# My RSPCA visit! Bearded dragon death...



## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Well for anyone who saw my this thread : http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/102234-bearded-dragon-death-so-angry.html

The owner DID report me to the RSPCA and they came round today!:bash:

I know my rights about not having to let them in, but i also have nothing to hide.

The report was that apparently all of my animals were in poor health and had no food, and the vivs had no proper lighting or substrate.:bash:

The inspector was one i have seen on a few occasions when i have reported cases, so i know him to a reasonable extent anyway. 

He had a good look in the vivs, it was quite obvious that there was nothing wrong with any of my livestock. UV tubes where needed, records of daily temperature checks etc, fresh food/water a-plenty. 

I told him the full story of the dragons, explained to him why i didn`t use a substrate and only newspaper, ie they were infested with mites when i bought them. 

He looked at my parrots and asked me the usual questions about feeding routines etc. Looked at my torts and their papers and looked over their setup.


All in all he went away a happy little inspector and complemented me on my knowledge....but i still can`t believe that this bloke had the cheek to forcefeed a sick bearded dragon half a pint of water plus liquidised veg and calcium and then has the nerve to report ME to the RSPCA!!!!!!

All fun eh??:bash:


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

I would have done the same, invited him in then show'd him around. 

Some people need their head looking at ! :bash:


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

is this person a forum user?

please PM me their username, I have n o wish to buy or sell to this person.


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Mason said:


> is this person a forum user?
> 
> please PM me their username, I have n o wish to buy or sell to this person.


 
He is not a forum member, i will PM you his name though, because i wouldn`t place any living creature in the care of this guy.


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## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Can you not report him/her to the RSPCA?

I know it may appear to be petty but if they have other reps, and he's giving 1/2 pint of liquid and liquidised food to a brumating beardie (i know nothing bout beardies other than what you stated earlier in the thread) then they aren't at all knowledgable and questions need to be asked if theri other animals are at risk?


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Mandy thats horrific.. having beef with someone/ disagreeing etc is one thing but reporting you in this way is shameful...

did you ever find out the cause of death of the poor wee beardie????


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## elliottreed (Jan 9, 2008)

if they were so concerned it was you that was the problem
and not them

then an autopsy/post mortem should have been carried out

can't understand the gall of some people
hope you're ok miss
xx


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

sparkle said:


> Mandy thats horrific.. having beef with someone/ disagreeing etc is one thing but reporting you in this way is shameful...
> 
> did you ever find out the cause of death of the poor wee beardie????


 
Thanks, thats what i thought too. I know that my animals are cared for, maybe not perfect, but then who is? They never go without food, water, heat, UV, etc, whatever it is they need, they have.
The guy was actually watching the other female beardie eating greens under the UV tube when he collected the female, and i was handfeeding them waxies in their presence, so the reports that they had no food/water or proper lighting was purely malicious. :bash:

Sadly no, we will never know for definite what the cause of death was.


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## reef (Jan 4, 2008)

after reading both threads im still reeling with anger please pm his name i have a few mates in the rspca maybe i could arrange a vist to his premises


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## slither61 (Nov 18, 2006)

Hi all 

I would like his name PM to me please so I can avoid him.

Glad it was all ok for you.

Thanks

slither61 :snake::snake::snake::snake:


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## unrealjill (Aug 17, 2007)

did you explain the the rspca guy the story behind the complaint? surely that should have caused them to be suspicious about the buyer... maybe enough to arrange a visit to him instead


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

glad the rspca visit went fine..
did you the inspector what the guy did and how he ignored your advice and apparently buggered the poor thing to death?

bloke wants a good kickin.


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## Raeven (Mar 15, 2007)

I am stunned he went ahead and reported you,,,,,, words really fail me!!
You did the right thing imo showing the inspector around, it just shows him what a malicious little s**t this guy is. Its a shame that he cant be charged with wasting peoples time. I sooooo hope he gets the instant Karma he is due.
You have handled this situation with remarkable dignity, you should be very proud of yourself. Please PM this guys name to me so I can make sure he is not offered any re-homes from our rescue or from people we know. Thanks


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## ChrisBowman (Jan 1, 2008)

Can i have his name too please  so i no not to deal with him


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## amazoncat (Feb 12, 2008)

This happens a lot with animal keepers as I'm sure you are all aware. The owner of the stables I go to in Cambridge says she gets about one visit resulting from a complaint every other month. Her horses are in exceptional condition - it is just malicious. She says that the RSCPA normally know they are hoax calls when the caller doesn't give their name so I'd be interested to know if this guy gave his name when clearly lying about the way you treat your animals.


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## Brat (Oct 7, 2007)

What an idiot!
Good on you for letting them in to prove him wrong. I've seen for myself that the Beardies were kept in absolutely fine conditions, else I wouldn't have had your other adult female (Who is a picture of health, currently sleeping happily in my viv!).. and your parrots are gorgeous.. shame on you for making me want one though now lol


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## CBR1100XX (Feb 19, 2006)

Please remember we only have one side of the story here. What people forget is that the Beardie was sold on in a sick condition therefore it may have been too late anyway. Obviously I cannot comment on what happened in the care of the buyer as his info is not directly from him.

Was this Beardie taken to a vet knowing it was in poor health or just sold on without knowing what was wrong with it?

I am more concerned that the beardie was sold on in poor health, which seems to be overseen due to everyone focusing on the person buying the beardie.


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

fazer600sy said:


> Please remember we only have one side of the story here. What people forget is that the Beardie was sold on in a sick condition therefore it may have been too late anyway. Obviously I cannot comment on what happened in the care of the buyer as his info is not directly from him.
> 
> Was this Beardie taken to a vet knowing it was in poor health or just sold on without knowing what was wrong with it?
> 
> I am more concerned that the beardie was sold on in poor health, which seems to be overseen due to everyone focusing on the person buying the beardie.


To my knowledge the beardie did not need to see a vet at that time. When i bought her she was brumating and crawling with mites, which were immediately treated. I was waiting for her to come round fully from brumation before trying to feed her back up. My other female only came round from brumation a week before this girl was rehomed. I had no reason to think she wouldn`t follow suit.

I did not "sell her on in poor health", she was rehomed to someone who i thought, and appeared to have more knowledge than myself, i asked for a rehoming fee to ensure she was not taken by any tom dick or harry as a freebie. 
The "buyer" was fully aware of her condition, looked her over thoroughly and made the choice to take her home knowing that she wasn`t feeding as she should.

When anyone on here makes a post about beardies saying they are not eating, the main response is that "its the time of year, many beardies go off their food at this time of year" So why would i feel i had something to worry about?

Her actual bodily condition was not perfect, but she was not skin and bone, nor severely dehydrated, the mites had gone and i had no reason to believe that any further problems would occur. 

It was my intention to rehome all of my beardies, as i have now done, all the others were in perfect health and condition. All i did was to rehome her before her feeding had fully picked up to someone who said he had experience in restarting feeding.

I thought i was doing my best for her, if i thought for one minute she needed to see a vet then she would have seen one.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Mandy i feel sorry for you i really do , but maybe fazer was just wondering if she had been your only pet for instance if you might have taken her to vet... but the guy calling the rspca was vindictive and nasty.. he should IF he cared that much have paid for a ful autopsy.. he was vry very wrong not to at least combine with you on this to get it done./... his actions were more about causing you stress than helping find out what went wrong.. howevr on the other side of the coin.. and thers always two sides to every coin... when u said..

TO MY KNOWLOEDGE THE BEARDIE DID NOT NEED TO SEE A VET AT THAT TIME..


is liek saying.. i dont know if she needed treatment

i know when weve all got more than 3 or 4 or 10 or 20 we tend to treat at home..
I really wish there was something i could do or say to make this outcome for the beardie different but since we cant lets learn something from it please....

noone is directly blaming you for her death in anyway... perhaps the stress of the move for her was what tipped it... who knows..

but maybe just maybe if something quiet and hearfelt can be taken from this the lesson might be,,., never assume we know... always check..

vet visits cost time and money which can be increasinly hard hard with kids ( i have 2) a demanding job and other animals .... I think no matter what you do care for your animals... we all in hindsight could do better could learn..
I for one have learned hard by my mistakes but ive tried to take repsonsibility for things and realised in my defensiveness in the past i may have actually not done what was exactly right for my animal... we have all m ade mistakes in every part of life.. its the only thing that teaches us...

rather than this turn into a BLAME thread... perhaps make it a learning thread..

the lesson being..

IF youre unsure CHECK IT... we would for our kids as they cant do it for themselves and its the same for our animals.. dont wait just cause youre selling or rehoming... im not getting at you mandy as i genuinely feel for you here im just trying to fnd some common ground and point things out so the death of this wee beardie maybe isnt in vain.. maybe this thread might help other people and they might think.. VET VISIT sooner...

I would never give the advice to a non-eating beardie who had previously had mites not too worry its brumation.. id always err on side of caution and advise a vet visit... not all beardies brumate and its not a good idea to assume they are... but i do know loads of beardie keeeprs here that would have given that advice.. but i honestly wouldnt have... after the absolute horrific nightmare i went through with elle and my pythons lastyear i can honestly say that egtting my snakes to the vets within 24 hours each of their symtoms developing is probably what saved them... rather than thinking OH ITS JUST AN R.I i went overboard with carte blancche finacially for treatment as well as constant check ups etc even when they were well.... I just know i cant take risks.. i know that if u wait... animals can die... ive watched it happen to friends whove waited.. people who love their animals who thought it was OK.. when it wasnt...

I for one am not blaming you... but everyone including myself can choose to either become defensive over things or learn and see perhaps where they could have done things differently..

the guy was angry and thought he was right.. youre hurt and angry and feel youre right BUT...

in the middle is a wee dead animals who was previously sick... perhaps a wee vet visit in hindsight would have been appropriate

PS i hope theres something to be learned for all of us with this...


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

sparkle said:


> Mandy i feel sorry for you i really do , but maybe fazer was just wondering if she had been your only pet for instance if you might have taken her to vet... when u said..
> 
> TO MY KNOWLOEDGE THE BEARDIE DID NOT NEED TO SEE A VET AT THAT TIME..
> 
> ...


 
Sorry i disagree, in that when a snake regurges, has it automatically got a stomach infection? So i automatically take it to see a vet just because there is a slight chance?
Every brumating beardie in the country should go to the vets because its not eating? Just in case?
If my dog sneezes, it may have a severe canine disease, or more likely a bit of fluff up her nose. Should i take her to a vet?
If a new royal doesn`t feed, does it go to the vets to be examined and stressed or is it left to settle in first?

Surely more stress is put on the animal by taking it to the vets every five minutes when it does something that is usually completely normal for the species.

We see symptoms of alsorts in all of our animals everyday, each could be a normal part of their behaviour or a fatal disease. I won`t take risks if i feel something isn`t right, but the other 2 beardies she came with were in brumation when i had them, why would i imagine her to be any different?


I do not have an issue with vets bills, if they need treatment they get it, end of, if that means i get a loan then so be it but i never begrudge my animals veterinary care because of finances.

I do not have any regrets over my treatment of the beardie, or any other animal in my care. 
The only regret i have is letting her go to where she did.


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

Having read this thread and the other, there does appear to be a very obvious cause of death... Most people (myself included) wouldn't look further for another one - because the one thing we do know of is practically un-survivable for any beardie!


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

This is a really hard situation and i really feel for you and what has happened especially as i am dealing with a similar situation only just not with reptiles and i do not have a good RSPCA officer infact just the opposite. I have been reported so many times for the supposed state of my animals and the fact that i am supposedly not looking after them or giving them proper care etc and infact i feel if you know your animals well enough you do know if it is an illness or normal behaviour. At the moment i have a baby beardie recovering from mbd and like yourself the only time i would take to the vets now is if it was showing abnormal behaviour which obviously this poor beardie wasnt (Other than brumination signs) and i know i would of made the same decision as you had regarding vets. I feel that it was wrong of this person to report you for this as they were aware of its none feeding and to be honest i find the treatment they inflicted on this beardie was much worse no one worth their salt would do what was done to this beardie feeding wise. 
Yes with hindsight things could be done diferently but thats the thing with hindsight, the only good that come out of this is that we have all learned something about behaviour in both beardies and people and shows we are all fallible, and certain people in this world like to blame others rather than themselves for things (ie the person that took on this beardie) I am glad everything did work out ok with you and the RSPCA though just hope in the end i get the same luck


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

spirit975 said:


> Sorry i disagree, in that when a snake regurges, has it automatically got a stomach infection? So i automatically take it to see a vet just because there is a slight chance?
> Every brumating beardie in the country should go to the vets because its not eating? Just in case?
> If my dog sneezes, it may have a severe canine disease, or more likely a bit of fluff up her nose. Should i take her to a vet?
> If a new royal doesn`t feed, does it go to the vets to be examined and stressed or is it left to settle in first?
> ...


we can agree to disagree.. a dog sneeze is not the same as a beardie whom you admitted was poorly and therefore also rehomed and didnt sell as you felt her health was not right... if her health was right thenn you woul;d not have had to rehome her with the warnings about her health or poorish condition..

i know you care about your animals mandy im not doubting it..

but sammy has made a similar point to me above.. we could al consider things differently .. being defensive and RIGHT isnt what this is about

and i think the cause of her death was the liquids administered before she died by the guy you rehomed her too..

BUT..... say the beardie hadnt been rehomed... at what point would you have taken her to the vet.. come on??

IF the beardie was FINE before rehoming why rehome her with a warning she wasnt ok..

that seems odd to me..

i dont believe for ONE single second you casued her death mandy... honestly..

but you could have had her checked...

fazer has a VERY valid point allbeit he said it in a much stronger manner than me...

you dont need to have regrets mandy... noone does..

but if i were you all i know is i would have... i think though its fair to say i 100% dont think u caused the death .. but maybe just maybe she could have been seen by a vet BEFORE you rehomed a poorly dragon...

thats all


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## reptilesrock (Jun 3, 2007)

Please may i have his name, and location. (from a law point of view i could see that some relevant bodies pursue this )


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## CBR1100XX (Feb 19, 2006)

reptilesrock said:


> Please may i have his name, and location. (from a law point of view i could see that some relevant bodies pursue this )


:lol2::lol2: You are a law student. Who you going to speak to your tutor.:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## LimaMikeSquared (Jan 16, 2008)

I was offered a gecko by someone of the boards and it fell ill. He still offeredit to me but I refused on the grounds that I wasn't experienced enough to give it the treatment it needed. So they kindly said they would look after it until it got better and they took it to the vet. Sadly it had internal organ problems and had to be put to sleep - it would have passed on anyway. 

Mandy - You did say it was not in prime condition - and gave him the choice to take it and he choose to, he didn't have to, but he did. It's not your fault he didn't give it the proper treatment. Even just leaving it alone for settling in by the sound of it.

Still I would have taken it to the vet just to make sure it wasn't something more. Just in case.

Dont beat yourself up about it, things like this happen, just got to learn lessons and move on, on both sides of the story.

LMS


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

sparkle said:


> we can agree to disagree.. a dog sneeze is not the same as a beardie whom you admitted was poorly and therefore also rehomed and didnt sell as you felt her health was not right... if her health was right thenn you woul;d not have had to rehome her with the warnings about her health or poorish condition..
> 
> i know you care about your animals mandy im not doubting it..
> 
> ...


 
The only thing is, i haven`t said she was poorly, because i don`t believe she was. She wasn`t in the best physical shape, ie a little underweight, as they all were when they came to me, but as far as i am concerned and knew at the time she was in brumation. There was nothing else that would signify otherwise. 

I always offer refunds if something isn`t right, or offer to buy back the animal if needed as you know. Its called aftercare. Whether or not the buyer chooses to sell back to me or take me up on the offer is entirely up to them. The offer of a refund, and aftercare communication is offered to anyone who buys anything from me.

The point at which i would have taken her to the vet would be when i became genuinely concerned about her health. As i did with my cornsnake when she started regurging and ended up injecting her daily with antibiotics, tube feeding fluids and paying out for the vet etc, so please don`t try and put across that i wouldn`t have taken her or didn`t care enough to do so because i did. I even made the appt for the postmortem BEFORE he agreed to give me back the body, as soon as i heard about her death, only to cancel it when he refused.

Yes, i could have had her vet checked, but again why would i vet check a brumating beardie? Are all animals in your care vet checked even if you are not concerned about their health? The point about the dog sneezing was that it is normal behaviour for a dog. Brumation and not feeding for a beardie is common winter behaviour. I don`t generally take animals to the vet for showing normal species behaviour.

I didn`t rehome her because i thought she was poorly, i rehomed ALL of my bearded dragons as i know that expecting a baby means i wouldn`t have the time in the future to breed them as planned, and due to the extra space i will need.

There is no doubt in my mind that this girl would still be alive and by now feeding if still in my care.

I understand you`re not blaming me for her death, but i also don`t appreciate my husbandry being questioned when there is very little that i could or should have done at that time.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

spirit975 said:


> The only thing is, i haven`t said she was poorly, because i don`t believe she was. She wasn`t in the best physical shape, ie a little underweight but as far as i am concerned and knew at the time she was in brumation. There was nothing else that would signify otherwise.
> 
> I always offer refunds if something isn`t right, or offer to buy back the animal if needed as you know. Its called aftercare. Whether or not the buyer chooses to sell back to me or take me up on the offer is entirely up to them. The offer of a refund, and aftercare communication is offered to anyone who buys anything from me.
> 
> ...


 
just wanted to point you to what YOU said in another thread so theres no confusion here... 

can you clear up if this is the SAME beardie.. if so then there seems to be some sort of conflict of what you have said?>?? if you read the first part fo your first post it says clearly


I sold a bearded dragon female to someone who i thought gave the impression that he knew what he was doing. 

He was fully aware that she had been brumating and wasn`t feeding very well, she was also a bit dehydrated due to not feeding. I only decided to rehome her due to my current circumstances and my lack of time, knowledge etc to get her feeding. I wish i hadn`t now.

She was advertised as not being in the best of health, and i sold her giving him full information about her condition and behaviour, he had a good look at her before he took her and still wanted to take her. Her price very much reflected her condition, and took only a token gesture money wise to ensure that she wasn`t seen as "free to a good home"


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/102234-bearded-dragon-death-so-angry.html


now as far as i can see the last paragraph you write clearly indictates you knew the beardie was not in the best of health

in fact your words were

She was advertised as not being in the best of health..

unless were talking about two seperate beardies here i am totally baffled..

sorry if it is two seperate beardies..

but can you clear up why you yourself would state

NOT IN BEST OF HEALTH

then get annoyed at me suggesting if you KNEW this why didnt u take it to a vet,.,

IM BAFFLED>>>>


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## RedGex (Dec 29, 2007)

just my opinion, but not in the best of health, to me, means not in prime condition, maybe a little underweight, it doesn't say it was ill or sick, just got the impression from what was written that she wasn't feeding properly yet and needed a little extra tlc, which this guy was fully aware of.
Things can be interpreted differently by different people.


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

sparkle said:


> just wanted to point you to what YOU said in another thread so theres no confusion here...
> 
> can you clear up if this is the SAME beardie.. if so then there seems to be some sort of conflict of what you have said?>?? if you read the first part fo your first post it says clearly
> 
> ...


She was underweight, as i said, she was covered in mites when i bought her which were sorted and cleared, again as stated. Therefore not in the best of the health would indicate that that her body condition wasn`t brilliant, yet again as stated. What else should i have put on a public advert? Where exactly have i contradicted myself? Again the buyer fully examined her before he decided to take her, it wasn`t as if she was sold unseen. I couldn`t say she was in the best condition on the advert because it wouldn`t be true. I thought that advertising her as NOT IN THE BEST OF HEALTH would attract only people who were genuinly capable of feeding her up safely.

NOT IN THE BEST OF HEALTH as you so well capitalised for me, possibly should have said, not in the best of condition, but then what would you have thrown at me, questioning my feeding or something else?


I`ve not long found out that the RSPCA were holding her body, and told me that although they hadn`t seen the need to perform a full PM, they ran bloods which turned out fine. Good calcium levels therefore disproving his claims about insufficient lighting.

When you bought that corn, did i or did i not offer you the money back for her if you didn`t want her? I offer refunds for everything.

I won`t comment on this further as i know i did nothing wrong, i have had many many positive responses to this, all but 2 people have agreed that they wouldn`t have taken her to the vet with the behaviour she was displaying.


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