# How Dangerous???



## Joolz1975

Hi

Sorry if this is a really stupis question but just how dangerous are DWA animals to humans??

I mean ive read the guidelines secure room,reinforced glass, etc.... but accidents do happen and im sure you all go to great lengths to ensure the safety of your animals,yourselves and the general public BUT if the worst was to happen how likely is a viper or cobra of some sort to attack your average person that stumbles across it??

I have noooo experience at all with snakes (well fed my brothers corn snake once but had to hold the pinky from a pair of BBQ tongs) and snakes fascinate me but scare me all at the same time so i apologise if its a REALLY stupid question but my son is getting interested in keeping reptiles at the moment so im sort of trying to get interested in them and am quite curious!

Thanks in advance

Joolz​


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## BigA

Well if I got bitten by a venomous snake I would be crapping my pants.
Good job I dont keep them. I would keep an alligator or some thing like a komodo dragon, but never something that's bite is designed to kill.
I hope this helps.
:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## Jade01

If you look at it this way... All the animals on the DWA lisence can and do have the potential to kill a person


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## Joolz1975

Jade01 said:


> If you look at it this way... All the animals on the DWA lisence can and do have the potential to kill a person


Hmm i know if i went up to one like an idiot and started aggrevating it i would probably die :gasp: but would one go out of its way to attack a human or more likely to ignore and hide??

Bloody hell im gettign paranoid now, probably wont sleep tonight incase mi moggie attacks me :lol2:
Have any ever escaped from a private collection (mean reptiles more than big cats etc..)


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## Jade01

I've never kept DWA so take this with a pinch of salt. Obviously idividual depending, but its not in their best interest to attack everything they see-waste of energy. But from the ones I've worked with, this rule didn't apply to many of them lol!
Most sensible people don't free handle their DWA stuff either, hooks only tends to be the rule. In the keepers and animals best interest tbh.
I don't think that since the act was put into place that any have escaped


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## Joolz1975

Jade01 said:


> I've never kept DWA so take this with a pinch of salt. Obviously idividual depending, but its not in their best interest to attack everything they see-waste of energy. But from the ones I've worked with, this rule didn't apply to many of them lol!
> Most sensible people don't free handle their DWA stuff either, hooks only tends to be the rule. In the keepers and animals best interest tbh.
> *I don't think that since the act was put into place that any have escaped*


Well thats reassuring then! I assume DWA keepers are super careful and checked often to be sure everythings ok in their best interest to be careful.


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## stuartdouglas

Jade01 said:


> If you look at it this way... All the animals on the DWA lisence can and do have the potential to kill a person


No they don't. Only two of the buthid scorpions on the list are attributed "mankillers"
Only one spider is fatal if untreated, and not all the snakes on the list will kill if not treated.


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## Herpmad V2.0

i would def recomemed beinbg very carful with DWA lmfao


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## Jabba the mentor

Joolz1975 said:


> ​
> I mean ive read the guidelines secure room,reinforced glass, ect​
> 
> ​


Is that forum "expert" guidelines???


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## Jade01

stuartdouglas said:


> No they don't. Only two of the buthid scorpions on the list are attributed "mankillers"
> Only one spider is fatal if untreated, and not all the snakes on the list will kill if not treated.


 
Ah yeah sorry, forgot bout the buthids.

Still wouldnt fancy a sting lol!


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## Joolz1975

Jabba the mentor said:


> Is that forum "expert" guidelines???



Well yeh as I'm obviously no expert on reptiles at all just curious I just read up on what I could find on here! Up until a few days ago I had no idea that people could just keep venemous snakes, didn't know they were available in the UK at all so I'm curious that my neighbour for example could have a room full of dangerous snakes and me not have a clue!

Not sayin it's wrong to own them, dare say I'm in more danger from my neighbours jack Russell but it does make you wonder!


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## panther_87k

i'd find it quite amuzing if my next door neighbours were keeping DWA's coz theyre both old biddies!:lol2:


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## pymn nice but dim

BigA said:


> Well if I got bitten by a venomous snake I would be crapping my pants.
> Good job I dont keep them. I would keep an alligator or some thing like a komodo dragon, but never something that's bite is designed to kill.
> I hope this helps.
> :lol2::lol2::lol2:


 komodo bites are stupidly deadly arnt they? i think it was a doucmentry i watched about them theyre nt venomous just the bacteria from rotting meat they eat can kill a human within a means of hours literly being poisoned by the :censor: in theyre mouths correct me if im wrong just a quick memory flash?


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## kelboy

pymn nice but dim said:


> komodo bites are stupidly deadly arnt they? i think it was a doucmentry i watched about them theyre nt venomous just the bacteria from rotting meat they eat can kill a human within a means of hours literly being poisoned by the :censor: in theyre mouths correct me if im wrong just a quick memory flash?


This question came up on another thread, as I didn't think they were venomous either, probably due to the same programme. But apparently, fairly recent studies have shown them to have venom glands, along with other monitor lizards.


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## kelboy

Here's the page.On the same page is a link to an article on the discovery.


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## PDR

BigA said:


> *Well if I got bitten by a venomous snake I would be crapping my pants.*
> Good job I dont keep them. I would keep an alligator or some thing like a komodo dragon, but never something that's bite is designed to kill.
> I hope this helps.
> :lol2::lol2::lol2:


That is a distinct possibility with some bites.


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## Jb1432

BigA said:


> Well if I got bitten by a venomous snake I would be crapping my pants.
> Good job I dont keep them. I would keep an alligator or some thing like a komodo dragon, but never something that's bite is designed to kill.
> I hope this helps.
> :lol2::lol2::lol2:


All Crocodylidae have bites designed to kill as far as im aware. They use the power and sheer pressure of their jaws to break the bones and rip the prey apart to kill them quickly and easily without getting injured theirselves.


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## Cranwelli

And a komodo dragon's bite is designed to kill. Not to the same effect as a crocodile but it would still do some serious infected damage.


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## dave1992

BigA said:


> Well if I got bitten by a venomous snake I would be crapping my pants.
> Good job I dont keep them. I would keep an alligator or some thing like a komodo dragon, but never something that's bite is designed to kill.
> I hope this helps.
> :lol2::lol2::lol2:


Sorry but arent most predators all designed to kill :lol2: coudl just be me, but i think komodos and alligators are definatly designed to kill
and im sorry but im probably wrong aswell but isnt it their saliva thts venomous? i thought i read taht somewhere


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## BigA

I just ment that snakes are small and extremely quick. Komodo dragons and alligator/crocodiles are bigger, so you can read there movements better. Well thats my opinion any way:2thumb:
You guys are 100% right, they are deadly!!!


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## atum

dave1992 said:


> Sorry but arent most predators all designed to kill :lol2: coudl just be me, but i think komodos and alligators are definatly designed to kill
> and im sorry but im probably wrong aswell but isnt it their saliva thts venomous? i thought i read taht somewhere


Their saliva is full of bactaria that has the potential to kill you. Plus they have very powerful jaws, so thats gonna hurt a bit too 



kelboy said:


> This question came up on another thread, as I didn't think they were venomous either, probably due to the same programme. But apparently, fairly recent studies have shown them to have venom glands, along with other monitor lizards.


I have read about this as well. But doubt they ever get used. The Gila Monster and Beaded Lizard are both venomous, but very rarely use their venom. Once their jaws close down on prey it's not getting away alive. Same with most big lizards...


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## dave1992

BigA said:


> I just ment that snakes are small and extremely quick. Komodo dragons and alligator/crocodiles are bigger, so you can read there movements better. Well thats my opinion any way:2thumb:
> You guys are 100% right, they are deadly!!!


Yeah fair point u can kinda tell when a snake is going strike, lol even tho ive only got a corn snake its good way of experiencing the behavior.:2thumb: Fair point mate


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## smithy08

BigA said:


> I would keep an alligator or some thing like a komodo dragon, but never something that's bite is designed to kill.


????lol wot???


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## MilkMan

BigA said:


> I just ment that snakes are small and extremely quick. Komodo dragons and alligator/crocodiles are bigger, so you can read there movements better. Well thats my opinion any way:2thumb:
> You guys are 100% right, they are deadly!!!


Snakes are small?
I'm not sure mate, but last time I checked Fluffy (Bob Clarkes) retic was no where near small....

And yes, while you can read the movements with alligators, and crocodiles you'd still be taking a major risk, which could also be proved fatal.


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## snakeboy101

Jb1432 said:


> All Crocodylidae have bites designed to kill as far as im aware. They use the power and sheer pressure of their jaws to break the bones and rip the prey apart to kill them quickly and easily without getting injured theirselves.


I was always thought that it wasnt the bite that killed you, it was being dragged into the water and drowned which was the killer blow.


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## Aqua_jeeper

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BigA*
> _I just ment that snakes are small and extremely quick. Komodo dragons and alligator/crocodiles are bigger, so you can read there movements better. Well thats my opinion any way:2thumb:
> You guys are 100% right, they are deadly!!!_
> 
> Snakes are small?
> I'm not sure mate, but last time I checked Fluffy (Bob Clarkes) retic was no where near small....
> 
> And yes, while you can read the movements with alligators, and crocodiles you'd still be taking a major risk, which could also be proved fatal.


True but then Fluffy will be a lot slower and more predictable than say a Mangrove snake less than a quarter Fluffys size!! Think this is what the guy is getting at!


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## kelboy

atum said:


> Their saliva is full of bactaria that has the potential to kill you. Plus they have very powerful jaws, so thats gonna hurt a bit too
> 
> 
> 
> I have read about this as well. But doubt they ever get used. The Gila Monster and Beaded Lizard are both venomous, but very rarely use their venom. Once their jaws close down on prey it's not getting away alive. Same with most big lizards...


But the Helodermas actually hold their prey until it's dead, Varanus komodoensis bites and lets its prey flee. It can't rely on bacteria to kill or incapacitate its next meal.


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## Snakes Incorporated

Snakes do not attack humans. These animals aggressively defend themselves if interfered with. 
If you were to be a mouse them I am afraid you would be attacked and consumed.:gasp:


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## Snakes Incorporated

The world's largest living lizard, the Komodo Dragon (Varanus komodoensis) has a poisonous *bacteria *in its saliva and is not venomous.

The Gila Monster (Heloderma suspectum) has venom ducts between its teeth so secretes venom into the wound via its saliva. 

The Bearded Dragon Lizard (Pogona barbata) is recommended for children so can’t be considered as a dangerous animal due to its Salad diet. 
This lizard may have bacteria in the saliva but we humans have a more toxic bite than these animals.


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## wildlifewarrior

Snakes Incorporated said:


> The world's largest living lizard, the Komodo Dragon (Varanus komodoensis) has a poisonous *bacteria *in its saliva and is not venomous.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> it is venomous though....theres alot of infomation on it: victory:


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## Snakes Incorporated

Technically venom is retained in a venom sack. If the saliva has a toxic bacteria this does not mean the saliva is venomous. 
For an example: If people bite people and our bacteria in or saliva causes an medical infection, this does not mean we are venomous.


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## olivine

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Technically venom is retained in a venom sack. If the saliva has a toxic bacteria this does not mean the saliva is venomous.
> For an example: If people bite people and our bacteria in or saliva causes an medical infection, this does not mean we are venomous.


Actually, they _are_ venomous;

A central role for venom in predation by Varanus komodoensis (Komodo Dragon) and the extinct giant Varanus (Megalania) priscus ? PNAS

Venom is Komodo dragon's lethal weapon - Times Online


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## Snakes Incorporated

I am not disputing an opinion because this is what it is. If you or anyone else wants to believe that toxic saliva is venom then any human or animal that’s bite causes infection is venomous.

I disagree with one or two observations by Bryan Grieg Fry and have no problem saying that this particular opinion has no logic no matter what anyone says. Fry recons that all species of snake are venomous due to the potential infection after a bite.

My opinion is that this theory has no basic scientific proof and in short is BULL because my corn snake is non-venomous no matter what anyone says.


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## kelboy

Snakes Incorporated said:


> I am not disputing an opinion because this is what it is. If you or anyone else wants to believe that toxic saliva is venom then any human or animal that’s bite causes infection is venomous.
> 
> I disagree with one or two observations by Bryan Grieg Fry and have no problem saying that this particular opinion has no logic no matter what anyone says. Fry recons that all species of snake are venomous due to the potential infection after a bite.
> 
> My opinion is that this theory has no basic scientific proof and in short is BULL because my corn snake is non-venomous no matter what anyone says.


*Magnetic resonance imaging scans have shown, however, that Komodos have glands in their mouths that produce venom similar to that of many snakes.*

The lizard’s sharp, serrated teeth open up wounds into which the venom flows from the gland that runs along the jawline. The venom acts as an anticoagulant, increasing the blood flow and reducing blood pressure, sending the victim into shock. The victim’s blood cannot clot and it bleeds to death.

Still just an opinion?


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## MJ75

"This year a Komodo stalked a poacher for several days before killing and eating him. "

Shame.....


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## stuartdouglas

shame it took so long


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## paraman

Snakes Incorporated said:


> I am not disputing an opinion because this is what it is. If you or anyone else wants to believe that toxic saliva is venom then any human or animal that’s bite causes infection is venomous.
> 
> I disagree with one or two observations by Bryan Grieg Fry and have no problem saying that this particular opinion has no logic no matter what anyone says. Fry recons that all species of snake are venomous due to the potential infection after a bite.
> 
> My opinion is that this theory has no basic scientific proof and in short is BULL because my corn snake is non-venomous no matter what anyone says.


Let me think hard on this one, a world renowned toxicologists opinion or your opinion humm tough call!


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## chewy86

dwa erm yeh ill leave that to the big boys little too risky for myself i like living and dont want to lose a limb either ;-)


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## Snakes Incorporated

paraman said:


> Let me think hard on this one, a world renowned toxicologists opinion or your opinion humm tough call!


Paraman not all scientists agree on everything said or commonly accepted. Scientists are human and like you and I make mistakes unintentionally and sometimes intentionally to impress using unproven theories. 
I am contacting Bryan personally regards this issue and will up date you when I have concluded my request.
If a Komodo dragon is discovered to have venom ducts and not reliant on bacteria in its salvia I would very much like to be made aware why no one else ever discovered this very important piece of information.

Unlike most I personaly do not believe everything I read no matter who authors it. I also question any authority (respectfully) if the teaching or information supplied does not contain proof or seems illogical.


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## kelboy

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Paraman not all scientists agree on everything said or commonly accepted. Scientists are human and like you and I make mistakes unintentionally and sometimes intentionally to impress using unproven theories.
> I am contacting Bryan personally regards this issue and will up date you when I have concluded my request.
> If a Komodo dragon is discovered to have venom ducts and not reliant on bacteria in its salvia I would very much like to be made aware why no one else ever discovered this very important piece of information.
> 
> Unlike most I personaly do not believe everything I read no matter who authors it. I also question any authority (respectfully) if the teaching or information supplied does not contain proof or seems illogical.


*Magnetic resonance imaging scans have shown, however, that Komodos have glands in their mouths that produce venom similar to that of many snakes.*

The lizard’s sharp, serrated teeth open up wounds into which the venom flows from the gland that runs along the jawline. The venom acts as an anticoagulant, increasing the blood flow and reducing blood pressure, sending the victim into shock. The victim’s blood cannot clot and it bleeds to death.


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## Snakes Incorporated

Kelboy you are quoting what I’ve said and you are quoting what the article says. If you have an opinion on the subject you are welcome to share but quoting for the sake of quoting is a waste of a post.:bash:


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## ian14

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Paraman not all scientists agree on everything said or commonly accepted. Scientists are human and like you and I make mistakes unintentionally and sometimes intentionally to impress using unproven theories.
> I am contacting Bryan personally regards this issue and will up date you when I have concluded my request.
> If a Komodo dragon is discovered to have venom ducts and not reliant on bacteria in its salvia I would very much like to be made aware why no one else ever discovered this very important piece of information.
> 
> Unlike most I personaly do not believe everything I read no matter who authors it. I also question any authority (respectfully) if the teaching or information supplied does not contain proof or seems illogical.


May I enquire as to your scientific background/training/qualifications?
I would suggest that the reason no-one had discovered that komodo's have venom ducts is because no one actually looked into it until Dr Fry! Lets not forget that at one time people thought the world was flat and refused to believe otherwise, as the people of the time did not believe what they were told/read about.
The assertion that most snakes are venomous, made by Dr Fry, is based on the recovery of toxic elements from salivary secretions of species commonly held to be non venomous. This is documented, with yields, on www.venomdoc.com which is Dr Fry's site.

Back to the original question, while sat bored at work recently I came across the entire document from the 2007 DWAA review which contained the history of how the legislation came into place and evolved today. I was a little surprised at how badly thought out it was originally. The original criteria for an animal to be considered for inclusion was ... if it caused an injury more severe than a scratch from a feral domestic cat!!


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## Snakes Incorporated

ian14 I do not wish to brag about who I am and what I know and how long I have been qualified at doing it.
This is the first mistake people make. They think that because someone happens to be a professor or a doctor they are gods and cannot be questioned. As you have seen for yourself that sometimes even well meant policies are badly written or implemented due to the legislators not taking the time to questioning what was being told to them by a recognized ‘authority’.
I have personally emailed Bryan and await his communication.

If the animal has venom glands so be it. If a reptile lacks this piece of anatomy it is not venomous because the saliva cannot be considered venomous but poisonous due to what ever the reason. If you dispute this as a fact then explain why and give your reasoning behind your opinion.


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## ian14

Snakes Incorporated said:


> ian14 I do not wish to brag about who I am and what I know and how long I have been qualified at doing it.
> This is the first mistake people make. They think that because someone happens to be a professor or a doctor they are gods and cannot be questioned. As you have seen for yourself that sometimes even well meant policies are badly written or implemented due to the legislators not taking the time to questioning what was being told to them by a recognized ‘authority’.
> I have personally emailed Bryan and await his communication.
> 
> If the animal has venom glands so be it. If a reptile lacks this piece of anatomy *it is not venomous because the saliva cannot be considered* *venomous but poisonous* due to what ever the reason. If you dispute this as a fact then explain why and give your reasoning behind your opinion.


Unless I am mistaken, the difference between "venomous" and "poisonous", albeit a blurred difference, is that venom is produced by an animal and can be directly injected or introduced by way of bite/sting/scratch whereas something which is "poisonous" is harmful if ingested, for example denrobates would be considered poisonous, not venomous. The duvernoys gland also produces venom, as well as the venom gland of elapids and viperids.
While I appreciate your wish not to "brag about who I am and what I know" I only raised this as it does seem, on many sections of the forum, that there are a few people who try to make out they are something they are not. But I can only assume that from your comment, "They think that because someone happens to be a professor or a doctor they are gods and cannot be questioned" that you are not such a person.
There is also a huge difference between badly thought, poorly worded policies, and scientific research conducted by leading authorities, who incidentally hold their posts and qualifications after years of hard, dedicated research and study.
And in terms of the DWAA, you may like to know that the legislation was drawn up after speaking to a handful of vets and zoo keepers, not wolrd-renowned leading authorities.


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## geodaryl

BigA said:


> Well if I got bitten by a venomous snake I would be crapping my pants.
> Good job I dont keep them. I would keep an alligator or some thing like a komodo dragon, but never something that's bite is designed to kill.
> I hope this helps.
> :lol2::lol2::lol2:


Oh right, so an alligator or komodo's bite isn't designed to kill. Hmmmm.... I'd rather be bitten by a snake and try to get the venom out, than something that could just eat me in one bite... lol


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## Snakes Incorporated

Ian14 your synopsis of the difference between poisonous and venomous is agreeable and in my opinion accurate. I disagree with the theory that all elapids are venomous as some do not have the anatomy but that is another thread.
We in the Western Cape/South Africa have a (Herpetological) Doctor running the science department of the 'conservation' authority. Though this person has the say of what he deems legal and appropriate for us I have factually proved that some of his policies and procedures are questionable. 

As he is a doctor he feels that anyone questioning him or his rickety policies is committing some sort of blasphemy against him. I have no time for closed minded people who are unable to see fault with themselves or unable to use a measure of reasonable logic or be tested on it. I personally enjoy theories but hesitate to deem them science without reasonable proof proving this as a fact no matter who authors it.


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## kelboy

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Kelboy you are quoting what I’ve said and you are quoting what the article says. If you have an opinion on the subject you are welcome to share but quoting for the sake of quoting is a waste of a post.:bash:


I was attempting to point out that the presence of venom glands had been *scientifically proven* despite your denial of this fact. Hence my quote and post. Then your evident ignorance of my original post which triggered my second.


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## Snakes Incorporated

Kelboy you quoted the same post twice without an explanation. 

As being called ignorant by you. I will ignore your immaturity this time. Regards your suggestion that one person’s discovery can be considered as a proven scientific finding. Hmmm

I am not personally convinced of this as a fact but will happily consider this when I have done some corresponding research myself. I am in no way disproving or denying anything but need to personally verify the facts before just accepting any old thing as evidence.


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## kelboy

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Kelboy you quoted the same post twice without an explanation.
> 
> As being called ignorant by you. I will ignore your immaturity this time. Regards your suggestion that one person’s discovery can be considered as a proven scientific finding. Hmmm
> 
> I am not personally convinced of this as a fact but will happily consider this when I have done some corresponding research myself. I am in no way disproving or denying anything but need to personally verify the facts before just accepting any old thing as evidence.


I have now explained my double post. And I didn't call you ignorant, maybe I should've worded it differently, but you _appeared ignorant _to me. Originally, you did deny that any scientific research had proven the presence of venom glands. But I now respect the fact that you are open to either conclusion.: victory:


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## Lamprophis

Snakes Incorporated said:


> The world's largest living lizard, the Komodo Dragon (Varanus komodoensis) has a poisonous *bacteria *in its saliva and is not venomous.


- Is a very bold statement considering your obvious neglect for the scientific research which has proved that Komodo's do in fact have venom glands... and just incase you need that clarifying - it means they are venomous!

Also, I can see you are trying to discredit the afformentioned scientist just to make yourself look a little less silly for not knowing this in the first place.


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## Snakes Incorporated

Lamprophis need I say ... 





Snakes Incorporated said:


> ... I am in no way disproving or denying anything but need to personally verify the facts before just accepting any old thing as evidence.


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## Lamprophis

Cool... well let me know when you carry out these studies... it should be a right laugh to see you prove something that's already scientifically proven... : victory:

p.s - ladies and gentlemen, I think we may well have another Raymond Hoser on our hands!!​


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## Snakes Incorporated

Lamprophis said:


> p.s - ladies and gentlemen, I think we may well have another Raymond Hoser on our hands!!


Look pal take a flying hike jou moer blizem :biteme:


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## stuartdouglas

Who are you then? Real name, I mean.............


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## Azemiops

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Look pal take a flying hike jou moer blizem :biteme:


 
Alright Hoser calm down!


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## Cleopatra the Royal

Jade01 said:


> If you look at it this way... All the animals on the DWA lisence can and do have the potential to kill a person


 
Bandy-bandys are on the DWA, but aren't really dangerous at all to humans.

Harry


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## jamestheball

However you would be hard pressed to keep a bandy bandy alive in captivity as they specialize on blind snakes and don't eat anything else. 
Their venom is extremely powerful against blind snakes but harmless to humans, the worst it could do would be like a hognose bite.
Their are also many other australian elapids that are on DWA but completely harmless i.e. Australian coral snake, orange naped snake and various whip snakes and burrowing snakes. they are still DWA elapids but harmless.: victory:


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## hoggy

*venomous snakes*

If i got bit i would be dead and im glad im not keeping posinous snakes because i would not last one second:2thumb:


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## Ssthisto

hoggy said:


> If i got bit i would be dead and im glad im not keeping posinous snakes because i would not last one second:2thumb:


Actually, the two poisonous snakes (both toxic because of their diet if I remember rightly) are pretty easy to keep - one of them is a species of garter snake, and although you wouldn't like EATING it, being bitten by it is not all that big a deal unless you're a toad or frog.

And being bitten by a venomous snake doesn't automatically mean you're dead in an instant either. 

Snakes Incorporated: Surely the only way you could yourself identify whether or not Komodos and other monitors have venom glands... is to dissect them yourself? Seems a bit harsh on the poor monitors if you're only doing it because you don't believe someone else's research.


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## naja-naja

Jade01 said:


> If you look at it this way... All the animals on the DWA lisence can and do have the potential to kill a person


 emmm, unless we are counting babies then no, small primates, small carnivores, gila monsters, exotic cats and others cannot kill your average person.


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## slippery42

Raymond Hoser.............is that a swear word!

T8at comes to mind


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## Snakes Incorporated

Ssthisto said:


> ... you don't believe someone else's research.


It is not that I doubt someone else’s research but I feel there are some grey areas. The opportunity to examine a native Indonesia Komodo dragon first hand would be extremely rare. I have no problem dismissing the 'fact' that the animal does not use multiple strains of bacteria in the saliva but rather a poison delivery system but Id like to see more research into this before I just ‘go with the flow’.

My main reason for this is that this same person advocates that iguanas, legless lizards, and monitor lizards and a hundred of the more than 5,000 known lizards he believes are also venomous even though these animals do not have the capacity deliver this “venom”.
Man believed the earth was flat because no one tested or questioned what the so called ‘enlighten’ group were teaching. If you want to believe everything be my guest. I have not dismissed that the Komodo dragon has a delivery system but would like to see more research into this.


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## Snakes Incorporated

slippery42 said:


> Raymond Hoser.............is that a swear word!
> 
> T8at comes to mind



I have never met Raymond Terrence Hoser or had any dealing with the said person but I have a serious problem with venom gland removal (Venomoid). Anyone involved with deforming an animal for his own personal pleasure should be torched.


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## Ssthisto

Snakes Incorporated said:


> My main reason for this is that this same person advocates that iguanas, legless lizards, and monitor lizards and a hundred of the more than 5,000 known lizards he believes are also venomous even though these animals do not have the capacity deliver this “venom”.
> Man believed the earth was flat because no one tested or questioned what the so called ‘enlighten’ group were teaching. If you want to believe everything be my guest. I have not dismissed that the Komodo dragon has a delivery system but would like to see more research into this.


I've seen the dissection photos showing the glands in the lower jaw of various species; that's why I can believe that the animals HAVE remnant venom glands even if they no longer have effective delivery systems.



Snakes Incorporated said:


> I have never met Raymond Terrence Hoser or had any dealing with the said person but I have a serious problem with venom gland removal (Venomoid). Anyone involved with deforming an animal for his own personal pleasure should be torched.


Never owned a castrated dog, then?


----------



## Owzy

A castrated dog is not the same thing is it...

I would think it is the equivalent of taking a dogs teeth out not chopping of the buisness end.


----------



## SiUK

I would never agree with anything Ray Hoser does or says, the man isnt worthy to be called a herpetologist, even if academically he knows his stuff.


----------



## Ssthisto

Owzy said:


> A castrated dog is not the same thing is it...
> 
> I would think it is the equivalent of taking a dogs teeth out not chopping of the buisness end.


In both cases you're removing glands that are inconvenient to you as a human but are naturally part of the animal itself, and that have functions within that animal that may be more far-reaching than the obvious.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think venomoids should be created to be owned by all and sundry (although I do believe they have their place - not as pets for people who want a cobra that can be handled like a corn, but perhaps in educational establishments, zoos and museums with live collections) ... but I think people shrug off the very real _behavioural _and _physical _effects of neutering their pets as "but it's only a little op" because we're USED to surgically altering those animals for our convenience.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

Venomoid in comparison is like amputating a ‘pet’ bird’s wings because the owner due to his or her own incompetence may allow the said animal to escape. There is no reason for a venomoid to be created as this is a cowardly selfish thing to do. Either you are for it or against it. (no middle ground)


----------



## Owzy

For people who love snakes there is little reason to do the op.

You bring up the point of using them to educate in schools etc... 

For those who have not been as gifted in the brains department from the man upstairs are they not going to think it might be ok to pick them up in the wild, even if they are told that is not the case... 

We all kow kids pay more attention with their eyes than with their ears.


----------



## Ssthisto

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Venomoid in comparison is like amputating a ‘pet’ bird’s wings because the owner due to his or her own incompetence may allow the said animal to escape.


No, it really isn't. A bird with amputated wings is unable to *behave* like the species it is. A venomous snake with the venom glands removed still *behaves* and *functions* like the snake it is... save for being able to envenomate with a bite.



> There is no reason for a venomoid to be created as this is a cowardly selfish thing to do. Either you are for it or against it. (no middle ground)


There's no such thing as black and white with no shades of grey.

I don't think anyone should have a venomoid if they're not willing *and able* to handle a fully loaded hot first - and that generally speaking, venomoids are not there to be pets for people who want cuddly-tame venomous snakes that they can play with. However, I do think that there are VERY appropriate places for them.

For example, using a venomoid as a "training" snake for people who want to learn to handle venomous. A venomoid that's handled as though it's fully loaded - pinning, grabbing behind the head, etc... will BEHAVE as though it is fully loaded - they do not know they're missing the payload. Great if you don't want to risk your students while they learn the skills of how to handle the species - particularly if you don't TELL them they're working with a 'void.

I'm in the shades of grey that say "It's ok in certain circumstances, but it doesn't mean I should be able to get a 'void cobra as a pet."


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

Ssthisto said:


> … if you don't want to risk your students while they learn the skills of how to handle the species


I teach/train snake awareness, catch & rescue courses for the novice and experienced and have been for some years. I use Cape Cobra, Puff Adder, Boomslange, Snoued, etc. etc and even a rattler or two
I have never exposed anyone to unnecessary risk because I do it professionally. All the venomous snakes I use are in the same condition as was created. 

Ssthisto it’s the teacher not the student that we should be concerned about.

"SAVE A SNAKE, KILL A VENOMOID LOVER"


----------



## mad martin

Hey Shaun  I see you are real popular here too


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## Snakes Incorporated

mad martin said:


> Hey Shaun  I see you are real popular here too


Howzit boet. Jy I upset everyone sooner or later. Die mense hier dink hulle is slim maar... just keep walking and ignore the monkeys.


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## Owzy

If you are so much more intelligent why bother posting?

Some people here ARE clever!


----------



## mad martin

@ Owsy: Shaun has a habit of rubbing people up the wrong way (sorry swaer, maar dis waar  ), but he has a wealth of knowledge with regards to venomous species of Southern Africa. Take the time to really read what he posted.
Like arguing the venom status of Komodo's. We learn new things by questioning the old rationale's is how we learn. By taking everything at face value is not the right way to go. Brian Fry, whom I have a world of respect for, has made a theory (a theory in science is not a thumbsuck). By questioning it, gives it more validity.


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## SWMorelia

Let me get this right.....
A world renowned, toxicologist is going to post BS up and damage his reputation in his chosen field...... Why??
And Snakes inc.... You are going to prove this out by emailing him and asking if he meant to say venomous.... So what do you think he's going to say ' Yep, your right. It was a typo, ..'
I heard that Kamodo's were venomous years ago, as Dr Fry thought the bacteria theory was a bit tenuous, as the bite victims died too quick for it to be the onset of septicaemia... 
It's taken until now to get hold of a Kamodo to check out the theory...


----------



## mad martin

As I said, I have the world's respect for Dr Bryan Fry.
But just by being a world reknowned whatever, doesn't make you exempt from making mistakes. By saying that, I do believe his theory is correct. But Shaun asking and questioning the findings doesn't make him wrong. Its how all scientists start on a road to answering a question, by questioning an old answer. If we took everything at face value, the world would still be flat.


----------



## Owzy

mad martin said:


> @ Owsy: Shaun has a habit of rubbing people up the wrong way (sorry swaer, maar dis waar  ), but he has a wealth of knowledge with regards to venomous species of Southern Africa. Take the time to really read what he posted.
> Like arguing the venom status of Komodo's. We learn new things by questioning the old rationale's is how we learn. By taking everything at face value is not the right way to go. Brian Fry, whom I have a world of respect for, has made a theory (a theory in science is not a thumbsuck). By questioning it, gives it more validity.


I have no problem *at all *in questioning theories and debate however just because it is a habit & he may know a few things does not make it ok to be rude & obnoxious.


----------



## SWMorelia

mad martin said:


> As I said, I have the world's respect for Dr Bryan Fry.
> But just by being a world reknowned whatever, doesn't make you exempt from making mistakes. By saying that, I do believe his theory is correct. But Shaun asking and questioning the findings doesn't make him wrong. Its how all scientists start on a road to answering a question, by questioning an old answer. If we took everything at face value, the world would still be flat.


I totally agree and the way he should of answered it, in that case, would of been.... I believe it is bacteria.blah blah blah although there has been some mention of venom and glands blah blah blah etc etc....
I think your mate shaun either didn't know about the new findings or forgot about the new findings, and he is now trying to dig himself out of a hole with all this scientific talk about proving out theories.... LOL


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## mad martin

No Shaun is aggressive in his beliefs. Try to accept it, because the knowledge that he has is really worthwhile having around.


----------



## SWMorelia

mad martin said:


> No Shaun is aggressive in his beliefs. Try to accept it, because the knowledge that he has is really worthwhile having around.


We already have lots of aggressive in their belief type people on here, it's not the way forward if you want to be taken seriously...
And *no it isn't, yes it is* type of arguing is tedious... Prove your statements with links, not just keep saying 'no it isn't'.... LOL


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

Firstly SW-morelia I was not rude, obnoxious or aggressive in any of my posts. I merely said that I would prefer more research into this NEW find before I believe and accept this as being a fact. 
Just because someone says something different does not automatically make it true. In saying that any idiot can post information on the web but that does not make it a scientific fact. I can quote The Flat Earth Society but does that then prove the earth as being flat?


----------



## Owzy

.....


----------



## SWMorelia

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Firstly SW-morelia I was not rude, obnoxious or aggressive in any of my posts. I merely said that I would prefer more research into this NEW find before I believe and accept this as being a fact.
> Just because someone says something different does not automatically make it true. In saying that *any idiot *can post information on the web but that does not make it a scientific fact. I can quote The Flat Earth Society but does that then prove the earth as being flat?


I didn't say you were rude or obnoxious, but you are aggressive, aren't you....
I can see what you are trying to say and where you are coming from, unfortunately calling Dr Fry, any idiot, just seems churlish to me....
I'm sure Dr Fry thinks about his posts before he makes them, unlike some other experts that shall remain nameless....:whistling2:
I'm also sure you should throw away the shovel and start to be a bit nicer in your posts...:Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

No, no SW-morelia please stop putting words in my mouth. I never called anyone an idiot especially Bryan. Read my post again.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

By the way SW-morelia as you seem to be the finest judge of character due to your superior knowledge in global social studies. Maybe you can enlighten us on your herpetological experiences to date other than what you have read on the internet that is?


----------



## SWMorelia

Your not aggressive are you..... LOL
Why do I have to prove out my knowledge, when you earlier posted...... Oh never mind, goal post movement I guess...... LOL
Well I come from the pre internet era and only joined forums to make sure no kiddy fiddlers were grooming my son.... I liked them so I stayed....
I started out 30yrs ago and all my knowledge had to come from books... It was the only way back then... Luckily, as for experience..... 30 odd yrs of playing with snakes I guess.....
As for a fine judge of character.... No, I'm not... Though in your case, you are painting a nice graphic pic for us all.... So it's easy.....


----------



## MJ75

Snakes Incorporated

Just out of interest have you ever been lucky enough to have ever examined a real komodo dragon in an attempt to determine if it is or is not venemous yourself?

Best


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

No I am not aggressive my dear SW-morelia but personally don’t care for beating around the ‘bush’ playing childish word games to entertain just anybody if that is what you mean. 

I see you enjoy making your own inaccurate judgments about others and then point your finger to try stir the preverbal pot. So in essence what you are saying is that you have zero practical knowledge on the subject of herpetology and even less physiological training to make any accurate appraisal or assessment about anyone’s character or knowledge of Herpetology?

Truethfully I must admit that your opinion is certainly not as important as you make it out to be considering the facts. Then that answers that then doesn’t it?






MJ75 said:


> Snakes Incorporated
> Just out of interest have you ever been lucky enough to have ever examined a real komodo dragon in an attempt to determine if it is or is not venemous yourself? Best


No I have not and never been to Indonesia either.


----------



## SWMorelia

Snakes Incorporated said:


> No I am not aggressive my dear SW-morelia but personally don’t care for beating around the ‘bush’ playing childish word games to entertain just anybody if that is what you mean.


This isn't a word game, where do you get that idea from....
And I may beg to differ as to whether you appear aggressive...




Snakes Incorporated said:


> I see you enjoy making your own inaccurate judgments about others and then point your finger to try stir the preverbal pot.


This isn't an inaccurate judgement, it's an observation as to how you are presenting yourself... You seem to be stirring the proverbial, I'm just commenting on your statements.... Sorry if some of the questions are too pointed for you.


Snakes Incorporated said:


> So in essence what you are saying is that you have zero practical knowledge on the subject of herpetology and even less physiological training to make any accurate appraisal or assessment about anyone’s character or knowledge of Herpetology?


I didn't realise that we were marking our knowledge (when you originally asked my experience)... I would guess I have zero knowledge, like I wouldn't learn anything in 30 odd years now would I???
And I haven't made any appraisals of your knowledge, anywhere in any of my posts..... I just think you don't know how to back peddle, graciously.... LOL



Snakes Incorporated said:


> *Truthfully* I must admit that your opinion is certainly not as important as you make it out to be considering the facts. Then that answers that then doesn’t it?


I didn't make out that my opinion counted.... I just pointed out a leader in his field* did *have an opinion worth considering....
And as for knowledge..... I spelled truthfully properly, for you,,,, see I have some uses... LOL





[/QUOTE]


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

Enough SW-morelia. I am seriously not interested in any of your handclapped opinions or worthless comments. Just because I respectfully question a finding and don’t put my faith into everything posted on the web you call me


SW-morelia said:


> … churlish....


 spelt childish. There I’ve corrected your spelling. (Happy?)



SW-morelia said:


> … And I may beg to differ as to whether you appear aggressive.......


As I have said I don’t care what you think because you appear to be conceited with your self opinionated vanity. In future stick to the thread and avoid getting personal. 

If you want to continue making immature character references at or about me do it via PM as this thread is not about me or what you think.


----------



## MJ75

Snakes Incorporated said:


> you call me
> spelt childish. There I’ve corrected your spelling. (Happy?)


Thats a cracking own goal there Snakes Incorporated! May I suggest you read a dictionary. You look a little silly with that remark.


----------



## DavidR

> I am not disputing an opinion because this is what it is. If you or anyone else wants to believe that toxic saliva is venom then any human or animal that’s bite causes infection is venomous.
> 
> I disagree with one or two observations by Bryan Grieg Fry and have no problem saying that this particular opinion has no logic no matter what anyone says. Fry recons that all species of snake are venomous due to the potential infection after a bite.
> 
> My opinion is that this theory has no basic scientific proof and in short is BULL because my corn snake is non-venomous no matter what anyone says.


Firstly, Fry's research shows that venom is basal to snakes, all snakes descended from a venomous ancestor. Various groups have undergone a secondary loss of venom (e.g. corn snakes). He does not state that venomous - dangerous, infact he clearly points out that this is often the case.

Scientific progress relies upon questioning long held beliefs with hypothesis testing. If you read Bryan Fry's Toxicofera venom evolution and Komodo papers (available free of charge from his website) then you will see a wealth of evidence has been provided for his assertion that Komodo Dragons produce venom and actively use it in hunting. Not only can the venom glands (large!) be clearly seen on MRI scans, the isolation of various toxins proves beyond reasonable doubt that Komodo dragons produce (complex) venom. It is essential for research and evidence to be questioned, hence the peer review system. Merely saying that you do not believe years of research, having apparently not even read the papers is of no scientific value.

David.


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## MJ75

DavidR said:


> Merely saying that you do not believe years of research, having apparently not even read the papers is of no scientific value.
> 
> David.


I fully agree. It appears to me that Snakes Incorporated was unaware of Fry's work unlike many other forum members. And it looks to me that since being pointed in the direction of Fry's work he's desperately trying to save face. Still it's amusing to an extent. Though as he clearly doesn't have a great understanding of the english language he may struggle with Fry's papers. Which is a shame. 

Forum wannabees eh....... :whistling2:


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

David you believe what you want to believe and go your way. Bryan believes that snakes evolved from toxic to non-toxic etc. He believes that snakes like the common corn snakes are venomous. If you wish to believe this to be a fact than be my guest. 
I personally don’t believe in the theory of evolution but believe that these animals were created the way they are and don’t care if you or your mates don’t believe what I believe. 


MJ75 if you have nothing intellectual to offer shut it because you are becoming increasingly annoying.


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## HalcyonInverts

If you read the papers on this subject properly, it never states that the bioactive compounds present in traditional non-venomous snakes oral secretions are ACTIVE. there is just protiens present that are simlilar shape and wieght to known venom components. this means that the compounds were already there (from a common ancestor) as a scaffold to modify into bioactive substances. this accounts for things like Elaphe having similar oral secretions to elapids etc without the ACTIVE properties to thier secretions.

The scaffold has always been there. just only certain groups have twisted it into a dangerous weapon.


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## MJ75

Snakes Incorporated said:


> MJ75 if you have nothing intellectual to offer shut it because you are becoming increasingly annoying.


Do you mean I'm becoming churlish? :lol2:

Yes it's good to challenge other people’s thoughts and ideas. I do it on this very forum regularly. Though in all honesty it's very difficult to take you seriously. By your own admission you've never examined a komodo dragon yourself. You were completely unaware of Fry’s paper until others made you aware of it, then you repeatedly bore the backside off others by stating that one persons theory should not be taken as gospel. Though, you offer nothing of any value to suggest that Fry's work is incorrect other than your opinion claiming he may have got it wrong.

I'd consider only commenting further if you have something intellectual to say. If you don't have the intellect and language skills to participate in a debate productively, I'd bow out now. You don't want to be seen as another forum monkey I'm sure... Or even both childish and churlish eh?

Best
 MJ


----------



## SWMorelia

Churlish....... Thats a new word you've picked up today, innit..... LOL


HalcyonInverts said:


> If you read the papers on this subject properly, it never states that the bioactive compounds present in traditional non-venomous snakes oral secretions are ACTIVE. there is just protiens present that are simlilar shape and wieght to known venom components. this means that the compounds were already there (from a common ancestor) as a scaffold to modify into bioactive substances. this accounts for things like Elaphe having similar oral secretions to elapids etc without the ACTIVE properties to thier secretions.
> 
> The scaffold has always been there. just only certain groups have twisted it into a dangerous weapon.


Whew... Lucky an edumacated herper come along to speak to our South African* English* teacher.... LOL


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

HalcyonInverts said:


> If you read the papers ....


Do you believe that corn snakes are venomous? Yes or no

If yes explain were and how the mechanism works that delivers the toxic 'payload'


----------



## SNAKEWISPERA

Your so funny snakes Incorporated.


----------



## HalcyonInverts

no of course they are not venomous. to argue so would be retarded. That dosnt mean that thier oral secretions dont contain similar protiens to known venom protiens. it just means that the protiens in cornsnake oral secretions are INACTIVE. Ie. of no use in killing prey. But they are there all the same as thier function is still useful to the snake. be it antibacterial or pre-digestion. It is from these ancestral actions that venom compunds modified...


----------



## HalcyonInverts

if your struggling to grasp that concept id suggest you read some scientific literature on venom evolution and venom delivery systems origins... i can reccomend some if youd like...


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

SW-morelia said:


> Whew... Lucky an edumacated herper come along to speak to our South African* English* teacher.... LOL


O so you can correct my (American) spelling of truth but when I correct your churlish (word??) I'm an English teacher. Dang you are pathetic mate.


----------



## Ssthisto

I believe that corn snakes may have remnant mechanisms / secretions that are what is LEFT of the venom delivery system in an order that no longer requires venom to be effective at their predatory lifestyle.

If you analysed corn snake saliva you might well find certain venom compounds or components - ingredients that just don't have the OTHER ingredients necessary to make the saliva/secretions truly venomous. I am sure I recall reading a few bits of research stating that they've discovered something like this in corn saliva (hence the sometimes-irritant nature of corn/rat snake bites causing swelling in some individuals).
If you analysed corn snake cranial anatomy you might well find remnant glands that produce those salivary compounds (or you might not, depending on what venom adaptations were lost first).
If you analysed corn snake tooth structure, you might find signs of grooves in the teeth to guide saliva along them (or you might not, depending on what venom adaptations were lost first). 

Just because they had venomous ancestors doesn't mean they're venomous NOW... just as my having brown-eyed ancestors doesn't automatically mean I HAVE to have brown eyes.


----------



## Ssthisto

Snakes Incorporated said:


> O so you can correct my (American) spelling of truth but when I correct your churlish (word??) I'm an English teacher. Dang you are pathetic mate.


The word "Churlish" is actually a word: 

Churlish Definition | Definition of Churlish at Dictionary.com

It's an adjective, and means "to be boorish or rude, to be difficult to work with."


----------



## HalcyonInverts

Ssthisto said:


> I believe that corn snakes may have remnant mechanisms / secretions that are what is LEFT of the venom delivery system in an order that no longer requires venom to be effective at their predatory lifestyle.
> 
> If you analysed corn snake saliva you might well find certain venom compounds or components - ingredients that just don't have the OTHER ingredients necessary to make the saliva/secretions truly venomous. I am sure I recall reading a few bits of research stating that they've discovered something like this in corn saliva (hence the sometimes-irritant nature of corn/rat snake bites causing swelling in some individuals).
> If you analysed corn snake cranial anatomy you might well find remnant glands that produce those salivary compounds (or you might not, depending on what venom adaptations were lost first).
> If you analysed corn snake tooth structure, you might find signs of grooves in the teeth to guide saliva along them (or you might not, depending on what venom adaptations were lost first).
> 
> Just because they had venomous ancestors doesn't mean they're venomous NOW... just as my having brown-eyed ancestors doesn't automatically mean I HAVE to have brown eyes.


 
Exactly! its all just either shattered remnants of a past venom system, or the pre-existing scaffold that venomous groups built upon to make thier secretions. Any protienaceous compound in a non-venomous snakes oral secretions must still have a function otherwise it wud be an evolutionary disadvantage to waste time producing it. it would however be wrong to state that they ARE venomous as the primary action of thier oral secretion is not to kill prey


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

HalcyonInverts said:


> if your struggling to grasp that concept id suggest you read some scientific literature on venom evolution and venom delivery systems origins... i can reccomend some if youd like...


No sorry maybe you are unaware but venom did not evolve from nothing but was created with the animal pertaining to the specific species in question.
So if the said animal does not have a venom delivery system or a venom reserve the animal is non venomous. This is a fact no matter how you want to twist and suggest otherwise. Yes, No?


----------



## MJ75

Snakes Incorporated said:


> O so you can correct my (American) spelling of truth but when I correct your churlish (word??) I'm an English teacher. Dang you are pathetic mate.


You missed one of SW's real spelling mistakes and made more than one yourself. We won't mention your numerous grammatical errors though.  Perhaps you need to read a little more for more than one reason eh?

Regards


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

Ssthisto said:


> The word "Churlish" is actually a word:


Not in my English but so-what mate? get over it.


----------



## MJ75

Ssthisto said:


> The word "Churlish" is actually a word:
> 
> Churlish Definition | Definition of Churlish at Dictionary.com
> 
> It's an adjective, and means "to be boorish or rude, to be difficult to work with."


 

YouTube - Never Met A Nice South African - Spitting Image


----------



## HalcyonInverts

Snakes Incorporated said:


> No sorry maybe you are unaware but venom did not evolve from nothing but was created with the animal pertaining to the specific species in question.
> So if the said animal does not have a venom delivery system or a venom reserve the animal is non venomous. This is a fact no matter how you want to twist and suggest otherwise. Yes, No?


OMG its easy to tell you dont encourage proper scientific thinking...

If a snake is NON-VENOMOUS it has oral secretions that do not aid in killing prey... yes???

However... this same snake can still have protiens in its saliva that are ancestral and similar to the protiens of venomous snakes, but which are not for killing prey. it is from THESE protiens that snake venom evolved. Wether or not they have a gland or not or a VDS or not is of no consequence as the two different glands from the venomous groups are SEPERATLY derived. As in venom evolved more than once from an ancestral condition found in most reptiles including komodoes...


----------



## SWMorelia

HalcyonInverts said:


> Exactly! its all just either shattered remnants of a past venom system, or the pre-existing scaffold that venomous groups built upon to make thier secretions. Any protienaceous compound in a non-venomous snakes oral secretions must still have a function otherwise it wud be an evolutionary disadvantage to waste time producing it. it would however be wrong to state that they ARE venomous as the primary action of thier oral secretion is not to kill prey


Or, if you are a creationist, (like Snakes inc. is, I think) a red herring.....
I believe that the creationist theory is valid, and things were created *at an age*, to throw a red herring into the mix and give evolutionists a lever.... Where as we all know an omnipotent being needs total dedication and *FAITH.
*I hate to agree with him, but I like my theory, though I cannot get a Christ to MRI scan either to prove it out...... Maybe I'll email him......


----------



## Ssthisto

Snakes Incorporated said:


> No sorry maybe you are unaware but venom did not evolve from nothing but was created with the animal pertaining to the specific species in question.


So I have green eyes instead of brown (like my dad's) because I was *created* to have green eyes? I have green eyes instead of blue (like my maternal grandmother's) because I was *created* to have green eyes?

Funny, I always thought I had green eyes because I inherited the traits to HAVE green eyes from my ancestors - even if they themselves did not/do not show those traits.



> So if the said animal does not have a venom delivery system or a venom reserve the animal is non venomous. This is a fact no matter how you want to twist and suggest otherwise. Yes, No?


Yes, the animal you've described is non-venomous.

That doesn't mean its great great great (to the umpteenth power) grandparents were non-venomous... which is what we're getting at. Corn snakes, according to the latest research, appear to have had venomous great-great-great-twelvty-times-great grandparents.


----------



## SWMorelia

SNAKES INC. I've taken your lead and done some research.....
TRUETHFULLY is not the American spelling, it's total BS.....
So judging by your spin on things, we'll take it as read that you believe it's your way or the highway....
Well I can see that your explanation for being ill informed in English language is BS, so should I take anything else you say as something other than BS.
EDIT...... I did use the interweb, so it may be wrong..... LOL


----------



## DavidR

> He believes that snakes like the common corn snakes are venomous. If you wish to believe this to be a fact than be my guest.


Fry's research shows that Cornsnakes (and all members of the genus' _Pantherophis_, _Lampropeltis_ and _Pituophis_) should not be considered venomous, they form a clade that has lost the ability to produce venom. This makes perfect sense from an evolutionary perspective because venom is so metabolically expensive to produce, if its not being used to subdue prey then it is incredibly wasteful. Another nice example of secondary loss of venom can be seen in the sea snake _Aipyusurus eydouxii_, which feeds upon non motile fish eggs, and thus does not require venom. Obviously if you do not believe in evolution then Fry's work isn't going to be particularly palatable, as it all has an evolutionary basis. Even if you cannot accept the mechanisms suggested for the findings, it cannot be denied that venom proteins have been extracted from Komodo dragons. In the words of Dobzhansky "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution". 

David.


----------



## HalcyonInverts

DavidR said:


> Fry's research shows that Cornsnakes (and all members of the genus' _Pantherophis_, _Lampropeltis_ and _Pituophis_) should not be considered venomous, they form a clade that has lost the ability to produce venom. This makes perfect sense from an evolutionary perspective because venom is so metabolically expensive to produce, if its not being used to subdue prey then it is incredibly wasteful. Another nice example of secondary loss of venom can be seen in the sea snake _Aipyusurus eydouxii_, which feeds upon non motile fish eggs, and thus does not require venom. Obviously if you do not believe in evolution then Fry's work isn't going to be particularly palatable, as it all has an evolutionary basis. Even if you cannot accept the mechanisms suggested for the findings, it cannot be denied that venom proteins have been extracted from Komodo dragons. In the words of Dobzhansky "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution".
> 
> David.


Well put! : victory:


----------



## HABU

frankenfurter agrees....:lol2:


----------



## leecb0

Snakes Incorporated said:


> I personally don’t believe in the theory of evolution but believe that these animals were created the way they are and don’t care if you or your mates don’t believe what I believe.


 
now Charles Darwin is wrong pmsl
very entertaining though
i dont normally get involved with all the keybourd warriors but had to say something
carry on


----------



## Ssthisto

SW-morelia said:


> TRUETHFULLY is not the American spelling, it's total BS.....
> EDIT...... I did use the interweb, so it may be wrong..... LOL


I'm American.

I've ALWAYS spelled it "Truthfully".


----------



## stuartdouglas

DavidR said:


> *Fry's research* shows that Cornsnakes (and all members of the genus' _Pantherophis_, _Lampropeltis_ and _Pituophis_) should not be considered venomous, they form a clade that has lost the ability to produce venom. This makes perfect sense from an evolutionary perspective because venom is so metabolically expensive to produce, if its not being used to subdue prey then it is incredibly wasteful. Another nice example of secondary loss of venom can be seen in the sea snake _Aipyusurus eydouxii_, which feeds upon non motile fish eggs, and thus does not require venom. Obviously if you do not believe in evolution then Fry's work isn't going to be particularly palatable, as it all has an evolutionary basis. Even if you cannot accept the mechanisms suggested for the findings, it cannot be denied that venom proteins have been extracted from Komodo dragons. In the words of Dobzhansky "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution".
> 
> David.


The bold section will immediately elicit a complete shutdown in listening skills and reasoning ability in Snakesinc'. Mr Snakes doesn't believe in Dr Fry any more than I believe in the Easter Bunny. If Bryan says it, then Snakes will take a diametrically opposite stance just out of principle. just my 2p worth................but hey, who the f**k am I?


----------



## Owzy

Not sure why the comp is posting things twice


----------



## Owzy

This is funny, at first I took him half seriously but now... :lol2:

Mad Martin, you really expect us to 'accept' this? (I am still waiting for his wealth of experience and knowledge to shine) He won't even accept some of the foundations of science... 

I don't poke fun at religion or any of the beliefs that come with it but on the other hand it's hard to be taken seriously in a scientific (or what at one point was) disscusion if you don't think things evolve.


----------



## SWMorelia

Ssthisto said:


> *I'm American.*
> 
> I've ALWAYS spelled it "Truthfully".


I know your American....... Thats why I put in the quick edit...
I figured I may be wrong as you hadn't picked up on the spin Snakes inc was trying..... LOL


----------



## MJ75

Owzy said:


> This is funny, at first I took him half seriously but now... :lol2:
> 
> Mad Martin, you really expect us to 'accept' this? (I am still waiting for his wealth of experience and knowledge to shine) He won't even accept some of the foundations of science...
> 
> I don't poke fun at religion or any of the beliefs that come with it but on the other hand it's hard to be taken seriously in a scientific (or what at one point was) disscusion if you don't think things evolve.


I completely agree. Snakes INC has lost any credibility he may have had with his postings on this thread. Can anyone else see the connection between the "I know best, so I'm dismissive of any intellectual debate" mentality and the "I don't believe in evolution opinion"? He's not alone in this world. Several million others have their blinkers fitted too.

It’s another case of a forum member’s ego stifling what could have been a good and interesting debate.


----------



## mad martin

What is happening here is exactly why I do not like computers.
Shaun is actually a very nice guy, that even gave me carrots over the way I work with snakes. He has a wealth of knowledge, and does sometimes come across as a bit "in your face".
Guys, take it with a pinch of salt. 
Shaun has 30 years experience, so there is a lot of info in that offensive brain 

Try guys, please. And Shaun, behave!!!!!!!!


----------



## Owzy

mad martin said:


> What is happening here is exactly why I do not like computers.
> Shaun is actually a very nice guy, that even gave me carrots over the way I work with snakes. He has a wealth of knowledge, and does sometimes come across as a bit "in your face".
> Guys, take it with a pinch of salt.
> Shaun has 30 years experience, so there is a lot of info in that offensive brain
> 
> Try guys, please. And Shaun, behave!!!!!!!!


A bit in your face is fine... hey I come across as a right douche sometimes! But then there is insulting people in another language... I mean that is the behaviour of a school child!


----------



## mad martin

These are some of the "techniques" I was talking about


----------



## mad martin

Owzy, I get that.
There is one plus though. Everybody getting angry at least shows they are passionate about herps


----------



## SWMorelia

mad martin said:


> What is happening here is exactly why I do not like computers.
> Shaun is actually a very nice guy, that even gave me carrots over the way I work with snakes. He has a wealth of knowledge, and does sometimes come across as a bit "in your face".
> Guys, take it with a pinch of salt.
> Shaun has 30 years experience, so there is a lot of info in that offensive brain
> 
> Try guys, please. And Shaun, behave!!!!!!!!


I believe you Martin, unfortunately we are on forums so shaun needs to learn netiquette....
He has the chance to read his posts before sending them and it costs nothing to be nice to people.....
Calling us all children and this is a place full of kids doesn't bode well with me, no matter how much experience a person has...
And he never comes up with his experience, only that we have to believe everything he says, blindly and without question..... Yet as he is an expert, he can question everything.... Smacks of double standards to me.....


----------



## Owzy

mad martin said:


> These are some of the "techniques" I was talking about
> 
> image


lol yeah nice!


----------



## SWMorelia

mad martin said:


> These are some of the "techniques" I was talking about
> 
> image


What techniques would these be.....?
Keeping still springs to mind... LOL


----------



## mad martin

ha ha ha ha yeah that helps


----------



## mad martin

But I think it was the Snouted Cobra that freaked Shaun out a little


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

Thanks Martin much appreciated. I only saw what happened to Nattie in Saturday’s paper. Dang that was the species I joked about that he should be especially wary of.



mad martin said:


> But I think it was the Snouted Cobra that freaked Shaun out a little


Dang right you are boet


Look SW-morelia you are a fine one to talk. You turned what ever I say into a personal insult and then call me names. I don’t have to agree with what you or your mates think or say so leave it there. 
This thread is about ‘How Dangerous???’ and not about you or me.


----------



## SWMorelia

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Look SW-morelia you are a fine one to talk. You turned what ever I say into a personal insult and then call me names. I don’t have to agree with what you or your mates think or say so leave it there.
> This thread is about ‘How Dangerous???’ and not about you or me.


I started by making observations, you started the personal attacks.... I just picked up on your approach and it seems I am better at it than you....
I personally have nothing against you as a person, I'm just pointing out where you are letting yourself down with your arguments...
You need to remember that everything you say in posts are there for ever, for us all to read back through and bisect word for word....


----------



## mad martin

Yeah, I went to see Natie yesterday. His leg looks hideous


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

SW-morelia said:


> .... I just picked up on your approach and it seems I am better at it than you.....


Are you finished because I really don’t care how much you think of yourself? Leave it be and move on.

Martin I caught a puff yesterday in a kitchen of all places. These guys are pleasant on the eyes but never have I underestimate their ability with speed. One glips is all it takes to spoil a day and some.


----------



## mad martin

My first bite was from a Puff Adder.
I will still get strapped by snakes, but never ever again by a puff adder.
Natie just wasn't paying attention.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

When I do talks and snake awareness training this is the guy I impress on everyone that deserves unparallel respect. Time is tissue says it all.
The Cape Cobra allows me to be a good-looking corps rather than what the puff offers.


----------



## mad martin

I would rather get bit on the forehead by a Black Mamba than on the toe by a Puff Adder. The best way I can describe the feeling: its like taking red hot coals and putting them under the skin.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

mad martin said:


> …its like taking red hot coals and putting them under the skin.


No comparison but my Capie bite was like someone injected molten lead under my skin. I thought that neurotoxin envenimation would be relatively painless. I can only imagine the intensity of cytotoxin especially from a puff.:gasp:


----------



## mad martin

A puff adder bite is the closest a man will get to giving birth.
I received 4 morphine injections and passed out from pain still.

I received two operations, two skin grafts, two weeks in ICU and 6 months physio.

My snouty bite in December, two nights on a ventilator and home for a beer. Do the maths


----------



## Owzy

mad martin said:


> A puff adder bite is the closest a man will get to giving birth.
> I received 4 morphine injections and passed out from pain still.
> 
> I received two operations, two skin grafts, two weeks in ICU and 6 months physio.
> 
> My snouty bite in December, two nights on a ventilator and home for a beer. Do the maths


They worse than a Gabbon? I have read a few accounts of horrible bites from them.


----------



## mad martin

Gabby will kill you faster, which saves you going through that pain.
Hypovolemic shock fom a gabby bite happens fast. A mate of mine got bit, and went into shock within 15 minutes.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

I friend of mine got zapped by both and told me that neither experiences was something he would want to relive but also mentioned that the Gaboon was worse regards pain.


----------



## mad martin

Well in general, pain or not, all snakebites suck


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

mad martin said:


> Well in general, pain or not, all snakebites suck


I am afraid that I will have to concur. LoL

Was asked to do some snake training in the Cyderberg next weekend. Red adder and Black spitters are always on the “menu”.
I get paid to train a timber wolf not to take on snakes. Dang animal put me in hospital last year.


----------



## gregjones

I know I'm coming into this thread late but I find you to be very rude, Snakes Incorporated.

Firstly, posting insults about people's mothers in your own language so that they do not know what you're saying is very cowardly and down right rude. You're posting on an English forum, so please talk in English.

Secondly, it appears to me that you're questioning the discovery of venom in Komodo Dragons just to appear "clever". Take the following paragraph...



> Magnetic resonance imaging scans have shown, however, that Komodos have glands in their mouths that produce venom similar to that of many snakes.


This is hard _evidence _that they are in fact venomous. There is no point disputing a fact like this just because you want to see for your own eyes. Let's say you're given the opportunity to do the research for yourself, I highly doubt you're going to be able to carry out the research better/more accurately than someone who has devoted a big part of their lives to becoming a Doctor in their field.

Also, regarding your comment about not believing someone just because they're a Doctor or Professor...a Doctor becomes a Professor after having published many research papers (which have to be reviewed by several peers before being published) and after being recommended/elected by their peers also.

(Unless you're American of course, they seem to just use Doctor and Professor interchangeably).

So bearing that in mind, if I'm going to believe and trust someone to publish accurate research, I'm going to trust a Professor.

The same applies with any academicly published research - even if you're a doctor it still has to have a peer review before it's published so one Doctor can't simply just "make up" research and publish it to make them look good.

Sorry if any of these points have been covered in the previous pages! Haven't got time to read all 15 pages!


----------



## MJ75

You've missed the point. The intelligent posters can see through Snakies BS. He's been made to look a fool and it's all for show. It's one big face saving exercise. 

No one really takes him seriously. Do they???


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

grantjames said:


> posting insults about people's mothers in your own language so that they do not know what you're saying is very cowardly and down right rude.


I am Scottish descent South African born so Afrikaans is not my language. If you were able to understand the said language you would see that I did not insult anyone’s family but requested that certain people leave me the flip alone. I have an opinion and see no reason or need to change it because of self important people such as you. 
This venomous research is based on one mans opinion and study which I feel may need a little more research. I am not contradicting anything and have absolutely no problem if the said research is as it has been presented. 

If a doctor or professor publishes that the moon is made of cheese and has relevant theoretically accurate research and findings to prove this as a reality I would also wait for further opinions before just accepting that the moon was a block of cheese.

I hope this sum’s up the 15 odd pages previous and I also hope I don’t have to explain this again. 

MJ75 I am tempted to notice you but don't have anymore time to waste.


----------



## gregjones

Snakes Incorporated said:


> If you were able to understand the said language you would see that I did not insult anyone’s family but requested that certain people leave me the flip alone.


I don't understand the language. You said "jou moer blizem". I found out that "jou moer" means "your mother" and I couldn't find out what blizem meant. So you either called him a mother f**ker or insulted his mother, which is uncalled for.

You've also said stuff to someone else who speaks the same language. What's the point in that? If it's not something everyone on here can read then there's no point in it - it's not contributing to the discussion. Use email or the private messaging function to do that. As I've said, posting something in another language that you know for a fact other people wont be able to read is just rude.



Snakes Incorporated said:


> If a doctor or professor publishes that the moon is made of cheese and has relevant theoretically accurate research and findings to prove this as a reality I would also wait for further opinions before just accepting that the moon was a block of cheese.


They have PROVEN with EVIDENCE that the Komodo Dragon is venemous. It's not an "opinion". If NASA returned from the moon, with a lump of cheese in their hands, yes, I'd believe that the moon was made of cheese! I wouldn't even question their findings because respected academics don't just make stuff up!


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

Is this a grudge about a language know?



grantjames said:


> I don't understand the language…


As you can see your translation is weak so let me assist you. Jou = you, Moer = not translatable but would mean Nutt directly translated. Ma = mother. Did you see the word ma any where? If not your apology would be appreciated.

Blikzem is a word also not translatable but was not used against you but was used as an expression of my annoyance. Blikzem (Dang) I’m annoyed at explaining something this simple to the closeded mind who cant think for themselves.



grantjames said:


> What's the point in that? If it's not something everyone on here can read then there's no point in it


You read it so what is your point? Look how many were able to translate it? There was no secret. If you did not understand something why not ask like you are doing know. You did not ask then because it was your pride so you impressed on me that nothing I said would convince you that I have my own opinion. 



grantjames said:


> … it's not contributing to the discussion.


O`so all these armchair specialists can insult me with their rude utterances and innuendoes and this is contributing to a discussion?????? Get real boet. (Boet=brother. a word of affection used among friends)



grantjames said:


> If NASA returned from the moon, with a lump of cheese…


You are missing the point. Because someone’s finding says that a piece of rock is 20 billion years old does not make it a scientific fact. This after another independent science lab calculates this same rock to 8 thousand years old. 


grantjames said:


> They have PROVEN with EVIDENCE that the Komodo Dragon is venemous.


This is one persons research and not 'they'. I am no going to entertain explaining this again because if you are unwilling to allow freedom of thought or opinion there is no point. 
Boet pls just leave it and lets move on O.K: victory:
If another study confirms all this I will gladdy accept it but till then I will keep my opinions to my self. (If that’s O.K with you that is?)


----------



## gregjones

Fun topic. I'm bored of it now though. Thanks for keeping me amused!


----------



## SWMorelia

So I take it Dr Fry hasn't answered your personal E-mail then.....


----------



## Ssthisto

Snakes Incorporated said:


> You read it so what is your point? Look how many were able to translate it?


Simple answer, though, is that if you're having a conversation with a lot of people - and that's what a forum is, a conversation where anyone can join in - and that conversation is being held in one specific language, it is somewhat rude to suddenly lapse into another language. 



> You are missing the point. Because someone’s finding says that a piece of rock is 20 billion years old does not make it a scientific fact. This after another independent science lab calculates this same rock to 8 thousand years old.


Sure it does, if the latter "science" lab has an agenda outside the normal realms of science... and the former is actually looking at the chemical composition of the rock.

And that's the thing. Science has *shown *that komodos have venom glands (and that many other lizards and snakes have remnant venom glands or remnant traces of their venomous ancestors). I might want to believe that Komodo dragons are secondarily fireless, flightless dragons of the mythological variety... but it doesn't make it true, no matter how I try to explain it in pseudoscientific terms. 

The simple fact is that Komodos are venomous lizards, wondrous in their own way.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

O.K Ssthisto and SW-morelia both of you have been agitating about something. Maybe its that bug up you're ass so you must be looking for something. 
What is it that you want?


----------



## Ssthisto

One truly hopes there is no bug up my bum. I really don't like parasites, it's one of the things I have an irrational horror of.

However, I must admit I don't know how one can participate in a discussion of, say, the evolutionary origins of venom in modern reptilia (which is what "Komodos are venomous" boils down to) ... when one has decided to disregard the vast amount of scientific evidence for the "E Word", for whatever reason - and to try to discount any evidence presented BECAUSE of that.

That's rather like me trying to participate in a discussion about the positive benefits of pregnancy and childbirth for the environment when I am not only voluntarily sterile, childfree but also believing in negative population growth. 

In both cases, sure, it makes for an interesting *argument* (because you KNOW someone on one side or the other or both is going to go too far and start insulting someone else) but it doesn't make for particularly rational or productive debate. 

Would it make you feel better if we said "Yes, all these species have been shown to be venomous or have certain venom-like compounds in their saliva or venom-producing structures by modern scientific analysis, and (insert deity or means of choice) meant to do it like that" ?

Oh yeah. Back to the original topic.

How dangerous are venomous snakes? Suppose it depends entirely on the species. I've been within striking range of wild rattlesnakes. One was neatly coiled, sleeping, out in the middle of nowhere, and we were able to approach it quite closely (my aunt actually thought it was dead and was going to pick it up until wiser heads prevailed) - it did not seem overly bothered that we were there when it woke up - no rattle, no threat, just stayed still with the occasional tongueflick. On the same trip, my dad nearly put his hand onto a rattler on a rock when he was scrambling up a canyon; that rattler warned him off (and he nearly stepped on two he didn't see on the way up as he jumped backwards back down). In all cases the animals were not concealed in underbrush - they were basking out in the open, but sand-coloured snake against sandy hardpan isn't the easiest thing to see.

In my experience, the bigger risk would be stumbling onto an animal you didn't know was there - like the one I stepped on (hiding under brush that I was walking through). An escaped rattler would be likely to hide somewhere out of the way, but if you approached it without knowing it was there, you run the risk of stepping too close or putting your hand on it, and getting hit for your trouble. 

So, assuming I had a DWAL and assuming I chose to keep rattlers (I wouldn't - I love them, but I don't think I have anything like the reaction I need just to manage them appropriately WITHOUT trying to handle one, let alone if I DID need to handle one) and one escaped its cage, I would want to ensure that my venomous room was designed in such a way that an escaped snake would be forced to sit out in the open so that I don't have to go searching little nooks and crannies for it. I might to that end create an "ideal hiding place" that one could almost guarantee a loose snake in the room would gravitate to, but that is easy to remove said snake from.


----------



## SWMorelia

You're right, I have a bug up my ass, a South African one....
I find it laughable that a scientific brain like yours would want to hang out in a kindergarten full of kids that believe everything that proven science tells us.... How frustrating it must be for you to have to argue your points with dumb kids, and not listen to you.....
Had your personal E-mail yet Shaun, explaining it to you?


----------



## Rikki

There's no point trying to debate with a creationist on findings of an evolutionary nature. It's obvious snakes inc.'s problem does not lie with Dr. Fry's research methods, but with the implications these results have on his (somewhat flawed) beliefs


----------



## HalcyonInverts

Rikki said:


> There's no point trying to debate with a creationist on findings of an evolutionary nature. It's obvious snakes inc.'s problem does not lie with Dr. Fry's research methods, but with the implications these results have on his (somewhat flawed) beliefs


 
Hang on, its one thing to argue about science, but dont be ragging on the guys religion... thats not what this is about


----------



## Owzy

HalcyonInverts said:


> Hang on, its one thing to argue about science, but dont be ragging on the guys religion... thats not what this is about


He can give it so he can take it, I am sure his feelings are not hurt.


----------



## pythondave82

:lol2::lol2::lol2: you have to laugh on this forum:lol2::lol2::lol2:


----------



## HalcyonInverts

yeah yeah i know his feeling probably arnt hurt, but still, other peoples might be, after all this is public. I just think a good science debate dosnt need to stoop to low blows at peoples religion.

Science has been repressed by religion for 500 years, we dont need to stoop to thier level to get back at it. Let the facts and theories do the talking.


----------



## Owzy

HalcyonInverts said:


> yeah yeah i know his feeling probably arnt hurt, but still, other peoples might be, after all this is public. I just think a good science debate dosnt need to stoop to low blows at peoples religion.
> 
> Science has been repressed by religion for 500 years, we dont need to stoop to thier level to get back at it. Let the facts and theories do the talking.


I think facts, theories and especially levels became lost in this thread a while back.


----------



## HalcyonInverts

Owzy said:


> I think facts, theories and especially levels became lost in this thread a while back.


Perhaps... lol

Im not defending Snakes Inc. Far from it...

I dont want to sound like a d*** but I just dont like people criticising others religions. We all have views and beliefs and its not right to mock them. Thats all im gonna say on the matter

At the end of the day, the science always wins


----------



## SWMorelia

Rikki said:


> There's no point trying to debate with a creationist on findings of an evolutionary nature. It's obvious snakes inc.'s problem does not lie with Dr. Fry's research methods, but with the implications these results have on his (somewhat flawed) beliefs


God made two venomous lizards, so why couldn't he of made more......
There you go creationist theory taken care of.....



Owzy said:


> I think facts, theories and especially levels became lost in this thread a while back.


:Na_Na_Na_Na::whistling2::lol2:


----------



## MJ75

For anyone with a passing interest in komodo's you may want to watch "Life" on BBC1 on monday at 9pm. You'll hear David Attenborough say...

"They strip the buffalo's body to the bone in just 4 hours. The Komodo dragon is the biggest venemous animal on the planet".

Personally I'm looking forward to the programme...


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

Snakes Incorporated said:


> O.K Ssthisto and SW-morelia both of you have been agitating about something. .....
> What is it that you want?


The question still stands unanswered. Is there something you want from me? 

SW-morelia you seem to have a problem with everything so try keep it simple O.K.

So lets hear it.:notworthy:


----------



## slippery42

This is now very boring!


----------



## MJ75

MJ75 said:


> For anyone with a passing interest in komodo's you may want to watch "Life" on BBC1 on monday at 9pm. You'll hear David Attenborough say...
> 
> "They strip the buffalo's body to the bone in just 4 hours. The Komodo dragon is the biggest venemous animal on the planet".
> 
> Personally I'm looking forward to the programme...


Will anyone be watching this tonight?


----------



## Psychotiic

BigA said:


> Well if I got bitten by a venomous snake I would be crapping my pants.
> Good job I dont keep them. I would keep an alligator or some thing like a komodo dragon, but never something that's bite is designed to kill.
> I hope this helps.
> :lol2::lol2::lol2:


Komodo dragon? their bite is designed to kill, they harvest bacteria in there mouth and once it reaches your bloodstream your blood thickens so it can't travel around your body, causing several clots and then you die  a slow and painful death.

also you wouldn't be able to get a komodo dragon as there an endangerd species and can only be found on certain islands in indoneisa


----------



## Psychotiic

MJ75 said:


> For anyone with a passing interest in komodo's you may want to watch "Life" on BBC1 on monday at 9pm. You'll hear David Attenborough say...
> 
> "They strip the buffalo's body to the bone in just 4 hours. The Komodo dragon is the biggest venemous animal on the planet".
> 
> Personally I'm looking forward to the programme...


They arn't venomous. Its the bacteria they carry in there mouth which kills you.


----------



## Ssthisto

Psychotiic said:


> They arn't venomous. Its the bacteria they carry in there mouth which kills you.


I take it you haven't read the entire thread, including the posts regarding Dr. Bryan Fry's research into the venom glands of modern Varanidae? 



olivine said:


> Actually, they _are_ venomous;
> 
> A central role for venom in predation by Varanus komodoensis (Komodo Dragon) and the extinct giant Varanus (Megalania) priscus ? PNAS
> 
> Venom is Komodo dragon's lethal weapon - Times Online


Komodos and other monitors *do* appear to have venom glands as shown by dissection and they do produce venom-and-venom-precursors as shown by study of the secretions within the mouth; many monitors do not have effective delivery systems OR do not produce all of the compounds necessary to complete a venom, but Komodos do.


----------



## MJ75

Psychotiic said:


> They arn't venomous. Its the bacteria they carry in there mouth which kills you.


Oh dear...... 

I think you may want to do a little more research before posting again on the subject.

Best...


----------



## naja-naja

and round she goes again....:devil:


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

Down load research paper
http://www.venomdoc.com/downloads/2009_Fry_Komodo&Megalania

The predatory ecology of Varanus komodoensis (Komodo Dragon) has been of long-standing interest and considerable conjecture. My research investigated the roles and potential interplay between cranial mechanics, toxic bacteria, and venom. Results of analyses pointed to the presence of a sophisticated combined-arsenal killing apparatus. It was found that the lightweight skull was relatively poorly adapted to generate high bite forces, but better adapted to resist high pulling loads. The popular notion regarding toxic bacteria utilisation was rejected. Instead, it was demonstrated that the effects of deep wounds inflicted are potentiated through venom with toxic activities including anticoagulation and shock induction. The venom gland is shown to be multi-compartmental with each compartment having a large central lumen (red and pink below) and each of the six compartments having its own duct that thread between successive teeth. Dorsal to the venom gland are hundreds of mucus lobules (yellow below). Anatomical comparisons of V. komodoensis with Varanus (Megalania) priscafossils suggested that the closely-related extinct giant was the largest venomous animal to have lived.
[Bryan Grieg Fry] 

Three movies of magnetic resonance imaging, slicing in from different angles showing the venom gland compartments and how the ducts for each compartment terminate between the teeth.

Komodo Dragons


----------



## Hants-snakes

Snakes Incorporated said:


> No I am not aggressive my dear SW-morelia but personally don’t care for beating around the ‘bush’ playing childish word games to entertain just anybody if that is what you mean.
> 
> ...................................................
> 
> No I have not and never been to Indonesia either.


This guy is hilarious..........

:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:

Right, time to carry on reading....


----------



## ian14

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Down load research paper
> http://www.venomdoc.com/downloads/2009_Fry_Komodo&Megalania
> 
> The predatory ecology of Varanus komodoensis (Komodo Dragon) has been of long-standing interest and considerable conjecture. My research investigated the roles and potential interplay between cranial mechanics, toxic bacteria, and venom. Results of analyses pointed to the presence of a sophisticated combined-arsenal killing apparatus. It was found that the lightweight skull was relatively poorly adapted to generate high bite forces, but better adapted to resist high pulling loads. The popular notion regarding toxic bacteria utilisation was rejected. Instead, it was demonstrated that the effects of deep wounds inflicted are potentiated through venom with toxic activities including anticoagulation and shock induction. The venom gland is shown to be multi-compartmental with each compartment having a large central lumen (red and pink below) and each of the six compartments having its own duct that thread between successive teeth. Dorsal to the venom gland are hundreds of mucus lobules (yellow below). Anatomical comparisons of V. komodoensis with Varanus (Megalania) priscafossils suggested that the closely-related extinct giant was the largest venomous animal to have lived.
> [Bryan Grieg Fry]
> 
> Three movies of magnetic resonance imaging, slicing in from different angles showing the venom gland compartments and how the ducts for each compartment terminate between the teeth.
> 
> Komodo Dragons


Oh this has to be the biggest own goal! For someone who has persistently disagreed with the fact that these are venomous, and has disputed Dr Fry's research, stating numerous posts that this is one person's opinion and that more work is needed, what does he post following a comment that komodo's possess bacteria??

Yes, Dr Fry's paper, complete with a link to both the paper itself AND the images of the glands.


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## slippery42

Snakes Inc.........own goal!


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## MJ75

I think it's time to stop poking fun at Snakes Incorporated. This whole thread will be a source of embarrasment to him,. If you read his posts you can almost see the slightest touch of humility almost creep in towards the end. And thats as good as an apology as you're going to get I suspect! lol

Time to move on....


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## Hants-snakes

ian14 said:


> Oh this has to be the biggest own goal! For someone who has persistently disagreed with the fact that these are venomous, and has disputed Dr Fry's research, stating numerous posts that this is one person's opinion and that more work is needed, what does he post following a comment that komodo's possess bacteria??
> 
> Yes, Dr Fry's paper, complete with a link to both the paper itself AND the images of the glands.


 
:blush: :blush: :blush: :blush: :blush::lol2:


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## Snakes Incorporated

Look guys please stop acting like immature woppy wankers. I never disagreed with the findings but requested more relevant information. (Is this truly so difficult for you to understand???)

I am still in consultation with Bryan and have no problems with what I am being told. I will pass on any relevant information but pls grow up and stop this shit.


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## slippery42

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Look guys please stop acting like immature woppy wankers. I never disagreed with the findings but requested more relevant information. (Is this truly so difficult for you to understand???)
> 
> I am still in consultation with Bryan and have no problems with what I am being told. I will pass on any relevant information but pls grow up and stop this shit.


You are certainly one grumpy guy and really is there any need to swear so much?


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## ian14

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Look guys please stop acting like immature woppy wankers. I never disagreed with the findings but requested more relevant information. (Is this truly so difficult for you to understand???)
> 
> I am still in consultation with Bryan and have no problems with what I am being told. I will pass on any relevant information but pls grow up and stop this shit.


You said this on page 3..



> The world's largest living lizard, the Komodo Dragon (Varanus komodoensis) has a poisonous *bacteria *in its saliva and is not venomous.


You said this on page 4 (and later contradict yourself by posting alink to images of the venom gland of the komodo)..



> Technically venom is retained in a venom sack. If the saliva has a toxic bacteria this does not mean the saliva is venomous.


How about this one, again p4, clealry showing you do NOT agree with his findings...



> I am not disputing an opinion because this is what it is. If you or anyone else wants to believe that toxic saliva is venom then any human or animal that’s bite causes infection is venomous.
> 
> I disagree with one or two observations by Bryan Grieg Fry and have no problem saying that this particular opinion has no logic no matter what anyone says. Fry recons that all species of snake are venomous due to the potential infection after a bite.
> 
> My opinion is that this theory has no basic scientific proof and in short is BULL because my corn snake is non-venomous no matter what anyone says.


I could go on but won't, I think the point has been well proven now. As this has developed you have contradicted you original posts, to the extent that you say you have never disagreed with his findings, yet the above (just a selection) shows otherwise.
Unless I am mistaken, you handle snakes in South Africa and teach others how to do so (although the picture your friend put up hardly demonstrates that you do so safely), and have argued with the findings of one of the leading experts on reptile venom.
As you say, time to stop, you are entitled to an opinion but to swear and abuse at others who dispute your views, preferring to accept the published findings of scientific research by a scientist is unacceptable.
__________________


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## niliano_05

right here goes,
after being a lizard "freak" for some time, i have had great fascination with the Komodo Dragon, now we only realised they existed not that long ago, but something of that stature has been around for decades.
The komodo dragon is not venemous, there are plenty of lizards that hold venom sacks but cannot inject the venom, so therefore are not venemous. I 100% agree with what Snakes Incorporated is saying. If i bite you and you have your arm amputated (hypothetically speaking) does this make me venemous?

there are so many scientists looking up about these fasinating animals and not one has said bar this one that they ARE venemoud but seemed it COULD BE LIKELY if they are venemous.

The way the komodo dragon kills his prey by one single bite not a lock on method this implacated that to inject venom with majority of snakes they need a good firm bite to do so, the komodo if you look or watch any programmes about it you will notice its like a peck, it makes a little gauge in the wound and the prey flees away and hours later is dead due to bacterial infection waring down the immune system leading to a whole body shut down. This does work the same way as venom but HASNT been PROVED to be venom. It is something that has been up for many years now and hasnt been 100% proved due to no1 being able to get close enough to tell the tale. The vicitim of a komodo dragon bite isnt what you would called intoxicated from a venom injection but more like a flu its beat you down until your body goes into "survival mode" and shuts down completely and once this happens the bacteria does its job and therefore kills you.

Look at for argument sake a King Cobra now this bites then injects and this takes more than a nip or a second of biting and doesnt take long to kill you, its venom works in a way to stop the receivers in the brain and puts its own message in blocking the message into the brain which shuts down your nervous system, now thats how venom would work, bacteria on the other hand just attacks your cells in your bod and thats the difference.

If something is POISONESS (spelling) then its where something in its saliva or sting or whatever poisons you i.e a Stinging Netal has silght poison in it hence the itchy bumps you get on skin.
Now if its VENEMOUS it purposely injects venom into your bloody stream to attack your nervous system.

Im no DWA keeper but i am one who does ALOT of research and grouping a bunch of scientists theories this is the most likely. As has been said only one person has said that the komodo dragon is venemous but majority of people who have looked into the animals since being found have not concluded that with good hard evidence.


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## ian14

niliano_05 said:


> right here goes,
> after being a lizard "freak" for some time, i have had great fascination with the Komodo Dragon, now we only realised they existed not that long ago, but something of that stature has been around for decades.
> The komodo dragon is not venemous, there are plenty of lizards that hold venom sacks but cannot inject the venom, so therefore are not venemous. I 100% agree with what Snakes Incorporated is saying. If i bite you and you have your arm amputated (hypothetically speaking) does this make me venemous?
> 
> there are so many scientists looking up about these fasinating animals and not one has said bar this one that they ARE venemoud but seemed it COULD BE LIKELY if they are venemous.
> 
> The way the komodo dragon kills his prey by one single bite not a lock on method this implacated that to inject venom with majority of snakes they need a good firm bite to do so, the komodo if you look or watch any programmes about it you will notice its like a peck, it makes a little gauge in the wound and the prey flees away and hours later is dead due to bacterial infection waring down the immune system leading to a whole body shut down. This does work the same way as venom but HASNT been PROVED to be venom. It is something that has been up for many years now and hasnt been 100% proved due to no1 being able to get close enough to tell the tale. The vicitim of a komodo dragon bite isnt what you would called intoxicated from a venom injection but more like a flu its beat you down until your body goes into "survival mode" and shuts down completely and once this happens the bacteria does its job and therefore kills you.
> 
> Look at for argument sake a King Cobra now this bites then injects and this takes more than a nip or a second of biting and doesnt take long to kill you, its venom works in a way to stop the receivers in the brain and puts its own message in blocking the message into the brain which shuts down your nervous system, now thats how venom would work, bacteria on the other hand just attacks your cells in your bod and thats the difference.
> 
> If something is POISONESS (spelling) then its where something in its saliva or sting or whatever poisons you i.e a Stinging Netal has silght poison in it hence the itchy bumps you get on skin.
> Now if its VENEMOUS it purposely injects venom into your bloody stream to attack your nervous system.
> 
> Im no DWA keeper but i am one who does ALOT of research and grouping a bunch of scientists theories this is the most likely. As has been said only one person has said that the komodo dragon is venemous but majority of people who have looked into the animals since being found have not concluded that with good hard evidence.


If you bother to read this through properly then you will see that this is not correct. Venom glands have been located, the animal is venomous. A bit confused about your remark that they have been around for "decades" as thay have been around for a hell of a lot longer than that!
And a venomous snake does NOT need a good hold, most species employ a lightning fast strike and release again, often the prey animal does not even realise it has been bitten.


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## niliano_05

venom glands and actual injectors are 2 different things. Loads of animals have venom glands and are still unable to inject.

all im saying is there are more than one person looking into this and your saying this one guy is ilke rambo and knows it all? over 100's of others? al i can say. 

This snake industries guy lives in africa and deals with various of VENEMOUS animals day to day and your telling him and me that he wouldnt no the difference between the two?

tell me you ever been bitten or attacked by a VENEMOUS animal? wait i no the answer
NO!

have i? NO
but has my close friend who keeps DWA
YES
hence why i no the difference


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## niliano_05

right i stand slightly corrected.

There has been more work on doctor frys work now by a different scientist and this has been said:

*The Komodo dragon has a bite tinged with a deadly venom, according to researchers.*
Previously it was thought the Komodo's mouth harboured virulent bacteria that quickly infected and subdued prey. 
But an analysis of Komodo specimens has shown a well-developed venom gland with ducts that lead to their large teeth. 
The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences report shows that rather than using a strong bite force, Komodos keep a vice-like grip on their prey. 
In this way, the venom can seep into the large wounds they make with their teeth. 
The work is a follow-up to a 2006 study by Bryan Fry of the Australian Venom Research Unit at the University of Melbourne. 
The study showed that known venomous lizards, such as the Gila monster of the south-western US, were in the same lineage as Komodo dragons. 
It went on to describe how the venom systems in the lizards and snakes actually came from a common ancestor. 
Members of the same team have now used a computer simulation to model the skulls of Komodo dragons. They found that their bite was only one-sixth as strong as that of the Australian saltwater crocodile, which has a similarly-sized skull. 
Instead, Komodo skulls seem optimised to withstand stress along their length - that is, to resist prey that is pulling away. 
Further, the team took MRI scans of Komodo heads, identifying a large venom gland and ducts that lead to spaces between the animals' teeth. 
Dissection of the duct showed toxins that are known to lower blood pressure and act as anti-coagulants - causing prey to go into shock and bleed to death. 
*'Radical' suggestion*







Megalania may have been the largest venomous animal in history

The researchers suggest that Komodo dragons produce a small amount of comparatively weak venom, and the delivery method is not the most efficient. 
"These lizards make a huge wound using their teeth; that's good enough to get the venom in," says Christofer Clemente, a comparative physiologist at the University of Cambridge and a co-author of the study. 
"They are robust enough that they can hang on to prey. Other groups like snakes are much more fragile - they have to bite something and let it go. So they have these hollow fangs and more deadly venom." 
The findings would put another leading theory for Komodo predation to rest: that bacteria present in their mouths quickly infect prey. 
That suggestion was first posited briefly in a seminal book by Walter Auffenberg in 1981. However, more recent experiments have failed to show a bacterium species common to all Komodos. 
"That whole theory has been touted around for years, but has never really been proven," said Ian Stephen, curator of herpetology at the London Zoo. 
Dr Stephen told the BBC that the suggestion of the venomous nature of Komodo dragons was a "radical" one that raises the question of why the venom gland had not been discovered in dissected specimens before now. 
But, he said of the paper, "it is very interesting and it does all seem to make sense". 
The results also suggest that the now-extinct Megalania - a close relative of Komodos that grew to seven metres in length - would also have been venomous. It would therefore have been the largest venomous animal ever to have lived. 


*
*


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## Ssthisto

niliano_05 said:


> tell me you ever been bitten or attacked by a VENEMOUS animal? wait i no the answer
> NO!


Yes, actually. Stepped on a wild prairie rattler.

Doesn't make *me* an expert on venom or venomous reptiles, mind you - it just makes me someone who's had the life experience of walking down three miles' worth of New Mexico canyon rock scrambles wondering if she was doing more harm than good. It makes me someone who had to make the choice between staying put and keeping my pulse rate down but likely not being found for hours to days since I wasn't on a well traveled path or walking out myself and risking more systemic effects. 

Fortunately it was a dry bite... does that mean the rattler wasn't venomous, seeing as it didn't actually envenomate me? Probably not - it just means "someone up there" was looking out for a stupid teenager that wasn't looking where she was putting her feet.

Do gilas and beadeds "inject" the venom, incidentally? I thought it sort of just dribbled down grooves in the teeth, but I'm open to correction if I'm wrong


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## Snakes Incorporated

slippery42 said:


> You are certainly one grumpy guy and really is there any need to swear so much?


Being grumpy is not the issue but you being a general ass and your wanker buddies’ being painfully immature does tend to annoy. Accept that other people may have an alternative opinion and leave it there.

ian14 you are correct I was not entirely convinced that the creature in question had indeed a functioning venom delivery system. I have made my own enquires within the scientific venom researchers fraternity this side of the world and have had some of my queries sufficiently answered. 

Shaun MacLeod
Bryan when researching venom in Komodo Dragons do you use? Post mortem or living specimens?

Bryan Grieg Fry
Live, freshly euthanised and preserved

Shaun MacLeod
I take it the live guys were zoo specimens used for the MRI scanning. 
Out of interest how did you stimulate the duct to function while being scanned? Was it an electric stimulus of some sort?

Bryan Grieg Fry
MRI was on a preserved head. The ducts weren't stimulated as they have no function other than being garden hoses to conduct the venom. The MRI movies show individual scan slices moving through from different angles

Bryan Grieg Fry
Hemorrhagic and cardiotoxic. The key is that the venom exaggerates the deep tissue damage caused by the long serrated teeth. The teeth are the primary weapon, the venom supplements it.

Maddy Maderazo
very illuminating...i used to believe (basing on what i see on documentaries)that they dont have venoms and that their bites are lethal because of the multitude of bacteria residing in their mouths.causing infection and thereby septicemia resulting to the death of their prey in which they eat the carcass...erm what type of venom is it?neurotoxic or the ones that involve pre digestion?Is it in massive quantities when they inject it?whats the actual killer to the prey?is it the venom or the bacteria?

Maddy Maderazo
oh i forgot to ask..during mating season when all male komodo dragons vie for the title of alpha maleship and mate with the females..they do fight off each other obviously biting and clawing..are they themselves immune to their own toxicology and chemical warfare?

Bryan Grieg Fry
Venomous animals are universally immune to their own venom through various mechanisms.

Etc. etc.


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## slippery42

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Being grumpy is not the issue but you being a general ass and your wanker buddies’ being painfully immature does tend to annoy. Accept that other people may have an alternative opinion and leave it there.
> 
> ian14 you are correct I was not entirely convinced that the creature in question had indeed a functioning venom delivery system. I have made my own enquires within the scientific venom researchers fraternity this side of the world and have had some of my queries sufficiently answered.
> 
> Shaun MacLeod
> Bryan when researching venom in Komodo Dragons do you use? Post mortem or living specimens?
> 
> Bryan Grieg Fry
> Live, freshly euthanised and preserved
> 
> Shaun MacLeod
> I take it the live guys were zoo specimens used for the MRI scanning.
> Out of interest how did you stimulate the duct to function while being scanned? Was it an electric stimulus of some sort?
> 
> Bryan Grieg Fry
> MRI was on a preserved head. The ducts weren't stimulated as they have no function other than being garden hoses to conduct the venom. The MRI movies show individual scan slices moving through from different angles
> 
> Bryan Grieg Fry
> Hemorrhagic and cardiotoxic. The key is that the venom exaggerates the deep tissue damage caused by the long serrated teeth. The teeth are the primary weapon, the venom supplements it.
> 
> Maddy Maderazo
> very illuminating...i used to believe (basing on what i see on documentaries)that they dont have venoms and that their bites are lethal because of the multitude of bacteria residing in their mouths.causing infection and thereby septicemia resulting to the death of their prey in which they eat the carcass...erm what type of venom is it?neurotoxic or the ones that involve pre digestion?Is it in massive quantities when they inject it?whats the actual killer to the prey?is it the venom or the bacteria?
> 
> Maddy Maderazo
> oh i forgot to ask..during mating season when all male komodo dragons vie for the title of alpha maleship and mate with the females..they do fight off each other obviously biting and clawing..are they themselves immune to their own toxicology and chemical warfare?
> 
> Bryan Grieg Fry
> Venomous animals are universally immune to their own venom through various mechanisms.
> 
> Etc. etc.


I dont normally get drawn in but is this guy for real?


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## Snakes Incorporated

Hey slippery42 the question is what are you taking about? All you are doing is adding useless snide remarks. 
Got anything to say lets hear it or crawled back under that rock you crawled out from under.


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## Hants-snakes

Snakes Incorporated said:


> ......................Venomous animals are universally immune to their own venom through various mechanisms.
> 
> Etc. etc.


Just like _Naja naja_ is hu? :bash:


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## Hants-snakes

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Look guys please stop acting like *immature woppy wankers*. I never disagreed with the findings but requested more relevant information. (Is this truly so difficult for you to understand???)
> 
> I am still in consultation with Bryan and have no problems with what I am being told. I will pass on any relevant information but pls grow up and stop this shit.


:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2::lol2:


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## Snakes Incorporated

Yes Hants-snakes you are trying to say what?

Dang you guys are an absolute waste of time. You kids have never seen a venomous animal other than behind glass at the local zoo if that but consider yourselves experts. 
The closest you've ever been to experiencing wild life is when you visit the salad section at Woolworth's.
Your ridiculous comments about nothing never ends as one twot replaces another in a never ending silly circle and so it continues. 
If anyone is grown up enough to have anything intelligent to say. PM as I am bored with this kindergarten.

No email notification


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## Grond

Snakes Incorporated said:


> The closest you've ever been to experiencing wild life is when you visit the salad section at Woolworth's.


Woolworths went bust so now we even miss out on that........:whistling2:


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## MJ75

Snakes Incorporated said:


> You kids have never seen a venomous animal other than behind glass at the local zoo if that but consider yourselves experts.


I've seen many in the wild thanks. In North America, Africa and India. Ironically, I've never seen salad for sale in Woolies though! :lol2:

Maybe you're ridiculed and treated like a forum monkey as you assume you're the only person who knows anything. Only you clearly don't as your ideas have been pointed out to be incorrect on this very thread. Maybe if you stopped acting like a foolish moron people may show some respect? Or if it's easier for you, why just not come back here? Or are you a troll? Perhaps you deliberately come across as an uneducated bafoon to try and get a rise from other members? 

Or maybe you just need to grow up a little yourself?


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## Ssthisto

Snakes Incorporated said:


> You kids have never seen a venomous animal other than behind glass at the local zoo if that but consider yourselves experts.
> The closest you've ever been to experiencing wild life is when you visit the salad section at Woolworth's.


As I said, I've seen a wild venomous animal so close up that (a part of) it was embedded briefly in my ankle. I've sat down two feet away from a dozing/basking prairie rattler. I've peered into a gap between two granite boulders and seen a western diamondback as thick as my arm looking back. 

I grew up in Albuquerque, New Mexico (and I regret I never made it to the Rattlesnake Museum - if I'd known it was there I'd have practically LIVED there!). My childhood was spent chasing whiptails, skinks, earless lizards, fence lizards, horny toads and collareds.

I also own a venomous snake - the fact that he's a Western Hognose and not typically considered of medical significance nor licenced under the DWA act doesn't mean he isn't venomous 

Someday we might like to have European viperid species, and possibly, if we're happy with the vipers and our ability to keep them, maybe someday crotalids as well.

Snakes-Inc, you're not the only one on this forum with a passion for or experience with venomous species... I have much less captive-animal experience with them than most of the folks in the DWA section, and probably a lot less wild-animal experience than some of them... but "less" is not equivalent to "none".


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## pythondave82

Hey Slippery – when we visit Cape Town next year, I think we would benefit in meeting up with ‘Snakes Incorporated’, you have a lot to learn mate, don’t worry we wont make you crawl under any shoddy rocks.

And, should we do lunch in Wooly’s since it’s no longer a trading company in the UK anymore?

All my love,

The snake incorporated back-up team :gasp:


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