# Hybridization of Chameleon Species



## Chris Anderson (Dec 12, 2009)

Recently a classified add was brought to my attention claiming to be selling a hybrid between the Carpet Chameleon (_Furcifer lateralis_) and Yemen Chameleon (_Chamaeleo calyptratus_). Within the chameleon family, there seems to be some misunderstandings regarding the ability of different chameleons to hybridize so I thought I would make a post that might be helpful to anyone interested in this chameleon the poster is trying to sell or who is simply interested in the truth about hybridization in chameleons.

First, many people confuse the crossing of Panther Chameleon locales (ex. Ankaramy, Nosy Be, Ambilobe, Ambanja, etc.) and think that this is the same thing. In fact, these are all the same species (_Furcifer pardalis_) and the locales simply represent variants associated with different geographic location. This is very similar to humans where you see phenotypic variation based on ancestral geographic origin (Asian, African, European, etc.) or dog breeds. These breeds, races or geographic locales can interbreed because they are all the same species.

As far as hybridization between species, this has actually been observed. There are known hybrids in chameleons between Yemen Chameleons (_Chamaeleo calyptratus_) and Arabian Chameleons (_Chamaeleo arabicus_), Panther Chameleons (_Furcifer pardalis_) and Oustalet's Chameleons (_Furcifer oustaleti_), and between Mt. Meru Jackson's Chameleons (_Trioceros jacksonii merumontanus_) and Sternfeld's Side-striped Chameleons (_Trioceros sternfeldi_). One thing that is important to note is that in each case, these are closely related species from the same genus that overlap in range and habitat preference. Other examples of hybridization are typically within the same genus as well (ex: _Bitis nasicornis_ x _Bitis gabonica_, _Panthera tigris_ x _Panthera leo_, _Equus ferus_ x _Equus africanus_).

The Yemen Chameleon (_Chamaeleo calyptratus_) and the Carpet Chameleon (_Furcifer lateralis_) are two species from two highly diverged genera. They are not able to interbreed for the same reason as Jackson's Chameleons (_Trioceros jacksonii_) don't interbreed with Panther Chameleons (F_urcifer pardalis_) or Panther Chameleons (_Furcifer pardalis_) interbreed with Yemen Chameleons (_Chamaeleo calyptratus_). This would be similar to a human hybridizing with an orangutan.

When prompted to provide a photo of the supposed cross, the seller's photos are simply that of a female Yemen Chameleon, nothing more. Unfortunately this fact has not changed the seller's determination to sell the animal as something else, which obviously draws their credibility into question (I know I wouldn't trust someone willing to continue to try and mislead buyers even after they were notified of their mistake). Hopefully no one falls for it, however.

At any rate, hopefully someone found this all interesting or useful. 

Chris


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## pmcpaul (Sep 11, 2008)

Good post!


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## Sabrina Crawford (Dec 13, 2009)

Great post.


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## lottus321 (Oct 16, 2007)

very intersting post, i dont know enough about this to comment myself.

Its not something that i really thought about but i will be some reserching for myself.

great post though.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Am I the only one who's dubious about the breeding of hybrids in any case? Bearded and Rankin's springs to mind...


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## Sabrina Crawford (Dec 13, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> Am I the only one who's dubious about the breeding of hybrids in any case? Bearded and Rankin's springs to mind...


There are many people who prefer to keep locales and species pure. Interbreeding may not be accepted in many communities for years to come.


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## LiddleTina (Feb 10, 2008)

Chris Anderson said:


> Recently a classified add was brought to my attention claiming to be selling a hybrid between the Carpet Chameleon (_Furcifer lateralis_) and Yemen Chameleon (_Chamaeleo calyptratus_). Within the chameleon family, there seems to be some misunderstandings regarding the ability of different chameleons to hybridize so I thought I would make a post that might be helpful to anyone interested in this chameleon the poster is trying to sell or who is simply interested in the truth about hybridization in chameleons.
> 
> First, many people confuse the crossing of Panther Chameleon locales (ex. Ankaramy, Nosy Be, Ambilobe, Ambanja, etc.) and think that this is the same thing. In fact, these are all the same species (_Furcifer pardalis_) and the locales simply represent variants associated with different geographic location. This is very similar to humans where you see phenotypic variation based on ancestral geographic origin (Asian, African, European, etc.) or dog breeds. These breeds, races or geographic locales can interbreed because they are all the same species.
> 
> ...


Excuse me but who died and made you the all knowing expert on every thing?
It's hardly fair to come on here as a complete stranger and call into question the integrity of a well trusted and respected member of this community. How can you justify coming on here and starting a thread about someone who you don't even know? The seller you are referring to has the best reptile shop in these parts with first class,well cared for animals and the best supplies you could wish for. His advice and expertise is second to none and I would trust this man any day over some jumped up and quite frankly rather boring individual with nothing better to do than try to cause trouble for someone who genuinely doesn't deserve it. If a mistake over the identity of this animal has been made then I'm sure it's only because he trusted the word of the person who bred it and if that's the case then I know he'll be the first to correct the thread accordingly.
We can't all be experts in every animal that comes our way can we? If you're only here because you think you've got superior knowledge then you won't last very long on this forum.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Ouch- just a little aggressive?:whistling2:


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## Sabrina Crawford (Dec 13, 2009)

LiddleTina said:


> If a mistake over the identity of this animal has been made then I'm sure it's only because he trusted the word of the person who bred it and if that's the case then I know he'll be the first to correct the thread accordingly.


All I have to say about the animal in question is that the research should have been done before offering the animal back up for sale. 

That being said, I can understand he trusted what the person said. 
However, perhaps this just means that there should be careful measures taken before offering another cross up for sale. 

I am curious to see what the seller has to say about the animal in question and how the mistake was made.. and I do hope Reptacular gets their money back.


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## M022ER (Dec 3, 2009)

LiddleTina said:


> Excuse me but who died and made you the all knowing expert on every thing?
> It's hardly fair to come on here as a complete stranger and call into question the integrity of a well trusted and respected member of this community. How can you justify coming on here and starting a thread about someone who you don't even know? The seller you are referring to has the best reptile shop in these parts with first class,well cared for animals and the best supplies you could wish for. His advice and expertise is second to none and I would trust this man any day over some jumped up and quite frankly rather boring individual with nothing better to do than try to cause trouble for someone who genuinely doesn't deserve it. If a mistake over the identity of this animal has been made then I'm sure it's only because he trusted the word of the person who bred it and if that's the case then I know he'll be the first to correct the thread accordingly.
> We can't all be experts in every animal that comes our way can we? If you're only here because you think you've got superior knowledge then you won't last very long on this forum.




Pwned.


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## Chris Anderson (Dec 12, 2009)

LiddleTina said:


> Excuse me but who died and made you the all knowing expert on every thing?
> It's hardly fair to come on here as a complete stranger and call into question the integrity of a well trusted and respected member of this community. How can you justify coming on here and starting a thread about someone who you don't even know? The seller you are referring to has the best reptile shop in these parts with first class,well cared for animals and the best supplies you could wish for. His advice and expertise is second to none and I would trust this man any day over some jumped up and quite frankly rather boring individual with nothing better to do than try to cause trouble for someone who genuinely doesn't deserve it. If a mistake over the identity of this animal has been made then I'm sure it's only because he trusted the word of the person who bred it and if that's the case then I know he'll be the first to correct the thread accordingly.
> We can't all be experts in every animal that comes our way can we? If you're only here because you think you've got superior knowledge then you won't last very long on this forum.


Hi Liddle,

I missed the part of this thread where I named the seller or stated where the classified posting was made. This thread can stand alone by itself and does not depend on associating anyone's name or reputation to my concerns about people being taken by such false claims. I have provided a link to this thread on the classified add in question so that those interested in additional information on hybridization in chameleons can find it but I specifically have not linked to the add or named the seller in this thread.

As you so eloquently put it, not everyone can be an expert on every animal. My post was to help provide information to the forum on a topic I have a considerable amount of experience on (chameleons) and specifically a question I felt this community may benefit from additional information on.

The only one who has directly attacked anyone in this thread is you. I have plenty of information to share with this community and will be happy to do so. I chose to start with a topic I felt would be of interest. Next time I'll provide a dumbed down version with pictures so it isn't as "boring" for you.

Chris


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## vetdebbie (Jan 4, 2008)

LiddleTina said:


> Excuse me but who died and made you the all knowing expert on every thing?
> It's hardly fair to come on here as a complete stranger and call into question the integrity of a well trusted and respected member of this community. How can you justify coming on here and starting a thread about someone who you don't even know? The seller you are referring to has the best reptile shop in these parts with first class,well cared for animals and the best supplies you could wish for. His advice and expertise is second to none and I would trust this man any day over some jumped up and quite frankly rather boring individual with nothing better to do than try to cause trouble for someone who genuinely doesn't deserve it. If a mistake over the identity of this animal has been made then I'm sure it's only because he trusted the word of the person who bred it and if that's the case then I know he'll be the first to correct the thread accordingly.
> We can't all be experts in every animal that comes our way can we? If you're only here because you think you've got superior knowledge then you won't last very long on this forum.


 
It's not the only forum this ad has been posted on = and this member is well respected on another chameleon based forum. And, quite frankly, makes good scientific sense.


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## white (May 16, 2009)

Chris Anderson said:


> Hi Liddle,
> 
> I missed the part of this thread where I named the seller or stated where the classified posting was made. This thread can stand alone by itself and does not depend on associating anyone's name or reputation to my concerns about people being taken by such false claims. I have provided a link to this thread on the classified add in question so that those interested in additional information on hybridization in chameleons can find it but I specifically have not linked to the add or named the seller in this thread.
> 
> ...


well said


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## Chris Anderson (Dec 12, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> Am I the only one who's dubious about the breeding of hybrids in any case? Bearded and Rankin's springs to mind...


Ron,

My personal opinion is that hybridization should be avoided wherever possible. This is especially true in species that depend on wild caught sources for the sustainability of the captive populations (such as most chameleon species). 

Once an animal has blood from another species or locale, no matter how many times that bloodline is bred back to one of the parent species or locales, it will never be pure. If careful records are not then kept, you run into a potential situation where only wild caught bloodlines can be trusted as pure and if those sources of wild blood are ever cut off (which it is only a matter of time for many chameleon species), you may never have pure bloodlines again.

Obviously this is an extreme circumstance but one I would argue is not too far of a stretch for many species, in particular pure locales in panther chameleons (_Furcifer pardalis_).

Chris


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## Reptacular Ltd (Nov 1, 2008)

Tina was only sticking up for a shop that she uses, and trusts. she could see a mistake must have happened as this is not the business ways of the shop.

A statement was made of the ad in question which has now been deleted (which has only been placed on this forum, now where else). The statement stated that

`The supplier had said it was an unusual chameleon with some unusual colours and as stupid as it sounds looks like a bit of carpet in the mix`. This was misunderstood and thought to have said.

`its an unusual chameleon with a bit of carpet chameleon in it`. 

Easy Mistake i think dont you ???

Also tina was purely stating that putting a link in the actual advert and then making an opening post like this obviously aimed at the shop involved was not really fair.

There are scammers on here we all know this, but the shop involved is not one of them, just a mistake. 

Think alot of people could learn alot about Chameleon genetics but public hanging someone for a mistake could have been handled better, like a pm giving the op chance to change things. Which has now been done, and admitted fault and apologised. Cant really ask no more can you to be fair.

Not starting world war three, just stating a few things. Enjoy the Chameleon information on this thread.

Thanks.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Totally take your point, Reptacular, but you don't think the reaction was a little OTT?


LiddleTina said:


> *Excuse me but who died and made you the all knowing expert on every thing?*
> It's hardly fair to come on here as a complete stranger and call into question the integrity of a well trusted and respected member of this community. How can you justify coming on here and starting a thread about someone who you don't even know? The seller you are referring to has the best reptile shop in these parts with first class,well cared for animals and the best supplies you could wish for. His advice and expertise is second to none *and I would trust this man any day over some jumped up and quite frankly rather boring individual with nothing better to do than try to cause trouble* for someone who genuinely doesn't deserve it. If a mistake over the identity of this animal has been made then I'm sure it's only because he trusted the word of the person who bred it and if that's the case then I know he'll be the first to correct the thread accordingly.
> We can't all be experts in every animal that comes our way can we? *If you're only here because you think you've got superior knowledge then you won't last very long on this forum.*


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## Reptacular Ltd (Nov 1, 2008)

Hi

Everyone does at times, especially when its there local shop/ friend. 

I think we could all be accussed of this at times dont you ????

Some of the comments made about the shop was harsh, like scammer, etc. when it was just a mistake.

Mistakes happen. Its those that do something about it that are the good ones, not thos who ignore and do nothing.

Any way life goes on everyone lives and learns. 

Everyone learns something new about reptiles every single day i would have thought. Even people like Chris ??? Probably still learning stuff now.

Thanks.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Lol, true enough- I always think that if I've stopped learning, I'm probably dead!:lol2: But nonetheless, the guy a) clearly IS quite knowledgeable, and b) didn't deserve such a rude and nasty personal attack by someone who frankly, didn't know him either. But enough.


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## LiddleTina (Feb 10, 2008)

Chris Anderson said:


> Hi Liddle,
> 
> I missed the part of this thread where I named the seller or stated where the classified posting was made. This thread can stand alone by itself and does not depend on associating anyone's name or reputation to my concerns about people being taken by such false claims. I have provided a link to this thread on the classified add in question so that those interested in additional information on hybridization in chameleons can find it but I specifically have not linked to the add or named the seller in this thread.
> 
> ...


You may not have named anyone but you were one of the first to jump onto the classified thread in question and make your opinion very clear. This forum,like many others,has a private messaging system and honourable people should go down that route if they have anything to say to a seller. It's not fair to just post your opinion on someones classified advert and the same goes for all the others who militantly followed your lead.
And as for "dumbing down" anything...I fail to see how that relates to the fact that I found your post boring,I can assure you I am not DUMB and I resent the fact that you presumed me to be.

Tina


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## pssh (Dec 13, 2009)

Dumbing down doesn't necessarily imply that you're dumb. Dumbed down things are often more interesting because you skip the 'boring' stuff. I doubt he meant that you were dumb. 

As for the opinion part of that classified thread, he posted facts about not being able to breed the two chameleons to create a hybrid. I dont recall him ever saying anything that was opinionated, but It was moved/taken down so I cannot go back and double check. 

I think you are taking what he is saying too personally.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

LiddleTina said:


> You may not have named anyone but you were one of the first to jump onto the classified thread in question and make your opinion very clear. This forum,like many others,has a private messaging system and honourable people should go down that route if they have anything to say to a seller. It's not fair to just post your opinion on someones classified advert and the same goes for all the others who militantly followed your lead.
> And as for "dumbing down" anything...I fail to see how that relates to the fact that I found your post boring,I can assure you I am not DUMB and I resent the fact that you presumed me to be.
> 
> Tina


Tina, Do your friend a favour, sit down and let this one lie 

If forum members see something untoward in an advert they are under no obligation to deal with it privately.

Since no one is hiding who's who anymore I'll refresh your memory with Chris' original post, it was factually correct, impartial and necessary;


> Viable hybridization between Carpet Chameleons (_Furcifer lateralis_) and Yemen Chameleons (_Chamaeleo calyptratus_) is not possible. These two species may do the deed but viable embryos and thus offspring will not result as they are too distantly related. The animal you have in the photo is just a typical female Yemen Chameleon (_Chamaeleo calyptratus_) showing receptive coloration, nothing more.
> 
> Chris


I'd like to think this will be the end of it. 
Cheers
Lotte***


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

Saedcantas said:


> Tina, Do your friend a favour, sit down and let this one lie
> 
> If forum members see something untoward in an advert they are under no obligation to deal with it privately.
> 
> ...


 agreed but i would still like to see this human-orangutan hybrid :lol2:
and what would the care req'ments be.


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## Chris Anderson (Dec 12, 2009)

Reptacular - Glad to see you were able to verify that the animal was not a hybrid. It definitely is a nice looking female _Ch. calyptratus_. It would have been unfortunate if you weren't able to clarify this before it was sold! 

My personal feeling is that if "tina was purely stating that putting a link in the actual advert and then making an opening post like this obviously aimed at the shop involved was not really fair," it may have served her better to actually say that (she didn't), rather than just throw insults around on a thread that never once mentioned the seller's name or location of the add. 

As you said, even I am learning new things about reptiles every day (it is quite literally my job) and mistakes happen. One of the most valuable things I've learned, however, is the limitation of my knowledge and when someone else probably knows more about something then I do.


Tina - As Lottee has pointed out, I don't feel that my original post was anything but scientific and accurate. I never saw the TOS rule indicating that members are not allowed to point out the accuracy of other member's public posts. 

As for my comments about dumbing down my posts to make them less boring to you, you are clearly going to interpret everything I say in a very different way then everyone else so I'm not even going to bother justifying you with a response about it.


Lottee - Thanks for putting this thread back on track. I agree it should return to the relevant topic of hybridization.

ginnerone - If I had to guess, I'd think of a hairy redhead with long arms, big lips and an unhealthy obsession with bananas.

Chris


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

Chris Anderson said:


> ginnerone - If I had to guess, I'd think of a hairy redhead with long arms, big lips and an unhealthy obsession with bananas.
> 
> Chris


 Are you taking the Pi**, thats me PMSL only kidding, i don't like bananas:lol2:


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