# Latest news re the EU Invasive Alien Species legislation



## Natrix

I have just been informed that the EU Commission voted on the 4th Dec to adopt the list of Invasive Alien Species as proposed. This new legislation comes into effect on the 2nd of Jan 2016 but will take time to implement into UK legislation. 
This list includes Red Eared Terrapins and Yellow bellied terrapins (the two most commonly kept species in the UK) as well as chipmunks, racoons and coatis. 
This is only the starter list and it will be reviewed every three years. Animal rights groups and environmental groups will be pushing to get more pet species added at future reviews.
As things currently stand we think private owners will be allowed permits to keep their animals for the rest of their natural life span but will be banned from breeding, buying and selling them. Commercial owners (i.e. Zoo’s, wildlife park, animal encounter groups etc.) will not be allowed to keep the animal listed and will have to euthanize all animals kept but this may change in the future.
The list is going to be challenged in the European Parliament on the 15th of this month and keepers can write to their MEP’s asking them to support the challenge.
This has the potential to be an absolute disaster for animal welfare and indeed invasive species as this will undoubtedly lead to huge numbers of animals being released into the wild, if people think their animals are going to be threatened with being removed and euthanatized. It also appears to be a death sentence for many animals held in zoos. Whilst I am sure the Animal Rights Industry will be ecstatic those of us with empathy for animals and a passion for animal welfare will be deeply disappointed. Today is a very sad day.
There is a Facebook page for those affected by this at https://www.facebook.com/groups/800115073428771/?fref=ts


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## ian14

Having read through the legislation, I haven't seen anything that stats that commercial owners will have to euthanize. I may have missed that bit, could you provide the relevant section of the EU regulation that states this please?
I'm struggling to see the rationale behind "private keeper can keep the specimen, zoos can't"


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## Harbinger

Sickening...


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## Harbinger

Where is the current complete list anyhow?


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## wilkinss77

ian14 said:


> Having read through the legislation, I haven't seen anything that stats that commercial owners will have to euthanize. I may have missed that bit, could you provide the relevant section of the EU regulation that states this please?
> I'm struggling to see the rationale behind "private keeper can keep the specimen, zoos can't"


This. & zoos without racoons?:gasp:


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## AdamAnt

Euthanasia of those already in captivity? That's some backwards legislation.


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## FishForLife2001

I find it ironic how they are banning many popular pet species classed as invasive, but ignore the fact that the massive amounts of cats in this country are more damaging and abundant than a few populations of other invasive animals. 

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


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## wilkinss77

AdamAnt said:


> Euthanasia of those already in captivity? That's some backwards legislation.


Well it will be impractical, not to mention impossible for them to track down every private owner of invasive animals, batter their door down, & declare 'We've come to kill your pets!' But they can & will do that to zoos.


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## fazzer

ian14 said:


> Having read through the legislation, I haven't seen anything that stats that commercial owners will have to euthanize. I may have missed that bit, could you provide the relevant section of the EU regulation that states this please?
> I'm struggling to see the rationale behind "private keeper can keep the specimen, zoos can't"


I can't find it either .Very strange as what's to stop zoos etc simply giving the animals to private keepers . Can't be right surely


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## colinm

The legislation has been rejected by the European Parliament with a large majority. This doesnt mean that it will not become law as the European Commission can ignore the vote and still implement the regulation.


But its a a start and gives breathing space for people to write to the MP (not MEP) and to Lord Gardiner at DEFRA to ask whether the UK will ask the European Commission to recommend the withdraw the legislation and time for definitive assessments to be carried out and a vote on a species by species basis.

Lord Gardiner,
DEFRA Offices,
Nobel House, 17 Smith Square,
London. SW1P 3JR


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## AdamAnt

colinm said:


> The legislation has been rejected by the European Parliament with a large majority. This doesnt mean that it will not become law as the European Commission can ignore the vote and still implement the regulation.


I'm pleasantly surprised that the EU Parliament had done something good for a change.


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## supatips

colinm said:


> The legislation has been rejected by the European Parliament with a large majority. This doesnt mean that it will not become law as the European Commission can ignore the vote and still implement the regulation.
> 
> 
> But its a a start and gives breathing space for people to write to the MP (not MEP) and to Lord Gardiner at DEFRA to ask whether the UK will ask the European Commission to recommend the withdraw the legislation and time for definitive assessments to be carried out and a vote on a species by species basis.
> 
> Lord Gardiner,
> DEFRA Offices,
> Nobel House, 17 Smith Square,
> London. SW1P 3JR
> 
> image


I've only just noticed this. 

In short nothing has changed for the time being then? No licensing, bans on keeping certain species, etc. I mean.


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## colinm

No , nothing has changed for the time being. But, that doesnt mean that it will not. As I stated previously the E.U. Commission can pass laws whether or not THE MEPs have voted to ban them or not. I wonder how much of our domestic legislation has been brought in by these Brussels mandarins ?


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## supatips

colinm said:


> No , nothing has changed for the time being. But, that doesnt mean that it will not. As I stated previously the E.U. Commission can pass laws whether or not THE MEPs have voted to ban them or not. I wonder how much of our domestic legislation has been brought in by these Brussels mandarins ?


I daresay far too many.

At least short term it gives people some breathing room.

Cheers for the update.


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## ian14

> The legislation has been rejected by the European Parliament with a large majority. This doesnt mean that it will not become law as the European Commission can ignore the vote and still implement the regulation.





colinm said:


> No , nothing has changed for the time being. But, that doesnt mean that it will not. As I stated previously the E.U. Commission can pass laws whether or not THE MEPs have voted to ban them or not. I wonder how much of our domestic legislation has been brought in by these Brussels mandarins ?


Sorry, Colin, you are wrong. And as is so often the case with FBH posts.

The EU Commission CANNOT overrule EU Parliament. The Comission simply proposes laws. These can only be passed by Parliament.

I quote (EUROPA - European Commission - The EU institutions explained)



> The European Commission is the EU's politically independent executive arm. It is alone responsible for drawing up proposals for new European legislation, and it implements the decisions of the European Parliament and the Council of the EU.


How then can the Commision overrule a Parliament decision?

So far as I can see, if the EU Parliament have voted against, then that's the end. Thankfully.

Why is it that representatives of the FBH always want to see negative, always want to tell hobbyists that the powers that be are against them, even when something positive like this happens????


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## Natrix

ian14 said:


> Sorry, Colin, you are wrong. And as is so often the case with FBH posts.
> 
> The EU Commission CANNOT overrule EU Parliament. The Comission simply proposes laws. These can only be passed by Parliament.
> 
> I quote (EUROPA - European Commission - The EU institutions explained)
> 
> 
> 
> How then can the Commision overrule a Parliament decision?
> 
> So far as I can see, if the EU Parliament have voted against, then that's the end. Thankfully.
> 
> Why is it that representatives of the FBH always want to see negative, always want to tell hobbyists that the powers that be are against them, even when something positive like this happens????


I am no expert on Europe but as I understand it, the unelected commission creates the legislation. The elected EU parliament can then vote against the legislation if they don't like it and have to state what it is they don't like. It is then returned to the commission for tweeking before being presented again and again and again etc.
Basically the elected MEP's can not get rid of this legislation and the commission will continue to tweek it and push it through until they get the yes vote they want.
Sorry if I'm wrong but this is how it was explained to me by an EU MEP.


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## DW2013

*Concern regarding turtles*

So, has this list become law now Colin? Lots are saying that you cannot give away sliders, which would present a problem to those who can't keep them any more.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur

DW2013 said:


> So, has this list become law now Colin? Lots are saying that you cannot give away sliders, which would present a problem to those who can't keep them any more.


Yes, in August. I know it is the Daily Mail, but its handy for a quick check of what is/isn't included:

The list of 37 invasive species banned from the UK from today.  | Daily Mail Online


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## supatips

DW2013 said:


> So, has this list become law now Colin? Lots are saying that you cannot give away sliders, which would present a problem to those who can't keep them any more.



GB non-native species secretariat

EU IAS Regulation - GB non-native species secretariat

The second link if you look for the green highlighted FAQ for UK stakeholders the PDF contained on that link should answer any questions or concerns you may have.


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## colinm

Apparently there is a second and third list that are being drawn up at the moment. The second list is composed mainly plants but the third list is likely to have some herps on it.

The UK government was against the inclusion of the terrapins as they are not Invasive over here. But our government had to agree with the full list as there were some species that it wanted included. It was a case of either you agree with the whole list or nothing. Not very democratic.


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## supatips

colinm said:


> Apparently there is a second and third list that are being drawn up at the moment. The second list is composed mainly plants but the third list is likely to have some herps on it.
> 
> The UK government was against the inclusion of the terrapins as they are not Invasive over here. But our government had to agree with the full list as there were some species that it wanted included. It was a case of either you agree with the whole list or nothing. Not very democratic.


Trachemys cause issues with the wildlife in our waterways. But as they don't breed I'm assuming that in the UK technically they're not invasive for that reason.

Some species of turtle was mooted for the first list but didn't appear on it. Diamondback were the one I remember. Probably be on list three then.

Any ideas on a time frame for these next lists?


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## colinm

I think that the second list has been published. If you look at the IAS group on Facebook it will tell you. There isn't anything that will affect us reptile keepers . Racoon Dogs are on there for the exotic mammals keepers.

List three is still under consultation. But apparently there are very anti exotic keeper governments in some of the EU states and these are being lobbied by the anti brigade. 

An Invasive Species isn't just one that can breed well but which has an economic impact too. Therefore Trachemys are not Invasive in Northern Europe but can be in southern Europe. As it's one rule for all of the EU these were included here.

At a recent meeting people asked about Ringneck Parakeets which could be classed as Invasive here. But apparently our government were not willing to agree to their inclusion as shooting or poisoning thousands of pretty birds would cause bad publicity.


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## supatips

I'm anticipating a list of random reptiles on list three then. I'm worried they're working towards a situation where nothing non native can be kept in captivity.

I'll have to look for the group on GB.


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## colinm

Between the IAS lists and the potential white list it looks a bit worrying. A white list being a list of species that are allowed to be kept. Belgium has introduced one for reptiles and the Netherlands are trying to do so too.


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## supatips

Wonder what will end up on the list if that's what we end up with.


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## FishForLife2001

Does anyone know what effect these lists will have on keeping invertebrates? Is it likely any species will be banned?

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## ViperLover

Thank Goodness for Brexit!

Can you see it yet, you lefty Liberal goons?


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## colinm

From memory there aren't any inverts on there apart from Apple Snails and some other aquatic mussel and crab.

I don't know what the outcome will be but these lists are being heavily pushed by the anti brigade. That's the worrying thing. I think that we could all agree that if they are truly Invasive we would support a ban.

It's interesting that in Belgium the list of species allowed does NOT include Bearded Dragons, Royal Pythons and Crested Geckos. So in theory they are not allowed to keep and breed them there.


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## supatips

colinm said:


> From memory there aren't any inverts on there apart from Apple Snails and some other aquatic mussel and crab.
> 
> I don't know what the outcome will be but these lists are being heavily pushed by the anti brigade. That's the worrying thing. I think that we could all agree that if they are truly Invasive we would support a ban.
> 
> It's interesting that in Belgium the list of species allowed does NOT include Bearded Dragons, Royal Pythons and Crested Geckos. So in theory they are not allowed to keep and breed them there.


I've got some Chelonia bred in Belgium and I'm sure they weren't on the whitelist.


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## colinm

ViperLover said:


> Thank Goodness for Brexit!
> 
> Can you see it yet, you lefty Liberal goons?


Not very helpful. All legislation passed by the EU will become law here until we leave. Then it might change but to be honest the government will be concerned with bigger issues.


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## colinm

supatips said:


> I've got some Chelonia bred in Belgium and I'm sure they weren't on the whitelist.


It's only recently been ratified. But I guess it's the usual thing , people in other countries disregard the laws whereas we British don't tend to.


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## supatips

Any ideas when it was ratified and implemented?


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## colinm

Sorry , I can't be sure but I believe that it was 2015.


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## supatips

colinm said:


> Sorry , I can't be sure but I believe that it was 2015.


These were purchased after that so they might have possibly just missed the cut off point narrowly. 

I think regardless of being in or out of the EU and no matter which party is ruling the UK the rules for exotic keeping will be changed quite a bit over the next few years.


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## colinm

That's true. I am in danger of agreeing with ViperLover, but the more left wing parties are more anti exotic animal keeping. 

It certainly will change, the problem is that we are seen by the general public as freaks. Why would you want to keep a snake when you can keep a cat ?


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## supatips

colinm said:


> That's true. I am in danger of agreeing with ViperLover, but the more left wing parties are more anti exotic animal keeping.
> 
> It certainly will change, the problem is that we are seen by the general public as freaks. Why would you want to keep a snake when you can keep a cat ?


I'm thinking along the lines of these new EU directives might be implemented while we are still within the EU and as we've already said I don't see them being rapeled as a priority. 

The antis will bend the ear of anyone that will listen and bend the facts to suit there agenda. 

This is why I don't see brexit as a solution like a lot of people seem to.


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## colinm

I disagree. The handful of people that are fighting for our hobby will have better representation with our government rather than the EU.


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## supatips

colinm said:


> I disagree. The handful of people that are fighting for our hobby will have better representation with our government rather than the EU.


Will they be able to convince them to unpick the current laws from our own when we exit the EU though? 
Hopefully they will help prevent any dranconian meausres being put in place. 
I'm forever a pessemist though.


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## wilkinss77

The ban has already claimed one important victim, not in the reptile keeping world, but that of fish keeping- from April, Cabomba caroliniana, one of the most popular aquarium plants, will be banned from sale or propagation across the EU- including the UK, as the ban was implemented pre-brexit, so it's too late to overturn it.


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## colinm

There are a few aquatic plants on the list. The Water Hyacinth for example. That dies at the first sign of frost here.


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## wilkinss77

colinm said:


> There are a few aquatic plants on the list. The Water Hyacinth for example. That dies at the first sign of frost here.


Cabomba though, is a real knee in the nads for the UK aquatic trade, as I'm told by one of my local aquarium shops that more of it is sold than any other plant- it is a staple of the trade.
What other aquatic plants are on there?


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## colinm

I am sorry, I don't know offhand. Tomorrow when I am at a computer I will post a link.


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## ViperLover

colinm said:


> Not very helpful. All legislation passed by the EU will become law here until we leave. Then it might change but to be honest the government will be concerned with bigger issues.


It's extremely helpful. It's important that these people know exactly how we feel about their desire to control the populace - using big government and the gradual removal of civil liberty.



colinm said:


> That's true. I am in danger of agreeing with ViperLover, but the more left wing parties are more anti exotic animal keeping.
> 
> It certainly will change, the problem is that we are seen by the general public as freaks. Why would you want to keep a snake when you can keep a cat ?


You make it sound like agreeing with me is some kind of sin. Whatever floats your boat. The fact is that we have a political class who want to strip us of our liberty and they started this in Brussels.

This is the exact reason why I have become disillusioned with Academics in recent months, and doubly so since the Referendum. Most of them are nothing but unadulterated pond scum, hiding behind a PhD while pushing their ideas, as their only real knowledge is the very small area they specialise in. They haven't the slightest clue about how real people work and neither do they understand why personal liberty is important, even if they don't agree with it. They need a map to cross a road!


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## ViperLover

Somebody must have rattled Stu's cage. I think he looked in the mirror..........


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## Sylvi

EU Law............ I don't think they worry about that here

https://www.donedeal.ie/reptiles-for-sale/adult-terrapin-yellow-bellied-slider/14696345

one advert of many I have seen.


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