# Could it happen



## Irishjack1992 (Jan 11, 2012)

My mate wants to get a 8ftx3ftx3ft custom tank and wants so called "Monster Fish" in there, such as catfish and so on but im not sure its gonna be big enough


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Irishjack1992 said:


> My mate wants to get a 8ftx3ftx3ft custom tank and wants so called "Monster Fish" in there, such as catfish and so on but im not sure its gonna be big enough


all depends on what particular fish & how big they get.


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## berry1 (Sep 25, 2010)

Irishjack1992 said:


> My mate wants to get a 8ftx3ftx3ft custom tank and wants so called "Monster Fish" in there, such as catfish and so on but im not sure its gonna be big enough


With most monster fish they are either going to get stunted or outgrow the aquarium as very few people even on the MFK network have aquariums large enough to house a 4 foot + fish. If you gone by the average rule of thumb an aquarium needs to be 4 x the length of the fish then to keep a red snakehead you would need a 24 foot long tank! lol but yes a 8 x 3 x 3 is large enough for a monster fish tank. Red snakeheads are sold throughout the uk and i doubt most of them go to 8ft + aquariums! So imho by housing monster fish in a 8 x 3 x 3 your doing the fish a big favour as most will be going to 10g tanks. 

Upgrade to 8 x 4 x 4 and get a aba aba! :lol2:


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Experienced and ethical fishkeepers will advise that the tank needs to be an absolute minimum of six times the maximum fishes length with the tank width being at least twice the maximum length of the fish. 

For realistic sizes you're best using this website :-

www.fishbase.org.

The dimensions are quoted after people noted that they require these kinds of lengths to set off, move and stop as well as being able to turn around in some level of comfort. Smaller sizes simply restrict the ability of the fish to exhibit natural behaviour which some people see as cruel. 

You will find some sensible information here :-

BigFishCampaign.org - Aims


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## Fargle (Aug 8, 2013)

Setting out to keep "Monsterfish" is always going to end is a very expensive disaster that is ultimately cruel to the fish. Even your "standard" Red Tailed Cat or Pacu are going to outgrow the tank. An 8x3x3 could be a wonderful tank if you just stock it with lots and lots of smaller fish. Ultimately cheaper in the long run and would make a much more impressive statement than having one or two large fish sitting glumly in the corner.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

There's been a big push in the industry not to import large fish such as red tailed cats and pangasius. Many shops have now changed their policies and no longer sell them. You can still find them but they're not as numerous as they once were which is a good thing in my humble opinion.


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## berry1 (Sep 25, 2010)

So going off the information on this thread you would need a 36 foot long x 12 foot wide aquarium to house a single red snakehead happily? lets be realistic here i dont think anyone in the UK buys these monsters from the pet stores for a aquarium of them dimensions. Their are plenty of fish keepers who keep monster fish in much smaller aquariums than this and are extremely experienced the fish you choose to keep and tank size does not reflect your experience. 

Keeping a fish in captivity or any animal for that matter could be considered cruel and does the fish really care if the tank is 8 foot instead of 12 foot long? who decides on this average rule of thumb that the aquarium needs to be 6 times the max length of the fish? surely we dont know that the fish need these dimensions afterall they cant tell us can they? 

Fact is these species are still regularly imported and showing up in local pet stores for people to buy who will probably consider a 30g tank to be a monster aquarium lol! So is putting the fish in a 8 x 3 x 3 such a bad thing?


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

The big fish campaign is a project undertaken by BIAZA or the British and Irish Association of Zoos and Aquariums. They set it up after they got bored taking calls from ignorant morons who bought fish they couldn't house properly and automatically assumed the local zoo or public aquarium would take the fish off their hands. 

Your post highlights perfectly the need for a campaign like this.


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## berry1 (Sep 25, 2010)

Mynki said:


> The big fish campaign is a project undertaken by BIAZA or the British and Irish Association of Zoos and Aquariums. They set it up after they got bored taking calls from ignorant morons who bought fish they couldn't house properly and automatically assumed the local zoo or public aquarium would take the fish off their hands.
> 
> Your post highlights perfectly the need for a campaign like this.


100% agree with the campaign getting most of the monster fish out of the shops would be great. But for the right £££ you will always be able to get mini monsters providing there is a market for monster fish there will always be people willing to import them even if a import ban was put in place. Just like you can still pick up a monkey without dwa providing you have the right £££. 

Was speaking to a US retailer of rare species last week and he was happy to ship me a Arapaima gigas into liverpool airport for £180. Not that i would buy this fish was just curious if they would ship out of America.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

berry1 said:


> 100% agree with the campaign getting most of the monster fish out of the shops would be great. But for the right £££ you will always be able to get mini monsters providing there is a market for monster fish there will always be people willing to import them even if a import ban was put in place. Just like you can still pick up a monkey without dwa providing you have the right £££.
> 
> Was speaking to a US retailer of rare species last week and he was happy to ship me a Arapaima gigas into liverpool airport for £180. Not that i would buy this fish was just curious if they would ship out of America.


That doesn't make it right though.


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## Kif (Jan 15, 2010)

A 8x3x3 tank would be an awesome size but I would still not feel comfortable stocking anything bigger than 12-15 inches.
It's funny how people think about "big fish" how many people would put 1 inch neon's in a 6 inch tank ? not many i'm guessing, but ask about "big" fish and a 2 foot fish is fine in a 8 foot tank.
Keeping fish is about finding a balance after all we are placing something in captivity and it's about trying to provide an enviroment where it can thrive not just survive.
Leave the really big stuff to the wild/public aquaria or at a push people with tropical ponds.
Just my thoughts.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

berry1 said:


> Was speaking to a US retailer of rare species last week and he was happy to ship me a Arapaima gigas into liverpool airport for £180. Not that i would buy this fish was just curious if they would ship out of America.


:lol2: He saw you coming then.

That's about double the rate you can buy them from retail here in the UK already. Not only that you won't have all the hassle and paperwork associated with a CITES species. I take it's that's not something you've done before. 

And since when did Liverpool airport allow importation of live animals? Do CEFAS know? You'd get one through Manchester, Heathrow or Gatwick.


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## berry1 (Sep 25, 2010)

Kif said:


> A 8x3x3 tank would be an awesome size but I would still not feel comfortable stocking anything bigger than 12-15 inches.
> It's funny how people think about "big fish" how many people would put 1 inch neon's in a 6 inch tank ? not many i'm guessing, but ask about "big" fish and a 2 foot fish is fine in a 8 foot tank.
> Keeping fish is about finding a balance after all we are placing something in captivity and it's about trying to provide an enviroment where it can thrive not just survive.
> Leave the really big stuff to the wild/public aquaria or at a push people with tropical ponds.
> Just my thoughts.


No i would not keep a 1 inch neon tetra in a 6 inch tank but not because of space issues i wouldn't do it because such a small body of water would be extremely unstable and the slightest fluctuation could pollute the water enough to kill the fish. In a 8 x 3 x 3 aquarium this is hardly the case as the water volume is much larger and i would assume would have much larger filtration so the tank would not fluctuate nearly as much as a 6 inch tank. 

Personally i would go up to about a 30 inch fish in a 8 foot long aquarium but the only sort of fish species i like keeping are fish that get over 12 inches long and most not under 36 inches so my views on what is cruel and what is not is probably different than the most of you on here. 




Mynki said:


> :lol2: He saw you coming then.
> 
> That's about double the rate you can buy them from retail here in the UK already. Not only that you won't have all the hassle and paperwork associated with a CITES species. I take it's that's not something you've done before.
> 
> And since when did Liverpool airport allow importation of live animals? Do CEFAS know? You'd get one through Manchester, Heathrow or Gatwick.


Thats including shipping from the US and have you asked around about them recently mynki? very few retailers in the UK stock them and ive not even come across them even with retailers that specialize in rare species. 

Sure someone probably will stock them in the UK but very few retailers want to order in a species that has been known to grow over 2.3m in length.


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## genuspython (Feb 20, 2010)

*Tank builders*

Hi, can you help me with details of a bespoke tank builder in the UK. I am after a 8 x 4 x 3ft. I have been let down twice already and I am now getting desperate for a quality builder. Regards Sean


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## berry1 (Sep 25, 2010)

genuspython said:


> Hi, can you help me with details of a bespoke tank builder in the UK. I am after a 8 x 4 x 3ft. I have been let down twice already and I am now getting desperate for a quality builder. Regards Sean


What area are you in sean?


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

berry1 said:


> Personally i would go up to about a 30 inch fish in a 8 foot long aquarium but the only sort of fish species i like keeping are fish that get over 12 inches long and most not under 36 inches so my views on what is cruel and what is not is probably different than the most of you on here.


 It's obvious that you and other including myself have fundamental differences in thinking on fishkeeping. You believe it's ok because people do it anyway. 

I believe that if it can't be kept properly, then keep something instead that can. 



berry1 said:


> Thats including shipping from the US and have you asked around about them recently mynki? very few retailers in the UK stock them and ive not even come across them even with retailers that specialize in rare species.
> 
> Sure someone probably will stock them in the UK but very few retailers want to order in a species that has been known to grow over 2.3m in length.


 I know the UK trade very well, as I'm part of it. I can obtain pretty much anything if I really want too. There are Arapaima gigas available for sale here in the UK right now for £100 each. 

They're being sold by someone I believe is an incredibly irresponsible moron as he offers monster fish for sale without making any checks on their housing, so I won't add a link. But it should take you less than 30 seconds to find them available online.


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## Blurboy (Feb 9, 2007)

Just because a Red Tail would "fit" into an 8x3x3 doesn't make it right to do so. I've worked in the trade and I do believe big fish belong only in the big public aquariums or living free. If I was getting an 8x3x3 it would be filled with Malawi cichlids for sure. in fact I'm just about to put a 6x2x2 together and can't wait :mf_dribble:


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## Fargle (Aug 8, 2013)

A little bit of me died when I went into my local shop and saw RTC's on a deal if you buy two!!

I love how this thread has basically become a bitch on monster fish, which by the way I'm loving, and the OP hasn't commented. I'm part of the BIAZA Big Fish Campaign and as someone said, it's exactly the OP or "his mate" that the campaign is aimed at.


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## berry1 (Sep 25, 2010)

Mynki said:


> It's obvious that you and other including myself have fundamental differences in thinking on fishkeeping. You believe it's ok because people do it anyway.
> 
> I believe that if it can't be kept properly, then keep something instead that can.
> 
> ...


Indeed very interesting i dont actually want a Arapaima gigas would never purchase such a fish with its potential size and waste just wouldn't have the housing for such a fish even if i was going off what i usually use as a rule being the tank 4 times the fishes maximum length still would be far to large lol. 

I guess we can agree on some points though i do feel that monster species should not be sold as frequently as they are to people without adequate set ups. I for sure would like to see more checks in place to make sure aquarists can actually house the fish species that they purchase. 

Generally keeping fish in captivity in my opinion could be considered cruel anyway now this doesn't stop me keeping fish but the general idea of keeping a fish that could normally swim for miles in a box. Even a large box is still restricted they are going to bump into them glass sides sooner or later. As a example look at most of the types of tangs they would usually swim for miles in the ocean and in aquariums are usually limited to 50g+ if they are lucky.

OP post your question over at Monsterfish Keepers people will tell you what they currently have stocked in 8 x 3 x 3 tanks to give you a general idea of what size fish can be kept and are kept in similar tanks.


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## genuspython (Feb 20, 2010)

berry1 said:


> What area are you in sean?


Hi there, I am in London/SE Sidcup. Its a big tank so I will need delivery. Also I need a corner cut off, in 15mm Float glass and this is the important bit, only 100mm bracing round the edge, nothing across the middle. Its so I can lift fatty out (Leon my Alli Snapping Turtle)

Thanks Sean


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## Irishjack1992 (Jan 11, 2012)

I asked if it could happen, Fargle i aint commenting coz this thread went from advice to imports to someone wanting something done for them. So pipe down


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## Nicquita (Mar 14, 2009)

Aren't you the guy whose 'mate' wanted free ceramics and things? 

I don't think it's particularly nice to tell people to pipe down. Haven't you already had your answer?


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## Irishjack1992 (Jan 11, 2012)

Yes im that guy. But whats that got to do with this  well tgats your opinion but i can tell someone what i think. If thats a problem, then get off my thread  kind regards ME


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## Nicquita (Mar 14, 2009)

'Well that's your opinion but I can tell someone what I think' - exactly what I'm doing funnily enough. If you have that right, so do I 

It's an open forum, so just because you started it doesn't mean that you can kick people off of it. They don't seem like 'kind regards' to me. I'm certainly not going to refrain from commenting just because you said so. 

It doesn't have anything to do with this thread, just think that you have a lot of mates and wondering if anything you post is for personal use.


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## Irishjack1992 (Jan 11, 2012)

Thats nice  anyways i asked on behalf of a friend, because sometimes you get people getting rid of bits and bobs and i would of gave them his number and leave it to him. You see you can comment fine go ahead. Enjòy expressing your thoughts but if you aint gonna comment anything useful with regards to the title of the thread then please go. Im asking if it could happen ive seen what people posted doesnt mean i have to reply coz i have willing accepted all advice and people thank you  at the moment the tank is sitting in his front garden, he didnt exactly think of how to get it in his house because its all awkward. His patio is on the side of house and then theres a sharp left turn and then again. So its either take the front windows of his house off or convert the garage


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## Nicquita (Mar 14, 2009)

You've had you answer. It can't happen and he could instead have a decorative tank filled with smaller fish.


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## Irishjack1992 (Jan 11, 2012)

He needs to get the tank in his house first and get a cabinet made. He can put what he wants in there but he has his mind set on a shark dont ask which one or where he will get it from


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## berry1 (Sep 25, 2010)

Nicquita said:


> You've had you answer. It can't happen and he could instead have a decorative tank filled with smaller fish.


Well yes he has had his answer but it is the exact opposite to what you just said nicquita. Plenty of people have large tanks around 8 feet in length with plenty of larger fish and even monster species, he does not have to stock his tank with smaller fish. 

Whether its morally wrong to some people or not he can still put whatever he likes in his tank.



Irishjack1992 said:


> He needs to get the tank in his house first and get a cabinet made. He can put what he wants in there but he has his mind set on a shark dont ask which one or where he will get it from


He could go with a bamboo shark if he wanted a real shark they are saltwater sharks so would need plenty of maintenance and good filtration. Bamboo sharks are available online for £70 to £100 each depending on size.

As i said before ask your question again over on http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/forum.php people on that forum actually own monster aquariums unlike most members here. Asking here is like asking all the neon and goldfish keepers what they think of keeping monster fish that are regularly fed goldfish as feeders lol!


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## Nicquita (Mar 14, 2009)

I read back through to double check, and you're actually the only person who's response I 'exactly opposed'. I said smaller fish, not tiny ones. I just happen to be of the opinion that fish need a lot of space


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

genuspython said:


> Hi there, I am in London/SE Sidcup. Its a big tank so I will need delivery. Also I need a corner cut off, in 15mm Float glass and this is the important bit, only 100mm bracing round the edge, nothing across the middle. Its so I can lift fatty out (Leon my Alli Snapping Turtle)
> 
> Thanks Sean
> 
> image


I think it would be post to start your own threads - either here for recommendations or in the main Shelled section.

Could you not build your own indoor pond instead of a glass tank?


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## johne.ev (Sep 14, 2008)

Sad fact is that most of these monster species, be they fish, reptiles etc, end up being passed from pillar to post way before the end of their expected lifespan. Once they become hard work, expensive to maintain etc, which they inevitably will. The majority of people become bored, the reality of what they have taken on sets in & they decide to TRY & move it on & most of the time struggle to even give it away. Same thing happens with the next keeper & so on & so on.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

berry1 said:


> He could go with a bamboo shark if he wanted a real shark they are saltwater sharks so would need plenty of maintenance and good filtration. Bamboo sharks are available online for £70 to £100 each depending on size.
> 
> As i said before ask your question again over on MonsterFishKeepers.com people on that forum actually own monster aquariums unlike most members here. Asking here is like asking all the neon and goldfish keepers what they think of keeping monster fish that are regularly fed goldfish as feeders lol!


 For balance, many respected aquarists believe that MFK is a bit of a joke. Whilst it's acknowledged that there are a handful of decent keepers on there with genuinely large, public aquarium sized tanks, these number less than 1% of the forums membership.

The majority are either kids who think big fish are cool, or wannabees who like the idea of keeping something big and controversial but who can't actually afford to house their fish how they'd like too. 

Historically you've had a lot of kids create 'leagues' where you need to have a 20" or so catfish to join, and then they try and compete with each other to see who the biggest keepers are, welfare is never considered. I'm guessing the leaders in these leagues would lose a penis length league....

As for people discussing species they have not kept before, that's you isn't it? Have you kept any sharks personally Berry?

By the way, what happened to your clownfish?


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## johne.ev (Sep 14, 2008)

I personally think sites like MFK, don't do any impressionable keepers (young or old) any favours at all. Most of the time these are people who don't understand exactly what is required both financially & commitment wise, to keep many of these larger species.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

I had a chat with well known and well respected catfish enthusiast Mats Peterson at a previous Aquatics Live show. Mats is one of the driving force behind www.planetcatfish.com and www.aquaticrepublic.com, Two exceptionally good fishkeeping resources. He'd done the maths to work out the real cost of keeping a red tail catfish for life correctly. Anyone care to guess what figure he came up with?


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Mynki said:


> I had a chat with well known and well respected catfish enthusiast Mats Peterson at a previous Aquatics Live show. Mats is one of the driving force behind www.planetcatfish.com and www.aquaticrepublic.com, Two exceptionally good fishkeeping resources. He'd done the maths to work out the real cost of keeping a red tail catfish for life correctly. Anyone care to guess what figure he came up with?


Is it....



Mynki said:


> to successfully keep a red tail cat for it's life you'd need approximately £50,000


That was the last time you name dropped him


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## Fargle (Aug 8, 2013)

UK

This guy did it properly and was still forced to close down due to costs. 6 grand a year just in the electricity?!?

I worked at a public aquarium where we had a "tank busters" exhibit, like pretty much every aquarium in the UK. There was barely a week that went by where people didn't ring up trying to get rid of an RTC, or pangasius or pacu or even a ripsaw cat. This was the reason BIAZA started the Big Fish Campaign. I'm sure there are people keeping tank busters properly but a tiny tiny percentage compared to those keeping, or aspiring to keep them. 

To try and do it properly is just ruinously expensive once pumps, lights, filters, water, electricity, food, treatments, vets and every other little expense is factored in.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Fargle said:


> I worked at a public aquarium where we had a "tank busters" exhibit, like pretty much every aquarium in the UK.


London aquarium have multiple vast vats (the width of my house) downstairs out back, full of random un-re-home-able and un-display-able tankbusters, alongside their tank full of RTC's and the like.


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## Irishjack1992 (Jan 11, 2012)

Banded leporinus, Silver Arowana? Could you keep them together?


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

AshMashMash said:


> Is it....
> 
> 
> 
> That was the last time you name dropped him


That's 'cos nobody else has ever come up with a realistic figure. 

That said, they should live for around 70 years and electricity prices have risen considerably since then, so you do the maths...... 

I'm sure Berry can do it for £132.13 though......


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Just asked him if he had a new figure with increased electric costs. Apparently it will between £15 to £20 per day to run a tank of sufficient size.


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## GlassWalker (Jun 15, 2011)

Random thoughts:

Is there some point where it would be economic (the lower cost option) to transport and release them to the wild? Assuming there are no other political or environmental barriers.

Are they tasty? For sure pangasius has been on the menu at work before, sold as a cheaper alternative to cod I understand. I know, suggesting people eat their pets is not the done thing. Parts of my family have already shown an interest in my Oscars, not in a good way...


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## berry1 (Sep 25, 2010)

Mynki said:


> For balance, many respected aquarists believe that MFK is a bit of a joke. Whilst it's acknowledged that there are a handful of decent keepers on there with genuinely large, public aquarium sized tanks, these number less than 1% of the forums membership.
> 
> The majority are either kids who think big fish are cool, or wannabees who like the idea of keeping something big and controversial but who can't actually afford to house their fish how they'd like too.
> 
> ...



That post alone just shows how uneducated and small minded you are mate! clearly you have not took any time to actually observe the MFK boards or maby you have but not for the last 20 years? something like that because clearly you have not a clue what your talking about. The majority of MFKs have large aquariums much larger than the tanks most of you guys have i would say over 30% of the board has built or purchased large aquariums over 500g.

DIY Tanks

That link above has 1721 pages of mostly aquarium builds with the majority being around 1000g + mark. 1721 pages that incidentally are being updated with new threads daily sounds a awful lot of aquarium builds. But according to you the majority of MFK are wannabe kids that see who can grow the biggest catfish! 

I dont recommend fish that i have not kept before which is why i recommend a bamboo shark as ive kept a banded bamboo shark. Problem with that? oh let me guess im a terrible animal killer who confines bamboo sharks :lol2:

And my clowns where doing just fine gave them away to a friend who started up a 10g nano as far as i know they are still doing fine. Im sure i remember you saying they was going to die in that fluval edge but no they was just fine for a number of years 

Now ive not got time to argue with a uneducated old moron so go do yourself a favour mynki and reply to someone who actually gives a s*** oh and you just enjoy keeping them neons and i will stick with my larger species.




Mynki said:


> That's 'cos nobody else has ever come up with a realistic figure.
> 
> That said, they should live for around 70 years and electricity prices have risen considerably since then, so you do the maths......
> 
> I'm sure Berry can do it for £132.13 though......


Nah definitely couldn't do it for £132.13 but i could do it for a shit load cheaper than £50,000 lmao never heard such a over inflated bullshit number before.


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## Fargle (Aug 8, 2013)

Glasswalker- Releasing them into the wild would present major obstacles. First the transport of an adult animal would be prohibitively expensive. Most of the cost you pay for a fish comes from the shipping costs as everything has to be flown at the fasted rate possible. 

Secondly there would be ethical barriers about releasing a fish that had been dependent on human feeding for a number of years back into an environment where it would have to hunt and avoid predators.

Thirdly environmental reasons in that you have no idea what pathogens the animal has been subject to in it's captivity that you could potentially be introducing into the habitat.

As for eating them then it entirely depends on species. As far as I'm aware most catfish are very boney with not particularly good flesh. Even pangasius is farmed and sold off incredibly cheap. If someone WAS willing to eat it I can't see any physical or legal barriers, but this would also apply to eating the family dog!

It's a lovely thought to release them back into the wild but in all honesty I think the time money and effort involved would be better spent on not bringing them in to the country in the first place and leaving the care to them to public aquariums where they can live comfortably for the length of their lives.......or even better leave them in the river where they were born.


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## INJAF (Nov 12, 2011)

berry1 said:


> Nah definitely couldn't do it for £132.13 but i could do it for a shit load cheaper than £50,000 lmao never heard such a over inflated bullshit number before.


Just to pick up on the question of how much it costs to keep an RTC or similar for its lifetime ... Jonny Rudd, curator of Bristol Zoo Aquarium and part of the Big Fish Campaign, did a calculation for PFK, the article is here if anyone's interested  Seems £50k is a drop in the proverbial 

How much will this fish cost to keep in its lifetime? | Features | Practical Fishkeeping


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## berry1 (Sep 25, 2010)

INJAF said:


> Just to pick up on the question of how much it costs to keep an RTC or similar for its lifetime ... Jonny Rudd, curator of Bristol Zoo Aquarium and part of the Big Fish Campaign, did a calculation for PFK, the article is here if anyone's interested  Seems £50k is a drop in the proverbial
> 
> How much will this fish cost to keep in its lifetime? | Features | Practical Fishkeeping


Im sure them calculations from jonny rudd are slightly inflated compared to the size aquarium that most keepers would construct for a RTC. For example it would cost far less to house one of them in the bare minimum dimension tank compared to housing a RTC in a large public aquarium. Im not saying they dont need public aquarium sized tanks but as we all know the size of public aquariums varies widely. 

The costs are effected to much by the general setup including if you use low energy pumps, what food you choose to feed the catfish even where you source the food. So for me i would say it can be done far cheaper but im not saying them calculations are complete crap either it just depends on a number of variables.


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## Nicquita (Mar 14, 2009)

berry1 said:


> Im sure them calculations from jonny rudd are slightly inflated compared to the size aquarium that most keepers would construct for a RTC. For example it would cost far less to house one of them in the bare minimum dimension tank compared to housing a RTC in a large public aquarium. Im not saying they dont need public aquarium sized tanks but as we all know the size of public aquariums varies widely.
> 
> The costs are effected to much by the general setup including if you use low energy pumps, what food you choose to feed the catfish even where you source the food. So for me i would say it can be done far cheaper but im not saying them calculations are complete crap either it just depends on a number of variables.


Anything that lives around 30 years and needs a huge living space, extra heat, water changes, food and electronics such as pumps is going to be an incredibly large drain on resources - definitely more than you would suggest. Not to mention if the owner ever needs to move house or circumstances change, there's nowhere for the fish to go. If you need to move house and rehome a tanks worth of small fish, it will be relatively easy. That's wouldn't be the case with a catfish


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Oh Berry1, reduced to name calling and making up things now?

It was just over two years ago that you stated on your youtube channel that the clowns in your marine nano tank had died, despite people on here advising why it wouldn't work. Only you didn't admit that on here. :whistling2:

So first of all you say...



berry1 said:


> Nah definitely couldn't do it for £132.13 but i could do it for a shit load cheaper than £50,000 lmao never heard such a over inflated bullshit number before.


 Yet you've not provided your own figures? If you want to be taken seriously, you need to provide your own breakdown, a credible breakdown though, and RTC's live for a lot longer than 30 years, well at least when kept properly.



berry1 said:


> Im sure them calculations from jonny rudd are slightly inflated compared to the size aquarium that most keepers would construct for a RTC. For example it would cost far less to house one of them in the bare minimum dimension tank compared to housing a RTC in a large public aquarium. Im not saying they dont need public aquarium sized tanks but as we all know the size of public aquariums varies widely.
> 
> The costs are effected to much by the general setup including if you use low energy pumps, what food you choose to feed the catfish even where you source the food. So for me i would say it can be done far cheaper but im not saying them calculations are complete crap either it just depends on a number of variables.


 As above, you say you think the costs are over inflated, but your thoughts mean nothing Berry1, lets see your breakdown and calculations for feeding and electricity over the next seventy years eh. You still think £50k is BS? 

I don't think you'll be able to come up with a credible response, but I'd be more than happy if you prove me wrong and provide a sensible set up quote and plausible running costs from the real world. 

The balls in you're court....


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## INJAF (Nov 12, 2011)

I've been pondering this (my commute gives me plenty of pondering time!) and the figure quoted in PFK isn't unreasonable. I keep goldfish, just thinking back to the set up costs for the most recent two tanks I have and that was probably about £1500 per tank just for the 'hardware' (most of which was second hand). Then there's been replacements for various bits since then of course. Then add in several hundred pounds for plants (I'm serious, I've spent a king's ransom on plants over the years and will probably continue to do so!). Food doesn't come cheap (they also eat the plants) and I spent £50 on food this month. That'll do them for a few weeks but it doesn't last long. Then there's the cost of running 20 feet of light tubes, two 25 litre thermofilters, 24/7 airstones etc. I've not even tried to calculate that! 200-400 litres of water every week (again, not tried to calculate that). £215 vet bill just before christmas to get a tumour removed from a ranchu, wouldn't fancy taking a 3' RTC to the vet … 

According to my personal accounts I've spent about £1000 over the last year just on food, plants, odds and sods etc. Add in the costs of hardware, water, power … then add that up over the life of a goldie which on average should be 10-15 years for a fancy and 25+ for a common. Then multiply it up for a much bigger tank and much bigger food bills etc. for an RTC (my tanks are a 'mere' 600 litres each) over a 30 year lifespan and PFK's quote probably works out. 

Yes, you (royal you) could do it for less, but if you don't have the funds maybe you should reconsider the species you want. Don't cut corners, compromise and make do 'for now', just choose the fish to suit your wallet (something about champagne lifestyles on lemonade money  ) That's a general comment, not aimed at anyone in particular 

I'm aware there are some who may mock the link below, but it's a slightly different take on things:
Red Tailed Catfish - an aquatic big cat - INJAF

As an aside, releasing non-native species in the UK is illegal. More info here:
https://www.gov.uk/non-native-fish-and-shellfish
The Prohibition of Keeping or Release of Live Fish (Specified Species) (Amendment) (England) Order 2003
Section 14 here Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981

HTH


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## berry1 (Sep 25, 2010)

Mynki said:


> Oh Berry1, reduced to name calling and making up things now?
> 
> It was just over two years ago that you stated on your youtube channel that the clowns in your marine nano tank had died, despite people on here advising why it wouldn't work. Only you didn't admit that on here. :whistling2:
> 
> ...



Wow im not exactly sure that im the one that is making things up! because i have a youtube channel with no videos on it and ive never had videos on it lol. Plus i have posted plenty of pictures of my aquariums but never have i put videos up. So im not exactly sure who's youtube channel you've been looking at. If you have even been looking at someones channel but that for sure was not my comments. 

My clowns are doing just fine in someone elses tank as of now the parrot cichlid aint doing so good though ! :devil: 

As i said in my last posts running costs are going to be widely dependant on what corners you choose to cut or if you dont cut any at all. As i said before where you source your food and supplies from will impact costs drastically. Are you going to give the RTC a tank of 25 foot in length? or are you going to go much smaller around 10-12 foot. All these things from my view point will change the running costs to much to give a set in stone figure. 

And the life span of the RTC do you know what the oldest living in captivity RTC is? i would be surprised to hear them living 70 plus years in a captive environment. Im not saying its impossible but its been shown time and time again that fish do not live the same life span in captivity as they do in the wild. 

Lets look at electricity costs though the average is about 15p per kilowatt pumps are generally energy efficient and low wattage so i highly doubt they would cost anything like £50,000. Im not saying it wont be expensive and the pfk calculations are probably a huge underestimation if you gave the fish a near perfect environment and space but there are plenty of corners that can be cut to save on costs. 

Just to summarise my clowns are NOT dead :lol2: might want to check the right youtube channel before you assume its mine infuture as a lot of people seem to like the idea of clowns in fluval edges its quite popular on youtube : victory:


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Berry, it was yours, You're such a fibber.

I guess the average lifespan of an RTC in captivity is a fraction of what it is in the wild due to people not being able to keep them properly. When you think about it, this is bad as most animals live for longer in captivity due to better diet and health care.

But all you're saying is you think everyone else figures are wrong, when they have actually investigated the costs.

You have not provided any detailed numbers and so your opinion is at present nothing but drivel. Until you produce some calculations which can be verified and scrutinised I'd suggest you know nothing. It looks like you're looking for excuses to be honest...


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## berry1 (Sep 25, 2010)

Mynki said:


> Berry, it was yours, You're such a fibber.
> 
> I guess the average lifespan of an RTC in captivity is a fraction of what it is in the wild due to people not being able to keep them properly. When you think about it, this is bad as most animals live for longer in captivity due to better diet and health care.
> 
> ...



Fibber? nope not at all i haven't a frigging clue what your on about Mynki ive lost plenty of fish in the last 2 years including 3 pangassius cats, 2 silver dollars, 1 angel fish and a large parrot cichlid as i mentioned in a earlier post but no not lost any clown fish. The only thing i can assume is that you think that the clowns are no longer around because apparently nano marine tanks are always disasters and deciding to "fib" about it saying i said it in a youtube comment. I dont even post videos on youtube as my camera is shit :lol2:

I dont think everyone elses figures are wrong i simply think they are inflated compared to if you wanted to do it on a strict budget and a minimal sized aquarium. You can spend £50,000 on a goldfish tank if you want but they can be maintained far cheaper  

Excuses? about what? im simply stating that a RTC can be kept for far less than £50,000!

*Irishjack1992 - Banded leporinus actually make very good tank makes for arowanas. Most large fish that grow at a similar rate and are to large to be eaten usually make good tank mates with arrows *


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

berry1 said:


> Fibber? nope not at all i haven't a frigging clue what your on about Mynki ive lost plenty of fish in the last 2 years including 3 pangassius cats, 2 silver dollars, 1 angel fish and a large parrot cichlid as i mentioned in a earlier post but no not lost any clown fish. The only thing i can assume is that you think that the clowns are no longer around because apparently nano marine tanks are always disasters and deciding to "fib" about it saying i said it in a youtube comment. I dont even post videos on youtube as my camera is shit :lol2:
> 
> I dont think everyone elses figures are wrong i simply think they are inflated compared to if you wanted to do it on a strict budget and a minimal sized aquarium. You can spend £50,000 on a goldfish tank if you want but they can be maintained far cheaper
> 
> ...


 Tells me what I suspected Bezza....

You say you can do it, but you can't prove it. Which is why no one appears to be taking you seriously.


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## Fargle (Aug 8, 2013)

I'm sure you _could_ keep an RTC for less than £50k by "cutting corners", I'm sure I _could_ keep a dog on £2.65 a week, but most would argue about the quality of life of the poor animal. If something costs a lot of money to keep you shouldn't be keeping it unless you can afford to, not look at cutting corners and saving costs at every turn just so you can keep it. I'd love to keep a pet hippo but I would never even try unless I had a spare £100,000 (random guess) lying around.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Yep, but those were figures qutoed by people who know what they're talking about and keeping it correctly.  

P.S I've see hippos kept in a 'fish tank'.


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## berry1 (Sep 25, 2010)

Mynki said:


> Tells me what I suspected Bezza....
> 
> You say you can do it, but you can't prove it. Which is why no one appears to be taking you seriously.


Ok so you want me to buy a RTC and document every step of the process on here noting down every cost to prove that it "can" be done cheaper? 




Mynki said:


> Yep, but those were figures qutoed by people who know what they're talking about and keeping it correctly.
> 
> P.S I've see hippos kept in a 'fish tank'.


Well if keeping it properly involves what you said a bit a go about the tank should be atleast 6 times the maximum length of the fish then £50,000 is a huge huge underestimation. 

The cost alone to run a 450w pump for a year is over £1300 you'd need much more than a 450w pump for a 30 foot long tank so the electricity bill alone to run the pump i would say would come to over £8,000 a year thats not including heating or food. Now thats going by what you say about keeping the fish properly in a aquarium 6 times its maximum length. 

I could do it for far cheaper sure! because i dont believe a fish needs a aquarium 6 times its maximum length but thats just my opinion. But if you say the pfk calculations are done by a guy thats giving the fish all it needs then its for sure a underestimation.


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## berry1 (Sep 25, 2010)

Fargle said:


> I'm sure you _could_ keep an RTC for less than £50k by "cutting corners", I'm sure I _could_ keep a dog on £2.65 a week, but most would argue about the quality of life of the poor animal. If something costs a lot of money to keep you shouldn't be keeping it unless you can afford to, not look at cutting corners and saving costs at every turn just so you can keep it. I'd love to keep a pet hippo but I would never even try unless I had a spare £100,000 (random guess) lying around.


Indeed true but my simple thought on what you just said is that i would say 95% of the RTCs or probably even more sold in the UK are going to 10g or something similar tanks and wont probably live past the 1 to 2 year mark. So by providing the fish a tank of much larger dimensions its not such a bad thing.

Still much smaller than the fish probably needs but what difference does it make? the fish will still almost certainly be going to a much smaller tank than it needs whether you purchase it or not. Plus a experienced fish keeper can care for the fishes needs much more than a newbie to the hobby. I know thinking from the RTCs side of things would i rather go in a 8 x 3 x 3 fully cycled tank maintained by a experienced aquarist or a 30g uncycled tank maintained by a inexperienced keeper. 

I dont think the same applies for hippos :lol2:


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## Fargle (Aug 8, 2013)

But then why are people purchasing them when they know they can't provide adequate care for them?! Just because people are doing it is a long long way from making it right, or even acceptable. These fish migrate hundred or even thousands of miles every year, to suddenly confine them to a small box is cruel enough in itself, but to confine it to a box that is only 2-3 times it's length is tantamount to torture. These, and indeed all "monster fish" need lots of room and to provide that room costs money, lots of money.

Just because you're providing a slightly bigger box than 95% of other people doesn't suddenly make that practice right, it just makes it every so slightly less wrong.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

berry1 said:


> Ok so you want me to buy a RTC and document every step of the process on here noting down every cost to prove that it "can" be done cheaper?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bezza, you're such a coward!!! Man up and put some figures for it's whole life care. You disagree that six times length is required. Just a few posts ago you said four is ok, so you can start with getting a quote for a tank measuring 18' feet in length as it's maximum lengh is a quarter of that.

Stop fibbing, stop ducking the question, stop accusing others of being poorly educated when you yourself cannot even provide any evidence. Man up and add some figures, or look like an uneducated moron. :lol2:


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

berry1 said:


> Still much smaller than the fish probably needs but what difference does it make?


I remember when you were banned Berry, well I remember more than one occasion, but the time you were banging on about how you know and could make live grenades was the most amusing.

I'm trying to decide which post is the most moronic? But this one certainly tells people how much you really care about captive animals.


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## berry1 (Sep 25, 2010)

Mynki said:


> I remember when you were banned Berry, well I remember more than one occasion, but the time you were banging on about how you know and could make live grenades was the most amusing.
> 
> I'm trying to decide which post is the most moronic? But this one certainly tells people how much you really care about captive animals.


I will add some figures tomorrow pretty tired now as been up since 2am but wont have a issue with putting some calculations up. Keeping in mind a juvenile RTC would not need a 18' aquarium for quite sometime.

I just knew this shit was gonna come up well i really dont give a f*** you can mention all my old posts all you like but the fact that i stated that hand grenades where incredibly easy to make has nothing to do with this thread. Although im betting that you was probably the moron who printed the posts off and got me raided! :whip:

Anyway the fact that i 'used' to have a interest in the chemistry behind fireworks has shit all to do with you and i dont see what it has to do with a RTC and the costs of housing them? 

And i do care for captive animals that i keep but unlike some people i have a sense of reality ! like mmm i wonder what sort of tanks virtually all of the RTCs that are imported are going to :lol2:


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## INJAF (Nov 12, 2011)

Fargle said:


> These, and indeed all "monster fish" need lots of room and to provide that room costs money, lots of money.
> 
> Just because you're providing a slightly bigger box than 95% of other people doesn't suddenly make that practice right, it just makes it every so slightly less wrong.


The Deep posted a video of their RTC, Gabriel, a while ago. You realise just how big he is when you see the diver come into the shot with some food for him! He's an amazing looking fish, I can see why RTCs have an appeal but I can't see how a stunted, deformed one squashed into a tank in someone's living room for a fraction of the life is should lead can have any appeal at all  In the spirit of a picture painting a thousand words, hopefully stuff like this will help people realise what these fish, and so many others like them, really need 

TheDeepHull - YouTube


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## INJAF (Nov 12, 2011)

Just when you thought I'd finished, lol  Just seen this posted on the PFK Facebook page today, it's about 'The House that Jack Built' aka the UK's biggest private freshwater tank. The owner is having to close it down …

Quote from the article:



> Understandably, Jack is distraught at this latest development. He tells PFK: "Although I went to no end of trouble to ensure my tankbusters were properly housed, something else has come up to spoil things. It turns out that over the past few years, my electricity supplier has been either reading my meter incorrectly or billing me incorrectly.
> 
> I am now involved in a huge dispute with them about all of the mistakes that have been made. *However, the trouble is, it turns out that my electricity bill will be around the £6000 mark a year.*
> 
> ...


A sad situation for all concerned, but it does show just how much only one of the costs associated with running a large set up genuinely is. He does say he has other tanks but it's probably safe to assume that the tankbusters' set up takes the lion's share of the running costs. Full article here:
UK’s biggest private freshwater tank is closing down


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## Nicquita (Mar 14, 2009)

This article is already posted earlier in the thread ^_^

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure Berry will pipe up with how that tank is way too big and the fish could, really, live in a paddling pool forever and ever and always


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## INJAF (Nov 12, 2011)

Doh! So it is, missed that when I read through before, oops (that's a very little link, us old 'uns with glasses …  ). Still, no harm in repeating it I guess


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## Fargle (Aug 8, 2013)

I did copy and paste the whole link and for some reason the blue underlined hyperlink only came up with "UK" so I can see how you missed it.


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## Nicquita (Mar 14, 2009)

INJAF said:


> Doh! So it is, missed that when I read through before, oops (that's a very little link, us old 'uns with glasses …  ). Still, no harm in repeating it I guess


Sorry, I wasn't catching you out, just meant that Berry1 has already discounted it. What with them not needing aquarium grade tanks ~_~


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## INJAF (Nov 12, 2011)

Fargle said:


> I did copy and paste the whole link and for some reason the blue underlined hyperlink only came up with "UK" so I can see how you missed it.





Nicquita said:


> Sorry, I wasn't catching you out, just meant that Berry1 has already discounted it. What with them not needing aquarium grade tanks ~_~


No worries, great minds huh  I tend to think of this sort of stuff as a 'public service announcement', lol; you might encourage at least some to re-think what they thought, so good can still come of it


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Fargle said:


> As for eating them then it entirely depends on species. As far as I'm aware most catfish are very boney with not particularly good flesh. Even pangasius is farmed and sold off incredibly cheap. If someone WAS willing to eat it I can't see any physical or legal barriers, but this would also apply to eating the family dog!


 It all depends on the individual species. I was in the Everglades over Christmas and on my fishing trips I caught hardhead and gaftop sail catfish. I asked the locals if they were edible as the former are venomous, and a nightmare to anglers trying to catch game fish as they are too damned easy to catch!

Some people looked down their noses and said "no" they taste vile. Other said that they make good eating. I tried both, and while neither were great, they both tasted ok.

Pangasius is sold in all the big UK supermarkets now. It's just marketed as 'river cobbler' as the word 'catfish' puts a lot of people off trying it. 

Other species of freshwater catfish are also eaten in the US.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Quite aside from the entertaining fighting (!), this thread gave me an incredible sense of deja vu- I remember the furore during the 80s/90s when the whole RTC thing came to a head- oodles of people suddenly realised they didn't have the space, resources or cash to maintain the 'cute' fish they picked up with no real forethought. Rehoming spaces ran out in no time. I certainly can't be bothered to work out the overall cost, but I'm willing to accept that Mynkies figures, taken from source, are accurate. The thing that alarms me though, is berry1's attitude of 'well, I know what I can provide isn't big enough, but it's bigger then most people do, so that's alright.' No, it's not. The key here is surely to persuade retailers and wholesalers not to stock the species in the first place.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Mynki said:


> Other species of freshwater catfish are also eaten in the US.


black bullhead & channel cat spring to mind there- they're particularly popular in the deep south, mississippi & louisiana for example.



Ron Magpie said:


> Quite aside from the entertaining fighting (!), this thread gave me an incredible sense of deja vu- I remember the furore during the 80s/90s when the whole RTC thing came to a head- oodles of people suddenly realised they didn't have the space, resources or cash to maintain the 'cute' fish they picked up with no real forethought. Rehoming spaces ran out in no time. I certainly can't be bothered to work out the overall cost, but I'm willing to accept that Mynkies figures, taken from source, are accurate. The thing that alarms me though, is berry1's attitude of 'well, I know what I can provide isn't big enough, but it's bigger then most people do, so that's alright.' No, it's not. The key here is surely to persuade retailers and wholesalers not to stock the species in the first place.


my LFS sometimes gets individual juvi RTCs, tiger shovelnose, & RTC/TS hybrids. but they're not for general sale- they're only for sale to keepers the shop owner knows, who have large enough tanks.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

wilkinss77 said:


> black bullhead & channel cat spring to mind there- they're particularly popular in the deep south, mississippi & louisiana for example.
> 
> my LFS sometimes gets individual juvi RTCs, tiger shovelnose, & RTC/TS hybrids. but they're not for general sale- they're only for sale to keepers the shop owner knows, who have large enough tanks.


 It's the blue and related channel cats that are eaten mostly. They're commercially farmed. When the Vietnamese started exporting Pangasius the US government banned importers calling it 'catfish' so over there it's labelled as Basa. 

After an Arapaima gigas The RTC X TSN hybrid is arguably the most unsuitable fish regularly imported for the aquatics hobby. I had one moron who used to own an LFS try and tell me they were a new species. He didn't know I use the same wholesaler as him and knew exactly where he was getting his stock from.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Mynki said:


> It's the blue and related channel cats that are eaten mostly. They're commercially farmed. When the Vietnamese started exporting Pangasius the US government banned importers calling it 'catfish' so over there it's labelled as Basa.
> 
> After an Arapaima gigas The RTC X TSN hybrid is arguably the most unsuitable fish regularly imported for the aquatics hobby. I had one moron who used to own an LFS try and tell me they were a new species. He didn't know I use the same wholesaler as him and knew exactly where he was getting his stock from.


pangasius is also sold as basa here- sainsbury's sell it packaged as such in their frozen fish section.


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