# Genetics of ratsnake hybrid morphs



## intravenous

After reading a controversial thread in the classifieds section my understanding of something has become a little muddled. For those who know what thread I am talking about I AM NOT wanting to stir things up with that seller or talk about that specific animal. I want to know the answer to this question in general so please keep replies on topic :smile:.

So...am I right in thinking that the amel/albino genes between corns and rats are generally incompatible? Eg. if you breed an albino rat to an amel corn you would get a "normal" hybrid het amel and albino? If this is not the case can someone give me an example of cross species genes that are compatible?


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## Ssthisto

Amelanistic in corns is not allelic to Amelanistic in Obsoleta ratsnakes or Emoryi ratsnakes, and you would expect in a FIRST generation cross to get normals-het-both-traits.

However, there's some indication that "ultra" in corns (and grey rat snakes, making "white oak" rats) is very similar to the "Peanut Butter" hypo mutation in Florida kings - they're both allelic to the amelanistic mutation for that species.

I don't know if anyone's ever bred a Peanut Butter Hypo king to an Amelanistic corn, though, to find out if you get "Ultrajungles".

Albino in California kings is allelic to Amelanistic in corns - breed an albino Cali to a snow corn, you'll get albino offspring.


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## intravenous

Ssthisto said:


> Amelanistic in corns is not allelic to Amelanistic in Obsoleta ratsnakes or Emoryi ratsnakes, and you would expect in a FIRST generation cross to get normals-het-both-traits.


Thanks  thats what I wanted to confirm. So basically if you breed a "ratsnake" to an amel corn and get amel offspring then it is definitely not a pure rat and is basically just a second generation (at least) corn x rat cross?



> However, there's some indication that "ultra" in corns (and grey rat snakes, making "white oak" rats) is very similar to the "Peanut Butter" hypo mutation in Florida kings - they're both allelic to the amelanistic mutation for that species.
> 
> I don't know if anyone's ever bred a Peanut Butter Hypo king to an Amelanistic corn, though, to find out if you get "Ultrajungles".
> 
> Albino in California kings is allelic to Amelanistic in corns - breed an albino Cali to a snow corn, you'll get albino offspring.


Interesting that the kingsnakes are allelic and the rats are not. I guess it just depends on where the albino mutation has occured in the melanin pathway in the various species and perhaps we will still find albino ratsnake mutations that are allelic to the cornsnake amel mutation.


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## peaches

I'm not sure though, I know of a visual albino that is a result of creamsicle (corn x great plains) x albino everglades.

Will have to try and find me notes though!!


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## intravenous

peaches said:


> I'm not sure though, I know of a visual albino that is a result of creamsicle (corn x great plains) x albino everglades.
> 
> Will have to try and find me notes though!!


Strange, it would be interesting to know the history on that if you can find it .


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## Windy

> Ssthisto wrote:
> However, there's some indication that "ultra" in corns (and grey rat snakes, making "white oak" rats)


I believe White Oak phase is a Florida Panhandle locality name for Grey Rats and not a 'morph' !



> intravenous Wrote:
> If this is not the case can someone give me an example of cross species genes that are compatible?


Heres a few that I've heard of

San Diego Gophers Amel is compatible with the Amelanistic gene in Corns.
Anerythristic gene in Hondurans is compatible with the Anerthristic gene in Cornsnakes.
Hypomelanistic gene in Pueblans is compatible with the original Hypomelanistic (Type A) in Cornsnakes
Amelanistic (Albino) Sinaloan Kings are compatible with the Amelanistic gene in Cornsnakes
Amelanistic (Albino) Cali Kings are compatible with the Amelanistic gene in Cornsnakes
Havn't heard of any F1 Ratsnake x Corn Albino's though.

And I'm guessing that it was the Bubblegum Ratsnake that has you confused ?


Bubblegum Ratsnakes History
In the early nineties Bill Love introduced albinism from the albino Yellow Ratsnake into his line of Everglades Ratsnakes, and then bred those to his Albino Black Ratsnake. This combination is what he called "Bubblegum" Ratsnake!

Today Bubblegum Ratsnake can mean any Albino 'obsoletus mix' hybrid/intergrade. Not to be confused with Bubblegum Snows which are a selectively bred Snow Corn for pink colouration and nothing to do with the 'Bubblegum Ratsnakes' except for sharing the same cultivar name !


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## intravenous

Windy said:


> I believe White Oak phase is a Florida Panhandle locality name for Grey Rats and not a 'morph' !
> 
> Heres a few that I've heard of
> 
> San Diego Gophers Amel is compatible with the Amelanistic gene in Corns.
> Anerythristic gene in Hondurans is compatible with the Anerthristic gene in Cornsnakes.
> Hypomelanistic gene in Pueblans is compatible with the original Hypomelanistic (Type A) in Cornsnakes
> Amelanistic (Albino) Sinaloan Kings are compatible with the Amelanistic gene in Cornsnakes
> Amelanistic (Albino) Cali Kings are compatible with the Amelanistic gene in Cornsnakes
> Havn't heard of any F1 Ratsnake x Corn Albino's though.
> 
> And I'm guessing that it was the Bubblegum Ratsnake that has you confused ?
> 
> 
> Bubblegum Ratsnakes History
> In the early nineties Bill Love introduced albinism from the albino Yellow Ratsnake into his line of Everglades Ratsnakes, and then bred those to his Albino Black Ratsnake. This combination is what he called "Bubblegum" Ratsnake!
> 
> Today Bubblegum Ratsnake can mean any Albino 'obsoletus mix' hybrid/intergrade. Not to be confused with Bubblegum Snows which are a selectively bred Snow Corn for pink colouration and nothing to do with the 'Bubblegum Ratsnakes' except for sharing the same cultivar name !


Yes, it was that specific snake for sale that confused me because that particular snake was bred to an amel corn and produced amels which I didn't think was possible as an F1 in a corn x rat breeding. Its interesting to know that history though .


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## Windy

Heres one example how a cornsake can produce albinos from a ratsnake hybrid cross

Parent Snake = amel corn x amel blackratsnake (Some times wrongly refered to as Bubblegum Ratsnakes I just learnt Grrrr)
Parent Snake - Amel Corn

F1's would be dbl het for Corn Amelanism & Black Ratsnake Albinism

Breed them back together

9/16 75% Corn x 25% Black Ratsnake Hybrids Wild Type
3/6 75% Corn x 25% Black Ratsnake Hybrids homozygous Corn Amelanism
3/16 75% Corn x 25% Black Ratsnake Hybrids homozygous Black Ratsnake Amelanism
1/6 75% Corn x 25% Black Ratsnake Hybrids Double homozygous Corn Amelanism & Black Ratsnake Amelanism

Only one copy of the Black Ratsnake Amelanism can be passed to any of the young by the parents, resulting in 75% Corn x 25% Black Ratsnake Hybrids het for Black Ratsnake Albinism. The Amels in that clutch will be 75% Corn x 25% Black Ratsnake Hybrids homozygous for Cornsnake Amelanism because both parents carry a copy of the cornsnake amel gene.

... yikes confusing or what :lol2: as you can see from that if you took two clutch mates and bred them together you could also end up with a whole clutch of Wild Type corns:eek4:


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## intravenous

Windy said:


> Heres one example how a cornsake can produce albinos from a ratsnake hybrid cross
> 
> Parent Snake = amel corn x amel blackratsnake (Some times wrongly refered to as Bubblegum Ratsnakes I just learnt Grrrr)
> Parent Snake - Amel Corn
> 
> F1's would be dbl het for Corn Amelanism & Black Ratsnake Albinism
> 
> Breed them back together
> 
> 9/16 75% Corn x 25% Black Ratsnake Hybrids Wild Type
> 3/6 75% Corn x 25% Black Ratsnake Hybrids homozygous Corn Amelanism
> 3/16 75% Corn x 25% Black Ratsnake Hybrids homozygous Black Ratsnake Amelanism
> 1/6 75% Corn x 25% Black Ratsnake Hybrids Double homozygous Corn Amelanism & Black Ratsnake Amelanism
> 
> Only one copy of the Black Ratsnake Amelanism can be passed to any of the young by the parents, resulting in 75% Corn x 25% Black Ratsnake Hybrids het for Black Ratsnake Albinism. The Amels in that clutch will be 75% Corn x 25% Black Ratsnake Hybrids homozygous for Cornsnake Amelanism because both parents carry a copy of the cornsnake amel gene.
> 
> ... yikes confusing or what :lol2: as you can see from that if you took two clutch mates and bred them together you could also end up with a whole clutch of Wild Type corns:eek4:


Sorry, I meant exclusively in the F1 when both parents are pure .


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## Ssthisto

Well, since a "Bubblegum" ratsnake isn't a pure anything to begin with, you're already talking about "not an F1". 

The animal in question has a very interesting head marking, mind you... VERY cornsnake marking - but the nose is the same sort of Mallard-train snout you'd expect on an Everglades Ratsnake.

If I had to make a guess, it sure is a Bubblegum rat - probably about half to three-quarters _Obsoleta_ rat and one-quarter to half _Guttata_ rat... and the _Guttata_ is why it produced at least some amelanistic offspring when bred to an amelanistic corn.


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## paulh

intravenous said:


> So...am I right in thinking that the amel/albino genes between corns and rats are generally incompatible? Eg. if you breed an albino rat to an amel corn you would get a "normal" hybrid het amel and albino? If this is not the case can someone give me an example of cross species genes that are compatible?


There are two albino mutant genes in black rat snakes. One is allelic to amelanistic in corn snakes, and the other is not. So if you pick the right mutant, crossing an albino black rat to an amelanistic corn gives all albino babies in the first generation. Crossing an amelanistic corn to the other black rat albino gives double het babies with melanin pigment.


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## intravenous

Ssthisto said:


> Well, since a "Bubblegum" ratsnake isn't a pure anything to begin with, you're already talking about "not an F1".
> 
> The animal in question has a very interesting head marking, mind you... VERY cornsnake marking - but the nose is the same sort of Mallard-train snout you'd expect on an Everglades Ratsnake.
> 
> If I had to make a guess, it sure is a Bubblegum rat - probably about half to three-quarters _Obsoleta_ rat and one-quarter to half _Guttata_ rat... and the _Guttata_ is why it produced at least some amelanistic offspring when bred to an amelanistic corn.


Sorry :sad: I'm obviously not being very coherant. For that particular snake I thought the seller was making it out that it was some sort of rare, unknown rat snake and if that was the case then the amel babies would have been F1 which I didn't think was possible. Then one of the above posters explained that a bubblegum ratsnake was any obsoletus hybrid rather than a "pure" ratsnake but for the purposes of this I was considering it to be "pure ratsnake" in the sense that it had not yet been contaminated with corn lineage and so it was a parental generation and the F1's occured once it had been bred with a corn. Sorry  maybe thats my logic just being faulty.



paulh said:


> There are two albino mutant genes in black rat snakes. One is allelic to amelanistic in corn snakes, and the other is not. So if you pick the right mutant, crossing an albino black rat to an amelanistic corn gives all albino babies in the first generation. Crossing an amelanistic corn to the other black rat albino gives double het babies with melanin pigment.


Ah, so it can be done in the F1 between an ABR and an amel corn then? Fair enough . Where do you learn this sort of stuff may I ask? It doesn't seem to be that well documented.


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## Windy

paulh said:


> There are two albino mutant genes in black rat snakes. One is allelic to amelanistic in corn snakes, and the other is not. So if you pick the right mutant, crossing an albino black rat to an amelanistic corn gives all albino babies in the first generation. Crossing an amelanistic corn to the other black rat albino gives double het babies with melanin pigment.


:2thumb: thanks Paul ... would that be the T+ Albino thats allelic ?

Sue x


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## paulh

It's the T-negative albino that's allelic with the corn's amelanistic.

Most of what I know about black rat snake mutants came from this publication:

Genetics of color mutations in the snake, Elaphe obsoleta -- Bechtel and Bechtel 76 (1): 7 -- Journal of Heredity


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