# Clown Loach - BIG problem somewhere - Clues please



## pugant06 (Jan 23, 2009)

For those who have the patience to read this, any clues would be VERY welcome.

A few weeks ago i set up a tank for the wife. An aqua one AR850. Everything done properly. Washed aquatic sand through and the new ship ornament. Filled with treated water and after couple of days started the filter start treatment. After a further two weeks checked water, all going well filter starting to take effect. Went to local aquatic centre & they agreed ok to introduce starter fish. Two dwarf blue gouramis purchased and put in tank. Fine, and another week later the four neon tetras we had in another tank we are running down were put in. 
Further two weeks and filter is working well and all fish healthy. Went back to aquatic centre who also tested the water and replied its 'spot on'. Ready for more fish. Wife always wanted clown loach so two good sized ones were purchased at £12 each plus a small type of catfish. Placed in tank but both clown loach dead within 48hrs. Took them back to centre who retested water and reply was results of the water was one of the best he had seen from a customer in a long time. They gave us two replacements but first of these has died within 24hrs and second not looking good.

Ok here goes:
Introduced with care. Bag put in top of tank for 20mins to allow temps to stabilise.
Lights off during introduction.
Our tank temp running at 25c same as aquatic centres.
ALL other fish still healthy.
Loach's that died showed NO signs of disease, physical damage and were still holding full colour.
Tank is not in any direct sunlight and is away from windows.
Kids have left home so not subjected to noise or knocks.
No aerosols used anywhere near vicinity.
Plants were placed in tank when set up from day one. no other introductions to tank other than fish.
Main lighting is on for only 8 hrs then subtle moonlight effect on till we go to bed. 

I feel i'm really clutching at straws for possible causes here. PLEASE any clues would be greatly appreciated. Even the staff in the aquatic centre were scratching their heads when we left last time. But i'm popping in again tonight to see them with another dead one and rather than refund we will pick up a couple of dwarf honey gourami.

As i said earlier clown loaches are a fish the wife always wanted but we never had a tank set up big enough for them. We will try again but only if we find a good reason why these have died and rectified the problem. IF WE HAVE ONE.


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

perhaps a heap load of bad luck? If you've got other fish in there that are settled and thriving maybe it is just pure shock of tank moves etc? dwarf gouramis *salutes you* love gouramis so much lol but thats another story.

I would have said osmething to do with whats inside the tank but your waters testing as perfect. or near that.

Only other thing is this catfish, what type and size is it? Could it be stressing your loachs out?


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

Daft question but they were actually dead rather than just lying on their sides on the bottom?

Could also be lack of oxygen ,do you have really good circulation as your temp in my opinion is too high for clown loaches.

Also pH could be an issue if it was low but as it`s a relatively new tank its doubtful.

Whar are the dimensions of the tank?

Regards


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

Also floating bags is of no use after short trips from a shop it eqalises the water temperature but not the fishes temperature that much .

Floating in my opinion just causes undue stress on a fishes system.


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

I have my tanks runnin on 27/28 i think majority of the time. 

Lack of oxygen is a possibility. I know that i had to introduce a 2nd pump for my comm tank to stop things from getting very lathargic (sp?)


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

There is a vogue nowadays for running tanks too warm i feel 24c is plenty warm enough .

If it works for you though then thats what matters ,what the hobby is about .:2thumb:


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

Deffo agree with you there mate!

I had it at like 23 or so for a bit, things just slowed down pretty crazily. I also had a couple of dwarf honeys go on me too  up to 27/28 and omg every guppy in sight is preg's! cories are live n kickin, mollies are going cool and my danios are darting about like little light flashes lol.


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## pugant06 (Jan 23, 2009)

Yes i know they can act dead. but once you have tapped them a few times with plastic rod and no reaction you have a good idea that they are dead. Also held them in net at top of water for few seconds to make double sure.

No Ph problems - thats fine so aquatic centre say for these.

Air is forced into the water by external filter exit above water. I would add aditional airiation if stocking levels go up but at moment not an issue.

The catfish is only small and a type that only grows to 4" maximum. Not a type that goes flying arround bottom of tank like some. Spends most of its time clinging to ship ornament.

Thanks for suggestions so far - keep them coming please


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

Ok then. With regards to air filtration though, if the loaches are large, maybe it is purely down to the air within the tank. Whats the tank dim's?

i am beginning to run outta ideas other than pure bad luck


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Your average trop tank should be at around 24C. Bettas, wild caught discus, some cichla species and errrr clown loach are better kept at warmer temperatures. The farms where they are bred have temperatures around 28C. Their native waters are warmer than 24C too.

Did you get the pH, gH and kH tested?


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## pugant06 (Jan 23, 2009)

The tank is 160lts.

Tank running at 25c same as aquatic centres.

A full water test was carried out to cover all possibilities by the centre.

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR THOUGHTS SO FAR


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

pugant06 said:


> A full water test was carried out to cover all possibilities by the centre.


So what were the readings? Just becaus e a shop says it's OK, doesn't neccesarily mean it is. If it was, why would your fish die?

Did they give you all of the readings? if so, what were they?


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## MARK H (May 13, 2009)

Are you using any treatments in the tank. Loaches don’t have scales so treatment dosage levels should be halved, some treatments should not be used at all.
You will need to check any instructions.


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

Clown loaches have no scales so are more sensitive to chemicals in the water which would be a chemical that you wount detect from the tests done at the shop. If there is a huge difference in the water chemistry in the tank they were in at the shop eg low pH at the shop and your water then it could have shocked the fish and killed them but if they have no physical signs of skin damage or illness then I'm struggling a bit. 

I once did a water change using the mixer tap to get it to the correct temp quickly, If you use water from the hot tap then you get copped in your water, I had a 12" spiny eel and it turned totally stiff after doing this but was still alive, the eel like clown loaches had no scales, just skin and so are much more sensitive to the copper in the water, none of the other fish were affected as far as I can remember. I set a hospital tank up using fresh water which was made up of water from the cold tap warmed with the heater and put the eel in. After about a week the eel started moving again and it slowly recovered. It died about a year later but I've leanrt never to use water from the hot tap becuase it contains copper. Hope this help, it might be something similar as the scaleless clown loaches are the ones affected.

They are one of my favourite fish, very attractive and very entertaining


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## pugant06 (Jan 23, 2009)

Ok - just back from aquatic centre after returning both dead clown loaches again.

A third water sample done by them along side a sample from their tank containing the clown loaches. Both practically the same results. The Ph reading on both about 8.5. Both theirs and our tank still running at 25c.

No treatments have been used in the tank other than the water safe used initially and the filter start used for two weeks prior to starter fish going in.

No, I have only ever used and treated water from the COLD tap. So no chance of copper from hot supply.

They have been good to offer a full refund but we offset some of this by coming home with two red dwarf gourami to go with the blue neons we already had and five additions to our neon tetra squadron. All swimming in perfect formation.

Thats as far as we are stocking for time being as we will leave room for clown loaches to be introduced once we or someone out there comes up with a damn good reason why we lost these four.

Keep scratching your heads folks and any positive input will be greatly received. The staff in the aquatic centre are as as miffed as we are with this.

Thanks again for looking.

Tony


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Problem solved a pH of 8.5 will kill clown loaches very quickly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do the shop not know this???


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## pugant06 (Jan 23, 2009)

Hmmm - ok, but the ones still in their tanks were all ok when i popped in tonight???


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

pugant06 said:


> Hmmm - ok, but the ones still in their tanks were all ok when i popped in tonight???


Did you see them test the pH of their stock tank? Only marines and lake Tanganyikan fish are safe at such a high pH.

I can point you to loads of info of clown loach needing a much lower pH than this. Remember a pH of 8.5 is 10 time more alkaline than 8.4 and 100 times more alkaline than 8.3 etc.


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## mutley623 (Mar 8, 2009)

I would defo say that the ph is probably the major factor! Also i have always been lead to beleive that clown loaches should only ever be put in a tank that is well and truely matured! i know you said that all your waters are fine but i had the same problem when i 1st started keeping fish! In the end i waited till the tank had been set up and stable for about 6 month never had any probems since and all 3 of my clown loaches and a blue botia are thriving  hope this may help also


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

agree with the guys above the Ph is well to high!

What was the pet shop used was it a chain?

Also size of the tank is way to small for clown loach they need a large enviroment and tend to be better kept in groups of 6.

Turning the temperature up will cause the fish to breed like crazy and grow alot! Unfortunatley they die alot quicker as all your doing is speeding up the natural life process.


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

SteveCourty said:


> Turning the temperature up will cause the fish to breed like crazy and grow alot! Unfortunatley they die alot quicker as all your doing is speeding up the natural life process.


Which fish will breed like crazy and which will die quicker?


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

pH 8.5 is very high, tetra wont like that either, I think they like pH 6 -7 and also soft water. I live in a hard water are but use Reverse Osmosis to make it soft, if I buy cardinals from local shops with hard water they have stunted growth and dont last 10 minutes, if i buy from 20-30 miles away in soft water area they live for ages and grow full size.
Livebearers or the rift valley cichlids would do better in that water. I doubt you can grow many plants either?


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

MJ75 said:


> Your average trop tank should be at around 24C. Bettas, wild caught discus, some cichla species and errrr clown loach are better kept at warmer temperatures. The farms where they are bred have temperatures around 28C. Their native waters are warmer than 24C too.
> 
> Did you get the pH, gH and kH tested?


ERR that will be for breeding ,the flowing waters clown loaches inhabit would be nowhere near that temp.
The most robust disease free clown loaches i ever owned were kept at around the 72 f range .
Temperatures you advocate lead to hyperactive disease prone loaches.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

MJ75 said:


> Problem solved a pH of 8.5 will kill clown loaches very quickly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Do the shop not know this???


We`ll have to beg to differ here i`ve kept clown loaches in with lake cichlids at a pH over 8 didn`t bother them one bit.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

MJ75 said:


> Did you see them test the pH of their stock tank? Only marines and lake Tanganyikan fish are safe at such a high pH.
> 
> I can point you to loads of info of clown loach needing a much lower pH than this. Remember a pH of 8.5 is 10 time more alkaline than 8.4 and 100 times more alkaline than 8.3 etc.


8 is 10 times more alkaline than 7 and 9 is 100 times more alkaline than 7 .

Each incremental step between those is 10 times .

So staring at 8 8.1 is 10 times 8.2 is 20 times more than 8 etc.

But each step is only 10 times the previous one.

Not being a smart arse but it is important that it is correct.


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## Scoffa (Nov 23, 2006)

Temp range for clowns is 25c - 28c and a ph of between 6-7. They like plenty of room and a group of their own species. They do fine in water low oxygenated water. When setting a tank up I always start with guppy's and get them breeding first, that way I know the water is something like. Clowns like plenty of hiding places and when you get a group of 5 or more together they start to shoal. They are very susceptible to stress which can cause white spot.


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Graylord said:


> ERR that will be for breeding ,the flowing waters clown loaches inhabit would be nowhere near that temp.
> The most robust disease free clown loaches i ever owned were kept at around the 72 f range .
> Temperatures you advocate lead to hyperactive disease prone loaches.


Hi hunny

The temp I advocate is what they live in naturally. They're found between 25c and 30c. You can check fishbase.org for an authorative answer. 

You bred many clown loaches? :whistling2:

Best

xxx


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Graylord said:


> We`ll have to beg to differ here i`ve kept clown loaches in with lake cichlids at a pH over 8 didn`t bother them one bit.


We will. KnowIng how long they can live for I suspect your keeping was nowhere near the lengh of their natural lifespan, so is this a good test? Judging by the OP's experience it's probably not lol!!!


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Graylord said:


> 8 is 10 times more alkaline than 7 and 9 is 100 times more alkaline than 7 .
> 
> Each incremental step between those is 10 times .
> 
> ...


Really??? Every book I've ever read must be wrong then? So was my chemistry teacher at school. You must be very clever hun...

Cheers hunny

xxx


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

ok, i cant be bothered to read all the playground flirting between MJ and gray, so who wants to tell me, did OP get it sorted? If so what was the issue? and good morning folks"! 

MJ, did u wet the bed? your on early.


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## pugant06 (Jan 23, 2009)

Well at least I have got some discussion going on this one ! ! !

KEEP IT FREINDLY THOUGH FOLKS - :lol2:


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Frase said:


> ok, i cant be bothered to read all the playground flirting between MJ and gray, so who wants to tell me, did OP get it sorted? If so what was the issue? and good morning folks"!
> 
> MJ, did u wet the bed? your on early.


OP lost fish. Alomost certainly due to a very high pH level. I've been in the office since 7:30.


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

yeah but u go home early so dont feel sorry for yourself! and OP, you wanna see discussion? you wanna see DISCUSSION?!?!?!? go hop onto my thread: Fish tank and have a read, hopefully if your sence of humor is even half that of mine u will still be LMAO at it.

Matt


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

by the way, dispite MJs dickheadiness, and blatant disregard for trying to be friendly with information and trying his upmost to get under the other guy/gals skin, its unfortunate but he kinda does know what he is saying to a degree. Although he does have a tendancy to have a 1 tracked mind 







*Just wanted to get in there MJ =)*


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## cjd99 (Apr 8, 2009)

out of curiousity do you have copper piping going to your taps? if you do and it's old you may have a heavy metal problem which won't show up in most shops tests but it'll still kill your fish


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Frase said:


> by the way, dispite MJs dickheadiness, and blatant disregard for trying to be friendly with information and trying his upmost to get under the other guy/gals skin, its unfortunate but he kinda does know what he is saying to a degree. Although he does have a tendancy to have a 1 tracked mind
> 
> 
> *Just wanted to get in there MJ =)*


 
Yeah but my one track mind is better suited to the 18+ section of the forum.....

I was just starting to like you too Matthew!!! :whistling2:


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

yeah thats why i worry......the whole sweets car and basement thing :Na_Na_Na_Na:

U have always liked me really MJ and we both know it, thats why you've taken the time to talk to me in so many places lol.

But yeah, come on, you have got a 1 tracked mind with this stuff sometimes lol. If it aint the MJ way - its no way :whistling2:


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Frase said:


> yeah thats why i worry......the whole sweets car and basement thing :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> U have always liked me really MJ and we both know it, thats why you've taken the time to talk to me in so many places lol.
> 
> But yeah, come on, you have got a 1 tracked mind with this stuff sometimes lol. If it aint the MJ way - its no way :whistling2:


There is no MJ way. Just proven facts and reasons not to do something....

The best way to keep clown fish is in a large river system, at least 6' long fitted with a manifold. Kept in a large group with lots of hiding places, in softer, slightly acidic water heated to around 28C. I've had clown loach but never kept them in a river set up with a manifold but understand why it's more natural for them etc. The OP should join the loaches online forum. There are loads of genuine loach experts who will be able to give you advice. PM a guy called Mad Duff, he's the first person in the UK to breed a couple of loach species in an aquarium and really knows his stuff, rather than the "chuck it and chance it, it works 'cos I've done it methods banded a bout on here, He's very friendly and helpful too. So that kind of rubbishes your theory really....

Anyways, you wanna see some puppies?


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## pugant06 (Jan 23, 2009)

Reply to cjd99

The house is a 1970 build so its whatever plumbing they used those days including copper piping to the taps
.
That said though all other fish in that tank are fine. As is the male siamese fighter now on its own in the Biorb (Any offers). Plus both newt tanks are fine (FB's in one & S ribbed in other). All get their water supply from same tap in garage.

Thanks for your input though.


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

pugant06 said:


> Reply to cjd99
> 
> The house is a 1970 build so its whatever plumbing they used those days including copper piping to the taps
> .
> ...


Do you use water out of your hot tap when filling your aquaria?


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

my theory isnt crushed, you stil are a 1 tracked mind. People have different theories and i am sure theres more than 1 way to skin a cat? :? lolz

And hmmm...by puppies....what do you mean? is this appropriate talk for this part of forum? hahaha


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## pugant06 (Jan 23, 2009)

*NO WAY* - I do know better than to use a hot tap for anything aquatic.

And before you ask for anything tropical the water temp is brought up to something like that in the tank before undertaking water changes.


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Frase said:


> my theory isnt crushed, you stil are a 1 tracked mind. People have different theories and i am sure theres more than 1 way to skin a cat? :? lolz
> 
> And hmmm...by puppies....what do you mean? is this appropriate talk for this part of forum? hahaha


Your theory is daft as I know there are many ways to achieve the same thing. Ask Mrs Frase......
Loads of different ways to keep the same fish. But when people keep them in the wrong conditions for them to thrive it's only fair to point that out. I could go and buy some malawi cichlids now, stick them in a tank with a pH of 6.8, over feed with animal protein (They're vegetarian naturally) so that I get the odd ammonia and nitrite spike and they may well still live. I could post this on a forum, and have some smart arse tell me to change their diet and increase the pH to a more natural 7.5. And then say, well mine are fine so it must be OK.......

But what's best for the fish? 

You need to understand animal keepers (Fish and otherwise) often keep them in a way that's more suited to the keeper, rather than the species concerned. Clown loach are a shoaling species. They're also relatively expensive compared to other common trops. So people often buy just one or two. They're better in a shoal. If you can't or don't want to spend the money, leave them in the shop... That's just one example.

Try and see things from a point of view where the fishes needs come first and the keepers second.... That's why I appear the way I do to you. If only you had my vision eh.....


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

pugant06 said:


> *NO WAY* - I do know better than to use a hot tap for anything aquatic.
> 
> And before you ask for anything tropical the water temp is brought up to something like that in the tank before undertaking water changes.


Not everyone knows. Many 1970's houses have a copper pipe for their hot tap. A fact that has caught out many marine invert keepers over the years. Did the shop test for copper?


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## pugant06 (Jan 23, 2009)

Point taken MJ75

No, not done a copper test but may do at some point out of curiosity. But as i said the rest of the zoo are fine.

Now talked the wife into looking for an alternative species when completing stocking this tank.


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

pugant06 said:


> Point taken MJ75
> 
> No, not done a copper test but may do at some point out of curiosity. But as i said the rest of the zoo are fine.
> 
> Now talked the wife into looking for an alternative species when completing stocking this tank.


To be honest, I think it's a no brainer. A pH of 8.5 is way too high for your loaches. You never actually answered what the shops pH is? Could you ask them? Let say it's 7 for arguments sake, a change of 1.5 will stress and kill many species.


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## pugant06 (Jan 23, 2009)

I did answer yes to this.

A sample was taken from their tank and tests carried out along side ours. The colour results were practically the same. Reading at 8.5 pH.

I'm off for a cuppa - better do some work when i get back - LOL


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

This hot tap business is a red herring . It has been stated that the house is a 70`s build ,unless there has been any recent new piping fitted all the copper will now have a protective mineral layer.

The cold water will also be running through copper.

The copper poisoning thing came about when people had new hot water tanks fitted and water had been stood for a while.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

Scoffa said:


> Temp range for clowns is 25c - 28c and a ph of between 6-7. They like plenty of room and a group of their own species. They do fine in water low oxygenated water. When setting a tank up I always start with guppy's and get them breeding first, that way I know the water is something like. Clowns like plenty of hiding places and when you get a group of 5 or more together they start to shoal. They are very susceptible to stress which can cause white spot.


Its the low pH that causes the stress 7 to 7.5 is needed for clown loaches.

Let me put this to you and others ,clown loaches eat snails avidly ,they instantly recognise them as a foodstuff and as such must be present in their wild environment.

Water with a pH of six is soft ,there would be no snails in water that acidic their shells would dissolve.

The flowing waters in Thailand and Cambodia do not stand still enough to get acidic ,the water has flowed down the mountains picking up minerals as it goes.

Since i started keeping clown loaches in a lower temp and a higher pH i haven`t had one incidence of whitespot in the last 20 years.

You lot carry on as you are i know which way i`ll be doing it.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

MJ75 said:


> Really??? Every book I've ever read must be wrong then? So was my chemistry teacher at school. You must be very clever hun...
> 
> Cheers hunny
> 
> xxx


Check your facts ,you are getting it wrong.


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Graylord said:


> Its the low pH that causes the stress 7 to 7.5 is needed for clown loaches.
> 
> Let me put this to you and others ,clown loaches eat snails avidly ,they instantly recognise them as a foodstuff and as such must be present in their wild environment.
> 
> ...


 
Sing along with Gaylord now everybody.... Sing along....

YouTube - Frank Sinatra, My Way, With Lyrics


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## dan51 (Sep 26, 2008)

MJ75 said:


> YouTube - Frank Sinatra, My Way, With Lyrics


some nice easy listening :cheers:


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

MJ75 said:


> Sing along with Gaylord now everybody.... Sing along....
> 
> YouTube - Frank Sinatra, My Way, With Lyrics


It`s the blind leading the blind with you lot .

Being doing it five minutes and your all experts .

And you are one of the most dangerous ,nearly all the info you churn out comes form books or the net what use is that.

You shouldn`t be giving advice unless it`s from personal experience it has zero value otherwise.


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Graylord said:


> It`s the blind leading the blind with you lot .
> 
> Being doing it five minutes and your all experts .
> 
> ...


 
30 years actualy...

Worked in retail and wholesale environments. Had fish rooms breeding trops and marines (shrimp) on a semi commercial scale. I keep upto date with the latest products as I also run an aquatics business. Very little advise comes from books, though I have a massive fish book library. I use respected sources so that other forum members can make up their own mind.

The rantings of some old bloke from deepest, darkest Lincolnshire vs proven facts and scientific evidence is something the other members can decide on.

The problem you have is that you're one of the chuck it and chance it, I've done it so it must be OK brigade... If you engaged your brain, think about what's actually been written rather than seeing everything through the my way rose tinted glasses you wear, so might see that just because someone does it one way doesn't mean it's the best way... I think you're too ignorant and stubborn to see that though. Your snail comment is bull. I have snails in acidic water... In this day and age, anyone can check the temperature and pH of a fishes natural habitat within seconds. Happy to prove you wrong if you like, or has everyone else got it wrong and you're the only person who should be keeping fish (Your way of course)...


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Graylord said:


> Its the low pH that causes the stress 7 to 7.5 is needed for clown loaches.
> 
> Let me put this to you and others ,clown loaches eat snails avidly ,they instantly recognise them as a foodstuff and as such must be present in their wild environment.
> 
> ...


By the way. Which coutries do they come from? I think I know where you've gone wrong? After all, hypothetically if they don't come from Thailand and Cambodia would that mean that your advice is in fact bull?

Chromobotia macracanthus, Clown loach : fisheries, aquarium


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## Scoffa (Nov 23, 2006)

Graylord said:


> Its the low pH that causes the stress 7 to 7.5 is needed for clown loaches.
> 
> Let me put this to you and others ,clown loaches eat snails avidly ,they instantly recognise them as a foodstuff and as such must be present in their wild environment.
> 
> ...


If you're that good why haven't you bred any clown loaches yet?:notworthy:

My post was there to help, but in all eventualities I don't give a monkeys what anybody else says or does.


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Graylord said:


> Its the low pH that causes the stress 7 to 7.5 is needed for clown loaches.


Are they stressed in the wild. After all they're found in waters with a pH range going down to 6. Please explain...



Graylord said:


> Let me put this to you and others ,clown loaches eat snails avidly ,they instantly recognise them as a foodstuff and as such must be present in their wild environment.


They eat snails in the aquarium. In the wild they eat worms, crustaceans and plant matter. You're assuming they eat snails. Which species have they been found to eat in the wild?



Graylord said:


> Water with a pH of six is soft ,there would be no snails in water that acidic their shells would dissolve.


I have stock tanks here next to me that prove that to be untrue. Are you honestly saying everyone who has snails in their aquarium with acidic water will see their snails shells dissolved. Get real for gods sake!!!



Graylord said:


> The flowing waters in Thailand and Cambodia do not stand still enough to get acidic ,the water has flowed down the mountains picking up minerals as it goes.


Is this more assumption? Clown loach are not native to these two countries, so your point is? Funny though I've been to Thailand. I went trecking in the jungle to see what tropical fish I could find. The water was acidic... Oh yeah, doesn't the amazon start in the mountains? Can you name me a river anywhere thats more famous? Is the water there acidic or alkaline? You don't have a clue do you Franky hunnny....



Graylord said:


> Since i started keeping clown loaches in a lower temp and a higher pH i haven`t had one incidence of whitespot in the last 20 years.
> 
> You lot carry on as you are i know which way i`ll be doing it.


I certainly will do hunny. Thanks for the entertainment though.


Still, if you've never read any books, or other experiences and gone it alone without considering what other people may have proven your bound to struggle....


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## dan51 (Sep 26, 2008)

I think you got owned there Graylord : victory:


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## dan51 (Sep 26, 2008)

Graylord said:


> You shouldn`t be giving advice unless it`s from personal experience it has zero value otherwise.


So no one should bother reading books or use the internet to get information?


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## Trillian (Jul 14, 2008)

If the tank wasn't properly cycled by using ammonia as a subsitute for fish waste or adding filter squeezings from an established tank, then I suspect the fish died due to toxic levels of ammonia and/or nitrite. :hmm:

Sadly, a very, very common occurrence as most LFS tell people that you let the tank water stand, throw in a few doses of so-called "cycling" products and then add fish. End result? Dead fish...:devil:

If you read the Sticky on Fishless Cycling, that will tell you the best and safest way to set up a new tank. Also, Clown Loaches are a shoaling species, should be kept in groups of 5-6 individuals and need a 400L+ tank in the long run as they grow very large...: victory:


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## fishboy (Aug 7, 2007)

Don't clown loaches come from Borneo + Sumatra? I used to keep a large shoal of them and tiger barbs in a heavily planted tank. Ph was 8-8.5 (london tap water) and temp was 28-29. They were the healthiest fattest looking clown loaches i ever saw and the water was crystal clear. 2 x external filters (fluval 303 + 403) and i loved them. Until my dad and half sister came round one day and she poured a WHOLE POT of tetra prima into the tank and i didn't notice until 2 hours later when the tank was bright red and everything except 2 tiger barbs dead. My dad never gave me a penny back though she killed about £200 worth of fish and i was devastated. W*nker.


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## Trillian (Jul 14, 2008)

OMG, fishboy...how awful! :gasp:


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## dan51 (Sep 26, 2008)

thats horrific fishboy  it sounds like it was a great tank


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

let me go read the entire thread and see what folks are talking about here... i'll be back... maybe.: victory:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

some clown loaches died eh?


here's how i introduce any new fish...

i get my fish bucket... i always buy my fish and request a large bag with plenty of water in it when i buy any fish... i put the fish and water in the bucket and wait a good 10-20 minutes to let them settle in the bucket after all the sloshing they've been through... then i get a length of aquarium airline tubing and slowly syphon water from the tank into the bucket... taking a hour or more to fill the bucket up pretty much... a little water at a time... then i drain some water out of the bucket and add even more from the tank.... this might take hours depending on the fish...

after the temps are the same and the fish are essentially in the tank water and have had a chance to slowly acclimate, i put in some stress coat in the bucket to replace the slime coating that may be damaged... then i replace the tank water that had been removed with fresh...

i scoop the fish out with a plastic cup or whatever is the proper size for the fish and place them into the tank after the tank fish are fed and the lights are out....

it sounds like a lot i know but i take my time... it's easy... just watch t.v. and do a little at a time..

temperature shock, osmotic shock, Ph shock... all these things are less of a threat when i do this...

.. it's just how i do things...

often i'll even treat the tank prophylactically with a broad spectrum antibiotic that attacks both gram positive and negative bacteria...

a quarantine tank is best but i never use one...

... just go slow is my motto....

this post is likely irrelevant here though...

i rarely have problems i have to say...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

alright then... i guess my method is rfuk approved then!:lol2:


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

HABU said:


> alright then... i guess my method is rfuk approved then!:lol2:


 
Haha! You know what you're doing fella. Even if you guys do have weird sized gallons and stuff. Hows things with your mum? PM me if you like.


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

Having read all the bitching on this thread,ill share my Experience with Clown Loach.I have 4 very large clowns (and im not talking about some of the posters in this thread...),swimming in a large tank next to me.Ive live in the greater london area where the ph of tap water is 8,i do 50% water changes weekly using the hot tap to balance the temps (no inverts in my tank).My biggest loach is around 9-10",temp is 25-26c.They are housed with polypterus,BGK,cichlids,datnoides and others.They are the toughest,most aggressive fish in the tank,it often sounds like a gun battle at feeding time.Nothing messes with the biggest one,and ive seen a lot of breeding activity (but no spawning).They take floating cichlid gold pellets,bloodworm,and anything meaty put in for other fish.Recently an elderley barb was dieing from old age,and the clowns seeing weakness,tore it to shreds with a ferocity to put piranhas to shame.I run a 305 and a 405 with a uv.And for the record they originate from borneo and sumatra,but are often farmed in singapore and thailand,where water temp would be high 20s,and Ph fairly low.MJ75 may be abrasive,but knows what hes talking about.


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Berber King said:


> ive seen a lot of breeding activity (but no spawning)..


Somewhere I have a copy of a publication called Aquarium digest, produced bt Tetra, it's old. Maybe 25 years or so old. There was a short article from an aquarist keeping a number of large clown loaches in a large aquarium. He never witnessed any spawning behaviour, but did find baby clown loach in his tank. More recently there was an article in PFK about another claimed spawning, yet many people believe they are yet to be bred in a home aquarium due to mans scepticism and a lack of evidence.

I think they've not yet been bred (At least with any documented accounts) as few people have the resources to undertake the challenge. Very few keepers have large loaches as they lack the aquarium and knowledge to grow them on to such a size, IMHO of course! I confess it's a project I've considered more than once, but have never gotten around to setting up a large tank equipped with manifold etc. I think if I did, there are a number of things I'd try in an attempt to find the "spawning trigger" etc. I'm curious as to whether the breeding behaviou you have witnessed has been triggered by anything in particular?

I suspect with the predatory nature of your tank inhabitants that any subsequent fry would dissapear before you ever saw them, but I'd be fascinated to hear if yours ever spawned and what the subsequent trigger was.



Berber King said:


> MJ75 may be abrasive


Sad, but true. I'm about ready to stop trying to help others on forums as whatever you say will always be questioned, disputed or subject to ridicule.


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## dan51 (Sep 26, 2008)

MJ75 said:


> More recently there was an article in PFK about another claimed spawning


Was that not later proved to be using hormone injections or something along those lines to induce them to spawn? I know there was an account of that but cant remember where i heard it.


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

dan51 said:


> Was that not later proved to be using hormone injections or something along those lines to induce them to spawn? I know there was an account of that but cant remember where i heard it.


They've been bred using hormone injection for a while now. Many popular, hard to breed aquarium fish such as Synodontis catfish are bred the same way. This is why the hobby is becoming flooded with Syno hybrids as the fish farms can cross breed them easily.

The account was an unproven "natural spawning". I still believe it can be done....


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## Kev132 (Aug 13, 2006)

Did the OP fix this in the end ? gosh there is so much bitching in this thread,

Mj, the person who corrected you was right, a change in 1 full ph measure (say 6 to 7) is 10 times, so 7 is 10 times more alkaline than 6, 8 is 100 times more alkaline than 6... and so on...

Although a PH of 8.5 is not ideal for clown loach, i dont think thats what is killing them so quickly, as the store's PH is very high also....

Sorry if this has been asked already, but theres so much bickering its hard to read through, but how are they behaving before dying ? oxygen sounds plausible but you'd usually notice some gasping and sitting in the higher levels of the tank.

The copper idea i dont buy into, MOST decent water conditioners will tie this up anyway....

one thing to remember, at such a high ph, even a tiny ammount of ammonia is extremelly toxic, where it wouldnt be so in a tank with a lower ph.... what test kit are the store using to test your ammonia ?


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Kev132

That means all 3 of us have different theories as your's differs from both mine and Graylords. 

Best


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## Kev132 (Aug 13, 2006)

MJ75 said:


> Kev132
> 
> That means all 3 of us have different theories as your's differs from both mine and Graylords.
> 
> Best


Not my theory, its fact.... 

as per pH Scale

The pH scale is logarithmic and as a result, each whole pH value below 7 is ten times more acidic than the next higher value. For example, pH 4 is ten times more acidic than pH 5 and 100 times (10 times 10) more acidic than pH 6. The same holds true for pH values above 7, each of which is ten times more alkaline (another way to say basic) than the next lower whole value. For example, pH 10 is ten times more alkaline than pH 9 and 100 times (10 times 10) more alkaline than pH 8.


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## Gemificus (Jan 26, 2007)

i know its a silly question but can't fish adapt??

i have a tropical tank with a pH of between 6.5 and 7, some of the fish in it require 7.5+ but have been living perfectly for months without any problems, 

i was rushed into hospital a couple of weeks ago and when i got home no one had realized that the heater had blown in my largest tank during my time away and the lights were not turned on as my neighbor was only popping in to feed them and work the curtains when i got home the tank was below 20 degrees and they were all fine, i cant say how long it had been so low but i warmed it up again gradually so not to shock them and haven't had any problems, with the size of the tank and temperature of my flat it had to have been a few days, as a tank without a heater just lights usually drops 3 degrees at night, i had a clown loach living in this tank for a long time but a outbreak of Ick wrongly diagnosed as white spot took it about 3 months ago if that


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

Kev132 said:


> Did the OP fix this in the end ? gosh there is so much bitching in this thread,
> 
> Mj, the person who corrected you was right, a change in 1 full ph measure (say 6 to 7) is 10 times, so 7 is 10 times more alkaline than 6, 8 is 100 times more alkaline than 6... and so on...
> 
> ...


Thank christ at last someone who knows what they are talking about ,its like a breath of fresh air :2thumb:

It gets stifling in here .


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

Kev132 said:


> Not my theory, its fact....
> 
> as per pH Scale
> 
> The pH scale is logarithmic and as a result, each whole pH value below 7 is ten times more acidic than the next higher value. For example, pH 4 is ten times more acidic than pH 5 and 100 times (10 times 10) more acidic than pH 6. The same holds true for pH values above 7, each of which is ten times more alkaline (another way to say basic) than the next lower whole value. For example, pH 10 is ten times more alkaline than pH 9 and 100 times (10 times 10) more alkaline than pH 8.


:notworthy:


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Gaylord said:


> Thank christ at last someone who knows what they are talking about ,its like a breath of fresh air :2thumb:
> 
> It gets stifling in here .


'tis indeed. Most of the morons who post in here don't even know where their fish come from! :whistling2: :gasp: :2thumb:


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## Gemificus (Jan 26, 2007)

reading the thread over, your introducing your loach into a tank containing gorrami's right?

gorrami's cope will with low oxygen water as the are built for it, possibly if the clown loach have adapted to the ph level to thrive in the shop at the same level then this isn't that huge of an issue, but will need to be corrected to ensure a longer life

is their any way of testing your oxygen levels against the shop as one small pump can't always do enough in a larger tank, i know i only have a 1 pump in my large tank but a lot of live plants that also raise oxygen levels,

i'm not trying to tell you what to do I'm just trying to help


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## benleo (Sep 26, 2009)

your using sand?
toxic gases build up under the sand and clown fish sift through this i had that problem with sand so stopped using it. 

may not be your problem just thought id say because i had a problem with it. 

hope alls well now 

Ben


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## pugant06 (Jan 23, 2009)

Back in on this and reading through all the good (and indifferent) gen you folks have come up with.

I think HABU may have 'hit the nail on the head' to some extent and i will be reveiwing my new fish introduction method.

I have written off the pH theory as cause of death. Having visited another establishment nearby whos water was very little difference to mine and the place i bought fish from. Yes, they had clowns in stock as well.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

pugant06 said:


> Back in on this and reading through all the good (and indifferent) gen you folks have come up with.
> 
> I think HABU may have 'hit the nail on the head' to some extent and i will be reveiwing my new fish introduction method.
> 
> I have written off the pH theory as cause of death. Having visited another establishment nearby whos water was very little difference to mine and the place i bought fish from. Yes, they had clowns in stock as well.


 habu do good?:lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Gemificus said:


> reading the thread over, your introducing your loach into a tank containing gorrami's right?
> 
> gorrami's cope will with low oxygen water as the are built for it, possibly if the clown loach have adapted to the ph level to thrive in the shop at the same level then this isn't that huge of an issue, but will need to be corrected to ensure a longer life
> 
> ...


 surface agitation... you have to breakup the surface tension of water... this is why i use aquaclear filters and/or powerheads...


If you could see molecules of water and how they act, you would notice that each water molecule electrically attracts its neighbors. Each has two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom, H20. The extraordinary stickiness of water is due to the two hydrogen atoms, which are arranged on one side of the molecule and are attracted to the oxygen atoms of other nearby water molecules in a state known as "hydrogen bonding." (If the molecules of a liquid did not attract one another, then the constant thermal agitation of the molecules would cause the liquid to instantly boil or evaporate. 







Hydrogen atoms have single electrons which tend to spend a lot of their time "inside" the water molecule, toward the oxygen atom, leaving their outsides naked, or positively charged. The oxygen atom has eight electrons, and often a majority of them are around on the side away from the hydrogen atoms, making this face of the atom negatively charged. Since opposite charges attract, it is no surprise that the hydrogen atoms of one water molecule like to point toward the oxygen atoms of other molecules. Of course in the liquid state, the molecules have too much energy to become locked into a fixed pattern; nevertheless, the numerous temporary "hydrogen bonds" between molecules make water an extraordinarly sticky fluid. 
Within the water, at least a few molecules away from the surface, every molecule is engaged in a tug of war with its neighbors on every side. For every "up" pull there is a "down" pull, and for every "left" pull there is a "right" pull, and so on, so that any given molecule feels no net force at all. At the surface things are different. There is no up pull for every down pull, since of course there is no liquid above the surface; thus the surface molecules tend to be pulled back into the liquid. It takes work to pull a molecule up to the surface. If the surface is stretched - as when you blow up a bubble - it becomes larger in area, and more molecules are dragged from within the liquid to become part of this increased area. This "stretchy skin" effect is called surface tension. Surface tension plays an important role in the way liquids behave. If you fill a glass with water, you will be able to add water above the rim of the glass because of surface tension. 

You can float a paper clip on the surface of a glass of water. Before you try this you should know that it helps if the paper clip is a little greasy so the water doesn't stick to it (rub it on your nose or forehead.) Place the paper clip on a fork and lower it slowly into the water. The paper clip is supported by the surface-tension skin of the water.







The water strider is an insect that hunts its prey on the surface of still water; it has widely spaced feet rather like the pads of a lunar lander. The skin-like surface of the water is depressed under the water strider's feet.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

It is vitally important that we supply our critters with water that is constantly well oxygenated through aeration and or circulation.



*W*ater circulation is undoubtedly the most important parameter for the successful fish only or reef tank. Without water circulation life will not exist; it provides oxygenated water, removes toxic gases like CO2, and transports nutrients throughout the man made biotope. Without water circulation, whether due to a power outage or pump failure, animals that need oxygen begin to die quite quickly. And, there are biochemical reasons for this.

Respiration
The vast majority of organisms that we keep in our marine tanks respire. They consume oxygen from their environment where it is transported via their circulatory system into their cells. This permits vital metabolism to occur within the cells. Also, as part of this cellular metabolism carbon dioxide (CO2) is produced. In human beings this is called breathing. We, however, extract oxygen from the air and release carbon dioxide into the air. This is significant because the animals we keep in our marine aquariums need to extract oxygen from water which contains far less oxygen then that of air. The result of that is that our marine fish for example must take in 10 to 30 times the volume of water than terrestrial animals take in from the air to respire successfully. It is therefore vitally important that we supply our critters with water that is constantly well oxygenated through aeration and or circulation.
*Gas Exchange*

Essentially our goal in creating a successful marine tank is to maintain as close as possible water that is saturated with oxygen and that successfully dispels carbon dioxide. Although aeration from an air stone, or better within the chamber of a protein skimmer contributes somewhat, most of the gas exchange takes place through the water’s surface. The air-water interface is where this gas exchange takes place, and anything that interferes with this vital exchange is dangerous to the health of our organisms. However, between the air and the water is a thin film called by oceanographers a laminar layer, which interferes with said gas exchange. The thinner this film the more efficient the gas exchange.
*Laminar layer*
In the ocean the thickness of the laminar layer ranges from 0.002 to 0.020 centimeters, mostly determined by surface agitation, like wave action.​In the ocean the thickness of the laminar layer ranges from 0.002 to 0.020 centimeters, mostly determined by surface agitation, like wave action.
How do we then thin or even get close to eliminating this laminar layer or skin, so that efficient gas exchange can take place? This layer is the result of pressure between the atmosphere and the water. Diffusion of gases through this layer increases in efficiency the thinner the laminar layer. The most direct way to promote gas exchange threw this layer is to agitate the water’s surface. On the simplest level stirring the water helps significantly. The can be done with a mechanical paddle or air bubbles breaking the surface. However, there are much better ways.
To complicate matters organic molecules made up of nitrogenous organic material and simple detritus collects on the surface, further impeding necessary gas exchange. When there is no or little surface agitation this organic slick is easily visible to the naked eye, especially when looked at from below the surface. Removal of surface water also aids in the transmission of light to the corals if you are plumbing a reef tank.


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## pugant06 (Jan 23, 2009)

Well i told the wife to read the lastest posts on her clown loach losses.

Shes still shaking her head :lol2: :lol2:

I asume its up to me to sort it out.

Joking aside, i have just purchased my own more extensive test kit. Overall results were great. So SHE said 'oh no need to do a partial water change then'. To which i had to explain thats why they are good because we are doing them!!!!

WOMEN EH???


OPPS - thats upset the female members who read this - :lol2: :lol2:


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## pugant06 (Jan 23, 2009)

*OUCH *- just been clipped around the ear - SHE read what i just wrote - Your fault HABU


:lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

fish don't like closed systems... water changes are quick and easy... i do them once a week or so... use a syphon and 5 gallon bucket and pull some water out... you can do it often or not... i can pull five gallons out and replace it in what?... 5 minutes or less?

lakes... there are river fish and lake fish... either way, they are both open systems...

a lake for example... go look at one... anyone... i bet there is at least one stream going into it and at least one leading out of it... plus you have rainfall and other runoff... water's always going in and going out of the lake or pond... if it isn't, then it get stagnant and there will be no life there...

it's not practical at home to have water constantly going in your tank and drain 24/7... so we change water...

also, frequent water changes allow the fish to not get used to your less than perfect water conditions... some folks just top off their tanks as the water evaporates... the fish do fine... they get used to the water you have... but then you go and get some new ones and they perish or do poorly... old tank syndrome it's called...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

by the way... my cory cats are at it again... i took these pics yesterday... 



















oh and those little white hairs are just airbubbles... i hand to hand hold the camera at a slower shutterspeed to get the pics... so those tiny bubbles look like worms or something...:lol2:


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## pugant06 (Jan 23, 2009)

Some very good points on water changes very well put HABU

May go for the little but often changes on this tank rather than pulling off 25% each week and see how it goes.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

Sad, but true. I'm about ready to stop trying to help others on forums as whatever you say will always be questioned, disputed or subject to ridicule. [/QUOTE](mj75)

I wish you would people like you are a menace ,if your info was based on first hand accounts i`d take it on.

But passing on infornation you have read means nothing you haven`t a clue as to what you are reading is fact or fiction.

As i`ve said before only first hand experience is of value .Habu has it on the nail usually ,he`s been there done it ,got several tee shirts.

Sadly you are not the only armchair expert/barrack room lawyer on here.

And all your sarcy comments mean nothing ,you just sound like a loser to me.


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Gaylord said:


> I wish you would people like you are a menace ,if your info was based on first hand accounts i`d take it on.
> 
> But passing on infornation you have read means nothing you haven`t a clue as to what you are reading is fact or fiction.
> 
> ...


Hi hunny, you missed me? :flrt:

I have loads of first hand experience, loads more than you! LOL Thats how I know you don't have a clue. I've probably forgotten more than you'll ever know to be honest. Harsh, but true.  

How come you're selling all your reps anyway? Have Prozak and Special Brew prices gone up? :gasp:


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