# Huge forest vivarium with dart frogs!



## Venom83 (Oct 14, 2015)

Hi Everyone,

I have been doing alot of research into this project. But I think I'll need others points of view and opinions to get the best results for this. So, here we go. I am planning on building a huge Vivarium, very plant heavy! 8ft long, 4ft high, and 2ft deep! This is a project that has actually begun, so no going back haha. I'll start posting pics when I begin the build. 

But, I have a few questions. I know roughly how I will be making the background and what plants will be going in. But I am stuck on heating...

I'd like the temperatures to be sat at the 23 degree mark. So how would people go about this? The best I can come up with right now is a 500w Microclimate AHS heater. But obviously this comes with the problem of decreasing humidity, which I would try and counter with a rain system, and adding a decent sized waterfall worked into the background.

Any other ideas? 

Thanks, James. :no1:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi James.
You MUST post photo`s of this beast to show it off.
Can I ask where the tank will be situated ?
That can have a bearing on the heat which it will be kept at.
My vivs are all in my livingroom and are usually at or around 24C.
There is no heating in any of my vivs except for one which is my old marine aquarium.
The lights inside the hood keep it at a constant 30C and because of my having a pool in it humidity is always 100%.
I do have extractor fans which I can run if I want to and these take humidity down which is good for clearing the glass for viewing.


Mike


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## Venom83 (Oct 14, 2015)

Hello Mike, Cheers for getting back to me 

The viv is going to be built in the living room, but it is positioned on an outside wall. We live in an old cottage, so insulation in this place isn't the best. And the temps in this room can drop to about 17 degrees in winter when heating is not on.

The viv itself will have two 30w (36") Exo Terra Repti glo 2.0 UV Bulbs on the go at once, spanning almost the full length across the roof across the back.

The other idea was to have a 9 meter heat cable going round the bottom and top of the viv, along with a submersible heater so the water is also heated. Trying to keep it atleast 21-22 inside the viv.

So either way, I'm hoping one idea will work haha.

Good idea about the extractor fans, never thought about that! :2thumb:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I would put a sheet of polystyrene between the tank and the wall to keep any chill from the wall affecting the tank.
If the lamp are inside the hood, or inside the top of the tank like mine are then the heat will build up inside the tank.
Using lamps like Jungle Dawns although not waterproof they can generate heat inside the hood which will also heat the tank.
Winter time it should be okay to get a drop to 17C as long as it isn`t sustained, ie during the day as well.


Mike


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## Venom83 (Oct 14, 2015)

Polystyrene between the viv and wall is a great idea. Seems to be some good sizes in at wickes.

Yes, if all goes to plan everything should be inside the viv. 

I'll be using pond epoxy resin and aquarium silicone to seal everything on the inside. Then using expanding pond foam to build up the background, along with cork bark, branches and Rocks. So I'm hoping that much foam will also act as extra insulation also.

So, with that being said, and the lights on during the day (which i might even upgrade to two 40w (42") tubes). Do you think it might be worth a little extra with a 80w/9m heat cable around the top and bottom? Setting a pulse stat to about 22 degrees? Or do you think it wouldn't even mak a difference? It'd be easier to fit now I think, rather than waiting to see if I need to later on haha. Sorry for all the questions, I just want as many opinions as possible.

In the day we do have central heating on for a few hours in the morning and a few at night. And if things get to bad, the log burner goes on :2thumb:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I forgot to say earlier that I`ve seen tanks break due to heat cables. So care must be taken with them.
You also have to watch for the frogs getting burnt so they need to be covered carefully.
I only have my heating on for a short time in the morning to remove the chill and then I have it on again about teatime, and that seems to work fine.
If it gets too cold during the day (during winter) I adjust the timers accordingly.
If you already have your lights I`d wait and see how the temps are before doing any upgrades as it`s surprising how much heat comes from the tubes.


Mike


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Wow, this seems like an amazing project, cant wait to see progress photos!


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## Venom83 (Oct 14, 2015)

Hey Mike, I think after what you said, and everything I have been reading. The heating might be best left to the heat output of the lighting, and the ambient temps of the living room. baring in mind the living room did get up to 32 degrees a couple of days this year! Fans are going to be a must I think.

You can count on it wingnut  Once I begin, I'm going to be snapping shots as I go, so everyone gets to see what to do, and more to the point, possibly what NOT to do haha.

I did have one other idea. Now hear me out, it might sound a bit bonkers :whistling2:

What do people think to the idea of a cross species Madagascan biome type set up?

Do you think the enclosure would be big enough/suitable enough to house maybe two species of Mantella, aswell as maybe a pair of satanic leaf tail geckos? I have been reading up on the temps and humidity requirements, and they seem like a pretty good match. But the big question is, would they tolerate each other in that enclosure?

Was trying to research possible compatibility of small lizards with dart frogs for an amazonian set up, but nothing really looked close to being suitable.

Thanks for any input :2thumb:


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## Venom83 (Oct 14, 2015)

Hi Mike, after what you told me, and from what I have been reading, I think I'll take your advise. Hopefully, if it ever gets to cold in here, the central heating and log fire should keep ambient temps at a good level.

Hi Wingnut! No problem  I'll be posting a bit of a "step by step" photo blog. The ups and downs and the does and DO NOT does.

So, I do have controversial question... Mixing species! What are peoples views on this? Last night I was looking into what it would take to create a Madagascan Biome type set up. I was wondering, what are peoples thoughts on having two small groups of mantella, along with maybe a pair of satanic leaf tail geckos? With the size of the enclosure, and the very similar temp and humidity needs, I was thinking this might be really cool? With the biggest question being, will they tolerate each other? Any thoughts on this?

I did look into doing the same thing with the dart frogs, but couldn't find any appropriate lizards that might work well with those guys for an amazonian biome set up.

Please feel free to say why this would/would no be a good idea : victory:


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## Brendan01 (Jun 29, 2010)

I'm looking forward to seeing the progress on this one! It's not often someone attempts such a large enclosure! Good luck with it mate & keep us updated!


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## Venom83 (Oct 14, 2015)

Cheers buddy  Its going to be quite an undertaking thats for sure. Went to B&Q Yesterday and got a few bits. I'm hoping the putting together of the viv will start within the next few weeks.

Sorry about the double post, the first didn't work, so wrote something out again haha.


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Not got any experience with mixing species myself, but on a large scale like this it would look amazing.

This is just an idea as I have recently got back from Costa Rica and have seen all of these species directly next to each other so I know they share habitat but how it would work I have no idea but the 4 species are: 
Green Anole (Anolis biporcatus)
Auratus Dart frog (Dendrobates auratus)
Blue Jeans dart frog (Oophaga pumilio)
Red Eye Tree Frog (Agalychnis callidryas)
Like I say I am not saying this would work but a consideration, perhaps some of the other guys would be better placed to highlight any issues. Would look bloody good though.

Marc.


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## Venom83 (Oct 14, 2015)

hey Marc! If I could manage top maintain these species in the same space, I would be over the moon! Imagine how that would look! and sound! haha :flrt: The dart frogs and the Agalychnis callidryas seem relativity easy to come by, Slight margin in temps I noticed, but only by a couple fo degrees, I wonder if the Agalychnis callidryas would be ok with 2 degress lower? Those particular anoles seem near impossible to find from breeders and shops haha. Have you ever seen any for sale? If I could manage this, it would be amazing!


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Venom83 said:


> hey Marc! If I could manage top maintain these species in the same space, I would be over the moon! Imagine how that would look! and sound! haha :flrt: The dart frogs and the Agalychnis callidryas seem relativity easy to come by, Slight margin in temps I noticed, but only by a couple fo degrees, I wonder if the Agalychnis callidryas would be ok with 2 degress lower? Those particular anoles seem near impossible to find from breeders and shops haha. Have you ever seen any for sale? If I could manage this, it would be amazing!


TBH I haven't really looked but would thought they could be traced from someone. I know a lot of Anolis caolinensis are available but don't know how much the requirements vary, I have heard a majority of these are WC though although I have seen some CB available. I would have thought with the size of the tank you are planning you could get a decent gradient of heat anyway. Maybe put a small heat source toward one end? ( don't know if that would work) A lot to think about and i'm very, very jealous.

P.S what about some millipedes?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Mixing species can be fraught with problems.
I wouldn`t put tree frogs with dart frogs or you might find the tree frogs one morning with large tummies.
Also there is a risk of them eating small lizards.
Tree frogs generally need higher temps than dart frogs as well.
I know why you want to do it and can`t blame you for thinking like that, but I can`t think of any plus points.


Mike


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

frogman955 said:


> Mixing species can be fraught with problems.
> I wouldn`t put tree frogs with dart frogs or you might find the tree frogs one morning with large tummies.
> Also there is a risk of them eating small lizards.
> Tree frogs generally need higher temps than dart frogs as well.
> ...


Ah there we go. I supposed seeing them together in the same habitat is a lot different to them all being in direct contact with each other. Even as a single species tank it would be interesting to watch the group dynamics.


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## Venom83 (Oct 14, 2015)

Thanks for the input guys  i knew it was going to be a long shot, just got dreaming I guess haha. I think I'll stick with the dart frogs. Its just case of which species... Its going to have to be something with alot of 'WOW' factor. Any suggestions?

A few of my favorites are:
_Excidobates mysteriosus
__Ranitomeya (__lamasi) sirensis
__Dendrobates auratus _'Blue & Black'
_Dendrobates auratus _'Costa Rica' 
_Dendrobates leucomelas
__Oophaga pumilio _'Blue Jeans' 
_Ranitomeya amazonica _'Iquitos'
_Ranitomeya vanzolinii

_Because I am New to Dart frogs, is there any others that people would recommend? :no1:


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

I'm new to darts as well, only have had mine for about a month.
I have two Dendrobates tinctorius 'azureus'. 

Good luck deciding, took me ages!


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## Venom83 (Oct 14, 2015)

Totally forgot about the tinctorius azureus! awesome looking things! As someone new to dart frogs, how are you finding it? easy enough to care for? feeding easy enough? The one thing at the back of my head is the "I can't find these tiny frogs in this huge space" problem haha. I'll be hoping to pick up atleast 4-6 of what ever species I go for, that make makes things a bit better for spotting them.


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

It's great. I put a lot of work into it but have made some mistakes. I used an exo style viv and it still leaks fruit flies after the mods so have a new viv from DMS being delivered Sunday so technically starting again. I have more than enough fruit flies but I took a while to get that cracked before they came.
They are still quite shy but are starting to come out more and more. The bug has certainly hit!


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

This is the problem with having large vivs, What do you put in them to fill them up.
If you put several Tincs in you might get away with it because there`s plenty of room for them to get away from each other.
Female Tincs normally fight with each other leading to only one outcome.
You can of course get frogs with live happily in groups, but this may not be what your after.
Terribs and Leucs are the first to come to mind.
You are going to have to do a lot of thinking about it before making your final decision.


Mike


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## Venom83 (Oct 14, 2015)

Hey marc, great stuff! By the sounds of it, and the looks, it seems if you get a few dart frogs, the collection only grows from there haha. Hope it keeps going well for you buddy! Hey Mike, without a doubt, this would be the biggest problem. I mean, Primarily, I was looking forward to having a small piece of jungle, densely populated with all types of plant, as much as the animals themselves. The only other way I would like to maybe go, is clown tree frogs. Who also require similar temps/humidity. This might be a good way to go possibly. I'm going to keep to my set up ideas, and see what might be the best outcome after the viv is finished. I equally like the darts and the clown tree frogs. Both have there pros and cons I think.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Well I don`t know much about tree frogs so won`t comment on how they`d do.
What I have visions of is along the lines your already thinking..
I`ve seen vivs in the past planted up to resemble a small part of the jungle.
The trick here is to remember that in real life you won`t have say for example 20 square feet of forest with 20 frogs jumping around.
You could quite easily plant it up as your thinking and maybe having plants resembling miniature trees for example or tree trunks/roots and vines with plenty greenery to give that dense jungle look.
With the correct lighting you could have a nice carpet of moss growing in a nice sized open space in the centre of the viv for viewing the frogs.
So picture that mini jungle as you look through the side of the tank.
Now, lets go back to what I said about the amount of frogs you`d find in a given area of jungle.
You have visitors and your showing off your big display tank and they all crowd around it to see your animals.
Oh I`ve got some tree frogs you say and spend ages looking for them, but they`re all asleep on the underside of a leaf at the back of the tank. Ok you think that fell flat.
Your visitors ask what else have you got in there.
Oh I`ve got some Leucs.
Oh there`s one, and there`s another, oh and look here`s another one over there.
What I`m trying to say is.
Concentrate on making your viv stunning, but think carefully about whats going in it.
I`m not on about mixing frogs here as that will open the proverbial can of worms and spoil the thread.
The fact is that tree frogs are nocturnal so won`t come out till lights out.
Dart frogs come out in daytime.
But I think it would look pretty cool with just a handful of frogs with colours that would stand out in a large tank, especially a densely planted one.
Yellow would be my first choice bringing me back to Leucs or yellow Terribs.
The Leucs would use the whole viv so would often be spread out.
Terribs would also use the whole viv but often like to congregate in open areas making them easy to see.
Now I`m going to crack open that can of worms and take a back seat.
Terribs won`t cross breed with Leucs or other Tincs, but I also don`t know how they`d get on together even though they have similar viv requirements.
I wouldn`t keep Leucs with Tincs because of the cross breeding thing but maybe Terribs and say Azureus or Patricias or something like that would get on.
Hopefully you can visualise what I`m saying above about the tank design.
Plenty plants etc and just a smattering of frogs to give some "movement" in the background.


Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

James, I concur with Mike about a layer of insulation with the outside wall, I heat a room not a viv so my knowledge on heating is somewhat limited for the individual basis. 

I'd speak to stnic666(his sig befuddles me mate it might by written wrong),but tis close enough you'll find him if you go Malagasy.

I keep S American darts nowt else


James with what I have under my belt dart wise I'd go large oophaga for this viv, I have many reasons and without doubt the same cannot apply to you yet as they are regarded as somewhat tricky,not a frog to cut ya teeth on. But it's about size and what happens when they breed.

Mate it's incredibly difficult to appraise viv size and behaviour,to most of us an 8.long viv is huge right ,we can stock it with beasties in proportion to what we do with the smaller vivs we more oft use. Rob Melancon built this monster walk in viv and the frogs reverted to more natural territory rates,basically he struggled with two males if I recollect correct
But even if the number is wrong stocking density governed by the frogs behaviours was incredibly low is one based it on a per sq foot basis,to what one would think,with the way most of us keep darts.

Honestly, I'd probably go single species with this one and try to build out something that might be as close as they get to where they live in the wild in let's face it, a small glass box. Cor that would be fun!1 

James, don't underestimate how much joy how much behaviour how much goes on in a visible diurnal dart frog's head: what i'm trying so ineptly to convey is because the viv is big by hobby terms it isn't in the real world and there is much to be learned from one set of/one species/ morph in a viv like you are building. I'd go for one species that grabs the hell out of you,reading about their different ways of rearing their young might or might not be part of this,but do research this. 

Darts are a bewildering group of animals to me, frankly, I think you have a lot going on already to summount,but darts do occur together in the wild if I was set on mixing (I'm not terribly ,but I'm fairly simple:2thumb it's musing this niche which would be the focus of my research and maybe frog choices. But it's a tough one because I know exactly where I would go and I'm trying to post for you and not let that side in too much.

It's a simple philosophy: "try ya best to build to a frog" it seems to work though,that's where I'd guide you bro,but it's your viv,:2thumb:

I'm sure as hell gonna watch what you do.:mf_dribble::mf_dribble:
Have fun mate graft slow graft hard

bring it on

Stu

Hammer the hell out of culturing alongside the pondering James be good


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

soundstounite said:


> James, I concur with Mike about a layer of insulation with the outside wall, I heat a room not a viv so my knowledge on heating is somewhat limited for the individual basis.
> 
> I'd speak to stnic666(his sig befuddles me mate it might by written wrong),but tis close enough you'll find him if you go Malagasy.
> 
> ...


Interesting post that Stu. Thanks :2thumb:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ha one of my mad ramble's Marc:lol2: ahh you are utterly welcome mate,

Always remember though that I'm no expert,just learning da ropes,4 or so years in ! 

Buddy i'm doing some digging for you I think you might find reading Rob's thread very interesting,I won't go further here and derail James' thread,but if things go well I'll shoot ya a PM


take care mate

Stu


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## Sal123 (Oct 18, 2015)

This should be amazing. What are your plans for humidity?


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