# Wake Up Call



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Hello, 

In the past few weeks, many of our readers have agreed, disagreed, and held many other emotions with our posts and some of our images. Some have not seen where the Pro Keepers' Lobby has been heading. 

The initial phase [Wake Up Call] of the pro keepers lobby has been set very deliberately to 'awaken, arouse or simply to alert the keeper' that we are something new. We are not a society but a lobby. Our aims and goals are very different to that of the role of the hobbiest society.

Having now held several discussions with PKL members, PR team and our higher level supporters, Pro Keepers Lobby now that it has 'as said' alerted many keepers to its presence will now roll forwards in its primary task of serious campaigning on and behalf of the private animal keeper.

Our images and flyers have been very specifically designed to cause interaction and response. Now however, we will press on with the more serious side to our responsibilities.

We have two main campaigns in general:

Focus on Society:

Main role ; to encourage and further motivate membership into societies, through identification of strengths and weakness's. This is to build up a much needed base of support in the keepers' society, and as such to increase the hobbies voice.

FOCAS on Unification:

Main role ; to identify, locate and encourage new society affiliateship into Federation of Companion Animal Societies. Highlighting the advantages of such an interaction for the good of the keeper and society alike.

Secondary role ; Pro Keepers Lobby to become more active and visual as/in a supportive team and role to FOCAS

Secondary Campaigns:

Individual Emotive Isues that in the main are seen to be aggressively attacking the private keeper movement within the United Kingdom.

European Protected Species, Private Keepers Licencing, Retail Aid.....

We have been referred to as many things in the past few weeks by readers to this forum.

One of which is a 'militant organization'. In the main this description is not entirely correct - to replace passion and dedication with the word militant would not be totally accurate. Having said this, PKL may in the following months lead others to feel this way, and whilst we are not specifically orientated towards that leaning, we will not deny that in todays unsettled and new political and legislational climate, this would not be such a bad notion to carry.

Our campaigns for the private keeper will be hard, and some will be aggressive to all our opponents of which we are clearly aware come from all market segments. I will not deny this. The fact is that many feel we alienate, again - not entirely true, although we could understand why some may view us as such. Our main enemies are as follows:

Apathy, Ignorance and Opposition.

We are still looking to recruit volunteers into PKL and l thank all of our current volunteers for the work undertaken to date.

PKL will keep you in touch to our movements and progess.

Thanks for reading

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Do you think an aggressive approach is going to work on the whole? Do you have any examples of clubs/societies/lobbies etc gaining more support than haters when using an agreesive approach?

Even though you stand for what i believe, you dont have my support, it all looks amateur and a complete mess to me. You come across as an intelligent guy, but your actions or plan of action make you come across as a hippy student going out to cause trouble "for a good cause" or what ever excuse they use.

It saddens me to think that the only people who share my views want to approach things this way, i can see it doing us more harm than good.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*...............*

Hi WTP, 

On a whole, you ask?

As a package within a campaign there are certain paths we will follow that will be seen as aggressive - will they work?

Some will, yes, it will of course depend on whom we are specifically launching a direct assault on.

Societies, clubs and associations [reptile related] are not following any kind of specific political approach at this present time as they have found that general apathy to any kind of talk, subject or discussion in and on these matters is not welcomed by their members.

Animals being purchased, added to collections and such like is what the main bulk of keepers wish to discuss these days more so than actual legislation and protocols connected to their hobbies.

I believe in time and that may be relatively short in duration, societies, clubs and associations will in fact have a represented part of their literature holding bulleted points on these matters.

Valid comments, and these are being atended to this week, however the first was to identify where the markets' overall thinking was before we could successfully acredit work to and proceed from that point forwards.

Hippy, looking to cause trouble for whatever cause - entitled to your opinion of course.

Just one quick question, do you belong to a society, club or organization currently? For my advice is to talk to them and ask what they are currently working on with regards to legislational procedure and politics. Then support them, there you will do the most good, as it is the laters' main role to ensure that your voice is heard alongside their membership.

The biggest problem we have is that far too many people hold views similiar to those of PKL and do not want to be seen as trouble makers or causing the silt to shift. They would prefer to bide time and await for things to happen, or perhaps the job will be done by others.

We hold hobbies in very troubled times, pressured climates and our hobbies that we so value are at times closer to the brink of end rather than in full swing. But due to the others holding the wolves at bay, keepers generally do not see any major problems until it arrives at their door.

An example is the 'meet' at the Basildon show, yes for some the journey would have been long, but many whom are prepared to travel a fair distance to attend and purchase animals, could well have also attended the meeting with Chris Newman and Gordon Glasson that was there. Many acknowledged they would attend, and of course they did not make an appearance. Like it or not, this is apathy, this is ignorance to what lies just beyond our climate.

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)




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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

I would have loved to be at the 'meeting' but it was held while the show was in full swing and I was the only one on the table - I couldn't leave it...
Although I hear there was more talk about how stupid the EPS stuff was than anything that can be done about it.

I must admit - that seems to be the way things are going, all rally round to talk about how awful/stupid/annoying it is, but nothing about what to actually DO.

Now, I know I'm not an ideas person, but I am trying - I've written to defra, I'm going to call once I'm back at work with a phone to use... I'm thinking about how I can apply for these licenses - how to give it a go without putting animals lives at risk, planning a recruitment/poster day round the local pet shops...
Then I ran out of ideas - but if I can think of something to actually do, surely there are other people who can do the same?
A lot of talk and all that...

No, I don't really want to use the very aggressive approcah - that's not who I am and not how I do things best. I'll behave how I always have, friendly and polite - because I personally get more done that way. The PKL approach is fine as long as there is a 'nicer' option. We are trying to gain the trust of the general public here - the mum with kids in a pushchair or pensioner is not going to be drawn to a poster with the word b#####ds on the top! (thanks Rory for a more 'public friendly' version!) but we need their support as much as we need every other individual persons support.

A long post for me - but all the complaining and saying we should do something without any ideas as what to do is as bad as total apathy in my mind - it's as much use. I know a lot of people don't have ideas - I know the feeling, but those that do could share (Ssthisto is one I can think of with sharing ideas, the e-mail was on her suggestion) and the rest of us can DO, that's what's going to count.

Hope it makes sense!

Ally


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Im not a member of any club or society but was hoping to support PKL because i think you have the right idea in general. I dont like the idea of supporting an organisation who are going to be aggressive though, it doesnt work imo and give people the wrong impression.

For me, you share my views but i feel ive got to distance myself from you because I dont want to be associated with "Political riff raff". Its a big shame


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*too true*

Hi Ally, 

You are quite right........even l was sadly disappointed with the meeting.For l learned a few things that startled me and Dan Fryer l hasten to add. Nerys would have told you that. Of those that were present, that were new to it, perhaps they felt that there was some glean to be achieved?

As to ideas, some have been discussed, EPS was a topic, Wild Caught was a topic, the latter which made a brief reference to a thread on this forum entitled Reptiles Skinned Alive.

l placed in a retail topic, of which PKL will be following through with and to some extent have already started. We do believe this if handled correctly could carry some weight to it.

Again Ally, as you well know, we are not all aggressive, and some of the campaigns we have are aimed at specific segments of the market, these segments are Societies, DEFRA, the keeper, with an overall visual against those that oppose.

Again you know, that we do have softer options available as in the case of the flyer. Where agreed, it is nicer for granny or mummy pushing the pram to be associated with.

I do have other ideas and the PKL and l will work through them. Some may well be addressed on this forum, others will be PKL teams alone.

WTP, your views would be welcomed within the team, but perhaps instead of slating full stop political riff raff, you need to find out what the long overhaul is first. As said there are topics l will be countering on this forum and there will be others that will not touch base here at all.

We can not please all the people al the time, as the adage goes.

R
PKL


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## Testudo Man (Aug 3, 2005)

As "tacklebury" once said in (Police Acadamy)...

Guns guns, when do we get guns : victory:...T.T.8)


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Let me read your views...*

Do you think an aggressive approach is going to work on the whole? 
It saddens me to think that the only people who share my views want to approach things this way, i can see it doing us more harm than good.
For me, you share my views but I feel I’ve got to distance myself from you because I don’t want to be associated with "Political riff raff". Its a big shame 
I don’t like the idea of supporting an organisation who are going to be aggressive though, it doesn’t work imo and give people the wrong impression.

WTP

I have highlighted these lines from your posts for a reason, as l have sat back and given them considerable thought. So that l can answer them properly instead of answering in a universal fashion across the board to one email.

This is my opinion, a personal opinion. I do speak on behalf of my involvement with PKL.

For too long the keeper has sat back and allowed or by choice others/self to place their heads in the sand.

We all makes mistakes and whilst many believe the fist was an error, l do not. I still believe in the fist as it worked in grabbing attention. It was never aimed or seen to be used in any kind of sexually offensive manner. 

To be perfectly frank, if you were green with yellow spots, three legs and two rabbit ears, it would not bother me - for it is your opinion that should be heard and not your outward appearance. 

As a keeper, you have the right to keep.

Too many keepers are munching into the fate cake of acceptance and biting the bullet that those that oppose on both the anti side and the non keeping side that perhaps we should not be kicking up a fight for what we apparently believe in.

Well this is not acceptable under any circumstances. The fist was an act of solidarity, a salute to our passion, our beliefs, our commitment and our dedication. It was basically a stiff two fingered salute to those who would see us crumble and fall.

In the main our opponents at present are many, non keepers who think we are the oddballs, DEFRA who think we are ‘silly’ for complaining about the EPS legislation, the ignorant whom are too lazy to think of anything else but apathy and the antis who want to see us stop what we believe in.

Are we aggressive? To an apathetic nation of keepers who want to see us sit quietly, and just leave things and not stir up any problems for those that oppose - then yes we are.

Writing letters to MP’s, keep doing it, l have written nine in the last four years and have the same responses come back and every time another year passes, something else is introduced and more of the hobby for all is deducted. I will not say to others do not write, but l do say continue to write, monthly if need be, not just one and think your job is done.

Your voice has the right to be heard as does indeed do your actions - oh l talk not of digging up grandmothers or ‘releasing animals’ or placing firebombs into employees vehicles or though their letter boxes, but l do talk of a strength of unification.

As one, we will not be heard even as two, but if we start to build from there then our voice will be heard. To talk of not belonging to a society is like signing your own execution order. If you do not wish to support PKL, that is your prerogative, but do not state that you can support the ideas and concept in notion, but can not abide aggressiveness.

The opposition are aggressive and they are many, and they are funded so much better than we are. They could really dismantle us if push came to shove. The Animal Welfare Act alone can dismantle most pet keeping fraternities in a single blow and would not even pay the slightest heed to what it had just done.

The pen is mightier than the sword, you will say. 

Yes in many ways you are correct, but how are you using your pen? How is your voice currently being heard?

Your avatar speaks volumes about you in a way, ‘we the people’ with what appears to be blood dripping down, Is this not aggressive, or the result once violence has been committed?

To do nothing, yet pick off at tangent is not acceptable either.

Join a society if you find our approach too hard for your senses.

Or just watch whilst we correct our errors and endeavour to get more people involved in fighting their fight, our fight, your fight.

Is aggression going to work?

Well to those that watch this site whom oppose in a way yes, for it will show to them that we will not sit down and back and let them rough shod us continually and take away our passions, that perhaps there is something awakening at long last.

What is the wrong impression? 

To show fight, to show spirit? To show that you care about your hobby? Your Animals?

As said l will gladly take criticism where constructive, but yours is destructive, you are allowing our faults to make your life easy. If it goes wrong there are always those that will say, ‘oh well, l did not get involved, but l did say at the time, that l thought their approach was wrongful’
To sit back and do nothing WTP, there is something wrong with that, in my opinion. Instead of belittling, and condemning why do you not drop me an pm and show me some of your ideas as to how you think we should be approaching this. If you think this devious, then fine, air your ideas here, l will always read and listen to those who want to share and contribute.

Rory Matier 
Pro Keepers Lobby


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Its a shame you see my critism as destructive but im just pointing out that your going to alienate a lot of people sympathetic to your cause. 

Do you remember the fox hunting farce? It went the wrong way when people started digging up peoples grannies and dumping dead horses in the street. A lot of people dont want to go about getting their point across in this manner and im one of them. Id sooner roll over and do nothing than be associated with such people even though they share my ideas. TPK are sounding like a similar bunch, obviously not quite as drastic but still the same "student terrorism" approach to it all.

If someone can put my thoughts forward and fight for what i believe in an adult and responsible manner then they will get my support, whether that will be financially, in person or as little as putting my name on a list i dont know but it certainly wont be to anyone activley taking an aggressive approach.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Fox hunting*

Sorry WTP, 

But what has dead horses and granny digging got to do with fox hunting?

How was the fox hunting a farce? 

Not trying to be naive, but, was not the dead horses to do with racing, the digging up of granny was about l believe guinea pigs and possibly labratory supply.

You talk of fanactism here, l am not talking of that in one little respect.

As to student terrorism? Again l am little at odds with the reason you believe we are like that.

All you had to do was state what ideas you thought may well work.

R


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

WeThePeople said:


> Do you remember the fox hunting farce? It went the wrong way when people started digging up peoples grannies and dumping dead horses in the street.


dead grannies - was not "hunting" it was to do with Huntingdon Life Science..

dead horse in the street? to do with hunting??? not that i can remember.. 

it was however, a group of me old mates who stormed the house of commons and the labour party conference.. but anyway..

PKL, in some ways, has to be agressive, if we are not, what happens? not a lot is what happens..

ask matt harris, he posted about EPS on livefoods 15 months back, in a nice gentle way.. did anyone take a blind bit of notice? no.. course they did not.. as normal, most people sat back and thought "we'll let someone else worry about that"

Rory is always banging on about apathy.. we all know that, (me i get to listen to it all night sometimes) if you google "oppostie of apathy" here are some of the things you get back:

*The opposite of apathy is* being concerned with what is around you

*The opposite of “Apathy” is* “Emoting”

*The opposite of apathy is* follow-up

*The Opposite of Apathy is* a Volunteer

*The opposite of apathy is* passion, and unity is the force in which our passion for

*the opposite of apathy is* caring

*The opposite of apathy is* enthusiastic involvement. Enthusiasm is a belief, an attitude. It is more than an action

*the opposite of apathy is* "strong emotion,"

*the opposite of apathy is* activism. But the people need to be shown a vision worth getting active about


these are all things that i like to think Rory, myself and all the others currently working with PKL are.. 

the time for sitting on the fence is over, too many splinters in too many behinds.. sure we may have to dig with a needle to get some out.. but thats life i guess. you have to make waves, to be able to surf..

Nerys


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I wont be joining the PKL for my own reasons but good luck in your campaign and I hope it does some good.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

It is indeed a shame that more people are not signed up to PKL. Each will have thier own reasons but I thikn most will be that they simply don't understand the whole thing as well as they would like.

I joined PKL the day I heard about it and realised that PKL would be the public voice for rthe keepers of the UK - in a positive way. Not a "pay us your cash and we will be behind the scenes" but a don't pay us anything but share your thoughts with us and show a little support - that is refreshing over and above everything else.

I agree that in some cases, aggression is not the best way and that discression is a key factor in some issues but right now, making people think about what the hobby as a whole faces is the forefront point Rory is making with these threads and if that takes aggression, then so be it. Often a laid back approach simply does not draw the eye nor engage the mind.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Sorry WTP,
> 
> But what has dead horses and granny digging got to do with fox hunting?
> 
> R


When the campaign for banning fox hunting was well under way the Pro hunt supporters dumped a load of dead horses on the street to make a point that the ban would lead to them having to slaughter their hunt horses...

BBC NEWS | Politics | Pro-hunt demo at Labour gathering


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Thanks Pink*

Well, you learn something new everyday.

But l can safely say that l am not into dumping dead animals any where.

I thank Pink for the link [no pun intended there] and offer WTP my appology for lack of knowledge on that front but not the reference that we may be that type of organization.

R


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> Its a shame you see my critism as destructive but im just pointing out that your going to alienate a lot of people sympathetic to your cause.
> 
> Do you remember the fox hunting farce? It went the wrong way when people started digging up peoples grannies and dumping dead horses in the street. A lot of people dont want to go about getting their point across in this manner and im one of them. Id sooner roll over and do nothing than be associated with such people even though they share my ideas. TPK are sounding like a similar bunch, obviously not quite as drastic but still the same "student terrorism" approach to it all.
> 
> If someone can put my thoughts forward and fight for what i believe in an adult and responsible manner then they will get my support, whether that will be financially, in person or as little as putting my name on a list i dont know but it certainly wont be to anyone activley taking an aggressive approach.


WTP
The FBH has always tried to do things the nice way. they have spoken with care to everyone in the hobby, nicely to DEFRA and been polite when speaking with the RSPCA. They have even been friendly when talking to the Antis.
They have achieved a few successes but truth be told, They have been ignored by the larger part of the hobby and stabbed in the back by DEFRA not to mention mugged by the RSPCA and their Anti friends. 

Those that are against us are aggresive, aren't polite and don't give a hoot how many of us they upset. They are extremists, have a lot of financial backing, spend all their time working on their various projects and have the advantage of using proffesional legal people and political lobbyists and they donate huge sums of money to the Labour party. 

You may feel that the methods displayed by Rory and the PKL are too agressive but in reality if we don't rise up to the challenge ahead of us and match our opponents point for point, we will remain the under dogs and it won't be long before there are no pet reptiles to fight for.

You say _'If someone can put my thoughts forward and fight for what i believe in an adult and responsible manner then they will get my support_'
That is what the FBH have been trying to do for the last ten years or more, yet when asked if your a member of any society or clubs you say no. 
It seems to me that a large number of people in this hobby are far more willing to attack those trying to save it than they are those that would have it destroyed. Rory goes on about apathy within the hobby and I feel this infighting goes a long way towards encouraging it. Those that should be supporting don't in case others attack them, many that should be involved won't for fear of coming under attack and many that have got involved in the past have left the fight and gone into hideing because they are sick of all the negativity. 
On a similar note, one of the questions raised at yesterdays meeting was about the lack of defensive replies from people like myself and Chris when the FBH comes under attack from people within the hobby. Well in answer to that question, how much of our valuble time do we have to waste constantly defending our attempts to save this hobby? Rory Has clearly spent time replying to this thread today, as have I with this post. I wonder if he will be as willing in a years time when he has gone over the same arguments, several dozen times.
For all those of you out there that are sitting waiting for the next oppotunity to bitch about the PKL, FBH, FOCAS, REPTA etc just stop and think, you may well be bitching you hobby and animals all the way to a total ban.

Gordon


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

pink said:


> When the campaign for banning fox hunting was well under way the Pro hunt supporters dumped a load of dead horses on the street to make a point that the ban would lead to them having to slaughter their hunt horses...
> 
> BBC NEWS | Politics | Pro-hunt demo at Labour gathering


I believe that it was done in an attempt to get the MPs and the press to listen and take notice. Up to that point they had been nice and polite and totally ignored.

Gordon


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Ally said:


> I would have loved to be at the 'meeting' but it was held while the show was in full swing and I was the only one on the table - I couldn't leave it...
> Although I hear there was more talk about how stupid the EPS stuff was than anything that can be done about it.
> 
> I must admit - that seems to be the way things are going, all rally round to talk about how awful/stupid/annoying it is, but nothing about what to actually DO.
> ...


Ally,
The point of the meeting was to give people the chance to discuss the problems facing the hobby and to put their ideas and hopefully offers of help forward. 
It was set up in answer to a topic on these forums in which a lot of people were suggesting that a chance to get together and discuss things would be a good idea.
Sadly of the dozen forum members that said they were interested in attending only two people managed to put in an appearance, which rather stuffed any chance of many ideas being put forward. 
The meeting was basically an experiment to see if such get togethers might be a positive move forwards, sadly it turned into a gathering of the old guard, who all had little to add that hadn't been covered in the past. 

As experiments go this one was a spectacular success in the study of apathy.

Gordon
I would be apathetic about it all but to be honest I can't be bothered.


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Well, i was running late, got to the bar area at 1.10 and saw no sign of any thing that could have looked like a meeting, so gathered it must have been canx.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

we were outside.. 

N


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

purejurrasic said:


> Well, i was running late, got to the bar area at 1.10 and saw no sign of any thing that could have looked like a meeting, so gathered it must have been canx.


I walked in on the meeting, not realizing it was a meeting. It was outside by the girls football game, we were sitting on a bench.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Trice said:


> I walked in on the meeting, not realizing it was a meeting. It was outside by the girls football game, we were sitting on a bench.


Trice
It was an open meeting and you were most welcome to join in.

Gordon


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

It was good listening to what was said. Even if it is slightly over my head. but you have to start somewhere i guess.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

purejurrasic said:


> Well, i was running late, got to the bar area at 1.10 and saw no sign of any thing that could have looked like a meeting, so gathered it must have been canx.


I did say in the last PM I sent out that we would probably move outside.

Gordon


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*As you......*

............know Gordo.

If we are still fighting against the tidal wave of apathy in a years time, l am joing PETA. LOL

Join the antis now everybody come on, what do we have to lose?

R

Yay the Antis!!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

have you all ever had like a reptile fair and invite the public on a weekend to see reptiles free of charge and with no selling or anything? an educational thing where people can bring the kids and see all kinds of live reptiles and hold some things? balloons and hot dogs and stuff. at maybe a park, where people can have picnics and see presentations? a family outing type of deal? if you get the kids out for a fun time, the parents have to come. i don't know, just something i'd want to do in your shoes. face painting, sell cool t-shirts with a message. expose people to the hobby. might help.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Aha Habu*

Good point!

Yes these things do occur, but the great nation of animal keepers like a good bargain, no animals no interest, no sales, no interest.

But a lot of excellent reptile shops do offer this kind of workshop.

But a reptile fair with no animals for sale?

But a reptile fair with no animals for sale?

Not sure

R


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Good point!
> 
> Yes these things do occur, but the great nation of animal keepers like a good bargain, no animals no interest, no sales, no interest.
> 
> ...


it's called public relations.....


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I think you can talk about it within the reptile world till your blue in the face and you still wont get anywhere. The fact is most reptile keepers dont use the internet and most dont go to reptile breeders meets and most dont join the societies. The only way to get them is at the point of sale. But how many shops would feel happy telling potential customers that the days of the hobby they are getting into and are about to spend alot of money on are numbered? I have mentioned before and still feel that the only way we are going to get noticed is if we can convince the dog and cat owners that they are next. It wouldn't take much to set up a stall in your local town with some flyers and leaflets containing some hard facts about the anti's and their idea to ban pet keeping full stop. I think websites etc are one thing but you cant beat getting out there in the public eye. The reptile community on the internet is small in my opinion every forum you go on the majority of regular posters are on all the forums.


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

I think that there is only a limit of things you can do on the internet.. 

I'm not sure the best way about talking to the majority of reptile keepers who don't talk about the hobby online, and people who don't go to shows or aren't joined to societies.. 

But i think something we definately need to do is get talk between ALL major and minor reptile forums, websites, societies, shops.. Talking.. One way or another, about the threat. They do need to wake up. The reason the 'Anti's do well in what they're doing is because they're joined in one way or another because they have one goal in mind.. We should have that same one goal in mind.

Or am i talking rubbish? :S


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

have to say i agree with you there andy, and said so at the meeting..

of 100% of reptile keepers, i reckon maybe a mere 15% use the web in any form.

the one place the keeper almost has to go, even if only occasionally, is the local reptile or pet shop... i think thats a far better way to target, than use the forums all the time

i can make a post, or rory can, or whoever can, an i can pretty much predict who will answer, what they will say.. with a few exceptions sure, but generally you know who will reply (option A) and who will just think.. 

"ach, another long thread full of doom and gloom, can't be arsed with that, i'll go and look at pretty pictures instead.." (option B)

lets face it, most of forum members are option B aren't they!! the "let someone else worry about it" brigade.. i should know, i used to be one of them!

so, maybe the forums, although useful, are not really that productive.. is that were the message fails.. deliverance to the wrong audience maybe?

but yes, i think trade and retail are the way to go, afterall, with no hobby, they have no business, they DO have a vested interest in keeping it afloat.

the people who make money from the hobby are more likely, i am afraid, to be proactive about saving it, than most of the people who say they "love their reptiles" on here..but do nothing proactive about defending the hobby under fire.

N


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

No your right the only goal is to protect our right to keep pets. Not just reptiles, dogs, monkeys,whatever. The only way you are going to get any national support is if people truly believe that their basic right to keep a pet is being threatened. I think the hunting with dogs ban, other than the huge political support, was succesful because the majority of the veryday joe public didnt care if a load of posh country folk couldnt go about chasing foxes. If people really thought that they would have to give up Tiddles or Fido you would get alot more support. But I cant imagine thats an easy task!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

still, you all should try to get all the positive press you can. heck! we have annual dog parades and wiener dog races. (us tacky americans:lol2


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Behind you all the way..*

.........indeed, Nerys is as Andy is correct.

15% of the market use the internet and 5% use the forums.

So why do we look at the forums?

Simple, because they are supposed to filled with people who care about their animals.

No they are not, of 100% of active keepers on this forum we have what perhaps 50 in a given week respond?

But the forums are a launching pad fpr concepts and awakenings - simple - but they are not pro active when pretty pictures and shows, and who bought what rues the day.

Retail = shop front - this is the way forwards - grab the keeper by the rounds and sell them the sizzle.

R


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

Nerys said:


> have to say i agree with you there andy, and said so at the meeting..


Crikey!:lol2:

The whole pet industry must be worth billions. If someone could compile and present the big brands with good evidence of what is happening/likely to happen and convince them of the risk to pet keeping then I am sure they would get involved even if its only financially. But unless you can provide cold hard facts to them that can be proven then you will not get anywhere. Another idea is make short videos in response to PeTA etc showing their wild accusations to be false and posting them on Youtube.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

HABU said:


> have you all ever had like a reptile fair and invite the public on a weekend to see reptiles free of charge and with no selling or anything? an educational thing where people can bring the kids and see all kinds of live reptiles and hold some things? balloons and hot dogs and stuff. at maybe a park, where people can have picnics and see presentations? a family outing type of deal? if you get the kids out for a fun time, the parents have to come. i don't know, just something i'd want to do in your shoes. face painting, sell cool t-shirts with a message. expose people to the hobby. might help.


there was a very sucessful one In Exmouth in 2005, it went down very wll with the locals.
Not heard of any others though, although a few people with larger collections do do talks at schools which is the best place to start with the education


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

Has anyone tried using newspapers to get their word across? 

I mean... It's not to do with animals.. But our local news paper will be printing an article (likely to be on the front page for the second time in 2 years) about my brothers disability, about the charity who have done so much for him, and about the money my family have gained for the charity.. 

why not try to get all the local papers and other news papers to 

A- Have an (not long winded, as alot of the public don't like reading long winded things, but straight to the point about reptiles) article about reptiles. 

B- (might be out of season.. But school fetes, fairs in the country(such as the ones they hold over the park a few times a year)) Why not have a stall with a few of the most kept reptiles to show people that reptiles aren't harmful.

Obviously such a thing would need to have the reptiles welfare in mind. But it would surely educate some people..

And all the while you can have posters about supporting the hobby? 

I don't know..


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

As i heard at the meeting yesterday. There are alot of well known public figures who do keep reptiles, but because of the bad publicity and the problems involved in reptiles, t hey don't want it public knowledge, and don't want to be a face associated with reptiles


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

I havent offered any alternatives up because i cant think of any, i dont know of a way of getting people to listen. But it doesnt mean that an aggressive approach is the best way to get my thoughts across. Im not going to go out and start a jihad because my opinions are supressed, it just doesnt work, it never has done as far as im aware.

All i can see is this approach just alienating more people from the cause, the only way to hit back at these people is through their pockets. Money is the only thing thats going to change things imo, and i dont know how to get at them in this way.

There are people in this world who feel that the only way they can get heard is by killing people in some cases killing themselves in the process - if its not working on these extreme levels why do people think its going to work on a small scale?

Id be happy as a pig in poop to be proven wrong though but im still not going to have my name along side those who take this sort of action.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

think if every kid in the UK said "i want one!!" what if the number of keepers doubled? start with the youth, they are tomorrow's hobbyists. nothing wrong with a bigger base. promote the hobby as you are trying to fight the activists.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

wohic said:


> there was a very sucessful one In Exmouth in 2005, it went down very wll with the locals.
> Not heard of any others though, although a few people with larger collections do do talks at schools which is the best place to start with the education


That's right - Onissarle and I do, for example, and we've also done informal presentations to coworkers. If we had our own transport we'd be approaching MORE schools and offering our time and our knowledge and a chance for kids to see our animals.

In fact, one of the animals we took on our first school trip ... was Chumley, one of our two EPS animals.


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> .........indeed, Nerys is as Andy is correct.
> 
> 15% of the market use the internet and 5% use the forums.
> 
> ...


Unfortunatly its true that very few keepers use the net, and forums. This is the biggest forum in the UK, and probably one of the biggest in the world. But it only has just over 7500 members, which is alot for a forum, but it is a tiny percentage of the actual figure of those who keep reptiles. 

The shops are probably the best place to inform people, but as i said yesterday at the meeting, very few will want to stand up and directly go against the RSPCA, because that then brings them to the attention of the anti's. 

It seems that we only go round and round in circles, but we are well ware of this, and try not to, but we always end up doing it. 

The biggest thing that strikes me, as i said yesterday, the anti's are very clever at coming accross as animal lovers, and only wanting to help animals, from this they gain alot of support and MONEY. Why dont we do the same? Set up a website that primarily comes accross as being animal welfare concered, with a donation link in there for money. And then put info in there about legislation. If this was worded correctly, im sure it could be very helpfull for us keepers??


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

HABU said:


> think if every kid in the UK said "i want one!!" what if the number of keepers doubled? start with the youth, they are tomorrow's hobbyists. nothing wrong with a bigger base. promote the hobby as you are trying to fight the activists.


I said this yesterday, we need to start teaching the potential politicians, animal rights activist, and animal keepers now, so that they grow up to be on our side.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

Snakes r grreat said:


> Why dont we do the same? Set up a website that primarily comes accross as being animal welfare concered, with a donation link in there for money. And then put info in there about legislation. If this was worded correctly, im sure it could be very helpfull for us keepers??


I think thats a good idea but the focus shouldn't be on reptiles or all you are going to get is the same faces who join every other reptile forum/website etc. If it focused more on the everyday pets and the threats they are facing from the animal rights movement then it would get alot more support. I would suggest a more user friendly title too something the anti's got the hang of decades ago.


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

It is an interesting debate, how many traders recieved an invite to the meeting, you can only say its apathy if everyone knew but chose not to attend, having asked a few traders no one i have spoken to knew anything about it, however i personally would like to see the hobby working together more and i think all parties have been guilty of negative posts, not just people having a go at the fbh, some bridge building has taken place, but alot more has to happen for it to succeed, I have always believed forums only represent a tiny partof the the hobby and not neccessarily a good part, certainly if it is to succeed then traders need to participate not by scare mongering but by chatting to customers making them aware and gaining support..For me this is the grass roots of the hobby, and the group which has never been touched.


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

There were a couple threads on here (this is generally the only reptile forum i go on so not sure if it was posted anywhere else) but Yeah, there was a thread inviting people.


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

Snakes r grreat said:


> The biggest thing that strikes me, as i said yesterday, the anti's are very clever at coming accross as animal lovers, and only wanting to help animals, from this they gain alot of support and MONEY. Why dont we do the same? Set up a website that primarily comes accross as being animal welfare concered, with a donation link in there for money. And then put info in there about legislation. If this was worded correctly, im sure it could be very helpfull for us keepers??





Andy said:


> I think thats a good idea but the focus shouldn't be on reptiles or all you are going to get is the same faces who join every other reptile forum/website etc. If it focused more on the everyday pets and the threats they are facing from the animal rights movement then it would get alot more support. I would suggest a more user friendly title too something the anti's got the hang of decades ago.


Thats what i mean Andy, a site that comes across as all for the animals, all animals, something to lure the joe public animal lovers into and then get them on side.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> I havent offered any alternatives up because i cant think of any, i dont know of a way of getting people to listen. But it doesnt mean that an aggressive approach is the best way to get my thoughts across. Im not going to go out and start a jihad because my opinions are supressed, it just doesnt work, it never has done as far as im aware.
> 
> quote]
> 
> ...


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

> Thats what i mean Andy, a site that comes across as all for the animals, all animals, something to lure the joe public animal lovers into and then get them on side.


Thats what the aniti's are doing. Playing on the general pet keepers sentiments for dogs and cats to gain support and money and then trying to shut down each sector of the pet keeping world i.e. primates,reptiles etc then are now openly stating they want a ban on all pets. Another thing I think is important is that whoever is involved in any such website/society has to be squeaky clean or they will get ripped to pieces by the anti. (not saying that anyone involved in PKL is not squeaky clean by the way!)


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

Andy said:


> Thats what the aniti's are doing. Playing on the general pet keepers sentiments for dogs and cats to gain support and money and then trying to shut down each sector of the pet keeping world i.e. primates,reptiles etc then are now openly stating they want a ban on all pets. Another thing I think is important is that whoever is involved in any such website/society has to be squeaky clean or they will get ripped to pieces by the anti. (not saying that anyone involved in PKL is not squeaky clean by the way!)


Yes, exactly, we need to play them at their own game. Amoungst other things.


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Natrix said:


> WeThePeople said:
> 
> 
> > I havent offered any alternatives up because i cant think of any, i dont know of a way of getting people to listen. But it doesnt mean that an aggressive approach is the best way to get my thoughts across. Im not going to go out and start a jihad because my opinions are supressed, it just doesnt work, it never has done as far as im aware.
> ...


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*So its okay*

To join the antis then?

If we can play them at their own game?

No?

R


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I dont see what you are actually asking there Rory.


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

Andy said:


> I dont see what you are actually asking there Rory.


Me neither, please explain Rory.


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## quizicalkat (Jul 7, 2007)

O K

I have had enough!

The way you post is NOT the way to persuade people to your cause - not in this country anyway. Everytime I read one of your posts I feel insulted and angry and I grew up in an American culture!

Therefore I am now blocking you.

No more:censor::censor::censor::blowup:


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

I think you're going to have to elaborate on that quizicalkat


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Animal Rights & the Future of the Pet Industry 2006


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

:banghead:










N


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

So anyone who disagrees with you is burying their head in the sand?


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

no, i think she means, anyone ignoring the threat that is there, but still nods and smiles as if nothing is happening... are the people with heads in the sand


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Simple question for you, WeThePeople:

Do you yourself personally have ANY animals? Is there any way you MIGHT be affected by the changes in legislation - AWA, EPS, CITES - there's a whole alphabet soup out there that can bite you in the tail.

What exactly do you think should be done? 

I personally have tried polite letters to the "people in charge"... and they have done nothing.
I have heard of more NOTICE being taken of our plight since doing the flyers and the articles than I have heard of in the last fourteen months.


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Simple question for you, WeThePeople:
> 
> Do you yourself personally have ANY animals? Is there any way you MIGHT be affected by the changes in legislation - AWA, EPS, CITES - there's a whole alphabet soup out there that can bite you in the tail.
> 
> ...


I have animals protected by CITES but it doesnt mean im going to turn into an urban terrorist to protect me being able to keep them.

As i said above i dont know what to do, but what i am saying is that agressive behaviour isnt the way to go about things. It doesnt work for anyone else, in most cases it makes matters worse for them so i dont see how it will work here.

IMO doing nothing is a lot better than making things worse.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

possibly taking your critters away is all that matters. all this stuff about it on all these threads is my nightmare.it's got me worried about over here. from now on, i'm keeping track of things over here. no problem here....yet. but you guys got me a little paranoid!


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> I have animals protected by CITES but it doesnt mean im going to turn into an *urban terrorist to protect* me being able to keep them.
> 
> As i said above i dont know what to do, but what i am saying is that agressive behaviour isnt the way to go about things. It doesnt work for anyone else, in most cases it makes matters worse for them so i dont see how it will work here.
> 
> IMO doing nothing is a lot better than making things worse.


I dont rememeber Rory asking anyone to grab a gun and head off to Westminster, or maybe i missed the boat?

Rory is trying to put the issue out there to get peoples attention. Do you think he would have got as much reaction or notice if he had quietly put a few threads up about the issue? 

At this stage any reaction must be better than none, at least it makes people think about whats going on, whether they agree or disagree with the style Rory uses.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

WeThePeople said:


> I have animals protected by CITES but it doesnt mean im going to turn into an urban terrorist to protect me being able to keep them.


And when did Rory and the PKL EVER suggest that they would use violence? "Urban Terrorist" is an awfully strong term for a group that is creating flyers, informational articles and providing e-mail addresses and questions to ask with regards to current legislation....



> As i said above i dont know what to do, but what i am saying is that agressive behaviour isnt the way to go about things. It doesnt work for anyone else, in most cases it makes matters worse for them so i dont see how it will work here.


As I said, who advocated violence? There is a WORLD of difference between in-your-face flyers and in-your-face guns.



> IMO doing nothing is a lot better than making things worse.


I'll be sure to whisper that to Chumley and Tananda as they go to the long sleep at the vet's. I'm sure it will be a comfort to them.

For them... it doesn't GET "made worse" - it IS as bad as it can get.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

doing nothing.. is EXACTLY what got us where we are now...

too many people are far to safe and secure in their own little worlds.. shut the front door and you're away from it all.. why bother to think of something to do, someone else will always do it for you..

the lack of enthusiasm and motivation has always puzzled me a little...

tell people there is a free snake on offer and they move mountains to sort it it... tell them their right to keep it may be taken away, and they would rather do nothing but poke holes at those who are, at least, and in whatever mannor, making an effort.

rory spends 30+ hours a week on politics and trying to fight this fight, at times, as his partner, i wish he didn't. Its not done for money or ego, tbh i am not sure why he does it at all sometimes. He makes himself ill doing it and ends up not sleeping for nights at a time. how can one person put that much in, when others contribute nothing but critisicsm, and not even constructively at that ??

the people who do not know there is a fight to be fought, you can forgive for being ignorant, but those who are aware, and STILL don't bother to even _read_ half the stuff on here, let alone do something about it..those people.. well... nuff said maybe.

sure that might offend some people, but you know what? the only people it will really offend are the people i am describing.. the people who ARE doing something, will not be offended.. so if you read this and are offended by it.. why.. is it because i am describing you - even if you try to deny it.. just ask yourself this evening.. "what did i do this week to defend my hobby??"

yes, we have a hard stance, but... considering what we are up against.. we may well just need it.

Nerys


WTP - accusing us of being Urban Terrorists is not on. personally i would like an apology for that.. how DARE you label us with the same words used for the sort of people who commited the 911 crime.


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

to be honest, i haven't do alot other than debate on here. Due to me not knowing what i could do..
It's such a vast subject that im only just starting to learn. But i am trying to learn, along with university and work.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

but thats just it Trice.. you ARE making an effort, you ARE doing something

good on you, shame there are not more like you !

if people had been proactive 15 months back, then maybe the EPS would not have come in as it has... 

far too many things, we have left it too late or nearly too late.. now is not the time for wringing our hands and whimpering. now is the time to actually do something about it

so yes. heads in sands. far too many heads in sand pits up and down the uk.. one can but hope the cat got there first perchance... 

N


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

If its making him ill maybe he should get a new hobby, its only going to get worse if your going to take it further and if he is struggling now then i dread to think what its going to be like further down the line. Ive got respect for someone who fights for what they believe, even at the expense of their own health.

Im going to stay out of this now as i cant see myself getting anywhere talking to you, I dont want to try and change peoples minds, opinions or the way they conduct themselves so its pointless me entering a discussion if there's nothing here for me, not only that i cant even put a constructive arguement together :no1:


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

I think everyone is trying to do everything at the same time!

I think in my opinion. People need to unite.. internet, and off the internet.. To split the support in a number of different ways.

not everyone tackle the same problem!


but thanks lol


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Hang on........*

Hey everybody listen up.

First, 

we are all passionate keepers, irrelevant to which species you may keep.

Second, 

l agree we are not urban terrorists. And that does bite me as well tbh.

Third, 

l have never denied that l will not offend some people, societies, regulative bodies nor the opposition can verify -if of course they chose to - that l have never said that l have not said l would upset them. Albeit, l dont think that is possible.

Fourth, 

this is a passionate debate - however whether WTP or Q/Kat agrees is their preogative, PKL is not about corecion - it is about about how people feel and we can see that. But it is about unification, about bringing keepers together - full stop.

Fifth, 

WTP it is up to you alone what movements and actions you take, it is up to you to make a decision about how you wish to travel forwards.

Sixth, 

Q/K - not that makes any difference now, l think you can not see my posts - is that right? - but if you as an American are upset about UK politics - then as Habu has pointed out be concerned about American Politics - there is absolutely no guarantee that it will not happen there either. You live in the UK and this upsets you, then do something pro active about it instead. Sure, you may not like what l post, but to be honest l have more respect for Habu and his honesty and his responses that l do for your 'bollks' to it all. However again this is your opinion and you are entitled to it and l must respect that.

Finally, this situation is not getting easier, it will get harder but however those that oppose PKL choose to react to it - do something that you alone feel comfortable with.

thanks for reading and contributing,

Rory

PKL


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Couple of points.

Its a shame I missed the meet, I did look outside to the rear via the window, door was taped up, but only saw the odd person at the benches, and checked to the front, sat and had a coffee there for 15 mins in case. still thats life I guess !

As for the PKL, my own thoughts are that everyone is good at something, some are good at 'making' people listen to points of view, making sure the discussion is not one sided. 

Some are good at promoting the hobby, to the general public with out standing in front of big guns !

I do feel the PKL has a place, the hobby needs not only some representation to the powers that be, but also a voice to be able to contridict the false lies made by antis. The hobby also needs the public on side, a public who , although maybe dont keep reptiles, have seen them, have talked about them, have handled them.

The hobby therefore needs those who quitely go about promoting good husbandry, great welfare, a regard for the law, however stupid it may be right now.

At ESRAS we DO put on around 8 public displays each year, nothing for sale, just a 'come meet the critters' event.

I reckon, and its guess work, around 5000 members of the public visit our displays each year, not a huge number, but a chunk all the same. Some have walked away, only to become members and keepers, some have gone home thinking that maybe reptiles are not as scary and smelly or wet or slimey as they thought, others still have gone away disliking them, cant please everyone, but each and every one has the chance to talk to us.

Just because PKL aim to be vocal and forcefull with the message, it does not mean the message is wrong. If you find you cant support them directly, then go the other route, join a society, press them to get involved.

I have my committee meeting on wed night, looks like I have some non belivers in the camp, so will be interesting to see how it goes !!


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I am actually highly offended also at being classed as an "urabn terrorist" because of my personal onvolvement with PKL 

I know maybe it was a misplaced choice of words but all the same, I am a responsible mum of 3 and a housewife - I am not a terrorist, bully or anything else that could be classed as a forcible person in any way. I do have my own views, opinions and thoughts on the way things are going regarding animal keping right now and although I know a lot of it won't affect me directly, it breaks my heart to know that many keepers, a lot of them friends of mine, will have ot stand and see thier animals murdered because of a piece of legislation.

For that reason alone, I will stand and be counted in every and any wya I can be it writing letter, researching, typing, ringing, informing - surely that will help some way and is a much more sustainable expansion of my time than sitting wondering if the changes will effect me and my animals.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Would it help if l................*

...................explained my definition of aggressive campaigning?

I think this is where it may have stemmed from yesterday.

Aggressive campaigning is different to me bopping someone on the nose!

Or blowing off their head with a shotgun or fire bombing their house or car.

Or digging up their relatives.

The use of graphic images within campaign is targetted at attracting attention.

The pen is only mightier than the sword when you are able to 1] deliver a powerful message and 2] when you have an audience to read the literature.

Aggressive campaigning or lobbying is what Pro Keepers Lobby is about. 

But the serious side to our campaigning is endeavouring to get our message across but not in a sit back and simply write to 'blah, blah' etc. This only works in a strength when more than one campaigner is writing at the same time.

Uniting people with a purpose and bombarding them with the same message, might be considered aggressive by some.

But this is aggressive campaigning to those whom are not used to 1] seeing it from the pro keeping side and 2] to those who are not used to being co-ordinated in the first place and with no direction, it just turns into a mish mash.

And yes whilst we will use obtrusive images and wordings - so what?

When it comes down to the serious side of the campaigning, we will l assure you be very direct and non 'cartoony' for want odf a better description. If we want to appeal to the landbased arena with its many demographic segments we must play it very careful.

Wake Up Call - was to the keepers - WAKE UP, time is short and there is insufficient time to laze around, your hobby is in jeopardy.

Does this help?

Rory Matier
PKL


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