# Early signs of pyramiding?



## duketherussian

[URL="http:// [URL=http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/rlakey9/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141124_091429_zpsibx75urt.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag209/rlakey9/Mobile%20Uploads/20141124_091429_zpsibx75urt.jpg[/IMG][/URL]"]http:// [URL=http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/rlakey9/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141124_091505_zpsw6pmj2x3.jpg.html][/URL][/URL]


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## duketherussian

http:// [URL=http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/rlakey9/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141124_091429_zpsibx75urt.jpg.html][/URL]


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## duketherussian

Can anyone see the early stages of pyramiding, particularly the back central Scute? I've read it's due to dehydration but isn't necessarily bad for their health? He's always got water and it's always got mud deposits in it so he must go in, but maybe he's not taking it in. I've been researching Torts, particularly Horsefields since we got him in May, and I think I've got everything right in regards to keeping him healthy and active, but perhaps I'm missing something?
We were overfeeding him, as indicated by the growth lines, his food was freely growing in his enclosure which I've stopped now following advice from this forum. 
He doesn't burrow at night in his indoor enclosure, which I've read is what helps keeps their shell hydrated, so maybe I should turn the heat down slightly to encourage him to burrow. It's currently not lower than 18° at night, and obviously higher during the day, upto 32°ish under his bulb.


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## Arcadiajohn

as always "if in doubt see your specialist vet" 

it is impossible to diagnose over the net, especially when the real issues always happen under the shell. you need pro help.

I wish you ever luck and hope you get a clean bill of health

John


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## purplepixie

duketherussian said:


> Can anyone see the early stages of pyramiding, particularly the back central Scute? I've read it's due to dehydration but isn't necessarily bad for their health? He's always got water and it's always got mud deposits in it so he must go in, but maybe he's not taking it in. I've been researching Torts, particularly Horsefields since we got him in May, and I think I've got everything right in regards to keeping him healthy and active, but perhaps I'm missing something?
> We were overfeeding him, as indicated by the growth lines, his food was freely growing in his enclosure which I've stopped now following advice from this forum.
> He doesn't burrow at night in his indoor enclosure, which I've read is what helps keeps their shell hydrated, so maybe I should turn the heat down slightly to encourage him to burrow. It's currently not lower than 18° at night, and obviously higher during the day, upto 32°ish under his bulb.


 
You know this is not a horsfield don't you?
Your tortoise has some signs of pyramiding. 
Having a certain amount of moisture is needed. But also getting the husbandry correct helps too.
I use rain water (from a butt that is used all the time, and the water does not stagnate) and I see my smaller tortoises use it to drink from and bathe.
Having a moist (not wet) hide helps with hydration of your tortoise too:0)
And make your tortoise work for his/her food, by scattering it around the enclosure:0)/


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## SueBoyle

duketherussian said:


> Can anyone see the early stages of pyramiding, particularly the back central Scute? I've read it's due to dehydration but isn't necessarily bad for their health? He's always got water and it's always got mud deposits in it so he must go in, but maybe he's not taking it in. I've been researching Torts, particularly Horsefields since we got him in May, and I think I've got everything right in regards to keeping him healthy and active, but perhaps I'm missing something?
> We were overfeeding him, as indicated by the growth lines, his food was freely growing in his enclosure which I've stopped now following advice from this forum.
> He doesn't burrow at night in his indoor enclosure, which I've read is what helps keeps their shell hydrated, so maybe I should turn the heat down slightly to encourage him to burrow. It's currently not lower than 18° at night, and obviously higher during the day, upto 32°ish under his bulb.


If he is not behaving naturally then he doesn't have correct habitat. A few tweaks here and there are all you need. 18 is too high overnight for a tortoise that originates from harsh climates. People think that temps stay warm overnight if it is hot in the day, it doesn't. At the moment in the Med there are still temps of 32 in some parts and yet at night it is really cold requiring a coat at he very least and at ground level it is around 5 degrees lower, so he needs much lower temps overnight really.


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## duketherussian

purplepixie said:


> You know this is not a horsfield don't you?
> Your tortoise has some signs of pyramiding.
> Having a certain amount of moisture is needed. But also getting the husbandry correct helps too.
> I use rain water (from a butt that is used all the time, and the water does not stagnate) and I see my smaller tortoises use it to drink from and bathe.
> Having a moist (not wet) hide helps with hydration of your tortoise too:0)
> And make your tortoise work for his/her food, by scattering it around the enclosure:0)/


He has to be a Horsefield, I've spent 6 months researching them and changing his enclosures to suit 
His small size, the way he burrowed while outside and the fact he's a brilliant climber suggested he was a Horsefield? Plus he looks like any Horsefield I've seen on the web. 
We feed him weeds every other day, sprinkled with cuttlefish, and always in a different spot. I move the dividing plank of wood every month so he has to explore again. It's 4" high and he climbed over it this time, even though he's less than 4" long.


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## duketherussian

SueBoyle said:


> If he is not behaving naturally then he doesn't have correct habitat. A few tweaks here and there are all you need. 18 is too high overnight for a tortoise that originates from harsh climates. People think that temps stay warm overnight if it is hot in the day, it doesn't. At the moment in the Med there are still temps of 32 in some parts and yet at night it is really cold requiring a coat at he very least and at ground level it is around 5 degrees lower, so he needs much lower temps overnight really.


He's behaving fine, he's in the bushes, down the slight wall, over the dividing wall, through the bath, he always spends an hour or more exploring after basking. One thing I've noticed is this little tort WILL NOT go around, its either through or over. 
The bulb and tube heater go off with the timer, leaving a convector heater on a stat ticking over at night, I'll turn it down right now. What would be the minimum acceptable temperature? It's getting cold now and I don't want it dropping to a temp that is to low.


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## TillyTortoise

You definitely don't have a Horsfield's tortoise. There are some signs of pyramiding there, but the growth pattern has changed (probably when you bought it) and it looks fine. If the temperature is comfortable for you, it'll be ample for this little one.


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## SueBoyle

duketherussian said:


> He has to be a Horsefield, I've spent 6 months researching them and changing his enclosures to suit
> His small size, the way he burrowed while outside and the fact he's a brilliant climber suggested he was a Horsefield? Plus he looks like any Horsefield I've seen on the web.
> We feed him weeds every other day, sprinkled with cuttlefish, and always in a different spot. I move the dividing plank of wood every month so he has to explore again. It's 4" high and he climbed over it this time, even though he's less than 4" long.


lol, he really isn't! Where did you get him?
He is nothing like a horsfield, sadly 
Can you put pics of his underside on please?


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## duketherussian

He also has four fingers/toes?? on each limb. Another sign of a Horsefield?


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## duketherussian

http:// [URL=http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/rlakey9/media/20140629_121606_zpsqzietyrh.jpg.html][/URL]
http:// [URL=http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/rlakey9/media/20140629_124433_zps3bla2psv.jpg.html][/URL]

Here's a couple more from back in the summer when we've let him have a roam outside of his enclosure.


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## duketherussian

I'll take a pic of his underside tomorrow.


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## purplepixie

Your tortoise is an ibera.
I have kept them for over 34yrs, they are great tortoises.

The first picture certainly looks like an ibera.
But the last pictures look completely different. 
But in both pictures it shows your tortoise is definitely not a Horsfield.


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## duketherussian

purplepixie said:


> Your tortoise is an ibera.
> I have kept them for over 34yrs, they are great tortoises.
> 
> The first picture certainly looks like an ibera.
> But the last pictures look completely different.
> But in both pictures it shows your tortoise is definitely not a Horsfield.


I hope Iberas like living like Horsfields:blush:
The last two pics were taken the 29th June. The first two were taken today. Doesn't his shell look a lot duller?


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## SueBoyle

duketherussian said:


> He also has four fingers/toes?? on each limb. Another sign of a Horsefield?


Nope, that's a fallacy, sorry! He won't be burrowing either, just digging down, which is totally different.


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## SueBoyle

You should have certs for him too :blush: time to contact the supplier :gasp:


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## supatips

purplepixie said:


> Your tortoise is an ibera.
> I have kept them for over 34yrs, they are great tortoises.
> 
> The first picture certainly looks like an ibera.
> But the last pictures look completely different.
> But in both pictures it shows your tortoise is definitely not a Horsfield.


Do ibreas require a10 certs?

I thought it was a spur-thighed.


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## duketherussian

SueBoyle said:


> You should have certs for him too :blush: time to contact the supplier :gasp:


I'll be taking him over there tomorrow. I was told Hermanns or Horsfield. Everything about him points to Horsfield, but I hadn't considered Ibera. Back to the drawing board :lol2:


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## TillyTortoise

supatips said:


> Do ibreas require a10 certs?
> 
> I thought it was a spur-thighed.


Yes..


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## SueBoyle

supatips said:


> Do ibreas require a10 certs?
> 
> I thought it was a spur-thighed.


An ibera is a subspecies of one of the graecas or spur thighed Med torts. Yes you need an article 10 for it.


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## TillyTortoise

duketherussian said:


> I'll be taking him over there tomorrow. I was told Hermanns or Horsfield. Everything about him points to Horsfield, but I hadn't considered Ibera. Back to the drawing board :lol2:


If I may ask, where did you buy him(?) from? I see you are in South Wales, I live in the Vale.


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## SueBoyle

duketherussian said:


> I'll be taking him over there tomorrow. I was told Hermanns or Horsfield. Everything about him points to Horsfield, but I hadn't considered Ibera. Back to the drawing board :lol2:


I'm sorry but nothing about him says horsfield - wrong shape, coloration, habits etc As Sandy says, he is an ibera or Tgi . Husbandry is the same, but you do need certs and if they said horsfield or hermanns they were breaking the law anyway, so need to be reported as knowingly selling without certs is illegal and they will have their licence removed.


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## duketherussian

TillyTortoise said:


> If I may ask, where did you buy him(?) from? I see you are in South Wales, I live in the Vale.


Sully. The Tortoise Sanctuary.


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## TillyTortoise

duketherussian said:


> Sully. The Tortoise Sanctuary.


I'm quite surprised, worried and disappointed now..


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## duketherussian

SueBoyle said:


> I'm sorry but nothing about him says horsfield - wrong shape, coloration, habits etc As Sandy says, he is an ibera or Tgi . Husbandry is the same, but you do need certs and if they said horsfield or hermanns they were breaking the law anyway, so need to be reported as knowingly selling without certs is illegal and they will have their licence removed.


I'll have a word tomorrow when I go there. It's a non profit registered charity that works with the RSPCA and Customs and Excise . I'm sure they would know if they were breeding Iberas as opposed to Horsfields or Hermanns.
From a legal point of view, they didn't 'sell' him as such, I made a donation to their charity? Would they still need to provide papers? I'm sure it'll be cleared up tomorrow.


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## supatips

SueBoyle said:


> An ibera is a subspecies of one of the graecas or spur thighed Med torts. Yes you need an article 10 for it.


I'm not so good with subspecies. 

You answered my question earlier before I had finished asking it!


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## duketherussian

With over 20 sub species of spur thighed, some with subtle differences, how would you tell one from another? 
I suppose the spurs on his thighs are a give away that he's a spur thighed and not a Russian. :lolsign:


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## TillyTortoise

duketherussian said:


> With over 20 sub species of spur thighed, some with subtle differences, how would you tell one from another?
> I suppose the spurs on his thighs are a give away that he's a spur thighed and not a Russian. :lolsign:


Last time I checked there were 10 subspecies of _Testudo graeca_.. Unfortunately, your no spur theory has a slight floor.._ T. horsfieldii_ can have spurs.. :|


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## duketherussian

TillyTortoise said:


> Last time I checked there were 10 subspecies of _Testudo graeca_.. Unfortunately, your no spur theory has a slight floor.._ T. horsfieldii_ can have spurs.. :|


The division of spur-thighed tortoises into subspecies is difficult and confusing. Given the huge range over three continents, the various terrains, climates, and biotopes have produced a huge number of varieties, with new subspecies constantly being discovered. Currently, at least 20 subspecies are published:

T. g. graeca*(North Africa and South Spain)*(South Morocco)*(North Morocco)T. g. nabeulensis*-*Tunisian spur-thighed tortoise*(Tunisia)*(Libya)T. g. ibera*(Turkey)*-*Armenian tortoise*(Armenia)T. g. buxtoni*(Caspian Sea)*(Israel/Lebanon)T. g. zarudnyi*(Iran/Azerbaijan)*(Algeria)

This incomplete listing shows the problems in division into subspecies. The differences in form are primarily in size and weight, as well as coloration, which ranges from dark brown to bright yellow, and the types of flecks, ranging from solid colors to many spots. Also, the bending-up of the edges of the*carapace*ranges from minimal to pronounced. So as not to become lost in the number of subspecies, recently a few tortoises previously classified as*Testudo graeca*have been assigned to different species, or even different*genera.

I found this earlier, I've only been looking at Spur thighed for a few hours, I've spent the last 6 months reading about Horsfields, doh!


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## purplepixie

supatips said:


> Do ibreas require a10 certs?
> 
> I thought it was a spur-thighed.


 Spur-thigh is the common name for ibera, graeca, whitei, Tunisians, and other fancy named testudo graeca.
When you apply for a article 10 cert, DEFRA in its wisdom donot separate the subspecies. So Testudo Graeca is the technical name and spur-thigh is used the common name used by them.
I try my hardest not to use spur-thigh as its too general and can be mixed up with Spurred Thigh tortoises which are Sulcatas.


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## purplepixie

duketherussian said:


> The division of spur-thighed tortoises into subspecies is difficult and confusing. Given the huge range over three continents, the various terrains, climates, and biotopes have produced a huge number of varieties, with new subspecies constantly being discovered. Currently, at least 20 subspecies are published:
> 
> T. g. graeca*(North Africa and South Spain)*(South Morocco)*(North Morocco)T. g. nabeulensis*-*Tunisian spur-thighed tortoise*(Tunisia)*(Libya)T. g. ibera*(Turkey)*-*Armenian tortoise*(Armenia)T. g. buxtoni*(Caspian Sea)*(Israel/Lebanon)T. g. zarudnyi*(Iran/Azerbaijan)*(Algeria)
> 
> This incomplete listing shows the problems in division into subspecies. The differences in form are primarily in size and weight, as well as coloration, which ranges from dark brown to bright yellow, and the types of flecks, ranging from solid colors to many spots. Also, the bending-up of the edges of the*carapace*ranges from minimal to pronounced. So as not to become lost in the number of subspecies, recently a few tortoises previously classified as*Testudo graeca*have been assigned to different species, or even different*genera.
> 
> I found this earlier, I've only been looking at Spur thighed for a few hours, I've spent the last 6 months reading about Horsfields, doh!


 To be honest, most meds and horsfields are kept more or less the same. But with odd tweaks, here and there.
Horsfields can hibernate for much longer and lower temps than meds.
They also like to bury down a long way.
They are more vicious in their mating and fighting than most meds.
They are smaller than most meds.


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## purplepixie

duketherussian said:


> With over 20 sub species of spur thighed, some with subtle differences, how would you tell one from another?
> I suppose the spurs on his thighs are a give away that he's a spur thighed and not a Russian. :lolsign:


 When you have a few years experience at looking at different tortoise species, you do get to know one from another.
But some of the graecas it is harder when shape and colours are the same. Usually a picture of the plastron will tell which is which. But like most things some buck the norm:0) Especially if they are hybrids.


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## duketherussian

http:// [URL=http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/rlakey9/media/20141125_094533_zpszg2it4hp.jpg.html]    [/URL]


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## duketherussian

The shell isn't as dull as it seems compared to the outside pics. They were taken with a flash in brilliant sunshine, the inside pics were taken indoors on a tablet with no flash. I've bathed him this morning and washed his shell lightly with a light toothbrush. It looks brighter compared to yesterday.


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## duketherussian

I've just spoke to the Lady at the Tortoise Sanctuary where I got him from. They had Hermanns, Horsfields and Spurs at the time. They've got all the papers for the spurs. They register all the spurs with DEFRA in one go so they only pay one fee £25, instead of £25 for each individual if registered separately, and all the paperwork gets sorted now at this time of year once most of their residents have gone into hibernation. I do remember her telling me this at the time now. I'm going over later, she'll identify the breed then.


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## annsimpson1

don't forget that hermans also require papers and as the law recently changed hatchings need to be microchipped by the breeder when they reach a certain size before being sold. I think its 60mm, its ilegal to sell any species that require certs without them being chipped, this is something that should have been done to your tort if he was big enough and something you will have to have done at some point if he's not been done in order to get the paperwork in your name.


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## purplepixie

Definitely an ibera:0)


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## Shellsfeathers&fur

Glad that the most knowledgeable tortoise keepers were about to confirm the id - duketheibera is still a good name!

Or may be duchesstheibera :lol2:

Seriously though, I hope you get it sorted out with the rehoming centre. They do need to look at their rehoming rules even if you are "only" making a donation.


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## supatips

purplepixie said:


> Spur-thigh is the common name for ibera, graeca, whitei, Tunisians, and other fancy named testudo graeca.
> When you apply for a article 10 cert, DEFRA in its wisdom donot separate the subspecies. So Testudo Graeca is the technical name and spur-thigh is used the common name used by them.
> I try my hardest not to use spur-thigh as its too general and can be mixed up with Spurred Thigh tortoises which are Sulcatas.


I figured it was a Gracea. I'm not good with distinguishing their sub species though. A10's are always vague though aren't they, I don't think any of them have subspecies on do they?

I'm sure I mentioned it before but I've seen Sulcatas sold as African Spur-Thighed before now!!


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## SueBoyle

purplepixie said:


> Spur-thigh is the common name for ibera, graeca, whitei, Tunisians, and other fancy named testudo graeca.
> When you apply for a article 10 cert, DEFRA in its wisdom donot separate the subspecies. So Testudo Graeca is the technical name and spur-thigh is used the common name used by them.
> I try my hardest not to use spur-thigh as its too general and can be mixed up with Spurred Thigh tortoises which are Sulcatas.


No Sandy, it's african spurred that are sulcatas, not spur thighed:bash:


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## SueBoyle

duketherussian said:


> The shell isn't as dull as it seems compared to the outside pics. They were taken with a flash in brilliant sunshine, the inside pics were taken indoors on a tablet with no flash. I've bathed him this morning and washed his shell lightly with a light toothbrush. It looks brighter compared to yesterday.


I know you really want him to be a Russian, but he's not. There is nothing similar. Exactly like the i eras we worked with in Turkey


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## duketherussian

So, he's a she, and yes she's a Spur-thighed T Graeca Ibera, native to Turkey. The lady confirmed it immediately. She is licenced, and the paperwork will be sent to me after xmas. They register them all with DEFRA in one go as I explained earlier. 
She said my current set up is fine. :thumb:
Thanks for all the replies. Glad it's cleared up.


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## SueBoyle

duketherussian said:


> So, he's a she, and yes she's a Spur-thighed T Graeca Ibera, native to Turkey. The lady confirmed it immediately. She is licenced, and the paperwork will be sent to me after xmas. They register them all with DEFRA in one go as I explained earlier.
> She said my current set up is fine. :thumb:
> Thanks for all the replies. Glad it's cleared up.


Glad you are happy with the outcome. Did she not realise she had spare certs and how is going to be sure it's the right one? Is this Joys place by any chance?


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## duketherussian

SueBoyle said:


> Glad you are happy with the outcome. Did she not realise she had spare certs and how is going to be sure it's the right one? Is this Joys place by any chance?


The confusion was with me. When I explained my situation on the phone she said it would be either a Hermans or Spur thigh, I dont know why I thought Horsfield. She ID'd it as Spur thigh as soon as she saw it. She's also 90% sure she's female. 
All the certs are in folders, with barcodes etc. They have 400 odd residents at the moment and as you can imagine are always busy. Now with some hibernating they have more time to go through the certs and send the relevant ones to the new owners from that year. 
Its the Sully tortoise sanctuary, The International Tortoise Association. Check out their website, they also have a Facebook page. It's a brilliant set up, they got a few 12 year old giant Torts, I bet their good fun to watch grow and develop.
http:// http://www.internationaltortoiseassociation.com/


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## SueBoyle

duketherussian said:


> The confusion was with me. When I explained my situation on the phone she said it would be either a Hermans or Spur thigh, I dont know why I thought Horsfield. She ID'd it as Spur thigh as soon as she saw it. She's also 90% sure she's female.
> All the certs are in folders, with barcodes etc. They have 400 odd residents at the moment and as you can imagine are always busy. Now with some hibernating they have more time to go through the certs and send the relevant ones to the new owners from that year.
> Its the Sully tortoise sanctuary, The International Tortoise Association. Check out their website, they also have a Facebook page. It's a brilliant set up, they got a few 12 year old giant Torts, I bet their good fun to watch grow and develop.
> http:// http://www.internationaltortoiseassociation.com/


Oh, not sure if I'm allowed to say but never rated them to be honest. Their info is generally poor. There is no excuse for not giving you certs at the time. If they bred them, then it should have corresponding cert to that baby/clutch and if they just handing them out willy nilly then they are not being honest. It's not your fault, it's theirs. Spurs have certs and Russians don't, end of! How long hAve you had him and how do they think they can give you correct certs now. I've seen people being investigated for less. Shocking!


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## duketherussian

SueBoyle said:


> Oh, not sure if I'm allowed to say but never rated them to be honest. Their info is generally poor. There is no excuse for not giving you certs at the time. If they bred them, then it should have corresponding cert to that baby/clutch and if they just handing them out willy nilly then they are not being honest. It's not your fault, it's theirs. Spurs have certs and Russians don't, end of! How long hAve you had him and how do they think they can give you correct certs now. I've seen people being investigated for less. Shocking!


The paperwork was done when I bought her, I'd just forgot. There was never any chance she was a Russian, that was my mistake also. 
If you're ever in the area you should go along and have a look. It's amazing to see so many healthy looking active Torts of all sizes. Although she said my Tort is fine, theirs look so much better. They also said the UK Border Force said it was one of the best Tortoise Sanctuaries that they check on, so they must be doing something right.
I fully respect your opinions Sue and am grateful for your advice. They admit they are not experts and don't know everything, and that others have different methods and opinions, but they have over 30 years experience raising, rescuing, rehousing etc thriving Turts and Torts. I would suggest you visit if you get the chance.
I also mentioned I was worried I may have inadvertently got them into trouble by mentioning them on this forum regarding the licence, but they assured me everything was above board and they have no reason to be worried by the authorities.


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## SueBoyle

duketherussian said:


> The paperwork was done when I bought her, I'd just forgot. There was never any chance she was a Russian, that was my mistake also.
> If you're ever in the area you should go along and have a look. It's amazing to see so many healthy looking active Torts of all sizes. Although she said my Tort is fine, theirs look so much better. They also said the UK Border Force said it was one of the best Tortoise Sanctuaries that they check on, so they must be doing something right.
> I fully respect your opinions Sue and am grateful for your advice. They admit they are not experts and don't know everything, and that others have different methods and opinions, but they have over 30 years experience raising, rescuing, rehousing etc thriving Turts and Torts. I would suggest you visit if you get the chance.
> I also mentioned I was worried I may have inadvertently got them into trouble by mentioning them on this forum regarding the licence, but they assured me everything was above board and they have no reason to be worried by the authorities.


They never even completed their website from what I saw. I've been there some years ago, shortly after I moved to the borders and was not impressed then either. Vivs, poor substrates and they sell pretty pets multicoloured pellets on eBay, not a good sign at all. Hopefully they move them on quickly and you get a cert of sorts. Believe me, if you mentioned someone was enquiring about the correct certs being given, theyWILL be concerned about the outcome lol and quite rightly


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## LJSW1982

duketherussian said:


> I'll have a word tomorrow when I go there. It's a non profit registered charity that works with the RSPCA and Customs and Excise . I'm sure they would know if they were breeding Iberas as opposed to Horsfields or Hermanns.
> From a legal point of view, they didn't 'sell' him as such, I made a donation to their charity? Would they still need to provide papers? I'm sure it'll be cleared up tomorrow.


Customs and Excise no longer exists since its restructure into HMRC and Border Force. Border Force do not deal directly with any other organisations or agencies than the Animal and Plant Health Agency in Bristol. There is no link between the APHA and the organisation in Sully and the APHA are responsible for registering and enforcing CITES in the UK.

If you submit a Freedom of Information request to any of the aforementioned agencies they will provide affiliate organisations which will support this information.


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## LJSW1982

SueBoyle said:


> They never even completed their website from what I saw. I've been there some years ago, shortly after I moved to the borders and was not impressed then either. Vivs, poor substrates and they sell pretty pets multicoloured pellets on eBay, not a good sign at all. Hopefully they move them on quickly and you get a cert of sorts. Believe me, if you mentioned someone was enquiring about the correct certs being given, theyWILL be concerned about the outcome lol and quite rightly


Also OP another thing to consider is their insistence on using hemp chip (they often recommend horse bedding). This is an impaction risk and can cause fatalities if ingested by the tortoise. It is not an appropriate substrate and should be removed and replaced immediately if you are using it.


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## purplepixie

duketherussian said:


> Can anyone see the early stages of pyramiding, particularly the back central Scute? I've read it's due to dehydration but isn't necessarily bad for their health? He's always got water and it's always got mud deposits in it so he must go in, but maybe he's not taking it in. I've been researching Torts, particularly Horsefields since we got him in May, and I think I've got everything right in regards to keeping him healthy and active, but perhaps I'm missing something?
> We were overfeeding him, as indicated by the growth lines, his food was freely growing in his enclosure which I've stopped now following advice from this forum.
> He doesn't burrow at night in his indoor enclosure, which I've read is what helps keeps their shell hydrated, so maybe I should turn the heat down slightly to encourage him to burrow. It's currently not lower than 18° at night, and obviously higher during the day, upto 32°ish under his bulb.


There are early signs of pyramiding. Which is a sign of over feeding. They only need as a guide enough to cover their shells. Or what is best to allow them to graze naturally. This time of the year they should be in hibernation. This helps with normal growth, as they cannot eat natural foods, and are fed a lot of supermarket foods. Which have very little nutritional value.
Temps at night are not needed, the heat from a normal house is enough. Your temps are too high at night.:0)


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## SueBoyle

This is a very old post


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