# standard garden toads?



## matsilvester (Feb 18, 2011)

is there any one that sells just standard garden toads. or even from sporne let me know guys.... thanks


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

I think its against the law to sell native wild life, this includes toads native to this country and thier spawn.


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## matsilvester (Feb 18, 2011)

ohh okie mate my mum was just wanting to know for he garden lol thank mate


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

If there's a pond in the garden, just watch and wait


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## thetrooper81 (Mar 1, 2010)

Hi mate,
yeah it's illegal to sell or advertise for sale adult, tadpoles or spawn of any UK native species.

If you have a pond, remember to create plenty of terrestrial habitat around pond too! Rough grassy areas, some smallish log piles and piles of leaves and generally a little mess! :whistling2: Build it and they will come!!!


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## matsilvester (Feb 18, 2011)

thetrooper81 said:


> Hi mate,
> yeah it's illegal to sell or advertise for sale adult, tadpoles or spawn of any UK native species.
> 
> If you have a pond, remember to create plenty of terrestrial habitat around pond too! Rough grassy areas, some smallish log piles and piles of leaves and generally a little mess! :whistling2: Build it and they will come!!!


 
nice one thanks


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## thetrooper81 (Mar 1, 2010)

PS the ARC trust are a good way to check out how to look after herps in your garden and ideas of clubs to join etc locally too (your County Amphibian and Reptile Group for instance)
Gardening for herps link:
Dragons in your Garden - enhancing your garden

laters! :2thumb:


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

It's not illegal to sell them but there are regulations that govern their sale. I can supply you with them but not at this time of year. If you're interested in some drop me an email: [email protected]


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## Bug_Juice (Apr 2, 2010)

The title of this thread...

:mrgreen: "I'll have three frogs, two newts and a couple of toads thanks"

:hmm:"Natterjacks?"

:mrgreen: "Nope, just yer standard garden toad for me today please."


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## thetrooper81 (Mar 1, 2010)

Ok, I will probably be labeled as a pedant and I hate to be repetitive, :whistling2:

*but* under Section 9 (of which parts 5a and 5b listed below apply to *all life stages* of common frog, common toad, smooth and palmate newts) of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (as ammended) you will be commiting an *offence* if you are:

selling, offering for sale, possessing or transporting for the purpose of sale (live or dead animal, part or derivative)
*advertising* for buying or selling such things
(Naturenet: Schedule 5 Animals - CAUTION this is not the same level of protection offered to the other native species. Read the whole of link for what applies to the other UK native species in the wild)

@Pollywog
I'm guessing that by "regulated" you mean you would apply for a special licence for this purpose from the wildlife licensing unit of Natural England? As far as I'm aware, licences to take from the wild or posses certain species are given for conservation, education and science but not for trade!

There should be a sticky somewhere with the legislation regarding WILD UK NATIVE reptiles and amphibians? I have seen a few questions about trading them or offering to buy them on here. Not trying to be over dramatic, but this may cause trouble... :whistling2:


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## firebelliedfreak (Nov 3, 2008)

thetrooper81 said:


> Ok, I will probably be labeled as a pedant and I hate to be repetitive, :whistling2:
> 
> 
> *but* under Section 9 (of which parts 5a and 5b listed below apply to *all life stages* of common frog, common toad, smooth and palmate newts) of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (as ammended) you will be commiting an *offence* if you are:
> ...


NO.

from what i believe he can supply animals from either 5th gen breedings or from other countries bloodlines:2thumb:


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

thetrooper81 said:


> @Pollywog
> I'm guessing that by "regulated" you mean you would apply for a special licence for this purpose from the wildlife licensing unit of Natural England? As far as I'm aware, licences to take from the wild or posses certain species are given for conservation, education and science but not for trade!


I already have here on my desk a license allowing me to take and sell our more common native species at set times of the year.
I also have captive bred lines of our native species.


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## thetrooper81 (Mar 1, 2010)

Ok, had not heard of these licences and there doesn't seem to be anything mentioned in the law about it. Who issued it?


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## Caleb (Oct 21, 2009)

There's a general licence issued every year that allows anyone to trade in the common species (with certain restrictions) outside the breeding season. This year's is here:
http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/wml-gl19_tcm6-24167.pdf


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

Caleb said:


> There's a general licence issued every year that allows anyone to trade in the common species (with certain restrictions) outside the breeding season. This year's is here:
> http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/wml-gl19_tcm6-24167.pdf


There is an equivalent licence in Wales also, don't know about Scotland / N Ireland though.


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## matsilvester (Feb 18, 2011)

thetrooper81 said:


> Ok, I will probably be labeled as a pedant and I hate to be repetitive, :whistling2:
> 
> 
> *but* under Section 9 (of which parts 5a and 5b listed below apply to *all life stages* of common frog, common toad, smooth and palmate newts) of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (as ammended) you will be commiting an *offence* if you are:
> ...


wow dude keep your socks on geees. i was only asking i had no idear u could buy them, i was only finding out for my mum as she likes the wildlife. just take chill pill dude its obv i didnt no...


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## thetrooper81 (Mar 1, 2010)

Wasn't having a go at anyone...was just saying from what I know, that's what the law says. If there are Natural England Licences as linked above, then fine! Happy Days!


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## spencerburgo (Dec 1, 2010)

all that states is in regard to selling of toads, why dont you just do what other people do and put some spawn or tadpoles in your pond that way as they grow in to toadlets and froglets there is more chance of them returning to your pond year after year :whistling2:

cheers spencer................


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## spencerburgo (Dec 1, 2010)

thetrooper81 said:


> Ok, had not heard of these licences and there doesn't seem to be anything mentioned in the law about it. Who issued it?


no offence but you sound like the frog police lol, why should he have to explain himself to people, he is not going to say it on a public forum if it was not so knowing full well there will be people out there wanting to prove there right and someone else is wrong,

cheers spencer..............


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Hi Matt Harris,

Regarding the loophole selling wild caught specimens of our native amphibians (which i'm well aware of), may i ask as an ARG member yourself i believe, why exactly you feel the need to keep promoting this relatively little known loophole in the law over and over again here on RFUK? Ok, in this case you've only pointed out that this particular law also applies in other areas of the British Isles, but nevertheless and as I understand it, you're an active member of a group dedicated towards the conservation and protection of our own native herpetofauna, so is it something you should really be encouraging? I do find it very odd that you go out of your way on this forum to point this loophole out whenever someone mentions purchasing our natives, and quite frankly, especially as an ARG member, a not particularly responsible or clever thing to do. 

Cheers
Al


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## matsilvester (Feb 18, 2011)

spencerburgo said:


> no offence but you sound like the frog police lol, why should he have to explain himself to people, he is not going to say it on a public forum if it was not so knowing full well there will be people out there wanting to prove there right and someone else is wrong,
> 
> cheers spencer..............


thank you i have no idear what ive done :s lol


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## stegriff (Feb 13, 2011)

i recently read an article about what your all talking about and there was a guy who got sent to court under the wildlife and country side act 1981 for his uk lizard breeding and sales and he won his case due to proving that he had the first pair before the act came into effect and made a breeding log every year to pre date so in effect the first pair were Wild Reared but after that act came into play all the lizards that were bore where in effect captive breed and he won the case as of now i dont know if they closed that loop hole but just an interesting piece for yas:lol2:


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## spencerburgo (Dec 1, 2010)

matsilvester said:


> thank you i have no idear what ive done :s lol


sorry about that it was not meant to quote you will redirect it now :blush:

cheers spencer............


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## spencerburgo (Dec 1, 2010)

thetrooper81 said:


> Ok, had not heard of these licences and there doesn't seem to be anything mentioned in the law about it. Who issued it?


 no offence but you sound like the frog police lol, why should he have to explain himself to people, he is not going to say it on a public forum if it was not so knowing full well there will be people out there wanting to prove there right and someone else is wrong,

cheers spencer.............


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## stegriff (Feb 13, 2011)

sadly we dont seem to have the welsh version of your english wml-gl19 spent hours looking and come to the same point of nothing :bash:


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## thetrooper81 (Mar 1, 2010)

I just wanted to post one last time to clear up some things as I don't want bad feelings to fester on here! 
Despite the fact that I have worked with wild amphibians for years and gone to loads of conferences with the then HCT (now ARC trust), BHS, ARGs etc., I only knew that the law said what I wrote above. I had never heard of being able to get a licence to sell the native species outside certain times of year. *I'll admit that! *Even the Herpetofauna Worker's Manual (sort of aimed at local ARG and consultants and written by the top Herp groups) doesn't hint at being able to get a licence for sale, if I remember rightly. But that's probably because, as hinted above, it isn't generally pubblised so I never heard about it!
So, I ASKED in order to learn and check things out.. isn't that the point of these forums? Clearly it came across as maybe annoying and pendantic on a forum where you can only read what someone writes but can't hear tone of voice tec.! And I sincerely apologise if it's upset anyone!

@Polywog: I'm sorry if I caused offence! I asked if this is a licence issued by Natural England (as they issue the ones for translocating Great Crested Newts etc) and it basically is. That's all I was trying to figure out!

@matsilver, sorry for being so "frog police" but to the best of my knowledge, I thought it was illegal and therefore just trying to help out!


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

thetrooper81 said:


> @Polywog: I'm sorry if I caused offence! I asked if this is a licence issued by Natural England (as they issue the ones for translocating Great Crested Newts etc) and it basically is. That's all I was trying to figure out!


No, no offence.


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

thetrooper81 said:


> I just wanted to post one last time to clear up some things as I don't want bad feelings to fester on here!
> Despite the fact that I have worked with wild amphibians for years and gone to loads of conferences with the then HCT (now ARC trust), BHS, ARGs etc., I only knew that the law said what I wrote above. I had never heard of being able to get a licence to sell the native species outside certain times of year. *I'll admit that! *Even the Herpetofauna Worker's Manual (sort of aimed at local ARG and consultants and written by the top Herp groups) doesn't hint at being able to get a licence for sale, if I remember rightly. But that's probably because, as hinted above, it isn't generally pubblised so I never heard about it!
> So, I ASKED in order to learn and check things out.. isn't that the point of these forums? Clearly it came across as maybe annoying and pendantic on a forum where you can only read what someone writes but can't hear tone of voice tec.! And I sincerely apologise if it's upset anyone!
> 
> ...


I think the main thing to learn is that there are always difficulties in looking up a piece of legislation on the internet (especially if it's second-hand via Naturenet) and then quoting it as if it's carved in stone. There are very often amendments, licences and caselaw which won't be presented alongside the original Act but which will influence or amend how it works in reality.


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

Alex M said:


> Hi Matt Harris,
> 
> Regarding the loophole selling wild caught specimens of our native amphibians (which i'm well aware of), may i ask as an ARG member yourself i believe, why exactly you feel the need to keep promoting this relatively little known loophole in the law over and over again here on RFUK? Ok, in this case you've only pointed out that this particular law also applies in other areas of the British Isles, but nevertheless and as I understand it, you're an active member of a group dedicated towards the conservation and protection of our own native herpetofauna, so is it something you should really be encouraging? I do find it very odd that you go out of your way on this forum to point this loophole out whenever someone mentions purchasing our natives, and quite frankly, especially as an ARG member, a not particularly responsible or clever thing to do.
> 
> ...


The reference to these licences by Caleb and myself were made to thetrooper81 not to yourself, but congratulations on being "well aware" of them anyway.

That these licences are issued by our governments indicates that they do not consider sale of common amphibians to be a concern, so mentioning that they exist should equally not be a concern.

If someone enquires on this forum about buying/selling native 'phibs, and someone responds that 'it's illegal', then I see no problem in pointing out to the op that in fact this may not be the case, and that they can use these licences if they wish.

The trade is native 'phibs such as common toads, palmate newts etc, as far as I'm aware, is virtually non-existant (perhaps caleb / pollywog can correct me on this) in this country, and whilst I wouldn't like to encourage widespread trade (not that it's likely ever to happen) I don't see a problem if the odd keeper wants to get hold of some specimens by buying them rather than catching them. Neither, evidently, do our Governments, or else they wouldn't issue these licences.

There are a lot better ways to conserve native fauna that 'keeping quiet' about 'loopholes' in the law as you call them, and an incorrect interpretation of the legal situation serves no-one any good; I think it would be better if these things were out in the open. As I understand it general licences in Wales are under review (I remember responding to the consultation a while ago) so who knows, the ones we're talking about may not be issued much longer.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Matt Harris said:


> The reference to these licences by Caleb and myself were made to thetrooper81 not to yourself, but congratulations on being "well aware" of them anyway.
> 
> That these licences are issued by our governments indicates that they do not consider sale of common amphibians to be a concern, so mentioning that they exist should equally not be a concern.
> 
> ...


Hi Matt,

Having just typed out a huge reply, and then trying to post it but finding I'd logged out, I will keep my new version short and sweet, though this time I will ignore your 'well aware' dig. I can see what you're saying but I will have to agree to disagree. Because *you* don't feel that there would be any demand for what we'll call 'garden frogs', you feel that that makes it justifiable to point out the poorly know GL at any given opportunity on the basis that the person enquiring should know that purchasing our wild native amphibians is not neccessarily illegal? - That's very true but would a little tactfullness not go amiss and that to turn a blind eye to it is the better option rather than to keep reminding watching eyes that it's possible to make a fast buck out of them - which brings me on to the demand for them. Why do you think the trade in native amphibians is 'virtually unexistant'? - Perhaps the 'lack of demand' could actually be down to the fact that a combination of the general public and the retailers themselves i.e garden centres and exotics traders have wrongly thought it to be illegal to sell our natives in the first place?. With the very real threat of spreading ranavirus/chytrid from area to area I fail to see how somebody from (Gwent?) ARG could really say that bringing to the attention of all and sundry is a good idea?. You will not know this, but I've worked in and around the exotic pet trade for some years so I'm well aware of whether there is any demand for our native herps, and I would say that you may just be surprised - in the nicest possible way to Andrew (Pollywog) and Caleb (Whom with I was a member of the BHS/YHC 20 years ago or so), I don't need anyone to verify whether there wouild be demand or not. I can say that the last 2 places I worked at both had more than their fair share of customers who wanted to buy 'normal frogs' etc to stick in their new garden ponds. Most staff were not aware that a license could be gained in order to sell our native phibs (which was a good thing), but we would always tell customers the best thing to do was let nature take it's course, and give them further tips on encouraging the natives to their garden. If we could have paid kids 50p a frog/newt etc I can tell you now we'd have been able to sell bucketloads during the summer months. The main concern for me was and is the possible spread of ranavirus/chytrid from isolated pockets of water into towns where a potential network of ponds could prove devastating - May sound extreme but try telling that to the miles of new habitat being affected yearly in S.America. So, back to the point, what I'm trying to say is that it's not so much a lack of demand, but rather a lack of knowledge regarding this licence, that has stopped the local garden/aquatics/exotics centre from applying for the GL and subsequently selling them en masse for pence, which you can bet your life would happen, certainly in garden centres. The bottom line is that this is the largest forum of it's kind in the UK, where many people from the trade also hang out - and I totally fail to see the benefit in pointing out this licence repetitively as in the long run, with it a little more common knowledge, we could go back several decades to when native herps were commonly sold. If it's any consolation, not so long ago I had a conversation recently with a friend who's the organiser of the joint ARC/BHS cons tasks here in Dorset, which I've been involved in voluntarily for the past 20 years or so on and off, and he totally agreed with me on this matter, and he was very surprised that a member of ARG would feel this to be a sensible thing to do. Given his standing, I feel I'm not going totally mad therefore. To summarise, if you feel that it's beneficial and helpful to UK amphibians to keep promoting the GL on here then I will respect your decision but I certainly do not agree with it.


Cheers
Al


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Sorry, Alex- while I agree with you that mass trade in native 'phibs is undesirable (epecially taking into account disease risks), I can't agree that transparency in the law is a bad thing. We should all know what the law says, and 'hiding' it is only a bad thing.


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

I don't get all that much of a demand for our native species however I don't get the general public coming in off the street so I'm sure there is a bigger demand than I see and working in a retail environment Al would probably be in a better situation to see that than I would.
As long as the license is available people are going to buy and sell them, I'd rather people buy them from someone like me that knows the state of the populations they are collecting from and can collect animals in a responsible manor than someone who picks up every animal they come across.
I also find that the majority of requests I receive for our native species are made at this time of year during their breeding seasons when people are made more aware of them and by the time the date restrictions on the license pass the vast majority of people that enquired have forgotten about them.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

pollywog said:


> I don't get all that much of a demand for our native species however I don't get the general public coming in off the street so I'm sure there is a bigger demand than I see and working in a retail environment Al would probably be in a better situation to see that than I would.
> As long as the license is available people are going to buy and sell them, I'd rather people buy them from someone like me that knows the state of the populations they are collecting from and can collect animals in a responsible manor than someone who picks up every animal they come across.
> I also find that the majority of requests I receive for our native species are made at this time of year during their breeding seasons when people are made more aware of them and by the time the date restrictions on the license pass the vast majority of people that enquired have forgotten about them.


 
Thank god, a sensible reply, and one that proves between us that there may actually be more demand for them than is realised. Thankyou Andrew. The thread has developed a little since the OP's question, and of course I'm painting a picture of what could potentially happen, a worst case scenario. There really are sensible ways to bring UK amphibians etc into your own backyard - and giving the idea that people can grab anything they can lay their hands on, and ultimately sell, from unknown sources is a very bad idea to me, lawful or not. I will reiterate that the ranavirus/chytrid issue is my main concern, both of which can be found in UK populations, and I would feel the same regarding tropical species if it were possible for example species to survive year round in this country. R.e Ron - For me it has nothing to do with providing transparency of the law, that post I feel makes me look like I condone being dishonest regarding the law, and am hiding something that is beneficial to all - Of course I don't agree with that, but sometimes I feel a little tactfullness would not go amiss, especially from someone who is involved with a UK CONSERVATION group. 

Cheers
Al


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Alex M said:


> Thank god, a sensible reply, and one that proves between us that there may actually be more demand for them than is realised. Thankyou Andrew. The thread has developed a little since the OP's question, and of course I'm painting a picture of what could potentially happen, a worst case scenario. There really are sensible ways to bring UK amphibians etc into your own backyard - and giving the idea that people can grab anything they can lay their hands on, and ultimately sell, from unknown sources is a very bad idea to me, lawful or not. I will reiterate that the ranavirus/chytrid issue is my main concern, both of which can be found in UK populations, and I would feel the same regarding tropical species if it were possible for example species to survive year round in this country. R.e Ron - For me it has nothing to do with providing transparency of the law,* that post I feel makes me look like I condone being dishonest regarding the law, and am hiding something that is beneficial to all* - Of course I don't agree with that, but sometimes I feel a little tactfullness would not go amiss, especially from someone who is involved with a UK CONSERVATION group.
> 
> Cheers
> Al


Alex, you are probably the last person I would accuse of dishonesty!


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Ron Magpie said:


> Alex, you are probably the last person I would accuse of dishonesty!


 
*Pssssssst!*


(You want any cristatus? 5's/£7 , 10's/£5.75, 25's/£4.50)


Let me know quickly, the ponds full and I want to catch them before me cuppa's cold guvnor 



And yes, I was being silly (or I prefer to call it 'youthful') before anyone thinks I'm being serious.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Alex M said:


> *Pssssssst!*
> 
> 
> (You want any cristatus? 5's/£7 , 10's/£5.75, 25's/£4.50)
> ...


:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## Caleb (Oct 21, 2009)

Matt Harris said:


> The trade is native 'phibs such as common toads, palmate newts etc, as far as I'm aware, is virtually non-existant (perhaps caleb / pollywog can correct me on this) in this country


When the Wildlife & Countryside Act came in (1981), the NCC decided that they'd not look to limit trade in the common species, but would use licensing as a means of monitoring trade. 

In the first few years, they found that the vast majority of trade was in common frogs, and that the vast majority of this trade was for laboratories. About 50,000 animals were legally sold in the UK each year, 30,000 of these collected in Eire, and 20,000 collected in the UK (10,000 of these in Cornwall). 

By 1990, they'd discovered that lab demand was decreasing (and had peaked long before 1980, at around 150,000 frogs per year), and decided that collection on this scale was unlikely to result in population declines on a regional scale (as level of collecting was far lower than natural mortality).

Presumably the general licenses were issued as a result of this- NCC/EN/NE avoid the paperwork/manhours on something they don't consider to be of conservation importance.



Given changes in lab practice since, I'd guess that the lab trade is now a fraction of what it was then. I really have no idea whether Alex's 'bucketfuls' of frogs could add up to anything comparable to the lab trade now or in the 1980s.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Caleb said:


> When the Wildlife & Countryside Act came in (1981), the NCC decided that they'd not look to limit trade in the common species, but would use licensing as a means of monitoring trade.
> 
> In the first few years, they found that the vast majority of trade was in common frogs, and that the vast majority of this trade was for laboratories. About 50,000 animals were legally sold in the UK each year, 30,000 of these collected in Eire, and 20,000 collected in the UK (10,000 of these in Cornwall).
> 
> ...


 Don't forget that in those days it was quite common to do school disections on live or recently killed frogs.:gasp:


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## Caleb (Oct 21, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> Don't forget that in those days it was quite common to do school disections on live or recently killed frogs.:gasp:


Yes, the NCC estimated that at the peak, up to 100,000 frogs were collected per year by schools (as well as the 150,000 collected for the lab trade).


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

Very interesting about the use of common frogs for schools and research. I would never have thought they would use so many. When I did dissection of frogs at school in the 80's, I'm sure we used captive-bred leopard frogs.

Speaking to WAG about general licences, it turns out that they removed the text of the amphibian General Licence for dowload from their website, so that in order to see a copy of it you had to request it. In two years they received no requests for copies of this General Licence, so as of this January it has been revoked, presumably on the grounds that if no-one uses it any more, then there's no point in issuing it. Therefore, to trade common 'phibs in Wales you need to apply for a specific licence, which evidently differs from the situation in England.


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

It's a shame that schools can't utilise Toads for dissection, it would be quite easy to collect large numbers of dead / dieing toads during Toads on Roads patrols many of which would still be in a reasonable enough shape to dissect.


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