# ‘Experts’



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

On another thread “Venomous snake" scare in Llanelli? - BBC News” the issue of experts and what qualifies them to be an expert and who appoints them as such has been raised. Personal I do not like the term ‘expert’, after all an ‘ex’ is a has been, and a ‘spurt’ is a drip under pressure – in my view anyone who calls themselves an expert, isn’t! 

That aside, the issue is very interesting and indeed very relevant. In terms of reptiles over the years a number of people have appointed themselves as ‘experts’ in the field, broadly speaking there are relatively few academic qualifications in terms of reptiles than can be used to define someone as an ‘expert’, therefore it is not difficult for anyone to position themselves as a self appointed expert!

There is a genuine need for authorities, be these Local Authorities or indeed National Authorities, to have access to ‘suitable experienced people’ [trying to avoid the term expert]. The issue of self appointed experts is one that the authorities themselves are aware off, in terms of animal welfare there is no central register of experts upon which the authorities can call. The establishing of such is something which has been and continues to be discussed by government. 

One of the fundamental problems is how do you define who is, or is not an expert! My personal thoughts on this issue is that as a community we have within our ranks a vast untapped array of expertise, knowledge, experience, call it what you will. What we need is a mechanism for some kind of peer reviewed approval. In other words to bring some form of accountability to those who give advise or assistance to authorities – what do people think about this!


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Totally agree Chris. Unfortunately, Local Authorities seem only too willing to listen to these "experts" and take their word as gospel, as in the case of Mr Hopkins in Llanelli.
It seems that the only "qualifications" needed are a tireless need for self-publicity, a convincing line in "patter" and the ability to capitalise on the public's fears of snakes etc to sensationalise your limited abilities and hey presto, you are now a "leading authority"

where do I sign up?:lol2:


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## Requiem (Mar 22, 2010)

Chris Newman said:


> On another thread “Venomous snake" scare in Llanelli? - BBC News” the issue of experts and what qualifies them to be an expert and who appoints them as such has been raised. Personal I do not like the term ‘expert’, after all an ‘ex’ is a has been, and a ‘spurt’ is a drip under pressure – in my view anyone who calls themselves an expert, isn’t!
> 
> That aside, the issue is very interesting and indeed very relevant. In terms of reptiles over the years a number of people have appointed themselves as ‘experts’ in the field, broadly speaking there are relatively few academic qualifications in terms of reptiles than can be used to define someone as an ‘expert’, therefore it is not difficult for anyone to position themselves as a self appointed expert!
> 
> ...


I concur with the peer reviewed approval suggestion. Since reading these boards I have observed that the most knowledgeable members with the most experience, whether a career choice or not, are often the most humble and least likely to refer to themselves as "experts".

It is worrying that self-appointed experts are consulted by authorities and seem to be chosen due to their own self-promotion, rather than from the sum of their knowledge and experience. Any situation similar to the original thread has the potential to be detrimental to the keeping of reptiles in this country.

I personally feel that it is imperative that the peer-reviewed "ambassadors" are people who will provide those seeking advice with accurate information in an unbiased manner. There are two possible extremes to be weary of; the first being the sort of attention seeker who may dramatise the situation for their own publicity by conjuring a media-sensationalist story to portray reptile keeping in a negative light. The second, which I see as equally detrimental, is the possibility of an experienced keeper who will do anything they can to protect the hobby portraying information in a positive-only light, which of course could result in the wrong decisions being made. When it comes to the safety of the general public, a truthful, balanced perspective is compulsory, even on the extraordinarily rare occasion it may cast negativity onto the hobby.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

I'm not a fan of the word 'expet'. Especially when applied to such a large subject matter such as reptiles. Therefore the term 'reptile expert' is a pretty big claim to make IMHO.

Afterall, there are many highly experienced snake keepers but they may well know bugger all about about Chelonia and may well have never even seen a tuatara let alone know anything of any real consequence about them. So I agree that the term reptile expert means very little in the real world.

Just out of interest what are the currently available academic qualification regarding reptiles?


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Mynki said:


> I'm not a fan of the word 'expet'. Especially when applied to such a large subject matter such as reptiles. Therefore the term 'reptile expert' is a pretty big claim to make IMHO.
> 
> Afterall, there are many highly experienced snake keepers but they may well know bugger all about about Chelonia and may well have never even seen a tuatara let alone know anything of any real consequence about them. So I agree that the term reptile expert means very little in the real world.
> 
> Just out of interest what are the currently available academic qualification regarding reptiles?


As far as I'm aware you would need to go to USA to complete a Herpetological based higher educational qualification.


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## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

Chris Newman said:


> My personal thoughts on this issue is that as a community we have within our ranks a vast untapped array of expertise, knowledge, experience, call it what you will. What we need is a mechanism for some kind of peer reviewed approval. In other words to bring some form of accountability to those who give advise or assistance to authorities – what do people think about this!


If the above could be actioned Chris, it would be the biggest boost ever to the Hobby, as untold damage is done daily by those that proclam to be "experts" when they clearly are not even near to being one.

With regards to Geraint, his words in this two threads truly bother me, and I thus question this man's expertise??????????

BBC NEWS | Wales | South West Wales | Milk snake hiding in shop's door

BBC NEWS | Wales | 'Lost' snake strikes at workmen


Whilst on the subject of Experts Chris, do you remember this Guy????????? 

I wonder if Geriant (whilst being such a thinking Man), thought this story was worth re-inacting????????????


BBC News | Special Report | Snake expert hunts "cobra"


Mo.


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## AZUK (Jul 9, 2007)

stuartdouglas said:


> Totally agree Chris. Unfortunately, Local Authorities seem only too willing to listen to these "experts" and take their word as gospel, as in the case of Mr Hopkins in Llanelli.
> It seems that the only "qualifications" needed are a tireless need for self-publicity, a convincing line in "patter" and the ability to capitalise on the public's fears of snakes etc to sensationalise your limited abilities and hey presto, you are now a "leading authority"
> 
> *where do I sign up?*:lol2:


 Belive me you Don't !
To be fair it's not always the "Local expert " to blame for their notoriety.
I seem to have adopted this Monica around these parts, I have been called in the local press "Snake expert, Spider expert, Bug expert and Exotic animal expert." Never once have I claimed to be any of these. Trouble is once the Local press and council have wind of you , you will be called upon to explain and even sort out all manner of related predicaments. I have in the past had to deal with lost snakes, spiders in Bananas and even a Skunk found roaming around a cemetery .
True the gentleman in question seems ill informed but that might just be the way the press has depicted him and his answers.
Mr Hopkins has some thing of a reputation around this area although having never met him I can not judge.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Maureen Collinson said:


> If the above could be actioned Chris, it would be the biggest boost ever to the Hobby, as untold damage is done daily by those that proclam to be "experts" when they clearly are not even near to being one.
> 
> With regards to Geraint, his words in this two threads truly bother me, and I thus question this man's expertise??????????
> 
> ...


I must concede Mo I don’t remembers him at all! Interesting similarities!!!

The issue of self appointed ‘experts’ is one that has dogged our hobby for years, its all to easy for people with the right patter to tout themselves as experts and get into positions of some influence with authorities. I am quite convinced that many people start off with the right intentions but become seduced by the dark side, fame and fortune!! However, the ball is in our court to do something about it, the question is do we have the appetite!


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

Chris Newman said:


> I must concede Mo I don’t remembers him at all! Interesting similarities!!!
> 
> The issue of self appointed ‘experts’ is one that has dogged our hobby for years, its all to easy for people with the right patter to tout themselves as experts and get into positions of some influence with authorities. I am quite convinced that many people start off with the right intentions but become seduced by the dark side, fame and fortune!! However, the ball is in our court to do something about it, the question is do we have the appetite!


 so wat do you sugest sir?


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

I am afraid i too have been called an EXPERT in the local press when i used to run an exotic animal rescue a few years ago. Even though i had never spoke to the press i had done a job for the local authority when the RSPCA wouldnt deal with the problem they had. The thing was the RSPCA went to the press and gave the details as to what had happend and said "we had our local snake expert Lee Birch on hand to help us with the problem".Then went on to do the usual speal about people keeping reptiles as pets etc etc. Thing is I never saw hide nor hair of the RSPCA and never even spoke to any of there officers.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

penfold said:


> so wat do you sugest sir?


 
To be quite honest I have not thought this matter through in detail, at the moment I am just floating the idea to see what kind of responses it elicits. Ultimately what I want to achieve is transparency and accountability. I guess in many ways this harps back to the failed Memorandum of Understanding that was proposed by the RSPCA some years back. The opportunity to take forward something like this with local and national authorities is very much open to discussion, the question is are we, as hobbyists, ready to take this step or not!


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

I think it would be a good idea but the problems i see are how do you guage someone for the title of expert?


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

The media love 'experts.'

The problem is many people have 'expertise' in certain areas. Some are forthcoming in dishing it out, others are quiet and only offer when asked.

For example one of the most knowledgeable people I know on European snakes is David Buttle although many will never have heard of him. He's quiet, doesn't like speaking publicly but contributes to cracking scientific papers.

I don't know what point I just made there though..!


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

I have thought a leaf should be taken from the dog breeders book and applied to the reptile CB trade. I.e. the kennel club but for reptiles. Everything should be standardized, so (for example) everyone knows what to expect, and what to do when things go wrong. 

People affiliated with such a group should be trusted, in the sense that they are not talking out of their A hole. Not everyone has official qualifications, and I agree, this should not exclude them from being considered as a knowledgeable person capable of contributions to the hobby. 

The US has ARK, do we have a UK equivalent? I'm sure we could do a better job.


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## Richcymru (Nov 21, 2008)

I dont even know where to start with these stories. What makes him think its a rear fanged snake? its more than likely an adder and im very surprised that one never got mentioned. but I guess that no news about adders is good news 
Any true expert would not just make unsubstantiated claims like he is. Let him scour the valleys for a boomslang or whatever he thinks it is...


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## iajo (Sep 16, 2008)

to be fair there is no way to grade expertise. This guy has 30 years of experience with reptiles, he probably knows much more than i do and his knowledge is far superior to a local councillor or reporter whose knowledge of snakes comes from the first anaconda movie they watched once whilst pissed. 

The question is with so little formal qualifications around what could you use to judge expertise? As has been posted no one who refers to themselves as an expert can be one. If you are not an expert what qualifies you to say that someone else is? 

The problem here is all the information has come from poor sources, the crap news rag and the guys wife. Whilst i dont believe he is above making this kind of thing up for publicity purposes that doesn't reflect on his knowledge, just his willingness to put aside decency in search of profit. 

There will always be people who talk a good game and until there is a body who can say to the government we will advise you and our advise is certified because..., there will always be chancers. Even if there is a group formed it could end up like the rspca whose advice is taken as gospel but is often not all that good.


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

I dont believe there is any formal qualification for "A Reptile expert"


Is there?


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## STReptiles (Feb 6, 2009)

its the same as anything, what about expert footballers, do they have a degree in football? i dont think so. Some one that has 30 years of reptile experience of a variety of reptiles is as good as an expert imo


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

I don’t want to get bog down in debate over the word ‘expert’ – I think we all agree basically on that point! What I am interested in is there a desire to find a mechanism to bring accountability and transparency to those whose services are used by authorities. I presume that we would all agree that there is a need for local/national authorities, police, even dare I say the RSPCA [please don’t throw stones at me] to have access to people with specialist knowledge on herps, be this to identify something, remove something or perhaps give guidance on how something is being kept etc. If we accept there is a need for this, as I suspect we do, the question is do we wish to find a way to make such people accountable. Accountable is actually not the right phraseology, what I am trying to get is some way of giving endorsement, an endorsement that can be revoked if they act improperly, sorry can’t get the words right this evening, but I hope you get the gist of what I mean!


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

i think you are spot on chris


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

Are we being serious here quoting the kennel club and asking for a similar 'reptile standardisation organisation?'


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Caz said:


> Are we being serious here quoting the kennel club and asking for a sililar 'reptile standardisation organisation?'


Me? 

Yeah.

What the problem with standardization? 

I only used the kennel club as an example of a large organisation and I don't know their business throughout.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

Gaboon said:


> Me?
> 
> Yeah.
> 
> ...


What are we standardising though?


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

Chris Newman said:


> I don’t want to get bog down in debate over the word ‘expert’ – I think we all agree basically on that point! What I am interested in is there a desire to find a mechanism to bring accountability and transparency to those whose services are used by authorities. I presume that we would all agree that there is a need for local/national authorities, police, even dare I say the RSPCA [please don’t throw stones at me] to have access to people with specialist knowledge on herps, be this to identify something, remove something or perhaps give guidance on how something is being kept etc. If we accept there is a need for this, as I suspect we do, the question is do we wish to find a way to make such people accountable. Accountable is actually not the right phraseology, what I am trying to get is some way of giving endorsement, an endorsement that can be revoked if they act improperly, sorry can’t get the words right this evening, but I hope you get the gist of what I mean!


 
I think you are 100% correct Chris, I have been talking to Environmental health, the RSPCA and Defra recently on Reptile related issues. I must say that their expertise in this field is severly lacking to say the least


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Caz said:


> What are we standardising though?


Practices in short. 

With the 'morph' market and the emerging hybrid market people should be able to trust their seller, by affiliation perhaps? 

As we know many of the 'experts' and official bodies that advice the press etc simply don't have a clue. 

Just slinging it out there...


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

Excellent idea Chris, it is quite simple really, we need to police ourselves before some ill informed government organisation does it for us.


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## pam b (Mar 3, 2005)

Chris Newman said:


> I don’t want to get bog down in debate over the word ‘expert’ – I think we all agree basically on that point! What I am interested in is there a desire to find a mechanism to bring accountability and transparency to those whose services are used by authorities. I presume that we would all agree that there is a need for local/national authorities, police, even dare I say the RSPCA [please don’t throw stones at me] to have access to people with specialist knowledge on herps, be this to identify something, remove something or perhaps give guidance on how something is being kept etc. If we accept there is a need for this, as I suspect we do, the question is do we wish to find a way to make such people accountable. Accountable is actually not the right phraseology, what I am trying to get is some way of giving endorsement, an endorsement that can be revoked if they act improperly, sorry can’t get the words right this evening, but I hope you get the gist of what I mean!


I think there is a great need for this........
Lets look at this logically, and some answers can be found within the questions themselves.
If i am reading you correctly Chris you are searching for a correct method of some form of *policeing* for want of a better word, people who assist organisations and for whatever reason consider themselves knowledable?
Accountability and Endorsement would imply by definition that some form of a panel would need to be set up whom would then *Acredit* (by what means?)people, again for lack of a better word (and avoiding expert), because if something is revoked obviously there has to be a higher power in place to do so. A panel or board of respected peers.
Monumental task, but ultimately for the good if it can be made possible.


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