# Outdoor tub



## philo (Jul 7, 2009)

Hi, i went into a pet store today and they had koi there, the guy there told me to put my hand in the giant tub there was and they all suckedat my fingers, so i mooched around the shop and i saw these massive black tubs that they were keeping the koi in for sale, the biggest one was 175 pounds but i was wondering could you get it for cheaper on the net ? i cant find it so i was hoping some of you could help me. they are black, made out of some sort of plastic thingy and they have lines on the rim.

thanks in advance,

george


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## philo (Jul 7, 2009)

gotta go to school now see ya t`morrow


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Well firstly the guy shouldn't be encouraging people to put their hands into a vat of fish , but thats another story.....If you want a cheaper alternative look at water tanks ( the kind of things you have in the loft , big black plastic things ) , or plasterers mixing tubs , both available at builders merchants and online - check out ebay :2thumb:


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

they wont be large enough for koi long term. koi can grow to 3ft long, and are massive bulky fish that need very clean water with big filtration. i think its around 1000g per fish for koi to live to their full potential.

you can pick up the black koi vats cheap on ebay, but i would only keep goldfish in there (remembering the rule of 30g for the 1st goldfish, 20g for each fish after that, and allowing for them breeding every summer) if you didnt sink it into the ground, you would need to insulate it with something, i was going to use ploystyrene panels and then clad in wood but i felt so sorry for the fish when it got cold i sold it all :lol2:

personally, i wouldnt buy from a shop which encouraged people to dip their hands into the tanks though.


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## Tomcat (Jul 29, 2007)

Its 1000L per koi generally, not gallons 

But yeah, they deffinately wont be big enough for koi fully grown! They need huge ponds, with a depth of atleast 3 foot preferably.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

oops, hehehe just read up on it properly, some people say up to 1000g per adult koi but the minimum seems to be 250g-300g per adult koi. at least im not under-quoting the amount of water/space they need :lol2: i dont know much about koi, but the beautiful and massive koi pond i saw last year with huge adult fish around the 3' mark was awesome, i never knew they grew quite so huge :lol2: and to think my brother in law has a 8" koi hes had stuffed into a 40g tank for the past 10 years or more, it can barely swim its so badly stunted, so sad. no idea how its still going, but it must be a miserable life for the poor thing.


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Quote "oops, hehehe just read up on it properly, " Quote "i dont know much about koi,"Goldie ,don't take this the wrong way , but , If you haven't had any hands on experience with a species either in your private collection or through working with them professionally you shouldn't be giving out advise on their care and husbandry ( water tanks are fine for SMALL koi , I and several breeders I know use them for growing on purposes , viewing and treating sick koi , ditto plasterers mixing tubs ) .In another thread you commented that Clown Loach weren't suitable for a 4 foot x 2 foot x 2 foot tank .... a small group of 4-6 clowns bought at say 1.5" would be perfectly happy in a tank that size , and would reach a size of about 7" relatively quickly , after the 7" mark their growth rate slows considerably and it would take them many years to grow to the 12" you stated. Many Clowns max out at 8"-10" , it's a rare Clown that makes it to the 12" mark ! If you want to see a 12" Clown Loach Google Emma Turner and the late , great Marge ......I see from your signature that you're keeping danios with Silver Dollars , I don't know how big your Dollars are , but when they get to full size your danios are going to start disappearing .....


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## millie_moo (Oct 31, 2008)

http://www.paddockfarm.co.uk/product.asp?PID=1270

or i've seen them in holly bush garden centre for £150. i've been looking at them for my turtles  just saw the title on the main page. i'll disappear back to shelled now lol


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

lionfish said:


> Quote "oops, hehehe just read up on it properly, " Quote "i dont know much about koi,"Goldie ,don't take this the wrong way , but , If you haven't had any hands on experience with a species either in your private collection or through working with them professionally you shouldn't be giving out advise on their care and husbandry ( water tanks are fine for SMALL koi , I and several breeders I know use them for growing on purposes , viewing and treating sick koi , ditto plasterers mixing tubs ) .In another thread you commented that Clown Loach weren't suitable for a 4 foot x 2 foot x 2 foot tank .... a small group of 4-6 clowns bought at say 1.5" would be perfectly happy in a tank that size , and would reach a size of about 7" relatively quickly , after the 7" mark their growth rate slows considerably and it would take them many years to grow to the 12" you stated. Many Clowns max out at 8"-10" , it's a rare Clown that makes it to the 12" mark ! If you want to see a 12" Clown Loach Google Emma Turner and the late , great Marge ......I see from your signature that you're keeping danios with Silver Dollars , I don't know how big your Dollars are , but when they get to full size your danios are going to start disappearing .....


I think that this is a tad unrequired. The general consensus is a 6' tank for clowns and in shoals of at least 6 for them to truly thrive, so I too would say that they are unsuitable for a tank that size. 

With regard to the koi, I'm not speaking on behalf of the op, but he's still at school... I know that there are exceptions, but I'm doubtful a teenager would be able to fund a several thousand litre system as the koi grow, when he's looking for cheaper alternatives to a tub. He's not looking to treat them or grow them on, so the tub is in this case unsuitable, as Goldie pointed out.

There's nothing wrong with looking at the bigger picture, and I for one don't think 1000l is enough for an adult koi. Ø140cm x 90cm deep Fish Pond / Reservoir (1000L Capacity) that to me seems far too small. 

Goldie is a respected member on here, and ALWAYS has the welfare of the fish in mind before all else.


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Misquoting something you once read in a book is NOT good advice . Goldie commented on Jaguar Cichlids the other day saying they need "Partial water changes" ( she admitted never having kept them and her advice was based on what she read in a book ) . One day she is going to give someone some crap advice , they are going to act on it and their fish fish are either going to suffer or die as a result . I keep colubrids ( Corns & Kings ) and Boa's but I wouldn't dream of giving out advice on a thread about say Green Tree Pythons or retics , because I wouldn't want to give out wrong/incorrect information and have an animal suffer as a result .


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

lionfish said:


> Misquoting something you once read in a book is NOT good advice . Goldie commented on Jaguar Cichlids the other day saying they need "Partial water changes" ( she admitted never having kept them and her advice was based on what she read in a book ) . One day she is going to give someone some crap advice , they are going to act on it and their fish fish are either going to suffer or die as a result . I keep colubrids ( Corns & Kings ) and Boa's but I wouldn't dream of giving out advice on a thread about say Green Tree Pythons or retics , because I wouldn't want to give out wrong/incorrect information and have an animal suffer as a result .


I don't know if you quoted that wrongly, but what's there is correct...


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

The quote is correct , somehow it got mangled  The way she phrased it in her original post made it sound as if small water changes are sufficient with that species . When I kept Jaguar Cichlids I did big water changes and went for over filtration as they , like oscars make a lot of mess  Anyway we're going off topic


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## philo (Jul 7, 2009)

he didnt encourage me to do it, he just said if you want to, plus i know how large koi can get, its just temporary until he is large enough to goin the big pond with the other fish


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

philo said:


> he didnt encourage me to do it, he just said if you want to, plus i know how large koi can get, its just temporary until he is large enough to goin the big pond with the other fish


Hi Philo , sorry for taking your thread off topic mate  As a temporary measure keeping a small koi like that would be fine , it's also good practice , in that you're quarantining him from your main collection, so if he did have anchor worm , gill flukes or the dreaded KHV virus you wouldn't be passing it to your other fish . What other koi have you got mate ? ( just curious cos I keep em too )


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## philo (Jul 7, 2009)

mainly bekko and sanke but 2 large kohakus ( ifi spelt it correct )


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

I have a mixture of Oranjees ( spelling ?!) , Doitsu , Platinum Ogon , Shushi , , Tancho . I had a lovely ghost koi that I lost as well 8-(


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## philo (Jul 7, 2009)

how big was the ghost as the biggest i have seen was around 6 inches and that was the one that sucked at my finger first :2thumb: i felt as if i could gobble him up


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

About a foot long mate , as a general rule ghosts grow bigger than coloured koi , they're a throw back to the wild carp that koi were originally bred from . What happened was koi breeders used to throw them away , in any spawning of koi there will always be a number of throwbacks , that is fish that look like the original wild carp - what are now known as ghost koi , but sometime in the 1980's someone started keeping them and selling them and now people keep them , although koi purists wuldn't keep them in the same pond as "proper" koi


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## philo (Jul 7, 2009)

You know that their growth rate slows as they get to about a foot long, how much slower do they grow after that ? because my father has only bought fully grown adults for the large pond.


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## philo (Jul 7, 2009)

in japan isnt it good luck to keep 1 in the pond ? dont they call them nagasta or nagasari or something like that?


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

philo said:


> You know that their growth rate slows as they get to about a foot long, how much slower do they grow after that ? because my father has only bought fully grown adults for the large pond.


It depends on a combination of factors really .The genetics of the parents - big parents produce big babies , if you ever read koi magazines you will see koi offered from "Jumbo Blood Lines" , the temperature has an effect as well , do you have a pond heater ? What you feed/quality of food and how often effects growth rates too - silk worms are like chocolate bars to koi ! Stocking density/ratio and filtration both play a role . So it's a mix of all these factors that effect a fishes growth , although obviously koi will grow more in the spring / summer as their metabolism speeds up .


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

philo said:


> in japan isnt it good luck to keep 1 in the pond ? dont they call them nagasta or nagasari or something like that?


Yes you're right it is considered lucky in Japan to keep one dark coloured fish , I just looked it up in my koi book an all black koi is called a karasugoi . IF you want a good book on koi get this one "The Interpet Encyclopedia of Koi" .


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

You have a PM , it's the e mail address of a friend of mine . He writes for PFK , Practical Fishkeeping Magazine and is a fish show judge , he used to work on a fish farm and knows LOADs more about fish than anyone I have ever met .


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

wow, some people are touchy on here hey! i have read a lot on koi, through various internet forums etc. i havent kept them before as the largest pond i could afford was only 250g. ive seen full grown adults in a massive koi pool in someones back garden, they had extreme filtration and the fish were huge and seemingly happy. the op never mentioned it being short term, and from what i have read and been told 1000g per *adult *koi was the recommended set-up. one day i hope to have my own koi pool, but i wouldnt keep them in a smaller pond/tub/vat just to say i own them and hope their growth slows and can make the set-up they require to grow to their full potential and thrive.

as for the clown loach thing, ive seen many very large clowns in peoples homes and at the aquatics centers, none at a foot long but a few up to 9-10" and even at that i wouldnt have kept them in a 4ft tank. they need plenty of space and like to be in groups, 4ft IMO simply isnt large enough.

my silver dollars have zero issues with my danios and tetras, they have been in with them for a long long time, the dollars range in size from the smallest spotted guy at around 3", up to the largest at 7". most are above 5". not a single danio or tetra has been harmed, the dollars have a mixed varied diet, and are herbivores, they like plants, now when i drop a bunch of cabomba in the tank, yes they are killing machines :lol2: ive not lost a single fish in all the time they have been together.

jaguar cichlids, no i havent kept them, yes i do read up a lot form others who do have experience with keeping them, how else does everyone else learn? i dont see what the issue was with this one, they need regular partial water changes to keep their water in pristine condition, and are bigger quite messy fish so it may take more than 1 per week to keep on top of it. 

i never give out information that i do not believe to be beneficial to the fish in question. i would rather encourage people to keep fish in better conditions that will suit them for life, than hope they will upgrade in future and say yes those koi will be fine in that 4ft koi vat, yet not even ask if it is for life or simply for a quarantine period. the way i read the op it seemed he wanted to keep koi in a small pond, well too small for adult koi anyway. maybe i misinterpreted it. at the end of the day, i know when i was at school i could never have afforded a big koi pond with the much needed filtration, i was simply trying to give a little advice. as i said in my original post '*i think* its around 1000g for koi to live to their full potential', so any person with half a brain would then go to research some more or wait for someone with more experience to reply. i was just saying they grow to huge sizes, and for long term care and keeping they will need more than a a plastic tub IMO.


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Goldie , leave the lad alone , if he wants to overwinter / grow on a few small ghosties it really WON'T hurt them ! I and many people I know have done the same with no ill effects , ( I say several as I wouldn't advocate keeping one on it's own as they are a sociable species).

Reading a book , memorising bits by rote , then repeating them Ad Infinitum , isn't offering advice , it's being a parrot , learning through somones elses mind and regurgitating their ideas and opinions . At best it's intelluctually lazy , at worst plaugerism.

Advise is when you impart information based on your OWN experiences ( not someone elses ). 

He knows his koi varities and has a large pond to put them in in the spring , so as long as he uses a  filter and does water changes it isn't a problem and the fish WILL be fine .


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## philo (Jul 7, 2009)

lionfish said:


> Goldie , leave the lad alone , if he wants to overwinter / grow on a few small ghosties it really WON'T hurt them ! I and many people I know have done the same with no ill effects , ( I say several as I wouldn't advocate keeping one on it's own as they are a sociable species).
> 
> Reading a book , memorising bits by rote , then repeating them Ad Infinitum , isn't offering advice , it's being a parrot , learning through somones elses mind and regurgitating their ideas and opinions . At best it's intelluctually lazy , at worst plaugerism.
> 
> ...


 Thankyou :2thumb:


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

lionfish said:


> Goldie , leave the lad alone , if he wants to overwinter / grow on a few small ghosties it really WON'T hurt them ! I and many people I know have done the same with no ill effects , ( I say several as I wouldn't advocate keeping one on it's own as they are a sociable species).
> 
> Reading a book , memorising bits by rote , then repeating them Ad Infinitum , isn't offering advice , it's being a parrot , learning through somones elses mind and regurgitating their ideas and opinions . At best it's intelluctually lazy , at worst plaugerism.
> 
> ...


In Goldies defence, I too read the op in the exact same way! There was no mention of a pond for the Springtime when the fish had grown. I don't think that she was attacking the op either... simply having the best intentions for the fish at heart.


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## philo (Jul 7, 2009)

the pond is massive you cant say that i didnt mention it as i said...


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## philo (Jul 7, 2009)

philo said:


> You know that their growth rate slows as they get to about a foot long, how much slower do they grow after that ? because my father has only bought fully grown adults for the *large pond*.


 there


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

philo said:


> there


After Goldie had commented...


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

lionfish said:


> Goldie , leave the lad alone , if he wants to overwinter / grow on a few small ghosties it really WON'T hurt them ! I and many people I know have done the same with no ill effects , ( I say several as I wouldn't advocate keeping one on it's own as they are a sociable species).
> 
> Reading a book , memorising bits by rote , then repeating them Ad Infinitum , isn't offering advice , it's being a parrot , learning through somones elses mind and regurgitating their ideas and opinions . At best it's intelluctually lazy , at worst plaugerism.
> 
> ...


Im really confused as to why you think im having a go at anyone, what do you mean by leave him alone? I also dont see why you are attacking everything i write. You seem to be quite childish and determined to undermine everything i say,though for what reason im unsure. 

How can someone reading information, and commenting on what has been read over the years, be intellectually lazy? I have gained most of my fish keeping experience through reading, i was successfully keeping and breeding fish before i started talking on these forums and letting people know my own experiences with certain species. I always make sure if i am not 100% sure on something i write that i let the OP know this so they do their own further research. If im sure of something, i write that, if not, i dont. 

I never give out information which will harm/stress the fish. I always have the animals best interests in mind.


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

You're missing the point , in that you're telling him not to do something , based on opinions you have formed through reading other peoples ideas/work/opinions.

You're not telling him not to do it because you tried it and failed e.g "I tried doing that once and it went wrong because...." You're saying "Don't do it because I'm telling you not to because of what I've read" . Whereas I KNOW for a FACT it can be done quite successfully , as I have done it myself and know other people who have and continue to do so on a regular basis.


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

goldie1212 said:


> I have gained most of my fish keeping experience through reading,
> 
> 
> ^^^THIS^^^ , I'm not having a pop at you just pointing out that what you're telling him isn't based on personal hands on experience , rather opinions you have formed from reading other peoples ideas . You yourself admitted that you've never kept koi . There is a qualatitive difference between theory and practice .


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## philo (Jul 7, 2009)

this section is really slowmoving


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

So what's the situation , how are your koi and did you get some small ghosties to grow on ?


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

I'm guessing all of these are far too small by the signs of all the drama in this thread but ...

Trading Depot - Plumbing Supplies & Heating Supplies/Water Tanks and Insulation Jackets/Water Tanks


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

I'd go for the 50 gallon rectangular one , that would be fine for 2 or 3 SMALL fish ....now watch someone else telling him differently


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## philo (Jul 7, 2009)

i got 3 3 inch ghost koi and now they are around 4-5 inch i got the biggest tub i could find around and im waiting until they are about 8 ish inches


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Good stuff ....pics ?!


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## philo (Jul 7, 2009)

lost the camera leading to the computer, theyre in a temporary tub until i get one of the massive laguina ones i was talking about


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## philo (Jul 7, 2009)

I know this was last year, thought I would bring it up, the ghosts are doing fine all three are around a foot now and in the big pond, i will get some old photos up but they will be of the construction of the pond not the pond now so there will be quite a difference to how it looks now, also if you don't already know I got into a new school so I will have more time to look after my zoo, ciao, 
George


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Glad it worked out for you  As it happens I'm growing on / over wintering 3 small koi indoors in a tub at the moment before they go in the pond in the spring , a ghost koi , a yamabuki ( yellow ogon ) and an orange Doitsu which is gonna be a monster at current growth rates !


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