# Leo babys - ID help



## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

OK I'll try in here...


These are my first four leo hatchlings this year. they hatched over the past 2 days - last one early this morning.

I had a male Enigma het bell crossed with Mack Snow het tremper, Mack Snow, TUG Snow, Albino Tang het raptor, Bell Albino & SHTCT. 


Could anyone help to ID them for me please ?


In order of hatching...



1.
Hypo or Normal ?











2.
Hypo Enigma ?











3.
Enigma ?











4.
Mack or TUG Snow Enigma ?


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

1.
Hypo or Normal ?:2thumb:.Let it mature a little you'll soon know which one.











2.
Talbino Enigma.











3.
Enigma ?:2thumb:.











4.
Mack or TUG Snow Enigma ?.It's deffo enigma but wheather is TUG or mack will be very hard to find out.You'll have to breed it to a TUG snow and IF you get super snow offspring you know it's a mack snow.If you get NO super snow offspring it's a TUG snow.


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

Thanks 

I wasn't really trying to breed for specific offspring as such - more a 'pick 'n' mix' but I was hoping for an expert opinion/ID, other than guessing.

The Talbino Enigma must have been from my (supposed to be giant) Talbino het raptor.
This is the one, so far, that I'm most looking forward to seeing how the colours turn out. 

I have more eggs incubating so hopefully I'll have some more suprises in a few weeks.

: victory:


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## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

You`re gonna have to keep us updated with them little beauties as they grow - stunning, especially the albino enigma. As you say - it`s gonna be interesting to see how the colour and/or a pattern develop on it. Good luck with your remaining eggs, hope they all turn out as nice as them for you.


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

funky1 said:


> You`re gonna have to keep us updated with them little beauties as they grow - stunning, especially the albino enigma.


I'll definitely be posting more photos once they are grown on a bit & some more of the colour & pattern start to come out.



> As you say - it`s gonna be interesting to see how the colour and/or a pattern develop on it.


The colour already looks really bright on all of them - the photos don't show the colours as bright, compared to seeing them in person.



> Good luck with your remaining eggs, hope they all turn out as nice as them for you.


 
Thanks I hope so too :2thumb:


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

Updated photos.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Want to sell me the snow enigma? What a stunner!!!!

:2thumb:

Edit: On a serious note, looks like you are going to have some cracking Leos there.


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## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

:shock: can`t believe the Albino Enigma has changed so much, after what, one shed??? 
Seeing `em just makes the pain and agony of waiting all the more agonising! Genuinely think they`re very nice.


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

MrMike said:


> Want to sell me the snow enigma? What a stunner!!!!
> 
> :2thumb:


Thanks, I think so too, but I would say that 

I can see more 'yellow' coming through along the flanks & some on the back legs. The eyes are jet black atm too.




> Edit: On a serious note, looks like you are going to have some cracking Leos there.


I hope so - I have more eggs that I'm waiting on to hatch. I think they should be ready pretty soon, fingers crossed !


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

funky1 said:


> :shock: can`t believe the Albino Enigma has changed so much, after what, one shed???


I know !
I'm loving the pink/lavender-ish colour !
I've noticed these blotches are also surrounded by bright yellow - the base colour yellow seems to be fading out. The white has got brighter too - if that's possible ?




> Seeing `em just makes the pain and agony of waiting all the more agonising! Genuinely think they`re very nice.


Thanks for the comments, I appreciate it.

I'll put more photos up once the other eggs (hopefully) hatch : victory:


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> Thanks, I think so too, but I would say that
> 
> I can see more 'yellow' coming through along the flanks & some on the back legs. The eyes are jet black atm too.


Oh no, yellow!!! You shouldn't have to put up with that. Tell you what, i'll take him/her off your hands:whistling2:



Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> I hope so - I have more eggs that I'm waiting on to hatch. I think they should be ready pretty soon, fingers crossed !


Looking forward to seeing them!!


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

Second update - 2 weeks since the last photos were taken.


lots of black disappearing...











not much change(?)











black is disappearing...











more black speckling now...











:2thumb:


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

I'd go with.

Hypo.Could mature into super.










Talbino hypo enigma.Could mature into super.










Hypo enigma.Could mature into super.










Snow enigma.









Love leo's :2thumb:.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

The snow enigma is getting better and better. All of them will be corkers, but the snow stands out to me.


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

gazz said:


> I'd go with.
> 
> Hypo.Could mature into super.


cool - I was hoping it would be hypo 
...SH is even better!




> Talbino *hypo* *enigma*.Could mature into super.


I got it half right (originally) 
Still liking the colours on this one alot!




> *Hypo* enigma.Could mature into super.


Even better -the colour is getting brighter & brighter




> Snow enigma.


This one is our favourite 







MrMike said:


> The snow enigma is getting better and better. All of them will be corkers, but the snow stands out to me.


Thanks! The eyes are jet black ATM & although a little nervous, it loves to explore its surroundings.




Would anyone have any ideas or what would your opinion be, on what these could be crossed with to produce something stunning ?


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## Jon2ooo8 (Sep 6, 2008)

the snow enigma is just sensational :2thumb:


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> Would anyone have any ideas or what would your opinion be, on what these could be crossed with to produce something stunning ?


Personally (as we are doing) I would cross the mack snow enigma with a Bell albino to start a supersnow bell enigma project.
The hypo enigma could be used to start a Sunglow enigma project as well. Boh of these your looking at 2 seasons minimum though.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

MrMike said:


> Personally (as we are doing) I would cross the mack snow enigma.


He dosen't know if the snow enigma is a Mack snow enigma or a TUG snow enigma.He should breed the snow enigma baby to a known TUG snow first to see if he gets any super snows.If he get no super snow then it's a TUG snow enigma and if he get super snow then it's a Mack snow enigma.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

gazz said:


> He dosen't know if the snow enigma is a Mack snow enigma or a TUG snow enigma.He should breed the snow enigma baby to a known TUG snow first to see if he gets any super snows.If he get no super snow then it's a TUG snow enigma and if he get super snow then it's a Mack snow enigma.


Very true, I forgot about that fact. I would do the above so you know exactly what you have first. A TUG snow Bell enigma would be something special though


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

MrMike said:


> Personally (as we are doing) I would cross the mack snow enigma with a Bell albino to start a supersnow bell enigma project.
> The hypo enigma could be used to start a Sunglow enigma project as well. Boh of these your looking at 2 seasons minimum though.


Hmm - how about if I were to cross my ♂ snow to my ♀ bell - then if I were lucky enough to produce a snow, *in the hope it was het bell, then I would be able to produce super snow bells ?

Is that right ?

*I say "in the hope..." as, I assume I could produce snows that wouldn't carry the bell gene & snows that would (possibly in same clutch) obviously it would be impossible to tell.





gazz said:


> He dosen't know if the snow enigma is a Mack snow enigma or a TUG snow enigma.He should breed the snow enigma baby to a known TUG snow first to see if he gets any super snows.If he get no super snow then it's a TUG snow enigma and if he get super snow then it's a Mack snow enigma.


 
If the snow enigma turns out male then I can cross it to my TUG & Mack snow females & see what they produce.


The crosses I thought about, depending on the sex of the babies are:

1. Hypo albino enigma x Sunglow &/or Albino het RAPTOR 

2. Snow enigma x Snow

3. Hypo enigma x SHTCT


It's also possible, from the Leos I have, for me to produce a RAPTOR. So what about 

1. Snow enigma x Raptor ?

Also...

2. Bell enigma x Blizzard ?

What would the above two crosses look like ?


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> 1. Snow enigma x Raptor ?
> 
> Also...
> 
> ...


If MACK snow enigma.

(1C)Snow enigma X Talbino eclipse patternless striped = .

25%Normal HET Talbino,Eclipse.
25%Snow HET Talbino,Eclipse.
25%(1C)Enigma HET Talbino,Eclipse.
25%(1C)Snow enigma HET Talbino,Eclipse.

All offspring poly'HET Jungle,Striped,Reverse striped,Patternless reverse striped,Tangerine.
----
(1C)Snow enigma X Talbino eclipse patternless striped = .

50%(1C)Enigma HET Talbino,Eclipse.
50%(1C)Snow enigma HET Talbino,Eclipse.

All offspring poly'HET Jungle,Striped,Reverse striped,Patternless reverse striped,Tangerine.
----
----
If TUG snow enigma it would be (1 COPY).

(1CS,1CE)Snow enigma X Talbino eclipse patternless striped = .

25%Normal HET Talbino,Eclipse.
25%(1C)Snow HET Talbino,Eclipse.
25%(1C)Enigma HET Talbino,Eclipse.
25%(1CS,1CE)Snow enigma HET Talbino,Eclipse.

All offspring poly'HET Jungle,Striped,Reverse striped,Patternless reverse striped,Tangerine.
----
(1CS,1CE)Snow enigma X Talbino eclipse patternless striped = .

50%(1C)Enigma HET Talbino,Eclipse.
50%(1CS,1CE)Snow enigma HET Talbino,Eclipse.

All offspring poly'HET Jungle,Striped,Reverse striped,Patternless reverse striped,Tangerine.
----
----
(1C)Balbino enigma X Blizzard = .

50%Normal HET Balbino,Blizzard.
50%(1C)Enigma HET Balbino,Blizzard.
----
(2C)Balbino enigma X Blizzard = .

100%(1C)Enigma HET Balbino,Blizzard.


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

gazz said:


> If MACK snow enigma.
> 
> (1C)Snow enigma X Talbino eclipse patternless striped = .
> 
> ...


Assuming the above (1c) is more likely; Snow HET Talbino, Eclipse x Snow Enigma HET Talbino, Eclipse = Some kind of* Super-Snow-Enigma-RAPTOR* ?

Or just a possibility of *Super-Snow-Enigma-Eclipse with jungle/stripe pattern *? 





> (1C)Balbino enigma X Blizzard = .
> 
> 50%Normal HET Balbino,Blizzard.
> 50%(1C)Enigma HET Balbino,Blizzard.
> ...


Crossing the above _could_ produce a *Blazing Blizzard Enigma*, but with the Balbino gene instead. So would the eyes show a different colour compared to the 'Talbino' gene ?
How would the Enigma gene change the appearance of a Blazing Blizzard (whether 'Talbino' or 'Balbino')


& from the *Super-Snow-Enigma-RAPTOR* if crossed to *Blazing Blizzard Enigma* (w/ Balbino) would that produce a *Diablo Blanco-Enigma-Snow* with some kind of *Talbino+Balbino* influence also ?

Would the above be a nova or super nova ?


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> Assuming the above (1c) is more likely; Snow HET Talbino, Eclipse x Snow Enigma HET Talbino, Eclipse = Some kind of* Super-Snow-Enigma-RAPTOR* ?
> 
> Or just a possibility of *Super-Snow-Enigma-Eclipse with jungle/stripe pattern *?.


Snow HET Talbino,Eclipse X (1C)Snow enigma HET Talbino,Eclipse = .

Normal Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
Eclipse normal Poss-HET Talbino.
Talbino normal Poss-HET Eclipse.
Talbino eclipse normal.
Jungle Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
Eclipse jungle Poss-HET Talbino.
Talbino jungle Poss-HET Eclipse.
Talbino eclipse jungle.
Striped Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
Eclipse striped Poss-HET Talbino.
Talbino striped Poss-HET Eclipse.
Talbino eclipse striped.
Reverse striped Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
Eclipse reverse striped Poss-HET Talbino.
Talbino reverse striped Poss-HET Eclipse.
Talbino eclipse reverse striped.
Patternless reverse striped Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
Eclipse patternless reverse striped Poss-HET Talbino.
Talbino patternless reverse striped Poss-HET Eclipse.
Talbino eclipse patternless reverse striped.
(1C)Enigma Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
(1C)Eclipse enigma Poss-HET Talbino.
(1C)Talbino enigma Poss-HET Eclipse.
(1C)Talbino eclipse enigma.
(1C)Enigma jungle Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
(1C)Eclipse enigma jungle Poss-HET Talbino.
(1C)Talbino enigma jungle Poss-HET Eclipse.
(1C)Talbino eclipse enigma jungle.
(1C)Enigma striped Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
(1C)Eclipse enigma striped Poss-HET Talbino.
(1C)Talbino enigma striped Poss-HET Eclipse.
(1C)Talbino eclipse enigma striped.
(1C)Enigma reverse striped Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
(1C)Eclipse enigma reverse striped Poss-HET Talbino.
(1C)Talbino enigma reverse striped Poss-HET Eclipse.
(1C)Talbino eclipse enigma reverse striped.
(1C)Enigma patternless reverse striped Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
(1C)Eclipse enigma patternless reverse striped Poss-HET Talbino.
(1C)Talbino enigma patternless reverse striped Poss-HET Eclipse.
(1C)Talbino eclipse enigma patternless reverse striped.
(1C)Snow enigma Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
(1C)Eclipse snow enigma Poss-HET Talbino.
(1C)Talbino snow enigma Poss-HET Eclipse.
(1C)Talbino eclipse snow enigma.
(1C)Snow enigma jungle Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
(1C)Eclipse snow enigma jungle Poss-HET Talbino.
(1C)Talbino snow enigma jungle Poss-HET Eclipse.
(1C)Talbino eclipse snow enigma jungle.
(1C)Snow enigma striped Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
(1C)Eclipse snow enigma striped Poss-HET Talbino.
(1C)Talbino snow enigma striped Poss-HET Eclipse.
(1C)Talbino eclipse snow enigma striped.
(1C)Snow enigma reverse striped Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
(1C)Eclipse snow enigma reverse striped Poss-HET Talbino.
(1C)Talbino snow enigma reverse striped Poss-HET Eclipse.
(1C)Talbino eclipse snow enigma reverse striped.
(1C)Snow enigma patternless reverse striped Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
(1C)Eclipse snow enigma patternless reverse striped Poss-HET Talbino.
(1C)Talbino snow enigma patternless reverse striped Poss-HET Eclipse.
(1C)Talbino eclipse snow enigma patternless reverse striped.
Snow Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
Eclipse snow Poss-HET Talbino.
Talbino snow Poss-HET Eclipse.
Talbino eclipse snow.
Snow Jungle Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
Eclipse snow jungle Poss-HET Talbino.
Talbino snow jungle Poss-HET Eclipse.
Talbino eclipse snow jungle.
Snow striped Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
Eclipse snow striped Poss-HET Talbino.
Talbino snow striped Poss-HET Eclipse.
Talbino eclipse snow striped.
Snow reverse striped Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
Eclipse snow reverse striped Poss-HET Talbino.
Talbino snow reverse striped Poss-HET Eclipse.
Talbino eclipse snow reverse striped.
Snow patternless reverse striped Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
Eclipse snow patternless reverse striped Poss-HET Talbino.
Talbino snow patternless reverse striped Poss-HET Eclipse.
Talbino eclipse snow patternless reverse striped.
Super snow Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
Eclipse super snow Poss-HET Talbino.
Talbino super snow Poss-HET Eclipse.
Talbino eclipse super snow.
(1C)Super snow enigma Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
(1C)Eclipse super snow enigma Poss-HET Talbino.
(1C)Talbino super snow enigma Poss-HET Eclipse.
(1C)Talbino eclipse super snow enigma.




Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> Crossing the above _could_ produce a *Blazing Blizzard Enigma*, but with the Balbino gene instead. So would the eyes show a different colour compared to the 'Talbino' gene ?
> How would the Enigma gene change the appearance of a Blazing Blizzard (whether 'Talbino' or 'Balbino')


(1C)Enigma HET Balbino,Blizzard X Normal HET Balbino,Blizzard = .

Normal Poss-HET Balbino,Blizzard.
Balbino normal Poss-HET Blizzard.
Blizzard Poss-HET Balbino.
Balbino Blizzard.
(1C)Enigma Poss-HET Balbino,Blizzard.
(1C)Balbino enigma Poss-HET Blizzard.
(1C)Blizzard enigma Poss-HET Balbino.
(1C)Balbino Blizzard enigma.

Blizzard enigma and Balbino blizzard enigma look like blizzard and Balbino blizzard but have Enigma and Balbino enigma eyes.False eclipse expressed in blizzards can make them hard to ID somtimes.



Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> from the *Super-Snow-Enigma-RAPTOR* if crossed to *Blazing Blizzard Enigma* (w/ Balbino) would that produce a *Diablo Blanco-Enigma-Snow* with some kind of *Talbino+Balbino* influence also ?
> 
> Would the above be a nova or super nova ?


This breeding is not advisable it would get very confusing crossing a Talbino to a Balbino.

(1C)Talbino eclipse super snow enigma X (1C)Balbino blizzard enigma = .

Snow HET Talbino,Balbino,Eclipse,Blizzard.
(1C)Snow enigma HET Talbino,Balbino,Eclipse,Blizzard.
(2C)Snow enigma HET Talbino,Balbino,Eclipse,Blizzard.


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

gazz said:


> Snow HET Talbino,Eclipse X (1C)Snow enigma HET Talbino,Eclipse = .
> 
> Normal Poss-HET Talbino,Eclipse.
> Eclipse normal Poss-HET Talbino.
> ...


 
:gasp: WOW! 

Thanks Gazz, so just a 'few' possibile outcomes then! :whistling2:

Looking through the list above, it seems about 50% will be Albino?
Some nice results though - especially the ones in bold.




gazz said:


> (1C)Enigma HET Balbino,Blizzard X Normal HET Balbino,Blizzard = .
> 
> Normal Poss-HET Balbino,Blizzard.
> Balbino normal Poss-HET Blizzard.
> ...


So unless 100% on the parents, the offspring would not visually express the enigma gene, to be successfully ID'd ? 
(as either *B-E* or *B*-*B*-*E*) But you _could_ tell from the eyes though ?





gazz said:


> This breeding is not advisable it would get very confusing crossing a Talbino to a Balbino.
> 
> (1C)Talbino eclipse super snow enigma X (1C)Balbino blizzard enigma = .
> 
> ...


I think the above should have had the RAPTOR genes added too...



> *Super-Snow-Enigma-RAPTOR* if crossed to *Blazing Blizzard Enigma* (w/ Balbino)


So if these (above) _were_ to be crossed I could then produce a SUPER NOVA but with Balbino Blizzard (& eclipse?) also included ?


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> So unless 100% on the parents, the offspring would not visually express the enigma gene, to be successfully ID'd ? (as either *B-E* or *B*-*B*-*E*) But you _could_ tell from the eyes though ?


.

Blizzard and Blizzard enigma body looks the same you ID them apart by the eyes.
Balbino blizzard and Balbino blizzard enigma body looks the same you ID them apart by the eyes.

But this can be made harder by false eclipse that's found in blizzard. 



Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> I think the above should have had the RAPTOR genes added too...


A Talbino eclipse super snow IS A super snow enigma RAPTOR.
The super snow influance doesn't let ANY RAPTOR in other than a white washed nose.They would look just like a Super RAPTOR enigma would just look like a super snow enigma with a white washed nose.



Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> So if these (above) _were_ to be crossed I could then produce a SUPER NOVA but with Balbino Blizzard (& eclipse?) also included ?


Not by the first breeding.You could if you bred the offspring together.I would advise agenst it as it will get very confusing.You'll be crossing Talbino with Balbino.To be truthfull a making more Balbino blizzard enigma's would be more of a goal than a Balbino eclipse super snow enigma-aka-(super nova).




Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> SUPER NOVA but with Balbino Blizzard (& ECLIPSE ?) also included ?


A super nova already has ECLIPSE in it as a RAPTOR is a Talbino eclipse patternless reverse striped.A super nova already carrys these traits.Not that you can see any of this as super snow is dominant over it.They'll look like Balbino super snow enigma with a white washed nose.


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

gazz said:


> Blizzard and Blizzard enigma body looks the same you ID them apart by the eyes.
> Balbino blizzard and Balbino blizzard enigma body looks the same you ID them apart by the eyes.
> 
> But this can be made harder by false eclipse that's found in blizzard.


OK so where does the Eclipse gene come from? - sorry to sound dumb, but I thought it came from RAPTORs - but instead of a RED or snake eye(s) - they are black ?

What is the difference between false Eclipse & 'true' Eclipse in the eyes ?
How do you tell them apart ?




gazz said:


> A Talbino eclipse super snow IS A super snow enigma RAPTOR.
> The super snow influance doesn't let ANY RAPTOR in other than a white washed nose.They would look just like a Super RAPTOR enigma would just look like a super snow enigma with a white washed nose.


So it would be pointless adding the RAPTOR genes as it would basically result in a white washed nose (no point as a phenotype). 
Unless crossing back to a RAPTOR (or something carrying the RAPTOR genes) as you would then be able to produce APTORs &/or RAPTORs. (?)




gazz said:


> Not by the first breeding.You could if you bred the offspring together.I would advise agenst it as it will get very confusing.You'll be crossing Talbino with Balbino.To be truthfull a making more Balbino blizzard enigma's would be more of a goal than a Balbino eclipse super snow enigma-aka-(super nova).
> 
> A super nova already has ECLIPSE in it as a RAPTOR is a Talbino eclipse patternless reverse striped.A super nova already carrys these traits.Not that you can see any of this as super snow is dominant over it.They'll look like Balbino super snow enigma with a white washed nose.


Am I right in saying, as above, it's pointless, as all the RAPTOR genes would do is produce a white washed nose (?)

Why & how does 'Snow' mask the RAPTOR genes ?

Thanks


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> OK so where does the Eclipse gene come from? - sorry to sound dumb, but I thought it came from RAPTORs - but instead of a RED or snake eye(s) - they are black ?
> 
> What is the difference between false Eclipse & 'true' Eclipse in the eyes ?
> How do you tell them apart ?.


False eclipse is a RANDOM eye trait most often seen in the morphs blizzard and snows.(I AM NOT REFERING TO SUPER SNOW SOLID EYE).It's not understud how is works genetically other than it's unpredictable in it's breeding outcomes.

Eclipse that came from Tremper is a is a RECESSIVE eye trait.We now and can predict the breeding outcomes.

The only visual differance you have is Eclipse usually express a white washed nose. 




Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> So it would be pointless adding the RAPTOR genes as it would basically result in a white washed nose (no point as a phenotype).Unless crossing back to a RAPTOR (or something carrying the RAPTOR genes) as you would then be able to produce APTORs &/or RAPTORs (?).


I wouldn't go as far as pointless as it dose offer you genetic traits.You may not see them but they are there.




Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> Am I right in saying, as above, it's pointless, as all the RAPTOR genes would do is produce a white washed nose (?).


I'd say the same as bove.Balbino blizzard type would be the way to go.There are NON in the UK and cost a packet in the USA.



Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> Why & how does 'SUPER SNOW' mask the RAPTOR genes ?


Not sure why it just does.Super snow has solid eye so you can't see the eclipse trait in any percent.Super snow patterning is dominant over standed banding ever patternless reverse striped and this is the main trait that makes a RAPTOR.


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

Update number 3.

Another 2 weeks has passed since the last photos. I also took eyes shots, of each, this time too.


1. The Normal or Hypo or Super Hypo...











2. Talbino Hypo Enigma...











3. Hypo or Super Hypo Enigma...











4. Snow Enigma...




















:2thumb:


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

:mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble:

The T_albino Enigma and Snow Enigma are really coming on nicely. Although they told me in a letter (yes we are pen pals) they want to move into my house:whistling2:


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

MrMike said:


> :mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble:
> 
> The T_albino Enigma and Snow Enigma are really coming on nicely. Although they told me in a letter (yes we are pen pals) they want to move into my house:whistling2:


 
Surely that means they must be worth something then 
I never knew they could write!
I'll be keeping an even coser eye on these ones fr now on 

My favourite atm is still the Talbino (is it not also hypo?) enigma. I like the bright borders around the pink/lavender blotches & the white tail. It also has lovely red-ish/brown eyes too!

They're all getting bolder & nearly always out day & evening, exploring & wandering about.


I have some more eggs due to hatch very soon & am starting to get impatient lol - shouldn't be much longer though....I hope!

There's a single egg I've been waiting to hatch for what seems like months :gasp: I think it's been 8 weeks this weekend, either it's no good or I've got my dates wrong?
Egg looks fine, a bit yellowy BUT that's from the eco-earth I used as substrate. I've used this before for corn snake eggs & it turns the eggs a yellowy kind of colour & is supposed to prevent bacteria growth due to the tannins. So thought I'd try it out. Maybe I'll stick to vermiculite...


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

I did say hypo.BUT it looks it could turn Hi-yellow.
So i'd say this is a wait and see leo. 









At preasant Talbino Hypo enigma .
Could turn super if the body blotch's
whipe out. 










At preasant Hypo enigma if all
spot go then super. 










False partial eclipse snow Enigma.


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

gazz said:


> I did say hypo.BUT it looks it could turn Hi-yellow.
> So i'd say this is a wait and see leo.


OK that's cool though either way, but I'd prefer Hypo 




> At preasant Talbino Hypo enigma .
> Could turn super if the *body blotch's*
> whipe out.


Great!
I assume you mean the pink/lavender blotches I mentioned....Even though I think they look nice, if they need to disappear for it to be a 'Super' then fair enough 




> At preasant Hypo enigma if all
> spot go then super.


I'd be happy enough with Hypo but again 'Super' would be better!




> *False partial eclipse* snow Enigma.


Is that what you explained to me about before?
So would that be similar to snake eye(s) in RAPTORs?


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> I assume you mean the pink/lavender blotches I mentioned....Even though I think they look nice, if they need to disappear for it to be a 'Super' then fair enough .


Yes the pink/lavender blotchs:2thumb:.




Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> So would that be similar to snake eye(s) in RAPTORs?


Personally i don't like the term snake eye.But i also wouldn't use the term snake eye on any other eye trait other than TRUE Eclipse that came from Tremper.To tag any leo with half iris black out as just snake eye can lead to confusion.Coz people assume it's all the same morph and it's clearly not.The iris black out on your false eclipse snow enigma is nothing to do with eclipse from Tremper.As eclipse is a recessive eye trait in which you CAN predict results and outcomes.False eclipse is a random unpredictible eye trait that you CAN'T predict results and outcomes.False eclipse is mainly linked to blizzard and snow in which this trait seems to get passed onto the next generations the esayist.So breeding your false eclipse snow enigma to either a blizzard or snow.The future offspring you could expect to see this eye trait again would be on the blizzard and snow offspring.False eclipse has been seen on other morphs but it seem few and far between.

It up to you but i'd rather say false eclipse or false snake eye.Rather than JUST snake eye.


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## kentish (Oct 8, 2007)

OMG your Snow Enigma is BEAUTIFUL!!

I am so jealous... keep me in the loop if you move him on!!!!


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

gazz said:


> Yes the pink/lavender blotchs:2thumb:.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I understand exactly what you mean, I wouldn't want to call *blue* *-* *purple*.
Thanks gazz : victory:





kentish said:


> OMG your Snow Enigma is BEAUTIFUL!!
> 
> I am so jealous... keep me in the loop if you move him on!!!!


 
I think MrMike has hinted at this too, but sure, will do lol


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> I think MrMike has hinted at this too, but sure, will do lol


:whistling2:


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

I thought I'd put another update on here of the 4 baby Leopard Geckos' weights... they're all pretty close to each other & seem to be eating really well!
I'll put them in the same order as in my previous posts.


1. The poss Hypo or Hi-Yellow 











2. The Talbino Hypo Enigma











3. The Hypo or poss Super Hypo Enigma.











4. The Snow Enigma (Mack or TUG...?)












# 1. looks the biggest although doesn't weigh the most - which is odd?!

# 2. I still like the colours of this one although they are starting to change again. It will be interesting to see the end result.

#3. Seems to be the most friendly/tolerent out of all of them. It has a white line/stripe down its spine/back & looks like it has a long body?

#4. Is nearly always out & wandering. It looks much nicer in the photo! Can't wait to find out the sex :2thumb:

I'm hoping for: 

#1, #3, #4 = ♂

#2 = ♀


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## mad4frogs (Aug 8, 2006)

> #4. Is nearly always out & wandering....
> 
> 
> > It looks much nicer in the photo!
> ...


lol ^ fail ... You meant to say " It looks much nicer *than* in the photo"

They are real cuties though :flrt:


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## meatgecko (Aug 25, 2007)

Great thread really enjoyed reading it. you have some nice leos there and the pic's you included were good


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

meatgecko said:


> Great thread really enjoyed reading it. you have some nice leos there and the pic's you included were good


 
Cool! Glad you enjoyed the read 

Shouldn't be long now before the rest of the eggs hatch out....I hope:whip: Lost a few eggs, but we currently have *26 eggs cooking ATM (*I think?)


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## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

They`re coming on great pal - always nice to see little ones as they progress, especially when they come on really well. I thought though, where you asked asked whether Tug or Mack, that you you`d pointed out the tongue in case it was a way to tell the difference or something, as if a Tug should have a pink, and a Mack a red one or someat!


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

funky1 said:


> where you asked asked whether Tug or Mack, that you you`d pointed out the tongue in case it was a way to tell the difference or something, as if a Tug should have a pink, and a Mack a red one or someat!


I think he was just pointing out that on it's nose area was a tongue.Just to save load of replys saying your leo has a groth or somthing'etc.


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

funky1 said:


> They`re coming on great pal - always nice to see little ones as they progress, especially when they come on really well. I thought though, where you asked asked whether Tug or Mack, that you you`d pointed out the tongue in case it was a way to tell the difference or something, as if a Tug should have a pink, and a Mack a red one or someat!





gazz said:


> I think he was just pointing out that on it's nose area was a tongue.Just to save load of replys saying your leo has a groth or somthing'etc.


:notworthy: Yep! Spot on lol

I thought I'd make it clear so people didn't post assuming they didn't realize straight away that it was indeed - its tongue 

I thought they would actually weigh a little more by now - more than 6g anyway!
I'm not too worried though as they eat like pigs & seem healthy enough in themselves. 

Thanks for the comments. I think it's amazing just how much the colours & patterns change so much in such a short space of time :gasp: But they are coming on nicely & I'm sure they will make lovely adults :mf_dribble:


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## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

Wow they are stunning. Unfortunately it looks like the snow enigma is going a bit yellowy. Still beautiful though. My favourite has to be the tremper enigma though! Keep the updates coming!


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

4. The Snow Enigma (Mack or TUG...?) 









You can't visually tell a Mack snow from a TUG snow the only way to know is breed it to a proven TUG snow if you get NO! super snow offspring it's TUG snow enigma.If you DO get super snow offspring then it's a Mack snow enigma.


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

repkid said:


> Wow they are stunning. Unfortunately it looks like the snow enigma is going a bit yellowy. Still beautiful though. My favourite has to be the tremper enigma though! Keep the updates coming!


Yeah it's my favourite too, but I like the lavender blotches (look better than in the photo) but gazz said if I wanted it to turn out Super Hypo, then these would have to go lol...I would prefer it to be 'SH' but either way I'm not too fussed TBH 




gazz said:


> 4. The Snow Enigma (Mack or TUG...?)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well if it turns out male I can cross it back to my female TUG, if not then I can cross it to my Mack male 

I thought that Mack x TUG = something like 25% chance of Super Snow offspring? (or something like that?)


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> Well if it turns out male I can cross it back to my female TUG, if not then I can cross it to my Mack male
> 
> I thought that Mack x TUG = something like 25% chance of Super Snow offspring? (or something like that?)


You only need to breed to a TUG snow if you only get Normal and Enigma and Snow and snow enigma offspring then your baby snow enigma is a TUG Snow enigma.However if you get Normal and Enigma and Snow and Snow enigma and super snow and Super snow enigma offspring then you baby snow enigma is a Mack snow enigma.Then the offspring will be of a TUG snow X Mack snow breeding.Such a breeding does result in super snow offspring.

No matter what sex it turn out to be there's no point breeding him to a Mack snow first as you will get false results.As you won't know wheather your super snow offspring come from a TUG snow X Mack snow breeding or a Mack snow X Mack snow breeding.You'll be non the wiser wheather your snow enigma is TUG or Mack.


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

gazz said:


> You only need to breed to a TUG snow if you only get Normal and Enigma and Snow and snow enigma offspring then your baby snow enigma is a TUG Snow enigma.However if you get Normal and Enigma and Snow and Snow enigma and super snow and Super snow enigma offspring then you baby snow enigma is a Mack snow enigma.Then the offspring will be of a TUG snow X Mack snow breeding.Such a breeding does result in super snow offspring.
> 
> No matter what sex it turn out to be there's no point breeding him to a Mack snow first as you will get false results.As you won't know wheather your super snow offspring come from a TUG snow X Mack snow breeding or a Mack snow X Mack snow breeding.You'll be non the wiser wheather your snow enigma is TUG or Mack.


 
Thanks again gazz 

But there is a chance that I could breed my snow enigma to a TUG but never actually get super snows or super snow enigmas (which if I've read your post correctly, would mean it's Mack) so ntil I got either of those I could be breeding for the next 10 years for the hope that a SS or SSE pops out the egg to confirm it as TUG enigma?
The above would also be the same if it were Mack enigma too, but again I could be breeding for the next 10 years to see if an SS or SSE is produced (although this wouldn't happen) but I wouldn't know that lol

Have I got that all right?

If so looks like I have to have a lot of luck with it not only being a TUG enigma but to then produce SS &/or SSE too


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> Thanks again gazz
> 
> But there is a chance that I could breed my snow enigma to a TUG but never actually get super snows or super snow enigmas (which if I've read your post correctly, would mean it's Mack) so ntil I got either of those I could be breeding for the next 10 years for the hope that a SS or SSE pops out the egg to confirm it as TUG enigma?
> The above would also be the same if it were Mack enigma too, but again I could be breeding for the next 10 years to see if an SS or SSE is produced (although this wouldn't happen) but I wouldn't know that lol
> ...


[1C]TUG snow X [1C]TUG snow = .

Normal.
[1C]TUG snow.
[2C]TUG snow.
----
[1C]TUG snow X [2C]TUG snow = .

[1C]TUG snow.
[2C]TUG snow.
----
[2C]TUG snow X [2C]TUG snow = .

[2C]TUG snow.
----
----
Mack snow X Mack Snow = .

Normal.
Mack snow.
Super snow.
----
----
TUG snow X Mack snow = .

Normal.
Snow.
Super snow.

No one really known for fact the percentage of super snows from this breeding.You'd expect it to be less and most presume.But fact is no one really knowns. 

I doutb you'll be breeding 10 years before you'll get a super snow.If your snow enigma is a Mack snow enigma and is bred to a TUG snow.I'd say you'll deffo know by two seasons.


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

gazz said:


> [1C]TUG snow X [1C]TUG snow = .
> 
> Normal.
> [1C]TUG snow.
> ...


lol ok so I did exagerate slightly but you get what I mean 
I imagined sitting there each year saying "nope - not this year;maybe next!" :bash:


If I were to sell the Snow Enigma on to someone - would me not knowing whether it's TUG or MACK, put people off do you think?
I mean surely not, if you can still produce SS?
Unless they specifically wanted TUG to add to a TUG 'only' group I suppose...


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> lol ok so I did exagerate slightly but you get what I mean
> I imagined sitting there each year saying "nope - not this year;maybe next!" :bash:
> 
> 
> ...


I'll quite happily test the little one out for you :whistling2:


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

MrMike said:


> I'll quite happily test the little one out for you :whistling2:


 
:lol2:

Dont worry - you'll be the first to know :2thumb:


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

This is the 2nd update on weights & colour/pattern changing. Well I did weigh them all last week, but I might put up photos weekly now, instead of every 2 weeks...


#1. Is called Screamer, as this was the first thing he did when transfering him into his 'new home'.

+2.7g grams since last week.











#2. is called Mango, as we couldn't think of a name to suit him so thought he looked like a mango. Although we forget & call him melon.

+3g since last week.











#3. is called Smiler, as he had a pattern on his back when he hatched, in the shape of a smiley face.

+2.5g since last week.











#4. is called Dale, as he looks like a dalmation dog.

+ 1.2g since last week.


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## mad4frogs (Aug 8, 2006)

A new addition to add to the thread - hatched out yesterday!...

Bumble! :flrt:


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Mango is stunning!! Maybe be a joint favourite there


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## mad4frogs (Aug 8, 2006)

#*1 'Screamer'* *&* #*3 'Smiler' up for sale now* 


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizard-classifieds/300013-hypo-enigma-leopard-gecko-sale.html


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## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

Got to say mate -I thought Mango was a looker on hatching, but she/he has just blossomed into a magnificent Enigma Albino Tang - and it`s developing into an absolute belter!


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

funky1 said:


> Got to say mate -I thought Mango was a looker on hatching, but she/he has just blossomed into a magnificent Enigma Albino Tang - and it`s developing into an absolute belter!


 
Thanks - Mango is my favourite! I liked the lavender blotches at first, but now they're fading, the orange colour is coming through. It's so bright 
OH prefers Dale & has done from the start, she named him & now we both chose our favourites, we're not planning on selling them.

We can't believe how much change there is from hatchling to where they are at now in terms of growth - they're not even anywhere near adult yet & the colours/patterns are amazing!

We still have a load of eggs we're waiting on to hatch, had a few duds along the way, but it's so frustrating waiting for them to hatch out!

We should have more hatchlings next weekend... more surprises again & nothing specific as such.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> Thanks - Mango is my favourite! I liked the lavender blotches at first, but now they're fading, the orange colour is coming through. It's so bright
> OH prefers Dale & has done from the start, she named him & now we both chose our favourites, we're not planning on selling them.
> 
> We can't believe how much change there is from hatchling to where they are at now in terms of growth - they're not even anywhere near adult yet & the colours/patterns are amazing!
> ...


Good choices as keepers mate :2thumb:


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## mad4frogs (Aug 8, 2006)

In these photos you can see the colour of 'Mango' is really starting to get brighter by the week!
'Dale' has more yellow developing on his flanks & I would guess as he grows, this will spread over his back, etc...

Mango...

+1.9g since last week.











Dale...

+1.7g since last week.











& our new addition to the thread is Noodle, a *Patternless Reverse Stripe Eclipse x RAPTOR* 

It didn't come out very bright/colourful in the photo?
...but he/she is a great looking baby :2thumb:

currently weighs 9g


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Another gorgeous baby mate, considering it is all pot luck you seem to be coming out on top


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

MrMike said:


> Another gorgeous baby mate, considering it is all pot luck you seem to be coming out on top


 
i'll second that!! i'm rather jealous actually, i've had a normal and albino from mack snow enigma x reverse stripe albino, and two mack snows from sunglow x mack snow enigma.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

mad4frogs said:


> Our new addition to the thread is Noodle, a *Patternless Reverse Stripe Eclipse x RAPTOR*
> 
> It didn't come out very bright/colourful in the photo?
> ...but he/she is a great looking baby :2thumb:
> ...


Nice Eclipse reverse striped:2thumb:.He/She 'MAY' mature into a Eclipse patternless reverse striped.Only time will tell.


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## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

I took a few photos of 'Mango' my favourite baby. Last week he weighed 16.6g & I'll be weighing him again tomorrow. He seems to be putting weight on fast & growing well too 
The colour is still getting brighter & I tried to show just how bright he is in photos #2, #3, #4 & #5, by slightly enhancing the colours so they look like they 'really' do. Only problem is that if my monitor settings are different to anyone elses, which they probably are... then maybe it will look saturated with colour or maybe not exactly how it looks on my monitor at all. Anyway here are the photos...

This first photo I tried to get a side shot as there's a nice split in colour between the bright yellow/orange & the white. You can also see the bright orange cirlces on his back.











In the second photo I managed to get all the body in shot showing the head markings, body & down to the tail. It shows the bright colours & patterns really well. The 'blue' area on the head, where the eyes are, looks more like a minty/blue colour...really nice 











This head shot shows the 'minty/blue' colour on the head better & the markings too. There's also a nice orange 'band' across the nose which stands out, as well as a little white area on the tip of the nose.











Here's a similar shot from a different angle.











This next photo may be proof that 'Mango' is a male...? 











This photo is a closer shot of the body showing the bright orange circles or rings. I did notice what looked like a 'green-ish' tinge to the inner circle (inside the orange). This 'green-ish' tinge surrounds the white (originally lavender/pink) blotch.
white blotch...surrounded by green-ish tinge...with orange circle/ring around that.
It's like an olive green but possibly a trick of the light?
Unfortunately none of the photos are able to show it, sounds like a cop-out I know!











Lastly to end with the tail which has these 'water mark' patches. The tail almost looks mouldy. These patches of 'colour' are grey-ish but not grey...if that makes sense?
It's hard to say what 'colour' they are... like a grey/beige/extremely light brown/tan kind of 'colour'...anyway it will be interesting for me to see how the patches develop.


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