# just a quick question



## nitro (Dec 8, 2009)

is it frowned upon to keep adders?


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

if you are talking british adders its not frowned upon its illegle


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## nitro (Dec 8, 2009)

endangered species?? it ok i remember someone going on about them before and one was saying you could and the other saying you couldnt


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## nitro (Dec 8, 2009)

Adders - Livefood UK Forum


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Hey 

If you don't have a DWAL it is illegal, however I was under the impresion that if you had one you could keep WC ones, perhaps I am wrong though. However unless the snake is in poor health & you have the ability to nurse it better, I think the only one who would benefit is the human.


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## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

You'll need a DWA to keep adders and there is absolutely no need to take any from the wild as they are often readily available over in Europe 3rd gen cb.
British adders are seriously in decline due to many reasons. Dog walking in their habitat, screwed up weather , criminal heathland management destroying their habitat and hibernacula, ignorant people killing them believing they are doing the public a favour , the list goes on.

If you're serious about keeping berus go to one of the European shows and buy from a breeder.

Cheers,
Al


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

Hi Owen i have always thought it was unlawfull to keep endangerd indigenus Sp
i have kept an ill looking snake that was bought to me a while ago but after getting it back to full helth i released it on cannock chase from the area it was found.
the best person i would say is slippery42 on this one as its his field


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## nitro (Dec 8, 2009)

Owzy said:


> Hey
> 
> However unless the snake is in poor health & you have the ability to nurse it better, I think the only one who would benefit is the human.


i think that goes for all the snakes we keep :2thumb:


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Thats a matter of opinion


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## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Lee mate.
I've carried out extensive field studies on Brit herps since the early 80's. If you have a DWA with berus listed as a species you can keep it is not illegal to keep wc's.
However, it is totaly uncalled for as they're readily avaiable CB and only helps push this beautiful species closer to the brink.

Cheers,
Al


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

Al Hyde said:


> Hi Lee mate.
> I've carried out extensive field studies on Brit herps since the early 80's. If you have a DWA with berus listed as a species you can keep it is not illegal to keep wc's.
> However, it is totaly uncalled for as they're readily avaiable CB and only helps push this beautiful species closer to the brink.
> 
> ...


cheers Al hows it going? well i admit i am no expert on British wildlife which is shamefull really when you think of it, but you say its not illegal to keep with DWAL but proberbly moraly wrong, i am in total agreement about taking them from the wild. living between Cannock chase and Sutton park i have no need to own one myself as personaly i would rather go and TRY and find them in there natural habitat along with grass snakes and i have even found a common lizard colony on the garden of our old house a couple of years ago.

I believed it was illegal to keep them due to the fact they are classed as endangerd and only in a country like ours would that mean "yea there endangerd but hay fill your boots take as many as you want as long as you have paid us loads of cash for your DWA licance" or am i just being cynical


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## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

Hey mate, I feel the same way you do, it's about time all our native Rep's and amphib's had full protection, not just the smooth snake , sand lizard and great crested newt.

Moraly wrong is spot on.

Cheers,
Al


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

Just a quick q Al. 
I don't know too much about your native snakes etc. But how does the pet trade actually affect the species, as opposed to the damage caused by cars, pets, ignorant people?


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

mad martin said:


> Just a quick q Al.
> I don't know too much about your native snakes etc. But how does the pet trade actually affect the species, as opposed to the damage caused by cars, pets, ignorant people?


At the risk of doing a VL and answering a question aimed at someone else Martin here in the uk i have never seen a WC or even CB native Sp of reptile for sale within the pet trade recently or in the last 20 years
so the answer to your question would be that the pet trade has little or more like no effect on our own Sp and the demise od indigenous animals is purely down to what Al mentioned ie dog walkers people develpment poor conservation areas and proberbly little or no education#


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

Fair enough, but let's phrase it like this then.
How does illegal collecting affect the population as opposed to all the other factors involved in its decline?


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

Oh yeah, and I really don't mind who answers the question, as long as the answer is based on fact and not google .


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

my own thought that it wouldnt be too hamfull but that is definatly a question for someone like Al or Graeme who would give you more factual based answers


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## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Martin,

Lee's right, the pet trade has very little impact on our native herps these days. There are still a few rogue traders around that advertise juvenile berus and slow worms though.
It is now ilegal to trade british reptiles in any way, but when these rogue traders are reported NOTHING is done about it.

Back in the 70's trading in native herps was commonplace and many populations are still trying to recover from the damage caused.
As an example, the pet trade wiped out sand lizards in many parts of Surrey and reintroduction schemes are now being used in an attempt to get these populations back.

So, to answer your Question Martin , illegal collecting has very little impact these days, but the scars from the past are still open and weeping. In my opinion ,everytime heavy machinary is used for heathland management or, dogs bounce repeatedly over heathland and across hibernacula, the wounds are re-opened and become deeper still. 

Cheers,
Al


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

Okay excellent.

Tell me something Al, or anyone really (no google because I can do that too), what is there distribution range? (using say London as a reference point)


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## Lamprophis (Jun 12, 2008)

Anyone who has encountered adders in their natural environment will agree they are an amazing sight to behold. I personally have spent many hours in beautiful countryside from early to mid morning adder spotting, and must say it is one of my favourite hobbies. For this reason amongst many others I simply do not see the attraction of keeping an adder as a "pet", as there is much more enjoyment to be had from viewing them in their natural "vivs"....


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## Jack W (Feb 9, 2009)

Al Hyde said:


> Hi Martin,
> 
> Lee's right, the pet trade has very little impact on our native herps these days. There are still a few rogue traders around that advertise juvenile berus and slow worms though.
> It is now ilegal to trade british reptiles in any way, but when these rogue traders are reported NOTHING is done about it.
> ...


Good answer, very interesting.



nitro said:


> i think that goes for all the snakes we keep :2thumb:


Don't agree with this though. I'm pretty sure that all of my species have a better life in captivity than in the wild. Regular food supply, no parasites, longer life expectancy, I don't overly handle my snakes so they are unstressed. They all have large enclosures, and everything they need plus more. The reason keeping wc v. berus is only beneficial to the keeper is because they are so difficult to keep in captivity, they don't adapt very easily at all to a captive environment, and they are are endangered any way so we need to keep their wild numbers as high as possible.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

> Don't agree with this though. I'm pretty sure that all of my species have a better life in captivity than in the wild. Regular food supply, no parasites, longer life expectancy, I don't overly handle my snakes so they are unstressed. They all have large enclosures, and everything they need plus more


.
No offence intended, but that is a statement made out of a personal point of view and has no basis for fact. The standard of their lives is measured by you. I have yet to see a Snouted Cobra (for example) in better physical condition from a collection when compared to a healthy one from the wild. 
99.9% of all snakes in captivity are overfed. Overeating is not a healthier way of living. Few snakes eat just one food type in their natural environment, so rarely are all the nutritional requirements met in captivity.
Viv size: a Black Mamba has a home range of a square kilometre or so, so no viv, regardless of how big it is, is really big enough.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Live food forum, now there's a real source of scientific information...NOT

As some of the more sensible people have stated .....



DWA required!
They are in decline and threatened!
As a rule captives Do not do well in captivity
There is NO justification for keeping wild caught!
Even though they may not be classed as a European Protected species you may be breaking the law in taking them from the wild so for F**k sake do not under any circumstances do it!
Its not often I get wound up but haviny spent 30+ years studying Adders (in the Wild) I am passionate about their conservation as is Al.


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## craig8989 (Apr 23, 2008)

what if someone caught a pair, used them as breeders and made every attempt to repopulate their area. could this be a possible short term awnser to the decreaseing numbers of them?


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

Breeding and releasing is not the answer at all, well not the entire answer 
That is why I am asking all the questions I am asking. Its important to try and figure out what factors are prevalent in its decline. If it is human encroachment in a prime breeding area, then very little can be done. 
But there are many factors. Abundance of a necessary food source or lack thereof etc.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

craig8989 said:


> what if someone caught a pair, used them as breeders and made every attempt to repopulate their area. could this be a possible short term awnser to the decreaseing numbers of them?


Question;

If they are having trouble breeding and repopulating areas by themselves in the wild, do you think the average hobbyist is likely to be more successful?

More to the point how much damage do you do to the wild populations you intend to "help" by introducing animals that may have been in contact with your exotic collection?

Conservation is much more complex than you might have imagined, it is honestly best left to the professionals


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

craig8989 said:


> what if someone caught a pair, used them as breeders and made every attempt to repopulate their area. could this be a possible short term awnser to the decreaseing numbers of them?


Put simply no its not !

Food, shelter, hibernacula. micro climate, possbile threats and so on!


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

Conservation is a tough job that takes an enormous amount of planning.
To give you an example:

Nile crocodiles were endangered in South Africa due to poaching for their skins. Crocodile farms were introduced, and plainly put, are there for the sole purpose of supplying crocodiles for slaughter. Re-introduction would not have worked here because poaching was the problem. Because the skins and meat are now relatively easy to come by, there is no market for poachers anymore, giving the existing populations a chance to recover.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Given the size of other countrys, habitats and home ranges..The UK is reletively small. It really pee's me off to say the least when some design and building company tears up yet more ground, destroys more habitat to build appartments and accomodation etc to support the imigrants!

Its the wildlife and natural ecosystems which suffer big time, especially our reptiles. As a whole, we don't have many native species of reptiles, and to see them being pushed further and further to the brink really ticks me off, and its really infuriating to think that years down the line, if nothing is done to preserve these animals and protect them, you may never see a wild Adder again!

As said above by Al I think, I am totally against catching wild British adders to keep them as WC's in a collection as it puts them even closer to the brink of extinction. Things need to be done now to ensure their conservation so as future generations including current one's can see them in their natural domain within years to come.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

mad martin said:


> Conservation is a tough job that takes an enormous amount of planning.
> To give you an example:
> 
> Nile crocodiles were endangered in South Africa due to poaching for their skins. Crocodile farms were introduced, and plainly put, are there for the sole purpose of supplying crocodiles for slaughter. Re-introduction would not have worked here because poaching was the problem. Because the skins and meat are now relatively easy to come by, there is no market for poachers anymore, giving the existing populations a chance to recover.


 
That was a similar solution to the Australian Salties wasn't it?


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## kettykev (May 15, 2009)

I wonder where all these houses for immigrants are being built?
What do you think was originally on the site of your house?
James have you seen an Adder yet or much of the British herpetofauna?


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

They are building new ammodation all the time. People have to live somewhere. I take it into concideration if it wasn't for this, then I wouldn't have a house built. But pointless work and habitat destriction pees me off.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

kettykev said:


> I wonder where all these houses for immigrants are being built?
> What do you think was originally on the site of your house?
> James have you seen an Adder yet or much of the British herpetofauna?


And yes, as said previously I used to keep tadpoles in a fishtank when I was very young from the neighbours pond, and I see plenty of frogs etc when I am out fishing during the summer. and I have seen quite a few grass snakes and I saw an adder a year ago in Dorset that some folks had found. I was on holiday with the family and only stopped for the loo, and a few guys had came out with an adder on the hook taking photographs.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

craig8989 said:


> what if someone caught a pair, used them as breeders and made every attempt to repopulate their area. could this be a possible short term awnser to the decreaseing numbers of them?


 
Nooooo! If you catch and keep then breed any indigenous wildlife it is then illegal to release the offspring back into the wild. Plus, unless you have access to the prey items that the local population are feeding on, you will be disadvantaging the offspring as they'll find it difficult to get hold of F/T pinkies!


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

stuartdouglas said:


> Nooooo! If you catch and keep then breed any indigenous wildlife it is then illegal to release the offspring back into the wild. Plus, unless you have access to the prey items that the local population are feeding on, you will be disadvantaging the offspring as they'll find it difficult to get hold of F/T pinkies!


In the wild, what do hatchling/baby/neonate snakes feed on? is it insects or if they get lucky, find a rats or mouse nest and eat the babies?


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

AFAIK, baby snakes eat young amphibians, insects, invertebrates etc


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## kenneally1 (Feb 17, 2009)

Seeing the vermilion eyes of an adder as they are basking in the sunlight, is truly, something remarkable to behold!


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

kenneally1 said:


> Seeing the vermilion eyes of an adder as they are basking in the sunlight, is truly, something remarkable to behold!


This will be what you mean!


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## kenneally1 (Feb 17, 2009)

slippery42 said:


> This will be what you mean!
> 
> image


 
That would be it! Once seen never forgotten.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

slippery42 said:


> This will be what you mean!
> 
> image


 
Outstanding photo Graeme.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

stuartdouglas said:


> AFAIK, baby snakes eat young amphibians, insects, invertebrates etc


 
Ahh right cool.

Cheers!


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