# patternless stripe, how was it for you? and carrot tail too?



## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

i'm interested to know what results people have seen when breeding banded gecko's or other non patternless stripe to patternless stripes, has anybody managed to get patternless snow RAPTORS from a banded parent? or does the banded pattern appear dominant.
If you breed a banded/jungle to a patternless stripe, and get banded offspring, when bred to other banded "het patternless" Do you get any patternless stripes? how about banded "het patternless stripe" to patternless stripes?????
and also has anybody ever hatched a stunning carrot tail from not so stunning parents, i'm talking 70% or more


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## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

I`ll just write what I believe from my own point of view and from my own experience mate.

You can absolutely get a Patty Stripe from a full Patty Stripe X polygenic het` Patty Stripe - all about the luck of the draw. If you just change the Patty Stripe X `het` Patty Stripe to Raptor X `het Raptor (banded/normal/snow etc) - then it`s easier to see that it`s pretty easy/common to be able to produce a full Raptor (patty rev str`s) from a Phenotype X Genotype. There will, more than likely, be an absolute mix of PRS`s, Stripes, Aberrants and Banded`s in whatever proportion, but the chance of a good example will very much be there. Obv, the theory is that to accentuate any polygenic trait you should always breed the 2 best examples that you can find together to give yourself as much chance as possible of it coming through in the offspring. This is true, as your chances are increased of at least creating youngsters that express said trait as well as, hopefully better, than either of the parents - yet whilst you do increase your chances of getting `carbon copy/better` babies, you will always retain the chance of making `nothing` that you wanted; many a time have 2 stripes produced banded babies. But the thing with poly`hets is that they are so unpredictable - they can lurk and linger for many generations and only show themselves when they feel like it, or the right combo` has been done. 

In the past, I`ve had Patty Stripes from Bold Stripe X Reverse Stripe; Banded leos from Reverse Stripe X Reverse Stripe; bought in a Reverse Stripe from a Banded het Raptor X Raptor etc, etc....if the starting point in any long term Patty Stripe breeding project, was at `some point in history` a good example of a (R)aptor (the eclipse is a byproduct of the Aptor pairings) - in itself expressing a good Patty Reverse Stripe, then each and every one of it`s ancestors has a chance to be carrying the required genes/components to make a Patternless reverse stripe baby, or one of the `offshoots`: in whatever manifestation ie Rev Str, Stripe, Patty Stripe or Jungle - and it could be a low grade of that trait, or a very good grade (excellent amount/quality of stripe). The hard yet fun part, is figuring out which of the Raptors babies got the genes through test breeding!!!

I know of a few ppl/breeders who`ve produced some nice examples of Patty Reverse Stripes - totally unexpectedly and out the blue - from combo`s such as Tangerine het Raptor X Normal het Raptor. They were hoping for some nice, deep orange normals, yet ended up with stripes and jungles in their collection - turns out nearly every hatchling the male `Tang het Raptor` sired had at least some form of Jungle/Stripe or abberant patterning, yet he appeared completely `normal/standard` bar his nice Tang` colour (again, this is another polygenic trait that, this time, came through from the Raptor parent, yet the `stripe` genes were carried as opposed to expressed). All he could put that down to was the quality and strength of the poly` genes the male was carrying. And so whilst polygenic traits aren`t passed down or carried in the same guaranteed genetic manner others, such as simple recessives, are - they can have a massive influence on young depending on exactly what the parent(s) is carrying.

So, imo, it`s definitely more than possible to produce really nice Patty Reverse Stripes from a pair of leos that have, or are likely to carry, the genes for it in their locker. The closer to being full PRS`s the parents are, the more likely it is that a higher percentage of youngsters will express it ie 1 full PRS and 1 polygenic het PRS parent `should` produce more PRS`s than 2 leos that had (R)aptor grandparents. Again though, simply through what I`ve seen myself, if a leo or pair of leos, that express or carry the genes for PRS (given how closely linked they all are) have a good chance of producing PRS, Reverse Stripes, Stripes, Jungles and/or leos with an aberrant patterning. It`s also my belief that there is a `scale` for stripes, in that an aberrant is the lowest strength (so it`d be hard for 2 x aberrants to produce a PRS), then Jungle, Stripe, followed by Reverse Stipe and top of the `jungly` tree is the PRS - which can produce any of the `lower` patterns with ease depending on pairing.

Regarding banding being more dominant to jungle/stripe - the banding is the `classic/natural` pattern, so inherently it`s always going to be able to rear it`s head in babies from time to time, and there will always be hatchlings born that have reverted back to their `natural state` regardless - yet the PRS`s/stripes/jungles etc have been line bred to such a degree, and have become so far removed from that `natural pattern` that even pairing one strong Patternless Reverse Stripe to a banded leo, can produce stripe babies due to the `all, some, none, carry, don`t carry` behaviour of polygenic inheritance.

Apologise`s if that all sounds like tosh/waffle - it`s 4.43am, I can`t sleep so thought I`d drone on for a while  Prob won`t win any nobel prizes for contributions to the genetic database, but sounds pretty plausable haha! :whistling2:


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

yeah. What Funky said...


:lol2:


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

funky1 said:


> I`ll just write what I believe from my own point of view and from my own experience mate.
> Apologise`s if that all sounds like tosh/waffle - it`s 4.43am, I can`t sleep so thought I`d drone on for a while  Prob won`t win any nobel prizes for contributions to the genetic database, but sounds pretty plausable haha! :whistling2:


it absolutely doesn't sound like tosh/waffle, its exactly what i thought put into words clearly understandable for all to read, i've had limited experience breeding polygenic hets, every patternless stripe i've produced has come from patternless stripe parents with the exception of two patternless stripe enigmas, where the mother appears to be a hypo enigma although she is het for eclipse , she was bred to a patternless stripe eclipse and despite being visually a hypo enigma, the only two eggs that hatched were both patty stripe enigma's,

does carrot tail work the same way? somewhere down the line there needs to be a full carrot to get more in successive generations?
i get the theory that two parents with a trait usually make offspring with at least as good a trait, occasionally better but also occasionally worse but i remember seeing nick&carrie's (ark) eclipse they hatched from "nothing " carrot tails and it was a 100% carrot, is it just a random thing that can emerge or does there need to be some genetics buried in there for the carrot to appear?


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## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

boywonder said:


> does carrot tail work the same way? somewhere down the line there needs to be a full carrot to get more in successive generations?
> i get the theory that two parents with a trait usually make offspring with at least as good a trait, occasionally better but also occasionally worse but i remember seeing nick&carrie's (ark) eclipse they hatched from "nothing " carrot tails and it was a 100% carrot, is it just a random thing that can emerge or does there need to be some genetics buried in there for the carrot to appear?


Carrot tail, as we know it, is polygenic: selective bred - behaving in pretty much the same way as Jungle, Stripe, PRS etc, etc. So in an ideal world you`d want to breed the 2 best examples of CT`s together that you could find, in order to improve it in the first generation of young. So if you got your hands on say 2 X 50% CT`s, the hope would be that a 55% CT would be produced (prob more). The higher your hopes/aims for a CT project, then the fastest route - and most likely to produce the results you want - would be to go for the highest percent CTs to breed together as poss, even if this was only to try and ensure that the amount of CT at least stayed the same in the young (hopefully improving) and not decrease. The same as any polygenic trait though, there`s still no guarantee that the desired trait will come through well; though the more intensely bred, better quality and better examples of leos that show such traits do seem much better at passing them on when bred together - perhaps an indication that intense line breeding has strengthened these traits, maybe even `fixing` them, as I believe has happened with a good number of Super Hypos: the `Super` aspect being a once a `pure` selective bred trait that now behaves much more strongly in breedings. Super Hypos are now known to be able to produce more Super Hypos regardless of leo morph paired to - which, theoretically, goes against the grain that a `patternless` polygenic (`super` Hypo) X a spotty Normal should equal a pattern inbetween both. Anyroad, yup CT behaves in the same way as any polygenic trait - bred 2 together, you `should` get mainly good CT`s; breed 1 CT with a non-CT and you`ll get a mix (good, fair and none) and breed 1 CT to a non-visual, gauranteed poly`het CT and, again, you`ll get a mix of the good, fair and none. 

It is the most frustrating, yet the most rewarding/exciting part of breeding leos with polygenic traits - is that it`s impossible to know just what will hatch out. When you breed a Blizzard to Blizzard, you know you`re gonna get ....... a Blizzard, yet when you breed a CT to a CT, or Bold Stripe to a Bold Stripe, there is a glimmer of hope that (for many months after hatching given they can take upto 6 months to `come through`) even though you`re confident of good results, you could end up with a hatchling that surpasses all your hopes and expectations - the 1 in a 1000 baby that takes things to a new level.

As usual with polygenic traits and their inheritence, you can never guarantee which out of any babies you produce, or indeed any leos you buy (contrary to some large breeders selling X leos as `het polygenic trait`) that are hoped to be carrying poly`hets, will actually be carrying the full set of `multi/combination` gene(polygenic) traits needed for it to come through in future generations. It`s interesting too, that CT (admittedly in far less proportion than the mandatory 15%+ needed) does actually seem to be a naturally occuring trait that`s expressed in a number of WC leos to some degree. These WC`s showing the tiniest amount of orange at the base of the tail, would have been the original leos that were bred together to make the ones we have today - through selective breeding (improving the amount year upon year). Again, very similar to stripes et all, that once upon a time were naturally found aberrant patterned leos and these are something we`ve worked on, accentuated and `improved` over the decades - no doubt strengthening certain traits, and weakening other areas. 

It may be a little `controversial`, but it`s looking like there is more than one type of Carrot Tail gasp at least visually - that is to say that not all `actual` carrot tails are true. There are the CT`s that were/are line bred for their deep, intense block of orange colour that was found at the base of the tail - often deeper and more intense than the orange colour found on the rest of the leo. These are more often than not the type of CT we find on SH, Hypo, Sunglows etc - and are the result of decades of selective breeding. With these `true` CT`s it`s often noticable that the block of orange either abruptly stops and changes to a white/grey colour, or will extend a little further down the tail in broken blotches or spots. Then, there are the CT`s that were/are produced by combining the Stripe/PRS trait with the tangerine of Aptors/Raptors. These CT`s are thought to be created by the Patty Reverse Stripe gene actually continuing to extend down to the very tip of the tail, and actually `dragging` the torso colour (tangerine) down with it. If you look at the difference between a CT and a good percent CT Raptor, then it`s often (not always) possible to see that the Raptors tail will often `fade` along the tail, starting strong and bright, and simply fading away into a ligher colour - as opposed to `stopping` (and with the PRS`s tail stripe being polygenic, if you wanted to `fill` the stripe along the tail in with tangerine, then you`d simply line bred, but in reverse - 2 poor `central` tail stripe Raptors, with infilling tang would be bred together to create visual CT`s as the white strip colours up).

I could only hazard an educated guess (I`m sure I`ll be corrected if wrong!) that the `full CT Eclipse` - which 100% had Raptor ancestory somewhere along the line due to the presence of true recessive Eclipse - that Ark produced, was a result of the polygenic Tangerine coming through along on the back of the Eclipse gene (that`s if it wasn`t directly from the parents). Eclipse, tang and PRS are all so interlinked with each other due to the Raptor projects, that the vast majority of all leos with such ancestory have strong echoes of it somewhere in their genetic make up. As we`ve seen with the RADARS and other projects, it`s quite a long process even trying to isolate the Eclipse gene from the Tremper gene, and given these are simple recessives, it makes isolating the associated polygenic traits from Eclipse nigh on impossible (again, Radars are a great example given the - NOT intended - number of PRS Radars on the market that are mistakenly seen as the intended `ultimate` example of the morph, when in fact they`re just a associated trait of the eye gene in a Bell Eclipse). This would also explain where your 2 PRS Enigmas came from - yup, a great deal would have been passed down from dad, but it was the associated PRS polyhets that were passed down with your Hypo`s het Eclipse, that enabled the PRS code to be completed fully and with strength, and to come through in the young : victory:

Anyroad - apologies if I`ve repeated or gone over a load of stuff that you already know pal.


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## Tink&Chaos (Mar 20, 2010)

waaaaaaay out of my depth here, as am still trying to learn genetics and the like!
But we have two leopard gecko's (one male one female) both from part of the patternless stripe project. can't wait too see what they 'throw' out next year when we breed them together


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

thats a cool looking eclipse, is the other gecko an eclipse too, are they both full eclipse or is one snake eyed? i'd be interested to know what percentage of eclipses that hatch have full eyes, i've never hatched snake eyes from full eyed parents and also never hatched full eyes from snake eyed parents, i did have a snake eyed baby that reverted to normal eyes a couple of seasons ago which was quite weird, eclipse is a funny mutation, all kinds of strange things pop up with it like the piebald legs and nose, and the way that het eclipses show the piebald markers, makes me think that it occupies more than one position in the genetic code. anyway, good luck breeding them,hopefully they won't throw out any tremper babies , if not i'll buy a couple of babies off you,


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## Tink&Chaos (Mar 20, 2010)

LOL...Ok, both of my patternless eclipse projects are indeed full eclipse 
I'll add a pic of him in a min so you can see.
That's dead weird with your snake eyed baby, so interesting. I don't think enough is understood about the eclipse eye's..am I right?
We have quite a collection of eclipses now. Most of our females are babies, so wont be bred until at least next year. Our leo breeder advised we stay along the lines of breeding for eye colours more than anything, because of what leo's we have. But as said, am still trying to learn all the complicated stuff 
Maddison (in my sig pic) patternless stripe project, will deffo be bred with Malachi our P.S.Project next year though. Just can't wait to see what happens & what babies we get!
I'll keep u posted 

Have you got any patternless stripe Leo's?

Malachi patternless stripe 'project'









Malachi posing for the camera!


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

I love "typical" eclipses, especially when they express the white washed nose. I need some living with me.....

you had a nice 1.1 didn't you Ste?

Anywho... back on topic....


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Based on this picture, Id say Malachi is a Eclipse reverse striped.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

MrMike said:


> I love "typical" eclipses, especially when they express the white washed nose. I need some living with me.....
> 
> you had a nice 1.1 didn't you Ste?
> 
> Anywho... back on topic....


yea i had a nice pair, sold one to my mate here in southport and one to tonkaz on here, got a few bell patternless stripe eclipses but thats a whole other thread lol


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## Tink&Chaos (Mar 20, 2010)

> gazzBased on this picture, Id say Malachi is a Eclipse reverse striped.


Thanks Gazz. All our breeder said was that he was part of the p.s.project...but he never got to finish the project which he was doing along side A&M geckos. Hence why he sold Maddison, and then Malachi came along...our breeder was gutted lol.
So we are being guided by him, in the hope of carrying on where he left off 

Out of interest what would you say Maddison is? Again just known as patternless stripe project (part of) lol


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Tink&Chaos said:


> Out of interest what would you say Maddison is? Again just known as patternless stripe project (part of) lol


Can you post some good birds eye pictures, Him as a baby would be better.He's a bit hard to do, As his patterning looks very fragmented.He will be either a Hyper aberrant(Jungle), A fragmented striped, Or very spotted reverse striped.

Patternless striped is short for Patternless reverse stripred, So Malachi has the bloodline being a Eclipse reverse striped.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

Tink&Chaos said:


> Out of interest what would you say Maddison is? Again just known as patternless stripe project (part of) lol


 
i'd say stripe because of the strong line down each of its flanks


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