# Can tarantulas sense when they get too warm?



## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

I think I asked this ages ago but oh well..

We're turning on the radiators now and my big shelving unit with the various enclosures on is in front of one of them. It's a few inches away so it's not getting burning hot but the backs of some of the enclosures feel warm to the touch, heatmat kind of warm.

Anyway I've noticed all my T's have migrated to this side of their enclosures, near the radiator. My G.rosea never goes over there but now it's wedged against the warm side.

My question is can they thermo regulate? Obviously they've been attracted to the heat but do they have the capacity to walk back to the cooler end if they start getting thirsty or something? I saw my g.rosea in the water bowl earlier, ass in the air with the carapace submerged.:lol2:
our winter is going to be the inverts summer!


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## ph0bia (Feb 21, 2009)

Yes they can, and their natural instinct (if there's no variation between one end of the enclosure or the other) is to burrow further downwards. This is why it is important never to heat your tarantula enclosures from below.

"Damn, it's warm... I'll dig to escape the heat..."
"Whew, it's still warm, better keep going..."
"Man, is it hot! Better... keep... digging..."

etc...


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

ph0bia said:


> Yes they can, and their natural instinct (if there's no variation between one end of the enclosure or the other) is to burrow further downwards. This is why it is important never to heat your tarantula enclosures from below.
> 
> "Damn, it's warm... I'll dig to escape the heat..."
> "Whew, it's still warm, better keep going..."
> ...



darn digging!:lol2: What about walking to the other side of the enclosure? If it digs where it is now it'll have trouble, since it's on top of it's hide(which it never actually goes in...


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## eight legged freak (Apr 23, 2009)

*yer right*

phobia is wright they move 2 where is best 4 them


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

When I just had a few T's they were in the living room near the radiator, and the minute the heating went on, they all went to that side of their tanks.


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

garlicpickle said:


> When I just had a few T's they were in the living room near the radiator, and the minute the heating went on, they all went to that side of their tanks.


were they all ok then? Did they move away after a while? I don't want them to cook lol, although It's not THAt hot.:lol2:


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

If they can survive in the heat of midday in Mexico, I'm sure they can cope with being close to a radiator. :lol2: They'll just move away from that end of the tank if they feel too warm.

My genic's tank is the only one in that room now, and her tank is in a place where it gets a little bit of sun in one corner for a few hours in the afternoon. She is almost always on that spot after lunch, and i swear she's waiting for the sun to come round!


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

garlicpickle said:


> If they can survive in the heat of midday in Mexico, I'm sure they can cope with being close to a radiator. :lol2: They'll just move away from that end of the tank if they feel too warm.
> 
> My genic's tank is the only one in that room now, and her tank is in a place where it gets a little bit of sun in one corner for a few hours in the afternoon. She is almost always on that spot after lunch, and i swear she's waiting for the sun to come round!


I've turned my radiator off, the t's on the shelf near it(rest are above it, so it doesn't really change the time locally) are in glass custom aquaria tanks, although their good they don't have any more ventilation bar the loose sliding glass door, so the water bowl is causing the humidity to up, might take it out every now n then.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

The downwards digging "instinct" is a myth, at least in my experience. 

I used to use a heatmat for all my tarantulas underneath the tank (I've since shifted most to the side, because of the new mats). If it was a hot day, they'd be out on the surface, and on the cold days they'd clear the substrate away from the base of the tank to sit _on _the heatmat. 

Digging in soil does not actually always equate to cooler conditions so this is inconsistent with observed behaviour. For example, soil organisms move downwards in winter; are they doing this to avoid overheating? I think not. The reverse is true in summer with warmer temperatures. Some organisms may only migrate a short distance (10cm) but temperature can vary a lot in soil. It stands to reason that spiders will not always burrow to escape heat since in nature, in winter seasons, burrowing leads to warmer soil temperatures. Obviously, it's better to allow the spider a choice, but the notion that a spider has no sense of heat gradients seems unfounded IMO and other reading.


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2009)

GRB said:


> The downwards digging "instinct" is a myth, at least in my experience.
> 
> I used to use a heatmat for all my tarantulas underneath the tank (I've since shifted most to the side, because of the new mats). If it was a hot day, they'd be out on the surface, and on the cold days they'd clear the substrate away from the base of the tank to sit _on _the heatmat.
> 
> Digging in soil does not actually always equate to cooler conditions so this is inconsistent with observed behaviour. For example, soil organisms move downwards in winter; are they doing this to avoid overheating? I think not. The reverse is true in summer with warmer temperatures. Some organisms may only migrate a short distance (10cm) but temperature can vary a lot in soil. It stands to reason that spiders will not always burrow to escape heat since in nature, in winter seasons, burrowing leads to warmer soil temperatures. Obviously, it's better to allow the spider a choice, but the notion that a spider has no sense of heat gradients seems unfounded IMO and other reading.


I've found the same with scorpions, after years of preaching the "heat mats on the side only rule" I've had to collect my slice of humble pie.

I think we need to give the critters a little more credit, they've been around far longer than us, I think its safe to say they've worked out temperature regulation by now.


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

GRB said:


> The downwards digging "instinct" is a myth, at least in my experience.
> 
> I used to use a heatmat for all my tarantulas underneath the tank (I've since shifted most to the side, because of the new mats). If it was a hot day, they'd be out on the surface, and on the cold days they'd clear the substrate away from the base of the tank to sit _on _the heatmat.
> 
> Digging in soil does not actually always equate to cooler conditions so this is inconsistent with observed behaviour. For example, soil organisms move downwards in winter; are they doing this to avoid overheating? I think not. The reverse is true in summer with warmer temperatures. Some organisms may only migrate a short distance (10cm) but temperature can vary a lot in soil. It stands to reason that spiders will not always burrow to escape heat since in nature, in winter seasons, burrowing leads to warmer soil temperatures. Obviously, it's better to allow the spider a choice, but the notion that a spider has no sense of heat gradients seems unfounded IMO and other reading.





Moonleh said:


> I've found the same with scorpions, after years of preaching the "heat mats on the side only rule" I've had to collect my slice of humble pie.
> 
> I think we need to give the critters a little more credit, they've been around far longer than us, I think its safe to say they've worked out temperature regulation by now.


I agree, T's almost always know where to go for the temp its looking for, so this means digging deeper or a more shallow burrow depending on the temp. All my T's are shelved in a large alcove in the rep room, or stacked againt the side/on top of of the vivs. All are heated from matts and heat cables stuck to the wall. Almost every T is closer to the warmest parts. However, some of the one ones on the top and some on the bottom (shelves) dont have extra heat, but the ones on the bottom have more shallow burrows (as the heat is from above), and the ones on the top have deeper ones (heat is from below) If that makes sense? Some of these are of the same species, so it gives out a pretty good idea that they do know their stuff. lol


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## ph0bia (Feb 21, 2009)

Interesting. I know they can regulate, but I was under the impression that if there was no cooler spot on the surface, they would try to dig regardless.

Blech, best general rule of thumb, if you're worried, shove a thermometer in and check the temperature. If it's getting over 90F, you're getting into problem territory. Over 100F and you *need* to cool that enclosure.


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

ph0bia said:


> Interesting. I know they can regulate, but I was under the impression that if there was no cooler spot on the surface, they would try to dig regardless.
> 
> Blech, best general rule of thumb, if you're worried, shove a thermometer in and check the temperature. If it's getting over 90F, you're getting into problem territory. Over 100F and you *need* to cool that enclosure.


well no one died. She did move half way down the enclosure later on, although the radiator was turning off anyway. I might leave the radiator off in my room, at least until it gets into December.


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## Gomjaba (May 25, 2009)

Moonleh said:


> I've found the same with scorpions, after years of preaching the "heat mats on the side only rule" I've had to collect my slice of humble pie.
> 
> I think we need to give the critters a little more credit, they've been around far longer than us, I think its safe to say they've worked out temperature regulation by now.


Plus I have yet to see heatmats in the wild :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Let's face it, if you are worried about the perfect conditions of your spider / reptile and invert pet, then you might be better of not having any at all .. Some people here claim to have more than 100/200 inverts and surely none of those people are able to give all of them the perfect conditions .. all we can do is try .. but even if you have 1000% perfect conditions - they still die as in the wild the weak and sick are being killed /eaten and in CB every single one gets sold to someone .. so you never know...


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Gomjaba said:


> Plus I have yet to see heatmats in the wild :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> Let's face it, if you are worried about the perfect conditions of your spider / reptile and invert pet, then you might be better of not having any at all .. Some people here claim to have more than 100/200 inverts and surely none of those people are able to give all of them the perfect conditions .. all we can do is try .. but even if you have 1000% perfect conditions - they still die as in the wild the weak and sick are being killed /eaten and in CB every single one gets sold to someone .. so you never know...


Well, I might be the only one, but I would argue that is the reason not to have so bloody many!

Perfect is one thing, but above average should be the aim. Some keepers replicate seasonal fluxes, rainfall patterns and even prey patterns. These keepers should be celebrated as "the aim". I'd rather see people keep 5 spiders brilliantly than 200 species averagely (or worse). Of course, some people keep 200 spiders brilliantly, so it's not purely a number issue. Not saying anyone here is doing badly, but I have seen stuff of questionable merit on other forums, particularly with some US keepers.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

I think its easy to confuse being attracted to heat to being good for it. There are reports of some Ts burning themselves on heatmats, surely if the tarantula were intelligent enough it would move away before this happened. Fact is tarantula are rather primitive creatures and the need to thermoregulate is probably something only required within a captive environment. I could be wrong but I don't think they're capable of doing so.
Contrary to popular conceptions tarantula are rarely seen during the heat of the day but far more active during the night when temperatures are cooler. Andrew Smith noted the MM of Brachypelma smithi wandering during the day in large numbers within Mexico but only for obvious reasons!
Take a look at any of the recent tours by the likes of Ray Gabriel (Turkey), Stuart Longhorn (S. America) and Mark Pennel (Borneo) and you'll notice most are during the night.
It should also be remembered that the purpose of a burrow is not solely to escape from the heat. It conserves a level of humidity as well as protecting the tarantula from prey.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Poxicator said:


> I think its easy to confuse being attracted to heat to being good for it. There are reports of some Ts burning themselves on heatmats, surely if the tarantula were intelligent enough it would move away before this happened. Fact is tarantula are rather primitive creatures and the need to thermoregulate is probably something only required within a captive environment. I could be wrong but I don't think they're capable of doing so.


I think I'm right in asserting that Tarantulas are Poikilothermic; they do not maintain a constant body temp via metabolism. 

As such, they do regulate using behaviour such as burrowing. 

I think the problem in captivity is that gradients tend to be small and can be very gradual. If the gradient operates beneath the threshold a spider can detect changes in, then they may just resort to typified escape behaviours such as digging. For example, if the tank air temp is ~29.8C, the soil surface is 28.5C and the bottom of the 4" substrate is 28.7C, then the spider may not be sensitive enough to the gradient, which is actually running opposite to its movements. 

The other complication is that heatmats heat using IR; doesnt create so much of a heat gradient on the side of the tank as a lamp would, nor does it alter air temps so drastically.


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## ph0bia (Feb 21, 2009)

GRB said:


> I think I'm right in asserting that Tarantulas are Poikilothermic; they do not maintain a constant body temp via metabolism.
> 
> As such, they do regulate using behaviour such as burrowing.


Sort of... from reports I've read, they only thermoregulate by directly using their burrows. If they need to cool down, they move further down the burrow. If they need to warm up, they move upwards towards the surface.

I agree with Pox, there is a difference between attraction and benefit. For example, I'm attracted to the idea of spending my rent money on more spiders, but I doubt I'd benefit from it in the long run!

To GRB, I'd also agree that this is the soft-cap for keeping so many. You keep as many as you can care for... if your standards have to slip to get more, you're at the limit, in my opinion.


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