# Leopard Gecko - Serously Ill - Not Sure Whats Wrong



## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

Firstly, He is about a year old male Leopard Gecko. I got him in late April, At the start he wasnt eating, took me about 2 weeks to get him starting, I beleive it was stress. 

Recently, The Last week he has been actin extremely strange, He hasnt eaten for about a week (I have been feeding him on crickets and mealworms, with the odd waxworms(Fed a few of them about a month ago)) He hasn't been up at night like usual, he is usually up at the window doing his window cleaning act, but nothing, caput. Recently i have found him laying upside down on his back, with his legs up, this is really worrying me, and there must be something serous wrong. And not forgetting his head twitches, he shakes his head slightly, side to side, up and down, and basicly pivits his nose/mouth into the floor to roll himself over on his back, Maybe he just wants to give up...

I took him to the vets today (No Specialist... Dont have them in my area - Scotland Fife.) And I think i knew more then him, but being such a good vets he checked the books and all that, and he beleives its Nutrional, So what he has said to do is liquidfy the mealworms and crickets together with the dust (calcium). I will be attempting this tonight, 0.5ml.

I know it's realyl difficult to understand and how to find out if something is ill over the internet, As you cant see it or have a good look yourself. Feel Free to ask for tempertrues, Humiderty, dimensions, Anything, I really appreciate your time.

Thank You, Scott.


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## Blazey (Apr 30, 2006)

hope he gets well again.


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## tombraider (May 6, 2006)

Wish i could help you out here. The only time mine pivots his head is when hes shedding and only goes as far as to turn his head and neck upside down. 

Have you checked with all the vets in your area to find a reptile vet? I didnt think there was one anywhere near me until I discovered there was one 5 minutes down the road. 

Hope someone comes along who can maybe give you a better idea of whats up. Good luck with the feed tonight, hope he takes it for you


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

Thank You both of you, All is appreciated, I'll keep you all posted. Any ideas of trying to get around of looking for reptile vets?


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

I have been searching all i can and have come up empty handed on the laying on the back thing.
Twitching is a sign of MBD so add extra calcium and d3 to try and help there.
As with our unusual hot weather lately bare in mind the possibility of overheating, especially with the window cleaning act, that could be the cause.

Id sugest simply being extra careful in every aspect, keeep the cool end cool as you can, suplement well, keep noise down to a minimum and just generally baby the porr fella as much as possible.
Also give his water bowl an extra good clean and use water that has been boiled in the kettle and then cooled to help get rid of the chlorine and stuff, otherwise you can get this stuff http://www.livefoods.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=482
which we use...theres a gecko safe variety http://www.livefoods.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=485
but dont think leo's need that one.

Good luck and hope things work out, keep us posted.
Dean


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## tombraider (May 6, 2006)

This one says exotic pets so maybe they do reptiles...

North St, Glenrothes, Fife KY7 5NA 
Tel: 01592 753231 Classification: Vets

• Medical & surgical treatments • Preventive dental care • State of the art equipment • ECG Ultrasound, own laboratory • Treatment for dogs, cats • Exotic pets, children's pets


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## thorrshamri (Jul 4, 2006)

Ok I try to give you some help.

Such odd movements may evoke a viral disease found in snakes,called "stargazer" or IBVD.There is no treatment and it is lethal,but i'm far from sure it could be this,normally it is only found in snakes.

In France we have a liquid available at a chemist ,hospital or at your local vet,this is similar to liquids used in hospital for elderly people who need to be force-fed with a pipe going to their stomach.Here it is called Reanimyl,vets use it for post-surgery feeding,or for animals in a critical state.It contains all the essential nutrients and is pre-digested so that all the protein,fat,sugars and minerals are rapidly assimilable by the body.It is also found under the name Fortol.My vet advised it to me,and I used it several times successfully with different gecko species,for an adult leo give 1-1.5 ml with a plastic syringe every day.It costs around £7 a 250 ml bottle.

These symptoms may also be due to a deficiency or to an overdose of vitamins and/or Minerals,which supplement do you use?Don't use Reptivite from Zoomed,it's all crap,far too much vitamins and phosphore,thus dangerous.Use Miner-All I if you can find it in Britain .

Last possible explanation would be some kind of nervous damage,for instance after a fall or if something heavy fell on your gecko.Unfortunately,in such a case there is nothing you can really do,nerves damages are irreversible.

Keep watching your pet closely and I hope my post will help a little.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

yeh was thinking critical care formula might be atleast easier if not better than liquidfing mealies.. still Without knowing the problem its very difficult to know what to do.


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## thorrshamri (Jul 4, 2006)

Providing the little gecko with such food can't harm and may help to recover quickly.
A possibility I did not mention is some kind of metabolic shock,for instance massive stress occurences or exposure to radically opposed temperatures (massive thermal stress).In such cases,making the gecko quiet in a stressless environment is the most adequate method.


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

The one i am at now says exactly the same thing, What i need is a specific Reptile vet. Thanks for the searching though, all is appreciated.

Ok, I have took temperture, and it said 38 degrees, So i have taken my thermostat of my snake (His temp is fine without) and swapped it over, temperture is exactly 29.6 degrees. Pictures Coming Soon.


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

thorrshamri - Thanks So Much, You have helped alot, What the vet said was to liquidfy the crickets/mealworms with duster (I have Arkvits and Nutrobal) Is That suitable. And he also said liquidfied Cat food is good too. So i might try both of these.

And The Thermal Stress could be it, The tempertures were about 10 degrees up. All is sorted now, I will give him his liquidfied crickets/mealworms tonight. He is what im using, All the information, if you want more, just ask.

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Temps - 29.4(cel)/85(fahre)

Dusts - Nutrobal (Once a Week or 2) and Arkvits (Every other day)

Dimensions - 18"x18"x18" (Wood)

Food - Standard Size Crickets (http://www.livefoods.co.uk/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=305) and Mealworms Standard (Not Giant)

Substrate- Newspaper, changed to Word Bark (dark brown stuff) for 2 days, but worried that his illness was from this (But it started before i introduced these) Well the Bark has gone and back to newspaper.

Hides-3 Minimum, Sure he could get into over little hiddy holes


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

[coughs]
hmm i did mention overheating also.
and cal and d3 etc..
liquidyin food is kinda only needed if your rep wont eat surely?
however critical care formula, i think thats what thorrsamri was mentioning has extra fat and goodness to help reps recover so not a bad idea atall.
However gettin the husbandry correct is more important as you cannot cure if the cause is still present.
Hope your leo gets better.
Dean


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

His Tail Is still fat and plump, so no liquidising or not... I don't know what to do. I honestly beleive you guys know mor about reptiles then them (apart from reptile specilists) But then again, He has seen him, you havent. I dont wan to disturb him to take a picture. ill take a picture when i feed him, if he will take it. You don't understand though, he wont eat, he wont even move, the most he does is keel over onto his back...


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## tombraider (May 6, 2006)

Is he poohing ok?


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

Last Poo I saw was about 4 days ago, that must of been about a day or 2 old. Wasn't very much, looked normal.


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## NNY (Feb 2, 2006)

Also nutrobal is not a great source of calcium as its mixed with other vitamins and minerals for the gecko. Get a cuttle fish and scrape the powder off for pure calcium..


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## rstainforth (May 9, 2006)

This is all very interesting to hear as our beardie Carli is doing exactly the same, looks like shes limp her head twitches and she keeps managing to end up on her back......We dont think the prognosis is good and neither does our vet, she is on Marbocyl via dropper and has been for a few days but i dont think its doing anything. Well if we find out whats wrong with ours tomo at the vets (again) we will post and let you know.
Hope all is ok and your leo gets better


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

isnt urs over term on gravidisty?? 
Dean


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## rstainforth (May 9, 2006)

well when we took her to the vets they said it seemed she had absorbed them already and so couldnt diagnose anything


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## thorrshamri (Jul 4, 2006)

Meltos said:


> thorrshamri - Thanks So Much, You have helped alot, What the vet said was to liquidfy the crickets/mealworms with duster (I have Arkvits and Nutrobal) Is That suitable. And he also said liquidfied Cat food is good too. So i might try both of these.
> 
> And The Thermal Stress could be it, The tempertures were about 10 degrees up. All is sorted now, I will give him his liquidfied crickets/mealworms tonight. He is what im using, All the information, if you want more, just ask.
> 
> ...


Sorry,I did not want to deny anybody else's advice. :lol: 

If this comes from a nutritional deficiency ,check something :your supplement does need to hold calcium but NO phosphore.Let me explain :the Ca/P ratio of the crickets is around 0.2.So through adding a powder with a 2:1 ratio,you make things slightly better ,but the deficiency is still huge .More,in most supplements from pet stores labelled for reptiles,there are often excess vitamins which can be really harmful.
So that's why I was quoting Miner-All,which has the ideal formula.

Also when you give liquified food,make sure it's at a few °F above room temperature ,if your gecko suffers from thermal stress,let's not worsen the thing.And I don't think that a short-term feeding with this kind of liquid food will cause fat excesses or calcium deficiencies.The main thing is to get your gecko soon healthy. :wink:


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## mutt (Jul 5, 2005)

i have to admit thorwhateveryournameis, you seriously know your shit when it comes to reptiles, its good to read your comments as they are not full of shit but straight facts


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## thorrshamri (Jul 4, 2006)

8) Thanx man.I do what I can to help.The vet problems is something I'm quite interested in,actually.


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## rstainforth (May 9, 2006)

do you have any idea whats the prob with our beardie is it the same as the leo?


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## 400runner (May 15, 2006)

I really think you should have a thremostat for both your reptiles mate. hetamats are incredibly unpredictable and without any control they can spiral way out of control. 38 degrees seems really hot to me (especially if that is a backgorund temp) . I don't think you should assume a heat mat is simply going to be at the right temp. i know i've mentioned it before bu my local shop did a test and they got a heat mat to 130 degrees f without a thermostat.


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## thorrshamri (Jul 4, 2006)

rstainforth said:


> do you have any idea whats the prob with our beardie is it the same as the leo?


Yeah I think it's similar,i had the same with a crested gecko :wink:


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

So Nutrobal is a no no, what abotu arkvits? Are these all not suitable? I feel like such a shit owner. Here's some Pictures of him, Obviously looking more active, course they would, he doesnt even move bless him...


























These pictures are rather old, the bottom one is roughly 3 weeks old, His appaerence hasnt changed at all though...


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

He is absolutely beutiful.
I think with all the multivits you just use them like once or twice a week whereas you use calcium like 5 times.
Guess it depends on the diet though and the individual.
It really is a guessing game, hopefully in time the hobby will evolve and we will have more of an idea what we are doin 
I mean i still dont really know what would happen if i put a little more dust on our beardies crix...or a little less...u know?
im not saying me and trese are careless or stupid, truth is we get very vague guidlines and the only way you know ur doin it right is when u see no ill signs...and if u do its often too late and very hard to know the exact cause.
Heres to the future.
Again, I hope he puls through.
Dean


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

With the calcium for my sand geckos I have a dish of it in with them all the time, know people who have done it with other species including leo's too. That way the reps just get calcium when they need it and can balance out their own calcium intake. There is a calcium supplement that is supposed to encourage the reps to eat that straight away but my three will all take just the normal dust.


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

He trully a handsome chap i agree. I just hope he can pull through, im a perfect example of a poor owner. And could you give me a link of "pure calcium" powder on the net so i can buy it (obviously UK) Livefoods.co.uk if possible.


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

http://www.livefoods.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=122

Is This Product suitable, and is it powder... My family and i ar elow on money, but this he is more then worth all our money, we will do our best for him 

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EDIT: Or is this more suitable;

http://www.everythingforpets.com/calpyso_cricket_dust.pet/use.id.5.item_id.4831.dept.997/


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## tombraider (May 6, 2006)

What I do as well as the normal powder on the crickets I scrape some off a cuttlefish bone and put it in a bottletop lid in the viv so he can help his self when he wants it.


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

How easy is it to obtain cuttlefish bone?


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## tombraider (May 6, 2006)

very easy. they sell it in every pet shop, its mostly used for birds to help them produce eggs i think. its only around 20p a piece.


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

Both of those are the same just different packaging :wink: I use the calypso one.

Cuttlefish you can buy from just about any pet shop usually in the birds area (gives birds calcium) for strong healthy bones :lol:


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

Is it? Im probably being stupid here, but could oyu get me a picture of what it looks like? Oh sorry, just googled it. Thats a very simple easy idea, I like it, And is this suitable. Do many others use it, i would love to hear over peoples views on it. Indeed that is very easy to use.

So Use the two Multi Vits powders once or twice and week and the cuttlefish bone every other feed (Also leave a dish of it)


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

Ok, First Thing tomorrow i will order these items, as i think they are necassary for now.

---

http://www.livefoods.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=225

http://www.livefoods.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=122

---

About Gut-loading, I have never gut loaded, just left mealworms and crickets on fruit... Could this be anything to do with his ill health?


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## tombraider (May 6, 2006)

Well I got the idea from reading other people mentioning it on here so I guess its quite ok to use. The cuttlefish I dont give with the feed though, I leave it in the viv all the time in the little bottle lid.


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

tombraider said:


> Well I got the idea from reading other people mentioning it on here so I guess its quite ok to use. The cuttlefish I dont give with the feed though, I leave it in the viv all the time in the little bottle lid.


Same here, I don't dust the crix with pure calcium just leave them to get it when they want it, they all know its there and I've seen all of them lick it up. Most of the time it just seems to be a lick as they're passing apart from when my female is gravid and then she'll just sit and lick it up over several hours.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

We will be using cuttlefish instead of just cacium when our calcium powder runs out as its just as good as far as i can gather [its calcium...]
and loads cheaper, ..altho i dont like the scraping sound id have to make to er..scrape it.

I dont use bug grub, i just feed the crix and mealies wheatabix crushed up and fresh veg.
Its very important to gut load your live food.
I reckon, fingers crossed, a few days of a better suplemented higher qaulity diet and the lil man will be back on his feet.

Does anyone know...i know leos are nocturnal and dont need uv but wouldnt a D3 supplement help too right now? such as solar drops?


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## tombraider (May 6, 2006)

I think blazey uses solar drops sometimes on don becasue he doesnt have UV.


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

Ok, Sounds all set, so if it is nutrional, i will be on top of it pronto. But i have a feeling he has nervous problems... But im going to make him live with it, if he likes it or not  Im always here for poor guy, so hes not giving up on me 

I will get the cuttlefish bone for just the bottlecaps, just to lick up, But other then that, i will use the calpyso calcium powder to dust.

Solar Drops, I have used these at college on a poor gecko too. The two males died there too, very very strange (Got put with a female and they both died eventually, it was horrible)


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

u still wana use multivits occasionally though.

I left our solardrops out of the fridge after 3 uses [once a week] last time..and today i discovered id done it again after the second use this time around...i need a fridge in the rep room lol.
cant keep wasting £8 like that, oh well..

by the way the reason i have them is that a while ago goldie was twitching [apparently] and i though it may have been a lack of d3, since then we have realised she just doesnt like the viv air freshener or my deodrant [im often topless] we have them this time round as our mercury vapour lamp isnt here yet.


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## thorrshamri (Jul 4, 2006)

Sorry to say,but solar drops are crap.

"Hypervitaminosis D. There exists some controversy on whether or not true hypervitaminosis D" actually occurs in iguanas. Some research seems to indicate that reptiles are unable to absorb vitamin D from the intestinal tract. If this is true, then it is unlikely that iguanas would develop hypervitaminosis D from excess dietary vitamin D. Nevertheless, most current literature still discusses "hypervitaminosis D" when referring to the syndrome of severe hypercalcemia that seems to be related to an incorrect diet containing excess vitamin D. While hypovitaminosis D3 often contributes to metabolic bone disease, hypervitaminosis D is also harmful. This condition usually occurs when owners oversupplement with vitamins (only a light sprinkling is needed a few times a week) or give dog or cat food to their pets (both contain excessive amounts of vitamin D, as well as excess fat and protein). Periovulatory females can show marked hypercalcemia that has no significance. Clinical signs arc nonspecific and resemble many diseases; often, only anorexia and lethargy are seen. Treatment includes slowly correcting the diet, and hospitalization to correct the high calcium level. Treatment is often unsuccessful. Prevention is once again the best course. "
from : 
http://www.dagfinnur.is/?c=webpage&id=127

Moon or Sun drops are far too much concentrated,normally a single drop would be enough for a whole month. :wink: That's just the kind of stuff pet shops sell,playing on our will to do whatever is good for your reptiles,but when you want to do too much,very often you do wrong without even being aware of it.

As for cuttlefish bone ,we use it here too,another alternative is to go in a shop for cattle and ask for CaCO3 (calcium carbonate) used to supplement milking cows.Here it's around £0.25 for 2 pounds of weight.This calcium carbonate can also be purchased at your local pharmacy/chemist shop. :wink: 

Researchers on cattle have shown that only 30 to 40% of pure calcium is absorbed through the intestine wall.So it is likely to be the same with reptiles.Everything is a matter of giving enough but not too much :I have autopsied a Uromastyx which received enormous amounts of calcium and who died because of a "kidney stone" (i dunno if it is the right word) about 1 1/2 inch in diameter.


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

Moon/Sun Drops out the window then  So reall yi just need to stick a nutrional balance and stick with it, Hopefully he will gradually get better, well its lookign better, he hasnt keeled over on his back for a good 12 hours


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

lacking scientific proof i have to again dissagree.
On the following merits.
Uvb tubes give off very small amounts of uvb, such as 10 mW/cm2 at 12 inches away, whereas natural sunlight gives between 50 and 500.

These solar drops i belive give a large amount compared to tubes, however so do mercury vapour lamps and the benefits of these are becoming more and more obvious.

I do not believe solar drops to be harmfull, true its difficult to know exactly how much uv they conatin, and true ingesting isnt the best method, however if suplementing with extra calcium to mend an ill lizard the ability to break it down and get the benefits from it have to come from somewhere.

i know itd be moon drops for aleo and they ofcourse wouldnt and shouldnt be subjected to a mercury vapour bulb or those levels of uvb but the principal still applies.

I think whilst ur leo is on the road of recovery you should use them or a powder d3 suplement, after ur gecko is better you can rethink strategy.


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## thorrshamri (Jul 4, 2006)

D&T,there is something I don't understand in your argument:you say that moon drops/D3 ARE actually UVs???They are not,UVs are a wavelength which obviously cannot be ingested,and D3 is a micronutrient.

Let me recall that provitamin D3 (a chemical precursor of vitamin D3) is a catalysor enabling blood calcium to be assimilated in the skeleton.As no natural D3 or few is found in the reptiles usual food,lots of breeders do give some to their animals.But UVB radiations are also enabling biochemical synthesis of the D3 thanks to another catalysis process.

http://www.reptilecare.com/supplements.htm

http://www.robharvey.com/reptiles/lighting.htm

"UVA wavelength increases appetite, physical activity, helps to induce reproductive behaviors and is beneficial to the psychological well-being of captive reptiles and amphibians. 

Safer than adding powdered or liquid synthetic D3 supplements, as the UVB wavelength allows all reptiles the ability to regulate their own Vitamin D3 levels by endogenous synthesis as they would in nature! Eliminates the risk of vitamin D3 overdose (highly toxic) from synthetic sources. "

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=17&cat=1796&articleid=3317

"In chronic renal disease, there will often be husbandry (low humidity, mild long-term water deprivation/chronic low grade dehydration) or nutritional factors (high protein diets, excess vitamin D3 supplementation) that may indicate the potential for renal disease"

"Acute hypercalcemia (i.e., from acute vitamin D3 overdose) can result in calcification of the kidney, and in such cases, prednisolone, calcitonin, and fluid therapy are often administered."


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## Anthony (Mar 12, 2005)

Sorry to hear about your gecko  
This dude, knows his shit 8)


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## Blazey (Apr 30, 2006)

even if solardrops are crap, keep using them anyway just in case they do help make a difference. Its worth trying out if its for the sake of getting ur gecko back to health. 

d&t, does not putting ur solardrops in ur fridge effect them? I have a bottle somewhere that i've never put in the fridge. Hope i havent made it useless!


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## Bev (Sep 7, 2005)

just thought id stick in my oar and say that with my leo's i use cuttlefish in a bowl 24/7 and dust with nutrobal once or twice a week. hope you figure out whats going on with your lil guy.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

yeh i know but the solar drops are liquid UVB, im not talking about uva, just uvb.
Leo's being nocturnal, in the wild would still recieve some amount of uvb from the sun, also in thier live foods bodies.
Hobbyists however dont often use uva'uvb giving lights in theier vivs so the pets dont get any.
As you said d3 allows blood calcium to be assimilated into the skeleton, without the d3 in any form this cannot happen.
My point was why sugest giving a leo gecko extra calcium if he isnt going to be able to do anything with it?

Dean


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

May i also add, i had previously sugested using a calcium source with added d3 but then it looked likely a cuttlefish or calcium carb was gona be used, these dont conatin added d3.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Blazey said:


> even if solardrops are crap, keep using them anyway just in case they do help make a difference. Its worth trying out if its for the sake of getting ur gecko back to health.
> 
> d&t, does not putting ur solardrops in ur fridge effect them? I have a bottle somewhere that i've never put in the fridge. Hope i havent made it useless!


well it says to keep in fridge once opened..other than that i cant comment, i decided not to throw this last bottle away but will only be using it for another dose or so till our vapour lamp arrives.
I cant see it would do too much harm, but i dont know enough about it to know for sure, so i always feel it best to follow instructions.


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## thorrshamri (Jul 4, 2006)

OK :wink: different habits,different methods:here most EM keepers use Hagen 8.0 or 5.0 UVB neon lights in their vivs,so the D3 is not really a problem.I believe though these problems are overestimated about leopard geckoes. :wink:


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

i too would use uv tubes in our nocturnal species vivs during the day [if we had any] but many ppls views seem to be "if they dont need it why use it" i consider it short sighted but dont tend to say anything


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

DEANandTRESE said:


> i too would use uv tubes in our nocturnal species vivs during the day [if we had any] but many ppls views seem to be "if they dont need it why use it" i consider it short sighted but dont tend to say anything


I have UV tubes in my sand geckos tank...they ARE nocturnal but I have seen my gravid female out basking usually early in the morning when the light first gets switched on before she retreats to her hide for the rest of the day... I have to be up early to catch any of them basking though, and if I didn't get up within the half hour of the tube turning on, I'd think they weren't using it at all!


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## Anthony (Mar 12, 2005)

I heard that UV tubes aren't neccesary and that they can damage nocturnal species eyes. I never used to have UV with my leo's


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

i would have thought that would be only if they cannot escape it though.
Also apparently excessive exposure may casue skin problems.


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

I'm with Dean, the reps will get out of the light if it is bad for them unless they have no where to hide in which case there are far bigger problems than providing UV!

My sand geckos will supposedly be active during the day, but only one of them has ever been a day-basker. I may just have the UV tube come on for an hour or so in the mourning though, not much point in having it on while they're asleep and they do get plenty of natural light in their viv.


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## Anthony (Mar 12, 2005)

Yeah, i knew they could escape it. But that is what i heard, especially if you have an albino leo, they are more prone to blindness


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

In that case they must be a lot of blind geckos in the wild :lol: 

Not too surprising about the albinos though I suppose...other albino animals have trouble with sunlight afterall.


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## Anthony (Mar 12, 2005)

It's just that the caresheets i have red in the past, say UV can damage eyes, so i thought, no point in risking it :?


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Albinos are also prone to sunburn 

Silvershark, do u believe lizards can sense the uvb?
if they can then the tube [or vapour lamp etc] being on for a short period would be ok cos they would make sure they got what they needed at that point...Personally im unsure on the matter.
Dean


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

DEANandTRESE said:


> Albinos are also prone to sunburn
> 
> Silvershark, do u believe lizards can sense the uvb?
> if they can then the tube [or vapour lamp etc] being on for a short period would be ok cos they would make sure they got what they needed at that point...Personally im unsure on the matter.
> Dean


I don't know if they can sense the UV or not, I suppose it could be a possibility. Can't they see in the UV spectrum? 

I've only ever seen Ricki really bask in the light for a maybe 10-15 minutes at the most a few days before she laid her eggs (and the mourning after she spent most of the night licking up calcium :lol: )

The two females are usually still active into the early hours of the morning, but I never see them out during the rest of the day. They both go to bed shortly after the light goes on. Ricki will sometimes come out before it goes off to wait for dinner :lol:


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## thorrshamri (Jul 4, 2006)

AnthonyY said:


> It's just that the caresheets i have red in the past, say UV can damage eyes, so i thought, no point in risking it :?


This is true for snakes,not for lizards :wink: .
I agree with Dean :all my nocturnal gecko species are under UVB neon tubes,and doing pretty well.More,it enhances their appetite and their activity .I've had no calcium deficiencies cases with more than 40 geckos and about the same number of juveniles ,on a 6 years period. :wink:


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

thorrshamri said:


> AnthonyY said:
> 
> 
> > It's just that the caresheets i have red in the past, say UV can damage eyes, so i thought, no point in risking it :?
> ...


Since you seem to know you stuff...do you think it would be okay just having the UVB light on for a couple of hours in the morning when they are still active rather than leaving it on all day? Seems to be a waste of light having it on while they're sleeping in their burrows :lol:


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## thorrshamri (Jul 4, 2006)

Well,it depends.For leos it seems possible,but use 8.0 or 10.0 neons,2.0 are too low and almost useless,and 5.0 are better for tropical species.UVB economy lamps such as the one by Arcadia is fine too.But for nocturnal arboreal species which lay on tree trunks during the day,I would suggest a 12hr daily lighting period (_Uroplatus_ species ,or Rhacodactylus chaoua are in that case,I mean Leaf-Tail Geckos,oooops sorry I forgot you shun latin names here :lol: )


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

Should have said its for my stenodactylus geckos :lol: They have a 8.0 Desert Tube in there that's on for 12 hours, but they sleep through 11 hours of that time underground :lol:


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## thorrshamri (Jul 4, 2006)

Which steno species is it?I used to keep S. sthenodactylus.Actually,light scheme is the same as for leos,I think you can try 2 or 3 hours of UVBs in the morning hours,and use a natural daylight spectrum neon tube otherwise.


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

Same species you kept, S. sthenodactlyus  

I'll try a 3 hour UVB light in the morning then, see how that goes. No room to fit another tube in the viv though


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

Coz all this is helping me.... I found him on his back this morning. should i attempt to liquidise the crickets n mealworms? He said with a duster, but im geussing he means pure calcium, thing is, i dont have pure calcium, i have arkvits and nutrobal, will this do harm if i liquidfiy with the crickets n mealieS? i dont no hwat to do!


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## Rammsoldat (Sep 18, 2005)

im only new to lizard keeping myself so this is just a sugestion but mabye you can try and get some of this...

http://www.livefoods.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=487

It says it replenishes a reps calcium levels via thier water supply so if lack of calcium is the problem it may do the trick. (sorry if its been sugested elswhere)


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## thorrshamri (Jul 4, 2006)

Rammsoldat said:


> im only new to lizard keeping myself so this is just a sugestion but mabye you can try and get some of this...
> 
> http://www.livefoods.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=487
> 
> It says it replenishes a reps calcium levels via thier water supply so if lack of calcium is the problem it may do the trick. (sorry if its been sugested elswhere)


I don't believe this will work,as far as you can't be sure about how much calcium is absorbed this way,probably a negligible amount. :wink: 

Meltos->to find pure calcium,ask for calcium carbonate (CaCo3) powder at a chemist or in a shop for cattle (unexpensive,it is used to supplement milking cows).And rather bothering you turning crickets to a liquid paste,go at your local vet and ask for a renutrition liquid as used for dogs and cats after surgery,ask for the sort which is rapidly digested and holds many nutrients.Then give 1ml a day with a plastic syringe to you geck until it recovers and feeds again on its own. :wink: Such liquids are not really expensive,around £5-7 a bottle of 250ml.


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

I have given him about 3ml's of liquidised chicken cat food. He took it al, not to easily, but it has to be done. I was also told to put him in tepid water, hes inhere now, just covering his belly. He normally hates water and runs away but hes not doing anything. Hes being all rigid and leaning in on his left side, his left front arm is being bent all the time (the correct way) so he can pivet over, while tyring to get him up from drowning himself, i lifted him up in the up rght position, he then opens his mouth and tritches (not like an aggresion, not like swinging his head about) just like slight twitched side to side.


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## thorrshamri (Jul 4, 2006)

One thing is worrying me,is the belly really hard to the touch?Does it poo normally or you have had no poos since a few days?


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

His Body is rather plump, not hard, Just his bones i think. If you look closely, you can see the shape of his ribs... not h is actually ribs but heis rib cage... I,m begining to really worry. No poo in like a week.


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## thorrshamri (Jul 4, 2006)

Ok,so maybe some kind of intestinal occlusion.What is your substrate?
Avoid bark chips and gravels.
Try some few drops of paraffine oil,it won't hurt and may help the intestine to work properly again. :wink:


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Hello 
Hope i can help just read your thread and I thought I might be able to help I've kept reps over 20 yrs and run a rescue and I've seen a lot of MBD.

With MDB the gex will be unwilling to move and the bones will be very soft so it could flip onto its back due to the fact the bones are not supporting the gex properly but this is uncommon also a very common sign is rubber jaw the jaw loots almost jelly like and they have a problem eating and the jaw is ofter undershot.

if your gex does have MBD he will need to have calcium injections and you will need to use a good pure calcium source like Calypso powder each feeding and nutrobal once a week .

Gex do not need a UV tube but you can use a 15 inch high output light like the reptisun 8.0 for a few weeks to months as this will do your gex no harm Albino's are sensitive to light for the first 6 months but normals will be fine 

if is nurologial which i think it may well be there are a few causes too high an incubating temp at the last few weeks of incubation leads to this problem also if your viv got extreamly hot this can also lead to damage 

If he was born with the problem he would show signs from the start missing judging food items falling over wobbly head and head swaying also flipping onto his back is common I have 2 here with this problem (both rescues) and they are doing fine.

try the vets check for MBD and if there are no signs i would say is defo nuroligoical do you have a pic?

Take care paula x


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

Hey, Just a little update of what has happened (if anything has happened) My dad has been giving him 2 mils of chicken cat food and pure calcium (liquidised) every night. He has been on his back atleast 3 times in the time i have been away (2 weeks).

Since I came back, I put the light on again, And he has been turning on his back more often, Should i just leave the light of completly.

Well he hasnt got any worse or better. He is not moving at all... Im sure neurologial. His head twitches, Going onto his side (Half way to his back), Rolling over on his back and his head tilting. If You go on this website, it sounds very similair...http://www.drgecko.com/neurology.htm

If i can do anything, I want to, There are NO reptile specialists in this area.


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## Neonius (Jul 23, 2006)

i'm gonna give a few guesses as whats wrong

calcium deficience 

i think he twitches coz he's lacking calcium so u need to supplement his food quickly

another due to the rolling on back which i'm not sure of

shedding seems a simple answer, possibly trying to get his skin off but is struggling. dunno if this works for leos but it does for my bd. get a spray (like an empty flash spray u know the sort) and mist him in relatively cold water. for bds this helps raise the skin if they seem to be struggling shedding

might also explain why he isn't eating (he's irritated)

also, im curious what substrate do you use? if you play sand then your in trouble. impaction may be happenning to ur gecko and they stop eating bcoz the sand is clogging up their bowels. its very hard to help them but not impossible. if u do use play sand put her in a warm bath with basically 1.5-2 cm of warm (not hot) water and stay with him for 10mins or so. this works for bds when they have compaction and helps them crap and hopefully get some sand out of their system. also offer him salads as animals with compaction tend to eat softer things to try and flush out their system

any1 correct me if i'm wrong, i'm basically making educated guesses so if theirs anything i've said that u know you shouldn't do to a le then state otherwise

soz for long post, hope it helps


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Hi ya 

Nurolocial will produce those symptoms and the falling on to his back is sadly a key sign my rescue one's do the same all the time. The good new is he can live a full life but will need you to care for him teach him to feed etc.

There could be another reason reptiles do have strokes like us and this can cause sim probs but can somtimes get better over time

If its MBD he may also have the following relutancy to move a flat looking body curving of the front legs undershot botto jaw  if he has any of these he wil not get better on powder calcium alone ask your vet to order Zocal its pure calcium and d3 in a liquid for the dosage is 1ml to every 100g he will need to under a uv for a least 3 hours per eve and he will also need a multivit.

good luck and take care paula


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## purpleiget (Aug 8, 2006)

*ill gecko*

heres the website for my local vets eventhough i'm in manchester they'll be more than greatfull to give you advice on what to so with him they are a vets which specialie in reptils and have done wonders for my geckos and iguana in the past www.penninevets.co.uk email them n they get back to you 
hope the little dude is ok


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

UPDATE:

Ok, Well Hopefully. Shanna has helped me tones, and so has everybody else on this forum aswell, dont get me wrong. Im sure the little man wouldnt be here if it wasnt for all you.

Shanna beleives he is infected with parasites or bacteria. I had him on bark chips (Which house bacteria and parasites well) for a couple of days, This could be what is up with him. Fingers crossed, He will eiether have ring worm or pin worms. Shanna told me to take him to the vets ASAP and ask for a fecal, hopefully they will show up. I really hope this will turn things upright again 

Wish Me Luck For Monday, Ill let you know what happens.

P.s. This is what he looks like lately, Still gorgous as ever, just not moving at all...


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## leila (Jul 26, 2006)

Hope everything goes well!


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## Nat (Jan 26, 2005)

Aaaaaaawwwww gdluck getting the lil guy sorted xx


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

Im Afraid Spirit Passed away over the night, Im so upset. I woke up this morning, as i usualy do, go and check on him, give him a stroke on his head, I done all this not realising he was actually gone. His jaw will not open and his tail just flops, and his throat doesn't move.

Im so upset, But thank you for all your time and effort trying to help the little fella. Hopefully its better for himin no pain now.

RIP Spirit


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## nicky (Jul 13, 2005)

i'm sorry to hear this.......for future referance we do have a great rep vets up here in scotland The Edinburgh college for vets has a fabulous rep dept...i have a gecko who was very sick at beginning of this year, she stopped eating,looked bloated but i knew it was'nt impaction as she was soft, took her to vets and the first thing they did was x-ray this showed no impaction or eggs so not egg bound either, she then had a more expensive scan this showed growths on her ovaries like cysts so they said she needed an operation to remove ovaries, this was done and with the stress of it all she dropped her tail at vets, after she refused to eat and i seringe feed her for nearly a month to keep her going but now a few months later shes right a rein and has regrown her tail...the costs amounted to nearly £500.00 pound but it's worth it to see my little immy happy again....if you decide on another reading back i notice theres a definate lack of calcium in diet you mention, the multi vit like nutrobal or gecko powder should be given say 3 times weekly and a pure calcium powder rest of week cuttle shell is great but apparently not as strong as the pure powders which you can get from any chemist or rep shop brand name eg calypso.....i wish you all the best you sound like you did all you could, don't let this put you off, we are all here to help....


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## leila (Jul 26, 2006)

I am sorry to hear that.


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

Thank you for all your support. And Nicky, Thank you. I beleived had something to do with putting him on bark chips for as long as 2 days to make him as ill as this. It's my fault at the end of the day, And don't say don't be hard on myself, but I shouldof thought about my actions. 

I have just buried him.


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## cliffy (Aug 10, 2006)

sorry to hear mate


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your loss.

Two days on a substrate shouldnt have caused many problems unless he was already infected, or the substrate was used.

Just remember, not every problem a leo can suffer from is induced by humans. Yes, sometimes through lack of knowledge we do something not quite right, have the wrong temp, maybe dont give the right diet, BUT a leopard is a live animal, and as such can develop problems totally independent from us.

Just like a human can get problems, so they can also. Look at niccys post above, growth on overaies ! thats not down to husbandary issues. Sometimes its just bad luck. Humans have Hospitals and doctors, but if they get it wrong, then death often is the result.

You have asked all the right questions, taken advice, acted on suggestions, took him to a vet.. everything.

Only bad thing (and not your fault) is that the first vet you went to was not suitable for reps, even if they gave that impression

Tony


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