# Reality check



## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

A timely reminder that as keepers of non-indigenous amphibians we have responsibilities. 

Not buying wild caught amphibians and responsible disposal of waste water (mine goes in the house plants...) are two simple measures that would have gone a long way to prevent this. If enough of us get on board, we can also prevent any repeat. It costs nothing......

BBC News - Newt flesh fungus 'brought by pets'


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Yes. If we consider ourselves 'animal lovers' we have to take responsibility.


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## Liam Yule (Feb 16, 2012)

I always bleach! Interesting article!


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I don't bleach, but waste water from the animals is always used to water house and balcony plants- free fertiliser, lol! It goes further, though; wood, substrate etc from our tanks needs to be disposed of responsibly as well.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I have problems with this, they took over two thousand samples from pet animals and none showed up positive, yet three did in museums. If it were rife in the pet trade you would expect a high percentage of those newts and salamanders to have the disease.

Whilst Asian species seem to be unaffected by this it doesn`t necessarily mean that it originated there. 

If it is through the pet trade you would expect the disease to be rife through those European countries that import Asian caudates, but it has only shown up in Belgium and Holland so far.

One of the museum specimens is from 1870, surely this disease has not been dormant since then? Has it been around and unnoticed until the mass die offs recently?

I would suspect that there are other vectors that cause the spread of the disease.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

colinm said:


> I have problems with this, they took over two thousand samples from pet animals and none showed up positive, yet three did in museums. If it were rife in the pet trade you would expect a high percentage of those newts and salamanders to have the disease.
> 
> Whilst Asian species seem to be unaffected by this it doesn`t necessarily mean that it originated there.
> 
> ...


Interesting thoughts!


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I am not saying that we shouldn't be more responsible but everyone blames us pet keepers for these probs, but I think it's a lot more complex than that.

Fifteen or twenty years ago we were told about the original chytrid and how devastating it was. I don't know whether I have had it in my collection or not but I haven't had mass die backs of amphibians as predicted,


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

As I understand it, the effects of chytrid depend very much on other environmental factors- being related, I would assume that this one is similar.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

When I read the article earlier today my thoughts were very similar to several things Colin has pointed out.
Funny how it`s gone from "never heard of it" to "lets hit the panic button" literally overnight.
And I`m not meaning you there Nick.



Mike


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## Stupot1610 (Jul 6, 2013)

Although it is only in Belgium and Holland I still feel it is very worrying...


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

It is worrying, but it also worries me that those who don't want us to keep amphibians will use it for their own advantage.


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## Stupot1610 (Jul 6, 2013)

That is another disadvantage. Some people just don't understand that we actually do good for the animals. 

Stuart


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## james dean (Jan 10, 2011)

Stupot1610 said:


> That is another disadvantage. Some people just don't understand that we actually do good for the animals.
> 
> Stuart


well the people who don't want us keeping animals don't care how well we care or look after them even breed them they would rather animals went extinct rather than be kept in captivity, which as far as I think is arrogance beyond belief.

I have lost PDf's to what I believ was the Rana virus 10 yrs or so ago, (which is why I dropped out of the hobby finding 10 dead frogs in one weekend tends to knock the edge off) but I have to say I haven't found a single ailing amphib in any of the gardens I maintain for a few years now. And I used to find a lot at one point I think the later generations may have shown some immunity, which I was told years ago was the likely hood with the virus, also the very cold winter of 2010/11 may have helped kill of the virus. My own pond went from one clump of spawn in 2012 to 16 this spring, and one of my clients had 200 in 2008 or 9 last year they had 20 this year over 60 so hope fully the frogs are fighting back. Just like the rabbits do with mixie, but slower....


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Stu, Introduced Alpine Newts are blamed for spreading the original chytrid because apparently they have a high tolerance to the fungus. Whilst that may be the case I would think that more studies should be undertaken at to why they have a higher tolerance than our native newts. I can't help thinking that if it were not an alien species there wouldn't be so much fuss.


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## Stupot1610 (Jul 6, 2013)

colinm said:


> Stu, Introduced Alpine Newts are blamed for spreading the original chytrid because apparently they have a high tolerance to the fungus. Whilst that may be the case I would think that more studies should be undertaken at to why they have a higher tolerance than our native newts. I can't help thinking that if it were not an alien species there wouldn't be so much fuss.


This is a fascinating topic for me. I completely agree with you in regard to studies being undertaken. I think that if scientists can pin-point what it is that makes the alpine newts immune to chytrid they could produce some sort of solution to the problem that is chytrid. I'm sure this has already been thought of though :lol2:

I am studying several feral populations of alpine newts in edinburgh, but not in great scientific detail I just make observation and take my own notes. These populations haven't seemed to have affected local wildlife so either these groups don't carry chytrid or the native amohibians have developed something of an immunity, though the latter is unlikely.
I have had increasing amounts of frogspawn in my pond every year, our area doesn't seem to be affected by chytrid at all. A few years ago we would only get two or three clumps of spawn in the pond, this year we had just under 200 clumps. I don't think that chytrid has really got this far north, though please feel free to correct me.

Stuart


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

There was a study on Chytrid being done to find out how far it has spread in the UK, but like many thing scientific it takes so long to become public it`ll be out of date.
What I do remember of what info was available is that it was dotted around the place which I thought odd.
I would have thought it would be spreading across the country like a tidal wave, although thankfully a lot slower.


Mike


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

I thought the tone in the Science article was pretty moderate. There are lots of questions, obviously, but I think the point, as the authors say, is that these pathogens cannot be un-introduced... 

Chytrid has not been as bad here as it could have been, but that has no baring on the potential seriousness of future introductions, including this one. The effects of Bd have been every bit as bad as feared over much of its range. Doing nothing to reduce the risk of introduction, simply because we do not have all the facts, does not seem very sensible to me when the stakes are so high. It is entirely plausible that by the time I snuff it, half of the amphibian species in the world could be extinct and I find that quite sad. I would rather promote responsible behaviour than pick over the details on the off chance that they are wrong.

As for fretting about restrictions to our hobby - the best way to that end is to appear ignorant and reluctant to take reasonable biosecurity measures. Demonstrating awareness of the problem and suggesting solutions is not going to do anything but help our cause. More than that, I personally believe some sensible restrictions would be a very good thing.

'More studies' are all well and good, but it requires people to put their money where their mouth is. Last time I offered, a sum total of 7 people from the UK amphibian hobby were prepared to do that in order to identify pathogens in captive amphibians and identify bacterial strains that confer resistance as suggested above. Such offers have been made previously and met with equally stony silence. No one will do it for us. It is up to us to be part of the solution rather than arguing over whether there is even a problem. 

Anyway, enough of this depressing stuff. I need a beer!

Nick


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I had a look and there has been no updates so far to speak of.
Second National Chytrid Survey - Big Swab 2011 | Projects | ARG UK
More info on Chytrid can be found here Downloads | Atlases and Surveys - ARGUK | ARG UK by opening National survey of Batrachochytrium Dendrobatidis infection in UK amphibians


Mike


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Nick ,we're not studies done by ZSL at one of the Manchester frog days a few years ago and they came back. negative?

I liken this to the Ebola outbreak, we haven't halted all movement of people into the U.K from West Africa because of the risk of the disease.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Nick thanks for raising this!! 

Colin great thoughts, not much to add here as you guys have already covered most of what crossed my mind. But yup I think we are too easily blamed ,by the same token simple measures can render us blameless,maybe we should be more open/outspoken,I'm struggling for the right word, in showing folks we do take measures to prevent non native pathogens from leaving our collections. 

While I'm 100% in favour of us being responsible about our native populations and taking measures to prevent the above from happening, all manner of animals are moved around the planet by humans, and under their own steam. It seems unfair to pinpoint the pet trade as the only cause. A good while back Ed on DB linked some papers on the import and export of frogs for the food trade,the numbers are astounding,seriously ASTOUNDING!! I'm not sure whether frogs can carry this form of chytrid(Nick can you correct if anything here is wrong please),but american bullfrogs can carry BD and so have spore of the fungus been found on wildfowl feet. So to paint the pet trade as sole cause seems a bit premature to me.Mind we have to keep our house in order regardless 


I too think we could have made more of your offer Nick,I've said it many times before but huge thanks for what you and Micheal undertook to try and do for our hobby. I'm sure many of us were terrified of the potential results,we certainly were. But one can't bury one's head in the sand it's such a shame more didn't grab this chance . Hmm running with that when cases like this arise and we are held to blame it would be a big card in our favour if all of us could just say,my frogs are clear,don't look here,I can show the results from our tests!! Yeah I know a gross oversimplification ,but it wouldn't harm our cause at all,in my humble opinion

For the new guy just a few simple tips partially already covered.
bleach all your waste water leave it stand until clear then it can go anywhere down the loo etc(obviously if it's going on the house plants I can't see an issue). We have a simple blue bucket for bleach(Stu proof:whistling2 stood in the bathroom that is used for nothing else. Solid waste either double bag and send into the waste stream or for those that can burn it:we have a wood burner so all dead plants bits or wood used subs for kids,just get burned. Guys I am picking on this,but it isn't so bad we all love phibs and these actions are just plain easy to undertake.

take care all, Nick thanks again

Stu


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

colinm said:


> Nick ,we're not studies done by ZSL at one of the Manchester frog days a few years ago and they came back. negative?
> 
> I liken this to the Ebola outbreak, we haven't halted all movement of people into the U.K from West Africa because of the risk of the disease.


Ha I'm not him ,but I'm sure you are right Colin Musty organised all this at the first UK frogday I believe,I'm unsure if they did a repeat though.Again not 100% but pretty sure, yes, results were negative as with the testing Nick organised for RV and Bd,certainly Nick's was a clean sweep for those that took part
best
Stu


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

I don't know what the results from the frog day testing were, but I also heard that it was a clean sweep. Same with the testing I organised, which was a great result. BUT a snapshot in time for a handful of collections really tells you nothing. And we know there are limitations with the testing for ranavirus, for example. I also know of two people around that time that had Bd in their collections and took appropriate measures to contain it. Others had mystery infections that turned out to be bacterial. Importantly, since none of the big sellers (as far as I know?) who distribute frogs far and wide, and deal with most of the imports, submitted to the testing the results are somewhat limited. It's a start though and definitely a positive thing. I agree with Stu, that the best defence of our hobby is to say that we're a small, close community with a culture of responsible practice making it demonstrably unlikely that we will be responsible for any future pathogen release. 

I'd like to also make the point that I don't disagree fundamentally with anything that's been said here, and the link was posted purely for information. I've not read the original paper yet, however being published in PNAS and featured in Science is usually a pretty good indication that the work is sound (despite what the conspiracy theorists may say). It's just a shame that in cases like this people often get bogged down in the peripheral details and loose sight of the big picture. There are so many examples, but the one closest to me is the transportation of marine invasive species which are the greatest threat to marine biodiversity after habitat loss - more than collection, pollution and disease combined. They are for the most part transported attached to the hulls of ships, to a lesser degree in ballast water and then much lower down the list there are minor contributors such as natural vectors, intentional introductions and, like Bd, e.g. barnacles attached to seabirds' feet. While debate has raged over the magnitude of the effect of e.g. ballast water and other minor contributors, with various parties with vested interests picking holes in the data for various historical introductions, the major contributor (and the 'big picture' fact that there clearly IS a problem that needs to be addressed) has been ignored, introductions have continued and 20 years down the line the genie is now too far out of the bottle to be coerced back in. 

It's not the best analogy, but there are similarities to this debate. Presumably no one would argue with the possibility that something nasty could be brought into a collection with a wild amphibian and released into the environment by careless waste disposal. That's just a fact. Whether it can be pinpointed as the cause of this particular outbreak is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned - it should just stand to remind us that we CAN take simple measures to significantly reduce the risk of it happening in the FUTURE. There will certainly be other nasties raising their heads and the chances of us (the hobby) being the culprit for releasing them over here are only increased by people saying "it's never been our fault in the past, therefore it never will be". We can quite easily stop being defensive and apply some common sense. In my opinion it's best to be proactive, rather than potentially having to defend sloppy practice after the fact - that's all 

Best,

Nick


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

What really worries me about this report is the fact that the cause seems to be blamed on the importation of Asian caudates just by the very fact that these caudates can live without any harm with this "new" disease. Its easy to blame the trade in these animals for introducing this problem. These animals have been traded for decades without any problems.

Now does this mean that the problem is a new one or has it just been recognised ? 

Whilst the irresponsible release or contamination from the pet trade may be culprit many other items from south east Asia are imported annually that can carry the disease , why are not these being looked at?

It is a well known fact that environmental factors play a big role in the spread of the original chytrid more studies needs to be completed into this new disease to see why it is so lethal. It would also be interesting to see why frogs and toads are unaffected.

For me there are more questions than answers with this problem and whilst pet keepers always get the blame for these type of issues, I dont see it quite as simply as that. We can reduce the problems that we may cause through proper environmental controls but that is not the be all and end all.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

This is as has been said, most interesting.

We as keepers and traders need to face the fact that imports will be stopped. It is already being debated and has been for ages.

I am writing in the trade press every month, month in month out trying to persuade all concerned to keep good care of everything that comes in now and to get it bred from/farmed here in the UK. 

It is possible that movement even between E.U nations will be banned or heavily restricted.

If we live as if imports are banned already we will by definition make more of what we are privileged to have access to now at stupid low prices.

I have been through all this before in the bird trade, with no warning or consultation period the whole industry lost 99% of its supply over night! tens of thousands of birds were euthanized in quarantine on the spot all over the E.U and we saw the almost over night closing of most of the bird traders. This was mid 2000s on a Thursday. Its burned into my mind. It has only been this year that traders are able to get access to birds again as CB in numbers high enough to enable retail. Its been almost 10 years!

So rather than the trades mentality of "it will never happen" we should act like it has and make the most of this "boom" time now.

Imagine no more imports of 25c B orientalis to retail for a fiver or less......more like £25-30 for C.B babies IF you can get enough to call them a tradable species.

The disease worries are quite rightly a worry and we should not ship in from host nations I feel, but this will be used as another arrow from the anti WC people and a very sharp one at that IF we cannot get our science and procedures right.

The legal trade is not really the issue of course, infected frogs are picked up quickly by experienced dealers and dealt with or they expire. The real problem is those that travel to Europe collecting salamanders and alike. No checks or balances just risk!

Just my thoughts,

John


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## Kiwibird (Mar 27, 2014)

I never really thought twice about dumping tank water outside... I guess I just thought so long as I wasn't turning a foreign animal loose into the environment all was fine. The article was written in such a way it was kind of scary from a conservation POV, but didn't exactly say what to do if you own a newt to try and stop the spread of this contamination...

Is pouring it down the drain safer? I've had my newt for many years so wouldn't a fungus have killed him by now or run it's course? Aren't most newts for the pet trade captive-bred?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Flush it down the toilet with some bleach.

It depends what newts you buy. If you buy Chinese Firebellied Newts they are likely to be imported and "farmed" at facilities in the Far East. If you buy Alpine or Marbled Newts they are likely to be captive bred. As John said price is often an indicator, as most captive bred species will be more expensive.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Arcadiajohn said:


> I am writing in the trade press every month, month in month out trying to persuade all concerned to keep good care of everything that comes in now and to get it bred from/farmed here in the UK.
> 
> It is possible that movement even between E.U nations will be banned or heavily restricted.
> 
> ...


 I am sure that imports will stop whether its due to the risk of new diseases or updated legislation through hokem of invasive species or unsuitability of pets. Holland and Belgium are in the process of introducing White Lists of animals being allowed to be kept as pets . As far as I know the amphibian list has not been published in Belgium but the reptile list has and there are none of the pet species on there, no Bearded Dragons, Corn Snakes or Leopard Geckos. If it is adhered to it will be illegal to keep and breed these in time.

I am surprised that the Dutch and Belgian reptile fraternity have not made a bigger fuss of this as it will affect the hobbyist and trade. Think of all of the Dartfrogs that are kept in these countries.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Yes and it seems that the UK trade are doing very good ostrich impressions at the moment,

I have had it from the horses mouth, it will happen, Amphibs go first, then reptiles and then inverts.

Then we get regulation of species and maybe even Australian type keeping exams. 

We should as responsible traders and hobby keepers be prepared for this and shake the proverbial elephant in the room by the trunk!. 

I hope that I am wrong, but I fear I am not. ( I must point out that I am not now a supporter of wild collection. I long for a day where we can farm ethically and sustainably those species that we love in captivity and that revenue is ploughed back from this into wild conservation, but hey im still waiting with hope for a re-launch of the capri!)

John





colinm said:


> I am sure that imports will stop whether its due to the risk of new diseases or updated legislation through hokem of invasive species or unsuitability of pets. Holland and Belgium are in the process of introducing White Lists of animals being allowed to be kept as pets . As far as I know the amphibian list has not been published in Belgium but the reptile list has and there are none of the pet species on there, no Bearded Dragons, Corn Snakes or Leopard Geckos. If it is adhered to it will be illegal to keep and breed these in time.
> 
> I am surprised that the Dutch and Belgian reptile fraternity have not made a bigger fuss of this as it will affect the hobbyist and trade. Think of all of the Dartfrogs that are kept in these countries.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I completely agree about amphibians because of there succeptibility to disease, but reports like this do worry me because everything seems to be "our problem" I am not going to go into further detail on here but I fully suspect that is why the trade in wild caught or wild farmed ones will halt.

It is a pity because if they are harvested sustainably they can be traded, but thats another debate.

Your analogy with the bird trade is good, that was through worries over bird flu which were exagerated.


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## Stupot1610 (Jul 6, 2013)

Arcadiajohn said:


> The legal trade is not really the issue of course, infected frogs are picked up quickly by experienced dealers and dealt with or they expire. The real problem is those that travel to Europe collecting salamanders and alike. No checks or balances just risk!


Do people really go to Europe and collect wild caudates? How do they even get them back here to the UK?

Stuart


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Almost Zero boarders mate, and yes I believe it does.

John





Stupot1610 said:


> Do people really go to Europe and collect wild caudates? How do they even get them back here to the UK?
> 
> Stuart


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Arcadiajohn said:


> Yes and it seems that the UK trade are doing very good ostrich impressions at the moment,
> 
> I have had it from the horses mouth, it will happen, Amphibs go first, then reptiles and then inverts.
> 
> ...


Ha Damn I loved me old 2.8i:whistling2:

John this is almost more desparate considering what's happening with such organisations such as the CRARC Wikiri and Tereros,it's seems to me we,the phib hobby, are at one of the most exciting times,where projects really are coming to fruition that enable money to be ploughed back into conservation, provide benefits to locals and a means to keep rainforrest in tact. I guess the phib hobby, especially, is vunerable, us being so small.

I hope you and Colin are wrong,but we've been hearing these rumours for some time now

take care both 

Stu


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Unfortunately I dont think so Stu. I cant find Chris Newman`s posts here but most people seem to be burying their heads in the sand. In my opinion it is likely to be a range of legislation that will make it harder for us keepers to keep what we like rather than one specific mandate.

On the good news front the list of invasive species that are banned of Amphibians and Reptiles in the U.K. is likely to be very small .


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

News just in, not unexpected but likely to cause debate leading to action.

www.amphibians.org/news/asg-asa-trade-statement/

as always it is better to the trade to regulate itself in these matters and to protect legal trade going forward than it is to be regulated upon. A "phib" ban would do damage to the in-situ farms and be a leading edge into the restrictions of core reptiles and inverts going forward.

john


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Repta and Oarta have issued guidelines for the importation of Asian species. Apparently this strain can be killed by keeping the animals at higher temperatures for ten days.

OATA advice on newts after new strain of deadly fungus found - Ornamental Aquatic Trade Association


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

its a great move if it is maintained.

again self regulation has to be better than forced!

john


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Arcadiajohn said:


> its a great move if it is maintained.
> 
> again self regulation has to be better than forced!
> 
> john


Naturally John we have to stand up and get it right or someone will make us,the juxta is that we are the guys that care,probably more than anyone about amphibians !! BUUUT, these threads are skipped through and real sound solid words that would prevent anything getting from a collection to the wild are missed it;s right here in this thread John.

Colin I know I'm pedantic about this bleach in a bucket lark,then flush,We've done this yonks back,but I am being that pedantic for a reason(that big picture...THIS big picture)), I'm sure you're method is equally viable ,but there is more.... we have to be able to say it isn't us to blame 100%.

I think we have the same message with Bd,high temps affect this form of the virus too. It is commendable that OATA have acted so quickly,all kudos. 


Bro as our mod could you create something ,,man is that possible, that phib keepers will just read and act upon???? 

In all honesty this thread should be the most viewed most posted upon,all of us should be delving into what we can do better,to safe guard the spread of non native pathogens. Mate I'm utterly not trying to rubbish a method mine yours it is utterly not about that,it's about us the hobby NOT BEING ABLE TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE by anyone. I share your points of "is this really us to blame", things are not adding up to me comp[letely either. But I'm this new guy learning the ropes,not a scientist. That simple logic that sees me doing what I do is very prevalent here as well,we have to find a method that makes us not culpable or some one will make US the witch to burn !! 

Kinda wish I was posting to more than just a few though not much point in preaching to the converted,but worth keeping this one running just for that

belucky both

Stu


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## Tappers (Jan 22, 2008)

I'm rather late to the party but Stu, you're right about the preaching to the converted side of things - if you care enough to read the reports and this thread you're probably ready and willing to review your biosecurity. Sadly as a community we're only as strong as our weakest member.

An additional factor is the antipathy between conservation bodies and hobbyists and I've found myself torn at times, especially when we get the rap for ailments such as Bd. Was there really ever anyone keeping Xenopus as a hobby in places like Colombia?!

John, you're spot on about the inevitability of a ban on wild-caught animals and I've been dismayed at the failure of many people to appreciate the value of commonplace species that are heading for extinction in the hobby unless we establish viable CB populations


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Stu, It does concern me that not many people are concerned about these kind of hobby issues, but there will have been more people who have read this thread than have commented.There are the pet keepers who keep a couple of animals who probably are not interested and the hobbyists who keep a collection that should be worried. I could create a sticky but I don't think people really read them. So any thoughts would be welcome.

I still have serious concerns about this report and as Tappers said about the original chytrid but am not going to post them on a public forum as we know that not everyone on here is pro the hobby. By that I don't mean any of the posters on this thread.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Colin,i'm utterly with you I don't think the stickies are delved into either,my simple suggestion would be a PLEASE READ,not in the stickies, though. I'd also, if I had any semblance of computer skill, make that flash and as our backdrop is blue put it in red. Colin I know it's slightly nuts ,but you did ask and for a simple guy like me, something different will attract folks. 


Paul,tappers,Hey mate, I share your concerns about how we manage our frogs. I am utterly not so sure that the oft quoted Xenopus are completely to blame for the spread of Bd though. I wish I could find those papers Ed showed me on the frogleg trade mate,it's not tens of,or hundreds maybe more sure(pet trade),we are talking millions of frogs being moved around the planet that have been tested and are proven to be carriers. I utterly think we can do better,but with so many animals implicated there it seems,again as a layman, "the elephant in the room" is being completely ignored!! 

Guys I still can't find exactly what I want to show you,I want you to actually see those numbers,but I can find numerous articles such as this. It seems to all ready be proven that the fungus is mutating,4 strains listed here,plus asia is linked repeatedly in the food trade. So it doesn't really seem a wild stretch of the imagination to implicate frogs coming out of asia for food to this new strain of of the fungus.

Live Bullfrog Trade Implicated in Amphibian-Killing Disease

best

Stu


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