# More involved than looking at it



## mad martin

From all these threads, there is a trend amongst the newer guys. Assuming that venomous keeping is like non-venomous except for fangs. Well, I have a surprise for you. It isn't. Assumption is the mother of all f*** ups.
Venomous snakes know they are venomous, and will use it if they see fit. But venomous snakes have the same problems non-venomous snakes do. I stand by the belief, if you cannot restrain it, you shouldn't have it.

Venomous restraint
A mistake can cost you limb or life

Here are some restraint techniques

Vipers (In this case a Puff Adder). The three finger grip allows for the large fangs. Vipers can and will bite through the bottom jaw. A wrap-around grip here would be stupid and dangerous.


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## mad martin

Elapids (slower ones i.e. cobras). A two finger grip gives me better control of a smaller head.
Snouted Cobra


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## niliano_05

very good.


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## mad martin

Fast, large or nervous elapids (In this case a Black Mamba)

I prefer putting the snake in a container. If it decides to spaz out, it gives me more time to react. I also place the container on its side to make it more appealing for the mamba to go in.




















The next part is to get the snake in a position to grip it.
I start off by making use of a peculiar habit mambas have. When gripped or touched close to the head, mambas try and reverse. As you follow the pics you will see that I tong the snake roughly 10 inches from the head. Tight enough to slightly restrain the snake, but not so tight that the snake cannot reverse.




















The next part is gripping the snake.
As the snake reverses I slowly start applying pressure until the snake's head reaches the tongs. Just as the head is about to slip through, I apply enough pressure to stop it doing so. At this point I lift the snake up so the head just clears the container. NEVER TRY TO GRIP THE SNAKE IN THE CONTAINER! If the grip on the tongs fail, your hands are in a bad place.










Before applying my grip, I turn the tongs to slightly turn the snake's head. This makes it difficult for the snake to slip out before that critical grip.











When you have decided to go for the grip, do so without hesitation. You only have a few seconds and you want all the time you have to get a secure grip. A slip-up is a guaranteed bite, and very likely a full envenomation. 
My grip is a "wrap around" with my thumb on the snake's head. The reason for this is if the tongs were slightly wrong I can use my thumb to correct the tong position before I release it










The grip.
Mambas are strong. Really really strong. Its like holding a piece of spring steel. They rival many constrictors for pure strength. When you are holding the snake, make sure to keep your other hand holding the coils as far as can be allowed away from the snake's head. A simple tug and you will have a fang in your hand. Mambas bite anything coming close to their heads at this point, and as I said, they are very strong.










The release.
I release the snake back in the container, simply because it is going to freak out and I prefer it doing that inside the container. When I release the snake in to the container I kind of "wrap" the snake up so she cannot rebound back so quickly when she hits the bottom of the container, and with a downward flick I use gravity to help the snake to the bottom of the container. If she decides to flip out, I have more than enough time to step back and pick up any handling equipment I may need










Often they don't freak out, and I can simply hook the snake again and release it back into its cage (head directed toward the hide). Releasing a retrained mamba directly into its cage is a recipe for disaster. Some guys get away with it, but you won't forever



The most important point to remember with any venomous animals. Patience. Take your time and don't lose your cool. Concentrate and live a few days longer


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## abandonallhope

:notworthy: - excellent post. Just goes to show theres so much more involved with venomous keeping than any of us non-venomous keepers could imagine.


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## mad martin

Venomous snakes have the same problems non-venomous snakes do. Non- venomous snakes teach you the things you need to know to keep a snake happy. How to set up for a new animal, what it needs when things go wrong etc.
Its for these same reasons that you rarely find proper, well written care sheets for venomous reptiles. Because most guys that have thought it through, have learnt how to care for an animal. Their questions head more towards breeding etc. as opposed to "How do I set up for this snake?"

The one thing thing you must never lose sight of, is that they know they are venomous. And if they need to defend themselves they will. Even living in a cage for four months hasn't made me lose sight of what they are capable of when the need arises.

I saw in a thread here somewhere someone thinking that a Rhino Viper is a good beginner. It can be, but there are easier snakes. If you want to go Bitis, a Puff Adder is probably your best bet. But never forget that millions of years have gone into the strike these large Bitis are famous for. They do it without any significant change in behaviour, and if you are in range, they do not miss. And if they don't miss, you are in for a world of hurt. A doctor my mum works with reckons a Puff Adder bite victim is like looking at someone give birth continously for three weeks.

I will never stand in the way of someone wishing to keep venomous reptiles. But put some thought into your decision. Understand that the snake is the cheapest part of your endeavour. Understand that it is irresponsible to expect someone else to treat your animal because you f***ed up. Understand that it is irresponsible to expect someone else to forcefeed your animal because you are afraid of it. Understand that it doesn't matter how venomous a snake is, it is completely dependant on you for its survival.

Think, learn, ask.


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## chewy fyu

great post m8


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## stuartdouglas

Good post Martin, let's hope it gets through where it needs to..................:whistling2:


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## xxstaggyxx

That was a great read thank you for sharing


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## wildlifewarrior

Agreed it was very interesting and informative, i also think the photos helped a great deal aswell. :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


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## Genseric

Just scan the web for 'Viperlover's guide to handling hots (with Pics!)' :lol2:


Cornsnakes around the world will be crapping themselves with fear!!


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## ViperLover

*A thankyou to you guys.*

Some very useful handling tips there...Thankyou for the heads up.

I never imagined how complicated grabbing a venomous snake by the head is....But I was certainly unaware of the potential dangers.

Your posts were very handy, all of this I will learn in time hopefully..and without donating any limbs, or even worse...I'm not going to rush into things. Thanks Martin, and everybody else.


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## slippery42

stuartdouglas said:


> Good post Martin, let's hope it gets through where it needs to..................:whistling2:


It will not!:gasp:


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## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> But I was certainly unaware of the potential dangers.


you were unaware how dangerous putting your hand next to a venomous snake was?


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## paulrimmer69

agree with you there graeme, gota say though thats one of the best posts iv seen on here, always good for the newbies like myself to see how the more experienced keepers do things, thanks martin


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## mad martin

Its only a pleasure


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## ScottGB

There's some great tips. I had to assist feed a royal python before an thought I may have to come up with a way of dealing with the same problem with mangroves when I get one. Because i've heard they are supposed to be picky feeders. So that really helps with dealing them too. 

Best Regards


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## Gaboon

Great tips! I doubt I will ever need to use them but hard to find info from actual experience is always good. Thanks.


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## wildlifewarrior

Gaboon said:


> Great tips! I doubt I will ever need to use them but hard to find info from actual experience is always good. Thanks.


theres a old saying...cant fully remember it but think it goes like

"its better to have knowledge you will never need, than to need knowledge you havent got"


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## stuartdouglas

I prefer "good knowledge is like a gun, better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it"

for "gun" you can substitute "condom", "chocolate", "money" or anything pertinent to you


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## ViperLover

wildlifewarrior said:


> you were unaware how dangerous putting your hand next to a venomous snake was?


 
No...Ofcourse thats dangerous.

I meant, the dangers of them pulling and how strong they actually were.


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## SWMorelia

Great post Martin....


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## stuartdouglas

ViperLover said:


> I never imagined how complicated grabbing a venomous snake by the head is....*But I was certainly unaware of the potential dangers.*


seems to me that you were unaware of the potential dangers of grabbing a venomous snake by the head..............there is only one potential danger involved, surely that doesn't need elaborating upon?


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## ViperLover

stuartdouglas said:


> seems to me that you were unaware of the potential dangers of grabbing a venomous snake by the head..............there is only one potential danger involved, surely that doesn't need elaborating upon?


 
More to the under-estimation of the stregnths of different species.


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## mad martin

That's the point Viperlover.
A Puff Adder is one big ball of muscle. Inexperience will get you bit. A Mamba is like a piece of spring steel. Some venomous snakes certainly rival non-venomous species in strength. The only way you could learn this, is with practical experience


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## PDR

It is a very good post Martin. It also highlights the fact that “there is more than one way to skin a cat”. Handling techniques vary from one person to the next and you tend to find what works best for you. 
Looking at the photos it is evident that there are a number of things that I do differently. That is not to say that my techniques are any better or worse than Martins (or anyone else here). There is some flexibility so long as the procedure is carried safely.

To give an idea of some differences:

I only ever use a 2 finger hold for all of the snakes, the main reason for this is I do a lot of venom extractions and the forefinger on the top of the head (classic viper hold) can get in the way, certainly for the smaller snakes. I have even converted other experienced people to this technique.

Tongs/grabs. I consider these to be tools mainly for field use and I can’t remember the last time I used a pair within our Herpetarium. They also take a lot of practise to use correctly without injuring the snake or risking a bite to the handler. I tend to use a lot of trap boxes that can be closed off and the snake can be transported to the venom extraction room. Otherwise I will hook the snake out into a dustbin (with a twist lock lid) and move him the venom extraction room, remove the bin lid, tip the bin on its side and hook the snake out on to the mat and pin with either a hook or jigger.

Pining. I generally use a “jigger” to pin the snake’s head or neck (I don’t use the Midwest version as they are too narrow) and then, like Martin, allow snakes like cobras or mambas to reverse so that I can get a safe grip on the head. I normally pin snakes onto a foam camping mat and I will sometimes use the rubber grip of a snake hook to pin the head... but this can present problems doing this for the inexperienced. You need to keep the hook horizontal to the ground or the snake might be able to flip its head sideways and get free. You also need to consider the surface on which you do this technique. It works ok on the workbench or the floor but is not so good as a field technique in rocky or uneven ground. You also need to know exactly how much pressure to apply.

Letting go. This can be just as dangerous as catching the snakes. Generally I will re-pin the snake once I have extracted venom and then hook it back into its cage, vivarium, trap box or dustbin and take it back to the holding room. There are times when you need to let go unexpectedly and you need to do this in a deliberate and calculated manner. With big cobras etc. I will get low to the floor and holding the snakes body with my right hand throw the snake forwards away from me and then a split second later let go of the head with my left hand. The weight and momentum of the snake should safely take the snake away from your hand.

I’m able to use a hook equally well with both hands but I always consider my left hand to be the one that holds the snake’s head. Other people prefer to hold with their right hand.

I’m only just scratching the surface here, but I hope along with what Martin has said, that it goes to show that there is a hell of a lot more involved in keeping venomous than some “armchair experts” seem to think


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## Gaboon

wildlifewarrior said:


> theres a old saying...cant fully remember it but think it goes like
> 
> "its better to have knowledge you will never need, than to need knowledge you havent got"


Rings true!


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## mad martin

An excellent post PDR.
As you said, people do it differently. And, as you said, the point is that venomous keeping is a skill and takes enormous patience, risk and time to learn to do well. That was one of the many points of this thread.

Its a rare thing that I restrain snakes in a lab set up, so my techniques have been designed to suit me in fieldwork.




> Tongs/grabs. I consider these to be tools mainly for field use and I can’t remember the last time I used a pair within our Herpetarium. They also take a lot of practise to use correctly without injuring the snake or risking a bite to the handler. I tend to use a lot of trap boxes that can be closed off and the snake can be transported to the venom extraction room.


 
I spend most of my time in the field, and ony ever use tongs to restrain mambas, or get hold of an animal that is "entrenched".

And again, as you said, this is merely the scratch of a surface. So many different techniques and scenarios etc. come to play.


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## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> More to the under-estimation of the stregnths of different species.


This is the WHOLE reason why people have being telling you to start at the bottom...and prephaps the reason why when you get your first snake you will realise how daft the comment about a 12ft scrub python was yesterday.



stuartdouglas said:


> I prefer "good knowledge is like a gun, better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it"
> 
> for "gun" you can substitute "condom", "chocolate", "money" or anything pertinent to you


you cant realy teach that to kids.....gun creats drive bys,condoms creates underage sex,chocolate makes kids fat and money makes them spoilt brats



PDR said:


> It is a very good post Martin. It also highlights the fact that “there is more than one way to skin a cat”. Handling techniques vary from one person to the next and you tend to find what works best for you.
> Looking at the photos it is evident that there are a number of things that I do differently. That is not to say that my techniques are any better or worse than Martins (or anyone else here). There is some flexibility so long as the procedure is carried safely.
> 
> To give an idea of some differences:
> 
> I only ever use a 2 finger hold for all of the snakes, the main reason for this is I do a lot of venom extractions and the forefinger on the top of the head (classic viper hold) can get in the way, certainly for the smaller snakes. I have even converted other experienced people to this technique.
> 
> Tongs/grabs. I consider these to be tools mainly for field use and I can’t remember the last time I used a pair within our Herpetarium. They also take a lot of practise to use correctly without injuring the snake or risking a bite to the handler. I tend to use a lot of trap boxes that can be closed off and the snake can be transported to the venom extraction room. Otherwise I will hook the snake out into a dustbin (with a twist lock lid) and move him the venom extraction room, remove the bin lid, tip the bin on its side and hook the snake out on to the mat and pin with either a hook or jigger.
> 
> Pining. I generally use a “jigger” to pin the snake’s head or neck (I don’t use the Midwest version as they are too narrow) and then, like Martin, allow snakes like cobras or mambas to reverse so that I can get a safe grip on the head. I normally pin snakes onto a foam camping mat and I will sometimes use the rubber grip of a snake hook to pin the head... but this can present problems doing this for the inexperienced. You need to keep the hook horizontal to the ground or the snake might be able to flip its head sideways and get free. You also need to consider the surface on which you do this technique. It works ok on the workbench or the floor but is not so good as a field technique in rocky or uneven ground. You also need to know exactly how much pressure to apply.
> 
> Letting go. This can be just as dangerous as catching the snakes. Generally I will re-pin the snake once I have extracted venom and then hook it back into its cage, vivarium, trap box or dustbin and take it back to the holding room. There are times when you need to let go unexpectedly and you need to do this in a deliberate and calculated manner. With big cobras etc. I will get low to the floor and holding the snakes body with my right hand throw the snake forwards away from me and then a split second later let go of the head with my left hand. The weight and momentum of the snake should safely take the snake away from your hand.
> 
> I’m able to use a hook equally well with both hands but I always consider my left hand to be the one that holds the snake’s head. Other people prefer to hold with their right hand.
> 
> I’m only just scratching the surface here, but I hope along with what Martin has said, that it goes to show that there is a hell of a lot more involved in keeping venomous than some “armchair experts” seem to think


another informative and brillant post :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


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## Sid.lola

Most informative post I think I've ever seen in this section! Well done!


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## stuartdouglas

wildlifewarrior said:


> This is the WHOLE reason why people have being telling you to start at the bottom...and prephaps the reason why when you get your first snake you will realise how daft the comment about a 12ft scrub python was yesterday.
> 
> 
> *you cant realy teach that to kids.....gun creats drive bys,condoms creates underage sex,chocolate makes kids fat and money makes them spoilt brats*
> 
> 
> another informative and brillant post :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


Ok, substitute "education" for any of the words I used:2thumb:


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## wildlifewarrior

stuartdouglas said:


> Ok, substitute "education" for any of the words I used:2thumb:


kids find education boring:lol2:


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## stuartdouglas

bloody hell! some people are never happy!!!:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## wildlifewarrior

stuartdouglas said:


> bloody hell! some people are never happy!!!:Na_Na_Na_Na:


dont blame me....blame kids. :Na_Na_Na_Na:

i get it all the time when i am doing shows...why wont it bite you,whys it tame,how did you get it tame, why why why......


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## PDR

mad martin said:


> That's the point Viperlover.
> A Puff Adder is one big ball of muscle. Inexperience will get you bit. A Mamba is like a piece of spring steel. Some venomous snakes certainly rival non-venomous species in strength. The only way you could learn this, is with practical experience


That is so true, large puff adders are very strong... sometimes if you are holding them for a while (say for veterinary treatment) you can find your grip locking up and you then have to be very careful how you let go.
PS, sorry for a few typos in my last post... I was rushing. We have moved the entire collection into temporary accommodation this morning so it has been hectic here.


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## ViperLover

PDR said:


> That is so true, large puff adders are very strong... sometimes if you are holding them for a while (say for veterinary treatment) you can find your grip locking up and you then have to be very careful how you let go.
> PS, sorry for a few typos in my last post... I was rushing. We have moved the entire collection into temporary accommodation this morning so it has been hectic here.


 
Its going to take a heck of a long time to learn...But I'll eventually get there.

Thanks everybody.

PS...How are you supposed to safely learn how to pin a venomous snake without somebody who's experienced to guide you? Ive heard of this self-taught stuff....but I am not convinced it teaches you everything.

Not saying that I want to teach myself...Just curious.


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## mad martin

Mole Snakes (Pseudaspis cana). 
A 6 foot, miserable animal, with a bite that rivals a pit bull terrier. It has no neck, and is strong as all hell. Pin that thing and you can pin anything. If you make a mistake, at least you won't die.
As to the bite, well........ a large Carpet Python bite feels like a Corn Snake bite in comparison. It bites like a pig, clenching its jaw shut and ripping until it comes loose. There is no better teacher than an adult Mole Snake.


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## pythondave82

PDR said:


> I have even converted other experienced people to this technique.
> 
> 
> 
> I’m able to use a hook equally well with both hands but I always consider my left hand to be the one that holds the snake’s head. Other people prefer to hold with their right hand.


He converted me: victory: And I only use my left hand now, again, converted by Brian and Paul.

Dave


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## stuartdouglas

I seem to naturally pin with the right hand and hold with the left


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## exoticsadmirer

It's nice to read about people's hands on experience with venomous snakes and the different methods for the varying species. I mean you expect a constrictor to have lots of strength due to it's muscle size but unlike venomous they barely ever use it.


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## PDR

stuartdouglas said:


> I seem to naturally pin with the right hand and hold with the left


Same here, though I do have excellent dexterity with both hands.
For those that don’t know, the reasoning behind using the left hand to hold the snake is that most (right-handed) people have better dexterity with their right hand and therefore can do more delicate tasks such as removing brills (eye-scales)or force feeding ect. and if you are doing scale counts it leaves the right hand free to jot down figures.


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## SiUK

even though I am naturally right handed I tend to use my left hand to pin, because I find it easier to do what I have to with my right hand.


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## lizardloverrach

Great thread really interesting


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## allie turtle

a top read that thank you! a friend of mine live's in south africa as well and his mate run's a snake farm and he does Snake Handling Course!
and explane's the do's and don't
Facts About Snakes, Species, Characteristics, World's Deadliest Snakes


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## Rikki

stuartdouglas said:


> I seem to naturally pin with the right hand and hold with the left


Here's more support for the "right hand pin, left hand hold" technique! I find it much more comfortable having my "better" hand free. 

Another example of the typical three finger grip used on vipers. Though I prefer a two finger grip (similar to Martin's with the cobra) for smaller vipers.


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## Tehanu

We ought to have a poll on it!

I'm another right hander who pins with the right and holds with the left, for exactly the reasons Paul mentioned


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## terciopelo_dave

Fantastic thread Martin, many thanks.
Although if I may be so bold as to criticise, I'd question your choice of tongs. The tongs you use are too harsh in my opinion, regardless of how careful the operator is. Put your fingers in the grab and you'll see what I mean. I use the whitco tongs. I find you can still maintain a trustable grip on even the most flighty elapids, but the design of the grab head means that the snake's spine isn't at risk.
Just my two peneth.
Dave


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## PDR

Talking about tongs, I had a set of Midwest Gentle Giants go missing about two years ago. I’d been cursing people ever since I came back from holiday and noticed that they were on in their usual place in the rack. I thought someone may have borrowed them to retrieve something from a liquid nitrogen flask, shattered the plastic coating and not had the nerve to return them......:devil:
Anyhow, one of the contactors came to me yesterday and said “are these yours, they look like snake tongs”... “Yes, I lost those about 2 years ago, where did you find them”.... in the roof space he said.
I can only think that one of our maintenance guys had borrowed them and then forgot to bring them back.
I rarely use them, but that is not the point... they are mine and I hate it when people take things without asking. :bash:


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## ViperLover

terciopelo_dave said:


> Fantastic thread Martin, many thanks.
> Although if I may be so bold as to criticise, I'd question your choice of tongs. The tongs you use are too harsh in my opinion, regardless of how careful the operator is. Put your fingers in the grab and you'll see what I mean. I use the whitco tongs. I find you can still maintain a trustable grip on even the most flighty elapids, but the design of the grab head means that the snake's spine isn't at risk.
> Just my two peneth.
> Dave





PDR said:


> Talking about tongs, I had a set of Midwest Gentle Giants go missing about two years ago. I’d been cursing people ever since I came back from holiday and noticed that they were on in their usual place in the rack. I thought someone may have borrowed them to retrieve something from a liquid nitrogen flask, shattered the plastic coating and not had the nerve to return them......:devil:
> Anyhow, one of the contactors came to me yesterday and said “are these yours, they look like snake tongs”... “Yes, I lost those about 2 years ago, where did you find them”.... in the roof space he said.
> I can only think that one of our maintenance guys had borrowed them and then forgot to bring them back.
> I rarely use them, but that is not the point... they are mine and I hate it when people take things without asking. :bash:


 
Not to meantion, quite an expencive set?


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## terciopelo_dave

ViperLover said:


> Not to meantion, quite an expencive set?


 Cost should never be a consideration. I'm not a rich man but i'd always buy the best for my animals. I'd rather live on pot noodles and make sure my snakes are well cared for than eat well and make do with second best for the animals in my care.


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## ViperLover

terciopelo_dave said:


> Cost should never be a consideration. I'm not a rich man but i'd always buy the best for my animals. I'd rather live on pot noodles and make sure my snakes are well cared for than eat well and make do with second best for the animals in my care.


 
Very true, but if you pay good money for you're qquipment, then you would atleast like someone to ask to use it, as you know where it is and who is using it.


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## terciopelo_dave

There is no way I can answer that without causing an argument, suffice to say, your handling equipment should be with your hots at all times, and contractors should be near neither.


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## ViperLover

terciopelo_dave said:


> There is no way I can answer that without causing an argument, suffice to say, your handling equipment should be with your hots at all times, and contractors should be near neither.


 
Contracters should be nowhere near where the animals are kept...Assuming Paul's equipment is usually stored in the Herpetarium?


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## terciopelo_dave

I don't know paul, or where his equipment and animals are kept. However if I had contractors coming in, my animals and all necessary equipment would simultaneously be moving out for however long the work was taking place.


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## ViperLover

terciopelo_dave said:


> I don't know paul, or where his equipment and animals are kept. However if I had contractors coming in, my animals and all necessary equipment would simultaneously be moving out for however long the work was taking place.


 
I agree.

But if a contracter gets bitten by a potentially lethal species, then it serves him damn right for touching what doesn't belong to him.


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## terciopelo_dave

Unfortunately the law doesn't see it that way.


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## ViperLover

terciopelo_dave said:


> Unfortunately the law doesn't see it that way.


Yep. The handler/owner is liable for all public safety....and it comes out of the liability insurance, which in my opinion is wrong if the contracter purposely got bit through stupidity and selfishness. AND it creates a massive dent in the hobby. I highly doubt anyone other then Paul (God for bid it will never happen again) will be bitten at Pauls place, as the only person who handles the hots in there is him.


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## mad martin

> Fantastic thread Martin, many thanks.
> Although if I may be so bold as to criticise, I'd question your choice of tongs. The tongs you use are too harsh in my opinion, regardless of how careful the operator is. Put your fingers in the grab and you'll see what I mean. I use the whitco tongs. I find you can still maintain a trustable grip on even the most flighty elapids, but the design of the grab head means that the snake's spine isn't at risk.
> Just my two peneth.
> Dave


Critique is always welcome 
I have always put my finger in the tongs to test them.
Unfortunately, no offence intended, but the proof is in the pudding:
It is completely up to the handler, regardless of what tongs you use. I have caught 1000's of Mambas using tongs like that and never injured one. Mike Perry uses Pilstroms and has for years (from the mid 70's), and Mike uses them alot, venom extractor. And he has never hurt one's spine.
It comes down to how you learn. You learn a good grip and good technique with eggs. If you can pick one up and put it back down, you have a feather grip. 
Herpers have become lazy, and their equipment makes them lazier and lazier. Few guys still put in the hard yards to learn how to do it properly. All these gloves and things to keep you safe, instead of learning proper technique to keep you safe.


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## leecb0

i have a couple of pairs of Midwest GG 40" and 25" dont use them much but as for the coment Dave made about the Whitco tongs i had a pair a while back and they are almost the same as the normal snake tongs from Midwest which is what Martin is using so cant see the arguement there but as Martin says it all depends on the user not the tongs if you are adept like Martin is then there should be no injury to the animal.


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## ViperLover

Regardless...I highly doubt Martin will injur a snake using tongs, he's probably one of the most experienced people here and knows how to grip, and how much pressure to apply. - There is no arguement here whatsoever...Now if it were at a beginner keeper....I can quite easily see the point of view.


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## chondro13

How did i not see this post until now!? 

Great thread - this is the kind of thing people need to visually SEE before you quite grasp the 'reality' of keeping hots.

Brilliant - sticky?


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## smart1

top notch as always martin : victory:


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## PDR

Whoa, hang on guys don’t go jumping to conclusions.
The tongs went missing while I was away and they would have been loaned out to the person who left them in the roof space by another member of our Unit. The Herpetarium consists of 10 rooms. Most of the hooks and tongs are kept in the corridor. 
No one can enter the Herpetarium without a member of our venom Unit Staff. LSTM Maintenance Staff, Contractors, building inspectors ect. are not allowed to enter any snake holding room without myself or another member of our Unit. They are permitted to work in rooms that don’t hold snakes, but even then I will remain within the Herpetarium.
If Contractors need to work in a snake room I will move all the stock out and sign a form to say that it is now safe for them to work in that particular room. I always keep external doors locked and will lock internal doors when we have contractors on site.
As regards the monetary value, all the Midwest gear was very kindly donated by the company.... but I still don’t want to lose any of it.


----------



## ViperLover

PDR said:


> Whoa, hang on guys don’t go jumping to conclusions.
> The tongs went missing while I was away and they would have been loaned out to the person who left them in the roof space by another member of our Unit. The Herpetarium consists of 10 rooms. Most of the hooks and tongs are kept in the corridor.
> No one can enter the Herpetarium without a member of our venom Unit Staff. LSTM Maintenance Staff, Contractors, building inspectors ect. are not allowed to enter any snake holding room without myself or another member of our Unit. They are permitted to work in rooms that don’t hold snakes, but even then I will remain within the Herpetarium.
> If Contractors need to work in a snake room I will move all the stock out and sign a form to say that it is now safe for them to work in that particular room. I always keep external doors locked and will lock internal doors when we have contractors on site.
> As regards the monetary value, all the Midwest gear was very kindly donated by the company.... but I still don’t want to lose any of it.


 
Very good safety precautions.

I've been speaking to somebody who is currently doing a PhD in Herpetology, he said that one his friends have been in you're place and said everything is spot on.

What cages/rack brands do you use? Vision cages?


----------



## Aconite

Thanks Martin! You could post pics all day and I would never get bored!
So... hint hint... post more... please!


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## reef

Martin and PDR 
Great posts thank you , I don't presently keep DWA but am interested. Fantastic info and pics 
cheers


----------



## moodyblue1969

great thread,im not into hots but its nice to see what you guys have to deal with,it kinda puts a grotty non-dwa back into the bottom of the pecking order xx


----------



## leecb0

ViperLover said:


> Very good safety precautions.
> 
> I've been speaking to somebody who is currently doing a PhD in Herpetology


where is he studying?


----------



## ViperLover

leecb0 said:


> where is he studying?


 
Derby


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## leecb0

Really you say he is studying for a PhD in Herpetology in Derby????


----------



## ViperLover

leecb0 said:


> Really you say he is studying for a PhD in Herpetology in Derby????


 
He's doing it based on Amphibians..I'll ask him and let u know what hes studying. I was put incotact with him by someone on the forum.


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## reef

ViperLover said:


> He's doing it based on Amphibians..I'll ask him and let u know what hes studying. I was put incotact with him by someone on the forum.



Wot IS that smell :whistling2:


----------



## ViperLover

Not that it has anything to do with any of you (with respect, ofcourse), but to prove a point I will tell you.

Due to the lack of experience involved with reptiles at Derby University, he had to change his research project due to no suitable superviser.

He changed his whole project to research in Amphibians, as it was originally going to be on Venomous reptiles. He is being supervised by Dr. Graham Rowe and Dr. Karim Vahed for the Molecular Ecology of Amphibians.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

mad martin said:


> Critique is always welcome
> I have always put my finger in the tongs to test them.
> Unfortunately, no offence intended, but the proof is in the pudding:
> It is completely up to the handler, regardless of what tongs you use. I have caught 1000's of Mambas using tongs like that and never injured one. Mike Perry uses Pilstroms and has for years (from the mid 70's), and Mike uses them alot, venom extractor. And he has never hurt one's spine.
> It comes down to how you learn. You learn a good grip and good technique with eggs. If you can pick one up and put it back down, you have a feather grip.
> Herpers have become lazy, and their equipment makes them lazier and lazier. Few guys still put in the hard yards to learn how to do it properly. All these gloves and things to keep you safe, instead of learning proper technique to keep you safe.


 Indeed it is down to the handler, I couldn't agree more, and I also agree regarding the use of "snake proof" gloves.
I've used pilstroms and midwest standards without causing any (noticable) injury to snakes, however I've seen bruising on albino monocled cobras that resulted from being restrained using those types, and they were being handled by someone I know to be incredibly adept. The same snakes showed no such bruising when handled with whito or GG. Whilst I may have overstated the danger by saying you risk spinal damage, which someone of skill and experience would clearly not, I stand by my statement that SOME damage may be done, albeit limited to just bruising, which lets face it is difficult at best to see on a properly pigmented (i.e non-albino) snake.
I don't wish to sound like I'm claiming to know more about catching mambas than you, I obviously don't and nothing could be further from the truth. I just know what I've seen with my own 2 eyes, and that the handler was skilled, not a heavy-handed chump.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

PDR said:


> Whoa, hang on guys don’t go jumping to conclusions.
> The tongs went missing while I was away and they would have been loaned out to the person who left them in the roof space by another member of our Unit. The Herpetarium consists of 10 rooms. Most of the hooks and tongs are kept in the corridor.
> No one can enter the Herpetarium without a member of our venom Unit Staff. LSTM Maintenance Staff, Contractors, building inspectors ect. are not allowed to enter any snake holding room without myself or another member of our Unit. They are permitted to work in rooms that don’t hold snakes, but even then I will remain within the Herpetarium.
> If Contractors need to work in a snake room I will move all the stock out and sign a form to say that it is now safe for them to work in that particular room. I always keep external doors locked and will lock internal doors when we have contractors on site.
> As regards the monetary value, all the Midwest gear was very kindly donated by the company.... but I still don’t want to lose any of it.


Paul, my apologies if I commented without knowing all the details.


----------



## mad martin

> Indeed it is down to the handler, I couldn't agree more, and I also agree regarding the use of "snake proof" gloves.
> I've used pilstroms and midwest standards without causing any (noticable) injury to snakes, however I've seen bruising on albino monocled cobras that resulted from being restrained using those types, and they were being handled by someone I know to be incredibly adept. The same snakes showed no such bruising when handled with whito or GG. Whilst I may have overstated the danger by saying you risk spinal damage, which someone of skill and experience would clearly not, I stand by my statement that SOME damage may be done, albeit limited to just bruising, which lets face it is difficult at best to see on a properly pigmented (i.e non-albino) snake.
> I don't wish to sound like I'm claiming to know more about catching mambas than you, I obviously don't and nothing could be further from the truth. I just know what I've seen with my own 2 eyes, and that the handler was skilled, not a heavy-handed chum


That's my point. A handler that has learnt proper skill need not use tongs on a cobra. I cannot think of one cobra species I would use tongs on, for any reason at all. 
Some damage is done while pinning. Damage is done to the spine while tailing etc.
I do not know your credentials, and I mean no offence whatsoever, but we may have a very different point of view as to what a skilled handler is.


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## terciopelo_dave

I agree Martin, I personally do not use tongs on cobras either. The handler I was referring to is very delicate and very experienced, but is overtly safety conscious when it comes to removing animals from enclosures in front of inexperienced people, which at the time I was (we're going back around 10 years), so while he too would not usually use tongs on cobras, he did in my presence for the first few months of our aquaintance until he got to know me properly.
As for how I know he's gentle, well we've known each other 10 years and none of his mambas or taipans have ever been injured during that time so he must be doing something right.


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## leecb0

reef said:


> Wot IS that smell :whistling2:


Bovine feacease i think


----------



## ViperLover

leecb0 said:


> Bovine feacease i think


 
What reason do you have not to believe this?


----------



## terciopelo_dave

That said, I did have a forest cobra a few years ago that I did use tongs on. I'm not saying it wasn't due to a lack of skill on my part, but in my defence I've never NEEDED to use tongs with any other cobra I've kept. She was just so schizophrenically aggressive and relentless in pressing home a meaningful, determined attack, that I had no desire to get my hands anywhere near her. The black mambas I had at the same time would have needed a course of steroids, testosterone, and amphetamine to even come close to being as nasty as she was. I would usually argue that snakes are defensive, not aggressive, but not with her. She was just out and out nasty. She never even gave me an opportunity to hook or pin. If I walked in the room she was open mouthed at the viv door, and if the viv was opened she would explode out in my direction without a moment's hesitation.


----------



## mad martin

> I agree Martin, I personally do not use tongs on cobras either. The handler I was referring to is very delicate and very experienced, but is overtly safety conscious when it comes to removing animals from enclosures in front of inexperienced people, which at the time I was (we're going back around 10 years), so while he too would not usually use tongs on cobras, he did in my presence for the first few months of our aquaintance until he got to know me properly.
> As for how I know he's gentle, well we've known each other 10 years and none of his mambas or taipans have ever been injured during that time so he must be doing something right


.

But there you wrote it yourself 
Two inexperienced people working with tongs. Its not the tongs's fault that the animal got hurt, its the experience of the handler. I say two inexperienced handlers because a good handler is experienced in all aspects of working with his animals, and comfortable with all the equipment needed. A handler that injures a snake with tongs is not experienced yet. Just because someone has a Mamba in a cage, it doesn't make him experienced.
I have given many courses, and have taught many people how to work with snakes, including Black Mambas. A monkey can be taught to tail a cobra in about twenty minutes, but it takes time, experience and practice to become a quality handler.

example:
Before this course, the guy in picture had never touched a snake shedding before, let alone a snake.


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## mad martin

> That said, I did have a forest cobra a few years ago that I did use tongs on. I'm not saying it wasn't due to a lack of skill on my part, but in my defence I've never NEEDED to use tongs with any other cobra I've kept. She was just so schizophrenically aggressive and relentless in pressing home a meaningful, determined attack, that I had no desire to get my hands anywhere near her. The black mambas I had at the same time would have needed a course of steroids, testosterone, and amphetamine to even come close to being as nasty as she was. I would usually argue that snakes are defensive, not aggressive, but not with her. She was just out and out nasty. She never even gave me an opportunity to hook or pin. If I walked in the room she was open mouthed at the viv door, and if the viv was opened she would explode out in my direction without a moment's hesitation


That's my point. Its lack of experience. 
I have caught many many Forest Cobras up in trees, in houses etc. and never needed tongs. Not once have I ever used tongs on a cobra. That forest cobra you had is not unique in its attitude, its really typical wild Forest Cobra attitude. And as wild as that Forest is, I can still pin it with the back of a hookstick


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## mad martin

A forest rearing up like this is not trying to be friendly


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## Graylord

Have you noticed that venomous keepers are so much more respectful and polite to each other than non vens.: victory:: victory:


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## terciopelo_dave

Reading what you've said I can't actually disagree. You make an interesting and valid point. My friend was actually probably experienced in handling cobras with tongs so needed to fall back on that. Fortunately for me I learnt with other mentors aswell so am not so blighted. 
I would say however that your comment regarding my old forest cobra could be a little premature. I don't doubt your ability but she was something special. All my forests were, shall we say touchy, but she was ridiculous. I've never had another cobra I couldn't pin. She was the one. I've done martial arts for 23 years and can handle weapons, and I apply a lot of what I know to hooks. I can move a hook quickly but with control and easily get behind the head of a cobra and pin, without slamming down and causing injury. Not with her. She threw a coil forward whilst striking so she could double strike and cover a tremendous range, and, if I put a hook near her, move. You may have been able to deal with her, but I swear, hand on heart, she was like no other cobra I've ever seen in my life.


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## mad martin

My comment may be premature, but let me give you a little background.
I have caught and worked with forest cobras from St. Lucia all the way up to Central Africa over the course of quite a few years. To say I have worked with a few hundred would be a vast underestimation. Also, keep in mind that some of these snakes are pushing 2.5 - 3 metres and have never laid eyes on a human being before, and live in the most rife terrain you have laid eyes on. I do seriously believe that its easier working with a crazy snake in a captive environment than it is working with the same snake twenty metres up in a tree.

I am not telling you this to measure my privates, what I am trying to tell you is that our worlds of experience are vastly different, and our learning methods were vastly different. I never had a mentor or whatever, I had to learn it myself. 
I do believe that tongs in the wrong hands are dangerous to the animal, but practice and experience will improve your skill, regardless of the make or model of the tongs.


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## terciopelo_dave

Graylord said:


> Have you noticed that venomous keepers are so much more respectful and polite to each other than non vens.: victory:: victory:


I don't know, I don't think all non-hot keepers are disrespectful. Just a sad few who spoil it for everyone else.


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## mad martin

What Dave said 
I love seeing and learning from the different keepers all over the world. You learn more from a hobbyist than you could possibly imagine, so being rude is just cutting off your nose to spite your face


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## terciopelo_dave

mad martin said:


> My comment may be premature, but let me give you a little background.
> I have caught and worked with forest cobras from St. Lucia all the way up to Central Africa over the course of quite a few years. To say I have worked with a few hundred would be a vast underestimation. Also, keep in mind that some of these snakes are pushing 2.5 - 3 metres and have never laid eyes on a human being before, and live in the most rife terrain you have laid eyes on. I do seriously believe that its easier working with a crazy snake in a captive environment than it is working with the same snake twenty metres up in a tree.
> 
> I am not telling you this to measure my privates, what I am trying to tell you is that our worlds of experience are vastly different, and our learning methods were vastly different. I never had a mentor or whatever, I had to learn it myself.
> I do believe that tongs in the wrong hands are dangerous to the animal, but practice and experience will improve your skill, regardless of the make or model of the tongs.


Martin, if I came across as disrespectful I honestly didn't mean to. You don't have to tell me who you are or what you've done. If you're who I think you are I am well aware of your level experience, and I have no doubt whatsoever that mine pales into insignificance next to yours.
And yes, while I agree that catching a cobra up a tree may be somewhat more difficult than dealing with one in a viv, would you not agree that a captive animal has only one method of defence (offence) and only one escape route (through you), whereas a wild snake can turn and go the other way, which from the snakes I've caught wild would seem to be the prefered option every time.


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## ViperLover

terciopelo_dave said:


> Martin, if I came across as disrespectful I honestly didn't mean to. You don't have to tell me who you are or what you've done. If you're who I think you are I am well aware of your level experience, and I have no doubt whatsoever that mine pales into insignificance next to yours.
> And yes, while I agree that catching a cobra up a tree may be somewhat more difficult than dealing with one in a viv, would you not agree that a captive animal has only one method of defence (offence) and only one escape route (through you), whereas a wild snake can turn and go the other way, which from the snakes I've caught wild would seem to be the prefered option every time.


 
So basically what youre saying is:

You have more chance of being bitten in a captive environment, then in the wild...The animal can't run anywhere in the snake room, whereas in the wild, it has a whole wilderness to go, and can escape as necesary. Correct me if I am wrong


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## terciopelo_dave

Not necessarily more likely to get bitten, but more likely to see defensive behaviour. If a snake can't escape, it has to defend itself.


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## mad martin

Okay, to anyone reading this, English is my third language. So if I appear crass, its not my intent. Anyone that knows me, knows I have no anger in my heart or contempt for anyone at all 
I didn't tell you who I am or what I did to force it down your throat mate, I just used it to make a point with regards to experience and training. My intent was to show that enough time working with the techniques you've learned, the equipment makes no nevermind anymore. 
I agree with what you are saying about offence etc. , but what you have in your advantage is a controlled environment. The trees don't offer you that. And from experience, forest cobras are clever. They usually launch that attack when the brancj is in your face or you are close to falling


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## ViperLover

terciopelo_dave said:


> Not necessarily more likely to get bitten, but more likely to see defensive behaviour. If a snake can't escape, it has to defend itself.


 Offence is the best form of deffence..

An inexperienced statement here....but from what I've read on the form, and through other people...Cape Cobras, typically aren't very agressive...Which maybe a factor of why Martin has the abilitie to be at one with the animal, and free-handle it like he does.

However, a Forest Cobra, so I have read through Martins experience, typically are very, very deffencive and have an extremely short fuse...

Some animals may just resort to bluff, but others will just try to bite. And if biteing means getting the threat out of the animals face, then so be it. So in the animal kingdom, and with humans aswell...offence usually is the best form of deffence, instead of waiting for something bad to happen and then reacting.

You wouldnt wait for a country to launch a nuclear missile before you declaired war, would you? So a snake wouldn't wait for the threat to try to kill it before it bit somebody.

This is just my opinion, someone please correct me if my statement is over the top.


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## terciopelo_dave

Martin your english is fine mate. You don't come across as crass or arrogant, I'm just conscious that I may come across as a complete pratt for argueing with someone who knows mambas et al as well as you do. That isn't my intention or point.
And yes, from what I've seen of them in captivity, forests are remarkably intelligent, and I doubt they take prisoners in the wild either. I don't envy you being up a tree with one. And yes, captive conditions do offer a safety net for many people, but all the hots I've seen in wild states (in Thailand and North America so certainly not forest cobras) were much more accomodating to my presence than any captives were. Of course until I caught them at which point they fought obviously.


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## mad martin

First off, Cape Cobras are very aggressive, and will not hesitate for a second to bite. They are responsible for the most snake bite fatalities across their range. Quite an achievement, considering the amount of puff adders that share their range.
Forest Cobras are just quick to respond to what they consider an invasion of their privacy, and due to their size and intelligence, they are more effective at it. They are also arboreal, making them trickier to work with than other cobras.
No animal just attacks blindly mate, they let you know in many many ways that you are intruding and its best you back off. A snake is fragile, and will certainly not risk a confrontation if it does not need to.


----------



## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> Okay, to anyone reading this, English is my third language. So if I appear crass, its not my intent. Anyone that knows me, knows I have no anger in my heart or contempt for anyone at all
> I didn't tell you who I am or what I did to force it down your throat mate, I just used it to make a point with regards to experience and training. My intent was to show that enough time working with the techniques you've learned, the equipment makes no nevermind anymore.
> I agree with what you are saying about offence etc. , but what you have in your advantage is a controlled environment. The trees don't offer you that. And from experience, forest cobras are clever. They usually launch that attack when the brancj is in your face or you are close to falling


 
I mistook you're English for a first, if not second speaking language. It is spot on mate...No need to worry


----------



## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> First off, Cape Cobras are very aggressive, and will not hesitate for a second to bite. They are responsible for the most snake bite fatalities across their range. Quite an achievement, considering the amount of puff adders that share their range.
> Forest Cobras are just quick to respond to what they consider an invasion of their privacy, and due to their size and intelligence, they are more effective at it. They are also arboreal, making them trickier to work with than other cobras.
> No animal just attacks blindly mate, they let you know in many many ways that you are intruding and its best you back off. A snake is fragile, and will certainly not risk a confrontation if it does not need to.


 
Ohh cool. cheers mate 

And wowww....Judging by the pictures i've seen...You make Cape Cobras look like puppydogs! I never had the slightest idea they were agressive.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

ViperLover said:


> An inexperienced statement here....but from what I've read on the form, and through other people...Cape Cobras, typically aren't very agressive...Which maybe a factor of why Martin has the abilitie to be at one with the animal, and free-handle it like he does.


Nope, I suspect he's just good enough to do it.
James, to repeat what others have said ad nauseum, you're recycling knowledge. Please stop. I'm far from the most experienced person here, but my statements are based on events I have been involved in. Even if you're wrong, if you can speak from practical experience people respect it. Please take that on board mate, as I've said before, if you were to reign it in just a little, you would find people on here much more accomodating.


----------



## mad martin

> Martin your english is fine mate. You don't come across as crass or arrogant, I'm just conscious that I may come across as a complete pratt for argueing with someone who knows mambas et al as well as you do. That isn't my intention or point.
> And yes, from what I've seen of them in captivity, forests are remarkably intelligent, and I doubt they take prisoners in the wild either. I don't envy you being up a tree with one. And yes, captive conditions do offer a safety net for many people, but all the hots I've seen in wild states (in Thailand and North America so certainly not forest cobras) were much more accomodating to my presence than any captives were. Of course until I caught them at which point they fought obviously


Thanks. English was the harder language to learn 
I would be a complete pratt if I do not read and learn from what you write. The moment you believe you are above learning is the moment you become an asshole 
I believe African snakes, for the most part, to be that little faster to defend themselves. Simply because of the vast amount of predators they face on a daily basis. But, like you say, they do try and get away first. But sooner or later, you are going to end up cornering it and you are in its comfort zone, not the other way round


----------



## ViperLover

terciopelo_dave said:


> Nope, I suspect he's just good enough to do it.
> James, to repeat what others have said ad nauseum, you're recycling knowledge. Please stop. I'm far from the most experienced person here, but my statements are based on events I have been involved in. Even if you're wrong, if you can speak from practical experience people respect it. Please take that on board mate, as I've said before, if you were to reign it in just a little, you would find people on here much more accomodating.


 
I wasn't recycling information.

I said judging by what I have seen (AKA Martin free-handling) I was under the impression, if the animal was at all agressive, Martin wouldn't risk it. I was wrong  And I am glad Martin put me right.


----------



## mad martin

That is exactly the point people were trying to make James. Just because the Cape Cobra looks like a puppy in a picture, it doesn't mean they are. The moment you work with them, you will realize exactly what they are like


----------



## Jade01

This thread is really interesting, thanks for starting it up!




ViperLover said:


> *I wasn't recycling information.*
> 
> I said judging by what I have seen (AKA Martin free-handling) I was under the impression, if the animal was at all agressive, Martin wouldn't risk it. I was wrong  And I am glad Martin put me right.


yes you were. you were repeating exactly what other people have said, in your words...


----------



## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> That is exactly the point people were trying to make James. Just because the Cape Cobra looks like a puppy in a picture, it doesn't mean they are. The moment you work with them, you will realize exactly what they are like


 


Martin....When a Cobra is hooded up, and standing. - Is it true that they can only strike downwards?

Maybe, if that is true..is that the reason you got away with it?? Just a question I feel needs answering by experience, and not wikipedia.


----------



## Jade01

mad martin said:


> That is exactly the point people were trying to make James. Just because the Cape Cobra looks like a puppy in a picture, it doesn't mean they are. The moment you work with them, you will realize exactly what they are like



Hey,
sorry if you've said this in a previous post.. How long have you been working with hots for? You've got so much knowledge and confidence, its really amazing


----------



## terciopelo_dave

Never a truer word spoken. I fully expect to be learning until the day I die. No one knows everything, and those who believe they do are often the most lacking.
From those that i've kept, African hots certainly seem to be quicker to defend than most, with a few notable exceptions. Certainly Asian cobras are nothing like as feisty.


----------



## ViperLover

Jade01 said:


> Hey,
> sorry if you've said this in a previous post.. How long have you been working with hots for? You've got so much knowledge and confidence, its really amazing


 
You need to be confident.

If you hesitated, then you wouldn't be alive....But you need the experience to be confident. 

I doubt I could be confident without experience...After reading a little more and learning from people on here...I have realised that in the beginning I was cocksure.


----------



## Aconite

I dont know any of you on here, so this is not directed at any one person, it is more an observation.

I have lived and kept snakes in both Africa and Europe and things are definitely done differently here to in S.A.
They say "a bad workman blames his tools", but I am a professional artist and I use the best paints and brushes money can buy, but I know that I will still be an award wining artist if I had really cheap equipment, as I am talented and have a very good technique. 

In the UK we have pretty much everything of the best at our disposal - and life is not really that full of surprises to the average snake enthusiast over here. 
I have my snakes in really nice vivs with all the heating and humidity mod cons and my entire environment is under my control.

But I grew up in a nature reserve in South Africa and even though my parents and their colleagues were trained and equipped to deal with everything that lived and breathed it just never worked out to be that simple. 
We had all the tools we needed, but the snakes would always arrive at inconvenient times, like while you are in the bath, or busy cooking dinner and there is a cobra under the fridge. So we always ended up having to catch or contain a snake using what was to hand. And you never seem to have a grab stick or a large bin when you are showering.
So in SA you simply have to learn to adapt and you develop skills that are not dependent on tools. 

So I think those of us from a third world country just do things in a different way. We are much more on our toes (simply because if you let your guard down in Africa you are mincemeat) but we also improvise a hell of a lot more than I have seen in Europe and we also tend to make up the rules as we go along. (Or there are no rules- if you need to "catch" a cobra under a bath towel then so be it, you gotta do what you need to do to survive.)

I dont keep venomous and as I have said, I dont know Martin, but I can see where he is coming from as I have spent many days and nights removing all sorts of nasties from my bedroom. (And I dont only mean men.)


----------



## SWMorelia

Jade01 said:


> Hey,
> sorry if you've said this in a previous post.. How long have you been working with hots for? You've got so much knowledge and confidence, its really amazing





ViperLover said:


> You need to be confident.
> 
> If you hesitated, then you wouldn't be alive....But you need the experience to be confident.
> 
> I doubt I could be confident without experience...After reading a little more and learning from people on here...I have realised that in the beginning I was cocksure.


Nice to see Martin now has a spokes person answering for him....:whistling2:


----------



## terciopelo_dave

ViperLover said:


> You need to be confident.
> 
> If you hesitated, then you wouldn't be alive....But you need the experience to be confident.
> 
> I doubt I could be confident without experience...After reading a little more and learning from people on here...I have realised that in the beginning I was cocksure.


You still are too cocksure James, and you meet even the most well intention criticism with resistance. People don't criticise you for fun, it is done with your interest at heart, and if you did but realise the people who you seem to think are attacking you would help you given the opportunity and don't actually want to read about you as a headline concerning a venomous snake casualty.


----------



## Jade01

ViperLover said:


> You need to be confident.
> 
> If you hesitated, then you wouldn't be alive....But you need the experience to be confident.
> 
> I doubt I could be confident without experience...After reading a little more and learning from people on here...I have realised that in the beginning I was cocksure.


I know, I have a little experience with hots, I know you can't hesitate and stuff... but he still has a lot of confidence and knowledge


----------



## Jade01

SW-morelia said:


> Nice to see Martin now has a spokes person answering for him....:whistling2:


Impressive isnt it!!


----------



## mad martin

> Martin....When a Cobra is hooded up, and standing. - Is it true that they can only strike downwards


No, I have seen cobras launch out of a bin at you, or sling around and up using the leverage to force themselves upwards. The worst mistake you can ever make is to assume it cannot do something.



> Hey,
> sorry if you've said this in a previous post.. How long have you been working with hots for? You've got so much knowledge and confidence, its really amazing


I caught my first snake when I was three, and my dad showed me how to catch my first cobra when I was six. I caught my first crocodile that same year. It was a smallish guy, but so was I 
Thank you for the compliment 



> Never a truer word spoken. I fully expect to be learning until the day I die. No one knows everything, and those who believe they do are often the most lacking.
> From those that i've kept, African hots certainly seem to be quicker to defend than most, with a few notable exceptions. Certainly Asian cobras are nothing like as feisty


I haven't worked with nearly as many asian snakes as I have with African snakes, but the one's I worked with showed a trend I don't often see with African snakes. The asian cobras tend to do closed mouth mock charges as opposed to having a full blooded go at you. But with these I am limited to the few that were in captive conditions.


----------



## mad martin

> I know, I have a little experience with hots, I know you can't hesitate and stuff... but he still has a lot of confidence and knowledge


Ha ha ha ha ha I need some guys here to speak to my mum. She calls "confidence" insanity and "knowledge" as stupidity  It would be awesome to give her a different perspective


----------



## terciopelo_dave

Aconite said:


> I dont know any of you on here, so this is not directed at any one person, it is more an observation.
> 
> I have lived and kept snakes in both Africa and Europe and things are definitely done differently here to in S.A.
> They say "a bad workman blames his tools", but I am a professional artist and I use the best paints and brushes money can buy, but I know that I will still be an award wining artist if I had really cheap equipment, as I am talented and have a very good technique.
> 
> In the UK we have pretty much everything of the best at our disposal - and life is not really that full of surprises to the average snake enthusiast over here.
> I have my snakes in really nice vivs with all the heating and humidity mod cons and my entire environment is under my control.
> 
> But I grew up in a nature reserve in South Africa and even though my parents and their colleagues were trained and equipped to deal with everything that lived and breathed it just never worked out to be that simple.
> We had all the tools we needed, but the snakes would always arrive at inconvenient times, like while you are in the bath, or busy cooking dinner and there is a cobra under the fridge. So we always ended up having to catch or contain a snake using what was to hand. And you never seem to have a grab stick or a large bin when you are showering.
> So in SA you simply have to learn to adapt and you develop skills that are not dependent on tools.
> 
> So I think those of us from a third world country just do things in a different way. We are much more on our toes (simply because if you let your guard down in Africa you are mincemeat) but we also improvise a hell of a lot more than I have seen in Europe and we also tend to make up the rules as we go along. (Or there are no rules- if you need to "catch" a cobra under a bath towel then so be it, you gotta do what you need to do to survive.)
> 
> I dont keep venomous and as I have said, I dont know Martin, but I can see where he is coming from as I have spent many days and nights removing all sorts of nasties from my bedroom. (And I dont only mean men.)


A humbling statement, thanks for posting. I guess you don't realise you're in a lucky position until you're told or it's pointed out to you. I work with a guy from Zambia who can't understand why I keep snakes as he used to kill any he saw. I wish he could have done things differently but I have to see his point. If I'm exposed to a venomous snake it is through my choosing. If he was exposed to a venomous snake it certainly wouldn't be through choice and could threaten his life and the life of his family, ergo he had to react in the only way he knew. I suppose the same kind of logic can be applied to handlers in those circumstances. You make do with what you've got because you've got no choice.


----------



## Jade01

mad martin said:


> I caught my first snake when I was three, and my dad showed me how to catch my first cobra when I was six. I caught my first crocodile that same year. It was a smallish guy, but so was I
> Thank you for the compliment



That's pretty impressive! When I was six I was looking after a rabbit... doesnt quite have the same level of coolness about it lol!
I'd love to be that confident one day, and its my pleasure


----------



## reef

mad martin said:


> Ha ha ha ha ha I need some guys here to speak to my mum. She calls "confidence" insanity and "knowledge" as stupidity  It would be awesome to give her a different perspective


so your a stupid nutter who is bloody good with snakes :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


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## Jade01

mad martin said:


> Ha ha ha ha ha I need some guys here to speak to my mum. She calls "confidence" insanity and "knowledge" as stupidity  It would be awesome to give her a different perspective



hahaha! my mum has the same feeling towards reptiles.. not that you can quite compare an anaconda to a cobra, but still!


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## terciopelo_dave

mad martin said:


> I haven't worked with nearly as many asian snakes as I have with African snakes, but the one's I worked with showed a trend I don't often see with African snakes. The asian cobras tend to do closed mouth mock charges as opposed to having a full blooded go at you. But with these I am limited to the few that were in captive conditions.


I've noticed the same. Asians tend to warn whereas Africans go for the bite from word go. On the whole anyway. But I've only had wild and captive experience with Asians. Never been anywhere in Africa so I'm in no position to comment on the temperament of snakes in the wild in any African country.


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## mad martin

Reef is more like my mother   



> That's pretty impressive! When I was six I was looking after a rabbit... doesnt quite have the same level of coolness about it lol!
> I'd love to be that confident one day, and its my pleasure


Confidence comes with time and, unfortunately, with accidents too. I have a bed booked in the emergency ward. They honestly say "See you soon" when I check out. Although this year I have been fairly well behaved. I think its the growing up thing 

@Dave: as aconite said, Africa is a different world. But its a world that will always be very very close to my heart


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## mad martin

Dave, you should save some money and come catch crocs with me 
I am sure we can find a snake or two along the way


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## terciopelo_dave

mad martin said:


> Dave: as aconite said, Africa is a different world. But its a world that will always be very very close to my heart


I would visit in a heart beat if A) I could decide which country out of the many I'd love to see, and B) if I could afford it. One day mate, one day. I'd love to see SA, the rift valley, and Victoria falls. Sadly my geography is pretty good, so I DO realise the distances between them. Hence saying I couldn't decide where to go first. It would certainly take numerous trips to see everything I wanted to.


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## mad martin

"If you had to pick two places to see, visit Africa twice"


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## ViperLover

I'd come and catch Crocs with you Martin...

But I'd be more interested in seeing a Cobra, or a Viper in the wild...Or sneaking up on a Pride of Lions to take pictures.


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## SWMorelia

ViperLover said:


> I'd come and catch Crocs with you Martin...
> 
> But I'd be more interested in seeing a Cobra, or a Viper in the wild...Or sneaking up on a Pride of Lions to take pictures.


You got bait then Martin.....:whistling2:


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## reef

SW-morelia said:


> You got bait then Martin.....:whistling2:


:2thumb:


----------



## mad martin

Mate, I am f***ing crazy, but sneaking up on a pride of lions is probably the dumbest thing you will ever try. So there, you are completely on your own.


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## terciopelo_dave

mad martin said:


> Dave, you should save some money and come catch crocs with me
> I am sure we can find a snake or two along the way


There's nothing I'd love more. Crocs are my absolute favorite animal, bar none. I've kept caimans and alligators but have always had to admire crocs from a distance. As for catching snakes, if I had the money I'd be on the first plane over there to do one of your courses. If my financial situation changes I will definately take you up on the offer. At the moment though I'm saving to take my girlfriend to Florida again. We've just come back and I bought her a session swimming with dolphins for her birthday. It was incredible so we're going back asap. If I save hard I should be able to afford it by april 2011.


----------



## moodyblue1969

ViperLover said:


> .Or sneaking up on a Pride of Lions to take pictures.


 you sneak up on them whilst i stay at a good distance with the camera. you daft fool,they would know you were there before you even saw them :bash:


----------



## mad martin

> There's nothing I'd love more. Crocs are my absolute favorite animal, bar none. I've kept caimans and alligators but have always had to admire crocs from a distance. As for catching snakes, if I had the money I'd be on the first plane over there to do one of your courses. If my financial situation changes I will definately take you up on the offer. At the moment though I'm saving to take my girlfriend to Florida again. We've just come back and I bought her a session swimming with dolphins for her birthday. It was incredible so we're going back asap. If I save hard I should be able to afford it by april 2011


Crocs are my favourites too 
You should go shark diving in Mozambique. Awesome awesome experience. I do it every time I go up there. 
There is no one that can book it for you etc. but no one to stop you either. There are no shark nets, so you can just go swim.




> you sneak up on them whilst i stay at a good distance with the camera. you daft fool,they would know you were there before you even saw them


Well said


----------



## terciopelo_dave

ViperLover said:


> I'd come and catch Crocs with you Martin...
> 
> But I'd be more interested in seeing a Cobra, or a Viper in the wild...Or sneaking up on a Pride of Lions to take pictures.


Oh dear James, oh dear.
Lions are so highly adapted predators they could "feel" you coming when you got on the plane at Heathrow.
I can see the headline now.... "a blood stained camera has been recovered from kruger national park. Next to it was a pair of pants and thermos with the name 'James' written on it...."


----------



## Malc

moodyblue1969 said:


> you sneak up on them whilst i stay at a good distance with the camera. you daft fool,they would know you were there before you even saw them :bash:


Three times I clicked on the reply button and started a reply in response to the drivel that James still insists on posting... then hit the back button...

But now he's even incensed another member with his daft post.... 

Sod it - [hits the submit reply button]


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## mad martin

James, don't f*** with lions. They kill people because they know you are easier food than catching an impala. A tiger may be dangerous, but lions have numbers. Near Namibia in the Kalahari, there are lions that kill elephants. They not for sneaking up on.


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## terciopelo_dave

mad martin said:


> Crocs are my favourites too
> You should go shark diving in Mozambique. Awesome awesome experience. I do it every time I go up there.
> There is no one that can book it for you etc. but no one to stop you either. There are no shark nets, so you can just go swim.


I'd jump at the chance mate. The dolphin swim was truly awesome, but given the choice I'd take sharks every time. What species do you see round there? Oh and by the way, any lions we could sneak up on too. lol


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## mad martin

White Tip Reef sharks, Lemon Sharks, Tiger Sharks, Bull Sharks and Great White Sharks.

LOL I can show where you can find lions, but I have had way too many close calls with lions and have learnt a healthy respect (also, I don't run quite as fast anymore).


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## SWMorelia

Martin I think you are wrong about Lions.... They are very easy to sneak up on.... Sneaking away again is the hard part.... LOL


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## mad martin

There is no sneaking away. You run and hope you are faster on earth than they are in the shit trail you leave behind


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## reef

mad martin said:


> There is no sneaking away. You run and hope you are faster on earth than they are in the shit trail you leave behind


Ill go with Viperlover ..... I only have to outrun him not the lions :whistling2:


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## SWMorelia

mad martin said:


> There is no sneaking away. You run and hope you are faster on earth than they are in the shit trail you leave behind


Exactly:lol2:
I knew that and we don't have Lions in Wales.....
James.... I wish you would think before you post.... This hole you're digging is getting awful deep


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## terciopelo_dave

mad martin said:


> White Tip Reef sharks, Lemon Sharks, Tiger Sharks, Bull Sharks and Great White Sharks.
> 
> LOL I can show where you can find lions, but I have had way too many close calls with lions and have learnt a healthy respect (also, I don't run quite as fast anymore).


That sounds truly fantastic. If I come into some cash you'll be the first to know. Don't worry about the lions, we'll take James. As long as we're both faster than him we should be fine. You keep him talking, I'll tie his laces together.


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## moodyblue1969

reef said:


> Ill go with Viperlover ..... I only have to outrun him not the lions :whistling2:





terciopelo_dave said:


> That sounds truly fantastic. If I come into some cash you'll be the first to know. Don't worry about the lions, we'll take James. As long as we're both faster than him we should be fine. You keep him talking, I'll tie his laces together.


 im crying with laughter,oh god this just gets better :lol2:


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## mad martin

LOL ha ha ha ha ha
I am experienced at running away from lions, and admittedly, its every man for himself


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## SWMorelia

terciopelo_dave said:


> That sounds truly fantastic. If I come into some cash you'll be the first to know. Don't worry about the lions, we'll take James. As long as we're both faster than him we should be fine. *You keep him talking, I'll tie his laces together*.


He'll probably do that his self..... If he doesn't get his fingers tied in the knot first:lol2:


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## terciopelo_dave

Now where did I put that steak? Oh yeah, left it in James's pocket. Ooops.


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## mad martin

A few years ago I was working on a game farm as a bush manager. And one of the game rangers came to my quite little abode in the bush for a beer after work, and he said something that has always stuck with me.

"Do you know what a lion sees when he sees a tourist? A pork chop with Nikes and a camera".


----------



## terciopelo_dave

mad martin said:


> LOL ha ha ha ha ha
> I am experienced at running away from lions, and admittedly, its every man for himself


I once heard that to escape from a polar bear you should remove items of clothing so the bear gets distracted by them so you can back slowly away....
Seems to me the last place you'd want to get naked is precisely the kind of place you'd find a polar bear. Might be a bit cold. A much better solution would be to go looking for polar bears with a fat, slow guy.... with a limp.
About those lions James.... how much do you weigh? Any leg injuries I should know about?


----------



## reef

Soooo James is it Panthera leo we are talking about ? is it a quadroped or a piniped ,does it have teeth and is it venomous ?

(slighty off topic sorry )


----------



## terciopelo_dave

mad martin said:


> A few years ago I was working on a game farm as a bush manager. And one of the game rangers came to my quite little abode in the bush for a beer after work, and he said something that has always stuck with me.
> 
> "Do you know what a lion sees when he sees a tourist? A pork chop with Nikes and a camera".


Wasn't it Kruger that had the problem a few years ago with lions waiting by the border fences for refugees trying to enter SA. Apparently they were eating the border jumpers who were trying to enter via the park.


----------



## mad martin

Ha ha ha ha ha yeah Dave I didn't want to say it.
That fence line is a meal ticket for lions and crocodiles


----------



## terciopelo_dave

reef said:


> Soooo James is it Panthera leo we are talking about ? is it a quadroped or a piniped ,does it have teeth and is it venomous ?
> 
> (slighty off topic sorry )


Don't be silly reef, it's a greater spotted egyptian, banded, snouted, forest, cape, spitting lion. You have to look at them through a mirror or you turn to stone. So I read on wikipedia anyway.


----------



## mad martin

As for taking my clothes off, no chance in hell!!!!
Google "sickle bush". The bush is aptly named


----------



## Aconite

Boy! Not just the lions are to be avoided.
I grew up in a reserve where we had no lions, but I was still told not to venture out into the bush on my own, as the roan antelope were damn nasty. One guy got killed by an ostrich and I was unlucky enough to be on the back of a truck (bakkie) that got chased by an ostrich. When I was older and drove my car almost got stomped on a few times by pissed off Elephants. 

Basically I dont know how I survived! My folks were typical South Africans and just let me wander off alone in the bush. I would come home with my arms full of creatures and then I would sort thru them in the hope that none were too poisonous. 
If I saw a snake I would just rip off my t-shirt, throw it on the snake and grab the poor thing. Put my shirt back on, tuck it into my trousers and pop the snake down my shirt. (I was too young to know any better.) Just my luck it was never venomous. Very lucky that in all my time of catching snakes in Africa I never got bitten. 

When I say this I am not being flippant! I was VERY VERY lucky that I never caught a dangerous snake. I had a silly little field book with bad drawings of snakes in it. I memorized this. If I saw a snake that looked "addery" or "elapidy" then I would not pick it up. But I was 10 years old and I did this till I was 23. I was basically a moron! I know this now. But now I am 36 - and arguably still not that bright. :whistling2: 

And oh yeah! Diving with the hammerheads off Mozambique! Something that has to be done! I have dived with black tip reef sharks in the maldives, but they are the "corn snake" of sharks. Hammers and Raggies are the real thing!!!:2thumb:

If I had only one location to go... SA, the transvaal. No contest.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

mad martin said:


> Ha ha ha ha ha yeah Dave I didn't want to say it.
> That fence line is a meal ticket for lions and crocodiles


Thought so. I saw a program where they were trying to round up some of the problem lions. They showed that they had lost all fear of humans when the guy opened the land rover door. A big male lion stared at the truck until the door opened, at which point he ran at it. No fear, no hesitation. That lion quite clearly saw people as food. Nothing more. Quite chilling and eye opening really. When a hot snake bites you it's one thing, but when you know an animal is looking at you and seeing it's next meal it's not a nice feeling. Even through a tv.


----------



## mad martin

@ aconite: my favourite country is Mozambique. I loooooooooooove that place 
I forgot about hammers and raggies to be honest. In the oceans off Mozambique is a lot of different shark species.


----------



## mad martin

Yeah snakes have antivenom.
There is no av for a lion charge or any of the other dangerous game out here.


----------



## Malc

SW-morelia said:


> He'll probably do that his self..... If he doesn't get his fingers tied in the knot first:lol2:


You guys crack me up !! : victory:


----------



## terciopelo_dave

Aconite said:


> Boy! Not just the lions are to be avoided.
> I grew up in a reserve where we had no lions, but I was still told not to venture out into the bush on my own, as the roan antelope were damn nasty. One guy got killed by an ostrich and I was unlucky enough to be on the back of a truck (bakkie) that got chased by an ostrich. When I was older and drove my car almost got stomped on a few times by pissed off Elephants.
> 
> Basically I dont know how I survived! My folks were typical South Africans and just let me wander off alone in the bush. I would come home with my arms full of creatures and then I would sort thru them in the hope that none were too poisonous.
> If I saw a snake I would just rip off my t-shirt, throw it on the snake and grab the poor thing. Put my shirt back on, tuck it into my trousers and pop the snake down my shirt. (I was too young to know any better.) Just my luck it was never venomous. Very lucky that in all my time of catching snakes in Africa I never got bitten.
> 
> When I say this I am not being flippant! I was VERY VERY lucky that I never caught a dangerous snake. I had a silly little field book with bad drawings of snakes in it. I memorized this. If I saw a snake that looked "addery" or "elapidy" then I would not pick it up. But I was 10 years old and I did this till I was 23. I was basically a moron! I know this now. But now I am 36 - and arguably still not that bright. :whistling2:
> 
> And oh yeah! Diving with the hammerheads off Mozambique! Something that has to be done! I have dived with black tip reef sharks in the maldives, but they are the "corn snake" of sharks. Hammers and Raggies are the real thing!!!:2thumb:
> 
> If I had only one location to go... SA, the transvaal. No contest.


Why wasn't my childhood like this. I had to settle with putting woodlice in garden spider webs, and trying to catch adders and grass snakes on the few occasions I was lucky enough to find them. My hat's off to you sir.


----------



## mad martin

The sad thing is, Dave, few people here appreciate what is around them.


----------



## exoticsadmirer

I would have loved to grow up in Africa but i got born in soggy derbyshire and all i get is snails and wood lice and the occasional frog no snakes nothing i mean when i get enough money i might try and move to africa but way too young yet i was thinging australia but it's a bit weird there.


----------



## Aconite

Mozambique hey! Hmm, I am planning a trip for 2010, so I must include that. I have a friend who lives there. Sounds bliss! 
But the water is so damn cold!

My dad had a good friend who worked with cats. He made one false move and had his head bitten off. It wasnt a lion though, even worse it was an import, a tiger! 

I think it was an american woman in Kruger??? who got out to have her photo taken with the lions and she moved the one cub closer to the others so it was better placed for the photo.... didnt end well for her.


----------



## reef

mad martin said:


> The sad thing is, Dave, few people here appreciate what is around them.


never a truer word mate (if i may call you that lol ) most pple seem to react with disgust ,indifference or violence when instead they should be amazed and in awe



Ps I do hope i did not sound like HIM !!!


----------



## mad martin

The water in Mozambique is never cold  That is Indian ocean


----------



## SWMorelia

exoticsadmirer said:


> I would have loved to grow up in Africa* but i got born in soggy derbyshire* and all i get is snails and wood lice and the occasional frog no snakes nothing i mean when i get enough money i might try and move to africa but way too young yet i was thinging australia but it's a bit weird there.


There's something to be said for that..... Nothing dangerous can be quite cool..
It sounds great having exotics in the bathroom living wild, the reality can be a real pain..... IMO


----------



## ViperLover

I would of loved to of grown up in Africa, its full of wildlife.

Ok, maybe the lion thing was a little stupid, but it has been done, and recorded. Whether the animals were wild or not, is a different matter.

Diving with sharks you say? Another thing that would be awesome to do. I have only ever seen one shark in my life, and thats the species we have over here in the British waters.....(Cant remember the name, but I was talking to a couple of guys fishing on the shore, and they caught one while I was there, I held it, and got the chance to release it)

Great White Sharks...Have you ever dived with those outside of the cage?


----------



## mad martin

> never a truer word mate (if i may call you that lol )


I am not the pope


----------



## terciopelo_dave

mad martin said:


> The sad thing is, Dave, few people here appreciate what is around them.


I appreciated what I had, in as much as I could've been raised in the middle of a city. I had the peak district on my doorstep, but I always craved something more. 
Like we established earlier, I had to be mentored in venomous snakes. You handled them at 3.
I don't wish to sound jealous, but I often sit and wonder what would I be doing if I'd been born somewhere like Africa. Still, I wasn't so no point dwelling on it.


----------



## Aconite

reef said:


> never a truer word mate (if i may call you that lol ) most pple seem to react with disgust ,indifference or violence when instead they should be amazed and in awe
> 
> 
> 
> Ps I do hope i did not sound like HIM !!!


OMG! You so did sound like him!!!

About the UK... I live in Kent and I was taking my son for a walk in the woods just last month and one of his friends lifted up a rock... and I waited for everyone to comment.... in the end I kneeled down and lifted up what no one had seen! 2 cute little baby lizards!

There is stuff out there, it just needs to be found... and returned, safely to under the same rock.

Oh, I am not a sir. I am a girl, trust me the snakes were happy to be in my shirt :whistling2:


----------



## moodyblue1969

terciopelo_dave said:


> I appreciated what I had, in as much as I could've been raised in the middle of a city. I had the peak district on my doorstep, but I always craved something more.
> Like we established earlier, I had to be mentored in venomous snakes. You handled them at 3.
> I don't wish to sound jealous, but I often sit and wonder what would I be doing if I'd been born somewhere like Africa. Still, I wasn't so no point dwelling on it.


 true but the british countryside also has beautiful wildlife,its just a matter of looking for it sometimes.i know its not in the same category as africa but beautiful all the same


----------



## terciopelo_dave

Aconite said:


> Mozambique hey! Hmm, I am planning a trip for 2010, so I must include that. I have a friend who lives there. Sounds bliss!
> But the water is so damn cold!
> 
> My dad had a good friend who worked with cats. He made one false move and had his head bitten off. It wasnt a lion though, even worse it was an import, a tiger!
> 
> I think it was an american woman in Kruger??? who got out to have her photo taken with the lions and she moved the one cub closer to the others so it was better placed for the photo.... didnt end well for her.


I heard about that one. Did you hear about the guy in australia who did king fu? Apparently his instructor told him he had achieved a high enough level to "take on wild beasts". He took this literally and broke into a zoo (melbourne I think), and climbed into the lion enclosure. That didn't end well either. Search for the story on the darwin awards website.


----------



## mad martin

> There's something to be said for that..... Nothing dangerous can be quite cool..
> It sounds great having exotics in the bathroom living wild, the reality can be a real pain..... IMO


It depends. I have always been a firm believer of live and let live. My house right now has bats flying in and out feeding on the large amount of insects gathered by the lights. They are not doing me any harm, so why should it bother me?
My previous place was an open plan, and I often had warthogs in the kitchen etc. The only closed room was my bedroom. There are limits 



> Great White Sharks...Have you ever dived with those outside of the cage


Yes. Like with all animals, treat them with respect and they offer you the same. They are not man eaters, most bites are more from testing an object they don't know. After all, they are "hands challenged"


----------



## mad martin

I was in the UK a few years ago, and I enjoyed the woods and fields a great deal. Not quite Africa, but special in its own right.


----------



## exoticsadmirer

Yeh i take things for granted as well i mean there is a fox den near me and that's about the only dangerous thing around here but yeh if you live in a country where everybody goes ooh and ah at things you find perfectly normal after awhile you'd just ignore it i know i do sometimes.


----------



## reef

mad martin said:


> I was in the UK a few years ago, and I enjoyed the woods and fields a great deal. Not quite Africa, but special in its own right.


We call that Dogging mate !! (couldnt resist sorry ):blush:


----------



## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> I was in the UK a few years ago, and I enjoyed the woods and fields a great deal. Not quite Africa, but special in its own right.


 
Wildlife in the UK is extremely hard to find, but if one is patient, and waits then everything can be found.

Reptiles are the hardest things to find here IMO, I have only ever seen one native snake in my life...a Grass Snake, and that was by chance. if it hadn't of moved, I would never of seen it.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

mad martin said:


> It depends. I have always been a firm believer of live and let live. My house right now has bats flying in and out feeding on the large amount of insects gathered by the lights. They are not doing me any harm, so why should it bother me?
> My previous place was an open plan, and I often had warthogs in the kitchen etc. The only closed room was my bedroom. There are limits
> 
> 
> Yes. Like with all animals, treat them with respect and they offer you the same. They are not man eaters, most bites are more from testing an object they don't know. After all, they are "hands challenged"


From what I hear, most researchers now believe the great white to be intelligent enough to tell the difference between a seal and a surfer. Supposedly it's the churning water that distorts the image and confuses the shark, at which point it feels the object, like martin said, with it's teeth. That's why so many people live. the shark quickly realises it's mistake and leaves you alone. Not much consolation when you're bleeding to death, but if a great white meant it, I firmly believe no human could possibly fight one off.


----------



## stuartdouglas

ViperLover said:


> Offence is the best form of deffence..
> 
> An inexperienced statement here....but from what I've read on the form, and through other people...Cape Cobras, typically aren't very agressive...Which maybe a factor of why Martin has the abilitie to be at one with the animal, and free-handle it like he does.
> 
> However, a Forest Cobra, so I have read through Martins experience, typically are very, very deffencive and have an extremely short fuse...
> 
> Some animals may just resort to bluff, but others will just try to bite. And if biteing means getting the threat out of the animals face, then so be it. So in the animal kingdom, and with humans aswell...offence usually is the best form of deffence, instead of waiting for something bad to happen and then reacting.
> 
> You wouldnt wait for a country to launch a nuclear missile before you declaired war, would you? So a snake wouldn't wait for the threat to try to kill it before it bit somebody.
> 
> This is just my opinion, someone please correct me if my statement is over the top.


 
F.F.S..........S.T.F.U :bash:


----------



## terciopelo_dave

reef said:


> We call that Dogging mate !! (couldnt resist sorry ):blush:


LMAO. Is that why our car ends up looking like a plasterer's radio when my girlfriend and I go "herping"?


----------



## moodyblue1969

ViperLover said:


> Wildlife in the UK is extremely hard to find, but if one is patient, and waits then everything can be found.


 that is rubbish,sorry.it depends on your observation. too many people walk around half asleep these days worrying about the material things in life therefore not even noticing the natural beauty around and the little insects/animals scuttling around


----------



## wildlifewarrior

exoticsadmirer said:


> I would have loved to grow up in Africa but i got born in soggy derbyshire and all i get is snails and wood lice and the occasional frog no snakes nothing i mean when i get enough money i might try and move to africa but way too young yet i was thinging australia but it's a bit weird there.


well derby is only 25 mins from stoke and i caught grassies,adders,slow worms,frogs,newts and all sorts as a kid



ViperLover said:


> I would of loved to of grown up in Africa, its full of wildlife.


yea because no where else has wildlife



ViperLover said:


> Wildlife in the UK is extremely hard to find, but if one is patient, and waits then everything can be found.
> 
> Reptiles are the hardest things to find here IMO, I have only ever seen one native snake in my life...a Grass Snake, and that was by chance. if it hadn't of moved, I would never of seen it.


how is it so hard? maybe people just dont like telling you where to look? i manage a wildlife garden and its pretty common to see adders and common lizards basking out in the open


----------



## Aconite

I must admit I was very privileged to have parents who were both highly intelligent and totally lacking in fear. 
So they encouraged me to learn and also placed few limits on what I could try. 
Then again another privilege was growing up in game reserves all over Angola and Africa for the first 18 years of my life.

Some people would have hated this and not call it a privilege. My brother is s**t scared of anything that moves. He reacts violently to threat. I see the wonder in things and he sees the danger. He got stung by a scorpion and killed it. I never kill anything. 
We used to remove large spiders with tennis rackets. It is the best way to move a huge spider and not hurt it. (I am scared of spiders, but still, there is no need to hurt what you can move.)

People react differently and cope with things in strange ways. 
I lived in a cottage at the end of my folks garden. (It was abandoned and had no ceiling, no electricity and was full of bugs etc, but it was better than living with them, I was a teenager, they drove me mad!) 
So I just gave it a good clean, placed a chair over where the scorpions had their home and gave the biggest spider a name and called him my pet. 
Later my brother took over that cottage when I moved out. All creatures were exterminated. It got a ceiling, lights and a new coat of paint. 
Personally my little place with all the geckos on the window and the life inside was far better. But I guess it is not for everyone.


----------



## mad martin

LOL @ reef. If the opportunity arises take it 



> From what I hear, most researchers now believe the great white to be intelligent enough to tell the difference between a seal and a surfer. Supposedly it's the churning water that distorts the image and confuses the shark, at which point it feels the object, like martin said, with it's teeth. That's why so many people live. the shark quickly realises it's mistake and leaves you alone. Not much consolation when you're bleeding to death, but if a great white meant it, I firmly believe no human could possibly fight one off.


Yes, they are fearsome but certainly not the vicious maneaters people believe them to be. Your last sentence is actually spot on. Few people understand how big it really is.
Take five large strides and you have its length. Then take a nice big step to the left or right of your "line" and you have its width. Then, just under chest height and you have its height (more or less) with a closed mouth. Then you imagine that thing weighing around 600kg. The imagine that thing has a mouth filled with Shogun steak knives. Then imagine that thing rushing with those shoguns into your flesh at a speed faster than your mom drives, and you will have a fair idea of the damage it will cause if it meant to kill you.


----------



## reef

ViperLover said:


> Wildlife in the UK is extremely hard to find, but if one is patient, and waits then everything can be found.
> 
> Reptiles are the hardest things to find here IMO, I have only ever seen one native snake in my life...a Grass Snake, and that was by chance. if it hadn't of moved, I would never of seen it.



walk into my garden lift up a rock and you will find frogs ,toads ,newts and various inverts .
Stay up late and you will see the foxes cross my lawn , look under bushes you will find hedgies , out my back gate by the canal ,grassies , voles mice rats and common lizards 

How hard is that ?


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> Reptiles are the hardest things to find here


found this in my back garden last week


----------



## mad martin

My favourite British animal are Badgers. They are just uniquely designed 
I found one near Birmingham in the woods.


----------



## exoticsadmirer

Well there was a nice field opposite the house that i could all sorts in never saw a snake found a shed of a grass but then it got built on and most of the animals have ran onto private property that as a teenager i can't go in or anyone else to be honest. But there is alot of wildlife around there's a tree that always has a bat species in it that i don't know and a barn owl that comes around that i called george and there are som pole cats or something like that near by. so it's quite diverse species around my area not seen any lizards yet though.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

I remember reading rodney fox's account of the attack he sustained. He equated the initial bite to being hit by a train. Since every organ in the left side of his body was compressed into the right side, he may be on the right track.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

wildlifewarrior said:


> found this in my back garden last week
> image


Hedgehog right?


----------



## mad martin

I certainly don't envy anyone that has been through a Great White attack. They are really fast, really strong and really clever. Close to the ultimate predator, and certainly not something to have disrespect for. The sea is their kingdom.


----------



## ViperLover

Martin,

What are the ultimate predators in your opinion?


----------



## SWMorelia

humans are IMO


----------



## Aconite

In response to the one post about cage diving. (Sorry, totally off topic, but then again so were the lions.)
I have noticed people in the Cape are saying fatalities have risen since they allowed cage diving to take place.
I watch my snakes and how they go for heat rather than the smell of the food sometimes and I wonder if the sharks are also getting the signals mixed in some way now that the smell of humans in cages is being mixed with the smell of the food they are given to lure them into the area where they are watched. 
I know that in the Maldives no one is allowed to feed sharks anymore at all and there are no longer fatalities. 
Totally off topic I know, but I wonder Martin, do they cage dive in Mozambique and what is your spin on it. I have never cage dived and dont intend to. 

Also, great that the water is warm, I might be able to get my husband to dive with me too then, he is so fussy. He has a different comfort level to me.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

mad martin said:


> I certainly don't envy anyone that has been through a Great White attack. They are really fast, really strong and really clever. Close to the ultimate predator, and certainly not something to have disrespect for. The sea is their kingdom.


That is precisely why it annoys me when people go shark hunting after an attack. I can see why people would feel strongly if a family member got shredded, but they were in the sea after all. You'd only have cause to complain if the great white kicked your front door down and ate your kids while they were in bed. You step into the sea, and the shark sets the terms and conditions.


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> Martin,
> 
> What are the ultimate predators in your opinion?


you are

.....you could drive anyone to suicide


----------



## mad martin

Large game: 
Leopards are probably the finest predators. They have all the tools and the intelligence to use it to their advantage.
Smaller animals:
Honey Badgers. Ruthless and tenacious. 

It depends. I mean Dragonflies are awesome predators too, but in their "world".


----------



## reef

viperlover said:


> martin,
> 
> what are the ultimate predators in your opinion?


ex wives !!!


----------



## terciopelo_dave

Aconite said:


> In response to the one post about cage diving. (Sorry, totally off topic, but then again so were the lions.)
> I have noticed people in the Cape are saying fatalities have risen since they allowed cage diving to take place.
> I watch my snakes and how they go for heat rather than the smell of the food sometimes and I wonder if the sharks are also getting the signals mixed in some way now that the smell of humans in cages is being mixed with the smell of the food they are given to lure them into the area where they are watched.
> I know that in the Maldives no one is allowed to feed sharks anymore at all and there are no longer fatalities.
> Totally off topic I know, but I wonder Martin, do they cage dive in Mozambique and what is your spin on it. I have never cage dived and dont intend to.
> 
> Also, great that the water is warm, I might be able to get my husband to dive with me too then, he is so fussy. He has a different comfort level to me.


I heard that too. Apparently the attacks have risen becasue tour boats were taking tourists out in cages and baiting the water to attract the sharks. Subsequently the sharks have both been more numerous and associating boats with food. Hence the problem.


----------



## SWMorelia

mad martin said:


> Large game:
> Leopards are probably the finest predators. They have all the tools and the intelligence to use it to their advantage.
> Smaller animals:
> Honey Badgers. Ruthless and tenacious.
> 
> It depends. I mean Dragonflies are awesome predators too, but in their "world".


But in any world with the right tools humans can take out anything.....
Elephants lions bears etc are all limited to what they can do...... 
Us, we can do the lot...


----------



## mad martin

> Totally off topic I know, but I wonder Martin, do they cage dive in Mozambique and what is your spin on it


There are probably private guys that do it, but none I know of. I don't like cage diving. It takes a certain kind of human being to interact with different animals. Cage diving makes someone that normally wouldn't touch a strange dog brave enough to dive with a machine. If something goes wrong, they will react with fear, making a dangerous situation even worse. I think it also teaches sharks that it isn't a problem to approach humans, making later accidents an eventuality.
Man has this innate desire to want to "tame" the wild. And when it bites you in the ass, then its nature's fault. I go dive with the sharks and accept that if something goes wrong, its just f***ing tragic.


----------



## exoticsadmirer

I think the ultimate preadtor is a penguin with a shotgun if anyone watched that futrama episode if not it's koala's


----------



## StevetheSnake

wildlifewarrior said:


> you are
> 
> .....you could drive anyone to suicide


tut tut wlw, pratice what you were preaching to me earlier this week :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## mad martin

> But in any world with the right tools humans can take out anything.....
> Elephants lions bears etc are all limited to what they can do......
> Us, we can do the lot...


An interesting point. But I do disagree, to a point. With all the tools we have, people still get lost, killed and eaten etc. What makes a man dangerous is the ability to make a controlled environment. And, revenge. Animals don't do revenge. People do. A shark kills someone, man goes out and kills 100's of sharks.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

mad martin said:


> An interesting point. But I do disagree, to a point. With all the tools we have, people still get lost, killed and eaten etc. What makes a man dangerous is the ability to make a controlled environment. And, revenge. Animals don't do revenge. People do. A shark kills someone, man goes out and kills 100's of sharks.


A human can only take out anything if they are carrying a .50 cal rifle. Take them out of their comfort zone and we are vulnerable and weak. Our brain makes us a top predator as we can make weapons and organis teams. But get a human alone and unarmed, or in an alien environment such as the sea, and we are next to useless. We don't even do our strengths well. We can work as a team, I give you the ant. We can use weapons, I give you the venomous snake. etc.


----------



## Aconite

Going back to how lucky we are. Not appreciating what we have got.

I have always loved snakes and not really fully appreciated just how life wrecking they can be. (In some ways this is why I find this branch of the forum so important.)

But I was watching that White Witch, Black Mamba program the other night and I realized that I was looking at snakes from the eyes of someone with a passion for them. But also as a person with electricity and a car and a phone.
The program showed this woman catching the snakes in different locations and some of the people she went to had no lights in their homes. So the snake had to be caught in torchlight. 
I cannot begin to imagine the kind of fear that people who live like that must endure when they know that a mamba can come in at any time and they have no way to see it and no one to call if it is there, and no way to get to hospital if it does bite. 

If you can watch the program do, it was very thought provoking. Especially for me maybe, as I grew up in Africa, but I never understood the hatred and fear people had for snakes. But now I can see it was ignorance on my part too, of them and their reality.


----------



## SWMorelia

mad martin said:


> An interesting point. But I do disagree, to a point. With all the tools we have, people still get lost, killed and eaten etc. What makes a man dangerous is the ability to make a controlled environment. And, revenge. Animals don't do revenge. People do. A shark kills someone, man goes out and kills 100's of sharks.


The question was ultimate predator, though. Humans can and do kill every other species, including their own....
I don't believe a Great white has ever taken out an Elephant or vice versa...
We have taken out both, easily....
When has an Elephant ever hunted a Grizzly bear.....
IMO it's Humans on a technicality...


----------



## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> An interesting point. But I do disagree, to a point. With all the tools we have, people still get lost, killed and eaten etc. What makes a man dangerous is the ability to make a controlled environment. And, revenge. Animals don't do revenge. People do. A shark kills someone, man goes out and kills 100's of sharks.


 
At the end of the day, it's the same all around.

If you're out in the wilds of Africa, and you come across a Black Mamba, if you get bitten..it's your own fault. - Shoulda left the animal alone.

If you take a swim in the Nile, and just happen to be grabbed by a Croc, or killed by a Hippo..Again, it's your own fault....Keep out of the water

It doesnt matter what animal it is, if you screw up, its you're own fault. If Man left Beast alone, then accidents would become all the more rare and everyone would be happy....but as Martin said, people take revenge....If an accident happens, and somebody died, then the animals become blaimed and are more hated, Why blame the animal? it was that paticular individuals fault for f****ing with the animal in the first place.


----------



## SWMorelia

terciopelo_dave said:


> A human can only take out anything if they are carrying a .50 cal rifle. *Take them out of their comfort zone and we are vulnerable and weak*. Our brain makes us a top predator as we can make weapons and organis teams.* But get a human alone and unarmed, or in an alien environment such as the sea,* and we are next to useless. We don't even do our strengths well. We can work as a team, I give you the ant. We can use weapons, I give you the venomous snake. etc.


Granted..... But put an Elephant in the sea with a great white or a great white in the bush with an elephant and it's a no brainer who will win.... But put a human in any of these environments and the human can and does come out on top....


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> At the end of the day, it's the same all around.
> 
> If you're out in the wilds of Africa, and you come across a Black Mamba, if you get bitten..it's your own fault. - Shoulda left the animal alone.
> 
> If you take a swim in the Nile, and just happen to be grabbed by a Croc, or killed by a Hippo..Again, it's your own fault....Keep out of the water


you should do a survial program like Bear Grylls



ViperLover said:


> If Man left Beast alone,


Beast? what is this ,buffy the vampire slayer?


----------



## reef

wildlifewarrior said:


> you should do a survial program like Bear Grylls
> 
> id watch :whistling2:
> 
> Beast? what is this ,buffy the vampire slayer?


James the venomous slayer


----------



## mad martin

James, in Africa its not easy to avoid animals.
Keep in mind that millions make use of the rivers for drinking water. Elephants often raid farmers crops etc. Animals clash with man often.



> The question was ultimate predator, though. Humans can and do kill every other species, including their own....
> I don't believe a Great white has ever taken out an Elephant or vice versa...
> We have taken out both, easily....
> When has an Elephant ever hunted a Grizzly bear.....
> IMO it's Humans on a technicality...


Well if we get technical, the ultimate predators are inverts. Malaria mosquitoes and Tsetse flies. Both kill animals and people with little discrimination. The fact that they don't kill grizzlies is a location thing. Even with all our brain strength etc. malaria still kills millions.


----------



## wildlifewarrior

reef said:


> James the venomous slayer


venomous lover would be more practical


----------



## Aconite

I totally agree Martin. If you cant interact with the wild animal on its own terms the you dont belong there. 
I think the maldives have really done a brilliant job in how they force people to interact with nature, but not disturb it at all. It is not even legal to put down anchor in the maldives. You have to dive down and tie an anchor to a specific spot that has been erected. You are not allowed to let your fins touch the sand or the coral and you are not allowed to touch anything at all with your hands. 
It means there is so much more respect and the animals seem totally oblivious to your presence. I swam with loads of sharks (small 4-5 foot max.) and did not feel at all stressed. It was by far the most calming and almost religious experience of my life.


----------



## SWMorelia

mad martin said:


> James, in Africa its not easy to avoid animals.
> Keep in mind that millions make use of the rivers for drinking water. Elephants often raid farmers crops etc. Animals clash with man often.
> 
> 
> 
> Well if we get technical, the ultimate predators are inverts. Malaria mosquitoes and Tsetse flies. Both kill animals and people with little discrimination. The fact that they don't kill grizzlies is a location thing. Even with all our brain strength etc. malaria still kills millions.


But with mozzy nets and insectacide we can overt their attack on us.....
Predator IMO is something that specifically goes out to kill a specific thing.....
Nothing random about it....


----------



## terciopelo_dave

ViperLover said:


> At the end of the day, it's the same all around.
> 
> If you're out in the wilds of Africa, and you come across a Black Mamba, if you get bitten..it's your own fault. - Shoulda left the animal alone.
> 
> If you take a swim in the Nile, and just happen to be grabbed by a Croc, or killed by a Hippo..Again, it's your own fault....Keep out of the water
> 
> It doesnt matter what animal it is, if you screw up, its you're own fault. If Man left Beast alone, then accidents would become all the more rare and everyone would be happy....but as Martin said, people take revenge....If an accident happens, and somebody died, then the animals become blaimed and are more hated, Why blame the animal? it was that paticular individuals fault for f****ing with the animal in the first place.


Not true. Most of the accidents with wild animals occur with indigenous people. Usually they are just going about their lives and trying to grow food to feed their family. Most snake bites occur through someone treading on an unseen snake or running into it in a hen house or something. Most large animal attacks occur through unexpected encounters. I'd stake big money on attacks by deliberate contact making up less than 1% of the global total.


----------



## mad martin

@aconite: It comes down to respect. Most people should just stay at home. Something silly, look at a zoo. If people had respect it wouldn't be necessary to hire someone to pick up trash every day, since people would actually use the dustbins provided.


----------



## ViperLover

When you are in an animals territory, you cannot simply say "If that animal strikes, bites and/or kills me...its the animals fault"

An animal has the right to deffend it's territory, the same as Humans would deffend their houses...IE the Americans would shoot intruders....Well a crocodile doesn't have a gun...It does however have emence stregnth and is an A-pex predator....Same context, different situations.


----------



## Aconite

Martin and all,
A quick quote from my Dad who is currently in Angola. He is an ecologist, so I am sure his figures are right ...

The mosquitoes are coming out - not enough DDT spraying here - so I must go and put on some Peaceful Sleep. They have a new insect repellent advertised on radio here called Super Tox - I guess it is pretty lethal - so I will stick to taking my anti-malarial pills - especially as malaria is the cause of 75% of deaths here - resulting in a life expectancy of 42 years!


----------



## exoticsadmirer

I think in a lot of places around the world nature and man clashes and more fatalaties happen because someone finds a dangerous animal in their homoe or garden and don't what to do or when people go on nature walks there are freak attacks by animals but that is because they are either old or ill and people are easy prey.


----------



## mad martin

> But with mozzy nets and insectacide we can overt their attack on us.....
> Predator IMO is something that specifically goes out to kill a specific thing.....
> Nothing random about it.


.

If those things were effective, malaria wouldn't kill so many people. Insecticide and nets are almost as helpful as a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. They work, but their success is limited.
The mozzies are also not random, neither are tsetse flies. They look for a specific kind of blood with the right nutrients. Tsetse flies for example, prefer cattle blood. But they will take human blood if nothing else can be found. Malaria mosquitoes use human blood because of the abundance of a food source.


----------



## mad martin

@aconite: spot on  I use malaria pills, insecticides like peaceful sleep and stay under the nets during the evenings and I have had malaria three times.


----------



## SWMorelia

mad martin said:


> .
> 
> If those things were effective, malaria wouldn't kill so many people. Insecticide and nets are almost as helpful as a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. They work, but their success is limited.
> The mozzies are also not random, neither are tsetse flies. They look for a specific kind of blood with the right nutrients. Tsetse flies for example, prefer cattle blood. But they will take human blood if nothing else can be found. Malaria mosquitoes use human blood because of the abundance of a food source.


So my donation to 'Red nose day' for nets was a waste of money????
We were led to believe that if we bought x thousand nets that the problem could be over come....


----------



## ViperLover

Hang on:

Animals in the garden or home...Now the aussies come into play with this...I was talking to a friend of my mums who lives in Sydney...He said, in the Summer, Tiger snakes are extremely common around Sydney, you will find them just about anywhere. Most tiger snake bites, occur because people cannot identify the snake, they try to remove it theirself and get bitten. Or the snakes are in the long grass, and people hike with inappropiate footwear and clothing. IMO, if you ignore the big sign that says "CAUTION: Venomous Tiger Snakes in Long Grass" then you are pretty much ignoring the fact that you are in an animals natural territory.


----------



## mad martin

> So my donation to 'Red nose day' for nets was a waste of money????
> We were led to believe that if we bought x thousand nets that the problem could be over come....


The problem will never be overcome with nets. Not ever. To give you an idea of the numbers of mosquitoes. Get out of the car to answer nature's call and you lok like you are wearing grey clothes. You are literally covered in thousands of mosquitoes.


----------



## Aconite

My Dad doest seem to know what Malaria is anymore, he comes home from a trip with a cold and days later the doctor says hmm, so your almost dead again. You are too old to be doing this. 

Man sure has a go at destroying things though. I was born in Angola as my Dad set up game and nature reserves there to protect the Giant Sable and other species. My mom catalogued birds. 
Then the war started and we had to leave. Now my Dad is back 30 years later to see if anything can be done to get it back on track and he has to use military armored vehicles to drive from one place to another due to the land mines. The animals are pretty much all dead. Even the birds have gone. All that is left is litter, poverty and illness. I have seen the photos. It is mind blowing that a war can do to a land.


----------



## exoticsadmirer

So what happened to the Giant Sable shot or fled?


----------



## SWMorelia

mad martin said:


> The problem will never be overcome with nets. Not ever. To give you an idea of the numbers of mosquitoes. Get out of the car to answer nature's call and you lok like you are wearing grey clothes. You are literally covered in thousands of mosquitoes.


Thats a shocking revelation, for me.... I'll be onto them come Monday and asking why we were fed BS


----------



## mad martin

@aconite: but with enough effort everything recovers. Look at what the war did to Mozambique, and when you go there now, the signs of war are really only written on the buildings.


----------



## mad martin

> Thats a shocking revelation, for me.... I'll be onto them come Monday and asking why we were fed BS


Also, feel free to ask them to whom these nets were donated. The only nets I have seen are nets the local people make for themselves.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

ViperLover said:


> Hang on:
> 
> Animals in the garden or home...Now the aussies come into play with this...I was talking to a friend of my mums who lives in Sydney...He said, in the Summer, Tiger snakes are extremely common around Sydney, you will find them just about anywhere. Most tiger snake bites, occur because people cannot identify the snake, they try to remove it theirself and get bitten. Or the snakes are in the long grass, and people hike with inappropiate footwear and clothing. IMO, if you ignore the big sign that says "CAUTION: Venomous Tiger Snakes in Long Grass" then you are pretty much ignoring the fact that you are in an animals natural territory.


Australia barely even figures in worldwide snake bite stats, so to quote them as a example is naive. Having never been there, I can only suspect, but I doubt many asian paddy fields or african farmlands carry such clear warning signs.


----------



## mad martin

LOL @ Dave. There are signs for minefields, but not for snakes


----------



## Malc

Guys, you are missing one vital point in the debate that humans are the top predator, in that all the arguments have used technology in the form of weapons of one form or another. On the evolution tree, we simply can't compete against sharks, lions, crocs etc on an equal footing. We don't have teeth as sharp and dangerous as the Gt White, nor claws as deadly as a tigers, or tusks, horns, stings etc, if you follow my drift.


----------



## ViperLover

terciopelo_dave said:


> Australia barely even figures in worldwide snake bite stats, so to quote them as a example is naive. Having never been there, I can only suspect, but I doubt many asian paddy fields or african farmlands carry such clear warning signs.


 
Yeah, but I was using the arrogence of the educated people as an example.


----------



## ViperLover

Malc said:


> Guys, you are missing one vital point in the debate that humans are the top predator, in that all the arguments have used technology in the form of weapons of one form or another. On the evolution tree, we simply can't compete against sharks, lions, crocs etc on an equal footing. We don't have teeth as sharp and dangerous as the Gt White, nor claws as deadly as a tigers, or tusks, horns, stings etc, if you follow my drift.


 
You are 100% correct.

Take all our tools away, we're nothing.


----------



## SWMorelia

mad martin said:


> Also, feel free to ask them to whom these nets were donated. The only nets I have seen are nets the local people make for themselves.


They are being given out this weekend by 'celebrity' visitors.....
We will get a tv programme in a week or so telling us how 'effective' they have been....


----------



## terciopelo_dave

mad martin said:


> LOL @ Dave. There are signs for minefields, but not for snakes


Not entirely sure that would warrant LOL. I wouldn't laugh at a minefield.
Anyway peeps, my rats have thawed so I'm off to do some feeding. Back soon though.


----------



## moodyblue1969

ViperLover said:


> Yeah, but I was using the arrogence of the educated people as an example.


 just because someone can read or write doesnt make them educated.someone who is self sufficient and can survive wilderness is more educated imo


----------



## Aconite

Ja, things will come right. 
I must find a letter from him from a few months ago. They took loads of researchers with them for a 2 month field trip and I have a list of all the species they found. It was incredible. Really reassuring. Some that had never been found before. 

Here is another extract from my dad from this trip:

Out here in Luanda the kids seem to have a great time despite the dust, dirt, piles of litter - and the all-pervading stink of - well, everything! Amazing how the ultra wealthy live next door to the pitifully opor - yet the poor look more happy in their poverty than the excessively conspicuously rich in their massive 4x4s with indoor video screens and tinted windows and booming noise boxes.

It has just gone six pm and sunset - Instead of the melodious song of the Rufous-tailed Morning Warbler - that used to sing to us at sunset in Quicama, there is only the chatter of sparrows in the cashew nut tress around the hotel grounds.

Despite everything, Angola is moving forward - huge investment in infrastructure - all the work done by Chinese - but with a 2010 national budget of $42 billion - one third of Norway's - the country is hugely rich by African standards. So most Angolan cities now have decent roads, some electricity, and a bit of water. A long way to go, but in ten years time, the country will look more like Dubai than Nairobi or Lagos.

(Gosh I hope none of this stuff is a national secret... Lets hope he never finds out I am quoting him


----------



## SWMorelia

Malc said:


> Guys, you are missing one vital point in the debate that humans are the top predator, in that all the arguments have used technology in the form of weapons of one form or another. On the evolution tree, we simply can't compete against sharks, lions, crocs etc on an equal footing. We don't have teeth as sharp and dangerous as the Gt White, nor claws as deadly as a tigers, or tusks, horns, stings etc, if you follow my drift.





ViperLover said:


> You are 100% correct.
> 
> Take all our tools away, we're nothing.


They evolved teeth etc we have evolved guns etc.... Take away their claws and teeth and se whats left....
You can always make rules to suit your chosen winner... Just let them take into battle what ever they have to hand, and humans kick ass every time... LOL


----------



## Malc

terciopelo_dave said:


> Australia barely even figures in worldwide snake bite stats, so to quote them as a example is naive.


Don't worry Dave, our young friend has been googling again....!


----------



## mad martin

> They are being given out this weekend by 'celebrity' visitors.....
> We will get a tv programme in a week or so telling us how 'effective' they have been...


.
Let me know where they were delivered, please 
Let me tell you why the net is not really effective. These people live in shacks, that are not nearly as closed up as a house. Most people also sleep outside. They also do not have proper ablutions. Sooner or later they have to get out from under the net. Food is made outside etc. The only times you can use that net is when you are sleeping, and unfortunately the mosquitoes are most active at dusk, when everyone is on their way home, cooking, washing etc.
The effectiveness of that net will probably cut down the death rate by 1%, if that.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

Malc said:


> Don't worry Dave, our young friend has been googling again....!


Apparently. Anyway, hungry snakes call. Chat soon.


----------



## Malc

SW-morelia said:


> Take away their claws and teeth and se whats left....


True, but then take away our guns, knives and insecticides and we are nothing too


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> the Americans would shoot intruders


wow thats not offensive or rude at all


----------



## exoticsadmirer

you'd end up with a brute strenght fight and i'm sorry but i don't think we'd win that one


----------



## SWMorelia

Malc said:


> True, but then take away our guns, knives and insecticides and we are nothing too


Compared to what......
Tribes men in the bush don't have technology to help them and yet they master their environment.....


----------



## ViperLover

If you take away one's brain, then everything is nothing.

Because anything can have teethm claws, a gun or a knife....but having the brain of how to use it is what counts.

I gaurantee you, without teeth and claws, an adult male lion will still put you in you're box, it has the killer instinct. The claws and teeth, just assist the animal to do the job quicker.


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> You are 100% correct.
> 
> Take all our tools away, we're nothing.


true but when you face to face with a silver backed gorilla and have no weapons to defend your self, at least you can laugh at how small its willy is and make it feel ashamed


----------



## mad martin

> Compared to what......
> Tribes men in the bush don't have technology to help them and yet they master their environment....


But the thinking and approach is different for the tribes. They don't own the land, they belong to it. They survive because they have respect for the animals that share the land. If they adopted the attitude of "educated" people, the animals will exterminate them very quickly.


----------



## Malc

SW-morelia said:


> Compared to what......
> Tribes men in the bush don't have technology to help them and yet they master their environment.....


I wouldn't say master it, more respect it and co-habit with it.


----------



## SWMorelia

mad martin said:


> But the thinking and approach is different for the tribes. They don't own the land, they belong to it. They survive because they have respect for the animals that share the land. If they adopted the attitude of "educated" people, the animals will exterminate them very quickly.


We were talking ultimate predator and whether humans respect or not is not the question.... Humans have mastered all the earths environments and been successful...
And given technology even a dip stick can front a Lion or a Tiger ....
No I stand by my call..... Humans can beat any animal given the right tools....
Hey the animals can choose their tools if they want, but I won't hold my breath that they'll ever win in a war....


----------



## Aconite

Been great to chat with you guys. But it is my bedtime now. My little demon spawn wakes anytime after 5am! 
A very informative thread, I will have lots to think about as I sleep. Thanks! About time there was some interesting debate on here.


----------



## reef

yeah nite all need my beautry sleep and BOY do i need it take care all x


----------



## ViperLover

SW-morelia said:


> We were talking ultimate predator and whether humans respect or not is not the question.... Humans have mastered all the earths environments and been successful...
> And given technology even a dip stick can front a Lion or a Tiger ....
> No I stand by my call..... Humans can beat any animal given the right tools....
> Hey the animals can choose their tools if they want, but I won't hold my breath that they'll ever win in a war....


 
Sorry, but humans when caught off guard get killed by animals all the time. If you let you're guard down with a big Scrubbie...You could certainly be killed. Its all about respecting the animal, and knowing when enough is enough, and keep;ing your whitts about you at all times.

Africa is one of the most dangerous continents in the world if you do not respect it's fauna and floura.

A human is no match for a lion, and if caught offgaurd, can be killed or seriously injured quite easilly.


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> If you let you're guard down with a big Scrubbie...


and yet you were the one telling me the other day in a thread they were virtually harmless and you would willing take the eggs away from a 12ft wc female....you change quicker than the wind



ViperLover said:


> Africa is one of the most dangerous continents in the world if you do not respect it's fauna and floura.


or stoke on a friday night


----------



## SWMorelia

ViperLover said:


> Sorry, but humans when caught off guard get killed by animals all the time. If you let you're guard down with a big Scrubbie...You could certainly be killed. Its all about respecting the animal, and knowing when enough is enough, and keep;ing your whitts about you at all times.
> 
> Africa is one of the most dangerous continents in the world if you do not respect it's fauna and floura.
> 
> A human is no match for a lion, and if caught offgaurd, can be killed or seriously injured quite easilly.


Shut up you plonka....
Catch anything off guard and it's brown bread....:lol2:
As I keep saying you asked ultimate predator.....
That means (to me) something that can hunt down and kill anything....
We can and do kill everything.... Nothing comes close to us as far as bumping things off....
Pick a species that has killed all other species.... You can't.... Humans are the only ones that are capable of doing that.... We are the ultimate predator because of that reason....


----------



## wildlifewarrior

SW-morelia said:


> As I keep saying you asked ultimate predator.....


he gets my vote: victory:


----------



## ViperLover

wildlifewarrior said:


> and yet you were the one telling me the other day in a thread they were virtually harmless and you would willing take the eggs away from a 12ft wc female....you change quicker than the wind


Yeah, because I learnt what I claimed was pathetic.


----------



## ViperLover

wildlifewarrior said:


> he gets my vote: victory:
> 
> image


 

:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:


----------



## ViperLover

SW-morelia said:


> Shut up you plonka....
> Catch anything off guard and it's brown bread....:lol2:
> As I keep saying you asked ultimate predator.....
> That means (to me) something that can hunt down and kill anything....
> We can and do kill everything.... Nothing comes close to us as far as bumping things off....
> Pick a species that has killed all other species.... You can't.... Humans are the only ones that are capable of doing that.... We are the ultimate predator because of that reason....


I would say, the ultimate predater would be something which can use its own body to kill a prey source.

Humans can kill an elephant by using a .50 cal rifle...One shot to the head, it's good-night nurse.

A Black Mamba can kill an Elephant in a single bite...and it has happened. The thing I like about a BM killing an Elephant, is that it used its own body to it's advantage...which is far more impressive then loading the mag, locking the bolt and pulling the trigger.


----------



## wildlifewarrior

hand on heart i reckon i am the ultimate sexual predator


----------



## terciopelo_dave

Microbes. Don't forget them. Without bacteria, viruses, and parasites, biting insects score a death toll of zero. Hunt down and kill any other species, all 3 check that box. Indiscriminate. check.


----------



## ViperLover

terciopelo_dave said:


> Microbes. Don't forget them. Without bacteria, viruses, and parasites, biting insects score a death toll of zero. Hunt down and kill any other species, all 3 check that box. Indiscriminate. check.


 
Nice to see you're still alive Dave.

There are some Bacteriums, and Diseases that cannot possibly be killed...like HIV for example. That too, as Dave suggested is an ultimate predator...Plus its a living thing.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

wildlifewarrior said:


> hand on heart i reckon i am the ultimate sexual predator


My arse is still stinging. And I never saw you coming. My fault though coz I walked through your natural habitat and didn't read the "warning, sexually deviant wildlife warrior lurks here" sign.
If only I'd known James. Perhaps he could've saved me from sodomy.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

ViperLover said:


> Nice to see you're still alive Dave.
> 
> There are some Bacteriums, and Diseases that cannot possibly be killed...like HIV for example. That too, as Dave suggested is an ultimate predator...Plus its a living thing.


Just to pick you up there James, no virus can be killed because they ARE NOT living things. They do not respire, feed, breed, etc. They do nothing that catagorises them as a "living" organism. They simply copy themselves. Bacteria are alive, viruses not so.


----------



## ViperLover

terciopelo_dave said:


> My arse is still stinging. And I never saw you coming. My fault though coz I walked through your natural habitat and didn't read the "warning, sexually deviant wildlife warrior lurks here" sign.
> If only I'd known James. Perhaps he could've saved me from sodomy.


 
The irony of you posting that just makes me laugh....


----------



## terciopelo_dave

ViperLover said:


> The irony of you posting that just makes me laugh....


I know me well enough to know that the only way that could be deemed ironic is if you are gay? Am I right? Actually, forget it. A person's sexuality is better left to the off topic chat, and even then I couldn't care less.


----------



## ViperLover

terciopelo_dave said:


> I know me well enough to know that the only way that could be deemed ironic is if you are gay? Am I right? Actually, forget it. A person's sexuality is better left to the off topic chat, and even then I couldn't care less.


 
The sign bit, was what I found ironic. And no I am deffinately NOT gay :bash:


----------



## wildlifewarrior

terciopelo_dave said:


> If only I'd known James. Perhaps he could've saved me from sodomy.


 wowowowowowowow...am a sexual predator, not desperate....give me some credit will you


----------



## terciopelo_dave

ViperLover said:


> The sign bit, was what I found ironic. And no I am deffinately NOT gay :bash:


Look on wikipedia for the definition of irony. You'll understand why I said what I did and why my reference to the sign was NOT ironic.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

wildlifewarrior said:


> wowowowowowowow...am a sexual predator, not desperate....give me some credit will you


I didn't mean you'd :censor: him, just that he may be aware of a method of sneaking up on you in your natural habitat, camera in hand, and steering me away from danger. Hell if you were screwing a lion he'd be laughing.


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> And no I am deffinately NOT gay :bash:


who said you were gay?


----------



## wildlifewarrior

terciopelo_dave said:


> Hell if you were screwing a lion he'd be laughing.


nah never again...the scratch marks on my back were worse then that from, a menopausly woman


----------



## terciopelo_dave

Maybe, but you could dine out on THAT story for decades..... "oh this, well, I was shagging a lion...."
Legend.


----------



## Grond

Interesting thread! 

Enjoyed the pics.

And strangely the lion story......:whistling2:


----------



## stuartdouglas

ViperLover said:


> Sorry, but humans when caught off guard get killed by animals all the time. *If you let you're guard down with a big Scrubbie...You could certainly be killed.* Its all about respecting the animal, and knowing when enough is enough, and keep;ing your whitts about you at all times.
> 
> Africa is one of the most dangerous continents in the world if you do not respect it's fauna and floura.
> 
> A human is no match for a lion, and if caught offgaurd, can be killed or seriously injured quite easilly.


 

F.F.S S.T.F.U:bash:


----------



## Owzy

The phrase 'we are not laughing with you but at you' springs to mind!


----------



## SWMorelia

ViperLover said:


> There a
> re some Bacteriums,


I have one thing to say to you...
DEMESTOS.......... Kills 99.9% of all known germs.....
NO two things......
And 
FIRE for the other 0.1%
Both man made ....
As for using their own body with no weapons to do the deed.....
Watch this
YouTube - Alexander's Favorite Fight Scenes - Part 1: Ong Bak
or this
Humans are adaptable and have intelligence to master their surroundings....

YouTube - Tony Jaa MV - Revenge of a thai man -Tom Yum Goong



wildlifewarrior said:


> he gets my vote: victory:


Arnie took him out .... And he's a man.......



stuartdouglas said:


> F.F.S S.T.F.U:bash:


Less cryptic Stu......... You've tried twice and missed the mark....
I think you need to spell it out.....


----------



## ViperLover

SW-morelia said:


> I have one thing to say to you...
> *DEMESTOS*.......... Kills 99.9% of all known germs.....
> NO two things......
> And
> *FIRE for the other 0.1%*
> Both man made ....


 
Demestos may kill Bacteria, but it doesn't eliminate even half of that amount of Virus's.

Fire isn't man-made LOL....It was discovered, but fire was tearing through the wildnerness' long before Humans were around.


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> Demestos may kill Bacteria, but it doesn't eliminate even half of that amount of Virus's.
> 
> Fire isn't man-made LOL....It was discovered, but fire was tearing through the wildnerness' long before Humans were around.


who ever can kill you can be crownd the greatest predator EVER


----------



## squaccy

ViperLover said:


> Demestos may kill Bacteria, but it doesn't eliminate even half of that amount of Virus's.
> 
> Fire isn't man-made LOL....It was discovered, but fire was tearing through the wildnerness' long before Humans were around.


coz domestos idiot isn't made to be an anti viral its meant to clean a toilet and rid your backside of poo germs. 

Mind you, next time you get flu how about swallowing some. you never know...


----------



## SWMorelia

ViperLover said:


> Demestos may kill Bacteria, but it doesn't eliminate even half of that amount of Virus's.
> 
> Fire isn't man-made LOL....It was discovered, but fire was tearing through the wildnerness' long before Humans were around.


But we can make fire, can't we... i.e. Man made....
Plus we can also utilise it as and when we want........



wildlifewarrior said:


> who ever can kill you can be crownd the greatest predator EVER


Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me 
I want to do it.

Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me 
I want to do it.
Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me 
I want to do it.

Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me 
I want to do it.
Please....


----------



## squaccy

however, this thread at the beginning when only the intelligent were commenting on it was very interesting. I'm too scared to get venomous reptiles which is why I'm staying far away from them, but they are fascinating! 
I especially enjoyed the pictures, thank you  :no1:


----------



## SWMorelia

squaccy said:


> however, this thread at the beginning when only the intelligent were commenting on it was very interesting. I'm too scared to get venomous reptiles which is why I'm staying far away from them, but they are fascinating!
> I especially enjoyed the pictures, thank you  :no1:


Yep...... Totally agree....
I have a few friends that keep venomous, some even have the top most venomous in their collections, and I have utmost respect for the way they 'handle them' with no stress or drama.... I can never forget that one end has a sharp bit, and because of that I'm never going to make it as a handler.....
Knowing your limitations and staying in your comfort zone is the key with these animals... IMO.


----------



## squaccy

SW-morelia said:


> Yep...... Totally agree....
> I have a few friends that keep venomous, some even have the top most venomous in their collections, and I have utmost respect for the way they 'handle them' with no stress or drama.... I can never forget that one end has a sharp bit, and because of that I'm never going to make it as a handler.....
> *Knowing your limitations and staying in your comfort zone is the key with these animals... IMO.*


Right on


----------



## ScottGB

God I don't think Bob Monkhouse (god bless his soul) could have covered all these subjects, From pinning snakes, to using your left or right hand, to lions, tigers, bears, crocs, sharks, mossy's, germs, and I'm afraid it won't be the last before it gets back to the original subject. Demestos!!!! So did they need to use Demestos after shooting two girls one cup???? Viperlove you might find the answer if you google it.


----------



## wildlifewarrior

SW-morelia said:


> But we can make fire, can't we... i.e. Man made....
> Plus we can also utilise it as and when we want........
> 
> 
> Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me
> I want to do it.
> 
> Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me
> I want to do it.
> Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me
> I want to do it.
> 
> Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me
> I want to do it.
> Please....


no you cant:whip:...Mr manlove hey? you tool



squaccy said:


> when only the intelligent were commenting on it was very interesting.


i am intelligetn, i can count to potato


----------



## SWMorelia

ScottGB said:


> God I don't think Bob Monkhouse (god bless his soul) could have covered all these subjects, From pinning snakes, to using your left or right hand, to lions, tigers, bears, crocs, sharks, mossy's, germs, and I'm afraid it won't be the last before it gets back to the original subject. Demestos!!!!* So did they need to use Demestos after shooting two girls one cup????* Viperlove you might find the answer if you google it.


Tooth paste and mouth wash at the very least.......:lol2:


----------



## squaccy

wildlifewarrior said:


> no you cant:whip:...Mr manlove hey? you tool
> 
> 
> i am intelligetn, i can count to potato


*pats head* there there you can be intelligent if you want deary


----------



## SWMorelia

wildlifewarrior said:


> no you cant:whip:...Mr manlove hey? you tool


Well it was either that or the Grand wizard.............and I thought that was best not written....... LOL
So it arrived then finally......


----------



## ScottGB

Surely that would only slightly sweeten their breath. LOl.
So Martin how did that head pinning thing go again?????


----------



## wildlifewarrior

squaccy said:


> *pats head* there there you can be intelligent if you want deary


:flrt:


SW-morelia said:


> Well it was either that or the Grand wizard.............and I thought that was best not written....... LOL
> So it arrived then finally......


yea but the funniest part was i wasnt in when the postman came, so he wrote it on the card and posted it through the door:lol2:


----------



## stuartdouglas

SW-morelia said:


> F.F.S, S.T.F.U
> Less cryptic Stu......... You've tried twice and missed the mark....
> I think you need to spell it out.....


 
For F:censor:s Sake, Shut The F:censor: Up..............


----------



## SWMorelia

stuartdouglas said:


> For F:censor:s Sake, Shut The F:censor: Up..............


:2thumb:
And now the name so it's not ambiguous.....:whistling2:
We know where it's directed but 'HE' has special reading techniques to miss out the intended message......
:devil:


----------



## Pinwallace

ViperLover said:


> Sorry, but humans when caught off guard get killed by animals all the time. If you let you're guard down with a big Scrubbie...You could certainly be killed. Its all about respecting the animal, and knowing when enough is enough, and keep;ing your whitts about you at all times.
> 
> Africa is one of the most dangerous continents in the world if you do not respect it's fauna and floura.
> 
> A human is no match for a lion, and if caught offgaurd, can be killed or seriously injured quite easilly.


What exactly are you trying to achieve?
Ive quoted only one of many ridiculous posts by you, are you trying to wind people up? Its obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about. In your posts you either offer bulls**t advice and pretend to be an expert or you make a general statement so obvious that even people like you know its true. We are not interested in learning that "a human is no match for a lion" Go and play somewhere else.

PS - Thanks martin for another very informative post. Great photos too :notworthy:


----------



## mad martin

Only a pleasure.


----------



## ScottGB

mad martin said:


> Only a pleasure.


The pleasure is all ours!!!

Are you gonna be uploading any of these tips on youtube????


----------



## mad martin

I uploaded a video on working with Black Mambas awhile ago.

YouTube - Black Mamba handling

I also put a thread on here of other videos I have made


----------



## mad martin

Field Herping and the Locals

This is why I prefer working in the field

Burchell's Zebra (Equus burchellii)









Rock Dassie (Procavia capensis)









Black Backed Jackal (Canis mesomelas)









Impala (Aepyceros melampus)









Kudu (Tragelaphus strepsiceros)









Hippo (Hippopotamus amphibius)









Giraffe (Giraffa camelopardalis)









Blue Wildebeest (Connochaetes taurinus)









Square Lipped Rhino (Ceratotherium simum)


----------



## wildlifewarrior

mad martin said:


> I uploaded a video on working with Black Mambas awhile ago.
> 
> YouTube - Black Mamba handling
> 
> I also put a thread on here of other videos I have made


those photos are awesome but that video is brillant....i dont think ive seen one really that was as informative and educational, while still being enjoyable to watch.

top notch video mate, and your accent sounds proper cool:no1:


----------



## mad martin

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha thanks.
My accent is not as good as many others, but its the only one I have


----------



## paulrimmer69

great vid there martin, iv only done a bit of work with a venomoid black but still amazes me everytime how quick and clever they are, like the way you put the tub on its side, like i said before its great for the less experienced of us to watch the pro's so to speak lol


----------



## nighthunte29

i think this post is making people new to the hobby more keen to keep venomous snakes, it may make them think that they know how to handle them so all is well, great post though, id just like to remind people that they are still toying with death (not quite death in most cases but you get mmy drift)


----------



## leecb0

mad martin said:


> Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha thanks.
> My accent is not as good as many others, but its the only one I have


 i love the accent!!!!!!
it aint as bad as a stoke accent....lol
mind yaw i cor talk im from the black country ay i
yam yam's rule:lol2:


----------



## mad martin

I appreciate the compliments. Thanks


----------



## wildlifewarrior

leecb0 said:


> i love the accent!!!!!!
> it aint as bad as a stoke accent....lol


aup duck



mad martin said:


> I appreciate the compliments. Thanks


I was just wondering, you mentioned that most of the snakes you house for one reason or another are wc. Keeping alot of wc snakes my self i no how bad they can come in with mites and ticks blah blah blah...do you actually treat the snakes that have these before placing them into a vivarium, or do you just treat the vivarium with a pesticide spray...or is it not really a problem?

cheers


----------



## mad martin

Few snakes actually come in with mites, but ticks are extreme. I usually remove them before the animal is housed. I also have a few empty cages that stay empty, so I can rotate cages I use so I can treat them after the resident is back in the bush.


----------



## Spikebrit

wildlifewarrior said:


> aup duck


I hate that saying, bloody duck, arghhhhh

Oh and interesting thread Martin, very informative.

Jay


----------



## SWMorelia

Martin, you made that look so easy....... 
Not that it is, it just shows what confidence and experience can do....
Me....... I have neither and as I have said, I never plan on getting either....
Loved watching you do it though.... Great vid......


----------



## wildlifewarrior

mad martin said:


> Few snakes actually come in with mites, but ticks are extreme. I usually remove them before the animal is housed. I also have a few empty cages that stay empty, so I can rotate cages I use so I can treat them after the resident is back in the bush.


I see thats interesting to no. I no how hard it can be treating non-venomous snakes(treating a wc 13ft afrock with mites was a job and a half) so very cool to no: victory:


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## wildlifewarrior

SW-morelia said:


> Martin, you made that look so easy.......
> Not that it is, it just shows what confidence and experience can do....
> Me....... I have neither and as I have said, I never plan on getting either....
> Loved watching you do it though.... Great vid......


agreed, it did look a walk in the park for him...then again thats experince,knowledge and confidence for you,and one of the many reasons james was advised to start at the bottom


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## mad martin

Thanks for the compliments guys, I appreciate it. 

Honestly though, its harder removing ticks off a large Water Monitor or a massive Afrock than a Black Mamba. You can tube a Mamba


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## SWMorelia

wildlifewarrior said:


> agreed, it did look a walk in the park for him...then again thats experince,knowledge and confidence for you,and one of the many reasons james was advised to start at the bottom


But will James realise an expert makes things look easy....:whistling2:


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## wildlifewarrior

mad martin said:


> Honestly though, its harder removing ticks off a large Water Monitor or a massive Afrock than a Black Mamba.


 i still dunno, it depends really...i think i would rather do my scrubs ,afrocks and so on than a mamba....i see what you saying but prefer to stick to what i am used to....then again a mamba for you is light work:notworthy:


mad martin said:


> You can tube a Mamba


or in your case "you" tube it.....



SW-morelia said:


> But will James realise an expert makes things look easy....:whistling2:


i do make thinks look easy dont i.....oh you ment martin


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## mad martin

> i still dunno, it depends really...i think i would rather do my scrubs ,afrocks and so on than a mamba....i see what you saying but prefer to stick to what i am used to....then again a mamba for you is light work


LOL yeah true. A 4 metre wild caught Afrock is no joke though 



> or in your case "you" tube it....


With wordplay like that on a Sunday, I assume you are a teetotaller (I had to find the proper english word  )?


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## reef

SW-morelia said:


> But will James realise an expert makes things look easy....:whistling2:


:gasp: you mean he isnt an expert ???:gasp:


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## wildlifewarrior

mad martin said:


> LOL yeah true. A 4 metre wild caught Afrock is no joke though
> 
> 
> With wordplay like that on a Sunday, I assume you are a teetotaller (I had to find the proper english word  )?


actually your right, i dont drink...i get my staisfaction from making immature jokes on forums


heres my 13ft morelia amethistina friday night after a clean out of her enclosure(photo looks like shes been chocked but she anit of course, she was wriggling around ) wc and super nasty...photo was taken as a few members wanted a realistic size , normall i just use 2 large hooks.


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## mad martin

That is pretty!!


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## moodyblue1969

wildlifewarrior said:


> actually your right, i dont drink...i get my staisfaction from making immature jokes on forums
> 
> 
> heres my 13ft morelia amethistina friday night after a clean out of her enclosure(photo looks like shes been chocked but she anit of course, she was wriggling around ) wc and super nasty...photo was taken as a few members wanted a realistic size , normall i just use 2 large hooks.
> image


 i do believe ive finally seen a pic of you,holding the head end,somehow i dont think you would trust anyone else ,lovely snake btw :flrt:


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## SWMorelia

wildlifewarrior said:


> actually your right, i dont drink...i get my staisfaction from making immature jokes on forums
> 
> 
> heres my 13ft morelia amethistina friday night after a clean out of her enclosure(photo looks like shes been chocked but she anit of course, she was wriggling around ) wc and super nasty...photo was taken as a few members wanted a realistic size , normall i just use 2 large hooks.
> image


OMG... Whats that ugly lump on it's neck......
Oh it's you, sorry....
Snakewispera said what are you doing with them chavs....


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## exoticsadmirer

they look like the live food to me lol.


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## SWMorelia

exoticsadmirer said:


> they look like the live food to me lol.


I'd love to see the next pic of their smiling faces if WLW had released the head... LOL
Cruel I know, but funny... LOL


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## wildlifewarrior

mad martin said:


> That is pretty!!


thank you:flrt:



moodyblue1969 said:


> i do believe ive finally seen a pic of you,holding the head end,somehow i dont think you would trust anyone else ,lovely snake btw :flrt:


guess again, thats not mean....gessshhh i anit that ugly...thats a good friend of mine, we own alot of snakes together....plus i dont ever use gloves: victory:



SW-morelia said:


> OMG... Whats that ugly lump on it's neck......
> Oh it's you, sorry....
> Snakewispera said what are you doing with them chavs....


nah i am sexy, plus they are his kids


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## ViperLover

SW-morelia said:


> Martin, you made that look so easy.......
> Not that it is, it just shows what confidence and experience can do....
> Me....... I have neither and as I have said, I never plan on getting either....
> Loved watching you do it though.... Great vid......


What he said



Martin, an excellent video, just proves that Mambas aren't the evil things theyre made out to be if you respect them. You make it look so easy it's unreal, I know it is far from easy...You're experience with these snakes makes them second nature to you. Hats off : victory:


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## mad martin

Mambas can be very dangerous, but generally nervous and shy 
Thank you


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## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> Mambas can be very dangerous, but generally nervous and shy
> Thank you


 
Have you ever had to deal with a Mamba that is just extremely agressive, everytime you open the viv?


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## mad martin

Usually young wild caughts are very aggresive because they have nowhere to go, and are technically forced into a corner. But even then it takes quite a bit to get them to have a bash at you.


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## moodyblue1969

great video martin :notworthy:


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## ViperLover

Are adults generally more laid back then? Is it the juviniles that are most agressive?


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## mad martin

Adults can be dangerous due to their large size, but juveniles under 8 feet are certainly quicker to defend themselves. Its because they still have natural predators, and adults rarely struggle with that problem

@moodyblue: thank you


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## mad martin

To give you a size perception, this girl is big, but pretty average for an adult.
Excuse the pic, the "camera man" wasn't too excited


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## exoticsadmirer

Are all your animals WC or do you own any of them as in bought or LTC?


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## mad martin

I don't own any animals anymore, only wild caughts for release.
I still have a few that are technically on loan though.


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## mad martin

Animals on loan include:
4 Red Spitting Cobras
2 Papuan Taipans
2 East African Gaboons
1 King Cobra
2 Suphan Cobras
3 Chinese Cobras
7 Monocle Cobras
2 Morrocan Cobras
2 West African Forest Cobras
2 Black Spitting Cobras
4 Black Mambas
2 Green Mambas


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## exoticsadmirer

Thats a big list of loan animals.


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## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> To give you a size perception, this girl is big, but pretty average for an adult.
> Excuse the pic, the "camera man" wasn't too excited
> 
> image


 
Thankyou


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## mad martin

@exoticsadmirer: there are quite a few more, these are just off the top of the head


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## wildlifewarrior

mad martin said:


> @exoticsadmirer: there are quite a few more, these are just off the top of the head


do you want to loan viperlover off us?
because your posts are so informative we will even let you keep him...just for the love of god keep your vivs/rooms locked


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## exoticsadmirer

If that's of the top of your head i'm suprised you have any room left! Unless there is a seperate shed or building for them.


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## SWMorelia

wildlifewarrior said:


> *do you want to loan viperlover off us?*
> because your posts are so informative we will even let you keep him...just for the love of god keep your vivs/rooms locked


I'll pay for the ticket.....
One way should be enough,:whistling2: don't want to waste the return journey part of it once he sees them Lions an all that...:lol2:


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## mad martin

Before meeting my lady, I was kind of a recluse. No friends etc. so my house was my hot room. My "coffee table" housed my King, my bathroom was the Mamba cage and so on.


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## SWMorelia

mad martin said:


> Before meeting my lady, I was kind of a recluse. No friends etc. so my house was my hot room. My "coffee table" housed my King, my bathroom was the Mamba cage and so on.


Thats childs play...... You ain't had a James yet, have you????
You think you're man enough for that..... 
It'll make a couple of months in a viv seem like a walk in the park:whistling2:


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## mad martin

LOL ha ha ha ha ha


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## wildlifewarrior

mad martin said:


> my bathroom was the Mamba cage and so on.


without sounding daft i dunno if i could have a poo while something watched me....while we were decorating the kitchen i had to put the birds in the bath room for 3 days...and i had to put towels over them while i had a wee, as i couldnt go while they watched me:blush:


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## mad martin

Well...... the mambas help you "go" faster


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## reef

mad martin said:


> Well...... the mambas help you "go" faster



I think we just found a cure for constipation ( although we seem to have a member with verbal diahreoa (sp) )


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## wildlifewarrior

mad martin said:


> Well...... the mambas help you "go" faster


:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:

mambas...cure for constipation


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## wildlifewarrior

reef said:


> I think we just found a cure for constipation ( although we seem to have a member with verbal diahreoa (sp) )


nooooooooooooo you said it before me:whip:


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## reef

wildlifewarrior said:


> nooooooooooooo you said it before me:whip:


na na nannannana !!!!


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## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> Well...... the mambas help you "go" faster


 
Certainly won't be any cases of "skiving" with a big mamba in the bog...:whistling2:


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## exoticsadmirer

i'll take the offer of a one way ticket in a couple of years though need to finish college first.


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## Malc

Martin, a very informative video, you come over as confident and have an air of coolness in how you moved the mamba's in and out of the tubs, which I would say came from all your years of experience.

Having said that can I just make an observation. You stated that they react to movement and that you never (for obvious reasons) should place your hands in or near the tub, yet when you placed the newspaper back in the blue tub (when viewed from above) you placed it in the top with your hands and then gave it a tap / push to push the paper back inside the tub. Wouldn't it of been safer to of placed the paper back in the tub with the tongs?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not nit-picking or trying to teach you to suck eggs so to speak, it's just appeared to me as being a bit risky and contradictory of what you had already stated earlier.


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## mad martin

A good point, but at that stage all the snake wants to do is hide. Biting is the last thing on its mind.


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## mustang100893

reef said:


> I think we just found a cure for constipation ( although we seem to have a member with *v*erbal *d*iahreoa (sp) )


Heard VD's a B***ard to rid of :2thumb:


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## stuartdouglas

No, VL is a :censor: to get rid of!!!!


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## Genseric

If the mighty Green and White army had have qualified for the World Cup I would have certainly penned in an extension to visit the madmeister and his toys.. no lion though, as I can see them quite close enough in the zoo...without feeling like catchable prey


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