# Descenting



## Mandy658 (Apr 3, 2007)

Hi i have noticed a lot of you saying that descenting is now illegal and i was just wondering if anyone could link me to a site that explains a bit more, the thing is i have put a deposit down on one of next years baby skunks from Jungletalk i was told when i put the deposit down that it will be descented, after seeing that a few people on the forum had said it was now illegal i contacted Seb as my husband and landlord won't allow me to have one if it can spray and he didn't seem to know about this new law.


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

Descenting is being outlawed as part of the seocndary legislation attached to the new Animal Welfare Act.

The secondary legislation is outlined here: Defra, UK - Animal Health and Welfare - Animal Welfare - Animal Welfare Act

Consultation is currently underway and I am told there is still the possibility that something can be done about it. Descenting is currently being considered as a "mutilation". Unfortunately DEFRAs current section on mutilations only really details tail docking.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

i did wonder how he was managing with it..

at this rate, seb will be our first test case!

basically, under the new AWA, sub sections 4 and 5.. invasive surgery to the soft tissue for no good medical reason, is now classed as mutilation and as such carries a penalty of a fine and possible jail sentance. interstingly, given other topics at teh moment, this would also cover de-venoming hot snakes.. not that there are any done over in the uk i believe, i am told they are done in the USA and russia.. anyway..

notes for AWA

sub section 4

the 1911 act makes it an offence to cause unecessary suffering to any doemstic or captive animal, with limited exceptions including suffering caused under the Animals (Scientific prcedures) Act 1986

sub 5 notes
prohibits the mutilation (referred to as a PP) of any protected animal unless the precedure has been exepmted ffrom the general prohibition by regulations made under sub sec 4

the expression "protected animal" is defined in sec 2

de-scenting has been disallowed by the RCVS for a good few years now. interestingly the lady who passed that regulation, left just after passing it, for her new role.. she is now with the RSPCA..:whistling2: does make you wonder sometimes eh.

Tell seb to give me or rory a call Mandy, if he would like? and that unfortunatley no, we are not joking, and yes, we do need to do something about it and something good..

N


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

PendleHog said:


> Descenting is being outlawed as part of the seocndary legislation attached to the new Animal Welfare Act.
> 
> The secondary legislation is outlined here: Defra, UK - Animal Health and Welfare - Animal Welfare - Animal Welfare Act
> 
> Consultation is currently underway and I am told there is still the possibility that something can be done about it. Descenting is currently being considered as a "mutilation". Unfortunately DEFRAs current section on mutilations only really details tail docking.


yes, i am told it is currently secondary, rather than primary, legistlation, and as such is still challengable..

N


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

do you not think its crul to descent a skunk after all its crul to do it to a ferret they have these scent glands for a reason and if its a hand reared skunck then surely it would not spray i hate haw people mess with nature why put an animal under the stress and maybe even it could die under the anisthetic just so you can keep one same as docking dogs and cropping ears also hot snakes they where born with the venom so why mess with it just for your pleaser


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

adamntitch said:


> do you not think its crul to descent a skunk after all its crul to do it to a ferret they have these scent glands for a reason and if its a hand reared skunck then surely it would not spray i hate haw people mess with nature why put an animal under the stress and maybe even it could die under the anisthetic just so you can keep one same as docking dogs and cropping ears also hot snakes they where born with the venom so why mess with it just for your pleaser


It is no different to (and in fact is less invasive than) spaying a cat or dog.

I do not believe it is cruel for a VET to descent a skunk or a ferret - I had descented ferrets when I lived in New Mexico, and I can tell you now they didn't know anything was different. The only difference is that the animals had a home because they weren't going to musk at people...

Some vets won't work on unaltered ferrets/skunks.
A female skunk that is not going to be bred from MUST be spayed.
If a vet won't spay an entire female skunk, isn't it MORE cruel to condemn that female skunk to a slow death by anemia?
Or to breed more baby skunks that vets won't treat?


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

adamntitch said:


> if its a hand reared skunck then surely it would not spray


No, personally I would find it more cruel to remove an animal from its mother in order to hand raise it purely so it would not spray in my house adamandtitch.

Not descenting a skunk can cause welfare issues of their own in fact.. my boy broke his leg at about 3 months old, if he had been "fully firing" I know for a fact my vet would not have seen him as an emergency case (she would have needed time to prepare an area outside of the surgery for consultation). THAT is a welfare issue.

I find it difficult to understand why people object to what should be a very quick, painless, easy to perform procedure when they are more than happy so send their bitches off for very invasive surgery (ie spaying) quite routinely.

However this is not a debate on the ethics of descenting, but a question on the law as it stands.


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## derbyleighton (Sep 10, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> It is no different to (and in fact is less invasive than) spaying a cat or dog.
> 
> I do not believe it is cruel for a VET to descent a skunk or a ferret - I had descented ferrets when I lived in New Mexico, and I can tell you now they didn't know anything was different. The only difference is that the animals had a home because they weren't going to musk at people...
> 
> ...


totally agree


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

do i think its cruel?

no

why would you say it IS ?

the animal is not affected by the procdure, when done correctly, and suffers no knock on effects from the operation.. the anasthetic used is very light, and the operation takes less time than it does to castrate a cat.

how, therefore, is it "cruel" to do it?

the scent glands are there for a reason, this reason is defence. a captive skunk should have its owner to defend it, it will never need to rely on its scent to save its life.

skunks however can leak a little when they are excited, or using the litter tray. the spray can cause medical problems for other pets or humans it comes into contact with.

skunks are rarely hand reared, its very very hard to do this sucessfully, they are parent reared, normally within the owners home. yes this does "bomb proof" them to some extent, but as any animal owner will tell you, this does not mean they are 100% steady. a suprised skunk could still blind your pet dog temporarily, if he got a fright one day.

i don't see it as being cruel to do it to a ferret either.. more pointless tbh, as a descented ferret still smells pretty ripe. a descented skunk, does not!

cruel? no

no more cruel than people who keep cats locked indoors all day, and still feel the need to neuter or castrate them..

no more cruel than people who keep a pet male rat, and get it castrated

no more cruel than people who keep a house rabbit, and get is spayed//

no more cruel than people who have a pet dog and pay to have its reproductive organs removed under life threatening anasthetic..

N


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Mandy658 said:


> Hi i have noticed a lot of you saying that descenting is now illegal and i was just wondering if anyone could link me to a site that explains a bit more, the thing is i have put a deposit down on one of next years baby skunks from Jungletalk i was told when i put the deposit down that it will be descented, after seeing that a few people on the forum had said it was now illegal i contacted Seb as my husband and landlord won't allow me to have one if it can spray and he didn't seem to know about this new law.


Seb of Jungletalk did not know???????????

Really, mm that is interesting as a skunk keeper, breeder, seller.

Rory Matier


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

tbh i cannot beleive he does not know rory..

its not like its been kept quiet is it..

N


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

You are quite right Nerys, how could he not know?

Working with the mobile education business like he does?

Makes you wonder doesn't it?

R

ps: More importantly tho, is if he does not think it is illegal, therefore the vet he uses, does not know either, and that means he can sell descented skunks legally, wow!


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## Mandy658 (Apr 3, 2007)

Well this is the e-mail he sent me after i asked him:-
"
Hi Mandy
 Not that I have heard. It is true that the vast majority of Vets in this Country will not descent Skunks, but it is not illegal.
 It is a bit of a hot potato, like tail docking, and of course the new Animal Welfare Bill has been passed to protect animal welfare. It is a very complex bit of legislation and like all new Acts, it will take years of testing in the Courts to find out how it will work. As there are only a few hundred Skunks in the UK, I think that it is highly unlikely that the Government will waste time on any further legislation as regards them, as the new Animal Welfare Bill has taken years of consultation and much parliamentary time, to get on the statute book.
As it is a controversial issue for some folk, we never mention descenting in public. The fact is, that Skunks only discharge their glands if they are in grave danger. In the wild ,if you attack them, or try to catch them, set dogs or other animals on them, or run them  over, they will first hiss a warning, then stamp their feet, and only as a last resort fire off. It is often said that Skunks do not like the smell either.!! In fact, it is not that unpleasant , smelling like very, very strong, garlic and onion . Very young babies in the nest, often scent. Like the smell of ferrets, you quickly get used to it. They are only descented, as it is very easy to do when they are very young, and as old animals they might leak the scent.
 Why it is so effective in defense, is that the fluid temporarily burns and blinds, giving the Skunk plenty of time to waddle off.
We have a Skunk from the wild (All pet Skunks are descended from fur farm stock, first captured in the 1920s ).  He somehow climbed aboard a plane in Toronto, and walked off in this Country at Gatwick Airport. He was of course impounded by Customs, and after quarantine, passed to us.
 He is fully scented and not tame; however he has never fired at us when cleaning his pen, although he sometimes stamps his feet, if he feels threatened."

Also this sounds really weird but does it include Northern Ireland as i know some laws don't! Or even down in Southern Ireland?


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> Some vets won't work on unaltered ferrets/skunks.
> A female skunk that is not going to be bred from MUST be spayed.
> If a vet won't spay an entire female skunk, *isn't it MORE cruel to condemn that female skunk to a slow death by anemia?*
> Or to breed more baby skunks that vets won't treat?


Could'nt agree more Ssthisto.

It actually faces people with a dificult catch 22 situation.

If you descent your young, you are facing prosecution under section 5 of the AWA which covers mutilations.

If you do not, and the subsequesntly can't seek veterinarian attention for them, you face prosecution under section 4 which covers unnecessary suffering. Witholding medical attention is classed as cruel but how do you seek it when no vet will deal with a whole skunk?

Mandy - you would be best to speak to Nerys and Rory as to whether the bill affects you in Ireland - I can't say either way really. I would imagine that it covers the whole of the UK but it may be that Ireland has a different lgislative procedure fromt hier own goverment??


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Mandy658 said:


> Well this is the e-mail he sent me after i asked him:-
> "
> Hi Mandy
> Not that I have heard. It is true that the vast majority of Vets in this Country will not descent Skunks, but it is not illegal.
> ...


 
Well Crikey Seb, 

I shall use you as the go ahead then eh?

R


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*blinks a bit*

well, thats cool.. i do know people who have been prosecuted under the AWA this year, for cage sizes.. so the uk law IS already prosecuting people under the AWA.. but no

thats cool

if seb can do it, and all that..

he will certainly make an interesting test case, if it comes to it..

*takes a screen shot of that post*

N



Mandy658 said:


> Well this is the e-mail he sent me after i asked him:-
> "
> Hi Mandy
> Not that I have heard. It is true that the vast majority of Vets in this Country will not descent Skunks, but it is not illegal.
> ...


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

Mandy - the AWA only applies in England and Wales at the moment, so you should theoretically be able to have a skunk descented in NI. However vets have been told by the RCVS not to do so for many years, so finding a willing vet would be difficult.

Of course Seb is in England, so either way he would be open to prosecution, it doesnt matter where the skunk is going but where it was descented.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Test Case, 

Oh indeed, 

I will be writing to Mr Miller about this myself, lol.

How naive can one be.

Worse, tell you what Jungle Talk carry on like this and then make it impossible for anyone else to overturn it at all.

Good Lord man!!

R

I remember two years go or so he did actually show the whole procedure on his website...? But that is now gone oddly, so if it is not wrong why is still not there?


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

> Of course Seb is in England, so either way he would be open to prosecution


if i am reading that email the way i THINK i am reading that email.. seb is saying he won't get done hannah.. regardless of where it was done

he says:

 Not that I have heard. It is true that the vast majority of Vets in this Country will not descent Skunks, but it is not illegal.


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

Nerys said:


> if i am reading that email the way i THINK i am reading that email.. seb is saying he won't get done hannah.. regardless of where it was done
> 
> N


Oh well.. thats alright then :crazy:


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

*giggles at han*


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

If Seb does go ahead, I am presuminghe will descent them himself? with him saying there isn't a vet that will descent?


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

There are probably plenty of vets that are unaware that they shouldnt do it and will still perform the procedure to be honest.. the last vet I took Einstein to had no idea descenting was even frowned upon by the RCVS (maybe I shouldnt have told her eh?)​


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I know one vet who, when asked about skunks said they were happy to treat and didn't even ask about whether the skunk was whole or not. 

I wonder how many vets out there are unaware of the changes?


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

Plenty I would think..


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

sorry if i sounded abit off when i posted but you cant compare it to spaying animals thats done to stop them breeding and everyone has there own thoughts to me tho if an animal was born with it then its there for a reason so why bother messing with it at the end of the day yeh as people say it can blind animals and what ever but may that means they need more specil homes than just every normal home


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Plenty of people spay animals that are kept as house pets.. therefore theres no chance of them breeding? so you could argue and ask why they bother to risk putting hte animal under a ful general anasthetic for something that isn't needed.

whilst you're opening that kettle of fish you could also ask if its fair on us to spay/neuter/castrate animals at all..and whether they should be left to their own devices.

Descenting is done under a light anesthetic so I see no problems.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

haha

yeah come off it adam!!!

so someone who keeps a bloody rabbit in a 9th floor flat, has its nuts chopped of to stop it breeding??

breeding with what??? :rotfl:

come off it!

yes skunks do need special homes.. because they are special animals



N






adamntitch said:


> sorry if i sounded abit off when i posted but you cant compare it to spaying animals thats done to stop them breeding and everyone has there own thoughts to me tho if an animal was born with it then its there for a reason so why bother messing with it at the end of the day yeh as people say it can blind animals and what ever but may that means they need more specil homes than just every normal home


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

adamntitch said:


> sorry if i sounded abit off when i posted but you cant compare it to spaying animals thats done to stop them breeding


It's easy enough to keep your animal from breeding WITHOUT doing major abdominal surgery, though - keep your animal under control and don't LET it get mated. There are even mismate jabs if it does mate and you didn't stop it from happening.

I'm not saying I'm anti spay and neuter - there are other legitimate reasons to do it - but I'm saying that, as far as the animal is concerned, one surgery is the same as another, and a spay is more invasive and more uncomfortable than most.


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

Precisely.. I see no problems when done by an experienced vet, its "backstreet cutters" that bother me. This is my biggest concern with the new legislation, not whether or not i personally can keep a skunk in the house. I have already said I would keep a scented skunk providing it had been brought up in a household environment. I have also now found a vet that currently treats 2 scented skunks in addition to my boy.
The thing is.. will de scenting stop because it is no longer legal? Nope, it'll just go underground.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

underground, it already is

how about the guy in the midlands who does the op with a bowl of cold water and the end of a teaspoon??

N


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

Perhaps it may be good manners not to discuss other people details on an open forum Nerys. You have fallen foul of this before.


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

done a serch on the net and they commenly get anal invections after descenting and if it was not crul why would defra want to ban it


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

Fixx said:


> Perhaps it may be good manners not to discuss other people details on an open forum Nerys. You have fallen foul of this before.


only with you fixx! only with you!

and yes, i know you don't like me right now. never mind eh.

tbh, what i do and don't post is irrelevant, i can't do anything about it.. why would it matter if i said that or not.. surely seb has nothing to hide.. right?

N


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

defra don't want to ban it specifically.. there is nothing mentioning it by name in the AWA

and yes, they can get anal INFECTIONS after it, but generally only when done by back door surgeons doing it "underground" they do not get them COMMONLY tho

which is why we think they should allow a vet to do it. it would be safer for the animals then



adamntitch said:


> done a serch on the net and they commenly get anal invections after descenting and if it was not crul why would defra want to ban it


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

ok was only having my say but as animal lovers you should still see its not good to mess with nature


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

out of interest.. what do you keep adam ?

N


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

only rats and quails now lol well and a garter dogs and cats as am into breeding quails in a big way but descenting a skunk cause it can spray then why not cut off a porcupines quiles so it cant spike you


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

we have a porcupine too.. she lives in a large indoor/outdoor pen, not as a house pet, so we would not need to de-quill her..

also... porcupines re-grow their quills  it would make little odds to them if they were cut off, they would just regrow them 

i've been quilled by wilma, its not as bad as all that really..

N


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

well then if you dont do it to a porcupine asthats there defence then why do it to a skunk is there any other reason apart from the spraying


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

umm.. no!

the only reason skunks are descented is to ensure there is no danger to other household pets from their spray, and to ensure there is no danger to humans from their spray

tell me, why do people castrate rabbits who are kept alone and never meet another rabbit in their lives

why do people castrate rats, so they can live with female and not have babies.. when we all know two male rats get along just as well as a pair.. a rat needs company yes, but its as happy with a same sex cage mate as friend.

why do people live in flats in chelsea with persian cats.. who never go beyond the front door.. yet still they remove their wombs? why?

are your cats and dogs spayed or neutered?

if you have a bitch and she is not spayed, is that becasue you cannot control her environment when she is in season? or does it just make it easier for you to deal with?

wilma is not kept as a house hold pet, so they are not at risk from her.

skunks are descented to make them better pets. cats/dogs/rabbits/rats/g-pigs and countless other small furries are ALSO operated on them to make them better pets.

skunks get glands removed, others get the reproductive system taken out, and all the hormone inbalence that creates.. and yet we think that is OK as it "stops them breeding"

is that not messing with nature in itself adam? 

N


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

and i thought we were bad!!


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

no body sees my point so al leave it no point carrying on saying what i beleve but i will say theres lots of diffrentces between spaying and removing what an animal uses as its defence also if its because they can harm people and animals with there spray then why keep them thats like taking fangs from hots because they have venom and taken claws from lions and tigers because they can cause damage


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

how can you keep an unscented skunk?


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Adam - look at it this way.

If you had a skunk that was not descented. Your skunk becomes sick - females can become very sickwhent hey reach thier season and are not mated - what do you do? You cannot seek veterinarian attention because there are very little vets ithe UK who will treat a whole skunk (I think another forum had maybe 4 or 5 int he whole UK listed). So what do you do?

Spaying a skunk is a bigger procedure than having them descented and when done properly - by a qualified person - is a really, really basic operation and heals ever so quickly.

You could also look at the angle that, as captively kept animals, skukns have no need for thier spray at all. In a captive environment, they should be free form stress and threats to thier safety.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion on this. Each to thier own etc etc but there are more than just nose saving reasons for having skunks descented


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

thank you brittone05 as i did ask before was it only to stop them spraying and nobody answered that just went on about other stuff i under stand now thanks again


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

No probs Adam 

A lot of people are very emotive about topics such as this. Ifyou had asked me 2 or 3 years ago, I would have told you I did not agree with it. I did some reaodn, some research, spoke a LOT to Nerys, got to meet Nerys' clan and researched with a view to getting my own skunk one day.

A lot of pages are available that show how simple the procedure is and also show the other amazing sides to owning skunks - can dig out some links if you want and I KNOW Nerys has a tonne of skunky links to hand


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

they aren't wild there are they? i'm ate up with them and *****. nevr got sprayed yet...close to it!


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Not wild here no


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

so what if a few escape?


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Captive ones? To be honest, I wouldn't have a clue!!

I wouldn't imagine they would be ery well equipped for living "wild" - most here are captively born and raised so have never had to fend for themselves. A large percentage are descented so would not have thier ultimate defense.

I know Fixx posted a few weeks ago about an escapee skunk who was found in a night club!!!


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

altho just noticed nerys says there only done because of the spraying as said below but av now seen its also because vets wont treat an descented skunk


Nerys said:


> umm.. no!
> 
> the only reason skunks are descented is to ensure there is no danger to other household pets from their spray, and to ensure there is no danger to humans from their spray
> 
> ...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

they live in the city here. but what besides dogs would be able to mess with them there? i think they would take over like grey squirrels if they got a breeding population going.


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

also nerys as you asked our dogs and cats are not spayed or nutard as we watch them closely for there season and keep them under tight control over that period


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I would have thought foxes in the wild would be one, maybe in some areas badgers???

I am probably alking out of my rear ont hat though as I have not really lookd into it much.

I would thikn also that obviously, man would be a major problem. We are bad enough over cats nad foxes in the gardens here!!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

skunks are bold things. being nocturnal and living in urban areas i would tend to belive that they would get along fine and make a good living from trash like here. they always eat the cat food people leave out.


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