# Just to check - Nova x Mack Snow Raptor



## BeardieKeeper

just to check i have the following right,

Nova (Raptor Enigma) x Mack Snow Raptor

25% Raptor
25% Mack Snow Raptor
25% Raptor Enigma (Nova)
25% Mack Snow Raptor Enigma (Dreamsickle)

thanks,


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## forgottenEntity

Sounds right to me


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## gazz

BeardieKeeper said:


> just to check i have the following right,
> 
> Nova (Raptor Enigma) x Mack Snow Raptor
> 
> 25% Raptor
> 25% Mack Snow Raptor
> 25% Raptor Enigma (Nova)
> 25% Mack Snow Raptor Enigma (Dreamsickle)
> 
> thanks,


You'll get a bit more than that.

[1C]Talbino eclipse enigma patternless reverse striped X Talbino eclipse snow patternless reverse striped = .

Talbino eclipse normal.
Talbino eclipse jungle.
Talbino eclipse striped.
Talbino eclipse reverse striped.
Talbino eclipse patternless reverse striped-(RAPTOR).
Talbino eclipse snow.
Talbino eclipse snow jungle.
Talbino eclipse snow striped.
Talbino eclipse snow reverse striped.
Talbino eclipse snow patternless reverse striped-(Snow RAPTOR).
[1C]Talbino eclipse enigma.
[1C]Talbino eclipse enigma jungle.
[1C]Talbino eclipse enigma striped.
[1C]Talbino eclipse enigma reverse striped.
[1C]Talbino eclipse enigma patternless reverse striped-(Enigma RAPTOR).
[1C]Talbino eclipse snow enigma.
[1C]Talbino eclipse snow enigma jungle.
[1C]Talbino eclipse snow enigma striped.
[1C]Talbino eclipse snow enigma reverse striped.
[1C]Talbino eclipse snow enigma patternless reverse striped-(Snow enigma RAPTOR).
-------
[2C]Talbino eclipse enigma patternless reverse striped X Talbino eclipse snow patternless reverse striped = .

[1C]Talbino eclipse enigma.
[1C]Talbino eclipse enigma jungle.
[1C]Talbino eclipse enigma striped.
[1C]Talbino eclipse enigma reverse striped.
[1C]Talbino eclipse enigma patternless reverse striped-(Enigma RAPTOR).
[1C]Talbino eclipse snow enigma.
[1C]Talbino eclipse snow enigma jungle.
[1C]Talbino eclipse snow enigma striped.
[1C]Talbino eclipse snow enigma reverse striped.
[1C]Talbino eclipse snow enigma patternless reverse striped-(Snow enigma RAPTOR).


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## Captainmatt29

Ruddy hell that is alot more of a selection that even i was thinking about, i gotta get me some of them now lol


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## BeardieKeeper

thankyou, 

i had a feeling that there would be more than 4 outcomes, seemed to easy, lol


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## forgottenEntity

gazz said:


> Talbino eclipse reverse striped.


Just out of interest Gazz... How many RAPTOR x RAPTOR pairings have you seen that produce none-patternless reverse stripe albino off-spring?


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## gazz

forgottenEntity said:


> Just out of interest Gazz... How many RAPTOR x RAPTOR pairings have you seen that produce none-patternless reverse stripe albino off-spring?


People in genral on the net have breed RAPTOR X RAPTOR/RAPTOR X APTOR/APTOR X APTOR and got a full range of body patterns even standed banded(normal) offspring.


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## forgottenEntity

gazz said:


> People in genral on the net have breed RAPTOR X RAPTOR/RAPTOR X APTOR/APTOR X APTOR and got a full range of body patterns even standed banded(normal) offspring.


Yes, the above is possible IF and only IF the RAPTOR or APTOR is not a TRUE APTOR or RAPTOR. They are actually very hard to find. True examples have basically zero body markings at all, exhibiting a true patternless trait. I'll try and find a piccy in a bit to show what I mean.

Do you not find it strange that a RAPTOR has a light coloured dorsal stripe area, considering you say it's a "Patternless Reverse Stripe" ?

I'm sure the definition of "Reverse stripe" is the darker body pigment colour is along the dorsal stripe area, rather than the lighter colour. Ligher colour would be "Stripe", rather than "Reverse stripe" wouldn't it? I can remember the other week where you explained to someone selling an MS Stripe that it was a stripe, rather than reverse stripe, for that very reason? I just find it very strange that the rule doesn't apply to a RAPTOR or indeed an APTOR I assume?


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## gazz

forgottenEntity said:


> Do you not find it strange that a RAPTOR has a light coloured dorsal stripe area, considering you say it's a "Patternless Reverse Stripe" ?


I'm fully aware what a True Patternless reverse striped is.I'm very fuzzy about it i hate people just tagging everthing orange as a APTOR.IMO if it's not patternless reverse striped is not a APTOR/RAPTOR.

Reverse striped are dark on the dorsal.Patternless reverse striped are pale on the dorsal coz the reverse striped has been wiped out.So no i wouldn't expect a patternless reverse striped to be dark on the dorsal.Babys are dark on the dorsal it fade out as they mature.

Reverse striped.









Broken reverse striped.









Patternless reverse striped.


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## forgottenEntity

gazz said:


> Reverse striped are dark on the dorsal.Patternless reverse striped are pale on the dorsal coz the reverse striped has been wiped out.So no i wouldn't expect a patternless reverse striped to be dark on the dorsal.Babys are dark on the dorsal it fade out as they mature.


Not true....

Here's a piccy I borrowed from Steve's site as per the ones you found...

Baby RAPTOR...










So, not all baby RAPTORs are dark on the dorsal stripe at birth...



gazz said:


> I'm fully aware what a True Patternless reverse striped is.I'm very fuzzy about it i hate people just tagging everthing orange as a APTOR.IMO if it's not patternless reverse striped is not a APTOR/RAPTOR.


Not true either...

Not all RAPTORs carry the reverse stripe gene. Infact, a heck of a lot of the bloke who invented them's more recent ones definitely do not. That baby I found on Steve's site also is in that bracket from the looks of it, although it's hard to tell for sure.

If a RAPTOR has s striped tail, it's at the very least het reverse stripe (in terms of carrying the various parts of reverse stripe that work in a recessive manner). If it doesn't have a striped tail it's not carrying reverse stripe.

The first two generations of RAPTORs ever produced were reverse stripe carriers. They also carried the Tremper Patternless trait. Over those generations, selective breeding was carried out to remove the reverse stripe trait... however, most RAPTORs released to the public at generation 3 were still het for reverse stripe. So, yes - some RAPTORs out there today, do indeed carry the reverse stripe trait. HOWEVER.... it is NOT part of the correct genetic makeup of a true RAPTOR. A true RAPTOR does not carry the reverse stripe trait at all... it only carries the Patternless trait.

A TRUE RAPTOR...










A Reverse Stripe Carrier...


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## gazz

forgottenEntity said:


> So, not all baby RAPTORs are dark on the dorsal stripe at birth...


That it a Talbino as in ALBINO.On albino the role is reversed what BLACK ture usually white/paler.You can see a faded line down the back.You have to put into account that Some are BORN Patternless reverse striped where there coloring won't change much.BUT some are BORN Reverse striped where there will be a lot of change giong on if they develope into Patternless reverse striped.


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## gazz

forgottenEntity said:


> Not all RAPTORs carry the reverse stripe gene.


Yes they do Patternless orange IS Patternless reverse striped.




forgottenEntity said:


> If a RAPTOR has s striped tail, it's at the very least het reverse stripe (in terms of carrying the various parts of reverse stripe that work in a recessive manner). If it doesn't have a striped tail it's not carrying reverse stripe.


Yes they carrie the trait is a polygenic trait so does get passed og in a recessive manner but it's not Simple recessive it doesn't work in a simple recessive manner.That's why i refer to them as Poly'HET-/-Polygenic recessive.


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## gazz

forgottenEntity said:


> A TRUE RAPTOR...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Reverse Stripe Carrier...


There both the same markings are about the same area.In my book there reverse striped as both express dorsal markings.But 99% of the leo sellers would sell both of these as RAPTOR/APTOR.


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## forgottenEntity

From the bloke that developed the morph.... He probably knows what's what.



RT said:


> Alberto at A&M gecko was the person that put forth the idea that the patternless condition in my raptors was the result of striped genes meeting reverse striped genes. Some raptors have a striped tail and these are all het reverse stripe. Those that do not have a striped tail are not het reverse stripe.
> 
> Alberto put forth the term "patternless striped" or "patternless reverse striped", This is only a theory. It needs to be tested with a number of breedings. Also, those terms in themselves are misleading. If he were right one would expect to see more reverse striped raptors then patternless ones.....such is not the case. Hence the patternless gene in the raptor is dominant over the gene for being reverse striped.
> 
> 
> As for my opinion of Alberto's theory, I tend to think that is not so. I say this because my first and second generation raptors needed to be refined through selective breeding to remove the striped tail. The first raptors that people got were almost all het for reverse stripe. Selective breeding has removed the reverse striped gene more and more from the raptor morph with each generation.
> 
> So to be clear, the verdict is still out.
> 
> Ron


So, in his books it's not 1 polygenic trait "patternless reverse stripe", but 2 seperate traits.... Where the Tremper Patternless trait is completely seperate from the reverse stripe trait... which is (reverse stripe) infact not even supposed to be part of a RAPTORs _intended_ make up.

Those 2 pics I put up do show a rather noticable difference in characteristics. The second showing a tail stripe and infact also showing 2 or 3 tiny markings of a reverse stripe down the dorsal area. The first one shows neither of those.


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## gazz

forgottenEntity said:


> From the bloke that developed the morph.... He probably knows what's what.


A patternless reverse striped IS'T created by crossing a striped to a reverse striped.Patternless reverse striped is a reverse striped selective bred to clear the reverse striped.In the same way as a super hypo is just a hypo seletive bred to clear the bosy spots.

Sorry but Tremper has nothing i need to hear.Thanks for the the Talbino & eclipse & giant genes:2thumb:BUT that all he's gave us.As said patternless reverse striped was all ready out there.All his other morphs are grasping at straws. 

Diablo blanko=Talbino eclipse blizzard but he avoilds saying this is blizzard gene.He say's genetically patternless YES that would be blizzard:bash:.

Blanco=Blazing blizzard HET Eclipse.Sorry but that breach of copy right coz there blazing blizzard that are just HET Eclipse.So he has no right to change the name.

Ab's 99% of eclipse eyes have red iris vaining.And i've seen some bog standed leo eyes with red iris vaining that have no eclipse blood.

Bandit=Jungle some are striped.

Emerine=Low grade tangerines used to buy them for £30.

Super RAPTOR=Talbino eclipse super snow.Super snow hasn't as of yet expressed Patternless reverse striped.And the light example he shows are just incubated high.

And FIREFOX :blowup:SUPER HYPO TANGERINE:devil:.

And there the blue bellie i hope it proves true.But is still not as complex as he write it to be.


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## forgottenEntity

Do I gather you don't think too highly of him?



gazz said:


> Patternless reverse striped is a reverse striped selective bred to clear the reverse striped.In the same way as a super hypo is just a hypo seletive bred to clear the bosy spots.


Not quite how he sees it but, ok...



> Sorry but Tremper has nothing i need to hear.Thanks for the the Talbino & eclipse & giant genes:2thumb:BUT that all he's gave us.As said patternless reverse striped was all ready out there.All his other morphs are grasping at straws.


Hmmm, ok.



> Diablo blanco=Talbino eclipse blizzard but he avoilds saying this is blizzard gene.He say's genetically patternless YES that would be blizzard:bash:.


Actually, the "genetically patternless" bit would be the Tremper Patternless trait. RT has no problems saying they are white due to the blizzard gene....



RT said:


> The “White Devil” is the result of crossing very white Tremper Albino "Blazing" Blizzard (BB) females with our best Raptor male and breeding those double het offspring together.


Blanco is actually a BB Tremper Patternless het Eclipse....



> Blanco=Blazing blizzard HET Eclipse.Sorry but that breach of copy right coz there blazing blizzard that are just HET Eclipse.So he has no right to change the name.


erm, no copyright exists on the Blazing Blizzard name... and they aren't just het eclipse. As for naming them - well, BB Tremper Patternless het Eclipse is a rather large mouthful. Not sure there's any harm in it.



> Ab's 99% of eclipse eyes have red iris vaining.And i've seen some bog standed leo eyes with red iris vaining that have no eclipse blood.


You are aware, I am sure, that if someone were to miss-represent an item for sale in the US, they can expect to get taken to the cleaners for it in civil court. If he writes that crossing an Ab with a TAlbino produces all Ab offspring, you can bet it's smack on the truth. As such, given Ab crossed into normals produces het Ab... means that Ab is dominant in the presence of the TAlbino gene... However, it also comes out dominant in Ab x Ab without the need for a TAlbino gene at all... even in Abs produced from Normal het Abs where no TAlbino gene is present (proven by breeding out to TAlbinos afterwards with zero TAlbino offspring). Many show snake eyes on many occasions. All show that very specific tail pattern that they all show.



> Bandit=Jungle some are striped.


Not a morph I own or know anything at all about really. So can't comment.



> Emerine=Low grade tangerines used to buy them for £30.


Remember the bit about miss-representation above?

Well... he wouldn't be putting this unless he was certain of his facts. And his Emerines are Emeralds with a high degree of tangerine.



rt said:


> This green color mutation is referred to as the "Emerald" line. This morph is from a random gene mutation and not the result of a combination or line bred approach.


......



> Super RAPTOR=Talbino eclipse super snow.Super snow hasn't as of yet expressed Patternless reverse striped.And the light example he shows are just incubated high.


Supersnow TAlbino... Cooked on the high side...










Super RAPTOR...











they are noticably different in terms of markings.



> And FIREFOX :blowup:SUPER HYPO TANGERINE:devil:.


Actually they are Hypo Tangerines but line bred to produce the 2 shaded orange saddle effect. His choice if he wants to name them something specific I guess.



> And there the blue bellie i hope it proves true.But is still not as complex as he write it to be.


Ho hum. Pretty clear you don't like the guy. Not entirely sure as to the reasons but, your choice. Bearing in mind he's a very big part of why Leos are so popular world wide today... and dedicates almost all his time to animals. But again, your choice if you want to take the views you have 

Talking to him, assuming you havent, you would find he's beyond of enthusiastic on the subject of Leos - their genetics, what needs to happen next to improve a particular morph, the lot. One of the most kind and helpful people I've spoken to in terms of giving advice and help with Leos.


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## gazz

This is a talbino super snow incubated low.









This is a Talbino eclipse super snow incubated high.That's the only reason for the coloring.










This is a Eclipse super snow WITH OUT TALBINO.If it was Talbino is would be a so called Super RAPTOR.As you can clearly see the boly pattern over ranks that patternless reverse striped.









It's clear to see your traped in the middle of the flock:whistling2:.


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## forgottenEntity

Low cooked Super snow Albino....



















Compared to this one that you want to call low cooked...










Somewhat darker, I think you'll agree?

Either way, basically, what you're saying then is that you don't believe he's told the truth about what this is?....


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## forgottenEntity

and I suppose Alberto cooks his very hot aswell and that this isn't the truth either???

Super RAPTOR - Leopard Gecko Wiki



> It's clear to see your traped in the middle of the flock:whistling2:.


:roll2:

We don't appear to have a sheep emoticon... So, guess Ewe'll have to just settle for my rather Baaaaaad reply here. Hope Ewe don't feel I am Ram-ming the replies back at "Ewe". Fortunately, Ewe don't seem the type to be sheepish about things. Hope you don't feel I am trying to pull the wool over your eyes.

Being serious though... Nothing about my position on this is me trapped and I am certainly not a sheep. I form my own views on things. I take people as I find them. The person in question here has been VERY helpful and kind to both me and my other half. He's never taken more than a day to reply to an email when we've had questions and he's gone out of his way to help us out in the past. Forget the flock... I formed my own view, based on who I was talking to and all I was reading about him.

I find it really quite amusing to be labelled in such a manner by you  Somewhat ironic given my sig mentions a Leo that has absolutely no tremper characteristics what so ever... and that leo is part of a breeding plan (my biggest) which again, is absolutely tremper-influence-less. I said it earlier, I'll say it again - I've no idea why you've got such a thing against him.


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## gazz

forgottenEntity said:


> and I suppose Alberto cooks his very hot aswell and that this isn't the truth either???
> 
> Super RAPTOR - Leopard Gecko Wiki


I'd say so : victory:.IF a 'super RAPTOR' is surpose to be clear white PATTERNLESS.Is't it logical that the non albino form the 'Total eclipse' would also be the same.

Total eclipse(Eclipse super snow).Note the nose.This is a so called NON Talbino 'Super RAPTOR'.

















(Light)Talbino super snow.NO! eclipse blood.









This is a (Light)Talbino super snow HET Eclipse.NOT Super RAPTOR.









This IS a 'Super RAPTOR'(Talbino eclipse super snow).Note the nose.This is a Proven Talbino eclipse super snow.









Like with in the same way you won't see a visually super snow hypo.You won't see a Super snow patternless reverse striped that why you won't get a Super RAPTOR you can't shiffed super snow spots there for NOT Patternless reverse striped.Only gene as of yet that clear Super snow spots are Patternless as in the recessive strain and Blizzard.


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## forgottenEntity

gazz said:


> I'd say so : victory:.


OK, well, for the record... I pulled the info for Alberto's Super RAPTOR from the geckowiki...

Super RAPTOR - Leopard Gecko Wiki

There you'll find 2 photos of it. 1 as a baby, which, looks like no red-eyed supersnow albino I've ever seen due to the graduating patternless body, going down the length of the body.... Very much in the same way a RAPTOR's graduation does but obviously a very different colour, due to the supersnow's influence.










And then older... as the whiteness gets stronger...












> IF a 'super RAPTOR' is surpose to be clear white PATTERNLESS.Is't it logical that the non albino form the 'Total eclipse' would also be the same.


Not if they don't carry the Tremper Patternless trait, no. A Total Eclipse doesn't carry that genetic trait and as such is not a "non Tremper Albino Super RAPTOR"... It's exactly what it's supposed to be - a Supersnow Eclipse.

Incidentally, the images you pulled from geckosunlimited for the total eclipse, etc... don't work on here unless you are a member on their site, due to them not being freely available to anonymous users on the net.

As for that other one being a "proven" Tremper Albino Eclipse Supersnow... OK, not proven as a Super RAPTOR then? Meaning it would have to be carrying the Tremper Patternless trait such that they could have proven it out by puting it to a RAPTOR and getting TRUE Snow RAPTOR offspring.

I don't understand why you have to argue that Alberto's isn't a Super RAPTOR... along with RT's 1 year old from the photo I put up yesterday. But that's your choice I guess.

I've run a photo enhance across RT's 1 year old...










Erm, where's the patterning down the body? There's a HINT of a pattern around the head area... thereafter, gone. That's rather in keeping with most of the RAPTORs of this world, I believe.

As said though - your choice to disagree I guess. Just hope nobody you've made out to be lying, minds you being quite so defamatory about them on a public forum.

As for you and I, think we just have to agree to disagree on this one... along with Abyssinians, "Patternless Reverse Stripe", etc.


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## gazz

And all i did was get dull the overexposure.And bingo there be patterning.


















Told ya already super snow won't do patternless reverse striped so no Super RAPTOR: victory:.

And if your pulling quotes.Sasobek is a well repected big time USA breeder.He owns and bred the first proven 'Super RAPTOR'(Talbino eclipse super snow).



> Alot of people think that the Super raptor would stay all white with the red eyes. This is not true the Super raptor can show the dots like a super snow. some times it dose take the dots along time to show up. like most trempers if they are incubated at a high temp and kept hot, they will take along time to show the pattern that is what i call the "cold white" or lack of white. it is basicaly the area on a gecko where the black pigment should be. and on tremper albinos this area can stay "white" or lighter colored intill the gecko is cooled or stressed in some way (breeding is a big one).


Super Raptor and Total eclipse - Geckos Unlimited


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## forgottenEntity

gazz said:


> Told ya already super snow won't do patternless reverse striped so no Super RAPTOR: victory:.
> 
> And if your pulling quotes.Sasobek is a well repected big time USA breeder.He owns and bred the first proven 'Super RAPTOR'(Talbino eclipse super snow).


Let me see if I understand this....

You're perfectly happy to call a RAPTOR that is showing the reverse stripe trait, a RAPTOR... despite it having the incorrect phenotype (I can't be bothered going back 3 pages worth of posts to quote you, along with the pictures)... but if a Super RAPTOR shows a single mark, it's not a Super RAPTOR in your books, due to it having the incorrect phenotype? 

You'll quote a reputable US breeder who's produced and proven a Super RAPTOR out as saying it *can* (note the "can", rather than "Always does") show patterning.... but when presented earlier with 2 other individual's Super RAPTOR offerings, neither of those could possibly be Super RAPTORs? 

Next thing you'll be telling me is that a DB that shows any level of lemon can't possibly be a DB, given they are "supposed" to be pure white.  Or that a Mack Snow isn't a Mack snow if it's showing yellow... because "snow" isn't yellow.... (ok, it can be!!... :lol2... or you'll dive onto an advert for a Mack Albino that has snake eyes... and state that it most likely wasnt going to be carrying the Eclipse gene in **** form.. it had to be the magical mystery "false eclipse" from the Blizzard lines. :whistling2: I'll be chuckling in a year or so when the girl who now has that Mack Albino Eclipse.... oops, sorry, "false eclipse", proves out the Eclipse trait from him. The leo in question came from a rather well known UK breeder, who bred him from a group of Mack Albinos that were brought across from Steve in the US... as part of his Snow RAPTOR work - carrying the various hets that go to making a RAPTOR. 

See, you are extremely helpful to the vast majority of users when you write out those huge posts of possible genetic outcomes, which is really kind of you. It's great that someone can be so devoted to the subject that they are willing to help out others so much.

However, just for once, rather than sitting back and watching you "no that's wrong" or "no, it can't be that, it's this" someones' thread... I thought I'd actually bother to argue the case with you on a couple or things. You're definition of a RAPTOR is WRONG. Simple as that. What you are describing as a RAPTOR, is NOT Patternless, by virtue of it having that reverse stripe trait in it's tail or worse still on it's torso in some cases.

With this Snow RAPTOR debate, you seem to want to refer to phenotypes rather than genotypes... Yet I am certain if I was to post an advert for a Supersnow, which had come from 2 Mack Ghost parents, you would go the other way - preferring genotype to phenotype, and dive onto the thread and tell me off for having miss-described the Leo, given it would also be carrying the hypo trait in **** form.

Anyway, it's been fun :2thumb: :2thumb:


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## gazz

forgottenEntity said:


> Let me see if I understand this....
> 
> You're perfectly happy to call a RAPTOR that is showing the reverse stripe trait, a RAPTOR...


Your just not getting it:bash:.No if a RAPTOR was expressing traits of reverse striped i won't call it a RAPTOR.Same as if a super hypo had a spot i would only call it a hypo.




forgottenEntity said:


> You'll quote a reputable US breeder who's produced and proven a Super RAPTOR out as saying it *can* (note the "can", rather than "Always does") show patterning.... but when presented earlier with 2 other individual's Super RAPTOR offerings, neither of those could possibly be Super RAPTORs?


It's you who keep moving the post's.

First you say. Erm, where's the patterning down the body? There's a HINT of a pattern around the head area... thereafter, gone. 

Then i show you a dulled down picture of them expressing patterning.
















Then your in agreement there expressing patterning.So there not patternless reverse striped are they.So not Super RAPTOR as in the P being PATTERNLESS.




forgottenEntity said:


> Next thing you'll be telling me is that a DB that shows any level of lemon can't possibly be a DB, given they are "supposed" to be pure white.


Well no not really there Talbino eclipse blizzards or Ruby eyed blazing blizzard.I hate name Diablo blanco.Ablizzard a blizzard whether it be White/Yellow/Dark grey.



forgottenEntity said:


> Or that a Mack Snow isn't a Mack snow if it's showing yellow... because "snow" isn't yellow.... (ok, it can be!!...


No a Mack snow is a visual HET Take on traits from both **** state parents example Normal and super snow.Mack snow a blend of both but a primery morph.



forgottenEntity said:


> :lol2... or you'll dive onto an advert for a Mack Albino that has snake eyes... and state that it most likely wasnt going to be carrying the Eclipse gene in **** form.. it had to be the magical mystery "false eclipse" from the Blizzard lines. :whistling2: I'll be chuckling in a year or so when the girl who now has that Mack Albino Eclipse.... oops, sorry, "false eclipse", proves out the Eclipse trait from him. The leo in question came from a rather well known UK breeder, who bred him from a group of Mack Albinos that were brought across from Steve in the US... as part of his Snow RAPTOR work - carrying the various hets that go to making a RAPTOR.


You was asking proven price tag and you didn't even know what strain of eclipse is was you self.False eclipse is't from Blizzard it's just found in blizzard and snows more often than other morph.And is not a genetically reliable trait. 




forgottenEntity said:


> You're definition of a RAPTOR is WRONG. Simple as that. What you are describing as a RAPTOR, is NOT Patternless, by virtue of it having that reverse stripe trait in it's tail or worse still on it's torso in some cases.


You've proved nothing.You just keep regurtitating info you've got from (RT).And are trying to argue somthing you clearly don't understand. 

With this Snow RAPTOR debate, you seem to want to refer to phenotypes rather than genotypes... Yet I am certain if I was to post an advert for a Supersnow, which had come from 2 Mack Ghost parents, you would go the other way - preferring genotype to phenotype, and dive onto the thread and tell me off for having miss-described the Leo, given it would also be carrying the hypo trait in **** form.

Anyway, it's been fun :2thumb: :2thumb:[/quote]

Point is Patternless reverse striped is polygeneic trait so you can't see whather a super snow is expressing Patternless reverse striped,Jungle,Striped under the spoted body.A mack snow hypo is differant being hypo.

[2C]Hypo snow X [2C]Hypo snow = .

[2C]Hypo.
[2C]Hypo snow.
[2C]Hypo super snow.

Now though the Hypo super snow looks super snow based on the offspring you get you know it's Hypo super snow.Same CAN'T be said for the 'Super RAPTOR' other than the eye as in Talbino and the Eclipse genes.Now you can't see the Eclipse coz the super snow solid eye in dominant over it but it recessive so it can be proved it's there.If you look in my posted you see this argument is floored coz i refer to a 'Super RAPTOR' as a Talbino ECLIPSE super snow all these trait can be proved that when you can state they are there. 

BOARD NOW!:zzz: Go and ask (RT) for an info.I mean he has a web site and lots of money.So he could never be wrong.Though they may not say i do not stand alone on my opinion of you know who.


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## forgottenEntity

gazz said:


> Your just not getting it:bash:.No if a RAPTOR was expressing traits of reverse striped i won't call it a RAPTOR.Same as if a super hypo had a spot i would only call it a hypo.


I was tempted to do a you lovely piccy with labels on it to try and show you the difference between a RAPTOR and a RAPTOR carrying reverse stripe, masked by the patternless genetics. I just really can't be bothered though, given you'll only argue back.



> It's you who keep moving the post's.
> 
> First you say. Erm, where's the patterning down the body? There's a HINT of a pattern around the head area... thereafter, gone.
> 
> Then i show you a dulled down picture of them expressing patterning.
> 
> Then your in agreement there expressing patterning.So there not patternless reverse striped are they.So not Super RAPTOR as in the P being PATTERNLESS.


Would you conside this to be a RAPTOR?










If so, check out markings around the head area, thereafter gone. Goalposts are concreted well in and are in no danger of moving.

Just incase you decide to tell me that's not a RAPTOR... here's another from a different source...













> Well no not really there Talbino eclipse blizzards or Ruby eyed blazing blizzard.I hate name Diablo blanco.Ablizzard a blizzard whether it be White/Yellow/Dark grey.


Thought you would 



> No a Mack snow is a visual HET Take on traits from both **** state parents example Normal and super snow.Mack snow a blend of both but a primery morph.


Am almost shocked, considering you're so fussy about morph names.



> You was asking proven price tag and you didn't even know what strain of eclipse is was you self.False eclipse is't from Blizzard it's just found in blizzard and snows more often than other morph.And is not a genetically reliable trait.


I asked based on what I knew his parentage to be, as already disclosed. "False Eclipse" isn't actually a widely used name for a trait yet, I believe... although by all means correct me. However, the trait you are referring to is prevelant in geckos that are decended from Blizzard lines, or so I am led to believe.



> You've proved nothing.You just keep regurtitating info you've got from (RT).And are trying to argue somthing you clearly don't understand.


More a case of you disagreeing with an opinion formed by someone who's bred more of the things than any other individual on this planet and who you seem to have a personal dislike for. (ref: earlier posts you've made this and other threads). As for me not understanding - erm, if it makes you feel better to think that I don't have a clear understanding of the genetics that go to make up a RAPTOR or Super RAPTOR or indeed any other morph, then you think that : victory:.



> Point is Patternless reverse striped is polygeneic trait so you can't see whather a super snow is expressing Patternless reverse striped,Jungle,Striped under the spoted body


See piccies above.



> Now though the Hypo super snow looks super snow based on the offspring you get you know it's Hypo super snow.Same CAN'T be said for the 'Super RAPTOR' other than the eye as in Talbino and the Eclipse genes.Now you can't see the Eclipse coz the super snow solid eye in dominant over it but it recessive so it can be proved it's there.If you look in my posted you see this argument is floored coz i refer to a 'Super RAPTOR' as a Talbino ECLIPSE super snow all these trait can be proved that when you can state they are there.


And you can't prove a Super RAPTOR is also carrying Tremper Patternless? 

breed one out to a RAPTOR and see what you get. If you get any Snow RAPTORs - it carried it. You could argue it was carrying it purely in a poly het form... in which case, it would not be a Super RAPTOR but a Super snow Tremper Albino Eclipse poly het Tremper Patternless.



> BOARD NOW!:zzz: Go and ask (RT) for an info.I mean he has a web site and lots of money.So he could never be wrong. Though they may not say i do not stand alone on my opinion of you know who.


This is why I said several posts ago it was best to agree to disagree. It's been good fun though 

I am not sure how how much money someone has can have any effect on how often they are wrong.... but ok.

I am not a member of the "we are not worthy" brigade and do not view him as a god.... I view him as someone who knows a LOT... who has a huge amount of breeding experience and someone who I would be a fool to not listen to and who is extremely kind and helpful. Not sure if you've ever spoken to him or not though to know that.

Anyway - wouldn't want to bore you further.


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## gazz

forgottenEntity said:


> I was tempted to do a you lovely piccy with labels on it to try and show you the difference between a RAPTOR and a RAPTOR carrying reverse stripe, masked by the patternless genetics. I just really can't be bothered though, given you'll only argue back.
> 
> Would you conside this to be a RAPTOR?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If so, check out markings around the head area, thereafter gone. Goalposts are concreted well in and are in no danger of moving.
> 
> Just incase you decide to tell me that's not a RAPTOR... here's another from a different source...


Reverse striped is't masked by a patternless trait.Reverse striped is washed out by selective breeding.

No IMO the two above are not RAPTOR's they are Talbino eclipse broken reverse strped.Basically still reverse striped.

A RAPTOR.











forgottenEntity said:


> breed one out to a RAPTOR and see what you get. If you get any Snow RAPTORs


You can prove a Talbino eclipse super snow is carring patternless reverse striped but you can't prove it's expressing patternless reverse striped.Coz it's a polygeneic trait.Outcome are unpredictable so can't be proved if you can't see it.Have you ever seen a blizzard jungle ? no coz you can't see the patterning so you can't call it a blizzard jungle it's just a blizzard coz jungle is a polygenic trait also.


This is the real deal the number one.The reason for the APTOR a patternless reverse striped the patternless reverse striped.Note NO body spots.But when the Eclipse trait was found the patterning became less important to RT is was all about the eyes.








Me personally allow spots as far as the shouders and spot as far as the pelvis as usually the one blotch most leo's have on the pelvis.like most super hypo's. 

:zzz::zzz::closed::lol2:.


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## forgottenEntity

gazz said:


> Reverse striped is't masked by a patternless trait.Reverse striped is washed out by selective breeding.
> 
> No IMO the two above are not RAPTOR's they are Talbino eclipse broken reverse strped.Basically still reverse striped.
> 
> A RAPTOR.


OK....










I zoomed in on your RAPTOR to show you what I mean...

Just incase you are unsure...










Point made.



> You can prove a Talbino eclipse super snow is carring patternless reverse striped but you can't prove it's expressing patternless reverse striped.Coz it's a polygeneic trait.Outcome are unpredictable so can't be proved if you can't see it.Have you ever seen a blizzard jungle ? no coz you can't see the patterning so you can't call it a blizzard jungle it's just a blizzard coz jungle is a polygenic trait also.


The point I was making is that a true Super RAPTOR, as per the Tremper one could well show a very faint edge line as per your RAPTOR image that I have blown up.... Therefore IS expressing Tremper Patternless.



> This is the real deal the number one.The reason for the APTOR a patternless reverse striped the patternless reverse striped.Note NO body spots.But when the Eclipse trait was found the patterning became less important to RT is was all about the eyes.


Less important in your opinion or a statement of fact as presented by him?




> :zzz::zzz::closed::lol2:.


OK  . You love me really :lol2:


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## gazz

forgottenEntity said:


> OK....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Point made.


What point spots end at the shounders like i sad the other two are orange color tone.

Flank line that the orange colored stripe NOT SPOT's are nothing to do with reverse striped they don't count.The flank line are on most leo's somtime seen on recessive patternless.It the line down the`spine that matters.

You can see the flank line on this leo.Start leval with the eye over the frount legs.Sometime full body length.


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## forgottenEntity

gazz said:


> What point spots end at the shounders like i sad the other two are orange color tone.
> 
> Flank line that the orange colored stripe NOT SPOT's are nothing to do with reverse striped they don't count.The flank line are on most leo's somtime seen on recessive patternless.It the line down the`spine that matters.


But this isn't possibly a flank line?










It's even a relatively solid line compared to the broken dots on your RAPTOR you found...










Thought you were bored of this?


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## gazz

forgottenEntity said:


> But this isn't possibly a flank line?


But there not just a flank lines on that leo.That leo is packed with patterning.All that pink you can see is spotting.If this leo was NON!Talbino all that pink would be black.And as a result it would look like any other super snow it would just express a white wash nose to tell you it was a standed super snow.




forgottenEntity said:


> Thought you were bored of this?


Your the one who keeps putting questions my way:Na_Na_Na_Na:.


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## forgottenEntity

gazz said:


> But there not just a flank lines on that leo.That leo is packed with patterning.All that pink you can see is spotting.If this leo was NON!Talbino all that pink would be black.And as a result it would look like any other super snow it would just express a white wash nose to tell you it was a standed super snow.


Packed with patterning.... I need my monitors swapping out or my eyes testing it would seem. As far as I could see, those flank stripes basically vanish half way down the body... fading out to almost white. That's not a trait of an SSA. That's very in keeping with how Tremper Patternless works on flank stripe colouration in a good number of cases. Your RAPTOR pic shows it to a certain degree.. where the orange pales out the further down the side you go on the flank edge stripes.

All that pink... And I suppose you've got several photos of pink spotted SSA's then? I thought SSA's showed their dark pigment as a degree of brown through to very pale cream, depending on incubation temps and stress levels. You even posted a few such pics on this thread earlier on in our chat.



> Your the one who keeps putting questions my way:Na_Na_Na_Na:.


Obviously you're not that bored then, given you keep on answering


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## gazz

forgottenEntity said:


> Packed with patterning.... I need my monitors swapping out or my eyes testing it would seem.


It would seem so.







:whistling2::Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:.


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## forgottenEntity

Finally found a proven Super RAPTOR....










And I shall now await Pink spotted SSA piccies


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## gazz

forgottenEntity said:


> And I shall now await Pink spotted SSA piccies


And they have NO! RAPTOR-(Eclipse) blood.

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images/tralbss07_4.jpg
http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images/tralbss07_6.jpg
http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images/tralbss07_9.jpg
http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images/tralbss07_10.jpg


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## forgottenEntity

http://www.milliondollargeckos.co.uk/images/CorrectExposure1.jpg
http://www.milliondollargeckos.co.uk/images/CorrectExposure2.jpg
http://www.milliondollargeckos.co.uk/images/CorrectExposure3.jpg

And magically, if you reduce the flash glare and the fact that they are massively over exposed....

Thought you were bored.


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