# The pups



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

I thought I'd better post a pic of the pups. One of them is tiny. She stopped growing at 2 weeks old. In every other aspect she is perfectly normal. She eats, sleeps and plays like the rest do but is minute. Here is a pic I took this afternoon when they were being fed.
I've named her 'Minnie' aka 'Little Min'. Since I'm not sure that she won't have health issues later in life, I don't feel that I can rehome her so she will be staying with me.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww fenny they are adorable :flrt::flrt:

the white ones are just gorgas :flrt::flrt::flrt:


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## FoxyMumma (Jun 29, 2008)

Awwwwwwwwwwwww! I didnt know you'd had pups Fennie! What breed are they?, theyre gorgeous little things!:flrt:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

ohh my the little one is tttiiinnnyyyyy........


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

They are my 'lha-chis' First cross lhasa apso crossed with chihuahua. What Schip calls 'mongrels' because she doesn't understand the difference between mongrels and cross breeds :lol2:
The 2 white ones already have homes booked.


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## elle1331 (Mar 19, 2007)

Aw look at the wee bums :flrt: and i would be keeping the small one too just cos she is a fighter. Have you any more pictures of Minnie and the other pups please?


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## FoxyMumma (Jun 29, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> They are my 'lha-chis' First cross lhasa apso crossed with chihuahua. What Schip calls 'mongrels' because she doesn't understand the difference between mongrels and cross breeds :lol2:
> The 2 white ones already have homes booked.


:flrt:Theyre so scrummy, I just wanna squish em and give em snuggles! :blush: Ooooohhhh I wants em all :flrt:


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

there goujrous fenny!! so cute! love there colours! and great mix of breed!


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

They are a bit gorgeous aren't they?:flrt:
I'm going to try to get individual photos of them all at some point in the day as they all look different. As usual I have been snowed under with enquiries for them but am taking my time and sifting through to find the best homes possible.


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## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> They are my 'lha-chis' First cross lhasa apso crossed with chihuahua. What Schip calls 'mongrels' because she doesn't understand the difference between mongrels and cross breeds :lol2:
> The 2 white ones already have homes booked.


 the mini one obviously got all the chi:lol2: bless her
puppys are just the best thing in the world! so sweet shame they have to grow up :flrt:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Oddly enough her bigger brothers and sisters seem aware that she is teeny and never play rough with her. If she decides to swim in the dinner, they all lick her clean and dry when they go back to bed. And look how they are leaving space for her at the dish. Odd eh?


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## elle1331 (Mar 19, 2007)

Awww that's so sweet, they are just looking out for her. It sounds as if you already have a wee soft spot for her anyway fenny lol


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Oh God a puppy love rush:flrt::flrt::flrt: As usual gorgeous babies. How tiny is little Minnie, if she was mine Id keep her too. Face pics ASAP Please


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

I have soft spots for them all. I love puppies.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Oh God a puppy love rush:flrt::flrt::flrt: As usual gorgeous babies. How tiny is little Minnie, if she was mine Id keep her too. Face pics ASAP Please


 I would weigh her but I can't find the scales. Will try to do some 'full frontals' tomorrow. She is not the prettiest out of them all but definately has 'presence'.


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## elle1331 (Mar 19, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> I have soft spots for them all. I love puppies.


yup me too but im afraid i would fall in love with wee minnie. 
If and when we breed Angel i know im going to be a nightmare when the pups go to their homes.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

elle1331 said:


> yup me too but im afraid i would fall in love with wee minnie.
> If and when we breed Angel i know im going to be a nightmare when the pups go to their homes.



I am awful when it comes to selling them. I am just soooo fussy where they go. I give every enquirer the 3rd degree and am happy to tell people that they are not the kind of people I am looking for for my puppies. I'd rather offend someone than be polite and place a pup in a less than 100% perfect home and spend months worrying about it. I also make the new owners sign a contract that they will bring the dog back to me if at any age and for any reason, they can no longer keep it. If you are choosy, have some criteria and stick to your guns, even though it is hard saying goodbye to them, you can be sure you've done your best for them.
One of my own criteria is that I never sell to people with children under 6. Of course all parents of younger kids tell me how marvellous their child is and how it is so good with animals. But I have seen and heard of too many bad thing happening at the hands of very small children so I will not budge. I won't sell to people in rented accommodation unless they have written permission from their landlord, or in flats, or those who go out to work all day and if someone mentions they will be keeping it in a cage in order to force it to become housetrained, they don't get one either. And they are also told that when they come to view the pups, if either of us isn't happy, no sale will happen.
I consider it to be my responsibility to make sure they get permanent, sensible and loving homes.
I must do something right because a couple of vets have bought my pups in recent years and at least 3 trainers and a behaviourist and one lady who ran a dog hydrotherapy place. The fact that they understand how I work and like the way I rear my pups means a lot to me.
Hence my not advertising the puppies on here. My criteria would be the same and I think people who I like or know, would get very offended if I refused to let them buy a pup because I wasn't happy that they could offer what I want for them.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Emma, you should get one as a friend for your lil scruff! hehe


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Gorgeous pups, but my God Minnie is tiny!! I'm with you on her though, I wouldn't let her go, cos you just never know if she might have problems later in life.


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## elle1331 (Mar 19, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> I am awful when it comes to selling them. I am just soooo fussy where they go. I give every enquirer the 3rd degree and am happy to tell people that they are not the kind of people I am looking for for my puppies. I'd rather offend someone than be polite and place a pup in a less than 100% perfect home and spend months worrying about it. I also make the new owners sign a contract that they will bring the dog back to me if at any age and for any reason, they can no longer keep it. If you are choosy, have some criteria and stick to your guns, even though it is hard saying goodbye to them, you can be sure you've done your best for them.
> One of my own criteria is that I never sell to people with children under 6. Of course all parents of younger kids tell me how marvellous their child is and how it is so good with animals. But I have seen and heard of too many bad thing happening at the hands of very small children so I will not budge. I won't sell to people in rented accommodation unless they have written permission from their landlord, or in flats, or those who go out to work all day and if someone mentions they will be keeping it in a cage in order to force it to become housetrained, they don't get one either. And they are also told that when they come to view the pups, if either of us isn't happy, no sale will happen.
> I consider it to be my responsibility to make sure they get permanent, sensible and loving homes.
> I must do something right because a couple of vets have bought my pups in recent years and at least 3 trainers and a behaviourist and one lady who ran a dog hydrotherapy place. The fact that they understand how I work and like the way I rear my pups means a lot to me.
> Hence my not advertising the puppies on here. My criteria would be the same and I think people who I like or know, would get very offended if I refused to let them buy a pup because I wasn't happy that they could offer what I want for them.


You sound like the breeders we got our Angel off, we haven't got the 'papers' for her until we get all relevant checks done to make sure she is good enough to breed and if we end up not wanting to breed her they will keep the papers until Angel is neutered, we also signed papers that stated if any tests come back and there is something wrong with Angel we are not allowed to breed which is fine. They will also source a male for her if we do decide to breed her but that is up to us. They want a pup off Angel to keep the lines as Angels mother has been done and we also have another 4 homes who would like a pup, the checks we had to go through were just like yours and at times it felt like we were criminals and not just people who wanted one of their dogs lol I know im going to be the same and i know that i will be keeping the pedigree papers off any pups that my dog has had. I think that if more people made stipulations and had rules set in place for their pups there wouldn't be as many dogs in kennels looking for homes.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

It can be difficult Elle. As you said, you felt like criminals. Some people get offended and don't like the fact that I want to find out about them. That's fine with me. If someone feels that there is some aspect of their home life that they want to hide, I'm more than happy to tell them to look elsewhere for a pup. My sole responsibility is to my puppies, nobody else.
Angels breeder sounds like a very caring and responsible person and no doubt you'll have heaps of support from her if you do decide to breed and that's good.
What breed is Angel?


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## elle1331 (Mar 19, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> It can be difficult Elle. As you said, you felt like criminals. Some people get offended and don't like the fact that I want to find out about them. That's fine with me. If someone feels that there is some aspect of their home life that they want to hide, I'm more than happy to tell them to look elsewhere for a pup. My sole responsibility is to my puppies, nobody else.
> Angels breeder sounds like a very caring and responsible person and no doubt you'll have heaps of support from her if you do decide to breed and that's good.
> What breed is Angel?


Yes the breeders of Angel are fantastic and phone regularly and ask how she is doing and when Angel was sick they even came to the vets to see how she was lol they are amazing people and fantastic dog owners. Angle is a Bull mastiff and is still at that dopey age so i personally don't think she is ready for pups yet but we shall see. Its a big commitment to breed your pets and not only is Angel not ready but i don't think we are either.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Isn't it rather irresponsible to breed cross-breeds when rescue centres are full to the brim with these sorts of dogs in desperate need for homes?


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

your puppies are gorgeous fenwoman. i cant wait to see the face pics. and minnie is such a wee sweety.


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

elle1331 said:


> I know im going to be the same and i know that i will be keeping the pedigree papers off any pups that my dog has had. I think that if more people made stipulations and had rules set in place for their pups there wouldn't be as many dogs in kennels looking for homes.


You don't need to keep the papers - the KC allows breeders to place breeding restrictions on the dog for exactly this reason - yes idiots will still breed it but can't be registered so is the same as without papers. Just costs a few pounds more per puppy.


Cute little ones in the original pic


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

Minny is tiny! Are these from the same bitch as the last puppies? I always got told you shouldn't breed a bitch that often? Not having a go just genuinely interested.: victory:


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## MELINDAGIBSON (Sep 8, 2007)

they are all gorgeous well done to you and mummy dog :2thumb:


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## temerist (Feb 1, 2009)

dont know much about either breed unfortunatly, but is there any health tests that either of the breeds have? if there is are they both health tested? not digging at you in anyway its just i heard once that the health tests are only relevant if you breed the same breed, and that if you cross 2 different breeds even if both the parents are health tested it doesnt mean anything for the pups. not sure if that makes sence or if i got my question across lol, ill try an example - if you breed 2 L2/HGA clear and HC and PHPV clear staffs to eachother then the pups will be clear by birth, but if you put a health tested staff to say a health tested english bull terrier then the pups wouldnt be clear by birth even with the same health tests.

is this true?

gorgeous puppies btw, wish i could have one but with 10 very large dogs id be very nervous for a small puppy.


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

I had a pup like that once. I took her and her brother and sister from the pound. She was 1/4 of the size of them and I really didnt think she would make it (she looked like a little bug) but I took her to give her a fighting chance. We had a couple of iffy months with her, but then she grew strong and turned into the most stunning little girl (fit and healthy no long term problems) I hope it will be the same with your little one.


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Isn't it rather irresponsible to breed cross-breeds when rescue centres are full to the brim with these sorts of dogs in desperate need for homes?


Colin i realllly dont think you can say that Pam is being irresponsible one little bit! NOT at all! 
Do you look upon cross breeds as less then? Im sure if you have read this post fully you'll see that Pam has very strict vetting systems in place for when she does rehome her puppies, and if they EVER need to be rehomed they will come back to Pam, NOT a rescue, so no i dont think it is ''rather irresponsible'' for Pam to have bred them at all.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

farmercoope said:


> Colin i realllly dont think you can say that Pam is being irresponsible one little bit! NOT at all!
> Do you look upon cross breeds as less then? Im sure if you have read this post fully you'll see that Pam has very strict vetting systems in place for when she does rehome her puppies, and if they EVER need to be rehomed they will come back to Pam, NOT a rescue, so no i dont think it is ''rather irresponsible'' for Pam to have bred them at all.


No Joe, I don't see cross-breeds as 'less', but personally I would only breed from breeds of dog that either aren't that common, or that there is a big demand for. Staffordshire Bull Terriers for example! They are everywhere & they are now one of the most common breeds in rescue centres. So I wouldn't breed Staffys. Boston Terriers on the other hand, I would love to breed in the future. There is only one registered rescue for Boston Terriers & thats in Preston! But there is never any Boston Terriers needing to be rehomed!


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

In my experience i wouldnt breed something that i didnt personally like as much as what i wanted to breed just because someone else is breeding them and they might not sell aswell, I breed poultry and wouldnt breed a rarer breed or colour just because someone else isnt, theres loads of buff orpingtons about, the shows are full of them, but if i was passionate about the breed i would still breed them, just because i breed as a hobby so I dont feel the need to breed something i can sell quick or whatever.
Just as im sure Pam does, if she likes the Lhachis as a breed then shes not going to get rid of them all and get somethign such as a boston which she may not be as devoted to as the Lhas just because they're rarer.


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## XoxOriptideOxoX (Jul 11, 2008)

what pups are they?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

farmercoope said:


> In my experience i wouldnt breed something that i didnt personally like as much as what i wanted to breed just because someone else is breeding them and they might not sell aswell, I breed poultry and wouldnt breed a rarer breed or colour just because someone else isnt, theres loads of buff orpingtons about, the shows are full of them, but if i was passionate about the breed i would still breed them, just because i breed as a hobby so I dont feel the need to breed something i can sell quick or whatever.
> Just as im sure Pam does, *if she likes the Lhachis as a breed* then shes not going to get rid of them all and get somethign such as a boston which she may not be as devoted to as the Lhas just because they're rarer.


'Lha-Chis' aren't a breed! They are a made-up name for a cross between a Lhasa Apso & a Chihuahua!


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> 'Lha-Chis' aren't a breed! They are a made-up name for a cross between a Lhasa Apso & a Chihuahua!


Agreed the world is going a little too mad for these fashioned mixed breeds at the moment.

Quite disgusting really how much peopel can make froma cross breed these days

But what can you do.


nice looking pups tho and cant wait for more pics, shame about the tiny one being so small but its good your keeping her.


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

temerist said:


> its just i heard once that the health tests are only relevant if you breed the same breed, and that if you cross 2 different breeds even if both the parents are health tested it doesnt mean anything for the pups


No crossbreed pups can get any disease or ailment that either parent can have so double worries ....


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> 'Lha-Chis' aren't a breed! They are a made-up name for a cross between a Lhasa Apso & a Chihuahua!


REALLLYY! SHOCKING!! Do you really think that little of my knowledge:Na_Na_Na_Na:
They are a cross between two pure breeds of dog which makes a crossbreed, notice the BREED its still a breed just a cross of two pure breeds! And if Pam likes that then who are you or anyone else to question the two breeds being put together to make a new breed with the best of both, shes not claiming them to be pure


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

farmercoope said:


> REALLLYY! SHOCKING!! Do you really think that little of my knowledge:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> They are a cross between two pure breeds of dog which makes a crossbreed, *notice the BREED its still a breed just a cross of two pure breeds!* And if Pam likes that then who are you or anyone else to question the two breeds being put together to make a new breed with the best of both, shes not claiming them to be pure


But it ISN'T a breed! Its a cross-breed!


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## FoxyMumma (Jun 29, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> 'Lha-Chis' aren't a breed! They are a made-up name for a cross between a Lhasa Apso & a Chihuahua!





Mischievous_Mark said:


> Agreed the world is going a little too mad for these fashioned mixed breeds at the moment.
> 
> Quite disgusting really how much peopel can make froma cross breed these days
> 
> ...


But if you look at it another way... all domestic dogs are crossbreeds...theyre all descendants from the original 'grey wolf' and have evolved to what they are today..

I have a crossbreed and I have a purebreed, yet I love them both just as much as eachother.

I think the fact Pam sets out guidelines for her puppies, their new owners are contracted to take them back to her if they should for any reason no longer want them anymore, and im sure if she didnt want to sell them she could quite easilly keep them all, shes not harming the rescue centres in anyway and is in fact breeding how anyone should breed, shame not half of the people who breed KC pups were as genuine as Pam.

I would have one of those pups tomorrow :flrt:, but alas I have a child under 6 so wouldnt fit into Pams criteria, Im fine with that and I can see where she is coming from to warrant that.


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

At the end of the day, who gives a poo what they are - they're well cared for, healthy, stable, cute, loved pups!

(and Fenwoman - there aren't anywhere near enough pics to keep us all happy yet - try about 50 more and you'll be getting close!)

Personally I've never had a dog before so although I'd love to help out a rescue, I'd have to be very careful about it as I have no previous experience at all. For my first dog I always figured I'd find someone like you with some responsibly bred and well reared pup to give me a fighting chance of getting it right, or a rescue from a foster that knew more about the dog than a rescue centre would do.

After that? I'd hope that if I wanted more with/after that then maybe I'd be ready for rescues and the possible problems that they bring. I just couldn't accept not being able to home a dog for life.


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

FoxyMumma said:


> But if you look at it another way... all domestic dogs are crossbreeds...theyre all descendants from the original 'grey wolf' and have evolved to what they are today..
> 
> I have a crossbreed and I have a purebreed, yet I love them both just as much as eachother.
> 
> ...


 
exactly just becxause they have been line bred and perfected for centuries, some more than others and some to extremes the fact is that they are still descended from them! They are still a breed of dog, just a cross breed, not a pure breed, Pam wont be registering them with the KC or saying there purebred. :bash:


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## FoxyMumma (Jun 29, 2008)

farmercoope said:


> exactly just becxause they have been line bred and *perfected* for centuries, some more than others and some to extremes the fact is that they are still descended from them! They are still a breed of dog, just a cross breed, not a pure breed, Pam wont be registering them with the KC or saying there purebred. :bash:


Shame some Purebreds have been line bred so blooming much that they've become less than perfect and are suffering from such painful problems:whip:.... I think id rather have a cross breed TBH, Im just glad the KC are starting to do something about it


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## FoxyMumma (Jun 29, 2008)

Ally said:


> *At the end of the day, who gives a poo what they are - they're well cared for, healthy, stable, cute, loved pups!*
> 
> *(and Fenwoman - there aren't anywhere near enough pics to keep us all happy yet - try about 50 more and you'll be getting close!)*
> 
> ...


Well said Ally, and yes I agree... but I think at least 100 pics or more...and with me snuggled in the middle of them all getting puppy snuggles!! lol :whistling2:


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

Ally said:


> At the end of the day, who gives a poo what they are - they're well cared for, healthy, stable, cute, loved pups!
> quote]
> 
> 
> ...


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

The pups look lovely, and it is very responsible, and of course, the only thing to do, to keep any pup that may be 'suspect' health wise, just as it is a minumum requirement to strictly vet any potential home and only home pups to those who the breeder feels can offer an excellent, stable, life-long home to any pup. It is also a minimum requirement to take back any pup (at any time in it's life) if the new owner cannot ever keep it for whatever reason. Just because plenty of (irresponsible!) breeders do not do this, it doesn't make doing it exceptional, it is what everyone should be doing if they are going to breed. 

I can't help though, but feel uncomfortable about deliberate cross breeding especially if health testing hasn't been carried out. And feeling especially uncomfortable about someone having more than one litter a year, or breeding fairly frequently. I do wonder as to to purpose of breeding so many litters, especially if one is not being kept back. I can't personally think of one ethical reason, but I am happy to be enlightened. 

Also, thinking that a breder is not/cannot add to the curent rescue crisis because they will take puppies back, is sadly not the case. The fact is that legally, once a pup is sold, it becomes the property of the new owners, and they do not have to return it to the breeder if they chose not to, even if they have signed a contract to state they will.


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## temerist (Feb 1, 2009)

have to say i dont personally agree with perposely cross breeding, and from what ive read on the forum if it first time or low poster who was advertising purpose bred designer dogs then they would have been slated. yes the pups are cute, and obviously well cared for, and they do have a good vetting process but it still comes down to the fact these "designer cross breeds" are peoples way of making more money from cross breeds.


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## temerist (Feb 1, 2009)

midori said:


> Also, thinking that a breder is not/cannot add to the curent rescue crisis because they will take puppies back, is sadly not the case. *The fact is that legally, once a pup is sold, it becomes the property of the new owners, and they do not have to return it to the breeder if they chose not to, even if they have signed a contract to state they will*.


sadly unless a contract is drawn up by a solicitor then they arent worth the paper they are printed on. if you sign a contract when u by a puppy and breach the contract the breeders can unfortunatly do nothing about


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

I have to agree with whoever said who gives a poo what they are they are healthy an loved an cared for 

at the end of the day a puppy is a puppy no matter what breed it is 

i have a huskamute here an i would purposly have another one anyday too he is a fantastic dog 

yes there are loads of puppies out there but fenwoman is very selective on who has her pups and she would keep the whole litter if she didnt find suitable homes i know that for a fact 

So she hasnt done anything irresponsible in my eyes because she is willing to keep any pups that dont get homed..................and she vets prospective owners an only lets pup go on agreement they go back to her if any circumstances change 

in my eyes thats responsible not irresponsible :2thumb:


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## Lucy_ (Jul 9, 2008)

temerist said:


> have to say i dont personally agree with perposely cross breeding, and from what ive read on the forum if it first time or low poster who was advertising purpose bred designer dogs then they would have been slated. yes the pups are cute, and obviously well cared for, and they do have a good vetting process but it *still comes down to the fact these "designer cross breeds" are peoples way of making more money from cross breeds*.


I dont think fenwoman has necessarily gone out of her wat to create some 'designer' dogs... and i am sure that she has not done it for the money... when you get someone who is as passionate about their animals as fenny is, money is not an issue and does not play a part.
from what i have read, and people have told me about her... she values her dogs more than anything... and would put them first over anyone and anything. and, if she didnt beleive they were going to go to good homes she would keep them all, so in effect she would be spending more money than making any as the keep of the dogs untill they find suitable homes, weather this is when they are 10weeks old, or 4years old, isnt going to be cheap. But like i said, unless they are going to good home, i think she would be MORE than happy to to pay for their upkeep for their forseeable future 

And as others have said, ALL dogs are cross breeds somewhere down the line, even if they are almost direct decendants from the wolf, they still arent pure... all dog breeds that people own are man made some way or another... do you see chiuwawas and labs running around in the wild??

At the end of the day, the lil pups are gorgeous and i have no doubt that they will either go to well cared homes, or fenny will keep them untill she does find somewhere suitable...

Lucy x


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Lucy_ said:


> I dont think fenwoman has necessarily gone out of her wat to create some 'designer' dogs... and i am sure that she has not done it for the money... when you get someone who is as passionate about their animals as fenny is, money is not an issue and does not play a part.
> from what i have read, and people have told me about her... she values her dogs more than anything... and would put them first over anyone and anything. and, if she didnt beleive they were going to go to good homes she would keep them all, so in effect she would be spending more money than making any as the keep of the dogs untill they find suitable homes, weather this is when they are 10weeks old, or 4years old, isnt going to be cheap. But like i said, unless they are going to good home, i think she would be MORE than happy to to pay for their upkeep for their forseeable future
> 
> And as others have said, ALL dogs are cross breeds somewhere down the line, even if they are almost direct decendants from the wolf, they still arent pure... all dog breeds that people own are man made some way or another... do you see chiuwawas and labs running around in the wild??
> ...


 
Think we posted at the same time Lucy lol but i totally agree with you hun :2thumb:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

The problem in rescues lies with irresponsible breeders not the likes of Fenny who treasures every moment with her puppies and a lifetime of aftercare for the new owners. She breeds for health and tempermant which imo is extremely responsible. At the end of the day small dogs either crosses or pedigrees are very desirable so surely people are better buying off someone like Fenny rather than a BYB whos only aim is to make money.:2thumb:


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## elle1331 (Mar 19, 2007)

I don't understand how people like fenny can get told she is irresponsible for breeding her much loved dogs and vetting the owners before she allows them to have one of he pups and still has stipulations if the new owners cannot keep it for any reasons. The old argument of cross breeding and look how many rescues dogs are in kennels and she shouldn't be breeding due to this but im sure the same people are not scouring the threads in snake/lizard classifieds saying the same thing. Look at the re-homing section on here, look at the breeding section on here and see how many people are given the same treatment. 
Pam has stated that she would keep all the pups if suitable homes are not sourced and will take back any pups if for any reason the owners cannot keep it so i don't see the big problem. If more people were as strict with the homes the puppies go to maybe there wouldn't be as many unwanted dogs in the kennels, these are the people that should be getting told how irresponsible they are and not a woman who is doing her best for her pups.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Shell195 said:


> The problem in rescues lies with irresponsible breeders not the likes of Fenny who treasures every moment with her puppies and a lifetime of aftercare for the new owners. She breeds for health and tempermant which imo is extremely responsible. At the end of the day small dogs either crosses or pedigrees are very desirable so surely people are better buying off someone like Fenny rather than a BYB whos only aim is to make money.:2thumb:


 
I agree, the majority of the rescue problem is down to iresponsible breeders, although not all of it, but what is the reason for breeding crossbreeds? There is no guarantee of what you will end up with, and there is already a pedigree breed suitable for anyone's needs. I'd also be interestd to know if the parents of these pups are health tested? 

The following is taken from "The Truth About Crossbred Dogs" by Michele Wilton: 

_No one really knows which characteristics a crossbred puppy will inherit. For any given trait, whenever a puppy inherits different genes from each parent, those genes may blend together into an "intermediate" result...or one of the genes may simply "trump" the other one.

In any crossbred puppy, you can't know for sure which traits will end up a blend of the two breeds, and which traits will end up with one trait trumping the other. Even if you know FOR SURE that the parents had typical genes for their breed, many of those genes will be conflicting. _


Also, I am pretty sure that some of those who are saying 'as long as the pups are well cared for it is OK' are some of those wo have slated people on other threads. 

Anyway, Fewomn onlyposted some pictures of her pups, so all this is a little unfair to her, although it is also an interesting and worthwhile subject, so maybe it would be better to start another thread?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Isn't it rather irresponsible to breed cross-breeds when rescue centres are full to the brim with these sorts of dogs in desperate need for homes?


 Full to the brim of Lha-chis? Show me where.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Andy said:


> Minny is tiny! Are these from the same bitch as the last puppies? I always got told you shouldn't breed a bitch that often? Not having a go just genuinely interested.: victory:


 Yes they are. I was very careless indeed and didn't have my mind on the ball what with all the renovations so yes, they had a litter only 8 months after the last. It should not have happened and ideally it would not have happened but it did. Mums and babies are fit and well. It will also be the last litters both mothers have as they are to be spayed in a couple of months time.
Ideally a bitch would have at least 12 months between litters however, I know some breeders will have another litter 6 months after the first if the first litter was a very small one. Usually they then get 18 months before the next litter. Mine will not have any more litters. They can both play auntie to future litters off other bitches. Both are exceptionally attentive mothers. Both fly through the pregnancies, and both have whelping started and finished within 2 hours and never one complication.
I would probably be the first to condemn someone having litters so close together and it isn't ideal but once I realised they were pregnant it was too late to do anything.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

farmercoope said:


> Colin i realllly dont think you can say that Pam is being irresponsible one little bit! NOT at all!
> Do you look upon cross breeds as less then? Im sure if you have read this post fully you'll see that Pam has very strict vetting systems in place for when she does rehome her puppies, and if they EVER need to be rehomed they will come back to Pam, NOT a rescue, so no i dont think it is ''rather irresponsible'' for Pam to have bred them at all.


 Ach don't worry about it Joe. Colin is having a hissy fit as he is annoyed with me for condemning him because he leaves his new dog in a cage all day long and think that's cruel, so now he is behaving like a big prima donna and is being spiteful about me whenever he can. I take no notice of it cos I can't abide a drama queen (pardon the pun).


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Out of my 11 dogs 6 are crossbreeds(all rescued accidents) and I have never had one with any health problems and they are all 6 years and above now. Small dogs are very desirable and if you check out rescue centres you would be very lucky to find one in care as they are snapped up immediately. If people want to breed crosses and its done in a responsible way I dont have a problem its when pups get advertised with no health tested parents etc etc and they are a breed that is common in rescue centres


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> 'Lha-Chis' aren't a breed! They are a made-up name for a cross between a Lhasa Apso & a Chihuahua!


 Is a lurcher a breed?


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> Is a lurcher a breed?


Huskamutes aint either but they still get advertised on classifieds as if they are :lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

midori said:


> The pups look lovely, and it is very responsible, and of course, the only thing to do, to keep any pup that may be 'suspect' health wise, just as it is a minumum requirement to strictly vet any potential home and only home pups to those who the breeder feels can offer an excellent, stable, life-long home to any pup. It is also a minimum requirement to take back any pup (at any time in it's life) if the new owner cannot ever keep it for whatever reason. Just because plenty of (irresponsible!) breeders do not do this, it doesn't make doing it exceptional, it is what everyone should be doing if they are going to breed.
> 
> I can't help though, but feel uncomfortable about deliberate cross breeding especially if health testing hasn't been carried out. And feeling especially uncomfortable about someone having more than one litter a year, or breeding fairly frequently. I do wonder as to to purpose of breeding so many litters, especially if one is not being kept back. I can't personally think of one ethical reason, but I am happy to be enlightened.
> 
> Also, thinking that a breder is not/cannot add to the curent rescue crisis because they will take puppies back, is sadly not the case. The fact is that legally, once a pup is sold, it becomes the property of the new owners, and they do not have to return it to the breeder if they chose not to, even if they have signed a contract to state they will.


 Both bitches have only ever had 3 litters in their lives and are 5 years old now. As stated, they will be spayed. And yes, I have so far kept apup from each litter. The first being 'Baby Daisy', the second litter I actually kept 3 and from this litter Minnie.
I hardly think that a bitch having 3 litters in her life could be classed as excessive. How many does the KC allow purebred breeders to have? Isn't it 5?
As to the contract, it was drawn up with advice from my animal loving solicitor. Yes it is legally binding just as someone paying full whack for a pedigree dog who finds the papers are endorsed, so is in fact the same as buying without papers as you aren't able to show, breed or take with you if you move abroad. If it wasn't legally binding, the KC would still register pups from endorsed bitches.

At the end of the day, the fact that you, Colin or anyone else is 'uncomfortable' with my breeding my bitches, is not my concern. I'm really quite uninterested in your opinion. I know I do a good job. I'm doing nothing illegal or immoral. My pups have at least a good start if not better that a lot of purebred dogs from so called 'respectable' breeders. In fact I know some very high up people in the dog world who are outright money grabbing crooks.
Nor do I give any credence to Colin insisting that only rare breeds of dogs should be bred from. If this is the case, why is he considering breeding his chihuahua bitch?
The truth is that I like this cross. Others like this cross.If a vet has bought one of my past litters and others have gone to dog trainers, behaviourists and the like,then I must be doing something right. As it is, I get many more enquiries than I have pups so I'm able to sift through. Perhaps it would be fine if I bred purebred puppies of some very expensive rare breed? Maybe that would make it acceptable? Or maybe is nobody bred dogs at all, and everyone who wanted a cute small family dog, went to rescue centres and got themselves a staffy cross or rottie cross or jack russell cross or any number of the large problem dogs in rescue. Nobody should have any choice, they should be dictated to by sanctimonious do gooders who insist that only rescue dogs are worth having.
Luckily, people do have a choice, and if one of my lha-chi pups is their choice, they get in touch with me and get carefully vetted.
In 30 years of breeding dogs, not one of mine has ever ended up in rescue or had to come back to me, and many of the owners have kept in touch from the whole of the dog's life.
You feel 'uncomfortable' with my breeding? Oh dear. Poor you.Never mind.


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

Lucy_ said:


> At the end of the day, the lil pups are gorgeous a


No one could argue on the cuteness factor (even if we only saw bums)


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> Yes they are. I was very careless indeed and didn't have my mind on the ball what with all the renovations so yes, they had a litter only 8 months after the last. It should not have happened and ideally it would not have happened but it did. Mums and babies are fit and well. It will also be the last litters both mothers have as they are to be spayed in a couple of months time.
> Ideally a bitch would have at least 12 months between litters however, I know some breeders will have another litter 6 months after the first if the first litter was a very small one. Usually they then get 18 months before the next litter. Mine will not have any more litters. They can both play auntie to future litters off other bitches. Both are exceptionally attentive mothers. Both fly through the pregnancies, and both have whelping started and finished within 2 hours and never one complication.
> I would probably be the first to condemn someone having litters so close together and it isn't ideal but once I realised they were pregnant it was too late to do anything.


 
Ok, so you had an entire dog, that was alowed to mate an in season bitch who had had a litter less than a year peviously, without you knowing, and you didn't recognise any signs of pregnancy until it was too late (so after 6 weeks) to do anything about it? 

You are honest, at least, no-one can fault you for that. 

Maybe you can clarify which of the following dogs ar the parents of this litter? 

_I have:
Ursa (see picture) Newfie X rottie. 18 months
Urian-lurcher. 9 years
Kate-tibetan spaniel 11 years
Diva- shih-tzu 10 years
Bronnie-tibetan X lhasa {daughter of Kate.6 years
Dorcas-tibetan X lhasa {daughter of Kate. 6 years

Baby Daisy-chi Xlhasa Xtibetan {daughter of Bronnie.18 months

William, Feather and Popsy chihuahua X lhasa X tibetan {offspring of Bronnie and Dorcas and grandbabies to Kate. 8 months
Aslan- chihuahua and father to William, Popsy and Feather.2 years

Chalky-terrier cross (put out of a car outside my cottage). unknown age but estimate about 5 years

Patty-cavalier. 3 years
Blossom-Cavalier.8 months
Queenie-cavalier.18 months (all Patty's daughters).
Ellie Cavalier who lost an eye and is looking for a new forever home..3_ _years
Twinkle-yorkie. 12 years_

It also seems from the dogs you listed that you bed your cavalier at 18 month old, yet the breed club reccomend that bitches under two years should not be bred from due to SM, which cannot be fully tested/scanned for until two years. 

Yet people insist you are responsible?! 

What is your reason for breeding?


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Well they aint my dogs but i would say 

bronnie & dorca mums.........................aslan is dad :whistling2:


and this was an accidental litter 

she bred in the past as people had enquired about pups..............


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> If it wasn't legally binding, the KC would still register pups from endorsed bitches..


Sadly people can and do sometimes get their litters from endorsed dogs registered - against the wishes of the breeder


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

midori said:


> I agree, the majority of the rescue problem is down to iresponsible breeders, although not all of it, but what is the reason for breeding crossbreeds? There is no guarantee of what you will end up with, and there is already a pedigree breed suitable for anyone's needs. I'd also be interestd to know if the parents of these pups are health tested?
> 
> The following is taken from "The Truth About Crossbred Dogs" by Michele Wilton:
> 
> ...


 The grandparents of the pusp were PRA tested before they were bred and both mothers were also tested annually for PRA since this is the most common problem in Lhasas. The purebred chi stud dog which I won has not been tested for anything, but I know his breeder well and she shows and has had the breed for some years now and all are hale and hearty.
Granny and grandpa are in full health as are both mothers and as have been previous litters. Are you really suggesting that I would breed from less than healthy stock?
When I bred and showed standard poodles in the 1980's, all my breeding stock was hip scored , and in those days, HD wasn't much of a problem in the breed and it was rare for breeders to hip score, but I did at £200 a pop. Breeding from unsound or unhealthy stock is counter productive. For a start unhealthy parents produce unhealthy youngsters (that goes for dogs, goats, poultry or anything else I choose to breed). Given that I do insist on a legally binding agreement being signed, do you really think I'd breed from unhealthy parents, and deliberately want to end up possibly having a dog back with health issues which I'd end up spending more money on in vet bills?
I bred a litter of first crosses. That leaves a bad taste in some people's mouths.Mainly either those who think that nobody should breed anything, or those purebred owners who only think purebred dogs are worth having. Since I have openly stated my terms and critera and since most people will know that my animals are always my first priority, it seems as though some people are trying to find some reason to disapprove of the fact that I bred my bitches. So now we have covered health issues, my strict vetting procedure and the fact that all of my dogs live in the house and are my pets. I guess the only reason to disapprove is because they are crossbred. Therefore saying inasmuch that crossbred dogs aren't worth the air they breath and only purebred are fit to live?


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Emmaj said:


> Well they aint my dogs but i would say
> 
> bronnie & dorca mums.........................aslan is dad :whistling2:
> 
> ...


Well, if that's he case, they are not lhasa x chi's, but mongrels. Hence, I felt that may not be the case. 

I a suprised at all the outrage over Pedigree Dogs Exposed, and the poor cav and the idiot breeder on there who bred from her carrier dog, and yet someone who cannot have carried out appropriate tests is deemed responsibe. 

However, in the style of Fenwoman, I guess some people will only asnwer the bits they have an answer for. 

If this was any other poster, they would be slated.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

midori said:


> Well, if that's he case, they are not lhasa x chi's, but mongrels. Hence, I felt that may not be the case.
> 
> I a suprised at all the outrage over Pedigree Dogs Exposed, and the poor cav and the idiot breeder on there who bred from her carrier dog, and yet someone who cannot have carried out appropriate tests is deemed responsibe.
> 
> ...


 
but didnt fenwoman honestly say if it had been anyone else she would have slated LOL 

So you having a hissy fit at her is really only humouring her and not gonna get you anywhere 

at the end of the day shite happens as shite does so why get ya knickers in a twist over it lol :lol2:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Oh an just to add LOL any x breed is a mongrel :lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

midori said:


> Ok, so you had an entire dog, that was alowed to mate an in season bitch who had had a litter less than a year peviously, without you knowing, and you didn't recognise any signs of pregnancy until it was too late (so after 6 weeks) to do anything about it?
> 
> You are honest, at least, no-one can fault you for that.
> 
> ...


Excuse me???
And why exactly do you think that I have to clarify myself to you or anyone?



> It also seems from the dogs you listed that you bed your cavalier at 18 month old, yet the breed club reccomend that bitches under two years should not be bred from due to SM, which cannot be fully tested/scanned for until two years.


 Oh dearie me. I should be tarred and feathered by the animal rights brigade :lol2: 





> What is your reason for breeding?


 and what concern is that of yours? 
You seriously need to get off your high horse lady. You may think you have a right to know this that or the other, or to pass comment or make a judgements. Here's news for you. You have no right at all. You are simply spouting off for whatever reason.I take it you aren't interested in my dogs, their welfare, what it costs me to feed them, the vet bills, how often I worm them, what diet they have? So what gives you the right to demand to know anything about them?
As far as I'm concerned, you are a nobody, a busybody and someone who likes to sit in judgement. So butt out lady and stop spoiling the thread.
I posted a picture of my pups to show how tiny Minnie was. You don't like the picture? You don't like the pup? you don't like me? No biggie. Just s:censor:d off out of it then.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Emmaj said:


> Well they aint my dogs but i would say
> 
> bronnie & dorca mums.........................aslan is dad :whistling2:
> 
> ...


 Nahhhh Ursa is the dad and Kate is the mum.:lol2:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> Nahhhh Ursa is the dad and Kate is the mum.:lol2:


 
yeps minni is deffo gonna be just like her dad :whistling2::lol2::lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Emmaj said:


> yeps minni is deffo gonna be just like her dad :whistling2::lol2::lol2:


<s******s>
Her whole head is the size of one of his eyeballs.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> <s******s>
> Her whole head is the size of one of his eyeballs.


 
Bless her she is like a lil bean :flrt::flrt:


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## elle1331 (Mar 19, 2007)

Any chance of some more piccys please pam?


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

elle1331 said:


> Any chance of some more piccys please pam?


 
Ooooooo i deffo second that one elle :flrt::flrt::flrt:


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## elle1331 (Mar 19, 2007)

Emmaj said:


> Ooooooo i deffo second that one elle :flrt::flrt::flrt:


yups they are beautiful wee things, just need some more puppy broodiness tho lol


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## meanvixen (Apr 8, 2008)

aww bless there so cute, would love to see some more pics, dont you just love puppy breath :flrt:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

As far as I can see Fennys dogs are her life and if you ever read any of her many posts you would know this already. Why shouldnt she do something she enjoys, her dogs aren`t milled out and she takes the utmost care in all aspects of breeding.So they aren`t Pedigree but who cares, I know if I was in a position to own another dog I would most definately approach Fenny as I find her pups extremely appealing (prob wouldnt meet her standards though as Im a townie:lol2 A lot of these small breed crosses are actually nicer than the similar pedigrees.

More photos please of your stunning pups I for one am a great fan of them:notworthy:


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> Excuse me???
> And why exactly do you think that I have to clarify myself to you or anyone?
> 
> 
> ...


I think your replies speak for themsleves really. You ask in one post if I _really think_ that you would breed without completing health tests appropriate for the breed, but it seems you have done so, as Cavs can't be properly tested as either affected or carrier for SM until two years old. That is not an animals rights issue, it is a welfare one. SM is an extremely serious and debilitating condition, usually leading to the dog being put to sleep. 

Perhaps all your 'supporters' would like to directly say that not testing for this illness is responsible? 

I may well be a nobody to you, and that is fine. You're entitled to your opinion just like everyone else. You can always hit the ignore button, that's why it is there...


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I think in fairness Fenwoman is not one to beat around the bush and will post on other peoples threads if she thinks something is amiss so she cant really complain too much if someone does it to her!:2thumb:


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

I don't have a problem with someone breeding a litter of desireable crossbreeds. The health testing is a whole other issue though. 
I can understand an accidental litter because it happened to me when I was 20 and didn't know what I was doing.


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Gorgeous pups. So are the mums Tibetan Spaniels x Lhasa apso's then? And the dad a chi? If so they're not classed as crossbreeds are they? I thought a crossbreed was a dog with purebred parentage but 2 x different breeds. So a Lhasa Apso & a chi, but not a Lhasa Apso x tibetan x chi...or is that wrong? :? Or is there a pure bred Lhasa thats been missed off the list Midori posted?

Just curious more so than anything, as that's what I always thought a crossbreed was, and a mixed-breed/mutt/mongrel was 3 or more breeds in the parentage.

Either way they're very sweet and we need more pictures, especially of the teeny tiny one.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Ach don't worry about it Joe. *Colin is having a hissy fit as he is annoyed with me for condemning him because he leaves his new dog in a cage all day long* and think that's cruel, so now he is behaving like a big prima donna and is being spiteful about me whenever he can. I take no notice of it cos I can't abide a drama queen (pardon the pun).


Excuse me! As I said in the other thread, my puppy is in her crate for 4-5 hours. That, unless I am mistaken, is not all day long! Pull your head out of your arse & take a look at the real world!


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Cute pics Fenny  I know diddly squat about the technical side of doglets - other than they require worming, fleaing, feeding, cleaning up after, training and so on.....

More pics pleaseeeeeeeeeee specially of the dinky Minnie 

(can I ask one of my dumb Q';s please though  Could Minnies size be to do with her being an accidental litter or due to the 3 breeds being in the mix? I don't know anything as I say and am truly curious nothing more hun )


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

has minny seen a vet as she is tiny, just wondered if they knew why she isn't growing? I'm not getting at you but a puppy should be growing allot more than that unless they is something wrong hereditary or whatever!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Excuse me???
> and what concern is that of yours?
> You seriously need to get off your high horse lady. You may think you have a right to know this that or the other, or to pass comment or make a judgements. Here's news for you. You have no right at all. You are simply spouting off for whatever reason.I take it you aren't interested in my dogs, their welfare, what it costs me to feed them, the vet bills, how often I worm them, what diet they have? So what gives you the right to demand to know anything about them?
> As far as I'm concerned, you are a nobody, a busybody and someone who likes to sit in judgement. So butt out lady and stop spoiling the thread.
> I posted a picture of my pups to show how tiny Minnie was. You don't like the picture? You don't like the pup? you don't like me? No biggie. Just s:censor:d off out of it then.


 
Pot......kettle........ :whistling2:


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Excuse me! As I said in the other thread, my puppy is in her crate for 4-5 hours. That, unless I am mistaken, is not all day long! Pull your head out of your arse & take a look at the real world!


my mums dogs all 20 odd of them r in cages when she goes out if she is at a show it will be for about 6 hours-8hours if she is going in for best in show, but they like going in there cages they have clean beddin every 2-3 days water bowls on the side of the cages and she knows they are all safe. this is the main point at lest he knows his dog is safe when he is not there. 

everyone has there opinions n maybe they should be put in a nice way if fenny dont agree with the way colin looks after his dog then so what it works for him, n colin dont agree with fenny havin a litter thats life. 

what i get from the thread is that this was an accident? why wasnt the bitch given the pill u can give to bitches when they have had an accidental matin? or why wasnt she spayed? all my mums bitchs are now all done (bar 2) yes it cost n arm n a leg but she dosnt have to worry about the bitchs being off with each other when in season n dont have to worry about any accidents. the 2 bitches that are not done she shows n they live in the front room with a one eyed rescued male maltese terrier that has been done the other bitches in the front room have also been done. however these will get done when older n they will not be havin a litter.

they are lovely little dogs in the pic but arnt they all even the ones in rescue. will u be gettin ur bitch done fenny with the money from the pups?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Both bitches have only ever had 3 litters in their lives and are 5 years old now. As stated, they will be spayed. And yes, I have so far kept apup from each litter. The first being 'Baby Daisy', the second litter I actually kept 3 and from this litter Minnie.
> I hardly think that a bitch having 3 litters in her life could be classed as excessive. How many does the KC allow purebred breeders to have? Isn't it 5?
> As to the contract, it was drawn up with advice from my animal loving solicitor. Yes it is legally binding just as someone paying full whack for a pedigree dog who finds the papers are endorsed, so is in fact the same as buying without papers as you aren't able to show, breed or take with you if you move abroad. If it wasn't legally binding, the KC would still register pups from endorsed bitches.
> 
> ...


And you know this how???


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Andy said:


> I think in fairness Fenwoman is not one to beat around the bush and will post on other peoples threads if she thinks something is amiss so she cant really complain too much if someone does it to her!:2thumb:


 I have no problem with criticism. What has happened here though isn't just criticism. It is plain old bitchiness. I mean, what right does anyone have to demand to know which was the mother and father, or to demand to know whether or not the pups or parents are health rested. Had I placed a for sale ad on here, I would expect those sorts of questions but since I didn't, I can't see what business it is of anybody to demand to know.
There is the one stalker type who took the time and trouble to trawl through all of my posts in order to find a list of the dogs I mentioned that I had. That would have taken some time to do. Does that say reasoned criticism to you ? To me it says a witch hunt. No matter that I have strict vetting procedures, no matter that I keep at least one pup from each litter. No matter that I have only had 3 litters. No matter that the parents are health tested. No matter that I insist each new owner signs a legal agreement drawn up by my solicitor which states that the dog must come back to me in the event of it having to be passed on. No matter that they go fully weaned, wormed, innoculated and insured with care sheets diet sheet, a weeks supply of food and a bit of the bedding it has slept on. None of those things matter because <shock horror> I deliberately produced a litter of cross bred puppies <gasp>
So reasoned debate and criticism, I am more than happy to have directed at me but this rabid hatred and determination to find me lacking in some way as a human being is quite something else.
I can take it as I'm arrogant enough not to give a stuff about what the likes of Midori thinks, but someone less hard nosed might be terribly upset by the plain nastiness this thread has taken.
However, I will not ask for it to be closed and will not report anyone for sh1t stirring or trying to cause trouble. Instead I'll put up some more pictures of the puppies. It'll be tomorrow though cos my camera batteries went dead and I hadn't got any charged and ready to go.
I would be most interested to hear why Midori thinks she has any business demanding that I answer her questions or why she thinks she needs to ask about my puppies in any way. Is she a breeder of purebred dogs who can't find enough good homes for them? Or perhaps she is one of those shrill anti breeding brigade fanatics.
Come on Midori M'dear. Spill yer guts. Literally if you've a mind to. I really won't mind a bit :lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> And you know this how???


 why do you want to know?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> my mums dogs all 20 odd of them r in cages when she goes out if she is at a show it will be for about 6 hours-8hours if she is going in for best in show, but they like going in there cages they have clean beddin every 2-3 days water bowls on the side of the cages and she knows they are all safe. this is the main point at lest he knows his dog is safe when he is not there.
> 
> everyone has there opinions n maybe they should be put in a nice way if fenny dont agree with the way colin looks after his dog then so what it works for him, n colin dont agree with fenny havin a litter thats life.
> 
> ...


 again all these questions and again, what business is it of yours?
If I chose to breed from the first season to the last with no health testing, no vetting just pooking out puppies and selling to anyone with the money, what business is it of yours?
I know you think your mother is a paragon of dogdom but shame on anyone who locks dogs in a cage for 8 hours. I have never left my dogs for that length of time during the day. If I know I'm needed elsewhere for more than a few hours, I wait until they are all settled and asleep for the night, and then I go out which is why I end up coming home at 2 or 4am if someone needs my help. And my dogs are perfectly safe as my whole house and garden has been made safe for my dogs so that I don't need to cram them in cages for hours on end because the rest of the place is dangerous.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> why do you want to know?


Because you stated that not one of your puppies has ever ended up in rescue! How do you know this?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Excuse me! As I said in the other thread, my puppy is in her crate for 4-5 hours. That, unless I am mistaken, is not all day long! Pull your head out of your arse & take a look at the real world!


 My you are showing your true colours Colin. And to think I once classed you as a friend. With friends like you stabbing me in the back, I don't need enemies. Shame on you.:bash:
I said that I considered it cruel to keep a dog in a cage for hours on end and because I expressed an opinion on a thread which didn't even concern you or your bitch, you turned all your spite towards me and now I can't do a thing right in your eyes. Nice loyal friend you turned out to be.
In my eyes, I regard my firends as friends forever, even if they disagree with me, even if we have an arguement, they are still my friends. I'm not a shallow person or a fairweather friend and even if I disagreed with a friend, I'd stand by them no matter what, because that's what friends do. Thanks 'friend'.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Because you stated that not one of your puppies has ever ended up in rescue! How do you know this?


 It says so in my tarot cards.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> again all these questions and again, what business is it of yours?
> If I chose to breed from the first season to the last with no health testing, no vetting just pooking out puppies and selling to anyone with the money, what business is it of yours?
> I know you think your mother is a paragon of dogdom but shame on anyone who locks dogs in a cage for 8 hours. I have never left my dogs for that length of time during the day. If I know I'm needed elsewhere for more than a few hours, I wait until they are all settled and asleep for the night, and then I go out which is why I end up coming home at 2 or 4am if someone needs my help. And my dogs are perfectly safe as my whole house and garden has been made safe for my dogs so that I don't need to cram them in cages for hours on end because the rest of the place is dangerous.


When you showed standard poodles, didn't you have them on a grooming table hours on end (8 hours to prep a standard poodle to show)? Didn't you have them benched?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

To me a mongrel is a dog with unknown parentage and as Pam knows her puppies parentage that makes them crossbreeds. I say enough of the nastiness, this WAS a nice pleasant thread. How old are the pups Pam they really are gorgeous. Any chance little Minnie could have a liver shunt or a heart valve problem(cant remember the name but its were one of the valves doesnt shut off after birth and before anyone jumps on the bandwagon neither problem is anything to do with the breeding it can just happen to any puppy) Just a thought.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> My you are showing your true colours Colin. And to think I once classed you as a friend. With friends like you stabbing me in the back, I don't need enemies. Shame on you.:bash:
> I said that I considered it cruel to keep a dog in a cage for hours on end and because I expressed an opinion on a thread which didn't even concern you or your bitch, you turned all your spite towards me and now I can't do a thing right in your eyes. Nice loyal friend you turned out to be.
> In my eyes, I regard my firends as friends forever, even if they disagree with me, even if we have an arguement, they are still my friends. I'm not a shallow person or a fairweather friend and even if I disagreed with a friend, I'd stand by them no matter what, because that's what friends do. Thanks 'friend'.


Didn't I stand up for you & defend you when you were being attacked for having white boxer puppies put down? I did!

But when a supposed friend attacks me, I then know who & what those friends really are!


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## ownedbyroxy (Jan 27, 2009)

on a lighter note - i wont get involved (i'm not brave enough) - but.... *beautiful pups you have there no matter the breed ... * :flrt:
i'd love another pup - but think my bonnie may object to sharing me.. plus she way too big and bouncy - and stupid to be living with a likkle pup. daft mare lol. :whip:


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Cute: victory:.Why have you put two white guinea pigs in there with them :lol2: just joking :blush:.But they do look like guinea pigs from that angle.Is tiny one a fighter ? going strong.


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> To me a mongrel is a dog with unknown parentage and as Pam knows her puppies parentage that makes them crossbreeds. I say enough of the nastiness, this WAS a nice pleasant thread.



I wasn't being nasty in asking if they were classed as a crossbreed or a mixed-breed.I was curious. Like I say, i've always been told that a dog with purebred parentage but of 2 x different breeds is a cross-breed...but 3 or more breeds in the mix, regardless of known parentage is classed as a mixed-breed/mutt/mongrel. I wasn't trying to be funny I was genuinly curious. Also as there are 3 breeds would you call them lha-chi's or something else?


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

beautiful Pups !!!!
I love x breeds and have said for years that they are in general far healthier than their pedigree counterparts and finally it has been documented that mongrels are Far cheaper to 'run' than pedigree dogs, its well known that outcrossing improves vigor and dilutes genetic problems.
I have been involved in rescue for 25 years and have had dogs around me all of my 41 years, I have fostered well in excess of 100 dogs, bred a couple of litters of pups, always mucked in with family dogs, worked for a top west highland white breeder and crufts judge , been to puppy farms in wales, taken dogs from pounds on the 7th day just as the vet pulls in to destroy that weeks 'inmates' so I am not spouting from books and from other peoples opinions, I speak as I find and as a couple of generations of our family have found, and now we see articles in the Times and the Mail singing the virtues of the cross breed...........
in my very humble opinion the people who bang on about the heinous crimes of x breeding make themselves sound very anal, misinformed and snotty to put it bluntly.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

Katiexx said:


> I wasn't trying to be funny I was genuinly curious. Also as there are 3 breeds would you call them lha-chi's or something else?


Mongrels


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

wohic said:


> beautiful Pups !!!!
> I love x breeds and have said for years that they are in general far healthier than their pedigree counterparts and finally it has been documented that mongrels are Far cheaper to 'run' than pedigree dogs, its well known that outcrossing improves vigor and dilutes genetic problems.
> .



This is not fact - it is opinion which can be countered with other opinions but everyone is entitled to their own 


The healthiest dogs are those bred from healthy parents tested for health/ genetic problems who come from a long line of health dogs - no matter what the breed or mix.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

Zoo-Man said:


> When you showed standard poodles, didn't you have them on a grooming table hours on end (8 hours to prep a standard poodle to show)? Didn't you have them benched?


 rather different I think, when being groomed and benched they have companionship and affection, a far different scenario than a crated dog


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Katiexx said:


> I wasn't being nasty in asking if they were classed as a crossbreed or a mixed-breed.I was curious. Like I say, i've always been told that a dog with purebred parentage but of 2 x different breeds is a cross-breed...but 3 or more breeds in the mix, regardless of known parentage is classed as a mixed-breed/mutt/mongrel. I wasn't trying to be funny I was genuinly curious. Also as there are 3 breeds would you call them lha-chi's or something else?


They are 50/50 just involing two breeds so are crossbreed IMO.They most likly have a reconize wacky name.Not by the KC mind just by the public.Anything more than two breed is a mongrel IMO but they still make great pets.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Katiexx said:


> I wasn't being nasty in asking if they were classed as a crossbreed or a mixed-breed.I was curious. Like I say, i've always been told that a dog with purebred parentage but of 2 x different breeds is a cross-breed...but 3 or more breeds in the mix, regardless of known parentage is classed as a mixed-breed/mutt/mongrel. I wasn't trying to be funny I was genuinly curious. Also as there are 3 breeds would you call them lha-chi's or something else?


I know you wern`t hun I didnt aim it at you just a general comment. :2thumb:This is what I was brought up to believe which is why I said it. I suppose Fenny is entitled to call them what she wants. To me they are cute balls of fluff and if I could have one I wouldnt care what it was called:lol2:


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

JulieNoob said:


> This is not fact - it is opinion which can be countered with other opinions but everyone is entitled to their own
> 
> 
> The healthiest dogs are those bred from healthy parents tested for health/ genetic problems who come from a long line of health dogs - no matter what the breed or mix.



actually it is fact, documented FACT, taken from long and detailed studys which with a very simple google search you will find.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

wohic said:


> beautiful Pups !!!!
> I love x breeds and have said for years that they are in general far healthier than their pedigree counterparts and finally it has been documented that mongrels are Far cheaper to 'run' than pedigree dogs, its well known that outcrossing improves vigor and dilutes genetic problems.
> I have been involved in rescue for 25 years and have had dogs around me all of my 41 years, I have fostered well in excess of 100 dogs, bred a couple of litters of pups, always mucked in with family dogs, worked for a top west highland white breeder and crufts judge , been to puppy farms in wales, taken dogs from pounds on the 7th day just as the vet pulls in to destroy that weeks 'inmates' so I am not spouting from books and from other peoples opinions, I speak as I find and as a couple of generations of our family have found, and now we see articles in the Times and the Mail singing the virtues of the cross breed...........
> in my very humble opinion the people who bang on about the heinous crimes of x breeding make themselves sound very anal, misinformed and snotty to put it bluntly.


It isn't about cross breeding, it is about breeding frequent litters, from some parents who aren't heath tested, aren't old enough to be bred from or have had the proper health tests done, and breeding from a bitch more than once a year. (once a year is too often, IMO, but that is just my personal opinion) 

It may have been an 'accident', but someone with both entire bitches and dogs should know better.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

wohic said:


> rather different I think, when being groomed and benched they have companionship and affection, a far different scenario than a crated dog


I disagree! Being manhandled, having hair pulled, having electric clippers put in delicate places, etc is much more stressful than being in a crate.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

midori said:


> It isn't about cross breeding, it is about breeding frequent litters, from some parents who aren't heath tested, aren't old enough to be bred from or have had the proper health tests done, and breeding from a bitch more than once a year. (once a year is too often, IMO, but that is just my personal opinion)
> 
> It may have been an 'accident', but someone with both entire bitches and dogs should know better.


very well said :notworthy:


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## ownedbyroxy (Jan 27, 2009)

surely, as long as the pups ave been brought into this world by a caring person, with the best poss care (which seems apparent in other posts...) and the breeder will keep ALL pups that do not make it to their forever homes, it don't matter the breed? and also end of day this only a forum, someone could have as many dogs and litters as they want in the worst circumstances, if they are that determined, so surely the opinions of people on here wont change that? sorry if i'm wrong - and please correct me if you feel the need. 
fenwoman seems to look after and love her animals, so to me that is the most important thing but thats just my opinion. and end of day, opinions are like a:censor:s-holes - everyone got 1.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

With pedigree cats that have a small gene pool they outcross to another breed or even a x breed cat then mate the offspring back to the original breed this widens the gene pool and gives healthier kittens. The outcrossed kittens are called Variants NOT Moggys.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

wohic said:


> rather different I think, when being groomed and benched they have companionship and affection, a far different scenario than a crated dog


At the risk of sidetracking the thread, a dog on a bench at a show gets pestered by strangers, is frequently left unattended in a strange environment and is inadequately exercised for fear of spoiling the coat. Imagine what it must be like for a stud dog outside its own territory to be surrounded on all four sides by other males - it must be very stressful and cannot be compared to a dog relaxed at home in its own bed.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

I havent read the whole thread just this last page and i have seen the pictures.

A mongrel is the result of a breeding between two cross breeds.

Being in a crate for 8 hours a day is in my eyes cruel. The longest my dog is ever in her crate is 3 hours max. However with me being on maternity leave since sept and here till i now go back to work after the baby she now only sleeps in it at night which generally is around 5-6 hours but she only gets a decent night sleep when in her crate and she chooses when she goes in and if she needs to come out any sooner she will cry and we will respond.

I have on two occasions in my dogs lives left them alone for a very long period. I believe it was 11/13 hours however it was nesscesary and they did not suffer nor did they leave puddles although i was fully expecting them and i did not crate my little girl during this time.

The next long period of time they will be left is when i go in to labour and we have to leave them to go to the hospital although this will be as short as i can keep it. Leaving when i need to and coming back ASAP!!!! Or i will send my partner back to look after them. There is NO one we can trust to care for them in our absence.

Sadly some people do breed because they think it is best for the bitch, that she will miss it if she cannot do it at least once i do not believe fenwoman is part of this crowd.
Marina


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Didn't I stand up for you & defend you when you were being attacked for having white boxer puppies put down? I did!
> 
> But when a supposed friend attacks me, I then know who & what those friends really are!


i didnt agree with that one im affaid, the thing is fenny always posts on other peoples threads n finds fault with them n now it happenin to her she dont like it.

i do think it is good some of the points fenny makes but u seem to be havin alot of litters from what i gather from the thread, i mean come on 3 litters from a 5 year old bitch (or was it a few 5 year old bitches i cant remember :bashbut anyway if u breed them when they are 2 like u should thats a litter per season maybe with one season rest, i thought u would know better than to do this with ur knowledge of dogs. this is 2 much for the bitches.

yer puppy farms do worse but does this make it write for u, we could all go round having 3 litters off each of our bitches n use the excuse well puppy farms etc do worse.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> I have no problem with criticism. What has happened here though isn't just criticism. It is plain old bitchiness. I mean, what right does anyone have to demand to know which was the mother and father, or to demand to know whether or not the pups or parents are health rested. Had I placed a for sale ad on here, I would expect those sorts of questions but since I didn't, I can't see what business it is of anybody to demand to know.
> There is the one stalker type who took the time and trouble to trawl through all of my posts in order to find a list of the dogs I mentioned that I had. That would have taken some time to do. Does that say reasoned criticism to you ? To me it says a witch hunt. No matter that I have strict vetting procedures, no matter that I keep at least one pup from each litter. No matter that I have only had 3 litters. No matter that the parents are health tested. No matter that I insist each new owner signs a legal agreement drawn up by my solicitor which states that the dog must come back to me in the event of it having to be passed on. No matter that they go fully weaned, wormed, innoculated and insured with care sheets diet sheet, a weeks supply of food and a bit of the bedding it has slept on. None of those things matter because <shock horror> I deliberately produced a litter of cross bred puppies <gasp>
> So reasoned debate and criticism, I am more than happy to have directed at me but this rabid hatred and determination to find me lacking in some way as a human being is quite something else.
> I can take it as I'm arrogant enough not to give a stuff about what the likes of Midori thinks, but someone less hard nosed might be terribly upset by the plain nastiness this thread has taken.
> ...


So I have too much time on my hands... :lol2: Actually, I had ead the other thread previously, but if that makes me a 'stalker'...

I have been in 'my' breed for 6 years (owned dogs before that, crossbreeds mainly. In that time I have had one litter myself, all of which I had bookings for before the bitch was mated. I currently have a waiting list of 6, although my bitch will not be mated until at last the end of next year when I can keep a pup myself, and these people are happy to wait until then. I also have interest in puppies from a bitch I have no plans to breed from yet. And I am talking about from people knowledgable in the breed, not my Mum, Aunt and Joe Bloggs down the street. So, no I do not have problems finding homes for my puppies.


I don't feel I am 'demanding' to know anything. I am asking a question. It is an open from, and I have asked everything politely and you are obviously perfectly within your rights not to answer. I don't see why, if you have nothing to hide, you would even mind anyone asking? 

It seems to me that you are perfectly happy to ask questions of others, and question the motives of others, but don't like it when others do the same to you an so are now getting defensive and insulting to people, I can only assume because they have pointed out your failings and you don't like it. 

Breeding from a cav bitch without testing for SM is appalling and unforgivable IMHO. Someone with 30 years plus experience having an accidental litter is really quite shocking.

Feel free to 'demand' to know anyhing you like of me, and I will happily answer. I won't call it a witch hunt or bitchiness. Why?! Because I have absolutely nothing to hide.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> When you showed standard poodles, didn't you have them on a grooming table hours on end (8 hours to prep a standard poodle to show)? Didn't you have them benched?


 Good god no. I wouldn't dream of forcing a dog of any kind to stand on a table for 8 hours. If it took me 8 hours to groom one of my poodles, I think I'd not have bothered showing. I would bath 3 days before a show, then dry and brush out which took about an hour. Next day do all the clipping which was face, feet and hind quarters, and that took all of an hour. Then the next day do the scissoring which took around an hour. 
As for benching, well perhaps things were different back then as most of the time she was with me wandering about the show and only spent short intervals on the bench when she wanted to sleep, and when that happened, I stayed with her and rested too.


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## ownedbyroxy (Jan 27, 2009)

midori said:


> Breeding from a cav bitch without testing for SM is appalling and unforgivable IMHO. .


 
sorry - what is SM?? - have never heard of it - have never needed to really as i dont breed or anything - but will wonder otherwise..


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Its that disease of the brain that made the news recently because breeders were knowingly breeding bitches that had the condition and the puppies were dying in the new owners hands a few weeks later as a result.
It caused fitting and loss of mental ability to do anything.

Marina


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

midori said:


> So I have too much time on my hands... :lol2: Actually, I had ead the other thread previously, but if that makes me a 'stalker'...
> 
> I have been in 'my' breed for 6 years (owned dogs before that, crossbreeds mainly. In that time I have had one litter myself, all of which I had bookings for before the bitch was mated. I currently have a waiting list of 6, although my bitch will not be mated until at last the end of next year when I can keep a pup myself, and these people are happy to wait until then. I also have interest in puppies from a bitch I have no plans to breed from yet. And I am talking about from people knowledgable in the breed, not my Mum, Aunt and Joe Bloggs down the street. So, no I do not have problems finding homes for my puppies.
> 
> ...


 Well if I wanted to find that particular post, I wouldn't just remember exactly what date and on what thread it was posted. I'd have to trawl for it. Lucky you being able to remember and pinpoint it.

The breeder who's stud dog I used for my cavalier bitch at the time, went through the pedigrees with me and it was decided to go ahead since none of the dogs in the immediate background had got SM. Since the stud dog owner was someone well known and currently on the show circuit, I think she would be horrified and angry at your implication that she is in any way immoral.
Out of interest, what breed do you have? Only interested because I know that most of the people who want a nice happy healthy pet dog, will not wait for a year or so for it. They've already done the thinking about, the reading up and the planning and they've decided that now is the time.
Still different horses for different courses.
You breed and sell puppies, I breed and sell puppies. Who is to say whether either of us has the moral high ground and is superior to the other in any way.
Apart from a mild curiosity about what breed you keep, I don't want to know anything else. I don't have any interest in you at all I'm afraid. Heck I haven't even looked through your info to see what you have posted and which threads you subscribe to. I'm just not interested.


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

animal/lover said:


> sorry - what is SM?? - have never heard of it - have never needed to really as i dont breed or anything - but will wonder otherwise..



SM = Syringomyelia. Syringomyelia (SM) and the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel

Have a read of that ^


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> again all these questions and again, what business is it of yours?
> If I chose to breed from the first season to the last with no health testing, no vetting just pooking out puppies and selling to anyone with the money, what business is it of yours?
> I know you think your mother is a paragon of dogdom but shame on anyone who locks dogs in a cage for 8 hours. I have never left my dogs for that length of time during the day. If I know I'm needed elsewhere for more than a few hours, I wait until they are all settled and asleep for the night, and then I go out which is why I end up coming home at 2 or 4am if someone needs my help. And my dogs are perfectly safe as my whole house and garden has been made safe for my dogs so that I don't need to cram them in cages for hours on end because the rest of the place is dangerous.


 
u post on a public forum :bash: people will ask u questions, why do u not like the questions? if u have nothin to hide then u would answer them 

i just hope to god, u dont come back from ur short periods where u leave ur dogs 2gave n they are half eaten each other as they have attcked each other, as one has stood on the other made it yelp n one has gone over n attaked it, they are dogs for god sake they havnt got the brain of a human n when they start to fight u are not there to stop it n it gets out of hand. 

my mums goes to shows probably 3 a month, 2 other months but some months nothin at all just dogs train for 2 hours max every monday. i have alot of respect for my mum she has taught me alot n fetched me up to respect all animals, she is an amazin lady that loves all her animals. n i will shout it from the roof tops n i am not afraid to let everyone know how amazin i think she is. i dont know why it boths u so much because i am not afraid to talk about my mum n let people know how wonderful she is. 

also her house is very big so the dogs are not cramped she has a very large bedroom full of extra large dog cages that an akita could fit in so each dog is in total comfort. (edit my mums dogs are small, german spitz mainly but she also has some smalle breeds) 

ur dogs may be safe in the house n can not escape but they are not safe from each other. u wouldnt leave a room full of children n go out would u


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## ownedbyroxy (Jan 27, 2009)

Marinam2 said:


> Its that disease of the brain that made the news recently because breeders were knowingly breeding bitches that had the condition and the puppies were dying in the new owners hands a few weeks later as a result.
> It caused fitting and loss of mental ability to do anything.
> 
> Marina


 
OH MY GOD!!!! i must of missed that, cant believe that, that must be sooooo devastating to witness. sorry if i look stupid - or continue to, does it affect a particular breed? or can any breed be affected?? poor dogs / poor owners


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

animal/lover said:


> OH MY GOD!!!! i must of missed that, cant believe that, that must be sooooo devastating to witness. sorry if i look stupid - or continue to, does it affect a particular breed? or can any breed be affected?? poor dogs / poor owners



In case you missed the link I posted above Syringomyelia (SM) and the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> u post on a public forum :bash: people will ask u questions, why do u not like the questions? if u have nothin to hide then u would answer them
> 
> i just hope to god, u dont come back from ur short periods where u leave ur dogs 2gave n they are half eaten each other as they have attcked each other, as one has stood on the other made it yelp n one has gone over n attaked it, they are dogs for god sake they havnt got the brain of a human n when they start to fight u are not there to stop it n it gets out of hand.
> 
> ...


oh for goodness sake what piffle, by your standards everyone who owns more than 1 dog should crate them while they are unattended ............... sorry but that is just silly


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Only interested because I know that most of the people who want a nice happy healthy pet dog, will not wait for a year or so for it. They've already done the thinking about, the reading up and the planning and they've decided that now is the time.


Oh noooo I waited just over a year for Carrick, it was such a loong time but well worth the wait!


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Marinam2 said:


> Its that disease of the brain that made the news recently because breeders were knowingly breeding bitches that had the condition and the puppies were dying in the new owners hands a few weeks later as a result.
> It caused fitting and loss of mental ability to do anything.
> 
> Marina


 Syringomyelia. Yes it was highligthed on the BBC programme.
Certain lines carry it in greater numbers as some of the most popular stud dogs from a couple of decades ago had it and were widely used. The same with any popular stud dog in any breed which becomes a champion, then everyone wants to use him and he sires literally hundreds of puppies in a short space of time and so spreads whatever condition he has.
There are also different dregrees of syringomyelia and the one on the TV programme showed one of the worst cases.
What some people don't understand is, that as a breeder, in the eyes of the law, I am liable, just as any breeder is liable, if they sell a 'defective' product. i.e. a pup which has health problems. There have been cases in law where breeders have been sued for the cost of the pup and all the vet fees.
Just because I do not choose to impart with the world at large, every single aspect of my dogs, their breeding, and health, doesn't mean that I am churning out sick and deformed puppies as Midori seems keen to imply. 
In nearly 30 years of breeding from my dogs, not only have I never had one back (apart from holiday dogs) but not one has had any kind of health issue. If they had, I'm sure petplan would not be at all keen to let me sell them with insurance which I have done since the 1980's. Every single puppy I have ever bred, has gone with innoculations and insurance .If I churned out sick puppies and it ended up costing petplan money, do you imagine they'd want to let me offer their insurance? I don't think so.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Evie said:


> Oh noooo I waited just over a year for Carrick, it was such a loong time but well worth the wait!


 I have waited nearly a year for my first Tibetan spaniel but that was me and that was for a specific and hard to come by breed. However, I'm not most people, and neither are you I imagine. Most people who want a pet family dog as opposed to something quite specific, will not want to wait for a year for it once they decision has been made.


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## ownedbyroxy (Jan 27, 2009)

Katiexx said:


> In case you missed the link I posted above Syringomyelia (SM) and the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel


 
thanks. have just had a peek, gonna have a better look tomorrow wen more awake. and will only upset me prob and play on my mind if read it before bed. thanks tho for the link!


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> u post on a public forum :bash: people will ask u questions, why do u not like the questions? if u have nothin to hide then u would answer them


why would I? I have nothing to hide but I don't consider that it is anyone's business to poke their noses into ever aspect of my life.I still have nothing to hide and I still don't feel inclined to answer any questions I choose not to or to justify myself to complete strangers.



> i just hope to god, u dont come back from ur short periods where u leave ur dogs 2gave n they are half eaten each other as they have attcked each other, as one has stood on the other made it yelp n one has gone over n attaked it, they are dogs for god sake they havnt got the brain of a human n when they start to fight u are not there to stop it n it gets out of hand.


You would think wouldn't you that in over 30 years keeping a lot of dogs together, if this was likely to happen, it would have happened by now?
Yes they are dogs and thank goodness they aren't as aggressive as humans. Since I follow the pack heirachy theory, I know that the dogs all kno their place in the pack so are less likely to fight.
Can you tip a big sack of fresh bloody bones on the floor and all your dogs eat them without fighting? I can.



> my mums goes to shows probably 3 a month, 2 other months but some months nothin at all just dogs train for 2 hours max every monday. i have alot of respect for my mum she has taught me alot n fetched me up to respect all animals, she is an amazin lady that loves all her animals. n i will shout it from the roof tops n i am not afraid to let everyone know how amazin i think she is. i dont know why it boths u so much because i am not afraid to talk about my mum n let people know how wonderful she is.


So your mum is wonderful. It get a little boring however when she is held up as a paragon of dogs and that everything she does or has is so much better than anyone else does or has. Her dogs are better, they are kept in better cages where they are blissfully happy in several dog rooms in the house which are all spotlessly clean. Well wowie. I'm a normal human being with normal mud loving dogs who come and go as they please in the house or on my land. They doo the usual doggy things like tugging on a bit of rope, digging holes, chewing branches, chasing each other, gnawing bones, barking, they they come into the dog room and flop on the floor to snooze until it's time to play again. Poor poor dogs. :lol2:



> also her house is very big so the dogs are not cramped she has a very large bedroom full of extra large dog cages that an akita could fit in so each dog is in total comfort. (edit my mums dogs are small, german spitz mainly but she also has some smalle breeds)


So even her house is better than mine as I only live in a little old cottage. Oh goody, less for me to clean, if I bother to clean at all.



> ur dogs may be safe in the house n can not escape but they are not safe from each other. u wouldnt leave a room full of children n go out would u


 Errr. for a start I don't have lots of children. Don't particularly like children (with some exceptions) and if I did have as many children as I have dogs, then I probably would beggar off out of the house to get away from them. And lastly, my dogs are dogs. They aren't hairy humans or replacement babies, they are just dogs.And yes, I can leave them safely.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Thats a strange thing to say??? My dogs would never hurt each other, they are established in their pack.

Marina


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> Well if I wanted to find that particular post, I wouldn't just remember exactly what date and on what thread it was posted. I'd have to trawl for it. Lucky you being able to remember and pinpoint it.
> 
> The breeder who's stud dog I used for my cavalier bitch at the time, went through the pedigrees with me and it was decided to go ahead since none of the dogs in the immediate background had got SM. Since the stud dog owner was someone well known and currently on the show circuit, I think she would be horrified and angry at your implication that she is in any way immoral.
> Out of interest, what breed do you have? Only interested because I know that most of the people who want a nice happy healthy pet dog, will not wait for a year or so for it. They've already done the thinking about, the reading up and the planning and they've decided that now is the time.
> ...


 
I have Golden Retrievers, a very prolific breed. 3 people waiting are those who have already had pups from me, 2 are people who have had pups from my girls breeder, now retired, and one has seen the 'pup' I have here and wants a dog to show and work. All are happy to wait, as they want something specific. Those who want pups from the younger bitch (as I said, I have no plans to mate her as yet) breed and show and want something specific again. In turn, I waited 18 months for her, as I wanted a pup from a specific breeder with a specific bloodline. 

I am rathergobsmacked that abreeder of the experience you mention feels it is acceptable to go against breed club recomendations. Just because dogs are clear of Sm it doesn't mean they aren't carriers and that the pups couldn't be a carrier. It is because of breeders like this that the condtion has become so widespread. no better than the breeder on 'that programme' IMO.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> I have waited nearly a year for my first Tibetan spaniel but that was me and that was for a specific and hard to come by breed. However, I'm not most people, and neither are you I imagine. Most people who want a pet family dog as opposed to something quite specific, will not want to wait for a year for it once they decision has been made.


Carrick is just a border collie, I just felt happy with the breeder and her dogs. When I bought my GSD dog, I already knew the line I wanted and was lucky to get a puppy within 3 months, if i had had to wait, I would have waited. I am sure that the right kind of people would be willing to wait for the right dog- they should be at any rate. If dogs were more difficult to get, prospective owners would HAVE to have a long cooling off period before taking one on. 
You and I not being 'most people' has nowt to do with it. A dog worth having is worth waiting for and this idea should be encouraged. Making dogs easy to get because people won't wait is not really the best course of action.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

wohic said:


> oh for goodness sake what piffle, by your standards everyone who owns more than 1 dog should crate them while they are unattended ............... sorry but that is just silly


if u have read the thread correctly fenwoman brought up the cageing with zoo man, i gave n example n said what zoo man is doing is fine his dog is safe.

our family has experianced 1st hand 2 chi (my grans) that had ripped each other appart but were not dead n we had to wait for the vet to come to put them to sleep asap. they were only left for a very short time period n were both rescue mother n daughter n could not stand to be without each other. so after u have expeianced this u can then tell me what piffle n ur silly, but some how i dont think u will! remember these are animals u love like ur children 

i am not afaird to say what happened n if people read this n separte there dogs when they go out then great they are safe, but if they dont it dont bother me i know my dogs are safe n wont have to go throught what i experianced again.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> To me a mongrel is a dog with unknown parentage and as Pam knows her puppies parentage that makes them crossbreeds. I say enough of the nastiness, this WAS a nice pleasant thread. How old are the pups Pam they really are gorgeous. Any chance little Minnie could have a liver shunt or a heart valve problem(cant remember the name but its were one of the valves doesnt shut off after birth and before anyone jumps on the bandwagon neither problem is anything to do with the breeding it can just happen to any puppy) Just a thought.


 They are 5 weeks old now and I'll have them to the vet in the next couple of weeks for a thorough check up plus their first innoculations. I get this done before I invite anyone to look at them as you can't be too careful. I also spray their shoes with F10 as they enter the house and nobody is allowed to handle them :lol2:
Little Min is normal in all aspects. She is as active as her larger sibling and as vocal, she also eats like a trooper and wades right in if she thinks she isn't getting her share. She's just tiny. I reckon I should have named her Emma :lol2:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Evie said:


> Carrick is just a border collie, I just felt happy with the breeder and her dogs. When I bought my GSD dog, I already knew the line I wanted and was lucky to get a puppy within 3 months, if i had had to wait, I would have waited. I am sure that the right kind of people would be willing to wait for the right dog- they should be at any rate. If dogs were more difficult to get, prospective owners would HAVE to have a long cooling off period before taking one on.
> You and I not being 'most people' has nowt to do with it. A dog worth having is worth waiting for and this idea should be encouraged. Making dogs easy to get because people won't wait is not really the best course of action.


I agree I waited 2 years to get my working Cocker spaniels as I only wanted one from certain lines and a certain colour


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> why would I? I have nothing to hide but I don't consider that it is anyone's business to poke their noses into ever aspect of my life.I still have nothing to hide and I still don't feel inclined to answer any questions I choose not to or to justify myself to complete strangers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mmm, sounds familiar! :whistling2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Katiexx said:


> I wasn't being nasty in asking if they were classed as a crossbreed or a mixed-breed.I was curious. Like I say, i've always been told that a dog with purebred parentage but of 2 x different breeds is a cross-breed...but 3 or more breeds in the mix, regardless of known parentage is classed as a mixed-breed/mutt/mongrel. I wasn't trying to be funny I was genuinly curious. Also as there are 3 breeds would you call them lha-chi's or something else?


 Wayyy way back, according to my Tibetan spaniel book, both them, and lhasas were classed as one breed but with different coats. A bit like short haired, wire haired and long haired Dachshunds I suppose. Then at some point, they were deemed to be seperate breeds. So although the mothers are tibetan spaniel cross lhasa, they look like pure lhasa and to avoid confusion, since the father is a purebred chihuahua, I have called them lha-chis. I could have called them tibla-chis I suppose.
When I advertise them, I state that granny, mother, auntie, father and siblings from previous litters are all available for viewing. Anyone I choose to come and view, gets shown all the dogs and their relationship to each other is explained.So they are a mix of 3 pure breeds. A mongrel, according to the dictionary, is 'an animal with no discernable purebred parentage'. For thier own interest too if they buy a pup I make a print out of their family tree with photographs of their relatives as people said they like to show family and friends the make up of their pup.


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## FoxyMumma (Jun 29, 2008)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> if u have read the thread correctly fenwoman brought up the cageing with zoo man, i gave n example n said what zoo man is doing is fine his dog is safe.
> 
> our family has experianced 1st hand 2 chi (my grans) that had ripped each other appart but were not dead n we had to wait for the vet to come to put them to sleep asap. they were only left for a very short time period n were both rescue mother n daughter n could not stand to be without each other. so after u have expeianced this u can then tell me what piffle n ur silly, but some how i dont think u will! remember these are animals u love like ur children
> 
> i am not afaird to say what happened n if people read this n separte there dogs when they go out then great they are safe, but if they dont it dont bother me i know my dogs are safe n wont have to go throught what i experianced again.


Well to add my opinion...

I dont believe in caging a dog for that long, yes fine if its overnight when theyre asleep anyway, but for 5-8hrs during the day? no I dont agree with that I couldnt even leave a dog without human interaction for that long my dogs have never been left for more than 3 hrs without someone in the house.

And if two dogs are going to rip each other apart then they will do it with or without their pack leader there. Dog fights trigger off faster than a blink of an eye, I had a friend whos dogs ripped each other to shreds in front of 3 people all of whom couldnt pull them apart, they all ended up bitten and one of the dogs was ripped to shreds, the other is still alive but was left severely maimed. Im afraid you cant judge other people by what happened to your grans dogs. People have differnt ways of keeping animals, some people believe in keeping snakes in pairs where others know of their cannabalistic natures.

At the end of the day its down to the owner and what risks they are willing to take.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> why would I? I have nothing to hide but I don't consider that it is anyone's business to poke their noses into ever aspect of my life.I still have nothing to hide and I still don't feel inclined to answer any questions I choose not to or to justify myself to complete strangers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
yes n i have been crossin the road for 25 years n my mum over 50 they have never been hit but it could happen one day, its ok i dont mind ur ignorance, u do get so affensive when someone disagrees with u.

yes my mums home is lovely n clean but she wouldnt expect anythin else or lower her standards, if u chose to live in a dirty home thats ur problem, personally i wouldnt like it but when ur brought up in a clean enviroment u get used to it. 

no she dosnt give them bloody bones she gets chicken wings n gives them un cooked they all have one 2geva, but she is there so even if there was a kick off she could stop it.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Mmm, sounds familiar! :whistling2:


eh up zoo man, dont put my mum n fenny in the same boat, my is a lovely person that listens to others n dont spit her dummy out when some one dont agree with her :lol2:


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> Wayyy way back, according to my Tibetan spaniel book, both them, and lhasas were classed as one breed but with different coats. A bit like short haired, wire haired and long haired Dachshunds I suppose. Then at some point, they were deemed to be seperate breeds. So although the mothers are tibetan spaniel cross lhasa, they look like pure lhasa and to avoid confusion, since the father is a purebred chihuahua, I have called them lha-chis. I could have called them tibla-chis I suppose.
> When I advertise them, I state that granny, mother, auntie, father and siblings from previous litters are all available for viewing. Anyone I choose to come and view, gets shown all the dogs and their relationship to each other is explained.So they are a mix of 3 pure breeds. A mongrel, according to the dictionary, is 'an animal with no discernable purebred parentage'. For thier own interest too if they buy a pup I make a print out of their family tree with photographs of their relatives as people said they like to show family and friends the make up of their pup.



Ah see you learn something new every day, I wasn't aware they were classed as one breed. Thanks for that. Can't wait to see more pics of the little ones.:flrt:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> I disagree! Being manhandled, having hair pulled, having electric clippers put in delicate places, etc is much more stressful than being in a crate.


 I agree with that too. Anyone who pulls a dog's hair should be slapped.
Actually those electric clippers have a rather sopoforic effect. The blade gets pleasantly warm and it vibrates. When I used to groom professionally it was a pain when the dogs relaxed so much from the buzz and the vibration giving a massage that they dozed off as they stood, that I developed the knack of clipping as they lay fast asleep. My own dogs do just that but then I'm not as particular about thier style as they are only my pets and groomed for their comfort and not some judge's eye.
A trained groomer will be able to put those clippers in very delicate places without nicking the skin.And a good groomer is calm and confident and hence so is the dog. Being 'manhandled' as you put it will be no more that any dog would get when being brushed daily which all dogs should get, even short haired pet ones, purely for the fact that it sooths them and creates a bond and it is as relaxing as a massage for them. Which is why my lot are a complete pain if I'm brushing one of the dogs, as they all push in and shove body parts in my face and want to get in on the act.They like it.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

FoxyMumma said:


> Well to add my opinion...
> 
> I dont believe in caging a dog for that long, yes fine if its overnight when theyre asleep anyway, but for 5-8hrs during the day? no I dont agree with that I couldnt even leave a dog without human interaction for that long my dogs have never been left for more than 3 hrs without someone in the house.
> 
> ...


im not tellin people what they should n shouldnt do, u wont cage a dog, so what im not gona hate u for it lol

if u are the pack leader u can control ur dogs with u voice if the dogs we keep do anythin out of order we dont have to use contact we just raise our voices, the dogs arnt in cages at night as my mum is there n can hear what the dogs r doing, if she hears a growl she wakes up straight away n shouts they stop it straight away.


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## temerist (Feb 1, 2009)

might be mistaken but if the mum is a lhaso x and the dad is a chihauhau, then arent you falsely advertised but saying they are first cross "lha-chis"?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

temerist said:


> might be mistaken but if the mum is a lhaso x and the dad is a chihauhau, then arent you falsely advertised but saying they are first cross "lha-chis"?


please refer to a previous reply.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

temerist said:


> might be mistaken but if the mum is a lhaso x and the dad is a chihauhau, then arent you falsely advertised but saying they are first cross "lha-chis"?


 This thread isn't an advertisement : victory:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Wow, I'm totally flattered. I post a photo of my puppies and the thread has 145 replies.:2thumb:
Didn't realise the photo would be so popular.
Will post more tomorrow.


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## FoxyMumma (Jun 29, 2008)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> im not tellin people what they should n shouldnt do, u wont cage a dog, so what im not gona hate u for it lol
> 
> if u are the pack leader u can control ur dogs with u voice if the dogs we keep do anythin out of order we dont have to use contact we just raise our voices, the dogs arnt in cages at night as my mum is there n can hear what the dogs r doing, if she hears a growl she wakes up straight away n shouts they stop it straight away.


My friend was the pack leader, shes a dog trainer... her dogs didnt stop that time, for her or for the two blokes trying to drag them off each other, sometimes if a dog is gonna go its gonna go no matter what.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Didn't get an answer to my Q 

Hope Minnie is okay when she gets her vet check Fenny and look forward to more pics


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

FoxyMumma said:


> My friend was the pack leader, shes a dog trainer... her dogs didnt stop that time, for her or for the two blokes trying to drag them off each other, sometimes if a dog is gonna go its gonna go no matter what.


yer so why risk it leavin them 2geva also when ur not there, its just added risk IMO

what breed were they?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

brittone05 said:


> Didn't get an answer to my Q
> 
> Hope Minnie is okay when she gets her vet check Fenny and look forward to more pics


 Soz. Minnie is OK now. She's just tiny. Her dad is a chihuahua so that might have something to do with it, or she could just be the runty one. Will know more when Dave checks her and the others over. Apart from nbeing really tiny, she is normal in every way and eats like a horse.
Her being tiny is nothing to do with the unplanned mating as her brothers and sisters were also unplanned.She's just teensy. I bet she turns out to be a complete little horror when she grows up.:lol2:


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

She is lovely  My aunt's mate used to breed pure chi's and she had a little male - actually called Mickey!! - who was like your Minnie and he did really well with her as a family pet


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

Cant wait to see more pics Pam!! And hey wonder how many posts youll get upto with even more pictures!! haha. This thread is still great in the fact that it shows peoples real personalities and my opinion on some people has seriously been lowered, anyway wont go into that just cant wait for more pics!:2thumb:


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

well i must be a terrible owner too, cause i dont use crates. the only time i used one was when my jack russell was just home from the vets and had to be kept still for one night. and i had to borrow it from the vet as i didnt have one. i would love to see more pics, they look adorable.


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## ownedbyroxy (Jan 27, 2009)

OMG!!!! 2709 views..... sheer madness!!!! look at how much attention these little cuties have got. bless them


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

farmercoope said:


> Cant wait to see more pics Pam!! And hey wonder how many posts youll get upto with even more pictures!! haha. This thread is still great in the fact that it shows peoples real personalities and my opinion on some people has seriously been lowered, anyway wont go into that just cant wait for more pics!:2thumb:


Who do you have a lower opinion of now Joe? :whistling2: 
:lol2:


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## Lucy_ (Jul 9, 2008)

zoo man... this is a bit off the topic lol but have your opinions of people changed too?? i noticed that the bit in ur sig that said much love to.... has gone:blush:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Thats cos my sig has been playing up. The big picture/logo bit disappeared. Then it returned. Then it disappeared again! So I deleted that 'Love to...' part to see if a smaller amount of clutter in my sig would solve the problem. :lol2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Well spotted BTW! hehe


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## Lucy_ (Jul 9, 2008)

lol! makes me sound like i have been stalking you, but i havnt honestly... i just noticed it earlier, and then noticed it was gone:lol2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Lucy_ said:


> lol! makes me sound like i have been stalking you, but i havnt honestly... i just noticed it earlier, and then noticed it was gone:lol2:


Meh, no worries, stalk all you want! :lol2:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

F:censor: hell 


thats all !!! 

:whistling2::lol2::lol2:


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## Loops (Feb 15, 2008)

i am getting a new puppy on tuesday dad full chin mum chin and a litlle bit of jack russell dont care what they r as long as there healthy and cute everyone to there own cute puppies more pics please lisaxx


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Meh, no worries, stalk all you want! :lol2:


its not like colin doesnt:lol2:


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Who do you have a lower opinion of now Joe? :whistling2:
> :lol2:


Oh just certain immature hypocritical people, no one to worry about


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

farmercoope said:


> Cant wait to see more pics Pam!! And hey wonder how many posts youll get upto with even more pictures!! haha. This thread is still great in the fact that *it shows peoples real personalities *and my opinion on some people has seriously been lowered, anyway wont go into that just cant wait for more pics!:2thumb:


yes i agree, dosnt it just! all thought my opinon hasnt changed as i knew it already.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

you've gotta lol at threads like this.

Although i'll look forward to seeing the replies of 'why do you want to know?' when Fenwoman is blasting people for doing things..



the most important thing is.... Rio is asleep on the sofa next to me and Wils is asleep on the floor next to my feet. meh at other people's dogs.


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

Meko said:


> you've gotta lol at threads like this.
> 
> Although i'll look forward to seeing the replies of 'why do you want to know?' when Fenwoman is blasting people for doing things..
> 
> ...


:2thumb: excellent post!


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## diamondlil (May 7, 2008)

Beautiful puppies, can't wait to see the new pictures. Any chance of a piccie of the tibetan spaniel too?


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> yes i agree, dosnt it just! all thought my opinon hasnt changed as i knew it already.


Definitly, But in my case it was people i thought where genuine, I dont know maybe they have real hatred for some people, but the pms i've recieved off of certain people also show it. Ooh dont you just love a bit of drama! always a good read:2thumb:


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

wohic said:


> actually it is fact, documented FACT, taken from long and detailed studys which with a very simple google search you will find.



Which can be countered with other facts which equally can be googled - and there are many factors which are difficult to factor in to such studies.

I am not anti crossbreed at all - just hate the way that statement is wheeled out regularly in the mongrels are better argument. Dogs are dogs - all wonderful


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

Meko said:


> you've gotta lol at threads like this.
> 
> Although i'll look forward to seeing the replies of 'why do you want to know?' when Fenwoman is blasting people for doing things..
> 
> ...


:lol2: i love readin ur posts meko 
n yes ur own dogs are most important :2thumb:


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

Evie said:


> . Imagine what it must be like for a stud dog outside its own territory to be surrounded on all four sides by other males - it must be very stressful and cannot be compared to a dog relaxed at home in its own bed.


My boy (who died last year) was one of the top stud dogs in our breed - nothing he liked more than being out and about at shows, races or just out with his friends - for a well trained well socialised dog - this should not be an issue at all and I do not know of many dogs for whom it is - other than those with temperament issues who should certianly not be bred from anyway!


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

midori said:


> . Just because dogs are clear of Sm it doesn't mean they aren't carriers and that the pups couldn't be a carrier. It is because of breeders like this that the condtion has become so widespread. no better than the breeder on 'that programme' IMO.


A dog can show no symptoms yet still have SM - only the MRI scan will show if a dog is clear or not - there are very very very few lines which do not have SM in the background somewhere - I have a friend who has been looking for nearly 2 years to find a pup ...


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

JulieNoob said:


> A dog can show no symptoms yet still have SM - only the MRI scan will show if a dog is clear or not - there are very very very few lines which do not have SM in the background somewhere - I have a friend who has been looking for nearly 2 years to find a pup ...


As I understand it from my friend (who breeds Cavs)only a DNA test will totally conclusive, which is why the bred club are trying to collate data to enable a tests to become available. However, in he meantime, MRI is the best test available.

It upsets me beyond all belief that anyone would risk breeding puppies with this debilitating condition. How on earth can anyone in their right mind equate that to caring about their anmals?


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

Wow! what the hell went on?! That tiny pup looks sweet!


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

is it a puppy?










or a platypus?


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

JulieNoob said:


> Which can be countered with other facts which equally can be googled - and there are many factors which are difficult to factor in to such studies.
> 
> I am not anti crossbreed at all - just hate the way that statement is wheeled out regularly in the mongrels are better argument. Dogs are dogs - all wonderful



I whole heartedly agree, all dogs are wonderful, my gripe is with who throw their arms up in horror at the thought of cross breed pups bringing up health issues, temperament issues etc when those problems show themselves in all breeds to some extent.
The other thing that bugs me is the 'you must get a dog from a rescue center' mentality, some people would rather know where there companion for the next 15 years is comming from, would like meet the parents and breeders.


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## Lucy_ (Jul 9, 2008)

Meko said:


> is it a puppy?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
:flrt: awwwww:lol2:


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## DementisMulier (Feb 23, 2008)

That platypuss looks well manky! lol

that pups a real runt of the litter eh...its less than half the size of the rest! hope she has a long healthy life and the size doesnt effect her future.

WANT TO SEE MORE PICCYS!!


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

I'm wondering were the other pics are :whistling2:


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

Meko that was mean! looks similar though ey!


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

OMG I always thought platypuses (platypi?) were cute that that one was scary! Puppy far cuter


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## luke123 (Apr 13, 2008)

Lover said:


> Meko that was mean! looks similar though ey!


 i thought you'd left


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

luke123 said:


> i thought you'd left


What? i said i wasnt talking to people asking me Q's about my pets. Lol. Members told me not to give a S:censor: what people said. I rather do that because people on here i like talking too.


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## happyhogs (Nov 18, 2008)

oh stop all the bitching and sniping! The pups are loved and will continue to be loved.....just show us some more god-damned pics :lolsign:


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Tut tut fenny where are these pics we were promised... Come on I need more puppy broodiness overload!


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

Lucy_ said:


> :flrt: awwwww:lol2:


more like eww look at its feet haha, i usually love platypus's but that one looks pretty manky!!


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

Meko said:


> is it a puppy?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


oh meko u r so funny, i could sit all day n read ur posts, yes maybe a little sad lol

but the platypus looks a dam site healther to me lol


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> oh meko u r so funny, i could sit all day n read ur posts, yes maybe a little sad lol
> 
> but the platypus looks a dam site healther to me lol


should of gone to specsavers


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

farmercoope said:


> should of gone to specsavers


na i dont need glasses i have very good vision thanks :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Ragmoth (Oct 4, 2008)

Some members of this forum can be absolutely vile at times. I hope they're proud of themselves. 

And Mrsdirtydozen, how can you say such things to Fenwoman. YOU are always there when any thread is started about pups/dogs. Your mum this, your mum that. Who gives? 

Fenwoman, the pups are super cute. I hope little Min keeps thriving. xxx


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## luke123 (Apr 13, 2008)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> oh meko u r so funny, i could sit all day n read ur posts, yes maybe a little sad lol
> 
> but the platypus looks a dam site healther to me lol


 :lol2:?? you know your jokes really dont make anyone laugh...putting that your laughing at your own UNFUNNY jokes makes it even worse tbh.


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## Ragmoth (Oct 4, 2008)

When i was younger my step-dad bred our bull terriers bash and bullseye. Bullseye had a litter of 6. 1 pup, Bella, was probably the same size as min. And even when she was 1 she was the same size as a 3 month old. She was so small. She lived until the ripe old age of 13. We were told she wouldn't survive 24 hours.


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## shplooble (Jan 5, 2008)

awww I can't wait for pictures :flrt: I will have to post some of my little puppy when i get home.


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## jenniferx (Sep 10, 2008)

Minnie is a sweetheart. 

Here's hoping she'll be just fine. Best of luck with her and the others.


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## GeckoLass (Nov 15, 2007)

Congrats on the litter they all look adorable , cant wait for more pics and Minnie is gorgeous , its fantastic how they seem to know shes slightly more fragile. Hope she has a long happy life with you.:flrt:


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

need more pics fenwoman!!


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## MELINDAGIBSON (Sep 8, 2007)

I think this thread is a case of maybe fenwoman has been rude and mean to people before about the desicions thay have made in life, I have been subject to some of it myself.
I dont like what she has said to me before but I aint going to come on here and start slating her.
The puppies are gorgeous and yes it was an accident but who cares
Yes there are loads of dogs in pounds needing homes but it dont mean cause fenwoman has had a litter of pups that they are all going to be homeless does it.
She wanted to share some pics with you not explain herself to anyone 

I dont personally agree with having puppies with there being so many in pounds but what the hell would it have to do with me to come on here and change someone thread proudly showing off her pups into a thread of bitchyness 

some of you breed rats some kittens and also reptiles and there are lots of them too in need of homes but that is your choice 

hope minnie does well I am sure she will be a little bugger when she is older :flrt:


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## luke123 (Apr 13, 2008)

freekygeeky said:


> need more pics fenwoman!!


 yup! (200th post )


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## ownedbyroxy (Jan 27, 2009)

luke123 said:


> yup! (200th post )


 

*OMG *- if only those pups knew of the stir they caused!!!


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

luke123 said:


> :lol2:?? you know your jokes really dont make anyone laugh...putting that your laughing at your own UNFUNNY jokes makes it even worse tbh.


shame, werent u the little boy that was going to get a job testing on animals?


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## luke123 (Apr 13, 2008)

no...?


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

luke123 said:


> no...?


sure it was u, it was a little boy any way that couldnt read the job ad correctly n made a thread on here with a poll called opinion please :whistling2:


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## MELINDAGIBSON (Sep 8, 2007)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> shame, werent u the little boy that was going to get a job testing on animals?


 
he was thinking about going for a job looking after animals which were going to be tested on but i didnt read all the thread


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## luke123 (Apr 13, 2008)

exactly. i wasnt going to test on any animals...and anyway its not happening, so theres no need to bring that up...i may be going to work in a kennels near me on a saturday job if yours that interested.


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## izzyki (Jan 18, 2009)

luke123 said:


> exactly. i wasnt going to test on any animals...and anyway its not happening, so theres no need to bring that up...i may be going to work in a kennels near me on a saturday job if yours that interested.


:lol2: if ye knew it was u shewas on about why didn't u just explain that it wasn't testin on them :lol2:


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

luke123 said:


> exactly. i wasnt going to test on any animals...and anyway its not happening, so theres no need to bring that up...i may be going to work in a kennels near me on a saturday job if yours that interested.


not intrested at all sorry, a good tip for u read the ad correctly


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## luke123 (Apr 13, 2008)

izzyki said:


> :lol2: if ye knew it was u shewas on about why didn't u just explain that it wasn't testin on them :lol2:


 because i wasnt the "little boy that was going to get a job testing on animals"


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## izzyki (Jan 18, 2009)

luke123 said:


> because i wasnt the "little boy that was going to get a job testing on animals"


but u just said it was?


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## izzyki (Jan 18, 2009)

izzyki said:


> but u just said it was?


anyway i don't care lol

x


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## mrsfluff (Jul 15, 2007)

So Luke made a mistake reading a job advert, what does that have to do with this thread? Why even bring it up?

Jo


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

I am thinking I may have nightmares about that platypus ...


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## basky (Dec 11, 2006)

god you can hardly read a thread these days without someone bitching. why can't people either say something nice or keep there nasty comments to themselves. :bash:


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## MELINDAGIBSON (Sep 8, 2007)

basky said:


> god you can hardly read a thread these days without someone bitching. why can't people either say something nice or keep there nasty comments to themselves. :bash:


Exactly its so sad and this thread has just gone pathetic 

still lovely puppies though 
thought i would say that seeing as this is what the thread is about:2thumb:


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

luke123 said:


> no...?


 
It was you!! Your also the one who doesn't feed the bearded dragons right but had the funniest comment to me that ours is obese with how much its fed. When really its a normal sized beardie! :whistling2:


I think this should be locked its all out of the subject now of fenwomen's topic on her puppies. Maybe Fenwomen will still post pictures of how they are doing in future.


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## Ragmoth (Oct 4, 2008)

It wasn't Luke who wanted to get a job testing on animals. It was Luke who wanted a job looking after animals that were going to be tested on. There is a difference and it has jack to do with this thread. Or are you just setting up your sights for your next victim?! 

Pick me, pick me.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

anyway this thread is going reall offtopic maybe a mod could clean it up a bit? Fenwoman how is the little one doing I am really interested in her progress


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

i doubt fenwoman will post any more pics of those adorable little dogs. this thread started by showing us the lovliest wee dogs, and was turned into a fiasco by a certain few. i dont profess to know fenwoman, but i doubt she will post again. why should she!!! 
those who dont like what she did should shut up and stay off thread, and let those who adore them give thier opinions.


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## luke123 (Apr 13, 2008)

Lover said:


> It was you!! Your also the one who doesn't feed the bearded dragons right but had the funniest comment to me that ours is obese with how much its fed. When really its a normal sized beardie! :whistling2:
> 
> 
> I think this should be locked its all out of the subject now of fenwomen's topic on her puppies. Maybe Fenwomen will still post pictures of how they are doing in future.


 please do inform me if either of these beardies look undernourished to you...

























hmm? didnt think so. seriously...i feed my beardies all that they need! if you feed your adult 40 locusts every day then you feed to much!


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> oh meko u r so funny, i could sit all day n read ur posts, yes maybe a little sad lol
> 
> but the platypus looks a dam site healther to me lol


that comment is totally sick and reeks of jealousy.


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## GeckoLass (Nov 15, 2007)

This has nothing to do with this thread! You could make your own instead of cluttering up someone elses. This is about Fenwomans beautiful pups and alot of people have completely ruined it for everyone more importantly ruined it for Fenwoman!



luke123 said:


> please do inform me if either of these beardies look undernourished to you...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

luke123 said:


> please do inform me if either of these beardies look undernourished to you...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Lol 40 a day- 15 i said! about 40 a week! You said yours had 4 locusts every once a week or so.. and fed lettuce.


Now patter on child this thread is not about your bearded dragons. you have %5 a week clearly not enought for your beardies. You would not take up the advise in having your parents advice. Your still a kid not a 18 year old.


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## luke123 (Apr 13, 2008)

i never said it was, you started that topic - i proved you wrong. you said you fed them 40 a day, i said i fed mine 5 every 2 days each along with veg.


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

luke123 said:


> i never said it was, you started that topic - i proved you wrong. you said you fed them 40 a day, i said i fed mine 5 every 2 days each along with veg.


no you said 4. 40 a day is way too many i let her eat up to 30 sometimes but that only if she wants it then she wont feed next day! one min i will get the thread link for you!


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

MODS!!! Come on give Fenwoman her thread back


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

Go on page 8.
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/other-pets-exotics/241378-oppinions-please-8.html



4 LOCUSTS EVERY OTHER DAY. Right from your mouth.

Sorry but i am not a liar so im posting it up for others and him to see. 

I do think all this topic should be cleared out. Or locked.


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## Ragmoth (Oct 4, 2008)

Lover said:


> Go on page 8.
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/other-pets-exotics/241378-oppinions-please-8.html
> 
> 
> ...


Grow up, Lover. He's supposed to be the child.


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

Ragmoth said:


> Grow up, Lover. He's supposed to be the child.


 
Well he should at least not lie when he clearly did say 4 every other day. I'm not on here to see someone acusing me to lie.


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## luke123 (Apr 13, 2008)

bosshogg said:


> MODS!!! Come on give Fenwoman her thread back


i am sorry but if someone was accusing you of malnourishing your beardie, would you not stand up for your self?

lover - it is nothing to do with you how i keep my beardies and tbh i dont care if you tell people crap. i know i keep them right, and for gods sake i dont remember every post i write! i said 4 not 5, oh no?!

edit - and you are a liar, i dont mistreat my dragons!


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

luke123 said:


> i am sorry but if someone was accusing you of malnourishing your beardie, would you not stand up for your self?
> 
> lover - it is nothing to do with you how i keep my beardies and tbh i dont care if you tell people crap. i know i keep them right.


 
I can see there fine i was just saying what you told me i think is a little bit of a poor diet for them to be honest. Nothing to do with me i know but its also nothing to do with you that mine are 'obese'?
I let her eat what she can take and know her limit. And her meal is spaced out threw the day So she can digest and lie in her basking spot.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Lynne - I doubt Fenny will be offput by people who have raised their own points in this thread hun, she is built of stronger stuff than that 

Come on Fenny - pics pics and more bloomin pics (and some of the others too cos I am in a piccy mood to cheer me up )


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

This is closed and will be left closed as it has gone too far to be cleaned now.

Just to note, crying out for mods to clean a thread on the thread does not bring it to our attention, please use the post report facility, thank you.


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