# decline of british songbirds



## bassy 1019 (Sep 26, 2006)

i think cats are the answer, killing 53 million song birds each year. yet we are in abundance with rats. so why are the cats not eating the rats? would love to hear some views on this please.:devil:


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

bassy 1019 said:


> i think cats are the answer, killing 53 million song birds each year. yet we are in abundance with rats. so why are the cats not eating the rats? would love to hear some views on this please.:devil:


What about the rats that eat songbirds???? :whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

You seem to be enjoying starting such an emotive argument... But to each their own.

None of my cats are allowed out now (and not because I am worried about them killing songbirds... more worried about people like you harming them), but when our old cat roamed the neighborhood, he rarely had a bird... But brought home LOTS of rodents (rats included).


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

My cat has only ever brought 1 bird home in the 10 years i have owned him. Also my feral cats i have on the farm only catch rabbits, moles and rodents.

Also i have seen numerous dogs catch birds does that mean we should get rid of them also?????


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Amalthea said:


> You seem to be enjoying starting such an emotive argument... But to each their own.
> 
> None of my cats are allowed out now (and not because I am worried about them killing songbirds... more worried about people like you harming them), but when our old cat roamed the neighborhood, he rarely had a bird... But brought home LOTS of rodents (rats included).



Same here my cat, and any future cats will all be house cats from now on, due to prats who would harm them, rather than trying to understand the bigger picture.

My cats did bring the occasional bird home over the years, but the majority of what they brought home were mice and rats.


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## bassy 1019 (Sep 26, 2006)

rats that eat songbirds? how many do they eat? its not 53 million is it? no animal in the uk kills as many songbirds as cats. dogs eating songbirds? r u stupied? as 4 the other answers i have read, my cat never eats birds, or they have only caught i bird in ten years. u r all jokers, do u follow ur cat around 24 hours a day? no u dont how can u keep tabs on him then. the silly comments about my cat dont do this. he only eats rats. wake up all of you, cats r killers.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

I never said my cat only ate rats... I said he MOSTLY ate rodents.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

bassy 1019 said:


> wake up all of you, cats r killers.


The only "killers" I see are humans. Animals just do what comes to them instinctually... They don't wake up in the morning and think to themselves "I'm going to murder 12 pretty little song birds today". Only people go about planning things. All carnivorous animals kill things. Get over yourself.


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## sandmatt (Oct 25, 2008)

Leave it be... this is only going to start more arguments.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

bassy 1019 said:


> i think cats are the answer, killing 53 million song birds each year. yet we are in abundance with rats. so why are the cats not eating the rats? would love to hear some views on this please.:devil:


I'm fully of the opinion that cats are not the worst effect on songbirds.

Much more problematic is the destruction of habitat (you go cutting your hedge, you're disturbing nests) and people using pesticides on their gardens that weaken the birds. Stop poisoning the birds and maybe the cats won't catch them as easily.

I have one cat who has dragged in juvenile starlings and other relatively weak birds; my other cat is a mouse and rat specialist.


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## sandmatt (Oct 25, 2008)

Our cat used to bring birds home all the time. We put a bright silver collar on her with a bell, thus she hasnt bought any home since..


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## ipsilon (Oct 27, 2007)

bassy 1019 said:


> dogs eating songbirds? r u stupied?


Yes, clearly "stupied".


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

bassy 1019 said:


> i think cats are the answer, killing 53 million song birds each year. yet we are in abundance with rats. so why are the cats not eating the rats? would love to hear some views on this please.:devil:


But again like i said the mink is now just in the place of the polecat & otter.So wildlife has evoled with such a speices.Again the scottish wild cat USE to be found though out the UK.So once again are wildlife has evoled with a cat speices and know the deal.There are meny,meny factors for song bird decline and once again it us-(humans).Wildlife unfriendly farms is the number one reason not cats.Wildlife unfriendly farms take there food and there nesting sites.Coz hedgerows are not what they was.Farm are far to neat and clinical these days just how humans like it.Wheather is a nother factor birds species are staying put in countrys.Or by passing places they use to go all together.


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## Nemesis027 (Jan 11, 2008)

ipsilon said:


> Yes, clearly "stupied".


SSSSOO you took pictures of it....LOL, Christ you people are strange.

Did the dog climb up a tree and grab it


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## bassy 1019 (Sep 26, 2006)

*birds*

amalthea,4 ur info rats r rodents. all carnivious animals kill things, so how come u never came to the rescue of the other thread about mink? as soon as some body says some think about ur presious cats, every body is up in arms, r cats native to the uk? no they r a foreign species. ipsilon as 4 the pic, that dog did not catch that bird, look how old he is, no way, he came across it. nice try.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

I am not stupid. I know rats are rodents. But it's also not the ONLY rodent. By saying "rodent", do you think maybe I was using a broader term, because it wasn't only rats he brought home? Hmm... The mink thread is just as bad. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think any animal can be held accountable for it's actions.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

And to be honest, even if cats DO kill some songbirds, I really honestly do think it's how humans manage land that causes the most damage.


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## Nemesis027 (Jan 11, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> And to be honest, even if cats DO kill some songbirds, I really honestly do think it's how humans manage land that causes the most damage.


and don't forget those tree climbing dogs...


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## ipsilon (Oct 27, 2007)

Yeah, I took a lot of photos of the dog that day. I often do this because he's a family pet and I like to have photographs of the family pets. It's no worse than people taking photos of their snake eating and there's nothing strange about it! It so happened that he was so chuffed with his bird that he didn't put it down all day - it went everywhere with him. 

What can you tell about the age of the dog from two blurry pictures anyway? 

As for this "did the dog climb up the tree and kill it" nonsense, are you seriously trying to say that birds never leave trees and forage around on the ground? Don't be ridiculous. You just don't want to admit that a dog could catch and kill a bird when it is in fact entirely possible for that to happen.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

And here's another little tidbit of info for you... Since you say that my cat MUST have decimated the local wildlife, I bet you'd be surprised to here that since he's been gone, the number of birds people have been getting in their gardens around here has dwindled to nearly nothing. No, I'm not suggesting that Chester's presence made the birds hang around (I figured I should include that, since you seem to want to question my intelligence), but it must be something else entirely since Chester was the THE tom cat of the area. Now, hmm... What COULD it be?


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## bassy 1019 (Sep 26, 2006)

*cats*

yes it may be true about the way we farm nowadays. i agree with you. but i still think there r far to many cats, also many other people in other lands, malta for example shoot song birds for food. what a waste. may be they could start to shoot cats, there is more meat on them, and they would not have to shoot as many!:2thumb:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Amalthea said:


> (and not because I am worried about them killing songbirds... more worried about people like you harming them),


Wow, whilst I dont agree with the way this argument is being put by the OP, I dont think it helps to resort to insults either. :gasp:

Is anyone who doesn't believe in straying animals one of these people you protect your cat from? Because I dont agree with letting animals stray, but you dont need to protect your cat from me. More like you need to protect your cat from traffic, FIV, feline leukaemia, stray dogs, cat flu, etc.

They're much more likely to kill a straying cat than someone who disagrees with you.

Crikey.


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## Nemesis027 (Jan 11, 2008)

ipsilon said:


> Yeah, I took a lot of photos of the dog that day. I often do this because he's a family pet and I like to have photographs of the family pets. It's no worse than people taking photos of their snake eating and there's nothing strange about it! It so happened that he was so chuffed with his bird that he didn't put it down all day - it went everywhere with him.
> 
> What can you tell about the age of the dog from two blurry pictures anyway?
> 
> ...


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## ipsilon (Oct 27, 2007)

You're hilarious, since you know exactly...erm...nothing about the dog in the pictures except his type and colour.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> Wow, whilst I dont agree with the way this argument is being put by the OP, I dont think it helps to resort to insults either. :gasp:
> 
> Is anyone who doesn't believe in straying animals one of these people you protect your cat from? Because I dont agree with letting animals stray, but you dont need to protect your cat from me. More like you need to protect your cat from traffic, FIV, feline leukaemia, stray dogs, cat flu, etc.
> 
> ...


No, because in another thread, the OP was saying he'd shoot any cat he saw on his land. My Chester used to spend his time in the chicken pens behind our house and catch the rats there... The owner of the chickens loved him because of it, but when he went into hospital some neighborhood kids and their friends were checking on the chickens every day. One of the friends decided Chester shouldn't be there (even though he had a collar, bell, and tag on) and instead of speaking to anybody who actually knew him, he shot and killed him. It was witnessed by our neighbors who have never seen the "man" since or before. And he took Chester's body with him. That is why I said what I did. If the OP never said anything about shooting the cats he sees, it never would have crossed my mind that he would be one of those people.


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## sandmatt (Oct 25, 2008)

My grandparents dogs kill blackbirds almost weekly... as Blackbirds spend ALOT of time on the lawn, and believe me dogs have killed them just as vicously as any other animal, usually ripping the wings and legs off before killing em. and cats kill alot of birds too... just dont hate them for it.. its what they do naturally.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

*Taken off the RSPB website*

Advice > Gardening > Unwanted garden visitors > Cats and garden birds >
# Are cats causing bird declines?
*Are cats causing bird declines?*









Are cats causing bird declines?
Estimates of how many creatures are killed by cats each year vary significantly.
The most recent figures are from the Mammal Society, which estimates that the UK's cats catch up to 275 million prey items a year, of which 55 million are birds. This is the number of prey items that were known to have been caught; we don't know how many more the cats caught, but didn't bring home, or how many escaped but subsequently died.
The most frequently caught birds, according to the Mammal Society, are probably (in order) house sparrows, blue tits, blackbirds and starlings.
*No evidence*

Despite the large numbers of birds killed, there is no scientific evidence that predation by cats in gardens is having any impact on bird populations UK-wide. This may be surprising, but many millions of birds die naturally every year, mainly through starvation, disease, or other forms of predation. There is evidence that cats tend to take weak or sickly birds.
It is likely that most of the birds killed by cats would have died anyway from other causes before the next breeding season
We also know that of the millions of baby birds hatched each year, most will die before they reach breeding age. This is also quite natural, and each pair needs only to rear two young that survive to breeding age to replace themselves and maintain the population.
It is likely that most of the birds killed by cats would have died anyway from other causes before the next breeding season, so cats are unlikely to have a major impact on populations. If their predation was additional to these other causes of mortality, this might have a serious impact on bird populations.
Those bird species that have undergone the most serious population declines in the UK (such as skylarks, tree sparrows and corn buntings) rarely encounter cats, so cats cannot be causing their declines. Research shows that these declines are usually caused by habitat change or loss, particularly on farmland.
*Gardens: important habitat*

Populations of species that are most abundant in gardens tend to be increasing, despite the presence of cats. Blue tits, for example, the second most frequently caught birds, have increased by over a quarter across the UK since 1966. Of the birds most frequently caught by cats in gardens, only two (house sparrow and starling) have shown declines in breeding population across a range of habitats during the last six years.
Gardens may provide a breeding habitat for at least 20% of the UK populations of house sparrows, starlings, greenfinches, blackbirds and song thrushes four of which are declining across the UK. For this reason it would be prudent to try to reduce cat predation, as, although it is not causing the declines, some of these species are already under pressure.
Cat predation can be a problem where housing is next to scarce habitats such as heathland, and could potentially be most damaging to species with a restricted range (such as cirl buntings) or species dependent on a fragmented habitat (such as Dartford warblers on heathland).


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Another good reason to keep your cats in, perhaps? :whistling2:

If we let our dogs roam and poo in everyone's gardens, dig up our plants and kill our wildlife, we'd have them taken off us. It should be the same for cats, IMO.

Sadly I dont have Sky the cat hater any more - she used to get rid of any cats coming to our garden (when I say "get rid", I mean chased away - sometimes a close call though!). I had no intention of discouraging her, I gave cats a fair warning by checking and chasing them myself - if they were thick enough to stay, then that was their owner's problem, not mine. Blu however doesn't do this job for me, so it's back to square one - pass the bucket of water please!


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## bassy 1019 (Sep 26, 2006)

*pussy*

that dog that can climb trees and catch birds, boy i like to see it, he is an old dog, u can tell by his face, the grey on him, who u trying to kid.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

One of the reason my current cats do not go out. They are strctly house cats. But the fact of the matter is Chester was shot and killed in a place he spent every day in, where he was fed, loved, watered, and welcomed. So how was he to know that one specific day he was not welcome?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Cats and the law
*Domestic cats are protected by law and it is an offence to trap, injure or kill them.* 

The welfare of cats must not be ignored. Remember that cats, even if they are unwelcome in your garden, may be someone's much-loved pets, perhaps of a child or elderly person living alone. 

Some people have called for legislation introduced to curb the freedom with which cats are allowed to roam. While we understand why people feel this way, we are not able to urge the government to introduce such legislation, as we have no scientific evidence of the impact of cat predation on bird populations that is strong enough to support such a call. 


Information provided by Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (RSPB): The RSPB is not an animal welfare organisation, but a wildlife conservation organisation concerned with populations of all wild birds and other wildlife. The RSPB is, however, aware of people's feelings about this issue, and takes their concerns seriously. The RSPCA and Scottish SPCA, which are primarily concerned with animal welfare and not conservation, support the advice in this article.


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## ipsilon (Oct 27, 2007)

Jeez, this is ridiculous. How old is he then bassy, oh fount of all "knowledge"?


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## bassy 1019 (Sep 26, 2006)

*pussy*

lisa good on you 4 sticking to ur guns, big up. the rspb reads a lot of crap, 55 million thats a lot of birds that would still be flying around, no wonder i have no birds left on my bird table.


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## bassy 1019 (Sep 26, 2006)

older and more wiser than u:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## ipsilon (Oct 27, 2007)

So in other words you don't want to say how old you think he is?


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Cats do kill birds and other small creatures, frogs etc but also rats, squirrels, stoats, weasels they all love bird eggs. Fewer nesting places,insecticides. Don't birds like crows, jayes etc take eggs too so It's not all down to the cat but certainly quite a bit is.
A bell is supposed to help warn the birds.
cheers arthur.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Maybe the birds just dont like you that would make sense


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Like I said, earlier in this thread... There are a hell of a lot fewer birds in this area SINCE Chester's been gone and he was THE neighborhood cat. Explain that one, since you are obviously the only one of us who knows where the birds have gone.


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## bassy 1019 (Sep 26, 2006)

who said i knew where all the birds have gone? i said cats kill millions each year, birds migrate to. i expect people in ur area have not been feeding the birds, also maybe every body in ur street has a pet cat now? who nos? i dont no all the answers, but i no of one, cats kill songbirds. the eradication of birds is mainly due to cats, other pests take their share, rats, squirrels, weasels, stoats, have even seen a heron eating ducklings. its a bit of every thing, but the main culprit is the cat. people dont like the truth.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

bassy 1019 said:


> who said i knew where all the birds have gone? i said cats kill millions each year, birds migrate to. i expect people in ur area have not been feeding the birds, also maybe every body in ur street has a pet cat now? who nos? i dont no all the answers, but i no of one, cats kill songbirds. the eradication of birds is mainly due to cats, other pests take their share, rats, squirrels, weasels, stoats, have even seen a heron eating ducklings. its a bit of every thing, but the main culprit is the cat. *people dont like the truth.*




*This should be changed to Bassy doesnt like the truth*


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## bassy 1019 (Sep 26, 2006)

:bash:shell 195 dont like the truth, u like cats i hate them, so leave it at that


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## ferretman (May 11, 2008)

Your just a t***** who like's to wind people up so why don't you leave it at that.


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## bassy 1019 (Sep 26, 2006)

come again ferret boy


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

A humorous take on cats as predators.

The Alternative Cat Predation Survey

cheers arthur


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## ferretman (May 11, 2008)

Who'z ferretboy?


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## HS (Mar 19, 2008)

My cat doesn't bother with songbirds, she's too busy chasing dogs.
Her reason for chasing them? because they come into my house if the front door is open. They also shit on my front lawn.
I live opposite a park and the owners are too dumb to realise when they are out of the park and they continue to let their dogs roam all over the gardens and paths.
So far she has chased a couple of labradors and a doberman. Although one poor labrador gets her attention regularly and that one is walked on a lead. I think the owner is filing for the cat to get an ASBO.:lol2:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

arthur cooke said:


> A humorous take on cats as predators.
> 
> The Alternative Cat Predation Survey
> 
> cheers arthur


 
I love that :2thumb:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

bassy 1019 said:


> :bash:shell 195 dont like the truth, u like cats i hate them, so leave it at that


 

I always like the last word when Im right:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Here is a link that disputes that cats are responsible for the disappearing song birds.

Pet Advisory Committee
cheers arthur.


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## bassy 1019 (Sep 26, 2006)

sorry but u not right, 55 million birds.:devil: taken by cats. some thing needs to be done, cats should be kept in day time, to let birds feed freely. let cats out at night time, only rats to kill then:flrt:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

bassy 1019 said:


> sorry but u not right, 55 million birds.:devil: taken by cats. some thing needs to be done, cats should be kept in day time, to let birds feed freely. let cats out at night time, only rats to kill then:flrt:


 
Exactly where are you getting your facts from?


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

in all the time i have owned cats, they have killed hmm probably 10 or so max.. nout if you ask me.


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## ferretman (May 11, 2008)

shell i wouldnt replie to this waste of space all he talks is s***


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

bassy 1019 said:


> that dog that can climb trees and catch birds, boy i like to see it, he is an old dog, u can tell by his face, the grey on him, who u trying to kid.


I've known of dogs who hunted birds. We used to foster a grey who went on to a new home and ate the chicks out of the nests in their hedging.

All animals have an impact on their surroundings - it's our job to make sure it's as little as possible.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

The research that produced that figure is flawed, because the sample was too small, it's a bit like taking the population of a village and saying that it represents all people in the world.
In America they reckon that 33% of cats are indoor cats, if the British figures were near the same, that decimates the figure of 55 million. What about old cats that are too old and slow to catch birds. What about cats that are over weight and can't catch birds. What percentage of the birds caught by cats that were old, ill or injured. the researchers never saw any of the animals killed, so they have no Idea. There were no post mortems as far as I'm aware.
I think that most scientists would say that it is a combination of many things.
cheers arthur.


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## bassy 1019 (Sep 26, 2006)

no i talk the truth, only when u had the thread bout mink, every body said wot they wanted, kill them ect, when i talk about cats killing many songbirds every body is up in arms, y is this. ferret man i dont speak s**t. freekey greekey u was a bit out of line. but i wil take it on board, if i had said that i would be banned, u never got nothing 4 ur out burst. thats life. i will not be comenting no more on this subject, i no wot i believe to be the truth, it seems there is no freedom of speech, even on here. no wonder every body is leaving the uk for other lands.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

bassy 1019 said:


> no i talk the truth, only when u had the thread bout mink, every body said wot they wanted, kill them ect, when i talk about cats killing many songbirds every body is up in arms, y is this. ferret man i dont speak s**t. freekey greekey u was a bit out of line. but i wil take it on board, if i had said that i would be banned, u never got nothing 4 ur out burst. thats life. i will not be comenting no more on this subject, i no wot i believe to be the truth, it seems there is no freedom of speech, even on here. no wonder every body is leaving the uk for other lands.


how do you know nothing happened to me, can you see my many infractions? 
i did not say kill mink, i wouldnt. I dont kill anything and i dont agree to killing anthing i.e wood pidgien, foxes , rabbits and so on.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

bassy 1019 said:


> cats should be kept in day time, to let birds feed freely. let cats out at night time.


The rule is cat to be let out during the mid of day.And kept indoors at night.Coz dawn and dusk is the main time when bird are taken.Cats are NOT a new species to are birds.Before domestic/feral cats the Europian wild cat was found throw out the UK but now only found in scotland.UK birds know the cat species.UK birds don't just sit there to be eaten.Like what happen in New zealand.New zealand birds never met a cat so didn't try to get away.

It's humans that are responsible for the high bird decline.Cats mainly take young birds.But to get young birds in the first place they need some where to nest.And coz how house's are biuld today they are not bird nesting friendly.The main bird species that's drop in recant times is the starlings and the house sparrow.And that coz house's today don't offer nesting coz we board up ever hole.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

bassy 1019 said:


> i think cats are the answer, killing 53 million song birds each year. yet we are in abundance with rats. so why are the cats not eating the rats? would love to hear some views on this please.:devil:



Heres my view on this thread....

Load of b:censor:x, you seeem to be treating this forum as your playground, this thread is of no use.

You really are scum. 

Toodles cupcake. :bash:


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## sizedoesn'tmatter (Jan 24, 2009)

I don't want to touch this 'discussion' with a ten foot pole! 

However I would like to add that cat owners can help cut the number of birds caught by putting a bell on their cats collar if they will accept it. 

Just remember that rain will deaden the sound of the bell allowing the cat to sneak up on birds. 

Cats probably account for a small percentage of bird loss but it doesn't hurt to help cut the losses wherever we can.


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## Nemesis027 (Jan 11, 2008)

ferretman said:


> Who'z ferretboy?


:whistling2:


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## Nemesis027 (Jan 11, 2008)

Amalthea said:


> Like I said, earlier in this thread... There are a hell of a lot fewer birds in this area SINCE Chester's been gone and he was THE neighborhood cat. Explain that one, since you are obviously the only one of us who knows where the birds have gone.


He only has your word for it tho...Most of the arguments in this thread by both sides aren't based on any fact or evidence. Plus a lot of it is by cat lovers and keepers who's argument is more likely to be a biased one.

your all bloody mad..but funny as hell


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Our loose sanctuary cats are locked up at night and let out after 10 am.During nesting season they are confined to the play area to make sure the fledglings have a chance


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

I think I'm gonna stop this farce here.


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