# slow worms



## andym

Hi could anybody tell me if it is possible to buy captive bred slow worms in the uk 

cheers Andy


----------



## daftlassieEmma

you can if you can track down a breeder with a liscence

alternately you could try catching a couple

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizard-care/316264-slow-worm-care-sheet.html

PM me if you need any further info


----------



## snowgoose

I sure its possible but will be very very hard to find someone breeding them and selling.


----------



## SWMorelia

daftlassieEmma said:


> you can if you can track down a breeder with a liscence
> 
> alternately you could try catching a couple
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizard-care/316264-slow-worm-care-sheet.html
> 
> PM me if you need any further info


I don't sell them.... But you can rent time on my land looking for some to take home with you....:whistling2:
sppppt... they are under the tin sheets.... LOL


----------



## andym

I live in Marske ,Cleveland and havent seen one in the wild for about twenty years does anybody know of anywhere local to me where i could see them and possibly photograph them (north east england)
I went for a walk on the north york moors today and saw 4 common lizards to quick for a photo though!


----------



## erewegoagain

I had a few in the garden last year but havent seen any this year so far. So probably no point in bringing your camera down here (Surrey) Also my cat found a very feisty grass snake it didnt know what to do with the year before that. I must say personally im for leaving them where they are


----------



## andym

thanks for the replies what I would realy like to do is to try and introduce some slow worms to my garden and provide plenty of log piles and rocks and a compost heap


----------



## C4VEMAN-5AM

Compost heaps are excellent for slow worms, just dont keep digging it up or disturbing them and they shouldnt leave.

And if you cant find any to introduce then just wait and they should come to you, but you probably wont see much of them unfortunately.


----------



## erewegoagain

Actually you might find if you join a local reptile conservation group you are able to get some to establish a new population


----------



## Grond

andym said:


> thanks for the replies what I would realy like to do is to try and introduce some slow worms to my garden and provide plenty of log piles and rocks and a compost heap


I'd be careful what you do with regards to taking from the wild or reintroducing, they are a protected species, and you could find yourself in trouble unless you get permission first. I quote:

'The slow worm is protected under Schedule 5 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act (1981). Under this act, it is illegal to kill, injure, and sell this species'


----------



## andym

I should think it would be ok as I am not planning on killing ,injuring or selling slow worms


----------



## Grond

andym said:


> I should think it would be ok as I am not planning on killing ,injuring or selling slow worms


Yes, but moving/relocating any amphibians/reptiles which are protected is also illegal, and reintroduction/release of animals into the wild is also illegal unless you have special permission. I quote again:

'legislation does not prohibit capturing and keeping these animals but it makes re-releasing them an offence.'

and

'This section prohibits sale, barter, exchange, transporting for sale and advertising to sell or to buy. Collection and keeping of these widespread amphibian species is not an offence.'

This means that buying them off someone without a license from DEFRA is illegal. It also means that releasing captive bred animals is illegal. And you can't catch them in the wild and re-release them as this too is illegal.


----------



## andym

The way I read the legislation it seems it is satating the offence is to re/release non native alien species and what I was wanting to do would indeed be legal!????


----------



## Dynamos Dragons

The way i read it was ,

Yes you can capture and keep them, however you cannot sell, re-release, injure or sell them or any offspring.

You can buy them off someone without a DEFRA license if they are captive breed, but if they are wild caught the seller must have a DEFRA license .


----------



## andym

Surely the law wouldnt stop you from releasing a slow worm?
and I think you can sell 3rd gen cb slow worms if you can prove them to be 3rd gen cb. defginately cant kill injure or sell wc slow worms.


----------



## Grond

andym said:


> Surely the law wouldnt stop you from releasing a slow worm?
> and I think you can sell 3rd gen cb slow worms if you can prove them to be 3rd gen cb. defginately cant kill injure or sell wc slow worms.


The law clearly states, that whilst you can capture a slow worm and keep it as a pet, you cannot then re-release it into the wild.


----------



## daftlassieEmma

andym said:


> Surely the law wouldnt stop you from releasing a slow worm?
> and I think you can sell 3rd gen cb slow worms if you can prove them to be 3rd gen cb. defginately cant kill injure or sell wc slow worms.


 if they already live near you then no, i imagine it would be okay

e.g. if one of your neighbours had them and you took a few and let them go in your garden then that would be fine

however; i wouldn't be allowed to nip down to England, collect some and release them in my garden

you're right about the 3rd gen cb slowies being sold but as stated you must be able to prove this and obtain a liscence 

: victory:


----------



## shanekent

Grond said:


> The law clearly states, that whilst you can capture a slow worm and keep it as a pet, you cannot then re-release it into the wild.


Sorry, but as far as I am aware that is rubbish, this only applies to non native species, where is this piece of "law you are referring to?


----------



## Grond

shanekent said:


> Sorry, but as far as I am aware that is rubbish, this only applies to non native species, where is this piece of "law you are referring to?


'The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 only applies to 'wild animals': these are defined as those that are living wild or were living wild before being captured or killed. It does not apply to captive-bred animals being held in captivity. However, animals in gardens (e.g. newts in garden ponds) and captive-bred animals that have been released to the wild are likely to be included in this definition. The legislation does not prohibit capturing and keeping these animals but it makes re-releasing them an offence.'


----------



## snowgoose

This topic seems to be getting very blurry with regards to what can and can't be done regarding slow-worms. I have written about the laws surrounding them and it has been posted on here. I haven't looked into the release of CB slow-worms as I didn't think it would come up. But it has so I will let everyone know the correct laws regarding this asap.


----------



## daftlassieEmma

Grond said:


> 'The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 only applies to 'wild animals': these are defined as those that are living wild or were living wild before being captured or killed. It does not apply to captive-bred animals being held in captivity. However, animals in gardens (e.g. newts in garden ponds) and captive-bred animals that have been released to the wild are likely to be included in this definition. The legislation does not prohibit capturing and keeping these animals but it makes re-releasing them an offence.'


if you take an animal from the wild you can re-release it, (i know people who catch slowies, breed them then release the young and parents) however i believe that animals bought from someone (who holds a liscence of course) would be classed as pets and therefore not be permitted to being released


----------



## C4VEMAN-5AM

daftlassieEmma said:


> if you take an animal from the wild you can re-release it, (i know people who catch slowies, breed them then release the young and parents) however i believe that animals bought from someone (who holds a liscence of course) would be classed as pets and therefore not be permitted to being released


 Wow I can see how that could actually help know breeding then releasing all, as long as extreme care is taken not to stress or hurt the slowies, then everythings cool, and its better to breed and release than keep as pets in my opinion.


----------



## shanekent

Grond said:


> 'The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 only applies to 'wild animals': these are defined as those that are living wild or were living wild before being captured or killed. It does not apply to captive-bred animals being held in captivity. However, animals in gardens (e.g. newts in garden ponds) and captive-bred animals that have been released to the wild are likely to be included in this definition. The legislation does not prohibit capturing and keeping these animals but it makes re-releasing them an offence.'


Right, lets clarify something here, are you talking about wild slow worms or CB ones?? If you catch a wild slow worm and then release it back into the wild there is no offence being committed. as per CB ones I am not aware of the legalities surrounding their release.


----------



## Stevie_c17

It is illegal to buy, sell, trade or barter with any of the native species, given the lack of knowledge of this species in respect to numbers i would strongly advise against removing them from the wild. Keeping and breeding in captivity would prob not be that hard however you would have to keep them outdoors as they would not do well in heat! Best left out in the wild if you ask me!


----------



## ex0tics

Stevie_c17 said:


> Best left out in the wild if you ask me!


Exactly.


----------



## eeji

Grond said:


> 'The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 only applies to 'wild animals': these are defined as those that are living wild or were living wild before being captured or killed. It does not apply to captive-bred animals being held in captivity. However, animals in gardens (e.g. newts in garden ponds) and captive-bred animals that have been released to the wild are likely to be included in this definition. The legislation does not prohibit capturing and keeping these animals but it makes re-releasing them an offence.'


is there a link for this info?


----------



## Alex

Im on the lookout for some Slow worms if anyone finds a breeder that breeds CB Slow worms contact me please?


----------



## cornman247

what does the law say about "escapings":mf_dribble:


----------



## Alex

cornman247 said:


> what does the law say about "escapings":mf_dribble:


Nothing as far as i am aware.


----------



## Alex

I think after reading the wildlife and countryside act

A Slow worm CAN be released back to where it was caught
You cant catch a slow worm and transport it to your garden (Unless Captive Bred)
You ARE allowed to catch wild slowworms and keep them
If the slowworm you caught was a female and pregnant, the offspring would be classed wild bred. So cannot be sold.
If you breed slowworms IN CAPTIVITY from wild caught slow worms, you can sell these with a DEFRA certificate.
Hope this helps


----------



## Matt Harris

Grond said:


> The law clearly states, that whilst you can capture a slow worm and keep it as a pet, you cannot then re-release it into the wild.


Sorry, that's complete garbage. No law against re-releasing them; they are only protected against trade and intentional killing/injury.

However, if you had some as a long-term captive in a collection of many other reptiles, it may not be wise to re-release them for fear of releasing exotic pathogens to the wild.

It's always best to allow these things to colonise your garden naturally; if they don't turn up within a few years, it probably means the habitat isn't suitable, so there's no point in introducing them.


----------



## Natrix

Matt Harris said:


> Sorry, that's complete garbage. No law against re-releasing them; they are only protected against trade and intentional killing/injury.
> 
> However, if you had some as a long-term captive in a collection of many other reptiles, it may not be wise to re-release them for fear of releasing exotic pathogens to the wild.
> 
> It's always best to allow these things to colonise your garden naturally; if they don't turn up within a few years, it probably means the habitat isn't suitable, so there's no point in introducing them.


Matt is totally correct :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy: 

With regard the comments in the act about not being able to re release, this refers to non native species. For example; if I catch a terrapin in the local river I'm not breaking any laws but if I let it go again I am.
With regards to selling native herps, you can not sell anything derived from a wild caught animal including its offspring which are clased as captive reared. This means you need to breed from the captive reared babies before you have captive breds that you can legally sell. It is possible to get a licence from DEFRA allowing you to sell WC but obtaining rocking horse poo is easier.
As a keeper of Grass snakes and some one that gets called upon from time to time to remove natives from peoples gardens I have read the Wildlife and Countryside act a good few times.

Natrix


----------



## daftlassieEmma

Xenon said:


> Im on the lookout for some Slow worms if anyone finds a breeder that breeds CB Slow worms contact me please?


there's a guy on here who knows someone that sells CB slowies, i'll ask him and get back to you 



Xenon said:


> You cant catch a slow worm and transport it to your garden (Unless Captive Bred)
> You ARE allowed to catch wild slowworms and keep them
> If the slowworm you caught was a female and pregnant, the offspring would be classed wild bred. So cannot be sold.
> *If you breed slowworms IN CAPTIVITY from wild caught slow worms, you can sell these with a DEFRA certificate*.
> Hope this helps


 
they have to be 3rd gen CB : victory:


----------



## Alex

So bred 3 times in captivity before they can be sold?


----------



## Natrix

Xenon said:


> So bred 3 times in captivity before they can be sold?


No mate, yet more incorrect information.

This is from the Wildlife and Countryside act.

_(5) Subject to the provision of this part, if any person-_

_(a) sells, offers or exposes for sale, or has in his possession or transports for the purpose of sale, any live or dead wild animal included in schedule 5, *or any part of or anything derived from*, such an animal ; or_
_(b) publishes or causes to be published any advertisement likely to be understood as conveying that he buys or sells, or intends to buy or sell, any of those things, _
_he shall be guilty of an offence._

_(6) In any proceedings for an offence under subsection (1), (2) or (5)(a), the animal in question shall be presumed to have been a wild animal unless contrary is shown._

The important bit is in red, basically you can collect a slow worm from the wild for your own use. This slow worm would then be classed as *wild caught. *You can then breed from the wild caught slow worm but any babies produced would be considered by DEFRA as being derived from a wild caught animal. These are called *captive reared animals* and it is illegal to sell them.
Once you have grown on your captive reared animals you can breed from them and as they are not wild caught animals the legislation above no longer applies. Any babies produced will be considered *captive bred* and totally legal to sell. If at any time you add a wild caught animal back into the breeding programme you must remember that any babies produced will be back to captive reared and illegal to sell again.

The big problem is proving that you captive bred babies really are captive bred. I would suggest getting lots of breeding pictures as you go along and making sure that other people are fully aware of what you are doing so they can back you up if you find yourself being questioned.

Natrix


----------



## mick g

How do you collect enough slugs ect to feed a population of captive slow worms? Do you hibernate, How? If not how do you feed in winter. will they eat commercial food crickets, wax worms, meal worms ect.

Surely regardless of what the legislation says, it cant be a bad idea to breed them for the purpose of re release and help our declining uk population.

My personal opinion is that if every forum member took a slow worm from the wild it would still not equal the amount killed by our cats every year. I am sure biggest reason for decline is destruction of habitat.

Maybe collect a couple from wild then kill a couple of your neighbours cats to make up for it :devil:


----------



## Natrix

mick g said:


> How do you collect enough slugs ect to feed a population of captive slow worms? Do you hibernate, How? If not how do you feed in winter. will they eat commercial food crickets, wax worms, meal worms ect.
> 
> Surely regardless of what the legislation says, it cant be a bad idea to breed them for the purpose of re release and help our declining uk population.
> 
> My personal opinion is that if every forum member took a slow worm from the wild it would still not equal the amount killed by our cats every year. I am sure biggest reason for decline is destruction of habitat.
> 
> Maybe collect a couple from wild then kill a couple of your neighbours cats to make up for it :devil:


From the slug point of view, you have to get good at finding them. It's been years since I kept slow worms but I used to put roof tiles and upturned clay flower pots around the garden. The slugs loved to hide under them making slug hunts easier. And just for the record, they only eat white slugs so most of what you find are useless as Slow worm food.

Winter time = hibernation (easy option) or store up lots of slugs in the autumn. Some of my Slow worms also took worms and a few took cat food and dead crickets.

Not sure we have got a declining population to be honest. Like most of our native herps slow worms are either non existent in an area or very common. It's got more to do with looking for them in suitable habitats, also a lot of people have them in their garden but just don't realise it.

Agree with you about a few taken by hobbyists making no difference to the wild population. Everyday wild Slow worms get killed by cats, hedgehogs, badgers, lawn mowers, shovels, cars.........

I actually think if they had an easier diet they would be more popular. I've seen them with background colours ranging from pale silver, through gold, onto brown and even black. Given that a lot then also have spots that can be white, blue, red and yellow and you have a morph makers dream animal. 

It's just a pain finding all those slugs:lol2:

Natrix


----------



## andym

well I have had a good tramp around the local woods and meadows lifted up hundreds of logs stones and piles of grass and found........... 1 toad!!!!

I'm really starting to think they are very rare in the north east.


----------



## snowgoose

Natrix said:


> No mate, yet more incorrect information.
> 
> This is from the Wildlife and Countryside act.
> 
> _(5) Subject to the provision of this part, if any person-_
> 
> _(a) sells, offers or exposes for sale, or has in his possession or transports for the purpose of sale, any live or dead wild animal included in schedule 5, *or any part of or anything derived from*, such an animal ; or_
> _(b) publishes or causes to be published any advertisement likely to be understood as conveying that he buys or sells, or intends to buy or sell, any of those things, _
> _he shall be guilty of an offence._
> 
> _(6) In any proceedings for an offence under subsection (1), (2) or (5)(a), the animal in question shall be presumed to have been a wild animal unless contrary is shown._
> 
> The important bit is in red, basically you can collect a slow worm from the wild for your own use. This slow worm would then be classed as *wild caught. *You can then breed from the wild caught slow worm but any babies produced would be considered by DEFRA as being derived from a wild caught animal. These are called *captive reared animals* and it is illegal to sell them.
> Once you have grown on your captive reared animals you can breed from them and as they are not wild caught animals the legislation above no longer applies. Any babies produced will be considered *captive bred* and totally legal to sell. If at any time you add a wild caught animal back into the breeding programme you must remember that any babies produced will be back to captive reared and illegal to sell again.
> 
> The big problem is proving that you captive bred babies really are captive bred. I would suggest getting lots of breeding pictures as you go along and making sure that other people are fully aware of what you are doing so they can back you up if you find yourself being questioned.
> 
> Natrix


Any animal conceived and born in a controlled environment is considered captive bred.

Whether that's from two wild caught parents or not.
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/306873-slow-worm-update.html


----------



## daftlassieEmma

Natrix said:


> _._
> 
> The important bit is in red, basically you can collect a slow worm from the wild for your own use. This slow worm would then be classed as *wild caught. *You can then breed from the wild caught slow worm but any babies produced would be considered by DEFRA as being derived from a wild caught animal. These are called *captive reared animals* and it is illegal to sell them.
> *Once you have grown on your captive reared animals you can breed from them and as they are not wild caught animals the legislation above no longer applies. A**ny babies produced will be considered captive bred and totally legal to sell*. If at any time you add a wild caught animal back into the breeding programme you must remember that any babies produced will be back to captive reared and illegal to sell again.


that's what i meant, should've made it clearer :blush:


----------



## Natrix

snowgoose said:


> Any animal conceived and born in a controlled environment is considered captive bred.
> 
> Whether that's from two wild caught parents or not.


Not according to DEFRA, it doesn't matter how long the original wild Caught animals have been in captivity any babies they produce will be captive reared and derived from wild caught parents. It is only captive bred babies produced from captive reared animals that can be legally sold without a licence.

Natrix


----------



## snowgoose

Natrix said:


> Not according to DEFRA, it doesn't matter how long the original wild Caught animals have been in captivity any babies they produce will be captive reared and derived from wild caught parents. It is only captive bred babies produced from captive reared animals that can be legally sold without a licence.
> 
> Natrix



Hmmm, Natural England say different.


----------



## daftlassieEmma

Natrix said:


> Not according to DEFRA, it doesn't matter how long the original wild Caught animals have been in captivity any babies they produce will be captive reared and derived from wild caught parents. It is only captive bred babies produced from captive reared animals that can be legally sold without a licence.
> 
> Natrix





snowgoose said:


> Hmmm, Natural England say different.


maybe true but it's DEFRA (i believe?) who provides the liscences required to sell CB animals, so i'd imagine you would have to meet their standards if you wanted to sell slowies


----------



## Natrix

snowgoose said:


> Hmmm, Natural England say different.


Then I suggest Natural England have a good read of the Wildlife and Countryside act as written by MAFF now called DEFRA.

Natrix


----------



## jonnyclayton

hello i just found this on google, is there a cb population? i am currently on a animal care course in the northeast and these would make superb!!! studying amimals


----------

