# Who and what are the APA (Animal Protection Agency).



## Mynki

This thread has been created to collate information on the APA. This organisation is being mentioned more and more on the forum. Although the post contains no real new information, it has been put together in order for people who are not entirely sure who they are, and the threat they represent to pet keepers pursuing their lawful hobby.

*Who are the APA?*

The Animal Protection Agency are actually two organisations using two similar names and headed by the same person, Elaine Tolland. They are :- 

Animal Protection Agency Limited - Company No 5180872 

This is a ltd trading company. 

Animal Protection Agency Foundation - Company No 6371987 - Registered Charity No 1123569 

The foundation is both a limited trading company with charitable status. 

Despite the very official sounding name they have no official status. It is highly likely that these names were chosen in an attempt to make them sound more credible and official than they actually are. Both can be considered as animal rights groups. There is currently very little information detailing APA members available to the general public. The operation is headed by the very vocal Elaine Tolland. Recent pictures of her have surfaced on the internet including :- 











Clifford Warwick is another name which appears more and more on APA literature. Mr Warwick was a failed reptile keeper and dealer. It has been suggested by experienced and knowledgeable reptile keepers that this lack of success is behind his attempts to discredit the reptile keeping industry and hobby. His credentials have been questioned by an increasing number of people in recent times and further reading regarding the validity of his work can be found here :- 

Clifford Warwick, Expert or B.Bs.D.? - PJBoosinger

The chances are you'll be impressed with the incredibly long list of letters after his name. Please take this opportunity to investigate their worth independently, and you will discover that many of these 'qualifications' can be purchased. And in reality, the chances are that you have more respected 'earned' and real qualifications than these. To date, I don't believe that any of his published work has been peer reviewed, bringing into question its legitimacy. The following link is a mini biography of Mr Warwick, posted on the web site of animal aid. Another animal rights organisation against private pet ownership :- 

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/NEWS/pr_pets/ALL/37/ 

You may note with interest, that if you want further information on Clifford Warwick there is a number to contact none other than Elaine Tolland. Below pictures the vegan body builder, Clifford Warwick.













This is a recent picture taken at a reptile featuring four people believed to be APA members.











*Number 1* is currently unidentified.

*Number 2* is possibly Debbie Vincent. But this is yet to be confirmed. 

*Number 3* has been named as Alan James Buttle. Like many animal rights campaigners, he has a criminal past. More information about this persons criminal past can be found here, scroll down until you find the section ‘ASBO fool’ :- 

SHACWATCH: April 2009

*Number 4* has been named as Claire Louise Palmer. A known animal rights activist associated to the APA. 

Should you see any of these individuals at a local show, please contact the show organisers immediately. Also, should you find the details of any other members of APA or information relating to any further criminality concerning any of their members, please update this thread. 

*Why do they threaten your pet keeping hobby?* 

In order for the APA to continue they need a cause. They need to undertake campaigns in order to receive continued financial support from their supporters. Somebody has to pay Elaine Tolland's considerable salary and the reptile trade is an easy target. APA continually describe legal and legitimate reptile shows as 'wildlife markets'. This phrase will understandably annoy a naive general public and gain support, as few people will want to see people profiteering from the trade in wild and endangered species. In reality almost all animals offered for sale are captive bred. Ironically many of the selectively bred animals (morphs) in the hobby have a colouration which would mean their chances of survival would be seriously reduced if found in the wild. Some of the brighter more colourful royal pythons and leopard geckos would be far more easy to spot by predators in the wild as two examples. However, this blatant ‘spin’ is cleverly designed to dupe the naive general public into thinking that our shows have a negative impact on wildlife and ecosystems. APA produce very professional looking literature and this propaganda is then sent to local councils claiming that illegal trading is taking place, that the public is at risk from various health threats in order to stop private breeders meetings. Unfortunately some local councils have been taken in by these questionable tactics and have stopped breeders meeting together to allow the sale of their surplus animals. Chris Newman, chairman of the FBH (Federation of British Herpetologists) has written to Elaine Tolland consistently for the last ten years inviting her to such events so that her concerns can be discussed and alleviated, however to date, she has never taken up any of these invitations. 

Both reptile keepers and people associated with venues where shows have been held have been subjected to harrassment and even death threats. It is widely believed that APA members and supporters are behind these terrorist threats. 

The most recent example of the APA trying to dupe the public was a campaign partnered with the cosmetics firm Lush. The APA produced a number of leaflets given to the general public inciting that pet keepers were irresponsible, did not understand the needs of their pets and that pet keepers were contributing to the decline in wildlife. Complaints were made to the ASA (Advertising Standards Authority) about the claims made by the APA and Lush Cosmetics. The ASA rejected just two complaints, but of a total of eight complaints they upheld no less than six, all on the grounds of statements made by APA being untrue. The ASA also noted that APA and Lush provided no scientific evidence in their claims, merely the results of 'surveys'. This is actual evidence of how they try and dupe the general public with unfounded claims into handing over their hard earned cash to further their jobs and careers. The ASA also noted that these leaflets were asking for donations "We also noted that the ad requested donations to the APA as well as promoting animal welfare issues. We therefore considered that the leaflet was an advertisement within the ASA's remit." The full report can be found here :- 

http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/...on-Agency-Ltd/SHP_ADJ_136234.aspx 


*Why should I care? *

Do you want to keep keeping pet reptiles? If the answer is yes, you need to understand that if APA were successful in stopping private breeders meetings going ahead then they would almost certainly target reptile shops next. It is believed that this is their long term plan. The general public does not have a great love of reptile keeping and the untruths spread by these animal rights fanatics could very easily sway the general public’s opinion. This could result in a reduced or even complete ban in the trade of certain captive bred species. Your hobby will suffer as a result. Ask yourself, do you want your hobby and future keeping plans being threatened by a group of people who show no honesty when it comes to reptile keeping? Few people seem to understand how significant this threat is. If the trade in some or all reptiles were to cease in the near future, would you be disappointed or annoyed that the reptile keeping community saw this coming and didn't do enough to prevent it? 

*Should I try to contact the APA and reason with them?* 

Numerous people have tried. And no one has ever succeeded. They are completely unreasonable when it comes to communication as they know that if they ever engaged pet keepers in discussion their arguments would be impossible to substantiate. For example, if you were to ask them why they call our events 'wildlife markets' when indeed almost all animals offered for sale are captive bred, how do you think they could continue their argument? People have tried to reason with them, such as posting comments on their Facebook page, but these are deleted, sometimes within minutes and the poster blocked from commenting further on their page. This is so that their supporters don't see and can thus question the propaganda published online. If the more moderate members of APA understood that they are often duped into believing the spin they are told, it is highly likely that they would lose their respect and thus support for the organisation. 

*What should I not do?* 

Do not send abusive or threatening written communications to the APA of any sort. Do not make abusive or threatening phone calls to any member of APA. These are very easily used against us and give the APA more ammunition to fire back at us. Do not write anything that could be seen as libellous. If you do any of these things you will give a bad impression of the reptile keeping community. Be professional at all times. 

*What can I do to support my hobby? *

Many people want to help. Many people have ideas. And everyone seems to agree that the whole reptile keeping community needs to unite. The internal bickering between various organisations and individuals needs to stop now. Herpers need to come together to protect the hobby. The Federation of British Herpetologists and REPTA (Reptile and Exotic Pet Trade Association) currently fight all legal battles regarding reptile shows. Donate to the FBH fighting fund. This money is used to pay the legal bills associated with keeping our shows going. If you do this, you will make a very quick and tangible impact with helping to protect our hobby. This is one meaningful way in which everyone can contribute to our cause. I see many people setting up their own web pages and Facebook groups to raise awareness of the issue. This is great. But everyone needs to be aware that the battle to keep the reptile keeping hobby as it is will be fought in the courts. At the FBH conference held at the Doncaster Dome on saturday 16th June it was suggested that the battle will actually be fought in the European courts as REPTA and the FBH have managed to defend the hobby well in the UK. But if changes are made to European law, all of this sterling work could be quickly undone. As changes in European law would supersede UK law. It is for that reason that money needs to be raised, so donations from like minded keepers are needed now! 

I'd like to stress that I have no political affiliations with any organisation. I am just a random keeper with a fair sized collection. At some point in the future I may want to keep a Californian kingsnake or Brazilian rainbow boa. I'd like to think that if I wanted too I could just drive to a local shop or visit a local breeders meeting and buy one as I can now. However I'm concerned that this may not be the case in the future. So I sincerely hope that other like minded people of which there are thousands can help to defend their hobby by supporting the FBH and continue to enjoy their hobby in years to come. 

Where can I find further information regarding the associations mentioned above? 

I believe far too few reptile and exotic pet keepers understand the threat their hobby is under. I believe far too few people even know who the animal rights activists who are threatening our hobby are. This thread is not designed to give the opposition more publicity, but to educate the reptile keeping community who are currently unaware of the problem. Even a relatively inexperienced hobbyist will be able to see how truthful the statements APA make are if looking at their website or Facebook page. They will also be able to see how the twist facts in order to show the animal loving, reptile keeping community in a very bad light. And for this reason I believing linking to their website is a good thing. 

*WWW.APA.ORG.UK*

*WWW.FBH.ORG.UK* 

*REPTA *is a trade organisation set up to protect the reptile and exotic pet keeping trade. More information can be obtained from forum member Chris Newman. 

Future shows and the hobby remains under threat. Do you want them to continue? If so, what are you doing to help? Read this link if you want further information. :-

http://the-shg.org/OATA.htm


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## Pete Q

This is a great piece work, well done.


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## Pete Q

I'd just like to add that for those thinking that they are just trying to stop shows are very wrong, if they get their way shows will just be the start, internet sales, breeders, imports, and shops will be next.


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## Rovewot

A couple of thing to add if I may. You can support the FBH by going your local society also, there will be one affiliated to the FBH near you.

As Pete said, do not think this does not affect you if you are not interested in societies or shows, it is your ability to keep animals that is in question here, the alien invasive species bill could stop you from keeping the majority of animals we keep. The FBH have been instrumental in this bill and will continue to fight for us all.


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## Cleggs

Absolutely agree we joined and donated at dony show but I think they do need to join together as the money needed is spreadout at the moment I don't know how many different affiliates there are but would think it would be better in one big pot.we wanted to support as much as we could but giving some to one then some to another doesn'tseem like a logical plan .

P.s I think my wife found the names off members will post them if they turn out to be right


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## badger13

Why is it that so few people seem to make the most noise and cause so much trouble (apa) I think prevention is better than cure. Lets try to educate the general public show them that our reptiles have personalities. and that they are a lot more likely to pick up an infection from people than animals. Educate Educate Educate


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## Graham

Good work, you might want to correct this bit though...



> Complaints were made to the ASA (Advertising Standards Authority) about the claims made by the PA and Lush Cosmetics. The ASA conducted an investigation and upheld two of the complaints.


In fact the ASA _rejected_ two complaints, but of a total of eight complaints they upheld no less than* six*, all on the grounds of statements made by APA being untrue.


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## Khanidge

Very good post. Written with true passion...:2thumb::2thumb:


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## Tarron

Mynki,

This is quite possibly the best thread I've seen in a long time. Great detail, very informative. Although as mentioned, the ASA upheld 6 complaints, which is even better.

Regards,

Tarron


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## ratboy

As a charity, their Trustees and accounts are all in the public domain. You simply have to go to The Charity Commission for England and Wales and enter their charity number in the search box.

The current trustees are Steven Robert Hutton, Sandra Leigh Reddy and Steven Michael Christmas. It is interesting to note that Ms Toland is not a trustee.

Their funding for 2010 was £27,813 income of which they spent £22,170. This decreased in 2011 to £14,678 of which they spent £13,885 ... So basically they have spent some £36,000 in the last 2 years on quests like stopping perfectly legal reptile shows.


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## bbav

More up to date picture of Clifford Warwick here
Clifford Warwick - United Kingdom | LinkedIn
Along with his usual list of fake credentials ofcourse


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## chris25

ratboy said:


> As a charity, their Trustees and accounts are all in the public domain. You simply have to go to The Charity Commission for England and Wales and enter their charity number in the search box.
> 
> The current trustees are Steven Robert Hutton, Sandra Leigh Reddy and Steven Michael Christmas. It is interesting to note that Ms Toland is not a trustee.
> 
> Their funding for 2010 was £27,813 income of which they spent £22,170. This decreased in 2011 to £14,678 of which they spent £13,885 ... So basically they have spent some £36,000 in the last 2 years on quests like stopping perfectly legal reptile shows.


 
is it possible to see what the ltd side of them recieves/spends?


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## Tarron

chris25 said:


> is it possible to see what the ltd side of them recieves/spends?


WebCHeck - Select and Access Company Information

this website shows basics of the account but not the funds. you can buy further details for £1 each though.


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## Poxicator

Interesting read on Clifford Warrick:
A REPLY TO CLIFFORD WARWICK


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## Khanidge

bbav said:


> More up to date picture of Clifford Warwick here
> Clifford Warwick - United Kingdom | LinkedIn
> Along with his usual list of fake credentials ofcourse



Very interesting, look who else has been taking a look at his, and other associates...


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## Mynki

Forty two year old Steven Robert Hutton is one of the current APA foundation trustees is pictured below. If anyone could produce a better picture it would be appreciated!










His website can be found here :-

Steve Hutton :: Home Page

He offers his services to schools, in the way of visits. 

It is possible that he has links with the extremist animal rights group the Animal Liberation Front, one of the more notorious and extreme groups of animal rights terrorists. With his work appearing for sale on their website :-

Vegan and animal rights books


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## Natrix

ratboy said:


> As a charity, their Trustees and accounts are all in the public domain. You simply have to go to The Charity Commission for England and Wales and enter their charity number in the search box.
> 
> The current trustees are Steven Robert Hutton, Sandra Leigh Reddy and Steven Michael Christmas. It is interesting to note that Ms Toland is not a trustee.
> 
> Their funding for 2010 was £27,813 income of which they spent £22,170. This decreased in 2011 to £14,678 of which they spent £13,885 ... So basically they have spent some £36,000 in the last 2 years on quests like stopping perfectly legal reptile shows.


Steven Robert Hutton, Sandra Leigh Reddy and Steven Michael Christmas are the trustees of the Animal Protection Agency Foundation (The charitable section).
Ms Elaine Toland and Mr Thomas Greg Martin are the directors of the Animal Protection Agency (The public limited Company section).

My guess is that this is to keep the two sections as seperate as possible at least on paper.

Gordon
FBH VC


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## Mynki

Graham said:


> Good work, you might want to correct this bit though...
> 
> 
> 
> In fact the ASA _rejected_ two complaints, but of a total of eight complaints they upheld no less than* six*, all on the grounds of statements made by APA being untrue.


Thanks Graham. Can you please edit my post as I don't have access to do so. 

Do you think the ASA would be interested in some of the rubbish posted on their website. They do accept online donations and occasionally sell items on there, so I believe the ASA would have an interest. What are your thoughts?


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## brittone05

IS Sandra Leigh Reddy from East Sussex? It is sorry posted before i could edit lol She is apparently co-habiting with Mr Christmas too according to 192 pages 

Am at a loose end so going to perhaps spend some time digging if that is okay xx


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## Mynki

brittone05 said:


> IS Sandra Leigh Reddy from East Sussex?
> 
> Am at a loose end so going to perhaps spend some time digging if that is okay xx


Indeed. She has a lovely home, but I would have thought she'd / they'd own a more fuel efficient vehicle being a tree hugging type.

Don't you just love the power of the internet............


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## Natrix

Natrix said:


> Steven Robert Hutton, Sandra Leigh Reddy and Steven Michael Christmas are the trustees of the Animal Protection Agency Foundation (The charitable section).
> Ms Elaine Toland and Mr Thomas Greg Martin are the directors of the Animal Protection Agency (The public limited Company section).
> 
> My guess is that this is to keep the two sections as seperate as possible at least on paper.
> 
> Gordon
> FBH VC


Also forgot to add There is a fourth trustee for the foundation called 
Ms Vanessa Kelley.


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## Richard Hanson

I think we should stalk them and discreetly add bacon shreddings to their food.

Vegan hack.


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## bothrops

Mynki said:


> Thanks Graham. Can you please edit my post as I don't have access to do so.
> 
> Do you think the ASA would be interested in some of the rubbish posted on their website. They do accept online donations and occasionally sell items on there, so I believe the ASA would have an interest. What are your thoughts?


Sorted :2thumb:


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## Sephiroth

Mynki said:


> Thanks Graham. Can you please edit my post as I don't have access to do so.
> 
> Do you think the ASA would be interested in some of the rubbish posted on their website. They do accept online donations and occasionally sell items on there, so I believe the ASA would have an interest. What are your thoughts?


the ASA don't deal with material on a company's website sadly. For that you would need to go to Trading Standards or/and the Charity Commission.

EDIT : I stand corrected... since the Lush campaign it appears the rules have changed and ASA do deal with web content now.

New ASA rules for website content


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## Poxicator

Sephiroth said:


> ... since the Lush campaign it appears the rules have changed and ASA do deal with web content now.
> 
> New ASA rules for website content


Then perhaps for the same reasons, all of its claims should be reported as they don't just originate on their website.
Animal Protection Agency | Cision Wire


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## Mynki

Natrix said:


> Also forgot to add There is a fourth trustee for the foundation called
> Ms Vanessa Kelley.


She is no longer a trustee, having resigned. However it is highly likely that she is still a supporter. By day she works as a seemingly respectable IFA in Brighton.










However her Facebook profile has shown that she has some interesting associations.

Welcome to Facebook

She's a fan of..

Welcome to Facebook

One of the more extreme animal rights terrorists lot.


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## Mynki

bothrops said:


> Sorted :2thumb:


Thank you. 

I note that they're fairly quiet on FB and their website. The last update reads :-



> This is a call to whistleblowers in the reptile-keeping community! APA is well aware that many people who have reptiles also oppose animal trading, and even some who sell exotics oppose at least some aspects of the industry. Many of these keepers and sellers disagree strongly with the selling of animals at markets. Our (at least 'semi-like-minded') exotic pet-keeping followers have already joined APA or have provided us with valuable ‘inside’ information and active involvement - which has been greatly appreciated! We are seeking further information from you now in the event that reptile sellers arrive at the Dome market and fail to heed the prohibition on sales imposed by Doncaster Council and therefore attempt to break the law. The Council and APA are already in a position to gather evidence for prosecution for the acts of offering for sale or selling any animal. APA's interest has now extended to the activities of sellers (whether claiming to be 'hobbyists' or formal traders) and the considerable sums they seek to make from pet peddling, and whether their current and historical activities involve up-to-date payment of revenue on all income.
> APA has already prepared files for HMRC (Inland Revenue) on traders (whether describing themselves as 'hobbyists' or not) that had booked stalls hoping to sell at the Doncaster market. Our list of sellers is almost complete, but we have been made aware that some sellers book stalls using pseudonyms. Therefore, we are particularly seeking information on sellers who may have tried to book stands in alternative names or in the names of partners, relatives and friends. In order to verify and forward any additional information in good time to HMRC we would need this information before 1500hrs Friday 15th June. If you can help, please email us at [email protected]
> Thank you!


You can report people to HMRC at any time. I suspect this was a desperate last ditch attempt to glean some facts before the court case that they lost, the date and time being a giveaway.

I was talking to a fellow forum member at Doncaster on sunday morning about this. He pointed out that if hobby breeders did submit a tax return for their small scale breeding operations and put down all of their costs, electricity, water, housing, feeding and equipment etc they'd probably be due a tax rebate if they have a PAYE full time job seeing as it's not easy to make a real profit breeding reptiles!


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## Pete Q

Mynki said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I note that they're fairly quiet on FB and their website. The last update reads :-
> 
> 
> 
> You can report people to HMRC at any time. I suspect this was a desperate last ditch attempt to glean some facts before the court case that they lost, the date and time being a giveaway.
> 
> I was talking to a fellow forum member at Doncaster on sunday morning about this. He pointed out that if hobby breeders did submit a tax return for their small scale breeding operations and put down all of their costs, electricity, water, housing, feeding and equipment etc they'd probably be due a tax rebate if they have a PAYE full time job seeing as it's not easy to make a real profit breeding reptiles!


They then go on to talk about how they have had some help with the above and thank them for the info passed on to them. Sorry, talking in regards to the whistle bowers wanted.


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## bbav

Pete Q said:


> They then go on to talk about how they have had some help with the above and thank them for the info passed on to them. Sorry, talking in regards to the whistle bowers wanted.


I would ignore that!
It will be more lies to try and get us to mistrust each other.
Surely this page https://www.facebook.com/pages/From-Dusk-til-Dawn/315756412010
Should be taken off of facebook under their anti-terrorism clause?


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## Poxicator

I'm removing the list. I see it of no value, only encourages a witch hunt and its aimed at anyone who has "liked" their page, which is quite different from supporting APA.

Personally I think we should all be very careful who we point the finger at, there may be legal implications in doing so and as can clearly be seen here can imply inaccuracies.


[EDIT] Names have now been removed. If any other names are required to be moved please let me know.
But please folks, if you are complaining about the names being mentioned, think twice before repeating those names in your own replies!


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## Mynki

If possible and if others agree can we remove post 30 and onwards please? The thread is for awareness of the apa. Not outing people who may like them. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to like whoever they want to as any Peter Andre or Val Doonican fan would probably tell you.


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## Dave Balls

chris25 said:


> is it possible to see what the ltd side of them recieves/spends?


Here is a link to all their publicly available accounts etc from companies house.

Its interesting that in their memorandum they mention much more about money than animals. :whistling2:

I really think a good Private investigator would tear these people apart. 

http://daveballs.co.uk/dave/apa.zip


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## bothrops

Mynki said:


> If possible and if others agree can we remove post 30 and onwards please? The thread is for awareness of the apa. Not outing people who may like them. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to like whoever they want to as any Peter Andre or Val Doonican fan would probably tell you.


 
Done.

Please keep this thread on topic - i.e a place to list specific members of the APA and their policies, positions and roles within the society. This is not a place for mud slinging or abuse, or propaganda.

The point of this thread is only to post *factual information* that is *already publically available* about members of the APA to ensure that we know who and what we are up against.

Cheers

Andy


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## Mynki

Natrix said:


> Steven Robert Hutton, Sandra Leigh Reddy and Steven Michael Christmas are the trustees of the Animal Protection Agency Foundation (The charitable section).
> Ms Elaine Toland and Mr Thomas Greg Martin are the directors of the Animal Protection Agency (The public limited Company section).
> 
> My guess is that this is to keep the two sections as seperate as possible at least on paper.
> 
> Gordon
> FBH VC


I think Mr Martin prefers to go by his middle name. He prefers to be called Greg.











http://www.facebook.com/greg.martin.372?sk=wall

I note with interest he is also a friend of David Allcock. Partner of Julie Toland. Yep, you've guessed it, she's the sister of Elaine Toland. Julie and David are the two directors of Allcocks Outdoor Store LTD.

Discount Outdoor Clothing | Fishing Tackle Shop | Shotguns For Sale | Musto Jackets Sale - ALLCOCK'S OUTDOOR STORE

Elaine has 'liked' Julies comments relating to her gunsniths / angling center. This surprises me as Elaine Toland has a lot of history with Animal Aid an organisation that publically oposes fishing, shooting, wildfowling, hunting etc.

This makes me question the true purpose of her setting up the APA. I also wonder what some of her supporters would make of that!


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## hogboy

Animal Aid are definitely Not fans of Angling, this is getting weirder by the day ????

Animal Aid: Angling


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## Captainmatt29

She's in it for the money


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## Cleggs

Sorry ive not been on or I would of removed my post if it offended anyone.I certainly didnt mean to (mudsling) anyone it was just supporters lists of which I said nothing offensive about .


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## jav07

Mynki said:


> I think Mr Martin prefers to go by his middle name. He prefers to be called Greg.
> 
> image
> 
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/greg.martin.372?sk=wall
> 
> I note with interest he is also a friend of David Allcock. Partner of Julie Toland. Yep, you've guessed it, she's the sister of Elaine Toland. Julie and David are the two directors of Allcocks Outdoor Store LTD.
> 
> Discount Outdoor Clothing | Fishing Tackle Shop | Shotguns For Sale | Musto Jackets Sale - ALLCOCK'S OUTDOOR STORE
> 
> Elaine has 'liked' Julies comments relating to her gunsniths / angling center. This surprises me as Elaine Toland has a lot of history with Animal Aid an organisation that publically oposes fishing, shooting, wildfowling, hunting etc.
> 
> This makes me question the true purpose of her setting up the APA. I also wonder what some of her supporters would make of that!


i mentioned this on a different thread on here and within an hour or so alot of the links and likes disappeared from apa facebook,i used to buy gear from Allcocks...not anymore


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## Captainmatt29

Wouldn't surprise me if they religiously watch this forums using many different aliases


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## Pete Q

This is a good bit of work.


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## Moshpitviper

I can shed some light on the gentleman in picture number one. It's one 'Harold Bishop', off of Neighbours.


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## galactico

mattd24 said:


> Wouldn't surprise me if they religiously watch this forums using many different aliases


id be surprised if they dont to be honest,these amateurs need any help they can get:lol2:


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## Tarron

galactico said:


> id be surprised if they dont to be honest,these amateurs need any help they can get:lol2:


Don't kid yourself mate, they're nowhere near amateurish. They very organised and very connected. They know exactly where to hit, when to hit and how to hit.


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## Pete Q

galactico said:


> id be surprised if they dont to be honest,these amateurs need any help they can get:lol2:


And it's very likely they do get help, remember they broke off from animal aid, very likely they get just about any support they need.


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## Pete Q

Tarron said:


> Don't kid yourself mate, they're nowhere near amateurish. They very organised and very connected. They know exactly where to hit, when to hit and how to hit.


Totally right. : victory:


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## Dave Balls

- yearly budget of 85,000 euro (£67,000) 
- Spends on EU representation 50,000 euro (£39,000)
- Declares membership of endcap

Search register - Transparency Register

they are small fry!


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## Pete Q

Dave Balls said:


> - yearly budget of 85,000 euro (£67,000)
> - Spends on EU representation 50,000 euro (£39,000)
> - Declares membership of endcap
> 
> Search register - Transparency Register
> 
> they are small fry!


After years of fighting the reptile hobby I'd be pretty confident animal aid are right behind them in any support they need, so I wouldn't read to much into those figures, given there track recond of lies I would have to ask are those figures for real anyway.


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## Tarron

Whether they spend 10 pound or 10 million pounds, they are one of our biggest threats and should never be considered 'small fry'. At the end of the day, they are able to spend far more than the fbh or ihs or other organisations in EUR so they are a threat.


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## Pete Q

Tarron said:


> Whether they spend 10 pound or 10 million pounds, they are one of our biggest threats and should never be considered 'small fry'. At the end of the day, they are able to spend far more than the fbh or ihs or other organisations in EUR so they are a threat.


Yes good point.


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## Mynki

Guys

It would be great if we keep this thread on track. It was produced to educate fellow hobbyists on what the APA are and to explain the very real threat they present to the hobby.

I'm convinced that they do monitor these threads. I've witnessed changes to vatious FB profiles very soon after they were written. Coincidence? Unlikely in my opinion. 

They are anything but amateurs. Look at it this way, how much have the UK and US as well as all the other allies spent on their efforts to defeat the taliban in Afghanistan? Yet they're far from being successful. Budget isn't relevant to success.


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## Graham

Writing them off in this way is to underestimate the threat they pose, if they really are just amateurs and small fry then they're incredibly effective ones, if a bunch of six people with dodgy pasts can get reptile shows banned up and down the country as they do, what does that say about several thousand reptile keepers who are struggling to keep pace with them?


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## Poxicator

comments removed


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## crobinc840

No 4 is not Debbie Vincent who is soon to go to prison again for her involvements in SHAC. Here's a bit more on Steve Hutton








St Johns Row, Langcliffe 
SETTLE
NORTH YORKSHIRE
BD24 9NJ

Calder Valley Election Forum 2001

Shop
Blog, reflections, interviews and articles | illustratedwordgallery | Illustrated Word, the illustration and storytelling gallery

Trumacar Nursery and Community Primary School 'Inspiring Education, Achieving Our Dreams' - 2011-11-17 Visit to meet Steve Hutton
Animal Aid
The Old Chapel
Bradford Street
Tonbridge
Kent TN9 1AW

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/images/pdf/waranimals.pdf

Wildwood Witches | A beautifully drawn portrait gallery of witches


https://www.facebook.com/pages/Wild-Wood-Witches/228303630545400



https://www.facebook.com/APAWild


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## blood and guts

I will always be up for fighting the rubbish this this spout however its time we did more to deal with the real enemy that gives them endless ammo to fire at us and that our own side!
Just look at housing standards and some of the problem morphs still being bred, the over breeding of common spieces and so on! 
If we want to fight the animal rights groups we must do more to fight the poor standards we see day in day out in our own ranks!


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## crobinc840

You are very right when you see rows and rows stacked up of reptiles in plastic containers it's not helpful but the manner that the extremists fight against this is wrong. There should be regulations created by the reptile community to ensure the reptiles are receiving proper care and less stress.


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## Tarron

crobinc840 said:


> You are very right when you see rows and rows stacked up of reptiles in plastic containers it's not helpful but the manner that the extremists fight against this is wrong. There should be regulations created by the reptile community to ensure the reptiles are receiving proper care and less stress.


Should be? Or ARE


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## crobinc840

Tarron said:


> Should be? Or ARE



If there are regulations why would this group chose to video these conditions instead of reporting it? It seems they are using the animals just as much as the people that are selling them.


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## wilkinss77

crobinc840 said:


> If there are regulations why would this group chose to video these conditions instead of reporting it? It seems they are using the animals just as much as the people that are selling them.


because the APA are hypocrites & liars.


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## Dragon Farm

blood and guts said:


> I will always be up for fighting the rubbish this this spout however its time we did more to deal with the real enemy that gives them endless ammo to fire at us and that our own side!
> Just look at housing standards and some of the problem morphs still being bred, the over breeding of common spieces and so on!
> If we want to fight the animal rights groups we must do more to fight the poor standards we see day in day out in our own ranks!


I couldn't agree more.

I am a strong believer that we are own worst enemies. The APA is provided with plenty of good evidence by us of animal cruelty. I am surprized at how often keepers are willing to overlook bad pratice, as long as its by somebody with a good reputation of providing certain nice morphs.


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## Khonsu

Mynki, excellant original post, I doff my hat to you :2thumb:


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## Dragon Farm

crobinc840 said:


> No 4 is not Debbie Vincent who is soon to go to prison again for her involvements in SHAC. Here's a bit more on Steve Hutton
> image
> St Johns Row, Langcliffe
> SETTLE
> NORTH YORKSHIRE
> BD24 9NJ
> 
> Calder Valley Election Forum 2001
> 
> Shop
> Blog, reflections, interviews and articles | illustratedwordgallery | Illustrated Word, the illustration and storytelling gallery
> 
> Trumacar Nursery and Community Primary School 'Inspiring Education, Achieving Our Dreams' - 2011-11-17 Visit to meet Steve Hutton
> Animal Aid
> The Old Chapel
> Bradford Street
> Tonbridge
> Kent TN9 1AW
> 
> http://www.animalaid.org.uk/images/pdf/waranimals.pdf
> 
> Wildwood Witches | A beautifully drawn portrait gallery of witches
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Wild-Wood-Witches/228303630545400
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/APAWild


What exactly is the point of listing this persons home address ? I am not sure what it is meant to achieve ? If one reptile keeper is tempted to do something stupid, is that going to help our cause ?


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