# Mixing Species



## Barney_M (Apr 2, 2008)

*This was not written by myself it was written by a friend of mine namd Devin Edmonds.*

*Introduction
*A terrarium that houses multiple species of amphibians and reptiles together often sounds like a great idea. A combination of different types of frogs, salamanders, lizards, turtles, or snakes in one cage adds a new ingredient to the average mono-species terrarium, and makes a fascinating display. Zoological institutions often recreate naturally occurring communities in large elaborate exhibits which engage the public. Can a private hobbyist accomplish the same thing at home?​ Generally, private hobbyists struggle to accommodate multiple species in one terrarium, and most should avoid attempting to do so, instead sticking to species-specific setups. With this article I hope to outline some of the most common problems encountered when different species are kept together in the same enclosure, and hopefully provide people with a better understanding of what’s involved in keeping a community reptiles and/or amphibians.​ Many hobbyists like to think of reptiles and amphibians in a similar way as tropical community fish. At the local fish store there are dozens of different species of fish that can be plopped into the same tank and live fine together. This can be accomplished because there are many different fish that require similar or identical care. Water temperature, water quality, diet, aquarium setup, and other care requirements are often alike for different species. Unfortunately, the same can not be said for reptiles and amphibians. Even those that occur together naturally often occupy different microclimates in the wild and require drastically different care in captivity. When multiple species are kept together, often at least one has their care compromised in order to accommodate the others. Our goal as hobbyists should be to provide the best possible care we can for our herps, not stretch them to their limits in order to create an attractive display tank.​ *Common Problems**

Cage Size 
*Cage size is probably the most common mistake made when keeping a community reptile and amphibian terrarium. Space is important in multi-species setups, more so than in setups designed specifically for one species. It’s important that all animals in the cage have room to have their own territory, hunt for food, regulate their body temperature, and otherwise behave normally without the threat of aggressive cage mates causing problems. Standard aquarium sizes are usually too small to accomplish this when multiple species are kept together, and the long, low rectangular shape most are manufactured in is not ideal for community reptile and amphibian tanks. Next time you visit a zoo that has a tank that houses multiple species together make sure to take note of the size of the enclosure. Most are large cubes that that measure several feet in length, width, and height, and a similar cage size should be applied if reptiles and amphibians are kept together at home. For most, a terrarium of this size is not practical or possible to keep in the home and therefore most private hobbyists have difficulty keeping different species together in one cage.

It’s also important to understand that a terrarium offers far less room than wild reptiles and amphibians usually occupy. In the wild there is plenty of room for reptiles and amphibians to go about their business without others interfering. It’s rare for two different species to come near each other unless one is trying to eat the other. When multiple species are placed into a glass cube that is the size of only a small fraction of the space they would occupy in the wild there is a greater chance that something will go wrong or that they will interact with each other in a negative way. Even species that occur naturally together in the same environment generally maintain a large distance from one another, or at least more space than a terrarium can offer.​ _*Predation*_
One of the most common problems encountered when keeping multiple species in one cage is that one of the species becomes food for the other. Most commonly kept carnivorous reptiles and amphibians will attempt to eat anything that moves. The size of prey that can fit inside an amphibian or reptile’s mouth is often surprising. As a general rule, only keep different species together that are the same size. It’s also important to realize that even though cannibalism may be taboo in most human cultures, it certainly is not off limits to amphibians and reptiles. All animals in the cage, even those that are the same species, should be similar in size.​ _*Conflicting Environments *_
It’s essential to understand the environmental conditions that different herps need prior to keeping them. Accommodating different environments in one cage is difficult (often impossible in small enclosures) to do. If the environments needed by different species don’t match up they should not be kept together. Particularly important is temperature. Most reptiles should be provided with a range of temperatures in their environment, while most amphibians should be exposed to a smaller thermogradient. It’s often difficult to provide these different temperature requirements in one cage, which makes mixing reptiles with amphibians hard to do successfully. The preferred humidity level is also important to take into consideration. Species from arid regions should never be kept with those from tropical climates, it will not work well. In addition to temperature and humidity, the actual physical environment is important. Some species are aquatic and will need a large water area, while others are strictly terrestrial and can drown in deep water. Some species prefer a deep soil substrate that they can burrow in, while others are arboreal and need different perches and climbing spots. It is hard to provide these different environmental conditions in one terrarium, particularly in smaller cages.​ _*Toxicity*_
A commonly overlooked problem is the toxicity of the animals being kept. With the exception of two species of lizards, the only venomous reptiles are certain species of snakes, nearly all of which are poor candidates for a multi-species terrarium. On the other hand, there are hundreds of poisonous species of amphibians that are commonly recommended as good species to mix together. Keeping poisonous species of amphibians with other animals is risky for obvious reasons. Some common species of amphibians that are poisonous are fire-bellied toads (_Bombina_ species), red-banded walking frogs (_Phrynomantis bifasciatus_), fire-legged kassina running frogs (_Kassina_ species), common true toads (_Bufo_ species), Cuban tree frogs (_Osteopilus septentrionalis_), tomato frogs (_Dyscophus_ species), mantella frogs (_Mantella_ species), and most newts and salamanders. These amphibians should not be housed with others.​ _*Diet Differences *_
Some amphibians and reptiles that are close to the same size, live in similar environments, are not poisonous in captivity, and would presumably do fine if kept together sometimes do poorly because they require different types of food to eat. Diet is one of the most important parts of permanently maintaining captive reptiles and amphibians. Unfortunately, not all species eat the same food, and those that do often don’t eat the same sizes of food. Both red-eyed tree frogs (_Agalychnis callidryas_) and blue poison dart frogs (_Dendrobates azureus_) will eat crickets, but the former of the two will only recognize larger crickets as food, while dart frogs are not capable of eating large feeder insects and need to be fed hatchling crickets. Although feeding both sizes of crickets is one possible solution, this may end poorly because large feeder insects that go unnoticed may attempt to eat reptiles and amphibians that do not eat them first. In the abovementioned scenario, the adult crickets for the red-eyed tree frog could potentially harm the dart frogs. It’s also necessary to understand that not all reptiles and amphibians are equipped equally to catch food. Those that are stronger often bully other weaker species out of food, eventually leading to the death of the weaker species.​ *What species can be kept together?
*So the big question: What species of reptiles and/or amphibians can be kept together? Generally speaking, if you have to ask if two different species can be kept together you should not attempt mixing them because you don’t understand their care requirements enough to do so, and do not have the experience needed to identify common problems that may develop in a multi-species terrarium. Instead, it’s strongly recommended that the different species of interest be kept separately for an extended period of time prior to housing them together. This will give you time to recognize what their normal behavior is, as well as understand what’s involved in caring for them.​ One combination that can work well is keeping different North American tree frogs together, such as green tree frogs (_Hyla cinerea_) and gray tree frogs (_Hyla versicolor_). Most species require fairly similar care and can be kept together in a large enough terrarium. Avoid keeping Cuban tree frogs (_Osteopilus septentrionalis_) with other frogs because they are poisonous, grow large, and love to eat other amphibians. Certain species of poison dart frogs (Dendrobatids) have been kept together successfully by some hobbyists. Avoid any species that could potentially produce hybrids, instead sticking to dart frogs from different genera such as _Dendrobates azureus_ with _Phyllobates bicolor_. Anoles (_Anolis_ species) are a common lizard that is mixed in with frogs, but I would advise against this unless the terrarium is very large and a significant temperature gradient can be provided safely without risking the frog’s safety. It also can be difficult to locate healthy anoles, and unhealthy animals should never be kept with others. Small day geckos (_Phelsuma_ species) have also successfully been kept with certain species of frogs, but again the same precautions should be taken as when keeping anoles with amphibians. As general rule, avoid mixing snakes with other reptiles and amphibians because their care requirements are often different than those of other types of herps. Avoid mixing turtles and tortoises with other types of reptiles and amphibians for the same reason. Aquatic basking turtles, such as painted turtles (_Chrysemys picta_), red-eared sliders (_Trachemys scripta_), and map turtles (_Graptemys_ species) may live well together, although it's important to watch for behavior problems and to pay attention to differences in dietary requirements. Larger reptiles are almost always best kept either alone or with others of the same species because they are too difficult to manage when kept in terrariums with other reptiles and amphibian.​ None of the above combinations are foolproof or completely safe by any means. Whenever two species are kept together there is a larger risk of problems occurring than when they are kept separate, and it’s important to understand this before mixing species. Those that are listed above are just combinations that I have seen other hobbyists have success with, and are not strict rules to follow. I always urge hobbyists to keep species-specific tanks rather than community terrariums because it is safer for the captive animals.​ _*Quarantine*_
Prior to keeping different species together it’s crucial that all animals are isolated in separate enclosures for at least one month, preferably longer. During this period of time, observe all animals and ensure that they are healthy and eating. The isolation cages should be kept as clean as possible, and it’s advised that the keeper washes their hands and any shared equipment between cages to prevent possible pathogens from spreading between them. It’s also strongly recommended that fecal samples be collected and taken to a veterinarian who can examine them for internal parasites.​ _*In Conclusion *_
Keeping a multi-species terrarium takes research, time, money, and space to provide. It’s something that most hobbyists are not able to do safely, and that most should avoid. Although it’s common to see mixed community tanks in zoos and other institutions, these facilities are able to provide the care needed to maintain them. Most have a full time exotic-specialty veterinarian on staff so that when problems do occur a vet can be called in immediately. They also have other resources that the average hobbyist does not, such as a large budget and an entire staff of experienced employees that specialize in maintaining animals. The community amphibian and reptile tank is something that should only be attempted by veteran hobbyists who have the resources needed to maintain and keep one. Those who are new to keeping reptiles and amphibians but still want a multi-species terrarium might consider safer options, such as using one tank to maintain several species that are separated by glass dividers.​


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

good post!!!!!!:no1:

can we have this made into a sticky please???
so we can throw it people who ask what species they can keep together :lol2:


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## Mbar (Aug 12, 2007)

Thats great. Definitely needs to be a sticky as this question cimes around more frequently than Groundhog Day and saps the will to live :smile:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Excellent post. will be very usefull when the weekly mixing question comes up:lol2:


STICKY PLEASE MODS.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

"Generally speaking, if you have to ask if two different species can be kept together you should not attempt mixing them because you don’t understand their care requirements"

This is a great point. 

Agreed with the stickiness.


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

I would disagree with this statement:-

"This can be accomplished because there are many different fish that require similar or identical care. Water temperature, water quality, diet, aquarium setup, and other care requirements are often alike for different species. Unfortunately, the same can not be said for reptiles and amphibians. Even those that occur together naturally often occupy different microclimates in the wild and require drastically different care in captivity. "

I have seen no evidence that there are more fish species whose ecological niches are 'more alike' and fewer herp species whose ecological niches are 'less-alike'.

Also, it's worth maiing the point that species differ in the range of conditions that they will tolerate; some need very precise environmental conditions, whereas other can tolerate a wide range of temp, humidity etc. Where the tolerances of two species overlap, they can be kept together (subject to quarantine, predation issues etc).


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## morg (Jul 20, 2007)

Excellent post Barney M
check out this page as well for lots of examples of what can go wrong
Caudata Culture Articles - Species Mixing Disasters


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

I don't agree with this article at all, it's very negative and I think that there are already plenty of negative posts on mixing already, there is nothing new in it at all. Should not be a sticky.

There are lot's of reptiles, amphibs,crabs even birds that can be kept together.
Of course it's not something that a novice should attempt, there are many single species that a novice shouldn't keep.

Community tanks for fish are much the same, there are a great many fish that can't be kept in a community tank. For much the same reasons as keeping a mixed viv.

Cost-wise it is not beyond the means of hobbyists,If you have say, 4 vivs, the cost of running them is little different to running one large one.
Of course it takes experience, time and thought and lots of planning, that's the joy of keeping any animal.

The writer states that animals need space, of course you shouldn't overcrowd a viv, even if it's a single species viv. Size-wise you wouldn't put a hatchling anole with adults, it would get eaten. 

It's as we hobbyists have no common sense, only zoo's can do this. It's hobbyist that have given the zoo's the knowledge in the first place.

Community vivs are not a no no, they are perfectly possible, there is plenty of advice around for those that want to do it, I've had only community vivs for at least 15 or so years and they have been very successful.

So,really the debate should be on what can be kept together and how to go about it.
cheers arthur


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Arthur, 

Please consider that this is not aimed at experienced keepers but for the general herper that is new or relatively new to reptile or amphibian keeping. As such I think it remains a very useful guide.

Check the passage I quoted above, I think that's the most pertinent point. If you don't understand a species, you shouldn't be asking if it can be kept with another.


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Arthur,
> 
> Please consider that this is not aimed at experienced keepers but for the general herper that is new or relatively new to reptile or amphibian keeping. As such I think it remains a very useful guide.
> 
> Check the passage I quoted above, I think that's the most pertinent point. If you don't understand a species, you shouldn't be asking if it can be kept with another.


Other than what I have said above, I have no problem with the article in that it makes the point mixing certain species is possible if you have the correct experience. Ironically, however, those who rail against mixing on forums such as this are usually evidently the inexperienced whose knowledge stems mostly from the internet rather than practical experience.

I think you'll find that the 'old farts' among us (no offence Arthur) who can point to 30-odd years of keeping experience are a lot more chilled about these things.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Hi Morgan, but people have to start somewhere, If some one approached me to ask that particular question, it doesn't always mean that they have no experience, they could for example be keeping say, long tailed grass lizards and green anoles separately, they are nervous that there might be problems, so they ask for advice, some p.m. me because they are worried that they will get some stick from the forums.

I will of course advise best as I can, but really these questions should be asked on the forum, because this is one of the ways we learn. I have learnt lots from just browsing this and captive bred forums. Many people don't post but just browse.

I want to see the day when community or mixed species vivs become part of the normal herps community, instead of it being a sort of underground movement.

I think if people read the debate on the lizard forum all the points that are in the article have been well covered and much more.

Amphibs and mixing is a bit more difficult than lizards, there are many toxic amphibs.
What hasn't been done is research into the toxins, I would bet that some of these toxins are the same, so mixing wouldn't be a problem due to natural immunity.

I do see where you are coming from, that inexperienced people should not try mixing, I totally agree with this, but I think it is time for some positive thinking re mixed vivs.

cheers arthur.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Cheers Matt :smile:
cheers arthur


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I'll admit my knowledge isn't as extensive as most on the forum, so my advice, when I do give it, will be to not mix species unless you really know what you're doing. For someone like yourself who clearly knows what they're doing I'm not going to raise any concerns.

If mixing certain species is successful then of course there's no reason why people shouldn't do it with the appropriate knowledge. I'm not against mixing per se but from my short time on the forums it seems the majority asking don't have much knowledge at all, let alone have the knowldge to mix species.

The only way mixing, done correctly of course, to become popular is for people, like yourself, who mix and haven't had problems to explain how to do it and to provide the information that will help those who want to attempt mixing. 

Some posts have been a bit blunt and rude towards mixing questions, some of this of course is just plain rudeness but others I guess will be frustrated my the apparent lack of research by the poster. Hopefully if we can provide good, genuine advice to everyone then there can be a more positive view towards mixing certain species.


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## TheToad888 (Dec 18, 2008)

Nice post and useful information. I agree that anoles shouldn't be kept with frogs. The guy at my local pet shop was trying to sell a whites tree frog with 2 anoles. I told the people and him how a Whites tree frog could grow big enough to eat an anole. They guy got angry with me and the people just bought the single whites tree frog. I daren't go back in that shop now!


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

i do agree with the point about fish keeping, to many people jump fish in just because they see them in water that is the same as theres and think Yeah it will be ok. without considering geographical differences ect.

When it comes to amphibians providing the geographical area is the same does not mean the requirments will. Some live high, some live low, some need deep water others cant swim.

Yes there are some things that will mix, like certain frogs with some small lizards but IT IS something that should only be considered by experienced hobbyists with good knowledge of the species they are trying to mix.

IMO if you have to ask the question you should not be attempting it.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Mixing anoles with whites is not some thing I've tried, but I have succesfuly mixed grayes, north american green and red eyes with anoles. Plus many other reps.
cheers arthur


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## TheToad888 (Dec 18, 2008)

arthur cooke said:


> Mixing anoles with whites is not some thing I've tried, but I have succesfuly mixed grayes, north american green and red eyes with anoles. Plus many other reps.
> cheers arthur


Don't do it!!! Anoles just get eaten eventually!!!


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

mixing species is not above any herper, however.............
as we all know little is known about amphibian toxins and so much trial and error within small private keepers can only end up with dead amphibians.

of course if a herp keeper is willing to do the time and research into each individual species, instead of coming onto a forum and asking "What frogs are safe to keep together" , then i have no problem with it.
I know it isnt always the case but when i see that question it always looks to me as if the person asking is indeed too lazy to do the research and just wants an easy answer. The question does not in anyway install the idea that the frogs that person wants to keep together have even been individually researched properly.
Amphibians are actually species complex and each species have certain enviromental needs, species related behaviour and different toxins.

of course it isnt the case that amphibains should never be mixed, its a case of amphibians should never be mixed unless you know the species inside and out.
you also have the situation of say, 2 geographicly similar species living at different altitudes, some on say, a forest floor and some that are arboreal. realisticly these 2 differnt species rarely come into contact and even though they are in the same area they will have a different temperature and different humidity, largely based on what altitude they live at.


Mixing species shouldnt be done by the inexperienced..... i stand by that statement.


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## Roho (Mar 1, 2009)

adlock:

Definitely a great post!


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Toad, when I say I have mixed anoles with frogs, they were mixed for years, their whole lives, not just for a few weeks.

Pliskin, with a big enough environment, It's possible to create micro climates. Just needs a bit of thought.

I agree that experience is the biggest factor, but having said that, we all have to start some where, otherwise no one could start to keep any reptile at all.

I suspect that there are a number of people on here who have set up mixed vivs, but they don't talk about it for fear of being flamed. They should be encouraged to come and talk about it and give every one a chance to hear about how they have gone about it.This is a benefit to those of us who are interested in keeping our animals in naturalistic conditions.

There are stages to keeping mixed vivs, stage one is that you have to create the right environment, which involves learning about plants, there light, water and other requirements, you need to understand about substrates and what lives in it, how to keep it sweet, plants don't like sour soil. You have to have an understanding of ventilation and how to use it to create micro climates,believe me, it is not just knowing your animals. There is a large learning curve. fitting animals in is the very last part of it.

When you have created a natural habitat, it needs to run for a good length of time, so that bacteria and other micro organisms can get established, some tropical plants, like orchids and others need micro fungi to take up nutrients, so soil conditions have to be right for all these to survive.

There will be problems that have to be solved, like not spraying plants with tap water, lime and other stuff in tap water kills plant leaves and eventually all this builds up in the soil and leads to the micro organisms dying and your plants too.
The environment become just as important as the animals, just as you need to be able to look at an animal and think, there is something wrong, so you need to be able to look at the plants etc and think, there's something wrong here.
There is so much to learn, by the time you have done all this, you might be ready to put a reptile or two in.

Your standard shop built viv is no good at all, you need far more height, you need a substrate at least 10 to 12 inches deep, in my last one I had 15 inches. and I could've done with more.

Faced with all this, only people who are prepared to go this extra mile carry on, most give up and go back to the standard way of keeping herpes.
It's not that it costs more money, it's that you have to be prepared for all the time and research.

So it is not about throwing some animals together.
When you plan the viv, you have to consider things like number of basking spots, how will this effect the plants, ponds,making sure your tree frog doesn't drown, providing some moon light so that night hunters don't mistake another animal for a cricket. Realising that the locusts will eat your plants.

My point being that there is more to these type setups than knowing your animals. 

Some things I've forgotten to mention, like how do you clean, you can't go digging up your plants every five minutes. Finding a natural way of cleaning up the waste is quite difficult.

cheers arthur


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

I have to agree with anoles being kept with CERTAIN species of frogs. I know a tank that has them and there has been no problems at all. 

I will be adding some green anoles to my new set up along with the frogs and have been researching into it for a while. 

I do agree that it is possible for certain species to be mixed, but for the average keeper, and definatley the people that come on here to ask it is not something for them.

If more people that have mixed tanks were to come forward and give help and advice on achieving it succesfuly then i think the topic will be less taboo.

My advice is normally not to as people are asking questions like whites and fire bellied toads which everyone must agree is a bad idea. But if some one has the space, expereince, knowledge of the species concerned and the confidence to try it i would not flame them for that.

basicly what im trying to say is if people are sensible about there mixing, stick to species from the same regions then i have no problem with it.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

would just like to point out that this is also used article is also used on Amphibiancare.com and has been since 21-5-2008


Amphibiancare.com >> Mixing and Keeping Different Species of Reptiles and Amphibians Together


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## TheToad888 (Dec 18, 2008)

knighty said:


> I have to agree with anoles being kept with CERTAIN species of frogs. I know a tank that has them and there has been no problems at all.
> 
> I will be adding some green anoles to my new set up along with the frogs and have been researching into it for a while.
> 
> ...


Mixing species just is not good. Anoles, in my opinion should not be kept with frogs. They don't in the wild so why should they in captivity!? Its just... not a good idea. It is also cruelty in some cases.


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## Barney_M (Apr 2, 2008)

knighty said:


> would just like to point out that this is also used article is also used on Amphibiancare.com and has been since 21-5-2008
> 
> 
> Amphibiancare.com >> Mixing and Keeping Different Species of Reptiles and Amphibians Together


This is correct devin runs the site. He also has 2 published books. nice bloke - email him hes full of knowledge.


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## TheToad888 (Dec 18, 2008)

Barney_M said:


> This is correct devin runs the site. He also has 2 published books. nice bloke - email him hes full of knowledge.


Wow... His website is very useful.


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## Barney_M (Apr 2, 2008)

he is a brillaint bloke i email him frequently as he is involved in a lot of projects particularly mantellas - he is always in Madagascar!


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## TheToad888 (Dec 18, 2008)

Barney_M said:


> he is a brillaint bloke i email him frequently as he is involved in a lot of projects particularly mantellas - he is always in Madagascar!


Wow! Mantells are amazing! Lucky guy!


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

TheToad888 said:


> Mixing species just is not good. Anoles, in my opinion should not be kept with frogs. They don't in the wild so why should they in captivity!? Its just... not a good idea. It is also cruelty in some cases.



yes i agree in some cases it would be cruelty, but anoles are from the same geographical range as some frogs. People are preaching about things that they are not fully aware of. It is fact that in the wild certain species have a high chance of encountering each other, and have the same habitats.



Barney_M said:


> This is correct devin runs the site. He also has 2 published books. nice bloke - email him hes full of knowledge.


Would it be possible to put me into contact with him. Pm me if you like


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Of course you will find anoles with frogs in the wild, you will also find a whole host of different reptiles living side by side, the rough green snake lives along side the brown anole and some times the green as does the north American tree frog.
Come on guys, try and be more open minded about this, no animal lives on it's own, they are surrounded by all sorts of other creatures too, I kept a pair of orange cheeked waxbills in the same viv as reps, they bred too and the offspring are still alive and well. 
I have to point out that I do speak from experience,built my first mixed viv in 1985, after about 5 or 6 years I decided to build something bigger and then in about 2003 I built my walk in viv, which I've been running down over the last 2 years because I'm moving to Italy, where I intend to build something even bigger.
These viv s have been an absolute joy to me over the years and I would've stopped if I had thought that I was being the slightest bit cruel. I am very fond of the animals I keep, I can honestly say that i have not lost a single animal due to it being in a mixed viv.

I can tell you that I've had hatchling anoles survive to adulthood in my mixed viv, my long tailed grass lizards bred, I must admit that I removed them because I was worried that they would be eaten and reared them in a separate viv, they might of survived but I didn't want to take a risk.

cheers arthur


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Perhaps those who know Devin could ask him to come on here for a debate with me, as long as it is civil, it could be very interesting.
cheers arthur.


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## Barney_M (Apr 2, 2008)

arthur cooke said:


> Perhaps those who know Devin could ask him to come on here for a debate with me, as long as it is civil, it could be very interesting.
> cheers arthur.


sorry but i doubt he will come on here. he keeps himelf to himself. He expresses his points of view via his website. As I am sure your aware mixing species is more a point of view than fact or fiction


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Ok, altho I would have said that it's a matter of skill, but there you go.
cheers arthur.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Barney_M said:


> As I am sure your aware mixing species is more a point of view than fact or fiction


Yes and i think until solid evidence is provided it will always be. I think that if people were more aware of there animals natural surroundings rather than just there viv requirements opinions would alter.


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## tincerbell (Mar 28, 2009)

Hey guys,
Much has been written about mixing dart frog species, but we have had much success - so we lose a few to fights but that’s just SO DARWIN, n'est-ce pas? Only joking, but we're wondering what to do with the eggs that have 24 pairs of different coloured webbed feet sticking out of each one.....
Just take a look at my new communal tank ... took me ages to build and probably cost more than if I'd just bought one ... but I think you'll agree it was worth it! Plants aren't thriving as much as I'd like but that's the price you pay for feeding adult locusts - expensive as hell but they just yum them up!​


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Lol!!!!!!!


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## TheToad888 (Dec 18, 2008)

knighty said:


> yes i agree in some cases it would be cruelty, but anoles are from the same geographical range as some frogs. People are preaching about things that they are not fully aware of. It is fact that in the wild certain species have a high chance of encountering each other, and have the same habitats.
> 
> 
> 
> Would it be possible to put me into contact with him. Pm me if you like


I'm talking about whites. Anoles are from amaerica and whites tree frogs are from australia and indonesia. I have been talking about whites and have said thatlots of people put them in together. So i am not 'preaching about things i am not fully aware of' 
Tell me some frogs commonly kept in captivity that live in the exact same place Anoles are from.


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## TheToad888 (Dec 18, 2008)

tincerbell said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> 
> Much has been written about mixing dart frog species, but we have had much success - so we lose a few to fights but that’s just SO DARWIN, n'est-ce pas? Only joking, but we're wondering what to do with the eggs that have 24 pairs of different coloured webbed feet sticking out of each one.....
> Just take a look at my new communal tank ... took me ages to build and probably cost more than if I'd just bought one ... but I think you'll agree it was worth it! Plants aren't thriving as much as I'd like but that's the price you pay for feeding adult locusts - expensive as hell but they just yum them up!​


lol!!! Great set up!!!


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Grays tree frog. But as long as the general conditions match there is no problem.
cheers arthur


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Barny, what did you mean when you said mixing species was more a matter of opinion.

I've thought about this and I have to say that this can't be right, I have mixed species and my mixing has been successful. So really it a matter of fact, It's not at all my opinion, I have been doing this for years.
I'm not on my own either, many have done it successfully.

So the question that I'd ask is that why are some so against, when all around them are success stories of mixed vivs.

Sure I understand that people would be against the beginner mixing, sure I understand that people don't want to take risks. But excluding the beginner I see no reason why mixing is not in the main stream. Why do people want such rigid rules.

We who mix are trying to replicate the wild, are trying to have a better understanding of the creatures we keep, to increase our knowledge. All of which must be to the benefit of herpetculture generally.

An example of this is that when I was trying to rehome one of the finches that had bred in my viv, I phoned several finch keepers to see whether they could help me rehome him, when I said that I'd bred these finches, they were all amazed and told me that they were extremely difficult to breed and since the ban on imports had almost died out in captivity. They wanted every detail as to how I'd kept them and the conclusion was that it was the naturalistic surroundings, access to insects and the fact that there were other creatures in the viv and the birds felt at home because of this.I don't want to bore every one with the tiny details but these bird keepers learnt something from me, despite the fact that they were bird breeders for years.

cheers arthur


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Arthur would you mind posting pics of your set ups? Would be interesting to see.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Hi Morgan, There's a few pics of the walk in viv, which is a conseratory on Captive bred.

conservatory - CaptiveBred Reptile Forums, Reptile Classified, Forum

They were snatched from a video, I have videos of several vivs and I am going to try to do something on Utube but I have to admit to being a bit of a dunce where computers are concerned, it took hours to upload those pics on captive bred.

With the walk in viv I have been slowly closing it down and rehoming most of the creatures as I am getting ready to move to Italy.
I'm only taking my rough greens to Italy.
cheers arthur


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