# Politics is no laughing matter!



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Politics is no joke!

This is a topic that is not often welcomed by many readers. Having said that there are viewers to my posts that do take on board what is being written and can at least grasp movements within the fields.


Not known for always being direct with the written word in this subject, as many have rightly or wrongly classed the content as ‘scaremongering, spinning or just sending the unnecessary fear of God up the keepers’ at times of late l have only felt the need to write in a certain way addressing this and that.


However, again l received a request at the Basildon show to put pen to paper and write a little of my views and opinions, of the legislation, of the movements as they appear to be seen and also more importantly on current affairs within the reptile and exotics industry.


Apparently in some quarters l am classed as a full anti and in others l belong to some kind of Animal Defender Group – well if being concerned over animal welfare, legislation and issues that surround this industry makes me an applicant for these parties then so be it – call me as you will.


The main focus for me this year has been to look at the legislation surrounding husbandry issues which of course ties in with the Primary legislation – this being the Animal Welfare Act and its supporter the Codes of Practice, although potentially these may be referred to soon as Best Practice Guides.


I am personally very interested in watching these movements and alongside those that l speak and communicate to working in this field, it is a fascinating subject – and one that should not be left unobserved for too long by those that the implications will directly affect especially in this field of keeping exotic animals in captivity.


By the way, where are the reptile codes?? Anyone??


It was always rumoured that 2008 was going to be an interesting year, l can remember back in 2004, 4 years ago the writers of then addressing this year with some baited breath. It was to be the year when the facts would be revealed.


Certainly this year we have seen numerous ups and downs as far as the codes of practice have been concerned, with the likes of our regulators – DEFRA – wanting to see them completed to simply not being that bothered if they are completed let alone commenced upon. The lack of finances within this governmental business has obviously dampened their spirits somewhat.


Now that this industry sits in between two warring parties notably Labour [in power] and Conservative [looking to be in power, next election] – the reason being that of course there are winning votes to be had and we are it – so perhaps both the left and right governing should not look to create as much discourse as they possibly can and start to address our animals needs equally as much as our needs as keepers.


So it is an interesting position to be in, and now we seemingly have the listening aids of both sides – not bad.


Primates as a species have long been in debate and l do believe for very good reasons, there are way too many kept in completely the wrong conditions in private ownership and whilst l do not support a prohibition, despite not being a primate keeper myself, l can see the advantages to a much tighter legislation – and if we were to look at the recent European courts decision concerning private primate keepers in Belgium, this may cause some concern in the UK.

Private keepers in Belgium lost their rights of ownership to primates, they went in on the infrigements of humans rights and basically lost.

The RSPCA are l am led to believe looking to commence a new campaign aimed at either prohibiting private ownership or having primates back onto a licence – a much more effective licence which would mean all species are placed upon it and l alongside many private primate keepers would actually support such a move.


We still eagerly await the arrival of the primate code of Practice, and l believe we may still be waiting in years to come for a finalised version of this.


This would be good news for other exotic keepers, for it was looking that if primates were to be lost then perhaps it would only be a matter of time before other sections or factions of the community would be lost beneath the waves.


Proving in the long road that politics is of course no laughing matter and as long as we are persistent in our pro keeping responses we should be fine – but this is not to say that the battles are all over, done and dusted and way too many keepers when not allowing apathy to rule their ways, are allowing the arrogance of youth to penetrate their beliefs.


Not long back, Nerys and l attended Ratboy and his wife’s birthday celebrations. Present at this entertaining evening were a host of reptile keepers many of them longstanding, indeed, l was as always at these events the only genuine novice. 


Notable about this group in fact was that they were not just long standing keepers, but strongly opinionated and in many respects political writers – so what l lacked in certain areas l made up for in others when it came to conversation.


One of the unavoidable issues of discussion was obviously reptile, but also husbandry and the state of play concerning the industry. Many issues were raised, from animal husbandry to current legislation and the full impact it will have upon the exotic keeping community.


We touched base, oddly enough with forums like this one, RFUK, where quite possibly more freedom of speech is allowed than others, that the keeper has to the right to voice her/his opinions on the rights and wrongs in the industry.


Also concluded was that just how many guest watchers were there to these threads and how many indeed were ADG members disguised as members amongst the community?


There had been some Troll activity about that time, and we were jesting that indeed it was not a troll per se, but more than likely an active member of whichever group trying to create problems.


Whilst we could acknowledge that no the industry was not going to disappear beneath the waves like Atlantis, we could see on the horizon stricter legislation coming into action, quite possibly severe restrictions at that, not now but perhaps 5-7 years in the future, possibly even closer.
That in twenty years the reptile keeping industry as known today would in fact be a very different kettle of fish, more so than some of the young keepers of today may wish to even contemplate.


We also discussed that there were at times, when political writing was seen as a complete waste of time, although it was agreed upon that there are more political readers now than there were of five years ago, and that was a blessing, for it meant that finally things were starting to sink in. … finally.


It was after that evening that l started to pen this post, place it together and watch the forum more closely as indeed l watched the market.


Recently l watched an interview with Andrew Tyler of Animal Aid – now l do not like this man, nor many of his principals and indeed he does have a relatively silly notion concerning animals and slavery, but the one thing that he did pay homage to was this line ‘Britain are not a nation of animal lovers, we are a nation of producers and keepers’


It did not take long for that to sink in, and l hated to have to admit to it, but l did actually agree to what he was saying with that – not all of it, but yes, in the last year in this field of reptiles, l have seen more keepers not just content at being ‘owners of reptiles’ but become scale breeders of the species.


It is true, to a certain degree we are not purely animal keepers, we are a nation of both. Albeit, he was not singularly looking l should imagine at reptiles, but specifically dogs and cats, but indeed he was in truth addressing all the captive keeping factions of the animal industry.


It does seem to be true in many quarters especially in the reptile market that more and more keepers as said are now turning their hands to producing an income for these animals – as to whether they are looking to cope with paying for their collections, for feed prices are not stopping in their steady upward financial rising or simply many seem to be jumping on board the band wagon and just looking at alternate methods of increasing the green within their pockets.


Collections grow ever larger, and in the same breath they also decrease. More reptiles are awarded to rescue centres, alongside the dogs and cats etc. But this question is obvious, do we need to have more and more unwanted reptiles bred?


Rescue centres get slammed, but in reality they receive the rawest deal of all. For it is them that must put up with the discarded species from these ever increasing collections.


As collections grow, the demand for more reptiles increases, so in reality this is a balance, but as said now more reptiles land up in rescue centres.
Are we really a nation of animal lovers any more or purely just driven by the monetary aspects?


People continue to ask of me – is the threat to reptile keeping still present?


Yes it will always be present, our opposition prey upon us as a pride of lions predates over antelope, it is an every day occurrence not just when the hunt is on. We must always be vigilant, we must always be ready to strike back. So many of the strikes against the opposition go unnoticed by the average Joe Bloggs keeper – many just continue on their daily lives none the wiser, that another stress filled week may have passed and reptiles are saved again from the wolves at the door.


I hear of others, keepers, breeders, societies, retailers and so on, say ‘politics is bad for business, so we can not display our interest in it’. I am the first to agree that politics is bad for business, but only because keepers allow it to be so – if it was accepted into everyday life like the morning newspapers – then no business would suffer from its consequences – but would be like a newspaper much better informed.


Legislation is great for improved standards of animal welfare, the rights of the animals, their keepers and so on, so how is that bad for business? Improved husbandry means improved welfare, improving welfare means creating legislation that does the right job, and it is politics that governs the legislation implementation so how is that bad for business? 
In my eyes, it can only lead to improved business!


We must be as said ever vigilant, l find it sad that apparently smuggling is now considered more acceptable than it was five years ago, really? And then l think if it was drugs known to be smuggled in, all hell would break loose, but animals smuggled in boxes into the UK disguised as something other than they are – is not a major problem? It simply can not be can it?
More skunks apparently came into the UK than last year? How do l know this?


Because our official quarantine had to be cancelled, why? Because the sheer number of illegally descented skunks that came into the UK was so high, that the quarantine centre dare not take the risk of import of legally descented skunks???


We must pay special attentions to how we as a community are seen, through all methods, be this our husbandry, our attitudes towards legislation and the such like. People forget JUST how many guests do watch this forum – [Hi Guys] – but also how we present problems to the world.


The recent problems being the Hamm episode, l am sorry, but even l must make mention to this in my closing paragraphs. This has angered me immensely, and whilst l try to remain objective and impartial with matters such as this, there are times when l simply can not. 


Errors of last year were to be rectified, animal losses of last year were to be rectified – it would not happen again it was said – but it did happen again, and by all accounts a lot higher.


I agree with Maureen’s earlier post of this evening. Coaches are made for people, they hold people baggage, reptiles are livestock not baggage. This can not be allowed to occur again – ever. 


For if the ADG’s were to kick off against it, l would support their arguments against it.


Whether issues like this ‘should be discussed on the open forum?’ l think was raised? Why not?


Fear that animal welfare issues will become harder? Well should they not be? 


We care for our animals – then damn we should be able to voice those concerns.


Politics is no laughing matter ladies and gentlemen it is there for all of us, our animals, the keepers, but above all it is there to display to the opposition that with us showing a dedicated commitment to understanding and absorbing what is being set in stone, that we as exotic keepers are potentially here to stay.


Let us remember that eh?

Rory Matier


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## fishboy (Aug 7, 2007)

Don't do politics eh Rory? :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Maybe now a few more people will stop and think about where our hobby is headed and how they are positively/negatively influencing future keeping and legislation, instead of just thinking of themselves and their wallets. Probably not, but well said anyway. :thumb:


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

Some people just dont want to do the politics. 

Although i agree about hamm i don't see how our animals can become expendable with the "if they die they die" attitude if it was kittens there would be a big outcry. However im unsure if the bus's have any special equipment for temperature control.

However i dont see the problem with people becoming breeders. Reptiles are incredibly popular animals with a good portion of the trade going from breeders rather than traders. Earning some cash on the side to help keep your animals is great and it helps establish better CB animals. With spider keepers this is a big concern since 85% of what out there is WC. There are limitations though. One of which is Green Iguanas. It irriates me that people keep breeding these.


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## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Politics is no joke!
> 
> 
> Apparently in some quarters l am classed as a full anti and in others l belong to some kind of Animal Defender Group – well if being concerned over animal welfare, legislation and issues that surround this industry makes me an applicant for these parties then so be it – call me as you will.
> ...


Stayed logged on longer than I intended, so away now to my bed before dawn breaks.

Mo.


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## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

Lucifus said:


> However i dont see the problem with people becoming breeders. Reptiles are incredibly popular animals with a good portion of the trade going from breeders rather than traders. Earning some cash on the side to help keep your animals is great and it helps establish better CB animals. With spider keepers this is a big concern since 85% of what out there is WC. There are limitations though. One of which is Green Iguanas. It irriates me that people keep breeding these.


Fully agree with you with one exception. 

It can become a very big problem when money rules over the animals welfare as is seen with some of the man made morphs out there now, and that does nothing for us in the way of saying we are caring owners and breeders.

 RSPCA chief veterinary adviser Mark Evans said :- 

'"Intentionally breeding deformed and disabled animals is morally unjustifiable and has to stop."

I again find myself agreeing with this comment, and would fully back it. 

What a tangled web has been spun by all of the events that have occurred to date. 

Mo.


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## royalnking (Mar 26, 2007)

I don't "do" politics as a small time keeper I find the legal jargon sends my brain into meltdown, that being said I do find areas of this "hobby" need to be tightened up, and I guess I am one of the political readers you mention.

I eagerly awaited the codes of practice from people a lot more experienced than myself, as none seem to be forthcoming does this mean that there is a conflict of interests or simply a lack of?

I find it ludicrous that nearly everyone I speak to is in agreement about the need for legislation around chicken farms, yet nothing is negatively commented on or even mentioned about breeding racks, which make me cringe. Primitive brain function or not, surely every animal deserves the right to have mental stimulation in it's environment.

I too feel deeply distressed that yet again animals have suffered and died in the transportation of them from shows, I find it hard to believe that so called animal lovers would put the need to find cheap animals and the possibility to make a quick buck over the welfare of their charges. Do I blame the organisers? No I don't, I feel it should be the owners primary instinct to ensure that their animals are transported safely, and if their are conditions that put this out of their control then find alternatives.

Do my comments make people think me a member of an animal rights group? Well to answer that, no I am not, I am definitely a prokeeping supporter I believe that animals enrich our lives and that we too can give them lives worth living. We just need to put our animals welfare first.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

As Keeper, As Breeders, As Hobbyists,As businesses we ALL need to pull together and put Welfare first, not money, not the need for new Morphs, New 'Blood', or for that matter for Cheaper (disposable ?) pets. Reptile keepers do actually have it Far easier than Mammal keepers as far as legislation is concerned but by abusing that and treating our cold blooded Charges with dismissive Contempt, by not facing facts that welfare is not what it should be when it comes to Transportation, importation, sales, and general keeping (And no I am not Taring all with the same Brush, but there are keepers and Traders for whom the shoe fits) we are forgetting that what comes first has to be , in absolutely every circumstance, The Animals. 



They Have no voice it is our Duty as Animal Lovers to speak for them.


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

wohic said:


> As Keeper, As Breeders, As Hobbyists,As businesses we ALL need to pull together and put Welfare first, not money, not the need for new Morphs, New 'Blood', or for that matter for Cheaper (disposable ?) pets. Reptile keepers do actually have it Far easier than Mammal keepers as far as legislation is concerned but by abusing that and treating our cold blooded Charges with dismissive Contempt, by not facing facts that welfare is not what it should be when it comes to Transportation, importation, sales, and general keeping (And no I am not Taring all with the same Brush, but there are keepers and Traders for whom the shoe fits) we are forgetting that what comes first has to be , in absolutely every circumstance, The Animals.
> 
> 
> 
> They Have no voice it is our Duty as Animal Lovers to speak for them.



I 100% agree with this statement, there are many who through any situation, the welfare of their animals comes first. Which is the way it should be, but of course, this isn't what gets noticed, it's the select few letting the rest of us down.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

As a business owner, I do not think politics are bad for my business. Lord knows in the past I contributed very actively and offered what help where I could to what could be described as "political" areas. Retailers stand to lose their entire livelihood if politics dictated major changes in the keeping of exotics, and one would think it would be in their best interests to attempt to get involved positively.

A lot of reptile keepers are younger, and are pushed aside because of their age

To quote Maureen,



> but also wonder who is left that has the knowledge to be able to compile the reptile codes


Do people have to be "left" ? Do the new people in the community not have the ability, knowledge and experience to help? I fear that the unwillingness sometimes that the "old school" shows to embrace newer people fully is cutting off the circulation so to speak, the groups of 20 years ago will get smaller and smaller. Here on the forums, everyone is included in these discussions, but outside of the forums, I wonder how much effort is really made to include "new blood", which is a shame - as the older people would have so much experience and knowledge to pass on, but perhaps there are issues of trust or security, getting to know others well enough to be able to talk openly and freely about serious political issues that cannot be talked about on a forum. Sorry, perhaps this is a bit of a tangent and a subject for another debate 

I've said it before though, I think quite a few of us (and I will openly admit I include myself in that) have become disillusioned by the question

What can we do? How can we make a difference? Is anything we do going to matter?

Until people can feel that they actually can make a difference or contribute in a useful manner, they may not openly speak out on political issues. I do think, if backed into a corner by actual action taken that may negatively affect business, many more people would stand up against it. It is true of many sectors in life, that it has to be near the end, you have to push people over their limits of what is acceptable, before they will stand up and be counted.


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

I only have one question to put the the sentance "coach holds are for baggage"
Car boots are for bags, airplanes are for bags, TNT vans are for parcels. 
So would this mean that if the coach is stopped due to animal welfare issues then the transport as a whole has to be stopped.
TNT have no welfare checks, plans, boats etc.
Boxes get thrown around and left in a depo over night before being delivered. 
None of these modes of transport have any thermostaicly controled holds nor have any thermometers to check temps etc.
In the coaches favour at least they knew what the temps were and the owners had the chance to do the welfare check.


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## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

Athravan said:


> A lot of reptile keepers are younger, and are pushed aside because of their age
> 
> To quote Maureen,
> 
> ...



Hi Christy,

I could perhaps have worded things better, but even so feel that you have thrown what I said out of context by just quoting the one line, and then gone on to assume that I was referring to the ' Old School' of hobbyists when in fact I was referring to young and old alike. Many younger members have walked away from all of this too, because they are disillusioned in the same way that the oldies are. In fact more younger people have drifted then oldies as 'oldies' rarely ever really bother with forums in the first instance anyhow. 

When it comes to youngsters being pushed to the side outside of the forums Christy, again I whole heartedly disagree, and say that if any youngster is determined to learn and makes an effort then 99% of the older more experienced people will spend the time teaching them, and becoming a mentor for them. I personally have taken many students under my wing, and given them 100% trust when it came to seeing to my personal animals here, and they were and are brilliant, and most have a good career now too.

As for the questions of 'What can we do' 'How can we make a difference, they are not really questions that need be asked as everyone on these forums, if keeping some form of creature that is dependent on them for it's well being, should already know the answer there, but sadly that is often not the case as can be seen here. It is the continuous mistakes that often result in suffering and death to the animals we are in charge of that turn the tide on us, and if we all could make an extra special effort, (which it is our duty to do anyway) to ensure that our animals do well under our care, we will all be doing something big for the hobby, as it would then be shown in a good light rather than what is being portrayed here a lot of the time. The hobbyist has to clean up it's own mess, and be seen to be doing so. That's what we can be doing, and yes it would make a difference. 

Is any of it going to make any difference? Hmmmmmmmm? I can't answer that one, and don't believe anyone else can with certainty either. However I am pretty sure that if we don't make any effort to care correctly for our charges that the chance will be taken away from us in the future, and that should be enough to spur people on.

With regards to people sitting back and waiting until they are backed into a corner, that is what I was attempting to say when I questioned who was still around that would be willing to come forward and offer to at least help with the reptile codes. It is a mine field and one that has been ignored up to now. It was at least back as far as March this year when a request for people to come forward to help with the code of practice was requested, and that dropped flat when the few that did come forward to discuss could not agree. Quote here from Scott W back in March just about sums up how hard it will be,







*Quote by Scott W. *COP's for reptiles will be an absolute minefield and something that if attempted to write in too much detail will cause nothing but problems and friction and will never get the full agreement of enough clubs / societies and breeders to make it count for anything other than another gloryfied caresheet.







*End of Scott W's quote. *so again I question who is left that is capable of doing it,and gaining agreement from all the different Societies, etc, and above all, of those capable, who is willing to give their time up to do it? I am not bothered about the age/s of the persons offering, only that they are up to the task, but no body has come forward yet, so I wonder if they ever will.

Mo. 

PS Would you like to back up your comment on the 'Old School' not showing willingness, as from what I have seen, many have tried and offered advice on the forums, only to be torn to sheds by members with little to no real experience,which has led to them deciding they don't need the hassle in their lives, and certainly not when they are giving their leisure time up to try to help, only to be told they don't know anything.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Maureen Collinson said:


> PS Would you like to back up your comment on the 'Old School' not showing willingness, as from what I have seen, many have tried and offered advice on the forums, only to be torn to sheds by members with little to no real experience,which has led to them deciding they don't need the hassle in their lives, and certainly not when they are giving their leisure time up to try to help, only to be told they don't know anything.


I refer to community groups and individually off the forums as well as on and would rather not name names to be honest (nor is it really relevant). I've been insulted by older names in this hobby a number of times - when I started up the shop, when I started up the rescue, when I became chairperson for Cardiff Reptile Association each time I was personally told I would fail because I did not have the relevant experience (judgement based on age not on fact), and I know from speaking to a number of other people involved in running businesses how little respect can be given to the younger group. This is not a personal accusation, so please don't take it as one, but when you referred to those who are "left", I did assume this was based on old school vs new school, in which there is a rift in certain groups.... if groups of reptile keepers can't even get along and work together on things it's very hard to see how we will succeed in creating a good impression on outsiders. There are many good people out there who are not affiliated with any internet forums who could be of great use politically or for codes of practice if called upon.

The perception that age = knowledge or experience is for another debate and will make an interesting one I'm sure.

Whilst Rory writes these posts on the forums, I think it is something that has to be looked at outside of the forums too, many people have walked away from the forums, but may still be useful in a political or hobbyist circle, far beyond simply looking after their animals correctly.

I look after my charges to what I consider the best of my ability, but I cannot force everyone in the UK to do the same thing (I bet we all wished we could), and it is unfortunate, that some people are bringing our reputation down as a whole and it IS frustrating, if all I can do is what I'm doing, but ultimately others will have more negative impact than we can have positive.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Faith said:


> I only have one question to put the the sentance "coach holds are for baggage"
> Car boots are for bags, airplanes are for bags, TNT vans are for parcels.
> So would this mean that if the coach is stopped due to animal welfare issues then the transport as a whole has to be stopped.
> TNT have no welfare checks, plans, boats etc.
> ...


Validy raised,

Are you taking the role of one of the organisers or as a concerned keeper?

I think in all realities that what this will highlight is the way that animals are transported in the UK anyway.

For many a time now, livestock couriers and other transporters have been looked into, perhaps is such a time for them all to be reviewed properly and something done about things.

I have a problem with a few of these issues raised, and whilst l could choose to air them here for ALL and sundry to view or we could look at them in an meeting with the organisers only, and the conclusions to be revealed to both those directly affected as well as those who may think the information would serve them well.

I personally am not adverse to airing it here, but political protocol demands a certain path to be followed, we shall look at that first...................

Rory Matier


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## SnakeyPete (Sep 22, 2006)

Excellent thread !

I agree with the OP . We need to really start to think about the animals. We can only do that as a group of keepers who put our charges to the forefront. 

If we dont , then some other ppl will surely do that for us , through legislation. I would have no problem with that , in fact I think it is needed ( as in OP ) . But ( I know , bad grammer ! ) it has to be with the animals interest at heart , not the keepers . 

We ( IMHO ) forget that reptiles/animals have no choice in the way they are bought/reared/bred/sold/discarded. Only we have choice. Its really that simple. Educate.

We need informed choice , no ''awww thats cute '' at purchase , then a few yrs later when the buyer is looking at an 18 ft albino burmeses it becomes , '' oh oh , wheres' that rescue centre number ''

Or , ppl buy a baby male Iguana , then at it becomes a handful , complete with hormonal breeding instincts !!! Rescue centres are ( to a great degree ) over run with unwanted Iguanas sadly. 

Ppl , I think , forget that certain reptiles live a long long time ( under ideal conditions ) ...thats a commitment that should not be taken lightly . Often I see ppl buying snakes , only to sell them a few months down the line . Why is this ? Hmmmm.

We need dedicated ppl to take the reigns here, or else our ''hobby'' will suffer.

I , like so many other , read with dismay , the tradgic outcome of the recent events about travel and reptiles. Lessons do need to be learned , so far they have not . I mean in ALL regards about the losses, be it owners not checking at stops , holds etc, or unsuitable travelling conditions. All that I can see ( so far ) is that ppl against our hobby , gotta shed load of ammo, and more reps died.

Sadly the only input not given was from the reps themselves , ok they cant ''type'' but more importantly they had NO choice , at all , what so ever. Would it have made a difference? . I think we need look at past history to see that, or not see it sadly.

I think that if we are not careful , then our choice , shall and will be taken away from us all . 

Worrying times.


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

Its funny looking back on the events from this time last year, and what was going on at the time. Many threads went up in this section daily, now we don’t even have enough threads to fill up a page. Yet this section was set up after a direct request for it to be, not by an idea of the admin. 

I myself knew more about what was going on legislation wise this time last year, than I do now. There are 2 reasons for this, I no longer work in the pet industry and so do not get to talk to so many people about what’s going on. Also, we no longer have the same level of info coming through on this forum, as we did a year ago... this is for various reasons. Perhaps i should be working harder myself to find out whats going on. My circumstances this year have not allowed me time to do so. 

I myself volunteered to help with some of the issues raised last year. I spoke to people on the phone, via the net, on here, and through meetings. All of it in the end seemed to achieve nothing at all. I hear of the same people that I offered to help last year, now involved in current issues, and I can’t help but wonder what good it is going to do. This might seem like a very negative attitude for a reptile keeper, the type of attitude that only makes things harder for the hobby in general, perhaps it does! To me however, it does seem that the older generation struggle to get new blood involved in the political side of things seriously, and so just muddle on disregarding them to an extent. To those who know what Chris and his family have been through, we do understand that getting involved in politics is not something to be taken lightly.... but people were/are willing to get involved... if only they were given a serious opportunity. 

Last year somebody made a thread entitled 'Who is Chris Newman'. This was done to raise awareness of Chris, and how he fights for the hobby. I wonder if Chris's profile has been raised much at all in the last year, or if a year on, still hardly anybody knows who he is. 

I see people on this forum saying how we need to start taking things seriously... I thought we had a year ago... but it seems it died very quickly. 

It is always easy to sit back, and moan about things, pick away at people for what they should or should not be doing, and I realise how frustrating it can be for those who are fighting our side. Help was offered though, help that was never taken up seriously!


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## Angi (Nov 12, 2005)

What better time to examine the transport of animals. The introduction of licences to transport animals with regards to economic outcomes has been addressed, but in my eyes not adequately.

Taken from Defra's website
Defra, UK - Animal health and welfare - Animal welfare - Transport


_“No person shall transport animals or *cause animals to be transported in a way that is likely to cause injury or undue suffering to them*” (Source: Council Regulation (EC) No 1/2005 on the protection of animals during transport and related operations and amending Directives)_

Personally I believe the bold text in the above quote highlights a major area for concern regarding reptiles being exported from shows such as Hamm and Houten in coaches which are not designed for this purpose. Is the above regulation not being broken if this situation is allowed to continue unchanged?

I have just been reading the regulations and discovered this little statement which is interesting.
_1.13 Pet animals (and this term includes not only companion animals but also equidae and ponies for private riding or recreation purposes) which are accompanied by their owners on private journeys are excluded from scope. However, when pets are carried separately from their owners and the owners do not have access to them (during air flights or on ferry crossings for example) the pet exclusion would not apply during that part of the journey.This means that companies transporting those animals on behalf of the owner will have to comply with the requirements of the Regulation._
*Do the people transporting the animals on these coaches have the appropriate licence to cover this part of the journey?*

another quote which I feel is relevent
_1.16 There are no exclusions or exemptions from the general ‘duty of care’ obligation (Article 3), which states: "No person shall transport animals or cause animals to be transported in a way likely to cause injury or undue suffering to them". Furthermore, the Animal Welfare Act 2006, which came into effect on 6 April 2007, introduces a general ‘duty of care’ provision for all animals._ 


Reading on further it seems that animals being transported for economical puropses must be transported in a vehicle that has a vehicle approval certificate, surely when large amounts of reptiles and amphibians are to be transported on such prolonged journeys then the same should apply.....


I have more to add but Im off the watch Gordon Ramsey so will return later


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

An interesting and informative post Jack.

I requested that this section be placed up from TBO, and he granted me that request.

I wrote in here from just after the failed Exeter event with a lead in to that event and looking at both Chris Newman and the FBH.

Now lets look at the crux of your post shall we?

Yes Jack, you did offer assistance and you are/were not the only one to do so.

If l am brutally honest about things and hell, why should l not be now following your post - l think that the problems were and are simple - that pro keeping in the UK is far from efficiently organised, we have very few available funds to go around for volunteers and supporters - We do it off our own backs, we fund our support ourselves, we take the brunt of all the crap onto ourselves, we write our opinions, our views and our understandings so that others may view it, but we do so off our own backs.

But let us be again brutally frank, this forum was kept abreast of all sorts of events, it was down to the readers of then and now to make their own judgements of what was what?

Last year, l think if l recall correctly, it was a poster of some standing that basically said alongside others that unless what we were to write held strength to it, then to not bother. And now a year on almost from December of last year to be precise, we have contributed very little, and has that made the slightest concern in/on this forum Jack?

NO, yet, subjects, topics, etc raised last year for awareness have materialised, many have yet to show themselves and still the 'hobby' as such rumbles on blissfully unawares or in some cases actually cares.

All the help offered was also offered to much higher up the chain, and what did we receive back from that? Not much, not much at all.

I myself, do not write that much anymore in this section unless l have something to say, usually l can be found in the mammal section - do l believe less of what is going on?

No, but my politics have changed dramatically in the last 9 months, indeed they were changing 12 months ago, l tend to look harder at the industry now and not all the time do my politics sit with my peers that well. In fact if l am to be honest l think my views on political hard core issues changed considerably when Chris Newmans' boss came on board this forum in spring of this year.

Writers of political views and we have many on this forum alone, tend to do as l do, watch more and speak only when we feel the need to do so.

You spot us when something dramatic happens, and we rally forwards. It does not mean that we still do not believe in what is happening, it just means that we focus our attentions differently. We have l suppose become or chosen to become more specialised in certain areas.

You and a large handful of concerned keepers take the hobby very seriously, many do not, many think the problems will not affect them personally and even others will have us believe that they will secure their premises from unuthorised entry and battle to the last man, woman and child.

But here is the outright question, what can we do in reality ??

Well my friend, l dont know, and l think this is why l stopped writing as prolifically as l was, not because l do not believe in the threat, but because l am sometimes l am at a loss on how to progress this further. We face rich opponent/s, better organised, highly efficient at what they do and believe in, and ready to act at the drop of a hat - and not all of the keeping community hold those views - so it makes it hard.

RFUK has been very supportive of the political pressures and they too have come under them of even more recent times, you will always have my support for you launched a political understanding by allowing the freedom of speech in the forum. We have discussed daring issues here, and may it continue to occur.

But the answer you are looking for Jack, in why certain things do not happen any more or why Maureen pays heed to the fact that l do not write anymore - l believe in what l believe in, others hold similiar views, many in fact - but until we can be seen to be 100% pro active and supported by those at the top that are pro active - then sadly we will never achieve anything bar the writings on the wall.

Rory Matier


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## alexwilliamsreptiles (Mar 29, 2008)

Well then can I be the first to take what is in my opinion a posotive action by requesting that this thread be made a sticky in the hope that keepers from across the forum take the time to read what has been a very interesting and enlightening thread and then prehaps reconsider there own practises and think about how it is that they can "make a difference": victory:


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

alexwilliamsreptiles said:


> Well then can I be the first to take what is in my opinion a posotive action by requesting that this thread be made a sticky in the hope that keepers from across the forum take the time to read what has been a very interesting and enlightening thread and then prehaps reconsider there own practises and think about how it is that they can "make a difference": victory:


I'm not sure there's any point in making it a sticky... as it's in a section with 8 posts in it so it's on page one anyway


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

My personal opinion people and their organisations focus too much on internet forums. I am not sure of the exact figure but lets say a million people keep reptiles as pets. This forum has about 3-4000 active members a month. About 100 if we're lucky will read this section. So out of that million potential campaigners/vounteers these organisations are reaching possibly 0.001% of their target audience. I have never heard of the FBH or IHS outside of a reptile forum or any other pro exotic organisation. Maybe one idea is trying to target more keepers.


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## alexwilliamsreptiles (Mar 29, 2008)

Athravan said:


> I'm not sure there's any point in making it a sticky... as it's in a section with 8 posts in it so it's on page one anyway


well that sure burst my bubble:lol2:


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Andy said:


> My personal opinion people and their organisations focus too much on internet forums. I am not sure of the exact figure but lets say a million people keep reptiles as pets. This forum has about 3-4000 active members a month. About 100 if we're lucky will read this section. So out of that million potential campaigners/vounteers these organisations are reaching possibly 0.001% of their target audience. I have never heard of the FBH or IHS outside of a reptile forum or any other pro exotic organisation. Maybe one idea is trying to target more keepers.


 
And Andy, 

You are spot on!

5% of the keeping community frequent forums.

This is only the tip of the iceberg.

When pro keeping is able to fund a campaign to the length and breadth of the UK to inform keepers properly - only then will you have a movement of increased strength and healthy vigour.

R


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

It all goes back to the industry taking a certain amount of responsibility. The shops and retailers are the only point of contact for all people in this hobby there aren't many keepers who are totally self sufficient. A leaflet made up detailing some facts about the political side of the hobby could be distributed to shops to hand out. It would cost a fair few quid though and would need to be worded correctly or people would be put off. If people who keep reptiles but dont use forums or aren't members of any society know the facts regarding the hobby and have a chance to sign up to a newsletter then its their choice to get involved.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Andy said:


> It all goes back to the industry taking a certain amount of responsibility. The shops and retailers are the only point of contact for all people in this hobby there aren't many keepers who are totally self sufficient. A leaflet made up detailing some facts about the political side of the hobby could be distributed to shops to hand out. It would cost a fair few quid though and would need to be worded correctly or people would be put off. If people who keep reptiles but dont use forums or aren't members of any society know the facts regarding the hobby and have a chance to sign up to a newsletter then its their choice to get involved.


Again, l agree with you.

The leaflet concept aimed at retailers and societies was suggested about 8 months ago, as of yet l know not the answer to that suggestion.

R


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

Rory, you seem to have taken my post more personal than it was meant. 




TSKA Rory Matier said:


> If l am brutally honest about things and hell, why should l not be now following your post - l think that the problems were and are simple - that pro keeping in the UK is far from efficiently organised, we have very few available funds to go around for volunteers and supporters - We do it off our own backs, we fund our support ourselves, we take the brunt of all the crap onto ourselves, we write our opinions, our views and our understandings so that others may view it, but we do so off our own backs.


Your above statement I think sums up the problem that we have as a hobby. However, it has been known for years how the anti's have such a better leaver on things that we do, yet as a bystander, I see no real action going on into reversing this trend, and trying to better position ourselves. What I do see (as a bystander), is old men going around in circles. I truly do not intend to offend anyone by that comment, but that is really how I view 'our side'. 



TSKA Rory Matier said:


> But let us be again brutally frank, this forum was kept abreast of all sorts of events, it was down to the readers of then and now to make their own judgments of what was what?
> 
> Last year, l think if l recall correctly, it was a poster of some standing that basically said alongside others that unless what we were to write held strength to it, then to not bother. And now a year on almost from December of last year to be precise, we have contributed very little, and has that made the slightest concern in/on this forum Jack?
> 
> ...


This forum was kept very much up to date with issues that were going on last year. I myself as you know found it very informative, and emotive in how the state of the hobby was/is, and it made me much more aware of what I as a keeper should be doing, not only in the care of my animals, but also for the long term future of the hobby. 

I do also remember well, the flack that you had to endure from some members on here, and how some tried to beat you down. As for the lack of posts over the year, and its effect on the forum and hobby, maybe you are right, and no one has taken any notice. Perhaps people became disillusioned with it, maybe as there was no longer anyone 'leading the way', they felt they could do no more? 

Myself personally, well, I made offers, serious ones, not only to yourself, but to those higher up the chain. I sat in that meeting last September, which sadly to me seemed to achieve nothing other than a general feeling that nothing more could be done. I was someone willing to help, yet after an hour with 'the old guard', I felt as if jumping off the nearest bridge would have achieved more than that meeting did. Although I did wonder if anything had every really been hoped to come out of it in the first place. 




TSKA Rory Matier said:


> You and a large handful of concerned keepers take the hobby very seriously, many do not, many think the problems will not affect them personally and even others will have us believe that they will secure their premises from unuthorised entry and battle to the last man, woman and child.





TSKA Rory Matier said:


> But here is the outright question, what can we do in reality ??


The question has to be asked, do people not take the threat from the anti's seriously, or do they just not know it exists? 

I still do not think enough is done to highlight the issues, and im not laying that blame at your feet, and I understand a lack of funding does not help the matter either. I do however, as was discussed at great length 12 months ago, still think more can be done that does not involve huge sums of cash. 

We could debate what can really be done, but the phrase, 'been there, done that', comes to mind. This time last year, there were so many ideas, so many plans.... none came to fruition. 




TSKA Rory Matier said:


> But the answer you are looking for Jack, in why certain things do not happen any more or why Maureen pays heed to the fact that l do not write anymore - l believe in what l believe in, others hold similar views, many in fact - but until we can be seen to be 100% pro active and supported by those at the top that are pro active - then sadly we will never achieve anything bar the writings on the wall.


Rory, I am well aware of why you no longer post the way you once did, and your circumstances behind it. You are also well aware of mine during this year aswell. Things change that no longer allow people to be involved in things the way they were, however I still stand by comments that people were serious about helping, and they were ignored. < That is not aimed at you!


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

You did not offend me Jack and if l have responded in a way to make you think that you had, then forgive me of this err.

What you did do, was spark my passion Jack.

You know, as indeed l know how you feel about this industry.

My passion, my enthusiasm has been somewhat drained, perhaps l am tired, but no more than most. My motivations for the industry are strained, of this l will not deny. And yes, l too know the strains you have been under this year also.

But you, Fishboy, Trice, Dan, myself we alongside others attended the meeting of last September - [some unwittingly eh?] but we listened and we suggested and we argued.

And what has come of it, in all seriousness?

So many of us, continue to slog our guts out in written form in what we believe and our understanding of the legislation and its interpretations.

Disillusionment is a good word, and perhaps it accurately sums up my feelings and a host of other writers whom are not as prolific as we too once were.

No Jack, no offence taken - you at times my friend, have a way of pointing out issues, and for that l thank you.

Rory


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## Angi (Nov 12, 2005)

No need for me to say some of the other things I was going to, theyve already been said.

First thing Ive heard of this "meeting" last September, what was all that about, was this just for a select few or all reptile keepers?


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Validy raised,
> 
> Are you taking the role of one of the organisers or as a concerned keeper?
> 
> ...


 
Rory, im not an organiser for the coach, just helped out as we had been before thats all 
So as a keeper and a person who likes a good debate 
I have concerns yes, about the way the likes of TNT transport where animals are left over night, i know they have no temp control and that half the drivers dont even know they are carrying reptiles.



Angi said:


> What better time to examine the transport of animals. The introduction of licences to transport animals with regards to economic outcomes has been addressed, but in my eyes not adequately.
> 
> Taken from Defra's website
> Defra, UK - Animal health and welfare - Animal welfare - Transport
> ...


To point out that its not just coaches that are not made for animals as i said in my first post. TNT have allowed to be unchanged for how long?
This have never (as far as im aware) been addressed the same way as the recent hamm trip, even when forum members have stated they have seen TNT kicking and throwing boxes around with reptiles in.
Or even royal mail for that matter



Angi said:


> I have just been reading the regulations and discovered this little statement which is interesting.
> _1.13 Pet animals (and this term includes not only companion animals but also equidae and ponies for private riding or recreation purposes) which are accompanied by their owners on private journeys are excluded from scope. However, when pets are carried separately from their owners and the owners do not have access to them (during air flights or on ferry crossings for example) the pet exclusion would not apply during that part of the journey.This means that companies transporting those animals on behalf of the owner will have to comply with the requirements of the Regulation._
> *Do the people transporting the animals on these coaches have the appropriate licence to cover this part of the journey?*




The animals were accompanied by their owners, through out the whole journey. For the people that had animals picked up for them then i would think as the passengers filled out customs forms that they took ownership responsibilites for the animals traveling in their boxes.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

'This have never (as far as im aware) been addressed the same way as the recent hamm trip, even when forum members have stated they have seen TNT kicking and throwing boxes around with reptiles in.
Or even royal mail for that matter'


TNT to my knowledge, do not have a current thread with a death toll attached, if they did, then perhaps they too might be under the hammer so to speak.

If transport into the UK and transport issues are to be raised, l feel in the near future they may well be, but it will not be on/in this forum.

R


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## Angi (Nov 12, 2005)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> If transport into the UK and transport issues are to be raised, l feel in the near future they may well be, but it will not be on/in this forum.
> 
> R


 Why not?


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

I am referring to the legislation of Transport rather than a discussion thread raised by interested parties.

[For clarification: If transport as a piece of legislation is to be reviewed it will be done at a much higher level and will take into consideration all aspects of transporting animals around the UK by regulated and authorised licenced holders, rather than and in comparison to a thread raised about transport by keepers, retailers or societies]

R


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

> To point out that its not just coaches that are not made for animals as i said in my first post. TNT have allowed to be unchanged for how long?
> This have never (as far as im aware) been addressed the same way as the recent hamm trip, even when forum members have stated they have seen TNT kicking and throwing boxes around with reptiles in.


TNT have already phased out the opening of new accounts for reptiles for quite some years now and I believe it IS being discussed at higher levels whether they should be allowed to offer anything at all to existing accounts anymore. Before that, it was businesses only. Now each box is meant to carry the transportation certificate from the company of origin, and if an animal was incorrectly packed or the trip resulted in the death or illness due to fault of the delivery, it is entirely possible that that sending company could lose their license, or even be prosecuted if it was thought that they were sent cruelly.

Most retailers, as I will tell you, that they receive boxes of animals every single week. I have never had an incorrectly packed box. I have never had a box arrive too hot. Heat packs can be used to make sure a box doesn't freeze. And I think that the DOA statistics would be extremely low, a negligible amount compared to the amount of reptiles sent by TNT. This does not make it a good method of transport, it does go someway to answering why people are thinking that the coach is a bigger deal.

Another issue - TNT don't care about reptiles. TNT don't have reptile based knowledge. TNT don't have the ability to stop and open up parcels half way through the trip. TNT probably don't care that much if they can't carry livestock anymore, the fact that they eliminated it from new accounts years ago shows that they are not keen on expanding that area of their business. No one really expects TNT to issue post mortems, insurance information, apologies, no one expects the CEO of TNT to feel bad about a lizard dying in a box. Perhaps that's wrong, but it is another contributing factor as to why people are getting upset at a coach run by reptile specialists not being able to enforce rules and regulations that will keep reptiles alive. The knowledge of reptiles and the design of the trip purely to transport live reptiles makes anyone a specialist courier. If animals were dying with any of the specialist couriers we have in the UK people would be kicking up a fuss.

There are higher expectations of quality from a delivery run by experienced knowledgeable herpetologists, than a parcel courier. When these expectations are damaged, people get upset.

TNT was never open to the public or for all and sundry to see or take part in. Businesses presumabley are expected to know how to package their animals correctly and take responsibility if animals die - if animals get to a customer in a poorly condition the retailer can suffer financially and with reputation. I have never heard of a retailer over packing a box for space - because it costs the same to send one box, or 10 boxes with TNT as long as it is within a certain space/weight limit, you can take all the space you need. If a trip with limited space encourages irresponsible keepers to overpack which can result in death, whilst this may not be the fault of the organiser it is a consequence of the method of travel regardless of who is to blame. 

Animal welfare should not be about blaming people & passing the buck, it should not be about saying "well TNT gets away with it", it should be about improving things so they do not happen again. 

Sorry for the long rant, I am just a bit tired of seeing what is meant to be specialist transportation compared to TNT, it has happened a few times now. There is no comparison.


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Dont be sorry Christy, 
Its not my view that "tnt get away with it so why shouldnt everyone else"
It is however my view that if the back of a coach is not suitable for transporting reptiles then nor is the back of anywhere, other than a specially equipt van with heat control.
Personally the transport law need to be made clear of exactly what needs to be done in the transport (beit a car or a bus) for it to be made safe for reptiles to travel. 
If not then their should be speically licensed transport ONLY for the transport of reptiles, not dry goods etc.


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## Angi (Nov 12, 2005)

*"Animal welfare should not be about blaming people & passing the buck, it should not be about saying "well TNT gets away with it", it should be about improving things so they do not happen again. "*


*Well said Christy.*

I just cannot fathom how people think that transportation of reptiles in the same manner as the coach to Hamm should be allowed to continue, without making changes so that there will be no deaths. Is it so difficult to understand? I am not wanting to point blame at anyone, I do not care who is to blame as going down that road is not really going to help reptiles in the future. What I care about, and everyone on this forum should also care about is the future of transporting animals to and from shows without causing them unnecessary suffering or even death. Now we know there have been deaths we should all be working together on a solution rather than wasting our energies squabbling amongst each other.

Shows are already under threat, and the repeated events of numerous reptile deaths upon coaches is a negative point that can also be used as ammunition by those wanting to stop the shows. So surely it makes sense for us all to pull together, get our act together and do something about this situation.

I read that a couple of people are working on solutions, I wonder if anyone would care to share these possible ideas on the forum??


TNT is a completely different matter in my eyes, but why not try to think of ways to improve the situation there aswell? If we can come up with some decent workable ideas then maybe we could propose them to TNT and other similar 
companies.

Sorry Rory, I did not mean to hijack the thread with just one point, but I just feel thast this is something we could change for the better much easier than some of the other points.


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Angi said:


> *"Animal welfare should not be about blaming people & passing the buck, it should not be about saying "well TNT gets away with it", it should be about improving things so they do not happen again. "*
> 
> 
> *Well said Christy.*
> ...


I agree Angi
Why only do half a job so to speak if we are going to talk about transport of reptiles from shows why not talk about the transport of animals/reptiles as a whole.
I agree that any transport is not ideal, but with out it our hobby would be dead in the matter of months.
We need to look at the whole issue of transporting, just because there is no thread about TNT or any other mode of transport, it does not mean their are no issues there.
Although im not sure what else could be done about transporting and the AWA, as if we go down the route of suffering a lot of people are going to come to the conclusion that putting them in a box to travel is not ideal, so why is keeping them in a viv.

We need temp controlled transport, oxygen controlled transport, welfare stops and checks.....
I cant see any large company of transport being able to do this sort of thing but we never know, we may well have our reptiles delivered in the vivs and envioments they live in


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

As an old timer, I would have to disagree christy, I think maureen has hit it on the head, the problem is that even only a few years ago experienced people were all over the forums, and left one by one due to the constant arguing that went on about husbandry even though these people had spent their life gaining valuable insight into husbandry techiniques , vet treatment, and other aspects of captive care, they had made observations that only time allows you to make, yet they were treated with total derision. I speak of people such as Rob Lane who as forgotten more about chameleons than most people know, andy highfield who is respected as one of the top tortoise people in the uk, maureen collenson has contributed loads of information about treating snakes, and a number of others i can think of, they all get tired of trying to argue their point across. Yus i do realise there are some on here who have stuck it out but compared to what was alot have left.
I do however agree which is that a problem lies that years and experience automatically make the keeper knowledgable, this is not automatically true, and I can think of several younger people i have worked with who have spent all their time learning and gaining experience and are more knowledagble than others who have kept longer. But as a general rule it does work. Having taught on courses it always amazed me when people wouldnt go on the beginner courses and came on the advanced courses only to have no idea what we were talking about. The internet is certainly guilty of instant experts.

However I absolutely agree with many of your points about transport, and how we absolutely have given people who are against exotic pets, there very arguments in the way we deal with things, we seem unwilling to talk about husbandry problems, animals which die due to transport, in fact most things that need correcting. Lets just shhhhhh it up and hope it gets better which of course it doesent, only worse. Those of us who remember cviewmedia days, remember some incredible debates which took place, and some of which many people who did this were on different camps, but still managed to work together. This could be the case today, 

But incredibly as technology as moved on, so many things have not changed, it is still not standard to use uv with tortoises and lizards, thermostats are still classed as optional extras, when are we going to get a grip and use the technology which others have developed for us, in order to keep our reptiles healthier. Pete Foulshams habistat, the work the uvguide group has done is not new, there are so many people who have worked tirelessly to make todays herper a better keeper. But is it the case, not in my opinion, the steady tide of sick and avoidable problems is still constant. The amount of posts on sick reptiles who have not been taken to a vet but allowed to suffer whilst numerous forum posts are made. Yes there are poor vets but the fact is a trip to the vet to get it checked will almost all of the time do more good for it than talking about it on a forum and nothing happening for days.

It is generally talked about that a level of breeding is going down not up, the level of knowledge is poorer, as mentoring and herp meetings come to a halt. The internet is good in so many ways, but it is equally guilty of confusing new keepers as anyone can make a website and list what to do wihtout actually being right. Many websites even have it completely wrong, 

In relation to shops we do sometimes get things wrong, and rely on it being pointed out to us when we do, most of the shops i have mixed with are keen to do things right, and gain better understanding of how our reptiles work. It is interesting that restaurants all seek the highly prised mitchelin star system, maybe something like that should be brought into the reptile world. 

I know one thing i am sick of the amount of commonly kept reptiles which are sick and or dying from lack of the very basics. KNowledge which we knew years ago, now either forums arent succeeding in education or people arent implementing it. There is also a general attitude against learning from keepers, I know how much i have learnt from those with more knowledge. Had i derided them i would have got a flea in my ear.

Money has always come into play with reptiles in every aspect of it, and although it can be a bad thing, equally it can be used for alot of good, like supporting work which is going on in the field, such as Daniel Bennets work with grays monitors, Rom Whittakers conservation work in india. But within the hobby we hear so little about it let alone support it. There is so much room to work , do better, and learn more about these great creatures we keep.

Even shows could be done in a way that educates people, why not have speakers which aid people in keeping certain species, education is not only the way forward it is essential if keepers are to be taught and aided in captive husbandry.

It would be so good for all if we pulled our britches up and worked together so we can not hand on a plate arguments to people who do not think we know or care how to look after our animals properly. IF trips to europe are to be organised, then maybe a a group of people should discuss the best way of transporting them, which doesent contrevene the animal welfare act and general interest of the reptiles. Just one point i am curious of, when the coach passes through customs does it or not declare to customs the animals are entering the uk.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I have used TNT to send and receive reptiles countless times and never had one DOA. I never sent stuff out in hot weather or cold weather though.


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## gtm (Jan 23, 2008)

Andy Highfield is a member of this forum and is currently active - his 'call sign' is (unsuprisingly) 'Tortoise Trust.


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

i realise that why dont you ask him how tired he is of having to argue his knowledge across,


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## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

Wow. Some brilliant posts here that I will need to come back and read at a decent hour, plus I need to away now due to a very early start in a few hours time.

I just wanted to add that for those reading here that were involved in the recent Hamm trip via coach, there is a request on another thread for you to please contact Natrix via pm. Please click on link below for Natrix's full post. It is the last one on there.

Thanks Mo. 

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/reptile-shows-breeder-meetings/184705-free-flow-information-19.html


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Maureen Collinson said:


> I just wanted to add that for those reading here that were involved in the recent Hamm trip via coach, there is a request on another thread for you to please contact Natrix via pm. Please click on link below for Natrix's full post. It is the last one on there.
> 
> Thanks Mo.
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/reptile-shows-breeder-meetings/184705-free-flow-information-19.html


Thanks Maureen 

Can I just say thanks to those that have PM'd me already and to those I haven't got back to yet, sorry for not replying but I'm working all weekend but I will reply to you first thing monday.

Natrix


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## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

This is a truly amazing thread.

As a realativly new keeper and user of this forum, I was not really aware of the problems surrounding this 'hobby', and, of the issues i was aware of, i was not aware to what degree and that there were people like yourselves fighting our corner, trying to put things right, and that surely is the problem.....ignorance.

Im not sure that i can contribute or that i can help in any way, other than making sure I am no longer ignorant to these issues and the political side of exotics and as a keeper ensure i am as good and better than i must be for the sake of my animals and everyone involved, but if there was ever anything i could do, then i would, but I feel very uneducated and inexperienced next to you all.

I shall definately keep my eye on this, it surely is the most important thing i have ever read on this forum.


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