# Wing-Clipping Parrots poll



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Ok, after my posts on L 'n' D's pet shop thread in this section, & me voicing my concerns on them selling wing-clipped baby parrots, I've decided to make a poll to show Luke & Daniel the views of others who may not have seen or posted on their thread.

So here goes, do you agree or disagree with wing-clipping parrots, especially newly weaned baby parrots?


----------



## white (May 16, 2009)

to me it would be like giving the bird a disability,birds are meant to fly.i can understand peoples concerns about losing their birds through open windows and crashing into things,but i think it's about adapting you're home like you would for a child.You wouldn't chop a childs legs off to keep them out of trouble!


----------



## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

white said:


> to me it would be like giving the bird a disability,birds are meant to fly.i can understand peoples concerns about losing their birds through open windows and crashing into things,but i think it's about adapting you're home like you would for a child.You wouldn't chop a childs legs off to keep them out of trouble!


I think it is a cruel and unneccessary practise and if i could keep parrots which i would love to do but i am allergic my birds would be free range but not wing clipped at all. My mat ehas parrots and she wont have any otheir wings clipped and they all fly free in her home so to me it just cruel.


----------



## FreddiesMum (Jan 10, 2007)

Cruel practice.... birds have wings as they are supposed to fly!


----------



## Sarah-Jayne (Jul 4, 2007)

I think it should be banned birds are meant to fly, if you don't want a pet that flies, don't get a bird!


----------



## samurai (Sep 9, 2009)

Sarah-Jayne said:


> I think it should be banned birds are meant to fly, if you don't want a pet that flies, don't get a bird!


Absolutely :2thumb:

I've also read about potential damage to the bird's wings that can make some birds unable to fly as they don't develope properly 

I think far too many pet owners have rediculous expectations of animals, they should be taken for what they are not altered to make them more convenient to live with


----------



## paulajo (Oct 13, 2010)

Birds are meant to fly! If we cant except how these creatures are meant to be, then we shouldnt have them. 

To see a parrot fly is the most wonderful thing but watching it have to try to manouver around a cage using its beak is so sad. 

Why would anyone wish to restrict an an animal in that way? Should we keep dogs chained to a post in the garden or ensure theres nothing to climb in a primates cage, just so we can see them better?

There would be an uproar so why is it acceptable for wing clipping to be carried out?

I for one, and i know a few others, would not wish to buy an animal that has been deliberately 'disabled' my option would be for the one that had a LIFE!!!! :bash:


----------



## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

lil05 be good if you could give a reason to why you think wing clipping is ok :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## TheProfessor (Apr 19, 2011)

Its a cruel and un-needed act! 

People should consider things other than themselves, Parrots are intelligent animals, and live a long time! its not fair for them to be clipped and spent their life being unable to do what comes natural to them! 
In the wild they fly in large groups, so ideally in captivity they at least be able to fly by themselves and have stimulation and contact with humans! 

A like comparison for humans would be to cut off someone's thumbs! See how they liked it when they couldn't function properly! 
The same for when the parrots wings are clipped!


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Setting myself up for maybe a tarring and feathering here, but: I live in a tower block. Whenever possible, I give my birds freedom within the flat, but if they were to take off for real out of the windows or the balcony door, it would potentially be lethal. I want to emphasise here; when I talk about clipping, I mean responsible, knowledgable *feather* clipping- I've already shared on another thread how one of my cockatiels has been permenantly maimed by an idiot who didn't know what he was doing. I haven't done my guys for a few seasons, now, but if I did, the next moult would sort it anyway. I have to answer those people who have ranted on about 'it's natural for parrots to fly', though; to be honest, in all the years I have kept parrots, I've found they are the laziest flyers ever; if they can walk or climb instead, they will. _You_ may have an idealistic idea about the Joys of Flight; _they_ don't.


EDIT: Oops, almost forgot (mid-rant) the original question; no, I don't think it's ok to clip young birds; they need their full wing function to develop their muscles properly. All my points above related to older birds.


----------



## Nel5on (Aug 24, 2010)

completely disagree with it, my meyers bird was clipped as a baby by her previous owners, ive let her feathers grown back and i actively enourage her to fly, but she wont fly. she doesnt even know she can fly i dont think.


----------



## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

i dont agree with clipping young parrots but i can see that sometimes in older birds they have to be clipped but mainly to do with certain species when the male can become over protective


but would never clip or buy a clipped bird under about 5 unless for a serious reason i have to say tho instead of lnd having them on stands clipped why not buy a couple of large flights 

even hand reared birds can be mixed with others and still stay tame given enough attension :2thumb:


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Nel5on said:


> completely disagree with it, my meyers bird was clipped as a baby by her previous owners, ive let her feathers grown back and i actively enourage her to fly, but she wont fly. she doesnt even know she can fly i dont think.





adamntitch said:


> i dont agree with clipping young parrots but i can see that sometimes in older birds they have to be clipped but mainly to do with certain species when the male can become over protective
> 
> 
> but would never clip or buy a clipped bird under about 5 unless for a serious reason i have to say tho instead of lnd having them on stands clipped why not buy a couple of large flights
> ...


As I said, I don't agree at all with clipping young birds- and the way I was taught was to clip the flight feathers on *one* wing- not enough so that the poor bird can't even land properly, just enough to put it off long-haul flights. It's not even about tameness- the tamest bird in the world can still be startled into flight- the Amazon I had as a teenager in Brazil (stupidly, soppy tame and completely unclipped!) was constantly ending up in tall trees or on roofs, and then having stress trying to figure out how to get back to me. Where I live now, with the traffic and the built up areas ,would be a nightmare in those circumstances.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Nel5on said:


> completely disagree with it, my meyers bird was clipped as a baby by her previous owners, ive let her feathers grown back and i actively enourage her to fly, but she wont fly. she doesnt even know she can fly i dont think.


How sad. Its probably because your Meyers Parrot has no confidence now, after no doubt having a few hard crashes when she was first clipped by the previous owners. This is just one of the many problems that wing-clipping can cause. I hope your Meyers can grow her confidence & start to enjoy flight.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Ron Magpie said:


> As I said, I don't agree at all with clipping young birds- and *the way I was taught was to clip the flight feathers on one wing- not enough so that the poor bird can't even land properly, just enough to put it off long-haul flights*. It's not even about tameness- the tamest bird in the world can still be startled into flight- the Amazon I had as a teenager in Brazil (stupidly, soppy tame and completely unclipped!) was constantly ending up in tall trees or on roofs, and then having stress trying to figure out how to get back to me. Where I live now, with the traffic and the built up areas ,would be a nightmare in those circumstances.


Its better to clip both wings, & to clip alternate primary feathers, so that the parrot is more balanced & controlled in it's decent. But its just not for me.


----------



## Nel5on (Aug 24, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> How sad. Its probably because your Meyers Parrot has no confidence now, after no doubt having a few hard crashes when she was first clipped by the previous owners. This is just one of the many problems that wing-clipping can cause. I hope your Meyers can grow her confidence & start to enjoy flight.


yeah, she has no confidence, if i try and sorta launch her into fly (not really hard just a bit of encouragement) she will cling on for dear life, and it clearly distresses her, i will keep trying to get her to fly, but she will barely even flap her wings, shes a great bird though, i felt so sorry for her hwen i got her, clipped, no toys in her cage at all, apart from 2 bog standard perches.

here she is.


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> Its better to clip both wings, & to clip alternate primary feathers, so that the parrot is more balanced & controlled in it's decent. But its just not for me.


Point taken.


----------



## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

tut tut zooman no answer to my post :gasp:


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Nel5on said:


> yeah, she has no confidence, if i try and sorta launch her into fly (not really hard just a bit of encouragement) she will cling on for dear life, and it clearly distresses her, i will keep trying to get her to fly, but she will barely even flap her wings, shes a great bird though, i felt so sorry for her hwen i got her, clipped, no toys in her cage at all, apart from 2 bog standard perches.
> 
> here she is.
> image


She's lovely mate! And she must have a good relationship with you if she trusts you enough to lie her on her back like that. Good on you for taking her on & giving her the life she deserves! :2thumb:



adamntitch said:


> tut tut zooman no answer to my post :gasp:


Which one Adam, the one about not having them on stands but having them in a flight instead? Yes, that is perfectly do-able, though I guess that for L 'n' D it isn't as impressive as having the parrots within touching distance, or closer! Infact thats a point, we all know parrots can bite, so what if someone gets bitten by a parrot on a stand?


----------



## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> She's lovely mate! And she must have a good relationship with you if she trusts you enough to lie her on her back like that. Good on you for taking her on & giving her the life she deserves! :2thumb:
> 
> 
> 
> Which one Adam, the one about not having them on stands but having them in a flight instead? Yes, that is perfectly do-able, though I guess that for L 'n' D it isn't as impressive as having the parrots within touching distance, or closer! Infact thats a point, we all know parrots can bite, so what if someone gets bitten by a parrot on a stand?


yeah that one and the one about sometimes it is needed for breeding parrots but not babys would love to hear your view on that please x


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

adamntitch said:


> yeah that one and the one about sometimes it is needed for breeding parrots but not babys would love to hear your view on that please x


The only time I would agree with a wing clip is in the case of some male white Cockatoos. Sometimes, the male of white Cockatoo species is highly aggressive towards his intended mate, & he can sometimes kill her. There are a couple of things that can be done to help give the female a head start, such as giving them a nest box that has 2 entrance holes, & clipping the male's wings to slow him down.


----------



## Malymaz (Oct 11, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> The only time I would agree with a wing clip is in the case of some male white Cockatoos. Sometimes, the male of white Cockatoo species is highly aggressive towards his intended mate, & he can sometimes kill her. There are a couple of things that can be done to help give the female a head start, such as giving them a nest box that has 2 entrance holes, & clipping the male's wings to slow him down.


I agree with this! But personally feel if a male cockatoo shows aggression toward the female then he should be removed! But that's a another thread! 
Still it could be considered better than the pinioning that was practise during the 80s and early 90s


----------



## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

When you say wing clipped,is that feather or the bone clipped,if its the bone clipped off surely this should be banned like docking dogs tails.
Its strange how some animals its accepted to be treated in certain ways and yet others not.
Parrots and fish are very much overlooked it would seem.


----------



## Elina (Jul 22, 2009)

My Dad has had parrots for longer then I have been alive and it has always been his view that wing clipping is wrong and though my Dad and I do not agree on everything this is one thing I really do agree with him on. 

-
Elina


----------



## aliburke (Jun 20, 2011)

:naughty::naughty::naughty: wing clipping is bound to be wrong...how would a man like a permanent chastity belt???:whistling2:


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

animalsbeebee said:


> When you say wing clipped,is that feather or the bone clipped,if its the bone clipped off surely this should be banned like docking dogs tails.
> Its strange how some animals its accepted to be treated in certain ways and yet others not.
> Parrots and fish are very much overlooked it would seem.


I mean clipping the flight feathers. Pinioning (where the tip of the wing is removed) isn't done in parrots thankfully (at least not anymore), it tends to be more commonly done to waterfowl, flamingos, etc.

I agree, some species do get forgotten or neglected more than others. If there was a pet shop routinely de-clawing kittens, there would be an uproar.


----------



## kodakira (Jul 11, 2008)

I am with the majority

Strongly disagree with wing clipping.

Neil


----------



## Malymaz (Oct 11, 2010)

Alot of things have changed it the parrot world over the last 20 years i still remember a couple of guys who used to walk around the parrot shows selling buckets of unweaned baby macaws! That has stopped now maybe this is something that will die out in the future also!


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

In the now locked L 'n' D thread, they posted that if they asked their customers the same poll question, the results would be the other way around. This to me says that either the shop has had a big effect on the customers & has made the customers believe that disabling a parrot in this way is ok, ie, the customers must be the sort who don't research things for themselves, or they could just be dim. I don't know, but I do not believe it. I will certainly not be recommending this pet shop to anyone, infact, just the opposite.


----------



## Malymaz (Oct 11, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> In the now locked L 'n' D thread, they posted that if they asked their customers the same poll question, the results would be the other way around. This to me says that either the shop has had a big effect on the customers & has made the customers believe that disabling a parrot in this way is ok, ie, the customers must be the sort who don't research things for themselves, or they could just be dim. I don't know, but I do not believe it. I will certainly not be recommending this pet shop to anyone, infact, just the opposite.


I think alot of buyers these days sadly don't do research on the animals they buy! Just look at how much people pay for animals! I usually sell senegals for between £150 and £200 but the place I regularly sell them to sells them on for nearly £700 and they do sell Because they are told that's the going price same with wing clipping I've heard people being told that it's best to have them clipped until they are settled when in my view if they have been raised properly they should settle very quickly but should remain caged until they do


----------



## Nel5on (Aug 24, 2010)

I have seen people charged £2500 for a blue and gold macaw because thy were told that was the going rate, it makes me sick that some shops will exploit the uneducated people, personally i wouldnt sell any of my babies to anybody who doesnt even know how much they generally go for (takes 2 minutes to find out on the internet) thats the bog standard bit, how the hell are they going to look after the animal itself?


----------



## Disillusioned (Jan 3, 2012)

Coming from someone who previously had 3 aviaries with different birds I personally think this is so cruel. I've had birds that couldn't fly through disability and it's so awful to watch them try...I imagine it would be a similar thing. 
Good for you for bringing light to the subject.


----------



## Parrot Lady (Jan 17, 2012)

I disagree with clipping a parrots wings, especially baby parrots :devil: This will always be one of the most debated topics with companion parrot care givers (I believe that noone owns a parrot, a lot of the time the parrot owns them! lol). I have a Maxi Pionus who is fully flighted, when I first had her as a baby there were a few accidents whereby she flew into the window a couple of times, misjudged her landing site and crash landed. Which obviously was very upsetting for me and more importantly her, however after these initial 'practice flights' she has now become much more of an expert, I took her around the house and showed her the windows and patio doors and let her touch them with her beak so she could learn that they are 'solid'. I believe that to deprive a companion parrot, especially a baby, of one of their natural behaviours is wrong. Before I let her out of her cage I go around the house checking all the windows and doors and always shout to everyone else in the household, I'M LETTING COCO OUT. She flies to her cage if something cause her alarm (again a natural response) and also flies to my shoulder or head if I go to walk out the lounge (she thinks she is going to miss something, she is very nosey!) but otherwise she would much rather be carried on my arm or hitch a lift on my shoulder. When she does fly around the room which isnt that often, she gets herself all excitied and more often than not decides to do a few more laps of the room and then goes straight into her cage for a drink of water, we get all excitied with her and whistle and make excitied noise sounds so she knows that this is a good behaviour, and very good exercise for her, when she flys and gets excitied its as though she forgets how good it makes her feel. Some people assume that clipped parrots cannot fly, which is also incorrect. I will never clip Coco's wings unless there is a medical reason for doing so. Funnily enough there is a new article on Northern Parrots website titled 'Thinking on the wing; part 1 ' about clipping, happy reading.:2thumb:


----------



## lil05 (Jul 22, 2008)

im not fussed either way 
i personally have my birds done by the vets as if i didnt he would never be out the cage
when i 1st had him he wasnt clipped and for the 1st year he wasnt until he had a bad landing and hurt himself which stopped me from getting him out anymore 

he can still "fly" so if he did startle its enough to get him somewhere safe and to land properly


----------



## marie_k (Apr 21, 2006)

I have never been a fan of wing clipping and regularly annoy people by refusing to do it in order to make their bird more convenient for them. Psychologically and physically it is can be very detrimental, even more so in young birds.
It is debatable whether it is actually now illegal to do - the Animal Welfare Act clearly states animals must be able to show normal behaviour for their species. So how can deflighting a bird still be acceptable?
On the flip side, there was a (heated) discussion at a conference last year where vets from countries where wing clipping is considered normal put across the argument that clipped birds were actually better socialised as people integrated them into their lives more, took them out (cue photos of birds in bike baskets, out on picnics, parrot group meetings etc etc!) and didn't confine them to a cage or a single room leading to better mental stimulation. Didn't win me over but I can see some benefit in an adult bird if the owner is actually going to make such an effort and devote their time to the bird as a result. Still feel though that owners should change their lives to fit the bird, not the other way round.
Marie


----------



## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

What has always worried me is when parrots in shops are on stands and anyone can touch them including children,that there are not more injuries from bites.When parrots are in zoos you often see signs saying "beware these animals may bite". I do not keep parrots, so maybe they are reliable enough to do this,but many animals are unpredictable.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

animalsbeebee said:


> What has always worried me is when parrots in shops are on stands and anyone can touch them including children,that there are not more injuries from bites.When parrots are in zoos you often see signs saying "beware these animals may bite". I do not keep parrots, so maybe they are reliable enough to do this,but many animals are unpredictable.


I would also worry about the public being able to get so close to the parrots. Parrots can be funny in who they take to, but babies are mostly happy to be handled by anyone. Its when they become adults that their attitudes can become problematic. Oh well, if it draws in the crowds...... :whistling2:


----------



## duffey (Mar 1, 2012)

*Wing Clipping Parrots poll*

Wing Clipping

As a temporary measure - there is nothing wrong in wing clipping. It is done, as a matter of course, to 'hinder' birds which are aggressive to their partners!
Please remember that all it involves is the clipping of the flight feathers on one wing - these will regrow at the next moult. 
Wing clipping is practiced with certain large 'waders' such as Flamingo and Cranes.

It is NOT A SURGICAL PROCEDURE!

Pinioning i.e. the surgical removal of a part of the wing is acceptable in certain species such as waterfowl - but on no account should any Psittacine be pinioned!

many people will disagree with the above comments - but they are from practical avicultural experience


----------



## Sarah-Jayne (Jul 4, 2007)

Might be a little off topic but a couple of years ago when I was in Florida I went in a pet shop that sold parrots, they had the adults in good sized cages and the baby conures were out on a stand, they could fly, because they kept flying and landing on me. The pet shop had the bird part at the back of the shop, with a separate door, and a beaded curtain type thing over the door too. The birds that were loose were quite some distance from said door and I don't think they would have escaped. 

I know it isn't 100% the same thing, but people wouldn't buy a dog and break its legs so it couldn't run off would they!? I really don't understand wing clipping one little bit, its very simple to keep windows and doors closed when a bird is out of the cage.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

duffey said:


> Wing Clipping
> 
> As a temporary measure - there is nothing wrong in wing clipping. It is done, as a matter of course, to 'hinder' birds which are aggressive to their partners!
> Please remember that all it involves is the clipping of the flight feathers on one wing - these will regrow at the next moult.
> ...


It certainly isn't done as a matter of course! Im sure we are all intelligent enough to know that wing-clipping is the cutting of flight feathers, not the actual wing. Flamingo, Storks, Pelicans, etc are generally pinioned when on display at zoos, etc, not wing-clipped. Imagine catching every single Flamingo at Chester Zoo every time they had their moult. I am also speaking from practical avicultural experience.


----------



## Antw23uk (Jan 12, 2009)

My Senegal parrot was clipped on and off over the years. The plus for him being fully able to fly was the beauty of him following you around and flying to your hand when called and to get the full exercise these animals should have but he and I really missed the summers when he would wander round the garden, sitting in the small willow bush chatting away to any bird or insect flying in the garden that would care to listen (he loved a good chat) 
We would put him in his cage outside when he could fly properly but it wasnt the same, he would sit sulking or trying to get out but whilst he was fully flighted there was no way i would have taken the chance with him loose in the garden and that was very sad for us both (but safety first)

So im for and against it. Done correctly its just a temporary thing and they grow back.


----------



## AraCyanea (May 30, 2011)

100% Disagree, they need to be able to fly. It's there exercise and in their nature.


----------

