# The future of UK reptile shows



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Its pretty screwed isnt it really? The only people with the knowlege and experience to organise one are likely to be shop owners so its going to be hard to prove they wont have an invested interest in the show so its unlikely to get the go ahead.

Big shame really as the local clubs are all dying off too.

Can you see a future for uk shows?


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## jav07 (Apr 20, 2006)

local clubs are dying off because of the lack of support


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## jamie_coxon (Jul 18, 2007)

just heard about exeter show well gutted stupid councils grrr make me angry


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

jav07 said:


> local clubs are dying off because of the lack of support


Yeah you can get instand help, advice and herp chat online though. Its not just our hobby its all hobbies suffering that fate


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## jav07 (Apr 20, 2006)

same old rubbish thou.....it wont happen to us...just one person cant make a difference


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

are they going to ban things like Crufts and dog shows? Its a bloody Pee Take seriously


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## jav07 (Apr 20, 2006)

Snake_charmer said:


> are they going to ban things like Crufts and dog shows? Its a bloody Pee Take seriously


no because it is popular and televised and worth alot of money


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Snake_charmer said:


> are they going to ban things like Crufts and dog shows? Its a bloody Pee Take seriously


Not with the BBC handing over lots of wonga :no1:


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## tokay (Mar 13, 2007)

thats what it all comes down to in the end - the £££££££££££££££££££££££££'s


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## stan (Sep 18, 2006)

Snake_charmer said:


> are they going to ban things like Crufts and dog shows? Its a bloody Pee Take seriously


Crufts is a series of competitions, there aren't animals with price tags on them, its hardly comparable.


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

stan said:


> Crufts is a series of competitions, there aren't animals with price tags on them, its hardly comparable.


Ever been too crufts? Its like a canine whore house when it comes to the doggy black market, they all show the parents and hand out business cards for offspring.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> Ever been too crufts? Its like a canine whore house when it comes to the doggy black market, they all show the parents and hand out business cards for offspring.


But the sales are still done in the private properties of the people selling the animals..

I'm sure the council would have no problem with us all bringing our snakes to a location, saying "no sales here" and letting people look, choose.. then driving all the way back to the property of the people who own the snake and handing the money over there :lol2:


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## stan (Sep 18, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> Ever been too crufts? Its like a canine whore house when it comes to the doggy black market, they all show the parents and hand out business cards for offspring.


I have, yes, I go annually. Business cards, so not handing over cash then? It's not a trade show for buying and selling animals, its a fundamentally different type of event.


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## CBR1100XX (Feb 19, 2006)

stan said:


> I have, yes, I go annually. Business cards, so not handing over cash then? It's not a trade show for buying and selling animals, its a fundamentally different type of event.


whatever the thread isn't about crufts or dogs for that matter.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*sad facts are...*

That this type of legislation has been on the books for a very long time.

Reptile shows, will there be a future - who knows?

Crufts - will there be a future ? - Who knows

If things go the way those that oppose wish them to do, there is very little future anyway, hence why the long running adage of 'stand up and be counted' has tried to rather unsuccessfully pull together the different fraternities.

Sad facts are that this has 'beena comin' guys.

Rory TSKA


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

The thing is, most small animal shows do allow sales with no issues. The difference is that shows in most fancies are where animals that have been bred to a particular standard are judged as to their quality by your peers. The sales are a small section, with the animals sold being surplus stock from the main event ... shows aren't normally based around simply sales.

To the outsider (for example, a council employee), a show where animals are being judged against a standard with a few excess being sold among fanciers is quite obviously a "hobby" event. A show with no show element, simply buying and selling does look like a commercial venture.


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Lets face it the show's where sales happen are not a show as such they're a sale day. I've spent many a weekend/sunday afternoon at Parrot club table top 'show's which in reality had no show eliment to them just plain old selling of surplus stock, occassionally there would be the best docorated cage/table comp which had nothing to do with the serious business of selling birds.

Crufts is a show a competition where breeders and traders are allowed to pass out business cards or in the traders case sell good - breeders are not however allowed to sell puppies or dogs at ANY KC licensed event, nor are matings allowed within the grounds of any show.


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

I thought it was cancelled cos of foot an mouth outbreak as the matford centre it would have been in was a cattle market centre. Seems pretty silly as reps cant get foot and mouth and cant pass it on. Sucks really. Why was it cancelled? Im just guessing


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

Forget about the last post id just read why it was cancelled. So close to the event.


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

To be honest, the days of open 'pet' selling are numbered.

In some ways, rightly so. 

However, I belive that societies and organisations will be able to continue to put on these type of events , only in a much more restricted manner.

For example, the whole aim of the laws is to protect the animals, to end the wholesale deaths that occur with many of the imports, to ensure new owners are given the help and advice they need.

We have all hear of the horror stories in the news, the 'croc in the bath' and the 'child bitten by snake' stories, but never the nice stories. 

As many others have suggested, its time to stand up and be counted. If everyone wrote to mps' regarding the wording and interpritation of the 1951 act, and the more recent AWB, the impact would be large. If only having many MPs talking about how many people are asking.

I mean, theres 2500 active members on this site alone ! 

I urge everyone to join a club, form a society, take an active interest and lets all push in the same direction.

I dont know about any FBH or IHS involvment in the exeter show, or even if there is any, but it sure will be interesting to hear thier take on this turn of events.


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

we had this argument a while back when the AWB was being introduced,a time when myself and others who gave you all some idea of what was going to happen were poo pooed all day long,well now we're getting there and the people who said we were doomsayers no doubt still are'nt members of any clubs,the PRAS show was very poorly supported by the herp community in spite of us breeders being there after long drives and days of preparation,if the ordinary hobbiest cant be arsed to get off their arses what chance has the hobby got??
the screws will only ever be tightened further and yet as usual very few have their eyes open,its the business as normal,heads down arses up attitude all over again.
regards gaz


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## babyburm (Apr 19, 2007)

Snake_charmer said:


> are they going to ban things like Crufts and dog shows? Its a bloody Pee Take seriously


i know, i can think of lots or reasons why dog show should be cancelled when dogs bite/attack there usualy worse than a snakes bites+ you can get rabies ect, peeps are even elergic to fur, all these dog wondering around, in town ect peeps are elergic,also snakes leave two tiny punchure holes which they bite with the ecwivilent (cant spell) of hyperdoringent needles!! with no deases, unless venomus


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

babyburm said:


> i know, i can think of lots or reasons why dog show should be cancelled when dogs bite/attack there usualy worse than a snakes bites+ you can get rabies ect, peeps are even elergic to fur, all these dog wondering around, in town ect peeps are elergic,also snakes leave two tiny punchure holes which they bite with the ecwivilent (cant spell) of hyperdoringent needles!! with no deases, unless venomus


Baby burm - what the hell does things like crufts have to do with rabies, dog attacks and allergies?

FFS, can everyone get over dog shows/crufts etc.

This reptile shows sole/main purpose was to sell things, animals and dry goods.

sales of livestock are NOT PERMITTED at dog shows, esp crufts.

If people want UK reptile shows to work the same as crufts then they could still go ahead.

But what that would basically mean is going at LOOKING at breeders/traders herps and then arranging a sale elsewhere....aka pretty much what you can do via breeders/traders websites/phone/premises anyway if you actually get off your bum to do it.

can people please 'get' that dog shows and reptile shows are completely different both in terms of what happens there, what is allowed to happen there and from a legal standpoint.

Stop harping on about "well they should ban this and ban that" and take stock of what this ACTUALLY means instead of pointless ranting about bird shows, dog shows or anything else.

Mason


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## jav07 (Apr 20, 2006)

gaz said:


> we had this argument a while back when the AWB was being introduced,a time when myself and others who gave you all some idea of what was going to happen were poo pooed all day long,well now we're getting there and the people who said we were doomsayers no doubt still are'nt members of any clubs,the PRAS show was very poorly supported by the herp community in spite of us breeders being there after long drives and days of preparation,if the ordinary hobbiest cant be arsed to get off their arses what chance has the hobby got??
> the screws will only ever be tightened further and yet as usual very few have their eyes open,its the business as normal,heads down arses up attitude all over again.
> regards gaz


it was the same as the ware show the breeders were there shame everyone else wasn't..its simple more members=more shows:bash:


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*pointless goings on..*

New legislation, the awa, etc. 

This does not mean that the future of reptile shows is dead, it just means that they must adhere to the protocol...simple. There is a route to success to ensuring that shows continue in the United Kingdom.

It is in some respects pointless about harping on about if 'more people had listened', that is always going to be the case, people never listen until something 'dreadful' happens.

Politics and the keeper are not something that wished to be seen as going hand in hand, sadly this is now the case, and if people do want to see shows happening for both mammals and reptiles etc in the UK then perhaps the way forwards is to join a society, recognised, or club etc. This line of talk is most assuredly not new.

But demotivations runs deep, from the 'recognised organizations' to the actual individual keeper. So there is never going to be an easy way forwards politically speaking.

So okay, the Expo did not go ahead, and yes that is bad, but we must use this as an example of how to ensure that future shows are worked on in full and take into account everything that is required in order for them to be successful, surely?

Political pressures are on us all, not just in legislation, protocol and procedure but they surround us now, and if we want to see our and your hobbies continue then we learn to work within their structures - show that we are able to handle all responsibly and go from that point forwards.

Rory Matier
TSKA


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

WeThePeople said:


> Its pretty screwed The only people with the knowlege and experience to organise one are likely to be shop owners so its going to be hard to prove they wont have an invested interest in the show so its unlikely to get the go ahead.


Not at all... currently, the most successful UK shows are organised by hobbiest clubs.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

It is funny but when someone asked a few weeks ago, how do I start a show? There were answers that made it seem like having a pet shop license was an advantage/bonus when organising a show... yesterday and today, all I have heard is that having a pet shop license is detrimental to the whole thing (even if you are not selling at the show).

Recently someone has been telling me that it is illegal for people with pet shop licenses to attend shows even if the livestock they sell is nothing to do with the shop (ie. I breed corns with CWCorns that are sold to the business Reptile Cymru.. of which I am a key partner, however, the corns I breed are classed as my hobby. I don't pay taxes on those sales, I DO fill in a tax return and am exempted again and again) but now I am told, because I am affiliated with a business and known as one of the owners, I may never be able to attend a trade show..

Well, that's fine, if that is indeed the case. My issue is that no councils seem to agree on it. The AWB certainly doesn't go into specifics. The 1951 act seems to be contradictory to the AWB and councils seem to be picking and choosing.

Furthermore, I know of at least 3 people personally who attended the last show I was at with tables, who have a pet shop license - not because they have a retail outlet, but because they were either home based dealers, or in the case of 2 of them, because it was easier to have a pet shop license than a DWA! Yet one source told me even these people would be held exempt from trading.

It is just very frustating at the moment that there is so much confusion and misinterpretation, I am hearing different things all over the place - from people in positions such as organisers of the other shows, who should really know one way or the other how it stands.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*confusion*

Hi Athravan, 

You are right there is indeed much confusion 'out there' at present, primarily due to the fact that there is primary legislation, and some secondary legislation, but no real guidelines to anyone.

Councils are still learning how to walk the rope, and so not wishing to be seen to 'doing it wrong' they go for a very staunch approach to it. Be tough can not be wrong sort of thing. 

Is this correct or not? Well who knows?

However l think in all honesty that it will come down to the tried and tested formula of time and settling time.

Time will tell and display to us, how the legislation is appraised or neglected, and how the future of council decisions etc will reflect upon the various communities.

"Rome was not built in a day", and neither will the legislational future of Britain be established until all the legislation, procedure and codes are fully released and out there for all to view properly.

Some slack must be given to those who must work by the new rulings, for they too are coming to grips with the policies now that are to be set in stone for the next 100 years! 

We have come to accept that procedures and politics are slow to emerge and present themselves to the hobbyist or keeper in the UK, hopefully now, we will be a little more speedier in making sure that our legislation is available for all to view in a layman version and is not just available to those who are qualified in nucleur chemistry and science.

I think by this time next year, [perhaps l am being too naive] then we will all be in a much better position to know where we stand legislationally speaking. But l do hope that by this time next year then more of us will be 'clued in' to what is and what is not.

Rory


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