# beware of habacrete



## fc3schick87 (Jun 14, 2010)

i have been trying to purchase this product for some time now. constantly back and forth with this "person"


they wont give me straight answers and they wont reply to emails in a timely fashion. they sent me a paypal request but they sent it to my email address that i dont have registered with paypal. so i didnt receive the request. they then went to tell me that they would not wish to do business with me because i was being difficult? difficult... hardly .. more like annoyed because it would be several days if not a week before they replied to my questions about their product.

they couldnt even tell me how much it was . it wasnt untill the email after the paypal request , that they finally told me 10$ per pound.


so they told me i could find it locally in texas , in austin or houston. but they didnt say how. so i replied several days ago to that email asking how.... and they still have not responded....



upon further research. its become clear that they are not really a good company to work with and they are very flaky and emotional.


> Kristy--
> 
> I am also trying the concrete idea in my next viv. I contacted Joshs Frogs to see about HabaCrete (the safer the frogs and the less work for me the better) and Josh said not to buy their product, that company screwed him over and wont refund his money or ship him their product... :?
> 
> ...





> I am so glad that this thread is going the way it is. MELLOWROO421 and I were going to go in together on some HabaCrete... After getting a very rude response from the company I was asking questions to, I started to think twice about using the product. Once I got some more information, I decided not to use it. It just isn't worth it to me... $10 a pound (I can get a 90lb. bag of plastic cement for $7... which when dry is sweet!) an 8 square inch by 3/4in thick sheet of cured HabaCrete weighs 1 pound... That is not light enough for me to spend a fortune on. I have also heard that if you do not mix perfectly, thick enough, or wait forever between coats, it cracks a lot.
> 
> I would much rather use Plastic Cement (not model glue, more like mortar but dries smoother than mortar) and spend $7 for a 90lb bag, and neutralize with vinegar and water and wait (you have to wait for the HabaCrete to dry forever anyways, why not save a hundred bucks (for a small project) and get a very similar result. If I end up doing a rock feature of foam and plastic cement, I will create an 8 square inch by 3/4 inch thick sheet and weigh it to see how much heavier it is than HabaCrete.
> 
> ...


posts taken from Conrete stuff - Dendroboard


there are other examples threw a google search of others who have not had good experience with this company either. their website is incomplete and their responses are far from pleasant....


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## fc3schick87 (Jun 14, 2010)

on a side note. habacrete is a form of plaster of paris. plaster of paris hardens in about 30 min and is cured in 24 hours. plaster of paris is non toxic when cured and can be mixed with aggregate at a 30% ratio. 

plaster of paris also sets faster in hotter temps or when mixed with hot water...


it is calcium sulfate hemihydrate and crystalline silica which when mixed with water makes a chemical reaction and causes it to harded.


i am currently undergoing some further testing of plaster of paris, or also known as pottery plaster (bought at hobby store for 5$ for 8lb)

company is usg.com


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Plaster of Paris and Gypsum Stone are not completely waterproof when cured, however - I have several high-end sculptures made in cast Gypsum Stone and the hang tags with them very clearly state that they should be kept dry.


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## fc3schick87 (Jun 14, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> Plaster of Paris and Gypsum Stone are not completely waterproof when cured, however - I have several high-end sculptures made in cast Gypsum Stone and the hang tags with them very clearly state that they should be kept dry.


habacrete is some form of plaster of paris. it may be mixed with something else but its base is plaster of paris. i'm doing more research on this myself. 

gypsum stone sculptures are one thing but.... 


plaster of paris is used in different variants for medical purposes, like for making casts when you fracture something. there are many forms of it available.


there are different styles of plaster of paris and some hold up to water. though it may absorb water, it will hold up to water and retain its form just like concrete. 

:2thumb:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

fc3schick87 said:


> plaster of paris is used in different variants for medical purposes, like for making casts when you fracture something. there are many forms of it available.


And the plaster casts they use when you fracture something, they tell you not to get THOSE wet either 

Absorbing water (or liquids at least) is not a positive thing in the context of being kept in a reptile enclosure with a reptile that may occasionally pass liquid wastes - which can then soak into the plaster and smell or cause additional damage to the plaster's structure.


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## fc3schick87 (Jun 14, 2010)

after doing further research i have found why what i have here is stronger then plaster of paris. 


pottery plaster is composed of 90% plaster of paris (calcium sulfate hemihydrate) 5% portland cement and 5% crystalline silicate.

combining these creates a water resistant plaster.

the plaster alone is very smooth in texture and is hard to really build with, like sandless grout.

adding sand to the pottery plaster gives it build and creates a slurry symilar to "mortar" or "concrete" it was easy to re-create a stone that looks identical to all the habacrete pictures i have seen online.

i have tested it all night in a soak of pure bottle water. i let the water sit in the plastic container for 2 hours. took a ph reading, and found it to be 7. i then dropped in a cured piece of pottery plaster into the water and let it soak over night about 10 hours. i took another ph reading and it was slightly higher only being 8.

in conclusion. i believe habacrete is nothing more then pottery plaster which contains 5% portland cement for added strength and some sort of aggregate for high build. it can slightly alter the ph of water but nothing that soil should correct naturally for plant life. 

usg manufactures this stuff and i bought some at hobby lobby. its available online threw usg in large quantities or threw hobby lobby under 2 different lables 
Plaster.com - Pottery Plaster - USG® Pottery Plaster is great for all types of ceramic slip casting applications.
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here is one of my test rocks , pottery plaster on top of great stuff expanding foam. painted with a gray watery wash of acrylic paint to stain .


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## fc3schick87 (Jun 14, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> And the plaster casts they use when you fracture something, they tell you not to get THOSE wet either


yep, because if you do you're going to get a nasty smell from the cotton padding your skin


> Absorbing water (or liquids at least) is not a positive thing in the context of being kept in a reptile enclosure with a reptile that may occasionally pass liquid wastes - which can then soak into the plaster and smell or cause additional damage to the plaster's structure.


concrete and mortor also absorbs. all these materials are capable of absorbing since they have many pores. unless you seal concrete, mortar, plaster, and also habacrete it will soak in reptile waiste and other smells you have described.

this is how we can stain habacrete with watered down acrylic paint. shown on almost every build using habacrete. because all these materials can absorb the paint.


pottery plater has a 7-14 min work time being more or less depending on method of mixing and water to plaster ratio. habacrete also has the same work period.
habacrete indicates its ready for reptile use in less then 24 hours. pottery plaster takes about 30 min to fully set up and is fully dry in about 24 hours as indicated by the label.


there are many types of plasters available. just look at this site which explains many of them
Waterproof Plaster, Plaster-Of-Paris, Outdoor Casting Plaster for Statues & Exterior & Garden Ornaments, Plaques, Water Features, Ponds, Fountains, Gesso, Latex Moulds, Jesmonite, Silicone Moulds...


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

fc3schick87 said:


> usg manufactures this stuff and i bought some at hobby lobby. its available online threw usg in large quantities or threw hobby lobby under 2 different lables


*grin* Shame most of us on the forum don't have access to American shops like Hobby Lobby - that's one thing I miss about living in the USA 

But your rock build looks awesome - I shall have to look and see if there is a UK equivalent of the potter's plaster available here. Failing that, of course, there's the standby of polystyrene, expanding foam and grout


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## OrigamiB (Feb 19, 2008)

Surely absorbing water is a bad quality in a reptile enclosure? would it not promote growth of mold where urine and faeces have soaked in?

Saying that though I look forward to seeing more from your research as the results from habacrete look absolutely amazing and I have been in the works of designing a project myself that includes a waterfall


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## fc3schick87 (Jun 14, 2010)

OrigamiB said:


> Surely absorbing water is a bad quality in a reptile enclosure? would it not promote growth of mold where urine and faeces have soaked in?
> 
> Saying that though I look forward to seeing more from your research as the results from habacrete look absolutely amazing and I have been in the works of designing a project myself that includes a waterfall


We have to take it upon ourselves to make sure we keep our enclosures clean. 

With that said. I repeat myself by saying concrete mortar and habacrete all absorb liquids. Yet we continue to see habacrete builds that don't have a layer of varnish or sealant. We also see concrete made fake rock walls that, though cured and soaked with water to remove toxic leaching, goes unsealed aswell.

It is up to the user to seal their rock wall. Either being concrete, mortar, habacrete or even those who use grout.

 hope this helps

If u are concerned then seal it.


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## OrigamiB (Feb 19, 2008)

Well, I too have seen them but you don't know the long term effects from seeing a picture as most pictures are not established and have only been set up for a few weeks (or are designs in progress). Seeing as most of these vivariums are designed with the long term in mind it is definately an important issue.

Mold growth in the vivarium, especially if it was well hidden would be a silent killer of your reptiles and i've yet to see an established vivarium that uses an unsealed porous material.
Most grout designs on here use sealant as far as I have seen.

Habacrete does seem to remove the major issues relating to Ph though, although with how many animals will Ph be a major factor with anyway? I am mainly asking as my fake rock vivarium will be used for Crested Geckos.


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## Graham (Jan 27, 2007)

Ever tried using epoxy resin? 

Mix some up and stir in vermiculite or perlite until you have a stiff granular paste, you can then mould it into basic shapes which you can refine when it cures, once hard it can be drilled, sawn, ground etc...

It's light because the aggregate weighs next to nothing, inert, water resistant, and paints easily.

You can change the texture and appearance by adding other things to it such as talc, microballoons (microscopic glass bubbles), stone and metal powders.


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## fc3schick87 (Jun 14, 2010)

OrigamiB said:


> Well, I too have seen them but you don't know the long term effects from seeing a picture as most pictures are not established and have only been set up for a few weeks (or are designs in progress). Seeing as most of these vivariums are designed with the long term in mind it is definately an important issue.
> 
> Mold growth in the vivarium, especially if it was well hidden would be a silent killer of your reptiles and i've yet to see an established vivarium that uses an unsealed porous material.
> Most grout designs on here use sealant as far as I have seen.
> ...


you do raise great questions about the porous nature of these fake rock making materials. its completely up to the builder to do that research and to properly clean their enclosures 


i can tell you that i in fact use a steamer to clean my enclosures. its a portable steamer that looks like a square shop vac. and i put my reptiles in a large bin and remove each item and steam it and spray it with a pet save product used by vets (its blue) and then i place everything back in.

steamers kill 99.9% of bacteria and parasites since it blasts out very hot, well over the 140 degrees needed to kill off almost all nasty germs 

any one can go out and buy concrete and do the steps needed to remove the toxins, with the salt and vinigar soaks and all that. any one can go out and buy a box of grout and seal it. any one can buy habacrete if they can get the seller's attention. 

but the buyer themselves has to know how to properly use it and keep the enclosure clean. its defiantly not a question pointing to the material being used. but by the person using it and how they go about making a clean environment for their critters


if we are going into bacteria infested enclosures, we can point fingers at those who use outdoor carpet, any wood item, rocks, soil, dirt, coconut husk, ect. everything inside the enclosure is at risk of harboring bacteria. but its simply up to the keeper to protect there critter



Graham said:


> Ever tried using epoxy resin?
> 
> Mix some up and stir in vermiculite or perlite until you have a stiff granular paste, you can then mould it into basic shapes which you can refine when it cures, once hard it can be drilled, sawn, ground etc...
> 
> ...


thats really cool!!!
i thought that epoxy resin is rather expensive in large quantity. but being that it sets up like hard plastic it would be extremely easy to keep clean 

very cool idea


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## Graham (Jan 27, 2007)

Not that expensive really, and considerably cheaper in the US than it is here, as usual! When you mix in the aggregates and fillers you actually use very little resin, just enough to bind it all together.

I'm sure you can find lots of sources over there, for brands that we probably don't even get here, but one that I've found especially good and which is made in the US is Epoxy - MAS Epoxies: Home - Build & Repair Boats & Marine, Non-Skid Repair, Cars & Automotive, Woodworking, many other projects - Composites, Fiberglass Resins, Hardeners, Glues, Adhesives.


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## fc3schick87 (Jun 14, 2010)

Graham said:


> Not that expensive really, and considerably cheaper in the US than it is here, as usual! When you mix in the aggregates and fillers you actually use very little resin, just enough to bind it all together.
> 
> I'm sure you can find lots of sources over there, for brands that we probably don't even get here, but one that I've found especially good and which is made in the US is Epoxy - MAS Epoxies: Home - Build & Repair Boats & Marine, Non-Skid Repair, Cars & Automotive, Woodworking, many other projects - Composites, Fiberglass Resins, Hardeners, Glues, Adhesives.


ah ok. im usto working with fiberglass resin. my guess would be this epoxy isnt as stinky though. i would hope not!


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## Graham (Jan 27, 2007)

Nowhere near as bad as polyester resin, epoxy is much more user friendly in that respect, some people develop an allergy to it over time and have to stop working with it, but generally you need a lot of exposure to it in large quantities with lots of skin contact to get a reaction.

Modern formulations are low odour and pretty safe to use, just take obvious precautions such as latex gloves and work in a ventilated room, or outdoors.

If you're used to working with polyester GRP you'll find epoxy easy and relatively pleasurable!


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## fc3schick87 (Jun 14, 2010)

ok so now we're getting to the real good stuff....
perma stone user guide pdf file
perma-stone

MSDS

now... it doesnt list the componants in this material safety data sheet. im still trying to figure that one out...



of course the liquid mix, prior to setting would not be good to ingest, inhale or get in your eyes but they lable it as a non toxic product and when set it is water-resitant just like activa's permastone.

so far i know for certain you can buy activa's permastone from sculpt in larger quantities but spend a bit more. but it is defiantly not 10$ a pound. you can google permastone 28oz and find it for 6$ or 48oz for about 11$, you can possibly pick it up from a local hobby store.

or here are some other places.
Welcome to craftstock.net, an online craft supply store. - Casting Products
Permastone

permastone is a direct replacement for habacrete which is difficult to buy due to poor customer service, the seller is also really hard to even attempt talking to about the product.

perma stone is everything habacrete is. its non toxic. completely inert, water proof and weather proof. i recommend mixing sand in to get more realistic
stones.

i have been researching this ever since i started this thread combing threw many different plasters and materials and i finally found one thats non toxic and water proof!


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