# Mourning gecko eclosure



## creepycrawlies (Dec 2, 2014)

Hi guys,

This is a picture of the mourning gecko enclosure I was working on over the weekend.

It is 80cm x 80cm x 20cm. It has a heat lamp and a full spectrum for the plants. It has a heat gradient from 30C down to 17C

It has a fern, a spider plant and two Ivy plants. It also has a living floor with springtails. I am hoping to get some isopods in there also.

I am getting two adults and two babies. Obviously I will have to upgrade as the colony grows or sell some babies.


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## creepycrawlies (Dec 2, 2014)

Just noticed the typo in the description enclosure* cant edit it!?


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

nice looking display! 

you might need more light than that for those plants to grow, look forward to seeing it populated and matured tho


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Real nice space for such an active little species. Very soon you will be able to harvest them your self 

it will really come into its own when the plants take hold.

well done!

real nice

john


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## creepycrawlies (Dec 2, 2014)

I wasnt sure about the lighting. That is an aquarium plant light. It is 8500k colour. The geckos dont need UV as I understand so opted for the aquarium light instead. The plants are low light house plants. I grew the spider plant and ivy myself in our north facing porch which is quite dull. The fern is new. And advise would be appreciated. The same light has my planted tank in full bloom!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Who told you that? It's total rubbish. 

Ask yourself, have they got skin and bones and vital organs?

Do they get exposure at any level in the wild .

Do they eat whole mammals or fish as a food?

The correct answers are, yes, yes and no

Therefore they have little to no D3 in the wild diet and as such will have evolved to utilise this powerful group of wavlengths of light to sustain and perpetuate life.

Remember, no or deficient. D3 = ever decreasing Ca, this means soft bones and poor organ function. 

Worth doing some reading on the wild habitat : victory:

John, 




creepycrawlies said:


> I wasnt sure about the lighting. That is an aquarium plant light. It is 8500k colour. The geckos dont need UV as I understand so opted for the aquarium light instead. The plants are low light house plants. I grew the spider plant and ivy myself in our north facing porch which is quite dull. The fern is new. And advise would be appreciated. The same light has my planted tank in full bloom!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

agreed...UVB is essential for any reptile that basks in sunlight (and maybe even those that don't)


even reptiles such as Monitors, which eat whole prey, have been shown to have stronger immune systems (white cell counts, Dr Fry's research, maybe? cant remeber) when provided with UVB


it looks to be close to 2ft between the plants and the lights? which is quite a distance, time will tell! if they stop growing or start dying off, lack light is probly the issue


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## creepycrawlies (Dec 2, 2014)

I disagree completely! All reptile certainly do not require UV light. Leopard geckos and other nocturnal reptiles for example. Most large scale breeders do not provide their leopard geckos with any UV.

Whilst I accept that these lizards do bask, they are capable of processing their own calcium, like other nocturnal reptiles. They are very active during the day in captivity but in the wild are almost exclusively nocturnal. (I have done some reading, thank you very much)

Its very simple to change the bulb in this enclosure but the colony they are coming from is quite old and do not have UV. All calcium is from a good varied diet.

I accpet your point that they may benefit from UV but just because they have skin and bones does not mean that they require UV.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Leopard geckos are not nocturnal, and they develop MDB if they are not given D3 supplements or UVB, they cannot process Calcium without one or the other

Infact I cannot think of a single Gecko, Nocturnal, Diurnal or otherwise, which doesn't require D3 supplement's and can "process calcium" without it. 

I've seen for myself the difference UVB/UVA makes to Leo's in captivity, I too once believed that UV was not essential


the way leo's are mass produced, is all about quantity, ie battery farming - the reason that some leo breeders are so resistant to the idea of UV, imo, has allot to do with the costs associated with providing it for the numbers which some produce...sure you can provide D3 and avoid MDB, but there is more to it than that, quality of life is without a doubt better for those that have access to it


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## White Chocolate (Jan 12, 2011)

Reading this has got me very worried.My mourning geckos are doing well but now see there is a problem.I have exo terra full spectrum lights fitted but my mourning geckos do not bask under it at all.When the lights are on they hide in dark places and only become active under the dim led supplementary light.
Should I force them to be exposed to the full spectrum lighting by catching them in clear cricket boxes and leaving them under the lights for few hours.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

White Chocolate said:


> Reading this has got me very worried.My mourning geckos are doing well but now see there is a problem.I have exo terra full spectrum lights fitted but my mourning geckos do not bask under it at all.When the lights are on they hide in dark places and only become active under the dim led supplementary light.
> Should I force them to be exposed to the full spectrum lighting by catching them in clear cricket boxes and leaving them under the lights for few hours.


 
no, definitely not; they can regulate their own exposure as and when they need to


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## White Chocolate (Jan 12, 2011)

That's the point.If I switch the lights on they stay hidden so I'm sure they are not getting any uv rays at all.I'm new to keeping lizards so just hope I'm not harming them by doing stuff wrong.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

White Chocolate said:


> That's the point.If I switch the lights on they stay hidden so I'm sure they are not getting any uv rays at all.I'm new to keeping lizards so just hope I'm not harming them by doing stuff wrong.


I had a feeling your question was sarcastic, not really a great way to go about the discussion, and potentially misleading to other readers.

UV exposure and utilization is not fully understood in all reptiles, for eg it was only recently discovered that Leo's are extremely efficient in utilizing UV and producing D3, far more efficient than many Diurnal species who spend allot of their time in the sun, they are able to produce lots of D3 with only a little UV exposure, both from directly bathing in the sun for a very short period, and from the very small amount which is reflected along tunnels and into their burrows/hiding places


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## creepycrawlies (Dec 2, 2014)

CloudForest said:


> Leopard geckos are not nocturnal, and they develop MDB if they are not given D3 supplements or UVB, they cannot process Calcium without one or the other
> 
> Infact I cannot think of a single Gecko, Nocturnal, Diurnal or otherwise, which doesn't require D3 supplement's and can "process calcium" without it.
> 
> ...


You've contradicted yourself there. You said that they should be provided with UV or D3 supplement, but then go on to say that they must have UV. 

I am sure that UV is not essential if D3 supplement is provided, which most good gecko diets and reptile powders have.

As I understand it some reptiles require UV to convert calcium & D3 for healthy bones. Others can do it without the UV. Mourning geckos and leopard geckos are examples of those that can.

I think that the larger gecko breeders might have something to say about you comparing them to battery farmers. For one each groupwill have large cages with a choice of micro habitats, unlike the poor chickens.

If leopard gecko mutations were produced by breeders that had to provide all their animals with UV they would be considerably more expensive. I completely disagree that a leopard gecko reared without UV is unhealthy or inferior quality to one that has not! Infact, most leopard geckos shy away from bright UV light as their eyes are so sensitive for seeing prey in the dark.

I would be seriously concerned for some of the albino mutations if exposed to UV for long periods of time.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

No I did not contradict myself, i think you just don't quite get whats going on with D3, UV and Calcium utilization...

D3 is required to utilize Calcium, regardless of the species

UVB is used to produce D3, some animals can also get it from certain foods.

Without UVB, a reptile cannot produce its own D3, and so cannot utilize Calcium; therefore, it must be supplemented with D3 (unless it gets it from its diet, like most snakes)

For a reptile to utilize Calcium and avoid MDB, it must have either UVB or a D3 supplemented diet, in one form or another (whether that is powders or particular prey)

*But *_D3 and MDB is not the only concern, and it not the only benefit which reptiles gain from UV exposure - and D3 overdose is just as dangerous as not giving any D3 or UVB_

UV also improves immune response, eye sight, activity and appetite...and they are just the few areas we know about, i don't doubt that many more benefits will appear

So while it is true that D3 supplements can avert MDB, without the use of UVB, that is not the only issue...and an animal "surviving" doesn't necessarily mean it has a high quality of life.


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## creepycrawlies (Dec 2, 2014)

I have no doubt there are benefits to UV such as killing off certain skin living bacteria. I think we all accept now that UV lighting is not essential to the care of nocturnal geckos as long as they have a diet rich in D3. 

All my reptiles get D3 and calcium supplement and the gecko diets are well balanced.

I can if necessary switch the bulb to a reptile bulb but my primary reason for including full spectrum lighting is to encourage the plant growth.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

creepycrawlies said:


> I have no doubt there are benefits to UV such as killing off certain skin living bacteria. I think we all accept now that UV lighting is not essential to the care of nocturnal geckos as long as they have a diet rich in D3.
> 
> All my reptiles get D3 and calcium supplement and the gecko diets are well balanced.
> 
> I can if necessary switch the bulb to a reptile bulb but my primary reason for including full spectrum lighting is to encourage the plant growth.


UVC kills bacteria, but UVC is extremely dangerous to all living things and should never be used in a reptile enclosure, UVA and UVB don't kill bacteria

I don't accept that UV is not essential to a high quality of life in captive animals, for which we have a responsibility and duty of care

I do accept it is not essential in the prevention of MDB, if D3 supplements are used, but that is as far as I will concede


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## wagg (Feb 6, 2014)

There was a post up a few days ago of a lil girl whos eyes were proper burnt from uvc. Arcadis john enlightened the situation for the person who posted and gave some good info for us to read. Or facts i should say.


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

I've kept mournings both with and without UV. My oldest adults were raised without UV and have been fine, though I personally prefer to give them UV lighting and currently they are provided with UV for them and the plants. All ages in my colony bask under the light at some point - some longer than others. Youngsters tend to be more active during the day than the adults.

I have no evidence to say they need it or they don't need it, but personally I think they seem to be happier with UV light than without. Certainly a lot of the youngsters climb up to the top closer to the light.

My set-up (missing a light due to broken light holder) - the geckos tend to cluster under the light, especially noticeable when the light is reduced.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

SilverSteno said:


> I've kept mournings both with and without UV. My oldest adults were raised without UV and have been fine, though I personally prefer to give them UV lighting and currently they are provided with UV for them and the plants. All ages in my colony bask under the light at some point - some longer than others. Youngsters tend to be more active during the day than the adults.
> 
> I have no evidence to say they need it or they don't need it, but personally I think they seem to be happier with UV light than without. Certainly a lot of the youngsters climb up to the top closer to the light.
> 
> ...


beautiful setup! love natural vivs

is that a live mushroom on the wood?


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## creepycrawlies (Dec 2, 2014)

What light do you use for the plants?

I probably will add a UV and maybe time it to come for a few hours around mid day. Ill leave the plant bulb on for longer. 

Do I need both?


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

No it's not a live mushroom. I use a 2.0 and a 5.0, both are exo-terra compacts for reptiles not plant-specific, but I leave them both on for the same length of time. While leaving them on for shorter periods may be fine when there are fewer geckos, when there are more it could make things more competitive amongst them to bask and the smaller ones could potentially be pushed out by the adults.


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## White Chocolate (Jan 12, 2011)

> I had a feeling your question was sarcastic, not really a great way to go about the discussion, and potentially misleading to other readers


 Sorry Cloudforest if I came across like this.It was not meant that way and apologies if it did.I am new to this and tend to worry if I'm doing stuff wrong.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

White Chocolate said:


> Sorry Cloudforest if I came across like this.It was not meant that way and apologies if it did.I am new to this and tend to worry if I'm doing stuff wrong.


fair enough  i can be a short sum times, glad it was just a misunderstanding


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## creepycrawlies (Dec 2, 2014)

The Mourning geckos arrived.

2 adults and three hatchlings. The adults are very calm and relaxed. The babies are running all over the viv hunting fruit flies and springtails.


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## harry136 (Aug 2, 2012)

Very nice geckos and viv. My response to the UV question is simple. Is it provided in their natural environment, even in small amounts, the answer is yes even nocturnal species will have some exposure to it. Its in their environment so we should provide it.


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## creepycrawlies (Dec 2, 2014)

UV bulb installed. Will this be sufficient for the plants?


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

creepycrawlies said:


> UV bulb installed. Will this be sufficient for the plants?


its the light level which is important for the pants, rather than the UVB itself, only time will tell if its enough, if you have a reflector installed aswell, that will help

one thing we know for sure, is that the more light the better! but obviously when animals are in close proximity to the light, there has to be a compromise; the furthest I have had lights from growing plants is about 18inches, and there is a significant difference in growth rate when they are 18, 12 or 6 inches from the light


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## Stupot1610 (Jul 6, 2013)

creepycrawlies said:


> The Mourning geckos arrived.
> 
> 2 adults and three hatchlings. The adults are very calm and relaxed. The babies are running all over the viv hunting fruit flies and springtails.
> 
> ...


I don't normally venture into the lizard section (I'm an amphibian person) but after you told me about your mourning geckos I had to have a look. And I can tell you that I'm very impressed.
I have a question though; are they all females? 
If they are how do they maintain a large gene pool, surely if the females were just producing young themselves they would have a limited variety of genes? As I understand it, if a female produces young by herself without involving males she is creating clones of herself?

Stuart


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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

Stupot1610 said:


> I don't normally venture into the lizard section (I'm an amphibian person) but after you told me about your mourning geckos I had to have a look. And I can tell you that I'm very impressed.
> I have a question though; are they all females?
> If they are how do they maintain a large gene pool, surely if the females were just producing young themselves they would have a limited variety of genes? As I understand it, if a female produces young by herself without involving males she is creating clones of herself?
> 
> Stuart


 I'm not sure how knowledgeable everyone is on genetics, so I might over explain things a bit, but bear with me. This form of reproducing is called parthenogenesis and is an unusual way of reproducing among vertebrates. I think about 40 species of reptiles are known to be able to do this, among them the komodo dragon. Parthenogenetic animals indeed 'clones' themselves.

Normally our sexual reproduction cells (egg cells/sperm cells) double their genetic information (imagine N represents the genetic information in a cell, so we go from N to 2N) and then split two times into four new cells (this process is called meiosis, now each cell has 0.5N). When a sperm cell meets an egg cell, genetic information fuses (so it's N again) and the cell begins dividing.

Parthenogenetic animals quadruple their genetic information (so we have 4N) and usually divides them once into two cells (both 2N). Both these cells will develop into eggs. Sometimes when a 'cloned' female breeds with a 'normal' male, they produce offspring with 3N or even more. These are mostly infertile but sometimes do produce offspring.

It might sound a bit contradicting but genetic diversity in a individual animal is actually higher than you would find in a sexual reproductive animal. This because gene pairs with a dominate trait and a recessive trait (or heterozygote) are conserved. However the genetic diversity of a species is actually very little to practically none. Though it can happen that offspring is not a full clone, but only half a clone. This happens through fusion of the genetic material, but I***8217;m not sure in what degree this happens in reptiles. 

Parthenogenetic species/bloodlines are mostly quite young. They can't adapt to change rapidly, but have the advantage that they can reproduce very rapidly. In habitats that don***8217;t change much it can have a significant advantage to be parthenogenetic.

L. lugubris (mourning gecko) is a completely parthenogenetic species. It contains only fertile females, though males are occasionally born through a genetic defect or hybridization.


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## creepycrawlies (Dec 2, 2014)

It's just amazing!

I am looking forward to seeing eggs. 

They are not really eating the Gecko diet, what should the consistancy be? I made it runny the first day then thicker the next. neither attracted them. They are eating crickets and fruitflies though!


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

I wouldn't worry about them not eating the diet just yet, they only eat small amounts and may be eating when you aren't looking. You could try mixing some honey in with it to make it a bit sweeter to see if that helps if they still don't eat it.


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## lozmick (Jun 24, 2013)

creepycrawlies said:


> It's just amazing!
> 
> I am looking forward to seeing eggs.
> 
> They are not really eating the Gecko diet, what should the consistancy be? I made it runny the first day then thicker the next. neither attracted them. They are eating crickets and fruitflies though!


I've always mixed it up as the same thickness as tomato sauce etc


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