# There are too many snakes already ,in five years time ?????



## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

I 've been thinking about this for sometime and i reckon we are not far from being overloaded with snakes in this country .
I believe this will lead to the destruction of unwanted snakes within the next five years .

More and more people are now breeding in this country but unlike the States that is a huge country who also exports we do very little and are a small country.

What will become of all these large 25y plus lifespan boids that we now already own and that are also being bred regularly.

There are a lot of young people on here ,by young i mean 25 and younger that are full of good intentions that they will be keeping their snakes forever but once real life sets in and mortgages and the patter of tiny feet appear will have to make choices and it will then be goodbye snake, these will not find a ready market as youngsters coming into the hobby prefer to start with babies of their species of choice.

Burms and their like are pretty bombproof they don`t die as easily as fish and this will remain a specialist hobby .I think it is time to think twice before anyone breeds any more snakes as i reckon we are awash already.

There will be a market of course for specialist morphs but i think people breeding bog standard boas and pythons should think twice.

Just my opinion ,now running for cover :whistling2:


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## SSamm (Mar 9, 2006)

I do agree with you.

corns is one, its getting harder and harder to sell the little worms.

But tbh alot of people dont give there snakes a correct diet, weekly just makes them fat, so they are having alot shorter life spans, mine get fed every 2 - 3 weeks. 

and what you gotta look at, is with breeders, they will notice they are not selling boas and will stop breeding for abit. I mean when i have babie carpets and im struggling to sell them, i will stop for a little bit.


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## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

Similiar thread that got one reply - me.
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/general-herp-chat/449992-have-some-species-reached-crasis.html


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## Reptilerescueden (Jan 2, 2006)

Graylord said:


> I 've been thinking about this for sometime and i reckon we are not far from being overloaded with snakes in this country .
> I believe this will lead to the destruction of unwanted snakes within the next five years .
> 
> More and more people are now breeding in this country but unlike the States that is a huge country who also exports we do very little and are a small country.
> ...


I actually think your right... as a rescue the most common snakes we get in are boa constrictors and burmese pythons. Will the restriction of breeding help? Probably not much! Simply because many like you say have good intensions but there are many varying factors. Such as like you have mentioned... finanical commitments and dependant commitments are obvious but few fail to recognise just how many live babies a boa can have and far too many decide on incubating ALL the eggs of a python. Nature has always been selective so now it's time we honour Mother Nature and stop incubating all the clutches and be more responsible by keeping sexes separate. Not to mention thinking more long term! Far too many people do not respect the live span of reptiles and most certainly the cost of keeping them. So what are our options? Sure the more responsible keeper will choose not to breed, unless its of a particular Morph etc as this will go on forever... but then what? In my experience there are far too many know it all's who do what ever they please without thinking of the consequences sadly. More regulations / laws won't help... so surely it's down to education!?!?!?!?!?!


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## Solarmoon (Dec 20, 2009)

I tend to agree, thats why mine are pets only!!!


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> I 've been thinking about this for sometime and i reckon we are not far from being overloaded with snakes in this country .
> I believe this will lead to the destruction of unwanted snakes within the next five years .
> 
> More and more people are now breeding in this country but unlike the States that is a huge country who also exports we do very little and are a small country.
> ...


If new people coming into the hobby "demand" baby rather than adult snakes then we require breeding in order to "supply" that demand. If we decided not to supply that demand then the hobby will suffer and it will stagnate and die. Also, newbies will tend to start out with "bog standard boas and pythons" rather than expensive morphs so we need to be producing them as well as the niche market morphs in order to encourage new people into the hobby.

The economics of "supply and demand" will ensure that the snake market regulates itself in terms of what is being produced so I don't really see there being a major cause for concern. Just look at the way a lot of corn snake breeder decide not to breed their adults because the market is flooded and they'd struggle to sell the babies. Supply and demand always work towards an equilibrium which means that over-supply is usually corrected pretty quickly.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Comes down to one thing for a lot (coughmostcough) of so called reptile breeders - money. Simple as.

*ducks, dives and makes a speedy get a way* :whistling2:


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> Comes down to one thing for a lot (coughmostcough) of so called reptile breeders - money. Simple as.
> 
> *ducks, dives and makes a speedy get a way* :whistling2:


But the flip-side of that coin is that breeders won't produce what wont sell...because it will end up costing them money! That's how the supply and demand thing works; the two always tend to balance each other out...and when they're balanced there isn't a problem!


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## *mogwai* (Feb 18, 2008)

not exactly what you're talking about but along the same lines, it's happened with parrots. there are more captive parrots in this country than there are decent homes for them. but people will still breed them because a baby grey can cost upwards of £500. some breeders just see pound signs & not think about the babies that they're producing which have the lifespan of a human and then some. 

it's only a matter of time before it happens to reps. that's if it's not already happened.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> not exactly what you're talking about but along the same lines, it's happened with parrots. there are more captive parrots in this country than there are decent homes for them. but people will still breed them because a baby grey can cost upwards of £500. some breeders just see pound signs & not think about the babies that they're producing which have the lifespan of a human and then some.
> 
> it's only a matter of time before it happens to reps. that's if it's not already happened.


But if they cost £500, that means that there's still a demand for them...and if there's still a demand for them then we can't already have an over-supply of parrots. If there was already too many parrots on the market one of two things would happen; the price would drop year on year (like it does with royals) or breeders would stop producing babies that they couldn't sell (like some corn snake breeders do).


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## Luca Brasi (Feb 7, 2010)

essexchondro said:


> If new people coming into the hobby "demand" baby rather than adult snakes then we require breeding in order to "supply" that demand. If we decided not to supply that demand then the hobby will suffer and it will stagnate and die. Also, newbies will tend to start out with "bog standard boas and pythons" rather than expensive morphs so we need to be producing them as well as the niche market morphs in order to encourage new people into the hobby.
> 
> The economics of "supply and demand" will ensure that the snake market regulates itself in terms of what is being produced so I don't really see there being a major cause for concern. Just look at the way a lot of corn snake breeder decide not to breed their adults because the market is flooded and they'd struggle to sell the babies. Supply and demand always work towards an equilibrium which means that over-supply is usually corrected pretty quickly.


 
Having watched prices plummet in many snake adverts over the last couple of years what you’re saying is the penny will finally drop for those people who appear to be wanting to make a fast buck after seeing expensive morph prices?

I agree with the OP that there appears to be a glut of certain species. I left the last Donny show shortly before closing to see many breeders taking hundreds of hatchling corns and baby Leos home and couldn’t help wondering how they’ll move them on.

Demand has already far exceeded supply with some species as the plummeting prices will prove. Even cheap breeding pairs of corns struggle to sell these days. I just think it’s a shame that many other people are yet to realise this and don’t take 10 minutes to think whether or not they should breed their animals rather than if they could.

I am aware that some breeders temporarily stop breeding as a result Demand dropping, but not enough of them seem to. And I believe that’s the point that the OP was trying to make. Newbie, amateur breeders trying to muscle in on the current corn, Leo and royal morph market probably didn’t study economics when at school! IMHO of course.


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## *mogwai* (Feb 18, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> But if they cost £500, that means that there's still a demand for them...and if there's still a demand for them then we can't already have an over-supply of parrots. If there was already too many parrots on the market one of two things would happen; the price would drop year on year (like it does with royals) or breeders would stop producing babies that they couldn't sell (like some corn snake breeders do).


there's still a demand for 'cuddly tame' babies but they get re-homed so easily. have a look at pre-loved and other free-ad sites, there's loads of young (2-3 years old) parrots for sale. even here, there's quite a few parrots for sale on the classifieds. i have a rescue senegal, she was 2 when i got her but i am her 3rd home.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> there's still a demand for 'cuddly tame' babies but they get re-homed so easily. have a look at pre-loved and other free-ad sites, there's loads of young (2-3 years old) parrots for sale. even here, there's quite a few parrots for sale on the classifieds. i have a rescue senegal, she was 2 when i got her but i am her 3rd home.


Sound to me like we need more restrictions on _buying_ parrots, not breeding them.


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## Reptilerescueden (Jan 2, 2006)

If there was ever going to be an influence amongst reps then I'd like breeders / keepers to do it amongst those that are less popular today. The Plated Lizards and Bull Snakes only a couple that get a hard time but deserve a good boost if given the right circumstances.
Sounds a bit hypercritical of me considering I have thse available for rehoming, but that isn't meant to be the case. I have been rescuing for almost 5 years (not long) and only twice have I had in a Plated Lizard or a Pine / Bull Snake. Neither I might add have been aggressive (that has been recorded for the Bulls etc). But have been the ones that have taken the longest to rehome compared to a Boa Constrictor or a Burmese Python for example. The point I am getting at is they are are no longer fashonable pets. Maybe we need a Disney movie to make that statement or similar! LOL That will make all the difference.... we only have to think of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles for that one.:whistling2:


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## Reptilerescueden (Jan 2, 2006)

essexchondro said:


> Sound to me like we need more restrictions on _buying_ parrots, not breeding them.


Ditto


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## meatgecko (Aug 25, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> Sound to me like we need more restrictions on _buying_ parrots, not breeding them.


Nah I'd like to think that education would be enough for people. unnecessary laws are a killer to any hobby/past time.


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## Reptilerescueden (Jan 2, 2006)

meatgecko said:


> Nah I'd like to think that education would be enough for people. unnecessary laws are a killer to any hobby/past time.


So are mongs who have no idea on how to keep such beautiful animals mate.


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## meatgecko (Aug 25, 2007)

Reptilerescueden said:


> So are mongs who have no idea on how to keep such beautiful animals mate.


Oh I totally agree with you. I just don't think passing new laws are the answer, I see a lot of people buying all manner of reptiles with the sole intention of breeding them nothing else. Sadly when the said reptiles aren't well cared for and end up being sold on/re-homed it's heart braking of us that take in sick or un wanted animals.


sometimes people can only see £££ instead of looking out for the animal


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## cjsnakes (Feb 15, 2009)

I think it goes for most animals these days not just certain breeds. I still breed corns but not every year and its totally for my self to have differnt morphs, but will sell if theres interest but thats not my reason for breeding and also keep other snakes and lizzards that are stricly pets only and every single one gets loads of attention and handling (even names) 

but not everyone is like this like already disscused people breed for money and i wish some breeders would think or reconsider before breeding there are so many that need rehoming as it is
mostly dogs cats and reps
my other half wants a dog and i told him only if we can go to the rspca or other rescue centers first


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> But the flip-side of that coin is that breeders won't produce what wont sell...because it will end up costing them money! That's how the supply and demand thing works; the two always tend to balance each other out...and when they're balanced there isn't a problem!



There's a demand for them because breeders see pound signs, nothing more. People will pay upwards of £1000 for an animal that they can breed and make profit from, thus creating demand, *purely *because of money.
It's a good job most hepr breeders don't breed Dogs, Cats, Rodents etc, they'd have shock of their lives over the fact a litter barely breaks even, let alone makes profit! Breeding in any case should be a hobby, not a pass time to make every Tom, Dick and Harry some extra cash. :devil::devil:


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

The biggest problem, as I see it, is not that there are too many snakes, but too many of too few species.
When I first started, all you could get were WC garters, normal corns (amels and anery's were highly sought after, the only corn morphs, and only just starting to appear), and the odd boa. Royals were all WC and considered almost impossible to breed.
Then some variety appeared, and people were keeping all sorts of different species, kings, european rats, american rats, various different python and boa species and plenty of other odd species that cropped up now and again in imports.
But now, the hobby seems to have gone backwards rather than forwards and has become very inward looking. The reason why there are so many corns is because of the obsession with morphs - people started to breed hundreds of them in a bid to create the next big morph and make a lot of money. Of course, there will be a limit as to how many morphs can be created, and now all the people that want corns have them, so the value has dropped.
Today, unless it is a royal, boa, or corn morph it seems like people just aren't interested. There are so many more species which have yet to be properly worked with, but with the obsession with morph breeding rather than the challenge of working with a species new to, or at least rarely seen in, the hobby it means that the variety of species available becomes diminished.


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## Stavros88 (Dec 6, 2008)

Will mean costs get driven down and I'll FINALLY be able to afford a BEL 

However there is the point that if unscrupulous breeders can't sell their snakes for extortionate prices they may end up neglecting them. Which is sad.


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## Luca Brasi (Feb 7, 2010)

ian14 said:


> The biggest problem, as I see it, is not that there are too many snakes, but too many of too few species.
> When I first started, all you could get were WC garters, normal corns (amels and anery's were highly sought after, the only corn morphs, and only just starting to appear), and the odd boa. Royals were all WC and considered almost impossible to breed.
> Then some variety appeared, and people were keeping all sorts of different species, kings, european rats, american rats, various different python and boa species and plenty of other odd species that cropped up now and again in imports.
> But now, the hobby seems to have gone backwards rather than forwards and has become very inward looking. The reason why there are so many corns is because of the obsession with morphs - people started to breed hundreds of them in a bid to create the next big morph and make a lot of money. Of course, there will be a limit as to how many morphs can be created, and now all the people that want corns have them, so the value has dropped.
> Today, unless it is a royal, boa, or corn morph it seems like people just aren't interested. There are so many more species which have yet to be properly worked with, but with the obsession with morph breeding rather than the challenge of working with a species new to, or at least rarely seen in, the hobby it means that the variety of species available becomes diminished.


.

I agree with everything written in this post. In fact I wrote something very similar on a royal thread a few days ago and also stated that it’s disappointing there isn’t more interest in other species. After all, they offer diversification and more of a challenge. I was met with comments such as “If I want a challenge I’ll play a video game”. Ironically by an individual who has vested interests in morph sales.

So it’s all about people making money. Call me sceptical but many threads seem to hint of people wanting to make money more than the joy of keeping reps for the sake of keeping reps. Some people even believe that their morph is better than a normal as it’s worth more, even though it might be inbred and a poor example of the actual morph. It’s all a bit odd to me!


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> There's a demand for them because breeders see pound signs, nothing more. People will pay upwards of £1000 for an animal that they can breed and make profit from, thus creating demand, purely because of money


.


Well of course it can ultimately boil down to money; we live in a capitalist society, after all! But that _*does*_ mean that supply and demand are balancing each other out...and if that's the case then there isn't a problem in terms of surplus animals being produced! "Greed" is actually a very good regulator of the market...because "greedy" breeders won't over-produce animals if they know they can't sell them and "greedy" buyers who want to breed to make a profit are buying up the animals that are being produced. You show me another system that could regulate production and consumption so effectively (and don't say state communist because that isn't effective!).



> It's a good job most hepr breeders don't breed Dogs, Cats, Rodents etc, they'd have shock of their lives over the fact a litter barely breaks even, let alone makes profit!


Maybe that ones of the reasons they don't breed cats and dogs! (Rodent breeding can actually be quite profitable).




> Breeding in any case should be a hobby, not a pass time to make every Tom, Dick and Harry some extra cash.


So should breeders be giving away their off-spring for free? The reptile hobby would be non-existent without the professional breeders doing it to make a living! I don't see much future for the hobby if every hobbyist had your mind-set and thought it was morally wrong to recoup some money for all their efforts and hard work!!


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