# For Future Reference (Leo's) Question



## Demon9374 (Apr 22, 2009)

Eclipse Reverse Striped.









Hypo Enigma.









Nova.









Hyper Aberrant.









Mack Snow.









Right, trying to keep this all in one thread, so I know intime for next year, what all my possible outcomes will be & how much as a rough guide, each hatchling morph is worth, rather than worry about this stuff later after they've hatched, provided I'm successful. Whether they have hets, is unknown to me atm. The Male is the Nova, the rest are Females. 

For example:

[1C]Talbino eclipse enigma patternless reverse striped X Eclipse reverse striped = .

Eclipse normal HET Talbino. *£??*
Eclipse aberrant HET Talbino. *£??* etc..
Eclipse hyper aberrant HET Talbino.
Eclipse striped HET Talbino.
Eclipse reverse striped HET Talbino.
Eclipse patternless reverse striped HET Talbino.
[1C]Eclipse enigma HET Talbino.
[1C]Eclipse enigma aberrant HET Talbino.
[1C]Eclipse enigma hyper aberrant HET Talbino.
[1C]Eclipse enigma striped HET Talbino.
[1C]Eclipse enigma reverse striped HET Talbino.
[1C]Eclipse enigma patternless reverse striped HET Talbino. 

__

Any input greatly appreciated. : victory:


----------



## excession (Apr 11, 2009)

Lets see more pics of your nova


----------



## Demon9374 (Apr 22, 2009)

excession said:


> Lets see more pics of your nova


Few more pics in this thread.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/genetics/416908-leo-morph-these.html

: victory:


----------



## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Demon9374 said:


> Hyper aberrant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Talbino* hyper aberrant-AKA-*Talbino* jungle.


----------



## excession (Apr 11, 2009)

OK skimmed other thread...

You got a Nova for £30.

Sooo lucky!!!


----------



## Demon9374 (Apr 22, 2009)

gazz said:


> *Talbino* hyper aberrant-AKA-*Talbino* jungle.


Cool beans.

The Hyper part, on this Leo Calc, it doesn't have Jungle, or Aberrant, or Hyper, it has Hypo [1C] & [2C], which I'm guessing isn't the correct option for Hyper?

You happen to know all the outcomes I'll get from the females bred with the Nova Male Gazz? The Leo Calc I use, I don't understand some of the stuff on it to put my Leo's in to get correct results. Any estimates on how much each hatchling would be worth, would be good too if you could. :flrt:
Just want to have all this sorted now, rather than later to put my mind at rest. As I also would like to know what I would be keeping back should I be successful, for future breeding projects in the years to follow.

:notworthy:


Edit:

Also, let's see if I have this right.. Not taking into account any unknown hets. Nova x Mack Snow =

Normal Het Talbino, Eclipse
Enigma Het Talbino, Eclipse
Mack Snow Het Talbino, Eclipse
Mack Snow Enigma Het Talbino, Eclipse

Now, breeding back one of the female hatchlings in 2011 with the Nova, (Nova x Mack Snow Het Talbino, Eclipse) would result in:

6.25% Normal HET Tremper Albino, Eclipse
6.25% Eclipse HET Tremper Albino
6.25% Tremper Albino HET Eclipse
6.25% RAPTOR
6.25% Enigma HET Tremper Albino, Eclipse
6.25% BEE HET Tremper Albino
6.25% Enigma Tremper Albino HET Eclipse
6.25% Nova
6.25% Mack Snow HET Tremper Albino, Eclipse
6.25% Mack Snow Eclipse HET Tremper Albino
6.25% Mack Snow Albino (Tremper) HET Eclipse
6.25% Mack Snow Tremper Albino Eclipse
6.25% Mack Snow Enigma HET Tremper Albino, Eclipse
6.25% Black Hole HET Tremper Albino
6.25% Mack Snow Enigma Tremper Albino HET Eclipse
6.25% Dreamsickle

And Nova x Mack Snow Enigma[1C] Het Talbino, Eclipse would result in:

3.125% Normal HET Tremper Albino, Eclipse
3.125% Eclipse HET Tremper Albino
3.125% Tremper Albino HET Eclipse
3.125% RAPTOR
9.375% Enigma HET Tremper Albino, Eclipse
9.375% BEE HET Tremper Albino
9.375% Enigma Tremper Albino HET Eclipse
9.375% Nova
3.125% Mack Snow HET Tremper Albino, Eclipse
3.125% Mack Snow Eclipse HET Tremper Albino
3.125% Mack Snow Albino (Tremper) HET Eclipse
3.125% Mack Snow Tremper Albino Eclipse
9.375% Mack Snow Enigma HET Tremper Albino, Eclipse
9.375% Black Hole HET Tremper Albino
9.375% Mack Snow Enigma Tremper Albino HET Eclipse
9.375% Dreamsickle

Question now would be, the hatchling kept back (Mack Snow Enigma Het Talbino, Eclipse) would it be [1C] or [2C] Enigma? As [2C] Would throw:

12.5% Enigma HET Tremper Albino, Eclipse
12.5% BEE HET Tremper Albino
12.5% Enigma Tremper Albino HET Eclipse
12.5% Nova
12.5% Mack Snow Enigma HET Tremper Albino, Eclipse
12.5% Black Hole HET Tremper Albino
12.5% Mack Snow Enigma Tremper Albino HET Eclipse
12.5% Dreamsickle


----------



## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Demon9374 said:


> Cool beans.
> 
> The Hyper part, on this Leo Calc, it doesn't have Jungle, or Aberrant, or Hyper, it has Hypo [1C] & [2C], which I'm guessing isn't the correct option for Hyper?


.


*Hypo* is short for Hypomelanistic(Is expressing *less* of).
*hyper* is short for Hypermelanistic(Is expressing *more* of).

You could just say Jungle as that what it's more known as.

Aberrant body + Normal tail = Aberrant leo.
Normal body + Aberrant tail = Aberrant leo.
Aberrant body + Aberrant tail = Hyper aberrant-AKA-Jungle. 

There are NO! polygenic traits on the calc as they can not be prodicted that included the Aberrant trait that result in the Jungle,Striped,Reverse striped.


----------



## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Demon9374 said:


> Also, let's see if I have this right.. Not taking into account any unknown hets. Nova x Mack Snow =
> 
> Normal Het Talbino, Eclipse
> Enigma Het Talbino, Eclipse
> ...


It's basically right but you will get body patterns from Banded,Aberrant,Hyper aberrant(Jungle),Striped,Reverse striped,Patternless reverse striped.
But yes it's right for all the Recessive,Codominant,Dominant trait that can be prodicted.


----------



## Demon9374 (Apr 22, 2009)

Cool beans, thanks for the info, I think someone said about that pologenic on my other thread, I didn't get it then, but I get it now! Haha, cheers! :notworthy:

Think I shall keep back a Mack Snow Het Talbino, Eclipse hatchling should there be any from any clutches, should think that I'd get atleast 1, as I've 2 Mack Snows, who knows, might get a nice surprise and they might already be Het for that & I could have some Dreamsicles, Nova's or Black Holes, I shall keep them fingers crossed!:lol2:


----------



## Demon9374 (Apr 22, 2009)

Looking at the projects I want to go for, could anyone tell me a rough price each of these morphs go for as hatchlings atm?



RAPTOR
 BEE HET Tremper Albino
 Nova
Black Hole HET Tremper Albino
Dreamsickle
Cheers.: victory:


----------



## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Demon9374 said:


> Looking at the projects I want to go for, could anyone tell me a rough price each of these morphs go for as hatchlings atm?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


TBh it all depends on the quality, also I haven't seen a couple for sale in the UK. anyway, here is my guess....

RAPTOR - £80 - £150
BEE het T_Albino - £80 - £150
Nova - £100 - £200
Black hole het T_albino - £100 - £200
Dreamsickle - £150 - £300


----------



## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

MrMike said:


> TBh it all depends on the quality, also I haven't seen a couple for sale in the UK. anyway, here is my guess....
> 
> RAPTOR - £80 - £150
> BEE het T_Albino - £80 - £150
> ...


with the way things are going i think you could probably halve those figures for next yr.


----------



## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Slurm said:


> with the way things are going i think you could probably halve those figures for next yr.


I was being optimistic. They really shouldn't, especially for Dreamsickles and black holes.


----------



## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

well i'll hopefully have all of them next yr, so im kinda betting as i know others also breeding them they will possibly be cheap...


----------



## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Slurm said:


> well i'll hopefully have all of them next yr, so im kinda betting as i know others also breeding them they will possibly be cheap...


Ahh, well I'm not breeding any of those, so not really watching the prices on them. It is a shame when triple gene (Nova) and Quad gene (dreamsickles) go for a small amount becuase everyone is undercutting.


----------



## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

yeah, but it seems in mainland europe prices are dropping fast already, ive seen novas going for 80eu, granted youve still gotta get them to your door.

black holes and super novas are what im really hoping for....


----------



## Demon9374 (Apr 22, 2009)

Cheers for the prices Mike.:flrt:

I'm only after rough prices anyways, I do expect them to be lower as time moves on, which is a shame as Mike said about the Triple & Quad gene & undercutting.

Hopefully I will be working towards Super Nova's which had me thinking, how come they gave it a name when on Geckowiki it says one hasn't be produced? Or is it just a case of the site being outdated or something? As I can't find a picture, I guess I'm going to have to pay attention to the parents/ancestory of how the "Super Nova" will come to be, if it does come to be in my breeding projects.:whistling2:

I'm just hoping the Macks are het for Talbino & Eclipse already then I could be looking at those Morphs above in 2010. But I won't hold my breath & so i'll probably looking 2011 for those, then 2012/13 for Super Nova's. Ofc if everything went to plan.. :whistling2:


----------



## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

Mate, it doesn`t matter how much any of the morphs are worth - if you don`t start asking some more important questions like `how do I spot a problematic Enigma hatchling` or `what do I even DO with a problematic Enigma hatchling` (esp considering at least HALF of your young are probably going to be Enigmas next year) then every single penny you hope to make, and possibly more, could very well be swamped up in vets bills, rehoming fees or courier fees for ppl who are willing to take any issue ones on as pets. If the situation arises that you hatch out a fair number of unsellable, maybe unrehomable enigmas, have you considered what you are going to do with them - in that are you keeping them on as pets, giving them away, having them put to sleep, having them seen by vet or are you going to sell them on as the morph they hatch regardless (which, if you don`t know what to look out for by then would be plausible)??? 

In no way, shape or form am I trying to dampen your enthusiasm for wanting to breed exciting, fresh leopard gecko morphs - but considering these are your first leos, then what`s the rush.....why don`t you just breed a couple? After all, a few week ago, I`m pretty sure you said that you didn`t even particularly like leos! In all honesty, has the enthusiasm come from working out all the potential combos, or all the potential price tags?! Personally, and yup - looks like it could well be just my opinion - you need to take a breath about it all, especially as you admit that you aren`t even sure if your primary breeder - the Nova you`ve just bought - is displaying any issues or not, as you simply don`t know what to look for (your own words)! That really is a scary, worrying statement to make - yet all the plans have been made, and the female partners bought for him - before you`re 100% confident?!
You really could be on the verge of landing yourself with dozens of problematic little babies that are neither sellable (certainly not for the big bucks planned), breedable and are probably going to end up COSTING you money rather than making it!!! Why are you bothered about potential hatchling prices and doing research about prices, when there is an absolute tonne of far, far more important stuff that you need to research - especially before on the brink of a major breeding season?!

This isn`t meant or intended as an offensive, critical or damning post in the slightest - as said, all for anyone getting into the hobby as it`s so richly rewarding in many ways, I just genuinely hope you`re doing it for the right reasons. I may sound like a spoil sport, I`m just trying to sound like a realistic - it`s worrying that the potential is there for dozens, possibly hundreds, of expensive Enigma morphs to be created next season, and being sold on (even if in good faith) by someone simply because they haven`t got a clue of the differences between an apparently healthy Enigma, and a non healthy Enigma. Scary if I`m being honest, scary that the priority seems to be how much something is worth and not how healthy it is for breeding.

Anyroad, that`s my 2 penneth - I NEEDED to say something (even if I`m the only one) in the hope that some of it will possibly make you just slow down and take stock of the situation for a few weeks. There`s a `motto` of sorts that`s often offered and advised in the lizard section (not claiming any credit though!) that seems to only be remembered on certain occasions - `Research and read, Before you buy and breed`.

Good luck with it all, and I genuinely, genuinley mean that.


----------



## Demon9374 (Apr 22, 2009)

> If the situation arises that you hatch out a fair number of unsellable, maybe unrehomable enigmas, have you considered what you are going to do with them - in that are you keeping them on as pets, giving them away, having them put to sleep, having them seen by vet or are you going to sell them on as the morph they hatch regardless


I would never sell on a problematic enigma, as to what will happen to any that should/will arrise from breeding, (not next years season) (only doing Nova x Mack/Eclipse). I haven't thought about until tonight. And should any show small signs, ie, being wobbly on foot, they wouldn't be kept to be bred from, the breeding will stop there & from the parents, they will be pets, or if it's severe, put to sleep. But thinking about it as I type this, the projects I'd like to achieve, I don't really need or want to breed from my enigma, as I don't need or want the heart ache of having to put them to sleep, so she will stay in my collection as a pet. Ofc, this doesn't stop further problems arrising from Nova x Mack Snow, as 25% chance any egg will be a Mack Snow Enigma & problems could arrise from there on in my breeding projects.

How does one put them to sleep? Vets? Or CO2? Didn't want to ask this before you edited your reply, as I figured people would start flaming if I mentioned it. :/



> In no way, shape or form am I trying to dampen your enthusiasm for wanting to breed exciting, fresh leopard gecko morphs - but considering these are your first leos, then what`s the rush.....why don`t you just breed a couple?


Well as for breeding, I'll just be doing (Nova x Mack Snow/Eclipse) The Enigma, very doubtful as I've read about them being problematic lately, I think mine maybe aswell, not sure if it's tied to problematic Enigmas? As it's only 1 bad shed I've seen from the couple of shed's she had being with me, but she does at times seem wobbly on her feet when walking about & from a thread on here about neuro problems, I read that their gecko took a good 3-4 tries to catch it's prey. Mine seems this way too, however, it could just be the bad shed skin which is stuck over her eye clouding her vision. I haven't witnessed any star gazing, walking circles, head tilt, twitching etc though.



> In all honesty, has the enthusiasm come from working out all the potential combos, or all the potential price tags?! Personally, and yup - looks like it could well be just my opinion - you need to take a breath about it all, especially as you admit that you aren`t even sure if your primary breeder - the Nova you`ve just bought - is displaying any issues or not, as you simply don`t know what to look for (your own words)!


Enthusiasm of the potential combo's, as I don't know why I asked the price of the morphs anyways, it was a pointless question & not an important one as you said, as they all won't be sold on, they'll be kept in my collection should I hatch any to ensure they're healthy for future plans, as I've got quite interested in the combo's and would like to create Super Snows/Super Nova's long plan, but one I intend to stick to.

And the Nova, from reading about the problems, he hasn't & doesn't show any of the signs, and as someone said as he's an adult, he may of grown out of any problems if he had any in the first place.

As I'm new to Leo's, I only went in for 3 rats originally for my Boa & came home with a lovely trio. So before hand I obviously didn't know about problematic Enigma's -Even if I was interested in Leo's before purchasing & did my research, I wouldn't of known where to start with the morphs and probably wouldn't come across anything about enigmas being problematic in any care sheets.

And as I said I didn't know what to look for, I was hoping someone would pick up on that, and give me alittle info at the time.



> in the hope that some of it will possibly make you just slow down and take stock of the situation for a few weeks. There`s a `motto` of sorts that`s often offered and advised in the lizard section (not claiming any credit though!) that seems to only be remembered on certain occasions - `Research and read, Before you buy and breed`.


Perhaps I should slow down, I do get overwhelmed by it all & start doing everything at once, working what morphs I'll get out of this n that combo etc

^Good motto.



> Good luck with it all, and I genuinely, genuinley mean that.


Thanks & no offence taken. : victory:


----------

