# a dreadful question



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

right this is probably an awful question and Im sure I'll get loads of abuse and be beheaded for this suggestion but i just want to say id never actually do it but i was just wondering about peoples opinions on the subject. instead of pinkys and actual mice, which are too large for alot of T's could we not just feed our T's
Chinese dwarf hamsters? surely they are just as good a substitute and a smaller than mice but because they are live easier to feed than a Pinky?? again i would never do this but Im just spit balling. any opinions??


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

Hows about just feeding our tarantulas on invertebrates???


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

tomkinsm said:


> right this is probably an awful question and Im sure I'll get loads of abuse and be beheaded for this suggestion but i just want to say id never actually do it but i was just wondering about peoples opinions on the subject. instead of pinkys and actual mice, which are too large for alot of T's could we not just feed our T's
> Chinese dwarf hamsters? surely they are just as good a substitute and a smaller than mice but because they are live easier to feed than a Pinky?? again i would never do this but Im just spit balling. any opinions??


Got no qualms about feeding pinkies to animals even if they were live, but pinkies for T's are not right for a food source so they is no point.


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## Nick Masson (Nov 8, 2010)

Instead of*? Shouldnt really be feeding rodents to T's period. The right balance of roaches/crickets/mealworms will give any T the healthy varied diet it needs. Rodent are an unnecessary risk


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

Nick Masson said:


> Instead of*? Shouldnt really be feeding rodents to T's period. The right balance of roaches/crickets/mealworms will give any T the healthy varied diet it needs. Rodent are an unnecessary risk


And fed as a staple would be detrimental.


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## Kamike (Aug 3, 2009)

mcluskyisms said:


> Hows about just feeding our tarantulas on invertebrates???


You might be over simplifying things there mate, remember if there is a more difficult way to do things the folk on RFUK WILL find it!


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## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

Absolutely no need to feed any T vertebrates.


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## lil lizzie (Apr 27, 2009)

im sure we have had this post what ......1000 times already with the same result :whistling2:


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## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

i dont feed my t's vertebrates but I've seen videos of them tackling mice and I've heard that the occasional Pinky is beneficial for a T


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## spidersnake (Dec 1, 2009)

Wild T's do occasionally take the odd pinky or bird if the T is big enough but they dont actually need them. That high amount of calcium will make the T's next moult a lot more difficult than it already is. Result = another dead T due to boundless human stupidity.
We have had numerous post about people giving T's pinkies & the end has always been the same. Not a good idea although some keepers do prefer to risk their pets life.
I'm not having a pop, we all have blonde moments. I'm just trying to clarify how dangerous it is to your pet.


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## NICKO (Sep 8, 2008)

Good point spidersnake

tbh Chinese dwarfs arnt any smaller than mice anyway in fact if memory serves there bigger but Russian dwarfs on the other hand are smaller.

Plus you would be putting a scared rodent with big teeth against a T so it would be increasing the risk of harm to the tarantula. 
IMO i believe its unnecessary except for giant T's but even those could be fed on giant roaches like hissers and Blaburus sp (disicoides and giganteus). 

so i believe to reduce the chance of injuring or even killing you T its would be best to stick to feeder insects and frozen thawed mice IMO. 

just my two pence


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## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

obviously its not worth the risk and i didn't realise that this had been posted loads. i wouldn't feed my spider a vertebrate but i was just wondering really


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## Danhalen (Jun 6, 2008)

A: All the Chinese Dwarves I've had have been at least as big as our mice.
B: They are more expensive and less readily available than mice
C: Tarantulas do not need this kind of food item in any way.
D: Seriously?! I mean come on...


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## DeborahR (Aug 27, 2011)

I have a Chinese hamster, called Bobble.

I originally had 4 as had seen lots of references to them being sociable and wanting to live in groups. Day after getting them... one hamster on its back with its throat ripped out, yuck.

Six months later and I discover that little Bobble is being picked on by his brothers, Fudge and Admiral. So he gets moved to a seperate cage on his own.

Another six months and I find Admiral dead. He and Fudge had gotten on ok up to then, I thought.. I suppose Fudge's murderous tendencies came out again.

And now Fudge has passed away but Bobble is still going strong, at nearly 3.

He is the size of the average fancy mouse, not smaller.

And I wouldn't dream of feeding him to anything.. he managed to survive his murderous brothers, least I can do is let him have a nice, safe life now. He is very cute and friendly  He likes to travel around in my dressing gown pocket. Just a shame he has a totally bald bottom from where he was picked on before I realised and got them all apart.

I keep him well away from my B. smithii. Though as Marjory is only 2.5 inches, I doubt he is in any danger, hehe


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

can't echo this stuff enough
just because they eat mice in the wild, it doesn't mean they want mice as a "treat" or whatever.
i don't care what other people do, i can only advise
but why do people feel the need to do this ??


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## oliwilliams (Feb 23, 2010)

spidersnake said:


> Wild T's do occasionally take the odd pinky or bird if the T is big enough but they dont actually need them. That high amount of calcium will make the T's next moult a lot more difficult than it already is. Result = another dead T due to boundless human stupidity.
> We have had numerous post about people giving T's pinkies & the end has always been the same. Not a good idea although some keepers do prefer to risk their pets life.
> I'm not having a pop, we all have blonde moments. I'm just trying to clarify how dangerous it is to your pet.


 I hear this pushed out most times anyone asks this question but do you have any source material to support this other than other rfuk posts?


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

oliwilliams said:


> I hear this pushed out most times anyone asks this question but do you have any source material to support this other than other rfuk posts?


What are you asking for clarification on?
That t's in the wild will eat most things rodents frogs etc or that it isn't good to feed t's pinkies?


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

tomkinsm said:


> right this is probably an awful question and Im sure I'll get loads of abuse and be beheaded for this suggestion but i just want to say id never actually do it but i was just wondering about peoples opinions on the subject. instead of pinkys and actual mice, which are too large for alot of T's could we not just feed our T's
> *Chinese dwarf hamsters*? surely they are just as good a substitute and a smaller than mice but because they are live easier to feed than a Pinky?? again i would never do this but Im just spit balling. any opinions??


Are you prejudice?


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## oliwilliams (Feb 23, 2010)

No, just wondering if there is any proof that calcium from eating a vertabrate means a spider will have molt problem


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

oliwilliams said:


> No, just wondering if there is any proof that calcium from eating a vertabrate means a spider will have molt problem


You hear that banded about on most forums when this comes up.
On one of the yank forums some body posted that it was okay to feed a medium sized t, a pinky once a week as a treat.
WTF


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

Danhalen said:


> A: All the Chinese Dwarves I've had have been at least as big as our mice.
> B: They are more expensive and less readily available than mice
> C: Tarantulas do not need this kind of food item in any way.
> D: Seriously?! I mean come on...


E:The mess


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## Tguy1998 (Aug 27, 2011)

tomkinsm said:


> right this is probably an awful question and Im sure I'll get loads of abuse and be beheaded for this suggestion but i just want to say id never actually do it but i was just wondering about peoples opinions on the subject. instead of pinkys and actual mice, which are too large for alot of T's could we not just feed our T's
> Chinese dwarf hamsters? surely they are just as good a substitute and a smaller than mice but because they are live easier to feed than a Pinky?? again i would never do this but Im just spit balling. any opinions??


 They have high concentrations of calcium in their bodies that tarantulas cant eat or drink and it can lead to molting problems. My opinion stick with gut loaded crickets,mealworms,morioworms or dubia roaches


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## oliwilliams (Feb 23, 2010)

Tguy1998 said:


> They have high concentrations of calcium in their bodies that tarantulas cant eat or drink and it can lead to molting problems.


Again with the molt issue, do you have any proof of this or a link to anything?


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

Tguy1998 said:


> They have high concentrations of calcium in their bodies that tarantulas cant eat or drink and it can lead to molting problems. My opinion stick with gut loaded crickets,mealworms,morioworms or dubia roaches


:crazy:


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## DeborahR (Aug 27, 2011)

From the huge number of videos on YouTube of people feeding mice (and hamsters) to their tarantulas, I sadly have come to the conclusion that some people feed rodents because they like seeing the gorey results


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

AFAIK there is yet to be any proof of the link between high calcium diet and bad moults, the may have been a good idea behind the original theory but my own exp over many years makes be think it's suspect, and it's not helped by the fact I don't think anyone has done a valid set of tests with control groups.


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## empirecook (Sep 1, 2009)

I give my tarantulas Camel once a month. 

It does make me wonder if its that which gives them the hump. C.darlingi - Well that's a different story.


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

empirecook said:


> I give my tarantulas Camel once a month.
> 
> It does make me wonder if its that which gives them the hump. C.darlingi - Well that's a different story.


Do you put them in the freezer 1st to slow them down?


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## empirecook (Sep 1, 2009)

kris74 said:


> Do you put them in the freezer 1st to slow them down?


:lol2:

Well basically I cryogenically freeze them. Then Bring them back to life for tarantula feeding. 

Unfortunately the arabs don't like me so much for taking there camels. And so it's not calcium I have to be aware of these days...It's frigging C4.


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

empirecook said:


> :lol2:
> 
> Well basically I cryogenically freeze them. Then Bring them back to life for tarantula feeding.
> 
> Unfortunately the arabs don't like me so much for taking there camels. And so it's not calcium I have to be aware of these days...It's frigging C4.


Ye have a cryo machine mate? Lend me it so I can preserve me ma. That way she can still make me Sunday dinners when I'm her age.... :whistling2:


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## Lucybug (May 10, 2011)

oliwilliams said:


> Again with the molt issue, do you have any proof of this or a link to anything?


 
Ok, start here mr lazy bones....

What is a spider's exoskeleton made of

Then do the rest your self , and please dont ask me to point out the obviouse for you....

The rest, well just google it simples


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## Kamike (Aug 3, 2009)

Lucybug said:


> Ok, start here mr lazy bones....
> 
> What is a spider's exoskeleton made of
> 
> ...



Not sure what you trying to say here? The link tells us what the exoskeleton is made of, how its produced and that a molting fluid is used to aid the molting process. It mentions nothing about calcium being detrimental in high levels to the moult process.

I'm going to have to ask you to point out the obvious


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## oliwilliams (Feb 23, 2010)

Lucybug said:


> Ok, start here mr lazy bones....
> 
> What is a spider's exoskeleton made of
> 
> ...


Thanks lucybug kinda proves what i was saying, you use a link from wiki that can be edited by anyone to show a skin is made of protiens and sugars amongst other things at no point does it mention anything about metals in the exoskeleton or provide proof that calcium hinders a molt. I have looked for any evidence of a study, proof, ongoing research or anything else on the web and some serious books that were way above my level of understanding and found nothing. So not lazy and not a case of let me google for you:whistling2:


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## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

Yep ..... I think I also missed the point with that link.
-P


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## Kamike (Aug 3, 2009)

Paul c 1 said:


> Yep ..... I think I also missed the point with that link.
> -P


Glad I'm not the only one, I was feeling a bit thick for a minute lol


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## empirecook (Sep 1, 2009)

Yep, thought it would happen.

Person mentions something. Group asks for evidence. Evidence is attempted to be given. But evidence is not accepted. 

Reminds me of primary school.


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

empirecook said:


> Yep, thought it would happen.
> 
> Person mentions something. Group asks for evidence. Evidence is attempted to be given. But evidence is not accepted.
> 
> Reminds me of primary school.


there was nothing with that link that says giving calcium affects molting !
the link was about what the exoskeleton is made of and how they shed that is it


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

empirecook said:


> I give my tarantulas Camel once a month.
> 
> It does make me wonder if its that which gives them the hump. C.darlingi - Well that's a different story.





kris74 said:


> Do you put them in the freezer 1st to slow them down?





empirecook said:


> :lol2:
> 
> Well basically I cryogenically freeze them. Then Bring them back to life for tarantula feeding.
> 
> Unfortunately the arabs don't like me so much for taking there camels. And so it's not calcium I have to be aware of these days...It's frigging C4.


I was actually laughing so much at this I nearly passed out, damn oxygen. :lol2:


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## oliwilliams (Feb 23, 2010)

empirecook said:


> Yep, thought it would happen.
> 
> Person mentions something. Group asks for evidence. Evidence is attempted to be given. But evidence is not accepted.
> 
> Reminds me of primary school.


 Evidence of what? i accept everything in the link, just has bog all to do with calcium affecting a molt.


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## Kamike (Aug 3, 2009)

empirecook said:


> Yep, thought it would happen.
> 
> Person mentions something. Group asks for evidence. Evidence is attempted to be given. But evidence is not accepted.
> 
> Reminds me of primary school.


What evidence?


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

Stelios said:


> :crazy:


If they can't eat or drink it then how can it be a problem to them?


Sorry Stelios, just realised I quoted the wrong post, I was meant to quote the post above!


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

kris74 said:


> If they can't eat or drink it then how can it be a problem to them?
> 
> 
> Sorry Stelios, just realised I quoted the wrong post, I was meant to quote the post above!


very good point lol, cant wait to see how they answer that one


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

Picking on me again ya monkey hanger (LOL).


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## DPK (Aug 21, 2011)

Mice is ok to some to feed to T's...

But many of those who do this would soon have a fit if i said i feed baby kittens to my T's...

And blond as she is, i think lucy was just pointing out that there exo skeliton is made up of chitin and so on.... Not evidence, but i kinda see what she saying... i think lol ....


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## winter_frost (Jan 31, 2009)

As DPK is saying I think they main point of all this calcium story is accepted by many even without evidence as a way of trying to get people to not feed mice to an animal that is absolutely fine with just having crickets, hoppers, mealworms etc. and doesn´t NEED to eat mice.

Sort of the same thing as nobody would feed burms cats, dogs, goats or babies when they can be perfectly healthy just eating rats and rabbits and don´t NEED a changing diet.

I think this is just the same old story of the owners choice. You can feed mice if you like but why would you when there is no need. I feed mice to my snakes but wouldn´t feed pinkies to my geckos even though they can eat them.


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

winter_frost said:


> As DPK is saying I think they main point of all this calcium story is accepted by many even without evidence as a way of trying to get people to not feed mice to an animal that is absolutely fine with just having crickets, hoppers, mealworms etc. and doesn´t NEED to eat mice.
> 
> Sort of the same thing as nobody would feed burms cats, dogs, goats or babies when they can be perfectly healthy just eating rats and rabbits and don´t NEED a changing diet.
> 
> I think this is just the same old story of the owners choice. You can feed mice if you like but why would you when there is no need. I feed mice to my snakes but wouldn´t feed pinkies to my geckos even though they can eat them.


bearded dragons for example dont NEED a mix of insects to be healthy but people do it because they like it,
if a T likes mice them why not feed them as a treat


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## winter_frost (Jan 31, 2009)

As I said it´s the owners choice. I have nothing against people who feed mice to tarantulas but I personally wouldn´t do it as I don´t see the need to do it. Simple as.


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

winter_frost said:


> As I said it´s the owners choice. I have nothing against people who feed mice to tarantulas but I personally wouldn´t do it as I don´t see the need to do it. Simple as.


yeah i wasnt targeting you personally lol just giving an reply to what u said


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

the calcium thing is interesting. I always assuming it may have been a rumour started by someone who'd had a T or two die from only eating rodents and hadn't any knowledge of the structure of their exoskeletons.

"Well I have tons of calcium in my skeleton..so a spider must have it in it's "exo" skeleton! Like me! It must have gotten too much calcium and it's exoskeleton got too hard to be able to moult! Just like how when I drink lots of milk...my bones get too hard?!...."

which is a stupid idea to start with, but then when you add the fact chitin is a form of sugar mixed with protein and...well.....it seems less likely. I know crustaceans use calcium carbonate as one of the inorganic building block of their chitin structure..but I don't think Tarantulas, having a softer flexible exoskeleton, would make much use of it? They'd probably have chitin and sclerotin?

Random question for those who've fed mice to T's. Can their digestive enzymes actually break down bone at all? Or are all the little bones rolled up into a food bolus?


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

joeyboy said:


> the calcium thing is interesting. I always assuming it may have been a rumour started by someone who'd had a T or two die from only eating rodents and hadn't any knowledge of the structure of their exoskeletons.
> 
> "Well I have tons of calcium in my skeleton..so a spider must have it in it's "exo" skeleton! Like me! It must have gotten too much calcium and it's exoskeleton got too hard to be able to moult! Just like how when I drink lots of milk...my bones get too hard?!...."
> 
> ...


exactly lol, if they didnt use calcium in the exo skeleton then it wont to added to it lol,


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## mtyrrell (May 24, 2011)

i personally think that the whole calcium thing was made up by people who dont like feeding mice to t's as a way of scaring other keepers into not doing it i have never seen any evidence to back up this theory its just a scare tactick in my opinion


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## oliwilliams (Feb 23, 2010)

I have never fed mice to a t so not sure if the bones are broken down although with pinkies the bones are not fully formed so might be less of an issue and only things I can find on the interweb about eating verts in the wild are old reports or bones found in burrows of spiders


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

a couple of species of Ts have been shown to contain D3 in their haemolymph, even when fed a wholly invert diet so they obviously get a small amount (obviously enough) calcium from somewhere.
but too much calcium isn't a good thing in any animal, including human beings, but the actual effects in spiders, rumour and conjecture aside, are unknown at this point.

what is known and fact is that giving a T vertebrate prey has no benefit, they will take it being opportunistic feeders, but it doesn't 'boost' anything other than body fat and too much fat HAS been proven to cause problems such as sores and scar tissue on the underside of the Ts abdomen which most definitely can cause moulting problems, the same can be said of overfeeding with invert food items too.

the other problems from feeding mice and chicks etc are the bodily fluids from the prey dripping into the substrate, a fantastic breeding ground for bacterial populations, aside from the most definite Salmonella who knows what other pathogens you could be growing?


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> the other problems from feeding mice and chicks etc are the bodily fluids from the prey dripping into the substrate, a fantastic breeding ground for bacterial populations, aside from the most definite Salmonella who knows what other pathogens you could be growing?


I haven't fed vertebrate prey but surely you'd put a large plastic tray in and set the rodent on that, collect the juices which drip out..and use them as a base for a stock/stew?...no?...hmm just me then.:lol2:

while thinking about it the plastic tray idea wouldn't be too bad if your T is the type to do the "food dance"(spinning food web) as I call it, right where it catches it's prey


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

Stelios said:


> Picking on me again ya monkey hanger (LOL).


Monkey hanger? Mate you're determined to wind me up like haha I'm surprised anyone south of stinking Hartlepool even knows of the monkey hanging lol


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## sp1d8r (Feb 16, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> a couple of species of Ts have been shown to contain D3 in their haemolymph, even when fed a wholly invert diet so they obviously get a small amount (obviously enough) calcium from somewhere.
> but too much calcium isn't a good thing in any animal, including human beings, but the actual effects in spiders, rumour and conjecture aside, are unknown at this point.
> 
> what is known and fact is that giving a T vertebrate prey has no benefit, they will take it being opportunistic feeders, but it doesn't 'boost' anything other than body fat and too much fat HAS been proven to cause problems such as sores and scar tissue on the underside of the Ts abdomen which most definitely can cause moulting problems, the same can be said of overfeeding with invert food items too.
> ...


I agree, any big influx of a certain metal is bound to be harmful for any organism. Like you say maybe they only require trace amounts of calcium in their diet, to keep it balanced like we would with certain metals. I saw a guy at the gym once taking a chromium supplement which he said was good for muscle recovery?! Then after reading up on it, found out that more than trace amounts of it in the diet is bad for your liver and blood. 

Can't say I've read any solid evidence about moulting problems, though I did see a _T. blondi _in a pet shop a few years back, that was fed predominately on pinkies and fuzzies for about a year. The results weren't pleasant. It grew what I can only describe as a huge dark coloured mass in the abdomen, might have been a haematoma, looked like a big tumour to me, then rapidly went down hill and passed so I don't bother feeding any of my T's vertebrate prey, gut loaded turkistan roaches all the way for me!!! :2thumb:

Also has anyone else heard that inverts eating verebrates shortens their lifespan?? Just wondered whether this was a myth or not.....:hmm:


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