# New DWA Animals added to our extensive livestock list



## Southampton Reptile (Apr 4, 2014)

Hi All, 

I thought I would share our new and VERY improved livestock list with you featuring some awesome DWA, All of which are available in store. 

Link to page is: Southampton Reptile Centre - Specialists in reptiles and pet products Livestock Southampton Reptile Centre - Specialists in reptiles and pet products

Look forward to seeing you soon. 

Southampton Reptile


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## Jabba the mentor (Nov 13, 2008)

Southampton Reptile said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I thought I would share our new and VERY improved livestock list with you featuring some awesome DWA, All of which are available in store.
> 
> ...


:gasp::gasp:HOW MUCH


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## coldestblood (Jun 4, 2011)

Wow, some seriously high prices for the hots.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

No self respecting legal keeper will pay most of those prices


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## mitsi (Feb 1, 2012)

I dont keep dwa, but am confused how a gila is alot more costly than a rattlesnake etc, anyone know why, I would have thought a gila would have been cheaper or are they just alot harder to get hold of?


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

well I wont be shopping there:gasp:


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## discoferret (Aug 31, 2006)

Yep very expensive Ive seen crotalus atrox's for 40 euro!


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## coldestblood (Jun 4, 2011)

mitsi said:


> I dont keep dwa, but am confused how a gila is alot more costly than a rattlesnake etc, anyone know why, I would have thought a gila would have been cheaper or are they just alot harder to get hold of?


 If you discount the danger involved, most of the commonly kept rattlers are no different to corns. Lots of them around, easy to care for, and easy to breed. In comparison, gilas are relatively new to the hobby, and they're a bit more complicated to keep and breed than a rattlers. They also have much smaller clutches, so the demand for them is still there.


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

£495 for a mangrove snake?

lol okayyyyy.


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## SilverSky (Oct 2, 2010)

the link no longer works, i think you guys upset them : victory:


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Owzy said:


> £495 for a mangrove snake?
> 
> lol okayyyyy.


:2thumb:


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

Yeah the link doesnt work for me either:blush:


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## discoferret (Aug 31, 2006)

Link is working but all DWA's are not for sale now.


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## coldestblood (Jun 4, 2011)

discoferret said:


> Link is working but all DWA's are not for sale now.


Looks like someone is going to need a DWAL then. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure a PSL only covers animals for sale.


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

coldestblood said:


> Looks like someone is going to need a DWAL then. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure a PSL only covers animals for sale.


Could quite easily mean they were for sale and have been reserved.

I think everyone is being overly picky in regards to that and they are quite within their rights to play the technicalities if others are. 

I can think of a few shops that have DWA animals that don't have a price or for sale tag on them.


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## Jabba the mentor (Nov 13, 2008)

No idea where they dream up them prices


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## projectalf (Mar 28, 2014)

Jabba the mentor said:


> No idea where they dream up them prices


I know mate atrox are a tenner not £100


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## Jabba the mentor (Nov 13, 2008)

projectalf said:


> I know mate atrox are a tenner not £100


I couldnt give them away at one time


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## Southampton Reptile (Apr 4, 2014)

*Different species demand different prices*



Owzy said:


> £495 for a mangrove snake?
> 
> lol okayyyyy.


Hi ya
This is captive Bred female mangrove and is Boiga dendrophila Melanota not the cheaper species.


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## Southampton Reptile (Apr 4, 2014)

All the DWA species in store are for our own enjoyment and to add an extra "wow factor" to our shop, especially as so few public collections exhibit venomous species.

We are not asking any one to buy our snakes, we don't particularly want to sell them, and if some one was serious about purchasing one of our snakes we would obviously be open for a discussion on price. It is just easier to list them for sale, and this is why they are highly priced. 

We also feel advertising venomous for sale cheaply in our shop could potentially encourage the wrong type of keeper.


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## Southampton Reptile (Apr 4, 2014)

Jabba the mentor said:


> I couldnt give them away at one time


All the DWA species in store are for our own enjoyment and to add an extra "wow factor" to our shop, especially as so few public collections exhibit venomous species.

We are not asking any one to buy our snakes, we don't particularly want to sell them, and if some one was serious about purchasing one of our snakes we would obviously be open for a discussion on price. It is just easier to list them for sale, and this is why they are highly priced. 

We also feel advertising venomous for sale cheaply in our shop could potentially encourage the wrong type of keeper.


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## Bradleybradleyc (May 7, 2012)

Southampton Reptile said:


> All the DWA species in store are for our own enjoyment and to add an extra "wow factor" to our shop, especially as so few public collections exhibit venomous species.
> 
> We are not asking any one to buy our snakes, we don't particularly want to sell them, and if some one was serious about purchasing one of our snakes we would obviously be open for a discussion on price. It is just easier to list them for sale, and this is why they are highly priced.
> 
> We also feel advertising venomous for sale cheaply in our shop could potentially encourage the wrong type of keeper.


You have put they are for sale so they are covered by a PSL I would guess??? Otherwise you would need a dwal 

How would you encourage the wrong type of keeper ? You should esure anyone had a dwal.


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## Southampton Reptile (Apr 4, 2014)

Yes covered under the PSL. 

Yes we would 100% check that the customer had a DWA by contacting the local council however we are not actively looking to sell these and therefore we have them priced higher than Europe (40 euros) Im pretty sure the people charging 40 euros are not taking a moral judgement on it and are selling babies with the buyer not able to go back if its a non feeder or there is something potentially wrong. 

We are a bricks and mortar shop and therefore also give the after service. Just because our DWA is priced higher (which we are not denying) doesnt mean everything else is priced high (we are one of the most competitive shops along the South coast.


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## DaOG (Jun 6, 2013)

Heres a question to put to all the people talking about the price who have a DWA.

How many of you would go to a shop for a DWA snake as I suspect most if not all have contacts and friends who breed and sell the snakes they want anyways?


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## Mulv (Feb 20, 2009)

Comparing the price of an animal from a reputable shop based supplier with the price you pay at a show in Europe really has no argument at all.

I would suggest that you can't really use that kind of mentality to a lot of things in life. For example - a used car sat in a main dealership for that manufacturer and the same model on eBay from a private seller - which are you likely to pay more for?
Peace of mind is worth the extra cost to most people.


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## DaOG (Jun 6, 2013)

Mulv said:


> Comparing the price of an animal from a reputable shop based supplier with the price you pay at a show in Europe really has no argument at all.
> 
> I would suggest that you can't really use that kind of mentality to a lot of things in life. For example - a used car sat in a main dealership for that manufacturer and the same model on eBay from a private seller - which are you likely to pay more for?
> Peace of mind is worth the extra cost to most people.


 
I do think that the prices are justified, Joe public who have no real enthusiasm if they saw a venomous snake in a shop at 10 or 20 quid will want one more than if they are at 100 quid. Them people will have the snake as a status symbol, the prices are there to protect people from themselves.


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## Mulv (Feb 20, 2009)

Couldn't agree more.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Its up to every businessman to charge what he thinks is acceptable and achievable in any marketplace.

However no DWA holder in the UK is ever likely to pay those prices.

The price structure is such that they are unlikely ever to sell and they dont want to sell (as stated) and therefore the whole PSL and DWA requirement is blurred particularly as they admit its a shits and giggles thing.


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

mitsi said:


> I dont keep dwa, but am confused how a gila is alot more costly than a rattlesnake etc, anyone know why, I would have thought a gila would have been cheaper or are they just alot harder to get hold of?


Rattlesnakes are very common and relatively easy to breed. Gila Monsters are protected under CITES and even in their native American homeland they still fetch high prices and are controlled by permits. At the European reptile shows they range in price between €800 - €1,300 (£660 - £1,070). They are specialised animals that require specific conditioning in order to breed and even then success is not guaranteed. There are far fewer people keeping Heloderma than venomous snakes so supply and demand keeps the prices high.... and to be honest I wouldn't want to see their values drop to the level of so many other reptiles in the hobby. I'm not just saying that because I spent a fair amount of euros putting my group together, but rather to help keep their status as an iconic lizard intact.




Mulv said:


> Comparing the price of an animal from a reputable shop based supplier with the price you pay at a show in Europe really has no argument at all.
> .


I absolutely agree. We all know that you can buy corn snakes, leopard geckos or bearded dragons at (for example) the Doncaster show for a lot less than in a UK pet store.... yet in this case people are comparing a UK pet store to european show prices which are obviously a lot lower as there are several hundred traders vying for thousands of show goers money. Also people need to bear in mind the cost of traveling over to these big shows. I take the Jeep over on the ferry @ £240, plus meals on the boat (x2) £37, roughly £200 + in diesel so it all adds up.
Thankfully I have family living in Germany or else I'd have to stick the cost of a hotel room on top of that.


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## Tim Hallam (Aug 17, 2010)

I've come across this high premium for DWAA reptiles in the past and it's basically a get around petshops want DWAA animals as a draw for punters (fair enough) however you cant simply display DWAA or any other animals without a Zoo licence. under the petshop licencing rules animals on show must be offered for sale therefore its cheaper an far simpler to have a daft price tag attached. having a private DWAA licence wouldn't allow third parties ( the public) to view animals as that would be a breach of licencing conditions.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

You raise some interesting points, but I am not sure you are entirely correct. Section 5(3) of the DWAA simply states: premises licensed as a pet shop under the Pet Animals Act 1951 are exempt from the Act. It remains silent on any other aspects, the Act does not state that members of the public cannot view animals listed on the schedule, the relevant LA could attach this as a condition, but the legality of such a condition is questionable.

Section 7(1) of the PAA states: references in this Act to the keeping of a pet shop shall, subject to the following provisions of this section, be construed as references to the carrying on at premises of any nature (including a private dwelling) of a business of selling animals as pets, and as including references to the keeping of animals in any such premises as aforesaid with a view to their being sold in the course of such a business, whether by the keeper thereof or by any other person. 

However, Section 1(2) of the ZLA states that a zoo means an establishment where wild animals are kept for exhibition to the public….otherwise than in a pet shop‘. A pet shop‘ is premises for whose keeping as a pet shop a licence is in force, or is required, under the Pet Animals Act 1951‘. If the animal is kept for exhibition to the public in premises that has a pet shop licence then no zoo licence is required.


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

I noticed a Gaboon Viper in a pet shop a couple of years ago with a £999:00 price tag.... it is obvious that the snake was priced not to sell.

On the subject of premises holding medically significant species, I think the first priority is that they should be housed in such a way as to present no danger to the public (secure, escape-proof cages and a robust safe working protocol). What the actual licence they are held under is called should be of secondary importance.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

PDR said:


> I noticed a Gaboon Viper in a pet shop a couple of years ago with a £999:00 price tag.... it is obvious that the snake was priced not to sell.
> 
> On the subject of premises holding medically significant species, I think the first priority is that they should be housed in such a way as to present no danger to the public (secure, escape-proof cages and a robust safe working protocol). What the actual licence they are held under is called should be of secondary importance.


I quite agree, when we revisited the Model Standards for Pet Shop Licences I insisted we tried to address some of the issues, the guidance below was as far as we could go. Curiously (bizarrely) members of the Animal Rights Lobby (Tolland & Warwick) tried to stop this…?

Model Conditions for Pet Vending Licensing 2013

*13. Dangerous Wild Animals as defined by the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976*

*13.1 Condition*
When dangerous wild animals are kept, the cages must be of a secure construction appropriate to the species and kept locked.

*Guidance*
Safety of staff and the general public should be of utmost importance and safety barriers may aid in this, as well as prevention of escape.

*13.2 Condition*
The local authority must be notified in the event that the pet shop wishes to offer for sale, any animal on the Schedule to the Dangerous Wild Animals Act.

*Guidance*
The primary requirements of the Act are to protect the public but there are also welfare implications. Although it is acknowledged that there is an exemption contained within the Act in relation to pet shops, it is recommended that consideration should be given to complying with any special requirement(s) specified in the
Act for the safe accommodation and care of the animal.

Licensees selling animals on the Schedule to the Dangerous Wild Animals Act should inspect the purchaser’s licence to keep such an animal, and inform the issuing authority of the details of the purchase. Licensees should take note of the latest guidance from Defra/Scottish Government.


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## Tim Hallam (Aug 17, 2010)

two shops I know of were told that they would not be able to simply display animals under their petshop licence because it didn't cover exhibiting animals but they would be able to offer animals for sale - obviously then this was a provision within those (different) Local Authorities , which I would imagine is quite common across the UK , I know my own LA are very keen to know from where and to whom any animals came and went , I guess this is another form of control they can impose on the licence holder .


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## Jabba the mentor (Nov 13, 2008)

Chris Newman said:


> I quite agree, when we revisited the Model Standards for Pet Shop Licences I insisted we tried to address some of the issues, the guidance below was as far as we could go. Curiously (bizarrely) members of the Animal Rights Lobby (Tolland & Warwick) tried to stop this…?
> 
> Model Conditions for Pet Vending Licensing 2013
> 
> ...


What issues did you incised on addressing?


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

£495 notes for boiga is someone smoking crack when there pricing up jesus that the most expensive boiga ive ever seen i could get the ptyas carinata from paris i saw for sale with travel costs included for that price :gasp::gasp:


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Tim Hallam said:


> two shops I know of were told that they would not be able to simply display animals under their petshop licence because it didn't cover exhibiting animals but they would be able to offer animals for sale - obviously then this was a provision within those (different) Local Authorities , which I would imagine is quite common across the UK , I know my own LA are very keen to know from where and to whom any animals came and went , I guess this is another form of control they can impose on the licence holder .


Both the DWAA and the PAA allow Local Authorities to attach conditions, however, such conditions have to be reasonable, proportionate relevant. Neither Act deals adequately with the issue of display and as a pet shop is a retail environment ‘display’ is important therefore it is questionably weather a LA is empowered to restrict a display of such animals. 

The situation is a mess and needs addressing, I had hoped we would have done more then just change one word from the 1998 review, but other than changing ‘should’ to ‘must’ the rest of the recommendations got dropped, shame.


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## Jabba the mentor (Nov 13, 2008)

Jabba the mentor said:


> What issues did you incised on addressing?


Cant be bothered to answer then Chris?


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Jabba the mentor said:


> Cant be bothered to answer then Chris?


 My response was above Paul…!!


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## Jabba the mentor (Nov 13, 2008)

Chris Newman said:


> My response was above Paul…!!


Paul?????????


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## Mulv (Feb 20, 2009)

mikeyb said:


> £495 notes for boiga is someone smoking crack when there pricing up jesus that the most expensive boiga ive ever seen i could get the ptyas carinata from paris i saw for sale with travel costs included for that price :gasp::gasp:


I seriously don't understand this mentality. 
If you wouldn't pay what someone is asking for a snake, don't pay it. 
If you can get it cheaper elsewhere, buy it elsewhere.
What are you achieving by posting this?

Ever crossed your mind that someone might price something up because they are in no rush to sell? Happens all the time with cars - something I'm sure you will be able to understand.


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## ION (Feb 3, 2014)

One way or the other this is a strange post. Apparently the snakes are priced not to sell, so why post it on here in the first place?


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Mulv said:


> I seriously don't understand this mentality.
> If you wouldn't pay what someone is asking for a snake, don't pay it.
> If you can get it cheaper elsewhere, buy it elsewhere.
> What are you achieving by posting this?
> ...


The difference is that these are living creatures, not machines! There are all the extra costs - food, electricity, bedding, housing, etc etc. It does strike me as rather odd that someone whose business is buying animals to sell on for a profit would decide to buy in animals, list them on their pricelist, then back down when they get heavily criticised for astronomically high prices, by trying to claim that they are priced that way so that thye don't sell! If you don't want to sell them, why advertise them with a price to start with?? It makes no sense, because the longer they stay in the shop due to silly proces, the more they costing the shop.


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## Addymk2 (Dec 25, 2009)

ian14 said:


> The difference is that these are living creatures, not machines! There are all the extra costs - food, electricity, bedding, housing, etc etc. It does strike me as rather odd that someone whose business is buying animals to sell on for a profit would decide to buy in animals, list them on their pricelist, then back down when they get heavily criticised for astronomically high prices, by trying to claim that they are priced that way so that thye don't sell! If you don't want to sell them, why advertise them with a price to start with?? It makes no sense, because the longer they stay in the shop due to silly proces, the more they costing the shop.


Taxing a car costs more than looking after a lotta reps for year not to mention servicing and insuring the thing. 

I put this case down to a lack of market research and thinking they were rarer than they are.


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## SilverSky (Oct 2, 2010)

ION said:


> One way or the other this is a strange post. Apparently the snakes are priced not to sell, so why post it on here in the first place?


to get people in the door, dwa are always an attraction, so the longer they stay in the shop the better, but they need to actually have a price on them to cover them under the pet shop license.


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## coldestblood (Jun 4, 2011)

SilverSky said:


> to get people in the door, dwa are always an attraction, so the longer they stay in the shop the better, but they need to actually have a price on them to cover them under the pet shop license.


They don't need to have an advertised price, they just need to be for sale. They could have simply put, 'License holders only, ask staff for details'.

Instead of putting a ridiculous price, couldn't you just say they were breeding stock? Would make a bit more sense, as the animals wouldn't need to be for sale, but they'd still be part of the business.


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## JRB 89 (Aug 5, 2013)

coldestblood said:


> Wow, some seriously high prices for the hots.


see i looked at the list expecting to be heartbroken, as i really would love a rattler one day, they have the most amazing faces. when i saw it for £100 i was amazed it was so cheap! i would have paid so much more for one!
but you say that they are normally even cheaper? i would have thought that they would be more expensive to put off the dreamers.


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## projectalf (Mar 28, 2014)

JRB 89 said:


> see i looked at the list expecting to be heartbroken, as i really would love a rattler one day, they have the most amazing faces. when i saw it for £100 i was amazed it was so cheap! i would have paid so much more for one!
> but you say that they are normally even cheaper? i would have thought that they would be more expensive to put off the dreamers.


Atrox£10-20 for a young one... So yeah £100 is over top


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## Pave (Jun 5, 2014)

Even the non-DWA stuff is very expensive :gasp:

Perhaps they come with cash-back...or gold plated enclosures.


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