# Puppy Help Please...



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

I know there are alot of doggy people on here! 

Just have a quick question!!...

the puppy keeps biting the children/chasing the children - and us adults. Its only playing - we know this, BUT it is scaring the children - and me, and he is ruining clothes, and furniture. 
we have tried many techniques..

- walk away - he thinks its a game, and run alongs side you and bites you more
- stand still - he carries on biting 
- yelp/say no in a stern angry voice - he will launch at you, bark and snap continuously - its really rather scary. he now scares me.

yesterday ellie was hiding behind me, and he was snapping and launching at me and ellie - both ellie and i were scared. 


what do you suggest to stop this biting/launching when being told off ?


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## Dannii (Feb 27, 2009)

What type of dog is it?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

freekygeeky said:


> I know there are alot of doggy people on here!
> 
> Just have a quick question!!...
> 
> ...


 

If he was mine he would get a quick shake by the scruff while growling no at him. This behaviour should never have been allowed to start so now it needs fixing as quickly as possible


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> If he was mine he would get a quick shake by the scruff while growling no at him. This behaviour should never have been allowed to start so now it needs fixing as quickly as possible


 i wouldnt be allowed to do this  --- my boyfriend however had enough yesterday and grabbed him by his collar and tapped him on the nose - he then barked and launched at my boyfriend. 

he is only 9/10 weeks old


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

Shell195 said:


> If he was mine he would get a quick shake by the scruff while growling no at him. This behaviour should never have been allowed to start so now it needs fixing as quickly as possible



Can only agree with Shell, needs to be stopped ASAP.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

i just dont think id be allowed to do this...

it has only started in the last two days --- and only seems to happen when he is really hyper - in a crazy moment.


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## Dannii (Feb 27, 2009)

Allowed to do this? .. That type of dog is he?


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

Dannii said:


> Allowed to do this? .. That type of dog is he?


not my dog


golden retriever / standard poodle


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

if he is in your care and you don't like it... don't vare for him any more.. or insist that if you continue his care you be allowed to take this course of action...


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

Rach1 said:


> if he is in your care and you don't like it... don't vare for him any more.. or insist that if you continue his care you be allowed to take this course of action...


yea i did talk to the owner yesterday about it - she is ringing up a trainer/behaviourist today - ill find out at 2 - when i start - what she said


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

I'd probably be scruffing it, pinning it and then chucking it into a 'timeout' situation for 10 mins. 'Allowed' wouldn't come into it...


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

I'd shut him in another room for a while to calm down.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

em_40 said:


> I'd shut him in another room for a while to calm down.


thats what i had to do yesterday - i refused to have him bite meee


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## Michelle G (Feb 27, 2008)

This sounds just like Bailey as pup...I looked like I was self harming with those sharp pin like teeth and he ruined so many of my clothes that I used to live in a hoody and PJ bottoms when in the house. 

We tried afew techniques but the one that worked for us was when he tried to nip...we would swap hand for toy and say 'NO....get a toy'. If he didnt listen then he would go into timeout but slowly the toy swap got better and better to the point that he learnt the phrase go get a toy which we used as soon as he started to get giddy and to this day if we say 'go get me a toy' he charges off and comes back with something. 

I will say though...if you see him going to nip although its human instinct to pull away quickly, it actually hurts more by doing this and if you leave your hand there you will find the nip is more of a mouthy suck its just the teeth that catch your hand as you pull away. I did spend time when Bailey was relaxed letting him mouth my hand gently and as soon as he nipped I would say NO and take my hand away so he learnt the difference between what will hurt and what wont....at the end of the day puppies are teething and investigate by taste they just need to learn inhibition.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

thankyou

yea we have been trying something similar - when he is biting i get him a toy and shov it in his mouth, we knew biting would happen - hes a puppy after all, but its the lunching/biting/barking that i dont like 


Michelle G said:


> This sounds just like Bailey as pup...I looked like I was self harming with those sharp pin like teeth and he ruined so many of my clothes that I used to live in a hoody and PJ bottoms when in the house.
> 
> We tried afew techniques but the one that worked for us was when he tried to nip...we would swap hand for toy and say 'NO....get a toy'. If he didnt listen then he would go into timeout but slowly the toy swap got better and better to the point that he learnt the phrase go get a toy which we used as soon as he started to get giddy and to this day if we say 'go get me a toy' he charges off and comes back with something.
> 
> I will say though...if you see him going to nip although its human instinct to pull away quickly, it actually hurts more by doing this and if you leave your hand there you will find the nip is more of a mouthy suck its just the teeth that catch your hand as you pull away. I did spend time when Bailey was relaxed letting him mouth my hand gently and as soon as he nipped I would say NO and take my hand away so he learnt the difference between what will hurt and what wont....at the end of the day puppies are teething and investigate by taste they just need to learn inhibition.


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## Michelle G (Feb 27, 2008)

freekygeeky said:


> thankyou
> 
> yea we have been trying something similar - when he is biting i get him a toy and shov it in his mouth, we knew biting would happen - hes a puppy after all, but its the lunching/biting/barking that i dont like


I read when investigating techniques for Bailey that labs are one of the mouthiest of pups becasue they are bred to retrieve, alot of people dont expect it because they are recommended as family dogs. Bailey is part lab. I wonder if the same would apply with a golden retriever as they are very similar dogs and retrievers? x


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

Michelle G said:


> I read when investigating techniques for Bailey that labs are one of the mouthiest of pups becasue they are bred to retrieve, alot of people dont expect it because they are recommended as family dogs. Bailey is part lab. I wonder if the same would apply with a golden retriever as they are very similar dogs and retrievers? x


yea very true, both golden and poodles are retrivers i think...


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

If it's really getting above its station, as it sounds like with the biting and snapping, then I, personally, would also scruff it and pin it- keep it down till it relaxes, then let it back up.

Unfortunately because it's not your dog its going to be difficult to sort. No dog of mine would ever be allowed to get anywhere near that naughty, but I have had to pin other aggressive dogs before (working in a grooming parlour) and it has worked. 

The puppy needs firm but fair discipline and wayyyy more respect for humans by the sounds of it. 

Is it mollycoddled by the owner?


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

SexyBear77 said:


> If it's really getting above its station, as it sounds like with the biting and snapping, then I, personally, would also scruff it and pin it- keep it down till it relaxes, then let it back up.
> 
> Unfortunately because it's not your dog its going to be difficult to sort. No dog of mine would ever be allowed to get anywhere near that naughty, but I have had to pin other aggressive dogs before (working in a grooming parlour) and it has worked.
> 
> ...


just loved! loved by everyone! lol


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## kirstie rose (Mar 8, 2009)

SexyBear77 said:


> If it's really getting above its station, as it sounds like with the biting and snapping, then I, personally, would also scruff it and pin it- keep it down till it relaxes, then let it back up.
> 
> Unfortunately because it's not your dog its going to be difficult to sort. No dog of mine would ever be allowed to get anywhere near that naughty, but I have had to pin other aggressive dogs before (working in a grooming parlour) and it has worked.
> 
> ...


I agree, exercise discipline then affection no touch no talk no eye contact. are the words of Ceaser Milan but it works. Obviously the pup thinks it rules the roost. When/if it happens again pin it down On it's side in silence which is making it Submit to you, the more noise you make the more excited the pup gets. When it truley submits it should stay on it's side willingly without being held down. When it's calm submissive then give affection in a quiet calm manner.


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

Our GSD pup was like that, we tried all the usual stuff that you said, but that was whilst it was just puppy nipping, I wouldn't let her nip me but my brothers thought it was fun till it started to hurt, eventually it escalated into lunging and snapping, which with young children in the house was simply not acceptable! 
I did what most have suggested, scruffed her and pinned her down until she calmed down, then she was ignored. Eventually she came up to me very meekly and sat near me. She's never lunged or snapped at a person since, she wouldn't dare. 
The only nipping is when we wrestle on the floor, and she knows thats only me and how hard she can nip.

I also agree with Rach, if you are caring for the puppy then you should have full right to discipline him. I'm by no means an expert but firm but fair works, and set the ground rules. If I give Oz an inch, she takes a mile :whip:


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## boerboel_1984 (Mar 17, 2008)

If you are worried, consult a knowledgeable behaviourist. It's all very well people guessing what to do but one behaviour can have a number of different origins. It could stem from high prey drive, fight drive and a lack of understanding of what you want among others, and it can also be a combination of these things. I am certainly no expert but have spent time around some VERY experienced and knowledgeable people who have some very extreme dogs. 
Firstly aim to target this drive onto a tug toy. Allow the puppy to win- this builds confidence (do not believe the never let the dog win rubbish), however teach a good release command. By building this drive you will have a tool to train the dog- tug can be a reward. Keep commands calm, quiet and consistent. As far as compulsion (physically making a dog comply) via scruffing etc, please be aware that, if performed incorrectly, in some dogs it can have unwanted effects such as fear biting and, in some serious dogs, aggression towards the handler.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

I have to say I would not ever scruff a dog, and as to the reply about aggression ?Sexy bear? It is a puppy, not aggressive!!

Often the best way to get a dog to NOT do something is to get it to do something else. I would teach it something to do instead, literally like the Get a toy, or Go to your bed (and take it by its collar to the bed if necessary) or even just Sit or Settle. Obviously teach these not just in a situation where the dog is hyper.

To be honest though it sounds like it is getting over excited, the job of the person caring for it (and looking after the children) is to be observant, learn the signs and step in and let the dog calm down a stage or two BEFORE it gets to the point where it is lunging and nipping. Of course it goes without saying there will always be an adult present right, because no child should be left unsupervised with a dog.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Kare said:


> I have to say I would not ever scruff a dog, and as to the reply about aggression ?Sexy bear? It is a puppy, not aggressive!!


Please endeavour to read posts properly- I said I have had to pin other aggressive dogs before- notice how that was after I spoke about my own dogs? I am aware it is a puppy, hence why I used the words "getting above its station". Nowhere did I say that that particular dog is aggressive.

However, biting/lunging/snapping at people to the point where they are actually afraid needs some swift, firm action- and I very much believe in treating dogs like dogs, not spoilt children. 

The words "but it's only a puppy" are all very well and good until it goes and puts a hole in someone's face.


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## boerboel_1984 (Mar 17, 2008)

Kare said:


> I have to say I would not ever scruff a dog, and as to the reply about aggression ?Sexy bear? It is a puppy, not aggressive!!
> 
> Often the best way to get a dog to NOT do something is to get it to do something else. I would teach it something to do instead, literally like the Get a toy, or Go to your bed (and take it by its collar to the bed if necessary) or even just Sit or Settle. Obviously teach these not just in a situation where the dog is hyper.
> 
> To be honest though it sounds like it is getting over excited, the job of the person caring for it (and looking after the children) is to be observant, learn the signs and step in and let the dog calm down a stage or two BEFORE it gets to the point where it is lunging and nipping. Of course it goes without saying there will always be an adult present right, because no child should be left unsupervised with a dog.


Good advice, especially the bit about redirecting with a command. Puppies can show aggression (eg fear, food or resource guarding and even dominance), but some of the forms of aggression seen in adult dogs such as same sex aggression can be ruled out.


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## Stephen17 (Jun 14, 2011)

Both my puppies done it, gave them a blanket to hump and they were both fine.


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

SexyBear77 said:


> The words "but it's only a puppy" are all very well and good until it goes and puts a hole in someone's face.


I have to agree! People ask us why we keep Jazzy on a long-line as her recall is (largely) very good and we explain that when she was 5 months old, she play-nipped a young child - thankfully no damage was done and that's when we got a trainer in, so the parents of the child let it slide because we were clearly devastated, we were addressing the issue, and 'she was only a puppy'. Now, if she'd been an adult dog and done it, I imagine the outcome could have been much worse.
We still don't trust her around children and she's 10 months old now. She still mouths a fair bit despite our best efforts to stop it and we do warn people before they go down to stroke her, but they always use that magical phrase that's starting to irritate us: "Oh it's alright, she's still only a baby". She won't be forever!


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

Ophexis said:


> I have to agree! People ask us why we keep Jazzy on a long-line as her recall is (largely) very good and we explain that when she was 5 months old, she play-nipped a young child - thankfully no damage was done and that's when we got a trainer in, so the parents of the child let it slide because we were clearly devastated, we were addressing the issue, and 'she was only a puppy'. Now, if she'd been an adult dog and done it, I imagine the outcome could have been much worse.
> We still don't trust her around children and she's 10 months old now. She still mouths a fair bit despite our best efforts to stop it and we do warn people before they go down to stroke her, but they always use that magical phrase that's starting to irritate us: *"Oh it's alright, she's still only a baby".* She won't be forever!


Ozzy was getting to the point of drawing blood on us, so I made the decision that it needed correcting quickly which is why she got pinned, it wasn't practical to challenge it into something else, it would take too long. However after she was pinned she was still nipping, which is then when I could channel it into something else.

I have to say, that phrase makes me want to punch the person that said it. On our dog walking group on the park, no dog is allowed to jump up and they have to do something to earn a treat, all dogs that is but Ozzy, she's a puppy so doesn't have to obey the rules :bash:


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

he did it again today twice, and nearly bit my bosss face.

scruffing didnt work, as soon as she let go he lunged at her.

he bit her hard on nuerous occasions, and wouldnt back off, he didnt want toys, he wouldnt listen to a VERY FIRM no, nothing worked. 

he also went for the kids today - puppies bite - 100% they do... but this is 100% NOT playing - its aggression..

she's really worried. the local behaviourist / trainer wont answer her bloody phone either! AH


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

freekygeeky said:


> he did it again today twice, and nearly bit my bosss face.
> 
> scruffing didnt work, as soon as she let go he lunged at her.
> 
> ...


Muzzle it till you can get help if there is no other way of protecting yourself. 

That is ridiculously bad behaviour. Better to muzzle it than to have it bite someone then get put down.


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

freekygeeky said:


> he did it again today twice, and nearly bit my bosss face.
> 
> scruffing didnt work, as soon as she let go he lunged at her.
> 
> ...


Are you 100% sure its aggression? Could you possibly video it, though I understand if its unpractical. I personally would contact a behaviourist, it needs stopping and stopping now. Have you tried ringing the breeder for some tips as well, did your boss meet the parents?


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

SexyBear77 said:


> Muzzle it till you can get help if there is no other way of protecting yourself.
> 
> That is ridiculously bad behaviour. Better to muzzle it than to have it bite someone then get put down.


ahhh 



cloggers said:


> Are you 100% sure its aggression? Could you possibly video it, though I understand if its unpractical. I personally would contact a behaviourist, it needs stopping and stopping now. Have you tried ringing the breeder for some tips as well, did your boss meet the parents?


yes i am. i cant video it i wopuldnt want to loose my job! ahh... my boss asked ti see the parents but they were --- on a long walk........

the reason they went with the breeder was that their friend had a bitch from a litter a few years back.


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

only thing i can add to the other posts is to maybe try a water spray, ever time he does something that you dont want give him a quick spray of water. this is the only way i managed to stop my pup chasing the cat , all i have to do now is show him the bottle if he is doing wrong ... just to add he still loves swimming in the river just hates the water bottle ..... may help but may not but worth a go.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

mask-of-sanity said:


> only thing i can add to the other posts is to maybe try a water spray, ever time he does something that you dont want give him a quick spray of water. this is the only way i managed to stop my pup chasing the cat , all i have to do now is show him the bottle if he is doing wrong ... just to add he still loves swimming in the river just hates the water bottle ..... may help but may not but worth a go.


yea i was thinking bOUT this as it works for my cats BUT he loves water! he especially loves the super soakers!


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

freekygeeky said:


> yes i am. i cant video it i wopuldnt want to loose my job! ahh... my boss asked ti see the parents but they were --- on a long walk........
> 
> the reason they went with the breeder was that their friend had a bitch from a litter a few years back.


Fair enough, I thought it may be unpractical. The fact that they haven't seen the parents would concern me to be honest..
I'd recommend keeping him away from the kids until the behaviourist can assess him : victory: Did you try giving him a time out every time he got stroppy?


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

cloggers said:


> Fair enough, I thought it may be unpractical. The fact that they haven't seen the parents would concern me to be honest..
> I'd recommend keeping him away from the kids until the behaviourist can assess him : victory: Did you try giving him a time out every time he got stroppy?


we have done a few times yup..


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

freekygeeky said:


> we have done a few times yup..


Think you need to choose a method and stick to it. Nothing will be a quick fix frst try. I'd personally stick with time-out in a different room, with his bed in it, and the command 'bed'. (Teach the command using treats etc. in the day, when he is not being naughty too.)
Keep the dog muzzled if needs be though.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I would NEVER muzzle a young puppy, he just needs a short sharp lesson in respect and manners. Consistency is needed so eveyone needs to be doing the same thing and not just sometimes but all of the time The problem is people get a cute baby puppy and laugh as it bumbles about mouthing and growling, if its taught from the beginning what is acceptable behaviour and what isnt these problems dont arise.
Gina, please make sure the owners get the help they need before this puppy becomes another statistic


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## boerboel_1984 (Mar 17, 2008)

For now, remain calm, no running, high pitched noises. Do not try to correct the behaviour with force as you may be making it worse. Reward good behaviours calmly. When the pup misbehaves calmly lead it to an isolated room and leave for about 10 mins. Also find a good behaviourist.


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## jeweled lady (Aug 25, 2009)

Do you have the use of a cage for time out? Is most of the ourbursts in the evening after being fed?

I do think the pup needs to be seen by a dog trainer/behavourist to help the family to train it correctly, then get it booked into a good training class for puppies. Providing a nice raw meaty bone will help to relieve any stress, as it can chew that for a few hours instead of you. Also doing bits of training with it throughout the day will help it to settle. Dogs that are distructive and mouthy do not seem to have built up a relationship with their owner/leader.

I had a very young puppy come to me yesterday with it's very frustrated owner. It is a deaf staffy 10 weeks. It rushed around the room into everything, no attention at all. Once I got the owner working with it on attention, it was like the light came on, communication! In less than an hour it was sitting, lying down, doing recalls and walking beside the owner. They are so receptive to training at this age. Obviously this crossbred pup has no idea how to behave, as a lot of children don't seem to! They have to be taught the boundrys and the sooner the better.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Gina, after reading this whole thread, I get the feeling there's no consistency. You keep saying that you've "tried this" and "tried that" or "we sometimes do that"... You need to pick what will work for everybody involved and stick to it. And EVERYBODY has to be doing it... The kids, too, because they are higher than the puppy in the hierarchy. He's only been home for a couple weeks, max, so you (and I am using the term "you" to include everybody) can't have been consistent with anything if you've tried all these different methods.


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## iiisecondcreep (Oct 29, 2007)

Sounds just like one of my mums dogs when he was pup. He's a giant schnauzer and he was a horror as a pup. I'm pretty sure it was due to lack of training and socialising which people on here agreed with, they wanted to 'let him be a puppy' whereas everything I read about giant schnauzers said they need proper training from day 1 as they are big, strong, intelligent and VERY energetic. They had no excuses she and her partner have both had dogs for many years. 

He is almost 3 now and has calmed down a lot (has since been castrated and also has another dog as a friend), but has still never been trained and he still has his moments and jumps all over any guests when they first come in and 'mouths' hands and arms. And no one wants jumped on and chewed by a 7stone dog :neutral:


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Puppies should not be let to get away with things, which it seems is what some thought my post meant, but the attitudes that this puppy is trying to get one over on someone, or be in charge, or even that it is aggressive is never going to put this person or the dogs family in a good frame of mind to deal with it.

It is a puppy doing the only thing it knows to get the things it desires or needs in a world and situation it has only just come into. It is doing its best. It is not sitting on its bed planning household, then world domination and it is not planning new ways to hurt humans. 

Both breeds are dogs that work closely with people, it is genetically programmed to want to make humans happy. It sounds like all involved need to learn from someone how to teach a dog, so calling the dog trainer/behaviourist is a good start for the humans to learn, before what the dog is learning from them goes even further off track. When you/they can teach it what you want without rough handling it, which will lead to fear and defensive aggression, and the pup understands what you need from it I am sure it will be happy to oblige.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I agree with most of what has been said by most people.

The puppy needs *absolute* consistency - everyone in the household needs to be "singing from the same hymn sheet" and treating the puppy exactly the same. It sounds like you've tried a method, it hasn't worked after a few attempts, so you've tried another one - it's going to take more than a couple of attempts at anything to teach the puppy what you expect from it.

As Kare says both breeds are dogs that work closely with people, both are genetically programmed to _want_ to make humans happy and to work for them. They are working breeds after all and working breeds are intelligent dogs, so structure is important for them, otherwise they'll quickly learn all the wrong behaviours and then it's harder to correct.

Both breeds are also quite excitable breeds, especially when puppies, so the puppy is going to be excited and young children will add to that excitement, so this behaviour is bound to escalate if you can't nip it in the bud now.

I don't so much think the puppy needs a behaviour expert or a dog trainer I think it's the humans who do, so they get it right for the puppy.


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

I agree with what the other ladies have said on this page.

He really needs to know what to do and its down to you to teach him, all of you, the same thing, otherwise he is just getting really confused by it all.

As said he is a mix of two working breeds so is going to need allot of imput and things to keep his mind occupied.

Is he going to training lessons? If not I would sign him up asap.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Shell195 said:


> I would NEVER muzzle a young puppy, he just needs a short sharp lesson in respect and manners.


When I was a wee kid we had a lovely puppy called Max, a rescue collie x. 

He was a little nippy when we first got him, but some lessons in manners worked wonders and within a week or so he was much calmer and more gentle.

One day my mother had a friend and her daughter (same age as me) over for tea and cakes. The daughter and I were playing together in the front room, with the adults, when the daughter accidentally stepped on Max's tail.

He jumped up and lunged, missed her, but bit me right through the lower jaw and punctured my face about 0.5cm under my left eye. 

I was hospitalised and Max was put down that day at the mother's insistence because he was a danger to other kids in the area- it was that, or call the authorities. 

They know this puppy is a bad biter of both children and adults- if they cannot stop it soon, muzzle it in the meantime.

Better to muzzle the puppy for a while than end up with a kid in hospital and a dead dog. 

*Better safe than sorry. *


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## dizzylynn (Jul 30, 2010)

We have a 15 week old pup westie, now these dogs are stubburn hard headed and really can be a handfull if this behavour is allowed to continue, so we approached it the day we got her, we dont need to smack her, this is forgotten to quickly, they need you to repeat over and over like children to learn, a firm NO may not work to start with but if you keep it up it will work, dont tug this only helps them think its all a game, the way we do it with Bonnie is to pull her jaws apart(without hurting her) if she has a good grip of something, clothing and feet she stopped going for after about 2 weeks, she still forgets but a quick reminder and she gets it. If it helps to remove the pup from the kids for periods of time, they need their own space too, while you do your housework etc put her in a room on her own for little while, make sure its safe. I dont know if others agree with this but this is how we dealt with aggressive behavour, pinned her, without hurting her, just held her down on the floor, when felt her relax we let her go, this stopped her aggressive nature real fast. Not needed to do it since she was about 9 - 10 weeks old. 
Also find if bonnie picks something up shes not meant to have, rather than chase her to get it I ask her to show me what she has saying "what you got there, let me see" she gives me it then she is rewarded for giving me it, if she goes for something and I see her before she gets it I just clap my hand and say no, she goes and gets her own toys or walks away and lies down. We have been doing it this way since we got her, hubby didnt do the let me see part and lost head many times trying to get something off her, watched me take seconds and he has changed to doing it that way too lol. ​


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## dizzylynn (Jul 30, 2010)

marthaMoo said:


> I agree with what the other ladies have said on this page.
> 
> He really needs to know what to do and its down to you to teach him, all of you, the same thing, otherwise he is just getting really confused by it all.
> 
> ...


Dogs that are working breeds HAVE to be kept busy, catch with a ball, tug of war games, training, walks, run around park everything about their day has to stimulate them if they get bored thats when the aggressive distructive behavour starts. My friends hubby got a border collie few weeks older than Bonnie, and she's finding him hard to manage, so she asked me for advice, loads of games with him, dont just stick him in a room with toys, thats not going to do him any good, human contact loads of activities. She cant really do this as she has a toddler hopefully her man starts takign him fishing with him so he is kept busy.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

SexyBear77 said:


> When I was a wee kid we had a lovely puppy called Max, a rescue collie x.
> 
> He was a little nippy when we first got him, but some lessons in manners worked wonders and within a week or so he was much calmer and more gentle.
> 
> ...


 
Maybe a muzzle could be used for an older puppy but this one is only 9/10 weeks old ! He needs to be taught right from wrong by firm consistant training. Ive got 10 dogs from small breeds up to large breeds and they all have excellent manners and know that biting humans is unacceptable even in play
I think that the excitement of having a new puppy has allowed the owners to not forget about training and for this little one to think that its ok to play rough.
Gina am I right in thinking this is the families first dog?


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## dizzylynn (Jul 30, 2010)

Alot of folks get dogs and dont realise they need the same as young kids, to be tought right from wrong, to be trained to stay down and not bite etc. Even in play we dont let our dogs bite, I am more strict than my hubby I dont even like them to play growl or bark. If they show teeth even in the game the game stops.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Shell195 said:


> Maybe a muzzle could be used for an older puppy but this one is only 9/10 weeks old ! He needs to be taught right from wrong by firm consistant training. Ive got 10 dogs from small breeds up to large breeds and they all have excellent manners and know that biting humans is unacceptable even in play
> I think that the excitement of having a new puppy has allowed the owners to not forget about training and for this little one to think that its ok to play rough.
> Gina am I right in thinking this is the families first dog?


Look, I totally agree that muzzling the puppy is going over-board.

I totally agree that the puppy needs some serious firm training- unfortunately though, it isn't getting any.

There are with kids around, by the sounds of it the owner doesn't have a clue, and the puppy (seemingly) bites badly, and bites hard. That, to me, is a very dangerous situation. 

Its safety I've got in mind, nothing more, nothing less. I personally wouldn't dream of muzzling a dog in my care at that age (and we have had some horrors) but I'm waiting for a message on here saying that the dog has either bitten a stranger and is being destroyed, or its bitten one of the kids and torn its face.

Worst case scenario, maybe, but in my own experience just not worth the risk. 

: victory:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

my new pup was doing the very same thing... typical puppy... she has stopped now... she's 3 months old... when she starts with the biting i just tell her "NO"!... i taught her NO and her name right off the bat...

her real training begins in september... but for now she's just allowed to be a puppy with only house breaking, her name and NO being taught to her...

i take her outside and play with her a great deal as well as inside... she gets plenty of things to chew on and i have her learning the daily routines...

puppies are worthless... nothing's developed very well... tiny attention span... full of energy... they can only be taught a few things until they develop more... but "NO"! and their name is the first things that i teach a puppy...

no means no...


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## dizzylynn (Jul 30, 2010)

Ours still needs work with the name, but NO she understands lol heard it enough. She knows sit, I do 10 mins clicker training with her a few times a day, 10 mins is all she can manage without being distracted. Bess our older dog is one of the best behaved dogs in the area, hubby has had loads of great comments about how well she behaves when out and walks off the leash comes bk when she is told 1st time, and sits at each road waiting for command to cross. Hubby has changed alot, he used to play rough with our dogs in the past, but I stopped this as one of our dogs turned nasty years ago, I blamed him not the dog, so he's not allowed to play rough and encourage snapping etc in play, also 1 of the reasons I refuse to get a rottie, as he can still get carried away now and again, sometimes wonder whos the kid in the house him or the kids.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

dizzylynn said:


> Alot of folks get dogs and dont realise they need the same as young kids, to be tought right from wrong, to be trained to stay down and not bite etc. Even in play we dont let our dogs bite, I am more strict than my hubby I dont even like them to play growl or bark. If they show teeth even in the game the game stops.


You are right, however what is done is done and I have to say although in the right hands she could be fixed and on the right road very very quickly, the fact is these people seem to lack that ability due to lack of experience and there is the childrens safety to consider.

Teaching her right now is going to be a lot harder than them having got it right in the first place, and I have to say if they were my kids I would admit that maybe we made a mistake and overstretched ourselves and rehome her whilst still young to a home with experience and without children where her needs can be better met for the dogs sake and most importantly the childrens safety.


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

At 9-10 weeks old it isn't the pup that needs a behaviourist, it's the owners. There is a lot of good sound advice that has been given, so no need to repeat i all. You just need to pick a method and run with it, consistently, until things improve, once a dogs behaviour becomes so severe, there will be no 'quick fix' its the owners responsibility to work with the dog and others around it for as long as it takes to rectify the problem.


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## dizzylynn (Jul 30, 2010)

Here's me saying shes doing well, out for our walk, Bess heard a bus brake so ran away home typical, theres me with a empty leash and the pup, walking along she gets off for 5 mins on stretch of path with no roads thats usually quiet, she sees a little girl come out her house, over she goes straight into the house to see who will give her cuddles, no matter how many times I called her back, she looked at me went to come back then thought nah want cuddles from the strangers grrrrrrrrr. Cheeky wee lady.


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

dizzylynn said:


> Here's me saying shes doing well, out for our walk, Bess heard a bus brake so ran away home typical, theres me with a empty leash and the pup, walking along she gets off for 5 mins on stretch of path with no roads thats usually quiet, she sees a little girl come out her house, over she goes straight into the house to see who will give her cuddles, no matter how many times I called her back, she looked at me went to come back then thought nah want cuddles from the strangers grrrrrrrrr. Cheeky wee lady.


your just teaching her bad habits by letting her off-lead, you need to have established recall before hand. It may make recall training harder with her knowing that she gets freedom before learning that being called back to you is a must.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i had snapping at faces/biting badly from my lab pup when i got her - i think her issues are mostly down to lack of socialisation and bad upbringing before i got her - but she was 3 1/2 months old and very capably of hospitalising someone.

i managed to get her to stop biting in a couple of weeks by scruffing her, saying `no` in a firm voice and crating the little :censor: for 1/2 an hour till she`d calmed down.

get a crate. its the best advice ever.

is the pup on the loose 24/7? 
pups need quiet time to sleep and grow.
imo having the pup around all the time isnt a good idea, when the children are playing like nutters and screaming about with their friends the pups going to get over excited and behave badly.......he needs boundaries, to learn whats acceptable.

whats cute and funny now isnt gonig to be in 6 months time when he`s a big boisterous dog and capable of real damage.

if its their first dog they would bvrobly have been better off with a bitch imo.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

puppies are very hard work... if you're doing it right...

mine is about 13 weeks now... she's beginning to get her mind about her... before 12 weeks a pup just doesn't have much ability to do things... it takes patience and clear, consistant directions... they have no attention span... no impulse control... and each dog and breed is different... 

puppyhood is just something to get through without damaging the dog...

mine decided to cop a squat right in front of me yesterday... she went to the door and i thought she was just going to sit and lay down... but she decided to do a #2 right there... i caught her right in the middle of her deed and gave her a couple of sharp "NO's" and jumped up, leash in hand and took her out to the grass... i got through to her as her eyes got big and she stopped poo'ing when i said NO... immediately after being taken outside she pee'd and then fininished her poo... then i praised her lavishly and played with her a while...


it takes time with a puppy... but things come together after a while..


helps to have a smart dog... some dogs like people just aren't that bright...

you can't put too much on a puppy... puppyhood is about learning how to be a dog and developing... all those muscles and things are brand new... a pup has to learn how to use everything... running and jumping and growing... letting their brains wire themselves...

getting up at 0-dark-thirty to walk my pup is a hassle... but she can't be dropping puppy bombs in the house... or pee'ing on the carpet...

it's hard if you're doing it right...


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## dizzylynn (Jul 30, 2010)

Evilshiddenclaws said:


> your just teaching her bad habits by letting her off-lead, you need to have established recall before hand. It may make recall training harder with her knowing that she gets freedom before learning that being called back to you is a must.


She comes to me when I call her at home, hubby says she comes when off leash, I train her out in the garden and she comes each time, and in the house, I wasnt letting her off on her walks it was hubby that says she is fine comes back, ok must be me she was taking the ***** out of then lol. Bess walks off the leash but shes older and always comes bk when called, just if she is spoked by a bus break she turns round and runs back to the house scared. Keeping pup on leash from now on tho.


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## dizzylynn (Jul 30, 2010)

HABU said:


> puppies are very hard work... if you're doing it right...
> 
> mine is about 13 weeks now... she's beginning to get her mind about her... before 12 weeks a pup just doesn't have much ability to do things... it takes patience and clear, consistant directions... they have no attention span... no impulse control... and each dog and breed is different...
> 
> ...


Our Bonnie is crated through the night in the kitchen, she goes down at 11 approx, then up at 7 - 8 we use the pads for little accidents in teh crate but she hardly does anything, as long as she goes out before bedtime, and as soon as she is let out we take her into the garden, if she cries through the night we dont go to her this only makes her worse later. We also wont let her out the crate till she calms down and sits. Takes a few mins now but used to take ages. 
She was stuck in all afternoon, took kids to burnt Island would have took the dogs but our older dog is scared of loud noices so thought not good idea with all the shows she would be very scared. Need to see whats making her fear of banging worse, she has been very flighty with bangs outside lately.


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## anitapaws (May 3, 2008)

I am a dog behaviourist, and agree that it should be tackled a.s.a.p. you need to stand very still with your arms folded, not looking at the dog, and keep turning away, even if you end up going in circles, but be quiet and controlled in your movements. The puppy needs to be calmed down before it gets to hyper pitch so it doesn't keep happening, as you see it getting over excited, just stop and be calm and quiet, again arms folded not looking at him. Hope that helps


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

dizzylynn said:


> She comes to me when I call her at home, hubby says she comes when off leash, I train her out in the garden and she comes each time, and in the house, I wasnt letting her off on her walks it was hubby that says she is fine comes back, ok must be me she was taking the ***** out of then lol. Bess walks off the leash but shes older and always comes bk when called, just if she is spoked by a bus break she turns round and runs back to the house scared. Keeping pup on leash from now on tho.


if you know your dog gets 'spooked' you should keep it on a lead, just my opinion of course, it takes a split second for a dog to dart across a road and get knocked down. it's never a big deal until you have thousands of pounds worth of vet fees or even worse, a dead dog. please keep your dogs under control. my dog walks quite nicely beside me when on or off the lead but to and from the 'off-lead' part of his walk he is always on his lead, i couldnt live with myself if he was suddenly spooked and hurt himself or any others.

i've had one dog who was on a lead, pull me suddenly right in front of a car, he was carried to the vets, who were thankfully just round the corner, by myself and the driver but unfortunately had to be put to sleep, i'll never forget that, never. and he was on the lead, walking nicely, completely under control, then all of a sudden he took the notion to just charge with all his strength straight in front of a car... it can happen to even the best looked after dogs.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

This puppy is 9 weeks old!! How long have you even had it? A week? Maybe two? You can not have tried everything. It's a perfectly normal puppy, puppies bite, it's just what they do. I've fostered god knows how many dogs and pups here and all the pups have bit me.
What you need to do is always play with the pup with a toy, never with hands only, if he does bite then yelp like a hurt puppy, then leave, walk out of the door and shut it behind you. Count to 10 then re-enter and resume play. Do this every time it happens, it may take a few weeks, but it will be fixed for good.
Do not scruff the puppy, do not pin it or smack it on the nose, these are not good training techniques for many reasons.
Make sure the pup is getting plenty of exercise, play games, teach fetch, tire him out and there'll be no energy left for biting.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

My retriever walks to heel when off lead (more so than when on lead) and we were walking just along a quiet lane next to a hospital clinic at night, ie a closed building with no one around I thought, until a small terrier on a flexilead (oh how I hate those things, 90% of the time it attached at each end to a clueless person and an untrained dog) jumped out and went for her and scared her out of the lane and into a road, luckily it was the end of an event in town and the road was so chocker the cars were crawling along. 

Never again will my dog not be firmly attached to me, no matter how good she is other people/things can screw it all over for you.


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## jeweled lady (Aug 25, 2009)

Dogs must be under control at all times in a public place and that means on the lead on roads and paths, generally anywhere the general public are. No way can any dog be safe walking free in the road or on a pavement. How many people have Public Liability for their dogs I wonder?


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

jeweled lady said:


> Dogs must be under control at all times in a public place and that means on the lead on roads and paths, generally anywhere the general public are. No way can any dog be safe walking free in the road or on a pavement. *How many people have Public Liability for their dogs I wonder?*


I do, I personally believe it should be mandatory!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

puppies are babies... they don't have a lick of sense...

you can't expect much from them till they get older... my new pup cries when the old lady leaves... i ignore her... she deals with it and settles down... i hook her to her lead line outside for periods of time... she cries a bit then settles... i go to the door and check on her now and then... let her see me... then i go inside... i go outside and walk around but not interact with her... just ignore her yelps... she settles down after a few and watches me... i go inside...

over and over... she never knows when i'm just passing through or am going to play with her... i mix it up...

she hardly cries now... just a few protest yelps... then she accepts being alone... 

she won't bite now... she'll gently maw my hand... nothing hard... if she bites too hard i tell her, "NO" and give her a second to think... and she ends up just licking me...

she understands... typical puppy she was two weeks ago... cried when she was alone... cried and cried... now she's fine with it... she used to bite like a crocodile when i got her in typical puppy fashion... now she gentle and knows biting won't be tolerated...

her real training won't start for a few weeks... she's only 3 months old...

puppies are hard to teach when they are around many people... it should be almost a one-on-one thing...

kids and puppies don't mix well... maybe for a little playtime... that's about it...

man it takes work and patience raising a good dog... and extreme consistency and routine...


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

can i just ask how old the puppy was when it was taken away from its mum? 
a mother dog plays a huge role in teaching puppys correct behavior 
i would agree about scruffing or replicating the bite like ceser Milan does i had to do it with the puppies we got. 
do you know another dog you could trust to correct the puppie when it bites ect?
my gf has just got a puppy and at the moment my two dogs are correcting it when it bites too hard or shows teeth ect 
luckily they also correct him if he does it to a person. 
a puppy will also understand a dog correcting it much more than they understand corrections from people as well


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## jeweled lady (Aug 25, 2009)

cloggers said:


> I do, I personally believe it should be mandatory!


Well done you. These days if a dog steps out of line even slightly, the police can be at your door. Just a slight nip on a child and the parents can sue you. A dog causing an accident and you could be in big trouble.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

123dragon said:


> i would agree about scruffing or replicating the bite like ceser Milan does i had to do it with the puppies we got.


Cesar Milan is not a trainer or behaviourist. He has no education in dog behaviour and has taken dog training back 50 years.
Here's some articles on it -
Bristol University
Spirit Dog
Esquire - Misguided Expert of the Year
Ian Dunbar

Find a real trainer to replicate like Karen Pryor or Ian Dunbar. These people have spent decades learning and researching dog behaviour, have more letters after their name than most doctors and really know how to train dogs long term.


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## jeweled lady (Aug 25, 2009)

HABU said:


> puppies are babies... they don't have a lick of sense...
> 
> you can't expect much from them till they get older... my new pup cries when the old lady leaves... i ignore her... she deals with it and settles down... i hook her to her lead line outside for periods of time... she cries a bit then settles... i go to the door and check on her now and then... let her see me... then i go inside... i go outside and walk around but not interact with her... just ignore her yelps... she settles down after a few and watches me... i go inside...
> 
> ...


I expect alot from puppies from as soon as they get to their new homes. Nothing like starting early. As soon as they have have had their jabs, which can be from 10 weeks these days, training can start at classes. Very young pups are easy to train and soak the info up like a sponge. It's when they get older and more confident that it takes time. Building up that relationship with learning and play is so important, it's like imprinting. People just do not realise how easy it is when they are young and think they will leave it till a bit older. Trouble is bad habbits start to develop and then it is harder to rectify them. One in particular is walking on the lead. If you don't start in the garden, when they go out they start pulling on the lead. So much can be done at home.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

jeweled lady said:


> I expect alot from puppies from as soon as they get to their new homes. Nothing like starting early. As soon as they have have had their jabs, which can be from 10 weeks these days, training can start at classes. Very young pups are easy to train and soak the info up like a sponge. It's when they get older and more confident that it takes time. Building up that relationship with learning and play is so important, it's like imprinting. People just do not realise how easy it is when they are young and think they will leave it till a bit older. Trouble is bad habbits start to develop and then it is harder to rectify them. One in particular is walking on the lead. If you don't start in the garden, when they go out they start pulling on the lead. So much can be done at home.


puppies are babies... their brains aren't well developed... too much too soon will tramatize them very often...

like trying to teach an 18 month old how to mow the lawn...

i believe a pup needs to play and learn to use it's body... after all, they've only really had a body for a few weeks... the muscles and nervous system needs exercise, input and stimulation to develop to it's full potential... their brains are wiring themselves in early puppyhood... that takes time and stimulation... pups are half -baked really...

like a toddler. pup needs play and bonding... that's learning... nature has it right... there's plenty of time to train a dog... i don't much like the term "play"... teach or raise is better...


there are just a couple basic things a pup needs to be taught... you build a solid foundation of trust, socialization and self esteem... with that a young dog will want to please you by doing right... much like a small child wants you to be proud of them and confidently try new things...

you always have to remember that a pup at 12 weeks old has only really been aware of the world for a ridiculously short amount of time... everything he sees or does is a first... sees a cat or a rainstorm for the first time...

you have to housebreak them... teach them their name... what "NO" means... play with them... bond with them and let them grow... you don't send a kid to first grade right after it has learned to walk... a child has a few years to just play and learn about this place it was born into....

puppies have no bad habits just as an 18 month old baby has no bad habits... it's a baby...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Devi said:


> Cesar Milan is not a trainer or behaviourist. He has no education in dog behaviour and has taken dog training back 50 years.
> Here's some articles on it -
> Bristol University
> Spirit Dog
> ...


 
i disagree... cesar knows his stuff... unlike that victoria chick...


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I'm neither pro nor anti Cesar Milan, because a lot of his stuff makes sense and I'm sorry but imao having letters after your name doesn't make you an expert and not having letters after your name doesn't mean you aren't.

Not everyone learns through academia - the university of life has a lot to contribute towards how good anyone is at their chosen subject, especially in subjects that require common sense more than scientific equations.


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

feorag said:


> I'm neither pro nor anti Cesar Milan, because at lot of his stuff makes sense and I'm sorry but imao having letters after your name doesn't make you an expert and not having letters after your name doesn't mean you aren't.
> 
> Not everyone learns through academia - the university of life has a lot to contribute towards how good anyone is at their chosen subject, especially in subjects that require common sense more than scientific equations.


Same here : victory:

I watch the dog whisperer, sometimes I turn it off, others I think that ain't such a bad idea.

No one trains their dog the same way as someone else, one thing works for one person another for someone else. I don't solely use Cesar's techniques and I don't solely use the positive reinforcement techniques, I use a mixture of the two. 
Some things can be managed in a positive manner, I was told to ignore any bad behaviours and just praise the good by one trainer, so she want's me to let my dog lunge and snap at other dogs? I did it my own way, using a mixture of positive with treats and praise, but also discipline when needed. It works for me, and I can now walk down a street with just a growl and hackles raised, but a sharp NO and a light tug on the lead snaps her out of it and stops her from lunging, when we walk past calmly she gets a biscuit and an ear scratch. 

Trial and error is crucial, most people will find just because you can train one dog one way doesn't mean you can train them all that way.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

there's rewarding and positive reinforcement and there's bribery and begging... you can't give a dog the power to decide things... a dog must comply without thinking about it or deciding...


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

You have to ask yourself what sort of person is scared of a 10 week old puppy........????


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## FreddiesMum (Jan 10, 2007)

Marinam2 said:


> You have to ask yourself what sort of person is scared of a 10 week old puppy........????


I wonder is that your opinion because you dislike the OP :hmm:10 week old pups can do damage they have teeth!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

a 10 week old puppy has needle teeth... they have to be taught to not bite and gnaw on people...

they just don't know any better... you have to teach them that biting will not be tolerated... that takes a bit of effort and patience... i did it in a week...

my hands are free of bites and scratches... it took a little while... but it's routine stuff...


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## dizzylynn (Jul 30, 2010)

HABU said:


> i disagree... cesar knows his stuff... unlike that victoria chick...


 
I do believe Cesar is great, he may not be educated in dog training but its not just about education, its about your inner feelings, if your stressed or have no confidence round your dog it knows that, same as they know fear, they sence it in your voice and your body. 

As for Bess she is not normally like this, but the last week or 2 she is increasingly became fearfull, neighbours cutting there grass or in their garages drilling and she bolts home, this is before she gets out the street, I dont cross any roads as its a circle, its only the initial getting her round the 1st corner, it could be the end of her season false pregnancy (gets done next month) as she is also like this at the start of a season, she is always under control, she cant walk far infront call her back constantly and she comes and sits, her leash is in hand incase we feel she needs it, she walks better without it. 
She isnt natured to be a nasty dog, (yes they all can be, but would take alot for her to turn) she has been attacked 3 times on and off the leash on her walks, few years ago since the gsd attacked her last that scared hell out her for months, she wouldnt even go near the area it happened. 
It knocked me over to get to her and hurt us both.


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## dizzylynn (Jul 30, 2010)

FreddiesMum said:


> I wonder is that your opinion because you dislike the OP :hmm:10 week old pups can do damage they have teeth!


Its not fear I think, some folk are scared of dogs regardless of age I agree, and there teeth can do more damage than some fully grown dogs because they are soooo sharp.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

dizzylynn said:


> I do believe Cesar is great, he may not be educated in dog training but its not just about education, its about your inner feelings, if your stressed or have no confidence round your dog it knows that, same as they know fear, they sence it in your voice and your body.
> 
> As for Bess she is not normally like this, but the last week or 2 she is increasingly became fearfull, neighbours cutting there grass or in their garages drilling and she bolts home, this is before she gets out the street, I dont cross any roads as its a circle, its only the initial getting her round the 1st corner, it could be the end of her season false pregnancy (gets done next month) as she is also like this at the start of a season, she is always under control, she cant walk far infront call her back constantly and she comes and sits, her leash is in hand incase we feel she needs it, she walks better without it.
> She isnt natured to be a nasty dog, (yes they all can be, but would take alot for her to turn) she has been attacked 3 times on and off the leash on her walks, few years ago since the gsd attacked her last that scared hell out her for months, she wouldnt even go near the area it happened.
> It knocked me over to get to her and hurt us both.


 
all i know is that cesar does most of the things and has the same approach as i always had... way before there was a cesar...

stuff i learned on my own with my dogs years ago...

it's simple stuff... some so-called experts make it complicated...


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

People are seriously arguing for untrained people over trained professionals? Sorry but it might work in the movies but it does not work in real life, would you be operated on by a doctor who had 'taught himself'? Or live in a house built by someone with no training? Think about any other profession and see if it makes sense there.
Dog behaviour is a science and Cesar is dangerous. He has a show because what he does is dramatic, people love to see him fighting a struggling pit bull to the ground.
The only thing he knows how to do is force dogs into shutdown and that can cause no end of problems.


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## dizzylynn (Jul 30, 2010)

There was one few years ago, called "end of my leash", I just wanted to hit the man, he was quilified, he shouted at the owners of the dogs and the dogs, it was more fear based training I felt, some of his ideas worked eg putting long leash round your waist to stop them pulling and for other things cant remember what else he used it for, I did that with bess years ago to stop her pulling me, and it worked, but cant do it with new dog now as I broke my pelvis 2 years ago so dont have same balance and strength as I had then, but his attitude was horrible shouting at anyone is not acceptable.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Devi said:


> People are seriously arguing for untrained people over trained professionals? Sorry but it might work in the movies but it does not work in real life, would you be operated on by a doctor who had 'taught himself'? Or live in a house built by someone with no training? Think about any other profession and see if it makes sense there.
> Dog behaviour is a science and Cesar is dangerous. He has a show because what he does is dramatic, people love to see him fighting a struggling pit bull to the ground.
> The only thing he knows how to do is force dogs into shutdown and that can cause no end of problems.


 
talk about being dramatic....


you have to make an aggressive, powerful dog submit... submission isn't "shutting down"... it's surrendering... something dogs do with one another...

you can't empower an out of control dog... you can't feed that state of mind... allowing a dog to own things, people and feel superior to any human is the dangerous thing to do... you can't "nice" your way with a dog that sees you as inferior or as his property... that'll get someone killed indeed.


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## dizzylynn (Jul 30, 2010)

HABU said:


> talk about being dramatic....
> 
> 
> you have to make an aggressive, powerful dog submit... submission isn't "shutting down"... it's surrendering... something dogs do with one another...
> ...


I agree, I had to pin Bonnie her 2nd week, she got super agressive cos I tried to take something off her, got it but she was still growling and trying to attack me, so I pinned her, didnt hurt her in anyway, just held her down till she relaxed, her breathing changed she let out a big sigh, I slowly let go and she stayed there, had to do it about 4 - 6 times in all, she hasnt repeated the behavour since then. So it works, I dont believe its all as easy as it looks tho, after all its edited to 30 minute shows, no way it is that quick and easy, its not easy and there probs are plenty of bad bits that dont get aired. Were not stupid we know its not all "easy and real" its all about work, I think the show is more to help people see they can do something and be better pet owners, its not the end of the dog when they hit a problem, if your willing to put the time in you can change a dog (and an owner) thats why I watch it, not because I agree totally, but because its a reminder that we can do better by our dogs, we can be better as owners.


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## dizzylynn (Jul 30, 2010)

I think some of the old fashioned ways dont work either, like rubbing there noses in it if they have an accident, would you stick a toddlers nose in there pee or poo if they had an accident, no you wouldnt dont agree with rubbing a poor dogs nose in it, alot however still believe that works, as soon as they wake up or finish a game take them out or after feeding, catch it before it happens instead of sticking nose in it afterwards. Also dont like folk hitting them in the face, seen that a few times, would you like a slap in the jaw for something you dont understand.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

HABU said:


> talk about being dramatic....
> 
> 
> you have to make an aggressive, powerful dog submit... submission isn't "shutting down"... it's surrendering... something dogs do with one another...
> ...


It's not about 'letting dogs feel superior'. The human is always superior by default because they have hands to open the food packets! 
Submission as Cesar uses the word is not natural, it is forcing the dog to be afraid and that creates a situation where the dog will do nothing for fear of doing the wrong thing. It is a highly stressful situation for the dog and is one of the most likely causes of unpredictable aggression.

And dizzylynn, Brad Pattinson has no qualifications, he is an animal abuser put on tv for the same reason Cesar is, drama.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

no i did not answer this way because i dislike the OP profusely. I would answer this way regardless unless the OP showed a genuine fear of dogs to begin with.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Devi said:


> It's not about 'letting dogs feel superior'. *The human is always superior by default because they have hands to open the food packets! *
> Submission as Cesar uses the word is not natural, it is *forcing the dog to be afraid *and that creates a situation where the dog will do nothing for fear of doing the wrong thing. It is a highly stressful situation for the dog and is one of the most likely causes of unpredictable aggression.
> 
> And dizzylynn, Brad Pattinson has no qualifications, he is an animal abuser put on tv for the same reason Cesar is, drama.


 you have it all wrong... a dog can see you as his property... and your job is to feed him... a dog can own the couch... the entire house even... and it's not about fear... it's about dominance... you have to be the boss; the leader... everyone has leaders and bosses in their life... they don't get that way by you fearing them... it's their status... do you fear your boss at work?... but his status is being in charge and your superior...

your boss at work isn't your boss because he gives you food... he is just recognised by you as the one in charge...


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

this puppy has no boundaries can I ask what age it came away from mum and siblings? some people wont agree with what Im about to say but its always worked with my lot, if I puppy wont stop biting even with warnings - I growl and push it away, then i will bite the pup on the ear, not hard just enough for it to realise biting me will be punished, if you watch a bitch with her litter she will warn with growls and false bites were she will nudge the pup, but if it still carrys on she will give it a quick nip. also when playing with its siblings and one gets carried they will nudge and yelp basically saying "OIII that hurt" 

this puppy sounds like it didn't have enough time with its mum and siblings to learn manners! this is a reason I now don't rehome any of my pups till there 10 weeks to give them plenty of time to learn some manners


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

dizzylynn said:


> I think some of the old fashioned ways dont work either, like rubbing there noses in it if they have an accident, would you stick a toddlers nose in there pee or poo if they had an accident, no you wouldnt dont agree with rubbing a poor dogs nose in it, alot however still believe that works, as soon as they wake up or finish a game take them out or after feeding, catch it before it happens instead of sticking nose in it afterwards. Also dont like folk hitting them in the face, seen that a few times, would you like a slap in the jaw for something you dont understand.


 
i agree entirely... slapping a dog around and sticking their noses in "accidents" is counter productive... stupid really.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

HABU said:


> you have it all wrong... a dog can see you as his property... and your job is to feed him... a dog can own the couch... the entire house even... and it's not about fear... it's about dominance... you have to be the boss; the leader... everyone has leaders and bosses in their life... they don't get that way by you fearing them... it's their status... do you fear your boss at work?... but his status is being in charge and your superior...
> 
> your boss at work isn't your boss because he gives you food... he is just recognised by you as the one in charge...


You do things at work in exchange for money. Dogs do things in exchange for privilege. You teach the dog what it needs to do in order to receive food, toys, treats, and it will happily comply. No physical stuff needed. Same as kids really, we used to think that every kid needed the cane to behave, but now we realise that we don't. Knowledge moves forward.
Dominance theory was debunked years ago, wolves in the wild live in family packs and the 'leader' is usually a parent or grandparent of the others.
Please go read some Karen Pryor or other research books that have been written by qualified people and learn about the canine mind, then make up your own mind whether it's better to train with punishment or with praise.


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## dizzylynn (Jul 30, 2010)

HABU said:


> you have it all wrong... a dog can see you as his property... and your job is to feed him... a dog can own the couch... the entire house even... and it's not about fear... it's about dominance... you have to be the boss; the leader... everyone has leaders and bosses in their life... they don't get that way by you fearing them... it's their status... do you fear your boss at work?... but his status is being in charge and your superior...
> 
> your boss at work isn't your boss because he gives you food... he is just recognised by you as the one in charge...


 
None of my dogs are scared of me, and I only needed to pin my pup a few times, Bess has never been pinned as she has never shown aggression. Also making them fearfull, have you watched pack animals behavour, the alpha pins any other member if it is out of line, not saying we pin them constantly but if its needed once or twice and done properly there is more good than harm from it, alot may use it and abuse it, I'm saying these things have to be done right with you in the right frame of mind as well, scaring a dog is beating it, screaming at it, throwing things at it or using weapons even a news paper is something to fear, but a few mins holding it down without hurting it causes no pain, and doesnt scare them IF DONE PROPERLY, its teaching them your the boss and you wont give in to them. 

I take it brad is that fellas name from end of my leash if not then I am totally lost.


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## dizzylynn (Jul 30, 2010)

Devi said:


> You do things at work in exchange for money. Dogs do things in exchange for privilege. You teach the dog what it needs to do in order to receive food, toys, treats, and it will happily comply. No physical stuff needed. Same as kids really, we used to think that every kid needed the cane to behave, but now we realise that we don't. Knowledge moves forward.
> Dominance theory was debunked years ago, wolves in the wild live in family packs and the 'leader' is usually a parent or grandparent of the others.
> Please go read some Karen Pryor or other research books that have been written by qualified people and learn about the canine mind, then make up your own mind whether it's better to train with punishment or with praise.


Dissagree with the no physical stuff, I have an aggressive autistic son, who has had to be held on many occations by me, by social workers and by TRAINED staff at his school, each child is different as is each dog, some may require a firm hand (not hit or kick) just held in place breifly till all is calm, some may not need this as with my other autistic son we have never had to hold him in anyway he calms with words.


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## jeweled lady (Aug 25, 2009)

HABU said:


> puppies are babies... their brains aren't well developed... too much too soon will tramatize them very often...
> 
> like trying to teach an 18 month old how to mow the lawn...
> 
> ...


I agree with a lot you say but animals and human children learn best when they are young that is a know fact. What you are forgetting is that puppies mature at an amazing rate compared with a human baby and are fully grown from 8 months. These days we do reward based training and puppies hardly know that they are being trained, it is all based on fun for dog and owner with food and play. 

I have been training dogs and owners for years and by the time they have done their eight week course puppies are well socialised with other dogs and people, learn to watch and interact with their owners, can do sit and down and 10 second stay or longer, recalls on and off the lead indoors and out and are learning to walk correctly on the lead. They also learn food manners and give up articles on command, remain relaxed and confident while being groomed and handled. All this can be achieved by five months as long as the owners put in their homework and do a few minutes aday. 

What we don't want are naughty puppies that tear the place apart because they don't have bones to chew on, or are bored and not stimulated by their owners who are too lazy to spend time training/playing and introducing them to new things.


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## dizzylynn (Jul 30, 2010)

jeweled lady said:


> I agree with a lot you say but animals and human children learn best when they are young that is a know fact. What you are forgetting is that puppies mature at an amazing rate compared with a human baby and are fully grown from 8 months. These days we do reward based training and puppies hardly know that they are being trained, it is all based on fun for dog and owner with food and play.
> 
> I have been training dogs and owners for years and by the time they have done their eight week course puppies are well socialised with other dogs and people, learn to watch and interact with their owners, can do sit and down and 10 second stay or longer, recalls on and off the lead indoors and out and are learning to walk correctly on the lead. They also learn food manners and give up articles on command, remain relaxed and confident while being groomed and handled. All this can be achieved by five months as long as the owners put in their homework and do a few minutes aday.
> 
> What we don't want are naughty puppies that tear the place apart because they don't have bones to chew on, or are bored and not stimulated by their owners who are too lazy to spend time training/playing and introducing them to new things.


Bonnie hasnt been to any classes and I have her sitting on command, lies down to commond, stays for about 30 seconds then comes to me and sits, comes on command in the garden and house (most of the time), not really done it on walks tho to many new exciting things to see and meet, she has been groomed, nails clipped, and allows me to look in mouth and ears. If she picks something up shes not meant to have i dont chase her I ask her to show me, and she does, she gives me it then I give her a treat or a cuddle for being good. She's not to food aggressive or bothered about food round her so thats not an issue havent dealt with it, but if might need dealt with. For now she is out 4 times a day, meets the neighbours daily and their dogs, and has games with us daily, as well as her chill time to sleep and grow.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

bosshogg said:


> this puppy has no boundaries can I ask what age it came away from mum and siblings? some people wont agree with what Im about to say but its always worked with my lot, if I puppy wont stop biting even with warnings - I growl and push it away, then i will bite the pup on the ear, not hard just enough for it to realise biting me will be punished, if you watch a bitch with her litter she will warn with growls and false bites were she will nudge the pup, but if it still carrys on she will give it a quick nip. also when playing with its siblings and one gets carried they will nudge and yelp basically saying "OIII that hurt"
> 
> this puppy sounds like it didn't have enough time with its mum and siblings to learn manners! this is a reason I now don't rehome any of my pups till there 10 weeks to give them plenty of time to learn some manners


I don't think id want a mouth full of dog hair but totally dog language is the only thing a puppy understands.


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

Devi said:


> You do things at work in exchange for money. Dogs do things in exchange for privilege. You teach the dog what it needs to do in order to receive food, toys, treats, and it will happily comply. No physical stuff needed. Same as kids really, we used to think that every kid needed the cane to behave, but now we realise that we don't. Knowledge moves forward.
> Dominance theory was debunked years ago, wolves in the wild live in family packs and the 'leader' is usually a parent or grandparent of the others.
> Please go read some Karen Pryor or other research books that have been written by qualified people and learn about the canine mind, then make up your own mind whether it's better to train with punishment or with praise.


if your dogs do stuff to get food or toys then you basicly bribe them, 
a dog should do what you tell it to do because you are in charge,
and a dog that has been made to submit is not scared if it is done correctly as a dog that is submitting should be very calm, 
i dont agree with the idea of just turning away from bad behavior, and rewarding good, 
if a dog does some thing bad then they need to get corrected.


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

and ceaser doesnt train with punishment, submission is not a punishment, 
getting locked in a room is a from of punishment and thats what so many of your "trained" dog trainers do. 

oh and as he doesnt train dogs the idea of rewarding when they do something right doesnt really work


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## jeweled lady (Aug 25, 2009)

dizzylynn said:


> Bonnie hasnt been to any classes and I have her sitting on command, lies down to commond, stays for about 30 seconds then comes to me and sits, comes on command in the garden and house (most of the time), not really done it on walks tho to many new exciting things to see and meet, she has been groomed, nails clipped, and allows me to look in mouth and ears. If she picks something up shes not meant to have i dont chase her I ask her to show me, and she does, she gives me it then I give her a treat or a cuddle for being good. She's not to food aggressive or bothered about food round her so thats not an issue havent dealt with it, but if might need dealt with. For now she is out 4 times a day, meets the neighbours daily and their dogs, and has games with us daily, as well as her chill time to sleep and grow.


Well done, you know what you are doing and will have a well behaved dog. You could also have some fun with other people doing obedience competition or agility, or just working your dog for its specific breed.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I wasn't going to comment as so many have given good advice.
Personally if the owners are already 'moaning' about the puppies behaviour then I think it should be returned to breeder and found a home with more experience.

Were they not adivsed 'NOT' to get a labradoodle as it is a working combination anyway?

As I, or someone else, said in the original thread about them getting this pup it was evident that it would not be in the home for any length of time.
I feel sorry for Freeky as she would obviously like to put things right with the pup but as the owners work long hours it's unlikely they will be prepared to put the time into making their children a nice family pet out of this puppy.
To put the onus on thier nanny and a behaviourist is wrong in my eyes. 
They should have bought each child a nice plush dog teddy and had done with it.

I feel so sorry for this little boy. He will still be traumatised from moving home without all this palaver.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

saxon said:


> I wasn't going to comment as so many have given good advice.
> Personally if the owners are already 'moaning' about the puppies behaviour then I think it should be returned to breeder and found a home with more experience.
> 
> Were they not adivsed 'NOT' to get a labradoodle as it is a working combination anyway?
> ...


 
A Cavalier would have been so much easier for a first dog.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> A Cavalier would have been so much easier for a first dog.


 
I think that was the breed that was advised by everyone who knows what to get for kids to be honest. I know it's the breed I advised.

It's just a pity that people want 'status' dogs and the poor labradoodles seem to the be the 'in' breed lately no matter which size they are...'status dogs' are not always the mastiff types are they?

I hope they do take on their resposibilities and work with him though...I'm sure in around 3-4 years he'll be a great pet when he's matured and settled down....stopped knocking the kids for six and generally ignoring everyone!


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Can i please just point out that ceasar Milan IS NOT A TRAINER!!!!! Hes a dog pyhsicologist.(SP)


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## dizzylynn (Jul 30, 2010)

I think if they are working full time, and not at home during the day then a puppy really shouldnt have been the answer, maybe an older rescue who is happy to be on his/her own during the day, or a cat. Its not fair on the child minder/dog minder not sure cant remember, to be left with the duties of training and teaching the pup if its not her pet. 
We have alot of pets, BUT we are here all day everyday, parent carers for autistic sons. When the kids are at school we devote our time to the pets and the house, when the kids come home at lunch then after school its the kids and the dogs.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I agree and unfortunately it's upto Freeky, as the nanny, to cope with the puppy as well.

Hopefully they will take on the responsibility and have a trainer employed to train the pup to such a degree that the nanny, Freeky, and themselves can continue the training...it is do-able it's just going to be very expensive be it financially or at the detriment to the dog and the children!
Also they lose the dog for a few months until he's trained but that might not be a bad thing in this instance!


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