# Scientists call for an end to the exotic pet trade



## Chris Newman

*Scientists call for an end to the exotic pet trade*

In an article in the August issue of _The Biologist_, three scientists have highlighted the scale of the problem of the exotic pet trade and called for complete prohibition. 

Regulations and bans are currently in place to prevent the trade of dangerous or endangered animals, but Elaine Toland, Director of the Animal Protection Agency, Clifford Warwick FSB, Emergent Disease Foundation and Phillip Arena, Murdoch University, Perth, believe this doesn’t go far enough. 

Elaine says: “A UK ban on the importation and domestic trading of exotic pets, whether they are wild-caught or captive bred, would result in a rapid improvement in species conservation, ecological problems, and welfare concerns linked to transport, storage and captivity.”

http://www.societyofbiology.org/newsandevents/news/view/457


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## ItsExiled

....:devil:


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## Wolflore

I love the made up numbers! 

"If we extrapolate..." yeah, you mean, if we make it up!


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## Graham

Not proper scientists then...


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## Wolflore

I think it was proved that they were not scientists. Therefore, what they say, scientifically, has no weight. Yet folk keep allowing them air time!


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## Graham

Think I may add a few meaningless letters to my name and see if people take as much notice of me as they do of these charlatans!

They remind me of the late Idi Amin, who awarded himself all sorts of spurious titles, and several genuine ones (such as the Victoria Cross) to which he was not entitled.


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## Harbinger

Surely if bringing in from the wild is done right and not greedily there is no problem. And anyway species are being bred in captivity, thats bonus individuals to the species. If such a thing would come in affect think of how much stuff would be introduced to the wild and thus environmentally damaging.

Why cant we meet people like this in real life to headbutt?


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## pussmunky

Could this really happen? With the amount of enthusiasts I doubt it!


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## andyb79

*What about the UK*

I think their argument would carry more weight if they actually used figures from the UK and not based on USA. They ar using them as an example of animals being introduced, and salmonella cases.


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## gmccurdie

JEHR Vol12_01 - A review of captive exotic animal-linked zoonoses

This presents their reason in more depth.

Economically I can't see any government being interested in a total ban. Raised under the Health and Safety banner they will be forced to "consider" the concerns raised.

I am also concerned about the possibility of Zoonosis or Zoonoses (this looks funnier). As the old Health and Safety of the public chestnut is being used; I believe the Risk would be greatly reduced if all members of **** sapien evacuated the planet with a bio sign displayed at all entrance points :whistling2:


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## PrincessStegosaurus

Hm, nice thorough article there, with no refences provided what so ever for their stats and claims. 'Scientists' my butt. As scientists as that crazy Gillian McKeith or whatever her name is, is a doctor of nutrition. Phoneys with internet purchased titles making it up as they go along.


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## Guest

They're right you know, its not as if awareness and the ability to see the animals up close has any impact on conservation.

Thats why we don't have highly conservation orientated places where the general public can pay to go and see wild animals. Wait...


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## SporAkaJohn

So they want all exotics to be wiped out in their natural habitat due to it being deforested and whatever else and none of them to be conserved by exotic pet keepers/breeders? What do the APA actually do to protect these exotics?


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## sambridge15

because prohabition has worked so well for drugs,booze and prostitution etc:thumb:It just causes deregulation of the trade and increases harm to all parties.There is a very good article by professor nutt(A genuine scientist) on the cannabis trade id assume the implications of a ban would have similar effects in our situation.


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## Jeffers3

Chris Newman said:


> *Scientists call for an end to the exotic pet trade*
> 
> In an article in the August issue of _The Biologist_, three scientists have highlighted the scale of the problem of the exotic pet trade and called for complete prohibition.
> 
> Regulations and bans are currently in place to prevent the trade of dangerous or endangered animals, but Elaine Toland, Director of the Animal Protection Agency, Clifford Warwick FSB, Emergent Disease Foundation and Phillip Arena, Murdoch University, Perth, believe this doesn’t go far enough.
> 
> Elaine says: “A UK ban on the importation and domestic trading of exotic pets, whether they are wild-caught or captive bred, would result in a rapid improvement in species conservation, ecological problems, and welfare concerns linked to transport, storage and captivity.”
> 
> http://www.societyofbiology.org/newsandevents/news/view/457


Hi Chris

As an academic working in a bioscience department of a University, who is also Editor-in-Chief of a scientific journal, I am appalled that The Biologist has published this article. I will be contacting the journal about this and will insist that they correct the ridiculous claims and statistics.

Let me know if you want to chat about this.


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## Tarron

Jeffers3 said:


> Hi Chris
> 
> As an academic working in a bioscience department of a University, who is also Editor-in-Chief of a scientific journal, I am appalled that The Biologist has published this article. I will be contacting the journal about this and will insist that they correct the ridiculous claims and statistics.
> 
> Let me know if you want to chat about this.


I didn't realise you had all that behind you jeffers , you're better than Clifford ! Lol

I saw this the other day and put a poll up. Not scientific and nowhere near enough respondents to be deemed credible, but approx 90% said 0% died in the first year, 1 person had a 1% death rate in the first year (myself - a hatching beardie runt ) and one person had a 21-30% yearlong death rate, so all in all, well below the 75%stated 

As for conservation, private keepers captive breeding is a huge bonus for species, not to mention the sustainable wild collection where farmers have a vested interest in keeping animals safe.


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## Jeffers3

Tarron said:


> I didn't realise you had all that behind you jeffers , you're better than Clifford ! Lol
> 
> I saw this the other day and put a poll up. Not scientific and nowhere near enough respondents to be deemed credible, but approx 90% said 0% died in the first year, 1 person had a 1% death rate in the first year (myself - a hatching beardie runt ) and one person had a 21-30% yearlong death rate, so all in all, well below the 75%stated
> 
> As for conservation, private keepers captive breeding is a huge bonus for species, not to mention the sustainable wild collection where farmers have a vested interest in keeping animals safe.


The Biologist should not be publishing articles like that. It is supposed to be the magazine published for members of the Society of Biology and should set an example of publishing informed articles for it's members to read. I've been an invited speaker at the Society's Life Sciences Careers Conferences twice, so I know people within the organisation. I'm sure the Society will be shocked when they find out the true story about the authors of this article.

I was hoping for an opportunity to "do my bit" to counter the outrageous activities of these people. They have now given me that opportunity. The scientific community takes the publishing process very seriously. These so-called scientists have committed one of the ultimate sins - in writing deliberately misleading and factually incorrect articles. If these people had any scientific credentials (I don't know any of them), they won't have for much longer.


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## Tarron

Is this the kind of thing that should be peer reviewed before being published?

You stick it to them jeffers , it's about time these charlatans were revealed for what they are.


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## Jeffers3

Tarron said:


> Is this the kind of thing that should be peer reviewed before being published?
> 
> You stick it to them jeffers , it's about time these charlatans were revealed for what they are.


It probably wasn't peer-reviewed in the usual way, as it is a society magazine, not a journal. Nevertheless, it should adhere to good publishing standards. After all, it is the official publication of the Society of Biology. They should know better.

Don't worry - I'm going for the jugular on this one!


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## Tarron

Yeah, there should definitely be some sort of review, otherwise anyone could say anything.

How ironic, I hear going for the jugular is the best way to kill a circus, badum tsh


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## Jeffers3

Tarron said:


> How ironic, I hear going for the jugular is the best way to kill a circus, badum tsh


 
Groan..... :lol2:


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## Revobuzz

Jeffers3 said:


> Groan..... :lol2:


 I second that groan...


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## Lewis M

Jeffers3 said:


> Hi Chris
> 
> As an academic working in a bioscience department of a University, who is also Editor-in-Chief of a scientific journal, I am appalled that The Biologist has published this article. I will be contacting the journal about this and will insist that they correct the ridiculous claims and statistics.
> 
> Let me know if you want to chat about this.


In light of this being on BBC, did you get anywhere with this?


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## Chris Newman

Lewis M said:


> In light of this being on BBC, did you get anywhere with this?


There will be a rebuttal on BBC News Channel this evening; Simon King from Kings Reptile World will be addressing the nonsense that 3 out of 4 reptiles die in the first year. Interestingly both Clifford and Elaine have pulled out of the debate, fairly typical of both of them as historically they are both unwilling to debate the matter with people more knowledge than themselves. I understand Ian Newby will also take part, should be interesting.


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## trueviper

Lewis M said:


> In light of this being on BBC, did you get anywhere with this?


 
I also saw some bloke on the news today droaning on about banning the keeping of exotic pets.

Another case of the irresponsible making it worse for many of us out there who keep our animals properly me-thinks :bash:


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## HABU

US Immigration Services - US Citizenship, Green Card & US Visa Forms


: victory:


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## Lewis M

Chris Newman said:


> There will be a rebuttal on BBC News Channel this evening; Simon King from Kings Reptile World will be addressing the nonsense that 3 out of 4 reptiles die in the first year. Interestingly both Clifford and Elaine have pulled out of the debate, fairly typical of both of them as historically they are both unwilling to debate the matter with people more knowledge than themselves. I understand Ian Newby will also take part, should be interesting.


Do you happen to know if its the 6 or 10 oclock news?


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## Chris Newman

Lewis M said:


> Do you happen to know if its the 6 or 10 oclock news?


I believe it’s the BBC News Channel and will be on some time after 7:30pm.


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## Blake1990

Chris Newman said:


> There will be a rebuttal on BBC News Channel this evening; Simon King from Kings Reptile World will be addressing the nonsense that 3 out of 4 reptiles die in the first year. Interestingly both Clifford and Elaine have pulled out of the debate, fairly typical of both of them as historically they are both unwilling to debate the matter with people more knowledge than themselves. I understand Ian Newby will also take part, should be interesting.


You sure Ian newby isn't going to be featuring in a report on the Paralympics? I heard they are allowing people with learning difficulties to compete now


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## hogboy

They have just mentioned it, looks like it'll be on very soon


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## jimmy c

Has it been on yet?


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## Ghost Pied

What complete garbage!


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## Janine00

NoW!!!


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## Blake1990

This is painful, chris why are you not representing us here, how could we possibly allow Ian newby to try and justify our entire hobby!


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## Janine00

Well that made a lot more sense than Warwick warbling on earlier today!! Good going lads :no1:

Oh, and by the way... I think it's great that others are coming forward to defend our hobby. All respect to Chris, but he really does need to be dealing more with the overarching strategic picture. We need to show that we have more than just Chris out there batting for the many hobbyists there are in this country that can and do look after our reptiles into old age


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## Blake1990

Janine00 said:


> Well that made a lot more sense than Warwick warbling on earlier today!! Good going lads :no1:
> 
> Oh, and by the way... I think it's great that others are coming forward to defend our hobby. All respect to Chris, but he really does need to be dealing more with the overarching strategic picture. We need to show that we have more than just Chris out there batting for the many hobbyists there are in this country that can and do look after our reptiles into old age


It definitely should have been Chris, a very well structured attack is launched on our hobby and we are defended by a guy who owns a fish shop with nothing useful to say (although his actual approach wasn't bad) and a guy who uses his benefit payouts to attempt to care for 50+ animals (I know people who volunteered at DWARF and I would class his husbandry as animal abuse, e.g he doesn't even own a thermostat)

When is the next opportunity going to come for us to defend ourselves on national TV?


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## Chris Newman

Blake1990 said:


> This is painful, chris why are you not representing us here, how could we possibly allow Ian newby to try and justify our entire hobby!


Quite simply I was not asked by the BBC, Simon phoned me and said he had been asked and he is a very capable advocate. Unfortunately I have not seen it yet, but I have had a call from both Simon and Ian who thought it went reasonable wells, so what are others views! I will try and catch it on a repeat latter…


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## Blake1990

Chris Newman said:


> Quite simply I was not asked by the BBC, Simon phoned me and said he had been asked and he is a very capable advocate. Unfortunately I have not seen it yet, but I have had a call from both Simon and Ian who thought it went reasonable wells, so what are others views! I will try and catch it on a repeat latter…


In all fairness Simon did conduct himself well and made a few good points, he certainly didn't have a negative impact but you would have done a much better job Chris, the fact that he makes a living selling reptiles also makes him out to be a very biased and unreliable source. Ian hadn't even bothered to read the article and got walked over by the presenters, I actually think he had a negative impact on the report especially when he went on to brag about the fact he owns a rescue centre that deals with neglected exotics, he should never be in this position. Could neither of them have advised the BBC to contact you? At the end of the day when it comes to media representation I wouldn't expect to see anybody other than yourself sitting in that studio


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## HABU

maybe they should ban palm oil...










and some other things before they go after captive bred animals...




























On the southern margin of the Amazon, in the state of Mato Grosso, Brazil, huge expanses of rainforest are being cleared by industrial soybean, sugar cane, and maize producers. 

Tropical Deforestation : Feature Articles


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## DavidR

It is important to remember that _The Biologist_ is not a peer reviewed journal, despite the claims made on the APA website. As such, I am astonished that the BBC actually reported it as a worthwhile piece of literature expressing the views of scientists. In reality the editors of members magazines are often under pressure to find new material, and will often give the go ahead without much consideration. I suspect that the Society of Biology are regretting their decision now.

The report is as misleading as it is inaccurate, strangely their maths actually adds up to 81%, not the 75% they have been bandying around. This is largely irrelevant because the numbers that this calculation is based on are not appropriate. Putting all reptiles together into a single category isn't fair either. Reptiles are a very diverse (and artificial) grouping. Some reptiles would be expected to live for a very long time (e.g. tortoises), some would only be expected to live for a very short time (e.g. small lizards). If the example was hamsters and the statistic was 99% of hamsters die within first two years of life, after a bit of thought that would probably sound pretty reasonable. Hamsters are biologically predisposed to die within two years of birth, small animals with fast metabolisms aren't built to live a long time. This is as true for reptiles as it is for mammals. This isn't factored in to the calculations anywhere, and there is no break down of how individual groups of reptiles fair.

They present the example of Global Exotics (the exporter which was exposed last year for reprehensible welfare standards) to illustrate how awful the trade in reptiles is. Obviously, it is very easy to misrepresent anything by choosing a bad example (e.g. it is very easy to say 'all people from Essex are stupid, just watch _the only way is Essex_', 'everyone working for the animal protection agency lies about their professional credentials, just look at Clifford Warwick'). This is a very cheap shot and not a fair representation of the trade as a whole.

I think the Society of Biology should be ashamed to be associated with this article, and I look forward to seeing the next edition.

David.


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## Chris Newman

Blake1990 said:


> In all fairness Simon did conduct himself well and made a few good points, he certainly didn't have a negative impact but you would have done a much better job Chris, the fact that he makes a living selling reptiles also makes him out to be a very biased and unreliable source. Ian hadn't even bothered to read the article and got walked over by the presenters, I actually think he had a negative impact on the report especially when he went on to brag about the fact he owns a rescue centre that deals with neglected exotics, he should never be in this position. Could neither of them have advised the BBC to contact you? At the end of the day when it comes to media representation I wouldn't expect to see anybody other than yourself sitting in that studio


Thank you for the kind words, a bolster to my self esteem which has taken a bit of a battering in recent weeks, however, the reality is I am not the best person to do interviews. If I’m asked I will not turn them down but I would never seek to be interviewed, it’s pretty tough thing to do! Whilst I have still yet to see it, I have little doubt that Simon did anything but a sterling job, he’s been there before. And from what I understand Ian deserves credit as well.


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## LiamRatSnake

Scroll to 7.43.
BBC iPlayer - Watch Live - BBC News Channel
In an hour or so it will be lost.
I think both did okay, the bald bloke really well in fact, but noone has the facts and figures like you do - I thoroughly enjoyed you bashing Clifford on the radio a few months back.


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## Blake1990

Chris Newman said:


> Thank you for the kind words, a bolster to my self esteem which has taken a bit of a battering in recent weeks, however, the reality is I am not the best person to do interviews. If I’m asked I will not turn them down but I would never seek to be interviewed, it’s pretty tough thing to do! Whilst I have still yet to see it, I have little doubt that Simon did anything but a sterling job, he’s been there before. And from what I understand Ian deserves credit as well.


Yes I'm aware of a few people who are not exactly supportive of you Chris but I think we are all entitled to our own opinions and from what I have seen you are extremely knowledgeable and dedicated, something this hobby needs. However I will have to disagree with you when you say your not the best person to do interviews. Yes they are difficult and the media aren't exactly sympathetic (or even fair) towards us, but this is even more reason for somebody like you to be representing us, if Clifford or elaine actually had the courage to attend they would have wiped the floor with us in that situation


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## Chris Newman

DavidR said:


> It is important to remember that _The Biologist_ is not a peer reviewed journal, despite the claims made on the APA website. As such, I am astonished that the BBC actually reported it as a worthwhile piece of literature expressing the views of scientists. In reality the editors of members magazines are often under pressure to find new material, and will often give the go ahead without much consideration. I suspect that the Society of Biology are regretting their decision now.
> 
> The report is as misleading as it is inaccurate, strangely their maths actually adds up to 81%, not the 75% they have been bandying around. This is largely irrelevant because the numbers that this calculation is based on are not appropriate. Putting all reptiles together into a single category isn't fair either. Reptiles are a very diverse (and artificial) grouping. Some reptiles would be expected to live for a very long time (e.g. tortoises), some would only be expected to live for a very short time (e.g. small lizards). If the example was hamsters and the statistic was 99% of hamsters die within first two years of life, after a bit of thought that would probably sound pretty reasonable. Hamsters are biologically predisposed to die within two years of birth, small animals with fast metabolisms aren't built to live a long time. This is as true for reptiles as it is for mammals. This isn't factored in to the calculations anywhere, and there is no break down of how individual groups of reptiles fair.
> 
> They present the example of Global Exotics (the exporter which was exposed last year for reprehensible welfare standards) to illustrate how awful the trade in reptiles is. Obviously, it is very easy to misrepresent anything by choosing a bad example (e.g. it is very easy to say 'all people from Essex are stupid, just watch _the only way is Essex_', 'everyone working for the animal protection agency lies about their professional credentials, just look at Clifford Warwick'). This is a very cheap shot and not a fair representation of the trade as a whole.
> 
> I think the Society of Biology should be ashamed to be associated with this article, and I look forward to seeing the next edition.
> 
> David.


You raise an interesting point, when I spoke to the deputy editor of _The Biologist_ he told me that is was peer reviewed, and when I spoke with the reporter from the Daily Mail he said the only reason they were looking at this story was it had been published in a peer review journal? So is it peer reviewed or not? 

The publication is I agree complete rubbish, there is no science it’s merely the political posturing of two long established Animal Rights activists who have collaborated for the best part of two decades. Spouting their personal opinions for political and financial objectives, it has about as much scientific content as a can of baked beans, indeed arguably the latter the significantly science….

Regards your suggestion that the Society of Biology should be ashamed of publishing such detritus, I suspect they themselves are fast coming to that conclusion and like you I look forward to seeing the next issue………


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## DavidR

Chris Newman said:


> You raise an interesting point, when I spoke to the deputy editor of _The Biologist_ he told me that is was peer reviewed, and when I spoke with the reporter from the Daily Mail he said the only reason they were looking at this story was it had been published in a peer review journal? So is it peer reviewed or not?


It is definitely not a peer reviewed journal, it is a membership magazine. It does not publish scientific papers, merely articles about science. The Society of Biology do publish a journal, The Journal of Biological Education, but obviously this article wasn't published in that. I have no idea what the editorial process is for _The Biologist_ but it won't involve traditional peer review.

David.


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## mstypical

LiamRatSnake said:


> Scroll to 7.43.
> BBC iPlayer - Watch Live - BBC News Channel
> In an hour or so it will be lost.
> I think both did okay, the bald bloke really well in fact, but noone has the facts and figures like you do - I thoroughly enjoyed you bashing Clifford on the radio a few months back.


Thanks for the link, I just caught it, it's about to disappear now as it's almost 2 hours old.

It's frightening that this made it on to the news at all really, I have never heard of Mr King before now but I thought he did very well, the guy in hat... well talk about a shameless self-important plug! 

Chris what are we as a community going to do about this? It's becoming all too regular lately for my liking, and we all know that the media can destroy whole cultures with its misinformation long before the facts can be brought to light.


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## Chris Newman

DavidR said:


> It is definitely not a peer reviewed journal, it is a membership magazine. It does not publish scientific papers, merely articles about science. The Society of Biology do publish a journal, The Journal of Biological Education, but obviously this article wasn't published in that. I have no idea what the editorial process is for _The Biologist_ but it won't involve traditional peer review.
> 
> David.


Thank you that is most interesting, more smoke and mirrors? I need to get to the bottom of this….


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## Chris Newman

mstypical said:


> Chris what are we as a community going to do about this? It's becoming all too regular lately for my liking, and we all know that the media can destroy whole cultures with its misinformation long before the facts can be brought to light.


Good question, this is a war that has been ongoing for more then two decades, you are right that it has intensified recently. So what can be done to address the issue that is the question? Suggestions anyone!


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## mstypical

Chris Newman said:


> Good question, this is a war that has been ongoing for more then two decades, you are right that it has intensified recently. So what can be done to address the issue that is the question? Suggestions anyone!


I'm not good at ground-breaking ideas, but i'm good at getting stuck in, so if anyone does come up with anything I will do whatever I can to help defend my choice of pets!


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## Jeffers3

DavidR said:


> It is definitely not a peer reviewed journal, it is a membership magazine. It does not publish scientific papers, merely articles about science. The Society of Biology do publish a journal, The Journal of Biological Education, but obviously this article wasn't published in that. I have no idea what the editorial process is for _The Biologist_ but it won't involve traditional peer review.
> 
> David.


It's not peer reviewed in the way many journals are, but it is the members publication of a learned society and will be reviewed by "experts". Unfortunately, in this case, they haven't done a very good job.

I particularly take objection to the decription of Elaine Toland and Clifford Warwick as scientists. Neither have proper scientific credentials and, if their scientific writing is anything to go by, they have no idea what science is.


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## Jeffers3

Chris Newman said:


> Good question, this is a war that has been ongoing for more then two decades, you are right that it has intensified recently. So what can be done to address the issue that is the question? Suggestions anyone!


We need to fight back in as many ways as is possible. We also need to select the right people to fight the right battles and for everyone to help as much as possible.

You are doing a fantastic job, Chris. We're all very grateful, but you need more help. The will is there, given the responses on this forum.


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## Janine00

Anyone actually put pen to paper, e'mail to BBC, The Scientist etc about the shameless lack of 'peer reviews' in Warwicks work and the way he portrays dedicated hobbyists, the unsubstantiated lies he tells??


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## Chris Newman

mstypical said:


> I'm not good at ground-breaking ideas, but i'm good at getting stuck in, so if anyone does come up with anything I will do whatever I can to help defend my choice of pets!


 
Fair point, let me post here our opponents strategy/objectives. For reasons that I hope people will understand I will not go into details of our counter strategy, however, I would welcome any thoughts people might have. I am more then happy to receive suggestions by PM or email: [email protected]


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## Chris Newman

*Eurogroup for Animals*​


*XXXXXX Briefing document*​

*Introduction*

Background information has been prepared on the organisation *Eurogroup for Animals*, which was formerly known as *Eurogroup for Animal Welfare*, but dropped the reference to ‘welfare’ around 2007. Eurogroup for Animals is a highly political organisation based in Brussels that is fundamentally opposed to our interests in terms of keeping or trade in what are commonly referred to as exotic animals. It is extremely active in engaging with politicians and advising them on animal welfare matters and provides the secretariat for the *Intergroup on Animal Welfare and Conservation *based inStrasbourg.

A primary objective of *XXXXX* must be to similarly engage with politicians in order to provide a balance and decision makers within domestic boarders or within the EU Commission must have access to counter arguments. Animal Rights Organisations have long recognised that influencing decision makers at an early stage is a highly successful strategy and we most adopt a similar methodology. 

_Information in this document is cut and pasted from the Eurogroup for Animals website and is, therefore, in the public domain. I have added my comments in italics where appropriate. _

*Background and history for Eurogroup for animals, from Wikipedia *
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurogroup_for_Animals

*Eurogroup for Animals* is an organisation based in Brussels which seeks to improve the treatment of animals throughout the European Union and represents animal welfare organisations in almost all the European member states. Since it was launched in 1980, the organisation has succeeded in encouraging the European Union to adopt higher legal standards of animal protection.
It provides advice and expertise on animal welfare to various European institutions, such as the European Commission, the Council of Ministers, and the European Parliament. It also provides the secretariat of the European Parliamentary Intergroup on the Welfare and Conservation of Animals, which meets at the European Parliament in Strasbourg once a month.
Eurogroup for Animals also works closely together with retailers to encourage them to adopt higher standards of animal welfare. In addition they campaign to improve the situation of farm animals, research animals, and wild animals. In 2008, the group led a campaign to prevent cloning for food being approved in the European Union.
*British animal welfare organisation RSPCA took the initiative to set up Eurogroup for Animals after noticing more and more legislation relating to animals was being decided at a European level.* Thus in 1980 Eurogroup for Animals was launched becoming the first coalition of animal welfare groups in Europe. It is also one of the longest established non-governmental organisations in Brussels. Over the years Eurogroup for Animals has grown to represent animal welfare organisations in nearly all countries of the European Union. 
*Eurogroup for Animals*
http://eurogroupforanimals.org

Eurogroup for Animals has represented its member organisations - the leading animal welfare organisations of the EU - for more than 30 years. It is successful because it is a federation of 40 like minded organisations that can mobilise millions of citizens to defend the welfare of animals and act to ensure European, national and local decision makers take note and respond to our concerns.
_From June 2011 John Rolls took over as president, having formerly held the formal title head of Animal Welfare for the RSPCA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals). The RSPCA founded Eurogroup for Animals in 1980, but as far as I am aware this is the first time they have taken the presidency & Eurogroup now claim its 40 affiliated organisations have a total of 4.5 million members. _

_The RSPCA is the world’s oldest and largest animal welfare organisation and one of the wealthiest. Annual income exceeds £100 million a year and it has resources of over £200 million. Until quite recently the RSPCA had an open declaration for Animal Rights which was removed from their policy document after the Charity Commission threatened to remove their charitable status. *The RSPCA oppose the sale of animals from pet shops, oppose the trade in wild caught animals and oppose the breeding of captive bred wild animals. The RSPCA also oppose confinement of animals in captivity.*_

*More information on the RSPCA from Wikipedia *
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Society_for_the_Prevention_of_Cruelty_to_Animals
_[Note: I have just noticed that I am credited on Wikipedia as being one of their critics – I am flattered]_
*Eurogroup for Animals’ Annual Report 2010-2011*
http://eurogroupforanimals.org/publications/eurogroup-for-animals-annual-report-2010-2011

_This document is worth reading, particularly pages 12 /13, as it contains many comments which should concern us, notably:_

“Despite the World Organisation for Animal Health (OIE) identifying ranaviruses and the fungal disease chytridiomycosis as notifiable diseases associated with the amphibian trade, the EU has not set health restrictions on such imports.” 

_The EU Commission has already commissioned research in this area, the RANA Project, a three year study which concluded in 2009 & we came very close at this time to ban on importation of amphibians into the EU. This is an issue that will reemerge in due course._



*The Annual Report shows an income for Eurogroup in 2010 to be €1,491,29. The income for just one member (the RSPCA) for the same period was £115,288,000.*


*Wildlife Trade*
http://eurogroupforanimals.org/what-we-do/category/wildlife/wildlife-trade

Exotic animals are traded as pets, for zoos, and for use in research. The EU is a top importer of tropical fish, reptiles, birds and mammals, with 6.7 million live reptiles imported between 2005 and 2007.

The main animal welfare concerns are related to the considerable suffering entailed in the various steps of the trade: capture, killing methods used, or, in the case of animals sold alive, transportation conditions, and keeping conditions at holding centers or at final destination.

WHAT ARE WE CALLING FOR
· A ban on wild-caught animals for the pet trade should be introduced.
· The EU wildlife trade regulation should be better complied with and stricter rules should be introduced.
· It should be compulsory for member states to record mortality rates and the resulting statistics made publicly available.
· Member states should limit the range of species that can be kept by private owners.


*Exotic Pets*
http://eurogroupforanimals.org/what-we-do/category/wildlife/exotic-pets

The import of exotic species for the pet trade threatens the survival of wild species, the welfare of the animals and the health of humans and other animals from the spread of disease. Some wild animals are captured under dire conditions and suffer high mortality rates throughout the trade cycle. The complex needs of exotic animals can be difficult to meet in captivity. When animals become too costly, difficult to manage, or lose their novelty, they are often abandoned and can threaten native wildlife and the ecosystem.

WHAT ARE WE CALLING FOR
· Member States to create lists of species allowed to be kept by private owners based on clear criteria.
· Member States to improve education on the requirements for keeping species to discourage purchases and ensure the welfare of animals in captivity.
· Breeders and pet shops to provide detailed information on the animals they sell.
· Strict recordkeeping and permitting by Competent Authorities to improve monitoring of the exotic animal species currently kept by private individuals.


----------



## Chris Newman

*Invasive Alien Species*
http://eurogroupforanimals.org/what-we-do/category/wildlife/invasive-alien-species
Invasive alien species (IAS) are species whose introduction outside their natural distribution threatens biodiversity. They are the second major driver to biodiversity loss (through predation, competition and hybridisation) after habitat fragmentation. They can also negatively impact animal and human health, the ecosystems and the economy.

Many IAS were introduced intentionally in the EU, i.e. as pets or on fur farms, but problems arose only after the animals escaped or were released into the wild. The introduction of IAS to Europe is a fast process through international trade and travel.
WHAT ARE WE CALLING FOR
· A dedicated legislative instrument and integration of prevention and control measures with other relevant EU policies (e.g. Animal Health Regime).
· Emphasis and resources should be placed on prevention as a priority, with full application of the precautionary principle.
· Creation of a list of species which can be imported and kept, to avoid potential IAS being introduced.
· Regarding control, eradication and management programmes, emphasis should be placed on humane controls which avoid or minimise pain, suffering and distress to target and non-target animals.

*Eurogroup for Animals’ Areas of Concern 2010 *[published May 2011]
http://eurogroupforanimals.org/files/publications/downloads/EurogroupForAnimals-AreasOfConcern2010.pdf

WILDLIFE TRADE
Page 63

Moreover, importation of exotic species can constitute a disease risk. Evidence shows that veterinary controls are not always performed as strictly as they should, increasing this health risk63. Reptiles and birds transmit salmonella to owners and family members, particularly when proper hygiene is not practiced. Diseases such as rabies, monkeypox and herpes B virus have been transmitted from exotic animals to owners and pet shop workers. The fear for an avian influenza pandemic led to the establishment of stricter rules for the import of wild birds in 2006. Import of exotic species can also represent a threat to native species. For example terrapins sold as children’s pets are often dumped in local ponds when they reach adulthood, where they reproduce in warmer areas.

GENERAL WELFARE OF COMPANION ANIMALS
Page 106

Pet animals are most often purchased in shops or direct from the breeder, but may also be found on sale in street markets in some places. They may also be given as competition prizes in fairgrounds or under other circumstances, and in these cases the welfare of the animals cannot be guaranteed.
*Report on health risks from new companion animals* [Posted on 27/10/2011]
http://eurogroupforanimals.org/files/publications/downloads/Zoonotic-risk-report.pdf
A Eurogroup for Animals report released today illustrates the high risk of zoonoses from wild animals kept as pets. Zoonoses are diseases which are passed from animals to humans with sometimes fatal consequences. With an ever growing number of these animals imported, sold and kept in the EU the threat of disease increases and prevention policies are becoming urgent. At a meeting of the European Parliament’s Intergroup on Animal Welfare in Strasbourg, MEPs were asked to support measures to restrict the import of wild animals.


*BRIEFING - Keeping of Exotic Animals: Risks & Related Policies*
http://eurogroupforanimals.org/files/policies/downloads/67/keeping_of_exotic_animals_-_risks_and_related_policies_final.pdf

There is increasing evidence that the import of exotic species for the pet trade threatens not only the survival of wild species and biodiversity, but the health of humans and domestic animals from the transmission of zoonotic diseases. Studies have been released linking pet turtles to bacterial diseases and identifying pythons and boas as high risk invasive species. Many countries are trying to address these issues: the U.S. is considering legislation to ban importation of certain exotic species for the pet trade and in 2007 the EU banned the import of wild-caught birds because of the avian flu health threat.

*EU Parliament & Us*
http://eurogroupforanimals.org/about-us/eu-parliament-and-us

_“Eurogroup for Animals is actively engaged with the European Parliament and many of our activities are directed at this institution and its work programme.”_

*Intergroup on Animal Welfare and Conservation *[Established in 1983]
http://www.animalwelfareintergroup.eu/

_“As the leading animal welfare organisation in the European Union Eurogroup has provided the secretariat for the Intergroup on Animal Welfare and Conservation since its inauguration. The Intergroup brings together likeminded MEPs from all political groups to debate and learn about animal welfare related issues and to encourage them to act and ensure that all EU legislation respects animals and their welfare._

_The Intergroup meetings during each Strasbourg plenary session and more information on its membership and activities can be found on its website”_

_This is potentially one of the most dangerous areas for us as it allows Eurogroup for Animals to directly influence decision makers within the EU. A similar situation exists in the UK where by the RSPCA established and runs the secretariat for: _

*The Associate Parliamentary Group for Animal Welfare (APGAW) *
http://www.apgaw.org
_APGAW holds meetings in parliament to facilitate interaction between interest groups, predominately those opposed to keeping of exotic pets and sympathetic politicians, and rarely are these discussions balanced._

*The Transatlantic Animal Welfare Council (TAWC)*
http://eurogroupforanimals.org/what-we-do/category/trade-animals/transatlantic-animal-welfare-council

What is the Transatlantic Animal Welfare Council?

_“The EU and the US are the two largest trading blocs in the world, together EU/US trade accounts for 56% of the world’s GPD and 33% of its trade in goods, and whilst policy developments and legislation are monitored closely from both sides of the Atlantic, there is very little structured cooperation between the leading animal welfare organisations. Contacts historically between the EU and US groups have been organised on a bilateral and ad-hoc basis.”_
Members: Eurogroup for Animals, The Humane Society international, International Fund for Animal Welfare, RSPCA….
_The formation of such a group is of cause for concern as the reptile industry in the EU is heavily reliant on the importation of livestock from the USA to the EU, be this re-exports of wild-caught animals or imports of captive-bred animals. Historically, coalitions of anti trade/keeping organisations have influenced airlines not to carry livestock, for example previous prohibitions on carrying birds into the EU by airlines. _



Document prepared by Chris Newman, 27th January 2012


----------



## mstypical

Chris Newman said:


> Fair point, let me post here our opponents strategy/objectives. For reasons that I hope people will understand I will not go into details of our counter strategy, however, I would welcome any thoughts people might have. I am more then happy to receive suggestions by PM or email: [EMAIL="[email protected]"][email protected][/EMAIL]


I don't want to clog up your inboxes if I don't have anything of worth to offer; but you can see my location, I am articulate and probably have some other useful qualities, if there is anything at all I could do to help, however 'mundane', please PM me : victory:


----------



## chalky76

Jeffers3 said:


> Hi Chris
> 
> As an academic working in a bioscience department of a University, who is also Editor-in-Chief of a scientific journal, I am appalled that The Biologist has published this article. I will be contacting the journal about this and will insist that they correct the ridiculous claims and statistics.
> 
> Let me know if you want to chat about this.


Please make sure you do and keep us posted


----------



## Lutra Garouille

I earned the letters before and after my name after years of study and it's so frustrating to see these fake scientists getting their nonsense published! 

I will be very interested to hear how discussions with the publication go!

As for what we can do? Don't panic or over react. The health and safety aspect wont stand up and as long as there are more keepers than haters the political stance should be that the science speaks for itself. The real science i mean. We do not want to stoop to their level - we need to remain factual and keep disproving their nonsense. We also need to keep an eye on what they are doing. Just in case...

Although lobbying and animal welfare can get things large amounts of attention in the press the scientific rebuttals to the reported 'facts' will stand up. 

But clearly the APA have decided that the time is now to try to make a stand. Animal right/welfare organisations do not have a higely succvessful track record as although they cause a stir, the effects are not long lasting. We need to get facts together and actual science to completely disprove their nonsense. That way we can support our arguments with real facts from actual scientists rather than emotive, fake and ludicrous accusations from unscientific activists. 

If Jeffers3 can get the inside on why on earth it was published maybe we can get either a retraction or a scientific article with references to disprove their wild maths as just that?

There doesn't seem to be a reason behind their dislike of the hobby really. Nothing substantial. Almost like its their opinions...


----------



## LiamRatSnake

Janine00 said:


> Anyone actually put pen to paper, e'mail to BBC, The Scientist etc about the shameless lack of 'peer reviews' in Warwicks work and the way he portrays dedicated hobbyists, the unsubstantiated lies he tells??


I've done both, if enough people do it hopefully they won't get any more air time which is a start. I also emailed the Sun after they printed some of his spoutings.


----------



## mstypical

LiamRatSnake said:


> I've done both, if enough people do it hopefully they won't get any more air time which is a start. I also emailed the Sun after they printed some of his spoutings.


Can you PM me the e-mail addresses you sent them to, i'll send something to the same ones. I could Google e-mail details, but i'd rather 100's went to the same inbox, than a couple to hundreds of inboxes...


----------



## Janine00

Chris.... thanks so much for putting that all in one place for me.... was chasing round a little earlier looking for examples for a few people that want it laid on a plate for them.... can now link this thread!!!! Cheers.. J:2thumb:


----------



## Janine00

*BBC - Complaints - Complain Online*

*Complaint title:*​
Very biased and factually inaccurate

*Complaint description:*​
I was amazed to see a clip on your news channel today around reptile deaths. I believe Mr. Clifford Warwick is not factual at the best of times and believe his papers are not peer reviewed in any true scientific journals of any importance. From what I have been able to find to date, most of his articles are supposedly ‘peer reviewed’ by his own publications. What offended me most is that not only did you give him airtime, but you did not ask anyone else along to put the other side of the story, or verify in any way what he said. I was even more angry this evening when watching a segment shown to supposedly put the other side of this point of view to find that the original caption showing supposed statistics that 75% of exotics die within one year! The two people you did choose to ask to come forward to rebut the earlier issue were not necessarily the best people for the job, however I felt that Simon King did a reasonable job and even Ian Newby made a few good points. However, it would be very easy for anyone viewing this to say that they were perhaps more than slightly biased due to the fact they both make money from the reptile trade. Maybe you are not aware of the ASA recently making a ruling about a Lush commercial that implied some of what Mr. Warwick has claimed as truth and stopped any further showing of that particular advertisement? I thought that the BBC had certain standards and upheld some form of balanced viewpoint. I was sadly disappointed today. JB

Like to point out that this is not actually what I think of the two gents who went on later to answer the issue..... just pointing out that (it's likely that the deadly duo will say) they would say that yada yada yahhhh..... 

Have taken my name and location off bottom for obvious reasons, however, I would urge as many people to complain as possible..... J


----------



## LiamRatSnake

mstypical said:


> Can you PM me the e-mail addresses you sent them to, i'll send something to the same ones. I could Google e-mail details, but i'd rather 100's went to the same inbox, than a couple to hundreds of inboxes...


I emailed [email protected] and filled in this Contact us - www.societyofbiology.org.
For the BBC I filled in their complaints form and on all three sent the link to the ASA report.


----------



## Tarron

Could we not get an investigation carried out ourselves?

The fbh has wide access to a large majority of reptile keepers, so along as true honest answers are given, the report should be fairly accurate. You would have to include wc in there, how many survive the first year etc and get answers from the importers as well.
I guarantee the numbers would be a lot lower.

Also include the average survival rate of species in the wild, who wins keepers or mother nature?


----------



## Spikebrit

Lutra Garouille said:


> I earned the letters before and after my name after years of study and it's so frustrating to see these fake scientists getting their nonsense published!
> 
> I will be very interested to hear how discussions with the publication go!
> 
> As for what we can do? Don't panic or over react. The health and safety aspect wont stand up and as long as there are more keepers than haters the political stance should be that the science speaks for itself. The real science i mean. We do not want to stoop to their level - we need to remain factual and keep disproving their nonsense. We also need to keep an eye on what they are doing. Just in case...
> 
> Although lobbying and animal welfare can get things large amounts of attention in the press the scientific rebuttals to the reported 'facts' will stand up.
> 
> But clearly the APA have decided that the time is now to try to make a stand. Animal right/welfare organisations do not have a higely succvessful track record as although they cause a stir, the effects are not long lasting. We need to get facts together and actual science to completely disprove their nonsense. That way we can support our arguments with real facts from actual scientists rather than emotive, fake and ludicrous accusations from unscientific activists.
> 
> If Jeffers3 can get the inside on why on earth it was published maybe we can get either a retraction or a scientific article with references to disprove their wild maths as just that?
> 
> There doesn't seem to be a reason behind their dislike of the hobby really. Nothing substantial. Almost like its their opinions...


Completely agree, I have worked hard to get letters before and after my name, and take great offense to psudo-scientists and psudo-psycholgists. 

if we could get a retraction or even publish counter maybe that would bolster out causes. i would be happy to work on an academic paper if i can help at all. 

Chris, i have sent you a PM. 

if someone could post the two email addresses that we need to email to raise our concerns with the BBC and other, could they be posted on here and I will send some emails off. With the start of a new academic year, I've been a tad busy. 

Jay


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## mstypical

Chris I have complained to the BBC, hopefully it will no harm, and maybe even a bit of good?


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## mstypical

*BBC Reply*

Chris this is the reply I got from the complaints department at the beeb;

Dear Ms C

Reference *****

Thanks for contacting us regarding the BBC News channel.

I understand you were unhappy with the reporting on a study from the Animal Protection Agency (APA), first reported on the channel on 29 August, about the welfare of captive reptiles and the trade in exotic pets.

In covering a story it can be difficult to include or explore every view in each instance; throughout the day however you will often find a fuller range of views and responses to new stories like this covered across our coverage.

For example, on the BBC News channel at 19:43 that day, in relation to this story, the report was covered again with interviews with two guests with exotic pet experience.

At the start of the item it was clearly stated that this was news of a new study and that these were the ‘claims’ of the APA – for the viewer to be clear it’s not the BBC making these claims. The item also featured the views of the two guests, Iain Newby from the Dangerous Wild Animal Rescue Facility in Essex, and Simon King from Reptile World in London.

The first question asked was where they stood on this report. Iain Newby replied first saying that he thought the figures were ‘overcast’ and quoted his own very different figure of 0.5% of animals dying when coming into the country. Simon King then responded that the figures would only be sad “if they were true”.

Simon King also went on to add that he would question why the Society of Biology even allowed this study to be published in the first place, and that the report seemed to have plucked the figure of 75% of animals dying out of thin air.

I’m therefore sorry if you felt our coverage of this story was poor or lacked balance as, across our output, a range of views on the study, including those highly critical of it were included.

Nevertheless, I'd like to assure you that we've registered your comments on our audience log. This is the internal report of audience feedback we compile daily for the programme makers and senior management within the BBC. The audience logs are important documents that can help shape future decisions and they ensure that your points, and all other comments we receive, are made available to BBC staff across the Corporation.

Thanks again for contacting us.

Kind Regards

Stuart Webb
BBC Complaints
BBC - Complaints - Home


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## Chris Newman

Thank you to everyone who complained to the BBC, it does help. 

I can’t go into any great detail at the moment but yesterday I had a very long conversation with a producer, the BBC or indeed any media can be exploited for political agendas. What they are looking for is good stories and sometime the story is not story that it first appeared to be! After years of pushing for the very first time Mr Warwick has agreed to participate in a television debate with me, should be very interesting and revealing; let’s get to the truth for once!


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## Tarron

That's brilliant news Chris, I can't wait to see it.

Any idea when it is likely to be? I hope you wipe the ground with him. Or at least wind him up to the point he loses whatever credibility he actually has.


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## Chris Newman

I really can’t say much at the moment, but as soon as I can I will make sure you all know the date it will be broadcast. Perhaps I should get a t-shirt printed with “unqualified pet peddler” what do you think!


----------



## mstypical

Chris Newman said:


> I really can’t say much at the moment, but as soon as I can I will make sure you all know the date it will be broadcast. Perhaps I should get a t-shirt printed with “unqualified pet peddler” what do you think!


I can't wait for this, I can't really believe he agreed to it; he must actually believe his own BS!


----------



## Tarron

Chris Newman said:


> I really can’t say much at the moment, but as soon as I can I will make sure you all know the date it will be broadcast. Perhaps I should get a t-shirt printed with “unqualified pet peddler” what do you think!


I can understand not being able to say anything Chris (though I'm sure some people here will want all the details on a platter for them!). I look forward to seeing it though.
I wold pay to see you wear that T Shirt :rotfl:

Incidentally Chris, did you see my thread about the APAs latest claims. Apparently the ASA adjudcation was deeply flawed and they even apologised to the APA for some reason. Im awaiting a reply from the ASA as we speak.


----------



## Graham

Very much looking forward to seeing this. I'm sure you don't need telling Chris, but please be sure to challenge his credentials while you have him on TV, I'd love to see him explain exactly what all those bogus letters after his name actually mean!


----------



## Chris Newman

Tarron said:


> Incidentally Chris, did you see my thread about the APAs latest claims. Apparently the ASA adjudcation was deeply flawed and they even apologised to the APA for some reason. Im awaiting a reply from the ASA as we speak.


I did, the APA are behaving like a small child who just had there bottom spanked – running around screaming, crying and having a right tantrum….. some people have no dignity!


----------



## Chris Newman

Graham said:


> Very much looking forward to seeing this. I'm sure you don't need telling Chris, but please be sure to challenge his credentials while you have him on TV, I'd love to see him explain exactly what all those bogus letters after his name actually mean!


Ohh trust me that will be top of my agenda, will also have some price list from the 1970's with me as well!


----------



## Tarron

Chris Newman said:


> I did, the APA are behaving like a small child who just had there bottom spanked – running around screaming, crying and having a right tantrum….. some people have no dignity!


Oh Chris, you are so eloquent. I'm looking forward the ASA reply, should be interesting. 
And, when have the APA ever not acted like a small child?



Chris Newman said:


> Ohh trust me that will be top of my agenda, will also have some price list from the 1970's with me as well!


This gets better and better!


----------



## Spikebrit

Chris Newman said:


> I really can’t say much at the moment, but as soon as I can I will make sure you all know the date it will be broadcast. Perhaps I should get a t-shirt printed with “unqualified pet peddler” what do you think!


I would love to have one of these lol. I think all stall holders at Doncaster should have one. I feel the FBH should give these out lol. 

Jay


----------



## Row'n'Bud

Great news Chris....perhaps this will keep the neighsayers happy for a day or two, although I doubt it ...........lol
Will be great to see the great "scientist" in the lime light for once !!


----------



## Janine00

Chris Newman said:


> Thank you to everyone who complained to the BBC, it does help.


I would like to think and sincerely hope that those of us who actually did complain may have actively contributed to the BBC's decision to approach you, or at least confirm that they were maybe right to do so.




Tarron said:


> I wold pay to see you wear that T Shirt :rotfl:


As would I.... particularly if you can link it in to his supposedly 'scientific' qualifications.... come on folks..... how much can we raise with this one!! :lol2:



Chris Newman said:


> Ohh trust me that will be top of my agenda, will also have some price list from the 1970's with me as well!


That will be something to see.... most of us will have done things in the past that were perfectly (or maybe almost perfectly :whistling2 well accepted at the time. The thing about time is, it gives us space to grow and change... I hope I'm right in saying that many of us try to change for the better and learn from our past mistakes. However, from what I have read so far, it seems Mr. W continues to compound his past mistakes instead of learning from them..... especially around his 'qualifications' :blush:


----------



## LiamRatSnake

This is good to hear but also worrying - he's so sure that he's right and has no qualms about misusing data. I think the most important part is proving that his article is based on no evidence. Also I know there's lots of rumors about sex offences ect within the APA but to bring these up, even if they're true, will just look like desperate defensive behaviour and will not put us in a good light - I worry about how we'll be viewed if personal tactics are used. I'm sure you're more responsible than that but I would be very very tempted myself if any of it was true.
I'd love to see his credentials bashed though 
I look forward to it and very very good luck. I'm sure you'll do us well. : victory:


----------



## NorthamptonReptileCentre

Oh dear, even for pseudoscience this is drivel


----------



## Lil_nightmare

Now I could be talking complete garbage BUT I think to combat the health and safety issues maybe try and get some official figures as to how many hospital trips related to exotic animal injuries/illness there are per year compared to other "domesticated" animals.


----------



## Scoob100

Unfortunately this is also being picked up by the professional vet press and is being cited without question, it was front page news in this weeks Vet Times and also prominently displayed and marketed through the MRCVS website, twitter feeds etc.


----------



## Scoob100

Links to vet press:

75% of exotic pets survive less than a year, claims study | Latest headlines | Vetsonline

MRCVS.co.uk - 75% of exotic pets survive less than one year


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

^
Thats interesting, I picked up on that vets online article when it was published and some well worded replies were posted, and now it appears they have all been removed?


----------



## Janine00

Wonder what the agenda is there then???? Already under someone's thumb? Begs the question does it not. Unfortunately I am not a vet etc., otherwise I would be tempted to ask that question :lol2:


----------



## bbav

Make you wonder where the extortionate vets fee go that's for sure :gasp:


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

it seems comments are now being forwarded to the editorial team, plot thickens!


----------



## SnakeBreeder

LFBP-NEIL said:


> it seems comments are now being forwarded to the editorial team, plot thickens!


I've just been on and been able to leave a comment.
How long it is there is anyones guess.


----------



## Row'n'Bud

Seems that maybe a few vets would have little to no interest in having to learn about their biology and treatments if they become even more popular to the point of average household pets....over here we can count decent reptile vets on one hand and have a few digits left over


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## Tarron

I've just given my tuppenceworth on the vet page. Hopefully, the editor will get in touch lol


----------



## Geomyda

LFBP-NEIL said:


> ^
> Thats interesting, I picked up on that vets online article when it was published and some well worded replies were posted, and now it appears they have all been removed?


fascinating observation!
Did anyone keep a screen copy of these replies, before they were removed?


----------



## Tarron

Chris Newman said:


> I did, the APA are behaving like a small child who just had there bottom spanked – running around screaming, crying and having a right tantrum….. some people have no dignity!


Thought I'd add this here to. The ASA reply to my complaint about the APAs lies.



> Dear Tarron,
> 
> Thanks for your email.
> 
> As you are neither the advertiser nor the complainant in this case, it would not be appropriate to comment on the details of the investigation. However, I would say that the ASA does accept surveys as substantiation for advertising claims, depending on the level of the claim. High level claims generally require greater levels of substantiation than low level claims, for example.
> 
> Additionally, as is outlined in our adjudication, available here, the surveys which were submitted involved estimated figures, and did not encompass the entire reptile trade, which was what the advertising claim had made reference to, and so was not considered acceptable substantiation.
> 
> An advertiser is always given the opportunity to comment on any draft recommendation before it is presented to the ASA Council and, following the conclusion of an ASA investigation, both the advertiser and the complainant have the right to appeal the decision using the free Independent Review process. If there were any substantive flaw in the ASA process, the Independent Review process would identify that.
> 
> The information on the APA’s website would not come within the ASA’s remit, as it does not constitute advertising material, so we will not be taking any further steps with regards to it. However, thank you for taking the time to email us and bringing it to our attention.
> 
> Kind regards,


Nothing I didn't expect, but hopefully the ASA will follow it up in a personal manner, to remove the lies told about them.


----------



## gmccurdie

Chris Newman said:


> I did, the APA are behaving like a small child who just had there bottom spanked – running around screaming, crying and having a right tantrum….. some people have no dignity!


they could always forget it ever happened and move on without mentioning it again:whistling2:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/hobby-issues-information/853797-final-post-rfuk.html 
The moving finger writes; and, having writ,
moves on: nor all thy piety nor wit,
shall lure it back to cancel half a line
nor all thy tears wash out a word of it

Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám


----------



## mstypical

gmccurdie said:


> they could always forget it ever happened and move on without mentioning it again:whistling2:
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/hobby-issues-information/853797-final-post-rfuk.html
> The moving finger writes; and, having writ,
> moves on: nor all thy piety nor wit,
> shall lure it back to cancel half a line
> nor all thy tears wash out a word of it
> 
> Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám


What's _your_ problem? 

I'm glad Chris stayed, don't know about anyone else?


----------



## Tarron

gmccurdie said:


> they could always forget it ever happened and move on without mentioning it again:whistling2:
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/hobby-issues-information/853797-final-post-rfuk.html
> The moving finger writes; and, having writ,
> moves on: nor all thy piety nor wit,
> shall lure it back to cancel half a line
> nor all thy tears wash out a word of it
> 
> Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám


Yes, things were said, and like grown ups, things were sorted and we're all moving on with our lives.

I'm also very glad Chris stuck here


----------



## Pete Q

gmccurdie said:


> they could always forget it ever happened and move on without mentioning it again:whistling2:
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/hobby-issues-information/853797-final-post-rfuk.html
> The moving finger writes; and, having writ,
> moves on: nor all thy piety nor wit,
> shall lure it back to cancel half a line
> nor all thy tears wash out a word of it
> 
> Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám


Great, another sniper.


----------



## bbav

Pete Q said:


> Great, another sniper.


You spelt trolling idiot wrong


----------



## gmccurdie

Chris Newman said:


> I really can’t say much at the moment, but as soon as I can I will make sure you all know the date it will be broadcast. Perhaps I should get a t-shirt printed with “unqualified pet peddler” what do you think!





Chris Newman said:


> I did, the APA are behaving like a small child who just had there bottom spanked – running around screaming, crying and having a right tantrum….. some people have no dignity!





Chris Newman said:


> Ohh trust me that will be top of my agenda, will also have some price list from the 1970's with me as well!





Tarron said:


> Yes, things were said, and like grown ups, things were sorted and we're all moving on with our lives.
> 
> I'm also very glad Chris stuck here


Also glad he is still around as nobody else seems to want the role!

The thread got people moving in a constructive way. The playground name calling lowers the tone. You can't have it both ways. The main focus should be demonstrating that the science/ facts in the article are at best inaccurate and at worst deliberately misleading. Childish name calling will only distract from the argument and leave people believing that we have nothing else to challenge with.

When pointing out someone else's tantrum always remember the last one you had and don't underline it by saying "some people have no dignity".

Lets hope the TV debate doesn't get personal.


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## mstypical

gmccurdie said:


> Also glad he is still around as nobody else seems to want the role!
> 
> The thread got people moving in a constructive way. The playground name calling lowers the tone. You can't have it both ways. The main focus should be demonstrating that the science/ facts in the article are at best inaccurate and at worst deliberately misleading. Childish name calling will only distract from the argument and leave people believing that we have nothing else to challenge with.
> 
> When pointing out someone else's tantrum always remember the last one you had and don't underline it by saying "some people have no dignity".
> 
> Lets hope the TV debate doesn't get personal.


Chris is a human being who absorbs all kinds of unwarranted flak, it's easy to forget we are dealing with people, who have feelings and other things going on in their lives, when we are online. I'm sure you've contradicted yourself once.


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## gmccurdie

Pete Q said:


> Great, another sniper.





bbav said:


> You spelt trolling idiot wrong


You mean devils advocate.:lol2:


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## gmccurdie

mstypical said:


> Chris is a human being who absorbs all kinds of unwarranted flak, it's easy to forget we are dealing with people, who have feelings and other things going on in their lives, when we are online. I'm sure you've contradicted yourself once.


Guilty:blush:

I know who he is, all that he does and that he does all this with more "going on" than the average guy.:2thumb:

But, I don't hold myself up as representing any group larger than one. I can afford to be stupid once in a while (or maybe more often).

When representing a group you have to weigh your words more carefully. However you want to dress it up at the end of the day Chris is politically active.


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## Pete Q

gmccurdie said:


> Guilty:blush:
> 
> I know who he is, all that he does and that he does all this with more "going on" than the average guy.:2thumb:
> 
> But, I don't hold myself up as representing any group larger than one. I can afford to be stupid once in a while (or maybe more often).
> 
> 
> When representing a group you have to weigh your words more carefully. However you want to dress it up at the end of the day Chris is politically active.


We have all said things that maybe classed as stupid at times, me included, sometimes in anger or while emotional, add some passion then this will always be the case.
All we can do is try and learn from it I guess and just think before we post, we havn't got to be heading anything or be politically active for that and if someone is politically active for your benifit it seems a little crazy to post stuff that will likely just stir things up more .: victory:


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## bbav

Pete Q said:


> We have all said things that maybe classed as stupid at times, me included, sometimes in anger or while emotional, add some passion then this will always be the case.
> All we can do is try and learn from it I guess and just think before we post, we havn't got to be heading anything or be politically active for that and* if someone is politically active for your benefit it seems a little crazy to post stuff that will likely just stir things up more *.: victory:


Totally agree!
This is what you people that are constantly sniping at Chris need to realize.
Most of you are moaning that you aren't kept informed of every little move the FBH makes yet every time Chris posts on this forum he is met with constant criticism!
I wouldn't blame him if he did carry out his threat of not posting on here ever again.


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## badger13

Forget the APA we are doing a good job of self destruction ourselves. Constant bickering amongst members is not good for our hobby. Constructive feedback is another thing. Sorry Chris mate but it looks like snipping on these forums is part of the job unfortunately. Just a thought how many members of IHS ARE MEMBERS OR SUPPORTERS OF THE APA?


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## Tarron

Badger, my thoughts or assumptions would be 0%. The ihs do a good job to make members aware of the apa for anyone to be misled.

In fact, if any reptile keeper is an apa member, they have clearly never even checked the apa website.
I don't think the sniping is our downfall, though it doesn't help.


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## badger13

Tarron
Its just the old adage divide and conquer. And there are spies in every camp. I would not put it past the APA to try and get rid of Chris by any means necessary. I believe the IHS would be a lot weaker if he was hounded out


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## Chris Newman

gmccurdie said:


> Also glad he is still around as nobody else seems to want the role!
> 
> The thread got people moving in a constructive way. The playground name calling lowers the tone. You can't have it both ways. The main focus should be demonstrating that the science/ facts in the article are at best inaccurate and at worst deliberately misleading. Childish name calling will only distract from the argument and leave people believing that we have nothing else to challenge with.
> 
> When pointing out someone else's tantrum always remember the last one you had and don't underline it by saying "some people have no dignity".
> 
> Lets hope the TV debate doesn't get personal.


I think my comments re the APA are fair, reasonable and proportionate – they are behaving like spoilt brats!! The got their bottom spanked by the ASA and rather than taking it with some dignity they behaving like a spoilt child!

Now if you want personal or entirely inappropriate comments then perhaps you should look at the actions of Clifford Warwick, live on BBC he called me an “unqualified pet peddler” – then proceeded to tell the presented she didn’t know what she was talking about! That kind of behaviour is inappropriate and unprofessional, in my opinion. 

As for the TV debate, sadly as I fully expected Clifford has subsequently declined. Which is a pity as I was going to reunite him with one of the animals he sold me back in 1975/6….. another time perhaps.


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## Tarron

Chris Newman said:


> Thank you to everyone who complained to the BBC, it does help.
> 
> I can’t go into any great detail at the moment but yesterday I had a very long conversation with a producer, the BBC or indeed any media can be exploited for political agendas. What they are looking for is good stories and sometime the story is not story that it first appeared to be! After years of pushing for the very first time Mr Warwick has agreed to participate in a television debate with me, should be very interesting and revealing; let’s get to the truth for once!


Funny that he is initially happy to be interviewed



Chris Newman said:


> As for the TV debate, sadly as I fully expected Clifford has subsequently declined. Which is a pity as I was going to reunite him with one of the animals he sold me back in 1975/6….. another time perhaps.


But then backs out when (I assume) he realises that you have agreed to it too.

Almost like, he agreed to look good thinking you would decline, making you look bad.

You should see if they will still do the interview, then it's all sided to us. You make Elaine and Clifford look like idiots lol. They would do exactly the same in this situations


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## Row'n'Bud

Chris, that interview should have been pay for view as the look on his face when you presented said animal onto his lap would have been priceless ....lmfao:notworthy::notworthy:

Now talk your way out of that one Cliff :bash:


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## WYATT666

just read most of this and so much so i have asked my reef group for there opinions because it will affect that side of the hobby aswell as most other things so just getting some info from them aswell


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