# Community Vivaria



## strictly_scales (Sep 10, 2008)

Ok... I know whats going to happen- I'm going to get slated by most of you guys for this thread, but please just read it and have a think. If you don't like it, I'm happy to agree to disagree...

Firstly, I would like to make it perfectly clear from the start that I know exactly what I am doing, have many years experience, and probably spend at least 2 hours a day working with my Reptiles.

So, Community Vivaria.

I have 2 that I will discuss in detail, just to throw this topic out into the open- both of these Vivs have been running for quite a while with the species housed, without any problems of any description. All animals were treated for any problems and quarantined before inclusion into the working communities.

No.1 Semi desert/ Savannah Lizard Viv

Dimensions: 4ft x 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft
Heating/ Illumination: 150 Watt tight beam basking spot, UVB 10.0 tube, heatmat
Species housed: 1.2 Bearded Dragons, 1 Plated Lizard, 1.0 Horsfield Tortoise, 1 Blue Tongued Skink.

How/why it works: 

1: Plenty of hides and large basking areas:
Large rock pile in hot corner with numerous hides, large basking slate, elevated to 15 inches from bulb, providing shade beneath, 2 and a half square foot inbuilt cave with removable lid, providing large cool hide, large cork bark section on top, providing a third hide.

2: A soil sand substrate mixture, sand heavy at the hot end, soil heavy at the cooler end, with a little aspen and a few pebbles mixed in. The large hide is stuffed with aspen, and the soil racked up at the cooler end to a depth of 4 inches. Live plants have been added as and when to this end of the enclosure. 

3: A large waters edge style water dish at the cooler end, with 2 feeding dishes, one for Veg, the other for Mealies/ Morios if necessary, located variously around the Viv. Any other bugs are simply thrown in to enable all lizards to forage. 

Before building this enclosure, which was always intended to house multiple species, I researched the needs of every single species copiously, and designed the Viv around that. For example, there is a visual barrier at the base of the Viv to benefit the tortoise, the deep substrate areas coupled with the soil sand mixture allow the Beardies to tunnel naturally (and yes, they breed quite happily in there) etc. This Viv has been in operation for 18 months now, with no problems at all. Every single animal is very fit and healthy, and I have seen some of the best captive behaviours as a result.

No.2 Sub tropical/ Tropical Arboreal Snake Viv.

Dimensions: 3 ft x 1.5 ft x 4 ft
Heating/ Illumination: 1x 75 Watt infra-red bulb, 1 Heat Mat
Species housed: 1.1 Taiwan Beauty, 1.0 Boiga cyanea, group of Madagascan Hissing and Deaths Head Cockroaches.

Ok you militant snake keepers, this ones just for you. 

After reading some of de Vosjolii's literature on the proper care of snakes, I decided to apply his bioactive substrate theory to a snake Viv, and take it one step further. The substrate is a 4 inch layer of a soil/ compost mixture that had been fermenting and being broken down into a mulh by Cockroaches, GALS and Giant Millipedes for about 2 years. This was bulked out with leaf litter and bark chips. On the floor of the enclosure there are 3 seperate hides and a large water dish. For the rest of the enclosure, a mesh of branches, vines and artificial plants allow for ample climbing opportunities, and arboreal hides allow shelter, particularly for the Boiga.

The Boiga was never meant to go into this enclosure- this was an experiment with Bioactive substrates and the use of detritivores (which incidentally means this Viv never needs to be spot cleaned as all waste is consumed and broken down by invertebrates and bacteria, as it would in the wild). However, the Boiga is doing better than he ever did alone, strike feeding like a trooper. I would go as far to say that everything in the Viv is positively thriving.

This enclosure only works because of the use of a variety of microclimes within the enclosure- there are humid areas, dry areas, warm areas, basking areas and cool areas. 

I'm not saying this is the right way to keep these animals; I'm not saying it's the wrong way. I'm simply saying that it can work, does work, is very rewarding when it does work, and looks very impressive.

Research is the key, coupled with calculated risk and being prepared to step in if it doesn't work how you wanted it to. Positive feedback welcomed.


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## makeitandskateit (Jun 15, 2008)

the first viv sounds way to small for all those lizards. By my calculations it's only just big enough for the beardies let alone the others. It would have to be atleast 6'+ for the lizards to safely live along side each other, (although when mixing species it can never by safe). Also I'm not sure about the horsefield, I know beardies and BT's and they can be very annoying!!! You will need to keep a very close eye on things to pull this one off.

When it comes down to it, housing differant species is very risky and you're putting there lives in danger.
you can never be too careful.


I would never consider doing this but I guess it is just as unnatural for the animal to be with animals of differant origins than it is us taking them out the wild and putting them in captivity.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

ok.. i'm ready


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## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

He's not wrong there about dimensions of vivs. 3 beardies will easily fill and dominate that space, id personally have it double that, possibly even room sized and create niche habitats within the room allowing the animals to roam between them.

Id love to see photos though. Zoo's do cohabit and it does work in some cases. How does feeding work? Especially in savannah viv, how do you ensure each animal gets correct nutrition without one species hogging food.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

when zoo's cohabit though they usually have bigger enclosures than 4ft.


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## strictly_scales (Sep 10, 2008)

In my experience, which I assure you is substantial, I've found that utilisation of space is more important than actual physical space. Nutritionally, I ensure everything is fed a wide range, suitable for each species. I formulated my own supplement powder to meet the demands of everything in my collection that requires dietary supplementation. I ensure that the dietary requirements of each animal are meant by simply observing them- behaviourally and physically. If an animal isn't doing well, I will seperate it and set it up in a more suitable habitat. My priority is for the well being of my animals- nothing suffers, and everything is extremely fit and healthy. The quality of my livestock speaks for itself. 

As I clearly stated, I do not recommend this for everyone, and do not claim it to be the right way. However, done correctly, it can be a very impressive sight. 

At the end of the day, the British are way behind Continental keepers in their reptile keeping, and without such experiments, how could we ever learn to better our care and understanding of these animals.


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*Community vivaria*

*I presume everyone who thinks the idea of a community vivarium is ridiculous and stupid are the ones who believe everything they read and also think that such things should only be seen in zoo's.

I also run my own community viv housing several different species of lizard and so far it has gone ridiculously well, none of my animals fight, infact they seem to enjoy eachothers company with many of them spread out on top of each other underneath the heat lamps, as for feeding - again no problems or fighting.

Alot of people over estimate how much space an animals needs, if its too big you moan, if its too small you moan. as long as my animals are in top form and are feeding well, shedding well and their behaviour is as its always been then i know 100% that i am doing the right thing.

2 bearded dragons in one viv is fine, lovely, 4-5 different species living together all perfectly happy is a rare and satisfying thing to see. - I am all for it, obviously it can only be done by someone who knows their animals, and only a true herpetologist/experienced reptile keeper can put a voice to that.*


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## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

Pictures please.

Scarlet Rain - what species do you have?


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

I keep 2 bosc monitor (babies) 1 sudanese plated lizard, 1 brisbane blue tongued skink and a bearded dragon all as a community viv.

I also house a pink tongued skink with a juvenile green iguana.

=Happy lizards.


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## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

I take you will be moving the boscs once they've grown.

Soemthing interesting is that its obvious you mix species from different continents that would share similar biomes. If i were to do it id probably tend towards picking species that would occur in the same region and try and recreate a small part of that region within the vivarium.

I think you have to be careful in regards to saying they enjoy each others company and that they're happy. That is a very anthropocentric view of it, we dont know how intraspecies socialisation works within lizards and if any form bonds or partnerships. It is all obviously very interesting and i do agree UK keepers are behind in regards to European keepers. Just pick up a European book and you'll see the lengths they go in decorating and constructing vivariums.

Scarlet what size vivarium is this all in?

I think the OP's viv are way too small, and one heating source is not great, 2 would allow any species that did ever fight access to a heat source regardless of whether one was being used. 

Strictly - You've obviously spent alot of time constructing microecosystems within these vivariums but what happens when it comes to cleaning? The system isnt big enough to have a fully working bacteria/water/carbon/nitrogen cycle so therefore there will be an accumulation of these over time. How do you combat this? Gut the viv every 6 months and start a fresh?


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

Yeah you have some good points there, i know i am crossing Australian with African, but hey is there any reason it shouldnt work? its purely experimantal and in due course when i aquire more species i will have 2 communities - one of purely africa and one of australia. the boscs are only there for a little while, there is no way i would risk a growing bosc with my other lizards - far too risky as you know 

and as for the behavioural side - there is so much controversy on the relationships and bonds between reptiles etc, but this is exactly what i am most interested in and will go on to study in higher education and also for the restof my life, i personally couldnt answer but what i see now is more of a tolerance, as long as each individual has all their needs catered for they wont be in competition like they would in the wild, and this is what divides them form their wild cousins - a captive bred animal is slightly removed from one born into the wild , of course they still have their survival instincts but you really cant compare too much. 

if that makes sense (its late do forgive me)


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## strictly_scales (Sep 10, 2008)

Cheers Zak, for not just biting off my head on this one.

It's true, we have much to learn about inter-specific and intra-specific relationships between species. Ideally I would keep just species from one locality, planted out with native flora- this is what I am working towards. And yes, niche specialists would make for a more effective community in the long run. 

And yes, the snake community is a little on the small size, but it has worked very effectively, and I'm planning a larger scale version. The substrate combined with the cockroaches should be self sustaining, as the mulch used is very mature- slimy to the feel as de Vosjolii describes it. The tank is lightly misted twice a day, in order to keep the bioactive substrate working effectively, although I need to start mixing it on a weekly basis. Other regions of the enclosure are more heavily misted, in order to create these micro-climes, for example the Boigas hide of choice and one bottom corner.

Pictures of both Vivs are on their way, and yet more community vivaria are in the pipeline- I really think there is a place for them in modern reptile keeping. I have a term- "Zoo-standard", this is the level I work to.


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

That was viv with plated and bosc seen in photo,
next is iguana and pink tongued viv, not seen as they are asleep in their hides


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

My community viv could not be shot in one photo as i could not get the angle, but the space for all species kept is more than sufficient


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## strictly_scales (Sep 10, 2008)

*Pictures as requested*








There are pictures of both on my page on reptileforums- you're welcome to have a look there- I can't be dealing with photo bucket right now...


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## Caboose (Dec 13, 2008)

it depends what subspecies of bt it is....

some need high humidity... and if your bt needs high humidity (which im guessing is a T.gigas subspecies then it needs high humidity)



oh yeah depends but bluetongues can kill eachother when housed together...

they will not tolorate the nature of dragons

i've seen pictures of that, its not nice


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## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> Yeah you have some good points there, i know i am crossing Australian with African, but hey is there any reason it shouldnt work? its purely experimantal and in due course when i aquire more species i will have 2 communities - one of purely africa and one of australia. the boscs are only there for a little while, there is no way i would risk a growing bosc with my other lizards - far too risky as you know
> 
> and as for the behavioural side - there is so much controversy on the relationships and bonds between reptiles etc, but this is exactly what i am most interested in and will go on to study in higher education and also for the restof my life, i personally couldnt answer but what i see now is more of a tolerance, as long as each individual has all their needs catered for they wont be in competition like they would in the wild, and this is what divides them form their wild cousins - a captive bred animal is slightly removed from one born into the wild , of course they still have their survival instincts but you really cant compare too much.
> 
> if that makes sense (its late do forgive me)


The mixing of species from different continents wasnt a criticism merely a observation. As you have said the care for those species is very similar so there's no reason they could not live in the same habitat, they've just evolved in different countries.

Tolerance is most likely what is being exhibit but due to the nature of the enclosure it would be interesting to see if any bonds do form between the species and if that is what you want to do as your life then the first hand experience you're recieving is fabulous.



> Pictures of both Vivs are on their way, and yet more community vivaria are in the pipeline- I really think there is a place for them in modern reptile keeping. I have a term- "Zoo-standard", this is the level I work to.


Again the comments werent criticisms more observations, there is no book written on this so im simply putting how id do it.

I think the UK has a long way to go before we see community vivs as a common thing. Theres too much scaremongering within the community. We need to move animals off newspaper and onto natural substrates first (i hate this cotton wool mentality we've got into, they're wild animals for christs sake, in some capacitys they're more capable than us!) What you two are doing is both interesting and obviously scientifically informed. Id love to see and hear any more work you do on these communities. Id love to have an entire room set up one, planted out correctly with both seasonal and daily weather changes and just allow species to roam within it (i can dream).


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## htd100 (Feb 26, 2006)

At first I though this thread was a wind up to cause contraversy. The only question is why you want mix these species? It seems like abit of a headache keeping track of all the potenal problems that might occur.

If I was to try this id have a camera set up in the vivs so I could realy see whats going on.


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

Nah, cameras are not needed, i spend a couple of hours a day sorting things out and checking they are all ok. I really just can't understand why people are so against it, is there something im missing out here? Strictlys community viv has been running for over a year now, surely if any problems would have arisen they would had done so already?

The fact that i have witnessed on several occasions a Female Taiwan and a male boiga sharing the same basking spot, and the same branch, really speaks for its self.


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

I for one believe many species can be housed together if the keeper has the knowledge and experience to do so.Im not saying they should be housed together,only that it can work given enough planning and foresight.My only gripe with the set-ups shown so far is space-this i think is the key to success,as in the much larger zoo enclosures.When i first started keeping herps as a kid,i had mixed vivs (mainly down to over-enthuasism,and a lack of knowledge),however,they did work-i had tokays in a 4ft viv with temporalis dragons,and in another viv-anoles,various tree frogs and long-tails.A further point is-Tropical community fish tanks,why are these not flamed for exacting the same principles,usually with much wider ranging species housed together? My main tank has species from all over the world,but chosen carefully with planning.It works.


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## strictly_scales (Sep 10, 2008)

Thank you all for your comments- Zak, ure point about how we cotton wrap everything is spot on- at the end of the day, reptiles are amongst the oldest and most adaptable animals on the Planet. And Berber King, I was contemplating the exact same thing with the Community Aquaria idea today- 20-30 years ago in Aquaculture people would have baulked at the idea of mixing say Barbs with Tetra, but now it's commonplace, and trouble free (if you mix the right species of course). 

I'm going to keep developing the Community Viv idea, ignore the bigotry, and when I finally write the book on them, a signed copy to each of you. Heres to encouraging the European method of keeping reptiles.


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## boots_n_braces (Jan 11, 2009)

Nice, id love to have a community viv if i had thetime and the space to do it right! an old neighbour used to have a huge tank with an stuary style setup and crabs, water snakes and fish all in together and it was awesome watching them interact a lot of planning and hard work though! ive recently moved my redtail into a living viv and he loves it ive never seen him so happy and also so relaxed for what was a very timid snake


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## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

strictly_scales said:


> I'm going to keep developing the Community Viv idea, ignore the bigotry, and when I finally write the book on them, a signed copy to each of you. Heres to encouraging the European method of keeping reptiles.


Ill hold you too that!

Community vivaria is something i will definitely investigate but at the moment it is not practical, which again is a problem associated with that. Peoples collections seem so large now that its quantity over quality and that they dont have the time to invest in something like community vivs. The transient trend of reptiles at the moment also inhibits it, they buy and sell so quickly, looking for flavour of the month. For me its space and the fact im in rented accom, but come June fingers cross have bigger home and space to make my own little ecosystem


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## TW (May 1, 2007)

strictly_scales said:


> No.2 Sub tropical/ Tropical Arboreal Snake Viv.
> 
> Dimensions: 3 ft x 1.5 ft x 4 ft
> Heating/ Illumination: 1x 75 Watt infra-red bulb, 1 Heat Mat
> ...


Firstly i'm not disagreeing or agreeing as i dont know enough but i have a few questions...

Do you not get problems keeping a male and female Tai together? Mating etc..? Also Tai are only semi arboreal. As they get 8Ft + a floor space of 4ft min should be offered. I would be hesitant to house one in your viv let alone 3 snakes? Are they adults? What size?

How do you go about feeding? Take them out of the viv? Feed in the viv? Are they all strike feeders?

Boiga are snake eaters? Why would you want keep them with other snakes? Was he not a strike feeder before but suddenly became one? Share you experience..

How do you get a warm area of 30c a cool area of 20c with 22c ish in the middle and a ambient temp of 28c which should be offered for these snakes in such a small viv? Also how can you have humid areas and not humid in such a small space?

And finaly please answer honestly, if you were to house all these snakes/animals to the recommended guidelines would you have enough room at your place? And be able to afford all equipment for the different setups?


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## The Roach Hut (Mar 29, 2008)

makeitandskateit said:


> the first viv sounds way to small for all those lizards. By my calculations it's only just big enough for the beardies let alone the others. It would have to be atleast 6'+ for the lizards to safely live along side each other, (although when mixing species it can never by safe). Also I'm not sure about the horsefield, I know beardies and BT's and they can be very annoying!!! You will need to keep a very close eye on things to pull this one off.
> 
> When it comes down to it, housing differant species is very risky and you're putting there lives in danger.
> you can never be too careful.
> ...


 I totally agree with this way to small for all those and i stil think that mixing species is a bad idea wether u had issues or not all it means is that u been lucky so far. i just built an 8x3x3 and wouldnt house that lot in it...

and no matter what u say there is no way on this blue plannet u could replicate all the needs for so many species in such a small viv your just making do and personally if u dont have the room or money for seperate vivs then i suggest sticking to one species.

you were right about one thing though i think your going to get a lot of negativity around this and you proberbly have researched it a great deal but u run the risk of interspecies transfer of illnesses and so on.

that being said i wish u well with what you do and these words are only my opinion and not ment to offend you in any way


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## reptiles_galore (Aug 13, 2008)

i must say it all sounds very intresting,. the only one thing i will say is the size. my beardie is currently in a 3ft viv and will be needing a 4ft viv soon. there would not be very much room for more than 2 or 3 beardies to physicaly move around in a viv you trying to use for many diffrent species.


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## Circe (Dec 31, 2008)

I find this a very interesting thread as I have been wanting to set up a community viv for a very long time. Lack of courage more than anything has stopped me. 
I have never understood though why we feel we have to seperate species; and even male and females of the same species other than at breeding time. Last year I had living with me my dog, a cat and a magpie. We all co-habited in perfect harmony and in between I looked after other peoples' dogs. There were never any problems. Any time I've had animals they have usually shared my living space - including an adult Water Dragon and a couple of grown up terrapins - for some years when my children were small. The reptiles had a proper viv that they could let themselves in or out of at will - the dragon tended to go in to feed and then bask around the house, generally on the stairs which led up from french windows (these made the room like a greenhouse). I also had a baby bath with water in, which the reptiles could use for bathing. THis was kept in the viv so that the mammals would not knock it over. When I had them they lived in harmony with cats, dogs and occasionally my geese who would wander in from the garden if I let them. However they did't often do this as I kept the french doors shut for obvious reasons. I used to take in and rehome animals, so there was generally a choice of creatures if they had been quarantined for long enough before they were rehomed. No one ever tried to eat anyone else though I didn't let small birds out as the cats would have killed them.
My snakes live seperately from each other these days as I don't know that I could set up a vivarium large enough to provide the needs of all adequately. I have thought of it though and will check this thread with interest regularly.


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## trigger (Jan 6, 2009)

My beardies are in a viv 9ft x 2ft x 3ft. Having read this thread am now thinking about putting my Horsfield in with them.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

strictly_scales said:


> At the end of the day, the British are way behind Continental keepers in their reptile keeping, and without such experiments, how could we ever learn to better our care and understanding of these animals.





strictly_scales said:


> I really think there is a place for them in modern reptile keeping. I have a term- "Zoo-standard", this is the level I work to.





strictly_scales said:


> I'm going to keep developing the Community Viv idea, ignore the bigotry, and when I finally write the book on them, a signed copy to each of you. Heres to encouraging the European method of keeping reptiles.


Firstly, it's going to be obvious that I 100% disagree with your ethics and supposed reasoning.

What bothers me massively when people come along doing this sort of thing is the way greed and plain risk taking with living organisms, is dressed up in pseudo-scientific rubbish about experimenting in order to learn anything, pushing boundaries and observing behaviours for the benefit of all including the animals we keep.
Nonsense.

There is no science in this, these are not "experiments" in any factually revealing sense of the term and this is NOT the "European method" nor is it "Zoo standard".

The enclosures are FAR too small for this kind of practice, the species choices are similar-ish in environment at best, almost random at worst...

I'm obviously a bigot and I'll have to just stick with the dark ages as I'm not prepared to sling all manner of animals in together for laughs or greed.
I look forward to reading your book!!!

Lotte***
P.S: Yes I do work with 9 mixed exhibits daily, I guarantee you, they do not resemble these scenarios whatsoever. I apologise as no one is going to like this, I just feel very strongly


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

I too have been keeping multi-species vivs for a long time, at least 20 years.
Never tried it with big animals, mostly small.
Size of the viv is not always what it seems because plants can increase the surface area for animals to move on.
I believe that once you move into the area of a naturalistic viv it leads you into a multi-species viv because it's unnatural for any animal to live in isolation. 
On the amphibian thread I listed the animals that I've kept in one viv if any one wants to read it.
Like the original poster I wanted a natural substrate and mine was 16 inches deep and I put worms and fruit beetle grubs, the adults provided additional interest. I bought some soil from a South American seed company which provided the right bacteria and fungi for tropical plants.
I added scavengers, like millipedes and land hermit crabs and soon I had a lush jungle.
Lime on the leaves was a problem, conquered by using reverse osmosis.
The other big problem was getting enough light to the plants, I used a hps, 400w and 2 100w uv heat and a 4ft reptiglow. This meant lots of vents to get rid of excess heat and it worked for about 6 years then I decided I wanted some bigger and converted the whole of my conservatory into a viv.

It's nice to see that at long last that multi-species vivs can now be discussed without the attacks of those that disagree.
I really would love to see this whole issue talked about more openly, successes and failures.
cheers arthur


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## Ryegeckoman123 (Feb 24, 2008)

I actually wanted to do this with leopard geckos and put them in and let them breed. Supposely if done correctly you can have like 3 generation no problem. I saw it in Ron Tremper's book, The Herpetoculture of Leopard Geckos. If you read the whole book you should find two pages on it. The roach idea is amazing it makes sense I would love to try this.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

I did not want to get into this thread as i generally end up upset and feeling sorry for the animals... However in some cases i feel mixed species in vivaria is OK but only when their behaviour and husbandry is very carefully thought out!

I do this with a dart frog setup. i have two different species together in a LOT of space - and both of these do not bother each other, do not compete with each other, and will not hybridize with each other. 

I think this works.

However, i am to be honest disgusted by your snake setup (please feel free to disagree, but i SERIOUSLY feel sorry for your snakes)



TW said:


> Firstly i'm not disagreeing or agreeing as i dont know enough but i have a few questions...
> 
> Do you not get problems keeping a male and female Tai together? Mating etc..? Also Tai are only semi arboreal. As they get 8Ft + a floor space of 4ft min should be offered. I would be hesitant to house one in your viv let alone 3 snakes? Are they adults? What size?
> 
> ...


This is exactly my thinking.... the husbandry is completely different for both species and their behavior too! Sometime soon one snake or more is going to end up dead by stress, poor husbandry, or simply eaten by another... 



Saedcantas said:


> Firstly, it's going to be obvious that I 100% disagree with your ethics and supposed reasoning.
> 
> What bothers me massively when people come along doing this sort of thing is the way greed and plain risk taking with living organisms, is dressed up in pseudo-scientific rubbish about experimenting in order to learn anything, pushing boundaries and observing behaviours for the benefit of all including the animals we keep.
> Nonsense.
> ...



your not alone, i would not normally slate someone for a mixed vivarium as i do it myself, but in this case it has not been thought through and IS causing detrimental harm to the animals.

this is a thread that should be encouraged for people to share experiences... however I would like to recommend to anyone considering this to think long and hard about the specific needs of all species you are thinking of keeping together!!


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

I have to say Saedcantus, that I don't think a multi-species viv can just be thrown together, it does involve a great deal of research and yes a bit of science if you are creating an eco system.
There are several sites that only talk about naturalistic vivs and the science behind them.
I don't think it's pushing the boundaries so much a trying to replicate the natural habitats of our animals.
I most definitely does teach us more about our animals and how they interact in the wild and if you do your research then there shouldn't be any risk,when you put animals together, you need a lot of observation so that you can pull them out should there be a problem.
cheers arthur


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

arthur cooke said:


> I have to say Saedcantus, that I don't think a multi-species viv can just be thrown together, it does involve a great deal of research and yes a bit of science if you are creating an eco system.
> There are several sites that only talk about naturalistic vivs and the science behind them.
> I don't think it's pushing the boundaries so much a trying to replicate the natural habitats of our animals.
> I most definitely does teach us more about our animals and how they interact in the wild and if you do your research then there shouldn't be any risk,when you put animals together, you need a lot of observation so that you can pull them out should there be a problem.
> cheers arthur



i agree with this, however the boiga/tai viv is quite simply nowhere near big enough for all of these snakes - i think its not just unsuitable, its cruel.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Chondro, as on phibs thread, I totally agree that people need to think long and hard about what species to keep together, I haven't got an opinion on the original posters viv as I've never kept these species and bow to those with more knowledge than me about them.
You need enough room so that animals can move away from conditions or situations they don't like.
cheers arthur


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

arthur cooke said:


> Chondro, as on phibs thread, I totally agree that people need to think long and hard about what species to keep together, I haven't got an opinion on the original posters viv as I've never kept these species and bow to those with more knowledge than me about them.
> You need enough room so that animals can move away from conditions or situations they don't like.
> cheers arthur



:notworthy:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Im not going to comment on the other multi species viv's discussed in this thread as i belive all the necessary pros and cons ahve already been discussed. personally i agree slightly with Chondro. 

I however., do have a multi species viv. i have a 2x1.5x1.5 foot viv. the is completely live planted, based on picturs from american woodland. Due to the planting i can no long see the back of the viv. The viv has been running for about 2 years now. The substraite is maintained by a colony of woodlice, worms, and fruit beetle larvea. I have a colony of springtails that control any fungal build up on leaves. The viv hold a breading colonly of anoles, 1 American tree frog and 2 asian longtails. Personally i didn't want to put the longtails in the tank. They were rescured from somone who had kept them with anoles since hatchling, but had kept them poorly. The problem was when seperated they become obviously distressed, so have ended up back in the tank. and they all get aong well. There has never been any witnessed fighting or stress, in fact most of the time i cant see the lizards apart from those basking. The viv get alot of attention from my self, usally about 2 hours aday, if not more. This is because it located next to my desk. 

Personally i have plans to do and extremely large live planted viv when i have the space, based on a tropical jungle. im not exactly sure on the species yet, i enjpoying plating the vivs and planning them as much as i do keeping the lizards. by large i mean extremely large.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

arthur cooke said:


> I have to say Saedcantus, that I don't think a multi-species viv can just be thrown together, it does involve a great deal of research and yes a bit of science if you are creating an eco system.
> There are several sites that only talk about naturalistic vivs and the science behind them.
> I don't think it's pushing the boundaries so much a trying to replicate the natural habitats of our animals.
> I most definitely does teach us more about our animals and how they interact in the wild and if you do your research then there shouldn't be any risk,when you put animals together, you need a lot of observation so that you can pull them out should there be a problem.
> cheers arthur


I honestly agree with most of your points Arthur, the only one of your points I wouldn't is that it teaches us anything about how they interact in the wild. Species that wouldn't ever meet in the wild aren't teaching us anything in their interactions other than the consequences of a contrived situation. Species that are co-habiting in a "middle ground" environment are likely to be behaving even less normally than the average boxed animal 
While you can factually make an observation about how a bearded dragon and horsfieldi tortoise may interact in a fabricated situation, you aren't learning anything of worth about those animals because the entirity of the interaction is unnatural.

An extreme example in this is that there are no terrestrial Chelonians in Australia, so what exactly are we learning about a bearded dragon by exposing it to a type of animal it would never encounter?

I actually consider myself a liberal middle grounder in terms of mixed enclosures as a whole (I heard those jaws hitting the ground! lol).
The original post to me is a perfect example of how not to approach the concept of successful mixed enclosures.

Lotte***


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## malthereplover (Aug 22, 2008)

I seriously cannot describe how :censor: angered and upset I am by what your doing, its way out of order, firsty torts go in a open table top, beardies and blue tongues are different habitats, viv is too small anyway, as for the snake setup, dont get me :censor: started, why are people like you allowed to keep reps FFS! ARGHHHH


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Having re-read the original post I'm inclined to agree that it does seem a little on the small side.
The bigger the viv the more likely it is that you can have micro-climates. I found that by using a 400w hps it provided overhead heat, which is where heat in the wild comes from and with plants providing shade you can get variations in temperature, not huge, just a couple of degrees, by the same token if it rains from above then plants will be dryer underneath.
If you want fruit beetles to breed then the substrate temp need to be about 75f, I used an under-soil heater, buried about a foot down. The smaller of the grubs are good food for herpes and they can't eat too many because it's only the ones that come to the surface that get eaten,too much chitin to form a main diet.
If people think that it's cheaper to keep a multi species naturalistic viv,think again, it is more expensive. Mine was 8ft x 8ft x 3ft and needed 650 watts of light, for the plants,automatic spray system, auto watering plant roots, loads of thermostats, timers etc and a pure water system so as not to cover plant leaves in lime and prevent a build up of chemicals in the substrate. PH needs to be kept at around 8. Once planted a naturalistic viv cannot be cleaned out in the same way as an ordinary viv. Because you would disturb the bacteria and fungi
So the aim is to have a self cleaning system with a bit of fiddling now and then.
cheers arthur


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Hi 
, can I come back on that. Longtailed grass lizards and Green anoles are unlikely to meet in the wild,however they react to a green anole as they would to whatever little non threatening lizard they would meet and they soon learn that it's no threat and actually attempt to communicate with the anole, all that leg waving that they do, the anole has no idea what the longtail is trying to say but soon learns not to be alarmed and will share it's basking spot. sometimes to the extent that the long tail will climb onto the anoles back.
However, the main point of this kind of viv is to create a natural surrounding, it would be extremely difficult to mimic that exactly, the idea being that you fill each niche.
I can't defend the original poster or even have much of an opinion because I've never kept those animals so have no idea, I would say that it is unnatural to keep those animals together but will they get on, I have no idea.
cheers arthur


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

I'd like to ask a question, having never kept torts, why do they need to be kept on a table top type enclosure.
I'm looking for a gentle discussion not a rant, but why do you dislike the snake viv.
I think that these things need to discussed, we won't find out the don'ts of multi species vivs if we don't talk about them.
cheers arthur


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

I like what the OP is saying.

Interesting.

I won't be hurling abuse.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

arthur cooke said:


> Hi
> , can I come back on that. Longtailed grass lizards and Green anoles are unlikely to meet in the wild,however they react to a green anole as they would to whatever little non threatening lizard they would meet and they soon learn that it's no threat and actually attempt to communicate with the anole, all that leg waving that they do, the anole has no idea what the longtail is trying to say but soon learns not to be alarmed and will share it's basking spot. sometimes to the extent that the long tail will climb onto the anoles back.
> However, the main point of this kind of viv is to create a natural surrounding, it would be extremely difficult to mimic that exactly, the idea being that you fill each niche.
> I can't defend the original poster or even have much of an opinion because I've never kept those animals so have no idea, I would say that it is unnatural to keep those animals together but will they get on, I have no idea.
> cheers arthur


I agree whole heartly, i had no wish to keep them togehter. It was during quanteen that i noticed the stress they where showing. This was the first time they had been seperated from anoles. After many months i deiced to introdce them to a single female anole i had seperated and see how they took it. This odly calmed them down alot. it was then over a slow period i re introduced them back to the anoles and they get along well. I am aware they have different habits and are from different continants. However, i have never witnessed negative behaviour between thme and the anoles, in fact quite the opposite. 

I think the tank being heavly planted with a mix of plants helps them getting on, due to the extra hides that are created. Personally i wouldn't dream of seperating them now. 

jay


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## inkyjoe (Mar 31, 2008)

what a very interesting thread. thoroughly enjoyed reading it. I like the idea of a mixed species viv, but i really dont think that the OPs vivs are big enough, I cant comment on the snake viv, as i dont know about boigas.
I do know that Id feel sorry for a blue tongue on its own in a viv that size, Id also feel sorry for whatever of its tank-mates it pissed off, those jaws are capable of tremendous strength(i know first hand from when my juvenile BT had stomatitis years ago). I remember seeing a breeding group of BT's in ipswich years ago(my ones parents) and not one of them had all the legs/tails/eyes it was made with.
Also, Id say the tortoise DOES need to be in a table, and not in a stuffy, glass fronted viv(a lesson I learned first hand).
Once again, this is a very interesting thread, but it would be made more interesting if (honest) people posted stories of how they mixed species and it ended in failure, just to provide a varied spectrum of triumph, boasting, and criticism


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Hi Jay, my experience of anols and longtails is the same as yours,they got on really well.

Hi Inkyjoe, you're right, we need to know about failures and that won't happen while people are afraid of being attacked.
Personally, I can give as good as I get but try not to.

Failures, I can honestly say that I've never had a failure due to species mixing, I've had failures due to equipment going wrong or building something out of the wrong materials.
Tropical plants were my biggest failure in the beginning, until I realised that tropical plants sold in the UK were not really tropical at all, they have been acclimatised to conditions of the UK front room. When I grew from seed many problems disappeared.
Water, theres another failure, all my plants would end up covered in lime, not only looking bad,it killed them in the end, you don't actually realise that the tap water we drink is poisoned. Another reason why tropical plants die. I thought rain water would be the answer but no, it's as deadly. I ended up with RO, which I think is the answer.Plants that have done the best in my vivs have been members of the ficus family.

What we shouldn't do is drive people like the op away but advise where we think they are going wrong,he has obviously done quite a bit of research, but maybe has failed a bit where viv size and perhaps the animals he has mixed.
I've never kept torts, but as I understand it the reason for an open set up is ventilation and humidity, could a fan take care of this problem?

cheers arthur


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

arthur cooke said:


> Hi Jay, my experience of anols and longtails is the same as yours,they got on really well.
> 
> Hi Inkyjoe, you're right, we need to know about failures and that won't happen while people are afraid of being attacked.
> Personally, I can give as good as I get but try not to.
> ...



i think thats a very reasonable post. I have nothing against the OP, however husbandry of each specific animal and especially the space provided must be more carefully researched IMO.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Couldn't agree more Chondro, at the end of the day, welfare of the animals must come first.
When people put animals together there must be a period of observation,I would spend days observing, which is a pleasure anyway.Are they eating, basking,shedding, are there bits of the setup dangerous. But really all these sorts of things are what people would be doing even if it wasn't a mixed species viv.

Talking of failures,hope I'm not boring, Bought two giant stick insects, guy convinced me that they only eat bramble and that my other plants would be safe so I put some thornless bramble in the viv and added them,yep, next day not a single leaf of any thing left, stripped it bare.:blush:

cheers arthur


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

arthur cooke said:


> Couldn't agree more Chondro, at the end of the day, welfare of the animals must come first.
> When people put animals together there must be a period of observation,I would spend days observing, which is a pleasure anyway.Are they eating, basking,shedding, are there bits of the setup dangerous. But really all these sorts of things are what people would be doing even if it wasn't a mixed species viv.
> 
> Talking of failures,hope I'm not boring, Bought two giant stick insects, guy convinced me that they only eat bramble and that my other plants would be safe so I put some thornless bramble in the viv and added them,yep, next day not a single leaf of any thing left, stripped it bare.:blush:
> ...


Hehe, phasmids will have a go at eating almost any plant i've found, even if its not so good for them. 

Just out of curiosity, what seeds have you been using and where did you get them  I have to admit that i have the same problems in some of my other planted vivs at keeping plants alive so you could have just solved my problem.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Hi Spikebrit, I got mine from the Costa Rican seed co, but they stopped trading.
I started out by putting plants in pots buried in the substrate.I found that it was better to let the roots grow freely.
Tap water raised the PH to such a level that it killed off all the good bacteria and fungi.
cheers arthur


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

arthur cooke said:


> Hi Spikebrit, I got mine from the Costa Rican seed co, but they stopped trading.
> I started out by putting plants in pots buried in the substrate.I found that it was better to let the roots grow freely.
> Tap water raised the PH to such a level that it killed off all the good bacteria and fungi.
> cheers arthur


yer, i plant alot of mine in pots now, and they tend to be watered using bottled mineral water where possiable; which has solved some of my initial problems. Its just getting hold of good, plants for a good price thats the problem. 

Where do you get your plants from now?? or do can you sustain yourself with the plants you used to have???


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

The Boiga and the 2 Taiwans have been together for a fair few months now. When the boiga was on its own it wasnt feeding well at all but since being moved into a larger mixed encloser he has thrived, his coat is fantastic and he is extremly tame and sheds perfectly. The same can be said for both Taiwans, they are box fed due to the dominence of the female and are both doing really well.










I think some of the comment are a little unfair, I and strictly live for our animals, we spend countless hours and all our money on them, any problems are dealt with straight away.

The taiwan and boiga encloser is soon to be given an upgrade, and the boiga is to be moved in to a larger viv, but saying that- the one they are in has all the right heat spots, humidity and ground space, and each snake has taken its turn at the top and on the ground. 

We have had absulutly no problems with this encloser, or the snakes, unfortunatly the only problem is the response people give when we bring it up.

I will however stand up and say that what we are doing is not cruel, yes it is experimental but we would never put any of our animals in danger, argue this all you like but they are supervised to the max and then daily records and checks are made.

This thread was always going to cause controversy, and there has been some very interesting comments and thankyou for getting involved, i just think you cant justiify calling someone cruel by a badly taken photo - you really have to see this in person to be honest


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*Thats interesting about the anoles, as i also keep species from different continents together, i have recently removed my 2 bosc's and they have been housed seperatly, we were not very confident that this could work and so have not taken the risk.

However my african plated lizard is doing absolutly fine with the beardy, they bask together, eat together, sleep together, its quite cute really *


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

A 3ft x 1.5ft x 4ft enclosure is only slightly taller (and much less deep) than what i have my cyanea housed in singularly - and he uses every inch of that viv space, i would not dream of housing him in anything smaller, and certainly not with another snake. 

If its a badly taken photo, can we please have another to show each snake is not cramped? 

Personally i just cannot see how you can achieve the correct temps and humidity requirements and cause no stress to any of the animals in their current setup.

Im not having a go whatsoever - no matter how i look at it it seems cruel to me (regardless of how the boiga is feeding..as this may be a stress response to thinking of when he's gonna be getting his next meal with two Tais in there) as i just dont think there is enough space for a single Tai, let alone two and a cyanea. 

Please dont think im being harsh and having a go - it is simply my opinion which i am entitled to as much as you, and I am genuinely interested and would like to see how youve done it for so long and had no complications as far as your aware.


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*Oh im all for opinions and this was always going to have some worried and concerned responses, the boiga is however being temporary housed with the taiwans, and he wouldnt of been kept in there if there were any problems or signs that he was in any distress, we think the reason he is feeding better is because the viv set up he had before wasn't adequate for his needs, and as he is the only one fed in the viv there isnt any competition.He does have a new viv reserved for him though for the near future and the taiwans should be absulutly fine in the one they are in, there are more than enough hides and basking spots to set them up for life. *


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*To be honest though, these snakes are not mine i am only making an observation and voicing my own experience with what i have witnessed and observed, my boyfriend would be better answering all questions on space etc, at first i had the same concerns but these snakes really are doing well and so to me thats enough  - of course for any encloser there is always room for improvement, and all these snakes are captive bred anyways.*


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Fair enough, thanks for your reply and opinions. To be honest im very happy the Boiga is getting a new home soon and personally i still think that viv is too small for a pair of Tai's but that is up to the keeper.

No matter what this has certainly been an interesting thread..


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

If you google tropical seeds you will find quite a few sites.
cheers arthur


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Scarlet and Strictly,I think people are expressing their concerns and this is for the good because it allows for us to reply to those concerns.It's good that you have posted what you've done and how you went about the planning of it. Also that we can see from photos that the animals look healthy.
Forums like this are places that we can learn in and discuss problems and how to solve them. I for one welcome your posts because it opened up such a discussion.
cheers arthur


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## htd100 (Feb 26, 2006)

What an intresting thread! Although it seems like a game of paper, scissors, stone with animals.

Before I comment, my intentions are purely in the animals best intrest and not a dig at anybodys husbandry. I cant understand why you have chosen two snakes which are arboreal and one which has a reputation for eating other snakes.In terms of diet why not hypertheticaly speaking-

Green snakes - which eat insects.
Egg eaters.
Water snakes - fish
Sutable species of rat snake.

I hypertheticaly thought about co habatating a mangrove snake with a false water cobra in a 2mh x 2ml x 1mw viv. My reasons were firstly the FWC is diurnal and teresteral where as the the mangrove is nocturnal and arboreal. Hyperthetical speaking they would not cross each others path.
The FWCs body structure is that possably it would be too big to eat and visa versa.Thankfully Mike at shropshire exotics helped me see otherwise and its impracticalitys. 

I used to keep the cyanea in a flexarium because I thought it could offer the right space requirments and I could put live plants in with ease.
Intially it was very good,the snake seemed be doing very well. The glass crawling stopped and it began to adopt a pattern of routeen within the viv.Unfortunatly over time the mesh seemed to become non exisatant and the barrer between the inside and out becane less aparent. Smells passed freely between the two and before long it night time activity become trying to escape and finds its own food. In the end it leared how open the zip, lol.I now adopt in my opinion a much better if not more bland approch at housing which hopfully to date IMO is working.


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## htd100 (Feb 26, 2006)

Scarlet_Rain said:


> The fact that i have witnessed on several occasions a Female Taiwan and a male boiga sharing the same basking spot, and the same branch, really speaks for its self.


I dont undrerstand how this proves anything?


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Spikebrit, Most of my new plants come from cuttings. I am in the process of closing down my latest viv due the fact that I am moving to Italy this year. Giving me the chance to build a whole new setup,as I have all the equipment,It should be easy, this time I may take loads of photos and give a blow by blow account of how and what I'm doing.
Plants that adapt really well to a well lit naturalistic setup, Rubber plants do very well, takes a while to get going. Paddle leaved fig,quick growing and becomes a nice bush. Weeping fig, they sell cheap little ones in Ikea, you can create nice thick under growth if you plant very close together, let substrate dry out a bit before watering,diluted growmore once a month as a feed on the roots, foliage feeding might lead to a reptile drinking it from the leaves. The biggest problem with these is light, so plenty of light and a deep substrate so that they can get a good root run. Good old spider plant can do well in a hanging basket,not too wet tho.
Staghorn ferns do well but they don't like being sprayed, best method of watering is to take them out of viv and soak in bowl of luke warm water, the bloom on the leaves should never be cleaned off. Attach with wire to a slab of cork bark then you can unhook it for watering.
cheers arthur


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## strictly_scales (Sep 10, 2008)

*Well well well....*

Where do I begin....

Ok, first, to the guy who got a little carried away and would have happily called me every name under the sun... 

We are all still learning about these animals- I work in the trade, and I have seen far too much reptile suffering. I can personally guarantee you that every single animal I have is a textbook example of how that animal should appear, behave etc... Nothing I have is in bad health, a difficult feeder, listless, parasite laden, obese, stressed or any of the other problems you frequently see in captive reptiles. 

I also ask you, would you be able to rehabilitate a four foot monitor who has been passed from person to person, over fed an inadequate diet, been beaten by people and been cooped up in a Vivarium that did not allow her to exhibit any form of natural behaviour to the extent where she could not walk? Because I have. At considerable cost, time and patience.

I may still be learning, but I have been learning reptiles for 12 years now, and have learnt to the extent where I have been employed to educate people about them, and advise people on their husbandry. I've worked with the kind of animals most of you dream about every night. And I am still learning.

None of us are experts, and we are all welcome to voice our own opinions in a reasonable and courteous manner.

I'll try to provide some form of insight into some of the points...

1) Beardies and tortoises. To a wild Bearded Dragon, a toroise would never ever be encountered. If one was encountered, for some reason, the Beardie would most probably treat it as an object of curiosity for a couple of seconds, and then ignore it completely. However, a wild Bearded Dragon would most probably bolt from an approaching human instantly.

The Dragons we keep are not wild. The Beardie can be regarded as a domestic species. Some of these natural behaviours can still be seen in Domestic Beardies, but a great many have been bred out. As a result, surely a tortoise is just as unnatural as the human who opens the glass daily to supply a nice bowl of freshly chopped greens. 

I'm not even going to bother to defend the dimensions of the Viv- it is a perfectly suitable size for the species kept. I could not keep anything else in there, do not wish to extend this project further, but after 18 months of running this experiment, it works. Don't forget, this Viv was custom designed and built as a community Viv. I will soon be starting phase 2 of this project, which is an experiment with lighting cycles to generate more natural activity patterns, but thats still in development.

Anyhow, this one works. Perfectly. Better than could have been expected. If anyone wants proper technical specifications, PM me.

The snake one is tricky, I'll give you all that. And I fully agree, the enclosure is too small. And I do intend to make it larger. But I will not be parting the snakes, merely increasing the enclosure size.

The Boiga has always been a strike feeder, from day one, so to speak. I have had problems feeding him on occasions, but since being in this enclosure he has fed like a monster. I feed them all seperately, that is obvious. It's very rare that all 3 are fed on the same day, so the Taiwans are removed and tubbed. They are fed in tubs, the Boiga fed in the Viv. The Taiwans go back into the Viv after about 3 hours. The male Taiwan will go into his favourite hide to digest, as will the Boiga. The female Taiwan will go and bask. Like clockwork, every time. 

When not feeding, the Boiga divides his time between basking with the female Taiwan, or resting in his hide. Interestingly, the Boiga was originally in another flexi-Viv on his own, but would continually try to escape. Since being in here, I've had no escape attempts from anything.

The Taiwans are both youg adults, female about 6 foot, male a little smaller. I've had them both from Grown-ons. 

Many many temperature and humidity questions... where to start...

In a tropical rainforest, foliage is generally split into levels, with different animals inhabiting different areas, some species venturing between them. Plant cover creates pockets of humidity, broken light offers dryer patches etc... In addition, a whole system of different organisms carrying out different roles is present.

The term naturalistic means effectively to borrow from nature, and that is what I tried to replicate. I'm attempting to apply some principles of nature that are often overlooked in captive care of animals.

Animals compete and encounter other species on a daily basis. Indeed, it is competition that strengthens a species and ultimately acts as a driving force for evolution. And so, therefore, what can be more natural than a little bit of healthy competition. A bold statement, but one to consider.

Don't forget, this was an extension of an existing experiment, and as it stands, is working out better than could be imagined.

It's just that no-one has ever really had the balls to do it before... lol


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## TW (May 1, 2007)

strictly_scales said:


> In a tropical rainforest, foliage is generally split into levels, with different animals inhabiting different areas, some species venturing between them. Plant cover creates pockets of humidity, broken light offers dryer patches etc... In addition, a whole system of different organisms carrying out different roles is present.
> 
> The term naturalistic means effectively to borrow from nature, and that is what I tried to replicate. I'm attempting to apply some principles of nature that are often overlooked in captive care of animals.


Firstly, thanks for the reply. :2thumb:

Can i ask how you've done the above to the snake viv? And how its naturalistic to snakes from different areas?

Also, what temps do you keep and humidity?


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## strictly_scales (Sep 10, 2008)

Fair points- the intention was originally to create a multi dimensional environment for a pair of Taiwans that incorporated the Bioactive Substrate System and enhanced it with the inclusion of a detrivorous invertebrate colony- a simple enhancement on a de Vosjolii experiment that he used to great sucess.

However, I misunderestimated the size of my reptile room and the amount of equipement, so decided to temporarily house the Boiga in there too, reasoning that no aggression between the species or individuals would occur because:

1) Taiwans and Boiga use different parts of the Viv.
2) Competition for food is non-existant.
3) Competition for space is reduced by floor and ceiling heat sources and numerous hides.
4) Waste production is reduced due to provision of natural waste reduction.
5) The design and adaptation of the Vivarium is such that it allows for a range of microclimates within the Vivarium, caterig for the needs of all species.

Every enclosure I have ever put together has been very complicated, using a wide variety of materials, and generally taking considerable amounts of time. I use a Takashi Amano philosophy; basically an animal is much happier in its environment if it cannot always be seen.

Stimulation for the captive far out ranks actual physical space, in my experience. A great deal of enclosures are spare, with a rock, a hide and a water dish. Whilst this may be necessary for a large, powerful species, for small species it isn't.

I rarely use thermometers or hydrometers; I know the equipment I use, how it works, and I can tell from watching the environment and it's inhabitants whether temperatures are correct. This also allows for a little natural fluctuation through the year. 

Finally, I know every single animal I have extremely well- I know all the feeding records, shedding patterns, activity patterns, dietary preferences, individual character etc. I spend around 2 hours every day with these animals.


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## strictly_scales (Sep 10, 2008)

Oh, snakes from different areas...

Simple. Although the range of a Boiga cyanea and a Taiwan may never cross, there are equivalent species found within those areas, i.e: species that occupy similar niches.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Strictly, I did my first one some 20 odd years ago,my most successful one was some years ago, substrate inhabited by fruit beetle grubs, worms,bacteria, fungi,surface contained giant millipedes and land hermit crabs, which also climbed in the bushes. reptiles consisted of peacock and golddust day gueckos,small skinks,green anoles,long tailed grass lizards, rough green snakes,red eyed treefrogs,grays treefrogs,green treefrogs. pond contained guppies and last but not least, a pair of orange cheeked waxbills (tiny finches).
I ran this one for about 6 or 7 years, many of them bred, including the finches. Excluding the hermies of course.
As I'm moving to Italy I have to close every thing down and start again out there.
Recently the idea of multi-species vivs is becoming more acceptable but it is still an uphill battle convincing those who are against the idea.
I first did it to enhance the life of my animals and make the vivs more interesting, there's always something going on and it does bring out more natural behaviour.
You can buy a sun system that moves the lamps on a rail, it's used by hydroponics growers, but it is pretty expensive. It would be complicated to work out, red slowly turning to blue at midday, then slowly red at the end of the day. 
Do you have any thought on how it could be done and what are the benefits.
cheers arthur


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Very interesting.. and it does seem to be working! I cant help but feel that they need a MUCH bigger viv SOON, but i have to accept your evidence for their keeping together..

personally i would never do it myself, but im impressed by this thread.


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## htd100 (Feb 26, 2006)

but Arthur think of the big bulb in the sky with all the ventalation you want in Italy.:mf_dribble:. Going off at a tangent, you could have a motorised shade curtain with different thermic materals for different times of the year. 

I dont know about the climate in Italy but if theres no water shortages as in other parts of the med. then cooling should not be a problem.

The information you give on this topic has realy givern me some ideas and possable solutions to what im trying to do.Hard water might be explaing why certain things are happening. 

again off topic, cheak this guys set up for his iggies in sweeden, on you tube by the name - calder79. 

its pritty amazing!!Its a shame you dident get some pics of yours.


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## strictly_scales (Sep 10, 2008)

Lighting wise, I'm considering (this is for the lizard community), a UV 10.0 on one starter, on for 16 hours a day, a sun GLO bulb on for 9, and 2 sets of basking spots, each with 2 angled spots, left and right. The exact timings for these I'm still working out, and this is all approximate, but I figured one side first, for a couple of hours, then both, then other side. That way heat, light intensity and light direction will all change on a rotational cycle. 

Something like that...


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## TW (May 1, 2007)

So if your making the vivs naturalistic how come you dont monitor the temps and humidity? I notice you use a bulb for heating. Do you just run that from a stat? If so, whats the stat set too for the floor and the basking bulb? Do you mist for humidity?


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

TW said:


> So if your making the vivs naturalistic how come you dont monitor the temps and humidity? I notice you use a bulb for heating. Do you just run that from a stat? If so, whats the stat set too for the floor and the basking bulb? Do you mist for humidity?


I know strictly doesnt monitor his tamps and humidity but i do in mine if thats any help. I have all the probes hidden in various sections of the viv given 4 different temp readings and 2 humidity readings. 

Jay


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

arthur cooke said:


> Strictly, I did my first one some 20 odd years ago,my most successful one was some years ago, substrate inhabited by fruit beetle grubs, worms,bacteria, fungi,surface contained giant millipedes and land hermit crabs, which also climbed in the bushes. reptiles consisted of peacock and golddust day gueckos,small skinks,green anoles,long tailed grass lizards, rough green snakes,red eyed treefrogs,grays treefrogs,green treefrogs. pond contained guppies and last but not least, a pair of orange cheeked waxbills (tiny finches).
> I ran this one for about 6 or 7 years, many of them bred, including the finches. Excluding the hermies of course.
> As I'm moving to Italy I have to close every thing down and start again out there.
> Recently the idea of multi-species vivs is becoming more acceptable but it is still an uphill battle convincing those who are against the idea.
> ...


I can honestly say wow. What size was the viv?? how long was it running for?? and please can i have a pic . If i had the room i would love to expand mine to somthing simular.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Hi Jay,it ran for about 6 to 7 years and it was 8ft x 8 ft x 3ft., I discontinued it because I wanted something bigger and the wife decided she wanted the front room back. So I built an outside room at the bottom of the garden,9ft high x 12ft long x 9ft wide. but I have to say that it was very expensive to run heating wise and I wouldn't do it again.

Once you get above 4 ft high with a densely planted viv you start to have light penetration problems,so my 8ft viv had 640 watts of light, which equals quite a lot of heat, I did consider an extraction fan, but when I heard one running it was so noisy that it was very distracting so I went for vents, 6 in a line above the substrate and one above each light, I caged the light with that very fine mesh that you can get from some hardware stores. It was a bonus to discover that this mesh, which looked metallic, hardly conducted heat at all, at about 8 inches from the HPS 400w bulb it was only warm. I don't know why this is. I think it was some form of mosquito netting for screen doors. Anyway worked a treat. All i had to do was fold it into shape, add some thin wood stiffeners and staple the mesh to them so that I had an 8ft long cage for the lights.

I put each light on a timer so that they would come on one at a time over about half an hour, the dimmest light coming on first and vice a versa at night, the idea being that the animals wouldn't be startled by them suddenly coming on. it was effectively a dawn and dusk.

cheers arthur


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

TW, I has several humidity meters and thermostats and also digi-readout meter that would measure both. My under soil heater was on a stat and also on a timer.one hour on, 30 mins off. It was buried under 15 inches of substrate so no animal came in contact with it and of course it was always damp.
cheers arthur


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## moonstruck (Aug 10, 2008)

I personally am very interested in peoples accounts of community vivariums.

I was very shocked when I moved in with my boyfriends parents, to hear that when my boyfriend was younger, they had a huge 8ft x 4ft x 2ft deep vivarium in the front room, that housed a number of various species of geckos, an iguana, skinks, i think also anoles, and fish, in a pond built into the viv. this worked for a number of years, they never had any problem of one species eating another and they lived quite "happily" together. 
I only found out how this ended a couple of weeks ago, and his mum seemed rather reluctant to speak about it, it upset her a fair bit so I didn't push. But it's a very important factor, they lived together fine a number of years, and one of the became ill.. then the rest of them became ill. They all died. 

This seemed odd to me at first, that they lived so healthily for years, then one... and all of them, became ill. But it is possible that of of the lizards was ill from the beginning, it may have had some sort of parasite/virus/problem that didn't cause a direct problem with that reptile, they had been lucky for those number of years, it may have eventually been passed on through faeces?

Non-the-less, it failed, disasterously, after years of working well. And it obviously upset her when it did fail.

I'm rather curious as to why no-one is willing to post pictures of these fantastically planted natural mini eco-systems?!


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Hi Moonstruck, you know the situation with your friends, I don't, but if it had been all right for years then perhaps someone handled a lizard some where else and brought something back with them.

Did they clean there substrate or did they have waste disposers like bacteria, worms etc.
To stop a build up of parasites ect it's important that the substrate is reasonably clean, which is the idea of a living substrate, the waste is turned into food and fertiliser to be reused by the plants.

Every so often I would collect a bag of dead leaves, microwave them and cover the surface of the substrate, this would encourage the fruit beetle grub to eat near the surface shielded by a layer of leaves.

Photos, I'm looking for a video tape that I did and snatch some frames using imovie.
cheers arthur


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

moonstruck said:


> I personally am very interested in peoples accounts of community vivariums.
> 
> I was very shocked when I moved in with my boyfriends parents, to hear that when my boyfriend was younger, they had a huge 8ft x 4ft x 2ft deep vivarium in the front room, that housed a number of various species of geckos, an iguana, skinks, i think also anoles, and fish, in a pond built into the viv. this worked for a number of years, they never had any problem of one species eating another and they lived quite "happily" together.
> I only found out how this ended a couple of weeks ago, and his mum seemed rather reluctant to speak about it, it upset her a fair bit so I didn't push. But it's a very important factor, they lived together fine a number of years, and one of the became ill.. then the rest of them became ill. They all died.
> ...


I'll take some picture now if you want and post mine up. I've been saying for ages i should take pictures and never get round to it. I have some of my first planted viv, with a water fall, that failed badly (in respect to the tank and plants not the animals). 

Arthur, as per the PM i'm looking forward to the pictures. 

Jay


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## robbiepurvis1309 (Dec 8, 2008)

totally agree with Zak


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Heres my pics as promised. They are not as good as i wished, but will have to do. 

the whole tank shot:



















The pictures start at the right side and pan accross. the giant africian nut shell in the first pics is used as a water dish. Im affrid i can't name the plants.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

the rest starting from the middle




























This pic is under the basking spot which is on the far left of the tank. You can see the male long tail basking, with the dominant male anole on the mushroom in the back ground. He was asleep untill the flash went off.


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## TW (May 1, 2007)

TW said:


> So if your making the vivs naturalistic how come you dont monitor the temps and humidity strictly? I notice you use a bulb for heating. Do you just run that from a stat? If so, whats the stat set too for the floor and the basking bulb? Do you mist for humidity?


?????


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## secuner (Feb 2, 2008)

that sounds great strictly_scales. it does sound a little crowded in the lizard viv but you said that they have been established like that for months so it carn't be to bad or they'd be fighting.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

I've found one of my video tapes with the viv on it, so I will attempt to snatch some frames from it.
Might need some help putting them on here tho.

This is a very good thread and I've learned a bit from it and enjoyed reading the many comments.

Build enhanced environments for our animals has to be a good thing, leaving aside the multi-species.
Multi species doesn't have to contain different kinds of lizards, frogs or snakes. It could be that you could have one variety of lizard along side invertebrates,like fruit beetles etc,or frogs and fish.
cheers arthur


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## thesaddleryshop (Nov 19, 2007)

This is a very interesting thread- I have animals that live in a community outside- alpacas, sheep, hens, ducks, a rabbit and a guinnie pig- all free range together and it is common to see the rabbit eating out of the same bwol as an alpaca or cuddled upto a hen in a nestbox! I think people thought I was mad when I put them together but they all appear to be very happy and are certainly thriving. I also keep my 3 horses out all the time (with a small barn they can use at will) together, when a lot of people keep them in stables and in individual turnout paddocks. Again, they are very happy and relaxed- but I am going 'against the norm'. We are very bad at trying and accepting new ideas in this country, prefering the security of what is already practiced. I think it is important that new ideas are tested (after thorough research and a 'risk assesment') as ultimately they could produce better and more natural ways of keeping animals which can only be a good thing. Unfortunately with all pioneering ideas, things won't always go right and there is an element of trial and error as you are venturing into unknown terratory but even in conventional setups things go wrong so I don't think it is a reason not to try new things as long as they are not done on a whim or for the wrong reasons (such as lack of money to set the animal up correctly).


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Lots of research and attention to detail, I've kept rabbits and chicken together and it works very well.
Altho, something going wrong in a naturalistic viv is difficult because it may involve starting from scratch.

I think maybe that people should start off getting the substrate and plants right before adding any animals, this is after getting the design of the viv right, no exposed wires for animals like crabs to chew through, that includes things like water pipes, don't use hose pipes but rigid plastic tubing. put electric cables inside rigid plastic pipes.
Have a drain to allow the escape of excess water, so you will need something to catch excess water, so a space underneath the viv for a container.
Don't put lights on the ceiling of a viv because plants will reach it and foliage will die back because of the heat.
Most plants don't like temps above 85f so keep them away from excess heat. Use bare branches or logs for basking spots.
Don't expect many plants to flower, they need some of the red spectrum to flower,so if you want flowers you need some red, HPS will give you red but they burn very hot and come with a large ballast and are expensive,dope growers use them to induce their plants to flower. Before anyone says, no, I do not, but I've found that the hydroponics shops are a good source for equipment. Auto watering systems, lights etc etc.
cheers arthur


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## boots_n_braces (Jan 11, 2009)

evening all, on the plant front junglegardens.co.uk do a huge stock of weird and wonderful plants and seeds from uk climate to desert species and everything in between. 
i breed rare orchids so if your having plant issues give me a shout.

On the lighting front i use growell grolux bulbs for everything ive had orchid morphs i thought were pure failures that suddenly decided to grow when i switched to them and my electricity bill is sooo much smaller


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Hi Boots, they are quite good, the problem I found was that over about 4ft the penetration of light from a florescent is not enough.
I used to go to the RHS orchid show in London,many orchids need a rest period and it's difficult to give them this. My most successful orchid was the Jewel orchid (ludisca discolour?? some thing like that.) and they are very cheap to buy,especially when they've stopped flowering and garden centres sell them off cheap for a quid. unlike many orchids they have very nice leaves that stay all year round.
Orchids are lovely plants, no doubt about that and I've tried to grow many but generally found that they are difficult and expensive, I would spend maybe 60 quid on 2 or 3 plants only to find that they would be dead a year later.
I wonder if this has some thing to do with hybrids developed in the UK and Holland and not liking there original conditions.
I'd be very interested to hear what you would consider a good bet for orchids in a forest or rain forest viv?
Nice to have an expert around.
cheers arthur


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