# Long time out the game ready to come back with a BANG



## snakedon (Oct 4, 2010)

Hi All

I haven't been on here for a good couple of years, and i don't think iv ever posted in the amphibians section.

i used to keep and breed a fair few snakes until a couple of years back where i sold up and just kept the pride and joy.

im looking to get back into breeding of herps and i feel like taking a dive into the phibs

Never bred these before so im just after a bit of a point in the right direction. I.E. what are good starters and what your first where.

i was thinking going for basics like horned frogs and tree frogs, maybe red eyes. 

im not to keen on the dart frog scene.

so just a big hello really and a few hints and tips would be grateful.

P.S. im also after all sorts of tanks and terrariums, ill pay good cash but cant drive so would need delivered to Birmingham

Many thanks Guys

Ryan
Snakedon


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

snakedon said:


> Hi All
> 
> I haven't been on here for a good couple of years, and i don't think iv ever posted in the amphibians section.
> 
> ...


He he I best get in and out quick with a bloody warm welcome mate from a dart keeper:2thumb:

Good luck with your endevors Ryan, It'll be cool to read through some different species getting bred and pics thereof,we don't see nearly enough of other species being bred here.

bring it on

Stu


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## snakedon (Oct 4, 2010)

HaHa i have nothing against Dart frogs or there keepers:whistling2:

they just dont seem the thing for me. is it just dart frogs you keep?
there was one question i had about darts, how many eggs do they normally have, as you see that most other frogs have large clutches but i only tend to see very small dart frog clutches.

Thanks
Ryan


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## treefella (Dec 21, 2013)

Welcome this is a good place to be. Another dart frog keeper here :2thumb:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

snakedon said:


> HaHa i have nothing against Dart frogs or there keepers:whistling2:
> 
> they just dont seem the thing for me. is it just dart frogs you keep?
> there was one question i had about darts, how many eggs do they normally have, as you see that most other frogs have large clutches but i only tend to see very small dart frog clutches.
> ...


Yeah I got that mate:2thumb: Ryan just darts,I've kept other phibs as a kid and naturally have an interest wider than darts,but specialisng seemed the best way for us to go. With so many species of dart to choose from it works well for us.

Buddy,I'm simplifying this next bit somewhat. I think this is two fold in answer: darts have varing degrees of parental care,some species lay bigger clutches, tricolour trivitata spring to mind,but still only tens of eggs. These frog lay on land and the male guards the eggs,keeps them moist and then carries the tads to water. Some like oophaga lay smaller clutches and have very high parental care,mum carry's tads and then goes back and feeds her kids infertile eggs (that's all they will eat). Second up is size,some of these frogs are tiny,so I guess it's just not physically possible for them to lay big clutches,mind proportionally the eggs are big for a tiny mum. Mind they can repeat lay very frequently,A week to ten days in some cases obviously not so much with the obligate egg feeders,possibly this is geared to breeding while conditions are good hmm and us over feeding

Keep what ya love mate,you have to be fascinated by your animals. Have a look through the stickies up top for some ideas of so called easier phibs,for me the amount of research and prep makes what could be tricky much simpler. 

best
Stu


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## Gecko Bob (May 20, 2013)

pound note plater ? not a true frog lover ? from snake to ribbit ribbit lol


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## snakedon (Oct 4, 2010)

Thanks soundstounite, i think your right to stick to what i love at the end of the day, im pretty interested in reed frogs as you dont seem to see them that much in the hobby, although they are beautiful little frogs.

im just trying to track down a good few exo terrariums to get my new phib room started, im thinking of importing from china for them as i need a high quantity, iv seen what looks to be the exact same as lucky reptile terrariums but im getting 45X45X45 for around £30 which i thought was pretty interesting.



Gecko Bob
im not to sure what you meant by
"pound note plater ? not a true frog lover ? from snake to ribbit ribbit lol"

Care to enlighten?


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

You don't really want exo terras. Talk to Dale at DMS vivaria dms-vivaria.co.uk and he will sort you out some custom made amphibian vivariums. 

I am interested in your motivation for getting into the hobby though? Are you here to look for a quick buck? You will be better off breeding corns to be honest.


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## snakedon (Oct 4, 2010)

thanks for the heads up witht he vivs 

to be honest i got out of the snake game because of work commitments and my house situation was fairly unstable (the joys of starting your own company)

the reason i wanted to get into phibs is just the fact i find the interesting i did when i was into the reps but as i started on them i continued witht them, now money and my house is stable i can restart my hobby and pasion and i thought why not go for somthing differnt,

iv bred all sorts of lizards and snakes from corns and kings to a few nice royal morphs.

i hope this is acceptable, not to sure why after one post im having to start explaining it though.

and i understand breeding animals should never be done for profit all the money i have ever made from the trade has always gone back into my little friends and unless i was planning on calling it a day on my marketing company i wouldn't have enough time to make money from phibs, plus id most likely go into some expensive animals like royal morphs.





plasma234 said:


> You don't really want exo terras. Talk to Dale at DMS vivaria dms-vivaria.co.uk and he will sort you out some custom made amphibian vivariums.
> 
> I am interested in your motivation for getting into the hobby though? Are you here to look for a quick buck? You will be better off breeding corns to be honest.


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## Liam Yule (Feb 16, 2012)

I think you could have all the time in the world, you still wouldn't make money from phibs 

I only keep darts too:whistling2:. Welcome to the section though!


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## snakedon (Oct 4, 2010)

I no it was like it witht he reps but its more about the experiance you get in my eyes,

Everyone loves darts, i think i am going to start loving them after a week of speaking to you lot haha



Liam Yule said:


> I think you could have all the time in the world, you still wouldn't make money from phibs
> 
> I only keep darts too:whistling2:. Welcome to the section though!


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

snakedon said:


> i hope this is acceptable, not to sure why after one post im having to start explaining it though.
> 
> and i understand breeding animals should never be done for profit all the money i have ever made from the trade has always gone back into my little friends and unless i was planning on calling it a day on my marketing company i wouldn't have enough time to make money from phibs, plus id most likely go into some expensive animals like royal morphs.


there have been a few folk who have seen a remote rise in frog keepers as a reason to get into the 'hobby' purely to try and make money, but you'll find most hobbyists tend to buy from each other and ignore shops or those who sell on a massive scale. we've had em on here asking tentative questions and you can see through it. imagine snake breeder + which frog lays most eggs would set most alarm bells off. if you want an honest answer fell lol 

and there's not alot of money to be made unless you're selling frogs at extremely high prices that most folk won't want to pay really. wouldnt say there are alot in the hobby, but the frog prices generally stay low unless you are going for some stuff imported from the states, but the initial set up costs tend to make this expensive, add in the fact that by the time you've got a decent set of frogs comign through, folks have already started to 'flood' the market and lower the pric you initially paid out, i think in the last yr i've seen redheads and colubre's almost half in price in some quarters.

basically most folk on here love keeping frogs, breeding comes second (and tends to cost more than the frogs sold for in reality) and generally 'excess' stock is then sold to pay for some new plants cultures or if ya lucky a few new inhabitants for the collection

There are a few tree frog keepers, i was as a kid and was getting some milk frogs as i wasnt keen on darts at all, in the space of a yr i've now got 16 frogs, 4 different species lol and a room full of woodlice and flies lol

on another note, i've spent a shed load of cash on just putting a tank together as i know others have too


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

You never did get those milk frogs yet did you Joe.



Mike


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

frogman955 said:


> You never did get those milk frogs yet did you Joe.
> 
> 
> 
> Mike


one day, even them, when i was looking at them they were around 40/50 a pop, can pick up about £25 if not a tenner because so many people jumped on the amphib craze and didnt realise the shear volume of breeding


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Meefloaf said:


> one day, even them, when i was looking at them they were around 40/50 a pop, can pick up about £25 if not a tenner because so many people jumped on the amphib craze and didnt realise the shear volume of breeding


I bought some for a friend at the MAD meet in Morpeth last month, 5 for £40.


Mike


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## snakedon (Oct 4, 2010)

I can see completely where your coming from Meefloaf, its just like what happend with the beardies when i first started to get into it.

and dont worry im not about to get done over with the prices, im hoping to have everything sorted by mid November so i can pop to rodbastion breeders meeting if it still goes on, i havnt been in 2 years i think.

Milk frogs are one of the species im really drawn to just having a good read up on them at the moment.

im also feeling in a bit adventurus so i think im going to try and build a couple terrariums, drew out the plans today just need to get quotes for the glass.

has anyone on here took that challenge yet?


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

Stu makes his own and Dale at dms obv makes em for us :2thumb:

not worried about you getting done on prices, just showing you waht its like out there. put it this way i got five mysties for less than the price of two in a shop, the shop the lad supplies lol (no names here). 

you'll find yourself rinsing money away tho fella, i turn up at every baks meeting trying not to buy a frog lol even not taking a single item in which i could bring them home in, luckily i have a wonderful bunch of friends who supply me with such items and help talk me into getting em lol that an a very understanding girlfriend who knows im a bit weird:lol2:

but yeah i'd say frogs as a whole is a love not money hobby, there's very little to be made, dont think anyone on here really even breaks even if you crunched numbers.

i've been tempted to have a crack at building vivs but i've got a 8x6shed i've had for half the yr waiting to be built lol


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I just noticed where your from.
Damn it man your very close to one of my favourite shops.
Dartfrog - Everything for the Amphibian Keeper
And yes he does tree frogs.


Mike


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

see, i think our friend here would blatantly love terribs, tincs or galacs mike

what kind of space have you got btw fella ? and what kinda of viv are you looking at size and aesthetics wise


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Meefloaf said:


> Stu makes his own and Dale at dms obv makes em for us :2thumb:
> 
> not worried about you getting done on prices, just showing you waht its like out there. put it this way i got five mysties for less than the price of two in a shop, the shop the lad supplies lol (no names here).
> 
> ...


A couple of points here though Joe.
I`m a believer in supporting a particular shop simply because he was the one who helped get me started.
He was the one who spent ages on the phone with me discussing problems I was having when I first started out, things like SLS.
Unfortunately I was also told of another who was heard telling someone on the phone asking for help "you didn`t buy them from me so F off".
Shocking, but true.
The unfortunate side of buying from a shop is that you are having to pay for their overheads, but I think it is a necessary evil in some ways.
Now the major sticking point with me here is.
We do not coerce you into buying frogs at BAKS.
All we do is look to your softer side and offer our views on what might look nice in your vivs and leave you to make the decisions for yourself :whistling2:.


Mike


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Meefloaf said:


> see, i think our friend here would blatantly love terribs, tincs or galacs mike
> 
> what kind of space have you got btw fella ? and what kinda of viv are you looking at size and aesthetics wise


Don`t get me started on Terribs lmao.
For a frog which really did NOT float my boat when I first saw them, I just wouldn`t be without them.
Total nutters they are and guaranteed to make you laugh at feeding time.


Mike


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## snakedon (Oct 4, 2010)

I had a little look through that site when I was google browsing what caught my eyes where the dyeing dart frog and the maranon!!!

I think you ups are managing to talk a salesman into so hung he wasn't particular interested in to start haha some of these darts look amazing

Space wise is in a sense limitless but what my plan is having a small rack with 3 terrariums set up filling hme all with plants and having a living garden to start and slowly build the collection from there
The room is my home office which I presume if he phibs are anywhere near as addictive to the reps will soon become my frog room haha

The thing that confuses me with the darts is
You say tincs is this in reference to one type of dart or a selection of different types of tincs?

If at makes any sense ( long day at the office)


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

frogman955 said:


> A couple of points here though Joe.
> I`m a believer in supporting a particular shop simply because he was the one who helped get me started.
> He was the one who spent ages on the phone with me discussing problems I was having when I first started out, things like SLS.
> Unfortunately I was also told of another who was heard telling someone on the phone asking for help "you didn`t buy them from me so F off".
> ...


oh i agree fella, i go to my local computer game shop because the blokes lovely and i've been going there for years, he'll sort me them out with them earlier than expected and also knock a few quid off, he's ace. SO totally agree with you there, but i know the price of something and whilst i don't mind paying a few quid more to keep such an shop getting trade, i'm not going to spend say 100quid on two frogs that (for arguments sake) say that you or stu are offering me for 70 for the two, because frankly i'd rather give you guys the cash, and whilst im getting a better financial deal i know im getting quality. put it this way i'd rather spend the money on petrol and a hotel to pop up to stu in say a january (you're a bit far Mike , i think Paula might kill me) and even pay more for the frogs, than go to some shops around here simply because i know the quality of the stock. I know where you're coming from regarding overheads tho mate, you cant sell stuff at the price you buy it in at, gotta make a living

as for you lot, i know, but it's easier to blame you than admit i have a problem lol


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Tincs or Tinctorious are a group of frogs which comprises of several different morphs.
The Dying poison frog is a generalisation name wise.
One of the down sides to tree frogs is that they lounge around all day and come alive at night when your in bed.
Dart frogs are the opposite and of course you have the advantage of their amazing colours.
Try and visualize your office with something similar to what I have in my livingroom, below.

Mike


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

snakedon said:


> I had a little look through that site when I was google browsing what caught my eyes where the dyeing dart frog and the maranon!!!
> 
> I think you ups are managing to talk a salesman into so hung he wasn't particular interested in to start haha some of these darts look amazing
> 
> ...


Maranon ar called Mysties round here fella, just grabbed myself some, wonderful little characters. you'll also have to forgive my quick names, Tinc is short for Tinctorius which is a sub species of the Dendrobates family. They are big ol frogs on the whole and love munching some food, just got myself three beautiful blue guys, Azureus (these are not mine btw)


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Meefloaf said:


> oh i agree fella, i go to my local computer game shop because the blokes lovely and i've been going there for years, he'll sort me them out with them earlier than expected and also knock a few quid off, he's ace. SO totally agree with you there, but i know the price of something and whilst i don't mind paying a few quid more to keep such an shop getting trade, i'm not going to spend say 100quid on two frogs that (for arguments sake) say that you or stu are offering me for 70 for the two, because frankly i'd rather give you guys the cash, and whilst im getting a better financial deal i know im getting quality. put it this way i'd rather spend the money on petrol and a hotel to pop up to stu in say a january (you're a bit far Mike , i think Paula might kill me) and even pay more for the frogs, than go to some shops around here simply because i know the quality of the stock. I know where you're coming from regarding overheads tho mate, you cant sell stuff at the price you buy it in at, gotta make a living
> 
> as for you lot, i know, but it's easier to blame you than admit i have a problem lol


It`s okay Joe I get where your coming from on the prices.
We all have the same issues to deal with.
But.
There you go again, passing the buck when you know you have a problem lol.


Mike


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

we're not honestly trying to steer you towards darts, but you asked and we're passionate lol



honest


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## snakedon (Oct 4, 2010)

Ok so correct me if I'm wrong
It's simmered to a royal python multiple morphs but also multiple python species
In a sense 

I think if anything obv early days and I have to most likely change my mind a hundred times but I'm swaying towards mysties in a nice healthy viv

Or are there more suited species for the beginner frogger ;-)

As far as the office goes atleast it will keep me entertained on those dragging days


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Truth be told, if a new keeper can listen to some sound advice and do the correct research, all frogs are a beginners frog.
The different morphs have their own difficulties and it`s more about finding out what you need to know about THAT particular frog which may hold your fancy.
So I say, go for what you want.
Find out what you need to know about it, particularly from the breeder your buying it from.
Then go for it.
If the viv is right, if you have the foods all sorted, your probably 80% of the way there.


Mike


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## snakedon (Oct 4, 2010)

Very true
I was just readin the bit in your sig about how many and viv sizes, very useful thanks.
Is Dartfrog - Everything for the Amphibian Keeper your website?



frogman955 said:


> Truth be told, if a new keeper can listen to some sound advice and do the correct research, all frogs are a beginners frog.
> The different morphs have their own difficulties and it`s more about finding out what you need to know about THAT particular frog which may hold your fancy.
> So I say, go for what you want.
> Find out what you need to know about it, particularly from the breeder your buying it from.
> ...


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

snakedon said:


> Very true
> I was just readin the bit in your sig about how many and viv sizes, very useful thanks.
> Is Dartfrog - Everything for the Amphibian Keeper your website?



Thanks :2thumb:.

The Dartfrog site isn`t mine.
But I have this dreadful urge to visit the place every time I`m down that way.
This hobby is an addiction you see.


Mike


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## snakedon (Oct 4, 2010)

Hi
was just wondering how come you wouldnt recomend exo terras?



plasma234 said:


> You don't really want exo terras. Talk to Dale at DMS vivaria dms-vivaria.co.uk and he will sort you out some custom made amphibian vivariums.
> 
> I am interested in your motivation for getting into the hobby though? Are you here to look for a quick buck? You will be better off breeding corns to be honest.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

snakedon said:


> Ok so correct me if I'm wrong
> It's simmered to a royal python multiple morphs but also multiple python species
> In a sense
> 
> ...


buddy what's ya name?

Kiddo we have a fundamental difference between our out look towards morphs,I feel than the snake guys do. We prize what mum nature gave us,we don't create genetic mutations..."morphs". In fact we fight pretty passionately against this. Our morphs of a species,such as tinctorious "tincs" are naturally occurring wild populations,in most cases isolated from each other. So for example we don't cross a regina tinc with a new river,to make a pretty designer morph,we feel we have no need,we have been given it all anyway. Mate here's a link to some of the wild type morphs in just this one species,just to illustrate,why designer morphs are something one won't find in the dart hobby.We don't do hybrids either:lol2: This is just one species kiddo,our choice is unreal,almost limitless.

Morphguide - die einzelnen Varianten

Mate as you have seen we are very passionate about what we keep,I won't try and convert you to darts,but I'll let the pictures talk and just say this:

we keep diurnal frogs that have something going on,they know us,some bolder species will walk straight up to us,beg for food. Frogs that breed for us,display high parental care,we get to watch parents carrying tadpoles,see tiny faces appear in a viv,that we never knew were there. We play with small numbers of tads and watch not only the miracle of metamorphosis,but the extra bang for the buck of a tiny brown blob with a tail,turn into an amazing tiny jewell,blue /red/ yellow/spotty...you name it we have it. Add on the factor,for the most part dart guys help each other at the drop of a hat,share info,it's a cool hobby to be part of.

So I'm still of the mind to say keep what ya love dude,if it's a mad giant toad cool,or a little reed ace,this is the most important thing. If it happens to be darts wicked welcome again. The most important thing is once you choose head down research hard,we'll help if we can

good luck

Stu


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

snakedon said:


> Hi
> was just wondering how come you wouldnt recomend exo terras?


Depending on what you wish to keep they are generally pretty crap lol. The mesh top will rust, food will escape from the poorly fitting doors and from the cable holes at the back, they are expsensive new, they won't hold humidity, you can't get them custom made for the size you need. 

Dale(among others) will make you a viv that will perfectly fit your needs, if you needed one that is 47cm x 51x 55 he would make you one for example. Proper stainless steel fruit fly mesh meaning food can't escape, with superior ventilation properties, ie a step vent and a top vent. I am sure he would do you a bulk buy deal as well mate, making them a lot better value all round than any exo.


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## Liam Yule (Feb 16, 2012)

This thread is mental. I read the last two pages and almost spat my tea out. ''I want frogs, not sure about darts like''

Brilliant effort guys :no1: :lol2:


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## snakedon (Oct 4, 2010)

ok Guys youv done it!!!!!

i haven't posted on here today as iv been buying all sorts and doing a hell of alot of reading

new terrariums on the way 60x45x45

you have got me wanting darts haha i think im wanting a pair of cobalt tincs!!!

HAPPY NOW GUYS!!!

another question i had for all you guys was, you see alot of terrariums with plants planted up the sides of the tank

how is this done? do i just clip it to the side? or would i need to pot it and maybe cover with expanding foam? 

one of the questions i couldn't work out.


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## snakedon (Oct 4, 2010)

Apolagies if i caused insult btw by relating darts to royals haha

was just to try and get my head around it but i gather there more sub species in a sense then haha



soundstounite said:


> buddy what's ya name?
> 
> Kiddo we have a fundamental difference between our out look towards morphs,I feel than the snake guys do. We prize what mum nature gave us,we don't create genetic mutations..."morphs". In fact we fight pretty passionately against this. Our morphs of a species,such as tinctorious "tincs" are naturally occurring wild populations,in most cases isolated from each other. So for example we don't cross a regina tinc with a new river,to make a pretty designer morph,we feel we have no need,we have been given it all anyway. Mate here's a link to some of the wild type morphs in just this one species,just to illustrate,why designer morphs are something one won't find in the dart hobby.We don't do hybrids either:lol2: This is just one species kiddo,our choice is unreal,almost limitless.
> 
> ...


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

yeah the problem we get (i dont really like the snake hobby due to it) folk think that they'll get two diff frogs, breed em and end up with a new cool morph they can name and flog to everyone, but what usually happens is you get a frog that looks alot like one of them and then this gets sold on as the original 'morph' and not a half breed mutt lol. There was recently a girl on facebook and it appeared she had 4 different in one tank, one of which a fellow breeder believed to be a cross and not the 'super blue auratus' she claimed it to be, and she didnt like it when i asked questions, her excuse was that she "got them from the greatest breeder in the uk who cant read or write and supplies to loads of shops and he said it was fine". we're passionate guys, i will hold my hands up and say sometime i come across on here as a bit of a troll, but i just dont do BS, i'll ask the questions some want to but dont want to cause offence, because i care and i want to make people aware of certain things.

what scumbags like her dont realise is, "my fwoggy shiny culaful paradise" could have a major impact on the hobby, her selling one frog to a guy to add to a group leads to said group having an unknown mutt amongst its numbers, it'll breed and a few more will be sold on to other unknowing people and we get to a stage where one persons selfish actions lead to a massive effect on the 'purity' of a dartfrog kept in the hobby, this could (big stress here) lead to folk needing to go out there and get some more wild caught specimens to try and sort the mess out, which isnt what we want. also with the world going the way it is, soon some of our collections might hold frogs extinct in the wild.

now its all theory and people getting upset, and it does split folks, its one of the reasons most on here will try and get folk to keep em apart. others like Stu and Mike will have more knowledgeable musings on the subject.

basically nature gave us something beautiful, why try and improve it, why not just have several pretty things :lol2:


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## chrisperrins78 (Nov 2, 2011)

snakedon said:


> ok Guys youv done it!!!!!
> 
> i haven't posted on here today as iv been buying all sorts and doing a hell of alot of reading
> 
> ...


Look in the habitat forum, there is loads of info on planted habitats.
Cheers
Chris


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

snakedon said:


> Apolagies if i caused insult btw by relating darts to royals haha
> 
> was just to try and get my head around it but i gather there more sub species in a sense then haha



Ha insult,you're having a laugh bro,mind if I have to call you by the sig,that might wear thin. Buddy on a daily basis I don't see letters like you do,your name is Don right? Stu sees snakedom.

Kiddo there were no insults here just a guy asking Q's. If the guy doesn't know we try with the little we have to help. We collectively are passionate,but that doesn't mean taring ya a new one, it might mean a few Q's back to find out who you are,which you answered,but nowt more. So apologies aren't needed. It's just someone needs to share our ethics,which you might not be aware of,because they are fundamentally different to much of the snake hobby,NOT ALL i MIGHT ADD. 

More subsubspecies, hmm morphs to us,but hell while we are here,go dig out oophaga pumillio,there's a couple of them about too:2thumb:

Well if ya want tincs,learn to culture first:2thumb:

Oh kiddo plants an vivs,read me room thread for a starter,it'll only take 10mins

Its called Da dart room it's here lurking,it's written for the next guy,it's not the only way or the right way,it's one way

Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

snakedon said:


> HAPPY NOW GUYS!!!



Very :lol2:.
Seriously though our job wasn`t to covert you, only to delve into your deepest self and show you the light.
But I doubt that you`ll regret your decision, I have no regrets on taking the plunge.
Now you can go and exercise your mind and try to dream up the perfect viv.
Backgrounds are the first thing to be decided on and you have several styles to think about.
Everyone has the best ideas as you`ll soon discover, but you`ll make your own mind up there.
There is gorilla glue with eco erth stuck to it which is a messy way to do it and the glue always comes away from the glass meaning you have to redo things further down the line.
There is expanding foam which can give some fancy not bad looking backgrounds which can be carved to any shape and then covered in gorilla glue or silicone with eco earth pressed in.
Bear in mind that the eco earth rots away in time leaving you with bare foam, silicone or glue.
You can also build up your background with insulating foam sheets and carve out the shape or design you want and again cover it as above.
And lastly there is what I`ve done with my vivs.
No background at all.
Cover the back of the viv with fablon to give a black gloss finish and then put in your wood and have your plants growing over everything.
It is faster to do, it`s easier, it`s less messy and if you ever have to do a strip down it only takes a few minutes, and then you just rebuild it again.
The substrate ?
Again there are different kinds and everyone has the best ideas lol.
Once again I like simple, so I use peat plates which Dartfrog sells.
Clean and simple with no messy earth.
Lay the plates down and build up the wood etc, chuck in some leaf litter and off you go.
Then it`s just the usual waiting game for it all to grow in.
Like I said, now is when your going to have to get thinking :2thumb:.


Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Meefloaf said:


> yeah the problem we get (i dont really like the snake hobby due to it) folk think that they'll get two diff frogs, breed em and end up with a new cool morph they can name and flog to everyone, but what usually happens is you get a frog that looks alot like one of them and then this gets sold on as the original 'morph' and not a half breed mutt lol. There was recently a girl on facebook and it appeared she had 4 different in one tank, one of which a fellow breeder believed to be a cross and not the 'super blue auratus' she claimed it to be, and she didnt like it when i asked questions, her excuse was that she "got them from the greatest breeder in the uk who cant read or write and supplies to loads of shops and he said it was fine". we're passionate guys, i will hold my hands up and say sometime i come across on here as a bit of a troll, but i just dont do BS, i'll ask the questions some want to but dont want to cause offence, because i care and i want to make people aware of certain things.
> 
> what scumbags like her dont realise is, "my fwoggy shiny culaful paradise" could have a major impact on the hobby, her selling one frog to a guy to add to a group leads to said group having an unknown mutt amongst its numbers, it'll breed and a few more will be sold on to other unknowing people and we get to a stage where one persons selfish actions lead to a massive effect on the 'purity' of a dartfrog kept in the hobby, this could (big stress here) lead to folk needing to go out there and get some more wild caught specimens to try and sort the mess out, which isnt what we want. also with the world going the way it is, soon some of our collections might hold frogs extinct in the wild.
> 
> ...


Joe could you PM me a pic of that SB please bro,I'm very curious to see it. I know damn well we can't id a frog by phenotype,but as i've seen a couple of kids or so now,this one has my attention
thanks buddy
belucky 

Stu


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

she deleted the thread mate, no photo to find, it was black and blue, but its body was very similar to that of a leuc as were the markings (difficult to explain)


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