# The EPS "threat"



## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Before writing (yet another) letter to my MP and local council complaining (again) about another injustice in the hobby.. I tried, at the beginning of the month, to contact DEFRA and try and get some hard cold facts. How was the EPS going to effect existing animals, how would it effect me as a keeper, how would it effect me as a retailer, who was going to enforce it, and several other questions which I find the answers to lacking.

Phone call = no one has a clue what's being talked about. Given an email.

Email = generic response. Later followed by postal address for office.

Letter to office = generic response "thank you for contacting us your query has been forwarded to the relevant department..."

No information. No one seems to know what's going on there - how can we as consumers or sellers know what's going on - if the very people who are meant to be policing and implementing the laws of the country don't have a clue what's going on?

I find it very hard to word a letter to anyone of importance considering according to DEFRA the EPS seems to be a non entity!

Has anyone had direct contact with anyone in an official position with actual answers, not speculation, not assumptions, but direct contact with someone who works in this field?

I have spent almost a month now.. reading the posts on here with great interest, but also actually trying to find facts, that don't seem to exist!

Please note I am not saying the EPS does not exist or is not a serious threat; I am trying to work out the competence level of the people organising it and where I can actually get the answers I need.


----------



## MissHayho (Mar 17, 2007)

wevw just been saying this on the tortoise thread as well! Ive not heard of it n e where apart from on this website!


----------



## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

if they cant even give an answer how the hell can they expect to prosecute people over it?

In my mind its absolutely ridiculous anyway, I dont see how it can be legal, how can they suddenly backdate a law 13 years, and say all these animals purchased when it wasnt illegal need to be put to sleep or proved they are captive bred, what happened to innocent until proven guilty? it makes me wonder what this country is coming to. Im still convinced a decent lawyer could tear them to shreds in court.


----------



## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

Im still convinced a decent lawyer could tear them to shreds in court.

they could yes, it comes down to who pays the lawyer tho!

people at defra do know about the EPS, the financial team do for sure, seeing as the EU fined them for not implementing it 13 years ago when they should have done.. the ordinary defra worker may not have a clue, but the higher levels do, and i do know that for fact.

however, its defra side arm, Natural England, who are the ones to contact apparently... their details are as follows

 *Enquiries*

Our Enquiry Service is the first point of contact for all general enquiries about Natural England and its work. The team should be able to answer most enquiries immediately but will transfer you to appropriate colleagues for help with more technical or specialist enquiries.
The Enquiry Service can be contacted at:
Enquiries, Natural England, Northminster House, Peterborough, PE1 1UA 
Tel: 0845 600 3078 (local rate) 
Fax: 01733 455103 
You can fill out our online enquiry form or email [email protected].
*Press Office*

You can send an email direct to the Natural England Press Office via [email protected] or:
Tel: 0845 603 9953 (local rate)
Fax: 01733 455188 or 01242 584270
For our out of hours service, please telephone: 07970 098005 
*Natural England Press Team*
Stuart Burgess, Senior Press Officer: 01733 455190
Matthew Heard, Senior Press Officer: 0117 910 2919 or 07900 608168
Heather McMorland, Press Officer: 01733 455190
Nuala Murray, Press Officer: 01242 533398
Beth Rose, Press Officer: 0207 238 4599/07900 608052
Sue Ellis, Head of Press and Media: 01733 455184
*Natural England Parliamentary Team*

Nigel Ellway, Senior Parliamentary Specialist: 0207 340 4882
Suzanne Alcorn, Parliamentary Specialist: 0207 340 4885
*Head Office*

Natural England, 1 East Parade, Sheffield, S1 2ET
Tel: 0114 241 8920 
Fax: 0114 241 8921
How to find us  [221 kB]
*Regional Contacts*

East of England
East Midlands
London
North East
North West
South East
South West
West Midlands
Yorkshire and the Humber
*Complaints procedure*

If you wish to complain about Natural England please see our complaints procedure.


please, when you call, write, or email, do pass on the very best regards from the PKL Team. 


N


----------



## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Thanks Nerys, disregarding any of the other travesties... I think the fact that retailers are not being informed about anything when there are species on there that will effect them, is quite frankly very unacceptable.

I will be writing these people some letters and attempting to get more facts, so I can then actually talk to my local council/MP (who are probably tired about me by now).


----------



## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

i must just add tho, that we DID contact NE about 2 weeks back, asking for clarification on the dormouse issue.. as in why an extinct animal, and ones endemic to japan, were on there...

needless to say, we have not yet got a response..

defra are somewhat suprised by all the fuss being made over it.. they, it seems, did not anticipate that all these keepers would be upset that they reccomend "donating your animals to a museum if you cannot get the license.."

i mean come on, surely they are not that daft.. are they?? what the heck did they think we would say!

N


----------



## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

il keep buying lottery tickets and when I win my millions, I will pay a top lawyer to sue


----------



## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

good on ya Si

in the mean time... at some point soon, we will be drawing up a letter than can be downloaded and printed off, this can be accompnied by one of our pretty pictures.. we do have several levels of such now, so as to not offend are more innocent readers.. (see, at least we listen!!)

we have the details of the minister who is in charge of this act, and so you will shortly be able to download a letter and image of protest, and then wing it off to the lady who signed this farce off.. 

we would also like to ask people to print off a campaign flyer and distribute it to their local pet and reptile shops, to anywhere you think people might be, who might need to know.. i will even be flyering the local feed merchants, and farm shops, nature sancturies and so on.

it is, in our opinion, essential that we get word of this out there as quickly as we can, we only have 2 months left to let people know about this now..

N


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*EPS Campaign*

Nerys is right.

We are now in the process of implimenting the EPS letter and flyer campaigns.

The letters will be written, a standard letter with a photo at the top. A photo of the writers choice to each pdf file which can be printed off and posted out. So we do ask all those, even if you do not support PKL as a concept then support your fellow keeper.

DEFRA need to be woken up to this concept, NOW.

Confusion runs deep in the shock scale within DEFRA at present, and the Minister in charge needs to be alerted to how big a problem this is.

The pdf files will be completed this week /early next week for a launch.

We ask all keepers to please support this issue.

Failure to do so will only result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent victims....and then where will the powers to be look next??

What else can they chip away at?

What else will the antis manage to have implimented?

No, please, l implore of you that when we launch this support it. EPS keeper and non EPS keeper unite to make the greatest impact.

We will keep you informed.

Many Thanks

Rory Matier 
Pro Keepers Lobby


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Athravan said:


> I will be writing these people some letters and attempting to get more facts, so I can then actually talk to my local council/MP (who are probably tired about me by now).


Just be prepared to get fobbed off by a form letter and a download.

That's what I got, when I asked some VERY specific questions to which I want answers.


----------



## Dirteewrongen (Jan 6, 2007)

Same here, only heard about it through this forum - so if you don't have internet access and visit these forums then chances of you even hearing about it.........
I've written four times to two local Mp's (firstly regarding the awa) - one reply saying that I would be contacted - I'm still waiting surprise surprise, but one of them does hold 'surgeries' so I'm hoping to get face to face. I also got that 'thank you for contacting us.....' reply from defra - still waiting there too.
I've read and re read it all and tried to make sense of it all - pah! If the idea of it all was to keep it quiet and make it impossible to figure for those that have heard about it, then they've succeeded in that.
I think the letters/flyers you are working on sound like a fantastic idea and I'll certainly be using them. If theres anything else I can do to help then let me know, printing, sending, calling etc


----------



## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

well, we were talking the other day about the idea of getting as many people as we could to make a list of all the pet shops in their local area.. say within x many miles of their home postcode, or work post code...

if we could get the name of the shop, the postcode/address, and the name of the owner or shop manager, we could then build up a database of all the pet shops and animal / animal product selling outlets in the uk. 

we are a pretty wide spread group of people, most of whom do the local pet shop / reptile shop tours every now and then anyway to see if there is anything worth picking up!

we could get someone to do an interactive map on the site maybe and everytime a new list comes in, mark it with a pin or something, so people could also then use it to see what was in which area if they are going on holidays or days out or so on.

the idea though, would be for us to then get someone like ssthisto to write up a relatively brief letter, explaining the EPS as best we understand and see it. we then email it to all of you guys, with the shops name and managers name on, and then next time you get a chance, maybe you could pop them in an envelope, and into the letter box. if people would not mind printing them out, we could add a copy of the basic EPS flyer that SSthisto did also, in case they want to display it at all..

its a way everyone could get involved and actually feel like there was something they could do.. i don't fully understand EPS, and i've had it rammed down my throat 24-7 for the last few weeks.. the thing is, you don't have to understand it all that well to print of a letter and post it through a door.. its hugely daunting trying to actually think of something we could all do that would not take up too much of peoples time, and yet would still be such an incredibly useful exercise.

its not an agressive action, its not a pushy action.. its designed to at least spread the word to the huge amount of pet keepers who are totally unaware of whats going on.. as people keep saying, there are so so many folks who do not use the internet. we do, and so in a way are privalidged (do scuse spelling!) to know whats going on sooner than many.. surely if we know about it, we can at least pass on what we learn?

if just 20 members collected the names of 5 shops each, and then delivered them a letter (you don't even have to talk to them if you don't want to!)

we would be able to contact 100 shops.. how many people will that than inform if each shop makes their customers aware of the EPS for the next two months.. 

is any one up for doing that at all? Please?

Nerys


----------



## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Nerys.. I can give you the names and addresses of 100 shops in the UK just by myself to be honest, and I think it is a good idea.. with everyone pooling I am absolutely sure you could get a very extensive list up.


----------



## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

really? wow! thats great!

i'll see what i can find out about doing this map idea.. maybe we split it by counties or something, and then we can start to see which areas different people can cover maybe  then we have to find some virtual pins lol..

if you can let me have them somehow, then i can sort them into an excel database or something, i think most people have a package that can work with .xls spreadsheets?

rory is talking to ssthisto now about getting the letter sorted, so with any luck we can get this rolling as soon as we can 

thanks hon!

N


----------



## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

I could have a drive around sometime and have a talk with the petshops and reptile shops, get the required details. There are alot i can think of just sitting here.. And more if i drive to different areas.


----------



## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

As I mentioned to you at the weekend, I was already intending on doing something similar - I have 7 pet shops within very easy reach, I could easily do more in a full day. Kat is on board too, she already knows a lot of the owners of the smaller shops well.
I just need to do some printing now!


----------



## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

It would also be a good idea for everyone to post a copy to their local newspaper and a few of the nationals as well.


----------



## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

Good thinking Fixx - that would be an easy one to do...


----------



## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

Ally said:


> Good thinking Fixx - that would be an easy one to do...


Especially to their local free newspapers, we have the Gazette down here, delivered free through nearly *every* door down here in North Devon. 

If you can find anyone who has already applied or is applying for the license then get them to contact the local free rags, they are always looking for good stories with human interest. Somebody in the same situation as Ssthisto may be able to get a local reporter to do an article on them, with anonymity of course.


----------



## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

someone could get on the one show, promoting pets


----------



## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

I did say that the newspapers would be a really good way to get publics attention of those who don't go on the internet. But no one seemed to reply to it  in another thread lol

Well i could try to talk to one of the reporters of the local newspaper who are reporting of our fundraising for the charity, Brainwave, who deal with my brothers disability


----------



## Dirteewrongen (Jan 6, 2007)

Nerys said:


> well, we were talking the other day about the idea of getting as many people as we could to make a list of all the pet shops in their local area.. say within x many miles of their home postcode, or work post code...
> 
> if we could get the name of the shop, the postcode/address, and the name of the owner or shop manager, we could then build up a database of all the pet shops and animal / animal product selling outlets in the uk.
> 
> ...


Just putting a list together of all the ones I can get to, more than I thought actually lol. Would you like me to send it or just keep it until you need it?


----------



## Dirteewrongen (Jan 6, 2007)

Got adresses and phone numbers for seventy odd pet shops in Essex - Started making a list of all the ones I knew then had a brainwave and used Yell.com lol. If everyone could do that for their own county/area the list would be huge with hardly any effort - just copy paste, copy paste. I'll post flyers etc to the shops I can't get to personally.

What about Vets?


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Well, we've taken a couple of letters and flyers 'round to two shops we visit on a regular basis.

And one, the one we are on better terms with, has said they did not know anything about the legislation DESPITE having had communications and information from DEFRA in the last six months.


----------



## Onissarle (Mar 1, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Well, we've taken a couple of letters and flyers 'round to two shops we visit on a regular basis.
> 
> And one, the one we are on better terms with, has said they did not know anything about the legislation DESPITE having had communications and information from DEFRA in the last six months.


Which was particularly worrying because they currently stock fire-bellied toads, fortunately the wrong locality to be covered but most pet shops wouldn't even know the difference. If DEFRA are in contact with pet shops on a regular basis and are still not making any attempt to inform them about which animals they now need documentary evidence or licences to legally trade, the situation is actually worse than originally suspected. Either they're deliberately withholding informative for some reason or their internal management of this issue is completely incompetent.


----------

