# A Far Cry From Nature



## FelixMarmite (Dec 11, 2007)

My Auntie sent me these videos that her friend made and posted on YouTube.

The description on the video is described, 'Terraristika one of the largest exotic animal markets in the world, which takes place in Hamm, Germany. A film by the Animal Protection Agency and International Animal Rescue. '

Just incase anybody would be interested to watch 

Part 1 - YouTube - A Far Cry from Nature - Part 1 
Part 2 - YouTube - A Far Cry from Nature - Part 2

Thanks.
*xxx*


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

its rather like filming crufts and all the dog crates and iccle bitty stands they are kept on all day though.......


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## FelixMarmite (Dec 11, 2007)

I suppose. But I think that most of the dogs are treated better than some of the reptiles that are shown in the videos. But I do agree with you.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

FelixMarmite said:


> I suppose. But I think that most of the dogs are treated better than some of the reptiles that are shown in the videos. But I do agree with you.


I know, and seeing the way some animals are cramped in to sales tubs does usually make me say something, I tend to use large tubs with hides and water bowls, with a sign up saying that the animals come first and to ask if you want to see something thats in hiding......... I sold out at Barking so must have been doing something right .


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Ok, that's a wonderful animal-rights-activist version of events.

I see a lot of animals that are going into those tubs for SHORT time periods that were CAPTIVE BRED, not wild animals... 

No, the housing you see isn't suitable for long term housing. But it's the equivalent of putting a hamster into a cardboard box to take it home from the pet shop. Some of those tubs did look too small. Some of the enclosures were lovely and comparatively more spacious than I would have expected at Hamm.

And I wonder if they got INFORMED consent from the people they were filming prior to doing it... did they TELL them they were from what is essentially Animal Aid before filming stalls including UKMorphs' royals?


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

Thats old video.


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

LOl they should have one on human rights many on the forum members travel to hamm a few times a year me included and from the moment my reps are picked up they get offered water and avipro and i also take bits for them to hide in as well 

I bought reps which do not like to much heat they came back on my lap in a poly box being checked every hour with me staying awake the entire time they arrived many hours later all healthy and happy and me well i was very very tired had a rash on my legs and felt i might puke from sheer exhaustion any min but I'd expext that of any keeper who cares and many of us do funny how you never see a poor humans and healthy happy reps thread LOL
trust me many exhausted dehydrayted and sickly looking humans sitting on stairs to be found each year at hamm LOL
paula xx


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Ahhh the voice of Clifford Warwick, the only reptile biologist i know of with a degree or 2 that refers to snakes as 'poisonous' (funny in itself). Must admit though, i did agree with some of the points he raised in those 2 videos.


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## Skyespirit86 (Feb 23, 2008)

This has totally peed me off, however I feel this is exactly what is intended- typical animal 'rights' people who know NOTHING about a subject, taking a totally extreme view, being downright horrible, and then refusing to accept any backlash- you cannot post comments about the video which makes it obvious they are completely arrogant in their thinking and unable to communicate fairly with people about it or take any evidence to the contrary. 

So much of what is said is totally uneducated and wrong, and also a very nasty and unfair protrayal of reptile keeping. What is their problem? The majority of reptile keepers are very repsonsible- take a forum such as this one, if you have something even the tiniest bit imperfect a more seasoned expert will give you a lecture on what you should be doing. 

The tubs and pots the animals are in at the show are not their actual housing you total numbskull- either you really are that dumb, or you are intentionally lying to paint an unfair picture of the hobby because of some personal thing you have against it. :devil: What gives you the right to make a film about this show, totally slating a huge number of knowledgeable and caring owners when you haven't researched a single flipping thing about the subject? That's how much you care. Its just an ego boost for you.

As if anyone would actually house a lizard in a small tub like what is shown in the film. Look at the condition its in for starters. If it really lived in that all the time it would probably be dead, inactive, in poor physical condition, but no they are all looking vibrant- because they are well cared for! The turtles are only trapped in the water temporarily- when they get home the owner no doubt has sufficient housing for it, where it can get onto land, bask, and have room to move about. They are also not all frightened to death. Many specie are naturally a bit nervous and owners of reptiles respect that totally, but take bearded dragns for instance- friendly and cheeky, and most become very tame. They appear happy in their set ups, shown by the fact they breed and show natural behaviours.
People only recommend that certain reptiles do not need large amounts of space due to the fact they are a nervous species. Snakes are notoriously 'agoraphobic', they have to have somewhere dark to hide. If they cannot hide they will feel insecure an the stress of this may make them refuse food. This is especially a problem with royal pythons for example who REALLY DO stop feeding for many owners if place in too large a viv, if they don't have suitable hides or if the light is too bright...That's another point- if they really were so frightened, and being handled terribly, then they would exhibit stressed behaviour when placed backin their housing, and woul probably lose condition over time. A truly cornere of frightened animal would be acting a lot more crazily than those featured, and may bite, or require equipment with which to handle it- they are just being active an isplaying natural righting instincts and shyness. If a species does need more space then it is advise you provide it. Commercial breeders and large scale collectors will often compromise a bit because of need to use space efficiently, however the animals will always have space to move about, hide away, clean bedding, and proper handling/feeding. People enjoy learning how to do it right- we're not all like those nightmare cases you see on animal hospital where abused reptiles get rescued ill and injured, we hate those people too!

They are just taken to these places for display. Hobbyists and breeders etc like to get together, share ideas, show each other their animals and swap/sell/buy stuff. People don't just breed these animals for money- they have a passion for reptiles and in Britain noone really makes any money from breeding commercially, it is mainly a part time or hobby thing. Do you KNOW how expensive this hobby is! 

They are not totally wild animals, they are born in captivity the majority of the time. There is definately NOT disrespect for the animal's care or welfare going on- being reponsible and knowledgeable about their care is something the vast majority of keepers take pride in.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

As with all "animal rights" type arguments, there are elements of truth and reason in what they say. The problem, however, is that their _a priori_ political agenda prevents them from modifying their stance when the evidence suggests they might be wrong. Because of that they only look for evidence that supports their argument...and you can find evidence to support pretty much any argument if you look hard enough and present it in the right way...

As Disraeli famously said, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."


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## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

a very biased portrayal, with alot of incorrect statements given as fact.


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## beege_3 (May 20, 2005)

A totally biased portrayal of the care at Shows.


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## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

It's pretty biased and is probably intended to mislead people who aren't familiar with reptiles.

There are still some valid points made though - I've never been to Hamm so I don't know whether the film's portrayal of venomous snakes and they way in which they are displayed is accurate or not. If they are really kept in small, plastic tubs such as that then perhaps it's something that should be addressed - like the film says, it's an accident waiting to happen.

I have no doubt that the film makers will have trawled through hours and hours of footage to find the worst examples to make a film a few minutes long, but there are a few shots in there that make me - as a reptile keeper - cringe. The adult beardie in a box around 8-9" long where it is forced to bend and can't move is one example; the baby terrapin in a poly box where it has no land and can't touch the bottom would be another. Most of the stuff they show is just presented out of context - the small boxes are literally display / travel boxes that the animal will be in for a day or so. That said, regardless of your stance as a reptile keeper and regardless of any bias in the film as a whole, there are plenty of areas that shows in general could - and perhaps should - improve on.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

HadesDragons said:


> It's pretty biased and is probably intended to mislead people who aren't familiar with reptiles.
> 
> There are still some valid points made though - I've never been to Hamm so I don't know whether the film's portrayal of venomous snakes and they way in which they are displayed is accurate or not. If they are really kept in small, plastic tubs such as that then perhaps it's something that should be addressed - like the film says, it's an accident waiting to happen.
> 
> I have no doubt that the film makers will have trawled through hours and hours of footage to find the worst examples to make a film a few minutes long, but there are a few shots in there that make me - as a reptile keeper - cringe. The adult beardie in a box around 8-9" long where it is forced to bend and can't move is one example; the baby terrapin in a poly box where it has no land and can't touch the bottom would be another. Most of the stuff they show is just presented out of context - the small boxes are literally display / travel boxes that the animal will be in for a day or so. That said, regardless of your stance as a reptile keeper and regardless of any bias in the film as a whole, there are plenty of areas that shows in general could - and perhaps should - improve on.


Totally agreed Hades, those were the images that made me think that the anti's had very fair points too, and i too cringed when i saw some of those shots. There is definitely room for improvement there, some of it looked very out of order regarding animal welfare and the DWA's just left in flimsy tubs on the respective table seems a little irresponsible to say the least.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

just watched all 18 mins of it.
hmm
and towards teh end of the second one... coach to the show and many RFUK'ers are on it...


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## beege_3 (May 20, 2005)

Just a thought, but if anyone can recognise themselves in it then I'm sure they could have the video removed due to not signing a Public Disclosure (i think thats what it's called).. After all, it's pretty derogatory.


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## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

beege_3 said:


> Just a thought, but if anyone can recognise themselves in it then I'm sure they could have the video removed due to not signing a Public Disclosure (i think thats what it's called).. After all, it's pretty derogatory.


I could be wrong but i believe that out in public permission is not needed.

I base this those police programs where people i have seen express a wish not to be filmed and they are told that as long as it is filmed in a public space then no permission is needed.

Please correct me tho if anyone knows different.


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## FelixMarmite (Dec 11, 2007)

Alex M said:


> Ahhh the voice of Clifford Warwick, the only reptile biologist i know of with a degree or 2 that refers to snakes as 'poisonous' (funny in itself). Must admit though, i did agree with some of the points he raised in those 2 videos.


I know of him. He was my Auntie's ex partner! :lol2:


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