# New Brazilian Black and White - Advice Welcome



## Ayra (Mar 3, 2011)

Well I got my first invert today, a Brazilian black and white tarantula. Just want to make sure I'm doing everything right and also want some help IDing it. There appears to be at least three different species with a common name of 'Brazilian black and white' so I'm quite confused. The shop I got him from says it's of the _Nhandu_ genus but any help is appreciated.




























I have him in a faunarium type thing with about 2 square feet of floor space. I'm using orchid bark at the moment about 2/3 inches deep but plan to move him onto vermiculite in a few weeks. I'm using a network of heat cable for heating at the moment with a thermal gradient of 24 to 30 degrees C (they're the extremes and it averages about 26). He has a small water dish packed with wet paper towels, a hide in the warm end and I'll probably throw one in the cool end too. Not 100% sure on feeding but I'm gonna aim for a standard brown every 2 days, unless someone tells me otherwise.

Am I doing everything right? If not what needs to change? Any other advice is welcome too.

Finally, how potent is the venom? If I get bitten what are the effects likely to be (I'm 6'6")? I understand they're quite eager hair flickers which I'm prepared for but I know very little about the threat of a bite. Thanks for the help.


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## AilsaM (May 18, 2011)

Ayra said:


> Well I got my first invert today, a Brazilian black and white tarantula. Just want to make sure I'm doing everything right and also want some help IDing it. There appears to be at least three different species with a common name of 'Brazilian black and white' so I'm quite confused. The shop I got him from says it's of the _Nhandu_ genus but any help is appreciated.
> 
> image
> 
> ...


Looks too wet in the enclosure and I would change from the orchid bark to eco earth as soon as you can. I personally use tortoise substrate - a mixture of sterilised top soil, sand and lime grit, it is good for T's that like it dry and also good for ones that like it a little more humid, it holds moisture and shape if they decide to dig down.

If the room is warm then you don't need any additional heating, the room I keep my T's & snakes I keep the ambient room temp between 22-28*C and I don't use additional heat sources - heat mats, cable etc etc however, if the room is cold then additional heating would be needed.

You don't need the kitchen roll in the water dish & feeding wise either crickets, locust or roaches - I used to feed my sub adults/juvies dubia roaches and I fed them every 2/3 weeks, locust/crickets only need fed once a week or so, every 2 days would be over feeding.

I can't help with the species or venom, sorry.


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## Ayra (Mar 3, 2011)

AilsaM said:


> Looks too wet in the enclosure and I would change from the orchid bark to eco earth as soon as you can. I personally use tortoise substrate - a mixture of sterilised top soil, sand and lime grit, it is good for T's that like it dry and also good for ones that like it a little more humid, it holds moisture and shape if they decide to dig down.
> 
> If the room is warm then you don't need any additional heating, the room I keep my T's & snakes I keep the ambient room temp between 22-28*C and I don't use additional heat sources - heat mats, cable etc etc however, if the room is cold then additional heating would be needed.
> 
> ...


The substrate is really wet in that picture because I'd just set up the enclosure so sprayed it quite a lot, it's dried out a fair bit now. I like the idea of the soil and sand mix, I think I'll try that. The bark is only a temporary measure because I forgot to get some vermiculite in the shop, and the bark was all I had in the house. 

Additional heating is essential; I live in an old farm house so my room is getting as low 14 degrees at night even now. Is it better to feed larger prey less often, rather than frequent small prey?

I don't want to come across as rude but if you don't know the species how do you know you advice is accurate?


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

The enclosure is a little on the damp side for the species and a water bowl with just water in it rather than tissue is fine.

Its a Nhandu chromatus which get to quite a good size. It will hurt if it bites you but with very few side effects other than localized swelling and pain. Its more the hairs you have to worry about and iv known people to have really bad reactions to them. My other half came out in blisters when coming into Nhandu hair.

You will also find that they are quite skittish and fiesty and never seem to stop eating. Do not be tempted to feed more than once a week because with any animal obesity does cause problems. 

If you need to know anything else feel free to shoot me a pm


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Ayra said:


> The substrate is really wet in that picture because I'd just set up the enclosure so sprayed it quite a lot, it's dried out a fair bit now. I like the idea of the soil and sand mix, I think I'll try that. The bark is only a temporary measure because I forgot to get some vermiculite in the shop, and the bark was all I had in the house.
> 
> Additional heating is essential; I live in an old farm house so my room is getting as low 14 degrees at night even now. Is it better to feed larger prey less often, rather than frequent small prey?
> 
> I don't want to come across as rude but if you don't know the species how do you know you advice is accurate?


You can always stick a low powered heat mat on a stat on the back of the enclosure. Also only feed it prey that is the same size or smaller than its abdomen. Feeding once a week is fine


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## AilsaM (May 18, 2011)

Ayra said:


> The substrate is really wet in that picture because I'd just set up the enclosure so sprayed it quite a lot, it's dried out a fair bit now. I like the idea of the soil and sand mix, I think I'll try that. The bark is only a temporary measure because I forgot to get some vermiculite in the shop, and the bark was all I had in the house.
> 
> Additional heating is essential; I live in an old farm house so my room is getting as low 14 degrees at night even now. Is it better to feed larger prey less often, rather than frequent small prey?
> 
> I don't want to come across as rude but if you don't know the species how do you know you advice is accurate?


My advice was general observations from the picture of the enclosure you posted and also how I care for my own T's (feeding and what to feed, enclosure, substrate etc etc) of which the species I keep is varied and I did say I can't help with identifying the exact species or the potency of the T's venom. : victory:


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## **louise** (Nov 10, 2010)

I love Nhandu's but unfortunately I had severe reactions to the hairs and ended up rehoming both mine.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

**louise** said:


> I love Nhandu's but unfortunately I had severe reactions to the hairs and ended up rehoming both mine.


Apparently they have the same hair type as a T.blondi hence why so many people have severe reactions


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## boxofsorrows (Nov 7, 2011)

Nhandu hairs are vile, with me the effect isn't instant, it's usually hours later and I've been to the point I wanted to peel my own skin off. Lovely fat puffy hands and red raw because no matter how much you try not too, the itching is so intense you have too! But they're lovely looking spiders all the same, not a species I'd want to handle though, apart from the itchies both my N chromatus and N coloratovillosus are stroppy things.


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

Ayra said:


> Well I got my first invert today, a Brazilian black and white tarantula. Just want to make sure I'm doing everything right and also want some help IDing it. There appears to be at least three different species with a common name of 'Brazilian black and white' so I'm quite confused. The shop I got him from says it's of the _Nhandu_ genus but any help is appreciated.
> 
> image
> 
> ...




That's a very nice T indeed & a good size too :2thumb:. Personally i would take all the advice Selina offers, she knows how to look after many different species of tarantula (aswell as identifying them too) & has a rather nice collection of T's :2thumb:.


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## **louise** (Nov 10, 2010)

boxofsorrows said:


> Nhandu hairs are vile, with me the effect isn't instant, *it's usually hours later and I've been to the point I wanted to peel my own skin off. Lovely fat puffy hands and red raw because no matter how much you try not too, the itching is so intense you have too*! But they're lovely looking spiders all the same, not a species I'd want to handle though, apart from the itchies both my N chromatus and N coloratovillosus are stroppy things.


Exactly how I was. Even the thought of it makes me itch. Shame because they are such beauties too. Mine were definitely a look but don't touch spider. Plus one of mine was a grumpy bugger.

Also to the OP. If you are handling the substrate or anything from the tub, you might want to wear gloves. I didn't and made my problems twice as bad because the hairs are in the enclosure too.


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## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

AilsaM said:


> Looks too wet in the enclosure and I would change from the orchid bark to eco earth as soon as you can. I personally use tortoise substrate - a mixture of sterilised top soil, sand and lime grit, it is good for T's that like it dry and also good for ones that like it a little more humid, it holds moisture and shape if they decide to dig down.
> 
> If the room is warm then you don't need any additional heating, the room I keep my T's & snakes I keep the ambient room temp between 22-28*C and I don't use additional heat sources - heat mats, cable etc etc however, if the room is cold then additional heating would be needed.
> 
> ...


How can you give advice for this when the OP has asked for a second opinion and you haven't even mentioned a species?

As far as this reply goes it puts you as clue less and the OP. If your going to post advise to the OP it might be an idea to mention a species or something?


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## Ayra (Mar 3, 2011)

Thanks for the advice guys.

Selina: are you sure it's _chromatus_ and not _coloratovillosus_? I'm not saying you're wrong 'cause I know naff all about inverts but _chromatus_ seem to have kind of... striped stripes, if that makes any sense? Where as _coloratovillosus_ look to have the more solid white joints.

Everyone: Thanks for warning me about the hairs. I know they can be uncomfortable but I've only every heard chile rose stories, I assume _Nhandu_ are a lot worse than that? Do the hairs have a toxin in/on them or are they just a dermal irritant?

Louise: We have a cupboard full of latex gloves. Will they be enough to protect from loose hairs in the enclosure or will I need something thicker like gardening gloves?

Again, that for everyone's help.

P.S. Alisa, I wasn't having a go, just thought I'd mention it lol.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Ayra said:


> Thanks for the advice guys.
> 
> *Selina: are you sure it's chromatus and not coloratovillosus? I'm not saying you're wrong 'cause I know naff all about inverts but chromatus seem to have kind of... striped stripes, if that makes any sense? Where as coloratovillosus look to have the more solid white joints.*
> 
> ...


Scrap that it could be a N.colloratovillosus i put the leg markings down to the photos because they arent clear lol


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## AilsaM (May 18, 2011)

Ayra said:


> P.S. Ailsa, I wasn't having a go, just thought I'd mention it lol.


Enjoy your new T



snowgoose said:


> How can you give advice for this when the OP has asked for a second opinion and you haven't even mentioned a species?
> 
> As far as this reply goes it puts you as clue less and the OP. If your going to post advise to the OP it might be an idea to mention a species or something?


I was just saying how I look after the T's I have and while I may not have the species the OP has after reading their care requirements then their care is similar to the T's which I keep...............so not clueless actually.


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## Ayra (Mar 3, 2011)

selina20 said:


> Scrap that it could be a N.colloratovillosus i put the leg markings down to the photos because they arent clear lol


It should have cost £50 if that makes any difference to your ID?

He wrote the latin name on the receipt but his handwriting's hard to read. It looks like _Nhandu curomams_ but I don't think there's such thing lol. But it definitely says 'BRAZILIAN BLK + WHITE' and _chromatus_ is red and white (I think).


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## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

AilsaM said:


> I was just saying how I look after the T's I have and while I may not have the species the OP has after reading their care requirements then their care is similar to the T's which I keep...............so not clueless actually.


The OP asked for an opinion to the species, which you failed to mention, yet you gave care advice for the T?


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Can we please stop picking up on people that are trying to help.
This isnt the snake area
opinions will vary, even by the experts


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## Ayra (Mar 3, 2011)

Also, he still doesn't have a name so all suggestions are welcome :2thumb:


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Ayra said:


> Also, he still doesn't have a name so all suggestions are welcome :2thumb:


Ghengis Khan


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## Ayra (Mar 3, 2011)

selina20 said:


> Ghengis Khan


Haha, any reason?


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Ayra said:


> Haha, any reason?


Since watching that Churchill advert the name amuses me with how the nodding dog says it XD


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## AilsaM (May 18, 2011)

snowgoose said:


> The OP asked for an opinion to the species, which you failed to mention, yet you gave care advice for the T?
> 
> image


My comments were based on their care requirements being similar to the species I keep and the pic of the enclosure the OP posted, I had a rough idea of species after a google search however, do you really expect a beginer to the hobby to successfully identify a species even when people who have been keeping them for years sometimes struggle to identify species.

If you gonna keep having a go then feel free.


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## Tarantulaguy01 (Mar 31, 2012)

How cute :flrt:


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

AilsaM said:


> My comments were based on their care requirements being similar to the species I keep and the pic of the enclosure the OP posted, I had a rough idea of species after a google search however, do you really expect a beginer to the hobby to successfully identify a species even when people who have been keeping them for years sometimes struggle to identify species.
> 
> If you gonna keep having a go then feel free.


I didnt struggle at all i made a mistake on how the photo was taken! Having kept both species i am able to offer advice on them both


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## boxofsorrows (Nov 7, 2011)

Call it Pruritus, it'll be an apt name once you experience the hairs!


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Tarantulaguy01 said:


> How cute :flrt:


Thats the spirit


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## Biggys (Jun 6, 2010)

I think Mods should be given those child leashes so they can keep an eye on the childish people at all times :roll:

As for an Id I'm going to have to side with Nhandu coloratovillosus!!!

and as for a name, Dave!


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

There are a few species that look similar to this, the most common of which are Nhandu chromatus and Acanthoscuria geniculata both of which are known as the Brazilian White Knee but the Nhandu gets the extra tag of Red and White Knee referring to the bright red setae on the abdomen. You might also consider A. brocklehursti and N. coloratovillosus when identifying these.

The carapace is the clue to species with N. chromatus showing a much lighter carapace than A. geniculata and A. brocklehursti. Both the Nhandu's have much redder setae but the N. coloratovillosus is far more hairy.

Photographs can easily bleach out the colours so I strongly suggest getting a pic outside in natural light.

All these will enjoy the same conditions within the enclosure. A good few inches of substrate which shouldnt be solely vermiculite or bark but can contains some of that. You can provide a hide if you wish, an easy one would be half a flower pot but these are all likely to be great display species. They're also quite ravenous eaters so 2 large crickets per week will easily be taken. Feeding more is not an issue but you definitely shouldn't do so every week. Infact you can easily go a week or 2 without feeding.
As these all live in the Brazilian rainforest a substrate that is off-dry suits best, plus a wide bowl for water eg. a plant saucer.
Once it moults you should check for the spermatheca as this will give you a proper ID on species and sex. I'd suggest its definitely not N. coloratovillosus or A. brocklehursti but probably N. chromatus.
They will all end up with fangs of about 1" so the danger is in the mechanical bite and possible secondary infection. They're not known to be very passive and they do have rather irritating urticating hairs.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Poxicator said:


> There are a few species that look similar to this, the most common of which are Nhandu chromatus and Acanthoscuria geniculata both of which are known as the Brazilian White Knee but the Nhandu gets the extra tag of Red and White Knee referring to the bright red setae on the abdomen. You might also consider A. brocklehursti and N. coloratovillosus when identifying these.
> 
> The carapace is the clue to species with N. chromatus showing a much lighter carapace than A. geniculata and A. brocklehursti. Both the Nhandu's have much redder setae but the N. coloratovillosus is far more hairy.
> 
> ...


I went on N.chromatus from the overall appearance but due to the photo quality the leg markings confused me. It does look quite odd to be an N.colloratovillosus due to how "bright" the setae appear. Tbh i freely admit eventhough i have kept both species i have only kept N.chromatus at juvenile size so only saw that in person. Im wondering whether the photo has blurred the white markings on the knees somewhat hence why it looks to have "solid" knees rather than the typical chromatus markings.


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## AilsaM (May 18, 2011)

selina20 said:


> I didnt struggle at all i made a mistake on how the photo was taken! Having kept both species i am able to offer advice on them both


I meant in general, not you in particular


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## shortyreptile (Feb 4, 2012)

that is a very nice looking t i would change the substrate to coco substrate or something like that. :2thumb:


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## **louise** (Nov 10, 2010)

Ayra said:


> Thanks for the advice guys.
> 
> 
> Louise: We have a cupboard full of latex gloves. Will they be enough to protect from loose hairs in the enclosure or will I need something thicker like gardening gloves?


I ended up using rubber gloves as it's all I had to hand.. (get it?? :lol2

They seemed to work fine but wear long sleeves too. I may be going a bit OTT but trust me, if it stops you coming into contact with the hairs, it may well be worth it.


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## Ayra (Mar 3, 2011)

Poxicator said:


> There are a few species that look similar to this, the most common of which are Nhandu chromatus and Acanthoscuria geniculata both of which are known as the Brazilian White Knee but the Nhandu gets the extra tag of Red and White Knee referring to the bright red setae on the abdomen. You might also consider A. brocklehursti and N. coloratovillosus when identifying these.
> 
> The carapace is the clue to species with N. chromatus showing a much lighter carapace than A. geniculata and A. brocklehursti. Both the Nhandu's have much redder setae but the N. coloratovillosus is far more hairy.
> 
> Photographs can easily bleach out the colours so I strongly suggest getting a pic outside in natural light.


If you had to put a tag on it what would you say? It's not as hairy as some of the _coloratovillosus_ I've seen on google but there also some that look similar to mine. However upon closer inspection he does seem to have some very faint white stripe running vertically down the segments between the knee joints (like in _chromatus_. He has a pale brown carapace with orangey brown hairs on the carapace and abdomen. 



selina20 said:


> I went on N.chromatus from the overall appearance but due to the photo quality the leg markings confused me. It does look quite odd to be an N.colloratovillosus due to how "bright" the setae appear. Tbh i freely admit eventhough i have kept both species i have only kept N.chromatus at juvenile size so only saw that in person. Im wondering whether the photo has blurred the white markings on the knees somewhat hence why it looks to have "solid" knees rather than the typical chromatus markings.


As above, he does have very faint white stripes BETWEEN the knees. But you can only see them if you get your eyes too close for comfort :lol2:

Sorry about the crappy pictures.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Ayra said:


> If you had to put a tag on it what would you say? It's not as hairy as some of the _coloratovillosus_ I've seen on google but there also some that look similar to mine. However upon closer inspection he does seem to have some very faint white stripe running vertically down the segments between the knee joints (like in _chromatus_. He has a pale brown carapace with orangey brown hairs on the carapace and abdomen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tarantulas arent the easiest to photograph so i wouldnt worry too much


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## Ayra (Mar 3, 2011)

selina20 said:


> Tarantulas arent the easiest to photograph so i wouldnt worry too much


I just realised you can see the stripes in the photos lol. They're really hard to see in real life.


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## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

A photo of a T can mean jack s**t. If anyway wants to way they can ID a T from a photo maybe well good luck to them


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## pcharlton (Mar 23, 2012)

boxofsorrows said:


> Nhandu hairs are vile, with me the effect isn't instant, it's usually hours later and I've been to the point I wanted to peel my own skin off. Lovely fat puffy hands and red raw because no matter how much you try not too, the itching is so intense you have too! But they're lovely looking spiders all the same, not a species I'd want to handle though, apart from the itchies both my N chromatus and N coloratovillosus are stroppy things.


the airs dont bother me they are stroppy :2thumb:


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## pcharlton (Mar 23, 2012)

selina dont be to upset about the wrong id i posted mine up and gave it the wrong id :lol2::lol2::lol2:so you can join my club:Na_Na_Na_Na::Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

pcharlton said:


> the airs dont bother me they are stroppy :2thumb:


There are 6 types of urticating hair, Im sure one of them will get you scratching one day


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## pcharlton (Mar 23, 2012)

Poxicator said:


> There are 6 types of urticating hair, Im sure one of them will get you scratching one day


they might be already lol i am always scratching anyway ive got psoriasis lol


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