# Freezing as Euthanasia?



## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

What do you think people?


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

Well what are the options, I guess... Freeze it, drown it, drop a book on it?
The former is nicer for me, the latter done properly better for the invert...


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

forever_20one said:


> Well what are the options, I guess... Freeze it, drown it, drop a book on it?
> The former is nicer for me, the latter done properly better for the invert...


I just couldn't squash one


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## Danhalen (Jun 6, 2008)

bobby said:


> I just couldn't squash one


You should try it with an adult female P. metallica - Now that's a kick in the teeth


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

personally I don't like it, I haven't seen any exact studies of freezing tarantulas so I wouldn't want to speculate. All I know is being freezing cold is very painful for us, obviously we are more advanced, but we sure as hell don't loose consciousness quickly in the cold.

If I had to do it I'd have to go down the annihilating it's head route, well it's whole body. If one of my T's was crippled in a moult and still moving, or had bad dyskinetic syndrome, I'd take it outside onto the concrete, get a large brick, place it over it then slam it down, crush it with my foot and grind it side to side very quickly. 

I'd rather be certain it's death is near instant, then the possibility it is in severe pain for at least several minutes, if not more considering they have a slower metabolism.


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

Danhalen said:


> You should try it with an adult female P. metallica - Now that's a kick in the teeth


I just couldn't, selfish maybe?

dyskinetic syndrome?


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

bobby said:


> I just couldn't, selfish maybe?
> 
> dyskinetic syndrome?


lose of proper motor control, it's cause isn't really known, some think it can be from bad livefood, many a parasite transferred. Others think it's the effect of cerain aerosols even in tiny amounts.

Here's a few videos

Looks like a GBB here with a bad case: YouTube - Dyskinetisches Syndrom

A mild case here, it generally gets worse: YouTube - Dyskinetic Syndrome in Tarantulas.

the end of the line for this poor Pokie: YouTube - Sick Regalis


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

joeyboy said:


> lose of proper motor control, it's cause isn't really known, some think it can be from bad livefood, many a parasite transferred. Others think it's the effect of cerain aerosols even in tiny amounts.
> 
> Here's a few videos
> 
> ...


I have heard of it and have a rough idea of the symptoms, wish we knew more 

Was really asking if thats what killed the Pokie :blush:

Appreciate the info, wish there was a proper study


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

bobby said:


> I have heard of it and have a rough idea of the symptoms, wish we knew more
> 
> Was really asking if thats what killed the Pokie :blush:
> 
> Appreciate the info, wish there was a proper study


oh right sorry, I THINK it was, I remembered Dan discussing it, think he thought it was from a batch of bad crickets.


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## bobby (Sep 26, 2006)

joeyboy said:


> oh right sorry, I THINK it was, I remembered Dan discussing it, think he thought it was from a batch of bad crickets.


Pesticides?

Horrible


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## perthchickie (Mar 15, 2008)

I just couldn't put one in the freezer, I would feel incredibly cruel.

Even though I really don't like the thought of doing it, I would have to go for the heavy book option. Quick to put it out of its misery.


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

In the fridge to start so it gradually cools and goes into a hibernated state which would occur in the desert in winter when icy colds night come about. Then into the freezer as it would not be in a conscious state as such. Killing and humane to me is a joke tbh as there is no such thing. It's either horrible death one way or another. Drowning tarantula in alchohol solution, freezing makes no difference the outcome is the same.


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## 5thPhantom (Feb 8, 2010)

spider_mad said:


> In the fridge to start so it gradually cools and goes into a hibernated state which would occur in the desert in winter when icy colds night come about. Then into the freezer as it would not be in a conscious state as such. *Killing and humane to me is a joke tbh as there is no such thing.* It's either horrible death one way or another. Drowning tarantula in alchohol solution, freezing makes no difference the outcome is the same.


I disagree - death is not a nice thing, but there are varying ways of achieving it which cause less suffering than others, which I would call more humane than others. The idea of being humane is simply to make the death as quick and painless as possible, although obviously this is hard to judge as we don't personally know how spiders feel about what pain they may experience when we are trying to do the best thing for them.

Personally I would chose fridge then freezer. I couldn't bring myself to squash one of my beloved pets, and I would worry about any pain they would feel if the first blow didn't kill them outright. :gasp:


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## x Sarah x (Nov 16, 2007)

Freezer for me. and have done it several times.

The reason freezing is painful for us is because our blood begins to freeze before anything else, imagine icicles being pumped round your arteries, ow much?

Tarantulas don't have arteries, and we all know inverts also don't have the same pain thresh hold as humans and other mammals.
I mean come on, a spider gets an infection in its leg, what does it do? its chews it off or just drops it (his gonna grow one back anyway right).

A human couldn't do that, it would be too painful and do more harm than good.

A spider doesn't sulk and roll around on the floor crying when something like that happens...hell they don't even lose their appetite!


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## 5thPhantom (Feb 8, 2010)

x Sarah x said:


> I mean come on, a spider gets an infection in its leg, what does it do? its chews it off or just drops it (his gonna grow one back anyway right).


Love it!!! :2thumb:

(Where in Stoke are you, btw?!  )


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

I would freezer an invert if i felt it needed to be euthanased.


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## x Sarah x (Nov 16, 2007)

5thPhantom said:


> Love it!!! :2thumb:
> 
> (Where in Stoke are you, btw?!  )


Meir : victory:


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

spider_mad said:


> Killing and humane to me is a joke tbh as there is no such thing


What _are_ you on about? :? Humane deaths are one in which no/minimal suffering occurs, by the definition of "humane". Dying is _not_ inherently painful or "horrible" act as you put it. There are plenty of humane ways to die. This is a load of rubbish. 



x Sarah x said:


> Tarantulas don't have arteries, and we all know inverts also don't have the same pain thresh hold as humans and other mammals.
> I mean come on, a spider gets an infection in its leg, what does it do? its chews it off or just drops it (his gonna grow one back anyway right).


Fraid not, studies on inverts (particularly hermit crabs) have shown they do indeed feel pain, in much more than just a "let's avoid that stimulus again" sort of way. In a real, physiological and pyschological way. 

Freezing is inhumane as a method of euthanasia for all inverts and vertebrates. 

Here is a table of accepted humane methods. Inverts are most likely to be akin to the Fish and Reptiles section. 

Agents and Methods of Euthanasia by Species


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

AshMashMash said:


> What _are_ you on about? :? Humane deaths are one in which no/minimal suffering occurs, by the definition of "humane". Dying is _not_ inherently painful or "horrible" act as you put it. There are plenty of humane ways to die. This is a load of rubbish.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you cite these please? I'm quite interested. The evidence _against_ pain recognition in arthropods other than some of the advanced crustacea was quite compelling, much as I wanted it not to be...and logically I can think of more reasons why it's a disadvantage for a spider to experience sensitive pain recognition than not. 

Considering the fridge will kill many tropical species anyway (especially non tarantula arachnids), I see no point in going Fridge>Freezer. Thankfully I've never had to euthanise a spider, although depending on the species I'd use the freezer or fridge method.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

GRB said:


> Can you cite these please? I'm quite interested. The evidence _against_ pain recognition in arthropods other than some of the advanced crustacea was quite compelling, much as I wanted it not to be...and logically I can think of more reasons why it's a disadvantage for a spider to experience sensitive pain recognition than not.
> 
> Considering the fridge will kill many tropical species anyway (especially non tarantula arachnids), I see no point in going Fridge>Freezer. Thankfully I've never had to euthanise a spider, although depending on the species I'd use the freezer or fridge method.


Indeedies. I have a quick look on PubMed for the actual link... but as it's a Belfast study, I don't think it appears on there? I couldn't immediately see it anywho's. 

Here's a lamens link. Crabs Not Only Suffer Pain, But Retain Memory Of It

Edit: wait that's not about freezing....


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

AshMashMash said:


> Here is a table of accepted humane methods. Inverts are most likely to be akin to the Fish and Reptiles section.
> 
> Agents and Methods of Euthanasia by Species


Interesting it says decapitation as a 'conditionally' acceptable way as killing reptiles? As I was under the impression that this was quite horrific? Inverts wont always die by decapitation,depending on the species?

How are you supposed to feed or administer barbs to inverts?

I dont really think that table is of much use to your average hobbiest?

I dont have a clue about what could be considered humane for inverts. I supose it is complete and instant destruction, but jeez, what a mess


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Crownan said:


> Interesting it says decapitation as a 'conditionally' acceptable way as killing reptiles? As I was under the impression that this was quite horrific? Inverts wont always die by decapitation,depending on the species?


Conditionally... probably meaning, in the same way as pithing, if it's done under anaesthesia. 



Crownan said:


> How are you supposed to feed or administer barbs to inverts?














Crownan said:


> I dont really think that table is of much use to your average hobbiest?


Take it to a vet that know's what they're doing then! Just 'cos they're inverts doesn't mean they don't deserve the same treatment :?



Crownan said:


> I dont have a clue about what could be considered humane for inverts. I supose it is complete and instant destruction, but jeez, what a mess


I dunno, as you say, that table doesn't specifically mention inverts. I'd be interested to know if MS222 works as well for inverts as fish... as that's basically Clove oil you can buy at a chemist. I've used it for fish and it's very humane.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Cheers, I'll have a look at that later. 

The only concern I'd have with freezing would be doing it too slowly. If the animal was frozen sufficiently slowly enough that the extremites would freeze before killing the animal then I could foresee suffering and leg shedding etc. Quick freezing would kill the animal and also stop pain signals being sent in the first place (Na + Ca channels basically shut down in most things below a certain temperature) from regions frozen. Given that spiders have a pretty diffuse nerve net and very few innervated external surfaces (Foelix 1996) I'd imagine suffering is minimal even if thrown straight into the freezer. 

Ideally, I'd just use liquid nitrogen like many researchers use - it's instant.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

AshMashMash said:


> Take it to a vet that know's what they're doing then! Just 'cos they're inverts doesn't mean they don't deserve the same treatment :?


Thanks for the reply ash, very informative, but would you really take a 3 inch mantis to vet?


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Crownan said:


> Interesting it says decapitation as a 'conditionally' acceptable way as killing reptiles? As I was under the impression that this was quite horrific? Inverts wont always die by decapitation,depending on the species?
> 
> How are you supposed to feed or administer barbs to inverts?
> 
> ...


Severing the vertebral column for any vertebrate is about the quickest way to kill them other than destroying the brain or causing the heart to stop. Vertebrates are actually quite hard to kill humanely since most actions with them involve emotional distress as well as physical damage. 

Freezing is humane for inverts provided it is done quickly. There's too much pseudoscience being posted here based on what we feel, and that's simply not the case for animals so fundamentally different to ourselves.


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## Harbinger (Dec 20, 2008)

I would think instant splat if better than slowly freezing to death.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

GRB said:


> Cheers, I'll have a look at that later.
> 
> The only concern I'd have with freezing would be doing it too slowly. If the animal was frozen sufficiently slowly enough that the extremites would freeze before killing the animal then I could foresee suffering and leg shedding etc. Quick freezing would kill the animal and also stop pain signals being sent in the first place (Na + Ca channels basically shut down in most things below a certain temperature) from regions frozen. Given that spiders have a pretty diffuse nerve net and very few innervated external surfaces (Foelix 1996) I'd imagine suffering is minimal even if thrown straight into the freezer.
> 
> Ideally, I'd just use liquid nitrogen like many researchers use - it's instant.


I understand all the reasoning behind why freezing "should" be humane. I am not purely saying we should do it for anthropomorphistic reasons, but because it is indeed thought to be inhumane even in inverts. 

We used to freeze reptiles for the very same reasons you've just quoted: the fact that they are exothermic and that neuronal impulses slow and eventually stop before they die. However we have found this _isn't_ true and this is why we don't advocate that as a method of euthanasia anymore. 

If we're showing that inverts do properly feel pain, which isn't disputed, why should they be any different? At the very least it shouldn't be used until proved it _is_ humane, surely?



Crownan said:


> Thanks for the reply ash, very informative, but would you really take a 3 inch mantis to vet?


As with GRB:



GRB said:


> Severing the vertebral column for any vertebrate is about the quickest way to kill them other than destroying the brain or causing the heart to stop.


Can't say I disagree with that. Similar for inverts, something quick... 



GRB said:


> Freezing is humane for inverts provided it is done quickly. There's too much pseudoscience being posted here based on what we feel, and that's simply not the case for animals so fundamentally different to ourselves.


I didn't post anything about "what I feel", if that's aimed at me!

EDIT: Haha, I knew I should have stayed in Off Topic where I belong! First time out of there for months! LOL.


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## pirez (May 3, 2009)

I think the fastest way to put a T out of its misery would be a hammer straight to the carapace, it would also crush me to do it but would be the best option in some cases!


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

I would go for the instant death by heavy book too. I just don't like the idea of something slowly freezing to death. Whether inverts feel pain or not, it certainly doesn't sound like a quick way to die, not at the temperatures you find in your average home freezer. If I had access to liquid nitrogen then yes, but the only benefit of putting a T in the freezer for me is not its humane death (since that is not proven) but that you would get to keep the complete exoskeleton afterwards.


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