# Pandinus dictator



## nick gilchrist (Oct 16, 2008)

Pandinus dictator .....getting some.! several...the real deal...nuff said:2thumb: Totally legal..with docs!

:whistling2: watch this space.! noo not imperator, not gambiensis..but the real thing!: victory:


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## lycanlord20 (Jul 11, 2008)

seems too good to be true, I dont think iv ever seen a live specimen in the hobby.


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## nick gilchrist (Oct 16, 2008)

lycanlord20 said:


> seems too good to be true, I dont think iv ever seen a live specimen in the hobby.


Valid Point! I understand your incredulity..however. there is a valid reason for this. which, i will now explain. I should point out..i speak from experience in all matters regarding all 1980s importing practices.and my knowledge thereof.

The fundamental reason that emperor scorpions were imported in large quantities originated way back in the early 80s at the advent of popularity in reptile keeping, as a result of a very limited number of well known reptile importers, To bring in a shipment of Royal Pythons cost a considerable amount in freight as adult Royals were not the lightest of shipments..so importers would add extra species to balance the averages of freight cost per animal..scorpions were cheap and lightweight, so by bringing in a few hundred on each shipment helped to break down those freight costs per animal and covered in fact profits would be sufficient to cover the whole shipment of much more valuable animals. To this end, the majority of emperors were shipped in from the large Python supplying ports of GHANA/TOGO/BENIN etc, They were supplied in large quantities to UK.USA and most of Europe, appearing on everyones stocklists etc. As a result pretty much 80-90% of imported scorps with very few exceptions were imperator, with the occasional siting of gambiensis . Bear in mind that at this point a scorpion was pretty much considered living ballast with the advantage of it being able to be sold later at a decent profit yet low price, requring little or no feeding prior to sale, so a low cost as well. 
Due to this mass exodus it started to become a possible issue and as a result 3 PANDINUS species were listed as threatened and were added to APP11 of CITES requring controls on export to monitor numbers. Export permits are now required from the country of origin, confirming the source and working to agreed quotas per year (currently around 1000WC for worldwide distribution) AS OPPOSED TO 10s of 1000s, these quotas are reviewed regularly.
The 3 listed species are IMPERATOR, GAMBIENSIS and DICTATOR. The latter being rarely seen, but added as a possible "lookalike" often mistaken for imperator. Many exporters tried a few names of their own like PANDINUS AFRICANUS to try to get past the quota system. As it was difficult for inspectors to spot some of the small differences between the species,
So.why.is DICTATOR so rarely seen, ? well thats easy..its not rare at all, in fact its probably the least collected of all..because it only occurs in CAMEROON and EQUATORIAL GUINEA. There is a small overlap with imperator, but not as far down as E,G. Below is a distribution map of the 3 species, as you will see..massive widespread distribution of Imperator over the whole of West Africa until you reach Cameroon.

So why then do you not see them? simple as i said when i started this..its purely a money thing..remember importers would never bring in a shipment of scorpions on their own..it was never financially viable nor was there a need to because they could bring them in with the valuable pythons from W.AFRICA..there were no pythons in Cameroon..(or at least no shippers /collectors)and at that time there were no real export links, until a few years later, and that was when the chameleons appeared..quadricornis etc..enough profit in those and no real weight..the hassle of sticking scorps on as well was pointless as they already had shedloads out of W, Africa. Nobody was bothered then about another sub species that looked identical...
Now forward to post 1995 since Pandinus were CITES listed...well now its not viable at all as the taxes paid to the exporting country for an export doc are the same cost as a much more expensive, higher return python.monitor or simlar..hence the complete absence pretty much of WC Emperors, No major loss to the importer really,they just find an alternative lightweight cheap lizard or similar. and as many cb specimens are available at lowish cost. no point. Quick sidenote this was the reason that Giant Landsnails are rarely seen now as WC adults..they weigh far too much so no profit!|)

Look at the distribution map again....now knowing this...knowing the actual range of DICTATOR..if i said i had a small number licenced and with full agreement and export permit , collected from Equatorial Guinea.bordering Cameroon for the purposes of selecting breeding groups...what do you think they might possibly be?:whistling2:

ps i should mention..if you check for scorpionidae for Cameroon 2012 on CITES appendix listings the only species listed is P. dictator. it is the only Country that this specis is mentioned in or recognised as being its sole inhabitant of the Pandinus 3


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## lycanlord20 (Jul 11, 2008)

I typed a nice long reply to you then accidentaly closed the web page -_-
Basically I wouldnt trust anybody to do the collecting for you, africa isnt exactly known to have the most trust worthy of people.
Another issue would be that I dont think dictator has been described since its original description, probably because getting anywhere near them in the wild is dangerous due to various wars etc.
And then if you get them I think the only way to spot the difference would be using belfields paper from 1956.
Then there is the problem of convincing others lol
Dont get me wrng I would love to see these in the hobby


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## lycanlord20 (Jul 11, 2008)

I know there are maybe three papers that mention the distinguishing factors but I can only ever seem to find the one


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## nick gilchrist (Oct 16, 2008)

lycanlord20 said:


> I typed a nice long reply to you then accidentaly closed the web page -_-
> Basically I wouldnt trust anybody to do the collecting for you, africa isnt exactly known to have the most trust worthy of people.
> Another issue would be that I dont think dictator has been described since its original description, probably because getting anywhere near them in the wild is dangerous due to various wars etc.
> And then if you get them I think the only way to spot the difference would be using belfields paper from 1956.
> ...


God ive done that before!!!arrrrrrrgh:censor: Yes i know what you mean, about African ethics:whistling2: I lived in Ghana for a while and even went to school in Apapa, a township near the capital Lagos. also Sierra Leone. My Father was an engineer and as a family during my young formative years, pretty much moved around the Country. The collector is in fact European and has much knowledge of the areas involved. As far as decisive variances between the species, , due to the fact that the distribution of imperator in EG is pretty much non existent, i feel that any sample scorps collected have a high likelyhood of being dictator. The rainy season starts in Cameroon within the next few weeks , so little time anyway, All being well. and with all paperwork in place, and small fortunes spent on local taxes etc let alone our own upon arrival, i would definately send some off for confirmation and definitive identification..I do know that to date no export documentation re CITES has ever before been issued by Cameroon authorities, its as i said...its not financially viable for importers on a commercial basis...but thats because they presumed that they were £10 top value Emperors, I hope to challenge that...lets just hope im right!!! in the meantime i will try to post up the 3 papers on identification. but i still believe that because nobody ever bothered to use this area as a source pre CITES is still the reason for the rarity. Remember the Crested Gecko situation, i believe this to be almost a similar scenario.: victory:


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## reptilelover3 (Mar 9, 2012)

lycanlord20 said:


> africa isnt exactly known to have the most trust worthy of people.


Hey I'm from Africa:devil:And yeah you are very much correct:lol2:


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## lycanlord20 (Jul 11, 2008)

nick gilchrist said:


> God ive done that before!!!arrrrrrrgh:censor: Yes i know what you mean, about African ethics:whistling2: I lived in Ghana for a while and even went to school in Apapa, a township near the capital Lagos. also Sierra Leone. My Father was an engineer and as a family during my young formative years, pretty much moved around the Country. The collector is in fact European and has much knowledge of the areas involved. As far as decisive variances between the species, , due to the fact that the distribution of imperator in EG is pretty much non existent, i feel that any sample scorps collected have a high likelyhood of being dictator. The rainy season starts in Cameroon within the next few weeks , so little time anyway, All being well. and with all paperwork in place, and small fortunes spent on local taxes etc let alone our own upon arrival, i would definately send some off for confirmation and definitive identification..I do know that to date no export documentation re CITES has ever before been issued by Cameroon authorities, its as i said...its not financially viable for importers on a commercial basis...but thats because they presumed that they were £10 top value Emperors, I hope to challenge that...lets just hope im right!!! in the meantime i will try to post up the 3 papers on identification. but i still believe that because nobody ever bothered to use this area as a source pre CITES is still the reason for the rarity. Remember the Crested Gecko situation, i believe this to be almost a similar scenario.: victory:


Well as I said I am very interested if you mange to get a good few in the country.



reptilelover3 said:


> Hey I'm from Africa:devil:And yeah you are very much correct:lol2:


Dont get me wrong some people are great, but the majority of officials there seem to be very bribe friendly:lol2:


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## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

Have I got this right :lol:

You are getting an import of scorpions from Cameroon hoping they are P.dictator only due to a distribution map?

This would worry me greatly and even if I was interested in purchasing, I wouldn't until they were actually taxonomically keyed out as P.dictator and not just a "fingers crossed" shipment of big black scorpions.


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## nick gilchrist (Oct 16, 2008)

snowgoose said:


> Have I got this right :lol:
> 
> You are getting an import of scorpions from Cameroon hoping they are P.dictator only due to a distribution map?
> 
> This would worry me greatly and even if I was interested in purchasing, I wouldn't until they were actually taxonomically keyed out as P.dictator and not just a "fingers crossed" shipment of big black scorpions.


No, if that were the case. i would be effectively throwing money away. i can assure you its not in any way a cheap endeavour to do this, as i mentioned local Goverment taxes on any CITES species are very high. let alone the paperwork involved, I simply use the distribution map as an example or even if you like a confirming statement of fact...put another way...does that map say that imperator are occuring...no, err any other species..no..so as i said in great detail there is an explanation for the rarity in captivity. already explained in great detail. I will not be selling any of these anyway...if i did i would most certainly have them scientifically confirmed as being Dictator as a matter of course for my own purposss, and rest easy. i certainly wont be selling them so the concept of wanting to take the risk or not doesnt apply. im the only one doing that..and it will stay that way. If i am indeed correct then they will be sexed and paired off to establish breeding groups..any offspring produced will then be offered to interested capable breeders etc..

If they all turn out to be imperator..which statistically is highly unlikely. then i will give you a pm to see if you know anyone that wants quote "BIG BLACK SCORPIONS":lol2:


PS Its probably worth mentioning that the specimens are being collected by a European friend with the assistance of 2 Cameroonian undergraduates from Youande University..so hopefully more chance of getting it right than turning up at a village and asking the kids to gather "big scorpions"


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## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

Still not quite with you on this one Nick.

You say that the map doesn't state that P.imperator are occurring ( or other species apart from P.dictator ) 

Just because they are not stated as coming from the region, doesn't mean that they aren't found there. Distribution of P.imperator may have changed somewhat since that map was produced.

No point in PM'ing me if they turn out to be P.imperator. The costs would be higher to me than I was selling WC adults for last year so no real point. 

I'm not trying to put a downer on anything but sadly you won't truly know what they are until you have them yourself. If I was planning something like this with this amount of money just for the whole exporting side of things, I'd actually go and visit the collector and tell him face to face what I wanted and have a look at potential scorpions myself before even thinking about setting up any export documents and such 

Just my 2 cents, feel free to keep the change


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## nick gilchrist (Oct 16, 2008)

snowgoose said:


> Just my 2 cents, feel free to keep the change


:lol2::2thumb: duly noted! as per added bit on last reply, the collection side is not by the usual types employed for these tasks! Yes I agree of course there is still a risk..there always is in this situations, but sometimes if you have a hunch backed up by word on the street (so to speak) it worth a gamble. As said these are not for commercial sale..well not unless they do turn out to be imperator:blush:.. Either way....hey! its better than betting on the horses and far more interesting:2thumb:


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## nick gilchrist (Oct 16, 2008)

Latest update, as a way of confirming my belief that imperator do not occur in Cameroon. only Dictator. i decided to apply for an import document using "imperator" as the species, rather than "dictator"...I did this for 2 reasons. 1/ to confirm that imperator do not occur in the collection region and 2/ To get a written confirmation of same.

Paid the fee....and received this back...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y125/nickshock/lunapic_134477439610285_2.jpg


Exactly what I expected...A change of name is now being made on the export document (clerical error:whistling2 and the new document will state "PANDINUS DICTATOR"..Application will be resent...awaiting official clearance and the issuance of an import document.

So...if customs say they are imperator..i will simply show them a copy of the letter above.: victory:


ps I should mention. that im sure there is an occurence of imperator on borders etc..however its a bit like HEALTH AND SAFETY..its a paper trail..covering each stage so that when some jobsworth says ahhhh they aint dictator..they are imperator..i have their very own departments rulling on that.


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## Spiderstock (May 29, 2011)

To be fair what snow goose is saying is true. Distribution of each sp can change.

I think the only way you're going to be able to win this argument is by waiting until you receive the animals and take pictures and explain what makes them different from imperator.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

nick gilchrist said:


> Pandinus dictator .....getting some.! several...the real deal...nuff said:2thumb: Totally legal..with docs!
> 
> :whistling2: watch this space.! noo not imperator, not gambiensis..but the real thing!: victory:



make sure they don't try and unfairly rule over your other inverts


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

spinnin_tom said:


> make sure they don't try and unfairly rule over your other inverts


& seize overall, autocratic power- & deny the other inverts their rights & individual freedom!:gasp:


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2012)

Aren't there questions over whether P.dictator is even a true species?


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## nick gilchrist (Oct 16, 2008)

wilkinss77 said:


> & seize overall, autocratic power- & deny the other inverts their rights & individual freedom!:gasp:




:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## nick gilchrist (Oct 16, 2008)

FrozenReptile said:


> Aren't there questions over whether P.dictator is even a true species?


No its a definate true species, and as such is recognised as one of the 3 restricted pandinus on CITES App11. The distinguishing differences between imperator and dictator are only recognisable by small specifics rather than "its got red claws or its bright yellow2 etc etc:whistling2SEE BELOW) Distribution is a major factor. fundamentally being , imperator are a West African species and dictator are from Central Africa,namely Cameroon. Congo ,Equatorial Guinea. you know the "dangerous" places (certainly the latter 2). Now if you wanted a rare snake worth £££££££s you might make an effort...but a scorpion that looks much the same as one easily obtained from West Africa? no way was it worth the effort...hence the rarity. and legend of this mythical creature...whereas in fact its a bit like the crested gecko..another example of something thought to be rare...they aint rare..you just got to go get them!:whistling2: or know a nearby warlord with time on his hands and a bucket.:lol2:


PANDINUS DICTATOR has a total of 26 trichobothria on the pedipalp chela, Two of these are present on the internal surface of the chela at the base of the fixed finger;
Ventral surface surface of the tibia with 22 trichobothria.

PANDINUS IMPERATOR has more than 26 trichobothria on the pedipalp chela. Three of these are present on the internal surface of the chela at the base of the fixed finger, dispersed in a straight line and at an equal distance apart. Ventral surface of the tibia with more than 30 trichobothria


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## nick gilchrist (Oct 16, 2008)




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## Guest (Aug 15, 2012)

Interesting, which Taxonomist are you quoting there? My understanding is that the general consensus leads towards P.imperator having a few different eco types, with the "forest" ecotype being larger (up to 18cm or so) then specimens found from more savannah like areas.

Does beg the question as to why they aren't recognised so much, if they are a true species its probably down to lazy importers not bothering due to the popularity of emperor scorpions. I can't see danger involved in collecting being an issue, its extremely rare a westerner would bother collecting (certainly not emperor scorpions as well) when they can buy them really cheaply.


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## nick gilchrist (Oct 16, 2008)

FrozenReptile said:


> Interesting, which Taxonomist are you quoting there? My understanding is that the general consensus leads towards P.imperator having a few different eco types, with the "forest" ecotype being larger (up to 18cm or so) then specimens found from more savannah like areas.
> 
> Does beg the question as to why they aren't recognised so much, if they are a true species its probably down to lazy importers not bothering due to the popularity of emperor scorpions. I can't see danger involved in collecting being an issue, its extremely rare a westerner would bother collecting (certainly not emperor scorpions as well) when they can buy them really cheaply.


As i have stated previously the reason is purely money..Its not because the importers were lazy..its just that at the time there were no exporters in Cameroon when imperator were already being shipped in from W. Africa The area that Pandinus dictator occurs is NOT in West Africa,,where imperator are vastly distributed. Instead they are a Central African species, More importantly Royal Pythons were being shipped in from Togo/Benin/Ghana /Accra..they had no need to try to source from Cameroon where there are few. Scorpions were just a ballast species. low cost. low weight, high profit.

In regards this reference i give see here.

http://www.cites.org/common/docs/Res/12_11/Arachnida_Louren%C3%A7o.pdf

. if you read into literally every single scientific paper written on this species (irrespective of when it was written) As far as pretty much every single CITES executive body is concerned..original identification of imperator in the regions of Central Africa is now considered an error and they now all concur that imperator does not occur in Central Africa,

As far as the scientific experts are concerned imperator DOES NOT OCCUR IN THE WILD IN CAMEROON..So what does that leave..according to the very distribution maps they refer to for guidance etc it can only be dictator.


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