# The Adder (Vipera berus)



## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Can anybody tell me about the components of it's Venom? How does the Venom affect you?

Cheers!
James


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

...I don't like the way this is going...


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

LeviathanNI said:


> ...I don't like the way this is going...


 
I am interested......I have heard it's fairly mild....But I want to learn more about the native species of Herps.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

ViperLover said:


> I am interested......*I have heard it's fairly mild.*...But I want to learn more about the native species of Herps.


So mild it has killed people:whistling2:


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## StevetheSnake (Mar 10, 2008)

Then google it. You would be best of staying clear of the DWA forum, you have riled far too many people and to be honest, you are still coming across like you have experience in the other thread. A lot of people are not going to take you seriously at all.


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

This has info.. 
Adder or Viper - Vipera berus


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

LeviathanNI said:


> This has info..
> Adder or Viper - Vipera berus


 
Cheers!


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Buy yourself this book

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Venomous-Snakes-Terrarium-Vol-terratium/dp/1575241382http://www.amazon.com/Venomous-Snakes-Terrarium-Vol/dp/1575241382

It will answer most questions you have, well worth the money & will keep the posts down.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Owzy said:


> Buy yourself this book
> 
> Venomous Snakes: Snakes in the Terrarium Vol 2 Snakes in the terratium: Amazon.co.uk: Ludwig Trutnau, Donald W. Stremme: Books
> 
> It will answer most questions you have, well worth the money & will keep the posts down.


 
Cheers mate.


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## Matt_Wall (Jan 28, 2007)

Did a paper on british snakes for uni and had to research this myself! As far as I'm aware the venom consists of haemorrhagins and procoagulants. The procoagulants promote blood clotting until the body breaks down all the clots until the bodys supply of clotting factor effectively runs out and the blood becomes incoagulable as a result of this.
The haemorrhagins make the blood vessels permeable to blood and therefore cause internal bleeding. 

Hope that helps


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Matt_Wall said:


> Did a paper on british snakes for uni and had to research this myself! As far as I'm aware the venom consists of haemorrhagins and procoagulants. The procoagulants promote blood clotting until the body breaks down all the clots until the bodys supply of clotting factor effectively runs out and the blood becomes incoagulable as a result of this.
> The haemorrhagins make the blood vessels permeable to blood and therefore cause internal bleeding.
> 
> Hope that helps


 
Cheers!


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

James, right firstly i take it you are not listening to the advice of many people on this forum. Why are you asking Questions on this and that which. in my opinion. are not really relevant to you current situation. As has been said before if you keep posting question after question on things that are far more advance than where you are in the hobby you *will/are *going to get peoples backs up, to the point that know one will bother to answer your questions, also take heed of what PDR said about what may or may not happen in the future.
I have been keeping snakes 30 years and i have only now started to study venoms and toxins, which as people will tell you is a hardcore subject when you start to get into it.
Also you are sitting right now infront of the biggest referance and reserch tool there has ever been. If you want to know something google it, read and digest and keep it to yourself, as you will not be recieved kindly on here if you start to regurgitate what you have read. all you are doing is putting across somebody elses point of view or reserch findings, and that is easy, the hard part is taking what you read and learn and putting it into practice, once you have done this and people see your efforts then you will be taken seriously.

This is the last time I am going to bother saying anything as if you carry on posting on dwa forum when you clearly are not taking any notice and IMO you are not taking any notice of whats i and many others have said so WHATS THE POINT.
Lee


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## monkeymagic (Mar 26, 2008)

*hi*

i think its high time every body layed of this kid so what if he is asking questions about other stuff to do with venomous i cant see why anybody would have a problem with someone trying to learn and as for comments saying he is just saying what he has read on the internet or in books thats fair enough thats where many learn about the animals they wish to keep and no matter what you read your understanding of a particular species comes with keeping them as many of you do and know a snakes behavoir better than any book and im not sideing with him i think his idea of keeping venomous with little or no experience he might as will just let a rattler etc tag him cos thats whats going to happen i have done minimal work with venomous but would rather stick to the big stuff but have seen first hand the strike speed of gaboons rattlers and cobras and for someone who dont know the first thing about handling you will get bitten and it will f:censor:ing hurt


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## jasonkwong135 (Mar 27, 2009)

Matt_Wall said:


> Did a paper on british snakes for uni and had to research this myself! As far as I'm aware the venom consists of haemorrhagins and procoagulants. The procoagulants promote blood clotting until the body breaks down all the clots until the bodys supply of clotting factor effectively runs out and the blood becomes incoagulable as a result of this.
> The haemorrhagins make the blood vessels permeable to blood and therefore cause internal bleeding.
> 
> Hope that helps



you got the reference to your paper? I wanna check it out. cheers

Jason


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

leecb0 said:


> James, right firstly i take it you are not listening to the advice of many people on this forum. Why are you asking Questions on this and that which. in my opinion. are not really relevant to you current situation. As has been said before if you keep posting question after question on things that are far more advance than where you are in the hobby you *will/are *going to get peoples backs up, to the point that know one will bother to answer your questions, also take heed of what PDR said about what may or may not happen in the future.
> I have been keeping snakes 30 years and i have only now started to study venoms and toxins, which as people will tell you is a hardcore subject when you start to get into it.
> Also you are sitting right now infront of the biggest referance and reserch tool there has ever been. If you want to know something google it, read and digest and keep it to yourself, as you will not be recieved kindly on here if you start to regurgitate what you have read. all you are doing is putting across somebody elses point of view or reserch findings, and that is easy, the hard part is taking what you read and learn and putting it into practice, once you have done this and people see your efforts then you will be taken seriously.
> 
> ...


 
Lee,

I have been taking notice....And I have heeded the warnings. Non-venomous is the key to gain experience and knowledge....and still a facinating animal.

Venomous requires reading, learning and ASKING QUESTIONS to learn about different animals.

This is a forum to ASK QUESTIONS and for the experienced keepers to provide knowledge. I would like to learn more and more by researching, and asking others whom are experfienced.

James


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

monkeymagic said:


> i think its high time every body layed of this kid so what if he is asking questions about other stuff to do with venomous i cant see why anybody would have a problem with someone trying to learn and as for comments saying he is just saying what he has read on the internet or in books thats fair enough thats where many learn about the animals they wish to keep and no matter what you read your understanding of a particular species comes with keeping them as many of you do and know a snakes behavoir better than any book and im not sideing with him i think his idea of keeping venomous with little or no experience he might as will just let a rattler etc tag him cos thats whats going to happen i have done minimal work with venomous but would rather stick to the big stuff but have seen first hand the strike speed of gaboons rattlers and cobras and for someone who dont know the first thing about handling you will get bitten and it will f:censor:ing hurt


Cheers!


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Tony Phelps down in S.Africa or Wolfgang Wuster from Bangor University would be invaluable here, i believe that according to WW, Vipera berus's venom is actually roughly twice as potent as Crotalus atrox's venom believe it or not (i maybe wrong though). But one thing is for sure, they have the potential to do alot more damage than what they're given 'credit' for. I get these in my garden at certain times of the year, once they've moved away from their hibernacula.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Alex M said:


> Tony Phelps down in S.Africa or Wolfgang Wuster from Bangor University would be invaluable here, i believe that according to WW, Vipera berus's venom is actually roughly twice as potent as Crotalus atrox's venom believe it or not (i maybe wrong though). But one thing is for sure, they have the potential to do alot more damage than what they're given 'credit' for. I get these in my garden at certain times of the year, once they've moved away from their hibernacula.


 
Crotalus atrox has like 5 times the yeild, though right?

Which makes C. atrox more dangerous as it gives 5 times more the lethal dose then V. berus if I am right in stating


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> Crotalus atrox has like 5 times the yeild, though right?
> 
> Which makes C. atrox more dangerous as it gives 5 times more the lethal dose then V. berus if I am right in stating


I would think you are there or there abouts concerning quantity, i know the rattler would obviously inject a far higher dose of venom, but that's the difference, drop for drop berus's venom is more potent. You've hit the nail on the head basically in the reasons why adders are not considered anywhere near as dangerous as western db's.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Alex M said:


> I would think you are there or there abouts concerning quantity, i know the rattler would obviously inject a far higher dose of venom, but that's the difference, drop for drop berus's venom is more potent. You've hit the nail on the head basically in the reasons why adders are not considered anywhere near as dangerous as western db's.


 
Drop for drop, it is more potent....Or it isnt.

At the end of the day....How many snakes can deliver a fatal injection by one drop?

There are quite a few that can, and certainly more then enough that'll put you in hospital with a single drop.

I would much rather that I had NO such Venom in my body....It doesn;t matter whether it;s the Venom of a Hoggie, or the venom of an Inland Taipan. It still has it;s affects on you're blood chemistry, and the rest of you're body.

In my opinion....If you had a drop of WDB Venom, or a drop of V. berus venom in you....It may or may not do you serious harm....But it will still inflect damage in places where the eye can't see.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> Drop for drop, it is more potent....Or it isnt.


Ok i'll break it down. You would feel worse if you had one drop of the berus's venom in you than one drop of the atrox's.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Alex M said:


> Ok i'll break it down. You would feel worse if you had one drop of the berus's venom in you than one drop of the atrox's.


Yeah maybe so....But the LD50 was tested on Mice. Who's not to say that Venom can work differently on Mice then it can on humans? We have stronger emune systems, we are larger and therefore require a higher doseage to cause harm. All venoms are different....I have heard that the atrox's bite is extremely painful....I have also heard that the berus' bite is also painful, but not to the scale of the atrox. But how can you tell? Each and every snakebite, whether it's from the same species or not is different. Each snakebite has different amounts of venom injected, the bites occured on different circumstances...Not forgetting that everybody is different. I could be tagged by a C. atrox, have serum administered and be ok. You, however could be tagged, and have a severe....life-threatening allergict reaction. Lots of facters come into play with snakebites.

And NO - I am not being a know all....I am just sharing how I see it and how I have learned from different people sharing knowledge.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> Yeah maybe so....But the LD50 was tested on Mice. Who's not to say that Venom can work differently on Mice then it can on humans? We have stronger emune systems, we are larger and therefore require a higher doseage to cause harm. All venoms are different....I have heard that the atrox's bite is extremely painful....I have also heard that the berus' bite is also painful, but not to the scale of the atrox. But how can you tell? Each and every snakebite, whether it's from the same species or not is different. Each snakebite has different amounts of venom injected, the bites occured on different circumstances...Not forgetting that everybody is different. I could be tagged by a C. atrox, have serum administered and be ok. You, however could be tagged, and have a severe....life-threatening allergict reaction. Lots of facters come into play with snakebites.
> 
> And NO - I am not being a know all....I am just sharing how I see it and how I have learned from different people sharing knowledge.


Do you not think someone of Wolfgang Wuster's standing would have taken all of this into consideration whilst compiling his research into this?.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Alex M said:


> Do you not think someone of Wolfgang Wuster's standing would have taken all of this into consideration whilst compiling his research into this?.


 
Most deffinately.

I am friends with Wolfgang....He's one of the best at what he does,

Dont forget....Dr Bryan G. Fry ALSO conducted research for the LD50 Charts.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

ViperLover said:


> Most deffinately.
> 
> I am friends with Wolfgang....He's one of the best at what he does,
> 
> Dont forget....Dr Bryan G. Fry ALSO conducted research for the LD50 Charts.


 

I'm sorry but this is just going too far now James, I can't even believe my eyes.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> Most deffinately.
> 
> I am friends with Wolfgang....


Then i am not sure why i'm having to explain this to you, surely you'd know the basics i've outlined on this issue. My fundamental point is drop for drop berus's venom is more potent than atrox's, and that is all! - do you agree or disagree? It's very simple!.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

ViperLover said:


> I am friends with Wolfgang


Sorry I just had to make sure we'd all seen that, James, give it up pal.

"Friends" like you are friends with Viperkeeper eh???

You're just being ridiculous now.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Alex M said:


> Then i am not sure why i'm having to explain this to you, surely you'd know the basics i've outlined on this issue. My fundamental point is drop for drop berus's venom is more potent than atrox's, and that is all! - do you agree or disagree? It's very simple!.


 
I have no idea on exact Toxins....But if it's either been proven by WW or BGF...Then I guess so.

Well I wouldn;t say "Friends, friends" But I do occasionally talk to WW via Facebook....

Same as I occasionally talk to Al Coritz


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Look James, I'm embarrassed for you more than anything, I've got maybe 50 prominent names in the business added on Facebook. I wouldn't presume to call any of them "friends" nor would I say that I "know" any of them.

"Occaisionally talk[ing]" with these guys is probably the same thing every teenage lad who idolises these guys is doing on facebook day in day out. Sending someone questions, enquiring as to whether they will mentor you or complimenting them isn't "talking"...


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Saedcantas said:


> Look James, I'm embarrassed for you more than anything, I've got maybe 50 prominent names in the business added on Facebook. I wouldn't presume to call any of them "friends" nor would I say that I "know" any of them.
> 
> "Occaisionally talk[ing]" with these guys is probably the same thing every teenage lad who idolises these guys is doing on facebook day in day out. Sending someone questions, enquiring as to whether they will mentor you or complimenting them isn't "talking"...


 
I never stated I know any of them.

I post questions on their sites quite often.....Talking as in general chit-chat, replying to their posts.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

ViperLover said:


> I never stated I know any of them.
> 
> I post questions on their sites quite often.....Talking as in general chit-chat, replying to their posts.


If this was true that would be fair enough matey, the problem starts when you say things like this before backtracking;



ViperLover said:


> I am friends with Wolfgang...


Unfortunately I think we're all wasting our breath James, you aren't going to change other than in your own sweet time...
Even after the advice of the past week you've made a topic asking an interested question about _V. berus_ venom and by page 3 of it you're the one handing out the information in an authoritative tone?!? You can't see the problem so I guess I'll just leave you to it 

Lotte*


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Saedcantas said:


> If this was true that would be fair enough matey, the problem starts when you say things like this before backtracking;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I was just saying from what I had heard in other's opinions....Not dishing out information at all Lotte 

Ive just asked WW for a confirmation on the V berus thing...We'll see what he says. It does seem really hard to believe, but anything is possible

My appologies if I sounded like a ****


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

I do beg you're pardon!

After recieving confirmation from Paul Rowley, Vipera berus is over twice as toxic as C. atrox.

He also said yield comes into account.....The WDB is more dangerous as it can inject a hell of a lot more venom.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> I do beg you're pardon!
> 
> After recieving confirmation from Paul Rowley, Vipera berus is over twice as toxic as C. atrox.
> 
> He also said yield comes into account.....The WDB is more dangerous as it can inject a hell of a lot more venom.


Thankyou!.

We all know that the rattler is more dangerous due to the sheer amount of venom it pumps into you - that was never disputed!. My point on this thread was, and always has been, that berus's toxin drop for drop is double as potent as the atrox's venom (and it appears even stronger than that). Just it amazes me how underated the adders potential really is... it ain't no bee sting! (just ask Al Hyde, if he still comes on this forum?!).

Cheers
Al


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Alex M said:


> Thankyou!.
> 
> We all know that the rattler is more dangerous due to the sheer amount of venom it pumps into you - that was never disputed!. My point on this thread was, and always has been, that berus's toxin drop for drop is double as potent as the atrox's venom (and it appears even stronger than that). Just it amazes me how underated the adders potential really is... it ain't no bee sting! (just ask Al Hyde, if he still comes on this forum?!).
> 
> ...


 
LOL Sinse I posted that comment about the Bee sting, I've been doing a little research.

It deffinately ain't no Bee sting......Far from it

All bites are serious so I have read.

There must be an Antivenom for this paticular species.


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Where I live on the Isle Of Wight there are fields teeming with Common Adders. I really want to go out hunting for them! Bit scared I'll get tagged though haha.
I have an irrational fear of snakes, but they fascinate me.
ViperLover, I think you should heed everyone's advice. You seriously still seem to be trying to sound like a professional!
It's entertaining, but man you must see how frustrating it is!
Some people on here have kept snakes since before you were born. To have someone come on and spout off facts, sometimes even disagreeing with them, is sure to wind them up.
You have no experience.
Neither do I.
There's no way I would come on this DWA forum and start spouting off facts that I've read somewhere.

Take a backseat. Read other threads. Research. Read books.
Even after all these things; don't go talking as if you know stuff. Until you own a snake you are in no position to give advice or tell people what you think you know!

It makes no difference whether you want a frog, newt, snake, lizard, spider or a bloody dog; you MUST be experienced enough to own the animal. An animal's welfare and health are things you should never risk.

Over and out,
Harv


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

I am ready to pull my hair out and headbutt a brick wall!!
Have you taken no notice of all the advice given to you??
You claim that you want to keep venomous species, you have been told by many experienced keepers to start off at the bottom, yet still you spout off as if you are a leading authority.
Anyone can read a few books and trawl the internet and quote facts and figures - it doesn't mean you can actually safely work with such dangerous animals. As I said before, slow down and start to learn from the beginning. If your goal is to get a DWA, great, learn about venomous species but also learn to listen to experienced keepers and start keeping non venomous species.


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

Saedcantas said:


> If this was true that would be fair enough matey, the problem starts when you say things like this before backtracking;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lotte
*I LOVE YOU:flrt:*


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## mark elliott (Feb 5, 2007)

viperlover just a simple question for you....have you ever lived any where near Chester or doncaster ?


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

mark elliott said:


> viperlover just a simple question for you....have you ever lived any where near Chester or doncaster ?


 
Nope...I live in Southampton mate.

Why?


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## carpy (Nov 13, 2007)

and on another note, your sig is actually incorrect, red on yellow does not necessarily kill a fellow


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

carpy said:


> and on another note, your sig is actually incorrect, red on yellow does not necessarily kill a fellow


 
Nope, there's a thing called Antivenom.

But it's a Motto that has been used for years!


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## carpy (Nov 13, 2007)

it is a motto that does have limited use, but one that is slightly flawed as some species do not play by the rules.

yes there is such thing as antivenin, but due to the nature of the Micrurus venom people frequently elect not to have treatment - bad judgement. there was a recent case where an individual was bitten in belize. after no pain for an hour or so he elected not to go to hospital despite him knowing it was a "coralillo"

needless to say he was found dead the next day

look up Urotheca elapoides


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

ViperLover,

there is so much I could add to this thread from first hand experience but I'm not going to add anything to threads started or involving you (apart from this one of course) ever.

I believe you have been blocked for another forum and hope you cease your pointless posts as most of us are seriously sick of them.

Give it a rest.


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

slippery42 said:


> ViperLover,
> 
> there is so much I could add to this thread from first hand experience but I'm not going to add anything to threads started or involving you (apart from this one of course) ever.
> 
> ...


Twice! :whistling2:


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Whats the problem here? He seems polite enough, all hes doing is asking questions. Why do so many of you have him down as a numpty? Hes 17 right? When I was younger than that I would ring my local shop sometimes on a daily basis asking questions that to me where really important but to them they where stupid. I got a load of jip but I carried on and on as I wanted to talk about concepts instead of just reading texts I sometimes couldnt fully understand without discussing things. Its a shame this same dynamic is happening here, after all this is a public forum, not a scientific forum in which only valid questions are considered. Surely we are all in the same boat? ie hobbyists (mostly). James does not come across as a retarded knob with no real potential or no will to actually learn. Is there some sort of fight club rule that only the inner circle know about that is being missed here or something. 

In short, give him a break.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

I'm actually suprised by how patient and helpful the good folks of the DWA forum have been in this case 

If this young chap had taken a similar approach to say large constrictors in the general snakes forum, he'd have been genuinely flamed to death.

No one here seems to have really insulted James, a few people might have been a bit strong as they're of the opinion that he's a troll or idiot. But generally he's been given some cast iron advice by so many people it's fantastic.

No posts have had to be deleted from his topics, no posts in his topics have been reported and the single use of inappropriate language in the entirity of his topics was by him...

Luckily we have a few serious and knowledgeable keepers hanging about in this section who ought to clear up any outrageous misinformation that James might feel the need to give


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## naja (Nov 5, 2009)

thats funny i always thought that forums were for asking questions but then i realised this is rfuk. Mainly just full of people who knock others. The annoying thing is that theres prob people on here avin a go that prob dont even keep venomous. As for people telling him not to bother posting who do you think you are? ive only got one thing to say to you STAND DOWN!


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

naja said:


> thats funny i always thought that forums were for asking questions but then i realised this is rfuk. Mainly just full of people who knock others. The annoying thing is that theres prob people on here avin a go that prob dont even keep venomous. As for people telling him not to bother posting who do you think you are? ive only got one thing to say to you STAND DOWN!


The problem is that the young guy just does not seem to listen and keeps coming back for more and post seemingly pointless questions.

This is why he has been banned twice from the venomous forum.

I agree that forums are for asking q's and getting answers but ViperLover does seem OTT.

Enthusiasm is one thing but...


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## Silversnake84 (Jul 12, 2009)

well, maybe there is a herpetologist out there who happens to come onto rfuk and happens to read the adder venom question, who happens to be currently writing a paper on adder venom. i'm sure he'd love to discuss his paper in that case! sometimes people happen to know the answers to really random questions - you never know!!


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## reef (Jan 4, 2008)

anyone else concerned about any wild adders in viperlovers range ?:whip:


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

Actually it would be very unusual for a professional herpetologist to discuss details of research he might being carrying out on an amateur forum like this, certainly not until after his paper has been published. 
Venom research is what we do here in Liverpool. My colleagues have produced countless scientific papers over the years and I don’t think we have ever linked to or reproduced any of these papers on any hobbyist forums as they are usually far beyond the scope of many lay people (full of technical terms) to understand.


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## paraman (Oct 27, 2007)

ian14 said:


> I am ready to pull my hair out and headbutt a brick wall!!
> Have you taken no notice of all the advice given to you??
> You claim that you want to keep venomous species, you have been told by many experienced keepers to start off at the bottom, yet still you spout off as if you are a leading authority.
> Anyone can read a few books and trawl the internet and quote facts and figures - it doesn't mean you can actually safely work with such dangerous animals. As I said before, slow down and start to learn from the beginning. If your goal is to get a DWA, great, learn about venomous species but also learn to listen to experienced keepers and start keeping non venomous species.


I think the technical expression is "confusing ambition with ability"


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## StevetheSnake (Mar 10, 2008)

reef said:


> anyone else concerned about any wild adders in viperlovers range ?:whip:


Two words: Darwin Awards


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Saedcantas said:


> I'm actually suprised by how patient and helpful the good folks of the DWA forum have been in this case
> 
> If this young chap had taken a similar approach to say large constrictors in the general snakes forum, he'd have been genuinely flamed to death.
> 
> ...


Yes yes yes. 



naja said:


> thats funny i always thought that forums were for asking questions but then i realised this is rfuk. Mainly just full of people who knock others. The annoying thing is that theres prob people on here avin a go that prob dont even keep venomous. As for people telling him not to bother posting who do you think you are? ive only got one thing to say to you STAND DOWN!


I know what you mean, there is a lot of bitching here. Its a shame. 



slippery42 said:


> The problem is that the young guy just does not seem to listen and keeps coming back for more and post seemingly pointless questions.
> 
> This is why he has been banned twice from the venomous forum.
> 
> ...


it may irritate but its just enthusiasm like you say... Perhaps an over 18 rule should be applied to this forum?


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Gaboon said:


> it may irritate but its just enthusiasm like you say... Perhaps an over 18 rule should be applied to this forum?


 
Why an over 18 rule? One that cannot tollerate a beginner just should simply not post. There are two people....*they know who they are *that have been totally arrogent towards every post I have made.

Yes, you may be an experienced keeper, YES you may have learned the hard way and certainly YES...You were in my shoes when you first started.

This is a forum to learn, not a forum to be pushed about.


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

ViperLover said:


> Why an over 18 rule? One that cannot tollerate a beginner just should simply not post. There are two people....*they know who they are *that have been totally arrogent towards every post I have made.
> 
> Yes, you may be an experienced keeper, YES you may have learned the hard way and certainly YES...You were in my shoes when you first started.
> 
> This is a forum to learn, not a forum to be pushed about.


Yeah im with you, only difference is I have no desire to keep DWA's unless for more of a purpose than a just a hobby. 

An over 18 rule was more a suggestion for the intolerant but it wont happen.


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## thetong6969 (Apr 20, 2009)

personaly i cannot think why everyone has a go at viperlover
yes he's 16 so what?
he's also very very interested in venemous and reptiles in general 
there is not enough information on forums about a lot of stuff and in the uk peoples attitudes do seem to come accross offensive at times(wether meant or not)
give him a break
on the added point anyone with any proper info on hognose bite and venom and not heresay please pm me and i would be very happy 
many thamnks and yeah ive googled it to death


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## Azemiops (May 1, 2008)

thetong6969 said:


> personaly i cannot think why everyone has a go at viperlover
> yes he's 16 so what?
> he's also very very interested in venemous and reptiles in general
> there is not enough information on forums about a lot of stuff and in the uk peoples attitudes do seem to come accross offensive at times(wether meant or not)
> ...


I dont think its got anything to do with his age. His attitude at the beginning coupled with his inexperience yet eagerness to hand out bad advice has left a sour taste in the mouths of many. Yes some people have come across 'offensive at times', i was offended when he PM'ed me calling me a ‘complete an utter dick’, because i pointed out the several incorrect things he had said (well i wasnt really offended, i actually found it quite amusing).
I have said this before but i shall repeat it once more. If i went on to the general snake area and started telling people that Emerald Tree Boas make excellent beginners snakes and that im buying myself a Boelens Python as my first snake, id get absolutely slaughtered with little to no sympathy, and im sure that the many experienced boid keepers on this forum would be offened that someone with no experience was dishing out rubbish advice. So how is this viperlover guy posting rubbish on the DWA section any different? I personally took offence that someone (regardless of age) started telling somebody else that 'copperheads are easy going snakes that just sit there', when they had absolutely no experience of working with snakes, let alone copperheads. And then some people have gone on to suggest that the DWA keepers on here are acting ‘elitist’ because we pointed out some very bad advice! 
Anyway, James apologised for his PM to me, and im sure that if he takes onboard some of the advice he has been giving and starts to think a bit more about what he’s actually posting, he’ll do just fine.


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

The subtle difference being that if you get nailed by a GTP.. it hurts, alot.. but you get nailed by _Crotalus adamanteus,_ you are in a whole world of trouble... especially if no one knows you have it!

Are people who deal with hots elitest? Not really, they just know that they take their lives in their hands everytime they have to interact with the species, and have usually went to lengths to make sure that everyone around them (that matters) knows, and as much prep for the worst case is made as is possible.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

LeviathanNI said:


> The subtle difference being that if you get nailed by a GTP.. it hurts, alot.. but you get nailed by _Crotalus adamanteus,_ you are in a whole world of trouble... especially if no one knows you have it!
> 
> Are people who deal with hots elitest? Not really, they just know that they take their lives in their hands everytime they have to interact with the species, and have usually went to lengths to make sure that everyone around them knows, and as much prep for the worst case is made as is possible.


 
True...

But what made you pick _Crotalus adamanteus?_ I was thinking more on the lines of the _Bothrops genus. :2thumb:_


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## carpy (Nov 13, 2007)

ViperLover said:


> True...
> 
> But what made you pick _Crotalus adamanteus?_ I was thinking more on the lines of the _Bothrops genus. :2thumb:_


Bothrops are nasty yes, but crotalus are pretty nasty also. for example Crotalus durissus has both neuro and haemotoxins in its venom - you really dont wanna get nailed by durissus. generally speaking they behave themselves, but the odd ones seem to have the snake equivalent of pmt the whole time

i haven't dealt with adamanteus but i understand they are one of the more feared of north american rattlers


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

carpy said:


> Bothrops are nasty yes, but crotalus are pretty nasty also. for example Crotalus durissus has both neuro and haemotoxins in its venom - you really dont wanna get nailed by durissus. generally speaking they behave themselves, but the odd ones seem to have the snake equivalent of pmt the whole time
> 
> i haven't dealt with adamanteus but i understand they are one of the more feared of north american rattlers


 
I have heard they are very feared, also. And for good reason.....The venom yield, combined with the haemotoxic affect of the venom isn't a pleasant combination.

Crotalus durissus - Man, I hope I never get nailed by one of these. There are unpleasant animals....And so I have been told by venomous handlers who work with these, that these are right up there with the toxitity of their venom.

Back to Diamondbacks....I have also been told by people who keep them that Westerns, and Easterns will stand and hold their ground, and they aren't scared to take a strike or two, and an aquientance of mine said that she has even known them to be very agressive.


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

ViperLover said:


> True...
> 
> But what made you pick _Crotalus adamanteus?_ I was thinking more on the lines of the _Bothrops genus. :2thumb:_


Simply because I came across them more than any other when I lived out there.. and so always reminded myself never to become complacent, no matter how familar you become.


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## Silversnake84 (Jul 12, 2009)

PDR said:


> Actually it would be very unusual for a professional herpetologist to discuss details of research he might being carrying out on an amateur forum like this, certainly not until after his paper has been published.
> Venom research is what we do here in Liverpool. My colleagues have produced countless scientific papers over the years and I don’t think we have ever linked to or reproduced any of these papers on any hobbyist forums as they are usually far beyond the scope of many lay people (full of technical terms) to understand.


Awesome  Well, he wouldn't have to give too much away obv, but just a simplified explanation of venoms if he happened to know and happened to be doing some 'research' on 'laypeople' owning reptiles to come across the forum in the first place (I don't know, just an e.g.). I think this was why people were getting annoyed at someone on here for asking questions that are too in-depth in the first place as nobody knew the answer. 

I know a Dr. of herpetology and study under him and he agrees that everyone who owns specialist animals should have some degree of in-depth knowledge of them. I suppose people who simply want to show off a large snake to their mates probably can't be bothered with technical terms and maybe couldn't care less about its biology as long as it eats and poops and appears healthy, but personally I think that it'd be amazing to have more scientific literature available and knowledgeable people on sites like this so reptile keepers can read more and learn about their reptiles if they choose to. If owners don't want to bother, they can ignore it, but for people who are genuinely intrigued by reptiles the information, even if it is very much simplified, is there for them


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## carpy (Nov 13, 2007)

ViperLover said:


> I have heard they are very feared, also. And for good reason.....*The venom yield, combined with the haemotoxic affect of the venom isn't a pleasant combination.*
> 
> Crotalus durissus - Man, I hope I never get nailed by one of these. There are unpleasant animals....And so *I have been told by venomous handlers who work with these*, that these are right up there with the toxitity of their venom.
> 
> Back to Diamondbacks....*I have also been told by people who keep them* that Westerns, and Easterns will stand and hold their ground, and they aren't scared to take a strike or two, and *an aquientance of mine said that she has even known them to be very agressive*.


you are doing it again mate. i am still relatively young, i still have alot to learn. there are some people on here with decades of experience with hots. you come on here as someone who quite possibly has never even seen a hot at close quarters, and yet you are saying things like this, "i have been told by venomous handlers" talking of their venom as though you have first hand experience.

you need to tone down dude, anyone can be a google expert. 

out of interest who are these people you know that keep westerns and easterns? who is this acquaintance who knows them to be agressive?

just take a step back, spend more time reading, stop attempting to justify yourself and impress people, and stop making out you are full of knowledge - all you are doing is regurgitating other peoples information, either as your own or by deliberately mentioning that you know a hot keeper or whatever

it is getting you nowhere - and every time you do this you are going a step back instead of forward. when you come to look into a DWA license should that ever happen, it is these people you will look at for advice and help. they will not go out of their way to help you if you keep on as you are


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

I agree withy you Carpy
I have been into Herps for nearly 30 years and i can proberby only name about a dozen, if that, venomous keepers i have met and out of that i could proberbly omly name 2 or 3 that were/are genuine friends and the a couple more who i could proberbly say are aquaintancys, and i dont include any of the guys on this or any other forum in this list as i frankly dont know them personaly at the moment. 

And i would proberbly say that most of the guys who keep DWA on here are in a similar position, so for someone so young and new to the hobby to say they have so many friends and aquaintancies in the game its no wonder people are getting the hump with viperlover


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## StevetheSnake (Mar 10, 2008)

his acquaintances are facebook 'friends' one of which has come on here and said he is full of bull.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> I have heard they are very feared, also. And for good reason.....The venom yield, combined with the haemotoxic affect of the venom isn't a pleasant combination.
> 
> Crotalus durissus - Man, I hope I never get nailed by one of these. There are unpleasant animals....And so I have been told by venomous handlers who work with these, that these are right up there with the toxitity of their venom.
> 
> Back to Diamondbacks....I have also been told by people who keep them that Westerns, and Easterns will stand and hold their ground, and they aren't scared to take a strike or two, and an aquientance of mine said that she has even known them to be very agressive.


For someone who started a thread seeking advice on starting a venomous collection and requested mentoring, you seem to know a lot of people who already have experience and keep these snakes. Why didn't you simpley ask them for help..?

Let me re-word your post:



> I have heard


 * I've watched a video and it mentioned *


> And for good reason.....The venom yield, combined with the haemotoxic affect of the venom isn't a pleasant combination.


 * or at least that's what the narrator said*



> Crotalus durissus - Man, I hope I never get nailed by one of these. There are unpleasant animals....And so I have been told by venomous handlers who work with these


* the video featured a couple of chaps who work with these species*


> , that these are right up there with the toxitity of their venom.
> 
> Back to Diamondbacks....I have also been told by people who keep them that Westerns, and Easterns


 * I read in a book or on wikipedia *


> will stand and hold their ground, and they aren't scared to take a strike or two, and an aquientance of mine


 * a woman on the video *


> said that she has even known them to be very agressive.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Malc said:


> For someone who started a thread seeking advice on starting a venomous collection and requested mentoring, you seem to know a lot of people who already have experience and keep these snakes. Why didn't you simpley ask them for help..?
> 
> Let me re-word your post:
> 
> ...


 
I have about 40 or so people on Facebook who work with Reptiles.

I have asked them about it....and they have given similar advice and stories, and said it;s best for local knowledge....so to use this forum.

They are in the states for the majority.....Or very far away from me in the UK such as Wales or Scotland etc. Chris Mchale is the only one who is reletively close, and hes in Kent.

These people are aquientances...I don't know them, but I do take their advice, and their experience with respect.

Chris Law never posted that I was full of bull....He simply tried explaining that I was similar here then what I was when I first started asking questions.

I have been interesting in reptiles sinse Ii was a youngen....I started to think about the hobby seriously, so I started looking for videos of hots on youtube to see what they venomous keepers do....I found a guy called Soulstealer9yrl or something like that....And I was messaging him for a few weeks asking questions, and he told me some very good info, and some good advice. He recomended I check out Viperkeeper....so I did I subscribed to Al's channel, saw a few videos.....Searched for him on FB, and through time....more names in the business has popped up and I have been getting more info on keeping reptiles.....This forum has also been a great help.


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> I have heard they are very feared, also. And for good reason.....*The venom yield, combined with the haemotoxic affect of the venom isn't a pleasant combination.*
> 
> Crotalus durissus - Man, I hope I never get nailed by one of these. There are unpleasant animals....And so I have been told by venomous handlers who work with these, that these are right up there with the toxitity of their venom.
> 
> Back to Diamondbacks....I have also been told by people who keep them that Westerns, and Easterns will stand and hold their ground, and they aren't scared to take a strike or two, and an aquientance of mine said that she has even known them to be very agressive.


That is a huge understatement
Stubbing your toe or getting soaked to the skin in the rain is “not pleasant”.... but being bitten by a Crotalus and ending up in ITU is a whole different league. I’m sure that you have no comprehension of just how dangerous venomous snakes are or the level of pain involved following a bite.
I have taken bites from Crotalus durissus and Crotalus atrox in the past and I can azure you they were very serious bites and in the case of the C. atrox bite extremely painful. The side effects of the antivenom were also serious.


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## pythondave82 (Nov 14, 2007)

Viper Lover – as a general rule_ C. adamanteus_ are more easy going snakes, they are alert from the minute you open the viv, but more on an inquisitive basis – I have been keeping them for a few years now, they do occasionally rattle and strike, but, far less than _C. atrox_. 

_Crotalus atrox_ as a general rule will rattle for hours on end – if you get to close, you can count on a bite.

_Crotalus durissus_ again seem to be more relaxed, I find they can take-off without any kind of warning – almost moving like an elapid, if you are in a small room, you can find yourself cornered within a split second. My large _C. horridus_ likes to do the same; he will rattle and strike as well though. Also, murder on the hook! 

I’m not sure all of this talk about venom is even worth discussing. Stating that a South American rattlesnake has one kind of venom or this that and the other is such a brief and inaccurate statement, it’s not worth the paper it’s written on. Too many people talk about rattlers along with other pitvipers having haemotoxic venom and elapids having neurotoxic venoms – yes to a certain degree you are correct, but it really describes nothing accurate about the venom. If you want to learn more about venom, buy a good book!

Cheers, 

Dave


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

PDR said:


> That is a huge understatement
> Stubbing your toe or getting soaked to the skin in the rain is “not pleasant”.... but being bitten by a Crotalus and ending up in ITU is a whole different league. I’m sure that you have no comprehension of just how dangerous venomous snakes are or the level of pain involved following a bite.
> I have taken bites from Crotalus durissus and Crotalus atrox in the past and I can azure you they were very serious bites and in the case of the C. atrox bite extremely painful. The side effects of the antivenom were also serious.


 
Oh, wow! What serum did you recieve? CroFab??I imagine getting tagged is just horrible.

What sort of side affects come from Crofab?


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

pythondave82 said:


> Viper Lover – as a general rule_ C. adamanteus_ are more easy going snakes, they are alert from the minute you open the viv, but more on an inquisitive basis – I have been keeping them for a few years now, they do occasionally rattle and strike, but, far less than _C. atrox_.
> 
> _Crotalus atrox_ as a general rule will rattle for hours on end – if you get to close, you can count on a bite.
> 
> ...


Any book in particular spring to mind as a good introduction to venom composition? Purely out of interest. 

James - I know you probably know of this page but you cant have read it all. Venomous Snake Links


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Gaboon said:


> Any book in particular spring to mind as a good introduction to venom composition? Purely out of interest.
> 
> James - I know you probably know of this page but you cant have read it all. Venomous Snake Links


 
That's WW's website for Bangor Uni right? And noooo I haven't read any of it.


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

ViperLover said:


> That's WW's website for Bangor Uni right? And noooo I haven't read any of it.


Yeah. Its a great source of info.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Gaboon said:


> Yeah. Its a great source of info.


 
I'm gonna make print-outs of the pages to read....I'll do this when I go to college tomorrow. Cheers!


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