# Gecko Sizes (Giant/Norm)



## Joner (Aug 19, 2008)

Right guys Giant is a co-dominant trait. The het version equals Giant the homozygous equals Super giant. Thats my Understanding.

My question is sizes and ranges. My first question is What is the range for Norm, Giant and Super giant?

Ive got so much information from different sites/books ome of it doesnt equal out.

Sexual maturity is 27+g's for males 35+g's for females.

breeding size is 45-50g's.

Mature adult size
Norm 50g-100g
Giant 90g-125g
Super Giant 120-150g

This is just information ive sponged from places. My second question is what happens to classification when your gecko falls into one of the grey areas/overlaps?

My oldest Gecko Big Phil 15+years weighs in during the summer at about 102g so that would make him a giant however im not convinced. I think its more todo with growth levels and that Phil is just at the top after 15 years of growing. I presume f you had a Giant and a norm the giant would grow at a faster rate. So my third question is does anyone know of any studies done on growth rates of Norm and Giant leopard geckos?


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

Joner said:


> Right guys Giant is a co-dominant trait. The het version equals Giant the homozygous equals Super giant. Thats my Understanding.
> 
> My question is sizes and ranges. My first question is What is the range for Norm, Giant and Super giant?
> 
> ...


 
looks like you got the weight levels spot on , and to be classed as a giant/supergiant the gecko needs to reach that weight by 1 year of age, and be able to pass its size to its offspring,
i think you need to get your animals from trusted breeders that are well known for breeding giants, steve sykes and ron tremper could be trusted to sell true giants, but less informed breeders label big animals as giants that don't breed true, a super giant weighing in at 140+ should produce 100% giant babies no matter what he is bred to, seeing as its a co-dom morph, but lots of "giants" don't breed true
i have a male that is 143g, he's 9-10 years old and has always been big, he's also proven to be het bell this season but none of his babies hatch out any bigger than normals so i know he's not a super giant
i think ron and steve have both documented growth rates of moose and godzilla, but neither are on the respective websites any more, geckoforums.net may give you the results you're looking for


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

Now heres a can of worms!! lol

Some very good, clear info there from boywonder :notworthy:

I have had several male leos reach over 100g and I have never called them Giants. As far as I know, they have not come from giant lines and they are just nice big chunky males.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

A far amount of breeders are questioning wheather Giants are Codominant. Based on some of there breeding results and the leo they have that are giant size but didn't come from Tremper stock. Here' a link to people findings, Opinios'etc.

There's 30 pages though.
The Giant Debate??? - GeckoForums.net

There's only 6 here.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64052&highlight=giant+tremper+subspecies
 

Personally i think Giant is a case of breeding big to big, = Some big offspring, Then breed them big to big again and you get a bit bigger.
The bigger the female gets, The bit bigger eggs she has resulting in bigger offspring with every generation. 
IMO Giant is a Polygenic(Line bred) trait.

Think of it in the opposite way that natural dwarf reptile come to be.
As the female gets smaller, Due to the resticted food sources.
So do the eggs or young she has, And as a result smaller reptile are produced. 
For example Dwarf BCI,Dwarf retics.

Also think on the lines of Giant tiger snakes(Chapel Island tiger snake). Only the biggist offspring get the good start in life. They have to get to a set size in a set time. So they can feed on the young Mutton bird chicks, Before they get to big. To get them self through the winter they have to eat as meny eggs and young chicks before the chicks get to big for them to eat. As a result of this life style Chapel Island tiger snake have evoled into Giants. Now think how often we give are leo's food and how much. As a result female leo's are bigger than there wild relitives. And bigger the females bigger the eggs, Resulting in possible bigger offspring.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

gazz said:


> A far amount of breeders are questioning wheather Giants are Codominant.
> Personally i think Giant is a case of breeding big to big, = Some big offspring, Then breed them big to big again and you get a bit bigger.
> The bigger the female gets, The bit bigger eggs she has resulting in bigger offspring with every generation.
> IMO Giant is a Polygenic(Line bred) trait.


I agree - I don't think that Giant acts as a co-dominant 'gene'. I think they are just larger than average leos which may (or may not) produce larger than average babies ....... :whistling2:

I don't see how an animal reaching a set weight at a set age can be 'classed' as a genetic something or other. It may well be that the animal has had a good start/owner/appetite !
If a human reached 6ft at 16 say, would that class them as 'genetic' something or other, and would that prove their offspring would be a certain percentage of the same ? Or is it just 'more likely' that they may produce larger children themselves ?


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## Joner (Aug 19, 2008)

Thanks for the responses. A few follow ons then.

Normal should hit around 50g in one year growing upto 100g
Giant should hit about 80g in one year growing upto 125g
Super Giants should hit about 100g in one year growing upto 150g

The other thing I found interesting is the amount of weight male geckos put on when they introduced to females. This again is only from what ive observed. Big Phil seemed to get bigger especially around his neck and shoulders after a few pairings/introductions to my females. Has anyone else noticed this change males go through?


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

Joner said:


> Thanks for the responses. A few follow ons then.
> 
> Normal should hit around 50g in one year growing upto 100g
> Giant should hit about 80g in one year growing upto 125g
> ...


 
i've actually seen the complete opposite to that , my males all drop weight once they get a sniff of a female, they loose interest in food and only want to look for females or bite my fingers


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

Big Red One said:


> I agree - I don't think that Giant acts as a co-dominant 'gene'. I think they are just larger than average leos which may (or may not) produce larger than average babies ....... :whistling2:
> 
> I don't see how an animal reaching a set weight at a set age can be 'classed' as a genetic something or other. It may well be that the animal has had a good start/owner/appetite !
> If a human reached 6ft at 16 say, would that class them as 'genetic' something or other, and would that prove their offspring would be a certain percentage of the same ? Or is it just 'more likely' that they may produce larger children themselves ?


 
the two big us breeders that i mentioned are both absolutely convinced that the giant gene is real and that it acts in a co-dom way, maybe because the lines they began with have been bread for size for so long it has become like a fixed polygenic trait and that as you say, big parent x normal paret makes fairly big offspring, big parent x big parent makes big (or bigger) offspring,


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

boywonder said:


> the two big us breeders that i mentioned are both absolutely convinced that the giant gene is real and that it acts in a co-dom way, maybe because the lines they began with have been bread for size for so long it has become like a fixed polygenic trait and that as you say, *big parent x normal paret makes fairly big offspring, big parent x big parent makes big (or bigger) offspring*


The above is my personal belief. I haven't seen enough evidence to suggest a single mutant gene being the cause. IMO length and weight are too arbitrary a measurement, especially when "non Giant" can get to the same size and weight.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

boywonder said:


> the two big us breeders that i mentioned are both absolutely convinced that the giant gene is real and that it acts in a co-dom way, maybe because the lines they began with have been bread for size for so long it has become like a fixed polygenic trait and that as you say, big parent x normal paret makes fairly big offspring, big parent x big parent makes big (or bigger) offspring,


Yeah - I know what you mean about their beliefs and findings matey, but it's this 'cutoff point' that I struggle to get my head round with it. 
If you look at Carrot Tail as an example, everyone seems to agree that it is a line bred trait, accepting that a 15 percent (? again why 15) Carrot Tail qualifies it as such. Breeders have line bred their best examples though, to 'hopefully' produce some better examples. Some offspring show better Carrot Tail, some don't. I don't see the difference with 100g at 12 months etc 'coming through' in some offspring and not others, then the bigger leos passing this down in the same way as Carrot Tail 'coming through'. It just doesn't fit a Co-Dom scenario in my opinion. With Co-Dom traits you can see a definitive yes/no (Normal/Mack Snow/Supersnow outcomes for example) , it either is or it isn't one or the other. Giant/Supergiant doesn't do this IMO. 
My male Bell Sunglow hovers around 100g but is in no way fat, also he's very long. Last year he produced larger than average babies, yet he can't be classed as 'Giant' as he's not from a proven 'Giant' strain. I find that weird too, as at some point in the past one of the big breeders had a leo that did reach that size, and decided it was genetically Giant ??? hmm..........




MrMike said:


> The above is my personal belief. I haven't seen enough evidence to suggest a single mutant gene being the cause. IMO length and weight are too arbitrary a measurement, especially when "non Giant" can get to the same size and weight.


Exactly Mike -agree 100 percent.


Now of course we are seeing so many adverts for 'Giant/poss Supergiant' leos at a few months old, so I would love to know how these are known ?


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Big Red One said:


> Now of course we are seeing so many adverts for 'Giant/poss Supergiant' leos at a few months old, so I would love to know how these are known ?


Well, if the "rules" are correct, the a Giant/poss Supergiant can only come from a homozygous Giant x Heterozygous Giant.

If poeple are selling Giant/poss Super Giant from Heterozygous Giant x heterozygous Giant then (as you say) how do you know the hatchling/Juvie is a Giant when you need to wait a year for the weight and there is technically a 25% chance it is not carrying the Giant gene.....


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

Big Red One said:


> Now of course we are seeing so many adverts for 'Giant/poss Supergiant' leos at a few months old, so I would love to know how these are known ?


 
all i can say to that is buy a leo because you LIKE THE LOOK OF IT not because it's advertised as a giant or supergiant, i can't see how people claim to have gians for sale at a couple of months age, i bred my "big" male with a snow radar this season to add some vigor to the line (and found that he is het bell, which is very surprising because he's around 9 years old ) i got a couple of normals that were average size and one snowbell that is currently 25g at 6 weeks old, her sister egg, a normal, is 13g and hatched a day earlier, but i couldn't claim that she is a giant or liberty bell/monster bell or whatever they call big bells these days


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## yoyocrazy (Feb 18, 2011)

*please help//*

im trying to decide on which gecko to get
1st is a super giant female bandit albino 6months old and she is 84 grams also she is 50 percent het tpa
2nd is a male and is also a bandit albino he is 8 months old and is 104 grams both of these are moses grandson or grandaughter ijust wana who how big both would probaly be and male or female / which gets bigger 
just reply or private message me please and thanks:notworthy:


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## tonkaz0 (Apr 25, 2008)

Have you got a link for these albino bandits please? Their not on Trempers site are they?!.


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## yoyocrazy (Feb 18, 2011)

*ummm*

yes they are on rons site why you gonna get one


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## tonkaz0 (Apr 25, 2008)

yoyocrazy said:


> yes they are on rons site why you gonna get one


 
*I think your getting confused with Banded and Bandit! :lol2:*


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