# Converting a Juwel Fishtank to a Dartfrog habitat. How?



## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

Had Darts on the brain for the last couple of months and have started to amass bits of kit including a 60 x 40 x 30 Ent "style" viv in need of mods, but my mind keeps wandering to an unused fish-tank sitting in the garage.

Its a 100 x 45(h) x 40 Juwel Rio 180. I guess I should sell it to fund more PDF appropriate viv's, but I like it and have been thinking about how to turn it into a PDF habitat (some translation software might say "my wife thinks its a bonny tank and a nice group of Leucs might enchant enough to allow all the live-food cultures that are not in the house atm of course" )

Any and all advice/experience/random thoughts/slagging are welcome.

Me first issue is the lights (waterproof t8's built inside the habitat). Is that a no go?

Chris


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## Gaz_dbd (Apr 30, 2009)

All of my darts are in fish tanks that ive converted, including a 120x45x45

easiest way to do it is get some egg crate to make a false bottom (otherwise you need to drill the glass for drainage) sit that on some small sections of pvc pipe or tuperware containers if like me you can't cut straight for toffee, then you could also put a filter in there to create awater feature if desired but you need to leave access to it. then use weed fabric on top (dont use allow the water feature to drain through this as it doesnt work) then hydro lecca, then more fabric then plants and substrate

chances are somewhere you can get another tube to replace the one thats in the lid

i had that problem with my juwel 70L

hope this has helped


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## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

Cheers Gaz,

Considering the egg-crate route, but I'm leaning more towards drilling the tank and having a sump to store the heater, any pumps needed and a big old volume of water to slow things down. Changing my mind every 5 mins atm though.. :bash:

With the lighting its the standard Juwel placement im wondering about, ie the lights would be in the viv; no "operator" safety issues I can think of, in that they are waterproofed anyway, but would uncovered T8's present a danger to the frogs? 

I can see advantages to lights right inside the viv but there must be big downsides or everyone would be doing it? 

The lamps don't seem that hot. The Juwels middle brace bar could be cut out, making frog access to lights hard (suspect I might be very wrong with that one but got no frogs to watch to make a judgement  ).

How did you find the condensation on the front glass?

Chris


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## Gaz_dbd (Apr 30, 2009)

if you have a picture of the lid i could help a lot more, at the moment im just guessing its the same design as mine, tube with relfectors, and a remove able slot at the front of the lid?

the problem is the only suggestion i can come up with is to build a mesh cage for the tube, however this might limit acess to the tube for replacing ect

condensation is good as it helps you cage the humidity right for your frogs

i have never had the guts to drill a tank and set up a sump, 
my ideas change every 5 mins too, even when a tank has frogs in, ill be like "hmm that piece of wood might look great there" ect haha

im not too sure about the lights in the viv, i think its down to the hoods that people use, and the vivs they use too, looking at ent vivs, you cant cover the tube if its inside by the looks of it, and also a lot of people use specialised hoods, which have the starter and reflector inside, but obviously that can't be put in the tank

hope ive helped a bit

Gaz


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I have a Juwel tank, you can get around using the existing lighting, but it means fitting the new top underneat this, then drill the flaps with some extra holes to help air get into the top and thus the viv.

One thing I will warn you about, fish tank conversions tend to retain humidity better than purpose made vivs, so either mist by hand as needed, or put a ball valve on a line from your misting system so you can only turn it on every few days (what I have done on my Sisa viv), otherwise you will find broms rot.

My Sisa viv is also a converting tank, and had the same flappy top system as a Juwel, this is how I did mine:-










A Juwel will be easier to do though as you wont have the rims like that one, you can just silicone stuff directly to the plastic. If it's a rectangualr or cubed tank it will be really really easy to do. lol

Ade


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

Dammit Guys.

I have a Rio 300 in my tropical shed with angels and plecs in at the moment. Permanent hot & cold running fruit flies and bean weevils for my slings. Shed heated to 20C.
All this talk makes me think how good would it look as a PDF set-up. Hmmmmm.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Lucky Eddie said:


> Dammit Guys.
> 
> I have a Rio 300 in my tropical shed with angels and plecs in at the moment. Permanent hot & cold running fruit flies and bean weevils for my slings. Shed heated to 20C.
> All this talk makes me think how good would it look as a PDF set-up. Hmmmmm.


Come over to our side :devil:


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## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks Gaz, yes its same old same Juwel design with a central ballast ,lights either side and floppy plastic lids above. I hear what your saying about the mesh cover and appreciate Ades pictures of his mods but i'm still unsure why i need to put a barrier between the frogs and lights in the first place?

Will they burn themselves by leaning on it?, like a few fish species will do with an aquarium heater or is there some other reason?

Thanks,

Chris


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## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

Double post ..
Chris


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## Gaz_dbd (Apr 30, 2009)

its pretty much to stop burning, frogs have incredibly thin skin so they easily burn, its better to be safe then sorry,

does it have a part where is sits onto the top which has an overhang all the way around, if it does then you can easily mesh or use this to secure the barrier so as to prevent too close proximity to the light.

also a word of advice (speaking from experience) always make sure that the gaps (mine had 2 big holes either side for this) for cables ect are covered some way to prevent escapes - lost my first leuc this way


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## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

This condensation issue. Anyone have experience/thought on using fans? can they clear the front glass and does introducing circulation of very humid air stop Ade's "Brom Rot" ?

Chris


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## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks Gaz.

Hear what your saying about the thin skin but do PDF's actually burn themselves on t8 lights or is this barrier all down to "being better safe than sorry" thinking? Then there's all that UVB stuff and barriers blocking it. AAgghhhhh.. 

I could put a mesh or mesh/glass layer between the lights and frogs but I really want to know why im doing it b4 i do.

Hear you on the escape routes. Thanks.

Chris


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Come over to our side :devil:


There are no sides...............just a few blurry boundaries at the moment!


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## Gaz_dbd (Apr 30, 2009)

Im not too sure, i have a feeling they might burn, not too sure if anyone had any first hand experience of their frogs burning though. 

dart frogs only need minimal amounts of UVB so there isnt too much of a worry if you have the right bulb

as for the covering, you are better off with mesh as glass tends to remove all UVB and most useable wavelengths, unless you use something like optiwhite (best off asking richie b or ade about that though)

Eddie JOIN US!! you know you want to!!


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Sandsifter said:


> Thanks Gaz.
> 
> Hear what your saying about the thin skin but do PDF's actually burn themselves on t8 lights or is this barrier all down to "being better safe than sorry" thinking? Then there's all that UVB stuff and barriers blocking it. AAgghhhhh..
> 
> ...


Because if you don't the frogs WILL perch on the lights and WILL burn, or at the least dehydrate themselves, to death on them.

As to UVB, well for one thing it is NOT essential on a PDF viv, keepers rely more on supplements. In fact, too much UV is now believed to be harmful, especially for tadpoles. However if you do want to provide a low level of UVB, then you simply use either optiwhite glass or solacryl for the top, both of which pass a very high quantity of UV.

These aren't fish you are dealing with here, you have to take some extra precautions.

Ade


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

Gaz_dbd said:


> Eddie JOIN US!! you know you want to!!


:notworthy:

I am no stranger to darts and mantellas. I used to have a few 10years ago, and Phelsumas.

Its amazing how much the hobby has moved on in that time. More species available, plus CB's, plus they are sooooooo much cheaper now for the commoner species.

Just a shame the price of gold dust days has gone exponential in the same time!


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Sandsifter said:


> Thanks Gaz.
> 
> Hear what your saying about the thin skin but do PDF's actually burn themselves on t8 lights or is this barrier all down to "being better safe than sorry" thinking? Then there's all that UVB stuff and barriers blocking it. AAgghhhhh..
> 
> ...


 Yes, they can burn themselves. Plus, all frogs are amazingly adept at climbing through tiny gaps- a mesh lid is easier to make secure. A few years back I kept reed frogs in a tall tank with the original lid. For that tank, I cut a big panel out of a drip tray, and siliconed mesh over the gap (it was one of those triangular corner tanks, so this was the easiest way to make sure it fit snugly). Easy peasey!:2thumb:


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## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

Wolfenrook said:


> Because if you don't the frogs WILL perch on the lights and WILL burn, or at the least dehydrate themselves, to death on them.
> 
> 
> Ade


Thanks for all the opinions  Much appreciated :2thumb:

I hear what you Ron and Gaz are saying about frogs burning themselves through perching , but it seems highly unlikely you guys would allow that to be a risk, so where is the evidence for frogs killing themselves by perching too near a lamp? Is this some kind of theoretical risk based on assumption, or is there evidence PDFs will fry themselves rather than move away?

Chris


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I don't need evidence of them killing themselves on lamps, for the simple reason I have actually spent time WATCHING poison dart frogs, rather than trying to outguess everybody.

Poison dart frogs for the most part will leap onto and perch on ANY object they can reach. Given that they can climb vertical glass surfaces and leap surprisingly large distances, it's pretty obvious that they WILL land on the lights eventually. If you had spent ANY real time watching darts you would understand this, and wouldn't be here challenging everything from a position of zero experience. As to perching NEAR to a light, my darts do this quite regularly, but luckily my lights are OUTSIDE of the vivs and with sufficient space so that the glass doesn't get hot (heating glass with lights can cause it to crack), so no harm is done. Whether they would move away or not is moot, for the simple reason that T5, T8, compact bulbs etc get that hot that even momentary contact is sufficient to cause a burn TO A HUMAN let alone a very sensitive skinned amphibian.

But heh, if you think you know better, do whatever you wish, but please don't come crying when your frogs are killed or injured.

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

An old viv I had years ago had unshielded bulbs as part of the heating lighting system for treefrogs. Every morning before I switched the lamps on, I had to shoo the frogs off of the lightbulbs- obviously so far as they were concerned, they were ideal roosts! Fortunately, this was before timers became so cheap and freely available, or there would have been cooked frog as the bulb came on automatically. Evidence enough for you?:whistling2:


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## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

Ron Magpie said:


> An old viv I had years ago had unshielded bulbs as part of the heating lighting system for treefrogs. Every morning before I switched the lamps on, I had to shoo the frogs off of the lightbulbs- obviously so far as they were concerned, they were ideal roosts! Fortunately, this was before timers became so cheap and freely available, or there would have been cooked frog as the bulb came on automatically. Evidence enough for you?:whistling2:


Yes. Ta


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## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

Wolfenrook said:


> I don't need evidence of them killing themselves on lamps, for the simple reason I have actually spent time WATCHING poison dart frogs, rather than trying to outguess everybody.
> 
> Poison dart frogs for the most part will leap onto and perch on ANY object they can reach. Given that they can climb vertical glass surfaces and leap surprisingly large distances, it's pretty obvious that they WILL land on the lights eventually. If you had spent ANY real time watching darts you would understand this, and wouldn't be here challenging everything from a position of zero experience. As to perching NEAR to a light, my darts do this quite regularly, but luckily my lights are OUTSIDE of the vivs and with sufficient space so that the glass doesn't get hot (heating glass with lights can cause it to crack), so no harm is done. Whether they would move away or not is moot, for the simple reason that T5, T8, compact bulbs etc get that hot that even momentary contact is sufficient to cause a burn TO A HUMAN let alone a very sensitive skinned amphibian.
> 
> ...


Hi Ade, thanks for your frog behaviour observations; they are welcome and informative :2thumb:

So a cover it is then.

Thanks 

Chris


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## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

Still confused by this exposed lights issue;


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/779132-talk-about-surprises-4.html



> There is no cover between my tank and lights.
> The Leucs often climb up beside the lights for a wander which was originally a concern of mine.
> So far though they`ve had no problems with the heat.


My gut instinct is that it will be no problem but what do I know at the end of the day? not a lot..

Juwel tanks have to be one of the most common aquariums in the UK at the moment and a lot of potential dart keepers are going to own one.

Downsides compared with buying a purpose built dart viv are obvious but can they be overcome? 

A big upside for the frogs has to be their size ?


Chris


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Sandsifter said:


> Still confused by this exposed lights issue;
> 
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/779132-talk-about-surprises-4.html
> ...


If you can rig some sort of screening between the actual tank and the light hood, that should solve the problem.

On one tall tank I used for reed frogs, I cut out the shape I wanted from the plastic drip tray, and siliconed fine-ish mesh over the hole. It worked fine- light was relatively free to enter (mesh does cut some, but not all) and it improved ventilation too, but still kept the frogs away from the lights.


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## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

It also introduces a barrier to maintenance though? That's got to be a negative surely?

Most fish do not burn themselves on heaters but a few species do.

The only example of Leuc's and uncovered lights I've seen so far is Mike's Viv and it seems to work?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Sandsifter said:


> *It also introduces a barrier to maintenance though? That's got to be a negative surely?*
> 
> Most fish do not burn themselves on heaters but a few species do.
> 
> The only example of Leuc's and uncovered lights I've seen so far is Mike's Viv and it seems to work?


What, lifting up a drip tray? Is that such an insurmountable barrior? I really don't understand why you are determined to do it, but if you are, you are. I just hope your frogs survive without injury or worse.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Sandsifter said:


> Thanks for all the opinions  Much appreciated :2thumb:
> 
> I hear what you Ron and Gaz are saying about frogs burning themselves through perching , but it seems highly unlikely you guys would allow that to be a risk, so where is the evidence for frogs killing themselves by perching too near a lamp? Is this some kind of theoretical risk based on assumption, or is there evidence PDFs will fry themselves rather than move away?
> 
> Chris


Do you need evidence?

Lamps are hot and dry, frogs need humidity and are stupid. Risk = High.


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## marcuswinner1 (Sep 24, 2009)

My Tricolor viv that they have been in for 2 years now was a Juwel aquarium. 

I just cut a big piece of netting to the right size and siliconed it to the background. It is held in place on the other three sides by simply laying it across the tank before the lid is put on. I cut a square hole in the middle of it so that I can feed the Frogs through the top flap but they can't get out (never seen them climbing upside down). 

If I need to do any work in the tank I simply remove the lid and fold it back out of the way. Simple. :2thumb:

Theres plenty of things to worry about with Darts so it makes sense to shorten the list as much as possible Chris.


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## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

Ron Magpie said:


> What, lifting up a drip tray? Is that such an insurmountable barrior? I really don't understand why you are determined to do it, but if you are, you are. I just hope your frogs survive without injury or worse.


Hi Ron, I'm not determined to do it at all; just fishing for other peoples experiences with Juwel tanks and trying to work out if the conversion effort required makes it a sensible option. Got no intention of putting any frog in a viv I'm not confident about   I'm happy to look a fool and repeatedly ask a "silly" question until I get to that point.. though it must drive some/all of you mad :whistling2:

Its not an insurmountable barrier but it potentially adds another wee thing that stop's things getting done as often as they should. Really don't like that. 

Mikes "free range" Leuc set-up fascinates me and given he is not running covers under the lights then it seems a bit daft not to ask again. 

Big decisions to make and lights just one. Correct me if im wrong Ron,( I've done so much reading on darts that I can't remember who said what advice) but your an advocate of chucking wild collected leaf litter and the like straight into the viv. Marcus does that but checks as best he can for slugs/snails etc? Would that be about right?

But American forums are full of dire warnings on the need to boil/sterilise anything going into a viv. (I'm guessing Stu chucks in pretty much anything with a proven organic heritage and looks" froggy".)

Just trying to get my head around it all Ron. No intention of harming any frog by not putting in the research m8.

Chris


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## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

marcuswinner1 said:


> My Tricolor viv that they have been in for 2 years now was a Juwel aquarium.
> 
> I just cut a big piece of netting to the right size and siliconed it to the background. It is held in place on the other three sides by simply laying it across the tank before the lid is put on. I cut a square hole in the middle of it so that I can feed the Frogs through the top flap but they can't get out (never seen them climbing upside down).
> 
> ...


Thanks for that :2thumb:

Chris


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## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Do you need evidence?
> 
> Lamps are hot and dry, frogs need humidity and are stupid. Risk = High.


Frogs have a say in where they put themselves. Not convinced they are "stupid".

Fish tank heaters are hot but very few "stupid" species burn themselves on them. Ones that do are usually stressed out things like Syno cats that are given no other choice of cover so cling to the only cover in the tank.

Chris


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