# UK Spiders



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

A few weeks ago, I posted a thread on here, asking if anyone would be able to post me any large native spiders they find, and I would pay for the postage, etc.

I like to keep a range of native species, as and when possible.

Lol, my request brought a grand total of one offer, but even that didn't pan out.

So.

Now it's into March, if you can help, please add here, or PM me.

Cheers

Steve


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## macro junkie (Oct 27, 2007)

there wild..best to leave them like that imo 

why dont u go searching your self?if u go at the right time your find nursery spiders and orb spiders

heres what i come across last year

as for other large native species,i very ralrey come across them and i do alot of out door macro work.the large house spider i see now and then..never seen babys tho.


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

Go for a walk, you find loads!


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## Juggernaut (Aug 10, 2008)

fantastic pics as always macro junkie :notworthy:


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Don't you have enough animals already?

It does seem recently you've been getting a new one every few weeks - Normally I wouldn't mind, but theres been times when you've bordered on an almost casual disregard for the animals involved. 

The velvet worms were an example - I bought mine knowing my house was cool enough, and I still have mine. You bought yours knowing your house was too hot despite advice and they died. It seems that the thrill for you is in the acquisition rather than the keeping...and you've just bought wetas and huntsman spiders, I would have thought they would have been keeping you busy...


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## Ozgi (Jun 1, 2008)

There's a spider egg sac thingy on my garden gate, can't wait til they all hatch out! A big ball of spiders wouldn't normally appeal to me but they are kinda cute when they are tiny. lol.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

GRB said:


> Don't you have enough animals already?
> 
> It does seem recently you've been getting a new one every few weeks - Normally I wouldn't mind, but theres been times when you've bordered on an almost* casual disregard for the animals involved*.
> 
> The velvet worms were an example - I bought mine knowing my house was cool enough, and I still have mine. You bought yours knowing your house was too hot despite advice and they died. It seems that the thrill for you is in the acquisition rather than the keeping...and you've just bought wetas and huntsman spiders, I would have thought they would have been keeping you busy...


 
Casual disregard? *blinks*

Fella, I take* great* offence to that.

I might be many things, I do not have a 'casual disregard' for any living creature.

You wouldn't actually believe_ how_ inaccurate that statement is.

But since you are not so far from me, perhaps you can drop by one day, and see for yourself how well I care for ALL these creatures.

*Then you will KNOW, rather than making sweeping, and quite honestly inaccurate statements, on a message board*.

I happen to want to build up a small collection of native spiders.

I intend to go look myself, of course, it's just that there are, believe it or not, people out there who are prepared to help.

For those that do - great, I will appreciate it, and for those who do not, that is fine too.

I asked a question.

I did not ask for a rebuke, esp one that is an insult.


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

GRB that was harsh... Definately not needed and no doubt untrue! Things die, you can't help it sometimes. How can you tell someone on a forum 'don't you have enough animals already' what are you his mum??? He can keep what he wants to keep!

Hugs for Steve xx


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Becky said:


> GRB that was harsh... Definately not needed and no doubt untrue! Things die, you can't help it sometimes. How can you tell someone on a forum 'don't you have enough animals already' what are you his mum??? He can keep what he wants to keep!
> 
> Hugs for Steve xx


Thanks for that.:2thumb:

Couple of points, Becky.

First of, I never stated for sure that their demise was caused by over heating. To try to get the temps down, I would leave my bedroom window open in winter, I used ice packs at the rear of the tanks, I did all that I could. But they were W/C, and, of course, inverts die,_ esp_ if W/C.

So, that was not a bad effort from someone who (what was it again), 


"*casual disregard for the animals involved*."

Speaking of which, Grant, you have bought Camel Spiders in the past.

You KNOW_ they_ don't do well in captivity.

Why did you go ahead and buy them, then?

And they _didn't_ live all that long, did they? But no one comes on here, least of all me, and rebukes you, I have been nothing friendly to you over the months, and I reallly resent that remark.

Btw, as I type, I have my 8 yr old dog, asleep at my feet.

He was a rescue, ya know.

By me.

Someone had hurt him so bad, that he was blind and has permanent burns to his back. But he is happy, and I have given him a home, when no one else wanted to, because a dog with blindness, well, it takes extra care.

Again, not bad for someone with a 'disregard for animals'.


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

I don't agree with a lot of the things GRB posts but i don't go on and rip him apart in one paragraph...


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Becky said:


> I don't agree with a lot of the things GRB posts but i don't go on and rip him apart in one paragraph...


I don't agree with a lot of what he posts, either.

I have only ever been polite to the guy.

But he was out of order in his tone, therefore, I feel my response was apt.

: victory:


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

enlightenment said:


> Casual disregard? *blinks*
> 
> Fella, I take* great* offence to that.
> 
> ...





enlightenment said:


> Thanks for that.:2thumb:
> 
> Couple of points, Becky.
> 
> ...


 


Becky said:


> GRB that was harsh... Definately not needed and no doubt untrue! Things die, you can't help it sometimes.
> 
> Yes, very true. However, when you buy something knowing its specific care and then don't provide it, does that expunge any blame?
> 
> ...





Becky said:


> _I don't agree with a lot of the things GRB_ _posts _but i don't go on and rip him apart in one paragraph...


Heh, like what? Last discussion I remember where we differed in opinion was about habitat enrichment...or perhaps hybrid tarantulas (where you said hybrids didn't exist in the wild, and I disagreed on that point)...otherwise I think we rarely argue / discuss.


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

GRB said:


> Heh, like what? Last discussion I remember where we differed in opinion was about habitat enrichment...or perhaps hybrid tarantulas (where you said hybrids didn't exist in the wild, and I disagreed on that point)...otherwise I think we rarely argue / discuss.


That is because i choose not to post an answer...


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Becky said:


> That is because i choose not to post an answer...


I kind of wish you would, it makes for more interesting discussion.


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

No it makes for arguments! I've made enough enemies on this forum coz of innocent things ive posted, never mind something that is actually known to cause one lol


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

enlightenment said:


> I don't agree with a lot of what he posts, either.
> 
> I have only ever been polite to the guy.
> 
> ...


If you disagree, why ask for advice?


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Becky said:


> No it makes for arguments! I've made enough enemies on this forum coz of innocent things ive posted, never mind something that is actually known to cause one lol


lol, you shouldn't worry. I certainly don't hold a grudge over differences of opinion so long as they don't degenerate into name-slinging matches. I've had plenty slung my way already...often based upon innocent enough messages. 

I'm well aware of how hard it is to convey tone without body language, and how easy it is to come across like an arrogant tool - I just know my subject and get rather passionate...


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

_Thanks for that.:2thumb:

Couple of points, Becky.

First of, I never stated for sure that their demise was caused by over heating. Lets face it, it was. you stated the temps were routinely over 20C. _

_*Did I now? Well, here's the thing. With the window open, and the ice packs, I managed to get the temps as close as possible to what they wanted. How about that? How about the fact that I mentioned that the first one looked as if it had been eaten by the larger one? *_
_

To try to get the temps down, I would leave my bedroom window open in winter, I used ice packs at the rear of the tanks, I did all that I could. But they were W/C, and, of course, inverts die, esp if W/C.

I wouldn't say that they had an especially high chance of death because they were WC. What do you base that on? I received 5 adults, and now have 6, they are breeding. _

_*Well done. But here's the difference. If at some point in the future, we happen to buy the same invert, and your one dies before mine, which is inevitable at some point, then I will refrain from coming on and being so cocky about it. As for W/C, well, for a start, no one knows what age they are, when something is wild caught. No one knows if perhaps the creature is weaker in some way. Most people I know would agree with that.*_
_

So, that was not a bad effort from someone who (what was it again), 


"*casual disregard for the animals involved*." 

Of course it sounds bad when you take the "almost" out from in front of it. _

_*Why imply it at all, then? Either say it right out, or not at all? It is like saying, 'GRB, with the arrogant impression you give a lot of people here, you almost sound like the sort of guy that would hit a woman'. Almost. Happy with that?* _
_

Speaking of which, Grant, you have bought Camel Spiders in the past.

You KNOW they don't do well in captivity.

Why did you go ahead and buy them, then?

As you might remember, mine actually outlived yours, and most/all of the stock Lee sold from the same shipment. I bought them to test my husbandry, and succeeded as far as I'm concerned, in that I maintained my individual a good month or so longer than anybody else. _

_*You had a different species, and I used two sources to buy them. Apart from that, well done, you managed to keep your one's alive a bit longer than mine. You are truly my hero.*_
_

And they didn't live all that long, did they? But no one comes on here, least of all me, and rebukes you, I have been nothing friendly to you over the months, and I reallly resent that remark.

I haven't been unfriendly either. We don't always have to see eye to eye however to be friends. I'm not going to talk about the dog, because I didnt say you ALWAYs had a disregard. Just lately, some of your purchases have seemed very spur of the moment, and in some instances "ah well, I'll see how it goes". _

_*Well, you are wrong. I never have a disregard. I make mistakes. But never a disregard. And, btw, before I got the Weta and Huntsman, which I waited months on, I read up as much as I could, and communicated often with the supplier.*_
_

I don't, and won't, agree with people buying animals when they know they can't provide the conditions beforehand, and you did in that case. A few of us routinely emphasised the temperature requirements of them but you risked it. I can't tell you what to buy or not, but I had hoped you might have been disuaded from buying them based upon your knowledge that your house was too warm. 

I wasn't out to destroy you personally, but I'm also not going to say I agree with such a rate of animal collection. We can agree to disagree if you prefer _

_*What 'rate' would be acceptable for you?*_

_*Please let us all know, and we can euthenise those that are over that limit.*_


_
_


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

GRB said:


> If you disagree, why ask for advice?


Listen, I know you went to St Andrew's, therefore, I am sure they taught you comprehension skills.

I wasn't asking for advice here.

Capiche?


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Hahah, well looks like I've hit a nerve centre. 

Friendly friendly when I'm agreeing with you, mortal enemies when I don't. 

Listen, if nothing else I am consistant, so I won't suddenly pretend I agree with you ranting away, and I always vaguely hope that people will at least respect that I straight talk when I need to. 

I've never pretended that I dont think wild animals are best off in the wild: yes, I own foriegn animals. 

I don't collect UK animals and box them up indoors. They are better off outdoors, an opinion shared by more than just myself. 

If you really do care about UK spiders, then plant some vegetation that encourages the spread and colonisation of rare Scottish species. The other benefit is that anything you do to help them will undoubtably help other invertebrates and you'll get to see them more routinely in any private space. 

Just to clarify one other thing: did you do any research on temperature preferences for UK spiders? I don't doubt that you do care, but you can care and be ignorant to factors such as low temperature requirements or air flow.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

GRB said:


> Hahah, well looks like I've hit a nerve centre.
> Friendly friendly when I'm agreeing with you, mortal enemies when I don't.
> .


Hardly.

Different opinions are fine.

That is *not* what this is about.

I feel you were rude and harsh. (As did Becky)

Not for the first time, although, sure, it is the first time against me.

So, of course I am going to defend myself.

See ya


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

enlightenment said:


> Hardly.
> 
> Different opinions are fine.
> 
> ...


 
Steve,

My tone was curt but succinct. Remember I don't have the benefit of body language here...

Secondly: you post here often. Usually it reads "I want this....". Myself and a few others have commented on how you post like crazy until you get something, then after a few days the thread disapears and nothing else is heard about it. It does come across like you like to acquire arthropods more than you enjoy looking after them. 

If you are offended, then so be it. I mearly posted an opinion which I knew at the time would piss you off, but I felt it needed to be said. 

You don't _need_ UK spiders. If you have a garden you will see plenty. They thrive outdoors, they don't thrive indoors. What do you want from me - Encouragement to do things I don't agree with? 

"Yeah sure, take some random UK spiders without doing much research. I'm sure 50% of will survive a while under stressed conditions because your house is too hot or you dont provide enough air flow, or space or whatever".


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

GRB said:


> Steve,
> 
> My tone was curt but succinct
> 
> ...


 
*No one needs inverts of any kind.*

*Ever kept something wild caught?*

*Yes?*

*Why?*

*You don't need it, do you.....*


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## daz30347 (Aug 30, 2007)

Hey mate,

Ignore silly arguements, no need for it.

ANYWAY
Thought i wuld post some pics of the natives i keep.
Common House Spider
























Lycosa possibly?


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

These look sublime, and your set up seems excellent.

What behaviours have you noticed, in eating, etc?

Have you found that they have done well captive?

Thanks

Steve


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## daz30347 (Aug 30, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> These look sublime, and your set up seems excellent.
> 
> What behaviours have you noticed, in eating, etc?
> 
> ...


 Hi,
cheers for the compliment.
The Wolf spider seem to be ok living communaly, which is a first for me.
the wolf spiders seem to almost share food, i put in a dead cricket every day, and they dont fight at all.
not seen the house spider eat, but the dead cricket is left as just skin, so yeah, it is eating.
they seem to be adapting fine to captivity, just need to be kept cool. and lots ventilation helps imo


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

daz30347 said:


> Hi,
> cheers for the compliment.
> *The Wolf spider seem to be ok living communaly*, which is a first for me.
> the wolf spiders seem to almost share food, i put in a dead cricket every day, and they dont fight at all.
> ...


From what I gather, there are various species of spider that do.

I was unaware of that until a while ago, mate.

Clearly, as spiders were evolving, a certain number developed to live this way, obviously because it means they are less likely to be picked off by predators, and it also means they increase_ their_ odds of catching prey.

It would be in their genetic interests to live as a unit, as it were, rather than solitary, as most do.

Those would be my observations, anyway.

Thanks

Steve


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## daz30347 (Aug 30, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> From what I gather, there are various species of spider that do.
> 
> I was unaware of that until a while ago, mate.
> 
> ...


 Yup, seems logical
hope to get hold of some false widows in the near future, along with jumping spiders and crab spiders.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

daz30347 said:


> Yup, seems logical
> hope to get hold of some false widows in the near future, along with jumping spiders and crab spiders.


Equally, while Praying Mantids are generally _v _solitary, you have examples of species that do live as a colony, providing there is sufficient food.

Then you have species of what we would usually think of as _social_ insects, that are solitary. There are species of wasp for example that I am sure live a solitary life.

Interesting stuff..


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## macro junkie (Oct 27, 2007)

daz30347 said:


>


they looks like baby wolf spiders?


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Btw, Dazz, have you read about the so named 'Fishing Spider', that Vir Cheesman had on her site. That sounded interesting.

Sits at the edge of water, catching it's prey.


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## daz30347 (Aug 30, 2007)

Macro junkie, cheers for veryfying this, thought they were but needed someone with knowledge of them to verifie.


Enlightenment.
Yup, i have seen them very interested, but not sure if i can get some cash together.
may have £20 left over from a pending sale, so will let you know.
John


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## daz30347 (Aug 30, 2007)

Just checked on her site, and they are sold out


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Hmmmmmmm i agree with perhaps keeping a false widow spid or something like that but why housespiders??? You see plenty around ur home so why the need 2 trap one in an artificial set up??

Sorry but i agree with GRB on this one.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

daz30347 said:


> Just checked on her site, and they are sold out


I know!

I just looked as well.

Perhaps worth an e mail to her, and Martin Goss is always worth a shout, and Lee at the SS?

Among all of them, one will be able to source it for ya.

: victory:


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

selina20 said:


> Hmmmmmmm i agree with perhaps keeping a false widow spid or something like that but why housespiders???


You agree with keeping one species of native spider and not another?


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## DannyLeigh (Aug 4, 2008)

enlightenment said:


> You agree with keeping one species of native spider and not another?


I thought exactly the same thing, you find both "House spiders" and False Widows in houses! :lol2:


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## daz30347 (Aug 30, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> You agree with keeping one species of native spider and not another?


 Thinking the same myself,
Selina, not gonna argue with ya, all a matter of opinion, : victory:
i think keeping them encourages us to lose the fear as with Tarantulas, this one will be released next moult.
John


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## Ozgi (Jun 1, 2008)

As long as you give em the environment they require what's the difference between keeping house spiders and keeping T's?


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Ozgi said:


> As long as you give em the environment they require* what's the difference between keeping house spiders and keeping T's*?


Ozgi, the answer to your question is 'nothing'.

Indeed, if we are going to go all bloody ALF, then of the two, keeping an exotic species is probably the bigger 'sin'.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

enlightenment said:


> You agree with keeping one species of native spider and not another?


Only if some research is guna be done otherwise leave them there. Afterall we are all guna be in someways hypocritical as all our pets were at one point wild.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

selina20 said:


> Only if some research is guna be done otherwise leave them there. Afterall we are all guna be in someways hypocritical as all our pets were at one point wild.


No.

That's not what we ... doesn't matter.

:whistling2:


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

i dont understand? why only if research is to be done....i beleive he keeps that spider in captivity because he likes to and gets enjoyment from it...hence being a pet...and if its legal and they can thrive then why not.

why keep a G. rosea when you can keep a Cyriopagopus sp instead...simple because you want to. just peoples preferances and opinions at the end of the day.

some great pictures by the way.
If anyway is down stoke, then there more than welcome to come on the allotoments and our wildlife garden..many many species around and very easy to find.

cheers


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Ok, I'll ignore the needless pedantry and snide comments. 

Selina: Thanks. It is often hard to disagree on this forum, and I expect most people to just go with the flow. 

Steve:

There is a difference in keeping T's and native spiders. The thing that annoys me is that your grasp of this issue is so narrow. It's purely centred on you, and your "right" to do as you please. Before you quote this and take it out of context, take a deep breath and actually read what I write below:

There's ~450 species of UK spider. A huge number are extremely localised to small areas, and there are also many that are extremely rare or dying out. 

There are people on this forum who are equally uninformed about UK spiders as yourself, so when you ask "Can you send me spiders?" who knows what you will get. You won't know either, because from your posts I garner you know only a few common species. 

So, you ask for spiders, people send them to you. In the process, habitat is disturbed, potentially rare spiders are hassled, and there is loss of breeding adults or juveniles. Hell, someone might even be uninformed enough to send you _Dolomedes_ or _Eresus_, which is illegal to even collect. 

How will they know if they collect the commonplace _Marpissa muscosa_ or the extremely rare _Sitticus distinguendus? _You should find both in Kent and essex, and superficially they look similar if you don't know much about UK spiders. 

Further to this, what reserach did you actually carry out? Ever read the temperature tolerance papers of British spiders done by Cloudsley-Thomson? They were interesting, turns out native spiders prefer cool temperatures :gasp:. 

Then again, if you only go on what _you_ know, then who's fault is it when your spiders suffer significantly higher mortality at 22C compared to 14C?

The trouble I have with this is that a) you made my text bold out of context (by omitting the "you border on an almost casual disregard", which reads very differently to "you have casual disregard")

b) You assume I make these spurious comments based solely on some bizarre emotional involvement solely designed to piss you off. I knew you would be angry: That does not suggest I deliberately intended to piss you off for the fun of it. Sometimes people say things others dont like because they believe strongly enough in what they are saying. 

c) You display this attitude of "it's my RIGHT to have xxxx", when it's not. At the end of it, the animals you so vehemently argue that you care about do better in the wild. Ergo, if you cared you would keep them outside. 

It's not even about the spiders solely either: trampling affects other animals, removing spiders removes prey items for other animals like brids etc etc. Even removing a single adult female could potentially reduce offspring for the next season...and not just in spiders. The animals that eat the spiderlings suffer too. 

To go back to my initial point: Tarantulas are different. Once they are in this country, it's too late, and we can but hope that habitat disturbance was minimal and that more rare species end up in the hands of experienced keepers. 

In the UK, we can actually do something about the loss of spider diversity, and most of it is just going to be educating people who don't know or don't care enough to see the wider issues. Collecting spiders does not just remove a couple with no further impacts, especially when people here can barely identify families of british spiders let alone which _species_ are rare.

It's been said before, and I stand by it: they are better off outside (I include house spiders even if they do turn up in houses) where everyone can enjoy them, and they can contribute to our already struggling ecosystems.


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

I don't agree with keeping any UK spiders in captivity anyway, as GRB says some are protected. Quite happy seeing them in my garden  

I try to avoid WC t's in my collection too for the record


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## Ozgi (Jun 1, 2008)

GRB said:


> To go back to my initial point: Tarantulas are different. Once they are in this country, it's too late, and we can but hope that habitat disturbance was minimal and that more rare species end up in the hands of experienced keepers.


 
But surely by buying them you are contributing to any habitat destruction that occurs during their collection? It's sort of saying "I care about the wildlife/habitat in this country, but meh, it happens in other countries nothing I can do about it". I'm not really on either side here, there are good points to both sides of the argument/debate.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Ozgi said:


> But surely by buying them you are contributing to any habitat destruction that occurs during their collection? It's sort of saying "I care about the wildlife/habitat in this country, but meh, it happens in other countries nothing I can do about it". I'm not really on either side here, there are good points to both sides of the argument/debate.


It could be argued that way. 

However, in some cases you could argue that by placing wealth on animals you help their conservation by attaching a value in an otherwise worthless commodity. CB is pretty much useless for actually conserving them in the wild, but if the animals are at least seen as a tradable commodity, then it can sometimes persuade countries to protect them as a managable resource. Yes, I agree that supply/demand is complicated and I guess the best way to put it is that we have to do _some_ damage to protect them, if that makes sense. 

I'm not actually against people owning pets. However, I feel that it should be a weighty consideration, with a decent level of research first. Some people will disagree, but I feel far too many people are buying/trading animals that they simply don't know anything about - or worse, they think they know a detailed amount yet they really know very little. 

The other side to the point is that I can actually do things in this country.

Anyway, I think this is digressing rather somewhat from the whole issue. I basically said I don't think people should keep UK spiders, and others have shared similar sentiments.


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

How about meeting in the middle?

I have a few native species in my garden, especially in the shed and eaves etc, I haven't collected them, but I do observe them and every now and then drop them an appropriately sized cricket etc, that way you can observe nearly every behaviour of the spider but leave it free to roam or breed etc in it's natural environment.

Try it, if you enjoy it like I do then excellent, if you don't then at least you gave it a shot.

I personally have no issue with WC arachnids being in my collection but that is my personal preference and stems from a lot of my contacts having access to WC animals, but that said I do buy CB animals also and breed my own species.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

GRB said:


> I basically said I don't think people should keep UK spiders.....


 
....if that is your view, you are entitled to it. Some would agree with you, some would not agree with you. Either way, that view would be fine. _It was all the other stuff that I objected to_. 

I could point out the plethora of inconsistancies with a lot of what you have written, but out of fairness to the rest of the members here, I don't want to drag this daftness out for any longer than is needed.

Anyway, on a seperate matter, thanks to those that* have* been in touch, and there was a nice little surprise for me when I woke today - one of my huntsman had a totally successful moult!

:2thumb:


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> Anyway, on a seperate matter, thanks to those that* have* been in touch, and there was a nice little surprise for me when I woke today - one of my huntsman had a totally successful moult!
> 
> :2thumb:


Obviously because you don't care for it properly :whistling2:


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## slang (May 20, 2007)

Sorry but as a foreigner on this forum i can't help but feeling that there is a certain arrogance in some of these statements. 
The "exotic" pets that people keep here are descendants of wild collected animals, not necessarily any less rare then your local spiders. Why was it ok to collect there and not in Britain. 
I think that people need to use the same common sense as we need to use when wild collecting in "exotic locations".
As long as you are sure what you are collecting, are sure that the animal is not exceptionally rare or protected, don't collect large numbers and are sure that you are able to take care of them then i see no problem. 
I currently live in Britain and have kept and bred steatoda grossa in the past. i collected them from my garage. Again i was sure that this animal was not protected, i was sure that the numbers that i was taken werent going to cause an issue and i was sure that i was able to simulate the enviroment they live in (my garage and my house). I dont thing i have done unrepairable damage to britains wildlife.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Becky said:


> Obviously because you don't care for it properly :whistling2:


 
What happened was that when I spent three weeks asking Martin Goss questions, back and forth, I eventually asked him to save on postage, by just sticking the spider in an envelope.

I mean, who needs the tub, right?

Okay, it was a little squished when I got it, but I soon inflated it again.

I am well pissed off that it has shed, and that the other has settled in well and is eating well, despite my best efforts to ensure that they died as soon as possible.

:whistling2:


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

slang said:


> Sorry but as a foreigner on this forum i can't help but feeling that there is a certain arrogance in some of these statements.
> The "exotic" pets that people keep here are descendants of wild collected animals, not necessarily any less rare then your local spiders. Why was it ok to collect there and not in Britain.
> I think that people need to use the same common sense as we need to use when wild collecting in "exotic locations".
> As long as you are sure what you are collecting, are sure that the animal is not exceptionally rare or protected, don't collect large numbers and are sure that you are able to take care of them then i see no problem.
> I currently live in Britain and have kept and bred steatoda grossa in the past. i collected them from my garage. Again i was sure that this animal was not protected, i was sure that the numbers that i was taken werent going to cause an issue and i was sure that i was able to simulate the enviroment they live in (my garage and my house). I dont thing i have done unrepairable damage to britains wildlife.


 
*Applause*


Common sense breaks out alert.

:no1:


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## tescos (Mar 9, 2009)

slang said:


> Sorry but as a foreigner on this forum i can't help but feeling that there is a certain arrogance in some of these statements.
> The "exotic" pets that people keep here are descendants of wild collected ........................


etc etc (no need to repost the whole thing)

As a newbe to this, I would just like to say that your post of common sence has just spoiled what was a most amuseing thread!:lol2:
Cheers
Chris


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## slang (May 20, 2007)

tescos said:


> etc etc (no need to repost the whole thing)
> 
> As a newbe to this, I would just like to say that your post of common sence has just spoiled what was a most amuseing thread!:lol2:
> Cheers
> Chris


:lol2: sorry am i spoiling the fun again


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

My outhouse is absoulutely full of large, small, dead, alive, and all sorts of species...


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## The T Lord (Mar 28, 2009)

Joe1507 said:


> My outhouse is absoulutely full of large, small, dead, alive, and all sorts of species...


 Any Fasle Widows?


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## JUJU (Aug 16, 2007)

I was going to ask the exact same question or S Florentina's lol


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

Doubt it... Ill have alook...

What you looking for specifically...

God I hate most house spdiers yet I love tarantulas Lol


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

BTW, ive seen alot more eggsacks then I have of spiders... Would you want these?


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

I see alot of the following...

Mouse Spiders - Scotophaeus blackwalli - UK Safari
Daddy Long Legs Spiders - Pholcus phalangioides - UK Safari
Woodlouse Spiders - Dysera crocata - Occasionaly seen
Tube Web Spider - Segestria florentina - UK Safari - Occasionaly seen
Lace Webbed Spiders - Amaurobius fenestralis - Amaurobius similis - UK Safari - Occasionally seen.


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## TEENY (Jan 4, 2008)

What sort of uk spiders and what size ??? I am gardening today so i will have a peep matey


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

I have a load of Dolomedes in my garden, they get to a cracking size, and the females get well agressive!!

And i keep water spiders too, great little animals!!!

Ben


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## C_Strike (Feb 20, 2007)

Ben W said:


> I have a load of Dolomedes in my garden, they get to a cracking size, and the females get well agressive!!
> 
> And i keep water spiders too, great little animals!!!
> 
> Ben


You mean, your keeping the protected species then?:whistling2:


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Ben W said:


> I have a load of Dolomedes in my garden, they get to a cracking size, and the females get well agressive!!
> 
> And i keep water spiders too, great little animals!!!
> 
> Ben


If you are keeping _Dolomedes fimbriatus_, you are actually breaking the law.


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## macro junkie (Oct 27, 2007)

Theres plenty of culture spiders for sale on the web ect,theres no need to be taken them from the wild.I strongly disagree with this.I dont like people selling wild caught ooths either..thats also wrong! your messing with nature.surely its much more interesting to watch the spider in the wild than to have it imprisoned in a tub or tank.


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

Sorry, im pretty sure i said i have dolomedes in my garden.
And last time i looked dolomedes fimbriatus wasnt protected but dolomedes plantarius is.

Ben


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Ben W said:


> Sorry, im pretty sure i said i have dolomedes in my garden.
> And last time i looked dolomedes fimbriatus wasnt protected but dolomedes plantarius is.
> 
> Ben


Hmmm, perhaps I have gotten the two mixed up - both are fairly rare, on reflection I think it is _plantarius_ that is protected...

Either way, I prefer to leave spiders outside where I can see them in chance encounters acting normally.


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

Would you be interested in house spiders aswell?


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

Just out of interest, are you keeping them as pets, will you keep them forever or just for a period of time or...?


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

GRB said:


> If you are keeping _Dolomedes fimbriatus_, you are actually breaking the law.


I'm personally not, however, I would love to the look on the face of the judge, if the police presented ownership of a small UK spider, as a case worthy of a hearing! I would_ love_ to see it though....

:rotfl:


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Joe1507 said:


> Would you be interested in house spiders aswell?


Yes, I managed to get a reasonable one that other day, but with this being a flat, I don't get _many_ coming in.

I have kept some before, a time ago, and I kept some to look at, and some to study I guess, and others I kept for a time, and released back into a decent environment.

Thanks

: victory:


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

I Really like Woodlouse spiders, Im high considering keeping some


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## JUJU (Aug 16, 2007)

Everyone likes the Woodlouse spiders, I'm still in search of one even just to look at lol. They are gonna gain more popularity than T's soon :notworthy:


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## The T Lord (Mar 28, 2009)

JUJU said:


> Everyone likes the Woodlouse spiders, I'm still in search of one even just to look at lol. They are gonna gain more popularity than T's soon :notworthy:


 :lol2: i could breed some and make a killing :whistling2:
Not really, i see a few round my garden, wouldn't risk taking a few to breed for them all to die :gasp:
John


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

Ive seen quite a few in my garden


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

Im trying to get enlightenment some to go with his order


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Joe1507 said:


> Im trying to get enlightenment some to go with his order


They are fairly common, if you know where to look they are easy to find.

Don't really agree with people traipsing about outdoors and collecting UK spiders tbh. Just leave them where they are; how do you know the population down by you is stable enough to resist your poaching?


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

He probably doesn't, but could hazard a guess that sending a few spiders wouldn't then lead to the end of all native species, as we know it!



:lol2:


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

I would feel ridiculous if once Ive sent you yours they become extinct...

I looked in an area full of woodlouse, no woodlouse spider, got you a nice sized house spider,


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

enlightenment said:


> He probably doesn't, but could hazard a guess that sending a few spiders wouldn't then lead to the end of all native species, as we know it!
> 
> 
> 
> :lol2:


It can result in _localised_ extinction however. It can take many decades for spiders with lower dispersal rates to re-colonise areas, assuming that they get the chance to recolonise in the first place.

[edit] In fact, if you can't find them, then what makes you think you will know how to care for them correctly anyway? Correct care conditions stem from correctly observing them _in situ_.


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

Its only my garden and itll only be a few im sure itll be fine, my garden is very small btw


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Joe1507 said:


> Its only my garden and itll only be a few im sure itll be fine, my garden is very small btw


There's a theory in Ecology called the "Tragedy of the Commons" and I think it applies here well:

Basically, its the simple rule that a common "resource" will always undoubtedly tend towards being over-exploited by a community, because each individual will use as much as they "need" or more, and assume that the because their own impact is small, the impacts of others will also have no significant effect.

If everyone goes out and collects _Dysdera, _from sites where the abundance is NOT already known, then how can anyone assess the resiliance of the existing population? Because of this, I can never really agree with people collecting all but the most widespread of UK species, especially when it is simply a "I want" rather than any particular need for specimens. 

Another facet is that, although unlikely, you may collect _Dysdera erthyrina_, which is far less common and almost impossible to tell apart from _D.crocata_. It is entirely possible to locally eliminate this species by removing only a few adult specimens. 

IMO, if you can't find the species for yourself, when it is known to a) be almost ubiquitous, and b) is _known_ to occur in your area, then what right do you have to ask others to send it to you? What confidence will you have in your ability to successfully maintain this animal?


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

Oh ok I see what your saying, I dont think anyone eles around here collects spiders...


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Joe1507 said:


> Oh ok I see what your saying, I dont think anyone eles around here collects spiders...


I'm only suggesting that people, in general terms, consider the wider implications of what they do. I can't actually stop anyone collecting _Dysdera_ or any other spider, but I'd prefer people didn't just for the sake of it.

Populations already exist with specific pressures - predation, disease, parasites, resource competition, other mortality, etc. 

In many cases, removing a few adults for a short period won't seriously affect the species abundance. It might lower the number of reproductive adults in a local area, and reduce subsequent offspring. If this keeps happening however, it can start to reduce the population over many years and the effects can be compounded with increasing collection effort. 

There's also a huge difference between assuming no-one else is collecting and knowing that no one else is collecting. However, in this case it's probably fairy true, providing people don't discover any inherent value to these spiders. 

The other facet to this is the ability to care for these animals. Everyone assumes they are just "Woodlice spiders" and you feed them woodlice and all will be ok. 

There's a paper by Cooke (1965) which examines the feeding ecology of Dydera, amongst other issues. In lab conditions (hence captivity), most woodlice are actually not taken. In other cases, it is specific species only that are consumed. WHilst there is certainly a specific trend for them to capture woodlice, in the Lab there was not a preference for woodlice over other slow moving arthropods.

Another interesting issue is that their normal feeding ecology is to capture prey and then spin a silken cocoon, where they remain for up to a month. 

There's a paper by Rezac in last years BAS newsletter that suggests they have varied stratagies to overcome woodlice, but it too points out another aspect of their behaviour. Besides having varied stratagies, it also mentions the fairly strict nocturnal habits of the species, which normally rests all day in a silken cocoon before emerging at night. 

WHen you list these behaviours, I'm actually surprised anyone wants one as a pet; cryptic, burrowing, strictly nocturnal and possibly a fussy eater. Add to this the potential for a maximum tolerated temperature and you can see why I am reluctant to encourage people to go and collect this species. 

References:

Rezac, M. (2008 ) Oniscophagus _Dysdera _spiders (Araneae: Dysderidae) use Three capturing tactics to overcome woodlouse armour. _British Arachnological Society Newlestter, 113: 11-13. _


Cooke J A L. (1965) A Contribution to the Biology of the British Spiders belonging to the Genus Dysdera._Oikos, 16: 20-25_

_http://www.jstor.org/stable/3564861 _


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

Just on the bit you said as to why anyone would want a woodlouse spider, I would want one but I wouldnt keep one because a) my mum has a horrendous phobia of spidders and 2) like u said its cryptic etc


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Joe1507 said:


> Just on the bit you said as to why anyone would want a woodlouse spider, I would want one but I wouldnt keep one because a) my mum has a horrendous phobia of spidders and 2) like u said its cryptic etc


Why would you want one then? That makes no sense. 

You want it but you wouldn't keep it? I can't see how one comes without the other, unless you mean you'd simply want to observe one outside.


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

Did they arrive ok?


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