# destructive dog



## white (May 16, 2009)

i have a dog that wrecks my flat every time i go out.today i went out for half an hour,when i got back i found he had ripped up my carpet:devil:.anyone know how to stop this?


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## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

get him a crate? do you leave him plenty of chews/toys?


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## white (May 16, 2009)

i leave him plenty of toys and he is way to big for a crate


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## hashnak (Apr 18, 2009)

mine used to do this just trashed everything within minutes of us being out, weve had to start shutting them in the kitchen whilst were out, luckily its a bit kitchen and we make sure everything in theres out of reach of the dogs. other than that not sure what can be done theyre great when were at home but turn into devils the minute we leave:devil:


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## white (May 16, 2009)

mine can open the kitchen door as it is a slidding door


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## Love_snakes (Aug 12, 2007)

He is most likely bored or has SA. If you are going out for a long time, I find its best to take them out for a long walk are let them run around for a while. Then leave them toys that when they push food comes out and ones you can stuff food with. 

How old is he? What breed?


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## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

white said:


> mine can open the kitchen door as it is a slidding door


 
can you fit a stair-gate? thats what i have on my kitchen for the dog.
she always sleeps in there at night and when we are out


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## white (May 16, 2009)

Love_snakes said:


> He is most likely bored or has SA. If you are going out for a long time, I find its best to take them out for a long walk are let them run around for a while. Then leave them toys that when they push food comes out and ones you can stuff food with.
> 
> How old is he? What breed?


i have tried all that and he is a 2 year old white german shepherd


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## pythonpower (Apr 24, 2007)

Kong toy filled with meat ?. giant dog crate you can get them to house a great Dane sized there dog not cheap though but probably be cheaper in the long run with the chewing and destructive behaviour


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## white (May 16, 2009)

pythonpower said:


> Kong toy filled with meat ?. giant dog crate you can get them to house a great Dane sized there dog not cheap though but probably be cheaper in the long run with the chewing and destructive behaviour


 tried that


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Sounds like he has separation anxiety. I would recommend an Angela Stockdale leaflet called "Missing You". Has he been properly crate trained? You can easily get a crate large enough for him, can get them for about £40 on ebay roughly. Separation anxiety is not something fixed overnight and will require some commitment and work from you but the Missing You booklet is the best place to start. You can get it here:

Book info

Otherwise looking for a trainer through the APDT website might help too.

www.apdt.co.uk


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## temerist (Feb 1, 2009)

a german shepherd isnt too big for a crate at all, we have crates for if ours dogs have to come inside and we have tibetan mastiffs and boerboels. would definatly recommend one, wont take him long to get used to it, just remember NOT to use it as a punishment if he chews again.


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## Bluemad (Jun 28, 2009)

My first Weimeraner used to do that she was suffering from seperation anxiety you can get herbal drops to give them half hour before you leave that helps, we crate trained her and she was fine. we ended up getting another one anyway and they are both crate trained now. They love it!


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## white (May 16, 2009)

i used a crate when he was a pup but he did not like being in it when my other dog had the run of my place.any other suggestions?


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## Shelley66 (Feb 19, 2007)

Buy a bigger crate and train him to like it... ie feed him in it and give him treats and nice things in it. I have a Newfoundland sized crate which all my dogs happily go in and sleep in.

If he suffers from seperation anxiety you need to change his behaviour, but obviously that will take time. So if you don't want to have the place trashed you are going to have to use a crate for the time being.

When we are leaving ours we take her for a walk, play ball or do some training... Training wares then out more than walking does. Then they get left with a nice big raw bone... Though I have to say my GSD wouldn't touch it until we came home, my other dogs would devour theirs though. We tend to leave our dogs from when they are tiny, from seconds to minutes and then to hours, so that they get used to it.


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## white (May 16, 2009)

he got over the behaviour but has started up again


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## lilworm (Aug 11, 2007)

you have been given lots of suggestions and each will need time to take effect with you putting in as much effort to make it work it wont happen overnight, 
making sure you pooch is knackered before you leave will help, and a crate is a logical way forward until such a time he becomes comfortable with you leaving him behind, it does not matter your calmer dog has run of the house, your gsd cannot be loose as he cannot cope and some times giving them a smaller space will reduce stress, when you leave a crate will give him a secure place to sleep and help him cope when your gone. plus it will stop the destruction which will wear thin in time and be a danger to your dogs health should he eat something that may well kill him, a dog that destroys when you are out is a stressed unhappy dog until you return and he will be terrified, regardless of the other dog in the house so you need to address this and help him.
but you need to help him with this by showing him a crate is ok and that if he creates a racket when he is in it he cannot come out, he would have learned this as a puppy if you did not stick to your guns and allowed him out of his crate whilst he was crying and creating, you would have rewarded that behaviour by letting him out all be it inadvertantly.
but if you stick to your guns and leave him to cry he will learn that does not get him out of the crate but quiet calm behaviour will.
but if you are unsure how to go about rehabilitating a dog with seperation anxiety i would suggest a one to one with a apdt trainer who can go through step by step.
I would advise you also get get the book "the dog listener" by jan fennell and "the practical dog listener" by the same author.
It will help you address all aspects of how you interact with your dog and how this interaction affects the behaviour it may be insightful for you both.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

He shouldn't "create a racket" in a crate if he's trained to it properly. If a dog is that distressed when they're in the crate, you'll never train them to it properly, it's supposed to be a safe haven, not just somewhere you lock your dog until he stops barking.


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## white (May 16, 2009)

i have used an apdt trainer before they were useless and very expensive


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

What did they suggest, and why didn't it work?


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## tilly790 (Jan 24, 2008)

Kennel in yard for when you are out, leave him with a big juicy bone.


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## white (May 16, 2009)

tilly790 said:


> Kennel in yard for when you are out, leave him with a big juicy bone.


i have no outside space


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Eeek I wouldn't recommend that. Far too many dog thieves, we recommend that owners never leave their dog's unattended outside, not only is the threat of dog thieves high, but there's often more ways for them to get into bother than in a safe room. And in this weather, inside is better than out.


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## lilworm (Aug 11, 2007)

ok so all the suggestions above have failed. we now need to know why they failed.

What has changed in your life recently to bring this behaviour back if he had no problems before?
has he seen a vet to rule out anything medical if the behaviour has appeared suddenly?
how long did you attempt the techniques for?
how did you go about implementing them? 
how did your dog react to the new routines? 
what problems did you have when trying the suggested techniques to stop you from continuing?
what other problems does your dog have? 
where do they sleep? 
how long do they get walked for? 
how does he walk on the lead? 
what are they fed? how much? and when? 
what do you do when leaving the house? 
when you play games who instigates them? 
who finishes the games?

I suppose the biggest question is what are YOU prepared to do to fix the problem? to give your dog the confidence he needs to cope without you.
If you can answer in depth the questions above you may get better advice or we will get a better idea of you and your dog, 

Possible soloutions without effort.
get a dog sitter
take him everywhere with you...this gets tedious after a while!
get a family member to have him in the day
rehome him to someone who will put in the time required to rehabilitate him.


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## white (May 16, 2009)

that is a lot of questions to answer in one go.i will do anything it takes to sort his many problems out,but i cannot afford anymore expensive trainers


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

white said:


> i cannot afford anymore expensive trainers


Do you mind me asking what trainers you have tried and what their opinions/suggestions were? Sorry if I've missed this already in the thread.


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## lilworm (Aug 11, 2007)

to be honest these are the questions any trainer behaviourist will/should ask and they usually will consult more than once in an extreme case where the rehabilitation has been unsucessful but its getting to the bottom of why its been unsucessful. as you have stated he has Many problems so best just to get it all out in the open and it seems the destructive behaviour is not the only issue here, the library usually has the books i suggested if not the order them in for you, please consider reading them as it will help you understand your dog psychologically, if you can understand the mind you can control the behaviour


all you have to do is copy and paste the questions into word or word pad and answer in your own time, then copy and paste them in your reply later but please be as honest as you can as holding information back will not help your dog.


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## white (May 16, 2009)

i have used lot of trainers with different opinions.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Jan Fennell's techniques are pack ranking techniques and it's worth mentioning that most decent trainers nowadays do not recommend or follow these methods. I know of many trainers who believe Jan Fennell's books are actually potentially very dangerous to dogs. There is no "one method fits all" solution like she writes of. All the trainers I have worked with have advised owners to steer well clear of her books. Of course that's just my opinion and what you decide is entirely up to you - wishing you the best of luck.


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## lilworm (Aug 11, 2007)

Thats very vague and i am sorry to hear so many trainers have failed you, but i cannot help thinking this cannot be all the trainers fault they give you the tools to deal with the problem but they cannot fix it for you, thats something you have to do as you live with the dog

Please if possible not to be so vague, what have you been advised to do by these many trainers? we are not here to judge, your asking for help, we are trying to help, but you are not answering the question the lady asked about the advice you have been given which may help us to advise you further but theres no point in us guessing whats going on in your life with your dog and what you have tried in the past.


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## lilworm (Aug 11, 2007)

KathyM said:


> Jan Fennell's techniques are pack ranking techniques and it's worth mentioning that most decent trainers nowadays do not recommend or follow these methods. I know of many trainers who believe Jan Fennell's books are actually potentially very dangerous to dogs. There is no "one method fits all" solution like she writes of. All the trainers I have worked with have advised owners to steer well clear of her books. Of course that's just my opinion and what you decide is entirely up to you - wishing you the best of luck.



pc keeps crashing hopefully 3rd time lucky

Most modern techniques are based on psychology the phschology studies have come from somewhere and most of it is based on wolf behaviour,
the word pack and wolf have been abused in many ways and used negatively also.

jan has studied and based her technique on this behaviour but promote reward based training along side it like every trainer nowadays, understanding your dog phschologically cannot be damaging 
using physical force, leaving beahivour unaddressed certainly is.

I studied 6 years or so ago and jans metheods were alway hands off reward based training, reward the good ignore the bad and repetition of each metheod and how you interact with your dog can dictate its response good or bad, 
now i have never read one way fits all, but it is a basic platform or foundation to start from, and does need to be adjusted for the individual and each case is didfferent but reward based training applies in the same way as pshychology/pack structure its a basic foundation to start from, and most if not all trainers now apply this theory they just avoid using words like pack and leader. to be honest all these metheods are hand in hand we just calll it many things.

Jan fennell has never dominated a dog physically she teaches consequences of actions oh my thats reward based training isnt it, same as stillwell and stockdale, using a wolf pack as a example is to get an owner to let go of the human emotions that dont apply in the world of the dog. 
she used pack mentality to explain how to tap into a dogs way of thinking how your actions speak volumes to a dog and the way they percieve those actions, like why the dog is demanding attention and by pandering to such demand what you are telling your dog in his eyes, like ignoring nervous behavior and fear but rewarding calmness as by reward fear you encourage fear and it escalates so by ignoring the fear your dog sees theres nothing to be afraid of and calms and we then reinforce the calm with a reward. 

by teaching the importance of respect and how that control can save lives and stop biting incidents, respect can be gained without physical manipulation and physical control should not be used unless thers a life at risk, jan fennles metheods have never used physical touch

but she does promote sensible love, gaining respect from the way you interact with your dog, doorway respect not sleeping in your bed not sofa hugging without invitation how lead walking gains respect and also the safety aspect why door bolting should not be allowed, 
by not over indulging you dog with the love emotion which i do believe makes you weak in the eyes of an instinctive animal, a dog whose life revoles around his instict, but its about balance getting the love respect and physcology working together and being able to communicate with your dog appropietly, and how the way we behave directly affects our dogs.

humans placing emotions on dogs only creates the problem we _anthropamorphasise, 
_but if you do not understand why its happening how can you fix it so having a basic knowledge of psychology is needed to apply the metheods safely and sucessfully, I use many trainers techniques depending on the problem i am faced with and the personailty of the owner lifestyle and the level of the dogs problem.
I have a pack of dogs and yes i am their leader they look to me when faced with something they are unsure about i am resposable for them not vice versa i used all the techniques above and i can assure you they are not damaged but they were when they came to me! but I lead by example and reward them and pay good wages,

People need to study their dog get to know them what drives them and adjust training to suit them not take everything as gospel and look for an easy fix. how can you gain your dogs respect if you do not understand how his mind works. pack theory has its place but must be used approprietly along side reward based training. there will be an opinion on all trainers no matter who they are but go back far enough their foundations are all the same. its dressed up differently to fit in with current attitudes. study all forms of trainers gleen what you can put them to use to suit your own dog knowledge is the key.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Speaking from experience, pack ranking methods do more harm than good. Using them to correct fearful behaviour will only result in a broken dog. 

No you can't put human emotions on dogs, you are entirely right. And in the same vein you can't expect dogs to think you're a dog! 

Jan Fennell's answer to EVERY problem is that your dog is "dominant" and you're not "alpha". Firstly most behavioural issues do not stem from a "dominant" dog, and in this case the behaviour stems from fear. Using pack ranking methods on a fearful dog is asking for major trouble - I know because I was completely stung by a trainer who tried to sell me that crap, and when my dog was beyond saving I was told (like Jan Fennell tells those who doubt her methods) I was doing it wrong and wasn't bullying them enough. This catastrophic failure and resulting rehoming of my dog (I knew no better then) spurred on a long learning experience for me in real dog training. 

Going into the theory itself, this pack theory is allegedly based on the behaviour of captive wolves - that is wolves not even behaving as they would in the wild (much as the books will tell you it's wild wolf behaviour). A true alpha wolf doesn't eat before the others, it doesn't go through gaps before others, all of these types of behaviours would be risky to animals in the wild if you think about it. 

Jan Fennell's techniques will work for a very small minority of dogs, it will make them subdued and depressed which is often misread as "behaving". For more it won't make a blind bit of difference. And for some it will damage them beyond repair. Read for yourself what real trainers think of her work and what studies really show:

Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat

Victoria Stilwell - View topic - Jan Fennell


It's based on rubbish basically, which is its downfall.


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## white (May 16, 2009)

it's interesting you mentioned victoria stillwell,i hired once and she was very expensive and total crap


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I don't advocate her or her training, just found the thread through a quick search and one of the trainers partaking in the discussion is a close friend and very respected trainer. 

ETA: Not saying she's pants either as I've never worked with her or even read her stuff. It would be interesting to note at this point that any trainer is only as good as the effort put in by the owner, as if they're not committed and expect the trainer to fix things for them, they'll fail even with the best advice!


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## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

tbh It comes across that the main problem the dog has is the owner. People are putting in loads of effort asking specific question so they know what to suggest. You are just coming back with short statements that in no way answer the questions asked. Be careful or people will stop even replying.

Retraining/rehabilitating a dog takes a lot of commitment. It is never a quick fix. Not every technique works for every dog (one of the reasons for all the questions asked) but they all take time and consistency. Normally the behaviour gets worse before it gets better. When it does get better though it is worth all the hard work. You just have to decide if you are able to see it through. If not then the best thing you could do for the dog is rehome to someone that can/will put in the work needed.


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## lilworm (Aug 11, 2007)

see its about interpretation or maybe i learned something and then it all changed as i am not aware of any of the damaging metheods you mentioned god what have i missed, I can assure you my lot are not subdued lol

i do believe in leading by example and going through a door way first having a dog move our of your way for safety reasons alone, ignoring a dog jumping at you then rewarding whe he sits calm, wafting a door until the dog decides for himslef to walk away before i go through it first, basic safety and respect that pschological, you need to teach a dog what is required from you a clear set of rules i know my dogs know i am not a dog but i go to great effort to have a deep understanding of them and what drives them and what works. teaching them to sit stay ignore on coming agression and removing them from a situation should they feel it too much but always reward sucess with a touch look food depending, i can do this just by ignoring the on coming dog they follow my lead
not allowing dogs on beds sofa going through doorways first, eating first (if you must i dont bother with that), not allowing pulling on a lead how can that be damaging.

i have never read or seen her dominate a fearful dog i have seen other trainers do that, she ignores the fear and when she gets the dog moving forward by leading it she rewards it she does not reassure nervous behaviour but ignores till it passes and then shows what is expected and rewards for it. have i really missed something here? never in any of the books programmes i have seen her force or bully make a dog do anything.

i am obviously out with the old times so please point me in the new direction this is going as, as far as i was aware this is reward based training coupled with psychology, i have never used fear or dominated in the physical sense as this was never promoted, but yes she does promote leading your dog to behave the way you want it to by actions and reward.
how can that be damaging. 

no wolves alphas do not eat first in the alone sense they all get stuck in but they have a respectful place in the pack but they eat the prize organs, see what i mean about interpretation, the alpha lead the hunt say when to stop and work openly as a team of course together ensure sucessful hunt and pack survival and only they alpha are allowed to breed its a controlled family enviroment with rules and boundries.

people focus on the punishing physical idea of a pack this is a misconception on the human part, and not the rules and dynamics of one, they have a clear leader who tells them what and when and who they lead the fight the defend and are soley resposable for the stabilty of the pack
using pack mentality for me means using the leadership examples

so as a leader we say when to eat walk play sleep we lead the walk until such time as permitted to go in front, we dont crumble under pressure of fear we lead through it calmly and expect to be followed but that takes respect and trust with you gain from reward based training, so how can not letting your dog on the sofa in your bed and not allowing him through the doorfirst be damaging to them.

hugging and gushing over a dog who is afraid is damaging as it encourages the fear, justifies it and will not reassure your dog that your capable of the protection/leadership he needs.

this has all tumbled down in pieces for me as i have used these tecniques without fear or dominance just by leading by example making it clear what i want and rewarding accordingly I really cannot see how i am damaging anything based on this....but then i take nothing at face value i read and adjust and discard what i do not want if i feel it would damage any animal or put owners at risk.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

white said:


> i have tried all that and he is a 2 year old white german shepherd


 Do you make sure you take him on a long walk first and let him off to run like mad (not suring the hottest bits of the day in this weather though).
I can't imagine trying to keep a large young active breed of dog in a flat. You must spend all day just ensuring he gets proper exersize.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Speaking from experience, pack ranking methods do more harm than good. Using them to correct fearful behaviour will only result in a broken dog.
> 
> No you can't put human emotions on dogs, you are entirely right. And in the same vein you can't expect dogs to think you're a dog!
> 
> ...


 Thinking that pack heirachy is all about 'bullying' your dog is wrong and utter nonsense. I have a pack of 20 dogs and have treated them as a pack. One of them is my Twinkle a very badly abuse yorkie who came to me terrified. So scared was she that she'd void bladder and bowels if anyone tried to touch her, cower away and pee herself if a voice was raised. That isn't a good thing in this house as I am loud.
That was 2 years ago. Now, she is totally secure and happy, confident around anyone, including strangers and the other animals. Canids understand pack heirachy and no amount of fashion, modern thinking and fads, will change that. Don't decry what you don't understand.:bash:


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## Jo81 (Aug 4, 2008)

Our Border Collie used to be very distructive when left alone. Even in an empty utility room she'd scrabble and chew at the walls. We found giving her a 'Job' worked. She now searches and retrieves. A walk isn't just a walk anymore, it's a Job, her mind is always active so that even on those odd days when we're pushed for time and we only find 20mins for a walk, her mind is constantly stimulated and she's tired and ready to relax when she's home. We practice it in the house as well. now when she's left alone she just wants to sleep. 

We now also have a 6mnth old doberman pup, he's naughty at times but the constant traing and asking him for certain behaviours is quickly distracting him from the things we don't want him to do. I caught him tonight trying to take a chunk out of the corner of the sofa. He was reprimanded but then it launched strait into a 10min basic obedience lesson, sit, down, stay etc, all backed up with rewards. He sleeps seperatly to the collie, at night and when were out. the training never stops with him so when he's left alone, again, all he wants to do is sleep. he's too dopy to do search and retreive so we need to come up with a 'Job', a set roll in the pack for him but so far it's going well, he can be left alone, all be it in the kitchen, and is fine.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> Thinking that pack heirachy is all about 'bullying' your dog is wrong and utter nonsense. I have a pack of 20 dogs and have treated them as a pack. One of them is my Twinkle a very badly abuse yorkie who came to me terrified. So scared was she that she'd void bladder and bowels if anyone tried to touch her, cower away and pee herself if a voice was raised. That isn't a good thing in this house as I am loud.
> That was 2 years ago. Now, she is totally secure and happy, confident around anyone, including strangers and the other animals. Canids understand pack heirachy and no amount of fashion, modern thinking and fads, will change that. Don't decry what you don't understand.:bash:


Just cos it worked for you doesnt mean it'll work for all dogs. That is the point. And just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't make their points any less valid. Be a bit more polite when you post, there is no need for headbashing smileys when someone puts forward an interesting argument with sound information in it.

Dogs are not stupid, they do not think we're part of their pack. And pack rank theory is flawed in that no alpha dog goes through a door first or eats first - the training methods are based on WOLVES (not domesticated dogs) kept in captivity not even in their wild surroundings. It's old fashionned and may work for some dogs, but far from all.


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## meanvixen (Apr 8, 2008)

i was given the advice to get a giant kong toy, fill it with yogurt and freeze it, it keeps them busy for hours and i've never had any problems with chewing since. i have a 10 month old bullmastiff


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> Just cos it worked for you doesnt mean it'll work for all dogs. That is the point. And just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't make their points any less valid. Be a bit more polite when you post, there is no need for headbashing smileys when someone puts forward an interesting argument with sound information in it.


firstly, pack heirachy does work for all dogs. I gave one single example of how it worked. I have nearly 30 years of experience with literally scores of my own dogs aswell as other people's dogs which I could cite if I was so inclined.
I didn't say that your opinion was invalid, merely that I considered it misguided and nonsensical. If you think I was being impolite then you don't know me. I was just posting, that's all, not trying to win a popularity contest, win friends or gain kudos and admiration. Nor was I trying to be rude or insult people. Don't be so sensitive and see insult where none was intended.



> Dogs are not stupid,


indeed. And given some of the humans they belong to, it's a wonder they don't end up nuts.


> they do not think we're part of their pack.


of course not. They should know that they belong to my pack since I'm the boss.



> And pack rank theory is flawed in that no alpha dog goes through a door first or eats first


 oh yes they do. Any trainer will recommend that the humans eat first and don't allow the dog to precede them. Even Ms Stillwell.



> - the training methods are based on WOLVES (not domesticated dogs) kept in captivity not even in their wild surroundings. It's old fashionned and may work for some dogs, but far from all.


 Canids are canids. Millions of years of domesticity doesn't mean they have lost basic instincts. Just watch packs of feral dogs and how they behave in any city in the world and you'll understand it better.
Don't decy something you have no understanding of.
The theory of ignoring the bad and rewarding the good, simply would not work if you owed a pack of dogs.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> firstly, pack heirachy does work for all dogs.


Prove it. I can prove otherwise.



> I gave one single example of how it worked. I have nearly 30 years of experience with literally scores of my own dogs aswell as other people's dogs which I could cite if I was so inclined.


Go on then. Every single dog you've fixed with pack ranking please.



> I didn't say that your opinion was invalid, merely that I considered it misguided and nonsensical. If you think I was being impolite then you don't know me. I was just posting, that's all, not trying to win a popularity contest, win friends or gain kudos and admiration. Nor was I trying to be rude or insult people. Don't be so sensitive and see insult where none was intended.


You weren't even talking to me, I didnt see any insults to me, but to other people - everyone is entitled to an opinion, especially when it's backed up by experience and evidence, but without proof of that I'll have to agree to disagree.




> of course not. They should know that they belong to my pack since I'm the boss.


You can be the boss without pretending to be a dog. Doh.




> oh yes they do. Any trainer will recommend that the humans eat first and don't allow the dog to precede them. Even Ms Stillwell.


All trainers? Does Kathy? The trainers she's quoted? The trainers in that thread? Even Ian Dunbar changed his mind in the end.




> Canids are canids. Millions of years of domesticity doesn't mean they have lost basic instincts. Just watch packs of feral dogs and how they behave in any city in the world and you'll understand it better.
> Don't decy something you have no understanding of.


I do have an understanding of it. And as I understand it, it's rubbish (edited to remove word for male danglies).



> The theory of ignoring the bad and rewarding the good, simply would not work if you owed a pack of dogs.


You keep saying I have no understanding, but I've seen many dogs put to sleep because their owners believed this. What exactly do you think is going to happen if your dog eats before you? And does the dog see that as eating before you or eating 23 and a half hours after? 

Dont decry what I dont understand?

Kathy doesn't have internet access at the moment, but no doubt she'll reply when she does.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> Prove it. I can prove otherwise.


 Why should I have to prove it. If you don't want to do the research yourself, I'm not inclined to drip feed you the info.





> Go on then. Every single dog you've fixed with pack ranking please.


 Don't be peurile please.





> You weren't even talking to me, I didnt see any insults to me, but to other people - everyone is entitled to an opinion, especially when it's backed up by experience and evidence, but without proof of that I'll have to agree to disagree.


Believe what you want to believe, it makes no difference to me. If you choose to ignore basic knowledge and think that dogs arrived from a different planet or evolutionary scale to all other canids in the world, that's fine. You carry on. Just don't decry what you cannot comprehend.
I understand that there is something called the flat earth society where members truly believe that the earth is indeed flat. "There are none so blind as those who choose not to see."






> You can be the boss without pretending to be a dog. Doh.


See what I mean. You really think that humans have to pretend to be dogs in order to believe in pack heirachy. 'Doh' right back.






> All trainers? Does Kathy? The trainers she's quoted? The trainers in that thread? Even Ian Dunbar changed his mind in the end.


 Did I say all trainers?






> I do have an understanding of it.


well obviously you do not have an understanding of it if you believe it's all about bullying your dog and pretending to be a dog. How absurd is that?



> And as I understand it, it's rubbish


I rest my case.



> You keep saying I have no understanding, but I've seen many dogs put to sleep because their owners believed this


 go on then, elucidate. name case histories please.



> What exactly do you think is going to happen if your dog eats before you? And does the dog see that as eating before you or eating 23 and a half hours after?


 as stated before, do your own research, I am not going to drip feed you.




> Dont decry what I dont understand?


by jove she's got it!:lol2:



> Kathy doesn't have internet access at the moment, but no doubt she'll reply when she does.


 and what has Kathy to do with it?


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I don't agree with pack ranking techniques but we're all entitled to our own views and I find it interesting reading opposite experiences. I'm glad it's worked for Fenwoman, it didn't for me (that's an understatement, it turned a mildly fear aggressive dog into a terrified and highly dangerous liability) or for many dogs I've worked with since I learned more, so I can't back up her argument that it works on ALL dogs, but if it's worked for her then that's great isn't it. 

I maintain that whether we base a dog's behaviour on captive wolves or feral dogs, and whether you believe in a true alpha (I don't) then these behavours that we are supposed to mimic to act alpha aren't even genuine alpha behaviours. The owner going through doors first is good manners but it's not natural alpha behaviour. I also don't believe for a second that the dogs I've worked with are thick enough to see humans as dogs, although I'd be interested to read more on whether they accept humans as "pack members". I much prefer the view that they sit watching humans mimicking dogs thinking they're bloody idiots lol.

ETA: It would be interesting to me if Fenwoman or anyone else pro-pack ranking would read the article and discussions I posted and respond to them, as we can all learn from each other can't we?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

KathyM said:


> I don't agree with pack ranking techniques but we're all entitled to our own views and I find it interesting reading opposite experiences. I'm glad it's worked for Fenwoman, it didn't for me (that's an understatement, it turned a mildly fear aggressive dog into a terrified and highly dangerous liability)


 you have piqued my interest now. I m very interested to hear more about this, what the breed was, what caused the fear aggression and age, and what exactly was done by way of training to cause the aggression. Feel free to PM me if you would rather.




> or for many dogs I've worked with since I learned more, so I can't back up her argument that it works on ALL dogs, but if it's worked for her then that's great isn't it.


we can only work with whatever methods we understand and are comfortable with and which has desired results.



> I maintain that whether we base a dog's behaviour on captive wolves or feral dogs, and whether you believe in a true alpha (I don't) then these behavours that we are supposed to mimic to act alpha aren't even genuine alpha behaviours. The owner going through doors first is good manners but it's not natural alpha behaviour. I also don't believe for a second that the dogs I've worked with are thick enough to see humans as dogs, although I'd be interested to read more on whether they accept humans as "pack members". I much prefer the view that they sit watching humans mimicking dogs thinking they're bloody idiots lol.


 I have yet to see anyone suggest that a human has to pretend to be a dog in order to gain status.



> ETA: It would be interesting to me if Fenwoman or anyone else pro-pack ranking would read the article and discussions I posted and respond to them, as we can all learn from each other can't we?


will have a read later on when it's cooler and my brain cools down a bit :lol2:

Incidentally, and going a little bit OT, I was pondering pack heirachy yesterday as I was milking. That's my relaxation and thinking time as the job in hand is pretty boring and monotonous 
I was pondering it all and came to the conclusion that pack heirachy exists in most gregarious communal living species of animals, including people. I was thinking about people in fact and how some people are followers and some are leaders. How some (like myself) are more forceful or dominant, and others would always back down before someone who is more forceful, not from fear of getting thumped or any other physical violence, but purely because they are more submissive by nature.
There is not usually any need for me to get loud, or swear or become abusive when I want to get my way. I get quieter and more polite in fact, but my son says that my eyes say it all. In fact some scientific research I heard about recently, discovered that some people, mainly dominant characters, will not look away when they are wanting to dominate. A bit like an aggressive dog staring perhaps? Can't remember where I saw, heard or read about this but it was something to do with a study of human body language which is a subject which fascinates me. With dogs, most of the communication is non verbal, i.e. body language. I think someone came up with a figure of 90% body language to 10% verbal, while in humans it is the opposite. And if this is indeed true, it's a wonder dogs and humans ever learned to coexist happily.
A fascinating subject I think.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

this thread has 2 be a winde up, the OP has answered no Q's just keeps saying tried that, didnt work. sounds 2 me he/she cant be bothered training the dog just like he/she cant be bothered replying 2 peoples Q's, when people have kindly taken the time to reply.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Thanks for the reply Fenwoman, I shall do me best to answer your questions now, although I think most of our differences (eating and doors aside) are semantic. 



fenwoman said:


> you have piqued my interest now. I m very interested to hear more about this, what the breed was, what caused the fear aggression and age, and what exactly was done by way of training to cause the aggression. Feel free to PM me if you would rather.


Dog came to us roughly 6 months old, collie x greyhound/lurcher (more collie than anything, not really built like a lurcher). History of straying with other dogs long term. On arrival he had aggression issues towards cats and dogs, although on careful introduction to Lisa's dog he did eventually get on with her and this was very obviously fear aggression looking back on it. No other issues. 

Got in a behaviourist who was very pro pack ranking. Was advised this was a dog who wasn't capable of being alpha but was trying to be to protect us and was stressed by trying to be pack leader (load of tripe but I believed it at the time). I was advised to take various rank reduction measures - no dog upstairs, eat before dog, go through doors before dog, staring down dog if stared at, etc etc. Followed it to the T for months, dog became more and more nervous and dog aggressive when out, and developed aggression to nearly every moving object, including bees, flies, etc. To the point where if you had the curtains open he would lunge at the window and make his nose bleed butting it. Rank reduction methods made him more and more nervous, stressed and worked up. If I'd known what I was doing to him I'd have stopped but I kept getting told he was being "dominant". 

Bear in mind at this point I had no problematic dog experience - this was _before_ I started learning. We were basically advised to PTS or rehome as he had become a liability, so we thought (at the time) we did the right thing in rehoming him to someone with experience. If I'd had the experience I have now, it would've been just as hard but had a better outcome, of that I have no doubt. He was not a broken dog til after the rank reduction methods, he was only a bit scared of other dogs. This was never a "dominant" dog, it was a fearful one and I broke him following that advice. 




> we can only work with whatever methods we understand and are comfortable with and which has desired results.


Absolutely.



> I have yet to see anyone suggest that a human has to pretend to be a dog in order to gain status.


This is where my comment about semantics comes in. I strongly believe in leadership with dogs, I just don't believe in pack membership. I believe one can be a strong leader without pretending to be a pack member. 




> will have a read later on when it's cooler and my brain cools down a bit :lol2:


No worries, it's roasting here too and I've got the rat room to clean (boo hiss). 




> In fact some scientific research I heard about recently, discovered that some people, mainly dominant characters, will not look away when they are wanting to dominate. A bit like an aggressive dog staring perhaps? Can't remember where I saw, heard or read about this but it was something to do with a study of human body language which is a subject which fascinates me. With dogs, most of the communication is non verbal, i.e. body language. I think someone came up with a figure of 90% body language to 10% verbal, while in humans it is the opposite. And if this is indeed true, it's a wonder dogs and humans ever learned to coexist happily.
> A fascinating subject I think.


It is and if you can remember any names or the title I can look it up on PsychInfo/PsychArticles databases and find out for you, that's the joy of doing a Psychology degree.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> this thread has 2 be a winde up, the OP has answered no Q's just keeps saying tried that, didnt work. sounds 2 me he/she cant be bothered training the dog just like he/she cant be bothered replying 2 peoples Q's, when people have kindly taken the time to reply.


Worked that out the other day when they claimed to have had Victoria Stilwell on the case lol.


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## lilworm (Aug 11, 2007)

Ok I have to write this in word as the pc keeps crashing.

 I have read both links through and I am in shock that pack ranking or whatever you want to call it has focussed on alpha rolling and physical force i am really not happy about that.
  Now That to me has been twisted over time as when I started out it all about hands off and leading by example ignoring the bad where possible and rewarding the good, or positive re-enforcement

 When I read jans books and in not one chapter was physical force or any other form of violence was ever used and never recommended. She may have based her technique on pack dynamic but at the same time never advocated any physical touch, I cannot see how by leading by example being calm and in control can be damaging, surely it only encourage a dog to follow that positive forward calm body language, the thing they do understand.

 my friend and mentor is apdt and has been the best mentor one could have we share many an hour thrashing things out but has always said form your own opinion read about different metheods for yourself and dont be influenced by opinions of others without first researching for yourself regardless of who they are expert or friend or god. So I feel I have the balance of leading by example and reward based training. I have 5 hugely secure dogs here including the 2 that had serious issues that were manmade through ignorance, one fear based one well that was I can only say hormonal and learned behaviour. 
Not their fault. They are fine now and I never touched them or shouted or pushed pulled. I did once have to protect myself from an attack and no I did not see it coming and I did not ask for it, he was a new rescue been here a week and my earlier rescue came into season he was on the other side of the kitchen and when I went to get her out he flew across the kitchen and attacked me luckily I caught him stopped him from getting my face and my partner helped get him off and removed him outside, was a very big issue of resource guarding manmade as used as a stud and never socialised walked loved and never been taught anything so in his eyes a bitch in season was his and nobody elses, once we had finished training him to a safe standard and knew he had no underlying problems and he has stopped all guarding we castrated him as he was only to be a pet and the poor bugger his hormones were a torment to him. We did not castrate to fix any issues we addressed them all first and castrated last. but easy fix over time and with positive re-enforcement but other than that we were totally hands off.
 but anyways that is the past, we are live for the day family so the past is exactly where it should be I have no issue with socialisation, separation, no resource guarding they are open and friendly to all. 

 I can have 5 dogs and work without fear of them falling apart as I have taught them to hold their own be secure with them selves and each other and we walk for bloody miles. I Have even taken a stray off the street had to put her in the house and leave when my father fell ill, they accepted her readily without question. 
They do tricks but all this has been based on reward based training, if they got too excited I stop and ignored them until they settle thats practice leading by example.
I walk all 4 at once calmly by my side and been complimented ohh i like those compliments its great and the dogs love the attention too,

its my reward having people approach me and the dogs tell me how cool it looks to see tham all so calm and happy and my friends cannot believe the chow chow does tricks.

 I am upset that the techniques I use have me labelled as damaging my dogs.
 I truly do not understand why not allowing them through doors first and not allowing them on my bed or sofa and not allowing pulling on a lead or to jump on me or strangers to be damaging, also how can ignoring a dog be damaging, if done with common sense and good timing.

 I do lead by example my dog have to sit and wait for food and then get permission to eat , if passing an out of control dog my lot will naturally instinctively tune into that oncoming threat but I get them through it by walking straight past ignoring the threat they follow they can look but not act on it they follow my lead, I believe in body language and how that has such an effect on any given situation, I want my dog to leave the room I ask and if they ignore I look and point but I think "out now"! that usually is enough, once the dog has left the room I reward verbally.
 we play together and all cuddle up we have a fab releationship with trust and respect.

 I have seen what happens when already aroused dogs, fearful dogs get gushed over and a lot of the time this inappropriate attention escalates fear or the unwanted behaviour, but the same also stand for physical force which too is inappropriate unless a life is at risk then well human self preservation takes over I am not going to sit there trying offer rover beef when he is biting my face off! I will however get him off me and isolate him until he calms. And vice versa. Sometimes as a human we have to walk away and isolate ourselves until we get a grip on our own emotions.

 I feel there’s never any need for physical force in rehabilitating any animal this surely can be counter productive. just as trying to reassure verbally and animal that has no concept of reassurance is, dogs see it as a justification of their fear /aggression…how many time have you passed dog screaming on the lead only to have owner say “oh baby rover its ok that big wolf wont hurt you blah blah” and with each words the dog gets worse, sorry to me that more damaging than anything I do with my lot. 

 As they are re-enforcing the behaviour verbally and not teaching the dog to be secure in itself, by turning dog away moving forward and reward the quiet. 

 I was disappointed on the forum you linked too where someone mentioned jan said not to exercise the dog whilst training now there is something I do not agree with, walking is essential for mental health and a great way to form a bond with your dog/s great oppotunities to train.
 Now I read jans books 6 years ago and never ever read about force I only read lead by example reward good behaviour how to use treats to train and encourage good behaviour and ignore any negative behaviour. Unless she has suddenly got physical then no i would not in good heart be able to agree with that.
 I am upset that pack whatever and leadership now is associated with force and fear and that’s never what it was when I started out, not in my eyes anyways. 

I am inclined to agree the OP may have started the thread looking for a one word answer, then decided they bit off more that he could chew but this topic itself wiill be an informative one none the less.

Kathy M the trainer that advised you did you wrong as they did not address the fear at its root i can see that it was not dominance and i am glad you came through it although i would have still advised the no bed, door first, walking to heel, i feel that would have done no harm if the fear was also addressed with positive calm introductions, but not staring a dog down and i would have addressed the fear/agression with positive controlled experiance with rewards thats is the only way forward. but its about balance.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Just want to say that at no point have I said you're harming your dogs. I am very strongly against pack ranking methods but I do not make personal comments like that. What works for you works for you and that was never in question.

I didn't use any physical methods with the dog I wrote about before, I want to make that very clear. I did however use what I consider now as emotional bullying tactics - rank reduction techniques are in my humble opinion all about stripping a certain amount of confidence from a dog (the confidence often mislabelled as "dominance"). What happened to my dog can happen to any fearful dog that has these kinds of methods used on it. I never, not once, laid a finger on him or did any alpha rolls or any of the harsher side of rank reduction. That is not what broke him. 

I also want to make it clear that I don't believe in "gushing over" fearful dogs either, far from it. Nor did I then. If you pander to a dog's fear you basically tell it that they're right in being scared. Of course X is scary, cos mum is cuddling me when I cry/react/whatever. To be against rank reduction methods doesn't mean being _for_ what is considered the opposite. 

I strongly believe that the basis for a good working relationship with a dog is a strong bond and a lot of trust on both sides. I don't believe it's possible with bullying tactics, emotional or otherwise. However, I also don't believe in letting dogs walk all over you and not being a good leader. But I don't think you have to sacrifice a good relationship with a dog to be a good leader, that's all. :2thumb:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Thanks for the reply Fenwoman, I shall do me best to answer your questions now, although I think most of our differences (eating and doors aside) are semantic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


my thoughts are that the behaviourist wasn't fully au fait with the pack theroy. I personally would never advocate trying to outstare a dog. Can't see what this is suppose to achieve. Something you said towards the bottom also puzzled me as you say initially that he had aggression towards cats and dogs, but then that he was actually "only a bit scared" of other dogs. Out and out aggression has nothing to do with dominance. A dominant dog is rarely aggressive towards other pack members. It doesn't have to be as size, sex, body language etc will show less confident dogs that this is a natural leader. Aggression within a pack structure would actually weaken the pack's cohesion. Pack leader should not instill fear.Normally if a dog wants to atempt to gain higher status, or demonstrate to other dogs that he or she is dominant they may mount the other dog, or place a paw on it or pee last over the other dog's pee. Things like that.
I think the problem is that when pack heirachy became 'fashionable' lots of trainers learned the theory, got a dimploma and thought they understood it all. That is sadly not so. For any trainer to make pronouncement on status and heirachy within only a short time of meeting the dog, was incorrect.
Sadly the fixation on things like bees etc seems to be a collie 'thing' and I have known them to sit for hours watching wind chimes, shadows etc. One of mine had a foot fetish and would want to hold on to moving feet whether running, walking or cycling.






> This is where my comment about semantics comes in. I strongly believe in leadership with dogs, I just don't believe in pack membership. I believe one can be a strong leader without pretending to be a pack member.


a leader of what though? You have to be a leader of some kind of flock, pack, herd. Hence my referring to pack. If your behaviourist told you that you would have to pretend to be a dog then they are nuts. I do however regard myself as a pack member. They are my family, my pack. What other noun can I use for the lot of us living together in harmony?




> It is and if you can remember any names or the title I can look it up on PsychInfo/PsychArticles databases and find out for you, that's the joy of doing a Psychology degree.


 I'll wrack my brain to see if I can remember. I have a feeling it was a television programme but when and what programme escapes me for the moment.
There is a whole world of communication that us modern 'civilised' humans have forgotten about or don't know about, hence when we meet someone new, we can take to them, or not take to them on what we think is instinct but may well be as a result of subconcientiously reading body language. Hippies used to call it 'getting a vibe' off someone.
It's one of the down sides of the internet. Not only can people not see facial expressions but body language also and many a wrong impression has been gained because of it.
p.s. I can recommend walking about with a bag of ASDA smart price frozen peas on yer 'ead. Cools you right down it does. Obviously take them off if you are to go out and about in public, cos some other hot person may mug you for them :lol2:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Sorry, I didnt word that very well did I? When he came to me he had what I consider now to be minor fear aggression issues. They were in no way comparable to the issues he had after the "training". He was a dog that would avoid confrontation but if fearful would snap/snarl. He was very anti-cats when we got him but his dog issues were minor. At the end he was a dog that had learned he had to get in there first with lunging, headbutting barriers between him and any other animal, biting, redirected aggression, etc. All of his awake time revolved around this cycle of aggression, he could not calm down and he displayed other compulsive behaviours (tail chasing, fixation like you mentioned). He had what little confidence he had left stripped of him by me systematically putting him down. I am not convinced that there is a right way to treat fear issues in dogs with rank reduction methods. 

I think it's semantics again with the name pack, flock, etc. I can be in charge of my dogs and lead by example without me calling myself a "pack member", I don't really get that term without thinking that a person thinks their dogs see them as another dog. I am as much a pack member as they are my child lol. Dharma is my dog. I am her human. That's about it lol. I get where you're coming from, maybe we need a new collective cross-species noun!:lol2:

Pass the peas, I'm roasting...


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## lilworm (Aug 11, 2007)

please huni i never said you made any personal comments in regards to me and vice versa but yet I have been catagorised as an emotional bully not directly but the tatic i use are emotional bullying apparently.
I also never commented that you physically touched your troubled dog in any way and from your post i could never have come to a conclusion you would..
I was in fact supporting you and feel you were mis informed and by taciling the fear at the root in a positve calm way then i dont see how by you going through a door first and not allowing sleeping on the bed ect ect can be damaging, i certainly do not agree with staring a dog out! 

I do feel this pack thingy has been used negatively also no one can condone pinning or fear in any sense. its about leadership as already stated no leader using fear well not a good one anyways

but I feel labelled due to the opinion i emotionally bully my dogs by not allowing them on my bed or through the door first and not pulling on the lead no jumping up at people inc myslef (they do still do it though but that because the human greeting them is excited and it has a ripple effect so they are forgiven for that as the human created it first.), thats the only thing i do insist on unfortunately it seems that part of something called pack ranking or whatever emotional bullying call it what you will, 

like i stated i use many metheods i dont follow one gospel to the T but all my ways have been reward based training positive re-enforcement each dog trains differently i have 5 different personalities here but the foundation rule is no bed no pull no sofa unless invited, no first through the door. my dogs do lead when in harness and i trust them to do so safely they trust me to lead a walk its a balanced releationship of trust and respect that been earned on both sides.

I truly do not understand by not allowing it i am emotionally bullying my dogs.
its an emotive subject and each post reqiures careful reading as to avoid misunderstanding. 

I believe in leading by example i have more than one dog so they are classed as a pack i prefer rabble, I also truly believe you get back what you put in and all my dogs life have been positively reinforced in every aspect of their life with either food, touch or verbally, i just insist i go through a door first, that they sleep downstairs there bloody 5 of them the bed just aint big enough lol and lead walking is essential as we walk as a family i am only 5ft 3"

so please if by having these 3 simple hands off rules is bad for the emotional state of my dogs i need an alternative as yet one has not been offered.
Which ever way you cut it i am my dogs human leader we are a pack a family i dont play dog i play human and they respect me for that, I have studied educated myself just so it benifits my dogs but give my time freely to help anyone and would never put anyone or their dog in a position of danger. each case would depend on dog its issues and the mental state of the owner.

the dog in the OP is afraid no sorry terrified, i stated this from the outset i have never mentioned dominance in any post in regards to dogs and their many manmade problems dominance is another word use to frequently amd without forethought

i have worked hard to gain trust and respect from my dogs and contrary to belief i have done this without fear of violence or bullying.
I am open to alternatives as always but first i need explaining to me why by not allowing the above is emotionally damaging my dogs.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Sorry, I didnt word that very well did I? When he came to me he had what I consider now to be minor fear aggression issues. They were in no way comparable to the issues he had after the "training". He was a dog that would avoid confrontation but if fearful would snap/snarl. He was very anti-cats when we got him but his dog issues were minor. At the end he was a dog that had learned he had to get in there first with lunging, headbutting barriers between him and any other animal, biting, redirected aggression, etc. All of his awake time revolved around this cycle of aggression, he could not calm down and he displayed other compulsive behaviours (tail chasing, fixation like you mentioned). He had what little confidence he had left stripped of him by me systematically putting him down. I am not convinced that there is a right way to treat fear issues in dogs with rank reduction methods.


 I think the so called behaviourist was way off beam then from what you say and I would not have told you to do the stare etc.
There was no need to reduce his rank either. Such a fearful dog was already subordinate. If anything I would have advised to try methods to increase his confidence by letting him sleep on your bed etc before you worked on anything else.
See, 2 people subscribe to pack theory. The first made a mess of it, and the second contradicts what the first told you to do. We'll never know if I could have made a difference, but it goes to show that it wasn't the theory which was at fault, merely the person who thought they knew what they were doing.



> I think it's semantics again with the name pack, flock, etc. I can be in charge of my dogs and lead by example without me calling myself a "pack member", I don't really get that term without thinking that a person thinks their dogs see them as another dog. I am as much a pack member as they are my child lol. Dharma is my dog. I am her human. That's about it lol. I get where you're coming from, maybe we need a new collective cross-species noun!:lol2:


 hmmmm the Dorg? As in start trek the Borg? We will assimilate you.And if that don't work..we will assassinate you. (joke)



> Pass the peas, I'm roasting...


 peas all melted sorry but I think I have a bag of frozen spinach at the bottom of the freezer somewhere.:lol2:


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## Shelley66 (Feb 19, 2007)

Well I reckon if all else fails the op ought to give me the dog! I bring up my dogs in the same way as I brought up my kids, and they are extrememly well behaved.... And I am home ALL day


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Worked that out the other day when they claimed to have had Victoria Stilwell on the case lol.


is she that one that had her own tv program that looked like she should be going riding with a wipe :lol2:


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## lilworm (Aug 11, 2007)

yeah she has a distinctive dress sense :lolsign:


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

For what it is worth, I agree wholeheartedly with KathyM. 

I think people using the word 'pack' when talking about leadership in relation to dog behaviour and training causes confusion. I do think, to some degree, as dogs only understand 'doggy language' they need us to be a leader of sorts. However, I do not think that leadership is achieved by insisting you go through the door prior to your dog, or by not allowing your dog on your sofa/bed/upstairs or whatever, or by eating before your dog. We already hold all the resources the dog wants, food, water, walkies etc, so we are naturally a leader in the dogs eyes. Making sure your dog does not barge through a door before you is not re-inforcing to the dog that you are pack leader, it is teaching good manners, (if you wish to go through the door first) as it teaching it not to pull on the lead. Making sure you eat first is irrelevant. I have never known a behaviour problem be cured simply by the owner doing all those thinsg that are supposed to instill into your dog that you are 'pack' leader, and nothing else, yet is is suggested by pack theorists that the majority of behaviour problems are caused by the owner not being 'pack leader'. 

The real problems occur when people feel that in order to exert 'pack leadership' they must use physical or emotional force on the dog. Alpha rolls, pinning down and the like. The average owner using these methods is lucky to not get bitten at best. 

Dogs are pack animals, no-one disputes that. So it is not suprising that when left alone without being taut to stay alone, a dog would be likely to get distressed, and therefore likely to destroy or chew things, since if you're a dog, chewing releases endorphines which relax the dog.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

What do folks think of NILIF instead? Helping your dog want to work for it's dinner, so to speak. Reassures who's in charge without dominating or confusing.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

LisaLQ said:


> What do folks think of NILIF instead? Helping your dog want to work for it's dinner, so to speak. Reassures who's in charge without dominating or confusing.


 
I think the NILIF (Nothing In Life Is free for those who don't know, Nothing in Life is Free) approach works well, and that it is something those who are 'dog savvy' use without thinking about it. 

However, I disagree that dogs see the ability to gain attention as meaning they are 'alpha', personally I think they see it as simply a way to gain attention. For example, I allow my dogs to attention seek at times (they know that they can put their head or paw on me, and 50% of the time I will feel like petting them) but I wouldn't say they think they are 'alpha' over me. 

I think NILIF works because it is based on the dogs fundamental selfishness. It is doign what you want becaus eit gets something out of it. So, the dog sits, it's lead is put on, it can go for a walk. The dog sits, it's food bowl is put ont he floor. If the dog jumps all over the show, the food bowl remains withheld. The dog learns the quickest way to get the food bowl put down is to sit. 

That said, I think us humans spend far too much time thinking abotu why dogs do things or what dogs are thinking, instead of how to solve the problem. If a method works, and it is not about bullying or oppressing the dog, then what does it matter _why_ it works?


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

midori said:


> I think the NILIF (Nothing In Life Is free for those who don't know, Nothing in Life is Free) approach works well, and that it is something those who are 'dog savvy' use without thinking about it.
> 
> However, I disagree that dogs see the ability to gain attention as meaning they are 'alpha', personally I think they see it as simply a way to gain attention. For example, I allow my dogs to attention seek at times (they know that they can put their head or paw on me, and 50% of the time I will feel like petting them) but I wouldn't say they think they are 'alpha' over me.


I didnt know this part - I have to agree with you.

I've only ever had it explained to me in basic terms - eg. train your dog to understand in order to get fuss/treats he/she has to behave. We always make Blu sit before he gets fed, same for his toys, and he doesn't get fuss if he's forcing it (eg nudging us for a cuddle - not really a big deal with tidgy dogs, but an 82kg dane who's trying to force you to stroke him can be very strong!).

So I agree with the method, but not the theory.


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

oooo, so this is the dog you told me in pm you let run at people because hes 'ok' and because i dont like that im on of the people you despise, it sounds like you have complete control :whistling2:


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