# D angusticeps envenomation



## Burmese (Jan 15, 2008)

This bite report came into my possession. The victim wishes to remain anonymous, but would like to highlight the effects.

*SUMMARY OF BITE BY DENDROASPIS ANGUSTICEPS*
At approximately 17:00 03/02/2009, a bite was sustained on the left index finger from a 1.4m male Dendroaspis angusticeps. The snake was being returned to its vivarium from a holding box, when it doubled back and bit the keeper once on the left index finger between the first and second knuckles
Suction was immediately applied using a Venimex extractor and pressure applied to the bite site. A compression bandage was then applied from the elbow down to the bite. The bite itself was a “bite and release” and was virtually painless, but a burning sensation was immediately evident at the bite site. The bite bled profusely with the blood being of a watery consistency.
Approximately 30 minutes post bite there was a noticeable tingling and numbness of the lips and the tongue felt “thick”
A log of the bite was not kept, so timings are only approximate.
+45m: Increasing numbness of lips, a feeling in neck and throat akin to tonsillitis and difficulty swallowing, neck becoming stiff and ache in jaw. Slight abdominal pain and incidence of diarrhoea
+1h: muscular pain on opening jaw, turning head and extending tongue. “Pins and needles” feeling extending across lower face. Noticeable swelling of hand. Pulse approximately 180bpm. Took antihistamines and anti-inflammatories
+3h: Pins and needles in hands and legs, intermittent cold flushes across body as if being splashed with cold water. Pain on moving eyes, jaw stiff and painful to open mouth. Increasing stiffness of neck muscles and pain upon moving head. Almost impossible to swallow food. 
+4h: Pins and needles increasing to a feeling of “buzzing” over entire body. All joints aching and skin hot, dry and painful to the touch. 
+6h: slight fasciculation in right calf, very brief and only occurred once. Slight tightness in chest with a feeling of not being able to draw a full breath. Pain in chest and abdomen when coughing.
+6h 15m: noticeable tremors over entire body and frequent yawning. Feeling of wanting to go to sleep. Joints very stiff and painful, difficulty standing and walking due to stiffness and pain, general feeling of weakness. Feeling of being “not quite with it”
+7h went to bed, sleep interrupted a few times
08:30 04/02/09: woke up, no aches, no joint pain, no pins and needles. Hand very swollen and hot to the touch, extremely painful to touch. Frequent instantaneous hot flushes across the face. Continued with Antihistamines and anti-inflammatories. 
16:00 swelling advancing up forearm. Reapplied compression bandage from elbow downwards.
08:00 05/02/09: Swelling ceased advancing at mid forearm, swelling appears to be diminishing in hand and increased mobility of fingers. Left hand still hot to touch. Have a headache that won’t go away.
10:30 06/02/09: Swelling decreasing, virtually full mobility of fingers, hand feels as if it has been crushed, all areas tender and painful to slightest pressure, tenderness extends to mid-forearm, all joints in the hand painful to move, wrist joint painful and stiff
12:00 08/02/09: Swelling has gone completely although left hand is extremely sore to touch and all joints are stiff and painful. The pain seems to go right into the bones. It feels as if the hand has been hit all over with a large hammer. Wrist joint is painful and stiff to move, pain upon contact extends to mid forearm. Redness around fang marks. No residual systemic effects. 
23:00 09/02/09: Index finger starting to swell again, noticeable redness and heat around fang marks. Decreased mobility in index finger. Took anti-histamines. Entire hand, wrist and forearm are still tender, pain upon slight pressure to skin and pain in joints upon moving.
22:00 11/02/09: Dusky reddish raised area surrounding fang marks. Entire hand and wrist still painful to the touch and feeling as if they have been crushed.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

who got bit?


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## Chriseybear (Jun 6, 2008)

*Approximately 30 minutes post bite there was a noticeable tingling and numbness of the lips and the tongue felt “thick”*

That.. scares me.
30 minutes and already well around the body.
*thumb feels itchy*


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

I haven't got my glasses on, but I can't see ..... Phoned an Ambulance in there..... Why?


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## Angi (Nov 12, 2005)

Hmm, when it comes to the point that the person is experiencing difficulty swallowing then the next place to seize up (so to speak) would be the respiratory system, this person is extremely lucky to be alive. In hospital if someone reaches that point then they would certainly consider intubation so that they could keep the person alive.
I see no mention of hospital though??????????????????????????????


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## Shorty92 (Jul 1, 2008)

http://venomland.forumotions.com/venom-f10/d-angusticeps-envenomation-t948.htm


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Even if i got tagged by something non DWA like a boiga, and i felt 'not quite with it' with a thick tongue and inability to swallow (therefore surely difficult to breathe?) i would have my backside in an ambulance faster than the snake bit me!

It was good of you to post this to allow us to see the effects of a bite, however i personally think the keeper who got bitten was a fool not to receive medical attention. It could have gone quite the other way and caused his death/loss of limb and also possibly damaged the hobby if and when the information hit the press. I feel that is an irresponsible keeper... 

Glad he/she made a recovery though!


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## carpy (Nov 13, 2007)

yea very bizarre - why no attempt to obtain antivenom. he has clearly been envenomated by a very dangerous elapid, surely going to bed without any medical assistance whatsoever and attempting to sleep is a very stupid move


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## STReptiles (Feb 6, 2009)

id sh*t myself if i felt sleepy i definetly would not go to bed thats crazy interesting thread though


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## brian (Oct 22, 2005)

This man should have seen medical attention at once. I would have thought it is the good practice to get it. And what harm would it have done to the reptile keepers who do keep and want to keep reptiles on DWA if this person had died just because he did not want medical attention ( Thank god he did not die )

I was going to say some thing like can we all learn from this and just stop for 5 seconds more and think what we are doing but I wont say it as I know we will think.....Brian

THIS COULD HAPPEN TO ANY OF US...........


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## xxsassyminxxx (Jan 3, 2008)

the only treatment after the suction extractor was anti-inflamatories and antihistamine?
and this was self medicated?
did this person have someone who was from a medical background with them at all times especially while sleeping?
or did this person themselves have a medical background?


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

stuartdouglas said:


> who got bit?





Shorty92 said:


> http://venomland.forumotions.com/venom-f10/d-angusticeps-envenomation-t948.htm


Seems like you knew who got bit Stuart, why the big mystery surrounding this.....


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

*:whistling2:*


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

SW-morelia said:


> Seems like you knew who got bit Stuart, why the big mystery surrounding this.....


The reason I asked "who got bit" was that the OP posted the report as if it had come from him with no mention of the site that he/she obviously cut and pasted it from.

As for the "mystery" .............there is none, I was requested not to divulge the name and/or location of the keeper in exchange for being allowed to post the report in order that people would have an idea of the clinical effects of an elapid bite. In answer to another question, both of us have a medical background from HM Forces.


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## xxsassyminxxx (Jan 3, 2008)

thasuch a relief the fact that u both have background is very useful in this situation. 
do u think keeping calm is a major factor in a bite situation?
as i heard if the bite victim gets stressed or panics the symtoms get worse quicker, is this true?


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## loxocemus (Sep 2, 2006)

this was an incredibly incredibly stupid thing to do, u say u would have sought medical attention should it have been required, so u knew for sure if his heart stopped an ambulance would have been there in time, u knew for sure u could have got the appropriate treatment in time? u knew for sure ur medical training in ur house, no defib, nada u could have brought him back?, im not sure of the legalitys here but if he had died im sure the police would be very interested in ur involvement and why u didnt do more, u were BOTH very lucky, and u should both be utterly ashamed of urselfs. the reptile hobby is at the goverments whim, and u pull this, can u imagine the headline, makes no difference the facts, headlines are what cause changes, urs could have cost everyone a lot more than u think.





stuartdouglas said:


> The reason I asked "who got bit" was that the OP posted the report as if it had come from him with no mention of the site that he/she obviously cut and pasted it from.
> 
> As for the "mystery" .............there is none, I was requested not to divulge the name and/or location of the keeper in exchange for being allowed to post the report in order that people would have an idea of the clinical effects of an elapid bite. In answer to another question, both of us have a medical background from HM Forces.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

loxocemus said:


> this was an incredibly incredibly stupid thing to do, u say u would have sought medical attention should it have been required, so u knew for sure if his heart stopped an ambulance would have been there in time, u knew for sure u could have got the appropriate treatment in time? u knew for sure ur medical training in ur house, no defib, nada u could have brought him back?, im not sure of the legalitys here but if he had died im sure the police would be very interested in ur involvement and why u didnt do more, u were BOTH very lucky, and u should both be utterly ashamed of urselfs. the reptile hobby is at the goverments whim, and u pull this, can u imagine the headline, makes no difference the facts, headlines are what cause changes, urs could have cost everyone a lot more than u think.


Jump on.............there's still a little bit more room on the bandwagon:whistling2:


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## loxocemus (Sep 2, 2006)

lets recap

man gets bit by BLACK MAMBA, man and mans friend decide to "ride it out", did i forget to say BLACK MAMBA one of the worlds deadliest not a corn a mamba!

lets say the situation turned out different, how do u think it would have went, it might have went something like this

headline 1 = man gets bit by and dies from pet mamba
headline 2 = does ur neighbour have a cobra?
headline 3 = scandal of exotic pets
headline 4 = goverment urges urgent review
headline 5 = ????????????

idiot




stuartdouglas said:


> Jump on.............there's still a little bit more room on the bandwagon:whistling2:


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

loxocemus said:


> awww lets feel sorry for the poor idiot


I'm going to type this slowly, so that you can absorb it. Nobody was asking for sympathy. The report was posted (originally) on a site that is occupied by more mature people who can understand the reasoning for posting a bite report. it was hijacked and posted on here where the pitchforks and flaming torch brigade who......you included, pretty much have no idea what they are talking about and want to jump on a convenient bandwagon.

I thank you for your opinion, but as Mel Gibson once said "opinions are like ar*eholes, everyone has got one, but you ain't necessarily too interested in the other guy's"

The folks on this forum whose opinions I respect and welcome I can count on both hands


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## kaz9t9 (Aug 28, 2007)

Glad to hear your friend is ok Stuart, I don't suppose you managed to get any pictures of the bite? Or the snake in question. Keep us posted on his recovery. : victory:


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

loxocemus said:


> lets recap
> 
> man gets bit by BLACK MAMBA, man and mans friend decide to "ride it out", did i forget to say BLACK MAMBA one of the worlds deadliest not a corn a mamba!
> 
> ...


 
You really have shown your self to be a complete ignoramus............_Dendroaspis angusticeps_ is an Eastern Green Mamba, a lot smaller and with a venom one tenth the toxicity of the black (_Dendroaspis polylepis_) 

When you have some knowledge of what you are talking about, then, maybe, your opinions would have some credence..............until then.................


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

for the assistance of the intellectually challenged









Dendroaspis polylepis (black mamba)









Dendroaspis angusticeps (Eastern green)

I know the difference is very subtle, and some of you may need to look VEERRRY carefully, but they are different:whistling2:


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## loxocemus (Sep 2, 2006)

yup, makes a big difference, but dead is dead

and an idiot is an idiot

post whatever excuse and critic u like, long short of it, u fu**ked up and u got lucky







stuartdouglas said:


> You really have shown your self to be a complete ignoramus............_Dendroaspis angusticeps_ is an Eastern Green Mamba, a lot smaller and with a venom one tenth the toxicity of the black (_Dendroaspis polylepis_)
> 
> When you have some knowledge of what you are talking about, then, maybe, your opinions would have some credence..............until then.................


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

loxocemus said:


> yup, makes a big difference, but dead is dead
> 
> and an idiot is an idiot
> 
> post whatever excuse and critic u like, long short of it, u fu**ked up and u got lucky


I am neither..................you on the other hand....


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## xxsassyminxxx (Jan 3, 2008)

loxocemus said:


> yup, makes a big difference, but dead is dead
> 
> and an idiot is an idiot
> 
> post whatever excuse and critic u like, long short of it, u fu**ked up and u got lucky


 
calm down!:bash: this is information which is useful. 
if every one would panic like this nothing would never be said, and no one would learn.

they clearly have medical experience and would have did what was neccessary when it was.

now thats not to say that others should 'ride it out' and take such a risk its just an example.


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## brian (Oct 22, 2005)

stuartdouglas said:


> for the assistance of the intellectually challenged
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
:2thumb: Any chance of pointing it out please : victory:


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

Something seems wrong here.


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## carpy (Nov 13, 2007)

hmm- firstly glad stu got there before me, i was about to point out it isnt a black mamba

but stu you know as well as i do a bite from a green isnt exactly a ride in the park. its still a very toxic elapid, and they have a potentially fatal bite, no questions asked. glad he survived, i do still feel seeking medical assistance would have been a good move, if only because it would have alerted authorities and allowed them to make necessary preparations should his opinion have deteriorated. i do believe they have a number of vials of polyvalent antivenom that could have been beneficial, though i may be mistaken


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Bold move not going to the hospital. Perhaps a low dose from the mamba? Did much venom come out into the extractor? Could you decipher approximate relative toxicity of the bite based on the wound and /or anything else?


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

You gotta wonder why he never went to the hospital tho.....


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

I must say, no matter how you try and spin this..... It was very irresponsible to not get medical attention....
It has me wondering..... Perhaps the Eastern Green Mamba wasn't included on the DWAL, and the council would of had your 'friends' snake confiscated....
I cannot think of any other reason to take a chance like that.....


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

I've been away from the computer for a few days and I'll so just picked up on this thread.

Surely the main thing is that the person who got nailed is apparently ok.

There seems to be an assumption here that is was a male! Why?

Who ever it was have there own reason for taking the course of action they did so that is their choice, end of story.

I have openly said on the forum in the past that I would consider giving a false name if I attended hospital (post hot bite) as I have a deep mistrust about my personal details getting into the public domain through the likes of the press.

If you are unfortunate enough to be tagged you do not know what your actual course of action would be?

As SD says opinions are like ar*eholes and thats mine for what little its worth.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

slippery42 said:


> I have openly said on the forum in the past that I would consider giving a false name if I attended hospital (post hot bite) as I have a deep mistrust about my personal details getting into the public domain through the likes of the press.
> 
> If you are unfortunate enough to be tagged you do not know what your actual course of action would be?


Your DWAL will state what snakes you have in your possession, and your liability insurance will reflect that....
I'm afraid a false name just won't wash, people in authority will want to know.....
And the course of action taken by people who I know that have been bit always follows their protocol.....
They put the snake back.... Apply a pressure bandage, collect the card from the front of said snakes tank and make there way to hospital.....They phone the appropriate numbers written on the card and inform them what has happened...... 
I'm still trying to work out a reason why someone would take a chance on death instead of taking the simple route.....


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

SW-morelia said:


> I'm afraid a false name just won't wash, people in authority will want to know.....
> And the course of action taken by people who I know that have been bit always follows their protocol.....


Why would they want to know if it happened in your "hot room"? there is nothing in the DWAL act requiring bites/hospital treatment to be reported, the point I am making is I would not want Joe Public to get in on it.

As for protocol there is no set standard so everyones may be different, do you know people who are regularly bitten?


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

slippery42 said:


> Why would they want to know if it happened in your "hot room"? there is nothing in the DWAL act requiring bites/hospital treatment to be reported, the point I am making is I would not want Joe Public to get in on it.
> 
> As for protocol there is no set standard so everyones may be different, do you know people who are regularly bitten?


I know three people who have been bit...
One was quite serious one wasn't so serious and one was a dry bite..
BUT they all went straight to hospital and reported that they had been bit....

What I want explained is how you report an Elapid bite at a hospital and they don't want your name or where the snake is.....
After all it could be an illegal snake.....
Like when you go to hospital after an assault, the police are always informed.... Don't they ask any questions when you turn up envenomated??


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

SW-morelia said:


> I know three people who have been bit...
> One was quite serious one wasn't so serious and one was a dry bite..
> BUT they all went straight to hospital and reported that they had been bit....
> 
> ...


They ask if you know what species bit you, when, symptoms etc. 

Its not up to the medical team to determine if you are legal or not, they may ask but if you refuse to give them an answer what can they do? 

Refuse to treat?

They are clearly within their rights to ensure that they are not at risk.

The whole patient confidentiality thing should stop your name getting our into the press but good old UK press seem to get hold of all the tasty stories, so I'd opt for anonymity by what ever means.

I'd not need the grief off the press as my wife would give me more than enough!


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

it is an interesting thread, and whilst i understand what slipery is saying about the press, and as well as understanding they had medical backgrounds i do think we should all be working off the same protocols, maybe they should be issued by liverpool who to me are the only people who are expert at snake bite treatment, Maybes this is a good opportunity if we ask them to do this, certainly i believe they should be phoned when any venomous snake bite occurs. there is no worrys about confidentiality with them


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

leptophis said:


> it is an interesting thread, and whilst i understand what slipery is saying about the press, and as well as understanding they had medical backgrounds i do think we should all be working off the same protocols, maybe they should be issued by liverpool who to me are the only people who are expert at snake bite treatment, Maybes this is a good opportunity if we ask them to do this, certainly i believe they should be phoned when any venomous snake bite occurs. there is no worrys about confidentiality with them


Good idea perhaps Paul R can input as I believe he is on the forum sometimes?


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## loxocemus (Sep 2, 2006)

i actually do know my latin and the difference between the two, i was just so utterly astounded at the stupidity of what i was reading i didnt take it in.

u must be a star in the dwa community now 



stuartdouglas said:


> You really have shown your self to be a complete ignoramus............_Dendroaspis angusticeps_ is an Eastern Green Mamba, a lot smaller and with a venom one tenth the toxicity of the black (_Dendroaspis polylepis_)
> 
> When you have some knowledge of what you are talking about, then, maybe, your opinions would have some credence..............until then.................


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## leeh1985 (Dec 6, 2006)

I have read this thread and have been interested in the comments followed.

I always have had a belief that if you get bitten by a hot not matter how venomous it is you should report it just on the off chance that you become seriously ill from the bite.

Stuart I thank you for publishing the bite record and events of what happened but I will say now that even though it was from a green mamba it was a foolish thing to do to not go to seek professional medical assistance as what if the bite victim died? That would not look to good on you or this hobby.

I always believe that if you get bitten by a hot you should think very carefully about owning them as if it has happened once it can happen again.

I know of a few bites that have happen over the years one involving a death adder and king cobra recently and as far as im aware both were sent to hospital straight away, so maybe instead of trying to play god with your friends life you would have made the right decision in contacting the hospital and getting the right care.

Nothing against you Stuart but I hope you see were im coming from.


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## Angi (Nov 12, 2005)

I am astounded that two people with some medical background and some knowledge of envenomation, would not seek medical advice or assistance. To me this is a display of either total arrogance or stupidity. Thats my opinion.
Whilst the person who was bitten does have a right to their own decisions, the actual event occuring and the symptoms could realistically alter a persons perceptions. If this happenned to any friend of mine I WOULD seek advice no matter what the person said, and I have a background of 15 years of nursing, so I am no fool. I have been present following a serious envenomation and remained with the patient for the first couple of hours, even whilst in A&E. I did not leave his side for more than a couple of minutes and observed the symptoms and treatment, it can all happen very quickly. 
Yes you can monitor some signs and symptoms at home, but there are times when one person simply is not enough, when a persons health declines rapidly. At least in hospital more can be monitored and all of the emergency equipment is at hand - did you have any of this at hand? My initial concern following the swallowing difficulty would be the chance of respiratory arrest, if this occurred then one person would be extremely hard pushed to gain emergency services and keep the person alive.

I am left wondering at what point you would have decided to seek medical help and why you did not seek it. 

I am not exactly sure of the half life of venoms, is there no chance that there could be some long or short term effects that may have been prevented/reduced/alleviated by the administration of antivenom? Maybe Paul or Brian would be able to enlighten us.

I am glad the person is recovering and hope they have no persistant ill effects. may I ask if this event has put the person off keeping venomous snakes?


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

I think theres some things should be answered


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

God this has gotten boring


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> I think theres some things should be answered


I second Graeme's post.....................


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Hey, 

I havn't check the venom forums yet, just wondering if you could update us stuart. The last statement on the individual state, is that on the 11th that hand was still red and painful to the touch. What the case now, has the individual regained all motor function? is the bite area still swallen??

Also, just wondering how much venom was sucked out of the wound, was it a good bite or relativly small in venom volume. 

Sorry for all the questions, just very interested in it. I know you wern't too keen to post the info on here, but i so rearly get time to check the venom forums. .I dont keep venomus myslf but i am still very interested in the outcome. 

cheers mate, thanks for posting some of the info. And you have to ignore those who seek to judge. 

Spike


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## Jb1432 (Apr 19, 2008)

So this bloke got bitten by a green mamba and didnt seek medical attention - jesus h christ is he insane?! Bite and release wouldnt have been as much venom as a held on bite but still id be in hospital before you could say ive been bitten by a green mamba.


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## browner93 (Dec 17, 2007)

personally i belive that part of the DWAL should be if bitten dry bite or not you should seek medical attention!


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

his snake his bite his choice folks. sorry, we can't deny this person one of the few freedoms we have left, and that is 'get bit.... seek medical attention IF YOU CHOOSE TOO' we dont live in nazi germany people.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

browner93 said:


> personally i belive that part of the DWAL should be if bitten dry bite or not you should seek medical attention!


What are you trying to suggest?

As part of your DWAL you have to report a near miss, a dry bite, a hot bite?

Do you have a DWAL?

The whole DWAL process is supposed to demonstrate you are responsible not to be OTT and give the anti's more ammo!!! (no pun intended).

Most would seek medical attention but at the end of the day is is your choice!

There is and never should be an obligation to report any bite AT ALL, we do not live in a police state!


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## browner93 (Dec 17, 2007)

i mite be,
yet again i mite not be yet who would no!


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

Ahhhhh.... Dont it seem like people want this to vanish 8).....


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> Ahhhhh.... Dont it seem like people want this to vanish 8).....



And you just seem to enjoy shit stirring and making petty remarks.


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

Nope.. But don't you think that something is wierd here?
Stuart owns a green mamba dont he?


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> Nope.. But don't you think that something is wierd here?
> Stuart owns a green mamba dont he?



He does yes.? what are you trying to point out.....Stuart was the one bitten??

If you are, i Highly doubt stuart would be posting/trying/reading on the forum


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

No-ones ever going to get to the bottom of this, so I've given up on it.....
But it seems there's two camps. One that thinks being bit by a hot is OK and one that thinks it isn't.....
As this is a public forum, as long as neither side is being abusive, why not let them thrash it out...


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

Declan123 said:


> He does yes.? what are you trying to point out.....Stuart was the one bitten??
> 
> If you are, i Highly doubt stuart would be posting/trying/reading on the forum


Ummmmm... Yeah, I do think he got bit.
And why, if he could write a report about it, he can easy type with one hand on here....

Why dont he take photos of his both hands... With the date wrote on them, if he does this.. I will make a thread saying sorry for my accusations. :whistling2:


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

In my oppinion,

Mistakes happen, we all make them... wether them being petty or serious.
It's human nature and the end of the day! No-bodys perfect

I wouldn't dream of not going to the Hospital, But, whats it to do with us..?

It was obviously the keeper/handlers choice not to seek medical assistence, and who are we to judge??

This "journal" was documented for the Reptile "community" especially the Venomous snake owners, to see/hear about the effects and symptoms that the venom had from the Eastern Green Mamba.
And personally i don't think we should be all "bickering" and arguing over whats happened.

I personally am very thankful of the Victim of this bite, as he managed to record times, and effects of the venom, this shows me and everyone else who works with these Dangerous animals just how quickly the venom can override your system.

I don't know who it is, and if him/her wants to remain confidenciality, much respect to them.


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

Declan123 said:


> In my oppinion,
> 
> Mistakes happen, we all make them... wether them being petty or serious.
> It's human nature and the end of the day! No-bodys perfect
> ...


:notworthy:spot on...finding out everything that can be found out is crucial when working with anything tbh but specially with something potentially lethal


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

So that was the first time anyone had ever documented a green mamba bite was it?
Isn't there any other documented cases about so we can read them?


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

Angi said:


> I am astounded that two people with some medical background and some knowledge of envenomation, would not seek medical advice or assistance. To me this is a display of either total arrogance or stupidity. Thats my opinion.
> Whilst the person who was bitten does have a right to their own decisions, the actual event occuring and the symptoms could realistically alter a persons perceptions. If this happenned to any friend of mine I WOULD seek advice no matter what the person said, and I have a background of 15 years of nursing, so I am no fool. I have been present following a serious envenomation and remained with the patient for the first couple of hours, even whilst in A&E. I did not leave his side for more than a couple of minutes and *observed the symptoms and treatment*, it can all happen very quickly.
> Yes you can monitor some signs and symptoms at home, but there are times when one person simply is not enough, when a persons health declines rapidly. At least in hospital more can be monitored and all of the emergency equipment is at hand - did you have any of this at hand? My initial concern following the swallowing difficulty would be the chance of respiratory arrest, if this occurred then one person would be extremely hard pushed to gain emergency services and keep the person alive.
> 
> ...


Angi had gone to the hospital with the OP.... Why couldn't Stuart and His friend :whistling2:

Maybe going to the hospital could of landed him in some serious shit: victory:


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

SW-morelia said:


> So that was the first time anyone had ever documented a green mamba bite was it?
> Isn't there any other documented cases about so we can read them?



Yes there most probabaly is somwhere on this vast Internet, But everyone reacts different to an Envenomation... so they are always quite varied.

This is the first journaled Eastern Green bite ive seen from the UK though


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

SW-morelia said:


> So that was the first time anyone had ever documented a green mamba bite was it?
> Isn't there any other documented cases about so we can read them?


the more the better surely...i mean obv not better in the sense that people are being bitten but the more information about the bites the more likely an average reaction and treatment etc can be detirmined...one person may do better/worse etc so one lot of information may not give a full indication...just if when doing an experiment you take a range of results to get a conclusion that is correct


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

I got to disagree with both of you.....
If your bit, you don't assess the situation and decide what to do....Is it time yet to go to the hospital? No my tongue hasn't gone numb yet......
If your bit and you have any sense and nothing to hide, you let a doctor decide....
After all assisted suicide is illegal in this country, and not taking your mate to hospital could be seen as assisted suicide if not murder....
When your full of venom you probably are not making great judgements, thats why a back up is with you.......


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Declan123 said:


> This "journal" was documented for the Reptile "community" especially the Venomous snake owners, to see/hear about the effects and symptoms that the venom had from the Eastern Green Mamba.
> And personally i don't think we should be all "bickering" and arguing over whats happened.


Spot on mate. 

There is no point in speculating among ourselves and we should respect the choices made by those involved. By questioning them the reputation of high ownership responsibility among DWA keepers is being tarnished and this is a poor attitude to have if we are all to learn more about such incidences. Plus it can be construed into bad press which no one wants.


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

Please correct me, but where did I say you shouldn't go to the hospital? I never mentioned such a thing. When my DWAL goes through and the dreaded happens... I receive a bite.. Even if I had no effects I'd still be on code red alert, if not already up the hospital. I personally wouldn't hesitate to dash to the hospital, wether my tongue was "numb" or not. But if he/she has chosen not to go. Its their choice and I can't see what the whole argument is about. Personally I think people on this forum would argue over a packet of crisps.. Call ourselves a community.... Most of us have much to learn!


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

The thing thats making me laugh.....
A lot of the venomous keepers are saying it was a highly stupid thing to do....
And the ones defending his decision don't keep venomous....


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

SW-morelia said:


> I got to disagree with both of you.....
> If your bit, you don't assess the situation and decide what to do....Is it time yet to go to the hospital? No my tongue hasn't gone numb yet......
> If your bit and you have any sense and nothing to hide, you let a doctor decide....
> After all assisted suicide is illegal in this country, and not taking your mate to hospital could be seen as assisted suicide if not murder....
> When your full of venom you probably are not making great judgements, thats why a back up is with you.......


of course you go to the hospital..im not disputing that but if you are to survive im sure you will be able to remember how you felt etc and then you can do a journal


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

Maybe it was stupid, but why argue over somthing that's happened... If the person never documented this bite... Only a few of the people involved would know, and a couple of snakebite doctors like DR Paul rowley, but it would never be on this forum, and it wouldn't had anything to do with anyone. So why do certain people think just because its been documented for the venomous society they can "slag" off the person/persons involved. Like you say, even though they have no venomous training or experience


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

Declan123 said:


> Maybe it was stupid, but why argue over somthing that's happened... If the person never documented this bite... Only a few of the people involved would know, and a couple of snakebite doctors like DR Paul rowley, but it would never be on this forum, and it wouldn't had anything to do with anyone. So why do certain people think just because its been documented for the venomous society they can "slag" off the person/persons involved. Like you say, even though they have no venomous training or experience


 I think you'll find a few of the people 'slagging off' do have venomous training and experience....


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> Angi had gone to the hospital with the OP.... Why couldn't Stuart and His friend :whistling2:
> 
> Maybe going to the hospital could of landed him in some serious shit: victory:


I said this earlier in this thread..how can going to hospital get you in the shit?

The issue with reporting a bite only becomes a legal responsibility if it happens at work or during work when it would need to be reported under RIDDOR regulations!

*"The Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations 1995*"

So if I get nailed as part of my work, which is possible, I would have a legal obligation to report the incident as would my fellow Director.

However if I get nailed at home in my own time by one of the snakes not owned by my company then there is NO legal mechanism requiring me to report.

that should clear this reporting thing up?


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> Ummmmm... Yeah, I do think he got bit.
> And why, if he could write a report about it, he can easy type with one hand on here....
> 
> Why dont he take photos of his both hands... With the date wrote on them, if he does this.. I will make a thread saying sorry for my accusations. :whistling2:


For your information, if you read a thread made some time ago, you will see that due to work and domestic reasons, I have had to rehome my collection. As Declan said, you seem to enjoy sh1t stirring and have no valid contribution to make to any threads you join. Go away, you irritating child


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

theres plenty of people that have been bitten and access the situation before they decide what to do, Ludwig Trutnau says that almost all of his envenomations have been treated by himself out of hospital, only his two most serious envenomations did he recieve hospital treatment for, remembering hes been bitten 40+ times, doent mean its clever though, or that im advocating it before someone bites off my head its just something to consider before condeming this person.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

stuartdouglas said:


> For your information, if you read a thread made some time ago, you will see that due to work and domestic reasons, I have had to rehome my collection. As Declan said, you seem to enjoy sh1t stirring and have no valid contribution to make to any threads you join. Go away, you irritating child


Nixon probably said that to Frost, just before it went belly up....LOL
I believe he is making a valid contribution to this thread..... I suppose it depends on which side of a Green Mamba your stood :lol2:



SiUK said:


> theres plenty of people that have been bitten and access the situation before they decide what to do, Ludwig Trutnau says that almost all of his envenomations have been treated by himself out of hospital, only his two most serious envenomations did he recieve hospital treatment for, remembering hes been bitten 40+ times, doent mean its clever though, or that im advocating it before someone bites off my head its just something to consider before condeming this person.


 I wouldn't condemn any fellow herper in public...... 
But with the tenuous situation in the exotic keeping market, concerning the keeping of reptiles, I would just like to point out a little fact that a lot of you may not know....
Back in the 30's a group of countries got together to discuss the banning of opium (it was legal up to then. Queen Victoria smoked it)...
It was decided that Opium needed to be controlled......
The Egyptian delegate made a comment, that Cannabis was similar , and it was made illegal at the same time.....
What ever you believe about drugs isn't the issue..... It's the fact that a group of people can at a whim make your collection illegal to own and it will take years to get it back to how it is now...... And if Cannabis is anything to go by, we'll all be dead before that happens.....
Stuart was naive to think a post on the net wouldn't be available to everyone who trawls the net...... Perhaps he'll think twice before he makes a secret post next time.....


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

SW-morelia said:


> Nixon probably said that to Frost, just before it went belly up....LOL
> I believe he is making a valid contribution to this thread..... I suppose it depends on which side of a Green Mamba your stood :lol2:
> 
> 
> ...



Stuart naive...........hardly!

Sterling guy!


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## malthereplover (Aug 22, 2008)

The fella bit, had a medical background and apparently didnt want insurance prices to rocket


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

slippery42 said:


> Stuart naive...........hardly!
> 
> Sterling guy!


 Slippery thats only your opinion... And looking at what has happened here, totally wrong......
Lets get in the real world and stop blowing smoke up Stuarts Ass.... He made a mistake and then he compounded it by posting said mistake....

I really don't care about your or anyone elses opinion.....
.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

This is the last post i'm going to make on this subject, on this forum at least. The bite report was posted, not as a secret, but on another forum that is frequented by serious venomous keepers and as an objective report into an envenomation, detailing the progress of a bite. Not once have I said that what happened was the right thing to do. Bite protocols state that, even in the case of a suspected dry bite, medical attention should be sought. However, we decided to monitor the progress of the bite an, if at any time either of us decided to call time, then it would be off to the hospital full speed. Again, this was completely not the "right" thing to do.
However, it appears that the report got cut and pasted onto this forum which, to be honest, is largely populated by extremely subjective people with an awful lot of opinions and not a lot of knowledge.
I don't expect anyone to "blow smoke" up my ar*e, but you may find that those people you think are doing just that, actually know me, and have seen me work with "hots"
I also think a few of you would also be extremely surprised to know just how many professional heretologists have "ridden out" bites.........

This forum is descending into the middle ages, anything not conforming to the "norm" as dictated by those who shout the loudest gets flamed and the person concerned insulted, vilified and derided. I won't waste energy forwarding the insulting, abusive and threatening PM's on to moderators. However, rest assured that I will catch up to you at some point and you can repeat it all to my face.................:whistling2although I won't hold my breath waiting)


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

Can i just extend a thank you to Stuart for posting the bite report, it was very interesting reading and although an unusual way to deal with a bite from an eastern green or anything with fangs in the front of the gob it was no doubt a course of action that resulted in no harm to the bite victim, ergo no harm done to anyone on here. so stop moaning everyone. please?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Jesus this thread has gone to pot... the whole point is to simply let people know the effects of a green mamba bite - which is a great piece of information for those interested in DWA snakes, from someone with first hand experience!




SNAKEWISPERA said:


> Ummmmm... Yeah, I do think he got bit.
> And why, if he could write a report about it, he can easy type with one hand on here....
> 
> Why dont he take photos of his both hands... With the date wrote on them, if he does this.. I will make a thread saying sorry for my accusations. :whistling2:


Regardless of the time that has passed between the bite and this thread, if you recall the time Stuart got bitten by the dendrophilia and kindly posted the effects on here complete with a timed diary of the effects plus pictures of the bite - you wouldnt be so sure he would be 'scared to admit' it was himself who was bitten. 

DWA keepers dont broadcast bites due to possible damage to the hobby - but jesus in this case grow up and dont speak to people with considerably more experience and knowledge than you, if all you intend to do is make false allegations.


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## Starshine Tara (Jun 22, 2008)

Interesting to read about the effects of the bite.

I would have gone to hospital (I may not have done if symptom free).

Is there any penalty with regards to the DWAL if an owner reports being bitten or envenomated? 

Do you get a number of strikes (excuse the pun), for example, before they take your snakes away and ban you from keeping hots?

Thanks

Tara xxx


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## Issa (Oct 13, 2006)

Interesting read, I don't keep DWA but after seeing the storm that has errupted after someone trying to doccument their experiances, if I ever did and I got bit, I sure as hell wouldn't tell you lot!


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Starshine Tara said:


> Interesting to read about the effects of the bite.
> 
> I would have gone to hospital (I may not have done if symptom free).
> 
> ...


Tara,

There is no mechanism or section within an individuals licence requiring a private collector and DWAL holder to report any bite either dry or envenomating.

As I pointed out in another thread the only legal issue comes if you are bitten as part of a work or business activity in which a bite would become reportable under the RIDDOR act, which is mandatory.

An example being if I get tagged at work both me and my fellow directors would have to report it.

So to save on paperwork I'll make sure I dont (anyway I hate pain!!)


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## Starshine Tara (Jun 22, 2008)

Thanks : victory:

I don't do DWA yet...need way more experience.

Would one day like to keep Eyelash Vipers. :flrt:

Can I ask though, was the OP's friend and the OP himself not scared having immediately realised that envenomation had occurred?

How did they know they could ride it out?

If they didn't, why gamble?

Tara xxx


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

to be honest it was a pretty serious envenomation to try and ride out, not many people would of especially after some of the symptoms that you had, and it was luck that something worse didnt happen.


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## WW** (Jan 20, 2008)

Since some people here have mentioned unwelcome press attention as a possible reason not to go to hospital immediately after a venomous snakebite.

It may therefore be of interest that. during the days that everyone here has been emoting over Stuart's original post, there have been two further bites by DWA species in the UK (please do not ask for further information as being told to :censor: off and thereby expire often causes offence), which ended up in hospital. In both cases, relevant experts were consulted, and both patients are OK. 

In neither case did the press get wind of the bite.

Lesson: the system works! If things go wrong, don't gamble, get medical assistance and potentially save your own life and that of the hobby.


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> t.
> However, it appears that the report got cut and pasted onto this forum which, to be honest, is largely populated by extremely subjective people with an awful lot of opinions and not a lot of knowledge.


couldn't agree more Stuart seems like a lot of members just like to trawl through the threads looking for a chance to stir up a lot of ill feeling and are far too opinionated. Hope your friend is now fully recovered and has no after effects.


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## xxsassyminxxx (Jan 3, 2008)

WW** said:


> Since some people here have mentioned unwelcome press attention as a possible reason not to go to hospital immediately after a venomous snakebite.
> 
> It may therefore be of interest that. during the days that everyone here has been emoting over Stuart's original post, there have been two further bites by DWA species in the UK (please do not ask for further information as being told to :censor: off and thereby expire often causes offence), which ended up in hospital. In both cases, relevant experts were consulted, and both patients are OK.
> 
> ...


there we go so it is safe to go 2 hospital no matter what the cause:2thumb:

can people be mature bout this and stop:bash:ing eachother


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

WW** said:


> Since some people here have mentioned unwelcome press attention as a possible reason not to go to hospital immediately after a venomous snakebite.
> 
> It may therefore be of interest that. during the days that everyone here has been emoting over Stuart's original post, there have been two further bites by DWA species in the UK (please do not ask for further information as being told to :censor: off and thereby expire often causes offence), which ended up in hospital. In both cases, relevant experts were consulted, and both patients are OK.
> 
> ...


 Like I said... If your snakes are legal you have nothing to worry about, and you can go to a hospital without a care in the world......
Even a King cobra envenomation doesn't make the front page... When it's on your DWAL and legal.....


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

it doesnt really matter whether its legal or not from a hospitals perspective though does it.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

SiUK said:


> it doesnt really matter whether its legal or not from a hospitals perspective though does it.


Nope - they are still bound by confidentiality : victory:

this thread has gone on for sooooo long.. and the *point* of the original post has flown out the window... :whistling2:


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## pythondave82 (Nov 14, 2007)

Question, do any of you have any idea how you must come across when the likes of David Warrell and other top doctors are viewing this thread? (you can bet when a bite occurs under similar circumstances one of them or their contacts will browse reptile forums)

UK keepers (DWA holders) and dreamers, which most of you are, seem to be making themselves look like total idiots.

Take a step back and look at what you are writing, 90% of members posts on this thread appear to have been posted in the playground environment, are you all still at school?

This thread needs locking, mods need to step in.

Also, how come all of a sudden you all have experience with venomous snakes, I would hazard a guess that most of you have only ever seen one in a zoo, it really amazes me how much knowledge you all have.

Dave


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## welshgaz (Dec 12, 2005)

Lets try keep personal fudes out of the public eye...


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

I asked for the thread to be locked some time ago and the mod' refused. Since posting a report that was meant to show the clinical effects of an elapid envenomation, I have received abusive and threatening Personal messages and had another member wanting my address intimating violence. Which is precisely the reason I chose *not* to post the report on this forum in the first place. So, to the OP, it would be courteous if you were to ask next time you want to use something of mine on this forum or just post a link to the other site.

It is a shame that, in order to read informative posts, people have to sift through interminable Neanderthal rants..................

I would ask the Mod's again, please lock this thread


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

I agree Dave, with many of your points Dave, I dont know what worse, but they also must read this and wonder about the unfactual information being spouted keepers and non keepers. Some of the info posted in this thread is quite scary by both sides of the debate. Personally i hope this has lead to liverpool being involved and aid councils with protocols which does become a part of licensing.


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