# Important



## gaz

Media release

Government to ban commercial
trading of pet animals at fairs


In a sudden turn of events, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) has today announced that it proposes to ban commercial
trading at pet fairs in the new Animal Welfare Bill. The Animal Protection Agency (APA), which spearheaded a campaign to stamp out such barbaric
trading of mainly exotic, wild-caught animals, has commended the Government and now looks forward to the Bill receiving Royal Assent.

Other organisations that opposed commercial pet markets include, the British Veterinary Association, RSPCA, RSPB, BioVeterinary Group, BirdsFirst,
International Fund for Animal Welfare, World Society for the Protection of Animals, Captive Animals¹ Protection Society, Born Free Foundation, Animal
Aid, Wildlife Conservation Society, New Life Parrot Rescue and the Tortoise Trust. 

APA will now be holding talks with its many associate organisations to discuss how best they can support DEFRA with their new plans.

A Judicial Review judgement in June cleared-up any ambiguity relating to the current law on pet fairs, and DEFRA described it as a Œuseful contribution
to the debate¹. The APA are in concert with Animal Welfare Minister, Ben Bradshaw, that DEFRA¹s revised measures will help to provide ³the best
protection yet for animals at pet fairs.²

Elaine Toland, Director of APA, said:
³The Government¹s new and clear intention to prohibit commercial trading of animals at pet fairs is a most welcome advancement for animal welfare that
sits comfortably in a Bill designed to bring about real improvements in the way we treat animals. The Animal Welfare Bill, with this latest commitment,
ensures genuine protection for countless thousands of pet and wild animals.
²

Clifford Warwick, Consultant Biologist and Medical Scientist, said:
³For many years I¹ve been familiar with the worrisome issue of commercial trading of wildlife at pet fairs. Combined, the hard work of many local
authorities to stamp out these events has been constructively built on by animal welfare groups such as the APA and more recently the High Court.
DEFRA¹s revised position to ban commercial selling of animals at pet fairs is arguably the most important and positive move on this subject for a long time. It is to be welcomed and is sure to be widely supported in the key circles.

The ŒStop UK Pet Markets¹ campaign also enjoyed the support of world-renowned experts in biology, conservation and medicine. The APA campaign team were heartened by the enormous cross-party support right up to high-level discussions with MPs, Ministers and Peers. Cherie Blair, Gordon
Brown and Environment Minister, David Miliband, personally expressed to APA their genuine interest in the issue.



bugger!
gaz


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## SiUK

so thats gonna stop big reptile expos, Hamm ect I hope you dont mind me posting it on another forum


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## gaz

its just the UK,post it everywhere,heres something else i found
quoting Chris Newman here,hope he wont mind
"
There is a private members Bill before parliament proposing a ban on Internet sales, this is supported by most Animal Rights organisations, IFAW, RSPCA, AA, APA etc. I have been working on drafting a code of practice for Internet sales for the passed few months, I am hopeful this will stave of a total ban, however, there are some very powerful opponents [aforementioned] that will/are trying to scupper this. 

Between shows and internet sales we, animal keepers, face some difficult times. "
regards gaz


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## SiUK

yeh definatelty thats a bad idea though because then it will be left to local petshops which we all know that some are not great then the genuine breeders and people that sell online will have a hard time keeping in business


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## Issa

have you got a link for where this release came from?


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## gaz

i found it on livefood uk under "everything else"
gaz


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## Nerys

also worth pointing out tho, that last year only one show in the UK actually allowed traders to sell livestock anyway....

the essex shows, PRAS, all the FBH/IHS ones.. have never openly allowed traders to sell livestock, only dry stock.. 

private hobbiest breeders are, as yet, not affected.. 

N


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## HABU

sounds like they are gunning for you guys over there. that sucks. should'nt you all write you gov. reps? you all are a big block of people.


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## boabloketony

Thanks for making it known to us Gaz, I've posted it on another forum too !!!

Tony


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## ratboy

Gaz, that report was from October last year. I *hope* that APA are jumping the gun and celebrating a bit early.

This is a later report from the DEFRA website ... See Annex C on Page 24. According to DEFRA, this was last updated in November.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/act/pdf/ria1.pdf


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## candoia aspera

i would have said it was a money making spinner for the gov to perhaps reintro them with appropriate licencing etc, however with RSPCA etc becoming involved..........
wonder if uk will but pressure on EU?


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## ratboy

Issa said:


> have you got a link for where this release came from?


The actual press release is from Animal Protection Agency Home Page dated 10 Oct 2006


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## gaz

either way the writings on the wall,things are being put in place to allow strangulation of the reptile hobby,transport,shows,internet sales...what next?


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## Issa

gaz said:


> either way the writings on the wall,things are being put in place to allow strangulation of the reptile hobby,transport,shows,internet sales...what next?


Slowly revoking every exotic pet shop license in the uk would probably be the next step.


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## ratboy

It's been coming for years, amidst choruses of "It will never happen" that are still ringing out loudly.

Chris Newman is trying to set up small meetings where people can discuss and ask questions about what the AWB actually means and how it will affect people. I am going to try and organise one for the South ( Surrey Area ) if anyone is interested.


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## gaz

New Labour,the Ban it government!!


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## Nerys

issa - plans are afoot for a series of meetings about all this, again being discussed on LF at the moment.. half the hobbiest tho, are too bone idle to get off their arses and do anything about it.. and the other half are the group that think "it won't happen to me" yada yada yada.. i honestly predict it getting harder and harder to keep things within the letter of the law..

half the things that have come into force, have only done so as the AA brigade raised £50k from the public sector and took the AWB to a judicial review.. now if only the animal keeping bridage could do the same.. but again, apathy is too high.

N


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## ratboy

The *actual* press release from DEFRA is 
*Government proposes to regulate pet fairs*

New measures to stop the commercial sale of animals at pet fairs will be introduced under the Animal Welfare Bill, Defra announced today. 
Following a judicial ruling on pet fairs, the Government has decided to review its plans to regulate these events. 
While commercial sales of animals will be banned, there will be exemptions in the cases of koi carp, racing pigeons and poultry. These will need to be licensed by the local authority. 
As before, pet fairs that do not involve the sale of animals, or that do involve the sale of animals but not in the course of a business, can continue without the need for a licence. 
Ben Bradshaw, Minister for Animal Health and Welfare, said: "I believe that the revised measures on pet fairs, together with our proposals to raise the standards of pet vending generally and the introduction of the welfare offence for companion animals, provide the best protection yet for animals at pet fairs." 
The new proposals on pet fairs will be issued for full consultation before they go before Parliament. 
*Notes to editors*

1. The regulation of pet fairs will be made through secondary legislation under the Animal Welfare Bill, currently before Parliament. If the Bill receives Royal Assent before the end of this Parliamentary session it will begin to be brought into force from April 2007. 
2. Clause 13 of the Animal Welfare Bill allows regulations to be made to regulate animal related activities for purposes of welfare. 
3. The Government's original proposal, published in the Regulatory Impact Assessment that accompanies the AW Bill, was to regulate all pet fairs that involved the commercial sale of animals. 
4. The Government reviewed its proposal in the light of a Judicial Review judgement made on 14 June 2006 in the case of Haynes v. Stafford Borough Council which ruled that, under existing legislation relating to the sale of pet animals (the Pet Animals Act 1951), local authorities could not issue licences to organisers of pet fairs, that come within the description contained in section 2 of the 1951 Act. 


Defra, UK - News releases 2006: Government proposes to regulate pet fairs


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## gaz

it is April 2007,has it been approved or delayed?
regards gaz


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## ratboy

It got Royal Assent last November : Defra, UK - News stories - 2006 stories - Animal Welfare Act receives Royal Assent

I don't think it is in force yet though... Not 100% sure what is and what isn't being implemented at the moment... which is what these meetings will tell us.


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## Nerys

as far as i am aware.. its now been passed,for instance, the planned north west reptile show, is now, to the best of my knowledge, breaking the law, if it goes ahead as publicised.. surely that means its in force now?

N



> New measures to stop the commercial sale of animals at pet fairs will be introduced under the Animal Welfare Bill, Defra announced today.
> * Following a judicial ruling on pet fairs*, the Government has decided to review its plans to regulate these events.
> While commercial sales of animals will be banned, there will be exemptions in the cases of koi carp, racing pigeons and poultry. These will need to be licensed by the local authority.


the bit in bold, is what the anti's spent £50,000 of public money doing.. before that, the AWB had been re-jigged so as not to be so bad... amazing that the goverment can agree on something, then just by raising £50k the antis can have it all thrown out on judicial review..

N


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## Issa

Unfortunately though the entire reptile industry is a time bomb just waiting to go off from what I can figure. I've used this example before but it works here just as well. A freak accident where a reptile keeper is attacked and injured, if it was spun right in the media would be as damaging to the reptile industry as the dunblane massacre was to the sport of target shooting. With the wide diversity of species available at the moment and very few (if any in some cases) safeguards in place to restrict the more dangerous species, the results are accidents that can then be blown out of proportion.


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## gaz

the anti brigade has always had the ear of this present government,coutesy of Cherie"the horror" Blair who is well known as anti hunt/shoot/fish/pets/fun/life etc etc,(oh i forgot anti UK too),the other major problem we face is that the media in all forms,though notably the BBC are also very anti brigade friendly and will always either give them all the airtime they want or simply misconstrue the facts to please their anti friends,personally i think that when i was out on the pro hunt demos we should have burnt Mr Blair while hanging him at the same time and not just an effigy,these people wont be happy until each of us is locked in a padded room where we cant get up to anything we may enjoy,its a rtevival of the Puritans all over again...anyone seen Cromwell??or is that Gordon...........
possibly moving to a more enlightened country would be a good move now...Rwanda couldnt be much more repressive for instance
regards gaz


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## ratboy

Nerys said:


> as far as i am aware.. its now been passed,for instance, the planned north west reptile show, is now, to the best of my knowledge, breaking the law, if it goes ahead as publicised.. surely that means its in force now?
> 
> N


Good point. I think there are a few trying to get the show stopped, or at least made legal by stopping commercial traders from attending.


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## gaz

trouble is that without the professional breeders the variety will diminish rapidly to the point where shows will become unattractive
gaz


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## Nerys

gaz - "proffesional" breeders... or those who do it for a living, are not allowed at the uk shows anyway...

tbh.. and yes this is a dig, tho not just at you

BUT

if as many people took as much time and effort worrying over the AWB as they did on taking pics of their tits and cocks.. and then posting hundreds of pages of comments on it.. then maybe we would not have a problem at all..

N


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## ratboy

No arguments here Gaz. My guess is that they will then get internet sales banned using the same reasoning that WC animals can just as easily be sold online as at shows leaving only shops as outlets for professional breeders.


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## Nerys

and thats when they will stick the licensing on you.. to sell to a shop you need to have X Y and Z in place.. etc etc etc

N


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## candoia aspera

there are ways and means around everything, the music industry are still trying to stop file sharing for example.
what's with the t*ts and c*&ks bit all about?


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## Nerys

its an ironic reflection on the fact that a thread called "please perv here" got billions of looks, and 700 pages of posts... not to mention half the members on here making the effort to go to some lengths to portry themselves in, (what is not always) the best light.. people were up all night drooling for the latest installment.. 

yet you post on here about the AWB, or about the new EU restrictions, or about anything remotely important... and most of the forum users can't even be bothered to answer.. and of those who bother to answer, how many are just "ah.. it will never happen to us"

look at the big posters, and look at how many posts they make on "perv" threads.. and how many on "future of our hobby" threads.. and maybe you'll see what i mean by it.. as long as reptile keepers are more into seeing a pair of over inflated mammories.. or a plucked chicken...than they are in keeping the hobby going.. then its no wonder the antis can raise £50k for a judicial review.. whilst we all sit here oggling crap.

N


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## 1949_sam

*Wow i can't belive that, i've only been keeping reptiles for over a year now? And i had no idea about this.*


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## LeeH

im not too good with words but its really worrying for future of reptilekeeping


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## Nerys

exactly my point hon... and yet how much time did you spend on the perv thread? i know you spent time posing and arranging shots, and i'm not knocking you for it (yours looked better than many!) 

BUT..

its not me being a bitch (for once) its me trying to make a point

look how many snakes and things you have picked up in the last year... you are just the sort of person who needs to be doing something about the fact that unless you are careful, give it a few years and you may not be able to keep them at all. 

people might think its over reacting.. but... tbh.. isn't it better that we over react, than not react at all?

N


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## candoia aspera

ah, thought you had to subscribe to that s**t, tazzyasb told me about it and i'm not interested in looking (plenty of porn else where). thanks for the heads up on it though.

so my question is........>

dog breeding is reife and puppy farms cause far more distress and fatalitiys than the snake comunity can ever create. why consentrate you time on a small trade unless it becomes a comercial venture for the govenment (hasn't cites reg jumped in price recently?)
so what are the reg on puppy breeders? perhaps RSPCA should be looking there at the big picture.
if it wasn't for private breeders some species of snakes would be gone from this planet. makes you so angry to think about it


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## Nerys

you do now, have to subscribe, i haven't bothered, if i want to look at a nude woman, i find a mirror 

dogs, their time will come... they are already active in many spheres in the doggy world... bidding their time..

basically the dog brigade have more money, people, and publicity than the reptile brigade, so they pick on us first..

not to mention that half the public are scared of reptiles, so its easier to get public opinion against them

there are very few people who publically fight the reptile cause, and of those that do, some suffer greatly for it...

spouses who have been beaten, children who have been burnt, pet animals that have been decapitated and strewn over someones garden for their kids to find... its all happened to people who have gone up against them. reptile people.

people think the antis are some soft force who will not get anything done... well.. thats not the case at all.. above board/below board.. their members are more passionate about banning animal keeping, than animals keepers are about figthing.. and so they are winning.. 

N


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## ratboy

This isn't only the RSPCA though, it's mainly organisations like Animal Aid, Animal Protection Agency, PETA etc that are not charities, they are businesses with no charitable status.

They do not want animals kept in captivity at all. At the moment they are after Reptile and Amphibian keepers, Bird keepers and recently Fish keepers. Note who it was that got the huge bird shows shut down last year. Avian flu was a godsend to them.

It's too early for them to start on dogs and cats... but keep an eye in the press about articles about how unhygenic they are, what diseases they carry, how dangerous they are to children and councils having designated dog walking areas etc... this stuff is already hapenning and is the same method used with Reptiles/Salmonella stories etc.


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## Nerys

the rspca have said they want nothing to do with the administering of the AWB haven't they steve?

great, does that mean even they think it sucks!

N


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## candoia aspera

it should come under the heading of bigotry (sorry spelling ain't my strong point.

here's a good example, the council came round to our house, we have 2 dogs, 1 bd, hundreds of mice aka snake food, and our snakes. a surveyer came round to look for a new kitchen. he looked everywhere and was curious about the snakes, opened one of the boxes and had a stroke of one of our corns (lav i think but not improtant). anyway he was cool with it.
the next week we get a letter saying we had to get the snakes out, we looked at the tenancy agreement it states no snakes over 1m in length ect. basically we can have a billion lizards, 2 dogs and all the mice in the world.
what happened was that he went back the office told his work collegues and word got round, there was a big kick off with council workers and the told their boss they ref to come to our house to do work unless the snakes are gone. so my collection is at a safe house until the work is complete. what the hell?? do they all think that snakes are f**king cobras and can kill you????


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## skimpy

This is the bit i dont get.

I had to report this old cow for severe animal cruelty and neglect of 2 gorgeous collie dogs....she let them wander the streets, raiding the rubbish, while she stocked up on her bottles of voddie. the dogs are at death's door. The SSPCA took them away on Friday after my call. Anyone can keep a dog or cat, but many cannot look after them....yet rep keepers have their eyes wide open when they take on their first rep, and for each one after....all the time they are aware of financial constraints, space, time. Why are they picking on us when this country is a state with stray dogs and cats? Parvo virus and another doggy killer on the rise coz people cant be bothered innoculating their dogs.


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## ratboy

Yes. It will be councils that administer it, the RSPCA have no extra powers at all. My guess ( and it is a guess ) is that all their prosecutions are private and they have a hugely successful success rate with the cases they bring. If they policed the AWB, it would have to be a criminal prosection which went through the CPS and would therefore be taken out of their hands... by policing the AWB, they would effectively become less powerful than they are ?

Better for them to prosecute the cases they know they can win privately and give the rest to the council to prosecute under the AWB if they decide there is a case to answer.


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## Nerys

just googled for the peta quote on animals coffins and captivity and found some interesting things..

Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF)

According to the CCF's fliers, PETA "killed over 80 percent of the flesh-and-blood animals it took in" in 2004 and has euthanized more than 12,400 animals since 1998.

An animal rights activist on Wednesday defended PETA's involvement in the killing of an estimated 12,000 animals that had been taken in as strays..

PETA Protesters Defend Mass Animal Euthanasia -- 11/10/2005

many of the animal rights followers, would rather see an animal dead than in captivity

they have in the past said, that should, for instance, snake keeping be banned, then its better to kill all the snakes anyway, than keep them in captivity..

for instance, the new laws on keeping EU species (which i bet half of you don't even know about). when the proposed confisacting all european species who could not be proven as CB.. someone asked what would happen to all those animals, once they were taken. and the answer? they would be killed, as death is better than life in a box.

N


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## Nerys

> Better for them to prosecute the cases they know they can win privately and give the rest to the council to prosecute under the AWB if they decide there is a case to answer.


yeah that would follow..

N


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## candoia aspera

what can you say to that?


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## Dan

As far as i am concerned we have already lost the war.

I've sat and watched various bills get passed with those people who are fighting for us bend over and take it EVERY time.

That judicial review SHOULD have been a nice and easy one to get rid of (in the scheme of things) but yet again we got shafted.

How many people know where to donate money? If every member of every forum donated just £5 a year we could have raised well over £125,000 to fight these idiots.

Face it folks, we're screwed. Enjoy what you have, while you have it and make plans to move abroad when you need to. It's the best way to continue enjoying the hobby.


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## candoia aspera

reticulatus said:


> As far as i am concerned we have already lost the war.
> 
> I've sat and watched various bills get passed with those people who are fighting for us bend over and take it EVERY time.
> 
> That judicial review SHOULD have been a nice and easy one to get rid of (in the scheme of things) but yet again we got shafted.
> 
> How many people know where to donate money? If every member of every forum donated just £5 a year we could have raised well over £125,000 to fight these idiots.
> 
> Face it folks, we're screwed. Enjoy what you have, while you have it and make plans to move abroad when you need to. It's the best way to continue enjoying the hobby.


 
you will still manage it, just at a cost. even if the money was raise people opions of reptiles will make sure it's money wrongly spent, if they do make it impossible what will happen to the snakes??


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## 1949_sam

Nerys said:


> exactly my point hon... and yet how much time did you spend on the perv thread? i know you spent time posing and arranging shots, and i'm not knocking you for it (yours looked better than many!)
> 
> BUT..
> 
> its not me being a bitch (for once) its me trying to make a point
> 
> look how many snakes and things you have picked up in the last year... you are just the sort of person who needs to be doing something about the fact that unless you are careful, give it a few years and you may not be able to keep them at all.
> 
> people might think its over reacting.. but... tbh.. isn't it better that we over react, than not react at all?
> 
> N


*Yea your right hon, i do get your point but what can i do to help as i'm really worried now?*



bci said:


> it should come under the heading of bigotry (sorry spelling ain't my strong point.
> 
> here's a good example, the council came round to our house, we have 2 dogs, 1 bd, hundreds of mice aka snake food, and our snakes. a surveyer came round to look for a new kitchen. he looked everywhere and was curious about the snakes, opened one of the boxes and had a stroke of one of our corns (lav i think but not improtant). anyway he was cool with it.
> the next week we get a letter saying we had to get the snakes out, we looked at the tenancy agreement it states no snakes over 1m in length ect. basically we can have a billion lizards, 2 dogs and all the mice in the world.
> what happened was that he went back the office told his work collegues and word got round, there was a big kick off with council workers and the told their boss they ref to come to our house to do work unless the snakes are gone. so my collection is at a safe house until the work is complete. what the hell?? do they all think that snakes are f**king cobras and can kill you????


*I'll have to check my tenancy now as i now i'm allowed 2 cats, 1 dog? but i also have 10 corns and 1 royal plus rats/mice, and i'm due a move as i have 4 boys in a 2 bedroom flat on the 6th foor?*


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## Nerys

> if they do make it impossible what will happen to the snakes??


this is how they will end up, if the antis have their own way..










N


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## gaz

if they do make it impossible what will happen to the snakes??

N has answered that neatly for all the unbelievers/unconvinced out there,AR organisations have NEVER been concerned about living creatures,merely with their own idealogical doctrine,this has been borne out in every campain they have been involved in,from hunting with dogs in the UK to big game hunting(and its reinstation) in Kenya.
in each case once the relevant laws are in place the AR groups generally take no further part in that arena,preferring to leave enforcement to the relevant authorities while the trippy toe onto the next target,all the while lavishly funded by little old grannies and assorted ****wits who believe all the hype
regards gaz
unfortunately for me just about everything i do is or has already been a target for these people,what a lovely world


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## candoia aspera

i don't know but every district have diff rules so go through it with a fine tooth combe.
i plan on making a rack with pritty closing doors like a walbrobe (sorry for the spelling) so if anyone comes in then all they see is a cupboard not snakes, not sure what i'll do about the boas. they'll all have to be moved in the dead of night though.


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## Nerys

> How many people know where to donate money? If every member of every forum donated just £5 a year we could have raised well over £125,000 to fight these idiots


tbh dan.. bearing in mind the scope if it all... if every snake, lizard, insect and tortoise keeper donated a pound... and then every bird keeper.. and every small mammal keeper... we could probably get enough to pay Labour off.. if you can buy a peerage, who knows what else you can buy!

N


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## 1949_sam

Nerys said:


> this is how they will end up, if the antis have their own way..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> N


*Thats horrorble  why are they doing this to these lovely animals*


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## ratboy

There really isn't much you can do on your own Sam. As Dan says, the damage has really already been done.... as said earlier, this has been going on for years.

As a hobby, I think the only hope we have is the European court of human rights, but will we get motivated for that ? I suspect that keepers will go on saying "It will never happen" until it has.



Steve.


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## candoia aspera

gaz said:


> if they do make it impossible what will happen to the snakes??
> 
> N has answered that neatly for all the unbelievers/unconvinced out there,AR organisations have NEVER been concerned about living creatures,merely with their own idealogical doctrine,this has been borne out in every campain they have been involved in,from hunting with dogs in the UK to big game hunting(and its reinstation) in Kenya.
> in each case once the relevant laws are in place the AR groups generally take no further part in that arena,preferring to leave enforcement to the relevant authorities while the trippy toe onto the next target,all the while lavishly funded by little old grannies and assorted ****wits who believe all the hype
> regards gaz


right so have the gov ever thought about the fact that they could work with breeders or more make breeders work with zoo's to help save A10's and extinct spec such as hog island boa's get put back where they belong in the wild, surely that makes more sence, not money sence but common.

sorry just read the last part and realised we were talking about govenement here


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## Nerys

> i don't know but every district have diff rules so go through it with a fine tooth combe.
> i plan on making a rack with pritty closing doors like a walbrobe (sorry for the spelling) so if anyone comes in then all they see is a cupboard not snakes, not sure what i'll do about the boas. they'll all have to be moved in the dead of night though


this will not work either...

what are you going to do when you need a vet for one of them?

where are you going to get food for them?

(breed your own = answering questions about why you have them..)

at the rate we are going... racks will be banned before long... the new duty of care regulations will mean racks are outlawed before much longer... they do not have enough space in them to comply with the standards of duty of care. 

it doesn't matter how many people fuss and bother about royals prefering racks... the laws are not written to what the animal wants.. they are written to what a human thinks an animal wants.. 

i honestly predict that before much longer, racks as we know them now, will be outlawed.

N


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## candoia aspera

no dude, i was answering what i'm going to do about getting my snakes back into my house after the work is done, not a clue what will be done long term.


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## Nerys

1949_sam said:


> *Thats horrorble  why are they doing this to these lovely animals*


because they honestly believe that an animal is better off dead than in captivity

i have to say, when i see the state some people keep their animals in, i agree IN SOME CASES..

N


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## 1949_sam

ratboy said:


> There really isn't much you can do on your own Sam. As Dan says, the damage has really already been done.... as said earlier, this has been going on for years.
> 
> As a hobby, I think the only hope we have is the European court of human rights, but will we get motivated for that ? I suspect that keepers will go on saying "It will never happen" until it has.
> 
> 
> 
> Steve.


*Thats just sooo sad, i love all my pets to bits and i even cry like a baby when i've lose a few  there must be something that we can all do as we have rights to and as long as all are animals are ketp happy and healthy then we must be able to doo something.*

*And them people who keep saying * It will never happen to me* it's already happening  *


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## pauln

So if money could be raised, where would it go who would co-ordinate its use. I think if there was a target organistion that could be donated too, then more would do it. If there is one already then its profile needs to be raised.


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## Nerys

bci said:


> no dude, i was answering what i'm going to do about getting my snakes back into my house after the work is done, not a clue what will be done long term.


ah right... gotchya

landlords = pain in the butt! tell them that you have changed your collection, for Intermontana Corns ( a dwarf corn species) and for.. umm... dwarf crawl cay boas... both of whom do not exceed a metre in length (well, just about.. but i can't see them measuring them..) unless they have a snake expert on the council, how are they going to prove otherwise?

its something i have heard many people say tho... 

"If its banned i will keep them anyway, just in secret"

but when you think it through, its just not really possible long term.. and not fair on the snakes..


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## skimpy

So what exactly can we do that is proactive? Petition? What?


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## wohic

I am quite concerned that this has been pulic knowledge and posted on forums for many months now, yet so many people have only just 'heads up' I was signing petitions, writing to my mp ect way back, I guess people just dont bother opening 'boring' sounding threads. 

Oh and if you wade through the Defra site they hope to implement the ban in 2008, at the moment we are still under the old law (and pet fairs have actually been against the law for a good few years now)


----------



## gaz

talking with my German friends,and out there each boa has to have minimum of 1.5metres of headspace and cages up to 3 times that depending on district! lizards have to have 3X their own adult length for a cage space,guess a lot of people simply wouldnt have the space to comply with this if it were introduced here,fortunately UK laws are enforced with less and less rigour every year so i spose we will do as we like,machine gun toting druggies do it so why not us??
regards gaz


----------



## skimpy

wohic said:


> I am quite concerned that this has been pulic knowledge and posted on forums for many months now, yet so many people have only just 'heads up' I was signing petitions, writing to my mp ect way back, I guess people just dont bother opening 'boring' sounding threads.
> 
> Oh and if you wade through the Defra site they hope to implement the ban in 2008, at the moment we are still under the old law (and pet fairs have actually been against the law for a good few years now)


 
I have been a member only a short time, and i havent seen any threads concerning this  .


----------



## candoia aspera

Nerys said:


> ah right... gotchya
> 
> landlords = pain in the butt! tell them that you have changed your collection, for Intermontana Corns ( a dwarf corn species) and for.. umm... dwarf crawl cay boas... both of whom do not exceed a metre in length (well, just about.. but i can't see them measuring them..) unless they have a snake expert on the council, how are they going to prove otherwise?
> 
> its something i have heard many people say tho...
> 
> "If its banned i will keep them anyway, just in secret"
> 
> but when you think it through, its just not really possible long term.. and not fair on the snakes..


 
i was thinking hognose but they'd probably go for the DWA law. ignorance is a hell of a wepon of destruction.
i'll think of a way, thank for the advice


----------



## Dan

bci said:


> you will still manage it, just at a cost. even if the money was raise people opions of reptiles will make sure it's money wrongly spent, if they do make it impossible what will happen to the snakes??


I think you miss-understand the purpose of the money.

You can NOT buy the opinion of the public, it is too fickle to hold. The opinion of the public can ONLY be changed by further socialisation with reptiles. This will only happen if we continue to grow in numbers and over a longer period of time than we have.

The money is for surveys, reports and lawyers.

I have spent the better part of the last decade moaning about the people fighting for us. I tried to involve myself with something i thought was better a long time ago and even then it was shunned by our current "saviours"

Our problem, despite popular opinion, is not that our opponents are that good. It is that we are bloody useless. As has already been mentioned their are too many people who just hide their head in the sand.

In our ranks we have lawyers, printers, bankers, designers, celebrities and politicians. None of these are utilised though.
All it would take is for someone to unite these people and use their abilities for our own goals.

That's just too easy though. Not to mention the people who currently fight for us are to stubborn, proud and ignorant to use the power they have to get this going.

What's the point? Been saying this for years - nothing ever changes.


----------



## candoia aspera

gaz said:


> talking with my German friends,and out there each boa has to have minimum of 1.5metres of headspace and cages up to 3 times that depending on district! lizards have to have 3X their own adult length for a cage space,guess a lot of people simply wouldnt have the space to comply with this if it were introduced here,fortunately UK laws are enforced with less and less rigour every year so i spose we will do as we like,machine gun toting druggies do it so why not us??
> regards gaz


now gaz, it hug a hoodie week isn't it? lol


----------



## gaz

I am quite concerned that this has been pulic knowledge and posted on forums for many months now, yet so many people have only just 'heads up' I was signing petitions, writing to my mp ect way back, I guess people just dont bother opening 'boring' sounding threads. :sad:

watch the numbers on this,how many people look but dont comment,let alone put pen to paper,my MP was chuffed to receive an actual letter when i wrote to him on the matter and went off to put my points to the ministers concerned straight away,however he is new labour too,so dont quite know how much he toes the party line
gaz


----------



## 1949_sam

Nerys said:


> because they honestly believe that an animal is better off dead than in captivity
> 
> i have to say, when i see the state some people keep their animals in, i agree IN SOME CASES..
> 
> N


 
*Yea i know what u mean as i've seen some snakes in petshops ketp in very bad conditions, but what about all the other snakes  they have a right to live.*

*And why don't they do something about all them people who are alive but have no hope of ever being able to do anything for themselfs ie. handicap, people in a vegtable stat, on life support machines, all the people who want to die should be given that choice. *


----------



## wohic

skimpy you are new and just have a couple of snakes, so I would not expect you to go chasing up on the pros and cons, legalitys ect, but anyone who breeds or has a large collection really needs to be 'on the ball' regards legislation etc, a lot of legislation seems to be slipped through quietly with just a few people making decisions for the masses, even local councilers probably will not be aware of the new bill....... its a sad fact that no one really gives a toss unless it directly affects them (in all walks of life)


----------



## gaz

if it was up to me crucifiction would be the minimum penalty for the crime of being a ****wit(apply this to anyone you fancy) 5-6 million executions and this country would begin to shape up..........
PS anyone actually WANTING to be a politician would be first in line


----------



## candoia aspera

reticulatus said:


> I think you miss-understand the purpose of the money.
> 
> You can NOT buy the opinion of the public, it is too fickle to hold. The opinion of the public can ONLY be changed by further socialisation with reptiles. This will only happen if we continue to grow in numbers and over a longer period of time than we have.
> 
> The money is for surveys, reports and lawyers.
> 
> I have spent the better part of the last decade moaning about the people fighting for us. I tried to involve myself with something i thought was better a long time ago and even then it was shunned by our current "saviours"
> 
> Our problem, despite popular opinion, is not that our opponents are that good. It is that we are bloody useless. As has already been mentioned their are too many people who just hide their head in the sand.
> 
> In our ranks we have lawyers, printers, bankers, designers, celebrities and politicians. None of these are utilised though.
> All it would take is for someone to unite these people and use their abilities for our own goals.
> 
> That's just too easy though. Not to mention the people who currently fight for us are to stubborn, proud and ignorant to use the power they have to get this going.
> 
> What's the point? Been saying this for years - nothing ever changes.


i know you couldn't buy the publics opinion, to be honist you never see this in the public eye, we see it because it affects us. you ask jo public, and he/she won't have a god dam clue.
what i was saying (very un elequently) was that what's the point of spending vast ammounts of money when the simple fact of the matter is that courts have preconcieved ideas and will go with that.

prevension is better than a cure, if we were going to fight we've let it fester for too long.


----------



## Nerys

well, you could start by first of all learning about what is actually going on.. looking at the acts that are being passed, looking at who is behind them, looking at how they are fighting..

knowledge is power.. if we don't know what we are up against, how do we know where to combat it?

FOCAS: the animal welfare bill

there is a group in the UK, which has been trying to knit together the different parts of the animal keeping world... called the Federation of Companion Animal Societies, or FOCUS

as focus say:


> FOCAS continues to be surprised and shocked to learn, after nearly five years of debate, how little breeder/keepers and owners of pets/companion animals know about the fundamental content of the Animal Welfare Act 2006. Sadly the government has taken few opportunities to ensure that people are adequately informed. FOCAS has therefore considered it necessary to outline below the main provisions of the Act, the detailed proposals for secondary legislation and the immediate impact of the duty of care. FOCAS has included in the section on secondary legislation details of all the currently known proposals, as it recognises that many animal keepers will keep more than one species. If you know any keepers of pets/companion animals, it is important that they are directed to this site in order that they know how the Act may effect them in the future.


there is an online petition here:

Petition to: Support Pet Keeping.

though IMHO thats going nowhere fast.. siging a petition.. Pftt. what does that actually DO? not a lot in the real world.. i signed it anyway mind you.. you never know.

Julia - unless you get a few people jumping up and down and screaming about it.. then no-one cares no... as i said in the early part of this post.. if you look at post statistics, you often find the most active posters are the most active on non-herp related topics..... 

and yeah. i guess that IS a bit of a dig at a lot of the so called post whores... but.. eh well.. popular is my middle name don't you know!

N


----------



## skimpy

wohic said:


> skimpy you are new and just have a couple of snakes, so I would not expect you to go chasing up on the pros and cons, legalitys ect, but anyone who breeds or has a large collection really needs to be 'on the ball' regards legislation etc, a lot of legislation seems to be slipped through quietly with just a few people making decisions for the masses, even local councilers probably will not be aware of the new bill....... its a sad fact that no one really gives a toss unless it directly affects them (in all walks of life)


 
OK. This is something that can affect all of us. I do only have 2 snakes, but was considering breeding next year, after another couple of purchases. 

So are you saying this is not my concern, because i only have a couple?


----------



## candoia aspera

goes with a quote from jasper carrot "anyone who wants to be a politician should be band from being one for life"


----------



## Dirteewrongen

skimpy said:


> So what exactly can we do that is proactive? Petition? What?


 
Just been asking my self the same question and to be honest I haven't got a clue where to start!

Just some ideas, 
could we compile some factual (evidence?) - well something that can be used as a basis so that we are all confident and know what we're talking about. 

All write letters (with all our facts lol) - not sure who to write them to but I'm sure someone will have some great ideas and it'll only cost us a stamp each.

Make appointments with local Mp's, not sure about everyone elses but ours does make time to listen and does get off his backside (very helpful in the past)

Just basicly harrass everyone lol (Dig's fab at that lol)

As previously said, we could raise a lot of money, I'd rather part with some money than my pets!


----------



## Nerys

no, julia wouldn't have meant that...

tbh.. since november, when you joined, there have been posts on here about the new EU laws, the AWB, the animal transport act.. but, they tend to get few replies and just vanish down the page

dan - i know what you mean... about the inhouse backup (so to speak)

but who else is willing to carry the can? i'm on the fence on that score.. is it a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend ??

personally i would not want to set myself up for being set alight, or having the antis break into my accounts in order to discourage me... you know what i mean...

N


----------



## candoia aspera

Nerys said:


> and yeah. i guess that IS a bit of a dig at a lot of the so called post whores... but.. eh well.. popular is my middle name don't you know!
> 
> N


what the heck is a post whore, someone who just posts and posts???


----------



## skimpy

Dirteewrongen said:


> Just been asking my self the same question and to be honest I haven't got a clue where to start!
> 
> Just some ideas,
> could we compile some factual (evidence?) - well something that can be used as a basis so that we are all confident and know what we're talking about.
> 
> All write letters (with all our facts lol) - not sure who to write them to but I'm sure someone will have some great ideas and it'll only cost us a stamp each.
> 
> Make appointments with local Mp's, not sure about everyone elses but ours does make time to listen and does get off his backside (very helpful in the past)
> 
> Just basicly harrass everyone lol (Dig's fab at that lol)
> 
> As previously said, we could raise a lot of money, I'd rather part with some money than my pets!


 
Good stuff.

This meeting that is supposed to be happening with forum members, why cant that have been arranged to discuss things like this? I would travel a fair distance for something constructive...not just a jaunt.


----------



## Nerys

post whore - yus .. lol

not my terminology tbh... 

N


----------



## wohic

skimpy said:


> OK. This is something that can affect all of us. I do only have 2 snakes, but was considering breeding next year, after another couple of purchases.
> 
> So are you saying this is not my concern, because i only have a couple?


 


*Far far from it* , It is your concern, and every one who owns a reptiles' concern, i was pointing out that you are less likely to be aware of the goings on (did not want you feeling guuilty after my post !) as you are reletivly new.
Every one needs to be pro active.


----------



## ratboy

reticulatus said:


> I have spent the better part of the last decade moaning about the people fighting for us. I tried to involve myself with something i thought was better a long time ago and even then it was shunned by our current "saviours"
> 
> Our problem, despite popular opinion, is not that our opponents are that good. It is that we are bloody useless. As has already been mentioned their are too many people who just hide their head in the sand.
> 
> In our ranks we have lawyers, printers, bankers, designers, celebrities and politicians. None of these are utilised though.
> All it would take is for someone to unite these people and use their abilities for our own goals.
> 
> That's just too easy though. Not to mention the people who currently fight for us are to stubborn, proud and ignorant to use the power they have to get this going.
> 
> What's the point? Been saying this for years - nothing ever changes.


Best chance we ever had was "Reptile Action" ... remember that one Dan ? And look what happened to that !!! ... hounded out of existance by people inside the hobby. NOT a dig at anyone... just a fact.

What's the point ???? Totally agree.


----------



## Dan

Writing letters is great, until you realise that they will just get binned (on the whole), ESPECIALLY if they all say they same thing.
Petitions are ignored, ESPECIALLY online ones, so they are out aswell.

All we are left with is raising money to fund avertising and paperwork to back up our claims so when we go head to head with the idiots we have something to fall back on. 

I would quite happily stand up and have a bash at organising all this. No idea how far i'd get though, i'm not exactly famous for being easy to get on with.


----------



## Nerys

skimpy said:


> Good stuff.
> 
> This meeting that is supposed to be happening with forum members, why cant that have been arranged to discuss things like this? I would travel a fair distance for something constructive...not just a jaunt.


i think people are working on that yes... i know some of the southerners are arranging meetings and so on.. i think so far somerset (julia/wohic) and surrey (ratboy) are being discussed..

there is a thread on LF about it... but i'm not supposed to link to another forum am i? 

errr... ummmmmmmmmm...... tbh i think its too important not to post... so...

Shows Over ? - Livefood UK Forum

its not an advert for LF... just an advert for that thread and the info contained within it..

N


----------



## wohic

so we all just sit back on our arses and when the day comes thay the people in their masks and white coats come to our doors armed with poison todistroy our illegal , and misunderstood collections, only then do we think 'wish I had done something sooner' 

It could happen, how many pit bulls have been distroyed ?


----------



## Nerys

> i'm not exactly famous for being easy to get on with.


:Na_Na_Na_Na:

you and me both eh.. thats half the problem.. to much bloody infighting and not enough out-fighting..

N


----------



## Dan

ratboy said:


> Best chance we ever had was "Reptile Action" ... remember that one Dan ? And look what happened to that !!! ... hounded out of existance by people inside the hobby. NOT a dig at anyone... just a fact.
> 
> What's the point ???? Totally agree.


 
Yep, but it SHOULD be a dig.

I openly stated at the time it would get no where because of the people already "working for us"

That's the problem when you say the same thing for so long - everyone just ignores you after a while.

Self important people will kill this hobby because they are too blind to realise they are failing at every step and need help.


EDIT: Nerys, unfortunately we need a quick scrap inside to sort this mess out, organise our ranks and get to work destroying the idiots who trying to kill us off.


----------



## Issa

Nerys said:


> no, julia wouldn't have meant that...
> 
> tbh.. since november, when you joined, there have been posts on here about the new EU laws, the AWB, the animal transport act.. but, they tend to get few replies and just vanish down the page
> 
> dan - i know what you mean... about the inhouse backup (so to speak)
> 
> but who else is willing to carry the can? i'm on the fence on that score.. is it a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend ??
> 
> personally i would not want to set myself up for being set alight, or having the antis break into my accounts in order to discourage me... you know what i mean...
> 
> N


And there Nerys is the crux of the problem. The antis are quite willing to employ tactics that nobody within the reptile industry will. I only speak for myself here but I WOULDN'T be willing to commit burglary or arson to get my point across regardless of how strongly I felt about it. Unfortunately the kinda people who oppose this kinda thing don't have a concience when it comes to human suffering, as long as their they have their ideals any form of criminal record that goes with it is irrelevant to them.


----------



## 1949_sam

Nerys said:


> well, you could start by first of all learning about what is actually going on.. looking at the acts that are being passed, looking at who is behind them, looking at how they are fighting..
> 
> knowledge is power.. if we don't know what we are up against, how do we know where to combat it?
> 
> FOCAS: the animal welfare bill
> 
> there is a group in the UK, which has been trying to knit together the different parts of the animal keeping world... called the Federation of Companion Animal Societies, or FOCUS
> 
> as focus say:
> 
> 
> there is an online petition here:
> 
> Petition to: Support Pet Keeping.
> 
> though IMHO thats going nowhere fast.. siging a petition.. Pftt. what does that actually DO? not a lot in the real world.. i signed it anyway mind you.. you never know.
> 
> Julia - unless you get a few people jumping up and down and screaming about it.. then no-one cares no... as i said in the early part of this post.. if you look at post statistics, you often find the most active posters are the most active on non-herp related topics.....
> 
> and yeah. i guess that IS a bit of a dig at a lot of the so called post whores... but.. eh well.. popular is my middle name don't you know!
> 
> N


 
*I've signed it too? But your right we all need to read up on it and to dooo something as it's not fair on the animals or any of us?*


----------



## Pauline

What we need is to get the Media on our side. Newspapers like the Sunday Express and the Yorkshire Post are 2 that are excellent at getting results. Anyone know anybody that works for either paper and keeps reptiles themselves?


----------



## Nerys

its not just reptiles tbh, its all exotics...

N


----------



## ratboy

Issa said:


> The antis are quite willing to employ tactics that nobody within the reptile industry will.


The reptile industry has its fair share of less than nice people


----------



## candoia aspera

Nerys said:


> its not just reptiles tbh, its all exotics...
> 
> N


like little fishes and stuff????


----------



## Issa

But does that make it right to use the same strong arm tactics?


----------



## wohic

The media might be an option, but facts would have to be 100% right.
there must be many many exotics owners that are totally in the dark about the plans afoot.
Of course the flip side to media attention is the antis huffing and puffing in public , spouting their lies about reptiles all dieing with in a year and so on.


----------



## 1949_sam

Issa said:


> But does that make it right to use the same strong arm tactics?


*Yea i know what u mean? I want to help in any way i can, but at the same time i also have kids and don't want to get in to deep that i'll end up in prison? As then how would that help anyone  *


----------



## Nerys

gerbils, hamsters, rabbits, guinea pigs, skunks, ferrets, budgies, parrots..

technically as non-natives, they are all exotic animals..

N


----------



## candoia aspera

what sort of panicky reactions happened when that berm was found dead, i nearly had a fight with someone at work because of it, media are more powerful than govenments.


----------



## candoia aspera

Nerys said:


> gerbils, hamsters, rabbits, guinea pigs, skunks, ferrets, budgies, parrots..
> 
> technically as non-natives, they are all exotic animals..
> 
> N


but as cute and cuddly they won't be band, it's like leaglising the alternative KKK for animals if they work it like that :-x


----------



## 1949_sam

wohic said:


> The media might be an option, but facts would have to be 100% right.
> there must be many many exotics owners that are totally in the dark about the plans afoot.
> Of course the flip side to media attention is the antis huffing and puffing in public , spouting their lies about reptiles all dieing with in a year and so on.


*Yea that would be a good start but how would we do something like that i mean were would we all start? (i'm gonna let everyone i know, know about this?) As your right they are probley in the dark aswell.*


----------



## Nerys

goes to show too, how interested people are, when the "new smiley thread" gets 99 replies and 530+ views and this one 96 replies and 430+ views..

much more important to talk about the emoticons.. than actually keeping the animals in the first place..

*doh*

N


----------



## wohic

bci said:


> but as cute and cuddly they won't be band, it's like leaglising the alternative KKK for animals if they work it like that :-x


 
the ultimate plan is to ban all companion animals, so errr yes they could just as easily be banned.


----------



## candoia aspera

not often i go off topic side, is that where you're talking about?


----------



## ratboy

wohic said:


> spouting their lies about reptiles all dieing with in a year and so on.


That one was actually the RSPCA Julia. I brought it up at a conference and the inspector was not even aware that they had written it ( or to be more accurate, it was in a report that they had comissioned ). Even he admitted it was clearly wrong... but, the pen is mightier than the sword etc.

One thing that could be done is to organise series of awareness days where no animals are sold and animals that can be kept 100% properly in hall conditions could be displayed to the public to show just how easy it actually is to keep them ... and of course invite the press.

I am of course ONLY talking animals that should be there and can be kept beyond reproach for the day.


----------



## Nerys

bci said:


> but as cute and cuddly they won't be band, it's like leaglising the alternative KKK for animals if they work it like that :-x


and that, is where you are wrong!

AA and co, want to ban ALL companion animals.. we need to fight as animals keepers, not just reptile keepers.. we need ALL pet owners to get involved really..

they've already made it very very hard for any new skunk owners from this year on.. and infact... if you follow the letter on the law to its full extent, you can no longer castrate a house-cat without risking a jail sentance

N


----------



## candoia aspera

wohic said:


> the ultimate plan is to ban all companion animals, so errr yes they could just as easily be banned.


 
dogs, cats?? isn't it out right, human right to be able to choose what we do, if it be keeping snakes ect... what has happened to our right to choose????


----------



## wohic

:bash: & :2wallbang: seem appropriate


----------



## 1949_sam

Nerys said:


> goes to show too, how interested people are, when the "new smiley thread" gets 99 replies and 530+ views and this one 96 replies and 430+ views..
> 
> much more important to talk about the emoticons.. than actually keeping the animals in the first place..
> 
> *doh*
> 
> N


*Yea i know what u mean hon :-x the more people we have on our side the better. And i'm really scared now as i don't want my pets killed as they are very much loved and very well cared for  *


----------



## candoia aspera

Nerys said:


> ... if you follow the letter on the law to its full extent, you can no longer castrate a house-cat without risking a jail sentance
> 
> N


RSPCA would be fu*ked then, i'm gonna do some mega reading


----------



## ratboy

Nerys said:


> goes to show too, how interested people are, when the "new smiley thread" gets 99 replies and 530+ views and this one 96 replies and 430+ views..


We are the sensationalistic saddos who have pointless threads about stuff that will never happen.


----------



## candoia aspera

wohic said:


> :bash: & :2wallbang: seem appropriate


too right


----------



## wohic

bci said:


> dogs, cats?? isn't it out right, human right to be able to choose what we do, if it be keeping snakes ect... what has happened to our right to choose????


 
our only rights are within the law, so they change the law in order to revoke our rights.


----------



## candoia aspera

wohic said:


> our only rights are within the law, so they change the law in order to revoke our rights.


laws are no longer there to protect but there to constrict (no pun intended):-x


----------



## 1949_sam

Nerys said:


> and that, is where you are wrong!
> 
> AA and co, want to ban ALL companion animals.. we need to fight as animals keepers, not just reptile keepers.. we need ALL pet owners to get involved really..
> 
> they've already made it very very hard for any new skunk owners from this year on.. and infact... if you follow the letter on the law to its full extent, you can no longer castrate a house-cat without risking a jail sentance
> 
> N


*Wow i can't belive that :-x i'm just glad my cats have already been castrated?*

*And your right WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING?*


----------



## bite_me

Where is the bit on castration? That is the worst idea I have ever heard, how many unwanted litters and stray cats is that going to give this country?


----------



## Nerys

bci said:


> not often i go off topic side, is that where you're talking about?


yes. we are talking about laws that are being passed, that will ultimately lead the loss of many pet species..

the ball has to start somewhere... the question is.. how do you stop it?

N


----------



## 1949_sam

Nerys said:


> yes. we are talking about laws that are being passed, that will ultimately lead the loss of many pet species..
> 
> the ball has to start somewhere... the question is.. how do you stop it?
> 
> N


*Thats a very good point. How do we stop it?*


----------



## JAM3S

iv only had my snake since october and have signed any petitions that have been linked to the forum but to be honest i find myself getting lost in a bombardment of information and a huge problem i didnt even know existed untill a few months back. if money is a major problem then i would happily donate what i could or maybe volunteer my time to help out with displays to raise public awareness of reptiles/animals. im going to take the time to learn more about this and maybe i could write to/arrange to see my local MP. i think there are alot of ppl that just dont know where to start.


----------



## candoia aspera

bite_me said:


> Where is the bit on castration? That is the worst idea I have ever heard, how many unwanted litters and stray cats is that going to give this country?


it's not often poloticians think is it?


----------



## ratboy

Nerys said:


> yes. we are talking about laws that are being passed, that will ultimately lead the loss of many pet species..
> 
> the ball has to start somewhere... the question is.. how do you stop it?
> 
> N


European court of human rights.... get the laws changed.


----------



## candoia aspera

JAM3S said:


> iv only had my snake since october and have signed any petitions that have been linked to the forum but to be honest i find myself getting lost in a bombardment of information and a huge problem i didnt even know existed untill a few months back. if money is a major problem then i would happily donate what i could or maybe volunteer my time to help out with displays to raise public awareness of reptiles/animals. im going to take the time to learn more about this and maybe i could write to/arrange to see my local MP. i think there are alot of ppl that just dont know where to start.


trouble with donating money is that everyone has an opinion on how it should be spent, great if it's done right/ very bad if done wrong.


----------



## candoia aspera

ratboy said:


> European court of human rights.... get the laws changed.


well it does infringe on human rights to think and do. too right


----------



## Nerys

the cat one... if you argue it, counts as mutilation -

*Mutilations*

This section outlines circumstances in which a person commits an offence by carrying out a ‘prohibited’ procedure. This includes circumstances where the owner, who is responsible for the animal, allows another person to carry out a prohibited procedure on the animal
 References in this section to the carrying out of a ‘prohibited’ procedure on an animal are to the carrying out of a procedure which involves interference with the sensitive tissues or bone structure of the animal, otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment
a cat kept indoors, would not need to be castrated, as its not going to adding to the population (therefore castrating is not for the good of the species) and the fact it may spray your house, is your problem, not the cats problem.. so it would not be for "medical" reasons... 

so, chopping its nuts off, would count as interferance with the sensitive tissues..otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment... and therefore a mutilation.. and therefore not allowed.

N


----------



## ratboy

bci said:


> well it does infringe on human rights to think and do. too right


And given that we are probably the most restrictive country in the EU when it comes to pet keeping, we might even get a fair hearing.


----------



## pauln

wohic said:


> The media might be an option, but facts would have to be 100% right.
> there must be many many exotics owners that are totally in the dark about the plans afoot.
> Of course the flip side to media attention is the antis huffing and puffing in public , spouting their lies about reptiles all dieing with in a year and so on.


I know a writer on the Sunday Mail, but I wouldn't know where to start with a media campaign, I guess it would be to show that this is the thin end of the wedge and that all pet owners could be affected.


----------



## ratboy

Nerys said:


> so, chopping its nuts off, would count as interferance with the sensitive tissues..otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment... and therefore a mutilation.. and therefore not allowed.
> 
> N


There is also the issue of being allowed to show natural behaviour. It is the natural behaviour of a male cat to spray it's territory but you are removing that by castrating it.

It is also natural behaviour for snakes to eat live food though.


----------



## candoia aspera

Nerys said:


> the cat one... if you argue it, counts as mutilation -
> 
> *Mutilations*
> 
> This section outlines circumstances in which a person commits an offence by carrying out a ‘prohibited’ procedure. This includes circumstances where the owner, who is responsible for the animal, allows another person to carry out a prohibited procedure on the animal
> References in this section to the carrying out of a ‘prohibited’ procedure on an animal are to the carrying out of a procedure which involves interference with the sensitive tissues or bone structure of the animal, otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment
> a cat kept indoors, would not need to be castrated, as its not going to adding to the population (therefore castrating is not for the good of the species) and the fact it may spray your house, is your problem, not the cats problem.. so it would not be for "medical" reasons...
> 
> so, chopping its nuts off, would count as interferance with the sensitive tissues..otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment... and therefore a mutilation.. and therefore not allowed.
> 
> N


that's just nuts!!!!


----------



## Nerys

BCI - or the lack of nuts that is.. !

its how you read the law too...

at the moment, you can be prosecuted for live feeding a mouse to a snake...

under the new AWB you need to conform to the Duty of Care

 You MUST be able to provide the following for your pet/companion animal:
Fresh food and water
an environment appropriate to the species which avoids discomfort to the animal. This means protection from extremes of temperature, light, draughts and humidity
prevent pain, injury, suffering and disease by seeking veterinary advice as soon as it becomes necessary. This will include vaccination for some species.
sufficient space & proper facilities. This means a hutch, cage vivarium or aquarium large enough for the species, including ‘growing room’. Appropriate stimuli within the living area. Also, where appropriate, company of its own kind, in order that it can express normal behaviour.
protect your animal from fear and distress to avoid mental suffering. For example, excessive noise, fireworks, or housing your animal in view of predators.
ALL species kept by YOU must be kept, in a way, which complies with the ‘duty of care’


now, it can be argued, that feeding a snake a dead defrosted mouse, is not letting it express its natural behavoiur... so if you had a good enough team working against you, you could possibly get prosectued for that...


which would take us to a situation where you can get done for not feeding a live mouse - as its not letting them express natural behaviour.. but you can also get done for live feeding, as its causing un necessary suffering.. also i guess its not letting the mouse exhibit its natural bahaviour (ie running away)


they are trying to make it so hard to keep them and be legal, that eventually people will stop keeping them, as its too much hassle.. 


oh.. the AA guys define ALL pet animals as exotic, if they are non native to the UK.. thats hamsters, budgies, rabbits, as well as snakes and lizards...


N


----------



## bite_me

Most cats aren't indoor cats though and you would have a bloody job keeping them in if there is another horny cat around, we did, Alya escaped for all of 10 minutes and had kittens from 3 different dads, now one of the boys wants to do the deed when she's in heat and if this is right we can't do anything about it except keep Ayla on her own in the kitchen which is cruel to her.


----------



## candoia aspera

i feel i'm going to have plenty bed time reading


----------



## Nerys

and here is the one that totally screws people who keep snakes in racks

*sufficient space & proper facilities. This means a hutch, cage vivarium or aquarium large enough for the species, including ‘growing room’. Appropriate stimuli within the living area

*a rack has neither enough space OR enough facilites.

when many royals/corns etc are kept in shallow trays, with nothing bar newspaper, a hide and a water bowl.. how ANYONE can fit that into the new AWB regulations is beyond me.

you simply will not be able to use racks anymore.. they will NOT provide what a court would see as enough space or enough facilitites... whether they do well in racks is NOT the issue.. the court will not care how does best in which box, they will only know that it doens't meet regulations and therefore would be better confiscated and killed.

N

Nerys


----------



## Nerys

bite_me said:


> Most cats aren't indoor cats though and you would have a bloody job keeping them in if there is another horny cat around, we did, Alya escaped for all of 10 minutes and had kittens from 3 different dads, now one of the boys wants to do the deed when she's in heat and if this is right we can't do anything about it except keep Ayla on her own in the kitchen which is cruel to her.


"most cats"

i take it you don't mean any of the many 1000's of cattery cats up and down the UK ?

i'm not talking moggies, but pedigree "blood" cats..

not to mention the 1000's of people who have cats in flats... and cats in innercity's who are kept indoors all the time.

the antis would say, if you cannot keep ayla without being a) cruel to her or b) mutilating her.. then she would be better off dead.. 

thats not the way i see it.. but i am using their arguement against you as an example.. they really do think animals are better of dead than being kept in their version of unfair circumstances..

(do you have car called Jondelar too?)

N


----------



## CaseyM

We need to make the 'cant see whats infront of their own eyes and happy to be lead by the hand' politicians and general public realise that the Antis ARE NOT GOING TO STOP AT REPTILES they want ALL companion animals banned and banned means DEAD if you happen to be a domestic animal!!

Sit back and imagine the public outcry when they realise THEY could be facing putting down Rover the Labrador for no reason other than the Antis decided that ANIMALS ARE BETTER OFF DEAD THAN IN CAPTIVITY!!!

I firmly believe that if we can make the general dog cat and hamster keeping public believe that they are the next target (as they are) then we will have an easier fight as who will let the Antis move an inch in the full on glare of the public eye!!

You CANNOT sit there and say it will never happen!! For gods sake they were never going to be able to ban foxhunting - THEY DID!!

You CANNOT sit there and say "they'll take my animals over my dead body ill keep them illegally if i have to" what are you going to do for food, equipment and vets treatment when the sale of everything we need to keep our animals is banned.

We need to do something and do it fast otherwise as Dan says our next move will be saving up to move abroad......


----------



## bite_me

Ok, I see your point, didn't take into account inner city but cattery cats (unless on their hols) aren't companion animals as they would see it.

We do let her out when we can supervise but otherwise we might end up with more kittens, this time by the son so we keep an eye on them. But he needs doing as he's become very nervous and I think he is feeling threatened like an inferior tom cat, think castration would be better for him but I know that's not how the 'better off dead' crowd would see it.

(No we don't, I only got to name her lol)


----------



## bite_me

CaseyM said:


> I firmly believe that if we can make the general dog cat and hamster keeping public believe that they are the next target (as they are) then we will have an easier fight as who will let the Antis move an inch in the full on glare of the public eye!!


I am one of the hamster owners and I can see this will spiral out of control if it isn't stopped now and I am willing to do anything reasonable (and within the law) to stop it!


----------



## CaseyM

Also why is this not a sticky topic???????

We have a sticky topic about when a forum member will be back on off topic for gods sake but not on the threat to our hobby and all our animals in general??!!!

If reptile keeping ends up banned there wont be any point in this forum!!


*Bangs head off desk*


----------



## skimpy

CaseyM said:


> Also why is this not a sticky topic???????
> 
> We have a sticky topic about when a forum member will be back on off topic for gods sake but not on the threat to our hobby and all our animals in general??!!!
> 
> If reptile keeping ends up banned there wont be any point in this forum!!
> 
> 
> *Bangs head off desk*


I called for a sticky around the 4th page, i think. maybe i deleted it. It is good for newer keepers to see that things like this are ongoing. Nice to get a heads up ya know?


----------



## spider_mad

Having all this being said the govt in UK has always tried to ban anything that the public find remotely related to lesure. The UK govt want us to be in a utilitarian communist style state where you cant do anything whatsoever. FOr hundreds of years govt has banned various leisure activities but still continued underground until the law changed back or still remained under ground. I found out a few bits in a lecture on leisure history on the law and legislation side of things. At the end of the day they will try stop this but will fail cos if people want something they will find a way around it and. All the societies need to bang heads together such as BHS, IHS and BTS, etc together as the governing bodies to defend the keeping of animals in general not just the exotics.


----------



## peaches

The media and the European court is what I see as the only way forward - yet all cost.

Where is the public face of pet keeping? Surely some of these wildlife presenters on telly have a passion to keep these animals, why can't they stand up about this?

Why?? well maybe we all concerned about animal rights and the consequences (I'll answer my own question lol)

Local elections soon, ah well time to start bombarding the next mp down here, will try a different tact this time. :bash:


----------



## royalpython

I would argue the point for racks tbh. You get some racks bigger than actual viv's, the most important aspect of a rack is floor space, but clearly if your snake is arboreal, then a rack providing floor space alone is hardly ideal for the species in question. A rack will provide enough growing room if you have one large enough, but this is EXACTLY the same situation if you provide a vivarium which is too small... it works both ways.

I am obviously gutted about the whole situation with regards to banning all animals.. the reason i post little about it is because i really have not much input on the subject, other than to say... it's balls!


----------



## wohic

people are trying spider mad, but it is the hobbiests that are either unaware or blind to the facts.
Its all very well having the people at the top such as chris newman and Nils giving support, having meeting etc but if there is no backing from down the line, nothing will be done, we need to rally the little people in to one large voice, then perhaps it will be heard.


----------



## Nerys

spider_mad said:


> Having all this being said the govt in UK has always tried to ban anything that the public find remotely related to lesure. The UK govt want us to be in a utilitarian communist style state where you cant do anything whatsoever. FOr hundreds of years govt has banned various leisure activities but still continued underground until the law changed back or still remained under ground. I found out a few bits in a lecture on leisure history on the law and legislation side of things. At the end of the day they will try stop this but will fail cos if people want something they will find a way around it and. All the societies need to bang heads together such as BHS, IHS and BTS, etc together as the governing bodies to defend the keeping of animals in general not just the exotics.


thats what focus have been trying to do... and not getting far enough..

i bet 85% of the people on this forum are not even members of the IHS... infact i wouldnot mind betting half of the people on here would not even name the three national groups in the UK

N


----------



## ratboy

CaseyM said:


> Also why is this not a sticky topic???????
> 
> We have a sticky topic about when a forum member will be back on off topic for gods sake but not on the threat to our hobby and all our animals in general??!!!
> 
> If reptile keeping ends up banned there wont be any point in this forum!!
> 
> 
> *Bangs head off desk*


From reading the threads in general herp chat, I think a lot of the moderators are in the "It will never happen" camp.


----------



## wohic

*brainwave.......... if all reptile owners had to me a member of the IHS or FBH so making them registered keepers, perhaps the powers that be would be more comfortable with the whole exotics issue ? 
I dont know, perhaps its a daft Idea.


----------



## mark elliott

i don't care who these people are, i will continue to buy and keep snakes how and when i see fit and am prepared to pay any consequences for my actions but am also prepared to take any kind of action that i have to to fight these people and maybe we all should do something to stop these people from taking things that we love doing. this really f***s me off just who the hell do they think they are


----------



## spider_mad

Nerys said:


> thats what focus have been trying to do... and not getting far enough..
> 
> i bet 85% of the people on this forum are not even members of the IHS... infact i wouldnot mind betting half of the people on here would not even name the three national groups in the UK
> 
> N


That is a good point Im kind of biased on my points really as im member of BTS (never got round to joining IHS) and always try to get involved in the activites with support. Out of interest and sort of a side topic but not wanting to side track too much, how many people on the forum are member of a society? I hope something can be worked out and have some solid info for support to go against them. Its quite a hard area to orchastrate and organise though so can see the complications. Well I support anything to help promote the allowance to keep animals as we should rightly have.


----------



## mark elliott

wohic said:


> *brainwave.......... if all reptile owners had to me a member of the IHS or FBH so making them registered keepers, perhaps the powers that be would be more comfortable with the whole exotics issue ?
> I dont know, perhaps its a daft Idea.


any idea is better than none so maybe we should all come up with some and put them together


----------



## Dan

Okie dokie.

Folks, please stand by for further notice on what you can do to help.


----------



## mark elliott

reticulatus said:


> Okie dokie.
> 
> Folks, please stand by for further notice on what you can do to help.


whatever it takes and the sooner the better


----------



## gaz

its panning out much the same as the hunting with dogs bill,infighting,then realisation that we are in the shit,then get together and fight,followed by huge demonstrations(we managed 450,000 people on the streets of London) bet reptiles wont manage that,doesnt matter 'cos it was ignored anyway,then long legal battles in parliament followed by appeal to European Parliament all failed on all counts,so handguns,auto rifles,hunting with hounds and now pets,and in all the demonstartions by the ban it brigade the same faces all the time,professional agitators,trouble is that the people involved with the banned or to be banned activities are to busy participating in their chosen sport/hobby while the banners are professional full time activists with good pay,seriously committed support and lots of finance,they dont spend five minutes bunging up some crap on a tiny forum in a tiny little country,they are hobb nobbing with governments,bribing(£1,000,000to new labour) and putting pressure on politician through the press,tv etc 24 hours a day,so unless we can match that committment...............i will leave it to your collective imaginations what sort of country we will be living in ten years from now,personally i think i shall just escape from it,apart from drinking beer,not one activity i pursue is not under attack from some quarter,I may be British but I'm afraid the government is not.
G


----------



## spider_mad

wohic said:


> *brainwave.......... if all reptile owners had to me a member of the IHS or FBH so making them registered keepers, perhaps the powers that be would be more comfortable with the whole exotics issue ?
> I dont know, perhaps its a daft Idea.


Its something to consider.
I may email this thread to BTS comittee (if thats ok mods) and see what they think the best thing to do. Fair enough they are more down to spiders and creepy crawlies but this can affect BTS just as anyone who keeps animals.


----------



## Nerys

np.. just tell me which direction to go *boom* into.. 

julia - problem with that is, not all the reptile keepers are in speaking terms with things like the FBH IHS and so on..

N


----------



## gaz

wohic said:


> *brainwave.......... if all reptile owners had to me a member of the IHS or FBH so making them registered keepers, perhaps the powers that be would be more comfortable with the whole exotics issue ?
> I dont know, perhaps its a daft Idea.


 
volontary regulation is the first step towards an outright ban,this is proven over and over,fight tooth and nail is the only way to go
regards gaz
not being critical,just seen it before


----------



## CaseyM

gaz said:


> its panning out much the same as the hunting with dogs bill,infighting,then realisation that we are in the shit,then get together and fight,followed by huge demonstrations(we managed 450,000 people on the streets of London) bet reptiles wont manage that,doesnt matter 'cos it was ignored anyway,then long legal battles in parliament followed by appeal to European Parliament all failed on all counts,so handguns,auto rifles,hunting with hounds and now pets,and in all the demonstartions by the ban it brigade the same faces all the time,professional agitators,trouble is that the people involved with the banned or to be banned activities are to busy participating in their chosen sport/hobby while the banners are professional full time activists with good pay,seriously committed support and lots of finance,they dont spend five minutes bunging up some crap on a tiny forum in a tiny little country,they are hobb nobbing with governments,bribing(£1,000,000to new labour) and putting pressure on politician through the press,tv etc 24 hours a day,so unless we can match that committment...............i will leave it to your collective imaginations what sort of country we will be living in ten years from now,personally i think i shall just escape from it,apart from drinking beer,not one activity i pursue is not under attack from some quarter,I may be British but I'm afraid the government is not.
> G


 
This is why i think we HAVE to look at the bigger picture - put aside the reptile part just now and make the pet keeping members of public realise it not just us "freaks and weirdos who keep slimey nasty snakes" but every single person in Britian who has any animal thats a target, perhaps not as an immedate target as reptile keepers are but still a target none the less.

If you make enough noise, someone will hear it.


----------



## CaseyM

ratboy said:


> From reading the threads in general herp chat, I think a lot of the moderators are in the "It will never happen" camp.


 
Having worked in the equestrian world I could give you a list of names off the top of my head of people who swore blind to me that fox hunting would never be banned and it was a stir up by "nowt but a bunch of bunny hugging hippies with too much time on their hands"

DAMN IT WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE MAKE THIS A STICKY TOPIC BEFORE MY BLOOD PRESSURE GETS ANY HIGHER!! :-x


----------



## royalpython

Fox hunting is slightly different. In some respect, we really don't need to be hunting animals using dog's, and killing them. At least in our hobby we strive to keep them alive, and enjoy their company. If these activists use force like killing the pets as soon as we speak up... just to prove a point.. then we really do need an Arnold Swarchenegger in the reptile enthusiast world so he can hunt them down and kill them and their families... just to prove a point... scum ************************* (just every single swear word you can imagine is meant to fit in there!!)

I'm not very articulate, and would be a useless speaker, but i would like to back up any groups, and at the same time.. would rather make sure my collection of animals stay alive.


----------



## tigger79

HHhhhhhhhmmm very interesting read, well with all these changes, what they gonna do about the rescue centres, cos all people are going to do is hand there reptiles to these people as they dont wanna get prosecuted, and the rescue centres will then face the hassle of dealing with the animals.



ratboy said:


> European court of human rights.... get the laws changed.


I agree we should take parliment to the European Court of Human Rights. its them that agree these laws and bow down to the pressure of the activists.

What about our right as a human being, to keep what ever animal we want as long as we know how to and do it correctly.


----------



## bite_me

I have to admit that I am not a registered member of any society nor do I have any idea what the initials stand for but i've only had my snake for 3 weeks, can I be forgiven?


----------



## ratboy

bite_me said:


> I have to admit that I am not a registered member of any society nor do I have any idea what the initials stand for but i've only had my snake for 3 weeks, can I be forgiven?


IHS = International Herpetological Society
BHS = British Herpetological Society
FBH = Federation of British Herpetologists

Now don't let it happen again  :lol2:


----------



## bite_me

Yes sir *gives self a good caning* lol


----------



## royalpython

bite me.. i'm worse... i wouldn't entirely blame the public for not being members of any animal society.. i've owned 3 of my royals for around 5 years... and until i started using these forums (about 5 months ago), i had no knowledge of what was going on behind closed doors. I was under the impression everything was happy and jolly, and owning a pet was just like having a relative living in your house... a member of the family.


----------



## candoia aspera

tigger79 said:


> HHhhhhhhhmmm very interesting read, well with all these changes, what they gonna do about the rescue centres, cos all people are going to do is hand there reptiles to these people as they dont wanna get prosecuted, and the rescue centres will then face the hassle of dealing with the animals.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree we should take parliment to the European Court of Human Rights. its them that agree these laws and bow down to the pressure of the activists.
> 
> 
> What about our right as a human being, to keep what ever animal we want as long as we know how to and do it correctly.


my opinion exactly


----------



## CaseyM

royalpython said:


> Fox hunting is slightly different. In some respect, we really don't need to be hunting animals using dog's, and killing them. At least in our hobby we strive to keep them alive, and enjoy their company. If these activists use force like killing the pets as soon as we speak up... just to prove a point.. then we really do need an Arnold Swarchenegger in the reptile enthusiast world so he can hunt them down and kill them and their families... just to prove a point... scum ************************* (just every single swear word you can imagine is meant to fit in there!!)
> 
> I'm not very articulate, and would be a useless speaker, but i would like to back up any groups, and at the same time.. would rather make sure my collection of animals stay alive.


 
Fox hunting is entirely different, my only comparision between the two is that the majority of people in fox hunting sat in the "It'll never happen" camp until it was too late - fox hunting is now banned.

I wasnt in any way trying to say that hunting foxes and keeping reptiles is similar or the same, some peoples attitudes to the imminent ban of their hobby/liveihood is the same now as it was in fox hunting when that was facing the same fate as reptile keeping is, thats all.


----------



## royalpython

perhaps if animal shops, etc had great knowledge on the matter, it would raise public opinion further... but at the same time a shop might end up losing business if the buyers realise the hobby might be closed in x amount of years...


----------



## bite_me

royalpython said:


> bite me.. i'm worse... i wouldn't entirely blame the public for not being members of any animal society.. i've owned 3 of my royals for around 5 years... and until i started using these forums (about 5 months ago), i had no knowledge of what was going on behind closed doors. I was under the impression everything was happy and jolly, and owning a pet was just like having a relative living in your house... a member of the family.


That's how I think of my animals, part of the family, they are dependent on me therefore they are my babies and I don't care what anyone says, killing them because keeping them is against your personal beliefs is more cruel than keeping them perfectly happy and healthy in a loving home.


----------



## royalpython

CaseyM said:


> Fox hunting is entirely different, my only comparision between the two is that the majority of people in fox hunting sat in the "It'll never happen" camp until it was too late - fox hunting is now banned.
> 
> I wasnt in any way trying to say that hunting foxes and keeping reptiles is similar or the same, some peoples attitudes to the imminent ban of their hobby/liveihood is the same now as it was in fox hunting when that was facing the same fate as reptile keeping is, thats all.


oh don't worry  wasn't meaning anything nasty  .. if anything, i feel that banning fox hunting was a good thing... at least we have moral's... fox hunter's have no respect for wildlife at all (i'd bet). I understand what you're meaning, and to sum it up... it's pretty darn sh*t eh!


----------



## wohic

nerys........ Yup I can see that being an issue (rather like having to be beholdent to the RSPCA) twas just a 'grasp at straws'
Gaz. i am not on about self regulation...... just being a registered owner.


----------



## candoia aspera

royalpython said:


> perhaps if animal shops, etc had great knowledge on the matter, it would raise public opinion further... but at the same time a shop might end up losing business if the buyers realise the hobby might be closed in x amount of years...


notice board in pet shops to post things that affect snake owners are a very good idea, unfortunatly it won't make them money. i think i just persuaded myself out of it


----------



## captaincaveman

Its funny really, the talk of banning reptiles has been going on for at least 15years that i know about, theres nothing been written to say that the keeping of reptiles is ever going to be banned, i know thats what the rspca want but that doesn't mean it will


----------



## Nerys

> fox hunter's have no respect for wildlife at all (i'd bet)


bites tongue VERY hard... 

i wouldn't say that no... 

N


----------



## wohic

captaincaveman said:


> Its funny really, the talk of banning reptiles has been going on for at least 15years that i know about, theres nothing been written to say that the keeping of reptiles is ever going to be banned, i know thats what the rspca want but that doesn't mean it will


 
I wonder how many foxhunters said that, people with pitbulls also may have said the same thing.

It is written that AR want the complete and total end to companion animals.


----------



## ratboy

I have been going to shows in the UK now for the last four years. Every show, every year there is an FBH table with leaflets telling people that their hobby is in danger. This message has been 'advertised' year in and year out.

People just choose not to listen... it would spoil a good day out at the show. I suspect that the same would happen in pet shops. People go there to buy new pets or things for the pets they already keep... not to find out they are wasting their time.


----------



## bite_me

Nerys said:


> bites tongue VERY hard...
> 
> i wouldn't say that no...
> 
> N


It's only a difference of opinion Nerys, breath, breath lol.

Personally I am against fox hunting but I don't think all hunters disrespect wildlife as a given.


----------



## CaseyM

royalpython said:


> oh don't worry  wasn't meaning anything nasty  .. if anything, i feel that banning fox hunting was a good thing... at least we have moral's... fox hunter's have no respect for wildlife at all (i'd bet). I understand what you're meaning, and to sum it up... it's pretty darn sh*t eh!


 
*Digs finger nails into desk*

I'd say definately not right to that but we're not on about fox hunting here, that debate has gone on for years and goes nowhere.


----------



## Dizaster66

I think someone has already said it , but the legislation is not aimed at Reptiles specifically but at ALL animals.
The reasons , I beleive, that Reptile keepers are seeming to be targeted are.

1) 90% of the UK population would say ....eeeee yucky slimey ...blah blah blah.
2) 90% of the UK population say ........awwwww look a lovely kitten / puppy ....cooo cooo cooo

What can we do to change peoples minds about out charge's ??

On a supporting note , Octover 16th or 21st (depending on which web site you look at) is Reptile Awerness Day :smile:


----------



## royalpython

> I have been going to shows in the UK now for the last four years. Every show, every year there is an FBH table with leaflets telling people that their hobby is in danger. This message has been 'advertised' year in and year out.
> 
> People just choose not to listen... it would spoil a good day out at the show. I suspect that the same would happen in pet shops. People go there to buy new pets or things for the pets they already keep... not to find out they are wasting their time.


Yup... if there was only a way to see past wasting time though... something a little more creative.. any ideas? lol. 

Would it make the hobby stronger to the government by creating a tax return on any breeding animal, would it not make it more appealing for goverment to relax view's on banning animals as a whole? I'd rather pay taxes on reptile breeding than have the entire hobby abolished.. if they made it mandatory, surely between every reptile owner in the uk alone, the government would secure more tax funds than any animal activist would?


----------



## wohic

I think we need a couple of well known faces to front us (rather like the AR have the likes of Carla lane, heather mills etc)


----------



## captaincaveman

The way i see it is if a ban happens it happens, the chances of actually stopping it is unlikely if it does anyway, I think people are adding one add one and getting 25 anyway. Nothing has ever been said by government on this, its sort of gone, stopping reptile shows therefore in the future they will turn on shops, then keepers but this isn't based on anything factual


----------



## CBR1100XX

As requested I have made this a sticky.


----------



## tigger79

yay we have sticky, thanks Fazer


----------



## CaseyM

captaincaveman said:


> The way i see it is if a ban happens it happens, the chances of actually stopping it is unlikely if it does anyway, I think people are adding one add one and getting 25 anyway. Nothing has ever been said by government on this, its sort of gone, stopping reptile shows therefore in the future they will turn on shops, then keepers but this isn't based on anything factual


I think your sandcastle is going to cave in if you dont go stick your head back under it....


----------



## captaincaveman

CaseyM said:


> I think your sandcastle is going to cave in if you dont go stick your head back under it....


 
with respect, ive seen this same conversation for nearly two decades, can you point me to any official facts that show the government plan to abolish keeping exotics?


----------



## Nerys

captaincaveman said:


> but this isn't based on anything factual


Mmmmmmmmmmm...

thats another one for the "head in the sand" camp then"

see, this is partly why the hobby could fail.. to many people with attitudes like that..

N


----------



## ratboy

Maybe the "Why are we being targetted ?" angle would be the one to go for.

If we could actually get a public admission that Dogs and Cats are on the list of targets then job done... the dog and cat owners would presumably lend us their support. If it is denied that cats and dogs are next, then they could be put on the spot as to why Dogs and Cats make better pets than our animals. In short... they need to be made to explain their actions so that people get the oppertunity to see through it.


----------



## bite_me

captaincaveman said:


> The way i see it is if a ban happens it happens, the chances of actually stopping it is unlikely if it does anyway, I think people are adding one add one and getting 25 anyway. Nothing has ever been said by government on this, its sort of gone, stopping reptile shows therefore in the future they will turn on shops, then keepers but this isn't based on anything factual


If the government haven't said anything yet then if we start taking action now we will be ahead when they do.


----------



## captaincaveman

Nerys said:


> Mmmmmmmmmmm...
> 
> thats another one for the "head in the sand" camp then"
> 
> see, this is partly why the hobby could fail.. to many people with attitudes like that..
> 
> N


 
blunt as ever i see:lol2: Its my opinion thats all, ive just seen it happen too many times and i'll worry about it when it becomes more than just a possibility. Its not about having my head in the sand, more as waiting till he treat is actally real before standing up to be counted


----------



## wohic

captaincaveman said:


> The way i see it is if a ban happens it happens, the chances of actually stopping it is unlikely if it does anyway, I think people are adding one add one and getting 25 anyway. Nothing has ever been said by government on this, its sort of gone, stopping reptile shows therefore in the future they will turn on shops, then keepers but this isn't based on anything factual


That is a very nieve assumption.
if it is banned its not like you can covertly keep your animals, what happens when you need a vet, need food etc ?

And TBH lots has been said by the government, take a look on the DEFRA site to start with, then look on any AR site to check the mandates, realise that some of the top RSPCA brass are heavily linked to and advised by the AR brigade and add your 1 and one.....i think you will find that two is actually the answer.


----------



## CaseyM

The government hasnt said anything yet as they cant see it coming.

They are being led by the hand by the Antis and are giving them bit by bit what they want and we're doing little to stop it. 

Even if they cant get an all out ban they can and have got various rules that will continue to make our lives harder and harder in the hope that we'll decide the hobby is no longer worth the effort... Either way - they'll get what they want if we dont get our acts together and stand up to them NOW.


----------



## ratboy

captaincaveman said:


> with respect, ive seen this same conversation for nearly two decades, can you point me to any official facts that show the government plan to abolish keeping exotics?


The goverment has not said they are going to do that. The fact is though, with the AWB in place, Animal Rights organisations have the power to be ABLE to do it, and they have stated that it is one of their aims.

IF we are wrong... then great... sorry for boring everyone.

IF we are right... the AWB is in place, people have the means to do what they want and it's time to wake up.


----------



## captaincaveman

wohic said:


> That is a very nieve assumption.
> if it is banned its not like you can covertly keep your animals, what happens when you need a vet, need food etc ?
> 
> And TBH lots has been said by the government, take a look on the DEFRA site to start with, then look on any AR site to check the mandates, realise that some of the top RSPCA brass are heavily linked to and advised by the AR brigade and add your 1 and one.....i think you will find that two is actually the answer.


 
but the point im making is that if thats the case, then not much can actually be done. Theres alot of people on here who this is new to, but this isn't a new threat at all and nothing has changed recently to change that


----------



## royalpython

ratboy said:


> Maybe the "Why are we being targetted ?" angle would be the one to go for.
> 
> If we could actually get a public admission that Dogs and Cats are on the list of targets then job done... the dog and cat owners would presumably lend us their support. If it is denied that cats and dogs are next, then they could be put on the spot as to why Dogs and Cats make better pets than our animals. In short... they need to be made to explain their actions so that people get the oppertunity to see through it.


 
If we could integrate this ideology into pet shops, without giving them the fear, it might actually work??


----------



## captaincaveman

ratboy said:


> The goverment has not said they are going to do that. The fact is though, with the AWB in place, Animal Rights organisations have the power to be ABLE to do it, and they have stated that it is one of their aims.
> 
> IF we are wrong... then great... sorry for boring everyone.
> 
> IF we are right... the AWB is in place, people have the means to do what they want and it's time to wake up.


as ive said if it goes either way its beyond our control


----------



## bite_me

captaincaveman said:


> as ive said if it goes either way its beyond our control


There is a possibility that if we take enough action early enough we can make people think twice and possibly change things, there is also the possibility that it will make not a jot of difference but if we just lie down and take it we will have only ourselves to blame.


----------



## Nerys

cavie.. lol, i gave up fannying about a long time ago yeah... people kept telling me they like blunt and honest.. so i perfected it... :Na_Na_Na_Na: 

beats me, i used to get bullied for being blunt and honest as a kid.. i guess these days i don't need to go looking for compliments, so it doesn't bother me if i rock a few boats along the way.

i've always said, that for someone to insult you, they first have to mean something to you, as the opinion of someone you think is worthless, means nothing, so why worry what they think at all?

i guess, most people just can't be arsed to worry about what might happen to the hobby, they would rather just get by from day to day and not worry about where we maybe in 20 years time.

which makes you wonder why we all bother doing things like recycling?

people have been saying for 20 years we need to do it.. but it will make no difference to us personally in our life times.. its not going to affect us directly, so we might as well sit back and not bother.. its all just chat and hype and the government will talk and never sort it out anyway.. who cares what happens to our grand kids... whether the ice caps will have gone by then.. whether they can keep a pet in the same way we did as kids..

most of us recycle anyway tho..



> as ive said if it goes either way its beyond our control


is it? or is it just that humankind is uber lazy!


N


----------



## wohic

thank god the suffragettes did not have captaincavemans outlook on life.


----------



## mark elliott

i cant discuss this any further i feel so volotile towards "THE POWERS THAT F****N BE" our country is being slowly taken from us bit by bit that we will become foreigners in our own country, thats if we aren't already. i agree with gaz we should not agree to any kind of legislation as this is the beginning of the end for people like us. what will happen to all the reptiles that people don't have the room to house under such legislation if they can't find someone to take them on as nobody esle has the room either due to there own reps needing more room, will these reps be released into the wild as did with the big cats ? and how long would they survive ?


----------



## ratboy

ahhhh... but why do we recycle ?

Because global warming is rammed down our throats day after day and we are told it's a good idea.

We need to convince the pet keeping world that keeping pets is a good idea and should not become a quaint historical past time.


----------



## captaincaveman

bite_me said:


> There is a possibility that if we take enough action early enough we can make people think twice and possibly change things, there is also the possibility that it will make not a jot of difference but if we just lie down and take it we will have only ourselves to blame.


 

If theres a petition, i'll sign it, if theres a protest, i'll stand with a banner, beyond that theres not alot you can do, IF the descisions already made

If anything like this is in the pipeline there will be notification before it happens like there was with the fox hunting thing(and were no-where near that point yet), im not going to personally worry until then, im just going to enjoy my animals, promote them at every possibility and just give a sideways glance to this side of it, when its time to fight, i'll fight but until then i'm not going to worry, its the old "once bitten twice shy", with me im afraid

People can say ive got me head in the sand if they want, ive been keeping reptiles long enough to see these threats regurly, but im not one to panic or worry until the threats a definite, but thats just me:lol2:

If i had a pound for everytime this discussion came up over the last 17years ive kept reptiles, i'd be knee deep in axanthic blackheaded pythons, if im wrong then you can say "told you so"


----------



## captaincaveman

So tell me what your all going to do about it then???? as im the bad guy here:lol2:


----------



## mark elliott

its time people in this country let the government know that we do have a say and its our right to speak so its time they listened to us. this is supposed to be a democracy from the latin demos cratus meaning "peoples government" so why should we have to do what they say


----------



## ratboy

mark elliott said:


> i cant discuss this any further i feel so volotile towards "THE POWERS THAT F****N BE" our country is being slowly taken from us bit by bit that we will become foreigners in our own country, thats if we aren't already. i agree with gaz we should not agree to any kind of legislation as this is the beginning of the end for people like us. what will happen to all the reptiles that people don't have the room to house under such legislation if they can't find someone to take them on as nobody esle has the room either due to there own reps needing more room, will these reps be released into the wild as did with the big cats ? and how long would they survive ?


IF it becomes illegal to keep them, then it's illegal does not matter if it's a home or a reptile rescue centre.

Captive reptiles cannot be released into the wild because they could carry bacteria and viruses that they have picked up from us that could decimate natural populations... and besides a large number of captive snakes are unnatural morphs or hybrids and would seriously affect the food chain.

Short answer... the only option would be to destroy them.


----------



## Nerys

mark, they would all be killed

the antis say, that its better for an animal to be dead, than spend its life in a *glass/wood/plastic coffin, no matter how nice that coffin is

*delete as applicable

N


----------



## captaincaveman

Also from what i understand it, this would also effect caged birds, hamsters, rabbits,guinea pigs goldfish, tropical fish and every other exotic animal out there, not just reptiles


----------



## mark elliott

ratboy said:


> IF it becomes illegal to keep them, then it's illegal does not matter if it's a home or a reptile rescue centre.
> 
> Captive reptiles cannot be released into the wild because they could carry bacteria and viruses that they have picked up from us that could decimate natural populations... and besides a large number of captive snakes are unnatural morphs or hybrids and would seriously affect the food chain.
> 
> Short answer... the only option would be to destroy them.


 
to be honest with you i would rather distroy the people that are causing the problems not the innocent reps. i can comfortably kill a human a damn sight easier than an animal


----------



## wohic

captaincaveman said:


> Also from what i understand it, this would also effect caged birds, hamsters, rabbits,guinea pigs goldfish, tropical fish and every other exotic animal out there, not just reptiles


 
Every Domestic pet, from horse through to goldfish


----------



## darkdan99

i read the first 8 pages, then skipped to the end. so if this has been mentioned, sorry.

on the APA page, they give this as a letter to send to the DEFRA MP, have a quick read!!
http://www.apa.org.uk/docs/Sample%20Letter%20to%20Bradshaw.doc


----------



## bite_me

I take it it does include cats and dogs then or is it just domestic exotic animals?


----------



## captaincaveman

wohic said:


> Every Domestic pet, from horse through to goldfish


 
thats what im saying, that wouldn't happen overnight. Thats why im not concerned until nearer the time, but obvoisly ive got my head in the sand for not panicing enough yet:lol2:


----------



## ratboy

captaincaveman said:


> Also from what i understand it, this would also effect caged birds, hamsters, rabbits,guinea pigs goldfish, tropical fish and every other exotic animal out there, not just reptiles


It really depends doesn't it.

Take snakes for example... as discussed a couple of pages back.

Under the AWB, and animal has to be able to show it's natural behaviour. For snakes, natural behaviour is hunting, constricting and eating live prey. Under the AWB, subjecting a mouse or rat to these conditions would be against the AWB since it has no means of escape and you are allowing it to be killed by a predator that it would not naturally encounter. Also under the AWB, feeding dead animals to snakes is also not natural behaviour. Indeed, some of them have to be converted to rodents... they are not even natural food.

So if someone prosecutes somebody for keeping a snake because it is impossible to keep it in such a way that it displays natural behaviour, and wins that case... then it automatically becomes illegal to keep snakes. So basically, they can outlaw snake keeping by proving just one line in the AWB.

Will they ? I dont know ... but if they want to ban snake keeping... sounds like a pretty good plan to me and they certainly have the money to prosecute somebody. Then they just need to work down the list and find reasons why any species they want cant be kept properly.


----------



## royalpython

In some instances you could say the slaughter of cows etc is against the AWB. We as humans, carnivorous animals, still have to feed, whether we intentionally kill animals for food, or feed on frozen/thawed foods ourselves. 

We are inside one great big viv, called earth lol.


----------



## bite_me

Oh no, we will all have to be killed or learn to hunt naturally lol


----------



## ratboy

royalpython said:


> In some instances you could say the slaughter of cows etc is against the AWB. We as humans, carnivorous animals, still have to feed, whether we intentionally kill animals for food, or feed on frozen/thawed foods ourselves.
> 
> We are inside one great big viv, called earth lol.


they thought of that... there is specific farming legislation


----------



## ratboy

captaincaveman said:


> thats what im saying, that wouldn't happen overnight. Thats why im not concerned until nearer the time, but obvoisly ive got my head in the sand for not panicing enough yet:lol2:


The AWB is law, it has been since November... how much nearer do you want to get ?


----------



## bite_me

ratboy said:


> The AWB is law, it has been since November... how much nearer do you want to get ?


Thought it only kicked in this month?


----------



## ratboy

bite_me said:


> Thought it only kicked in this month?


It did. But it got royal assent in November.


----------



## captaincaveman

ratboy said:


> It really depends doesn't it.
> 
> Take snakes for example... as discussed a couple of pages back.
> 
> Under the AWB, and animal has to be able to show it's natural behaviour. For snakes, natural behaviour is hunting, constricting and eating live prey. Under the AWB, subjecting a mouse or rat to these conditions would be against the AWB since it has no means of escape and you are allowing it to be killed by a predator that it would not naturally encounter. Also under the AWB, feeding dead animals to snakes is also not natural behaviour. Indeed, some of them have to be converted to rodents... they are not even natural food.
> 
> So if someone prosecutes somebody for keeping a snake because it is impossible to keep it in such a way that it displays natural behaviour, and wins that case... then it automatically becomes illegal to keep snakes. So basically, they can outlaw snake keeping by proving just one line in the AWB.
> 
> Will they ? I dont know ... but if they want to ban snake keeping... sounds like a pretty good plan to me and they certainly have the money to prosecute somebody. Then they just need to work down the list and find reasons why any species they want cant be kept properly.


 
But then under normal conditions, with that terminology, gineau pigs must be allowed to forredge for food, birds must me able to fly, fish to eat live vegetable matter and live insects etc etc. Ive never seen fish in the wild eating dry pink fish flakes, or budgies munching on cuttle fish, gineau pigs eating dry food and to take it to the extremes wild dogs eating food in jelly


To give an example of the conceved threat and actual legislation

I have belonged to a gun club since i was 18, after dumblaine with was easily one of the top five worse things to happen in recent history, what happened with gun control, they banned hand guns, thats it, you can still shoot black power six shot revolvers, you can still get a shot gun licence at 14(with the same rules applying as before) and you can still shoot semi-automatic rifles, which have little use on a target range, similar talk happened then, "thats it, the end of shooing" etc etc and that was with even greater public support than they would get from trying to get rid of peoples reptiles, fish, budgies, hamsters etc


----------



## bite_me

ratboy said:


> It did. But it got royal assent in November.


Ahhh, ok


----------



## captaincaveman

ratboy said:


> The AWB is law, it has been since November... how much nearer do you want to get ?


 
but there is nothing on their about banning pet keeping


----------



## ratboy

captaincaveman said:


> but there is nothing on their about banning pet keeping


No, but it is an enabling bill and a means to an end.


----------



## captaincaveman

ratboy said:


> No, but it is an enabling bill and a means to an end.


 

Its a possibility, thats all, as i said before, if all pets get banned then you can say "told you so" but i personally dont see it


----------



## bite_me

captaincaveman said:


> Its a possibility, thats all, as i said before, if all pets get banned then you can say "told you so" but i personally dont see it


The ban on fox hunting was only a possibility at one point.


----------



## captaincaveman

bite_me said:


> Fox hunting was only a possibility at one point.


 

true, but if they bring in new legislation then something might(only might) be able to be done, if they use this current one well theres not much you can do

I'm not going to loose any sleep over it just yet, if others want to panic, stop buying and sell up(or euthenase their animals) its up to them, cause when push comes to shove and your that concerned over the awb then the only options that are actually open to you is sit tight or sell up


----------



## bite_me

captaincaveman said:


> the only options that are actually open to you is sit tight or sell up


Or to start preparing action now so we are ahead when it happens and do not lose vital time when it is needed debating about what action to take.


----------



## captaincaveman

bite_me said:


> Or to start preparing action now so we are ahead when it happens and do not lose vital time when it is needed debating about what action to take.


 
preparing action, like what? if they use the awb like everyone says, theres nothing you can do as its already here, like i said, if theres some movement happening, i'll throw time and effort into it but.....


----------



## bite_me

captaincaveman said:


> preparing action, like what? if they use the awb like everyone says, theres nothing you can do as its already here


I don't know, media action, getting the cat and dog owners to see they are next and get them on side, make most if not all animal owners aware of what could happen, approach high profile people to get them on side, anyone else got suggestions?


----------



## CaseyM

Selective human culling??

Damn shame thats already illegal


----------



## captaincaveman

bite_me said:


> I don't know, media action, getting the cat and dog owners to see they are next and get them on side, make most if not all animal owners aware of what could happen, approach high profile people to get them on side, anyone else got suggestions?


 
the cat and dogs owners know they they will NEVER be touched, even the rspca wouldn't dare touch them


----------



## bite_me

captaincaveman said:


> the cat and dogs owners know they they will NEVER be touched, even the rspca wouldn't dare touch them


How do you know they will never be touched, if this starts it will never stop until it hits a wall and nobody has any pets.


----------



## Ssthisto

captaincaveman said:


> true, but if they bring in new legislation then something might(only might) be able to be done, if they use this current one well theres not much you can do
> 
> I'm not going to loose any sleep over it just yet, if others want to panic, stop buying and sell up(or euthenase their animals) its up to them, cause when push comes to shove and your that concerned over the awb then the only options that are actually open to you is sit tight or sell up


and 



captaincaveman said:


> People can say ive got me head in the sand if they want, ive been keeping reptiles long enough to see these threats regurly, but im not one to panic or worry until the threats a definite, but thats just me


....

You know, we used to have a dream.

We wanted to breed sheltopusik - they're fantastic animals, fascinating legless lizards with great personalities. 

We acquired a sexed pair from someone who's had them here in the UK for years.

Guess what?

*We can't keep these animals any more, let alone breed them.*

Why?

Because we can't prove without a shadow of a doubt that our _Ophisaurus apodus_ are captive bred AND legally brought into the country. They're on that pesky "European Protected Species" list, and the law's just come in to state that you require a license to keep them AT ALL, and licenses are only issued to known CB specimens.

We do have plans for them - we've known about the EPS legislation since the consultations were taking place and we DID send letters to the appropriate people voicing our concerns. 

But it's going to break my heart to lose Chumley and Tananda just because people thought "Oh, it'll never happen." 

How many other voices would it have taken to make a difference?


----------



## bite_me

CaseyM said:


> Selective human culling??
> 
> Damn shame thats already illegal


Can we do the chavs at the same time? lol


----------



## captaincaveman

Ssthisto said:


> and
> 
> 
> 
> ....
> 
> You know, we used to have a dream.
> 
> We wanted to breed sheltopusik - they're fantastic animals, fascinating legless lizards with great personalities.
> 
> We acquired a sexed pair from someone who's had them here in the UK for years.
> 
> Guess what?
> 
> *We can't keep these animals any more, let alone breed them.*
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because we can't prove without a shadow of a doubt that our _Ophisaurus apodus_ are captive bred AND legally brought into the country. They're on that pesky "European Protected Species" list, and the law's just come in to state that you require a license to keep them AT ALL, and licenses are only issued to known CB specimens.
> 
> We do have plans for them - we've known about the EPS legislation since the consultations were taking place and we DID send letters to the appropriate people voicing our concerns.
> 
> But it's going to break my heart to lose Chumley and Tananda just because people thought "Oh, it'll never happen."
> 
> How many other voices would it have taken to make a difference?


 
But, that is a definite legislation we do need and i can personally see the reason for that one(obvoisly not in your case as they were cb), Or are you saying that protected animals shouldn't be licenced and free to trade?

sorry to hear of your problems though


----------



## captaincaveman

bite_me said:


> Can we do the chavs at the same time? lol


now thats something that does need banning:no1: :lol2:


----------



## bite_me

captaincaveman said:


> now thats something that does need banning:no1: :lol2:


What chavs or the killing of chavs?


----------



## captaincaveman

bite_me said:


> What chavs or the killing of chavs?


 
chavs, hoodies and wannabe gangsters should all be banned:lol2:


----------



## bite_me

captaincaveman said:


> chavs, hoodies and wannabe gangsters should all be banned:lol2:


total agreement, I think even chavs would agree as they don't think of themselves as chavs, therefore we could have their permission to ban them, yey!


----------



## captaincaveman

Just another comment that will probably get me flamed off this thread, but.....



The people who are taking this subject really seriously and reckon its just a matter of time before a ban, would surely be irresponsible if they buy or breed any other animals from now on


just a thought 


"awaiting flaming session":Na_Na_Na_Na: :lol2:


----------



## bite_me

captaincaveman said:


> Just another comment that will probably get me flamed off this thread, but.....
> 
> 
> 
> The people who are taking this subject really seriously and reckon its just a matter of time before a ban, would surely be irresponsible if they buy or breed any other animals from now on
> 
> 
> just a thought
> 
> 
> "awaiting flaming session":Na_Na_Na_Na: :lol2:


That would be giving in though wouldn't it and most people won't do that :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## captaincaveman

bite_me said:


> That would be giving in though wouldn't it and most people won't do that :Na_Na_Na_Na:


 
Just a thought:lol2:


----------



## JBJcool

gaz said:


> IFAW, RSPCA, AA, APA etc.


if i get my flamming hands on these people im gona kill em


----------



## bite_me

I want to look at the subsections of the act but can't find them, anyone know where I can look?


----------



## JBJcool

captaincaveman said:


> chavs, hoodies and wannabe gangsters should all be banned:lol2:


just coz we wear hoodies doesnt mean we should be banned im wearing a hoodie while writing this....

there good for keeping you ears warm in winter


----------



## captaincaveman

JBJcool said:


> just coz we wear hoodies doesnt mean we should be banned im wearing a hoodie while writing this....
> 
> there good for keeping you ears warm in winter


ah, i differentiate between hoodie wearers and hoodies, hoodies are the ones who still wear them with gloves and a scarf over their face on a 32degree day:lol2:


----------



## Ssthisto

captaincaveman said:


> But, that is a definite legislation we do need and i can personally see the reason for that one(obvoisly not in your case as they were cb), Or are you saying that protected animals shouldn't be licenced and free to trade?
> 
> sorry to hear of your problems though


No, I'm saying that maybe further consultation would have made it so that animals CURRENTLY in the UK would be "grandfathered" into the act - where people who already owned them would be issued a license to keep them because they'd be "assumed" to be CB and legally obtained. Yes, make it necessary for NEW keepers to obtain licenses and prove CB origin... but for animals currently in captivity the ability to obtain licensing should be there.

No such luck. Hell, the licenses available on the DEFRA site now seem to be more concerned with habitat alteration and not keepers to begin with... I suppose I could get a license to bulldoze my spare bedroom but I can't get a license to keep the sheltos living in it.


----------



## captaincaveman

Ssthisto said:


> No, I'm saying that maybe further consultation would have made it so that animals CURRENTLY in the UK would be "grandfathered" into the act - where people who already owned them would be issued a license to keep them because they'd be "assumed" to be CB and legally obtained.
> 
> No such luck. Hell, the licenses available on the DEFRA site now seem to be more concerned with habitat alteration and not keepers to begin with... I suppose I could get a license to bulldoze my spare bedroom but I can't get a license to keep the sheltos living in it.


 
yeah, its easier for them to just do a blanket ban(for non paperwork animals) across the field, but it is really really inconsiderate for the people who already own It would have made sense to consider all animals cb from "a date" backwards


----------



## bite_me

This is bugging me now, I need the subsections!


----------



## captaincaveman

bite_me said:


> This is bugging me now, I need the subsections!


 
ive got it as a pdf file, can i pm that????


----------



## bite_me

Can get that, it's the bit clarifying what counts as mutilation that I need as some procedures are excluded. If it has that then yes please.


----------



## bite_me

Gave up, called the vet, he's calling me back.


----------



## bite_me

I just had a thought, if neutering and spaying pets is now classed as mutilation that's going to be bad news for rabbits as females are prone to cancer if they're not spayed, how much healthier is that for the animal?


----------



## Pauline

I still think the media will be a great help if only to draw attention to the fact that this will affect owners of all exotics kept in tanks, cages and vivs. At least it would get them all on our side too. Think of the huge numbers of people keeping and breeding birds, small animals, fish to name just a few that may come under these new regulations. They would all add weight to our arguments.


----------



## captaincaveman

heres the link, took a while to find it, its the whole act including the mutilation bit too as a pdf

Defra, UK - Animal Health and Welfare - Animal Welfare - Animal Welfare Act


----------



## ratboy

captaincaveman said:


> The people who are taking this subject really seriously and reckon its just a matter of time before a ban, would surely be irresponsible if they buy or breed any other animals from now on


As it happens I agree... and I am probably not breeding anything else this year. I doubt I will even incubate my Taiwanese beauty eggs when she lays them and we will probably be off to somewhere where I am allowed to keep them when the time comes.

What we need to do is get all the animal keepers united, including (especially) cat and dog owners, and make it so that the government feel that they may lose the next election if they pass ammendments to this bill. Personally I think it's already to late, species can already be banned under the existing bill without any ammendments.

Laws are already being passed stopping us keeping certain species as pointed out by ssthisto and *STILL *people say "it wont happen". It's like saying "Stay still and we'll be fine" with a juggernaut coming straight at you.


----------



## captaincaveman

ratboy said:


> As it happens I agree... and I am probably not breeding anything else this year. I doubt I will even incubate my Taiwanese beauty eggs when she lays them and we will probably be off to somewhere where I am allowed to keep them when the time comes.
> 
> What we need to do is get all the animal keepers united, including (especially) cat and dog owners, and make it so that the government feel that they may lose the next election if they pass ammendments to this bill. Personally I think it's already to late, species can already be banned under the existing bill without any ammendments.
> 
> Laws are already being passed stopping us keeping certain species as pointed out by ssthisto and *STILL *people say "it wont happen". It's like saying "Stay still and we'll be fine" with a juggernaut coming straight at you.


 

It's still not definite though, or are you already preparing to have your animals put down?


The species pointed out are legitimate species that need protecting, its no different from what other countrys/continents did decades ago, its something that needs doing, that doesn't mean that all species will go on it, thats a different kettle of fish, thats conservation of endangered species


----------



## Ssthisto

captaincaveman said:


> yeah, its easier for them to just do a blanket ban(for non paperwork animals) across the field, but it is really really inconsiderate for the people who already own It would have made sense to consider all animals cb from "a date" backwards


And it gets worse. Animal-specific paperwork isn't issued for most of the stuff on the list - you might be able to find import paperwork for, say, "30 CB Greek Tortoises" ... but you can't prove that YOUR tortoise was one of them!

If you didn't own your reptile on the following list BEFORE 1994... your animal requires licensing (and god forbid you don't have paperwork...):

*REPTILES*

*TESTUDINATA*
_Testudinidae
_Testudo graeca - Mediterranean Spur-Thighed and Greek Tortoises
Testudo hermanni - Hermann's Tortoise
Testudo marginata - Marginated Tortoise
_Cheloniidae_
Caretta caretta - Loggerhead Sea Turtle
Chelonia mydas - Green Turtle
Lepidochelys kempii - Kemp's Ridley Sea Turtle
Eretmochelys imbricata - Hawksbill Turtle
_Dermochelyidae_
Dermochelys coriacea - Leatherback Turtle
_Emydidae_
Emys orbicularis - European Pond Turtle
Mauremys caspica - Caspian Pond Turtle
Mauremys leprosa - Mediterranean Pond Turtle

*SAURIA
*_Lacertidae
_Algyroides fitzingeri - Pygmy Algyroides
Algyroides marchi - Spanish Algyroides
Algyroides moreoticus - Greek Algyroides
Algyroides nigropunctatus - Dalmatian Algyroides
Gallotia atlantica - Canary Island Lizard
Gallotia galloti - Tenerife Lizard
Gallotia galloti insulanagae - Anaga Lizard
Gallotia simonyi - El Hierro Giant Lizard
Gallotia stehlini - Canary Island Lizard
Lacerta agilis - Sand Lizard (all subspecies)
Lacerta bedriagae - Bedriaga's Rock Lizard 
Lacerta bonnali (Lacerta monticola) - Pyrenean Rock Lizard
Lacerta monticola - Iberian Rock Lizard
Lacerta danfordi - Danford's Lizard
Lacerta dugesi - 
Lacerta graeca - Greek Rock Lizard
Lacerta horvathi - Horvath's Rock Lizard
Lacerta schreiberi - Iberian Emerald Lizard
Lacerta trilineata - Balkan Emerald Lizard
Lacerta viridis - European Green Lizard
Lacerta vivipara pannonica - Viviparous (common) Lizard 
Ophisops elegans - Snake-Eyed Lizard
Podarcis erhardii - Erhard's wall lizard
Podarcis filfolensis - Maltese Wall Lizard
Podarcis hispanica atrata 
Podarcis lilfordi - Balearic Lizard
Podarcis melisellensis - Dalmatian Wall Lizard
Podarcis milensis - Milos Wall Lizard
Podarcis muralis - Common Wall Lizard
Podarcis peloponnesiaca - Peloponnese Wall Lizard
Podarcis pityusensis - Ibiza Wall Lizard
Podarcis sicula - Italian Wall Lizard
Podarcis taurica - Balkan Wall Lizard
Podarcis tiliguerta - Tyrrhenian Wall Lizard
Podarcis wagleriana - Sicilian Wall Lizard
_Scincidae
_Ablepharus kitaibelli
Chalcides bedriagai - Bedriaga's Skink
Chalcides ocellatus - Eyed Skink
Chalcides sexlineatus - Gran Canaria Skink
Chalcides simonyi (Chalcides occidentalis) - Eastern Canary Skink
Chalcides viridianus 
Ophiomorus punctatissimus 
_Gekkonidae
_Cyrtopodion kotschyi - Kotschy's Gecko
Phyllodactylus europaeus - Leaf-Fingered Gecko
Tarentola angustimentalis - East Canary Gecko
Tarentola boettgeri - Gran Canaria Gecko
Tarentola delalandii - Tenerife Gecko
Tarentola gomerensis - La Gomera Gecko
_Agamidae_
Agama (Laudakia) stellio stellio - Starred Agama
_Chamaeleontidae
_Chamaeleo chamaeleon - Mediterranean Chameleon
_Anguidae_
Ophisaurus apodus Sheltopusik / Giant European Glass Lizard

*OPHIDIA*
_Colubridae
_Coluber caspius - Large Whip Snake
Coluber cypriensis - Cyprus Whip Snake
Coluber hippocrepis - Horseshoe Whip Snake
Coluber jugularis - Black Whip Snake
Coluber laurenti
Coluber najadum - Dahl's Whip Snake
Coluber nummifer - Coin Marked Snake
Coluber viridiflavus - Western Whip Snake
Coronella austriaca - Smooth Snake
Eirenis modesta - Dwarf Snake
Elaphe longissima - Aesculapian Snake
Elaphe quatuorlineata - Four-Lined Snake
Elaphe situla - Leopard Rat Snake
Natrix natrix cetti - Grass Snake
Natrix natrix corsa - Grass Snake
Natrix natrix cypriaca - Grass Snake
Natrix tessellata - Dice Snake
Telescopus falax - European Cat Snake
_Viperidae
_Vipera ammodytes - Nose-Horned Viper
Macrovipera schweizeri (Vipera lebetina schweizeri) - Milos Viper
Vipera seoanni (except Spanish populations) - Seoane's Viper
Vipera ursinii - Meadow Viper 
Vipera xanthina - Ottoman Viper

Anyone recognise anything on the list? Got any of these? Can you prove YOURS were captive-bred with specimen-specific paperwork from the breeder?


----------



## wohic

I tried to bring this list to people attention several weeks ago, think it got 2 replys !
is it a case of ignorance is bliss ?


----------



## ratboy

captaincaveman said:


> It's still not definite though, or are you already preparing to have your animals put down?


No, I'm planning to keep them all alive in another country should I need to.



> The species pointed out are legitimate species that need protecting, its no different from what other countrys/continents did decades ago, its something that needs doing, that doesn't mean that all species will go on it, thats a different kettle of fish, thats conservation of endangered species


So what happens to all the captive bred species that you cannot prove are captive bred ? and next time DEFRA want to pass a law like this... will they go through a consultation stage or will we get shafted again ?


----------



## Dirteewrongen

Thought this might be of use to anyone new to the 'situation'. Basicly shows a who's who - doing what etc.
Remember reading it last year - got me searching on these 'causes'  

Animal Rights & the Future of the Pet Industry 2006


----------



## captaincaveman

ratboy said:


> No, I'm planning to keep them all alive in another country should I need to.
> 
> 
> 
> So what happens to all the captive bred species that you cannot prove are captive bred ? and next time DEFRA want to pass a law like this... will they go through a consultation stage or will we get shafted again ?


 
But dont you understand, those species are on there because they are endangered, would you prefer them not to be there and extinct in the wild? look at snakes like dumerils they have been classed endangered since 1977(not sure when the cities 1 was put on it though) and not everything from the african continent has been added, its the same thing


----------



## peaches

Ssthisto said:


> Anyone recognise anything on the list? Got any of these? Can you prove YOURS were captive-bred with specimen-specific paperwork from the breeder?


Yup got some on that list, makes me a criminal straight away - although I thought this had been put on hold for the time being????

The hobby needs to make the British public aware that they are next with regards to cats and dogs, animals that (some) people let crap everywhere, there's the first part of the angle AR will use.

But it will be a cold day in hell before my animals are destroyed, I would rather just let them go - ok maybe not the best attitude but it is how I feel sometimes, maybe keepers should threat a mass release day lol.

Joking aside because this really is a too important a topic, where are the celeb keepers, where's someone with the cash to fund a major advertising campaign? Sadly these days this seems to be the only way.

Anyone got any more details about the 'reptile awareness day'??


----------



## Ssthisto

peaches said:


> Yup got some on that list, makes me a criminal straight away - although I thought this had been put on hold for the time being????


To my knowledge keepers have a three month grace period to get their animals licensed (ok, to get a license for developing their habitat, or some such - that's the ONLY license available on the DEFRA site right now)... I haven't heard that it's been substantially put on hold... the last date I'd heard about was "April 13th" ... which has been and gone.


----------



## ratboy

captaincaveman said:


> But dont you understand, those species are on there because they are endangered, would you prefer them not to be there and extinct in the wild?


Yes, I understand that they are endangered and I understand why they are on the list.

Do you understand that many captive bred animals that are nothing to do with the endangered species are now or soon will be kept illegally because their owners cannot prove they are captive bred and will therefore be assumed to be wild caught ?

Do you understand that the law was passed with no consultation and that going on this evidence DEFRA will have no qualms about pushing new laws through with no consultation in the future ?


----------



## captaincaveman

ratboy said:


> Yes, I understand that they are endangered and I understand why they are on the list.
> 
> Do you understand that many captive bred animals that are nothing to do with the endangered species are now or soon will be kept illegally because their owners cannot prove they are captive bred and will therefore be assumed to be wild caught ?
> 
> Do you understand that the law was passed with no consultation and that going on this evidence DEFRA will have no qualms about pushing new laws through with no consultation in the future ?


 
yeah, ofcourse i understand that, the same thing would have happened with things like dumerils, if they were kept back there too, doesn't mean the lists going to get longer and longer, these are cities animals were talking about and shouldn't need consultation with the general public/keepers to say they need protecting 

obviously there would have been better ways of handling the cb animals but doesn't mean they are going to put non endangered onto the list


----------



## Ssthisto

captaincaveman said:


> yeah, ofcourse i understand that, the same thing would have happened with things like dumerils, if they were kept back there too, doesn't mean the lists going to get longer and longer, these are cities animals were talking about and shouldn't need consultation to say they need protecting
> 
> obviously there would have been better ways of handling the cb animals but doesn't mean they are going to put non endangered onto the list


Want a funny?

Here is a list of the animals on the European Protected Species list which are NOT on CITES... and I'd have thought that CITES was THE "endangered species list". 

REPTILES

Emys orbicularis - European Pond Turtle
Mauremys caspica - Caspian Pond Turtle
Mauremys leprosa - Mediterranean Pond Turtle
Algyroides fitzingeri - Pygmy Algyroides
Algyroides marchi - Spanish Algyroides
Algyroides moreoticus - Greek Algyroides
Algyroides nigropunctatus - Dalmatian Algyroides
Gallotia atlantica - Canary Island Lizard
Gallotia galloti - Tenerife Lizard
Gallotia galloti insulanagae - Anaga Lizard
Gallotia stehlini - Canary Island Lizard
Lacerta agilis - Sand Lizard (all subspecies)
Lacerta bedriagae - Bedriaga's Rock Lizard 
Lacerta bonnali (Lacerta monticola) - Pyrenean Rock Lizard
Lacerta monticola - Iberian Rock Lizard
Lacerta danfordi - Danford's Lizard
Lacerta dugesi - 
Lacerta graeca - Greek Rock Lizard
Lacerta horvathi - Horvath's Rock Lizard
Lacerta schreiberi - Iberian Emerald Lizard
Lacerta trilineata - Balkan Emerald Lizard
Lacerta viridis - European Green Lizard
Lacerta vivipara pannonica - Viviparous (common) Lizard 
Ophisops elegans - Snake-Eyed Lizard
Podarcis erhardii - Erhard's wall lizard
Podarcis filfolensis - Maltese Wall Lizard
Podarcis hispanica atrata 
Podarcis melisellensis - Dalmatian Wall Lizard
Podarcis milensis - Milos Wall Lizard
Podarcis muralis - Common Wall Lizard
Podarcis peloponnesiaca - Peloponnese Wall Lizard
Podarcis sicula - Italian Wall Lizard
Podarcis taurica - Balkan Wall Lizard
Podarcis tiliguerta - Tyrrhenian Wall Lizard
Podarcis wagleriana - Sicilian Wall Lizard
Ablepharus kitaibelli
Chalcides bedriagai - Bedriaga's Skink
Chalcides ocellatus - Eyed Skink
Chalcides sexlineatus - Gran Canaria Skink
Chalcides simonyi (Chalcides occidentalis) - Eastern Canary Skink
Chalcides viridianus 
Ophiomorus punctatissimus 
Cyrtopodion kotschyi - Kotschy's Gecko
Phyllodactylus europaeus - Leaf-Fingered Gecko
Tarentola angustimentalis - East Canary Gecko
Tarentola boettgeri - Gran Canaria Gecko
Tarentola delalandii - Tenerife Gecko
Tarentola gomerensis - La Gomera Gecko
Agama (Laudakia) stellio stellio - Starred Agama
Ophisaurus apodus Sheltopusik / Giant European Glass Lizard

OPHIDIA
Coluber caspius - Large Whip Snake
Coluber cypriensis - Cyprus Whip Snake
Coluber hippocrepis - Horseshoe Whip Snake
Coluber jugularis - Black Whip Snake
Coluber laurenti
Coluber najadum - Dahl's Whip Snake
Coluber nummifer - Coin Marked Snake
Coluber viridiflavus - Western Whip Snake
Coronella austriaca - Smooth Snake
Eirenis modesta - Dwarf Snake
Elaphe longissima - Aesculapian Snake
Elaphe quatuorlineata - Four-Lined Snake
Elaphe situla - Leopard Rat Snake
Natrix natrix cetti - Grass Snake
Natrix natrix corsa - Grass Snake
Natrix natrix cypriaca - Grass Snake
Natrix tessellata - Dice Snake
Telescopus falax - European Cat Snake
Vipera ammodytes - Nose-Horned Viper
Macrovipera schweizeri (Vipera lebetina schweizeri) - Milos Viper
Vipera seoanni (except Spanish populations) - Seoane's Viper
Vipera xanthina - Ottoman Viper

Doesn't mean that local populations aren't threatened of any given species (like British sand lizards and smooth snakes) ... but you know, if more keepers were allowed to have them and breed them in captivity, maybe we could DO something about that.


----------



## peaches

Not all the animals on the new list are cites atm, yes I have cites paperwork for my torts but what about my situla? No such paper work has exsisted.

In all honesty this should have been alot more public, if I wasn't part of these forums, I wouldn't have a clue that this regulation has come in, not a great telly or newspaper person.

There needs to be time to register your animals, say give 6 months to do so and after that, yes you should have to apply for paperwork like cites.


----------



## ratboy

captaincaveman said:


> yeah, ofcourse i understand that, the same thing would have happened with things like dumerils, if they were kept back there too, doesn't mean the lists going to get longer and longer, these are cities animals were talking about and shouldn't need consultation with the general public/keepers to say they need protecting
> 
> obviously there would have been better ways of handling the cb animals but doesn't mean they are going to put non endangered onto the list


You have lost me completely.


----------



## captaincaveman

Ssthisto said:


> Want a funny?
> 
> Here is a list of the animals on the European Protected Species list which are NOT on CITES... and I'd have thought that CITES was THE "endangered species list".
> 
> REPTILES
> 
> Emys orbicularis - European Pond Turtle
> Mauremys caspica - Caspian Pond Turtle
> Mauremys leprosa - Mediterranean Pond Turtle
> Algyroides fitzingeri - Pygmy Algyroides
> Algyroides marchi - Spanish Algyroides
> Algyroides moreoticus - Greek Algyroides
> Algyroides nigropunctatus - Dalmatian Algyroides
> Gallotia atlantica - Canary Island Lizard
> Gallotia galloti - Tenerife Lizard
> Gallotia galloti insulanagae - Anaga Lizard
> Gallotia stehlini - Canary Island Lizard
> Lacerta agilis - Sand Lizard (all subspecies)
> Lacerta bedriagae - Bedriaga's Rock Lizard
> Lacerta bonnali (Lacerta monticola) - Pyrenean Rock Lizard
> Lacerta monticola - Iberian Rock Lizard
> Lacerta danfordi - Danford's Lizard
> Lacerta dugesi -
> Lacerta graeca - Greek Rock Lizard
> Lacerta horvathi - Horvath's Rock Lizard
> Lacerta schreiberi - Iberian Emerald Lizard
> Lacerta trilineata - Balkan Emerald Lizard
> Lacerta viridis - European Green Lizard
> Lacerta vivipara pannonica - Viviparous (common) Lizard
> Ophisops elegans - Snake-Eyed Lizard
> Podarcis erhardii - Erhard's wall lizard
> Podarcis filfolensis - Maltese Wall Lizard
> Podarcis hispanica atrata
> Podarcis melisellensis - Dalmatian Wall Lizard
> Podarcis milensis - Milos Wall Lizard
> Podarcis muralis - Common Wall Lizard
> Podarcis peloponnesiaca - Peloponnese Wall Lizard
> Podarcis sicula - Italian Wall Lizard
> Podarcis taurica - Balkan Wall Lizard
> Podarcis tiliguerta - Tyrrhenian Wall Lizard
> Podarcis wagleriana - Sicilian Wall Lizard
> Ablepharus kitaibelli
> Chalcides bedriagai - Bedriaga's Skink
> Chalcides ocellatus - Eyed Skink
> Chalcides sexlineatus - Gran Canaria Skink
> Chalcides simonyi (Chalcides occidentalis) - Eastern Canary Skink
> Chalcides viridianus
> Ophiomorus punctatissimus
> Cyrtopodion kotschyi - Kotschy's Gecko
> Phyllodactylus europaeus - Leaf-Fingered Gecko
> Tarentola angustimentalis - East Canary Gecko
> Tarentola boettgeri - Gran Canaria Gecko
> Tarentola delalandii - Tenerife Gecko
> Tarentola gomerensis - La Gomera Gecko
> Agama (Laudakia) stellio stellio - Starred Agama
> Ophisaurus apodus Sheltopusik / Giant European Glass Lizard
> 
> OPHIDIA
> Coluber caspius - Large Whip Snake
> Coluber cypriensis - Cyprus Whip Snake
> Coluber hippocrepis - Horseshoe Whip Snake
> Coluber jugularis - Black Whip Snake
> Coluber laurenti
> Coluber najadum - Dahl's Whip Snake
> Coluber nummifer - Coin Marked Snake
> Coluber viridiflavus - Western Whip Snake
> Coronella austriaca - Smooth Snake
> Eirenis modesta - Dwarf Snake
> Elaphe longissima - Aesculapian Snake
> Elaphe quatuorlineata - Four-Lined Snake
> Elaphe situla - Leopard Rat Snake
> Natrix natrix cetti - Grass Snake
> Natrix natrix corsa - Grass Snake
> Natrix natrix cypriaca - Grass Snake
> Natrix tessellata - Dice Snake
> Telescopus falax - European Cat Snake
> Vipera ammodytes - Nose-Horned Viper
> Macrovipera schweizeri (Vipera lebetina schweizeri) - Milos Viper
> Vipera seoanni (except Spanish populations) - Seoane's Viper
> Vipera xanthina - Ottoman Viper
> 
> Doesn't mean that local populations aren't threatened of any given species (like British sand lizards and smooth snakes) ... but you know, if more keepers were allowed to have them and breed them in captivity, maybe we could DO something about that.


 

sorry yeah, different list but same intention, both protected though

where is the links to the full list??


----------



## peaches

The intention is fine but it's just the way it's been done, I think it's great to protect these species but what about ones that you can get wc specimins of that are not in the EU?

Same species, different location, then what?


----------



## captaincaveman

maybe this needs to be put up for the people who missed it, 515 signatures isn't many 

Petition to: Support Pet Keeping.


----------



## 1949_sam

Dirteewrongen said:


> Thought this might be of use to anyone new to the 'situation'. Basicly shows a who's who - doing what etc.
> Remember reading it last year - got me searching on these 'causes'
> 
> Animal Rights & the Future of the Pet Industry 2006


*Theres just soo much to take in? And i really don't want to lose my animals*


----------



## 1949_sam

captaincaveman said:


> maybe this needs to be put up for the people who missed it, 515 signatures isn't many
> 
> Petition to: Support Pet Keeping.


*I've signed it and i'm gonna put it up on both my websites?*


----------



## Ssthisto

captaincaveman said:


> yeah, ofcourse i understand that, the same thing would have happened with things like dumerils, if they were kept back there too, doesn't mean the lists going to get longer and longer, these are cities animals were talking about and shouldn't need consultation with the general public/keepers to say they need protecting
> 
> obviously there would have been better ways of handling the cb animals but doesn't mean they are going to put non endangered onto the list


Incidentally... there is somewhat similar legislation in the works regarding CITES Annex 2 animals as there is for European Protected Species. If CITES 2 animals are traded within the EU, paperwork is not issued for them - even though it would be required to transport them across EU borders. So you've got a large number of animals, again, without specimen-specific paperwork to prove that they weren't wild-caught, because acceptable paperwork is not issued by DEFRA. 

So... if DEFRA decides we need licenses for CITES 2 species - and that we need to be able to prove that our animals are captive bred before we can get a license... we're in exactly the same boat as those of us who own European species now.

I noticed, Caveman, that you've got two royal pythons and a Hogg island boa. They're both CITES 2 species. All pythons and boas are (except the ones that are CITES 1). 

So are monitors. Chameleons. Tegus. Crocodile Skinks. Iguanas. Uromastyx. Day Geckos. Uroplatus geckos.

Can you really afford to keep your head in the sand - and risk that one day you're going to read that whoops, you need a license you can't get because you don't have paperwork they won't issue you?

Heck... these are the animals *I* own that are CITES 2:

0.1 _T. merianae, _1.0_ V. niloticus _
1.1 _E. c. maurus_, 2.2 E_. c. loveridgei, 0.1 E. muelleri, 1.0 E. conicus_
1.0_ P. regius_ 

Fair whack of my collection right there. 

A monitor, a tegu, a pair of Colombian rainbow boas, a number of Kenyan sand boas, a Saharan sand boa, a rough-scaled sand boa and a royal. And some of these animals are beloved family members, you know?



> sorry yeah, different list but same intention, both protected though
> 
> where is the links to the full list??


CITES Appendix Species list

I'm trying to find the full list (including birds and mammals) for the EPS animals - most of the animals I've seen listed are the reptile-specific lists posted on various forums since last year.


----------



## captaincaveman

Ssthisto said:


> Incidentally... there is somewhat similar legislation in the works regarding CITES Annex 2 animals as there is for European Protected Species. If CITES 2 animals are traded within the EU, paperwork is not issued for them - even though it would be required to transport them across EU borders. So you've got a large number of animals, again, without specimen-specific paperwork to prove that they weren't wild-caught, because acceptable paperwork is not issued by DEFRA.
> 
> So... if DEFRA decides we need licenses for CITES 2 species - and that we need to be able to prove that our animals are captive bred before we can get a license... we're in exactly the same boat as those of us who own European species now.
> 
> I noticed, Caveman, that you've got two royal pythons and a Hogg island boa. They're both CITES 2 species. All pythons and boas are (except the ones that are CITES 1).
> 
> So are monitors. Chameleons. Tegus. Crocodile Skinks. Iguanas. Uromastyx. Day Geckos. Uroplatus geckos.
> 
> Can you really afford to keep your head in the sand - and risk that one day you're going to read that whoops, you need a license you can't get because you don't have paperwork they won't issue you?
> 
> Heck... these are the animals *I* own that are CITES 2:
> 
> 0.1 _T. merianae, _1.0_ V. niloticus _
> 1.1 _E. c. maurus_, 2.2 E_. c. loveridgei, 0.1 E. muelleri, 1.0 E. conicus_
> 1.0_ P. regius_
> 
> Fair whack of my collection right there.
> 
> A monitor, a tegu, a pair of Colombian rainbow boas, a number of Kenyan sand boas, a Saharan sand boa, a rough-scaled sand boa and a royal. And some of these animals are beloved family members, you know?
> 
> 
> 
> CITES Appendix Species list
> 
> I'm trying to find the full list (including birds and mammals) for the EPS animals - most of the animals I've seen listed are the reptile-specific lists posted on various forums since last year.


 
Thanks for the link, like i was saying, i haven't got my head in the sand, just not running round like a headless chicken just yet:lol2:


----------



## ratboy

So if I organise a meeting in Surrey for someone to come down and explain all about the AWB and answer questions on it... how many will attend from here ?


----------



## peaches

ratboy said:


> So if I organise a meeting in Surrey for someone to come down and explain all about the AWB and answer questions on it... how many will attend from here ?


Steve just wondering if you should start another thread, this question may get lost amongst all these pages!!

Y'know the lines of 'Oi, do you live near Surrey?':lol2:


----------



## ratboy

peaches said:


> Steve just wondering if you should start another thread, this question may get lost amongst all these pages!!
> 
> Y'know the lines of 'Oi, do you live near Surrey?':lol2:


Might be a plan :lol2::lol2:


----------



## JAM3S

so let me get this right....already under the animal welfare act, if one of my neighbours complains because they find out i have a snake and dont like the idea because of their own ignorance, an inspector has the right to search my house for the animal and if they feel that that animal is not being fed correctly (is that live and natural or frozen and unnatural?) or not housed correctly (who are these inspectors because the RSPCA dont have a clue about reps!) then that inspector has the power to seize my snake on the spot or even destroy the animal where it sits!.....oh and if you stand in their way you get charged by the courts for your efforts! :blahblah:


----------



## ratboy

JAM3S said:


> so let me get this right....already under the animal welfare act, if one of my neighbours complains because they find out i have a snake and dont like the idea because of their own ignorance, an inspector has the right to search my house for the animal and if they feel that that animal is not being fed correctly (is that live and natural or frozen and unnatural?) or not housed correctly (who are these inspectors because the RSPCA dont have a clue about reps!) then that inspector has the power to seize my snake on the spot or even destroy the animal where it sits!.....oh and if you stand in their way you get charged by the courts for your efforts! :blahblah:



The act will be enforced by your local authority who will appoint inspectors, the RSPCA have publicly stated that they do not want to police this. The inspector may be accompanied by an expert.
There are several powers that are available to local authorities and inspectors under the Act, many of which update and improve the powers available under previous law. These include:

Emergency powers in relation to animals in distress
Powers of entry and inspection including the power to seize documents
Prosecution powers
Improvement notices

The act enables preventive action to be taken before suffering occurs.
Like most law anybody can prosecute anybody else for what they percieve to be an offence under the act.
The live feeding example, was just that, an example. Anybody could take you to court for feeding live animals to your snakes just the same as anybody can take you to court for assault for example. The point is, if someone is taken to court and prosecuted for feeding live animals to their snakes and it can also be shown that feeding dead animals to snakes is not natural behaviour and therefore also contrary to the act, then it becomes impossible to keep snakes in captivity legally.... and as groups like PETA, Animal Aid, APA, etc are businesses, they can theoretically do the prosecuting as they have the money behind them to do so.


----------



## Issa

Powers of entry and inspection?? Could you expand on that a bit more please. Does that mean with or without a court order?


----------



## ratboy

Issa said:


> Powers of entry and inspection?? Could you expand on that a bit more please. Does that mean with or without a court order?


With a warrant I believe. Not even the police can get in without one of those.


----------



## ratboy

The act enables preventive action to be taken before suffering occurs.
This is another killer one. The animal does not even have to be suffering... they expert just needs to think it might. 

This could mean the end of rack systems for example... if the expert thinks that rack systems are not suitable and do not provide enough room for your species, they can issue you an improvement notice to make you get it changed and /or take it away. Once they have it, there are provisions to be able to sell it to recoup costs or 'dispose of it'.


----------



## ratboy

peaches said:


> Steve just wondering if you should start another thread, this question may get lost amongst all these pages!!
> 
> Y'know the lines of 'Oi, do you live near Surrey?':lol2:


Thread created here  http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/general-herp-chat/29381-awb-meeting-surrey.html


----------



## HABU

you guys should have a march, get some press. let the population in general decide. anti- exotics are active and doing things. herpers are reserved and mostly observe the eroding of their rights.


----------



## Issa

HABU said:


> you guys should have a march, get some press. let the population in general decide. anti- exotics are active and doing things. herpers are reserved and mostly observe the eroding of their rights.


Can't even do that nowadays, technically police can arrest you over here for simply standing in a large group of people.


----------



## Issa

ratboy said:


> The act enables preventive action to be taken before suffering occurs.
> This is another killer one. The animal does not even have to be suffering... they expert just needs to think it might.
> 
> This could mean the end of rack systems for example... if the expert thinks that rack systems are not suitable and do not provide enough room for your species, they can issue you an improvement notice to make you get it changed and /or take it away. Once they have it, there are provisions to be able to sell it to recoup costs or 'dispose of it'.


I really hate the way some of these laws are worded, does this mean that a perfectly healthy, happy animal can be taken from their owner if the investigators suspect that it may be subject to suffering later on (if so then anybody who breeds feeder anythings regardless of how well, is effectively f%^&ed). Or does it simply give the oppitunity for pre-emptive action in genuine neglect cases without the need for waiting for the victim animal to be half dead before a conviction can be made?


----------



## 1949_sam

Issa said:


> Can't even do that nowadays, technically police can arrest you over here for simply standing in a large group of people.


*That takes the piss :-x i'm really starting to hate our country as just look at what it's turning into. Makes me  *


----------



## 1949_sam

Issa said:


> I really hate the way some of these laws are worded, does this mean that a perfectly healthy, happy animal can be taken from their owner if the investigators suspect that it may be subject to suffering later on (if so then anybody who breeds feeder anythings regardless of how well, is effectively f%^&ed). Or does it simply give the oppitunity for pre-emptive action in genuine neglect cases without the need for waiting for the victim animal to be half dead before a conviction can be made?


*I just don't understand why they are trying and probley will do this in the first place? *

*As i was always leed to belive that landon/england (and all over) was a animal lovers country, so why in the hell are they doing this to us?*

* I have 2 in door cats that have never been out side (well only at the front door and out the back) as i live on the 6th foor and they are very happy as i play with them and they have loads of toys but because a cat is ment to be out in the wild they want to kill everything that lives with us :-x *

*It's just soooo sad  *


----------



## Issa

yeah sam its a crying shame. In one way I can understand, the law as it stands means that nothing can actually be done in the cases of genuine cruelty till after the event itself, you need a visible suffering victim before there is a case to answer, the changes are supposed to make it so that pre-emptive action can be taken before an animal has got to go through hell and back. The wording of it is so P"£$-poor though that whilst in theory it means one thing. In practice it can be taken to mean something else entirely.


----------



## HABU

see? this is what happens when well meaning people pass laws to protect things. for every protective law, for whatever thing, it takes away freedom from someone. some laws seem reasonalble but in practicality, they don't work and only serve to hurt others. you cannot legislate morality. if we pass enough laws everything will be ok. some laws should have an expiration date. and if the law worked, it could be renewed. i only know about america, and if the gov. tried to take something then our congressmen and senators would hear about it. and they want to be re-elected. so enough people can make them kiss our as*e* and not allow a law to get passed. you guys might be in some real danger of having the gov. regulate you even more. don't you have enough laws? how much control does the gov. have over you already? way more than the U.S. you have to stand up for your rights, petition or something.


----------



## 1949_sam

Issa said:


> yeah sam its a crying shame. In one way I can understand, the law as it stands means that nothing can actually be done in the cases of genuine cruelty till after the event itself, you need a visible suffering victim before there is a case to answer, the changes are supposed to make it so that pre-emptive action can be taken before an animal has got to go through hell and back. The wording of it is so P"£$-poor though that whilst in theory it means one thing. In practice it can be taken to mean something else entirely.


*Yea i know what you mean (well i'm getting there) as it's just sooo much to take in all at once and i had no idea about all this thats going on untill i found this thread?*



HABU said:


> see? this is what happens when well meaning people pass laws to protect things. for every protective law, for whatever thing, it takes away freedom from someone. some laws seem reasonalble but in practicality, they don't work and only serve to hurt others. you cannot legislate morality. if we pass enough laws everything will be ok. some laws should have an expiration date. and if the law worked, it could be renewed. i only know about america, and if the gov. tried to take something then our congressmen and senators would hear about it. and they want to be re-elected. so enough people can make them kiss our as*e* and not allow a law to get passed. you guys might be in some real danger of having the gov. regulate you even more. don't you have enough laws? how much control does the gov. have over you already? way more than the U.S. you have to stand up for your rights, petition or something.


*So much has changed over here and we do need to do something about it but what and were do we start?*


----------



## HABU

people need to stick together and not argue amongst themselves. nothing ever gets done when people splinter. the anti exotic/pet people are more organized than a bunch of reptile keepers. numbers are all politicians understand. organized petitions targeted at specific lawmakers is a start. if a lawmaker sees that you are an organized block they will know you are a force to be reckoned with. the anti people have no opposition, of course they get their way. you have smart people and a good herper lawyer could get the ball rolling.


----------



## candoia aspera

Issa said:


> Can't even do that nowadays, technically police can arrest you over here for simply standing in a large group of people.


 
it's called a frey (intent to riot) sorry for the spelling


----------



## Issa

if you mean affray I thought that was if there was more than 4 ppl involved in a scrap. I thought the group thing was something along the lines of "Illegal gathering with intent" or something similar.


----------



## HABU

man, i am so glad to be in america despite the craziness. "fall mountains, just don't fall on me! hendrix"


----------



## candoia aspera

Issa said:


> if you mean affray I thought that was if there was more than 4 ppl involved in a scrap. I thought the group thing was something along the lines of "Illegal gathering with intent" or something similar.


aye, dyslexic/lazy, your right on both accounts


----------



## JAM3S

i agree with habu, its about time we stood up and made ourselves known. There is no point in fighting amonst ourselves what we need is more leaders and less sheep (im calling me a sheep here too) its all very well signing online petitions and alike but thats not realisticly going to acheive anything, especially when the petition gets 550 signatures.


----------



## DaveM

all the animals that are kept at home, my fish, my snakes, my brothers rabbits, my sisters hamsters, two cats, are loved to pieces, they want for nothing, are well fed and looked after, I couldn't imagine being without them, I really couldn't, if there was some form of organised "resistance" to draconian "animal rights" laws, I would gladly give my time and money to help, and I'm sure many exotic keepers feel the same, but the a lack of cohesive effort makes it nigh in impossible, I mean the government has already made it clear they aren't prepared to listen to us and don't care about what we think, they proved it with the road pricing petition, and the "animal rights" groups are well organised and well funded, so have the upper hand, they talk the language of Labour, and that's money, there needs to be some sort of alliance, to actually make a difference and give ALL pet owners a collective voice


as it is, everyone has mentioned the two schools of thought, those that want to do something about it, and those who don't think anything is going to happen, well, I think we need to say "sod off" to those who don't think it will happen, and when the one group start doing something about it, and start bringing about changes, no matter how small, the "don't think it will happen" group will soon come round.



by the way, I write "animal rights" like that, because, if they cared one iota for the animals, they would leave pet keepers alone, and severly penalise those that they have, solid concrete evidence that the animal is in distress, and not the animal is perfectly happy but the housing doesn't meet some set of guidelines (such as rack systems)


----------



## JAM3S

well said daveM, it could be another david and goliath story.


----------



## royalpython

Has anyone any idea's whether the conservative's have a policy on the pet industry?

Edited: SNP, or Lib Dems as well?


----------



## HABU

yea, but you can't just roll over, that's what they expect. we have the same types here but they are in the minority. shoes on the other foot here. our laws are mostly local. every little town or county has to pass simular laws to even make it effective. they try and it makes the news but the peta people and such really don't get much headway here. americans mostly don't stand for that meddeling in private people's lives, whether they keep herps or not. sweet!!


----------



## Issa

bci said:


> aye, dyslexic/lazy, your right on both accounts


Only reason I know is that I used to run a pub and nearly got myself and the entire door crew nicked for it when a large ruck went wrong during an england game....


----------



## ratboy

royalpython said:


> Has anyone any idea's whether the conservative's have a policy on the pet industry?
> 
> Edited: SNP, or Lib Dems as well?


Conservatives are the best of the bunch. Lib Dems are worse than labour... SNP... Who they ???? :lol2:


----------



## royalpython

thats good to hear... i might vote conservative at the next election then 

got to do something. Maybe if we try and involve a party politically at these shows, and pet shops, we can get one over on "new" labour . Most parties are probably as dis-honest as the next... but if we got the backing of conservative's, and the conservative party was able to publicly announce the consequences... could be onto something perhaps? It looks like conservatives would do anything to get into power anyway lol.


----------



## JAM3S

at least this is sounding more constructive :smile:


----------



## ratboy

royalpython said:


> thats good to hear... i might vote conservative at the next election then
> 
> got to do something. Maybe if we try and involve a party politically at these shows, and pet shops, we can get one over on "new" labour . Most parties are probably as dis-honest as the next... but if we got the backing of conservative's, and the conservative party was able to publicly announce the consequences... could be onto something perhaps? It looks like conservatives would do anything to get into power anyway lol.


What we REALLY need... is someone who is a close friend of Jonathan Ross


----------



## JAM3S

why Jonathan Ross?..lol


----------



## ratboy

JAM3S said:


> why Jonathan Ross?..lol


He keeps exotic animals


----------



## royalpython

I'm sh*t at writing but i am in the middle of writing a e-mail to the conservative party, asking how involved the conservatives would be with regards to it all. Letting them know that organisations (RSPCA etc) are bullying us, with their power and money, and have let them know if they support the animal hobby/pet lovers, that they'd get my vote.. i also said if they raised public opinion of the matter, probably all animal lovers in the country would take some form of interest....

I haven't hit "send" yet...... is this a waste of time?


----------



## royalpython

ratboy said:


> He keeps exotic animals


lol, damn! must find his e-mail address :lol2:


----------



## ratboy

royalpython said:


> I'm sh*t at writing but i am in the middle of writing a e-mail to the conservative party, asking how involved the conservatives would be with regards to it all. Letting them know that organisations (RSPCA etc) are bullying us, with their power and money, and have let them know if they support the animal hobby/pet lovers, that they'd get my vote.. i also said if they raised public opinion of the matter, probably all animal lovers in the country would take some form of interest....
> 
> I haven't hit "send" yet...... is this a waste of time?


Making your feelings known is never a waste of time.


----------



## Pauline

Just a thought, but could everyone breeding this year apply for paperwork from DEFRA to prove these offspring at least are cb. I mean all new reptiles born this year. Defra would get swamped with work and soon create. It would also mean that we have the paperwork for the future when they move the goalposts. A bit like registering a litter of pups with the kennel club.


----------



## royalpython

ratboy said:


> Making your feelings known is never a waste of time.


 
Great  I hit send. It will be interesting to see if i get a response at all. lol


----------



## wohic

A genuine letter written from the heart is far more likely to be listened to than the ones people send that are copy and pasted from websites, if you were to recieve 50 identical letters would you read through them all ?


----------



## royalpython

For those that still mention racks.... If I ended up getting one of these so called experts round to my house to talk the biggest pile of crap man/woman is every likely to speak... i'd take them to court!! I'd stand proud and tell them, *they are not experts*! knowledge is found in the books, experience with people who have written books... knowing a depressed snake from a happy snake, care sheets... all of the above. There's loads of material that show how herp hobbyists started out when attempting to look after snake's... it's only now each individual pet owner has the passed on experience from decades of herpitology, and now we can use this to treat our snake's with the best husbandry we can offer...

I need to sleep and wake up and start a brand new day... i feel far to political lol.


----------



## Blazin

im sorry but i didnt read every single page since its getting late and i have an early morning 2morrow. i would just like to say, i've heard that lizards can give you salmonella (sp??) and i was thinking that they could use that to put ppeople off? just a thought lol. and i also replied about that huge snake someone found and said how that can give reptile keepers a bad name? just thoughts on the subject. is this thing going ahead then or what?? dan


----------



## captaincaveman

andyj5447 said:


> Do you really think this? It seems strange you would leave the army to set-up a business selling wild caught reptiles if you beleive we wont be able to keep them soon.


 

I think its too early to say, its all over. 

There are 1million reptile keepers that would be affected, then add on top of that the bird, small mammal and fish keepers(which are way more than us) that would also be affected, your probably talking a quarter of the population(or at least a quarter of households), thats alot of votes that politicians would not want to loose and when push comes to shove thats what counts in all of this(well to politicians)

The hand gun bans affected a very tiny amount of the population with small firearms and the fox hunting about the same(ish), pet keeping is a whole different ball game

In my opinion anyway


----------



## HABU

that's a million votes. that's some power i'd think


----------



## ratboy

HABU said:


> that's a million votes. that's some power i'd think


Only if 1 million people stop saying "It wont happen" and do something otherwise it's no power at all.


Andy... If I read Dan's post correctly, it does imply that he will be ready to move when the time comes. A reptile business will probably be far more lucrative elsewhere anyway.


----------



## captaincaveman

HABU said:


> that's a million votes. that's some power i'd think


 
And thats only the reptile keepers, let alone the other animal keepers that would also be potentially affected. think theres something like 5million reptiles roughly in the uk and the percentage of ill-treated and abandoned reptiles is a tiny percentage compared to what happens to dogs, thats a major difference in neglect


----------



## Guest

some interesting reading here .i for one would rather move than give up my animals .its probably just more shite to force more licencing on us etc etc 

i skim read this so sorry if i missed bits


----------



## captaincaveman

heres a link for your favourites(if you aint got it)

FOCAS: the animal welfare bill


----------



## Ssthisto

Blazin said:


> im sorry but i didnt read every single page since its getting late and i have an early morning 2morrow. i would just like to say, i've heard that lizards can give you salmonella (sp??) and i was thinking that they could use that to put ppeople off? just a thought lol. and i also replied about that huge snake someone found and said how that can give reptile keepers a bad name? just thoughts on the subject. is this thing going ahead then or what?? dan


Yes, lizards could possibly give you salmonella if you're very lax in your hygiene after handling them (or if you lick and/or kiss them). So can eggs, but people EAT those.

The AWB has ALREADY gone ahead.


----------



## KenMan

What I dont understand, is that no-one seems (or am I really confused) to be talking about the original topic...Are all reptiles trying to be banned or just the ones Ssthisto listed?


----------



## captaincaveman

KenMan said:


> What I dont understand, is that no-one seems (or am I really confused) to be talking about the original topic...Are all reptiles trying to be banned or just the ones Ssthisto listed?


 
No one in government has ever mentioned a ban of any-kind. Basically the wording is in the new bill that could potentially cause problems if the rspca went un-checked. There seems to be the assumption be some that, its all over and thats it goodbye to reptile keeping in the uk. Its not at that stage yet(in my opinion) and even if the rspca did clamp down, they cannot sieze animals without giving people the oppertunity to adjust their care/husbandry(thats all in the bill) and even then the rules on the housing etc is not mandatory but a secondary legislation which is not a legally binding thing


----------



## peaches

The ones ssthisto listed are on the EPS, European Protected Species list, the Animal Welfare Bill effects all animals including all reptiles.

Basically the animal rights brigade think there should be no pets AT ALL.

Reptiles/exotics are an easy start towards this ultimate goal.


----------



## Ssthisto

KenMan said:


> What I dont understand, is that no-one seems (or am I really confused) to be talking about the original topic...Are all reptiles trying to be banned or just the ones Ssthisto listed?


I listed the animals I did (on the EPS list) because this is legislation limiting reptile keepers that has already taken effect without consultation or consideration of the keepers or their animals.

Some people think that laws restricting the ability to keep reptiles won't ever happen.

The EPS legislation is proof it can, does and will.

There are potential ways for the AWB (Animal Welfare Bill) to prevent us from keeping reptiles, based on loopholes of interpretation of the law. All it would take is an "animal rights" group to get hold of a good case and fund some good lawyers to get some precedents set:

1. "It's cruel to feed a live animal to another live animal, even if that animal won't eat anything else."
2. "It's cruel to prevent a snake from exhibiting the natural behaviour of hunting live prey."

The natural result of this, if the precedents got set in legal cases: We can't feed them live because it's cruel to the mouse. We can't feed them dead because it's cruel to the snake. We can't feed them at all... so we can't keep them at all.

This is why people are concerned.


----------



## captaincaveman

Ssthisto said:


> I listed the animals I did (on the EPS list) because this is legislation limiting reptile keepers that has already taken effect without consultation or consideration of the keepers or their animals.
> 
> Some people think that laws restricting the ability to keep reptiles won't ever happen.
> 
> The EPS legislation is proof it can, does and will.
> 
> There are potential ways for the AWB (Animal Welfare Bill) to prevent us from keeping reptiles, based on loopholes of interpretation of the law. All it would take is an "animal rights" group to get hold of a good case and fund some good lawyers to get some precedents set:
> 
> 1. "It's cruel to feed a live animal to another live animal, even if that animal won't eat anything else."
> 2. "It's cruel to prevent a snake from exhibiting the natural behaviour of hunting live prey."
> 
> The natural result of this, if the precedents got set in legal cases: We can't feed them live because it's cruel to the mouse. We can't feed them dead because it's cruel to the snake. We can't feed them at all... so we can't keep them at all.
> 
> This is why people are concerned.


 
But that is based on alot of assumption and would also affect the natural behaviour of all fish, mammals and birds. let alone the stopping of all carnivorous species in zoos too

Its a possibility but thats all

It would affect about 9million people(excluding cats and dogs) and(with fish included) affect 83million animals and if you add cats and dogs thats about 100million animals and 

*The pet industry is worth £3.54 billion annually, and growing*


----------



## Ssthisto

captaincaveman said:


> But that is based on alot of assumption and would also affect the natural behaviour of all fish, mammals and birds. let alone the stopping of all carnivorous species in zoos too
> 
> Its a possibility but thats all
> 
> It would affect about 9million people(excluding cats and dogs) and(with fish included) affect 83million animals and if you add cats and dogs thats about 100million animals and
> 
> *The pet industry is worth £3.54 billion annually, and growing*


But the Animal Rights folk don't CARE that it's worth that much money.

They're just going to keep fighting to squeeze and restrict where possible.

A "possibility" has an annoying way of becoming a "probability" or a "fact" if nobody does anything about it.


----------



## 1949_sam

Pauline said:


> Just a thought, but could everyone breeding this year apply for paperwork from DEFRA to prove these offspring at least are cb. I mean all new reptiles born this year. Defra would get swamped with work and soon create. It would also mean that we have the paperwork for the future when they move the goalposts. A bit like registering a litter of pups with the kennel club.


*Yea that would be a good idea for this years but what about all the others  *


----------



## captaincaveman

Ssthisto said:


> But the Animal Rights folk don't CARE that it's worth that much money.
> 
> They're just going to keep fighting to squeeze and restrict where possible.
> 
> A "possibility" has an annoying way of becoming a "probability" or a "fact" if nobody does anything about it.


yeah, doesn't matter how much they want it, the govenment wont want to p*ss off that many people and thats the ones who count, 

The AWB is worded in sections 9 and 10 to say, the person procecuting has to give recommendations for improvements and reasons for it and if the improvemnts are made then no procecution can be made

It also points out that the destruction of the animal can only happen if a vet says it is in the animals interests

The awb as a legal document can also be used by keepers as defence too, if the recommendations for enclosures are made by the correct people(hopefully the govenment use the right people, which they do sometimes), then conforming will not break the conditions of the bill and hence no animals can be removed. Also if healthy animals are destroyed when not necessary its also useful defense for keepers too. Unless the rspca or whoevers going to make space for 100million extra animals


thats the one point that hasn't been made yet, this is a law that has to be followed to the letter, the two points i mentioned have to be done that way and theres no grey issue on those two points, there is on the wording of "natural behaviour" but the actions needed by the keeper etc is black and white and cant be bended to suit them

The only part of the whole bill that could affect healty animals is the "natural behaviour" part in section 9. That does not allow removal of the animal, just for them to advise on corrections that they must supply, therefore they will have to give an alternative that is feasable

Just my opinion though:lol2:


----------



## 1949_sam

Ssthisto said:


> But the Animal Rights folk don't CARE that it's worth that much money.
> 
> They're just going to keep fighting to squeeze and restrict where possible.
> 
> A "possibility" has an annoying way of becoming a "probability" or a "fact" if nobody does anything about it.


*Yea thats very true. But what can we do? I have often taken my reps into my sons school and all the kids and everyone who hated them now love them and most well nearley all are pet owners of something?*


----------



## ratboy

Any chance of taking this presumably private argument off the thread about the AWB etc guys ? Would be a shame to get it closed over something that is nothing to do with the thread.


----------



## gaz

yeah, doesn't matter how much they want it, the govenment wont want to p*ss off that many people and thats the ones who count

just a thought but is this not the same government that has pissed off almost the entire country with pensions raids,buggering the health service,railtransport,road tax,smoking the list is endless,obviously they are not going to be bothered by cost or numbers of people fed up unless its brought home to them that we the people of Britain can render them jobless at the next elections if they dont listen to our needs and our wants etc,one of my favourite organisations The National rifle assosciation in the USA has a simple saying,if you political representatives dont support your views,sack them...simple as that......we need to convince our local MP's that we may indulge in tactical voting to remove any MP that was in full support of restricting our hobby/business.
for anyone that hasnt heard of it its a case of getting enough people in a constituency to put aside the political beliefs and vote on a single issue to remove the incumbent MP,here in South Wales it may not be possible as its a totally safe area for labour, but if any of the MP's who helped push this through occupy marginal seats then a few hundred votes could oust him,also it must be made clear to the opposition MP that this is being done for a purpose and not just so as he/she can railroad us in future.
what we need is some lateral thinking to enable relatively small orgarnisations or groups of individuals to make an impact. 
Never forget politicains like their gravy train and will do most anything to stay aboard
regards gaz
dont forget small terrorist groups can attack hugely powerful countries and have an impact that lasts and causes much change in those countries,small groups have all the power they feel they have,about time we put it to use


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## HABU

that's right, kick 'em out. a,million votes is a million votes. the nra shows how a little organization can defeat all the busy bodies who meddle in others lives


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## royalpython

yup, that was what i was hoping the conservative party might be able to help us do.. here's hoping.


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## peaches

Do you have a source for the quote '_The pet industry is worth £3.54 billion annually, and growing'_ I think this would be handy to include when I write to the new MP, money talks!!! (and votes)


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## Gecko_guy

Nerys said:


> just googled for the peta quote on animals coffins and captivity and found some interesting things..
> 
> Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF)
> 
> According to the CCF's fliers, PETA "killed over 80 percent of the flesh-and-blood animals it took in" in 2004 and has euthanized more than 12,400 animals since 1998.
> 
> An animal rights activist on Wednesday defended PETA's involvement in the killing of an estimated 12,000 animals that had been taken in as strays..
> 
> PETA Protesters Defend Mass Animal Euthanasia -- 11/10/2005
> 
> many of the animal rights followers, would rather see an animal dead than in captivity
> 
> they have in the past said, that should, for instance, snake keeping be banned, then its better to kill all the snakes anyway, than keep them in captivity..
> 
> for instance, the new laws on keeping EU species (which i bet half of you don't even know about). when the proposed confisacting all european species who could not be proven as CB.. someone asked what would happen to all those animals, once they were taken. and the answer? they would be killed, as death is better than life in a box.
> 
> N


Let's just kill all the animals on the planet and be done with it. Excuse me, but what a load of iguana poo.


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## Nerys

maybe someone from focus could have stand here:

http://www.falconryfestival.com/

N


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## gaz

loads of election gumph through my door today,lots of independant parties vying for a go,have got quite a few of my friends to vote against labour,seeing as only around 40% of the population bother to vote there must be lots of people who we collectively know who might be pursuaded to use their votes for our cause
regards gaz


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## royalpython

I have spoken to some people about it where i work. Not one single person knew what the RSPCA's goal was.. i even told them.. that their wealth is gained from public charity, and they reverse the charitable donations by wanting to screw up an animals life.


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## Dave_D

I have heard this getting mentioned on many forums I have been on, and to be honest I think it suck!

If they ban the keeping of animals then thats another SHED loads of people out of work, for example, the Reptile shops, if 3 people work in each shop, times that by the amount of shops in the country, so thats another 10,000 people unemployed roughly, and yet the government are trying to cut the amount unemplyed!!

So how the hell is that going to work?

Also, alot of animals we have are in the wild in millions, so its not as if we are keeping endangered animals! 
but yes, I do agree that stopping the sale of animals in "fairs" as alot of people go there for a day out as its "Close" and take their kids, which in turns leads to "mummy, mumm, I WANT THAT!!!" and of course, many times they get it and dont know how to look after it, so the RSPCA have to step in and the animal either gets put down, or gets rehomed

I think that all shops should come to an arrangement that before they sell any animal, they have to ask the buyer a few questions, and aslong as they get a high % right, then they can have it, if not, then they should be asked to go away, research more, then come back. The 2 shops near me normally give you care sheets, or books as a freebie with the animal your buying so you can learn more. Too many people are buying animals just becasue they look good, and yet know nothing about them!


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## gaz

if we could get as many general pet owners to realise the potential problems then i'm sure most of them would put their animals before their preferred party(if its new labour) well worth mentioning this to everyone you talk to,sow the seeds as it were,its a positive step for individuals to take,which is important as many have said they simply dont know where to turn or what to do,a sort of grass roots type of approach
regards gaz


----------



## gaz

but yes, I do agree that stopping the sale of animals in "fairs" as alot of people go there for a day out as its "Close" and take their kids, which in turns leads to "mummy, mumm, I WANT THAT!!!" and of course, many times they get it and dont know how to look after it, so the RSPCA have to step in and the animal either gets put down, or gets rehomed

the vast majority of the shows i sell at and thats UK and Europe the proportion of "general public" is miniscule at open shows and zero at closed shows,which all or most of UK shows are,so this is not a problem at all
regards gaz


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## ratboy

Yeah, but I think the philosophy behind banning commercial breeders is to stop any chance of wild caught animals being sold on which is why they want is as captive bred hobby animals, also commercial breeders turn it into a market, and markets selling animals are illegal.

If that is really what they want, a stop to trade in WC animals, then it seems more sensible to me for them to go for a ban on imports of WC animals. That way, all animals would be captive bred. This is presumably what is behind the European species legislation but they have gone about it in such a way as to make it impossible to prove the legality of captive bred animals that are already here. Once that was done, surely there can not be any legal issues with commercial breeders at members only shows ? These are not markets as they are not open to the public.


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## Dave_D

this is why I ONLY use shops that I know breed their animals, the main place I use despise wild caught animals, all his are captive bred, as he says this way it makes the animal alot better, and better with human contact as they are used to it more


----------



## KenMan

Ssthisto said:


> I listed the animals I did (on the EPS list) because this is legislation limiting reptile keepers that has already taken effect without consultation or consideration of the keepers or their animals.
> 
> Some people think that laws restricting the ability to keep reptiles won't ever happen.
> 
> The EPS legislation is proof it can, does and will.
> 
> There are potential ways for the AWB (Animal Welfare Bill) to prevent us from keeping reptiles, based on loopholes of interpretation of the law. All it would take is an "animal rights" group to get hold of a good case and fund some good lawyers to get some precedents set:
> 
> 1. "It's cruel to feed a live animal to another live animal, even if that animal won't eat anything else."
> 2. "It's cruel to prevent a snake from exhibiting the natural behaviour of hunting live prey."
> 
> The natural result of this, if the precedents got set in legal cases: We can't feed them live because it's cruel to the mouse. We can't feed them dead because it's cruel to the snake. We can't feed them at all... so we can't keep them at all.
> 
> This is why people are concerned.


Oh right, thanks for that, I understand now, cheers


----------



## bite_me

Just thought I would let people know that anyone with cats, dogs, rabbits, horses etc I found out from the vet that spaying and neutering is not a prohibited procedure.


----------



## slither61

Hi all,

new to hobby last seven months,I have come across this thred tonight and it has shocked me I will be making an appointment to see my new arso** MP and give him a peace of my mind after finding out what he has to say.
Can I put this question, when I by a new CB snake do I ask the seller for a certificate to prove it is CB or does he give me a covernote to send to DEFRA for a certificate.
Lets see for once before, Tony Blair runs away we can all amalgamate together and kick tony blairs arse ( in lowercase I have no respect for t b )


slither61


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## Ssthisto

You should ask the breeder for a specimen-specific sheet (i.e. photo data sheet) stating date of hatch/birth, who bred it, etc.... but DEFRA will NOT accept this for doing a certificate. DEFRA doesn't issue paperwork for CITES annex 2 animals unless they're going out of the EU. And at this moment in time they don't issue paperwork for EPS species.


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## gaz

even with CITIES its a problem


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## HABU

this thread makes me think that your government won't have to ban anything, they can just hassle you all to death with regulations and squelch the hobby. it's a shame but likely to get worse. i don't thing anyone is being paranoid.


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## gaz

this is how they always operate,the dumb thing is though,that once they get something banned,they pretty much ignore the issue afterwards and quite often fail to police the new laws,so we are crimminalised for nothing really
gaz


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## HABU

we have some protected native species here but i doubt you could find a cop or anybody else short of a fish and game officer, that would even know about them. you would have to TRY to get busted. it's a joke, the very few laws we have here. tell a cop your black racer is an eastern indigo and that you are taking it across state lines and he'll say "have a good trip"!!:grin1:


----------



## ratboy

Same here to be honest Habu... I dont think every copper in the UK is going to be given a copy of a snake identification kit 

The problems arise when the council or RSPCA enter your property for something, spot the vivs and get inquisitive as to what is in them. Bit of a dodgy one then as to whether to tell the truth or lie.


----------



## Dave_D

So, I take it this is just labour or is it other parties aswell that are behind it?

Jsut so I know as I dont want to vote for a party, OTHER than labour (NO thankyou!) only to find their backing the ban aswell!

p.s Ratboy, love the lyrics in your sig, cant help but love it though since Pink Floyd are, or were, the best band in the WORLD!


----------



## skimpy

Dave_D said:


> So, I take it this is just labour or is it other parties aswell that are behind it?
> 
> Jsut so I know as I dont want to vote for a party, OTHER than labour (NO thankyou!) only to find their backing the ban aswell!
> 
> p.s Ratboy, love the lyrics in your sig, cant help but love it though since Pink Floyd are, or were, the best band in the WORLD!


I think this crosses party lines...


----------



## Dave_D

to be honest, re-reading the 1st page, it mainly only goes against pet "fairs", not shops....although i do understand that it will make it more difficult for the smaller breeders, but atleast their not loon=king into banning it fully......YET!

atleast they arent banning it all fully, which is a good thing in a way at the moment

Although the bit that is annoying is the ideas of the feeding, and the keeping of them, and to be honest, alot of the animals have a longer, and better life in captivity, as they get the best care and treatement from a majority of the "proper" reptile owners, whereas in the wild they get ill and die, or be killed, go for months and months withough food, or get killed by man!

So dont you think, if kept in the proper conditions, they get a better life being kept as pets?!


----------



## HABU

i'm going to our local reptile show may 5th. hooray!! going to be a blast. i want to pick up a dummerils!!! cheap! can't wait. wild, wild west y'all!


----------



## ratboy

Dave_D said:


> So, I take it this is just labour or is it other parties aswell that are behind it?
> 
> Jsut so I know as I dont want to vote for a party, OTHER than labour (NO thankyou!) only to find their backing the ban aswell!
> 
> p.s Ratboy, love the lyrics in your sig, cant help but love it though since Pink Floyd are, or were, the best band in the WORLD!


Depends what you mean by behind it Dave. Labour introduced the AWB and it is now law, although I doubt any of the local authorities have done anything with it yet as it is still being sorted out. Shows for example are not expected to be sorted out until next year.

The problem is that this is an enabling bill, which means that it can be ammended. We need to get someone to fight for what we want and stop the anti pet keeping lobby getting their way through the bill. As the conservatives are in opposition, if they see standing up for us is going to win them 1,000,000 votes then they will oppose it... if they can see it's going to get them 10,000,000 votes if we get the entire pet owning community to stand up, then they will oppose them while standing on one leg in a bucket of custard wearing a bikini if we asked them to.

The point is that it is now law, so whoever is in power , it will stay law unless it is repealed which would be extremely unlikely. On the face of it, the AWB is a very good bill... the downside is that it can be ammended and we have to stand up for our rights as to what those ammendments are.

The European species thing is a european directive, so the government has no choice but to implement it. It's just the way it has been implemented and the apparent aftermath of it that has everyone concerned.


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## Dave_D

but what are the chances of getting enough people to help us get it abolished?

Although, on the flip side, I understand why they want to as too many people have animals because "they look good" or because it makes them look "cool", yet know NOTHING about them, so they get the wrong treatement, or fed the wrong things, or wrong husbandry

I still feel that the easiest way to help would be to pass another bill, and that bill would be that every prospective owner must fill out a questionaire and hand that to the seller, who then reads it and decides if that prospective owner knows enough about that animal before it is sold, that way then it should help cut down on the amount of people ownging animals with no knowledge, and allow people, like ourselves that know enough, to carry on with what we want to do. I personally wouldnt own an animal withough knowing what its needs are. 

Also, it helps build up more knowledge of the people of this world

For example, if I asked any of you certain questions you should be able to answer, for example:
whats the humidity needed for your animals:
what the daytime temp for them:
night time temp:
does it need UV, if so, what %:
How many hours of daylight does it need, ie. the cycle of day/night:
Whats the best staple diet:
Does that animal need vitamin suppliments:
What is the feeding schedual:
If you animal eats both veg and insects, whats the %, for example 20% protien, 80% veg for something like an adult beardie:
etc. etc

then you should all be able to answer, even if you have to think as to most, it comes as 2nd nature, or you have your temps marked on your habistat, like myself for others in case I wasnt in when the temp gets turned up or down, but I still had to get that info BEFORE I could mark my habistats, to make sure it was correct, so to make sure my g/friend gets it right, or a mate if I were on holiday

Now, how hard would it be to do this to every prosective owner to make sure your selling that animal to the right person?

it should be 2nd nature to get this info BEFORE you purchase! 

And if they dont get atleast 90% of that correct then they should be asked to get more info, then come back and try again...If they get the odd 1 or 2 wrong, then the shop keeper can correct them, or if they feel, make sure every new owner gets 100%

Its not hard is it to ask?


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## HABU

dave d, i think that would be a bad idea. i think i would open the wrong doors. the activist would like it because it would push things a little closer to their ultimate goals. sounds good but the activists i think would exploit it. a restriction is a restriction and i feel they would use it for a launching point. i think it's fair though...in a perfect world.


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## Dave_D

I dont mean exactly like that though, but atleast that way it would stop people owning animals withough being able to care for them

I wouldnt like to see animals going to people who know nothing, and I feel it would help towards stopping the cruelty to animals, as there are too many animals getting put into rescue centers because they are badly cared for

think, how many people bought iguana's because they loved the look of them, but couldnt handle them when they became sexually mature and had off days during breeding seasons, or become too large for them to handle


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## HABU

i agree dave, but maybe that would be something to be considered for the shops. lots of times they don't care and will sell anything to anyone as you know. selling an iguana to a 5 year old is usually a mistake, at least for the lizard. and you can't count on the parents to do the right thing.


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## Nils

Wow, what can I say... was browsing and came across this site... took me two hours to read through this thread last night, about as long to write a message and went and lost it all, so here it is again!

Some good debate here and hopefully a few more people have a better understanding of what we are facing. In response to some of the comments and queries raised (and please forgive the length of reply - there was 35 - 37 now!! - pages of comments to work through!).

- Information sources
Updates on the various regulations that affect us (Animal Welfare Act, CITES, Control of Trade in Endangered Species, Dangerous Wild Animals 
Act, the Transportation of Animals Regulations, the European Protected Species Directive, etc) can be found on the FBH forum:

http://www.f-b-h.co.uk/forums/index.php?c=3

More detailed information on the Animal Welfare Act is available from the FOCAS website:

http://www.focas-uk.info/

- The Animal Welfare Act - good or bad?
There is nothing wrong with the principles of the act or the aims, its how the law will be interpreted and enforced that is the issue. Topics like expressing natural behaviour, sufficient space, etc. are contentious as already mentioned by a number of other posters. The local authorities are supposed to enforce the act, but haven't been given any extra money or resources so most will just leave it to the rspca to enforce it. No change there then so what's the problem? The problem is that the burden of guilt is now not based on whether the animal has visibly suffered, but could conceivably, in the opinion of the expert / inspector, suffer at some point. As the rspca believe reptiles don't make good pets and you can't provide for their needs in captivity, as far as they're concerned we're already in breach of the 5 freedoms. As they will be the experts and the enforcers, and their prosecutions will be private not state (which means if raided and prosecuted the accused won't qualify for legal aid) if they can't afford to fight 9 out of 10 people lose their case and are found guilty of cruelty. 
There are a whole host of areas where the new laws can be twisted to suite the antis purposes.

- Raising the profile of animal keeping
Several people mentioned we should approach celebrity keepers to front our campaigns and help raise awareness... this has been tried on many occasions with poor response - they don't have the time, don't want to get involved in contentious issues, can't risk their careers or becoming the focus of Animal rights attacks, etc. However if anyone here knows any public figures and is able to get them interested / involved, YES PLEASE!!! We need all the help we can get!

- Publicity / campaigns / setting the record straight
A number of you mentioned getting the media involved. This is a great idea in principle but adverts in newspapers cost thousands and really the media are generally only interested in the gory shock horror stories and in a number of cases are in fact heavily in the other camp! Animal rights ideology is regularly spouted by the media and the RSPCA, APA, AA, PETA and other rights groups get far more air time than any of the keepers or breeders groups and associations in all areas of animal keeping, not just the 'nasty creepy crawley scaly' things!
But it's not all bad! there have been some notable successes and some of these (newspaper articles, radio debates and documentaries) you can read about on the FBH forum:

http://www.f-b-h.co.uk/forums/viewforum.php?f=10

- The 'it'll never happen' attitude
Well sorry to say it already has.
For example, about 10 yrs ago when we had a busy and vibrant show calendar, a lot of people said shows would never be stopped. In 2000, 12 out of 15 shows were cancelled because of anti propaganda and the councils pulling the plug at the last minute. Certainly the handful of breeders meetings that have run in the last few years are not anywhere near as big or busy, or interesting in terms of stock range. The only reason we still have any shows at all is because people like Chris put themselves on the line to keep them going, and with the judicial review and new legislation in 2008 we could still be looking at the end of them all. That is what the rspca and the animal rights groups are campaigning for.
The restrictions in keeping various species, the new requirements for licensing and the tightening of controls on importing, breeding, transporting and sale of animals will all have a knock on effect - it may take time and happen slowly, but anyone who remembers the heydays of the Dagenham / Essex shows etc. can't say nothing has happened, can't happen, will never happen.

- It's too late / nothing we can do / time to emigrate!
The doom and gloom message is a powerful one, if we had sat back 5 years ago saying the animal welfare bill will come in no matter what we say so what's the point, we would have a very different act today. MPs in general are led by high profile campaigns and listen to whoever screams the loudest... the liberal democrat manifesto pledges to ban the import, sale and private ownership of all CITES listed species, reptiles and primates. A large number of labour ministers and MPs are heavily linked with the animal rights groups like Animal Aid. If our camp had sat back saying it's all over then the only people advising the government would be the rspca and the antis. Instead, people like Chris Newman have been involved from the inside, writing articles, telling people what's happening, going to meetings, badgering ministers, getting involved in the consultation
process, putting out information packs, putting straight the antis lies and misinformation, and banging the pro keeping drum, with no help and support from within the community and worst, even ridiculed and savagely attacked by the same people who said it'll never happen or it's already too late.
To those people who don't want to get involved then don't.
To those of you who do, please understand there are no easy or quick solutions. The FBH, FOCAS (and REPTA as the representative body for the trade) are now in a position where they have some degree of respect with the policy makers, hard fought for and hard earned, and bloody well deserved considering the shite they've had to put up with from within our own communities, but they are there, in the middle of it all so need our support and our help.

So what can you do?

Get involved
- Over the coming months and yrs there will be a number of secondary legislation to be passed which will directly impact on our hobby. Watch out for the information on the latest legislative consultation and get involved in the process, either by letting the FBH/FOCAS know your views or by writing directly to defra... ideally do both!
During each consultation phase, the FBH/FOCAS will post information on the details and the issues and provide guidance on how to put your concerns to defra. It really doesn't matter how good your english is, it's your passion about the issues you care about that will make the difference. All that we ask is that you check your facts are correct.

- There are a large number of different governmental and other bodies involved in the process and there is always a need for people who are able to attend meetings across the country, gather information and put the pro-keepers's point across.
If you have the time and resources to attend meetings and feel you can articulately put our side's points across please get in touch.

Spread the message
- If you know other animal keepers or visit other animal keeping forums / shows (birds, rabbits, cavies, rats, exotic mammals, fish, horses, cats, dogs etc.) let them know what is going on, the new legislation will impact on every aspect of pet ownership and every pet owner in this country, not just reptiles. For example, how many cat owners out there realise that they will have to conform to a code of practice on how to look after their cat and can be prosecuted if they do it differently?!

- If you see an article in your local newspaper or an item on the local news on that killer royal or man eating iguana, or how all reptiles are ripped from the wild for the cruel pet trade to languish and die within a yr, don't ignore it, write in, complain, set the record straight! If you need background information and statistics etc. contact the FBH. We have a large archive of material which you can tap into to make your response factual - the best defence against the antis lies and propaganda.

Sign the petitions
- Despite comments that these are just ignored, organised formal petitions should be supported and will have an impact. Just look at the road taxing hooha recently. If nothing else, large numbers of signatories will make the government take notice that there is a large body of disgruntled people they should not ignore! And we're not just talking reptile keepers here, this affects every pet owner in this country so get them signing too, that's millions of people!

Support your local club
- The local clubs and herp societies are the backbone of the hobby going into the future. It is highly likely, as in the case of shows, that only official bona fide clubs and societies will be recognised in law and membership required to qualify as a hobbyist. They will also form the basis of any joint cooperation with the legislators and enforcers - at the end of the day would you rather the rspca set the rules or decided if you're looking after your cornsnake properly, or would you prefer it to come from people who actually know what they're talking about? Without membership support the clubs will fold, if the recognised centres of expertise disappear there will inevitably be a weaker voice for our hobby.

Hope this helps a bit and if you want to get in tough for more info, to share your suggestions and ideas, or to offer help, you can contact the 
FBH at [email protected]


----------



## tigger79

Welcome to the forum Nils, glad you found us, dam wot a 1st post lol.


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## bite_me

I like the idea of local clubs but I don't think most people will know where their local club is (I know I don't), do you have a list so that people can look into it?


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## royalpython

I've signed it now.

Nills, i also copied your message here and have sent it round most people in my e-mail address book


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## royalpython

I just had a look on the RSPCA website...

Whats this they're saying about the AWB?



> *It is important to remember that most pet owners will not need to change the way they care for their animals to comply with the new law - most people already provide for their pet's needs.
> 
> The law is not designed to catch people out - only to help protect animals that do not receive proper care.
> *


Are they tricking us? lol


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## ratboy

That is the sticking point in a nutshell. 

*The law is not designed to catch people out - only to help protect animals that do not receive proper care.

*Who decides what 'proper care' for a Royal Python is ? Big viv or small viv ? Rack or Viv ? How long can it go without food before it's deemed as not receiving proper care ?


----------



## royalpython

yup!

The only help they will give a happy royal will probably be by lethal injection.. in fact... i really would like to see how they decide whether a royal is happy. There's evidence that suggests royals know their keepers, and when an outsider holds them, they do seem a bit shy.. act differently than they would with me etc... so it would be bang out of order if the expert came in and handled a royal and then quickly pressumes.. "oh sorry, you're going to court..."


----------



## HABU

time for you all to step up to the plate it seems. if all that was going on here in that way, i know there would be a stink raised. hate to think that your hobby may get canned or more restrictive. it's all about being organised and being of one voice.


----------



## Nerys

blimey... awb and how it doesn't affect us... NOT..

is this a good way to get the bunny brigade involved? should add thats not derogatory.. i am part of the bunny brigade these days...

eBay.co.uk: Log Cabin rabbit hutch 4X2X2 & massive 6X4X2 run M/MM (item 220101378237 end time 20-Apr-07 19:42:27 BST)

these guys are now making it very clear what the effects are on the rabbit keepers...

xxxx IS A FAMILY RUN BUISNESS THAT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED OVER 40 YEARS WE ONLY SOURCE HIGH QUALITY PRODUCTS.

IN APRIL THE ANIMAL WELFARE ACT WILL COME IN TO FORCE MEANING YOU NEED A HUTCH 2FT WIDE & 2FT DEEP TO HOUSE YOUR RABBIT. 

Space allowances

28. When planning new accommodation or modifying existing buildings account should be taken of the size of the breed and natural behaviour of the animals, which includes hopping, sitting with ears erect and play.

29. The total floor area should be sufficient to enable the rabbits to move around and to feed and drink without difficulty. Accommodation should allow sufficient area so that all rabbits can lie on their sides other than at times when nesting boxes are used. The following space allowances, which are in use commercially, should be regarded as absolute minimum:



SYSTEM =MINIMUM FLOOR SPACE
In cages 
Doe and litter to 5 weeks of age 0.56 m2 total area
Doe and litter to 8 weeks of age 0.74 m2 total area
Rabbits 5 to 12 weeks of age 0.07 m2 per rabbit
Rabbits 12 weeks and over

(other than those used for breeding)
(multiple occupation cages) 0.18 m2 per rabbit
Adult does and bucks for breeding =0.56 m2 per rabbit

In hutches 
Doe and litter to 5 weeks of age = 0.75 m2 total area
Doe and litter to 8 weeks of age = 0.93 m2 total area
Rabbits 5 to 12 weeks of age = 0.009 m2 per rabbit
Adults does and bucks for breeding = 0.75 m2 per rabbit



30. Accommodation for rabbits over 12 weeks of age should be not less than 45 cm high, or of sufficient height to allow rabbits to sit upright with ears fully erect.

31. The nest box should be large enough to enable the doe to get into and out of it to feed the young without injuring them. As a guide, the nest box should be a minimum length of 30 cm and have a minimum floor area of 0.08 m2 but a larger area should be allowed for giant breeds.

THE SIZE YOU GET:

HUTCH = 4ft x 2ft x 2ft width x depth x height

RUN = 6ft x 4ft x 2ft width x depth x height

etc etc etc...


heads up the "it won't happen" brigade..

N


----------



## captaincaveman

Nerys said:


> blimey... awb and how it doesn't affect us... NOT..
> 
> is this a good way to get the bunny brigade involved? should add thats not derogatory.. i am part of the bunny brigade these days...
> 
> eBay.co.uk: Log Cabin rabbit hutch 4X2X2 & massive 6X4X2 run M/MM (item 220101378237 end time 20-Apr-07 19:42:27 BST)
> 
> these guys are now making it very clear what the effects are on the rabbit keepers...
> 
> xxxx IS A FAMILY RUN BUISNESS THAT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED OVER 40 YEARS WE ONLY SOURCE HIGH QUALITY PRODUCTS.
> 
> IN APRIL THE ANIMAL WELFARE ACT WILL COME IN TO FORCE MEANING YOU NEED A HUTCH 2FT WIDE & 2FT DEEP TO HOUSE YOUR RABBIT.
> 
> Space allowances
> 
> 28. When planning new accommodation or modifying existing buildings account should be taken of the size of the breed and natural behaviour of the animals, which includes hopping, sitting with ears erect and play.
> 
> 29. The total floor area should be sufficient to enable the rabbits to move around and to feed and drink without difficulty. Accommodation should allow sufficient area so that all rabbits can lie on their sides other than at times when nesting boxes are used. The following space allowances, which are in use commercially, should be regarded as absolute minimum:
> 
> 
> 
> SYSTEM =MINIMUM FLOOR SPACE
> In cages
> Doe and litter to 5 weeks of age 0.56 m2 total area
> Doe and litter to 8 weeks of age 0.74 m2 total area
> Rabbits 5 to 12 weeks of age 0.07 m2 per rabbit
> Rabbits 12 weeks and over
> 
> (other than those used for breeding)
> (multiple occupation cages) 0.18 m2 per rabbit
> Adult does and bucks for breeding =0.56 m2 per rabbit
> 
> In hutches
> Doe and litter to 5 weeks of age = 0.75 m2 total area
> Doe and litter to 8 weeks of age = 0.93 m2 total area
> Rabbits 5 to 12 weeks of age = 0.009 m2 per rabbit
> Adults does and bucks for breeding = 0.75 m2 per rabbit
> 
> 
> 
> 30. Accommodation for rabbits over 12 weeks of age should be not less than 45 cm high, or of sufficient height to allow rabbits to sit upright with ears fully erect.
> 
> 31. The nest box should be large enough to enable the doe to get into and out of it to feed the young without injuring them. As a guide, the nest box should be a minimum length of 30 cm and have a minimum floor area of 0.08 m2 but a larger area should be allowed for giant breeds.
> 
> THE SIZE YOU GET:
> 
> HUTCH = 4ft x 2ft x 2ft width x depth x height
> 
> RUN = 6ft x 4ft x 2ft width x depth x height
> 
> etc etc etc...
> 
> 
> heads up the "it won't happen" brigade..
> 
> N


 
where in the act does it mention minimum sizes? thats a question, not a statement:lol2:


----------



## Nerys

sections 28-31 ???

pass is the answer to that tbh... but someones clearly looked it up 

i wonder if they have a guide line for snakes.. 

N


----------



## captaincaveman

Nerys said:


> sections 28-31 ???
> 
> pass is the answer to that tbh... but someones clearly looked it up
> 
> i wonder if they have a guide line for snakes..
> 
> N


 
28-31 covers 

28- inspecting farm premises
29- inspection relating to community obligations
30- powers of local authority to prosecute offences
31- time limits for prosecutions

the bill itself is only 54 pages so hasn't enough room to go into the specifics of individual familys let alone species

the defra site says that for the specific needs to contact your local club or vetinarian


Its all a bit vague on specifics

heres the link on what defra syas about your animals needs


Defra, UK - Animal Health and Welfare - Animal Welfare - Animal Welfare Bill

so not sure where the hutch builders got his info from, unless its from a vet or a rabbit club/organisation or possibly the rspca's care sheet but its not specifically from the bill


----------



## Nerys

Mmm maybe i'll message him and ask..

N


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## darkdan99

the information (sizes etc) can be found on DEFRA's website, http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/farmed/othersps/rabbits/pb0080/rabcode.htm


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## darkdan99

yes i did sit for 20 mins finding a resource i dont effect me in the slightest, the only rabbits i will have are likely to be frozen ones!

but hey, passes the time..


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## royalpython

Information from defra..



> *How many pet animals are there in the UK?*
> 
> There are no official figures for the numbers of pet animals kept in the UK. Owners do not have to register or license them and they are not included in any census. However, the Petfood Manufacturers Association carries out surveys and estimated that in 2001 there were around 7.5 million cats, 6.1 million dogs, 1.1 million rabbits, 0.9 million hamsters and 0.7 million guinea pigs in the UK. The Federation of British Herpetologists estimates that there are around 5 million snakes, lizards etc kept as pets.


Surely the antis realise they could have a war on their hands by trying to ban this many people from looking after animals... that was in 2001.


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## ratboy

I wonder what would happen if the RSPCA sanctuaries were investigated by a team of experts in light of the AWB ? 

Presumably the local authorities for where the RSPCA are based would have to be seen to check them out before they handed over policing of the bill to them.... and even if the Local Authority are policing it themselves, presumably the RSPCA and other 'Organisations' are just as bound by the AWB as anybody else.

Maybe letters to the Local Authorities asking what the state of play is would be in order ?

It would be pretty hypocritical if an organisation that will potentially be given the powers to take animals to remove animals before they have suffered any harm do not have the facilities to care for that animal themselves.


----------



## captaincaveman

ratboy said:


> I wonder what would happen if the RSPCA sanctuaries were investigated by a team of experts in light of the AWB ?
> 
> Presumably the local authorities for where the RSPCA are based would have to be seen to check them out before they handed over policing of the bill to them.... and even if the Local Authority are policing it themselves, presumably the RSPCA and other 'Organisations' are just as bound by the AWB as anybody else.
> 
> Maybe letters to the Local Authorities asking what the state of play is would be in order ?
> 
> It would be pretty hypocritical if an organisation that will potentially be given the powers to take animals to remove animals before they have suffered any harm do not have the facilities to care for that animal themselves.


Very true, i wonder if the housing for their cats and dogs allow the animals to exhibit natural behaviour


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## KenMan

captaincaveman said:


> Very true, i wonder if the housing for their cats and dogs allow the animals to exhibit natural behaviour


Now thats a very good point....They never really have the best of times there, the cages are reasonably small, compared to a house, and when at someones house they would get walked too, which I dont think happens at rescue places


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## captaincaveman

KenMan said:


> Now thats a very good point....They never really have the best of times there, the cages are reasonably small, compared to a house, and when at someones house they would get walked too, which I dont think happens at rescue places


Plus we all know what domestic cats natural behaviour is, do the rspca allow them out to exhibit their hunting techniques that are apparent to most pet cats:lol2:


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## gaz

if i remember rightly,the original and most wanted plan of the anti brigade was to adopt the German system of cage sizing per species of snake,i did mention this earlier and it will surely come even if its just as a matter of course in the way of standardisation of EU rules of everything,for a boa the minimum height of cage was 1.2-1.5metre depending on which district you live in,cant remember the lengths except that for lizards the minimum cage length was 3X the maximum adult length of the lizard,so monitor keepers had better move to bigger premises i guess.
The crux of all this at the moment is WHETHER it will be policed or whether it will rely on private reporting/snitching, this country is awash with crappy laws that dont get serious policing and are only used as and when offences come to light by accident,certainly some one some where is going to be ****ed over as a test case to set precedents in law which can be used later,same with the animal transport regs,so best behaviour and lets hope its none of us who gets used a a guinea pig,though if you do,be sure to excercise your new found rights as a guinea pig under the AWB,probably get better treatment than being just a British national
regards gaz


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## royalpython

it sure would be handy to know these things, i have got to plan what i'm doing with all mine, and hearing all the different rule's they "might" bring in is starting to make my blood boil 

above one metre for a boa.. then surely all these 6ft long viv's are just plain useless now, and i was going to get one for our boa.


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## gaz

who can tell,herptek sell cages in Germany and France where regulations are far stricter than here but i have never seen a 3X1.5X2metre herptek cage??? i have seen some german breeders setups for boas though and the cages are immense,one i saw for a pair of redtails had patio doors as a front,dont know if this was to comply with regs or just a personal thing though,the snakes inside were in the 8-9 foot range,cage about 8 foot high and room sized
regards gaz
need to talk to some german breeders and see how they do things,as for my cages i'm gonna hangfire and wait an see


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## gaz

being in the lucky situation of having a spare house which can be devoted entirely to snakes,half of it is already(3 snake rooms so far) i had a quick look round and under some sort of semblane of German regs i could just possibly, with a lot of expense,house my adult and subadult snakes using every square inch of space,but this would leave needing another facility(ya just gotta love that word)to house any neonate and yearling animals,a distinct pain in the butt situation
regards gaz


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## ratboy

It's a good job you have a spare house... Word is that the AWB will force snake owners to keep snakes in vivariums big enough for the snake to stretch out without touching the sides.

This will make the smallest vivarium size for an adult corn snake have a length of at least 5 feet.

Before anyone asks, there is no official documentation for this, it's just what the RSPCA have allegedly quoted. Every pet species will have a Code of Practice on how it should be kept and this is reported to be in the code of practice being proposed for snakes.


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## peaches

Every pet species???? wow they have got some serious amount of guidelines to draw up then, since even a large group of herpers all have different opinions, how on earth are they going to choose.........unless these are written in conjunction with BHS/FBH/IHS.

So anyway, what can we, all pet keepers do now??

This bill has gone through, can it be changed, amended now? It's ok writing to my MP (again) but on what stance? If this can be changed then ok......where do we start?

For me it's the natural behaviour side that makes rep keeping impossible, and and what size enclosures.


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## tigger79

Wel i have spoken to some one who is well up on the AWB, which has been in force for many years, so this is not new at all.

we as reptile keepers have nothing to worry about, all the changes in the new AWB, are to stop commercial breeders selling at shows, and to ensure that animal keepers ensure there animals are looked after properly, 

they will never bring in a complete ban on keeping animals as the pet industry brings in over 3.5 billion pound per year, could you imagine how the government is going to explain the increase in unemployment and benifit claims, just to satisfy the AR

The AR, want a complete ban on keeping animals, but the government wont do this, the RSPCA does not condole what the AR do, as if the ban was ever gonna happen, then they would go outta business to.

as for the sizing of housing requirements, there is not one person who can say what is best, for your animals.


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## yid219

tigger79 said:


> we as reptile keepers have nothing to worry about, all the changes in the new AWB, are to stop commercial breeders selling at shows, and to ensure that animal keepers ensure there animals are looked after properly,


Nice to hear that we have nothing to worry about !!!!!!!!!


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## royalpython

*sighs*...

Tigger, i've been waiting for a response like that for some time now


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## ratboy

tigger79 said:


> Wel i have spoken to some one who is well up on the AWB, which has been in force for many years, so this is not new at all.


Has it ? According to parliament, it came in in November last year to replace the old bill that was out of date and needed 'Modernising'. Who is it that thinks it has been in place for many years ? are they as 'well up' on the AWB as FOCAS ? ... FOCAS, the group who DO think we have a lot to worry about and have been tracking the AWB since its conception ?



> we as reptile keepers have nothing to worry about, all the changes in the new AWB, are to stop commercial breeders selling at shows, *and to ensure that animal keepers ensure there animals are looked after properly,
> *


and who defines what *'properly'* means exactly ? If you read through the thread, you will find that *properly* is defined by the local authority who police the AWB... and as they have no extra money to do so, in a large number of cases, it will fall to the RSPCA to police.



> The AR, want a complete ban on keeping animals, but the government wont do this, the RSPCA does not condole what the AR do, as if the ban was ever gonna happen, then they would go outta business to.


Is your source a member of the RSPCA by any chance ? Could they possibly come on and explain exactly why we have nothing to worry about ? could they also explain how the CoP's that are being drafted to support the 'Duty of Care' that the AWB centres around will affect how we keep our animals ? or why the RSPCA do not think that caged animals make good pets ? or why they claim that it is not possible to keep reptiles alive for longer than one year in captivity ? or the truth behind the claims that a number of the ruling council are members of Animal Aid, a group that *DO* want animal keeping banned ?



> as for the sizing of housing requirements, there is not one person who can say what is best, for your animals.


Yes there is... It's the CoP's that will be created for the keeping of reptile species.

After over 37 pages of evidence and links to that evidence and posts from members of FOCAS that know as much about the bill as anyone in the country, we have one post where someone who is 'well in' to the AWB but does not know when it even started and there are mumblings of 'oh, that's OK then... we can all stop worrying."

Unbelievable :hmm:


----------



## Chris Newman

tigger79 said:


> Wel i have spoken to some one who is well up on the AWB, which has been in force for many years, so this is not new at all.
> 
> we as reptile keepers have nothing to worry about, all the changes in the new AWB, are to stop commercial breeders selling at shows, and to ensure that animal keepers ensure there animals are looked after properly,
> 
> they will never bring in a complete ban on keeping animals as the pet industry brings in over 3.5 billion pound per year, could you imagine how the government is going to explain the increase in unemployment and benifit claims, just to satisfy the AR
> 
> The AR, want a complete ban on keeping animals, but the government wont do this, the RSPCA does not condole what the AR do, as if the ban was ever gonna happen, then they would go outta business to.
> 
> as for the sizing of housing requirements, there is not one person who can say what is best, for your animals.


 
This information is entirely incorrect, the Animal Welfare Act 2006 came into force on the 6th of April this year. This new Act is the most significant piece of legislation to affect keepers for over a hundred years – it has the potential to END reptile keeping in the UK. I strongly suggest that people do NOT underestimate the potential of this new legislation.

The Act the is underpinned by what are called ‘Codes of Practice’ (CoP), they are the cornerstone. If you are keeping an animal but not complying with the relevant CoP then you can be prosecuted by the RSPCA. AS yet there are no CoPs agreed, however, they are your only defence in law!

The RSPCA are now stating that a snake must be able to lay outstretched and not touch either end of the vivarium – how will that affect keepers in general!


----------



## royalpython

> After over 37 pages of evidence and links to that evidence and posts from members of FOCAS that know as much about the bill as anyone in the country, we have one post where someone who is 'well in' to the AWB but does not know when it even started and there are mumblings of 'oh, that's OK then... we can all stop worrying."


I was sure I heard that there had always been the 5 freedoms... but because i'm still new to all this CoP's etc... i wouldn't know how much it has changed.. i've only ever read books on animal keeping.. this is new to me. I'm only just learning who is in FOCAS... i'm assuming Nills, and Chris are?


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## ratboy

Yes. Chris is the chairman of it.

FOCAS: the animal welfare bill


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## royalpython

oh dear.. well, now i feel a tad silly


----------



## Issa

> The Act the is underpinned by what are called ‘Codes of Practice’ (CoP), they are the cornerstone. If you are keeping an animal but not complying with the relevant CoP then you can be prosecuted by the RSPCA. AS yet there are no CoPs agreed, however, they are your only defence in law!
> 
> The RSPCA are now stating that a snake must be able to lay outstretched and not touch either end of the vivarium – how will that affect keepers in general!


Is it just the RSPCA that can do this or could theoretically anybody bring a private prosecution under the new laws? As already stated the RSPCA doesn't have anything set in law as yet but is already flexing its vocal muscles on standards it plans to implement. Logically the only way it can do this would be through a series of procecutions which would then set legal precedent for the rest of us, easiest way to do this is to find some poor ignorant joe public who has no idea about this act and how its going to affect them and crucify them in court. Wouldn't it be better to have the industry selecting and conducting its own test cases? An test action (for example regarding breeding racks) against one of the bigger livefood suppliers would be far likelier to fail (and set the right legal precedant) than against a backyard breeder that the Anti-mob has dug up from the middle of nowhere. Just a thought....


----------



## Dave_D

1 thing that confuses me the most here.

To me, dictating on the size of the viv that your animal stays in is a bit silly, WITHIN reason

For example, I have a small beardie, and if I take the size of her into consideration for the size of tank, then i will need a 3ft tank.

I have one of these, so I thought I would try her in it to be nice and allow her to have more room. Next thing I know is I have a depressed looking beardie on my hands!

The temps were correct, the substrate was correct, the humidity, rocks etc etc. I spoiled her basically! Next thing I knew that after a few days nothing had changed! She wouldnt bask, she wouldnt do anything! She sat in the cold area, her colours were darker than normal, stress lines, and everything! So I put her back into her slightly smaller tank and everything went back to normal! She is now happy again, started eating properly again, no stress lines, nothing! She is now back to her normal self! 
No joke but in the larger tank she even went to bite me and thats something that she has NEVER done, she has never even done the beardie hissing at me before till now! 
Now she is in the slightly smaller tank, everything is back to normal and she looks and acts happy again!

So how can someone justify what size a certain animal should be in? I stuck to "legislation" and my animal turned nasty, depressed, and stopped eating! But if I went slightly smaller, I got my pet back again!

To me, its not about listening to "rules and regulations", it should be about "listening to the animal!!"

We know our pets habits, temperament, and if their happy or not to a certain degree, so listeing to them is more important!

I had the same thing with my Royal, I changed his tank and he turned nasty and went for anyone who put their hand in, I changed him back and he was happy again...I have since changed him to a much larger tank now though, and I know he likes it as he is happy to be handled, does no hiss or strike, and is eating...So to me, as said before, listening to your pet is the best way to decide what is the best for them!!! Not some jumped up twat who doesnt even KEEP THESE ANIMALS!!!! Let alone, know what YOUR animal wants, as they are like humans, everyone has a different attitude, aswell as likes and dislikes!

If my animal wants a larger than specified cage, or a smaller one, then they will get it if it allows them to be happy, not what someone else tells me!


----------



## gaz

anyone can bring a prosecution under the new AWB
regards gaz


----------



## Chris Newman

Issa said:


> Is it just the RSPCA that can do this or could theoretically anybody bring a private prosecution under the new laws? As already stated the RSPCA doesn't have anything set in law as yet but is already flexing its vocal muscles on standards it plans to implement. Logically the only way it can do this would be through a series of procecutions which would then set legal precedent for the rest of us, easiest way to do this is to find some poor ignorant joe public who has no idea about this act and how its going to affect them and crucify them in court. Wouldn't it be better to have the industry selecting and conducting its own test cases? An test action (for example regarding breeding racks) against one of the bigger livefood suppliers would be far likelier to fail (and set the right legal precedant) than against a backyard breeder that the Anti-mob has dug up from the middle of nowhere. Just a thought....


The Act is a Common Informers Act, this means anyone can prosecute it. However, there are major problems: below is a response I gave earlier to similar question posted on another Forum – the same applies here.


The difficulty in defending a case now, is effectively ‘there is no defence available’!! Under the Act your primary defence is you have complied with the Code of Practice, however there are no codes agreed!!!!!!! 

What people need to understand is that RSPCA prosecutions are Private Prosecutions, so they are not vetted by a impartial third party as are police or SPCA prosecutions. Due to changes in the Legal Aid system unless you are a habitual criminal you have very little chance of getting Legal Aid for defending yourself. So the only defence you have is what you can afford.

The RSPCA throw huge financial resources at prosecutions, so to stand any chance of winning your case you would need to do the same. A typical RSPCA case would cost you £10,000 - £20,000 to defend! As there are no codes to use as a defence you would be reliant on hiring expert witness, if you hire one the RSPCA will hire two, if you get two they will get four, and so on. 

I should also mention that if you do loose you will be liable for some or all of the RSPCA prosecution costs! 

If prosecuted by the RSPCA your cheapest option is to plead guilty, doesn’t mater if you are guilty or not its your cheapest option. The average fine is usually about £300, or you can fight and risqué costs of £40,000 – which would you go for!


----------



## gaz

Dave_D said:


> 1 thing that confuses me the most here.
> 
> To me, dictating on the size of the viv that your animal stays in is a bit silly, WITHIN reason
> 
> For example, I have a small beardie, and if I take the size of her into consideration for the size of tank, then i will need a 3ft tank.
> 
> I have one of these, so I thought I would try her in it to be nice and allow her to have more room. Next thing I know is I have a depressed looking beardie on my hands!
> 
> The temps were correct, the substrate was correct, the humidity, rocks etc etc. I spoiled her basically! Next thing I knew that after a few days nothing had changed! She wouldnt bask, she wouldnt do anything! She sat in the cold area, her colours were darker than normal, stress lines, and everything! So I put her back into her slightly smaller tank and everything went back to normal! She is now happy again, started eating properly again, no stress lines, nothing! She is now back to her normal self!
> No joke but in the larger tank she even went to bite me and thats something that she has NEVER done, she has never even done the beardie hissing at me before till now!
> Now she is in the slightly smaller tank, everything is back to normal and she looks and acts happy again!
> 
> So how can someone justify what size a certain animal should be in? I stuck to "legislation" and my animal turned nasty, depressed, and stopped eating! But if I went slightly smaller, I got my pet back again!
> 
> To me, its not about listening to "rules and regulations", it should be about "listening to the animal!!"
> 
> We know our pets habits, temperament, and if their happy or not to a certain degree, so listeing to them is more important!
> 
> I had the same thing with my Royal, I changed his tank and he turned nasty and went for anyone who put their hand in, I changed him back and he was happy again...I have since changed him to a much larger tank now though, and I know he likes it as he is happy to be handled, does no hiss or strike, and is eating...So to me, as said before, listening to your pet is the best way to decide what is the best for them!!! Not some jumped up twat who doesnt even KEEP THESE ANIMALS!!!! Let alone, know what YOUR animal wants, as they are like humans, everyone has a different attitude, aswell as likes and dislikes!
> 
> If my animal wants a larger than specified cage, or a smaller one, then they will get it if it allows them to be happy, not what someone else tells me!


your in the same boat as all of us,its likely that the RSPCA will get to approve cage sizes in the Duty of Care part of the bill,these rules have yet to be written,although the RSPCA have already begun comming up with "recomendations" if we are'nt careful they could easily become law,up to us really
regards gaz


----------



## Issa

so hypothetically gaz you could bring a test case against yourself for the whole rack idea? Or against any other well prepared breeder whom would have little trouble defeating and making legal history?


----------



## Issa

Chris Newman said:


> The Act is a Common Informers Act, this means anyone can prosecute it. However, there are major problems: below is a response I gave earlier to similar question posted on another Forum – the same applies here.
> 
> 
> The difficulty in defending a case now, is effectively ‘there is no defence available’!! Under the Act your primary defence is you have complied with the Code of Practice, however there are no codes agreed!!!!!!!
> 
> What people need to understand is that RSPCA prosecutions are Private Prosecutions, so they are not vetted by a impartial third party as are police or SPCA prosecutions. Due to changes in the Legal Aid system unless you are a habitual criminal you have very little chance of getting Legal Aid for defending yourself. So the only defence you have is what you can afford.
> 
> The RSPCA throw huge financial resources at prosecutions, so to stand any chance of winning your case you would need to do the same. A typical RSPCA case would cost you £10,000 - £20,000 to defend! As there are no codes to use as a defence you would be reliant on hiring expert witness, if you hire one the RSPCA will hire two, if you get two they will get four, and so on.
> 
> I should also mention that if you do loose you will be liable for some or all of the RSPCA prosecution costs!
> 
> If prosecuted by the RSPCA your cheapest option is to plead guilty, doesn’t mater if you are guilty or not its your cheapest option. The average fine is usually about £300, or you can fight and risqué costs of £40,000 – which would you go for!


The fact that there is no legal defence available at this time would seem to heighten the need to bring a suitable test case at the earliest oppitunity. If through a legal precident you can prove that a practice is acceptable, before it is challenged by the AR groups wouldn't that put you in a stronger position? Also by doing it ourselves and cutting the RSPCA out of the process it does give some measure of control on what changes take place.


----------



## wohic

has no one ever picked up on the fact that the RSPCA are acting politically (and always have) yet this is against charity commisoin guide lines.......They should have their charitable status removed.

Tigger..... how I wish it were true, at the moment the inforcers have all the power as the guidlines and the bill as it stands can be twisted and turned to suit there arguments every time.


----------



## Chris Newman

I would not disagree, the question is who would fund such an action! It is also important to understand that legal presidents are not set in Magistrates Courts, only in Crown or High Courts. To take a case against the RSPCA would I suspect cost £250,000 or so, if you loose then they can claim there costs against you! It would be very costly, and potentially very dangerous to take the RSPCA on.


----------



## Chris Newman

Issa said:


> The fact that there is no legal defence available at this time would seem to heighten the need to bring a suitable test case at the earliest oppitunity. If through a legal precident you can prove that a practice is acceptable, before it is challenged by the AR groups wouldn't that put you in a stronger position? Also by doing it ourselves and cutting the RSPCA out of the process it does give some measure of control on what changes take place.


I would not disagree, the question is who would fund such an action! It is also important to understand that legal presidents are not set in Magistrates Courts, only in Crown or High Courts. To take a case against the RSPCA would I suspect cost £250,000 or so, if you loose then they can claim there costs against you! It would be very costly, and potentially very dangerous to take the RSPCA on.


----------



## wohic

i know I am repeting myself but............

What we need is a list of Facts, not hearsay, he said, she said, someone on the board told me....hard facts that can be backed up with links to the relivant paperwork. things like this are often burred as unimportant by local mps, (local planning issues usually being forfront) If someone could compile the cold hard facts that face animal owners then perhaps people would feel a bit 'better armed' when writing a letter/ telling neighbours/ visiting mps.
knowledge is power guys.


----------



## gaz

the fact that the RSPCA acts politically was brought up in parliament during one of the AWB debates,whether there will be any action is debateable,dont forget that mrs blair is very much AR and will no doubt bend her husbands ear on the issue much as she did with the hunting with dogs act
regards gaz


----------



## gaz

wohic said:


> i know I am repeting myself but............
> 
> What we need is a list of Facts, not hearsay, he said, she said, someone on the board told me....hard facts that can be backed up with links to the relivant paperwork. things like this are often burred as unimportant by local mps, (local planning issues usually being forfront) If someone could compile the cold hard facts that face animal owners then perhaps people would feel a bit 'better armed' when writing a letter/ telling neighbours/ visiting mps.
> knowledge is power guys.


go to the FOCAS website,everything is there from the minutes of parliamentary debate to the minutes and reports of DEFRA committees and much else besides
regards gaz
AWB: Ammendments Pet Fairs


----------



## wohic

perhaps a few of us should contact the Charity Commission Homepage and voice our concerns, after all all the smaller charitys have to stick to the guidelines or they lose there charity status


----------



## wohic

gaz said:


> go to the FOCAS website,everything is there from the minutes of parliamentary debate to the minutes and reports of DEFRA committees and much else besides
> regards gaz
> AWB: Ammendments Pet Fairs


 
yup I know, and I have used this, but perhaps some of the members wont.
it needs pulling from among all the other bumpf and putting simply.


----------



## Chris Newman

Animal Rights & the Future of the Pet Industry
http://the-shg.org/OATA.htm


----------



## Chris Newman

wohic said:


> perhaps a few of us should contact the Charity Commission Homepage and voice our concerns, after all all the smaller charitys have to stick to the guidelines or they lose there charity status


The Charity Commission are only concerned with a very narrow remit on how charitys spend there money, they are also usless in many other ways.

Here is something which may be of interest:

Animal Rights & the Future of the Pet Industry
http://the-shg.org/OATA.htm


----------



## Issa

Chris Newman said:


> I would not disagree, the question is who would fund such an action! It is also important to understand that legal presidents are not set in Magistrates Courts, only in Crown or High Courts. To take a case against the RSPCA would I suspect cost £250,000 or so, if you loose then they can claim there costs against you! It would be very costly, and potentially very dangerous to take the RSPCA on.


Easy, get together the people it affects the most and work from there. Uk breeders and importers who potentially face closure could probably be persuaded to contribute (if the alternative is rammed down their collective throats that if not they could and probably would lose everything). The american or european breeders and importers may also be persuaded to come to the party if they feel the uk market is viable enough to pay to keep.


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## wohic

yup i have that bookmarked and have linked a lot of people back to it.


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## Issa

Yep seen that one before, made for very interesting reading.


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## Dave_D

I will add another thing, I bet that atleast 90% of people on here have animals that are in tip top health, and have the best set ups needed for that animal, the other 10% are learning from here and other reputable sites

I personally have to make sure my animals are kept well as my sister is a fully qualified vetinary nurse and has degree's in all parts of animal health and care and in most jobs she has done, she has went in at the top and has been the head vetinary nurse at 2 or more places!

If I mistreated my animals, she would hunt me down and kick my ass!!! lol!

And the vet that she used to work with is a good vet, the 1st thing he does to any reptile owners who take theirs in for check ups and that, is he puts the animal to 1 side and asks you lots of questions about your temps, substrate, humidity etc just to make sure your animal is kept well, if there is something wrong he will correct you on your knowledge, he did with me and it helped

Thats the sort of thing we need, not some jumped up idiot who knows nothing, just dictating different things that they learned from a book!


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## candoia aspera

has anyone seen this?? lots of info on here 

:: View Forum - Animal Welfare Bill


----------



## SiUK

wohic said:


> i know I am repeting myself but............
> 
> What we need is a list of Facts, not hearsay, he said, she said, someone on the board told me....hard facts that can be backed up with links to the relivant paperwork. things like this are often burred as unimportant by local mps, (local planning issues usually being forfront) If someone could compile the cold hard facts that face animal owners then perhaps people would feel a bit 'better armed' when writing a letter/ telling neighbours/ visiting mps.
> knowledge is power guys.


 
I couldnt agree more, all these rumors going around are making it sound like any day now are pets are gonna get banned


----------



## gaz

yep,exactly how it panned out with self loading rifles,then pistols then hunting,rumours,inactivity and gone,the purpose of my two threads is to get people thinking and hopefully acting to have their input now,before the duty of care rules are written,in this way we could just possibly have then written in a sensible manner that wont cause conflict between the welfare of our animals and the way we are allowed to keep them,afterall if there is anyone here who is not primarily concerned with the welfare and health of their animals then they shouldnt be keeping them.
we have a wealth of experience in this matter and we should be the primary people writing the rules on herps,not people who dont keep them,have little knowledge of them and who have stated their opposition to keeping them.
regards gaz


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## captaincaveman

gaz said:


> yep,exactly how it panned out with self loading rifles,then pistols then hunting,rumours,inactivity and gone,the purpose of my two threads is to get people thinking and hopefully acting to have their input now,before the duty of care rules are written,in this way we could just possibly have then written in a sensible manner that wont cause conflict between the welfare of our animals and the way we are allowed to keep them,afterall if there is anyone here who is not primarily concerned with the welfare and health of their animals then they shouldnt be keeping them.
> we have a wealth of experience in this matter and we should be the primary people writing the rules on herps,not people who dont keep them,have little knowledge of them and who have stated their opposition to keeping them.
> regards gaz


with respect of the gun laws, they tightned more than anything, its still possible to own a pump action 12 bore at 14(with conditions) and people in the uk can still own semi-automatic rifles, which serve no purpose to either the target shooters or pest control

Its not all doom and gloom though peeps:2thumb:


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## ratboy

and how do we get our input into the contents of the CoP's gaz ?


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## gaz

but people always tend to look at the situation today and say its not all bad,try asking some one who was shooting 60 years ago and see what they say,things have changed mightily and mostly for the worst as far as freedom goes,to say we can still do this or that is to miss the point,not that long ago we could do very much more,the younger people here simply didnt experience those freedoms and accept the presnt situation as being as good as it gets,maybe in ten years when we are allowed to keep a very small range of snakes people will say the same,then i will say i can remember being able to work with pretty much anything such as my ruschenbergeri.
regards gaz


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## captaincaveman

gaz said:


> but people always tend to look at the situation today and say its not all bad,try asking some one who was shooting 60 years ago and see what they say,things have changed mightily and mostly for the worst as far as freedom goes,to say we can still do this or that is to miss the point,not that long ago we could do very much more,the younger people here simply didnt experience those freedoms and accept the presnt situation as being as good as it gets,maybe in ten years when we are allowed to keep a very small range of snakes people will say the same,then i will say i can remember being able to work with pretty much anything such as my ruschenbergeri.
> regards gaz


 
yeah, agreed, but my point was that with the gun laws changing, it wasn't as bad as was expected, it was mainly pistols that were affected. i was expecting semi-autos to be banned purely on the point of no-purpose and there would have been little argument to why they should be kept


I think with all this at the moment, i dont believe theres not going to be a ban in the near future, the first things potentially going to happen will be the issue of viv size etc and complying to the CoP, and in all honesty the rspca aren't going to be going house to house searching for reptiles, they need to be reported to and then IF people are reported, by law they have to give you a improvement order(or whatever its called) as stated in the AWB


----------



## ratboy

But why does it matter how long it takes to get what they want ? These people are in it for the long haul... first this... then that... chip... chip... chip... all making it harder and less appealing to keep pets.


----------



## peaches

So what do we reptile keepers do now? and what are we aiming for?

In my mind all we can now aim for is that an organisation such as the FBH/FOCAS are involved with the 'duty of care'

On this page Defra, UK - Animal Health and Welfare - Animal Welfare - Animal Welfare Bill it asks.

*I’m not really sure what this would mean in practice. Where can I find more information to help me properly care for my pet?*

The reply is to contact a vet or a specific club or society, about the duty of care...........there's a list of some society, but alas no reptile one???? Why??

Defra, UK - Animal health and welfare - Animal welfare - Domestic animals this page here talks about the Companion Animal Welfare Council (CAWC) I'm sorry but I haven't come across these before, who are they? anyone know what they are doing for the pet keeping public??

Yes I have looked at their site but still none the wiser, and defra says they have consulted with them with regards to the Act.


----------



## HABU

well said, gaz,
it's a basic erosion of rights. and it applies to all things. the fact that the older generation gets so pissed and the younger generation accepts it as the status quo. there is a dichotomy there(way big word for me) and the older folks are probibly more silent than the mainstream. but then again, they may feel that everything is going to hell in a handbasket. give them an inch.....


----------



## SiUK

I see what you mean about our rights and what we can and cant do, but comparing the firearms laws to keeping reptiles is a bit extreme, also people can still go shooting with shotguns or liscensed hunting rifles to clubs, just not hand guns or automatic rifles and such, which is fair enough in my opinion, guns are very dangerous as was proved in the US last week, common reptiles are hardly dangerous and the ones that are, are strictly regulated.


----------



## Dave_D

the way I see it, is if they decided the best way would be to give more information about viv sizes etc, and make it law to have a licence or something, then to be honest, I would definately have one if it meant that was the only way I was allowed to keep my snake!

I would do all I can to be able to keep him, and in case anyone asks, yes I have signed all the petitions as posted up...I wont want to have to get rid of him, or get him destroyed, it would upset me big time!

I think the other reason is all the jumped up idiots who dictate everything to us, probably dont understand how we can get attatched to our reptiles. All becuase thier not fluffy and in their eyes, not cute, they dont understand that they still have their own personality, and they trust us as much as we can trust them!

I think alot of this boils down to 1 thing.......................
SEVERE under education on these animals, both on the government side, aswell as the keepers who arent looking after their animals the way they should....And if we could help towards educating more people, then I can see an improvement possibly happening!

I cant help but say it enough, but education, education, education! This would be the key to helping our cause!

Steve Irwin educated many people, and it is a shame that he is no longer with us, the teachings of that man helped people to open their eyes that not all snakes are "slimey, cold, venomous, 20ft man eaters" and not all Lizards want to bite your eyes out or try to rip your head off! If we could all help towards teaching more to other people, then it may help more people relax and realise that what animals we keep, are still as much of a companion to us as a dog is to others!
I keep my snake for the fact of its easier to keep than a dog, doesnt need walked every day, doesnt need to be let outside to do its business, and he is alot cheaper and easier to care for, and doesnt need constant attention or brushing, and doesnt leave hair all around the house, plus no1 I know is allergic to them, but I am allergic to cats!
I live in a top floor flat (2nd floor anyway) and its unfair to keep a dog in their as they dont have the freedom to go outside when they choose, so I decided to keep an animal that will be happy in the conditions, and reptiles were the answer!

I can bet that many people went down the same route aswell, and found reptiles were the best animal for the living arrangements we have


----------



## gaz

FOCAS is the best bet for getting input,Chris,Nils and the rest have done sterling work so far in liasing with government,maybe they have some ideas
regards gaz


----------



## gaz

SiUK said:


> I see what you mean about our rights and what we can and cant do, but comparing the firearms laws to keeping reptiles is a bit extreme, also people can still go shooting with shotguns or liscensed hunting rifles to clubs, just not hand guns or automatic rifles and such, which is fair enough in my opinion, guns are very dangerous as was proved in the US last week, common reptiles are hardly dangerous and the ones that are, are strictly regulated.


 
nothing extreme about it,in the past(recent) we could possess almost any type of firearm legally,little by little this has been reduced to a paltry selection that can now be legally owned,apply that to snakes,at the moment there is almost no limit on what species we keep,we are free to choose,however this could change,with a list of proscribed species deemed too dangerous for a start(DWA) as it stands,this can easily be added too by the wrong type of people being in charge,in the USA which is much more a free country than this large constrictors are added to the proscribed list almost continually,where does the list end? how about if the RSPCA for instance decide to come up with a list of species deemed to be impossible to keep? emerald tree boas etc,dont forget that their stated belief is that we cant keep snakes alive for over a year and that our collections must therefore be topped up with wc stock,they have no grasp of reality on this and worse still they dont want a grasp on reality as this would surely show their arguments to be false.
what we need are strongly supported regional groups headed by people prepared to liase and educate local government,after all its in their laps all this will land,we already have the basic infrastructure with herpetological clubs scattered round the country,i would suggest to all those casting around for something to do,spend a tenner and join your local group,pretty much the only thing that counts here are numbers,if the local councils go to the local herp club and ask for help as they may well do,hows it going to look if they club only has ten members?? if they have 1000 or 10,000 then any councillors with half a brain will be thinking lets not piss these people off,they are organised and in significant numbers,much more likely that they would then choose to work with us rather than just dictate to us,in any club/group there are always a proportion of people who love the adminstrative side of things,they just need financial clout and the backup of a large thriving membership.
this forum alone has enough people to form several regional clubs of this sort but i bet not 10% of the forum belong to anything,individually we may be stuffed but together we can be strong,first rule of fascism...stick together.
Basically its not the people who have been active on this thread who need to listen but the hundreds who havent even read it or couldnt be arsed to find it after being told,get their attention and memberships and we may just be cooking on gas,this fight isnt lost yet,we need to stop the RSPCA et al bending the bill out of shape for their own crooked purposes.
dont forget if you join any of the herper clubs you are automatically affiliated to the rest,so its regional and national support all in one,could be the most significant £10 you will ever spend.
regards gaz


----------



## gaz

just a thought as with other things i have been involved with,we are all very individualistic and would much rather be doing our own thing and looking after our snakes rather than fighting this crap,the opposition would much rather stick together and work towards their group ends than be on their own doing their own thing.
there is obviously a fundamental difference of thinking and modes of operation between us and them which works against us,fortunately we do have people who will do this sort of job,and do it well,our support is all they need.


----------



## gaz

SiUK said:


> I see what you mean about our rights and what we can and cant do, but comparing the firearms laws to keeping reptiles is a bit extreme, also people can still go shooting with shotguns or liscensed hunting rifles to clubs, just not hand guns or automatic rifles and such, which is fair enough in my opinion, guns are very dangerous as was proved in the US last week, common reptiles are hardly dangerous and the ones that are, are strictly regulated.


PS there isnt a dangerous gun in the entire world,just dangerous people who will kill or maim, gun or no gun,golf clubs are good weapons for killing humans too you know
regards gaz


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## DaveM

very true, although golf clubs tend to bend real easy, anything can be used as a weapon though, and one thing I don't get is, when a snake escapes, or is freed everyone views rep keepers as not being able to look after their animals, yet more people are killed due to dogs, and there millions more loose cats and dogs, yet dog and cat keepers don't get viewed the same, for the most part it is the publics sterotyed misunderstanding of our animals that will also work against us


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## HABU

one day, corn snakes will be established in the U.K. wait and see. wild corns in england! just a matter of time


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## intravenous

HABU said:


> one day, corn snakes will be established in the U.K. wait and see. wild corns in england! just a matter of time


I dunno...I don't see them surving our winters :razz:.


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## ratboy

HABU said:


> one day, corn snakes will be established in the U.K. wait and see. wild corns in england! just a matter of time


With global warming that could well be true. We already have wild Aesculapian rat snakes that are presumably escaped pets, and I am certain that Russian and Korean rat snakes could survive our winters quite easily... however .... that's another topic


----------



## SiUK

gaz said:


> PS there isnt a dangerous gun in the entire world,just dangerous people who will kill or maim, gun or no gun,golf clubs are good weapons for killing humans too you know
> regards gaz


yes but guns like any assault rifle is designed for one purpose, and with a golf club or hammer or any other weapon including knives, well knives are a bit different because there is major problems with knife crime at the moment, but back on topic with a gun you can pull a trigger and bang someones dead you dont have to hit them or even go too close to them so its an obvious weapon of choice, you didnt see the bloke in Virginia running from classroom to classroom with a golf club caving peoples heads in.

And to say a guns not a dangerous object isnt true they are designed to be dangerous, it takes a person to pull the trigger but that doesnt stop the gun being dangerous. Yes a golf club is dangerous along with 1000's of other objects in the wrong hands but they are not specifically designed to kill.


----------



## captaincaveman

DaveM said:


> very true, although golf clubs tend to bend real easy, anything can be used as a weapon though, and one thing I don't get is, when a snake escapes, or is freed everyone views rep keepers as not being able to look after their animals, yet more people are killed due to dogs, and there millions more loose cats and dogs, yet dog and cat keepers don't get viewed the same, for the most part it is the publics sterotyed misunderstanding of our animals that will also work against us


 
Very true, look at the recent posts about snakes found, that makes more space in the press compared to someone who's intentionally hurt a cat or dog, cause reptiles are still not seen in the same regards as cats and dogs to the majority of people, but that seems to be changing and if i remember rightly, reptile keepers are growing quicker than anyother pet keepers


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## ratboy

Not sure if it's not held in the same regard over being rare to see. Rare = Newsworthy. Lost dogs and cats happens 24/7 all over the UK, so nobody is remotely interested other than the people that have lost it.

See a dog in the woods... big deal. See a Python or Boa in the woods... now that is pretty unusual. When was the last time you saw a TV program about a reptile that was not potentially dangerous to humans ? ... bad press is the only press they get. 

But the same can be said about dogs, they only get in the news when something happens... You dont get stories like "John Smith took his Bassett Hound for a walk this morning, it had a poo and they went home."


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## Dave_D

how many times has "dog attacks" been in the paper? Alot I say, look at the one at the beginning of the year when that poor girl got killed, but what made it worse was it was a family dog!

Yet none of my animals I own could even hurt a baby let alone an adult!


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## ratboy

this is not about which animals are the most dangerous though... although I suspect that most of mine could do a lot of harm to a baby through constriction.

It's about standing side by side WITH dog owners and saying we want to keep our pets and we do know what we are doing when we look after them.


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## gaz

it takes a person to pull the trigger ...precisely,without the actions of a human being a gun is no more dangerous than an apple,irresponsible people are required in civilian life for it to be dangerous.
as for the arguments against assault rifles etc,thats exactly the argument used by AR groups,THEY dont want you to have something because THEY have decided you shouldnt,very similar oppression and control freaky thinking...the public are not responsible enough to own weapons etc etc

anyway enough of that who's joined a herp society to do something positive yet????.....anyone or cant we be bothered to put up a struggle
regards gaz


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## bite_me

I would join one but don't know if there are local ones as well as IHS & BHS. Is there a list anywhere, otherwise i'll join one of the others when I have the money.


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## ratboy

Who's any good at graphic design ? Posters ... and would be willing to give their services for free ?

Design a poster stating that the AWB is active and that it will affect all animal keepers and put the FOCAS web site address on it then make it public so everyone can print it ...

Then take it round to your local pet shops.


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## Ssthisto

ratboy said:


> Who's any good at graphic design ? Posters ... and would be willing to give their services for free ?
> 
> Design a poster stating that the AWB is active and that it will affect all animal keepers and put the FOCAS web site address on it then make it public so everyone can print it ...
> 
> Then take it round to your local pet shops.


I have something like this in mind at the moment.

I'll show off the design once I've finalised it.


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## HABU

don't you guys have any "wilderness" over there? any places where you can get lost? guns and other thing might make more sense if you have wild places. no grizzlies or black bears or wolves or cougars? do you all go backpacking and fish in the remotes? are your wild places more like a groomed park? do you have anything like kentucky? i'm not dogging you but growing up without nature is a little strange to me. please don't cuss me out but so many of you are nature lovers and it seems, nature is hard to find there. i'm not dissing you but it seems a shame.... just being honest, habu U.S.A.


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## ratboy

Ssthisto said:


> I have something like this in mind at the moment.
> 
> I'll show off the design once I've finalised it.


Great stuff Ssthsito


----------



## ratboy

HABU said:


> don't you guys have any "wilderness" over there?


Yeah, Coventry.



> guns and other thing might make more sense if you have wild places.


ohhhh.... you mean Manchester


----------



## Issa

HABU said:


> don't you guys have any "wilderness" over there? any places where you can get lost? guns and other thing might make more sense if you have wild places. no grizzlies or black bears or wolves or cougars? do you all go backpacking and fish in the remotes? are your wild places more like a groomed park? do you have anything like kentucky? i'm not dogging you but growing up without nature is a little strange to me. please don't cuss me out but so many of you are nature lovers and it seems, nature is hard to find there. i'm not dissing you but it seems a shame.... just being honest, habu U.S.A.


does a panther supposedly running round bodmin moor count as the wilds?
Lots of open grassland the further up north you go but nothing what I'd call untamed wilds no.......


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## HABU

i don't know... all i can say is that you follow your dreams, if you want to be a biologist or whatever, it's a big world out there and take advantage of it while it lasts...


----------



## Chris Newman

Joining a society would be an extremely good idea, strength in numbers!

Both FOCAS and the FBH will be very much involve with government in shaping the secondary legislation, it is vital that organisations that represent keeps does so, but is also very important that people like YOU, the keepers, are also kept informed and involved. Clearly not everyone can be directly involved as that would be entirely impractical, but it is important that you all have input.

As and when possible information will be made available and your impute would be gratefully received. I would anticipate that we would use the FOCAS website as the primary source of information, distribution and collation, as it is a little impractical to if it’s scattered all over the place.


----------



## ratboy

Well, I sent an email to the local borough council last night asking what was going to be done about policing the AWB in the borough where I live.

I pointed out that I was fully aware that there was no legal obligation for them to police the cruelty and welfare aspects of the AWB through the information available on the DEFRA web-site and that in some cases prosecutions under this part of the act would presumably be left in the hands of the RSPCA, which caused me great concern.

I stated that I have been keeping various species of rat snake for 9 years and had been a member of the FBH for the majority of that time and as such was fully aware of the RSPCA's lack of knowledge and training when it came to the care and welfare of these animals. I would therefore be grateful if they could tell me exactly what they would be doing to ensure that the knowledge of and welfare criteria for these animals is correct before any enforcement starts.

It's local election time very soon, so ya never know 

Steve


----------



## Guest

check here:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/general-herp-sites/30682-save-our-reptiles-site.html


----------



## Guest

thats the new forum....co-owned by me and siuk


----------



## Akua_Ko_Nalu

I've sent off my letter to my local MP, I may have a bit of luck with him as we have met before a few years back, he was invited to attend my presentation on reptile keeping at school and attended. 
He was interested to say the least, he told me how I liked to see something a little different than your average cats and dog households. So I have reminded him of this in my letter and will hopefully have his vote when it comes down to it.


----------



## ratboy

I got an email response from the chief animal warden of my borough council on Saturday where he aske for my phone number so he could speak to me... much better than long email conversations. Spoke to him this morning and had a very informative chat.

My borough council have every intention of using the RSPCA to police the welfare part of the AWB. he was under the impression that the RSPCA would be experts on our animals and would therefore be in a much better position to determine whether animals are being kept to appropriate standards. I did point out that although possible, this was very unlikely. If you consider the snakes that I keep ( of which he had no knowledge other than what he was reading on the internet page in front of him ) I pointed out that there are over 60 rat snake species with a range of care requirements and the people who would be far better qualified in these areas when it came to reptiles were groups like the FBH which he was very grateful to be informed about.

The FACT is people, the very people who have been given the job of enforcing the bill know NOTHING about the animals we keep... it is up to us to make sure that changes !


----------



## salman

Hi, This post is very informative, however I would like some specific information. If someone can help me then please send me a private message. Best Regards,
Aid & Trade Dropshippers | Wholesale Suppliers
France Wholesalers | All UK Wholesalers


----------



## Dirteewrongen

Have many of you had replies/a response? 
Not a single letter/email that I've sent has been acknowledged :whip:


----------



## Akua_Ko_Nalu

I got a letter back saying they are not willing to comment at this time until further investigation is complete?

Jackass!


----------



## Nabeel

Hi, This post is very informative, however I would like some specific information. If someone can help me then please send me a private message. Best Regards,

Pakistan Real Estate | Wholesale Suppliers
Wholesale Canadian Directory | Dubai Real Estate


----------



## reptilegirl

*hi and thnks for the notice*

i know im only young but that is really bad and i dnt think that they should be able to that i hav a couple of snakes and lizards so i know wat im sayin wen i say some one has to stop this ban and i hope that sme one does i hope u dont me postin this to otha people tht i know who deal in reptiles and breeding thm thnks for the notice it really helped cheers

reptilegirl
(sje)
for short 
:lol2:


----------



## ReptileRescueHull

ratboy said:


> I got an email response from the chief animal warden of my borough council on Saturday where he aske for my phone number so he could speak to me... much better than long email conversations. Spoke to him this morning and had a very informative chat.
> 
> My borough council have every intention of using the RSPCA to police the welfare part of the AWB. he was under the impression that the RSPCA would be experts on our animals and would therefore be in a much better position to determine whether animals are being kept to appropriate standards. I did point out that although possible, this was very unlikely. If you consider the snakes that I keep ( of which he had no knowledge other than what he was reading on the internet page in front of him ) I pointed out that there are over 60 rat snake species with a range of care requirements and the people who would be far better qualified in these areas when it came to reptiles were groups like the FBH which he was very grateful to be informed about.
> 
> The FACT is people, the very people who have been given the job of enforcing the bill know NOTHING about the animals we keep... it is up to us to make sure that changes !


 

actually hull rspca use me as there expert and i have a vast knowledge of what i do and whats wrong hopefully other rspcas in other districts will do the same so far ive reached as far as bradford from hull doing it for them so i wouldnt be to concerned about it they also ring me directly and show me on camera phone conditions etc if there over 5 hours away


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## Diablo

Are you employed by the RSPCA if so could you please tell us when the new guide lines are made public for us reptile keepers to follow.


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## SuperTed

Snake_charmer said:


> Are you employed by the RSPCA if so could you please tell us when the new guide lines are made public for us reptile keepers to follow.


my guidlines started when i started keeping snakes :lol2: i dont think anyone is changing them tbh!


----------



## This is my Clone

I have to say I haven't been following this whole AWB thing. Is it a threat to your everyday pet owner like myself, or to professional breeders, or both?
I mean if they ban reptiles, what do they want me to do with mine? They can take them over my dead body!!!


----------



## punky_jen

But if they get taken, what the hell are they gona do with so many? they dont have vivs i bet, or know how to care for them. would be spade time for our reps, id not give mine either.


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## tokay

they would probly be euthanised


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## monitorlady

*hindsight*

I`ve not been keeping up with what`s been happening with regards to the law and regulations, etc. I`ve just been reading through this thread and now feel quite sick at the thought of there being a ban on reptile keeping. I should have seen it coming because I was aware that they had stopped the Stockport reptile show being held in the town hall years ago (which by the way was a great show, with knowledgable sellers and all animals in great condition). So even after all these years they`re still not letting up on their witch-hunt! I would say the majority of reptile owners really care for and look after their pets properly but the anti-groups seem to portray us as selfish and cruel, omitting any contributions to conservation that we may make, etc. I think they do this with the sole purpose of riling up ignorant people to join their brainwashing bandwagon! Sorry if I`m going on a bit but my blood is boiling :cussing:. Anyway, finances allowing, I will be joining either FBH or IHS as soon as, so my head can be counted! If anybody knows of any herp groups local to Wigan area can you please let me know. I don`t drive so it has to be at least only a bus or train ride away. Or if anybody is thinking of organising one I would be more than happy to help. I wouldn`t know how to go about it myself (feel too disorganised and shy.)


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## Surly

Hey.. To be honest, I haven't fully read this thread through, however, I think its terrible that people want to ban reptiles. it makes one wonder how long it'll be until we can't own any animal, or even look at a wild one (<.<)

I found this piece of information from doing a search on the PETA website, though I'm not sure if it's the same group. It is designed for primary school teachers to 'educate' their pupils about reptiles... It might just be me, but it seems to be portraying keepers as people who just get them for the hell of it, then get bored:



> *'Exotic' Animals*
> 
> While it remains legal for 'exotic' animals to be sold to the general public, these creatures are often kept in inappropriate surroundings and fed on improper diets. It's estimated that all green lizards kept as 'pets' die during their first year. And while some lizards sleep or hide, others stand still as stone - all day long - which becomes boring for many of their human caretakers, who then abandon them for more 'entertaining' animals. Also, many reptiles carry salmonella, which can cause their human caretakers to get sick - or even die.
> 
> Some snakes can live for more than 20 years and grow in excess of five feet. They need special and committed care like a large, **** and span tank (at least 30-gallon capacity), fresh water and the right temperature. They are susceptible to a variety of parasites as well as blister disease, respiratory and digestive disorders, and mouth rot. The careful application of pesticides is required to guard against mite infestations.
> 
> Geckos are a popular choice in pet shops, but few realise that they can live for up to 30 years and need an absolutely constant temperature. They feed on insects and baby mice.


All About Animals > Primary Teachers > Issues > 'Exotic' Animals



While there are murders, drug abuse and other things going on frequently in this country, it seems some MPs are more interested in destroying reptile keeping.


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## ratboy

EddieLizzard said:


> I have to say I haven't been following this whole AWB thing. Is it a threat to your everyday pet owner like myself, or to professional breeders, or both?


Both. The AWA ( It is no longer a Bill it is an Act ) has the potential to make it impossible to keep certain species of animal correctly. By correctly I mean adhering to the Code Of Practice that will be written for each animal.

If, for example, the Code Of Practice states that for Rat snakes and Royals the length of the vivarium must be at least as long as the snake and it is therefore illegal to keep them in anything smaller... how big do you think the enclosures for species like Burmese Pythons, Carpet Pythons and Common Boas are going to have to be ?


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