed her, and she only recently started to act off.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Also, on the advise of another goldie specialist, i've bought a heater, and an airstone to give a bit more bubbleyness and help the oxygen out a bit.

Whats the best temperature to set it at? I've never bothered before so i don't know but the room does get cold when we're not in all day (electric heaters with no timer function hard-wired into the wall and crap insulation!) but she said they would appreciate a little warmth to bring the tank up to a more suitable temp when its so cold, so wouldn't need to use it in the summer! I've read best temperature for goldies is about 20C-24C at the most, but would be great if anyone else has advice on that!


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

I didn't have a goldie for long, but I kept him at 20 degrees and he seemed to do well.

This is the tap fitting thingy I was on about for the RO unit:
I'm sure it's not the proper way of doing it! But my sink is right in the corner and pretty hidden, so having that thing on the tap all the time doesn't bother me 










ignore the crappy photo and messy sink plz! :lol2:


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Christie_ZXR said:


> I didn't have a goldie for long, but I kept him at 20 degrees and he seemed to do well.
> 
> This is the tap fitting thingy I was on about for the RO unit:
> I'm sure it's not the proper way of doing it! But my sink is right in the corner and pretty hidden, so having that thing on the tap all the time doesn't bother me
> ...


haha you aint seen my sink!

nah that looks pretty simple have set up then, nice and easy!  ta!


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

The white bit is what the unit comes with, the other bit was only a couple of quid from the cheap shop. I think it's some sort of outside tap hosepipe attachment, so you can probs get them from homebase or somewhere similar.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

i wouldnt be adding any heat at all, the warmer the water the less oxygen it holds, keep it cool, and add the air stones. room temp is perfectly fine for any fancy goldfish. i do not agree with heating them, at all, believe it or not i actually have a fancy goldfish in my pond outside right now, i cant catch the little sod, he went in there briefly when he was getting far too much for the females during a spawn and was damaging both them and himself and my QT buckets were in use, and now hes learnt how to avoid me at every turn in the pond. hes as active as the commons out there, eating well and is 1st up for food every time too, he is very healthy, the pond has dropped to 8* and hes still been active and happy. i need to get hold of a decent sized net with a long handle and try and catch him again, but that wont be for another month or more until i can afford one. its going to be a test of how hardy he is if he wont let me catch him beforehand, and its going to be a long aclimatisation when i do manage it thats for sure! good job the pond is covered and holding its heat but hes certainly not seeming at all bothered by being out there.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> i wouldnt be adding any heat at all, the warmer the water the less oxygen it holds, keep it cool, and add the air stones. room temp is perfectly fine for any fancy goldfish. i do not agree with heating them, at all, believe it or not i actually have a fancy goldfish in my pond outside right now, i cant catch the little sod, he went in there briefly when he was getting far too much for the females during a spawn and was damaging both them and himself and my QT buckets were in use, and now hes learnt how to avoid me at every turn in the pond. hes as active as the commons out there, eating well and is 1st up for food every time too, he is very healthy, the pond has dropped to 8* and hes still been active and happy. i need to get hold of a decent sized net with a long handle and try and catch him again, but that wont be for another month or more until i can afford one. its going to be a test of how hardy he is if he wont let me catch him beforehand, and its going to be a long aclimatisation when i do manage it thats for sure! good job the pond is covered and holding its heat but hes certainly not seeming at all bothered by being out there.



wow he sounds such a tank!! Hardcore lil fishy right there, sounds like he'd beat up any cat or heron who tried to eat him anyway! well, the heaters off ebay so wasn't very expensive, so might try it anyway and if no different i'll not bother


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

keep a very close eye on them then, the heat will do no good for them as it depletes the oxygen in the water and stresses them further, watch for more rapid gill movement and hanging at the surface etc. it will also increase their metabolism so they will create more ammonia, which in turn will cause an even larger nitrate issue. mine tend to be be hungrier aswell in warmer water. i just wouldnt do it and let them be at room temp. i know some keepers do have heaters in their tanks, but as far as i have ever seen, it does nothing good for the fish, unless in a very cold room and the tanks temp swings several degrees day and night etc, or when trying to speed up the life cycle of whitespot or something. it certainly wont do anything good for your weather loach either who actually needs cold water, the cooler the better for dojos. i am at the moment keeping my lids open on my tank, with a window blowing across the surface of the water to try and keep it as cool as possible to hold as much oxygen as possible with my high nitrates. its really helping them out so far. will be installing a 4way air pump hopefully this evening too. 

i have just added a small heater to my tank of goldfish fry though, forgot about where i had put them and there was draft blowing at the tank, they were frozen and i lost loads :bash: been out all day too so hadnt noticed til about an hour ago! have done a small water change and vac'd the bottom of the tank, and the remaining ones are now looking much happier in their warmer set-up.....oops! think im going to lose a few more though, depressing or what :censor:

yes the fancy in the pond is a hardy guy, hes not an oranda so no wen which can be sensitive to cold moreso, but still hes a fantail so not as hardy as the commons and comets. though he doesnt seem to think so! little bugger :lol2:

managed to pull out a water lily tuber this afternoon, have just planted it in some gravel in a glass in the bottom of the tank, it already has a very small leaf which looks to have recently sprouted so hopefully not too long before that takes off and helps take out some of the nitrates...fingers crossed


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## Mister Meaner (Jun 1, 2009)

I plan to use something like this on my r/o unit, it cuts/seals itself to the cold feed used to feed say your sink or washer machine and you can control the flow and turn it of when not needed.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> keep a very close eye on them then, the heat will do no good for them as it depletes the oxygen in the water and stresses them further, watch for more rapid gill movement and hanging at the surface etc. it will also increase their metabolism so they will create more ammonia, which in turn will cause an even larger nitrate issue. mine tend to be be hungrier aswell in warmer water. i just wouldnt do it and let them be at room temp. i know some keepers do have heaters in their tanks, but as far as i have ever seen, it does nothing good for the fish, unless in a very cold room and the tanks temp swings several degrees day and night etc, or when trying to speed up the life cycle of whitespot or something. it certainly wont do anything good for your weather loach either who actually needs cold water, the cooler the better for dojos. i am at the moment keeping my lids open on my tank, with a window blowing across the surface of the water to try and keep it as cool as possible to hold as much oxygen as possible with my high nitrates. its really helping them out so far. will be installing a 4way air pump hopefully this evening too.
> 
> i have just added a small heater to my tank of goldfish fry though, forgot about where i had put them and there was draft blowing at the tank, they were frozen and i lost loads :bash: been out all day too so hadnt noticed til about an hour ago! have done a small water change and vac'd the bottom of the tank, and the remaining ones are now looking much happier in their warmer set-up.....oops! think im going to lose a few more though, depressing or what :censor:
> 
> ...



hmm see the difference here is that there will be a temperature swing in the room normally, for most of the day/overnight the heating is not on and the room is so cold your nose runs! but once we are in in in the evening when after 6, we put the heating on which makes the room very warm, however once turned off the room loses heat and becomes as cold again within less than an hour (we've even sealed up the windows with duct tape and have daft excluders on the doors etc it's cheap crappy insulation or non at all!) so i think just a slight bit of help from a heater to keep a steady temp, save it jumping up and down as it must be. What i'll do first though is dig a thermometer out and check how cold it is, both room and water temp and see what the changes are like, as without that i don't know for sure! just going on what Michelle at Goldfish Gala suggested  

poor little fry though, i hope the rest of them do fine! that must have been really gutting!

Lid open was one of the first things i ever tried, and that did help slightly, well once i started doing it Pedro wasn't AS bad, not a huge improvement but it did make a difference. 

Hope your water lillies work though  going to get hold some myself soon hopefully see if i can give it a whirl!


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

hand on heart here, i would not add a heater to your tank. in the wild, fish have a day night cycle where the water will cool a little, this is normal, and i would check the day temps in the middle of the day, then night temps first thing in the morning to see how much the tank dropped. i know you are going by what michelle says, but me and michelle do disagree in various ways on goldfish keeping, and warming any goldfish tank is one of our big differences. your tank is large, and the water shouldnt drop by that much over night. if you do add a heater, set it to the minimum day time temps of your tank, so all it will do it keep it at a constant and not actually warm it up. i feel it will do more harm than good in a tank with nitrate issues,as one of the main problems with high nitrates is the goldfishes lack of ability to use oxygen in the water, so warming the water will only make matters worse and lead to less oxygen being absorbed, even with airstones.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> hand on heart here, i would not add a heater to your tank. in the wild, fish have a day night cycle where the water will cool a little, this is normal, and i would check the day temps in the middle of the day, then night temps first thing in the morning to see how much the tank dropped. i know you are going by what michelle says, but me and michelle do disagree in various ways on goldfish keeping, and warming any goldfish tank is one of our big differences. your tank is large, and the water shouldnt drop by that much over night. if you do add a heater, set it to the minimum day time temps of your tank, so all it will do it keep it at a constant and not actually warm it up. i feel it will do more harm than good in a tank with nitrate issues,as one of the main problems with high nitrates is the goldfishes lack of ability to use oxygen in the water, so warming the water will only make matters worse and lead to less oxygen being absorbed, even with airstones.


Thanks Goldie  all i plan on is more of bare minimum thing to keep it more constant over the colder months, i wouldn't want to 'heat' per say. i'll probably check the temps and see i'm fretting over nothing anyway and not use the heater at all! ah well it wasn't very expensive


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## INJAF (Nov 12, 2011)

Just catching up here; on the heater issue I have heaters in my tanks as my old house used to get pretty cold when the heating wasn't on, I mean down to about 10 degrees sometimes, brr! The central heating was also a bit temperamental and if it didn't come on at all things could get a little arctic! The tank temps used to drop quite dramatically sometimes (despite their size) so I had heaters set at about 20 degrees just to keep the temps a bit more stable in very cold spells. I still have the heaters in now we've moved but they very rarely come on. I don't have them to heat the water per se, it's only to keep the temps from dropping too much  The tanks would get slightly warmer during the day with the tank lights and central heating in the house so there was still a slight variation between day and night, it just wasn't quite so dramatic.

Hope you find a suitable solution for the nitrate problem, if it ever comes out of the tap at over 50ppm I'd contact the water company because AFAIK the legal limit for tapwater is 50ppm.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

INJAF said:


> Just catching up here; on the heater issue I have heaters in my tanks as my old house used to get pretty cold when the heating wasn't on, I mean down to about 10 degrees sometimes, brr! The central heating was also a bit temperamental and if it didn't come on at all things could get a little arctic! The tank temps used to drop quite dramatically sometimes (despite their size) so I had heaters set at about 20 degrees just to keep the temps a bit more stable in very cold spells. I still have the heaters in now we've moved but they very rarely come on. I don't have them to heat the water per se, it's only to keep the temps from dropping too much  The tanks would get slightly warmer during the day with the tank lights and central heating in the house so there was still a slight variation between day and night, it just wasn't quite so dramatic.
> 
> Hope you find a suitable solution for the nitrate problem, if it ever comes out of the tap at over 50ppm I'd contact the water company because AFAIK the legal limit for tapwater is 50ppm.



that's what i'm going to try out 

and yep i've already contacted the water company, and was talked down in the most patronising way about how an API test kit being only worth about however much, and their testing equipment being worth tens of thousands, meaning i must be wrong and being very silly! "we get lots of calls like this.." yeah because your water is bad!!!!! Made me so cross and he had the cheek to lecture me about how to keep fish/prepare water etc assuming i knew nothing... i'm pretty sure if i can identify a problem regarding nitrates, test my water properly etc i'm not just a newbie with a goldfish in a bowl who fills it up straight from the tap! :bash: so they wont even admit there is a problem , it's just not right at all!


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## INJAF (Nov 12, 2011)

Just out of interest have you tried any other nitrate test kits? I gave up on the API one ages ago as I just found it too hard to differentiate between the orange/a bit red/really red with higher readings. I use the Tetra one now, I find the colours much easier to differentiate. I tried the Hagen one too but didn't get on at all with it. 

You are pretty close with your memory of the nitrate/buoyancy problems issue, there's a good explanation on The GAB, personally I have a _lot_ more faith in The GAB than the 911 site and I would seriously hesitate to undertake some of the treatments the 911 site recommends for dealing with nitrate poisoning!

Swim Bladder/Flip Over

I would consider information in articles on The GAB to be reliable, that particular author goes into things in considerable detail  I've also read that high nitrates can affect the digestive system in that nitrate converted to nitrite in the bloodstream means less oxygen in the blood and so the metabolism is adversely affected, including digestion. A dodgy digestive system in a goldie can contribute to buoyancy problems too, so it's all horribly intertwined


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

im going to try the tetra tests, i think it was tetra i used to use, my husband bought me the api one and i wouldnt have chosen this one personally. i want to make sure it is what it says it is, and i too have great trouble seeing whereabouts the levels are between the red and orange colours.

that article is a great read, very interesting.


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