# How could you distinguish between a whiteout and a blizzard het bloodred?



## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

Say you have two snakes: a whiteout (aa chch dd) and a blizzard het bloodred (aa chch Dd). How would you distingush them? I doubt it can be done 100% visually so what would be the best cross to do?

Breed it back to a pewter? 

The whiteout would produce 100% pewters where as the blizzard would produce 50% pewters and 50% charcoals? How many offspring would the suspected whiteout have to produce before you would consider that it was certainly a whiteout?


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

intravenous said:


> Say you have two snakes: a whiteout (aa chch dd) and a blizzard het bloodred (aa chch Dd). How would you distingush them? I doubt it can be done 100% visually so what would be the best cross to do?


I imagine they would be distinguishable - blizzards have belly checkers, and whiteouts would not. The pattern on young/hatchling blizzards is also fairly visible in the right light and becomes more visible with age (they're not quite the patternless snakes that they're made out to be, hence the reason for whiteouts being desirable as they're closer to that ideal), so you should be able to check the patternation on the sides without a major hassle, which might give a clue.



> The whiteout would produce 100% pewters where as the blizzard would produce 50% pewters and 50% charcoals? How many offspring would the suspected whiteout have to produce before you would consider that it was certainly a whiteout?


I think something like seventeen pewter offspring proves to less than a fraction of a percentage chance that the snake is actually only het bloodred. Of course, there's still a chance but that would be a good enough indicator for me.


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

toyah said:


> I imagine they would be distinguishable - blizzards have belly checkers, and whiteouts would not. The pattern on young/hatchling blizzards is also fairly visible in the right light and becomes more visible with age (they're not quite the patternless snakes that they're made out to be, hence the reason for whiteouts being desirable as they're closer to that ideal), so you should be able to check the patternation on the sides without a major hassle, which might give a clue.


If you produced whiteout offspring would these visual differences be enough to say "yes, this is definitely a whiteout" and sell it as one? Or should you really try and breed it before you sell it as one?


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Personally, I would think it best to explain to the buyer why you think it's a whiteout and show them the differences first - that way you're covered in case it turns out not to be!

I think the best way to be sure would be to breed from bloodred based snakes only. For example, fire x pewter to give a clutch of bloodreds het charcoal and amel, and then mate those together so you know any white snakes are whiteouts.


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

toyah said:


> Personally, I would think it best to explain to the buyer why you think it's a whiteout and show them the differences first - that way you're covered in case it turns out not to be!
> 
> I think the best way to be sure would be to breed from bloodred based snakes only. For example, fire x pewter to give a clutch of bloodreds het charcoal and amel, and then mate those together so you know any white snakes are whiteouts.


It would be a bit of a nightmare though :razz:.

Out of 16 offspring you'd get:

1 whiteout
3 fire (66% het charcoal)
3 pewter (66% het amel)
9 bloodred (66% het charcoal, 66% het amel)


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

intravenous said:


> If you produced whiteout offspring would these visual differences be enough to say "yes, this is definitely a whiteout" and sell it as one? Or should you really try and breed it before you sell it as one?


 
i reckon that would be hard to tell, my 06 blizzards have no belly checkers and are a solid pink/white, and were totally pink when i got them, the parents of mine were almost(if not)totally white and i can only see a faint pattern of the saddles with a really bright flash or daylight, both at the right angle.

I dont know if whiteouts would be obvious with the flash/light method?


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

captaincaveman said:


> i reckon that would be hard to tell, my 06 blizzards have no belly checkers and are a solid pink/white, and were totally pink when i got them, the parents of mine were almost(if not)totally white and i can only see a faint pattern of the saddles with a really bright flash or daylight, both at the right angle.
> 
> I dont know if whiteouts would be obvious with the flash/light method?


i reckon you will be able to tell a mile away myself.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

cornmorphs said:


> i reckon you will be able to tell a mile away myself.


 
what would you use to tell? what would be the obvious physical difference? i'd be interested as when i pick up a bloodred i wouldn't mind giving them ago

also what would produce a blizzard het bloodred?


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

intravenous said:


> It would be a bit of a nightmare though :razz:.
> 
> Out of 16 offspring you'd get:
> 
> ...


Yeah, but if you did pewter x amel then mated the offspring together you're looking at 1 in 64 being a whiteout!

If you kept something like 2.4 out of the fire x pewter clutch and mated them together, then you're looking at at least 60 eggs from those females, so 1 in 16 odds should give you a few of them ...


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

captaincaveman said:


> what would you use to tell? what would be the obvious physical difference? i'd be interested as when i pick up a bloodred i wouldn't mind giving them ago
> 
> also what would produce a blizzard het bloodred?


A bloodred het charcoal, het amel x a blizzard :razz:.


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

toyah said:


> Yeah, but if you did pewter x amel then mated the offspring together you're looking at 1 in 64 being a whiteout!
> 
> If you kept something like 2.4 out of the fire x pewter clutch and mated them together, then you're looking at at least 60 eggs from those females, so 1 in 16 odds should give you a few of them ...


If you breed a blizzard het bloodred to a fire het charcoal there is a 1 in 4 chance of producing a whiteout though.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

intravenous said:


> A bloodred het charcoal, het amel x a blizzard :razz:.


 
oh yeah:lol2: Its then about getting a bloodred het charcoal, het amel


so thats something like blizzard to bloodred, then f2=normal het bloodred, het blizzard, then putting it to a bloodred again in the f3 to get the bloodred het blizzard then put them to another blizzard in the f4



I just done it the other way on the program and , blizzard x bloodred, then f2,s normal het blizzard, het bloodred put together and it puts up a massive list of charcoals, normals, bloodreds, blizzards, amels, pewters, with hets for combinations of them lol


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

My plan is to have 2 pewters, 2 fires and 2 blizzards (although it could technically be done with one of each and inbreeding).

Pewter 1 x Fire 1 = All Bloodred het charcoal, het amel (F1A)

Pewter 2 x Blizzard 1 = All Charcoal het amel, het bloodred (F1B)



F1A x Blizzard 2 = 25% blizzard het bloodred (F2A)

F1B x Fire 2 = 25% fire het charcoal (F2B)


F2A X F2B = 25% whiteout


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

intravenous said:


> My plan is to have 2 pewters, 2 fires and 2 blizzards (although it could technically be done with one of each and inbreeding).
> 
> Pewter 1 x Fire 1 = All Bloodred het charcoal, het amel (F1A)
> 
> ...


But it could be done with one blizzard and one bloodred, if you dont mind the f2's together and 2 blizzards and two bloodreds if you do mind


At least yours is possible, i really want a haphazard okeetee but cant get without importing from the states


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

intravenous said:


> My plan is to have 2 pewters, 2 fires and 2 blizzards (although it could technically be done with one of each and inbreeding).
> 
> Pewter 1 x Fire 1 = All Bloodred het charcoal, het amel (F1A)
> 
> ...


But it could be done with one blizzard and one bloodred, if you dont mind the f2's together and 2 blizzards and two bloodreds if you do mind, but obviously dont get 25% out though


At least yours is possible, i really want a haphazard okeetee but cant get without importing from the states


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

captaincaveman said:


> But it could be done with one blizzard and one bloodred, if you dont mind the f2's together and 2 blizzards and two bloodreds if you do mind, but obviously dont get 25% out though
> 
> 
> At least yours is possible, i really want a haphazard okeetee but cant get without importing from the states


With mine all the offspring are visibly different so just by looking at them you know their genetics...which is a big plus :razz:.


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

I think I will just stick to pewter x fire and then mating the offspring together - seems a lot easier that way!


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

intravenous said:


> With mine all the offspring are visibly different so just by looking at them you know their genetics...which is a big plus :razz:.


 
yeah, thats a big bonus, i read further up the page that blizzards should have checkered bellys but neither of mine have and one of the parents was corn fan club show winner and didn't have much/any white as an adult, so i personally would struggle telling them apart, well as far as i know anyway:lol2:


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