# attention stop the ban before its too late!!!



## gartergoon (Feb 2, 2011)

this is a copy and paste from a sticky in snakes , could do with as many people signing on the petition :2thumb: heres the info theres a link in my sig for the petition 
thankyou guys 

elow is a copied post from Chris Newman (chairman of the FBH) and a link to the original thread.

Please NO Negativity here. All Exotic Animal/invert keepers are in serious threat of loosing their rights....... and so are keen Gardeners.......

Kindest regards Dean Whitbread..... 

Vice Chairman of ERAC (Essex Reptile and Amphibian Club) And Member of IAC (Invicter Arachnid Club)


Threat to Reptile Keeping (split from Al's thread) - Page 4 - CaptiveBred Reptile Forums, Reptile Classified, Forum

Below is some information I have circulated to as many interested groups as I can, if other wish to circulate this information or post it on other forums please feel free to do so. 



Invasive Non-native Species Policy Discussions within the European Union

Dear all,

Discussions and preliminary consultations commenced midway through 2010 on the development of an EU policy on the issue of invasive or potentially invasive non-native (or alien) species – both plant and animal but from here onwards this summary will concentrate on animal-related concerns. Previous discussions had taken place between 2005-2010 but have become a lot more important because of the European
Union’s stated intent to enact some form of legislation on the issue as part of their commitments on biodiversity. A consultation – not well publicised – took place over the summer of 2010 and according to EU officials most respondents were British (both from the pro-keeping and pro-trade side and from the animal protectionist & animal rights side of the argument).

A stakeholder consultation meeting took place on 3rd September with attendance dominated by those opposed to animal-keeping and trade in animals. Although the legislation – likely to be either an EU Directive or Regulation – will consider aspects such as who pays for non-native species becoming established and how to eliminate or control species that have become invasive the biggest concern for animal keepers and animal traders is the area that will be covered by the Prevention Working Group.

The heavy area of dispute - not surprisingly – will be focused on whether the legislation should have white or black lists for import and for home possession/trade. Those opposed to animal keeping have strongly demanded the use of very restricted white lists (of species ‘proven’ by risk assessment not to present a potential invasive
species problem) with everything else banned. Those few on the Working Group supportive of animal keeping and trade have argued strongly in favour of a limited and focused black list that would require exemptions or licensing to import/keep/trade and everything else to be kept and traded.

It is clear that at least some Member States support the idea of the use of white lists which, if implimented, would be a disaster for those keeping and/or trading in non-native species. There are also several representatives of Member States who have indicated no great enthusiasm for white lists.

The other main threat – irrespective of whether white or black lists are used – is the EU’s consideration of whether or not the same lists should be used across all EU Member States or whether there could be separate lists by country or by biogeographic area. Having a single list for the entire EU would present keepers and traders with immense problems since clearly many more species could potentially become established in say the Canary Islands or Cyprus than could in Germany
or Finland. Hence a single unified list could easily see the prohibition of a species like the Corn Snake across all EU countries because it might be potentially invasive in southern European areas. 

The pro-keeping side of the equation have secured two positions on the Prevention Working Group but it is very important that keepers organizations from countries other than the UK start to actively lobby their Governments (the animal rights groups in several EU Member States were represented at the 3rd September consultation meeting but, noticeably, not the representatives of the equivalent animal-keeping
organizations).

DG-Environment on behalf of the European Commission expects to pull-together the recommendation and option documents from the three Working Groups in the summer of 2011. The consolidated document will then be put out for public comment and any revisions made with the intent of a final recommended document to be presented to the European Commission and Council of Ministers in late 2011 with legislation being enacted sometime in 2012.

This is in my view the single greatest threat to the keeping of reptiles and amphibians within the European Union that has ever emerged. Unless we, keepers, participate and represent our interests we face a very uncertain future!

Regards,

Chris Newman
Federation of British Herpetologists
Reptile & Exotic Pet Trade association

Email: [email protected]
Tel: 0044 (0) 23 8044 0999
Mobile 0044 (0) 7897 692060


Development of an EU Strategy on Invasive Alien Species:
European Commission - Environment - Nature & Biodiversity


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Not interested.


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## gartergoon (Feb 2, 2011)

why ?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Local wildlife is more important than people being able to keep pets.


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## gartergoon (Feb 2, 2011)

its down to the right people keeping them that stops them being released into the wild surely a license to keep would be a better route then a full on ban ?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

gartergoon said:


> its down to the right people keeping them that stops them being released into the wild surely a license to keep would be a better route then a full on ban ?


Only responsible keepers would get a license. I thought the ban only applied to European species anyway?


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## gartergoon (Feb 2, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Only responsible keepers would get a license. I thought the ban only applied to European species anyway?



ssthiso wrote this below i think its a clearer point of what can happen :2thumb:

 Ssthisto








Read. Think. THEN write.















[/URL] Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Huddersfield, West Yorks
Posts: 21,120 
Blog Entries: 2










Quote:
Originally Posted by *gartergoon*  
_if they put a limit on thats fantastic , why an earth should anyone be allowed to take 1000's of reptiles from the wild ?_

This legislation is NOTHING to do with taking animals from the wild.

It's about saying "you cannot buy, sell or trade animals/plants of XYZ species, whether they're captive bred or not, within the EU."

And it's based on whether they're potentially *invasive* species that could threaten wild populations.

For example:

*Worst case scenario* is that we get an EU-wide single "whitelist" of species you're allowed to buy or sell, and species that aren't on that list cannot be bought or sold any more. If they decide that corn snakes and garter snakes - which are fairly hardy and *could* potentially survive and breed in certain areas of the EU - are possibly invasive, they won't be put onto the whitelist. This would have the following results:

1. If they're not on the white list, you can't buy any more.
Pet shops won't stock them because they can't buy them (from breeders or wholesalers). The ones that are currently in the shops might get a "pass" to be sold until they're gone, but once they're not in stock, they won't come back.

2. If you breed a litter (or clutch) you can't SELL them.
Pet shops won't be able to buy your babies from you - and you won't be legally allowed to sell those babies either. Trades would be out as well - any babies you bred would have to stay with you for life. 

At that rate, nobody will breed - if you can't sell 'em and you didn't intend to keep the whole clutch from day 1, you're not likely to want to make more mouths to feed and house for a potential 20+ year lifespan. The ones that are in people's homes as of 2012 when the legislation passes will be the last ones that anyone gets, and as they gradually grow old and die, the species will disappear from the hobby in the EU. They don't need to ban people from _keeping _them... just make it impossible to buy, sell or breed.


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## berksmike (Jan 2, 2008)

The ban would apply to any non native species that could be established if released into the wide.
One of the concerns is that it does not refer to individual countries but the entire Eu so it has been suggested that the ban could extend to species that could establish anywhere in the EU. This does have implications as a large number of species could easily establish in the south eastern borders of Europe which have much hotter conditions


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

i agree completely with morg look what escaped clawed frogs(i think?)have done to amphibian species all over the world by carrying chytrid! or what escaped pets released from out hobby have done to the everglades(admittedly not in the eu) it’s a problem that needs addressing and its unbelievably selfish to put the need to keep pet exotics over biodiversity 

frankly id rather have to go and get a license like dwa to keep my frogs as it would prevent the countless idiots who don’t have a clue from keeping them benefits the hobby the animals and the environment immensely i doubt they would say right species a,b,c are banned no questions more likely a license would be needed provided reasonable conditions are placed that make it easily avaialbe to responsible keepers 

this isn’t being done to spite us exotics keepers its being done because there is a real problem or potential problem and it needs addressing before another environmental catastrophe. also mid recession they are not going to make a law that costs billions to enforce and puts hundreds of thousands of people into unemployment i mean ok so say corn snakes are black listed what happens to the millions of corn snakes all over the eu? its illegal to keep them the companies that made the equipment and breed the food have gone bust so we cant keep them anymore do they just all get euthanised and cause a huge outcry will the eu make a megazoo for them all?how many of these millions will be released into the wild by owners scared of being cought who dont want to see there loved pets euthanised?

there is no logic to having 1 list for all the eu but tons for having 1 per country so i cant see that happening


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

No problem with the worst case scenario. We should be applauding this move if we really care about wildlife.


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## LizardFTI (Dec 2, 2006)

My real issue with it is the sake that it applies to the whole EU rather than each country. An animal which could survive in spain should not be blacklisted in sweden since the climates are entirely different. Per country is a far better way forward. It would also extend to things like dogs, cats and birds too, rather than just reptile, amphibs.

I'd happily get a licence to keep if they introduced non native animals tho.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

sambridge15 said:


> i agree completely with morg look what escaped clawed frogs(i think?)have done to amphibian species all over the world by carrying chytrid! or what escaped pets released from out hobby have done to the everglades(admittedly not in the eu) it’s a problem that needs addressing and its unbelievably selfish to put the need to keep pet exotics over biodiversity
> 
> frankly id rather have to go and get a license like dwa to keep my frogs as it would prevent the countless idiots who don’t have a clue from keeping them benefits the hobby the animals and the environment immensely i doubt they would say right species a,b,c are banned no questions more likely a license would be needed provided reasonable conditions are placed that make it easily avaialbe to responsible keepers
> 
> this isn’t being done to spite us exotics keepers its being done because there is a real problem or potential problem and it needs addressing before another environmental catastrophe. also mid recession they are not going to make a law that costs billions to enforce and puts hundreds of thousands of people into unemployment i mean ok so say corn snakes are black listed what happens to the millions of corn snakes all over the eu? its illegal to keep them the companies that made the equipment and breed the food have gone bust so we cant keep them anymore do they just all get euthanised and cause a huge outcry will the eu make a megazoo for them all?how many of these millions will be released into the wild by owners scared of being cought who dont want to see there loved pets euthanised?


There will be not liscence like the DWA, if a white or balck list is brought in, just a simple ban. 

They may allow you to keep the animals you have and then simple say they cannot be traded and make it illigal to sell breed and or deal in the species. Which means you will be able to keep your corn snake for example, untill it dies and then there will be no more. If you bread them you wont be able to sell them, so you would have to keep all off spring. meaning that eventually all will die out in capativity. 

I am all for saving wildlife but this is not the way to do it. 

A large proportion of amphibians will be banned, all of the animals in morgans sig stand a high chance of being banned. This mean that once they die there will simply be no more in capativity. 

This is a shocking piece of leglislation that stand to bann the keeping of so many commonly kept animals simply because they stand a chance of surriving in the wild somewhere in the EU. If and animals can surrive anywhere from Spain to Scotland then it stands a high chance of being banned. There is also a risk to cat and dog species as well which people dont seem to grasp. 

Jay


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

ELZ1985 said:


> My real issue with it is the sake that it applies to the whole EU rather than each country. An animal which could survive in spain should not be blacklisted in sweden since the climates are entirely different. Per country is a far better way forward. It would also extend to things like dogs, cats and birds too, rather than just reptile, amphibs.
> 
> I'd happily get a licence to keep if they introduced non native animals tho.


I don't see why with rising climate it's really that much of a problem.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Spikebrit said:


> A large proportion of amphibians will be banned, all of the animals in morgans sig stand a high chance of being banned. This mean that once they die there will simply be no more in capativity.


No they don't. Dart frogs and a humidity loving boa couldn't survive European weather.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Morgan Freeman said:


> I don't see why with rising climate it's really that much of a problem.


it would mean the complete bannof keeping thousands of species or animal. This wil not only mean joe blogs cant keep a certain species, but will negativly effect our understanding of breading pattens, behavious and even breading programmes. There are so many implications of this leglisitation its unreal. 

I would like to see leglisltaion brought in to protect native species, but a blanket ban of any animal that can surrive in the wild, anywhere in europe is not the way to go. Liscensing of even coutry specific limitations is what is needed, a blanket ban will to so much harm to our understanding of animals, behaviours etc


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Morgan Freeman said:


> No they don't. Dart frogs and a humidity loving boa couldn't survive European weather.


Im affraid they could, there are certin neich areas in the EU that would mean that Dart frogs can certainly surrive.

Boas have been report to surrive in various habitats within the EU, southern france and Spain and both report boas surriving in the wild. There is a paper on this as well, i will link you later on, when i am home and can look up the link. 

So I am affraid all of you animals stand a chance of being on the list, this is a definate risk to all keepers and something we should all be worried about. 

The ban is a lot wider then people think, and this is the problem. Corn snakes, rat snakes, royals (maybe) all stand a high chance of being included. 

jay


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## gartergoon (Feb 2, 2011)

Spikebrit said:


> There will be not liscence like the DWA, if a white or balck list is brought in, just a simple ban.
> 
> They may allow you to keep the animals you have and then simple say they cannot be traded and make it illigal to sell breed and or deal in the species. Which means you will be able to keep your corn snake for example, untill it dies and then there will be no more. If you bread them you wont be able to sell them, so you would have to keep all off spring. meaning that eventually all will die out in capativity.
> 
> ...


well said


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

spikebrit i think your worrying to much about the extent if what your saying was true then the cost would be in the hundreds of millions a figure no eu government would be willing to pay... also where in the eu could a dart survive?


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## tom and tina (Oct 28, 2009)

Unfortunatly this is all because irresponsible keepers release non-native species into the wild. This does not take into account the people who really do care and look after what ever they have.
This will not be a ban on people releasing the animals. It will be penalising people who breed the animals, which will result in underground selling or trading.
What will people do when they get a clutch of 10+ boas and cant sell them. There will be more non-native animals released into the wild, because people wont have the space, time, money to keep them.
If it does come in to effect then i hope it will be all animals i.e hamsters, budgies. This hobby gets so much stick, and everyone looks at you as if your some sort of scrut, which is awful, but people already don't understand what goes into keeping these animals healthy.
People who love the hobby should not really be questioning this petition. I know there are reptiles released or escapee's, and the reports all are killer snake's blahh blahh. A parot gets released or a dog gets tied to a lamp post (and there are more of these each year than snakes or frogs etc.), and the reports are family pet found. Our snakes are our family pets, our frogs are our pride and joy and the mantids are a hobby.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

sambridge15 said:


> spikebrit i think your worrying to much about the extent if what your saying was true then the cost would be in the hundreds of millions a figure no eu government would be willing to pay... also where in the eu could a dart survive?


I may well be worrying as i stand a chance of loosing a lot of my collection, but hopefull Chris and others on the front line will fight enougth so this piece of pointless leglisltaion is taken back and re-throught through. 

Indeed the cost would be millions, but the leglisltaion is still there and has been discussed for the last 6 months, maybe 12, in Eu comittee meetings and is looking like it may well be coming into place to some degree. if the eu was thinking finicially they would not have even considered the leglislation, but as it is, it has currently been through various comittee meetings and discussions, so will be coming in. At the moment the anti's are shouting louder then the pro's. 

It is deffently somthing that will happen, there is no doubt about that, it is just to what extent the damage is done. Hopefully, at this point if we band together we can limit the damage done, as if a blanket ban comes in, well reptile keeping may well go down the plug hole. if enough people get together we can fight for leglisltaion that is actually worthwile and not a complete waste of time. 

its just like 10-15 years ago, whne the reptile hoppy was within hours of being banned in the UK. So many people had their head in the sand saying it wouldn't happen. it was only because a few people banded together and fought that it was saved and we are here today. 

Jay


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

sambridge15 said:


> spikebrit i think your worrying to much about the extent if what your saying was true then the cost would be in the hundreds of millions a figure no eu government would be willing to pay... also where in the eu could a dart survive?


How about the Northern part of Tenerife?Its pretty warm and humid there.It just depends how petty the Beaurocrats want to be.I wouldn`t think they would be a problem in reality but you only have to look at the British list to see how way out the politicians can be.They have the Italian Crested Newt and Clawed Toad on there but they are not really invasive yet they have left out the Wall Lizard which is more of a threat.


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## gartergoon (Feb 2, 2011)

At the moment the anti's are shouting louder then the pro's. <thats the worst thing about this !!!

but now iv been made aware i will be be fighting !!!! 
:devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:


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## gartergoon (Feb 2, 2011)

ill be working with intensely to try and stop this 
i cant understand why such a huge thing has not hit the media , :2thumb: we will have to pitch our side and make it public , make it huge, go big ! 
we need to stop this ban or propose a idea and re-enforce it like a license to keep them , also what if there was a limit of animals that could be exported ?
that would increase sells of cp bred and there wouldnt be as any , i mean an £8 cornsnake you are asking for the wrong type of people ... and yes they do import wc cornsnakes and wc gartersnakes ? WHY? 
even thought this is affecting our pets maybe hitting back with a solution of a license and a limit to exports with re-enforced numbers that could be something they would consider 

hit me back with ideas but im at work till 12pm


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

gartergoon said:


> ill be working with intensely to try and stop this
> i cant understand why such a huge thing has not hit the media , :2thumb: we will have to pitch our side and make it public , make it huge, go big !
> we need to stop this ban or propose a idea and re-enforce it like a license to keep them , also what if there was a limit of animals that could be exported ?
> that would increase sells of cp bred and there wouldnt be as any , i mean an £8 cornsnake you are asking for the wrong type of people ... and yes they do import wc cornsnakes and wc gartersnakes ? WHY?
> ...


I work with a lot of importers and have never seen anyone importing a Wc cornsnake in recent years. personally a slow trickly of WC cornsnakes and common animals are needed every so often as the new blood is needed. And at £8 for a cornsnake your being rippped off lol. Nomal corns from europe are less then £1 a piece. 

But this has absolulty nothing to do with WC or CB so i dont know why you brought that up. Most imports also bring in CF rather then WC as well, along with equal numbers of CB. Limiting imports and exports is deffently not the way to go as if not animals will end up so well inbred and unhealthy that its unreal. Thats ignoreing the fact that the range of species kept would be serverly limited. 

Anyway imports have absolutly nothing to do with this leglislation, I dont know whay people keep trying to mix the two together. It just confuses people. 


But i do agree it needs to go public, I think Chris and the FBH are working on that though.

jay


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

i am so against this ban! i mean its actually pathetic and has no actual point of being brought forward :/ as a lot of people said most of the animals that are kept in captivity wouldnt be able to survive in EU such as Dart Frogs and humdity dependent reptiles and amphibians :/ also why would the government allow this when they get a large number of money from VAT and Tax from the imports? lol 
and not being funny if any Herptile got out into the english countryside it wouldnt exactly live long would it with the extreme cold of our winters!! :/ lol 
If this Ban is going to happen then all the stupid big wigs at the EU clearly have no knowledge of animals and have heard only one side of the story.... our native wildlife isnt going to be endanger if a tiny Phantasmal Dart got out it would be the other way round lol Also if it was gonna happen why didnt it happen years ago when there was sightings of the Exmoor Beast? lol wouldnt that be a greater threat to our wildlife rather than a Garter or a Bearded Dragon? lol


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

JR.Exotics said:


> i am so against this ban! i mean its actually pathetic and has no actual point of being brought forward :/ as a lot of people said most of the animals that are kept in captivity wouldnt be able to survive in EU such as Dart Frogs and humdity dependent reptiles and amphibians :/ also why would the government allow this when they get a large number of money from VAT and Tax from the imports? lol
> and not being funny if any Herptile got out into the english countryside it wouldnt exactly live long would it with the extreme cold of our winters!! :/ lol
> If this Ban is going to happen then all the stupid big wigs at the EU clearly have no knowledge of animals and have heard only one side of the story.... our native wildlife isnt going to be endanger if a tiny Phantasmal Dart got out it would be the other way round lol Also if it was gonna happen why didnt it happen years ago when there was sightings of the Exmoor Beast? lol wouldnt that be a greater threat to our wildlife rather than a Garter or a Bearded Dragon? lol



I'll state the same points again. 

a) the leglislation is already in discussion in the EU. I.E. its alrady been proposed and is being discussed, so some sort of leglislation is likly to happend its just the extent that is being debated. 

b) *ANY* *reptile *that can *surrive *in the *EU, * Spain to Scotland and everything in between stands the chance of being banned. Depending on if White lists of Black lists are brought in. I.e if and Animals can surrive in Spain it will be banned here as well - this is one of the proposed ideas anyway there are others. 

c) correct the leglisltaion is being brought in by people that have limited knowledge of reptiles and the only information they have is from Antis because so many reptile keepers stick their head in the sand singing 'it wont happen' when it is alraedy being discussed. 

D) it has nothing to do with imports, why do people get these confused. 

e) Tax on reptiles and finicial gain doesnt seem to regester on the Eu or our own governemnt rader for som reason. As somone brought up early you only have you look at Sea fishing, revenue to the governemnt is hugh but they are currently bring in loads of leglisltaion agains hobby fishers. The governement makes more money from hobby sea fishers then they do from reptiles, as it is a bigger hobby. 

Some leglisitation will happen, but hopefully if all the reptile keepers can get together and shout louder then the antis (as we dont currently) and we get some big names the leglisltaion will be better organised rather then being a general blanket ban. 

jay


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Spikebrit said:


> it would mean the complete bannof keeping thousands of species or animal. This wil not only mean joe blogs cant keep a certain species, but will negativly effect our understanding of breading pattens, behavious and even breading programmes. There are so many implications of this leglisitation its unreal.
> 
> I would like to see leglisltaion brought in to protect native species, but a blanket ban of any animal that can surrive in the wild, anywhere in europe is not the way to go. Liscensing of even coutry specific limitations is what is needed, a blanket ban will to so much harm to our understanding of animals, behaviours etc


Why do you have a right to keep certain species of animals?

As far as I'm aware it's not private keepers that are learning about animal behaviours but zoos and experts in the field. To think private exotic keepers have any sort of positive effect is ridiculous.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Can we have some evidence shown in this thread please?


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Why do you have a right to keep certain species of animals?
> 
> As far as I'm aware it's not private keepers that are learning about animal behaviours but zoos and experts in the field. To think private exotic keepers have any sort of positive effect is ridiculous.


Really, i think thats a very nieve view to take. I work with various species that are difficult to keep/breed, and have complied and worked on various articles that are currently in the publication process along with working on various books as well. if i wasnt in the hobby and kept species i would not be able to add to knowledge. 

Example number two the crested gecko. If it wasnt for the crested gecko becoming a popular pet, after a few were taken into captivity of this assumed extenct species, and then becmoing so popular as a pet it is unlikly that there would be any left in capativity or else where especially not in current numbers, and now within a few years captive numbers have exploded. 

So im sorry but stating that the hobbisits doesnt have any positive effect on the exotic trade is a completly moot point. 

*Why do you have a right to keep certain species of animals?*


That exact same question caould be asked of anything, why do you have the right to have a Cat? dog? hamster? boa? frog? 

its a pointless questions so im not going to write an snwer for you, if you didnt want to keep pets you wouldnt be on this forum. 

Jay


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Can we have some evidence shown in this thread please?


What evidence would you like?

You have the report from Chris newman who was involved with the Eu meeting who happened to bring the proposed leglislation and its proposed impact to the reptile eye as its impact was not previously understood, origional thread can be found here: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...71751-invasive-non-native-species-policy.html there is also one on captive bred but i can link to that one. 

The eu website with the stated leglislation being discussed, as linked in the first post. If you read through the Eu website and the proposed leglislation then you can see the proposed plans, included the suggested option including blanket bans, white lists, black lists, country restrictions etc

European Commission - Environment - Nature & Biodiversity

I will post the article relating to Boas surriving in Spain and Southern france later tonight as stated.

if you read the threads in general chat that have been going on months, there is even more evidence being discussed and issued

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...71751-invasive-non-native-species-policy.html

there is also more detail discussed on capative bred, as Chis and over higher profile keepers seem to be more active there. 

Anything else you would like?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Will reply when I get home.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Spikebrit said:


> What evidence would you like?
> 
> You have the report from Chris newman who was involved with the Eu meeting who happened to bring the proposed leglislation and its proposed impact to the reptile eye as its impact was not previously understood, origional thread can be found here: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...71751-invasive-non-native-species-policy.html there is also one on captive bred but i can link to that one.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks. I have no need to go searching through threads that have been going on for months. The argument was brought over here, so those against the ban can provide the arguments.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Will reply when I get home.


No worries, I need to get back to work as well. I wont be around much later to reply so i wont be able to debate it too much with you. 

The Eu website and the threads on Capative bred are very interesting read. Hopefully the FBH and Chris will have enouth impact on the leglislation, that country specific restrictions are involved, which are a great way of protecting out natural wildlife and fauna and something i totally support rather then a blanket ban. 

Also there are hundreds of plant species bans also proposed. 

The leglislation has so many holes its unreal, i dont think untill recently people realised the possiable impact that it can have if the worst case got though. I'll happly admit, its not untill recently (last few months) that i fully understood the damage the worst case example could do. 

Anyway fingers croseed the Eu see the flaws in this and propose something with more thought behind it. 

Jay


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Thanks. I have no need to go searching through threads that have been going on for months. The argument was brought over here, so those against the ban can provide the arguments.


No worries, enjoy the reading its very interesting even if you are pro/against.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Spikebrit said:


> I'll state the same points again.
> 
> a) the leglislation is already in discussion in the EU. I.E. its alrady been proposed and is being discussed, so some sort of leglislation is likly to happend its just the extent that is being debated.
> 
> ...


out of interest where are you getting the information from then?? lol cos i have looked through the internet the past hour and so have all of my friends that keep exotics and most of which including myself have been doing it for all our lives and we can find nothing on this on the internet :/ it wont happen the government wont let this for many reasons... including the fact of where are these animals going to go if the ban does get brought forward?! lol are they going to take away most species and put them all down even the endangered species which may only be found in captivity? release them to the wild even though they wouldnt be able to defend themselves or even find food? think about it logically it would never be brought forward for so many reason even if it is being discussed! 
If it is going to happen then of course i am totally against this but it wont i heard of a ban like this years ago and guess what it............ never happened! :/ so what if a single species can survive in climate in Spain or Malta, it still needs to know how to defend itself and find food when it has probably been captive all its life or CB, it wouldnt know how to look after itself. 
Is this Information found on DEFRA or something cos i want to see the link so i can read the info from that too lol :] but sign me up


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

I have just sen the links you have put up so i will read them! lol :] cheers


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Plant species!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok will have a read, may change my mind you never know.


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## jme2049 (Jan 11, 2008)

JR.Exotics said:


> it wont happen the government wont let this for many reasons... including the fact of where are these animals going to go if the ban does get brought forward?! lol are they going to take away most species and put them all down even the endangered species which may only be found in captivity? release them to the wild even though they wouldnt be able to defend themselves or even find food? think about it logically it would never be brought forward for so many reason even if it is being discussed!



They'd be incinerated of course:gasp:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

JR.Exotics said:


> out of interest where are you getting the information from then?? lol cos i have looked through the internet the past hour and so have all of my friends that keep exotics and most of which including myself have been doing it for all our lives and we can find nothing on this on the internet :/ it wont happen the government wont let this for many reasons... including the fact of where are these animals going to go if the ban does get brought forward?! lol are they going to take away most species and put them all down even the endangered species which may only be found in captivity? release them to the wild even though they wouldnt be able to defend themselves or even find food? think about it logically it would never be brought forward for so many reason even if it is being discussed!
> If it is going to happen then of course i am totally against this but it wont i heard of a ban like this years ago and guess what it............ never happened! :/ so what if a single species can survive in climate in Spain or Malta, it still needs to know how to defend itself and find food when it has probably been captive all its life or CB, it wouldnt know how to look after itself.
> Is this Information found on DEFRA or something cos i want to see the link so i can read the info from that too lol :] but sign me up


heres a link to the EU and the leglislation, and propised ideas. 

European Commission - Environment - Nature & Biodiversity

We can only sceptulate as to what will happen. It is suggested they will simply ban the trade in these animals, like they did on the EPS list, that will mean that eventually the species will die out in capativity as you would not be able to legally trade offsping (though there will always be a black market). 

There are even more links in the above post.

You know why the ban didnt come in years ago, its because Chris newman and the FBH fought bloody hard against it. it didnt just not come in, peoplew orked hard to prevent it.

Im with you, its completly mental, best case is that country specific quidlines come in, worst case example is that a blanket ban come in with white and black lists. 

Fingers crossed nothing happens, but i would hate for people to say they wernt aware of it. I'd rather discuss worst case scenerio with people, on the off chance it comes in, rather then sticking my head in the sand and pleading ignorance. 

Anyway, i'll stop going on about it now lol. 

jay


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Plant species!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Ok will have a read, may change my mind you never know.


You may still support it, but worst case scenerio is a complete blanket ban which is stupid, the best way is a coutry specific lists which i support. But unless people speak up they dont know. 

I hope i can be proved wrong and that nothing happens, but like i said above i would rather people knew about it, and nothing happened, then leglislation coming in and peple saying they never knew anything about it. if you get my drift. 

Anyway have a rad and make your own mind up. 
jay


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

jme2049 said:


> They'd be incinerated of course:gasp:


lol they wont though endangered species even those kept as pets that cant be found in the wild anymore would be involved to! lol they are protected by good knows how many organisations such as the IUCN Red List and CITIES who wouldnt allow it to happen..... zoos wouldnt be able to take many of them on because of space which is needed for each species and they wouldnt be returned to the wild! lol they wont put down any animal


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## jme2049 (Jan 11, 2008)

JR.Exotics said:


> lol they wont though endangered species even those kept as pets that cant be found in the wild anymore would be involved to! lol they are protected by good knows how many organisations such as the IUCN Red List and CITIES who wouldnt allow it to happen..... zoos wouldnt be able to take many of them on because of space which is needed for each species and they wouldnt be returned to the wild! lol they wont put down any animal


Hmmm true didn't think about the endangered. They'd defo cook my Royal though, he's "normal".


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

I just thought I would chip my voice in. I'm in the anti ban but mainly for reasons of freedom. I don't think it is necessarily the governments place to tell me what I can and cannot keep, I would understand a licence or tighter regulations to help protect biodiversity but an outright ban Is very restrictive and would push my tolerance for what I would consider freedom (and I do consider Britain a fairly free country) 

I have to agree with morgan on the whole benefit to animals thing, I think that in a majority of cases there is no benefit for keeping animals as pets.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

spend_day said:


> I just thought I would chip my voice in. I'm in the anti ban but mainly for reasons of freedom. I don't think it is necessarily the governments place to tell me what I can and cannot keep, I would understand a licence or tighter regulations to help protect biodiversity but an outright ban Is very restrictive and would push my tolerance for what I would consider freedom (and I do consider Britain a fairly free country)
> 
> *I have to agree with morgan on the whole benefit to animals thing, I think that in a majority of cases there is no benefit for keeping animals as pets.*


I agree with you as well, in the majority of cases there is indeed no benifit to the animal when kept as pets. 

jay


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## tom and tina (Oct 28, 2009)

I have to agree with morgan on the whole benefit to animals thing, I think that in a majority of cases there is no benefit for keeping animals as pets.[/QUOTE]

There is a benefit to the animals. The animals can double there life span in captivity, because there is less chance of parasites, natural predation, the temps are consistant and food is readily available. There are alot of endangered species being bred in captivity for this reason. If you eliminate the potential dangers for the animal then the chance of keeping the animal to a ripe old age is good.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

jme2049 said:


> Hmmm true didn't think about the endangered. They'd defo cook my Royal though, he's "normal".


lol most of the exotic pets are endangered even if its Least Concern which means they are still protected, look at Dart Frogs and some other amphibians, they are almost dependant on captive breeding and keeping! lol even Tiger Salamanders, even the more common subspecies are still listed as endangered even if its LC or NT, so what they are gonna take mine away from me?? i dont think so lol have to get through me first!


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

spend_day said:


> I just thought I would chip my voice in. I'm in the anti ban but mainly for reasons of freedom. I don't think it is necessarily the governments place to tell me what I can and cannot keep, I would understand a licence or tighter regulations to help protect biodiversity but an outright ban Is very restrictive and would push my tolerance for what I would consider freedom (and I do consider Britain a fairly free country)
> 
> I have to agree with morgan on the whole benefit to animals thing, I think that in a majority of cases there is no benefit for keeping animals as pets.


I agree with you mate! i would understand if they just said "oh right lets put a little license on these species so there can still be a trade" but an entire ban? :/ it wont happen if they do do it a hell of a lot of angry Citizen's are gonna be causing a uproar! (including me) lol 

as for the no benefit on keeping animals as pets, might i say that a lot of species would be wiped out completely if they werent even kept as pets cos those pets could breed and then be given to a zoo for rebuilding population that could then be rehabilitated back into a national park, game reserve or even to its natural habitat! It appears to me that people are only thinking that people keeping and breeding these animals are only doing it for money i know that i am definitely not as i hope to breed several species and give them away to different zoos for no Monetary Gain and be recorded on the Studd Book for breeding! :/ even H. Azureiventris would be gone completely if people didn't keep them in captivity.
"Listed as Endangered because its Extent of Occurrence is less than 5,000 km2, all individuals are in fewer than five locations, and there is continuing decline in the extent and quality of its habitat."
Look at all sides of the Ban, the good and bad.... i agree some people shouldnt be allowed to keep the animals cos they couldnt give a rats backside wither they look after them properly but that isnt everyone :/


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

tom and tina said:


> I have to agree with morgan on the whole benefit to animals thing, I think that in a majority of cases there is no benefit for keeping animals as pets.


There is a benefit to the animals. The animals can double there life span in captivity, because there is less chance of parasites, natural predation, the temps are consistant and food is readily available. There are alot of endangered species being bred in captivity for this reason. If you eliminate the potential dangers for the animal then the chance of keeping the animal to a ripe old age is good.[/QUOTE]

too right! i agree with this entirely! i know i plan to breed many Darts and Mantella species to help with the population with the hope that my kids would see these animals and their children! :] 
Hang on isnt it Bristol Zoo that have a breeding programe for Golden Mantella's? most of those came from Captive bred specimens from people that keep them as pets! lol


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## tom and tina (Oct 28, 2009)

Sorry i tried to quote but it turned out wrong i disagree with morgan for my points i stated. You can see on my post that it says quote on the end of the first sentance, it just did'nt come up in the blue box for some reason


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

tom and tina said:


> Sorry i tried to quote but it turned out wrong i disagree with morgan for my points i stated. You can see on my post that it says quote on the end of the first sentance, it just did'nt come up in the blue box for some reason


so you agree with him or disagree? :S lol cos you said your disagreed and basically said the same thing as me :] lol


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

tom and tina said:


> There is a benefit to the animals. The animals can double there life span in captivity, because there is less chance of parasites, natural predation, the temps are consistant and food is readily available. There are alot of endangered species being bred in captivity for this reason. If you eliminate the potential dangers for the animal then the chance of keeping the animal to a ripe old age is good.


This is exactly what I was thinking, I'm sure if the animal had the choice between freedom and possible starvation, predation, infestation etc and captivity with guaranteed food, shelter, good health, they would consider the latter as benefits.


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## tom and tina (Oct 28, 2009)

I meant it the way you took it. I just realised that the whole quote thing had gone a miss, and i did'nt want to be seen as being against the petition. I am for for for it. There are so many animals that would of been lost if it was'nt for humans keeping them in culture.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

tom and tina said:


> I meant it the way you took it. I just realised that the whole quote thing had gone a miss, and i did'nt want to be seen as being against the petition. I am for for for it. There are so many animals that would of been lost if it was'nt for humans keeping them in culture.


Are you happy with your animals being taken from you then? Cos you have listed them on your signature lol


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## tom and tina (Oct 28, 2009)

I have emailed the BHS (british herptological society), to see how far this could actually go. I know they mainly deal with native species, but because they are in that area of work, then they should have an idea what is going on. I will let all know what is said.


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## tom and tina (Oct 28, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> Are you happy with your animals being taken from you then? Cos you have listed them on your signature lol


 No i am against anyone losing their animals. I am defo going to unlist them lol, im going underground lol


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## tom and tina (Oct 28, 2009)

ClareT said:


> This is exactly what I was thinking, I'm sure if the animal had the choice between freedom and possible starvation, predation, infestation etc and captivity with guaranteed food, shelter, good health, they would consider the latter as benefits.


Yer thats my thinking. Some animals adopt humans for this exact reason. We have a nest of robins in our garden, and the adults sit on the garden table waiting for me to feed them in the mornings. I know its not the same but is just an example of a wild animal using me for food, and using my tumble dryer fluff as part of its nest.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

tom and tina said:


> Yer thats my thinking. Some animals adopt humans for this exact reason. We have a nest of robins in our garden, and the adults sit on the garden table waiting for me to feed them in the mornings. I know its not the same but is just an example of a wild animal using me for food, and using my tumble dryer fluff as part of its nest.


That's great for about 10% of the animals, not the rest who get treated like crap by complete idiots.


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> That's great for about 10% of the animals, not the rest who get treated like crap by complete idiots.


The majority of owners look after their pets very well, but if we weren't allowed to keep exotic animals then those 'idiots' would never learn the correct way to look after them. We'd all end up being clueless through never having anything to do with the species we like.


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## tom and tina (Oct 28, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> That's great for about 10% of the animals, not the rest who get treated like crap by complete idiots.


Its the other way around more like 90% of pet get kept right. As i said earlier herps get bad press. You never hear of the reports of people letting ferrets into the wild (which happens and they breed), or releasing birds (only for them to get eaten by wild birds). You get idiots in every walk of life, look at jeremy kyle's show. Shame we cant selectivly breed humans


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> That's great for about 10% of the animals, not the rest who get treated like crap by complete idiots.


Lol this isnt even worth discusing cos that figure you have magically pulled out of no where is total bull :/ your basically saying you know the exact amount of people that keep exotics in all of europe! Lol you are all forgetting its ALL OF EUROPE! Not just the UK! So keep your fake facts and figures cos its all your opinion not actual fact....so am I a total idiot then that doesnt know how to keep animals?! Bull crap I have studied them all my life and kept them since I was little brought up with them! So dont talk utter rubbish


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Further more I would like to add it states "Invasive Alien Species" do you draw the line at Cats, Dogs, Rabbits, BOP's, Hamsters, Budgies, Parakeets, Sun Concures, Tragopan subspecies, Siamese Fighters and other fish species and god knows what else? Lol Rabbits are a Alien, non native species that doesnt belong in England, most dog species come from other continents aswell, Golden Hamsters arent from here, neither are subspecies of Lanner Falcons lol so will they ban them too? More evidence that this act will never happen.. The pet trade would completely collapse and there wouldnt be a industry at all :/ so before saying yes to the ban actually use the brain in your head? Lol


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

JR.Exotics said:


> Further more I would like to add it states "Invasive Alien Species" do you draw the line at Cats, Dogs, Rabbits and god knows what else? Lol Rabbits are a Alien, non native species that doesnt belong in England, most dog species come from other continents aswell lol so will they ban them too? More evidence that this act will never happen..


Would the ban stretch to domestic animals? What about birds, fish etc? I know imported fish are a huge, huge industry for home aquariums and I have no doubt that any hobbyist told to give up his fish to be euthanised, there will be a huge uproar. Many people spend thousands on the fish hobby, their not giving that up without a fight


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> Would the ban stretch to domestic animals? What about birds, fish etc? I know imported fish are a huge, huge industry for home aquariums and I have no doubt that any hobbyist told to give up his fish to be euthanised, there will be a huge uproar. Many people spend thousands on the fish hobby, their not giving that up without a fight


Exactly clare just like I said you cannot ban anything like this cos the industry is simply to big and also another point I would like to raise the people exporting them from brasil and other places being prevented from doing so would end up cultivating Drugs which would cause a even bigger problem....


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

JR.Exotics said:


> Exactly clare just like I said you cannot ban anything like this cos the industry is simply to big and also another point I would like to raise the people exporting them from brasil and other places being prevented from doing so would end up cultivating Drugs which would cause a even bigger problem....


Idk I think if someones only other option to earn money after being banned from exporting animals is to turn to importing drugs, chances are they're breaking laws/prioritizing money over animal welfare etc. They're not the people we want to protect, it's the honest, well intentioned hobbyists like yourself who just have an interest that you want to legally pursue


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> Idk I think if someones only other option to earn money after being banned from exporting animals is to turn to importing drugs, chances are they're breaking laws/prioritizing money over animal welfare etc. They're not the people we want to protect, it's the honest, well intentioned hobbyists like yourself who just have an interest that you want to legally pursue


Exactly i mean half the countries depend on pet trade, im not saying i agree with it but at least they arent cultivating substances that could cause harm to the natural habitat of the animals in question! see another point i have just raised surely stopping trade would make people destroy their land to make room and space for other methods of monetary gain? and yeah they aren't important but im just trying to say the EU wont allow that to get any worse lol :] 
and thank you very much for your compliment  those are the people that are exactly who deserve to keep their animals and still continue to trade! I dont care about the monetary gain i would get from breeding any animal i just want most Endangered species (and there is a lot of them) to be still allowed to be kept legally for the good of its species! :]
i mean soem species even are a benefit to humans through medicinal use! look at the Phantasmal Poison Frogs, their toxin Epidebatine is trying to be used a a Pain Killer 200 times more potent and stronger than Liquid Morphine! the amount of lives that could be saved from that pain relief because they die of shock


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

JR.Exotics said:


> i mean soem species even are a benefit to humans through medicinal use! look at the Phantasmal Poison Frogs, their toxin Epidebatine is trying to be used a a Pain Killer 200 times more potent and stronger than Liquid Morphine! the amount of lives that could be saved from that pain relief because they die of shock


Exactly, who knows; we could discover an even more useful medicinal toxin from some captive animal soon! If it gets banned, there goes the discovery


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Local wildlife is more important than people being able to keep pets.


lol might i add most of the "Local" wildlife isnt in native here? Rabbits dont come from here, among other animals... if there's a worry about "Local" Wildlife then shouldn't it be about diseases which cause the decline in our wildlife or mammals such as the Weasel causing havoc? hang on aren't Magpies a local animal to our country yet they cause the decline of many species of bird? they aren't a alien species... also do you stop migratory birds as well?? ask them for a passport saying "Oh sorry Mr Canada Geese, your not allowed in here your non native!" lol? honestly mate your pulling facts and information out of nowhere just like your "10%" figure you magically had lol i know you have a hell of a lot of amphibians, do you think you have the right to have them taken from you? :] what about zoos then? cause i can tell you now that a lot of species escape from zoos like big cats and they are clearly not native so should zoos have a ban? cause the concept of a zoo has been around since 3500 B.C, animals which have been kept just for the amusement of the King, Queen, Emperor or whatever you want to call them...so basically pets! Henry the 1st had a large zoo in Woodstock if i remember rightly from history class, none of the animals were on public show either it was just for him lol so think before you write...


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> Exactly, who knows; we could discover an even more useful medicinal toxin from some captive animal soon! If it gets banned, there goes the discovery


hahah exactly thats my thinking!  if we arent allowed to trade them then surely they would die out in the wild!? :] if the EU put this forward then they are nothing more than useless pencil pushing idiots lol
I say instead of a full ban they should just have a License like the DWAL and leave it as that, i would happily go and buy one to keep my animals! loll :]


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

well I'm sure it will never go through, chances are it's just a scare; there have been so many that I'd be surprised if we heard anything more of this ban. I'll leave this subject here until anything changes


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> well I'm sure it will never go through, chances are it's just a scare; there have been so many that I'd be surprised if we heard anything more of this ban. I'll leave this subject here until anything changes


it clearly is just a scare lol the government cant do anything about people keeping what they want to keep hence why i think this will never happen in a billion years lol i must of heard several ban rumors on this subject since i was 12 and none of them have ever come about because the government knows it will cost more money than its worth to enforce it.... The feeding of Livefood for example such as rats etc, South Africa shares the same laws as us and its not even enforced i must of seen countless numbers of Guinea Pigs being fed to animals out there! lol and i assure you now that they do it over here too even if people deny it lol


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

The majority of 'ethical' snake-keepers who feed live rats do so for good reason though; not just to flout the law but because their animals literally will not eat dead food. Have you seen guinea pigs being eaten by snakes in south africa then?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

JR.Exotics said:


> we can find nothing on this on the internet :/


Chris Newman - whose post is quoted in the original post - is on one of the working groups discussing the new legislation as a representative from one of the UK organisations working to ensure that this legislation is as FRIENDLY towards the UK exotics keeper as possible. 



> including the fact of where are these animals going to go if the ban does get brought forward?! lol are they going to take away most species and put them all down


They don't have to take anything away. If you read the post that I wrote that was quoted in this thread... all they have to do is make it impossible for you to buy them, and impossible for you to sell any you breed yourself. 

Can't buy from a shop or another breeder, and you won't be getting new stock.
If you can't sell to a shop or another keeper, you're unlikely to BREED them, knowing that you'd have to keep ALL of the ones you bred.

Then they just have to wait for the ones that are currently in people's possession to die of old age. No worries about going and finding them, no worries about the disposition of animals they confiscate - just a quiet slipping away.

Much easier to say to a shop "you may not sell these species, and you cannot buy them either" ... and wait for the effects.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Ssthisto said:


> Chris Newman - whose post is quoted in the original post - is on one of the working groups discussing the new legislation as a representative from one of the UK organisations working to ensure that this legislation is as FRIENDLY towards the UK exotics keeper as possible.
> 
> 
> They don't have to take anything away. If you read the post that I wrote that was quoted in this thread... all they have to do is make it impossible for you to buy them, and impossible for you to sell any you breed yourself.
> ...



yeah sorry mate i saw it in the end i was just enraged by some of the people for the ban cos they have no idea what they are talking about... that maybe so that all they have to do is that but thats gonna cause extinction of many species and the IUCN and CITIES wont allow that to happen lol


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

Hey jr answer my question


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> The majority of 'ethical' snake-keepers who feed live rats do so for good reason though; not just to flout the law but because their animals literally will not eat dead food. Have you seen guinea pigs being eaten by snakes in south africa then?


exactly which is why the law is pointless having cause soem snakes and animals will only eat live food especially WC that know nothing else other than live! lol 
and god yes! nearly every game reserve i went to private and non private had enclosures just for breeding guinea pigs for live feeding and not just for snakes, other reptiles, mammals and birds too!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

JR.Exotics said:


> thats gonna cause extinction of many species and the IUCN and CITIES wont allow that to happen lol


Hate to say it, but private keepers are *not* generally breeding animals suitable for reintroduction to the wild - so IUCN/CITES just plain won't be that interested in the plight of private keepers who want to be able to keep breeding their pets.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> Hey jr answer my question


haha just did


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

JR.Exotics said:


> exactly which is why the law is pointless having cause soem snakes and animals will only eat live food especially WC that know nothing else other than live! lol
> and god yes! nearly every game reserve i went to private and non private had enclosures just for breeding guinea pigs for live feeding and not just for snakes, other reptiles, mammals and birds too!


Oh wow, did you actually see the guinea pigs being fed to any animals?


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Ssthisto said:


> Hate to say it, but private keepers are *not* generally breeding animals suitable for reintroduction to the wild - so IUCN/CITES just plain won't be that interested in the plight of private keepers who want to be able to keep breeding their pets.


well i am breeding just for that purpose, to give to zoos for breeding programes, new blood lines for zoos to breed their current stock with and then be rehabilitated when it is suitable to be sent back to the wild! lol i dont give a crap about earning money from it i wouldnt have made my organisation to help people to become more aware of endangered species for money.. i do it cause i want my kids to actually see these animals one day in the wild lol and if everyone on this forum is in it for the money and not for the enjoyment they get from breeding animals and looking after them then whats they point! I know Gartergoon loves her animals to pieces does that mean she cant buy anymore? bull crap :]


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> Oh wow, did you actually see the guinea pigs being fed to any animals?


well i saw one live feeding out there and i am not allowed to state where it was! lol i even have a video on my mobile of it being fed to a venomous and it was a little bit educational but tbh it didnt stand a chance in a glass enclosure lol


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

What was being offered and what was it fed to? Sorry, this kind of thing interests me


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> What was being offered and what was it fed to? Sorry, this kind of thing interests me


it was a large rat and to a Black Mamba lol cant say anything more than that im sorry haha but was a interesting thing to see out there! the venom took no time at all to get round the rats body must of taken five minutes at least


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

Wow  I know a couple who've seen something like that in S.Africa, some little reptile place with a big viv full of maybe half a dozen mambas. It's fascinating!


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> Wow  I know a couple who've seen something like that in S.Africa, some little reptile place with a big viv full of maybe half a dozen mambas. It's fascinating!


hahah i have a funny feeling it might be the same place tbh! lol you mentioning that has just stuck a chord lol.... it is very fascinating in all honesty which is why it should be shown more to students of Animal Studies, cos even though it was horrible to watch it was also interesting to see the venom work and what it would do to you..... i believe its Neurotoxic if i remember rightly and apparently you get the same feeling as you do when your drunk like numbness! lol


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

ClareT said:


> The majority of 'ethical' snake-keepers who feed live rats do so for good reason though; not just to flout the law but because their animals literally will not eat dead food. Have you seen guinea pigs being eaten by snakes in south africa then?


Just to point out live feeding in the UK is not illigal. it is legal so long as it is not done for entertainment purposes or directlly causes unnecessary suffering. 

So many people incorrectly mis interprit the law and state it is illigal. 

Jay


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

Learn something new every day  where abouts can I read the actual wording of the law? Would love to get it right for next time, thank you


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Spikebrit said:


> Just to point out live feeding in the UK is not illigal. it is legal so long as it is not done for entertainment purposes or directlly causes unnecessary suffering.
> 
> So many people incorrectly mis interprit the law and state it is illigal.
> 
> Jay


oh really? lol well they shouldn't teach that at colleges then :/ something definitely wrong with the education system there.. but you are right i looked it up just now and it does state that lol :2thumb: cheers mate


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

JR.Exotics said:


> oh really? lol well they shouldn't teach that at colleges then :/ something definitely wrong with the education system there.. but you are right i looked it up just now and it does state that lol :2thumb: cheers mate


Yep, the amount of misconception and mis understandings that get thrown around is unreal. 

Jay


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> Learn something new every day  where abouts can I read the actual wording of the law? Would love to get it right for next time, thank you


DEFRA website has it on it along with the DWA act etc :]


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Spikebrit said:


> Yep, the amount of misconception and mis understandings that get thrown around is unreal.
> 
> Jay



yeah i know right its unbelievable! :/ i think its a case of the college teaches that to cover their own arse's so they dont get in trouble when a live feeding does go wrong or something :/


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

JR.Exotics said:


> DEFRA website has it on it along with the DWA act etc :]


also to make it easier read here

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/69279-live-feeding-laws.html

Though the law has changed slightly, but all of the above applies. 

Jay


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Spikebrit said:


> also to make it easier read here
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/69279-live-feeding-laws.html
> 
> ...



lol :] 
btw Jay what sort of pygmy stuff do you keep? just curious :]


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

Spikebrit said:


> also to make it easier read here
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/69279-live-feeding-laws.html
> 
> ...


wow I had no idea, seriously thanks so much for pointing this out


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

JR.Exotics said:


> lol :]
> btw Jay what sort of pygmy stuff do you keep? just curious :]


Quite a lot

Got about 40 lizards my maxamium in size being a trio of rescued leos, and my favourate being my various species of stenodactylus or pygmy chams (although i dont have any chams at the moment). Got a few frogs though not manny about 5, though at one point i did have about 30 and finally i have about 35 inverts. This doesnt include any babies or eggs etc.

I'd rather not list them as some are unusual. But for some reason i love all things small, no idea why. Plus i means i can develop overly elaborate planted habitats lol. 

jay


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Spikebrit said:


> Quite a lot
> 
> Got about 40 lizards my maxamium in size being a trio of rescued leos, and my favourate being my various species of stenodactylus or pygmy chams (although i dont have any chams at the moment). Got a few frogs though not manny about 5, though at one point i did have about 30 and finally i have about 35 inverts. This doesnt include any babies or eggs etc.
> 
> ...


wow bloody hell i can understand why you dont want to list many of them though lol i saw some Pygmy chams that got brought to us from a Airport Seizure.... lets say they didnt live long at all due to stress from being smuggled in some ones pocket :/ 
they are pretty awesome though i would like a Pygmy Cham one day :] 

Josh


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

just googled reptile ban nothing comes up something as big as this if the proposition was as threatening as some people think would be all over the media especially if it is going to effect plants and other pets the fact there is nothing says alot 

even the hobbie biggest fans at the apa have nothing on there site singing the bans praises there apparently still hooked up on essex jungle i can find no information on this ban other than posts to stop it on various reptile forums 

reading trhough the actual document this comes to my attention 

"The contents and views contained in this report are those of the authors, and do not
necessarily represent those of the European Commission."


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## gartergoon (Feb 2, 2011)

im concerned that i only found out to day , what if we found out to late , how long has this been trying to actioned ?

we need to go public , but actually do it , theres no point going on about ... WE are trying, trying is borderline failure we need to fight and stand up for this , 

we need to actually go public , 

Im planning on ringing the production team to get hold of the essex jungle team , i think thats a great place to start 
then reptile mags and then , itv news i have there email address already and a number 

this is a big ban that we were facing


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

gartergoon said:


> im concerned that i only found out to day , what if we found out to late , how long has this been trying to actioned ?
> 
> we need to go public , but actually do it , theres no point going on about ... WE are trying, trying is borderline failure we need to fight and stand up for this ,
> 
> ...


do you really think that us hobbiests would be the first to find out when the eu has papers like the sun just looking for stuff like this to write about and groups like the apa who arent gloating away when this is essentialy there goal tbh i dont doubt this hobby will face threats and its handy if we band together to protect the rights of responsible keepers now rather than later but i dont feel this is 1 of those threats


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

gartergoon said:


> im concerned that i only found out to day , what if we found out to late , how long has this been trying to actioned ?


why are you concerned you only found out today? and 'we' didn't find out too late. 'we' aren't an entity in it, which is why Chris Newman knows what's going on and made his post.
you ask how long they've been trying to action it, but if you actually read his post it doesn't say they're trying to 'action' it but some people are trying to raise it as an issue.. it also has the dates in.



> we need to go public , but actually do it , theres no point going on about ... WE are trying, trying is borderline failure we need to fight and stand up for this ,
> 
> we need to actually go public ,
> 
> ...



how about not 'going public' or phoning reptile mags (who probably already know) and phoning the production team of a tv show that was probably filmed months ago. 
We have the likes of Chris Newman and the rest of his team who know what needs to be done and to go about it properly. If they thought that if x, y or z needed to be done then they'd be organising it properly and not by running round forums shouting tally ho and rounding up the troops.
Chris Newman and the IHS are the experts and representatives in anything like this; so why don't we just do the sensible thing and leave it to them?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Ok, I am going to stay away from entering into any confrontation, or even commenting on potential bans.

Instead, I am going to make a very very simple statement. If you LOVE this hobby as much as we all say we do, and you want to see it protected, then put your hand in your pocket and pay for a years sub to the IHS. The simple fact is these are the main group lobbying for the rights of reptile and amphibian keepers here in the UK, and by given them some cash you help to fund this! Achieving far more than having rows on a forum, run around in circles biting each other's proverbial bottoms and getting nothing achieved.

I paid a sub to the IHS last year (right at the end of the year, so only actually got a couple of months membership for a 12 month sub payment), and I will do so again at some point this year. It's not a prohbitive amount, and it WILL go to help with lobbying etc to fight threats to the reptile and amphibian hobby.

That's all I intend to say on this matter, in short put your money where your 'mouth' is.

Cheers

Ade


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Wolfenrook said:


> Ok, I am going to stay away from entering into any confrontation, or even commenting on potential bans.
> 
> Instead, I am going to make a very very simple statement. If you LOVE this hobby as much as we all say we do, and you want to see it protected, then put your hand in your pocket and pay for a years sub to the IHS. The simple fact is these are the main group lobbying for the rights of reptile and amphibian keepers here in the UK, and by given them some cash you help to fund this! Achieving far more than having rows on a forum, run around in circles biting each other's proverbial bottoms and getting nothing achieved.
> 
> ...


lol i dont want to pay for any membership thanks i will just pay for the License if there has to be one! lol :2thumb:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

That's a joke right? You have chosen to enter a hobby that is well known to be expensive, spending large amounts of money on animals and their habitats, but you aren't willing to spend a little bit to help protect the hobby you claim you love? I was trying so hard not to be confrontational, but seriously I think you should consider leaving the hobby to those who really DO love the hobby.

You should try reading the links provided on the 1st thread linked to, if you did you will see there is absolutely NO mention of introducing a license system. Then take a long look at how governments have handled matters like this before. The perfect example been freshwater crayfish, where the ONLY species that can be kept and sold legally in the UK is Cherax _quadricarinatus (sure the law also says that you can keep signal crayfish in areas where these have already become naturalised, subject to local by laws, however most councils in areas where these are naturalised have the good sense NOT to let more in. lol), keep or sell any other species and you risk having to pay a £4000 fine and having your animals confiscated. Sure you can apply for a license to keep other species, not ONE hobbyist has EVER been granted a license however to my knowledge. The only people who are granted them are public aquariua, zoos, universities and similar public institutions. If a rule like this ever gets put into place you can expect a similar stat of affairs for your reptiles and amphibians. Governments prefer to use white lists to black lists, banning everything not listed, and they tend to be very lazy and ill informed when it comes to compiling white lists.

But heh, why should you worry? End of the day mugs like me who really do love the hobby, and really do want to see it protected, will just funds things for you.....

Now I have no intention of throwing my hands in the air, posting all over forums etc etc about this, as I know exactly how effective that approach is to ANYTHING. So my money goes to the IHS, a group EXPERIENCED, and I believe successful, in lobbying to protect our hobby.

I can also see why the EU are pushing for this, given the mess that national governments have made over on the mainland. Just take a look at the mess the Germans have in their water ways thanks to marble crays, a parthenogenetic American species, able to breed in HUGE quantities, and happily carrying 'crayfish plague' around with it, then there is the iberian shrimp, but at least they started out in an EU country in the first place... lol

Ade
_


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

JR.Exotics said:


> lol i dont want to pay for any membership thanks i will just pay for the License if there has to be one! lol :2thumb:


For the sake of the hobbyits best if people join the B.H.S.,I.H.S or one of the local groups affiliated to the F.B.H.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

JR.Exotics said:


> lol i dont want to pay for any membership thanks i will just pay for the License if there has to be one! lol :2thumb:


Cheaper to pay a membership fee to the IHS than to pay for a licence (which isn't likely to happen at this point - as I said, they only _need _to ban people from buying/selling/trading ... which means you won't be able to replace animals as they die OR sell animals you breed) ... have you checked what a DWA licence costs in your council? I haven't seen a licence price cheaper per year (including vet inspection costs) than an IHS membership.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

The development of an EU Strategy on Invasive Alien Species is the biggest threat to our hobby there has ever been, make no mistake on that. It has the *potential* to be devastating; the operative word here is ‘potential’. I very much doubt that the EU Commission themselves, have an agenda to impact our hobby, but your can rest assured there are well funded pressure groups who will jump at the opportunity to hijack this legislation for their own agenda. We have been here before, the Animal Welfare Bill, now Act also had the *potential *to be devastating. As it transpired the outcome was very favourable to us, but this may well not have been the case if we had not actively participated in the shaping of the legislation. We face the same situation again now, but with much grater hurdles! With the AWB we faced one government, with the Invasive Alien Species Invasive Alien Species Strategy we face 27 [28 if you count the EU Commission]. This will be a very different fight, and one we are far from certain to win!


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> lol might i add most of the "Local" wildlife isnt in native here? Rabbits dont come from here, among other animals... if there's a worry about "Local" Wildlife then shouldn't it be about diseases which cause the decline in our wildlife or mammals such as the Weasel causing havoc? hang on aren't Magpies a local animal to our country yet they cause the decline of many species of bird? they aren't a alien species... also do you stop migratory birds as well?? ask them for a passport saying "Oh sorry Mr Canada Geese, your not allowed in here your non native!" lol? honestly mate your pulling facts and information out of nowhere just like your "10%" figure you magically had lol i know you have a hell of a lot of amphibians, do you think you have the right to have them taken from you? :] what about zoos then? cause i can tell you now that a lot of species escape from zoos like big cats and they are clearly not native so should zoos have a ban? cause the concept of a zoo has been around since 3500 B.C, animals which have been kept just for the amusement of the King, Queen, Emperor or whatever you want to call them...so basically pets! Henry the 1st had a large zoo in Woodstock if i remember rightly from history class, none of the animals were on public show either it was just for him lol so think before you write...


What? You're getting way to hung up on semantics. My position is simple, the right of wild animals trumps the right of private keepers.

Is this ban perfect? Hell no, but I do appreciate some effort to protect wild species. Apart from a few educated voices the overall reaction to this legislation seems to be selfish, I can't keep MY pets, without looking at the motivations and potential postives it may have. The legislation is not a bad idea, the devil however, is in the details.


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

i think i rather like the idea of something like this coming into play like i said as long as it has some hobbiests there to help insure that this legislation is imposed to prevent invasive species and not ban the hobby as like morg said at the start the wild comes first 

no amount of protesting (peaceful at least) ever solves anything look at the students there are far more students than exotics keepers and they couldnt prevent the tuition fee rise and they had alot more public and government support than we have:devil:


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> What? You're getting way to hung up on semantics. My position is simple, the right of wild animals trumps the right of private keepers.
> 
> Is this ban perfect? Hell no, but I do appreciate some effort to protect wild species. Apart from a few educated voices the overall reaction to this legislation seems to be selfish, I can't keep MY pets, without looking at the motivations and potential postives it may have. The legislation is not a bad idea, the devil however, is in the details.


What the hell are you on about?! The wildlife trumps the private keeper...... Seriously wildlife are being affected by a lot more than a future possible reptile escape, which Is why I dont get why your going on about the wildlife lol not many exotics could get loose and survive very long considering our countries dramtically changing weather system, a chile rose got out a few years ago from my local reptile shop and guess what I found it dead in my nans old house cos she lived directly next to it lol
And also to stop the import of exotics is pointless cos you still get animals smuggling away in banana goods and hiding away in peoples luggage without them knowing and that has never damaged or wildlife.... Or has the "local" rabbit died out then because bark scorpions have escaped from our local Asda's' lol (i use that as an example cis I actually found a bark scorp in asda's lol )


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## gartergoon (Feb 2, 2011)

Chris Newman said:


> The development of an EU Strategy on Invasive Alien Species is the biggest threat to our hobby there has ever been, make no mistake on that. It has the *potential* to be devastating; the operative word here is ‘potential’. I very much doubt that the EU Commission themselves, have an agenda to impact our hobby, but your can rest assured there are well funded pressure groups who will jump at the opportunity to hijack this legislation for their own agenda. We have been here before, the Animal Welfare Bill, now Act also had the *potential *to be devastating. As it transpired the outcome was very favourable to us, but this may well not have been the case if we had not actively participated in the shaping of the legislation. We face the same situation again now, but with much grater hurdles! With the AWB we faced one government, with the Invasive Alien Species Invasive Alien Species Strategy we face 27 [28 if you count the EU Commission]. This will be a very different fight, and one we are far from certain to win!




so how are we going to win


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> What the hell are you on about?! The wildlife trumps the private keeper...... Seriously wildlife are being affected by a lot more than a future possible reptile escape, which Is why I dont get why your going on about the wildlife lol not many exotics could get loose and survive very long considering our countries dramtically changing weather system, a chile rose got out a few years ago from my local reptile shop and guess what I found it dead in my nans old house cos she lived directly next to it lol
> And also to stop the import of exotics is pointless cos you still get animals smuggling away in banana goods and hiding away in peoples luggage without them knowing and that has never damaged or wildlife.... Or has the "local" rabbit died out then because bark scorpions have escaped from our local Asda's' lol (i use that as an example cis I actually found a bark scorp in asda's lol )


I'm not really sure what part of my post is hard to understand.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> I'm not really sure what part of my post is hard to understand.


No i understand it but it is just Bull S:censor:t. your just saying something that heard someone else say tbh lol our wildlife is protected already and people have been keeping exotics for hundreds of years so why all of a sudden is it "ooooo protect the wildlife! omg reptile might get loose in the future cant have that kill our wildlife!" total crap..... i do agree that a license should be brought forward though cos there are a tiny portion of our population that do indeed couldnt give a fig about their pets but that is a tiny portion not the "90%" you claim to be the people that do this! i would happily buy the license but a full ban would never happen the threat is more Mammals such as the Palm Civit which is known to carry TB and Bird species some of which cannot be controlled in their migratory routes......not reptile and amphibians :/ i could understand a worry about if a female Komodo Dragon got out of a zoo cos of Parthenogenesis but seriously how many people keep a giant Venomous Monitor... if thats the worry your on about then i agree but this ban is talking about all species and its pathetic, as i said previously which no one has bothered to debate me with is the fact it state "Invasive Alien Speices" do you include other species such as Hamsters? Tragopans? no you dont hence why its rubbish and can never happen


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

You've managed to extrapoloate an awful lot from just a small number of comments. I would explain but it's funnier to watch you ramble on.


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

Surely this is going to be rather complex to carry out....especially since some very commonly kept pets could be banned if this was carried out, such as corn snakes, fire bellied toads etc. Surely when we get an EU directive we have to create our own national laws to legislation for it? Can we not then make exceptions to species which might be able to survive in Southern Spain say, but not here.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

As long as cats are banned I'm happy.


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

I think there's no point arguing at the moment  if the ban gets any further, exotic-animal keepers will need to band together to do something about it, not be divided. You've only just found out about it and you're already starting to fight, wait till there's some development  just my two cents!


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> You've managed to extrapoloate an awful lot from just a small number of comments. I would explain but it's funnier to watch you ramble on.


i am just debating your view tbh which you cant and still even havent defended lol you have no proof "Mr 10%" :] and you go on about me being hung up on Semantics but having actualy facts and logics are more powerful than your "10%" (which your never gonna live down haha) but i do like your quote from Alan Partridge!


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> As long as cats are banned I'm happy.


alright i agree with you their cats are a bloody pest lol! :2thumb:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Chris Newman said:


> The development of an EU Strategy on Invasive Alien Species is the biggest threat to our hobby there has ever been, make no mistake on that. It has the *potential* to be devastating; the operative word here is ‘potential’. I very much doubt that the EU Commission themselves, have an agenda to impact our hobby, but your can rest assured there are well funded pressure groups who will jump at the opportunity to hijack this legislation for their own agenda. We have been here before, the Animal Welfare Bill, now Act also had the *potential *to be devastating. As it transpired the outcome was very favourable to us, but this may well not have been the case if we had not actively participated in the shaping of the legislation. We face the same situation again now, but with much grater hurdles! With the AWB we faced one government, with the Invasive Alien Species Invasive Alien Species Strategy we face 27 [28 if you count the EU Commission]. This will be a very different fight, and one we are far from certain to win!


I disagree. From what I can see the single biggest threat to the hobby at the moment is the love of bickering and infighting hobbyists seem to so enjoy....

Oh and leave off the cats! I love my little fur ball!

Ade


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Wolfenrook said:


> I disagree. From what I can see the single biggest threat to the hobby at the moment is the love of bickering and infighting hobbyists seem to so enjoy....
> 
> Oh and leave off the cats! I love my little fur ball!
> 
> Ade


haha true i just dont like when people say stupid things and cant back them up with proof! :/ 

haha sorry i just dont like cats, i only like the Big Cats i have worked with in the past, we can keep those


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## JonnyB359 (Apr 3, 2011)

Anyone got a link straight to a petition i can sign? Couldn't see anything on the other link... just info about the EU plans/directives etc.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

JonnyB359 said:


> Anyone got a link straight to a petition i can sign? Couldn't see anything on the other link... just info about the EU plans/directives etc.


ummmm i dont know if there is one yet or if its in the process of being made :/


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## jme2049 (Jan 11, 2008)

There is a link to a petition. Its written in the 1st posters signature. Copy and paste it.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

joeyboy said:


> Surely this is going to be rather complex to carry out....especially since some very commonly kept pets could be banned if this was carried out, such as corn snakes, fire bellied toads etc. Surely when we get an EU directive we have to create our own national laws to legislation for it? Can we not then make exceptions to species which might be able to survive in Southern Spain say, but not here.


They tried to do something like that with the European Protected Species act - when it changed back in 1994, the UK added legislation to regulate the trade of species that were native to the UK and present on the list but did not regulate the trade of species that were not native to the UK. 

Turns out that was the wrong way to do it, and in 2007, the government was forced to change it and apply the regulation on ALL species on the list, whether or not they exist in the wild in the UK. During the 13 years in between, plenty of people obtained animals that were not being regulated by the UK although they were regulated in the EU... and when the law had to be changed, those animals and their owners were on shaky legal ground.

As I said, they don't have to ban the KEEPING of the animals at all.
Much easier to say to Bob Wholesaler: You may not buy or sell animals of species on this list.
Then, a bit later, say to Craig Shopkeeper: You may not buy or sell animals of species on this list.
Then, a bit later, say to Dave Private Breeder: You may not sell animals of species on this list.

So, if wholesalers can't buy XYZ species from shops or breeders - in the UK, in the EU, in the States, wholesalers don't have any in stock.

If shops can't buy XYZ species from wholesalers, other shops or breeders, then shops don't have any in stock.

And if breeders can't sell XYZ babies they breed to wholesalers or shops or other breeders and keepers.... are breeders likely to breed XYZ species?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> i am just debating your view tbh which you cant and still even havent defended lol you have no proof "Mr 10%" :] and you go on about me being hung up on Semantics but having actualy facts and logics are more powerful than your "10%" (which your never gonna live down haha) but i do like your quote from Alan Partridge!


You've taken the 10% figure way too seriously, it's just something I made up to make a point. I never stated I stood by it and haven't really explained my postion much at all. Just a biref insight into what angle I'm coming from, which Sam seemed to understand fine.

You could always ask me what my view is, rather than assume and launch into yet another diatribe.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

wolfenrook said:


> i disagree. From what i can see the single biggest threat to the hobby at the moment is the love of bickering and infighting hobbyists seem to so enjoy....
> 
> Oh and leave off the cats! I love my little fur ball!
> 
> Ade


werz da proofs?????????


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> You've taken the 10% figure way too seriously, it's just something I made up to make a point. I never stated I stood by it and haven't really explained my postion much at all.


lol you shouldnt of said it then  haha dont say stuff without knowing what your saying cos 10% is a very small percentage mate if you havent noticed for a entire continent :2thumb::Na_Na_Na_Na:

whats your view then cos you keep going on about wildlife etc lol


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> lol you shouldnt of said it then  haha dont say stuff without knowing what your saying cos 10% is a very small percentage mate if you havent noticed for a entire continent :2thumb::Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> whats your view then cos you keep going on about wildlife etc lol


I didn't think it would cause this much hassle.

My problem is in the specifics of the ban, not the idea of any legislation itself. I see no problem banning species than can survive in the wild (on a country by country basis not Europe wide) as the effects can be devestating. See for example Cane Toads or Crayfish. It's heavy handed, not misguided, so I support the efforts of people like Chris Newman even though I would like some form of protection. 

Obviously there will be predation and extinction in the wild and a lot of non exotics are more to blame, especially cats killing frogs and birds, than reps and amphibs. I don't know what legislation there should be, I haven't thought long enough about it.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> I didn't think it would cause this much hassle.
> 
> My problem is in the specifics of the ban, not the idea of any legislation itself. I see no problem banning species than can survive in the wild (on a country by country basis not Europe wide) as the effects can be devestating. See for example Cane Toads or Crayfish. It's heavy handed, not misguided, so I support the efforts of people like Chris Newman even though I would like some form of protection.
> 
> Obviously there will be predation and extinction in the wild and a lot of non exotics are more to blame, especially cats killing frogs and birds, than reps and amphibs. I don't know what legislation there should be, I haven't thought long enough about it.


well think about it with a forum of heavily opinionated hobbyists lol what did you think was gonna happen people not notice!? lol  i hate percentages anyway cos they are impossible numbers that get plucked out of nowher... its like saying "45% of people dont eat peanuts" i mean seriously like thats even true

i see your point now and you should of just stated it before, tbh there cant be any law like this cos it wouldnt be enforced....whos gonna enforce such a massive law :/ lol i peronally think a license should just be issued for the small amount of people that do let animals go... like a thread i saw last night about someone buying a common boa off another person cos they were going to dump it lol a license would be better than a ban (which can never happen theres simply to many loop holes) hence why i am not taking this seriously untill its on the news


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolfenrook said:


> Ok, I am going to stay away from entering into any confrontation, or even commenting on potential bans.
> 
> Instead, I am going to make a very very simple statement. *If you LOVE this hobby as much as we all say we do, and you want to see it protected, then put your hand in your pocket and pay for a years sub to the IHS.* The simple fact is these are the main group lobbying for the rights of reptile and amphibian keepers here in the UK, and by given them some cash you help to fund this! Achieving far more than having rows on a forum, run around in circles biting each other's proverbial bottoms and getting nothing achieved.
> 
> ...


I dont like to be seen as a softie, agreeing with you frog keepers, especially since you like catc - aweful things do more damage to wildlife then anything else. If you want a cat have a house cat. 

But this is the best advice given. if you really want to help our hobby, and help fight this completly aweful leglislation donate to the FBH, and in turn help Chris fiight the course. 

Oh and we all have to unite if we are going to succede as if not the antis will win. 

Jay


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

JR.Exotics said:


> No i understand it but it is just Bull S:censor:t. your just saying something that heard someone else say tbh lol our wildlife is protected already and people have been keeping exotics for hundreds of years so why all of a sudden is it "ooooo protect the wildlife! omg reptile might get loose in the future cant have that kill our wildlife!" total crap..... i do agree that a license should be brought forward though cos there are a tiny portion of our population that do indeed couldnt give a fig about their pets but that is a tiny portion not the "90%" you claim to be the people that do this! i would happily buy the license but a full ban would never happen the threat is more Mammals such as the Palm Civit which is known to carry TB and Bird species some of which cannot be controlled in their migratory routes......not reptile and amphibians :/ i could understand a worry about if a female Komodo Dragon got out of a zoo cos of Parthenogenesis but seriously how many people keep a giant Venomous Monitor... if thats the worry your on about then i agree but this ban is talking about all species and its pathetic, as i said previously which no one has bothered to debate me with is the fact it state "Invasive Alien Speices" do you include other species such as Hamsters? Tragopans? no you dont hence why its rubbish and can never happen



You really do need to read all the posts before you commenting on things, and read all the information, as you seem to want to reply so quickly you dont really take in what you have read. Thats not a dig, or an insiult just a piece of advice. 

There is a possibility that, yes, all mammels cats, hamsters etc etc will be included. Also there is no talk of a liscence, just a ban, so saying you will apply for a liscence rather then donate to the fight, is completly pointless as the liklyhood is, that based on previous leglislation they will simple restrict captive numbers untill no more are around, rather then grant a liscence, just like the EPS lists. 

Jay


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Spikebrit said:


> I dont like to be seen as a softie, agreeing with you frog keepers, especially since you like catc - aweful things do more damage to wildlife then anything else. If you want a cat have a house cat.
> 
> But this is the best advice given. if you really want to help our hobby, and help fight this completly aweful leglislation donate to the FBH, and in turn help Chris fiight the course.
> 
> ...


Cats are the worst for it they should be banned in all honesty! lol not a poison dart frog or whatever lol : victory:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

JR.Exotics said:


> well think about it with a forum of heavily opinionated hobbyists lol what did you think was gonna happen people not notice!? lol  i hate percentages anyway cos they are impossible numbers that get plucked out of nowher... its like saying "45% of people dont eat peanuts" i mean seriously like thats even true
> 
> i see your point now and you should of just stated it before, tbh there cant be any law like this cos it wouldnt be enforced....whos gonna enforce such a massive law :/ lol i peronally think a license should just be issued for the small amount of people that do let animals go... like a thread i saw last night about someone buying a common boa off another person cos they were going to dump it lol a license would be better than a ban (which can never happen theres simply to many loop holes) *hence why i am not taking this seriously untill its on the news*



Once it reaches the news, and national media it will be too late. If we can fight it at this stage then we stand a chance of winning. If we leave it untill its in the media then things have gotten bad. 

That is a very nieve view. As if its get to the media joe public may support it without a try extent of damage it can do. 

Anyway, i'll stop ranting lol

Jay


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

JR.Exotics said:


> wow bloody hell i can understand why you dont want to list many of them though lol i saw some Pygmy chams that got brought to us from a Airport Seizure.... lets say they didnt live long at all due to stress from being smuggled in some ones pocket :/
> they are pretty awesome though i would like a Pygmy Cham one day :]
> 
> Josh


Pygmy chams are brill, such a lovly species. In fact some of what i have here were animals that were found as stow aways or smuggled in, some were ment to be collect by zoo's but then said "they didnt have time" which ment they have come to me. I love rescues like that, as you never know what you will find. 

But yes, pygmy chams stress very quickly, especially since they are very short lived, any stress does untold damage. 

Jay


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Spikebrit said:


> Pygmy chams are brill, such a lovly species. In fact some of what i have here were animals that were found as stow aways or smuggled in, some were ment to be collect by zoo's but then said "they didnt have time" which ment they have come to me. I love rescues like that, as you never know what you will find.
> 
> But yes, pygmy chams stress very quickly, especially since they are very short lived, any stress does untold damage.
> 
> Jay


oh god yeah i love to get offered stuff liek that, not that it happens very often lol but yeah those pygmy chams were impossible especially when we came in the day before they died that one gave birth to live young, i didnt even know pygmy chams gave birth to live either! lol it was a long time ago though :/ they all died cos the had the genetic memory of the mother :[ shame


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> They tried to do something like that with the European Protected Species act - when it changed back in 1994, the UK added legislation to regulate the trade of species that were native to the UK and present on the list but did not regulate the trade of species that were not native to the UK.
> 
> Turns out that was the wrong way to do it, and in 2007, the government was forced to change it and apply the regulation on ALL species on the list, whether or not they exist in the wild in the UK. During the 13 years in between, plenty of people obtained animals that were not being regulated by the UK although they were regulated in the EU... and when the law had to be changed, those animals and their owners were on shaky legal ground.
> 
> ...


 To play Devils advocate here,I have seen some newly promoted C.I.T.E.S.1 species for sale(?) where you pay a donation towards the previous owner and they keep them but loan them to you.Heaven knows what will happen if the new owner breeds them.But what it shows is that people will always look for a way around the law.
I can see this being a big problem if it comes into force for commercial enterprises but will it affect the small time breeder/keeper?If you are breeding Firebellied Toads for instance you will be doing it for the fun rather than the money as I doubt that you can sell the young for more than a fiver each.
Having said all this I dont think that this extra legislation will be good for the hobby,its an underhand way of trying to ban it.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Spikebrit said:


> Once it reaches the news, and national media it will be too late. If we can fight it at this stage then we stand a chance of winning. If we leave it untill its in the media then things have gotten bad.
> 
> That is a very nieve view. As if its get to the media joe public may support it without a try extent of damage it can do.
> 
> ...



its naive because it wont and cant happen lol what would the education system do? Sparsholt college, Greenwich University and Bristol Uni all train students not just to become Vets or Zoo Keepers it trains peopel to work in pet shops... to many things prevent this ban from happening so it isnt me being a Naive its me being realistic as to what the EU can do lol


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Thanks for the tags.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Thanks for the tags.


thats isnt me cos someones done one for me too lol... which i know was you cos no one else would have a chip on there shoulder with me haha


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Thanks for the tags.


Just seen them. 

You tool!!

In regards to the ban. I really dont see how they can group all of Europe together as all the countries have different climates and if a corn or other exotic did escape here, it is highly unlikely it will be able to adapt to be able to live through our winters, and also to breed and get out of control it will have to find the opposite sex, in the same area of that same type of snake(very unlikely) and then the young have to survive as well, with all the predators out there a brightly colored baby snake will stick out like a sore thumb and the majority will get eaten or not survive.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Just seen them.
> 
> You tool!!
> 
> In regards to the ban. I really dont see how they can group all of Europe together as all the countries have different climates and if a corn or other exotic did escape here, it is highly unlikely it will be able to adapt to be able to live through our winters, and also to breed and get out of control it will have to find the opposite sex, in the same area of that same type of snake(very unlikely) and then the young have to survive as well, with all the predators out there a brightly colored baby snake will stick out like a sore thumb and the majority will get eaten or not survive.


mate you just basically said what i have repeated 12 times :/ lol also you keep darts? what types you got? lol


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## gartergoon (Feb 2, 2011)

can we not start insulting each other thats not why i made this thread


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## gartergoon (Feb 2, 2011)

JR.Exotics said:


> its naive because it wont and cant happen lol what would the education system do? Sparsholt college, Greenwich University and Bristol Uni all train students not just to become Vets or Zoo Keepers it trains peopel to work in pet shops... to many things prevent this ban from happening so it isnt me being a Naive its me being realistic as to what the EU can do lol



thats a good point the jr ,


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> mate you just basically said what i have repeated 12 times :/ lol also you keep darts? what types you got? lol


Yeah I haven't read the whole thread, too much to go through. I was just giving my view on the matter.

I keep Dendrobates Leucomelas and Ranitomeya Fantastica.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Yeah I haven't read the whole thread, too much to go through. I was just giving my view on the matter.
> 
> I keep Dendrobates Leucomelas and Ranitomeya Fantastica.


Ranitomeya Fantastica whats the common name for that? cos it never comes up with a common name :/ lol i really want some Amazonicus poison dart frogs :]


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## gartergoon (Feb 2, 2011)

JR.Exotics said:


> Ranitomeya Fantastica whats the common name for that? cos it never comes up with a common name :/ lol i really want some Amazonicus poison dart frogs :]



conversation changer :whistling2:


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> Ranitomeya Fantastica whats the common name for that? cos it never comes up with a common name :/ lol i really want some Amazonicus poison dart frogs :]


Not sure mate but the sub species I have got is the 'varadero' I think.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

gartergoon said:


> thats a good point the jr ,


and thank you Garter :] finally someone has bothered to read my bloody repeating comments! :/ and also people stop bloody tagging thats lame now lol


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Not sure mate but the sub species I have got is the 'varadero' I think.


hmmmm i am not even sure if it has a common name, maybe its one of those species you get with just latin lol


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

JR.Exotics said:


> its naive because *it wont and cant happen* lol what would the education system do? Sparsholt college, Greenwich University and Bristol Uni all train students not just to become Vets or Zoo Keepers it trains peopel to work in pet shops... to many things prevent this ban from happening so it isnt me being a Naive its me being realistic as to what the EU can do lol


If thats the case why has it got this far? 

Why is it already being discussed in Eu meetings?

it is already underway, something will happen, thats a definate it is just a case of limiting the damage. 

Sticking your head in the sand and saying it wont and can't happen when it is already in process is foollish. The leglisalitation is already being discussed and cont through stages, so somthing will deffently happen, its just the extent it occurs. One suggestion is balck and white lists for anything that can surrive in the EU and the other is per country. We have no idea which way it will go. Both are possiable. 

Surly it's worth fighting for at this stage and finding out it wont happen, rather then going 'ahh it can't happen because of .....' and then finding out in a year of so it's been passed.

What have you lost other then a bit of you time, against what you stand to loose?

Jay


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> oh god yeah i love to get offered stuff liek that, not that it happens very often lol but yeah those pygmy chams were impossible especially when we came in the day before they died that one gave birth to live young, *i didnt even know pygmy chams gave birth to live either*! lol it was a long time ago though :/ they all died cos the had the genetic memory of the mother :[ shame


I'm pretty sure they don't. The only chameleon I know of that gives birth to live young is a panther chameleon, obviously there are more but I'm certain pygmys aren't one of them.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

manda88 said:


> I'm pretty sure they don't. The only chameleon I know of that gives birth to live young is a panther chameleon, obviously there are more but I'm certain pygmys aren't one of them.


There isnt many, but i think bradypodion pumilum are live bearing though most are indeed egg layers 

Jay


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> thats isnt me cos someones done one for me too lol... which i know was you cos no one else would have a chip on there shoulder with me haha


Definitely wasn't me, I'm too old for that. I saw yours before I started arguing with you anyway and I'm not the sort to hold a grudge because of a disagreement on the internet.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Spikebrit said:


> If thats the case why has it got this far?
> 
> Why is it already being discussed in Eu meetings?
> 
> ...


mate have you heard what has been said in these meetings?? and something this big would of been all over the news by now cos i am not being funny they have people stationed all over the world waiting for stories in there field... your causing panic for no reason! going on about white and black lists when all the info you have is on the internet (which is widely known as being unrealiable).... Nothing will happen cos every country has its own laws hence why we have a Parliament... and if this has been a major issue then why wasnt it discussed 50 odd years ago or whatever.... Its not foolish, its foolish thinking that a tiny small band of people can change anything when Chris Newman, clearly a guy that knows what hes doing and is sorting it so what does it have to do with you and what you can do? lol


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Definitely wasn't me, I'm too old for that. I saw yours before I started arguing with you anyway and I'm not the sort to hold a grudge because of a disagreement on the internet.


no hoenstly i havent done anything of the sort! lol for god sake what would a tiny tag prove


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Spikebrit said:


> There isnt many, but i think bradypodion pumilum are live bearing though most are indeed egg layers
> 
> Jay


yeah thats what i thought lol it must of been that species then :]


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

How many different arguments can you fit into 1 thread?!?!?!?!?


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> How many different arguments can you fit into 1 thread?!?!?!?!?


haha 47.....maybe 48!


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## jme2049 (Jan 11, 2008)

LOL at the tags. Pollywogs gonna have fun handing out them infractions. The Mods can tell who done them. Trust me I know:whistling2:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

JR.Exotics said:


> its naive because it wont and cant happen lol what would the education system do? Sparsholt college, Greenwich University and Bristol Uni all train students not just to become Vets or Zoo Keepers it trains peopel to work in pet shops... to many things prevent this ban from happening so it isnt me being a Naive its me being realistic as to what the EU can do lol


You can be a vet, zookeeper or pet shop worker with this legislation, JR.... it would just restrict what you can sell or buy.

People keeping tropical animals are probably fine - they'll still be able to sell or buy unless we get an EU-wide whitelist that doesn't account for them. 
People keeping temperate to subtropical species - ESPECIALLY if there's an EU-wide list, white OR black - are the ones that will likely have problems. 

Domestic animals (that's cats, dogs, horses, cattle, sheep, goats, pigs, chickens, domestic geese and domestic ducks, for reference) are unlikely to be legislated against. I read a mention of_ Rattus norvegicus_ being one of the "species of concern". You know, those things snake keepers feed to their snakes? I wouldn't be surprised if _Schistocerca gregaria_, _Locusta migratoria_ and _Gryllus_ species were put on a list to be discussed at some point.

But, eh, you can still keep a zoo or educational department, since that tends to be regulated by an entirely different set of rules to private keepers, and pet shops will just be told that there's an additional list of stuff they can't sell.


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

Spikebrit said:


> There isnt many, but i think bradypodion pumilum are live bearing though most are indeed egg layers
> 
> Jay


Ah see whenever someone says pygmy cham I always assume they mean bearded pygmys


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Ssthisto said:


> You can be a vet, zookeeper or pet shop worker with this legislation, JR.... it would just restrict what you can sell or buy.
> 
> People keeping tropical animals are probably fine - they'll still be able to sell or buy unless we get an EU-wide whitelist that doesn't account for them.
> People keeping temperate to subtropical species - ESPECIALLY if there's an EU-wide list, white OR black - are the ones that will likely have problems.
> ...


then why are people acting as if they are gonna ban everything blah blah blah :/ its confusing me now cos one person says oen thing and someone else says another


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

manda88 said:


> I'm pretty sure they don't. The only chameleon I know of that gives birth to live young is a panther chameleon, obviously there are more but I'm certain pygmys aren't one of them.


haha there are loads of species of pygmys and i am sure panthers arent the only cham that live birth :]


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

id rather i could legaly keep my pets however if students couldnt stop tutition fees or ema payments with a well funded student union, support in parliment the public and from those within the industry like teachers what chance do we really have?peaceful protest and petitions mean nothing its sad but true :devil:

syas on the eu website "On 4 May 2011, in Brussels, European Commissioner for the Environment Janez Potočnik will reveal the EU's new strategy to halt biodiversity loss by 2020"

so its not long to wait


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## gartergoon (Feb 2, 2011)

sambridge15 said:


> id rather i could legaly keep my pets however if students couldnt stop tutition fees or ema payments with a well funded student union, support in parliment the public and from those within the industry like teachers what chance do we really have?peaceful protest and petitions mean nothing its sad but true :devil:
> 
> syas on the eu website "On 4 May 2011, in Brussels, European Commissioner for the Environment Janez Potočnik will reveal the EU's new strategy to halt biodiversity loss by 2020"
> 
> so its not long to wait



:/................


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

sambridge15 said:


> id rather i could legaly keep my pets however if students couldnt stop tutition fees or ema payments with a well funded student union, support in parliment the public and from those within the industry like teachers what chance do we really have?peaceful protest and petitions mean nothing its sad but true :devil:
> 
> syas on the eu website "On 4 May 2011, in Brussels, European Commissioner for the Environment Janez Potočnik will reveal the EU's new strategy to halt biodiversity loss by 2020"
> 
> so its not long to wait


2020? lol hang on i thought it was a year till they enforce this ban!? i am confused now :S


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

JR.Exotics said:


> 2020? lol hang on i thought it was a year till they enforce this ban!? i am confused now :S


I think that means they want the loss stopped completely by 2020, the ban would have to take place before then to have any effect


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> I think that means they want the loss stopped completely by 2020, the ban would have to take place before then to have any effect


oh right i see now thank you for that haha! however i think people seriously overreacting and not thinking properly.... for one i tell you now colleges do not get their stock off of the european studd book they buy their stock in! i used to work as at sparsholt college as a animals technician and i do know what goes on! lol


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

JR.Exotics said:


> oh right i see now thank you for that haha! however i think people seriously overreacting and not thinking properly.... for one i tell you now colleges do not get their stock off of the european studd book they buy their stock in! i used to work as at sparsholt college as a animals technician and i do know what goes on! lol


They're an educational college right? I read somewhere on this thread that rats would be on the ban list if it ever comes about, this thing is spreading lol

BTW whats a animal technician


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> They're an educational college right? I read somewhere on this thread that rats would be on the ban list if it ever comes about, this thing is spreading lol


Yeah they train a majority of students that end up in all sorts of jobs from zoo keeper to marine biologist.. and see i told you it will spread to not just reptiles which is why IT WILL NOT HAPPEN!!!


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## jme2049 (Jan 11, 2008)

Anyone a member of any EU herp sites seen any thing about this on them sites?


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> oh right i see now thank you for that haha! however i think people seriously overreacting and not thinking properly.... for one i tell you now colleges do not get their stock off of the european studd book they buy their stock in! i used to work as at sparsholt college as a animals technician and i do know what goes on! lol


I think in someway if you are really against this, then it is better to overreact, rather than sitting around having a view point saying it wont happen. Because it could happen otherwise there wouldn't be anything about it and we wouldn't need anyone fighting our side. There is a risk that this could happen so there is no point hiding away saying they can't do it, because they can.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

JR.Exotics said:


> then why are people acting as if they are gonna ban everything blah blah blah :/ its confusing me now cos one person says oen thing and someone else says another


I don't know about you, but I'm not happy with "ban temperate-zone species and common feeder species" any more than I'd be happy with "ban everything".

*And the more species they regulate against, the easier it is to regulate against what's left.*


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> I think in someway if you are really against this, then it is better to overreact, rather than sitting around having a view point saying it wont happen. Because it could happen otherwise there wouldn't be anything about it and we wouldn't need anyone fighting our side. There is a risk that this could happen so there is no point hiding away saying they can't do it, because they can.



Im glad im not the only on with this viewpoint, I'd rather fight somrthing that might not come in then do nothing.

Jay


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> Yeah they train a majority of students that end up in all sorts of jobs from zoo keeper to marine biologist.. and see i told you it will spread to not just reptiles which is why IT WILL NOT HAPPEN!!!


But you are only 20 yourself according to your profile, surely you would have to have a degree to train students before doing this?


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> I think in someway if you are really against this, then it is better to overreact, rather than sitting around having a view point saying it wont happen. Because it could happen otherwise there wouldn't be anything about it and we wouldn't need anyone fighting our side. There is a risk that this could happen so there is no point hiding away saying they can't do it, because they can.


American told the world that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction and guess what we havent seen any site of any of them in ten years.... we reacted cos of the 11/9 tragedy, some say that we over reacted to it and yeah we proabably did cos we would be dead if they had these weapons that could destroy cities would of happened by now :/


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> But you are only 20 yourself according to your profile, surely you would have to have a degree to train students before doing this?


haha i have studied animal management since i was 16 and i have done many jobs, if you know the right people (I knew the head of the AMC) then you can get a job easily lol


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Spikebrit said:


> Im glad im not the only on with this viewpoint, I'd rather fight somrthing that might not come in then do nothing.
> 
> Jay


Same here. 

The European Protected Species legislation took away one of my partner's favourite species - we'd dearly love to have and breed sheltopusik (giant legless lizards) ... but not with the legal restrictions on the sale, purchase and ownership on them.


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

JR.Exotics said:


> haha i have studied animal management since i was 16 and i have done many jobs, if you know the right people (I knew the head of the AMC) then you can get a job easily lol


Were you an actual lecturer then? Or like cleaned the animals out and fed and stuff lol


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> American told the world that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction and guess what we havent seen any site of any of them in ten years.... we reacted cos of the 11/9 tragedy, some say that we over reacted to it and yeah we proabably did cos we would be dead if they had these weapons that could destroy cities would of happened by now :/


What does that have to do with anything?!?!? If we have a counter argument then even if it doesn't happen this time there WILL be another time and we are then ready to fight it. 

It CAN happen if the EU, Parliament, Goverment whoever is dealing with it want it to, but we can make it harder for them by having an argument. If this wasn't possible to pass then it wouldn't be an issue and we wouldn't hear anything about it.

Loads of people didn't think fox hunting could/would be band, but look what happened there. The same could happen here.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> Were you an actual lecturer then? Or like cleaned the animals out and fed and stuff lol


uh an animal technician is basically a better name for a Zoo keeper! lol bloody hell me teach at my age you have to be kidding i worked in the AMC (animal Management center) the most teaching i ever did was showing 16 year olds how to look after animals and not just in the Herptile side of it :/ i have no interest in teaching i dont know everything like some people on this forum do tend to say lol


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> Same here.
> 
> The European Protected Species legislation took away one of my partner's favourite species - we'd dearly love to have and breed sheltopusik (giant legless lizards) ... but not with the legal restrictions on the sale, purchase and ownership on them.



Totally agree, the EPS list removed some of my own favourate species. People then said it would never work, just like they are now. It came into place and already you no longer see any of those listed on the EPS list available for sale, or even kept. 

I can see exaclty the same thing happening again. Though i hope Chris and the others are putting up a good fight. I will do my part where i can and riase its attention by reptle keepers. Id rather people were aware of the worst case scenerio and say it wont happen, then not be aware at all. 

Jay


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> What does that have to do with anything?!?!? If we have a counter argument then even if it doesn't happen this time there WILL be another time and we are then ready to fight it.
> 
> It CAN happen if the EU, Parliament, Goverment whoever is dealing with it want it to, but we can make it harder for them by having an argument. If this wasn't possible to pass then it wouldn't be an issue and we wouldn't hear anything about it.
> 
> Loads of people didn't think fox hunting could/would be band, but look what happened there. The same could happen here.


it has everything to do with it! people overeact which is basically what this entire thread is about! lol 

well fox hunting is coming back so obviously didnt work lol


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> haha i have studied animal management since i was 16 and i have done many jobs, if you know the right people (I knew the head of the AMC) then you can get a job easily lol


Answered my question in prev post


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> hmm I cant see a college/uni letting someone teach Students who wasn't qualified pretty sure that not allowed but meh, maybe i'm wrong: victory:


wtf mate read the comment above these! learn to read i never said i taught anyone thats you just assuming things which is basically what this thread is about lol


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

JR.Exotics said:


> uh an animal technician is basically a better name for a Zoo keeper! lol bloody hell me teach at my age you have to be kidding i worked in the AMC (animal Management center) the most teaching i ever did was showing 16 year olds how to look after animals and not just in the Herptile side of it :/ i have no interest in teaching i dont know everything like some people on this forum do tend to say lol


Oh haha posh name for a not so posh job huh


----------



## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Answerd my question in prev post



You currently dont need any qualifications to teach over 16 year olds, apart form what the department warrents as previous experience. However, in the next few years you will need a PgC HPE; which incidently im actually in the process of completing.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Spikebrit said:


> You currently dont need any qualifications to teach over 16 year olds, apart form what the department warrents as previous experience. However, in the next few years you will need a PgC HPE; which incidently im actually in the process of completing.


really lol well there we go then it looks like i could of done a bit of teaching if i wanted to! lol so your a Lecturer then?


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> *Yeah they train a majority of students that end up in all sorts of jobs from zoo keeper to marine biologist..* and see i told you it will spread to not just reptiles which is why IT WILL NOT HAPPEN!!!





JR.Exotics said:


> wtf mate read the comment above these! learn to read i never said i taught anyone thats you just assuming things which is basically what this thread is about lol


Whats this comment then, thats you saying you train people. Training is another form of teaching:2thumb: Not assuming anything mate, this is what you said. As you can see I saw you said that you didn't teach and changed my comment but at the time I posted your comment wasn't there :banghead:


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> Oh haha posh name for a not so posh job huh


haha oh no cleaning up the faecal matter of animals is very posh!  nah i love it though, its a job im passionate about and couldnt care about the money side of it :]


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Whats this comment then, thats you saying you train people. Training is another form of teaching:2thumb: Not assuming anything mate, this is what you said. As you can see I saw you said that you didn't teach and changed my comment but at the time I posted your comment wasn't there :banghead:


it was assuming cos i was talking about the college training students not me mate :] see you just assumed that what you thought is what i said when i didnt say "I trained students" i said "they train students"..... and thats fair enough mate :]


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

JR.Exotics said:


> haha oh no cleaning up the faecal matter of animals is very posh!  nah i love it though, its a job im passionate about and couldnt care about the money side of it :]


is that the job you're working right now then?


----------



## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> is that the job you're working right now then?


 No unfortunately jobs are hard to come by in the zoo area atm :[ but every zoo job i have ever done was a majority of that! i had to leave the AMC cos of traveling as i used to be allowed to stay on site cos i was a Student too but when you finish your not allowed to stay for obvious reasons lol :/ loved working with the Tragopans the most which i have a look of photos on my profile


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> it was assuming cos i was talking about the college training students not me mate :] see you just assumed that what you thought is what i said when i didnt say "I trained students" i said "they train students"..... and thats fair enough mate :]


OK but it sounded as it you were explaining what an exotics technician did which is what you said you were, hence the comment. 

Thought it would be a bit hard for a 20 yeard old to be teaching students in a Uni.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> OK but it sounded as it you were explaining what an exotics technician did which is what you said you were, hence the comment.
> 
> Thought it would be a bit hard for a 20 yeard old to be teaching students in a Uni.



Nah i was just saying what the college does in general lol not me i never came into the question till after that lol 
and oh its not a uni its a college  has uni courses but it is just a college, i think its like the second best animal management college in the country or something :/

Also i never said exotics technician either i said Animal Technician lol which is someone who deals with all animals as we worked on a rota :]


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

JR.Exotics said:


> No unfortunately jobs are hard to come by in the zoo area atm :[ but every zoo job i have ever done was a majority of that! i had to leave the AMC cos of traveling as i used to be allowed to stay on site cos i was a Student too but when you finish your not allowed to stay for obvious reasons lol :/ loved working with the Tragopans the most which i have a look of photos on my profile


That's fair enough  how good is it as a college?


----------



## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> That's fair enough  how good is it as a college?


:] ummmm well its got one of the best reputations for a college has good facilaties, good selection of animals which students can work with for a length of given time to get the used to keeping lol wide range of animals are there from Red Panda's, Tragopan's to Sugar Gliders etc.... they have just done up there reptile and amphib sections and i hear they are building a Bat Room soon i go up there next week to see everyone


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

JR.Exotics said:


> :] ummmm well its got one of the best reputations for a college has good facilaties, good selection of animals which students can work with for a length of given time to get the used to keeping lol wide range of animals are there from Red Panda's, Tragopan's to Sugar Gliders etc.... they have just done up there reptile and amphib sections and i hear they are building a Bat Room soon i go up there next week to see everyone


Wow not bad. I know a lot of places like that skim over the actual physical learning with the animals and just get you to do the cleaning out and feeding, then tell you to shove off lol.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> Wow not bad. I know a lot of places like that skim over the actual physical learning with the animals and just get you to do the cleaning out and feeding, then tell you to shove off lol.


lol yeah i have heard rumors of other places like that but sparsholt was good for that, they encouraged interaction with the animals unless it was with the red panda cos they were vicious for them which is unusual :/ lol mind you i kicked a student out of the AMC once for trying to grab the female Monal and nearly hurting it :/


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

JR.Exotics said:


> lol yeah i have heard rumors of other places like that but sparsholt was good for that, they encouraged interaction with the animals unless it was with the red panda cos they were vicious for them which is unusual :/ lol mind you i kicked a student out of the AMC once for trying to grab the female Monal and nearly hurting it :/


Ah things like that happen. but red pandas are usually very laid back and friendly, if a little bit naughty lol


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## gartergoon (Feb 2, 2011)

Meko said:


> why are you concerned you only found out today? and 'we' didn't find out too late. 'we' aren't an entity in it, which is why Chris Newman knows what's going on and made his post.
> you ask how long they've been trying to action it, but if you actually read his post it doesn't say they're trying to 'action' it but some people are trying to raise it as an issue.. it also has the dates in.
> 
> 
> ...




at least im thinking of trying 
i just will sit here then and do nothing and ill remind you of this WHEN THE BAN HAPPENS


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

i think really we wait until may the 4th when there will be a strong outline of what we can expect rather than all this speculation and just hope the force is with us after all it is starwars day :2thumb:


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> Ah things like that happen. but red pandas are usually very laid back and friendly, if a little bit naughty lol


yeah but unfortunately that was a staff members fault because the Pheasantries were meant to be closed off for breeding purposes and all the animals, Temminck's Tragopans, Satyr Tragopans, Edwards Pheasants, Reeves Pheasants and Himalayan Monal's were all on a breeding programe lol 
and yeah Kiki and Ling were very old and were from Marwell or a zoo i cant remember exactly for retirement so they were allowed to be nasty! haha


----------



## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

gartergoon said:


> at least im thinking of trying
> i just will sit here then and do nothing and ill remind you of this WHEN THE BAN HAPPENS


But you have no idea what's going on, really. You don't know whether there even will be a ban, let alone which species are on it, what the limits will be and how it'll be enforced. Chris knows a lot more than any of us, so you and all of us should wait until we know a little bit more. We can't blindly fight in all directions against something we're pretty much ignorant of. There is nothing you can do right now.


----------



## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

JR.Exotics said:


> yeah but unfortunately that was a staff members fault because the Pheasantries were meant to be closed off for breeding purposes and all the animals, Temminck's Tragopans, Satyr Tragopans, Edwards Pheasants, Reeves Pheasants and Himalayan Monal's were all on a breeding programe lol
> and yeah Kiki and Ling were very old and were from Marwell or a zoo i cant remember exactly for retirement so they were allowed to be nasty! haha


Old animals always have an excuse to be grouchy XD


----------



## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> Old animals always have an excuse to be grouchy XD


haha exactly apart from old tortoises they have to remain nice  god i miss that job! :[ 
where that guy gone who assumed everything about me from one post!? lol


----------



## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

JR.Exotics said:


> haha exactly apart from old tortoises they have to remain nice  god i miss that job! :[
> where that guy gone who assumed everything about me from one post!? lol


Guess he got bored lol. So serious question, if a ban ever came into place and you were told to get rid of your animals, would you get rid of them or hide them?


----------



## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> Guess he got bored lol. So serious question, if a ban ever came into place and you were told to get rid of your animals, would you get rid of them or hide them?


lol or realised he was wrong... and well i wouldnt give them up and i wouldnt go underground with them... most of the animals i keep are endangered species which i use for Talks to colleges about conservation and endangered species :] some of my darts i am breeding for zoo breeding programes only too like it says in my sig :]


----------



## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

JR.Exotics said:


> lol or realised he was wrong... and well i wouldnt give them up and i wouldnt go underground with them... most of the animals i keep are endangered species which i use for Talks to colleges about conservation and endangered species :] some of my darts i am breeding for zoo breeding programes only too like it says in my sig :]


But if some official was on his way round to take them off you??


----------



## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> But if some official was on his way round to take them off you??


then i would ask him if he had a permit to enter my premises lol which takes a lot of effort to get from the police.. I have nothing to hide about the animals i keep, all of which are secured away cos i treat them like my own kids lol i mean i worry if i go out and havent shut the tank door or something then i end up phoning my parents to check haha


----------



## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> haha exactly apart from old tortoises they have to remain nice  god i miss that job! :[
> where that guy gone who assumed everything about me from one post!? lol


 
I finished WORK, and had my tea thanks, I never assumed anything, I simply asked questions based on what you put in your posts. 

Are you just looking for arguments cause thats the way it seems as I dont see the need to say "where that guy gone who assumed everything about me from one post" when those posts were a couple of pages back. Just bored are you, but your not going to get an argument out of me:2thumb:.


----------



## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

JR.Exotics said:


> then i would ask him if he had a permit to enter my premises lol which takes a lot of effort to get from the police.. I have nothing to hide about the animals i keep, all of which are secured away cos i treat them like my own kids lol i mean i worry if i go out and havent shut the tank door or something then i end up phoning my parents to check haha


Awww thats sweet  sounds like you really care for them


----------



## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> I finished WORK, and had my tea thanks, I never assumed anything, I simply asked questions based on what you put in your posts.
> 
> Are you just looking for arguments cause thats the way it seems as I dont see the need to say "where that guy gone who assumed everything about me from one post" when those posts were a couple of pages back. Just bored are you, but your not going to get an argument out of me:2thumb:.


nope not looking for any argument mate cos i was actually loking foward to a nice talk about animals like i am doing with ClareT (which i am not being funny is hard to get on here) and honestly you did assume cos i have posted those comments and quotes on Facebook asking if you can misread what i said and no one misread it thinking i taught students! :whistling2:


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

osad3511 said:


> I already had a low self esteem to begin with so getting ignored on a message board just makes it worse.


no-one's ignoring you


----------



## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> Awww thats sweet  sounds like you really care for them


haha  yeah i do love my animals to bits hence when i buy soemthing i never really look at animals as money :] they are animals that need care


----------



## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> nope not looking for any argument mate cos i was actually loking foward to a nice talk about animals like i am doing with ClareT (which i am not being funny is hard to get on here) and honestly you did assume cos i have posted those comments and quotes on Facebook asking if you can misread what i said and no one misread it thinking i taught students! :whistling2:


:lol2::lol2::lol2: WTF good for you!!!!

Bye now, off to get some intelligent conversation.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> :lol2::lol2::lol2: WTF good for you!!!!
> 
> Bye now, off to get some intelligent conversation.


haha mate you cant have one cos you misread everything and writing my name as a tag isnt gonna prove anything! hahahaha


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## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

guys cum on, no need to argue anymore, you have differing opinions is all. No-one's right so why don't you both just leave it there


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> haha mate you cant have one cos you misread everything and writing my name as a tag isnt gonna prove anything! hahahaha


It wasn't him that put the tag  I think it'd be best if you both drop it now cos neither of you are getting anywhere, at the end of the day you both actually agree with each other on the topic this thread is actually about.


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> guys cum on, no need to argue anymore, you have differing opinions is all. No-one's right so why don't you both just leave it there


I havent done anything wrong lol and i havent started an argument or made it personal by writing my name childishly as a tag lol


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

manda88 said:


> It wasn't him that put the tag  I think it'd be best if you both drop it now cos neither of you are getting anywhere, at the end of the day you both actually agree with each other on the topic this thread is actually about.


then why did you write it then cos i was gonna go to the Moderator to get it taken off so you best remove it lol


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> then why did you write it then cos i was gonna go to the Moderator to get it taken off so you best remove it lol


lol because I lol think you're an idiot lol. I'm well scared of moderators, I best remove it before something bad happens!


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

manda88 said:


> lol because I lol think you're an idiot lol. I'm well scared of moderators, I best remove it before something bad happens!


your the idiot mate lol have opinions just like you :] and mate seriously grow up you seem like your twelve? or are you younger than that? lol

haha thats why your calling me that cos i stood up against your pal Morgan Freeman i did wonder


----------



## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> haha mate you cant have one cos you misread everything and writing my name as a tag isnt gonna prove anything! hahahaha


Haha, who's assuming now, I don't even know your name. So because your posts are all over the place and you tried to make your job look more glamorous than it was, means I cant have an intelligent conversation does it. Your a funny one you!

Again bye bye, hope we speak again soon when you have something more interesting to say:2thumb:


----------



## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Haha, who's assuming now, I don't even know your name. So because your posts are all over the place and you tried to make your job look more glamorous than it was, means I cant have an intelligent conversation does it. Your a funny one you!
> 
> Again bye bye, hope we speak again soon when you have something more interesting to say:2thumb:


haha i thought you had gone actually! lol bye though i hope we can to but yes you are right in me assuming that ;] that makes us even lol


----------



## ClareT (Apr 26, 2011)

argument finished now? can we move on


----------



## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> your the idiot mate lol have opinions just like you :] and mate seriously grow up you seem like your twelve? or are you younger than that? lol
> 
> haha thats why your calling me that cos i stood up against your pal Morgan Freeman i did wonder


I'm the idiot yet you're the one that can't spell? Riiiight  My age is irrelevant, though I find it amusing that you *assume* I'm 12 after reading two of my posts. I made the idiot tag waaaaay before you were talking to Morg, it's just that nobody noticed it for a long time cos they were too preoccupied with going round in circles with their posts.


----------



## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

ClareT said:


> argument finished now? can we move on


i hope so cos its stupid now its gone from the ban to getting personal


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Spikebrit said:


> Totally agree, the EPS list removed some of my own favourate species. People then said it would never work, just like they are now. It came into place and already you no longer see any of those listed on the EPS list available for sale, or even kept.
> 
> I can see exaclty the same thing happening again. Though i hope Chris and the others are putting up a good fight. I will do my part where i can and riase its attention by reptle keepers. Id rather people were aware of the worst case scenerio and say it wont happen, then not be aware at all.
> 
> Jay


Exactly. There's a fine line between scaremongering and being aware of worst-case scenarios.



JR.Exotics said:


> fox hunting is coming back so obviously didnt work lol


Fox hunting being banned wasn't an EU directive, though, was it?


----------



## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

manda88 said:


> I'm the idiot yet you're the one that can't spell? Riiiight  My age is irrelevant, though I find it amusing that you *assume* I'm 12 after reading two of my posts. I made the idiot tag waaaaay before you were talking to Morg, it's just that nobody noticed it for a long time cos they were too preoccupied with going round in circles with their posts.


ahhhh so that was you then! lol i just realised i wrote write instead of right haha stupid me now i am definitely an idiot for that reason... and way doesnt have 5 A's in it btw ;]
did you write jr.exotics=amazing too out of interest? lol


----------



## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Ssthisto said:


> Exactly. There's a fine line between scaremongering and being aware of worst-case scenarios.
> 
> 
> Fox hunting being banned wasn't an EU directive, though, was it?


ummm no it was Parliament i think actually :/ never thought about it actually im going to look it up lol


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

JR.Exotics said:


> ahhhh so that was you then! lol i just realised i wrote write instead of right haha stupid me now i am definitely an idiot for that reason... and way doesnt have 5 A's in it btw ;]
> did you write jr.exotics=amazing too out of interest? lol


:lol2: I'm afraid not, no  I will admit to putting the i<3morganfreeman one though haha, only because of all the others that were being mean to him, plus secretly we do all love him. Secretly. *shifty eyes*


----------



## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

manda88 said:


> :lol2: I'm afraid not, no  I will admit to putting the i<3morganfreeman one though haha, only because of all the others that were being mean to him, plus secretly we do all love him. Secretly. *shifty eyes*


haha then who the hell put that one there!? lol i had nothing to do with the others though so wasn't me..... can we stop this stupid argument please though cause its not even about reptiles anymore and using my name isnt going to do anything lol

plus your lucky that tag fitted! haha


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

JR.Exotics said:


> ummm no it was Parliament i think actually :/ never thought about it actually im going to look it up lol


See, EU directives definitely appear to trump local laws - they certainly did with the EPS legislation. Take a look at that list of European Protected Species sometime....


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

Ssthisto said:


> See, EU directives definitely appear to trump local laws - they certainly did with the EPS legislation. Take a look at that list of European Protected Species sometime....


Oh ok that's change my view on it now lol never thought of it like that :/ thanks for enlightening me :]


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

If you lot continue to abuse the tags this thread will be closed. If you want to argue and slag each other off please take it to another section so I don't have to deal with it :whistling2:


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## jme2049 (Jan 11, 2008)

LOL at the new tag.


Polly:notworthy:


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

jme2049 said:


> LOL at the new tag.
> 
> 
> Polly:notworthy:


hahahaha! :no1:


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> See, EU directives definitely appear to trump local laws - they certainly did with the EPS legislation. Take a look at that list of European Protected Species sometime....


This legislation is most likely to be a ‘regulation’ rather than a ‘directive’ – A regulation is far more draconian as members states have no option but to enforce.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Chris Newman said:


> This legislation is most likely to be a ‘regulation’ rather than a ‘directive’ – A regulation is far more draconian as members states have no option but to enforce.


Agreed, it will be an interesting day when the report comes out. 

Jay


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Spikebrit said:


> Agreed, it will be an interesting day when the report comes out.
> 
> Jay


The problem is the battle will be won or lost before it ever sees the public light of day! The public consolation process is unlikely to start before late summer, by then the major decisions will have been made.


----------



## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Chris Newman said:


> The problem is the battle will be won or lost before it ever sees the public light of day! The public consolation process is unlikely to start before late summer, by then the major decisions will have been made.


Exactly, and this is my worry. 

Are you or the FBH, or any animal consultant involved in the discussion aspect of this report before it comes to public consultation? 

Jay


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Spikebrit said:


> Exactly, and this is my worry.
> 
> Are you or the FBH, or any animal consultant involved in the discussion aspect of this report before it comes to public consultation?
> 
> Jay


Yes...


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Chris Newman said:


> Yes...


In that case I will drop you a PM later (when im not at work), as I have some questions.

Jay


----------



## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

Chris Newman said:


> Yes...


so what is the current climate of these discussions?


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

sambridge15 said:


> so what is the current climate of these discussions?


You will appreciate that it may not be possible to discuss issues that are currently being debated in closed discussions. However, below is what I posted on another thread on this forum – you might have to read between the lines!!!! 



Dear all,

On Friday we had a full day meeting in London being briefed on the EU Alien Invasive Species Strategy with Niall Moore, Secretary to the GB Non Native Secretariat, and Huw Thomas, Defra head of Non-native Species Policy. 

I am not going to go into huge detail with everything being discussed as much to be very concise. I will go with some of the headlines. Huw opened with a brief appraisal of what is called Non-native Species in the UK and Invasive Alien Species in the EU – would be helpful if they could unify the term!

According to the Daisy database: DAISIE - Home there are some 11,000 known invasive alien species in the EU of which 15% are damaging - costing 12.7 billion Euros annually.

In the UK we have 2,300 known species, of which 10% are harmful – costing the UK economy 2 billion £. The GB Non Native Secretariat produce Risk Assessments for the most serious threats, and this is very worth while looking at: https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/nonnativespecies/index.cfm?sectionid=51

Interestingly some of the risk assessments that have been completed have in fact been more favourable to us than anticipated. For example at one stage Italian crested newts were thought to be a ‘serious’ problem and where suggested for trade bands and even prohibition by private keepers, and yet the risk assessment recently published is much more favourable. It was mentioned at the meeting that to complete risk assessment for all know species in the UK would take 147 years!!!- that is one of the major issues.

Under the EU Invasive Alien Species Strategy three Working Groups have been formed, only two are of concern at the moment. Working Group 1 – Prevention is the key group from our perspective. Interestingly the scoping document barely mentions imports, referring mainly to “intentional release”. However, the current draft of the Working Groups document has substantial reference to imports, according to our hosts for the day. Also as it stands the Working Groups current draft does not include all options available as required, i.e. there is no mention of Black List only approaches – which is very worrying. 

About 22 stake holders attended the meeting, by far the majority from our side of the fence, from the antis we had Plant Life and the RSPCA. It certainly appeared to me that our government is not supportive of a White List approach, unfortunately only the French are in open agreement with this. Germany which is key has not declared its hand yet and we could elicit from our hosts for the day if they had any feeling for how Germany might go. If UK, France and Germany opposed a White List approach I think we would be very encourage for a positive outcome.

Here is a link to the EU website where all the publically available documents in relation to EU Invasive Alien Species Strategy can be found: CIRCA - communication & Information Resource Centre Administrator This includes a list of members of each working group – including member state official representatives.

This is clearly and issue that is going to have a huge impact on activities of both keepers and industry. Here in the UK we have substantial input with government as direct stakeholders. I will keep you all fully informed of further developments as and when they are available.

Regards,
Chris


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

NOw that is very intersting Chris. 

I wonder if we can contact any of our German herptologist and make them aware of this issue. 

jay


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Spikebrit said:


> NOw that is very intersting Chris.
> 
> I wonder if we can contact any of our German herptologist and make them aware of this issue.
> 
> jay


I held at meeting at the March Hamm show to which many of the major players in Germany and other EU member states attended, the purpose of this meeting was to discuss the current topic. What shocked me if few if any other EU member states have the same level of dialogue with their respective governments as we do here in the UK. In Germany interaction with their government appears to be negligible!!!!!!


----------



## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Chris Newman said:


> I held at meeting at the March Hamm show to which many of the major players in Germany and other EU member states attended, the purpose of this meeting was to discuss the current topic. What shocked me if few if any other EU member states have the same level of dialogue with their respective governments as we do here in the UK. In Germany interaction with their government appears to be negligible!!!!!!


Hmm, that is interesting. Is it possiable to try and help herp groups in Germany and other EU states up the pressure the apply to their governement, by passing on the advice you have used in this case. I do many do not have the dialog we have here, but some pressure i better then non at all. If there a centre herp group in germany, like we have the FBH here? you will have to excuse my ignorance on the subject of German and other herp keeping. 

Though i do understand that it may already be too late. 

I wasnt aware you did a talk at hamm, that would have been interesting to hear. 

Jay


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Spikebrit said:


> Hmm, that is interesting. Is it possiable to try and help herp groups in Germany and other EU states up the pressure the apply to their governement, by passing on the advice you have used in this case. I do many do not have the dialog we have here, but some pressure i better then non at all. If there a centre herp group in germany, like we have the FBH here? you will have to excuse my ignorance on the subject of German and other herp keeping.
> 
> Though i do understand that it may already be too late.
> 
> ...


The situation is quite complex and rather politically sensitive; back in 2003 we formed what was called EUFORA (European Forum for Reptiles and Amphibians). This was the brain child of Ingo Pauler the then head of the German herpetological society DGHT. Some information on the organisation can be found here: http://www.isv.or.at/artenschutz/eufora.htm

Unfortunately when Ingo retired in 2007 or thereabouts EUFORA for want of a better term fell apart, for the passed couple of years I have endeavoured to breath life back into EUFORA for the very reason we are discussing today, sadly it has not happened. 

We desperately need EUFORA or a similar organisation to unite keepers across the EU because the battles today are pan European.


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## stuarttaylor37 (Jan 5, 2008)

Originally Posted by Spikebrit 
"Totally agree, the EPS list removed some of my own favourate species. People then said it would never work, just like they are now. It came into place and already you no longer see any of those listed on the EPS list available for sale, or even kept"

I think you'll find most of the EPS animals still being kept and traded.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

stuarttaylor37 said:


> Originally Posted by Spikebrit
> "Totally agree, the EPS list removed some of my own favourate species. People then said it would never work, just like they are now. It came into place and already you no longer see any of those listed on the EPS list available for sale, or even kept"
> 
> I think you'll find most of the EPS animals still being kept and traded.


i'll rephase, The EPS animals are not being kept legally nor traded legally. it wont be many years untill there is only a very limited capative population as without open, legal, trading it is very difficult to maintain breading groups and blood lines. 

There will always be a few underground keepers, but the volume and size is significantly reduced. 

Jay


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Chris Newman said:


> The situation is quite complex and rather politically sensitive; back in 2003 we formed what was called EUFORA (European Forum for Reptiles and Amphibians). This was the brain child of Ingo Pauler the then head of the German herpetological society DGHT. Some information on the organisation can be found here: http://www.isv.or.at/artenschutz/eufora.htm
> 
> Unfortunately when Ingo retired in 2007 or thereabouts EUFORA for want of a better term fell apart, for the passed couple of years I have endeavoured to breath life back into EUFORA for the very reason we are discussing today, sadly it has not happened.
> 
> We desperately need EUFORA or a similar organisation to unite keepers across the EU because the battles today are pan European.


I was unaware of the EUFORA, and it was a very interesting read. 

It would be lovly to bring together a group of EU keepers that could fight and run EUFORA. However, as with anything, you need a leader that can ralley and manage everyone together, as without a leader everyting crumbles. 

Chris, on a side note if there is anything that needs doing or helping, please feel free to ask. 

Jay


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## stuarttaylor37 (Jan 5, 2008)

Spikebrit said:


> i'll rephase, The EPS animals are not being kept legally nor traded legally. it wont be many years untill there is only a very limited capative population as without open, legal, trading it is very difficult to maintain breading groups and blood lines.
> 
> There will always be a few underground keepers, but the volume and size is significantly reduced.
> 
> Jay


I am keeping them legally,trading them legally and swapping stock legally with other keepers. With careful maintenance of records there is no reason why the captive population cannot be continued?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

stuarttaylor37 said:


> I think you'll find most of the EPS animals still being kept and traded.


Would like to know who's keeping and breeding and trading Sheltos... as I said, one of my partner's favourite species.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

stuarttaylor37 said:


> I am keeping them legally,trading them legally and swapping stock legally with other keepers. With careful maintenance of records there is no reason why the captive population cannot be continued?


I dont seem to see many people openly admitting to it. Glad to see a few people exist. 

I would be interested to know, how confident you are in your records that you can prove CB status. This is my only worry. Especially as, at the moment there is no guidelines, nor has their been a court case to support set any guidelines either. 

Jay


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## stuarttaylor37 (Jan 5, 2008)

Spikebrit said:


> I dont seem to see many people openly admitting to it. Glad to see a few people exist.
> 
> I would be interested to know, how confident you are in your records that you can prove CB status. This is my only worry. Especially as, at the moment there is no guidelines, nor has their been a court case to support set any guidelines either.
> 
> Jay


 Stock that I buy comes with paperwork from the breeder to prove that they are CB. If I breed and sell EPS then I keep records of who bought them and I offer a receipt to prove that I bred them (some people want them, others don't).

I am 100% confident that I am operating within the Law


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## stuarttaylor37 (Jan 5, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> Would like to know who's keeping and breeding and trading Sheltos... as I said, one of my partner's favourite species.


 I would try making enquiries in Europe


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Whilst the EPS regs are now in place, they have not [as yet] been enforced, until they are we have no idea what requirements a Court would deem as acceptable proof of legal holding. Pieces of paper issued by breeders are just that – pieces of paper. Would a Court accept that as proof? I rather doubt it!!

Look at what is happening with British Birds, again the legislation pertaining to legal ownership rest with Natural England. Recently there have been a flurry of prosecutions against keepers, not a shred of evidence is produced to support the birds were ‘illegally’ taken, indeed the Court recognises this fact there is no evidence o prove the birds are illegal. Nevertheless the keepers are unable to prove the birds concerned, or the parents of the birds concerned were acquired lawfully so they keep is found guilty of an offence, fined heavily and the Court orders the seizure and destruction of the birds – some of them are very rare birds in the UK.

Personally I doubt anyone can prove species they hold covered by the EPS regs are in fact legal!! The burden of proof falls to the keeper, not the prosecutor!


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## stuarttaylor37 (Jan 5, 2008)

Chris Newman said:


> Whilst the EPS regs are now in place, they have not [as yet] been enforced, until they are we have no idea what requirements a Court would deem as acceptable proof of legal holding. Pieces of paper issued by breeders are just that – pieces of paper. Would a Court accept that as proof? I rather doubt it!!
> 
> Look at what is happening with British Birds, again the legislation pertaining to legal ownership rest with Natural England. Recently there have been a flurry of prosecutions against keepers, not a shred of evidence is produced to support the birds were ‘illegally’ taken, indeed the Court recognises this fact there is no evidence o prove the birds are illegal. Nevertheless the keepers are unable to prove the birds concerned, or the parents of the birds concerned were acquired lawfully so they keep is found guilty of an offence, fined heavily and the Court orders the seizure and destruction of the birds – some of them are very rare birds in the UK.
> 
> Personally I doubt anyone can prove species they hold covered by the EPS regs are in fact legal!! The burden of proof falls to the keeper, not the prosecutor!


I cant help but feel that there is a bit of scaremongering going on generally.

If there have been no prosecutions (and therefore no legal precedents set) several years after the EPS were introduced then that would suggest to me that either the authorities are happy with the current protection afforded to the wild animals and subsequent restrictions on trade, or they lack the will or resources to pursue a test case through the courts.

As far as a court accepting a written document as proof of CB status, if I understand the legislation correctly that is exactly what happens under the German system (Bundesnaturschutzgesetz). I would imagine a case bought to court questioning CB status under the enforcement of the EPS regs would look legally very weak if CB status is deemed legal under another Federal law. (I am aware that EPS Regulation may well override National Law, but if a keeper had taken all reasonable and responsible steps under one law designed to protect wild animals from exploitation, then how could they sensibly be successfully (legally) prosecuted under a different regulation designed to do exactly the same?!)
At the end of the day your birth certificate is generally accepted as being a legal document determining your origins-or am I being ridiculously niave?

I am afraid I have no idea what is happening with British birds. However, on the burden of proof issue I have an E-mail from NE that states in the case of the EPS the reverse burden of proof does not apply. So, with the greatest of respect, I remain 100% confident that I am operating within the law.
Regards
Stuart


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

stuarttaylor37 said:


> I cant help but feel that there is a bit of scaremongering going on generally.
> 
> If there have been no prosecutions (and therefore no legal precedents set) several years after the EPS were introduced then that would suggest to me that either the authorities are happy with the current protection afforded to the wild animals and subsequent restrictions on trade, or they lack the will or resources to pursue a test case through the courts.
> 
> ...


The UK was forced into implementing the European Protected Species Regulations under the Habitat Directive, very much against its will. It was made clear at the time whilst being forced to implement it, they would not be proactive on enforcement – a unique occurrence! 

Notwithstanding this the regulations are in place and _could_ be enforced! The parallels behind this legislation and the one affecting British Bird keepers is near identical, the _only_ difference is it appears the bird legislation can be enforced by private bodies and the EPS regs _appear_ to only be enforceable by government agencies. There are also parallels to be drawn with COTES [Controls of Trade in Endangered Species] legislation. Here people who were 100% certain they could prove legality of the animals they held were legal found out very much to their cost they couldn’t and the animals forfeit. I would very much advice against complacency, the threat of having animals seized and destroyed is very real, it _could_ happen – it only requires a change in government policy!

The fundamental problem is we have no safeguards to protect keepers, some of us fort very hard to get measures in place to protect keepers when the legislation was introduced, to know avail. We do not know what ‘proof’ would be required by a Court, and until we have the first prosecutions we will not know. However, I am circumspect how much weight a Court will attach to paper records held/produced by keepers. The only animals 100% safe are those holding SSC A10’s I would suspect, and there are precious few of those in terms of species!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

stuarttaylor37 said:


> I have an E-mail from NE that states in the case of the EPS the reverse burden of proof does not apply.


That's interesting, because the regulation itself says the reverse burden of proof DOES apply - the keeper has to prove on the balance of evidence that their animal is legal.

I also corresponded with Natural England regarding EPS species and whether a private keeper could obtain a licence to keep animals that *didn't* come with documentary proof (since it wasn't required for animals purchased in England from someone else in England prior to 2007), and their suggestion for what to do with the animals I held involved donating them to a museum.... because the licences aren't geared towards enabling private keepers to keep or breed their pets in captivity.


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## stuarttaylor37 (Jan 5, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> That's interesting, because the regulation itself says the reverse burden of proof DOES apply - the keeper has to prove on the balance of evidence that their animal is legal.
> 
> I also corresponded with Natural England regarding EPS species and whether a private keeper could obtain a licence to keep animals that *didn't* come with documentary proof (since it wasn't required for animals purchased in England from someone else in England prior to 2007), and their suggestion for what to do with the animals I held involved donating them to a museum.... because the licences aren't geared towards enabling private keepers to keep or breed their pets in captivity.


Interesting indeed because I was advised by NE to apply for a license for any animals that I may have which did not have any documentary evidence! (All mine do, so I didn't need to)
And I have pointed out to them I am only a private keeper/breeder.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

stuarttaylor37 said:


> Interesting indeed because I was advised by NE to apply for a license for any animals that I may have which did not have any documentary evidence! (All mine do, so I didn't need to)
> And I have pointed out to them I am only a private keeper/breeder.


For any wild taken specimens Natural England would *require* documentary proof the specimens were taken lawfully – they *would not* simple issue licences on request without such proof! Licenses are only required for wild taken specimens, captive bred specimens do not require a licences but the burden of proof rests with the keeper.


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## stuarttaylor37 (Jan 5, 2008)

Chris Newman said:


> For any wild taken specimens Natural England would *require* documentary proof the specimens were taken lawfully – they *would not* simple issue licences on request without such proof! Licenses are only required for wild taken specimens, captive bred specimens do not require a licences but the burden of proof rests with the keeper.


I am only repeating what I was informed by Natural England (I have retained the E-mail for future reference). As I am not in a position to predict the actions of NE nor do I wish to argue with you then I suggest if that information I have been given contradicts your understanding, then take it up with them?


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

stuarttaylor37 said:


> I am only repeating what I was informed by Natural England (I have retained the E-mail for future reference). As I am not in a position to predict the actions of NE nor do I wish to argue with you then I suggest if that information I have been given contradicts your understanding, then take it up with them?


The problem with English Nature is the advice given depends upon with whom you speak, much like other governmental departments [agencies]. Animal Health is a prime example; they will tell you one thing when they actual requirements are totally different! My advice to any keepers is simply not to be complacent.


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## Theegrimrobe (Oct 16, 2010)

*Oh dear*

More eu crap we dont want or need

They ought to just get their disgusting noses out of our business


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## JR.Exotics (Mar 24, 2011)

I heard this isnt even happening now and that they thought better of it!! lol but anyway i dont care about this so called "ban" as i have phoned numerous pet shops and none of them have been told anything about the meetings... so peace out everyone! : victory:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

If you note, I never once said that I was worried about this supposed ban.

What I said was, if you want to protect the future of our hobby, then you should sub to something like the IHS, who lobby to protect this hobby, and have done for a long time now, helping to fight off the numerous attempts to ban the keeping of exotics of various sorts.

The FACT is, without groups like these, lobbying and fighting to protect our rights, sooner or later bans WILL come into force, it's just a matter of time.

So think to the future, support our hobby by supporting the lobbying groups.

That's all I have been saying all along.

As to your statements in that post, evidence or it never happened, it's that simple. I have read the evidence of the EU trying to put this through, I have seen NONE to the contrary. A shop telling you they've heard nothing is the absence of evidence, and proves nothing except the ignorance of that shop.

Peace out yourself, and enjoy your blinkers.

Ade


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

JR.Exotics said:


> I heard this isnt even happening now and that they thought better of it!! lol but anyway i dont care about this so called "ban" as i have phoned numerous pet shops and none of them have been told anything about the meetings... so peace out everyone! : victory:


you really do go round in rose coloured specks dont you. 

You go back to talking to shops and other people. An those with two brain cells to rub together can go and read the evidence on the Eu website regarding the proposition. 

As stated earlier on, evidence of it is on the Eu website, and in their information packs, meaning it is/has been discussed so is a possibility. End of. Shops will not hve been informed, or know anything about it unless they pay attention to legal discussion in Eu meetings which is unlikly. 

Anyway, i'm tired of going around in circles with you, as it's completly poitless discussing aything with you since you dont read any facts presented to you. 

have fun 
Jay


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## TommyBurt (Dec 14, 2009)

one of the main reasons i got interested in reptiles,amphibians and insects was because of the biodiversity and science of their biology and i became interested in keeping and learning about them i don't believe in keeping wild caught animals i also think it is somewhat unfair that this ban might come into affect from people not using their heads and releasing their animals into the local environment when their are those of us who would never do such a thing however i believe they should do whatever it takes to protect the local biodiversity. and other places which have more diverse envoirments like new guinea for example should be even stricter considering most of the worlds species reside in rainforest regions.

i do believe there must be other ways to protect our ecosystems from this hazard


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

so did anything happen?


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## Josh R (Jan 14, 2008)

This is completely stupid and here's why:

Say a mexican red knee tarantula get's released into the wild.

1) It would not survive in the harsh conditions of EU countries

2) The only chance of the Red knee breeding and the numbers increasing would be for it to find another red knee of opposite sex (that chance of this happening is less then you winning the lottery i'm guessing)

This is hence another reason to vote UKIP so we can leave the EU..


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

sambridge15 said:


> so did anything happen?


I beleive we are still waiting on the final outcome. 

however, i beleive compaining by Chris and others have pritty much seen the worse options crushed, so all is looking good so far. 

Jay


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Josh R said:


> This is completely stupid and here's why:
> 
> Say a mexican red knee tarantula get's released into the wild.
> 
> ...


If it couldnt surrive in the EU, it would never have been considered to be on a list so would be fine. I dont see your point at all as you contredict yourself. 

But anyway all is looking good. 

Jay


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## kezzbag (Jan 16, 2011)

i agree with the others and morgan....iv had idiot mates that just buy on impulse and dont kno the first thing about the pet..one mate bought a tarantula and wondered why it died because he kept it in the same tub he bought it in!!......iv researched for about 3 months so far and have my set up and 1 grey tree frog atm......i want to get some more but rather than just going out and buying what looks pretty or unusual iv been asking advice on here lol.......

there should be a permit or licence to keep potentionaly invasive species full stop and maybe a ban list on the most dangerous


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

Josh R said:


> This is completely stupid and here's why:
> 
> Say a mexican red knee tarantula get's released into the wild.
> 
> ...


learn some basic economic information leaving the eu would be a very bad idea ecenomically(though ill agree they need to let us run our own country and remain as a trading block not the united states of the eu) and also read what was actually proposed if it could survive anywhere in the eu encluding the hotter climates it could theoreticaly be banned across the entire eu due to free trade making it difficult to prevent blacklisted species from 1 nation being sent to another


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

sambridge15 said:


> learn some basic economic information leaving the eu would be a very bad idea ecenomically(though ill agree they need to let us run our own country and remain as a trading block not the united states of the eu) and also read what was actually proposed if it could survive anywhere in the eu encluding the hotter climates it could theoreticaly be banned across the entire eu due to free trade making it difficult to prevent blacklisted species from 1 nation being sent to another


Demonstrated perfectly by the illegal trade in crayfish here in the UK with species like the CPO (Cambarellus Patzcuarensis 'Orange') regularly showing up in aquarium stores, despite been illegal to keep or sell in the UK (only the redclaw cray is legal, with the signal cray been legal in certain parts of the country where it has already become naturalised). In fact, crayfish really are a perfect example of invasive species causing problems. It's not necessarily even the competing for food or habitat element a lot of the time, but rather the fact that often they can be carriers of a disease that native species have no immunity to (crayfish plague in American crayfish been a case in point).

HOWEVER, although I DO support tighter regulations governing the keeping of invasive and possibly harmful to native species animals, I also believe that this should NOT be an EU wide law, but rather one left to member countries, as is the case with crayfish (the UK is the ONLY European country with a ban in place). Leaving the EU is NOT the answer to this, lobbying and having a voice is, which is where groups like the IHS etc come in.

Even if this attempt at regulation is never passed, you can bet your bottom dollar another potentially harmful to the hobby one will get fielded, history tells us this. We already can't buy small bent bananas. :lol2: Without politically minded lobbying groups fighting our corner, sooner or later we WILL get a law passed like this.

Ade


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## Callum_CWD (Mar 29, 2011)

gartergoon said:


> ssthiso wrote this below i think its a clearer point of what can happen :2thumb:
> 
> [URL="http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/avatars/ssthisto.gif?dateline=1188625257"]image[/URL] Ssthisto image
> Read. Think. THEN write.
> ...


 
You dont have to keep them for life you can trade you dont have to sell?!?!?! :lol2:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Callum_CWD said:


> You dont have to keep them for life you can trade you dont have to sell?!?!?! :lol2:


Generally when they make laws restricting the "sale" of animals they also account for the concept of "trading" them for non-cash items.

So, for example, although you can "gift" a tortoise that is missing its Article 10 document, you cannot legally take anything in exchange for the tortoise.


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## Caleb (Oct 21, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Generally when they make laws restricting the "sale" of animals they also account for the concept of "trading" them for non-cash items.


I was just reading yesterday about a case where two guys were prosecuted (and fined £7000) under the Wildlife & Countryside act after exchanging labour for bluebell bulbs:

BBC NEWS | Wales | Men fined for bluebell bulbs sale

So in this case, there was not even a non-cash item involved!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

True, I should have said "non-cash goods or services".


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