# West Midlands Reptile Show Is ON



## JamesJ

Just a quick update to let you guys know the show is still ON, despite anything you might hear saying otherwise. 

The show is a members event and membership comes with entry for no extra charge, we will just need your name, DOB and email when you arrive, you will then recieve your membership card there and then.

Animals are allowed to be sold between members / hobbyists, so there is NO commercial sale of animals which is illegal.



Heres some more show info incase any of you need it:

VENUE: Kidderminster Glades Arena
Wyre Forest Glades
Bromsgrove Street,
Kidderminster,
Worcestershire,
DY10 1PP

Time: 11am - 5pm

Entry cost: £3.50 Adults (16+)
£2.00 12-15 years old
Under 12's free

Disabled Access and Toilets.

Parking situated right outside the arena.
This is a pay & display car park, we have tried to get around this but with no luck.
Here is a list of the parking charges for the large pay & display carpark right outside the Glades.
Up to 1 hour 70p
Up to 2 hours £1.00
Up to 3 hours £1.80
Over 3 hours £3.50

See you all Sunday!


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## excession

Looking forwards to coming! Really excited about it now.


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## Captainmatt29

I'm really looking forward to it, really impressed with how things have gone so far


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## SNAKEWISPERA

For people selling do we need to check if the people are members, Or will everyone be made a member, even after the doors are opened?
Nice to see the show going ahead, They cant stop us :lol: 

Joel.


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## Zak

They wont stop us AT ALL, seriously the press have turned this into a shambles and the APA are trying everything they can to stop this. As we are now issueing memberships during the day to people it is a private event. We can refuse entry and membership to anyone we believe not fit to look after animals.


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## JamesJ

Everyone over 16 who enters will have to sign up as a member on entry (only need name, DOB and email), under 16's cant buy animals anyway so thats not a problem. 

All breeders who dont currently have a membership card will be issued one on the day. 

I think we we going to ask breeders to check cards on the day to cover everyone, we will hold a meeting with breeders on the day before doors open to make final arrangements as to what will work best.


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## SiUK

this bears an uncannyresemblance to what happened with the Exeter show


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## Zak

Maybe its because the same people keep trying to throw a spanner in the works.


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## slidersiren

Yey! Am really looking forward to it. I noticed that International Animal Rescue have changed there homepage and have put up a letter from the Council to Raving Reptiles - 

http://www.internationalanimalrescue.org/media/downloads/wyreforestcouncil-letter.pdf

It says that 'under no circumstances can any trade or exchange of animals take place.' 

IAR is saying the Council's position hasn't changed and that no trading will be alowed. Has this letter been withdrawn or is there something in writing from the council saying that breeders can now sell to members as IAR claims that this would be illegal. I want to wave the new council letter in there faces!!


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## KeepTheFaith

Zak said:


> Maybe its because the same people keep trying to throw a spanner in the works.


It makes me laugh how ill informed these people are and it seems petty-ness is second nature to them, oh well ROLL ON SUNDAY where my self being a bad person for keeping reptiles will let my wallet burn!


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## slidersiren

Can one of the organisers post the letter on here to shut them up. We need to show them whose boss!!!!!!


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## Captainmatt29

It's funny that says commerical so whats the problem lol


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## Captainmatt29

They are also trying to stop hamm

International Animal Rescue : Dedicated to the rescue and rehabilitation of suffering animals : Media


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## SiUK

messengermatt said:


> They are also trying to stop hamm
> 
> International Animal Rescue : Dedicated to the rescue and rehabilitation of suffering animals : Media


if were all honest though, Hamm could do alot to improve the show in regards to animals.


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## slidersiren

Just spoke to my sister-in-law who is a solicitor and she says that according to this letter no sales can take place even hobbyist sales. But presumably the new letter overrides this?? IAR say that wrong advise was mistakenly given out by the council and we have nothing in writing. we do have something in writing from the council that says we can buy and sell don't we?


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## SiUK

slidersiren said:


> Just spoke to my sister-in-law who is a solicitor and she says that according to this letter no sales can take place even hobbyist sales. But presumably the new letter overrides this?? IAR say that wrong advise was mistakenly given out by the council and we have nothing in writing. we do have something in writing from the council that says we can buy and sell don't we?


see this is what happened with the Exeter show, there was loads of uproar about what could and could not happen, but in the end they were told that people could be prosecuted for selling animals and at the last minute, the night before in fact the plug got pulled.

It all seems like a grey area, somebody needs to clarify it completely.


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## Captainmatt29

SiUK said:


> if were all honest though, Hamm could do alot to improve the show in regards to animals.


True but this is what they are going to use in their defence to the UK shows too

And they harp on about WC's which we dont sell in this coutry that often, it also goes in to say that places like hamm are banned in the UK, so how does doncaster do it lol they are such asses


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## SiUK

arnt the big reptile shows affiliated with the FBH though? The organiser of the Exeter show was going to do exactly what you guys are planning with the membership but it wasnt enough apparently.


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## Aquilus

Or go ahead with sales anyway, and throw down a 'put up or shut up' demand with regards to the (empty, from the reading of the legislation) threats to prosecute.


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## jav07

messengermatt said:


> True but this is what they are going to use in their defence to the UK shows too
> 
> And they harp on about WC's which we dont sell in this coutry that often, it also goes in to say that places like hamm are banned in the UK, so how does doncaster do it lol they are such asses


 because the I.H.S is very well established as a society:lol2:


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## Zak

slidersiren said:


> Just spoke to my sister-in-law who is a solicitor and she says that according to this letter no sales can take place even hobbyist sales. But presumably the new letter overrides this?? IAR say that wrong advise was mistakenly given out by the council and we have nothing in writing. we do have something in writing from the council that says we can buy and sell don't we?


Yes the council have just forward me a draft press statement, i will enclose the full press statement on here as soon as i get it.

It confirms in writing from the council


> that the hobbyists attending the event are permitted to sell or exchange animals between themselves, including selling off excess stock.


A hobbyist in this instance is defined as someone who does not own a pet shop license, is dealing in captive bred animals and is a member of the West Midland Reptile Society. Everyone wanting to enter the venue will be given a form to fill in to become a member of the society. If they refuse to become a member entry will be prohibited as it is a private event.


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## Captainmatt29

jav07 said:


> because the I.H.S is very well established as a society:lol2:


Yes but they are saying that it doesnt matter what society or organisation you are they are going to make the effort to stop them all, they even plan to stop Doncaster in september too.


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## Captainmatt29

Zak said:


> Yes the council have just forward me a draft press statement, i will enclose the full press statement on here as soon as i get it.
> 
> It confirms in writing from the council
> 
> A hobbyist in this instance is defined as someone who does not own a pet shop license, is dealing in captive bred animals and is a member of the West Midland Reptile Society. Everyone wanting to enter the venue will be given a form to fill in to become a member of the society. If they refuse to become a member entry will be prohibited as it is a private event.


That's good news, a letter like that will be perfect and will also protect you as a society aswell from the eveil do'ers


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## jav07

messengermatt said:


> Yes but they are saying that it doesnt matter what society or organisation you are they are going to make the effort to stop them all, they even plan to stop Doncaster in september too.


 making an effort and succeeding are two differnt things,fairly certain that the organisers have gone through what is legal and what isnt with a fine tooth comb


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## slidersiren

Nice one!! Its vital that we get something in writing...


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## Kev132

would be interested in going to this, aswell as the IHS meeting at west mids safari the day before... anyone know any cheap BnB's or have space for a couple of little un's ? :lol2:


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## Brads31

NOT SURE WHATS GOING ON HERE IM NEW TO THIS SITE AND ALSO LIVE IN WEST MIDS AND WOULD LOVE TO COME TO THE SHOWS CANT UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO STOP THEM IM ASUMING ITS BECAUSE OF THE SALE OF CAPTIVE BREAD ANIMALS I WOULD JUST LIKE TO SAY IS THIS NOT BETTER THAT IMPORT AND ATLEAST YOU KNOW WERE ITS COME FROM ALSO YOU LOT ON HERE SEEM TO HAVE ALOT MORE EXPERIANCE THAN ALOT OF SHOP KEEPERS I HAVE SPOKEN TO ALSO YOU CAN BUY FROM OTHERS IN PAPERS AND ONLINE SO WERES THE PROBLEM WITH ALL THIS SOME THINGS I HAVE PUT MAY-BE WRONG BUT HELL I WANT TO GO TO ONE OF THESE SHOWS :2thumb:


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## Zak

Brads31 said:


> NOT SURE WHATS GOING ON HERE IM NEW TO THIS SITE AND ALSO LIVE IN WEST MIDS AND WOULD LOVE TO COME TO THE SHOWS CANT UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO STOP THEM IM ASUMING ITS BECAUSE OF THE SALE OF CAPTIVE BREAD ANIMALS I WOULD JUST LIKE TO SAY IS THIS NOT BETTER THAT IMPORT AND ATLEAST YOU KNOW WERE ITS COME FROM ALSO YOU LOT ON HERE SEEM TO HAVE ALOT MORE EXPERIANCE THAN ALOT OF SHOP KEEPERS I HAVE SPOKEN TO ALSO YOU CAN BUY FROM OTHERS IN PAPERS AND ONLINE SO WERES THE PROBLEM WITH ALL THIS SOME THINGS I HAVE PUT MAY-BE WRONG BUT HELL I WANT TO GO TO ONE OF THESE SHOWS :2thumb:


Then come along this Sunday, Wyre Forest Glades, Kidderminster. Will sign you up on the day, pay for membership and entrance (still £3.50) and there you go.


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## Zak

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/reptile-shows-breeder-meetings/354249-final-wyre-forest-council-press.html

there you go in writing from the council.


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## Horsfield

Zak said:


> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/reptile-shows-breeder-meetings/354249-final-wyre-forest-council-press.html
> 
> there you go in writing from the council.


Just tried to take a look and the link does not seem to be working


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## SleepyD

Horsfield said:


> Just tried to take a look and the link does not seem to be working


try this one hun -> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/rept...s/354249-final-wyre-forest-council-press.html


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## JamesJ

As you can see everything is still 100% on, so lets all enjoy the day! See you all Sunday!


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## Irian adam

Really cant wait!! glad it is all sorted now


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## CoinOperatedGirl

Is there going to be any kind of limitation on the number of people allowed to go in? I mean, if I don't get there till 1pm am I likely to be told to go home because it's full?


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## Kev132

CoinOperatedGirl said:


> Is there going to be any kind of limitation on the number of people allowed to go in? I mean, if I don't get there till 1pm am I likely to be told to go home because it's full?


if it works like the others, no, you may just have to wait an que untill there is room...


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## JamesJ

The halls maximum capacity is 1500 people, this includes you guys, children, breeders, organisers etc. We are expecting a good turn out but like anything you cant really estimate an exact number. If we do reach maximum capacity, new people can enter as other people leave : victory:


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## farnell182

cant wait till Sunday, looking forward to it now. picking up another hatchling burm and who knows what else : victory:


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## Captainmatt29

Such a fantastic turn aroud, its been a real stress for everyone!

I like how they basically say the apa are wrong haha


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## excession

Have you guys seen the new information on the IAR page?

http://www.internationalanimalrescue.org/news/2009/aug09-05.shtml


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## toxic

James_and_Hana said:


> The show is a members event and membership comes with entry for no extra charge, we will just need your name, DOB and email when you arrive, you will then recieve your membership card there and then.
> 
> 
> See you all Sunday!


Hay we hade are Membership number sent to use buy email but no card will you do or cards when we get there just give you are numbers ?

or could you email them to me thanks


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## charlottej1983

excession said:


> Have you guys seen the new information on the IAR page?
> 
> http://www.internationalanimalrescue.org/news/2009/aug09-05.shtml


just had a read! interesting??!! why the hell do they seem to think everything is bad??!! and bloody wild caught! 
god, sunday is going to be a day to remember me thinks!!


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## Captainmatt29

The ARA are going to be there under cover, i think we need an immediate ban on cameras and any sort of filming materials


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## madaboutreptiles

messengermatt said:


> The ARA are going to be there under cover, i think we need an immediate ban on cameras and any sort of filming materials


 
they will easy to spot........................:lol2:


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## excession

They really slam the council there...



> There is ample evidence to show that stallholders at the event are not hobbyists and that they fully intend to break the law on Sunday. We are concerned about the sheer scale of animal suffering that will result from the Council’s decision to allow trading.


They have ample evidence???

I wonder what on earth they have - or most likely think they have as 'evidence'.

They are constently banging on about it being wide spread sale of WC animals when there wont be any WC animals.


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## charlottej1983

messengermatt said:


> The ARA are going to be there under cover, i think we need an immediate ban on cameras and any sort of filming materials


in place all ready. only certain people will be given permission to take pics, also though, they wil film secretly and u wont stop that. and we honestly have nothing to hide, although tbh, the stress and shit they have attempted to cause has riled me so i hope i come across 1 of them! :whistling2:


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## Captainmatt29

From what i can gather they will do everything they can to document the shows behaviours etc and then use it against them afterwards - would be good to get someone from Environmental Health or Animal Welfare to to come down as they will be able to vouche then.


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## charlottej1983

excession said:


> They really slam the council there...
> 
> 
> 
> They have ample evidence???
> 
> I wonder what on earth they have - or most likely think they have as 'evidence'.
> 
> They are constently banging on about it being wide spread sale of WC animals when there wont be any WC animals.



1 of the rules for breeders attending is NO wild caught animals! if found to be selling w/c they wil be asked to leave! so basically the apa are clutching at straws.....

i wonder what tomorrow will bring!! grrrrrrrrrrr:bash:


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## Captainmatt29

charlottej1983 said:


> in place all ready. only certain people will be given permission to take pics, also though, they wil film secretly and u wont stop that. and we honestly have nothing to hide, although tbh, the stress and shit they have attempted to cause has riled me so i hope i come across 1 of them! :whistling2:


Let me be on the spot a filmer task force :mf_dribble:, i would like to tell a secret filmer to leave the premesis :devil:

Can i bring a camera?


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## excession

messengermatt said:


> The ARA are going to be there under cover, i think we need an immediate ban on cameras and any sort of filming materials


I think most importantly people with tables need to make an outstanding effort to make sure their animals are as stress free and comfortable as possible.


I always think that banning cameras suggest there is something to hide, and that shuoldnt be the case - there just shouldnt be anything that they can document and then peddle as 'evidance' of neglect and bad conditions.


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## charlottej1983

hey u lot....... looky what i found!!!! off u go........ :2thumb:


Search Names: international animal | Facebook


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## Aquilus

charlottej1983 said:


> in place all ready. only certain people will be given permission to take pics, also though, they wil film secretly and u wont stop that. and we honestly have nothing to hide, although tbh, the stress and shit they have attempted to cause has riled me so i hope i come across 1 of them! :whistling2:


This worries me somewhat... I've been to shows in the past, and snapping pictures has never been a problem until now. Do you really intend to let a few fanatical idiots with their facts wrong ruin it for everyone? When my friends ask me where I've been over the weekend, I'd like to be able to show them what it was like 

There's nothing to hide here, so why the secrecy and ban on photos?


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## SleepyD

excession said:


> Have you guys seen the new information on the IAR page?


there's this part in particular ~
"Enforcement Officers will be present on the day to gather evidence of the countless infringements that are expected to take place. The Animal Protection Agency and International Animal Rescue will also be documenting the poor welfare standards that are typical of reptile markets."
the wording that has been used is actually quite explicit ... in other words it won't matter how squeaky clean and caring the hobbyists attending are APE *will* find and/or twist everything and anything to reflect exactly what they want it too :naughty:


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## charlottej1983

we trust all the breeders attending as they all have very good names and very nice healthy stock. but we will also be doing checks on the animals wellfare etc through out the day.


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## thecricketkiller

im happy that the show is on:2thumb:, these people should not judge us untill they have seen the great level of care we offer(well most of us), with most of us rescueing and helping more animals then they ever will!

one point i will make is maybe they have looked at the list of stalls, some link to breeders sites and some say private breeder which implies that the others are not private breeders and infact commercial does it not?

maybe that can be corrected guys because i can see them using that as evidence or grounds for complaint at some point.


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## Captainmatt29

I think your going to need the local police on your side as they are going to cause ruptions


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## charlottej1983

messengermatt said:


> I think your going to need the local police on your side as they are going to cause ruptions




all ready done! :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Captainmatt29

charlottej1983 said:


> all ready done! :Na_Na_Na_Na:


 
gawd im almost wetting myself, its going to be such an exciting day: victory:

I have posted this all over my website and my facebook group too and most people are laughing at them.


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## Kev132

i cant get that page to load, can get the whole other website to load just not that page


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## incrisis

I am glad the show is going ahead, and I will be there...

Are you 100% positive that no traders will be selling animals?

We had the same sort of flack when we done our show, wasn't as public as this as we organised everything within a few weeks, but we nearly got shut down on the day.

As long as it is only private breeders, who don't make a living out of selling reptiles, are selling animals, there isn't much the APA can do.

Apart from try and twist things with regards to images of animals being kept in small containers.

If you need a hand with anything on the day, give me a shout, I am more than happy to help.


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## Dom1991

toxic said:


> Hay we hade are Membership number sent to use buy email but no card will you do or cards when we get there just give you are numbers ?
> 
> or could you email them to me thanks


Yeah this was something I was confused with as well. Is it as toxic said and have the cards based on our current numbers or do we have to get cards by providing the same details as everyone else signing up?


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## Captainmatt29

Kev132 said:


> i cant get that page to load, can get the whole other website to load just not that page


I couldnt get it to load either, use firefox  worked for me


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## JamesJ

thecricketkiller said:


> one point i will make is maybe they have looked at the list of stalls, some link to breeders sites and some say private breeder which implies that the others are not private breeders and infact commercial does it not?


The breeders that arnt linked to a website that say the breeders name and then private breeder. The reason for this is others have a website which is generally how the breeders are known, eg many people may not know who Dave Davies is, but if you put like we have Welsh Reptile Breeder, people are more likely to recognise the name, they are still private breeders, We have all the breeders booking forms stating this too : victory:


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## sazzle

if it gets axed when will we know? hope it doesn't  i was at donny last year and i dont think they even had electricity on most of the tables... at least this show has electricity points... so all me and the OH do on Sunday is sign up and that's it? i get confused easily haha


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## JamesJ

Dom1991 said:


> Yeah this was something I was confused with as well. Is it as toxic said and have the cards based on our current numbers or do we have to get cards by providing the same details as everyone else signing up?


We are going to be issuing completely new cards on the day, preprinted they just need names writing on. The ones that we emailed out print tiny, thanks to a stupid imaging programme :bash: So whether you have a membership number and/or card or not youll get a new one on the day so they are all the same.


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## incrisis

I don't understand this having to become a member thing.

I have been to many shows, and held our own show, and have never had too make sure everyone attending has to be a member.


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## Horsfield

James_and_Hana said:


> The breeders that arnt linked to a website that say the breeders name and then private breeder. The reason for this is others have a website which is generally how the breeders are known, eg many people may not know who Dave Davies is, but if you put like we have Welsh Reptile Breeder, people are more likely to recognise the name, they are still private breeders, We have all the breeders booking forms stating this too : victory:


Some are also selling reptiles and new dry goods and new equipment so this makes them traders....


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## Kev132

messengermatt said:


> I couldnt get it to load either, use firefox  worked for me


tried explorer, explorer 64 and Opera, not downloading firefox just for that lol


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## Captainmatt29

*Wyre Forest Council is slammed for giving green light to reptile market*









Established commercial traders posing as individuals selling a few surplus pets have been given the go-ahead by the Wyre Forest Council to trade in animals at an upcoming reptile market. Despite receiving praise from the Animal Protection Agency and International Animal Rescue earlier in the week for advising organisers that ‘under no circumstances can any trade or exchange of animals take place’ the Council has now advised organisers that they can trade. This will undoubtedly result in large-scale illegal activity.

The Council has advised event organisers that if members of the public become temporary members of the society on the door then animals can be legitimately bought and sold. This guidance has no basis in law. The Council will now find itself in the embarrassing position of assessing evidence for prosecution whilst at the same time, as the venue owner that authorised trading, being an accessory to those crimes










Said Animal Protection Agency spokesperson Elaine Toland: "By effectively permitting large-scale trading the Council’s negligence on this matter means that its legal position and liabilities are now seriously compromised. There is ample evidence to show that stallholders at the event are not hobbyists and that they fully intend to break the law on Sunday. We are concerned about the sheer scale of animal suffering that will result from the Council’s decision to allow trading."

Enforcement Officers will be present on the day to gather evidence of the countless infringements that are expected to take place. The Animal Protection Agency and International Animal Rescue will also be documenting the poor welfare standards that are typical of reptile markets.

The Animal Protection Agency is an organisation focused on ceasing the trade in wild animals as pets. They work closely with International Animal Rescue, which saves animals all over the world by intercepting the activities of wildlife dealers.


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## Kev132

cheers mate, legend 

only law/thing ill be breaking is one of their neck's if i spot one :lol2:


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## Captainmatt29

Kev132 said:


> cheers mate, legend
> 
> only law/thing ill be breaking is one of their neck's if i spot one :lol2:


I too would have choice words to say to them.


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## thecricketkiller

James_and_Hana said:


> The breeders that arnt linked to a website that say the breeders name and then private breeder. The reason for this is others have a website which is generally how the breeders are known, eg many people may not know who Dave Davies is, but if you put like we have Welsh Reptile Breeder, people are more likely to recognise the name, they are still private breeders, We have all the breeders booking forms stating this too : victory:


cool was just pointing out how it could be seen:2thumb:


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## incrisis

incrisis said:


> I am glad the show is going ahead, and I will be there...
> 
> Are you 100% positive that no traders will be selling animals?
> 
> We had the same sort of flack when we done our show, wasn't as public as this as we organised everything within a few weeks, but we nearly got shut down on the day.
> 
> As long as it is only private breeders, who don't make a living out of selling reptiles, are selling animals, there isn't much the APA can do.
> 
> Apart from try and twist things with regards to images of animals being kept in small containers.
> 
> If you need a hand with anything on the day, give me a shout, I am more than happy to help.





incrisis said:


> I don't understand this having to become a member thing.
> 
> I have been to many shows, and held our own show, and have never had too make sure everyone attending has to be a member.


I must be invisible on this thread. :whistling2:


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## penfold

cheers for putting that up the bit i can never work out is why do the councils beleive the rubbish they spout if we were not hobbyists we would not be doing it in the first place personally im not attending this show as i have to work ,i beleive the best thing you can do is IGNORE THEM if you get into arguements or fights it will just make it worse and more shows will suffer but if you do end up in a punch up all i can say is CAMERA PHONE LOL


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## tesse.t

im really confued not sure if i've missed something. i know the show is still going ahead but if i want to buy anything must i become a member first? or sign up on the day? cheers: victory:


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## tesse.t

scratch that just ready the first post properly haha...:lol2:

so basically i can turn up on the day and become a member in order to buy? or would it be easier to sign up before hand?


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## toxic

I know it may be a bit of a paine but I would take photos and video of the stalls befor you open the doors to use crazy lot. Becous if it gets packed like Rodbaston did there use that as well to slag you of saying the stalls were over loaded and so on. Then you know you can say this is what the stall's looked like .


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## wolves121121

tesse.t said:


> scratch that just ready the first post properly haha...:lol2:
> 
> so basically i can turn up on the day and become a member in order to buy? or would it be easier to sign up before hand?


 
it would be best to sign up to be a member on the day


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## tesse.t

wolves121121 said:


> it would be best to sign up to be a member on the day


Ok cheers 

Glad its definatly going ahead : victory:


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## philbaines

Well if i catch some one "secreat" filmin while me or my children are there ill be the first to call the police...


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## jav07

sazzle said:


> if it gets axed when will we know? hope it doesn't  i was at donny last year and i dont think they even had electricity on most of the tables... at least this show has electricity points... so all me and the OH do on Sunday is sign up and that's it? i get confused easily haha


 every table except dry goods had electric provided


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## excession

toxic said:


> I know it may be a bit of a paine but I would take photos and video of the stalls befor you open the doors to use crazy lot. Becous if it gets packed like Rodbaston did there use that as well to slag you of saying the stalls were over loaded and so on. Then you know you can say this is what the stall's looked like .


Good idea that


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## Moshpitviper

dont you love the way they continually refer to the breeders meeting as a 'market'? GET YA KILLER BEE AXANTHICS..... £1 A PUNNET!!!!!


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## kirsten

disgusts me that they call it a CRIME!!! it's bloody buerocrocy (sp) gone mad, why can't we all just meet up, have a good time, buy/sell our animals in peace? where the CRIME in that FFS, it's just rediculous. i understand the need to make sure welfare is met, but that not impossible, they make it sound like we're all money grabbing heartless b*stard!!! ggg thats bit really F*ing annoyed me, CRIME, gggrrrr, i hate the beaurocracy in this country sometimes, it's jsut rediculous.

i love to get one of those APA/IAR guys round my place, and show them the CRIMES in commiting with my personal animal care, ggggrrr so wound up now.

anyway, i'm going to be attending the show and can't wait.


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## Zak

Please please guys put in your sigs on here that the shows is ON! And you can sign up for membership on the door.


Seems APA are now emailing the world and his wife to spread propaganda against us now. Think they realise they cant stop it so want to reduce turn out as much as possible. So APA/IRA if you're reading this i am seeking a solicitors advice regarding libel and slander charges.


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## AuntyLizard

Well we will definately be there.. Anything we can do to help with stopping the Anti's getting there own way let us know.

Liz


----------



## Zak

Liz_n_Mark said:


> Well we will definately be there.. Anything we can do to help with stopping the Anti's getting there own way let us know.
> 
> Liz


Advertise this is a legit event, is still on and everyones welcome etc, either through here, websites, mailing lists. We cant let the anti's scare people away from this event. We might be sure its still on but others might have been scared away or feel they're not welcome. This was meant to be a reptile community and their families orientated day out and we still want it like that.


----------



## pankthesnake

Zak said:


> Please please guys put in your sigs on here that the shows is ON! And you can sign up for membership on the door.
> 
> 
> Seems APA are now emailing the world and his wife to spread propaganda against us now. Think they realise they cant stop it so want to reduce turn out as much as possible. So APA/IRA if you're reading this i am seeking a solicitors advice regarding libel and slander charges.


We have tables booked, and want this to be a success not just for the traders at this particular show but for the good of the reptile community in the UK.


----------



## Charlottie

Well that was a long and confusing read, glad it is still on! Hope to see all you there, its going to be fun explaining this to my grandma :lol2:


----------



## Captainmatt29

Zak said:


> Please please guys put in your sigs on here that the shows is ON! And you can sign up for membership on the door.
> 
> 
> Seems APA are now emailing the world and his wife to spread propaganda against us now. Think they realise they cant stop it so want to reduce turn out as much as possible. So APA/IRA if you're reading this i am seeking a solicitors advice regarding libel and slander charges.


My sig has been ammended: victory:


----------



## JamesJ

Zak said:


> Please please guys *put in your sigs* on here that the shows is ON! And you can sign up for membership on the door.


Lead by example then Zak :whistling2:

We have done it :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Slurm

I will be going to just browse really.

Gotta say though at a recent show there was definately a commercial breeder there, wont say who he is but he supplies all the pet shops and shouldnt of been allowed there.

Its difficult to tell the difference between hobby breeders and commercial ones, specially when some of the so called hobby breeders import animals to sell on.


----------



## toxic

I would tell the police that you belive there going to be animal activist there trying to cause problems. And that there will be young childrean there.

All so I think if there found to have secret video camera on them. Then the tap / dvd / hd will be removed or deleted.

I would have a Big sign on the door saying NO video recordings to be taken then you have the right to ask them to give you the film


----------



## JamesJ

toxic said:


> I would tell the police that you belive there going to be animal activist there trying to cause problems. And that there will be young childrean there.
> 
> All so I think if there found to have secret video camera on them. Then the tap / dvd / hd will be removed or deleted.
> 
> I would have a Big sign on the door saying NO video recordings to be taken then you have the right to ask them to give you the film


Neon signs stating no photography or video recording permited have already been made. We just need to keep vidulant for undercover people from APA/IAR as they will be trying to do so.

The police are fully aware of the situation, we have a direct phone number to them and all their staff know about the problems the activists may cause.

If you see anyone trying to take photos or video record or acting suspiciously dont hesitate to raise the awareness to any of us :2thumb:


----------



## Aquilus

toxic said:


> I would tell the police that you belive there going to be animal activist there trying to cause problems. And that there will be young childrean there.
> 
> All so I think if there found to have secret video camera on them. Then the tap / dvd / hd will be removed or deleted.
> 
> I would have a Big sign on the door saying NO video recordings to be taken then you have the right to ask them to give you the film


One of my hobbies is photography and it pays to know the legalities, and unfortunately in this case that is incorrect. You have no right to ask them to surrender their property or film if you catch them, and it would be an assault to attempt to take it from them, or if anyone instigated fear that unlawful violence would be used against them if they didn't hand it over voluntarily. They're probably well aware of this, and just itching for an opportunity to get someone from the show arrested - don't let it happen.

What you do have the right to do is to ask them to leave (as by filming without permission they have entitled you to cancel their permission to be at the event, and by remaining are therefore committing a trespass). If the police are around, that'd be something to inform them of and ask if they can help out, should they refuse to leave.


----------



## Zak

Aquilus said:


> One of my hobbies is photography and it pays to know the legalities, and unfortunately in this case that is incorrect. You have no right to ask them to surrender their property or film if you catch them, and it would be an assault to attempt to take it from them, or if anyone instigated fear that unlawful violence would be used against them if they didn't hand it over voluntarily. They're probably well aware of this, and just itching for an opportunity to get someone from the show arrested - don't let it happen.
> 
> What you do have the right to do is to ask them to leave (as by filming without permission they have entitled you to cancel their permission to be at the event, and by remaining are therefore committing a trespass). If the police are around, that'd be something to inform them of and ask if they can help out, should they refuse to leave.


Trust me it wont happen. Police know the score and have been briefed about what might happen.


----------



## excession

from the WMRS site: 




> Due to our breeders getting emails from unwanted sources we have removed the breeder list.


That really sucks - are they harrasing breeders then?


----------



## gaz

how do you tell the difference between weird emails and normal customers then??
regards gaz


----------



## philbaines

If it helps i think i got the APA's facebook page closed


----------



## JamesJ

philbaines said:


> If it helps i think i got the APA's facebook page closed


:lol2:


----------



## nickjlucey

Shame it's all going this way, sounds like you've got it wrapped up but a couple of ideas if you fancy it, 

- set out guidelines as to appropriate containers etc, would imagine small containers will be their no 1 argument, so have something in there that says 'Suitabley small containers must be used in order to allow animals to be transported safely' and so on, get all hobbyists to sign the list of conditons, sign them yourself as organisers and take photo's.

- instead of banning filming and photo's , encourage it, so that when they have 5 snoops with, a few photo's of small boxes, you will have some thousand odd people with photo's of how well things are looked after, films of how much care information hobbyists are able to give etc. 

- have some temp check sheets, animal condition checksheets, checksheet-checksheets, the authorities seem to love a good check sheet, so have loads of them. (preferrably more than the complainers will be willing or have time to sift through)


Anyway if nothing else, they've produced some hype and an internet buzz for the show, so there'll probably be more people there than there would have been before.


- OH and if someone asks you what you do for a living, 'I breed reptiles' is the wrong answer


----------



## excession

philbaines said:


> If it helps i think i got the APA's facebook page closed


How did you manage that?


----------



## Zak

nickjlucey said:


> Shame it's all going this way, sounds like you've got it wrapped up but a couple of ideas if you fancy it,
> 
> - set out guidelines as to appropriate containers etc, would imagine small containers will be their no 1 argument, so have something in there that says 'Suitabley small containers must be used in order to allow animals to be transported safely' and so on, get all hobbyists to sign the list of conditons, sign them yourself as organisers and take photo's.
> 
> - instead of banning filming and photo's , encourage it, so that when they have 5 snoops with, a few photo's of small boxes, you will have some thousand odd people with photo's of how well things are looked after, films of how much care information hobbyists are able to give etc.
> 
> - have some temp check sheets, animal condition checksheets, checksheet-checksheets, the authorities seem to love a good check sheet, so have loads of them. (preferrably more than the complainers will be willing or have time to sift through)
> 
> 
> Anyway if nothing else, they've produced some hype and an internet buzz for the show, so there'll probably be more people there than there would have been before.
> 
> 
> - OH and if someone asks you what you do for a living, 'I breed reptiles' is the wrong answer


Hahahaha i think pretty much everyone at the show wishes they could breed reptiles for a living!

Will definitely think about all yours points and thanks for those, im loving how this event is really bringing out the community spirit of the reptile hobby.


----------



## Captainmatt29

It'll be like a horror movie, someone will get caught filming and all the herpers will turn around and promptly usher them out as a big group - minus the vampirism


----------



## pankthesnake

nickjlucey said:


> Shame it's all going this way, sounds like you've got it wrapped up but a couple of ideas if you fancy it,
> 
> - set out guidelines as to appropriate containers etc, would imagine small containers will be their no 1 argument, so have something in there that says 'Suitabley small containers must be used in order to allow animals to be transported safely' and so on, get all hobbyists to sign the list of conditons, sign them yourself as organisers and take photo's.


I would imagine this would be too much work, too little time. How do you specify container size for multiple sizes of multiple species.



nickjlucey said:


> - instead of banning filming and photo's , encourage it, so that when they have 5 snoops with, a few photo's of small boxes, you will have some thousand odd people with photo's of how well things are looked after, films of how much care information hobbyists are able to give etc.


All it takes is 1 or 2 photos of small containers and they have fresh ammunition.



nickjlucey said:


> Anyway if nothing else, they've produced some hype and an internet buzz for the show, so there'll probably be more people there than there would have been before.


Very true. Hope loads of people turn up, just to p**s off the antis and show the reptile community will not be intimidated.


----------



## laura88

hi guys i REALLY REALLY want to come to the show but i dont no if i should as i have to small children and i dont think i can get a sitter every time i go to busy places with the kids in there buggys i get filthy looks and stuff so not sure if i should come advice please thanks x


----------



## Captainmatt29

the best bit is if they film anyone they can sue their asses as they didnt ask first.


----------



## pankthesnake

messengermatt said:


> the best bit is if they film anyone they can sue their asses as they didnt ask first.


I agree to an extent, it would be nice if something like this could happen, but would it again just give them the opportunity to say that we have something to hide?


----------



## thecricketkiller

laura88 said:


> hi guys i REALLY REALLY want to come to the show but i dont no if i should as i have to small children and i dont think i can get a sitter every time i go to busy places with the kids in there buggys i get filthy looks and stuff so not sure if i should come advice please thanks x


take the kids, mums dont have to be outcasts:2thumb:


----------



## laura88

thanks hun i was just a bit worried that people wouldnt want little kids there cheers hun x


----------



## thecricketkiller

laura88 said:


> thanks hun i was just a bit worried that people wouldnt want little kids there cheers hun x


has long as your kids dont have cameras :lol2: i dont think this lot will notice :lol2:


----------



## philbaines

Links on "International Animal Rescue" | Facebook

check out there comment 

*International Animal Rescue* 
International Animal Rescue and the Animal Protection Agency strive to uphold the law and protect animal welfare. The issue relating to the ‘West Midlands Reptile Expo... *Read more*’ is not whether animals are captive-bred or wild-caught but that the selling of these animals at markets is illegal. Pet markets were outlawed in the UK for good animal welfare reasons and now that the law has been tested in the High Court there should be little room for misinterpretation. The advice issued by Wyre Forest District Council to event organisers has no basis in law and we have challenged the Council to justify its legal position. Evidence gatherers will be present on the day to record criminal transactions.


----------



## Captainmatt29

philbaines said:


> Links on "International Animal Rescue" | Facebook
> 
> check out there comment
> 
> *International Animal Rescue*
> International Animal Rescue and the Animal Protection Agency strive to uphold the law and protect animal welfare. The issue relating to the ‘West Midlands Reptile Expo... *Read more*’ is not whether animals are captive-bred or wild-caught but that the selling of these animals at markets is illegal. Pet markets were outlawed in the UK for good animal welfare reasons and now that the law has been tested in the High Court there should be little room for misinterpretation. The advice issued by Wyre Forest District Council to event organisers has no basis in law and we have challenged the Council to justify its legal position. Evidence gatherers will be present on the day to record criminal transactions.


 
I just commented to them saying that if i find one singloe second of video with my face in it i will take them to court because they need my permission to film me and the same goes for others.


----------



## incrisis

I don't think they will like my comment and I expect to receive some nasty responses.


----------



## philbaines

dont seemto be getting many replys


----------



## Horsfield

I hope the IAR appreciate my comment on their face book page......:lol2:


----------



## VoodooWitchDoctor

Who are the APA?

I've never heard of them!


----------



## philbaines

(in the style off a chant)

WHO ARE YAAAA,WHO ARE YAAAAA!!!


----------



## incrisis

VoodooWitchDoctor said:


> Who are the APA?
> 
> I've never heard of them!


A narrow minded group of animal lovers, who have no clue what they are talking about.


----------



## VoodooWitchDoctor

Honestly!

Who are they?

I really don't know!

The Association of Publishing Agencies have nothing to do with snakes!
Customer Magazines & Customer Publishing - Association of Publishing Agencies - APA


----------



## VoodooWitchDoctor

incrisis said:


> A narrow minded group of animal lovers, who have no clue what they are talking about.



Aha!

The Animal Protection Agency!

Bloody Hippies!

*BAN THE APA!

DROWN THE HIPPIES!
*​


----------



## Captainmatt29

:lol2: Incy is correct


----------



## Schip

Sorry anyone trying to take photo's of me, my animals or gkids would be reported to the police for paedophilia activities.

We had lots of this sort of threats at Crufts turned out to be about 15 students who the police put behind barriers out of the way think there were more coppers than protesters quite funny really.


----------



## incrisis

messengermatt said:


> :lol2: Incy is correct


As always 

:lol2:


----------



## SWMorelia

Schip said:


> Sorry anyone trying to take photo's of me, my animals or gkids would be reported to the police for paedophilia activities.
> 
> We had lots of this sort of threats at Crufts turned out to be about 15 students who the police put behind barriers out of the way think there were more coppers than protesters quite funny really.


Cheers.... Thats put my mind at rest....
I've been phoning around for expert helpers, to help *Joel*:whistling2: out on the day.... LOL


----------



## linda.t

SW-morelia said:


> Cheers.... Thats put my mind at rest....
> I've been phoning around for expert helpers, to help *Joel*:whistling2: out on the day.... LOL



i was at crufts and i counted the protesters and there was 12
so i'd be surprised if there were loads.


----------



## incrisis

Can someone ask Zak to reply to my PM.


----------



## JamesJ

incrisis said:


> Can someone ask Zak to reply to my PM.


Ill give him a text : victory: He's back down here for the show now instead of scotland, he's prob enjoying what little time he has here :lol2:


----------



## SWMorelia

linda.t said:


> i was at crufts and i counted the protesters and there was 12
> so i'd be surprised if there were loads.


So I wasted my money getting him a tee shirt to point him out.... Damn.


----------



## incrisis

James_and_Hana said:


> Ill give him a text : victory: He's back down here for the show now instead of scotland, he's prob enjoying what little time he has here :lol2:


If you could, that would be nice.

He seems to ignore me most of the time .....

Maybe I am on his ignore list....


----------



## JamesJ

He's been to the pub, said he'll check PM's so im sure you'll get a reply : victory:


----------



## incrisis

James_and_Hana said:


> He's been to the pub, said he'll check PM's so im sure you'll get a reply : victory:


If I don't, I will be most upset and might cry a little.


----------



## JamesJ

incrisis said:


> If I don't, I will be most upset and might cry a little.


Ill give you a lollypop if you dont cry?


----------



## Fixx

messengermatt said:


> I just commented to them saying that if i find one singloe second of video with my face in it i will take them to court because they need my permission to film me and the same goes for others.





Schip said:


> Sorry anyone trying to take photo's of me, my animals or gkids would be reported to the police for paedophilia activities.


If they film you in a public place, i.e. the road/pavement leading to the venue then you have no legal recourse (unless they are filming you specifically and not just as a general 'crowd' shot). If they have permission to film inside the venue from the venue owner and just film in 'general' e.g. no close up face shots, interviews etc. then I also believe they are within their rights and you will have no legal recourse either.

Also any filming of children in a public place is not illegal either, if I so desired I could film the children at our local play park with no threat of legal comeback as it is a public space.


----------



## wohic

James_and_Hana said:


> Ill give you a lollypop if you dont cry?


I want a lollypop as well :whip:

I have left a reply on the AR facebook thread, hopefully it makes sense


----------



## toxic

incrisis said:


> If I don't, I will be most upset and might cry a little.


Dont cry do a little wee wee in ya pants then you will still look like a man :lol2:


----------



## Zak

Sorry guys was at pub with missus and mom. Replied to various pms etc.

The APA are more than welcome to come on the day and record illegal activities. I do like how they've changed their stand point from WC to animal market. This isn't an animal market its a breeders meet. Seriously if someone knows something i dont, a breeder who is actually a trader, someone with a PSL etc let us know. We aren't trying to con anyone here.


----------



## incrisis

James_and_Hana said:


> Ill give you a lollypop if you dont cry?



I don't like lollipops. 



wohic said:


> I want a lollypop as well :whip:
> 
> I have left a reply on the AR facebook thread, hopefully it makes sense


Do you deserve one?


:Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## JamesJ

wohic said:


> I want a lollypop as well :whip:
> 
> I have left a reply on the AR facebook thread, hopefully it makes sense


If you bring some female cresties you might get a lollypop :whistling2:

Completely agree with your post on IAR :2thumb: They are just going to get more narked with us now the members on here are standing up for us :lol2:


----------



## incrisis

toxic said:


> Dont cry do a little wee wee in ya pants then you will still look like a man :lol2:


Erm .............. no?


----------



## JamesJ

incrisis said:


> I don't like lollipops.


Your poo! I was going to say a cookie but everyone says cookies and i preffer lollypops :lol2:


----------



## wohic

incrisis said:


> I don't like lollipops.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you deserve one?
> 
> 
> :Na_Na_Na_Na:



why wouldn't I ? I is perfect



James_and_Hana said:


> If you bring some female cresties you might get a lollypop :whistling2:
> 
> Completely agree with your post on IAR :2thumb: They are just going to get more narked with us now the members on here are standing up for us :lol2:



will see if i can bare to part with one , might bring a female garg instead or as well, tempting me with lollypops is naughty though :devil: IAR may have a point on your evilness :lol2:


----------



## JamesJ

wohic said:


> will see if i can bare to part with one , might bring a female garg instead or as well, tempting me with lollypops is naughty though :devil: IAR may have a point on your evilness :lol2:


I dont like gargs, no lollypop for you! :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Seems IAR have a point on everything, not a vaild one, but they always have one :lol2:


----------



## incrisis

James_and_Hana said:


> Your poo! I was going to say a cookie but everyone says cookies and i preffer lollypops :lol2:


I don't like cookies either ........

Diabetes, gotta love it to stop you eating crap. 



wohic said:


> why wouldn't I ? I is perfect


You are my dear, you are ......

:crazy:


----------



## Horsfield

wohic said:


> why wouldn't I ? I is perfect
> 
> 
> 
> 
> will see if i can bare to part with one , might bring a female *gag* instead or as well, tempting me with lollypops is naughty though :devil: IAR may have a point on your evilness :lol2:


........


----------



## SWMorelia

incrisis said:


> I don't like cookies either ........
> 
> *Diabetes*, gotta love it to stop you eating crap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :crazy:


Wasn't he a Welsh fly weight:whistling2:


----------



## wohic

Horsfield said:


> ........



now thats just kinky


----------



## Horsfield

wohic said:


> now thats just kinky


lol haha :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Zak

Can see what this pub meets going to be like!


----------



## charlottej1983

hello there Zak, nice of u to pop in. lol


----------



## Zak

Im currently formatting and fixing my bro's computer so am a bit preoccupied.


----------



## Horsfield

Zak said:


> Can see what this pub meets going to be like!


A giggle if anything like the others will be good to see you there


----------



## incrisis

SW-morelia said:


> Wasn't he a Welsh fly weight:whistling2:


Welsh?

WELSH?


PAH!

Bloody welsh and their throat disease for a language.

:Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## JamesJ

charlottej1983 said:


> hello there Zak, nice of u to pop in. lol


Says the stranger to this thread :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Hellooooooooooooooo! :no1:


----------



## charlottej1983

Zak said:


> Im currently formatting and fixing my bro's computer so am a bit preoccupied.




OOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.... stroppy! lol


----------



## Zak

See this is what the APA has done. Turned us organisers in to deranged fools.


----------



## SWMorelia

Zak said:


> Can see what this pub meets going to be like!


It'll be great.... Names and faces not avatars and sigs......
Names and faces leave a much better impression IMO....
I can't wait.....
And if you could all form an orderly queue to punch Joel, I would appreciate it.... And we will try to accommodate all of you..:lol2:
Simon and Jack along with Mask of sanity are booked in first, but it's a long day so book early not to be disappointed...


----------



## charlottej1983

Zak said:


> See this is what the APA has done. Turned us organisers in to deranged fools.


yeah.... im sat in the corner of the room rocking, i just cant see a way out! lol.... 
1 day to go guys! fingers crossed....


----------



## Horsfield

I have been band from the iar face book page lol

This is why lol

I suspect this will be like most of these groups the saboteurs on the day are random students and drop outs they pay to do their dirty work


----------



## charlottej1983

Horsfield said:


> I have been band from the iar face book page lol


lol.... have they answered yet?


----------



## JamesJ

Zak said:


> See this is what the APA has done. Turned us organisers in to deranged fools.


Speak for yourself & Charl :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Horsfield

charlottej1983 said:


> lol.... have they answered yet?


No answer just not a member any more they banned me LOL the truth hurts....

I don't care 

It was the same with the hunting ban they don't like it when you give them a run for there money. I never hunted my horses until the do gooders started on the hunt then I thought F*** them if we don't make a stand what will be next and this is what it has come to.


----------



## Kev132

have they disabled comments now ? or am i being thick, wanted to leave a comment ! lol


----------



## Horsfield

Kev132 said:


> have they disabled comments now ? or am i being thick, wanted to leave a comment ! lol


You need to click the join the group link to post.......


----------



## Craigbaines

I know i had to become a fan before i could ^^


oops sorry - i was too slow


----------



## Kev132

cheers guys


----------



## charlottej1983

i've noticed how all the apa and iar supporters on f/b have jumped in to stick up for what they do..... NOT! soooo.... todays the last day... fingers crossed.... no more shite!!


----------



## wohic

i do think we need to stay civilized on there though, getting rude or abusive will just add fuel to their fire, they do do some great work but seem sadly misinformed on this issue. Education can go a long way towards keeping our hobby safe , help them understand the good thats being done and get them on side thats my advice.


----------



## excession

wohic said:


> i do think we need to stay civilized on there though, getting rude or abusive will just add fuel to their fire, they do do some great work but seem sadly misinformed on this issue. Education can go a long way towards keeping our hobby safe , help them understand the good thats being done and get them on side thats my advice.


I agree.

Staying civilized is the way to go.




> International Animal Rescue
> 
> Sponsored Dog Walk!
> Followed by an Animal Thanksgiving Service
> JOIN IN ALL THE FUN! In aid of International Animal Rescue. (Special gift for every dog taking part!) 1.30pm – Set off from St Margaret’s Church, Buxted Park. 3pm – Animal T...
> Host:International Animal Rescue
> Time:1:30PM Sunday, October 11th
> Location:St Margaret’s Church
> Thu at 12:15pm · Comment · Like · Share · RSVP to this event
> 
> *Incrisis RIs using dogs for financial gain an acceptable practice?
> Yesterday at 7:42pm · Report
> 
> James KeelingAww poor little dogs being used for financial gain!
> Yesterday at 7:43pm · Report*



LOL


----------



## AuntyLizard

I think Julia is right we have to handle any intimidation or such like, in a dignified and peacful way. 

I do though however have my walking stick lol.

Liz


----------



## amyloveys

only 24 hours to go people wahhhooooooooooooooooooo


----------



## jungleboy

Good luck with the show, I hope it's a success : victory:.


----------



## Zak

haha, so close now


----------



## Captainmatt29

I dont think there is anything they can do now, the council is closed on a sunday and the police are already briefed of their situation so its going to go ahead wheter they like it or not.

Liking the membership idea to make it private, im gonna do this next year too i think haha


----------



## Kev132

Right, 

Me and the other half are booked into a campsite about 3 miles away, we're going down to get set up, then going to the safari park as there's some IHS talks going on there and stuff, pretty sure they'l kick us out around 8-9, anyone local fancy a trip to the pub tonight ???


----------



## Charlottie

I cant wait!!!!!! =) =) :2thumb:

=D =D

See you lot there!!


----------



## VoodooWitchDoctor

*I don't understand what the APA & IAR have such an issue with breeding and selling reptiles!

Don't they realise reptiles which are endangered in places for example Australia (because of the cane toad) and South America (because their habitat is under threat from logging companies) have a huge chance to exist and thrive in future breeding programs by people who understand them through keeping and breeding them all over the world!

They are idiots who have no idea what they are taking about what so ever!

Even the leading documentary conservationists we see quite often on TV even recognise the importants of captive bred animals!

If I come accross any of these prats on my way in, I will (unusually for me as alot of you well know from my past outbursts) let them know this important fact in a calm and composed manner!
*


SW-morelia said:


> It'll be great.... Names and faces not avatars and sigs......
> Names and faces leave a much better impression IMO....
> I can't wait.....
> And if you could all form an orderly queue to punch Joel, I would appreciate it.... And we will try to accommodate all of you..:lol2:
> Simon and Jack along with Mask of sanity are booked in first, but it's a long day so book early not to be disappointed...


*I'll bring my boxing gloves with me then buddy!*: victory:

:2thumb:

*Matt*


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## Kev132

so, you misserable buggers !!!

here we are, sat in a tent, with a can of beck's, when we could be at a pub but no one was game !!?! 

safari was good, and marks talk was pretty good for an un-rehersed one !!!!

see you all tommorow !!!


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