# Breeding Mice...I cocked up



## Furless-Friends (Apr 7, 2006)

Hey folks.... I really cocked up today and wanted you all to know... not for the ridicule but so that noone else will make the same mistake.

I had my first little of mice 2 days ago.... now rcently I have been adding the cotton bedding to the mice cage as they seemed to be using it and enjoying nesting in it.

Cleaned out the cage today and 3 of the pinkies had the bedding wrapped round their limbs.... so tighly in these cases that the limbs had had the blood flow cut off and the limb(s) had atrophied (sp)

Obviously I euthanised the pinkies as soon as i assessed the extent of the damage but wanted you all to be aware of this danger.

The bedding was supposed to be rodent friendly but obviously not for newborns as I've found out.

Please be aware of this ANYONE thinking of breeding.

Cheers

Andy

P.S. I hate animals suffering and this has really gutted me.


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## Kooli (Jun 13, 2006)

noo! your meaning the fluffing cotton candy floss type bedding? that's the WORST type of bedding to use for mice! im really sorry you found out the hard way. the best thing to use is the paper flakes, that is great for all ages of mice. Also, i have used dust estracted wood chips and shawshavings, with hay for them to nest in. 

really sorry you lost some babies, are these pet mice your breeding or feeder ones?


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## Furless-Friends (Apr 7, 2006)

Feeders..... but i believe in not letting them suffer at all... building a CO2 box now.

Yeah I found out the hard way but At least I've learnt from it and HOPEFULLY if someone else was thinking about it I have stopped then!


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## Kooli (Jun 13, 2006)

yup, it was a while before i realised that the cotton wool type bedding was bad for them. 

how are you planning to build the co2 box? i breed mice for pets (long haired/rex/satins) but i am tempted to start breeding my own mice to kill for the snakes, but i really need to know how to kill them humanely. i really really dont want them to suffer any more than they have to. 

if you can give me some advice and tips on euthanising them, i would be really grateful


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## Furless-Friends (Apr 7, 2006)

Still working on that... have a few ideas as to the creation of the Co2 without resorting to buying C02 bottles.

Gimme a day or 2 to figure it out.

Andy


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Co2 box?

I was wanderin how the pinkies etc we buy are killed, i assumed maybe electricted..


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## NNY (Feb 2, 2006)

Nope C02 on a big scale..if you eletricuted them you'd have cooked mice.


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## Kooli (Jun 13, 2006)

pinkies have a smothering reaction though, so that the mother doesn't kill them. so i think it takes a lot longer than the few minutes it takes to kill the older mice and rats


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Really? a quick shock enough to just kill the brain would cook them?
i woulda thought poisoning them would leave nastiness behind... good to know as i have often wandered.
cheers for that, ill sleep well now


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

its likely they were dead coz the mum left them.


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## 16-BIT (Apr 17, 2006)

mix hydrocholric acid or any potent low ph acid with sodium bicarb and u have high co2 emissions


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## liam_rokocoko (Aug 25, 2006)

yeah, that stuff is really dangerous for all rodents i really don't know how it has servived on the market so long, i used to have dwarf hamsters and i used shredded toilet paper, its cheap and very safe.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

you can use vinigar and bicarb in a co2 chamber, but I am not sure on the mixing volumes, several people use this method but you must ensure you do this in a very well ventilated area.
pinks can not really be killed with co2, it would take about half an hour or more due to their anti smothering reaction, the options are a flick on the head or freezing  IMO a flick on the back of the head is more humain


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## 16-BIT (Apr 17, 2006)

vinager take along time as its not a strong acid. if u use proper acid they will last about 5 mins. u coudl also use something like iron oxide as a catalyst


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## manda (Mar 18, 2005)

my dads always told me that if you flick there noses they will die stright away nice and easy thats how him and his dad used to do it many many years ago its like if we got uppercutted on the nose it can send the bone into the brain and kill us same with flicking a mouse on the nose easy job
manda xx


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## Jack13 (Nov 30, 2005)

vaccuum seal the pinkies and freeze them


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## CBR1100XX (Feb 19, 2006)

Jack and lizardlover I think both the methods you mentioned would cause unnecessary suffering. Jack yours is obviously suffocation, try putting yourself in a tub then freezing, not nice eeh :lol: and lizard not 100% going to kill them all by flicking but I know what you mean as my grandad used to do the same many years ago only with pinkies though.


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## manda (Mar 18, 2005)

im not sure what size you can do my method on my dad just said thats how he did it lol dint ask how big they were :lol: :lol: 
manda xx


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## Duzzie (Dec 22, 2005)

Rather than mixing acids to make co2, you can buy cans of CO2, intended to promote plant growth in fish tanks. They are not expensive and would be less messy

http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/addtobasket.asp?skid=4857&retp=079&rets=203

Duzzie


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

so dying from Co2 isnt suffocating?
Sorry never been subjected to it myself..


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

If your air supply is cut off you struggle for breath and start to panic. With CO2 however you would become drowsy and pass out, no panic, no struggling to breathe. CO2 inhalation is much less traumatic than normal suffocation.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

I guess so, in all the cases of human related events it seems you can pretty much just go to sleep and er..die...
and it seems you may not be aware you are being er..poisoned? i guess that must mean theres no pain...
So... does this make the Mice redder in colour like it does humans? merely wanderin..


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## xXmoXx (Jun 14, 2006)

i was thinking of breeding mice to feed but i dont think i could stand doing it  the co2 canister thing how do u do it with that put mice in a tub and put that in ?


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## timmyjones (Oct 5, 2006)

The co2 canisters designed for fish tanks are slow release not fast so i don think that it would work very quickly!


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

Co2 is heavier than air, so if its pumped into a chamber with a breather pipe at the top, the oxygen is forced out by the heavier Carbon Dioxide..



> vinager take along time as its not a strong acid


not so!!!!!! i nearly killed dave and i the first time i tried it this way.. slow reaction NOT !!!!!

use white vinegar, not malt...

there is a box you put the mice in, connected to 2 boxes you make the carbon dioxide in... the carbon dioxide passes from the mixing boxes to the main box where the mice breathe it in

2 stage process, stage one sends them to sleep, stage two kills them

stops them dying with burning eyes and throat and gasping in distress.. this way, they fall asleep gently first, and suffocate when they are already unconsious

carbon dioxide in the home can be made by mixing bicarbonate of soda and vinegar.. 


some info taken from an american site... the technique and usage points are the same from uk to us..


> Of those methods for euthanasia approved by the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) 1, the only method that could be used safely at home involves the use of carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide (CO2) is heavier than air and nearly odorless. In low concentrations (7.5%) it is an analgesic (pain reliever), and at medium concentrations (30%-40%) it can be used as an anesthetic, causing rapid loss of consciousness without struggling, distress, or excitation. 3 At high concentrations (>80%) CO2 causes quick death. High concentrations, however, painfully irritate eyes and the respiratory tract, so it is important to first induce an analgesic effect, then bring about deep anesthesia (within 1 to 2 minutes) before exposing the animal to high concentrations. Because the AVMA believes that the flow of CO2 can be regulated adequately only by using compressed CO2, only the use of CO2 cylinders is approved. The following method, being adapted for home use, does not require the use of compressed gas cylinders. The AVMA Panel on Euthanasia has not been asked to approve the following method, and no approval is implied. The author is satisfied that the method is sound and readers should judge for themselves.
> 
> The AVMA approves the use of CO2 for euthanasia in most small animals including amphibians, birds, reptiles, rodents, and other small mammals weighing less than two pounds (1 kg). Some amphibians and reptiles, however, may breathe too slowly or be able to hold their breath for long periods of time making other methods of euthanasia preferable. Also some burrowing and diving animals (such as some species of rabbit and marine mammals) have prolonged survival times when exposed to CO2. Also excluded from AVMA approval would be all cats and dogs, even small ones. The following method has been tested only on rodents.
> 
> ...


for the full article, see here

http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/


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## SCI (Feb 28, 2006)

You could also buy a reaper of this lady,they work a treat but be warned pinkies take ages to gas.I've used a co2 bottle for a mig wielder,a fire extinguisher and it still takes ages.
http://www.freewebs.com/rodentreaper/


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## SCI (Feb 28, 2006)

andyb5 said:


> Hey folks.... I really cocked up today and wanted you all to know... not for the ridicule but so that noone else will make the same mistake.
> 
> I had my first little of mice 2 days ago.... now rcently I have been adding the cotton bedding to the mice cage as they seemed to be using it and enjoying nesting in it.
> 
> ...


This stuff is good for adult rodents but for pinkies or rat pups use paper thats been though a shredder,it work a treat.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

yes, pinkies have a ability to live in very high concentrations of Co2

this is an adaptation to being in the nest, and sat on by mum so much.. there gets to be a lot of stale air in there.

the best way for pinks is to hold them between thumb and finger and flick them very hard on the back of the skull, thus destroying the brain. 

pinkies, being so small, do not suffer the same crstals in the blood and exploding eyes that adults do when frozen, so many people i know, will put them straight into the freezer.

please do not freeze them when they get past getting hair stage tho!

N


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

i dont care what anyone says, these are the most humane ways to kill.
pinks and fluffs, 99% of mine died sitting on the freezer waiting to go in it, thats minutes, anything bigger a blow to the head of some variety done correctly will kill instantly 1st time every time.
i know alot of people wont like that, but personally?, i just cant see how choking something to death os more humane than smashing it over the head with a brick (not what i do by the way, just an example, i used to swing them round by their tails and hit the heads on the side of the freezer, once you get it right it works every single time.. its not nice, but its quicker and less painful than anything else and more cost effective too)


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## Jack13 (Nov 30, 2005)

totally agree with you, a simple wack is all i do when i have run out of frozen food and waiting for an order. but i do it outside  , big Rats are harder, sometimes when your holding their tail they swing around so fast, i hate having to chase it in the front garden


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

i wouldnt do it with a rat, that would not be easy and i'd probably break my freezer :lol:


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## pie_man (Oct 1, 2005)

i agree with nige tbh its how i killed mine wen i bred them and it was so much easier


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

when you buy the frozenones they always look like they have died a horrid death, with bloody faces, I guess thats what the co2 does  
I have to say that despite being a girl i find it much easier to dispatch them Nigels way (unless they happen to be extra pretty and female and then I tend to keep them  )


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

in the past anyone who bought from me always had red lab mice :lol:


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## SCI (Feb 28, 2006)

cornmorphs said:


> i dont care what anyone says, these are the most humane ways to kill.
> pinks and fluffs, 99% of mine died sitting on the freezer waiting to go in it, thats minutes, anything bigger a blow to the head of some variety done correctly will kill instantly 1st time every time.
> i know alot of people wont like that, but personally?, i just cant see how choking something to death os more humane than smashing it over the head with a brick (not what i do by the way, just an example, i used to swing them round by their tails and hit the heads on the side of the freezer, once you get it right it works every single time.. its not nice, but its quicker and less painful than anything else and more cost effective too)


Co2 gassing is the method used in killing many animals we eat as food,so we know it must be one of the most humane ways of doing it.As for flicking them on the head.I've found a mouse trap works better for this.First time every time.


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

i get ya, not sure how often hulk hogun would be about to swing a cow and crack it :lol: with mice, thats tha convo really..
look at it like this, would you like to choke to death in 2/3 mins?, or die instantly?
i see what people mean when they say its not humane, it isnt, but its more humane imo as you die without pain.


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

Personally I use a CO2 cylinder bought from a welding website. Turned low to knock them out, then higher to finish it.
Takes about 5 seconds for an adult to lose conciousness, no panic, just falls over. Takes up to 15 seconds for pinkes...


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

actually thats quite quick.. still not as quick as my way, but equally as cheap if you get it free :lol:


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

SCI said:


> cornmorphs said:
> 
> 
> > i dont care what anyone says, these are the most humane ways to kill.
> ...



like what ?

Sheep. pigs, cows + bolt through the brain
chickens + electric shock
fish+ suffocation.


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## SCI (Feb 28, 2006)

Actually the place I used to work in,co2 pigs first to put them to sleep then cut there throats with a very sharp knife.


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## SCI (Feb 28, 2006)

cornmorphs said:


> i get ya, not sure how often hulk hogun would be about to swing a cow and crack it :lol: with mice, thats tha convo really..
> look at it like this, would you like to choke to death in 2/3 mins?, or die instantly?
> i see what people mean when they say its not humane, it isnt, but its more humane imo as you die without pain.


I take it you have never seen a mouse dye from co2 gassing.There is no chocking.Having you brain staved of oxygen is a very peaceful way to dye.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

then why are co2'd mice always bleeding from nose/mouth ect when I defrost them ?

Instant brain trauma death just seems the kindest way (I would opt for that for me rather than the gas chamber  )


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

i guess not si, but we all have our opions i suppose..
i just think my way is the quickest, well i know it is.


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## Jack13 (Nov 30, 2005)

Quickest and Cheapest! :2thumb: :2thumb:


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

> then why are co2'd mice always bleeding from nose/mouth ect when I defrost them ?


Is it actually blood, or is it just porphyrin staining? Remember that tears, snot, etc, in rats and mice is red, not clear, so an amount of red staining on a dead mouse or rat is not unusual even if the death was peaceful - and this would increase when frozen and defrosted.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

also... a mouse thats been killed by hitting it over the head...

quite also often has blood coming from the nose, mouth or ears..

the difference is, i have found, that the blood clots, and when you df them, it doesn't leak out much..

Co2 done right is painless. its a two step process.. first a small amount of Co2 to induce sleep.. then once they are asleep.. which is only seconds.. you run stage two and flood with a heavier dose of Co2. this is what kills them.

its is totally peaceful, they yawn a few times, and then shut the eyes and sleep.. then shortly after, breathing ceases.. there is no gasping for air and panicing.. (this is not a scene from Total Recall you know!)

using the table is faster if you are doing a small amount.. but i know people do 50 in one go like this quicker than you could swing them all. 

its a more peaceful, less hands on approach, for people who are not keen on being hands on during the actual act of death. Its not slow, and its not painful WHEN DONE CORRECTLY !!

table is also not slow, and is simple, and is effective.. but.. those amongst you who actually do it, rather then those of you who just talk about it.. will know that it is a more.. violent (if thats the right word) way to do it.. and not all people like that as an idea, the physical act of the "swing"..

anyway..

Nerys


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

well thats it, we all have our own ways.. i havent actually needed to do it for along time now though.


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## fluffy (Sep 26, 2006)

wohic said:


> then why are co2'd mice always bleeding from nose/mouth ect when I defrost them ?


When you freeze cells, the freezing process causes the liquids to swell which in turn causes the cells to burst.
When you defrost these burst cells, the liquid runs out.
Therefore they are likely to bleed from any orifice.

CO2 is 'painless' sadly thats why many people fall foul to it in their homes due to faulty gas appliances. They dont even realise...they just get tired, fall asleep and dont wake up again!
The science behind the 'non suffocation' is that CO2 is one of the few gasses that the body accepts as though it was oxygen. The red blood cells carry it round the body where it is effectively useless.
The 'physical' act of suffocating therefore, never happens. The brain is starved of oxygen and starts to shut down, before the rest of the body realises whats happening.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

used to work for a BIG company that bred mice and rats for the research extras and ill ones (adults) were gassed, and there basically went to sleep no pain the pinkies were put on a tray and frooze i know that sounds horrib=d but basically the pinkies just went into a deep sleep a bit like herbnation and fell asleep

we are just starting to breed our own mice for feed as its getting expensive buying them all in


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## siabod666 (Nov 19, 2006)

Noob question here.Is it not possible to feed pinkies live to a snake.? would they damage inside?


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

no, they would be dead before they were swallowed in most cases..

tbh, here in the UK, we steer away from feeding live..

a snake fed live food, sometimes will not go back to eating pre-killed food..

whilst a pinkie cannot hurt a snake.. an adult mouse can.. and i ahve seen some horific cases were the mouse has eaten part of the snake

also... snakes fed live, are more likely to mistake things like your hands, or nose.. or whatever, for prey.. 

in the UK is is NOT illegal to live feed in private (i.e. not as a public display or attraction)

NOT ILLEGAL... BUT.... you CAN be prosecuted for animal cruelty if its shown you caused un necessary suffering to the animal

to be covered, it really needs to be done under veterinary advice, for a snake that will die otherwise... and then you have to prove you did it humanely... a bit of a mindfield to say the least.

if you snake will eat pre-killed food, there is never any reason to feed it live food really.. a snake that will die otherwise, is a different matter though (IMHO)

N


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

can't find the pic i am after

but this is another one... this was caused by a rat bite, when a snake did not eat the prey, and the rat was left in



















it can also happen even if the snake does take the prey item.. if they get a bad grip, or get the strike wrong, they can get bitten badly..


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

the simple theory is to put the mouse in for about 10 seconds.. in my experience you know immediately if its gonna take.. if not then out it comes... if you always watch then there isnt much that can go wrong.. i have never used rats so cant say for those..
but simple rules and there would not be a problem, obviously this is presuming your snake needs to eat live to keep it alive etc..


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## Rubber-man (Dec 23, 2006)

Mammels produce CO2 by exhaling, the easiest way to kill pinks/fluffs with CO2 is to put them in an air tight plastic bag and leave them until they use up all the O2 and fill the bag with CO2 through expired air. Thay will die relatively quickly.
Another option is just to drown them.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

wohic said:


> then why are co2'd mice always bleeding from nose/mouth ect when I defrost them ? )


i know this one

liquids expand when frozen, so the blood bursts the vessels carrying it, so when the blood returs to liquid state the shredded vessels can no longer do the job, therefore they bleed.

they can also bleed during the frezing process, while some of the blood is solid, and some is liquid, thats why some have blood on them when brought, that or they have been thawed and re-frozen


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

very good dan lol... thats hard work to understand at 7 am


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

cornmorphs said:


> very good dan lol... thats hard work to understand at 7 am


try understanding what ur writing at 4am lol u get the jist, 

as for the 'best' method, i ould go with putting in a sealed container, tupperware 4 example, and as said they will "breath to death" as cost effective as whacking on the freezer!, but not as painful, out of interest, how many have you had to hit twice? and, even tho it is quick they get a sharp pain before in the moment of death.


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## superhannahmarie (Jan 4, 2007)

> in the UK is is NOT illegal to live feed in private (i.e. not as a public display or attraction)
> 
> NOT ILLEGAL... BUT.... you CAN be prosecuted for animal cruelty if its shown you caused un necessary suffering to the animal


Feeding live animals to other animals is illegal in the U.K.

Under the Protection of Animal (Welfare) Act 1911 it is illegal to liberate any animal into an enclosed space from which it has no reasonable chance of escape from being hunted, or liberated in such a condition that it has no reasonable chance of escape.

This law does apply to the feeding of rodents to reptiles, as placing a mouse into a vivarium corresponds with it having no reasonable chance of escape, and feeding live pinkies is classed as liberated in such a condition that it has no chance of escape - its not like pinkies can jump up and run away!

Hannah


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## Rembrandt (Dec 29, 2006)

superhannahmarie said:


> > in the UK is is NOT illegal to live feed in private (i.e. not as a public display or attraction)
> >
> > NOT ILLEGAL... BUT.... you CAN be prosecuted for animal cruelty if its shown you caused un necessary suffering to the animal
> 
> ...


Indeed, punishable by up to 6 months in prison and/or a fine of £5000


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

superhannahmarie said:


> > in the UK is is NOT illegal to live feed in private (i.e. not as a public display or attraction)
> >
> > NOT ILLEGAL... BUT.... you CAN be prosecuted for animal cruelty if its shown you caused un necessary suffering to the animal
> 
> ...


in theory both these comments are right... as long as they are taken in the correct context.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

and thats where splitting hairs comes into it eh!

i don't believe there has been a sucessful prosecution under UK law, of someone livefeeding rodents to reptiles..

N


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

yeah exactly. it would be hard even for a corn to be proved as needing live, unless it was really underweight.. i have had corns not eat for 5/6 months and not look like they needed a good meal.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

I'm curious how those of you that use "DIY Co2" are able to regulate the amounts of the gas that enters the animal chamber?

The standard figure is 20% per minute for adding Co2 to a chamber containing rodents to get the animals asleep without stress from shortness of breath. This figure then increases to a minimum of 70% to cause death.

I appreciate you don't need exact figures and can watch whats going on but i still wonder if the standard figures are close to your own?


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## baby05x (Aug 1, 2006)

superhannahmarie said:


> Feeding live animals to other animals is illegal in the U.K.
> 
> Under the Protection of Animal (Welfare) Act 1911 it is illegal to liberate any animal into an enclosed space from which it has no reasonable chance of escape from being hunted, or liberated in such a condition that it has no reasonable chance of escape.
> 
> ...


 
someone has been doing their homework lol x


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## wo0thigh (Nov 15, 2007)

superhannahmarie said:


> Feeding live animals to other animals is illegal in the U.K.
> 
> Under the Protection of Animal (Welfare) Act 1911 it is illegal to liberate any animal into an enclosed space from which it has no reasonable chance of escape from being hunted, or liberated in such a condition that it has no reasonable chance of escape.
> 
> ...


What about putting live crickets and worms etc in with other reps?

Sorry to open up a dead thread, but im in process of breeding mice myself as one of my baby corns wont eat, and will only eat live pinks.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

wo0thigh said:


> What about putting live crickets and worms etc in with other reps?
> 
> Sorry to open up a dead thread, but im in process of breeding mice myself as one of my baby corns wont eat, and will only eat live pinks.


For some reason some reptile keepers inthe UK keep trying to tell us that live feeding is illegal but it isn't. There is a topic about live feeding on another section of this forum very worth reading, check out http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/general-herp-chat/28680-live-feeding-laws.html


Also I have a copy of a letter from DEFRA that was sent to a member of this forum answering a number of questions they had raised including about live feeding. The following is from the letter and may be of interest to you.


Finally, the protection of Animals Acts 1911 to 1964 do not prohibit the feeding of animals with live prey, although the live feeding of vertebrate prey should be discouraged and avoided apart from in exceptional circumstances and then only under veterinary advise. 
Where live prey must be used, feeding must be observed and its welfare must be considered as well as any potential injury which might be caused to the predator. 

The letter is signed by the MP Ben Bradshaw who was working on the new Animal Welfare bill for DFERA at the time.

Natrix


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## one_of_light (Jan 7, 2009)

the best, easiest and most pain free way to cull a mouse is through the act of cervical dislocation.

not by swinging it against a freezer, this will cause undo stress to the mouse in the moment before death...how would you feel if somone grabbed you by the feet and swung you to smash your skull on a wall???

i dont believe in gassing either, it takes too long and disorientation can be stressful, its one thing to be gassed when your asleep (like so many that have died in their homes) its another thing to be gassed when your fully awake.

cervical disloction literally snaps the membrane at the base of the skull causing instant death, to do this you place the mouse on a flat surface holding it at the base of the tail...move your thumb and forefinger up the mouses back until you reach the neck...apply a good amount of pressure down and pull the neck out and until you feel the snap.

this method can also be used on day old pups using just the thumb.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

its not a moment before death.. its more like a mili second.. how long do you think it takes to swing a mouse against a block???

and personally.. i tend to find holding onto a mouse by the tail, whilst you try and pull its head away from its neck.. takes longer, and causes more stress, both to me AND the mouse...

for people who have not got strong hands, and for people who are not confident about doing it.. it also takes a fair bit of tugging to do this to an adult rat

everyone has their own method of doing it. for me, my way works well. for others.. their way works well. i do agree with you on the gassing tho.

N


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## malthereplover (Aug 22, 2008)

Natrix said:


> For some reason some reptile keepers inthe UK keep trying to tell us that live feeding is illegal but it isn't. There is a topic about live feeding on another section of this forum very worth reading, check out http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/general-herp-chat/28680-live-feeding-laws.html
> 
> 
> Also I have a copy of a letter from DEFRA that was sent to a member of this forum answering a number of questions they had raised including about live feeding. The following is from the letter and may be of interest to you.
> ...


Its still Illegal unless approved by a vet etc, otherwise NO


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

oh for heavens sake!!!

NO

it is NOT illegal

UNLESS they can prove in a court of law, that you were causing unnecessary suffering.

even then the actual act of doing it is still NOT ILLEGAL

how many times does it have to be said, and how many hugely respected herpers, not to mention defra employees and members of our government is it going to take, to get this sodding point into some peoples heads!!

N


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## Oliver Dodds (Apr 26, 2008)

:bash:


malthereplover said:


> Its still Illegal unless approved by a vet etc, otherwise NO


aybe you should read the quoted post once more... Its not illegal, only discouraged...:whip:


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Nerys said:


> oh for heavens sake!!!
> 
> NO
> 
> ...


To be honest Nerys, I'm begining to think some of these people have been sent over from certain Animal Rights groups to brain wash us into thinking live feeding is illegal. 

For the record
I do know that it is under consideration by DEFRA as the FBH provided them with a lengthy code of best practice on live feeding over 2 years ago. I have no doubt that other groups would of been asked to provide reports on their opposing views. DEFRA have been rather silent of late but Until they (DEFRA) declare its illegal or provide us with some form of paper giving us a code of best practice on how to live feed, we can only go by the current legislation and DEFRA's opinion on what it means. 
So at this moment in time folks, live feeding is LEGAL.


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## rumplesnakeskin (Aug 22, 2009)

Buy yourself a cheap paper shredder. Every time you have junk mail shred it and use it for bedding. It is great and free and the babbies are safe in it. I have just had four females give birth today and there are about 40 pinkies there. All mums are nursing together what a sight ti see all them together.


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## JRoss (Aug 31, 2009)

*Cheap Euthanasia-- Homemade chamber*

:hmm:You can use a strong acid, perhaps ethanoic acid( vinegar) or something a little stronger with baking soda. When it is mixed together CO2 is released. I suggest using a large water tight bottle of some sort with a rubber tubing running into the 'euthanasia chamber'. The air in the chamber will quickly be filled with CO2 and this would slowly euthanize the rat/mouse. The smaller the chamber the quicker it will take effect and the less baking soda and acid needed. Also, the stronger the acid the quicker it will occur. Im a biochemist but im not sure on the required amounts needed to euthanize a 'pinkie' or 'juvenile' so that would be found out purely by experiment. If i bred snakes it would be of use to me but i only keep relatively small lizards at the moment so buying pinkies is more cost effective for me. There would be an equation that would tell you how many grams of baking soda and how many litres of vinegar to use based on the weight of the rat/mouse but that would have to be worked out by someone that used the system and timed how long it took for the rat/mouse to die. Either way this would be considerably cheaper than buying a CO2 canister and just as effective.


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