# Anyone got list of Geckos that can live at room temperature



## real-star-act (Apr 14, 2010)

I am looking to find out what Geckos can live at room temperature

I know and already have several Crested Geckos and Cave Geckos and just wondering what other Geckos there are

Thanks


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## Jasberfloob (Dec 20, 2011)

Leachies (my room temp for the reps is 22-24 tho!)


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## c_1993 (Jun 10, 2011)

Nothing should really be kept at room temp IMO, every lizard needs to thermoregulate.

My crestie isn't kept at room temp, he has a basking area of 30c and a cooler area of 22-24c.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

It's not so much as nothing should be kept a room temperature, it's more everything should have a gradient.
I know goniurosaurus like it pretty cool but if their cool side has to be 16 or something then the warm side could be the typical 'room temperature'


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## davidfitch (Nov 19, 2008)

c_1993 said:


> Nothing should really be kept at room temp IMO, every lizard needs to thermoregulate.
> 
> My crestie isn't kept at room temp, he has a basking area of 30c and a cooler area of 22-24c.


But the lights will give u a hot side and allow thermoregulation with room temp just being for background heat and a drop at night.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## blabble182 (Dec 26, 2010)

wanting something just cause its easy to keep at room temps and it will survive is pretty lazy in my opinion. all reptiles should be given some means of thermoregulation, could be a heat source or it could be a cooling method for some of the other species but it should be provided. things like cresties, leos, pygmy chams etc can all live in a room temp enviroment but you see a massive difference when you provide hotspots and gradients


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## c_1993 (Jun 10, 2011)

davidfitch said:


> But the lights will give u a hot side and allow thermoregulation with room temp just being for background heat and a drop at night.
> 
> Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


Yeah you'll have a basking spot so a hot side but also a cool side, the rep has options.

With room temp you've more or less got one constant temp which imo is not fair they should be given the option of a hot spot and a cool spot.

I've no experience with any species who require cooling rather than heating so I can't comment


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## JonnyFrilledDragonLawson (Oct 26, 2012)

depends what you class as room temp.. in my house its about 10 degrees but i try keep the reptile room at 15-20 degrees so the bulbs/mats use less power to keep the vivs upto temp


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

This 'every reptile should have a basking spot' argument is quite frankly nonsense......

If a reptile lives in a natural environment where the temperature gets down to say 10c for a period of time, can someone tell me how it thermoregulates? Where's these places outside that miraculously maintain a gradient? If its 10c its 10c unless they are finding underground spots or somewhere that's heated by other means like a house.....

That's why some animals hibernate, partly as they need to avoid low temperatures. Those that don't, can cope with the temps.

Also, 'room temperature' for most people would be around 12-26c I'd imagine, depending on how they run their heating system.

Sounds like a range of temps that changes through the seasons to me......

OP - I keep eurydactylodes species at room temps. With no other heating, same as my gonis.

I'll prepare for the flaming.


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## JonnyFrilledDragonLawson (Oct 26, 2012)

i was thinking this.. the fact that they would be able to go from 28-22 degrees in the wild by simply walking 4 feet is rediculous, how they would thermoregulate in the wild is by burrowing or going in the shade etc 

but that said i do agree with having a basking spot as although these reptiles might be able to survive without one like they would in the wild, im sure they enjoy them and would like the option of one in the wild.. and aint we all here to give our reptiles the best life we can?


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## c_1993 (Jun 10, 2011)

Yeah of course they manage to survive in the wild through the harshest of conditions.

But we are talking about captive reps, where we try our best to provide them with the best conditions, we aren't going to subject them to the harsh conditions of the wild are we?


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Many keepers go to great lengths to 'replicate the natural environment' in their setups. Surely that's a contradiction if you then offer artificial levels of heat and/or light?

Many geckos are nocturnal, gonis certainly are. How do they get a wide temperature range at night, pretty sure there aren't basking spots in temperate forests at night......

I'm not against heat and gradients, I use them for my Leos. What I'm saying is, understand the animals natural environment and what it has adapted to over millions of years. If its active in the day and lives in an area that has extremes of heat and cold then replicate that. If it is nocturnal and lives somewhere that has a fairly level temperature range that varies through the seasons, replicate that.

Nobody can say that providing unnatural levels of heat makes a gecko 'happier'.
It may show different behaviours, but so what? Put a fox in a chicken coop it may look 'happy',it may even benefit, but is it natural?


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## micky0 (Jul 25, 2012)

My crestie was kept at room temp for the first few months, Lots are told this is OK. NO it is not OK if you want them to live good healthy lives! I now have a heat bulb above his viv. He eats better, moves more (earlier) and is happier. Why get a reptile if you are not going to give them a heat source, even if its just a heat mat. If you are not willing to spend the money now, leave it till you can then get a rep! It is winter now, mine was OK at first in the summer even then I had a heat mat, but room is very warm and I did not need it.


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## micky0 (Jul 25, 2012)

Big Red One said:


> Many keepers go to great lengths to 'replicate the natural environment' in their setups. Surely that's a contradiction if you then offer artificial levels of heat and/or light?
> 
> Many geckos are nocturnal, gonis certainly are. How do they get a wide temperature range at night, pretty sure there aren't basking spots in temperate forests at night......
> 
> ...


You can tell if animal is happy if you take notice, ie eating more moving more and it being healthy is it being happy :lol2:


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Big Red One said:


> Many keepers go to great lengths to 'replicate the natural environment' in their setups. Surely that's a contradiction if you then offer artificial levels of heat and/or light?
> 
> Many geckos are nocturnal, gonis certainly are. How do they get a wide temperature range at night, pretty sure there aren't basking spots in temperate forests at night......
> 
> ...


I agree with BRO. I offer my cresteds natural levels of temperatures, some are seen as 'extreme' but they're naturally evolved to deal with it and during times of high heat they have options to get away from it.

I'm not sure how you can say goniurosaurus don't need heat gradients though, doesn't the genus cover a huge range of species, some coming from areas with seasons of pretty high heat?
Like you said, replicate the seasons and when it's natural to have gradients such as day time, summer etc.
I know goni species are creatures of the depth of night so it could be true that even in the wild they don't actively thermoregulate and just hide deep within leaf litter etc but unless you go do a wild study on them and noone offers heat and light gradients in captivity how do you know that they don't utilise it in either situations.

And the eurydactylodes are from New Caledonia, a tropical habitat so should definitely have a thermal gradient just like cresteds. Mine have one and they are continually use it.
I'm not sure why people resist thermal gradients so strongly, it makes nocturnal lizards so much more interesting.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Chris18 said:


> I agree with BRO. I offer my cresteds natural levels of temperatures, some are seen as 'extreme' but they're naturally evolved to deal with it and during times of high heat they have options to get away from it.
> 
> I'm not sure how you can say goniurosaurus don't need heat gradients though, doesn't the genus cover a huge range of species, some coming from areas with seasons of pretty high heat?
> Like you said, replicate the seasons and when it's natural to have gradients such as day time, summer etc.
> ...


Chris, you're right in saying that some goni species natural temps are different. But overall, my 'room temperatures' are within a close enough range that I'm happy covers all the species. 

Remember that some reptiles benefit from a 'cooling period' or 'period of inactivity'. If you offer the same temps all year round you aren't giving that natural wind down. Certain animals would breed all year round for example if not given this, which can be very detrimental.

As for New Caledonia, the temp ranges are clear to see. I've posted them on a previous link....

I go back o my earlier point too, if its 10c or whatever temp it is outside (particularly at night), its 10c. You won't find somewhere that's suddenly 18c 'naturally' unless you are talking about somewhere that has seen a higher temp during the day and rocks etc have held that heat. 
I'm not talking about that scenario though.....


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

I'm very interested in this issue and its only recently I've gone off the idea of keeping any reptile at 'room temperature' with no gradient (I used to do this with my Crested Gecko who is now rehomed with someone else).

That was until I read more about keeping native British species. Many people think the Adder or Grass snake dont need any heat if kept in captivity, after all they live here, so why do they need it right?

Wrong, take the adder for instance, its *optimal* body temp is 25-30c (Howard Inns, 2011). With no extra heat source how does it reach this if your room temp is 22c or lower? Sure, it would probably be ok at lower temperatures but surely allowing it to get to its optimal body temperature would be more benefical for it.

I have to wonder what a Crested Geckos optimal body temperature is 

Howard Inns (2011). Britain’s Reptiles and Amphibians. 2nd ed. Old Basing, Hampshire: WILDGuides.


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## Jesterone (Sep 30, 2012)

What is room temperature? 

I bet my room temp is different from yours. And I bet it gets real cold when me and the OH are at work. 

I agree with those that say no reptile should be kept at one temperature. A heat source should be provided for any species, as well as a means to escape that heat source if necessary. 

Reptiles in the wild get a virtually infinite space to wander and receive different temps and environments. As well as stone that holds the heat from the sun throughout the night (For those that've nocturnal/crepuscular), and other crevices and the like. 

People can survive in extreme conditions, but we do our best to avoid them! Same goes for all animals.


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## rita1 (Aug 24, 2012)

the crestie is nocturnal yes, but remember the temp can get up to 30 in New Caledonia in the day but at night it's still very warm 26. 
so why does my crestie sleep under the heat lamp every night he has the same setup on the other side of his viv where it is down to 20, but no he sleeps every night under the heat lamp which is set up at 26 so mine has the choice for warm or not, the people who do not offer heat does not give their crestie choice.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Jesterone said:


> What is room temperature?
> 
> .



Room temperature isn't the temperature of a room, but a generalised term for the comfortable temperature of a room... Which is around 19 - 24c, so when the term 'room temperature' is used, it should mean between 19 - 24c


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## Jesterone (Sep 30, 2012)

Meko said:


> Room temperature isn't the temperature of a room, but a generalised term for the comfortable temperature of a room... Which is around 19 - 24c, so when the term 'room temperature' is used, it should mean between 19 - 24c


Thanks Meko :thumb:

My point is that the room in which you keep your vivarium will not only have a different temprature to my room, but also other rooms in your own home. 

I have terrible 'economy' heating. In the winter, even I'm cold!


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Big Red One said:


> Chris, you're right in saying that some goni species natural temps are different. But overall, my 'room temperatures' are within a close enough range that I'm happy covers all the species.
> 
> Remember that some reptiles benefit from a 'cooling period' or 'period of inactivity'. If you offer the same temps all year round you aren't giving that natural wind down. Certain animals would breed all year round for example if not given this, which can be very detrimental.
> 
> ...


If they're truley clear to see then why have you not provided a thermal gradient for your Eurydactylodes?
The temperature range in NC hardly changes throughout the season, they have a hot and rainy season and then a hot and dry season. I think their breeding cycle is triggered by varying air pressures and the UV index since more rain means more cloud cover which means lower UV levels.
Ofcourse that's just NC Geckos and ofcourse some animals experience seasons with obvious temperature flucuations and these should definietly be replicated.
I'm in no way saying reptiles should have access 24/7, 365 days a year, I'm simply saying they should have it where it's appropriate.
Like I said in my post, maybe Goniurosaurus don't thermal regulate in the wild but that cannot be stated as a fact.

I do not agree that animals should have substaintial thermal gradients during the night at all. I'm talking about Dirunal thermal gradients for 'nocturnal species' and ofcourse in proper proportion.

Coming back to Goniurosaurus and thermal gradients though.
My question to you is do you think the genus has evolved a different system to other lizards then?
What we all 'know' is that typical lizards utilise several temperature zones for different purposes. A optimum temperature for gaining energy/digesting food etc, a cooler temperature for sleeping etc. and I'm sure the list goes on. Are you saying that Goniurosaurus as a genus (that's how you're treating them) has adapted to not use this method? or would you agree you're supply them with one of those temperatures and not the others by only providing 'room temperature'.
Your temperature could infact be too high for the genus thus making their metabolism faster than it should be, meaning more eating, more activity etc. If it's not too warm then it could be to cool, meaning less acitivty, less eating etc.
That's why thermal gradients using bulbs are so important compared to heat mats, they provide a range of temperatures so the animal can chose what temperature best fits the occasion. I'm not asking for you to provide your Gonis with temps of 30c because that's ridicidulous but I'm sure in their natural habitat in the day they have temperature gradients which they may utilise.
I don't know where they live naturally but even if it's leaf litter a thermal gradient still exists, dig deeper during the day it'll be cooler and at night hotter than air temperature and the leaf litter above it.
I'm not implying Gonis sit out and bask, it's silly to think that it would be the only way in which animals thermoregulate.

I've tried convincing thermal gradients are a good idea for ages now, mainly because of Andy's study and it finally seems to be working as more people are buying into the idea. Unfortunetly it seems people are automatically thinking they're the brains about the subject and are now posting complete garbage about it.
I know I push for thermal gradients a lot but I think what I say is mostly accurate and researched others not so much.

Edit: I'm sure everyone will agree it's impossible to replicate natural temperatures. Captive animals are typically provided with continous temperatures and for me this isn't ideal, the temperature, if to be as close to natural as possible has to vary from day to day. there has to be days where the temperatures aren't allowed to reach optimum because this definietly wouldn't happen in the wild as weather varies hugely.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Chris18 said:


> The temperature range in NC hardly changes throughout the season
> 
> *Really ????*
> The average temperature in Noumea, New Caledonia is 22.7 °C (73 °F).
> ...


* So how do you achieve this - randomly twiddle your stat each morning?

Come on Chris, you seem to be a nice guy, please don't go round slating folk.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, different methods of keeping can achieve the same aim, rep keeping is a learning curve.

I MAY BE WRONG - but then again I may be right, you don't know, neither do I. A couple of people have posted saying you can tell when a rep is 'happy', all I can say is that mine all do what I expect of them, from my RESEARCH. Therefore I assume they are doing OK, my eyes and brain seem to function reasonably well..................

:Na_Na_Na_Na::2thumb:*


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Big Red One said:


> So how do you achieve this - randomly twiddle your stat each morning?
> 
> Come on Chris, you seem to be a nice guy, please don't go round slating folk.
> 
> ...


You've replied in the most pain in the bum way I've ever seen :devil:
I went through reading all the red bits and was ready to hit reply then saw the black bits so I have to go through it again.....:lol2:


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

I keep my E.agricolae, crested gecko and leachianus gecko at "room temp"

My room temp is quite warm though as it is my reptile room/bed room.

All of the above have uv lights and I found that this makes a difference to activity, feeding and colour.

I would recommend where possible and safe to use a uv light, I dont know if there are any uv sensitive species but you get the idea.

All these geckos thrive at this temp that is around 23 degrees in the day and around 18 at night. 

I believe quite a few lizards can be kept at room temps, I think pygmy leaf chameleons can?

All rhacs, Eurodacylodes, and most of the other lizards from new caledonia


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Right, I can't even copy and paste the quote you made of mine so I can't qoute the bits directly so answerings all the questions individually would take forever so I'll try make it general.

The thing is I'm not saying I'm right, I don't know much about Gonis in the wild and which areas of x habitat they would be found so I'm generalising a bit.
Most of the points I'm making are stated as questions, certainly not facts.


The first question was when I feel it appropriate to have thermal gradients, and I've already stated the answer, wide thermal gradients should be provided when it's natural for the animal in questions so for example when it's their summer day time in the wild. In winter very narrow gradients should be provided as obviously the sun is the main cause for wide gradients, in winter the sun is low and doesn't effect the temperatures as much meaning lower ranges.

Do you honestly believe that 'nocturnal' reptiles will only thermoregulate or even move during the evening/night or was that just Gonis?
my Cresteds, Eurydactylodes and Strophurus all almost continously move through out the day to thermoregulate.

If you can give me some insite into what type of areas they inhabit maybe I can try work out how they would go about thermal regulating. Leaf litter was an example, the deeper you dig into leaf littter the more stable get, in other words, if a Goni is hiding amounts the leaf litter in the day and is at a near surface level, it'll get warmer than if it dug down to substrate level, they could use this to their advantage to warm up near the top while still staying hidden then throughout the day dig deeper to become cooler.

As for 'cooking' your Gonis, that's nonesense, if you're doing thermal gradients correctly it's impossible to cook anything. It's 100% safe unless the animal wants to cook itself.

(it's letting me C+P again now ¬_¬)

''Your temperature could infact be too high for the genus thus making their metabolism faster than it should be, meaning more eating, more activity etc. If it's not too warm then it could be to cool, meaning less acitivty, less eating etc. *Yup - could be, then so could the ranges you are providing.''*

The point of ranges is to supply the natural temperatures within the enviroment in a safe way, you supply the natural habitat, your animal uses it like it's instinct say it should. If it's based on natural temperatures how can it be wrong?

''So which is it, you're sure they have or 'may utilise' ? If they are asleep in a cave/under rocks, do you honestly think they will get up and have a little mooch about in broad daylight for a spot a few degrees different ?''

It's both..... They have thermal gradients available to them in the day when it gets hot in the forest, they may use them, or they may stay static under your rock that stays a static temperature if that makes more sense to you?

''I've tried convincing thermal gradients are a good idea for ages now, mainly because of Andy's study and it finally seems to be working as more people are buying into the idea. Unfortunetly it seems people are automatically thinking they're the brains about the subject and are now posting complete garbage about it. :whistling2::whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:
I know I push for thermal gradients a lot but *I think what I say is mostly accurate and researched others not so much. Whereas I just pluck stuff from thin air....''

This wasn't really aimed at you, and maybe I pluck stuff from the air, that's why I'm open to suggestions/critques/input.

''Edit: I'm sure everyone will agree it's impossible to replicate natural temperatures. Captive animals are typically provided with continous temperatures and for me this isn't ideal, the temperature, if to be as close to natural as possible has to vary from day to day. there has to be days where the temperatures aren't allowed to reach optimum because this definietly wouldn't happen in the wild as weather varies hugely.So how do you achieve this - randomly twiddle your stat each morning?''

Or maybe a low watt energy efficient bulb which turns on seperate to your heat emitting bulb so they can have 'day light' but not a hot day? 

Arguments about thermal gradients aren't about animals being 'happy' it's about them thriving.... Andy's study showed that Cresteds supplied with no thermal gradients survived but they did not do as well as those supplied with a choice.
So I guess it's down to two things, do they naturally thermoregulate and do you want your geckos to survive or thrive in your care.

I'll say it again like I did in my previous comments, I'm not saying Goniurosaurus which covers a few species with a huge natural range definietly thermoregulate, I'm just trying to open your mind to the possibility they might do.*


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

MP reptiles said:


> I keep my E.agricolae, crested gecko and leachianus gecko at "room temp"
> 
> My room temp is quite warm though as it is my reptile room/bed room.
> 
> ...


Marius, you've picked your words wrong.

All species mentioned can survive at 'room temperature'
Andy's study shows atleast Crested Geckos don't thrive at room temperature and since other NC geckos inhabit the same range and I've noticed a better response from the Eurydactlodes than the CGs to thermal gradients I'd say the same for those too.


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

Chris18 said:


> Marius, you've picked your words wrong.
> 
> All species mentioned can survive at 'room temperature'
> Andy's study shows atleast Crested Geckos don't thrive at room temperature and since other NC geckos inhabit the same range and I've noticed a better response from the Eurydactlodes than the CGs to thermal gradients I'd say the same for those too.


I'm always interested in the science behind exotic keeping, to be honest I reckon theres more science to it than the average keeper can be bothered to look at. Too many people content to look at one care sheet and follow it to the letter without questioning it.

Where this study you keep mentioning Chris? I'd like to see it:2thumb:


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

Chris18 said:


> Marius, you've picked your words wrong.
> 
> All species mentioned can survive at 'room temperature'
> Andy's study shows atleast Crested Geckos don't thrive at room temperature and since other NC geckos inhabit the same range and I've noticed a better response from the Eurydactlodes than the CGs to thermal gradients I'd say the same for those too.


i suppose, but then again it will down to all other factors that we may not know fully. In the wild what does and what doesnt retain heat, do the crested geckos live beside places that retain heat etc. That is a really random example granted, but every setup is different, I know that my cresty spends loads of time under the uv which proves to me they do use it to heat up and as such I think it should be provided.

Thrived and survivng both have grey areas, to me being able to survive would mean having the bare minimum, and I think at room temp with a uv light she has more than the bare minimum.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

bash_on_recce said:


> I'm always interested in the science behind exotic keeping, to be honest I reckon theres more science to it than the average keeper can be bothered to look at. Too many people content to look at one care sheet and follow it to the letter without questioning it.
> 
> Where this study you keep mentioning Chris? I'd like to see it:2thumb:


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/675205-death-myths-correct-heating-protocols.html



MP reptiles said:


> i suppose, but then again it will down to all other factors that we may not know fully. In the wild what does and what doesnt retain heat, do the crested geckos live beside places that retain heat etc. That is a really random example granted, but every setup is different, I know that my cresty spends loads of time under the uv which proves to me they do use it to heat up and as such I think it should be provided.
> 
> Thrived and survivng both have grey areas, to me being able to survive would mean having the bare minimum, and I think at room temp with a uv light she has more than the bare minimum.


Its got nothing to do with heat retention, I'm talking DIRUNAL gradients so air temperature mostly although I'm sure other species utilise other methods.

You're right, surviving has grey areas, thriving doesn't. You cannot 'thrive a lot', thriving is optimal.

See I'm confused, you've just said they use the UV to heat up which will provide some gradient but not much at all but then you don't think they should have the option to 'bask' at temperatures that their natural range can reach?


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Chris,

You're not seeing my point mate......

I'm not saying gonis or any genus you care to mention 'won't/don't' thermoregulate to an extent. I've spoke to other goni keepers who go with your stance and offer heated areas. They believe its beneficial and see more activity etc etc...

BUT, that's not my point.

As I said earlier - a fox in a chicken coop may show increased levels of feeding behaviour, may have a benefit to its overall health and indeed be 'happier'.
It doesn't mean that you are replicating its natural behaviour or habitat. Another fox analogy is of urban foxes, widely regarded to now be more 'successful'. Ie they are active in the daytime and breed well etc. But is scavenging KFC from bins in a town centre really 'better'?
What's the measurement ? The thing is its not what that animal evolved to live like.

Back to temps.
If you had a reptile that lived happily (ie had evolved to live) in UK conditions (like we actually have). Would you give them a temp gradient and if so what and how ? Or would you feel happy keeping one in an outdoor enclosure with no artificial heat - like it would naturally?

I'm sure there would be no need to offer a grass snake or slow worm a 200w ceramic in January, despite the fact it may utilise it......


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Big Red One said:


> Chris,
> 
> You're not seeing my point mate......
> 
> ...


Both the fox situations are unnatural, temps of 30c is not for Cresteds at the height of summer.
I'm not saying anyone should do anything that is naturally beyond what is possible in their natural environments.
I would 100% be happy keeping it outside as long as it has the proper means to thermoregulate like they do in the wild, that includes cool temperatures.
I'm not sure how many time I have to say it, I am not for providing gradients through what would naturally be winter months.
My U. sikorae will be in my garage when it's old enough, the temps will easily fall to 10c inside there which is natural for their habitat. They won't be getting a ceramic unless it falls to a dangerous level but I'm sure you're not against me killing my animal :lol2:


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Chris18 said:


> Both the fox situations are unnatural, temps of 30c is not for Cresteds at the height of summer.
> I'm not saying anyone should do anything that is naturally beyond what is possible in their natural environments.
> I would 100% be happy keeping it outside as long as it has the proper means to thermoregulate like they do in the wild, that includes cool temperatures.
> I'm not sure how many time I have to say it, I am not for providing gradients through what would naturally be winter months.
> My U. sikorae will be in my garage when it's old enough, the temps will easily fall to 10c inside there which is natural for their habitat. They won't be getting a ceramic unless it falls to a dangerous level but I'm sure you're not against me killing my animal :lol2:


Haha....

Exactly - you plan to keep the sikorae at a natural temp.

Bingo.

No temp gradient.

Anyway - we can all agree to disagree. I'm happy, you're happy.
My geckos aren't dying, neither are yours. All good.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Big Red One said:


> Haha....
> 
> Exactly - you plan to keep the sikorae at a natural temp.
> 
> ...


Oh but I do plan on providing them with a thermal gradient... Just not in the winter where temperature variations are little/none.

They live on bare tree trunks in a tropical environment so Ofcourse they will encounter heat fluctuations and gradients.

Saying that though its tank will certainly contain areas of less lower temperatures just to be on the safe side. Then he can choose between natural temperatures and there's no risk of me cooking him. Even if my gradient is something like 14-20 it's better than nothing IMO.

You could of quit this debate at any time, I'm not forcing you to discuss anything.

Our reptiles are both surviving but it's a question of who's are more likely to thrive 
Edit: that last bit sounded like I thought I was better than you, Ofcourse I don't think that's the case just that we have different views so one of us is providing better care although both of us could be providing environments where neither thrives lol.


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## blabble182 (Dec 26, 2010)

> I don't know where they live naturally but even if it's leaf litter a thermal gradient still exists, dig deeper during the day it'll be cooler and at night hotter than air temperature and the leaf litter above it. ??Leaf litter? So that's magically several degrees warmer ?


well actually yes, in my line of work i have frequently layed for hours out in forests of europe doing training of various sorts...and lying under leaf litter is a hell of alot warmer than lying on top of it, similar to that of a snow hole, much warmer inside than on top! : victory: 

just thought id throw that one out there because i dont believe in magic. :whistling2:


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

blabble182 said:


> well actually yes, in my line of work i have frequently layed for hours out in forests of europe doing training of various sorts...and lying under leaf litter is a hell of alot warmer than lying on top of it, similar to that of a snow hole, much warmer inside than on top! : victory:
> 
> just thought id throw that one out there because i dont believe in magic. :whistling2:


Wow, I too am aware that leaf litter is warmer - IF you dig down deep enough!

If you can prove to me that gonis do this then I'll doff the old cap.......I've certainly never noted burrowing behaviour from any of mine and they have orchid bark/Eco earth and sphagnum moss substrate. They actually are normally found off the floor clinging to cork bark during the day. Seems like they may not be so cold that they need to dig......


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Chris18 said:


> I agree with BRO. I offer my cresteds natural levels of temperatures, some are seen as 'extreme' but they're naturally evolved to deal with it and during times of high heat they have options to get away from it.
> 
> I'm not sure how you can say goniurosaurus don't need heat gradients though, doesn't the genus cover a huge range of species, some coming from areas with seasons of pretty high heat?
> Like you said, replicate the seasons and when it's natural to have gradients such as day time, summer etc.
> ...



(edit) Just seen that the leaf litter thing was covered already...I'll leave this though..)


Just a note on what Chris said there about the leaf litter. Go put you hand in leaf litter on the floor of a temperate forest. There are pretty varied temp under there.

leaf litter rots, and when it does it creates heat. So a spot that has not been disturbed for a day or so would in fact be generating its own heat. I'm not talking 30C difference to ambient temps, but there will be a difference in temps and it will be warmer.

Animal dung piles would also be a heat source. As they rot down they can get really hot in there and have their own little micro environment going on around them.

Compost heaps can be downright dangerous if left unturned for a long time. I've actually seen someone with burns up to their shins from accidently stepping into a stable dung/hay composting heap. 

Now look at some bird species that use leaf litter as nesting sites, bird of paradise is one, crocodiles do it also.

So although the ambient temps might be lower and there may be no direct sun heating going on, there will be temp variations and warm area's for thermo purposes.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

nicnet said:


> (edit) Just seen that the leaf litter thing was covered already...I'll leave this though..)
> 
> 
> Just a note on what Chris said there about the leaf litter. Go put you hand in leaf litter on the floor of a temperate forest. There are pretty varied temp under there.
> ...


Someone who finally gets what I'm trying to say.
When we think of thermal gradients we automatically think of basking behaviour but nocturnal animals don't utilise this because they would get eaten.
There are many ways to access thermal gradients without advertising your where abouts to the world.

Bro, you mentioned your gonis tend to sleep on cork bark but yet you seem to think they sleep under rocks in the wild? Surely they'd sleep in a terrestrial manner in captivity too if that's the case.
It's possible that they don't live in leaf litter but they could take shelter in fallen hollow trees, thermal gradients even occur there, gaps in the tree let in heat which passes through the 'tube', the deeper they go the more stable temps will be.

I think there are very few places on the earth that lack some form of thermal gradient in summer, some are less obvious than others.
What makes you think gonis don't take advantage of them?


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Chris18 said:


> Someone who finally gets what I'm trying to say.
> When we think of thermal gradients we automatically think of basking behaviour but nocturnal animals don't utilise this because they would get eaten.
> There are many ways to access thermal gradients without advertising your where abouts to the world.
> 
> ...


Seriously.

I give up.........


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Big Red One said:


> Wow, I too am aware that leaf litter is warmer - IF you dig down deep enough!
> 
> If you can prove to me that gonis do this then I'll doff the old cap.......I've certainly never noted burrowing behaviour from any of mine and they have orchid bark/Eco earth and sphagnum moss substrate. They actually are normally found off the floor clinging to cork bark during the day. Seems like they may not be so cold that they need to dig......



Ermmmm. Not to try throw a spanner in this convo but...

I can see what BRO is saying, that Gonis are not known to dig and so would not be taking advantage of the leaf litter heat source (or not proven to anyhow) so could possibly rule that one out as their thermo source,

again...but.

Trees have thermo spots also.

Bree bark is in essence an insulation layer on a tree, and a crack in that bark could possibly provide not only a hiding place, but also an area that would be slightly warmer than the surrounding ambient temps.

If your outside on a freezing night with no other source of warmth, then the warmest place you can be is next to a tree. It provides shelter from a breeze on the lee side, which cuts out your wind chill factor. It also provides direct heat as they are warmer than the surrounding ambient temps also. Again this is not huge degrees of warmth, but possibly a couple of degrees or more (I have no numbers and never really looked into this)

Survival techniques would dictate to get near a tree and cover in leaf litter for warmth. The tree trunk itself provides some of that warmth.

So although its only a slight variation, it may be worth someone looking into the microclimate temp ranges on a tree trunk to help with possible heating idea's.


Just a quick wiki on this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermogenic_plants



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symplocarpus_foetidus
Skunk cabbage is notable for its ability to generate temperatures of up to *15-35°C* above air temperature by cyanide resistant cellular respiration in order to melt its way through frozen ground,[2] placing it among a small group of plants exhibiting thermogenesis. Even though it flowers while there is still snow and ice on the ground it is successfully pollinated by early insects that also emerge at this time. Some studies suggest that beyond allowing the plant to grow in icy soil, the heat it produces may help to spread its odor in the air.[2] Carrion-feeding insects that are attracted by the scent may be doubly encouraged to enter the spathe because it is warmer than the surrounding air, fueling pollination.[3]


edit

Further to that trees also cool the air at the top of the canopy, by evaporation of water on the leaf surface, basically tree respiration.

So from bottom to top the entire tree would be one big thermogradient, even by a few degrees.


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## Bio (Oct 12, 2012)

From a simply physiological point of view it can be said that due to the reptile metabolism, enzymes within reptiles work at a larger range of temperatures compared to mammals. Therefore it is very likely that a crested gecko is capable of normal enzymatic activity over a large range of temperatures even if no temperature gradient is provided.

In nature however all animals, will experience different abiotic conditions and actively move to temperatures more ideal (for enzymatic activity). Having no variance in temperature in captivity therefore would be unnatural, but so are many other things we expose your reptiles to. 
The enzymes in our reptiles can most likely cope with no gradient if it is in a certain rage it would be exposed to in the wild. But as in nature temperature variance is a very important factor for any living being, I support a temperature gradient in captivity.


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Bio said:


> From a simply physiological point of view it can be said that due to the reptile metabolism, enzymes within reptiles work at a larger range of temperatures compared to mammals. Therefore it is very likely that a crested gecko is capable of normal enzymatic activity over a large range of temperatures even if no temperature gradient is provided.
> 
> In nature however all animals, will experience different abiotic conditions and actively move to temperatures more ideal (for enzymatic activity). Having no variance in temperature in captivity therefore would be unnatural, but so are many other things we expose your reptiles to.
> The enzymes in our reptiles can most likely cope with no gradient if it is in a certain rage it would be exposed to in the wild. But as in nature temperature variance is a very important factor for any living being, I support a temperature gradient in captivity.




Ok lets go on the theory that every lizard would have a way of finding a suitable temperature gradient in its natural environment, rather than a suitable 'set' temperature in an area.

Each specific species would then have its own perfect environmental conditions (which I again think we would all agree on)

Now lets say that lizard x lives purely on tree y. We would then need to find out the exact temp gradient between the ground and the tree canopy of that specific species of tree and not just the trees in the area. As it seems that different species of tree would have different 'core temps' as well.


So we have now established that we now know the exact environment and temp gradient that the lizzy needs. The question would then be, Is the temp gradient in its natural habitat significant enough for us to have to try replicate it or is the gradient so gradual that it would be impractical to even try.

IE. Beardies have a fairly steep gradient and its fairly easy to mimic that temp range. (No I won't go into beardie temps etc..)

So if you have a gecko that has a temp range in the wild from the top of the tree to the bottom of the tree that only varies for eg 10C is it then practicle to try replicate an entire trees microsystem in a viv. I fairly doubt it. 

By trying to do so you're possibly putting it into a situation where its core body temp would change too much simply by moving over 2 inches as in the wild that change would be much more gradual over say 10Ft.

So I'm not saying that I agree / disagree on the heating issue, but I think that if the exact environment is not known then you need to be very careful on that gradient.


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## Bio (Oct 12, 2012)

nicnet said:


> Ok lets go on the theory that every lizard would have a way of finding a suitable temperature gradient in its natural environment, rather than a suitable 'set' temperature in an area.
> 
> Each specific species would then have its own perfect environmental conditions (which I again think we would all agree on)
> 
> ...


A agree with you, if the species you keep requires a very small temp. gradient then it is likley that non what so ever is needed in captivity. I am no specilist on any species that needs a relatively small gradient. All i was trying to say that for enzymatic activity will most likely be sufficient even at a constant temperature. 

Offering a small gradient in my personal opinion would simply enable the animal to thermoregulate to a degree (even if not needed).

It is a topic to argue about, but in the end it should be kept in mind as long as the animal eats, poops and sheds well it most likely feels comfortable in its environment, which is what we all aim for.


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## penda (Jul 22, 2009)

Chris18 said:


> Both the fox situations are unnatural, temps of 30c is not for Cresteds at the height of summer.
> I'm not saying anyone should do anything that is naturally beyond what is possible in their natural environments.
> I would 100% be happy keeping it outside as long as it has the proper means to thermoregulate like they do in the wild, that includes cool temperatures.
> I'm not sure how many time I have to say it, I am not for providing gradients through what would naturally be winter months.
> My U. sikorae will be in my garage when it's old enough, the temps will easily fall to 10c inside there which is natural for their habitat. They won't be getting a ceramic unless it falls to a dangerous level but I'm sure you're not against me killing my animal :lol2:



so in my instance where i live in a house that naturally sits around 28 on summer days and then is at around 20-23 each winter day (i keep mine at the room temp) to offer them this yearly varience to simulate how the temp changes to them in the wild, is this wrong? because personally i agree with red that everyone is going to have a different opinion , i would certainly say my dont simply survive , mine do very well and i have had many lovely babies this year(cresties) but then someone else might take the opposite view , the point i think red was trying to get across is there is TOO MUCH VARIANCE between different people situations and natural environment.
before i got big into my geckos i had one of the largest collections of stick insects in the uk(around 60 species) i was very successful ask anyone that had seen my collection , i ahd kept some of the hardest species and succeeded BUT there is an "easy" species called a.asperimus i tried on several occasions to rear this species in a previous house and failed everytime following advice from some of the biggest phasmid keepers in the game , i moved house and tried again , did nothing different to what i tried at the other but succeeded straight away , i found the natural humidity level in the new place suited them far better that any humidity change i could SIMULATE , which is my point its simulation , changing things finding WHAT WORKS FOR YOU and YOUR NATURAL ENVIRONMENT , there are ofcourse many wrong ways to keep reptilese , but what red is trying to say is there are also many right ways????


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

penda said:


> so in my instance where i live in a house that naturally sits around 28 on summer days and then is at around 20-23 each winter day (i keep mine at the room temp) to offer them this yearly varience to simulate how the temp changes to them in the wild, is this wrong? because personally i agree with red that everyone is going to have a different opinion , i would certainly say my dont simply survive , mine do very well and i have had many lovely babies this year(cresties) but then someone else might take the opposite view , the point i think red was trying to get across is there is TOO MUCH VARIANCE between different people situations and natural environment.
> before i got big into my geckos i had one of the largest collections of stick insects in the uk(around 60 species) i was very successful ask anyone that had seen my collection , i ahd kept some of the hardest species and succeeded BUT there is an "easy" species called a.asperimus i tried on several occasions to rear this species in a previous house and failed everytime following advice from some of the biggest phasmid keepers in the game , i moved house and tried again , did nothing different to what i tried at the other but succeeded straight away , i found the natural humidity level in the new place suited them far better that any humidity change i could SIMULATE , which is my point its simulation , changing things finding WHAT WORKS FOR YOU and YOUR NATURAL ENVIRONMENT , there are ofcourse many wrong ways to keep reptilese , but what red is trying to say is there are also many right ways????



Going on the stick insect scenario you had there. Even a minor change made a huge difference. Question again would then be with lizzies is do we know enough about their natural environment to fully mimic 'ideal' conditions.

There is also another thing to consider here.

Selection.

In commonly captive bred species, the chances are that any animals that were not suited to adapt to the captive temps provided would not have survived initial import, meaning that the ones being bred now 10 or so generations down the line are more than likely already adapted to the temps offered. I'm talking leo's, cresties etc that have been CB for many generations. Have they adapted to the point where altering their heating methods could in fact be doing them more harm than good or would they naturally revert to wild habits....I have no idea.

However, if you're looking at a species that is not commonly bred or is still wild caught then very minor changes could make a huge difference.

If you look back at my previous post about theory of microclimate on a single tree, then could it be possible that a single degree of temp could make a major difference. If their gradient is that shallow they could possible be adapted to regulate in an extreamly limited range. 

Where are beardies range from 60 - 120 ish (purely for argument sake, not going into specifics here) then we know that they are on a very steep temp range. But, if you have a species that purely lives in trees in a specific area that temp range could go up in 0.5C jump and not 10C jumps as with beardies.

So do we totally micromanage microclimates, or flip the coin and try get the species to adapt to a more varied temp range in captivity. Do ethics and morals come into play on that one?

I don't keep gecks as anyone who knows me will attest to, in fact I couldn't even tell you how to set up a viv for a leo..(sad right lol) so I'm just throwing some thermoregulation idea's around here.


.


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