# The Gas Chamber



## naython J

i have seen mention of a gas chamber for euthanasing rats and mice as the most humane way to so.

my question is how do you actually create or where do u buy one of these chambers from?

i am going to be over run my babies soon and need to know urgently

please!!!!


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## coprex

naython J said:


> i have seen mention of a gas chamber for euthanasing rats and mice as the most humane way to so.
> 
> my question is how do you actually create or where do u buy one of these chambers from?
> 
> i am going to be over run my babies soon and need to know urgently
> 
> please!!!!



I believe they're essentially chambers where air is replaced by carbon dioxide or monoxide, it equals to asphyxiating them


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## Erinaceinae

my mum puts rodents in tupperwares with a hole drilled into the side and a tube carrying gas in from a gas machine to euthanize and anesthetize stuff at work. (shes a vet_
x


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## saxon

You can buy commercial chambers but they are very expensive.

Most people just make one they are very easy to make.

Search for CO2 chamber on here and it will come up with thread!!!!

Here's the link....
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/feeder/128997-step-step-guide-making-c02.html


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## Meko

just pick up an old Sodastream, stick the mice in the bottle, give it a blast and off you go.


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## naython J

cheers guys looks like a trip to the diy is in order then


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## derek n

How much would it cost to make one?


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## bbav

derek n said:


> How much would it cost to make one?


 tub = about £3 pound stretchers 
tubes = £3 B&Q 
jubilee clips £2 B&Q
glue/sealant £2 B&Q
Gas = £11 halfords 
Total about £21


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## chris1978

Ive been using this method to euthanase mice and multi-mammates for my snakes for while now. 
I simply put about 20 in to a 8 litre tupperware container, mix baking soda and white vinegar in a sealed freezer bag which produces CO2 gas running a hose from the bag through a opening in the top of the container. The gas euthanases about 20 mice in approx 3-4 minutes. 
This is a big money saver as the cost of euthanasing up to about 120 mice works out to around £10. 
By the way if anyone has a simpler way of doing this rather than making the gas with vinegar and baking powder let me know.


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## naython J

cover the bottom of the bottle with layers of eggshell pieces, or you can use bits of marble or limestone pieces. Then just fill the bottle with three-fourths full of vinegar.

id reccommend connecting the hose straight away so that all co2 is used and a constand lvl


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## Ssthisto

chris1978 said:


> By the way if anyone has a simpler way of doing this rather than making the gas with vinegar and baking powder let me know.


Buy a CO2 canister from a welding supply shop.

Unfortunately the vinegar-and-baking-powder method does not give you any control over the concentration of gas, so you cannot ensure that you have the right dosage of gas to first anaesthetise then kill the rodents and MAY wind up just outright suffocating them.


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## slang

I do not have experience with both (i have only ever used a gas bottle) so i could be wrong but... 
For the animals but also for your on safety it would seem like a good idea to be able to regulate the amount of CO2 that is released. Worth the small investment of getting a CO2 bottle and regulator.


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## chris1978

So far the vinegar/baking powder method has worked well for me, judging from the way the mice react it definately euthanases them rather than suffocates them as they display the expected symptoms of slightly more rapid breathing followed by going to sleep. 
The canister idea sounds like a better idea, how do you know when you've added enough gas or do you simply add it untill the mice start to go to sleep?


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## Natrix

chris1978 said:


> So far the vinegar/baking powder method has worked well for me, judging from the way the mice react it definately euthanases them rather than suffocates them as they display the expected symptoms of slightly more rapid breathing followed by going to sleep.
> The canister idea sounds like a better idea, how do you know when you've added enough gas or do you simply add it untill the mice start to go to sleep?


It is illegal for laboratories to use this method due to the lack of control over the quality of the gas produced and becuase the vinegar fumes mixed with the CO2 burns the eyes and nose membranes of the animal before it dies. 
While this law does not apply to the home DIY slaughter of rodents, it is worth thinking about the potential of this method to cause suffering and the potential for a group like the RSPCA to claim you are practicing animal cruelty. 
It's so much easier and cleaner to use a bottle of CO2, plus one bottle kill hundreds of mice, I just don't see why anyone would bother mixing chemicals. 

Natrix


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## chris1978

How do you know when to stop adding the gas from a bottle?
Do you simply judge from the reaction of the rodents or is their a set amount that you add using a regulator?
Any info would be much appreciated, the last thing i want to do is cause the animals suffering, that is why i use this method as i couldnt bring myself to break their necks like many people do in case i just injured the animal rather than killing it.


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## ghostcornsnake

now in the future i am considering breeding mice now and then to save money

now i have an idea

if u did the same as the other person did but instead of using baking powder u used sugar yeast and warm watter although it would take 30 mins for the gas to slowly build up it would not cause pain as it is slow and it would put them to sleep first just a thought.


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## Ssthisto

To be honest, you're more likely at that point for the rodents in the tub to *asphyxiate themselves* due to the carbon dioxide they're exhaling - and that IS a stressful and too-slow method.

I have been giving Argon a try, based on its success with poultry (who do not hesitate to voluntarily enter a chamber filled with inert gas like argon or nitrogen to obtain food - but they DO hesitate to enter a chamber filled with carbon dioxide, which implies they don't like something about it). The idea is that although the presence of excessive carbon dioxide may well cause stress to the rodent, the presence of an inert gas just replaces the available oxygen.


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## Alex

Anybody here breeding mice for sale in bedfordshire area?


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## ghostcornsnake

yes although slow it is painless as posible because it slowley builds up in co2 cousing them to sleep then it gets higher and higher to cause death.


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## BenjaminBoaz

chris1978 said:


> How do you know when to stop adding the gas from a bottle?
> Do you simply judge from the reaction of the rodents or is their a set amount that you add using a regulator?
> Any info would be much appreciated, the last thing i want to do is cause the animals suffering, that is why i use this method as i couldnt bring myself to break their necks like many people do in case i just injured the animal rather than killing it.


you turn gas on to
A slow flow co2 goes into tub of rodents and
Then out the outlet tube which is fed into a container of water. When you see rats not breathing anymore leave for a minute extra. Dead.

What is the legal way of putting them down that businesses use? I've not heard of argon use is that easily avalible? I'd like to put some down quickly and correctly. Are there units that business buy? Any links to web sites? Do you need a leicence etc.


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## BenjaminBoaz

just been Reading through another thread about this subject and they mention using the sip welding co2 canister from halfords for £11.99 I noticed that they sell in the same size a sip welding co2/argon mix for £9.99 guess this is just as good and £2 cheeper per bottle.


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## Alex

Just an idea (Not sure if it works) that was going through my mind. if you put the mice in a tupperware box, then the tupperware box into the freezer, this would slow their heart rate down till it stopped?.

BECAUSE i know this method works for putting terrapins humanely to sleep.


Anyways t'was just an idea.


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## Ssthisto

First and foremost: Asphyxiating rodents by introducing CO2 *too slowly* will cause more stress than introducing exactly the right percentages at the right time. It will not cause anaesthesia and if it causes death at all (and it won't always) then it will be a prolonged one. 

Second: No, putting mice into the freezer, particularly once they have fur, is not a humane or acceptable way to euthanise them. Most animals do not have the same hypothermia reaction to extreme cold that humans do (most likely because of their coating of fur) - their extremities freeze before they have lost consciousness.

Third: Putting a terrapin into the freezer isn't exactly humane either.


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## Alex

Firstly It was a question, didnt say it happened, just wanted an answer why this wasnt practised

Secondly Terrapins that have limbs missing / diseased are euthenased in the freezer (Widely documentated in specialist terrapin books (how would else would you euthenase a dying terrapin?)


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## Ssthisto

You'd correctly euthanase terrapins by using the correct solutions of ketamine to sedate them, phenobarbitone to render them unconscious/dying then mechanically pithing them to destroy the brain.

That's as per:
British Chelonia Group: Euthanasia of Chelonians


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## Alex

Theyres obviously a more humane method, than that explained in many Chelonian books, The published material should be re-revised to put the info you have shown me in the books.

As i said firstly, i have read about the practice of terrapins being terminated by the freezer method, But why have the published that terrapins put in a tupperware box in shallow water, put into the freezer whilst the temperature slows the heartrate till the terrapin goes to sleep.
As i said about the mice , it was just a question, i have no previous knowledge on killing mice, i buy the mice frozen, and assumed maybe the mice were frozen on a large scale.
This forum is the only place to find answers to these questions, and was merely looking for an answer


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## BenjaminBoaz

Its been done before reptiles placed in freezers but I remember Reading they this isn't good. That they should also be brained as above said. It's cos reptiles can sometimes withstand freezing and brain needs to be killed. Mice shouldn't be as ice crystals form in blood and eyes and it's a horrible way to died. So to follow up what can we use to humainly put down numbers of rodents? What do companies use?is there something on a smaller scale? Is argon any better? Etc...


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## BenjaminBoaz

Chicks are blast frozen they freeze in seconds, I guess rodents are the same but not sure on that. Still I would like to be able to do it properly.


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## Ssthisto

Xenon said:


> i have no previous knowledge on killing mice, i buy the mice frozen, and assumed maybe the mice were frozen on a large scale.


The vast majority of the frozen rodents are likely to have been gas euthanised. It allows for mass euthanasia but also for picking individual rodents to pack them instead of having a mass of frozen-together mice that cannot be parcelled out into appropriate size bags.

I suspect that because CO2 is cheap to obtain it is more commonly used than Argon; Nitrogen would be preferable on an industrial scale but is harder to acquire as a private individual.


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## Khonsu

A couple of years back i & a mate were buying in bulk from a outfit around Gloucster, they supplied everything from frozen mice/chicks etc up to frozen rabbits/grouse & more, talking to the lass who made our deliveries she said all their stock were dealt with by blast freezing.


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## Ssthisto

Note that *blast freezing* is considerably more humane than slow freezing - because it freezes them very nearly instantly. 

However you cannot achieve this in a home freezer.


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## ghostcornsnake

is flash freezing when you put them in liquid nitro?


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## Alex

Ah, that must have been what i was thinking of, blast freezing. but as stated co2 would stop them being frozen in a clump, Actually thinking about it, it was blast freezing.

And also as said before suppliers will use co2 whilst its legal and cheap, to prevent unwanted costs, if Co2 is found dangerous, then Argon would a strong contender also nitrogen and of course blast freezing.

I already know that the cost per mouse is going up, instead of when i used to pay 27p per mouse theyre now 37p . that adds up to alot when you buy 100 at a time!.


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## BenjaminBoaz

its the cost of large rats thats hard going! takes forever to grow them up as well. the mix of argon and co2 at £2 cheaper gets my vote then by all acounts so far.


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## Alex

True!


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## Natrix

Ssthisto said:


> Note that *blast freezing* is considerably more humane than slow freezing - because it freezes them very nearly instantly.
> 
> However you cannot achieve this in a home freezer.


Blast freezing may be faster but it still isn't instant on larger animals. DEFRA accept blast freezing as an acceptable method of killing mouse and rat pinks but as far as I'm aware it is illegal to use this method on anything larger.
The recomended method for mass slaughter of rodents and chicks is CO2. Blast freezing is the recomended method of freezing the corpses.

Natrix


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## Myo

chris1978 said:


> Ive been using this method to euthanase mice and multi-mammates for my snakes for while now.
> I simply put about 20 in to a 8 litre tupperware container, mix baking soda and white vinegar in a sealed freezer bag which produces CO2 gas running a hose from the bag through a opening in the top of the container. The gas euthanases about 20 mice in approx 3-4 minutes.
> This is a big money saver as the cost of euthanasing up to about 120 mice works out to around £10.
> By the way if anyone has a simpler way of doing this rather than making the gas with vinegar and baking powder let me know.



I might feed the odd live pinky but you are the Hitler of mice! I just feel less cruel if the lizards are the ones doing the killing. Plus I hate touching dead rodents, that's why I started breeding them in the fiirst place


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## Myo

chris1978 said:


> Ive been using this method to euthanase mice and multi-mammates for my snakes for while now.
> I simply put about 20 in to a 8 litre tupperware container, mix baking soda and white vinegar in a sealed freezer bag which produces CO2 gas running a hose from the bag through a opening in the top of the container. The gas euthanases about 20 mice in approx 3-4 minutes.
> This is a big money saver as the cost of euthanasing up to about 120 mice works out to around £10.
> By the way if anyone has a simpler way of doing this rather than making the gas with vinegar and baking powder let me know.



I might feed the odd live pinky but you are the Hitler of mice! I just feel less cruel if the lizards are the ones doing the killing. Its certainly the cheapest and easiest way. Plus I hate touching dead rodents, that's why I started breeding them in the fiirst place


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## Ssthisto

Myo said:


> I might feed the odd live pinky but you are the Hitler of mice! I just feel less cruel if the lizards are the ones doing the killing. Its certainly the cheapest and easiest way. Plus I hate touching dead rodents, that's why I started breeding them in the fiirst place


That would be Godwin's law invoked there.

It is more humane *to the mice* to kill them in a humane fashion than it is to allow them to be killed by a lizard chomping on them. Sure, it's more icky for you - but you're not the one that's dying, are you?

CO2 or Argon euthanasia is painless and anaesthetic when done correctly.
If those live pinkies squeak when they're being bitten, it's pretty certain they are experiencing pain, stress and fear.


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## rockkeeper

apart from knocking rodent on head,

co2
*2kg Co2 Fire Extinguisher refill be cheap to*


very quick:gasp:


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## Myo

Ssthisto said:


> That would be Godwin's law invoked there.
> 
> It is more humane *to the mice* to kill them in a humane fashion than it is to allow them to be killed by a lizard chomping on them. Sure, it's more icky for you - but you're not the one that's dying, are you?
> 
> CO2 or Argon euthanasia is painless and anaesthetic when done correctly.
> If those live pinkies squeak when they're being bitten, it's pretty certain they are experiencing pain, stress and fear.


 
who is godwin to tell me what analogies I can and can't use?


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## Ssthisto

Godwin's Law is just a standard of internet communication, particularly newsgroup/board/forum communication. Sort of like a "troll" is. 

However, I really don't see how humanely killing animals instead of allowing them to be chewed on to death by a lizard (as opposed to the effects of constriction by a snake) is "like Hitler" - because although some of the means are similar (but not the same - none of us are using cyanide gas) the ends are not the same (my entire goal is humane death of feeders, not extermination at any cost).


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## Myo

Ssthisto said:


> Godwin's Law is just a standard of internet communication, particularly newsgroup/board/forum communication. Sort of like a "troll" is.
> 
> However, I really don't see how humanely killing animals instead of allowing them to be chewed on to death by a lizard (as opposed to the effects of constriction by a snake) is "like Hitler" - because although some of the means are similar (but not the same - none of us are using cyanide gas) the ends are not the same (my entire goal is humane death of feeders, not extermination at any cost).


 
well, give me a fight against a giant lizard over a spell in the gas chamber any day. but we've gone way off topic here(my fault, I know), I don't think this thread was supposed to be about the morals behind it all.

PS: I think if Godwin would have seen this thread he would have let it slip. Normal people don't just make gas chambers left right and centre.


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## Ssthisto

Normal people don't keep reptiles, either - if we're talking about "normal" as being synonymous with "the majority of the population". Keep in mind also that veterinarians use chambers - with a different type of gas - to euthanise small animals on occasion. And that, as I said, the CO2 chambers are used to effect a HUMANE death. Means AND End are justified.

I personally would rather go to the quiet sleepytime box and never wake up than be shoved into a cage with a giant lizard against which I have absolutely no chance of winning - or, as a pinky mouse is likely to see it, being put somewhere painfully bright and probably cold where I cannot find my siblings/mum until something grabs me and starts crushing me alive.


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## Myo

Ssthisto said:


> Normal people don't keep reptiles, either - if we're talking about "normal" as being synonymous with "the majority of the population". Keep in mind also that veterinarians use chambers - with a different type of gas - to euthanise small animals on occasion. And that, as I said, the CO2 chambers are used to effect a HUMANE death. Means AND End are justified.
> 
> I personally would rather go to the quiet sleepytime box and never wake up than be shoved into a cage with a giant lizard against which I have absolutely no chance of winning - or, as a pinky mouse is likely to see it, being put somewhere painfully bright and probably cold where I cannot find my siblings/mum until something grabs me and starts crushing me alive.


 
Fair play, MY conscience feels better if the lizards do it. Each to his own and what not... 

wouldn't you rather die fighting than sleeping though? i mean, I'd defo fancy a go at the giant lizard. every time it went for you you could dodge and throw substrate in it's mouth till it died of impaction.

:lol2:


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## Ssthisto

Myo said:


> Fair play, MY conscience feels better if the lizards do it. Each to his own and what not...
> 
> wouldn't you rather die fighting than sleeping though? i mean, I'd defo fancy a go at the giant lizard. every time it went for you you could dodge and throw substrate in it's mouth till it died of impaction.
> 
> :lol2:


Nope, I would far rather die peacefully in my sleep not knowing what was happening than fight a futile battle.

My life is about minimising pain, stress and fear - mine and everything else's.


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## Myo

Ssthisto said:


> Nope, I would far rather die peacefully in my sleep not knowing what was happening than fight a futile battle.
> 
> My life is about minimising pain, stress and fear - mine and everything else's.



Good for you, I'm just not that arsed, they're only mice.


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## Ssthisto

See, the "They're only [fill in the blank]" doesn't cut it with me.

So what if they're only mice? They're still just as much a living breathing thing as your lizards are, and they are no less capable of feeling pain or stress or fear. There are plenty of arguments that, because they have more higher-function brain structures, they are MORE capable of feeling pain, stress and fear. Doesn't it make sense to minimise that as much as possible?


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## bbav

Ssthisto said:


> See, the "They're only [fill in the blank]" doesn't cut it with me.
> 
> So what if they're only mice? They're still just as much a living breathing thing as your lizards are, and they are no less capable of feeling pain or stress or fear. There are plenty of arguments that, because they have more higher-function brain structures, they are MORE capable of feeling pain, stress and fear. Doesn't it make sense to minimise that as much as possible?


Agree totally Ssthisto even though they are feeders they still deserve to be treated kindly and not made to suffer.That is the main reason we breed our own rats,at least then we know they have had a nice life up to the point when they are humanly killed via a gas chamber.


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## Myo

Ssthisto said:


> See, the "They're only [fill in the blank]" doesn't cut it with me.
> 
> So what if they're only mice? They're still just as much a living breathing thing as your lizards are, and they are no less capable of feeling pain or stress or fear. There are plenty of arguments that, because they have more higher-function brain structures, they are MORE capable of feeling pain, stress and fear. Doesn't it make sense to minimise that as much as possible?



I can see where your coming from, but I won't be making one.


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## Sprocket

Anyone got plans for a human sized one, i feel like placing one of my work colleagues in it.


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## stubeanz

Ssthisto said:


> Nope, I would far rather die peacefully in my sleep not knowing what was happening than fight a futile battle.
> 
> My life is about minimising pain, stress and fear - mine and everything else's.


Totaly agree i would love to die peacefully and vertebrates can all feel pain so why shouldnt we let them have a peaceful death rather than a stressful, painful and frightening death?
any animal in captivity is there because we have put them there and so it should be our responsibility that they have a happy healthy life and a peaceful death wether thats feeder mice, pet goldfish, dog, lizard or bird all are our responsibility. 
stu


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## Twiglet

I've seen CO2 chambers in use on many occasions and (at risk of getting bitch slapped for saying this) I still prefer to cull mice and rats manually. yes, its horrible and requires you to be the one physically doing the killing but in some ways this isnt a bad thing... thankfully there are not many people out there that want to inflict suffering on an animal and if you are the one responsible for its death then your wanting to make sure its painless. CO2 chambers allow for the "out of sight, out of mind" thing and having the animal in your hand makes you think long and hard about HOW your going to kill it. i think people confuse "inhumane" with "looks horrible". 
the "big swing" technique looks horrible but if done properly is instant. all my mice and rats were used to being handled so being picked up was in no way stressfull, they weren't being chucked en mass into a plastic tub they had never been in before etc etc. I'm not saying CO2 is wrong at all... i just personally dont like it. i didnt feel i had enough control over the death of the animals. 
I tried the Vinegar baking soda technique once. its crap, uncontrollable and pointless. if you dont want to spend time and effort making it possible to regulate the gas output, either neck break by cervical dislocation or use the big swing. personal opinion only guys.

Kat


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