# Royal genetics help pls.



## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

For all the knowledge i have about snakes themselfs i know absolutely nothing about genetics so......

My normal Royal is a female if i was to buy a morph male and mated them would i get any morph babys??

Cheers


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## mojorising (Jan 4, 2010)

Depends on what male you bought. If you bought a visual albino and your female isnt a het then all offspring will be none visual (het) albino. That the same for any recessive morph male you get. If you single gene co-dom / dom male then odds are 50-50 that the offspring will be of that morph. i.e pastel male to normal female with a 4 egg clutch theoretically should give you 2 baby pastel and 2 baby normal. Same goes with any single gene morph male, lesser, spider, mojo, pin, cinny, fire, etc If you get a double gene male then its 50-50 the offspring will be have of each. i.e bumblebee (pastel x spider) to normal female with a 4 egg clutch should give theoretically give 2 pastels and 2 spiders. Or if its a BEL to a normal then all will be lessers (or whatever the gentic makeup of the BEL is)

What male morph you planning on getting??


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

mojorising said:


> Depends on what male you bought. If you bought a visual albino and your female isnt a het then all offspring will be none visual (het) albino. That the same for any recessive morph male you get. If you single gene co-dom / dom male then odds are 50-50 that the offspring will be of that morph. i.e pastel male to normal female with a 4 egg clutch theoretically should give you 2 baby pastel and 2 baby normal. Same goes with any single gene morph male, lesser, spider, mojo, pin, cinny, fire, etc If you get a double gene male then its 50-50 the offspring will be have of each. i.e bumblebee (pastel x spider) to normal female with a 4 egg clutch should give theoretically give 2 pastels and 2 spiders. Or if its a BEL to a normal then all will be lessers (or whatever the gentic makeup of the BEL is)
> 
> _What male morph you planning on getting_??


I dont know tbh! I am not a big fans of crazy morphs so probably just a pastel!


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

rc10andy said:


> I dont know tbh! I am not a big fans of crazy morphs so probably just a pastel!



If you splashed out on a Super Pastel male then all the resulting eggs will be Pastel :2thumb:. You will have no normals in the clutch.


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## rc10andy (Jun 16, 2008)

corny girl said:


> If you splashed out on a Super Pastel male then all the resulting eggs will be Pastel :2thumb:. You will have no normals in the clutch.


Hmmm, maybe its worth a few extra weeks saving then!!

Thanks for that!!:no1:


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## tricky (Sep 29, 2007)

mojorising said:


> Depends on what male you bought. If you bought a visual albino and your female isnt a het then all offspring will be none visual (het) albino. That the same for any recessive morph male you get. If you single gene co-dom / dom male then odds are 50-50 that the offspring will be of that morph. i.e pastel male to normal female with a 4 egg clutch theoretically should give you 2 baby pastel and 2 baby normal. Same goes with any single gene morph male, lesser, spider, mojo, pin, cinny, fire, etc If you get a double gene male then its 50-50 the offspring will be have of each. i.e bumblebee (pastel x spider) to normal female with a 4 egg clutch should give theoretically give 2 pastels and 2 spiders. Or if its a BEL to a normal then all will be lessers (or whatever the gentic makeup of the BEL is)
> 
> What male morph you planning on getting??


 
thought with a double gene to a normal you get 25% each?

i.e. bumblebee to normal =

25% normal
25% spider
25% pastel
25% bumblebee

?? i could be wrong :lol2:


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

mojorising said:


> If you get a double gene male then its 50-50 the offspring will be have of each. i.e bumblebee (pastel x spider) to normal female with a 4 egg clutch should give theoretically give 2 pastels and 2 spiders.


This statement is true. However, the usual interpretation would be no normals and no bumblebees among the four theoretical babies, which is an incorrect interpretation. 



tricky said:


> thought with a double gene to a normal you get 25% each?
> 
> i.e. bumblebee to normal =
> 
> ...


You are right. This is the correct interpretation for the two spiders and two pastels in four babies. Because whether a snake is a spider or normal does not determine whether it is a pastel or a normal.


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## yardy (Sep 9, 2009)

rc10andy said:


> Hmmm, maybe its worth a few extra weeks saving then!!
> 
> Thanks for that!!:no1:


go for it, you won't regret!


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## mojorising (Jan 4, 2010)

tricky said:


> thought with a double gene to a normal you get 25% each?
> 
> i.e. bumblebee to normal =
> 
> ...


Cant get bumbles or normals from that pairing. Reason for no normals is due to the bee offering a gene co-dom (pastel) or dom (spider). Thus making no normal. Reason for no bees is coz to make a bee the other parent needs to provide a gene to make a bee. Because of the fatal spider gene its a bit silly to put a bee to a spider but if you put the bee to a pastel then you can get pastels, super pastel, spiders, bee AND i think killer bees also???


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## tricky (Sep 29, 2007)

hmmmm

well a guy selling on the forums got 3 bees for a bee x normal pairing , normals too

13 Egg Clutch hatching - CaptiveBred Reptile Forums, Reptile Classified, Forum


also :

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/genetics/528422-male-morph-royal.html


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

mojorising said:


> Cant get bumbles or normals from that pairing. Reason for no normals is due to the bee offering a gene co-dom (pastel) or dom (spider). Thus making no normal. Reason for no bees is coz to make a bee the other parent needs to provide a gene to make a bee. Because of the fatal spider gene its a bit silly to put a bee to a spider but if you put the bee to a pastel then you can get pastels, super pastel, spiders, bee AND i think killer bees also???


Tricky is right. Mojorising's fatal mistake is to believe that the spider gene and the pastel gene are in the same gene pair. They are not; the spider and pastel genes are in different gene pairs. A bumblebee royal has a spider gene paired with a normal gene and a pastel gene paired with a normal gene.

A bumblebee royal gets a spider gene from one parent and a pastel gene from one parent. The parent with the spider gene may or may not have the pastel gene, too.

bumblebee x normal -->
25% normal
25% spider
25% pastel
25% bumblebee

Another way to make to make a bumblebee is to mate a pastel to a spider.

pastel x spider -->
25% normal
25% spider
25% pastel
25% bumblebee

pastel x bumblebee -->
1/8 spider super pastel = killer bee
2/8 spider pastel = bumblebee
1/8 spider 
1/8 super pastel
2/8 pastel
1/8 normal
(Fractions are probability per egg, not per clutch.)

If the spider and pastel genes were in the same gene pair, then it would be impossible to make killer bees from any mating.


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

i much prefer the way you've written this paul - easier on the eyes - no doubt, more can get to grips with it... 
the Sspp/SsPp format was not very reader friendly!

goodbye lecture hall - welcome to the forum! : victory:


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## oakelm (Jan 14, 2009)

So simple answer to first question depends on what you buy.

If a dominant morph like a spider, pinstripe then yes paired with a normal you would get morph offspring as well as normal.

If a co dominant morph like a pastel, mojave, etc then again yes paired with a normal you would get morph offspring as well as normal.
And if you go for a super (2 copies of a co dom morph)you will get all co dom morph offspring but no supers.

If a recessive morph like an albino, axanthic, hypo, etc then no when paired with a normal you would only get normal 100% het for the morph.

And combos depend on what the combo is made up off.


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## mojorising (Jan 4, 2010)

I never knew that a bemble bee x normal pairing could result in a bee offspring and is truly an eye opening experience. I really thought I was starting to get a grip on genetics there but have been proven wrong......still dont get it....but i do keep checkin this part of the forum as I find it the most educational and infornative of all catergories. 

http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/ae65/mojosleeping/WHATTHE****.jpg

I dont know how those other useers use fancy software to show what they're what their babbling about.....I'm old skool...i'll do it on paint....it'lll make no sense....but i'll copy and paste it and it'll be original coz no one works in paint anymore (its all toffeeappleemacshmuck) so in an old skool way (as pictued above) is that not bee to normal pairing??????????


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## oakelm (Jan 14, 2009)

mojorising said:


> I never knew that a bemble bee x normal pairing could result in a bee offspring and is truly an eye opening experience. I really thought I was starting to get a grip on genetics there but have been proven wrong......still dont get it....but i do keep checkin this part of the forum as I find it the most educational and infornative of all catergories.
> 
> image
> 
> I dont know how those other useers use fancy software to show what they're what their babbling about.....I'm old skool...i'll do it on paint....it'lll make no sense....but i'll copy and paste it and it'll be original coz no one works in paint anymore (its all toffeeappleemacshmuck) so in an old skool way (as pictued above) is that not bee to normal pairing??????????


Cant really show you as I am a paper punnett square scribbler. But you are going wrong by thinking the bumblebee has only two parts to consider the spider and the pastel gene. But dont forget the genes are pairs in themselves so not really just SP but actually NSNP or SsPp depending on prefence for a bumble.


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## oakelm (Jan 14, 2009)

Me again been having a think on how to explain it, with double dom/co dom I tend to think of them as seperate parts.

So normal x pastel =
50% normal
50% pastel

And normal x spider =
50% normal
50% spider


Now overlay the two, pastel results infront (spider part in brackets)

50% normal (So from the spider pairing part 50% of these normals would have another normal gene and 50% spider gene) So this equals 25% normal and 25% spider

50% pastel (And again 50% of these would get a normal gene and 50% the spider gene) so this equals 25% pastel and 25% pastel and spider aka bumble bee

Which finally shifted through makes simpler reading of
25% normal
25% spider
25% pastel
25% pastel spider (bumblebee)

Sometimes with combos working with straight percentages can be easier than punnets


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

oakelm said:


> So simple answer to first question depends on what you buy.
> 
> If a dominant morph like a spider, pinstripe then yes paired with a normal you would get morph offspring as well as normal.
> 
> ...


The first thing to do with EVERY mating is to determine ALL the genes in all the relevant gene pairs.

A pinstripe royal python could be produced by a gene pair containing two pinstripe genes (pinstripe//pinstripe = homozygous pinstripe) or by a gene pair containing a pinstripe gene and a normal gene (pinstripe//normal = heterozygous pinstripe). Only the pinstripe snake's pedigree or a breeding test will tell you whether the snake is pinstripe//pinstripe or pinstripe//normal. And sometimes only a breeding test will tell you whether the snake is pinstripe//pinstripe or pinstripe//normal.

pinstripe (pinstripe//pinstripe) x normal (normal//normal) -->
1/1 pinstripe (pinstripe//normal)

pinstripe (pinstripe//normal) x normal (normal//normal) -->
1/2 pinstripe (pinstripe//normal)
1/2 normal (normal//normal)

Mating an albino to a normal produces normal-looking het albinos ONLY if the normal parent has two normal genes (normal//normal). If the normal parent actually has an albino gene paired with a normal gene (normal//albino = het albino), then some of the babies will be albinos.

albino (albino//albino) x normal (normal//albino) -->
1/2 albino (albino//albino)
1/2 normal (normal//albino)

The amelanistic mutant gene in corn snakes is so common that many snakes sold as normals have a normal//albino gene pair. As more generations go by, the same will be true of royal pythons.

A morph is what you see and results from the action of a given gene pair or combination of gene pairs. Dominant/codominant/recessive describe the relationship of two genes. Strictly speaking, morphs are not dominant/codominant/recessive. In other words, the pastel morph is just a morph, not a codominant morph. But the pastel mutant gene is codominant to the normal gene.

Clear as mud?



mojorising said:


> I never knew that a bemble bee x normal pairing could result in a bee offspring and is truly an eye opening experience. I really thought I was starting to get a grip on genetics there but have been proven wrong......still dont get it....but i do keep checkin this part of the forum as I find it the most educational and infornative of all catergories.
> 
> image


Admitting ignorance is the first step to knowledge.

The Punnett square in the image treats pastel and spider genes as if they were in one gene pair. This is the single most common mistake that students make when moving from matings involving single gene pairs to matings involving multiple gene pairs.

The first thing to do with EVERY mating is to determine ALL the genes in all the RELEVANT gene pairs. There are many thousands of gene pairs, so for simplicity, we ignore all gene pairs that have two normal genes in BOTH parents. At least, to the best of our knowledge and belief. So, if we are mating a pastel to a normal or a spider to a normal, we can ignore the gene pairs with normal versions of the albino mutant gene, with normal versions of the pinstripe mutant gene, with normal versions of the lesser platinum mutant gene, etc.

If we are mating a pastel royal to a normal royal, there is only one gene pair of interest. The pastel royal has a gene pair with a pastel mutant gene paired with a normal gene (pastel//normal). And the normal royal has a pair of normal genes (normal//normal) corresponding to the pastel royal's pastel//normal gene pair. In this mating, both snakes have a gene pair with normal versions of the spider mutant gene, so we can ignore that gene pair along with all the others.

If we are mating a spider royal to a normal royal, there is also only one gene pair of interest. The spider royal has a gene pair with a spider mutant gene paired with a normal gene (spider//normal). And the normal royal has a pair of normal genes (normal//normal) corresponding to the spider royal's spider//normal gene pair. In this mating, both snakes have a gene pair with normal versions of the pastel mutant gene, so we can ignore that gene pair along with all the others.

When we mate a bumblebee royal to a normal royal, there are two gene pairs of interest. The bumblebee royal has a spider//normal gene pair and a pastel//normal gene pair. The corresponding gene pairs in the normal royal are normal//normal and normal//normal.

All sperm and eggs get one gene from each of the parent's gene pairs. There are no gene pairs in sperm and eggs, just singleton genes. There are two gene pairs of interest in our bumblebee x normal mating, so we ignore all the genes in each sperm or egg except the two genes of interest. But although there are two genes of interest in each sperm or egg, that does not make them a gene pair.

As the normal royal has two normal genes in the first gene pair, all the sperm or eggs get a normal gene from that pair. And all the sperm or eggs get a normal gene from the second gene pair. So all sperm or eggs are normal normal. 

The bumblebee royal has a spider//normal gene pair and a pastel//normal gene pair. If a sperm or egg gets a spider gene from the first gene pair, then it can get either a pastel or a normal gene from the second gene pair. And if a sperm or egg gets a normal gene from the first gene pair, then it can get either a pastel or a normal gene from the second gene pair. That produces sperm or eggs with four gene combinations:
spider pastel
spider normal
normal pastel
normal normal

A bumblebee royal x normal royal mating has the following Punnett square:
............................ normal normal
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
spider pastel | spider//normal pastel//normal = bumblebee
spider normal | spider//normal normal//normal = spider
normal pastel | normal//normal pastel//normal = pastel
normal normal | normal//normal normal//normal = normal

I would recommend picking up a copy of Pritzel's Genetics for Herpers for more help.


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## mojorising (Jan 4, 2010)

paulh said:


> I would recommend picking up a copy of Pritzel's Genetics for Herpers for more help.


I am getting that book and if its as good as you say it is and makes me and others understand genetics better, then I think the mods should make a sticky stating this book should be bought and read


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

*mojorising*

you do your punnetts similar to me (i never bother with the 'N' unless necessary tho) - it's just the gene 'options' from a given combo that you need to work on
ie: a super pastel (x normal) wont create supers, because both of the pastel genes are on the same gene locale
whereas a bumblebee (x normal) WILL reproduce itself because the spider and pastel genes are 'different'

this link shows 'our' way of doing things Royal Python Morphs Genetics


bumblebee x normal...

.....N...P...S...PS
N...N...P...S...PS
N...N...P...S...PS

as you can see - 1:4 chance of a bee


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## Spuddy (Aug 24, 2009)

mojorising said:


> I am getting that book and if its as good as you say it is and makes me and others understand genetics better, then I think the mods should make a sticky stating this book should be bought and read


 
I recieved my copy of it last week, have had a quick glance at it but havent read it properly yet. but seems really good and explains everything simply with diagrams and pictures so you get the jist of it properly.

definetly recomended by me.


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