# new law



## scorpionking (Feb 15, 2009)

hi i have just read the new law on DWA animals Defra, UK - Error page was wanderring does anyone think that the following words are true.#58-It should be noted that the provisions of the animal welfare act apply only to vertebrates and do not include invertebrate species.This is on the basis that,on current scientific understanding,only vertebrate species are considered to be able to experiance pain and suffering. surely inverts can feel pain and infact suffer .please give your views on this subject.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

scorpionking said:


> hi i have just read the new law on DWA animals Defra, UK - Error page was wanderring does anyone think that the following words are true.#58-It should be noted that the provisions of the animal welfare act apply only to vertebrates and do not include invertebrate species.This is on the basis that,on current scientific understanding,only vertebrate species are considered to be able to experiance pain and suffering. surely inverts can feel pain and infact suffer .please give your views on this subject.


not really sure what you are enquireing about mate. 

I belive the statement is with regards to live feeding, and means that its ok to feed live insctes to animals. The reason is insects dont feel pain due to absence of a central nervious system. However, this again is debated, depending on the species?

Since you state insects feel pain, how do you justfy feeding your scorp??


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

I just thought they could thrive or not thrive, but that is a pure guess, maybe they can feel pain... you would have to ask them.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> hi i have just read the new law on DWA animals Defra, UK - Error page was wanderring does anyone think that the following words are true.#58-It should be noted that the provisions of the animal welfare act apply only to vertebrates and do not include invertebrate species.This is on the basis that,on current scientific understanding,only vertebrate species are considered to be able to experiance pain and suffering. surely inverts can feel pain and infact suffer .please give your views on this subject.



What do you know that modern science doesn't? If current scientific understanding suggests they can't feel pain then who are we to say otherwise? Isn't it a bit of an insult to the training and expertise of scientists for lay people to have a contradictory view on such matters??

(I hate this "new-wave" postmodern idea that every opinion is a valid one).


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

its been neither proved or disproved


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

essexchondro said:


> What do you know that modern science doesn't? If current scientific understanding suggests they can't feel pain then who are we to say otherwise? Isn't it a bit of an insult to the training and expertise of scientists for lay people to have a contradictory view on such matters??
> 
> (I hate this "new-wave" postmodern idea that every opinion is a valid one).


Someones had a good day.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> Someones had a good day.


Well that's one way of shying away from addressing the points I've made.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

You didn't make points - you asked questions (?)

Anyway....

Inverts certainly respond when being eaten/mutilated.
I think 'feel pain' per say is too subjective. They have no CNS so can't
feel pain in the same way vertebrates do but perhaps they have chemical signals that lead to these responses?

I'm sure one day we'll find out.

(just as a weird experiment, hold a locust facing you and look into it's eyes. Now move the locust slowly side to side. It's eyes will follow yours!)


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Caz said:


> You didn't make points - you asked questions (?)
> 
> 
> (just as a weird experiment, hold a locust facing you and look into it's eyes. Now move the locust slowly side to side. It's eyes will follow yours!)


Eerm, correct me if I'm wrong but don't Locusts have compound eyes with numerous fixed lenses and therefore are incapable of moving their eyes to follow yours, they may move their head, but unless you have an extremely advanced locust then I would doubt they move their eyes:2thumb:


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

essexchondro said:


> Well that's one way of shying away from addressing the points I've made.


I pretty much agree with what you say

You made it sound more like a winge than a point though.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

stuartdouglas said:


> *Eerm, correct me if I'm wrong but don't Locusts have compound eyes with numerous fixed lenses and therefore are* *incapable of moving their eyes to follow yours*, they may move their head, but unless you have an extremely advanced locust then I would doubt they move their eyes:2thumb:


Ok. They have movable retinula cells. More technically-: autonomous pigment movement in the radial pupil of the ocelli. This moves around - and follows your eyes! There is a paper on it somewhere.
Try it Stuart! :2thumb:


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

what excalty does looking into there eyes(weather they move or not) prove.

CCTV follows me around in hmv but dont mean it can feel pain lol

I personally cant say they can feel it or cant feel it.
Everything thats proven tends to be disproven by someone else.

if i remember correctly wasnt it beleived sceintifically impossiable for 80 years for a bee to be able to fly. but yet they can and took along time to figure out excalty how they fly.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

wildlifewarrior said:


> *what excalty does looking into there eyes(weather they move or not) prove.*
> 
> CCTV follows me around in hmv but dont mean it can feel pain lol
> 
> ...


Nothing? Or perhaps they are aware that they are looking into the eyes of a potential predator? - as said on the previous page - just a fun experiment.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> You didn't make points - you asked questions (?)
> 
> Anyway....
> 
> ...


My questions where rhetorical.



> I pretty much agree with what you say
> 
> You made it sound more like a winge than a point though.


It was partly a winge...at the mentality of the OP as implied by their post.


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## 50%man50%biscuit (Mar 17, 2009)

essexchondro said:


> (I hate this "new-wave" postmodern idea that every opinion is a valid one).


Not a fan of Ray Hoser then :whistling2:

GB


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

50%man50%biscuit said:


> Not a fan of Ray Hoser then :whistling2:
> 
> GB


well I was thinking of changing the naja genus to SiUKtrodon


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## Donz (Jan 8, 2009)

essexchondro said:


> My questions where rhetorical.
> 
> A rhetorical question is one that requires *no answer* because the answer is obvious and doesn't need to be stated . The speaker (of the rhetorical question) is not looking for an answer but is making some kind of a point, as in an argument.
> 
> ...


*Just because the OP has an opinion, does not bring in to question his mentality!*


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## 50%man50%biscuit (Mar 17, 2009)

SiUK said:


> well I was thinking of changing the naja genus to SiUKtrodon


 Do it! Then someone will produce their very own journal, peer reviewed by themselves, and then slag you off for being a criminal! 

Happy days

GB


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## jaysonc3 (Nov 20, 2008)

This as far as I am aware has been around for sometime which is why you can sell insects and spiders on e-bay but not reps.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> How can you therefore complain that they didn't answer your points!


Did I asked anyone to _answer_ my questions and complain when they didn't?? 



> *Just because the OP has an opinion, does not bring in to question his mentality!*


The OP's post clearly acknowledges that current scientific thinking suggests that invertebrates can't feel pain...but the OP then goes on to suggest that "surely" this isn't the case. Anyone that can make such a statement, which not only flies in the face of current scientific thinking but also lacks any new evidence (at least none was stated) to back up that claim, surely either knows something that modern science doesn't or they are talking emotively about something they know jack :censor: about? I would say that that does say something about their mentality.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> Did I asked anyone to _answer_ my questions and complain when they didn't??
> 
> The OP's post clearly acknowledges that current scientific thinking suggests that invertebrates can't feel pain...but the OP then goes on to suggest that "surely" this isn't the case. Anyone that can make such a statement, which not only flies in the face of current scientific thinking but also lacks any new evidence (at least none was stated) to back up that claim, surely either knows something that modern science doesn't or they are talking emotively about something they know jack :censor: about? I would say that that does say something about their mentality.


it depends what scientists are looking at it tbh


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## Juggernaut (Aug 10, 2008)

not saying they do feel pain, but if they dont, why would they fear us, or attempt to attack/defend against us, what would tell them we are a threat if we cant hurt them?

if i couldnt feel pain, i would never live in fear

jus sayin is all : victory:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

well they could have a sense of self preservation without feeling pain.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Please remember that if it is found that invertebrates can feel pain - it could be considered cruel (or eventually illegal), to feed live insects to lizards. There would certainly be a backlash and many complications were crickets given the same rights as mammals for example. Which has more right to live, a cricket, or a lizard? At the moment it is considered a lizard, but if insects are elevated in status then it will become a battle.

If invertebrates were added to the AWA (Animal Welfare Act), it would certainly prohibit sending them by royal mail - including all feeder insects such as crickets. You would have to pay for a courier with a livestock license (ie. TNT at £15+) to get your livefood delivery.

It is currently not legal to kill many types of animals in the UK (unless you have a hunting permit, they are a pest, etc). Will it become illegal to kill a spider because it's cruel? Slippery slope.


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## Mememe (Feb 15, 2009)

Athravan said:


> Which has more right to live, a cricket, or a lizard? At the moment it is considered a lizard, but if insects are elevated in status then it will become a battle.


Not really about the right to life though - just the right to not 'suffer' unnecessarily. Rats, cows etc. feel pain, but we decide our snakes, dogs, cats should feed.

The only battle will be about feeding live/transportation (battery chickens are far more overstocked), and in my experience, crickets have a much quicker death from a lizard than I could provide and still maintain the body's integrity.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

Athravan said:


> Please remember that if it is found that invertebrates can feel pain - it could be considered cruel (or eventually illegal), to feed live insects to lizards. There would certainly be a backlash and many complications were crickets given the same rights as mammals for example. Which has more right to live, a cricket, or a lizard? At the moment it is considered a lizard, but if insects are elevated in status then it will become a battle.
> 
> If invertebrates were added to the AWA (Animal Welfare Act), it would certainly prohibit sending them by royal mail - including all feeder insects such as crickets. You would have to pay for a courier with a livestock license (ie. TNT at £15+) to get your livefood delivery.
> 
> It is currently not legal to kill many types of animals in the UK (unless you have a hunting permit, they are a pest, etc). Will it become illegal to kill a spider because it's cruel? Slippery slope.



But should we/research scientists etc ignore the (very vague and I believe very very slight) possibility that they do feel pain just so lizard keepers can feed their pets cheaply....?


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## Cockys Royals (Jun 28, 2008)

Wonders if OP eats meat. Everyone & everything has to eat no matter what, its a food chain. Life sad as it seems it happens.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

SiUK said:


> well I was thinking of changing the naja genus to SiUKtrodon


 You can't, I've already decided that the genus will now be called Douglaseria..............on the basis that all the brown colored snakes belong in the same genus. I've published a journal..............on this computer, and reviewed my findings and found them to be accurate.


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## kenneally1 (Feb 17, 2009)

sorry for the newbie question , but who's ray hoser?


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

hes is an australian herpetologist, who performs venomoid procedures (making a venomous snake non venomous by removing its venom glands) in his home in a very barbaric manner, he is know as the snake butcher and despised by most herpetologists.


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## kenneally1 (Feb 17, 2009)

just done a bit of research, is he the bloke changing the cobra classification.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

he was trying to change rattlesnake classification Crotalus genus, apparently there is some validity in the way they are seperated but no chance of him changing them.


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## kenneally1 (Feb 17, 2009)

Siuk, sorry to go a bit of thread , but i'm in the process of writing a novel. Typically i've decided one of the caracters later on in the story will be keeping snakes (alerts others to his gnostic viewpoint).For this i decided on a carpet viper. You couldn't point me in the direction of any good books/papers for research could you.
thanks


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