# Anything toxic to roaches food wise?



## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

Just wondering if there's anything I should avoid feeding them as I've never thought about it before. I have a colony of dubias and they just get anything really..

they get a selection of what ever fruit and veg we have going, though I buy them cheapo oranges and they go mad for them it seems.

Then dry food wise they get a mix of tesco value cornflakes/bran flakes and cheapo dog biscuits crushed up.

I throw in random things sometimes, they got a flapjack yesterday. :lol2:

But yeah is anything actually toxic? Chocolate for instance? I've fed a jaffa cake before..


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## Paul112 (Apr 6, 2007)

I don't think anyone's particularly done thorough tests on it. The best guide is to feed foods that you feel are safe for your reptiles; after all, they're the ones at the top of the food chain who will be getting the nutrition.

Fruits, cereals, veg, dog and cat biscuits, fish food etc are all generally acceptable. Whilst your roaches will probably try and eat just about anything, it's best to keep the foods to a simple, mixed diet.

Best,
Paul


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## Paul112 (Apr 6, 2007)

I don't think anyone's particularly done thorough tests on it. The best guide is to feed foods that you feel are safe for your reptiles; after all, they're the ones at the top of the food chain who will be getting the nutrition.

Fruits, cereals, veg, dog and cat biscuits, fish food etc are all generally acceptable. Whilst your roaches will probably try and eat just about anything, it's best to keep the foods to a simple, mixed diet.

Best,
Paul


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

The thing to remember with insects is that whatever you feed them, you are directly feeding your reptile. Would you feed your reptile a jaffa cake?!

While they eat what you give them, there are things that are better than others. Generally stay away from cat food of any kind, and limit the amount of dog food you give them to once a month or so. These high protein diets tend to cause roaches to increase their uric acid stores. While there is no direct studies on what that means to your reptile, I think its advisable to reduce their uric acid intake whenever possible. (it leads to dehydration, which is a common problem with captive reptiles)

Try to feed them fresh veggies daily (skip the citrus) and a variety, then offer a dry diet. I recommend either you buy roach chow, or you can mix up your own pretty easily. Take alfalfa pellets (or a good rabbit food blend) then add oats, corn meal, and some calcium powder. Have that in the tub at all times. Roaches are smart in that they will eat based on what nutritional requirements they have. If you give them the choice they will eat what they need.


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## ZOO CENTRE (Apr 1, 2010)

jarich said:


> The thing to remember with insects is that whatever you feed them, you are directly feeding your reptile. Would you feed your reptile a jaffa cake?!
> 
> While they eat what you give them, there are things that are better than others. Generally stay away from cat food of any kind, and limit the amount of dog food you give them to once a month or so. These high protein diets tend to cause roaches to increase their uric acid stores. While there is no direct studies on what that means to your reptile, I think its advisable to reduce their uric acid intake whenever possible. (it leads to dehydration, which is a common problem with captive reptiles)
> 
> Try to feed them fresh veggies daily (skip the citrus) and a variety, then offer a dry diet. I recommend either you buy roach chow, or you can mix up your own pretty easily. Take alfalfa pellets (or a good rabbit food blend) then add oats, corn meal, and some calcium powder. Have that in the tub at all times. Roaches are smart in that they will eat based on what nutritional requirements they have. If you give them the choice they will eat what they need.


We tried to resolve it on the roachforum some time ago.

I absolutely do not agree with this opinion: high protein diet=bad diet!

Of course that high protein diets increase the uric acid storage- is is the same for all animals!
Will you feed the feeder rats by vegetables.....?

IN MY OPINION IT IS A NONSENSE!


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

I guess I dont understand what exactly you are disputing. I never said high protein is some life threatening issue. I said its best to avoid the highest protein diets (cat food) and to _limit_ the amount of the dog food, which has a more reasonable protein amount.

Feeding them a high protein diet does cause them to increase their stored uric acid levels. As this is then something that your reptile has to process through its liver and kidneys, it _could_ possibly be an issue, especially for dehydrated animals. Dubias only require about 10-15% protein in their diet, so feeding them a constant supply of 30-40% protein is both unnecessary and useless. Again, its sort of a non-issue if fed in conjunction with fresh veggies, since as I already stated, the roaches will only eat the protein when they need it. The problem occurs when people only give them cat food or some other silly thing like that. 

As for your opinion that its nonsense... I think its nonsense that with such a poorly worded argument, you think I'd care about your opinion. :lol2:


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## ZOO CENTRE (Apr 1, 2010)

jarich said:


> I guess I dont understand what exactly you are disputing. I never said high protein is some life threatening issue. I said its best to avoid the highest protein diets (cat food) and to _limit_ the amount of the dog food, which has a more reasonable protein amount.
> 
> Feeding them a high protein diet does cause them to increase their stored uric acid levels. As this is then something that your reptile has to process through its liver and kidneys, it _could_ possibly be an issue, especially for dehydrated animals. Dubias only require about 10-15% protein in their diet, so feeding them a constant supply of 30-40% protein is both unnecessary and useless. Again, its sort of a non-issue if fed in conjunction with fresh veggies, since as I already stated, the roaches will only eat the protein when they need it. The problem occurs when people only give them cat food or some other silly thing like that.
> 
> As for your opinion that its nonsense... I think its nonsense that with such a poorly worded argument, you think I'd care about your opinion. :lol2:


I know your opinion very well from the 'roachforum' (May 2012)- but there you wrote 15-20% of protein.: victory:

Show me some proof that 10-15% protein diet is better than 30%.
If I will do 2 groups than in the 30% group will be roaches in better condition,with more babies,bigger....:lol2:


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## marijan2 (Mar 2, 2013)

I have yet do discover something toxic to roaches. they could literally live through nuclear war :2thumb:

for some reason they do not like kiwi and hard cheese(like edamer) so i guess that is toxic to them in some small amount if digested

dubias are made of ~36% proteins, so imo if you feed them 15% protein dry food they will need it twice as much than they would eat 30% protein food. so unless you are having them on strict only cat/dog food diet there shouldn't be problem, they will decide how much and what to eat by themselves. fresh fruit/veggies should be provided as additional food every few days


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

Hmm the dog food is 21% protein, which really isn't all that much IMO? Though they only get it rarely anyway, but that's more because I forget to crush some up and put it in. They'd never get only dog food though, every day they get veg/fruit (what ever we have in) and a handful of each cereal (cornflakes, branflakes, oats or supermarket own weetabix), then I'll sometimes throw in some cat or dog biscuits.

Also why stay away from citrus? They seem to love oranges more than anything else?

I mean I suppose you get preservatives and such in cereal and the cheapo dog food I'd think, so I don't know the long-term impact of that.


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## ZOO CENTRE (Apr 1, 2010)

joeyboy said:


> Hmm the dog food is 21% protein, which really isn't all that much IMO? Though they only get it rarely anyway, but that's more because I forget to crush some up and put it in. They'd never get only dog food though, every day they get veg/fruit (what ever we have in) and a handful of each cereal (cornflakes, branflakes, oats or supermarket own weetabix), then I'll sometimes throw in some cat or dog biscuits.
> 
> Also why stay away from citrus? They seem to love oranges more than anything else?
> 
> I mean I suppose you get preservatives and such in cereal and the cheapo dog food I'd think, so I don't know the long-term impact of that.


If you have not there some water gel than some fruits or vegetables must be there all the time- THEY NEED IT AS DRINKING!

Yes I agree- the dubias love oranges.:2thumb: (I do not know some problems with citrus.)


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

A high protein feeder diet can lead to gout in some reptiles, especially chameleons. I feed mine tortoise pellets which are high in protein every few weeks with fruit and veg a few times a week and this seems to be working fine.

I think a company did a study and found roaches not fed oranges bred better than those who did.


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

ZOO CENTRE said:


> If you have not there some water gel than some fruits or vegetables must be there all the time- THEY NEED IT AS DRINKING!
> 
> Yes I agree- the dubias love oranges.:2thumb: (I do not know some problems with citrus.)


Yeah I have no water gel in there, they just get washed salad leaves (which I down pat dry so they've got water droplets all over them), cucumber, oranges (lots..), apples, potato, carrot etc. I put enough in so that the next day there is a little bit of fruit/veg left, then I chuck that and give them fresh each evening.

^^

oh really? I always heard, though it was from peoples person views, that roaches actually bred faster when given oranges.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Nutriton is a complex topic and all the varibles could never be coverd in a thread, feeding anything over and over again in excess isn't without its risks, and thats the bottom line of it, for me I have had a good reproduction rate by feeding cat biscuits, and a variety of fruits and veggys, with the odd handful of cerial being thrown in. 

As for the citric fruit issue, I think it is fair to say that it is likley going to be utalised completely differently in a different internal biology considering, and feeding 12-24-48 hours after is hardly going to be the end of the world, oranges are pumped with nutrition, the benefits far outweigh the bad points, every food has its positives and negatives, there are no perfect alternatives, and in the end it boils down to variety, and good supplementation and husbandry, to give the best end results.

Anyways to answer the origonal question, I have no idea! I think a bit of common sense would go a long way, and I would certainly hope your not going to feed them a box of jaffa cakes  lol.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Citrus oils are actually more of the problem, not so much the citrus fruit itself, so I guess I shouldve been more specific there. They do love the sugar in the fruit and the moisture, so they eat it quite readily. However, contained in citrus oil is a group of compounds known as monoterpenoids. These are neurotoxic to many types of roaches and can also cause poor development and breeding. Citrus and mint oils have been used for many years as natural roach repellents because of the presence of these monoterpenoids. Cutting off the skin/rinds should reduce the amount enough to keep it from being a problem, especially if fed in conjunction with other foods. 

Again, I wasnt ever stating that anyone take out the extra protein altogether. They can and will use the biscuits in conjunction with other foods. Just be aware of how much protein you are feeding them and the fact that they do have a natural inclination to build up uric acid with excess protein. This is not something you can look at a roach and see, its internal and its effects on your lizard will also be internal. In the end, the point is not to have the healthiest roach, the point is to have the healthiest reptile that feeds on the roach. These are sometimes the same thing, but not always. Feeding a bunch of cat food might give you big fat roaches, but if those big fat roaches are fatty uric acid blobs, you arent getting the end product you want, which is the healthiest food item for your reptile. As stated before, variety is the best idea as it alleviates shortcomings that might otherwise cause larger issues.


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

Could be worth a read? > The Roach Revolution Revelation (a theory about Reptile Gout) - Gecko Resource Forums < 

Personally I don't feed mine on any commercial pet food as most are pretty much cereals and additives (with some exceptions), although I hear people have success with this type of diet. Cockroaches love sweet things, so mine get sweet potato, oranges, mango, apple with a variety of leafy greens.

Can't say I know what's toxic to them - but I wouldn't feed them anything that I wouldn't feed omni/herbivorous reps.


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

jarich said:


> Citrus oils are actually more of the problem, not so much the citrus fruit itself, so I guess I shouldve been more specific there. They do love the sugar in the fruit and the moisture, so they eat it quite readily. However, contained in citrus oil is a group of compounds known as monoterpenoids. These are neurotoxic to many types of roaches and can also cause poor development and breeding. Citrus and mint oils have been used for many years as natural roach repellents because of the presence of these monoterpenoids. Cutting off the skin/rinds should reduce the amount enough to keep it from being a problem, especially if fed in conjunction with other foods.
> 
> Again, I wasnt ever stating that anyone take out the extra protein altogether. They can and will use the biscuits in conjunction with other foods. Just be aware of how much protein you are feeding them and the fact that they do have a natural inclination to build up uric acid with excess protein. This is not something you can look at a roach and see, its internal and its effects on your lizard will also be internal. In the end, the point is not to have the healthiest roach, the point is to have the healthiest reptile that feeds on the roach. These are sometimes the same thing, but not always. Feeding a bunch of cat food might give you big fat roaches, but if those big fat roaches are fatty uric acid blobs, you arent getting the end product you want, which is the healthiest food item for your reptile. As stated before, variety is the best idea as it alleviates shortcomings that might otherwise cause larger issues.


Ah I didn't realise that. I notice they make no attempt to eat citrus fruit peel so maybe it is unappetising, but I usually give the colony one small orange cut into quarters along with slices of apple, lettuce leaves, carrot, cauliflower..just anything really. Then a few handfuls of the mixed cereals, it would be interesting to know if any preservatives and such in the cereals are an issue and whether or not the vitamin/mineral fortification means the roaches are getting hypervitaminosis at all, probably not though as I imagine when they swarm over the food each roach is probably only eating a very small amount.


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## ZOO CENTRE (Apr 1, 2010)

vgorst said:


> Could be worth a read? > The Roach Revolution Revelation (a theory about Reptile Gout) - Gecko Resource Forums <
> 
> Personally I don't feed mine on any commercial pet food as most are pretty much cereals and additives (with some exceptions), although I hear people have success with this type of diet. Cockroaches love sweet things, so mine get sweet potato, oranges, mango, apple with a variety of leafy greens.
> 
> Can't say I know what's toxic to them - but I wouldn't feed them anything that I wouldn't feed omni/herbivorous reps.


This article is a promotion for the 'Bug Burger' Repashy Superfoods on the Repashy Reptiles Forums written by Allen Repashy :lol2:



Bradley said:


> A high protein feeder diet can lead to gout in some reptiles, especially chameleons. I feed mine tortoise pellets which are high in protein every few weeks with fruit and veg a few times a week and this seems to be working fine.
> 
> I think a company did a study and found roaches not fed oranges bred better than those who did.


Yes,a high protein feeder diet can lead to gout in some reptiles, especially chameleons - but there are more factors and we speak about feeding cockroaches.

Feeding tortoises by high protein diet is very dangerous- you could damage their shell development - pyramid carapace!:yeahright:


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

ZOO CENTRE said:


> This article is a promotion for the 'Bug Burger' Repashy Superfoods on the Repashy Reptiles Forums written by Allen Repashy :lol2:


Yep I'm aware. There's information on there regarding the whole 'high protein is bad' from someone that is not Repashy, and by all accounts knows his roaches - therefore probably won't have vested interest. That and the testing shows there is a problem associated with high protein in high doses and when combined with a moisture source


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Ideally there are many foods I would feed my roaches, unfortunately, the moisture of some foods seaps into the cardboard, and the next thing you know you have a fruit flie infestation and an encouragement of mold growth, maybe I am being selfish but not something I want in my home. :2thumb:


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## popitgoes (Oct 24, 2010)

The only thing I would never feed my roaches was coconut due to the coconut makin them dehydrated other then that I that I fed them most fruit n veg


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## antcherry88 (Mar 28, 2011)

Nobody has mentioned that roaches are specialists at living off of a very poor protein diet. They can synthesise all the protein they need from plant matter so there's really no need to feed them any protein at all. 

The uric acid storage is a result of this adaptation as they would rather store excess protein when they can than excrete it.

I personally think it's a bad idea to offer protein to roaches and even though there's no evidence to prove 'high protein roaches' (if there is such a thing) are bad for reptiles, it's not worth the risk to me. I'm confident roaches fed on fresh vegetables are as healthy and nutritious as any other.


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Ideally there are many foods I would feed my roaches, unfortunately, the moisture of some foods seaps into the cardboard, and the next thing you know you have a fruit flie infestation and an encouragement of mold growth, maybe I am being selfish but not something I want in my home. :2thumb:


I avoid cucumber for this reason or when I feed it I place it on top of a plastic lid in there. I had a fly issue, though not fruit flies, phorid flies is it? Not that one since though.

Well if more folks are saying animal protein isn't necessary I'll stick to feeding fruit/veg and my tesco value cereals/oats mix. For some reason I'd read somewhere that without some animal protein it would cause them to nip at each other or something haha.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

That is often true, if you aren't very aware of the protein in the diet your providing. Throwing in a handful of roach chow will keep that from happening


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

jarich said:


> That is often true, if you aren't very aware of the protein in the diet your providing. Throwing in a handful of roach chow will keep that from happening


yeah see that's why I gave a little ground up dog biscuits, it's only 22% protein anyways.

So do most people feed oranges or not? Mine just seem to love them so much. For example I chopped up an apple and put that in, they have only eaten about half and there are loads of them in there. Where as if I cut up two oranges they'd go mental and they'd be no trace by tomorrow, it just seems to be something they go after with a lot of enthusiasm, so it makes me thing they like citrus fruits.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Ya like I said before I don't see a problem adding the dog biscuits occasionally with a balanced diet. 

As for the oranges, I'd get rid of the rinds, but again mixed in with the balanced diet it should be fine. They love the sugar like little kids.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

I feed orange slices yes, and I feed cat biscuits along with a host of other fruits and veggys and other foods.

My insectivores are not solemly on a (just roach diet though) My guys get at least 4 insect types a week.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

antcherry88 said:


> Nobody has mentioned that roaches are specialists at living off of a very poor protein diet. They can synthesise all the protein they need from plant matter so there's really no need to feed them any protein at all.
> 
> The uric acid storage is a result of this adaptation as they would rather store excess protein when they can than excrete it.
> 
> I personally think it's a bad idea to offer protein to roaches and even though there's no evidence to prove 'high protein roaches' (if there is such a thing) are bad for reptiles, it's not worth the risk to me. I'm confident roaches fed on fresh vegetables are as healthy and nutritious as any other.


While I pretty much agree with this sentiment, I think your wording is a little confusing. There is a general assumption amongst alot of people that protein comes from animal foods, and that plant foods do not contain protein. Roaches do need protein ! But personally I find roaches do very well on a mix of veggies/fruits and chicken food (Chicken 'mash', powdered food for laying chickens). The chicken mash provides protein in the soya and cereals it contains. 

I am not saying a small amount of dog food will kill your roaches, or kill your reptiles. But do Dubia roaches look, or behave like carnivores ? Do you ever see them eating each other ? Remember dog/cat foods are designed to have enough protein for carnivore animals. I suspect most roaches are scavengers that feed mostly on vegetable/fruit matter. 

If you think roaches need animal foods/animal protein to grow, bare in mind all the milk, cheese, eggs and meat you eat, comes from animals eating a vegetarian diet !

If you feed dog/cat foods with water gels alone to your roaches, then in my opinion that will create very bad reptile food.


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## antcherry88 (Mar 28, 2011)

Dragon Farm said:


> While I pretty much agree with this sentiment, I think your wording is a little confusing. There is a general assumption amongst alot of people that protein comes from animal foods, and that plant foods do not contain protein. Roaches do need protein ! But personally I find roaches do very well on a mix of veggies/fruits and chicken food (Chicken 'mash', powdered food for laying chickens). The chicken mash provides protein in the soya and cereals it contains.
> 
> I am not saying a small amount of dog food will kill your roaches, or kill your reptiles. But do Dubia roaches look, or behave like carnivores ? Do you ever see them eating each other ? Remember dog/cat foods are designed to have enough protein for carnivore animals. I suspect most roaches are scavengers that feed mostly on vegetable/fruit matter.
> 
> ...


Well you're correct it is worded badly! 

You basically summed up what I meant, it's not necessary to go out of your way to feed your roaches what may be perceived as 'high protein animal feeds' such as dog biscuits etc etc. There's enough protein, or precursors to protein, in plant matter for their nutritional needs.


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

Cockroaches are classed as scavenging omnivores i.e. they'll eat whatever is on offer (within reason).

Roaches are very good at selective feeding, if you provide a range of different foods, they'll select what the require at that time to reduce nutrient imbalance. So providing dog/cat food is probably ok, as long as it's provided along with fruit and veg.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

I have been thinking about this over the last few days, and I have noticed a higher incidence of roach deaths in the past couple of months amongst three different species in my collection. The only difference I can think of in the care of them, is that I have been using a higher protein food in an attempt to get better growth. I am going to try the lower (12% protein) formula again and see if things improve.


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