# APH - Natural vs Kids bedroom



## MrJsk (Jul 29, 2012)

I have noticed and asked myself why do people keep them in a setup that couldn't be anymore unnatural!? I am NOT suggesting it is wrong in anyway it is just new to me so I am just asking out of curiosity! 

Why do people keep there hedgehogs in a set up similar to a kids bed room (toy story wallpaper, pink cushions and matching wall paper, blankets) like the majority of those in this thread: Set ups (pic heavy)

Why are their set ups not more influenced by something similar to what would be their natural habitat!?


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

I don't like those fleecy-fluffy setups at all, they just look wrong to me! Especially when you see that Tenrec's are often kept in naturalistic setups. But it's the done thing, just how you're told to handle everydayfor at least an hour (which in my opinion is rubbish).


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## LizardFTI (Dec 2, 2006)

I have never seen anything quite like some of those setups. Arent they all too bare? I don't know too much about APH, but I know when I was rehabilitating native UK ones, their setups were *much* more full and had more to play with/hide in etc.


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## MrJsk (Jul 29, 2012)

vgorst said:


> I don't like those fleecy-fluffy setups at all, they just look wrong to me! Especially when you see that Tenrec's are often kept in naturalistic setups. But it's the done thing, just how you're told to handle everydayfor at least an hour (which in my opinion is rubbish).


Hmm it doesn't make sense to me.. yeah it looks very nice and is pretty to look at for the owner but what benefit is that to the hedgehog, none! 

Surely a natural setup would be much more beneficial to the hedgehog!?


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## MrJsk (Jul 29, 2012)

ELZ1985 said:


> I have never seen anything quite like some of those setups. Arent they all too bare? I don't know too much about APH, but I know when I was rehabilitating native UK ones, their setups were *much* more full and had more to play with/hide in etc.


To be honest I am no expert either, nor do I own a hedgehog.. but those set ups on that forum just got me thinking.....


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

MrJsk said:


> Hmm it doesn't make sense to me.. yeah it looks very nice and is pretty to look at for the owner but what benefit is that to the hedgehog, none!
> 
> Surely a natural setup would be much more beneficial to the hedgehog!?



Many owners don't actually bother with enrichment, the hedgehogs have a wheel and food and a handle everyday. Done. I am generalising a bit though, I know plenty of owners that try to enrich the animals.

Mine gets plenty of enrichment but does not have a naturalistic enclosure (nothing like on that thread though!). Naturalistic enclosures are all well and good but may not be the safest for the animal and may not even be that enriching.


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## MrJsk (Jul 29, 2012)

vgorst said:


> Many owners don't actually bother with enrichment, the hedgehogs have a wheel and food and a handle everyday. Done. I am generalising a bit though, I know plenty of owners that try to enrich the animals.
> 
> Mine gets plenty of enrichment but does not have a naturalistic enclosure (nothing like on that thread though!). Naturalistic enclosures are all well and good but may not be the safest for the animal and may not even be that enriching.


Do you have a picture of your enclosure you could post or have a picture already posted somewhere!? But if they have adapted to survive in that environment in the wild why would they struggle in captivity!?

I am just used to seeing natural set ups (lizard section) so to see some of those enclosures on that thread is a bit alien to me! :lol2:


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## clark60 (Mar 18, 2013)

i dont keep mine like that and to be honest they dont imo need to be kept on fleece they are a resultof breeding two diffrent species together and as such are not in the wild but why turn them in to someting freeky ....


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## MrJsk (Jul 29, 2012)

clark60 said:


> i dont keep mine like that and to be honest they dont imo need to be kept on fleece they are a resultof breeding two diffrent species together and as such are not in the wild but why turn them in to someting freeky ....


ohh I see, never knew that! Might explain why I was struggling to find pictures of a natural African habitat for hedgehogs!

Edit: How do you keep yours!?


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## LizardFTI (Dec 2, 2006)

clark60 said:


> i dont keep mine like that and to be honest they dont imo need to be kept on fleece they are a resultof breeding two diffrent species together and as such are not in the wild but why turn them in to someting freeky ....


I was under the impression the APHs in the pet trade were 4-toed hegehogs (Atelerix albiventris)?


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

MrJsk said:


> Do you have a picture of your enclosure you could post or have a picture already posted somewhere!? But if they have adapted to survive in that environment in the wild why would they struggle in captivity!?
> 
> I am just used to seeing natural set ups (lizard section) so to see some of those enclosures on that thread is a bit alien to me! :lol2:


Yeah I can get a picture later. I use fleece blankets as substrate (until I move home and then it's going to be finacard) but the tank itself is stuffed with ripped up newspaper so you can't even see the blankets. It allows her to forage (I throw food in there most nights), has a wheel, treat balls and I'll often rub smells around the enclosure (usually herbs) that she spends ages sniffing and annointing over. Nowhere near naturalistic but she's always busy in there!

As said above ^ there is no natural habitat - they were bred as pets, but I don't see why that means people should keep them in such sterile, bare conditions.


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## Jamiioo (May 8, 2010)

I have 2 hogs and have done for three years, and i tried the fleece method at one point and didn't really like it, I think natural substrates where they can forage look so much more natural and better too tbh.

I think the thing with fleece is that alot of people can get their hogs "litter trained" meaning they will only poo or pee in a certain place which is where their hog runs on the wheel, so a tray can be placed under it, so basically using a fleece is pretty much easy that way in that you can just quickly remove it for a wash and replace it fairly easily, i wouldn't say fleeces work with hogs that poo everywhere. 

Although i use substrate, i still give my hogs pouches/fleece where they sleep in/like to make nests with (If i leave a square of fleece outside the sleeping area, they WILL take it into their bed with them, same with soft toys - i must try film this!) So that's why mine get both fleece and a mini soft toy or 2 : victory:

Mine have lots of enrichment, soft toys, jingly cat balls, a tunnel, wheel, sand in their litter tray which apparently they like rolling in, no idea if this is true though, maybe they do sometimes.. 

People will say that hogs don't take interest in their toys, so this is why they don't bother, personally i think this is untrue, mine seem to play with theirs :lol2:


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## Jamiioo (May 8, 2010)

ELZ1985 said:


> I was under the impression the APHs in the pet trade were 4-toed hegehogs (Atelerix albiventris)?


African Pygmy hogs are a hybrid of the White-bellied or Four-toed Hedgehog (Atelerix albiventris) and the Algerian Hedgehog (A. algirus) apparently


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## MrJsk (Jul 29, 2012)

clark60 said:


> i dont keep mine like that and to be honest they dont imo need to be kept on fleece they are a resultof breeding two diffrent species together and as such are not in the wild but why turn them in to someting freeky ....





vgorst said:


> As said above ^ there is no natural habitat - they were bred as pets, but I don't see why that means people should keep them in such sterile, bare conditions.





Jamiioo said:


> African Pygmy hogs are a hybrid of the White-bellied or Four-toed Hedgehog (Atelerix albiventris) and the Algerian Hedgehog (A. algirus) apparently


Surely if this is the case then they can be housed the same as or similar to the other two species which they come from would be.. Or are they kept like this too!?


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## clark60 (Mar 18, 2013)

it depends on the owners.but its the cross Aph that most people keep and it seems that because others keep them on fleece they do as well. the hedgehog gets nothing out of these "play room" type enclousers in my opinion


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

We kept ours in large indoor rabbit cages on shavings and never had a problem


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## clark60 (Mar 18, 2013)

same as me i even give mine hay as bedding.i will be putting my new hogs in vivs i think they are easier to keep warm i live in a cold house.


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## MrJsk (Jul 29, 2012)

selina20 said:


> We kept ours in large indoor rabbit cages on shavings and never had a problem


Hmm see I have heard bad thing bout wood shavings! 



clark60 said:


> same as me i even give mine hay as bedding.i will be putting my new hogs in vivs i think they are easier to keep warm i live in a cold house.


Yeah I agree with you there about vivariums and warmth, up until recently I was always to believe that vivariums were a no go! I have learnt though that as long as it provides good ventilation then it is OK! 

I suggest (if you havn't already) have a browse out of interest http://pygmyhogsuk.forumandco.com/forum soo much information!!


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## Jamiioo (May 8, 2010)

I use vivarium and would recommend them  As for them being warmer, not always true, they can trap cold air as well as hot air, so unless you have a constantly toasty house make sure ya have a heat mat or che on the go : victory:

To be honest, sometimes it annoys me when people are all "YOU CAN'T USE WOODSHAVINGS!" The reasons for this are A) Apparently due to dust etc, it poses the risk of respiratory infections being higher than other substrates, and the second reason i have heard of is B) Sometimes man hogs can get bits stuck in their, ya know, causing irritation.

I know of a fair few people who use wood shavings and have done with no problems at all, I have used it myself in the past with no problems, and i would again. I think the dust risk poses a threat with a good few substrates tbh, i mainly use care fresh, but at one point the dust that had accumulated on the vivarium glass from that, i found to be worse than wood shavings!


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## MrJsk (Jul 29, 2012)

Jamiioo said:


> I use vivarium and would recommend them  As for them being warmer, not always true, they can trap cold air as well as hot air, so unless you have a constantly toasty house make sure ya have a heat mat or che on the go : victory:
> 
> To be honest, sometimes it annoys me when people are all "YOU CAN'T USE WOODSHAVINGS!" The reasons for this are A) Apparently due to dust etc, it poses the risk of respiratory infections being higher than other substrates, and the second reason i have heard of is B) Sometimes man hogs can get bits stuck in their, ya know, causing irritation.
> 
> I know of a fair few people who use wood shavings and have done with no problems at all, I have used it myself in the past with no problems, and i would again. I think the dust risk poses a threat with a good few substrates tbh, i mainly use care fresh, but at one point the dust that had accumulated on the vivarium glass from that, i found to be worse than wood shavings!


That is true never thought about the cold air, but I was talking about a vivarium with some kind of heat source! 

Kind of agree as I too get pissed off sometimes when somebody tries to tell you that you're wrong for doing this and that.. I believe that yes you maybe able to do something that way but there are more than likely 100 other was of doing it that are just as effective or even better! But I can now understand why people decide on using the fleece blankets as sometimes it is just better to not take a risk!


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

It's no secret that I've argued this point for years now. It's silly, childish, and in no way beneficial to the animal. It's the equivalent of adults using baby talk in everyday conversation.

Hedgehogs are animals, not baby substitutes, and not fragile little dolls. Their husbandry should reflect that. There are no advantages to being kept on fluffy blankets and having silly wallpapered enclosures. Those that do will rage against me for saying this, but they're complete lunatics!:blowup::roll2:


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## MrJsk (Jul 29, 2012)

mrcriss said:


> It's no secret that I've argued this point for years now. It's silly, childish, and in no way beneficial to the animal. It's the equivalent of adults using baby talk in everyday conversation.
> 
> Hedgehogs are animals, not baby substitutes, and not fragile little dolls. Their husbandry should reflect that. There are no advantages to being kept on fluffy blankets and having silly wallpapered enclosures. Those that do will rage against me for saying this, but they're complete lunatics!:blowup::roll2:


:lol2: madness


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

And I don't buy that "oh, but they don't occur in the wild" argument. Just because they're a hybrid, doesn't mean that they need fluffy blankets! Various species of hedgehog do perfectly well in extremely dusty habitats in the wild, so I'm sure that your average APH can cope with a few bloody wood shavings!:2wallbang:

Having met a couple of these nutters in person, I can honestly tell you that I wouldn't trust them to look after ANY of my animals for even a day. My coati would probably end up with a perm and a pink ribbon around his tail!


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

MrJsk said:


> Hmm see I have heard bad thing bout wood shavings!


Theres always bad things about wood shavings but if i can use them for my horse who has respiratory problems then why cant i use them for a hedgehog? Ours were fine on them and we never ever had a problem. The thought of clearing up poo filled fleece is imo grim


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## PresqueVu (Jul 27, 2008)

I agree that where people end up with themes, and wallpaper, cuddly toys etc it gets rather daft. The animal obviously doesn't benefit. However where it isn't actually affecting them (i.e their wooden house is decorated like peter pan, or they've made the effort to make every accessory a certain colour) it seems harmless. Not something I'm at all into it myself, I hasten to add!

I would add that I use fleece in places but please don't lump everyone in as fleece = crazy decorating and fluffy toys. Fleece is usually about half the enclosure, as my guy will have a large foraging tray with megazorb or similar, and then a tray with chinchilla sand that he often rolls in. He has his Wheel, and various cat toys - that he completely ignores. 

The reason I use fleece is to give his feet a break - he only has three, and when I first got him he had been kept on a paper based substrate that he absolutely hated and was very unsettled on. I tried a variety of substrates with him (megazorb/carefresh/aubiose) but he actually calmed down the best, and was the least huffy, with about half of his enclosure as fleece. With a choice of wooden, cardboard, plastic or fleece houses/nests/tunnels - he chose fabric. 

If I had another hedgehog I wouldn't automatically go for fleece of course, but I would say that it can work for some circumstances, and it doesn't follow that anyone using it has to be of the pinky fluffy brigade...just saying...


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## clark60 (Mar 18, 2013)

i think for an animal with special needs maybe,but i think it would manage just as well on shavings


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

PresqueVu said:


> The reason I use fleece is to give his feet a break - he only has three


:banghead: :hmm::roll2::roll2:


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## PresqueVu (Jul 27, 2008)

mrcriss said:


> :banghead: :hmm::roll2::roll2:


Care to explain?


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## PresqueVu (Jul 27, 2008)

Oh I thought this was a place for a reasoned debate. My mistake, it's just another ranting ground for you isn't it?

It doesn't do your arguement any favours when you are that puerile, you know.

For the normal people - I tested various environments for my animal. On all but the fleece, the animal struggled and in some showed signs of distress. I personally, don't put my animals in a position where that happens, should it fall under my control. 

I have in no way suggested fleece should be used for all hedgehogs - foraging is an important behaviour for them, hence my use of a foraging tray to substitute.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

The reason for me not writing a detailed reply, and entering into a frankly bizarre and pointless debate with yet another one of the fluffy brigade, is because I have done this many times before in countless threads, and see little reason in entering into a real discussion about animal husbandry with nutters like this again. Try doing a search on the topic.:bash:

I concede that if the keeper want to put soft crap into the bedding area, then each to their own, but animals' feet are designed to withstand all kinds of terrain. I suggest that those "signs of distress" were either a symptom of something else entirely, or merely a spoilt little animal having a strop because it's used to a ridiculous amount of babying from an overly sentimental keeper! 

Or maybe I'm wrong.....maybe the hybridisation process, _(the reason they'll never be found in the wild, as so many are always thrilled to point out)_, resulted in APH's feet being so delicate, that they fall to pieces at the touch of anything more than the softest cloud!:banghead:

I actually had a dream about this last night, after which I decided to design, make and flog a range of hedgehog socks made from the softest fleecey that has been licked by kittens and dried by the flutter of a butterfly's wing, and I'm going to make a mint from the lot of you!:roll2::roll2::roll2:


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## Rum_Kitty (Jun 14, 2009)

Each to their own. I don't suppose a hedgehog cares much whether its tube is made of purple plastic or woven Seagrass. As long as the cage is big, clean and the hedge has stuff to do in there, I don't think the colour scheme particularly bothers them, or the fact that the viv is wallpapered...And isnt that background you buy for vivs and tanks essentially wall paper too? Not something I'd do but then my lot were hideous mingers when it came to pooping despite my efforts to litter train them, so fleece was out. Mine used to enjoy snorkelling through their bedding so I suppose there is that issue. 

Pretty sure a vivarium or cage for a wild animal is a completely unnatural environment anyway, and the entire keeping of the species is to benefit the owners, not the hedgies. Wood shavings or easibed or whatever you are using isnt exactly natural substrate either. I don't think putting a few bits of wood in there makes them feel like they're at home in the African savannah or whichever African environment they come from.


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## Amy2310 (Feb 28, 2011)

Ours is in a 4 foot vivarium with a ceramic at one end and three hides, to be honest, I treat them like I treat our snakes, I cannot stand these enclosures that have a general ambient temperature and only one hide. I offer 3 hides so she can move around and find a warmer or cooler spot if she wants.
Her hides are 2 pieces of cork back, she loves these and makes tunnels in her substrate to get under them and a cardboard tube filled with a fleece.
Her substrate it repti-card and she burrows into it under her cork bark. 
She has a piece of slate in there which her bowls sit on, I'm going to look at something a bit rougher to try keep her nails shorter, maybe a slab of sandstone or something.
She has a few toys (Cat toys), but she doesn't seem to play with them, other than her wheel which is over a litter tray.
I personally, cannot stand the 'child' like set ups that people have, as fun and cute as they may be it is more for the humans benefit than the hedgehogs.
We get her out every now and then, but she'd much rather curl up and go to sleep when we get her out, unless we have any dog chews around then she goes crazy and attacks them!
She does have a fleece, but that is for when we get her out as she still likes to poop all over us so it's a lot easier to clean that rather than our clothing.


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## Cazzy4 (Aug 16, 2012)

I am planning on getting a hog in the near future, and when I do, I plan to keep the little guy on fleece.

I've always used such bedding as Megazorb and carefresh for all my small animals, but when I got my guinea pigs everyone raved about fleece.

My guinea pig cage is very large, so was costing me an absolute fortune in substrate!

So I looked into fleece and decided to give it a go and I personally wouldn't use anything else now!

It's very cheap to buy, extremely easy to spot clean so helps loads with potty training, when it's dirty you simply put it in the washing machine, hang it out to dry and it's ready for use another day! 

I wouldn't want wallpaper in the viv but I wouldn't want it bare wood either!! I see no harm in a cuddly toy, my piggies love theirs! And they adore the fleece snuggle beds just as much as all my rodents did, but they're also happy with their more natural toys and house and their tray of dust-free shavings I hide food in.

I personally like the ease and cheaper price fleece substrate/beds offers, but I do like to offer them more 'natural' things in their cage as well.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

If i had a quid for every debate about pet monkeys and fleese.
I think i could retire.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Rum_Kitty said:


> Wood shavings or easibed or whatever you are using isnt exactly natural substrate either. I don't think putting a few bits of wood in there makes them feel like they're at home in the African savannah or whichever African environment they come from.


This is rather a silly comment really. Nobody is suggesting we need to recreate the wild habitat for our animals, but at least a loose substrate allows the hedgehog to exhibit natural foraging behaviour, and for the keeper to hide food with a scatter feed! 



Cazzy4 said:


> I am planning on getting a hog in the near future, and when I do, I plan to keep the little guy on fleece.
> 
> It's very cheap to buy, extremely easy to spot clean so helps loads with potty training, when it's dirty you simply put it in the washing machine, hang it out to dry and it's ready for use another day!


Glad to see it's all about what's easiest for you.....so long as you're not inconvenienced, that's the main thing! But by denying your animals a loose substrate, you are also denying them valuable enrichment that no amount of silly useless twee cat toys can make up for!



PETERAROBERTSON said:


> If i had a quid for every debate about pet monkeys and fleese.
> I think i could retire.


Hahahahaha.....all too bloody true mate!:blowup:


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## PresqueVu (Jul 27, 2008)

I was trying to point out there are levels to this issue (as with anything). It doesn't work to generalise and say this person does one aspect - therefore all the rest must follow.

I use a blanket to cover half the enclosure of my single animal, with the rest as carefresh/chinchilla sand - as I saw, I adapted the viv for my animal because I saw signs of distress otherwise. You are welcome to believe that makes me overcautious (by actually having direct observation to draw on, and knowing my own character I'm in a better position to judge this!) but to make a whole host of assumptions based on that is just inaccurate. You won't find me using babytalk, or doing anything daft with fluffy toys and colour schemes.

As a matter of interest, did you contribute to the BEMA species specific guidelines when they were asking for this?

The biggest issue seems to be when you first search for APH guidelines the forums advocating fleece and some of the silliness that *can* follow they do attract the biggest audience. Rather than repeating the same arguements on a forum - and in a way that frankly, just puts people off - you'd be much better setting up and marketing your own website to share pictures of more natural setups, or at the very least giving examples on here. If you've already done this, I haven't noticed?

Cazzy4 - Its definately worth doing some more research before you decide on fleece. It should only be used if it's in the animal's best interests not your own and if cleaning is going to be an issue for you they might not be the best pet for you anyway - they are pretty messy and the wheels get quite horrible. If you do go with it you'll need to provide an alternative for the fact this means they have no chance for foraging. You can fill a large tray with substrate and scatter feed in this as an example.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

PresqueVu said:


> As a matter of interest, did you contribute to the BEMA species specific guidelines when they were asking for this?
> 
> The biggest issue seems to be when you first search for APH guidelines the forums advocating fleece and some of the silliness that *can* follow they do attract the biggest audience. Rather than repeating the same arguements on a forum - and in a way that frankly, just puts people off - you'd be much better setting up and marketing your own website to share pictures of more natural setups, or at the very least giving examples on here. If you've already done this, I haven't noticed?


I assume the quote above was directed towards myself.

No, I haven't contributed to the whole BEMA thing. I'm a very busy man, and have no time to get involved with all that malarky. Apart from anything else, I'm keeping a healthy scepticism about the whole organisation, until I actually see some real action come from it. There have been a ton of "wait and see", and "the wheels are in motion" kinda statements, but not much else as far as I can see.

My own website? Again, I don't have the time or inclination to start up a website devoted to hedgehog care.....apart from anything else, I don't even keep them anymore. Put off in part by the ridiculous fluffy brigade and my reluctance to be associated with them.

My friend told me a jaw-dropping story yesterday about these daft hedghog forums/facebook groups/whatever. Apparently, the admins of one of them have fallen out and another separate group has been formed. They actually tried to make my friend take sides and choose one or the other to be a member of, and got really snotty about it!!!:gasp::roll2: That's the level of maturity we're talking about when dealing with all these APH snobs!


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## ChazzieJo (Jun 14, 2012)

I'm not personally a fan of fleece, I can understand the convenience of it but in my experience, hedgehogs LOVE to forage, I scatter lots of insects in the substrate over night and it gives my girl something to do whilst I’m sleeping (aside from wheel of course). I also imagine it kicks up a stink after a while, and quite frankly, I do enough loads of washing as it is! Mines a fairly ‘natural’ set up, I have a 5ftx3ft, three tiered, custom vivarium and she uses every inch of it running around, I use Finacard as my substrate and I love it, it’s not dusty and although it’s cardboard, it’s not sharp. Personally I wouldn’t use woodshavings, but only because I’m very conscious of respiratory infections particularly after rescuing two very ill rats who were being kept on an unsuitable substrate, I’ve also seen first hand the infections that can escalate through it being stuck in boys parts. Everyone has their own methods and ways of doing things; ultimately as long as the animal is healthy, then I can’t see a problem. 
:2thumb:


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

I think these types of setups have their place in that they do get children interested and I don't think the hedgehogs give a hoot either way provided they have a wheel, warm shelter, something to have a dig about in and time out of the enclosure.

That said, I am not sure whether it is the right message to send to youngsters who might start to see the animal as some kind of toy instead of enjoying the species for what it is. 

Pretty sure most children can be kept interested with well thought out naturalistic setups.


Alternatively, if the setup is for an adult, then I guess that would be down to your classic child replacement syndrome..


Either way, I don't see the harm provided the animal's needs are well met.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

mrcriss said:


> I assume the quote above was directed towards myself.
> 
> *No, I haven't contributed to the whole BEMA thing. I'm a very busy man, and have no time to get involved with all that malarky. Apart from anything else, I'm keeping a healthy scepticism about the whole organisation, until I actually see some real action come from it. *There have been a ton of "wait and see", and "the wheels are in motion" kinda statements, but not much else as far as I can see.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately it's that sort sort of apathy which makes every process BEMA goes through, take such a lot longer...input from keepers has (on the whole) been pretty much like extracting blood from a stone for some species! However, I think we all understand the scepticism, it's kind of a catch 22 situation. One thing I would say is that the accreditation process has already started, and the guidelines and criteria are pretty strict. :whistling2:

My PERSONAL views on APH 'habitats' is that if people want to pretty up their enclosures/vivs then that's entirely up to them, but it shouldn't be done purely for their convenience and certainly not to the detriment of the hog - ie, foraging opportunities should be available, as well as plenty of other enrichment APPROPRIATE to the species. 

Also, if what you have said about the different groups falling out is true, well that's very sad indeed. Many groups affiliate and work together, there shouldn't be any 'competition' when your aim is supposedly to improve the animals' captive welfare.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Pouchie said:


> That said, I am not sure whether it is the right message to send to youngsters who might start to see the animal as some kind of toy instead of enjoying the species for what it is.


That is a good point!


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Pouchie said:


> That said, I am not sure whether it is the right message to send to youngsters who might start to see the animal as some kind of toy instead of enjoying the species for what it is.


Very true. I'm surprised that advert didn't have more of an impact with hedgehog sales (maybe it did). But I don't really think they're a suitable pet for a kid anyway.

I don't mind the wallpaper thing.....it's weird, but not detrimental to the hogs. It's those bloody fleeces that I can't stand.



5plusmany said:


> Unfortunately it's that sort sort of apathy which makes every process BEMA goes through, take such a lot longer...input from keepers has (on the whole) been pretty much like extracting blood from a stone for some species! However, I think we all understand the scepticism, it's kind of a catch 22 situation. One thing I would say is that the accreditation process has already started, and the guidelines and criteria are pretty strict. :whistling2:



I'm not apathetic at all....quite the opposite! I read all the posts relating to BEMA's activities with interest, but I feel we're still not really any the wiser as to any real action the organisation has taken as yet. As such, I don't really feel I have a lot of time to donate to something I feel unclear about.....it all seems a but hush hush.
I also guess that most of BEMA's activities are being played out over the internet on forums etc. But the thing is, most exotic keepers don't use forums....aren't those the ones you should be targeting more? Also, the most respected and experienced keepers I know from whom a load of good advice could be got, wouldn't dream of being on RFUK. 
And as for the accreditation scheme thingy.....well I assume there would be some sort of fee for having the inspection done and award made. The thing is, what business, after having been inspected by the council and the RSCPA, would then request and pay for yet another inspection?

So as I said, I'm not apathetic at all, because I'm following BEMA's actions as much as I can or am allowed by it's secretive committee. But I am a little sceptical (understandably I think), because I feel that we've all been kept largely in the dark. And so it's for these reasons that I've so far neglected to take part or contribute. 

I hope you understand that I don't mean this to be all argumentative (and sorry for hijacking the thread - although I'm sure this is more interesting than yet another APH substrate debate), but that's just what I'm thinking on the subject, as I suspect others are too.: victory:


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## Kelfezond (Nov 20, 2010)

My hog is in a natural setup 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

I'll PM you Chris, I wouldn't want to get in the way of a debate on fleece :lol2:


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## Cazzy4 (Aug 16, 2012)

I've tried various substrates for my animals, even types like megazorb and carefresh were too dusty! I had a naked rat male that got a bit stuck up his you-know-what and got a respiratory infection at the same time (along with some of my furries) when I tried megazorb, god that was a costly vet trip and not to mention it nearly killed my poor little boy! 

I've had no problems since switching to fleece and my animals have all been a lot happier with it.

I also find I don't have to give them full clean outs every 2 days as I did with the shaving types, so now they don't have to be messed about with as much and more time can be spent playing instead!

And because I don't have to constantly buy tons of shavings anymore, I have more money to put towards vet bills and new toys for my fur-babies!

For me and my guinea pigs fleece has been so much better than shavings. So their cages are cleaner, better for them, and they don't lose out on foraging in loose substrate as 1/3 of their cages is shavings. 
And although I do still have to spend ages making the dust-free shavings even more dust-free (just to be safe), I wouldn't want to drop it completely and stop them being able to forage unless I absolutely had to, as thats one of their favourite past-times!

When it comes to my animals I always make sure their needs come first, and I think I'm giving them the best of both worlds this way, and the beneifts to me are purely an added bonus!

I never said anyone should use either, as I'm using both. I just said fleece really does have it's uses and that's not always just about making the cage pretty. 
But I have used both and so know the massive downsides of shaving type beddings, so while I do still use it in the cages and hide food in it to encourage natural foraging behaviours, fleece has been better in all other respects for the animals, so now my cages are mostly fleece but with loose substrate areas in them too.

Obiously for really destructive animals like rats fleece bedding isn't really possible, so thats just shaving substrate in those cages.
For hairless rats that are very susceptible to respiratory infections I keep on newspaper and shredded paper bedding and clean-outs were every 1-2 days, I never risked using shavings in their cages again.
But for animals like indoor guinea pigs a fleece cage with a loose-substrate foraging area has been ideal, and I've done a lot of research on hogs and talked to quite a few owners about how they keep them, and so I believe that this mixed approach would be good for hogs too.

It's never about what is best for me, but what would be best for the individual animal, and so I'm going to try the mixed type cage for my hog and if he isn't happy then I'll try something else until he is, but from what other owners have said it seems to be the best thing to try first.


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## MrJsk (Jul 29, 2012)

Thanks for your replies! good to see peoples different views of bedding : victory:


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

a lot of the time its trial and error with what suits you and your pet best - I cant abide the whole 'no this is wrong temper tantrum thing' all animals are different and what suits one may not suit another. As long as the animal is safe and happy thats the main thing and who cares if people want to stick wallpapers etc in - my ex husband blew up pictures of his football team stadium and stuck it onto his hogs cage walls - did my head in - he thought it was great - did the hog care & did it affect him in any way?!! NOPE! not one iota! so therefore who is anyone to make a judgement on whether its right or wrong - as long as the hog is happy and well cared for and the owner is also happy with the animal and with spending time prettying up a cage then carry on! I'm personally a fan of finacard but I do use fleece for some of my hogs also with squares of fleece in the bedding area - all depends on what the hog prefers and .. yet again it comes down to trial and error of what works best so its worth trying different things


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Kelfezond said:


> My hog is in a natural setup
> 
> Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2


How have you arranged it? Real curiosity, here. I don't have any hedgehogs either (yet!), but i do think they are fascinating.


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## MrJsk (Jul 29, 2012)

For the people who said that they do not live in the wild, what do you say to this!? (there are many, many, many other websites with information on African pygmy hedgehogs n the wild)

African Pygmy Hedgehog

ADW: Atelerix albiventris: INFORMATION

African Pygmy Hedgehog

Also, if this is the case.. where did all this "kids bedroom" come from!!??


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## ChazzieJo (Jun 14, 2012)

MrJsk said:


> For the people who said that they do not live in the wild, what do you say to this!? (there are many, many, many other websites with information on African pygmy hedgehogs n the wild)
> 
> African Pygmy Hedgehog
> 
> ...


No. The African Pygmy Hedgehog is a cross species of the four toed and algerian hedgehog, they are not found in the wild.


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## MrJsk (Jul 29, 2012)

ChazzieJo said:


> No. The African Pygmy Hedgehog is a cross species of the four toed and algerian hedgehog, they are not found in the wild.


This is what I thought / was told. But then I asked about hibernation and people were like "in the wild" I googled about a bit.. and there is websites telling you about African Pygmy Hedgehogs in the wild.....


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

ChazzieJo said:


> No. The African Pygmy Hedgehog is a cross species of the four toed and algerian hedgehog, they are not found in the wild.


This is something that hedgehog people LOVE waxing lyrical about to prove a rather weak point.

But I ask you this.....is it not feasible that a hybrid species derived from two very similar wild species has damn near the same husbandry requirements as the original two ancestors?

Or does the hybridisation process suddenly make the resulting offspring into utter wimps that painfully suffer without fluffy fleece underfoot?


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## MrJsk (Jul 29, 2012)

The hedgehog we know was the African Pygmy is a cross breed from an Algerian Hedgehog and a Four Toed hedgehog, this has been done in captivity to give the best 'pet' possible. Hence why you some times get Algerian colours coming through. So they are do not live in the wild but their ancestors do. Hence why some people talk about them living in the wild as the two species they were crossed from can still be found living wild today

This seems to be the best answer I have gotten from somebody from a hedgehog group on facebook, so I am going to go with that :thumb:


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## ChazzieJo (Jun 14, 2012)

mrcriss said:


> This is something that hedgehog people LOVE waxing lyrical about to prove a rather weak point.
> 
> But I ask you this.....is it not feasible that a hybrid species derived from two very similar wild species has damn near the same husbandry requirements as the original two ancestors?
> 
> Or does the hybridisation process suddenly make the resulting offspring into utter wimps that painfully suffer without fluffy fleece underfoot?


Erm... where did I say they didn't have similar requirements? Where did I say they were best kept on fleece liners? 

I was quite simply answering a question somebody asked in regards to whether this particular species is found in the wild.

If you bothered to read my OP, I actually answered that I prefer to use more natural substrates such as finacard, I'm not a fan of fleece liners at all, although each to their own.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

ChazzieJo said:


> Erm... where did I say they didn't have similar requirements? Where did I say they were best kept on fleece liners?
> 
> I was quite simply answering a question somebody asked in regards to whether this particular species is found in the wild.
> 
> If you bothered to read my OP, I actually answered that I prefer to use more natural substrates such as finacard, I'm not a fan of fleece liners at all, although each to their own.


Calm down dear and stop getting defensive please. Did I at any point say it was you? Don't think so.


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