# Thinking of getting some fish...!!



## mike2niner4 (Feb 16, 2008)

Hey,

I'm thinking of getting a couple of goldfish which i would probably have the tank in the bedroom. I wanted to firstly make sure it would be alright on a desk (quite a soilid one) which i would put them on and i would also work on there... that would be ok?

Also, what type of goldfish or fish do you reccomend? Its only going to be a maximum of a 21L tank so are goldfish the only one's you can get and which is the best type of goldfish considering i want it to last a long time yet be good to look at and enjoy.

Many Thanks!

Mike


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## Natonstan (Aug 9, 2008)

If you have lots of money you cud set up a Tropical aquarium, but if your just looking for something cheap then yeh a couple of goldfish would be awesome, was thinking of getting 1 myself at the weekend, as ive not had fish in ages!


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## mike2niner4 (Feb 16, 2008)

As much as i would love a tropical aquarium i dont have the money (well i could save up but it would take a while) and i dont have that much space really :devil:


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## Natonstan (Aug 9, 2008)

Yeh, you should get some of those black goldfish with the bulging eyes, those are awesome! I had 1 of those before, there cool how they wobble


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## labmad (Sep 23, 2007)

I think they are the Black Moors.......then there are the telescopic eye ones too......I quite like the Pearlscale fish......may get some myself....but HATE the look of the Ranchu fish......just not my bag


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## Natonstan (Aug 9, 2008)

That's the ones, realy awesome! :2thumb: I remember I had a goldfish once that lived for like 6 years and was HUGE, he sadly passed away due to old age


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

Natonstan said:


> *If you have lots of money you cud set up a Tropical aquarium*, but if your just looking for something cheap then yeh a couple of goldfish would be awesome, was thinking of getting 1 myself at the weekend, as ive not had fish in ages!


WRONG! I think you may be thinking marine. Just to clarify there is tropical freshwater (neons, plecos etc), Coldwater Freshwater (goldfish), then tropical marine (clownfish, tangs etc) and cold marine (native species and fish from other non-tropic seas). Plus brackish (low salinity, stuff like archer fish and scats) For the purpose of this, I refer to tropical and cold freshwater only.

The only extra cost for tropical rather than coldwater is a heater and thermometer. For that size tank a 25 watt heater would be fine which shouldn't set you back more than 15 quid really.

there's a lot more choice for that size tank as well, fish wise. There being a lot more small good looking tropicals than coldwater.


Goldfish need much bigger tanks than that really. Even the smaller fancy goldfish will hit 8" so need a good 3 foot tank at least really.

If you want coldwater, the only fish I would suggest are mountain minnows and danios. They are small but not much to look at so tropical would probably be better. So much more choice and better looking anyway. Plus the fancy goldfish are similar to pedigree dogs. Hugely inbred and often have serious health issues


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## Trillian (Jul 14, 2008)

If money and space are your only constraints then I would suggest a tropical tank with small species such as platies, zebra danios, harlequins etc. Goldfish really need 45L _per fish_ and are muckier than tropical fish so the tank needs a bit of extra filtering IME. 

You could pick up a decent two foot tank secondhand and keep a half dozen shoaling fish plus a few honey or dwarf gouramis. The maintenance of the tank is exactly the same, whether it's tropical or coldwater. As Mike said, the only additional purchase is a heater for the tropical tank.


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## crazycallum (Sep 11, 2008)

Get a siamese fighting fish, can keep them in a 3 gallon tank and its easily enough room for them, you can only keep one though as they will kill each other. You won't need a heater either as they can live at room temperature, just make sure that the water isn't freezing cold


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## mike2niner4 (Feb 16, 2008)

Really!?!??! My phone says that 4.6Gallons is 21L is that correct? If so then that would be amazing! Do they last long and are they harder to keep?

Mike


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

no a heater is a requirement with siamese.

they come from a tropical climate. Meaning they need tropical water. the average house is about 21 degrees which is not tropical temps. At night this will drop to anywhere from 15-18 degrees.

Just because a fish will survive doesn't mean that's how you should keep it.


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## crazycallum (Sep 11, 2008)

Siamese fighting fish are really popular because they are tropical fish but you do not have to keep them with a heater, mike i'll pm you the address for a tropical fish forum where people keep loadsss of them,you generally just need to make sure the water isn't freezing cold


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

yeah I don't want a pm to a forum thanks.

they are a tropical fish. Unless your house is always over 22 degrees then I don't think they should be kept without a heater.

In the states it's a different matter. a lot the of US states have temps high enough to keep tropicals without a heater, over here it's very different.


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## crazycallum (Sep 11, 2008)

its fine i wasn't pming you, i think the thread starter is called mike? there isn't a problem with keeping betta's at room temperature. but obviously thats your opinion and you may or may not be right, but from what i'v found from people on a tropical fish keeping forum, not a reptile forum, your incorrect.


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

so just because it's primarily a reptile forum. anyone in thefish section is wrong?

this isn't the only forum I'm a member of. I'm on quite a few specialist fish forums.

fact is a lot of people keep fish incorrectly. All the fighter breeders I know and speak to keep them heated and all the fighter keepers I know also heat their tanks. In the states it's a different matter.

Again back to the point, just because it will live, doesn't mean it will be happy and thrive.

You 'can' keep a fighter in a small jar. Doesn't mean you should though does it


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## jamilia532002 (Sep 8, 2008)

i have a few fighters and was told when i purchased them that i didnt need a heater and i did not have the money at the time to buy one. the fighters didnt seem happy so i went out and got a heater and there was a massive improvement just in the way they moved around the tank i agree with mike515 just because it will live does not mean it will be happy and thrive.


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## crazycallum (Sep 11, 2008)

i'v got one in a 3.5 gallon tank with no heater and its perfectly fine and has been for a couple of month, i just make sure the water is atleast at room temperature, i'm not saying keep it in cold water, you just dont NEED a heater


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

crazycallum said:


> i'v got one in a 3.5 gallon tank with no heater and its perfectly fine and has been for a couple of month, i just make sure the water is atleast at room temperature, i'm not saying keep it in cold water, you just dont NEED a heater


a few months is nothing. i could easily sit in bed 24/7 for a couple of months and i'd be fine. however, it wouldnt be healthy. 

Colder waer means a slower metabolism which means that your betta wont be burning as much energy as he would if he was in a tropical climate. Therefore he will be obese, which puts a strain on all the organs. Which means a dead betta.


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## crazycallum (Sep 11, 2008)

whats the point in writing replys if people havn't read what i'v wrote? i said dont keep it in cold water, room temperature isn't cold.


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

crazycallum said:


> whats the point in writing replys if people havn't read what i'v wrote? i said dont keep it in cold water, room temperature isn't cold.


Lololol! It isn't warm, either.


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## Natonstan (Aug 9, 2008)

XD if i keep a bottle of cold water in a 30C room, it doesnt mean the water will be 30C , Callum, your logic seems incorrect


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

unlucky crazycallum but....


I WIN woooo :no1: <-me, you ->:blah:



hahaha. Im number 1, im number 1 (would be so much more effective if you could see the dance im doing)

hey wheres ash at the mo? he'd love this


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

Mike's lost it.

Ash is on holiday. :bash:


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## luke123 (Apr 13, 2008)

mike515 said:


> unlucky crazycallum but....
> 
> 
> I WIN woooo :no1: <-me, you ->:blah:
> ...


 hes in majorca:2thumb:


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## crazycallum (Sep 11, 2008)

if you read, i'v already said dont put cold water in and make sure its warm.... some people really are pathetic


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

crazycallum said:


> if you read, i'v already said dont put cold water in and make sure its warm.... some people really are pathetic


there's a difference between cold water and temperate water.
there's a difference between warm water and tropical water.

Learn it.


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## crazycallum (Sep 11, 2008)

so your saying even though i can keep the water in my betta's tank at least 22c without a heater i still need one?


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

crazycallum said:


> so your saying even though i can keep the water in my betta's tank at least 22c without a heater i still need one?


Yes, to keep the temperature stable which reduces stress. Also, 22 really isnt that high for bettas, they like it about 75-80 F ime.


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## Trillian (Jul 14, 2008)

Esfa said:


> they like it about 75-80 F ime.


Which translates to about 26C, in my money.


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

crazycallum said:


> if you read, i'v already said dont put cold water in and make sure its warm.... *some people really are pathetic*


 
yeah i am. but your an idiot so I still win :no1:


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## Shelly24 (Aug 28, 2008)

just to add to the debate.....

my LFS who usually are very good with all types of fish do keep their siamese fighters in cold water... they actually have 1 male in each tank swimming around with goldfish and fan tails!
I personally have always kept my bettas in tropical tanks (to be honest never had much luck with them for some reason) but had i of listened to my LFS i would of had them in coldwater.

This debate is also relevant to danios and white cloud mountain minnows. They can live quite happily in coldwater tanks, I had a group of 6 WCMM in a small nano tank i set up and they were fine for years however in most LFS they are kept in tropical tanks.


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

Shelly24 said:


> This debate is also relevant to danios and white cloud mountain minnows. They can live quite happily in coldwater tanks, I had a group of 6 WCMM in a small nano tank i set up and they were fine for years however in most LFS they are kept in tropical tanks.


The difference with these is that they actually are sub-tropical fish. Bettas are tropical.


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

Shelly24 said:


> just to add to the debate.....
> 
> my LFS who usually are very good with all types of fish do keep their siamese fighters in cold water... they actually have 1 male in each tank swimming around with goldfish and fan tails!
> I personally have always kept my bettas in tropical tanks (to be honest never had much luck with them for some reason) but had i of listened to my LFS i would of had them in coldwater.
> ...


 
yeah but mountain minnows and danios are different. they are from areas where the summers are tropical but the winters are cold. In captivity they do best if you replicate seasonal changes by raising the temp up to a peak 'summer' and back down for a winter. But will thrive in either.

fighters are purely tropical. they do not have a significant winter that is below 22 degrees.

Lets look at an example for this website. Say a leopard gecko. They would probably live at room temp. Would this be healthy for them though? No it wouldn't. Their bodies wouldn't function correctly, raising risk of disease, reduction of appetite, increased stress, lethargy etc. You wouldn't do that. So why do it to a fish.

the only way you can keep fish without a heater is to heat the room to the required water temp. My fish room is at a steady 29 degrees 24 hours a day. This keeps the tanks at around 25-7 degrees. Which is still tropical conditions.


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## crazycallum (Sep 11, 2008)

so your telling everyone to use heaters in there tanks but you dont? I WIN I WIN


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

yeah but I heat the :censor: room.


do you have any idea what a fishroom is. It's a room full of tanks yeah. Which means that it's far too expensive to buy and run individual heaters.

Most shops with a seperate fish room heat the room not the indivdual tanks.

All my fish are from the same area of the world mostly. And all will live and breed and the same temperature. So it's far cheaper to heat the room with central heating system (like a house one).

When triggering breeding in certain species I use coolers or heaters to fine tune the temperature.



To have one individual tank in a house you would need a heater. Not many people would want to pay the heating bills for a whole house at 25 plus degrees, nor would many people want to live like that.

I don't use heaters, because the room essentially is the heater you [email protected] Don't start trying to beat people who clearly know way more than you do.


start on Esfa he's more your level lol. (that's a joke for esfa not you)


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

Bettas come from a tropical climate and therefore do need a constant temp. We keep all ours at 27c and it is raised to 30c for breeding.

Bettas thrive on heat, and will become increasingly listless when the water temperature falls below 24c.


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## crazycallum (Sep 11, 2008)

sorry mike but i do win you dont use a heater in your tank so you clearly dont need one


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## elrond (Dec 18, 2007)

crazycallum said:


> sorry mike but i do win you dont use a heater in your tank so you clearly dont need one


 
thats be beacause hes got a heated room you muppet:bash:
so he doesnt need them, if its not heated them yes they will need a heater.


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

elrond said:


> thats be beacause hes got a heated room you muppet:bash:
> so he doesnt need them, if its not heated them yes they will need a heater.


 
don't bother.

clearly just another one of those dicks who sign up here to start arguments.


nevermind. Esfa was like that once lol. We soon broke him


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## elrond (Dec 18, 2007)

LOLS:lol2:
and just to rub it in here mine ,BTW have turned heater down a little.


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## Tropical Nate (Jul 17, 2008)

aww that beautiful i have one the same colour and recently started looking bored and not doing much but i notices the temp was 23 *runs to kitchen and turns up the heater* oh i hope this works thats my pride and joy in that tank


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## Shelly24 (Aug 28, 2008)

mike515 said:


> Most shops with a seperate fish room heat the room not the indivdual tanks.


another fish shop i use have a fish room... i cant even breathe in there its so humid. and with the amount of tanks they have in there it would cost a fortune to heat all tanks inidividually. 

i think this guy is clearly just having a laugh and causing arguements for the sake of it as his life is obviously that dull :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

think he's given up now. That's a shame I was enjoying it


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## elrond (Dec 18, 2007)

mike515 said:


> think he's given up now. That's a shame I was enjoying it


 
TBH so was i !


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## bullet tooth t0ny (Apr 24, 2008)

what do you know any way mike.:lol2::lol2:

hows your fish doing mate.


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

pretty good. I've got most of the pairs spilt at the mo. Can't keep up with them so stopped it for a bit.

Hows all your new stuff going?


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## bullet tooth t0ny (Apr 24, 2008)

to be honest mate,not had much time for them this weekend.just made sure they have had a good feed each day.they seem fine but you dont know what goes on when your back is turned.i love getting new fish but not keen adding to the collection.i think you know what i mean by that.lol


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## Trillian (Jul 14, 2008)

crazycallum said:


> so your saying even though i can keep the water in my betta's tank at least 22c without a heater i still need one?


Just wondering what you do in winter when the room temperature drops significantly when the central heating isn't on? That's where a heater keeps the temperature stable, thus avoiding any shock to the fish. :hmm:



Shelly24 said:


> This debate is also relevant to danios and white cloud mountain minnows. They can live quite happily in coldwater tanks, I had a group of 6 WCMM in a small nano tank i set up and they were fine for years however in most LFS they are kept in tropical tanks.


Well whatever about Zebra Danios, WCMM are physiologically better adapted to coldwater conditions. The clue is in the name - "mountain minnows" i.e. their natural habitat is coldwater mountain streams...: victory:

I've seen Bettas kept in both "room temperature" and heated tanks. The difference in behaviour was significant. Whereas the fish in the heated tanks were animated and alert, the ones in the non-heated tanks were lethargic and sluggish. No contest really IMO. :whistling2:


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