# Venomous snakes live feeding



## nocturnalbynature (Oct 24, 2008)

Hey i was just wondering how many of you venomous keepers feed yours hots live food? i've seen a fair few videos on YouTube and at first i disagreed with it but im more open to the idea now..


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

The only one I've seen fed took F/T... Like any other snake ....


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

nocturnalbynature said:


> Hey i was just wondering how many of you venomous keepers feed yours hots live food? i've seen a fair few videos on YouTube and at first i disagreed with it but im more open to the idea now..


All mine are of frozen-defrosted.


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## nocturnalbynature (Oct 24, 2008)

When the time comes for me to get mine I think I will live feed


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## Dan Page (Jun 5, 2008)

Isn't live feeding illegal?

And why not frozen food?


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## nocturnalbynature (Oct 24, 2008)

No it isn't illegal. 
Because I want to.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

nocturnalbynature said:


> No it isn't illegal.
> Because I want to.


What about the safety of your snake??


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## muru (Apr 27, 2008)

actually it is only legal to feed live if the snakes health is in danger and it will not accept frozen, besides why would you want to feed live anyway, i personally dont fancy spending £4-5 on a live mouse when most snakes will eat the 95p ones, think logically here:bash:


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## nocturnalbynature (Oct 24, 2008)

I want it all to be as natural as possible for the snake.
Money isnt an issue for me.
The amount of people on here breeding mice as live food i seriously doubt each has a snake unwilling to eat frozen..


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

So if it's going to be as natural as possible, are you going to let it roam free, of course not....


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## crouchy (Jan 14, 2008)

Yes a lot of people breed their own food but most of them kill it before giving it to the snake. 

What if the live mouse bites or scratches your snake? you are going to have to treat the wounds, which means you are going to have to restrain the snake and since the bites and scratches are likely to be near the head it cant be tubed. Just seems like a lot of pointless risk and i hope you never get hots for yours and the animals safety.

And snakes dont naturally live in a box wish a dish of still water, loose chips for substrate and a small spot of heat situated right next to a small spot of cooler temps so id like to know how you are going to make all those more natural too?

Lets be honest you just want to feed live and its got nothing to do with being more natural


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## nocturnalbynature (Oct 24, 2008)

tbh mate im not arguing with you. i WILL be feeding my venomous live regardless to if you agree with it or not. 

I said i wanted to make it as natural as possible and inside a tank theres only a limited amount of things i can do.

you have no right to make out that im some cruel person wanting to watch snakes kill tiny mice, you dont know me and to be perfectly honest i dont care what your opinion is.

well thanks for input that wasnt an attack from the elites.

anthony


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

crouchy said:


> What if the live mouse bites or scratches your snake? you are going to have to treat the wounds, which means you are going to have to restrain the snake and since the bites and scratches are likely to be near the head it cant be tubed.


that would be my concern, any cuts or scrapes or potentially more severe injuries would put you as the handler at added risk because they would have to be treated, its less likely than with a constrictor of course but the risk is still there.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

nocturnalbynature said:


> tbh mate im not arguing with you. i WILL be feeding my venomous live regardless to if you agree with it or not.
> 
> I said i wanted to make it as natural as possible and inside a tank theres only a limited amount of things i can do.
> 
> ...


Sorry but with an attitude like that lets hope you do not get a DWA licence as you need to be mature to hold one and you do not sound mature!

Sorry if you do not like this post but truth sometimes hurts!


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## nocturnalbynature (Oct 24, 2008)

roflmao alright mate.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

Can I ask if you have any snakes?...... If so, what are they and how long have you had them?.....


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## retri (Mar 5, 2008)

Tbh I can see how the OP's posts come across a little imature, but as he has said its up to him how he feeds his animals, although putting it on the forums is probably not a good idea.

Anyhow, most live feeding injuries occur with constrictors when they grab and constrict the mouse it then bites into the snake.

I would imagine the way that venomous snakes feed the only contact the snake and mouse are likely to have is the initial bite and then consumtion.

Either way its down to the OP how he feeds his animals


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

retri said:


> Tbh I can see how the OP's posts come across a little immature


He certainly does!


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

nocturnalbynature said:


> Hey i was just wondering how many of you venomous keepers feed yours hots live food? i've seen a fair few videos on YouTube and at first i disagreed with it but im more open to the idea now..


Have you ever seen the sort of damage that an adult live mouse can do to a venomous snake?
There have been cases where mice have bitten holes in a snake or even chewed the head clean off.
If snakes are readily feeding on dead mice, there is no justifiable reason to feed out live mice.

Here is a link that may be of interest:
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/69279-live-feeding-laws.html


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## nocturnalbynature (Oct 24, 2008)

ok. your right i suppose. sorry for my attitude im just having a rough day. all your points were valid.
but i honestly didnt want to live feed to get some kind of sick thrill i honestly was thinking how to make it as natural for the snake as i could but as pointed out its in a tank with a water bowl..very natural lol.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

nocturnalbynature said:


> ok. your right i suppose. sorry for my attitude im just having a rough day. all your points were valid.
> but i honestly didnt want to live feed to get some kind of sick thrill i honestly was thinking how to make it as natural for the snake as i could but as pointed out its in a tank with a water bowl..very natural lol.


:no1::no1::no1:
Result...... Nice one.....: victory:


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## malthereplover (Aug 22, 2008)

nocturnalbynature said:


> I want it all to be as natural as possible for the snake.
> Money isnt an issue for me.
> The amount of people on here breeding mice as live food i seriously doubt each has a snake unwilling to eat frozen..


They are bred then culled, not usually fed live, plus do you want your very expensive snake getting seriously scarred?


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## malthereplover (Aug 22, 2008)

nocturnalbynature said:


> tbh mate im not arguing with you. i WILL be feeding my venomous live regardless to if you agree with it or not.
> 
> I said i wanted to make it as natural as possible and inside a tank theres only a limited amount of things i can do.
> 
> ...


If you dont care about his opinion, what are you doing on these forums!?


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

malthereplover said:


> If you dont care about his opinion, what are you doing on these forums!?


Its not about failing to listen to his opinions its about guiding him as to what is right and acceptable and good practice..

As PDR has stated just because a snake can envenomate its prey or a perceived threat doesn't mean it will do so.

If the poster were to get a DWAL and went down the route he has suggested he may end up with an injured "hot" snake which he has to treated for said injury.

In doing so he may be seriously tagged..and so on.

I do not know the guy but it is worth while listening to some of the threads in this section as there a some highly experienced venomous keepers on here who give good advice.


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

sorry to jump in here, since I keep no snakes let alone DWA ones my opinion is not worth a lot I understand, but I don't see what the big problem is?

I feed my tarantula livefood. Adult crickets, locusts etc. Now they can bite, there's a pic of a nasty bit a locust(or adult cricket i forget) gave a leopard gecko, right on it's face. However that isn't going to stop anyone from feeding their lizards and inverts livefood like crickets and locusts.

It seems to be when we start talking about cuddly little mice everyone's tune changes. Surely for these DWA snakes with their powerful venom designed to kill prey it is more natural and stimulating for them to strike at their live prey and eat it that way. I assume all snakes must be scavengers as well or feeding pre killed would be impossible but I don't understand the objection to feeding live. Sure there's a very slim chance the mouse will attack back, I'd assume more so with constricting snakes, but it seems like people baby them too much to the extent they will lack all stimulation and any fragment of their natural existence. It's like people who use kitchen towel for their leopard geckos and have very little for them to climb about on as they fear any small fall will kill them. I think that's unfair to the gecko as kitchen towel is nothing like a natural substrate and having large interesting pieces of decor to explore at least gives them something to do.

Again though that's just my opinion and obviously it isn't the accepted one when it comes to snakes, or live feeding(unless there is no other alternative) wouldn't be illegal.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

joeyboy said:


> sorry to jump in here, since I keep no snakes let alone DWA ones my opinion is not worth a lot I understand, but I don't see what the big problem is?
> 
> I feed my tarantula livefood. Adult crickets, locusts etc. Now they can bite, there's a pic of a nasty bit a locust(or adult cricket i forget) gave a leopard gecko, right on it's face. However that isn't going to stop anyone from feeding their lizards and inverts livefood like crickets and locusts.
> 
> ...



The difference here is that a mouse or rat in 'life defence' mode is likely to do a LOT more damage to a snake than a cricket/locust etc will to a lizard. Do you fancy administering antibiotics to a pitviper??

Also invertebrates tend to be killed outright and have limited brain capacities and nervous systems whereas vertebrates (mice) are considered much more aware and they definitely feel pain - many snakes will 'wuss out' and just injure the mouse which IS illegal (essentially you can feed live vertebrates to another SO LONG as it is in the privacy of your own home and it does not cause undue suffering to the mouse)

At the end of the day - if your snake will take defrosted, humanely killed rodents it is a much better idea for all parties involved...


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

what it boils down is risk

risk in two areas.

firstly, by live feeding, there is a risk, however small, that this might be what the rodent does to your snake.. snakes do not ALWAYS eat when they are offered food.. or if they do, they do not always eat right away..




























the above are bite wounds inflicted on snakes by live rodents

the second risk is to yourself.. should the above happen.. even just small bite like the first pic.. see how that snake is being held, to look at the wound? so you REALLY want to get that personal with a hot snake, for NO REASON?? hots are not always easy to restrain, handle and treat safely, even i know that

if the snake will feed on dead prey, give it dead prey... less risk for the snake = better practise, and less risk to you the keeper.

Nerys


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Shocking pics Nerys, but a very well put post, thank you for showing us first hand!


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## motty123 (Oct 4, 2008)

I hate live feeding would never ever ever do iy unless i really had to i spent 18months trying to feed my royal on frozen and it worked


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

wow nasty wounds I must say, the leo got quite a bad bit from the insect on it's head too but nothing like those.

Does the snake just allow that, they look like the mouse has bitten and chewed at least a dozen times on them, surely the snake would strike in self defence until the rodent was immobilized.

Do they live feed in Europe? I heard somewhere they do more often, guess people have a different way of doing things.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

np.. i collect gory pics, for threads like this  sometimes an image speaks a 100o words and all that

i don't keep hots and do not post on here a lot, as most of it i am far from qualified to talk about, however, there are times i venture forth lol..

as to why a snake sits like that and "lets" that happen.. to be honest.. god only knows...

wounds like the top one are far more common, in the case of snakes that bits and hang on, if they happen to get a dodgy hold to begin with the rodent can turn round and nail the snake in the head in desperation..

most hots, i believe, strike, drop, and then go after.. so i am not sure how common that injury would be in hot keeping, but the bottom two injuries are clearly from a rodent who has taken its time to chew on the snake in question... 

either way, its best avoided.

many people in the reptile keeping world do feed live yes, and these sort of injuries are far more commonly seen in places like the states.

N


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

Nerys said:


> many people in the reptile keeping world do feed live yes, and these sort of injuries are far more commonly seen in places like the states.
> 
> N


i assume the snake in the middle pic is dead, brain exposed and all....

Are the second and third pics defo from bites? It just seems to me the extent of them and the wide area the scales are lost on looks more like photos of snakes when their stuck on hot heat mats and the scales burn off.


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## nocturnalbynature (Oct 24, 2008)

ah i have to say them pictures have 100% changed my mind! thats horrible!


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

nocturnalbynature said:


> ah i have to say them pictures have 100% changed my mind! thats horrible!


At last you "get it"!


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## nocturnalbynature (Oct 24, 2008)

lol i do.
is that snake dead? looks it!


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## Zimey (Sep 28, 2008)

Them pictures are shocking, i have never fed live and i never intended too, i always knew that there would be risks in leaving live in with your snake. But i never thought the extent of the damage they can do would be so high.

Seriously shocking.


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## alcon1984 (Jan 14, 2008)

Are you sure these pics are from live feeding?

Iv seen the 2nd and 3rd pic on another forum under a thread about unpertected heat lamps???


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

alcon1984 said:


> Are you sure these pics are from live feeding?
> 
> Iv seen the 2nd and 3rd pic on another forum under a thread about unpertected heat lamps???


i was thinking that, especially when it comes to the third photo, such damage right along the skin seems a little unusual. I thought I'd seen it before when someone talked about what happens if you have a heatmat under your tank which has no thermostat and the snake cant get off it.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Both the second and third photos look like rodent chew marks to me - in places it looks like a rat's chewed right through the skin and bone into the internal organs, but all of the skin/muscle/organs appear to be "normally" coloured.

Burns tend to have more discolouration around the damaged/sloughed away skin.

Given that I had the unfortunate experience this week of having a young male rat kill a very young pup that I'd put in the holding tub with him - and chew his skull open before I realised that the pup was doing more than "I'm being stood on" squeaks - I have no trouble believing that a rat left overnight with a snake that was perhaps too cold to feed (and thus probably too cold to defend itself) could inflict that much damage.


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

nocturnalbynature said:


> I want it all to be as natural as possible for the snake.
> *Money isnt an issue for me.*
> The amount of people on here breeding mice as live food i seriously doubt each has a snake unwilling to eat frozen..


Share the wealth then.


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## mr herp (Feb 11, 2009)

i have a king cobra and i let it all round my house and put it back when its time for inspections and btw i feed live i let loose a food my snake kills it i like giving them a natural experiance ps i have a little coller thing on him so i can find him its like a tracker


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## Aquai (Feb 11, 2009)

Troll much?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

mr herp said:


> i have a king cobra and i let it all round my house and put it back when its time for inspections and btw i feed live i let loose a food my snake kills it i like giving them a natural experiance ps i have a little coller thing on him so i can find him its like a tracker


:lol2: i recall a thread about you asking how to go about getting a licence a little while back.. sorry hun, the minimum age is 18... 

imagine it though.. O.hannah loose about your house, waking up in the morning to a 5m snake... would keep the jahovas witnesses out i guess... :whistling2:


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## ip3kid (May 21, 2008)

mr herp said:


> i have a king cobra and i let it all round my house and put it back when its time for inspections and btw i feed live i let loose a food my snake kills it i like giving them a natural experiance ps i have a little coller thing on him so i can find him its like a tracker


ROFL!!!!!!!!!!! Your a nugget dude.


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## mr herp (Feb 11, 2009)

if i wanna get a licence i get my mum to get 1 and ill pay for everything and the snake and that lol


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Have a good read here then http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/dwa-species/124942-how-get-dwa-license.html ... best of luck... :whistling2:


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## sandmatt (Oct 25, 2008)

mr herp said:


> if i wanna get a licence i get my mum to get 1 and ill pay for everything and the snake and that lol


No you wont , unless you plan on bribing.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

mr herp said:


> i have a king cobra and i let it all round my house and put it back when its time for inspections and btw i feed live i let loose a food my snake kills it i like giving them a natural experiance ps i have a little coller thing on him so i can find him its like a tracker


OMFG!! NO! Dont! Didnt you know!?

My brothers mates uncles dog walkers cousins daughters friends friend did that and she got sized up whilst she was alseep! The snake wanted to eat her!!!!!!


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## nocturnalbynature (Oct 24, 2008)

rofl how did he get banned


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## nocturnalbynature (Oct 24, 2008)

Owzy said:


> Share the wealth then.


lol ill consider it..


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## Katriana (Jul 20, 2011)

*Another lesson on why live feeding is risky. *

I have a python that got bitten on her tail during a live feeding. I didn't usually feed her anything live, but she quit eating anything else for a while. 
In spite of efforts to keep it clean, the wounds got infected and part of her tail had to be amputated, we started her on antibiotics, got her eating again, and got her improving after she began getting these odd boils. 
The result of those boils looks like a picture posted earlier.
New spots kept comig up and we've gotten through all the antibiotics, I have kept he cage clean and dry. Tonight, I fed her, treated the wounds, and noticed different swellings that made me more uneasy. I was very careful with her but made sure she could move and wasn't in pain. The spots were tender, but she wasn't acting like they hurt badly. 
However, when I came back in, she was twisted around pressing a swelling against the edge of her hide box and there was a couple of tablespoons of blood on the paper I'd lain down after cleaning. I lifted the box carefully and she looked dead for a moment. Right before I started screaming, she began moving and breathng normally and let me move her into a safer position. I checked her out and she seems to be able to move allright. The muscle seems like it may have torn in a spot, but it doesn't limit much movement. I cleaned it immediately with betadine, silver shield, aloe vera, and a small amount of A&D ointment. 
This is not scale rot. I have absolutely no clue what this is or why it is happening to her when we have been treating her with everything we could think of that would help. The initial bite happened in January, mind you. She's been on Batryl and Orbax, I have used granulex spray and hydrogen peroxide on her wounds, along with an array of other homeopathic medicines known to disinfect and aid healing. 
My questions are what the hell is this sickness and how do I SAVE HER?! 
If anyone has any kind of input, I'd love to hear it. 

No matter what kind of feeding problem your snake has,do not feed them live unles you know they will snap it up in under five minutes, carefully supervised. 
I wasn't because my grandfather had a heart attack and we had to start hospice care.


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