# Rats, rats, rats!



## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Hello ratty people! 

I've recently been introduced to how awesome rats are... Jai's fault :whip:

But anyway! She's helped me loooooads and given me the link to the Fancy Rat forum which I'll look through later tonight probably 

Was just wondering if I could have some other input from other keepers too?

I've searched through the old threads and stuff but I can't get beyong page 5 for whatever reason... :hmm:

ANYWAY!

A few questions!


Sex preference? Good and bad, your favourite, different health risks, different needs...
Dietry needs from younger to older. Does the diet have to change? And how about supplements or vitamins? Anything other than citrus to AVOID that're REALLY bad?
What to do when it becomes hot, I've heard of pea dipping, but anything else?
Bedding, I've heard those card squares are good? Anything else other than that?
Toys/boredom busters! I know of ladders, tubes, rope, bridges, hiding food, etc... though, tea towels, a yes or a no? As someone said they can catch their feet in it or something.
Cages, can you please suggest a cage for up to five fully grown rats? And any good cages for smaller rats as I've been told they should go into something smaller before a huge cage.
Then if you have anything else to let me know, that'd be great! I'd love to hear about how you begin taming better and building confidence, also I've heard people teach them little tricks and things? 

So yeah, thanks for your help, I think they're lovely... AND, I have the room and funds 

I'd ideally love to start off with 3 or whatever sex, then add another 2 a few weeks/months down the line so that they can have a few more friends


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## lisadew24 (Jul 31, 2010)

Hi rats r brill, with feeding rats u need to pick a food with higher cooper levels 14mg be it a rat muesli, rat pellets or u can make ur own diet call the shunamite diet, I prefer male rats as they like to sit on ur lap or neck and lick ur ears and necks, my females liked to explore more so it's up to u, I had two females in a ferplast Jenny cage, don't get a cage with wire bottom as this can give bumble foot and a tank can give respiratory infects, I didn't use any wood shavings as pine can be toxic for rats. If I was u I would get only two just now just so u get to know what they r like then u can add more later. Good luck with ur rats they r great fun and I had one who when i let hime free run had a better recall than some dogs.


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

I take no responsibility whatsoever :whistling2:


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Anyone else? Useful links would be nice too!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Freakinfreak said:


> A few questions!
> 
> 
> Sex preference? Good and bad, your favourite, different health risks, different needs...
> ...


If you have any more specific questions, just shout, I could talk rats all day lol.



lisadew24 said:


> don't get a cage with wire bottom as this can give bumble foot and a tank can give respiratory infects, I didn't use any wood shavings as pine can be toxic for rats.


The bumblefoot myth still does the rounds, it's actually not true - wire bottoms dont cause it, staph infection does, and plastic shelves are no better. The main reason rats get bumblefoot is being overweight, getting pressure sores on their feet, then trailing through a dirty cage. Wire or plastic, makes no difference. Keep your rat at a healthy weight and clean out regularly, and like me - you might never see a bumblefoot 

Some shavings are better than others. I would never use pet shop shavings, they are small, fine and very very dusty, and often fragranced. If you go for a kiln baked larger shaving like Bedmax, you shouldnt have a problem.


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Woah, thank you for that! All very helpful 

The lumpy thing for the girls is the main thing putting me off of them. I think that alone has steered me more towards bucks if I'm being honest.

The Furet plus I'm assuming is this one...? It seems tiny! :gasp:
Furet Plus Ferret and Rat Cage by Ferplast | Pets at Home

This one is a small amount bigger, but the access looks a little dodgy?

Jenny Rat Cage by Ferplast | Pets at Home

Oh, a more specific question would be how to make them trust you. I've been told by the evil one who got me hooked that wearing an hold hoodie and allowing them to sit inside it is a good idea? Other than that, what sort of thing could I do? I wouldn't want them being scared of me for very long!


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Oh, and I know this sounds ridiculous, but can rats wear harness'? I'm only asking as I know that rabbits and ferrets can... was just thinking of them being able to go out in the garden when it's warmer. Or is that totally a stupid idea? :lol2:


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

Freakinfreak said:


> Oh, and I know this sounds ridiculous, but can rats wear harness'?


You can put them on them - which is always fun - and even more fun is 3 seconds later just watching them walk out of them   

Some of my boys are fine to come outside for a wander and will just ping back to me - many won't - mine are well trained  

You can also put the cage outside for a while - or cage lid on the grass ...


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

A lot of people buy a 'bonding pouch' which is basically a material bag on a long strap that you can put around your neck and carry the rats in - so you can talk to them and put your hand in and stroke them to help the bonding process.

Yes you can buy harnesses to fit rats - there are a few different kinds, this is one of them Superpet Pets International Comfort Harness&Leash Small: Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies

The jenny cage doesn't have coated bars and so will rust very quickly. I have a Tom Rat Cage for my 4 boys - it's very similar to both the Jenny and the Furet, but it comes with 3 shelves and tubing too Great Deals on Small Animal Cages at Zooplus: Tom Rat Cage incl. Accessories I bought mine from zooplus but through ebay, because they sell their returned or faulty ones on there, but they always tell you what the fault is. The one I bought was only missing a couple of shelf brackets and my husband just fashioned them for me, but it was only £75, so a good bargain.

If I had to fault it at all it would be that an open top like the Furet would be useful when doing my weekly thorough clean out to reach everything, but the door in the middle is big enough to reach so it's not a major problem.


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

JulieNoob said:


> You can put them on them - which is always fun - and even more fun is 3 seconds later just watching them walk out of them
> 
> Some of my boys are fine to come outside for a wander and will just ping back to me - many won't - mine are well trained
> 
> You can also put the cage outside for a while - or cage lid on the grass ...


Haha, I wasn't sure :razz: It sounds like a good idea to put them outside in the cage. Maybe I could fashion some kind of run thing or something!



feorag said:


> A lot of people buy a 'bonding pouch' which is basically a material bag on a long strap that you can put around your neck and carry the rats in - so you can talk to them and put your hand in and stroke them to help the bonding process.
> 
> Yes you can buy harnesses to fit rats - there are a few different kinds, this is one of them Superpet Pets International Comfort Harness&Leash Small: Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies
> 
> ...


Thouse pouches sound good, I might look around ebay and things to see! 

I just found this cage:
Ferplast Furet Cage Ferret Rat Small Pet Extra Large on eBay (end time 22-Apr-11 23:51:51 BST)

Would that be any good for a max of 5 or 6 bucks? Or too small? 
I like how large it is without looking ginormous! It's also got potential for loads of ropes and bridges and stuff 

Thanks for those links, I'll look at them in better detail later on when I have a bit more time


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

As I said, if you go to a good breeder, your babies shouldn't be shy or nervous, so you shouldn't need to do anything extraordinary to get them to trust you, because they will come out of their shells after the initial settling in. Even bombproof babies might (but certainly not always) be scared by the change of homes, but they shouldn't be nippy or nasty, they'll just spook easily and stay near the back of the cage for the first day or two. Trick is to start off as you mean to go along, dont fanny about with them, dont leave them a week to settle in (they'll only start to realise that it works for them, and wont come out at all!) - be firm but gentle and calm, no sudden moves or loud voices, go straight into the cage and pick them up. If you are nervous or flap about worrying about them biting you (which they shouldnt) they will read your body language and think there's something to be scared _of_. So go in calmly and firmly pick them up with no flapping in and out. A pocket/pouch is always a good idea, even for confident babies, as they can come in and out of it on your lap as they grow in confidence, or go to cuddle up and snooze in it, or stash their treats!

As for lumps, the biggest cause of them is obesity - if you keep your girls trim and give them a healthy diet (no nuggets!) then they might not get lumps at all. If they do, just make sure you have a rat savvy vet who has done lump removals before. You may choose to spay with their first lump as this is said to reduce the chance of recurral. Having said that, a spay is a major op, out of the two rats I've had to have spayed (due to unexplained bleeding/pyo) have both passed away, but I'm told this is not the norm. Either way, I'd be cautious unless you have a very very good vet.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Freakinfreak said:


> Thouse pouches sound good, I might look around ebay and things to see!
> 
> I just found this cage:
> Ferplast Furet Cage Ferret Rat Small Pet Extra Large on eBay (end time 22-Apr-11 23:51:51 BST)
> ...


Here's a link to a "cage calculator" - if you put in the dimensions of the cage you're thinking about buying it will tell you how many rats it will house. Fancy Rats | Information | | Cage Calculator

If you decide to go ahead with a bonding pouch I make them at a cost of £5 plus postage if you can't find a cheaper option elsewhere?


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

You dooo? *flutters eyelashes*

Any piccies?


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

feorag said:


> Here's a link to a "cage calculator" - if you put in the dimensions of the cage you're thinking about buying it will tell you how many rats it will house. Fancy Rats | Information | | Cage Calculator
> 
> If you decide to go ahead with a bonding pouch I make them at a cost of £5 plus postage if you can't find a cheaper option elsewhere?


Oooh! It will fit 9 rats with 2 cubic feet each  I think I'll be getting that one then!

Oh really? I'd love to see some pictures!


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## Rackie (Jan 30, 2011)

You're not *that* far away from me (I'm by J12 of the M4) if you ever wanna pop in and visit lots of rats, feel free :2thumb:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> You dooo? *flutters eyelashes*
> 
> Any piccies?


Flutter away :lol2:

Did you not see my reply to Kathy's request for someone who could make her a bonding pouch like a sort of haversack because of her neck problems?

I make square bottomed pouches, so they're not just 2 squares joined together, they kind of open out like a good carrier bag - if that makes sense. I haven't a photo of a bonding pouch - just made one for someone on here, but forgot to photograph it before I posted it off! :bash: 

This is one of my normal pouches,being modelled by Hamish and a bonding pouch would be just the same but with a shoulder/neck strap










And this is the smaller version for chipmunks/gliders etc

















These are some of my hammocks, which I sell for £3 plus postage. These are old photos and I've no more of the Sherpa fleece (which is the wooly ones) left, although if it was specifically needed then I would buy some more. And the other materials really depend on what I have in stock.


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Rackie said:


> You're not *that* far away from me (I'm by J12 of the M4) if you ever wanna pop in and visit lots of rats, feel free :2thumb:


Oooh, thanks! May very well take you up on that offer 


feorag said:


> Flutter away :lol2:
> 
> Did you not see my reply to Kathy's request for someone who could make her a bonding pouch like a sort of haversack because of her neck problems?
> 
> ...


They're lovely! And by square bottomed, do you mean like a cube but with no top to it? Do they come with straps on clibs or would I need to sew some on?

Oh, I also found this website:
Rat Cages : Ferplast Furet XL Cage Rat & Ferret Cage - Ferret / Rat - UK FREE DELIVERY : www.EquineCanineFeline.com the place to buy all your Pet Products, Horse Products and Pet Supplies online

It's a good price with free delivery, but has anyone had issues with them? I'm going to be putting another door on the back and maybe one at the side on the bottom so access isn't going to be a problem. What do you think?


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

They come with a loop to fix with your own hooks or clips. Some people use proper hammock clips, some use shower rings and some use giant paper clips, but I would need to know that before making a bag because if the webbing is very thick it won't go into a large paper clip, I'd have to use a finer type of webbing.

I bought some plastic hooks when I got my rats, (you can see them on the back hammock of this photograph, but although I'm still using them, the ring that slipped over the peg to lock it has broken off on more than half of them. So now I use the proper metal hammock clips, which are at the front of the picture.

I've also just been experimenting with a 3 tier, non-stitched rat hammock and my rats love them!! They carry cardboard squares and shredded paper into it and build a nest inside it and these are the only hammocks that they've never chewed. Because these are joined by strips of fleece they work really well with giant paper clips.










This is the bottom layer










And this is the second layer (middle)










That cage looks like a good price deal! :2thumb:


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

feorag said:


> They come with a loop to fix with your own hooks or clips. Some people use proper hammock clips, some use shower rings and some use giant paper clips, but I would need to know that before making a bag because if the webbing is very thick it won't go into a large paper clip, I'd have to use a finer type of webbing.
> 
> I bought some plastic hooks when I got my rats, (you can see them on the back hammock of this photograph, but although I'm still using them, the ring that slipped over the peg to lock it has broken off on more than half of them. So now I use the proper metal hammock clips, which are at the front of the picture.
> 
> ...


They look lovely! So would large keyrings (the metal round bits) hold a hammock? As you can pretty much get them anywhere!

That one with the layers looks quite easy to make. Is there no stitching in them? It looks like you have a large rectangle for the bottom with a hole in each corner, then the square at the top has matching holes, and you've used a strip of fabric to knot the two holes together and hang it up? Is that the basic thought of it anyway? :lol2:

I really like the cage too, it has some layers but also looks like it's got a lot of room for toys and things 
My only worry is apparently unless you have long arms it's difficult to reach to the back, but then I'm sure it's not impossible to buy/make another door. I could put one on the side and the back then, so I have 3 access points on the bottom floor.
Do you know of anyone who has made a door for their cage? As I'd be worried about sharp edges and things.

Oh, and to anyone who can answer, would that cage be too big to start off with 3 young bucks? I suppose I could fashion something to sort of cut it in half horizontally until they get bigger if it is too big 

Eeee, I'm so excited :flrt:


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

excited?really? it doesnt show :whistling2:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Hate to be a downer, but the XL is probably the worst cage I've ever owned. Unless you're very slim and tall, you wont be able to reach the back of the cage, you have to totally collapse it if you want to wash it, as it wont go through doorways, plus it takes up the space of a large armchair.

Plus the price of them is ridiculous now, they used to be about £80-90, my second hand one was £40 if I remember correctly. I sold it within a couple of weeks because I hated it that much!

Eileen, I could really do with a pouch when I get paid next week. A nice sized one for two or three big bucks or a handful of kittens. I could really do with one and have struggled to find ones big enough - the ones in the pet shop would only fit one rat in, and I do PR at the YRC shows so need to be able to fit a pair in!


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> Hate to be a downer, but the XL is probably the worst cage I've ever owned. Unless you're very slim and tall, you wont be able to reach the back of the cage, you have to totally collapse it if you want to wash it, as it wont go through doorways, plus it takes up the space of a large armchair.
> 
> Plus the price of them is ridiculous now, they used to be about £80-90, my second hand one was £40 if I remember correctly. I sold it within a couple of weeks because I hated it that much!
> 
> Eileen, I could really do with a pouch when I get paid next week. A nice sized one for two or three big bucks or a handful of kittens. I could really do with one and have struggled to find ones big enough - the ones in the pet shop would only fit one rat in, and I do PR at the YRC shows so need to be able to fit a pair in!


Oh good :lol2:
So back to square one then... I've got these dimensions to play with: 


22 inches wide
36 inches long
50 inches high

56 cm wide
92 cm long
127+ cm high

1.8 ft wide
3 ft long
4.1+ ft high

They're all the same lol, just obvs in inches, cm and ft.

I saw this, but then the tray at the bottom doesn't slide out...
3 tier ferret rat chinchilla cage cages hutches on eBay (end time 29-Mar-11 21:21:37 BST)

EDIT:
Or, how about something like this?
http://www.cagesforcritters.co.uk/images/F13_228x400.jpg


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

feorag said:


> some use shower rings and some use giant paper clips,


Giant paper clips! Brilliant! I've been racking my brain trying to think of ways to attach my hammocks etc and for some reason this completely alluded me! 

Sorry -- I'm getting over excited!


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Haha, the excitement! :roll2:

I found this, I love it... slightly bigger than I wanted depth-wise... but LOOK AT IT!!!

X-Trail Rat Cage


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

The first link is a Critter 3, which is a love it or hate it cage. Good for if your rats chew, plus suitable for youngsters. Downsides are that the doors open inwards, so you need to take them off and put them back on the other way around. Plus the tray is very shallow, so light bedding (Aubiose, shavings, Megazorb or cat litter) may get kicked out easily. However they do fold flat so that's another plus.

The bottom one looks better to me (access and base wise), although if I remember correctly the bar spacing on that is too wide for girls or babies. If it's around an inch, then it's only suitable for larger adult males or very big does, anything under 400g or so will be able to squeeze out. I wouldn't mind one of those though.

Viovet has some nice cages too. Cheap!


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## Salamanda (May 28, 2008)

ami_j said:


> I take no responsibility whatsoever :whistling2:


:lol2: trust


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> The first link is a Critter 3, which is a love it or hate it cage. Good for if your rats chew, plus suitable for youngsters. Downsides are that the doors open inwards, so you need to take them off and put them back on the other way around. Plus the tray is very shallow, so light bedding (Aubiose, shavings, Megazorb or cat litter) may get kicked out easily. However they do fold flat so that's another plus.
> 
> The bottom one looks better to me (access and base wise), although if I remember correctly the bar spacing on that is too wide for girls or babies. If it's around an inch, then it's only suitable for larger adult males or very big does, anything under 400g or so will be able to squeeze out. I wouldn't mind one of those though.
> 
> Viovet has some nice cages too. Cheap!


Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, are they any other bad sides to this one? 









I was trying to think of how to prevent them from escaping if I got that cage. I've decided on bucks now I think...

I'm really not sure on the cage because I'm one of the people where it has to be something I like otherwise I'll spend forever wishing I didn't get it :lol2: I REALLY like the one above though. It's got great potential but then I don't fancy them escaping...


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I suppose you could chicken wire it, but it'll be ugly and scratchy and a pain in the bum to do lol.

You might be better off buying (or borrowing?) a temporary cage, something like a Critter 2 or Freddy (second hand).


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

To be honest I think they'll squeeze out of that one when they're babies, but maybe not when they're fully grown


Freakinfreak said:


> They look lovely! So would large keyrings (the metal round bits) hold a hammock? As you can pretty much get them anywhere!
> 
> That one with the layers looks quite easy to make. Is there no stitching in them? It looks like you have a large rectangle for the bottom with a hole in each corner, then the square at the top has matching holes, and you've used a strip of fabric to knot the two holes together and hang it up? Is that the basic thought of it anyway? :lol2:
> 
> ...


My Tom rat cage has a small door inside a bigger door and I can get my head and shoulders through the door if I was struggling to reach somewhere.

The one with the layers is just a large square of fleece, then a smaller square, maybe 2" smaller and another smaller one again. Then you just a corner of each together, make a hole and tie it up with fleece, or ribbon, whatever and then you do the same with the other 4 corners and hang it up! Easy peasy!

The only thing I would suggest is that you test the 'stretchiness' of the fleece, some fleece materials are very stretchy. The one I made mine out of was a cheap fleece blanket my friend bought I Primark for her cat, so I used it as an experiment and the only thing I don't like about it is that it stretches to much imao. So I will be making more but with my better quality fleeces that I have at home.



LisaLQ said:


> Eileen, I could really do with a pouch when I get paid next week. A nice sized one for two or three big bucks or a handful of kittens. I could really do with one and have struggled to find ones big enough - the ones in the pet shop would only fit one rat in, and I do PR at the YRC shows so need to be able to fit a pair in!


Yes I can make you whatever size you want - just give me the measurements of the pouch your looking for and I'll see what I can do. :2thumb:



pippainnit said:


> Giant paper clips! Brilliant! I've been racking my brain trying to think of ways to attach my hammocks etc and for some reason this completely alluded me!
> 
> Sorry -- I'm getting over excited!


:lol2: You see this forum is so useful, cos that's where I heard about the giant paper clips - after I'd bought my proper plastic ones!


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> I suppose you could chicken wire it, but it'll be ugly and scratchy and a pain in the bum to do lol.
> 
> You might be better off buying (or borrowing?) a temporary cage, something like a Critter 2 or Freddy (second hand).


Hmm... do you think I should invest in a smaller cage anyway? I'm just thinking that after I have space sorted (have a fish tank to get rid of and a unit to lose) I could have 2 cages so that when a rattie passes away () I'll have a smaller cage for new babies to go in?

Or would it be a waste of time getting something with huge bars as if I'm going to introduce them to each other it's better when they're all younger?

To sound like a total prat as I'm really not sure, what bar spacing is the best for young bucks? I'm hoping to get them at around 8 weeks so they'll be small but not TEENY tiny. I generally want a forever home for them, I don't want to have to shuffle them around in different size cages cos I've been too stupid to get good bar spacing :lol2:



feorag said:


> To be honest I think they'll squeeze out of that one when they're babies, but maybe not when they're fully grownMy Tom rat cage has a small door inside a bigger door and I can get my head and shoulders through the door if I was struggling to reach somewhere.
> 
> The one with the layers is just a large square of fleece, then a smaller square, maybe 2" smaller and another smaller one again. Then you just a corner of each together, make a hole and tie it up with fleece, or ribbon, whatever and then you do the same with the other 4 corners and hang it up! Easy peasy!
> 
> ...


Hmm, how many rats does that cage hold?

Haha, I can imagine a rat gingerly placing it's foot onto the hammock, thinking it was fine, stepping completely into it and ending up on the floor because it's stratched so far, hahaha!

Thanks for that, I might have a go at making myself a few hammocks whilst I'm waiting for funds to come in to enable me to get the cage and everything  I'd love one of your neck pouchy things though, maybe big enough to hold a fully grown buck, that way when they're smaller and I have a little'un in there, it can have a little wander around and when they're bigger I can have like a bag-dog for around the house... but rat-wise :lol2:


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## Rackie (Jan 30, 2011)

Freakinfreak said:


> Oooh, thanks! May very well take you up on that offer


Gimme a PM in good time and I might even make sure you can walk in the rat room, it's normally full of cages :lol:
I might even have some babies in two weeks' time :flrt:


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## kooky1 (Feb 22, 2010)

ive got 7 rats including 2 hairless girls and a siamese im adopting two boys tomorrow which will make 9 rats lol!! rats are great really intelligent and you can teach them tricks.my kids love them.and they dont really mind my 2 year getting a teeny bit rough with them.my girls love their hammocks but tend to all pile into one with each other,my 2 boys just eat theirs:gasp: good luck with your ratties: victory:


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Rackie said:


> Gimme a PM in good time and I might even make sure you can walk in the rat room, it's normally full of cages :lol:
> I might even have some babies in two weeks' time :flrt:


I might even have to steal one :whistling2: haha! I shall do, I'm not sure when but I'm sure at some point I can pop round to inspect  I can get cagey ideas too!

I'm hoping to have the cage sorted out soonish though, then get lots of bits and pieces until I see the ratties I'd like


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

kooky1 said:


> ive got 7 rats including 2 hairless girls and a siamese im adopting two boys tomorrow which will make 9 rats lol!! rats are great really intelligent and you can teach them tricks.my kids love them.and they dont really mind my 2 year getting a teeny bit rough with them.my girls love their hammocks but tend to all pile into one with each other,my 2 boys just eat theirs:gasp: good luck with your ratties: victory:


Thank you 
I'd love to see pictures of your cage(s)?


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

I have seven female rats and I wouldn't change them for anything. They all differ in age and 'type' and are all unique characters. Personally, I'm very much an advocate of females having had both sexes over the years. It's very much down to the individual owner but I love how lively and playful they are and, as a general rule, prefer that than the more docile, quieter bucks. Plus I have a major aversion to massive balls, especially those that are seemingly comparable to the size of a creature's head. Imagine that on a human! Ridiculous. 

But - I digress - as has been said many a time on here, there are always exceptions to the rule and I've known of bucks who are far more playful than some lazy does! 

Along with that, and, again, this is very much an opinion, but I tend to find girls have less of a 'musky' smell than most of the bucks I've had, or looked after over the years. 

My seven girls are Puppet, Nimh, Squillo, Hiccup, Margaret, Elliott and Dink. Doddery Margaret is the eldest at (approximately) 2.5 years and Elliott is the youngest addition that I acquired from the [email protected] adoption bit. She's been the most 'testing' due to being previously mistreated but has come on in leaps and bounds since being with the others. 

I keep them all in a Ferplast Duetto, which I got for the bargainous price of £20 from Ebay and I would definitely recommend second-hand where possible, but it's all luck of the draw really. My cage was an old aviary that I converted into one big cage and they absolutely love it. I tend to think that - with a group of settled, confident rats at least - the bigger the better and the size and capacity of a cage really does show in the general behaviour and playfulness of the rats. My lot are constantly fussing, forraging, playing, chasing, humping, pouncing, etc. and it's a delight to watch them have the space and facilities to be able to express this behaviour.

Here are some pics of my current set-up (bearing in mind, I tend to move things around and add bits and bobs every week or so to keep things a bit different and interesting): Hope they may give you a few ideas! (and apologies to those who've seen these pics umpteen times!) 










Upstairs bit: 










Downstairs bit: 










and a cheeky pic' of Puppet looking startled, hehe: 










As you can see - lots of tea towels; crimpled cardboard which they LOVE; twisty tube things (£1.50 in Tesco - brilliant things and far cheaper than in some pet shops where they're not as long); old guttering used as slides; old plastic storage box hung by the side that I fill with paper and hide treats in; parrot perch things; massive tubes from old carpet


----------



## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Freakinfreak said:


> Hello ratty people!
> 
> I've recently been introduced to how awesome rats are... Jai's fault :whip:
> 
> ...


 
Your not alone there actually, she has kinda persuaded me to look into it too, I may be getting some soon:2thumb:, one thing that put me off rats, mice and such was the sawdust and the smell of it I just cannot stand it:devil: then the nice Jai came along and told me that I don't have to use it at all lol so all these years I didnt know that:Na_Na_Na_Na: all amij's fault:whip:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I change my cage around slightly every week when I do my thorough clean out - I love watching the boys rushing around looking at where everything is and then frantically nest building.


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

I'm not liking all this blame Jai business. i think i know the real culprit....


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

ami_j said:


> I'm not liking all this blame Jai business. i think i know the real culprit....
> 
> image


Dont blame the cutie x lol it was Rackie too :devil::whip::lol2:


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## Rackie (Jan 30, 2011)

:lol: Ami we can share the blame! :2thumb:
But we all know rats are amazing pets!

If anyone's in need of some cages I might have a few spare that I will put up for sale soon. I'll have a rummage through the garage when I get home. Trouble with breeding rats for years is you amass some cages!


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

pippainnit said:


> I have seven female rats and I wouldn't change them for anything. They all differ in age and 'type' and are all unique characters. Personally, I'm very much an advocate of females having had both sexes over the years. It's very much down to the individual owner but I love how lively and playful they are and, as a general rule, prefer that than the more docile, quieter bucks. Plus I have a major aversion to massive balls, especially those that are seemingly comparable to the size of a creature's head. Imagine that on a human! Ridiculous.
> 
> But - I digress - as has been said many a time on here, there are always exceptions to the rule and I've known of bucks who are far more playful than some lazy does!
> 
> ...


Wow, thanks for all that info! 
I was leaning towards does first, as I don't fancy their balls and the musking and spraying that the bucks do... but, the whole lumpy part of the girls is what worried me, also that does are faster. I'd probably be more comfortable with a bunch of lazy bucks that have balls than a group of lumpy and speedy females...

But still, I'm not 100%!!

Your cage looks brilliant, I love it!! Unfortunately, something like that is far too deep for where I'm going to be putting the cage  I can fluxuate on height and length of the cage but so much the depth!

So teatowels are ok then? I think I just worried seeing as someone mentioned a while ago in an old thread that they can catch toes and feet on the threading?

Another things was about tubes, when I first get them I apparently shouldn't let them have anywhere to hide, so just focusing on hammocks and maybe some open top tubs with a bit of bedding in. So they can be comfy, but not run away everytime I go to get one. Is that right?



Salazare Slytherin said:


> Your not alone there actually, she has kinda persuaded me to look into it too, I may be getting some soon:2thumb:, one thing that put me off rats, mice and such was the sawdust and the smell of it I just cannot stand it:devil: then the nice Jai came along and told me that I don't have to use it at all lol so all these years I didnt know that:Na_Na_Na_Na: all amij's fault:whip:


I know! My Mum can shout at her, rather than me :lol2: although I wanted rats AGES ago before Jai decided to be a little poop and push me over the edge :flrt:



feorag said:


> I change my cage around slightly every week when I do my thorough clean out - I love watching the boys rushing around looking at where everything is and then frantically nest building.


Aww! That's what I like the most, making it all lovely for a pet and watching them enjoy it


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Dont blame the cutie x lol it was Rackie too :devil::whip::lol2:


look at that face...pure evil i tell ya!:lol2:


Rackie said:


> :lol: Ami we can share the blame! :2thumb:
> But we all know rats are amazing pets!
> 
> If anyone's in need of some cages I might have a few spare that I will put up for sale soon. I'll have a rummage through the garage when I get home. Trouble with breeding rats for years is you amass some cages!


:2thumb:


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Rackie said:


> :lol: Ami we can share the blame! :2thumb:
> But we all know rats are amazing pets!
> 
> If anyone's in need of some cages I might have a few spare that I will put up for sale soon. I'll have a rummage through the garage when I get home. Trouble with breeding rats for years is you amass some cages!


 
Oooh, oohh... meeeee! PICK MEEE! I wanna see what you have


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## Rackie (Jan 30, 2011)

Well if you come and visit you can have a look at my cage collection 
I always think the best way to decide between bucks and girls is have both  no I'm kidding, meet both and see what you like - there's only so much you can gather from written word!


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

Freakinfreak said:


> Wow, thanks for all that info!
> I was leaning towards does first, as I don't fancy their balls and the musking and spraying that the bucks do... but, the whole lumpy part of the girls is what worried me, also that does are faster. I'd probably be more comfortable with a bunch of lazy bucks that have balls than a group of lumpy and speedy females...
> 
> But still, I'm not 100%!!
> ...


noooooooooooooooooooo:gasp:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Freakinfreak said:


> Wow, thanks for all that info!
> I was leaning towards does first, as I don't fancy their balls and the musking and spraying that the bucks do... but, the whole lumpy part of the girls is what worried me, also that does are faster. I'd probably be more comfortable with a bunch of lazy bucks that have balls than a group of lumpy and speedy females...
> 
> But still, I'm not 100%!!
> ...


ah fair doos she is good at pushing *shhhhh dont tell her I said that* 

awwwww:flrt:



Freakinfreak said:


> Oooh, oohh... meeeee! PICK MEEE! I wanna see what you have


lol:2thumb:


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Rackie said:


> Well if you come and visit you can have a look at my cage collection
> I always think the best way to decide between bucks and girls is have both  no I'm kidding, meet both and see what you like - there's only so much you can gather from written word!


Will you PM me your town and postcode so I can have a butchers at how far away you are please?  



ami_j said:


> noooooooooooooooooooo:gasp:


Kidding... but you're a rotten influence :whip:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Rackie said:


> :lol: Ami we can share the blame! :2thumb:
> But we all know rats are amazing pets!
> 
> If anyone's in need of some cages I might have a few spare that I will put up for sale soon. I'll have a rummage through the garage when I get home. Trouble with breeding rats for years is you amass some cages!


I dont get paid for a month but yeah take all the blame, let me know though hun x: victory: ya never know.


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

Freakinfreak said:


> Will you PM me your town and postcode so I can have a butchers at how far away you are please?
> 
> 
> 
> Kidding... but you're a rotten influence :whip:


i did try telling you all the bad things they do to counter act it :lol2:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

ami_j said:


> I'm not liking all this blame Jai business. i think i know the real culprit....
> 
> image


Aw look! :flrt: It's our wrinkly, nekkid, one-eyed Atari!! :flrt:



Freakinfreak said:


> Wow, thanks for all that info!
> I was leaning towards does first, as I don't fancy their balls and the musking and spraying that the bucks do... but, the whole lumpy part of the girls is what worried me, also that does are faster. I'd probably be more comfortable with a bunch of lazy bucks that have balls than a group of lumpy and speedy females...
> 
> But still, I'm not 100%!!
> ...


To be honest my boys rarely ever spray or pee on anything that isn't in their cage - they do however do a lot of pee-ing in their cage on the shelves etc.

My breeder also told me to take everything ouy of the cage that they could hide in, so they had hammocks and shelves and that's your lot until they settled down and started to rush at me when I went to the cage, then I just put the tubes back in again.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

ami_j said:


> look at that face...pure evil i tell ya!:lol2:=
> 
> :2thumb:


:gasp: actually I can now see a little of the pinky and the brain feature! they are trying to take over the world!

YouTube - Pinky & The Brain Theme Song
well they are mice but its the principal lol


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

feorag said:


> Aw look! :flrt: It's our wrinkly, nekkid, one-eyed Atari!! :flrt:
> 
> To be honest my boys rarely ever spray or pee on anything that isn't in their cage - they do however do a lot of pee-ing in their cage on the shelves etc.
> 
> My breeder also told me to take everything ouy of the cage that they could hide in, so they had hammocks and shelves and that's your lot until they settled down and started to rush at me when I went to the cage, then I just put the tubes back in again.


When you consider the lack of an eye and fur its a suprise hes so damn adorable :flrt:


Salazare Slytherin said:


> :gasp: actually I can now see a little of the pinky and the brain feature! they are trying to take over the world!
> 
> YouTube - Pinky & The Brain Theme Song
> well they are mice but its the principal lol


hehe oh he plots alright the litthe schemer


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## Rackie (Jan 30, 2011)

I have to admit I'm not a huge fan of nekkid rats. But then I've never had one to make me feel differently!

I'm starting up a line of pure blacks, hopefully one day I'll make some rats as black as black mice!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Who told you rats "musk and spray"? Are they thinking of another creature? Rats pee. Sometimes that pee will be in the cage, sometimes that pee will be on you. They are not incontinent, but they certainly dont musk and spray either. That's ferrets. And skunks I presume!

TBH out of the two sexes, my girls are smellier and dirtier than my boys. They pee on their shelf and stash food in their litter trays. My boys smell like honey. Unless they're a serial marinader (and pee/poo where they sleep), in which case they smell a little manure-ish (only if you sniff them up close).

Ps. Bar spacing for babies should be 1cm. 20-25mm (or 1") should be reserved for adult bucks. Some girls will get out of that width too. If you want to go big with small bar spacing, something like a Brio, Brio Maxi, Duetto or Explorer would be best. However, these cages would be immense for babies, and you would want to consider a transitional cage while they get used to coming out with you. If you get even confident babies and put them straight in a Duetto, you're going to scare the poop out of them.


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> Who told you rats "musk and spray"? Are they thinking of another creature? Rats pee. Sometimes that pee will be in the cage, sometimes that pee will be on you. They are not incontinent, but they certainly dont musk and spray either. That's ferrets. And skunks I presume!
> 
> TBH out of the two sexes, my girls are smellier and dirtier than my boys. They pee on their shelf and stash food in their litter trays. My boys smell like honey. Unless they're a serial marinader (and pee/poo where they sleep), in which case they smell a little manure-ish (only if you sniff them up close).
> 
> Ps. Bar spacing for babies should be 1cm. 20-25mm (or 1") should be reserved for adult bucks. Some girls will get out of that width too. If you want to go big with small bar spacing, something like a Brio, Brio Maxi, Duetto or Explorer would be best. However, these cages would be immense for babies, and you would want to consider a transitional cage while they get used to coming out with you. If you get even confident babies and put them straight in a Duetto, you're going to scare the poop out of them.


Maybe someone meant like they scent or something? I'm not sure! :lol2:

I think I'm going for bucks. Yep, mind made up, bucks! 

Really? That spacing seems tiny! I was thinking of getting a small second hand cage with small spacing which I can hopefully get really cheaply and then whilst they're growing (how long could they stay in a pretty small cage?) I can arrange to find a bigger one. I'm wondering if there's a weight vs bar size chart or something?


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Ooooh, just to say, a Tom or a Samo seem to have small bar spacing but I don't know if that'd be suitable for 5/6 adult bucks and I'm not sure what the access is like :hmm:


ETA: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TALL-EXTRA-LA...et_Supplies_Small_Animals&hash=item3a6465ddaa 
I think that looks quite nice, but not sure!

EETA: It's a perfect size for where I want it to go, the bar spacing is 1/2 an inch and it can fit in 11 rats... hmmmmmmmm... any down sides anyone knows of?


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## Rackie (Jan 30, 2011)

Toms are good cages, I like them, I have one which I use as my 'small' cage, my main cages are Duettos.

I would say a Tom is probably suitable for 4/5 bucks, have you looked at this site, 
Housing, Accessories & Substrate
It gives pretty good explanations on most of the popular cages


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I bought a smaller cage for when I bought 2 new babies last year to join my older boys. Unfortunately it's a bit of a disaster because the bars are too far apart and the youngsters could get out of it, so I had to put the older boys in it until I could do the introductions and get them all into the Tom Rat cage.

When the young ones started picking on Hamish and I had to separate them for a while I put the older boys in the smaller cage just because they are over 2 now and I felt they would be happier in the smaller cage. 

That was when I discovered the second disadvantage - the bars are harder for them to walk across than the bars on the Tom Rat cage because of the spacing - they often drop a foot through the gap which they never do when they're on the top of the Tom Rat cage.

You can see in this video how far apart the bars are and at the beginning you can see the distance between the bars of the Tom rat on the right hand side.

YouTube - Angus, my berkshire rat nest building


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Rackie said:


> Toms are good cages, I like them, I have one which I use as my 'small' cage, my main cages are Duettos.
> 
> I would say a Tom is probably suitable for 4/5 bucks, have you looked at this site,
> Housing, Accessories & Substrate
> It gives pretty good explanations on most of the popular cages


That one I linked is a Samo, it's the XL version though. I think I'm getting that one, it's perfect and can be halved for when I first get them so they're not completely overwhelmed 

Thanks for the link, checking it out now!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I loved my Samo. I still have half of it for babies, but it's been steadily destroyed with time (my own fault, as I cut bits out and added new bits etc).

I'd buy another any day though, although you may find the new smaller doors annoying (you can buy Jenny doors from some online shops that you can fit to it instead if I remember correctly).


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Here's another nice cage with small bar spacing. The cage is sturdier than the Samo.

Options Small Animal Homes - Rat, Hamster, Ferret Cage Luna 400 » 100x55x69cm at VioVet (VioVet.co.uk)

I like these for older boys too (bar spacing is wider as they're rabbit cages), going to get myself a couple to replace my decrepid T3 and Baffy 120 cage (wot Kathy nicked for her ferrets)...

Options Small Animal Homes - Rat, Hamster, Ferret Cage Flora 500 » 100x56x92cm at VioVet (VioVet.co.uk)

Options Small Animal Homes - Rat, Hamster... Cage Flora 750 » 120x59x102 at VioVet (VioVet.co.uk)


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

feorag said:


> I bought a smaller cage for when I bought 2 new babies last year to join my older boys. Unfortunately it's a bit of a disaster because the bars are too far apart and the youngsters could get out of it, so I had to put the older boys in it until I could do the introductions and get them all into the Tom Rat cage.
> 
> When the young ones started picking on Hamish and I had to separate them for a while I put the older boys in the smaller cage just because they are over 2 now and I felt they would be happier in the smaller cage.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that! I'll check that link out shortly too. All these links, you'd think I was mad about rats :whistling2:
Which cage are you talking about? The Samo? :hmm: I've confused myself :blush: 



LisaLQ said:


> I loved my Samo. I still have half of it for babies, but it's been steadily destroyed with time (my own fault, as I cut bits out and added new bits etc).
> 
> I'd buy another any day though, although you may find the new smaller doors annoying (you can buy Jenny doors from some online shops that you can fit to it instead if I remember correctly).


I did see those replacement Jenny doors, yes. I think that the Samo is going to be my cage, unless I look at your below links and see something else 
Other than doors, is the Samo something that's pretty much a good all-rounder? 



LisaLQ said:


> Here's another nice cage with small bar spacing. The cage is sturdier than the Samo.
> 
> Options Small Animal Homes - Rat, Hamster, Ferret Cage Luna 400 » 100x55x69cm at VioVet (VioVet.co.uk)
> 
> ...


Checking these out now, thank you


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Freakinfreak said:


> Thanks for that! I'll check that link out shortly too. All these links, you'd think I was mad about rats :whistling2:
> Which cage are you talking about? The Samo? :hmm: I've confused myself :blush:


I can't remember which cage it was that I bought. I particularly bought that one because it's collapsible so could go up into my loft once I'd got the boys introduced and all in the Tom Rat cage.

So it made sense I was only anticipating using it for a couple of weeks - a month at most.


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

feorag said:


> I can't remember which cage it was that I bought. I particularly bought that one because it's collapsible so could go up into my loft once I'd got the boys introduced and all in the Tom Rat cage.
> 
> So it made sense I was only anticipating using it for a couple of weeks - a month at most.


And the Tom Rat is the one with bigger bar spacing? 

Your video made me laugh, I love the way he hurled himself off the top of the cage too :lol2:

"Yes, that's a perfect size", ahaha!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Freakinfreak said:


> And the Tom Rat is the one with bigger bar spacing?
> 
> Your video made me laugh, I love the way he hurled himself off the top of the cage too :lol2:
> 
> "Yes, that's a perfect size", ahaha!


No the Tom Rat is the taller cage with the narrower spacing on the right. I can't remember what make the other one with the wider spacing is.



LisaLQ said:


> I like these for older boys too (bar spacing is wider as they're rabbit cages), going to get myself a couple to replace my decrepid T3 and Baffy 120 cage (wot Kathy nicked for her ferrets)...
> 
> Options Small Animal Homes - Rat, Hamster, Ferret Cage Flora 500 » 100x56x92cm at VioVet (VioVet.co.uk)
> 
> Options Small Animal Homes - Rat, Hamster... Cage Flora 750 » 120x59x102 at VioVet (VioVet.co.uk)


I really like these too. They look like they'd be very easy to clean because they separate into 2 shallow cages and because my boys are typical boys and spend ages mooching around on the floor this would give them 2 floors to mooch in - and bigger floor space too!

I think when I'm ready to replace my Tom Rat I'll have myself one of these.


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

feorag said:


> No the Tom Rat is the taller cage with the narrower spacing on the right. I can't remember what make the other one with the wider spacing is.


Oh right, those bars do look quite wide now I look again. How many cages do you have? Just the two?

I'm looking for inspiration on what to do for the cage. I've already made a sock bed thing and a t-shirt rope :blush:
I really like your triple layer hammock, I might give that a go


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

When I got my first rats I just bought 2 cos that was all I wanted and I bought the Tom Rat cage to house them. When they got to a year and a half old, in anticipation of old age and losing them, maybe one of them first and the other being left alone, I introduced 2 young males, so had to buy another cage to house them until they could see and get used to each other and then be introduced. So I just bought this cage which was slightly less floor space and just over half the height, but it's collapsible so I can store it in my loft very easily.

Once they were introduced all all together in the Tom Rat cage the other one went up in the loft where it remains as a 'hospital' cage or an introduction cage when the 2 old boys die and the young ones are 'middle aged' so I can introduce 2 more, so no-one's ever left alone.

Have a go with the triple hammock - it's incredibly easy, just don't make a huge hole when you join them together. If you have an Ikea near you, you can buy fleece blankets from them in plain colours very cheaply. It is a bit stretchy, but probably a bit better quality than Primark's.


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## kooky1 (Feb 22, 2010)

hey FreakinFreak,
this cage is a work in progress at the moment and has had bits added on since this pic was taken a couple of weeks ago.its made up of old hamster/rat cages bottom cage is a ruffy.still got some doors to add tho,has got a cat scratching post in the middle which the rats love climbing up and down on.tubes for smaller ratties and hammocks and even a bunk bed lol ropes are dog toys from the poundshop! there were 3 girlies in there at the time pic was taken.now five but has a couple more floors added now.and wider at the bottom,will post pics when the camera decides to work again!! also now has lino tiles on the floors for added comfort and safety for the rats easy to clean and cheap to replace from poundshop the green platform is gone as well as it was always getting stuck!!


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> I'd buy another any day though, although you may find the new smaller doors annoying (you can buy Jenny doors from some online shops that you can fit to it instead if I remember correctly).


The large x-part Jenny doors were discontinued around 2 years ago.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Well I'm sure someone will have them for sale somewhere, even if it's second hand.


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Thanks for all your help everyone! Keep little suggestions and stuff coming 

I've finally decided on bucks, the Samo 102 cage and a white, black and blue colour theme :lol2:

But yeah, pictures and suggestions, tips and hints would be great and happily recieved :flrt:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

You need some black, white and blue rats!

Black and white rats rule (see my baby pics on the photos board - all reserved I'm afraid, but still good for a rat fix) :lol2::flrt:


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> You need some black, white and blue rats!
> 
> Black and white rats rule (see my baby pics on the photos board - all reserved I'm afraid, but still good for a rat fix) :lol2::flrt:


Oh sod off you :lol2: Tease  they're so cute :flrt:

I have to wait until we're back from holiday anyway, that's ages away!! Cos we're away for 10 days and I don't think I'd have anyone to look after them and they'd still not be properly confident if I got them in a couple of weeks.
Gives me more time to save for ratty things at least


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## Rackie (Jan 30, 2011)

LisaLQ said:


> Black and white rats rule :lol2::flrt:


^This.
Also guess who also :lol2:breeds black and white rats


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

It's a good idea to plan in advance though, as most breeders wont have babies available straight away, some even have very long waiting lists (I know a couple of breeders with 2+ year waiting lists).

My waiting list is pretty short, but I've not had a litter since August (until now), so even Nature can take its time.


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> It's a good idea to plan in advance though, as most breeders wont have babies available straight away, some even have very long waiting lists (I know a couple of breeders with 2+ year waiting lists).
> 
> My waiting list is pretty short, but I've not had a litter since August (until now), so even Nature can take its time.


I was wondering how to find a good one, I know someone gave me the email address of a site or something? To ask about breeders near me but I was wondering how reliable they are and how long I'd have to wait for them.

Really, I'm not bothered by the rat colouration, if I see some I like, I'd get them. But obviously I don't want to get them from someone where the rats are possibly going to have any issues from dodgy breeding!


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## giant snail (Oct 25, 2009)

JulieNoob said:


> You can put them on them - which is always fun - and even more fun is 3 seconds later just watching them walk out of them
> 
> Some of my boys are fine to come outside for a wander and will just ping back to me - many won't - mine are well trained
> 
> You can also put the cage outside for a while - or cage lid on the grass ...



ahhhhhhhh thought it was just my rats that can get out of a harness no matter how much i squeeze them in one to their disgust! haha, so i gave up and let them free range, i never have had a problem, just shake a bag and they come running for dried banana. just like a dog.


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## Rackie (Jan 30, 2011)

Freakinfreak said:


> I was wondering how to find a good one, I know someone gave me the email address of a site or something? To ask about breeders near me but I was wondering how reliable they are and how long I'd have to wait for them.
> !


[email protected]

Each breeder differs, for example at the moment, I don't have a very long waiting list but then I haven't had a litter in a while.

Unfortunately there's no 'vetting' policy for the breeders' list, but good breeders should be happy to answer any questions you have for them about their breeding practices etc. A lot have websites which have info on too


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

The NFRS list is one way of weedling the huge list of breeders down to a few. I'm not saying all the breeders on the list are good breeders, but all the good breeders I do know are on it.

Dont rule out rescues though - I didn't check your location before I started to reply, but there's a couple of great rescues about who often have babies available (or indeed older rats).

But like breeders, there's some rescues I wouldn't touch with a bargepole too. But they're generally the ones who wouldn't home to me anyway (being one of them there terrible breeder types that I am).:lol2:


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Rackie said:


> [email protected]
> 
> Each breeder differs, for example at the moment, I don't have a very long waiting list but then I haven't had a litter in a while.
> 
> Unfortunately there's no 'vetting' policy for the breeders' list, but good breeders should be happy to answer any questions you have for them about their breeding practices etc. A lot have websites which have info on too


Thanks for the email! What questions would be good to ask? 



LisaLQ said:


> The NFRS list is one way of weedling the huge list of breeders down to a few. I'm not saying all the breeders on the list are good breeders, but all the good breeders I do know are on it.
> 
> Dont rule out rescues though - I didn't check your location before I started to reply, but there's a couple of great rescues about who often have babies available (or indeed older rats).
> 
> But like breeders, there's some rescues I wouldn't touch with a bargepole too. But they're generally the ones who wouldn't home to me anyway (being one of them there terrible breeder types that I am).:lol2:


Haha! Well I'm currently near Maidenhead, Windsor, Slough and Reading. Sort of squished between the 4. 

I'm unsure if a rescue would be where I want to get first rats from if I'm honest. Don't get me wrong, I love helping rescues and all our cats have been rescued but if there's some sort of hidden past/dodgy breeding gone into them then it's possible that it might not be a very nice experience with them. If that makes sense?


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

TBH, some of my nicest rats have been rescues. It depends on the rescue.


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

My most docile rat, without a shadow of a doubt, is Margaret. Margaret was dumped in a carrier bag (literally just an empty, tied carrier) outside a RSPCA centre. A friend of mine happened to be there a few days later looking to adopt a dog and saw that they had Margaret in a small cage by the reception where she looked absolutely terrified because of all the noise and fuss from the visitors. The cage had barely anything in it. 

My friend adopted her and got a younger female to keep her company (he, of course, should have got a pair of younger ones but just got the one) Unfortunately the younger rat then had to be put to sleep (don't know the ins and outs of it) so Margaret was, again, left on her own. My friend wasn't the most clued up on rat care, primarily as he'd never had a rat before and while he tried his very best to look after her, he made amateur mistakes like using wood pellet litter, not having too big a cage with enough stimulation and feeding just a nugget diet with the odd treat here and there. 
Anyway, I took her on earlier this year as he has gone abroad for a long time. He was very upset to see her go but I think he realised that it was for the best for her to move in with my troop. 

Despite not knowing what on earth happened to her before getting to the RSPCA (she was emaciated at the time though) and not having a clue how she was kept by her previous owners, she is the most docile, beautiful, loving rat I have encountered. I was a little hesitant when I had her as she was moving in with my other 5 who were very confident and settled and also moving into my huge cage after not being used to very much space at all. 

She honestly is a gem and I think it is such a joy to see such lovely characters in rats despite their horrible starts to life. She is also estimated to be around 2.5 years and is so sprightly! Moreso than my 18 month old!


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Really? Hmm, I wonder then... I just think what would worry me would be the fact that you may not know anything about their upbringing/breeding which may have some very bad lines in them.

I think just for peace of mind, until I've become used to them, I'll probably buy from a breeder the first time. Then as time goes on I would definitely consider getting a few from a rescue


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

That's true, you dont know who bred them (although you can almost guarantee they'll be from pet shop/rodent farms if you trace them back), but temperament is often down to how well they're handled, and many kittens are born in rescue or in homes then handed in to rescue, and have been handled very well.

But you're right a lot is down to genetics. Not all breeder lines (or individual rats) will be healthy or with good temperaments though. My line was relatively healthy at first, never had a lump in my first couple of generations, and I'd have happily said that to anyone. But more recently, whether due to genetics or environment, we've seen one or two lumps pop up. No more than in the pet population in general, but still - I cant say my line is lump free any more.

But I can guarantee their general health (eg respiratory, etc), size, temperament etc will be better.


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## Rackie (Jan 30, 2011)

Yeah unfortunately my line has lumps in it too, but I can guarantee that they get more attention than pet shop lines! :2thumb:


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> That's true, you dont know who bred them (although you can almost guarantee they'll be from pet shop/rodent farms if you trace them back), but temperament is often down to how well they're handled, and many kittens are born in rescue or in homes then handed in to rescue, and have been handled very well.
> 
> But you're right a lot is down to genetics. Not all breeder lines (or individual rats) will be healthy or with good temperaments though. My line was relatively healthy at first, never had a lump in my first couple of generations, and I'd have happily said that to anyone. But more recently, whether due to genetics or environment, we've seen one or two lumps pop up. No more than in the pet population in general, but still - I cant say my line is lump free any more.
> 
> But I can guarantee their general health (eg respiratory, etc), size, temperament etc will be better.





Rackie said:


> Yeah unfortunately my line has lumps in it too, but I can guarantee that they get more attention than pet shop lines! :2thumb:


Thanks both of you 
That's the sort of information I'd want from a breeder. I wonder how many are truthful about having lumps in their line though?

And in males, are lumps as likely to occur too? I'm sounding thick but I really know minimal amounts of information at the moment. I am trying! :blush:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

No, it's more often females getting mammary lumps, however, boys can get lumps too, they are pretty random.

In my lines there have been relatively few lumps, I've found diet plays a huge part, and obese rats are much more prone to lumps, particularly mammary lumps.

However - specifically to my line, we've had 3 bucks out of all of our babies (which is quite a few) get a lump. Two were cysts and never grew past pea sized, so weren't removed. One (in a pet home) grew slightly larger, was removed and was benign.

And none of those boys had a standard coat. Two were satins (the ones with cysts), and lived til healthy ages, and the most recent (with the benign slow growing lump) is a velvet (or satin velvet, if that's possible).


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> No, it's more often females getting mammary lumps, however, boys can get lumps too, they are pretty random.
> 
> In my lines there have been relatively few lumps, I've found diet plays a huge part, and obese rats are much more prone to lumps, particularly mammary lumps.
> 
> ...


Oh, right, I see. So really a lump on a boy shouldn't be too worried about so long as it doesn't get any bigger than a pea? Or do you advise taking him to the vet for it to get checked out anyway as soon as you find it?

Another question completely unrelated, how sensitive are they to music? They're going to be in my room and I like to play music quite a lot. Same with a hoover, will they poop themselves if I use vacuum around them in the same room? Oh! And I have a cat... so if they see the cat, will they have a heart attack or something? Or will they just hide/try to bite the cat through the bars?

I was thinking of shutting the cat out of my room for the first couple of days I have them so that the only thing they'd really have to encounter would be me (I'm going to ban the family until they've gotten used to me) :whistling2:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I think any lump should be investigated, however in bucks they are quite rare. If the rat is healthy, the best thing to do in most cases is remove the lump. If the rat is very old or has health issues the vet feels may make the op more risky, then lump removal might not be an option.

In the case of the two cysts, they appeared in older bucks and we had to weigh up the benefits versus the risks of the op itself. And as they weren't thought to be tumours, and weren't growing, or likely to be malignant, there wasn't any point risking it.

Noise wise, it depends on the rats themselves. Mine have never had a problem with music, or hoovers, however babies in their first days/weeks in a new home may run and hide until they realise it's safe. Most breeders will bring their kittens into the main living area to get them used to noises, but some breeders keep their rats in sheds, so it depends on whether they bring them inside to get used to busy household life before homing or not. Always best to ask the breeder


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Ps. With regards the cats - we have 3 cats, 2 of which show no interest in the rats, the 3rd however is very nosey. It depends on how your cat reacts. I knew someone with a cat who would open cages to get to the animals inside, whereas my cats aren't that fussed - I'd watch your cat carefully and judge based on their reaction.


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> I think any lump should be investigated, however in bucks they are quite rare. If the rat is healthy, the best thing to do in most cases is remove the lump. If the rat is very old or has health issues the vet feels may make the op more risky, then lump removal might not be an option.
> 
> In the case of the two cysts, they appeared in older bucks and we had to weigh up the benefits versus the risks of the op itself. And as they weren't thought to be tumours, and weren't growing, or likely to be malignant, there wasn't any point risking it.
> 
> Noise wise, it depends on the rats themselves. Mine have never had a problem with music, or hoovers, however babies in their first days/weeks in a new home may run and hide until they realise it's safe. Most breeders will bring their kittens into the main living area to get them used to noises, but some breeders keep their rats in sheds, so it depends on whether they bring them inside to get used to busy household life before homing or not. Always best to ask the breeder


Ah, I see! Ok, so regarding lumps if one suddenly popped up should I arrange for a vets appointment asap? Or would you leave it maybe 2 or 3 days to see if there was any change in the lump?

Ah, I didn't think about that! In that case I'd definitely ask the breeder if they're used to noise or not. If they've just been in a shed should I make all the normal amount of noise as soon as I get them or creep around slightly for the first day?

And to ask another question, and irritate you further :lol2: should I leave them for a day to settle in or should I leave them a couple of hours and then get them out one by one for a little chat with them?



LisaLQ said:


> Ps. With regards the cats - we have 3 cats, 2 of which show no interest in the rats, the 3rd however is very nosey. It depends on how your cat reacts. I knew someone with a cat who would open cages to get to the animals inside, whereas my cats aren't that fussed - I'd watch your cat carefully and judge based on their reaction.


My cat is a little bit of a hunter, which is what I'd be a little bit worried about. I think I'll probably get proper locks to put on the doors when I go out and have the door shut. I'll probably get her in there to smell them and see how she reacts though. Just incase!


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## catastrophyrat (Jul 8, 2009)

Hi I'm in Bracknell my vet is in Fifield -Kelperland Vets -near to Maidenhead
I don't breed but i do have 9 rescues and 1 breeder's boy. Over many years of pet rat keeping I've had breeder's rats and rescue rats from all kinds of situations -some of my rescues are from actual rescues -some from private people who needed homes -one from a bush outside someone's mobile home -i've had babies and adults -one dumped in a box with other adults in the snow and one in a cage by the river with her youngsters . All different ages -unknown backgrounds and in all honesty only one bit me badly and she was a breeder's doe aged 8 weeks !! but i guess i have been lucky too over the years.
As far as cats go i have 5 indoor cats but only 1 is in the same room as the rats and she cannot reach them but she shows no interest anyway and i never free range rats with the cat in the same room.

Bucks can get lumps but as Lisa says it's not common -i had a young lad get one on his shoulder was a Lipoma (fatty lump ) and once removed it was fine .
My hairless boy Sweep had a tumour removed a few months age and he was only about 8 months -it was weird like a red pinch blister on his tum right in the middle -it was blood filled but a definite lump even though small -vet removed it and was glad he did as it was definitely a tumour and almost certainly malignant -he's fine now 
I know you probably want babies which i understand but don't discount older rescue boys -some of my best friends have been older rescue lads -totally laid back and cuddle monsters -very undemanding yet full of love.
Also sometimes you have to be prepared to travel a bit to find the ratties destined to be yours .


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## shadykkay (Oct 12, 2010)

it good you are resucing we do it too we have 17 resuces atm we get calls form rspca and woodgreen if they come in also lump are very common in rat both male and female we had a rat with 8 lumps and we have a girl with lump we had quike a few lump we also say after 2 yr the op is too much so we help em out as much we can time the times right which can be year or less we had lot of rat op on and we lost one due to having a lump on the thorh also e peraid for it to grow back as some do sorry if u no this just helpfull info as we had one were the lump fell though the skin and was cut off not pretty but no blood


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Freakinfreak said:


> Another question completely unrelated, how sensitive are they to music? They're going to be in my room and I like to play music quite a lot. Same with a hoover, will they poop themselves if I use vacuum around them in the same room? Oh! And I have a cat... so if they see the cat, will they have a heart attack or something? Or will they just hide/try to bite the cat through the bars?
> 
> I was thinking of shutting the cat out of my room for the first couple of days I have them so that the only thing they'd really have to encounter would be me (I'm going to ban the family until they've gotten used to me) :whistling2:


My rats live in my living room so share it with the television, hoover, 1 dog, 2 cats, 2 snakes, although the snakes obviously aren't walking around the room and all our visitors including family and grandchildren who live so far away when they visit they have to live here with us.

When I first got my boys I intended originally to keep them in the spare bedroom where my computer is, so that I could let them out to run and play when I was on the computer (which you'll gather is a lot of the time I'm in the house!), but I found they were remaining quite jumpy, even though I put the radio on in that bedroom all day when I was home. If my husband was coming upstairs and he coughed or sneezed they jumped, so I decided they were getting too 'protected' by their isolation and so I brought them down into the living room.

They now run to the front of the cage whenever the hoover comes out (and I've a 8 cyclone Dyson). The cats take very little notice of them, even when they're out free roaming, but the dog is obsessed with them and spends most of his days lying in front of the cage watching them and they come out and sit right in front of the bars and watch him back, but I do either put him out of the room or tether him to the dining table in the far end of the living room when they are out free roaming, because I know he would have a go at them if he had the chance, whereas I equally know my cats wouldn't.


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

catastrophyrat said:


> Hi I'm in Bracknell my vet is in Fifield -Kelperland Vets -near to Maidenhead
> I don't breed but i do have 9 rescues and 1 breeder's boy. Over many years of pet rat keeping I've had breeder's rats and rescue rats from all kinds of situations -some of my rescues are from actual rescues -some from private people who needed homes -one from a bush outside someone's mobile home -i've had babies and adults -one dumped in a box with other adults in the snow and one in a cage by the river with her youngsters . All different ages -unknown backgrounds and in all honesty only one bit me badly and she was a breeder's doe aged 8 weeks !! but i guess i have been lucky too over the years.
> As far as cats go i have 5 indoor cats but only 1 is in the same room as the rats and she cannot reach them but she shows no interest anyway and i never free range rats with the cat in the same room.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that, you're not far from me it seems! I think to start with I'd like to get babies so I can see how they grow and get to know how they are through all of their lives. I'd definitely consider getting older rescued boys but to start with I think I'll get babies.
I don't suppose you could PM me with any breeders you know of around here? I don't mind travelling but as far as colouration goes, I'm really not totally bothered by what sort :blush: I do know I'd love to have black and whites :flrt: berkshire blacks are LOVELY and I like the hooded blacks too 



shadykkay said:


> it good you are resucing we do it too we have 17 resuces atm we get calls form rspca and woodgreen if they come in also lump are very common in rat both male and female we had a rat with 8 lumps and we have a girl with lump we had quike a few lump we also say after 2 yr the op is too much so we help em out as much we can time the times right which can be year or less we had lot of rat op on and we lost one due to having a lump on the thorh also e peraid for it to grow back as some do sorry if u no this just helpfull info as we had one were the lump fell though the skin and was cut off not pretty but no blood


I'm not rescuing to start but I will definitely consider rescuing when my boys are older or if I end up getting another cage. 



feorag said:


> My rats live in my living room so share it with the television, hoover, 1 dog, 2 cats, 2 snakes, although the snakes obviously aren't walking around the room and all our visitors including family and grandchildren who live so far away when they visit they have to live here with us.
> 
> When I first got my boys I intended originally to keep them in the spare bedroom where my computer is, so that I could let them out to run and play when I was on the computer (which you'll gather is a lot of the time I'm in the house!), but I found they were remaining quite jumpy, even though I put the radio on in that bedroom all day when I was home. If my husband was coming upstairs and he coughed or sneezed they jumped, so I decided they were getting too 'protected' by their isolation and so I brought them down into the living room.
> 
> They now run to the front of the cage whenever the hoover comes out (and I've a 8 cyclone Dyson). The cats take very little notice of them, even when they're out free roaming, but the dog is obsessed with them and spends most of his days lying in front of the cage watching them and they come out and sit right in front of the bars and watch him back, but I do either put him out of the room or tether him to the dining table in the far end of the living room when they are out free roaming, because I know he would have a go at them if he had the chance, whereas I equally know my cats wouldn't.


Ah, thank you!
They'll be going into my bedroom so my plan was to leave them alone once I get them, until the next day, other than chatting to them quite a lot. Then the next day, get them out one by one, with lots of treats and chatting to them. But hold them first of all to get them used to being picked up.
I've seen a lot of people say to sit on a chair, bed or sofa with them so they can get to know you but surely they'd be rather fast and get away from you easily? We have NO room with not much in it, we've got a lot of stuff :blush: so I'm not sure how confident I'd be with having them or even one of them out on a sofa or bed!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Do you have a hallway, or is your bathroom big enough to sit on the floor with them? They're good choices for out time places, as we often dont have much furniture they can hide under. Obviously if you choose the bathroom, then be careful that anything harmful is well out of the way (loo bleach etc).

I find my rats tend to stay on the sofa/bed at out time, only ever had one or two silly girls decide to try flying! You could maybe make a playpen for them? I know a few people who've made foldaway playpens out of hardboard or correx and hinges or strong tape.

Playpen pics:
Fancy Rats • View topic - Show your Playpens

I keep meaning to make one (or get Mick to!) but never got round to it...


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> Do you have a hallway, or is your bathroom big enough to sit on the floor with them? They're good choices for out time places, as we often dont have much furniture they can hide under. Obviously if you choose the bathroom, then be careful that anything harmful is well out of the way (loo bleach etc).
> 
> I find my rats tend to stay on the sofa/bed at out time, only ever had one or two silly girls decide to try flying! You could maybe make a playpen for them? I know a few people who've made foldaway playpens out of hardboard or correx and hinges or strong tape.
> 
> ...


We only have one hallway and that's upstairs where we have a banister on the landing which they could fall through. 
I could, however, shut all of the upstairs doors and somehow make something so that I can put it infront of the banister, blocking off the gaps. Although I don't know if I'd want to risk them falling down the stairs!

The bathroom isn't really that big, the main thing I'd worry about is that there's a fair chance of them getting stuck behind the loo or climbing up the back of the sink which would be blooming hard to retrieve them from :lol2:

I'll have a look at that link, thanks 
Oh, and I've emailed 3 breeders from the NFRS and just waiting for any replies back.
I've fallen in love with black berkshires and british blues :flrt:


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

Freakinfreak said:


> We only have one hallway and that's upstairs where we have a banister on the landing which they could fall through.
> I could, however, shut all of the upstairs doors and somehow make something so that I can put it infront of the banister, blocking off the gaps. Although I don't know if I'd want to risk them falling down the stairs!
> 
> The bathroom isn't really that big, the main thing I'd worry about is that there's a fair chance of them getting stuck behind the loo or climbing up the back of the sink which would be blooming hard to retrieve them from :lol2:
> ...


thats what i have done, i have big pieces of cardboard from the box the cage came in agaisnt the bannisters


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Good luck with the breeders


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## catastrophyrat (Jul 8, 2009)

the list you have is best bet for breeders -hope you find someone -tbh i don't know any local breeders to me here


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## Rackie (Jan 30, 2011)

catastrophyrat said:


> the list you have is best bet for breeders -hope you find someone -tbh i don't know any local breeders to me here


I'm between Reading/Newbury


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Rackie said:


> I'm between Reading/Newbury


Oooh... :whistling2:
What colours do you plan on having any time soon?

PARENTS SAID YES :flrt: cage gonna be ordered soon! I'M SO EXCITED 

But... sodding breeders not replying to emails!!! :whip:


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## Rackie (Jan 30, 2011)

I breed Himalayans, ivories, agouti, black etc. I've not had much luck with litters recently, but I'm hoping to have a litter in a few weeks which will hopefully have some ivories and agoutis


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## Anna_x (Jun 2, 2009)

I'm no expert but I've certainly learnt a lot from having my three boys.
I love the boys because they hardly chew, at all. They've not chewed anything since I've had them. They do fight a bit, but whenever I catch them I just make a high pitched squeaky sound and they stop. 

I rarely feed mine on rat food. They pretty much live off sardines, chicken, scrambled egg, fresh fruit, cereals rich in iron, and mix in some rabbit food to go with. Obvious things such as cheese or chocolate should be avoided just because they are so high in fat or sugar etc.
However constantly feeding them on fresh makes their poo actually reek so I clean them out about once a week.

I keep my boys on hay which they seem to do okay with, but I fill their beds with your typical J-cloth shreds. They normal drag all the hay from the floor into their house though no matter how much I put in.
I dangle shredded paper through the bars and they will come and collect it to use for their beds.
On the cage calculator a Jenny comfortably houses 6 adult rats. It has a plastic bottom so girls COULD chew their way out but I find this cage very spacious. 
It's pretty hard to grab em though so I spent weeks getting them to trust me to wander out on their own which they are very comfortable with now.
When I first put them in the Jenny they were 4 weeks old, absolute babies and I was really scared it would intimidate them but they were in it for literally five seconds and had climbed all the way up to the top and were doing absolutely fine.
I reckon the most important thing is to break up the falls. 

I made the HUGE mistake of picking one up when I first got them.
I was like "Awhh hello WHERE'S IT GONE". They are like properly terrified of you when they are babies (depending on how they have been treated by people up until they are sold). 
The taming started by hand feeding, then when I had to transfer them into a box when I cleaned them out. Then I moved the cage into the bathroom, left the door open, and sat there for AGES reading a book while they popped their heads out and back in for hours and hours.

I like to sit with my dressing gown on and offer the sleeve up to the door. They can't help themselves, they jump straight in and play in there for ages.

To get them to learn their names give them treats individually and say their name every time they get a treat.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Anyone who sells rats at 4 weeks old and absolutely terrified, needs bloody shooting.

"Breeders" like that give the rest of us a bad name.

My rats dont leave til at least 7 weeks, if not 8 or 9, and they're licky tame and not terrified at all (although even tame rats might be shy for a day or two as they settle in).

Sounds like your breeder needs avoiding in future :devil:


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## Anna_x (Jun 2, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> Anyone who sells rats at 4 weeks old and absolutely terrified, needs bloody shooting.
> 
> "Breeders" like that give the rest of us a bad name.
> 
> ...


Without a doubt.
It's thanks to the people on here that I discovered how young they were.
She told me they were 8 weeks.
:censor:


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Ok, so I emailed a few people and a woman in Herts replied back today. I asked about her Blacks and British Blues :flrt: she had me fill in an application to go on her waiting list and tomorrow I'll be ordering the cage.

Ooooh, I'm sooooo excited 

I've still not decided upon the food mix yet. I know I want to make it yummy for my ratties but I've decided I want to have 3 or 4 different mixes written down so that they never have the exact same food mix for too long in a row. 

If any of you could let me know what your mix consists of and how much, then that'd be awesome so I can start planning food!
Oh, and do your rats have any favourite treats?


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## Anna_x (Jun 2, 2009)

If I ever make a homemade smoothie I dip three fingers in it and they lick it off like lambs on a bottle :]


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I make up my mix in bulk, but there's info on my website. A good website for diet info:
Shunamite Rats

My ratios are somewhat different (I dont add anywhere near as much pasta or cereals as that as my rats - from all origins - get very overweight on those ratios - sometimes dont add pasta at all, and at the moment I dont add dog food).


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