# marine filteration???



## del_044 (Jan 29, 2007)

in marine fish only tanks, can you use an internal filter or does it have to be a sump?


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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

You don't really use a filter as such. If you use live rock, that will do the majority. You can use external filters/sump/back compartment for things like phosphate remover, carbon etc


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

ive bought a wee hang on the outside of the glass filter.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Frostpaw said:


> ive bought a wee hang on the outside of the glass filter.


And as before, I'd use it for mechanical and chemical filtration and _not_ biological filtration, it'll just work as a nitrate factory most likely.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

AshMashMash said:


> And as before, I'd use it for mechanical and chemical filtration and _not_ biological filtration, it'll just work as a nitrate factory most likely.


Sick of hearing this nitrate factory twaddle. They don't make nitrate out of thin air they produce nitrate quickly because they are efficient filters.That is what is needed in FO .

Live rock alone is NOT enough filtration for a well stocked FO system thats why there are so many people having wipeouts and WS problems over on UR .


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

_simon_ said:


> You don't really use a filter as such. If you use live rock, that will do the majority. You can use external filters/sump/back compartment for things like phosphate remover, carbon etc


And that will support a well stocked fish only tank will it ? Don't think so.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

Its a case of 50/50 

Live rock can only take you so far, a filter can take you the rest of the way.

Point out a marine tank to me that DOESNT use a filter.....


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Frostpaw said:


> Point out a marine tank to me that DOESNT use a filter.....


99% of reef tanks?

Eta: before people start being finnicky, talking biological media filters here....


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Really not meaning to be silly... but honestly, plenty of live rock is the way forward... my nitrates are <0.2 and phosphates ~0.0*0*8...

So these tanks have the following equipment:










Equipment
_Skimmer:_ Deltec APF600
_Control System:_ Aquatronica, Tunze 7095
_Lights – T5:_ ATI Sunpower 8x39W Dimmable
_Lights – Moonlights:_ Cheap LED strips 
_Pumps:_ Eheim 3000+, Tunze Silent Pump, MP40, 2x Tunze 6055 
_Top up:_ Tunze Osmolator 5017
_Heaters:_ Visitherm 300w
_RO Unit:_ D-D 4 stage 75gpd + D-D Booster pump
_Chiller/Cooler:_ Clip on fan
_Ultra Violet:_ D-D 20W
_Phosphate reactor:_ Phosban 150
_Carbon reactor:_ Phosban 150
_Other equipment:_ Reef Scientific Ozoniser
_Dosing Pump:_ Aquatronica 3 channel













Equipment
_Skimmer:_ Deltec 2060 SC and MC 500
_Control System:_ TC10
_Lights – Halides:_ Giesemann
_Lights – Moonlights:_ Aqua Rays 
_Pumps:_ Eheim 3500, 2x MP40 W ES, 2x Tunze 6055 
_Top up:_ Tunze Osmolator 
_Heaters:_ 2x 250w
_RO Unit:_ D-D 4 stage 100gpd
_Chiller/Cooler:_ Clip on fan and Extractors
_Phosphate reactor:_ D-D 
_Carbon reactor:_ Deltec 509
_Other equipment:_ V2 Ozoniser















Equipment
_Skimmer:_ Bubble King 300 internal and Bubble King 500 external
_Control System:_ GHL Profilux3
_Lights – Halides:_ 8 x Reeflux 10k, 1 x Reeflux 12k- within 3 x Giesemann Spectra units
_Lights – VHOs:_ 10 x Narva Blue T5, 2 x KZ Fiji Purple T5- within 3 x Giesemann Spectra units
_Pumps:_ 3 x Abyzz 420, 1 x Abyzz Commercial Stream
_Top up:_ GHL with optical sensor
_Heaters:_ TMC Titanium commercial 3kW heater
_RO Unit:_ RO Man 2000GPD Commercial unit with 25L DI Resin Chamber
_Chiller/Cooler:_ 10kW Air conditioner
_Ultra Violet:_ TMC 8 x 50W Commercial UV unit 
_Auto Feeder:_ DIY Freezer
_Calcium Reactor:_ Custom 4500L DaStaCo Extreme IV Calcium Reactor with ECO2 Mod
_Other reactors:_ DI pods for Aquaphos xtra, Schuran Ozone Reactor
_Other equipment:_ 4 x 125W CFL Growlights in reflector hoods












Equipment
_Skimmer:_ Deltec TS 1250
_Lights – T5's:_ ATI 6x 39 w powermodule & 3x twin 54w Razorlights
_Pumps:_ Ocean runner OR6500 x2
_Top up:_ Deltec
_Heaters:_ jager 3609 300 w
_RO Unit:_ 4 stage 75 GPD with twin membrane
_Other reactors:_ Gyractor & Bio Pearls


No filters on these?


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

alan.. this is simply not good enough.... i cant see a single picture!


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Frostpaw said:


> alan.. this is simply not good enough.... i cant see a single picture!


Alan?! 

Go HERE... look at every single "TOTM". I know that you may not like every single tank of the month or want your tank to look like that, point being though none of them use filters.


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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

I don't use a biological filter. Yes I have an external filter but the only thing in it is seachem purigen, I mainly use it to power an external heater and a phosphate reactor. The advice I got when looking to set up (not from this forum, from marine forums) was like ash says, not to use biological filters due to a build up in nitrates.


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## del_044 (Jan 29, 2007)

is the answer to my question answered???

if i got say...a fluval filter that would be found inside a tropical tank, would it be enough in a mirine FO only tank?


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

Ok, this is one of the many debated topics and I've researched and asked many experienced Marine Reef keepers.


There are a lot of people who say don't put an external on but the average answer I got was all filteration is a good thing in a reef tank as long as it's maintained obviously. You can't just add it and then leave it years without rinsing (in tank water) because then you will get a build up of Nitrates that may seep back into the tank. You have to keep on top of it, but it's not hard to do.

After someone told me to take away my External and uv filter my tank went down hill so I connected it back up straight away and everything is going well (touch wood)

Yes, the live rock in your tank is biological filter but is it enough?
I have a fluval external with live rock in mine too for extra help. 

This is just what I've learned and only my opinion after asking many people. And you have to decide what's best for you and your tank of course 

So it's up to you.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

del_044 said:


> is the answer to my question answered???
> 
> if i got say...a fluval filter that would be found inside a tropical tank, would it be enough in a mirine FO only tank?


Depends on your bioload ,gallonage etc if it was the only filtration probably not they don't have a very large capacity.

I suppose you could use several internals ,there is many ways to run a successful marine tank especially fish only .


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

AshMashMash said:


> Alan?!
> 
> Go HERE... look at every single "TOTM". I know that you may not like every single tank of the month or want your tank to look like that, point being though none of them use filters.


I don't want to argue with you as I'm not a old hand at this and you are more experienced than me, but the first one I read on there had a sump, which is like a filter in a way yes? :whistling2:


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

JoPwerks said:


> I don't want to argue with you as I'm not a old hand at this and you are more experienced than me, but the first one I read on there had a sump, which is like a filter in a way yes? :whistling2:


What?! They all have sumps, I have a sump. No a sump is _not_ like an external filter. 

All a sump is, is an extension of your tank, a place to put all your equipment so it's not on show in the display tank. It doesn't contain biological media.

So no, it's not at all like a filter. 




In answer to above where you say you had a filter, tried removing it and things went wrong... well, what did you expect to happen? You just removed a massive amount of the biological filtration, things aren't going to go hunky-dory are they. 



Look I am not saying that no one _ever_ should use external filters on marine tanks (for bio filters), just that we've come a long way from those old school thoughts, and that actually we know we can much better maintain tanks using only live rock, like every single one of those TOTM's shows. You don't see any TOTM's using external filters for their bioload.

My old marine tank, 180L one, had an external. It also had high nitrates and soaring phosphates, and thusly masssive algal problems....


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

AshMashMash said:


> What?! They all have sumps, I have a sump. No a sump is _not_ like an external filter.
> 
> All a sump is, is an extension of your tank, a place to put all your equipment so it's not on show in the display tank. It doesn't contain biological media.
> 
> ...



Ok! There's no need to be like that (your first part of your message sounds like your angry ), removing it was advice from your so called experts on Ultimate reef and then When I said I had done that I had loads of different people On UR saying no way should you not have an external, so in the end who do you believe?? 
In my local FS they took me out the back room to see what they have and they all have external filters and uv's. 

I'm not saying anyone is wrong just what I've been told by very experience (been doing Marine for 20 years or so) and I'm certainly not going to argue with them.

As for the sump, lots of people have the same in them as an external filter that's all I'm saying. 
I've just googled sumps and they have the same stuff I took out of mine and just put live rock.


And by the way I didn't have any live animals in it when I took the filter away, so nothing suffered, I was talking about the parameters :2thumb:

And I would love nothing more than to have just the live rock etc, less electrics with no uv and external but I seriously don't know who to listen to now.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

I'll break it down for you:



JoPwerks said:


> Ok! There's no need to be like that (your first part of your message sounds like your angry ),


I'm not angry? Just don't try and "catch me out"... sump is _not_ at all like an external filter in that it does not contain biological media in an enclosed box with water running through it. 



JoPwerks said:


> removing it was advice from your so called experts on Ultimate reef and then When I said I had done that I had loads of different people On UR saying no way should you not have an external, so in the end who do you believe??


Lol, it's called a forum? I said it's a good place to learn, not a place to listen to 100% of the users opinions like gospel. If you do what someone on a forum tells you without doing your own research you're a fool (including doing what I'm telling you - do your own research!).



JoPwerks said:


> In my local FS they took me out the back room to see what they have and they all have external filters and uv's.


Of course they do! They have massive sand bad fluidised filters most of the time because these can hold a simply astonishing amount of biological activity... and their stock goes from 0 to 100's every few days. Obviously they don't rely on live rock - but they do rely on massive bio filters, and cleaning off the glass daily :whistling2:



JoPwerks said:


> As for the sump, lots of people have the same in them as an external filter that's all I'm saying.


Nope.



JoPwerks said:


> And by the way I didn't have any live animals in it when I took the filter away, so nothing suffered, I was talking about the parameters :2thumb:


Lol I didn't say you did? I said, like you just said, that if you suddenly remove a massive amount of biological media in one fell swoop your "parameters" will go up, like they did.



JoPwerks said:


> And I would love nothing more than to have just the live rock etc, less electris with no uv and external but I seriously don't know who to listen to now.


Listen to who you want, but seriously... go through every single one of the "TOTM" pics on that link and see what they're using. Not saying there is never ever another way to run a tank, but if _every_ single one of them doesn't use externals and only relys on live rock... what's that suggesting?


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

AshMashMash said:


> I'll break it down for you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh good god, there's no need to break it down for me, I'm not a kid, I'm a 41 year old woman, who my god did months and months of research, chatting to people who know better than me and reading hundreds of those posts and books so please don't insinuate I took it away cause someone like you said you shouldn't have it, I just presumed these people who have had Marines for years knew better than me, so I listened.

You gave advice above the op not to use a filter, all I'm saying is what happened to me and what I've been told by people who actually do it for a living.

I'm not going to argue about the sump but I've seen some with live rock in, I've seen some with those plastic things in etc (same as externals) and they have tubes going in and out of the tank, so that's why I said it's like a filter, I was not trying to catch you out at all!! If I've got it wrong then I got it wrong but it looks like a filter to me :blush:

I was just making sure everyone knew that no livestock has been harmed in my tank, by removing it or putting it back. :2thumb:


First Marine book I read (showing you how to set it up) was showing how to fit your external filter. 


All the tanks I've seen on there and Nano Reefs are fantastic and I hope Mine will be the same, but to be honest it's very difficult to know what advice is right, so making an informed choice is all you can do... And that's what I said above too!!


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

JoPwerks said:


> Oh good god, there's no need to break it down for me, I'm not a kid, I'm a 41 year old woman, who my god did months and months of research, chatting to people who know better than me and reading hundreds of those posts and books so please don't insinuate I took it away cause someone like you said you shouldn't have it, I just presumed these people who have had Marines for years knew better than me, so I listened.
> 
> You gave advice above the op not to use a filter, all I'm saying is what happened to me and what I've been told by people who actually do it for a living.
> 
> ...


Yep and again, my advice to the OP would be to not use an external filter. 

An external filter is a water tight, contained box which has water flowing through it for the purpose of mechanical/biological/chemical filtration. A sump is simply a tank near your main tank that you can put equipment in, including sometimes live rock (but not that often), but in a way totally different to the water tight sealed external filter. 

I completely agree with RE the books... my first marine book was very much of that ilk too. I am not sure when yours was published, but certainly I think the use of externals was still really common up until recently. 

Anyways, I must dash, my phosphate reactor has just turned up :flrt:


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

AshMashMash said:


> Yep and again, my advice to the OP would be to not use an external filter.
> 
> An external filter is a water tight, contained box which has water flowing through it for the purpose of mechanical/biological/chemical filtration. A sump is simply a tank near your main tank that you can put equipment in, including sometimes live rock (but not that often), but in a way totally different to the water tight sealed external filter.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but I must be dim here but I have no chemical filtration in my external, only live rock, so isn't that biological? 

Well, to be honest it does look like an old book, but there isn't a date on it, so I don't know. 

My tank came with the External filter and uv, which she had been running for 2 years, so it can't be all that bad. 

I have Rowaphos, :2thumb:

I must dash too, I have a farm to see to  Thanks for the discussion. I'm going to keep the filter and see what happens, :2thumb:


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

JoPwerks said:


> I don't want to argue with you as I'm not a old hand at this and you are more experienced than me


He doesn't have more experience than you ! He's been in the marine hobby for less than a year.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

JoPwerks said:


> Sorry, but I must be dim here but I have no chemical filtration in my external, only live rock, so isn't that biological?
> 
> Well, to be honest it does look like an old book, but there isn't a date on it, so I don't know.
> 
> ...


Live rock is biological? I didn't say you chemical media in it... however now you mention it, where's the rowa?



Graylord said:


> He doesn't have more experience than you ! He's been in the marine hobby for less than a year.


:lol2::lol2: If you say so Darwen!


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

SO. considering the tank size - larger is more stable... what would you recommend for a 30ltr nano tank?

I have every intention of using a small hang on the glass external, a mini protein skimmer with pump, and heater.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Frostpaw said:


> Slarger is more stable... what would you recommend


Bigger tank :lol2:



Frostpaw said:


> SO. considering the tank size - larger is more stable... what would you recommend for a 30ltr nano tank?
> 
> I have every intention of using a small hang on the glass external, a mini protein skimmer with pump, and heater.


No in all seriousness, if I was personally doing it, I think I'd have a HOB _refugium_, put a good amount of live rock in, skimmer somewhere, and stock it with 1 tiny tiny fish and some sessile and non-sessile inverts.

In terms of purely tank volume, going from 30L to 35L with an external filter won't really add a massive amount to stability. Definitely get an auto top up though :2thumb:


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

auto top up?


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Frostpaw said:


> auto top up?


Aqua Medic SP3000 Niveaumat | Aquarium Supplies


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

hmm is this not the same as keeping spare water on hand? it does nothing but fill it up?


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Frostpaw said:


> hmm is this not the same as keeping spare water on hand? it does nothing but fill it up?


Lol what?

Water evaporates... leaving salt behind, one of the fundementals of marine keeping. As water evaporates, the tank gets saltier...

So, in a tiny tank with a few bits of stuff running in it, even a little bit of evaporation will change the salinity, so you can use auto top up (with _RO_ water) to replenish this and stop salinity swings.


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

Graylord said:


> He doesn't have more experience than you ! He's been in the marine hobby for less than a year.


Still longer than me, :blush: But I do have someone who has come to check that I'm doing everything right and he says to leave the filter and uv on. Obviously I won't leave it for months on end without cleaning it. I do what he and 2 others have advised. One guy I know grows corals and the other has 4 tanks, so I know who I'm going to listen to,  



AshMashMash said:


> where's the rowa?


It's in the small built in sump at the back of the tank.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

JoPwerks said:


> Still longer than me


Despite what Gaylord says, my marine experience is not just "under a year", he just assumes this is my first tank, when in fact in this very thread I've mentioned past tank.


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

AshMashMash said:


> Despite what Gaylord says, my marine experience is not just "under a year", he just assumes this is my first tank, when in fact in this very thread I've mentioned past tank.


Well in all animal keeping everyone does things different. As long as the water parameters are good and everything is healthy then that is the main thing, whichever way you do it.

And obviously before you got your experience someone helped you (whether it was books or someone from your lfs) and you took their advice, as time goes on you learn what's best for your own tank as every tank is different.

I hope we haven't confused the OP and they should ask lots of opinions and then make a decision that is right for them. 
That's what I did anyway


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

JoPwerks said:


> As long as the water parameters are good and everything is healthy then that is the main thing, whichever way you do it.


100% agree



JoPwerks said:


> d ask lots of opinions and then make a decision that is right for them.


100% agree.


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