# Keeping and flying bids of prey



## mark1981

I have noticed lots of people have been asking about birds of prey and flying them , my advice would be to do as much reading as possible , there are many good and top falconers out there that do sell books to show you how to do it all but to be perfectly honest your much better off finding your own way in the bird of prey world as so many people like to do things a certain way and not all of us feel comfortable doing it there way so you need to learn the basics FOR EXAMPLE , Equipment < gloves , hawking bags , lures , hoods , scales , jesse and anklet making tools < leather , eyelets crimps , swivels leather balm , jesse and anklet sizes , Housing ( usually you can make a nice weathering with a nice ceramic tile heater above the bird during the winter to stop wing tip edema known as dry gangrene syndrome ) and also a safe and secure meshed front so that wind cant blow your bird about but allows enough clean air sirculation and and also keeping unwanted guests trying to eat your bird ( cats or foxes ) and also a good lighting system to come on automaticaly to scare them off and that you can get a good view in the evening if anything does aproach the weathering but weatherings are only realy used when the bird is flown every day but its also good to have an open aviary but like i say some people pefer it one way and someone else prefers it another, Manning , Hooding , ( thats if you intend on keeping any longwing including kestrels , Feeding< this is important to as different food sources can keep the weight on a bird alot longer than some others can which can cause you trouble as your bird will not be down to flying weight the next day causing you to fail the routine you and you bird has . aviary weight and flying weight , Lure training < some kestrels prefer lures to fly to or you can get them flying naturaly ( Hovering above you ) but lure flying is a good way to keep them in top shape the same as it is with any longwing ( Falcon ) < but must be done gradually . In my opinion a harris hawk is a good bird to start with and to be honest a kestrel or an owl isnt really a starter bird unless you have someone to show you as there up bringing can be very different from a hawk as some people like to imprint falcons especially kestrels and some owls too and this needs to be done properly as you could ruin a bird totally well you can ruin any bird of prey but you may have a litle bit more room for error with a harris hawk and can correct things. A harris hawk is usually bullet proof bird but i think any of you wanting to take this up would be better finding someone in your area to show you how a hawk would fly and how a kestrel would fly and an owl too Also i know some dont use it but no one has mentioned telematry < can be expensive < wing mounts ,tail mounts , some telematry costs anywhere from 200 pounds anywhere up to 500 pounds thats just for a reciever , you then have to buy a transmitter on top of that which is obviously put onto the bird and these can average anywhere from 50 pounds up to 100 pounds bu t you can buy second hand and there is some good bargains on the right faconry web sites . ITS NOT AS EASY AS BUYING A BIRD GETTING AN AVIARY AND A GARDEN GLOVE AND WAVING A CHICK LEG AT IT AND IT COMES TO YOU , ABOVE IS A LITTLE SLICE OF FALCONRY.


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## Zoo-Man

mark1981 said:


> I have noticed lots of people have been asking about birds of prey and flying them , *my advice would be to do as much reading as possible , there are many good and top falconers out there that do sell books to show you how to do it al but to be perfectly honest your much better off finding your own way in the bird of prey world as so many people like to do things a certain way and not all of us feel comfortable doing it there way so you need to learn the basics* FOR EXAMPLE , Equipment < gloves , hawking bags , lures , hoods , scales , jesse and anklet making tools < leather , eyelets crimps , swivels leather balm , jesse and anklet sizes , Housing ( usually you can make a nice weathering with a nice ceramic tile heater above the bird during the winter to stop wing tip edema known as dry gangrene syndrome ) and also a safe and secure meshed front so that wind cant blow your bird about but allows enough clean air sirculation and and also keeping unwanted guests trying to eat your bird ( cats or foxes ) and also a good lighting system to come on automaticaly to scare them off and that you can get a good view in the evening if anything does aproach the weathering but weatherings are only realy used when the bird is flown every day but its also good to have an open aviary but like i say some people pefer it one way and someone else prefers it another, Manning , Hooding , ( thats if you intend on keeping any longwing including kestrels , Feeding< this is important to as different food sources can keep the weight on a bird alot longer than some others can which can cause you trouble as your bird will not be down to flying weight the next day causing you to fail the routine you and you bird has . aviary weight and flying weight , Lure training < some kestrels prefer lures to fly to or you can get them flying naturaly but lure flying is a good way to keep them in top shape < but must be done gradually . In my opinion a harris hawk is a good bird to start with and to be honest a kestrel isnt really a starter bird unless you have someone to show you as there up bringing can be very different from a hawk as some people like to imprint them and this needs to be done properly as you could ruin a bird totally well you can ruin any bird of prey but you may have a litle bit more room for error with a harris hawk and can correct things. harris hawk is usually bullet proof but i think you would be better finding someone in your area to show you how a hawk would fly and how a kestrel would fly , also i know some dont use it but no one has mentioned telematry < can be expensive < wing mounts ,tail mounts etc etc


I wouldn't agree with the higlighted part to be honest. Its no good doing things your own way in falconry. For example, people SHOULD use proper bewits for attaching bells to a hawks legs. Some people however use cable ties to attach a bell to a leg. This is not only uncomfortable for the bird, but can cause injury if the bird starts to tug at the cable tie trying to remove it. A bewit should just come off quite easily if a hawk tugs at it enough, but a cable tie will not. You should follow the recommended methods that have been tried & tested for years!

You can do as much reading about falconry as you like, but thats nothing to getting out there & getting proper hands-on experience & tutoring from an experienced knowledgable falconer as a tutor.


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## LoveForLizards

Zoo-Man said:


> I wouldn't agree with the higlighted part to be honest. Its no good doing things your own way in falconry. You should follow the recommended methods that have been tried & tested for years!
> 
> You can do as much reading about falconry as you like, but thats nothing to getting out there & getting proper hands-on experience & tutoring from an experienced knowledgable falconer as a tutor.


:notworthy::notworthy:
Hands-on experience is a MUST, BEFORE you buy a bird. It's something many people fail to gain, and more often than not, they pay the consequences, or rather the bird does. :bash:


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## mark1981

*hi*

i have mentioned about getting hands on experience with people in there areas and sorry i beg to differ you dont follow everyone elses way i have written this out just to explain whats involved so i dont really appreciate you jumping on my back oh and i forgot bells if you would kindly remove your post as i think its rude im trying to help those out there oh and i forgot to mention people are very clicky in the falconry world too


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## mark1981

*hi*

Yes everyone follows the tried and tested ways obviously but people dont follow everyones technices


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## Mischievous_Mark

Any chance in breaking you OP post up into paragraphs not being offencsive ( and dont have any intention of it sounding that way )

It was just a little hard to read thats all.

I have thought about owning a bird of prey before but at the moment it wouldnt be fair for it as i havent the time, money or space.

Thanks
Mark


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## mark1981

*hi*

You read up about the hobby as well as having hands on experience but you can go and meet up with someone and have hands on experience flying the bird but that person is going to take the bird home feed it the rest of its meal and put it to bed unless your living with them your not going to get the hands on experience unless you find someone that willing to take you home to show you your birds setup what your keeping and how it all done i doubt it very much so your saying its right to go and buy a bird and follow all the instructions in a book cause i can quite safely say not all birds are the same nore the tempraments too.


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## Zoo-Man

mark1981 said:


> *i have mentioned about getting hands on experience with people in there* areas and sorry i beg to differ you dont follow everyone elses way i have written this out just to explain whats involved so i dont really appreciate you jumping on my back oh and i forgot bells if you would kindly remove your post as i think its rude im trying to help those out there oh and i forgot to mention people are very clicky in the falconry world too


You haven't. 

And it is very advisable to follow what you are shown by an experienced knowledgable falconer, as you can & will harm a bird of you go off trying your own methods of doing things. It is a known fact that many a bird of prey has met its end by newbies thinking they know short-cuts/cheap alternatives, etc instead of doing what they have been shown by people in the know.

Im not jumping on your back, Im just providing the correct information for other that might read your thread, see you saying read lots of books, & then they go out & buy a Barn Owl or Kestrel because they have been to the library & taken out a couple of books.



mark1981 said:


> Yes everyone follows the tried and tesed ways obviously but people dont follow everyones technices


That doesn't make much sense. The methods that have been used with great success for years by those in the falconry world are the methods that beginners should be taught by their mentors & that they should use. This helps to ensure that the bird's welfare & needs are catered for correctly.


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## Zoo-Man

mark1981 said:


> You read up about the hobby as well as having hands on experience but you can go and meet up with someone and have hands on experience flying the bird but that person is going to take the bird home feed it the rest of its meal and put it to bed unless your living with them your not going to get the hands on experience unless you find someone that willing to take you home to show you your birds setup what your keeping and how it all done i doubt it very much *so your saying its right to go and buy a bird and follow all the instructions in a book *cause i can quite safely say not all birds are the same nore the tempraments too.


I didn't say that! You said that, more or less!


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## mark1981

*hi*

well who has had that experience unless there dad has a bird of prey or a selection of birds that can have that hands on experience and see how it is all done behind the scenes not many are able to have that opurtunity i have mentioned a few of the things someone must think about and need the knowledge before they go and think about getting a bird and you can be as petty as talking about how a bell is attached im sure falconers attach there bells in the right way the same as they do with anklets and jesses try telling all those out there how they should keep there birds during the night being teathered or how they should attach the anklets or the mount for the transmitter its all about reading reading reading watching videos maybe and then trying the hands on or hands on as your reading reading reading and seeing if its for you


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## LoveForLizards

mark1981 said:


> well who has had that experience unless there dad has a bird of prey or a selection of birds that can have that hands on experience and see how it is all done behind the scenes


People who care enough and are commited enough to make an effort with looking after their bird properly and preparing for owning a bird properly, as opposed to those in the "you don't know unless you try" brigade who go out and get a bird with no experience, spoil or kill it, then off load it onto the next mug who will take it up and clean up the carp after them.


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## mark1981

*hi*

well this is why i have written this all out its not a fly by night hobby and i would like people to see that there is a lot involved and a lot to learn so thanks for the input


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## miss_ferret

the reason why everyone reccomends gaining a mentor, spending a lot of time gaining practical experience is, put simply, BOPs are a hell of a lot of work. your correct when you say that no book can prepare you for this, but they at least give you an idea and are written by people who know what there doing (JPJ, nick fox etc) who most likely have more experience and knowledge than most of the people picking up there books.

for me the whole process from deciding i wanted my bird to going colecting him was about 2 years. i spent most of that time doing practical based learning at falconry centres, with my mentor and doing my LANTRA award. i do understand what (i think) your trying to say about going your own way with training etc (no 2 birds are alike and cant be trusted to act in the way a book says she will), my own style of training is very different to that used by my mentor, HOWEVER (big however) telling a complete beginner to improvise there own techniques is, in my opionion, asking for trouble. and i personally would rather see newcomers to the hobby all following the principles set out in one book (for example) then adapting them as they gained expereince and knowledge of the birds, than someone thinking they know better than the experts and killing or ruining a bird in the process. we all have to start somewhere and in this hobby trying to run before you can walk runs the risk of killing a innocent bird.

something i think would be of benefit to prople on here is a breakdown of the costs involoved in keeping and flying a BOP (i think loveforlizards did one a while ago but its been lost to the internet ether), as many people seem to think buying the bird is the biggest cost.


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## LoveForLizards

miss_ferret said:


> something i think would be of benefit to prople on here is a breakdown of the costs involoved in keeping and flying a BOP (i think loveforlizards did one a while ago but its been lost to the internet ether),


I did, and the lovely peeps of RFUK happily slagged me off for it. :flrt::lol2:

Whilst I'm not the kind of person who tries to put people off doing something they really want to, I feel it is extremely important that people understand just how much work, time, money and commitment any animal can take, let alone a BoP, and that's not only the initial set-up, but the on-going costs of vets, food, insurance, etc even down to stuff like new leather for equipment, new coping tools, specialist disinfectants, and so on too. Equipment for these cannot be skimped on, you'll spend 2x as much putting right what could've been avoided with buying the better quality (albeit more expensive) equipment in the first place, and it's only to the detriment of the bird in question.


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## mark1981

*hi*

hi miss ferret , basically yeah lol thats what i was trying to say when we write it sounds right to us but a bit different to others and the cost is a good idea loveforlizards there is always someone out there thats not going to agree with anything you say , the cost can go on and on and it is a very time consuming hobby with a lot of money involved too.


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## mark1981

*hi*

i have done a new post and its the same as this post but laid out better so its more understanding to those who find this post a little confusing lol ,


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## Zoo-Man

mark1981 said:


> well who has had that experience unless there dad has a bird of prey or a selection of birds that can have that hands on experience and see how it is all done behind the scenes not many are able to have that opurtunity i have mentioned a few of the things someone must think about and need the knowledge before they go and think about getting a bird *and you can be as petty as talking about how a bell is attached im sure falconers attach there bells in the right way the same as they do with anklets and jesses try telling all those out there how they should keep there birds during the night being teathered or how they should attach the anklets or the mount for the transmitter* its all about reading reading reading watching videos maybe and then trying the hands on or hands on as your reading reading reading and seeing if its for you


Erm, what? I shouldn't have to tell them how to do all those things, as if they had their heads screwed on right, they would know this already as they would have been taught all this from their mentor. 

I don't understand why you are going on about needing to be with a falconer 24 hours a day to get the experience needed, as you will learn nothing during the hours of darkness due to diurnal birds of prey & diurnal owls being asleep!


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## mark1981

Zoo-Man said:


> I wouldn't agree with the higlighted part to be honest. Its no good doing things your own way in falconry. For example, people SHOULD use proper bewits for attaching bells to a hawks legs. Some people however use cable ties to attach a bell to a leg. This is not only uncomfortable for the bird, but can cause injury if the bird starts to tug at the cable tie trying to remove it. A bewit should just come off quite easily if a hawk tugs at it enough, but a cable tie will not. You should follow the recommended methods that have been tried & tested for years!
> 
> to be honest i do not agree with this what happens if a bird starts tugging at its anklets do they just come off , not very likely , im sure the falconer has attached a pair of anklets that have been cut to the right size and put on at the right tightness to not cause the bird any discomfort if it was to pull at them if your out with your bird and the transmitter was to become faulty a falconer would rely on the bell to find the bird because if the transmitter had gone faulty and the bell was tugged of by the bird you would have no chance , and i have never come across anyone that does use cable ties to attach a bell. Im sure people would have read and watched a video maybe to see the correct way to do it or has been shown, majority of people who do research would find the correct way to do things . when you are learning alot of people do not get to see the behind the scenes part obviously they would be reading and watching videos while they are not having hands on experience unless you are volunteer at a sanctuary or centre and not everyone has this oppurtinity.


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## mark1981

you will learn nothing during the hours of darkness due to diurnal birds of prey & diurnal owls being asleep![/QUOTE]

i dont agree with this either and lets not convuse people owls fall into the category of BIRDS OF PREY so it would just be diurnal birds of prey , and i think people use the term nocturnal birds of prey which they would understand better we are trying to educate people here ( i take it you got diurnal from a primate web site ) .


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## mark1981

zoo man can i just ask , when you was researching and finding out the husbandry about primates did you not read a book at all or reseearch on the computer or did you just find a primatologist that showed you how to care for these as these animals need very high captivity requirements how long did you study primates before you actually went to a breeder and purchased a pair or a group.


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## mark1981

oh and i forgot to mention that sometimes the falconer has 2 bells which gives different tones also the bells allow hunters in the area to recognize that the bird is captive i would hate to think of the consequenses of a hunter hearing no bell and seeing a raptor and also if the transmitter was to fail like i have already mentioned no way of hearing or tracking your bird , a bewit is not always needed as many attach the bell to the anklet , it wouldnt be any good if an untrained raptor kept pulling his bell off would it especially out in the field or especially the first time you let it off the creance.


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## mark1981

Zoo-Man said:


> I wouldn't agree with the higlighted part to be honest. Its no good doing things your own way in falconry. For example, people SHOULD use proper bewits for attaching bells to a hawks legs. Some people however use cable ties to attach a bell to a leg. This is not only uncomfortable for the bird, but can cause injury if the bird starts to tug at the cable tie trying to remove it. A bewit should just come off quite easily if a hawk tugs at it enough, but a cable tie will not. You should follow the recommended methods that have been tried & tested for years!
> 
> 
> i dont understand you say that a bewit comes off quite easily ,but then you say if it tugs at it enough, now you and i know and im sure all the falconers out there know that a bird of prey has a very strong beak and neck for pulling , so if its going to tug at the bewit quite a bit its not going to come off easily , i know you have mentioned a cable tie but i wrote this all out to help people in the first place and to show them a little insight of whats involved obviously i dont have the time to write a book and thats why there are books out there that people have wrote to advise people and also to let them read to see if its really for them. when people see birds of prey at a show im sure they look at them and say ( i would love one of those ) but without really knowing whats involved . there is not that many falconers out there that would trust someone to fly there birds without any knowledge whatsoever so a book and a dvd is a good start for someone wanting to get into the falconry world , like i said everyone can have some hands on experience and greatly enjoy and really want to have there dream bird but its ore involved than that and im not being rude zoo man we could go on like this forever but i know my birds and have done vey well i dont need you keep coming back with silly little comments that you have picked out from your under knowledged experience with owning and keeping birds of prey im trying to guide people and thats when i said an example it was just a little insight . im not rude nor do i think im the best falconer out there but with quite a few years experience using falcons and longwings for pest control keeping 6 falcons flying through the day and ready to fly again the next morning i guess i dont really know what im talking about im trying to help people.


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## becky89

Just a couple of points...

I don't feel you should get a bird without going and getting practical experience first, so if someone's been mentored and learned to fly an owl or kestrel then why not get one of these? No disrespect meant to harris owners, but what's the point of telling everyone to get the so called 'easy beginner' harris if they don't really want one of them? The market is flooded with them already, why recommend them when people will fly it for one season then sell on? Learn to fly what you want, and stick with that bird. 

Also there's only so much you can learn from the books and the internet, they're useful, but not everything you need. I learnt so much from going out and flying birds, there's things beginner's just couldn't pick up from a book e.g. knowing when the bird's training you instead of you training it


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## becky89

Another thing I thought of, why do you think there are so many messed up harris hawks about? 
Because people don't spend time going out with other falconer's and learning how to fly and care for them properly, they just think they can do it from reading a book. There are the odd few people who have a knack for falconry, but most don't.


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## miss_ferret

noone is disputing that the best way to learn about birds of prey is by going gaining hands on expereince with the birds, however books are an important learning tool (also i havnt read a book yet that dosent reccomened extensive hands on experience before getting a bird) and a good point of reference for double checking things. noone likes a wannabe whos read a few books and thinks they know everything, but it dosent hurt to pick one up to familierise yourself with terms beforehand. i dont get what this problem people seem to have with falconry books is? no book has ever said that the book is all you need to start falconry. and any book learning is better than the 'iv bought this barn owl and i want to keep it in my living room cos its cute, what seed do i need to feed it?' bregade.

on the subject of cable ties: the closest they come to my bird is when attaching telem as its only on temporarily. for everything else (bells, id thing) i use leather bewits as im not risking him getting some of the cabletie based injuries (even death in some cases) iv seen that they can cause.

and in zoomans defence, he has kept birds of prey before although i dont believe he does now.


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## mark1981

*hi*

miss ferrett i agree totally with you , becky its not just harris hawks that are MESSED UP there are alot of owls and falcons that are too , and you say that someone should go and learn with what bird you want to its not as simple as that , so with just coming into falconry you tell someone that you want to fly a steppe eagle , i think you have answered lots of peoples questions out there your running before you can walk. Im not saying that hands on experience is bad and its the fact that if you cant be bothered to sit there and read a 500 to 600 page book on falconry then you certainly dont have time for these creatures . becky there is no EASY bird of prey as they all have there different personalitys and hang ups like us , no 2 birds of the same breed are the same some of the hybrids may show some of the same signs like straightlining or aggressive behaviour but there all different , owls in my opinion are alot harder to work with they all show a nice docile side like some hawks and falcons do but you have to concentrate more with , wind speed , your surroundings , the noises , even an unexpected shadow appearing can spook an owl just like that and trust me no matter if you threw 10 chicks down on the floor that owl would not take no notice of it and i can guarantee that a chick leg would certainly bring a harris hawk down without a fail , not only that owls will only do what they want to do they can be very lazy .A harris hawk can give you hours of fun following on through the forest or soring , they are very good at holding there mark in high winds too and as miss ferrett has said its the people that ruin the bird by going out buying a bird of prey and not knowing a thing about it


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## mark1981

*hi*

you can go to a falconry centre or find someone that will show you the basics but if you think the hands on approach is better than reading a book and im certainly not saying the hands on approach is bad but when you are with someone and holding an impressive bird people are going to think to them selves ( god what an experience i really am enjoying this ) you can learn the basics with someone but when you come to getting your own bird and something happens your not going to know , someone cant show you absolutely everything and this is why i say books and dvds are very usefull and will certainly feed you alot of information besides having a friend who can show you. say for example someone says they will take you out and teach you the ropes how do you know that this person really knows what there talking about and they have not been shown the wrong way too , they then feed you the wrong information and you go down the same path , if this was to happen and you was to have read a book before getting the hands on experience then you could think to yourself ( well hang on here i know thats not right you can correct the wrongs that are being done ) im not saying there are many out there that dont know what they are doing but i bet there are a few that are . i used to highlite paragraphs in books and put stick it notes in them but that was a long time ago , im not trying to be someone super proffesional falconer cause i can tell you that even 11 years on you still learn things but you add it to you experience that you have already gained:2thumb:


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## mark1981

*hi*

im not here to be petty about things or make arguments im just giving a little of my knowledge i dont think i have been wrong about anything that i have wrote and i think the information i have given is correct im willing to listen if i have made an error but in falconry there is only a certain amount of error you can make and its not very much we all make mistakes through learning but there is a difference with a little mistake on a creance and then there is a mistake which can happen when a bird is in free flight books give u a little bit of info each time that sticks there but if you was on the field with someone teaching you and your being told something but it goes in one ear and out the other because your to busy holding a bird of prey that you are so excited about holding and thinking oh this is definately what i want to do . you go home thinking about the day telling everyone how great it was and how this bird flew to you from a post or a tree and not realising what work has gone into this bird to allow it to do that im not saying this is the case but it does happen . that is why birds get messed up as people dont know how to train them and people dont do enough research on that specific bird and that specific chapter like i said 2 birds are not the same and hands on is good but walking is better than running . its the same as manning the bird does build a certain bond with you but its all about the food . a bird does not look back at you and think i love you and i really want to fly to you .


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## mark1981

*hi*

if you cant be bothered to sit and read a book and learn then you certainly dont have the patience and time to keep a bird of prey , and jpj and nick fox etc are good books also they tell you the history and how long it has been practised for . as an example the one falconry club says ( not all birds are taught to hunt quarry )


Falconry is the sport of taking wild prey (or quarry) in its natural state and habitat by means of trained hawks. It has never been easy, and the present day conditions add many obstacles to the achievement of success in the sport. Mere enthusiasm, momentarily fired by the sight of trained hawks being flown to the lure at a Country Fair, or on a TV programme, is not an adequate base from which to launch oneself into this most difficult of sports. A great deal of dedication and study is needed before a beginner gains a proper understanding of how to manage a hawk. Many falconers choose both their livelihood and their home so that they can have proper opportunities of following their sport, and they sacrifice many other interests to do so.

the beginner, after studying the necessary basic knowledge, should start by training either a Harris Hawk (Parabuteo unicinctus) or a Red Tailed Hawk (Buteo jamaicensis). Both are very capable hunting hawks in most types of countryside and will take a variety of quarry. Other traditional species such as goshawk, sparrow hawk, peregrine and Merlin are either harder to train or require specialist countryside in which they may be flown (eg heather moor land, downland plains or fen country). Older falconry manuals recommend training kestrel but they rarely take acceptable quarry, and due to their small size, fatal mistakes can be made when bringing them into flying condition. One hawk is more than sufficient for most falconers, and certainly for all beginners.

i can comment that not all hunt or go after quarry its up to the individual


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## LoveForLizards

mark1981 said:


> i dont agree with this either and lets not convuse people owls fall into the category of BIRDS OF PREY so it would just be diurnal birds of prey , and i think people use the term nocturnal birds of prey which they would understand better we are trying to educate people here ( i take it you got diurnal from a primate web site ) .


Nocturnal and diurnal are the opposite of each other. Nocturnal = Active primarily/strictly throughout the night. Diurnal = Active primarily/strictly throughout day light hours. Crepuscular = Active primarily during dawn/dusk hours. It is a term used for all animals, so Colin was correct, a diurnal bird would not be active during the night (except for when lamping, but that's whole new ball game).



mark1981 said:


> a bewit is not always needed as many attach the bell to the anklet , it wouldnt be any good if an untrained raptor kept pulling his bell off would it especially out in the field or especially the first time you let it off the creance.


Even when manned, trained, flying/hunting, Todd (An '08 bird) will still happily sit up in a tree and pick at his bells/bewit until he pulls it off (he'll also sit and pull out his flying jesses, but that's not so much of an issue most of the time), I hate to think how much money I've spent in the past on bells alone :blush: For Todd, it's a matter of attaching the bell with a cable tie to his anklet and snipping it off after flying when he's back in his mews. He also has a bell on a tail mount, just to be double sure. Horses for courses and all. I'd prefer to use a bewit if I could, mind.


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## mark1981

*ohh*

oh deer i messed up a little i read it wrong as i was not to happy about the comments and is there anything else i have messed up on or they the only two i have made a mistake on or am i totally wrong about everything that i have wrote


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## mark1981

i did mention diurnal birds of prey , must have got a little muddled up so if you wanna read back i mentioned they all come under the catagory of diurnal except for owls that should have been nocturnal and most owls are nocturnal burrowing owls and short eared owls hunt during the day and the pygmy owl hunts at dusk


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## mark1981

well owls are mixed they are both diurnal and nocturnal but they should be nocturnal but have adapted to both


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## LoveForLizards

You've made some good points through the thread, but not everybody will always agree, especially falconers & bird of prey keepers!


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## mark1981

*hi*

love for lizards those birds are very stubborn . and bells are not cheap lol mind you nor are swivels mind you falconry isnt cheap .:gasp:


----------



## mark1981

*hi*

well i have said before the falconry world is a very funny world its very clicky but you meet some really nice people


----------



## mark1981

*hi*

love for lizards have you ever been lamping , i have not but im told its good , i would love to try it with a european eagle owl . nice owls to fly and very powerfull. there is a place in the falconry word for lamping and its good for people with time restrictions it needs to be done in the right enviroment with care taken over fencing and carried out in the right fashion and to be honest a day time flight is a lot better


----------



## mark1981

*hi*

the cost of falconry can be as cheap or as expensive as one wants to make 

hawking bag - hawking vests
hawking glove ( different thickneses for different birds )
leashes 
swivels ( different breaking strains ) also different sizes for different birds 
creance ( different lengths )
bells (different sizes )
whistles
leather ( for making jesses , anklets and attaching bells )
leather punch 
elasticated casting jacket
tail guards 
coping tools ( coping clippers , coping files ,)
eyelets and an eyelet closing tool (diffrent sizes )
tail mounts
bow perches (different sizes )
digital scales 
travel boxs ( different sizes )
hawk bath ( different sizes )
disinfectant 
telemetry ( reciever and transmitters < different size transmitters )

the list can go on and on and prices vary quite a few good falconry sites with equipment on . 

building the weathering or aviary , materials cost ( heaters optional )

food outlay 

then there is the bird 

harris hawks range from 250 up to 450 if not more , females and males vary in price usually female costing more than the male

insurance including public liability and the i.b.r


----------



## LoveForLizards

mark1981 said:


> love for lizards those birds are very stubborn . and bells are not cheap lol mind you nor are swivels mind you falconry isnt cheap .:gasp:


Psst, if you go to falconry/game fairs, keep your eye on the quality stalls towards the end of the day, and more often than not they reduce bell/swivel prices dramatically. Always learn how to tell good from bad quality though! (Those being the kind of tidbits you get from falconry friends :2thumb



mark1981 said:


> love for lizards have you ever been lamping , i have not but im told its good , i would love to try it with a european eagle owl . nice owls to fly and very powerfull. there is a place in the falconry word for lamping and its good for people with time restrictions it needs to be done in the right enviroment with care taken over fencing and carried out in the right fashion and to be honest a day time flight is a lot better


Never done it 'properly' with our birds yet, but we've been lamping with our mentor for a short while, short because we kept getting rained on when we tried. :blush: Wouldn't mind spending a night out lamping at some point, hopefully this season (and at times we may have no choice). :2thumb:


----------



## mark1981

*hi*

im sure you will get your chance at it properly soon and yeah the bird of prey fairs and displays are brilliant good bargains to be had there , have you seen jpj fly , she is really good.


----------



## becky89

mark1981 said:


> miss ferrett i agree totally with you , becky its not just harris hawks that are MESSED UP there are alot of owls and falcons that are too , and you say that someone should go and learn with what bird you want to its not as simple as that , so with just coming into falconry you tell someone that you want to fly a steppe eagle , i think you have answered lots of peoples questions out there your running before you can walk. Im not saying that hands on experience is bad and its the fact that if you cant be bothered to sit there and read a 500 to 600 page book on falconry then you certainly dont have time for these creatures -I avoided mentioning books because it had been said plenty of times in this thread that it's important, I dont feel different-. becky there is no EASY bird of prey -So why do you keep saying for everyone to get a harris then if all birds will challenge you? Surely if none are easy then most can be suitable if sufficient training is given?- as they all have there different personalitys and hang ups like us , no 2 birds of the same breed are the same some of the hybrids may show some of the same signs like straightlining or aggressive behaviour but there all different , owls in my opinion are alot harder to work with they all show a nice docile side like some hawks and falcons do but you have to concentrate more with , wind speed , your surroundings , the noises , even an unexpected shadow appearing can spook an owl just like that and trust me no matter if you threw 10 chicks down on the floor that owl would not take no notice of it and i can guarantee that a chick leg would certainly bring a harris hawk down without a fail , not only that owls will only do what they want to do they can be very lazy .A harris hawk can give you hours of fun following on through the forest or soring , they are very good at holding there mark in high winds too and as miss ferrett has said its the people that ruin the bird by going out buying a bird of prey and not knowing a thing about it-She is very correct, however did I not say similar in a previous post?


You missed my point a bit. Yes I understand there are other birds that are messed up, but the harris seems to draw more attention. My main point is you seem to always be saying every beginner should get a harris because they're easy. My point is why should someone get one, fly it for one season, then sell it on? It floods the market with them because there are many people who just didn't want that bird in the first place, or because they think they can 'train' a harris so they're ready for their goshawk.
Obviously eagles and shortwings are a different kettle of fish, so I'm not even say anymore on that, that was a bit of a silly response from you. 
I can honestly say I've never wanted a harris hawk, it doesn't matter how much fun they are I'd rather have a different bird providing I'm capable of caring for it properly.



mark1981 said:


> you can go to a falconry centre or find someone that will show you the basics but if you think the hands on approach is better than reading a book and im certainly not saying the hands on approach is bad but when you are with someone and holding an impressive bird people are going to think to them selves ( god what an experience i really am enjoying this ) -This is why I'm not a huge fan of people just going on Lantra course's or similar, too much to digest and yes exciting too. But if you can do long term voluntary work that is good-you can learn the basics with someone but when you come to getting your own bird and something happens your not going to know , someone cant show you absolutely everything and this is why i say books and dvds are very usefull -Also useful to have someone you can call or have visit if you have a problem, and that need can specifically be met, a dvd can't feel how sharp your bird's keel is!-and will certainly feed you alot of information besides having a friend who can show you. say for example someone says they will take you out and teach you the ropes how do you know that this person really knows what there talking about and they have not been shown the wrong way too ,* they then feed you the wrong information and you go down the same path* ,-That's a very fair and true point, so I do agree with you, this is where books can be useful. if this was to happen and you was to have read a book before getting the hands on experience then you could think to yourself ( well hang on here i know thats not right you can correct the wrongs that are being done ) im not saying there are many out there that dont know what they are doing but i bet there are a few that are . i used to highlite paragraphs in books and put stick it notes in them but that was a long time ago , im not trying to be someone super proffesional falconer cause i can tell you that even 11 years on you still learn things but you add it to you experience that you have already gained:2thumb:





mark1981 said:


> im not here to be petty about things or make arguments im just giving a little of my knowledge i dont think i have been wrong about anything that i have wrote and i think the information i have given is correct im willing to listen if i have made an error but in falconry there is only a certain amount of error you can make and its not very much we all make mistakes through learning but there is a difference with a little mistake on a creance and then there is a mistake which can happen when a bird is in free flight books give u a little bit of info each time that sticks there but if you was on the field with someone teaching you and your being told something but it goes in one ear and out the other because your to busy holding a bird of prey that you are so excited about holding and thinking oh this is definately what i want to do .-That's true, but maybe I'm just not as excitable as other people, but once I'd been out a few times I wasn't jumping around excited every time, once you get used to it you are calm enough to listen  you go home thinking about the day telling everyone how great it was and how this bird flew to you from a post or a tree and not realising what work has gone into this bird to allow it to do that im not saying this is the case but it does happen . that is why birds get messed up as people dont know how to train them and people dont do enough research on that specific bird and that specific chapter like i said 2 birds are not the same and hands on is good but walking is better than running . its the same as manning the bird does build a certain bond with you but its all about the food . a bird does not look back at you and think i love you and i really want to fly to you .





mark1981 said:


> if you cant be bothered to sit and read a book and learn then you certainly dont have the patience and time to keep a bird of prey , and jpj and nick fox etc are good books also they tell you the history and how long it has been practised for . as an example the one falconry club says ( not all birds are taught to hunt quarry )
> Hope that isn't a dig at me, I've plenty of time for falconry books, and have read a few.


Points in red above ^ Probably best to agree to disagree!


----------



## Zoo-Man

mark1981 said:


> you will learn nothing during the hours of darkness due to diurnal birds of prey & diurnal owls being asleep!


i dont agree with this either and lets not convuse people owls fall into the category of BIRDS OF PREY so it would just be diurnal birds of prey , and i think people use the term nocturnal birds of prey which they would understand better we are trying to educate people here ( i take it you got diurnal from a primate web site ) .[/QUOTE]

I don't really understand the meaning of this paragraph. 

But there are diurnal birds of prey, there are diurnal owls, & there are nocturnal owls.

Why would I have got the word 'diurnal' from a primate website? Do you think I learnt that word from the internet?



mark1981 said:


> zoo man can i just ask , when you was researching and finding out the husbandry about primates did you not read a book at all or reseearch on the computer or did you just find a primatologist that showed you how to care for these as these animals need very high captivity requirements how long did you study primates before you actually went to a breeder and purchased a pair or a group.


Actually there are hardly any decent websites about primates that I have found, & there are one or two books about keeping primates that are ok. My good friend & ex-boss taught me a lot about keeping marmosets, & it was he who sourced my pair for me. I learnt bits from one website, but most of what I took on board was from actual people.


----------



## Zoo-Man

mark1981 said:


> Zoo-Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't agree with the higlighted part to be honest. Its no good doing things your own way in falconry. For example, people SHOULD use proper bewits for attaching bells to a hawks legs. Some people however use cable ties to attach a bell to a leg. This is not only uncomfortable for the bird, but can cause injury if the bird starts to tug at the cable tie trying to remove it. A bewit should just come off quite easily if a hawk tugs at it enough, but a cable tie will not. You should follow the recommended methods that have been tried & tested for years!
> 
> 
> i dont understand you say that a bewit comes off quite easily ,but then you say if it tugs at it enough, now you and i know and im sure all the falconers out there know that a bird of prey has a very strong beak and neck for pulling , so if its going to tug at the bewit quite a bit its not going to come off easily , i know you have mentioned a cable tie but i wrote this all out to help people in the first place and to show them a little insight of whats involved obviously i dont have the time to write a book and thats why there are books out there that people have wrote to advise people and also to let them read to see if its really for them. when people see birds of prey at a show im sure they look at them and say ( i would love one of those ) but without really knowing whats involved . there is not that many falconers out there that would trust someone to fly there birds without any knowledge whatsoever so a book and a dvd is a good start for someone wanting to get into the falconry world , like i said everyone can have some hands on experience and greatly enjoy and really want to have there dream bird but its ore involved than that and im not being rude zoo man we could go on like this forever but i know my birds and have done vey well *i dont need you keep coming back with silly little comments that you have picked out from your under knowledged experience with owning and keeping birds of prey* im trying to guide people and thats when i said an example it was just a little insight . im not rude nor do i think im the best falconer out there but with quite a few years experience using falcons and longwings for pest control keeping 6 falcons flying through the day and ready to fly again the next morning i guess i dont really know what im talking about im trying to help people.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know what experience & knowledge I have with birds of prey?
Click to expand...


----------



## mark1981

*hi*

to be totally honest i cant be bothered to reply back to pointless messages did you read the paragraph that come from a well known falconry school a few pages back and i dont think i have given any silly points in the paragraphs . i think we are just going round in circles and zooman i corrected myself with regards to that , but hey we are all allowed an opinion some are wrong and others totally spot on but thats life im afraid i could comment on the comments that have been made up above but i dont see this helping people .


----------



## Zoo-Man

mark1981 said:


> to be totally honest i cant be bothered to reply back to pointless messages did you read the paragraph that come from a well known falconry school a few pages back and i dont think i have given any silly points in the paragraphs . i think we are just going round in circles and zooman i corrected myself with regards to that , but hey we are all allowed an opinion some are wrong and others totally spot on but thats life im afraid i could comment on the comments that have been made up above but i dont see this helping people .


I'd still like to know why you think I have 'underknowledged experience'!


----------



## mark1981

*hi*

falconers usually tend to keep the birds that they buy and train not get rid of them


----------



## mark1981

*hi*

zooman lol :bash: give it a rest your acting like a little kid now i really really could not care less what experience you have .


----------



## Zoo-Man

mark1981 said:


> zooman lol :bash: give it a rest your acting like a little kid now i really really could not care less what experience you have .


_I'm _acting like a kid??? :lol2: Your posts read badly, & I have to read them at least twice before I get some sort of idea what you are meaning.

And obviously you do care about what experience I have, or you wouldn't have stated about my so-called 'underknowledged experience'!


----------



## mark1981

:2thumb:


----------



## mark1981

*hi*

hey well atleast if your reading them twice your learning something mate better to read twice than once : victory: if i was writing total crap why would you even bother reading it at all ,if your not interestd in helping others dont comment at all its quite easy


----------



## Zoo-Man

mark1981 said:


> hey well atleast if your reading them twice your learning something mate better to read twice than once : victory:


Im not learning anything personally


----------



## mark1981

well its easy then, dont comment and allow others too learn :2thumb:


----------



## Zoo-Man

mark1981 said:


> well its easy then, dont comment and allow others too learn :2thumb:


I commented initially to say that what you had put wasn't correct, about doing things your own way, & about reading as much as you can before getting a bird. I did this to help anyone else who may read your thread who have little or no knowledge of falconry, as they may have read your first post, thought "I can read a few books, then get a kestrel, & if I think I can do something on the cheap or as a short-cut, I will, as that is what he is saying there". I.e, I posted to help others who may read this thread, & also to help the birds that these people may go out & get.


----------



## LoveForLizards

mark1981 said:


> im sure you will get your chance at it properly soon and yeah the bird of prey fairs and displays are brilliant good bargains to be had there , have you seen jpj fly , she is really good.



To be honest, I've seen her fly at various displays and didn't think much compared to a lot of others. :blush: As far as flying displays go, I much prefered Ye Olde Redtail Falconry's display at last year's Midlands game fair, I think it was at that fair, anyway.


----------



## mark1981

:gasp: lol dont let her hear you say that pmsl it was a long time ago i see her fly , the british falconry and raptor fair , most of the time was spent looking around the stalls . very hectic and busy day .


----------



## mark1981

*hi*

zooman i have not told anyone to go and buy a book read it and then get a bird nor have i said do anything cheaply or take a short cut what are you going on about , your sounding very silly , please mate your doing my head in now why keep replying like a kid that wants the last word please read this twice and leave off now :2thumb:


----------



## Zoo-Man

mark1981 said:


> zooman i have not told anyone to go and buy a book read it and then get a bird , please mate your doing my head in now why keep replying like a kid that wants the last word please read this twice and leave off now :2thumb:


I didn't say you told anyone to read a book & then get a BOP! maybe YOU should read MY posts twice! :lol2: I said newbies might read your post, & then think "he is saying to read a few books & then get a BOP".


----------



## mark1981

*hi*

well i would hope that new comers to falconry was researching and reading before getting into this hobby to see if its really for them and i have not said read a few books and get a bird of prey , why are you still going on , grow up mate you really are childish what does it take to get the hint if you dont like what i have put dont COMMENT its not irritating its just the fact that you cant help yourelf and keep coming back and back and back when someone says what i have said to you quite a few times can you really not take the hint 

:2thumb:


----------



## Zoo-Man

mark1981 said:


> well i would hope that new comers to falconry was researching and reading before getting into this hobby to see if its really for them and i* have not said read a few books and get a bird of prey , why are you still going on* , grow up mate you really are childish what does it take to get the hint if you dont like what i have put dont COMMENT its not irritating its just the fact that you cant help yourelf and keep coming back and back and back when someone says what i have said to you quite a few times can you really not take the hint
> 
> :2thumb:


Read my previous post again :whistling2:


----------



## mark1981

*hi*

i dont need to read your posts there is nothing wrong with my posts either , how old are you , go and find something usefull to do : victory: . seriously you really need to grow up and stop going on and on your making yourself look like a kid .


----------



## Zoo-Man

mark1981 said:


> i dont need to read your posts there is nothing wrong with my posts either , how old are you , go and find something usefull to do : victory: . seriously you really need to grow up and stop going on and on your making yourself look like a kid .


You really should re-read my earlier post, as it answers your query you posed in your last post. I am 29 btw.


----------



## LoveForLizards

mark1981 said:


> :gasp: lol dont let her hear you say that pmsl it was a long time ago i see her fly , the british falconry and raptor fair , most of the time was spent looking around the stalls . .



Don't I know it! I have had the, uhm, pleasure :lol2: of speaking to her in person before now. She scared me, truth be told. :blush::lol2:


----------



## becky89

mark1981 said:


> well i would hope that new comers to falconry was researching and reading before getting into this hobby to see if its really for them and* i have not said read a few books and get a bird of prey* , why are you still going on , grow up mate you really are childish what does it take to get the hint if you dont like what i have put dont COMMENT its not irritating its just the fact that you cant help yourelf and keep coming back and back and back when someone says what i have said to you quite a few times can you really not take the hint
> 
> :2thumb:


But that is _exactly _what you are saying! You're basically saying that people should read some books, get a harris hawk and they'll be a fantastic falconer! I seriously hope any beginners reading this take everything you say with a pinch of salt. There is much better and clearer advice given on this thread by other posters. 
Not going to bother posting on this thread anymore, it's a waste of time, just going around in circles.


----------



## mark1981

*hi*

Becky I think you need to grow up too you said in your post that someone who wants to fly birds of prey should go and pick the bird they like the look of and then buy one or train with it and to be honest that is total rubbish that's why I said about a steppe eagle a beginner likes the look of this bird and they should start off with it , or if a beginner liked the look of a falcon they should start out with this type of bird , that's totally irresponsible. I suggest people read back over beckys post and read it carefully and take no notice of what she has said as it is the most stupid thing I have heard people can do what they like with this post but becky you sound like a very silly little immature girl don't post back on here unless you have any thing productive to say if you don't want to help people . Why do you always get that select few that have to spoil and mess a genuine post up , I think you need to go back to basics becky and start over mind you with your attitude I wouldn't feel safe with someone and your attitude flying these animals . 
:2thumb:


----------



## becky89

mark1981 said:


> Becky I think you need to grow up too you said in your post that someone who wants to fly birds of prey should go and pick the bird they like the look of and then buy one or train with it and to be honest that is total rubish that's why I said about a steppe eagle a beginner likes the look of this bird and they should start off with it , or if a beginner liked the look of a falcon they should start out witj the bird they want to , that's totally irresponsible. I suggest people read back over beckys post and read it carefully and take no notice of what she has said as it is the most stupid thing I have heard people can do what they like with this post but I think becky you sound like a very silly little immature girl don't post back on here unless you have any thing productive to say if you don't want to help people . Why do you always get that select few that have to spoil and mess a genuine post up , I think you need to go back to basics becky and start over mind you with your attitude I wouldn't feel safe with someone and your attitude flying these animals .
> :2thumb:


Right, I wasn't going to reply again but now you're just being rude. 
I did say you should go for a bird you like, but do I have to specifically state every bird you should or shouldn't go for??? If you read one of my previous posts properly I said eagles and shortwings are different to other birds, and I wasn't going to bother saying more because your comment was so ridiculous!! Anyone with common sense will not go for an eagle, so stop making me out to be stupid. 
As I keep saying, why shouldn't someone choose an owl, or falcon or a bird other than a harris if they have the relevant experience. If someone has learned how to fly a kestrel with a mentor what's the point of getting a harris hawk for their own first bird? 
I'm 21, I'm mature enough thank you, and I don't need some pillock who's stuck up his own buttocks to tell me to grow up. Some of your advice is poor, although I doubt any beginner could make head or tail from your posts which is quite lucky I suppose.


----------



## mark1981

*hi*

I recommended a harris hawk and how am I being rude , your the one who has come back talking about buttocks and pillock and I'm not making you out to be thick you have made it very clear yourself , I doubt any mentor as you call it would allow a beginner to fly a falcon , explain becky where you would have got the relevant experience from to be able to take on a falcon as a beginner , I know and doubt a falconer would allow you to fly a falcon as a beginner this would be a very foolish and selfish act on the bird knowing full well if it was a fit falcon flying at you with very fast speeds and swooping at you don't be so pathetic if you are starting out those birds are a no go if you have not had any experience with no bird of prey at all and it does not matter if you have a mentor showing how to fly a falcon if you have not had any experience with a slower bird in flight how do you expect to learn with a falcon at those speeds it would be a stupid act that could kill the bird or you.


----------



## mark1981

*hi*

Like I said becky most falconers keep there harris hawks and buzzards etc and not many pass there birds on and if they do its going to another decent falconer , I think you need to pull your head out of that big dream your having and it shows who is an adult and a kid with your pathetic remarks and your swear words not thinking about children that may pick up your foul language and saying I was not going to reply to your post but I am , grow up. : victory:


----------



## mark1981

*hi*

Becky if you think this is such an ill advised and pathetic pinch of salt post I suggest you report it to a moderator as I think I have explained myself very well indeed it may not be full of .... Or ,,,,,,,


----------



## miss_ferret

LoveForLizards said:


> To be honest, I've seen her fly at various displays and didn't think much compared to a lot of others. :blush: As far as flying displays go, I much prefered Ye Olde Redtail Falconry's display at last year's Midlands game fair, I think it was at that fair, anyway.


im not the biggest jpj fan either tbh, dont agree with her on some points and have it on good authority that shes a complete cow but generally she knows her stuff and is the only person to write books specificly about the training and flying of owls, so as there my big pasion im kind of stuck with her :lol2: that said the guy who did my LANTRA training was talking about writing an owl book (not letting jpj corner the market and so on) so theres hope...


----------



## mark1981

*hi*

lol , well if owls are your passion then your stuck , i dont think there is many birds of prey books that have owls in them i think ? they try and keep owls seperate from other birds of prey when your learning about them in falconry. one of my favourites (well all are favourites ) is the indian scops owl , great little personalitys great little bird in small flights too and from a perch but not too much can be done with them but everyone loves them when you have them at a fete or fair. I like snowys too but not sure if i would keep one i dont like seeing them trying hard to cool themselfes down in certain weather when i have seen them in person. europeans are great .


----------



## LoveForLizards

miss_ferret said:


> im not the biggest jpj fan either tbh, dont agree with her on some points and have it on good authority that shes a complete cow but generally she knows her stuff and is the only person to write books specificly about the training and flying of owls, so as there my big pasion im kind of stuck with her :lol2: that said the guy who did my LANTRA training was talking about writing an owl book (not letting jpj corner the market and so on) so theres hope...


I don't agree with her on some (a lot!) of points, but that stuff is horses for courses as with anything, so I just take it as differing opinions. It's a shame there isn't more specific bird of prey books about, I for one would love to see a 'complete guide' for Common Buzzards much like Lee William Harris' The Harris Hawk, aimed at beginners to the sport/hobby. Excellent birds, but over the last decade or so they seem to be getting less and less popular in favour of the Harris.


----------



## mark1981

*hi*

It is a shame that they dont do a specific species bird of prey book , there is a site called Falconry books uk but i have never ordered off there but it does look like there are some good books on there .Buzzards are a nice bird , they follow on ice too , very responive.


----------



## babydiesel

*Please help*

HIIIIII......

I am very new at this and am not sure what I am meant to be doing 100%, i have a baby Harris 4-5weeks old, he is very lazy and food that he eats is at a minimum. 
I understand that he is still young and alot off sleep and not alot of food is expected(I think  ), but he sleeps all day and food is to a very low minimum, he just wont eat. 

My friend owns 2 Harris Hawks but she is away and I need to stand on my feet till she comes back to help. 
But.... I am very stuck and am not sure if i am dong everything rite...

so please any advise or help is appreciated.

THANKYOU......XXX


----------



## miss_ferret

he needs to be on heat, hes not 'lazy' and 'sleeping' hes cold. a bird of that age needs heat to eat, and will need it for another 3/4 weeks. get a heat lamp of some description ASAP or, to be blunt, your likely to loose the bird. if that dosent work it needs a raptor vet, not waiting till your freind comes back.

if i where you id ask on the falconry forum for an experienced falconer to come round before the worst happens.

iv deleated the last paragraph i wrote as im going to stop there before i go compleatly off on one.


----------



## LoveForLizards

babydiesel said:


> HIIIIII......
> 
> I am very new at this and am not sure what I am meant to be doing 100%, i have a baby Harris 4-5weeks old, he is very lazy and food that he eats is at a minimum.
> I understand that he is still young and alot off sleep and not alot of food is expected(I think  ), but he sleeps all day and food is to a very low minimum, he just wont eat.
> 
> My friend owns 2 Harris Hawks but she is away and I need to stand on my feet till she comes back to help.
> But.... I am very stuck and am not sure if i am dong everything rite...
> 
> so please any advise or help is appreciated.
> 
> THANKYOU......XXX


I take it this is your first bird? A Harris Hawk away from it's parents need a well experienced and knowledgable hand in order to be hand reared, they are nothing like owls/some falcons and even the tiniest mistakes can cause anxiety and bad aggression when trying to imprint a Harris. I can't stress enough just how much this bird needs an experienced keeper at the moment. How did you end up with a 4 week old Harris chick anyway? A 4-5 week old bird isn't lazy, they generally have short (as in, 5-20 minutes) spurts of energy then sleep, crap, and eat. That's it. Literally. Weigh him every 3-5 days and make sure it's putting on weight, if it's alert and happy I doubt it's under eating. They won't eat much at that age anyway, just check a couple of times a day (you don't want to be hand feeding or feeding from the glove at this point) to make sure he has a round, plump belly (this won't be constant, only after he's had a decent feed) and he should be fine. Approximately how much is he eating daily, and what food are you feeding? Any supplements?



miss_ferret said:


> he needs to be on heat, hes not 'lazy' and 'sleeping' hes cold. a bird of that age needs heat to eat, and will need it for another 3/4 weeks. get a heat lamp of some description ASAP or, to be blunt, your likely to loose the bird. if that dosent work it needs a raptor vet, not waiting till your freind comes back.
> 
> if i where you id ask on the falconry forum for an experienced falconer to come round before the worst happens.
> 
> iv deleated the last paragraph i wrote as im going to stop there before i go compleatly off on one.


A bird at that age shouldn't need extra heat :2thumb: If he's fluffed up a normal household temperature (20-24C-ish) should be fine, just watch out if he isn't alert or he's sitting huddled into a corner looking drowsy. 

Sorry if any of this sounds bitchy, it's really not meant that way. :blush:


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## miss_ferret

LoveForLizards said:


> A bird at that age shouldn't need extra heat :2thumb: If he's fluffed up a normal household temperature (20-24C-ish) should be fine, just watch out if he isn't alert or he's sitting huddled into a corner looking drowsy.
> 
> Sorry if any of this sounds bitchy, it's really not meant that way. :blush:


learn someting new everyday, i was told they needed heat of some discription until 5/6 weeks, that could be for if there outside though? that said its been a while since i did anything involving the breeding side of things and mine was 8 weeks and well off heat when i got him. he was pretty active and a greedy pig aswell. im confused now, think munch was abnormal :lol2:


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## LoveForLizards

miss_ferret said:


> learn someting new everyday, i was told they needed heat of some discription until 5/6 weeks, that could be for if there outside though? that said its been a while since i did anything involving the breeding side of things and mine was 8 weeks and well off heat when i got him. he was pretty active and a greedy pig aswell. im confused now, think munch was abnormal :lol2:


For _most_ birds (some species, especially the tinies, and sick birds etc), it's OK for them to come off supplemental heat if they're inside in a room-temp room. All of our chicks and chicks we've met when going to the breeders etc (everybody loves getting attacked by a swarm of owl chicks! :no1 have been pretty slow only having small bursts of energy until 7-9 weeks, at which point everything needs to be tasted, jumped on, played with, picked at, etc, and when they start flying... That's where the real fun begins. :lol2: But 3-6/7 weeks they just seem amazed at everything, so it's more of a 'watch and learn' time frame, IME. Temperature _is_ definitely something to monitor if the bird really isn't eating much and acting lazy/drowsy all the time though.


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## babydiesel

miss_ferret said:


> he needs to be on heat, hes not 'lazy' and 'sleeping' hes cold. a bird of that age needs heat to eat, and will need it for another 3/4 weeks. get a heat lamp of some description ASAP or, to be blunt, your likely to loose the bird. if that dosent work it needs a raptor vet, not waiting till your freind comes back.
> 
> if i where you id ask on the falconry forum for an experienced falconer to come round before the worst happens.
> 
> iv deleated the last paragraph i wrote as im going to stop there before i go compleatly off on one.


( OMG I had no idea, im am going to get a heat lamp thank you for that, so he wont eat if he's not warm?


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## miss_ferret

babydiesel said:


> ( OMG I had no idea, im am going to get a heat lamp thank you for that, so he wont eat if he's not warm?


theres a bit of confusion now sorry :blush: from what i was told he may need heat, but loveforlizards dosent think its the case. could you post more information? when you say lazy what exactly do you mean? and what are you feeding? do you have an idea of what the temp of the room is? if hes in a cold room then lack of heat could still be the cause of the problem.


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## babydiesel

miss_ferret said:


> theres a bit of confusion now sorry :blush: from what i was told he may need heat, but loveforlizards dosent think its the case. could you post more information? when you say lazy what exactly do you mean? and what are you feeding? do you have an idea of what the temp of the room is? if hes in a cold room then lack of heat could still be the cause of the problem.


hehex aaww its ok!! 
the temp of the house is about 28dg i think, 
he just sleeps and dont wana move round, and hell have a bit of food and not finish up!


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## LoveForLizards

28C? If that's the case (seems a little warm for a normal household though. Best bet would be to get a digital thermometer and test it) I'd be tempted to A. get him somewhere slightly cooler, around 24C, and if no improvement within 18 hours or so take him to a vet. Unless you're constantly prodding him to get up he shouldn't be acting as if he doesn't want to move around. How are you feeding him? And what/how much at a time?


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## babydiesel

LoveForLizards said:


> 28C? If that's the case (seems a little warm for a normal household though. Best bet would be to get a digital thermometer and test it) I'd be tempted to A. get him somewhere slightly cooler, around 24C, and if no improvement within 18 hours or so take him to a vet. Unless you're constantly prodding him to get up he shouldn't be acting as if he doesn't want to move around. How are you feeding him? And what/how much at a time?


ok i will do that....

I feeding him mostly chicken, he likes the insides, and he only has a few bites at a time ill try about 4times a day and each time hell have a bite or two...

He does move around a little, but he's always lieing around, sleeping.


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## LoveForLizards

babydiesel said:


> ok i will do that....
> 
> I feeding him mostly chicken, he likes the insides, and he only has a few bites at a time ill try about 4times a day and each time hell have a bite or two...
> 
> He does move around a little, but he's always lieing around, sleeping.


Trying getting some mice, take out the stomach, and mince/chop them up finely, pop some in a shallow dish or on a lid of some sort (coffee jar lids work well, otherwise just a normal Tupperware container one) and put it in his pen/box/what ever you're keeping him in whilst he's sleeping and leave him to it. Chicks without supplement aren't great for a bird of his age as he needs plenty of nutrition for growing. Whole mice, quail, rat, etc are much better, or a good supplement over his chicks. I'd still be tempted to get him checked out by an experienced avian vet or a well experienced falconer/keeper, one that has raised chicks before though, just to be on the safe side. :2thumb:


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## babydiesel

LoveForLizards said:


> Trying getting some mice, take out the stomach, and mince/chop them up finely, pop some in a shallow dish or on a lid of some sort (coffee jar lids work well, otherwise just a normal Tupperware container one) and put it in his pen/box/what ever you're keeping him in whilst he's sleeping and leave him to it. Chicks without supplement aren't great for a bird of his age as he needs plenty of nutrition for growing. Whole mice, quail, rat, etc are much better, or a good supplement over his chicks. I'd still be tempted to get him checked out by an experienced avian vet or a well experienced falconer/keeper, one that has raised chicks before though, just to be on the safe side. :2thumb:


ive booked an appointment for him, because i am a little worried about him, i feed him mainly chicken he likes the insides but i think thats the problem, he needs other foods....


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## bloodpython22

mark1981 said:


> love for lizards have you ever been lamping , i have not but im told its good , i would love to try it with a european eagle owl . nice owls to fly and very powerfull. there is a place in the falconry word for lamping and its good for people with time restrictions it needs to be done in the right enviroment with care taken over fencing and carried out in the right fashion and to be honest a day time flight is a lot better


Iv lamped. But i would not try it with my e.e.o if they were to get in a tree at night you would not get them down as they loose interest so quick. Plus best time to fly these is at first light iv found wich is there natural hunting time. . 
There is alot of falconers that go lamping still


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## mark1981

*hi*

did you enjoy the lamping bloodpython and what bird did you use , no thats true some owls can get bored quite quickly and be very stuborn , i have heard of a few hunting european eagle owls but i guess its personal preference , perhaps i will try it one evening


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## bloodpython22

mark1981 said:


> did you enjoy the lamping bloodpython and what bird did you use , no thats true some owls can get bored quite quickly and be very stuborn , i have heard of a few hunting european eagle owls but i guess its personal preference , perhaps i will try it one ewevening


We used peri/skr. . Yeah i no a few people that have hunted with e.e.o but they would take anything out. I dont hunt mine as the female tries to kill you if you get to close and the male is blind in left eye they were a resuce from someone who mistreated them plus owls are hard to train as they loose interest so quick if they hear noises ect


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## SilverSky

bloodpython22 said:


> plus owls are hard to train as they loose interest so quick if they hear noises ect


i disagree with this statement, so long as their weight is right owls can be very focused, yes a young owl can be very easily distracted but they just need to be dropped down in weight enough while you first train them and they'll soon get used to other noises etc going on when you bring the weight up a little


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## babydiesel

LoveForLizards said:


> 28C? If that's the case (seems a little warm for a normal household though. Best bet would be to get a digital thermometer and test it) I'd be tempted to A. get him somewhere slightly cooler, around 24C, and if no improvement within 18 hours or so take him to a vet. Unless you're constantly prodding him to get up he shouldn't be acting as if he doesn't want to move around. How are you feeding him? And what/how much at a time?


i have taken him to the vet they have said that he has a chest infection and he is unable to stand due to the lack of calcium in his body. they have given me tablets for his chest infection and told me to give him calcium tablets for his strength, what types of food do i give him for strength he is nearly 6weeks now and is still not using his feet...


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## LoveForLizards

babydiesel said:


> i have taken him to the vet they have said that he has a chest infection and he is unable to stand due to the lack of calcium in his body. they have given me tablets for his chest infection and told me to give him calcium tablets for his strength, what types of food do i give him for strength he is nearly 6weeks now and is still not using his feet...


 *Edit*
Quail, rat, mouse, guinea pig, hamster, gerbil will all see him good, he preferably needs to be eating all components of his food (roughage, bones, skin, flesh, organ) at this point. Any chance you can get hold of a hand mincer? That may make it easier for you to get food into him without him getting full too quickly. Are you giving him any supplements on his chicks?
By the way, what vets did you take him too? I'd have thought for such a young bird they'd have given you a liquid to put in his food...


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## babydiesel

LoveForLizards said:


> *Edit*
> Quail, rat, mouse, guinea pig, hamster, gerbil will all see him good, he preferably needs to be eating all components of his food (roughage, bones, skin, flesh, organ) at this point. Any chance you can get hold of a hand mincer? That may make it easier for you to get food into him without him getting full too quickly. Are you giving him any supplements on his chicks?
> By the way, what vets did you take him too? I'd have thought for such a young bird they'd have given you a liquid to put in his food...


OK ill try all those from today!!! 

they gave me tablets not liquid I have to give to him and forcefully, ,,
I took him to Amicus vets in Shirley.

were do you buy your pets food from??


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## LoveForLizards

If he's strong enough to be taking chunks of food, snip a chick's head off the body at the bottom of the neck (As far from the head as possible), puncture the roof of the mouth, squeeze out the brain, pop the tablet inside the head through the puncture hole and see if he'll take that. We get most of our bird food (chicks, rats, mice, quail) from Kiezebrink, other stuff such as the occasional hamster or gerbil is from a local reptile shop.


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## mark1981

*hi*

babydiesel where did you aquire the bird and was it your friend that offered to help you with the bird and training , are they back off holiday now and if you dont mind me asking how comes you got a harris hawk at such a young age , what are your intentions with this bird .


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## mark1981

*hi*

i take it you are imprinting this bird babydiesel


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## mrcriss

I had an excellent introduction to falconry a couple of weeks back. I would really recommend going on an experience day to whet your appetite, but also to learn what a massive commitment it is, and all the essentials that you need to know.
http://www.falconrydisplaydays.co.uk/
Kevin and Jo were brilliant! They installed a real interest, but also really warned everyone how much responsibility and cost is incurred by owning a BOP. I also got to learn all about every type of equipment aswell.....fantastic day!

















They'll be at the next meeting of the Manchester Reptile Club on May 22nd if you want to come along and meet them!:2thumb:


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## mark1981

*hi*

hi there , i would say that a falconry experience day is a very enjoyable day but i wouldnt go as far as to say you will learn all the esentials that you ever need to know about falconry , it takes a little longer than a day to learn all of the essentials that you will need to know in keeping and flying a bird of prey but these days are very enjoyable for anyone wishing to go on one . :2thumb:


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## mrcriss

mark1981 said:


> hi there , i would say that a falconry experience day is a very enjoyable day but* i wouldnt go as far as to say you will learn all the esentials that you ever need to know about falconry *, it takes a little longer than a day to learn all of the essentials that you will need to know in keeping and flying a bird of prey but these days are very enjoyable for anyone wishing to go on one . :2thumb:


If anyone read from my post that they would be fully set up to own a BOP after only one experience day, then I apologise. I like to credit people with a little more intelligence than that, but that may be the optimist in me!:whistling2:

Kevin (our instructor) was very keen to impress upon us that the day was to give a flavour of what it's like, but a perspective owner would require a great deal of one on one mentorship before purchasing a bird for themselves.

'nuff said!:whip:


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## jambo1984

i would so love a BOP ive wanted one for a few years ive priced everything up though its a bit dear when you have 4 monitor lizards to feed


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