# Licensing



## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

For those that haven't seen the posts on Facebook the government is proposing to licence anyone who breeds two litters/clutches of vertebrates per year. 

It was meant to apply to dog breeders but by default seems to be applied to all vertebrate animals. If this legislation is successful it will affect most people on here.


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

That is the most absurd thing I've heard of since the DDA!

Espousing Face Ache, I mean :whistling2:

Have ye a link to a vaguely more legitimate source, please? 

Need Gerbil keepers now lay awake at night, in fear of Their standard issues kicking in their doors?


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## dcap (Sep 3, 2011)

colinm said:


> For those that haven't seen the posts on Facebook the government is proposing to licence anyone who breeds two litters/clutches of vertebrates per year.
> 
> It was meant to apply to dog breeders but by default seems to be applied to all vertebrate animals. If this legislation is successful it will affect most people on here.


Please could you provide a (non-facebook) link to this proposal, I assume its something out for public consultation? And I also assume you mean two or more litters/clutches. 

Unfortunately a lot of the animal law appears to be centred on dog keeping/breeding. And snakes/lizards/frogs/rodents aren't dogs.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

I agree, but this is exactly the sort of legislation the animal rights groups want where there is ambiguity and no destinction between the species or animals encompassed within the proposed change. It will be a case of:

Are Dogs vertebrates? Yes = liscence needed.
Are Cats vertebrates? Yes = liscence needed. 
Are Snakes vertebrates? Yes = liscence needed.
Are Rats vertebrates? Yes = liscence needed. 

You can bet your bottom dollar there will be a charge for this liscence if this ever does become law. What would happen if a private keeper was to produce (by mistake - double clutching for example) more than 2 clutches - would they cull the young to nullify the need to get a liscence. 

I would also be looking for clarification on the following: 

Would Zoos be included?
Would a Stud Farm be included?
What about a farmer? 
Are charities such as Guide Dogs for the Blind included? 

All logical questions to ask but until a process of due dilligence has been completed we are unlikely to know the answers.

I have not seen the official proposal. 



dcap said:


> Unfortunately a lot of the animal law appears to be centred on dog keeping/breeding. And snakes/lizards/frogs/rodents aren't dogs.


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## dcap (Sep 3, 2011)

I wouldn't have a problem with the _concept_ of paying a fee to be a licenced breeder. One off annual fee for breeding? Or an annual fee per species? Or a fee per breeding weight female? What if the female doesn't produce a clutch or just makes slugs, do I get a refund or a credit for next year?

EDIT ^^ It would be easier to make an end of year declaration rather than register 'potential breeding numbers'

With all other forms of taxation you get something out of it. Some people might not like it but that is what our society costs:
... Road/Fuel Tax - pays for roads
... Income Tax - pays for government, schools etc.
... NI - pays for the NHS
... Council Tax - pays for the dustbin/recycling collection etc.
... TV Licence - pays for the right to watch live TV or anything from the BBC

What do I get in return for paying for a snake/rodent breeding licence? Would I get listed in a register so that if someone was looking for a Diones or an Arizona Mountain Kingsnake they'd be able to get in touch? How do they protect the register from the antis? Would need to be able to update (removed/add) species. How do I directly benefit from this licence?

Costs would have to be reasonable, if they just turn around and say £10,000 to be a breeder then it'll all go underground. Make it £10 per female and I'd happily carry on selling Trinkets at £40 each. 

I would assume some sliding scale since someone with just 1.3 mice is gonna be making about 30x a month. If they are breeding rodents for food would that be exempt? But if you breed fancy mice to sell to pet shops you'd pay a licence fee?


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## dcap (Sep 3, 2011)

I cannot see anything listed here that refers to breeding:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications?publication_filter_option=open-consultations


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## Colin Farndell (Sep 18, 2007)

"It is not a pet shop licence; it is now a licence for animal sellers"

The exclusion that allows the sale of animals you have bred from animals you own looks to have been removed from all proposals.

Here is a link to the debate earlier this year.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2017-03-30a.479.0 


See the whole debate here

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2017-03-30a.446.0


There should be a lot of other information online but these were the links I saved.


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## dcap (Sep 3, 2011)

Colin Farndell said:


> "It is not a pet shop licence; it is now a licence for animal sellers"
> 
> The exclusion that allows the sale of animals you have bred from animals you own looks to have been removed from all proposals.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the links Colin (F). One of the links has a way to show the whole conversation/debate. And it is some pretty dark reading on animal cruelty too. A lot of UK law is based on protecting people from harm and this is a clear extension of that idea to the treatment of dogs. But the debate is almost entirely about dogs with the occasional bit of info on cats and wildlife. I cannot see any mention in this debate about this being extended further than dog breeding.

Colin (M) - is there more information you have stating that this is being extended to other vertebrates as per your original post? Or was this just a comment on a facebook post from someone outside of the actual debate?


Again, having to be a licenced breeder shouldn't be something an ethical reptile breeder should be concerned about. Unless this is all channelled through the RSPCA - in which case we need to start an education programme for them so that they can understand the basics of reptile care. We know that you cannot sell mammals that haven't weaned (even though I couldn't find the exact reference on gov.uk animal section) but they'll obviously need to factor in how that related to snakes/lizards etc. I've seen a recent ad in the classified of a hatchling snake being offered for sale after ONE feed. I personally don't allow my own hatchlings out until they've had 10 feeds, but I think the common way is 3-5 feeds (I feel that that is inadequate and not yet properly 'established' so I go beyond that).


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

An absolutely ridiculous, authoritarian proposal by idiots without a clue.


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## Inventor (Aug 31, 2007)

With gypsy puppy farms and general puppy farms being on the rise, I can see why a licence would be a good idea. 
The rise in French Bulldogs and designer dogs probably set alarm bells ringing.
We have a traveller site near us. I go past it every day. And every day there's a sign advertising cocker-poo (or some other mish mash of names) puppies for sale. Makes you wonder how many they are breeding and how they are kept, doesn't it?
Then look on fb and see hobby snake keepers posting on there 800th breeding !!!!
Or there baby shed with row after row of rubs. And they are hobbiests!!!


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

I have no issue with licencing of private breeders. I hope that at the same time, a licence system is brought in for "rescue" centres which anyone can set up currently, unregulated, unchecked, and effectively in many cases a scam by taking in animals free of charge to then "rehome" at retail prices. In other words an exploited loophole to pet shop legislation. 
My one concern is how this would be administered, and enforced.

But it does appear that this is aimed at puppy farming rather than "hobby" breeding of exotics.


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## Colin Farndell (Sep 18, 2007)

While they are using the problems and emotive issues surrounding puppy farming to debate the issues they are calling it "a licence for animal sellers" they are not calling it "a licence to sell dogs"

If licence conditions are fair and costs are sensible most people would not object to being licensed to breed their pets but a lot will depend on who controls the licencing as it is not only some members of the RSPCA who consider the act of keeping pets as cruel.

I personally know one shop that had problems on the renewal of their pet shop licence due to keeping a juvenile Plumed Basilisk (Basiliscus plumifrons) with a body size of less than 5 inches in a cage measuring 48 x 24 x 24 inches as the cage was too small. They said they will no longer be selling that species.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Colin Farndell said:


> While they are using the problems and emotive issues surrounding puppy farming to debate the issues they are calling it "a licence for animal sellers" they are not calling it "a licence to sell dogs"
> 
> If licence conditions are fair and costs are sensible most people would not object to being licensed to breed their pets but a lot will depend on who controls the licencing as it is not only some members of the RSPCA who consider the act of keeping pets as cruel.
> 
> I personally know one shop that had problems on the renewal of their pet shop licence due to keeping a juvenile Plumed Basilisk (Basiliscus plumifrons) with a body size of less than 5 inches in a cage measuring 48 x 24 x 24 inches as the cage was too small. They said they will no longer be selling that species.


Of the lengthy speech, nothing stated "breeders of vertebrates". It was about dogs. Which I have to say is in desperate need of legislation. 
Historically, the reptile hobby has often jumped on proposed laws and shouted "woe is me I am hard done by this law will end my hobby". Invasive species being a prime example.
I do not see the proposed legal change affecting anyone other than dog breeders. If you, as I have, have ever had dealings with the black market dog traders, and seen pups having to be euthanased due to parvo virus, you would understand why this is urgently needed. 
In law, any ruling has to be made in the spirit of the what the legislation was intended for. This can be found in Hansard. 
In this case, it is meant for dog breeding.


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## Colin Farndell (Sep 18, 2007)

ian14 said:


> Of the lengthy speech, nothing stated "breeders of vertebrates". It was about dogs. Which I have to say is in desperate need of legislation.
> Historically, the reptile hobby has often jumped on proposed laws and shouted "woe is me I am hard done by this law will end my hobby". Invasive species being a prime example.
> I do not see the proposed legal change affecting anyone other than dog breeders. If you, as I have, have ever had dealings with the black market dog traders, and seen pups having to be euthanased due to parvo virus, you would understand why this is urgently needed.
> In law, any ruling has to be made in the spirit of the what the legislation was intended for. This can be found in Hansard.
> In this case, it is meant for dog breeding.



I do hope you will turn out to be correct.

We already have legislation regarding dog breeding

https://www.gov.uk/dog-breeding-licence-england-scotland-wales

Should they not be talking about enforcing this existing legislation? rather than bringing in new legislation.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Colin Farndell said:


> I do hope you will turn out to be correct.
> 
> We already have legislation regarding dog breeding
> 
> ...


Yes and no. Yes, it should be enforced. But it is not currently enough. 
The fact that the current legislation is not enforced properly just reinforces my point though. If the UK cannot enforce the current laws, how can it be expected to enforce a more rigorous piece of law??


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## Colin Farndell (Sep 18, 2007)

ian14 said:


> Yes and no. Yes, it should be enforced. But it is not currently enough.
> The fact that the current legislation is not enforced properly just reinforces my point though. If the UK cannot enforce the current laws, how can it be expected to enforce a more rigorous piece of law??


That is the problem. If the legislation is not applied fairly and evenly to all applicants then the problem will just get worse and while that is likely to drive some underground it is also to be expected that some will be made examples of by the powers that be in all likely hood for just continuing to do what is currently considered legal if not moral. I consider education to be preferable rather than making some people criminals.


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## dcap (Sep 3, 2011)

I'm lucky not to have had any exposure to dog breeding, the reading of that debate sounds like a pretty terrible situation - but of course, that is the worse case examples being used. There are probably plenty of ethical dog breeders with good conditions welcoming some form of change so that their higher standards can continue.

It would be extremely impractical to extend this to other 'vertebrates' without the government first getting an idea for how many there are out there. Simply because they don't know how they need to resource this. 
And I doubt they have the data. The OP hasn't provided any update to who is looking to extend this from dog breeding to other vertebrates.

Licencing would be one way for the government to get an idea for how many animal breeders there are, perhaps as a voluntary thing for a few years in the first instance. But again, as I mentioned with every other form of taxation (if this is view as a tax) you get something for your money. That could be something as simple as 'the right to breed' or it could be a voting voice in any proposed changes to animal laws. 

Would it be a licence to 'sell' or a licence to 'breed'. Would that impact someone who breeds fish to feed to their turtles? Or someone who breeds rats to feed to their non-breeding snakes? Both of these examples wouldn't be selling what they produce but just making their own food.

Reptile keeping (and breeding) is so very different to cats and dogs that they can't just copy/paste the word dog and replace with 'vertebrates' they'd need a proper understanding of weaned and a proper understanding of enclosure requirements (heck, not even experienced reptile keepers can agree on temperatures or UV requirements so a dog charity couldn't even attempt to offer guidance or enforcement). 

It is a shame that the reptile organisations are so focused on frogs and habitat loss (important issues) and promote and publish so little on captive kept snakes and lizards.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Defra.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

colinm said:


> Defra.


Meaning??

Let's not get carried away here.
According to previous FBH campaigns DEFRA were instrumental in banning reptile keeping via invasive species legislation. This amounted to two herptile species being listed, the American bullfrog, and the red eared slider, both already banned from import before the new legislation. 

Let's keep this in perspective. 

This has stemmed from a point raised back in March. The question posed by the Mp clearly and unequivocally refers to dog breeding and animal rescue centres.

Historically we have seen "end is nigh" claims that have always, as predicted, been no more than rumour and fiction. This is no different.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

DEFFRA and therefore the government. 

Perspective ? If it's no more than two more clutches that would include most people on here. 

There is a second and third list of proposed list of Invasive Species, being implemented this year. Whether they will now in the UK with Brexit is unclear. There are more herps there's on these lists.. I would remind you that the original list is greater than twenty species. No one could have predicted Brexit when the original legislation was proposed.

You are the one who is happy to post that anyone on here advertising Sliders for rehoming is breaking the law. Do you have any solutions for that ? No because there aren't any. Licensed rescue centres , of which there aren't any can take themThe only legal alternative is euthanasia . Are you proposing that ?


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## dcap (Sep 3, 2011)

colinm said:


> Defra.


I still don't see any mention of this
https://www.gov.uk/government/latest?departments[]=department-for-environment-food-rural-affairs
(link at the bottom right to get to the next pages of topics, I went back as far as 01-April)


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## dcap (Sep 3, 2011)

ian14 said:


> Meaning??
> 
> Let's not get carried away here.
> According to previous FBH campaigns DEFRA were instrumental in banning reptile keeping via invasive species legislation. This amounted to two herptile species being listed, the American bullfrog, and the red eared slider, both already banned from import before the new legislation.
> ...


Yep, and I would expect that the officials discussing this would need considerable more information before knee-jerk extending this dog legislation to other animals. The government just don't act like that (even the people who fear or don't understand what government's function is should be able to see that). 

The Red Eared Slider being a good example of how the law wasn't thoroughly thought out and loops closed, they will have learnt from this and it will be brought up as how not to do something in the future.

If animal rescue centres were overrun with Corns and Royals then they would surely be put on the agenda and a new conversation would happen. 

Pet Shops themselves have acted in the past with the Green Iguana and most of them won't stock them. And a good few Pet Shops are now only keeping morph Bearded Dragons to avoid them becoming the next Green Iguana. And a lot of Pet Shops also won't stock Retics/Burms/Anacondas.


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## Colin Farndell (Sep 18, 2007)

dcap said:


> I'm lucky not to have had any exposure to dog breeding, the reading of that debate sounds like a pretty terrible situation - but of course, that is the worse case examples being used. There are probably plenty of ethical dog breeders with good conditions welcoming some form of change so that their higher standards can continue.



I suspect that the ethical breeders have already applied under https://www.gov.uk/dog-breeding-licence-england-scotland-wales and that it is the unlicenced breeders that are being discussed and that are the reason this new legislation is being proposed.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

About time there was some regulation of all animal breeders. Also about time the tax authorities took some action to take a slice of this income and help pay for the NHS and all other government spending.


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