# Brexit - animal transport



## Mr Madagascar

I am being asked frequently about how Brexit will affect bringing reptiles and amphibians to / from Europe to the UK. 
The simple answer, like so much around the issue, is that nobody knows for certain how legislation will pan out.
There is a risk that, if the border with the EU becomes more 'hard', it may be much more difficult and expensive to move reptiles between the then separated areas. Paperwork may be required that isn't now.
No-one can say, as yet.

If that happens it may make many species harder to obtain in the UK and more expensive.
No-one knows.

There are only a couple of shows before Brexit comes into effect.
Why take the risk?
If you want something the best course of action is to transport it now.

www.interep.co.uk


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## ian14

CITES species will require export and import permits. So all purchases of pythons and boas for a start will need to be planned for as correct CITES permits will be needed. It is my understanding that this is likely to be rigorously enforced by UK Border Agency.


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## Chileryx

Is that something we know that is definitely going to happen? I feared something like this could be on the cards. The UK hobby is already dire when it comes to uncommon Boas and Pythons, I hope this won't impact these niches hard, but...


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## ian14

Chileryx said:


> Is that something we know that is definitely going to happen? I feared something like this could be on the cards. The UK hobby is already dire when it comes to uncommon Boas and Pythons, I hope this won't impact these niches hard, but...


Yes it will. The only reason that we don't have this currently is because we are in the EU and an agreement was made that due to free movement once a species enters an EU country no further permits are needed to move within the EU. 
But in March 2019 we cease to be a member, but are still a CITES member. Therefore permits will be needed to import and export Appendix I and II species.
What's isn't clear is if we will revert to the pure form of CITES and use Appendices or stick to the EU CITES Annexes. There are a few very subtle differences between them.


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## Chileryx

As I had feared. Hopefully it's still doable for those hobbyists with uncommon Boids and Varanids. The morph obsessed folk into their Balls and Boa will have it easier I'm sure. 

Are you aware of or have any theories as to how Brexit would effect driving back from Hamm expos with non-CITES species?


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## ian14

Chileryx said:


> As I had feared. Hopefully it's still doable for those hobbyists with uncommon Boids and Varanids. The morph obsessed folk into their Balls and Boa will have it easier I'm sure.
> 
> Are you aware of or have any theories as to how Brexit would effect driving back from Hamm expos with non-CITES species?


The only restriction on international trade is CITES. Non CITES species will have the exact same import requirements as they do now.
Ironically it is the ball morph hobby that will be hardest hit, as they will need permits to import from EU shows.


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## Chileryx

Ball pythons are imported to the UK from the US and have a large industry behind them to make imports a regular occurrence. It'll make life harder for the breeders but it's the obscure species that don't have that widespread and commercialized presence that will suffer from this more, especially in the long term. This has been the way it is between the EU and US hobbies for decades. I was really hoping the UK hobby wouldn't be isolated like this too, but sounds like it will be. :bash:


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## harry python

Easiest solution to get something back to the Uk is to arrange for one of the many herpers from the republic of Ireland to bring it back for you. In the event of no deal I am sure they will make a few quid from being able to do this.


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## ian14

harry python said:


> Easiest solution to get something back to the Uk is to arrange for one of the many herpers from the republic of Ireland to bring it back for you. In the event of no deal I am sure they will make a few quid from being able to do this.


Just what the hobby needs - someone publically suggesting smuggling animals!! 
And how would that work. You would still need an export and import permit to get them from Republic of Ireland into the UK. Any smuggled in this way will end up getting seized. 
I can guarantee that there will be a big increase in scrutiny when it comes to this. UKBF are well aware of Hamm and Houten, and all the little tricks people try!
New legislation creates an offence of transporting species, not just buying and selling them.
It also allows for the Home Office to determine which ports are allowed to admit CITES species, which means there will be specially trained customs officers there to inspect all imports.


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## harry python

ian14 said:


> Just what the hobby needs - someone publically suggesting smuggling animals!!
> And how would that work. You would still need an export and import permit to get them from Republic of Ireland into the UK. Any smuggled in this way will end up getting seized.
> I can guarantee that there will be a big increase in scrutiny when it comes to this. UKBF are well aware of Hamm and Houten, and all the little tricks people try!
> New legislation creates an offence of transporting species, not just buying and selling them.
> It also allows for the Home Office to determine which ports are allowed to admit CITES species, which means there will be specially trained customs officers there to inspect all imports.


UKBF are struggling to keep illegal migrants swamping the UK without extra responsibilities for animal catching.


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## ian14

harry python said:


> UKBF are struggling to keep illegal migrants swamping the UK without extra responsibilities for animal catching.


They have had a specialist team enforcing CITES for many years.
The new legislation also allows for specific ports to be designated for CITES imports and exports, so trained and experienced specialist staff will always be on hand.


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## Marcia

This is certainly baffling. How will this affect people bringing animals into the UK from Hamm? Although I believe the next one will be the last before the laws change although I could be wrong.
I've only ever had a small handful of geckos brought into the UK from Canada via Hamm but that was a few years ago but either way, I'm keeping an eye on this thread for more info as it'll develop.


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## ian14

Marcia said:


> This is certainly baffling. How will this affect people bringing animals into the UK from Hamm? Although I believe the next one will be the last before the laws change although I could be wrong.
> I've only ever had a small handful of geckos brought into the UK from Canada via Hamm but that was a few years ago but either way, I'm keeping an eye on this thread for more info as it'll develop.


It's not baffling at all. The current situation is due to the UK being an EU member state, and with the EU having no internal barriers to trade, this includes movement of CITES species. 
When we leave we are no longer part of that trade and so permits will be required. 
This may of course still change but my understanding is that the UK leaves, any movement of CITES species will require an import permit from the UK, and given the model that the EU have, an export permit will also have to issued from them.


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## Marcia

ian14 said:


> It's not baffling at all. The current situation is due to the UK being an EU member state, and with the EU having no internal barriers to trade, this includes movement of CITES species.
> When we leave we are no longer part of that trade and so permits will be required.
> This may of course still change but my understanding is that the UK leaves, any movement of CITES species will require an import permit from the UK, and given the model that the EU have, an export permit will also have to issued from them.


So would you still require permits to bring animals into the country if they are not CITES species? I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, that's why I said I was a bit baffled :lol2:


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## ian14

Marcia said:


> So would you still require permits to bring animals into the country if they are not CITES species? I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, that's why I said I was a bit baffled :lol2:


No, if they are not CITES then you don't need CITES permits.


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## colinm

Surely we will still need export and import documentation for non CITES species, much as we did before 1993 ?


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## ian14

colinm said:


> Surely we will still need export and import documentation for non CITES species, much as we did before 1993 ?


I have no idea. I will try to get a definitive answer.


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## colinm

I suspect that all of this depends on what deal the UK gets, if any.


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## Matt Harris

The legislation which enforces CITES in the UK is being amended, so depending on how much detail you want to go into it, here is the explanatory memorandum for the changes in legislation:-


https://assets.publishing.service.g...ra__Amendment___EU_Exit__Regulations_2018.pdf


The Statutory Instrument which would amend COTES is also available, but it's fairly impenetrable:-


https://assets.publishing.service.g...ra__Amendment___EU_Exit__Regulations_2018.pdf


DEFRA have produced a Technical Note setting out what will happen if there's a 'no-deal' Brexit:-


https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...s-protected-by-cites-if-theres-no-brexit-deal


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## ian14

It already has been amended and ith the COTES Regs 1997 having been replaced with COTES Regs 2018.
There are some significant changes including the power to restrict imports and exports through specific ports, and civil sanctions. 
Currently civil sanctions are not being used. 
Another change is Reg 6, which requires all adverts for Annex A species to use nclude the A10 number. However I am also told that this is not yet being enforced, and I am awaiting confirmation either way.


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## Nathanb

Ultimately as Toby says at the beginning no one knows what will happen post 29th March, so the only sure fire way to get what you want is have it arrive before then.


Harry python does have a point though (I would never advocate smuggling), however if the existing deal goes through and the backstop comes into force between ROI and NI that may be a legitimate route to bring animals from the continent (admittedly it has the obvious downsides that the route is longer so the animals will be in transit longer and due to more ferry crossings, distances etc the costs will be more)

If the border does slam shut and it becomes more difficult there is of course a potential upside which is that it will be harder to smuggle animals which in turn will force people to purchase captive bred animals in the UK which in a round about way will potentially help wild populations (That's my trying to put a half glass full spin on things!)


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## ian14

> Ultimately as Toby says at the beginning no one knows what will happen post 29th March, so the only sure fire way to get what you want is have it arrive before then.


We do know what will happen though. We will be a CITES member on our own, so all imports and exports of CITES species will require permits. In addition, all imports from the EU will also require an export permit from there.


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## Mr Madagascar

*Cites*

Yes, every indication at this stage is that, as of April, the UK will be leaving the zone where agreed mutual CITES legislation exists with the EU. 
Therefore anyone hoping to get any python species, including royals, from an EU source (or take out to sell in Europe) will need to arrange CITES permits for each animal. This will therefore make the process more difficult and expensive than it is now, where no such process is needed.

The Hamm and Houten shows in March will therefore be the last opportunity to trade with the EU on the existing terms, unless something is altered in either the timescale or the plan of exit.

InteRep is already well booked up in anticipation of this.

www.interep.co.uk


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## ian14

Mr Madagascar said:


> Yes, every indication at this stage is that, as of April, the UK will be leaving the zone where agreed mutual CITES legislation exists with the EU.
> Therefore anyone hoping to get any python species, including royals, from an EU source (or take out to sell in Europe) will need to arrange CITES permits for each animal. This will therefore make the process more difficult and expensive than it is now, where no such process is needed.
> 
> The Hamm and Houten shows in March will therefore be the last opportunity to trade with the EU on the existing terms, unless something is altered in either the timescale or the plan of exit.
> 
> InteRep is already well booked up in anticipation of this.
> 
> www.interep.co.uk


Along with all boids, dart frogs, chelonia, the list goes on. 
After 29/3, Hamm and Houten will no longer be the source of cheap animals. 
Preplanning will be essential. 
The new COTES Regs also allow DEFRA to determine which ports will be authorised to import CITES species. 
I suspect these will be Dover for train and vehicle and Heathrow for air freight.


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## Mr Madagascar

*No deal update*

DEFRA / APHA have today advised that, in the event of a 'No Deal Brexit' scenario, current UK-issued Animal Transport Licenses would no longer be recognised at EU borders, meaning UK couriers won't be able to transport animals into the UK from Europe after March.

www.interep.co.uk


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## ian14

Mr Madagascar said:


> DEFRA / APHA have today advised that, in the event of a 'No Deal Brexit' scenario, current UK-issued Animal Transport Licenses would no longer be recognised at EU borders, meaning UK couriers won't be able to transport animals into the UK from Europe after March.
> 
> www.interep.co.uk


Can you post a link to that advise please? I've had a look and cannot see anything. There is nothing to stop private individuals doing this,providing they have the necesssary export and import permits for CITES species.


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## Mr Madagascar

*No deal, no transport*

_TM: I suppose it's okay for me to make public the content of the email sent to InteRep, as it details just such public information. 
This is regard to the situation for Licensed transporters in the event of a No Deal scenario; the position hasn't changed since January of last year but the likelihood of it has..._

Following the publication of technical notices in September 2018, on what will happen in the event of a no deal scenario, we want to draw your attention to the situation for Transport Authorisations and what you will need to do in order to continue to export live animals to the EU after day 1 in the event of no deal.

In January 2018, the EU commission confirmed that in the event of a no deal scenario when the UK exits the EU, they will no longer accept Transporter Authorisation, Certificates of Competence or Vehicle Approval Certificates issued by the UK authority. A link to the notice can be found here: https://ec.europa.eu/food/sites/food/files/animals/docs/notice_brexit_animal_transport.pdf

Defra have been working to ensure this information is communicated to all relevant stakeholders and have published a series of Technical Notices, which can be viewed on the links below. In addition to transporter authorisation, the technical notices will provide additional information on other processes which may impact upon you or your business.
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/how-to-prepare-if-the-uk-leaves-the-eu-with-no-deal
Exporting Animals and animal products is there’s no Brexit Deal
Importing Animals and animal products is there’s no Brexit Deal
Taking horses abroad if there is no Brexit deal

In the event of a no deal scenario, any transporter wishing to transport live animals into the EU will need to obtain new transport documentation issued by one of the EU27 Members States.
UK transporters wishing to transport live animals in the EU would need to appoint a representative within an EU country and apply to their relevant government department to obtain a valid Transporter Authorisation, Certificate of Competence, Vehicle Approval Certificate and, where necessary, a Journey Log.
Journey logs will need to be obtained from both APHA and the EU country that is the initial point of entry into the EU for export. Exporters would need to present their transport documentation at a Border Inspection Post in the EU.
UK-issued transport documentation would remain valid for transport within the UK only.


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## harry python

Getting closer to decree nisi with 3 months to go. 
Last I saw on this recently was that animals will have to be processed through the border force office at Ashford truck stop. 
Anybody anything more concrete on this as when I contacted border force main office at Dover they appeared to know nothing about this and just attached me a load of links to the government web site, to go back in a circle round the documents I have already read, in order to get in touch with them. 
Is it just me or has anybody else tried contacting border force, defra, APHA etc to try and get some cast iron clarity on paperwork, procedures, cost etc and just got the brush of to government documents that don't answer your questions?


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## ian14

harry python said:


> Getting closer to decree nisi with 3 months to go.
> Last I saw on this recently was that animals will have to be processed through the border force office at Ashford truck stop.
> Anybody anything more concrete on this as when I contacted border force main office at Dover they appeared to know nothing about this and just attached me a load of links to the government web site, to go back in a circle round the documents I have already read, in order to get in touch with them.
> Is it just me or has anybody else tried contacting border force, defra, APHA etc to try and get some cast iron clarity on paperwork, procedures, cost etc and just got the brush of to government documents that don't answer your questions?


It will depend on the species. CITES species will have to be imported at a designated port. A truck stop is not a port.
I suspect the reason you are not getting answers is because APHA and DEFRA don't know themselves! They have no reason to not tell you. Once they have a final and definitive answer they will tell you. The final EU/UK deal has not yet been finalised and until then, these departments will be in the dark as you are.
The only thing we do know is that any CITES species will require permits, both import and export.
Domestic legislation (COTES Regs) states that specific ports will be designated for import and export of CITES specimens, which makes perfect sense as it means that you will have expert Border Force officers dealing with the shipment.


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## harry python

ian14 said:


> It will depend on the species. CITES species will have to be imported at a designated port. A truck stop is not a port.
> I suspect the reason you are not getting answers is because APHA and DEFRA don't know themselves! They have no reason to not tell you. Once they have a final and definitive answer they will tell you. The final EU/UK deal has not yet been finalised and until then, these departments will be in the dark as you are.
> The only thing we do know is that any CITES species will require permits, both import and export.
> Domestic legislation (COTES Regs) states that specific ports will be designated for import and export of CITES specimens, which makes perfect sense as it means that you will have expert Border Force officers dealing with the shipment.



Just checked again and the latest update was specific to the Channel tunnel https://www.gov.uk/guidance/moving-...vBy8T2nIBrGywQE9tX7IGPcbqUKZ_fH-6jcPIqzQ0hYRw


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## colinm

That seems fine but you still have to negotiate the French side. I cant see them being particularly helpful.


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## harry python

colinm said:


> That seems fine but you still have to negotiate the French side. I cant see them being particularly helpful.



When I have come back through the tunnel I have never been stopped for a check by the French, only UK officials at the final barrier. I would imagine if stopped by the French there will only be a problem if you don't have all the required paperwork, Cities and proof of purchase. If not in order your probably up shit Creek. Way the tunnel checks work I imagine you will be required to declare to UK officials on the French side that you are importing animals so that your details can be forwarded on to the Ashford truck stop office. What there is no mention of is whether there is a charge involved in this administration. Also still nothing announced for other routes.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

I have made plans to bring in CITES animals from Europe prior to the end of the year to avoid any issues with import or export permits.


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## harry python

Getting ever closer. Just 2 whole months left before new arrangements. Remember to quote importing commodity code 0106200000 on your import documentation.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

What is this all about?




harry python said:


> Remember to quote importing commodity code 0106200000 on your import documentation.


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## harry python

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> What is this all about?


It is the reptile commodity code you need to enter on your import documentation for imported reptiles from the Eu from 01 January 2021. Also not to be forgotten your 20% Vat that will need to be paid.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

I wasn't aware of the commodity code.

I don't think people fully appreciate the full extent of the implications on bringing animals from Europe come the turn of the year. I can foresee some confiscations on the horizon - no through any malicious intent but through ignorance.



harry python said:


> It is the reptile commodity code you need to enter on your import documentation for imported reptiles from the Eu from 01 January 2021. Also not to be forgotten your 20% Vat that will need to be paid.


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## harry python

If the plans they had in place last year are going to be the same from January you will need paperwork from the exporting country for cities annex A,B & C. None for Annex D. Also prior notification to APHA ahead of import so they can issue their documentation for the same Appendices which they then email to the seller and exporter country. Seems no health certificate will be required for imported reptiles.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Yes - gone will be the 'spur of the moment' purchase at a European Show -that could be a positive or negative thing depending on how you look at it. 




harry python said:


> If the plans they had in place last year are going to be the same from January you will need paperwork from the exporting country for cities annex A,B & C. None for Annex D. Also prior notification to APHA ahead of import so they can issue their documentation for the same Appendices which they then email to the seller and exporter country. Seems no health certificate will be required for imported reptiles.


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## ian14

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Yes - gone will be the 'spur of the moment' purchase at a European Show -that could be a positive or negative thing depending on how you look at it.


I said this last year.
As of January 1st we will cease to have free trade of goods.
So all CITES specimens wi have to have an export permit from the EU state that it is being sent from AND an import permit from the UK.
Additionally they can only be brought in via a designated CITES port.
Another point to consider is that the EU has its own version of CITES, using Annexes whereas CITES itself uses Appendices. Only the EU has 4 layers of protection, Annex A to D, whereas CITES worldwide has three, Appendix I to III.
As a result some species within the EU are Annex A but Appendix II elsewhere. So for example to sell, buy or advertise for sale javelin sand boas,in the EU, you need an Article 10 certificate as they are Annex A so are treated as if they are Appendix I. However the species is in fact Appendix II for any other country!
Annex D specimens do still require authority for export.

Day trips to the continent to buy from shows will become a minefield unless you know the CITES Regulations, annexes and appendices.


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## harry python

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Yes - gone will be the 'spur of the moment' purchase at a European Show -that could be a positive or negative thing depending on how you look at it.



Yup the inability to make purchases on the day of a show was the first thing I thought of. Never mind after all the years that Brits have been tripping over there is plenty of surplus stock available over here and probably more than can be sold with the economy imploding and folk losing their jobs.


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## harry python

Have been doing more digging on this with the APHA today and impulse buys may still be possible from the EU shows if they have a vet resident on the show who can sign a intra trade certificate. Given they have one at Houten who signs for all incoming show stock for a modest fee likely he/she can also sort out intra trade certification. Whereby buyer can then send electronic notification to Defra to obtain import reference number to present at UK entry.


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## Malc

harry python said:


> Whereby buyer can then send electronic notification to Defra to obtain import reference number to present at UK entry.


Needed to do more research - DEFRA's opening hours are Monday - Friday 8.30 - 5.00pm is a bit pointless at a weekend show on the continent :whistling2:

Personally I think you are clutching at straws where impulse purchases are concerned... Given the closure of DEFRAs office there is little point in getting the show's vet to complete the paperwork. 

I would also suspect that copies of all the import and export paperwork will have to be sent in advance as hard copies rather than electronically, but that would need further investigation, and as I have no real intent to bring in a snake from europe in the new year is something I will leave fo those who do to investigate


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## harry python

Malc said:


> Needed to do more research - DEFRA's opening hours are Monday - Friday 8.30 - 5.00pm is a bit pointless at a weekend show on the continent :whistling2:
> 
> Personally I think you are clutching at straws where impulse purchases are concerned... Given the closure of DEFRAs office there is little point in getting the show's vet to complete the paperwork.
> 
> I would also suspect that copies of all the import and export paperwork will have to be sent in advance as hard copies rather than electronically, but that would need further investigation, and as I have no real intent to bring in a snake from europe in the new year is something I will leave fo those who do to investigate



Not so. They are organising all this electronically and by self declaration. So if it works as they hope, once you input your submission via IPAFFS on your government gateway account it is all set up. Only difficulty is a 24 hour notification, so another overnight stay before heading back home.


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## ian14

harry python said:


> Have been doing more digging on this with the APHA today and impulse buys may still be possible from the EU shows if they have a vet resident on the show who can sign a intra trade certificate. Given they have one at Houten who signs for all incoming show stock for a modest fee likely he/she can also sort out intra trade certification. Whereby buyer can then send electronic notification to Defra to obtain import reference number to present at UK entry.


Nope.
You need to have all permits in place.
Its not a case of just letting DEFRA know you are importing.
For a CITES permit to be issued the Scientific Authority has to satisfy the Management Authority that the specific trade being applied for will not have a detrimental impact. They have to give whats called a Non Dertriment Finding.
Once that's been done the Management Authority can then issue the permits.
There is no such thing as an intra trade certificate for transaction of CITES specimens between Member Parties.
Such documents may suffice for non CITES specimens. But CITES specimens must have the right permits in place, specifying species, sex and number per transaction.
I suspect that there will be a fair few people getting their Hamm and Houten purchases seized on entry to the UK.


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## ian14

harry python said:


> Not so. They are organising all this electronically and by self declaration. So if it works as they hope, once you input your submission via IPAFFS on your government gateway account it is all set up. Only difficulty is a 24 hour notification, so another overnight stay before heading back home.


Not for CITES species. The UK has a legal obligation to enforce this. So self declaration is ot going to happen.
It is very very simple.
If you are intending to import a CITES specimen from the EU into the UK fro 1/1/21, you must have the correct permits in place. Otherwise they will be seized.
And a reminder again. There will be specified ports to bring them in through. Try elsewhere, lose those animals.
The legislation is not new, it has been in place since 1997. Its called the Control of Trade in Endangered Species Regulations 1997. As a member party to CITES, the UK must have domestic legislation to enforce the treaty. The simple change is that we and the EU have parted ways and no longer have a common trade policy, so the EU becomes a foreign member party just like everyone else 
Have a read of the COTES Regs.


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## harry python

To see if I can get something definitive on this I have emailed defra, apha and euexit cities and stated I am importing a Royal Python from the Nederlands on 04 January 2021 and asked them to specify the procedure I will have to follow. All have sent back a auto response and state they will get back to me within 10 days. which usually means sending more links to the government website.


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## Malc

harry python said:


> To see if I can get something definitive on this I have emailed defra, apha and euexit cities and stated I am importing a Royal Python from the Nederlands on 04 January 2021 and asked them to specify the procedure I will have to follow. All have sent back a auto response and state they will get back to me within 10 days. which usually means sending more links to the government website.


I doubt that you will get the response you are seeking. Each one will provide you with links to other authorities and government sites, so you'll just be chasing your tail and coming to your own interpretation and conclusions. It may be prudent to sit on the phone for a few hours to cut out the chase, and then seek whatever confirmation given verbally in an e-mail.

One possible direction would be to contact any of the couriers such as Cold blooded movements to name one. I'm sure that as their business is in transporting reptiles around the EU and UK that they would have some idea on how this affects their business and what requirements are for their customers... last thing that they want to happen is become liable for having a customers prize six gene royal seized at the port of entry because they had the wrong or incomplete paperwork.

Taking out the CITES element, I still couldn't see how your suggestion that impulse buys could still happen. The previous company I used work for imported lighting products from China, and before the shipping agent would book a slot on the boat they needed reams of export paperwork from the factory detailing the total items in the consignment, any hazardous products, weighbills etc. There was similar paperwork filled by the london office for the import side.... and then you hoped that customs didn't delay the consignment due to some technicality like a spelling mistake ! 

As Ian (I think) has stated, brining in reptiles from the EU is going to be a minefield from January 1st.


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## harry python

Malc said:


> I doubt that you will get the response you are seeking. Each one will provide you with links to other authorities and government sites, so you'll just be chasing your tail and coming to your own interpretation and conclusions. It may be prudent to sit on the phone for a few hours to cut out the chase, and then seek whatever confirmation given verbally in an e-mail.
> 
> One possible direction would be to contact any of the couriers such as Cold blooded movements to name one. I'm sure that as their business is in transporting reptiles around the EU and UK that they would have some idea on how this affects their business and what requirements are for their customers... last thing that they want to happen is become liable for having a customers prize six gene royal seized at the port of entry because they had the wrong or incomplete paperwork.
> 
> Taking out the CITES element, I still couldn't see how your suggestion that impulse buys could still happen. The previous company I used work for imported lighting products from China, and before the shipping agent would book a slot on the boat they needed reams of export paperwork from the factory detailing the total items in the consignment, any hazardous products, weighbills etc. There was similar paperwork filled by the london office for the import side.... and then you hoped that customs didn't delay the consignment due to some technicality like a spelling mistake !
> 
> As Ian (I think) has stated, brining in reptiles from the EU is going to be a minefield from January 1st.


Well as the period of notification for animals to be imported is to be 24 hours minimum and up to 30 days that would suggest the new system should be going live 02 December 2020. But then again maybe we shouldn't hold our breath on that either. As for making calls for information to the UK Cites office that is currently a non starter as they are refusing calls and diverting them to the APHA service desk in Carlisle who are unable answer or deal with and Cites queries.


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## Malc

harry python said:


> As for making calls for information to the UK Cites office that is currently a non starter as they are refusing calls and diverting them to the APHA service desk in Carlisle who are unable answer or deal with and Cites queries.


Told ya so ! :lol2:



Malc said:


> I doubt that you will get the response you are seeking. Each one will provide you with links to other authorities and government sites, so you'll just be chasing your tail


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## ian14

> Originally Posted by harry python View Post
> As for making calls for information to the UK Cites office that is currently a non starter as they are refusing calls and diverting them to the APHA service desk in Carlisle who are unable answer or deal with and Cites queries.


APHA are the Management Authority so are the people who can give you the answers.


----------



## harry python

I should add that virtually all of the information on the government website, apart from passported cats and dogs, is under the heading of commercial. As for the current EU animal movements under Traces in the UK that stops on 06 December 2020 when importers have to use the UK Import of products, animals, food and feed system (IPAFFS). This is all ready accepting registrations and available to anybody in the UK with a government gateway account from where you can work through some of the hurdles for importing reptiles.


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## harry python

Latest I have got back from APHA is that there will be at least 3 fees to pay when bringing back animals. 1. Import permit. Currently £67 which I assume is per consignment. 2. Health certificate/fit to travel from the country of permit. 3. Export permit. At the cost charged in the country you are exporting from.


----------



## ian14

harry python said:


> Latest I have got back from APHA is that there will be at least 3 fees to pay when bringing back animals. 1. Import permit. Currently £67 which I assume is per consignment. 2. Health certificate/fit to travel from the country of permit. 3. Export permit. At the cost charged in the country you are exporting from.


Why are you so obsessed with importing.
There is a thriving hobby here on the UK.


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## harry python

ian14 said:


> Why are you so obsessed with importing.
> There is a thriving hobby here on the UK.


 When people throw around labels of this kind I always find it useful to check out the character of the poster from their earlier posts on their profile. Usually explains quite a lot about them.


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## Malc

harry python said:


> When people throw around labels of this kind I always find it useful to check out the character of the poster from their earlier posts on their profile. Usually explains quite a lot about them.


What's that got to do with the topic, and Ian hasn't labeled you in his post that you responded to!

I'm curious Harry, are you trying to imports something specific in the new year, or are you just trying to clarify the procedure and costs involved as a reference post should anyone else raise the question?


----------



## harry python

Malc said:


> What's that got to do with the topic, and Ian hasn't labeled you in his post that you responded to!
> 
> 
> Pretty much what I thought about Ian's post.
> 
> I'm curious Harry, are you trying to imports something specific in the new year, or are you just trying to clarify the procedure and costs involved as a reference post should anyone else raise the question?



I haven't got any plans for the import of anything, as private individuals wanting to import small numbers directly into the UK will not find it viable anymore from 01 January 2021.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

I must say, for someone with no plans on importing any animals, you sure have went to a great deal of trouble and effort to find out what is required to import animals come the turn of the year?



harry python said:


> I haven't got any plans for the import of anything, as private individuals wanting to import small numbers directly into the UK will not find it viable anymore from 01 January 2021.


----------



## harry python

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I must say, for someone with no plans on importing any animals, you sure have went to a great deal of trouble and effort to find out what is required to import animals come the turn of the year?


As they say a week is a long time in politics and one should never rule anything in or out despite the the impeding new obstacles.


----------



## Malc

harry python said:


> I haven't got any plans for the import of anything, as private individuals wanting to import small numbers directly into the UK will not find it viable anymore from 01 January 2021.





Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I must say, for someone with no plans on importing any animals, you sure have went to a great deal of trouble and effort to find out what is required to import animals come the turn of the year?


I thought that too.




harry python said:


> I always find it useful to check out the character of the poster from their earlier posts on their profile. Usually explains quite a lot about them.


I followed your advice and checked your profile. Looking at your post history, other that a few post in the classified section, the bulk of your posts have been in connection with reptile shows, mainly on the continent, so presumed that the reasoning behind this thread was down to issues you are facing taking surplus stock and selling them in Holland or Germany, and or restrictions and cost incurred when possibly bringing back new stock (ignoring the covid issue that prevented this years shows)?

But that would not seem to be the case ?


----------



## colinm

It does seem a bit of a mess and from what i can see it seems unresolved for both CITES and non CITES species.

In reality I cant see any of the European shows going ahead on the first half of next year. Hopefully things will be sorted out by then.

One thing to bear in mind is that if you are selling in Europe you will need paperwork to take the animals over there and then bring the surplus back. I cant see how you can do that on an adhoc basis. You will need to presell the animals.


----------



## harry python

Malc said:


> I thought that too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I followed your advice and checked your profile. Looking at your post history, other that a few post in the classified section, the bulk of your posts have been in connection with reptile shows, mainly on the continent, so presumed that the reasoning behind this thread was down to issues you are facing taking surplus stock and selling them in Holland or Germany, and or restrictions and cost incurred when possibly bringing back new stock (ignoring the covid issue that prevented this years shows)?
> 
> But that would not seem to be the case ?


To some extent true as over the last 15 years of running tables at shows I have exported many times more than I have imported. However, I no longer have a pet shop licence and can now I sell my surplus stock at Donny. Where our fair prices usually mean most of what we take does not come home with us. With that and unless EU to UK reptile transit procedures and costs change we won't be booking and more tables at EU shows. I have already gifted my Houten table 06 December 2020, back squaded to 02 February 2021 to somebody else as there is no point travelling over there. Apart from the cost an application to UK Cites to take animals over there in February would need to have been made at least a couple of months back as going on what I have been told turnaround time for that documentation is about 4 months.


----------



## harry python

colinm said:


> It does seem a bit of a mess and from what i can see it seems unresolved for both CITES and non CITES species.
> 
> In reality I cant see any of the European shows going ahead on the first half of next year. Hopefully things will be sorted out by then.
> 
> One thing to bear in mind is that if you are selling in Europe you will need paperwork to take the animals over there and then bring the surplus back. I cant see how you can do that on an adhoc basis. You will need to presell the animals.



Are there any reptiles that are non cites listed?
The new adhoc is about 4 months notice.


----------



## colinm

harry python said:


> Are there any reptiles that are non cites listed?
> The new adhoc is about 4 months notice.


Well yes if you go by 1 to 3.

I think you misunderstand what I meant. If you went over to Hamm with 100 Royal Pythons to sell on a table you wouldnt know how many you were bringing back unsold. Hence how many to enter on the export and import paperwork.


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## harry python

colinm said:


> Well yes if you go by 1 to 3.
> 
> I think you misunderstand what I meant. If you went over to Hamm with 100 Royal Pythons to sell on a table you wouldnt know how many you were bringing back unsold. Hence how many to enter on the export and import paperwork.


You are exporting them from the UK and importing them to Germany (EU). so it is 100 on both permits. If you don't sell them all you bring the unsold ones back on the original paperwork. Well that is how I see it. If not then you would need 4 permits: export permit from the UK, import permit to the EU, export permit back from the EU and import permit back into the UK. That would be crazy.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

But if you sold animals at a European Show you would no longer have 100 physical animals as per the return paperwork (both export from EU and import into the UK) - it may seem crazy but I have seen shipments of animals being confiscated for less. 

The problem with common sense is that it isn't very common!!!



harry python said:


> You are exporting them from the UK and importing them to Germany (EU). so it is 100 on both permits. If you don't sell them all you bring the unsold ones back on the original paperwork. Well that is how I see it. If not then you would need 4 permits: export permit from the UK, import permit to the EU, export permit back from the EU and import permit back into the UK. That would be crazy.


----------



## Malc

In essence it would seem the issue of the loss of the freedom people had when taking stock or bringing purchases from EU shows is what is cheesing Harry off.

The fact that there will be so much "red tape" makes the point of exhibiting or even purchasing on the day from EU shows pointless. I'm no expert, and maybe Ian would chime in here, but if your were taking any quantity out of the UK with a view to bringing either the same amount or less back you would need four sets of paperwork, an export and import from both the UK and the destination country. As the quantity coming back to the UK can not be confirmed, it may not be something that can be pre-arranged in advance of the return trip, and thus could end up with all the animals conversated as the "shipment" wouldn't match the paperwork. The only resolution would be if the turn around of paperwork could be done in hours rather than weeks


----------



## Central Scotland Reptiles

I do have some prior experience of importing both from Europe and further afield and your assumption is correct. One set of paperwork on the outbound journey (export from the UK - Import to Germany for example) then one set for the return journey (export from Germany - Import to UK)

I had import paperwork granted for some CITES animals coming in from South Africa - the paperwork stated the country of origin was Saudi Arabia (obviously the country just above South Africa on a drop down menu) now had I not noticed this my entire shipment would have been confiscated through DEFRA's own mistake and I would have had very little come back. 

Regarding European runs in the future, my biggest concern is if a courier was to pick up a number of animals - if even one of these animals was mis-labelled or had the incorrect documentation the whole van could be confiscated and there wouldn't be anything you could do about it. 



Malc said:


> In essence it would seem the issue of the loss of the freedom people had when taking stock or bringing purchases from EU shows is what is cheesing Harry off.
> 
> The fact that there will be so much "red tape" makes the point of exhibiting or even purchasing on the day from EU shows pointless. I'm no expert, and maybe Ian would chime in here, but if your were taking any quantity out of the UK with a view to bringing either the same amount or less back you would need four sets of paperwork, an export and import from both the UK and the destination country. As the quantity coming back to the UK can not be confirmed, it may not be something that can be pre-arranged in advance of the return trip, and thus could end up with all the animals conversated as the "shipment" wouldn't match the paperwork. The only resolution would be if the turn around of paperwork could be done in hours rather than weeks


----------



## Malc

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Regarding European runs in the future, my biggest concern is if a courier was to pick up a number of animals - if even one of these animals was mis-labelled or had the incorrect documentation the whole van could be confiscated and there wouldn't be anything you could do about it.


And that brings up another point. Who would be responsible for this. If say for example you guys want Malc's reptile couriers to bring back your paid for multi-gene royals from leading breeders in germany, would each individual need to do the permits themselves, or would it be down to me as the guy bringing them back. If it would be down to me to ensure the paperwork is in order and there is a technicality resulting in the shipment being confiscated, then that would lead me wide open to refunds or court cases. If on the other hand it's down to the individuals, and say a similar error that you described happened on your paperwork which resulted in the confiscation of the reptiles, then how would you cover the loss of those other members reptiles...

What a mindfield this could be...


----------



## Central Scotland Reptiles

I guess the simplest solution is to 'buy British' - I think these restrictions will take a bit of getting used too but ultimately it will be good for the British hobby.

Really, what species do we not have available to us here in the UK that would cause someone to go to the hassle of bringing in animals from Europe on a whim?



Malc said:


> And that brings up another point. Who would be responsible for this. If say for example you guys want Malc's reptile couriers to bring back your paid for multi-gene royals from leading breeders in germany, would each individual need to do the permits themselves, or would it be down to me as the guy bringing them back. If it would be down to me to ensure the paperwork is in order and there is a technicality resulting in the shipment being confiscated, then that would lead me wide open to refunds or court cases. If on the other hand it's down to the individuals, and say a similar error that you described happened on your paperwork which resulted in the confiscation of the reptiles, then how would you cover the loss of those other members reptiles...
> 
> What a mindfield this could be...


----------



## harry python

Malc said:


> And that brings up another point. Who would be responsible for this. If say for example you guys want Malc's reptile couriers to bring back your paid for multi-gene royals from leading breeders in germany, would each individual need to do the permits themselves, or would it be down to me as the guy bringing them back. If it would be down to me to ensure the paperwork is in order and there is a technicality resulting in the shipment being confiscated, then that would lead me wide open to refunds or court cases. If on the other hand it's down to the individuals, and say a similar error that you described happened on your paperwork which resulted in the confiscation of the reptiles, then how would you cover the loss of those other members reptiles...
> 
> What a mindfield this could be...


Think you will find the December 2020 EU courier runs scheduled for later this week will be the last. Doubt there will be any ads doing the rounds for courier trips to Hamm and Houten from 01 January 2021 as that business will no longer be viable. All that said the EU surplus stock will still find its way to the UK through the wholesalers whose bulk buying will mitigate costs. Plus they already have skill and expertise with the import procedures from their mega wild caught shipments from Africa, Vietnam and the rest of the places that don't really do fit for purpose Cites management.


----------



## harry python

Malc said:


> In essence it would seem the issue of the loss of the freedom people had when taking stock or bringing purchases from EU shows is what is cheesing Harry off.
> 
> The fact that there will be so much "red tape" makes the point of exhibiting or even purchasing on the day from EU shows pointless. I'm no expert, and maybe Ian would chime in here, but if your were taking any quantity out of the UK with a view to bringing either the same amount or less back you would need four sets of paperwork, an export and import from both the UK and the destination country. As the quantity coming back to the UK can not be confirmed, it may not be something that can be pre-arranged in advance of the return trip, and thus could end up with all the animals conversated as the "shipment" wouldn't match the paperwork. The only resolution would be if the turn around of paperwork could be done in hours rather than weeks


Bureaucracy


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## al stotton

Certainly seems, to my untrained mind, this is all designed to be extra difficult on purpose.


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## harry python

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I guess the simplest solution is to 'buy British' - I think these restrictions will take a bit of getting used too but ultimately it will be good for the British hobby.
> 
> Really, what species do we not have available to us here in the UK that would cause someone to go to the hassle of bringing in animals from Europe on a whim?


Plus some say that every grey cloud has a silver lining. Being thrown out of the EU Cites traces system and detached from EU invasive species policy will stop the UK from being told to ban king snakes.


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## harry python

al stotton said:


> Certainly seems, to my untrained mind, this is all designed to be extra difficult on purpose.



Not really just one of the many unforeseen consequences of leaving the EU. Lets face it all the arrangements for getting, food, drugs and vital goods into the UK from the EU from 01 January 2021 are completely untested until it actually happens. So the powers that be are hardly likely to be putting much thought into a frictionless system for the micro trade of snakes into and from the EU. 


Also for bulk wholesalers nothing but extra cost changes as they already use the exact same procedures when importing from outside the EU.


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## harry python

Happy days. The UK IPAFFS to replace EU traces went live at 6AM this morning.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

I have no idea what this is or what this means for the hobby?



harry python said:


> Happy days. The UK IPAFFS to replace EU traces went live at 6AM this morning.


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## Tarron

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I have no idea what this is or what this means for the hobby?


It's the Import of Products, Animals, Food and Feed System.

Basically, its the system being used to log imports, so they are able to be received, checked and monitored through the import process and to get to the customer as quickly as possible, whilst ensuring relevant dutys, taxes and what not are logged/paid.


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## harry python

Checking on some social media platforms looks like some UK people are already experiencing the consequences of the end of EU transition. Quite a few who have ordered and paid for animals from Hamm and Houten sellers, with them dotted across the EU, and with limited EU couriers operating are asking for help to get them back.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Please don't say that!! :-(



harry python said:


> Checking on some social media platforms looks like some UK people are already experiencing the consequences of the end of EU transition. Quite a few who have ordered and paid for animals from Hamm and Houten sellers, with them dotted across the EU, and with limited EU couriers operating are asking for help to get them back.


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## Malc

I guess they have two choices... make arrangements to travel themselves and meet with the breeders at a convenient halfway house to personally collect their purchases, or request a refund and try and source animals with the same genes in the UK


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

If only it were that easy, I certainly wouldn't be able to arrange personal collection of my animals - even at a mutually agreeable half way point, 

I am getting some _Phrynocephalus mystaceus_ from the Ukraine via the Netherlands. If something were to go wrong I would be out of pocket by over £1000 which would be a bitter pill to take - my wife wouldn't be best pleased either so if you don't hear from me again know that I love you all. 



Malc said:


> I guess they have two choices... make arrangements to travel themselves and meet with the breeders at a convenient halfway house to personally collect their purchases, or request a refund and try and source animals with the same genes in the UK


----------



## Malc

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> If only it were that easy, I certainly wouldn't be able to arrange personal collection of my animals - even at a mutually agreeable half way point,
> 
> I am getting some _Phrynocephalus mystaceus_ from the Ukraine via the Netherlands. If something were to go wrong I would be out of pocket by over £1000 which would be a bitter pill to take - *my wife wouldn't be best pleased either so if you don't hear from me again *know that I love you all.


Would that be to have a couple of bits of your anatomy reattached :gasp::whistling2:

I would have thought that there must be some transition period for those that have made purchases prior to Brexit and are trying to sort out the logistics of getting those purchases over before import paperwork is required ??


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Yes, don't suppose many people would be pleased about loosing £1000 with nothing to show for it. Especially when you consider the couriers I have arranged, new enclosure I have built and mealworm colonies I have started!! 

Touch wood, I have not had any reports of any issues so hopefully there will be no issues prior to the turn of the year. 



Malc said:


> Would that be to have a couple of bits of your anatomy reattached :gasp::whistling2:
> 
> I would have thought that there must be some transition period for those that have made purchases prior to Brexit and are trying to sort out the logistics of getting those purchases over before import paperwork is required ??


----------



## Tarron

Malc said:


> Would that be to have a couple of bits of your anatomy reattached :gasp::whistling2:
> 
> *I would have thought that there must be some transition period for those that have made purchases prior to Brexit and are trying to sort out the logistics of getting those purchases over before import paperwork is required ??*


The transition period started January of this year and ends on the 31st December, you can't just say you ordered a reptile on the 30th December and need a few weeks to sort the paperwork.


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## Malc

Tarron said:


> The transition period started January of this year and ends on the 31st December, you can't just say you ordered a reptile on the 30th December and need a few weeks to sort the paperwork.


Right... So I'm guessing that if, for example the normal process would take two months, if an order placed in October turns up at customs on 1-1-21 without paperwork there is a good chance the consignment will get confiscated :gasp:

I accept what you are saying about an order placed 31/12/20, but would have thought that there could be some leeway ?


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

I guess the stance will be if you knew the process took 2 months, why did you wait until the last possible minute to process it. 

I would suggest their response will be we have given you a 12 month 'leeway' period and once the new rules come into force, there will be little room for 'common sense'. 



Malc said:


> Right... So I'm guessing that if, for example the normal process would take two months, if an order placed in October turns up at customs on 1-1-21 without paperwork there is a good chance the consignment will get confiscated :gasp:
> 
> I accept what you are saying about an order placed 31/12/20, but would have thought that there could be some leeway ?


----------



## harry python

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Please don't say that!! :-(


I mean people who have ordered things that were supposed to come via Houten and with the show cancelled the sellers are not travelling there for the buyer to pickup in person or meet up with a courier. The former planning to go to the show didn't make any other arrangements so they are in the lurch.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Phew, no my animals were never being delivered or ordered on the basis of the show going ahead - I am confident the animals I have ordered will be delivered. 



harry python said:


> I mean people who have ordered things that were supposed to come via Houten and with the show cancelled the sellers are not travelling there for the buyer to pickup in person or meet up with a courier. The former planning to go to the show didn't make any other arrangements so they are in the lurch.


----------



## Tarron

Malc said:


> Right... So I'm guessing that if, for example the normal process would take two months, if an order placed in October turns up at customs on 1-1-21 without paperwork there is a good chance the consignment will get confiscated :gasp:
> 
> I accept what you are saying about an order placed 31/12/20, but would have thought that there could be some leeway ?


Absolutely.

I get where you are coming from. I expect if you had everything sorted for a consignment to arrive in time, but delays outside of your control happened, there may be some leniency. But ultimately, there is a cut off date that they have to adhere to.

Unless you've been living under a rock, everyone has known this has been on the cards for 4 years, and we officially left the EU last year so there is really no excuse.

It's the same for business as well as private people, I've had to sink a significant amount of investment and time prepping for this and need to arrange for my first deliveries to arrive in the first few days of the new year.


----------



## ian14

harry python said:


> I mean people who have ordered things that were supposed to come via Houten and with the show cancelled the sellers are not travelling there for the buyer to pickup in person or meet up with a courier. The former planning to go to the show didn't make any other arrangements so they are in the lurch.


Covid emerged in January.
We were locked down in March with plenty of restrictions including travel. Quite frankly, if you ordered animals after that with the aim of travelling to collect them, in the midst of a pandemic, with travel restrictions in place, meaning you couldn't travel to collect those animals, and no idea when life would get back to how it was, then frankly you are a fool. Everyone knew that as of 1/1/21 we are completely out of the EU transition period and new laws around importing kick in. Which means you should have thought ahead.


----------



## harry python

ian14 said:


> Covid emerged in January.
> We were locked down in March with plenty of restrictions including travel. Quite frankly, if you ordered animals after that with the aim of travelling to collect them, in the midst of a pandemic, with travel restrictions in place, meaning you couldn't travel to collect those animals, and no idea when life would get back to how it was, then frankly you are a fool. Everyone knew that as of 1/1/21 we are completely out of the EU transition period and new laws around importing kick in. Which means you should have thought ahead.



Well if all else fails I am sure they can get a friendly Irishman/woman to ship them back to the Republic. Then over the wide open Northern border and onward to the UK from a friendly Northern man woman.
It is at times like this it is useful to have a Republic passport.


----------



## ian14

harry python said:


> Well if all else fails I am sure they can get a friendly Irishman/woman to ship them back to the Republic. Then over the wide open Northern border and onward to the UK from a friendly Northern man woman.
> It is at times like this it is useful to have a Republic passport.


:bash:
And then say goodbye to your animals.
That is smuggling.
You see, to sell CITES specimens, including their offspring, you have to prove to the Management Authority that they were lawfully imported or were captive bred in the country. All CITES specimens are treated as wild taken until proven otherwise.
I really don't understand your problem. Its a simple process to follow. You have had almost a year to plan ahead for this!!
You have now publicly announced that you will look to smuggle animals into the UK.
You are aware I hope, that conviction of offences under the Control of Trade in Endangered Species Regulations 1997, which is the legal framework in the UK to legislate for CITES, is 5 years imprisonment?
It is no secret on this forum what my job is, or that law enforcement agencies do look at this and other sites selling animals and their derivatives.


----------



## harry python

ian14 said:


> :bash:
> And then say goodbye to your animals.
> That is smuggling.
> You see, to sell CITES specimens, including their offspring, you have to prove to the Management Authority that they were lawfully imported or were captive bred in the country. All CITES specimens are treated as wild taken until proven otherwise.
> I really don't understand your problem. Its a simple process to follow. You have had almost a year to plan ahead for this!!
> You have now publicly announced that you will look to smuggle animals into the UK.
> You are aware I hope, that conviction of offences under the Control of Trade in Endangered Species Regulations 1997, which is the legal framework in the UK to legislate for CITES, is 5 years imprisonment?
> It is no secret on this forum what my job is, or that law enforcement agencies do look at this and other sites selling animals and their derivatives.



I note your statement, " You have now publicly announced that you will look to smuggle animals into the UK."


Please direct me to where I made that announcement. 


Also is your boss Norrie Stewart aware of your contributions and corporate statements that you make on here?


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## colinm

My understanding of the situation is that while there will be free trade between Eire and Northern Ireland goods will have to be declared between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. Therefore there will need to be some type of of formsl paperwork in the port of entry in Scotland or Wales.


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## harry python

colinm said:


> My understanding of the situation is that while there will be free trade between Eire and Northern Ireland goods will have to be declared between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. Therefore there will need to be some type of of formsl paperwork in the port of entry in Scotland or Wales.


Yeah but does anybody know what it is at moment? Plus has anybody told the Ulster unionists about it yet.


----------



## harry python

ian14 said:


> :bash:
> And then say goodbye to your animals.
> That is smuggling.
> You see, to sell CITES specimens, including their offspring, you have to prove to the Management Authority that they were lawfully imported or were captive bred in the country. All CITES specimens are treated as wild taken until proven otherwise.
> I really don't understand your problem. Its a simple process to follow. You have had almost a year to plan ahead for this!!
> You have now publicly announced that you will look to smuggle animals into the UK.
> You are aware I hope, that conviction of offences under the Control of Trade in Endangered Species Regulations 1997, which is the legal framework in the UK to legislate for CITES, is 5 years imprisonment?
> It is no secret on this forum what my job is, or that law enforcement agencies do look at this and other sites selling animals and their derivatives.


Given I am in my 60s with enough of my own stock to work with, and accepted I won't be tripping over to EU shows anymore. Also I am quite happy with the range of stock at Donny, so I am not the one with the problem.

More it is you with the problem from woeful administration of UK Cites. In particular looks like you have a problem from the fact that Irish Republic citizens, accompanied by Northern clansman and UK citizens cross the UK to to EU shows including Doncaster with polyboxes full of herps. Add to that that you have a 310 mile wide open Irish border problem with the EU. Maybe UK Cites should arrange for a program of building for some border posts between the North and Republic. Best make them bomb proof.

Alternatively, maybe UK Cites should move on from its mid 1970s mindset and realise it is almost 2021 and come up with an efficient digital form of administration that is linked to IPAFFS.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Woop, woop - my little Agamas are being delivered tomorrow all the way from the Ukraine via Amsterdam.


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## keithshoesmith

*Import*

Great News.:2thumb:


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## harry python

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Woop, woop - my little Agamas are being delivered tomorrow all the way from the Ukraine via Amsterdam.


End of an Era.


----------



## Central Scotland Reptiles

Yes indeed but hopefully it will ultimately be a positive for the UK hobby.



harry python said:


> End of an Era.


----------



## ian14

harry python said:


> I note your statement, " You have now publicly announced that you will look to smuggle animals into the UK."
> 
> 
> Please direct me to where I made that announcement.
> 
> 
> Also is your boss Norrie Stewart aware of your contributions and corporate statements that you make on here?


1. You stated on this forum that you would do exactly that. Use people to bring animals in via the Republic of Ireland tk Northern Ireland. That is smuggling. To refresh your memory:



> Well if all else fails I am sure they can get a friendly Irishman/woman to ship them back to the Republic. Then over the wide open Northern border and onward to the UK from a friendly Northern man woman.
> It is at times like this it is useful to have a Republic passport


.

2. I have no idea who Norrie Stewart is. Whoever he is, he is not my boss.

I have made no "corporate statements ". I have pointed out the legislation. Which you clearly don't agree with. But agree or not, that's the law.


----------



## ian14

harry python said:


> Yeah but does anybody know what it is at moment? Plus has anybody told the Ulster unionists about it yet.


Um, yes. Its called the Control of Trade in Endangered Species Regs 1997 that enshrines CITES into UK law.


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## harry python

ian14 said:


> 1. You stated on this forum that you would do exactly that. Use people to bring animals in via the Republic of Ireland tk Northern Ireland. That is smuggling. To refresh your memory:
> 
> .
> 
> 2. I have no idea who Norrie Stewart is. Whoever he is, he is not my boss.
> 
> I have made no "corporate statements ". I have pointed out the legislation. Which you clearly don't agree with. But agree or not, that's the law.


You seem to ignore the word they?


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## harry python

ian14 said:


> Um, yes. Its called the Control of Trade in Endangered Species Regs 1997 that enshrines CITES into UK law.


I think you will find this strand of the thread was related to the passage of ALL GOODS into and out of Northern Ireland. I was not aware that the Control of Trade in Endangered Species Regs 1997 was relevant to the food products sent by the likes of Tesco, Sainsbury and the rest was subject to that secondary legislation.


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## harry python

After Goves announcement on the new protocol for goods movement between Northern Ireland they published the details today including how it affects the movement of live animals. may be wrong but way I am reading it is that you will need a Cites permit to take herps to Northern Ireland or bring them from Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK. Sounds like Northern Ireland is staying in the EU. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/trading...pecies-protected-by-cites-from-1-january-2021


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

I have a friend in NI and he raised this issue several months ago - they seem to be in 'no mans land' neither in the UK or EU when it comes to animal movement.



harry python said:


> After Goves announcement on the new protocol for goods movement between Northern Ireland they published the details today including how it affects the movement of live animals. may be wrong but way I am reading it is that you will need a Cites permit to take herps to Northern Ireland or bring them from Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK. Sounds like Northern Ireland is staying in the EU. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/trading...pecies-protected-by-cites-from-1-january-2021


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## harry python

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I have a friend in NI and he raised this issue several months ago - they seem to be in 'no mans land' neither in the UK or EU when it comes to animal movement.


Looking like Northern Ireland (NI) will have to get Cites export permits from Dublin to send over to mainland UK and get import permits from UK cites Bristol. So probably making all reptile buying and selling between NI and UK mainland completely unviable.

Also Peregrine and Monkfield supply the republic and NI. So with £67 cites expert permit and Republic/NI inbound Cites permit cost on a wholesale priced 30 quid Corn snake no longer viable for them to trade over there anymore.


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## LiasisUK

harry python said:


> Looking like Northern Ireland (NI) will have to get Cites export permits from Dublin to send over to mainland UK and get import permits from UK cites Bristol. So probably making all reptile buying and selling between NI and UK mainland completely unviable.
> 
> Also Peregrine and Monkfield supply the republic and NI. So with £67 cites expert permit and Republic/NI inbound Cites permit cost on a wholesale priced 30 quid Corn snake no longer viable for them to trade over there anymore.


Incorrect, pantherophis are not a CITES species and therefore they do not require CITES paperwork to move across borders. 

I agree this whole situation will make things difficult, but it will not make things impossible. These broad generalisation that no one can get animals any more seems is a very negative approach. It will only really affect the trade of CITES species, there are a lot of non-CITES species.... like pretty much all colubrids.


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## harry python

LiasisUK said:


> Incorrect, pantherophis are not a CITES species and therefore they do not require CITES paperwork to move across borders.
> 
> I agree this whole situation will make things difficult, but it will not make things impossible. These broad generalisation that no one can get animals any more seems is a very negative approach. It will only really affect the trade of CITES species, there are a lot of non-CITES species.... like pretty much all colubrids.



A ray of light but. Will still need health certificates and 24 hours notice on IPAFFS. But no Pythons or Boas which should help soak up some of the massive over production In the UK.


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## ian14

harry python said:


> I think you will find this strand of the thread was related to the passage of ALL GOODS into and out of Northern Ireland. I was not aware that the Control of Trade in Endangered Species Regs 1997 was relevant to the food products sent by the likes of Tesco, Sainsbury and the rest was subject to that secondary legislation.


The discussion was around CITES species. One which you have clearly been shown to have no understanding of, so how on earth is this relevant to food products from supermarkets????


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## ian14

harry python said:


> You seem to ignore the word they?


Which has what relevance??


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## ian14

harry python said:


> After Goves announcement on the new protocol for goods movement between Northern Ireland they published the details today including how it affects the movement of live animals. may be wrong but way I am reading it is that you will need a Cites permit to take herps to Northern Ireland or bring them from Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK. Sounds like Northern Ireland is staying in the EU. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/trading...pecies-protected-by-cites-from-1-january-2021


Well, no.
NI is part of the UK.
CITES permits are only needed for species controlled under CITES. 
I would really urge you to stop posting false information. 
You clearly do not understand the legalities around CITES


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## ian14

harry python said:


> Looking like Northern Ireland (NI) will have to get Cites export permits from Dublin to send over to mainland UK and get import permits from UK cites Bristol. So probably making all reptile buying and selling between NI and UK mainland completely unviable.
> 
> Also Peregrine and Monkfield supply the republic and NI. So with £67 cites expert permit and Republic/NI inbound Cites permit cost on a wholesale priced 30 quid Corn snake no longer viable for them to trade over there anymore.


Again.
Stop posting false information.
CITES in the UK is just that. The UK is the Member Party. Northern Ireland is not a Member Party on its own.
Please, stop posting inaccurate, wrong, and false comments.


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## ian14

harry python said:


> A ray of light but. Will still need health certificates and 24 hours notice on IPAFFS. But no Pythons or Boas which should help soak up some of the massive over production In the UK.


IPAFFS applies to all animals. It has NOTHING to do with CITES.
And I'm still waiting to find out who Norrie whatshisname is and why you think he is my boss??


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## ian14

ian14 said:


> Well, no.
> NI is part of the UK.
> CITES permits are only needed for species controlled under CITES.
> I would really urge you to stop posting false information.
> You clearly do not understand the legalities around CITES


How odd. You are right, the latest update does appear to mean that import and export documents are needed to move CITES specimens between NI and GB.
They must have see the weak point that you were planning on using then Harry!


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## harry python

ian14 said:


> How odd. You are right, the latest update does appear to mean that import and export documents are needed to move CITES specimens between NI and GB.
> They must have see the weak point that you were planning on using then Harry!


LOL you are really getting worked up. Keep calm and carry on


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## harry python

ian14 said:


> How odd. You are right, the latest update does appear to mean that import and export documents are needed to move CITES specimens between NI and GB.
> They must have see the weak point that you were planning on using then Harry!


They could do with your expertise on the facebook Hamm and Houten group. A few NI breeders on there very optimistic for their ability to increase courier business due to what they see as them still being in the Eu for Cites.


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## colinm

Yep, the are very misled or blinkered. The government has put a border in the Irish Sea thereby making Northern Ireland a part of the EU and not the UK.


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## harry python

colinm said:


> Yep, the are very misled or blinkered. The government has put a border in the Irish Sea thereby making Northern Ireland a part of the EU and not the UK.[/QUOT
> 
> 
> Yup once they add on in and out cites permits, health check fees and handling cost I can't see those prominent NI couriers doing as well as they think they will being in the EU/Dublin cites administration. To make their runs pay they have picked up and dropped of a lot of animals on the UK mainland as they trip to and back from Hamm and Houten. With cites permits also required to take to Donny they will also lose out there. Add to that the first Donny after Covid is likely to be full to the rafters with livestock can't see too many wanting to pay for cites permits to bring back stock already available in the UK.


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## LiasisUK

An awful lot of people are stressed about how this is going to effect the hobby and all this misinformation being thrown about isn't helping. This thread and also a few individuals on facebook are rife with misinformation, albeit not intentionally. I have now hidden some people responsible for the inaccurate posts on the hamm and houten FB groups, as they almost just seem to be out there scare-mongering. AND getting replies from people in the EU that are even less clued up! It not really even affecting them!

The borders won't be closed, it will be possible. It just means more paperwork, which people should be doing some of anyway. I do a lot of sales in Europe and their paperwork is always on point, and I always provide papers. People in the UK unfortunately don't seem to know what paperwork means....


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## harry python

LiasisUK said:


> An awful lot of people are stressed about how this is going to effect the hobby and all this misinformation being thrown about isn't helping. This thread and also a few individuals on facebook are rife with misinformation, albeit not intentionally. I have now hidden some people responsible for the inaccurate posts on the hamm and houten FB groups, as they almost just seem to be out there scare-mongering. AND getting replies from people in the EU that are even less clued up! It not really even affecting them!
> 
> The borders won't be closed, it will be possible. It just means more paperwork, which people should be doing some of anyway. I do a lot of sales in Europe and their paperwork is always on point, and I always provide papers. People in the UK unfortunately don't seem to know what paperwork means....


Additional paperwork yes but also additional cost which will surely reduce the movement of herps to and from the EU. Then add on the UK cites office delay. Again another factor to put some people off of EU purchases.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Retailers and individuals that routinely purchase from Europe may not notice any different but what will be different - which I think everyone has acknowledged - is there will be no more 'buying on a whim' from the European Shows because of this additional paperwork. 



harry python said:


> Additional paperwork yes but also additional cost which will surely reduce the movement of herps to and from the EU. Then add on the UK cites office delay. Again another factor to put some people off of EU purchases.


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## LiasisUK

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Retailers and individuals that routinely purchase from Europe may not notice any different but what will be different - which I think everyone has acknowledged - is there will be no more 'buying on a whim' from the European Shows because of this additional paperwork.


Exactly this. The extra paperwork is fine, it means I have better records of where everything has come from and is going to. Extra costs are fine if that is what is needed. If you aren't willing to pay the extra costs then I guess don't buy the animal from Europe...


I spent an hour on the phone today to APHA and DEFRA to discuss the issue for my own interests and they were very helpful. If the animals are not CITES then it is very simple and really not a big deal at all, there is next to no delay at all. The woman I spoke to confirmed that no vet health certificate was required for the import or export of reptiles to/from England and the EU, UNLESS SPECIFIED BY THE OTHER COUNTRIES GOVERNMENT so I can't speak for those in NI, as I haven't looked into that.


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## Malc

LiasisUK said:


> I spent an hour on the phone today to APHA and DEFRA to discuss the issue for my own interests and they were very helpful. If the animals are not CITES then it is very simple and really not a big deal at all, there is next to no delay at all. The woman I spoke to confirmed that no vet health certificate was required for the import or export of reptiles to/from England and the EU, UNLESS SPECIFIED BY THE OTHER COUNTRIES GOVERNMENT so I can't speak for those in NI, as I haven't looked into that.


I find this all very interesting, even though it doesn't apply to me as I have no need to import / export animals in the near future. That last statement throws another spanner into the works. Unless the UK offices of APHA / DEFRA provide that information, how will people know if shipping a corn snakes that isn't CITES listed still needs a vet health certificate in the destination country, or would that involve a further phone call to the relevant department in Germany, or Spain to confirm ?

I guess that if you are already use to the import / export process, Brexit won't make a huge difference other than a little more paperwork and additional costs, which no doubt will be passed on to the customer (which is a good thing as it will now give Corn snakes and normal royals a real value). It's for those who would impulse purchase form the European shows that will find the whole process restrictive. How much this will impact vendors at these shows is not clear, but if impulse sales to UK residents were the mainstay of their sales then it's going to impact them just as much.


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## harry python

Good news for businesses like Peregrine and Monkfield on sending animals to Northern Ireland. Cites permits still required but he government has said it will reimburse those costs to the provider under a scheme called Movement Assistance Scheme. I think it runs the other way with a similar scheme set up by NI government.


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## LiasisUK

Malc said:


> I find this all very interesting, even though it doesn't apply to me as I have no need to import / export animals in the near future. That last statement throws another spanner into the works. Unless the UK offices of APHA / DEFRA provide that information, how will people know if shipping a corn snakes that isn't CITES listed still needs a vet health certificate in the destination country, or would that involve a further phone call to the relevant department in Germany, or Spain to confirm ?
> 
> I guess that if you are already use to the import / export process, Brexit won't make a huge difference other than a little more paperwork and additional costs, which no doubt will be passed on to the customer (which is a good thing as it will now give Corn snakes and normal royals a real value). It's for those who would impulse purchase form the European shows that will find the whole process restrictive. How much this will impact vendors at these shows is not clear, but if impulse sales to UK residents were the mainstay of their sales then it's going to impact them just as much.


Yes a bit frustrating but you would have to contact the government office in the other country involved. The CITES website has a list of contact details for who you need to speak to in each country available here. 

There are a huge number of corns and royals produced in the UK every year I do not think these will need to be imported.

But regardless there should be no extra costs involved for non-CITES animals (like corns), they are not really affected. If you are buying them from Europe you just need a certificate of origin, WHICH YOU SHOULD BE ASKING FOR ALREADY. 

Most breeders in Europe will provide this regardless, even now, especially those from France and Germany as it is a legal requirement for them. I also provide these for all my sales to Europe. It just states the sellers details (name, address, email/phone), the buyers details (same again), and the species and quantity. I also include the location of the trade, and the age of the animals.

All that is required if bringing them to England is you contact IPAFFS with a minimum of 24 hours notice of your arrival. You make a free account (it takes less than 5 minutes, I made one yesterday). The information required by IPAFFS appears to be the species, the quantity, the origin, the port you will be arriving at and then the date/time of your arrival. 

So in theory you can impulse buy a non-CITES animal if you allow 24 hours between the purchase and travel back into the UK and notify IPAFFS. 

The complication is CITES animals only really, full list of all CITES species and their appendices is available here

Again all this information is relevant to those living in England, I am unsure about NI.


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## harry python

harry python said:


> Good news for businesses like Peregrine and Monkfield on sending animals to Northern Ireland. Cites permits still required but he government has said it will reimburse those costs to the provider under a scheme called Movement Assistance Scheme. I think it runs the other way with a similar scheme set up by NI government.


Alas not too sure it includes all accrued costs from looking at this (yesterdays) publication on government website. All seems to be focused on the europaen health certificate (EHC) cost and no mention of Cites permit reimbursement. But only 14 days to go now so we will find out soon enough on 01 January 2021.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

My biggest concern is for those working with rarer species which are listed under CITES - I fear this will hinder captive breeding efforts?


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## LiasisUK

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> My biggest concern is for those working with rarer species which are listed under CITES - I fear this will hinder captive breeding efforts?


100% agree, it is a worry. Maybe zoos will have to finally start being more cooperative with private keepers haha


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Lets hope so. 



LiasisUK said:


> 100% agree, it is a worry. Maybe zoos will have to finally start being more cooperative with private keepers haha


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## ian14

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> My biggest concern is for those working with rarer species which are listed under CITES - I fear this will hinder captive breeding efforts?


It won't.
Look at the bigger picture.
Keepers/dealers/breeders have managed just fine trading worldwide outside of the EU.
The difference is, they are used to factoring in the extra time, cost and paperwork.
We in the UK are so inward looking that we can only see trade with the EU. That will still happen, its just that now we, along with all the other 177 countries signed up to CITES will have to do what they all do - get permits.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Well speaking from my own perspective, movement of animals via the European Studbook will be far less straightforward and some may decide it is simply too many 'hoops' to jump through. Although participants are a dedicated bunch - we are all voluntary and have other commitments. 

Speaking to a friend at Chester Zoo, he thinks the movement of animal will be hampered, so much so that animal transfers are taking place fast and furiously at present before the turn of the year. 

Ultimately, I guess we will just have to wait and see how things pan out. 



ian14 said:


> It won't.
> Look at the bigger picture.
> Keepers/dealers/breeders have managed just fine trading worldwide outside of the EU.
> The difference is, they are used to factoring in the extra time, cost and paperwork.
> We in the UK are so inward looking that we can only see trade with the EU. That will still happen, its just that now we, along with all the other 177 countries signed up to CITES will have to do what they all do - get permits.


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## keithshoesmith

*Animal Transport*



Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Well speaking from my own perspective, movement of animals via the European Studbook will be far less straightforward and some may decide it is simply too many 'hoops' to jump through. Although participants are a dedicated bunch - we are all voluntary and have other commitments.
> 
> Speaking to a friend at Chester Zoo, he thinks the movement of animal will be hampered, so much so that animal transfers are taking place fast and furiously at present before the turn of the year.
> 
> Ultimately, I guess we will just have to wait and see how things pan out.


A lot of it is what were use to , things are going to be different so we must adapt easier said then done. In a Couple of years animal movement companys will have a service for the uk some sellers from europe will not want to bother with the hassle to sell to us but im sure others will. I think we are starting to realise late in the day that things are different, im after some cities 11 animals and am going to contact the seller and dutch dragon to see if i can meet up at hamn and have them bring them over. Will keep you updated.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Give it a few months and all the teething problems will be ironed out and it will become the 'norm' but until then there will be some pain to go through.

I can highly recommend DDI.



keithshoesmith said:


> A lot of it is what were use to , things are going to be different so we must adapt easier said then done. In a Couple of years animal movement companys will have a service for the uk some sellers from europe will not want to bother with the hassle to sell to us but im sure others will. I think we are starting to realise late in the day that things are different, im after some cities 11 animals and am going to contact the seller and dutch dragon to see if i can meet up at hamn and have them bring them over. Will keep you updated.


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## harry python

7 days before we reach the new year the government have updated their guidance on animal movements to include non commercial (pet and hobbyist) purchases from the EU. Main points being that owner accompanied imports don't need a health certificate or notification on IPAFFS. No further guidance on Cites as it applies to non commercial EU purchases yet. But saying more adjustments in the pipeline to be announced and implemented by July 2021.


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## harry python

Well folks we are now 4 days into the new era. Anybody tempted to make some EU purchases for this year. After all if your into non cites coulbrids and you are making personal pet purchases shouldn't be too much of a problem. Of course best to be on the same side and probably best to travel by Netherlands and avoid France at all costs.


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## Malc

harry python said:


> Well folks we are now 4 days into the new era. Anybody tempted to make some EU purchases for this year. After all if your into non cites coulbrids and you are making personal pet purchases shouldn't be too much of a problem. Of course best to be on the same side and probably best to travel by Netherlands and avoid France at all costs.


Whilst I was having the car MOT'd the other week I got speaking to another chap who had his own business and he said that a lot of the panic over Brexit in the recent months was purely media hype. The systems and paperwork is already in place, especially as its the same process for importing / exporting to countries outside the EU... the only impact on the deadline has been Covid as staff numbers have been affected which has meant the process may not have been as smooth as they had hoped. The only businesses that this has impacted a lot are those that solely import / export to countries in the EU, so for them the additional paperwork and processes have been a lot to take on board.... but it's not as if Brexit happened overnight... companies have had years to prepare and get to grips with what's required.

Yes for hobbyists who normally pop over to EU shows and typically impulse purchase a reptile and bring it back with them on the ferry it will be problematical... I can see the internet being used more to market and sell snakes to UK customers, so that the correct paperwork can be raised prior to the snake being picked up by the owner or courier and returned to the UK. Alternatively EU breeders will deal directly with UK retailers, thus still providing new bloodlines but taking out the hassle of dealing with individual sales at a show. Granted I think we will see a price increase... Duty on top of VAT will be due... but then that was known from the very start of Brexit (unless you had your head buried in the sand).


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## ian14

harry python said:


> Well folks we are now 4 days into the new era. Anybody tempted to make some EU purchases for this year. After all if your into non cites coulbrids and you are making personal pet purchases shouldn't be too much of a problem. Of course best to be on the same side and probably best to travel by Netherlands and avoid France at all costs.


Sorry, but why the Netherlands rather than France?
It still seems as if you are trying to find ways to dodge the legalities. Otherwise, why suggest exiting the EU via the Netherlands rather than France??
They are both EU states, both operate under the same rules and both part of the same trade deal with the UK.


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## colinm

Because the Dutch authorities follow the EU regulations and the French seem to make their own up ad hoc. Its not worth tge risk assuming that its legal to export from the Hook of Holland and legal to import into Harwich thats the way to go. Forget about Dover - Calais.


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## harry python

colinm said:


> Because the Dutch authorities follow the EU regulations and the French seem to make their own up ad hoc. Its not worth tge risk assuming that its legal to export from the Hook of Holland and legal to import into Harwich thats the way to go. Forget about Dover - Calais.


In the 15 years plus I have been travelling the Hoek to Harwich i have never seen anybody stopped or searched when boarding. On getting back to Harwich the thin UK customs post has the capacity to search about 4 motors per voyage. However, border force have stated that animal checks will be away from the usual place they pull people over to search. Seems if you have cites animals you declare them and you are diverted to another site where you may have to sit and wait hours until somebody turns up to check you out.

But from clarifications on Crimbo eve if you have pet/hobbyist non cites reptiles no notifications or health certificates are required for the moment ahead of full documented long-term policy being promised by July.


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## harry python

Seems walkers have withdrawn from animal transport between the UK and EU/EU Ireland
from their website:

Latest update on livestock transport to/from the EU and Northern Ireland
After carefully studying the new Government guidelines in relation to the transport of live animals between the UK and Northern Ireland and the EU, it is with great sadness that Walkers European Express Services Ltd have decided with immediate effect to stop the EU and Northern Ireland transport of all small birds, all birds in the parrot and similar families, birds of prey and similar species as well as all reptiles, rabbits, rodents and fancy pigeons.

We are still working with our partners in the EU to try and find a solution to transport Racing Pigeons, but at this moment in time even that is not looking promising, but we will keep you updated when we have any more information to issue on this subject.

The EU regulation for the transport of racing pigeons which now needs to be followed is EU2013/139, which to sum up briefly brings into the equation VAT at 20% to be paid upfront (by the buyer), costs at customs, animal health certificates and costs by government vets, quarantine costs, tests (AI/NCD) costs, transportation costs (no more carton boxes, only aluminium baskets/crates allowed).

Delivery times now have to be 21 days or since birth present at the exporter’s premises and possibly 30 days official quarantine upon arrival in the UK at a registered and approved establishment.

The same quarantine rules would also apply to small birds, http://apha.defra.gov.uk/documents/bip/iin/cbtc2.pdf, says that captive birds imported into Great Britain must complete a minimum of 30 days quarantine in an approved quarantine facility or centre.

We estimate of these new regulations would increase your cost of transport at least 10 times the amount we were previously able to charge before the UK left the EU.

As you can now see these new rules make it extremely difficult for a small family business like ours to continue to transport livestock from the EU.

The animal’s welfare, as I’m sure you would all agree, is the main concern here and from a logistical perspective we would never want to endanger their health by being held up at customs checkpoint with the wrong paperwork or insufficient paperwork, therefore putting everyone under extreme pressure.

Our services in England, Scotland and Wales will still run as normal and let us take this opportunity to thank all our customers for their valued business, and we hope you continue using our company to transport your livestock in the future.


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## Malc

Whilst this is a shame, it's not as if it happened overnight. All the quarantining etc is pretty much the same as it is for importing / transporting animals from other countries outside the EU. I think what's caught a lot of companies with the trousers down is that they hoped as part of the deal nothing much would change as far as border controls.

I also found out that a lot of EU based companies no longer want to trade with the UK as this new deal means they effectively have to keep seperate set of accounts for UK VAT as this is now chargeable at the time of purchase and then they have to claim it back from the UK government. Normal practice is to supply ex VAT and then the purchaser pays the VAT and duty at whatever rate is set in their country !


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## harry python

So well and truly past transition and under new import conditions from the EU. Out of interest anybody dipped their toe in the water and tried organising an import. Also anybody still got herps stranded over in the EU from failing to meet the 31 december deadline?


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