# The entire reason behind pet shops



## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Shops are there to sell customers animals and the consumable items that these animals require. 

In order to do this continually they need to make money for:

A pet shop uses more electricity than your average house so has high electricity bills.

They have to feed and water animals so the price of this has to be worked into the cost of the item.

They pay VAT and Taxes private keepers don't, these costs have to be added to the item prices.

The staff need paying so these costs get added to the item prices.

The shop has to have a license (if selling livestock comercially) this gets added to the item prices.

The shop has to be insured and suprisingly this has to be added to the item prices.

The shop has to ensure all animals are healthy so vet visits may be needed, this cost has to be added to the items.



I have created this thread so i can refer back to it at later dates as people seem to forget that shops HAVE to be there with the intention of making money. By all means use it as a referral yourself if you feel the need.
If i have missed anything feel free to add it below.


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

Hahahaha!

I'm guessing this is to all the people who *still* seem constantly shocked to find that not all shops have a resident reptile expert and that yes, they *will* recommend their £6 a bag calci-sand with every sale. It has a good markup and helps them get a little more out of you.

People do forget that some/most are businesses in it for the profit not the love of the hobby. Even those that love the hobby still have to make profits.


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

> They have to feed and water animals so the price of this has to be worked into the cost of the item
> The shop has to ensure all animals are healthy so vet visits may be needed, this cost has to be added to the items.


surely these still apply to private breeders? I had some shop offer me only 25 quid each for my crested gecko hacthlings, they sell for them 70. Criminal.


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## Johelian (Nov 25, 2006)

Art_Gecko101 said:


> surely these still apply to private breeders? I had some shop offer me only 25 quid each for my crested gecko hacthlings, they sell for them 70. Criminal.


If you think about it though, the £45 they make on each one sold probably wont go far in terms of paying bills/buying in new stock etc. Its not a high profit business in most cases at all; it seems that many stores are pretty much run by the skin of their teeth sometimes. I imagine I would probably be a bit annoyed as well though if I saw them going for those prices  - but I guess its one of those things that you have to lump if you couldnt sell them privately and they were your last option, or something.

Reticulatus, they also need to factor in where the money is coming from for their next purchases. They will also nearly always have to pay rent for the shop space.

I dont have an issue with the markups people put on their stock in most cases, particularly as many stores are willing to negotiate to an extent because of it  The only thing that bugs me is when they have had the animal in the shop for years, and wont drop their price by, say, an extra £20 or so. They would rather keep it forever than sell it at a slightly lower price? I can see why they do it, but if an extra £20 was the difference between a £400 sale and not knowing when/if the animal would ever sell, I think I would take the money.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

At the end of the day... how much a mark up do you think there is on the food that you buy, the clothes that you wear.. do you think Tesco just adds a few pennies? 

I know the outgoings required, and I know that the income cannot be made for a shop to survive if the markups are not made. I don't know if some shops take the P a bit with their markups, but it all depends on how big your rent, council tax, bills etc. are.

They may have that animal in the shop for several weeks - maybe even months - before it sells, depending on if it is a quick moving product or not (this should determine the markup realisitlcally). Although food costs are cheaper for shops who buy trade... electricity gas and water are all higher, not just higher bills because we use more, but we actually get charged more per the kw of electricity we use, etc.

I was a breeder of corn snakes for many years before I started this venture. I sold my normal corn at £10 knowing that they would be marked up to £30-40, sometimes even £50 depending on their age. I went into the business knowing that. I sold to shops knowing that. Thats just the way it is. Did I still make a profit? Not really. I covered my overheads, food, heating, lighting.. with maybe a little left over to buy a new snake or 2 as investment at the end of the year.

Do most shops make a big profit? Not really.. and many are crippled for years with large debts/loans from the 10-50k (depending on size of shop, ive known ppl at both ends of those ranges) that they spent setting up the shop in the first place.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

As Dan said, pet shops are there to make money, they are a Business after all. Hobby breeders rarely actually 'make' money, they do it for the love and perhaps to cover the costs of feeding their pets. Pet shops need to have a large mark up, they have their taxes to pay etc (again as Dan said)
they are not in it as a hobby, although some shops are an extention of a hoby, they simply would not be able to exist if they offered their stock at the same price the breeders sell direct for. I had a few leopard gecko babies left over last year after the Exeter Expo, I took those to a reptile shop, they gave me what I was asking for at the show, and sold them for three times as much.........Does that bother me ? NO! not at all, I got my asking price, they got their stock, where is the problem ?


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

pet shops are a business at the end of the day and the functions are as any other business. Its not about ripping someone off though some prices can be steep but depends on the shop. From what i seen in pet shops they are reasonably priced in general


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

You know, i totally agree with the fact a pet shop needs to mark up to survive. 

What I dont argree with is employing staff who know diddly squat about the animals they are 'recomending' and the 'sometimes' found practice of trying to sell, push or force customers to buy equipment that is either not needed or simply inncorect for the animal.

This practice can never be agreed with under the banner 'they need to make a profit'


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I know what you mean jurrasic but in most places you buy things i.e. cars, electrical equipment the salesman will try to sell you extras. Pet shops dont make that much profit from the animals I think the majority of profit comes from their dry goods. As long as the pets are getting the basic stuff they need then any extras offered are a way of bumping up the profits as all business's do. As long as they arent getting sold stuff like humidity foggers for rosy boas say I dont see the harm.:smile:


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

purejurrasic said:


> You know, i totally agree with the fact a pet shop needs to mark up to survive.
> 
> What I dont argree with is employing staff who know diddly squat about the animals they are 'recomending' and the 'sometimes' found practice of trying to sell, push or force customers to buy equipment that is either not needed or simply inncorect for the animal.
> 
> This practice can never be agreed with under the banner 'they need to make a profit'


This is true but also true of any retail business. No matter where you are people are trying to sell you things.. even if you don't really need them. Most stores get better deals on a certain "brand" or type of equipment, and will offer the best promotions, deals, setups, and just generally try to push the thing that offers them the best return. This does come under the fact that shops have sales targets they need to meet to survive.

I have never seen a shop "forcing" items on customers so cant comment on that.

The consumer should also be savvy enough to be able to say, I'll think about it, or I'll research it. If a car salesman tells you to buy 5 grand worth of extras on your car - you don't just say, oh, ok, you told me to, i guess I'd better.. you pick which options you think are best for you.

If it is incorrect/bad for the animal.. that is a completely different story and unacceptable. Staff should know the basic requirements and be able to supply the correct equipment.

A reverse scenario. Someone came in yesterday and asked to buy a heat rock for his leopard gecko. I asked what he had in the way of heating - heat mat over half the tank and a spot bulb. I said he probably didn't need one (now these are the new heat rocks by exo-terra with the in built thermostat, not the old ones that used to heat and burn, which is why I sell them). I honestly don't think a leopard gecko will ever use this heat rock.. nor will it ever be switched on anyway as with that much heating (and he uses a thermostat) the damn thing will never be needed. He was adamant. He wanted a heat rock. He didn't care if I didn't think it was suitable or if it would be used. He bought it anyway...

Often people do not listen to advice, and think they know best, and want to make their own minds up anyway.


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

I think that there should be NVQ qualifications in animal science and animal hubsndry which can be an all round subject on exotic animals not just on reptiles but general husbandry, feeding, geography and bioeconomicsand learning where the given animal comes form and mirroring the requirements in captivity. If courses like that were available pet shops could take on staff who know what they are doing, and there probably are some pet shops out there that need brushing up on their knowledge if animals and not see them as just a sale and need care for it properly in the shop.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

spider_mad said:


> I think that there should be NVQ qualifications in animal science and animal hubsndry which can be an all round subject on exotic animals not just on reptiles but general husbandry, feeding, geography and bioeconomicsand learning where the given animal comes form and mirroring the requirements in captivity. If courses like that were available pet shops could take on staff who know what they are doing, and there probably are some pet shops out there that need brushing up on their knowledge if animals and not see them as just a sale and need care for it properly in the shop.


That's very true. The Pet Store Management qualification is a bit of a joke if you're a specialist reptile shop.


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

purejurrasic said:


> You know, i totally agree with the fact a pet shop needs to mark up to survive.
> 
> What I dont argree with is employing staff who know diddly squat about the animals they are 'recomending' and the 'sometimes' found practice of trying to sell, push or force customers to buy equipment that is either not needed or simply inncorect for the animal.
> 
> This practice can never be agreed with under the banner 'they need to make a profit'





and here you have your problem.

No pet shops make mega-bucks, it's just not a high money/high profit industry.

This means you can't afford to pay the saqturday/sunday help much more than (if more at all) than minimum wage, this means they are not going to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination.

If we were willing to see normal corns sold at £400 each then they could pay staff £20k a year and aim at graduates, breeders and long term herpers to give knowledgeable staff.


As things stand though you get what you pay for, and the wages offered are offered low out of necessity.

Same with the pushing equipment thats not needed or not idea. They may only know what they have been told, or instructed. This includes upselling as many other items (eg sand, fancy ornaments for vivs etc) as that is where a lot of the profit comes from (it's the 'bread and biutter' stuff they sell that keeps them going, not the one or two high end animals they will sell from time to time.


At the end of the day behind every petshop and it's staff there is some poor mug who just like the rest of us has to pay his/her/their mortgage/bills/transport/food etc on top of shop running costs, shop bills, wages, supplier bills etc.


It is *very* rarely a game that makes anyone rich. Must be satisfying as hell if you get one running nicely though, you'll not be rich but I imagine if you got into the game for thye right reasons you'll sure be happy


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

Athravan said:


> That's very true. The Pet Store Management qualification is a bit of a joke if you're a specialist reptile shop.


Although it isnt surprising how bad some pet shops are managed considering when I was applying to uni and looking for animal science I think there was about 2 courses available in that area. 2 courses in 2 different colleges or unis through the whole of England isnt that great, its not the most sought after course so they dont bother with it but would help in the long run if there were more courses available whether it be NVQ, foundation or diploma.


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

I agree with a lot of the above, the simple fact that some shop owners are active on this forum goes to show they are indeed caring, interested and sharing types. They are not those whom I refer to.

Its through mediums such as this forum that we all spread the 'word' if you like, and fill that need for specialist knowledge.

I also agree that all to often, the collective 'we' are to fast to jump on the ' lets close pet shops down' bandwagon. They have a part to play in our hobby, a very important part.

I would love to see some kind of classification within the licencing system, ie, dry goods only, certain groups of animals only. And a distinction between cb for pet trade and huge volume wc imports getting into the system.

I agree also that if prices were overall higher, then there would be more money in the pot to improve the situation. Its the 'bulk imports' and supressed prices that we all have to contend with that force market prices down.

I have seen and heard the argument many times, 'if you can sell your cb at the same price as those cf or wc...', thats not the answer. those low prices support nothing but stressed animals and a lack of care. We all need to do our bit and promote the proper care of animals, and if that means a higher price, so be it.

Now, I know that some on this forum have shops, and I have never been there, but if the shops are run with the same manner as you conduct yourselves on here, then I am in no doubt that you have a great shop and care for your animals. Its those who buy stock from wholesale importers as 'units for sale' that dont.

Lets not forget one important thing, these are not cars or washing machines we are talking about, they are living animals, and as such deserve our best attention.

Oh btw, 500th post :2thumb:


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## lesvegas (Jan 6, 2007)

and a very sensible 500th post

There are good and bad people in every trade but shops play a vital part in the trade by attracting new owners. I would guess that a good 80% first fall in love with an animal in a shop where they can see and touch the animal.

I think licensing laws could be tighter in certain areas and a designated course specializing in herps would benefit the whole industry but i for one will not travel miles to go on expensive pet shop managment courses that wont help at all.

After all there is nothing better than walking into a well stocked super clean shop and choosing a little friend, thats why people will pay the prices and why shouldnt shops charge it

I cant imagine many people starting in this business to exploit animals and get rich because its very rare if possible at all

I personally would never employ anyone unless they could prove their knowledge and if they werent sure about something they would get the correct training from me or my business partner


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

lesvegas said:


> I cant imagine many people starting in this business to exploit animals and get rich because its very rare if possible at all


Unfortantly, I do know one or two (not on this forum) that are purely dealers, import under the table, sell on to petshops. trouble is, I doubt the pet shops know in a lot of cases, as these people do make a lot of money, so prices paid are not that much lower than trade.

And yes, they have been reported a number of times, and are being investigated, so I am told !!


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## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

I genuinely would MUCH rather pay more for a CB animal than less for a WC. My Timorensis is supposedly CB, I have no idea where he came from, who bred him, his DOB, whether his parents were related, nothing.

Given the choice, I'd always buy privately from the breeder directly, or would at least LOVE to see a bit more info given in store re the animals being sold. I know that the wholesaler can blag or make these things up, but thats just me being dolly daydream. Fortunately this kind of info IS available privately quite often.... 

It's just a personal preference, and I know that most of my animals are in fact WC (6 scorpions, 5 collareds), however I have been into SO many shops where it doesnt state CB or WC, CF whatever, and when you ask, they simply didnt ask the person they bought it from. Beardies are guaranteed CB, but you ask what morphs the parents were? No idea. What's he going to look like in 2 years time? No idea. To the average amateur, they aren't likely to ask these kind of questions or give a rats ass anyway, but SO many people including myself and other not so amateur hobbyists will still go and buy animals from a shop instead of online, nothing wrong in it, but the shops, and the buyers will gain so much more from this kind of service in CB animals.


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## dargos mom (Oct 18, 2006)

I have a HND in animal management, it means nothing other
than I can read a book and find information about an animal
I have learned far more by looking after and talking to people 
who look after animals than ever i did getting a qualification.
So no point in making shop owners take any exam in my humble 
opinion, total waste of time.

Also most pet shops dont have the time or space to look after
the animals, or research the animals as well as a potential owner
should. They hope to have a high turn over of animals, as they 
dont make their money off them, but off the cages/vivs etc... so they 
dont feel the need to give adequate space.

At the end of the day If you are going to buy an animal, then
surely you would have researched that animal first...cant blame
the pet shops for care/prices..if you know what you want, you
know what you are prepared to pay.. Its up to the consumer
to make decisions based on the facts that are in front of them.


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

If a pet shop does not have the time or space, then they should not be keeping them.

These are not inert bags of sand, or little plastic castles, they are living animals. If a pet shop, or indeed anyone, intends to keep them, no matter for how short or long, to keep as a pet or to sell on, then they MUST ensure they are housed and cared for correctly.

There is NO excuse for anything less.


Like I said before, there ARE pet shops who do care for thier animals, and still stay in business. Those who dont should not be permitted to keep live animals at all.


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## dargos mom (Oct 18, 2006)

dargos mom said:


> At the end of the day If you are going to buy an animal, then
> surely you would have researched that animal first...cant blame
> the pet shops for care/prices..if you know what you want, you
> know what you are prepared to pay.. Its up to the consumer
> to make decisions based on the facts that are in front of them.


Sorry may not have worded that as well as I could..yes I agree the Animals should be housed properly.. what I meant was If people did their research first, then they wouldnt buy from pet shops who either didnt care for the animals properly or who overcharged...at the end of the day its consumer power. If people didnt buy from these pet shops then they would go out of business. 

If people didnt buy on the spur of the moment and thought things through then not only would the unscrupulous breeders and petshops go out of business, also their would be less need for rescues etc.


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

dargos mom said:


> If people didnt buy on the spur of the moment and thought things through then not only would the unscrupulous breeders and petshops go out of business, also their would be less need for rescues etc.


Hear Hear !! 

Cant argue with the above at all !!


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

But would the hobby have got to where it is without petshops starting to sell reptiles in the first place?

Also, you probably wouldnt see half the suppliers of goods to go with reptiles if petshops didnt exsist? They wouldnt have a big enough market to sell to.


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

Even in the beginning the pet shops would have aquired reps from dealers and breeders back then. Bearing in mind couple of decades ago there was a lot more WC and CF species in pet shop. Still dont excuse pets shops not caring for the animals properly


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

I didn't say it did.


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

I would have thought that most reptiles suitable for keeping as pets are now cb in enough numbers to support the demand.

And yes, the hobby has evolved, to the extent that its really under the microscope now, and at risk of being halted !

I agree new animals should be researched, but as we all know, this is often not the case, and a petshop is often the first place someone looks.

As I said before, these are not comodities we are talking about, they are living creatures, and as such anyone selling them, or indeed buying, has if not a legal responsabilty (yet) but certainly a moral one to care properly for them


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## YELLOWFISH (Mar 30, 2007)

As somebody from the outside looking in, may I throw my hat into the ring?

As a business and marketing graduate I like to think I know more than most about the realities of business life. Stores exist to make profit. There can be no argument on that one. It’s not the fact that profit is being made. It’s the way it’s being made that upsets people. Coming from an aquarium background I see a lot of similar issues. Believe me, I have been “escorted” from many pet shops after protesting about the condition of their wet stock and the advice their staff were giving out. 

As I have little experience with specialist reptile shops (to me the reptile house used to be the scary place with the spiders before we got to the fish J ) I must ask these questions: 

Does the exotic pet industry have a universally recognised code of ethics and qualification scheme? The fish industry has it in the form of OATA. And practical fishkeeping has a charter that stores can subscribe to. (This is mostly do do with Genetically modified and tattooed/dyed fish) These things, while far from mandatory, allow customers to buy with a certain degree of confidence regarding the well being and quality of the livestock. 

Is there something we as the community can do to aid stores? A lot of the online stores I have visited in the UK do not have full care sheets and even then they are pretty basic. Would it be possible to compile something like a database of care sheets that are available to the pet trade free of charge? At least that way the “well intentioned but not that knowledgeable” shop assistant has something to reach for.


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## lesvegas (Jan 6, 2007)

Thats a great idea and i touched on a similar idea in a thread earlier this week

Too many caresheets offer differing advice about things such as repti sand and the harm it may or may not cause certian animals

A database of quality acurate caresheets needs to happen in my opinion also


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

The problem is .. what is accurate? Much of the information in reptile keeping is opinion.

Two people can have decades of experience in reptile keeping and one swears by sand and the other swears it's dangerous. I know big breeders of geckos who use sand and will argue blind that there is no danger for adults. I know many reputable breeders who advise strongly against it. I know gecko breeders who only feed their geckos mealworms, nothing else. I know many people who say crickets need to be the staple and vary the diet.

The way we keep our reptiles is greatly down to personal choice, opinion and experience. Two caresheets can be vastly different but still considered correct by two different experienced people so how do you choose definitively what you should say that is "correct" ?

(Outside of basics like enclosure size, temperature, humidity, etc. these should be fairly constants now due to the decades of research and observation of natural climates.)


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