# Dubia dangerous reptile feeder food?



## DeathRoll (Sep 10, 2012)

I'm just wondering what people think about this:

Reptile Resources :: Nutrition Articles :: Can Feeder Insect Diets Contribute To Gout In Reptiles? - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center

It suggests Dubia are dangerous feeder insects as they have high amounts of stored uric acid?

I'm wanting to setup a Dubia colony for my Beardie and now I'm not so sure, any help would be appreciated.


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## ConnorTrussell (Apr 5, 2012)

I thought everyone knew roaches have more protein- so that means you don't have to feed as many. Truthfully I wouldn't worry about it- Allen claims a lot of things, I raised 2 beardies on 85% dubias, and they're healthy monster beardies


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## DeathRoll (Sep 10, 2012)

I enquired into why my Reptile shop didn't stock Dubia's and they linked me this so I was concerned. I figured by reading that article that if you simply don't overfeed the Dubia's certain high protein foods they shouldn't have excess Uric acid.


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## rainbow.ben (Dec 11, 2007)

A varied diet is best, but if your just feeding roaches would just offer smaller amounts.


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## imginy (Jun 14, 2009)

I have used dubia roaches for 5+ years for my adult and baby dragons and never seen gout.

Even if this article is true it says only roaches feed on high protien diet like dog food and cat food are effected which is something I would never use anyway my roaches are always feed on vegetarian diet.


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## ConnorTrussell (Apr 5, 2012)

DeathRoll said:


> I enquired into why my Reptile shop didn't stock Dubia's and they linked me this so I was concerned. I figured by reading that article that if you simply don't overfeed the Dubia's certain high protein foods they shouldn't have excess Uric acid.


Roaches are scavengers- you could feed them paper and they would still reach adult size (this probably isn't good for your animals, but it will actually keep the roaches alive, with liquid off course) but yeah, feeding an animal that can produce enough protein from vegetables and fruit high protein diets isn't great. Crickets NEED protein as they're omnivores, roaches are also omnivores (they eat anything for that matter) but have evolved so that they do not need protein in the way crickets do to grow. It's quite hard to explain, but yeah, roaches are the best feeder IMO


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

This might interest you. 

I tried doing a very simple experiment to see if dubia prefered chicken food (animal ingredient free) compared to higher protein dog biscuits. Unless they are really hungry and desperate, they definately prefer the lower protein, vegetarian food. 

see http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/feeder/968733-dubias-wont-breed-10.html

I try to give my roaches a few days of veg only food (no cereals) before they are used as feeders.


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## DeathRoll (Sep 10, 2012)

Thank you for your answers, this is really helpful  :2thumb:


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Roaches are not really any higher in protein naturally, however, if they are fed a high protein diet they will store this in the form of uric acid. That was the point Allen was trying to make. He is an extremely intelligent and well researched man, and should be listened to as regards nutrition. All he said, and he is right, is that roaches shouldnt be fed high protein diets as they have a very unique ability among insects. 

Unlike what most people think, reptiles do not need some super incredible protein diet. Any insect fed has plenty of protein...ANY insect. There is no need to give them a high protein diet for any reason. That was his point. Feed your roaches a roughly 15-18% protein diet and they will flourish and be a healthy feeder to your reptile. Feed them a higher protein diet and they will store uric acid which could, potentially, be a problem processing the extra protein for compromised reptiles.


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## Tiliqua (Dec 6, 2008)

jarich said:


> Roaches are not really any higher in protein naturally, however, if they are fed a high protein diet they will store this in the form of uric acid. That was the point Allen was trying to make. He is an extremely intelligent and well researched man, and should be listened to as regards nutrition. All he said, and he is right, is that roaches shouldnt be fed high protein diets as they have a very unique ability among insects.
> 
> Unlike what most people think, reptiles do not need some super incredible protein diet. Any insect fed has plenty of protein...ANY insect. There is no need to give them a high protein diet for any reason. That was his point. Feed your roaches a roughly 15-18% protein diet and they will flourish and be a healthy feeder to your reptile. Feed them a higher protein diet and they will store uric acid which could, potentially, be a problem processing the extra protein for compromised reptiles.


I am aware of the good work Repashy has done with captive lizards and I am very much impressed by the food supplements I have tried. However, I am a little wary when the leading designer of artificial diets starts putting out negative publicity for the leading/up and coming feeder insect...

I've been using dubia almost exclusively for over 10 years. I feed mine on dog mixer biscuits, bran, layers pellets, old breakfast cereal, some cat food, fresh fruit and veg. Never had an issue with gout or anything like that. After reading this I think I will cut down/cut out the dog mixer and cat food and see how the dubia respond... 

Mark.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

I don't use Rapashy products, or sell them. Rapashy is suggesting roaches don't need high protein diets and that there is the potential that high protein diets might cause problems for reptiles. He does not seem to be suggesting we don't use roaches. Just we need to take to care with them. It is a simple matter to adapt the information to suit how we care for our roaches without using his products !

From what I gather, you would be using dubia for skinks as part of a wide range of foods, including low protein vegetable foods. So I doubt you would ever experience problems with the diet you have been using. It _might _be different if say dubia were being used exclusively, for a lizard like an adult bearded dragon.


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## Tiliqua (Dec 6, 2008)

Dragon Farm said:


> I don't use Rapashy products, or sell them. Rapashy is suggesting roaches don't need high protein diets and that there is the potential that high protein diets might cause problems for reptiles. He does not seem to be suggesting we don't use roaches. Just we need to take to care with them. It is a simple matter to adapt the information to suit how we care for our roaches without using his products !
> 
> From what I gather, you would be using dubia for skinks as part of a wide range of foods, including low protein vegetable foods. So I doubt you would ever experience problems with the diet you have been using. It _might _be different if say dubia were being used exclusively, for a lizard like an adult bearded dragon.


Fair enough! 

Yes you may be right. I do have some species which are exclusively insectivorous too though. An adult bearded ought to be eating greens too of course.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Tiliqua said:


> I am aware of the good work Repashy has done with captive lizards and I am very much impressed by the food supplements I have tried. However, I am a little wary when the leading designer of artificial diets starts putting out negative publicity for the leading/up and coming feeder insect...
> 
> I've been using dubia almost exclusively for over 10 years. I feed mine on dog mixer biscuits, bran, layers pellets, old breakfast cereal, some cat food, fresh fruit and veg. Never had an issue with gout or anything like that. After reading this I think I will cut down/cut out the dog mixer and cat food and see how the dubia respond...
> 
> Mark.


I don't see that Allan did that anywhere in the article at all. He was merely informing others on the need for a lower protein diet for roaches due to their unique ability to store protein in the form of uric acid. And if the article led you to cutting dog and cat food from your mix then I guess he did a good job!


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## Tiliqua (Dec 6, 2008)

jarich said:


> I don't see that Allan did that anywhere in the article at all. He was merely informing others on the need for a lower protein diet for roaches due to their unique ability to store protein in the form of uric acid. And if the article led you to cutting dog and cat food from your mix then I guess he did a good job!


Agreed! I haven't read the article (didn't realise there was one, until you mentioned it), I was just responding to one of the earlier posts - I obviously got the wrong end of the stick slightly. 

Mark.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Tiliqua said:


> Agreed! I haven't read the article (didn't realise there was one, until you mentioned it), I was just responding to one of the earlier posts - I obviously got the wrong end of the stick slightly.
> 
> Mark.


Haha, its a good read, check it out.


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## ZOO CENTRE (Apr 1, 2010)

You ca read this thread:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...ing-toxic-roaches-food-wise.html#post11008577


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## imginy (Jun 14, 2009)

Just to bump up this topic with some info. 

I had someone contact me about a 6 month old dragon that had developed gout. I asked them what they had been feeding it and as it turns out they it was mainly dubia roaches bought direct from online and feed to the dragon. 

I personally have never had an issue with gout and never ever seen it in a reptile but I only feed my roaches on low protein diet and use a good variation of other live foods.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

This brings me back to what I've been saying since I signed up on this forum not so very long ago and what I've been saying for a long time: Feeder insects don't need so much protein for their everyday nutrition and bran contains more than enough protein for their needs. Yet we feed them an everyday diet of high protein sometimes as high as 40% protein which should be reserved only for gut loading 24 hours prior to using them as food for our little friends. But whether gut-loading is effective in supplying nutrients when the insect is eaten is largely a matter of conjecture and rumour and not a matter of serious study involving control groups.

But it all depends on how much of the dry food they actually eat: In my experience Dubia roaches will eat the dry food when nothing else is available. But when supplied with fruit and veg they will hardly ever touch the dry food whatever it is composed of.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Spideypidey said:


> This brings me back to what I've been saying since I signed up on this forum not so very long ago and what I've been saying for a long time: Feeder insects don't need so much protein for their everyday nutrition and bran contains more than enough protein for their needs. Yet we feed them an everyday diet of high protein sometimes as high as 40% protein which should be reserved only for gut loading 24 hours prior to using them as food for our little friends. *But whether gut-loading is effective in supplying nutrients when the insect is eaten is largely a matter of conjecture and rumour and not a matter of serious study involving control groups.*
> 
> But it all depends on how much of the dry food they actually eat: In my experience Dubia roaches will eat the dry food when nothing else is available. But when supplied with fruit and veg they will hardly ever touch the dry food whatever it is composed of.


Just because you are not aware of the information does not mean it does not exist. Once again, there is scientific literature on exactly this topic if you take the time to find it. Gut loading is effective. No, you do not need to gut load with higher protein. All insects contain more than enough protein content, regardless of gut loading. Gut loading is meant to counteract nutritional deficiencies in vitamin and mineral content.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

I couldn't agree more with Jarich, that the aim of 'gutloading' whould be to improve vitamin and mineral content NOT protein. Insects are already extremely high in protein. I try to feed my insects just fruit/veg with no cereals for a couple of days before they are used as feeders.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

jarich said:


> Just because you are not aware of the information does not mean it does not exist. Once again, there is scientific literature on exactly this topic if you take the time to find it. Gut loading is effective. No, you do not need to gut load with higher protein. All insects contain more than enough protein content, regardless of gut loading. Gut loading is meant to counteract nutritional deficiencies in vitamin and mineral content.


I am not aware of any "scientific" papers supporting gut-loading which are based on control groups and testing because as far as I can see they don't exist. But there is plenty of "unscientific" support for gut-loading which appear to originate from those who have something to sell in the form of gut-loading food. But anyway, for gut-loading to be successful the stomach of the feeder has to be full of it and if not the feeder will have absorbed the nutrients it needs and will have expelled the nutrient it doesn't need.

But basically we are in agreement: Vitamins and minerals yes. High protein, no.


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

in terms of gut loading a vet told me that the stomach size of prey items is so small that any content is irrelevant in relation to the predator - however a well fed prey item is healthy and more nutritous than a poorly fed unhealthy animal.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Spideypidey said:


> I am not aware of any "scientific" papers supporting gut-loading which are based on control groups and testing because as far as I can see they don't exist. But there is plenty of "unscientific" support for gut-loading which appear to originate from those who have something to sell in the form of gut-loading food. But anyway, for gut-loading to be successful the stomach of the feeder has to be full of it and if not the feeder will have absorbed the nutrients it needs and will have expelled the nutrient it doesn't need.
> 
> But basically we are in agreement: Vitamins and minerals yes. High protein, no.


Well, I guess that is more a reflection of where you have looked rather than a reflection of what exists. Here is a good place to start though:

Gut loading to enhance the nutrient content of insects as food for reptiles: A mathematical approach - Finke - 2003 - Zoo Biology - Wiley Online Library

From there you can use the bibliography of that article to find the research of others, like that of Hunt et al (2001), McClements et al (2003) or Trusk and Crissey (1987). 

What you will find is that gut loading is effective and that it takes at least 24-48 hours of it to be most effective. What that tells you is that this is not only because of what is physically in the gut itself, but also due to what gets absorbed into the insect's body as a direct result of the food it eats.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

I can't read the full paper because I don't have a login. But according to the abstract only there is still nothing about control groups, i.e. a group which is not gut loaded and compared to those which are gut loaded. Without control groups any conclusion is suspect because the outcome could be the result of some other reason.

But in any case the paper is concerned with the feeding of insects to rats and not to reptiles, amphibians nor arachnids. But even in the case of rats fed with the gut loaded insects there is no mention of the effect on the rats, i.e. those fed with gut loaded insects were healthier than those which were not fed gut loaded insects and healthier than those who were fed a nutritional supplement. Such studies can only be undertaken over the longer term.

But whatever, I think I'll continue the way I am: All four of the adult females I added to my little colony less than a week ago are now mothers and I estimate at least a hundred new nymphs in due course. Of those which are not yet adult I estimate that they will reach adulthood with the next moult and then I'll have to start culling them. So perhaps those who think I'm doing it all wrong with wheat bran, fruit and veg would like to tell me again because I don't know it yet.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Spideypidey said:


> I can't read the full paper because I don't have a login. But according to the abstract only there is still nothing about control groups, i.e. a group which is not gut loaded and compared to those which are gut loaded. Without control groups any conclusion is suspect because the outcome could be the result of some other reason.


Ok, but in the full article, they give the baselines for these insects not gut loaded with a fortified diet. Those other articles I mentioned also did the same. Obviously without a baseline to go from the information would be useless. Luckily for us, Mark is a thorough scientist who is well aware of the obvious. 



> But in any case the paper is concerned with the feeding of insects to rats and not to reptiles, amphibians nor arachnids. But even in the case of rats fed with the gut loaded insects there is no mention of the effect on the rats, i.e. those fed with gut loaded insects were healthier than those which were not fed gut loaded insects and healthier than those who were fed a nutritional supplement. Such studies can only be undertaken over the longer term.


You need to read a little more closely. The paper called "Gut loading to enhance the nutrient content of insects as food FOR REPTILES" is in fact not concerned with the feeding of insects to rats, but reptiles. If you read more closely you would see that the only reference to rats was the fact that he used the Nutritional Council's dietary recommendations on the minimum nutritional requirements of rats (because it is so well researched in regards to Vit A and E needs, unlike reptiles) and then adapted that to cater to the specific requirements of reptiles. You seem to be grasping at straws to make yourself look right, when instead you could just try to take the time to learn. I understand the instinct to argue, that's how many of us test our theories, but at a certain point you have to realize your premise was flawed. Thats just good science. 



> But whatever, I think I'll continue the way I am: All four of the adult females I added to my little colony less than a week ago are now mothers and I estimate at least a hundred new nymphs in due course. Of those which are not yet adult I estimate that they will reach adulthood with the next moult and then I'll have to start culling them. So perhaps those who think I'm doing it all wrong with wheat bran, fruit and veg would like to tell me again because I don't know it yet.


Again, no one in this thread said anything about you "doing it all wrong" (though wheat bran has a terrible Ca ratio, in case you were wondering). You are the one who said that gut loading was all conjecture and there was no hard science behind it. That was the only part I took issue with.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Jarich: While the title does indeed say Reptiles the abstract specifically says the insects were fed to rats. It doesn't mention anything at all about feeding the insects to reptiles. And there is still nothing about the effect of feeding the gut-loaded insects to the rats.

If you can come up with a reasonable study involving control groups I will be delighted to read it and agree with you. Until then I'll disagree till the cows come home.

But what I'm mainly concerned with is not the effect of feeding insects to any animal but the upkeep of Dubias so they stay healthy and reproduce. Getting back to the topic of this thread, Dubias don't need high protein so why feed it to them as an everyday diet? However separating some and gut-loading them prior to using them as food is another matter.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Ok, Im sorry, it was not my intention to make you feel like I backed you into a corner you had to fight from endlessly. You merely stated something that was incorrect (that there is no scientific evidence for gut loading) and I hoped to easily provide you with the evidence to help you see that wasnt true. I have provided you with four different references to research involving controlled scientific methodology on this exact subject to start you off. Three of those I was just able to find the full articles online in a few minutes, including the Finke article mentioned above. (I didnt provide the exact links because its always my hope that someone truly curious will, through the simple searching of these, find more information than just the articles I made reference to.) I dont know where you live, but odds are you either can access the other one (Trusk and Crissey, 1987) in a library somewhere close by or know someone in college that can access the full article for you online. This simple search will yield many other articles about this topic that you can also look at, because the research out there is quite extensive. Please take the time to go and read them. Then we can have an informed discussion together instead of you repeating things that arent true while I feel like those cows will never come home. :whistling2:

As for the abstract in question, the single mention of rats is not to feeding them, but the following sentence:

"Final recommendations were based on National Research Council (NRC) requirements for rats, adjustments for the energy content of the insects, and nutrient overages as appropriate." 

There is no reference to rats being fed insects at all, either in the abstract or the article in full. He is making reference to the guidelines for the dietary requirements of rats as a base by which to go off of for recommendations, which he then adapted for the specifics of insects/reptiles. 

As for the effects of feeding a gut loaded insect versus a non gut loaded insect, that should be fairly obvious. If gut loading increases the calcium, Vit A and Vit E content of the insects linearly (among others), and these insects are lacking in nutrition in that regard, then it is beneficial to the animal which will eventually eat it. The research already exists to show that these insects are lacking in these vital nutrients for reptiles, so the question is not if it is beneficial to increase them, but how to go about it. Saying that you require testing to prove that gut loading is beneficial is unnecessary, irresponsible and tantamount to animal torture since it would require feeding reptiles what we already know to be sub standard nutrition over a long period of time. 

As for the point, it is not to keep healthy and reproducing roaches, it is to produce the healthiest feeder for our animals while also having roaches that reproduce plentifully. Keeping roaches alive is easy, making them the healthiest feeder for our reptiles is the harder thing, but also not that difficult to accomplish. Unlike with crickets, there is no need to necessarily separate roaches off if some simple things are kept in mind regarding gut loading on a consistent basis. You are right in saying that they do not need a high protein diet, and I appreciate your willingness to agree on that point.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

If you use and apply the requirements of rats to the requirements of insects even if they are adjusted then that must mean that there is some genetic relationship between rats and insects. You have not provided any *scientific* evidence at all. Therefore in my opinion such scientific evidence does not exist.

I can easily write a paper saying that standing on your head for half an hour a day increases your sexual prowess. But without evidence it's just crap.

Anyway back to the topic: Protein!


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