# Can someone please explain P. Subfuscas? LL and HL



## Paul_MTS (Mar 23, 2008)

I have a female Lowland subfusca from what I have been told-










Can someone please explain what the highland and lowland forms are about?

Does it matter what male I find for her or does it HAVE to be a lowland?

Which are considered more desirable?

Is there a question of 'cross breeding' or dirtying the youngsters if you breed a high to a low?

Thanks very much.


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## Blurboy (Feb 9, 2007)

I've PM'ed you a link to some info and hope it's useful to you. Nice looking spider you have there too :2thumb:


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

now this enters into a huge discussion by those who support the idea and those that dont. So, here's my thoughts on it.
P. subfusca are found around the elevated city of Kandy, its surrounded by lush forest, as much of Sri Lanka is. This is considered the lowland variety but some people also refer to this as the highland variety, strange coz its less than 500m above sea level.
The Highland form is much higher up from Nuwara Eliya and above (<2,000m above sea level to >4,000m). The Highland species is supposed to be smaller and darker.

I personally don't see these as different species, merely locational differences and the size difference could be explained by the lower temperatures and reduced food availability. What makes the difference IMO is the price, so if you want to pay more for your subfusca go for Highland, if you want to pay less go for Lowland.

I believe people are working on producing a paper to support the highland argument, I think this will make an interesting read.


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

Poxicator said:


> I personally don't see these as different species, merely locational differences and the size difference could be explained by the lower temperatures and reduced food availability.
> 
> I believe people are working on producing a paper to support the highland argument, I think this will make an interesting read.


But that size and colour difference wouldn't hold true for CB specimens Pete, which after all is what most subfusca in the hobby are. My subfusca female is supposedly a highland and looks quite different to the OP's. It gets plenty of food and has moulted twice in my care but hasn't really grown, so I guess it's adult at about 5" legspan.It came from Asian arboreals originally. 










My view is we should keep them separate, whether they be colour forms or actually a different species, until more is known.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

garlicpickle said:


> But that size and colour difference wouldn't hold true for CB specimens Pete, which after all is what most subfusca in the hobby are.


I believe it would tbh. Those taken from Highland suggest differences as explained but that doesnt make it a different species. Its something that has occurred over time. Think of A. versicolor, one of the only Avics to be properly ID'd and yet there's 2 different forms. Whilst colouration and size might give us indications its not considered an accurate taxonomical factor.



> My view is we should keep them separate, whether they be colour forms or actually a different species, until more is known.


Thats what I should have added, agreed.


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## Paul_MTS (Mar 23, 2008)

I would be keen to breed pure colour forms if this is the case.

My confusion came when viewing Micheal Scheller's list...

Poecilotheria sp.lowland ("bara") 1.skin each 18.-
Poecilotheria subfusca 1.skin each 15.- / 5 pcs.70.-
Poecilotheria subfusca 3.skin each 22.-

It confused me that he had not listed the lowland as subfusca and didn't have a clue what the bara bit is about.

Is the top one what I should be buying or is that something completely different?


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Like I say Paul, there's lots of opinions out there, the Germans and Polish seem to support the idea of P. bara. This was the name given by Chamberlin in 1917 but Pocock had previously described it as P. subfusca in 1895. The name P. bara continued until Peter Kirk presented a paper to return it to its former name in 1996. This was confirmed later by Schmidt in 2003. Until another paper is produced to support the return to P. bara it should be referred to as P. subfusca. I've spoken to Peter about this, he's very interested in any new paper produced but he's doubtful of any new information to support P. bara as a separate species.

You could contact Peter Kirk or Andrew Smith about this subject to get their more detailed thoughts on it, and I believe there's some papers on this species available to members of BTS.

Worth a read:
STUDY OF THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE GENUS POECILOTHERIA OF THE FAMILY THERAPHOSIDAE IN SRI LANKA
V. A. M. P. K. Samarawckrama1, M. D. B. G. Janananda1, K. B. Ranawana1, and Andrew Smith


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## Paul_MTS (Mar 23, 2008)

Thankyou very much for the detailed input.

For the time being I'll go for ze germans bara and lowlands.


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

Paul_MTS said:


> For the time being I'll go for ze germans bara and lowlands.


Did you mean bara and highland? As Pete has said, currently P. bara is synonymised with P. subfusca but when it comes to breeding it'll be best to keep the two seperate. Until more work is published reinstating P. bara (if it does) then your probably best labelling it as P. subfusca 'Lowland'. I'm always uncomfortable using names that aren't currently considered valid. Making sure the two aren't crossbred is the main thing though.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Agreed, as Offspring sang "you gotta keep 'em separated".

Paul, BTS will be at SEAS and considering Peter Kirk lives not too far away I wouldn't be surprised if he's on the table, perhaps Andrew Smith too. This would be an excellent opportunity to ask them their thoughts and you could take your P. subfusca along for their opinions.


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

Poxicator said:


> Agreed, as Offspring sang "you gotta keep 'em separated".


Tune!!!


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## Harbinger (Dec 20, 2008)

City of Kandy?
I thought a city made of that existed on in dreams :lol2:


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## Michael Scheller (Dec 9, 2010)

Paul_MTS said:


> My confusion came when viewing Micheal Scheller's list...
> 
> Poecilotheria sp.lowland ("bara") 1.skin each 18.-
> Poecilotheria subfusca 1.skin each 15.- / 5 pcs.70.-
> ...


Only as small info...
The name "P.bara" was used in Germany first from Thomas Märklin and Thorsten Kroes. They told before longer time that the P.sp.lowland or P.subfusca "lowland" should re-described soon as "P.bara".
That´s more than 2 years agoo...now they changed back to the name P.spec.lowland:
Poecilotheria


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## Paul_MTS (Mar 23, 2008)

Craig Mackay said:


> Did you mean bara and highland? As Pete has said, currently P. bara is synonymised with P. subfusca but when it comes to breeding it'll be best to keep the two seperate. Until more work is published reinstating P. bara (if it does) then your probably best labelling it as P. subfusca 'Lowland'. I'm always uncomfortable using names that aren't currently considered valid. Making sure the two aren't crossbred is the main thing though.


I think your confused here?

Sp. Bara = Subfusca Lowland

Thanks for your PM Michael it was most helpful and will hopefully put an order in with you for a sling or 2.

Thanks for everyones help, I'm hoping to go to that show, so may end up having a natter, I'm fairly sure I'll get lost in the conversation though being quite new to pokies.


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

Paul_MTS said:


> I think your confused here?
> Sp. Bara = Subfusca Lowland


Nope, not confused. P. subfusca 'lowland' is what some people call P. bara. But until a paper is released reinstating P. bara as a valid species we shouldn't really be using it.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Michael Scheller said:


> Only as small info...
> The name "P.bara" was used in Germany first from Thomas Märklin and Thorsten Kroes. They told before longer time that the P.sp.lowland or P.subfusca "lowland" should re-described soon as "P.bara".
> That´s more than 2 years agoo...now they changed back to the name P.spec.lowland:
> Poecilotheria


Interesting, so they've decided not to publish? but still acknowledge the difference. I wish I'd continued with my German lessons, I'd loved to have read the likes of the article below and the Poecilotheria book. Ive heard possibility of a translation, do you know whether this is still planned?

Krehenwinkel, H., Märklin, T., & T. Kroes. 2007.
Ornamentvogelspinne: die Gattung Poecilotheria — Biologie, Pflege, Zucht, Erkrankungen.
Herpeton Verlag, Offenbach.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Michael Scheller said:


> Only as small info...
> The name "P.bara" was used in Germany first from Thomas Märklin and Thorsten Kroes. They told before longer time that the P.sp.lowland or P.subfusca "lowland" should re-described soon as "P.bara".
> That´s more than 2 years agoo...now they changed back to the name P.spec.lowland:
> Poecilotheria


Fantastic to see you posting in this section.


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## Paul_MTS (Mar 23, 2008)

Craig Mackay said:


> Nope, not confused. P. subfusca 'lowland' is what some people call P. bara. But until a paper is released reinstating P. bara as a valid species we shouldn't really be using it.


Exactly, Subfusca lowland is the same as saying P. Sp. "bara". Where as in my original quote of your reply you say bara is equal to highland.


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## Danhalen (Jun 6, 2008)

Paul_MTS said:


> Exactly, Subfusca lowland is the same as saying P. Sp. "bara". Where as in my original quote of your reply you say bara is equal to highland.


To be honest though, calling something P. Sp. "bara" isn't really any different from saying P. Sp. "fishcake" - It's neither a generally accepted term or the result of an official description. It's just a name a few folk decided to stick with for some reason and it really doesn't mean anything.


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

Danhalen said:


> To be honest though, calling something P. Sp. "bara" isn't really any different from saying P. Sp. "fishcake" - It's neither a generally accepted term or the result of an official description. It's just a name a few folk decided to stick with for some reason and it really doesn't mean anything.


Poxicator already explained what it means?


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## Danhalen (Jun 6, 2008)

jaykickboxer said:


> Poxicator already explained what it means?


So I'm not allowed to voice my my opinion on the subject?


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

Danhalen said:


> So I'm not allowed to voice my my opinion on the subject?[/Q
> 
> Im not saying that just saying it means nothing simply stating it does I dont mind what there called just stating the name was given for a reason not just random


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

Paul_MTS said:


> Where as in my original quote of your reply you say bara is equal to highland.


No I didn't


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

:war:


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## Michael Scheller (Dec 9, 2010)

Poxicator said:


> Interesting, so they've decided not to publish? but still acknowledge the difference. I wish I'd continued with my German lessons, I'd loved to have read the likes of the article below and the Poecilotheria book. Ive heard possibility of a translation, do you know whether this is still planned?
> 
> Krehenwinkel, H., Märklin, T., & T. Kroes. 2007.
> Ornamentvogelspinne: die Gattung Poecilotheria — Biologie, Pflege, Zucht, Erkrankungen.
> Herpeton Verlag, Offenbach.


Hi Pete,
i think they dont work by herself at a descprition. 
On the last show in Stuttgart (KWH) Henrik Krehenwinkel did make a very interesting lecture about the Genus Poecilotheria.
If i remember well, Henrik did say, that there are no taxonomic differences between P.subfusca ("Highland") and P.sp.lowland, but as well a genetic diffference.

Btw...the book is imo fantastic, but i dont know if there will come a version in english.

Cheers, Michael


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## Paul_MTS (Mar 23, 2008)

Craig Mackay said:


> *Did you mean bara and highland? *As Pete has said, currently P. bara is synonymised with P. subfusca but when it comes to breeding it'll be best to keep the two seperate. Until more work is published reinstating P. bara (if it does) then your probably best labelling it as P. subfusca 'Lowland'. I'm always uncomfortable using names that aren't currently considered valid. Making sure the two aren't crossbred is the main thing though.


Yes you did....

Bara is the same as saying lowland.

Above you are suggesting bara is the same as highland.

I'm bored of this panto though.



Thankyou Michael and Poxi for your indepth input which is way beyond my Poki knowledge at the minute:notworthy:


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

Paul_MTS said:


> Yes you did....


Again, no I didn't



Paul_MTS said:


> Bara is the same as saying lowland.


Yes (but not really/officially)



Paul_MTS said:


> Above you are suggesting bara is the same as highland.


No, quite the opposite.

Well it seems you have misunderstood me.
When you wrote this:


Paul_MTS said:


> For the time being I'll go for ze germans bara and lowlands.


It suggested to me that you were planning on referring to one species as bara and the other as lowland. That is why I asked if you meant bara and highland. It was a reasonable assumption to make because I can't see why you would call one species by two names when one will suffice.


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## Paul_MTS (Mar 23, 2008)

germans call them bara, english/US call them lowlands..... simples!

Well I've preordered 2 lowland/bara's from Michael in hope 1 will grow up to be a lad.


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