# Ok another, what will I get(ish)



## kodisbabe (Jul 29, 2009)

Ok I have a creamsicle female and before I got her she was either mated to a Ghost stripe het amel or a miami.
Well so far I have had 3 snowsicles (although 1 is really pink the others are white) 2 rootbeers, 1 creamsicle (although it is really pink/coral/red colour with a lot of white in the back half looks like an opal (the back half that is).
Ive been playing around with the calc but cannot get the right combos, but then again I done it basing the creamsicle as an amel. And not quite knowing what the 2 are.

Thanks any help


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## knotism037 (Apr 6, 2009)

Are the one's you've listed what has hatched? The post confused me. :blush: But I will answer it as well as I understood. :no1:


From what it seems it would have been with the ghost and the creamsicle would also be het anery. There is a chance that the Miami could have been the partner but not as likely as it is the ghost. You also have a chance of getting anery rootbeers as well as what you already have. 


Sorry if I didn't answer what you wanted.:blush::lol:


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

kodisbabe said:


> Ok I have a creamsicle female and before I got her she was either mated to a Ghost stripe het amel or a miami.
> Well so far I have had 3 snowsicles (although 1 is really pink the others are white) 2 rootbeers, 1 creamsicle (although it is really pink/coral/red colour with a lot of white in the back half looks like an opal (the back half that is).
> Ive been playing around with the calc but cannot get the right combos, but then again I done it basing the creamsicle as an amel. And not quite knowing what the 2 are.
> 
> Thanks any help


It is quite likely that the Miami could be het amel and anery. 
(many normals tend to be het for one or the other or both)

The offspring you have don't give any clues as to which snake was the father.

What they have done is 'proven' that your creamsicle is het anery.

When the whole litter is out, we can look at the ratios offspring and that might give us clues, but due to neither male being visual for the same traits as the mother, it is not possible to 'prove' the dad (i.e. if one male was visual amel and you got a youngster that wasn't amel you would prove the other (non-amel) was the father.)



If you breed two of the offspring together and a stripe comes up in the resultant litter it will certainly suggest that the father (grandfather) was the ghost stripe, though it wouldn't prove it (possible the Miami is het stripe and you picked two offsrping that happened to carry it (if Miami was het stripe, all offspring would be 50% het stripe!)


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

kodisbabe said:


> Ive been playing around with the calc but cannot get the right combos, but then again I done it basing the creamsicle as an amel. And not quite knowing what the 2 are.


A creamsicle corn has a pair of amelanistic mutant genes and has a Great Plains rat snake among its ancestors. An amelanistic corn has a pair of amelanistic mutant genes but does not have a Great Plains rat snake among its ancestors.


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## kodisbabe (Jul 29, 2009)

Thanks everyone,
How has it proven the creamsicle is het anery?

The whole lot have hatched (not been on here for a while)
rootbeer x 4
snowsicle x 6
and possibly candy canes (ive been looking into it more and creamsicle x miami makes candys and looking at photos they look like that) x 5

So any more ideas?

Thanks


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

kodisbabe said:


> Thanks everyone,
> How has it proven the creamsicle is het anery?
> 
> The whole lot have hatched (not been on here for a while)
> ...


 
It proves the creamsicle is het anery because you produced snowsicles. A snowsicle is a visual anery AND a visual albino rootbeer in the same animal. As you have produced 'visual anerys' then BOTH parents *have to* carry at least one copy of anery. As the creamsicle parent is not visually anery is MUST be het for anery.


As stated before, it is impossible to prove which animal is the father with this particular pairing as the offspring of either animal will be *visually* exactly the same and it is the hidden genes of the offspring that will be different. HOWEVER we can mathematically decide which is more likely!



Basically (!)

creamsicle x miami

expected offspring = 100% rootbeer het creamsicle

but if the Miami is het anery and amel and the creamsicle is het anery (which is the only way you can get the litter you got AND have the miami as the dad) then you should get:

creamsicle het anery x miami het anery het amel

37.5% creamsicle 66% poss het anery
37.5% rootbeer het creamsicle poss het anery
12.5% anery het creamsicle
12.5% snowsicle

The probability of getting your litter (4 roots, 6 snows, 5 creams) compared to the expected litter ('5.625' roots, '5.635' creams, '1.875' anery, '1.875' snows) is 0.0094 (or approx 1 in 1000)






If the ghost was the father:

creamsicle het anery x hypo anery stripe het amel

25% rootbeer (het anery hypo stripe poss het creamsicle)
25% creamsicle (het anery hypo stripe)
25% anery (het hypo stripe poss het creamsicle)
25% snowsicle (het hypo stripe)


4: 5: 0 : 6 against 3.75 : 3.75 : 3.75 : 3.75 gives a probability of 0.1367 (or less than 1 in 7)



Therefore, the MOST LIKELY father is the ghost stripe, however you will only PROVE this by breeding on of the youngsters back to the ghost stripe. If you get stripes or ghosts then you have proven (at least beyond reasonable doubt) that the ghost was the father.



Unfortunately, because you do not know who the father was you CAN NOT sell the offspring as anything except rootbeers, creamsicles and snowsicles. You can state the roots are het creamsicle, as that came from mom, but you CAN NOT sell the offspring as 'poss het anery/hypo/stripe' or anything similar as the above probability is just that.

You could however, put them up for sale and link to this thread!






Finally the will NEVER be 'candy canes' in the litter. A candycane is a selectively bred *corn snake* and NOT a selectively bred creamsicle. You have hybrids and as such they will just be high white creamsicles regardless of how closely they look like pictures of other similiar snakes!

: victory:


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## kodisbabe (Jul 29, 2009)

Cool thanks bothrops, I'm getting the hang of it slowly but with hybrids I have not got a clue. But what I don't get is that as you say the creamsicle is anery and the ghost is obviously anery why did I not get any anery's out? This is why I've been thinking the father was the miami?
So confused lol


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

kodisbabe said:


> Cool thanks bothrops, I'm getting the hang of it slowly but with hybrids I have not got a clue. But what I don't get is that as you say the creamsicle is anery and the ghost is obviously anery why did I not get any anery's out? This is why I've been thinking the father was the miami?
> So confused lol


Purely chance. There was a 1 in 4 chance of each egg being anery and NOT creamsicle. You just happened to miss those odds.

In reality you DID get 'aneries' but all the aneries you got were ALSO creamsicle and so they are called 'snowsicles'.

If the father was the miami you need both het anery AND het amel to be present to get 'snowsicles'.


Remember snowsicles are a combination of anery and creamsicle in the same animal so in order to get a snowsicle, BOTH parents MUST carry anery.


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## kodisbabe (Jul 29, 2009)

Cool thank you I'm getting it very slowly :blush:


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## kodisbabe (Jul 29, 2009)

Ok...One of the orange creamsicles (I have some orange and some red does that make a difference to what it is?) that I got from this pairing has a zig zag pattern on it, its the only one in the whole clutch with this where would that have come from. And if I breed her back to my ghost stripe what would I get then?

Also I have a clutch just hatching out from my other creamsicle (this one is a partial zig zag) and was paired with the ghost stripe so far 4 of the heads look like snows and theres 19 eggs in the clutch.

Thanks again in advance


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

Very interesting (and a little confusing) thread! 

Might I just ask....... bring on the photos! I love corn snakes and would love to see what you're talking about :2thumb:


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## kodisbabe (Jul 29, 2009)

I have literally just posted some pics of some of mine under pic heavy - what morphs:2thumb:


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

kodisbabe said:


> Ok...One of the orange creamsicles (I have some orange and some red does that make a difference to what it is?) that I got from this pairing has a zig zag pattern on it, its the only one in the whole clutch with this where would that have come from. And if I breed her back to my ghost stripe what would I get then?


Looking at the pics the difference between the 'reds' and the 'oranges' is nothing but natural variation.

The same is true for the abberant pattern. You may find that abberant parents are more likely to produce abberant babies but it is purely chance and not a simple 'morph' like amel or stripe.

In terms of breeding back to the ghost stripe, what you will get will be entirely dependent on who the father of this clutch was (the offspring from the pairing though will confirm who the parent was!). However, the aberant pattern will have absolutely no effect on the stripe mutation as they are not connected.




kodisbabe said:


> Also I have a clutch just hatching out from my other creamsicle (this one is a partial zig zag) and was paired with the ghost stripe so far 4 of the heads look like snows and theres 19 eggs in the clutch.
> 
> Thanks again in advance


If you have snows you have proven that the creamsicle is 100% het anery (has to be to produce homozygous anery animals) and that the ghost stripe is 100% het amel.

If you get any stripes at all in teh litter then the creamsicle is 100% het stripe. If you get any motleys at all then the creamsicle is het motley. If you get both motleys _and_ stripes then either,

a) your creamsicle is het stripe and your ghost stripe is actually a ghost motley het stripe

or 

b) your creamsicle is het motley and your ghost stripe is actually a ghost motley het stripe


Gotta love genetics hey!?:whistling2::2thumb:


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## kodisbabe (Jul 29, 2009)

bothrops said:


> Looking at the pics the difference between the 'reds' and the 'oranges' is nothing but natural variation.
> 
> The same is true for the abberant pattern. You may find that abberant parents are more likely to produce abberant babies but it is purely chance and not a simple 'morph' like amel or stripe.
> 
> ...


Cool so both creamsicles are het anery thats cool to know. My ghost male is def a stripe.


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