# Royal python RI



## lukeyb (Sep 30, 2012)

Hi
So I recently purchased a snake , 14 days later it was showing signs of RI and this was confirmed by the vet. 2 days later it went back to the person I bought it from. 14 days later one of my other snakes started showing signs and has been put on baytril (orally) by the vet. I moved him to my bedroom away from the rest of my collection. 10 days later another of my royals started showing signs, I have been nebulising him once a day everyday for 7 days and also moved him to the bedroom. Now 10 days later since he started showing signs I now have a 3rd snake that has symptoms. 
So my questions are;
1. How do I stop this spreading through the rest of my collection? I now have 3 snakes with this. I have another 17 royals.
2. How long roughly does it normally take for the treatment to work? My original royal has now been on baytril for 15 days and doesn't really look any better (but not worse). I will be going back to the vets this week for a swab.
Thanks


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

You don't mention any details on how you are housing the royals, and what the temps are, so we can rule out environmental issue as the cause. Isolation is the best policy to prevent it spreading, especially until the vet has diagnosed if this is a bacterial infection or something else. Sterile tubs, paper substrate should work.

The only time I had a really bad case of an RI was with my 8'+ boa. I hade great success administering Ceftazidine (Fortum) via intramuscular injections every three days. The course was 8 shots in total, but he showed a big improvement after just 4. It may be worth asking the vets opinion on using this rather then baytril.

I presume you didn't quarantine the new snake on its arrival ? - Its always best to keep new additions separate from your main collection for a few months just in case it's carrying something. But then hindsight is a wonderful thing

Good luck


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## lukeyb (Sep 30, 2012)

Malc said:


> You don't mention any details on how you are housing the royals, and what the temps are, so we can rule out environmental issue as the cause. Isolation is the best policy to prevent it spreading, especially until the vet has diagnosed if this is a bacterial infection or something else. Sterile tubs, paper substrate should work.
> 
> The only time I had a really bad case of an RI was with my 8'+ boa. I hade great success administering Ceftazidine (Fortum) via intramuscular injections every three days. The course was 8 shots in total, but he showed a big improvement after just 4. It may be worth asking the vets opinion on using this rather then baytril.
> 
> ...


Hi
They are kept in RUB's on paper towel and heatmats. Hot end 88-90. It has now spread from 1 rack to another. No, I didn't QT the snake. Never had any issues in 12 years, but you live and learn. I can just about stomach 3 of my snakes having it, but I really want it to stop spreading.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

How warm do you keep the room that the rubs are in ? - Ideally, being a tropical species Royals the ambient air temperature needs to be around 26c - 28c with the warm side 32-33c. In a rack system the room where the snakes are housed needs to be warm enough. I've had to swap over from CHEs to mats in all but one viv due to the energy prices, and the over night temps drop to 21c but we haven't yet entered the depths of winter, so I will be keeping an eye on the snakes for any signs of RI developing.

If I were in your position I would isolate the three affected snakes to another room and up the temperature a degree or two, then sterilise the rack and rubs of the remaining snakes.

Good luck and keep us posted


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## lukeyb (Sep 30, 2012)

Malc said:


> How warm do you keep the room that the rubs are in ? - Ideally, being a tropical species Royals the ambient air temperature needs to be around 26c - 28c with the warm side 32-33c. In a rack system the room where the snakes are housed needs to be warm enough. I've had to swap over from CHEs to mats in all but one viv due to the energy prices, and the over night temps drop to 21c but we haven't yet entered the depths of winter, so I will be keeping an eye on the snakes for any signs of RI developing.
> 
> If I were in your position I would isolate the three affected snakes to another room and up the temperature a degree or two, then sterilise the rack and rubs of the remaining snakes.
> 
> Good luck and keep us posted


Room is kept at 26-27c


Malc said:


> How warm do you keep the room that the rubs are in ? - Ideally, being a tropical species Royals the ambient air temperature needs to be around 26c - 28c with the warm side 32-33c. In a rack system the room where the snakes are housed needs to be warm enough. I've had to swap over from CHEs to mats in all but one viv due to the energy prices, and the over night temps drop to 21c but we haven't yet entered the depths of winter, so I will be keeping an eye on the snakes for any signs of RI developing.
> 
> If I were in your position I would isolate the three affected snakes to another room and up the temperature a degree or two, then sterilise the rack and rubs of the remaining snakes.
> 
> Good luck and keep us posted


Room is kept at 26-27c


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## Malum Argenteum (5 mo ago)

With that rapid of a spread, I'd personally test all symptomatic animals for nidovirus and paramyxovirus. I'd also keep an open line with the person you sent the first snake back to, to share information as things progress. If they learn anything about their snake's condition, that might help you, and hopefully they want to know what you sent back to them. They might also have some info about the condition of the rest of their collection (which may be asymptomatic; snake viruses are good at hiding).

In addition to the measures already suggested, I would treat every snake as potentially infected, so full disinfection before transfer of decor or any other object to another enclosure, hand sanitizer (at least) between caring for each snake, no "musical food", and no recreational contact with any animals. Care for the QTed snakes last and at the end of each day.


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## lukeyb (Sep 30, 2012)

Just gone to feed and found another showing syp


Malum Argenteum said:


> With that rapid of a spread, I'd personally test all symptomatic animals for nidovirus and paramyxovirus. I'd also keep an open line with the person you sent the first snake back to, to share information as things progress. If they learn anything about their snake's condition, that might help you, and hopefully they want to know what you sent back to them. They might also have some info about the condition of the rest of their collection (which may be asymptomatic; snake viruses are good at hiding).
> 
> In addition to the measures already suggested, I would treat every snake as potentially infected, so full disinfection before transfer of decor or any other object to another enclosure, hand sanitizer (at least) between caring for each snake, no "musical food", and no recreational contact with any animals. Care for the QTed snakes last and at the end of each day.


Just gone to feed and now there is another one starting with symptoms 😔☹


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## Malum Argenteum (5 mo ago)

lukeyb said:


> Just gone to feed and found another showing syp
> 
> Just gone to feed and now there is another one starting with symptoms 😔☹


Boy, that sucks. Really sounds like a virus. Best to get on testing them ASAP and hope for the best.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

lukeyb said:


> Just gone to feed and found another showing syp
> 
> Just gone to feed and now there is another one starting with symptoms 😔☹


Oh man that's not good... The rate they are falling to this suggest a virus rather than one developing an RI in the same way we get a cold. I would look at having them tested for nidovirus - Google came up with this test centre but I'm sure there may be others. You should also advise the seller of the snake you believe is the cause as it could wipe out both your collection and theirs. Also if they are still selling snakes that are affected then there is chance others could well be in the same boat as you.

With 18 snakes at risk here time could be of the essence. Have PCR test done on at least one of the snakes, if it proves positive then you can bet that the others have the same. If it does prove to be nidovirus there doesn't seem to be any positive outcome, with the snakes either developing full blown pneumonia or having to be euthanised. Quarantine is important, so isolate those that currently don't show symptoms away from the others, ideally in a different part of the house. 

Hopefully the result will be negative and it's just coincidental that two or more snakes have RI's at the same time, but if you take the precautions and work on the premise of a worst case scenario then at least you are prepared.

Good luck


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## Malum Argenteum (5 mo ago)

Since false negative rates are quite high, I'd recommend testing all symptomatic animals. If you test one, and get a false negative, that will ensure that you'll be barking up the wrong tree. A couple hundred bucks one way or the other isn't likely much relative to the cost of the collection at risk. If it is nido, that's a collection ender and knowing it sooner rather than later will be critical.


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## lukeyb (Sep 30, 2012)

Malc said:


> Oh man that's not good... The rate they are falling to this suggest a virus rather than one developing an RI in the same way we get a cold. I would look at having them tested for nidovirus - Google came up with this test centre but I'm sure there may be others. You should also advise the seller of the snake you believe is the cause as it could wipe out both your collection and theirs. Also if they are still selling snakes that are affected then there is chance others could well be in the same boat as you.
> 
> With 18 snakes at risk here time could be of the essence. Have PCR test done on at least one of the snakes, if it proves positive then you can bet that the others have the same. If it does prove to be nidovirus there doesn't seem to be any positive outcome, with the snakes either developing full blown pneumonia or having to be euthanised. Quarantine is important, so isolate those that currently don't show symptoms away from the others, ideally in a different part of the house.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I'm booked in at the vets on Wednesday for swab. With 4 in total now I can't help but just feel negative. It seems the incubation period is roughly 7-10 days.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

lukeyb said:


> Thanks, I'm booked in at the vets on Wednesday for swab. With 4 in total now I can't help but just feel negative. It seems the incubation period is roughly 7-10 days.


Good luck... keep us posted


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## Elly66 (Feb 27, 2021)

Oh no, what an awful thing to happen. 
As the one on antibiotics doesn't seem to be improving and it's rate of spread, I agree with the others - viral. 
Hope you get some answers fast and can get on top of the spread x


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## Swindinian (May 4, 2020)

You might be able to submit multiples for one test, to keep costs slightly lower (check with the vet).
I screened a selection of my rainbow boas for Arenaviru.
I used Laboklin who send the samples to Germany. Got the vet to do the swabbing, and I sent off the samples.
Best of luck


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

lukeyb said:


> Thanks, I'm booked in at the vets on Wednesday for swab. With 4 in total now I can't help but just feel negative. It seems the incubation period is roughly 7-10 days.


Any update? - what was the vets initial diagnosis ?


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## lukeyb (Sep 30, 2012)

Vets says doesn't think its nidovirus as not showing any of the signs or symptoms. Says its bacterial causing RI, he spoke to the woman who works at the lab in Germany and she said the best thing to do is F10 nebuliser every 12hr for minimum 2 weeks and keep on top of hygiene should start to clear up.


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## Malum Argenteum (5 mo ago)

The vet didn't test for virus?


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## lukeyb (Sep 30, 2012)

Malum Argenteum said:


> The vet didn't test for virus?


No didn't test.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

Do you have mites in your collection? Mites can transmit infections between animals.


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## Malum Argenteum (5 mo ago)

lukeyb said:


> No didn't test.


Had you informed the vet about the other symptomatic animals and the rate of spread? If not, it would be prudent to do so. If you did and the vet didn't test for virus, then a new vet is in order.


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## lukeyb (Sep 30, 2012)

Malum Argenteum said:


> Had you informed the vet about the other symptomatic animals and the rate of spread? If not, it would be prudent to do so. If you did and the vet didn't test for virus, then a new vet is in order.


Yes the vet is aware


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## lukeyb (Sep 30, 2012)

LiasisUK said:


> Do you have mites in your collection? Mites can transmit infections between animals.


Nope, no mites


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Well firstly thanks for the update, and for getting back to others with their follow up questions. Its very strange that a basic RI could effect so many snakes in quick succession, but if the vet who's hands on with the snake feels there is no need to swab and test for the virus, even after consulting with the testing lab, then who are we to question their ethics. Personally I would have taken the worst effected snake along and insisted a test was done as a belt and braces approach and have it confirmed negative. But again, the vet must be confident as their reputation is on the line, and if it later turned out to be the case that the snake died as a result of the virus they would have no leg to stand on when you dropped a negligence claim on their desk.

With no mites to spread the infection, could it be husbandry practices. I presume you have always washed you hands between changing water bowls, and disinfect the bowels regularly? You've stated they are in a rack with paper substrate, so that could work for and against you, especially if the bacteria become airborne, as vivs tend to be less exposed.

Anyway, keep us updated, and hope that things improve for you soon


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## lukeyb (Sep 30, 2012)

Malc said:


> Well firstly thanks for the update, and for getting back to others with their follow up questions. Its very strange that a basic RI could effect so many snakes in quick succession, but if the vet who's hands on with the snake feels there is no need to swab and test for the virus, even after consulting with the testing lab, then who are we to question their ethics. Personally I would have taken the worst effected snake along and insisted a test was done as a belt and braces approach and have it confirmed negative. But again, the vet must be confident as their reputation is on the line, and if it later turned out to be the case that the snake died as a result of the virus they would have no leg to stand on when you dropped a negligence claim on their desk.
> 
> With no mites to spread the infection, could it be husbandry practices. I presume you have always washed you hands between changing water bowls, and disinfect the bowels regularly? You've stated they are in a rack with paper substrate, so that could work for and against you, especially if the bacteria become airborne, as vivs tend to be less exposed.
> 
> Anyway, keep us updated, and hope that things improve for you soon


Hi, thanks. have known the vet for 20 years and actually did work experience with him when I was at school. He use to keep and breed royals himself and had the unfortunate experience of dealing with RI within his own collection. The lady at the lab also breeds and keeps retics so is hands on with snakes. I have now moved to using disposal gloves in between handling each snake and disinfecting the effected snakes tubs with F10 twice daily. I have always kept my royals the same way for 12 years. The only thing that's changed is that I moved house 6 months ago. And if its down to husbandry, then it's a big coincidence that this all started 2 weeks after the arrival of a new snake, and that the new snake was the first to have it. Then 2 weeks later the first one in my collection started with it.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

lukeyb said:


> Hi, thanks. have known the vet for 20 years and actually did work experience with him when I was at school. He use to keep and breed royals himself and had the unfortunate experience of dealing with RI within his own collection. The lady at the lab also breeds and keeps retics so is hands on with snakes. I have now moved to using disposal gloves in between handling each snake and disinfecting the effected snakes tubs with F10 twice daily. I have always kept my royals the same way for 12 years. The only thing that's changed is that I moved house 6 months ago. And if its down to husbandry, then it's a big coincidence that this all started 2 weeks after the arrival of a new snake, and that the new snake was the first to have it. Then 2 weeks later the first one in my collection started with it.


By the sounds of you couldn't have better veterinary support structure. Most of us would envy you in that position. When I questioned your husbandry I wasn't suggesting you were doing anything wrong, just that from what you have described there had to be a means / way that the infection was spread so quickly, and I think we often overlook or get a tad blasé when it comes to doing normal husbandry chores such as changing water bowls or spot cleaning and we don't follow good hygiene practices. I've often done this myself, not affording myself enough time to wash my hands between handling the bowls or used the same spoon to spot clean without wiping it down with F10 first. The only difference being that my collection is very well established and less likely to have the introduction of a virus. I think we all can agree that the RI originated from the new acquisition, which by the time it was detected had also spread to the others through contact transmission via your hands when attending to the other snake. Why just the four came down with it we'll never know. It could be down to the individual snakes immune system, or the germs were "diluted" for want of a better word by the time you reached the 5th snake not to cause such a threat.

Good luck, and we're all rooting for you.


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## lukeyb (Sep 30, 2012)

Malc said:


> By the sounds of you couldn't have better veterinary support structure. Most of us would envy you in that position. When I questioned your husbandry I wasn't suggesting you were doing anything wrong, just that from what you have described there had to be a means / way that the infection was spread so quickly, and I think we often overlook or get a tad blasé when it comes to doing normal husbandry chores such as changing water bowls or spot cleaning and we don't follow good hygiene practices. I've often done this myself, not affording myself enough time to wash my hands between handling the bowls or used the same spoon to spot clean without wiping it down with F10 first. The only difference being that my collection is very well established and less likely to have the introduction of a virus. I think we all can agree that the RI originated from the new acquisition, which by the time it was detected had also spread to the others through contact transmission via your hands when attending to the other snake. Why just the four came down with it we'll never know. It could be down to the individual snakes immune system, or the germs were "diluted" for want of a better word by the time you reached the 5th snake not to cause such a threat.
> 
> Good luck, and we're all rooting for you.


Thank you mate, I think you are correct and that it is me that has spread it via contact. Due to my inexperience with RI and my complacency I don't think I have helped stop the spread. Like I say I am now changing gloves after each spot clean/water change.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

lukeyb said:


> Thank you mate, I think you are correct and that it is me that has spread it via contact. Due to my inexperience with RI and my complacency I don't think I have helped stop the spread. Like I say I am now changing gloves after each spot clean/water change.


Hey, don't beat yourself up over it, we've all been complacent at some point when it comes to looking after snakes, that's how bites occur ! You could probably get away with washing your hands between handling water bowls etc, but going that little extra using disposable gloves is commendable, it should stem the risk of spreading it further amongst the collection if the virus is transmitted via contact rather then airborne.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Any update? were you able to prevent any further infection?


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## lukeyb (Sep 30, 2012)

Malc said:


> Any update? were you able to prevent any further infection?


Original 4 are still showing symptoms. Had another 2 start with symptoms. I'm thinking they may have already been infected before I started with the gloves.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

lukeyb said:


> Original 4 are still showing symptoms. Had another 2 start with symptoms. I'm thinking they may have already been infected before I started with the gloves.


Sorry to hear that....Did the vet prescribe any drugs? As mentioned, my boa responded well to Ceftazidine (Fortum) via intramuscular injections. This image is taken from a video I made, and you can see a lot of the mucus pooling top and bottom around the teeth (ignore the lump of substrate in his mouth, he had a tendency to pick bits up as he wiped his mouth)










The good thing was that from that image and her examination the rest of his mouth and throat shoed no signs of any secondary infection. 

Anyway, if my boa can make a full recovery I'm sure your Royals will too... Keep us posted on how things pan out

Just to add that the image was taken mid yawn... he wasn't constantly gaping like that !!


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## lukeyb (Sep 30, 2012)

Malc said:


> Sorry to hear that....Did the vet prescribe any drugs? As mentioned, my boa responded well to Ceftazidine (Fortum) via intramuscular injections. This image is taken from a video I made, and you can see a lot of the mucus pooling top and bottom around the teeth (ignore the lump of substrate in his mouth, he had a tendency to pick bits up as he wiped his mouth)
> 
> View attachment 369586
> 
> ...


I am waiting for a call back from the vet to discuss stronger treatment and possibly muscular injection. I am confident it can be treated but just need to find the right one. Glad your boa made it through.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

lukeyb said:


> I am waiting for a call back from the vet to discuss stronger treatment and possibly muscular injection. I am confident it can be treated but just need to find the right one. Glad your boa made it through.


I'm assuming swabs have been taken from each infected animal in order to identify the microbe responsible? If not, this needs to done ASAP. RI can be caused by a number of different pathogens, which all need different treatments to be eradicated. 
You cannot treat this using a blind "treat and see" method.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

ian14 said:


> I'm assuming swabs have been taken from each infected animal in order to identify the microbe responsible? If not, this needs to done ASAP. RI can be caused by a number of different pathogens, which all need different treatments to be eradicated.
> You cannot treat this using a blind "treat and see" method.


I agree that each case is different. In my case no other snake had an RI, and no swab was taken. The medication I was told to push for by several respected people (including Mark Amey), because I was told that whilst being quite a broad spectrum antibiotic has shown higher success rates and less side effects when used in snake than Bayrtil which used to be the standard goto drug.

Now this case is different in that 6 snakes are showing symptoms, so a more targeted approach would be better, and that swabs taken and cultures made to identify the true cause. In my case the treatment helped and between that and him taking food once more made a full recovery. I also changed the substrate as the Megazorb did have a tendency to break down into a fine dust due to the snakes bulk. My hunch was that this fine dust could have irritated and aggravated the airways, especially as the boa liked to bury his head and scoop the substrate around.

I would be asking the vet to take a swab from at least a couple of the snakes, if not all to confirm what the cause is and if its the same for each snake. Then hopefully a more targeted plan of action can be formulated to get the snakes back in full health. To the OP I wish you good luck, and thanks for keeping us posted on the progress


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