# soil/sand weight...



## c_1993 (Jun 10, 2011)

Hi 

I'm building a 6(L)x2(D)x3(H) soon, and its going to be filled with a foot of soil/sand.

It's going to be kept in my bedroom but the question is will it take the weight of so much soil and sand plus 1 60x45x60 and 2 45x45x60 glass vivs on top?

My life wouldnt be worth living if my father comes home to a huge hole in the celling due to it collapsing from the weight :lol2:

Cheer : victory:


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

That'll be a hell of a weight. I don't think I'd risk it and if I did it would be right next to a supporting wall. Then again I haven't a clue on the structural integrity of the common house so your guess is as good as mine!


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## c_1993 (Jun 10, 2011)

tomcannon said:


> That'll be a hell of a weight. I don't think I'd risk it and if I did it would be right next to a supporting wall. Then again I haven't a clue on the structural integrity of the common house so your guess is as good as mine!


This has bummed me right out lol, I've been to engrossed in the planning of building the viv then I have of actually thinking about the actual weight of the soil and sand as well as the vivs.

Guess my beardie will have to wait a little while longer while i figure something else out :whistling2:

Cheers Tom.


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

c_1993 said:


> This has bummed me right out lol, I've been to engrossed in the planning of building the viv then I have of actually thinking about the actual weight of the soil and sand as well as the vivs.
> 
> Guess my beardie will have to wait a little while longer while i figure something else out :whistling2:
> 
> Cheers Tom.


Sorry! On the plus side I could be totally wrong! I've heard people warning against having heavy soil vivs upstairs for this reason but it is usually larger vivs with deeper substrate, bosc's for example. 

Hopefully someone with better knowledge on the situation will be able to help you more.


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## c_1993 (Jun 10, 2011)

tomcannon said:


> Sorry! On the plus side I could be totally wrong! I've heard people warning against having heavy soil vivs upstairs for this reason but it is usually larger vivs with deeper substrate, bosc's for example.
> 
> Hopefully someone with better knowledge on the situation will be able to help you more.


Not your fault lol, this is just me all over, never thinking things through properly :lol2:

I did come across a thread of someone asking if they could keep a 8x4x5 with 2ft substrate up-stairs, where Dave (my_shed) said the following;

The weight will be fine, as its 8x4 the actual pounds per inch of pressure downward will be relatively little and the minimum number of joists you'll be resting on will be 3, maybe 7 or 8 if the joists run the right way. Even with 3 ithe joist will be at least 10 by 3 and easily able to hold the weight. 


I just have no clue where the joists run, guess ill have to take a few floor boards up and see what Im dealing with lol : victory:


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

c_1993 said:


> Not your fault lol, this is just me all over, never thinking things through properly :lol2:
> 
> I did come across a thread of someone asking if they could keep a 8x4x5 with 2ft substrate up-stairs, where Dave (my_shed) said the following;
> 
> ...


See, that's a much more informative answer than mine! Where's Dave when you need him?! 

In that case I'd say its fine then. Makes sense now I think about it, due to its long length it'll have a lot of support from the joists (especially if you rip up the floor board so you can place it correctly in the room). I'd now say I was probably totally wrong and it'll be fine, however I'd definitely wait for a second opinion. :lol2::2thumb:


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

You don't see really fat people falling through the floor, so i wouldn't see there being an issue, and the weight is spread out rather than contained in one area.


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## Whosthedaddy (Nov 29, 2009)

c_1993 said:


> I just have no clue where the joists run, guess ill have to take a few floor boards up and see what Im dealing with lol : victory:


90 degrees to the boards themselves.

That is a hell of a weight to be honest and I'm sure it'd be fine but I dont know if you've worked out just how heavy that will be considering a bag of playsand is 10-15kg and the same for a bag of soil. Bags dont go that far and you have to use quite a few to get to 12 inches in depth.


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

Meko said:


> You don't see really fat people falling through the floor, so i wouldn't see there being an issue, and the weight is spread out rather than contained in one area.


Logical and funny! Really fat people have trouble getting up the stairs in the first place though.


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## c_1993 (Jun 10, 2011)

Whosthedaddy said:


> 90 degrees to the boards themselves.
> 
> That is a hell of a weight to be honest and I'm sure it'd be fine but I dont know if you've worked out just how heavy that will be considering a bag of playsand is 10-15kg and the same for a bag of soil. Bags dont go that far and you have to use quite a few to get to 12 inches in depth.


Cheers 

Haven't worked out the weight or how many bags of sand/soil I need yet,
but I know its going to be hell of a lot.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

if it's 6x2 and you need 10 25kg bags of soil, that's 250kg or 39 stone. So imagine two 20 stone people lying next to each other where you want the viv... you wouldn't think twice about it.


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## c_1993 (Jun 10, 2011)

Cheers for the help guys : victory:


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

Bulk density of of that mix will be roughly 20kN/m3. 

You will have 0.325m3 (1.8*0.6*0.3) of soil/sand or 6.25kN. 

1kN = 102Kg (ish)

So 637Kg.... (pretty much bang on 100 stone) Have fun hauling that upstairs!

Quantities based on a 15kg bag means 43 bags. 

Your viv is as near as dammit 1m2. (1.08 If we're going to be picky) So load is 6.25kN/m2

The next bit depends on the room size, span between joists and orientation of joists, so bear with me. 

If its a bedroom I am assuming a fairly small room and standard spacing of 400c/c between joists. 

Room = 3m * 3m (assumed!)
Viv rests on either 2 joists or 5. 
Joists either 100*50 or 125*50. (assumed!)

Capacity = 

100*50 @ 3m span = 0.9kN per m2
125*50 @ 3m span = 1.75kN per m2

100*50 

2 Joists = Max capacity of 1.8kN/m2 = Floor fails
5 joists = Max capacity of 4.5kN/m2 = Floor fails (eventually)

125*50

2 Joists = Max capacity of 3.5kN/m2 = Floor fails (eventually)
5 joists = Max capacity of 8.75kN/m2 = You're golden. 


These aren't strictly accurate - the load will be distributed accross more than the number of joists given above because of the floor boards. Also - the joist capacity is not a linear relationship, there is a sharp increase in spans less than 2m. 

If you want to give me more information I can do some more calcs, but proceed carefully. 



(Disclaimer - although I am a civil engineer my background is not strutural and the above is based on various assumptions. What you decide to do is up to you.)


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## TarentolaDave (Feb 8, 2013)

*Not sure if this helps . . .*

I had something similar. My Bosc viv is on the top floor. It is about 4' long (he is small), but I was aware that 1' of substrate would be a significant weight. I have therefore reduced the depth of substrate to 30cm or so, but built in tunnels/"burrows" which run laterally (as in along, rather than down). It is also against a supporting wall. Perhaps rethinking whether that depth of sand/soil is needed might produce results and get round your conundrum?


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

Basicaly the above. Its the depth thats killing it. Drop it to 3 inches or so maybe better. 

I think youve under estimated just how deep a ft is!


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## c_1993 (Jun 10, 2011)

Lord Vetinari said:


> Basicaly the above. Its the depth thats killing it. Drop it to 3 inches or so maybe better.
> 
> I think youve under estimated just how deep a ft is!


Thank you for your informative answer  didn't expect an answer like that lol.

But I'm going to leave it for now, I'm hoping to move out at the end of this year it would be far too much effort when the time comes to move to empty a viv containing that much soil/sand and carting it up and down the stairs.

So I think its best for me to put this on hiatus until I move into my own home where I can keep it downstairs.

Thanks for all your help everyone :notworthy:


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

c_1993 said:


> Thank you for your informative answer  didn't expect an answer like that lol.
> 
> But I'm going to leave it for now, I'm hoping to move out at the end of this year it would be far too much effort when the time comes to move to empty a viv containing that much soil/sand and carting it up and down the stairs.
> 
> ...


It was the thought of hauling more than half a tonne up stairs that put you off wasn't it... :lol2:

But yes- once something like that was in it would be a crap job to move it again.


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## c_1993 (Jun 10, 2011)

Lord Vetinari said:


> It was the thought of hauling more than half a tonne up stairs that put you off wasn't it... :lol2:
> 
> But yes- once something like that was in it would be a crap job to move it again.



Yeah, I'd have no arms left lugging all that soil and sand upstairs I'm only a small girl :lol2:

Now I know why the monitor keepers are usually big and buff, its all that soil they lug about :whistling2:


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## mitsi (Feb 1, 2012)

im a monitor keeper and im not big and buff, my boscs viv is 8x4x4 and has 18 inches of substrate in it, took loads of bags of sand and soil to fill it this deep , am lucky though as its in my shed so didnt have to lug it all upstairs, just down the garden 80ft. think i used 54 bags of soil and 20 bags of sand roughly. wouldnt dream of putting this much weight upstairs though as as a bosc needs this space and depth to be healthy only had one option and that was to keep him on ground level.


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## heathster (Jan 24, 2013)

TarentolaDave said:


> I had something similar. My Bosc viv is on the top floor. It is about 4' long (he is small), but I was aware that 1' of substrate would be a significant weight. I have therefore reduced the depth of substrate to 30cm or so, but built in tunnels/"burrows" which run laterally (as in along, rather than down). It is also against a supporting wall. Perhaps rethinking whether that depth of sand/soil is needed might produce results and get round your conundrum?


I have to say it, but you say 1ft of substrate will be a significant weight... so you reduced it to 30cm or so...
1ft = 12inches
1inch = 2.5cm
12inches = 30cm
30cm = 1ft



Adam

Sent From My Galaxy S3 Using Tapatalk 2


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## c_1993 (Jun 10, 2011)

mitsi said:


> im a monitor keeper and im not big and buff, my boscs viv is 8x4x4 and has 18 inches of substrate in it, took loads of bags of sand and soil to fill it this deep , am lucky though as its in my shed so didnt have to lug it all upstairs, just down the garden 80ft. think i used 54 bags of soil and 20 bags of sand roughly. wouldnt dream of putting this much weight upstairs though as as a bosc needs this space and depth to be healthy only had one option and that was to keep him on ground level.


Sorry I should of said 'some' monitor keepers lol didn't mean to make a generalization : victory:

But have you seen 'monitormad' wow :whistling2:

Anything with a load of soil is going to be kept on ground floor, as I don't want to risk anything.


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## mitsi (Feb 1, 2012)

yes ive seen him, im only a little woman myself but its surprising what we can do when we want to, lol.


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## Whosthedaddy (Nov 29, 2009)

Lord Vetinari said:


> Basicaly the above. Its the depth thats killing it. Drop it to 3 inches or so maybe better.
> 
> I think youve under estimated just how deep a ft is!


Its that depth for reason I'm afraid and this goes to show how inappropriate some species of lizards are to keep.


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

Whosthedaddy said:


> Its that depth for reason I'm afraid and this goes to show how inappropriate some species of lizards are to keep.


If it needs to be that deep and big I would be digging it into to ground as part of a shed/outbuilding base. 

But you would be looking at £k's. 

I sure as hell wouldn't be putting it upstairs.


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

mitsi said:


> im a monitor keeper and im not big and buff, my boscs viv is 8x4x4 and has 18 inches of substrate in it, took loads of bags of sand and soil to fill it this deep , am lucky though as its in my shed so didnt have to lug it all upstairs, just down the garden 80ft. think i used 54 bags of soil and 20 bags of sand roughly. wouldnt dream of putting this much weight upstairs though as as a bosc needs this space and depth to be healthy only had one option and that was to keep him on ground level.


Glad to see my quantities were about right! 

Not bad even if I do say so myself. :2thumb:


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

ive kept a 240l fish tank in my bedroom and believe me that is one heavy fish tank. its probably already been said but it depends on your floorboards i think that judges how much weight they can take.

imo that much soil spread over such a large area shouldnt be a problem, i would just check which way the floorboards run and dont place the viv parallel with them


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## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

Hey, somehow missed this thread, but i'll throw my two cents in. Weight of soil will depend on the mix you use, how damp it is, what type of soil, etc. The example somewhere above was 54 bags soil, to 20 bags sand, to fill an 8 x 4 area to a depth of 18 inches. You want to fill an area less than half this size, to two thirds of the depth, so realistically, just using that example, you'll need 18 bags of soil and 7 bags of sand. 

Now, the joists should be a minimum of 6 x 2, and in fact I'd be surprised to hear of anything less than 8 x 2, either of which are going to be absolutely fine to support this weight. 

The only worries I would have would be if it was an old property that had not had a survey carried out relatively recently, or if it was in the centre of a large (5mx5m+) room. Otherwise you should have absolutely no problems whatsoever.

Dave


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## Marwolaeth (Oct 29, 2012)

Maybe adding coco fibre and orchid bark would make the mix lighter?


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## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

Marwolaeth said:


> Maybe adding coco fibre and orchid bark would make the mix lighter?


 
Indeed it would, I personally often use a large amount of bark in my substrate mixes, for a 6x2 viv a foot deep you could use about 5 of the large 100 liter bags, this would only weigh about 125kg.

Dave


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Although...... how come you're planning on that depth for a 




c_1993 said:


> This has bummed me right out lol, I've been to engrossed in the planning of building the viv then I have of actually thinking about the actual weight of the soil and sand as well as the vivs.
> 
> Guess my *beardie *will have to wait a little while longer while i figure something else out :whistling2:
> 
> Cheers Tom.


it's a fairly extreme amount of depth for a critter that usually lives on a hardish surface.


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## SnakeBreeder (Mar 11, 2007)

That's a hell of a weight.
Shame you could not have it down stairs. Idealy on a cement floor.


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## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

Meko said:


> Although...... how come you're planning on that depth for a
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought I remembered seeing yhat it was for a beardie, but was catching up on a load of threads so wasn't sure. Valid question though, will a beardie gain anything from this depth of substrate?

Dave


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## c_1993 (Jun 10, 2011)

Meko said:


> Although...... how come you're planning on that depth for a
> 
> 
> 
> ...





my_shed said:


> I thought I remembered seeing yhat it was for a beardie, but was catching up on a load of threads so wasn't sure. Valid question though, will a beardie gain anything from this depth of substrate?
> 
> Dave


Sorry I've not seen these reply's somehow.

I read somewhere (after randomly browsing some stuff) about Bearded dragons being burrowers.
And under that hard clay is damp soil/sand and supposedly bearded dragons are similar to monitors in how they hydrate themselves.

This then led me to another reptile forum where I found a few Americans who keep their bearded dragons and even their Leo's like Monitors.
High temps, retes stacks and a deep sand soil mix for all those different humidity gradients. Obviously the deeper the better so you get a larger range of humidity gradients, the top of the substrate is completely dry but the deeper down they burrow the damper the soil and the higher the humidity which then aids in keeping the bearded dragon hydrated. 

They seem to be having great success by keeping their BD's and Leo's like this, I know there's quite a few keepers on here who do the same.

I thought I'd try it out see how it works for my BD : victory:

(I have a link to another forum where a thread was made by a guy who was against any type of particle substrate and all that crap (you must know the type I mean) and how he decided to experiment with this way of keeping BD's. its worth a look at. PM me if you want it )


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## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

c_1993 said:


> Sorry I've not seen these reply's somehow.
> 
> I read somewhere (after randomly browsing some stuff) about Bearded dragons being burrowers.
> And under that hard clay is damp soil/sand and supposedly bearded dragons are similar to monitors in how they hydrate themselves.
> ...


No worries I'm aware of this method of keeping semi arid and arid animals, in fact I've used it myself, and to some extent still do. 2 foot is a little overkill for a beardie, in my experience, as they tend to cool rapidly when they're away from the warm air, and they don't really appreciate it. I do like to provide a slightly, and I mean slightly, damper substrate, followed by a fine substrate then a dusty dry substrate on top, Not out of a great belief in this being a method by which most of them rehydrate, because it isn't, but it does allow the animal to regulate how quickly it dehydrates, to some extent. 

A useable layer is about 6 - 12 inches for a beardie, they'll rarely dig much lower than that, and provided loose flat rocks are provided to create some form of roof, they will be happy to burrow. Be very aware that when digging they will be exposing themselves to damp soil, this will in turn expose them to potential pathogens, bacteria, molds, etc that they're not usually exposed too.

By all means give it a try, but please be aware there are risks, as above, and also the obvious one. Walking in the room and finding your beardie has buried themselves in 2 foot of substrate, then had a cave-in and is trapped, or worse.

Good luck if you go for it though

Dave


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## c_1993 (Jun 10, 2011)

my_shed said:


> No worries I'm aware of this method of keeping semi arid and arid animals, in fact I've used it myself, and to some extent still do. 2 foot is a little overkill for a beardie, in my experience, as they tend to cool rapidly when they're away from the warm air, and they don't really appreciate it. I do like to provide a slightly, and I mean slightly, damper substrate, followed by a fine substrate then a dusty dry substrate on top, Not out of a great belief in this being a method by which most of them rehydrate, because it isn't, but it does allow the animal to regulate how quickly it dehydrates, to some extent.
> 
> A useable layer is about 6 - 12 inches for a beardie, they'll rarely dig much lower than that, and provided loose flat rocks are provided to create some form of roof, they will be happy to burrow. Be very aware that when digging they will be exposing themselves to damp soil, this will in turn expose them to potential pathogens, bacteria, molds, etc that they're not usually exposed too.
> 
> ...


 
Cheers for the reply Dave 

I wasn't going to use 2ft of substrate as that is over kill for a beardie :lol2: I plan on 1ft maybe a couple inches less.


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## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

c_1993 said:


> Cheers for the reply Dave
> 
> I wasn't going to use 2ft of substrate as that is over kill for a beardie :lol2: I plan on 1ft maybe a couple inches less.


 
Ooops tired brain! Lol yeah......a foot of substrate........a foot.....yeah.

I remember now, just flicked back through and refreshed myself. A foot is pretty good for a beardie, be aware that the self burial thing can happen with a foot too, and it's easy to overwater the substrate to maintain the dampness, causing damage to the viv, the room, and most importantly (although strangely least expensively) to your beardie.

As I understand it in the wild they will often utilize other animals abandoned burrows, you may be able to make a bit of an entrance hole and your beardie will continue tunnelling there, just a thought on how to encourage burrowing in an animal that hasn't had the opportunity before.

Dave


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## c_1993 (Jun 10, 2011)

my_shed said:


> Ooops tired brain! Lol yeah......a foot of substrate........a foot.....yeah.
> 
> I remember now, just flicked back through and refreshed myself. A foot is pretty good for a beardie, be aware that the self burial thing can happen with a foot too, and it's easy to overwater the substrate to maintain the dampness, causing damage to the viv, the room, and most importantly (although strangely least expensively) to your beardie.
> 
> ...



Thanks Dave 

I'll definitely keep a close eye on him and see how it goes, he's always trying to dig up his clay so I'd like to see what he'd behave like on this mix of substrate. 
Hopefully it will be a interesting watch.


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