# UV & Dart Frogs



## FrogNick (Jul 2, 2009)

This should clear a few things up, or just start another argument!  

Frogs avoid damaging UV-B radiation, reducing extinction risk


*UVB* 
UVB affects the outer layer of skin, the epidermis, and is the primary agent responsible for sunburns. It is the most intense between the hours of 10:00 am and 2:00 pm when the sunlight is brightest. It is also more intense in the summer months accounting for 70% of a person's yearly UVB dose. UVB does not penetrate glass.


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Uh-oh....

Here we go again.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

What i gather the article is trying to say is that in the wild the depletion of the ozone layer has made the UVB rays to strong and the frogs are now avoiding it. 
UVB is needed by frogs to produce D3, and is a big help in bone disfigurment. This is some thing that has been proven many times. The fact that they find places with lower levels of UVB does not mean that they do not need it, it just means global warming has made the once safe UVB unbearable.
I dont think this article proves that UVB is needed or not, it just confirms what we all ready know, the wrong level or to much exposure to UVB can be as bad if not worse that having none at all.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

knighty said:


> What i gather the article is trying to say is that in the wild the depletion of the ozone layer has made the UVB rays to strong and the frogs are now avoiding it.
> UVB is needed by frogs to produce D3, and is a big help in bone disfigurment. This is some thing that has been proven many times. The fact that they find places with lower levels of UVB does not mean that they do not need it, it just means global warming has made the once safe UVB unbearable.
> I dont think this article proves that UVB is needed or not, it just confirms what we all ready know, the wrong level or to much exposure to UVB can be as bad if not worse that having none at all.


Uh huh.

What I read from the article is that frogs are capable of discerning what level of UV is too much or too little.


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Uh huh.
> 
> What I read from the article is that frogs are capable of discerning what level of UV is too much or too little.


Therefore providing cover is available, the frog can move into or out of the exposure areas as it sees fit.

Score one for UVB!


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## FrogNick (Jul 2, 2009)

i agree, with all your comments but what it's saying they need very small amounts so a UV bulb in a viv is a no no for adult frogs?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

FrogNick said:


> i agree, with all your comments but what it's saying they need very small amounts so a UV bulb in a viv is a no no for adult frogs?


I'd think that, seeing as UV as been shown to be beneficial, and taking into account this article the best course of action would to be to provide the option of UV, or perhaps a gradient.


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## FrogNick (Jul 2, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> I'd think that, seeing as UV as been shown to be beneficial, and taking into account this article the best course of action would to be to provide the option of UV, or perhaps a gradient.



Yes but it’s a small amount they need, you will overdose with a bulb, then again it doesn’t penetrate glass... so most people don’t have bulbs inside the viv and yet we still manage to keep and breed the frog successfully. :whistling2:


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

Here is an interesting bit for you then...

My tank has a temp gradiant, as most do, I have always used bulbs to maintain this. All of my frogs (but especially the adult) sleep in the same place night after night....I decided to place a 5.0 bulb in one (unused) holder in both of my tanks...The bulbs are only effective up to 12 inches, and now all three of my frogs have moved down the tank...towards the middle (where according to the box, the uv would be unnaffective)...

Is this my frogs telling me they dont like it?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

My frogs have now moved towards the UV..........


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

Interesting...what frogs morgan...it is my red eyes I am referring to....


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Peacock/Big Eyed....Theyre either in the branches or under the UV just before dark (when they will be getting up)

The tiger legs sleep all over the place, low, high, left right, under UV, not under...


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## FrogNick (Jul 2, 2009)

ilovetoads2 said:


> Interesting...what frogs morgan...it is my red eyes I am referring to....


 Red eyes are nocturnal so they need even less UV or none at all....


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

FrogNick said:


> Red eyes are nocturnal so they need even less UV or none at all....


Not trueeeeee!

UV penetrates leaves n that when Red Eyes sleep in the day.

My White's are nocturnal and they sleep right up the top of the glass under the 5% bulb.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

FrogNick said:


> i agree, with all your comments but what it's saying they need very small amounts so a UV bulb in a viv is a no no for adult frogs?


I think you have missinterpritated the paper. its not by any means saying that they do not need uvb, it is saying that the deplition of the ozone layer is making the rays to high and second its saying they have regulate them selfs by hiding and avoiding potential leathal areas. In captivity its all about choice, i would recomend to any one to use a 2% tube, but provide lots of hiding places were they can retreat if they wish to. UVB is just as important to aduts as juveniles. Exo terras are the choice vivarium for most keepers and the mesh DOES allow the UVB to penetrate. Frogs were and have been kept without UVB, but how succesfully? I use a 2% and a 5% UVB bulb in my exo terra, and my red eyes will happily sleep under the bulb at the top of the tank, the gradient and height of the tank allows them to controll how much and when they become exposed. Its the same as you should do with the temperatures.
UVB penetrates to the forst floor, if it did not how would Dendrobates come into contact with it? UVB quiet rightly penetrates the leaves, and reaches all frogs, even nocturnal ones.


I love toads, this may not have any thing to do with the UVB rays, have you used a digital thermometer in the old sleeping location before and after the bulb? there isa high chance that the extrat bulb would of increased the temperature enough to make the sleep in a lower position. These amphibians are ectothermic so they can only adjust there body temperature to the surrounds there in. Aif the bulb you have only penertrates up to 12 inches, how do the plants gain any thing from this?


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

Did I not read on this forum that a 2% is actually not supposed to be called that cause of not enough UV...or did I misread?

Also, the 5.0 is said to be suitable and recommended for rainforest animals...so...isnt this the one to use? 

This is probably the main aspect of amphib care that confuses the hell out of me...this and pumps!:devil:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Pumps!?


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

ilovetoads2 said:


> Did I not read on this forum that a 2% is actually not supposed to be called that cause of not enough UV...or did I misread?
> 
> Also, the 5.0 is said to be suitable and recommended for rainforest animals...so...isnt this the one to use?
> 
> This is probably the main aspect of amphib care that confuses the hell out of me...this and pumps!:devil:


I read the same. That a 2% let's out very little or zero UV and that you shouldn't use it on it's own if you want to provide UV to your animals.

You didn't misread.


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## Eleanor Jones (Aug 3, 2008)

Firstly I would say I don't think you should lump all amphibians together regarding their needs for UV. Among reptiles for example, some will die if they don't get lot of UV, some are entirely nocturnal and don't require it at all. I expect they get their vitamins from their diet.

Among amphibians, we may well have a similar situation where some species need it and some don't, or need it in different amounts. I know from personal experience, and that of a number of other people, that poison dart frogs grow and stay healthy and strong when kept with no UV bulb, but with daylight spectrum light through glass or plastic, and given vitamin supplements which include D3.

If anyone has actually done an experiment to see whether they do better or worse with UV then that will be interesting to hear. Otherwise it's basically speculation.


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## Eleanor Jones (Aug 3, 2008)

knighty said:


> UVB is needed by frogs to produce D3


I believe that most keepers of poison dart frogs (at least the ones I know, and also according to caresheets I have read) dust the food with a vitamin supplement which contains D3, so in those cases they get it through their diet. What the main source of D3 for poison dart frogs in the wild is (i.e. from their food or made by themselves after exposure to UV) I have no idea. I wonder if anyone does.


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## FrogNick (Jul 2, 2009)

earth-tiger said:


> I believe that most keepers of poison dart frogs (at least the ones I know, and also according to caresheets I have read) dust the food with a vitamin supplement which contains D3, so in those cases they get it through their diet. What the main source of D3 for poison dart frogs in the wild is (i.e. from their food or made by themselves after exposure to UV) I have no idea. I wonder if anyone does.



If UV only produces D3 then supplements can replace that. This reduces the risk to the frog from having too much UV exposure. UV radiation is another factor in the amphibian decline.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

earth-tiger said:


> I believe that most keepers of poison dart frogs (at least the ones I know, and also according to caresheets I have read) dust the food with a vitamin supplement which contains D3, so in those cases they get it through their diet. What the main source of D3 for poison dart frogs in the wild is (i.e. from their food or made by themselves after exposure to UV) I have no idea. I wonder if anyone does.


D3 is not directly gained from the intacke of supplyments, or in the case of wild dendrobatid frogs their diet. It is taken inot the body by foods and UVB helps the motabalism to produce and intake it. (Thats the basics any way) Most Day light bulbs do contain a certain level of UVB amounts the spectrum. A 2% UVB bulb does give off very little UVB, BUT it is still sending the rays into the tank, but to be fair i have always used them in conjunction with a 5%. Perhaps my post was a little missleading, What i should of said is that the minimum you should have is 2%.


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## fazzarooney (Aug 24, 2009)

My opion is uv is defently needed in a frogs upgrowing and structure of there body!


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Boy... I'm going to need to find about two hours to answer this tomorrow...

:whistling2:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Saedcantas said:


> Boy... I'm going to need to find about two hours to answer this tomorrow...
> 
> :whistling2:


Or you could make a new post about UV and sticky it? :flrt:


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Or you could make a new post about UV and sticky it? :flrt:


True! Problem is I really can't elaborate on our current research which leaves my hands pretty tied on this topic at the moment. 
I can certainly make a topic outlining the obviousness of UVB benefitting amphibians in captivity and explain various basic concepts, but I can't go into why I am 100% certain of it. People always want evidence and we're still amassing it for publication so...

We'll see


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## Eleanor Jones (Aug 3, 2008)

Saedcantas said:


> True! Problem is I really can't elaborate on our current research which leaves my hands pretty tied on this topic at the moment.
> I can certainly make a topic outlining the obviousness of UVB benefitting amphibians in captivity and explain various basic concepts, but I can't go into why I am 100% certain of it. People always want evidence and we're still amassing it for publication so...
> 
> We'll see


I'll be very interested to hear this, as much as you can say anyway! Even if you can't actually offer proof until publication. Everyone here wants the best for their animals but it isn't clear what the best actually is, and why, so the more research done the better. We only know what's worked for us so far.


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## Eleanor Jones (Aug 3, 2008)

knighty said:


> Most Day light bulbs do contain a certain level of UVB amounts the spectrum. A 2% UVB bulb does give off very little UVB, BUT it is still sending the rays into the tank


Yes, a very small amount will certainly be getting in to my frogs' tanks, from the daylight spectrum tubes. And with others that I've seen among the dart frog keepers I've visited. It may be that they need that and wouldn't do well without it in the long term, but I don't know. That's the way that's been found to work, so that's what we do. I'm not so sure they're getting 2% though. I don't know what percentage it would be. 

I've never wanted to experiment with mine so I stick with what I know works well for me until I learn anything different. I do know that with the very low level they're getting they're healthy. I would be very wary of giving poison dart frogs higher levels of UV without being having good reason to believe that it would benefit them and not hurt them. If I ever find that to be the case then I'll up the UV levels.


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Pumps!?


Yeah. I hate the things! And bulbs...I just was using daylight cause it made sense and the guy that sold me my first frogs said to use them...decided to try UV after all of the chats and because my plants were dying...still dont know what a broad spectrum bulb is...I guess I jsut dont find it interesting enough to want to spend ages researching like I do frogs and other stuff...?

Keeping to UV. I have decided that since I put it in on Tuesday, although my frogs have moved sleeping positions by a few inches (still under leaves) that it must make a difference to the plants because over night my orchid has started to flower again...so I am going to stick with it until I hear otherwise, cause I have lots of cover by way of large leaves and the frogs usually sleep in the shade of these with no skin in light at all...


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

My dart frogs have a 2% and a 5% uvb tube with them, the visual light spectrum is different.
i am sure my forgs benefit from the uvb and wouldnt do anything different, if you spent money and time etc on the frogs and the right set up for them then why skimp on the lighting??


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

earth-tiger said:


> I've never wanted to experiment with mine so I stick with what I know works well for me until I learn anything different


Thats a fair enough statment, cant argue with that...


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Saedcantas said:


> True! Problem is I really can't elaborate on our current research which leaves my hands pretty tied on this topic at the moment.
> I can certainly make a topic outlining the obviousness of UVB benefitting amphibians in captivity and explain various basic concepts, but I can't go into why I am 100% certain of it. People always want evidence and we're still amassing it for publication so...
> 
> We'll see



Ill do you a deal, ill do half, you do half........


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## FrogNick (Jul 2, 2009)

What we need is a large viv a uv blub in one end frogs and a uv meter and see where the frogs prefer to located themselves. If they can detect UV then they can decided what levels they require and with a UV meter we can measure this. We can then say how much UV is required for dart frogs only, just an idea...

What I would also like to say is that I have met quite a few of the UK breeders now and they have a large collection of frogs (rooms full of them) and none of them have UV lights from what I could see, and yet they have some stunning frogs and a very healthy breeding program.


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## Eleanor Jones (Aug 3, 2008)

FrogNick said:


> I have met quite a few of the UK breeders now and they have a large collection of frogs (rooms full of them) and none of them have UV lights from what I could see, and yet they have some stunning frogs and a very healthy breeding program.


Yes, this is what I've found. Daylight spectrum bulbs maybe (for the plants), but not specifically UV, so any UV levels they are exposed to are really low. I assume that most of the UK captive bred dart frogs available are raised under those conditions.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Took about 2.5 hours, phew!:mf_dribble:


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