# Pedigree Dogs Exposed - BBC1



## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

is anyone watching this ? I am utterly utterly disgusted at these ridiculous owners who keep their stupidly ill dogs alive at whatever cost - the little spaniel who had the back half of its skull removed to allow its brain to work properly coz it was so inter bred its skull was too small - its died a few days later - thy said on the programme that the dogs were usually in pain - what sick idiot does this to a beloved pet - and those people who kept that boxer with severe epilepsy?? I'm really sorry if this offends but I dont care - these people should be shot - what sort of a life does that dog have??? I have a boxer cross breed and if my dog EVER showed such symptoms I'm afraid that she would have to be put to sleep coz in my opinion that would be the kindest thing to do and not let them suffer and be in such pain they are rolling around on the floor whimpering - disgusting and I am so upset by this programme!!!


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/off-topic-chat/171147-pedigree-dogs-problems.html Thread here hun. that boxer was shocking. What makes them keep it alive in that state?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

_Im watching it to.Those GSD were disgusting my friend breeds and shows her GSD and NONE of them move like that. My Poodle has epilepsy but nothing like that poor Boxer. It couldnt even walk up the steps. Also Killing Ridgeback pups without the ridge, why not sell to pet homes.The whole thing is so sad but The pedigree world works differently than everyone else _


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## Iliria (Jan 19, 2007)

sat watching it now, its disgusting. that woman saying that healthy rhodesian ridgebacks should be culled if they dont have the ridge GRRRR and then saying that new vets are terrible beacause they wont put puppies down!!!!!
so many dogs they have shown so far need to be put to sleep its terrible


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

sorry for the duplicate post - I didnt realise was just so disgusted I just came on and posted coz I needed to say something to some-one!!! shell - my boxer X had a cancer also which was removed and I agree to intervention to a humane level like with your poodle but that poor poor boxer!!!


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

no problem hun I started making a thread and had two tabs open at the same time and noticed that in off topic so stopped.


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## Iliria (Jan 19, 2007)

i feel so sorry for all the dogs, they never asked for all rubbish that breeding has given them


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## shell2909 (Jun 30, 2008)

i cant believe what that woman said about the ridge backs no line down the middle, kill it off then-utterly disgusting :censor:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

I aint watched it as i dont have a TV but reading the replys i dont think i wanted to either :bash:


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## shell2909 (Jun 30, 2008)

sorry Iliria went straight to reply didnt realise youve already posted that
still disgusted though


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## Iliria (Jan 19, 2007)

you dont want to see. the crufts judge for GSDs thinks that GSD's who cant walk properly who's legs cant suppoert them are the true form of the breed


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY WITH THE KC!

Always has been


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

terrible - culling innocent pups the stupid thing is I think the original dogs look much better that the mutants breeders have produced now - like the bulldog etc


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## Titch1980 (Mar 6, 2006)

is it repeated? ive missed half of it forgot it was on


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

I worked in a kennel, AND

the ammount of bulldogs with problems and basset hounds, you would be suprised


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

rach1980 said:


> is it repeated? ive missed half of it forgot it was on


It will be put up on iplayer either tonight or tomorrow I would imagine. BBC iPlayer - Home < i think


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## Iliria (Jan 19, 2007)

stephenie191 said:


> ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY WITH THE KC!
> 
> Always has been


tell me about it! i know someone who was breeding papillions ( dont know if still is) breeding siblings etc one bitch every litter she had at least 2 died within days sometimes more. it got to th epoint there were 3 bitches and their litters locked in a garage with the stud dogs covered in their oen crap. they then charged 850 for bitches and 500 for dogs:bash::bash:


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## leo19 (Mar 16, 2008)

i think its disgusting that pretty much all of the kennel clubs standards are ill mutated dogs, they are incouraging the destruction of healthy dogs for cosmetic looks! something must be done!!!!!!!


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## labmad (Sep 23, 2007)

An eye opener for many I guess, and for some confirmation of what they already suspected..........a very SAD fact, brought a tear to my eye watching the poor boxer which was epileptic, and the noise it was making was dredful, clearly in discomfort and probably pain.......

Just watch, over the next 10, 20, 30 years or so we will see several if not many of the breeds we know and love being bred into extinction because of state of play now.......are we a nation of animal lovers or just greedy morons who only look out for number 1?


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

What amazes me is they are so concerned about dog welfare yet they turn the light on and make a lot of noise around an animal that's fitting! Anyone who knows anything about epilepsy knows you don't increase stimulation be it human or animal without prolonging the fit I was disgusted at their distinct lack of compassion for the dog, chances are the fit was induced by them actually being in its home! 

Epilepsy is a disease that can't be predicted in either humans or dogs any breeder unfortuate enough to produce an epileptic should and 95% of the ones I know do stop breeding the lines that have produced such animals. Without research using Dog DNA there would be no tests for some terrible diseases that afflict humans, ask any parent of a child with an incurable genetic disease if they were upset about dogs suffering from the disease and breeders paying for research for a test that is now used to screen humans.......... can you tell you they wouldn't give a flying fig about the dogs just their children and not breeding any more themselves.

Funny how the program maker has received monies from the KC Charitable trust and how she stuck to breeds that are known to have problems, not the vast majority who don't all she's going to acheive is perpetuating backyard breeders of these so called 'designer dogs' where no testing is done and the objective is money money money. 

I am an accredited breeder, I do test even for things that aren't in the breed, as a way of monitoring my own progeny. When I had the misfortune of producing epileptics I stopped that bloodline as soon as I knew about it. It wasn't until my bitch was 8 yrs old that she started to fit herself but I didn't wait that long all her progeny were neutered, thankfully I endorse my pups not that that stops folks from breeding and not registering ie underground breeding of 'rare dogs', but as we all know there is only so much you can do to ensure a good home for you animals. 

1 lady in Sweden had a bitch from me she'd made a champion who'd passed all the tests necessary for the Swedish kennel club from that same line, she also was neutered and I sent her a new puppy from a different bloodline as a gesture of goodwill. I am at present collecting DNA samples for charting of epilepsy in dogs in Helsinki research centre, non of these sorts of things made an appearance in that documentary such a shame as many of us are trying to improve things for our dogs after all they are much loved pets first.

Don't get me wrong there is a lot wrong in any animal based hobby, look at goldfish with their huge eyes and horses so highly strung they are nervous wrecks, poultry incapable of breeding without help ie turkey's, there are good guys and bad ones in all area's of animal breeding including reptiles, its how we deal with the bad guys that matters.

Crufts best of breed winner








Lazy bones in my bedroom at home pet first!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Good on you Schip - you've just made the exact point that I was trying to get over on another forum.

Yes, there are breeders who don't know what they are doing and there are breeders who do what they do for money, but the majority of breeders do it for the love of their chosen breed and what they want is to breed a better dog, not a sicker dog - a better dog to continually improve the breed and loads of them end up out of pocket not coining in the dosh as people seem to think!

Conscientious breeders will always test their animals if there is a known genetic fault in their breed and will neuter anything that carries or produces that problem!

As far as the programme itself was concerned it was an eye opener and it does prove that where big money is involved with top winning dogs, anything goes! The Cavaliers were a perfect example - I thought it was f*cking brilliant that they caught out that Best in Show woman with her dog, and also thought it was interesting that the breeders wouldn't talk to the reporter outside the House of Commons, cos "they thought it was out of order for them to interview the breeder at their show". Why???

The Ridgeback situation made me very angry because that is totally out of order to cull for such a pathetic reason. Those are the dogs that should be petted out, not killed!

And the couple with the boxer and that Cavalier screaming in pain made me feel quite sick - I could not sit and watch my dog go through that - the boxer fitted on top of a previous fit - that's just not right and the Cavalier - that couldn't have been the first time that screaming had happened - they put it down a few days later I believe, but how they could have left it that long just defeats me.


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## browner93 (Dec 17, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> _Im watching it to.Those GSD were disgusting my friend breeds and shows her GSD and NONE of them move like that. My Poodle has epilepsy but nothing like that poor Boxer. It couldnt even walk up the steps. *Also Killing Ridgeback pups without the ridge, why not sell to pet homes.*The whole thing is so sad but The pedigree world works differently than everyone else _


it is horible i am glad my GSD's are pure but with out them vile sloping backs!


exsacly what i said!

Josh


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## stucoady (May 23, 2008)

Having seen the programme, I can not understand why you would breed a pug for example from what it looked like over 100 years ago to what it is now. Why, the original breed looked far more beautiful and healthy.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

browner93 said:


> it is horible i am glad my GSD's are pure but with out them vile sloping backs!
> 
> 
> exsacly what i said!
> ...


My GSD was from top show winning lines - he had a 'mild' slope, which I think is right for the breed, but no way did he have hindfeet that stood at 10 to 2!!!


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## rachel132002 (Dec 4, 2006)

Lots of bad dogs and bad breeders, my dog was meant to be KC reg'd the 'breeder' was but yeah i'm 99.9% they just bought him from a puppy farm to sell on and because of bad breeding he has hip dysplasia as bad as can be and he's not even 2 yet.

If he were fitting or doing anything those dogs on that programme were i'd have him PTS BECAUSE i love him and couldn't make him suffer like those animals clearly are.


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## browner93 (Dec 17, 2007)

feorag said:


> My GSD was from top show winning lines - he had a 'mild' slope, which I think is right for the breed, but no way did he have hindfeet that stood at 10 to 2!!!


the hip score on my two is good yet blue the male had a more slope to his back yet it is no wer neer like them on the tv or visible

Josh


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## 12kslr33 (May 20, 2008)

didnt watch it, but my concern and this is something that sickens me is that you would put the boxer down bcoz it has epilesy and fits, my brother who is 8 suffers from this but i wouldnt just put him down! i think some of you should think deeper and realise that humans also suffer from these also


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

12kslr33 said:


> didnt watch it, but my concern and this is something that sickens me is that you would put the boxer down bcoz it has epilesy and fits, my brother who is 8 suffers from this but i wouldnt just put him down! i think some of you should think deeper and realise that humans also suffer from these also


To be honest I think every situation is different. This dog had very very severe fits, and was clearly writhing in agony. People understand whats happening to them, and understand the need for medication, to avoid certain lighting etc. Dogs don't understand any of this. And trust me that poor dog was in SERIOUS distress. Couldn't walk up stairs. It was screaming, crying, howling, whatever you want to use to explain it. That's no life for a dog to lead in my honest opinion. Some of the other cases shown where shocking to. As Shell has already posted one of her dogs has mild epilepsy and they haven't put it to sleep as it's not to bad. As owners it's our duty to prevent pain and suffering any way possible, especially if it is effecting the dogs day to day living like the boxer on the programme.


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

well you didnt watch it and therefore you cannot comment on the horrendous scene that was the boxer fitting - humans do operate at a different level so maybe cannot tribute the same feeling BUT I do believe in personal choice and for example I watched my grandmother die slowly from cancer and my mother and I looked at each other and said 'you wouldnt put an animal through this why a human?' I certainly wouldnt have wanted to go through what she did and my grandfather after 14 years of renal dialysis chose to end his own life by refusing dialysis and dying a slow and painful death - again you wouldnt put an animal through that level of pain and suffering so the argument is there


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

but surely if you could choose to prevent such suffering you would if you had any level of compassion? sorry but I do feel very strongly about this


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## Lizard Loft (Mar 1, 2008)

I watched it aswell, and i have to say i knew selective breeding, and inbreeding had bad effects but this was just awful.

its really opened my eyes, im just glad my family has always had mongrels which have all lived 15+years and not had and genetic issues, 

its programmes like these that proove selective breeding and in breeding to exploit a trait, to measure up to some cosmetic want, or for any reason for that matter is imorale and shouldn't be done not only in dogs but in any animal. 

did anyone else find it ridiculous that the breeders, judges and members of the kennel club all couldn't see the problems they where causing, and all thort that the answer was to carry on as they are and breed out the defects,(which they had no idea about), i mean killing ridge back puppies because they had no ridge, is just shocking, the ridge was a defect and led to spinal problems anyway and ment they can get those holes to the spinal cord and brain, where as the ridgeless dont.

anyway, was a very interesting programme and any1 who hasn't seen it should, im sure it'll be on bbc iplayer


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Until the research groups have found the genes involved in the many forms of epilepsy how are you or I as a breeder going to 'choose' not to breed children, animals with this problem? 

Depending on which of you is the older should the younger have been allowed to be born because of epilepsy, for a dog its an easy choice if you produce it you stop the line as I did? For humans it is a different story because we like animals are programed to reproduce and can make that choice for our children as they are the ones who are going to suffer not the parents. Bit like using a sledge hammer to crack an egg but as that is the best option for either breeder or parents then its a choice that has to be made.

My own breed has a genetic lysomal storage disorder that is found in human's too it is a fatal gene and schipperkes were deliberately bred by Penn State University in a bid to collect DNA and chart the gene involved in this recessive disease. Prior to this discovery it was thought the breed suffered from 'Cluster epilepsy' which we now know isn't the case it was purely as symptom of the brain loss that is part of the disease. NOw thanks to the dogs we can eliminate the gene from our breeding animals as well as prevent human children being born with the disease thank goodness it is a recessive gene thus allowing us to maintain our bloodlines and breed with carrier parents in a bid to produce only clear animals for future breedings.

We have schips here over 15 yrs old its not just mongrels who are long lived and healthy, even my daughters pom is over 10 yrs with no health issues other than trying to eat a damned wasp that stung him in the mouth costing over £500 for his vets treatment and care 2 nights in the hospital on an iv whilst he swelling reduced, no epilepsy, no luxating patela, no collapsing trachea all supposed rife problems of toy breeds.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Katiexx said:


> To be honest I think every situation is different. This dog had very very severe fits, and was clearly writhing in agony. People understand whats happening to them, and understand the need for medication, to avoid certain lighting etc. Dogs don't understand any of this. And trust me that poor dog was in SERIOUS distress. Couldn't walk up stairs. It was screaming, crying, howling, whatever you want to use to explain it. That's no life for a dog to lead in my honest opinion. Some of the other cases shown where shocking to. As Shell has already posted one of her dogs has mild epilepsy and they haven't put it to sleep as it's not to bad. As owners it's our duty to prevent pain and suffering any way possible, especially if it is effecting the dogs day to day living like the boxer on the programme.


Just what I was going to say Katie.

I really don't think you can compare things like this between animals and humans. Humans have a higher level of understanding of what is happening to them. A lot of epileptics know what can trigger a fit and when they are going to have one - dogs can't, or if they can they cannot always communicate it to their owners. You didn't see the programme so you dont' know the level of fits this boxer was having. 

As animal owners we have a duty of care to our animals and one of those duties is not to allow them to suffer and in my opinion this dog was suffering and I know I could not have watched my dog go through this


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## tilly790 (Jan 24, 2008)

animal addict said:


> is anyone watching this ? I am utterly utterly disgusted at these ridiculous owners who keep their stupidly ill dogs alive at whatever cost - the little spaniel who had the back half of its skull removed to allow its brain to work properly coz it was so inter bred its skull was too small - its died a few days later - thy said on the programme that the dogs were usually in pain - what sick idiot does this to a beloved pet - and those people who kept that boxer with severe epilepsy?? I'm really sorry if this offends but I dont care - these people should be shot - what sort of a life does that dog have??? I have a boxer cross breed and if my dog EVER showed such symptoms I'm afraid that she would have to be put to sleep coz in my opinion that would be the kindest thing to do and not let them suffer and be in such pain they are rolling around on the floor whimpering - disgusting and I am so upset by this programme!!!


Well im more upset about the so called breeders who are breeding all these faults in the first place..they arnt animal lovers.. & as for the K.C well i cant print what i think of them.


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## tilly790 (Jan 24, 2008)

Iliria said:


> you dont want to see. the crufts judge for GSDs thinks that GSD's who cant walk properly who's legs cant suppoert them are the true form of the breed


 Wernt they a mess roach backs & very week on the hocks..that judge wanted shooting.


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## clair (Aug 19, 2007)

*Link to the iplayer*

BBC iPlayer - Pedigree Dogs Exposed

Here is the link for anyone that missed this show. Makes me wonder how long it will be before they make a show for the same principle in reptiles. If it took over 100 years for this one then i think it will be too little too late for more animal inbreds who will suffer in a less recognised hobbie.

Such a shame that humans can be so irresposible and i'm glad my dog is a Heinz 57 and that my boa is just a normal.

Shame on anyone who inbreeds for cosmetics.


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## Andy b 1 (May 14, 2007)

i think this would have upset me more than kill it skin it wear it tbh... did they kill any dogs on the show?


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Andy b 1 said:


> i think this would have upset me more than kill it skin it wear it tbh... did they kill any dogs on the show?


No, they didn't show any dogs being euthanised. They showed a few dogs in very bad ways, and in pain, but none being killed. They explained some of the dogs died/were euthanised a few days later n what not.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

I don't want to read this whole thread because the programme was disturbing enough.

Only just to add, if no-one has already made the point, a lot of these breeds will be put out of their misery one day when they become infertile from intensive inbreeding. Once a breed starts throwing offspring that are not viable you can say goodbye to that breed within time. All thanks to Crufts.

I think they said there are 10,000 pugs in the UK and only 50 separate lines. Wonder how long it will take for the 50 inbred lines cross ?

And that stupid blonde bird with the cavalier buzzin cus she just won a pretty rosette??? Never mind her congenitally diseased dog had fathered 34 litters and doomed those 34 litters to a painful congenital disease. But its ok cus he is BEST of breed :no1:

One of the most disgusting parts for me was the chairman of the basset hound club who was shown a photo of what the breed used to look like years ago. He said if he bred one like THAT he would be damn sure not to breed one like it again. :censor:ing disgusting. Said it all. 


Sorry probably all been said already I was just ranting :rant2:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

tilly790 said:


> Well im more upset about the so called breeders who are breeding all these faults in the first place..they arnt animal lovers.. & as for the K.C well i cant print what i think of them.


As a cat breeder I wish they would do one to expose what breeders and judges have done to Persians and Siamese! They too bear no resemblance to what they looked like in the 19th century. The persian has suffered so much because of need to have the flattest face possible. In fact steps were taken last year to stop breeders taking them to the extreme by bringing in a rule that the top of the nose had to be on or below the level of the bottom of the eye, because they were becoming so extreme that the nose was between the eyes. Siamese too have suffered by being bred thinner and thinner with extremely narrow skulls. I met a Siamese judge and breeder in America about 15 years ago who had won top Siamese more than once, but by the time the award was handed out the cat was dead! Scary stuff!!!

I am including judges in this because I think the judges must also take responsibility for what is happening to dog and cat breeds. If the judges choose extreme types as winners, then ambitious breeders will breed extreme types to win!




Pouchie said:


> I think they said there are 10,000 pugs in the UK and only 50 separate lines. Wonder how long it will take for the 50 inbred lines cross ?


I think you can safely say that they have well and truly crossed as not all those pugs will be being bred from only a minority of them.



Pouchie said:


> And that stupid blonde bird with the cavalier buzzin cus she just won a pretty rosette??? Never mind her congenitally diseased dog had fathered 34 litters and doomed those 34 litters to a painful congenital disease. But its ok cus he is BEST of breed :no1:


I thought it was brilliant that she was so chuffed at her success and ready to brag, but was totally caught out by the reporter and lied through her teeth - I bet that has totally messed up her puppy selling! And I'm not one bit sorry about that!!!


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## bassy 1019 (Sep 26, 2006)

*dogs*

this is what u get when u mess with nature, all pedigree dogs have things wrong with them, the crosbreds, eg jackrussels, r in fact very healthy.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I would have to disagree with this - not all dog breeds have been messed with to the extent of the breeds featured in that programme. Some of the breeds look exactly like they looked 100 years ago and do not suffer from inherited faults.

Jack Russells are now a recognised breed and as such how do you know they aren't being messed with and then their problems will appear in jack russell crosses?


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Thank God for the odd breeder who can see the full picture I say.

I know that the Utonagan Society was founded by breeders who did not agree with the practices of Northern Inuit breeders who were inbreeding for speed.

Sadly, very sadly, the Utonagan breed was also spoiled by certain breeders jumping on the bandwagon and crossing in things like rough collies. The breed is about 25 years old and you can see if you go on some breeders websites, their pack look like a bunch of crossbreeds, all totally different.

The breed standard is exactly the same as that of a timber wolf. Achieved by using wolves in the early days crossed with malamutes, husky and GSD. They were at the point of no longer needing these breeds but short sighted individuals spoiled 25 years of hard work.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Sadly this is what happens when a new breed appears! People jump on the bandwagon and because they are new and therefore still quite rare the price is high so money can be made and that brings unscrupulous breeders rushing in to make money!!!

It happens in the cat world too when new breeds are imported - the price goes sky high compared to other pedigree cats.


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## coopere (Aug 6, 2008)

If anyone is interested in signing a petition TV vet Joe Inglis who appeared on the programme has set one up. This is the link.
Petition-them.com


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## DazedLewis (Aug 21, 2008)

I thoguht it was disgraceful, all of those smug KC people who are actually just sick b*****ds and all the care about is winning, and the culling of the ridgebacks without ridges clause was absolutely terrible. I will never buy a KC registered puppy in my life.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

shell2909 said:


> i cant believe what that woman said about the ridge backs no line down the middle, kill it off then-utterly disgusting :censor:


Agree 100% to put a heathly pup down is just wrong and madness :bash: first you could just sell a ridgeless as a family pet.But better than that the KC could sort it in a heart beat.Like if you have wire & smooth fox terriers.Long & smooth & wire dachshunds.Wire & smooth jack russel's that are all accepted by KC.Just slightly chance the name of the Rhodesian's.To Rhodesian lion hound/Rhodesian hound'etc now such a name dosen't state the word *RIIDGEBACK* so now you can breed from both coat types.Just start putting in books that the Rhodesian loin hound/Rhodesian hound comes in two coats both ridgeback and smoothback.Done no excuse to put heathly dogs down.I doutb very much anyway that the African loin hunters of old times killed a dog just coz it never had a ridgeback they would have viewed it as if it can help kill lion it's a good dog.And if it not good at it given job the lion will get it.Ridge or no ridge.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Meny of the kc dog breeder need to get there head out there A$$ and realize that outbreeding even out of breeds is't a bad thing.All dogs are the same species and breed are just a look/appearance.Cross breeding domestic dogs is NOT hybridizing there the same speices is just breeding fore a sertion look and job.And half the breed of today have evolved past what they use to look like.Now if a animal evolved past what it direct ancestor look like in nature it become a new species.So based on that the pug for example of today is not a pug it's evolved into a new breed.A lot of the 50/50 cross's that have become common over the pasted couple of years look more like the pure breeds should look than to today models.I think the 50/50 breeds should be use to sort breeds out they should be use as stud'etc as fixers.Look how much the 50/50 cross's below have been set back to oldschool that just 1 generation breeding.So being there cross from two breed they could be use on booth breeds that the cross fixer is a cross of.So breeding a fixer50% to a pug100% will result in a F1 75%pug-25%chi given new gene new blood to the line.Note the muzzel of the 50/50 fixer in the pug one.

LEFT-Old time.RIGHT-Modern.BOTTOM-50/50 cross.


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## Rain (Oct 9, 2007)

Pouchie said:


> Thank God for the odd breeder who can see the full picture I say.
> 
> I know that the Utonagan Society was founded by breeders who did not agree with the practices of Northern Inuit breeders who were inbreeding for speed.
> 
> ...


Utonagans FTW 

I know it's from Wiki, and thus not gospel, but;
For a brief period during the Klondike Gold Rush of 1896, the Malamute and other sled dogs became extremely valuable to recently landed prospectors and settlers, and were frequently crossbred with imported breeds. This was often an attempt to improve the type, or to make up for how few true Malamutes were up for sale. This seems to have had no long standing effect on the modern Malamute, and recent DNA analysis shows that Malamutes are one of the oldest breeds of dog, genetically distinct from other dog breeds.

Some pedigrees are so inbred that they cause problems, others thankfully have societys who care more about the animals health than breeding "the perfect standard". I think that the hips and eye tests on mals, huskys and GSDs are brilliant, and that ALL breeds need their own standards that should be met before breeding including a "rule" against inbreeding a set amount of generations.


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## gwinni (Oct 8, 2007)

I got to watch it tonight as it wasn't on here the other night. The bit that annoyed me MOST (as a fair bit annoyed me) was the kennel club guy saying they didn't want to loose breeders, well i'm sorry mate but in my mind the kennel club have the power to change the breed standards so that healthier dogs are bred from and not freaks of nature! But like he said they don't want to loose breeders, aw poor wee shame, :censor: the breeders if they don't like it they can sodding lump it, at least then the breeders who want to help the breeds, can breed better dogs! Most dogs were meant to have a job and be able to do a full days work the ones bred for showing look like they would drop down dead!
Gazz those photo's are :no1: the crosses look so much better! I'd rather the old style dogs or the crosses!


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

gazz said:


> Meny of the kc dog breeder need to get there head out there A$$ and realize that outbreeding even out of breeds is't a bad thing.All dogs are the same species and breed are just a look/appearance.Cross breeding domestic dogs is NOT hybridizing there the same speices is just breeding fore a sertion look and job.And half the breed of today have evolved past what they use to look like.Now if a animal evolved past what it direct ancestor look like in nature it become a new species.So based on that the pug for example of today is not a pug it's evolved into a new breed.A lot of the 50/50 cross's that have become common over the pasted couple of years look more like the pure breeds should look than to today models.I think the 50/50 breeds should be use to sort breeds out they should be use as stud'etc as fixers.Look how much the 50/50 cross's below have been set back to oldschool that just 1 generation breeding.So being there cross from two breed they could be use on booth breeds that the cross fixer is a cross of.So breeding a fixer50% to a pug100% will result in a F1 75%pug-25%chi given new gene new blood to the line.Note the muzzel of the 50/50 fixer in the pug one.
> 
> LEFT-Old time.RIGHT-Modern.BOTTOM-50/50 cross.


 
Thanks so much for taking the time to post the pics. They are fantastic and I 150% agree with you. Can't see it happening until it is the last resort and breeders have no other choice which will be years away.

LOL Rain what does Utonagans FTW mean? :blush: I'm not too good with abbreviations lol


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## bordercreek (Aug 22, 2008)

Pouchie said:


> And that stupid blonde bird with the cavalier buzzin cus she just won a pretty rosette??? Never mind her congenitally diseased dog had fathered 34 litters and doomed those 34 litters to a painful congenital disease. But its ok cus he is BEST of breed :no1:


I quite agree, makes me ashamed to say I show and breed the occaional litter, but I must hasten to add, it is unfair to tar everyone with the same brush , there are also alot of good breeders.

I follow all health checks on any of mine , we also DNA test to check if they are carriers.

My dogs are my babies and I love them dearly, I was brought up within the showing world and know all to well there are many unscrupulous people out there, as there are in many other hobbies, I stopped showing for many years and went into competative obedience and working trials, but started to show my collies again a few years ago.I am proud of my dogs and enjoy getting them ready and competing, but my dogs health and well being comes first, they are my pets first and foremost.

I also agree it is totally disgusting to cull, heathy puppies, obviously, these people are not animal and dog lovers, but just in dogs, how they can justify this and still claim to love dogs is beyond me, just as breeding faults and making a breed unhealthy, for what a rossette.

Humans! we certainly have alot to answer for, give me my animals any day


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Exactly the point that I have been making. It's a long time since I bred a litter of dogs, but it is grossly unfair to tar everyone with the same brush!

It's the usual story, the minority spoil it for the majority.

There are a lot of caring breeders out there who breed good dogs who adhere to the breed standard without being "ultra", who know their pedigrees and know the genetic faults in their breed and are breeding conscientiously to breed out those faults.

It's the unscrupulous few who are only in it to make money and don't care about the dogs that are creating the poor dogs featured in that programme.


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## gnipper (Feb 13, 2007)

gazz said:


> Meny of the kc dog breeder need to get there head out there A$$ and realize that outbreeding even out of breeds is't a bad thing.All dogs are the same species and breed are just a look/appearance.Cross breeding domestic dogs is NOT hybridizing there the same speices is just breeding fore a sertion look and job.And half the breed of today have evolved past what they use to look like.Now if a animal evolved past what it direct ancestor look like in nature it become a new species.So based on that the pug for example of today is not a pug it's evolved into a new breed.A lot of the 50/50 cross's that have become common over the pasted couple of years look more like the pure breeds should look than to today models.I think the 50/50 breeds should be use to sort breeds out they should be use as stud'etc as fixers.Look how much the 50/50 cross's below have been set back to oldschool that just 1 generation breeding.So being there cross from two breed they could be use on booth breeds that the cross fixer is a cross of.So breeding a fixer50% to a pug100% will result in a F1 75%pug-25%chi given new gene new blood to the line.Note the muzzel of the 50/50 fixer in the pug one.
> 
> LEFT-Old time.RIGHT-Modern.BOTTOM-50/50 cross.


Although I woudn't own any of these breeds if I had to choose from these it would be the cross evey time. Look at the state of the modern 'pedigree' versions:censor:


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## baby_glass (Jul 3, 2007)

That programme certainly has made me think twice about pedigree dogs,i am finally in the position to get a GSD,have wanted one for an age now and situations of late have meant that i can now get one but my mind is now thinking otherwise.Some of the people and their opinions in that programme were just dispicable!


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

baby_glass said:


> That programme certainly has made me think twice about pedigree dogs,i am finally in the position to get a GSD,have wanted one for an age now and situations of late have meant that i can now get one but my mind is now thinking otherwise.Some of the people and their opinions in that programme were just dispicable!


If you like the German shepherd look but the back leg thing put you off go for a German shepherd/Belgian shepherd cross.Maybe even a pure Belgian shepherd they look to stand well on there back legs.

German/Belgian 50/50 cross.Stands nice a high in the back legs.









Belgian shepherd.Stands nice and hight in the back legs.









Modern German shepherd.Bad back legs:bash:.









According to this print below.Where the original painting was done in 1911.Of a German shepherd(left) and a Belgian shepherd(right).Dose that german shepherds back legs look anything like the modern ones to anyone ??.I DON'T THINK SO! yet the breeeder say that the sloped stance is of the breed ??.So why on earth are KC letting it happen ??. 










IMO they should breed the German shepherd to the Belgian shepherd to get the back half nice and high again like the German/Belgian cross.

So maybe go for a German/Belgian cross or a pure Belgian shepherd.


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## bordercreek (Aug 22, 2008)

I do agree with what you say, people have ruined SOME ,what used to be lovely breeds,but not all, it is IMO wrong to tar everyone with the same brush and then to defend people who are breeding cross breeds, one must ask why first, why are they breeding cross breeds,and I am sure the answer will not be to save each of the breeds in question! many are designer dogs aimed again to please the eye, or so one can say they have something different, and I would guess to line ones pockets with great price tags attached, often costing more than the pedigree dogs, and are these breeders following other health testing on each individual breed,which responsible breeders would carry out.
I own BC's and follow all testing for our breed, blood samples are taken and sent to optigen, so making me aware not just if my dog as a health issue, but also if he/she is a carrier, it is alright 2 dogs being clear themselves with a normal routine test, but if they are both carriers of a certain disease it could still be passed on to offspring.
Personaly I think it comes down to the same old thing, the route of all evil MONEY, and I am sorry to say that while ever there is demand, there will be supply at whatever cost! It is not just KC registerd dogs that suffer, people crossing breeds to make designer dogs with large price tags, others who breed teacup puppies again large price tags, so what does it tell us...........MONEY or thats what it tells me. 
Labradoodles, cockerdoodles there are more and more doodles everyweek! everyone jumping on the band wagon and are these breeders following tests for each of the breeds, I would cerainly like to know.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Personally? I doubt it!


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## bordercreek (Aug 22, 2008)

Yes me too!
It so upsets me to think that I could be classed like some of these people,just because I breed and show my dogs, I would NEVER contribute to bringing health problems to my dogs or any animal, over the years I have rescued or helped with rescues, including puppy farms, battery hens, all from my own pocket, I love all my animals and devote all of my time to them and their well being.
It is terrible, I do agree and I do so feel for the poor dogs, and I cannot believe that anyone would breed from a dog that had not been clear of an health test, unbelievable really, these people are cruel and evil and should not be allowed to keep any animals!


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Ive just watched this on i player and have to say watching that boxer fitting brought tears to my eyes.
As for the opinions of the breeders on that show well they are the ones that need putting down as well as the head of the kennel club.
I thought it was a shock the first time i steped in to the show ring but seeing those GSD's made me feel sick those poor babies how the hell can a judge think it is ok for a dog to walk that way and its an unlevel top line if ive ever seen one!
Grrr i want to give them a bloody good slap.

Dont get me wrong i own a KC reg dog health tested parents nope because the health test wasnt available when her parents were bred well the HC was and she is clear but the L2 wasnt as its a relitively new test.
But i would work my backside off to find her the perfect health tested stud would it have to meet the breed standard well actually id prefer it not to.
Id rather it correct the minor faults my dog has, ie: she has a shorter snout than the way they were meant to look she could do withh longer legs and a wider rib cage.

She how ever meets the perfect KC breed standard and has been placed many times at breed shows.
Would i use a show dog as a stud nope not a chance, would i use a dog who is in her 5 generation pedigree nope nor would i use one that was related to those dogs........
Hard to find yes impossible no.
Would i charge stupid prices for any pups she produces lol i wish.....

After rambling a lil let me get back to the poor pug with the kinked spine.
Would we as reptile keepers EVER breed from a kinked back snake, i woul hope not so why is it not looked down upon to breed from a kinked back pug by the breeders that have made the breed what they are 

As for the cavs  what is there to say apart from the fact i hope the program was watched by 1000's of KC breeders across the uk and that they also shed some tears when they realised what they have done to the breeds they own and love (or not so in some cases)
And if they didnt manage to see it i hope its talked about in 100's of breed club meetings shows and day events for years to come, i also hope its talked about on some of the forums we know these clubs use.
If not get posting dog lovers the species seems to need every bit of help it can get


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

bordercreek said:


> I do agree with what you say, people have ruined SOME ,what used to be lovely breeds,but not all, it is IMO wrong to tar everyone with the same brush and then to defend people who are breeding cross breeds.
> 
> I own BC's


BC's ? Is that Border collies ??.

I'm not bigging up the people that breed cross's for just the money.I'm more on the cross's helping to sort out breed that have moved pasted what they use to look like.So throwing some out side blood from a nother breed in the works could help breeds with strutural issure'etc as they never use to look that way so the old look the real look is already lost anyway.I'm taring bigwig breeders that have the influance but sit back a let thing remain.Like that pekingese that won crufs ?.That dog should have been trated ofcorse but then it should have been castated and not entered in crufs.As it's a heath issue that can get pasted on to it's offspring deffo if there dam are really relateed.Hiding a problem dosen't make it go away.


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

i have always been anti KC.
their whole view on putting a german shepherd to sleep because it ears are not the right shap or they flop over..........
what the f:censor:k is wrong with them.
they state they are dog lovers......that isnt love in any form im aware of.
the KC are like the dog fanciers nazis...everything must be perfect and not a hair out of place..we dont care if the inbreeding has done permanent damage to the breed that can never be reversed.
the yorkshire terrier never used to be such a small delicate thing it used to be a working dog that could hunt down rabbit holes and kill rats.....
nowadays the rat has a far better chance against that dog.

i think that the KC should be disbanded along with major shows like crufts that justify the cruelty that is done so people can win rosets.
im sorry if i may be offending people that show their dogs but i stand by the fact that its an owners vanity that is responsible for this.


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## bordercreek (Aug 22, 2008)

Here, here I quite agree, anyone who could have anything PTS that is healthy cannot be an animal lover. 
Yes Gazz I mean Border collies, and they are all healthy and happy, i work my dogs besides show,showing for me, is not the winning, that is an added bonus, its the getting them ready, looking how lovely they are and feeling proud of my guys, but saying that I think they are beautiful when the are filthy, after a long walk., or when they have rolled in something quite discusting as they sometimes love to do! lol.
I only attend the odd show, as I must admit, alot of the people who show IMO are up their own A***rs a right snooty lot, that think because they parade around a show ring gives them some rights to do as they please, and we should all bow down to them like some sort of god!!
Its all a farse really, as its always the same ones that get the big wins, but as I say its not the winning for me.


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## Bigjim (Feb 26, 2008)

Pliskens_Chains said:


> i think that the KC should be disbanded along with major shows like crufts that justify the cruelty that is done so people can win rosets.
> im sorry if i may be offending people that show their dogs but i stand by the fact that its an owners vanity that is responsible for this.


Trouble is, you close the KC down or tighten up the rules about showing, and the owners will go else where or 'underground'. The owners have to take responsibility.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I think the gist of the matter with most working breeds is comparing the working dog with the show dog. Compare any field trial champion gundog against a show champion gundog and you will see the difference, similarly with pastoral etc etc. The dog that has been bred for the showring would mostly be unable to work in the conditions most of those dogs work in, not just because of conformation, but, with the longer coated dogs because of coat.

So if you want that breed, go buy one from a working line, not a show line.

Sadly with a lot of breeds like bulldogs and yorkies, there aren't any working dogs of those breeds any more, so all you can buy is from show bred dogs.


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

i think that the KC should be disbanded along with major shows like crufts that justify the cruelty that is done so people can win rosets.
im sorry if i may be offending people that show their dogs but i stand by the fact that its an owners vanity that is responsible for this.[/quote]

As a Jewish dog breeder and exhibitor I am deeply offended by the Nazi referrence made by Ms Harrison who herself is a dog breeder and in receipt of KC Charitable Trust donations. The program showed nothing of the work we are and have been doing for many years to eliminate health issues within dogs. My background is in working, obedience and showing, I've trained and worked Springers to the gun as well as shown them, to be a champion in the show ring many breeds have to also be a champion in field trials so your show dog is more than capable of doing a days work!

All the DNA work being paid for by dog breeders via the KC and our own monies to the labs who are doing the research is also being used for HUMAN benefit. I have collected samples for various diseases for places such as Penn Uni in the states, no mention of schipperkes being involved in the research that has now lead to a proven DNA test for MPS IIIB the worst form of a Lysomal storage disease that is fatal in animals and humans by the Prof eh. AS a recessive mutation with varying symptoms due to the area's of the brain that are atrophied imagine being the parent of a child who is going to die with similar symptoms to dementia risking another child was too much as many took years to diagnose symptomatically. We are all working collecting samples for places like Helsinki research labs to map all forms of Epilepsy again this will pass to the human population to at least give us all a chance of doing something to eliminate the ones that are genetic based. Hell I've got a weekend in October with 2 breeders and a member of their research team coming over for our Club show to collect samples of DNA, pedigree's, chat with breeders etc 

but hey YOU CARRY ON CALLING ME A NAZI for my hobby I only lost a few relatives to them, people I've never had the chance to meet or know what does it matter!:devil::censor:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Schip said:


> The program showed nothing of the work we are and have been doing for many years to eliminate health issues within dogs. My background is in working, obedience and showing, I've trained and worked Springers to the gun as well as shown them, to be a champion in the show ring many breeds have to also be a champion in field trials so your show dog is more than capable of doing a days work!
> 
> All the DNA work being paid for by dog breeders via the KC and our own monies to the labs who are doing the research is also being used for HUMAN benefit. I have collected samples for various diseases for places such as Penn Uni in the states, no mention of schipperkes being involved in the research that has now lead to a proven DNA test for MPS IIIB the worst form of a Lysomal storage disease that is fatal in animals and humans by the Prof eh. AS a recessive mutation with varying symptoms due to the area's of the brain that are atrophied imagine being the parent of a child who is going to die with similar symptoms to dementia risking another child was too much as many took years to diagnose symptomatically. We are all working collecting samples for places like Helsinki research labs to map all forms of Epilepsy again this will pass to the human population to at least give us all a chance of doing something to eliminate the ones that are genetic based. Hell I've got a weekend in October with 2 breeders and a member of their research team coming over for our Club show to collect samples of DNA, pedigree's, chat with breeders etc


I think it's fair to say that, like all TV documentaries they have concentrated on the worst of the worst for sensationalism. As has been said a few times throughout this thread, there are loads of breeds out there which haven't been 'ultrafied' or exaggerated compared to how the breed looked years ago.

You are saying that to be a champion in the show ring many breeds have to also be a champion in field trials so your show dog is more than capable of doing a days work, but I did say 'mostly' - I never said all working breeds. I'd like to see a show bred bearded collie spend all day out in the hill herding sheep, his coat would be a problem to him especially on a really hot or really wet day.


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## BecciBoo (Aug 31, 2007)

I've only just watched this...as I pretty much knew the gist of what would be said. Was funny to see a vet I work with every day on there :lol2:

I have been against the KC and breed standards since I started college when I was 19 and we studied about breed development and welfare. Now this subject is my favourite to teach...

There is always a pro group and a against group when it comes to any debate, and this program was very very against...but I had to agree with everything that was said. I work in a veterinary hospital and when a new case comes into the wards you can pretty much work out whats wrong with it just from its breed...which is so very sad. On chemotherapy days we have kennels full of boxers. Westies are always for derm, or have addisons, Labs for orthopaedics. I've seen puppies dying because they are so inbred, and its heart breaking...we actually see very few cross breeds 

I don't like the kennel club because of the 'top' people you see on that program, just as I don't like top dog breeders that think its acceptable to put a healthy puppy to sleep.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

bordercreek said:


> Yes Gazz I mean Border collies, and they are all healthy and happy.


Ofcourse there heathly there border collies one of the few pure breed that are good.And if there workers this is also the main reason why there still one of the good pure breeds and why yours are also happy : victory: a working border is a happy border.The border collie was not a breed i was refering to that needs sorting out.As they are still used today to the max.So there genetics and breed style are still teated and fixed.They look just the same today as they looked in old time pretty much no differance at all that coz there genetics work.Take for example a show British bulldog and if you was to use it for it's breed purposs it wouldn't stand a chance the bull would just trampel it.I love Border collies but i live in a envierment where i can't have one.Due to there brians there to smart to live in a poky small house with small garden.There brians need ticcing over and if you can't do this IMO a border is not the dog for you. 

Old time Border collie.









Modern Border collie.










The build of the two from differant timelines are the same.Mainly due to though they are shown this breed is also still worked in meny ways.And it is the line of if it is't broke don't change it.And with the Boder they haven't and thats good for the breed.


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## bordercreek (Aug 22, 2008)

Thanks for that Gazz, they are a fabulous breed or at least i think so, but you are quite right they do need activity and stimulation, although there are differences again with the working collies and show type, IMO the show type do not have the higher energy levels of the working lines and do tend to make better pets, but again they do need stimulation and the correct training as youngsters, you do get out of a dog what you put in initialy.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Precisely the point I was making earlier about some working dogs and show dogs!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I know a few GSD breeders of German Lines and have NEVER heard of anyone Putting To Sleep any because of ears, colour or anything else that wasnt a serious health problem to the dog itself.Bent/Soft Ears are not a problem. Some breeders sometimes felt the ears to help strengthen them untill they can stand up on there own but to be honest they dont usually bother and sell as pet puppys. Most GSD breeders arent as bad as the program portrayed


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Neither have I, as with most pedigree breeders, the puppies/kittens that don't fit the standard are sold as pets - it's only over-the-tops idiots like that R.Ridgeback breeder who wants perfectly healthy puppies put to sleep because they don't fit the standard.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

My Auntie breeds Ridgebacks and has top show winning lines but her ridgeless pups are sold as pets:flrt: not killed as advised :devil:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

animal addict said:


> is anyone watching this ? I am utterly utterly disgusted at these ridiculous owners who keep their stupidly ill dogs alive at whatever cost - the little spaniel who had the back half of its skull removed to allow its brain to work properly coz it was so inter bred its skull was too small - its died a few days later - thy said on the programme that the dogs were usually in pain - what sick idiot does this to a beloved pet - and those people who kept that boxer with severe epilepsy?? I'm really sorry if this offends but I dont care - these people should be shot - what sort of a life does that dog have??? I have a boxer cross breed and if my dog EVER showed such symptoms I'm afraid that she would have to be put to sleep coz in my opinion that would be the kindest thing to do and not let them suffer and be in such pain they are rolling around on the floor whimpering - disgusting and I am so upset by this programme!!!


 I had a dog with severe e[ilepsy. He was on the same epilepsy meds that human epileptics took. Are you saying that all less than perfect animals should be killed? Dogs or humans in a fit don't feel a thing and are not aware of anything and aren't in pain.
Perhaps you also fel that epileptic children or sick and disabled children should be put to sleep too?
What makes me sick is people who will kill an animal just because it is inconvenient or costs money to have treated or is less than perfect like those breeders who kill ridgebacks with no ridge, white boxers and other less than perfect dogs.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Katiexx said:


> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/off-topic-chat/171147-pedigree-dogs-problems.html Thread here hun. that boxer was shocking. What makes them keep it alive in that state?


 
Yeah!! Flipping epileptics should all be killed eh? Anyone on here suffer from epilepsy?


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## bordercreek (Aug 22, 2008)

I dont suppose all ridgeback breeders do, but the person on TV certainly did she openly admitted it! evil woman, but again as I have said before, not everyone would do this terrible thing.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

labmad said:


> An eye opener for many I guess, and for some confirmation of what they already suspected..........a very SAD fact, brought a tear to my eye watching the poor boxer which was epileptic, and the noise it was making was dredful, clearly in discomfort and probably pain.......
> ?


 It may have been making noises but I can assure you it wasn't in any pain or discomfort. It was merely having a fit, as my Kip used to. He occasionally made noises, often peed himself too and when he came out of it, he wagged his tail happily at me, had a good drink and something to eat. They are not aware of anything when they have a fit and are not in pain.Ask someone with epilepsy what they are aware of when they are fitting and they'll tell you. Ask them too if they think they would be better off dead because they have epilepsy. They'll probably tell you something then too and the second word might be "off" :lol2:


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## bordercreek (Aug 22, 2008)

I too have had a BC with severe epilepsy, unfortunatley, drugs could not control, he was so heavily drugged, it affected his quality of life, he went into to status and sadly died, but after much thought and a great expense for treatment to try and help my beloved boy, I think I would have had him PTS if he had not have died,I spent the last few weeks of his life travelling up and down motorways, seeing specialists, including Pip Bardell an authority in this field, I paid £1,000 for a CAT scan, to no avail, it is never an easy decision to let go, but unlike humans, we dont have to let our precious animals suffer,if their illness can be controled to a degree that means they still have a good quality of life, that is wonderful, but sadly it is not always the case.


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## Fuzzball (May 16, 2007)

My Yogi has epilepsy, anyone thinking its cruel to keep him and other dogs with epilepsy alive is more than welcome to come and meet him.
Yes its horrible watching him fitting but he doesnt have a clue what has happened to him, and now we know the full story about it (i.e he is light and touch sensitive during a fit, allergic to beef) his fits are becoming less and less often.


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## bordercreek (Aug 22, 2008)

It is true, that whilst they are having fits they are not aware of anything at all, problem with my boy was that he had to be on a very large dose of epilease, he was first started on Phenobarbital, he was basically not with us.
Also if a dog seizures last a great length of time there is a chance ,they could have brain damage.
Anyone interested here is a link to further info on epilepsy
Understanding Epilepsy


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## bordercreek (Aug 22, 2008)

this was my Brigg, still miss him sooo much, I would have sold my soul to save him.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

bordercreek said:


> It is true, that whilst they are having fits they are not aware of anything at all, problem with my boy was that he had to be on a very large dose of epilease, he was first started on Phenobarbital, he was basically not with us.
> Also if a dog seizures last a great length of time there is a chance ,they could have brain damage.
> Anyone interested here is a link to further info on epilepsy
> Understanding Epilepsy


My Kip (border collie X) had 5 brilliant years alive with me even though he had bad epeilepsy. It was managed mostly by phenobarbitone and by watching out for triggers like hot weather, him not drinking enough etc. In the end, he died aged only 5 years after a massive fit which couldn't be stopped, caused him to have a stroke. He was put to sleep to save further suffering at that point once it was determined that although he was fully aware, he had suffered brain damage. I held him in my arms as he was put to sleep. He was my soulmate. Should I have put him to sleep when he had his first fit aged only a year old? I don't think so. He was a wonderful dog in all respects, he idolised me, wqs fit and active and more intelligent than any dog I have ever had. Sure he had the occasional fit, often at night on my bed (I had a rubber mattress cover on for when he fitted as he peed too) but mostly, he didn't fit. He had perhaps only one a month despite the meds every 4 hours on the dot. We had 5 brilliant years and I give thanks for those 5 years every time I think of my boy.I like to think that he would have valued the time we had together too. As it says on his headstone "he loved, and was loved, to the end". He knew I adored him. I know he knew.
I find it awful to see people advocate killing a dog simply because it has epilepsy because I know that Kip and I had 5 fantastic years together. He was with me all the time night and day and I wouldn't have missed it for the world.
Incidentally, my vet wrote out a private script for phenobarbitone which I had filled at Boots the chemists. I sat waiting and when it was ready the pharmacist called out "medicine for Kip Thompson". Yep, that was my boy,Kip Thompson. 
Here he is with 'night night teddy'. He also had 'shopping teddy' (for in the car) and just plain 'teddy' downstairs.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

bordercreek said:


> I would have sold my soul to save him.


 I know exactly how you feel. Had my vet said "I can save his life but you have to lose an eye" I would have asked "which eye do you want?"


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## bordercreek (Aug 22, 2008)

Bless him.........brings tears to my eyes and the thought of my beautiful boy who was only 18 months old.
I would not have a epileptic dog put to sleep, certainly not, but Brigg was not having the occasional fit and vets could not control them he just got worse and worse, he started with them at 6 month and 1 week old, is first one was on the evening of his first obedience show, where he won his novice class, he was a very special dog, they say HE takes the special ones! just wish he had given me more time with him.........


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

I wasn't advocating killing a dog because it has epilepsy Fenwoman. The dog shown had very severe epilepsy, the poor thing couldn't even walk up stairs and do the most basic of things..It's co-ordination was all over the show even when it wasn't fitting.. does that not suggest some form of brain damage or something untoward?

Also I still believe the cavalier, who was crying out in agony should have been put to sleep to prevent further suffering. His brain was to large for his skull and causing the poor mite excruciating pain. He was constantly screaming. How the owners let it go on so long I will never know. Am I out of order for wanting him to be put to sleep as well?

To me it's quality of life, if the dog has quality of life, then that's fine, but when that is taken away, to me that's unfair to keep them around for humans selfish means. Your dog and bordercreeks had a quality of life, some of the ones shown in this programme..simply put, did not..


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## bordercreek (Aug 22, 2008)

Katiexx said:


> To me it's quality of life, if the dog has quality of life, then that's fine, but when that is taken away, to me that's unfair to keep them around for humans selfish means. ..


I quite agree, but as I stated in an earlier post, I was starting to think along the lines of having my Brigg PTS, before he died, not an easy decision, but I felt is quality of life was deteriorating, a combination of high dossage of drugs and regular fits(lasting longer and longer) was affecting his state of mind, there was times when i dont think he even knew me, which was so very sad, I had struggled for twelve months to control them, but they just got worse and no one could help.


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

bordercreek said:


> I quite agree, but as I stated in an earlier post, I was starting to think along the lines of having my Brigg PTS, before he died, not an easy decision, but I felt is quality of life was deteriorating, a combination of high dossage of drugs and regular fits(lasting longer and longer) was affecting his state of mind, there was times when i dont think he even knew me, which was so very sad, I had struggled for twelve months to control them, but they just got worse and no one could help.


Sorry to hear that hun :grouphug:, It's such a hard decision to make, and i've been there recently. It's true what they say though, he takes the best.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

bordercreek said:


> I quite agree, but as I stated in an earlier post, I was starting to think along the lines of having my Brigg PTS, before he died, not an easy decision, but I felt is quality of life was deteriorating, a combination of high dossage of drugs and regular fits(lasting longer and longer) was affecting his state of mind, there was times when i dont think he even knew me, which was so very sad, I had struggled for twelve months to control them, but they just got worse and no one could help.


Sadly I think that's one of the hardest things about responsible pet ownership, regardless of the pet. We have a responsibility to them and part of that responsibility is to know when quantity is outweighing quality and then we give them our final gift - a pain free death.

I've been there with all but one of my own pets (he died at home from heart failure at age 3), but at least I know that I prevented any further suffering. It never gets any easier, but I'd rather take that choice than not.


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## bordercreek (Aug 22, 2008)

Thanks Katie


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## bordercreek (Aug 22, 2008)

feorag said:


> Sadly I think that's one of the hardest things about responsible pet ownership, regardless of the pet. We have a responsibility to them and part of that responsibility is to know when quantity is outweighing quality and then we give them our final gift - a pain free death.
> 
> .


Couldn't agree more, it is so hard to let go, but we shouldn't be selfish, we sometimes have to let go, however hard it is.
I


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Katiexx said:


> I wasn't advocating killing a dog because it has epilepsy Fenwoman. The dog shown had very severe epilepsy, the poor thing couldn't even walk up stairs and do the most basic of things..It's co-ordination was all over the show even when it wasn't fitting.. does that not suggest some form of brain damage or something untoward?


 How do you know what it was like when it wasn't fitting since they only showed it either in a fit, jhust going into a fit or just coming out of one? My Kip was exactly the same when going in or coming out of a fit. The programme wouldn't have been so sensational if they showed the boxer having a right old time of it playing with the other one, running on a beach, fetching his ball and behaving normally would it?



> Also I still believe the cavalier, who was crying out in agony should have been put to sleep to prevent further suffering. His brain was to large for his skull and causing the poor mite excruciating pain. He was constantly screaming. How the owners let it go on so long I will never know. Am I out of order for wanting him to be put to sleep as well?


 The tri coloured cavalier which you saw screaming was indeed put to sleep soon after the programme. I had seen the clip before on a cavalier website dedicated to the disease. Not all cases are quite so severe as that was.



> To me it's quality of life, if the dog has quality of life, then that's fine, but when that is taken away, to me that's unfair to keep them around for humans selfish means. Your dog and bordercreeks had a quality of life, some of the ones shown in this programme..simply put, did not..


 As I said before, apart from the cavalier, you cannot say what quality of life each featured dog had because you saw only a small snapshot showing the worst parts. Had you seen a video of my Kip having a fit and never knew anything else about him, no doubt you would have said he was better off dead.
Only an owner can judge when it's best to end their dogs life. My criteria has always been that when there are more bad hours than good ones or more bad days than good ones, it's time to say goodbye.
Luckily, most things can be managed. Even pain. My old giant schnauzer bitch had not only cancer but was riddled with arthritis for the last year of her life. When she was put onto rimadyl, she was like a new dog and woke up each morning with a joy of life in her eyes. When that light wasn't there any more, I knew it was time. If someone had told me I was being cruel keeping her alive with arthritis and cancer, that aged 12 she had had a long enough life, I would have spat in their eye. I too have arthritis and am in terrible pain without the painkillers, but am I ready to die? Hah!! Not by a long chalk. I've loads more folks to annoy yet before I kick the bucket.So 'Harley' had her painkillers for the last year and enjoyed life to the full. The day before she died, I have a photo of her surrounded by a litter of puppies, eating a massive fresh beef bone outside in the sunshine.
The pnly person to say that a dog should be put to sleep is the owner and on the advice of a qualified vet. 
As I said, you only saw a teeny weeny snapshot of the boxer fitting. Distressing to see if you've never seen it before, but honestly, when epileptic dogs aren't fitting, they are fine and happy.


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## Angel1mole (Jul 27, 2008)

I watched this on iPlayer, and cannot put into words the emotions it stirred, anger and disgust being foremost.

The KC and many 'breeders' have so much to answer for, and should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

The big issue that does not seem to have been touched on in this thread, is that the programme was made by the BBC, condemning the KC and breeders, but who is it that broadcasts 'Crufts' every year - the BBC - so the biggest and most famous dog show in the world, which 'promotes' the breed standards by the publicity is shown on the same channel............ double standards, hypocrisy, are a couple of the words that spring to mind........

We shall see, if the BBC air Crufts again, they should be inundated with complaints from all of us, and as many others that we can persuade.

The only way to stop this cruelty is to make it embarrassing for the 'people' who carry out these inhumane practices, by boycotting shows like Crufts, not airing it on national TV.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

bordercreek said:


> Couldn't agree more, it is so hard to let go, but we shouldn't be selfish, we sometimes have to let go, however hard it is.
> I


This may sound strange, but as I said earlier, the only pet I've had die at home was my Havana cat and I came home and found him dead at the bottom of the stairs. PM revealed heart failure (he'd been diagnosed about 6 weeks earlier with cardiomyopathy, but I must admit I thought he would live for a lot longer than that).

Now that crippled me, because I wasn't there, I don't know what happened - did he die in pain? If I'd been there and got him to a vet would he not have died (extremely doubtful, but we always hope)? I wasn't there to comfort him or help him, so I blamed myself and tortured myself for weeks about that!

I've now found that I prefer euthanasia. I take my animal to the vet or I have the vet to the house and they get a little sedative injection which causes them no fear cos they will have had loads of injections from the vet throughout their lives and they fall asleep in my arms and I know they died peacefully and I know I've saved them further pain and I did that because they loved me and I loved them.

Like Katie I was only there in March this year with my first born kitten, Leyla, who was 16½ and I can still remember every emotion I went through.


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

It wasn't when the dog was going into a fit that I was referring to. The dog was in the garden I think and couldn't even get up a step into the house. That to me in itself was quite upsetting. I agree the programme was very one sided, very biased, and made all breeders look like evil people who cared more about prizes than anything else. I know that's not the case, and what they showed was the minority. Doesn't make it any less upsetting though. 
In regards to arthritis i've suffered with it since I was about 1 year old...at the time they said it was growing pains and would be gone by the time I was 8. Then it was it would be gone by the time I was 18. Then they finally aknowledged that it was rheumatoid arthritis and not growing pains. It's been getting progressively worse since I was one. And painkillers don't really touch me, due to allergies i'm very very limited in what I can take. It's just something I have to deal with. Again if painkillers can help the animal that's great but if the animal is in pain even with the painkillers it's a different story.

It is something i've been curious about I admit. I presume animals are like humans in the sense that they can have allergies to painkillers? Never experienced it myself, just something I always wondered. Would it present in the same way it does humans?


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## diamondlil (May 7, 2008)

Thanks for the link to the program on i-player. Incredibly hard to watch, but a real eye-opener.


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## *burnleygirl* (Jun 26, 2008)

i was as utterly shocked by the fact the they put ridgeless puppies to sleep!!

I worked in Sweden for 2 weeks at a dog creche and the women there owned 2 ridgebacks, one had a perdect ridge (Rafiki) and Spooky the other one had a ridge that was a cockeyed and wasn't straight.Spooky was one of the nicest looking dogs I have ever met and one of the nicest personalities!
It said on that program about Sweden and their dogs. Over there it is rare to have their dogs neutered as it shows that you cannot handle your dog (i dont agree with this) dogs in Sweden are treasured whereas over here you find that people buy dogs just to look good and the dog isnt treated right. There are also not that many crossbreeds either. I worked with 40-50 dogs and there was 1 crossbreed.

I was in tears watching this programme but I am glad that the BBC showed it because people will be more aware!!

How shocking!


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

I have friends in Sweden, one of whom has 6 dogs that he has rehomed. And every one is a cross breed. Four of them are rottweiler x german shephards. Over there it seems a popular mix as they believe they make fantastic guard dogs and family pets. His boys are neutered the girls aren't though, but they're not allowed to have pups. All his dogs are rescues that were ill treated or abandoned. On the surface it might look like things are alot better over there, and maybe they are better than here, but it certainly isn't perfect, there are still idiots there who don't look after their animals properly.

I think a good point was raised earlier, the BBC showed this programme, yet they are the channel that host crufts...will they crack down? will they refuse to show it? Or will they show it as if the programme never happened? Will be very interesting to see.


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## ichis-mom (May 25, 2008)

*kids vs dogs epilepsy*



12kslr33 said:


> didnt watch it, but my concern and this is something that sickens me is that you would put the boxer down bcoz it has epilesy and fits, my brother who is 8 suffers from this but i wouldnt just put him down! i think some of you should think deeper and realise that humans also suffer from these also


The difference being with a child you can sit down and explain whats wrong and whats going to happen but you cant do that with a dog they prob have no idea whats going on is this right?


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## ichis-mom (May 25, 2008)

*if i was to get a dog*

a bit off topic tho but i always read the classifieds in my papers and have noticed the price of cross breeds going up and some are now as expensive as pedigrees the last paper i looked in there was labradoodles [Labrador cross poodle] and they where £550 what is going on in the dog world?


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Designer breeds. They're huge at the minute. To be honest i'm very sceptical of most of them though...yes some kennel club breeders may be shocking, and some designer dog breeders may be superb. But if I were to buy a dog i'd like the breeding history, parents records ets, any tests relevent to the breed in question done. Alot of 'designer dog' breeders don't do this unfortunately.


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## *burnleygirl* (Jun 26, 2008)

Katiexxx

I wasnt saying that it was perfect over there! Where in my post does it say that?

I was only saying that after working in a dog creche in Sweden and kennels in England I thought that Sweden was better at looking after their dogs!

That was all I was implying! I didnt say that there were no cross bred dogs I just said that I didnt see that many!


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## Bobbie (Jun 25, 2008)

does any one know when it is being repeated ?

i would like to see it..


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

I wasn't saying you did say it was perfect. Where did I say that? I explained how I had a few friends who live over there, so not in touristey type areas. Whom keep dogs, and the experience one of them has. Though all my friends over there who keep dogs tend to have at least one mongrel.


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Bobbie said:


> does any one know when it is being repeated ?
> 
> i would like to see it..



Wouldn't normally double post but here's a link to watch it online

BBC iPlayer - Pedigree Dogs Exposed


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## Bobbie (Jun 25, 2008)

Katiexx said:


> Wouldn't normally double post but here's a link to watch it online
> 
> BBC iPlayer - Pedigree Dogs Exposed


 
thank you..


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## djangel (Jan 26, 2007)

sorry didnt see this one and yes its bad i wont post more as you prob see my post


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## Staffslass (Jan 30, 2008)

*Sick dogs*

Sorry but YOU have made me so angry, To many people their dogs are their babys, this includes breeders, they are not all alike, to me your as good as saying if you had a child who had an illness you would put it down, I used to have a Saint Bernard, due to his stupid breeder he had epilepsy, we did everything for our dog, he was so loved we hated to think of him in pain so paid out fortunes for medication (As i would for my son who is also disabled) and sadly said goodbye when Hero needed it, Yes a lot of breeders do deserve to be tarred and feathered, but again the majority of breeders take a great deal of thought, care and love in their breeding program so please dont think they are all the same.
I do think more health checks should be made compulsary, more out crossing to bring in fresh genes, and DNA should be made compulsary as there are too many so called Champion bitches having pups registered to them and the said bitch never having had a litter, but again that goes against the grain and is indedd by some people who should be banned from breeding or keeping dogs.
Kind regards
Debra



animal addict said:


> is anyone watching this ? I am utterly utterly disgusted at these ridiculous owners who keep their stupidly ill dogs alive at whatever cost - the little spaniel who had the back half of its skull removed to allow its brain to work properly coz it was so inter bred its skull was too small - its died a few days later - thy said on the programme that the dogs were usually in pain - what sick idiot does this to a beloved pet - and those people who kept that boxer with severe epilepsy?? I'm really sorry if this offends but I dont care - these people should be shot - what sort of a life does that dog have??? I have a boxer cross breed and if my dog EVER showed such symptoms I'm afraid that she would have to be put to sleep coz in my opinion that would be the kindest thing to do and not let them suffer and be in such pain they are rolling around on the floor whimpering - disgusting and I am so upset by this programme!!!


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