# Leo Guru's - Experienced Breeder's answers please



## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Right Folks,

I'm not being exclusive here, but it's not a newbie type question ! :2thumb:

I have paired a few of my leo's up this year, but am REALLY struggling to get any results. I have witnessed at least a couple of succesful couplings in each instance, but the problem is now starting to get me thinking.

I have only had 2 clutches from 5 females, paired with 2 different males. All females appeared to be ovulating, but I am struggling to see any eggs forming in at least 2 of the females. The initial mating took place 6 weeks or so now, so any ideas on what to do next, or should I just sit tight ?

Is it worth re-introducing the males or could I be looking at at least one male who's not got 'the necessary' ? 

Cheers all - tearing my hair out here !:censor:


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

i'm basing my answer on this years breeding experience that i've had so far, 
i've got 12 females that are laying eggs at the moment, they began to ovulate later than usual (mid april) 
the first clutch from every female apart from a hyper xanthic and a super snow bell was a dud, and even one of the xanthics went bad, both these sets of eggs are on day 46 now but still look good, the rest of the females eggs were a mix of fertiles that died and slugs, 
all my females were well up to weight and well supplemented and i witnessed multiple matings with all females, i used 3 different males so its not a case of an infertile male
i've had 2nd clutches from various females and these mostly look viable but the females all took longer than usual to develop and lay their 2nd clutches some took a full six weeks
i feed a variety of feeders including morio's, dubia roaches, locusts, mealworms, silkworms and butterworms, i used to feed pinkies but haven't this season as i don't have mice any more and i don't like pet shop frozen pinkies because you can't control what the parent mice have been eating,
i use a couple of us forums that are more gecko orientated than rfuk and the breeders are less secretive on those forums also and lots of breeders seem to be having a funny breeding season , it could be a virus in a certain feeder, it could have been our bad winter, i just don't have an answer for you but can tell you you're not alone in having a bad season


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

hi hun
I know a number of people have been having the same problem among other things ~ I know you're good with your reps but all I can think of is the norm .... age, health ect of females/males, livefood fed, temps etc ~ if the females were definately ovulating was it at the start of their ovulation or part way through ie: had they possibly started ovulating earlier then you thought so were down to the last ones so to speak? Either that or for some reason they're re-absorbing them?
You could try re-introducing the males to their original pairings BRO and see if they have more luck the second time round but to be honest I'm more inclined to think the problem may lay with the females as opposed to both the males .... sorry not of much help BRO


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

I've also had no end of problems this year. I am getting eggs (periodically) but they aren't going the distance. Two females gave up laying after 2 clutches (one of which was dud), another female triple clutched and hasn't produced anty more.

Seems alot of people are having issues this year, i'll be happy with one or two healthy hatchlings at this rate!


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i`m probly not an experienced breeder but......

i`ve found that the females that bred well last year arnt bothering to lay or are laying duds.
and the girls who are having their first year are laying like trains.

i`ll be breeding mine one year and giving them a season to recover from now on.


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

MrMike said:


> I've also had no end of problems this year. I am getting eggs (periodically) but they aren't going the distance. Two females gave up laying after 2 clutches (one of which was dud), another female triple clutched and hasn't produced anty more.
> 
> Seems alot of people are having issues this year, i'll be happy with one or two healthy hatchlings at this rate!


touchwood I've been lucky and short of that over-calcified egg have had no major problems this year ~ I've chatted with others about this but there just doesn't seem to be a common denominator as to why


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## jennie1981 (Aug 17, 2009)

ive had 7 eggs up to now 4 infertile and lost 2 fertile ones along the way not sure why. Am down to 2 incubating now but they are only on there second week. Im not having much luck if i get 1 healthy hatchling i will be happy
My females are looking ready to lay again tho so hopefully i might get a bit of luck from now on


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

SleepyD said:


> touchwood I've been lucky and short of that over-calcified egg have had no major problems this year ~ I've chatted with others about this but there just doesn't seem to be a common denominator as to why


Yeah, me too. Alot of people are having issues, whether it is public knowledge or not. Seems nature is against us this year.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i did think there wernt as many hatchlings about yet,its june now and the classifieds arnt exactly brimming with them.

didnt realise there were problems about tho.
why is everyone so secretive? arnt we all supposed to help each other?


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

pigglywiggly said:


> i did think there wernt as many hatchlings about yet,its june now and the classifieds arnt exactly brimming with them.
> 
> didnt realise there were problems about tho.
> why is everyone so secretive? arnt we all supposed to help each other?


I have been tlaking to a few people, but it isn't my place to name them. I was contemplating a thread until BRO put this one up.

I agree completely, we should all help each other.

I'm testing out different incubation methods, and contemplating the SIM incubators.


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

MrMike said:


> Alot of people are having issues, whether it is public knowledge or not. Seems nature is against us this year.


I don't know Mike ~ after the hassle a number of the american breeders had the other year which, if I remember correctly, was put down to possible feeder contamination, I'm not one to blame nature



pigglywiggly said:


> didnt realise there were problems about tho.
> why is everyone so secretive? arnt we all supposed to help each other?


not all are secretive ~ if I have problems with eggs/hatchlings then more often then not I post up about it, for example the dead hatchling from the over-calcified egg and there was a thread last year (http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/415029-breeding-successes-failures-year.html) discussing things ~ though this year for some seems the worst


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

no, it wouldnt be good to name ppl without their permission.

what sort of issues are people having? i`ve got a couple of girls laying duff eggs, but thats about it really.
i`m still using albeys incubation method and am doing ok, will have the same number of babies as last year.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

im using sim incubators, its not the incubation method, many of mine are first time breeders, 

at least the market won't be swamped with cheap leos this season


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

boywonder said:


> im using sim incubators, its not the incubation method, many of mine are first time breeders,
> 
> at least the market won't be swamped with cheap leos this season


How do you find the SIMs? and I agree with the market statement, hopefully we won't see the "bargain bucket" that last year brought.


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

MrMike said:


> I have been tlaking to a few people, but it isn't my place to name them. I was contemplating a thread until BRO put this one up.
> 
> I agree completely, we should all help each other.


*nods* I've been chatting too and as you say it's not my place to name anyone ~ if they want to come forward then that's for them to do ... as to helping/brainstorming, most know that I and others will try our best to help if we can but as I've said before there just doesn't seem to be a common denominator as to why things are going titsup for some and not others


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

pigglywiggly said:


> what sort of issues are people having? i`ve got a couple of girls laying duff eggs, but thats about it really.


the issues seem to cover a range of things from duff eggs/slugs, to females either not ovulating or ovulating and then re-absorbing the eggs


boywonder said:


> im using sim incubators, its not the incubation method, many of mine are first time breeders,


I agree I don't think it's the incubation methods ~ half of my breeding females are first-time layers with the other half old-hands and all with no problems ~ and I incubate as I always have (though that is different to many as for a start my egg-boxs are ventilated for free air movement over the eggs


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

SleepyD said:


> *nods* I've been chatting too and as you say it's not my place to name anyone ~ if they want to come forward then that's for them to do ... as to helping/brainstorming, most know that I and others will try our best to help if we can but as I've said before there just doesn't seem to be a common denominator as to why things are going titsup for some and not others


True, so here are my problems....

2 girls quit laying after 2 clutches, both had dud first clutch. They were still ovulating so I reintroduced the males and they have laid a further clutch each, only 1 egg is looking viable.
One girl triple clutched on her first attempt (well 2.5 eggs) which seemed to put her out of sync and have had single, small, non-viable eggs since. I am not reintroducing the male to this girl to see how this cycle finishes.

One girl went on a hunger strike whilst laying, so keeping a very close eye on her, she is eatying again now but it took alot out of her.

The viable eggs I have just don't make full term. Average is 4 weeks @ 82*F before either deflating, going mouldy etc. The medium is vermiculite, the same in all the boxes (using cricket tubs) but there isn't any set pattern to the problems, it is random through the boxes and eggs.

I have tried various ventilation methods, from completely covering up the slits in the tubs, to half, now on 3/4 covered up. 

I have 4 eggs in there right now, only one is looking fertile, but I'm crossing my fingers for the others, 2 females look ready to pop in the next week.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

the sim seems ok, none have hatched yet at day 44 at 26.5c or day 31 at 31.5c but everything in there looks good and pink,

we need to figure out what we have in common maybe we all use morio's or butterworms? maybe it was our cold winter that made females ovulate late, i caught my females first ovulations as i check them all as i do the weekly weigh ins so i know i didnt miss a bunch of folicles


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

MrMike said:


> 2 girls quit laying after 2 clutches, both had dud first clutch. They were still ovulating so I reintroduced the males and they have laid a further clutch each, only 1 egg is looking viable.
> One girl triple clutched on her first attempt (well 2.5 eggs) which seemed to put her out of sync and have had single, small, non-viable eggs since. I am not reintroducing the male to this girl to see how this cycle finishes.
> 
> One girl went on a hunger strike whilst laying, so keeping a very close eye on her, she is eatying again now but it took alot out of her.
> The viable eggs I have just don't make full term. Average is 4 weeks @ 82*F before either deflating, going mouldy etc. The medium is vermiculite, the same in all the boxes (using cricket tubs) but there isn't any set pattern to the problems, it is random through the boxes and eggs.


that seems par for the course as to what I've been hearing from others including from some who incubate the same as I do which is why I'm more prone to say that whatever is the problem it isn't incubation based



> I have 4 eggs in there right now, only one is looking fertile, but I'm crossing my fingers for the others, 2 females look ready to pop in the next week.


fingers crossed for you hun



boywonder said:


> we need to figure out what we have in common maybe we all use morio's or butterworms? maybe it was our cold winter that made females ovulate late, i caught my females first ovulations as i check them all as i do the weekly weigh ins so i know i didnt miss a bunch of folicles


this is what I've been trying to work out .....I don't use morios, butterworms or waxxies; weather-wise we had it cold down here with snow and frosts too but all my breeding females started ovulating from late december through to january same as always (even the few morph females), weight loss (if any) has been minimal and I've had no hunger striking and barring the egg I mentioned earlier all have been healthy and hatched fine...now I know some use the same methods as myself but have had the opposite so I don't think it's climate orientated.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

SleepyD said:


> that seems par for the course as to what I've been hearing from others including from some who incubate the same as I do which is why I'm more prone to say that whatever is the problem it isn't incubation based


The other people I have spoke to were thinking environmental factors. Ours are mostly in a room with 2 outside walls and no central heating. The ambients have been extremely varied (no where near dangerous though), but the hot spots are constant.
Light isn't an issue as the room has little natural light and the lights are controlled by me, I have simulated the seasons as we have had them.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

SleepyD said:


> that seems par for the course as to what I've been hearing from others including from some who incubate the same as I do which is why I'm more prone to say that whatever is the problem it isn't incubation based
> 
> 
> fingers crossed for you hun
> ...


 
everybody that wants to contribute to this thread should list some statistics

supplement wise i'm using nutrabal vits and calypso pure calcium, they have a 1:2 ratio in the feeder bowl at all times and i dust at every feeding with 50/50 mix, the last few years i used repashy supplements with excelent results but difficulty getting any last season saw me make the switch to t rex insectivorous dust and calypso pure calcium, when i tried to switch back none of my gecko's would eat it so now i'm trying nutrabal because lots of uk people seem to use it,
feeder wise my staple for adults is locusts and morio's on alternate feedings (monday wednesday friday saturday sunday) i gutload the morio's with progutload mixed with rolled oats, bran flakes, tropical fish food, dry soya, whey protein and rasins, i provide moisture in the form of strawberries, butter nut squash (grated) blueberries and potato slices
(all my feeders get the gutload) locusts get gutload plus watercress, dandelions and long grass
roaches get gutload, orange strawberries and blue bug gell
my temps in the vivs is 32c hot side 25c cool side they have a lay box with vermiculite but i'm thinking about using coco fibre because my super snowbell got vermiculite particles stuck on her eye and now she has a bad eye but she's been my star layer so far, i've also had a couple of females that went off food after laying the first eggs, i gave them some slurry to get them back into the eating habit which had the desired effect
can't think what else to list


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

MrMike said:


> The other people I have spoke to were thinking environmental factors. Ours are mostly in a room with 2 outside walls and no central heating. The ambients have been extremely varied (no where near dangerous though), but the hot spots are constant.
> Light isn't an issue as the room has little natural light and the lights are controlled by me, I have simulated the seasons as we have had them.


we have found our common denominator, my vivs had no central heating over the winter, i had constant hot side of 30c but same as you, a varied ambient temp probably as low as 10c i also control the lighting my gecko's got


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

boywonder said:


> everybody that wants to contribute to this thread should list some statistics
> 
> supplement wise i'm using nutrabal vits and calypso pure calcium, they have a 1:2 ratio in the feeder bowl at all times and i dust at every feeding with 50/50 mix, the last few years i used repashy supplements with excelent results but difficulty getting any last season saw me make the switch to t rex insectivorous dust and calypso pure calcium, when i tried to switch back none of my gecko's would eat it so now i'm trying nutrabal because lots of uk people seem to use it,
> feeder wise my staple for adults is locusts and morio's on alternate feedings (monday wednesday friday saturday sunday) i gutload the morio's with progutload mixed with rolled oats, bran flakes, tropical fish food, dry soya, whey protein and rasins, i provide moisture in the form of strawberries, butter nut squash (grated) blueberries and potato slices
> ...


I use Calypso and Nutrobal. Nutrobal one feeding at the weekend, calypso on offer 24/7 and alternate weekly feeding.

I feed a staple of mealworms (giants and regular) whcih are gutloaded on arrival with butternut squash, gren veg (rocket, spring greens) and any left over veggies, usually carrots or brocolli. These are then firdged and removed when needed. Once removed gutloaded again overnight and fed to the animals.

Hot side of the tubs is 89*F - 93*F with the cool sides being ambient temps.

Lay boxes are filled with eco-earth.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Guys,

fantastic response from you all (as expected ! :2thumb.

I too have been in touch with some folks 'offline' and they had already confirmed some problems (for various reasons, some obvious - others not). To be honest in a way I am glad it is not just me (though it's obviously annoying for you guys too), as that would point more to something I am doing wrong. I honestly don't feel it is, as again some of you know I am honest about things going wrong, as well as any 'successes'.

TBH I have had a couple of my girls play up a bit over the winter, but did wait until I honestly felt the time was right, so I am happy I have them in the right condition etc. I have one small MS enigma who is really not coming on as I hoped despite feeding OK and all else being 'good' (including various tests). I think she will probably never be used to breed from, as she is staying too small physically, so obviously she hasn't been mated. 
***********

On the temps/heating point over the winter, I am definitely thinking that this may be coming into play, as our house cools a little during the day while we are all out, with the severe weather this may have been dropping down considerably. With the Goni's I was planning on keeping temps more stable and 'up' this coming winter anyway, so this may be worth tracking.

As for supplementation etc, well my routine is 5 Calcium/2 Nutrobal mixed together in small tubs and fed on every feed. Calcium available at all times in a tub in the vivs.
Gutloaded (apples/greens/fish food/oats etc) mealies/Dubias/Hoppers and occasional crix as a staple, virtually never waxies (one tub all year so far).

31 to 34 minimum maximum ranges on the viv hot sides, cools down to 17 or so noted (poss cooler over winter). Natural light via windows on both rooms.

A couple of the girls went off food a little over winter but all tested negative on tests. My female DB had a problem for a while with an infection but has had antibiotics and is now back on track. 

It's a real puzzle, good feedback, lets see if we can get somewhere here.
A couple of good eggs would be a start - not one incubating yet ! 

Perlite is going to be used as incubating medium on covered tubs with 4 small holes (2mm) in the very bottom (I had a couple of probs last year and want to try and disperse co2 if possible).

Ovulation was seen in the girls that have been paired, but didn't start til march/April at the earliest. This was when the pairings began.
I would say one may have stopped without producing anything (re-absorbed?) and the others are looking like they may be reforming eggs or in one case look ready to lay again).


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

MrMike said:


> The other people I have spoke to were thinking environmental factors. Ours are mostly in a room with 2 outside walls and no central heating. The ambients have been extremely varied (no where near dangerous though), but the hot spots are constant.
> Light isn't an issue as the room has little natural light and the lights are controlled by me, I have simulated the seasons as we have had them.





boywonder said:


> *we have found our common denominator,* my vivs had no central heating over the winter, i had constant hot side of 30c but same as you, a varied ambient temp probably as low as 10c i also control the lighting my gecko's got


fraid not .... no other heating is used in my rep-room apart from the vivs (the radiator is blocked off) , room is also north-facing so any natural daylight is supplemented during the winter with the room lighting ~ ambient temps at night can drop down substantially especially during the winter (the house is an old one and has an inbuilt concrete airvent that can't be blocked), viv hot spots stay consistant.

feeding and supplements ~ all livefood is kept gutloaded on fresh washed veg (dark greens/cabbage, carrot, etc) hard fruits (apples and hard pears), and a mix of cereals with dry meat biscuit. Calcium available 24/7, all food dusted during the week with calcium and weekends with nutrabol ... I've been trying the 5 Calcium/2 Nutrobal mix with some to see how it goes.

livefood ~ the geckos are fed on mealies (fresh daily and avaliable at all times), and a variety of black & brown crix, hoppers and roaches

layboxes ~ either moss or eco-earth... depending on the gecko

incubation ~ use a hovabator, eggboxes are crix boxes with the top row of holes left open for ventilation/air movement, incubation medium is perlite with the eggs set in thumb-holes but only partway... they are not buried

females not paired until ovulation ~ usually between late december and january ~ viable eggs laid between 3 and 6 weeks later with hatchings near enough on time


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i only really feed mealies,( occasional waxie for the girls when laying ) the mealies are kept in tubs of meusli and they dont get any veg.
girls have limestone flour in their tubs,
every feed is dusted with a 5:2 mix of calypso to nutrobal.
hot ends are 30 degrees, i dont measure the cold end.:gasp:
i use value bottled water.

my lot started getting frisky early this season, i think its me moving from a hovel with no heating to a centrally heated house, my cresties and leos stated laying end feb.

i`ve never really checked for ovulation, i just pair them up for a week in the spring and split them up after a couple of days tail waving. except my lil psycho boy who has to be supervised to prevent wife-beating.
all females are seperate except two pairs of sisters.

my eggs are laid in eco earth, and incubated in perlite in sealed tubs in a diy beer fridge incubator heated with a mat and matstat at 82.
each female has her own tub and eggs are kept seperate.
most of the clutches are hatching together, thats never happened to me before!

of the females i bred from last year, they are all giving me good eggs with the exception of two, one is laying infertiles, the other eggs that candle ok but appear a bit deflated when they are laid, and they go manky over the next few weeks.

all the maiden females that were mated are cooking on gas, popping eggs like peas, just waiting for 2 to start laying.

i have hatchlings in my rack and some are damn pretty : victory:


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

pigglywiggly said:


> i only really feed mealies,( occasional waxie for the girls when laying ) the mealies are kept in tubs of meusli and they dont get any veg.
> girls have limestone flour in their tubs,
> every feed is dusted with a 5:2 mix of calypso to nutrobal.
> hot ends are 30 degrees, i dont measure the cold end.:gasp:
> ...


Rub it in


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i have lots of pics :whistling2:

pmsl lol


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

MrMike said:


> Rub it in


aww don't fret hun your turn will come ~ and I've been ever so good in not posting anymore pics of my babies


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## quadrapop (Sep 20, 2008)

I have had 4 infertile, 3 dead before hatching and a few with mild deformities all from well proven females who have never given me a problem before, not a good year is it?


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

yep,plus you can rub it in when you have little black ones remember :2thumb:


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

SleepyD said:


> aww don't fret hun your turn will come ~ and I've been ever so good in not posting anymore pics of my babies


It certainly will! Feel free to post your pics, I like looking. I'll see them all at the end of the month anyway


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

pigglywiggly said:


> yep,plus you can rub it in when you have little black ones remember :2thumb:


Ah ha! Very true


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

:lol2:


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## 53bird (Sep 30, 2009)

SleepyD said:


> aww don't fret hun your turn will come ~ and I've been ever so good in not posting anymore pics of my babies


 
im sure mr mike wont mind :whistling2: 

sorry for butting in, but thought i would share what has happened with me so far this season
i had a proven female from MJS, which had 12 hatchlings last year, and with me she had 5 clutches (2 in each) with 3 duds, 2 fertile eggs lost, one not strong enough to get out the egg, 3 hatched nice and healthy, and one left cooking (any day now) so with the sunglows not that good but im over the moon with what ive got and feel very lucky :2thumb:
the room with my leos in never drops below 23c in the winter, i well gutload all my mealies and locusts with greens as everyelse i nutrobal all food 2 times a week and calcium 5 times a week, with calcium pots left in all the time, my males get offered the same as the breeding females and are very happy. all temps are perfect.
i paired my talbino ss male with my mack het talbino 3weeks ago and have had 2 fertile eggs so far and she has more on the way ( fingers crossed all goes well) 
hopefully be pairing him with my mack enigma in a couple of weeks,

good luck everyone, its very interesting to see what is happerning this season, as some are doing great and others its not happerning for


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

MrMike said:


> Feel free to post your pics, I like looking. I'll see them all at the end of the month anyway


a lot of the mugshots are on facebook with a few in the album on here... but there again pics don't compare to leos in the flesh... look forward to the visit hun... got some real corkers for you to check : victory:


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

SleepyD said:


> a lot of the mugshots are on facebook with a few in the album on here... but there again pics don't compare to leos in the flesh... look forward to the visit hun... got some real corkers for you to check : victory:


Face..... book..... *shudders*


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

I have a theory here and it would be really interesting to prove it out. I suspect that leos do better breeding every other year. I am totally open to others experiences and in fact would welcome any input! I have been breeding for 4 years now so only have limited experience compared to some breeders on here (the likes of MrMike, olivine, SleepyD etc). 

In 2007 I only bred from one female and I was learning so I only hatched 2 babies from 8 eggs (plus she was not supposed to be gravid, I didn't pair her up, she arrived young and gravid so it was a bit of a steep learning curve). I used a poly box with an aquarium heater and compost as my incubator medium.

In 2008 I hatched 10 babies from 5 females and again I was learning as I went. All my females bred easily, all laid eggs and the hatchlings were a good size. I had few infertile eggs but I lost quite a few eggs due to my medium being too wet in my incubator (entirely my fault). I used a poly box and aquarium heater as an incubator but I tried using vermiculite as my incubator medium for the first time (hence the overdamp problem!)

In 2009 I hatched 20 babies from about 50 females. And I had no end of problems - my regular reliable breeders from the previous year were not laying at all. And proven females were laying me duff eggs, slugs, infertile eggs or nothing at all. The eggs that did hatch mostly came from females who had not been bred from before (1st timers). I was throwing away smelly flat mouldy infertile eggs every month. I was trying to keep them as long as I could but it was just silly - they were all rotten! I used 3 poly boxes with aquarium heaters (2 set for female, 1 set for male) and I switched back to compost as my incubator medium.

This year, I have paired 8 females up and so far 6 are laying eggs and I have only had to throw 1 infertile egg away! I paired each female up once and they are all laying reliably and seem to be good eggs. The 2 females who are not laying have been paired with a first timer male and I don't think hes got it figured out yet! I am using a poly box with a heat mat and stat this year and again compost as my incubator medium.

Feeding and Supplements ~ I feed only mealworms gutloaded on muesli, weetabix and porridge oats. All food dusted with a mixture of limestone flour (calcium) and nutrabol which I ratio 5/2 and mix up in a flour shaker. I have handed out a few waxies to laying females but not a lot.

Layboxes ~ All contain moss

Incubation ~ using a poly box with a heat mat and stat this year, egg box is a plastic food box with small holes drilled for ventilation/air movement, incubation medium is compost with the eggs set in thumb-holes but they are not buried.

Females were paired late April and throughout May (due to me moving house). Male was placed with each female for a week. Eggs have been laid between 2 and 4 weeks later and no babies hatched yet.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i`ve come to the every other year conclusion too, and will definatly be doing that from now on.

look what i found today :2thumb:


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

nuttybabez said:


> I have a theory here and it would be really interesting to prove it out. I suspect that leos do better breeding every other year. I am totally open to others experiences and in fact would welcome any input!


there maybe some merit to that idea although there may be other factors playing a part ~ to throw some other thoughts out into the pot.........
most of my leos and breeding females are from a W/C lineage and all have minimal 'hets' (if any) 
I don't breed them until they reach full maturity at 18-24 months ~ later then the age many generally use and I don't have the problem of 'duff' eggs from first-timers neither do any suffer with noticable or heavy weight loss 
in general they lay fewer clutches during the season, on average 4-6 clutches ~ I don't re-introduce the male ~ so the females have a far longer 'rest' period 
generally mine have one year breeding and one year off though there are exceptions with a couple who have bred for two years then a year off

however ~ I know some breeders who do the same as I do and their season has *still* been a wipe-out so far


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

SleepyD said:


> there maybe some merit to that idea although there may be other factors playing a part ~ to throw some other thoughts out into the pot.........
> most of my leos and breeding females are from a W/C lineage and all have minimal 'hets' (if any)
> I don't breed them until they reach full maturity at 18-24 months ~ later then the age many generally use and I don't have the problem of 'duff' eggs from first-timers neither do any suffer with noticable or heavy weight loss
> in general they lay fewer clutches during the season, on average 4-6 clutches ~ I don't re-introduce the male ~ so the females have a far longer 'rest' period
> ...


It's certainly a weird one...

I've decided against re-introducing my males in general, although I am thinking of maybe trying my male DB as it's a couple of his partners that are not showing any real signs of being gravid. A couple of the other guys are looking like something is happening at least. I am wondering whether or not he may be misfiring, as he is unproven.

With the general 'strangeness' of some of the leo's, it's interesting to note that all 5 of my boys have been absolutely fine, it really is the girls that have been playing up a little. As a few are 14-18 months old, it could be that they haven't settled fully, so with these ladies I will leave them in peace for the rest of the year I think.
I'm still hoping to get some results, my SSBell/MS Enigma het Bell pairing is looking good... Ah well, as they say - such is life.

If I get eggs/hatchlings I get them, if not 'cest la vie !

Anyway - I have some other little beasties to occupy me at the mo, so there's no lack of fun ! :lol2:


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

my best three layers for this season were all bred last season, some of my worst have been rested for at least one season and are laying bad eggs or are laying with longer than usual periods between clutches, i have some first timers that have given good eggs and others that haven't even begun to ovulate despite being 18 months + 
there just doesn't seem to be a pattern that i can see with my females,
i've been breeding for 10 years and this is the worst season i've had but for the last couple of weeks i've had all good eggs, hopefully all the duff ones have been layed.
maybe it was that i introduced females to males just a little late and the first batch were infertile only because of that


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## chris barber (Jan 29, 2009)

I'm having the same problems have had loads of eggs around
80ish but have had load of duds or they gone bad in last 3weeks
of incutbation have broken open a few of the bad ones all have 
babys growing in can't work out y they have died my temps all
been fine and stable. 

But on plus side have so far had 33 healthy babys so far:2thumb:


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

I don't breed from mine until they are 18-24 months old generally aswell. They just don't seem to be physically big enough before then even if they are up to weight. And I don't re-introduce the male ever - they get one week with the male and thats it, the male gets taken out and they don't get paired back up mid-season, I don't see the point in doing that tbh? And I thought 4-6 clutches was the norm?? If I get 5 clutches I think I am doing well!

Thats the problem I had last year Chris! All the eggs were just dying or infertile. It was carnage!


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## chris barber (Jan 29, 2009)

All mine have been over 18months that I've bred also
finding that only 1egg has been fertile out of a lot of clutchs. 
It's gutting to be watching your eggs like a halk to see
them go bad


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

chris barber said:


> All mine have been over 18months that I've bred also finding that only 1egg has been fertile out of a lot of clutchs.
> It's gutting to be watching your eggs like a halk to see them go bad





nuttybabez said:


> I don't breed from mine until they are 18-24 months old generally aswell. They just don't seem to be physically big enough before then even if they are up to weight. And I don't re-introduce the male ever - they get one week with the male and thats it, the male gets taken out and they don't get paired back up mid-season, I don't see the point in doing that tbh? And I thought 4-6 clutches was the norm?? If I get 5 clutches I think I am doing well!


like I said even some of those that use age as the breeding factor as opposed to weight have been having problems ~ with regards to the clutch amounts I've found that more 'bred' morphs will lay far more then W/C often upto 8 clutches+ a season.

So far there doesn't seem to be any connection with regards to climate, age, breeding regime etc, livefood or supplementation which leads me to ask how many that are having problems are breeding multi-hets/'top' morphs etc and how many are like myself breeding through W/C lines and single/no het lines?


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## Jon2ooo8 (Sep 6, 2008)

this is quite weird after reading the thread. so far i havent had any problems bar one of my female leos who was at a good 65g, got pregnant which took it out of her big time she lost 15g, and she hasnt laid now for 2 months but has put the weight back up. another unusual one is my female mack, she has a weird cycle going on, which is of:
first lay, 2 weeks later lay, 4 weeks later lay, 2 weeks later lay.. of which though all eggs are fertile (apart from 2 because we took the lay box out because she started eating the vermiculite, planned to the next day get moss and she meraculuously laid after showing no signs of going to lay). apart from that my other two females have laid 4 fertile eggs and are expected to lay again now in the next week (can see eggs through their bellies and they look like there going to explode out of them). 

p.s. had one hatchling so far


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

is also interesting to note that a few american breeders are also having the same problems as some here with comparisons to 2008 when a large number had problems


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## Jon2ooo8 (Sep 6, 2008)

SleepyD said:


> So far there doesn't seem to be any connection with regards to climate, age, breeding regime etc, livefood or supplementation which leads me to ask how many that are having problems are breeding multi-hets/'top' morphs etc and how many are like myself breeding through W/C lines and single/no het lines?


my leos that have bred this year are:
tremper x tremper = no more eggs (previous post)
SS het albino x mack snow poss het albino = successfull so far with fertile eggs and hatchlings
SS het albino x MSA = 2 good fertile eggs which are growing big and still rosey pink
Superhypo x normal = ^

like i said above the MSA ans normal are going to lay again aswell soon, hopefully with fertile eggs. using moss as lay box medium as well opposed to vermiculite this time and perlite opposed to vermiculite as a incubation medium.


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

I am breeding from mack snows, tremper albinos and mack snow tremper albinos this year. No multi hets or top morphs including RAPTORs, novas, dreamsicles, enigmas etc. 

2009 I (attempted to) bred from bell albinos, rainwater albinos, tremper albinos, super hypos, supersnows, mack snows and mack trempers.

2008 I bred from tremper albinos and mack snows.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

my raptors not playing this year, gutted as i`d paired her with my db and wanted to keep one:devil:

the bell albino girls i had from you are breeding fantastically and have kept perfect condition : victory:


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Well done BRO for starting this thread, it is certainly interesting. I wasnt aware of it until Mel (Sleepy Dee) phoned me about it a short while back. I have spoken with quite a few members of RFUK about breeding problems this season . I have no problem in telling people on the open Forum that the Grinning Gecko season didnt start well, that our early results were rather disappointing. Thankfully things do seem to be picking up now, the hatchling rack is at last filling up. I dont have many minutes at the comp just now but I will gather up a bit of info and try to get time later today or this evening to give a bit more detail of the problems we have experienced. The main thing for now that I would say is that I urge anyone experiencing problems not to give up.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Mal said:


> Well done BRO for starting this thread, it is certainly interesting. I wasnt aware of it until Mel (Sleepy Dee) phoned me about it a short while back. I have spoken with quite a few members of RFUK about breeding problems this season . I have no problem in telling people on the open Forum that the Grinning Gecko season didnt start well, that our early results were rather disappointing. Thankfully things do seem to be picking up now, the hatchling rack is at last filling up. I dont have many minutes at the comp just now but I will gather up a bit of info and try to get time later today or this evening to give a bit more detail of the problems we have experienced. The main thing for now that I would say is that I urge anyone experiencing problems not to give up.


Hi Mal,

as you know I have had a few issues - good news is I got 2 nice healthy looking eggs this morning from Bella (Bell Albino paired to Snow Enigma het bell male) - so the incubator actually has something in it now.
I've noticed some digging from one of the other girls and Jazzy my female Raptor looks like she isn't far off what will be her 2nd clutch (after a duff first).
I also have a supersnow Bell girl who looks gravid but still seeing no signs from one or 2 others. Fingers crossed things will improve, there is time yet.
Nice to see you are getting going Mal anyway ! :2thumb:


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

my season finaly started i found my first hatchling in the incubator last night, a bold enigma het bell from my high black project, she also looks mack snow but isn't as high black as i was hoping for,


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

pics? :whistling2:


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## kaimarion (Dec 31, 2007)

MrMike said:


> I've also had no end of problems this year. I am getting eggs (periodically) but they aren't going the distance. Two females gave up laying after 2 clutches (one of which was dud), another female triple clutched and hasn't produced anty more.
> 
> Seems alot of people are having issues this year, i'll be happy with one or two healthy hatchlings at this rate!


My females have been great so far this year between the six of them they have produced 22 fertile eggs so far and the male was first introduced to them 4 months ago.


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

Oh what a shame boywonder, let me take her off your hands so you don't have to look at her. *cheeky giggle* But seriously, would be interested if you are selling?


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## wheaty5 (Feb 3, 2008)

Yep ill join the club, ive had around 25 dud eggs this season, not sure why.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i might to have to go to ikea again :whistling2:


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Well, maybe this thread has brought some luck? 2 of my girls have decided to play ball again and 4 more eggs have arrived with another 2 on the way. It looks like 2/4 are fertile, but cooking all the same!


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## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

MrMike said:


> Well, maybe this thread has brought some luck? 2 of my girls have decided to play ball again and 4 more eggs have arrived with another 2 on the way. It looks like 2/4 are fertile, but cooking all the same!


Nice one Mike - genuinely hope they go the distance for you : victory:


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

MrMike said:


> Well, maybe this thread has brought some luck? 2 of my girls have decided to play ball again and 4 more eggs have arrived with another 2 on the way. It looks like 2/4 are fertile, but cooking all the same!





funky1 said:


> Nice one Mike - genuinely hope they go the distance for you : victory:


As Funky said - good luck Mike !


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

funky1 said:


> Nice one Mike - genuinely hope they go the distance for you : victory:





Big Red One said:


> As Funky said - good luck Mike !


Mucho gracias amigos!


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

MrMike said:


> Well, maybe this thread has brought some luck? 2 of my girls have decided to play ball again and 4 more eggs have arrived with another 2 on the way. It looks like 2/4 are fertile, but cooking all the same!


fingers crossed for you Mike : victory:


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

Yay for fertile eggys!!


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## sazzle (Jun 3, 2008)

i'm having a similar problem too with some of my girlies i bred last year and my rainwaters, fingers crossed it's cause its the first clutch of the season, i'm not doing anything differently to last year


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Im sorry for the delay in following up from my last post where I said I would give details of the problems we have experienced. Im afraid life became a bit hectic and I havent had much chance to sit at the comp.

I will try to give a brief outline of the problems now. I dont have records to hand so will try to give the info from memory.

First a bit about my setup. My breeding room is a converted garage with an east facing window. Temperatures have been maintained at around 70F throughout the winter period. The breeder rack is heated by cable with warm end temps 88 to 92F. The room despite having a big window doesnt get enough natural light. It still has a recognisable natural day / night lighting cycle but the room is apart from very sunny days a little dull. For this reason I have a bulb on in the middle of the ceiling during the day. On reflection the lighting could be better. I havent got the light on a timer and although I try to get in and check the geckos by around 7am each morning, the time the extra light gets switched on isnt always consistant. This is the exact same setup as last season though and we had a superb 2009 season.

All the geckos I have paired up have been well within optimal breeding parameters. They have received calcium/ vitamin supplimentation 5:2 again exactly as in previous succesful years. All the females that have been paired up appeared to be ovulating before being introduced to the male. Like several other leo breeders I do my own basic microscopy and all faecals have appeared normal and problem free. Basically there has been nothing that I can pin point in the leos that would prevent a succesful breeding season. Of the geckos paired up, some were first timers whilst for some it is the third season. I havent had problems with every gecko, one of my sunglows has just laid her 7th clutch and we have around 10 hatchlings from her so far. Its her 3rd season.

The problems we have experienced have been as follows :
Clearly ovulating females have mated within 5 minutes of contact with the male, developed visible eggs in their abdomen and then reabsorbed them before the time they were due to be layed.

Proven breeders have laid eggs that have failed to firm or fully inflate. A couple have laid calcified slugs.

Clearly ovulating females have mated, spent 48 hrs with the male and even with repeated introductions to the male have failed to produce eggs.

One proven breeder, another 3rd season 70gm + female has been laying singles and half of them have failed in the incubator.

There doesnt seem to be any logical explanation for these problems. All the geckos are in tip top condition. I think its probably down to multiple factors.

Food : Mealies and Crickets form the main staples fed to our geckos. Locusts and roaches are given occasionally. All food is well gutloaded with fresh vegetables and pro rep gutload formula. Some of the 'problem' geckos have eaten mealies and never touched crickets whilst others feed exclusively on crickets. Live food is sourced from numerous outlets. Because of the variables with the livefood sources etc I think its less likely that the problems are related to food intake.

The quality of the water we drink has frequently been questionable. There have been reports in the past of water sources being contaminated with amongst other things, oestrogen. This has allegedly effected the reproductive health of fish and its long term effect on human reproductive health has been questioned. It is conceivable that the water we offer to our reptiles could be a cause of problems. Water could also be a common and linking factor for breeders within specific geographical areas. Without extensive laboratory analysis we are unlikely to be able to positively identify any problems with the water.

The weather, temperatures, natural light levels, hidden natural influences etc etc could all be a cause of a poor season. The majority of hobby breeders dont keep their geckos in a room that is totally isolated from the environment. It is possible that the geckos pick up on things such as the weather patterns, light levels etc despite our efforts to manipulate the environment in which they are kept. It would be interesting to hear about the results and experiences of breeders who have the luxiary of purpose built reptile rooms that allow total environmental control without any external environmental influence. 

It is of course possible that the problems people are experiencing are quite normal with leopard geckos. Leos havent been subject to many in depth field studies so we dont have much data to compare the breeding results in wild and captive leos. It is possible that every few years leos naturally experience a poor breeding season. 

The other big variable is of course luck. Last year we were extremely lucky and had a fantastic season, this year we havent been as lucky (so far). Thankfully things are starting to pick up. We have approaching 30 hatchlings in the rack now, a good number of eggs cooking and a few more geckos have started producing. There is a lot of season left so hopefully everyone that has had problems will find their luck improves over the second half of the season. Fingers crossed. 

Glad things are picking up for you Mike, you certainly deserve some positive results.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

Mal said:


> The quality of the water we drink has frequently been questionable. There have been reports in the past of water sources being contaminated with amongst other things, oestrogen. This has allegedly effected the reproductive health of fish and its long term effect on human reproductive health has been questioned. It is conceivable that the water we offer to our reptiles could be a cause of problems. Water could also be a common and linking factor for breeders within specific geographical areas. Without extensive laboratory analysis we are unlikely to be able to positively identify any problems with the water.


 
i wouldn't be surprised if you and i both got our tapwater from the same reservoir, i'm in southport, 
i may try some bottled or even distilled water, anything's worth a go at this point although all the eggs i've had since the start of this thread have been good


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## shep1979 (Feb 24, 2008)

i only use bottled or RO water for all my reptiles and inverts, i get thru about 40L a week with them all


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

boywonder said:


> i wouldn't be surprised if you and i both got our tapwater from the same reservoir, i'm in southport,
> i may try some bottled or even distilled water, anything's worth a go at this point although all the eggs i've had since the start of this thread have been good


Got me thinking now guys, us Northwesterners could all be in the same position if it is a water issue.
I am still really struggling, only got a pair of eggs from my females so far and signs that one or two are not just not going to play ball at all...
Very frustrating, just hoping a couple of the others come good...:bash:


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## shep1979 (Feb 24, 2008)

im from blackpool so not far from boywonder and mal and like i said i only use bottled spring water or RO water and im have all the same problems as everyone else is


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

boywonder said:


> my season finaly started i found my first hatchling in the incubator last night, a bold enigma het bell from my high black project, she also looks mack snow but isn't as high black as i was hoping for,





pigglywiggly said:


> pics? :whistling2:


here's my first two this year, enigma het bell from bold stripe mum and bell enigma dad she went yellow over night after hatching so not mack snow, and a 66%het radar snowbell


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

shep1979 said:


> im from blackpool so not far from boywonder and mal and like i said i only use bottled spring water or RO water and im have all the same problems as everyone else is


 
i use a reverse osmosis filter system for the gecko's but i don't ever use bottled water,


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

boywonder said:


> here's my first two this year, enigma het bell from bold stripe mum and bell enigma dad she went yellow over night after hatching so not mack snow, and a 66%het radar snowbell
> image


Nice one fella - congrats.

I can see me popping over to yours at some point later in the year... :whistling2::mf_dribble:


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Ive spoken to a couple of other breeders who when I mentioned something I have noticed have realised its the same with them. I have used the same calcium & vitamin regime for several years. During the breeding season a lot of my leos tended to show calcium sacks. I even held back a couple of hatchlings last season because they had unsightly calcium sacks. As most people are aware, the sacks are normal and are how leos store surplus calcium. Its a reserve that becomes depleted during egg production.This season none of my leos are showing any signs of calcium sacks despite me using the same amounts and the same regime of calcium and vitamins. 

The only thing that has changed is Calypso calcium powder has changed to Komodo cricket powder. They are allegedly the same product, simply rebranded. Has anyone else when they look back to previous seasons in comparrison to this noticed they dont have any leos with water wings ? If so, what calcium powder do you use ?


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

*staggers upstairs to check for bingo wiings*


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

think you might be onto something here, i`m on komodo dust now too and even my supersnow who`s always had water wings has lost them.

used to be on calypso before and they all had wings then


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

pigglywiggly said:


> think you might be onto something here, i`m on komodo dust now too and even my supersnow who`s always had water wings has lost them.
> 
> used to be on calypso before and they all had wings then


Very interesting. I think it would be very useful if everyone that is having problems said what calcium they used previously and what they are using now. Also it would be good if they checked for calci sacks and said if they had them last season. It would also be useful to know what calcium the few people that are having a good season use. I know one very well respected breeder is having a relatively good season and I seem to recall she uses limestone flour for her calcium supps. Looking in RTs book, he claims that most breeding problems such as people on this thread are experiencing are down to supplimentation problems. Once we have a bit more info it may be worth talking to komodo and asking if anything has changed.


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## tonkaz0 (Apr 25, 2008)

Mal said:


> Ive spoken to a couple of other breeders who when I mentioned something I have noticed have realised its the same with them. I have used the same calcium & vitamin regime for several years. During the breeding season a lot of my leos tended to show calcium sacks. I even held back a couple of hatchlings last season because they had unsightly calcium sacks. As most people are aware, the sacks are normal and are how leos store surplus calcium. Its a reserve that becomes depleted during egg production.This season none of my leos are showing any signs of calcium sacks despite me using the same amounts and the same regime of calcium and vitamins.
> 
> The only thing that has changed is Calypso calcium powder has changed to Komodo cricket powder. They are allegedly the same product, simply rebranded. Has anyone else when they look back to previous seasons in comparrison to this noticed they dont have any leos with water wings ? If so, what calcium powder do you use ?


 
I use about a tablespoon of limestone flour with a small pinch of Nutrabal, Ive only ever filter my water to take any chemicals out I feel RO water is to extreem! if you use it for fish like Discus and stingrays you have to add things back in to make it acceptable again! , I gutload my feeders with dog biscuits, nuts, veg, and all good type food, 
Ive been doing the same for many years and its only the last few years that Ive had problems! My personal feelings is that it is all the intense breeding that goes on nowadays to get all these highend morphs, I never had any trouble 25 plus years ago like I do nowadays, I find alot more dead in shell and weakling babies than ever now, I also find that the more lower end morphs do alot better! grow quicker,bigger and stronger,
also I have some girls with calciums bags and some without all on the same diet and supps, I have good years, bad years, and average years!, at the moment this is a good year and I hope it stays that way but whos to know, 
good luck to anyone who is having problems I hope you sort them out soon:lol2:.


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

I use limestone flour and a few of mine have bingo wings.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Thanks for your input Tonkaz, I agree with quite a few of your observations. I had stated in earlier posts that some of the problem could simply be down to luck. I also feel it could possibly be a perfectly natural reduction in breeding sucess. Im sure the wild population of leos must like many different animals have good years and bad years in respect of sucessful reproduction of their species. This may happen naturally as a means to population control and as a way of strengthening the gene pool, with only the strongest of hatchlings surviving. It is possible that something like this happening in the wild could occur in the captive population. This is of course speculation as I dont think any studies have been conducted in the wild to monitor the reproductive health of leos over a period of years. The areas where wild leos are found are often places people wouldnt be too keen to go and visit.

Your thoughts about the higher end morphs being more problematic than the 'wild type' is also interesting. Its another area that would make for an interesting study. However that would necessitate a lot of data collection and there would be so many variables that the results may be inconclusive. Your observations over the many years that you have bred reptiles are course very relevent. As you point out there are good years and bad years and hopefully the problem people are experiencing is just a blip and next seasons results may be much better.

I do think it is still worth looking into other factors though. I know some people that have had problems havent just been working with high end morphs. The supplimentation issues are still interesting and would be worth looking at a little more closely although I suspect any findings in that area would be inconclusive. The fact you are having good results with limestone flour is also interesting and is something I think I will try with my leos. It may may be worth comparing results against others in the collection being supplimented with branded calcium carbonate. It is of course possible that the 'problems' arent connected to the calcium supplimentation but are linked to the vitamin supplimentation that is offered. 

To be honest I dont think we will identify a conclusive common cause of the problems people are experiencing. They are probably down to numerous factors. I consider myself lucky, things have started to pick up for me. My success rate is down in comparrison to previous seasons but I am seeing some improvement and have a good number of hatchlings in the rack. I know a number of people are still having awful luck with their projects. It must be very upsetting for people who have worked to give their geckos the best possible care, got their geckos into tip top breeding condition only to find their 2010 season is a complete washout so far. I really do hope things improve for the people who are still struggling, some of whom are still struggling to get their first hatchling of the year. It has to be worth trying to identify anything that may help them.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Mal said:


> To be honest I dont think we will identify a conclusive common cause of the problems people are experiencing. They are probably down to numerous factors. I consider myself lucky, things have started to pick up for me. My success rate is down in comparrison to previous seasons but I am seeing some improvement and have a good number of hatchlings in the rack. I know a number of people are still having awful luck with their projects. It must be very upsetting for people who have worked to give their geckos the best possible care, got their geckos into tip top breeding condition only to find their 2010 season is a complete washout so far. I really do hope things improve for the people who are still struggling, some of whom are still struggling to get their first hatchling of the year. It has to be worth trying to identify anything that may help them.



Agree with you again here Mal, there's so many variables to consider, I really don't think we will get to the bottom of the 'problem' (if indeed there is a problem....).
I am still having an absolute mare, with only one girl from 5 that have mated producing eggs so far, I have 2 fertile eggs so far.... :censor:

But - tbh if it aint o be it aint to be, I am not going to lose sleep over it and will just give the girls all that I believe they need for the rest of this year and then try again next. 
The one 'annoying' thing is that you see some people literally throwing leos together willy nilly and knocking out loads of hatchlings when other guys (not necessarily me!) try and do the right things and get nowhere.

In my case - I am wondering whether I missed out on my girls ovulating very early in the year? I wasn't checking them in Jan as I had other things going on which meant that I had to delay pairing up. It's a possible, although some were definitely still ovulating when paired and have all accepted the males on more than one occasion. I have had a duff cluctch form one female who now looks like she has stopped, so that leads me towards the possible issue mentioned. Others have shown no signs of eggs at all... 

One final thing - I also use limestone flour in my 5:2 'Calcium' to Nutrobal mix....


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Big Red One said:


> But - tbh if it aint o be it aint to be, I am not going to lose sleep over it and will just give the girls all that I believe they need for the rest of this year and then try again next.
> The one 'annoying' thing is that you see some people literally throwing leos together willy nilly and knocking out loads of hatchlings when other guys (not necessarily me!) try and do the right things and get nowhere.


I agree completely. Luckily a couple of our girls are back into the swing of things, and the eggs cooking right now are looking good. The other girls are now having a rest for the rest of the year and i'll make a decision about them next year.

Hope yours looks up mate.


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## tonkaz0 (Apr 25, 2008)

MrMike said:


> I agree completely. Luckily a couple of our girls are back into the swing of things, and the eggs cooking right now are looking good. The other girls are now having a rest for the rest of the year and i'll make a decision about them next year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

I've followed this thead with interest and its been a bit of an eye opener. I am by no means what I would class as an experienced leo breeder having only been breeding for the last two years. Last year I bred 6 babies, all eggs laid hatched. The only issue I had was that one of the hatchlings had dodgy eyelids. I kept this until it was five months old before letting it go to someone else as I didnt want to be giving any one a problem animal. 
This year I'm breeding a from two tremper, two enigmas, a normal and a TUG Talbino females and a Bell Super hypo carrot tail and a Hypo carrot tail het tremper.
One of my tremper girls hasn't laid a single egg although she'd definately ovulated several times, the other trempers' eggs have largely been fine but I've had a dud hatchling and a a fertile egg go bad a couple of weeks in from her. Both enigmas have laid like little troopers. The one in with the bell has had several apparently fertile eggs go off when other eggs in the same tub have been fine. The enigma in with the tremper has laid one lot of slugs and not produced quite such large eggs. 
The TUG female had only laid me three eggs so far all of which look fine until this morn when I had two slugs. She's not long been with a male as I wanted to give her until she was 18 months before I bred her. Ok... so she was 15 months when she went in with the male... I got impatient and she weighed 68 grams when she went in with him. I figured she'd be fine. 
I'm using a combo of vermiculite and coco fibre in my nest boxes and I'm using both perlite (I'd not used it before so was a bit of an experiment) and vermiculite in variious boxes. 
Other than the one dud baby, all the hatchlings I've had have been superb and no hassel but Its interesting to hear that I'm not the only one getting dud eggs.
Where do everyone's live foods come from may I ask? 
My guys diet consists of ad lib mealworms plus crickets, moulted morios, locusts, waxies and I've just added roaches to the mix too. 
Everything is gut loaded with what ever veg I'm putting in dinner that day so squash, carrot, various greens plus dandelion leaves and oatibix and very occasionally, a few cat biscuits. 
I'm using JBL calcium which is always available plus rapashy and occasionally JBL vitamins.
All the females had pretty big bingo wings prior to breeding. 
I'm not alot of use but theres some stats from little me too. 

Kat


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

its very interesting that you`re using a different brand of calcium and have bingo wings.
( your leos, not u personally :blush: )


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

I've only just seen this thread - I was moving house when it was first posted. I have also had a disastrous season this year. I have put it down mainly to bad luck. Of my 3 males one was recovering from illness so I haven't used him. One was in quarantine until last month and the other I am sure has been firing some blanks. Of the nine breeding age females: 2 in quarantine, 2 just not ovulating at all, 1 first timer laying only one egg at a time. The other four have been laying but at least half the eggs have been infertile. 
I have had one hatchling so far!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The few remaining eggs I have managed to overheat with incubator problems - my fault. I now have 4 decent looking eggs incubating so fingers crossed.
All Leos are over 60g weight and fed a varied well gut loaded and supplemented diet. 

The one thing I have noticed though is that the females who have not ovulated are the heaviest and the ones that have done the best are the slimmest. Although I would not consider any of my Leos to be visually overweight and all are well muscled perhaps this is the issue. Are we keeping our Leos too fat?


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Coming back to this thread, we have finally got some healthy babies, and a few more eggs cooking. How is everyone else coming along?



jools said:


> The one thing I have noticed though is that the females who have not ovulated are the heaviest and the ones that have done the best are the slimmest. Although I would not consider any of my Leos to be visually overweight and all are well muscled perhaps this is the issue. Are we keeping our Leos too fat?


Interesting thought. I keep all of ours "trim", which means they do not get fed every day, sometimes not even every other day. I do have one male who is overweight, and is on a strict diet, although you wouldn't tell! Big bones he tells me....
I have noticed the trimmer leos are more alert and active than my lone overweight male. I know the sample size is far too small, just something I have noticed.


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## shep1979 (Feb 24, 2008)

my season started off bad but got better, but latley had a few problems with eggs going full term then just sinking in a bit and nothing happening with them, all eggs from one female that i was realy wanting to hatch just go bad at about 4 weeks im gutted with this as i was wanting mack het patternless and albino from them but looks like i wont get them this year, but i have had some stunning babys tho so cant all be bad


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

ive had a terrible year, ill do stats when i have more time.

Ive had over 80 eggs not hatch for various reasons, ive bought extra stats(3 pulses and a dimmer) to get better control on the temps, new incubator to stop the small fluctuations of the herp 2s, and now im trying sim containers aswell.

Lost complete faith in my methods, i know im not doing anything wrong as such, i have 3 prior years experience in breeding.

I have 6 pink eggs in a sim with about 10 not pink, thing about the sims is they keep all eggs nice and plump even duds.

Ive now pretty much wrote this year off and ive only hatched 2 leos and killed one by opening what i thought was a dud egg, well why would you think its good if you lost as many as i have this yr..

Im now concentraiting on next years babies and getting the adults in tiptop condition.

Even my cresties are laying duds now..

:bash:


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Mine hasn't been great to be honest, I have hatched a few nice ones lately but only have 3 more good looking eggs left and a couple layed last week which aren't looking good. 

To be honest I am putting it down as one of those things, I have had a couple of the girls lay a single duff clutch then stop, as I posted earlier in the thread I think I may have missed their ovulation cycle earlier in the year...
Jan onwards next year I will be closely monitoring them ! :lol2:

The only real frustration with not happening this year is that I had a few 'het provers' I wanted to confirm so that I could plan for next years projects, but a few other irons have emerged form the fire now anyway.... :whistling2:

Looking forward to next year already.... fingers crossed !


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## tonkaz0 (Apr 25, 2008)

I do feel for the ones who have had a bad season this year! I had mine last year through illness and it was so sad and depressing that I nearly gave up altogether, but that was through illness like I say and not breeding problems!,

This year has gone mad and all Ive done is change to rubs and used a new gutloader that I make up myself give to whatever Im going to give the leos, which is mainly mealworms,

With that mention of feeding! my leos were the oposite of yours jools as they were the bigger than they have ever been with this new mix! 
they piled they weight on just before breeding time some of them even getting the bingo wings as some call them! and this is the only season that I can remember where some havent looked thin afterwards, and all now up to their normal size/weights already! but not fat,

I have hatched around 60 babes with about 20 left to pip, I did have probably 10 drop but thats just a thing that happens all the time,

The babes I have more problems with are the higher end ones! slow to start feeding and sloughing, it seems that as time goes on and all the new morphs, sizes and whatever gets more popular that were getting more problems!, I still maintain that its still due to the intense breeding nowadays, Im talking about the big breeders now with all the supply and demand that goes on! not us humble smalltime breeders, but that is just my opinion!, 

I still use the same incubators as always, an old hovabator and a large home made polybox thing, I tried a herp 2 once and found it to be the biggest load of rubbish I had ever bought, but again thats my opinion, its used as a cupboard with a light in now!,

Ive always used a mix of peat and sand for incubation medium and put a third of the egg into it and Ive always had good results!,
this year I tried perlite! with all this talk about these sim incubation methods I thought I would just get the perlite a bit damper than I used to with the sand and peat and just laid the egg on top of a few big bits of perlite so they were sort of suspended and this worked a treat! the hatch rate is no different to what I normally do but because its so much cleaner thats what I`ll be doing from now on, I cant see the point in buying a little plastic tub with a slotted shelf for £16-£18,

anyway thats my season shared I dont think Ive done anything more spectacular than other years! just changed a couple of things its just that this one has gone to plan, I cant see anything that Ive writen that`ll help any of you that had problems this year, but good luck next year.


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

ive just came home to a super snow het bell in the sim container so that has cheered me up a little:mf_dribble:


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## mjp1pink (May 3, 2008)

*This Years Breeding Season*

Hi

I have found many of the posts in this thread really interesting. It not only gives an insight into the issues that you have had during the breeding season, it also gives an insight into your husbandry and care techniques. I do not keep detailed records about the care of my geckos so a lot of the following is from memory (my wifes being better than mine).

As far as this years breeding is concerned I feel that I have had a relatively good season although it has had its ups and downs. I bred four females, two of which I bred last year, the other two were first year breeders both of which were over 70g and about 18 months old. I was going to breed a fifth female but she developed a problem in one of her ovaries and ended up having an operation at the vets to remove the damaged ovaries. She is now officially retired.

I currently have 25 babies and 12 eggs in the incubator which are all looking really good. I think have lost about 10 eggs in total. 5 or 6 were infertile, 3 went mouldy in the incubator and when we cut them open there was no sign of any development, 1 died in the egg as a fully formed gecko and it's clutch mate hatched at less than 2g and later died despite a lot of effort to save it. I have also recovered a couple of shrivelled up eggs out of one of the females vivs that she laid right on top of the heat mat. All eggs are incubated in a hovabator in pretty much the same set-up that is descibed on Albey's website

From a care perspective all of my geckos are in a viv stack that is in our living room which have a hot end which fluctuates between 90 and 94 and a cold end that is room temperature. The heating is provided by heat mats under slate tiles. We do not have any central-heating on during the night even during the winter so the room does get quite cool.

I primarily feed mealworms that I breed myself. The mealworms are raised on wheat bran and supplemented weekly with carrot. I do use other vegetables depending on what we are eating but I specifically buy carrots for the mealworms to eat. If I have to buy mealworms to cover any shortfall in supply they get cleaned up, split into pots of bran and fed carrot just like the others.

I also sometimes feed locusts if I have them (I occasionally buy locusts instead of crickets for the beardies). I also feed the breeding females pinkies once a week although I have just run and two of the girls are looking a little depressed. I have found that the girls that eat pinkies seem to get hooked. If they see me approach with a pinky they become really switched on and will strike at the glass if I don't get the viv door open fast enough.

I supplement their diet with Nutrobal (just because I have always used it) twice a week and they always have a pot of calcium in their viv. I have just checked the calcium and it is Komodo brand. My wife also believes that we previously used Calyspo brand. I only have one gecko (the girl that was operated on) that has bingo wings. She had them last year but I don't remember any of the other geckos having calcium sacks. The process is the same that we have used in the past.

We live in the Vale of Belvoir in North East Leicestershire. My geckos always get tap water to drink.

In summary we have had potentially 37 babies from 4 laying females (just over 9 per female), lost about 10 eggs (about a 20% loss from the total clutch).

It would be interesting to see how these statistics compare to those of you that have had a poor year.

Regards

Mark


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