# A threat to the hobby



## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

This is certainly worth a read:
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...ve-non-native-species-policy.html#post8032312


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## xjak3yx (Nov 8, 2010)

a very interesting read, thanks for posting it. 
with the example of the corn snake used will that still affect the UK as we are in the EU though its unlikely a corn snake would survive our winter, meaning it would pose a low threat as an invasive species? 
also how can the stop people keeping species if they dont know where they are in the country and who keeps them if they get put on this 'black list'


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

xjak3yx said:


> a very interesting read, thanks for posting it.
> with the example of the corn snake used will that still affect the UK as we are in the EU though its unlikely a corn snake would survive our winter, meaning it would pose a low threat as an invasive species?


well, it would affect the UK as various Elaphe ssp. live quite happily in North Eastern Canada and the Northern US states so could easily acclimate to UK Seasons in a relatively short space of time



xjak3yx said:


> also how can the stop people keeping species if they dont know where they are in the country and who keeps them if they get put on this 'black list'


First the importers would be stopped.....which means pet stores wouldnt be stocking them.....no-one would be able to advertise due to fear of being 'raided'....there would be no mention of any of the 'banned sp' on any forum and don't think for a second that officials wouldnt join forums to watch 'suspected' breeders and suppliers....it happens already


It is a large list of possible inclusions....

Heterodon nasicus Western Hog-nosed Snake
Heterodon platirhinos Eastern Hog-nosed Snake
Opheodrys aestivus Rough Greensnake
Opheodrys vernalis Smooth Greensnake
Pituophis catenifer Gophersnake/Bullsnake/Pine Snake
Thamnophis proximus Western Ribbonsnake
Thamnophis radix Plains Gartersnake
Thamnophis sauritus Eastern Ribbonsnake
Thamnophis sirtalis Common Gartersnake
Lampropeltis getula Common Kingsnake
Lampropeltis triangulum Milk Snake
Elaphe guttata Corn Snake

and all derivatives of....this is just a few of the snakes that survive long winters down to -25c

Even the Burmese Python has proven that it can survive down to -15c in the recent Miami winters....whether it could evolve to breed is yet another thing though....but remember....this is the EU we are talking about so it could include any species that is ever subject to sub zero temperatures such as

Various Ts...including a few Grammostola....various scorps....a few mantid species....Plants also would be affected....seeing as how most invasive plant species around the world are thought to be 'escapees' from botanical gardens

Then remember....it may just be a blanket EU coverage of species not country specific!


the implications as far as the whole exotics trade are concerned are huge!

BUt also remember....it's a possible proposal not a definite one!


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

xjak3yx said:


> with the example of the corn snake used will that still affect the UK as we are in the EU though its unlikely a corn snake would survive our winter, meaning it would pose a low threat as an invasive species?
> also how can the stop people keeping species if they dont know where they are in the country and who keeps them if they get put on this 'black list'


The EU is considering whether or not the same lists be used across all EU Member States. That means anything that could survive from the coldest to the warmest parts of Europe would take a blanket ban in all countries!

Enforcing it would be hard, but making it lllegal at source would turn the hobbyist into an underground movement.


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## xjak3yx (Nov 8, 2010)

ahhh that sounds horrible for us exotics keepers :rant2:


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Yup and far worse even for the 100,000's (maybe more) across the EU who will lose their incomes, still with how strong the global economy is right now im sure it won't hurt business and entrepreneurship :2thumb:


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

not just the EU.....a big chunk of Pet Trade Snakes, Lizards and Amphibs are collected and imported from the Northern US.....and China too......the Goldfish will become a distant memory :gasp:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

xjak3yx said:


> a very interesting read, thanks for posting it.
> with the example of the corn snake used will that still affect the UK as we are in the EU though its unlikely a corn snake would survive our winter, meaning it would pose a low threat as an invasive species?
> also how can the stop people keeping species if they dont know where they are in the country and who keeps them if they get put on this 'black list'


 
corn snakes would easily survive winters there... they're very near me in kentucky... just across the ohio river here..

it's still winter here... 34F right now... it's noon!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> well, it would affect the UK as various Elaphe ssp. live quite happily in North Eastern Canada and the Northern US states so could easily acclimate to UK Seasons in a relatively short space of time
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 how would a rough green harm the uk? or a garter for that matter?


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

rough greens would eat our inverts and garters would compete with our Grass Snakes for food and den sites

they would harm in the same way the American Bullfrog does....and thats already banned


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> not just the EU.....a big chunk of Pet Trade Snakes, Lizards and Amphibs are collected and imported from the Northern US.....and China too......the Goldfish will become a distant memory :gasp:


Yes forgot that, and "lucky reptile" might have to rename to something less fortunate.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

let it come I say I for one won't be worrying about it.:whistling2:


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## Blurboy (Feb 9, 2007)

The programmes I watched about the Burmese Pythons in Miami said that all the big ones didn't survive and it was just the small ones that did. Our climate is much colder throughout most of the year so it would be much harder even for the smaller ones survive I'm sure. Nevertheless what that post shows is once again stupid people thinking stupid stuff up without realising just how big the knock-on effect would be. I honestly can't see it happening but then again who knows.


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## angelgirls29 (Jul 10, 2010)

I haven't read it all but didn't they say there were loads of Anti's there?
OF COURSE they will be biased... :devil:


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Blurboy said:


> Nevertheless what that post shows is once again stupid people thinking stupid stuff up without realising just how big the knock-on effect would be. I honestly can't see it happening but then again who knows.


Have you ever been to South Africa? 

Just the "stupid" problem of invasives is to my mind well illustrated out there, both in terms of plant ad animal life. It's causing havoc, the fynbos is practically gone and replaced by stuff like pine and spruce and you'd probably recognise most of the western cape vegetation from your average european garden. 

In the UK it's easy to assume that invasives are no big deal. We are somewhat lucky in having a bizarre climate for such a space of land, and being isolated from the EU mainland is a big help too. Our flora is relatively young too, and we don't have many endemic species to lose compared to places like Socotra or Madagascar. 

A good place to start is to read some of the work by Julian Olden, LeRoy Poff and Micheal McKinney - they termed it "biotic homogenisation", and it's largely exasperated by urbanisation. 

It's a very real problem, and I have to say that whilst I think blanket coverage is a bit unrealistic for the whole of the EU, the thought of the average hobbyist having a few less species to collect doesn't bother me in the slightest. Everyone is facing cuts and losing jobs etc, so a few less reptile importers is a shame but at the same time, everyone else is getting shafted as it is anyway.


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

I'll still keep whatever i like to be honest.


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

I think this ball will start rolling and everyone with something to lose will get behind this fight with grim determination and steel resolve, EU suits will not dictate what animals Britains keep and breed in their own homes we will not submit to more paper work more tax's more inspections and we shall fight to the last small child!!.

But more lightly everyone will simmer down and get a nice cup of tea, after all were not French.:lol2:


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## JurassicParking (Nov 20, 2010)

This may be the wrong place to put this but is it about the threat pets can have to the wildlife? What about cats? Don't our kitties kill lots of birds (Stephens Island Wren story) and we still keep a hold of those?

Suburban birds have deadly stalker: your cat

I know thats American but we too have cats and such.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

I say just ban and cull all animals great, small, wild or in captivity and be done with it and get in the replicas in blade runner. I for one have got myself a rubics snake and its bloody ace I can tell you.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Following on from exacly the same threads, which has been stikied in the other forum sections, I would not be so sure that corn snakes would not thrive our climate, there is supposed to be two areas in the uk inhabited with them? 
There is a facebook group that will not allow to post on this forum but it is called reptile keepers unite, although it affects other people who keep birds cats and even dogs up to a point it may be worth joining, 

I am not sure if it is the same case with invert keepers but us reptile keepers have been advised to join the some of the groups I think are called the IHS AND FHS (not sure what they stand for), all details are there, I just thought I would share. 
Hopefully nothing will come of it, but dont just sit there and hope for the best, SHOW THEM WHAT YOUR MADE OF!:no1:

Poxicator could I be so bold as to suggest like in the other sections this be made a temporary stikie so it does not get lost, after all it is and could affect everyones lives greatly, especially you excellent invert keepers.: victory:


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> Following on from exacly the same threads, which has been stikied in the other forum sections, I would not be so sure that corn snakes would not thrive our climate, there is supposed to be two areas in the uk inhabited with them?


this being true then some restrictions are quite justified yes?



> There is a facebook group that will not allow to post on this forum but it is called reptile keepers unite, although it affects other people who keep birds cats and even dogs up to a point it may be worth joining,


not on facebook


> Hopefully nothing will come of it, but dont just sit there and hope for the best, SHOW THEM WHAT YOUR MADE OF!


what by joining a facebook group? besides I tend to agree that some restrictions should be imposed. I would rather wait to see what the proposed restrictions actually are, rather than say a blanket no to it based on nothing more than ruma and hear say.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> this being true then some restrictions are quite justified yes?
> 
> I will agree some may be justified, my concern is that the hobby may in time eventually dissapear.
> 
> ...


Facebook is really just a way to spread the word, what I placed about the IHS or what ever is pretty much listed on that group, that is where proposals of what we can do in the mean time are being discussed, : victory:
I never stated it would be the right thing to do, but surely no harm can come from discussing the matter at hand.
and what "said" people who don't know what to do can do, if some restrictions are made 
It mainly is to just point out that it is not a minority of people who keep these animals as it is thought?

Like you say though lets wait and see what the proposals are, if buying licenicing e.t.c to keep my beleoved animals then I will do it.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

why the angry red?



> I will agree some may be justified, my concern is that the hobby may in time eventually dissapear


thats a bit of a jump from restrictions to total dissapearence



> I never stated it would be the right thing to do, but surely no harm can come from discussing the matter at hand.
> and what "said" people who don't know what to do can do, if some restrictions are made


and I never said it was the right or wrong thing to do so.....
but at least I can now as someone who does not know what to do about any such proposed restrictions, can say what I can do and that is join a face book group but if I am not a face book type of bloke I guess Im stuffed.:sad:


> It mainly is to just point out that it is not a minority of people who keep these animals as it is thought?


apart from the fact that exotic pet keepers are in the minority of people, and I am willing to bet that not more than half the people in europe even keep pets let alone exotic ones making us even more of a minority.



> Like you say though lets wait and see what the proposals are, if buying licenicing e.t.c to keep my beleoved animals then I will do it.


well quite


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> why the angry red?
> 
> 
> thats a bit of a jump from restrictions to total dissapearence
> ...


 
I am not going to get into a silly argument over why I used red, it was meant to be an entire quote where I was attempting to discuss what I thought your concern may have been? it was just to differentiate the text that is all. 

It was a suggestion, if your not a facebook guy then that is not my problem I am sorry, I was only pointing out there was a group where it is being discussed:roll:

and the last point possibly is true, but many of the rfuk members will and have stated they know of at least another 10 keepers who dont even use the forums. I am sure many wont know ten but many claim too know people who dont use the forums. 
but at times like this I feel we look to ourselves first.
that is just my view.

rather than criticise me for writing in red and try to find fault with what I have tried to let people know, why dont you do something more constructive.: victory:


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

It's the end for those arrogant British son's of hamsters and there beloved pets :whistling2: that or an end to planting weeds from other countries in our back yards.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> I am not going to get into a silly argument over why I used red, it was meant to be an entire quote where I was attempting to discuss what I thought your concern may have been? it was just to differentiate the text that is all.
> 
> It was a suggestion, if your not a facebook guy then that is not my problem I am sorry, I was only pointing out there was a group where it is being discussed:roll:
> 
> ...


someone has hangs up don't they?
Is it not ok to question anything anymore? We don't all have to agree with every little thing you know. I would rather wait and see what pans out fro m all this than to go in guns blazeing and not knowing for sure what is actually going to happen. Its all well and good prepareing for the worse but a wast of time if the worse doen't even come close.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> someone has hangs up don't they?
> Is it not ok to question anything anymore? We don't all have to agree with every little thing you know. I would rather wait and see what pans out fro m all this than to go in guns blazeing and not knowing for sure what is actually going to happen. Its all well and good prepareing for the worse but a wast of time if the worse doen't even come close.


 
what the hell are you blabbering on about now. :gasp: of course you can ask questions but the way you are implying it is as if I AM WHOLLY responsible for the whole facebook thing. 

Infact, if I hear or read anything else I will be sure NOT to let the invert section know as it is clear you, whoever you are dont really seem to care, infact I am having doubts that you care for your animals either if this is your attitude. (but I could be wrong)

Good luck nonetheless the other invert keepers, who are actually concerned.

*yawns and walks out of thread*


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

also if you have been reading Chris Newmans posts it is not a case of IF it is When! they are going ahead with it, how it is going to affect us invert keepers I dont know, but I suppose we can wait and see.


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## norfendz (Jun 30, 2008)

they cant seriously ban ppl from keeping reptiles can they?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

norfendz said:


> they cant seriously ban ppl from keeping reptiles can they?


It would take a while but in time eventually putting restrictions in place it could affect alot of bird, mamal, cat, dog, invert and reptile owners, especially if they are not native to the country you live, remember this is not a decison for our goverment is making.
It is a decison being discussed as and I quote the eurocrats. This affects the EU as a whole.
because we are part of the EU we would have to do as we are told  

How they would enforce it is a mystery to me, but rest assuerd these eurocrats will discuss it.
and make licenising and restrcitons so expensive it would not even be worth keeping you animals.

but as said all we can do is await and see what the propsitions are.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

norfendz said:


> they cant seriously ban ppl from keeping reptiles can they?


Not just reptiles. Inverts too*.

And they don't have to ban you from KEEPING them.

They just have to say "Ok, from X date, pet shops may no longer buy species on this blacklist (or may only buy species from this whitelist)."
Then, they add the next layer - "From Y date, pet shops may no longer sell species that are not permitted to be bought or sold by the list."
Then throw in the next layer - "From Z date, it will not be legal to offer to buy or sell species that are not permitted to be bought or sold by the list, whether you are a shop or otherwise."

If you can't *buy* the animals, and you can't *sell* the ones you've got, you're unlikely to *breed* them... and then all they have to do is wait for the ones already existing to die of old age.

They have time to be patient.

* Implications of this:
Feeder insects are generally non-native species. They could potentially be invasive. Mr. Pet Shop can't sell you your feeders, because they're illegal... best get out there with a net to see what you can catch in your garden, eh?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Not just reptiles. Inverts too*.
> 
> And they don't have to ban you from KEEPING them.
> 
> ...


Just out of curiosity, as we all know how intelligent Ssthisto is lol, do you honestly think they will enforce some regulations? I am a little worried myself I will admit.


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## norfendz (Jun 30, 2008)

i dont see any reason to do anything like this i mean what is keeping exotic animals doing that is so bad they want to ban it? :censor: this, they can try to take my animals they wont have much luck


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

norfendz said:


> i dont see any reason to do anything like this i mean what is keeping exotic animals doing that is so bad they want to ban it? :censor: this, they can try to take my animals they wont have much luck


there are ALOT! of anti reptile people out there.
and I am not even sure they know how this hobby-enthusiasm has came so far and how many keepers actually keep, not all enthusiasts use the forums, I know of at least another 5 personally.
All we can do is sit and wait.


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## norfendz (Jun 30, 2008)

so when they planning on announcing whats happening? ya kno its just my luck that ive been working hard and spending every penny i have near enough on getting the animals that ive got and just starting to breed them then something like this comes along :bash:


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

I'm just fed up with everyone going 'they can try to take my reptiles but they will have to get over my dead body' and all this other crap its like come on get real!


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

norfendz said:


> so when they planning on announcing whats happening? ya kno its just my luck that ive been working hard and spending every penny i have near enough on getting the animals that ive got and just starting to breed them then something like this comes along :bash:


in honesty I am not sure? I think there is a meeting on the 15th of this month and then another somewhere else in mid June, the bottom line is these restricons could be enforced before the year 2012 if I read the snake section thread correct.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Bexzini said:


> I'm just fed up with everyone going 'they can try to take my reptiles but they will have to get over my dead body' and all this other crap its like come on get real!


well exacly, if buying licencing is what it takes then fair doos. 
but not everyone will be able to afford it. 
 it is also going to have a major impact on those exotic businesses. 
if they enforce it I am pretty sure they can find ways to make you co-operate lol
(no matter how much you love your animals)
the bottom line is this is a very real threat, and if it is something that is overlooked, it is still a threat, and doing nothing about it like bone lazy people, they will say oh I should have tried to do something about it.


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## norfendz (Jun 30, 2008)

Bexzini said:


> I'm just fed up with everyone going 'they can try to take my reptiles but they will have to get over my dead body' and all this other crap its like come on get real!


how dya mean


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

norfendz said:


> how dya mean


 
I am sure they will have thought about all this, these people are not completely thick! if someone knocked on the door wanting to seize your animals I am pretty sure they would have the means to make you, coperate.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Just out of curiosity, as we all know how intelligent Ssthisto is lol, do you honestly think they will enforce some regulations? I am a little worried myself I will admit.


Well, let's put it this way. A similar piece of legislation came into force back in 2007, stopping people from selling or keeping certain native European species of animals. 

I don't see anyone in the UK breeding or keeping many-if-any of those species any more... or at least, they're not _admitting _to it.


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## norfendz (Jun 30, 2008)

if they knocked on my door they would be shaking hands with a kitchen knife lol jkin but im not sure what i make of all this i dont know wether to lean towards the fact that it could happen or to take it as the type of emails i get daily telling me that a certain website has a big virus or telling me to send this to 15 people if i dont want an old woman to appear in my bedroom at half 3 in the morning and kill me horribly with a cheese grater:whistling2:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

norfendz said:


> if they knocked on my door they would be shaking hands with a kitchen knife lol jkin but im not sure what i make of all this i dont know wether to lean towards the fact that it could happen or to take it as the type of emails i get daily telling me that a certain website has a big virus or telling me to send this to 15 people if i dont want an old woman to appear in my bedroom at half 3 in the morning and kill me horribly with a cheese grater:whistling2:


 
from what I know about Chris Newman you can take it as 100% truth I found his introduction thread, if you bear with me it will give you some of his history. 
He is a very high up guy in the exotic world and if it concerns him I am pretty sure we should all be worried.
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...7-hi-chris-newman.html?highlight=Chris+Newman

and as our good moderator has pointed out it has happned before, and from what Leecbo was saying they nearly done it a few years ago, the only thing that stoped it was the goverment then relised they would have to get rid of there own pets on the day of the decison. but this time it is not our goverment is it?


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## norfendz (Jun 30, 2008)

dont tell me that i really dont need another thing in my life to be worrying me atm im gunna have grey hair by the time im 24 if this keeps up


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

norfendz said:


> dont tell me that i really dont need another thing in my life to be worrying me atm im gunna have grey hair by the time im 24 if this keeps up


lol hey I am only 21 tomorrow and I am going grey and this is off the last few days! lol 
I dont know how it affects invert keepers but reptile keepers have been advised to join some reptile associations. attend meetings if possible to discuss the matter, it will give an impression we are not a mirnority who keeps them and to be fair it is actually quite a popular hobby over here in the UK and enthusiasm for your loved animals.: victory:

that is probibly our best bet for now, if you know any keepers, join the reptile keepers unite on facebook and send an invite to other keepers you may know who know nothing about it, it is not effective but it is good at helping spread the word.


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

norfendz said:


> if they knocked on my door they would be shaking hands with a kitchen knife lol jkin but im not sure what i make of all this i dont know wether to lean towards the fact that it could happen or to take it as the type of emails i get daily telling me that a certain website has a big virus or telling me to send this to 15 people if i dont want an old woman to appear in my bedroom at half 3 in the morning and kill me horribly with a cheese grater:whistling2:


Forward the email or I'm setting off to yours right now :whistling2:


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## norfendz (Jun 30, 2008)

then these petition things should be made sticky on every section perhaps?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

garlicpickle said:


> Forward the email or I'm setting off to yours right now :whistling2:


lol :yeahright:


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## norfendz (Jun 30, 2008)

garlicpickle said:


> Forward the email or I'm setting off to yours right now :whistling2:


i only have 14 friends will you let me off?


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

norfendz said:


> i only have 14 friends will you let me off?


OK just this once.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

norfendz said:


> then these petition things should be made sticky on every section perhaps?


the thing is petitions may be useless if they reach the wrong hands and they lickley most probibly will in the end, I have signed them just incase BUT I cannot see how one country is gonna make a difference to the EU as a whole.


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> Well, let's put it this way. A similar piece of legislation came into force back in 2007, stopping people from selling or keeping certain native European species of animals.
> 
> I don't see anyone in the UK breeding or keeping many-if-any of those species any more... or at least, they're not _admitting _to it.


What species is this?



norfendz said:


> how dya mean


I mean other people are essentially threatening the authorities saying that if these govornment enforcers try to take their animals they will essentially bludger them to death. I'm sorry but its ridiculous. If anyone would go to your house to collect your animal (which wouldnt happen anyway would cost millions) its not going to be the people that made up this rule its going to be people that are employed to do their dirty work.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Bexzini said:


> What species is this?
> 
> 
> 
> I mean other people are essentially threatening the authorities saying that if these govornment enforcers try to take their animals they will essentially bludger them to death. I'm sorry but its ridiculous. If anyone would go to your house to collect your animal (which wouldnt happen anyway would cost millions) its not going to be the people that made up this rule its going to be people that are employed to do their dirty work.


 
to be fair if the goverment wanted to fork out they could deal with it in a week, they would just have the army sweep the country and use what ever the police force was not, so really although people say they would not because it would cost money, there is always the thought that they could do it if they really wanted too lol.
in that process, they could probibly find most illegal immigrints too???
which in the longrun would save the goverment millions.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Bexzini said:


> What species is this?


Species plural, not singular.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...ion/55135-eps-legislation-what-pet-shops.html

That's got a partial list.


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> Species plural, not singular.
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...ion/55135-eps-legislation-what-pet-shops.html
> 
> That's got a partial list.


Christ I had no idea it was so many


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Bexzini said:


> Christ I had no idea it was so many


That was the EPS legislation that passed years ago, too. 

At this point the new proposed legislation hasn't been fixed as to whether there will be a EU-wide whitelist, an EU-wide blacklist, a region-based whitelist or a region-based blacklist, let alone a definite idea of what might be on it or what might not.


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

As hardly any tarantulas could survive are winters I can't see this effecting me as as dodge as this country is I can't see them approving a law which is so general to be fair its reasons like this we should opt out the eu , and to be fair it wast the conservatives that approved the dda and even they feel thus needs changing to not be on breed and more aimed toward owners this alone gives me a little trust that a Tory government wouldn't pass such a stupid law so hope this is the case, I can't see this helping are economy at all aswell so can't see this comming in to play anytime soon , gotta love how governments work tho like Theres not better things which need dealing with were being invaded unfprtamtly not by foreign animals if such a law was imposed so generally would that not mean anything native to Europe would be allowed here


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

jaykickboxer said:


> As hardly any tarantulas could survive are winters I can't see this effecting me as as dodge as this country is I can't see them approving a law which is so general to be fair its reasons like this we should opt out the eu , and to be fair it wast the conservatives that approved the dda and even they feel thus needs changing to not be on breed and more aimed toward owners this alone gives me a little trust that a Tory government wouldn't pass such a stupid law so hope this is the case, I can't see this helping are economy at all aswell so can't see this comming in to play anytime soon , gotta love how governments work tho like Theres not better things which need dealing with were being invaded unfprtamtly not by foreign animals if such a law was imposed so generally would that not mean anything native to Europe would be allowed here


beleive me I sincerely hope you are right.: victory:


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> That was the EPS legislation that passed years ago, too.
> 
> At this point the new proposed legislation hasn't been fixed as to whether there will be a EU-wide whitelist, an EU-wide blacklist, a region-based whitelist or a region-based blacklist, let alone a definite idea of what might be on it or what might not.


To be fair there nothing amazing on that list and if u was to breed something like a rebelled toad it wouldst be hard to buy 2 more from say pet's at home


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

jaykickboxer said:


> To be fair there nothing amazing on that list and if u was to breed something like a rebelled toad it wouldst be hard to buy 2 more from say pet's at home


Might be nothing amazing to you but I can't imagine everyone will agree!


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> beleive me I sincerely hope you are right.: victory:


If the government can't even get to grips with the pitbull situation what chance have they got with a few inverts I can imagine them excavating a few babbons and Singapore blues for idling purposes could be entertaining


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

jaykickboxer said:


> If the government can't even get to grips with the pitbull situation what chance have they got with a few inverts I can imagine them excavating a few babbons and Singapore blues for idling purposes could be entertaining


:lol2: now that i would like to see


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

Bexzini said:


> Might be nothing amazing to you but I can't imagine everyone will agree!


I can there pretty plain looking to be fair most have other animals that look very similar only better such as the green.tree frogs they just look like small skinny whites , anyways i see these I'm wholesalers all the time the same as rebelled toads so can't see that making any difference


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Bexzini said:


> :lol2: now that i would like to see


indeed 



jaykickboxer said:


> I can there pretty plain looking to be fair most have other animals that look very similar only better such as the green.tree frogs they just look like small skinny whites , anyways i see these I'm wholesalers all the time the same as rebelled toads so can't see that making any difference


you actually have a valid point, but as our moderator has pointed out they could realisticly hit the pet trade meaning us breeding our animals would lickely be of no value or purpose. and our curent animals just dying of old age.  or other illnises.
but time will tell: victory:


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> indeed
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It would be like the old days meets and stuff were people sold stuff can u imagine being into animals like tarantulas before the internet must have been hard


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

jaykickboxer said:


> It would be like the old days meets and stuff were people sold stuff can u imagine being into animals like tarantulas before the internet must have been hard


 
yeah thats a concern, the hobby has came a very long way and then those dictators, who I might add always preach against dictators e.t.c and always for democracy are quite happy to sit there and dictate to us.
pfffffffffffft they have became the very thing they were fighting against, and you can garuntee it is probibly not the only hoibby, enthusiasm they will hit either down the line.


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## chalky76 (Aug 23, 2007)

How's about this. My interests/hobbies are: snakes, Ts, Shooting and mixed Martial arts. 

A while back they were looking to ban mixed martial arts because it was too violent!!! 

Now the government are reviewing private ownership of firearms, this is because of the tragic events which Derrick Bird brought about. Believe me firearms are needed to keep rabbit and fox populations down otherwise agricultural food items will become more expensive as farmers will need to protect their harvest in other less economical ways (you and I will pick up the tab) 

And now they are looking at restricting exotic animal ownership.

I just can't win, I bet it I took up chess, knitting an/or painting there would be a review considering banning these as well!!!!!!!!!!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

jaykickboxer said:


> To be fair there nothing amazing on that list


That was only a partial list - and as an European species enthusiast, my partner would disagree with you on "nothing amazing".


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

chalky76 said:


> How's about this. My interests/hobbies are: snakes, Ts, Shooting and mixed Martial arts.
> 
> A while back they were looking to ban mixed martial arts because it was too violent!!!
> 
> ...


 
That is rubbish, anyone who actually does martial arts knows it is not just about the fighting, that part is a bonus.
and martial arts fighters are actually in my view the safest., if used correctly.
and I had best start going to knitting classes or something lol


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## chalky76 (Aug 23, 2007)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> That is rubbish, anyone who actually does martial arts knows it is not just about the fighting, that part is a bonus.
> and martial arts fighters are actually in my view the safest., if used correctly.
> and I had best start going to knitting classes or something lol



Mmmmm it's not rubbish. I think it was about 2005 or 2006 that they considered banning MMA (not all martial arts) as it was deemed blood thirsty. Luckily nothing more happened and I have to say (bar a few rotten apples) martial artists (regardless of discipline or style) tend to be a really good bunch.

And regarding knitting I wouldn't bother as they will probably ban it soon enough because the knitting needles are just too dangerous or something


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> yeah thats a concern, the hobby has came a very long way and then those dictators, who I might add always preach against dictators e.t.c and always for democracy are quite happy to sit there and dictate to us.
> pfffffffffffft they have became the very thing they were fighting against, and you can garuntee it is probibly not the only hoibby, enthusiasm they will hit either down the line.


this.


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## samhack (Jan 11, 2009)

I actually thought this was a proposal to ban invasive species in certain countries held in the European union. A lot of animals should escape the list in regards to our harsh winters. Most reptiles would escape this list apart from the unfortunate few species that have shown an amazing ability to adapt. Of course this is based on the theory that the eu will be looking at individual countries and not the eu as a whole as that cause more species to be banned due to the countries with hotter climates with mild winters.

As for inverts, again I'm pretty sure not many of the more popular species could survive our winters, hence everyone getting worked up and the first sign of cold weather and slapping heat mats against all their enclosures.

Personally though I can see why they are considering this and I'm not against it. They are simply trying to protect the native wildlife of their lands. Isn't this something we would all like to do? As far as I can see this isn't a direct attack keepers or any branch of the hobbies, just a way to try and protect what we already had before people starting moving species from one side of the world to another.

Australia have a ban on anything not native to their country and its been well established. I suppose from a hobby point of view they have a very wide range of diverse life in their country as it is, and due to their climate a lot of species could prove a risk to this. Like baldpoodle said before me, it would really be better to wait and see what is proposed first!


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

chalky76 said:


> Mmmmm it's not rubbish. I think it was about 2005 or 2006 that they considered banning MMA (not all martial arts) as it was deemed blood thirsty. Luckily nothing more happened and I have to say (bar a few rotten apples) martial artists (regardless of discipline or style) tend to be a really good bunch.
> 
> *And regarding knitting I wouldn't bother as they will probably ban it soon enough because the knitting needles are just too dangerous or something*


 

probibly:whistling2:
I was not saying what you said was rubbish lol I just meant if they did that then it would be rubbish: victory:
you just can't seem to do anything anymore, I suppose you could knit but you may need a licence:gasp:


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

if the proposal was accepted and put in place the whole hobby would have to evolve and adapt.

as i said earlier in the thread i used to collect Garters, Ribbons, Black Rats, Milksnakes and Corns (among others) when i lived in Ontario....they survive even -45c winters easily.......so there is a big (if not the biggest) financial chunk out of the hobby as it stands now.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> if the proposal was accepted and put in place the whole hobby would have to evolve and adapt.
> 
> as i said earlier in the thread i used to collect Garters, Ribbons, Black Rats, Milksnakes and Corns (among others) when i lived in Ontario....they survive even -45c winters easily.......so there is a big (if not the biggest) financial chunk out of the hobby as it stands now.


-45c that is facintating:gasp:


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

The one thing I find lacking in these discussions are arguments for why we feel we should be allowed to keep whatever species of animal.

I mean, more than just "oooh the government is trying to stop us" or "damn anti's" etc. 

Why do people feel we should be able to keep numerous species of animals? 

Is it our right?

What about the rights of the animals? 

I've been feeling a bit "_deep ecology" _lately, I'm not sure how many of you will be familiar with it, but it's worth looking up. It can sound a bit hippy arm waving, but it does make you wonder about the consequences of removing individuals from populations of animals etc. 

My own thoughts centre something similar to "just because we can, doesn't mean we should". There's also the idea about "tragedy of the commons"...sort of like how the average hobbyist is not doing much damage, but collectively we are causing a major hassle. 

Then again, I've read similar calls for this EU proposal sort of thing aimed at gardeners too, on account of the massive scale biotic homogenisation that some argue horticultural practices are driving.


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## samhack (Jan 11, 2009)

I'm sure you may be able to get the odd survivor at -45c but it wouldn't be a regular thing surely. That's well below freezing. I know garter snakes will survive that every winter but I'm not convinced corn snakes would thrive? Inverts wouldn't survive that though so at least they would be safe.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

samhack said:


> IAs for inverts, again I'm pretty sure not many of the more popular species could survive our winters


How about: 

_Schistocerca gregaria
Locusta migratoria
Acheta domesticus
Gryllus bimaculatus
Tenebrio molitor
Galleria melonella
Zophobas morio_

Most popular invert species out there, I'm betting....


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

GRB said:


> The one thing I find lacking in these discussions are arguments for why we feel we should be allowed to keep whatever species of animal.
> 
> I mean, more than just "oooh the government is trying to stop us" or "damn anti's" etc.
> 
> ...


maybey your right, and if this was the case many could argue iresponsibility, but if regulations were put into place, and the numerous animals that are now involved have in the past been worked hard at to reach where we are now, I am pretty sure that hard work wont go down well if or when it is destroyed or lost.

but if regulations were put into place, and licenicing was needed, to show the deep commitment of true passionate hobbyists I can go with that, but that might not even happen at some point down the line.

have I missed something I am sure I have but cant remember lol: victory:


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## samhack (Jan 11, 2009)

GRB said:


> The one thing I find lacking in these discussions are arguments for why we feel we should be allowed to keep whatever species of animal.
> 
> I mean, more than just "oooh the government is trying to stop us" or "damn anti's" etc.
> 
> ...


What about species where their natural habitat is at risk from us?
Many countries develop land without care for what they are destroying. That may be a reason in my eyes. Its better to have a species continued in captivity than loose it from the face of the planet completely.


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## chalky76 (Aug 23, 2007)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> probibly:whistling2:
> I was not saying what you said was rubbish lol I just meant if they did that then it would be rubbish: victory:
> you just can't seem to do anything anymore, I suppose you could knit but you may need a licence:gasp:


Doh I misread that then.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

chalky76 said:


> Doh I misread that then.


haha no worries it happens to me all the time, it is one of the down falls of the internet I suppose, sorry my fault too.:whistling2:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

samhack said:


> What about species where their natural habitat is at risk from us?
> Many countries develop land without care for what they are destroying. That may be a reason in my eyes. Its better to have a species continued in captivity than loose it from the face of the planet completely.


A valid point:no1:


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

samhack said:


> What about species where their natural habitat is at risk from us?
> Many countries develop land without care for what they are destroying. That may be a reason in my eyes. Its better to have a species continued in captivity than loose it from the face of the planet completely.


But captive conservation is far from ideal, and to equate what we are doing with true conservation is IMHO, incorrect.

Collectively, we are a bunch of people who know basically squat about the animals we keep. I man no offense, I'm just being realistic.

Genetic health isn't currently a concern of the the average hobbyist. Locality data isn't provided by many suppliers, and even then it's usually just at country scale. 

Spot quiz: 

Where exactly in Trinidad does the _Psalmopoeus cambridgei _occur? 

What is a sustainable minimal breeding population for _Avicularia sp. "Guyana" _in order for a captive breeding program to preserve genetic diversity?

What is the diagnostic feature of _Brachypelma _that seperates them from _Aphonopelma? 

_These are just examples - hell, I don't know them off the top of my head, yet they would be important to conservation managers (perhaps less so Q3, but I think I raise a point).

The thing that amuses me as well, is that people assume that the EU, and the UK are somehow _good _at conservation, and that Brazil and South Africa, etc are _bad _at conservation. 

It's the other way around. The US, UK, EU, are pretty miserable. We have half the battle countries like Brazil face in terms of endemic species, human population growth, GDP issues, etc, and yet if you look at our track record for species and habitat conservation we are failing just as hard as those developing countries are. 

Hell, in Suth Africa you need a permit to pick flowers from a park, and I did hear that keeping pets out there is tightly controlled. I certainly didn't see many pet dogs or cats out there, unlike the UK (where pet cats are actually destroying many wild bird populations). 

To suggest that they don't care is simply inaccurate - they do, but unlike the UK where people have disposable income to pay for things like pets, in many regions they are facing unprecented urban growth, struggling from natural distasters, and trying to conserve land that in the eyes of starving locals, is simply "waste ground" that could be used to grow food for them, or burnt for fuel or sold, etc.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

samhack said:


> but I'm not convinced corn snakes would thrive?


you dont have to be convinced

the fact is that large populations of them live throughout the northern US states and as far as Canada is concerned there is a large and healthy native population around the Thousand Islands/ Rideau area

for 7 years i worked for the Ontario Department for the Environment doing reptile and amphibian surveys so it was my job to know :lol2:

-45c is a regular occurrence in that area with long periods of time around -25c

You can always get in touch with my old boss Stefan Foerster if you want further proof :2thumb:


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## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

At this rate the only thing we will be able to do is sit very still on a chair and breathe. That of course will be taxed as soon they will be charging us for use of oxygen and the carbon dioxide we emit when exhaling will be taxed as a greenhouse gas.....




God I sound like my da :devil:


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

GRB said:


> Where exactly in Trinidad does the _Psalmopoeus cambridgei _occur?


Mostly the bits with tree's :Na_Na_Na_Na:

What Grant said about the developing world is bang on, but now days though the net we see more and more people in the poorer parts of the world taking more interest in wild animals and that offen leads to them keeping herps inverts ect.

Which does raise the question about invasive species again as many of these folks seem to be keeping many of the same "hobby bread and butter" species that will do in the EU US ect, and not just their own natives, surely there is a bigger time bomb waiting to go off elsewere then could in Europe?.


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## samhack (Jan 11, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> you dont have to be convinced
> 
> the fact is that large populations of them live throughout the northern US states and as far as Canada is concerned there is a large and healthy native population around the Thousand Islands/ Rideau area
> 
> ...


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

MustLoveSnails said:


> At this rate the only thing we will be able to do is sit very still on a chair and breathe. That of course will be taxed as soon they will be charging us for use of oxygen and the carbon dioxide we emit when exhaling will be taxed as a greenhouse gas.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yup it is true though, if they can get away with it they will do it. 
and all the other things on top of that
to use your toilet
to sit
to read- they may blame global warming for that next:whistling2:
to stand
to type. 
the list is endless  but I am sure they have thought about this and I bet it has crossed some of there minds you can bet.


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## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> yup it is true though, if they can get away with it they will do it.
> and all the other things on top of that
> to use your toilet
> to sit
> ...


 Don't forget chair tax, only rich people can have chairs, they are a luxury :whistling2:

Feminine products for the monthly visit have VAT on them, which is meant for "luxury products", chocolate chip cookies apparently do not (although chocolate biscuits do). A country where that stuff is a luxury, and is taxed, yet some cookies are not. Makes about as much sense as a pig in a library.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

MustLoveSnails said:


> Don't forget chair tax, only rich people can have chairs, they are a luxury :whistling2:
> 
> Feminine products for the monthly visit have VAT on them, which is meant for "luxury products", chocolate chip cookies apparently do not (although chocolate biscuits do). A country where that stuff is a luxury, and is taxed, yet some cookies are not. Makes about as much sense as a pig in a library.


we have intelligent pigs:no1: they are sitting in the house of commons: victory:
dont you forget about the greed of all that tax hooo haar caliming unessacery things and then that millionair MP who claimed for tipex! wtf , it was not just labor!
yet everyone seems to forget about these things as time goes by.


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## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> we have intelligent pigs:no1: they are sitting in the house of commons: victory:
> dont you forget about the greed of all that tax hooo haar caliming unessacery things and then that millionair MP who claimed for tipex! wtf , it was not just labor!
> yet everyone seems to forget about these things as time goes by.


I would never accuse those particular pigs of being intelligent... : victory:

Trust me, I never forget these things, I catalogue them in mental filing cabinets with a system whose complexity rivals the dewey decimal system


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

MustLoveSnails said:


> I would never accuse those particular pigs of being intelligent... : victory:
> 
> Trust me, I never forget these things, I catalogue them in mental filing cabinets with a system whose complexity rivals the dewey decimal system


well when you put it that way :whistling2: lol


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## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> well when you put it that way :whistling2: lol


 Am I coming across as mental again? Oh dear :2thumb:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

MustLoveSnails said:


> Am I coming across as mental again? Oh dear :2thumb:


no no definately not, you actually make alot of sense :lol2::no1:


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## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> no no definately not, you actually make alot of sense :lol2::no1:


 
:gasp: Makes a change :lol2:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

MustLoveSnails said:


> :gasp: Makes a change :lol2:


it does:gasp::lol2:


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## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> it does:gasp::lol2:


 
:gasp:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

MustLoveSnails said:


> :gasp:


lmao but we wouldnt have you any other way :flrt::flrt::flrt:


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## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> lmao but we wouldnt have you any other way :flrt::flrt::flrt:


awww shucks :blush:



:lol2:


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