# Retailers Gone!!



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Okay, now humour me if you may.

Not long back the thread 'No Shop Sales' was posted based on an Australian piece of legislation. This thread created an outcry.

Not long after, the warning about what Wales wanted to achieve - in so far as banning primate keepers, not wanting to see shops sell animals, etc, etc, and not much of an outcry was placed on that, why?

Well because you considered that to be true, where as mine you thought was not. The Australian one was backed by the RSPCA and created by the RSPCA in the UK. The Welsh Assembly debate group l believe, is financed by the RSPCA in the UK.

Now, being so close to the new year, this poll and its questions are aimed at a two year advance upon us now, its a 'what if?' poll.

So let us say that from January 1st 2010, the speculation of 'No Shop Sales' is with us, and that all Retailers are now very seriously restricted in what they can and can not do. These shops are being classed as Officially Authorised Code of Practice Retailers. Problem is they are fewer in number than the year we _*are*_ in [2007], and a goodly distance apart.

Let me know how seriously this [Much Fewer Retailers than now] would affect you and then explain why.

Also, please if you vote on the poll, please leave a view in the thread.

Thanks in advance for humouring me.

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby


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## SuperTed (Apr 19, 2007)

the only thing i use them for is food i could soon breed my own!


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Could possibly be a problem but not one that would be instantly recognised by me.

I don't tend to use retailers for anything other than fish food and basic supplies.

All that being said, if ithad of been 2 years ago I woul dhave faced a major problem but now I don't need a large supply of live food etc from shops.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

for me? small problems.. not vast ones...

tbh most of my visits to retailers are socials.. i rarely buy animals from "pet shops" as i can normally buy privately for less money.. and generally better stock..

livefood i tend to order online, or buy bulk..

about the only thing i use a retailer for regularly at the moment, is frozen chicks, and once i am up in lincs, with local large suppliers nearby, i doubt i will be putting much, if any, trade into retailers.

generally tho, i think it would cause a lot of problems for many.

N


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

I have voted "small problems" - most of my animals come from brokers or private breeders rather than shops so obtaining livestock wouldnt change much. 

Collecting equipment and livefood at short notice would be more of a problem, but this really depends on how internet sales are likely to be regulated, as I usually buy these things online if I have the time to wait for them. I cat imagine buying dry goods online would be problematic?

Really I would be more affected by stricter licensing of breeders, not shop-based retailers.

Without knowing precisely what "strict regulations" are likely to be put in place, whether this will impact on equipement availability or how internet retailers would be regulated it is difficult to predict how I would be affected. I realise we simply dont know all these things at the moment..


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

As this is a 'what if' scenario, and as such is open to all kinds of issues alone.

It could be said that if they were recognised as code of practice units, then there would be mighty changes to the non retailers themselves also.

We must not forget that should action like this become active, then the likelyhood of breeders and suppliers unlicenced, would be subjected to the same code of practice issues, and as such may exist in also a much reduced format, if they are allowed to operate at all.

Whilst l saw in another thread about 'a disappointed service', it must be remembered that the relationship between retailers and keepers should be enriched. I was annoyed myself at that thread for ldid wonder if instead of just walking out in a temper, why the buyer did not unleash his temper at the store, instead of grumbling away on a forum.

With what was written the buyer would have had just cause to complain to the store about the service or lack of?

Our futures are at best uncertain in the keeping of exotic companion animals, but l do feel in my opinion and it is shared by many others, that restrictions are en route, and that this would focus on retailers, breeders, suppliers and basically sellers.

Just because retail may be restricted, this does not mean that all others would not be, rather the opposite l feel, they would either be forced to licence or they would be shut down!

Licenced, recognised, authorised would be the way forwards for the industry as a whole, for it indeed would buck the ideas up of many right across the board that are not providing the 'service package they should be'.

I think the relationships between all need to be greatly improved upon, for if we do not practice that now, then we will find ourselves in sticky circumstances much later.

Rory


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## eowyn (Mar 2, 2007)

i voted small problems. 

i'm not a hobbyist - i currently only have one baby boa, and had a royal before that. (snake wise anyway) I ended up here because i am an enthusiast for any animsl i own, and i wouldn't buy an animal from a pet shop if i could help it - all my animals, snake or otherwise are from private breeders, and ideally i think most animal trade should be that way. I tend to only buy the odd thing from pet shops - fish food, millet spray if im stuck, that kind of thing. I dont see it being a problem really for anyone who takes their animals seriously. For those that dont, its probably a big problem, but for animal welfare thats not necissarily a bad thing. 

did that make any sense? hmm.

xx


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

I imagine even if all sales of live pet animals were stopped, shops would continue to sell dry goods, supplies, livefood, frozen food, etc. Plenty of shops do only sell supplies rather than live animals, so it's certainly not an impossible business plan.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

As a business owner, well it would be one mighty inconvenience for my business to fail especially as I haven't paid off my whopping great big loan yet..... but should it happen and be inevitable, I have enough qualifications personally to fall back into the boring drudgery of regular employment and just get on with my life.

As a hobbyist, it would make absolutely no difference to me if there were reptile shops locally or not, as I don't buy animals or equipment in shops anyway.

It's a callous way to look at it - but I would estimate a good 90% of the people who use the internet and forums like this are the "hobbyist" not the "single pet keeper", and have enough savvy to know that bricks and mortar shops can't compete with private breeders or online retailers.

If you were to poll the people who actually already still shop in reptile shops and don't consider themselves hobbyists, they just have 1 or 2 pets and like their individual pets, not reptile keeping as a whole.... you would find a vastly different answer.

I think this question is aimed at the wrong group, I would be suprised if anyone on these forums would be hugely inconvenienced by the loss of reptile shops unless they are actually financially entangled in one.


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## LeeH (Jan 26, 2005)

i think it will cause major problems to those who have no access to the internet or not part of groups like this where pet food is easy to find and livestock breeders can be sourced in areas from internet access so a pet shop is the main way many get their essentials and advice regarding pet animals
the good shops spend years building up a customer base too so that couyld be affected if shops are not around no more....
i personally use shops to buy petfood when i run out or need equipment fast without thinking of postage costs and all that...


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

In many ways you are right Athravan, perhaps aimed at the wrong group, for the time being it is aimed at retailer and keeper relationships.

This forum is just a splash in the ocean of the keepers, Rank has actually got in quite right, for those that do not rely upon the internet as a sales venue, but do rely upon the shop.

New keepers may be greatly reduced, if all shops were selling dry goods would there be the need for as many retailers in the first place?

Whilst this poll did not focus specifically on whether they were selling animals or not, it did focus on whether retailers would be present in the numbers they are today, which many may not be.

Licenced sellers is the way forwards full stop.

If we lost 50% of todays retailers through restrictions, it would be a friggin disaster even if not recognised by the immediate readership, and l think it is up to the reader to forecast ahead of their own personal situation and long range the affects of this 'what if'

R


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

For me, it would be a complete disaster - and not because I would be out of a job!

Every day I serve numerous customers that pop in for a box of crickets - they have no idea they can buy them online. Just one box for their one gecko - it would probably cost them more with postage anyway. 
They ask advice, tell me what they're worrying about, let me know how the kids are getting on at school, bring the dog in for a social visit, let me know how much their royal now weighs, how the eggs are, how the babies are, I help them think of names, what to get next, get the reptiles out for no reason other than that the kids love to meet them, help people over their fears and predudices... Where will all these people go? Who will help them? Who will they stop to have a chat to?
It's more than a shop sometimes, it feels a little like a social club on occasion - I love it!
People pop in for a wander, the interest sparks and a couple of weeks later they appear to get their first reptile, they'd never have gained the interest if they'd not visited.
I think the hobby will slow down massively without shops to get people started.


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## candoia aspera (Mar 5, 2007)

on a tangent the government have sent people to assess circus animals of which there is 47 working in this counry. six of which are snakes.

the govenment watchdog have said that all the animals were kept in a satisfactory condition. good for us,

of course the RSPCA's response wasn't very flattering saying that it didn't do a through enough investigation.

correct me if i'm wrong but if animal welfare groups can't stop circus animals being kept and manipulated for public ammusement, surely they can't force all the reptile shops closed in Wales.

surely they have thier beady little eyes on the puppy farms. for me that's a far higher priority to end that suffering and misery.

**candoia thinks for a second**

i'm thinking in logic, the RSPCA doesn't!


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## shiva&kaa123 (Jul 20, 2007)

Would lose my job, rep food source, reptile availability and all the other thing I'm sure I take completely for granted!
Ben


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

candoia aspera said:


> on a tangent the government have sent people to assess circus animals of which there is 47 working in this counry. six of which are snakes.
> 
> the govenment watchdog have said that all the animals were kept in a satisfactory condition. good for us,
> 
> ...


To be honest.

The focus of the RSPCA at present in Wales is not so much on the retailers, but on the likes of specialist keepers, such as primates. The latter would be the main area of concentration, is an area now, will continue to be an area until they succeed.

Without codes of practice in place which work as a defence for the pro keeping side and with the RSPCA's duty of care in action now, primates in Wales may become a victim of power and faster than most may think.

Puppy farms l agree, but also monkey farms, oh yeah they do exist in the UK believe it or not.

R


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

shiva&kaa123 said:


> Would lose my job, rep food source, reptile availability and all the other thing I'm sure I take completely for granted!
> Ben


Valid points from Ben and Ally, and of course Athravan, the employment aspect alone of up to 50% of retailers being shut down would be quite horrific.

R


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Athravan said:


> As a business owner, well it would be one mighty inconvenience for my business to fail especially as I haven't paid off my whopping great big loan yet..... but should it happen and be inevitable, I have enough qualifications personally to fall back into the boring drudgery of regular employment and just get on with my life.
> 
> As a hobbyist, it would make absolutely no difference to me if there were reptile shops locally or not, as I don't buy animals or equipment in shops anyway.
> 
> ...


An interesting thought raised by Athravan, lets put the boot on the other foot shall we?

So let us look at that shall we?

Let us take away the online sellers and the private breeders.

Still keep the licencing in place, say if hobbyists had to become licenced to trade from home? Fine...or is it?

What happens then as a licenced breeder supplier, you can then not particiapate in the show front?

Will this affect your business?

Oh of course as hobbyists you are not business's are you? You are selling your surplus's, aah hang on that is under todays' legislation, l am talking about NOW proposed 2010 legislation, where upon you may be classed as a PSLH - pet shop licence holder, abiding to a code of conduct.

And if you hold a psl, then you can not attend the shows circuit can you?

Now there is something eh?

Also would this affect private importers, they too are sellers, they too would have to hold PSL's.

So how would this affect you?

Makes interesting thinking, l think so anyway, for all the pieces of the puzzle are in fact in apparent consultation groups now as we speak, so none of what l write is made up, for as said these issues alongside many others are being raised within the secondary legislation papers.

Rory
PKL/PKA


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I will be devil's advocate. I think that anyone breeding and selling a certain amount of animals should have to have a license. Not a pet shop license perhaps, a breeders license - although pet shop licenses are by no means hard to get and many people do have them for their homes.

It is not in the animals best interest to be bred by people who do not know/understand what they are doing. It is not in the best interest of the general public to be sold animals by people who are unlicensed, unchecked, relatively unprotected against fraud or scams... you buy a snake that's sick, non feeding, or dies the next day from someone down the road and who do you turn to? 

With dogs, I believe it is if you breed 5 or more litters a year in my county that you need to be placed on a register. Why should large breeders be able to do it from home, pay no license fees, be unregulated, which means that a lot of the time people also fail to declare income or pay taxes, whilst someone who actually declares their business gets penalised.

I know many people who do attend the show circuit with a pet shop license, it is not as clear cut as that. I have been told my numerous organisers that I can attend with my own bred stock. I cannot attend as my business name, only as a breeder, selling animals I have bred. Not imports, not dealing, just those which I own the adults and I produced the babies.

But lets face it, if I really were playing devil's advocate then I would also be saying how disgusting the conditions are at the shows anyway, and an anti-s paradise. Don't know if anyone else was looking but I looked hard for antibacterial agents at Rodbaston and I saw one bottle on one table. I received no caresheets and no questions were asked about any of my purchases as to whether I even knew what I was buying - of course for Rodbaston you have to be an IHS member and they can assume that if you're a member of the IHS you have some experience or know how with reptiles, but it doesn't excuse lack of handwash, open plates of food and drink behind tables, people eating with one hand and holding a snake in another, people holding 2 snakes at the same time, and various other behaviour that would be the antis paradise.

People are proposing legislation and getting fuel from things that we are just handing to them on a plate. I get dozens of complaints from customers a WEEK about, I bought this from someone on the adtrader.. how do I look after it... my mates friends cousin bred this.. he told me this .. now it's not eating, what do I do... and about the conditions that people breed their animals in privately. The show conditions are quite frankly just pushing themselves towards getting it banned altogether. It would not be that hard for show organisers to say, you must provide a caresheet, you must provide a receipt with your contact details on it so they know where it's come from, you must not eat food at your table, and you must provide antibacterial handwash and use it between handling animals... or you don't trade with us. I also saw at least one person I know owns a pet shop and was not selling animals that he bred himself, so the rules aren't that strict on that either.

Sorry, I know only Rory reads my long posts anyway... I don't agree with the antis but I do think that the way things are right now is wrong in some respects and it's the hobbyist who fuels their fire.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Athravan said:


> I will be devil's advocate. I think that anyone breeding and selling a certain amount of animals should have to have a license. Not a pet shop license perhaps, a breeders license - although pet shop licenses are by no means hard to get and many people do have them for their homes.
> 
> It is not in the animals best interest to be bred by people who do not know/understand what they are doing. It is not in the best interest of the general public to be sold animals by people who are unlicensed, unchecked, relatively unprotected against fraud or scams... you buy a snake that's sick, non feeding, or dies the next day from someone down the road and who do you turn to?
> 
> ...


I think you are spot on Athravan, 

I do read the posts in this section, be they short or long. I think it is only fair to do so, for each reader and responder has something to say and if they have taken the time to write it, then readers should read it.

I don’t think it is Devils advocate that you play, l think it is accurate and precise and honest and truthful.

The points l am trying to put across is that the retailers serve a bloody big community, a darn site bigger than here, as said this forum is a mere splash in comparison to the overall market share of exotic companion animal keepers.

Hobbyists do fuel our problems, not just reptiles, but right across the fraternities. And if we wish to disengage these problems we must look very seriously into how they are created, emerge and commence. All keepers of animals fuel the fires of those who are against everything we do, keep and own. 

The shows, are quite simply refuelling points for trouble.

Unregulated sellers affect everybody, they do affect retail - l am not saying that there is a fear of competition here, what l am saying is that if you want to sell on the market place you should be licensed.

I want TSKA to be licensed, it will help us as a business, it will lend credibility to the business, it will assist keepers. I am currently reviewing all sorts of topics to do with my business now, should l be forced to become landbased, in case Internet selling is lost. And both l and Nerys will welcome a licence which ever it may be chosen to be awarded to my business. As to what licence that may be is anyones guess.

But this is the way forward for our futures and success’s as keeper sellers. Or in our case as consultants.

The shows are fast pushing themselves into the brink of non existence, for things are not up to scratch, and it is down to the societies to stop buggering about and make a harder stand against their members and implement codes of practice, harder rulings, more responsibility should be maintained at shows.

Antis love shows, why?

Because they are the right targets to show to those who oppose that keepers are not responsible sellers let alone keepers.

And what is a hobbyist in comparison to a seller?

One of my biggest questions, where is the overlap?

If societies are there for their members, well listen up guys, l would like to know when a keeper with surplus becomes a commercial overlap selling on a regular basis? Some sellers do appear to be very commercial, and this may be seen as somewhat deceptive to those who are straight forward keepers with surplus’s………..surely l am not the only one who sees and thinks this?


*"It would not be that hard for show organisers to say, you must provide a caresheet, you must provide a receipt with your contact details on it so they know where it's come from, you must not eat food at your table, and you must provide antibacterial handwash and use it between handling animals"*

The last show l was at was Norwich and pretty much complied with the above l have to say. But not all shows do.

Perhaps Societies themselves could supply small tubs of handwash at a price to those members who do not have any? You could do so and you know it.

Should hobbyists hold PSL’s?

No, but l agree you should hold some form of licence, so as to regulate you, so that you are a seller, and that you are following a code of practice, for if you are the latter then why should you not be at the shows?

I think that if we want to see shows survive, then we are going to have to become tougher on ourselves, and press into issues and demand things to be done, so that we can survive. And if you can not do that, then you will sink beneath the waves.

Rory Matier
PKL/PKA


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

Surely the government itself makes too much on tax and revenue to ever ban the selling of animals from shops? They are not going to bow to the demands of a minority if they see the chance for £££. If the net income of shops were to decrease then yes, maybe there could be the chance for some legislation to come into force but what's the chance? Money makes the world go round and whilst it does the very idea of a ban on shops is absurd. 

Oh and it would not effect me at all if they were all to be closed tomorrow. In some cases this wouldn't be the worst thing...the impact on the hobby though would be huge and far reaching. It would not be as simple as 'oh i can't go to the shop to buy that snake/lizard' as the market would crash and demand would fall...all back to the £££ sign again.


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## candoia aspera (Mar 5, 2007)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Puppy farms l agree, but also monkey farms, oh yeah they do exist in the UK believe it or not.
> 
> R


bloody hell. but then again i'm wondering why it's such a strange concept to me? certainly no more stranger than breeding snakes.

point taken


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

candoia aspera said:


> bloody hell. but then again i'm wondering why it's such a strange concept to me? certainly no more stranger than breeding snakes.
> 
> point taken


I was talking to someone who inspects the farms etc. in south wales and mid wales last week... he said there are a lot of ostrich farms in wales! (Which are DWA but whole hers of them) and also a herd of Bison breeding. There are some strange breeding facilities out there


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## Wullie (Nov 12, 2007)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> An interesting thought raised by Still keep the licencing in place, say if hobbyists had to become licenced to trade from home? Fine...or is it?
> 
> What happens then as a licenced breeder supplier, you can then not particiapate in the show front?
> 
> ...


surely the shows would have to change as if you say, hobbyists selling on surplus stock were licensed, there would be no-one to sell at the shows, therefore there would be no shows. surely the licenses would have to be categorized. ie, Pet shop (retail) and animal breeder (hobby) and records kept for checking turnover etc.

To get back to the shops not selling animals scenario, it would be a minor disaster for the hobby. My son purchased his first four snakes from our local shop over about 3 yrs (2 corns, 1 BRB and a royal) and that shop owner is still at the end of a phone if I need him. It wasnt until I replied to a classified ad (for a snake:lol2 that I got in touch with Den from this forum who put us in touch with a local club and we started meeting breeders and attending shows and finding forums like this. In short, it was the novelty factor of the shop selling snakes which started my boy on the mad herp collecting/breeding road he is on now. how many other prospective rep owners will miss out because of that?

hope that made sense and sorry if it has already been said as I replied before reading all the posts

Wullie


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## candoia aspera (Mar 5, 2007)

Athravan said:


> I was talking to someone who inspects the farms etc. in south wales and mid wales last week... he said there are a lot of ostrich farms in wales! (Which are DWA but whole hers of them) and also a herd of Bison breeding. There are some strange breeding facilities out there


 
aye, they all seem to be in wales too :rotfl:


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