# enigma het.



## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

i've been thinking about getting a female enigma, i've been reading everything i can find about them but am curious as to how tremper enigmas came about? i am guessing that normal non albino enigmas were bred to bell albinos and any that produced no bell offspring were used to create the tremper enigmas. there is no way as far as i can see to be sure that any tremper enigmas for sale have been created this way instead of the shortcut method of making bell/tremper double het enigmas and breeding these to trempers skipping one generation. so if the first enigma was discovered by mark bell in 2006. that means it would have only bred in 2007 and proved itself to be het bell or not and this years tremper enigmas are the first generation of this morph, is any of this correct? am i safe to buy one created double het? what is the actual problem with breeding the two albino strains togeather?


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## Leopard Gecko Wiki (Apr 15, 2008)

To answer your question, it all depends on what group the Enigma's came out of when Mark Bell discovered them. As for the two albino strains, most people when they buy Leopard Geckos to breed like to have the stands separated since they are not compatible.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

so he hatched more than one? i always thought every single enigma came frome one hatchling that had randomly mutated?


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

It probably did, but being he'd have bred it back to a related gecko to see if it was a trait that could be carried into the offspring - that would have also proven it to be co-dominant, but if it hadn't shown up straight away, he'd have carried on line/in breeding to see if it was a het trait. It's what all breeders to to test and fix a new mutation.

Being co-dominant though, once he knew that he's have probably started breeding to completely unrelated animals to try for more colour combos!

(I know that's how I'd have worked it anyway!)


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

boywonder said:


> what is the actual problem with breeding the two albino strains togeather?


The ONLY actual problem is that in the first generation you will not get any albino offspring (unless one of the parents is het for the other trait) and in the second generation it would almost certainly take breeding trials to find out which animals are homozygous Bell only, which animals are homozygous Tremper only, and which animals are homozygous for both genes.

If someone wants a Bell Albino from a clutch of eggs that had one Bell grandparent and one Tremper grandparent, it would have to wait until the albinos had all been test-bred against a known Bell animal to ensure you're getting Bell albino offspring.

A Tremper/Bell is more likely to look like one or the other of them, rather than something "new" - because one of the mutations will 'break' the process of making melanin correctly sooner than the other. If I had to guess, I'd probably say that Trempers break it sooner, although that's just a hunch based on the typical phenotype


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

ok, so the two enigma females that i've found in my price range and at a good weight (40ish grams) are a 66% possible het bell enigma and a bell enigma. all of my geckos are tremper based, should i buy a het bell (3 females to choose from) or the bell? i like the albino more but am unsure about intentionally crossing the albino strains. they are within £20 of each other and the bell seems too good a price to pass realy. (i'll have to get a RADAR bell male this summer to breed her with lol). does anyone have any tremper enigma females available please?


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

You'd be better buying the possible het. Then your babies would all be guaranteed Tremper het and the possibilities of it being a Bell het are so tiny, you just don't mention them any more!


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

thats what i thought ally but the bell enigma is so much nicer to look at. but i'd have to get a quality male for her. wonder how much a radar bell will be at hamm? i'd idealy like a tremper enigma female but can't find any for sale yet


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

If you got the Bell enigma, then I'd either get a Bell male, or a normal het Bell male. No harm in putting a normal/hypo/high yellow/tangerine etc to her though.
You'll get Enigmas and normals/Hypos (or something else depending on the male!) all het for Bell Albino.
Nowt wrong with that!


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## Leopard Gecko Wiki (Apr 15, 2008)

Ally said:


> You'd be better buying the possible het. Then your babies would all be guaranteed Tremper het and the possibilities of it being a Bell het are so tiny, you just don't mention them any more!


I don't know about you, but if I were to purchase a gecko, I would like to know if there was even the smallest chance for it to be het Bell.


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

But if it's 66% then bred to something else that's not carrying it at all, then the percentage possibility would be about 15%. You'd be a fool to buy it in the hope of it being a het!
If we were to get into that kind of detail with all morphs and the things that they may be carrying we'd be here all year.
Personally if somthing is only a 'possible' het (even a 66% possible), then I will never buy it for that posibility. (I'd buy it if I liked what it looked like and the visual was good enough for any breeding plans I had for it!)


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

Leopard Gecko Wiki said:


> I don't know about you, but if I were to purchase a gecko, I would like to know if there was even the smallest chance for it to be het Bell.


anybody buying an enigma would do their homework first and they would soon discover that the enigma morph was randomly created from bell albinos therefor every enigma could (and probably does) carry some bell in its makeup even if it can't express or pass on that expression of the gene. and like ally said, anyone actualy after a het bell would be foolish to chance those slim odds that offspring of a 66% possible bell mated with something non bell would produce


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

What i would do is,because you don't want to perposely breed B_albino to T_albino.Is get the two Enigma possible het B_albino females and first breed them to a B_albino male.And keeping records of what eggs belong to what female incubate them.Now the female or females that don't give B_albino offspring from a fair number of offspring.That would prove them not to be het B_albino so next season you can breed the female or females that didn't give B_albino offspring to a T_albino say a T_albino eclipse patternless striped male would be a good mate giveing both the T_albino and the eclipse into the enigma blood though this has all ready been done in the USA.The the offspring would be 100% T_albino and eclipse carrieres with no question of them carrying B_albino what a lot of people would like to see.


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## Leopard Gecko Wiki (Apr 15, 2008)

boywonder said:


> anybody buying an enigma would do their homework first and they would soon discover that the enigma morph was randomly created from bell albinos therefor every enigma could (and probably does) carry some bell in its makeup even if it can't express or pass on that expression of the gene. and like ally said, anyone actualy after a het bell would be foolish to chance those slim odds that offspring of a 66% possible bell mated with something non bell would produce


Just because they were created by Mark Bell does not mean they came from his Bell Albino group. I have yet to see proof of which group they randomly popped out of. If you have a source with the information, I would like to see it for my personal knowledge.


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## Leopard Gecko Wiki (Apr 15, 2008)

Ally said:


> But if it's 66% then bred to something else that's not carrying it at all, then the percentage possibility would be about 15%. You'd be a fool to buy it in the hope of it being a het!


I would not buy the animal period. I do not want to get an animal that has even a chance of being 15% het for Bell Albino for my Tremper Albino groups. That is why I would like to know *EVERYTHING* about the animal I am purchasing.


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

I worked it out last night, it's actually closer to 8% chance. 
You can guarantee that there is the possibility of your leos carrying things that you don't know about - the same can be said for all cb leos (obviously with the exception on f1 babies from 2 wc parents).
Because in the last 15 or so years of breeding leos, someone somewhere in the ancestry of your geckos has bred a het to a het.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

Leopard Gecko Wiki said:


> Just because they were created by Mark Bell does not mean they came from his Bell Albino group. I have yet to see proof of which group they randomly popped out of. If you have a source with the information, I would like to see it for my personal knowledge.


ok, so my source must be wrong then, oh hang on a minuet, my source is the enigma page on the leopard gecko wiki, 

it says that 

"The Enigmas are considered a random genetic mutation. In 2006, Mark Bell produced the first Enigma when it randomly hatched out of his Bell Albino group"

so is this information not correct?


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

Ally, i totaly aggree, many many geckos must carry unknown hets or there would never have been any new morps created, even wild caught ones may (and probably do) carry genetic traits that haven't even begun to surface yet. thats the fun of breeding them, you never know what could pop out of a pairing


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

gazz, thats what i asked in my original question, the only way to prove the possible bell het is with a test breeding and i don't have a bell male, i'll have to maybe borrow a stud off someone. they'd get pick of the litter so to speak as payment. it'd be much later on in the year though as the enigma hets i've found are only 40g or so. maybe i should wait for a tremper enigma female to become available and save myself a year's test breeding. but then how do i know if the breeder of the tremper enigmas did the test breedings? 
what does combining a tremper het bell with a tremper actualy do, i know it will give 50% tremper enigmas and 50% trempers but what happens with the bell bit that is SO terrible??


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

You get possible het bell albinos.

That's IT. Nothing so terrible... unless someone buys a pair from you for the intent of inbreeding that pair - then they might get a homozygous tremper, homozygous bell and probably wouldn't know any different unless they bred it to a Bell Albino.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

so its not like they'd all be born with two heads or something then? thanks Ssthisto


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

would an 8% possible het bell bred to its sibling increase the odds of it being het bell back up to 66% then? do i realy need to do the test breeding with a bell albino or would most of you not bother?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

No, it wouldn't ramp it back up to 66%. 

The only way to get 66% hets (which means "there's a two in three chance this animal is carrying the bell albino gene" and NOT "this animal carries 66% of the genes to make a bell albino") is to breed two animals who ARE het.

Basically, if you've got a very low likelihood of it being het bell, I might put it to a KNOWN Bell just in case (and should you get any Bell offspring, you know it's a 100% guaranteed het) but no Bell babies means it's probably not one.


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

boywonder said:


> would an 8% possible het bell bred to its sibling increase the odds of it being het bell back up to 66% then? do i realy need to do the test breeding with a bell albino or would most of you not bother?


I definaltey wouldn't bother!


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## Leopard Gecko Wiki (Apr 15, 2008)

boywonder said:


> ok, so my source must be wrong then, oh hang on a minuet, my source is the enigma page on the leopard gecko wiki,
> 
> it says that
> 
> ...


Boywonder,

Thank you for bring it to my attention. I have been doing some research and I have not been able to 100% confirm they have came from his Bell group. Going back and looking at different things, I came across this: GeckoForums.net - View Single Post - Enigma History

I will be sending an e-mail to Kelli from Hisss.net and a few other breeders to clear it up. Sorry about the confusion.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

to The leopard gecko wiki, i wasn't trying to pick holes in your posts:blush:, 

i think your site is relay relay cool and i'm sure countless members on here have found it very useful. i'm just trying to decide if i should buy a cheaper enigma and try to produce the actual one i want from the stocks i have or save up harder and just buy the one that i really want (tremper female) its a difficult decision i have to make as the cheaper one is more than a weeks wages for me, but she's really nice to look at and also 40g so may breed by the autumn . i think the seller has someone else interested in her and he won't hold her forever. i just need every angle lol


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## herp boy (May 4, 2007)

boywonder said:


> ok, so the two enigma females that i've found in my price range and at a good weight (40ish grams) are a 66% possible het bell enigma and a bell enigma. all of my geckos are tremper based, should i buy a het bell (3 females to choose from) or the bell? i like the albino more but am unsure about intentionally crossing the albino strains. they are within £20 of each other and the bell seems too good a price to pass realy. (i'll have to get a RADAR bell male this summer to breed her with lol). does anyone have any tremper enigma females available please?


who are you planning to purchase the enigmas off of? how much are they?


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

herp boy said:


> who are you planning to purchase the enigmas off of? how much are they?


sorry but i'm not telling before i make up my mind about that one, you might beat me to it lol


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## markandwend (Jan 28, 2007)

boywonder said:


> sorry but i'm not telling before i make up my mind about that one, you might beat me to it lol


 
I know exactly who they are from:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

shh lol
the bell enigma isn't from there anyway but i think i'm gona go for the het one


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## herp boy (May 4, 2007)

lol i still need atleast £400 before i can afford an enigma lol if there on this forum then i know who it could be lol


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## Leopard Gecko Wiki (Apr 15, 2008)

boywonder said:


> to The leopard gecko wiki, i wasn't trying to pick holes in your posts:blush:,
> 
> i think your site is relay relay cool and i'm sure countless members on here have found it very useful. i'm just trying to decide if i should buy a cheaper enigma and try to produce the actual one i want from the stocks i have or save up harder and just buy the one that i really want (tremper female) its a difficult decision i have to make as the cheaper one is more than a weeks wages for me, but she's really nice to look at and also 40g so may breed by the autumn . i think the seller has someone else interested in her and he won't hold her forever. i just need every angle lol


Boywonder,

No worries. It is the wiki's job to show accurate information. I am currently waiting to get a reply from Kelli about the origin of the Enigmas. I talked to some other breeders, they are unsure if Mark Bell knows which group they came out of.

Thanks,


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

tbh, I'd always say go for the one you like the look of most - that's always the most important thing. At the end of the day it's your pet, and you'll be caring for it - it's worth it being one you like!
I've not seen Tremper Enigmas yet (of course that doesn't mean they aren't out there) so you may be better off making them yourself rather than hunting for one to be made for you. A good sense of achivement then too!


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

thats exactly what i've decided to do ally. i'm going to get the 66%poss het bell enigma, just negotiating price and its slow by email.


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## markandwend (Jan 28, 2007)

boywonder said:


> thats exactly what i've decided to do ally. i'm going to get the 66%poss het bell enigma, just negotiating price and its slow by email.


 
Which 1 you getting then? And do you want the persons number???:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## cjreptiles (Nov 13, 2006)

Ally said:


> tbh, I'd always say go for the one you like the look of most - that's always the most important thing. At the end of the day it's your pet, and you'll be caring for it - it's worth it being one you like!
> I've not seen Tremper Enigmas yet (of course that doesn't mean they aren't out there) so you may be better off making them yourself rather than hunting for one to be made for you. A good sense of achivement then too!


I have Tremper enigmas 









Tremper enigma het. RAPTOR

Don't have any photos of any of his offspring yet unfortunately.


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

See? There's always one!!

(wow, don't they look great as Trempers?!)


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## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

cjreptiles said:


> I have Tremper enigmas
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Woweee now thats a handsom beast!!!


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

what a cool gecko that is chris, he's lovely.


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## cjreptiles (Nov 13, 2006)

boywonder said:


> what a cool gecko that is chris, he's lovely.


Cheers mate.

The hatchlings are awesome.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

i managed to get myself a lovely female enigma today, she's arriving on wednesday morning photobucket keeps going to the mobile bit so i can't upload a pic at the moment


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## Leopard Gecko Wiki (Apr 15, 2008)

boywonder said:


> i managed to get myself a lovely female enigma today, she's arriving on wednesday morning photobucket keeps going to the mobile bit so i can't upload a pic at the moment


Very nice! I cannot wait to see pictures!


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

just got the one pic that the breeder, ken sent me. i've called her spice, she'll live with my tremper super snow sugar after quarenteen.


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

boywonder said:


> just got the one pic that the breeder, ken sent me. i've called her spice, she'll live with my tremper super snow sugar after quarenteen.


I've got a hypo like that


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

i wanted one with plenty of orange on her as i want to make Tremper Enigma Rubyeye ORange T.E.R.OR's


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Lol cool mate didnt mean any offence by it  

I wish you well


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

kind of wish i'd not posted my acronym now. i might edit it out


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## snd geckos (Oct 13, 2007)

boywonder said:


> just got the one pic that the breeder, ken sent me. i've called her spice, she'll live with my tremper super snow sugar after quarenteen.


nice looking enigma looks like ours thats been bred to a raptor male , good luck with your red eye enigma project


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

thanks snd geckos can i ask where yours came from?


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## snd geckos (Oct 13, 2007)

we bought ours from Sheffield geckos in december she produced her first 2 eggs last week 








this is one of her young from last year bred by sheffield geckos , its not a enigma just a nice tangerine het raptor


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## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

boywonder said:


> i wanted one with plenty of orange on her as i want to make Tremper Enigma Rubyeye ORange T.E.R.OR's


i understand you totally on that and it is one of the reasons why we have put our red eye enigma to our tangelos and so working on a simular project as i love orange geckos

as you can see from the head shot of our enigma x tangelo hatchling the orange is already bright on his head and we hope it will continue and brighten up as he grows


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

that hatchling is almost fluorescent orange, thats exactly what i'm aiming for with my enigma x RAPTOR breedings and any enigmas produced would be bred to my friends unrelated RAPTOR to hopefully produce a T.E.R.OR or two.


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## suez (Jul 8, 2007)

melanie said:


> i understand you totally on that and it is one of the reasons why we have put our red eye enigma to our tangelos and so working on a simular project as i love orange geckos
> 
> as you can see from the head shot of our enigma x tangelo hatchling the orange is already bright on his head and we hope it will continue and brighten up as he grows


oh wow and wow again he is just so beautiful Mel and Mark cant wait for you to sell enigmas MEEEEE First lol


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## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

lol u are on the list: victory::no1::flrt:


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

got any for sale?


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

cjreptiles said:


> I have Tremper enigmas
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sorry. i meant do you have any of his offspring available now? i'm looking for an enigma like him, a calico tremper


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## cjreptiles (Nov 13, 2006)

boywonder said:


> sorry. i meant do you have any of his offspring available now? i'm looking for an enigma like him, a calico tremper


I do, yes.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

well pm me the details then boss 



please


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