# Ban Public from Keeping Reptiles



## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

Ban public from keeping reptiles because they keep accidentally killing them, say vets*

Thoughts? 

I have not read the main article in the Veterinary Record but I can only imagine the drivel Mr Warwick et al, is spouting - the problem I have with these articles is that they highlight the absolute worst of the worst and the lowest common denominator within the hobby and tarnish the rest of us with the same brush. 

I think we as a hobby need to be better at actively promoting the positive aspects to the wider public / media.


Also, I would question this statement: "it is important for reptile owners to get information from a reliable, credible source - their local vet" now while I completely agree that when we suspect one of our animals of being sick or injured we should seek out the expertise of a suitably qualified vet - they can't and shouldn't be used as a source of information for husbandry related questions. Yes there are exceptions (I know several vets who keep reptiles as pets) but in general a vet even an exotic vet, doesn't have the necessary experience to advise on in depth husbandry related issues. 

It would almost be like asking parenting advice from your GP!!


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## Dungbug (Oct 16, 2007)

Animal neglect isn't limited to reptiles, should members of the public be banned from keeping dogs, cats etc. Maybe ban the public from having children because (sadly) there are cases of neglect there as well. I agree that any potential owner should study their choice of pet in depth prior to even making the decision. Near to where I live there is a great rep shop who are very knowledgeable and always willing to help regardless of whether it's an animal they have sold or not, I know this probably doesn't apply to all shops/breeders but it's certainly a step in the right direction for the hobby as a whole. I don't confess to know everything about everything, we never stop learning in life and passing on knowledge based on experience is something I'm always happy to do. 

I would prefer to see the issue of dog breeding being the focus of something like this, my local animal shelter is awash with Staff's as are the local classifieds offers Staff pups for sale. Of course there's always the types that want to make a quick buck for little effort, it's just figuring out how best to manage it. You make a valid point that responsible exotic keepers are being tarred with the same brush here yet the same isn't applied to dog or cat owners.......... Or even parents of children 

It would be interesting to know the ratio of pets owned to cases of neglect of said pet compares between dogs & exotics.


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## daysocks (Nov 25, 2016)

I would like to see the data behind the claim in the article that 3 out of 4 reptiles die in the first year of keeping.

Where does that data come from? Does that include hatchlings that would have never made it? Does the data only include those that visit the vet? Because the thousands of reptiles (especially bearded dragons) that last years in substandard conditions would beg to differ with that statistic.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

I don't know the exact numbers but the ratio of reptiles being kept v's the number being rehomed is very, very low. 

Compared to more common companion animals, the numbers are extremely low. 



Dungbug said:


> It would be interesting to know the ratio of pets owned to cases of neglect of said pet compares between dogs & exotics.


This is the thing, factually this statement may actually be true.......

.....if we were in 1970!! This is my point, these people bring up studies and statements without any context behind them. 



daysocks said:


> I would like to see the data behind the claim in the article that 3 out of 4 reptiles die in the first year of keeping.
> 
> Where does that data come from? Does that include hatchlings that would have never made it? Does the data only include those that visit the vet? Because the thousands of reptiles (especially bearded dragons) that last years in substandard conditions would beg to differ with that statistic.


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## Esiuol (May 19, 2014)

daysocks said:


> I would like to see the data behind the claim in the article that 3 out of 4 reptiles die in the first year of keeping.
> 
> Where does that data come from? Does that include hatchlings that would have never made it? Does the data only include those that visit the vet? Because the thousands of reptiles (especially bearded dragons) that last years in substandard conditions would beg to differ with that statistic.


It comes from Pet Hate, The Biologist, Vol 59 No 3 an article written by Clifford Warwick and Elaine Toland... not an actual scientific paper. Merely assumptions passed around as facts http://endcap.eu/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/The_Biologist_75percentdie12_18.pdf

However, an actual research paper that proves Warwick's and Toland's assumptions wrong - Captive Reptile Mortality Rates in the Home and Implications for the Wildlife Trade Captive Reptile Mortality Rates in the Home and Implications for the Wildlife Trade


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Esiuol said:


> It comes from Pet Hate, The Biologist, Vol 59 No 3 an article written by Clifford Warwick and Elaine Toland... not an actual scientific paper. Merely assumptions passed around as facts http://endcap.eu/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/The_Biologist_75percentdie12_18.pdf
> 
> However, an actual research paper that proves Warwick's and Toland's assumptions wrong - Captive Reptile Mortality Rates in the Home and Implications for the Wildlife Trade Captive Reptile Mortality Rates in the Home and Implications for the Wildlife Trade


Warwick & Toland? Say no more, then.:roll:


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

But this is the problem - to poo poo these individuals (rightly or wrongly) is to underestimate the clout they have with the upper echelons of law makers in this country. 



wilkinss77 said:


> Warwick & Toland? Say no more, then.:roll:


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> But this is the problem - to poo poo these individuals (rightly or wrongly) is to underestimate the clout they have with the upper echelons of law makers in this country.


But do they? Apart from scaring local councils into banning shows by spreading lies & misinformation, what have they ever achieved where the law is concerned?


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

Well you just confirmed one example where these individuals (granted as part of a wider group) were instrumental in banning shows - they also instigated Richard Lochhead's announcement to review the keeping of exotic animals - so as I said, the fact these people are being given creditability is worrying in itself. 

As someone who has been party to government led conversations, these individuals are ALWAYS present and are ALWAYS near the top of the invite list.

Just because they have not 'achieved' anything tangible which impacts the wider population as yet doesn't mean they won't in the future - you know yourself, all it would take is for something to happen (such as a large boid to escape its enclosure and to injure a child or a non licensed venomous snake to bite someone) for them to gain more traction.

People forget that these Animal Rights Groups are *extremely well organised businesses* - with people dedicated to activities such as marketing and fundraising. 



wilkinss77 said:


> But do they? Apart from scaring local councils into banning shows by spreading lies & misinformation, what have they ever achieved where the law is concerned?


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Well you just confirmed one example where these individuals (granted as part of a wider group) were instrumental in banning shows - they also instigated Richard Lochhead's announcement to review the keeping of exotic animals - so as I said, the fact these people are being given creditability is worrying in itself.
> 
> As someone who has been party to government led conversations, these individuals are ALWAYS present and are ALWAYS near the top of the invite list.
> 
> ...


Worrying indeed that just 2 such individuals with misguided views & bitter attitudes could potentially endanger our hobby.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

Absolutely, but these two are just the 'face' of a much, much bigger machine. 



wilkinss77 said:


> Worrying indeed that just 2 such individuals with misguided views & bitter attitudes could potentially endanger our hobby.


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