# Western Hognose - What's wrong with his belly?



## AerisFelidae

I came into possession of a six year old male western hognose (who I have dubbed Harvey) about three months ago.
I have not, since getting him, been successful in convincing him to take a feed. Hes on small mice and no matter what I do, he ignores them entirely.

My friend, who has owned some snakes in past, says that it's probably the stress of the move+not knowing my scent. Both they, and the previous owners, have STRONGLY cautioned me not to try handling him until he takes feeds from me.

A few days ago, he started stretching up against the glass of his viv, and I noticed these patches that I haven't seen before. I don't know when they appeared because I haven't been handling him - and I notice now when I'm trying to feed him he's a lot more active - still not taking the mouse but is hissing and jumping away


































The scales don't appear to have changed texture, there's no crinkling and while the edges of the grey patches have a "torn" look, the texture doesn't reflect that. It seems to be fully in the colour

I thought maybe scale rot but it doesn't match many of the pictures I'm seeing, apart from maybe the red spots. But when googling and searching across forums, someone said the red dots were similar to dots seen when shedding, which I can't find any info for. And someone on Reddit told me that the red dots indicate septicemia? But the pictures I can find of that don't look like this.

I'll admit his substrate is due a refresh, I've just been unsure how to handle that when I've been told not to handle him. But I've been picking up leavings or dirt and spot cleaning any visible uncleanliness so he's not exactly been living in filth. I do have Betadine if it's needed.

He's still really active, he ZOOMS around his viv when he's not basking or hiding, the only change in behaviour is the apparent defensiveness when I try to feed him. His eyes haven't clouded over like I've been told they do when they shed

The local exotic vet books up fast so can't see him for a bit, but told me upon looking at the pictures that they "look normal" but didn't elaborate further

I've also been regularly looking over his top half which has looked fine until today - I've noticed one or two small, slightly greyed patches but again no texture changes

Is this all normal for a hoggie? Or could it be a form of scale rot? Or something else?


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## ian14

Odd. At first glance it just looks like normall hog pattern. But zooming in it looks as if scales have ripped off. Is there sticky tape in the viv?


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## AerisFelidae

ian14 said:


> Odd. At first glance it just looks like normall hog pattern. But zooming in it looks as if scales have ripped off. Is there sticky tape in the viv?


None - 3 inches of aspen substrate, a bark hide, a smoother hide, a branch and some foliage, all of which have been in his viv since before he came to me and previous owners were experienced with snakes. He also hasnt been out of the viv since coming to me as he hasn't taken feed.

He's acting normal, would such a degree of torn off scales not be causing discomfort/pain? The tearing pattern looks to me to flow smoothly into the regular areas, no raised/jagged edges.

getting him to vet asap but as said above he's got a wait list :/


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## Malc

It's so strange, as if the pigment hasn't formed in the scales...or something in the environment is causing the damage, given the red particles on some images. Can you provide details on how you are hosing the snake, the heating used, how its controlled and what substrate and decorations you have used and how you have fixed them. Plus details of the temps for hot and cold side and how they are measured. This may help us come up with some suggestions. The fact a vet doesn't seem overly concerned would suggest its nothing major

Edit - see you juts posted some of the info I requested


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## Swindinian

I am not familiar with hoggies.

I would presume scale rot would occur following chemical or physical damage, and more associated with sitting in damp conditions?

Substrate looks pretty ok, so Ian’s hunch seems most plausible.

Very active behaviour could relate to season, wanting to find mate to breed, but alternatively could also relate to wanting to escape (too hot etc?)

How are you heating the viv?


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## ian14

It's not scale rot. Scale rot always causes brown crinkled edges to the scales which isn't present here.


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## AerisFelidae

Malc said:


> It's so strange, as if the pigment hasn't formed in the scales...or something in the environment is causing the damage, given the red particles on some images. Can you provide details on how you are hosing the snake, the heating used, how its controlled and what substrate and decorations you have used and how you have fixed them. Plus details of the temps for hot and cold side and how they are measured. This may help us come up with some suggestions. The fact a vet doesn't seem overly concerned would suggest its nothing major
> 
> Edit - see you juts posted some of the info I requested


Sorry for the late response on this, wasn't hime and wanted to get as much detailed info as possible









The Viv is 25inches wide, and he is around 2foot long. Its heated by a UV basking lamp on the right hand side and the overall temperature remains a steady 80° with a hide on both the hot and cool side, no heat mat. The water is refreshed daily, and the decorations all seem to be secured by being nestled into the substrate.

I'm aware from reading more and reptile forums that I need to get an extra thermostat and a proper measure for humidity, but I want to make a point that when I say he was given to me - he was given to me with all his kit included. He was given to me inside the vivarium, set up as it is now. The only thing I have changed since is the placement of the viv itself (literally just moving it to a quieter room)

I only mention this because the previous owners did not mention any issues like this regarding his environment, I have no reason to think they were hiding anything, and his environment has not been changed.
So it's concerning me greatly that, if this is damage, _something_ must have changed drastically if he's developed something so severe looking so suddenly, and I have no idea what it could be.

Thanks for all your help in this so far - I'm a first time reptile owner so seeing something like this develop, but not being able to access a vet as quickly as I would like is _very not fun
_


ian14 said:


> It's not scale rot. Scale rot always causes brown crinkled edges to the scales which isn't present here.


Yeah that's exactly the thing, it was my first thought in seeing anything wrong with scales but it doesn't match any images I've seen? Maybe the red dots? But I've seen that described as a normal characteristic of early scale rot AND an indicator of septicemia?? I've been trying to find visual references to any of these things but I'm struggling to find something that looks like this


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## ian14

You won't see red dots in scale rot, it's a fungal infection that eats away at the edges of the scale and is easily treated with medicated iodine.
I've been keeping and breeding snakes since 1988, and have never seen something like this.
I would get hold of the vet and reiterate that this appears to be a VERY odd presentation. Or find another vet.
Make sure that whoever you see is actually experienced in reptile medicine.
As I said before, at first look, it seemed to be normal scale colouring, until you zoom in and see the edges where scales appear to have been torn away.
Just one other thought.
The person you got him from, did they "help" to remove unshed skin?


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## ian14

As a precaution, it might be worth replacing the substrate with a few layers of kitchen towel until you have had a vets exam.


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## ian14

Actually here's another out there idea.
Have you asked the previous owner if he has always looked like this?
Is this possibly a partially scaleless hognose??


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## AerisFelidae

ian14 said:


> You won't see red dots in scale rot, it's a fungal infection that eats away at the edges of the scale and is easily treated with medicated iodine.
> I've been keeping and breeding snakes since 1988, and have never seen something like this.
> I would get hold of the vet and reiterate that this appears to be a VERY odd presentation. Or find another vet.
> Make sure that whoever you see is actually experienced in reptile medicine.
> As I said before, at first look, it seemed to be normal scale colouring, until you zoom in and see the edges where scales appear to have been torn away.
> Just one other thought.
> The person you got him from, did they "help" to remove unshed skin?


The vet I'm in communication with is the only vet that treats snakes within a managable distance, hence the wait. He books up very fast.

The previous owners never mentioned helping him to shed, and didn't make any particular comment that he had a history of abnormal shedding. They were very forthcoming with all other info about him and I feel like they would have mentioned if he was partly scaleless. 

I don't have contact with them anymore as it was a "friend of a friend" situation, but they knew I haven't kept any kind of reptile before - he was given up because of circumstance as opposed to choice, and all kit was provided in the hopes of maybe giving a newbie a good start as well as ensuring the snake went to a good home. I do think if he was in some way unusual like that or in need of special care they would have taken more care to give him to someone with more experience.


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## Malc

Thanks for the info. My only comment other than the heat source should be thermostatically controlled, which you are addressing, is that the lamp is unguarded. I don't keep this species, and the matter you are questioning doesn't look like a burn as its too uniform and isn't consistent with a burn, but I would still place a guard around the lamp if there is a risk the snake may come into contact with it.

Can you get any better close up images of the scales that are in high resolution and sharp focus - to me it looks as if it's lacking pigment rather than torn...


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## AerisFelidae

Malc said:


> Thanks for the info. My only comment other than the heat source should be thermostatically controlled, which you are addressing, is that the lamp is unguarded. I don't keep this species, and the matter you are questioning doesn't look like a burn as its too uniform and isn't consistent with a burn, but I would still place a guard around the lamp if there is a risk the snake may come into contact with it.
> 
> Can you get any better close up images of the scales that are in high resolution and sharp focus - to me it looks as if it's lacking pigment rather than torn...


These are the best I can get for the moment, some areas are clearer than others due to movement - I apologize. I'm starting to wonder how much of a risk it is to try handling him without him having taken feed because I don't want to be stressing him out but also it's the likely root of a lot of the issues here (regarding difficulties cleaning and difficulties getting better photos)


































For the moment what I've done is messaged the vet again expressing my concerns and checking if there's any way I could be seen more urgently. I'm also considering removing the substrate gradually as he travels his viv and replacing it with paper towels - I know they like to burrow but if theres any possibility that it's bacterial, that may be safer while I wait on the vet?

Please let me know if that's a terrible idea, I'm so so grateful for your help so far, this is scary situation for as I want the best for Harvey and this could either be horrible or absolutely nothing depending on who I'm talking to at the time. Having to wait over a week for a professional to get a definitive answer, and feeling unable to do a whole lot myself in the meantime feels awful.


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## ian14

Something is very wrong.
The blood splatters among the removed scales is evident of that.
Please remove ALL of the substrate immediately.
For no other reason than to prevent discomfort.
Have you emailed these photos to the vet?
I would also suggest seeking an appointment from a different vet.
If the vet you first spoke to is treating this as routine, then that vet is clueless.


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## AerisFelidae

I don't think it's blood splatter- Discolouration of concern maybe- But it's neither a surface injury or blood sitting on the surface, and there's no visible blood around the viv, which I would expect to see if he was bleeding so much and so often.
And while there are greyed out scales, I don't see any missing?

The vet has been emailed the photos from the original post, they're the only exotic vet in the area and they're very well reputed - so I really don't know what to think right now as they're working from the same pictures?


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## Shellsfeathers&fur

Whereabouts are you in case we can recommend a vet?


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## AerisFelidae

Shellsfeathers&fur said:


> Whereabouts are you in case we can recommend a vet?


Ireland. The vet I'm waiting to see is the one that every reptile owner plus my own regular vet has recommended to me and - probably more importantly, the only one within a do-able travel distance


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## Elly66

It looks like bleeding under the "skin".


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## ian14

AerisFelidae said:


> I don't think it's blood splatter- Discolouration of concern maybe- But it's neither a surface injury or blood sitting on the surface, and there's no visible blood around the viv, which I would expect to see if he was bleeding so much and so often.
> And while there are greyed out scales, I don't see any missing?
> 
> The vet has been emailed the photos from the original post, they're the only exotic vet in the area and they're very well reputed - so I really don't know what to think right now as they're working from the same pictures?


If there are no missing scales then it's the normal chequered ventral pattern.
But zooming in does show that the scales are missing.
It's odd.


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## Malc

ian14 said:


> If there are no missing scales then it's the normal chequered ventral pattern.
> But zooming in does show that the scales are missing.
> It's odd.


I appreciate the OP has tried to get better images, but to my untrained eye it looks more like the pigmentation of the belly scales is just lacking, and the scales are translucent. They don't appear to have been torn or raised. The way the pigmentation stops gives an impression that the scale maybe ripped, but closer inspection the scale seems uniform.

I would agree with Ian in that it may be worth a second opinion. And with the internet being so handy images can be sent to another vet who may be able to shed some light on this. I would also follow the advice of removing all the substrate at once, and replace it with layers of paper kitchen towel. If it is an open wound then any blood or such will be noticeable.


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## AerisFelidae

Malc said:


> I appreciate the OP has tried to get better images, but to my untrained eye it looks more like the pigmentation of the belly scales is just lacking, and the scales are translucent. They don't appear to have been torn or raised. The way the pigmentation stops gives an impression that the scale maybe ripped, but closer inspection the scale seems uniform.
> 
> I would agree with Ian in that it may be worth a second opinion. And with the internet being so handy images can be sent to another vet who may be able to shed some light on this. I would also follow the advice of removing all the substrate at once, and replace it with layers of paper kitchen towel. If it is an open wound then any blood or such will be noticeable.


While I can't get better photos, to my own eye the texture seems flush and there's no pitting, lifting, irregularity or jagginess in the texture. The light hits those areas as smoothly as any other belly scales! I've gotten fresh paper towels from the store as I didn't wanna rush using anything that had been in the kitchen, and will replace the substrate til the vet frees up!


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## LiasisUK

That's just what a normal albino hognose belly looks like


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## AerisFelidae

LiasisUK said:


> That's just what a normal albino hognose belly looks like


Yeah that's the thing, I had seen -some- pictures where they seem to have red dotting but they aren't very clear - and when I asked elsewhere to be sure it was "that's not normal that's scale rot" and when I'm asked more about scale rot it was "That's not scale rot it's septicemia" and now I'm here 😭😭

I've since been accepted into some Hognose groups on social media where I can see the markings much more clearly, someone even suggested that it could be that he has a bit of Toffee Morph in him because they get the same red markings a lot


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## LiasisUK

I used to breed them at my old work, as far as I can remember pretty much all of them had that. All the adults anyway.


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## ian14

AerisFelidae said:


> While I can't get better photos, to my own eye the texture seems flush and there's no pitting, lifting, irregularity or jagginess in the texture. The light hits those areas as smoothly as any other belly scales! I've gotten fresh paper towels from the store as I didn't wanna rush using anything that had been in the kitchen, and will replace the substrate til the vet frees up!


In which case cancel the vet. 
As said, perfectly normal colouring. Unfortunately the first photos made the scales look as if they were somehow detached.


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## loxocemus

its pigment.

rgds
ed


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## Natashafranquelo

I would get in touch with a vet just to be on the safe side I think he may have a viral infection that would most likely need antibiotics for which could explain why he isn't eating but they tend to go on hunger strikes also


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## ian14

Natashafranquelo said:


> I would get in touch with a vet just to be on the safe side I think he may have a viral infection that would most likely need antibiotics for which could explain why he isn't eating but they tend to go on hunger strikes also


It's been established that there is nothing wrong.
Not eating is because, over the winter, most Western hogs want to brumate. Its not a hunger strike. "Hunger strike" is keepers not understanding the natural behaviour of their snakes.


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