# Dead snake



## Andy P (Oct 7, 2013)

Hi ,

I purchased a snake from someone on here. After a few days I thought something was wrong. not interested in feeding and remained under heat not moving. Contacted the seller to raise my concerns but was reassured it was normal for such snakes. As a novice I took the advice of the experienced breeder. 3 weeks after purchasing the snake it had died. 

Where do you think I stand with this - is it unreasonable to ask for money back. What is the fair way to deal with this? I am not unreasonable so want to be fair. I did raise my concerns early and followed all instructions given. I have only been keeping snakes for about 10 months but look after them well and have never had any issues what so ever. 

what do you all think I should do or ask for ? what would be reasonable ? or is it just tough luck on me?

Thanks


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## Blurboy (Feb 9, 2007)

Best thing to do is keep communicating with the person who sold you the snake and also in a calm manner. Seeing as you did all that was asked of you I for one do not think it's unreasonable to ask for your money back as it's clear something has happened. Was the snake couriered to you? If so was it a proper registered one? Or if you collected or had it dropped off then something wasn't right from the off. 
One thing is don't go start slagging them off on here as it could be a total genuine death and just one of them things. Keep things good and I'm sure it will get sorted. By all means keep the thread updated and let us know how you get on.


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## Andy P (Oct 7, 2013)

Thanks for your views Blurboy.

Totally agree I'm not wanting to get in to slagging anyone off hence why I have kept details to a minimum and no names. I just want to be treated fair but also be fair.

At the end of the day the snake in question was over £1000 so I am gutted for the money but also gutted I lost the snake as it made a great pairing for what I had planned. Now I am without money and snake :-(

I collected it myself. Without being to specific to keep it anonymous, the snake had just come out of cooling. I explained I was inexperienced and asked for guidance and followed it precisely. After only 3 days I just thought it wasn't right so that's when I raised my concerns.

We are communicating but right now no refund has been offered , what has been offered doesn't really work for me hence why I thought I would ask you guys what you all thought.

Im hoping to hear back again tonight though so fingers crossed we will sort something.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Personally in my opinion unless you were doing something really wrong, 3 weeks is a very quick time for a snake to deteriorate and die without an underlying health issue. The type of snake I can guess it to be are relatively hardy and not feeding for 3 weeks would not kill it directly. The problem you have is that nobody is going to offer any guarantees for 3 weeks after a snake has died and to be fair sitting under heat and not moving much doesn’t sound particularly unusual for this species.


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## PurpleHeyze (Aug 7, 2010)

Not really sure what to do but depending on if it is an underlying health problem you could get a post mortem done which could tell you if it had the illness when you bought it? 

Just a suggesting as not really sure what to do but hope it all works out


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## Andy P (Oct 7, 2013)

Thanks for last two posts. Yes for sure these snakes can go weeks if not months in some cases without eating. I was told a couple of days ago it had eaten the week before so not eating certainly not a problem if that was the case. Also sitting under the heat also normal but all my other snakes do move from heat to cool spot to regulate. It just seemed so inactive and unresponsive which is why I initially got concerned as well as being told it should eat.

Re the post mortem. Yes I agree it would confirm underlying issues which I am sure is the problem. I am kind of hoping we can sort something out without resorting to this though as this also incurs further expense and I feel then it would kind of become a formal dispute whereas I really want to resolve it informally and maintain a friendly atmosphere. I would love all my money back to be honest - but I cant see that happening. So I really would just like an outcome that means I do end up with either some money returned or a replacement that fits in with my current snakes or a bit of both. I don't think that is unreasonable.

Thanks again everyone.


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

Andy P said:


> Thanks for your views Blurboy.
> 
> Totally agree I'm not wanting to get in to slagging anyone off hence why I have kept details to a minimum and no names. I just want to be treated fair but also be fair.
> 
> ...





Andy P said:


> Thanks for last two posts. Yes for sure these snakes can go weeks if not months in some cases without eating. I *was told a couple of days ago it had eaten the week before *so not eating certainly not a problem if that was the case. Also sitting under the heat also normal but all my other snakes do move from heat to cool spot to regulate. It just seemed so inactive and unresponsive which is why I initially got concerned as well as being told it should eat.
> 
> Re the post mortem. Yes I agree it would confirm underlying issues which I am sure is the problem. I am kind of hoping we can sort something out without resorting to this though as this also incurs further expense and I feel then it would kind of become a formal dispute whereas I really want to resolve it informally and maintain a friendly atmosphere. I would love all my money back to be honest - but I cant see that happening. So I really would just like an outcome that means I do end up with either some money returned or a replacement that fits in with my current snakes or a bit of both. I don't think that is unreasonable.
> 
> Thanks again everyone.


The bits in bold, if true (not saying you're lying, just timeline isn't clear) highlight a potential problem....


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## Andy P (Oct 7, 2013)

Ok - I have been a little vague to try and keep it anonymous. 

Basically the advert I responded to said all eating shedding as they should etc,

the snake was advertised as "proven and ready to go now" upon speaking to the owner he said the snake was about to be paired with another snake as she had been cooled. I needed a female for a male that was looking for a female from what I had been told his behaviour indicated.

I agreed to buy it but explained that it would be the first two snakes I have put together and asked exactly what to do. He said warm her up, I asked what temp and he said 32 degrees. He said try and get a couple of feeds in her and put in the male - after a couple of weeks or so. 

I put her in a 6 foot viv with caged ceramic bulb one end on a habistat. It was at exactly 32 degrees.

I did notice her skin looked a little looser than my snakes but thought that as this snake had come from an accomplished breeder it was how it should be. I had also noticed that it did not move much at all. Not ever having seen it stretch out in the viv. After a few days - about 3 I think I tried it with a medium rat. It showed no interest at not even a flicker of the tongue. I thought that it was just as it had been cooled and assumed not been eating much as the owner did not mention it feeding last when I collected it. 

I left the rat in for the day whilst I was at work hoping I might find it gone when home but when I came back it was still there, right next to the snakes head. Therefore I took it out. A few days later I tried it again with the same response and no different behaviour from her. 

This is when I contacted the seller. He assured me snakes coming in to breeding condition often do not eat and that the snake was in good condition. He said to just put the male in with her. This is what I did - again following instructions. I have to say when the male was introduced they locked together within as day. With the female laying out with him on top as he should be. This was the first time I ever saw her stretch out or move. therefore I thought that ok she is moving now and both snakes seem to be doing what they are doing.

I did take the male out at one point when they were not together and offered food them both individually but neither were interested but didn't really think this was abnormal as the seller said they may not eat coming in to breading condition and that obviously what they had planned in my eyes. 

So I put them both back together and in 10 minutes they were locked again. Then on the 13th (Monday) I came home from work and discovered her dead. She smelt to be honest. I don't go in my snake room early before leaving for work as no lights are on so she could have been there like it for up to 16 hours from when I was last in the room the night before. I bought her on 22nd December ( meaning I had her only 22 days max)

I text owner on the Monday and had no response, called on the Tuesday and got text saying not ignoring just busy and would phone. didn't hear anything but got text on Wednesday saying would call later and trying to think of a solution. but I didn't get a call. I text Thursday saying I would really like to deal with the issue now and ideally have money back. I got text saying then he would be left with no snake and no money so couldn't.

Also said there had been no trouble with her in past and breeding snakes don't eat much. He also said that he has had females die unexpectedly after being paired over the years. ( maybe other forum users can advise if this is common) but I still did raise my concerns within a week of taking her in my defence.

He also told me then that she fed a week before I took her, this was the first it was mentioned and why I said in a previous post that I was told a couple of days ago that it fed - why it may have been confusing time line wise as mentioned in the last post. 

With all respect to the chap he admitted it a bad situation and offered me two young females. The problem is I wanted an adult for this male which is what I spent over £1000 on. I have gone back and said that what is offered doesn't really work for me as I needed an adult and already have one of what was offered as well.

I have gone back and asked if there would be an adult that would suit my snake in question available instead. 

I am waiting for a response.

I hope this explains everything fully.

Thanks


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## Stu MBM (Sep 2, 2011)

Tricky one, the fact is that sometimes animals die. It may not be either the breeder or you fault which makes it very difficult. If this happened to a snake I sold I would want an autopsy to be done to try and see what the problem was. This could have shown the reason of the death and could also highlight a disease that may be In my collection. Without knowing the cause of death though it's hard to lay blame or be morally entitled to any refund. I have had expensive snakes die too so I feel your pain but you sometimes just have to take it on the chin. I hope you can come to an agreement that suits you both. Also quarantine your animals before introducing new snakes to each other. If the deceased snake did have something it could have been passed on to the male you put in. You have my sympathy and I'm sorry for your loss.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

When you say the temperature was 'exactly 32 degrees'...what do you mean?

How where you measuring the temperature? was that the temperature of the substrate on the surface, measured with a digital thermometer with a probe or IR gun type?

Or did you measure the temperature with a dial meter or other type of thermometer stuck to the wall of the enclosure?

If you where using a dial meter, or measured the temperature anywhere other than the substrate underneath the ceramic heater - then there is a good chance that you measured the air temperature, this is a common mistake, and can be fatal

also how sure are you that the habistat is functioning properly? worth testing it, could the probe have failed ''on''?

If not, the only suggestion I have is get a post mortem done, £1000 is allot to spend on a snake, first you need to know why it died, if it died because of an error reading the temperature, then its something you have to put down to experience, but if its something which the previous owner would or could have known about prior to sale, then you have a right to a refund, any other reason is really upto the good nature of the seller tbh


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## Nicquita (Mar 14, 2009)

CloudForest said:


> When you say the temperature was 'exactly 32 degrees'...what do you mean?
> 
> How where you measuring the temperature? was that the temperature of the substrate on the surface, measured with a digital thermometer with a probe or IR gun type?
> 
> ...


I don't know if I'm off the ball here, but the OP said that his male went in with the new snake - if that was the case, wouldn't he also be reacting adversely to the temps being too hot

I'm not sure if it's just me, but if I had a snake and had just spent £1000+ on a new one with a particular breeding plan in mind, I probably wouldn't be using a dial thermometer


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

only the OP can answer those questions, best to cover all the possibilities without making assumptions, many people confuse ambient temps with 'basking' temps early on


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## Nicquita (Mar 14, 2009)

CloudForest said:


> only the OP can answer those questions, best to cover all the possibilities without making assumptions, many people confuse ambient temps with 'basking' temps early on


Yes, but the OP said that his male was in with her. If the temps were hot enough to kill the female, would that not have effected the male? I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything, I don't have snakes so it's a genuine question. But if the heat was severe enough to be fatal, I would have assumed that it would be an issue for the male, and if it were far too hot, with them thermoregulating themselves, would the female not have moved away from the heat source?


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## Andy P (Oct 7, 2013)

Hi,

Thanks Stu & Cloud forest.

Stu, you hit the nail on the head. As soon as I realised she had died the first thing I thought was omg I hope my male hasn't caught anything. As it happens the male in question is my favourite snake . Beautiful and extremely docile!. Needless to say I was disinfecting and scrubbing straight away. I actually had him out for about an hour last night just to make sure he seemed ok and he was acting as he usually does. Keeping a close eye though,

Re the temp. No I actually put the probe directly on top of the aspen under the ceramic bulb. I admit I don't posses a gun to check the temps. Only use the exo terra type with probe on wire. I thought this was fine as could actually put probe where needed.

I have 13 other vivas all set up in same way and have had no problems. Also, it's not like the snake was on her own in the viv. If the heat was a problem surely it would have affected the male too????

I think you are right about the autopsy, if I don't hear back today with some kind of compromise I have no choice to get one done. Trouble is that if it comes back with underlying issue which I'm sure it will I feel that I will want all my money back. Would rather reach a compromise than have to get funny about things. 

I keep and breed parrots and tortoises so well aware that animals can just die. However there is usually a reason. An 07 boa should not die after 3 weeks of having it surely? 

Thanks again for your input and I hope I'm explaining everything as clearly as I can.


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## Stu MBM (Sep 2, 2011)

I presumed you were talking about royals for some reason. You may be a bit late to do a reasonable autopsy and get to the real route of the cause. Boas are super complicated, especially when it comes to disease. You got to be so careful with them, when I was breeding I had three seperate rooms for different stages of quarantine for new snakes. Do that in future as it could save your collection! In a way I hope this was a 'freak' accident, at least then your other snakes are safe. Id try and speak to a vet and see if it's worth an autopsy but I think it may be a bit late. Hope you get sorted.


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## Andy P (Oct 7, 2013)

Thanks for your advice! I am taking everything on board as I love learning about these amazing creatures. Even if it is the hard way at times sometimes.

When I found the snake I did double bag her and froze her immediately and she is still in the freezer now as I wasn't sure what to do. Maybe this would still mean an autopsy is viable. I am going to speak to the vet today and see what they say about it.

Thanks


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## Hannah81 (Nov 19, 2008)

You should not freeze a snake you intend to get a post mortem on, freezing destroys cells. They should be kept in the fridge and the post mortem done within 24 hours.

Personally if I'd spent that much on a snake and thought there was something wrong with it after a few weeks I'd have take it to a vet at that point.

Snakes can and do deteriorate very quickly when there is something very wrong. It's instinct to hide any illness they have until the very last moment to guard against predators that would pick off the weakest/ill animals. Hence when they eventually do show signs of being ill, they don't usually last muhc longer after that.


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## Andy P (Oct 7, 2013)

*Thank you everyone*

I just want to say a huge thank you to everyone who commented on this post. I really appreciate all the input and was glad I asked your thoughts.

This was the first time I had done anything like this and will certainly to it again if I ever need to get opinions of any sort in the future.

Yesterday I took delivery of two replacement snakes that I had agreed on with the original seller. They valued about half the value of the original snake that sadly died.

I feel that this was a very fair outcome. We remained amicable and continued to communicate and I would like to feel that we are in a position to deal with each other in the future if the situation arises.

I also wanted to say thank you to the seller just in case he has been reading these posts as well.

Once again thank you to all RFUK users. What a great forum!


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