# Sticky  Known and potential genetic defects in morphs!



## StuG

After alot of recent discussion in the snake section i have decided to start a thread where people can list any known or possible genetic defects caused or associated with certain genes or potential pairings.
This is not a thread for debate over the rights and wrongs of such breedings but as information to help people with potential breeding pairings and/or purchasing a new snake.
If or when a solution to a problematic pairing occurs (i.e a super jungle produces a viable litter) feel free to add a link with supporting evidence and any additional information.
Cheers Stu


----------



## StuG

Ill go first with the ones i am aware of

Boa Constrictor Imperator;

Super Motley. 
The Super motley is produced from a motley to motley pairing. Super motleys can be either Colombian or C.A. 
So far there is no confirmed evidence either have survived long enough to produce a viable litter.The C.A Super Motleys seem to be stronger than the Colombian versions which to my knowledge have all either died before sexual maturity or are in the process of health deterioration to the point death seems likely.
The cause is thought to be underdeveloped muscles leading to a weak snake. At the moment it doesnt look as if any amount of outcrossing will help resolve the issues.


Super Jungle.
Super Jungles appear to be unable to reproduce,although more are now survivng into adulthood i have seen no reliable evidence of viable litters being produced.

Breeding Albino to Albino.

As far as im aware this is relevant to both Kahl and Sharp strains of Albino.
Not always but pairings of visual to visual albino has lead to litters of boas with deformities, particularly around the eyes.
The overiding consensus among boa breeders would be to breed none related visual to a het to increase the chances of producing healthy offspring.


Royal Pythons.

Spider Royal.

The spider gene is a co dominant mutation. It has been said that all royals carrying the spider gene will suffer from neurological issues described as "head wobble". This can very from being hardly noticeable to servere corkscrewing and starglazing. How much this effects the snakes quality of life is open to dispute, spiders are also said to be strong feeders and breeders.
I believe the super form of the spider gene to be lethal,no living Superspider has been produced.


----------



## bothrops

Great Idea, Stu.

I'm gonna sticky this and keep an eye on it, I'll remove any arguementative or disruptive posts. Info and evidence only please!


----------



## alan1

*royals*

*pearl* - AKA super woma = fatal 
add another gene to the mix, ie: lesser - and everything appears to be ok

*caramel albino* - certain lines carry a much higher percentage of kinked individuals than other lines


----------



## Molly75

*Extreme hypo honduran milk snakes*
This morph seems to carry a leathal gene and enlarged heart issues.
I've actually tried to grow on 3 of these and all 3 passed around 6 months, and carried the same defect.
All were unrealted and UK, US And European lines.
*
Caramel corns and striped corns*
Enlarged heart and sudden death,wittnessed in both morphs, weakness and prone to sudden weight loss.


----------



## nuttybabez

ooh I didn't know that about caramel and striped corns!

One to add for leos, I assume this sticky relates to both snakes and lizards?

Enigmas -
Enigma syndrome is only found in enigma leopard geckos. Symptoms range from star gazing, circling, head shaking, head tilt, difficulty with co-ordination including hunting for food and at its most severe, death rolling. Most leos with enigma syndrome can be managed with a little extra TLC, however if a leo is death rolling the kindest thing is to euthanise. Enigma syndrome can be present from birth or develop at a later date. Enigmas showing this syndrome should NOT be bred from. It is also advised not to pair 2 enigmas when breeding even if the parents do not display enigma syndrome.


----------



## Robb75

Good thread mate. I'll do more posts in here in time. For now...

Albino boas. The albino is a weak gene in that one eyed albinos can result from unrelated het x het breeding, albino x het breeding and worst of all albino x albino. No matter how much outcrossing has been done it doesn't have seemed to fix the problem. One eyed albinos can come from any pairing.

Super Aztec Boas: both Patternless *Super* Aztecs born in 2008(one died within a few month's from improper force feeding) from two different female Aztecs had or have the same problem as the *Super* Aztecs which can best be described as a lack of coordination. Several *Super* Aztecs including the remaining Patternless *Super* *Aztec* have seen improved coordination with age and a 2007 male *Super* *Aztec* produced a viable litter this year. Andrew Potts.


----------



## paulh

Leucistic Texas rat snake. Some lines have enlarged, protruding eyes (bugeyes). As some lines have normal eyes, the problem may be environmental. Pigs have congenital eye problems if the mother is somewhat deficient in vitamin A. Could this be the problem in LTRS too???


----------



## Ssthisto

alan1 said:


> *pearl* - AKA super woma = fatal
> add another gene to the mix, ie: lesser - and everything appears to be ok


Keep in mind that Pearl is homozygous HGWoma, not homozygous Woma - the homozygous form of the Woma gene (which is not the same as HGWoma) does not look visually distinctive from a Woma and is not lethal, as per BHB.


----------



## Robb75

There is an informative read regarding Super Jungle Boas/Arabesque boas and motleys problems and potential problems here:-

Supers - RedTailBoas Ultimate Reptile Community


----------



## vetdebbie

Not heard about the caramel/stripe corn thing. However :

Stargazing in corns - recessive genetic neurological condition, principly associated with the Sunkissed morph or Okeetee lines. However due to outcrossing before the inheritance was proved, it COULD occur in any morph.


----------



## StuG

I have heard about neuro issues in certain carpet pythons. Any one care to explain them?


----------



## bothrops

Stu.G said:


> I have heard about neuro issues in certain carpet pythons. Any one care to explain them?


 
Carpets that contain the co-dom 'jaguar' mutation have been cropping up with neuro issues similar to spider royals (though by all accounts not as severe in most cases and some report no such issues in their snakes). Again, like the spiders, it appears more pronouced at feeding time.


The super form of the jag is known as an ivory, but so far none have survived out of the egg more than a few days.


----------



## leopardgeckomad

why is is that if you have an enigma leopard gecko with some mild issues, ie, only circles when stressed/disturbed that you cant breed it when its older, and if the Spider royal python has some problems you can, i think its stupid how people judge enigmas,

with enigmas they either show issues or dont, the underlying issues will always be there.

bradd


----------



## bothrops

leopardgeckomad said:


> why is is that if you have an enigma leopard gecko with some mild issues, ie, only circles when stressed/disturbed that you cant breed it when its older, and if the Spider royal python has some problems you can, i think its stupid how people judge enigmas,
> 
> with enigmas they either show issues or dont, the underlying issues will always be there.
> 
> bradd


It's not that you 'can' or 'can't'....it's that some people do and some people don't. It all depends on your moral and ethical 'lines-in-the-sand'.

I'm guessing that the enigma leo breeders lines tend to be slightly different to the spider royal breeders lines? - Still, a discussion for another thread so I don't get shouted at for taking the thread off-topic or turning it into a debate!:Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Robb75

Hold on, hold on! The genetic defects in Super Motleys will be 'just fine' in 'time' according to BoaRepulic. Phew, glad that ones sorted out then! Fingers crossed for the Super Jungle boa.


----------



## eeji

vetdebbie said:


> Not heard about the caramel/stripe corn thing. However :
> 
> Stargazing in corns - recessive genetic neurological condition, principly associated with the Sunkissed morph or Okeetee lines. However due to outcrossing before the inheritance was proved, it COULD occur in any morph.


a little more info and a few videos of stargazing occuring in morphs other than sunkissed and okeetee is here: Stargazer Cornsnake - Ians Vivarium Cornsnakes


----------



## Strictlymorphsuk

its is thought that breeding a spider to spider (ball python) can also be a lethal combination


----------



## hogboy

Strictlymorphsuk said:


> its is thought that breeding a spider to spider (ball python) can also be a lethal combination


Don't think it's a lethal combo, just a bit pointless as there is no proven Super, not sure where the lethal gene thing came from ?


----------



## Caz

Because this is a sticky are we assuming everything on it is fact..?:whistling2:


----------



## bothrops

hogboy said:


> Don't think it's a lethal combo, just a bit pointless as *there is no proven Super*, not sure where the lethal gene thing came from ?


Exactly that reason.

Due to the hundreds of thousands of spider breedings it is statisically near impossible that IF the homozygous spider *could* exist then it *wouldn't yet actually *exist.

By now we would have seen either a phenotypically different 'super spider' or proven a homozygote animal out (confirming its status as a dominant mutation).

The fact that this has not happened means that _either_ we just haven't 'hit the odds yet' despite it being the most commonly bred morph next to pastel (and the super pastel has been around about three/four years less than the pastel!), 

or (and this is by far the most likely option) the homozygote animal is a lethal combination and never develops.

An hypothesis could be that the neuro issue in the heterozygote reaches lethal levels in the homozygote that stops development of the zygote.

Circumstantial support of this theory is the ivory carpet ('super' version of the jaguar carpet). The jags have a more subtle version of the spider wobble and the super form can make it as far as the hatchling stage. The super ivory however dies straight out of the egg. The summise being that a more subtle neuro leads to a 'less lethal' homozygote, but lethal none-the-less.


----------



## Browny92

*spider gene*

spider gene is a dominant gene so cant have a super form and like someone said previouly would be a waste of a breeding as you would only come out with spiders.


----------



## Ssthisto

Browny92 said:


> spider gene is a dominant gene so cant have a super form and like someone said previouly would be a waste of a breeding as you would only come out with spiders.


You do know that a dominant trait can still be homozygous OR heterozygous, right?

NERD will undoubtedly have done a lot of testing with their first male when they got him up to breeding size to find out if there was a visually distinctive homozygous form of the gene... so why hasn't one been proven homozygous yet?


----------



## bothrops

Browny92 said:


> spider gene is a dominant gene so cant have a super form and like someone said previouly would be a waste of a breeding as you would only come out with spiders.


Have you read the rest of the thread at all?


----------



## toolrthebest

*hey !*



Stu.G said:


> Spider Royal.
> 
> The spider gene is a co dominant mutation. It has been said that all royals carrying the spider gene will suffer from neurological issues described as "head wobble". This can very from being hardly noticeable to servere corkscrewing and starglazing. How much this effects the snakes quality of life is open to dispute, spiders are also said to be strong feeders and breeders.
> I believe the super form of the spider gene to be lethal,no living Superspider has been produced.


hey sorry just to fix it the spider is a dominant gene and no superform exists hence i is a dominant.

Just to let you guys know


----------



## Ssthisto

toolrthebest said:


> hey sorry just to fix it the spider is a dominant gene and no superform exists hence i is a dominant.
> 
> Just to let you guys know


If there's no proven live homozygous animals, it definitely isn't _confirmed _as a true dominant (since the definition of that is that a heterozygous animal looks like a homozygous one). Unless someone steps up and says "yes, I have a confirmed homozygous animal, proven through breeding trials" ... it's still looking like a codominant where the homozygous form is "didn't make it to hatching."


----------



## eeji

I know its already been said, but heres my 'simplified' take on spider...

codominant:

het = wobbly alive snake
**** = dead snake


----------



## bothrops

toolrthebest said:


> hey sorry just to fix it the spider is a dominant gene and no superform exists hence i is a dominant.
> 
> Just to let you guys know


Hey, that's ok. Only, when 'fixing' something, it is usually sensible to read all of the previous posts.....: victory:



bothrops said:


> Due to the hundreds of thousands of spider breedings it is statisically near impossible that IF the homozygous spider *could* exist then it *wouldn't yet actually *exist.
> 
> By now we would have seen either a phenotypically different 'super spider' or proven a homozygote animal out (confirming its status as a dominant mutation).
> 
> The fact that this has not happened means that _either_ we just haven't 'hit the odds yet' despite it being the most commonly bred morph next to pastel (and the super pastel has been around about three/four years less than the pastel!),
> 
> or (and this is by far the most likely option) the homozygote animal is a lethal combination and never develops. *[making the mutation codominant]*
> 
> An hypothesis could be that the neuro issue in the heterozygote reaches lethal levels in the homozygote that stops development of the zygote.
> 
> Circumstantial support of this theory is the ivory carpet ('super' version of the jaguar carpet). The jags have a more subtle version of the spider wobble and the super form can make it as far as the hatchling stage. The super ivory however dies straight out of the egg. The summise being that a more subtle neuro leads to a 'less lethal' homozygote, but lethal none-the-less.


----------



## ba1l3y76

You will probably tell from my next question that i am new to this!! 
But am i right in saying that if you breed Bumble Bee x Bumble Bee, the 'Super Spider' will die in the egg? Or will it just not be produced as there is no such thing proven? 
I am just trying to understand the genetics thing so please be gentle!!:blush:


----------



## paulh

ba1l3y76 said:


> You will probably tell from my next question that i am new to this!!
> But am i right in saying that if you breed Bumble Bee x Bumble Bee, the 'Super Spider' will die in the egg? Or will it just not be produced as there is no such thing proven?
> I am just trying to understand the genetics thing so please be gentle!!:blush:


The problem here is that nobody fully understands the genetics. I certainly do not, and from the posts in this thread, the previous posters do not understand it better than I do. And as far as I know, nobody has tried to work out the answer.

Breeding a spider (or spider combination) to another spider (or spider combination) should produce a snake with a pair of spider mutant genes (AKA super spider) sooner or later. But nobody has reported such a snake. So why has a super spider not been reported?

The two most likely reasons are
1. The super spider dies in the egg.
2. The super spider looks like a spider but has not been reported for various reasons like no interest, no internet access, the snake was never bred, etc. 

Solving the problem would require mating two spiders to make possible super spiders and then mating at least 20 of them to normals. If all of the possible super spiders prove to be spiders, then most likely the super spiders die in the egg. But this would require a lot of time and effort.


----------



## ba1l3y76

Thank you for your reply and thank you for not ripping into me:2thumb:!!


----------



## SakuraPastel

Well isnt Pastel het for super pastel?


----------



## bothrops

SakuraPastel said:


> Well isnt Pastel het for super pastel?


Yes it is.

Not quite sure of the link to the spider gene though?


----------



## paulh

SakuraPastel said:


> Well isnt Pastel het for super pastel?


Technically, no. I see that useage every so often, but it is bad terminology.

Heterozygous and homozygous describe the make up of a pair of genes. 
Homozygous = the two genes in a gene pair are the same.
Heterozygous = the two genes in a gene pair are NOT the same.

A super pastel royal has two pastel genes so is homozygous pastel.
A pastel royal has a pastel gene and a normal gene so is heterozygous pastel.

Het for super pastel translates to heterozygous homozygous pastel. A gene pair cannot be heterozygous and homozygous at the same time. It's a contradiction in terms.

Calling a pastel royal a one copy pastel and a super pastel royal a two copy pastel is acceptable.


----------



## s3xy_sheep

I'm aware of certain "problems/diferences" in certain royals 
Such as :

Albino - eye probs
Spider - neuro issues
cinny - smaller heads (apparrently)
Caramels - kink


any more ??????


----------



## bothrops

s3xy_sheep said:


> I'm aware of certain "problems/diferences" in certain royals
> Such as :
> 
> Albino - eye probs
> Spider - neuro issues
> cinny - smaller heads (apparrently)
> Caramels - kink
> 
> 
> any more ??????


When you were linked to this thread from the one you posted below, the idea was that you read this thread as it has all the answers on it, rather than posting the question again at the end of it.

Have a read through all four pages and then ask any specific questions or concerns you have:2thumb:


----------



## s3xy_sheep

bothrops said:


> When you were linked to this thread from the one you posted below, the idea was that you read this thread as it has all the answers on it, rather than posting the question again at the end of it.
> 
> Have a read through all four pages and then ask any specific questions or concerns you have:2thumb:


thats exactly what i did but couldnt be :censor: retyping it again the ones i already know also in doing that i mentioned the cinny which no one has yet would love to know how true that one is an what difference it makes


----------



## toolrthebest

*hey*



hogboy said:


> Don't think it's a lethal combo, just a bit pointless as there is no proven Super, not sure where the lethal gene thing came from ?


this comes in as the spider to spider gene does not seem to develop in the egg so 25% of the clutch in theory should not hatch out as the egg has not developed properly the two genes jus dont mix together


----------



## nick1983

Does anyone have any info on the super black pastels and the duck bill defect? I would love to produce these in the future but heard they suffer with this defect,i think supercinnys can suffer with something similar has anyone encountered or heard of this?


----------



## s3xy_sheep

nick1983 said:


> Does anyone have any info on the super black pastels and the duck bill defect? I would love to produce these in the future but heard they suffer with this defect,i think supercinnys can suffer with something similar has anyone encountered or heard of this?



duck bill effect ???? is this summit to do with the smaller heads thats some cinnys apparrently have


----------



## nick1983

it's mentioned more in america than the uk from what i've seen on the net,from what i've seen in pics certain lines of super blacks have short head's with a really wide snout which is where the name comes from,i just wondered if it occurs in blacks much in the uk? google it and ul c wot i mean


----------



## gingerpony

is there any documented evidence regarding lavender corns being prone to kinks?
i have a kinked lavender and when trying to research it i've not found anything suggesting that that particular morph is more likely to be kinky than any other morph


----------



## Ssthisto

gingerpony said:


> is there any documented evidence regarding lavender corns being prone to kinks?
> i have a kinked lavender and when trying to research it i've not found anything suggesting that that particular morph is more likely to be kinky than any other morph


Rich Zuchowski (the founder of Serpenco, and the originator of the Lavender morph) mentioned on his forum that he found this to be the case.


----------



## gingerpony

Ssthisto said:


> Rich Zuchowski (the founder of Serpenco, and the originator of the Lavender morph) mentioned on his forum that he found this to be the case.


thanks for that, i'd tried researching on here and on google but people posting about kinked lavs seem about as common as others posting about kinked anything else, and only circumstantial too. 
and google, well that's a whole load of :censor: to wade through but i really did try :lol2:


----------



## KMReptiles

Brill thread and love the way things like this always turn into a debate lol but anyway thought I would throw out a few youtube links for some so called 'lethal ball python combos' as I found it really interesting and on the spider 'super' arguement another way which I was told about was the spider was a co.dominant morph and its 'super' turned out to be just simply dominant and now the co.dominant form is nearly bred out. Not saying this is fact or anything just something I was told and thought I would see peoples opinion also


----------



## KMReptiles

Here's the links I was on about earlier lol forgot to post them Lethal Ball Python Combos Part 1 - Videos - World of Ball Pythons

Lethal Ball Python combos Part 2 - Videos - World of Ball Pythons


----------



## bothrops

KMReptiles said:


> Brill thread and love the way things like this always turn into a debate lol but anyway thought I would throw out a few youtube links for some so called 'lethal ball python combos' as I found it really interesting and on the spider 'super' arguement another way which I was told about was the spider was a co.dominant morph and its 'super' turned out to be just simply dominant and now the co.dominant form is nearly bred out. Not saying this is fact or anything just something I was told and thought I would see peoples opinion also


This makes zero sense genetically. The sentence 'the spider was a co.dominant morph and its 'super' turned out to be just simply dominant and now the co.dominant form is nearly bred out' is complete and utter nonsense from a genetics point of view.

Either you haven't quite understood the terms codominant and dominant, or the guy that provided you with this argument has no idea what they are talking about.

Could you explain further what you mean?


----------



## KMReptiles

I don't completely agree with this btw just wanted to see what ppl thought. According to the guy that said this the spider was a co dominant mutation but with people wanting to see if there was a super it turned out the genetics changed to dominant and some ppl put this down as the super. Like I said just wanted to throw it out there and I don't think there's any evidence to support this either which is why I don't agree fully with it


----------



## bothrops

KMReptiles said:


> I don't completely agree with this btw just wanted to see what ppl thought. According to the guy that said this the spider was a co dominant mutation but with people wanting to see if there was a super it turned out the genetics changed to dominant and some ppl put this down as the super. Like I said just wanted to throw it out there and I don't think there's any evidence to support this either which is why I don't agree fully with it


Well, I reckon you can change your thought from 'don't fully agree' to 'the guy is talking rubbish'.

Mutations do not change from codominant to dominant. It is fixed and constant and the spider mutation is either one or the other. No amount of breeding will change this.



Now, what HAS happened, is that breeding trials have led to us having to decide whether the spider mutation is dominant or codominant and it still isn't universally agreed as to which it is. To be clear, whether the mutation is dominant or codominant or not hasn't changed, but our understanding of how it works might and so we'll change what we call it.



Either spider is a dominant mutation and homozygous spiders exist (looking like normal heterozygous spiders do). This would be shown if people own animals that only ever produce spiders in their litters for many generations.


OR

Spider is codominant, normal looking spiders are heterozygous animals and the homozygous form 'AKA - super spider' is phenotypically 'non-viable' meaning that is a sperm carrying the spider gene fertilises a egg carrying the spider gene, something goes wrong and the animal never develops.




As it stands, no one as far as I know has a 'proven' homozygous spider. However, when spider to spider matings are done, I do not know of the ratios of slugs produced (if homozygous spider is a lethal combo, then these matings should produce a few infertile eggs).

The data isn't clear, so it is as yet unclear whether the spider is codominant or dominant, but the thing that is absolutely certain is that is will not and never has changed from one to the other!


----------



## corns are cool

this is what happens when people try to become rich and mess with animals and nature you get diseased riddled pets


----------



## eeji

corns are cool said:


> this is what happens when people try to become rich and mess with animals and nature you get diseased riddled pets


nobody is messing with nature though, this IS nature. Unfortunately natural occurrences are not always for the best and things do go wrong


----------



## bothrops

corns are cool said:


> this is what happens when people try to become rich and mess with animals and nature you get diseased riddled pets


 
You'd have thought that someone with an opinion as strong as yours would have at least researched the actual subject that they feel so strongly about.

Surely?


----------



## Molly75

gingerpony said:


> is there any documented evidence regarding lavender corns being prone to kinks?
> i have a kinked lavender and when trying to research it i've not found anything suggesting that that particular morph is more likely to be kinky than any other morph


Opps did you mean royals? as this is corns opps LOL 

I have more lavs with kinks than any other snakes I knew of a whole litter with kinking off an imported male and female those being some of the first UK lavs.

The non kinked snakes were bred and also produced kinks so were retired from breeding.

I've also had hets throw kinked babies too  and had 3 babies in one het clutch and 2 were kinked  the others were fine.

I've also got another couple which came into the sanctuary when I ran it which are also kinked and stay as pets as I've not got the heart to rehome those as they are such sweet lil snakes and the kink does not seem to affect them and I've had them years now, I've also found my own lavs and theres a fair few, all stress really easy and are prone to regurge  mome of my pure lavs are now used in breeding.


----------



## corns are cool

eeji said:


> nobody is messing with nature though, this IS nature. Unfortunately natural occurrences are not always for the best and things do go wrong


this i agree with


----------



## corns are cool

bothrops said:


> You'd have thought that someone with an opinion as strong as yours would have at least researched the actual subject that they feel so strongly about.
> 
> Surely?


i have researched the subject and i acually agree with createing new morphs and strains for people to enjoy are hobby with a more variaty of coulors but sometimes just a question pops up now and again like " how far can we acually go when breeding animals before disease and defects take over" things like enigma syndrome in leopard geckos and star gazing in sunkissed corn snakes and the albino carpet python death gene are we trying to reduce the numbers who are affected with this or just keep breeding them to pass on to others ?


----------



## bothrops

corns are cool said:


> i have researched the subject and i acually agree with createing new morphs and strains for people to enjoy are hobby with a more variaty of coulors but sometimes just a question pops up now and again like " how far can we acually go when breeding animals before disease and defects take over" things like enigma syndrome in leopard geckos and star gazing in sunkissed corn snakes and the albino carpet python death gene are we trying to reduce the numbers who are affected with this or just keep breeding them to pass on to others ?


 
That's a much better version of your previous post!:2thumb:


----------



## corns are cool

bothrops said:


> That's a much better version of your previous post!:2thumb:


yeah maybe i should of tryed explaining myself abit befor i open my big mouth :bash:


----------



## Madhouse5

bothrops said:


> It's not that you 'can' or 'can't'....it's that some people do and some people don't. It all depends on your moral and ethical 'lines-in-the-sand'.
> 
> I'm guessing that the enigma leo breeders lines tend to be slightly different to the spider royal breeders lines? - Still, a discussion for another thread so I don't get shouted at for taking the thread off-topic or turning it into a debate!:Na_Na_Na_Na:


the problem you have in a leopard gecko with enigma syndrome in extreme cases can not feed it self and will die were the spider royal even in the worst cases is known to be a relay good feeders and live a long life the only thing most breeders say is never do spider gene to spider gene breeding


----------



## powerpuffruth

*Kinking in Lavander corns*

Just been reading through this thread very informative :2thumb:

With regards to what a few people have said about lavander corns just a bit of circumstantial evidence. This year I've seen absolutley loads of kinked lavender corns on offer on various forums and on preloved. I think the lavanders are definitly more prone to it than other corn morphs as I would say about 7/10 kinked snakes I've seen offered this year have been lavanders. Anyone found out anymore about it?


----------



## eeji

I think the lavender 'thing' is all down to the lineage so may not even be linked specifically to lavender itself. All the lavender stuff I've had has been fine and kink free (mostly all from different sources).


----------



## corns are cool

funny you should say that eeji i have been working with the lavender morph for 2 years now and have only had one kinked baby like you say it could just be different bloodlines


----------



## GitaBooks

List of genetic defects/mutations in reptile morphs (from research on the internet, so some things may not be true):

BALL PYTHONS
Spider genes: any spider morph ball may suffer from mild to severe wobbles and thought to be lethal in homozygous form (doubling of the gene).
Woma and Hidden Gene Woma: Wobbles
Champagne: Wobble
Super Sable: Wobble
Powerball: Wobble
Sable x Spider: severe wobbles and difficulty hatching
Champagne x Spider: Lethal gene
Spider x Woma: Lethal
Champagne x Hidden Gene Woma: Severe Wobbles
Pearl: often times lethal
Super Champagne: lethal
Desert: fertility issues in the females
Caramel Albino: lower fertility in females and kinking
Super Cinnamon/Super Black Pastel: Duckbill and more rarely kinking
Super Lesser Platinum/Super Butter: bug-eyes
Lesser Platinum x Piebald: Small eyes
Banana/Coral Glow: the males may produce weird gender ratios
Albino: Associated with eye problems, inbreeding, and perhaps lowered immunity.
Blue Eyed Lucy: they may develop bug-eyes
Lavender: in some blood-lines their may be kinking

FAT-TAILED GECKO
Super White-out: Lethal
Albino: Linked with neurological conditions in some species of animal, as well as blindness and skin cancer

RED-EARED SLIDER
Pastel: scute deformities, said to be sensitive and prone to early deaths
Albino: Sight issues, trouble feeding, and said to be more sensitive. With no melanin it may be more difficult to thermoregulate and filter UV light.

BOA CONSTRICTOR
Motley to Motley/Super Motley: Usually die around 1-2 years of age
Albino to Albino: some may have deformed litters
Super Jungle/Arabesque: prone to early death, weak livers, and infertility
Super Aztec: seem to suffer from lack of coordination
Blizzard: many blizzards seem to suffer from a lethal gene

HONDURAN MILK SNAKE
Extreme hypo: possibly a lethal gene and enlarged heart

TEXAS RAT SNAKE
Leucistic: some have bug-eyes

CARPET PYTHON
Jaguar: Neurological issues similar to spider puthons
Super Jag/Ivory: Lethal
Granite: inbred individuals are often deformed

CORN SNAKES
Caramel: Enlarged heart, weakness and sudden death
Striped: Enlarged heart, weakness and sudden death
Sunkissed: prone to stargazing, though this is seen in other morphs as well
Amel/Albino: as stated with the others, known to cause issues in other species and sight problems
Two-headed: besides the obvious, they are unable to behave freely and naturally
Scaless: while not degrading, there have been those who say snakes cannot behave as naturally and need special care (like with a hairless mammal)

LEOPARD GECKO
Enigma: Star gazing, circling, head shaking and head tilt, coordination problems, and sometimes death rolling
Line-bred snow: possible lethal
Gem Snow: possible lethal
TUG Snow: possible lethal

CRESTED GECKO
Polydactly: extra toes

BEARDED DRAGONS
Silkback: can more easily get burned and during breeding get torn skin, can't filter UV rays properly, difficulty shedding, also said to have eye problems and have difficulty thriving
Dunner: said to have eating problems
Short-snout/Pug dragon: large head, short snout, bug eyes, short-snouts can be related to breathing and bone issues in other species
......
Some strains of beardies are said to be more prone to airway issues and aggression

There are possibly others but hours of research turned up these. Feel free to add to this as I am very interested in the genetic variety of pet animals, their health, and behavior.

Hope this helps someone. : )


----------



## jh2o

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, I did a skim, but have been reading all day so it's not all going in any more. Thought I'd bring up an idea I had during the reading (I'm aware that no-one has commented on this thread in nearly a year. 

I've had a thought regarding how to add evidence for/against the lethality of the homogeneous spider gene without any need physical genetics testing - this would require a HUGE amount of data, possibly worthy of a little project between BHB, NERD, Bob Clark, etc. and any other interest data scientist (i'd happily do it if the data was readily available) but would rely on them all having the data to hand, and digitised, so here it is - if the homozygous form of spider leads to unviable offspring then the results should show in their slug numbers, unhatched eggs, or by clutch sizes compared with all other breedings.

For Spider-to-Spider breedings, statistically speaking the clutch sizes should be 3/4 of the size of any or all other clutches, given that 1/4 of the offspring (on average) would be unviable, IF the Homozygous form is lethal. 

You'd need huge datasets for this as the typical clutch size is ~6 eggs, and your variance on this (as well as on the subset relating specifically to spider-to-spider) would need to be small enough that you could confidently confirm a hypothesis either way.

I'm unaware of anyone having done this, but doing such a level of statistical analysis across the entire breeding industry would also allow us as a community to assess whether there are any other genetic dispositions to lethality too (e.g. HG Woma).

Going further still, one could go into e.g. adult weights/lengths, head diameters, male-to-female offspring ratios, to test whether specific morphs have a more voracious appetite, 'duckbill', male/female-maker tendencies too - though some of these are a given from experience.


----------



## GitaBooks

Testing is so important, and I feel as if there isn't enough of that with reptiles. Sort of like people don't care as much as they do with other types of pet animals. I can't wait to see how things progress in the future as more studies on their genetics and health as well as behavior are done.


----------



## jh2o

I agree; there will always be those with unscrupulous tendencies, but we really don't want to see the breeding of our magnificent animals going the way of many KC registered dog breeds - animal welfare should come before anything else, and some money should be going into genetic testing - maybe the guys at Heli-Gen are working on it?


----------



## GitaBooks

jh2o said:


> I agree; there will always be those with unscrupulous tendencies, but we really don't want to see the breeding of our magnificent animals going the way of many KC registered dog breeds - animal welfare should come before anything else, and some money should be going into genetic testing - maybe the guys at Heli-Gen are working on it?



SOOOO agree. I study genetic defects caused by "Show Breeding" and inbreeding in dogs, cats, ect and so I'm so glad reptiles aren't at that point. It's hard to fix dogs; it's far easier to just avoid bad things from happening in the first place through responsible breeding.


----------



## Barnezy

Does anyone know of any problems with leopard gene? IE males or females not being able to breed?


----------

