# Bring out ye dead!!



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

EPS species.

I have gone through God alone knows how many pieces of legis on this law, and l simply can not find anything to do with the actual live species and how they are planning on dealing with them?

Currently reading through this one:

*Changes to the Habitats Regulations that will effect the possession and trade of species protected both by CITES and the Habitats Directive​
Issue

Commercial use and possession of certain specimens protected by CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species) will be subject to additional controls when changes to the Habitats Regulations come into force on 21st August 2007.

Background

The Habitats Directive (1992) requires EU Member States to establish a strict species protection regime for certain animal and plant species, listed in Annex IV and Annex II(b) (except bryophytes) which occur in Great Britain and across Europe. The Habitats Regulations (1994) transpose this requirement in England and Wales. 


Changes are being made to the Habitats Regulations to improve this regime and thereby increase the protection afforded to these species in response to two European Court judgments: 


A judgment in 2005 ruled that existing species protection provisions in the Habitats Regulations were not fully compatible with the strict species protection regime required by the Habitats Directive.


A separate, related judgment ruled that trade in all species listed on Annex IV and Annex II(b) of the Habitats Directive should be prohibited, rather than trade in just those species found in Great Britain.
Impact on Article 10 licences under CITES

Government policy is that where a licence cannot be issued under one regime, it should not be issued under another: in other words, if it is not possible to issue a licence under the Habitats Regulations, applications under CITES controls should be refused.


Some of the species affected by the changes to the Habitats Regulations are also listed on Annex A of CITES. Please see Table 1 for further information on the species that are covered by both sets of legislation. The commercial use of these specimens will be subject to additional controls when the changes to the Habitats Regulations come into force on 21st August 2007. 

After that date, prohibition on trade will apply to wild-taken specimens of species listed on Annex IV or Annex II(b) of the Habitats Directive that were taken from the wild after the Habitats Directive was implemented in the country of their origin. For the UK this is 10th June 1994. 


In order to obtain a licence for commercial use under CITES for any wild-taken specimen of these species, it will first be necessary to obtain a licence issued under the Habitats Regulations. A Habitats Regulations licence may only be issued if the purpose of the activity is a relevant one (for example, it is for scientific or educational purposes), and the two tests under Article 16 of the Directive are met; that is, there is no satisfactory alternative and the use is not detrimental to the favourable conservation status of the species concerned. 

It is also important to note that whilst a CITES licence (Article 10 commercial use certificate) is only required for commercial use, under the Habitats Regulations a licence is also required for possession, irrespective of whether that possession is for commercial purposes or otherwise. See Annex 1 for further details.

If it is decided that a licence can be issued under the Habitats Regulations, you will be sent a CITES Article 10 application form. 


Further information on changes to the Habitats Regulations may be found on http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-countryside/ewd/ewd09.htm. 
 

Further information on Habitats Regulations licensing and application forms for possession and sale are available on
http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/conservation/wildlife-management-licensing/licensing.htm

Annex 1

Amendment of the Habitats Regulations in England and Wales 2007:

Change to licensing requirements.​
Possession or control, transport, sale or exchange of Annex IV and Annex II(b) species (animals and plants) taken from the wild which may result in offences under regulations 39(2) and 43(2). 


1) Background to the changes

The offences in regulations 39(2) and 43(2) concerning the keeping, transportation, sale and exchange of European protected species (EPS) have been amended and now include species native to other member States. 


It is now an offence to have in one’s possession or control, transport, sell or exchange or offer for sale or exchange any live or dead animal listed in Annex IV(a) or plant listed in Annex IV(b) or Annex II(b) (other than any bryophyte) of the Habitats Directive, or any part of or anything derived from such an animal or plant. 

Annexes IV and II(b) list species found in Great Britain (EPS) and species found elsewhere in Europe, such as the beaver or wolf.


The offence does not apply to certain excepted populations of animal species, namely those listed in Schedule 2A and certain populations of the Wild Goat, the European Mouflon and the Houting.

There is a defence available where the animal or plant concerned was taken lawfully from the wild. Lawfully taken means taken from the wild in the EC before the implementation date of the Habitats Directive in that member State without contravention of applicable wildlife legislation, or taken from outside the EC. However, the scope of the defence is different depending on the species concerned, the activity concerned and where and when the species was taken from the wild (see below for further information).



We have retained the presumption that, in any proceedings for an offence under regulation 39(2) or 43(2), the animal or plant in question, or the animal or plant from which the relevant part came or thing was derived, had been taken from the wild. This means that it is for the defendant to show, if prosecuted for possessing etc. 

Annex IV or relevant Annex II(b) species under this regulation, that the specimen in question did not originate from the wild (e.g. it was captive bred or cultivated).

2) Possession and non-sale related transport of Annex IV and Annex II(b) species



The requirement to obtain a licence will depend on where, when and how the specimen in question was taken from the wild. 



Where the specimen of an Annex IV or relevant Annex II(b) species was taken from the wild outside the EC, a licence will not be required to possess or transport that specimen. A licence will not be required to possess or transport captive bred or cultivated Annex IV or Annex II(b) species.



For species taken within the EC, where the specimen of an Annex IV or Annex II(b) species was taken from the wild before 10 June 1994 (or when taken in a member State which joined the EC after that date, the date on which that State became a member), without contravention of applicable wildlife legislation, a licence will not be required to possess or transport that specimen.



Where the specimen of an Annex IV or relevant Annex II(b) species was taken from the wild after 10 June 1994 (or after the relevant State became a member State) a licence will be required to possess or transport that specimen. 



Anyone who already possesses an Annex IV or relevant Annex II(b) species will need to consider whether a licence is required once the amendments to the Habitats Regulations come into force. There will be a 3 month ‘grace’ period after the Regulations come into force in order to provide people adequate time to obtain a licence to continue to possess specimens. 



Licences for possession will be issued for the following purposes under regulation 44:



the keeping of wild animals or wild plants, under strictly supervised conditions, on a selective basis and limited numbers; or

for scientific or educational purposes

 


A licence will usually be granted for a period of 25 years for dead specimens and two years for live specimens. People may choose to give their dead specimens to museums if they do not wish to continue to possess them. 




3) Sale etc. of Annex IV and Annex II(b) species


Whether a licence for sale, exchange, or transporting for those purposes, is required will depend on the species concerned and where and when it was taken from the wild. 


Where the species is an EPS, sale, exchange, or transportation for sale or exchange purposes, of a specimen of that species will require a licence irrespective of when it was taken from the wild. 


Where the species is any other Annex IV or Annex II(b) species and taken from within the EC, sale, exchange or sale related transportation of a specimen of that species will require a licence if it was taken from the wild after 10th June 1994 (or when taken in a member State which joined the EC after that date, the date on which that State became a member). A specimen taken before 10th June 1994 (or the relevant alternative date) can be sold without a licence so long as it can be shown that it was taken in accordance with the law of the Member State in which it was taken.


Where the species is any other Annex IV or Annex II(b) species and taken from outside the EC, or captive bred or cultivated, a sale, exchange or sale-related transportation licence will not be required.

EPS are also protected from sale under section 9(5) (animals) and 13(2) (plants) of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. As the sale offence could be committed under both pieces of legislation, a licence will be required under both licensing regimes. It is realised that this situation creates an increased burden on the applicant and we hope to rectify the situation at a later date.


Well this is most of the document, as some will know, but do you know what?

It still does not say what is going to happen to the live species............... anywhere - now this is either a flaw or the keepers if refused a licence that they may or may not have applied for in the first place will have to have them killed themselves.

But as it does not actually address this issue, is that right?

Or perhaps we are to await the Barrow Boys who will crawl through our streets hollering "Bring out ye dead", meaning that we have them killed and then we donate them to BB - does this mean we then have to have a banner on the door depicting a red cross with EPS written across the top?

We could always just await prosecution, and they will start.

Interestingly enough l have also noted that no keeper [private it would appear ] will ever receive a licence.

That is fair isn't it? LOL NOT!!

Crikey l bet all you non eps keepers are sighing a relief eh??

Thank God its not normal species to be killed and donated, or prosecution orientated donation of spare body parts to the museums.

How did the polybox idea go by the way?

But can you imagine if something like this happened on non eps species......?? MMM can you??

Well there would be an outcry l guess, all of you would be jumping up and down on the spot eh?

Would you be looking for support from your fellow keepers?

Well if so lets hope you supported their pleas for help throughout the EPS campaign eh?

But l am sure you all did help, l guess you did anyway.

Shocking tho this eps, not sound in the slightest.

Rory Matier

Pro Keepers Lobby

*


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

Rory, having researched further myself into legalities, animals are not to be disposed of, with regards to tortoises (i was researching for the benefit of my Hermann's) a licence is applied for to clarify your intentions for the animal, be it rehabilitation for return to the wild etc, your premises can then be inspected to show you are providing adequate care. However, Current Article 10 papers are sufficient.

With regards to the EPS, it is not a way to eradicate all European species in Captivity, it is simply legislation to further prevent European Species being picked from the wild and imported. Something tortoise owners have been calling for hey?

I myself have applied for my licence to keep my 2 Hermann's, and it has been accepted, pending premises inspection.


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

*"A licence will usually be granted for a period of 25 years for dead specimens and two years for live specimens. People may choose to give their dead specimens to museums if they do not wish to continue to possess them"*

*This is also very badly worded, it simply means if you posess any dead animals (in jars etc) then you should donate them to the Museum etc, not suggesting genocide.*


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Hi Akua, 

Well l agree with you, it is badly worded, but it is their wording not mine.

Dead collection specimens are in fact a very favourable past time in the UK, and if they can not verify things correctly then they must submit them. So not me suggesting genocide, l assure you.

Let us hope that you premise inspection goes well eh? And not just the ways forwards into locating the first prosecution. But then l know five other people in your position with mostly birds, they too have received the same notification.

TBH there is not one piece of legislation available that does specifically state what they plan to do with live species. And that is my main argument.

Because of this and the lack of information dealing with this one subject in text format, l will continue to pick holes in the legislation.

But the document above is an official documentation do you not think it would be appropriate to stipulate what you are trying to say to me? So that the layman may understand.

And if animals are not to be disposed of Akua and you are denied a licence, well then , what? You face prosecution?

Despite applying for the licence?

Yet they still do not specifically point out anything to do with that either, nor what happens to the animals belonging to the prosecuted.

And if animals are not to be destroyed, and everything is dandy then why bother with the legislation that states prosecutions in the first place?

All they had to do was basically say 'ok' to Europe we will 'from this point in time, we will prohibit those species entering the UK' 

Akua, now that is something that can be stated simply, is it not?



Rory
PKL


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

I'm in the same boat, picking out what it all means! 
From what I've gathered, it is illegal to "Posess with intention to sell and trade" Yet simply keeping as pets with a licence is legal.

It is all one big mess and really doesn' seem thought out or clear at all.

You're doing your part very well, picking the key points that don't sound right and spreading awareness. People need to be aware and take it upon themselves to take action.

I admit, I am quiet but I research and document what I find in order to present at a later date when I am certain this is the case. That's why I am not very outspoken on the "Hobby Issues" sections.

Politics etc. is not my strong point, but in this day and age it's about voting for the lesser of 3 evils. 

I will continue to research etc. and share my findings.

With regards to my application for a licence being denied, I was made aware that I would be giving a notice to rectify the problem that denied me in the first instance, so perhaps enclosure size or something similar? After that however, is still uncertain, however they have clearly stated toroises kept as pets with appropriate article 10's are legal, however the licence is preferred.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

With regards to the EPS, it is not a way to eradicate all European species in Captivity, it is simply legislation to further prevent European Species being picked from the wild and imported. Something tortoise owners have been calling for hey?

I would have to disagree with this statement and suggest the contrary is true, the number of species on the EPS regs that are Annex A is less than 1%. The vast, overwhelming, majority of species and indeed specimens held are species that were entirely unregulated prior to the introduction of the EPS. Therefore it is impossible for people keeping these species to prove provenance – therefore they are deemed illegal. The only conceivable purpose for this is to eradicate these species from captivity. Further, Article 10’s are only required for specimens held for commercial purposes, so if you have recently purchased a tortoise as ‘a pet’ and disposed of the A10, where does this leave you know!


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