# Investigation of Europe’s largest reptile fair



## Chris Newman

Investigation of Europe’s largest reptile fair
March 2008

Wildlife dealers from all over Europe gathered to sell mostly wild-caught reptiles at the Terraristika reptile fair in Hamm, Germany on the 15 March 2008.

http://www.iar.org.uk/news/2008/mar08-5.shtml


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu

To be honest, I can't say they're lying about some of the conditions they are kept in, cramped into tubs etc.


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## captaincaveman

i see clifford warrick had his two penneth to say again


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## cornmorphs

not good news


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## Athravan

Its just your standard propoganda, we've all seen it before. Incorrect information (UK shows are still going ahead!) the same person (Clifford) can be relied upon to give corroborating information because he has some letters after his name, vague information with no statistics "mostly wild caught" (did they check the origins of every animal to come up with the fact that they consider WC to be a majority?)

It's the same stuff year in year out, not a story, not a report, not any sort of facts or evidence, just a snippet of propoganda.


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## cornmorphs

to be fair there really wouldnt have been much on the wild caugh side of things


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## stuartdouglas

They must've worked fast if they covered all 11 000 sq.m of the show and noted the origin of every animal on display and calculated that "most" i.e greater than 50% were WC. It's great how "experts" can pluck figures out of thin air and make them sound researched and official. t0ss3r5:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## captaincaveman

where are all the wc morphs hiding? c ause thats somewhere i'd like to go snake hunting, go get me some wc blue eyed leuy royals:lol2:


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## cornmorphs

captaincaveman said:


> where are all the wc morphs hiding? c ause thats somewhere i'd like to go snake hunting, go get me some wc blue eyed leuy royals:lol2:


yeah i saw all of thoose


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## captaincaveman

how much of hamm is morphs? how can they come to those figures:lol2:


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## iiisecondcreep

Most reptiles arrive in the UK via Germany?

:\




> So poor is the animal welfare at pet fairs such as Hamm, that the UK Government, in its wisdom, has banned these events.


um... it has? :\


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## Athravan

iiisecondcreep said:


> Most reptiles arrive in the UK via Germany?
> 
> :\
> 
> 
> 
> 
> um... it has? :\


 
Most reptiles arrive from wholesalers in Africa/Indonesia actually, and then the next majorty is probably CB in the UK. After that I would say that the states provides more than germany does


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## iiisecondcreep

Athravan said:


> Most reptiles arrive from wholesalers in Africa/Indonesia actually, and then the next majorty is probably CB in the UK. After that I would say that the states provides more than germany does



so "most" reptiles in the uk are imports from Africa/Indonesia?
That i did not know 
I thought most would be CB... i figured- one imported pair = loads of CB(uk) babies. 


I like how they started the article stating that the sellers were "wildlife dealers".


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## BecciBoo

What we should do is...everyone on the forum that bought animals at Hamm should:

take a photo of your healthy CB reptile
put a little report/bit of information about them/how well they are doing
write a bit of what people are saying here...i.e. Morphs from the wild? How can the have checked the origin of every animal etc
email/send it to them
After all...if we all do it then we might make a point! Maybe :crazy:


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## BecciBoo

*Contact information
*

Laurence Eve Van Atten, Development Coordinator
International Animal Rescue, US
PO Box 137, Shrewsbury, MA 01545

Email: [email protected] Phone: (508) 826-1083


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## gtm

Athravan said:


> Its just your standard propoganda, we've all seen it before. Incorrect information (UK shows are still going ahead!) the same person (Clifford) can be relied upon to give corroborating information because he has some letters after his name, vague information with no statistics "mostly wild caught" (did they check the origins of every animal to come up with the fact that they consider WC to be a majority?)
> 
> It's the same stuff year in year out, not a story, not a report, not any sort of facts or evidence, just a snippet of propoganda.


I agree - they can produce no evidence whatsoever to back up their dramatic claims. I bet we never see a full report. In the tortoise neck of the woods we seen something familiar from an outfit called the Tortoise Protection Group. I've read bits of their report but cannot bring myself to join their Yahoo group and so cannot access the whole of it. 

2 other points

1) What are the professional credentials of the good Dr Clifford? I note he is'nt a Veterinary Surgeon nor does he hold himself out as a Herpetologist or Zoologist. He has an impressive set of letters after his name. I wonder what they mean?

2) The over heated hall point - They're reptiles for Gods sake:mf_dribble:. They're meant to be kept warm. I would be more concerned if the halls were underheated. What we find uncomfortably warm is actually pretty cosy for the average reptile.


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## Nerys

sorry all

but i have to agree with some of the issues raised..

yes, there are quite a few wild caught animals at the events, if houten was anything to go by, i personally recognised a few of the table holders, who i KNOW deal mainly in WC stock..

secondly, the conditions the animals are kept or displayed in... whilst there are some who make the effort to have decent display housing... again, there are many that do not...

i personally do not think that the table holders help the hobby, by having so many reptiles packed into small display tubs, lined along tables..

and yeah, that may make me unpopular, but whats new lol.. 

i personally think that the way reptiles are shown displayed and sold at reptile shows DOES need looking at.. i have said it before, and no doubt i will say it again, but, for instance, no i don't think it is fair on an adult leopard gecko, to spend all day in a cricket box with no access to hides/food or water.. especially not when it is then sat with 200 others stacked next to, above, and below. i do NOT think this portrays our hobby in a good light at all..

and having been a table holder at uk shows, i can understand why they are displayed as they are.. if you give a reptile a choice, it WILL hide away from view, and you WON'T make as many sales...

but does that not say something in itself?? that the reptile would rather hide away?? Mmmmmm

people display them as they do, because they make more money from doing so. not becasue the animals are comfier that way. whilst its all well and good to say.. ah well it doesn't do them any harm for a day... that still surely does not make it acceptable?

however, the comments about clifford (on this thread) i do agree with..

as do i the comments about the morphs, although again i would point out that i saw plenty of wildcaught ropey manky animals at houten, and have no reason to suspect hamm was any better! not to mention the fact that yes, the german market is well known for imports, both legal and otherwise.

so... whilst i do not agree with a lot of the spin in that article.. sorry guys, but there is some i DO agree with.. 

Nerys


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## Young_Gun

When you had stalls at shows, how did you have your animals displayed Nerys?

It might not be perfect for the animals, but most peoples housin they are kept in 'usually' isn't either.

A lot of the animals for sale as hatchlings and they are kept in tubs that I know a lot of breeders house them in for a good while from hatching (corns in crix tubs etc etc).

I don't agree with the amount of WC being portrayed as massive either, I saw at most 5 - 6 sellers who I know regularly deal in CF/WC but at least one of them was truthful about it and told me that a royal I was buyin was CF when I asked, there weren't many animals there either that looked WC to me, couple of invert stalls but thats the norm with inverts.

As for the 'doctor' he needs his head rearranging


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## m4rky

gtm said:


> 1) What are the professional credentials of the good Dr Clifford? I note he is'nt a Veterinary Surgeon nor does he hold himself out as a Herpetologist or Zoologist. He has an impressive set of letters after his name. I wonder what they mean?


The xBiol letters are from the Institute of Biology. 

In the last year of my Biology degree course we got a letter from them saying if we pay £XX you get to put the letters SBiol (or similar) after your name, the letter went on to say that they were well recognised in the Science community...would look good on the CV....blah blah etc. etc. S being for Student.

I paid the money (about £50 I think) and got the privilege of being able to put the letters after my name. Woo-hoo.:lol2:

After Graduation you get the next letters, which was GBiol (Graduate Member of the Institute). But hang on a minute, you have to pay a bit more for the 'G'........Guess what.....I did.......:banghead:

So...in the 10 years or so since I got the letters, take a wild guess how many people commented on them.......yep, thats right....0. 

My subscription lapsed and I never renewed, though I did get a letter saying I may qualify for FBiol (Fellow) but that was bit more money....

Now, I'm not saying that it was a rip off, the institute runs seminars, sends out newsletters with some interesting articles in and if I had a more science based career then they may have come in quite handy, but it isn't exactly hard to get those letters.....

More meaningful to actually have the *qualifications* there e.g. if I was to use my full list it Would be 
M4rky BSc (Hons) MSc BTEC

Then, if I had kept up with the subscriptions
M4rky BSc (Hons) MSc BTEC FBiol

Impressive, but the BSc and MSc show that I actually got the degrees, not just paid for (or got given) the Biol letters.

It's probably just to make him look more impressive to the general public, as far as I can see no actual qualifications after his name!

I think I can make some of his letters out, bear with me.....
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/gene...rtant-warwick-attacks-hamm-5.html#post1559800


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## kaimarion

BecciBoo said:


> What we should do is...everyone on the forum that bought animals at Hamm should:
> 
> take a photo of your healthy CB reptile
> put a little report/bit of information about them/how well they are doing
> write a bit of what people are saying here...i.e. Morphs from the wild? How can the have checked the origin of every animal etc
> email/send it to them
> After all...if we all do it then we might make a point! Maybe :crazy:


I can for one tell you my young female BD that I got at the show is CB and is very healthy and active  .


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## Maureen Collinson

gtm said:


> I agree - they can produce no evidence whatsoever to back up their dramatic claims. I bet we never see a full report. In the tortoise neck of the woods we seen something familiar from an outfit called the Tortoise Protection Group. I've read bits of their report but cannot bring myself to join their Yahoo group and so cannot access the whole of it.
> 
> They don't need to provide proof. The onus is on us to prove the appositive, and if we can't then they stand to win .
> 
> 
> 2 other points
> 
> 1) What are the professional credentials of the good Dr Clifford? I note he is'nt a Veterinary Surgeon nor does he hold himself out as a Herpetologist or Zoologist. He has an impressive set of letters after his name. I wonder what they mean?
> 
> Again, we can all kick up over Clifford, but he has been accepted and supported by some of the most influential people in reptile care/medicine out there, including Professor Fredrick Frye, who hears and accepts and supports Clifford to the hilt. Professor Frye is mentor to almost all of the vets that we all rely on to look after our charges when they become sick, and those vets for the most, won't hear a bad word said against Professor Frye, who also said himself, that with all of his own knowledge he could not expect to keep a reptile alive for long, so the average keeper certainly could not be expected to.
> 
> 2) The over heated hall point - They're reptiles for Gods sake:mf_dribble:. They're meant to be kept warm. I would be more concerned if the halls were underheated. What we find uncomfortably warm is actually pretty cosy for the average reptile.


Maybe, maybe not. Anyone thought to test the air temps when the halls are at their most crowded? Unless you have, and have proof to show, you can't for sure say that the hall was not too hot for them. 

I did as it happens test the room temps at some shows here in the UK, and some were over the comfort zone for reptiles and at one IHS show, the temps were way above what would be considered as comfortable for many of the poor reptiles being displayed.

Do I start to sound like an 'anti' now, or a person that is concerned about animals welfare?

Maureen.


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## SiUK

na thats valid points you have made and there are definately aspects of the shows that need sorting out big time for the welfare of the animals and of how its percieved by people.

I still question the credibility of this man though, some of what he says does seem researched but other comments are completely ludicrous.


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## Moshpitviper

I totally agree with Mo up there. shows are pretty dire. you only have to look at the rows of chams at hamm that are jet black to understand the stress they endure..... i don't like it one bit, but what other options are available? at the last show i was trading at i provided adequate enclosures and hides/waterbowls for the animals i had for sale and it really wasnt that difficult, it took like 10 mins longer to set up than normal. I really dont see why others can't follow suit, ally and nerys both did exactly the same.

With the animal welfare act coming in last year, it is surely the organisers duty of care to the animals as much as it is the traders.... so lets all pull our fingers out and the antis will have bugger all to moan about.


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## Athravan

I think that most reptile keepers would agree that the conditions in which the animals are kept at shows are not perfect for all species. Although for most snakes, corn snakes for example - the hatchlings at shows are kept in exactly the same tubs I keep them in at home, the only difference is that there is no water bowl, which a corn snake can survive 8 hours without discomfort. The housing is temporary and should be looked at as temporary.

If anything, my problem is more with the buyers than the sellers. I don't like hearing of people driving 10-15 hours+ home without offering water or checking on the animals and being suprised when they end up dead at the other end. Stress+fluctuating temperatures+dehydration+12+ hours constantly travelling = danger, it's not rocket science. Decrease the stress, don't overcrowd, stabilise the temperatures by actually using a thermometer to check how many heat packs/ventilation holes are needed in advance, and provide water, pretty simple. 

All of the animals I buy are offered water in the evening, and the next morning... so twice on the return journey of about 14 hours, and checked 3 times for any problems. I check the temps on the way out using a digital thermometer and some heat packs so I can accurately gauge what will be needed, and I've never had an animal die yet. The thermometer can be checked at every rest stop (so at least every 2 hours) and the temps adjusted accordingly if it's changed too much.

If I was gestulating wildly with my own (no facts based) propoganda I would put forth that more animals die in transit than at the show itself.

The main issues with this piece of propoganda is that they are not really focusing on facts of discomfort, people are missing the point... in saying this is a piece of propoganda I am not saying I advocate the condition of shows... there is always room for improvement, but.. neither can it be said that animals are mostly WC and the UK is full of these WC German imports... they could have had an interesting and truthful article if they had focused on more facts and figures of the truth in their "investigation", instead they have a randomly speculative piece of fluff in which you can disregard pretty much everything... as they clearly didn't do any correct research or a proper "investigation" or they would have provided more correct information and actually hit home with the one truthful aspect they have.


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## gaz

are we forgetting that all shows are inspected by vets before they open? they dont seem to have any problem with things as they are
regards gaz


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## Maureen Collinson

Athravan said:


> I think that most reptile keepers would agree that the conditions in which the animals are kept at shows are not perfect for all species. Although for most snakes, corn snakes for example - the hatchlings at shows are kept in exactly the same tubs I keep them in at home, the only difference is that there is no water bowl, which a corn snake can survive 8 hours without discomfort. The housing is temporary and should be looked at as temporary.
> 
> Athravan,
> 
> Whilst I don't wish to appear to be being awkward here, I feel compelled to try to verify what you have said above. You say the housing is only temporary, but yet in another sentence you say you keep your corn snakes in these temporary boxes at home too, or at least thats the way you are coming across, and that's what others will read into it. As for hatchling corns going without water for 8 hours, well in some cases that would be okay, but on a very hot summer day, they could well dehydrate. Could you please state which type of boxes you are referring to here, because as it stands, some will assume you are referring to cricket type boxes.
> 
> If anything, my problem is more with the buyers than the sellers. I don't like hearing of people driving 10-15 hours+ home without offering water or checking on the animals and being suprised when they end up dead at the other end. Stress+fluctuating temperatures+dehydration+12+ hours constantly travelling = danger, it's not rocket science. Decrease the stress, don't overcrowd, stabilise the temperatures by actually using a thermometer to check how many heat packs/ventilation holes are needed in advance, and provide water, pretty simple.
> 
> 100% agree with the above comments. :no1:
> 
> All of the animals I buy are offered water in the evening, and the next morning... so twice on the return journey of about 14 hours, and checked 3 times for any problems. I check the temps on the way out using a digital thermometer and some heat packs so I can accurately gauge what will be needed, and I've never had an animal die yet. The thermometer can be checked at every rest stop (so at least every 2 hours) and the temps adjusted accordingly if it's changed too much.
> 
> Nice one. :no1:
> 
> If I was gestulating wildly with my own (no facts based) propoganda I would put forth that more animals die in transit than at the show itself.
> 
> I could go with that too. :bash:
> 
> The main issues with this piece of propoganda is that they are not really focusing on facts of discomfort, people are missing the point... in saying this is a piece of propoganda I am not saying I advocate the condition of shows... there is always room for improvement, but.. neither can it be said that animals are mostly WC and the UK is full of these WC German imports... they could have had an interesting and truthful article if they had focused on more facts and figures of the truth in their "investigation", instead they have a randomly speculative piece of fluff in which you can disregard pretty much everything... as they clearly didn't do any correct research or a proper "investigation" or they would have provided more correct information and actually hit home with the one truthful aspect they have.


Their report is out there and is being believed though. Whether or not all of it is true does not come into it at all unless we prove otherwise now, so no amount of debating on here will alter what they have posted out there, only pure evidence to the contrary, and who is going to provide that. Members on here can spent all day calling Clifford every thing under the sun, but it's him that has the statement out there where it will be taken notice of by thousands of people that will be horrified by the way animals are packed into salad type boxes, so is he really the stupid one, or is it us that chose to call Clifford everything under the sun, and then dismiss the report and him. Both will remain out there convincing more and more people of how bad the reptile hobby is at the end of the day. 

Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Those last few words there. 'at the end of the day'. Think about them. If reptiles are not given the care they justly deserve, then it could well be the end of the day, when reptiles as pets are banned.

The 'antis' never went away, they are working harder than ever, but we are too busy ignoring them to notice, and though this will not add to my popularity, I believe they have justification for many of the issues they are campaigning against us over.

Maureen.


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## Athravan

> Whilst I don't wish to appear to be being awkward here, I feel compelled to try to verify what you have said above. You say the housing is only temporary, but yet in another sentence you say you keep your corn snakes in these temporary boxes at home too, or at least thats the way you are coming across, and that's what others will read into it. As for hatchling corns going without water for 8 hours, well in some cases that would be okay, but on a very hot summer day, they could well dehydrate. Could you please state which type of boxes you are referring to here, because as it stands, some will assume you are referring to cricket type boxes.


Sorry, to clarify -

Corn snakes, yes, I keep hatchling corns in cricket tubs, have done so for the last 10 years. I'm talking about hatchling to the first few months. Obviously it depends on the age of the corn. In the case of very small hatchlings, I would rather see them on display in a cricket tub than a viv that's for sure! I am much more confident about a corn snake that's been kept in a hatchling tub eating for me.

However, when I was referring to temporary, obviously I mean large snakes being kept in tubs they can't move in, chameleons and other diurnal lizards in tubs without correct UVB source etc. I am a breeder of primarily corn snakes, to a smaller extent boas, royals.. and obviously hatchling snakes are housed in small containers until well established. I can't really speak on behalf of the lizard community as I'm not a big lizard breeder/keeper.

Some of the housing I consider to be perfectly acceptable (bar the water issue), some is only acceptable if on a very temporary basis.

Consider, most animals bought by shops are shipped overnight via TNT. These are shipped in similar containers (or even smaller) to the display at shows. They are subjected to extremes of temperatures - cold in the winter, heat in the summer. Lack of water, lack of food, lack of correct lighting etc. are all present. I would rather my corn snake be on display in it's hatchling tub, purchased, and transorted in someone's car back to the country it's going to... than it be shipped overnight by TNT. Yet far more reptiles are shipped via TNT every year than are bought at Hamm, I can guarantee that as I've seen some of the wholesale figures just for one company alone.

On an interesting note, the new Rheda show advertises full air conditioning for their venue. Perhaps this will help to stabilise air temperatures in the show to ensure that overheating does not occur, and perhaps this should be an important factor in organisers choosing a venue. If air temperature is guaranteed to be stable regardless of crowd or outside temperature, then we eliminate what is possible the worst risk to the animal at the show.

It would be great to do a study on the animals that return and see if any keepers notice stress indicators within the 24 hours of returning and on what species, how they were housed etc.. so areas of improvement could be considered, but it's unlikely such a study would get any funding.


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## gaz

have never experienced any probs with returning animals,they all go back to their usual day to day business without problems,i dont take tree boas to shows any more though,although that is purely to do with the travalling aspect and not conditions at any show i have attended
regards gaz


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## ratboy

gaz said:


> are we forgetting that all shows are inspected by vets before they open? they dont seem to have any problem with things as they are
> regards gaz


I have never, ever been asked anything by a vet at a show.


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## gaz

nevertheless, a vets inspection is always in place before any show can be opened,the ones i have watched take copious notes and then consult with the organisers,then any problems have been dealt with and only then has the show been allowed to go ahead.
So its reasonable to assume that the vets have no problem with show conditions in general
regards gaz


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## Maureen Collinson

I can just about recall years back when my Vet used to do the inspection for the BHS, and I attended with him. Although my Vet was great when dealing with ill reptiles, he was not up on all husbandry methods, and would not have always been able to judge stress for example, as when he saw the animals at the surgery, they were already ill and stressed, so as he looked around at the show, he would not know what should be the norm if that makes sense. That's where I came in. Please do remember that not all vets keep reptiles themselves, so will be sadly lacking in experience re the husbandry of many, so unless a reptile is going through death throws for example, things could be easily missed that an inexperienced eye would pick up on.

Mo.


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## Maureen Collinson

Athravan said:


> Sorry, to clarify -
> 
> Corn snakes, yes, I keep hatchling corns in cricket tubs, have done so for the last 10 years. I'm talking about hatchling to the first few months. Obviously it depends on the age of the corn. In the case of very small hatchlings, I would rather see them on display in a cricket tub than a viv that's for sure! I am much more confident about a corn snake that's been kept in a hatchling tub eating for me.
> 
> I was afraid you might come back with that.  May I please ask why you would wish to keep them in so small a container. It's only my personal opinion but I find that to be a very cruel and crude method of keeping the poor little hatchlings. I am not suggesting large vivs for the wee snakes, but surely you owe it to them to give them better than that. They go on to make money for you, so it's the least you could do for them. For the most boxes 12ins long x 6ins wide for example are easy enough to obtain for a £1.00 each at most places, and once paid for, last for many years, unlike the cheap fragile cricket boxes. I hope you at least buy new cricket boxes and make the holes yourself as most second hand boxes have very abrasive parts where the holes have been made, and can damage the corns little noses. Please don't tell me you cut corners there too. If so then the 'anti's' have reason to kick up a stink.
> 
> However, when I was referring to temporary, obviously I mean large snakes being kept in tubs they can't move in, chameleons and other diurnal lizards in tubs without correct UVB source etc. I am a breeder of primarily corn snakes, to a smaller extent boas, royals.. and obviously hatchling snakes are housed in small containers until well established. I can't really speak on behalf of the lizard community as I'm not a big lizard breeder/keeper.
> 
> Some of the housing I consider to be perfectly acceptable (bar the water issue), some is only acceptable if on a very temporary basis.
> 
> Consider, most animals bought by shops are shipped overnight via TNT. These are shipped in similar containers (or even smaller) to the display at shows. They are subjected to extremes of temperatures - cold in the winter, heat in the summer. Lack of water, lack of food, lack of correct lighting etc. are all present. I would rather my corn snake be on display in it's hatchling tub, purchased, and transorted in someone's car back to the country it's going to... than it be shipped overnight by TNT. Yet far more reptiles are shipped via TNT every year than are bought at Hamm, I can guarantee that as I've seen some of the wholesale figures just for one company alone.
> 
> Remember that many companies no longer do this now, and stricter and stricter regulations are on their way as I type, and I really believe that it will prove to be too much hassle soon for TNT, and they will also stop, so I won't bother taking this one up now.
> 
> On an interesting note, the new Rheda show advertises full air conditioning for their venue. Perhaps this will help to stabilise air temperatures in the show to ensure that overheating does not occur, and perhaps this should be an important factor in organisers choosing a venue. If air temperature is guaranteed to be stable regardless of crowd or outside temperature, then we eliminate what is possible the worst risk to the animal at the show.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> 
> It would be great to do a study on the animals that return and see if any keepers notice stress indicators within the 24 hours of returning and on what species, how they were housed etc.. so areas of improvement could be considered, but it's unlikely such a study would get any funding.


No change there then is there. 


Maureen.


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## Angi

Some excellent points made Maureen, sort of a "wake up and smell the coffee" moment for some I imagine.

I have not been to Hamm, but I have attended several UK shows and one at Houten. I do not believe for one moment that all the reptiles requirements are met appropriately at these shows and whilst this may not be much of a problem for some of the more hardy species, it is certainly detrimental to a large amount. Taking a look at the whole picture, how long are some of the reptiles kept in these conditions? Some may be travelling for a day or even two to get to the show and a day or two to return or reach their new destination. Im sure many will have read the threads regarding some of the purchased reptiles dying on transit.

If we are to put animal welfare first then we should not be wasting our time arguing black is white, but identifying the areas that could be improved and taking positive steps to remedy the problems. A simple process, assess, plan, implement actions then re-evaluate to see if things work better. Why waste our time on the negativeness and bickering when we could all work together on improving the conditions for the creatures we all love, and through our actions we would naturally be protecting our rights to keep reptiles by showing that we do care, we are capable of change for the better for our animals.

My questions would be 
Where do we start? How can we go about this? Who could we get involved?

As probably the busiest reptile forum in the UK surely we could all put our heads together and come up with a positive way forward from this situation.


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## Iliria

i think things do need to change in some ways, but this guy clifford seems a nit of a twit to me. its a pity people listen to him just because he has letters after his name


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## Molly75

I think I'm with Nerys and Maureen on this one but at the same time have conflicting views 

I do attend Hamm and also Uk shows in fact I'm involved in one The thing is yes it does pluck the the heatstrings i don't like to take reps if i can help it and only take a few i sell from home most the time as i hate the thought of my little ones being in tubs all day but there are a lot of caring breeders who also do the shows and feel the same i would for one be happy to provide bigger tubs have a hide and light vivs if needed so water and heat can be provided as i know most of use also take along all our mats etc so that we can provide the best care.

yes there are WC reptiles in Hamm sadly there is always going to be wild reptiles as imports are pennies and there is always going to be dealer making a quick buck my friend bought a ball against my advice dealer told him CB i said WC sadly it was dead a month later due to no fault of its new keeper.

i think in the long shot yep a snake lizard is fine for a bit with no water and the only way we can show these people is by improving our own standards after all we love our reps yes but we all want to make some money I need to pay my 225 a fortnight food bill and 120 a month electricty bill.

After all these people only ever see this side of keeping don't expect many of them would have thought many breeders have driven hundereds of miles or paid large travel fees just to ensure that a hatchling reptile with severe defects has a chance of a life 

So to sum it up yes this man is an TWAT but i can see both sides 

paula


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## Maureen Collinson

Angi said:


> Some excellent points made Maureen, sort of a "wake up and smell the coffee" moment for some I imagine.
> 
> Thanks Angie.  I just hope it does make members think about it all. You know me pretty well, and thus will be aware of the fact that my only personal gain here would be the satisfaction of knowing that creatures that have to rely on us keepers for their needs are getting what they require to keep them as healthy and happy as is within our powers to give them as caring owners.
> 
> 
> 
> I have not been to Hamm, but I have attended several UK shows and one at Houten. I do not believe for one moment that all the reptiles requirements are met appropriately at these shows and whilst this may not be much of a problem for some of the more hardy species, it is certainly detrimental to a large amount. Taking a look at the whole picture, how long are some of the reptiles kept in these conditions? Some may be travelling for a day or even two to get to the show and a day or two to return or reach their new destination. Im sure many will have read the threads regarding some of the purchased reptiles dying on transit.
> 
> Spot on Angie. As for the poor reptiles that died during transit, well that still hurts me like hell to think about it.  The facts of that are spread on many forums including those of animal welfare groups, and yes I have read it first hand elsewhere. The hole that the reptile community is digging for it's self will soon be too deep to climb out of, and it will have no one but it's self to blame. Even the good caring silent keepers will be to blame for keeping silent, instead of trying to stand up for creatures that can't defend themselves, so won't be being seen in a good light either, and in fact might well be looked at harder and condemned even more than the average 'Joe Bloggs', as they know what's right and wrong, but have chosen not to be :censor: to do anything to try to change things. A case of ' I'm alright Jack and so are my animals'
> For those that don't like what I am saying, well please accept that my words are mild. There is far worse to come, of that I'm sure, if there is not a big shake up now, rather than later, when it could be too late.
> 
> If we are to put animal welfare first then we should not be wasting our time arguing black is white, but identifying the areas that could be improved and taking positive steps to remedy the problems. A simple process, assess, plan, implement actions then re-evaluate to see if things work better. Why waste our time on the negativeness and bickering when we could all work together on improving the conditions for the creatures we all love, and through our actions we would naturally be protecting our rights to keep reptiles by showing that we do care, we are capable of change for the better for our animals.
> 
> Well said Angie. A++++++ :no1: I agree with all of that, and would prefer to be putting my experience to better use than the ranting here at present.
> 
> 
> My questions would be
> Where do we start? How can we go about this? Who could we get involved?
> 
> As probably the busiest reptile forum in the UK surely we could all put our heads together and come up with a positive way forward from this situation.



Brilliant suggestion. Will be interesting to see how many are willing to step forward with comments/suggestions of the way forward that shows us as responsible carers of our reptilian charges.

Mo.


----------



## purejurrasic

> I have not been to Hamm, but I have attended several UK shows and one at Houten. I do not believe for one moment that all the reptiles requirements are met appropriately at these shows and whilst this may not be much of a problem for some of the more hardy species, it is certainly detrimental to a large amount. Taking a look at the whole picture, how long are some of the reptiles kept in these conditions? Some may be travelling for a day or even two to get to the show and a day or two to return or reach their new destination. Im sure many will have read the threads regarding some of the purchased reptiles dying on transit.
> 
> Spot on Angie. As for the poor reptiles that died during transit, well that still hurts me like hell to think about it. :sad: The facts of that are spread on many forums including those of animal welfare groups, and yes I have read it first hand elsewhere. The hole that the reptile community is digging for it's self will soon be too deep to climb out of, and it will have no one but it's self to blame. Even the good caring silent keepers will be to blame for keeping silent, instead of trying to stand up for creatures that can't defend themselves, so won't be being seen in a good light either, and in fact might well be looked at harder and condemned even more than the average 'Joe Bloggs', as they know what's right and wrong, but have chosen not to be :censor: to do anything to try to change things. A case of ' I'm alright Jack and so are my animals'
> For those that don't like what I am saying, well please accept that my words are mild. There is far worse to come, of that I'm sure, if there is not a big shake up now, rather than later, when it could be too late.


Is it the deaths on the coach in March that you are refering to here?


----------



## gaz

why not just bin the shows altogether? less for the antis to see and all the assosciated problems removed in one move
regards gaz


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## Maureen Collinson

purejurrasic said:


> Is it the deaths on the coach in March that you are refering to here?


I am referring to that sad incident yes. As for the animal rights groups, I can't say for sure, but it is a fact that they are monitoring all these reptile forums, and they do refer to the reptiles that were brought at the Hamm show and died on the way back to the UK as has been talked about on the reptile forums, so like me, you will have to make what you will of it. Sorry I can't be more precise.

Maureen.


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## chris_walton

SORRY HAVE TO HAVE MY SAY

but did no one esle that went see, the wardens going round in the black t-shirts pointing things out to the stall holders, i saw one telling a man his leopard gecko was incorrectly labelled and its container was to small, i saw three of these wardens in all but i assumed there was more.

and even though there may have been a few dodgy dealers at the show how come every single person got labelled with the same brush as the good far out weighed the bad in many ways.

i would just like to point out to our foreign cousins please dont think all us british are the same, please dont tarnish us all with the same brush as there are far more good people in england than bad.

i do think though if you did go looking for bad things that is all you are going to see and would it not be more fare to send someone that had not opinion either way or send three people one for, one against, and one either way and get a report from all three

my opinion only is the rspca do an excellent job with cats, dogs, ponies, etc... but when it comes down to specialist reptiles they have no clue for example the inspector that placed a tortoise in a bucket of water thinking it was a terrapin hence it died or one tortoise caresheet covering all tortoises explaining they can eat meat mmmmmmmmm maybe they should consentrate on what they do best and set up another specialist team for more exotic animals and reptiles

chris x x


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## ratboy

The point is Chris, the people writing the report were only looking for bad things. They are an animal rights organisation that objects to the sale of animals full stop.

They will write reports to make any show look as bad as they possibly can. The problem comes when the public read these reports and assume that there is nothing good.

Have you ever seen an animal rights organisation report on something and say "This show was all great !!!!" ?


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## purejurrasic

Maureen Collinson said:


> I am referring to that sad incident yes. As for the animal rights groups, I can't say for sure, but it is a fact that they are monitoring all these reptile forums, and they do refer to the reptiles that were brought at the Hamm show and died on the way back to the UK as has been talked about on the reptile forums, so like me, you will have to make what you will of it. Sorry I can't be more precise.
> 
> Maureen.


Well, in this respect I can be more precise.

Yes, There has been a lot of talk on forums, but Facts are not always posted for many different reasons.


The ONLY fact that has been posted is that some animals did die.

There has been much talk as to why, how, who etc, but thats only talk, and you may have noticed I have not commented on any of that, and for good reason, there may be legal action involved, so rather than shout my head off in public defending something, I am waiting until I have ALL the details.

Now, we have spoken to different agencies, but NO ONE has asked us any questions , and as such one must question how reliable these so called facts are.

Maybe you can pm me links to those threads (not on RFUK) so I may take a look myself.


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## chris_walton

ratboy said:


> The point is Chris, the people writing the report were only looking for bad things. They are an animal rights organisation that objects to the sale of animals full stop.
> 
> They will write reports to make any show look as bad as they possibly can. The problem comes when the public read these reports and assume that there is nothing good.
> 
> Have you ever seen an animal rights organisation report on something and say "This show was all great !!!!" ?


lol no i havent but i have been fighting my own little battle with someone who did a report on the show for cliff

Shelled Warriors :: View topic - back from hamm


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## eddiemunt

*Reptile Shows*

All,
Some of the posts on this forum by people i respect are leading me to the conclusion that they want ALL the Reptile Shows banned. Why have i reached this conclusion? They are repeating exactly the same demands as our extremist opponents so, no, they are not antis but they might as well be regarding shows. So we may as well call for the banning of all shows. Sad day for the hobby. I personally have not attended any shows for over 2 years so i have no personal axe to grind but i do know politics and effectively the extremist are being handed the shows on a plate.

Eddie Munt (REPTA director)


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## gaz

personally i have no problems complying with the rules,when i do European shows they are far stricter than UK shows,however i do feel that two points are being somewhat glossed over in these threads. firstly that their purpose is the selling of reptiles,the more rules you put on people the less people will bother with shows,far better to enforce the rules already in place rather than piling on more.
secondly we are dealing with animals that have evolved to be tough as old boots,many of the animals we deal with would have extreme conditions to contend with for at least half the year in the wild and here we have people going off on one over animals being boxed up for a few hours-couple of days,has it not occurred to anyone that even small scale breeders like myself have £100,000 or so invested in our animals and are not about to do anything to jeopardise this,every show attended involves a great deal of care selecting healthy stock,packing it well,providing heat when needed,paperwork etc etc,we dont just throw a few animals in boxes and bugger off to make a few quid.
Concentrate on enforcing the rules in place,weed out the numbnuts and its job done,no need for endless debate,when the shows are running fine with the rules already in place,then maybe you can encourage the breeders/sellers to improve on their displays,just be aware most of us do very well without attending any shows and without us there would be no shows.
regards gaz


----------



## eddiemunt

Nerys said:


> sorry all
> 
> but i have to agree with some of the issues raised..
> 
> yes, there are quite a few wild caught animals at the events, if houten was anything to go by, i personally recognised a few of the table holders, who i KNOW deal mainly in WC stock..
> 
> secondly, the conditions the animals are kept or displayed in... whilst there are some who make the effort to have decent display housing... again, there are many that do not...
> 
> i personally do not think that the table holders help the hobby, by having so many reptiles packed into small display tubs, lined along tables..
> 
> and yeah, that may make me unpopular, but whats new lol..
> 
> i personally think that the way reptiles are shown displayed and sold at reptile shows DOES need looking at.. i have said it before, and no doubt i will say it again, but, for instance, no i don't think it is fair on an adult leopard gecko, to spend all day in a cricket box with no access to hides/food or water.. especially not when it is then sat with 200 others stacked next to, above, and below. i do NOT think this portrays our hobby in a good light at all..
> 
> and having been a table holder at uk shows, i can understand why they are displayed as they are.. if you give a reptile a choice, it WILL hide away from view, and you WON'T make as many sales...
> 
> but does that not say something in itself?? that the reptile would rather hide away?? Mmmmmm
> 
> people display them as they do, because they make more money from doing so. not becasue the animals are comfier that way. whilst its all well and good to say.. ah well it doesn't do them any harm for a day... that still surely does not make it acceptable?
> 
> however, the comments about clifford (on this thread) i do agree with..
> 
> as do i the comments about the morphs, although again i would point out that i saw plenty of wildcaught ropey manky animals at houten, and have no reason to suspect hamm was any better! not to mention the fact that yes, the german market is well known for imports, both legal and otherwise.
> 
> so... whilst i do not agree with a lot of the spin in that article.. sorry guys, but there is some i DO agree with..
> 
> Nerys


 
All,
Having responded to the same post and others on another forum, i will give an edited response. You and others have handed the shows to the antis on a plate. We may as well all support the banning of shows now as that is obviously what you desire. I just hope it is not just to benefit certain uk breeders,

Eddie Munt.


----------



## ratboy

eddiemunt said:


> All,
> Having responded to the same post and others on another forum, i will give an edited response. You and others have handed the shows to the antis on a plate. We may as well all support the banning of shows now as that is obviously what you desire. I just hope it is not just to benefit certain uk breeders,
> 
> Eddie Munt.


Eddie,

I think all that is being called for is a review in the way animals are treated at shows. Not the banning of the shows themselves.... although I have not read the threads on other forums.

From what I have read here though... I fail to see how wanting the welfare of animals at shows improved can be a bad thing ?

Steve


----------



## toyah

ratboy said:


> I think all that is being called for is a review in the way animals are treated at shows. Not the banning of the shows themselves.... although I have not read the threads on other forums.
> 
> From what I have read here though... I fail to see how wanting the welfare of animals at shows improved can be a bad thing ?


Quite. It would be very disappointing if every welfare concern or idea for improvement of the animal markets run by UK societies was met by a negative response, simply because some concerns from dedicated reptile keepers happen to match with some of the concerns put forward by "antis". Should we never make any improvements or changes, in case it's seen as admitting our current situation is not perfect?


----------



## eddiemunt

*shows*

All,

We have campaigned for years to try and keep the shows running. We have bent over backwards to accomodate the extremists' demands and it made no difference to them whatsoever because they want an end to ALL reptile keeping and it has nothing to do with welfare. It would not make a jot of difference to the antis if all reptiles at shows were in perfect habitats, they would still want them banned. The fact that some reptiles died on their way back from Hamm and it has been brought by our so called supporters has given the extremists the chance to allege that transporting reptiles will kill them. So cant transport them to shows which means no shows. Nice one and congrats to the antis because the hobbyists,breeders etc are helping you. For my part, i will no longer advise that we fight for the shows, so go ahead and let them get banned. It would also seem that we now have "our" side wanting a ban on w/c or farmed reptiles. Go ahead but remember that a c.b import ban will be next on the agenda for the extremists but will of course suit uk breeders.

Eddie Munt. "the extremists win"


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## Maureen Collinson

Eddie,

I echo the replies from both Steve and Toyah. They have outlined my thoughts exactly in reply to your above comments.

Mo.


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## gaz

toyah said:


> Quite. It would be very disappointing if every welfare concern or idea for improvement of the animal markets run by UK societies was met by a negative response, simply because some concerns from dedicated reptile keepers happen to match with some of the concerns put forward by "antis". Should we never make any improvements or changes, in case it's seen as admitting our current situation is not perfect?


if the rules in existence cant or wont be enforced whats the point of introducing a new raft of rules?? 
gaz


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## kingsnake

The latest from the government is that they have no intention of banning breeders/hobbyist meetings. They can AND will continue without the need for licencing and allowing the general public access to them. DEFRA has had its budget cut and the legislation they want to introduce regarding these fairs may not be done - because they're skint!


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## Young_Gun

kingsnake said:


> The latest from the government is that they have no intention of banning breeders/hobbyist meetings. They can AND will continue without the need for licencing and allowing the general public access to them. DEFRA has had its budget cut and the legislation they want to introduce regarding these fairs may not be done - because they're skint!


DEFRA has had it's budget cut on a totally different section, they could still easily afford to pass the legislation.

If you know how DEFRA works they receive funding for seperate areas and do not have a 'general' funding source.


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## ratboy

gaz said:


> if the rules in existence cant or wont be enforced whats the point of introducing a new raft of rules??
> gaz


Because maybe a new breed of show will come about where they are adhered to end enforced ?

Sorry... but this argument is like saying "What is the point in having laws if people break them ?"


----------



## toyah

gaz said:


> if the rules in existence cant or wont be enforced whats the point of introducing a new raft of rules??
> gaz


If the rules can't be enforced (which is different to "won't") then they are not good or useful rules and should be altered or clarified until we have something that can be enforced.

Once we have rules that are clear and easy to enforce - plus a show team willing to enforce them and "police" them at shows - then we can work on ensuring people meet the standards set out for them.


----------



## Young_Gun

toyah said:


> If the rules can't be enforced (which is different to "won't") then they are not good or useful rules and should be altered or clarified until we have something that can be enforced.
> 
> Once we have rules that are clear and easy to enforce - plus a show team willing to enforce them and "police" them at shows - then we can work on ensuring people meet the standards set out for them.


But then surely, with these 'police' at shows wouldn't/couldn't it alienate small private breeders or people tryin there hand at selling at a show, not everyone can justify the expense of sales displays etc.

Also, I believe that if the shows were 'policed' the antis would want them policed by people/groups/organisations that they were members of or supported and that could open up a whole new can of worms.

I believe there are a few small changes that need to be seen to, but for there to be so many people suggesting overhauls of shows etc, surely it's just the ammunition anti's want 'Rep keepers condemn own shows' etc etc.


----------



## eddiemunt

*shows*

Maureen,

The only way to achieve your goals will be to ban all shows, which is what the extremists want. Now the subject of transportation deaths has been introduced to the show scene so will be another target for the extremists. No, you have to campaign for the banning of all reptile shows. So go for it, i will not fight against,

Eddie Munt.


----------



## toyah

Young_Gun said:


> But then surely, with these 'police' at shows wouldn't/couldn't it alienate small private breeders or people tryin there hand at selling at a show, not everyone can justify the expense of sales displays etc.


Who is talking about expensive sales displays? I would personally like all animals to be in individual containers that they can move in and hide in, with appropriate temperatures and access to fresh water. You don't need to spend a lot of money or time to provide that.



Young_Gun said:


> Also, I believe that if the shows were 'policed' the antis would want them policed by people/groups/organisations that they were members of or supported and that could open up a whole new can of worms.


You misunderstand me. By someone policing the show, I meant that the organisers should look round and ensure that any violations of the rules are taken care of ... rather than just turning a blind eye to people who don't follow the rules that are in place.



Young_Gun said:


> I believe there are a few small changes that need to be seen to, but for there to be so many people suggesting overhauls of shows etc, surely it's just the ammunition anti's want 'Rep keepers condemn own shows' etc etc.


As I said - should we never make any improvements or changes, in case it's seen as admitting our current situation is not perfect? What small changes would you want to see? What major overhauls have been suggested that you just think are a step too far?


----------



## ratboy

Young_Gun said:


> But then surely, with these 'police' at shows wouldn't/couldn't it alienate small private breeders or people tryin there hand at selling at a show, not everyone can justify the expense of sales displays etc.


If the ease of people selling has become more important than what they are selling ... then perhaps Eddie is right.


----------



## Young_Gun

toyah said:


> Who is talking about expensive sales displays? I would personally like all animals to be in individual containers that they can move in and hide in, with appropriate temperatures and access to fresh water. You don't need to spend a lot of money or time to provide that.
> 
> 
> 
> You misunderstand me. By someone policing the show, I meant that the organisers should look round and ensure that any violations of the rules are taken care of ... rather than just turning a blind eye to people who don't follow the rules that are in place.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said - should we never make any improvements or changes, in case it's seen as admitting our current situation is not perfect? What small changes would you want to see? What major overhauls have been suggested that you just think are a step too far?


I read it wrongly then, sorry mate.

We should make improvements when they are needed, I agree that some animals would benefit from larger containers, an adult beardie in a takeaway container is too small IMO, but a corn snake in a cricket tub (the new folding sided ones) is fine, with the water issue would you have the same consideration for inverts or just for reptiles?

I think a lot of the things are valid points but I think it should be done privately via show organisers who can then put it in the public forum for opinions if they wish to confer, as this way the antis are getting an opportunity to directly quote herp keepers/breeders agreeing with points.

Ratboy, I meant, for example if you attended one show a year, would it be viable to you to spend £150 on tubs for display?


----------



## ratboy

Young_Gun said:


> Ratboy, I meant, for example if you attended one show a year, would it be viable to you to spend £150 on tubs for display?


If you are selling 150 animals at say £20-£30 each ( assuming £1 a tub ) then yes. Assuming you sold them all you would make £3000


----------



## Young_Gun

ratboy said:


> If you are selling 150 animals at say £20-£30 each ( assuming £1 a tub ) then yes. Assuming you sold them all you would make £3000


Unless you were sellin somethin like geckos or corns, I doubt you getting 'suitably' sized tubs for £1 each, including hides, water bowl/dish.


----------



## toyah

eddiemunt said:


> Now the subject of transportation deaths has been introduced to the show scene so will be another target for the extremists.


The subject of transportation deaths has been introduced because animals die in transport, and as such it's an issue that I think all caring and concerned reptile owners would like to prevent in future - and even uncaring and unconcerned reptile owners should be concerned because it is the sort of thing that, if not addressed, could become a target for antis and be damaging to shows. To imply that it shouldn't be brought up because of extremists latching on to it, I find unpleasant - we cannot pretend animals do not die simply to keep up appearances. I'm sorry if I've misread your post but that is the impression I took from your wording.

A few years back, quite a few owners had fancy rats die en route to shows and home again - and a few near-misses at summer shows, mainly due to high temperatures. No-one suggested shows should be cancelled entirely, no-one condemned the owners of the rats that had died. Instead, the clubs ensured that their magazines/newsletters contained information about transporting animals, precautions to take regarding temperatures, and what to provide to try and minimise stress in transport.

So - in my mind that is a good example. Unpleasant deaths happened, and it was taken as an opportunity to educate owners and exhibitors, it was open and the emphasis was on ensuring the experience wasn't repeated, not on finding blame, or sweeping it under the carpet. We can't definitely guarantee that no animals will die in transit ever again, but why can't the organisations holding the shows provide a "factsheet" or similar to all table holders for transportation to the venue, and then again have some available for people taking animals home? It would be useful, potentially save lives, and (more importantly for some, it appears) keep up appearances to the antis as we as a fancy are seen to be learning from bad experiences and making sure that they are not repeated.


----------



## kingsnake

I do know DEFRA, I work for one of its agencies. The cuts are across the board.


----------



## ratboy

Young_Gun said:


> Unless you were sellin somethin like geckos or corns, I doubt you getting 'suitably' sized tubs for £1 each, including hides, water bowl/dish.


True mate... but then you would presumably be selling them for more than £20-£30. Water bowls for a little hatchling need be no more than an upside down plastic milk carton lid, and a hide need be no more than a bit of cardboard tubing.


----------



## Young_Gun

ratboy said:


> True mate... but then you would presumably be selling them for more than £20-£30. Water bowls for a little hatchling need be no more than an upside down plastic milk carton lid, and a hide need be no more than a bit of cardboard tubing.


Aye, I'm not being pedantic mate and I agree with most of the changes raised


----------



## eddiemunt

toyah said:


> The subject of transportation deaths has been introduced because animals die in transport, and as such it's an issue that I think all caring and concerned reptile owners would like to prevent in future - and even uncaring and unconcerned reptile owners should be concerned because it is the sort of thing that, if not addressed, could become a target for antis and be damaging to shows. To imply that it shouldn't be brought up because of extremists latching on to it, I find unpleasant - we cannot pretend animals do not die simply to keep up appearances. I'm sorry if I've misread your post but that is the impression I took from your wording.
> 
> A few years back, quite a few owners had fancy rats die en route to shows and home again - and a few near-misses at summer shows, mainly due to high temperatures. No-one suggested shows should be cancelled entirely, no-one condemned the owners of the rats that had died. Instead, the clubs ensured that their magazines/newsletters contained information about transporting animals, precautions to take regarding temperatures, and what to provide to try and minimise stress in transport.
> 
> So - in my mind that is a good example. Unpleasant deaths happened, and it was taken as an opportunity to educate owners and exhibitors, it was open and the emphasis was on ensuring the experience wasn't repeated, not on finding blame, or sweeping it under the carpet. We can't definitely guarantee that no animals will die in transit ever again, but why can't the organisations holding the shows provide a "factsheet" or similar to all table holders for transportation to the venue, and then again have some available for people taking animals home? It would be useful, potentially save lives, and (more importantly for some, it appears) keep up appearances to the antis as we as a fancy are seen to be learning from bad experiences and making sure that they are not repeated.


 
You are totally missing the point of my post. Do you have any figures on losses due to transportation? I attended shows for 5 years and never lost a single reptile. Losses in transport generally only occur with sick animals bought at or taken to shows neither of which situation should occur. The way these comments on transportation are being made is giving the impression that many healthy reptiles are dying in transportation which is untrue and is giving propaganda to the extremists. For your information, i care very much about reptile welfare which is why i was involved with an area RSPCA inspector who produced a memorandum of understanding which would have been of enormous benefit to reptile. This MOU was turned down by the RSPCA Ruling council. The inspector is now head of the RSPCA's inspectorate and we are still in contact. I do not therefore appreciate snide comments. Get me some facts on deaths before you act as if you are an expert.

Eddie Munt.


----------



## Young_Gun

eddiemunt said:


> You are totally missing the point of my post. Do you have any figures on losses due to transportation? I attended shows for 5 years and never lost a single reptile. Losses in transport generally only occur with sick animals bought at or taken to shows neither of which situation should occur. The way these comments on transportation are being made is giving the impression that many healthy reptiles are dying in transportation which is untrue and is giving propaganda to the extremists. For your information, i care very much about reptile welfare which is why i was involved with an area RSPCA inspector who produced a memorandum of understanding which would have been of enormous benefit to reptile. This MOU was turned down by the RSPCA Ruling council. The inspector is now head of the RSPCA's inspectorate and we are still in contact. I do not therefore appreciate snide comments. Get me some facts on deaths before you act as if you are an expert.
> 
> Eddie Munt.


Toyah was simply stating that we should try and limit any losses, even those due to sick or down to negligence from the buyer.

Which I agree with, she is only trying to make suggestions that could limit losses.

I can personally see both sides but the last thing we need as a group is in fighting.


----------



## toyah

eddiemunt said:


> You are totally missing the point of my post. Do you have any figures on losses due to transportation? I attended shows for 5 years and never lost a single reptile.


I've transported animals round for a long while without killing a single one, either - the vast majority of us manage this task very well. I feel you totally missed the point of my post, though I'll not stoop to your level in my reply as you have in yours (such as calling my comments "snide" and writing in a rude manner, despite a pre-emptive apology from me in case I'd misread the tone of your initial post).

The actual amount of animals that have died during transportation is irrelevant - the fact that they are public knowledge, whether there's one or a hundred, is relevant. As such, I personally believe it would be advantageous from an animal welfare point of view for our representatives, the clubs that hold these shows, to be seen to be taking action to ensure that people are provided with the facts on how to make sure that animals are transported in as stress-free an environment as possible. I agree with you that unhealthy animals are more likely to become ill or die in those circumstances, but obviously any animal subjected to incorrect conditions can potentially show ill-effects, no matter how wonderful their initial condition.

I do agree that some of the comments made on transportation give an unfair impression of the risks. I would hope that any information handed out by clubs or given online regarding the safe and stress-free transportation of reptiles emphasises that as long as common sense guidelines are adhered to, illness or death in reptiles caused by transportation is a very very rare event.


----------



## gaz

ratboy said:


> Because maybe a new breed of show will come about where they are adhered to end enforced ?
> 
> Sorry... but this argument is like saying "What is the point in having laws if people break them ?"


 
and what exactly makes you think "the new rules" will be enforced?? we already have a decent set of rules governing reptile shows,all thats needed is to enforce them,never understood the concept of fixing things that are not broken. Your way of thinking is rather like central government,oooooooo things aint quite right lets bung a whole new raft of rules onto everyone so it looks like somethings being done.........and then quietly bypass the enforcement issue. If you cant make people comply with the rules then theres no point to rules....old or new,like i said before i have no problem complying,so if you get everyone else to comply too then there is no problem to be solved except possibly the size of display boxes and on that note you would simply have to impose a standard size in relation to the size of animal contained,otherwise the arguments will be endless,to the detriment of shows in general.
regards gaz


----------



## purejurrasic

I am fed up with the deaths on the coaches being made out to be so widespread that the hobby should be banned.

There is only one person that can put it in perspective, ME.

Whilst I do agree any death is regrettable and sad, animals do die, humans die plants die, sometime you can see it coming, sometimes you cant.

Anyway, on our 2 coaches, we had over 750 declared reptiles and more than 2000 inverts.

We had three single reports of deaths, one gecko here, another there, all in poly boxes along with other reptiles which survived with no problem.

On one coach there were 10 reported amphibian deaths, all from one box, and on the other 2 boxes containing a total 31 animals, 6 of which were known by the owner to be very sensitive to temp changes.

So, out of over 2750 animals, there 49 reported deaths. As yet there has been nothing to say what these animals were like prior to packing, no vet inspection to confirm suitability for travel and not even see or packed by us.

We have consulted with Animal health and TSA and the OFT both prior to our trip and after, they are aware of these deaths and confirmed that we did nothing wrong.

The fact so many arrived back fine, (and in some cases on the cold side) suggests that there was no inherent problem, that the trip was not a disaster for all and that the hold of the coach was not infact a hell hole of death for illegally imported restricted animals.

And for all the talk going on, ONLY ONE person asked us about temps, and one person checked them thierselves. Both got their animals back home safe and sound. NO ONE else even bothered to ask about the temps, so much for concearn about the animals eh.

Now, before any of you ask, no I cant talk about the more specific points as we may still be subject to legal action by those who lost animals, so I am sure you will understand why up till now we have not made the above clear. We wont be commenting further until that threat is lifted.

Tony


----------



## eddiemunt

*transport issue*

Toyah,

Fine, go ahead and push the "transport deaths" as an issue. You should demand that only air conditioned vehicles should be used for reptile transportation. As for quoting the death of show rats, there is a vast difference between the tolerance of confined rats(mammals) and confined reptiles to to ambient temperatures. I will make no further comments and wiil advise our organisations to no longer spend any resources trying to save shows. 

Eddie Munt.


----------



## sparkle

very very interesting thread...

its actually put me off going to hamm next year even in my own car...


lots of varying view points being debated which is always excellent


----------



## toyah

eddiemunt said:


> Fine, go ahead and push the "transport deaths" as an issue. You should demand that only air conditioned vehicles should be used for reptile transportation. As for quoting the death of show rats, there is a vast difference between the tolerance of confined rats(mammals) and confined reptiles to to ambient temperatures. I will make no further comments and wiil advise our organisations to no longer spend any resources trying to save shows.


I don't actually feel transport is a major issue, and I'd be happy to travel on coach to Hamm in future and I do travel to shows in England with animals (mammals and snakes). But I see nothing wrong with pushing education on this issue!

I didn't bring transport up, I simply feel that surely we'd be better off making sure people know how to prevent possible transportation issues rather than waiting until the antis jump on it. It's not a show issue either ... it's any transport of an animal from one place to another.

I appreciate the vast differences between rats and reptiles, my example was mainly to show the response of the societies involved, as a positive example of how an issue that could be jumped on as a "ban shows" issue being taken in hand and managed in a way that avoided negative feeling. I would have been extremely upset for the clubs involved to simply say "right, no more shows" instead of looking for a positive way forward.


----------



## royalpython

i'm sure it was discussed that the temperature of the hold was 75F... which suited me, hence why i never asked. Am i wrong?


----------



## purejurrasic

royalpython said:


> i'm sure it was discussed that the temperature of the hold was 75F... which suited me, hence why i never asked. Am i wrong?


We did make a point of telling freekygeeky that the min temp was 73 and max was 76 on the way out, and Young Gun confirmed this was also the case on the way back.

You may well have heard this and accepted it as being ok saving the need to ask.


----------



## ratboy

purejurrasic said:


> We did make a point of telling freekygeeky that the min temp was 73 and max was 76 on the way out, and Young Gun confirmed this was also the case on the way back.
> 
> You may well have heard this and accepted it as being ok saving the need to ask.


It is worrying that very few people thought to ask though.


----------



## ratboy

gaz said:


> and what exactly makes you think "the new rules" will be enforced?? we already have a decent set of rules governing reptile shows,all thats needed is to enforce them,never understood the concept of fixing things that are not broken. Your way of thinking is rather like central government,oooooooo things aint quite right lets bung a whole new raft of rules onto everyone so it looks like somethings being done.........and then quietly bypass the enforcement issue. If you cant make people comply with the rules then theres no point to rules....old or new,like i said before i have no problem complying,so if you get everyone else to comply too then there is no problem to be solved except possibly the size of display boxes and on that note you would simply have to impose a standard size in relation to the size of animal contained,otherwise the arguments will be endless,to the detriment of shows in general.
> regards gaz


I think the size of display boxes and the provision of water are the only suggestions I have put forward... in which case I would hope that everyone would comply if they became show rules. Not exactly hard things for the organisers to check are they.


----------



## Guest

eddiemunt said:


> Toyah,
> 
> Fine, go ahead and push the "transport deaths" as an issue. You should demand that only air conditioned vehicles should be used for reptile transportation. As for quoting the death of show rats, there is a vast difference between the tolerance of confined rats(mammals) and confined reptiles to to ambient temperatures. I will make no further comments and wiil advise our organisations to no longer spend any resources trying to save shows.
> 
> Eddie Munt.


Why would you advise that ?


----------



## ratboy

SteveL said:


> Why would you advise that ?


It does seem an extreme course of action to someone mentioning a few facts.


----------



## eddiemunt

*transportation*



SteveL said:


> Why would you advise that ?


Steve,

Because that would seem to be the only way to keep the people who are going on about transportation deaths and giving propaganda to the extremists. 

Eddie Munt.


----------



## Guest

The extremists make up there own agendas though, its not like these few problems are new.I think the issue needs to be discussed not advised against


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

eddiemunt said:


> Toyah,
> 
> Fine, go ahead and push the "transport deaths" as an issue. You should demand that only air conditioned vehicles should be used for reptile transportation. As for quoting the death of show rats, there is a vast difference between the tolerance of confined rats(mammals) and confined reptiles to to ambient temperatures. I will make no further comments and wiil advise our organisations to no longer spend any resources trying to save shows.
> 
> Eddie Munt.


Hi Eddie, 

I am slightly confused.

Yesterday you were signed on as REPTA Director, the reason l ask about this is because of this comment;

"I will make no further comments and wiil advise our organisations to no longer spend any resources trying to save shows". 

What does REPTA have to do with the shows anyway?

Is that not the task of the FBH?

Rory


----------



## Young_Gun

ratboy said:


> It is worrying that very few people thought to ask though.


Especially people with 'fragile' animals.

The hold temps were perfect which suggests to me it was the animals in question, but then doesn't that raise the issue then that maybe animals for sale should be checked by a vet prior to going up for sale aswell then?

I think there will always be sellers who will try it on, ones who care more about making a profit than the animals welfare, even going against show rules, one experience I have seen of this is at a well known invert show, a seller will try and get away with selling DWA inverts on his table, as the organisers go round themselves and look at things for sale they notice and remove the seller from the hall, should something similar be in place for checking on the condition of animals, not just that they are in a suitably sized container with a hide and a water bowl?

Another thing though is, most stalls rely on people walking past and something catching there eye, I for one don't check every single stall, so if animals are in tubs with hides etc, surely that will have a negative effect on sales for most sellers, animal welfare does and should always come first, but people are there to sell their animals.


----------



## ratboy

I hear you YG.. But buying something that catches your eye is more often than not an impulse buy which is something I would imagine the majority of keepers are guilty of at one time or another... myself included. I am lucky in that I go for the less common species of rat snake so the buying temptation at shows is usually somewhat limited by virtue of the fact that very few people breed them.

In a 100% ideal world, yes all animals on sale should be checked beforehand. But the world is not ideal and if there is one thing that is obvious in this hobby it is that change is not welcomed... so one step at a time. 

My personal view is to leave the politics to those that know how to fight it and get on with providing what is best for my animals.


----------



## purejurrasic

The most worrying thing is that people will still buy from a 'name' that displays animals in cricket tubs!

I can think of more than one show last year, where there were a number of respected hobby breeders, some here on RFUK, who invested in good size tubs, water and hides, temp equipment etc, who sat and watched crowds of buyers swamping other tables with piles of cricket tubs on top of each other under strong lamps.

My respect to those sellers who took the effort and didnt sell out to the pile em high club and heres hoping that buyers start to take care where they buy their next animal from.

After all, its the buyers that keep the hobby going.


----------



## ratboy

Another point to remember though PJ is that many animals are pre-sold and people use shows to pick those animals up. So well known breeders will always get a fair share of people arriving to pay for and pick up animals that they have already committed to.


----------



## Young_Gun

ratboy said:


> I hear you YG.. But buying something that catches your eye is more often than not an impulse buy which is something I would imagine the majority of keepers are guilty of at one time or another... myself included. I am lucky in that I go for the less common species of rat snake so the buying temptation at shows is usually somewhat limited by virtue of the fact that very few people breed them.
> 
> In a 100% ideal world, yes all animals on sale should be checked beforehand. But the world is not ideal and if there is one thing that is obvious in this hobby it is that change is not welcomed... so one step at a time.
> 
> *My personal view is to leave the politics to those that know how to fight it and get on with providing what is best for my animals*.


I agree with that in essence, but if we don't at least try and get involved or voice our opinion then when rules/laws are passed that we don't agree with, we have no cause to moan or disagree.

I also agree with that, I have certain things in mind, but I will admit to impulse buying when I see something pretty :lol2: but a lot of the time, I can be looking for a certain thing but unless I notice it on a table, I could/usually would walk past.


----------



## purejurrasic

ratboy said:


> Another point to remember though PJ is that many animals are pre-sold and people use shows to pick those animals up. So well known breeders will always get a fair share of people arriving to pay for and pick up animals that they have already committed to.


Very fair point !

Still dont mean they should use cricket tubs, but I guess the more people that see it and compare to the good sellers, the better !


----------



## Athravan

I bought some very small geckos from someone who had blacked out all sides (except for top) of the cricket tubs... and was also using the new ones, so there is no perforation which leaves the rough edge. Even this is a step in the direction of security for a very small gecko as it blocked most of the light and movement out.


----------



## gaz

maybe if the abiding theme of buyers at shows was'nt "I'm gonna get money off by buying at a show" then the sellers would invest more in their displays.
For me the biggest reason for not being awfully bothered about shows is the constant streams of people wanting huge "show" discounts and/or tut tutting at prices. I sure as hell aint gonna get all motivated to make super duper animal friendly displays if thats the only comments I'm gonna get for my troubles(same animals after all).
Tis far easier for me to simply advertise a sensible discount on all sales in the week running up to any show and stay home,i dont get stressed and neither do my animals,anyone sharp enough to spot the discount can then get a "show" price for an unstressed animal from a breeders who isnt tired hungry and about to punch out the next asshole who trawls by with some caustic comment on prices etc.
As an example at one show some years back i took a couple of basins only to have someone trollop by and comment that "there was no way in hell they would pay that for an etb" fortunately i didnt bother commenting back,sometime later the same person was brought back by another herper to be told the diff' between northern shield etb's and basins.
So speaking as a professional, if you want nifty displays which could reduce sales then you can expect to pay for them or count a specialist boa breeder out of the shows altogether
regards gaz


----------



## stubeanz

for me this is an issue that deffinatly needs updating, im on the fence here as yes most people would only buy reptiles that they can see but also i think there should be some sort of update on the size of the tubs etc such as adult leos in crix tubs. 
i am going to make an effort to keep the reptiles in larger tubs at this years shows and also provide water for them, i probably wont have a hide in there as i agree that they need to be seen to be sold but i also belive they should at least have some kind of water bowl. 
although in years to come i might provide a hide if more people are going along these lines of providing more for the animals.
hopefully some more people may follow this lead this year as i know i saw some people at last years shows with water bowls (even milk lids) in their tubs.
stu


----------



## eddiemunt

Rory,

The FBH and REPTA have a very close relationship as Chris Newman is involved in both organisations and Chris is employed by REPTA. I am the director of REPTA and responsible for its spending. At the moment, given the lack of political sense on this forum, i cant justify financing any campaign to help the shows. There is another fact, that these people are apparently unaware of, and which i cant post on the forums. Nice to see you are still around.

Eddie


----------



## Crownan

eddiemunt said:


> Rory,
> 
> The FBH and REPTA have a very close relationship as Chris Newman is involved in both organisations and Chris is employed by REPTA. I am the director of REPTA and responsible for its spending. At the moment, given the lack of political sense on this forum, i cant justify financing any campaign to help the shows. There is another fact, that these people are apparently unaware of, and which i cant post on the forums. Nice to see you are still around.
> 
> Eddie


Do the very few people on this thread speak for the entire UK reptile community? :crazy:


----------



## Guest

beat me to it crownan


----------



## ratboy

So we are saying that show campaigns will no longer be financed by REPTA because 1 or 2 people mention that animals have died while being transported ?

Given that the stance has always been that the vast majority of keepers do not even use internet forums, it seems that members of this one have an incredible amount of power.


----------



## eddiemunt

Crownan said:


> Do the very few people on this thread speak for the entire UK reptile community? :crazy:


Crownan,
Nobody can speak for the entire reptile community but a few can unwittingly give a lot of of propaganda to the extremists because they can then quote hobbyists as publicly admitting there are problems.

Eddie.


----------



## Crownan

eddiemunt said:


> Crownan,
> Nobody can speak for the entire reptile community but a few can unwittingly give a lot of of propaganda to the extremists because they can then quote hobbyists as publicly admitting there are problems.
> 
> Eddie.


Is it not better to do something about it than just withdraw support because of this? So maybe its not done us any favours, but surely withdrawing support is going to fuel it further?

How about clearing up misconseptions? How about making things better?

I know little of polotics in this, I hate them, but it seems to be its cutting off ones nose to spite ones face. Sorry I feel this way.


----------



## Mason

eddiemunt said:


> Crownan,
> Nobody can speak for the entire reptile community but a few can unwittingly give a lot of of propaganda to the extremists because they can then quote hobbyists as publicly admitting there are problems.
> 
> Eddie.


 
I do not care who you are..that is a load of rubbish.

From your posts I can take it you think the better thing to do was pretend no animals dies in transit? Lie? 

If the antis want to continue kicking up a stink they can and will do so without bothering to quote the half dozen (or less) people from these boards that had deaths during transit!


----------



## eddiemunt

ratboy said:


> So we are saying that show campaigns will no longer be financed by REPTA because 1 or 2 people mention that animals have died while being transported ?
> 
> Given that the stance has always been that the vast majority of keepers do not even use internet forums, it seems that members of this one have an incredible amount of power.


 

Ratboy,

Any reptile keeper on any forum who makes statements publicly about real or imagined problems with the trade or hobby that can be quoted by extremists when campaigning against us can give us major problems because the extremists no longer have to make unproven allegations which are easy to deal with. To defend the hobby against public statements by hobbyists, we have to discredit the hobbyists involved which is divisive and gives the opposition a good laugh at our expense. It also leads to disagreement as we have seen,

Eddie.


----------



## Athravan

> Any reptile keeper on any forum who makes statements publicly about real or imagined problems with the trade or hobby that can be quoted by extremists when campaigning against us can give us major problems because the extremists no longer have to make unproven allegations which are easy to deal with.


I am sorry, but I believe myself that if there is a problem we should ALL be working to fix it. We can't just cover it up and hope the anti's don't find out about our problems. Every group in society has problems of some sort. The responsible thing to do is find solutions not to expect people to just never mention it. This website has thousands of active members - and this is just one forums in a pot of quite a few largeish forums, we may be the largest, but if you added all the members from all the forums together, you have a LOT of people...... you can't expect reasonabley for every member of the public who does not have the relevant information about the political situation, to know when to speak and when they need to keep quiet.

Eddie, you probably don't remember me, we haven't met for quite a number of years now, maybe as many as 6 or 7 years (my memory's pretty poor), but I have always respected you so please do not take this post in the wrong way, I am not trying to be offensive or "anti", I am trying to understand a problem. Have you read the hundreds of posts on this forum about bad pet shops and poor quality animals, even about bad/corrupt reptile rescue centers?

If the Anti's want fuel from members of the public discussing problems with the hobby, there are THOUSANDS of posts on this forum that will give it to them. I'm not joking, thousands. Why are the few honest posts disussing transportation issues a big deal? DEFRA clarly has felt that there has been a problem with the transportation of animals, otherwise they wouldn't have added the recent transportation license regulation for commercial transport.

If organisations are going to abandon campaigns because a few members of the public speak honestly about their views/experiences, we are all screwed, royally. The retailers are doomed, the breeders are doomed, the importers are doomed, the shows are doomed. Hell, we might as well give up now.

I sincerely hope that those with the power to make a difference politically are not going to abandon every cause on which reptile keepers speak negatively... if so, please let me know in advance so I can sell my business and give up right now... we need support, not condemnation. People will talk about their experiences and be honest, you can't conduct the worlds biggest coverup and expect every piece of info on a public forum to be positive.



> To defend the hobby against public statements by hobbyists, we have to discredit the hobbyists involved which is divisive and gives the opposition a good laugh at our expense. It also leads to disagreement as we have seen


No one here has actively tried to do anything to harm the hobby. From what I've seen people are actively trying to improve the hobby by improving all aspects of knowledge and animal welfare. 

If you are going to try and discredit hobbyists who campaign for the improvement of animal welfare... well, I am just disappointed, and upset, to be honest. How are people supposed to support an organisation that claims that it will actually discredit people to aid a coverup rather than tell the truth and try to solve problems?

Am I the only one here who feels unbearabley saddened by this? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?


----------



## Guest

Athravan said:


> I am sorry, but I believe myself that if there is a problem we should ALL be working to fix it. We can't just cover it up and hope the anti's don't find out about our problems. Every group in society has problems of some sort. The responsible thing to do is find solutions not to expect people to just never mention it. This website has thousands of active members - and this is just one forums in a pot of quite a few largeish forums, we may be the largest, but if you added all the members from all the forums together, you have a LOT of people...... you can't expect reasonabley for every member of the public who does not have the relevant information about the political situation, to know when to speak and when they need to keep quiet.
> 
> Eddie, you probably don't remember me, we haven't met for quite a number of years now, maybe as many as 6 or 7 years (my memory's pretty poor), but I have always respected you so please do not take this post in the wrong way, I am not trying to be offensive or "anti", I am trying to understand a problem. Have you read the hundreds of posts on this forum about bad pet shops and poor quality animals, even about bad/corrupt reptile rescue centers?
> 
> If the Anti's want fuel from members of the public discussing problems with the hobby, there are THOUSANDS of posts on this forum that will give it to them. I'm not joking, thousands. Why are the few honest posts disussing transportation issues a big deal? DEFRA clarly has felt that there has been a problem with the transportation of animals, otherwise they wouldn't have added the recent transportation license regulation for commercial transport.
> 
> If organisations are going to abandon campaigns because a few members of the public speak honestly about their views/experiences, we are all screwed, royally. The retailers are doomed, the breeders are doomed, the importers are doomed, the shows are doomed. Hell, we might as well give up now.
> 
> I sincerely hope that those with the power to make a difference politically are not going to abandon every cause on which reptile keepers speak negatively... if so, please let me know in advance so I can sell my business and give up right now... we need support, not condemnation. People will talk about their experiences and be honest, you can't conduct the worlds biggest coverup and expect every piece of info on a public forum to be positive.
> 
> 
> 
> No one here has actively tried to do anything to harm the hobby. From what I've seen people are actively trying to improve the hobby by improving all aspects of knowledge and animal welfare.
> 
> If you are going to try and discredit hobbyists who campaign for the improvement of animal welfare... well, I am just disappointed, and upset, to be honest. How are people supposed to support an organisation that claims that it will actually discredit people to aid a coverup rather than tell the truth and try to solve problems?
> 
> Am I the only one here who feels unbearabley saddened by this? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?


splendidly put !1 :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


----------



## ratboy

Athravan said:


> Am I the only one here who feels unbearabley saddened by this? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?


It makes you wonder quite what the point of the hobby is doesn't it. Hobbies are supposed to be about learning and improvement at doing something.


----------



## gaz

ratboy said:


> It makes you wonder quite what the point of the hobby is doesn't it. Hobbies are supposed to be about learning and improvement at doing something.


which is what we do..............we just dont like lots of rules to go with it
regards gaz
hope this is the right thread......kinda losing track now:lol2:


----------



## ratboy

gaz said:


> hope this is the right thread......kinda losing track now:lol2:


So am I now :lol2::lol2:


----------



## eddiemunt

*transportation*



Mason said:


> I do not care who you are..that is a load of rubbish.
> 
> I've spoken with the extremists, i've been a member of AA to see what i could find out about their agenda. I've had several meetings with the RSPCA. I know the chief of the RSPCA Inspectorate and spoke to him again today. I was fighting the antis as FBH committee member years ago. What do you know about fighting the extremists??
> 
> "From your posts I can take it you think the better thing to do was pretend no animals dies in transit? Lie? "
> 
> Thanks for that insult. No, you dont lie but you dont parade it all over the forums as if was a serious problem. What do you think gives the extremists the best result? Alleging there is a transportation problem which they cant prove or quoting the hobby as saying there is a transport problem???
> 
> "If the antis want to continue kicking up a stink they can and will do so without bothering to quote the half dozen (or less) people from these boards that had deaths during transit!


"

They will always "kick up a stink" as you put it. They dont quote individual statements, they quote " even hobbyists are saying there is a problem !!!!


Mason,

I'm glad you posted because you have brilliantly illustrated the reasons for my actions. I've spent years fighting for the shows at DEFRA and RSPCA meetings just to receive a post like yours. No more posts by me as you are obviously going to do a wonderful job.


----------



## toyah

Athravan said:


> If you are going to try and discredit hobbyists who campaign for the improvement of animal welfare... well, I am just disappointed, and upset, to be honest. How are people supposed to support an organisation that claims that it will actually discredit people to aid a coverup rather than tell the truth and try to solve problems?
> 
> Am I the only one here who feels unbearabley saddened by this? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?


No, I am in agreement with you, Christy - what a wonderful post, I am behind every word you've written.


----------



## eddiemunt

*transportation*



Mason said:


> I do not care who you are..that is a load of rubbish.
> 
> I've spoken with the extremists, i've been a member of AA to see what i could find out about their agenda. I've had several meetings with the RSPCA. I know the chief of the RSPCA Inspectorate and spoke to him again today. I was fighting the antis as FBH committee member years ago. What do you know about fighting the extremists??
> 
> "From your posts I can take it you think the better thing to do was pretend no animals dies in transit? Lie? "
> 
> Thanks for that insult. No, you dont lie but you dont parade it all over the forums as if was a serious problem. What do you think gives the extremists the best result? Alleging there is a transportation problem which they cant prove or quoting the hobby as saying there is a transport problem???
> 
> "If the antis want to continue kicking up a stink they can and will do so without bothering to quote the half dozen (or less) people from these boards that had deaths during transit!


"

They will always "kick up a stink" as you put it. They dont quote individual statements, they quote " even hobbyists are saying there is a problem !!!!


Mason,

I'm glad you posted because you have brilliantly illustrated the reasons for my actions. I've spent years fighting for the shows at DEFRA and RSPCA meetings just to receive a post like yours. No more posts by me as you are obviously going to do a wonderful job.


----------



## Guest

Eddie you should have gave us an intro into who you actually were before letting things upset you .its annoying for us keepers to keep hearing all the new rules etc. so some are bound to become annoyed with particular comments .
There is however a good reason for you to be here posting !


----------



## Young_Gun

eddiemunt said:


> Ratboy,
> 
> Any reptile keeper on any forum who makes statements publicly about real or imagined problems with the trade or hobby that can be quoted by extremists when campaigning against us can give us major problems because the extremists no longer have to make unproven allegations which are easy to deal with. To defend the hobby against public statements by hobbyists, we have to discredit the hobbyists involved which is divisive and gives the opposition a good laugh at our expense. It also leads to disagreement as we have seen,
> 
> Eddie.


Discredit hobbyists for telling the truth?

Fair play.


----------



## eddiemunt

*confusion*

Athravan,

I,m getting nowhere here because no one seens to understand me.
1). How do we defend the shows/hobby when the antis make the statement "even reptile hobbyists are saying publicly that there is a problem" without discrediting someone. If you can answer that, it would be helpful.


----------



## toyah

eddiemunt said:


> 1). How do we defend the shows/hobby when the antis make the statement "even reptile hobbyists are saying publicly that there is a problem" without discrediting someone. If you can answer that, it would be helpful.


By taking steps to improve upon the circumstances that have led people to say "there is a problem" in the first place? By providing some sort of education or statement on the perceived problem so people can learn and understand what the issue (or non-issue) is?


----------



## welshgaz

eddiemunt said:


> 1). How do we defend the shows/hobby when the antis make the statement "even reptile hobbyists are saying publicly that there is a problem" without discrediting someone. If you can answer that, it would be helpful.


Surely thats an easy question to answer but not necessarilyan easy question to put right...

Clearly the reptile community is aware that there is a problem and obviously wants to put it correct not only for the welfare of the reptiles but of there hobby. People are not simply sweeping it under the carpet.

Then work on policies that can be enforced to help the reptiles at the shows.


----------



## Athravan

eddiemunt said:


> Athravan,
> 
> I,m getting nowhere here because no one seens to understand me.
> 1). How do we defend the shows/hobby when the antis make the statement "even reptile hobbyists are saying publicly that there is a problem" without discrediting someone. If you can answer that, it would be helpful.


Defend the shows by being honest.

You can say "There have been some problems but we are addressing all aspects of animal welfare, have investigated reports fully and conclude that ..."

Everyone has problems  You can drive a cat across the country and kill it if there's a temperature spike. I have transported hundreds of reptiles from the EU and across the entire of the UK and never had a single loss, not one. There is no reason for losses if transportation is done correctly. Anyone transporting in bulk may well be liable to the conditions set in the DEFRA transportation license anyway.

Accidents happen. A temperature spike can kill any animal, it's horrible, but it can happen to a cat or a dog, a rat, a reptile. How many dogs die in hot cars every summer because of stupid owners? You don't see the world of dogs going down in smoke.

Blame individuals. If an individual does not take the correct precautions, then it is their fault. It is not the reptiles fault, it is not the hobbys fault. There are idiots in EVERY part of the world.

I really think that the photos of dead or dying reptiles in shops, the reports that people put up almost monthly of bad breeders/retailers/importers are far more damaging than people saying it is POSSIBLE for problems to occur in transporation if due care is not given. Of course it is.. anything's possible at the end of the day.

If you need to discredit someone then discredit the idiots who kill their reptiles through lack of animal welfare, quote dogs dying on a hot day as a comparison. Quote facts, statistics. The % of reptile deaths is minute compared to the amount actually transported a year. Contact reptile taxi, pet wheels and Gremlin Rides - they transport reptiles day in day out as a job. I've heard of no deaths on route. If they can transport reptiles full time with no ill effects, why can't everyone? Quote mammal statistics for long journeys. Quote all the people who transport correctly and have zero deaths as a counter. Go for positive, counteractive.

And don't let people get to you personally, this forum is full of free speech, and people will speak their mind freely. You can't take offense or abandon your beliefs/intentions because one or two people upset you, please... if the people who are at the top abandon the hobby then we're all screwed, so stick with it, you will find a lot more good people and help on these forums than bad.


----------



## Guest

eddiemunt said:


> Athravan,
> 
> I,m getting nowhere here because no one seens to understand me.
> 1). How do we defend the shows/hobby when the antis make the statement "even reptile hobbyists are saying publicly that there is a problem" without discrediting someone. If you can answer that, it would be helpful.


can you show us some of these quotes from the antis 

so we can go an argue with them and not you?


----------



## eddiemunt

*transportation*

Athravan,

Nice to speak to you again. I'll leave you to protect the shows and deal with any transportation issues. You may like to research the recent legislation regarding the transport of animals.

Good luck,
Eddie.


----------



## Guest

eddiemunt said:


> Athravan,
> 
> Nice to speak to you again. I'll leave you to protect the shows and deal with any transportation issues. You may like to research the recent legislation regarding the transport of animals.
> 
> Good luck,
> Eddie.


 
Good grief if this is the leader of any organisation i really do fear for our hobby if hes to stay in charge?if this is in fact who he says he is 

april fools perhaps ?

what a joke im glad im not a member of these societies


----------



## Mason

eddiemunt said:


> "
> 
> They will always "kick up a stink" as you put it. They dont quote individual statements, they quote " even hobbyists are saying there is a problem !!!!
> 
> 
> Mason,
> 
> I'm glad you posted because you have brilliantly illustrated the reasons for my actions. I've spent years fighting for the shows at DEFRA and RSPCA meetings just to receive a post like yours. No more posts by me as you are obviously going to do a wonderful job.


ok.

So rather than acknowledge that there is an issue and try to fix it you prefer we simply ignore it?

Perhaps if you wish to be taken seriously you should make an introduction post about who you are and what you do, so far we've only seen negativity from you.

I honestly cannot see how your "head in the sand" or "sweep it under the carpet" attitude will help. surely the problems needs to be recognised then tacked. Not ignored and lied about. You say we fuel the antis well I'd say that pretending a problem doesn't exsist is worse, more fuel for the fire.

If you've spent "years fighting" by trying to lie and mislead the parties against us then perhaps a new approach, one of honesty and actually trying to rectify things is the way forward.

How on earth can we hope to make a difference if wer won't tackle problems for fear of the antis using our acknowldgement of an issue against us? Surely ignoring it, hiding it will only make it worse which in the long run will only benefit one group and it won't be reptile keepers. To fix a problem you have to first acknowledge it exsists, then take steps to rectify it. Not try and cover it up and pretend it doesn't happen.


----------



## Crownan

Mason said:


> ok.
> 
> So rather than acknowledge that there is an issue and try to fix it you prefer we simply ignore it?
> 
> Perhaps if you wish to be taken seriously you should make an introduction post about who you are and what you do, so far we've only seen negativity from you.
> 
> I honestly cannot see how your "head in the sand" or "sweep it under the carpet" attitude will help. surely the problems needs to be recognised then tacked. Not ignored and lied about. You say we fuel the antis well I'd say that pretending a problem doesn't exsist is worse, more fuel for the fire.
> 
> If you've spent "years fighting" by trying to lie and mislead the parties against us then perhaps a new approach, one of honesty and actually trying to rectify things is the way forward.


I agree with mason here


----------



## Young_Gun

eddiemunt said:


> Athravan,
> 
> Nice to speak to you again. I'll leave you to protect the shows and deal with any transportation issues. You may like to research the recent legislation regarding the transport of animals.
> 
> Good luck,
> Eddie.


What will be more damning do you think?

'Reptile hobbyists agree to problems with shows and are discussing methods of rectifying the problems.....'

or

'REPTA director slates the hobbyists who look to him for guidance and admits he would 'discredit' any hobbyist speaking out about problems with reptile shows.....'


----------



## Athravan

eddiemunt said:


> Athravan,
> 
> Nice to speak to you again. I'll leave you to protect the shows and deal with any transportation issues. You may like to research the recent legislation regarding the transport of animals.
> 
> Good luck,
> Eddie.


Sure, just write me up a contract and put me on the payroll and I will try and deal with it, as you put it  Until then, I believe I am just a member of the public entitled to my opinion like everyone else... and you are the person who is employed to, and has the resources to, deal with it, as it were?

I thought I was helping by answering your question... clearly, you don't want/need our help.. you just want to not have to do it yourself.


----------



## Trice

purejurrasic said:


> The most worrying thing is that people will still buy from a 'name' that displays animals in cricket tubs!
> 
> After all, its the buyers that keep the hobby going.


Not sure if you noticed, but when emma and i had gotten out animals at Hamm, we instantly went and got a few of those larger tubs with folding lids with which to keep our animals in for transport, along with the substrate they were provided, sadly no hides, but were kept within the poly box, so darkness should have helped make them feel comfortable. But ours survived and were all fine.



eddiemunt said:


> Rory,
> 
> The FBH and REPTA have a very close relationship as Chris Newman is involved in both organisations and Chris is employed by REPTA. I am the director of REPTA and responsible for its spending. At the moment, given the lack of political sense on this forum, i cant justify financing any campaign to help the shows.* There is another fact, that these people are apparently unaware of, and which i cant post on the forums.* Nice to see you are still around.
> 
> Eddie


Oh cool! Another post stating there is info to be known, which should or should not be public knowledge, either way i'd rather not know of it. Because you are making it out to be a secret. What is there to gain in stating such facts? Seems like you're acting similar to a few others who are helping the hobby. " i know something you don't know"
Then pm people with it!




eddiemunt said:


> Athravan,
> 
> I,m getting nowhere here because no one seens to understand me.
> 1). How do we defend the shows/hobby when the antis make the statement "even reptile hobbyists are saying publicly that there is a problem" without discrediting someone. If you can answer that, it would be helpful.


You're getting no where because of alot of your statements.


----------



## PSGeckos

Really interesting post.

We did our first UK shows last year, we didn't have many leopard geckos to sell.
We used the folded lid Braplast boxes for travel and display which are 250MM LENGTH X 190 WIDE X 80MM DEEP, we would not use anything smaller. These are what we keep our hatchlings in as well incidently.








We also supplied milk carton lids for water, this is one thing we noticed at shows many sellers didn't supply. We always supplied heat for them.

I do think it would be a good idea for somekind of policing at shows, this surley can only be a positive thing?

We have brought things from Hamm in the past and were shocked by the size containers, Pete went so can't really comment on the conditions there.

Sarah


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

Eddie, 

I have to be honest here, politics have changed dramatically since the c v media days. The days of the political leadership posting statements, and saying that ‘this is the way forward’ has gone. It is classed nowadays as political scaremongering? The FBH does not hold much water anymore, REPTA means nothing to anyone, for they do not have a clue about who you are. We raised concerning issues and topics about REPTA last year, and no one knew who you were, certainly most retailers did not, which l thought was odd at the time, but of course they are only covered by default.

The keepers of the reptile community want a spokesman, and all you can do is come on here and condemn those who want to see something done about animal welfare???!! Well, that is fan ‘bloody’ tastic! To boot, the suggestion that leadership will discredit any hobbyist who dares to tell the truth is more ammo to the antis than anyone else has given it in a long while.

There is more political sense on this forum than you are currently displaying to the readership of this thread as the Director of REPTA and as such the employer of Chris Newman, who is viewed by many as being the political figurehead!

There are an awful amount of new age political keepers, this l know, l wrote about it before, and was slammed by the veteran keepers. Back then it was not about having a go at veteran keepers, but acknowledging that keepers of today are more clued up about the politics surrounding the industry.

I think the biggest problem we have today is that there is more of a focus on slamming the likes of the RSPCA and the opposition than there is in looking at the animal welfare issues, and these are the issues and topics we need to address. It may be said we need to get our own house in order, before we start poking holes in other people’s residences.

[I am against the political charity of the RSPCA, yes that is a fact, but l always have been]

Hiding the facts that concern the industry and all aspects that surround it actually do more harm than good. I am not sorry when l write this - but it is a fact, WE DO HAVE problems in the shows, but they need addressing and if they can not be addressed properly, then yes, perhaps shows should be stopped. But when keepers address the problems, this is always seen as a bonus, for it means they have recognised that this industry does have its flaws, that we are not perfect. So let us stop pretending that we are fantastic, we are not. 

This is the year to be addressing animal welfare, codes of practice, not sodding about hiding more from the keeper. We need to make things happen, rather than react to things that have happened because we tried to pretend they were not problems. l am so genuinely pleased to see the responses to this thread as it shows that this is the keeper of today, and you need to learn how to address them, not walk back in and think that political prowess and old ways will make people listen. 

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers' Lobby: PKA


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## Crownan

*Applause*


----------



## Guest

: victory:


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## LFBP-NEIL

I am a bit shocked at the way this thread has gone!

A lot of sensible posts and some I am still trying to get my head round.

The Reptile and Exotic Pet Trade Association, as the name implies is an association of reptile and exotic traders. Except we as traders have no involvement with them apart from indirectly funding them via our wholesalers.

I have seen a lot of good posts on here from known traders, particularly one from Scott W (not sure if it was this thread) about how as there are only a handfull of reptile wholesalers isnt it about time this industry became self regulating and cut off the supply to the bad names and Also In the posts from Athravan in this thread.

I think those that are directly involved with the "reptile industry" should have our own trade association (that we can all participate in), perhaps known and verified traders could be given a "traders only" section of this forum so that we can thrash any ideas out and air concerns we have amongst ourselves.


----------



## Maureen Collinson

Hi Pink. 

I have only just logged back on with spare time for a catch up, and find lots of posts have been made since I took a break away directly after reading Eddies post directed straight at me. It hit hard as I have cared deeply for Eddie for years now, so had to walk away rather than post in haste something I might later regret, from feeling he had stabbed me for caring, which is what I have been about for for years with the rescue work I did 24/7.

Anyhow, as your's is the last post I have read here, I will start with comment's on yours. 

An excellent post,and the suggestion of a traders forums for the reasons you give would be a great step forum, and so easy to set up. Your own password in order to ensure only those entitled get into the forum and your away. I hope you get this one off the ground so to speak.

Mo. 

PS Reading back now in order to answer others.


----------



## Guest

Oh great divide and conquer eh 

dont think so


----------



## Maureen Collinson

eddiemunt said:


> Maureen,
> 
> The only way to achieve your goals will be to ban all shows, which is what the extremists want. Now the subject of transportation deaths has been introduced to the show scene so will be another target for the extremists. No, you have to campaign for the banning of all reptile shows. So go for it, i will not fight against,
> 
> Eddie Munt.








eddiemunt said:


> Maureen,
> 
> The only way to achieve your goals will be to ban all shows, which is what the extremists want. Now the subject of transportation deaths has been introduced to the show scene so will be another target for the extremists. No, you have to campaign for the banning of all reptile shows. So go for it, i will not fight against,
> 
> Eddie Munt.



Eddie,

I'm sorry to say you are sounding just like some committee members of a certain club that I have banged my head against a wall over since, let me see, ah yes 1994 was the time when I first started pointing things out that were not in the animals best interest, but I was ignored year after year. That means I have been trying for 14 years now to get things improved, so I can't be accused of being impatient thats for sure. 

If you are truly for the welfare of the animals Eddie, then why are you protesting and turning nasty against the people here that care about them. That does not tally with what you would have us believe. I can understand that all this on an open forum won't be doing the hobby any good, but then Eddie, surely it should never have reached this stage if the guys like yourself had dealt with matters of concern via email, phone and meetings with show/fair holders, etc, before it reached this stage. Protests have been going on now for a number of years from both sides, so a lot of time has passed by when these things could have been discussed at length elsewhere and ironed out for the good of all that mattered.

As a person that has always cared more for the animals than money, it is my personal opinion that to knowingly leave things unaltered even when it is known that all is not right just because we are worried about us giving an inch and someone else taking the mile, is so wrong in this instance. We are discussing the welfare of live animals that are helpless to defend themselves for goodness sakes Eddie.

I'm sorry to say that I can see now how you have money in your pocket, whilst I have none. To keep quiet in order to not give the opposition a chance to step in at the cost of said animals is disgusting, and by your very own outbursts here, you personally have done possibly more damage than anyone else, as you are one of the front runners out there with REPTA, and have now let the opposition know for a fact that you would be happy to leave the animals welfare on the back burner rather than admit that everything is not sweet. 

Guess what Eddie, Only my opinion again but I think you have just banged more nails in the coffee than anyone else put together as you have now proved your not to be trusted when it comes down to the reptiles welfare at all, or at least that is how your outbursts are coming across. Such a shame too. In fact I am finding it hard to believe it's really you, and not someone else using your name, as you used to care one hell of a lot. I think the years of fighting for everyones rights to keep their reptiles has taken it's toll on you Eddie, just as it has me, and I always thought that the older you got the more tolerant you became. Don't know what happened with us too there Eddie. 

I am truly saddened that we are having words like this with each other.

Maureen.


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## babyburm

complete idiots, like many have said what wild caught i didnt see any, and i was looking trust me, and if they knew anything about reptiles they would know the small cages are to help make the animals feel secure and safe and less stressed. There as bad as th RSPCA


----------



## Maureen Collinson

SteveL said:


> Oh great divide and conquer eh
> 
> dont think so



Steve,

As traders and shop keepers the good ones are being harmed by the bad, so surely it's not wrong for them to have their own forum in order to discuss the problem amongst themselves. The issue of bad shops is appearing all of the time and as such says to me that the general public are not able to do much about it, but a group of good traders/shop keepers could, if they use what they have available. I'm sure I don't need to spell it out, but they have got a chance of altering things for the better, as they hold a few aces in their hands, and it's therefore in their interest to just have them discussing the way forward surely? They could always bring forward any thoughts that they would like to action to see what the general public thinks, once thy had thrashed it out themselves. 

Mo.


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## Nerys

babyburm said:


> complete idiots, like many have said what wild caught i didnt see any, and i was looking trust me, and if they knew anything about reptiles they would know the small cages are to help make the animals feel secure and safe and less stressed. There as bad as th RSPCA


bollocks there ARE WC at the EU shows, and i have seen WC at some uk show also... you just have to learn to recognise them tbh.. 

and unless you asked EVERY person there selling an animal, where it had come from.. and who is to say they are telling the truth, how would you know? yes, SOME wc look like wc, but not all do.. take CF royals for instance.

like it or not, there is a good number of WILD CAUGHT animals sold at the european show, but then the same could be said for Europe as a whole, there is a lot of WC stock, both mammals and reptiles...

and stuff this.. under the carpet shit.. out in the open.. we only look like fools if we try otherwise...

small cages yes, plastic coffins no..

(gosh.. now what does that remind me of..)

sure slate me for it eddie and co, but in the same way the public does not like battery cages.. it will not like 200 leo's stacked in cricket tubs.

and yes, last year, i had hides and water in the much larger display boxes i used. its not that hard really..

N


----------



## Maureen Collinson

purejurrasic said:


> The most worrying thing is that people will still buy from a 'name' that displays animals in cricket tubs!
> 
> I can think of more than one show last year, where there were a number of respected hobby breeders, some here on RFUK, who invested in good size tubs, water and hides, temp equipment etc, who sat and watched crowds of buyers swamping other tables with piles of cricket tubs on top of each other under strong lamps.
> 
> My respect to those sellers who took the effort and didnt sell out to the pile em high club and heres hoping that buyers start to take care where they buy their next animal from.
> 
> After all, its the buyers that keep the hobby going.



A very valid post, and something that needs to be addressed for obvious reasons. Perhaps start with an appeal on the different forums for buyers if not wishing to avoid the 'biggies', then at least protest at how the animals are boxed. That would be a step in the right direction, and animals already ordered and just awaiting collection could be in better containers if the buyer insisted on such when ordering. The buyer has full power over the sellers at the end of the day, so they can get things altered for the better. Please all take note of the sellers that have shown care for the animals they are selling, and reward them for caring by buying from them. Try to resist the temptation of buying ones where the buyer has not showed care for the animal that he/she hopes to make money from, and tell them why, and walk away and buy elsewhere. If many of you can do that, it would force the issue and thus help ensure more caring sellers.

You may have to pay a little more for reptiles that are housed better, but surely if you are a caring person, you will be happy to do that, and a good container can come in handy many times over, so won't be a waste of money anyway.

Mo.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Thank you Maureen for putting into words exactly my feelings. (RE: traders working together)

I as a trader am worried that my "Industry" is under heavy fire, yet I have no "industry" association to look to, I have REPTA, I believe i fund REPTA indirectly, buti have no input on them / from them and this worries me. 

As a Business I have the federation of small business, the local chamber of commerce, but no specific association related to this industry that I can look to.

I am not knocking REPTA I have "heard" of some very good work they do behind the scenes, but to me as a trader they are more of a political fighting force rather than an association that I belong to.

I understand Rory is working on a Pro keepers alliance - retail aid, I am hoping that this may be what the trade is looking for.

But in the Meantime (message to MOds &T-BO) is it possible to have a Traders only section ?


----------



## Nerys

would have added this as an edit, but ah well, pc locked me out.

no doubt this will have some of you gnashing your teeth and stamping up and down, but eh well.. i am not known for being diplomatic am i..

on the other hand, at least i say what i think. and not what i think others might prefer to hear.

whilst i am "putting nails in the coffin.. how about the deaths AT shows last year.. eh.. how about the IHS show held in a totally unsuitable venue, resulting in the death from over heating of at least two animals within the venue during the day. where were the vets then eddie? where were the people acting on behalf of the animals welfare eddie? 

why should i, as private hobbiest, think this is acceptable?

why should i, as a reptile keeper.. CONDONE this by keeping quiet? 

F**k that. i have spoken out before and i will do so again.

if we cannot ensure that the welfare of the animals is not taken into consideration, then we should not be trying to get people to give us money for them at what becomes a glorified animal car boot sale. breeders fair? hobbyiest get together? for some yes, for others, a way of making money from animals. with so many commerical sellers posing as "private hobbiest" these days.. its a laugh at times it really is/

will you like my answer, nah.. course not.. but i am as entitled to it as you are to yours.

i, and many of my fellow keepers, do NOT think all is rosy, but at least we WANT to do something about it, instead of being too scared of the antis to be man enough to own the problem in the first place.

what has repta done for us this last year, this last two years, this last 5 years.

chris, what have you actively done on behalf of the reptile community in the last year... i know about other cases you work on, but this is the REPTILE and exotic pet trade association.. where are the codes of conduct for reptile keepers? why are they not being pushed? so WHAT if the "other side" does not have them, that should be an advantage to us, we can get in there first, and show we are concerned about their welfare too..

the people who pay repta, do you get a breakdown of what your money does? where it goes? what causes it is being used for? the progress of such things? i know from PKL workings some of what goes on, and not all of that impresses me at all times i must admit, i sometimes watch the evidence and think "our team" is fighting on the wrong side tbh...

pink, if you buy from wholesalers, you fund repta, and therefore some of your money, as eddie has said, pays chris newman. so.. when was the last time you got told what they are doing for you. let me guess. there was no last time right, how can there be a last time when there was no first time.

anyway... no doubt this will be ignored, or glossed over, but lets face it, people have been asking for a long time what exactly do we get for the moneys paid out to people like REPTA and chris..

its much easier isn't it, to say

"oh handbags in the air.. lets all turn our backs because a bunch of forum users DARES to disagree with us..."

~cue flounce off and declare we are all ungrateful and obviously agree with the antis~

whats up, it didn't go your way, so you don' wanna' play no more... 

god give me strength, if thats the calibre of the so called leadership..

Nerys


----------



## Guest

pink said:


> But in the Meantime (message to MOds &T-BO) is it possible to have a Traders only section ?


there is a suggestion forum


----------



## Maureen Collinson

toyah said:


> No, I am in agreement with you, Christy - what a wonderful post, I am behind every word you've written.



Me too Toyah. 

Excellent posts Christy. :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:

Mo. :no1:


----------



## koganinja

after seeing and reading alot of posts i dont think any party wants to lie or give up and at the same time give the anti lot ammuntion yes i agree we need to address problems but when we speak about it surly there must be a more tactfull way of doing this ?

when we post a problem it is viewbul by all includeing guests to the forums i.e anti's so in my eyes this is what need doing 

yes we should rectfi problems this is obviuse 

yes the new reptile keeper is more switched on that is human nature its called evolvment 

yes we should not just bang a problem out in the open so every man jack and his dog can see it and quote this hobby on it later on to the wrong peaple but find a more tactifull way of doing it i.e 200-500 posts and you can access this part of the site eliminating joe blogs anti from snooping about it wont stop it but its a start and going later on there is this problem in the reptile hobby hang them for it this is what the quoted on rfuk 

rember they dont care about the keeper breeder ect ect in there eyes we are all eqaul begginer to expert wich means in there eye we are all ambsadores for this hobby you dot need to lie you just need to think of what you whant to say but mainly how you say it

i can vouch for iddie with my own eyes and ears that guys none stop doing leters and talking to peps on the phone regards these maters

ninja


----------



## Maureen Collinson

I do not therefore appreciate snide comments. Get me some facts on deaths before you act as if you are an expert.

Eddie Munt.

*Not a nice comment Eddie.  

As it happens I was reading on another forum, a post by one of the owners of many dead animals from one box, and if one is to believe the owner, then he stated that the pm came back as saying the animals had died as a result of overheating on this occasion. *


I will make no further comments and wiil advise our organisations to no longer spend any resources trying to save shows. 

Eddie Munt.​ 
Rory,

The FBH and REPTA have a very close relationship as Chris Newman is involved in both organisations and Chris is employed by REPTA. I am the director of REPTA and responsible for its spending. At the moment, given the lack of political sense on this forum, i cant justify financing any campaign to help the shows. There is another fact, that these people are apparently unaware of, and which i cant post on the forums. Nice to see you are still around.

Eddie
​ 

Crownan,
Nobody can speak for the entire reptile community but a few can unwittingly give a lot of of propaganda to the extremists because they can then quote hobbyists as publicly admitting there are problems.

Eddie.
​
*

Eddie, 

To say I am shocked by the above is an understatement. The more you post, the worse it gets. :sad:

* Ratboy,

Any reptile keeper on any forum who makes statements publicly about real or imagined problems with the trade or hobby that can be quoted by extremists when campaigning against us can give us major problems because the extremists no longer have to make unproven allegations which are easy to deal with. To defend the hobby against public statements by hobbyists, we have to discredit the hobbyists involved which is divisive and gives the opposition a good laugh at our expense. It also leads to disagreement as we have seen,

Eddie.
*WHY? 

Why would you wish to discredit a hobbyist that is speaking up for the animals and admitting what is wrong Eddie? 

Sorry to say that your comment is reading that it is your self that is concerned about having egg on the face, not the hobbyist, who surely is doing right by the animals in question by speaking up when they know there is something wrong. 

You could continue saying there's nothing wrong Eddie, but for goodness sake, the opposition have some top named vets on their side that DO treat and deal with reptiles in the course of their daily lives, and even in some cases keep them themselves, and so can give a true picture of what's what, that would be accepted any day over your word, so surely covering up is the worst way to go. 
* Nice to speak to you again. I'll leave you to protect the shows and deal with any transportation issues. You may like to research the recent legislation regarding the transport of animals.

Good luck,
Eddie.
​


*Eddie,

That comes over as throwing your toys out of the pram. Well out of order there. Christy was being polite, and putting forward some very good, honest and much needed to be said posts, and I salute her for it. :notworthy: I don't know Christy at all, but WOW, am I impressed by the **way **she conducts herself. Now speaking for just myself here, I could read Chrsity's posts all day long, and take note, as she has a skill that both you and I lack at present of getting people to take note of facts without being offensive in any way. Perhaps we should both try harder. It could reap more reward at the end of the day!


Mo. 
*


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Nerys said:


> pink, if you buy from wholesalers, you fund repta, and therefore some of your money, as eddie has said, pays chris newman. so.. when was the last time you got told what they are doing for you. let me guess. there was no last time right, how can there be a last time when there was no first time.


The first time I ever heard about REPTA was when I recived a letter from a wholesaler advising that 10p was going to be added to certain items that they sell to fund REPTA, I have since never heard any more about them, Only what i have "heard on the grapevine" so i can not comment on if they do a good job or not as I just do not know, despite having indirectly donated many many thousands of pounds to them (assuming they do recieve the funds that were set out in the letter? - who knows?)


----------



## koganinja

pink said:


> The first time I ever heard about REPTA was when I recived a letter from a wholesaler advising that 10p was going to be added to certain items that they sell to fund REPTA, I have since never heard any more about them, Only what i have "heard on the grapevine" so i can not comment on if they do a good job or not as I just do not know, despite having indirectly donated many many thousands of pounds to them (assuming they do recieve the funds that were set out in the letter? - who knows?)


lets just say repta defo dont always get the funds i refraze virtualy never get the funds only from a selct few and i mean few its bad enuf that repta work does not get seen has it is all behind the scina and on the phone and leters direct to top peps who are against us never mind haveing to fund itself :whip:


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

koganinja said:


> lets just say repta defo dont always get the funds i refraze virtualy never get the funds only from a selct few and i mean few its bad enuf that repta work does not get seen has it is all behind the scina and on the phone and leters direct to top peps who are against us never mind haveing to fund itself :whip:


So those that should pay REPTA, do they not do so then?

I was under the impression that it was the livefood wholesalers that paid REPTA, is this not the case?

I am curious you see, l did raise this as an issue back in October of last year on this forum.

R


----------



## Young_Gun

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> So those that should pay REPTA, do they not do so then?
> 
> I was under the impression that it was the livefood wholesalers that paid REPTA, is this not the case?
> 
> I am curious you see, l did raise this as an issue back in October of last year on this forum.
> 
> R


Monkfields for sure pay REPTA a % on sales.


----------



## koganinja

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> So those that should pay REPTA, do they not do so then?
> 
> I was under the impression that it was the livefood wholesalers that paid REPTA, is this not the case?
> 
> I am curious you see, l did raise this as an issue back in October of last year on this forum.
> 
> R


pm'd you mate


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

I would be interested to know what wholesalers are not handing over funds to REPTA (hence the need for a trade only section)


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

koganinja said:


> pm'd you mate


And l received it, but do you not think, that perhaps that needs to be addressed?

R


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

pink said:


> I would be interested to know what wholesalers are not handing over funds to REPTA (hence the need for a trade only section)


 
By Jove Pink Ol Boy! 

Spiffo!

I think you have a point .............. ?


----------



## koganinja

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> And l received it, but do you not think, that perhaps that needs to be addressed?
> 
> R


not by me and you know who you need to speak to about that any way


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

Hi, 

Not really no.

I am not in communications with those that pay REPTA, surely that is you guys at REPTA?

R


----------



## Maureen Collinson

As much as I am saddened by Eddie's attitude on here at present, I can fully understand his frustration, and can also accept and believe that Eddie's dipping into his own pocket to help fund everything. 
It would not be the first time either as that's Eddie. I have been witness to this first hand too on at least two occasions. One being when I first met Eddie some years back after someone placed an appeal on the open forum for help for me due to the rescue work I was doing. Eddie travelled a great distance and stayed for several hours. At the end of the day when Eddie was leaving he tried to hand me a wad of notes from his own personal money to help me out. I was so very grateful and touched by by this action, but at the time wished to continue with supporting myself, as I was able to, but I truly appreciated this lovely man's gesture, and it is another reason why I am so saddened by what is occurring now on this thread, but could not sit back and let Eddie pound me for what I believe in now, and always have. 

If it is proved out that Eddie is being short changed by wholesalers in general, then I'm sure that at least the shop owners on here would back him to the hilt in getting what should rightfully be coming REPTA's way.

Mo.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

Hi Maureen, 

The problem as l see it, is this.

REPTA does not have a direct day to day working relationship with the retailers, as such if Eddie is being short changed, then the argument is not with retailers - but it is with those that the original agreement was made with and for.

If perhaps retailers [ as in shops] were in fact involved, perhaps things would be different, however, with the concensus as it stands upon some issues, l can still see there being problems.

If REPTA is being short changed, then REPTA need to address this issue directly with those offending.

Why should those whom have not been given any kind of communications from REPTA, want to back them? By this l am referring to the shops?

They are not paying REPTA, they are offered an indirect service from those whom they buy off.

The other question is this?

What are they paying REPTA for? And what are they not getting for them to slacken off on their payments?

R


----------



## koganinja

im sure it would put him in a beter mood mo reading your post the prob what edd finds on these forums is that it so hard to speak politics on here due to peps reading the words and not understandeing how the words are being said 

like for example 
you make a sarcarstic point and type it like a joke no one gets the joke and thinks you being seruise


what the point is im trying to make some things are just to hard and indepth to type into words but easy to speak if the peps were there in front of you has i stated i think the point edd was trying to make and this is what i think from speaking to him he was trying to say yes we do need to say what we think and be tell the truth and adress problems in the hobby but we need to be more tactfull about it and more carefull about how we word things the main problem with alot of forums any body can read it and loike the newspaper do the anti will twist what we post if they see it benfical to them 

the options i think we need to put a system in place like the over 18 thread but more stringent to make it harder for none or new members to see what we are discuseing has i stated earler 500 posts or more and over 18 then allow access to this section or have a vouching system so peps can vouch for a new member to have access 

this is what i think and i maybe wrong


----------



## koganinja

repta ARE talking to the offending partys has we speak and have been over the last few weeks i cannot comment any more ref this topic has i am NOT repta and dont want to say the wrong things


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

Hi, 

So when you say this : 

"the options i think we need to put a system in place like the over 18 thread but more stringent to make it harder for none or new members to see what we are discuseing has i stated earler 500 posts or more and over 18 then allow access to this section or have a vouching system so peps can vouch for a new member to have access"

So you mean a covering up of informations yes, available only to those that are directly affected perhaps ............. ?

Just wondering, l try and write it in the way l want it to be read.

I am writing this with a serious look upon my face, but a leer and a glint in my left eye, with a small ironic questioning look in my right. 

Hope that clarifies.

R


----------



## Guest

like a referred forum where we can discuss things? 

only garanteerd reptile people can enter once trusted


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

SteveL said:


> like a referred forum where we can discuss things?
> 
> only garanteerd reptile people can enter once trusted


Mmm, once trusted?


----------



## koganinja

did you notice the bit NONE memebers i think the bit that is worded wrong is new memeber i have done it my self on forums were they will let you not see any thing till you sign up so you sign up have a nose never go there again but you haver info mthat you need for what ever

plus all the peps that are here talking all seem to be heavy posters on the site hence why i said 500 18+ keeps the kids out and stupid comments and keep some not all of the antis out but hopeing by 500 posts we would know who they are and the way of letting newer members in is by vouching from another memeber so we know it is not some one just haveing a nose i.e anti's


----------



## koganinja

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Mmm, once trusted?


thats is life no one can be trusted all man can be bought and manipulated


----------



## toyah

I think if there is to be a trade forum it makes sense to limit it in the way Athravan set out in another post:

online/bricks and mortars store owners
registered self employed reptile/exotic business owners
PSL holders
Employee of one of the above
Employees of reptile related companies/businesses 
People involved in organisations such as charities, rescues or the committee of hobbyist groups

The problem with just demanding a post limit is that any anti wanting to see the "secret forum" just has to post LOL ROFL NICE SNAKE 500 times in 500 different threads to get access (and I am sure they would) ... and lots of people who could make valuable contributions will simply never get that high a post count to join up.

If it's information that is relevant to everyone, then it should be openly posted, but I can see a good argument for "trade" business that is not relevant to the ordinary fancier being limited.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

Well said Toyah, 

If it affects the reptile community, then enough of the covering up, just put it out there.

As Toyah has said, you want to get into something, you will, its irrelevant what post number it is.

And besides, what are we hiding to want to cover it up anyway?


----------



## ratboy

The problem is that all an 'anti' has to do is post 500 times and we are back exactly where we are now.

I too have known Eddie for a number of years from the days of CView, have met him on a couple of occasions at FBH conferences and was over the moon when Koga posted that he was going to start posting on here ... at last some serious political debate with someone at the front of the political side of the hobby. But where is he ? 

The guy posting on here today tells us that anyone found to be telling the truth about serious issues will be discredited... to me that means made out to be lying. Is this how the political side of our hobby works now ? is this how it has always worked ?

The guy posting on here today tells us that REPTA are no longer going to fight for the continuance of shows if people dare to talk about improving animal welfare at them or express concern about some of them dying ... if that was meant as a joke... I would suggest that maybe some money needs to be spent on humourous delivery courses.

I really could not believe what I was reading....

The answer is not to hide things away or make them difficult to read, the answer is to find out what the problems are and fix the bloody things.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

ratboy said:


> The problem is that all an 'anti' has to do is post 500 times and we are back exactly where we are now.
> 
> I too have known Eddie for a number of years from the days of CView, have met him on a couple of occasions at FBH conferences and was over the moon when Koga posted that he was going to start posting on here ... at last some serious political debate with someone at the front of the political side of the hobby. But where is he ?
> 
> The guy posting on here today tells us that anyone found to be telling the truth about serious issues will be discredited... to me that means made out to be lying. Is this how the political side of our hobby works now ? is this how it has always worked ?
> 
> The guy posting on here today tells us that REPTA are no longer going to fight for the continuance of shows if people dare to talk about improving animal welfare at them or express concern about some of them dying ... if that was meant as a joke... I would suggest that maybe some money needs to be spent on humourous delivery courses.
> 
> I really could not believe what I was reading....
> 
> The answer is not to hide things away or make them difficult to read, the answer is to find out what the problems are and fix the bloody things.


Steve, 

Well said, as you know l agree.

For the last few days l have been sadly disillusioned with the politics on the pro side. And tbh after reading this today, it has just made me angrier, that all the work we are trying to pull off for the benefit of the communities is basically a waste of time?

So welcome back ten years ago then!


----------



## Trice

koganinja said:


> after seeing and reading alot of posts i dont think any party wants to lie or give up and at the same time give the anti lot ammuntion yes i agree we need to address problems but when we speak about it surly there must be a more tactfull way of doing this ?
> 
> when we post a problem it is viewbul by all includeing guests to the forums i.e anti's so in my eyes this is what need doing
> 
> yes we should rectfi problems this is obviuse
> 
> yes the new reptile keeper is more switched on that is human nature its called evolvment
> 
> yes we should not just bang a problem out in the open so every man jack and his dog can see it and quote this hobby on it later on to the wrong peaple but find a more tactifull way of doing it i.e 200-500 posts and you can access this part of the site eliminating joe blogs anti from snooping about it wont stop it but its a start and going later on there is this problem in the reptile hobby hang them for it this is what the quoted on rfuk
> 
> rember they dont care about the keeper breeder ect ect in there eyes we are all eqaul begginer to expert wich means in there eye we are all ambsadores for this hobby you dot need to lie you just need to think of what you whant to say but mainly how you say it
> 
> i can vouch for iddie with my own eyes and ears that guys none stop doing leters and talking to peps on the phone regards these maters
> 
> ninja


I guess we're not going to get this information you promised us that would blow us away and so on? Why am i not surprised?



koganinja said:


> TSKA Rory Matier said:
> 
> 
> 
> So those that should pay REPTA, do they not do so then?
> 
> I was under the impression that it was the livefood wholesalers that paid REPTA, is this not the case?
> 
> I am curious you see, l did raise this as an issue back in October of last year on this forum.
> 
> R
> 
> 
> 
> pm'd you mate
Click to expand...

Oh wow! Keeping facts and information secret? or should i say false facts? Come on now..... At least let the general public know what it is that this soooooo important information is so that we can at least know it eh?



koganinja said:


> im sure it would put him in a beter mood mo reading your post the prob what edd finds on these forums is that it so hard to speak politics on here due to peps reading the words and not understandeing how the words are being said
> 
> like for example
> you make a sarcarstic point and type it like a joke no one gets the joke and thinks you being seruise
> 
> 
> what the point is im trying to make some things are just to hard and indepth to type into words but easy to speak if the peps were there in front of you has i stated i think the point edd was trying to make and this is what i think from speaking to him he was trying to say yes we do need to say what we think and be tell the truth and adress problems in the hobby but we need to be more tactfull about it and more carefull about how we word things the main problem with alot of forums any body can read it and loike the newspaper do the anti will twist what we post if they see it benfical to them
> 
> the options i think we need to put a system in place like the over 18 thread but more stringent to make it harder for none or new members to see what we are discuseing has i stated earler 500 posts or more and over 18 then allow access to this section or have a vouching system so peps can vouch for a new member to have access
> 
> this is what i think and i maybe wrong


Why should we make a section for this kind of information? surely the shows are usually to the general public. As are these forums. Why should we hide any information like people like you do? IF theres an issue why not state it here so that others can help tackle it? such as the conditions at shows? Surely tackling it would show to the 'reptile keeping antis' (i will not just call them 'antis' as you state it, because to some of them, people like you are the 'antis') Anyway, surely tackling it would show to them that people know about the issue and are attempting to fix it? rather than trying to cover it up in an attempt to keep something everyone knows about a private issue? 

This 'vouching' system you speak of, if left to people like you would only allow your associates and people you trust into it, therefore only a handful of people would be gaining access, where as this is a PUBLIC forum. The forum is here to bring reptile people together, either to get help and advice, to show off what they have, to trade, or simple to converse with eachother. The 18+ section is there simply because some of the content there isnt acceptable to people below that age. It isnt there to keep information private from the general public..


Before a few days ago, when koganinja mentioned eddie munt, i had no clue as to who this person was that he was sooooooooo happily bragging that he knew him and so on. So i am unaware of the work that eddie has carried out and so on, but what i do know is i have formed an opinion on this person based by what has been said in here, and to me it looks like a child throwing his toys out of the pram basically because of him not agreeing with a few posts made by some people.

Now, i forgot what else i was going to say, so will go back to seeing what posts i had missed.


----------



## Trice

SteveL said:


> like a referred forum where we can discuss things?
> 
> only garanteerd reptile people can enter once trusted


How would you gain trust?
And surely the majority of people would think it a waste of time and not bother? You wouldnt gain support etc by hiding away from the world. You would just get the same views over and over. Seems silly to me.



koganinja said:


> did you notice the bit NONE memebers i think the bit that is worded wrong is new memeber i have done it my self on forums were they will let you not see any thing till you sign up so you sign up have a nose never go there again but you haver info mthat you need for what ever
> 
> plus all the peps that are here talking all seem to be heavy posters on the site hence why i said 500 18+ keeps the kids out and stupid comments and keep some not all of the antis out but hopeing by 500 posts we would know who they are and the way of letting newer members in is by vouching from another memeber so we know it is not some one just haveing a nose i.e anti's


but WHY? why have something like that? I dont get it.



ratboy said:


> The problem is that all an 'anti' has to do is post 500 times and we are back exactly where we are now.
> 
> I too have known Eddie for a number of years from the days of CView, have met him on a couple of occasions at FBH conferences and was over the moon when Koga posted that he was going to start posting on here ... at last some serious political debate with someone at the front of the political side of the hobby. But where is he ?
> 
> The guy posting on here today tells us that anyone found to be telling the truth about serious issues will be discredited... to me that means made out to be lying. Is this how the political side of our hobby works now ? is this how it has always worked ?
> 
> The guy posting on here today tells us that REPTA are no longer going to fight for the continuance of shows if people dare to talk about improving animal welfare at them or express concern about some of them dying ... if that was meant as a joke... I would suggest that maybe some money needs to be spent on humourous delivery courses.
> 
> I really could not believe what I was reading....
> *
> The answer is not to hide things away or make them difficult to read, the answer is to find out what the problems are and fix the bloody things.*


I agree there.


----------



## koganinja

omg you lot your worse than the papers for twisting things 

WHAT IM SAYING IS EVERY THING WHAT WE TYPE AND PUT OUT CAN AND WILL BE TWISTED IN SOME SHAPE OR FORM BY THE ANTI LOT :bash:

I AM NOT SAYING HIDE AND LIE AND STUFF JUST BECAREFULL AND LETS MAKE IT HARDER FOR THEM AND KEEP OUR HOBBY SAFE AND IMPROVE IT AT THE SAME TIME

no wonder edd got miffed of


----------



## koganinja

trice you love quoting me but looking at it you think there may be a resone why i cant put the facts up has ive been told not has there are to many things afoot at the moment and if i post the wrong thing up it could cause a :censor: storm for us so site you self down and have a cupa and dont concern you self at this moment in time with what i do thank you


oh by the look of it trice im a anti to you has you keeping getting on my back about it lets just say it is a good job im not a anti


----------



## ratboy

koganinja said:


> no wonder edd got miffed of


He's not the only one.


----------



## royalpython

I've met both eddie and koga, and they seem like good people. I actually agree to a point about what they're saying.

Forum's in my eye's are not tactful enough. I feel these sort of discussions should maybe be made - ok not 100% complete privacy, but not directly open to the anti's. We don't have any access to the anti's conversations (or do we, and i'm not aware - i somehow think they'd be more organised than us, and not comment on these sort of issues publicly or at least until they can provide a final statement, but maybe i'm wrong).

We have perhaps come to a conclusion quicker by allowing everyone access to this forum (but have we become any closer to finalise what has to be done, and how it will be done?)... like i say - perhaps a more organised approach would be best... which is how i'm interpretting Eddie and Koga's opinions here. I wouldn't believe for a second that Eddie doesn't care for the welfare of any animal, nor has he directly said this either (how some are interpreting his comments).

Eddie might have been able to conduct himself better, but, in saying this, do you think the forum could have set about this in a different way, knowing anti's could use this as fuel (perhaps discussing & gathering a group of us, and approaching FBH or repta ourselves, rather than sit on our back sides and discuss openly and get nowhere)? I don't think we could, and my reason for saying this is because we're not organised enough like the anti's seem to be.


----------



## Athravan

toyah said:


> The problem with just demanding a post limit is that any anti wanting to see the "secret forum" just has to post LOL ROFL NICE SNAKE 500 times in 500 different threads to get access (and I am sure they would) ... and lots of people who could make valuable contributions will simply never get that high a post count to join up.


Agree with this I'm afraid. If going by post count then any verification is useless. It verifies the person uses the site, it does not take into account why they use the site. Obviously if the anti's are that serious then they will make an account that uses the off topic, birthday threads, RIP threads, and photos threads. You can have 500 posts saying "great pics!" "happy birthday!" "sorry for your loss" "welcome to RFUK!" in about 2 weeks if you want to without drawing a huge amount of suspicion. Obviously if anti's are serious they will go to any lengths and spend the time just meeting our requirements.

Whereas Eddie who only has a handful of posts and is unlikely to reach 500 quickly... wouldn't be able to enter the area for a long time!


----------



## Chris Newman

This thread has been the most unconstructive thread I have ever read, how sad. The POINT of starting this thread was to draw attention to the fact that those who oppose keeping reptiles in captivity, not just oppose shows, had started attacking the European shows such as Hamm. Whilst the attack on Hamm is the first, it will most certainly not be the last; I would anticipate other European shows being highlighted during the next year or so.

If people cast there mind back to the late 1990’s early 2000’s you will recall that our opponents were very successful at stopping just about all UK shows! The effort taken to reverse this was enormous, it took everyone pulling together to turn the tide. Our opponents have now turned there attention to Europe, there are fully aware they have lost the battle in the UK. Our government has stated quite clearly it will not stop breeders meetings. Therefore the fight moves to Europe, influence the EU and you directly influence the UK!

Now our opponents read this forum, of that you can be certain. In effect what we have all done is load there weapons for them, that is very sad an unfortunate. “what you say will be taken down and will be used in Court against you” – is the old saying I believe!

Reverting back to the issues of shows here in the UK, I would suggest that the standards of welfare at shows has increased markedly since the introduction of the FBH guidance back in 2002. However, I concede that times have moved on and it is time this document was reviewed. Hence starting the thread *FBH Show Rules, **I think that it is telling that relatively few people have commented!*

With regards to European shows, as said the spotlight has now moved to Europe and WE ALL need to support of colleagues there. I have been to meetings to discuss this matter and share our experiences and knowledge, and there are future meetings planned. I think it is important to understand this is not simply about shows; it’s about the keeping reptiles. What happened here in the UK ten years ago is happening now in Germany – today! Animal Rights is a cancerous blight that is spreading across the globe, Animal Rights has nothing to do with Animal Welfare, but veils itself behind the respectability of the welfare banner!


----------



## royalpython

The reason my comment was brief in that FBH show rules is because i already feel the rules are there, and like others have mentioned, perhaps enforcing them needs to be looked at more than making more rules. I liked ahtravan's comments in that thread.


----------



## DeanThorpe

eddiemunt said:


> Athravan,
> 
> I,m getting nowhere here because no one seens to understand me.
> 1). How do we defend the shows/hobby when the antis make the statement "even reptile hobbyists are saying publicly that there is a problem" without discrediting someone. If you can answer that, it would be helpful.


sorry ive only read up to this post at this time [page 12 i think]
but i can answer that
fight back with "even reptile hobbyists are saying publicly that there is a problem AND ARE GETTING TOGETHER TO DO THERE BIT TO IMPROVE THINGS"

Its fairly simple, i know in politics its better to ignore any battles you cannot win, and to missquote or blatantly lie when its in your favour to do so... but a genuine comunity of caring reptile keepers/breeders shouldnt be ashamed to tell the truth...this is itself should speak volumes to any who are opposed to the hobby.
Fight facts with facts...fight propagander with...facts... and honesty.
If this does not work the politics "bit" isnt being done right.


----------



## gaz

royalpython said:


> The reason my comment was brief in that FBH show rules is because i already feel the rules are there, and like others have mentioned, perhaps enforcing them needs to be looked at more than making more rules. I liked ahtravan's comments in that thread.


 
damn someone agrees with me!!! Considering that this thread revolves almost entirely around the size of display boxes at shows its grown some wings!!
As I've said more than once we have rules in place,lets tweak them a bit and get on with doing what we do,its fairly obvious that "Joe sixpack" doesnt give two shits either way otherwise there would be more than half a dozen people in this thread,the fact is that "joe reptile keeper" goes to shows to get things cheap,simple as that,and is far from concerned about box size or any other welfare conditions,however if things get complicated then "Joe breeder" will simply decide that its not worth the candle and not bother going.
So lets keep it simple and real,shows are for selling animals,sort out box size/enforce rules and lets get back to doing the stuff we like doing
regards gaz
PS:maybe if joe sixpack supported British shows a bit more instaed of running off to Hamm all the time,to grab animals at bargain bucket prices, we could have some shows to rival the Europeans??


----------



## ratboy

gaz said:


> PS:maybe if joe sixpack supported British shows a bit more instaed of running off to Hamm all the time,to grab animals at bargain bucket prices, we could have some shows to rival the Europeans??


hear hear...


----------



## gaz

if only i could spell :whip:


----------



## neep_neep

To be quite honest, i'm starting to wonder exactly who the 'antis' and 'extremists' are? 

At the end of the day, this is a _discussion _forum. We are here discussing what we feel is wrong with reptile keeping. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and I cannot see how it can be used as 'evidence' to 'load their guns' when we are simply discussing the contents of a report that has already been published!

They already have their 'evidence'. Big deal if they can say 'even the keepers themselves acknowledge there is something wrong'.

That is NOT a bad thing in my books. And where will that get 'them'? No further than where they already are.


----------



## Mason

gaz said:


> damn someone agrees with me!!! Considering that this thread revolves almost entirely around the size of display boxes at shows its grown some wings!!
> As I've said more than once we have rules in place,lets tweak them a bit and get on with doing what we do,its fairly obvious that "Joe sixpack" doesnt give two shits either way otherwise there would be more than half a dozen people in this thread,the fact is that "joe reptile keeper" goes to shows to get things cheap,simple as that,and is far from concerned about box size or any other welfare conditions,however if things get complicated then "Joe breeder" will simply decide that its not worth the candle and not bother going.
> So lets keep it simple and real,shows are for selling animals,sort out box size/enforce rules and lets get back to doing the stuff we like doing
> regards gaz
> PS:maybe if joe sixpack supported British shows a bit more instaed of running off to Hamm all the time,to grab animals at bargain bucket prices, we could have some shows to rival the Europeans??


 
WELL SAID THAT MAN!!

this forum can fill two coaches to goto hamm because the choice is good and it's "cheap"

Did all of the UK shows last year and saw the same few forumites (with the odd exception) at every show....

Support your local reptile clubs, groups and societies. Attend the breeders meetings and shows in the UK then perhaps more breeders will attend/bring more stock and we can actually turn the show into a decent expo like in europe and the states rather than somewhere you can go to buy corns and leopard geckos and have a bit of a stand and stare at some genetic gems snakes that are priced no differently to their website prices available to any one.


----------



## gaz

the Portsmouth show is likely to die a death as no one can be arsed to come,done it a couple of years running and while its a giggle to smoke with the other breeders and talk fishing in the carpark,you have to wonder if its worth the bother when only 30-35 people from the whole country can be arsed to turn up!!,bet quite a few from the south of England made it to Hamm:whistling2:but could'nt make it next door:bash:
regards gaz


----------



## Mason

exactly my point, folk can't be arsed to spend a few hours in the car to get to UK shows but will spend hours/days on a coach to get to hamm, like to think about "animal welfare" while completely ignoring the fact that (the vast majority) of purchases could have been made int he Uk for similar or the same money.

Animal welfare? Try buying UKCB instead of a corn/royal/whatever that's been shipped halfway round the planet to get to a show in europe then stuffed in a box in the hold of a coach for a further day or so.

don't get me wrong, i'm not completely against buying imports, but it shouldn't be done for the sake of it, we're importing a few bits this year, bits we couldn't buy in this country at all. If we could, we would.

all bar those few that got uber rare animals or MEGA bargains could have got exactly what they wanted in the UK.

take spider royals as an example, how many people got spiders or pastels or simlar cheap from hamm, I bet given time I could match any hamm price all bar the breeders selling pastels etc at silly cheap money to get rid with a UKCB animal delivered to their door!

If people started taking this kind of cash to UK shows then the animals to spend that cash on would start to appear. More and more breeders would think it worthwhile attending and more and more things would become available. Take retics for example. it doesn't look like we'll have any this year but unless things change drastically I fully expect to be either the only person selling retic morphs at the '09 UK shows. or one of a very, very small number. Ditto with the bigger royal breeders in this country, so many of them are not represented at the UK shows...yet they all goto hamm and even had people from the UK buying from them! When the same animals have been avsailable to the same people year round via their website. Support shows more and thse breeders will start to attend UK shows too..

I think there were 3-4 recognisded "big" (by big I mean someone selling multiple morphs) UK royal breeders at last year UK shows, Jamie swords, Genetic gems and a few others and that was it. This meant that:

1 - there wasn't much choice
2 - they could charge what they wanted


More customer means more breeders, which mean better prices and more choice.


----------



## eddiemunt

*devil eddie*

Chris N.,
I am afraid i can no longer absorb the insults i have received particularly from people i thought knew me.

MY HISTORY.

1). Founder member and sometime vice chairman of FBH the first organisation dedicated to preserving the hobby and shows and achieving some success.
2). Encouraged the FBH to at least give some financial help to M.Collinson and indeed offered some personal financial help. I suppose that must prove in someway that i'm against reptile welfare!!!
3). Co-operated with Tim Wass(now Head of the RSPCA's Inspectorate) in his attempt to produce a Memorandum of Understanding between the RSPCA and hobbyists' organisations which would have given the RSPCA access to hobbyist experts when a shop was reported to them. Also would have enabled genuinely bad shops to be investigated and acted against if appropriate. MOU was unfortunately rejected by the extremist RSPCA Ruling Council. More proof of my lack of concern for reptile welfare!!
4). Latest contact by me with T.Wass was regarding concerns expressed by M.Collinson and others about reptile welfare at Hull Rescue centre. Oh dear, further evidence of my lack of concern for reptiles!!!
5). Founder member and director of REPTA whose primary purpose is the protection of the trade which of course will include the hobby. No hobby =no trade.
6). I have never received or taken 1 penny from any organisation and have spent about £10,000 of my own money.
7). One statement i made was worded poorly which was the "discrediting of hobbyists". We/I have not and would not name any hobbyist when trying to defend the hobby against the extremists. The rebuttal is in the form of " the opinion or statement made" is only the opinion of a small group and would not be supported by the vast majority of hobbyists. The fact remains that, whatever some of you think, such statements on public forums does aid the extremists because we are not always aware that these statements have been quoted to M.P's, DEFRA, MINISTERS ETC so we are not there to refute them.
8). Shows are considered detrimental by many wholesalers/retailers and i have been guilty of using REPTA funds to support the fight for shows via REPTA. To these REPTA supporters i can only apologise but i believed it was in the long term interests of the trade.
9). To the people who seem to think its ok to bring any aspect or welfare problem to a public forum because it will give no propaganda advantages, YOU ARE WRONG and i base that statement on years of fighting the antis and dealing with DEFRA, RSPCA etc. Deal with problems but dont give propaganda opportunities to our opponents.
10).TO MAUREEN, i stand by my statement that because of your extremely high requirements for reptile welfare you can only achieve this by getting shows banned and all transport of reptiles also banned. That statement is a fact,not an insult. This would at least achieve the removal of two potential sources of stress. As to the opinions you have expressed about me without at least contacting me first to clarify your interpretation of my statements, i cannot forgive that and so the end of a long friendship. 
11).TO RORY. Yes, as far as l'm concerned things have reverted to the situation 10 years ago because here i have been trying to counter unwise statements on forums which is exactly what the FBH and it's supporters were having to do right at the start of our attempts to protect the hobby. The difference now is that most of those fighting for the hobby know i'm wasting my time and won't post for that reason. They were so right. Chris gave you one piece of confidential information recently so, if you are so insistent on the public knowing everything, why didn't you post it on the forum??? 12).Just in case any of you are unaware of extremist's agendas. The extremists have no interest in animal welfare as such and so however much reptile welfare is improved, it will make no difference to their actions. Before another insult comes, no, i am not saying welfare problems should not be addressed.
13).To Tim Wass. I hope that i have not destroyed our relationship by mentioning our communications on a public forum but i felt i had to defend myself. You see what i mean now about fighting our own side!!! My humble apologies to you.

The rest of you can congratulate yourselves on forcing me to make public the fact that i do, or more probably now , did have communications with the head of the RSPCA Inspectorate. Now you can continue with your insults.

Eddie Munt.


----------



## Athravan

I hope that no one has insulted you intentionally here Eddie, people on RFUK are used to being able to debate quite heatedly and this does not mean they have any personal issues with you, or are insulting you personally. 

Perhaps Koganinja hits home when he said (at least, I think he was saying) that sometimes comments can get misconstrued or misunderstood through the medium of words, as people can take things in the wrong manner when written down, as opposed to if we were talking in person.

Animal welfare, and increasingly the actions of opposing groups and the RSPCA is a sensitive subject which a lot of people feel very emotive about, and it's very hard to be unbias, sensible and practical about subjects which you feel strongly about.

I hope that this thread is not the way forward and that both the public, retailers, and organisations such as the FBH and REPTA can obtain the fine balance that will allow us all to work together for a common goal.

At the end of the day we must all remember we are on the same side here, I guess a lot of people just have different opinions on what the goals are, and how to get them.

Perhaps if you put forward a statement regarding the sensibilities of talking in an open forum, advise on how far you can take an opinion before it becomes detrimental, what the consequences are, and what methods of communication people can take to contact people about the issues they feel strongly about.... we could make it a sticky (stays at the top of the page), and people can read it and stop and think before they post.


----------



## Cyberlizard

Eddie,

It's good to hear from you again after so long. Keep up the good work sir!

Regardless of our legitimate differences as a hobby, I don't think we should get too worked up against one another over objectives and the like. We're not Nazis or Stalinists.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

eddiemunt said:


> Chris N.,
> I am afraid i can no longer absorb the insults i have received particularly from people i thought knew me.
> 
> MY HISTORY.
> 
> 1). Founder member and sometime vice chairman of FBH the first organisation dedicated to preserving the hobby and shows and achieving some success.
> 2). Encouraged the FBH to at least give some financial help to M.Collinson and indeed offered some personal financial help. I suppose that must prove in someway that i'm against reptile welfare!!!
> 3). Co-operated with Tim Wass(now Head of the RSPCA's Inspectorate) in his attempt to produce a Memorandum of Understanding between the RSPCA and hobbyists' organisations which would have given the RSPCA access to hobbyist experts when a shop was reported to them. Also would have enabled genuinely bad shops to be investigated and acted against if appropriate. MOU was unfortunately rejected by the extremist RSPCA Ruling Council. More proof of my lack of concern for reptile welfare!!
> 4). Latest contact by me with T.Wass was regarding concerns expressed by M.Collinson and others about reptile welfare at Hull Rescue centre. Oh dear, further evidence of my lack of concern for reptiles!!!
> 5). Founder member and director of REPTA whose primary purpose is the protection of the trade which of course will include the hobby. No hobby =no trade.
> 6). I have never received or taken 1 penny from any organisation and have spent about £10,000 of my own money.
> 7). One statement i made was worded poorly which was the "discrediting of hobbyists". We/I have not and would not name any hobbyist when trying to defend the hobby against the extremists. The rebuttal is in the form of " the opinion or statement made" is only the opinion of a small group and would not be supported by the vast majority of hobbyists. The fact remains that, whatever some of you think, such statements on public forums does aid the extremists because we are not always aware that these statements have been quoted to M.P's, DEFRA, MINISTERS ETC so we are not there to refute them.
> 8). Shows are considered detrimental by many wholesalers/retailers and i have been guilty of using REPTA funds to support the fight for shows via REPTA. To these REPTA supporters i can only apologise but i believed it was in the long term interests of the trade.
> 9). To the people who seem to think its ok to bring any aspect or welfare problem to a public forum because it will give no propaganda advantages, YOU ARE WRONG and i base that statement on years of fighting the antis and dealing with DEFRA, RSPCA etc. Deal with problems but dont give propaganda opportunities to our opponents.
> 10).TO MAUREEN, i stand by my statement that because of your extremely high requirements for reptile welfare you can only achieve this by getting shows banned and all transport of reptiles also banned. That statement is a fact,not an insult. This would at least achieve the removal of two potential sources of stress. As to the opinions you have expressed about me without at least contacting me first to clarify your interpretation of my statements, i cannot forgive that and so the end of a long friendship.
> 11).TO RORY. Yes, as far as l'm concerned things have reverted to the situation 10 years ago because here i have been trying to counter unwise statements on forums which is exactly what the FBH and it's supporters were having to do right at the start of our attempts to protect the hobby. The difference now is that most of those fighting for the hobby know i'm wasting my time and won't post for that reason. They were so right. Chris gave you one piece of confidential information recently so, if you are so insistent on the public knowing everything, why didn't you post it on the forum??? 12).Just in case any of you are unaware of extremist's agendas. The extremists have no interest in animal welfare as such and so however much reptile welfare is improved, it will make no difference to their actions. Before another insult comes, no, i am not saying welfare problems should not be addressed.
> 13).To Tim Wass. I hope that i have not destroyed our relationship by mentioning our communications on a public forum but i felt i had to defend myself. You see what i mean now about fighting our own side!!! My humble apologies to you.
> 
> The rest of you can congratulate yourselves on forcing me to make public the fact that i do, or more probably now , did have communications with the head of the RSPCA Inspectorate. Now you can continue with your insults.
> 
> Eddie Munt.


 
Eddie, 

What piece of confidential is that?

R


----------



## eddiemunt

*devil eddie*

Rory,
You know perfectly well what i mean. You were told in confidence that the Hindu monks were going to sue the RSPCA because they killed the cow and you didn't inform anyone on the forum although you couldn't resist putting "holy cow" in your posting. How come you decided not to make it public knowledge considering your comments about me regarding "secrets" relating to the hobby???? Or is this a case of Rory does what he likes but Eddie cant??


Eddie


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## eddiemunt

*devil eddie*

Cyber,
Nice to see you are still alive and kicking,

Eddie


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## DeanThorpe

Maybe because it was about a cow not a reptile? just thought that might be thats all.

Eddie, why cant we have reptiles transported and kept more safely at shows without banning them altogether?
Surely where theres a will theres a way?


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## TSKA Rory Matier

eddiemunt said:


> Rory,
> You know perfectly well what i mean. You were told in confidence that the Hindu monks were going to sue the RSPCA because they killed the cow and you didn't inform anyone on the forum although you couldn't resist putting "holy cow" in your posting. How come you decided not to make it public knowledge considering your comments about me regarding "secrets" relating to the hobby???? Or is this a case of Rory does what he likes but Eddie cant??
> 
> 
> Eddie


Eddie, 

Is that the best you can do?

Am l missing something? 

But what is the purpose to it being confidential?

The whole purpose of a confidential is it is bloody confidential!!

R


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## toyah

DeanThorpe said:


> Maybe because it was about a cow not a reptile? just thought that might be thats all.


:lol2: I'm glad it's not just me that wondered why Reptile Forums would need to be informed from Rory about the news article that was in all of the newspapers, online and offline, about a cow and the RSPCA.


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## Young_Gun

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Eddie,
> 
> Is that the best you can do?
> 
> Am l missing something?
> 
> But what is the purpose to it being confidential?
> 
> The whole purpose of a confidential is it is bloody confidential!!
> 
> R


One up manship isn't really best in a public forum is it?

Shows you both in poor light.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

Young_Gun said:


> One up manship isn't really best in a public forum is it?
> 
> Shows you both in poor light.


Valid point.

Thankyou YG

R


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## sparkle

reading this thread i can see why the reptile keeping/ breeding/ hobby is in a mess


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## Young_Gun

sparkle said:


> reading this thread i can see why the reptile keeping/ breeding/ hobby is in a mess


I can't really, I think there is a change needed whether in the people or just in the roles or organisations that are the voices for Herpers, most hobbyists I know are good people.


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## LFBP-NEIL

Question for eddie / chris, 

If there was a private trade section on this forum for verifed trade members would you be willing / able to post what Repta and the FBH are working on, recent developments etc etc, relevant to us as traders periodically to keep us in the Loop as such?

I as a trader feel that I do not belong to an association, even though as I believe (and please correct me if I am wrong) that I am indirectly funding Repta, I want a trade association that I can feel a part of, not interested in power games, I just want to be kept informed of current affairs relevent to my industry and business, and to spread the good work that the likes of Chris N. are doing.


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## eddiemunt

*devil eddie*

Rory,

You have said that all information relevant to the hobby should be publicly available? You have not excluded confidential information in that statement so you are criticising me for not releasing all information? This is not about egos, it is the fact that if you attack, i'm entitled to defend myself or am i not allowed to do that?? Or is it the fact that you can criticise but noone else? So clarify, am i allowed to keep information back from you/the hobby or not?


----------



## sparkle

Young_Gun said:


> I can't really, I think there is a change needed whether in the people or just in the roles or organisations that are the voices for Herpers, most hobbyists I know are good people.


 
i didnt clarify my comments...


if a change is needed then it means its not wokring the way it is.. its wholly apparant from this thread a change is needed as u say.. therefore the way it IS AT PRESENT isnt working.. the word i chose to express not working was

MESS


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## Guest

Originally Posted by *SteveL*  
_like a referred forum where we can discuss things? 

only garanteerd reptile people can enter once trusted_
How would you gain trust?
And surely the majority of people would think it a waste of time and not bother? You wouldnt gain support etc by hiding away from the world. You would just get the same views over and over. Seems silly to me.

yes after careful consideration i think that idea is the same as hiding the problems we are seeing in the hobby


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## DeanThorpe

Yes but if it allows them to be openly disscussed with only those who are involved directly in the "fixing" of it able to see it, thus eliminating any "antis" missquoting and using the disscussion against the hobby... and it makes Eddie, chris, rory etc happy and it easier for them to do thier bit then I think it may be a good idea...

..depsite being a nosey git who hates not knowing what is going on.. lol

I would like to mention though that some traders/breeders/shop keepers arent necesarily helpfull in this, nor do they wish to be...in fact the bad ones are a big part of this entire problem being talked about...however i think those what we would consider bad in that way arent online or atleast not on here to disscuss anything regardless of thier opnions


----------



## Guest

gaz said:


> damn someone agrees with me!!! Considering that this thread revolves almost entirely around the size of display boxes at shows its grown some wings!!
> As I've said more than once we have rules in place,lets tweak them a bit and get on with doing what we do,its fairly obvious that "Joe sixpack" doesnt give two shits either way otherwise there would be more than half a dozen people in this thread,the fact is that "joe reptile keeper" goes to shows to get things cheap,simple as that,and is far from concerned about box size or any other welfare conditions,however if things get complicated then "Joe breeder" will simply decide that its not worth the candle and not bother going.
> So lets keep it simple and real,shows are for selling animals,sort out box size/enforce rules and lets get back to doing the stuff we like doing
> regards gaz
> PS:maybe if joe sixpack supported British shows a bit more instaed of running off to Hamm all the time,to grab animals at bargain bucket prices, we could have some shows to rival the Europeans??


Very well put Gaz


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## Guest

Eddie please except my apologies if i have upset you 

thanks for posting the info you have about yourself : victory:


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## Testudo Man

This thread has been a facinating read...

It seems to show just how easy it is to catch "Forum fever". There was some "Mob fever" going down too!:whistling2:

My question is...would it have "panned out" like this in the real world? You know, face to face communication...Say a bunch of reptile people got together (both well known and respected, aswell as your ordinary keeper) at an informal meeting place, like a hall, pub etc.

The difference being, in a normal situation, people would just talk...There would not be little speech bubbles left above each person, displaying there exact words, for all to study, interpret, dissect, twist, and ultimately (at a persons leasure) to see just how best one can respond, scoring maximum kudos.

That is unfortunately how it works on forums, a couple of words out of place, and the Mob attacks :bash:...And the great british public just love to do it...

Then again, havent I done the very same thing myself! :blush:...Ive read through the thread, looked at the "speech bubbles" thought about my response!...Forums...you gotta love em :lol2:...till its your turn for the Mob, that is :whip:!!!...T.T.8)




PS. Im just a doddery old tort keeper, what do I know!


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## Chris Newman

pink said:


> Question for eddie / chris,
> 
> If there was a private trade section on this forum for verifed trade members would you be willing / able to post what Repta and the FBH are working on, recent developments etc etc, relevant to us as traders periodically to keep us in the Loop as such?
> 
> I as a trader feel that I do not belong to an association, even though as I believe (and please correct me if I am wrong) that I am indirectly funding Repta, I want a trade association that I can feel a part of, not interested in power games, I just want to be kept informed of current affairs relevent to my industry and business, and to spread the good work that the likes of Chris N. are doing.


Pink,

I think that would be a very good idea, my only slight concern is that it would need to be secure. One of the major issues is our opponents do not discuss what they are planning/working on open forums. Likewise we need to be circumspect about sharing information. Whilst this is not satisfactory, it is simply a fact of like – forewarned is forearmed. 

Having said that I am acutely aware that both REPTA and the FBH are pretty poor at disseminating information, and that criticism rests squarely with me - it’s a failure of mine. The reason, and this is not an excuse just the reason, is time. I just don’t have the time. Nevertheless, I realise this is an issue that needs addressing, perhaps your suggestion could be a start!


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Thats good, I dont think we need to know what counter measures are being worked on, But i for one would like to be informed as to what the opposition are up to and what current counter actions are in place, what we as traders can do to counter it and generally start pulling together.

I stumble accross things like the Animal Protection Agencys six point plan (Animal Protection Agency Home Page) on the internet and it worries me that we have no visible counter to it,

I hope other traders will see this thread and make their feelings known as this forum provides the ideal neutral ground needed for a "virtual" heads together!


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## peterf

As a brief overview, without getting caught up in this meaningless and counterproductive in fighting, I would like to make a few points.
There is a whole raft of work that goes on unseen by a whole group of mostly unpaid individuals that give up their time and money to help protect and support our hobby and, for some of us, our livelihood.
Eddie and Chris are instrumental in this process.
Repta does sterling work in trying to keep reptile keeping legal and alive in the UK and further afield.
The Pet Care Trust also has a livestock committe who are all unpaid volunteers and some very influential and knowledgeabe individuals who hold regular meetings, attend government meetings and Cites meetings around the World. Whilst the Pet Care Trust oversees all member pet shops, it may surprise you to know that a large part of the agenda of every meeting can be reptile related business.
Many of these organisations cross over and often have members who are in several groups.
It is true that we are all bad at letting the reptile keeping public know the work that is being done. I guess this is partly because most of our efforts are applied to the task in hand, rather than worrying who to tell and how much of this information should be available to the public. Don't forget, by public I mean reptile keepers and the anti reptile lobbyists who all read these forums. I would hazzard a guess they are watching with glee over this "in fighting".
With regard to the questions of funding, it is only the 4? big livefood producers that donate a % of their sales back to Repta to assist fund.
The original idea was to increase the cost of livefoods a little to enable this cost to be absorbed. Unfortunately, discounts had to be increased to remain competative with the non contributing producers and the present situation is that 4 livefood producers, all on their own are paying out of their own profits.
Many of you may be buying nice cheap tubs of livefoods from these very producers who refuse to contribute.
It was considered to raise funds in other areas, as snake keepers are unable to contribute, but like many industries the chain of supply on many products is very complicated and almost impossible to set a levy. 
With regard to Uk shows most breeders are unable to attend any shows. Anyone who gains a profit and breeds animals for a living would be prosecuted should they attend. That includes myself.
Come on guys and gals, credit where its due please and, just because you don't hear much, don't assume nothing is being done!


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## peterf

Just had a thought.
How about a sticker or marker on the livefood from these producers that would be displayed on the product in the store?
You could then choose to support these good causes- or choose not to.


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## jaysnakeman

peterf said:


> Just had a thought.
> How about a sticker or marker on the livefood from these producers that would be displayed on the product in the store?
> You could then choose to support these good causes- or choose not to.


sounds like a good idea


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## LFBP-NEIL

Im not interested in In-fighting, to be honest Im mainly interested in keeping my business succesfull, I know that theres a lot of work being done "behind the scenes" but I would like to be kept up to date with what the anti's are up to and how we can all work together to counter it. 

I do think a "traders" only section of this forum would be a good way for REPTA and the FBH to feed back some info to us, not after battle plans just info, such as this is what X are campaigning for you can help us by doing Y, etc etc, 

I would also really like to know who are not funding REPTA so I know who not to give my money to and who (if i need to) to lobby to do so, and this isnt as a member of the public, this is as a retailer that spends many thousands of pounds on wholesale goods each year. But things like this are best discussed out of the public eye in my opinion.


----------



## Moshpitviper

I would like to add another point refering to all the earlier transport issues. I for one have been to hamm a few times and have brought animals back into the uk as so many of us have. this at the minute is not illegal, we all know that. I have brought back what may be classed as extremely delicate species such as GTP's etc with absolutely no problems at all during transport. we made efforts to keep the animals heated, watered and ventilated during the journey back to the uk. 
Once i had purchased these animals they were then solely my responsibitlity and the burden was upon me to provide adequate husbandry needs from that moment on, or risk the life of an animal placed in my care..... i provided exactly what was necessary and have always done so at EU shows, and will continue to do so as long as i am allowed to bring animals in from Germany/holland/italy. I have (touch wood) never had a death during transport thus far. And i think it is appaling that people are blaming those who went out of their way to organise transport to these shows.... those guys work hard to sort us out a lift and the rules are laid on the table from the outset. If anyone bought animals that were temperature sensitive that perished in transport that says to me that the error was placed squarely on the buyer of the animals and subsequently those against our way of life can not tar us with the same brush.... a mistake made by a single person or even 4 or 5 does not speak for a million or so reptile keepers nationally or indeed the large number of us who make the trek to germany or similar euro shows.

And as for the problems people have with the vendors at British reptile fairs? well whenever i am trading CB animals at any show of any kind I go to great lengths to provide, heat water and secure hides as per the animals requirements. i urge any other trader to do the same. cover your own arses.... but most importantly think of the animals welfare.


----------



## peterf

The idea of marking the livefood tub would allieviate any issues of supplier privacy with the buyer.
Many shops and wholesalers do not buy from the producer and therefore, may not know who the actual livefood breeder is. If it were the 4 breeders who marked their food with the required mark, then the wholesaler and the trader and the retailer would all know that the producer was contributing to Repta.


----------



## Maureen Collinson

peterf said:


> The idea of marking the livefood tub would allieviate any issues of supplier privacy with the buyer.
> Many shops and wholesalers do not buy from the producer and therefore, may not know who the actual livefood breeder is. If it were the 4 breeders who marked their food with the required mark, then the wholesaler and the trader and the retailer would all know that the producer was contributing to Repta.



Peter,

From where I am sitting, that comes over as an excellent idea. :2thumb: I hope you take this idea to the main producers pronto. It is the fairest way to go, and if in doing so there are complaints along the way from some that don't contribute, then there is a simple answer for them. 

Mo.


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## peterf

Problem is Mo, that despite good intentions many people would prefer to save 5p or, if the shop didn't buy from a contributing producer- it would be too far to go to another store.


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## Moshpitviper

Then surely its up to us as consumers of said products to request our local shops stock only tubs with said label on or take our trade elsewhere. i think it is a really good idea btw.


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## Lostcorn

I am a relative newcomer to our hobby and do not know much of the history of reptile keeping in the UK and what reptile shows were like in the past. I have only kept reps for four years but I would like to make a few comments


1. I do not know Eddie Munt , but from what I have read he has done a lot of good work for our hobby , but in this thread he has come across in a very negative manner , even suggesting he would discredit herp keepers who suggested that everything in the garden was not rosy.(?)
Surely it is better if we are seen to be willing to put our own house in order rather than someone else doing it for us?

2. Eddie also said that he would advise REPTA to cease support for UK breeders meetings , Surely retailers and wholesalers are not afraid of a little competition from private breeders. Anyway , there are plenty of shop owners who pose as private breeders at breeders meetings.

3. If Eddie (repta) has information relevant to the survival of our hobby what gives him (them) the right to keep it secret?


At the end of the day it is us , the consumer , that funds REPTA , please correct me if I am wrong.

I expect these comments will be disregarded because I am a newcomer to the hobby , but they are still valid comments

regards

John


----------



## Trice

Lostcorn said:


> I am a relative newcomer to our hobby and do not know much of the history of reptile keeping in the UK and what reptile shows were like in the past. I have only kept reps for four years but I would like to make a few comments
> 
> 
> 1. I do not know Eddie Munt , but from what I have read he has done a lot of good work for our hobby , but in this thread he has come across in a very negative manner , even suggesting he would discredit herp keepers who suggested that everything in the garden was not rosy.(?)
> Surely it is better if we are seen to be willing to put our own house in order rather than someone else doing it for us?
> 
> 2. Eddie also said that he would advise REPTA to cease support for UK breeders meetings , Surely retailers and wholesalers are not afraid of a little competition from private breeders. Anyway , there are plenty of shop owners who pose as private breeders at breeders meetings.
> 
> 3. If Eddie (repta) has information relevant to the survival of our hobby what gives him (them) the right to keep it secret?
> 
> 
> At the end of the day it is us , the consumer , that funds REPTA , please correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> I expect these comments will be disregarded because I am a newcomer to the hobby , but they are still valid comments
> 
> regards
> 
> John


Very nice post mate.
And spot on.
There are a few members on these forums who state they have vital information, which in my opinion, if bragged about and so on, shouldnt be kept a secret. but are.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

Nice post Lostcorn

R


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## Maureen Collinson

Hi Eddie. 

I have not rushed back to reply here as I needed to ensure I was calm and thinking straight first.

First of all, I will not go into the matter of our friendship on here, other than to say I am deeply saddened by your ending it. No matter what you say to me, and regardless of whether or not I like what I hear, I would still rush to your side if you thought I could help you, as I can't throw away the earlier years of friendship just like that. I won't however disturb you via the phone, etc, but you know where I am 24/7, and I will always be here for you. 

Mo. :sad:


Personal issues apart now Eddie, It has been brought to my attention by several different people now that your wording is reading as though I accepted funds from the FBH, which was very much needed by them at the time, so I now feel the need to put the record straight on that, and thus bring forward your comment in one of your earlier posts, and reply with:-

I did not accept any money from the FBH either at the time of our meeting. I did mention the fact that you had offered me money in an earlier post and I had declined it, but I did overlook mentioning that you came first to check me out on behalf of the FBH, and if genuine to offer me financial help on behalf of the FBH. I was, and am still grateful to both you and the committee of the FBH as it stood back then, for stepping forward then, and offering to help in the first instance. 

Mo. :no1:


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## Guest

Excellent reply lost corn


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## Scott W

Mason said:


> . Ditto with the bigger royal breeders in this country, so many of them are not represented at the UK shows...yet they all goto hamm and even had people from the UK buying from them! When the same animals have been avsailable to the same people year round via their website. Support shows more and thse breeders will start to attend UK shows too..
> 
> I think there were 3-4 recognisded "big" (by big I mean someone selling multiple morphs) UK royal breeders at last year UK shows, Jamie swords, Genetic gems and a few others and that was it. This meant that:
> 
> 1 - there wasn't much choice
> 2 - they could charge what they wanted
> 
> More customer means more breeders, which mean better prices and more choice.


I attended EVERY UK show that was on (except those held while I was out of the country) and also gave them ALL free banner advertising on Reptile Classifieds - Buy, sell, exchange for free (and even designed the banners for them). 

I totally agree it's a shame more uk keepers can't be bothered to attend the UK shows but are happy to travel many 100's of miles to Hamm.


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## sparkle

the problem is with information..

you have to be willing to back it up in court

ive tried and at times succeded on here ( but at times failed) to give info regarding negativities within the hobby/ reptile rescue/ breeder/ trader etc parts of the hobby

its far easier when people SEE VISUAL PROOF... like a dead animal with severe dehydration... or crammed conditions etc

to SAY it in words causes arguements and fights..

it becomes a mish mash of grey areas and paranoia..

yet were all supposed to be singing off the same hymn sheet..

we dont.. we cant.. and theres one reason

human beings cant agree full stop.. and we parade our differences around on forums ( me included here so im not being a hypocrite I am justy as guilty as any other of arguing here but at least maybe now im looking at why and how to chennel this energy into something positive and not negative for the animals i love)

half the time noone knows what anyones arguing about and they become numb to it all.. so when we REALLY REALLY need to pull together for animal welfare or against the antis we cant do it with any positivity or energy.. we are a mish mash of peopel who havent a clue whos doing what or why and we start not to care as its so complicated and political....



if the people who are meant to be heading our important organistations cant agree and are prone to dramas and fighting does that not show they are just the same as the rest of us.. bickering... back biting and emotive... those three mixed together are a recipe... for negativity and failure..



the only flaw here is US.. the humans.. NOT the animals




as i said visuals say way more than words.... this world gave us these amazing and beautiful creatures and look what weve done with it....
the first clip is the last ever clip taken of these frogs in the wild ( i know it was a fungus that caused the problem... but if we think carefully humans have wrecked far more devestation within our natural world than any other single thing)


maybe we need a new slogan..

ANIMALS not EGOS



YouTube - Frogs Wave Goodbye - Life In Cold Blood - BBC One


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## Scott W

peterf said:


> Just had a thought.
> How about a sticker or marker on the livefood from these producers that would be displayed on the product in the store?
> You could then choose to support these good causes- or choose not to.


 
that's a great idea Peter but I still don't see why a flat % can't be appiled to the sales of ALL things herpetological. 

I don't think adding a % from livefood sales is anywhere near enough to achieve what we need to achieve and also think it's unfair that the snake keeping part of the hobby doesn't contribute at all. Hence a % of EVERYTHING you sell would be a fairer system. 

Of course it doesn't come out of your profits, it's just passed along the chain until ultimately the hobbyist pays when buying in store or online. (yes I understand that a couple of the other wholesalers don't contribute at all and probably never will but if those guys are identified and the shops involved, then at least people have a choice on who to support and give their money too).

Yes self promotion of this fund is a must, stores should have posters up saying they support it. Wholesalers should be open to say if they collect the levy and REPTA should clearly display on their website anyone who does not contribute.

I also think that breeders could add an optional % on their sales, that would go directly to repta. I used to pay the FBH a % of any sales I made, although I did stop that once I felt there was a lack of information flow.

With regards to shops I still think that a self regulating trade would be far better than involving LA's or worse the RSPCA. I'll give you a call a bit later.


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## Scott W

Back to UK shows (and in fact shows in general) I think the extremely difficult thing is that many people do not recognise the difference between the needs of Reptiles & those needed for mammals / birds etc. There is a BIG difference in terms of animal welfare on what is required as a necesity and what will just look good to uninformed public.


Perhaps the biggest issue and one that almost everyone would accept is a total ban on Wild Caught animals being offered.



What were the other issues? Transport? tub sizes? Water available? Age of stock? Temperatures?


Nerys, your comments about the the show that had the sun shining on tables whilst correct you don't actually point out that those animals could been taken OFF display by the owner at ANY TIME, so I wouldn't hold the show responsible for that.


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## sparkle

Scott W said:


> Back to UK shows (and in fact shows in general) I think the extremely difficult thing is that many people do not recognise the difference between the needs of Reptiles & those needed for mammals / birds etc. There is a BIG difference in terms of animal welfare on what is required as a necesity and what will just look good to uninformed public.
> 
> 
> Perhaps the biggest issue and one that almost everyone would accept is a total ban on Wild Caught animals being offered.
> 
> 
> 
> What were the other issues? Transport? tub sizes? Water available? Age of stock? Temperatures?
> 
> 
> Nerys, your comments about the the show that had the sun shining on tables whilst correct you don't actually point out that those animals could been taken OFF display by the owner at ANY TIME, so I wouldn't hold the show responsible for that.


but surely the show IS the traders??? and of course the buyers..

whos repsonsible for overseeing the traders do what they are meant to... is it SELF REGULATED ( the show standards I mean).. and are there ANY regulations indeed at all at the show..

if so and the traders agreed to them then both the show organisers AND the traders are responsible.. SURELY

this isnt just about shows... its about animal welfare in general across the board


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## Athravan

No organiser can control the temperature if the venue is not adequately provided. In the UK with the summers we have been having this would mean air conditioning... even those venues with large windows do not provide enough airflow for cooling when there are hundreds of people inside.

Unfortunately this is unlikely to happen, in the UK only large venues seem to have air conditioning. A two fold problem based on the fact that most professional venues will not host reptile shows, and that there is not enough funding to pay for them... means realistically the temperatures inside reptile shows are not likely to be stabilised in the near future.

An extremely hot day will always result in unsuitable conditions.


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## toyah

Might be worth keeping "show rules" stuff on the thread Chris started ... http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/hobby-issues-information/111851-fbh-show-rules.html


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## sparkle

Athravan said:


> No organiser can control the temperature if the venue is not adequately provided. In the UK with the summers we have been having this would mean air conditioning... even those venues with large windows do not provide enough airflow for cooling when there are hundreds of people inside.
> 
> Unfortunately this is unlikely to happen, in the UK only large venues seem to have air conditioning. A two fold problem based on the fact that most professional venues will not host reptile shows, and that there is not enough funding to pay for them... means realistically the temperatures inside reptile shows are not likely to be stabilised in the near future.
> 
> An extremely hot day will always result in unsuitable conditions.


if as you say temps are not likely to be stabilised int eh near future how can any of us expect suitable conditions to be reached 


ALSO interestingly enogh what are the rules regarding sellers selling at shows legally with regards to being taxed etc..

if breeders take animals to sell at these shows but do not declare the earnings to the tax office what situation does that leave them in legally..

and could the show organisers be liable for allowing slaes to take place within a building or premises ??

just wondering..

Im not up on the legal side of things...


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## Young_Gun

Personally I would say it is the breeder/sellers responsibility to ensure correct temps etc are maintained, every venue can not cater for everyone, beardie/uro breeders would be made up with 100f but crestie/uroplatus breeders would be doing there nut.

Take heat mats and stats / cooling devices and stats.


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## sparkle

right so if we agree then according to a few of the show veterans here its not possible to regulate the temps to suit every trader.. what do we do for the welfare of the animals then...

ive never been to a show ive been thinking about it a few times but im not sure after reading what happens at them i want to now..


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## Crownan

Young_Gun said:


> Personally I would say it is the breeder/sellers responsibility to ensure correct temps etc are maintained, every venue can not cater for everyone, beardie/uro breeders would be made up with 100f but crestie/uroplatus breeders would be doing there nut.
> 
> Take heat mats and stats / cooling devices and stats.


 
Cooling without a true AC system would be completely impossible. Venues that use such equipment have been stated above to either not support herp shows or are too expensive.

Very difficult situation.


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## Scott W

sparkle said:


> but surely the show IS the traders??? and of course the buyers..
> 
> whos repsonsible for overseeing the traders do what they are meant to... is it SELF REGULATED ( the show standards I mean).. and are there ANY regulations indeed at all at the show..
> 
> if so and the traders agreed to them then both the show organisers AND the traders are responsible.. SURELY
> 
> this isnt just about shows... its about animal welfare in general across the board


 
I would hold myself responsible for my animals on my display at ANY venue. If I thought any were under stress from temps (too hot or too cold) I would take appropriate action.

Other than direct sunshine I would say that I have not attended any show where the temps were too hot for the animals I was displaying. Yes it came close @ the June show with my crested geckos but there were still within a safe temp band (not so had the sun of been shining on my display...in which case I would of taken them off display).

I don't agree that the show organisers are in any way responsible for the deaths of those animals BUT I would say that if the table I was allocated was NOT suitable for my needs then of course I should either be moved or recieve a full refund.


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## Scott W

Crownan said:


> Cooling without a true AC system would be completely impossible. Venues that use such equipment have been stated above to either not support herp shows or are too expensive.
> 
> Very difficult situation.


 
I really am struggling to think of any venue where cooling was required? Even at the June show air con would not prevent deaths from animals in direct sunshine.


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## sparkle

Crownan said:


> Cooling without a true AC system would be completely impossible. Venues that use such equipment have been stated above to either not support herp shows or are too expensive.
> 
> Very difficult situation.


 
ok so al this taken on board..

the animals are possibly too cold to overheating dependant on the venue.. some will be ok but the less hardly species and cresties maybe might not be ok... more delicate species too

then they have to travel back in conditions from whats been reproted can also be very hot or very cold..

so all in all the time they take to TRAVEL TO the venue can be in excess of 24 hours

the time at the venue X hours

and the time coming back

so its possible for nearly THREE days their conditions are not suitable or even meeting minimum standard .. NOT due to anyone wishing this to be so..... but the fact its impossible to cover all requirements within the one SHOW BUILDING... or the one transport choice... eg coaches and the likes...



I am still none the wiser about the TAX and LEGAL implications for sellers who DO NOT declare their sales to the tax office ,,,,


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## Scott W

Young_Gun said:


> Personally I would say it is the breeder/sellers responsibility to ensure correct temps etc are maintained, every venue can not cater for everyone, beardie/uro breeders would be made up with 100f but crestie/uroplatus breeders would be doing there nut.
> 
> Take heat mats and stats / cooling devices and stats.


 
EXACTLY RIGHT!

I wouldn't take frogs to a show on a real hot summers day and I wouldn't take pythons to a cold winters show if I had no way of supplying heat....this is simple common sense, not something that needs putting into the rules!!!!


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## sparkle

Scott W said:


> EXACTLY RIGHT!
> 
> I wouldn't take frogs to a show on a real hot summers day and I wouldn't take pythons to a cold winters show if I had no way of supplying heat....this is simple common sense, not something that needs putting into the rules!!!!


 
but weather can change,.,.,, we do live in the UK after all..

the only place in the world where we can have FOUR
seasons in one day

it can be mild in the morning and BLISTERING hot in the afternoon.. and add in the heat of overcrowding at these shows and you reach boiling point...

I really was excited about attending some shows this year as a buyer NOT a seller..

but i think maybe i wont now.. id hate to see any animals in distress..

i know most sellers do everyhting they can but UK weather is outof their control..

as is the fact the building may or may not have air conditioning etc..

not really worth the risk i dont feel..


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## Scott W

sparkle said:


> the animals are possibly too cold to overheating dependant on the venue.. some will be ok but the less hardly species and cresties maybe might not be ok... more delicate species too
> 
> then they have to travel back in conditions from whats been reproted can also be very hot or very cold..
> 
> so all in all the time they take to TRAVEL TO the venue can be in excess of 24 hours
> 
> the time at the venue X hours
> 
> and the time coming back
> 
> so its possible for nearly THREE days their conditions are not suitable or even meeting minimum standard .. NOT due to anyone wishing this to be so..... but the fact its impossible to cover all requirements within the one SHOW BUILDING... or the one transport choice... eg coaches and the likes...
> 
> 
> 
> I am still none the wiser about the TAX and LEGAL implications for sellers who DO NOT declare their sales to the tax office ,,,,


Look, it's really simple, reptiles are about the least demanding of the commonly kept pets. If you following a little common sense then there is no reason why there would be any animal welfare issues involved in transporting to a show, displaying at a show, transporting back from a show.

My animals are packed in suitable tubs, in poly boxes. Temps are checked and adjustments made. Once at the show again temps are checked and adjustments made. I have not had any issues with any species I have taken to or from a show, including buying and selling at Hamm AND bringing 200 Crested Geckos back from Daytona in the middle of August (so it clearly demonstrates that it can be done without any welfare issues).


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## sparkle

Scott W said:


> Look, it's really simple, reptiles are about the least demanding of the commonly kept pets. If you following a little common sense then there is no reason why there would be any animal welfare issues involved in transporting to a show, displaying at a show, transporting back from a show.
> 
> My animals are packed in suitable tubs, in poly boxes. Temps are checked and adjustments made. Once at the show again temps are checked and adjustments made. I have not had any issues with any species I have taken to or from a show, including buying and selling at Hamm AND bringing 200 Crested Geckos back from Daytona in the middle of August (so it clearly demonstrates that it can be done without any welfare issues).


I didnt say it couldnt be done scott i said it IS BEING DONE..

as per plenty of the other peoples posts 

I havent been to shows only heard and saw piccies..

youre a VERY wel respected breeder and trader..

this isnt personal..

we al KNOW it COULD be done dependant on the actual venue being suitable ( which it seems some are most definately not )

it is not being CONSISTENTLY done.. thats the issue here surely.. not if individula traders ARE doing it.. BUT THAT SOME ARE NOT...

at no point was i being personal to you or any other trader.. i even already mentioned that in earlier posts..

some do it perfectly.. others average .....others fail badly.. and some horrifically fail ( as in life with everything there are various levels of care and attention)

this is where animal welfare comes into question

ITS REALLY SIMPLE

( to coin your phrase)


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## Scott W

sparkle said:


> but weather can change,.,.,, we do live in the UK after all..
> 
> the only place in the world where we can have FOUR
> seasons in one day
> 
> it can be mild in the morning and BLISTERING hot in the afternoon.. and add in the heat of overcrowding at these shows and you reach boiling point...
> 
> I really was excited about attending some shows this year as a buyer NOT a seller..
> 
> but i think maybe i wont now.. id hate to see any animals in distress..
> 
> i know most sellers do everyhting they can but UK weather is outof their control..


but like I said it just needs a little common sense, delicate species need extra care and buyers and sellers should expect that for the good of the animals sometimes they won't be on display but those are the minority of what is bred and sold at shows. 

I am still not sure of which shows people say are too hot? I'm pretty sure people would be over come by the heat before most reptiles would be?

rats, corns, kings, milks, pituphis, boids, leos, beardeds....I've not attended a single show that would of been anywhere close to a lethal temp for any of those and they are the bulk of what is displayed at shows. 

I will agree that I have some of the species listed above on sale perhaps a few feeds too soon and would of benefitted from another month with the breeder to gain some more size and strength but that is perhaps partly the pressure of trying to attend a show that is too early in the season.


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## DeanThorpe

I think the same can be said for our homes/rep rooms and reptile shops... if its extremely hot outside...without air con or soemthing temps can get high...for us....for our cats, for our reps.

The fact that it hasnt happened at any show scott has attended in the uk should say that the places the shows are held are alteast fairly well insulated i Guess...

I was at the basildon show in 06 and that was hot in there..i was really sweating...it was a freaky hot sunday lol but i dont think temps were actually realy that high..as far as the reps on the tables go...heat rises and as such what we walking past the table feel is prolly quite a lot warmer with everyone breathing in everyone elses faces, than it is at table level... im sure soemone had a thermometer keeping an eye on the temps...infact i assuem many or most would have had.


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## Scott W

sparkle said:


> some do it perfectly.. others average others fail badly..
> 
> this is where animal welfare comes into question
> 
> ITS REALLY SIMPLE
> 
> ( to coin your phrase)


:blush: sorry...didn't mean to come across agressive etc.

I take your point, and I agree with you but the thing is most of what I have said can't really be written into rules. It has to be a judgement call on that of the breeders with their animals for that show at that particular time. Yes the show organisers should perhaps have some more direct input into what is happening at their shows but again this needs to be judged at the time with each vendor.


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## sparkle

Scott W said:


> but like I said it just needs a little common sense, delicate species need extra care and buyers and sellers should expect that for the good of the animals sometimes they won't be on display but those are the minority of what is bred and sold at shows.
> 
> I am still not sure of which shows people say are too hot? I'm pretty sure people would be over come by the heat before most reptiles would be?
> 
> rats, corns, kings, milks, pituphis, boids, leos, beardeds....I've not attended a single show that would of been anywhere close to a lethal temp for any of those and they are the bulk of what is displayed at shows.
> 
> I will agree that I have some of the species listed above on sale perhaps a few feeds too soon and would of benefitted from another month with the breeder to gain some more size and strength but that is perhaps partly the pressure of trying to attend a show that is too early in the season.


 scott honestly this isnt about YOU personally..

I know you are an excellent trader..

this is about the problems that DO OCCUR...

I have only recently got interested in thsi subject of shows as i wanted to attend a few this year,,

i feel now i dont want to at the moment ... I know personalyl a lot of peole who went to some last year they were overcrowded and hot and not animals had access to water etc when they should have.. and thats just some basic issues.. leopard geckos in crciket tubs all day too..

now i dont know what traders were selling that way but i did see piccies..

so its time we REALLY looked at this and tried to fix it before we give the anitis anymore amunition..

not everything the anits have said is right.. obviously.. and its bloomin hard to eagree with ANY of what they said as i know they are saying ti to STOP al rep keeping in general

but sadly some of what they are saying.. SOME NOT ALL ... is..

ive nothing to loseor gain on my opinion here..

i dont sell as a trader or even a breeder at shows or otherwise...

and i certainly am not an anti..

i just love animals thats it


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## Crownan

Scott W said:


> I really am struggling to think of any venue where cooling was required? Even at the June show air con would not prevent deaths from animals in direct sunshine.


Not sure that I can either 

I was just addressing how is 'could/would' be done if it was an issue 

How about cresties? Would they be able to withstand a very hot hall in middleof summer? Say up to poss 95F / 35C? 

Also I thought I heard that many snakes can be affected neurologically by temps over 92F?


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## sparkle

Scott W said:


> :blush: sorry...didn't mean to come across agressive etc.
> 
> I take your point, and I agree with you but the thing is most of what I have said can't really be written into rules. It has to be a judgement call on that of the breeders with their animals for that show at that particular time. Yes the show organisers should perhaps have some more direct input into what is happening at their shows but again this needs to be judged at the time with each vendor.


 
you werent being aggressive just passionate... ( something i can 100% back up and appreciate)

but judgement calls will only be positive if they come from traders liek you.. not all are the same


many WONT self regulate as its not a legal requirement.. and when this happens who protects the animals..

if we dont want the antis to have amunition we need to do something...

for everyone

the ANIMALS FIRST// the breeders, traders, keppers and hobbyists alike..

that way we can stay proud and stand tall..

not have silly in-fighting and back biting and one-upmanship

were so busy arguing within our own camp the antis continue whilst we squabble between ourselves..

we need new positivity and new blood across all areas of the hobby..

specially the regulating bodies..

that we we can stand behind the organisations and the likes... and the environment we provide for our animals and be proud


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## Scott W

thanks for your comments Sparkle.

I doubt if everyone will ever agree on what is required and what is just for show with regards to rules at the various shows. I do agree that there should be some good base rules and perhaps the FBH could expand a little on what they already have.

I do have my concerns with regards to providing water and even food for some species, as this can have a massive negative effect on some species and I believe will far out weigh any possible need the reptile may have for a drink within 12 hours.


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## sparkle

Scott W said:


> thanks for your comments Sparkle.
> 
> I doubt if everyone will ever agree on what is required and what is just for show with regards to rules at the various shows. I do agree that there should be some good base rules and perhaps the FBH could expand a little on what they already have.
> 
> I do have my concerns with regards to providing water and even food for some species, as this can have a massive negative effect on some species and I believe will far out weigh any possible need the reptile may have for a drink within 12 hours.


 
no problem scott... credit where credits due basically


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