# EPS Licensing - Damned if you do, or damned if you don't?



## Ssthisto

Another article, written for the PKL. I apologise for this article's length - I wanted this to be a comprehensive overview.

*European Protected Species Licensing *
*Damned if you do, or damned if you don't?*​ 
As of 21st August 2007, the amendments to the 1994 Conservation (Natural Habitats &c.) Regulations came into force. These amendments are being called the "European Protected Species Act" and they have some rather wide-ranging implications for keepers of any European species.

The legislation is designed to bring UK law into line with the EU Habitats Directive (which came into force in 1994) and offer greater protection to certain species of animals and plant that are threatened in some part of their European range. This is whether or not the species lives in the United Kingdom (the basis of the previous Conservation laws.) These laws are designed to stop importation of wild caught animals, stop exploitation of their populations and to prevent the destruction of their habitat. At this time, the government agency *Natural England* is responsible for the licensing and enforcement of this directive.

*What does it really change?*

1. It makes it against the law to deliberately *disturb the habitat of* or *catch, injure or kill* wild animals listed in the European Protected Species Annex IV listing *without a license*.
2. It makes it against the law to *own an animal* - or part of an animal - listed in Annex IV *without a license*.
3. It makes it against the law to *sell or transport an animal* - or part of one - *without a separate license* that is not part of the standard ownership license.

*Who does it affect?*

Do you have any animals of species listed on the European Protected Species Annex IV list at the bottom of this page?

If you do - it affects you. The new law requires proof without a shadow of a doubt (and it is up to you to make the proof if you are prosecuted) that:

Your animals are *captive bred*, either here in the UK, in the EU or anywhere else in the world (and have never lived in the wild for any length of time) _or_
Your animals were *wild caught*, but they were imported into the UK from a country *outside the EU* _or_
You personally have *owned the animals since 1993* (before the EU Habitats Directive came into effect) no matter how they were obtained.
Otherwise, your animals are *automatically considered illegally wild caught* *and imported from the EU* - and are then subject to licensing. 

*OK, so what's the good side of the law?*

Well, it does give wild populations greater protection, and should ensure that the species that exist within the UK are afforded protection against habitat destruction... although these protections were in place when our version of the Habitats Directive were made law back in 1994.

*Are you sure it's as bad as you think?*

In a word, yes. 

*First:* Because the *import and possession of non-UK EPS species was not previously regulated* by DEFRA, there has never been paperwork issued for the import of individual animals of these species. Unlike CITES Appendix I animals, where Article 10 paperwork refers to one animal and one animal only (and these animals are microchipped to permanently identify them), no such paperwork exists for the animals listed in the EPS Annex IV. Even a legal import from outside the EU may only have a single line listing multiple animals and referring to a DEFRA / Customs import number. This would not likely be considered suitable proof of legal origin - not least because you cannot prove that your animal was one of the animals listed on that particular import sheet.
*Second:* Animals in your possession now are *considered to be wild caught and thus illegal to own without a license UNLESS evidence to the contrary is provided by the keeper.* This is not an "innocent until proven guilty" offense - this is "guilty unless you can prove without reasonable doubt." In any prosecution, the Court is instructed to presume the animal wild caught unless documentary evidence to the contrary can be supplied.
*Third:* From the 21st of August, there are only _*three months "grace" to apply for licenses for animals currently in captivity*_. How many people KNOW how wide-ranging this legislation is? As of September 1st there are still shops selling species on this list - and not all shop keepers know that these species are now regulated and cannot be sold without the "Sale and Transportation" licenses (unless they can prove origins as CB or imported from outside the EU).
*Fourth:* _*If you choose to apply for a license*_ based on the idea that you don't know for sure where your animal came from - and that you can't prove you meet CB, outside the EU or prior to 1993 criteria - you will be asked for documentation that - because these animals weren't regulated before - might not readily be available to you. For example:

Documentary evidence of *how the animal came into your possession.* A signed letter from the importer listing your species might be accepted - but what's to say your animals were part of the list they give you? If you've had the animal in your possession for years, have you kept your receipt? What about if you bought it from another private keeper?
*Two references may be required* to demonstrate that you have the skills and knowledge to care for your animals. The license documents also ask for a *detailed description of the housing* you intend to keep it in to keep it healthy and prevent escapes.
*You must justify your reasons for keeping the animal* - whether it is for scientific or educational purposes, for a reintroduction program or "Under supervised conditions not included above". One assumes that the purpose of keeping them as pets is included in the latter - but there is *no guidance for pet keepers* specifically.
*Fifth:* In order to grant a license, the governing body, *Natural England, must be satisfied that there is "no satisfactory alternative" to keeping the animal* - and wants details of the alternatives you have considered with regards to the animals you wish to keep - namely, "Why do you need to possess and retain the animal?"
*Sixth:* The governing body, *Natural England, reserves the rights to disclose your information to third parties* - such as government departments - in order to process your application. If you apply for a license and fail to obtain one because you cannot fulfil their requirements, will they be passing your details to the RSPCA or another government agency to come and confiscate your animals?
*Seventh:* *Site visits may be made* - and do not necessarily have to be in your presence once you've applied for your license. Yes, that means they can come onto your property and check on your animals - and if they're not happy...
*Lastly.... your license can be revoked at any time.*

It is not illegal to fail to have a license - but *it IS illegal to have animals in your possession that require licensing without one*, and you can be prosecuted for this. If your license is revoked, you're automatically in violation of the law, and your animals may be confiscated for the duration of the court proceedings. *If you are found guilty, the maximum punishment is six months imprisonment and/or £5000 in fines*. 

Natural England would not disclose to me *what would happen to your animals if you fail to obtain a license and they are confiscated*. If they won't tell a concerned keeper, is this because confiscated animals of non-native species will be euthanased?

*What about the future?*

Well, there’s no guarantee they won’t add more European species to the list as more countries join the EU and register their concerns about the populations of species native to their country. That could have the effect that an animal that was legal for you to own yesterday is no longer legal without a license today.

The greater implication, however, is that CITES Annex II animals have similar legal status - unregulated as long as being traded within the EU - but if EPS legislation appears successful… is it possible they will introduce similar ones for CITES species - including many of the most commonly kept pet reptile species? When you consider that all boas, pythons, monitors, chameleons and many, many more are CITES Annex II… we’re looking at a bleak future.

*And why do you care?*

I’m an owner of a species on the list – a pair of Sheltopusik legless lizards. I obtained them in February 2006 from another private keeper with the intent of breeding them, and there was no paperwork or even a receipt. All I got when I bought Chumley and Tananda was a couple of pillowcases to carry them in. 

We suspect they were wild caught since they are both adult specimens – but without documentary proof they were caught outside the EU, we’re walking a risky path. We may not be able to obtain a license simply because we have no proof of origin. Even if we track down the guy we got them from, we know HE got them from two different sources – and not directly from a shop or importer, either.

It doesn’t help that Chumley, our male, was injured by Tananda (They’re no longer cage mates) and has required vet care; now, we’re worried about taking him to a veterinarian – because the vet may feel morally obligated to report our ownership of a protected species. This may mean that we choose to have Chumley humanely euthanized during the “grace period” just so that he is not confiscated and subjected to potentially worse conditions.

_But what do we do with Tananda? _
No proof of origin. No references to prove we can take care of her. I don’t want to see a perfectly healthy animal put to sleep because her owners can’t afford the fine or the potential jail time. We can’t release her into the wild – that’s an illegal act itself – and she’d probably die anyway. And we could try to hide her indefinitely… but what happens if SHE needs vet care?

We’re stuck. Do we kill healthy animals, or do we put the rest of our animals at risk should we be prosecuted?

European Protected Species Legislation – It isn’t protecting them, is it?


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## Ssthisto

*OK, tell me what species I have to worry about on the EPS List.*

It's a long list.... but here goes (Mammals, Reptiles and Amphibians):

*Note: *
*Animals of particular concern, as they’re found regularly in the pet, utility and exotics trades, have been highlighted in blue. If you've seen a species I haven't highlighted in your local shop or on a stock list, it'll be useful to know what IS actually traded - and what buyers should watch out for.*

*Where possible, I have attempted to give the animals common names - if you know of another common name for the species listed, please let me know. *

*Mammals:*
*Insectivores:* 
_Erinaceus (Atelerix) algirus_ (Algerian Hedgehog), 
_Crocidura canariensis_ (Canary Shrew), 
_Crocidura sicula_ (Sicilian Shrew), 
_Galemys pyrenaicus_ (Pyrenean Desman)
*Megachiroptera:* 
_Rousettus aegiptiacus_ (Egyptian Fruit Bat)
*Microchiroptera:* 
ALL European species of Microchiropteran bats
*Rodents:* 
_Marmota marmota latirostris_ (Tatra Marmot), 
_Pteromys volans_ (Sciuropterus russicus) (Siberian Flying Squirrel), 
_Spermophilus citellus_ (Citellus citellus) (European Ground Squirrel), 
_Spermophilus suslicus_ (Citellus suslicus) (Speckled Ground Squirrel), 
_Sciurus anomalus_ (Caucasian Squirrel), 
_Castor fiber_ (Beavers, except certain populations), 
_Cricetus cricetus_ (Black-Bellied Hamster), 
_Microtus cabrerae_ (Cabrera’s vole), 
_Microtus oeconomus arenicola_ and _Microtus oeconomus mehelyi_ (Tundra Voles) 
_Microtus tatricus_ (Tatra Pine Vole) 
_Sicista betulina_ (Northern Birch Mouse) 
_Sicista subtilis_ (Southern Birch Mouse), 
_Hystrix cristata_ (North African crested porcupine) 
ALL _Gliridae _(Dormice) except _Glis glis_ (Edible Dormouse) and _Eliomys quercinus_ (Garden Dormouse)
*Carnivora:* 
_Alopex (Vulpes) lagopus_ (Arctic Fox), 
_Canis lupus_ (Grey Wolf – includes all subspecies and wild/feral populations*) 
_Ursus arctos_ (Brown Bear) 
_Lutra lutra_ (European Otter) 
_Mustela eversmanii_ (Steppe Polecat) 
_Mustela lutreola_ (European Mink) 
_Felis silvestris_ (Wild Cat – includes all subspecies and wild/feral populations*) 
_Lynx lynx_ (Eurasian Lynx) 
_Lynx pardinus_ (Spanish Lynx) 
_Monachus monachus_ (Mediterranean Monk Seal) 
_Phoca hispida saimensis_ (Ringed Seal)
*Artiodactyls:* 
_Cervus elaphus corsicanus_ (Corsican Red Deer), 
_Bison bonasus_ (European Bison), 
_Capra aegagrus_ (Wild Goat) 
_Capra pyrenaica pyrenaica_ (Spanish Ibex) 
_Ovis gmelini musimon (Ovis ammon musimon)_ and _Ovis orientalis ophion (Ovis gmelini ophion)_ (Argali) 
_Rupicapra pyrenaica ornata (Rupicapra rupicapra ornata)_ and _Rupicapra rupicapra balcanica_ and _Rupicapra rupicapra tatrica_ (Chamois) 
*Cetacea:* 
All Species

*Reptiles:*
*Tortoises and Turtles:* 
_Testudo graeca_ (Mediterranean Spur-Thighed and Greek Tortoise) 
_Testudo hermanni_ (Hermann’s Tortoise) 
_Testudo marginata_ (Marginated Tortoise) 
_Caretta caretta_ (Loggerhead Sea Turtle) 
_Chelonia mydas_ (Green Sea Turtle) 
_Lepidochelys kempii_ (Kemp’s Ridley Sea Turtle) 
_Eretmochelys imbricata_ (Hawksbill Sea Turtle) 
_Dermochelys coriacea_ (Leatherback Sea Turtle) 
_Emys orbicularis_ (European Pond Turtle) 
_Mauremys caspica_ (Caspian Turtle) 
_Mauremys leprosa_ (Mediterranean Turtle)

*Lizards:* 
Lacertids: 
_Algyroides fitzingeri_ (Pygmy Algyroides), 
_Algyroides marchi_ (Spanish Algyroides), 
_Algyroides moreoticus_ (Greek Algyroides), 
_Algyroides nigropunctatus_ (Dalmatian Algyroides), 
_Gallotia atlantica_ (Canary Island Lizard), 
_Gallotia galloti_ (Tenerife Lizard), 
_Gallotia galloti insulanagae_ (Anaga Lizard), 
_Gallotia simonyi_ (El Hierro Giant Lizard), 
_Gallotia stehlini_ (Canary Island Lizard), 
_Lacerta agilis_ (Sand Lizard – all subspecies) 
_Lacerta bedriagae_ (Bedriaga’s Rock Lizard), 
_Lacerta bonnali_ (Lacerta monticola) (Pyrenean Rock Lizard), 
_Lacerta monticola_ (Iberian Rock Lizard), 
_Lacerta danfordi_ (Danford’s Lizard), 
_Lacerta dugesi_, 
_Lacerta graeca_ (Greek Rock Lizard), 
_Lacerta horvathi_ (Horvath’s Rock Lizard), 
_Lacerta schreiberi_ (Iberian Emerald Lizard), 
_Lacerta trilineata_ (Balkan Emerald Lizard), 
_Lacerta viridis_ (European Green Lizard) 
_Lacerta (Zootoca) vivipara pannonica_ (Viviparous/Common Lizard) 
_Ophisops elegans_ (Snake-Eyed Lizard), 
_Podarcis erhardii_ (Erhard’s Wall Lizard), 
_Podarcis filfolensis_ (Maltese Wall Lizard), 
_Podarcis hispanica atrata_, 
_Podarcis lilfordi_ (Balearic Lizard), 
_Podarcis melisellensis_ (Dalmatian Wall Lizard), 
_Podarcis milensis_ (Milos Wall Lizard), 
_Podarcis muralis_ (Common Wall Lizard) 
_Podarcis peloponnesiaca_ (Peloponnese Wall Lizard), 
_Podarcis pityusensis_ (Ibiza Wall Lizard), 
_Podarcis sicula_ (Italian Wall Lizard), 
_Podarcis taurica_ (Balkan Wall Lizard), 
_Podarcis tiliguerta_ (Tyrrhenian Wall Lizard), 
_Podarcis wagleriana_ (Sicilian Wall Lizard)
Skinks: 
_Ablepharus kitaibelii_, 
_Chalcides bedriagai_ (Bedriaga’s Skink), 
_Chalcides ocellatus_ (Oscellated / Eyed Skink), 
_Chalcides sexlineatus_ (Gran Canaria / Emerald Skink) 
_Chalcides simonyi (Chalcides occidentalis)_ (Eastern Canary Skink), 
_Chalcides viridianus_, 
_Ophiomorus punctatissimus_
Geckos: 
_Cyrtopodion kotschyi_ (Kotschy’s Gecko), 
_Phyllodactylus europaeus_ (Leaf-Fingered Gecko), 
_Tarentola angustimentalis_ (East Canary Gecko), 
_Tarentola boettgeri_ (Gran Canaria Gecko), 
_Tarentola delalandii_ (Tenerife Gecko), 
_Tarentola gomerensis_ (La Gomera Gecko)
Chameleons: 
_Chamaeleo chamaeleon_ (Mediterranean Chameleon)
Agamids: 
_Stellio (Laudakia, Agama) stellio_ (Starred Agama)
Anguids: 
_Ophisaurus (Pseudopus) apodus_ (Giant European Glass Lizard, Sheltopusik)

*Snakes*:
Colubrids: 
_Coluber caspius_ (Large Whip Snake) 
_Coluber cypriensis_ (Cyprus Whip Snake) 
_Coluber hippocrepis_ (Horseshoe Whip Snake) 
_Coluber jugularis_ (Black Whip Snake) 
_Coluber laurenti_ (Laurent’s Whip Snake) 
_Coluber najadum_ (Dahl’s Whip Snake) 
_Coluber nummifer_ (Coin Marked Snake) 
_Coluber viridiflavus_ (Western Whip Snake) 
_Coronella austriaca_ (Smooth Snake) 
_Eirenis modesta_ (Dwarf Snake) 
_Elaphe longissima_ (Aesculapian Snake) 
_Elaphe quatuorlineata_ (Four-Lined Rat Snake) 
_Elaphe (Zamenis) situla_ (Leopard Rat Snake) 
_Natrix natrix cetti_ (Sardinian Grass Snake) 
_Natrix natrix corsa_ (Corsican Grass Snake) 
_Natrix natrix cypriaca_ (Cyprus Grass Snake) 
_Natrix tessellata_ (Dice Snake) 
_Telescopus falax_ (European Cat Snake)
Vipers: 
_Vipera ammodytes_ (Nose-Horned Viper) 
_Macrovipera schweizeri_ (Vipera lebetina schweizeri)(Milos Viper) 
_Vipera seoanni_ (Seoane’s Viper - except Spanish populations) 
_Vipera ursinii_ (Meadow Viper) 
_Vipera xanthina_ (Ottoman Viper)
Boids: 
_Eryx jaculus_ (Javelin Sand Boa)

*Amphibians:*
Newts and Salamanders: 
_Chioglossa lusitanica_ (Golden Striped Salamander) 
_Euproctus asper_ (Pyranean Brook Salamander) 
_Euproctus montanus_ (Corsican Brook Newt) 
_Euproctus platycephalus_ (Sardinian Brook Salamander) 
_Mertensiella luschani (Salamandra luschani)_ (Luschan’s Salamander) _Salamandra atra_ (Alpine Salamander) 
_Salamandra aurorae_ (Golden Alpine Salamander) 
_Salamandra lanzai_ (Large Alpine Salamander) 
_Salamandrina terdigitata_ (Spectacled Salamander) 
_Triturus carnifex (Triturus cristatus carnifex)_ (Italian Crested Newt) 
_Triturus cristatus (Triturus cristatus cristatus)_ (Greater Crested Newt) 
_Triturus italicus_ (Italian Newt) 
_Triturus karelinii_ (Triturus cristatus karelinii) (Southern Crested Newt) 
_Triturus marmoratus_ (Marbled Newt) 
_Triturus montandoni_ (Carpathian Newt) 
_Proteus anguinus_ (Olm) 
_Hydromantes (Speleomantes) ambrosii_ (Ambrosi’s Cave Salamander) 
_Hydromantes (Speleomantes) flavus_ (Monte Albo Cave Salamander) 
_Hydromantes (Speleomantes) genei_ (Sardinian Cave Salamander) 
_Hydromantes (Speleomantes) imperialis_ (Imperial Cave Salamander) 
_Hydromantes (Speleomantes) strinatii_ (Earth Newt) 
_Hydromantes (Speleomantes) italicus_ (Italian Cave Salamander) 
_Hydromantes (Speleomantes) supramontes_ (Supramonte Cave Salamander)
Frogs and Toads: 
_Alytes cisternasii_ (Iberian Midwife Toad) 
_Alytes muletensis_ (Mallorcan Midwife Toad) 
_Alytes obstetricans_ (Midwife Toad) 
_Bombina bombina_ (Fire-Bellied Toad) 
_Bombina variegata_ (Yellow-Bellied Toad) 
_Discoglossus galganoi (including Discoglossus "jeanneae")_ (Iberian Painted Frog) 
_Discoglossus montalentii_ (Corsican Painted Frog) 
_Discoglossus pictus_ (Painted Frog) 
_Discoglossus sardus_ (Tyrrhenian Painted Frog) 
_Rana arvalis_ (Moor Frog) 
_Rana dalmatina_ (Agile Frog) 
_Rana graeca_ (Balkan Stream/ Greek Frog) 
_Rana iberica_ (Iberian Frog) 
_Rana italica_ (Italian Stream Frog) 
_Rana latastei_ (Italian Agile Frog) 
_Rana (Pelophylax) lessonae_ (Pool Frog) 
_Pelobates cultripes_ (Western Spadefoot Toad) 
_Pelobates fuscus_ (Common Spadefoot Toad) 
_Pelobates syriacus_ (Eastern Spadefoot Toad) 
_Bufo (Epidalea) calamita_ (Natterjack Toad) 
_Bufo viridis_ (European Green Toad) 
_Hyla arborea_ (European Tree Frog) 
_Hyla meridionalis_ (Mediterranean Tree Frog) 
_Hyla sarda_ (Tyrrhenian Tree Frog)


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## Trice

That does seem quite stupid..
I mean When i got my leopard geckos and my bearded dragon (not on the list i know, but as an eg) I didn't get any information on them. I didn't even get told if they were CB or not. (which obviously they usually are) But what if i had gone and bought one of these reptiles that have newly been put on the list.. I'd be buggered, as i'd have no way of tracking the people down to get a license. And i'd never let someone take them from me.


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## Moshpitviper

We have been asked to collect a number of european species from 5 ponds in someones garden. the gentleman who started the collection died suddenly early this year. at least 3 species are listed on the EPS list.

the house is to be sold and the ponds removed. We have no licence to transport them, we have merely passed them on to someone whom we believe will give them the best care. and im not talking 7 or 8 animals. more like 1000 give or take a newt larvae or 300.

so if we were to take the legal route would it have taken too long? we have worked all summer collecting these amphibs from this property and each trip we collect at least 100 specimens.

the law is an ass.

my two cents.


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## Trice

I agree with you on that. Is pretty stupid slapping the new additions and expecting them to be enforced immediately.


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## Ssthisto

Luton Reptile Rescue said:


> We have been asked to collect a number of european species from 5 ponds in someones garden. the gentleman who started the collection died suddenly early this year. at least 3 species are listed on the EPS list.
> 
> the house is to be sold and the ponds removed.


Legally speaking? The ponds, with their protected inhabitants in situ, could not be removed or destroyed. This is covered under the "disturbing habitat" part of the law... 



> We have no licence to transport them, we have merely passed them on to someone whom we believe will give them the best care. and im not talking 7 or 8 animals. more like 1000 give or take a newt larvae or 300.


I hope the person who's taken them on has made preparations with regards to proving that the larvae/etc were captive bred - and that the adult animals have some sort of documentation as to origin. 

Yes, going the legal route could have taken weeks, months... and you know as well as I do that habitat be damned, the future house owner would probably still have destroyed the ponds and not thought anything of it.

Yes, the law IS an ass.


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## SiUK

I know we talked about it last night, but someone should consult a lawyer about where they stand and could it be taken to a high court ruling, it seems stupid to me, unbelievably stupid that they can suddenly bring in a law that effects the last 13 years, when for the last 13 years it hasnt been illegal to buy or sell these animals, they need to rethink the law and change it so that from now on, its the case, it makes me wonder what muppets even thought this law was a good idea, and technically is it even legal.


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## ratboy

taken a while to read this thoroughly Ssthisto.

Excellent article !!!


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## MissHayho

im confused - i have spur torts but all have a certificate so do i need to do ne thing?


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## Matt Harris

Legally speaking? The ponds, with their protected inhabitants in situ, could not be removed or destroyed. This is covered under the "disturbing habitat" part of the law... 

Just to correct this. Habitat protection only extends to species naturally occurring in the British Isles, so unless the pond species concerned are GCNs or Natterjacks, then you are OK to disturb the habitat. The 2007 amendment means that restriction of trade applies to species non-native to Britain, not just our native EPS's.

Lacerta (Zootoca) vivipara pannonica (Viviparous/Common Lizard).

Must admit, I've never seen this subspecies advertised for sale.

_I agree with you on that. Is pretty stupid slapping the new additions and expecting them to be enforced immediately._

To be fair, the amendments were consulted on in May of last year, and now that they have come in (15 months later), as I understand it you have 3 months 'grace' period. So it's not as if anything's happened suddenly.

_The new law requires proof without a shadow of a doubt (and it is up to you to make the proof if you are prosecuted)_

As with other threads, this isn't true. You would need only show the lawful origin of the specimen on the balance of probabilities - more than 50 % likelihood.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Narrs*

Hi Matt, 

Are you still part of NARRS?

I should imagine that you would be quite well informed of this act, so perhaps you can explain it to us in an article here, and help to clear up any misgivings.

Are you possibly a DEFRA employee or civil servant for South Wales, Cardiff?

If so please, as l have read most of your responses here as indeed your original postings on Livefood, unless there are two of you, in which l proffer my appology for the mix up. But as you can see there is some misgiving here concerning this , but if you are, then as said please explain it to us in a much more detailed layout?

Rory


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## Onissarle

Matt Harris said:


> Just to correct this. Habitat protection only extends to species naturally occurring in the British Isles, so unless the pond species concerned are GCNs or Natterjacks, then you are OK to disturb the habitat. The 2007 amendment means that restriction of trade applies to species non-native to Britain, not just our native EPS's.


That's very interesting, have you seen that in writing somewhere? If so, can you direct me to the relevant resources?



> Lacerta (Zootoca) vivipara pannonica (Viviparous/Common Lizard).
> 
> Must admit, I've never seen this subspecies advertised for sale.




I've seen it listed, though I'm sure it was illegally. If I'd been convinced they were legally captive bred I'd have bought them and been screwed now by lack of proof.



> To be fair, the amendments were consulted on in May of last year, and now that they have come in (15 months later), as I understand it you have 3 months 'grace' period. So it's not as if anything's happened suddenly.


Unfortunately, no effort was made to inform or consult the hundreds of thousands of keepers affected by the changes. The vast majority still don't know. Even shops selling these animals still don't know so no real effort was made to inform the industry either. The three month grace period is therefore a joke. People can't apply for licenses they don't know they need. I won't delve into how the licensing has been structured so it's essentially impossible for any private keeper to obtain a license for a specimen, live or dead, and the difficulties in even applying because I've already covered that elsewhere.



> As with other threads, this isn't true. You would need only show the lawful origin of the specimen on the balance of probabilities - more than 50 % likelihood.


I've replied to this in the 'Basic EPS' thread.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*And that.........*

................is the truth Matt.

You know this act, you posted last year on this act, you understand or appear to understand this act, you researched this act, you quite possibly have animals affected by this act.

But Matt - what response did 'you' get last year on Livefood?

Where have you seen it advertised?

How has DEFRA informed anybody about it?

How is Joey Bloggs going to know about it?

There is no press coverage, nothing.

So how do people find out about it, if it is not advertised?

This is not having a go at you, but a simple truth..................no one knows about EPS.

R


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## Testudo Man

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> ................is the truth Matt.
> 
> 
> This is not having a go at you, but a simple truth..................*no one knows about EPS.*
> 
> R


 
Thats it...theres your non offensive slogan right there, without resorting to use the word "bastard" (twice)...

Try something along these lines...

*No one knows about EPS?...*

*Because to know...you require ESP!...*

*Note-* The use of the word bastard (in there somewhere), is of course, optional : victory:...T.T.8)


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## Matt Harris

_But Matt - what response did 'you' get last year on Livefood?_

Not a lot to be honest (apart from a smiley hug from Marina!), people didn't really seem interested at the time.

_This is not having a go at you, but a simple truth..................no one knows about EPS._

True, but to be fair the function of organisations like DEFRA and JNCC is to implement legislation protecting species controlling trade, not to uphold the rights of petkeepers.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Valid Point*

Well pointed out Matt.
Regulation Body.

And now to a new hard hitting thread l feel!!

R


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## Nerys

> True, but to be fair the function of organisations like DEFRA and JNCC is to implement legislation protecting species controlling trade, not to uphold the rights of petkeepers.


do you not therefore feel Matt.. that it might just possibly have been a good idea to INFORM the trade?

the reptile shops i have spoken to so far, are painfully unaware of the EPS..

and tbh, none of us really argue that wild european animals do not need protection, in many many cases they do.

but, to be blunt, thats got sod all to do with the hundreds of thousands of animals already IN captivity, who are now threatened with death, becasue, as our stonger worded poster alludes, they, or we, cannot prove their parentage..

our problem lies not with protecting animals that need protection.. it lies with the implementation of law by what is pretty much the back door.. and this ONLY after defra have been fined by the EU for non compliance 13 flipping years ago.. a fine, that lets face it, defras kitty could do without absorbing..

or as i said on Livefoods earlier today... 

the EPS is unworkable, untenable, unjustifiable, indefensible, illogical and inhumane

sure its great for WILD animals, but it does nothing for the captive ones.

and what about all the animal charites and sancturys ? we had a lady in tears the other day on the phone as she went through her collection working out who might be up for the chop and who she may be able to keep..

sure, don't tell the keeper.. i mean who are we? a mere mess being scrapped of the legislative shoe it seems.. i mean.. no-one ever tells the individual anything do they, so why bother starting now.. those who sign it off dictate, and we just open wide and take it like a... opps i mean *accept it* .. right?

i would have said, seeing as this involves TRADE in species, that the least they would have done, would be inform the TRADE who trades some of those species. from speaking, personally, to reptile shop owners, i can tell you this is NOT the case.

and what allowance has been made for sanctuaries who have had animals gifted, or donated?

where is the allowance for people like a guy i know, who is the "on call wierd animal finds" guy to his local tescos? he has a few EPS species, who have turned up in grape vines, or boxes of veg, clearly they have nothing to show their parentage, so now that means, they have to be "donated to a museum" in a glass jar of pickling fluid?? or does tesco technically break the law by handling so called illegal animals??

how is that right???? its not! protecting the EU species, should mean protecting them ALL, captive and wild alike, and this is someting this act is clearly not doing.

and i still have not got a decent answer, as to which wally stuck 32 dormouse species on the list.. including 2 who have been extinct for 5000 or so years, one thats endemic to Japan, and another thats only ever been seen twice, in a forest park in china in 1985 ?? does the pen pusher who wrote the list not know basic zoological terms like "endemic" and "extinct" 

whoopie do, such a great law..little too late for the ones are only known from the fossil record tho.. don't you think?

EPS = unworkable, untenable, unjustifiable, indefensible, illogical and inhumane

Nerys


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## Nerys

new image...

i still find it laughable that they placed two extinct species on !!










N


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## Matt Harris

_*Originally Posted by Matt Harris *__**_
_*Just to correct this. Habitat protection only extends to species naturally occurring in the British Isles, so unless the pond species concerned are GCNs or Natterjacks, then you are OK to disturb the habitat. The 2007 amendment means that restriction of trade applies to species non-native to Britain, not just our native EPS's.*_

_*[That's very interesting, have you seen that in writing somewhere? If so, can you direct me to the relevant resources?*_



It’s there by omission...

Regulation 39 of the UK Habs Regs refers to *European Protected Species*

These are previously defined in Regulation 38 thus:-

_...species of animals listed in Annex IV(a) to the Habitats Directive whose *natural range includes any area in Great Britain* ..._

_References in these Regulations to a "European protected species" of animal are to any of those species._

The 2007 amendment doesn’t change Regulation 38, 

So, in the Old and New Regulation 39, the phrase “European Protected Species” refers only to species listed in Annex IVa whose natural range includes any area in GB. These are listed in UK Habs Regs Schedule 2.

However, Regulation 39(2), which deals with keeping, transporting, selling or exchanging animals, and which is the subject of this thread, doesn’t refer to “European Protected Species” defined above.

It refers directly to Annex IVa and all animals on it, thereby skipping out UK Habs Regs Schedule 2.

There are other amendments to Regulation 39 (which deals with protection of species and their habitats), but these only refer to “European Protected Species” as defined in Regulation 38, which isn’t changed.


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## Ally

Because of course normal* people are going to spot that immediatley and be perfectly able to understand and stay on the right side of the law...

*by normal I mean people who have not been trained to write or pick apart laws and contracts.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Matt*

Hi, 

I asked you this before, l am asking you again.

Are you the same Matt Harris that works for South Wales, Cardiff?

Are you still part of NARRS and also why do you include JCNN in one of your replies? Not really down to them is it?

You have a grasp of this legislation that the normal keeper does not, so in your own words explain the legislation, you seem to know it.

Rory


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## Nerys

so Matt.. 

who do you work for, or with, that helps you have such a good inside feel to the eps ??? 

just curious.. i don't know anyone who knows the ins and outs so well.. unless they actually work for defra.. and tbh half of defra are gloriously unaware of all the bits and bots

not saying you are a defra employee of course.. but.. well you have to wonder..

i'd like to know the sections and sub sections as well as you do, so if you are not a defra (or related) guy, then where do we all go to learn the ins and outs?

you are certainly not just the average Joe Bloggs keeper, so how _do_ the Joe Bloggs find out the things you have??

N


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## Snakes r grreat

Matt Harris said:


> _*Originally Posted by Matt Harris *__**_
> _*Just to correct this. Habitat protection only extends to species naturally occurring in the British Isles, so unless the pond species concerned are GCNs or Natterjacks, then you are OK to disturb the habitat. The 2007 amendment means that restriction of trade applies to species non-native to Britain, not just our native EPS's.*_
> 
> _*[That's very interesting, have you seen that in writing somewhere? If so, can you direct me to the relevant resources?*_
> 
> 
> 
> It’s there by omission...
> 
> Regulation 39 of the UK Habs Regs refers to *European Protected Species*
> 
> These are previously defined in Regulation 38 thus:-
> 
> _...species of animals listed in Annex IV(a) to the Habitats Directive whose *natural range includes any area in Great Britain* ..._
> 
> _References in these Regulations to a "European protected species" of animal are to any of those species._
> 
> The 2007 amendment doesn’t change Regulation 38,
> 
> So, in the Old and New Regulation 39, the phrase “European Protected Species” refers only to species listed in Annex IVa whose natural range includes any area in GB. These are listed in UK Habs Regs Schedule 2.
> 
> However, Regulation 39(2), which deals with keeping, transporting, selling or exchanging animals, and which is the subject of this thread, doesn’t refer to “European Protected Species” defined above.
> 
> It refers directly to Annex IVa and all animals on it, thereby skipping out UK Habs Regs Schedule 2.
> 
> There are other amendments to Regulation 39 (which deals with protection of species and their habitats), but these only refer to “European Protected Species” as defined in Regulation 38, which isn’t changed.


And for those of us who are thick, please explain that in simpleton terms.


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## Onissarle

Snakes r grreat said:


> And for those of us who are thick, please explain that in simpleton terms.


It means that the laws protecting wild animals only applies to animals under the EPS if those animals are native to the UK. Escaped or naturalised populations are not covered. 

So if there was a colony of wall lizards living wild near me, I could pick up a baseball bat and splat them because they're an invasive foreign species. Other than a bit of grumbling about potential animal cruelty nothing would happen. However, it would be illegal for me to save them from someone else or from development work by capturing them and housing them in captivity because they have lived wild and are therefore considered to be wild caught. The possession and transport laws still apply even if they are afforded no special protection against disturbance, harm or destruction of habitat because of their non-native status..


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## Matt Harris

Onissarle said:


> It means that the laws protecting wild animals only applies to animals under the EPS if those animals are native to the UK. Escaped or naturalised populations are not covered.
> 
> So if there was a colony of wall lizards living wild near me, I could pick up a baseball bat and splat them because they're an invasive foreign species. Other than a bit of grumbling about potential animal cruelty nothing would happen. However, it would be illegal for me to save them from someone else or from development work by capturing them and housing them in captivity because they have lived wild and are therefore considered to be wild caught. The possession and transport laws still apply even if they are afforded no special protection against disturbance, harm or destruction of habitat because of their non-native status..


That's it in a nutshell. But remember, it was illegal to have released them in the first place* under the WCA 1981, so in principle they shouldn't be there. There's no point in 2 laws replicating each other, which is why the Habs Regs 2007 amendment doesn't talk about this. In fact, a lot of this amendment details how replication of WCA 1981 by the original Habs regs 1994 is removed.

*If you want a discussion on whether Wall lizards, green lizards etc are native species, start a different thread!


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## Onissarle

Matt Harris said:


> That's it in a nutshell. But remember, it was illegal to have released them in the first place* under the WCA 1981, so in principle they shouldn't be there. There's no point in 2 laws replicating each other, which is why the Habs Regs 2007 amendment doesn't talk about this. In fact, a lot of this amendment details how replication of WCA 1981 by the original Habs regs 1994 is removed.
> 
> *If you want a discussion on whether Wall lizards, green lizards etc are native species, start a different thread!


I'm aware of the legalities about releasing non-vative species. It's an utterly irresponsible thing to do in the first place and personally, I would support the widespread culling of non-native species that are negatively impacting native ones. Like grey squirrels for example. 

I never suggested wall or green lizards were native. There's a world of difference between native and naturalised as I'm sure you know. I'm sorry if my response was unclear on that.


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## Ssthisto

Matt Harris said:


> That's it in a nutshell. But remember, it was illegal to have released them in the first place* under the WCA 1981, so in principle they shouldn't be there.


But given that they're trying to PROTECT European species, it's rather a mockery that you could *kill* naturalised populations of wall lizards but you can't *catch* some and take them home with you to *breed* them....


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## Snakes r grreat

Matt Harris said:


> That's it in a nutshell. But remember, it was illegal to have released them in the first place* under the WCA 1981, so in principle they shouldn't be there. There's no point in 2 laws replicating each other, which is why the Habs Regs 2007 amendment doesn't talk about this. In fact, a lot of this amendment details how replication of WCA 1981 by the original Habs regs 1994 is removed.
> 
> *If you want a discussion on whether Wall lizards, green lizards etc are native species, start a different thread!


What about colonies that may have formed through animals being released before 1981? I agree that non native species that destroy native wildlife should be removed, but how do you prove they were released after 1981?

Also how do you know we dont have some of those species native to the UK, and may always have been native to the UK, afterall, we constantly find species of animals never seen before.


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## Onissarle

Snakes r grreat said:


> What about colonies that may have formed through animals being released before 1981? I agree that non native species that destroy native wildlife should be removed, but how do you prove they were released after 1981?


You've missed the point a little there. Exactly when it became technically illegal to release non-native animals is of no relevance in terms of conservation. An invasive foreign species is still an invasive foreign species. Britain is an island nation and our ecosystem has evolved as such. When larger, more aggressive or hardier continental species get released, they often out-compete their native counterparts and drive them out of their native habitats. Squirrels are a good example. Red squirrels are native to the UK, grey squirrels are considered vermin. Red squirrels are now a rare site because grey squirrels have taken over a lot of their natural range and driven them out. With loss of habitat, numbers decline.

Things like wall lizards could compete with common and sand lizards for food and habitat, negatively impacting the wild numbers of the native species. There are all sorts of non-native species that have been dumped into the wild in this country over the years. Terrapins for one, when they get too big and snappy, people dump them in ponds. In some parts of the world American bullfrogs have become a serious destroyer of indiginous wildlife. Personally, I have no moral qualm about getting a shotgun and going out bullfrog hunting to preserve the native species. My attitude would only differ if the non-native species was endangered in its natural range, then there could be some middle ground or relocation program.



> Also how do you know we dont have some of those species native to the UK, and may always have been native to the UK, afterall, we constantly find species of animals never seen before.


When talking about sizeable, terrestrial vertebrates, you can be fairly sure. Especially when the distribution growth is invasive because that shows they aren't naturally balanced in the ecosystem, unless there has been a sharp decline in its natural predators, etc.


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## beansthewonderdog

Can I ask then, if I have rescued an escaped gecko that had found its way into the country via someone's luggage (and it's on that list) what am I supposed to do with it?


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## ratboy

beansthewonderdog said:


> Can I ask then, if I have rescued an escaped gecko that had found its way into the country via someone's luggage (and it's on that list) what am I supposed to do with it?


As you do not know whether the animal is WC or CB, by rights you should contact DEFRA and tell them. However, since it is now in your posession and they have no way of telling where it came from either, they are pretty unlikely to be able to tell you what to do with it.


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## beansthewonderdog

ratboy said:


> As you do not know whether the animal is WC or CB, by rights you should contact DEFRA and tell them. However, since it is now in your posession and they have no way of telling where it came from either, they are pretty unlikely to be able to tell you what to do with it.


I probably phrased that wrong. The gecko arrived in someone's luggage, it's not an escaped pet but a wild one.


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