# White's tree frogs



## Flyinghigh2392 (May 13, 2017)

Hi Guys, 

Decided with my spare terrarium I would like to create a habitat for some White's tree frogs. My terrarium is a 60(L)x45(W)X45(H), I know it isn't the tallest, but I can make use of the width to help out with arboreal spacing? Let me know. 
I have a 3D polystyrene background already, you know the generic ones that come with the terrariums, and I have a couple of cork barks as well. I will be purchasing a few plants (not real ones, sorry guys not good with keeping plants, will stick to fakes haha), and some branches ect ect. 
My room keeps at around 22oc so I will be purchasing a small heatmat to boost up the temps. 

Can you guys let me know if this size terrarium is ideal, and if so what will be a happy number of whites In this terrarium. 

Thanks guys : victory:


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

Flyinghigh2392 said:


> My terrarium is a 60(L)x45(W)X45(H)


Just to be sure (to be sure); That'd cm's, yeah? So, we're talking aprox. 2' long. By 18" x 18".

I'd put a couple in there. Whites aren't the most dynamic of frogs. They're also known to be pretty easy going with each others company.

I kept mine in a tank of, as I remember, pretty much the same dimensions. Only, upright. Two foot tall. 18" side panels. Fine. And he shared it with a few other, smaller, tree frogs. It was great!

Perhaps concentrate more on the idea of some suitably stout branches, _along_ which they can creep. Soft, spindly stuff's not really the best for such gorgeous lumps of frog, in my view.

Nice back drop. With vertical pockets they can creep up into. Few, mossy branches they can be seen crawling about on. Yeah; I'm quite liking the idea myself! :mrgreen:

_Lighting_ would be my biggest head scratcher. How to work it so ye can observe them, without doing the Charles Bronson on them. Maybe a green or blue light bulb, on an ordinary dimmer switch? I've just dreamed that up as I typed this. I _seriously_ like that idea myself!

Back in my own day, I used a Habistat Dimmer Stat. Fantastic piece of kit! Now? I only have a couple of tanks. Might have to look into a manual dimmer myself! Just something to give that eerie glow, so I could sit and watch my stuff creep about at night. 

Dear god! Now I have this bleeding monkey on my shoulder, whispering; " How about another Pyxicephalus? Ye _really_ loved that one, remember? "

Damn you! Damn this place! Damn!!!


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## Flyinghigh2392 (May 13, 2017)

We are talking about cms yea haha. Definitely going to get some sturdy branches more than likely the java branches and they are sturdy enough. Thinking about cutting slots in the backing, getting some smaller pieces of cork bark and fixing them into the backing to create ledges. 
If I chose a blue night light on a dimmer stat, would that mean, heatmat off during the night so that the temps dont go too high, also UVB? Yay or ney?


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## Flyinghigh2392 (May 13, 2017)

Also would a water bowl or a waterfall feature be better. Thinking maybe a waterfall with running water will be better at keeping the humidity up


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## jimmer7 (Jan 19, 2013)

Hi I keep 2 white trees in a 60x60x45 exo terra with heat mat on side wall and a heat bulb for cold spells, arcadia t5 uv light. A large shallow water dish couple of ground hides and some cork bark branches with a couple of fake plants. I spray them 2 times a day and change there water bowl every day as it full of substrate. They are the funniest things to watch, and most feeding days I got one hanging off a finger.


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

Flyinghigh2392 said:


> If I chose a blue night light on a dimmer stat, would that mean, heatmat off during the night so that the temps dont go too high?


Hmmm. Now, this depends, see? What _I _did is, I had a " Habistat Dimming Thermostat ". 

Just for the record, and benefit of anyone else who'd be interested: You attach light bulbs. Those light up and provide heat. But, as the temp gets to where ye want it? 'Stat feeds the bulb less power. Bulb dims. Use _blue_ bulbs and, soon enough, at night, the effect is the most glorious, eerie, blue glow! It's like there's a full moon! By day? The light doesn't really show. _Not Cheap!_ But, trust me: Get one and you'll wonder what ye were thinking of, not having one!)

Blue bulb on a Dimmer Switch? I'd suggest That would be much more 'hands on'. And only really suitable for _our_ purposes. That's to say; The bulb would have nothing to do with heating the tank. Ye'd need a separate, non light emitting heat source, on a thermostat.

Then, when ye fancied chilling out and observing ye creatures, at night? Ye can sneak their blue bulb on, at the Dimmer. But, only turn it up enough that ye got the desired, eerie blue effect. Won't bother ye creatures. But, you'll be able to watch them behaving naturally.

But, that bulb would be incrementally raising the temperature, see? Hence ye'd need that separate, thermostated heat source, so the stat would tone that down to match the warmth from ye blue bulb. Practically the same results then. Dimmed, blue bulb would barely be visible, in daylight. And either way removes that nasty On / Off Light shock.

Well done. Great thread and pulling in some interesting and useful replies. I'm enjoying the read!


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## Flyinghigh2392 (May 13, 2017)

Thanks for the replys guys I am really enjoying the feedback. 

Ok so heatmat questions. I will be getting a 6x11inch heatmat which will go on the side. The questions are, are the froggies perfectly safe sitting on the same bit of glass as the heatmat? (obviously the heatmat will be outside the tank and on a stat). Shall I get the 7 watt or the 15 watt heatmat. 

Humidity is my problem. I work as a chef 12 hour shifts, I can mist the tank before I leave other than that its gonna wait until I finish work. This is why I was thinking of using a waterfall for both effect and the fact running water and ups Humidity slightly, and a fogger timed for a 10 second spray every 6 hours. 

Let me know x


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

Whole idea, with heat mats, it That ye leave them a space where they're Not in front of it. So, theoretically, your frogs will have plenty of area away from the heat. That's ok then, as far as it goes.

And now; I shall light the blue touch paper ....! Get ready with ye pitch forks and flaming torches, folks .....

I have Never trusted heat mats for any more than a box of crickets. Only time I tried one? the B marinus sitting on it died! Damn thing never got Off it, truth to tell. Just sat there, refusing to move or eat. Shrivelled up and died.

Personally ~ maybe because I'm somewhat of a dinosaur myself? I've only ever been truly happy with fish tank heaters and light bulbs. In your case? A properly regulated bulb, at one end? Job done.

Come to that? Ye'd want a light in there anyway, if ye to see them. Why not kill two birds with one stone?


Misters and waterfalls? Waterfalls were really coming in, just as I was going out. Misters were after my time. Waterfalls are dead simple to set up, nowadays, though. Lovely effect. Aesthetic as well as practical.

My tree frogs got on fine with just a bowl of water in the bottom. I mist sprayed more for the plants than the frogs. Perhaps it helped that I _had _so many, live plants in there? Dunno.

On reflection? I'd go with a nice little water fall







Sort it so that it actually _falls_ ~ drops down to make a gentle sound of water trickling into water, from a height? Get that right and it'd be magical, wouldn't it? Zen!

Anyway ......


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## Flyinghigh2392 (May 13, 2017)

Might get a large waterbowl and a small waterfall. Just don't want to come home and find the wee little froggles shrivelled due to a lack of humidity. 

So you prefer bulbs over heat mats, I can work with that. Will run a daytime and a night time bulb as a heat source on a stat. UVB?? Do they need it? Also for my size tank (60x45x45) what wattage bulbs would you have?

Sorry about all the questions! Just want to make sure everything is right.


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

Flyinghigh2392 said:


> Sorry about all the questions! Just want to make sure everything is right.


*No!* It's exactly _Because_ you, so obviously, want to do things right that I'm talking to ye!


Now; Forgive me. It's fast approaching 01:00. I have a mate talking to me in a chat room (My idea of a pub). And, he's just guided me through fixing this keyboard, which had made writing that last post a physical nightmare!

I've also had my dinner. My ration of Jameson. And now a crafty pint. I'm just about over my peak, for today  I don't want to give out opinions when I'm past my best and distracted.

Ye frogs won't shrivel up though. We'll assure that. _I'm_ about shrivelling up, right now though. So, I'm off to catch a crafty episode of Spooks, before I go horizontal.

Oh! And I may not get back on till tomorrow evening. Got something on tomorrow. Anyway, that'll leave time for anyone else to get a word in edgeways here. 

Catch ye tomorrow


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## jasonm96 (Aug 30, 2015)

Two frogs should be fine in that size tank. Since you're going with fake plants, height won't be wasted with a layered substrate, but taller would be better at one point. Heat mats are rubbish for warming the air temperature, I would use a a low-wattage bulb for a basking area of 85F, this would be more natural.


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## jasonm96 (Aug 30, 2015)

Most frogs should benefit from UVB and reduces the need of vitamin D3 supplementating, which can cause problems if not enough or too much is given, so I would provide a 5% UVB T8


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## Flyinghigh2392 (May 13, 2017)

Thanks for the answers. If I had a taller terrarium then I would probably be adventurous and try my first bioactive set-up. I am thinking about using the exo terra 60cm canopy, as it can fit 3 bulbs so was thinking one 25W day bulb, one 5.0% UVB bulb and a 15W night bulb. I'm assuming being in a canopy means these bulbs cannot be put onto a thermostat, however the low wattage should mean the tank temperatures do not exceed what I need them to anyway. Without any heating my room is around 20-22oc. 

A question about the water bowl, is it better to be large and shallow or large and deep?


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## Flyinghigh2392 (May 13, 2017)

Ok so I have done my shopping list haha and want to make sure that everything is correct before I click the buy button. 

Lighting:

Exo Terra medium Canopy
1x Exo Terra Daytime Heat Lamp T10 25W
1x Exo Terra Reptile UVB100 25W
1x Exo Terro Night time Heat Lamp T10 25W

Substrate:

Zoo med all natural frog moss (top substrate)
ProRep coco bedding fine (I will be tong feeding, so should be little impaction danger)

Other Stuff

Several standing plants, bush plants, trailing plants
Large cork bark flat, and 2x cork bark tubes
Large Java root (big enough to go bottom to top of terrarium)
White Python combi digital thermo-hygrometer
X-large prorep terrarium water bowl
Spray bottle
Calcium powder (No D3)


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## jasonm96 (Aug 30, 2015)

looks good but for lighting i would use an arcadia 15w 5% tube, it's going to cover a lot wider area of light and tubes are generally considered better than compacts. then for basking a zoomed mini deep done with a 25W zoomed daytime heat lamp on a dimming thermostat. lucky reptile do some night leds for nocturnal viewing and you'll be able to see your frogs better than with the heat lamps and they don't need any added heat at night, a drop is better


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## jasonm96 (Aug 30, 2015)

The arcadia tubes are better and produce a more whiter light. Whilst the dome and the round heat lamp will give you more directional heat for basking than a long heat lamp in the canopy


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## Flyinghigh2392 (May 13, 2017)

Thanks for the suggestions. Whilst looking at bulbs and UVB bulbs I can across this Arcadia D3 UV Basking Lamp 80W. It apparently does heat and UVB in one bulb and emits 5.0% UVB. If I had this in a light dome would this be a suitable alternative from different tubes and bulbs. Also this kind of bulb would still run on a dimming thermostat correct?


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## Flyinghigh2392 (May 13, 2017)

There is also a lucky reptile 50W bulb as well, think they are called Mercury Vapor bulbs?


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

I'm back, FH. Good to see someone else has joined the discussion too :thumb:

Just ran my eye over ye shopping list there. First thing that strikes me is that it reads like a marketing managers dream! Exo Terro this. Zoo Med that. What's wrong with a shallow, terracotta flower pot standing dish? Bet it'd be a fraction of the price of some brand named thing with a colourful piece of card attached to it.

" Zoo med all natural frog moss "? What's that? Sphagnum moss? If so I'll send ye some. Got a hundred and fifty yard bank, outside my gate. Smothered in the stuff!

" Coco Bedding ~ Fine ". What's wrong with a small bag of peatless compost, from where ever ye buy gardening supplies. 

Stop and think for a minute; Do ye Really think there's some bloke, in Australia, paid to run about the country, chucking down lorry loads of ProRep coco bedding fine. Then smothering it with Zoo med all natural frog moss, just so the frogs get by?









Day Time Heat Lamps. Night Time Heat Lamps. Know what I used? A bog standard, blue, 60 Watt bulb. Probably cost me 50p Chucked out plenty of heat. Day and night. Dig a thirty bob, plastic, fish tank thermostat on it and it was grand. (Don't think ye even get those 'stats, today. No matter. The modern equivalent are probably better. Still pretty cheap too) 

Listen to Jason, about the UVB. And, Yes! Arcadia? Accept nothing less!


Now, here's another couple of tips, from an old lag: Cork Tiles. I dunno. Nine inches square? Something like that. Wafer thin. Buy them in packs for five or ten. What ever. Great for slapping onto the back glass of ye tank. Bit of bog standard silicone and the job's a good'n.

I always insulated my tanks too. Where ever possible. Sat them on an inch thick slab of polystyrene. Put it on the back (Outside the glass). And on the sides too, where practicable. 

Oh, and; Have you any _idea_ how absolutely bloody Simple it is, to make what ever shape and size of tank your tiny little mind can come up with?









Ye mentioned how ' If ye had a taller terrarium then ye would probably be adventurous .....'? Fine. Okay. Let's Do that, shall we? Ye've started out on the very pretext that this tank ye have is not ye ideal. But, lets muddle though and make the most of a less than best job.

Well, _I_ say; NO! Let's put that bloody inferior tank aside. Open our minds. Dream a little. _Then, Make That Dream Come True!_ 

What ye say? You up for it? Believe me, it's _So_ easy. Week from now, you could have your own, custom built, perfect, right down to ye own finest detail, Whites Tree Frog Heaven.

And ye'd still have that handy, two footer for something else. (Trust me: There _will_ be something else! 8))


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## lozmick (Jun 24, 2013)

I wouldn't use any silicone that ain't aquarium silicone I get mine from eBay 5 tubes inc p+p £14:10.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Lozmick geckos said:


> I wouldn't use any silicone that ain't aquarium silicone I get mine from eBay 5 tubes inc p+p £14:10.


Arcadia John posted his opinion the other day regarding the use of 'plastic' items:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...suitability-ornaments-decor.html#post12816281

Post 2 onwards.


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## jasonm96 (Aug 30, 2015)

Flyinghigh2392 said:


> There is also a lucky reptile 50W bulb as well, think they are called Mercury Vapor bulbs?


 I wouldn't use MVB lamps too hot for your frogs and size of viv, a lot of UVB and can't be thermostatically controlled. I reckon a 25w daylight bulb should do you well and a tube UVB, then night LEDS. Nocturnal heat lamps produce unwanted heat and offer little light for viewing.


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## jasonm96 (Aug 30, 2015)

Probably the best light for viewing would be white LEDS dimmed right down to mimic moonlight as the red or blue light can be a little disturbing, you can only use them for short periods


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

Lozmick geckos said:


> I wouldn't use any silicone that ain't aquarium silicone I get mine from eBay 5 tubes inc p+p £14:10.


Do the same people offer their *Terrarium*Silicone too? I used the bog standard stuff, for years. Tubes and tubes of it. I use it to hold glass together and hold things to glass.

Please explain what you feel is wrong with this. I'd like to learn where I was going wrong. Thankyou.


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

Stephen P said:


> Arcadia John posted his opinion the other day regarding the use of 'plastic' items:


So, in your and Johns opinion; One simply should let 'plastic' near a 'tropical' terrarium ~ in case?

Okay. Well, as John said:



Arcadiajohn said:


> each needs to make up their own mind.


Which I did. Decades ago. And I put it to the test. _Nothing Happened_. See; John, there, is espousing a _Theory_ he's come up with from, presumably, thinking of mundane things on a molecular level.

I didn't read that book. I just Tested my own theory ~ that I wouldn't need " Dow Corning Aquarium Sealant ", at xxx times the price of the stuff I used with non aquatic glass. 

Guess what? See above. I gained first hand, Empirical evidence that John's over thinking things.

But; 'Each needs to make his own mind up.'


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## jimmer7 (Jan 19, 2013)

Can you feed worms to white tree frogs


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## lozmick (Jun 24, 2013)

el Snappo said:


> Do the same people offer their *Terrarium*Silicone too? I used the bog standard stuff, for years. Tubes and tubes of it. I use it to hold glass together and hold things to glass.
> 
> Please explain what you feel is wrong with this. I'd like to learn where I was going wrong. Thankyou.



I used normal silicone to make a background covered with eco earth moss etc etc left the viv for 3 weeks couldn't smell anything at all so thought ha bargain no need for expensive silicone added in one of my favourite cresties 3 days later it was fitting on the floor followed by death I raised that crested gecko from a hatchling with others all kept same condition apart from that one with normal silicone so yeah I will only ever use aquatic silicone


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

Strange. I've made no end of tanks with 'normal' silicone. Kept all sorts in them, for ages. Bred stuff in set ups made entirely from old window glass and bog standard silicone. Fire Salamanders, eg. Adults were kept in such a tank. Watched them mate in it. Larvae grew in it. Never a problem.

Also used it to hold fly screen to the wooden tops of my aquatic tanks. Things like Bombina b & v floating about, inches below it. Never a problem. 

I wonder if Dow Corning would be willing to share the basics of the difference between their " Aquarium " and 'General Purpose' silicones.


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## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

Isn't silicone just silicone? I have always heard that standard silicone cannot be used because it usually contains anti fungals. I don't see why plain 'normal' silicone can't be used providing it doesn't have said anti fungals. 

I wouldn't use anything other than aquarium silicone because the stuff I use is cheap and I trust it based on my positive experiences. Not to say I wouldn't use normal silicone though, I just have no reason to switch brands.

Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

FishForLife2001 said:


> Isn't silicone just silicone? I have always heard that standard silicone cannot be used because it usually contains anti fungals. I don't see why plain 'normal' silicone can't be used providing it doesn't have said anti fungals.


That seems to be the exact thing I'm finding out, right now, Fish.

Stuff I use is bog standard. Stuff I'm using Today is as bog standard as it gets. I had the windows replaced in this place. The firm dropped off the framed windows and a random box full of tubes of silicone. Pretty well brandless, from what I remember.

The fitters fitted the windows and left. I found about a dozen tubes of silicone still in the box! mg: Stuck it in my work room, obviously! Been there years and appears just fine now.

But, yeah, I'm reading more than I'd like, about silicone in _fish tanks_. Consensus does seem to be that the cheap, plain 'Silicone' is the kiddy. It's the specialist ones, for kitchen and bathroom use, etc. that may contain added extras. Fungicides, as ye say.

Could well be That's the risky stuff?


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## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

Write "aquarium" in front of it, maybe then it will be safe 

Nothing better than free stuff, may as well use it.



Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

In all honesty, what I'm getting from the very detailed thread I'm looking at is that the various 'types', Dow and others produce, are more about viscosity and strength.

Some stuff's just not suited to permanent immersion. Some has 'additives' we wouldn't need or like. Some, ye could lift a massive weight by. Some is thicker. Etc. 

The only caveat I've _always_ held by is that; If I want an 18" x 12" x 12" tank, to fill with water and keep Alpine newts in? I'll bloody well go and buy one! For the sake of a score? I'm not messing about with That amount of water.

However; For a little set up with, eg. a land section and a shallow water body at one end? Damn sure I'll silicone a strip of glass across. Want a tall tank, for tree frogs? I silicone old window panes together. Always have done, Always will. 

I'd be looking at the micro environment I then created in there. Not at the glass or silicone.

Used to make display cases, for taxidermy subjects, the same way. Never had one of those drop dead on me either.


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## Flyinghigh2392 (May 13, 2017)

Ok so I decided to attempt a bio active terrarium, and I now have drainage layer, substrate divider and substrate and the heating and lighting has been installed. I need some help in deciding what plants to put in here, there isn't loads of room so typically don't want massive plants. Also still not 100% I could put whites in here just not sure on how much height I have, in comparison to what they need. I have put some photos of the current setup so you can help me decide on what plants to put in and what frogs to put in (I'm steering a little towards milk frogs in whites aren't suitable). 

Also I have a dry run with the heating and it is sitting at 27.2C (bearing in mind its night time but I have the day lights on), and the humidity is 51% (without any spraying or water in the water bowl), so once plants and water are in and its daytime the temperatures and humidity should sit nicely.


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

What's that extremely common, hanging / trailing houseplant. Often with purplish, variegated leaves?

Sort of thing they have on office cupboards and so forth. Wife use to have them. Common as Spider Plants. Can't for the life of me remember the name now.


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## Flyinghigh2392 (May 13, 2017)

There is a plant called Wandering Jew which has purple/silver leaves, but I wouldn't say its super common maybe


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

That's the one! :no1:

God knows where one buys house plants, these days. But, anywhere that sells them should have those. Local fete's or WI stalls would have cuttings in plastic cups.

Only an idea, of course. I was just thinking how they'd trail down and provide cover. Plain green one might suit the eye better, perhaps?


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## Flyinghigh2392 (May 13, 2017)

Well purple is one of my favourite colours haha. 

I will look into them plants thank you!

As to the terrarium itself what frogs would you put in there?


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

What frogs would _I_ put in there? Blimey ..... Well, on the basis that You've set it up like that. So, You must like that lay out? To my mind, it's far more what I _wouldn't_ put in there, frankly. But I'd be satisfied with Whites or Cubans.

It needs 'Big', 'Visible' frogs. Whites, frankly, will pretty much always be a preferred choice against Cubans, for various reasons.

Yep. I'd go for a couple of Whites


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