# She's so proud!!



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Tabitha my Manchester cat.
Just 10 minutes ago she came in through my bedroom window miouwing and creating such a fuss. She ran through into my study and at my feet right by my chair she dropped a vole.She sat back and allowed me to touch it and be suitably impressed that she managed to catch such a prize. After I'd admired it and photographed it, she scoffed it up , leaving only the stomach and the entire tail. Tabitha is now less of a Manchester cat and more of a country cat.


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## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

wow she ate it!? they usually bloomin leave them and you think 'what a waste, what did you kill it for?!!!' 
and you have a stinky old dead rat left on the floor :devil:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Cats should be kept in at night. Its safer for them, & they can't decimate the wildlife then.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

lizardloverrach said:


> wow she ate it!? they usually bloomin leave them and you think 'what a waste, what did you kill it for?!!!'
> and you have a stinky old dead rat left on the floor :devil:


my cats always eat what they kill and always leave the flipping stomach for me to step in with my bare feet lol.


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## Brat (Oct 7, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> Cats should be kept in at night. Its safer for them, & they can't decimate the wildlife then.


One of our cats brings poor little voles to the door all day 
Ours don't go outside past 8pm as if they go missing we'd worry like mad, sadly it's for our own sanity lol.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Brat said:


> One of our cats brings poor little voles to the door all day
> Ours don't go outside past 8pm as if they go missing we'd worry like mad, sadly it's for our own sanity lol.


 Grrr, don't quote the silly woman. I blocked him on purpose. Quite how I'm supposed to stop the cats going out of my bedroom window onto my own land and catching the rodents which are a pest on my land, I have no idea, even if I wanted to. My cats keep the rodent levels down and hunt in my barns, sheds and feed stores to do just that. It's what they are supposed to do after all.
Colin do you realise just how childish and petty you look when you post your spite on my threads despite knowing that I can't even se what you write because you are blocked. Just what do you hope to achieve? Why post if I can't see it?
It's about as sensible as you standing in your house and trying to hold a conversation with me.
Anyway, I'm proud of Tabitha's hunting abilities. I'm happy that all of my cats hunt and kill rodents which would otherwise spoil my animal feed, make holes in sacks and generally spread disease. But I wouldn't expect a townie like you to comprehend that.
BTW any more developments on the fire?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Brat said:


> One of our cats brings poor little voles to the door all day
> Ours don't go outside past 8pm as if they go missing we'd worry like mad, sadly it's for our own sanity lol.


I don't blame you for the curfew, I would worry like mad too if my 2 cats were out at night. Mine are house cats cos they are Siamese & the local scrotes would probably either nick them or set their pit bulls on them


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## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> my cats always eat what they kill and always leave the flipping stomach for me to step in with my bare feet lol.


 
charming! :flrt:


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## babymarley (Nov 24, 2009)

hmmm my cat brings them on my porch and looks at me like look i brought you a present. what a lovely gesture ay lol


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Grrr, don't quote the silly woman. I blocked him on purpose. Quite how I'm supposed to stop the cats going out of my bedroom window onto my own land and catching the rodents which are a pest on my land, I have no idea, even if I wanted to. My cats keep the rodent levels down and hunt in my barns, sheds and feed stores to do just that. It's what they are supposed to do after all.
> Colin do you realise just how childish and petty you look when you post your spite on my threads despite knowing that I can't even se what you write because you are blocked. Just what do you hope to achieve? Why post if I can't see it?
> It's about as sensible as you standing in your house and trying to hold a conversation with me.
> Anyway, I'm proud of Tabitha's hunting abilities. I'm happy that all of my cats hunt and kill rodents which would otherwise spoil my animal feed, make holes in sacks and generally spread disease. But I wouldn't expect a townie like you to comprehend that.
> BTW any more developments on the fire?


Here we go!

I posted as a general point to other members who might read your thread, not to wind you up! It is true that cats should not be allowed to roam at night, as not only may they get into trouble, they do a lot of hunting at night. Maybe try closing the bedroom window, or closing your bedroom door? Radical idea eh? And you should store your animal feeds in bins, not just in the sacks they come in. Thats asking for rodents to target it! And thanks for the townie label, showing your narrow-mindedness again.

ETA, will someone please quote this!


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## croc&chewy (Sep 21, 2009)

As sick as it may sound but thats a lovely photo lol, your cat is gorgeous. Looks like my Billie before we had her PTS due to a cancerous lump.. she got to about 12 year old and I still miss her after 3 years .

I do like it when they bring me stuff.. it's like a present for saying thank you for the roof over my head


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## MrsP (Apr 13, 2008)

We have a few cats that have chosen not to come in, they must be eating something they're catching, they all look to be in excellent condition. They sit on the doorstep to say hello and run away when we try to get them in.

Mine seem to eat mice, rats and frogs. As I keep poultry, I'm glad of the cats, we have no issue with rats around the chicken house.


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## Brat (Oct 7, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> I'm happy that all of my cats hunt and kill rodents


I hate it lol.. Stepping out the back door and narrowly missing a dead rodent cos the buggers just leave them there as a present. Then doing that stupid over-step - You know like when you try to avoid dog poop but then almost fall in it anyway ha!
I may be glad for Mu catching them when I have chickens though - Will be picking your brains when the time comes Fenny! :2thumb:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

she looks so proud :flrt:


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> Here we go!
> 
> I posted as a general point to other members who might read your thread, not to wind you up! It is true that cats should not be allowed to roam at night, as not only may they get into trouble, they do a lot of hunting at night. Maybe try closing the bedroom window, or closing your bedroom door? Radical idea eh? And you should store your animal feeds in bins, not just in the sacks they come in. Thats asking for rodents to target it! And thanks for the townie label, showing your narrow-mindedness again.
> 
> ETA, will someone please quote this!


Seeing as nobody else has done there you go.


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

Bah zoo-man, seriously...rats, mice, voles so on so 4th breed like nothing, they can have a litter every 21-23 days (rats anyway know nothing about breeding the others) 

Even if every single cat in the country did us a favor and got shot of vermin (i love rats! adore them, but hate wild rats, they spread disease and can even get in bins...they can chew through plastic did you know?)
there will never be enough cats, to affect the vermin population! never...

in the country, cats, and dogs are trained and allowed to kill. Its a simple thing that happens. Fenwoman has her own land, knows where her pets are, and as she said they are doing her a favor...

you know...just like working ferrets, or hounds that hunt, dogs that shoot down rat holes to kill them...

fen at least ur cat ate it! o_0 mine used to just spread it as far as she could to make as much mess as possible :bash:


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## Leliel (Mar 1, 2009)

i have 8 cats, and all of mine come and go as they please, but have progressed from bringing me in worms to live frogs, then from live frogs to birds...in about 4 pieces :bash: as far as i'm concerned, hunting is normal cat behaviour- if my cats hunt it shows that they're normal and happy. the fact that they all come back in for food is good enough for me- i run my eye over them then to check theyre all okay/there and they all get all the fuss and cuddles they want when they want it. they also keep my garden pest free- i'm hoping to get a couple of chickens this year, so keeping vermin at bay will be great, and there used to be a badger tunnel into our garden from next door, heard one hell of a racket one evening, looked outside and there was the badger in the garden, our 8 cats, next door's 3 and 2 houses' downs' 2 cats all facing it off... by the time i got outside with a broom to get rid of it (and to stop the cats being killed) they'd chased it off! i would never make my cats be house cats, i've got a large house but cats are outdoor animals. if i wanted an animal that had to ive exclusively indoors i'd get a degu or something. just my 2 cents lol : victory: 

at the end of the day, bickering over whether cats should be indoor or outdoor animals all/part of the time is'nt going to change the minds of anyone who already keeps them as pets. and although i can see why you would want to keep pure bred animals inside, you're just wasting time by typing out an argument thats going to get you nowhere. just relax guys- its only a forum! people will do what they want regardless of what anyone thinks. : victory:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Cats should be kept in at night. Its safer for them, & they can't decimate the wildlife then.


Cats 'decimate' wildlife even during the day time?


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## diamondlil (May 7, 2008)

What a clever cat! I only really objected when my old cats would bring crippled things in and let them go. I don't know if they wanted to help improve my hunting technique, but I learnt cervical dislocation well before I bred mice for the snakes!


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

diamondlil said:


> What a clever cat! I only really objected when my old cats would bring crippled things in and let them go. I don't know if they wanted to help improve my hunting technique, but I learnt cervical dislocation well before I bred mice for the snakes!


 
lufferly closest i get to pressies from mine is what they leave in the litter trays for me :lol2: i choose to keep them as indoor cats because i had cats pinched in the past 

but i do miss the pressies on the doorstep :lol2::lol2:


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## diamondlil (May 7, 2008)

Emmaj said:


> lufferly closest i get to pressies from mine is what they leave in the litter trays for me :lol2: i choose to keep them as indoor cats because i had cats pinched in the past
> 
> but i do miss the pressies on the doorstep :lol2::lol2:


My new cats are indoors only, but they do manage to steal thawing mice quite often, I only know when I think I've miscounted and then find a growling cat guarding her prize!


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

diamondlil said:


> My new cats are indoors only, but they do manage to steal thawing mice quite often, I only know when I think I've miscounted and then find a growling cat guarding her prize!


 
lol thats something i forgot when they were around 9 wks old clyde my lil boy managed to pinch one of the skunks chicks was funny watching him trying to lug it off being it was near the same size of him ha ha 

he didnt get too far before it was pinched back by the skunk :lol2::lol2:


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

My cats used to be amazing Ratters! So not all Manchester cats are crap hunters lol
We used to live near the Bridgewater Canal and all the cats would kill a massive amount of rats. Every Day I would find piles of dead rats all dumped in the hall. And if we had a rescue cat with kittens it was worse as our eldest and tinyest cat would kill triple the amount of rats as normal as she was obbsessed with feeding kittens no matter whos kittens they were. Some rats were the same size as she was lol

My cats are in a cattery now for a multiude of reasons.
1. Being that they would kill the chickens aswell, certainly the bantams lol
2. We live in an area where 2 cats have been shot in the last couple of years.
3. I like garden birds aswell.

Thankfully we don't have a problem with rats anymore, next door has 2 working jack russell ratters and they would kill anything that dared cross their garden. Otherwise I would be penning all the poultry and the cats would be out killing again. 

We rescue ferals and some are just not suitable for a home situation. When neutered and spayed, we have to find them farm or Stable yard homes, where their ratting and mousing skills come in handy.
In a rural area, with farms and feed stores. Cat are a needed. They keep mice and rats at bay. FACT. 

And yes, all my cats were just as good daytime killers as night time. It was the middle of the day when my Maine **** cross killed 2 of the neighbours dogs!


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## Moosey (Jan 7, 2008)

i used to be so proud when y cats bought me little presents! Especially when my special needs boy successfully hunted something for the first time :blush:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Cats are indiscriminate hunters - they do not know the difference between a house mouse & a harvest mouse, or a rat & a water shrew. They will kill regardless of whether their chosen prey item is vermin or a rare species of native wildlife. 

Yes, cats do enough damage to our wildlife in the daytime, but at night they are in their element.


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## diamondlil (May 7, 2008)

Pimperella said:


> My cats used to be amazing Ratters! So not all Manchester cats are crap hunters lol
> We used to live near the Bridgewater Canal and all the cats would kill a massive amount of rats. Every Day I would find piles of dead rats all dumped in the hall. And if we had a rescue cat with kittens it was worse as our eldest and tinyest cat would kill triple the amount of rats as normal as she was obbsessed with feeding kittens no matter whos kittens they were. Some rats were the same size as she was lol
> 
> My cats are in a cattery now for a multiude of reasons.
> ...


My friend has rehomed 4 feral cats to live in her stables. They are completely wild, so in the event of needing vet treatment the rescue will trap them and take them to their own vet. One of them is getting brave enough that we see him around the yard, the others still hide when people are about.


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## starburst (Apr 4, 2008)

That's a gorgeous kitty!

My old cat Pigeon (RIP) was so proud whenever she caught something! You could hear here approaching the house she was meowing so loudly. However she would usually bring me little presents that were still alive, so I'd put them back outside again. The worst one to catch though was a mole, which spent over an hour evading my attempts to catch it! The messiest was a huge grey squirrel that she decided to eat in the middle of the living room floor!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

croc&chewy said:


> As sick as it may sound but thats a lovely photo lol, your cat is gorgeous.


what Fenny hasn't mentioned is that Tabby was an RFUK rescue!

She was taken to Emma by another forum member who managed to get her from her neighbour. She had already had 3 litters of kittens and had/was still feeding the other litter but the owner (not person who brought her) kept the kittens even though they were 4/5 wks old 

Emma couldn't keep her so Fenny said she would take her. 

She was only approx 8-10 monthish old, had had 3 litters of kittens and was in an appalling state. She was so thin and was at risk of mastitis as she was still filling with milk with no babies suckling off her. In fact many of us who followed her story weren't even sure that she would manage to get through this and might have to be pts.

Pam has turned her around and she's now obviously a very happy cat - she deserves the good home she has now and I for one am happy that she is living such a natural cat life, after her awful start!


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

feorag said:


> what Fenny hasn't mentioned is that Tabby was an RFUK rescue!
> 
> She was taken to Emma by another forum member who managed to get her from her neighbour. She had already had 3 litters of kittens and had/was still feeding the other litter but the owner (not person who brought her) kept the kittens even though they were 4/5 wks old
> 
> ...


 
Thank you eileen exactly that 

when tabby 1st went to pam her future was very uncertain due to the horrendus state she was in 

Pam save this girls life and to look at pictures now I cant believe she is the same cat 

So why begrudge her being a damn cat ?

I cant see how a cat going out hunting is any worse than greedy people killing our wildlifes habitats to build houses or other things on them


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## croc&chewy (Sep 21, 2009)

feorag said:


> what Fenny hasn't mentioned is that Tabby was an RFUK rescue!
> 
> She was taken to Emma by another forum member who managed to get her from her neighbour. She had already had 3 litters of kittens and had/was still feeding the other litter but the owner (not person who brought her) kept the kittens even though they were 4/5 wks old
> 
> ...


What an awful start that was for her. 3 litters of kittens at that age? Poor thing.. looks like she's landed right on her feet now then :lol2:


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## rach666 (Dec 12, 2006)

my cats pure evil,he just kills for pure fun.
tossing and whacking poor lil creatures round the garden,he brings them to the patio door,and rolls on them looking ever so happy

cruel git !:flrt:

he stays in at night though as the last time i left him i found him nearly dead in the bushes after being hit by a car.:bash:




p.s fenwomen she looks like she was asking for your approval haha


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

Why do they leave the stomachs?? (Never owned a cat so clueless but interested )


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

babymarley said:


> hmmm my cat brings them on my porch and looks at me like look i brought you a present. what a lovely gesture ay lol


 And you have to act suitably impressed otherwise they get a really hurt and offended look on their face and don't speak to you for 3 days. :lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Brat said:


> I hate it lol.. Stepping out the back door and narrowly missing a dead rodent cos the buggers just leave them there as a present. Then doing that stupid over-step - You know like when you try to avoid dog poop but then almost fall in it anyway ha!
> I may be glad for Mu catching them when I have chickens though - Will be picking your brains when the time comes Fenny! :2thumb:


Pick away at whatever brains you might find lol.
I think the worst was when one of them brought me an adult rabbit, but was unable to get it through the cat flap so left it outside the back door. Only problem is that the back door opens outwards and I couldn't open it. I had to get on my hands and knees and put my arm through the cat flap and shift it before I was able to go outside. hehe. I used to have a cat who brought me whole adult pheasants and one of mine brings me stoats. While I feel some regret at the latter I have to be sensible. A single stoat can decimate a poultry house.


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## Brat (Oct 7, 2007)

I've only ever seen a cat bring a rabbit home once! I was shocked, all the cats I've ever had have brought rodents.. largest being rats from the brook which used to run behind my old house. She was throwing the rabbit around in the garden and I went out later on to feed the chickens and all that was left was a bit of the insides.. Couldn't believe she ate it! This was the cat at work.. She's very odd. Sometimes acts reallllly feral, then other times you can't get her off your lap!


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Brat said:


> I've only ever seen a cat bring a rabbit home once! I was shocked, all the cats I've ever had have brought rodents.. largest being rats from the brook which used to run behind my old house. She was throwing the rabbit around in the garden and I went out later on to feed the chickens and all that was left was a bit of the insides.. Couldn't believe she ate it! This was the cat at work.. She's very odd. Sometimes acts reallllly feral, then other times you can't get her off your lap!


 All of mine are affectionate snuggle bugs. Tabitha has 'issues'. I know she likes me, but she is very unpredictable. OUt of all my cats she is the most difficult. She walks about growling and hissing, and will lash out at any cat or dog who tries to go past.She isn't afraid, she's just bloody grumpy. If she's sitting on the back of my chair while I relax and knit, I daren't move my head because she sinks teeth and claws into my scalp, then dashes away. It's almost like she is punishing me, for the neglect she got at the hands of humans in the past. Still, she brought me the vole.


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## Brat (Oct 7, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> All of mine are affectionate snuggle bugs. Tabitha has 'issues'. I know she likes me, but she is very unpredictable. OUt of all my cats she is the most difficult. She walks about growling and hissing, and will lash out at any cat or dog who tries to go past.She isn't afraid, she's just bloody grumpy. If she's sitting on the back of my chair while I relax and knit, I daren't move my head because she sinks teeth and claws into my scalp, then dashes away. It's almost like she is punishing me, for the neglect she got at the hands of humans in the past. Still, she brought me the vole.


That's exactly how Katy is! She's nice as pie one minute, then next she's biting the baby's back for no reason and you only have to walk past her and she will attack your leg. Yet I can sit there at night for hours and she will lie on my lap having loads of fuss. Jekyll n Hyde!
Have popped up a thread about chickens.. brain picking (Or pecking!) time!


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## Brat (Oct 7, 2007)

Oh and I have a grumpy tabby too lol -


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Brat said:


> Oh and I have a grumpy tabby too lol -
> 
> image


 Hahaha. She could be Tabitha's twin :lol2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Emmaj said:


> Thank you eileen exactly that
> 
> when tabby 1st went to pam her future was very uncertain due to the horrendus state she was in
> 
> ...


A damn cat indeed! I think all cats should be brought in at night. What if it was a Great Crested Newt, or a Bechsteins Bat, or a Tree Sparrow that had been caught?

The destruction of our wild places for construction is terrible, just like the effect that cats have on our wildlife. Look at what the feral cats are doing to Australia's native animal species.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Zoo-Man said:


> A damn cat indeed! I think all cats should be brought in at night. What if it was a Great Crested Newt, or a Bechsteins Bat, or a Tree Sparrow that had been caught?
> 
> The destruction of our wild places for construction is terrible, just like the effect that cats have on our wildlife. Look at what the feral cats are doing to Australia's native animal species.


yeah and they can catch newts and sparrows during the day to, so if you dont want them to kill shouldn't they be kept inside in the day to

the farm cats at the yard used to like leaving there kills in the tack room, they brought in all sorts they were always so proud one had a thing for stoats, and then one of the cats and the fish farm likes to go onto the golf course and catch rabbits bring them back and eat them in the customer toilets he then would waddle out with a huge fat stomach he would look preggies he never left anything except head and tail :lol2:

the other like to fish and likes nicking the trout out of the growing on ponds


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

bosshogg said:


> *yeah and they can catch newts and sparrows during the day to, so if you dont want them to kill shouldn't they be kept inside in the day to*
> 
> the farm cats at the yard used to like leaving there kills in the tack room, they brought in all sorts they were always so proud one had a thing for stoats, and then one of the cats and the fish farm likes to go onto the golf course and catch rabbits bring them back and eat them in the customer toilets he then would waddle out with a huge fat stomach he would look preggies he never left anything except head and tail :lol2:
> 
> the other like to fish and likes nicking the trout out of the growing on ponds


Some people would say so, yes!


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

bosshogg said:


> yeah and they can catch newts and sparrows during the day to, so if you dont want them to kill shouldn't they be kept inside in the day to
> 
> the farm cats at the yard used to like leaving there kills in the tack room, they brought in all sorts they were always so proud one had a thing for stoats, and then one of the cats and the fish farm likes to go onto the golf course and catch rabbits bring them back and eat them in the customer toilets he then would waddle out with a huge fat stomach he would look preggies he never left anything except head and tail :lol2:
> 
> the other like to fish and likes nicking the trout out of the growing on ponds


 I'm not planning on keeping my country cats indoors all the time. They enjoy being out. They enjoy sleepin gon my bed with me and the dogs and I have to have the window open all year around so of course they go out over the bathroom roof onto my land. The cats hunt and keep vermin down. That's what cats do, it's what I want them to do. Perhaps I should keep them all locked in cages with the dogs? They can have big wheels to run about in for excersize and be happy, never feeling the wind ruffling their fur or feeling the sunshine on their backs as they sunbathe on the aviary block roof?
Best keep them confined in the house just in case they catch a newt despite there being no newts anywhere on my land, or a rare bat, despite there not being any bats at all on my land, or a 'tree sparrow'? Not sure what species this is, perhaps a dunnock, or hedge sparrow. 
I'm afraid the happiness ofmy cats come before any flipping sparrow, hedge, house or otherwise.
They are happy, I am happy and that's all that matters.
There seems to be a massive difference in how country folk keep their cats and how town folk keep them. Same as dogs, with town folk keeping them in cages and country folk letting them behave like dogs and run about, get muddy, play outside, snooze on the mat by the rayburn. Besides, it's need a flipping big cage for Ursa :lol2:
I wonder what Tabitha will bring me tonight?:whistling2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> I'm not planning on keeping my country cats indoors all the time. They enjoy being out. They enjoy sleepin gon my bed with me and the dogs and I have to have the window open all year around so of course they go out over the bathroom roof onto my land. The cats hunt and keep vermin down. That's what cats do, it's what I want them to do. Perhaps I should keep them all locked in cages with the dogs? They can have big wheels to run about in for excersize and be happy, never feeling the wind ruffling their fur or feeling the sunshine on their backs as they sunbathe on the aviary block roof?
> Best keep them confined in the house just in case they catch a newt despite there being no newts anywhere on my land, or a rare bat, despite there not being any bats at all on my land, or a 'tree sparrow'? Not sure what species this is, perhaps a dunnock, or hedge sparrow.
> I'm afraid the happiness ofmy cats come before any flipping sparrow, hedge, house or otherwise.
> They are happy, I am happy and that's all that matters.
> ...


A Tree Sparrow! An increasingly rare species, similar in looks to the commoner (though declining) House Sparrow! 
The RSPB: Tree sparrow

If everyone had the attitude of "as long as my cat is happy, I dont care about the native wildlife", we would have even less wildlife than we do at the moment! Then the countryside you so often mention would be a much duller place.

And why cage a cat when just keeping it in the house would suffice? Maybe the cage reference was a dig at me & my dog crate eh? :whistling2:
:lol2:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> I'm not planning on keeping my country cats indoors all the time. They enjoy being out. They enjoy sleepin gon my bed with me and the dogs and I have to have the window open all year around so of course they go out over the bathroom roof onto my land. The cats hunt and keep vermin down. That's what cats do, it's what I want them to do. Perhaps I should keep them all locked in cages with the dogs? They can have big wheels to run about in for excersize and be happy, never feeling the wind ruffling their fur or feeling the sunshine on their backs as they sunbathe on the aviary block roof?
> Best keep them confined in the house just in case they catch a newt despite there being no newts anywhere on my land, or a rare bat, despite there not being any bats at all on my land, or a 'tree sparrow'? Not sure what species this is, perhaps a dunnock, or hedge sparrow.
> I'm afraid the happiness ofmy cats come before any flipping sparrow, hedge, house or otherwise.
> They are happy, I am happy and that's all that matters.
> ...


I wouldnt expect you to if i had a cat he/sh would be allowed to come and go as it wanted, just like the cats on the farm that like to sit at the stable and watch us clean out and also like to sit on out knees when we are having a cuppa there just so happy and chilld i just couldn't get why zooman just says bring the cat in on a night and not a daytime as they will kill just the same no matter what the time of day is!

the argrument about cats and wild birds is a long standing one, but I will say i have one neighbour who has 9 cats, another with 2 another with 4 and my next door neighbour has one, all are allowed to free roam and on my birdfeeder i still get loads of birds, dunnocks, goldfinches, chaffinches, bull finches, wag tails, long tailed tits, blue tits, great tits, sparrows, starlings you name it, and i have never seen a dead one, around seen mice, rats, voles though 

but according to you i should not have any as the cats should have killed them all


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

bosshogg said:


> I wouldnt expect you to if i had a cat he/sh would be allowed to come and go as it wanted, just like the cats on the farm that like to sit at the stable and watch us clean out and also like to sit on out knees when we are having a cuppa there just so happy and chilld i just couldn't get why zooman just says bring the cat in on a night and not a daytime as they will kill just the same no matter what the time of day is!
> 
> the argrument about cats and wild birds is a long standing one, but I will say i have one neighbour who has 9 cats, another with 2 another with 4 and my next door neighbour has one, all are allowed to free roam and on my birdfeeder i still get loads of birds, dunnocks, goldfinches, chaffinches, bull finches, wag tails, long tailed tits, blue tits, great tits, sparrows, starlings you name it, and i have never seen a dead one, around seen mice, rats, voles though
> 
> but according to you i should not have any as the cats should have killed them all


A bit extreme there! I did not say cats would have killed them ALL! Just enough along the way to have an effect on numbers over time & in a set area.

Yes, cats do hunt in the daytime, but aren't cats mainly nocturnal by nature? Therefore they would do the majority of hunting at night.

Also, & even more importantly to pet owners, is the threat of their cat being run over (as someone has already mentioned), attacked, stolen, becoming trapped, getting lost, etc etc. I would prefer to know wher my cat was at night.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

But Colin, you have to accept that if the cat was kept in all night it would sleep most of that time. Then when it went out during the daytime it would be wide awake and in hunt mode, if it enjoyed hunting.

I get involved in this type of conversation all the time, cats and wildlife - I'm not joining in that argument because I see both sides, just wanted to put that point!:blush:


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## Ozgi (Jun 1, 2008)

Cats account for the death of approximately 55 million wild birds each year in the UK alone.

Whilst there are many responsible cat owners, there are also many that aren't.

Bird deaths can be prevented by simple actions such as fitting a bell to the cats collar and not allowing it out at dawn or dusk, the two times when birds are most vulnerable.

Sadly most people just don't give a s***.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Sorry but it has been proven that bells don't work, cos cats learn to move so slowly and stealthily that the bell doesn't ring until the cat actually pounces and usually by then it's too late.

Also I presume you have considered the fact that tree sparrows and other garden birds won't be out and about at night cos they aren't nocturnal?

However, you cannot rule out other wildlife that preys on birds, such as sparrowhawks etc, who must also kill birds in their thousands??

Quote:

_Cats are frequently singled out as the primary reason for the disappearance of Britain's songbirds. But is this label really justified? SongBird Survival thinks not!_


_In its 1997 survey, the Mammal Society recorded the predation habits of nearly 1,000 cats between the 1st of April and the 31st August. Those taking part were everyday cat owners who had responded to a media drive started by the BBC's Wildlife Magazine and followed up in a range of newspaper, magazine and radio articles. The results obtained were then analysed by Dr.Robbie MacDonald of Bristol University._


_This survey indicated that the sample accounted for over 14,000 'kills', made up of mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians, although 66 cats killed nothing at all. Dr. MacDonald believes that if these results are coupled with other existing survey work, it shows that Britain's cat population is capable of killing a massive 250 million creatures in a year, or more than 37 prey items each._


*CONCLUSION*
_As with all things, there are two sides to the argument. Clearly the desire to hunt is an inherited feature of cats, although it does appear that this instinct could be dulled by their reduced need to catch their own food. Coupled with this, the effects of the long-term neutering programme means that only half a million or so kittens are now born in Britain each year. The Whiskas Cat Report 2002 states that the total cat product and service market in the UK is now thought to be worth around ?1.5 billion annually. This equates to an average spend of ?192 on each cat per year._

_If we compare the predation rates of cats and sparrowhawks on birds alone, this highlights some very interesting facts. For example, Britain's population of 10 million cats is said by the CPL to be responsible for killing 55 million songbirds each year - an average of 5.5 per cat. Yet by comparison, and calculating from the predation rate quoted by Dr Ian Newton in his book The Sparrowhawk, the UK's estimated population of 100,000 sparrowhawks will slaughter in excess of 100 million songbirds during the same period - an average of 1,000 'kills' per sparrowhawk._


_This strongly indicates that sparrowhawks are responsible for killing almost DOUBLE the total number of songbirds predated by cats. And on a 'one-to-one' basis, each sparrowhawk kills the same number of songbirds as the total taken by 180 cats!_


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## sundia (May 28, 2009)

my cat has yet to bring anything in... thats probably because shes not been out.... her mum ran away and rehomed herself just before christmas (we never owned the mum) and im scared saskia will do the same :/


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

Predators are not thought to be behind the decline of any of the UK's wild birds, there is a study currently going on investigating the impact of cats (this covers the disturbance cats cause rather than just the killing of them as disturbance of birds could be just as damaging as actually killing them) but in general all studies point to NO predators having a damaging effect, all the damage is the result of human activity, changing farming methods, pesticides reducing the numbers of insects, draining of land, the new trend of paving over gardens etc. 

I don't like domestic cats (with the exception of working cats) killing wildlife purely because it is something that I feel all cat owners should work to avoid as it is an unneccessary threat to wildlife that we do have some degree of control over.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Ozgi said:


> Cats account for the death of approximately 55 million wild birds each year in the UK alone.
> 
> Whilst there are many responsible cat owners, there are also many that aren't.
> 
> ...


 And how many wild birds are killed by loss of habitat, lack of proper food, and chemical sprays decimating the bugs and greenfly needed to rear nestlings? Gardeners who spray the greenfly on their plants, ensure that the valuable high protein insects get fed to nests full of baby birds who die from being poisoned.
How can you explain the fact that although I have 18 cats, I also have an ever increasing piopulation of birds on my land to include green and gold finches, great tits, blackbirds, thrushes, dunnocks, 2 territories with robins and wrens and many more.
I do give a sh*t, which is why I never use any sprays on my land, nor have I for the 13 years I've lived here. I also ensure I don't have the land meticulously tidy so that there are plenty of places where woodlice, grubs, beetles and bugs live, fo rthe birds to eat. Masses of mature hedging ensures good safe nesting places too.
I'm not about to put collars on any of my cats. They are dangerous. And scientific studies show that audible warning like bells, warn rodents. Birds don't take any notice of them. Birds need visual warnings like a small mirror on a collar.
It ssips me off that probably all the people moaning about my cats killing wildlife, probably spray their gardens, have everything ultra tidy with neat fences and nowhere for wildlife to breed.
I live way out in the sticks, have land, have livestock and my cats are country cats. They roam my land and the surrounding fields and they hunt. It's what cats do for goodness sakes.
Don't tell me about what is decimating the bird population because studies have shown that modern farming practices have the greatest impact on wildlife, not cats.
<mutters>bleddy sanctimonious know-it-alls who know nothing<mutters>


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

starburst said:


> That's a gorgeous kitty!
> 
> My old cat Pigeon (RIP) was so proud whenever she caught something! You could hear here approaching the house she was meowing so loudly. However she would usually bring me little presents that were still alive, so I'd put them back outside again. The worst one to catch though was a mole, which spent over an hour evading my attempts to catch it! The messiest was a huge grey squirrel that she decided to eat in the middle of the living room floor!


yes, the miouw is what I call the mousie song. It's quite distinctive and translated it goes "come and see, come and see, here's a mousie for your tea. Warm and squishy on your tongue, but you can only have it if you're young". All my adult females hunt like mad if there are kittens or puppies about the place. Perhaps Tabitha thinks I'm in need of feeding up :lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

feorag said:


> Sorry but it has been proven that bells don't work, cos cats learn to move so slowly and stealthily that the bell doesn't ring until the cat actually pounces and usually by then it's too late.
> 
> Also I presume you have considered the fact that tree sparrows and other garden birds won't be out and about at night cos they aren't nocturnal?
> 
> ...


 I think all sparrowhawks need to be captured and kept in aviaries then!!:lol2:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

It's strange these things have only come about in 'recent' times (around the times more and more pesticides are being used, less territory for widlife etc)....Strange! :whistling2:

I don't think any animals need to be stopped from hunting (Cats, Sparrowhawks, and otherwise), I think more territory should be allowed for wildlife and tighter restrictions on pesticides are what's needed to allow populations to recoup.


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## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> And how many wild birds are killed by loss of habitat, lack of proper food, and chemical sprays decimating the bugs and greenfly needed to rear nestlings? Gardeners who spray the greenfly on their plants, ensure that the valuable high protein insects get fed to nests full of baby birds who die from being poisoned.
> How can you explain the fact that although I have 18 cats, I also have an ever increasing piopulation of birds on my land to include green and gold finches, great tits, blackbirds, thrushes, dunnocks, 2 territories with robins and wrens and many more.
> I do give a sh*t, which is why I never use any sprays on my land, nor have I for the 13 years I've lived here. I also ensure I don't have the land meticulously tidy so that there are plenty of places where woodlice, grubs, beetles and bugs live, fo rthe birds to eat. Masses of mature hedging ensures good safe nesting places too.
> I'm not about to put collars on any of my cats. They are dangerous. And scientific studies show that audible warning like bells, warn rodents. Birds don't take any notice of them. Birds need visual warnings like a small mirror on a collar.
> ...


i do agree with you here i will admit...BUT i do find it funny how you become so defensive when someone questions you or your methods/way of thinking, yet it is fine for you to be rude and judgemental to others, just the other day i found your comment regarding my post on the BARF thread offensive...yet that is fine? are others not allowed opinions if it does not agree with yours?....i dont know you at all, and i am sure you are probably a very nice person in the real world...but i will say, you also are quick to judge others without knowing them! sorry this is going off topic...back to the original topic, nice catch and at least she ate it...nice to see it wasn`t wasted!


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## leggy (Jan 18, 2007)

My tom cat loves ratting and we certainly wont stop him even if he leaves them half eaten or skinned on the lawn in the summer 
i dont think the uks cat population is going to affect the wildlife compared to pollutation,habitat loss,raptor and corvid population growth and other environmental issues.


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## daftlassieEmma (Oct 23, 2008)

SilverSteno said:


> Predators are not thought to be behind the decline of any of the UK's wild birds, there is a study currently going on investigating the impact of cats (this covers the disturbance cats cause rather than just the killing of them as disturbance of birds could be just as damaging as actually killing them) but in general all studies point to NO predators having a damaging effect, all the damage is the result of human activity, changing farming methods, pesticides reducing the numbers of insects, draining of land, the new trend of paving over gardens etc.
> 
> I don't like domestic cats (with the exception of working cats) killing wildlife purely because it is something that I feel all cat owners should work to avoid as it is an unneccessary threat to wildlife that we do have some degree of control over.


amen to that  although i do actually like cats...

taking goldfish/koi from someone's pond is a whole other story though :gasp:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> And how many wild birds are killed by loss of habitat, lack of proper food, and chemical sprays decimating the bugs and greenfly needed to rear nestlings? Gardeners who spray the greenfly on their plants, ensure that the valuable high protein insects get fed to nests full of baby birds who die from being poisoned.
> How can you explain the fact that although I have 18 cats, I also have an ever increasing piopulation of birds on my land to include green and gold finches, great tits, blackbirds, thrushes, dunnocks, 2 territories with robins and wrens and many more.
> *I do give a sh*t*, which is why I never use any sprays on my land, nor have I for the 13 years I've lived here. I also ensure I don't have the land meticulously tidy so that there are plenty of places where woodlice, grubs, beetles and bugs live, fo rthe birds to eat. Masses of mature hedging ensures good safe nesting places too.
> I'm not about to put collars on any of my cats. They are dangerous. And scientific studies show that audible warning like bells, warn rodents. Birds don't take any notice of them. Birds need visual warnings like a small mirror on a collar.
> ...


 
But you said this in an earlier post! :whistling2:

"I'm afraid the happiness ofmy cats come before any flipping sparrow, hedge, house or otherwise.
They are happy, I am happy and that's all that matters."

And my garden isn't neat & unnatural.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Natural predators such as Sparrowhawks obviously kill garden birds, but this is out of necessity. Cats do not hunt out of necessity.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

Magpies have been proved to have been the cause of predation loss of our native song birds along with grey Squirrels, which eat nests full of bird eggs.

I have seen many a Magpie dragging baby birds out of nests, killing them and just leaving them to rot. And many a squirrel raided a nest of it's contents, eggs or chicks.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> Natural predators such as Sparrowhawks obviously kill garden birds, but this is out of necessity. Cats do not hunt out of necessity.


I appreciate this Colin, but my point was even if everyone in the country kept their cats indoors 24/7 (and they would have to do that anyway because only some owls and the nightjar are nocturnal) our bird population would still be in trouble because of other perils, such as BOP, corvids, insecticides, and grey (as Pimp has pointed out!) *and red* squirrels - and of course don't forget man with his little guns!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

feorag said:


> I appreciate this Colin, but my point was even if everyone in the country kept their cats indoors 24/7 (and they would have to do that anyway because only some owls and the nightjar are nocturnal) our bird population would still be in trouble because of other perils, such as BOP, corvids, insecticides, and grey (as Pimp has pointed out!) *and red* squirrels - and of course don't forget man with his little guns!


I doubt the bird population would be in real trouble due to natural predators. I would say only man's interferance & cat predation would really topple the wild bird numbers to the extent that we saw radical reductions in numbers.


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## ukphd (Mar 29, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> I doubt the bird population would be in real trouble due to natural predators. I would say only man's interferance & cat predation would really topple the wild bird numbers to the extent that we saw radical reductions in numbers.



Domestic cats have been in Britain for years, most likely since Roman times, and until recently all those domestic cats were allowed to roam and hunt at will (and for much of that time they weren't fed at all so got ALL their food from hunting). I sincerely doubt that cat predation is now a significant factor in the demise of song birds, unless it has been causing a decline since Roman times... Just as "natural" predators aren't causing real trouble, neither are cats. To all intents and purposes cats are effectively a natural predator for birds in this country now.

It may be a contributory factor, along with natural predation on birds, eggs and nests, but evidence suggests there are a host of other, more critical issues that are causing the decline - notably, as you say, human impacts.


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## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

Fenwomans cats are obviously serving a useful purpose to her, 
she has land, barns and they keep the rodent numbers down in a natural way without using poisons. 
Dont get me wrong, i dont even really like cats, but if something is serving a purpose thats great. 
Town cats are another matter, they irritate me, they s*it in my garden, scratch the car and wind the dog up!:lol2: and i dont feed the birds becuase theres about 8 cats in my row of houses :whip:


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

Pimperella said:


> Magpies have been proved to have been the cause of predation loss of our native song birds along with grey Squirrels, which eat nests full of bird eggs.
> 
> I have seen many a Magpie dragging baby birds out of nests, killing them and just leaving them to rot. And many a squirrel raided a nest of it's contents, eggs or chicks.


Of course birds lose chicks to predators, that is natural (and even though grey squirrels are introduced, red squirrels also predate eggs and chicks). The reason why birds have two, sometimes even three broods of a dozen eggs is because they expect heavy loses to predators whether magpie, squirrel, woodpecker, BoP, fox, stoat, weasel, heron...there is a LONG list of potential predators out there, but these have always been there. They are not behind the decline, might as well blame blue tits for the decline of butterflies since they eat so many caterpillars! The whole food web is in trouble, it isn't as simple as blaming it on any predator whether hawk or blue tit, things are wrong at the very base of the food chain which effects all the others. Insects and other invertebrates are vanishing and they are cruicial for a lot of other species directly or indirectly. The other problem is there are becoming fewer and fewer safe nesting sites for birds with old trees that provide holes to nest in being cut down because of "health and safety", hedges been cut right back, even in the nesting season! Changes in farming such as removal of hedges further took away nesting sites, hiding places, insects and berries that birds need to survive, fortunately many farms are now bringing back hedgerows and this has been shown to be beneficial, along with other changes such as waiting to plough fields so that seeds still remain on the ground for birds to find and altering the times on which any chemicals are used to minimise the impact on wildlife but still produce a good yield of crops.

Blaming predators is an easy way out so people don't feel guity at ripping out that native hedgerow that had been in the garden for decades, spraying the grass with pesticides and herbicides, or chosing that big flowery exotic plant upon which no native species benefit that overshadows everything else. It is a lot easier to blame a predator than ourselves, whether baming sparrowhawks for the decline of songbirds or whales for the decline of fish stocks.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Surely that's what most us are saying on here - you can't blame it all on cats!

As usual human intervention is doing more harm than any other species - and that's not just in the decline of songbirds!


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

feorag said:


> Surely that's what most us are saying on here - you can't blame it all on cats!
> 
> As usual human intervention is doing more harm than any other species - and that's not just in the decline of songbirds!


I'm confused, is that a reply to me because I was responding to Pimperella?


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## Exotic Mad (Jul 11, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> A Tree Sparrow! An increasingly rare species, similar in looks to the commoner (though declining) House Sparrow!
> The RSPB: Tree sparrow
> 
> If everyone had the attitude of "as long as my cat is happy, I dont care about the native wildlife", we would have even less wildlife than we do at the moment! Then the countryside you so often mention would be a much duller place.
> ...


ooh are you evil for crating your dog too? :lol2:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

SilverSteno said:


> .Blaming predators is an easy way out so people don't feel guity at ripping out that native hedgerow that had been in the garden for decades, spraying the grass with pesticides and herbicides, or chosing that big flowery exotic plant upon which no native species benefit that overshadows everything else. It is a lot easier to blame a predator than ourselves, whether baming sparrowhawks for the decline of songbirds or whales for the decline of fish stocks.


It was a response to this.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Exotic Mad said:


> ooh are you evil for crating your dog too? :lol2:


Yes, very! Were your legs slapped for it too?


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## Exotic Mad (Jul 11, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> Yes, very! Were your legs slapped for it too?


yes i'm bad too :lol2: apparentlyit should be illegal


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Exotic Mad said:


> yes i'm bad too :lol2: apparentlyit should be illegal


:lol2:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Yes, very! Were your legs slapped for it too?



Fenwoman got on the bandwagon 'cause you potentially crated a dog? I'm sure she recommended it in the past, though. :hmm:


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## martyb (Sep 5, 2007)

I have a moggie and she doesn't go out at all, she loves it in side.


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> Fenwoman got on the bandwagon 'cause you potentially crated a dog? I'm sure she recommended it in the past, though. :hmm:


even if she didnt its highly hypocritical as shes used a shock collar


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## Exotic Mad (Jul 11, 2009)

ami_j said:


> even if she didnt its highly hypocritical as shes used a shock collar


i posted a thread asking for housetraining tips and was told off for using a crate. she said she thought it was illegal and if not then it should be and that i shouldn't expect her to learn if she was crated although i don't see how thats different to them sleeping in a room in my house


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> Fenwoman got on the bandwagon 'cause you potentially crated a dog? I'm sure she recommended it in the past, though. :hmm:


 I have never recommended keeping a dog in a cage. I hate the things.
And can we keep on topic are all you lot always going to hijack threads and do nothing but try to cause trouble? 
If my cats killed so many birds, I'm, only surprised that there are any birds at all on my land given that I've lived here for 13 years now. Unless of course, cats don't really cause as many problems as some small minded trouble makers would like to think they do?


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> I have never recommended keeping a dog in a cage. I hate the things.



I respect the last post and this will stay on-topic after this but I can't help but wonder, why, if you hate them did you post this?



fenwoman said:


> Do people still do cruel stuff like putting a dog's face in their toilet? I thought that went out in the olden days because it doesn't do anything.
> Remove his water at 7pm. Take him out for a wee at 11PM. *Make him sleep in a crate overnight.* I take it he is neutered? Have you had him to a vet recently to check for a kidney problem?
> Be a bit cruel to push his face into his urine if he has a kidney infection. Be a bit cruel to do that in any case but I came to the conclusion a long time ago that most pet owners are either thick or cruel anyway.
> I wonder if people potty train their babies by rubbing their faces in their dirty nappies and if not why not, since they think it works for dogs.
> ...


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/4113291-post11.html


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I have had many dogs in my life and have 11 at the minute and I have NEVER used a crate. If I wasnt in a position to spend time with my dogs and housetrain them with patience I wouldnt have got them

ETA What have crates got to do with Fenwomans cat?? It seems like every one of her threads turns into a bitchfest


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> I respect the last post and this will stay on-topic after this but I can't help but wonder, why, if you hate them did you post this?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/4113291-post11.html


 This was in response to someone with an adult dog who wee'd every single night, but not during the day IIRC. Letting a dog sleep in a crate overnight, is a whole lot different to keeping a dog in a crate during the day, then again at night which is what annoys me so much. Used only suring the night, the crate is nothing more than a bed.
Heck, I have 3 cages in my dog room. My dogs sleep in them. However, none of the doors is ever closed and none of the doors can be locked or fastened closed.
What I objected to so much with 'certain people' is that because they were too busy to pay attention to their dog, it was kept in a cage all day and again all night. A couple of the people on here who seem hell bent on causing trouble, are the ones who cage their dogs day and night and got offended when I said that this was out and out cruely IMO. And I'm afraid I stand by that opinion. Keeping dogs in cages for the majority of hours in a day is cruel!.
Anyway. Not one of the cats has been out hunting today. It's so grey and damp out that they've lazed by the range all flipping day. Mind, the ***** surrounding my land are almost full so they can't get over the big 10 acre behind me which is their favourite hunting ground.
I suspect that big Bertie the ex feral must be hunting though as he's only coming in for a bit of grub every 3 days or so. There are plenty of pheasants about though and he's been seen carrying a mature cock pheasant in his mouth and he ain't thin so he's obviously eating well.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> I have never recommended keeping a dog in a cage. I hate the things.
> And can we keep on topic are all you lot always going to hijack threads and do nothing but try to cause trouble?
> *If my cats killed so many birds, I'm, only surprised that there are any birds at all on my land given that I've lived here for 13 years now. Unless of course, cats don't really cause as many problems as some small minded trouble makers would like to think they do*?


Maybe birds have moved onto your land from other areas?

And I'm not small-minded thank you! :2thumb:


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## Exotic Mad (Jul 11, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> And can we keep on topic are all you lot always going to hijack threads and do nothing but try to cause trouble?


oh so its ok for you to comne on my thread asking for tips on house training (not your opinions on crate training a puppy) and hijack it but noone can take your off topic. sounds just about right for you


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