# Important - north hertfordshire county council



## PawsForThought (Sep 7, 2007)

We have just received this email from Peregrine Livefoods



> Hello,
> 
> If you run a shop in the North Hertfordshire County Council area and sell Reptiles (or Dogs and Cats) then the council will shortly changing its policy to prohibit you from doing so. The council currently operates a policy of “discouraging” the selling of Reptiles but on Thursday night will take a vote to change this policy and prohibit selling of Reptiles from shops that they issue a pet shop license to. This decision is based on fears that good reptile welfare cannot be achieved, which we know is not true.
> 
> ...


We obviously aren't in this area though very concerned about what this may mean for the reptile hobby in the UK.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

I think if anyone lives is this area you should go into your local petshop and make them aware of the situation - even if they dont sell reptiles. From what i can make of the message it seems Repta need inviting before they can turn up to put our (the reptile keepers of the UK) point across! 

So if you live in the area go rattle your local pet shop and ask them to call in the A-team! Or chris Newman. 

Hopefully someone from REPTA will post to clarify the situation.


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## Tung Chung (Apr 10, 2009)

Pretty concerning if this is true and somewhat heavy handed.

Can't see the vote being passed though


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## maddragon29 (Oct 16, 2008)

I can understand where they are coming from tbh.... however it's a bit harsh to stop EVERYONE from selling.


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## Golgarth (Aug 27, 2008)

That's ridiculous. Wonder who is behind that one.


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## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

Golgarth said:


> That's ridiculous. Wonder who is behind that one.


Give you 3 guesses but imagine you'll only need 1.

Sounds very interesting, something id like to hear more about. By prohibiting the legal sale of reptiles, they're just going to drive it underground and thats when real problems will arise.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

_I only found out about this proposal on Monday morning, I immediately wrote to the Council and below is there reply._ 


Mr Newman

The Chairman has agreed to allow you a maximum of 5 minutes to present your case to the Committee on Thursday evening. There will be a number of other speakers (kennel and cattery owners), and they will also be limited to 5 minutes each.

Thanks.

Ian Gourlay

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: 02 November 2009 11:38
To: Ian Gourlay
Subject: Licensing & Appeals Committee meeting 5th November at 7:30pm.

Dear Sir,

My name is Chris Newman and I am chairman of REPTA [Reptile & Exotic Pet Trade Associate]. I have this morning been forward details of a Licensing & Appeals Committee meeting to take place on the 5th November at 7:30pm.

I am very disturbed at the item listed below, i.e. the proposed prohibition on the sale of reptiles:

Licensing & Appeals (5.11.09)

5.1.4 Historically, the Council have actively discouraged the sale
of reptiles, puppies and kittens for welfare reasons. With the added emphasis on animal welfare provided by the Animal Welfare Act 2006, the Council will now prohibit the sale of reptiles, puppies and kittens by way of license conditions.


Prohibiting the sale of reptiles on 'welfare' grounds is in direct conflict with all available scientific evidence, it may be of benefit to the Council to refer to the governments scientific advisor on animal welfare, the Companion Animal Welfare Councils report: 

REPORT ON THE WELFARE OF NON-DOMESTICATED ANIMALS KEPT FOR COMPANIONSHIP http://www.cawc.org.uk/sites/default/files/CAWCRepNDA.pdf

This was published 2003 and in essence concluded that some reptiles are easier to keep to high welfare than some breeds of dogs!

Indeed in the UK today there are more reptiles kept as pets, as opposed to dogs. In 2008 the reptile industry was valued at over £100m. The proposal by the Council would have direct effects on several of our members and I would therefore welcome the opportunity to submit a report to the Licensing Committee opposing the proposed ban. Indeed if desirable I would be happy to attend this meeting to advocate on behalf of the trade.

I look forward to you reply.

Best regards,
Chris Newman
REPTA


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## PawsForThought (Sep 7, 2007)

GO CHRIS! :notworthy:

Best of luck to you! : victory:


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## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

Excellent. Im glad they've given you a chance to get your side across.


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## Jim_Fear (Oct 26, 2008)

So tonight is the night for this eh? Chris, I hope it went well!


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## serpentsupplies (Sep 4, 2009)

yeah , whgat is the usually deliberation time for these sorts of things?


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

With regards to last night’s meeting of North Hertfordshire District Council Licensing Committee at which they proposed a ban the sales of reptiles from pet shops, that proposal was immediately withdrawn after the presentations, which is good news.

Below is the oral and written submission.

Chris 


Mr Chairman thank you for allowing me to speak, I fully appreciate the busy schedule for this evening so I will be brief.

My name is Chris Newman, I am a consultant to the Reptile & Exotic Pet Trade Association, a position I have held for the past five years. My unpaid job is chairman of the Federation of British Herpetologists, which represents private keepers of reptiles and amphibians - a position I have held for the past ten years.

I have kept reptiles since the age of 5, a total of 45 years. I have been involved with the Animal Welfare Act since its inception; I chaired the government Working Group on Pet Fairs/Shows. I also sat on the Pet Vending Group, and the group that endeavoured to defined ‘welfare’. Additionally, I sit on many governmental and non-governmental committees that deal with reptile related issues be these welfare or conservation. 

I am surprised, and not a little disappointed, that a forward thinking and progressive body such as North Hertfordshire District Council should come forward with such an ill-considered an outdated proposal as to prohibit pet shops to sell reptiles. I would question if the Council even has the legal power to do so! 

Notwithstanding this, should the Council choose to enact the proposed ban on the sale of reptiles through pet shops, that decision would be challengeable by means of Judicial Review. I have know doubt such a challenge would be made, and I have absolutely no doubt what the outcome of such a challenge would be.

Clearly the proposal to ban sales is a decision not based on science, or even on best available evidence, I can only conclude it is based on prejudice or discrimination – neither of which are acceptable in a modern society. 

Reptiles have been the fastest growing sector of the pet industry for the past two decades. I have provided the committee with a brief fact sheet relating to reptiles, but let me just highlighting one of the points. 

This is a paragraph taken from a report published by the Companion Animal Welfare Council [CAWC] back in 2003. CAWC being the formal advisor to government on companion animal welfare matters:

‘……it may be easier to keep some non-domesticated species to high welfare standards than some that are domesticated. Thus, meeting all the requirements - space, dietary, social, thermal, and so on - of a small, hardy, reptile may be more readily achievable for many people than adequately fulfilling all the needs of some breeds of dog’ 

It is very important when choosing a pet the perspective owner is able to make an informed choice as to suitability of species. Reptiles are the first choice for many families with allergy sufferers, and also for those people who work or are absent from home for periods which would make mammals or birds unsuitable. 

Increasingly reptiles are also the choice for pet owners who care for the environment and native ecology, both of which suffer the ravages of what are perceived as more domesticated pets such as cats and dogs. 

I think it would be utterly inappropriate, not to say highly discriminatory to ban sales of animals which are the first choice for responsible and well informed pet keeper, this point is reflected in the extremely low numbers of these animals which fall into the hands of rescue centres.

On this occasion I hope common sense will prevail and pet keepers will be able to continue to make properly informed decisions as to the animals they are permitted to purchase - what ever those animals may be.

Thank you for your time. 



*An appraisal of Reptiles as pets *​ 

*Reptiles are increasing in popularity as pets as many are easier to keep than many other traditional pets.* A quote from the governments advisers on animal welfare CAWC [Companion Animal Welfare Council]:
 
*“it may be easier to keep some non-domesticated species to high welfare standards than some that are domesticated. Thus, meeting all the requirements - space, dietary, social, thermal, and so on - of a small, hardy, reptile may be more readily achievable for many people than adequately fulfilling all the needs of some breeds of dog”* 


*Responsible Pet Owning **[data from RSPCA sources, 2003]: *
 
Ø In the UK there are 6.5 million companion dogs

Ø There are over 5 million companion reptiles

Ø The RSPCA rescue or re-home on average 25,000 dogs a year (0.38% of total companion dogs)

Ø RSPCA rescue or re-home less than a 900 reptiles on average (0.018% of total companion reptiles)


*Statistically reptiles are the second safest pet* to keep, just behind tropical fish. Data from HASS [Home Accident Surveillance System, 2002] numbers of *people visited hospital due to injuries received from animals: *
 
*Dogs: 64,063 (0.98% of companion dogs caused an injury)*
*Reptiles: 328 (0.006% of companion reptiles caused an injury)*


*In 2008 REPTA [Reptile & Exotic Pet Trade Association] valued the reptile sector of the pet industry at £130 million.* According to AMA research the pet trade overall was valued at £4.7 billion in 2008.
 

*Reptiles have been the fastest growing sector of the pet industry for the past two decades*. According to the Pet Care Trust's State of the Sector Report 2006, 24.4% of retailers questioned sold reptiles.  
 

In 2004 in excess of *1 million homes** kept more than 5 million reptiles** and amphibians. By 2008 estimates are the 1.2 million households keep over 7 million pet reptiles.*
 

Colubrid snakes (corns, rats, milks etc), leopard geckos, bearded dragons and tortoises represent in excess of *75%** of reptiles in trade*. *90%** of animals in trade are captive bred** with o*ver *300,000* reptiles and amphibians being bred in the UK each year and this is increasing.
 

In 2004 over ten million crickets were bred each week in the UK to feed pet reptiles, *by 2008 this had doubled to over twenty million crickets a week*. The pet industry sells in excess of *1,000* vivariums each and every week from pet shops.


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## serpentsupplies (Sep 4, 2009)

brilliant chris, brilliant! well done


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## blazingtortoise (Feb 7, 2008)

Good news!


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## PawsForThought (Sep 7, 2007)

:grouphug:

Yay! Well done Chris! That's brilliant news!

:notworthy:


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## blazingtortoise (Feb 7, 2008)

Juat a thought, did anyone there speak in support of the proposed ban? If so who were they and what did they say?


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## grannykins (Oct 9, 2006)

Well done :no1:


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## cornsnakejay (Jan 17, 2009)

nice one!:no1:



blazingtortoise said:


> Juat a thought, did anyone there speak in support of the proposed ban? If so who were they and what did they say?


i'm curious about this too


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

blazingtortoise said:


> Juat a thought, did anyone there speak in support of the proposed ban? If so who were they and what did they say?


The proposal its self came direct form within the Council. At the meeting itself the agenda items were read out and then we were allowed to make representation to the Council members. After the representation was given, the Council members were more interested in ‘how’ the Council had come to make such a proposal and no defence was offered, it was withdrawn immediately.


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## stubeanz (Mar 28, 2007)

a incredibly well planned report! chris you are a legend :notworthy:
stu


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## KarlW (Oct 6, 2009)

Nice work, would be a pity to see it spread across the country.

however:



> I have know doubt such


:whip:


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## DraigGochHerp (Jun 15, 2005)

Common sense prevails and well done Chris for once again being the guardian of the hobby. I'm a little surprised that you didn't include restraint of trade as one of the legal reaons against such a blanket ban or was that in your armoury for any subsequent action?
It's a pity that such things can be proposed anonymously as obviously happened here. Some anti had some inside influence to get such a stupid proposal put on the council's agenda. They saw sense thanks to Chris's representation so hopefully this will set a precedent for other councils considering similar actions.
Graham.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

I would like to say thank you chris for standing up to the misconceptions yet again, some of you may well think this may not have affected you due to it being in one area, however had it been passed it would have been likely that other councils could have followed suit, the knock on effect could have been disastrous with the likes of schools and housing associations banning the keeping of reptiles on their premises.

We need people like chris fighting our corner, but they in turn need our support, join a national association, donate a little if you can and spread the word .


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