# Help with outcomes......



## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

If i breed an anery to a normal het snow what would the outcomes be? Same question, but for an anery to het albino.
Just for the record, we're talking KSBs.
Thanks, Ben.
P.S I tried to work it out but can't figure the punnet squares!!!! My brain is now aching!


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Normal het snow would be *AaXx* (het amel, het axanthic).
Axanthic would be *A*xx* (At least het "not amel", homozygous axanthic)
Albino would be *aaX** (at least het "not axanthic", homozygous Amel).
Het Albino would be *AaX* *(At least het for "not axanthic", heterozygous Amel)

So crossing an Axanthic* A*xx* to a normal het Axanthic/Amel *AaXx *would produce:

AAXx (het Axanthic)
AaXx (het amel and het axanthic)
AAxx (axanthic)
Aaxx (axanthic het amel). 

The two axanthic possibilities will be identical, so they'll be called "Axanthic 50% possible het Albino".
The two normal-looking possibilities will be identical, so they'll be called "het Axanthic, 50% possible het Amel"

Crossing the Axanthic *A*xx* to a normal het Amel *AaX** would make:

AAXx (Het Axanthic)
AaXx (Het Axanthic, het Amel)

These two normal-looking possibilities would be identical, so they would all be Het Axanthic 50% possible het Amel.


----------



## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanks, thats great - my girlfiend works it out and gives me loads of numbers that my brain can't cope with!!! Can i just ask, I'm of the understanding that axanthic is different to anery, and amel, is different to albino. Are they different variations of the same thing so can be produced from each other with line breeding? Why did you say axanthic when i said anery? Thanks, Ben


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Axanthic is lack of yellow pigment (which Kenyan sand boas have and produces the orange or yellow background colour)
Anerythristic is lack of red pigment (which Kenyans have - it forms the BROWN pigments, and is NOT removed when you have an Axanthic animal)

"Albino" is actually Latin for "White" - and an "albino" snake usually isn't.
"Amelanistic" more accurately describes these, as they are lacking the pigment melanin.


----------



## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

I get the amel thing (I think), but i thought there were both anery and axanthic morphs in KSBs. Or are they anery and axanthic at the same time?


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

I have not seen a true Anerythristic in Kenyans.

There are two types of amelanistic (normal and "paradox")


----------



## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

So i have an axanthic rather than anery? What would an anery look like? Would it still have the bright orange then with washed out dark bits?


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

Mujician said:


> I get the amel thing (I think), but i thought there were both anery and axanthic morphs in KSBs. Or are they anery and axanthic at the same time?


There are some Anery KSB's knocking about but you won't ever see them for public sale.

With the price of them, you would be better pickin up a Snow or a pair at Hamm etc, drop Den on here a PM I am sure she is selling or was selling a Snow male.


----------



## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

I'm sure i saw the snow den has - was it from hamm? Why's it being sold? I don't have enough money to buy one - thats why I'm goin gto breed one myself - it'll take a while but worth it to me. And i can sell off any excess - Sand boas seem to be gaining in popularity so hopefull if this stupid 'credit cruch' thing goes away, people will want to buy some. Just out of interest, how much would a snow be in a shop? I heard about 450 last year.


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Mujician said:


> So i have an axanthic rather than anery? What would an anery look like? Would it still have the bright orange then with washed out dark bits?


Not sure. I would guess they'd still display light yellow colouring, but have greyer-looking spotting.


----------



## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Not sure. I would guess they'd still display light yellow colouring, but have greyer-looking spotting.


 
My god you're a genius - where do you find all this out!!! Thanks very much. If anery and axanthic are different things, and albino and amel are different things when they are joined together, how do they produce the same thing? Or would aneryXalbino, make a different snow to axanthicXamel?


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

Mujician said:


> I'm sure i saw the snow den has - was it from hamm? Why's it being sold? I don't have enough money to buy one - thats why I'm goin gto breed one myself - it'll take a while but worth it to me. And i can sell off any excess - Sand boas seem to be gaining in popularity so hopefull if this stupid 'credit cruch' thing goes away, people will want to buy some. Just out of interest, how much would a snow be in a shop? I heard about 450 last year.


Don't know mate you would have to ask her that.

Snows in shops when they have em in can go for anythin between £350 - £600.


----------



## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

I'm thinking for morphs (when im lucky enough to have bred them) 150 for anery(axanthic :2thumb 200 for bino, and 300 for snow - that sound about right?


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Mujician said:


> My god you're a genius - where do you find all this out!!! Thanks very much. If anery and axanthic are different things, and albino and amel are different things when they are joined together, how do they produce the same thing? Or would aneryXalbino, make a different snow to axanthicXamel?


"Albino" is NOT a genetic trait. 

"Albino" is a generic word which can be used either to mean "missing black" (more correctly called Amelanistic), "Missing pigment" (in which case, an Axanthic is a "brown albino" - it's missing yellow pigment; an Amelanistic is a "red albino" - it's missing black) or "White animal with red eyes" (usually 'snow' in reptiles).

Therefore, an Amelanistic IS an "albino". Amel X Albino is a nonsense comparison; it's just that some "missing the pigment melanin" animals have been labelled one or the other traditionally whether there is an actual basis for it. An "albino" royal python is technically amelanistic. An "albino" Kenyan sand boa is amelanistic. An amelanistic corn snake is "albino"... but so is a Snow corn.

There is no separate mutant trait in Kenyan sand boas that is known as "amelanistic" (as compared to the amelanistic-effect trait CALLED "albino"). I prefer to use the actual term describing the specific missing pigment instead of using the generic word that just means "missing pigment/missing black/has red eyes and white skin". 

Paradox Amelanistic (AKA "paradox albino") is a separate trait, however.

What I did when writing up the description is use the correct terms for the morphs you have - describing the missing pigments rather than using generic or incorrectly used pigmentation names. Maybe this is why people have trouble 'translating' how genetics work from one species to the next - they get hung up on the common names?


----------



## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

really, axanthic could be called albino, because there is pigment missing - is that statement correct? Its a bloody minefield! Where do I start in trying to understand it like you do?


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Mujician said:


> really, axanthic could be called albino, because there is pigment missing - is that statement correct? Its a bloody minefield! Where do I start in trying to understand it like you do?


It's absolutely correct. Axanthic is a TYPE of "albino" - there's a missing pigment, and that's one of the meanings of the word "albino". Anerythristic corn snakes are often called "black albinos" for example.

First and foremost, understand the difference between a common name (like "albino" or "sand boa") and a technical term (like "amelanistic" or "_Eryx colubrinus loveridgei_"). One of them gives you some information, but not all of it (and can have multiple different meanings); the other is precise in what you're talking about.

Amelanistic means "missing the black pigment melanin" no matter what species you're talking about - pythons, puppies or peas. If you're talking about an animal with no black pigment anywhere on the body (including the eyes!) it is always technically correct to call it an Amelanistic. 

Understanding the Latin/Greek roots of words will also help.
A and An mean "no" or "lacking"
Hypo means "reduced"
Hyper means "enhanced"
Melanin is black or dark brown pigment.
Erythrin is red pigment.
Xanthin is yellow pigment (although many snakes also have Carotenes - that's what causes the yellow throats in corn snakes as they age.)
And the Latin root of "albino" is "albus" meaning white.
Leucus also means white, and is the root of the word "leucistic".

So if you know that, what is an animal with enhanced yellow colouring going to be described as?
What about something with reduced red pigment?


----------

