# Your Bearded Dragon - Its habitat and Water!



## HadesDragons

This is an article written by Rick Catt, an Australian beardie breeder (Rick01 on here) - he's asked me to repost it here as it should be of interest / use to beardie owners to better understand exactly what a captive beardie needs.




> *Australia's Arid Lands*
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> Put simply, the arid and semi-arid lands are those remote and sparsely populated areas of inland Australia, defined by the presence of desert vegetation and land forms as well as by low rainfall. They are bound by median annual rainfalls of about 250 mm in the south but up to 800 mm in the north and about 500 mm in the east.
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> Together with sub-tropical regions and the mountain high plains, they form the rangelands, where rainfall is too low or unpredictable or where terrain is too inhospitable for sustainable cropping or timber harvesting. The rangelands amount to 70% of Australia's land surface, and by far the largest part is arid or semi arid. The vegetation of the arid lands has a strong influence on land use and productivity. The saltbush, mulga and grassy plains provide pasture for sheep and cattle as well as habitat for unique mammals and birds. In the dry infertile interior, the spinifex-covered sand plains and stony deserts are too tough for livestock. Instead they are home to a multiplicity of termite species and the world's richest lizard fauna.
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> It is an uncompromising environment at times but never monotonous. The climate of arid Australia is more variable than in arid lands anywhere else in the world, with highly erratic rainfall, extremes of long dry periods and flooding deluges. As well, soils are characteristically very infertile over vast areas compared to other deserts of comparable aridity.
> The range of flora and fauna occupying the various ecosystems also contrasts with that from other arid regions of the world. Major differences include the lack of many succulents, the small number of large mammals and the high numbers and diversity of lizards as well as social insects such as ants and termites. These factors combined determine the arid zone's uniqueness……….
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> _© Copyright CSIRO Australia 2000 - 2006_
> _The full content of this may be viewed at http://www.cazr.csiro.au/aridlands.htm together with additional information regarding this area of our country._
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> To better understand your dragon some knowledge of their territory including climatic conditions is needed.
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> The first picture indicates the approximate territory inhabited by Pogona vitticeps, north/south some 1500 km, east/west about 1000 km. The next is a physical representation from which it can be seen that the area of habitation is generally low lying, and on the eastern side, cut off from the coast by a mountain range which severely limits all rainfall.
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> From this rainfall analysis it can then be seen that the majority of their territory receives less than 100 mm of rain in the 6 month period covering the height of their activity and the following temperature analysis again shows mean max temps in excess of 33C over the same period.
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> The picture emerging already indicates that the land is dry and hot during the majority of the time that they are active.
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> However these are only averages so a look at specifics can make things even clearer. I use Alice Springs as everyone knows where it is and it is situated well within the dragons preferred range.
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> Notice here that the mean minimum temps are only 15.8C - probably not much warmer (if at all) than your overnight house temps but more to the point the rainfall of 6.8 mm total with a rate of evaporation of 364.8 mm.
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> Dragons are starting to get around at this point, mating and laying.
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> By December you can expect that babies are hatching, mean lowest temp 21.3C and mean highest 35.2C. Again look at the water, total rainfall 21mm with a total evaporation rate of 396mm.
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> February when everything is peaking, temps are little changed and rainfall total is still low at 6.4mm with total evaporation at 424mm.
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> A bit of quick math’s shows that total rainfall in these three months is 34.2 mm BUT evaporation has been at the rate of a massive 1184.8 mm. Given that only 34.2 mm fell this means that another 1150.6 mm of standing water would have evaporated in those three months.
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> *Puddles? What puddles?*
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> Open water that is not flowing or well shaded at the bottom of gorges doesn’t stand much chance in these conditions, which is why dragons (among many other creatures) have developed the ability to survive very happily without the need to drink (or bathe) and extract their fluid needs from their food. Their kidneys act like a recirculatory system removing as much as possible and then excreting urates (a semi-solid) the cloaca then has another go and hauls out any more fluid it can leaving the final deposit as a semi-solid excretion.
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> Now the pretty pictures, as I don’t have any personal ones from around Alice Springs I’m using an area stretching from around Uluru, south to Coober Pedy and east to White Cliffs instead (all three places are available to view using Google Earth).
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> This proves that water does exist but you’ll note that it is concealed in a steep sided gorge of which there are not a lot as seen by the flatness of the land in the following shots.
> In the following photos you can get an idea of exactly how sparse the vegetation is and how flat the land, leaving very little in the way of shaded areas for water to remain.
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> The first photo is of gum trees near Uluru and the second is of the land approaching Mt Connor which is around 88 km from Uluru. Notice also the ground itself - a hard baked surface with a scattering of small rocks and over everything a fine layer of red dust.
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> For anyone who’s interested it’s just as flat on the road near Coober Pedy around 500 km south of Uluru,
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> And no better on the way to White Cliffs NSW some 1400 km south east of Uluru.
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> To get some perspective on these two shots, the blob on the road in the first one is my brother-in-law, and the little white dot in the middle of the second is my sister-in-law (and no I didn’t leave them out there!)
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> Maps carry warnings on them, such as:-
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> _“The majority of water features shown on this map do not contain permanent water.”_
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> _“Travellers should familiarise themselves with prevailing conditions before departure and take care to ensure their vehicle is roadworthy and that they carry adequate supplies of petrol, water and food.”_
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> Having broken down on the Stuart Highway 60 km past Coober Pedy I can tell you that there are two questions that get asked by everyone who stops (and over here that is everyone who goes past);
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> 1/ Do you need help
> 2/ Have you anything to drink
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> You can’t just stroll down the road a bit and find a small stream or similar; they just aren’t there.
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> For those who would like to check these facts (or do some further research) all the climate related information may be obtained from here Climate Data Online Google Earth and images will also help.
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> In conclusion you can see that the land is harsh, day time temps are high but night time temps are low.* Water is practically non-existent thus* *your dragon does not need or want swimming and drinking lessons as he lives happily without a constant water supply (in most areas – no water supply)*. So to copy this you will need a high temp basking spot of 35C+ (remembering that dragons thermoregulate by moving from sunlight to shade) and a cool side of around 25C during daylight plus bright white lighting to simulate the sun. For night, no light and temps dropping to 16~20C. For furnishing, a basking rock, a hiding area, climbing frame and mixed sand and stone as a base. Only one other item and that is a small bowl of water – although your dragon will almost certainly never drink, if the occasion arises that he feels dehydrated, water is available to him.
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> _© _Rick Catt
> Australia 2008


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## weeminx

:2thumb: fantastic thread:2thumb: thanks to you and rick :2thumb:


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## MrMike

Aye, very interesting, thanks for posting.


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## Juzza12

I've worried a bit about not having a water bowl but this has put my mind at ease, a sticky me thinks


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## Lilemz

There's lots of conflicing info around and i just get confused lol i was told not use a hide as they tend to use it too much and dont get the heat or uv they need x


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## HadesDragons

Lilemz said:


> There's lots of conflicing info around and i just get confused lol i was told not use a hide as they tend to use it too much and dont get the heat or uv they need x


I've always advised people not to use a cave-style hide as it blocks all heat / UV; some babies will spend a lot of time in the hide. It's always a good idea to put something in that a beardie can hide behind, whilst still getting heat / UV. 

In cages with UV tubes, I generally use tall rocks to form a kind of screen at either end that a beardie can go behind to get out of sight of us, whilst still getting heat (if in the hot end), and UV regardless of which end it's at.


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## sparkle

excellent thanks x


i also advise not to use a hide.. but to build up rocks or java woods to form climbing and shade where there is stil heat..

I was once told a baby beardie had to have a hide on t thread from a newbie scared their beardie was hiding in its hide al day not eating or basking....and a mod delted my post saying it could be detremental to the baby as it would hide if it was scared and then go too cool to be active..

im glad theres some sense being made of this now

i also dont bathe my beardies or have a water bowl in all the time

they have fresh blueberries and other types of fruits and vege sprayed with water daily so they intake that way and twice a week i pop a water bowl in for a few hours to allow them to drink if needs be

I only bathe my beardies IF they have managed to get dirty from any poop in their vivs before i have spot cleaned.. but its not a regular occurance

I guess everyone has their own way... and some work whilst some dont..


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## zemanski

I think this should be pinned:no1:


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## davesadlerfunkaholic

thats really informative, thanks


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## rick01

Thanks guys - hopefully it's something that newbies will read and then think a little about what they are doing (or not) for their beardie.

Rick


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## Tehanu

Great effort Rick 

I for one absolutely advocate a naturalistic approach that _actually_ takes the information we have about that species range into full account!


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## steved

Thanks to the both of you for the info. :2thumb:

As beardies are so wide spread now I think more people should be made aware of it's natural habitat and try to adapt they way they are kept to better suit there needs. 

Ban the bark chips! Scrap the sand! :whip:


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## bmth girl

Hurrah ..at last hopefuly all new beardi lovers will take this on board and see that it makes absolute sense......:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## MarshallDavies

*very informative*

cheers guys


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## zebedeepink

That's really great thanks - it's really put my mind at rest. George used to have a water bowl when she was a baby but never went near it so I took it out and she hasn't had one since. I do spray her veggies and occasionally, she will take some diluted apple juice from a syringe but I still worry about her not getting enough fluid.


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## Bigjim

Really great article!

Please can I copy it for other forums I belong to?

Cheers

Jamie


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## Nick83

good read


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## Bigjim

I didn't read anything about them living in a 4 x 2 foot box in their natural environment.

Anyway, when my Beardie asks for a can of coke........what am I supposed to say?

:bash:


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## bmth girl

"with or without ice?"​


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## Bigjim

bmth girl said:


> "with or without ice?"​


He only likes ice when he has JD too. :2thumb:


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## bmth girl

:lol2: ew hes a lightweight ! I drink my JD on the rocks ...:mf_dribble:


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## rick01

If he was a real Aussie it'd be Bundy and coke or a VB!!

Rick


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## bmth girl

rick01 said:


> If he was a real Aussie it'd be Bundy and coke or a VB!!
> 
> Rick


 Now this is getting silly.....Rick didnt you say that they dont drink !......:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## rick01

Everyone knows social drinking doesn't count:whistling2: 

Rick:blush:


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## bmth girl

:lol2:.....I love the fact that you always have to have the last word...


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## Tur7le

Not having a water bowl in with your bearded dragon is just absurd. Just because an animal struggles to find water in its natural habitat and has adapted to gaining water through foods does not mean that it prefers not to have water (not that it is aware it ever has a choice). Do people only feed their dogs 2-3 a week? No and they don't feed them elk either. Water is good for skin and aids shedding, give the dragon a choice.


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## rick01

> :lol2:.....I love the fact that you always have to have the last word...


No I don't:Na_Na_Na_Na:

By the way do you want to answer Tur7le - I can't be bothered.

Rick


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## Meko

Tur7le said:


> Not having a water bowl in with your bearded dragon is just absurd. Just because an animal struggles to find water in its natural habitat and has adapted to gaining water through foods does not mean that it prefers not to have water (not that it is aware it ever has a choice). Do people only feed their dogs 2-3 a week? No and they don't feed them elk either. Water is good for skin and aids shedding, give the dragon a choice.


and if you had a camel would you stick a bowl of water in front of it daily?

and if you knew anything or read the post you'd realise they get their water intake from their food.


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## Tur7le

I did read it and yes alot of species have adapted to but there's still no proof that they prefere not to have water. Ive often seen them bathing around the time they are shedding. If I did own a camel of course i'd make sure it always had access to water, not doing would be silly "not today camel you can survive for 2 weeks yet you dont look thin enough for a drink" And the RSPCA would have something to say about that. I just don't think you should be advising people to deprive an animal of water.


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## Meko

what about increasing the humidity in their environment that could make them ill?


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## Tur7le

A well ventilated vivarium prevents an increased humidity.


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## bmth girl

rick01 said:


> No I don't:Na_Na_Na_Na:
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> By the way do you want to answer Tur7le - I can't be bothered.
> 
> Rick


 :lol2:Tur7le.........."Knowledge is power".....


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## bmth girl

Tur7le said:


> Not having a water bowl in with your bearded dragon is just absurd. Just because an animal struggles to find water in its natural habitat and has adapted to gaining water through foods does not mean that it prefers not to have water (not that it is aware it ever has a choice). Do people only feed their dogs 2-3 a week? No and they don't feed them elk either. Water is good for skin and aids shedding, give the dragon a choice.


 Do dogs eat elk?......not sure mines does ( in secret she might go out hunting around the southern coast) but she is partial to a carrot, does this mean shes a veggie ..."shock ...horror"


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## Tur7le

I was simply refering to wolves in their natural state lol We too have a staff that will eat anything- onion, tomato, monstermunch..etc


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## bmth girl

Tur7le said:


> I was simply refering to wolves in their natural state lol We too have a staff that will eat anything- onion, tomato, monstermunch..etc


 I love pickled onion flavoured monster munch ...:lol2:​


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## evoluanx

We recently moved, and my OH took one of her beardies with her. Currently it's on a hardwood floor, and i understand it has to be about 32 Degree's C. But it takes a long time to heat up, and the other day i saw the temp at around 40. Would a rug uner the viv help warm it up faster, and i think the temp went up because we had the heating on.....


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## [email protected]

*bathing*

i caught my female beardie bathing herself in the water bowl the other week, she was also pregnant at the time. is this because of being uncomfortable - due 2 pregnancy, too hot, or just pure fun?!? i thought it could also be because of shedding but i didnt notice her shedding.:hmm:


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## rick01

I've noticed ours doing this just before laying, possibly due to the laying mix not seeming moist enough for them. They'd have a good soak and drink then shortly after disappear and dig like mad! Usually laying a clutch within a couple of days.

Rick


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## dannyboy1986

*Water!!*

Hey guys im new to this site but just thought id let you all know that ive been told (and do ) that to not put any water in the bearded dragons viv and to spray it lightly and spray a rock or somthing in the viv!!!
this acts as morning due and the lizard will also get its water out of its fruit and veg!!

thanks guys!!:blush:


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## bmth girl

dannyboy1986 said:


> Hey guys im new to this site but just thought id let you all know that ive been told (and do ) that to not put any water in the bearded dragons viv and to spray it lightly and spray a rock or somthing in the viv!!!
> this acts as morning due and the lizard will also get its water out of its fruit and veg!!
> 
> thanks guys!!:blush:


 Hi best not spray any water in the viv....(humidity increases, they have it dry) in fact I would not spray at all...all your bds water should come from the veg and food he eats ......:2thumb:


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## reptiles_galore

tbh i keep waer in the viv at the cool end, humidity is not efected an its there incase he wants some. it wont do him noharm for it to be there.


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## dannyboy1986

its just the rspca ppl wer i got her from sed its best to spray them as it acts as morning due and they dont have easy acsess to water and the humidity is not afected rarly so wat do you guys think it is best to do carry on orput water in the viv? also on a night time shes goes darker is this a related problem do u think? or normall?


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## Crd86

I would say a bath once a week. But spraying every other day is fine aswell.


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## dannyboy1986

i got told to spray her and her rock everymoring and night its hard to giv her a bath has she crnt be handled as she is a rescuse dragon and not yet used to being handled


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## dannyboy1986

i just wundered if her going darker on a night time that this was smumthing to do with her water like dehidrationg or sumthing


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## alphakenny1

dannyboy1986 said:


> i just wundered if her going darker on a night time that this was smumthing to do with her water like dehidrationg or sumthing


she will go darker when not under the uv light, mine is yellow in the light and slightly brown at night


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## Crd86

I was say its def not because it is dehydrating they dont need that much water as they generally go long periods without it. IS she going dark when the light go's out or before?


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## dannyboy1986

just b4 and mainly during the light is out but wen i say b4 i mean like a few mins b4 s she seems her normall trying to eat ur fingetr self lol


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## Crd86

How long is the uv on for and what type of uv tube is it? They would go darker to try and absorb more uv.


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## dannyboy1986

its a proper daylight uv build i got a uv tester n it gives of millions of uvs lol and she only does this when shes on her branch in the cool end this is wer she sleeps


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## Fcukangel

I had never thought about the water but come to think of it i have never seen my beardie drink although she has layed in her water bowl. Regards to the hide i bought one for my beardie and she spent all day in it, after reading this i am giving her the hide at night to sleep in but removing it in the day.


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## big ady

I just put a water bowl down the cool end so it doesn't affect the humidity and so even if my beardies don't use it the crickets and locusts always seem to have a drink and at the end of the day the only way your beardies can get water from there live food is if they've had a drink. But anyway good post really helpful


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## poizon

so are we saying dont put a water bowl in viv at all? surly its better to have one just in case? i know mine has never drunk from hers (expent once when she was ouside in the sunshine she had a play and drink), is at the cool end so dont raise humidity

wouldnt not putting water in go against the AWA?


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## rick01

If you read the last line of my article you'll see that I do say "put a small bowl of water in...".


Rick:lol2:


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## palmer91

i put a small water bowl in my viv but i allow them a bath a few times a week as they apparently absorb a huge amount of water through the vent,, just to keep them hydrated.


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## rick01

mg:

I must rush out and tell all our wild dragons to go and sit in the water next time they want a drink! 


Rick


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## Paul B

*Good post*

Do you know. us beardie parents spend a lot of time reading about the do's and the donts. This is a great post and we should all strive to keep our little ones in as close as possible to natural environment as possible.
Now to my point.
Its the time old discussion about substrate. i am not sure about sand and stones. Maybe its me but I have seen an impacted BD and it is not a happy sight.
I try to use 'rocks' (big ones) and childrens washed play sand which I heve never had problems with. This along with sturdy climbing branches and some thick artificial foliage that creates the shady bit but doesnt affect the ambient temps and also gives the UV a chance to shine through the branches. 

Babies, on kitchen roll or reptile carpet only. They get so excited when the food comes they will swallow anything.


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## Paul B

*Water*

Hi agian,

I give my beardies a weekly bath in the bath at baby temperature.
It helps with hydration and if they do want a drink they will drink.
Some do and some dont.
The other thing it helps with is the pooing. You can pretty much guarantee that once the BD has been in the bath (3-4 inches deep) for a few minutes he/she will reward you with a present.
They seem to like it too.


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## lesleykno

I feel i have read loads and are so excited i am getting my first baby beardie tomorrow. I do want to lower the temp at night and was thinking of 20oC. I will need to see what the breeder has done so i dont shock the dragon. Have you any advise on what salad you feed. I read turnip greens and squash are good. Any lettuce?


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## Smaug85

I heard Romaine lettuce is pretty much the only type you can feed a beardie, but its not really that good nutritionally. My beardie doesn't show much interest in it so I feed it to crickets instead :lol2:


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## alfie reptiles

ahh i got a cave style rock and today my beardie spent alot of time in it and i had to take it out to feed him because he wouldn't come out should i be worried??


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## robbo101

thats sucha great help cheers.


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## GothGirl




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## hungovermatt

Why do we worry about heating our beardies at night (say, if it goes below 15 degrees c) when, having looked at temp info for alice springs, it can go as low as 5 degrees C there, and beardies happily live in those conditions???


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## rick01

Mostly they're brumating when you get temps of 5C o'night on a regular basis. Having said that I only heat our babies o'night for around 2 weeks and that is set at 18C. By 6 months when winter is setting in here they all happily get down to10~15C night temps without problems. I do brumate the adults for 3 months and they're at a temp of 10c+ approx.

Rick


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## hungovermatt

Cheers Rick. In principle then, would you have any concerns with my proposal here http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/229446-my-idea-comments-please-bd.html?


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## Tur7le

A journal i've found whilst writing my dissertation, 

'Two Common Disorders of Captive Bearded Dragons (_Pogona vitticeps_): Nutritional Secondary Hyperparathyroidism and Constipation' (Wright K, 2008 ). Journal of Exotic Pet Medicine Volume 17, Issue 4, October 2008, Pages 267-272. 

"Treatment of constipation depends on the underlying cause but is frequently due to a lack of sufficient water in the diet and the environment."
"Clients mistakenly think that bearded dragons come from a barren desert environment. Actually, they are exposed to seasonal rains and, even in the dry seasons, may spend lots of time in humid microhabitats, such as burrows or tucked into clumps of grass. A subclinically dehydrated bearded dragon is not going to utilize nutrients as efficiently as a well-hydrated lizard. If the client is not spray-misting the bearded dragon daily, denies the lizard access to a humid retreat (e.g., a sweater box packed with damp sphagnum moss), or fails to soak it several times a week, the bearded dragon may be suffering from chronic subclinical dehydration."


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## rick01

Whilst I have no doubt about K. Wright's credentials as an authority on Exotics (from an American point of view) I can see no field work nor any discussion with Australian authorities in his CV - see;

Arizona Exotic Animal Hospital

I have no problem with the statement


> "Treatment of constipation depends on the underlying cause but is frequently due to a lack of sufficient water in the diet and the environment."


 However I still maintain, as do local breeders, Australian veterinary references and other local sources, that a properly balanced diet and well maintained general husbandry will provide all the required fluid intake and that the practices he is espousing can in fact cause problems rather than prevent them.

Rick


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## Grayspoon

I personally dont keep a water bowl in my viv, just because he never uses it and just fills it full of sand! But we water him every day with a pipet and give him a bath to swim in once a week... yes he is spoilt! but he seems quite happy with this life of luxury he has been having for the last few years


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## melewie

great post.


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## reptile k1ng

Thanks for posting, It's put my worries about my beardies away and it was a great read cheers again.

Chris


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## tattoobaz

thanks for the info, there is a lot of conflicting opinions on the net and its reassuring to hear some good information in detail.


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## shamski

Ive had beardies for a few years now and did a lot of research before even considering buying one of these wonderful reptiles. I was given lots of conflicting advice on keeping these reptiles but I've found that my guys do not appreciate having a water bowl in their vivs. I mist my dragons usually every other day if they need it (and they tell me if they dont by moving swiftly to the back of the viv) and they put their head down and proceed to lick the water as it drips down their face. They also have a bathe once a week for around 5 mins especially when they are shedding which they really appreciate and they normally put their head down and have a drink whilst in the water (again I know if they dont want to bathe as they will only stay in the water for 30 secs). They are very happy, healthy animals. I think people just need to watch their behaviour as all beardies are different and will certainly let you know if they are not happy. If you put them in water and they dont want to drink or bathe then that should tell you that they dont need anymore water intake at that time. I do have one exception and he just loves water and likes to swim around in it. He is always the thirstyist of the 3 but is kept in exactely the same enviroment however doesnt like his greens as much which shows that they must get plenty of fluid from their food. Lets keep it natural for them, watch their behaviour and let them show you what they want instead of us humans forcing these things upon them. Most of all have fun with your beardie!!


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## littleemma2002

i am thinking about getting a beardie and this has helped a lot


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## cazzahaz

oh, my reptile shop advised having a well ventilated viv and keeping a water bowl in there, i would take it out now i have read this but it seems my beardie had taken to swimming like a duck and is in there quite a lot, is this bad for him? :gasp:


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## rick01

If the bowl is shallow and your relative humidity levels are around 30~50% then there is probably no great risk. Beardies are however susceptible to Upper Respiritory Tract Infections so you do need to watch for breathing abnormalities if he's exposed to water constantly.

Rick


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## Shokkz

very intresting:no1:


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## Buggs47

When I was in Tunisia in part we went to the camels liked both whiskey and it was fun watching 1 drink a bottle of coke......not 1 of them had water......


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## george0

really interesting stuff on this tread... hat off to you sir .


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## honey-pie

I have been a little concerned as we've recently redecorated our beardies viv. While the girls seem a lot more content our male beardie seems to be spending more and more time in the house that we have included in thier new condo. He's a lazy little lad at the best of times but everytime i get him out his viv now he seems to want to go straight back in. The girls are the same but they're using thier basking area's well and climbing a lot more whilst he is eating his fill having a little strut around then makin for his house. The night before last Ruby, the eldest, spent the night in the house with him, and last night Willow did while the remaining female found a resting spot either on top of the house or hid behind an artificial plant. I always leave a water bowl in thier viv as Ruby just loves to smin in it, she is in her absolute element in water and swims like a dolphin, she's almost graceful, its fantastic to watch either in the bath or in her large water bowl. I would put up a video of her but i dont know lol. Thanks to the poster for the valuable information, but im worried now. Should i recreate a home similar to what the writer said or do i leave them as they are??? Another question!!!!! Is sawdust ok for adult beardies or dangerous for impaction? Thanks Liz : victory:

I forgot to say the house is ample for all 3 of them to fit inside


----------



## GECKO=]

brilliant thread 
and sum good advice
i'm going to build a rock hide 
but i might just keep the hide


----------



## rick01

I can't tell you what you should do, all I can do is try and give you an insight into how and where they live naturally. Personally I use a mix of rock and sand as substrate and have never considered sawdust as an option. As to the water bowl, I do have one but it is small and in the cool end, beardies can quite easily catch a respiritory disease from too humid an enclosure or exposure to too much water so on a personal level it's not something I would ever have as a "swimming pool".
Bottom line it's all up to you - however an arid type landscape is much nearer natural for them than a water hole and plants!

Rick


----------



## Barndogstellaboo

*Natural habitats*

Great posting thanks ,of real intrest seeing the natural habitat in which an animal lives. I've always had a water dish in my beardie(Grover)viv giving him the option to drink or not, and he does head straight in cheeks pulsing. no hide though he just curls up where he's comfy.

1.1.0 White's Tree Frogs
1.0.0 Bearded Dragon
0.0.10 Achatina Fulica


----------



## Sazbird

Wow, Thanks you lot. We are just getting ready to have a corn snake in the next few weeks but I really would like a bearded dragon in the near future. Me an hubby have been browsing for the last week getting loads of tips for snakes but I found this really useful for the future.:notworthy:


----------



## NIKON

rick01 said:


> Mostly they're brumating when you get temps of 5C o'night on a regular basis. Having said that I only heat our babies o'night for around 2 weeks and that is set at 18C. By 6 months when winter is setting in here they all happily get down to10~15C night temps without problems. I do brumate the adults for 3 months and they're at a temp of 10c+ approx.
> 
> Rick


 SORRY COMPLETE NOOBIE WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY BRUMATING?:blush:


----------



## rick01

Hi,

This thread will cover your query quite well http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/69162-brumation-who-what-why-when.html

Rick


----------



## Dave W

This was very interesting and really helpful. But we were told to regularly mist the dragons esp. when shedding and give them baths every now and then. I'm not sure if this is right now?!?


----------



## rick01

As far as I'm concerned the only time I'd add water to a dragon would be if it was having difficulty shedding, constipated, badly dehydrated or filthy dirty. As you can see water isn't something they see that often and so have developed such that they don't need it any more - so - basically it isn't needed.

Rick


----------



## DuFFs1989

cool thread, very useful and lots of information =]


----------



## bluestaffie

*hiya*

hey, well this post is very informative. i have yet to get my first dragon (next week i shall be picking one up) so i am a newbie at this and found this a very helpful read


----------



## Dynamos Dragons

You will love having a Beardie, they are so funny to watch and great pets to have, i have 2 and 15 on the way :2thumb: Well being incubated at the mo, and she has started digging again so looks like another batch will soon be here too :O


----------



## bluestaffie

Tur7le said:


> I was simply refering to wolves in their natural state lol We too have a staff that will eat anything- onion, tomato, monstermunch..etc


Onion ??? sorry to but in here, but if you are talking about feeding a dog onion then thats ridiculous as its bad for them! onions are toxic to dogs. Before i get a ranting reply all my dogs are fed on A raw meat and bones diet the best for them (no chemicals ect) so i do know what i am talking about there.
FAB post peeps, great advise about their living conditions in the wild. A Wild pet should be kept to whats natural.


----------



## Dynamos Dragons

Lol yep another 19 are now in the incubator :2thumb:


----------



## lincsflier

Thanks for the posts everyone as newbie dragon keeper i've asked every shop near for best substrate and had different answers from them all. 

So going to use play sand and large rocks with small water. Seems best to keep it simple. Also been advised not to use basking spot but cermaic heater instead.

So much different information going for a JD and coke without ice. lol


----------



## Dynamos Dragons

Lol thats how it always is, however dont use play sand for a baby or juvenile dragon not until its around 8 months old :2thumb:


----------



## lincsflier

He's eight months old today . Thats okay then anyone got any thoughts on the ceramic heater idea or best just to use this for background heat down the end of the viv away from the basking spot on a ministat. The viv is 4ft x 1.5ft x 1.5ft.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Dynamos Dragons

Im sorry ive never used a ceramic heater, I just use a 3ft 10%uvb strip and 100w spot for basking, thats all i use in a 4ft x2ft x2ft viv and that keeps the temps fine.:2thumb:


----------



## lincsflier

Thanks for that got a 36" Arcadia D3+ and 100W tight beam basking spot.

:cheers:

PS I know this is off topic and a complete noob question but what do the numbers mean at the bottom in the sigs?.:notworthy:


----------



## scalez

lincsflier said:


> Thanks for that got a 36" Arcadia D3+ and 100W tight beam basking spot.
> 
> :cheers:
> 
> PS I know this is off topic and a complete noob question but what do the numbers mean at the bottom in the sigs?.:notworthy:


it's a sticky in the newbie thread
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/newbie-advice/112138-1-2-0-what-does.html


----------



## Howedude

Great post dude:2thumb:


----------



## tigerpaws

here is a video of my beardie having a drink from his water bowl 

..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4rdrfR30e8

Alan


----------



## Benjam

*Thanks*

Got my beardies today and this has been a big help, those reptile shops just try and sell you everything they can.


----------



## turpin's corner

Excellent read.. I've learnt a lot through reading threads such as these and I'm sure my BD's are grateful...!!

Nice one :2thumb:


----------



## philmenuts

*bearded dragon owner*

enjoyed reading that , good info ty, im new 2 this site : victory:


----------



## 11razza

davesadlerfunkaholic said:


> thats really informative, thanks


but i hav a hide for ma beardie n i put a heat mat under his hide so he does get heat wen he is in it


----------



## dushy

*hi*

to let u know you can burn the dragon belly like that


----------



## Mujician

dushy said:


> to let u know you can burn the dragon belly like that


 
Not if its on a thermostat, and the heatmat is under something like a tile or lino.


----------



## Mujician

Also puts pay to the idea that Rankins dragons should be kept in the same way. Using the maps and charts on this thread, and a map od P. Henrilawsoni territory, they have more rainfall, therefore there is more vegitation, and this in turn means no sand!!!!!


----------



## rick01

Have you actually seen the Savannah plains where they come from? It's soil is nearly as crappy as the main area for Centrals and whilst they may have more vegetation this is a comparative term. It's mainly grassland with scattered scrub and trees, here's a link to the actual weather stats for Julie Creek which is the best I can do for Black Soil Beardies range. http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_029025.shtml Note the rainfall is only heavy for two months with high average temps at the same time and even then the humidity is low so it's disappearing almost before it hits the ground!! Check this out for soil condition http://www.flickr.com/photos/raeallen/5980875/ and this for vegetation http://www.griffith.edu.au/ins/collections/webb/html/19-91.html . What we consider as good soil is pretty crappy stuff compared to what you're used to as you can see.

Rick


----------



## bmth girl

rick01 said:


> Have you actually seen the Savannah plains where they come from? It's soil is nearly as crappy as the main area for Centrals and whilst they may have more vegetation this is a comparative term. It's mainly grassland with scattered scrub and trees, here's a link to the actual weather stats for Julie Creek which is the best I can do for Black Soil Beardies range. http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_029025.shtml Note the rainfall is only heavy for two months with high average temps at the same time and even then the humidity is low so it's disappearing almost before it hits the ground!! Check this out for soil condition http://www.flickr.com/photos/raeallen/5980875/ and this for vegetation http://www.griffith.edu.au/ins/collections/webb/html/19-91.html . What we consider as good soil is pretty crappy stuff compared to what you're used to as you can see.
> 
> Rick


Keep up the good work Rick :whistling2::whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:​


----------



## rick01

I try!!!

Rick


----------



## RENT-A-GOAT

Great information, I have just homed a pair of adult beardies and am in the process of getting a vivarium sorted out before they arrive in the next few weeks.


----------



## Simon M

*Great info *

Good information,

We have just introduced our new Bearded Dragons today to their new Viv. Its taken us a few days to complete and it looks great. 

This is a piccy of my hubby looking like he did all the work!! It was me! lol

I do use water bowl though and have always changed it daily. 

So far the Dragons have enjoyed their new home! Fingers crossed. I will upload onto my profile the completed Viv, for anyone who would lke a peek!!

Thanks Lucy x


----------



## angelsparadisecj

awesome thread! 

that set up is excellent, what did u use to make it?


----------



## krytes

*"Water is practically non-existent thus* *your dragon does not need or want swimming and drinking lessons as he lives happily without a constant water supply (in most areas – no water supply)*."

A nice warm bath can be beneficial to bearded dragons. Bearded dragons can dehydrate, can get constipated and can suffer with shedding problems. A warm bath can help in these circumstances. My beardies appreciate this. They do drink from it, it helps them relieve themselves from an uncomfortable shed etc. Infact, mine tap on the glass when they want a bath. My bosc does the same. I'm lucky to get a shower nowadays with all this demand for the bath room.
I'm sure the mortality rate in the wild is higher than in captivity.
Maybe we shouldn't supplement their food with calcium and vits. Maybe a visit to the vets is unnecessary, when my pets ill. After all they don't get this treatment in the wild.
Sod it. I think I'll go and live in a cardboard box.


----------



## rick01

What's your problem! This is an advisory thread which is designed to explain natural living conditions for P. vitticeps. and to show that you do not have to sit and worry when your dragon shows no interest in water.


> Sod it. I think I'll go and live in a cardboard box.


 Good idea.

Rick


----------



## krytes

rick01 said:


> What's your problem! This is an advisory thread which is designed to explain natural living conditions for P. vitticeps. and to show that you do not have to sit and worry when your dragon shows no interest in water.
> Good idea.
> 
> Rick


It's a joke and I have been homeless. It's not very nice. May be they don't have a sense of humour in your part of the world. May be it's the hot sun and lack of water. I wish we had some hot sun, it's freezing out. Sorry if I caused offence. Just trying to say that I think baths are beneficial and mine enjoy it. I thought the idea of this forum was to open discussions; Not purely to seek advice. I thought an internet forum was an online discussion site.
The information in the article it self is brilliant. The sort of thing I look for but rarely find presented already. However, the assertion at the end spoils it for me. It concludes with undertones that suggest the author has a problem with people that bathe their dragon. 
I have experienced situations where mine has become disinterested in water and turned out to be ill and dehydrated. Also I once got a bearded dragon that drank for 50 mins. when it arrived. With this in mind and other experiences that I have had, I find this topic interesting but I don't have 'a problem'. 
I don't ALWAYS buy in to the 'well this is how they live in the wild' mentality. I was eventually convinced by the sand or no sand argument. Then I had to deal with an impaction problem. Also, people debate whether or not a pet bearded dragon should be given a hide.
I have read an article which claims that most wild bearded dragons are lucky to live only to the age of one; That probably impaction and factors relating to the harsh environment contribute. Cats and dogs also live significantly longer and healthier lives when kept as pets with home comforts.
My 8 year old would like to point out that it is the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin wall and of the creation of Wallace and Gromit. He thinks that the wall might have been made of Wensleydale.


----------



## krytes

rick01 said:


> What's your problem! This is an advisory thread which is designed to explain natural living conditions for P. vitticeps. and to show that you do not have to sit and worry when your dragon shows no interest in water.
> Good idea.
> 
> Rick


I didn't realise that a sticky was not a place to try to spark discussion or debate. I am new to this site and have never used a forum. I have pm'd you and I hope your happy.


----------



## krytes

rick01 said:


> What's your problem! This is an advisory thread which is designed to explain natural living conditions for P. vitticeps. and to show that you do not have to sit and worry when your dragon shows no interest in water.
> Good idea.
> 
> Rick


In reference to your private message:

"Sticky threads are selected by moderators as informative threads generally accepted as good basic practice/information. This does not stop you from querying points or asking about variations in practice. However try looking at you posts from a recipient's point of view ( a tip given to me when I first entered the world of on-line forums). Without a couple of smilies and with what appeared as a sarcastic comment re nutrition, vet visits etc. your post was not (apparently) a friendly one. If you want to ask about the general use of water with dragons that's not a problem most of us will confirm that it is beneficial where a bad shed occurs, where dehydration is noted and wher suffering constipation, but this begs the point in regard to this mania for bathing regularly and giving drinking lessons. One doesn't expose humid tropics geckos to arid land type environments, similary one shouldn't expose an arid environment rep to potentially humid conditions. I hope this clears up what appeared to be your query, if not please feel free to ask for clarification."

I find you patronising. I was apologizing for inappropriately posting on a sticky and being polite and diplomatic in the process because your obviously sensitive and seeking notoriety. I think you exaggerate- 'MANIA', 'EXPOSURE TO POTENTIALLY HUMID CONDITIONS'. Wer'e talking about bathing a bearded dragon for a short while.
I didn't seek your guidance. I was not asking your advice.
It's not the first time. You've previously sought attention by threatening to leave this forum because people disagree with you:
"Fraid I've given up here, the moderators do nothing, most of the members seem more intent on argueing :devil: rather than debating and with probably only 1/2 dozen of you who will discuss things so that we can learn from each other I'm using my time on 3 other forums where I can really help newbies."
So don't patronise me. If I am reincarnated as a 13yr old girl then I will leave little smilies in my messages. In the meantime I will be my self.
Oh and since your so patronising; It is not difficult to cut and paste a few charts that someone else has collated then write a few sentences. I'd expect a 13 year old of average ability to be able to do that.
Oh, and make your mind up bath em or don't bath em.


----------



## hickman2342

lesleykno said:


> I feel i have read loads and are so excited i am getting my first baby beardie tomorrow. I do want to lower the temp at night and was thinking of 20oC. I will need to see what the breeder has done so i dont shock the dragon. Have you any advise on what salad you feed. I read turnip greens and squash are good. Any lettuce?


Any leafy greens are good, NO iceburg lettuce at all


----------



## aaron26

*Re; print???*

AWESOME THREAD IS IT OK 2 PRINT THIS???? 

just checkin incase of copyrights lol


----------



## CharlieBrown

Well, what a long read so far...
I have found the information helpfull. Our beardie should be with us sunday. I have spent the best part of 2 weeks looking up and finding information to keep her safe and well.
It is very clear that there is a lot of digression with what is best for your bearded dragon.
For me personally I plan to keep her to the same routine she has at her current home, to help her settle in better. Then after time if I feel anything needs to be addessed to, I may look in to it. But she has been happy and well for the past 6 months at her home and the 12 months before that with the same routine, so i dont look to change much!


----------



## mayb1day

Found this really informative and helpful, thanks!


----------



## silly grandma

fab info should be available to new and potential owners
i did research, but not every one looks before leaping.
all info is always welcome in my eyes
thanku :2thumb:


----------



## amiee*

*read*

my bearded dragon has not poop for a week i have give her baths it does not help plz help


----------



## egg80

great info on beardies is there any chance of a link to the info so i can post on a beardie forum i use as will be great info for all


----------



## Puff and Poppit

*Habitat and Water*

Thanks for this article. I am a new owner and this has clarified quite a bit. Seems shops are out to get more money than needsbe.:no1:


----------



## Mikazuki

Makes a lot of sense, I only give my dragons water once a week most, by running a tap over they're noses, i made the mistake of water bowls when i first got my dragons and as a result sunny died from a respiratory infection, poor guy wasnt even a year old, he had mites at the time so what with water available all day, the obvious slight humidity created by water and the fact i had to wash and pick mites off him every day for 6 weeks, he couldnt handle it. That is the last time I'll ever believe what i read in a book.


----------



## Mikazuki

amiee* said:


> my bearded dragon has not poop for a week i have give her baths it does not help plz help


Do you use warm water to help bowel movement? that usually works, if you can feel a solid mass in between her back legs, it could be a blockage, which would explain slight constipation.


----------



## gazandsaz

Absolutely mint thread. thanks to all who shared info(including those who conflicted) my new baby beardies and i salute you all!


----------



## Aconite

I found this thread really interesting. Thanks!
I got my beardie when he was about 5 months old. He had been kept without water and given a weekly bath. He was in great condition, had all his toes, good weight and alert and active. So it obviously worked for his breeder. 

But I have decided to keep him without water in the viv and I dont bath him or give him any water drops etc.
I have now had him for a few months and he has doubled in size, sheds perfectly each time and is very fat and active. 

I think everyone does things in different ways, but it is good to experiment a bit and take advice from the locals where the animals come from. 

It is very hard to get into the mindset of a country you have never visited and so it is hard to imagine life thriving in a place where there is no water, no humidity and not much plant life. But somehow it does. 
I think it is very important to look at the place the animal comes from and replicate it as much as possible. 

I am lucky in that I come from africa, so I have seen animals in places you could not imagine anything existing. 
The fact that an animal not only survives, but thrives, in this hostile climate indicates that it is designed to cope there and might actually struggle in an environment we think of as ideal. 

My beardie gets loads of water from his gut loaded locusts and his fresh veg. I think water in a bowl, or water in a bath, or drops on his nose would be overkill.


----------



## Kingkillclone

*Thank you*

very interesting article it has enlightened me a lot, when i brought my beardy i was given a massive hide and a huge water bowl, :bash: he does like to sleep in his cave though and he always comes out to bask, but i did wonder why he never drank much and he hates bathing so thank you i now know why!! :notworthy:


----------



## oliwilliams

well as all are different our 7 month beardie spends like an hour a day in a water bowl big enough to lie down in and gets a warm bath once a week sure she is a water dragon cross1:lol2:


----------



## lady medusa

great post, i worked in a reptile shop that never kept water in the vivs & all the beardys were fine with that, i do keep a little water in with my babies, but they get most of their water from their veggys.


----------



## Faceman

great thread. I am extremely new and green to keeping a beardy. Only had him 2 months, that is certainly something to bear in mind, I bought this huge Exo-Terra water dish that does take up considerable room I'll be off to the shop tomorrow to buy a smaller more adaquate dish. 

Cheers!


----------



## Will-2k9

Aconite said:


> I found this thread really interesting. Thanks!
> I got my beardie when he was about 5 months old. He had been kept without water and given a weekly bath. He was in great condition, had all his toes, good weight and alert and active. So it obviously worked for his breeder.
> 
> But I have decided to keep him without water in the viv and I dont bath him or give him any water drops etc.
> I have now had him for a few months and he has doubled in size, sheds perfectly each time and is very fat and active.
> 
> I think everyone does things in different ways, but it is good to experiment a bit and take advice from the locals where the animals come from.
> 
> It is very hard to get into the mindset of a country you have never visited and so it is hard to imagine life thriving in a place where there is no water, no humidity and not much plant life. But somehow it does.
> I think it is very important to look at the place the animal comes from and replicate it as much as possible.
> 
> I am lucky in that I come from africa, so I have seen animals in places you could not imagine anything existing.
> The fact that an animal not only survives, but thrives, in this hostile climate indicates that it is designed to cope there and might actually struggle in an environment we think of as ideal.
> 
> My beardie gets loads of water from his gut loaded locusts and his fresh veg. I think water in a bowl, or water in a bath, or drops on his nose would be overkill.


Exactly, i dont give my beardie water either, just the odd bath when he gets dirty and he's fine... The crickets drink enough water to ensure there nice and packed with water for him. Iv always tried to make his lifestyle the same as it would be in the deserts although that is hard due to the fact im english and we have a lot more humid climate. I still try and replicate it as much as possible, because after-all that is why they live there and there designed to live there. 

Changing that would be like us trying to live on mars or something.


----------



## dexterslab

Just read through every page from the start, glad I did!.

I, like a couple of others have said, am going to reduce the size of the water bowl (it was in the cold end anyway right in the corner but is pretty damn big) after reading this thread. I would take it out but his prey loves drinking from the bowl which is a major plus as the beardies will then get that water.

There is mis-leading conflicting information all over the place and everybody has their own opinions and ways but this thread here makes complete sense to be honest, so their lives are going to be slightly changed, for the better :2thumb:

Much Appreciated!


----------



## pezza

Fantastic thread :2thumb:


----------



## julie king

*bathing babies*

i bathe my dragons at least once a week as they seem to enjoy it. i also always leave a shallow dish of fresh water just in case, i have only twice seen them drnk out of it. 





sparkle said:


> excellent thanks x
> 
> 
> i also advise not to use a hide.. but to build up rocks or java woods to form climbing and shade where there is stil heat..
> 
> I was once told a baby beardie had to have a hide on t thread from a newbie scared their beardie was hiding in its hide al day not eating or basking....and a mod delted my post saying it could be detremental to the baby as it would hide if it was scared and then go too cool to be active..
> 
> im glad theres some sense being made of this now
> 
> i also dont bathe my beardies or have a water bowl in all the time
> 
> they have fresh blueberries and other types of fruits and vege sprayed with water daily so they intake that way and twice a week i pop a water bowl in for a few hours to allow them to drink if needs be
> 
> I only bathe my beardies IF they have managed to get dirty from any poop in their vivs before i have spot cleaned.. but its not a regular occurance
> 
> I guess everyone has their own way... and some work whilst some dont..


----------



## fuzzzzbuzzzz

Thanks


----------



## Skunk

Aconite said:


> The fact that an animal not only survives, but thrives, in this hostile climate indicates that it is designed to cope there and might actually struggle in an environment we think of as ideal.


Couldn't agree more!


----------



## Daíthí

My first post here guys. Just wanted to say that the OP was a great read. Over the last year or so, I've managed to persuade a few people away from loose substrates. I always looked at it and thought, "Why take even the slightest risk of impaction?" My two beardies are both kept on sandstone tiles, which I thought was the closest to what they'd be on in their natural environment, the original post made me feel even more confident with that choice.


----------



## codex82

this thread is possibly the best advise ive read. i had bin lookin to get a waterfall in 1 corner of the viv, but that'll now be scraped and it's more room for my Bd when i get 1.

cheers guys!


----------



## Skunk

No problem  Really glad that you found it useful  x


----------



## Snakeskin74

What a lot of good information, i got my first beardie today he is a 3 year old yellow morph, and the owners said he loves baths, they also left live food in with him, which i know to be wrong. I thought as he loves baths, that a big dog bowl full of water would be good for him so he could bath him self when he wants...... HOW WRONG WAS I..... i am taking it out now. I still dont know what i should do about temps at night, im using a 60w bulb for basking and a heat mat in a 4x2x2 viv ive got temps of 30c in the middle, i think i mite turn off the mat cos the basking spot will still be really hot just the rest of the viv will be cooler. I will have to experiment :whistling2:


----------



## rick01

Our overnight temps can drop below 10C so as long as your night time temps are around 16C then you won't require any heating at all. Remember that daytime will require a basking spot temp around 39C with a cool side 25C+ and dump the heat mat unless you have it where your dragon can't burn his belly ! Dragons don't feel heat through the belly very well and have been known to get serious burns through sitting on a faulty heat mat.

Rick


----------



## dragooner

cool thread!!!


----------



## Cam1

*Re: Hi.*

How much money do bearded dragons cost a week to feed ?


----------



## Ravage

Great post was inresting


----------



## tracy

*bearded dragons*

Hi one of my beadies has just shed and ive noticed a spot left after she shed is that strange.


----------



## hayleee

ahhhh! my newly dicovered bible, i've only had my beardie for about a month, no wonder he doesnt like baths! but he does like a play in his water bowl, so i think i'll be leaving that where it is! lol


----------



## thehippriest

An excellent post that advocates the replication of beardies antural environment. I'v enever bathed my as they're not amphibious, and never bothered with a water bowl. they get a light spray once a fourtnight (weekly if they're not eating greens) and have always loved that, they either lick it off their nose or off the viv wall as it runs down.

It's interesting to see, despite this artical, that many people still advocate bathing beardies extremely no uncertain terms 'should do this and should do that'.

The idea of putting them in a bath where they will drink water that has been sitting in copper hot water pipes is worrying to me.


----------



## Industrial

Yeah! never bathe mine also. Strange why people still feel the need to do so when all our beardies shed fine & haven't died of thirst or constipation..... but if it says do so in a caresheet then surely one must.


----------



## Crab Man

thehippriest said:


> An excellent post that advocates the replication of beardies antural environment. I'v enever bathed my as they're not amphibious, and never bothered with a water bowl. they get a light spray once a fourtnight (weekly if they're not eating greens) and have always loved that, they either lick it off their nose or off the viv wall as it runs down.
> 
> It's interesting to see, despite this artical, that many people still advocate bathing beardies extremely no uncertain terms 'should do this and should do that'.
> 
> The idea of putting them in a bath where they will drink water that has been sitting in copper hot water pipes is worrying to me.


I see sense in the occational light misting. I was in Oz a few years back and drove pretty much straight through the beardies' natural strongholds, and I noticed morning dew on the ground. Didn't take long for it to disappear though as soon as the sun was up.
What I wonder, though, is what water people use. Surely British tap water is too full of God-knows-what to be ideal. Bottled spring water?


----------



## Industrial

Crab Man said:


> I see sense in the occational light misting. I was in Oz a few years back and drove pretty much straight through the beardies' natural strongholds, and I noticed morning dew on the ground. Didn't take long for it to disappear though as soon as the sun was up.
> What I wonder, though, is what water people use. Surely British tap water is too full of God-knows-what to be ideal. Bottled spring water?


Yeah I agree with a light misting on young dragons as they could dehydrate quickly but not on older ones.


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## Cam1

you should bath beardies to keep them clean.
if you didnt wash your beardies they would smell like shit.


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## thehippriest

Don't be silly, that's just not true


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## rick01

Cam1 said:


> you should bath beardies to keep them clean.
> if you didnt wash your beardies they would smell like shit.


... and if you kept your viv clean that wouldn't happen.

Rick


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## Industrial

Cam1 said:


> you should bath beardies to keep them clean.
> if you didnt wash your beardies they would smell like shit.


So by that remark every lizard should be bathed........ Don't be ridiculous.
And for the record my beardie doesn't stink.


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## Industrial

rick01 said:


> ... and if you kept your viv clean that wouldn't happen.
> 
> Rick


You should know Rick, if you say anything that's not written in a caresheet you will get jumped upon.


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## rick01

Industrial said:


> You should know Rick, if you say anything that's not written in a caresheet you will get jumped upon.


And if you have the temerity to be an Australian commenting on Australian fauna it's even worse :lol2:

Rick


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## wildheart

Just for interest sake, both my dragons absolutely *LOVES* water. They get into the shower by themselves, swim around and pop out. They do not like bathing! 

They smack their lips when they are thirsty and I then take them and they drink straight from the kitchen tap, usually every second day or so. 

While outside - I live in South Africa - they run for the sprinklers when ever I switch it on. If I dont switch it on then they will simply dive into the salt water swimming pool - giving me a heart attack! To stop this silly behavior I've bought them each their own swimming pool witch they use to cool off in when it gets too hot outside. 

I've had them now for 8 years and both roam free in the herb garden and in the house - they have ladders to get in and out of their separate cages. They come inside from outside all by themselves and go out again when ever they please. 

I know this is hard to imagine but this is the life of my dragons, they are free and their cages are only beds to them. 

And I have to say that I truly feel deeply sorry for all the dragons who are out there that never even get to play and become dirty. 


This is the area where I used to put the sprinklers on for them - before I bought their swimming pools:
Sky:








River:









I just finished planting seed in my herb garden and switched the sprinklers on. When Sky saw it he ran and swam my seeds right out of the ground again! 

















Sky jumping in the pool because I took to long to put the sprinklers on:









Their Christmas presents, both love swimming through the tunnels and then clime out to bask on top of the tunnels:

























I can fill a whole forum with pictures of them playing outside and swimming. 
I'll ask my husband to record us when they drink from the tap so that you can see an example. 

So, let them play, let them swim, let them get filthy dirty outside, take them shopping, take them on holiday - they love the beach and blends in 100% with the sea sand - most of all let them bask in the sun. In return you will have active dragons who never just sit in one spot all day dying of boredom. Your dragons will LOVE you and you will battle to put them down - they will just clime back up your hand or up your leg. Your dragons will follow you all over the house and they will live a long, HAPPY and fulfilled life.

Just remember one thing, just because they love water it does not mean you must put excess amounts of water in their cages. They have difficulty breathing in a closed up humid environment. Not one of my dragons come close to their water bowls in their cages - it must be water coming from the top like rain water otherwise they dont care about it.


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## colin1

*Newbies!!*

I am relatively new with beardies, and found t thread very informing but what wasnt said was the 'positives' of bathing from which i have picked up from a few sites and through trial and error found for my self. For starters i have 2 beardies. around 6mth old. sex ????? i know b4 ppl start i may have to split but everything going good up to now----touch wood!!! 1 beardy i can do whatever with it- so laid back, etc.. the other still a bit skittish. Bathing- the laid back 1 loves it. the other hates it. I been told it keeps them from becoming fat which is self explanatry and the other helps them excrete!!!(poop) the answer is i think - each 1 is different so i bathe 1 more than the other simple. :2thumb: is there any negatives with bathing the beardies???


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## rick01

_"I been told it keeps them from becoming fat which is self explanatry and the other helps them excrete!!!"_
If it kept fat off then diets wouldn't be needed! Bathing does assist excretion but should only be used where a dragon is constipated and the dangers/negative side is simpy that they can easily contract respiratory tract diseases from excess moisture given that they prefer a humidity level around 40%.

Rick


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## HadesDragons

Following on from what Rick said, it may help stop them becoming fat and it may help them go to the toilet... however if you're keeping them properly they're unlikely to need any help at all to do either of those things!

A correct diet and a sufficiently-sized cage should be enough to stop them getting fat.

Correct food, a "safe" substrate and correct temperatures should mean they can go to the toilet unaided.

Remember in the wild they don't have access to water to swim in, and manage to avoid becoming fat. They also manage to go to the toilet, shed their skin, not stink of feces and do/avoid just about everything else that people have suggested baths are "vital" to ensure/prevent from happening (delete as appropriate... :whistling2

I think the bottom line is that beardies have spent millions of years evolving to cope without a great deal of water. Some "evolutionary" change may have inadvertantly occurred in those lines which adapted to captive life, but they've not been captive long enough, nor has their been sufficient selective pressure, for captive beardies to "require" baths. 

If they're kept correctly, in a way which mimics their natural habitat, they should rarely - if ever - need baths.


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## rudy691

very good read !


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## Dragonfly99

*Should i leave my bearded dragons lights on if im away for 30 hours?*

Hi i really need some advice pretty quickly ... i know how to look after my bearded dragon... but i have to go away overnight as my relative died so going to need to leave him for about 30-40 hours :s would it be ok to leave his lights on for this time and put like a shoe box type thing on the cool side so he can sleep in dark? im going to sort stuff out so i can be prepared next time something like this comes up i just didnt think about it :/ ..... sorry how much this doesnt work with this thread but its the closest thing i could find


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## rick01

If it's only 30~40 hours then just leave the lights/heating off as you would do overnight - he'll just think it's an overcast day and sleep. We do get the occasional bad day over here at times!

Rick


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## lazydog

timers are cheap!
so no need to leave lights on


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## graeme84

*info needed?*

hi new till the forums. im getting to bearded dragons tommorrow 1male 1female breeding pair. just wondering whats best for them. any help is more than welcome.


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## rudy691

just check the newbie section mate  lots of info there


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## zero

hi i am a newbie and this is a brilliant information source. We are trying to find out as much information on beardies. before we buy one and how to have the set up thankyou for sharing


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## krisg10

can any one help me iv just wake and cheack on my baby beadie dregon and it gone a funny brown colour i dont no what to d


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## reptilerossy

*Water*

Brilliant article, couldn't have explained their habitat any better. Ive seen so much conflicting information about water bowls. I would just say it's personal preference. If you have a beady that likes drinking water then give it water. Mine don't though and I think they do just fine getting moisture from their food.


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## Toma

Most of the OP is very useful when looking to recreate the Bredl's carpet pythons natural habitat as well. Might be worth puting some of the photos in the in the natural habitats sticky in the Habitats section? Thanks for the post!:2thumb:


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## aurora24

my beautiful beardie pheonix, has a large water bowl as i had to get a bigger one cos she lays in it everyday, she also has a bath every couple of weeks more so if shedding and she LOVES the water, i did get advice about it after reading numerous articles and care sheets and there is nothing wrong with this!


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## aurora24

krisg10 said:


> can any one help me iv just wake and cheack on my baby beadie dregon and it gone a funny brown colour i dont no what to d


 
mine has always changed colour different shades of brown n yellow, could be ready for a shed,


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## krytes

HadesDragons said:


> Following on from what Rick said, it may help stop them becoming fat and it may help them go to the toilet... however if you're keeping them properly they're unlikely to need any help at all to do either of those things!
> 
> A correct diet and a sufficiently-sized cage should be enough to stop them getting fat.
> 
> Correct food, a "safe" substrate and correct temperatures should mean they can go to the toilet unaided.
> 
> Remember in the wild they don't have access to water to swim in, and manage to avoid becoming fat. They also manage to go to the toilet, shed their skin, not stink of feces and do/avoid just about everything else that people have suggested baths are "vital" to ensure/prevent from happening (delete as appropriate... :whistling2
> 
> I think the bottom line is that beardies have spent millions of years evolving to cope without a great deal of water. Some "evolutionary" change may have inadvertantly occurred in those lines which adapted to captive life, but they've not been captive long enough, nor has their been sufficient selective pressure, for captive beardies to "require" baths.
> 
> If they're kept correctly, in a way which mimics their natural habitat, they should rarely - if ever - need baths.


You could say the same for humans. lol. 
I have read that in the wild, a bearded dragon is lucky if it exceeds one year old. I think that wild heart's photo's and description kind of show that beardies can afford themselves the comparative luxury of access to water and live beyond the average number of years. The evidence is there. The OP is flawed on several levels and I find it a shame that it is being presented as absolute fact rather than a perspective that is open for discussion.


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## Linkj93

Thats really cool, verry good information, reaserched allot.


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## atnas666

love this thread


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## Lady J

Hi,My bearded dragons have been in brumation for about 6 weeks,now one -Rocket-runs around the room climbing over everything,back to the viv for a few minutes then of round the room again shes pulled all her plants down in the viv and keeps digging then of round the room again,this has been going on for a few weeks and she wont eat,she is about 4 years old and weighs 500g( 1lb 1oz) she seems healthy and sleeps ok.
The other dragon ,Georgie,is about 3 years old,she weighs in at 515g (1lb 3oz) and hasn't really come around since brumating,I put her back in the viv cause she was hiding in a box in the lounge,she just wants to lay down and kip,she seems healthy and has eaten 1 locust a few days ago,that's the first eat in about 2 months.
Is there a reason why Rocket wont settle?? and is there a reason why Georgie has lost her umph?? Any advice would be gladly welcome thank you.
Lady J.


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## Emsylove

i am only 12 and i have a family beardie he is 7 and comes out every day to play i love him and think this is a great peice of info:no1:


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## Lady J

*Golly gosh*

I didn't think they lived that long,is your dragon still running about or do they slow down a bit at that age,one of mine (4 years old)is so curios she gets into every thing and anything that's on the floor,she was in a shoe yesterday!the other one(3 years old) prefers to stay in her viv and sun herself all day.


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## Fire and Ice Dragons

A few years ago, Dr. Roger Klingenberg, DMV (author of Understanding Reptile Parasites and a well-known expert on reptiles) was the guest speaker at a show here in the US. I asked what the #1 cause of untimely death in a Bearded Dragon was. Much to my surprise his answer was, "Renal Failure from long term dehydration." 

Keep in mind that bearded dragons do not live in Sahara-like conditions. The Red Center in Australia is more rocky than sandy. The Dragons go into burrows where it is cool and moist during the heat of the day and also at night. With the ability to absorb some fluid from their environment, this helps the dragons handle the dry heat. However, this method of survival cannot supply ALL of the fluids necessary. 

It has been my experience that Dragons do not get enough moisture from greens and vegetables, either. We soak our dragons twice a week and offer dripped water every night. They all seem to have their own preference for when and how they like to drink. Best to vary the options, so your dragon can choose what is right for him or her. 

If you want to know if your dragon is well hydrated, look at the skin on its sides. If you see folds of skin, it is in need of fluids. The eyes are another way to tell. Dehydrated dragons can have a sleepy eyed look with the lids half-closed. 

Terri


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## darcydoo

I dont often post on these sites and this thread is the exact reason why.

Firstly, I cant comment on whether you should put water in your beardie(s) viv. I dont know how you keep your beadie(s), but thats the whole point. Hot spot of 30C? Hot spot of 38C? Viv length? Room temp? Room RH%? Vigour of beardie? attitude of beardie? All of these factors (and many more) will affect whether you need water in your viv. Its the owners responsibility to gather as much information as they can about the possible outcomes of their actions and, through observation of their animal, react accordingly. 

Right, to start. The intro of this thread refers to the posted segment as an article. Where exactly was this article published? In a journal? Paper? If someone could point me in the direction it'd be muchly appreciated. I ask because, as far as I know, plagiarism isnt smiled upon in the 'real' science world. Yet the first paragraph of the "article" is clearly exactly that. Sentences have been cut and pasted from the 'assuie defra' website on a topic completely unrelated to the husbandry of .....well anything...its called... 'Sustainability in Australia's arid lands'. This article, amusingly, also refers to heavy rain! So on the grounds of a lack of proper ref's this "article" should be questioned!

Delving in to the following pseudo-science.... ( I encourage you to open the original post now in a 'new/different tab' so you can cut back and forth between the original post and my comments!!)

First map- gives the range, probably quite right, no reason to doubt it. 

Second map- ???... its Australia 

Third map- Rain fall over the given population range is quite low for half of the year, what about the other half of the year?? I only ask because.....

Fourth map- Its really hot, a mean max of 33C!!! lots of red!!!.... but thats a mean max isnt it? The average of the maximum temp recorded each day? England could conceivably, probably has, had a mean max of 30C during a month is hot summer? Its not the actual average (mean) temp is it?

Fifth chart- okay, alice springs is used. The First map states the population range is approx ~600m long (I used google maps and measured using my finger nail to produce that figure). The distance from Southampton to Glasgow is ~200m (same method as above), is there a suggestion that those two cities share the same climate? Hope not. The temp we're asked to focus on is the mean low of 15.8C. Weather stations record the air temp at 6' above ground level dont they? The temps underground (inhabited by beadies at night), and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that soil carries a degree of thermal mass making the temp in the burrow very unlikely to be anywhere near as low as the air temp @6' high as recorded by weather station. In short, the figure of 15.8C would be relevant if discussing a poikilothermic species....but a species that utilises its environment!? The figure 15.8 doesnt appear to hold any relevance now.

Sixth chart- see comments of fifth chart

Seventh chart- again, see above.

Pretty pic 1- pretty.

I implore you to question any data you are being given. I hope I've proved by doing this that this data is far from flawless, its often twisted to suit argument, but incorrect.


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## HadesDragons

darcydoo said:


> Firstly, I cant comment on whether you should put water in your beardie(s) viv. I dont know how you keep your beadie(s), but thats the whole point. Hot spot of 30C? Hot spot of 38C? Viv length? Room temp? Room RH%? Vigour of beardie? attitude of beardie? All of these factors (and many more) will affect whether you need water in your viv. Its the owners responsibility to gather as much information as they can about the possible outcomes of their actions and, through observation of their animal, react accordingly.


I think you may have missed the last sentence of the "article"(/"page"/"rambling"/"string of words and photos" etc etc): "*Only one other item and that is a small bowl of water* – although your dragon will almost certainly never drink, if the occasion arises that he feels dehydrated, water is available to him."

You'd have to double check with Rick, the author, but my understanding is that he's opposed to the (thankfully-now-some-what-quieter) brigade of people who were suggesting on various forums at the time that beardies couldn't possibly poo/shed/breed/survive etc without at least a daily bath. As far as I'm aware that was his original intention when writing the article, given that he explicitly states that - in his opinion - a beardie *should* have water available to it at all times. I don't think he ever set out to suggest that beardies be denied all access to water...

Judging by the responses on here, it would seem that a lot of new keepers have found the "writing" interesting - it gives an insight into the type of conditions that a member of the species they keep might find in its native range. Forgive me if I've missed it, but I don't believe it says anywhere that beardies will *all* encounter these conditions... just that the ones who do encounter them not only survive, but thrive.



darcydoo said:


> Right, to start. The intro of this thread refers to the posted segment as an article. Where exactly was this article published? In a journal? Paper? If someone could point me in the direction it'd be muchly appreciated. I ask because, as far as I know, plagiarism isnt smiled upon in the 'real' science world. Yet the first paragraph of the "article" is clearly exactly that. Sentences have been cut and pasted from the 'assuie defra' website on a topic completely unrelated to the husbandry of .....well anything...its called... 'Sustainability in Australia's arid lands'. This article, amusingly, also refers to heavy rain! So on the grounds of a lack of proper ref's this "article" should be questioned!


Again, you'd have to check with Rick where it was *originally* published - I saw it on another forum and asked him for permission to repost it here, along with on my website. If we were being pedantic, you could say that having the "writing" published with permission on an independent website relating to the subject qualifies it to be an "article" (there's no scientific-ness implied in the term "article") Dictionary.com (feel free to find a more "scientific" definition source if needed - just be careful it isn't a university website defining "article" in the context of science-based undergrads, in which case the definition is not usually a broad one) defines it as: "*–noun* 1. a written composition in prose, usually nonfiction, on a specific topic, forming an independent part of a book or other publication" As above, I'd consider a website to fall into the bracket of an "other publication", so I'll now refer to it as an "article" from here on in. 

Interestingly, this thread was created by myself and "stuck" by the mod team before I became a moderator on RFUK, meaning it was the management of the site at the time - not the original author, nor the person who posted it to the site (me) - who decided it was worthy of being "featured" (another keyword in many definitions of "article") by virtue of being "stuck" in this section. Moving on...



darcydoo said:


> Third map- Rain fall over the given population range is quite low for half of the year, what about the other half of the year?? I only ask because.....


Take a look at something like: Wells, R. W. (1971), 'Hibernation - Bearded Dragons', _Herpetofauna_, 3(1):4-6. 

In nature, beardies hibernate for a good proportion of the year. The period of the rainfall map covers the majority of their "active" season. I (and I guess the author as well, given his choice of figures) would consider rainfall outside of the main period of activity to be less important when looking at natural water availability, as the beardies are asleep - underground, under rocks, tucked in cracks or crevices etc. Even if they did have a large amount of rain outside of the period shown on the map, for 6 months of the year the majority of their range experiences less than 100mm rainfall, some under 25mm (which - according to the "*Aussie* DEFRA" website - is "highly erratic" and may come in "flooding deluges"). I would suggest that that shows an ability to survive for a prolonged period on a minimal "liquid" water intake, which seems to be one of the themes of the article...?



darcydoo said:


> Fourth map- Its really hot, a mean max of 33C!!! lots of red!!!.... but thats a mean max isnt it? The average of the maximum temp recorded each day? England could conceivably, probably has, had a mean max of 30C during a month is hot summer? Its not the actual average (mean) temp is it?


There's quite a difference between a mean max of 30C (and I've no doubt that somewhere in England will have shown that at some point), and the mean max of 36-39C shown on the map for the majority of their range. Remember that's for a 6 month period as well - not an isolated month during a hot summer... 

Looking at the fifth and sixth charts chart, you can see that the temperature is regularly reaching the mid-high 20s and even the 30s by 9am. It's then generally even hotter by 3pm. Unless there's some bizarre temperature anomoly going on whereby temperatures are spiking at 9am, then falling, then spiking at 3pm, to me this suggests that that area of Australia has high temperatures for a large proportion of the day. It's certainly not a case of it being generally cool with the occasional spike throwing off the mean maxes.

Looking at something more scientific, such as Schauble, C. S. & Grigg, G. C. ( 1998 ), 'Thermal ecology of the Australian agamid, Pogona barbata' _Oecologia_, 114:461-470. (it's a very closely related species - close enough to interbreed - with a similar range which does overlap in places) , you can see a list of min, max and mean body temperatures for thermoregulating wild male animals. Sadly I don't think a comparable study exists for _P. vitticeps_. For the summer, mean Tmax is 42.1C (SE 1.7C) and mean Tmin is 32.2C (SE 1.0C). For autumn, mean Tmax is 31.7C (SE 1.2C) and mean Tmin is 26.4C (SE 0.5C). Those wild temperature readings (especially the mean Tmins) would - in my opinion - support the implied conclusion that it's rather hot for rather a lot of the time. Again, not just isolated anomalous spikes throwing off the mean maxes from the chart.



darcydoo said:


> Fifth chart- okay, alice springs is used. The First map states the population range is approx ~600m long (I used google maps and measured using my finger nail to produce that figure). The distance from Southampton to Glasgow is ~200m (same method as above), is there a suggestion that those two cities share the same climate? Hope not.


It's a good point about the size and variation of the range though - as can be seen from the temperature and rainfall maps at the top, there is variation. It's a huge range that they cover. If we were able to go out an procure wild specimens from a certain part of the range, something generalistic such as this wouldn't be so helpful - you'd need to look at the local conditions where your specimen came from. It would make evolutionary sense that there are adaptations to local microclimates within any individual population in that range. 

However, given that the original captive stock of beardies came from various sites within the range, I would imagine that any stark and specific adaptations have become "diluted" by cross breeding to beardies from different parts of the range. The typical beardie from a pet store is an "averaged" beardie, comprising genes originating from all over the wild range. I would argue that it's unlikely that any dramatic adaptations to a local climatic oddity remain in the captive UK population. There probably aren't any "pure" beardies left whose ancestors hailed from the cooler, wetter extreme south of the range, for instance. 

There may well be beardies in the south who require more water and prefer to operate at a cooler temperature, but I doubt you'd find any "pure" examples of them here. Firstly, many would have failed to thrive when initially brought over, especially if kept according to the "general" beardie style. Secondly - as above - the "extremeness" would have been bred out of them, unless a keeper was specifically trying to keep a "pure" local bloodline going in captivity.



darcydoo said:


> The temp we're asked to focus on is the mean low of 15.8C. Weather stations record the air temp at 6' above ground level dont they? The temps underground (inhabited by beadies at night), and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that soil carries a degree of thermal mass making the temp in the burrow very unlikely to be anywhere near as low as the air temp @6' high as recorded by weather station. In short, the figure of 15.8C would be relevant if discussing a poikilothermic species....but a species that utilises its environment!? The figure 15.8 doesnt appear to hold any relevance now.


I'm afraid I've not been able to find any specific papers relating to the themal capacity and heat retention properties of soil (or rocks/crevices/drainpipes/corrugated sheets/pool filter housings etc) - it's not really my area of expertise, which means this next bit is entirely anecdotal.

If you've ever been to a desert area and tried digging there - either a pit to bury food waste in, a latrine pit, a building foundation etc etc - you'll notice that first foot or so of the ground is fairly warm at the end of the day. Beyond that it's pretty chilly, even just as the sun sets (if you ever want to cool off in a desert, lie in a freshly-dug trench!) By morning the ground is cold - both on the surface and also down a foot or so. There's undoubtedly some heat retention there, but - in my experience - it doesn't retain heat throughout the whole night. 

My understanding is that a poikilothermic animal is one whose internal temperature varies along with the ambient environmental temperature. A beardie meets that description. They could be described as showing some characteristics of attempted behavioural homeothermy (in that they'll bask, then seek shade etc to minimise internal temperature change, even when the environmental temperature is changing, along with seeking out sun-warmed rocks, possibly burrows, etc to keep their body temperature as desirable as possible for as along as possible), but at the end of the day they are poikilothermic - they are unable to generate sufficient internal heat to maintain a constant body temperature regardless of the external environmental temperature...



darcydoo said:


> I implore you to question any data you are being given. I hope I've proved by doing this that this data is far from flawless, its often twisted to suit argument, but incorrect.



Hopefully that patches up some of the perceived "flaws" in the choice and presentation of the data. If not, you'd have to speak to the author for clarification on why he chose the specific figures etc that he did. My arguments above are just my interpretation of the argument put forward in the original piece by the author, and the logic/references that I personally used when deciding that I agreed with the underlying message and conclusions of the piece : victory:

Perhaps if you posted more often on sites such as these, you'd be able to instigate more "scientific" discussions, and questioning of data etc. Surely that can only be a good thing?


----------



## darcydoo

HadesDragons said:


> I think you may have missed the last sentence of the "article"(/"page"/"rambling"/"string of words and photos" etc etc): "*Only one other item and that is a small bowl of water* – although your dragon will almost certainly never drink, if the occasion arises that he feels dehydrated, water is available to him."


Nope, I didnt miss it. I saw it.



HadesDragons said:


> You'd have to double check with Rick, the author,


I'd like to, I'm finding discussing the "article" with a "representative" slightly awkward if I'm honest. 



HadesDragons said:


> but my understanding is that he's opposed to the (thankfully-now-some-what-quieter) brigade of people who were suggesting on various forums at the time that beardies couldn't possibly poo/shed/breed/survive etc without at least a daily bath.


I've no idea if anyone has claimed or said that beardies should be bathed daily (I havent time to trawl the site to prove or disprove this).



HadesDragons said:


> Judging by the responses on here, it would seem that a lot of new keepers have found the "writing" interesting - it gives an insight into the type of conditions that a member of the species they keep might find in its native range. Forgive me if I've missed it, but I don't believe it says anywhere that beardies will *all* encounter these conditions... just that the ones who do encounter them not only survive, but thrive.


Thats my exact concern. What you appear to be attempting to do is claim that; in actual fact; the "article" gives no specific advice. I didnt read it that way at all. I saw; *heat=good, moisture=bad.* (I used a bit of bold in open text there, I see you like it) 



HadesDragons said:


> Again, you'd have to check with Rick where it was *originally* published -


Again, I'd feel more comfortable with that, but it is what it is...



HadesDragons said:


> I saw it on another forum and asked him for permission to repost it here, along with on my website. If we were being pedantic, you could say that having the "writing" published with permission on an independent website relating to the subject qualifies it to be an "article" (there's no scientific-ness implied in the term "article")


This is a flat-out disagreement, I'm afraid. I think your intro implies this is something other than it actually is. I dont think I'm being pedantic at all. I've asked you, as the "representative", where this article is published? 




HadesDragons said:


> Dictionary.com (feel free to find a more "scientific" definition source if needed - just be careful it isn't a university website defining "article" in the context of science-based undergrads, in which case the definition is not usually a broad one)


I'm not an undergrad fella, but nice try. I'm more than happy to qualify my opinions but you'll have to ask me directly and not insinuate. 



HadesDragons said:


> defines it as: "*–noun* 1. a written composition in prose, usually nonfiction, on a specific topic, forming an independent part of a *book or other publication*" As above, I'd consider a website to fall into the bracket of an "other publication", so I'll now refer to it as an "article" from here on in.


A website cant really act as a 'book or other publication' as it isnt edited or reviewed by knowledgeable peers. That was my point. It isnt an article in the "pedantic" (or as those in the community call it- scientific) sense. What youre referring to above is the 'non-scientific' definition. Which is fine. That definition could be applied to 'Heat/OK' magazine couldnt it? Should I take that seriously? Following my explanation, if you still want to refer to it as an "article"...please do.



HadesDragons said:


> Interestingly, this thread was created by myself and "stuck" by the mod team before I became a moderator on RFUK, meaning it was the management of the site at the time - not the original author, nor the person who posted it to the site (me) - who decided it was worthy of being "featured" (another keyword in many definitions of "article") by virtue of being "stuck" in this section. Moving on...


Moving on....? To what? I dont understand what this paragraph means? Please explain. Are you insinuating that 'mods' shouldnt be questioned? 



HadesDragons said:


> Take a look at something like: Wells, R. W. (1971), 'Hibernation - Bearded Dragons', _Herpetofauna_, 3(1):4-6.
> 
> In nature, beardies hibernate for a good proportion of the year. The period of the rainfall map covers the majority of their "active" season. I (and I guess the author as well, given his choice of figures) would consider rainfall outside of the main period of activity to be less important when looking at natural water availability, as the beardies are asleep - underground, under rocks, tucked in cracks or crevices etc. Even if they did have a large amount of rain outside of the period shown on the map, for 6 months of the year the majority of their range experiences less than 100mm rainfall, some under 25mm (which - according to the "*Aussie* DEFRA" website - is "highly erratic" and may come in "flooding deluges"). I would suggest that that shows an ability to survive for a prolonged period on a minimal "liquid" water intake, which seems to be one of the themes of the article...?


I havent read that article, so cant comment on it. (see what I did there).



HadesDragons said:


> as the beardies are asleep - underground, under rocks, tucked in cracks or crevices etc


Plucked from the above paragraph. Beardies sleep...under rocks, tucked in cracks and crevices? What else do beardies do? They dig.... they dig burrows dont they? Correct me if I'm wrong but soil wont hold a burrow without moisture will it? Try digging in a hole in your sand pit during a heatwave if you dont believe me. So the above references to moisture exposure are flawed. 




HadesDragons said:


> There's quite a difference between a mean max of 30C (and I've no doubt that somewhere in England will have shown that at some point), and the mean max of 36-39C shown on the map for the majority of their range. Remember that's for a 6 month period as well - not an isolated month during a hot summer...


But why not show the mean temp? Why the mean max? Thats my point. Unless its supposed to be read, as I did it, *heat=good, moisture=bad. *Which to


HadesDragons said:


> it would seem that a lot of new keepers have found the "writing" interesting


 wouldnt be appropriate advice. (please refer to my opening gambit before replying to that, I dont want to get too dragged in to discussing husbandry, just the "original post") 



HadesDragons said:


> Looking at the fifth and sixth charts chart, you can see that the temperature is regularly reaching the mid-high 20s and even the 30s by 9am. It's then generally even hotter by 3pm. Unless there's some bizarre temperature anomoly going on whereby temperatures are spiking at 9am, then falling, then spiking at 3pm, to me this suggests that that area of Australia has high temperatures for a large proportion of the day. It's certainly not a case of it being generally cool with the occasional spike throwing off the mean maxes.


I dont understand what you mean by this. Spiking means peaking?



HadesDragons said:


> Looking at something more scientific, such as Schauble, C. S. & Grigg, G. C. ( 1998 ), 'Thermal ecology of the Australian agamid, Pogona barbata' _Oecologia_, 114:461-470. (it's a very closely related species - close enough to interbreed - with a similar range which does overlap in places) , you can see a list of min, max and mean body temperatures for thermoregulating wild male animals. Sadly I don't think a comparable study exists for _P. vitticeps_. For the summer, mean Tmax is 42.1C (SE 1.7C) and mean Tmin is 32.2C (SE 1.0C). For autumn, mean Tmax is 31.7C (SE 1.2C) and mean Tmin is 26.4C (SE 0.5C). Those wild temperature readings (especially the mean Tmins) would - in my opinion - support the implied conclusion that it's rather hot for rather a lot of the time. Again, not just isolated anomalous spikes throwing off the mean maxes from the chart.


I havent read the paper (see, thats different too) so cant comment. I'll endeavour to read it over the next couple of days! Youre right, they cant be compared as they arent the same species. 



HadesDragons said:


> It's a good point about the size and variation of the range though


 why thank you


HadesDragons said:


> - as can be seen from the temperature and rainfall maps at the top, there is variation. It's a huge range that they cover. If we were able to go out an procure wild specimens from a certain part of the range, something generalistic such as this wouldn't be so helpful - you'd need to look at the local conditions where your specimen came from. It would make evolutionary sense that there are adaptations to local microclimates within any individual population in that range.





HadesDragons said:


> However, given that the original captive stock of beardies came from various sites within the range, I would imagine that any stark and specific adaptations have become "diluted" by cross breeding to beardies from different parts of the range. The typical beardie from a pet store is an "averaged" beardie, comprising genes originating from all over the wild range. I would argue that it's unlikely that any dramatic adaptations to a local climatic oddity remain in the captive UK population. There probably aren't any "pure" beardies left whose ancestors hailed from the cooler, wetter extreme south of the range, for instance.
> 
> There may well be beardies in the south who require more water and prefer to operate at a cooler temperature, but I doubt you'd find any "pure" examples of them here. Firstly, many would have failed to thrive when initially brought over, especially if kept according to the "general" beardie style. Secondly - as above - the "extremeness" would have been bred out of them, unless a keeper was specifically trying to keep a "pure" local bloodline going in captivity.


This is where the 'old pseudoscience' comes back in. Where are the sites within the range? When where the 'descendants' collected? Which areas were paired with which area? How can we be sure there isnt a 'south locale'? (maybe I can try selling some as 'southies'!!) 

Back to being pedantic, there is only one species of beardies (being _P. vitticeps_, I am aware of other in the Pogona family). Therefore to cross a northen to a southern species would result in nothing other than a _P. vitticeps_. As far as I'm aware there are no phenotypical differences,. Youve already given a continuous population so I've no need to contest that. 



HadesDragons said:


> I'm afraid I've not been able to find any specific papers relating to the themal capacity and heat retention properties of soil (or rocks/crevices/drainpipes/corrugated sheets/pool filter housings etc) - it's not really my area of expertise, which means this next bit is entirely anecdotal.
> 
> If you've ever been to a desert area and tried digging there - either a pit to bury food waste in, a latrine pit, a building foundation etc etc - you'll notice that first foot or so of the ground is fairly warm at the end of the day. Beyond that it's pretty chilly, even just as the sun sets (if you ever want to cool off in a desert, lie in a freshly-dug trench!) By morning the ground is cold - both on the surface and also down a foot or so. There's undoubtedly some heat retention there, but - in my experience - it doesn't retain heat throughout the whole night. .


This is the weirdest claim I've heard in some time. ' bury food waste in, a latrine pit, a building foundation'. I assume youve done all with your bare hands to make such an assertion. How else would you you be able to assess soil temp?- I've never seen a spade with a thermometer attached- ....Hold on.... youve dug 'building foundations' in a desert with your bare hands?!.....thats hardcore mate!!!! Some would say just unbelievable.... 



HadesDragons said:


> My understanding is that a poikilothermic animal is one whose internal temperature varies along with the ambient environmental temperature. A beardie meets that description. They could be described as showing some characteristics of attempted behavioural homeothermy (in that they'll bask, then seek shade etc to minimise internal temperature change, even when the environmental temperature is changing, along with seeking out sun-warmed rocks, possibly burrows, etc to keep their body temperature as desirable as possible for as along as possible), but at the end of the day they are poikilothermic - they are unable to generate sufficient internal heat to maintain a constant body temperature regardless of the external environmental temperature...


No, you misunderstand. A poikilothermic species is one that survives in an environment that sustains its existence ie a moth, a fish. An exothermic speices utilises its environment in order to survive. Both are environment dependant but there is a subtle, some might say pedantic, but very real, difference. Hence my whole objection to the use of air temp. The air temp doesnt necessarily hold any closeness to the temp being experienced by the beardy 



HadesDragons said:


> Hopefully that patches up some of the perceived "flaws" in the choice and presentation of the data. If not, you'd have to speak to the author for clarification on why he chose the specific figures etc that he did. My arguments above are just my interpretation of the argument put forward in the original piece by the author, and the logic/references that I personally used when deciding that I agreed with the underlying message and conclusions of the piece : victory:
> 
> Perhaps if you posted more often on sites such as these, you'd be able to instigate more "scientific" discussions, and questioning of data etc. Surely that can only be a good thing?


I agree. It can only be a good thing. If I have time over the next few weeks maybe we can address some of my original points that you overlooked : victory:


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## Chrisuk33

intresting post 

however lets not forget that most beardies in the uk, where born in the uk and raised in the uk from breeders, rarely will you get a beardie that came from its orginal origin australia.

this example is shown when they examin different average life expectancies of the beardie living longer or shorder on average in captive breed and born and died in the wild.

i just think there should be known on the special differences from a ozzie bearded dragon vs a captive breed beardie because i beleive it can be detramental to treat it differently then its used to in capticvity.

it would be like dog Vs wolf, i would not get a dog from a breeder then treat it like a wolf having to hunt for its own food, right?


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## aurora24

Chrisuk33 said:


> intresting post
> 
> however lets not forget that most beardies in the uk, where born in the uk and raised in the uk from breeders, rarely will you get a beardie that came from its orginal origin australia.
> 
> this example is shown when they examin different average life expectancies of the beardie living longer or shorder on average in captive breed and born and died in the wild.
> 
> i just think there should be known on the special differences from a ozzie bearded dragon vs a captive breed beardie because i beleive it can be detramental to treat it differently then its used to in capticvity.
> 
> it would be like dog Vs wolf, i would not get a dog from a breeder then treat it like a wolf having to hunt for its own food, right?


exactly right!! every beardy u will get from a pet shop will have water in its enclosure because by law they have to, there for any babies bought from pet shops will be used to having a ready supply of water :2thumb:


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## Chrisuk33

aurora24 said:


> exactly right!! every beardy u will get from a pet shop will have water in its enclosure because by law they have to, there for any babies bought from pet shops will be used to having a ready supply of water :2thumb:


 yes your right, so because of this, it would be unfair to treat them any different when a person comes along a brings one home.

even if your a breeder who sells them, it would be unfair to start to try condistion them for the natural ozzie enviroment when there going to be captive as pets for the rest of there life, in the end we in the uk will have to treat our beardies the domesticated way.


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## s3xy_sheep

good info :2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:

i removed my beardies waterbowl completely over the winter ....... and have now replaced it with a small self pumping fountain that runs on 2 x AA batteries (£3.99 from me local garden centre) since this has gone in i have seen my beardie drinking a fair few times and the level reducing sometimes when have not seen him drink so prob drinkin more often than i think 

since the running fountain has gone in my beardie's appetite and toileting have increased and he seems more active has anyone else noticed anythin simmilar with running water ???


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## GeeUK

Gonna sit down and read this thread over the weekend.


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## bebaz

*beardy temps*

in response to the temp for beards. lots of threads on here say he needs temps of 100f -110f , which i have tried to get in his basking spot. 
but yesterday he was sick 3 half locusts so went to my local store to be told temps this high are not good.
so now I've set his basking spot at 35 c ( 95f ) and the cool side is 25 c.
will these temps still be ok for digestion ???
I'm new to beardys and don't know what to make of him being sick ( i mean i know its not good ) but should i just leave him with veg for a day or 2 then try locust again, an then panic !!!


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## imginy

bebaz said:


> in response to the temp for beards. lots of threads on here say he needs temps of 100f -110f , which i have tried to get in his basking spot.
> but yesterday he was sick 3 half locusts so went to my local store to be told temps this high are not good.
> so now I've set his basking spot at 35 c ( 95f ) and the cool side is 25 c.
> will these temps still be ok for digestion ???
> I'm new to beardys and don't know what to make of him being sick ( i mean i know its not good ) but should i just leave him with veg for a day or 2 then try locust again, an then panic !!!


Here check this website out it has everything you need to know and please believe top breeders over the petshops.
Caring for a Bearded Dragon - Hades Dragons UK
Sometimes when they eat to much too fast they can be sick but this would happen within an hour of eating.
If the food was from day before and hadn't been digested then something is badly wrong and its probably your basking temps too low.


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## KazzerK

What is the minimum size tank a bearded dragon can live in?


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## Azastral

Why have you brought back a thread that hasnt been active for years?

And then to ask a very simple question that has been answered multiple times in dozens of threads within the last few months?

Guessing you're a troll


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## KazzerK

NO I am NOT a troll.

I am new to the forum and to be honest it was late last night when I was looking at the forum after a very long day working as a community care worker.

I was thinking of getting a bearded dragon and yes I'm sure the question HAS been asked many times before BUT I couldn't find a sticky that answered the question after 10 minutes of looking (using only my mobile phone a to browse so not the biggest of screens).

Though I shouldn't have to justify why I asked what to many is a simple and maybe over asked question.

Being called a troll for asking a newbie to reptiles and this forum isn't the reply I expected from what I thought might be a friendly forum. Though that also doesn't seem to be the case.

Can I point out that these forums are supposed to help newbies and encourage people to make the right choices so they get a pet and housing for said pet somewhere near correct so that the animal as has good a life in captivity as possible.


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