# a bit of a moan cross breed and pure breed prices



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

what the hell is going on when a cross breed is going to cost £500+ and a pure breed is costing less!!!! why would anyone want to buy something that they don't know the history for so don't know if they are any hereditary diseases instead of going for a breeder that understands there chosen breed and makes sure they are no problems in the line i just cant get my head around it i really cant at the end of the day a cross is just a mongrel 

Moan over.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

because alot of people that buy from these people are fooled into believing that its a new breed by the person selling 80% of the time they are also daft with their money 

i have come aross many peeps with peeps with mal x huskies thinking they are full mals and they have blue or bi eyes and paid £900 for a x thinking it was a pure pred and the papers were in the post :bash:


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## ferretmuppet (Jul 20, 2008)

i wouldnt pay £500 for a x breed, but there again i certainly wouldnt buy a pedigree dog 

i have 2 mutts and they are super healthy and very loving  and were both free, perfect pets


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## ogawa only (Jun 4, 2008)

have you seen the price of a frenchie crosse's !!! 1k +


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

bosshogg said:


> what the hell is going on when a cross breed is going to cost £500+ and a pure breed is costing less!!!! why would anyone want to buy something that they don't know the history for so don't know if they are any hereditary diseases instead of going for a breeder that understands there chosen breed and makes sure they are no problems in the line i just cant get my head around it i really cant at the end of the day a cross is just a mongrel
> 
> Moan over.


 Even with a purebred dog there are no guarantees that you won't get hereditary problems. Some purebreeds cost as little as £150.
The thing is that with a first cross, you have an idea as to temperament and size. There is also the fact that because of hybrid vigous you are less likely to have hereditary problems.

You try buying a chihuahua for less than £500 or a well bred hasa apso. You won't do it.
A lot depends on the cross or the breed. With pure working bred springers, GSD, rotties and staffies going for as little as £200 but with all the herdeditary health problems they suffer from and with loads ending up in rescue, if your choice of dog is based purely on what they cost, then you wouldn't want to pay £500 for any dog no matter if it is a carefully considered first cross from expensive well bred parents, or a top quality purebred.
It's horses for courses. Some want any old dog as long as it doesn't cost more than £200, like my dozy brother in law who bought a 'pedigree' GSD (or Alstatian as he calls it) and at 7 years old, it can barely stand because it has terrible hip and elbow displaysia, or you want a smaller, well bred pup from someone who takes care to ensure her breeding stock is free from hereditary diseases and who breeds from only good healthy stock, sound in mind and body, then spends a fortune on rearing the pups properly and who paid £1300 for their stud dog in the first place.
And you are showing your ignorance. A cross breed is not a mongrel nor ever has been. It is a 1st cross between 2 purebred parents. A mongrel is a dog with no discernable purebred ancestry.
With a mongrel you won't be able to tell what size or shape the pups will end up, nor have any idea what the temperament will be like. With a first cross, you will have a good idea of size, shape and temperament. I have pictures og my lha-chi pups from the last 3 litters and they all look the same or similar.
How do you think purebred dogs came about? It was by crossing certain breeds with the same traits so that it became standardised like the jack russell or border collie most recently.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Hmmm I love mongrels as you never know how they will turn out and have a sprollie(Springer spaniel x border collie) now sold as a designer dog(free to me) but not a cross that should ever happen.As sweet as Loony Lucy is she is so hyper and rushes to do everything.She isnt sure if she should retrieve or herd .She reminds me of Dory out of Finding Nemo film very silly and a bit forgetful.She would herd your sheep then forget where she left them or retrieve game but forget where she was going. I do agree though that small X breed dogs are now going for more than a pedigree but most havent even been vaccinated.


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## Zoexxx (Nov 20, 2007)

A friend of mine has just bought a shih tzu x poodle - a Pooshi apparently !

She paid £600 for it, so i said, bloody hell, my Mother in law's looking at kc registered pedigree yorkies for £500, why on earth would you pay £600 for a x breed ??

She said, it's not a cross breed, it's a designer dog !! Think they saw her coming, funniest thing is she went back at the weekend for another one lol


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

My mates got a Cockerpoo and I think it cost around £600...But then I paid £550 for a SBT. I wish the RSPCA would of let me have one of the rescues it would of saved me alot of money.


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Makes me so angry, I breed occassionally all my dogs are DNA profiled to prove their heritage, DNA tested for a recessive disease present in the breed so that I never produce an affected animal, add to that eye tests, hip scoring and thyroid testings I do for my own benefit ie not required by the kc or breed club.

All the above costs me £300 per animal before I even rear them to see if they fulfill their potential confirmation wise, train them, show them for 3 yrs THEN breed! Pups leave with an extensive contract, microchipped, wormed, flea treated with enough of both to do them for another 6mths, food for a few mths, they've already been separated from their siblings at night so they don't cry, had a lead on, been out in the car to meet and greet etc anything I feel would be a good experience for them BEFORE they leave me making life easier for the pup and new owners, as well as their KC registration, 6 wks free insurance and their pedigree nicely printed out - all we charge for our guys is £500!

Like to see a designer breed owner do the same before they rob potential owners of their hard earned money, oh and a return to breeder anytime during their life should they need to be rehomed or assistance with said rehoming if they prefer? I don't think so they're just money grabbing *&%^


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## gwinni (Oct 8, 2007)

It's nuts is what it is! I must be very lucky out of all the dogs i've had the most i paid was £50 that was for a black lab pup, the person paid over a grand for the mother as she was such a good working dog but couldn't be bothered to register the pups. The only other dogs i paid for was £20 for jack and his sis lauren, was only meant to be getting lauren but guy phoned the night before saying there was a dog pup left and did me and my partner at the time want him, he said no i said yes so we picked them both up. Every other dog has been free including a pedigree (with papers) GSD. There's no such thing as designer dogs just people trying to get extra cash out of stupid folk who believe what they're buying is "designer".


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I dont think its particularly wrong for people to buy and sell them though...I think its wrong for people to buy them because they are 'designer' though.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Schip said:


> Makes me so angry, I breed occassionally all my dogs are DNA profiled to prove their heritage, DNA tested for a recessive disease present in the breed so that I never produce an affected animal, add to that eye tests, hip scoring and thyroid testings I do for my own benefit ie not required by the kc or breed club.
> 
> All the above costs me £300 per animal before I even rear them to see if they fulfill their potential confirmation wise, train them, show them for 3 yrs THEN breed! Pups leave with an extensive contract, microchipped, wormed, flea treated with enough of both to do them for another 6mths, food for a few mths, they've already been separated from their siblings at night so they don't cry, had a lead on, been out in the car to meet and greet etc anything I feel would be a good experience for them BEFORE they leave me making life easier for the pup and new owners, as well as their KC registration, 6 wks free insurance and their pedigree nicely printed out - all we charge for our guys is £500!
> 
> Like to see a designer breed owner do the same before they rob potential owners of their hard earned money, oh and a return to breeder anytime during their life should they need to be rehomed or assistance with said rehoming if they prefer? I don't think so they're just money grabbing *&%^


yes i totally agree my friend had an accident litter of a cocker x labrador and i have seen this advertised for over £300 were he sold them for £50 and there all went to good homes still ...so why charge the extra £250??

and fenwoman i wasn't having ago at you! i am just fed up at seeing adds for crosses for silly money.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Schip said:


> Like to see a designer breed owner do the same before they rob potential owners of their hard earned money, oh and a return to breeder anytime during their life should they need to be rehomed or assistance with said rehoming if they prefer? I don't think so they're just money grabbing *&%^


 Was your abusive and offensive post directed at me? If so I certainly don't appreciate it since my puppies all go innocuolated microchipped insured and the potential owners have to sign a legally binding document agreeing to bring the dog back to me at any age for any reason if they cannot keep it. In over 20 years breeding dogs, my terms have been exactly the same and are not negotiable. I guess I must be doing something right if I have vets and dog trainers and the like buying pups off me and recommending me. Money grabbing? So if we both charge the same for a pup and my breeding criteria are the same as yours, are you saying that you are money grabbing too? Or perhaps you are less than honest about how much it costs to rear a puppy? I can assure you that it has not cost me £300 to rear a puppy and personally I cannot see how it costs you that.
There are more than enough bad purebred breeders out there willing to scam buyers. I would class myself as someone who knows what they are doing, is uber fussy about who gets invited to view the pups and am happy to refuse a sale as I often do if I'm not 100% sure about the potential new owner. Why do you imagine that only purebred dog breeders do it for 100% altruistic reasons?
I have never 'robbed' anyone of their money. The breeding has always been explained and the parents, granny and previous siblings are here to be seen.
Plenty of purebred dog breeders don't have the father or soetimes not even the mother to the pups, charge top price and the owners come away with nothing more than the pups. No vaccinations, microchip, insurance, caresheets, bag full of all the food the pup has been having including frozen goat milk, tripe and free range eggs.
At the end of the day it is up to the individual what they spend their money on. Be it a £900 rare breed kitten, £150 purebred dog or £500 crossbred pup. Why does anyone feel they have the right to dictate where people spend their money or what breeds they should buy? Personally there are some pedigree breeds I wouldn't want to won even if they came with a lifetimes worth of the veterinary care they will need. Been there and done that on the purebred championship show winning bitchy back biting breeds. Now I'm happily producing happy, healthy well rounded 1st cross lha-chi pups and have been for the last 4 years successfully.It isn't all about money or else I'd have gone into purebred chihuahuas at £1500 a throw.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

bosshogg said:


> yes i totally agree my friend had an accident litter of a cocker x labrador and i have seen this advertised for over £300 were he sold them for £50 and there all went to good homes still ...so why charge the extra £250??
> 
> and fenwoman i wasn't having ago at you! i am just fed up at seeing adds for crosses for silly money.


 Well everything has a value. Things sell for what people are willing to pay. If you want to sell your car and you know you would get £2000 for it. Would you really sell it for £500 because you can't see why you should charge the extra £1500?
I do get cross sometimes when people are downright rude and insulting over something which, even if they had the money, they wouldn't want to buy. Why get yourself all upset about the price of a little tiny fluffy designer dog which you wouldn't want to own if you got one for free? If someone is happy to pay £500 for one, then why shouldn't they do so?
Why should I give them away for free or for less than the price of a dogs home donation when I have gone to the trouble of sourcing well bred stock in the first place, and providing as much care for them in their rearing as any breeder of show dogs does?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoexxx said:


> A friend of mine has just bought a shih tzu x poodle - a Pooshi apparently !
> 
> She paid £600 for it, so i said, bloody hell, my Mother in law's looking at kc registered pedigree yorkies for £500, why on earth would you pay £600 for a x breed ??
> 
> She said, it's not a cross breed, it's a designer dog !! Think they saw her coming, funniest thing is she went back at the weekend for another one lol


 I'm assuming that your friend doesn't want a yorkie? That she wants the particular cross that she bought for whatever reason? So why should she not spend her money on exactly what she wants instead of spending £100 less on something which she doesn't want?
Should I smirk at my neighbour who just went out and spend several thousand quid on a mercedes when I only spent £900 on my old Frontera.Perhaps I should because her car is far too small, wouldn't get any bales of hay in the back and costs a ridiculous amount of money. She could have got a Frontera for several thousand less.Silly people.The car dealers saw them coming.It isn't even a 4X4.Tsk


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Why would you breed mongrels for what purpose? 

I breed rarely there aren't enough homes out there as it is without conning folk into thinking they're getting in on the ground level of some new designer breed! Or that hybrid vigor ensures the dog will be healthier than a purebred one, erm no each pup is suspectable to health issues related to both breeds used to produce it.

Premating suitability testing over £300! To produce a litter with no emergency c section or problems would be in the region of £1200 for a first litter in my breed including premating testings.

Of course the designer breeders would find it very difficult " sourcing well bred stock" if it were not for the show, working, obedience, breeders out there who care for their chosen breed enough to go to the trouble and cost of using the tests available in a bid to produce healthy happy long living animals.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

fenwoman as i see it your the one been abusive none of my posts have been directed at you at you all i was doing was having a moan at ads i have come across on the web, and its not that i dont little dogs i love jack russles and i my childhood dog was a skye terrier x, what i am against is people selling designer dogs for huge amounts of money

i could sell me oure bred labs with 28FTCH in the ped for £450 but i dont sell them at £250-300 as a home is more important than the money


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

I'm going to be hugely unpopular but.......

There was around 12,000 dogs destroyed last year, they are just the known dogs not including the ones who are destroyed off the record. Please dont think these are all bull breeds, rotties, collies and GSDs with issues because there not, there various breeds of various ages.

Thats allot of dogs, too many for my liking, one dog dying is too many.

So I'm antibreeding atm.

Whilst people keep breeding dogs will continue to die becuase there just isnt the rescues/homes for them. I get especially annoyed with anyone breeding staffies/bull breed crosses because pounds are over flowing with them and rescues just wont take them due to them not homing quickly or have enough of there own already.

You can get nearly any shape, size, colour, age, breed of dog from rescue.

And there are allot of different rescues who will home all over the country. 

Hats off to the breeders who put work into there breeding, pups and homes and will take there dogs back if there are any problems.
But I still cant agree with it just a yet.

And designer breeds usualy equal designer health problems


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

marthaMoo said:


> I'm going to be hugely unpopular but.......
> 
> There was around 12,000 dogs destroyed last year, they are just the known dogs not including the ones who are destroyed off the record. Please dont think these are all bull breeds, rotties, collies and GSDs with issues because there not, there various breeds of various ages.
> 
> ...


add huskies and malamutes to your list too...............they are such a demnding dog that most unless specified breed rescuse wont take them in or if they do destroy them as its so hard to rehome them to the right home


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

I know Emma, seeing more and more of them needing to come in.

Mainly in Wales as the puppy farmers are breeding them and there crosses. And there ending up in the most horrific homes. One I heard of recently is being kept in a cage in a back garden with no shelter all day every day. Allot of people like the look of them, buy the cute puppies then have no idea how much imput they need. By the time they work out they cant cope sometimes its too late for them to be helped as they have gone crazy.
And not that many mainstream rescues will take them on as there not experienced enough to look after them or home them.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

marthaMoo said:


> I know Emma, seeing more and more of them needing to come in.
> 
> Mainly in Wales as the puppy farmers are breeding them and there crosses. And there ending up in the most horrific homes. One I heard of recently is being kept in a cage in a back garden with no shelter all day every day. Allot of people like the look of them, buy the cute puppies then have no idea how much imput they need. By the time they work out they cant cope sometimes its too late for them to be helped as they have gone crazy.
> And not that many mainstream rescues will take them on as there not experienced enough to look after them or home them.


 
I know it breaks my heart 

I hate the damn puppy farmers for making a mockery of such fantastic gorgas dogs............they are that inbreeding them without a care that some right monstroseties are coming about 

sibes are a playful but placid dog they dont have an aggressive nature but more and more are coming through with them because of damn puppy farmers arrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggg gets me so god damn mad as you can tell 

yes i know what you mean on the wales side of things as there are alot of notorious puppy farmers round there who are very disliked by the siberian husky and malamute community 

but thing is nothing can be done about them they just carryon popping pup after pup out of their poor bitches to line thier pockets :bash:

sorry for the rant lol its your fault missmoo you set me off hahahaha


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## ceratogyrus (Mar 4, 2008)

i cannot believe what is going on with mutt prices today. a bloody labradoodle??????? wtf is that? a mongrel fetching stupid money down here when not so long ago these could not be given away. also JRTs fetching in the region of £200 per pup.

also old unwanteds have a price tag on them now. and rescue centers having fees and are really fussy where they rehome what i.e. will not rehome a dog where there are cats etc etc etc.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

ceratogyrus said:


> i cannot believe what is going on with mutt prices today. a bloody labradoodle??????? wtf is that? a mongrel fetching stupid money down here when not so long ago these could not be given away. also JRTs fetching in the region of £200 per pup.
> 
> also old unwanteds have a price tag on them now. and rescue centers having fees and are really fussy where they rehome what i.e. will not rehome a dog where there are cats etc etc etc.


 
I understand the fee's and totally agree with them as when they did the free homing people were adopting animals then selling them on to make a profit 

so i 100% agree on rehoming and adoption fee's : victory:

but i do think that rehoming centres can be a lil too fussy with rehoming animals too especially to say there are so many animals needing homes and many people that would help and take them on but are turned down due to silly reasons :bash:


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## ceratogyrus (Mar 4, 2008)

fees are ok but over £100 for an old dog???????
i know what you mean about silly reasons, "you cannot rehome this dog on your farm as it may one day get skat over by a tractor" lol


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

ceratogyrus said:


> fees are ok but over £100 for an old dog???????
> i know what you mean about silly reasons, "you cannot rehome this dog on your farm as it may one day get skat over by a tractor" lol


LOL yups them kinda daft excuese 

yeah i see your point on the price but there are centres that do rehome for smaller fees its finding the right places :lol2:


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I was going to breed my GSD (who I paid over £500 for, having parents hip scored, eye tested, and full parentage that I researched fully, but really, when thinking about it, I am not comfortable breeding any dog at the moment having worked with rescues, done fostering, and seen how many dogs are being destroyed. So I decided to leave it, because I can't really feel responsible with breeding at the moment, I am happy with the amount of high quality GSD bloodlines in the UK from responsible breeders and don't feel that my bitch is needed to contribute to the ongoing pool, although I am not spaying her quite yet.

I can't really see many reasons for breeding at the moment unless you are working with a breed for which there is need to keep the bloodline going, or have exceptionally good qualities which need to be passed on. Obviously everyone has their own reasons, and if anyone here is a breeder, and they have valid reasons they are happy with, other than "to make money", then I have nothing against that, it's just I personally don't have good enough reasons now to want to breed my bitch, even though I did select her originally for many qualities, including her breeding potential in the future.

Unfortunately we are entering a period of time that is financially hard on the country, and last year the number of dogs put down was up significantly. It is only going to continue to rise.

But as others have said it's supply and demand, if someone is silly enough to want to spend £500 on a dog that's not fully tested/known, or if people will pay £300 for mongrel puppies just because it's "cute", can you really blame the breeders for wanting to make some money? if people wouldn't pay it, then they wouldn't be bred..... it's just a shame as ultimately the dogs suffer as a lot of people will pay good money for any puppy, without any regard to what it will turn out like, and then it gets dumped when it's older


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Schip said:


> Why would you breed mongrels for what purpose?
> 
> 
> > no idea. I don't know anyone who breeds mi=ongrels. It's a good job people did take the plunge though or else no pure breeds would exist would they?
> ...


 so purebred dogs are happy long living and healthy and cross breeds are not? All purebreed owners do the relevant health tests and all have the same exacting terms as I have? No purebred dogs ever end up in rescue?
Must be nice up there in cloud cuckoo land where you can look down on us lessed mortals from your high horse.
For your interest, I used to have only purebred dogs. I bred and showed at championship level (successfully) standard poodles in the 1980's. I can say hand on heart that the puppies I have now, are just as well reared and healthy and long lived as my poodles were and the people who get to buy one are just as nice.
You need to take your blinkers of dear and realise that not everyone wants your little plain black yappy dogs (which originally came from crossbreeding) and lots of people actually like my cute fluffy lha-chis.
And yes, my hybrids have a name, just as hybrid chickens are given names line goldline, white star, bluebelle and the like.
I love my lha-chis, which is why I keep one or two from each litter. I hapen to like funny, playful pretty little dogs. I wouldn't have a schipperke if it was thrown at me with £1000 in pound notes because I personally don't find plain black dogs interesting at all.
You obviously do or else you wouldn't have one and obviously you don't like the look of lha-chis whuich is why you probably wouldn't have one if it was thrown at you with £1000. At the end of the day, I produce healthy happy puppies that people want to buy. I have to turn people away as more people want them than I have puppies to sell. I hope you are lucky enough to be in the same position.
You really need to stop imagining that because you have purebred dogs, that you or your dogs are somehow superior to me or mine.
I think a mod needs to close this thread now as I am likely to lose my temper and say something I will regret if this carries on.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

bosshogg said:


> fenwoman as i see it your the one been abusive none of my posts have been directed at you at you all i was doing was having a moan at ads i have come across on the web, and its not that i dont little dogs i love jack russles and i my childhood dog was a skye terrier x, what i am against is people selling designer dogs for huge amounts of money
> 
> i could sell me oure bred labs with 28FTCH in the ped for £450 but i dont sell them at £250-300 as a home is more important than the money


 
it must be a huge coincidence then that I pot pictures of my lha-chi puppies and immediately I do, you start a thread about outrageous crossbred puppies fetching ridiculous amounts of money. I still can't understand why anyone would sell something which has a certain market value for less than half that market value. Is it because you want to be seen as being a nice kind person, rooting for the underdogs? Or that only people who can only afford to pay £250 will provide the best homes and that anyone wich £450 to spend will not be as good a home as the person with less money?
FT bred labs simply don't fetch the same money as a show/pet bred dog will. The same goes for FT bred springers and cockers etc. They are cheaper. Unless of course your bitch is a FT champion herself. Only you know that just as only you know whether there really are 28FTCHs in the pedigree which means your 4 generation pedigree must be smothered in red writing. None of them repeats? All different FTCHs?So a complete outcross then and all with good hip and elbow scores and eye tests?
I don't consider that I sell my pups for huge aounts, nor do I advertise them as 'designer' or anything else. In fact if someone called asking me for a 'designer' puppy, it would likely mean that I turned them away as an unsuitable owner because I'm not a designer and don't want my pups to be furry fashion statements, They are healthy country reared puppies, that's all, no more, no less.
I am so darned fussy as to who gets my pups and not just my own pups. For many years I have fostered bitches with pups for a rescue centre. First because rescue kennels are flipping dangerous places disease wise for new puppies and noisy busy places for a rescue, insecure nursing bitch, and secondly, I am damn good at rearing puppies. It's about the only thing I do well. I also vet and rehome from mine. I charge nothing, not even for the food and hand over all the adoption fee to the kennels, not because I'm good or nice, but because I coonsider it my duty to help dogs less fortunate than my own. A couple of years ago, I had in a nice FT type springer bitch who had a litter of pups which looked like they might be labrador crosses. Anyway, likely to be large-ish, very active working bred dogs.
Among the potential owners was a lady who called me and sounded perfect on the phone (but anyone can tell a good story), I invited the family to view. I explained about the cross and that they would be highly active dogs with a need for a high level of activity, not just an amble around the garden, if they weren't to get grossly fat and destructive.
The people duly turned up and I had to make all kinds of excuses as to why I didn't think the pups were the right breed for them. Mum, Dad, 2 kids, lumbered up my garden path, all so grossly overweight that their eyes were mere slits on all the fat on their faces. From the car to the cottage is about 30 feet and all were wheezing and gasping with the effort.
Nice people probably and would love any dog they had, but obviously not suited for active large puppies. NO doubt they would be full of good intentions about walking the dog, but in reality if they'd allowed themselves to become to terribly obese in the first place, I can't see them all becoming jogging freaks in 6 months and the dog would have ended up as fat in a short time.
No doubt some nice purebred labrador or springer breeder who had some cute working bred pups for sale, would have closed their eyes to the reality and concentrated on the money and the family went away delighted with their new pup.
Not all crossbreed puppy breeders are the devil incarnate and not all purebred puppy breeders are pure in mind and thought with the pups being foremost in their minds. 
I don't even know many purebred puppy breeders who insist in having the dog back, regardless of age or temperament, if things go wrong. In fact, since I run a dog advice line, I hear plenty of tales from people who have to rehome the dog and contacted the breeder to take back the large adult dog, only to be told "oh sorry, I don't have the room here to take in an adult dog ". Funny how they have the room to rear a litter though.
It should be law that every person who breeds a litter has to take back any of their dogs which need rehoming. Might put a few people off breeding if they had to.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

marthaMoo said:


> I'm going to be hugely unpopular but.......
> 
> There was around 12,000 dogs destroyed last year, they are just the known dogs not including the ones who are destroyed off the record. Please dont think these are all bull breeds, rotties, collies and GSDs with issues because there not, there various breeds of various ages.
> 
> ...


 the word 'nearly' is the one to remember.
You can get 'nearly' any type of dog in rescue but go to any of the rescue websites and have a look at what is available. Loads of staffies, staffy crosses, large breeds etc and mostly adult. So if someone wants a smaller, cute, flluffy puppy of a certain type or breed, where do they go for such a pup?
Should they be forced by law to take on an adult staffy cross just because that's what there are most of in rescue kennels? 
If nobody bred any puppies for a whole year, do you really think that all the dogs in rescue kennels will find homes? I'm afraid they won't. People want what they want.
When I was looking for a large breed male pet dog to join my family, I looked first at rescue sites, however, I was not prepared to risk the lives of my small dogs, cats, poultry and goats just to feel I was doing my bit by taking on an unknown adult rottie cross, especially as most of the dogs on the rescue sites come with the warning "not suitable to be with small children or other animals". I knew what I wanted. Large puppy, black lots of coat. Prefered breeds and crosses, GSD/Rottie/newfoundland/collie/great dane and any of them in any cross, but above all a pup to be brought up used to small dogs and other animals. One moment of misunderstanding or impatience in a large rottie cross might have meant a painful death to one of my cats or small dogs.
I searched and searched and found someone who had a litter of newfoundland X rottweilers and bought one of them which is my 'Ursa'.

Really, while I laud your sentiments, you have to be realistic. Not every single dog in rescue kennels is deserving of, or safe enough, for a people who want an easy to train, baggage free puppy. There are mad and bad dogs in the wolrd just the same as there are mad and bad people. My old Kip was a case in point and had I not had him then I would have had him put down if I couldn't keep him as he was out and out dangerous and hated every human being n the world apart from me. Not because anything particularly terrible had happened to him, but simply, he wasn't sane.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

ceratogyrus said:


> i cannot believe what is going on with mutt prices today. a bloody labradoodle??????? wtf is that? a mongrel fetching stupid money down here when not so long ago these could not be given away. also JRTs fetching in the region of £200 per pup.
> 
> also old unwanteds have a price tag on them now. and rescue centers having fees and are really fussy where they rehome what i.e. will not rehome a dog where there are cats etc etc etc.


 Labradoodles aren't m,ongrels, they are a crossbreed/hybrid. JRT are a purebred dog so why should they not fetch £200?
Why should rescue centres not charge for the dogs they have and be fussy where they place them? You think any person with a load of asbo kids in tow, should be allowed to wander in, point to whichever dog they want to take home and chain up outside for the kids to 'play' with, and take the dog away free of charge or for a small donation, when 'someone' will have had to pay to get the dog vaccinates, neutered, fed, vet checked and the like? As someone who does take in dogs, I don't see why people think I should hand over a dog for nothing just because the potential adopter thinks that I got it for nowt. In reality if people paid the true cost of what it costs to get the dog neutered and vaccinated and feed costs for several months, it would cost more than if they went out and bought a purebred puppy in the first place from the local dog dealer of puppy farmer who pokes them out in huge numbers, not bothering to even worm or vaccinate the puppies.:bash:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Emmaj said:


> I understand the fee's and totally agree with them as when they did the free homing people were adopting animals then selling them on to make a profit
> 
> so i 100% agree on rehoming and adoption fee's : victory:
> 
> but i do think that rehoming centres can be a lil too fussy with rehoming animals too especially to say there are so many animals needing homes and many people that would help and take them on but are turned down due to silly reasons :bash:


 I agree emma. LIke when my old mum wanted a cat. VPL didn't want to let her take one of their older cats because she is 76 and lives on a main road. Despite the fact that it was to be an indoor only cat. So we went elsewhere and now she has 'Bluey' the 3 legged and most pampered cat in the world.Has a whole room of toys for himself, mum cleared her window sills of her prized blue glass collection so that he can sit and watch the birdies outside. Poor CPL oldies would have loved living with mum.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> I agree emma. LIke when my old mum wanted a cat. VPL didn't want to let her take one of their older cats because she is 76 and lives on a main road. Despite the fact that it was to be an indoor only cat. So we went elsewhere and now she has 'Bluey' the 3 legged and most pampered cat in the world.Has a whole room of toys for himself, mum cleared her window sills of her prized blue glass collection so that he can sit and watch the birdies outside. Poor CPL oldies would have loved living with mum.


 
I have to say the RSPCA are the worst of things like that 

i have had 2 inspections here and passed with flying colours everytime 

BUT if i didnt have any dogs and wanted to adopt one from them they would home check and tell me NO.......i dont have a big enough garden..............

No i dont have a huge garden BUT all my dogs get a good walk and all the love and attention in the world :lol2:

crazy isnt it :bash:


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## vetdebbie (Jan 4, 2008)

I would fail a CPL home check as I work all day! Mad I say. The cats are fine on their own all day, they are after all, cats not dogs! That's despite the fact our local cpl will leave strays with us for literally months stuck in a cage with little attention. Last time it happened, I took the kitty home anyway and they didn't even notice it had gone (we usually have to ring them 2 or 3 times a day for a few weeks to get them picked up).


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## Lisasgeckonursery (Feb 14, 2008)

i agree that if people are willing to pay the money and the breeders are knowledgeable of their cross bred pups they make lovely pets and have got desirable traits from each breed, why not sell cross breed's? as many have said thats how most pedigree's started.
They can be expensive but as i witness from breeders i know the time and effort a GOOD breeder makes justifies what they have to charge.
Personally it think the key is research on the part of the buyer to find quality breeders even if it means paying extra.
And as for those puppy farmers they make my blood boil grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> No doubt some nice purebred labrador or springer breeder who had some cute working bred pups for sale, would have closed their eyes to the reality and concentrated on the money and the family went away delighted with their new pup.
> 
> I don't even know many purebred puppy breeders who insist in having the dog back, regardless of age or temperament,


i think you are taking this way to personal all i was doing was having a moan about someone selling some pups on the classfieds site, not once have i said you pups are not cared for, that you are a bad breeder i havent even mentioned you or your pups when i posted this! 

no one is the same i will only buy and breed pure and you breed your crosses we are just differnt.

as for the above quote that sounds like you are aiming that at me i am very careful who my dogs go to i will not sell if they are not suitable i am very lucky that most of my pups have have all gone to working homes as this is the reason i bred them. and i tell the new owners to everyone that for any reason that they cant keep the puppie/dog i will take him/her back luckily i have only had one dog back when the owner fell and broke her hip serverly and couldnt cope with him anymore i found him a lovely new home he was 5yr old at the time, i also dog sit pups i have sold when the owners go to new homes, oh i also provide a 52 page trianing guide to owners that would like it and provide lifetime suppourt about anything. so there you have now met a pure dog breeder that cares about there dogs and there are many more of us.

as for FTCH not making the same price as show dogs is totally untrue the sister to my bitch sold for over £2500 i would never part with my girl even though i have been offered serious money for her and yes there is lots of red in my dogs pedigrees and no they are not repeated i pride myself on my dogs line keeping them clean with no inbreeding in them, one of my dogs as 32FTCH the other 31FTCH


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I used to help run a Cat Protection Branch.We would never have refused an Indoor cat home with Fenwomans mum, or a home with vetdebbie, cats in shelters spent a lot of time on their own so surely they woukd be better off in someones nice house. The CP branches raise their own money and run their own branches, its CP own Shelters that have paid staff and are bloody awkward. We fell out with them bigtime and a benefactor bought our pens for us and we now have our own Rescue Centre which CP cant control HA ! We ask for an £75 donation. All our cats are Felv/FIV tested, Vaccinated, ID chipped and go out with 6 weeks free Insurance and a voucher for reduced neutering at 5 Months of age. Some people say they cant afford this but surely if they cant afford this donation how will they afford vetcare?


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> the word 'nearly' is the one to remember.
> You can get 'nearly' any type of dog in rescue but go to any of the rescue websites and have a look at what is available. Loads of staffies, staffy crosses, large breeds etc and mostly adult. So if someone wants a smaller, cute, flluffy puppy of a certain type or breed, where do they go for such a pup?
> Should they be forced by law to take on an adult staffy cross just because that's what there are most of in rescue kennels?
> If nobody bred any puppies for a whole year, do you really think that all the dogs in rescue kennels will find homes? I'm afraid they won't. People want what they want.
> ...


A handful of years ago you would of been right about not being able to get certain breeds, now unfortunatly your wrong. I know of a good few rescues who get pure bred small dogs and puppies all the time, mainly from puppy farms, and they do rehome all over the country.
The other week they even had a Frenchie in that I nearly did kill for..lol but five dogs is enough for now.

As for what kind of dogs are in rescue, I have found over the past year since dog attacks have gotten worse most rescues are less likely to take problem dogs, vertually none will take one with any form of aggression, most have to be dog friendly and people friendly. Where as a couple of years ago I could of moved dogs with various problems, now the rescues just arent taking them as no one wants them and its too risky for them to rehome. Most centres are now destroying the dogs when they come in if they have any issues. Some rescues are now point blank refusing to take in certain breeds full stop. Most of those are the large well know well funded rescues.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

Designer dogs = Mongrels. You may know the boths breeds of parent but the offspring are still mongrels.



mon·grel (mäŋ*′*grəl, muŋ*′*-) 
noun


 an animal or plant produced by the crossing of different breeds or varieties; esp., a dog of this kind
 anything produced by indiscriminate mixture


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

A cross-bred dog is not a hybrid. A hybrid is a cross between 2 different species or sub-species. Dogs, whether they are Great Danes or Chihuahuas, are all the same species, so cannot be hybrids, unless mated with, for example, a wolf.

I hate seeing these stupid names for these cross-bred dogs, such as Cockerpoo, or Pugle, or Lha-Chis. How daft. They should be called Cocker Spaniel x Poodle, or Pug x Beagle, or Lhasa Apso x Chihuahua.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i have a doberman/german shepherd cross. i got her from the dog pound. great dog. she loves the woods. i saw an ad where some guy bred them specifically to sell. he wanted $450 bucks a pop for them.

just posted for the heck of it....:whistling2:


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Heard a new one tonight whilst looking online at preloved, more for curiosity as it's so hated by certain forums i frequent. And was browsing Siberian huskies relatively near to where I live. Only to find Samouskys(sp?) Basically a samoyd x siberian husky. I'm not quite sure what possesses people :? Their reasoning was "these pups can b let off the lead unlike huskies".

Dunno i'm sort of on the fence on this issue. Whilst I think it's a bit ludicrous charging £300 + for a cross-breed/designer dog. One could argue that it ensures the new owners have really thought out the purchase. And i suppose you could argue that pedigree breeders charge to much too. For eg fenwoman sells her pups for £495 and makes sure they have vet check, injections,worming defleaing,insurance,food etc etc. So if she can do it for that price why do some people charge in excess of 1k for some dogs?

As for reducing the chance of hereditory diseases in cross-breeds though...would it not still have a chance of developing said hereditory disease? Also could their not be a problem that the pups could inherit different problems from each parent? e.g hip problems from one, eye/breathing problems from another just for an off the top of my head example? Or does it not work like that?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i figure but don't really know, that crosses as in hybrids tend to be more vigorous. IMO, a fine dog is a fine dog. there are crap pure breeds and crap crosses and mixed breeds. i mean a shar-pei? jeez.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I'm with most people on the breeding of dogs nowadays anyway, whether pedigree or not, it really p's me off with the silly names though.

I do like the look of some of the X-breeds and I can see the point of someone buying one if it is what they want.

I understand the costs in any litter of pups. Just because the litter is a crossed litter it doesn't make it any cheaper to raise the litter!!!!!
Try telling a medium sized cross breed that he shouldn't eat as much because he's not a purebred Springer Spaniel!!!!! 

In trying to lighten the mood of this thread would anyone like to 'make up' a name for out Tudors breeding???

I was told when I got him that he was St Bernard x Mastiff.
I have since found out, as I traced his veterinary history in Somerset, that he is in fact a St Bernard x Rottie.


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Fenwoman me thinks you protest too much my dear! I stated my oppinon on the pratices of individuals who x breed no names were mentioned and at the time I wasn't aware of you being one of such a group! 

Try reading my posts properly ie No mention of Schipperkes needing c-sections to deliver their pups, far from it love an average schip will produce a litter of 4 - 6 pups in under 3 hrs from start to finish. I had one bitch deliver 6 puppies in 20 mins from the first to last arriving they are fantastic mothers pop them out like shelling peas and rarely any issues with bonding or cleaning pups very attentive mothers. 

Now I understand your defensive behaviour you charge £5 less then we reputable breeders do for your mongrels and not even breeds that are known for their vigorous health. Do you Test your Lhasa's Eyes for GPRA (generalised progressive retinal atrophy), schedule A listed condition in the breed ie a known inherited disease? I know John Goodyear the top eye specialist in the uk he's our vet can give you his details if you like?

Take a look at the kc website schipperkes have no listed health tests, what we perform is for our own and the breeds benefit, as in being responsible. The breed is the same now as it was back in the 1800's when first recognised it is a minority breed purely because folk don't know what a schipperke is, takes me a hours to walk them down the high street answering questions about the breed. As for not very nice plain black dogs really you know so little about my breed lol. 
My boys winning at Crufts this first 1 is the only coloured and tailed schip to win a class at Crufts in its history








My veteran male at 9 yrs old still out working and running with the hounds








My last litter born in 06 before that was 04, 01 and 99! 









Do find it amusing that I'm getting flack for my breeding when I don't do it very often and would much rather not but then if I wish to continue MY Hobby of showing dogs then its sort of a necessity, my dogs love it thats for sure.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Hi Schip,

I must admit, I had never thought of Schipperkes as much more than a foxy looking black dog, until I actually met one. They are lovely friendly dogs with such character. I am more of a Boston Terrier person myself but I could be tempted with a Schipperke.

Lovely looking dogs you have there!


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Thanks zoo-man one of the reasons schipperkes are so few and far between not that we're complaining wouldn't want the breed exploited and over bred.

There's never a dull moment with them around that's for sure lap dogs they are not but wonderful happy busy little creatures. Once you've had a schipperke you have another so addictive and great for disabled folk like me, keep themselves busy and fit even when I can't walk them.

The reason a lot of pedigree dogs cost more is down to the extra's we pay out in health testing like I say schips have no health tests needed but we do test to monitor our breeding stock you never know if a mutation has occurred unless you monitor things. I am at present organising DNA collections from fellow schip breeders for a research team in Helsinki who are looking to map epilepsy in dogs in a hope of being able to use their research to develope DNA tests for both dogs and humans.


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## nikki288 (Jun 13, 2013)

Thats the problem now, the pure bred dogs within the UK have a small gene pool to choose from and this has caused a lot of the genetic problems a lot of the breeds have, hips, joints, brain, never mind the tiny breeds having to be operated on just to give birth, that is not natural. Most are ignorant of any problems that certain breeds have until they have their pup home and 6 months on its limping or is running in circles or crying in pain. As for puppy farmers I would jail them automatically for 10yrs lets see how they like a cage! I have a GSD x Akita, she cost £100 and I keep being asked to sell her because of her markings. Needless to say she is not for sale and never will be, that's like asking me to sell one of my family. NO lol


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## nikki288 (Jun 13, 2013)

Hi Fenwoman and Emmaj

My sister had the same problem, the CPL told her you need one room for each cat, WHAT kids sleep in one room but cats need one each, stupidity in extreme. She ended up taking on 2 rescue cats that were never cuddled or given any affection. It has taken 3yrs for them to come round and everything is in their time and pace.
Nikki


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

nikki288 said:


> Thats the problem now, the pure bred dogs within the UK have a small gene pool to choose from and this has caused a lot of the genetic problems a lot of the breeds have, hips, joints, brain, never mind the tiny breeds having to be operated on just to give birth, that is not natural. Most are ignorant of any problems that certain breeds have until they have their pup home and 6 months on its limping or is running in circles or crying in pain. As for puppy farmers I would jail them automatically for 10yrs lets see how they like a cage! I have a GSD x Akita, she cost £100 and I keep being asked to sell her because of her markings. Needless to say she is not for sale and never will be, that's like asking me to sell one of my family. NO lol


Cross breeds can get genetic problems from both breeds, especially f2+. Yes if the condition is a recessive one that does not exist in one breed the first cross won't get it but can carry it, then the next generation are just as likely to get it. 
When some of the labradoodle breeders started hip scoring they found there dogs had worse hips than labs or poodles. The brain problem spyingomelra May not be genetic no one knows yet but there have been crosses with it, there was one at my local rescue who had it, but good cav breeders are mri scanning for it. It's a small dog problem.
As for ceserians any dog can end up needing one especially smaller ones and one's with larger heads and narrow hips. Good breeders try to breed dogs who can self whelp.

Also the people breeding these crosses with daft names are not using the best quality dogs to begin with. Your far more likely to get a healthy dog from a litter who's parents have been fully health tested which only a hand full of cross breed breeders do. If some fails to research there chosen breed breed or cross and goes to a breeder who doesn't health test its there own fault if they end up with problems in my opinion.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Not read the whole thread....can't be arsed. But suffice to say that I have a cockapoo, called Scruff. I bought her because I like the look of them, they have a wonderful temperament, and they are low-shedding. 

I didn't pay silly money for her as some do, but if people wish to then that is their prerogative! Maybe they just don't like or want a pedigree. Maybe they don't agree with a lot of the nonsense that comes along with the Kennel Club and the whole Crufts kinda nonsense.

An animal is worth what someone will pay for it. It is their money to spend after all. How is it anyone else's business to stick their noses in and moan about it? Nobody's hurting you, so chill out.: victory:

(Free pic of my baby)


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## lisadew24 (Jul 31, 2010)

I think your cockapoo is lovely, my personal view is after the Labradoodles and cockapoos where breed it kind of seemed like all the back yard breeders jumped on the bandwagon and started cross breeding any dogs making up stupid names so they could make more money and this I disagree with and it might be because I don't look at those dogs as breeds but do I see Labradoodles and cockapoo as a breed in their own right and maybe thats because I have heard of these a lot longer but the worst breeder is the ones who say I don't breed for the money I do it for love then charge something stupid like £1000 per pup.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Isn't that just the same with exotics though? People frown on small time snake breeders that say "I do it for the money"......but they still charge £1000's for their brand new morphs! 

It's the same with all breeders. _No-one's_ motives are _entirely_ not about the cash.


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

mrcriss said:


> Not read the whole thread....can't be arsed. But suffice to say that I have a cockapoo, called Scruff. I bought her because I like the look of them, they have a wonderful temperament, and they are low-shedding.
> 
> 
> An animal is worth what someone will pay for it. It is their money to spend after all. How is it anyone else's business to stick their noses in and moan about it? Nobody's hurting you, so chill out.


But that's the thing as a cross they don't breed true, not all cockerpoos are non shedding, they will only be like that if they get the poodle coat which many don't and those ones will shed just as much as a cocker. They don't all look the same even litter mates can look completely different and they can get any of the breed traits from both breeds, you could get the best bits or the worst bits or a good mix of the both.

The reason why people moan about them is that some breeders are lieing about them claiming them all to be non shedding and best of both with no chance of health problems which is a lie as you can't guarantee anything with them untill they mature, people are getting scammed out of money thinking there getting one thing and often end up with something very diffrent to what they wanted, which is why lots are ending up in rescue.
Then the lack of health testing with them only a hand full of breeders health testing. Both cockers and poodles can get pra so cockerpoos are just as likely to get it as well so all breeders of them should be eye testing at the very least 
I met one good labradoodle breeder, she health tests and fully explains to people interested in one of her pups about the diffrent coat types and there level of shedding and the coat care they need.


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

holy thread resurrection batman...


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

PPVallhunds said:


> But that's the thing as a cross they don't breed true, not all cockerpoos are non shedding, they will only be like that if they get the poodle coat which many don't and those ones will shed just as much as a cocker. They don't all look the same even litter mates can look completely different and they can get any of the breed traits from both breeds, you could get the best bits or the worst bits or a good mix of the both.
> 
> The reason why people moan about them is that some breeders are lieing about them claiming them all to be non shedding and best of both with no chance of health problems which is a lie as you can't guarantee anything with them untill they mature, people are getting scammed out of money thinking there getting one thing and often end up with something very diffrent to what they wanted, which is why lots are ending up in rescue.
> Then the lack of health testing with them only a hand full of breeders health testing. Both cockers and poodles can get pra so cockerpoos are just as likely to get it as well so all breeders of them should be eye testing at the very least
> I met one good labradoodle breeder, she health tests and fully explains to people interested in one of her pups about the diffrent coat types and there level of shedding and the coat care they need.


Did I say "non shedding"? Nope. I said _"low-shedding"_. If you don't like them, then you don't like them......many many people do! As it happens, I particularly dislike staffies, but say as much on this forum, and you get crucified.

Vive la difference!

There's no need for you to get so worked up about cross breeds!


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> You try buying a chihuahua for less than £500 or a well bred hasa apso. You won't do it.


 
Haven't read the whole thread but we sell our very well bred Chihuahuas (with restrictions) for about £300 :2thumb:




I only buy purebreds as I show them and I will pay the going rate for a well bred dog with show potential.  I have nothing at all against crossbreeds, but if I was going to have a crossbreed instead of a purebred I would go for a rescue. If you're determined to have one, you'll find plenty of these "Designer Dogs" in rescue now when people realise that crossing a hunting breed with a toy breed produces a dog that is hell to live with.... :whistling2:


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## Lacerta. (Jul 27, 2011)

bosshogg said:


> what the hell is going on when a cross breed is going to cost £500+ and a pure breed is costing less!!!! why would anyone want to buy something that they don't know the history for so don't know if they are any hereditary diseases instead of going for a breeder that understands there chosen breed and makes sure they are no problems in the line i just cant get my head around it i really cant at the end of the day a cross is just a mongrel
> 
> Moan over.


A dog is worth what someone is willing to pay, simple as. 

Being cross bred doesn't always mean you don't know the history =], as for diseases that is debatable any dog could be tested for hereditary disease or defect regardless of whether it pedigree .

I could turn round and say well why would someone want t buy a purebred dog when you know that it is prone to and in some cases almost guaranteed to develop a septic problem.

As I’m sure someone else has probably said at some point crossbred are often intentionally bred to have a attributes form 2 or more breeds.


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

mrcriss said:


> Did I say "non shedding"? Nope. I said _"low-shedding"_. If you don't like them, then you don't like them......many many people do! As it happens, I particularly dislike staffies, but say as much on this forum, and you get crucified.
> 
> Vive la difference!
> 
> There's no need for you to get so worked up about cross breeds!


Many are not even low shedding, if they have the cocker coat they will shed just as much.

I Didn't say I don't like crossbreeds (i know many loverly one's and I think your girl looks loverly) what I'm saying is I don't like the majority of people breeding them with no thought to health and lieing about them. If some one wants to breed crosses and goes about it properly (health testing, is honist to people about what they could get ect) then by all means go for it. 
I'm not getting worked up about anything mearly pointing out the bad breeding practices most breeding them are doing and to which most of the public seem not bothered about. Only seen a hand full of good cross breeders sadly yes there are bad breeder in pedigree dogs too, all bad breeding of dogs weather cross or pure needs to stop.


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

Lacerta. said:


> Being cross bred doesn't always mean you don't know the history =], as for diseases that is debatable any dog could be tested for hereditary disease or defect regardless of whether it pedigree .


Exactly all breeding dogs weather pedigree and crossbreds can be health tested and should be but sadly many purebreed dogs arnt and even less crossbreeds are.



Lacerta. said:


> i could turn round and say well why would someone want t buy a purebred dog when you know that it is prone to and in some cases almost guaranteed to develop a septic problem.


Which is why people should go to good breeders who health test, if there is a genetic test for a problem breeders can use dogs who don't have the gene or put carriers to clears if enough clears dont exist so the pups will never get the problem. 



Lacerta. said:


> BAs I’m sure someone else has probably said at some point crossbred are often intentionally bred to have a attributes form 2 or more breeds.


Yes many dogs are crossed for working purposes and other reasons like that but many have jumped on the band wagon and are just breeding dogs for money with no thought to anything but making money.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Hmmmmmm......there's a faint whiff of snobbery running through this thread. Pooooo-eee!


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

I don't see what is snobbery about wanting all breeding dogs to be health tested. I've already said I don't have a problem with crossbreeds but I guess some people just cant see the wood for the trees.


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## lisadew24 (Jul 31, 2010)

Do you know what I hate more than people overcharging for crossbreeds is kennel clubs rules that a certin breed should be so tall and the dogs are not aloud to be a certin colour eg white they are nothing but nazis the whole lot of them, I agree all dogs should be healthy, good temperament and should be health tested before breeding.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

colour requirements are often for health reasons eg merle. Other colours genetically cannot be produced by a purebed dog of a specific breed so those colours will only crop up if other breeds have sneakily been introduced. The KC does have an option for "colour not recognised by the KC" for registering however which im not a fan of.

love how you call them nazi's for having breed standards - what about horses? Cats? Any other show animals? They are judged against a breed/type standard also.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

lisadew24 said:


> Do you know what I hate more than people overcharging for crossbreeds is kennel clubs rules that a certin breed should be so tall and the dogs are not aloud to be a certin colour eg white they are nothing but nazis the whole lot of them, I agree all dogs should be healthy, good temperament and should be health tested before breeding.


Sorry I have to disagree with this. Any breed of pedigree animal has to have a breed standard for breeders to aspire to, so breeders got together and decided what was the 'norm' and desired look of the particular animal and wrote up the breed standard.

Anyone who chooses to breed and/or show these animals has to have a guide to what they should be breeding and as Myjb23 says there are reasons for some of the things covered by the breed standard. I know with my dog breed of choice, the GSD, the longhaired ones were around before the shorthairs (or so I've read from reputable sources) and were allowed to be shown, but when breed standards came in, there had to be a decision made about what is the desirable coat and because the short hair has the undercoat which gives it the 'waterproofing' necessary for a working dog who would be working in all weathers, it was decided that the breed standard had to be short hair and so long hairs were no longer able to be shown. That doesn't make The Kennel Club Nazis, no more than the equivalent organisations in cats, horses, rabbits, rats ..... I could go on!


mrcriss said:


> It's the same with all breeders. _No-one's_ motives are _entirely_ not about the cash.


Sorry gonna disagree with you here. Not everyone breeds to make money, if cash comes into their equation, it's not to end up being bankrupt by the cost.

I certainly didn't do it for money - if I had I'd have made a loss. I never charged the 'going rate' for pedigree cats or my own breed, I charged what I thought was fair and gave away kittens free or at a reduced price because the home was of prime concern to me.


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## lisadew24 (Jul 31, 2010)

Nazi might be a bit harsh but if kennel club where that good bulldogs would give birth natually, King Charles brains would fit in their skulls. Yes I agree that for temperment and health reasons dogs should or shouldn't be breed and some colours make health problems. I don't agree with breeders who murder sorry cull a perfectly healthy dog because it doesn't match the kennel clubs breed standards when there people out there like myself who don't care if its it a bit different.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

i think you've been watching too many tv programmes.

i don't know any breeders who would cull healthy pups, if they don't meet the standard they are sold as pets. Any who do cull are disgusting, but that is a few individuals - don't tar all breeders with the same brush.

I know of lots of crossbreeds born with deformities. It is not unique to purebreds at all not to mention it is VERY rare for cross breeders to health test ( many hereditary issues are easy to test for) whereas the vast majority of purebred show/working breeders health test as a matter of course.


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

lisadew24 said:


> Nazi might be a bit harsh but if kennel club where that good bulldogs would give birth natually, King Charles brains would fit in their skulls. Yes I agree that for temperment and health reasons dogs should or shouldn't be breed and some colours make health problems. I don't agree with breeders who murder sorry cull a perfectly healthy dog because it doesn't match the kennel clubs breed standards when there people out there like myself who don't care if its it a bit different.


Kennel club code of ethics state "Breeders/Owners will agree that no healthy puppy will be culled. Puppies which may not conform to the Breed Standard should be placed in suitable homes. " 
Issue Statement - The Kennel Club General Code of Ethics - The Kennel Club
yes a while ago in some breeds some breeders would kill healthy pups like white pups in boxers and other breeds and ridgless pups in ridgebacks however that isnt common practice anymore and it was mainly the old style breeders doing it who when they started breeding it was probably acceptable but its not acceptable practice nower days, and im sure there are still people doing it but there is bad in every aspects of life.

The KC is not perfect no but in reasont years they have been making changes to help improve things including a max limit on C-sections, after the second one they wont register a litter from the female, reviews of the standards, banning close breeding's, health check for BOB in high profile breeds at shows before they can go on to the group and other things. They can still do more and hopefully they will. Id like to see health testing with good results to be mandatory for any litter to be kc reg but I cant see that happening as they would lose money and at the end of the day they are a business I suppose.


The idea of the standards is that it _should_ describe what the perfect example of the breed is in both temperament and physical build to allow it to do its job, back in the old days when dogs were kept for working rather than pets if a dog couldn't do the job it wouldn't be bred, ensuring the breed was fit to do the job. Now however most dogs don't work but should still be physically able to do the job (not all breeds should be mentally able to like the bating/fighting breeds), so the idea is the traits in the standards _should_ allow the dog to be able to preform its job, so for example say a terrier breed that is meant to go to ground, if its too tall or wide it wont be able to fit properly which will slow it down or get it stuck under ground.
I say should as the standards are open for interpretation, likes say the GSD one, it calls for a "gently sloping croup" but what one person calls a gentle slope wont be another persons idea of a gentle slope. Ive seen ones at shows who are almost straight with a little slope in the back end then ive seen ones who look like there about to have a poop all the time due to a big slope starting at the sholders.
Id like to see detailed drawings to show how much is acceptable in each breed.
Some standards don't help things like in the chi the standard use to say that if two equal dogs were in a show the smallest should be picked, but the kc have taken that out. Then you do get judges who are looking at the wrong end of the lead which doesn't help. That's how exaggerations slowly creep in, Which has led to some breeds prone to terrible problems. there are good breeders working to improve them but sadly there's not enough of them.


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## Lacerta. (Jul 27, 2011)

PPVallhunds said:


> Exactly all breeding dogs weather pedigree and crossbreds can be health tested and should be but sadly many purebreed dogs arnt and even less crossbreeds are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Suppose I didn’t really explain what I meant, when I said some breeds are prone to specific (or septic, lol) problems I didn't really mean hereditary diseases more just health problems associated with breed eg brachyspeiplaic breeds are far more prone to heat stroke and can't be vigorously exercised as they can't pant in the same as well.

You can claim any breeder breeds for money whether you kc reg your pups you still sell them (I am not saying this is the only motivation nor am i belittling the cost of rearing a puppy properly) but why is it any more acceptable to sell pure bred dogs than a cross. What actually makes them worth anymore? 

I do agree the number of frankly amusing names you see is ridiculous. Sometimes I do think a little more thought should be put into the combinations for the dogs sake I’m you do get some confused little pooches. And yes it seems silly to simply pluck a random cross out of the air give it a name and sell it for reasonably large sums of money however why shouldn’t they lol. All breeds started as crosses once they have simply been refined!

I would just like to point out I am talking about the difference between breeding a cross and pure bred pup and not the ethic of breeding in general. Whether people should be breeding any puppies when so many need homes is a completely different issue/debate.


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## Lacerta. (Jul 27, 2011)

lisadew24 said:


> Do you know what I hate more than people overcharging for crossbreeds is kennel clubs rules that a certin breed should be so tall and the dogs are not aloud to be a certin colour eg white they are nothing but nazis the whole lot of them, I agree all dogs should be healthy, good temperament and should be health tested before breeding.


too true


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## Middleton Mouse (May 16, 2013)

Wouldn't buy a dog from anyone while there are perfectly nice dogs being put to sleep because there are no homes for them anyway.


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## Ameliaxx (Apr 9, 2010)

I don't know whether I can agree with saying that its the KC fault as I think that is very unfair it is the minority of breeders that breed for conformation against health and the judges that choose these dogs to win thus promoting the trend of a certain extreme conformation, it is not fair to say that a whole organisation should be put down because of a few peoples actions. I have worked in a rescue and know of plenty of mongrels and cross breeds that have behavioural, physical and heredity problems ( and few ironically where given up because of such issues that the owner thought they had avoided by getting a "designer cross") Now trust me I believe that the KC is in no way close to perfect I believe there should be changes to several departments. I'm also in no way against cross breeds or mongrels as I love all dogs  but I do agree with breed standards as finding the dog that fits your lifestyle is one of the most important decisions of your life and if you've chosen the right size, coat and character it can make your life a hell of a lot easier. 

I think the cull and the Nazi comment where very naïve comment and I imagen they have come from PDE, I have never come across or even heard of breeders that cull as lets be honest breeders that even think of culling are not doing it for the animal so I imagen they would be sold of as soon as possible so they can make money. I find the Nazi section on PDE quiet disgusting and I think it belittles the seriousness of those that suffered and the pain they went through (this is not a go at the op it just annoys me when people say it as its brought on by a very one sided documentary). PDE wasn't completely bad but it was so biased it just made people automatically think pedigree=disease when it would of been better if they had shown positives of peds or rescue so what does the average person do rush of to there local puppy farm and buy crosses that have been bred with no concern for there health (I say puppy farm as I know that cross breeds can be breed healthily as if they couldn't where would of all are breeds come from lol ). 

personally I think we need to tackle everything head on no undercover this or I know this judge who knows ete etc it needs to be not hidden from the public but at the same time they need to be show positives and negatives of every way of getting a dog. It should be compulsory to have health tests to show or to be registered and breeders should have to sign something or do something to prove them selves (I understand its alright me saying this but how do we enforce it I don't know but something has to be done).


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Ameliaxx said:


> I don't know whether I can agree with saying that its the KC fault as I think that is very unfair it is the minority of breeders that breed for conformation against health and the judges that choose these dogs to win thus promoting the trend of a certain extreme conformation, it is not fair to say that a whole organisation should be put down because of a few peoples actions. .


I agree, it isn't just up to the Kennel Club at all. Judges who put up the dogs that are more extreme have to be held as culpable too, because ambitious breeders who _are_ in it for the money will breed the sort of dogs that are winning, whether they are true to the SOP or 'sailing close to the wind' in terms of extreme type.


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

Lacerta. said:


> Suppose I didn’t really explain what I meant, when I said some breeds are prone to specific (or septic, lol) problems I didn't really mean hereditary diseases more just health problems associated with breed eg brachyspeiplaic breeds are far more prone to heat stroke and can't be vigorously exercised as they can't pant in the same as well.
> 
> You can claim any breeder breeds for money whether you kc reg your pups you still sell them (I am not saying this is the only motivation nor am i belittling the cost of rearing a puppy properly) but why is it any more acceptable to sell pure bred dogs than a cross. What actually makes them worth anymore?
> 
> ...


For me the price of a litter should be a reflection of the effort and quality put in to it, so a litter (cross or pure) where the breeder has payed out sometimes hundreds on health testing, spent time researching the dogs lines to make sure it's a good match ect should cost a higher price then a litter (cross or pure) who's breeder just picked any random dog with no health testing or little or no thought to compatibility. The extra cost would be to cover the cost of the testing and extra work put into the pups.

I've never been a fan of short muzzled breeds (just not my cup of tea) but realy you would get the same breathing problems in any dog (pure of cross) with a short muzzle but can be helped by breeding for wider nostrils and not such short muzzles. But again it comes down to how short it too short, some people love the realy squished in faces some don't. But while there is still people happy to buy them many people will still breed for extremes.
My sister in law after watching pedigree dogs exposed was complaining about show basset hounds so I showed her two photos, one an American champion which has tones of lose skin and realy droopy eyes belly barely off the floor (in my option very exaggerated) and one a working bred basset, it had little to no lose skin, a bit taller on the leg and no droopy eyes (I quite liked that one) her exact words were yuck I'd rather have the show one.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

PPVallhunds said:


> My sister in law after watching pedigree dogs exposed was complaining about show basset hounds so I showed her two photos, one an American champion which has tones of lose skin and realy droopy eyes belly barely off the floor (in my option very exaggerated) and one a working bred basset, it had little to no lose skin, a bit taller on the leg and no droopy eyes (I quite liked that one) her exact words were yuck I'd rather have the show one.


:gasp:


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## lisadew24 (Jul 31, 2010)

I prefer working breed lines rather than show, it still surprises me how many people don't know there is a difference but then a lady came into my shop after a harness for a springer so showed the ones that say springer spaniel on the back and she said no I have a springer not a springer spaniel until one of my colleagues showed her a calendar and covered up the name and she went that's yes thats my dog then he showed her the name.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Wonder how she did her research on that breed then??? :whistling2:


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