# Silkback Bearded Dragons - Yay or Nay?



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

To me they dont look natural...what do you all think?

Google Image Result for http://www.dachiu.com/gallery/silk66.jpg


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

i personally dont like them, but a local breeder i kow has just brought a pair.


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## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

i think they look a bit weird...like someones chopped all their spikes off


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

i think id have to see one in person to really know what i think about these little guys.


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## tom1400 (Jan 21, 2007)

I wouldn't mind having one and breeding it with a 'normal' beardie and see what the outcome is. There a new morph, i think it's from in-breeding or something. Someone had a thread about these on here a few months ago. He showed us pix of the silkback and the leather back


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## monitorfan666 (Feb 15, 2007)

someones skinned a beardy

nahh there alrite
just not with the name bearded dragon lol
:grin1:


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

I personally feel its disgusting..

they cant handle UV properly... so what issues such as MBD etc wil arise...


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

why cant they handle uv?
wouldnt the scales [or lack thie rof] being less protective against the uvb simply make them not need as much of it to do well?


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

when i enquired to the breeder about them the last time i saw a thread on here about the silkbacks I was told that they could only handle a UV 5.0

heres what it says on the site... i feel also if you HAVE to restrict long periods of basking you are mucking around with their own thermo-regulation behaviour too


Care for the "Silkback" dragons *DOES* vary slightly from the general care of a regularly scaled bearded dragon. While her diet has remained the same as our other dragons, we have adjusted her husbandry by lowering her basking temperatures to a high of the upper 90s, with restricted access to long periods of actual basking time. The combination of a regular fluorescent bulb and a ReptiSun 5.0 are used for UV lighting and slightly increased humidity. 

The skin of the "Silkback" dragon is similar to that of a pinkie mouse ((or your eye lid)) in texture and fragility. Close care must be given to prevent injury and encourage a healthy shedding process.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

oh ok, well other species of lizard require lower uv and basking temps than beardies do too, i fully understand what your saying totally and at the end of the day it is a genetic fault that has been utilised for breeding purposes and then harshened by selctive breeding etc
BUT i dont think the slightly varying care goes much further than what say an albino of a given species would require and they are bred purposely also, if anything are more valuable.

All of us who keep a variation of species with varying husbandry requirements shouldnt have a problem caring for these new silk back dragons... even if they are beardies..and maybe should have been born as such... normal beardies.. maybe.

Hopefully each and everyone of them wil live a good, long life.


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

Definately don't do anything for me!


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

looks more like somebody bred their beardie with a toad.


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## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Meko said:


> looks more like somebody bred their beardie with a toad.


lol interesting comparison...can definitely see it lol


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## br9twy (Apr 19, 2007)

*Nay for me!*

The colour is fantastic but fragile skin is a big no no to me.


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## Johelian (Nov 25, 2006)

I think its awful, and the potential risks posed to the long term health of the animal concern me. It requires "slightly higher humidity" - for an animal accustomed to low humidity levels, Im not entirely sure how the respiratory system will cope. Will there be more case of URI if these animals become more widespread? Im also wondering how this poor creature would cope with a particulate substrate - beardies are diggers, and Im assuming keeping one of these on sand would aggravate its exposed soft skin. Poor wee (non)beardie.


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## Deans On Toast (Jul 2, 2007)

babygyalsw2 said:


> To me they dont look natural...what do you all think?
> 
> Google Image Result for http://www.dachiu.com/gallery/silk66.jpg


They look inside-out!


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

i do like the look of them i must admit..just not sure about the effect it would have on the dragon..?


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## linklee (Aug 18, 2007)

looks like its got sunburn!
never the less,i quite like them!


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## ashbosh (Jun 23, 2007)

NO! its horrid. poor things, they deserve better than to be deprived of their very attribute that makes them beardies!


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## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

matty__=) said:


> i do like the look of them i must admit..just not sure about the effect it would have on the dragon..?


i think they have a shorter life span


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

babygyalsw2 said:


> i think they have a shorter life span


 
i think its wrong then..


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## Muzz (Aug 3, 2007)

i don't like them i think they look alot better with "scales" lol


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## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

matty__=) said:


> i think its wrong then..


they're more prone to illness....stuff to do with uv and mbd


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

babygyalsw2 said:


> they're more prone to illness....stuff to do with uv and mbd


 
i can see the attraction with them..and think they look pretty cool..but i dont like the idea of the animal suffering..


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## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

you really think they look good? to me they look like snake/frog/skink lizardry animalia!! i really think its soo un-natural


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

yeh i do lol..not everyones the same ..kinda put off by the side effects though..


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## snakelover (Dec 17, 2006)

nay...what is the point...ecept money!?


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

lmao snakelover..why do you think ANY morphs were created and experimented with??


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## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

hmm interesting point...i wonder how much they get sold for


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Question..

As the silkback doesn't have the beard can it still be called a bearded dragon as it'd be more like a rankins wouldn't it? apart from the size if they grown to full beardie size.


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## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

i suppose the only reason it is named a beardie despite not having a beard is just the fact its a beardless bearded dragon..if you get what i mean. same lizard just very awkwardly morphed


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

lol yeah i know what you mean. It was bred from a beardie and has no beard


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

how did they create it,does anyone know? was it just a freak of nature and then selectively bred?


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## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

hmm im not sure how they did it...but theres lots of pages on google about silkbacks. i dont think it was a freak of nature...i think someone actually came up with it


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

so they though *right i wana make a scaleless beardy..ill do this the the eggs*..?


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## snakelover (Dec 17, 2006)

shut up matty! lol


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## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

no idea but id shoot the person who thought it was a good idea


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## cazzie (Jan 3, 2008)

nay from me, i suppose they could make good additions, but then i feel my eyelid like they say they feel like and though i dont mind how it feel, imagine if it got hurt or cut? i mean big ouch, eyelids are sensitive enough without it being the sensitivitey of your whole body i think its wrong to breed the scales from a beardie.

However saying this and prodding my eyelid once more, it would be awsome to actualy be able to feel it breathe more easily and possibly its heart beat:whistling2: but then brings up the question of its its skins to delicate for creatures with such large attitudes and that like to climb :/


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

imagine if a cricket, locust etc bit it >_<


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## Jade01 (Feb 21, 2007)

i think the colour on them is fantastic, but im not sure whether i like the idea of a scale-less beardie....

kinda goes against the idea of being a reptile lol!


anyone saw the pics of the scale-less snakes? they are really cute, but the same problems arise with them aswell i think


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## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm still very much undecided - I've never seen one in the flesh, nor have I worked with one for the weeks / months that you would need to before you could make an informed judgement on whether it's right or wrong.

Physically, I find it less appealing than a regular beardie, but the genetics of it fascinate me, as does the morph potential of the Leatherback, the Het form; it wouldn't surprise me if scientists don't get some embryos growing in a lab to study at various stages - the fact that something goes "wrong" with scale construction during development may help scientists to understand what usually happens, which would further out knowledge of the species, and of reptiles in general.

From what I understand, it was not "created" by genetic manipulation (if it was, it would be patented, and no-one would be breeding them except the "creator"). Given that animals produced by splicing in genes from other genomes (e.g. GloFish) are not legal for sale in the EU, I wouldn't have thought that it could have been created.

I assume it would be a mutation to cause the Leatherback, which was then used to create the super form - a Silkback. No more inbreeding will have gone into this morph (contrary to popular belief) than into any other morph that uses recessive / co-dom genes (there's probably been less, since it's co-dom and thus easier to outcross more thoroughly, given that you have a convenient "het" marker - you can do several generations of LB outcrossings before putting two distantly related LB animals together to produce SB).

As previously stated, I've never handled a Silkback, but, even though it's skin would be less tough, it wouldn't be *that* fragile - I imagine it would be tougher than a Naked Mole Rat (which burrows with no problems), and as tough as most mammals' skin is. The underbelly of a bearded dragon is far more fragile than their backs are, and yet they have no problems with abrasions, even on very rough rocks. As long as consideration was given to cage setups, I don't see why it would be any more unhappy than a regular beardie...


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Rainwater said:


> hmm im not sure how they did it...but theres lots of pages on google about silkbacks. i dont think it was a freak of nature...i think someone actually came up with it


No more than someone "came up with" snow corn snakes. 

The Leatherbacks were a chance mutation that cropped up. Now, putting one leatherback to another leatherback to see what happened, THAT is how silkbacks came about and yes, in that respect people created them. 

But they sure didn't get out their Junior Genetics Kit and splice in some dino DNA to get them - they just allowed two animals who carried the same random mutation to breed together. Yup, there was inbreeding involved. But then, there's been a lot of inbreeding in beardies in general, since there haven't been any wildcaught animals to outcross to for a number of years.


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## Finch (Sep 14, 2007)

I can understand peoples views on them but i think the look alright.


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## Kami22 (Apr 21, 2008)

*Nay*

um... I dont personally like them but each to their own! and wouldnt a beardless bearded dragon just be a dragon lol.

As a geneticist I would say that this came from a spontaneous mutation and then a course of very harsh selective breeding.


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

Kami22 said:


> As a geneticist I would say that this came from a spontaneous mutation and then a course of very harsh selective breeding.


But that's the advantage of co-dom morphs, you need very little inbreeding to figure it out, and then you can outcross immediately and easily. There would have been far less inbreeding with these Dragons than any of the colour mutations.


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## rick01 (Apr 3, 2008)

I've been in touch with both Dachiu and an Italian breeder Allessandro (I believe he produced the first silkback) in part this is from Dachiu 



> Hi Rick,
> 
> Sorry for the delay, its been extremely busy here. Alessandro did produce our silk... She is about 1 1/2 years old and about 400 grams. She has been vacationing with a few experience keepers the last 5 or 6 months and has thrived well in each of the different set ups. (Trying to get opinions, based on first hand observations from other reptile keepers.)
> We do not use high output UVB bulbs here, but keep our animals under 5.0 tubes and they can get within 12 inches of the light. We haven't seen any visible damage due to UV burns. Alessandro may take his outside so he may have more info with natural sun exposure. We also do not keep our adult dragons under very high prolonged heat....
> ...


Talking with Allessandro - he confirmed that the first silkies were an unexpected development from leatherbacks and that his breeding program does include regular crossing back to a more "standard" lizard. 
Andy if you want I've still got Allessandro's e-mail address somewhere and can pass it on.

Rick


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## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

That would be useful if it's at hand, Rick. I've been half-heartedly looking for it this morning, but don't really have the time to sit around and search for his site...


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

Alessandro is a good guy, and was very helpful to me last year (for almost a year!) while we sorted out my Leatherbacks.


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## biohazard156 (Nov 11, 2007)

I think they look awful. I have no problem with morphs of things, and there are plenty out there, but this seems to cause the animal to have different needs to it normally would and I just can't agree with it. I don't think there is a need to produce more animals like this..and it seems the only reason they are produced is a money thing. Poor Beardies, bring back the spikes!


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## rick01 (Apr 3, 2008)

Andy, Pm'd you.


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## beardieLOVE (Apr 12, 2008)

i dont really like them there like wanna be beardies


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Ally said:


> Alessandro is a good guy, and was very helpful to me last year (for almost a year!) while we sorted out my Leatherbacks.


If you don't mind me asking, what are the Leatherbacks like in person - and do you plan to breed them? I'm not all that interested in wildtype beardies, but I could be tempted by a Leatherback ... they just LOOK so much nicer in the photos I've seen! That, and I like smoother scales like geckos and tegus, not so keen on spiny pointy lizards.


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> If you don't mind me asking, what are the Leatherbacks like in person - and do you plan to breed them? I'm not all that interested in wildtype beardies, but I could be tempted by a Leatherback ... they just LOOK so much nicer in the photos I've seen! That, and I like smoother scales like geckos and tegus, not so keen on spiny pointy lizards.


Just like any other Beardie! They eat me out of house and home and do massive, smelly poos - just like my more spikey ones...!
Here are the most recent pics that I have - http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/97773-my-beardies-how-they-ve.html
The female lives with two normal-spiked females and is just one of the gang (as was the male until he got to a risky age!) They do have beard-spikes, just much smaller than the normal ones, I do love the way they look...
As to whether I'm going to breed or not, probably not just yet. The male (leatherback) will go with all three females when they're ready, but I'll probably destroy the eggs from the female Leatherback for now until I know where I want to go with it, or buy her her own normal male of course!

The only other thing I'm going to worry about with breeding them is people that are going to want to buy a pair - how to explain the fall out that will happen when they breed Silkbacks...
(obviously being co-dom/het, 50% of every clutch to the other two females will be leatherback, so I will have babies at some point)
The Leatherbacks are related by Grandfather, the other two females are from differant lines altogether.


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## Thrasops (Apr 15, 2008)

Wow, they've grown loads and look absolutely stunning!


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## Catherine896 (Jul 27, 2007)

I think they look scary lol.


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## Razaiel (Oct 17, 2006)

No, not for me. Definitely unnatural.



Meko said:


> looks more like somebody bred their beardie with a toad.


Exactly what I thought when I saw it.



Johelian said:


> I think its awful, and the potential risks posed to the long term health of the animal concern me. It requires "slightly higher humidity" - for an animal accustomed to low humidity levels, Im not entirely sure how the respiratory system will cope. Will there be more case of URI if these animals become more widespread? Im also wondering how this poor creature would cope with a particulate substrate - beardies are diggers, and Im assuming keeping one of these on sand would aggravate its exposed soft skin. Poor wee (non)beardie.


Agreed. And there's also the basking issue. Only 90 degrees? How about proper digestion of food? I would have thought that might be a problem too.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Razaiel said:


> Agreed. And there's also the basking issue. Only 90 degrees? How about proper digestion of food? I would have thought that might be a problem too.


Isn't it possible that we keep and grow normal beardies at too HIGH a temperature (which does make them grow much faster, but are they SUPPOSED to grow that fast?) 

The originator of the morph keeps ALL his beardies with a basking spot of 93 degrees fahrenheit - silkbacks, leatherbacks, normals - and from what I've read, they don't have any problems digesting either.


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## Razaiel (Oct 17, 2006)

Well that is good that they are doing well. I was just wondering as it is a choice thing for the creature. I keep my rankins dragons from temps ranging from 120 basking right down to 75 ambient in the cool end so they can choose exactly what temp they want.


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## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Isn't it possible that we keep and grow normal beardies at too HIGH a temperature (which does make them grow much faster, but are they SUPPOSED to grow that fast?)
> 
> The originator of the morph keeps ALL his beardies with a basking spot of 93 degrees fahrenheit - silkbacks, leatherbacks, normals - and from what I've read, they don't have any problems digesting either.


It's perfectly possible - wild beardies apparently seek to control their temperature at around 93f (which is presumably where Alessandro got his temperature from). Interestingly, captive dragons seek to maintain their temperatures at nearer to 96f; it's not clear why, but it's possible that it's due to the founder effect / bottleneck that beardies underwent when first introduced to captivity; I assume that the study that found the 93f preferred temperature in wild beardies didn't monitor every part of their range, so it's possible that in some parts of their range, they prefer hotter temperatures etc...

As to keeping them too hot, as long as there's a cool end, they can self-regulate. Mine have 110-115f basking spots (which are rarely used, except for early-mornings / after handling); using an IR temp gun I've found that all of my dragons self-regulate to keep their temperatures in the mid-90s, despite the opportunity to go higher than that.

A silkback that has a basking spot of 95-100f will reach the desired temperature (96f, assuming they follow regular captive beardies) much faster than a scaled animal, due to the reduced shielding. Offering dragons basking spots of over the 96f that they want to be at helps them get to their desired temperature faster, before they open their mouth / leave the spot. A dragon that is scaled (shielded) and only has a 100f basking spot may take the best part of the day to reach 96f; it can do it in an hour or two (from cold) with a 115f basking spot. When the shielding is removed, there is less need for a hot basking spot, and it could possibly be dangerous for them to have one, due to the increased rate at which they'd burn. However, a basking spot of 95f-100f will allow them to reach their desired temperature, and should allow for good digestion. Assuming that captive dragons are capable of full functionality at 93f (as seen in the wild), a 95f basking spot should suffice for a silkback...


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

of course..assuming theres no genetic "die at this age" or anything stupid then i dont see why they cant be kept and do really well.

Maybe more of an ambient air temp over a direct heat from a basking bulb at closish range would also help? [like a che or similar with just a mini basking spot, less directly penetrating than the standard basking bulb.]


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## RepMad189 (Feb 22, 2008)

*F-u-g-l-y*

I think it is Fugly.... like a some deformed turtle that has been kicked out it's shell. Sorry if it's rather harsh but i am not one to sit on the fence nor does it seem are most people on here :lol2:


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## jimmythetramp (Jul 6, 2009)

they no longer look like a beardie!!! it's kind of selective breeding gone horribly horribly wrong! it looks like something you'd expect to find in a dark cave, dont like it one bit


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

No real selective breeding involved - certainly no more than went into making guineapigs or amelanistic corn snakes... scalelessness is fairly well documented in wild-caught animals, even adults.


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## Martha.Kirby (Oct 4, 2009)

aww they are all wrinkly.. :flrt: no actually i don't really like them..:lol2:


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## jimjam1977 (Apr 30, 2009)

i've seen one in real life and they feel really smooth... personally i wouldn't have one... think beardies look better with scales!


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## AuntyLizard (Feb 7, 2007)

I personally think silkbacks are gentics gone too far! I dont like them and would never own one. I do however like leatherbacks.

Liz


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## xKatyMx (Feb 9, 2008)

*:O*

Poor Things 
Whoever Decided To Breed These Had To Have Something Wrong With Them!:whip:
Surely They Wouldn't Be Able To Deal With The Uv?
I Don't Even Like Leatherbacks But That Is Just Not Nice!:bash:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Surely you can cope with UVB on your bare skin, especially the poor excuse for natural sunlight that a fluorescent tube emits?

Until there have been silkbacks around long enough to have lived out their normal lifespan (or failed to do so) we cannot make any judgement on their fitness.


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