# Primates as Pets?



## firefly2280 (Jan 28, 2009)

Hi all

Im new here and I dont want to ruffle any feathers (or fur which seems more appropriate) but im a primate person and just scouting around on the internet scares me. I really thought that the government were not going to let people keep primates as pets anymore, but it seems that they can. As I'm new to the whole exotic pet thing, im looking for some reassurance. Is it really that easy to get hold of monkeys? I mean, I dont agree with keeping them at all, and certainly not as a baby substitute that some people think they are, but at least if they were going to be kept, do people have to go through screening? I dont want to offend anyone if they have primates as pets, believe me, I would love them, but I think its just not right.

And on a different note, I see a lot of you keep skunks... can I ask the obvious question...? what about the smell?? bet you get asked that all of the time!


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

firefly2280 said:


> Hi all
> 
> Im new here and I dont want to ruffle any feathers (or fur which seems more appropriate) but im a primate person and just scouting around on the internet scares me. I really thought that the government were not going to let people keep primates as pets anymore, but it seems that they can. As I'm new to the whole exotic pet thing, im looking for some reassurance. Is it really that easy to get hold of monkeys? I mean, I dont agree with keeping them at all, and certainly not as a baby substitute that some people think they are, but at least if they were going to be kept, do people have to go through screening? I dont want to offend anyone if they have primates as pets, believe me, I would love them, but I think its just not right.
> 
> And on a different note, I see a lot of you keep skunks... can I ask the obvious question...? what about the smell?? bet you get asked that all of the time!


 Skunks don't smell any more than a cat or dog smells. They certanly smell less than entire hob ferrets do. The only smell from a skunk is if a 'fully loaded' )not descented) one gets scared or upset and sprays you.
As for primates, you need to ask Rory off the forum who is a TSKA founder.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I have a pair of Common Marmosets. They are quite easy to get hold of, if you know where to look. That isn't to say they are for everyone. They are most certainly not! They need space & companionship from their own kind.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Totally agree with Fenwoman. After having a gorgeous visiting Skunk I can vouch for no smell, when he went you couldnt smell him on your clothes after cuddles or in the house unlike ferrets. If it wasnt for the fact they are very demanding I would have one tomorrow:flrt:


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

I love the smell of a happy skunk, actually *lol*


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

:flrt:Well, when Domino was here I was getting a huge hug off him!

Have to say, I ended up doing that rocking thing like you do with babies!


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Pimperella said:


> :flrt:Well, when Domino was here I was getting a huge hug off him!
> 
> Have to say, I ended up doing that rocking thing like you do with babies!


LOL pimps did you do the jiggle walk too :flrt::lol2:

skunks themselves dont smell.........unless they are fully loaded an spray lol 

its their poo that smells but hey...............dosnt everyones poo smell :lol2:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

what you have to remember about private primate keeping is that there are some very dedicated private keepers whos knowledge is vast and set ups rival and beat that of zoos.


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## firefly2280 (Jan 28, 2009)

SiUK said:


> what you have to remember about private primate keeping is that there are some very dedicated private keepers whos knowledge is vast and set ups rival and beat that of zoos.


Thats cool. Im just amazed at how easy it seems to be for amateurs to get hold of them and have this awful vision of loads of lone monkeys sitting in awful cages in the dark not being looked after...

And thanks for the skunk info! was just curious!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

firefly2280 said:


> Thats cool. Im just amazed at how easy it seems to be for amateurs to get hold of them and have this awful vision of loads of lone monkeys sitting in awful cages in the dark not being looked after...
> 
> And thanks for the skunk info! was just curious!


yeah I know what you mean mate, and sadly I expect there are people still keeping them like that here, definately in other parts of the world, but alot of primates here are still covered by the dwa license so they need a vets inspection to be able to keep them


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

SiUK said:


> what you have to remember about private primate keeping is that there are some very dedicated private keepers whos knowledge is vast and set ups rival and beat that of zoos.


unfortunately these are surpassed by people who think its ok to keep primates on their own in parrot cages in the front room. whilst i know some ver good and very dedicated private keepers, i also know people, and even on this forum there are people, who still think its ok to keep a monkey in a house. 

they are different from other "pets" yes. no, they are not the same as skunks, which will no doubt be flung at me, lol

personally, i don't agree with primates as "pets" . having primates in appropriate housing, with appropriate environmental stimulation, and with appropriate companions, is another matter... and as said, i have seen some fantastic set ups.. but... kept like that, they are not "pets" like a hamster or a kitten...

the current suspected figure for private primate keeping in the uk is over 10,000 animals.. how many of those do you really think have a decent outdoor setup with pairs or groups of primates? 

private primate keeping is being heavily looked at in the uk at the moment, and i think this is a good thing, as does rory. 

tska are working with other groups at the moment on the current state of the private primate market. no doubt this will not be popular with some, but imho, if you are not keeping correctly, you should not be keeping them at all.

tough love i guess you could say, but personally i would rather see them banned from private hands than kept in some of the things i have been shown recently. and i have said as much in "public" before, so to speak.

like me, hate me.. i don;t give a toss either way.. but you cannot stop me thinking what i think.

Nerys


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

SiUK said:


> yeah I know what you mean mate, and sadly I expect there are people still keeping them like that here, definately in other parts of the world, but alot of primates here are still covered by the dwa license so they need a vets inspection to be able to keep them


simon... just fyi..

there are currently 236 DWA licenses in the UK

the current estimated figure for non-compliance with the DWA is around 90%

236 DWA licenses... 10,000+ primates... Hmmmmmmmmm.....

(for that matter i would not mind betting there are more than 236 "hot" keepers in the uk too  )

not to mention the lack of paperwork seen, for instance the pair of cotton top tams on freeads i think it is.. £2000, 5yrs old.. sounds a good deal.. but they have no paperwork, they need an Article 10, and they don't have one. technically, tho non dwa, they are in ilegal primate without a10's..

N


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Emmaj said:


> LOL pimps did you do the jiggle walk too :flrt::lol2:
> 
> skunks themselves dont smell.........unless they are fully loaded an spray lol
> 
> its their poo that smells but hey...............dosnt everyones poo smell :lol2:


 Mine doesn't :whistling2:








:lol2:


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## firefly2280 (Jan 28, 2009)

thanks for the info Nerys. I didn't really realise the scale of it. That's an awful lot of unhappy monkeys. Like you said, if they have the proper enrichment and environment, then I still don't like it, but I can deal with it. I mean, once I'm settled and have a big house with a huge garden, I would love to take in rescue primates, but only with the right knowledge. 

Its a sad fact that defra and others cant even enforce the laws they have passed like the wildlife and countryside act to prevent cruelty because its too hard to prove in a lot of cases, so how are they going to stop the cruelty to pets?


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

and that, of course, is the million dollar question..

especially when you look at current plans for changes to the way dwal's are managed.. 

N


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## scotshop (Apr 20, 2007)

we get daily requests for people wanting " a monkey like ross has on friends" or "like the helper monkeys in the states" because they think its cool, like a status symbol or something to make their friends jealous! it disgusts me but sadly, doesn't surprise me.

and yes i do have kinkajous, one of which spends a lot of time in the house. however, he is hand-reared and thinks of himself as one of us.
the female is zoo bred though and has now moved out to an outdoor enclosure which i have no doubt she is happier in and i'm sure she enjoys the peace and quiet when Kito (the male) is in the house.

primates though are colony animals and i firmly believe they should be kept that way.

the last thing you want to have to deal with is a stressed monkey with behavioural problems!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

My pair had twins on Saturday 31st. Pics in Other Pets section.


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

firefly2280 said:


> Thats cool. Im just amazed at how easy it seems to be for amateurs to get hold of them and have this awful vision of loads of lone monkeys sitting in awful cages in the dark not being looked after...


Cruelty to animals happens in all species, dogs and cats being without doubt the number one victims. I don't think any animal should have extra restrictions to prevent animal cruelty (after all why is a dogs life worth less than a monkey?) But proven cases of cruelty (that have had independant experianced witnesses, where required) should result in tougher penalties, perhaps even going back to the supplier.


Zoo-man, congrats on the twins :2thumb:


As stated by others, some private keepers have facilities and experiance that far out strips many zoos.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

The problem is that anyone who has the money to buy, can have a monkey and keep it in unsuitable conditions. I have even heard of someone who keeps marmosets in a cage in their living room FFS:bash:

This is bad on several levels, firstly because a noisy living room with television sounds etc isn't good. Secondly, just like all animals, including humans, they need sunlight on them which they won't get in a living room and thirdly, how on earth can they behave like monkeys, getting proper exersize, in a flipping parrot cage. No doubt that person will try to justify his abuse of them because in his own mind, he's doing nothing wrong.
If that same person then compounds the abuse by removing the babies they have, at 12 weeks old, and selling them as lone pets to anyone who can come up with the money, well what can I say other than, that sort of primate keeper isn't a fitting or caring one at all, but a selfish person.


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

We had someone come in to the shop the other week asking for a harness for a marmoset! :bash:


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

Scott W said:


> Cruelty to animals happens in all species, dogs and cats being without doubt the number one victims. I don't think any animal should have extra restrictions to prevent animal cruelty (after all why is a dogs life worth less than a monkey?) But proven cases of cruelty (that have had independant experianced witnesses, where required) should result in tougher penalties, perhaps even going back to the supplier.
> 
> 
> Zoo-man, congrats on the twins :2thumb:
> ...


agreed scott, and one of the things being looked into is how sellers, both private ones and brokerages such as TSKA, can be "policed". unfortunately not all sellers have the same outlook that on what makes a suitable owner. 

have you seen some of the ads about at the moment? how about the Pair of Cotton Top Tamarins. currently advertised in Cage and Aviary for £1800

cotton top tams, require Article 10 paperwork, in order to make them "legal" monkeys. without this, those monkeys are technically un-sell-able. without the correct paperwork, you are not allowed to sell, or publically display, cotton top tamarins.

the sellers have been told this. several times. despite this fact, i know they have currently taken a deposit on said tam's, and they are awaiting pick up by the new owner. this sale is breaking the law. yet.. nothing will be done about it. even me sticking it on here, on a post i KNOW is being watched by "other" groups... still nothing will be done about it. the law's an arse as they say..

we are asked all the time for monkeys, but actually sell only a few. 

and as said many times before, we don't consider someones house the best place for monkey to live. Sure, as scott says, as we have said ourselves.. SOME private keepers have fantastic set ups..

but.. out of the estimated 10,000-15,000 privately kept primates in the uk.. how many of those do you REALLY think belong to people with such set ups, and how many are living in someones front room?? sure, we can legislate the seller, but how does that stop someone like [rem] here, keeping marmosets in his house, breeding them, and selling the babies on at sub 6 months? how will it help scott? does he have these fantasic facilites that you talk about these wonderful private keepers having?? No. and how does it stop the seller of the cotton tops? and how does it stop the monkey farmers that are in the uk? keeping rows upon rows of small primates in breeding units to supply the demand for baby monkeys? it doesn't. it won't.

so.. maybe the majority of privtely kept primates are being kept in sub standard accomodation... yet only the minority of keepers are doing it right... so what.. because a few get it right, its ok to the let rest suffer?? lets not put any more restrictions on keeping animals... why.. so that it makes it easier for those who might want to get them in the future? becasue we think its our god given right to keep them? 

if you are doing it right, or planning to do it right... then why does extra restriction on who can keep them, and how they are kept.. worry people?? nothing to hide? nothing to worry about?? right?

you cannot compare this to cats and dogs. its a whole different ball game to keeping a cat, beyond the basic needs. (food/shelter/health).. and to say all animals suffer abuse is a bit like saying the sun rises everyday (ie pretty bloody obvious)

so what.. we cannot worry about specifics now? its ok to abuse a monkey.. as every other animal gets abused.. so why not them???

shit.. i sound like an anti! tbh... more and more these days, i begin to see some of the points they make. 

even some very Pro people.. have recently been heard to say that the animal defender groups, at times, make a lot more sense than the animal keepers..

Nerys


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## scotshop (Apr 20, 2007)

well said Nerys. 

we are licensed to sell primates and get lots of enquiries most of which lose interest when you mention homecheck and questionairre!

Ross Geller (friends) has a lot to answer for!
:lol2:

I totally understand why the RSPCA and others want a ban on sales of primates and other exotics. as with everything in life, a few idiots ruin it for everyone else.


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

glidergirl said:


> We had someone come in to the shop the other week asking for a harness for a marmoset! :bash:


Thats just rediculous!:bash:


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Phwar! Awesome Nerys! I agree with and I had no idea there where monkey farmers supplying the private sector! Thats sick! Tighter restrictions are needed if the problem is as wide spread as you say, and harsher penalties. It unfair for many to suffer with the hope a few may not. Its also madness to clump all captive animals together which is what im sure the RSPCA will do. Primates are highly intelligent (you all know this) so they are capable of suffering on a multitude of levels.


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

Yes, without doubt sensible legislation, based on the principle that promotes the keeping of the species involved would be great and I'd happily fight for that.

Sadly the reality is that most legislation is geared up towards preventing people rather than encouraging them to do it the correct way. 

I have no idea how many bad set ups there are in comparison to good private set ups, again this is the reality of almost all 'pets' kept in captivity. Yes I don't disagree that primates need a lot more care and commitment than say a few snakes but nothing that's not achieable by a dedicated keeper.

As for Article 10 paperwork, why do you think there are some around without any? My guess it's zoo stock that went out the back door, either then bred and young sold or the original keeper has decided to move them on. I would be amazed if any were actually smuggled imports, certainly not WC. I'm certainly not saying it's right.

As I said, I'm NOT opposed to a registration scheme, that has a sensible backbone to it, something that DOES allow for the private keeper to keep what they wish.


Nerys' what would you propose is you had the opportunity to put a system / legislation in place?


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

scotshop said:


> I totally understand why the RSPCA and others want a ban on sales of primates and other exotics. as with everything in life, a few idiots ruin it for everyone else.


True, BUT where would you draw the line?

What animals are you prepared to allow into private hands? What makes one group more acceptable to allow cruelty / neglect compared to others?


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

Nerys said:


> simon... just fyi..
> 
> there are currently 236 DWA licenses in the UK
> 
> ...


Where did you get those figures Nerys? 
If it was from the Channel 5 news article, then that was based on DWA reptiles not mammals.
Do you really believe there are 10'000 primates in private collections? (that's one for every 600 people in the UK or 1 for every 260 households).


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## mEOw (Dec 28, 2006)

i dont agree with keeping monkeys as pets, it's somethign that has always really ground my gears. but i also believe that every animal deserves a chance at life so 5 months ago when my oh brought a day old marmoset home to hand rear (parents couldnt rear it, long story) i went along with it all fully expecting the lil guy to die. anyway, after it was obvious that he wasnt going to die we thought long and hard about what to do with the lil guy, it came down to two options in the end, send him back to where he came from in which case he would have been lead trained and used to show off to members of the public (no $£*&%£$ way!) or keep him ourselves (the one condition with that one was we cant sell or give him to anyone else) which is far from ideal but seemed like the better option. anyway, 5 months on he has a friend and our living room is basically a large marmoset enclosure with ropes, branches, ceramics and uv lights everywhere, they have a large cage that they go to at night to sleep in but spend most of their time out and about.
to sum up, we ended up with a pair of marmosets not out of choice but because out of the two options the guy had staying with us seemed like the lesser of two evils.

after we move they will hopefully have a large outdoor enclosure with a heated shed, it helps i have done a lot of enclosure building before and know what im doing so i can do the building work myself but where we are at the moment it unfortunatley isnt possible.. 

Owen


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

Hi Owen,

Interesting story, glad you managed to save the youngster. I'm curious though that you had such a firm view on private ownership of primates and yet you have now a pair kept in your living room, seems totally at odds with your belief.

I find it hard to believe that even though you were told you couldn't sell it or pass it on you still didn't, I mean after all "it really ground your gears" seeing monkeys as pets, so upsetting someone by doing the right thing (passing it on to a good home) would be a small price to pay surely?

I think the term 'keep monkeys as pets' is certainly the wrong message and straight away gives the impression that they are going to be kept as more of a toy or entertainment object rather than as fascinating animal to watch and study.

I'm not attacking or disrepecting the fact you saved this life or even the way you now keep a pair but I do find it irritating to hear people that keep something themselves but say that others shouldn't. 

A good example is that self righteous guy that owned Monkey World, that was just a glorified private collection but of course he would get more funds and income by actually turning tables and then fight and lobby against private primate ownership, which of course is fine for him....he has already had the time to turn his private collection into a charity.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Scott W said:


> Hi Owen,
> 
> Interesting story, glad you managed to save the youngster. I'm curious though that you had such a firm view on private ownership of primates and yet you have now a pair kept in your living room, seems totally at odds with your belief.
> 
> ...


 I can see how and why Owen has 2 monkeys in his living room. If he had no furniture in the living room and the entire space was given over to the monkeys, would thayt make it acceptable in your eyes? He's already said that he has UV lighting in there, he admits that it isn't ideal but also says that there are very few optios which would be beneficial to the monkey and as soon as possible, things will be changed for the better.
I can fully see where he is coming from in his condemntation of 'pet' monkeys being kept in a parrot cage in aliving room, while keeping a couple in his home himself, and personally cannot see that this is hypocritical in any way. He stated his views and is making the best of a bad situation by his own admission and stated that this is a temporary situation. People cannot just willy nilly flout and agreement as you suggest and doing so, might have meant that he forfeited the monkey to a far less than suitable life.
It's a bit like my stating that I hate and abhor dogs being chained up outside, but because I had to live next to a busy motorway, had to chain all of my dogs up to keep them safe, as a temporary measure, until I got secure fencing erected. Would it make me a hypocrite? I don't think so. I'd still hate and abhor keeping dogs on chains, but would hate even more, to have my dogs killed on the motorway.


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

Nerys, curious to your thoughts to my posts.


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