# How do you heat a dart frog tank?



## Cicindela (Nov 28, 2014)

Hi everyone, I'm just about to move everyone- day geckos , snakes, cresties, ect into my almost finished reptile shed conversion, I would very much like dart frogs- I was wondering if I keep the shed between 21-26 c and say 17 at night will this be o.k for darts?I read that room temps are comfortable for them, If they need extra heat people say use a heat mat but I want to make a background on all three sides of the tank out of foam etc and light with an arcadia led for plant growth, if I do that then a heat mat stuck on the outside wouldn't be able to penetrate it's heat though , underneath would be a possibility but I intend to do the usual- water reserve, false floor, substrate so it would overall be quite a thick layer of various things- again too thick for heat to work it's way up? I hear aquarium heaters are also used. so what temps for day and for night do you frog keepers out there aim for? and what do you do if it's too cold, having said that I know too much heat is a dart frogs biggest enemy . Many thanks


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

If you can keep your shed within the range you mention, 17C at night - 25C during the day you`ll be spot on for dart frogs.
As you`ve seen mentioned room temps are usually pretty much okay for them.
I have no heat mats on any of my viv and I can`t actually think of anyone who does have.


Mike


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## Cicindela (Nov 28, 2014)

*Heating*

Hi there, Thank you so much for your advice- I'm delighted to hear that the temps will be o.k for them, I mentioned an led for plant growth, Would you also add a 2% uv too? I hope to post some pics when the vivs are up and running- I have great plans for a beautiful planted background like I've seen on this forum. I'm trying to work out how to have a small in-viv pump secreted in the groundwork, I don't want to put it right at the back and cover with the groundwork, I always think if it failed how you you get it out or maintain it so I wanted to make a place for it at the front but maybe with a lift off cover- it's got to be frog proof though which will be difficult. Maybe I'll ask on the forum again when I'm closer to building it. Many thanks again- really appreciated and I'm seriously excited now! .:2thumb:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

There is a raging debate on the internet about UV.
I don`t use it personally.
Putting pumps into vivs to circulate water can be a source of continual problems so think hard about it.
Do you really need a water feature in the viv ?



Mike


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## cobe (Nov 24, 2010)

frogman955 said:


> There is a raging debate on the internet about UV.
> I don`t use it personally.
> Putting pumps into vivs to circulate water can be a source of continual problems so think hard about it.
> Do you really need a water feature in the viv ?
> ...


im interested why you dont use UV with your frogs? do you use vitamins during feeding?


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## Cicindela (Nov 28, 2014)

*Waterfalls in a dart viv*

Hi Mike, Do waterfalls- drip walls create more trouble than they are worth- Do you mean they circulate faeces and other decaying matter- I was hoping a clean up crew would sort that, I was going to run the viv for months before adding anything to get the ecosystem going, Do you not bother with waterfalls? I am an extremely proud owner of a Mistking Yay  not actually installed yet but i look longingly at the box on a regular basis! so will be using that for humidity but really liked the idea of moving water. I'd love to know your thoughts as it sounds like you are not so keen on them. I'm pro UV for nocturnal animals and have it for my crestie and other 'nocturnal' sp. I understand that darts live in the depths of the rainforest but i thought they sought out pockets of light to bask in but maybe not- I'm here to learn. It never fails to amaze me how wonderful the internet is with a wealth of knowledge out there ( i know you have to research and I know there's mis information out there too ) and this forum is unbelievable to be able to ask for or search for opinions and help or advice or maybe give it and it's there in a click of a mouse - it's just great! Cheers


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

cobe said:


> im interested why you dont use UV with your frogs? do you use vitamins during feeding?


 Think about it.
Frogs spend most of their life under the canopy, on the forest floor, often under leaves or amongst tree roots or stones.
So their exposure to UV is minimal.
Why would we want to expose them to UV for 12 hours a day while the lights are on when they only get a fraction of that in the wild ?
I use vitamins every day.


Mike


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Waterfalls if done right can look really good.
But the water gets dirty, the pumps clog up, Humidity can rise making everything in the viv too wet, and yes they circulate all the nasty stuff.
Remember humid doesn`t mean wet, it just means there is moisture in the air, but yes you get varying degrees of it.
For your viv all you need is damp.
Most keepers don`t even own a humidity gauge as apart from most being unreliable or useless it just isn`t needed if your viv is kept properly.
Spray your viv 3 times a day and you`ll find that it`s probably all you need.
A useful gauge is just to look at the substrate to see how wet it is, if it is soaking don`t spray, if it is dry spray it.
With practice you`ll get it right.
You mentioned something which I think is important.
Frogs do not bask in the sun. It would kill them.
Their skin is fragile and the sun would soon dry it out and kill the frog.
On the subject of UV.
I have a group of Leucs which I`ve had for 6 years http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/1044580-my-frogroom-23.html
And also Bastis which I`ve had for maybe 5 years http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/1044580-my-frogroom-18.html
They are all in good health and are breeding and have not had UV while I`ve had them.
It`s your choice. :2thumb:


Mike


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## Cicindela (Nov 28, 2014)

*water in the viv*

Hi Mike, I really appreciate your advice but could I ask another question? I'm being a bit dim here I think, When you said you weren't keen on waterfalls I thought you meant you had no water in your tanks just correct humidity but looking at your pics you do have standing water- so am I right in saying for you it's no to waterfalls/pumps but yes to standing water- How does the water without a pump behave in a viv? do you siphon on a regular basis to keep the water clean or is it that the water just stays fairly clean anyway- with no fish in the water and perhaps the use of charcoal in the lower substrate? I'd love to have water in the vivs and would be very happy with still water. Thanks ever so much again :2thumb:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

The one with standing water is my old 130 gallon aquarium.
The substrate is raised up above the water level which is actually the full length of the tank, 4 1/2ft.
As the tank gets misted the water level rises and I then drain the excess off into a bucket under the tank using the old external filter pipes which are plumbed into the base of the tank.
So the water is being replaced/topped up with fresh water from the misting.
This is the only one I have with standing water.
All my other vivs are from DMS Vivaria and have front drainage gullies where any excess water goes and then drains out into a bucket automatically.
If you want standing water then I see no reason why not, but you will have to make sure the water doesn`t go stagnant or this could lead to potential health problems for the frogs as the water goes sour.
You would have to change the water regularly, every day or two.
And/or, depending on the size of the pool, you might need a very small pump to circulate the water to keep it aerated and stop it from going stagnant.
Pools are only really suitable for larger tanks which is why I have one in my Leucs viv, I have 9 square feet of ground area there, so plenty of room.
The average vivarium has less than 2 feet.
One point to remember as well is that in the wild dart frogs don`t live in water, they can`t swim. They use it to rehydrate so will sit in a small pool to do this or with Pums they will maybe go into a brom axil for water.
So any pool that you have will need to be shallow so the frogs don`t drown and it will need easy access out for the frog to be able to climb out.
This is why I say that having water can be more hassle than it`s worth, so it is your choice and hopefully I`ve pointed out any potential problems.


Mike


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## cobe (Nov 24, 2010)

frogman955 said:


> Think about it.
> Frogs spend most of their life under the canopy, on the forest floor, often under leaves or amongst tree roots or stones.
> So their exposure to UV is minimal.
> Why would we want to expose them to UV for 12 hours a day while the lights are on when they only get a fraction of that in the wild ?
> ...


They have proven that uv does penetrate to the forest floor, by they i mean people who have gone out into the field to study reptiles and amphibians. i have had first hand reports from friends that have actually seen darts out in the open some in even areas exposed to open unobstructed sunlight... not saying for a second you are wrong about not using uv just simply wondering why you dont


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I did say that they get UV.
What I also said is that in the wild they are not exposed to it all day.
In a viv with a UV light going for 12 hours non stop they are exposed to it more.
Arguably more than they need to be.
This brings me back to my previous comment on this issue being debated across the internet.
Are you right ? I don`t know.
Am I right ? I don`t know.
But I`m doing what I feel is okay for my frogs and so far I`ve seen nothing to say I`m doing things wrong.
I also read what gets said on the subject so try to keep updated on whats happening.


Mike


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## Cicindela (Nov 28, 2014)

*UV or not UV that is the question*

Hi all, Just a thought on the ol' uv debate- I think what I am going to do is try to replicate natural conditions- I personally wouldn't like to see my frogs exposed to 12 hours of uv with no escape however my plan is to heavily planted up the tank creating lots - 80 % shade?and then try to let a few patches of uv light peaking through, I am hoping that that will protect their skin from 100% and 12hrs a day uv and let them choose when they what to sit in the sun patches and when they want to move into the shade which will also mean that the D3 will be utilised in the light shade UV cycle, I'm hoping that will be the best for them. I'm still considering a waterfall but I'm wondering if I can make a more controlled water flow along a 'stream' where the water only flows and doesn't leach out all over the rest of the groundwork, Maybe I'll play it safe for now though and stay with the no water viv and enjoy that without the added probs of water. Very many thanks again.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

One of the reasons I made my Pum vivs like they are was to create shaded areas at ground level.
Now they have the choice to either stay out in the open or with a quick hop hide in the shaded areas and so far it seems to work very well as my frogs are always out and about.
Let us know how you get on and post a few pics to show us whats happening. 


Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Hey guys interesting thread,mad rush so this will be short I hope:bash::lol2:


uvb : read the thread in stickies theories an musings:2thumb:

no need what so ever for12 hours constant uvb....2 sets of lights..kerching:lol2:
leds run ya 12 hours backed by uvb of choice in mid of the day for time you want
I use this,arcadia T5 D3 6% is my currant choice,but maybe the 12% might be better. on for a few hours probably 4. leds doing the 12 shift look around 6500K daylight ofr colour choice
debatable how much gets to frogs through glass,
I use front top glass normal then vent ie mesh then low iron,ie optiwhite at back. viv is ent base design so the frogs have 3 base level choices...i'm letting them get on with it if they want by moving to the front without uvb, 

you can also open the doors and use stronger,but you naturally have to be there I haven't done this,but friends that have say frogs come out bask a while then go back.

water falls etc I wouldn't personally a bit of faffing and risks asscociated with anerobic subs from getting too wet. that said some folks specially do this for species that live by streams,probably more Atelopus,but maybe some ameerga to which I have no experience of

One word about dart keeping we all do things slightly different no one right way

must go no time sorry it's like this hope you can understand what the hell I just wrote:lol2:

many wishes of luck

Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

As I said, the debate rages.


Mike


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## Scubadiver (Jun 13, 2014)

Which section is the UVB sticky in? Think I've missed it. I've tried to keep up with the latest thinking over the years, like many when I first started out there was no such thing easily available, or any of the other purpose built equipment we have today, we're very lucky these days!
I don't keep darts, I keep and breed Central and South American tree frogs. For these I decided it was a no-brainer due to the fact that they largely sleep out in the daylight and many actively bask. Their D3 requirement is fulfilled in the wild from sunlight this way.
There's a shortage of scientific study on providing D3 to captive animals, but a small selection I've come across certainly convince me that UVB along with adequate cover is the way to go. D3 dietary supplementation has been proven to be inefficient compared with UVB lighting and also impossible to dose correctly. Whereas frogs eyes have been shown to be able to detect UVB so they are able to self-regulate their exposure.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> As I said, the debate rages.
> 
> 
> Mike


Always will bro no one way to keep a dart:2thumb:


Stu


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Scubadiver said:


> Which section is the UVB sticky in? Think I've missed it. I've tried to keep up with the latest thinking over the years, like many when I first started out there was no such thing easily available, or any of the other purpose built equipment we have today, we're very lucky these days!
> I don't keep darts, I keep and breed Central and South American tree frogs. For these I decided it was a no-brainer due to the fact that they largely sleep out in the daylight and many actively bask. Their D3 requirement is fulfilled in the wild from sunlight this way.
> There's a shortage of scientific study on providing D3 to captive animals, but a small selection I've come across certainly convince me that UVB along with adequate cover is the way to go. D3 dietary supplementation has been proven to be inefficient compared with UVB lighting and also impossible to dose correctly. Whereas frogs eyes have been shown to be able to detect UVB so they are able to self-regulate their exposure.


Hey kiddo it's right here in front of you buddy,up top in the stickies,well it should be. Mate in no way am I being funny it's already evident you do the graft/homework kiddo. But as this up top and hopefully our mod might see this can you actually see it? Bro I miss stuff and am a complete numpty with computers But as the section is entitled: Amphibian FAQ's please read before posting..... it is worth asking for the next guy as there might be some glitch or something. The stickies are a great resourse for folks so that's what I'm chasing and maybe ya missed it,which is cool:2thumb: I might too,but if it isn't showing then we need to find out why:2thumb:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/780618-amphibian-stickies-faqs-please-read.html


I'm hopefully going to give you a link to actual thread, on uvb now 

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/421553-uvb-amphibians-theory-musings.html

hope that all works out kiddo and I hope I got out what I was trying to say in the right way. and you'll come back and say cool I can see 'em just missed it,which is so damn easy.

Scuby, Arcadiajohn has a job to do sure, he works for Arcadia,but his honesty and integrety( I have spoken to him for years and there is more ) are beyond that...this is a guy with a profound knowledge of reps/phibs and lighting...might be worth a shout. John's thoughts have helped me no end:notworthy:

You have done your homework mate I try too, it's really interesting to look into uv indexes for the area that your chosen species inhabit kiddo,you probably already have, but if not worth a mention.
Bro I only keep darts,but understand the want to explore what we can do to replicate nature, ha, somewhat profoundly in a glass box. I really think it's worth you also digging through Dartden and dendroboard,I know they are specialist to what I keep not you,but I'd imagine you'll find some things of interest for what you keep aswell.

Andrew Gray at manchester museum might be another source of wisdom,Mark Pepper at Understory Enterprises,oh and Brian Kubiki(god hope I got his name right:blush at The Costarican Amphibian Research Center the CRARC has to be worth a punt,seriously knowledge there dude,plus monster ethics in all:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:

hope some of this helps bro if there is something you haven't found yet me time was well spent,you'll do the rest: victory:

good hunting bro
Stu


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## Scubadiver (Jun 13, 2014)

Ah! Good one Stu, cheers! Yeah, I haven't been using forums for very long so I was just being stupid. I did know the section had stickies up top, but saw the title of that one and thought it was just rules about posting. Didn't open it up! There's some great info inside 
Looking at the UVB thread, it seems to gel exactly with the conclusions I came to from independent research over the years, great contributions from John at Arcadia, that guy really knows his stuff. I'm of the opinion that for me at least, husbandry means trying to recreate as closely as possible the natural environment of the animal. Long gone are the days of fish tanks and incandescent 60w light bulbs as the pinnacle of vivarium design, the equipment and technology available to us now is overwhelming! I look back at a paper I wrote in The Herptile in 1981 and it makes me cringe, it represented what we knew and could do at the time, but really it's embarrassing.
Seems to me these days with the collective knowledge and technology available we really can recreate the environment of our charges and with people like Arcadia John on the case, SEEMS like we can even get a 'prescription' to replicate the exact lighting spectrum of their home. Can we?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Brill on the stickies,yes huge wealth of info. Trouble is so much was up there I think the mods had no choice really but to lump it all together,which unfortunately makes it somewhat less visible, all good kiddo:2thumb: I'm the same didn't have a clue about fora when I first came here folks were very kind got me going,not stupid though can can one know buddy,tis all new. I just wanted to be sure it is there for all


Scuby, I kept as a kid ,damn long break and then started this dart malarky. I totally appreciate the sentiments,wow haven't things changed,the web and easy of access to both info and folks with knowledge makes life so easy for us now. 

Ahh now there's a question,I guess the info is there:mf_dribble:For me though the biggest single thing we could do that i can't is go there uvb meter thermometer in hand and watch them. We have profound levels of knowledge compared to not so far back,even in my short return time to amphibian keeping,huge steps have been made,but as a keeper and as hard as one researches,I wish I could grab some first hands stuff. It would lodge with me almost subconciously methinks. But we can get uv indexes rainfall RH data at the drop of a hat for a lot of areas if one digs,I do feel all these little things add up.

The dart world has just seen a huge milestone pass,some legal Oophaga lehmanni have been exported to america,from Tesoros de Colombia. they inhabit upland forests that get quite cool at night, fascinating watching how some of the guys are trying to replicate their homeland conditions with chillers and foggers and uvb, it's very inspiring where we can take this and how fast things are progressing. Oh bro you probably have already,but if not dig about carrotenoids,I would think they might be applicable to TF's just as much as to darts,not just the colour side is of interest to me. 

Hmm I'm derailing some one's thread ,with an oil rad is the answer to that one:blush:

Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Yea it`s funny how we start talking about heating a viv and end up talking about importing frogs.


Mike


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## Cicindela (Nov 28, 2014)

*Thanks everyone*

Hi everyone, Thank you all so much for all the interesting pieces of information and views and tips that have been written,I really appreciate it:flrt:- I'm collecting all the info and hopefully will be able to start of the vivs soon, My reptile shed is pretty much done and I'm just waiting for the electrics to go it, can't wait! 
Watch this space for a pic of the vivs when they are done.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> Yea it`s funny how we start talking about heating a viv and end up talking about importing frogs.
> 
> 
> 
> Mike


and chillin' a viv for darts which took us right back to topic thought you'ld clock that bro,:lol2:

Stu


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