# Chicken Pellets for Roaches?



## titwillow (Dec 7, 2009)

Hi - I'm getting my very first batch of Dubia Roaches tomorrow for my 2 Cresties. I want to give them chicken food but I only have the layers pellets. Would it be okay to feed these or would I need to try & crush them? I tried earlier with a rolling pin - didn't even touch em they're so hard :bash:


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## ConnorTrussell (Apr 5, 2012)

They're good.

Try blending them, or putting them in a bag and hammering them/ smash them against a wall

Or- an alternative would be to soak then dry them


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

We've been through this is other threads. Basically, chicken food is for chickens.


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## MSID (May 13, 2010)

I have a feeling that chicken feed often contains high levels of copper, I think that if other livestock eats layers pellets it can cause problems with the nervous system because of this, not certain but think this is right.
I would use something else.


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## titwillow (Dec 7, 2009)

Spideypidey said:


> We've been through this is other threads. Basically, chicken food is for chickens.


Sorry - i'm new to forums. I will make sure I do a thorough search next time.:2thumb:


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## titwillow (Dec 7, 2009)

MSID said:


> I have a feeling that chicken feed often contains high levels of copper, I think that if other livestock eats layers pellets it can cause problems with the nervous system because of this, not certain but think this is right.
> I would use something else.


Yeah I've bought some cat biscuits which are easier to crunch down. Thanks


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Spideypidey said:


> We've been through this is other threads. Basically, chicken food is for chickens.


What would you feed them then as a dry food ?


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## SilverSky (Oct 2, 2010)

Dragon Farm said:


> What would you feed them then as a dry food ?


fish flakes/pellets, dog biscuits.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Dragon Farm said:


> What would you feed them then as a dry food ?


There are several online retailers selling live food who also sell food to feed them with. I've tried a few and they appear to be bran-based so I went back to bran. Hats off to those who make their own roach food out of this, that and the other but personally I think it complicates matters. You could gut-load with for example ProRep Bug Grub 24 hours prior to using as live food.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Spideypidey said:


> We've been through this is other threads. Basically, chicken food is for chickens.


Yes, we have been through this on other threads, and you dont seem to know a great deal about what your talking about. 

Chicken layer pellets are okay to use, and are far and away better than just using straight bran. Chicken pellets will have appropriate levels of calcium, and some other minerals like magnesium, zinc, etc that help with calcium absorption in animals. If you can find the ones made with alfalfa, that would be best. 

Please do not use cat, dog or fish food to feed your roaches or gut load with. The reason that chicken layer feed is recommended over those is that the level of protein is more appropriate. Chicken layer pellets are usually around 16-18% protein, while cat, dog, etc are up around the 30% mark. This is not good for the roaches and totally unnecessary. Chicken layer pellets also have appropriate levels of calcium and a good Ca ratio, unlike those other foods. Fish food especially has high levels of phosphorous that make the calcium that is present in it unavailable for absorption.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Yes we have been here before. But Jarich has said perfectly what I believe is correct, and has saved me the hassle of saying it myself.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Spideypidey said:


> There are several online retailers selling live food who also sell food to feed them with. I've tried a few and they appear to be bran-based so I went back to bran. Hats off to those who make their own roach food out of this, that and the other but personally I think it complicates matters. You could gut-load with for example ProRep Bug Grub 24 hours prior to using as live food.


 
This is hilarious. Chicken food is for chickens right and should not be fed to roaches ? Then you recommend Prorep bug grub as a gut load. This is made from nothing more than chicken mash and bran ! Its just a much more expensive way of feeding them chicken food.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Dragon Farm said:


> This is hilarious. Chicken food is for chickens right and should not be fed to roaches ? Then you recommend Prorep bug grub as a gut load. This is made from nothing more than chicken mash and bran ! Its just a much more expensive way of feeding them chicken food.


ProRep Bug Grub was an example of food for insects as stated in my post. But that's interesting: Do you have a link to that information so I can get more info?


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Its not something that they want to shout about or publisize. But I know the people who make the stuff, and have been told this. If you use chicken food and bran for you insects you will recognize bug grub from the look of it.

Its the same food they use for their own insect production, especially for crickets. Pro rep is a brand created by one of the big insect producers. I have been inside the insect sheds a few times, and seen the food mix they use.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Dragon Farm said:


> Its not something that they want to shout about or publisize. But I know the people who make the stuff, and have been told this. If you use chicken food and bran for you insects you will recognize bug grub from the look of it.
> 
> Its the same food they use for their own insect production, especially for crickets. Pro rep is a brand created by one of the big insect producers. I have been inside the insect sheds a few times, and seen the food mix they use.


So therefore you cannot verify that what you say is true and that's the way internet fallacies start. I have some in the cupboard right now and it doesn't look like crushed chicken pellets to me and the feel of it is more crushed biscuits and cereal while the colour is akin to rich tea biscuits.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

i know somebody who works at the business where the stuff is made, and still you think this is an internet fallacy in the making ?

Do I need to explain why such a company would not want to say add 1 cup of chicken mash to 1 cup of bran, and 'voila' you have bug grub at 1/20th of the price of this product in the shops !

I don't know the exact ratio, but that is what it is.

EDIT rememeber by the way that chicken mash is basically cereals wkith added soya for extra protein. So it is not surprizing bug grub looks like cereals.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Dragon Farm said:


> i know somebody who works at the business where the stuff is made, and still you think this is an internet fallacy in the making ?
> 
> Do I need to explain why such a company would not want to say add 1 cup of chicken mash to 1 cup of bran, and 'voila' you have bug grub at 1/20th of the price of this product in the shops !
> 
> ...


But you haven't proved it and it doesn't look like chicken food to me and I do know what chicken pellets look like.


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## SilverSky (Oct 2, 2010)

jarich said:


> Please do not use cat, dog or fish food to feed your roaches or gut load with. The reason that chicken layer feed is recommended over those is that the level of protein is more appropriate. Chicken layer pellets are usually around 16-18% protein, while cat, dog, etc are up around the 30% mark. This is not good for the roaches and totally unnecessary. Chicken layer pellets also have appropriate levels of calcium and a good Ca ratio, unlike those other foods. Fish food especially has high levels of phosphorous that make the calcium that is present in it unavailable for absorption.


there's nothing wrong with using fish or dog food as part of a varied diet for roaches, alongside the usual veg, fruit etc. mine get a bit of whatevers going, if i cook carrots, they get carrots, if i have an apple, they get the core, and so on, they always get a good variety of foods, and certainly breed well for it!


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

SilverSky said:


> there's nothing wrong with using fish or dog food as part of a varied diet for roaches, alongside the usual veg, fruit etc. mine get a bit of whatevers going, if i cook carrots, they get carrots, if i have an apple, they get the core, and so on, they always get a good variety of foods, and certainly breed well for it!


My problem is not that keepers feed things like dog or cat food or even chicken food although it does contain grit, good luck to them. But I think dry food for roaches is over complicated and there is nothing really at all wrong with common wheat bran as an everyday food which can be had in most supermarkets for under a pound for 500g (Tesco, 78p). If more nutrients such as calcium is desired then those roaches which are to be live food can be separated and gut-loaded.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Spideypidey said:


> But you haven't proved it and it doesn't look like chicken food to me and I do know what chicken pellets look like.


You want a signed letter from the owner of the business or something as proof ?????

I use chicken MASH and pellets all the time, and it looks just like chicken mash mixed with bran to me (like I am told). 

You said it looks like cereals (because it is made from cereals) , and you recommended it despite the fact that you said chicken food which is also made from cereals is bad. 

What is the difference then between 'Bug grub' and chicken food ?


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

SilverSky said:


> there's nothing wrong with using fish or dog food as part of a varied diet for roaches, alongside the usual veg, fruit etc. mine get a bit of whatevers going, if i cook carrots, they get carrots, if i have an apple, they get the core, and so on, they always get a good variety of foods, and certainly breed well for it!


I would disagree, and Ive just given you a list of reasons why thats not true. What you are saying is sort of like saying there is nothing wrong with eating your shoe as long as its only every once in awhile. Im not saying it is going to kill them or anything like that obviously, but since there are healthier options which are even cheaper, why bother to instruct people to use fish and dog foods? These are roaches, and much like humans, they _can_ subsist on just about anything. You dont see a lot of parenting guides suggesting McDonalds though, nor, in my opinion, should you see a forum promoting dog, fish or cat food as appropriate feeds. You'll notice this thread is in the FEEDER section, so the idea is to suggest what is going to give the best nutrition for the reptile, amphibian, etc. that will eat it. If you wouldnt suggest it be fed directly to the reptile, amphibian, etc, then its not wise to suggest it be fed to the feeder. 

Spidey, youre right, it doesnt have to be that complicated, but again it doesnt have to be the most simplistic thing in the world either. Do you find mixing four or five ingredients together that difficult? The best care of an animal should not be based solely on whats the absolute simplest thing for the keeper anyway, especially if it potentially sacrifices the health of the animal. 

I have to say Im always confused by why this is an argument. if you feed them, well thats your choice, but why promote it and argue that its a good thing to others? Its obviously not the healthiest choice, so why argue?


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

jarich said:


> Spidey, youre right, it doesnt have to be that complicated, but again it doesnt have to be the most simplistic thing in the world either. Do you find mixing four or five ingredients together that difficult? The best care of an animal should not be based solely on whats the absolute simplest thing for the keeper anyway, especially if it potentially sacrifices the health of the animal.


That depends on one's individual situation: I don't have a dog or a cat and I don't have chickens. So if I were to feed my roaches that food then I would have to buy it in just for the roaches. I also keep my colony very small by culling simply because I don't need a lot of roaches so that means a lot of waste if I added other foods.

But at the end of the day my roaches are healthy on just wheat bran, veg and fruit so I don't see the point of complicating it by adding other ingredients.

As I said previously there is nothing wrong with making up a roach food/chow but I think it's an unnecessary expense.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Spideypidey said:


> That depends on one's individual situation: I don't have a dog or a cat and I don't have chickens. So if I were to feed my roaches that food then I would have to buy it in just for the roaches. I also keep my colony very small by culling simply because I don't need a lot of roaches so that means a lot of waste if I added other foods.
> 
> But at the end of the day my roaches are healthy on just wheat bran, veg and fruit so I don't see the point of complicating it by adding other ingredients.
> 
> As I said previously there is nothing wrong with making up a roach food/chow but I think it's an unnecessary expense.


Again, the name of the section is Feeder, not Invertebrates. We are aiming for the healthiest feeder to give our animals to eat, and generally on this site that means for reptiles and amphibians. Since Ts dont need calcium, your dry diet isnt as essential. For a reptile or amphibian, it is, so there are ways of adapting what you have to make it healthier for them. It doesnt waste anymore food to add better nutrition, since its dry food and it basically lasts forever.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Spideypidey said:


> That depends on one's individual situation: I don't have a dog or a cat and I don't have chickens. So if I were to feed my roaches that food then I would have to buy it in just for the roaches. I also keep my colony very small by culling simply because I don't need a lot of roaches so that means a lot of waste if I added other foods.
> 
> But at the end of the day my roaches are healthy on just wheat bran, veg and fruit so I don't see the point of complicating it by adding other ingredients.
> 
> As I said previously there is nothing wrong with making up a roach food/chow but I think it's an unnecessary expense.


But you are buying in wheat bran just for the roaches ? As Jarich said if these are just food for spiders then fine. But I would be worried if these were food for reptiles


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Dragon Farm said:


> But you are buying in wheat bran just for the roaches ? As Jarich said if these are just food for spiders then fine. But I would be worried if these were food for reptiles


Yes but in smaller quantities, i.e. 500g. If we look at chicken pellets for example the smallest quantity I can find if we ignore 500g packs on ebay which are priced way over the odds is 5kg (amazon.co.uk). Roaches don't eat very much and a 5KG pack will last way beyond the use-by date.

What we are essentially talking about here is gut-loading food as an everyday food for roaches which roaches don't need. It's a simple matter to separate those roaches which are going to be used as food and gut-load them 24 hours prior to using as live food. There is a plethora of gut loading food for insects available commercially.

In reply to Jarich, well, in that case perhaps there should be an exodus of Tarantula keepers and this forum confined to Reptile and Amphibian keepers? The reality is however that most Tarantula keepers keep much the same feeder insects as Reptile and Amphibian keepers and it is something of an insult to even suggest that they have nothing to contribute. The other reality is that Tarantulas are far more difficult to feed than both Reptiles and Amphibians!


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

How on earth did you get that I said T keepers had nothing to contribute? I said nothing of the sort. I did say that the reduced need for calcium rich feeders made the dry diet of said feeders easier for T keepers, but that is all. 

As for gut loading versus everyday diet, you're making no sense. A dry diet that is good for gut loading, and cheaper than commercial gut loads, can be used every day. Since the nutrition from gut loading continues to increase up to around the third day, then why not just feed them this good dry diet continuously? It's inexpensive and then there is no need to spend the time separating, keeping a separate tub, etc. 

As for your comment about chicken feed being beyond it's "use by" date, what are you basing that on? I've never actually looked but I would wager the use by date on dry chicken feed is incredibly far from the date of purchase. Not would I probably care that much if dry food was past it's date. Would you stop using your wheat bran if it was past it's use by date? 

You pick the strangest things to argue about.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

jarich said:


> How on earth did you get that I said T keepers had nothing to contribute? I said nothing of the sort. I did say that the reduced need for calcium rich feeders made the dry diet of said feeders easier for T keepers, but that is all.
> 
> As for gut loading versus everyday diet, you're making no sense. A dry diet that is good for gut loading, and cheaper than commercial gut loads, can be used every day. Since the nutrition from gut loading continues to increase up to around the third day, then why not just feed them this good dry diet continuously? It's inexpensive and then there is no need to spend the time separating, keeping a separate tub, etc.
> 
> ...


I don't think I need to re-post what I have already posted. Go back and read it. But as the old saying goes, can't teach anyone who already knows everything.

If you lived in United Kingdom you would know what a use-by date is.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

When it comes to use by dates and say chicken feed, that I think would be because the addeed vitamins could only be guaranteed up to a certain point. 

I lived in the UK for the first 35 years of my life, and I learnt to ignore most use by dates.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Spideypidey said:


> I don't think I need to re-post what I have already posted. Go back and read it. But as the old saying goes, can't teach anyone who already knows everything.
> 
> If you lived in United Kingdom you would know what a use-by date is.


I did go back and reread what I posted, just to make sure I wasnt leaving room for misinterpretation. What I said was, "Since Ts dont need calcium, your dry diet isnt as essential". In context, that was me saying that a dry diet is easier to make up for Ts which have a very low calcium requirement, while it is more complex for those keeping vertebrates. Nowhere in there did I state that T keepers had nothing to contribute and I cant understand how you would interpret it that way. I think however, that the old saying you mentioned might apply more aptly to yourself. Another would be, "it takes two to tango". If we argue so often Spidey, you might consider that it is not me who thinks they know it all. 

As for the use by date, I admit that on further research it is not as far as I thought it would be. Generally they are listed at about 6 months to a year from the date of production. My apologies for making it seem like it was longer than that. A 5kg bag for many people might not be consumed within that amount of time. However, there are numerous places that sell it in smaller quantities in the UK, like those found here in quantities of 300 g, 2 kg, 4 kg, etc.

Chicken Layers Pellets: Pet Supplies | eBay

The internet makes our job as keepers so much easier these days.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

jarich said:


> I did go back and reread what I posted, just to make sure I wasnt leaving room for misinterpretation. What I said was, "Since Ts dont need calcium, your dry diet isnt as essential".


Roaches don't need Calcium either so why do you advocate feeding them an everyday diet which has a high percentage of Calcium? Really, either you're not reading my posts or you do not understand them.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Just can't let it go eh?  

Because of the reason I stated above, which is that there is then no need to separate them into a separate tub for gut loading. Use that everyday and they are all gut loaded and ready to go. Plus, as I explained above, thru continue to get more nutritious up to sound 72 hours after gut loading. Simpler, and no more expensive.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

jarich said:


> Just can't let it go eh?
> 
> Use that everyday and they are all gut loaded and ready to go.


That's reasonable if all of them are going to be used as live food all at the same time. The other point is of course that if we feed them high doses of Calcium and other nutrients every day then we are slowly poisoning them and what we are essentially feeding to our reptiles is sick and dying roaches which also have a bearing on reproduction.

The whole idea of gut-loading is to have the more nutritional food in their gut when they are eaten and not an attempt to make the whole roach more nutritional. That appears to fly over your head.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Now, now, no reason to get testy. :lol2:

I dont think you have studied the effects of minerals on roaches much if thats what you think. People often assume that because its a problem for crickets that it must also be for roaches, but there is no evidence to support this. Even conjecturally, I feed mine a high calcium diet and my roaches breed prolifically and appear perfectly healthy. 

It obviously doesnt fly over my head, and on the contrary, the point is to make the roach as nutritional as possible. This is accomplished by gut loading for days, not just 24 hours. Their nutritional value continues to increase up to about 4 days and then plateaus. Gut loading for 24 hours is usually the _minimum_ that is recommended.


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## mr stroudy (Mar 11, 2008)

actually you are all wrong chicken food cat and dog food will actually kill them and fish food can actually mutate them.

i have been studying roaches over a very long period of time and have found over this period of 2 days they seem to survive and breed very well with just having saw dust.

i hope this helps and if for any reason my care advice dont work you can alway purchase more roaches from me on the link below :flrt:


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

jarich said:


> the point is to make the roach as nutritional as possible.


No, the whole point of gut-loading is that the food is in their gut when they are eaten. That's why it's called gut-loading. Conversely, if they eat the food then it's in their gut and they have been gut-loaded.


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## popitgoes (Oct 24, 2010)

titwillow said:


> Hi - I'm getting my very first batch of Dubia Roaches tomorrow for my 2 Cresties. I want to give them chicken food but I only have the layers pellets. Would it be okay to feed these or would I need to try & crush them? I tried earlier with a rolling pin - didn't even touch em they're so hard :bash:


these would be fine ground would be better but i cant see them having a problem with eating them without been ground up


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Spideypidey said:


> No, the whole point of gut-loading is that the food is in their gut when they are eaten. That's why it's called gut-loading. Conversely, if they eat the food then it's in their gut and they have been gut-loaded.


Once again you seem to be understanding just part of the story. While what is in their gut does increase their nutritional value, studies show that feeding them this high nutrition diet increases their nutritional value on top of what is just in their gut at the time. See Mark Finke's work on feeding high nutrition diets. He has a couple articles where he talks about it.


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