# Bearded Dragon death...So angry!!!



## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

I sold a bearded dragon female to someone who i thought gave the impression that he knew what he was doing. 

He was fully aware that she had been brumating and wasn`t feeding very well, she was also a bit dehydrated due to not feeding. I only decided to rehome her due to my current circumstances and my lack of time, knowledge etc to get her feeding. I wish i hadn`t now.

She was advertised as not being in the best of health, and i sold her giving him full information about her condition and behaviour, he had a good look at her before he took her and still wanted to take her. Her price very much reflected her condition, and took only a token gesture money wise to ensure that she wasn`t seen as "free to a good home"

I`d been working on her dehydration by bathing her and spraying her with a reptiboost solution, and had been assist feeding her a pinky once a week until she`d got herself going again. I told him what i`d been doing and he said he would continue with it.

Less than 18 hours after he took her home i get an email....



> Its ***** who brought the sick female bd from you. Just letting you know shes suviving still but she is very sleepy, she opens her eyes whenever you move or pick her up but apart from that not at all. Did she used to move around much or eat on her own acord when you had her? Just wondering if she as changed at all since she came here, so far we have force fed her quite alot with liquidised veg, water and calcium so i dont think she is dehydrating much anymore if at all. My main concern is weather she will ever eat on her own acord again thats why im asking if she did when you had her. Also how did you get her to eat that pinky? she pooped that out today and it didnt look digested at all, i guess she asnt got enough energy to digest solids no more. I will continue to force feed her every day until something happens, she definatly wont die from lack of food/water this way but its just a question of weather she as a illness that cant be cured.


I replied with the answers and told him to be very careful about forcefeeding her, as she was still technically brumating, and as she hadn`t digested the pink it was a good indication that her system hadn`t gotten back into order again yet. I told him that too much would kill her a lot quicker than too little!

Then i get this one, again within 20 hours of her leaving here:



> Hi Amanda,
> 
> Well i havent got any critical care formula at the moment because of it being sunday yesterday not many places open but i will get some, so far i have just been giving her calcium often for her bones, i would say she as had atleast half a pint of water plus alot of food so far so she shouldnt be dehydrating now. Very glad to hear she asnt got internal parasites because thats what ive been thinking ever since i brought her back. I will keep you updated about her, thanks for everything


At least HALF A PINT, and a lot of food... in less than 24 hours??? Is it just me or is that seriously overdoing it in a beardie who hasn`t eaten for a good few weeks??? I basically told him to leave her alone and give her nothing more for a few days. I warned him of the risk of a calcium overdose, plus the risk of sending her body into shock by forcefeeding her this amount.

This morning she was dead.

Now to be fair, i told him that if something did happen, if she did die within the next week or so, which was entirely unexpected but i was trying to be nice, then i would refund the money he paid, but i can`t help feeling that forcing her that amount in such a short time could only have contributed, if not caused her death. 
I have absolutely no objection to refunding the guy as promised if i`m wrong, but if he ignored my advice and took steps towards unintentionally causing the death of this girl, then where do i stand?

I`m trying to get her body back here to be sent for a postmortem asap to try and sort this matter, but not sure if he`s going to comply. He is blaming me and saying she couldn`t have died from something he`d done because he`s worked so hard to keep her alive........ She certainly wasn`t at deaths door when i sold her...far from it...

I am really so angry at the moment, at myself for my obvious bad judgement in people and letting her go to him, and at him for doing what he`s done:bash:


Sorry its so long, but i really need some opinions on the impact that forcefeeding that amount would have on an already weak BD....am i wrong???


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## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

No you are not wrong, do not give a re-fund because the person was irresponsible in taking her if he/she didnt know how to look after a beardie in that condidtion.
Its sad to hear about this, but even more sad as to how she died. with the proper care this could have easily been avoided.



Phil : victory:


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Philcw said:


> No you are not wrong, do not give a re-fund because the person was irresponsible in taking her if he/she didnt know how to look after a beardie in that condidtion.
> Its sad to hear about this, but even more sad as to how she died. with the proper care this could have easily been avoided.
> 
> 
> ...


I just feel so bad, he really gave me the impression he knew what he was doing, she was a beautiful girl and genuinely thought i was placing her in more experienced hands.


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## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

Its not your fault if he came across as knowing what he was doing, if he did not know for sure that he could take care of it, then he shouldnt of done it.
Its a shame we didnt come across your beardie because we would have put her with the rescued reps to bring her back to good health.
Is the person you sold it to a member of this forum?



Phil : victory:


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## ev2277 (Jan 28, 2008)

that is awful.. made me feel so sad I got goosebumps... poor little thing


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

they would not see a penny back from me if I was in your position, in fact they would probably get a visit and a slap.

judging from what they have written they have zero experience of this kind of situation, and yes their actions definately could/would kill a weak dragon.

Unfortunately looks like you've been taken by a muppet who wanted something because it was cheap...


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## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

Mason said:


> they would not see a penny back from me if I was in your position, in fact they would probably get a visit and a slap.
> 
> judging from what they have written they have zero experience of this kind of situation, and yes their actions definately could/would kill a weak dragon.
> 
> Unfortunately looks like you've been taken by a muppet who wanted something because it was cheap...


Ding! correct...



Phil : victory:


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## Jibber10 (Feb 6, 2007)

Im really sorry to hear about the beardie and all your troubles.

Its only natural to be angry at yourself, i found myself in a very similar situation many years ago and blamed myself initially, but ultimatly the blame lies with the guy that took her. Trying to forcefeed her for a start sounds to me like a bad idea but forcefeeding the quantity that he did borders on insanity! As Philcw has already said, her condition would have improved with proper care and all this could have been avoided. 

I would continue to request the body back but wouldnt be bothered about the money at all. If the guy is such a **** that all he can think of is money then **** him.

Excuse the language guys.


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## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

:lol2: Well said!


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## Catherine896 (Jul 27, 2007)

Aww that is terrible. Im so sorry 
You cant blame yourself though.

I wouldnt refund the bloke either, atleast half a pint is a joke! What an a$$!


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## ukgeckos (Apr 11, 2007)

There is a disease that can be confused with brumation where I believe parasites in the gut (correct me if im wrong) affect their food intake and so they seem to be brumating. I have a post mortem of on of our rankins which we bought from a well know dealer and which was unfortunately carrying these. It happens over a long time where they slow down and begin to 'brumate' as we like to believe. But there actually slowly dieing. 
It is all to often seen as brumation as all the signs are there until its too late. people blame the lack of eating and sleeping on brumation but even when force fed, if you dont catch it in time then even antibiotics dont work.

Im not saying this is whats happening here but it looks similar to what happened with ours esp with the lack of digesting food.
I will search for the correct term and diagnosis of this!


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

bloody hell, i wouldnt refund him, for definate.. but thats not the issue really, its teh fact the poor beardie died. awful just awful.

sorry for your loss..

R.I.P 
lil one.


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

My lastest reply from him after requesting the body back and refusing to sell him my male dragon:



> Hi Amanda,
> 
> You will be keeping the male anyway now that you have ecused me of the cause of her death, im thinking of just re-burying her as you dont deserve the waste of petrol and time for the cheak you have blaming me after all i did for her not to mention the £50 you said you would refund which you wont, you are full of it. You was fine with the male coming to me before i brought this subject so dont feed me with bullsh*t.


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## macca 59 (Oct 10, 2007)

dont refund the :censor: and dont blame yourself


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

The money doesn`t really come into it to be honest, the offer for a refund has never been withdrawn, i`m just asking for a postmortem to be done first and then will refund him afterwards if the results show that he is not to blame. 
I just hate the thought of him doing what he did to that poor little girl and then blaming me for what has happened. :sad:


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

dont blame yourself you did what you thought was right 


spirit975 said:


> The money doesn`t really come into it to be honest, the offer for a refund has never been withdrawn, i`m just asking for a postmortem to be done first and then will refund him afterwards if the results show that he is not to blame.
> I just hate the thought of him doing what he did to that poor little girl and then blaming me for what has happened. :sad:


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## fairee (Dec 30, 2007)

whoever that guy is i'd like to give him a smack :bash:


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

fairee said:


> whoever that guy is i'd like to give him a smack :bash:


Glad i`m not the only one then, its reassuring to see that so many people agree that forcefeeding a sick BD to that extent would cause harm.
He is denying any responsibility and saying he was doing right.:bash:


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## snowyj99 (Feb 28, 2008)

Sorry about what has happened! 

Definately don't blame yourself! you explained everything to him!! You said she was on the up! So that suggests it was his fault that she went down hill!! And He lead you to believe that he knew what he was doing! 

Thats not your fault!! Its the :censor: who took her!!

Dont take S**t off of him! 

Take care and DON'T BLAME YOURSELF!


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## macca 59 (Oct 10, 2007)

Join the queue! :censor::censor::censor:


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

And another one just arrived....
sorry folks, i`m just so peed off at the moment



> There you go again ecusing me and you wonder why im being rude...How would you feel if i ecused you of putting her in that state in the first place huh? Maybe i should report you to the RSPCA and then see whos looking after their pets properly yea??


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

thats awful but what matters here is NOT whos fault it was surely... its the cause of death and WHY she was sick in the first place and what finally killed her.. its obvious she was acting odly before she went.. maybe after al it wasnt even brumation.. without a trip to the vets prior to the beardie leaving there may NEVER be any way of knowing now... thats unless he releases her body to you...


so the ONLY way that blame can be laid at one or other door or noones door is a post mortem..

thats the only and simple solution 

I hope for everyone involved a conclusion can be found.. its awful wondering whether it was really brumation or maybe something else that could have been treated..

how sad..
I hope you get a satisfactory conclusion mandy.. you must be worried that maybe she should have gone elsewhere or even to a vets .. bloody shame.. and sad to boot


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## fairee (Dec 30, 2007)

spirit975 said:


> And another one just arrived....
> sorry folks, i`m just so peed off at the moment
> 
> "Quote:
> There you go again ecusing me and you wonder why im being rude...How would you feel if i ecused you of putting her in that state in the first place huh? Maybe i should report you to the RSPCA and then see whos looking after their pets properly yea??"



The cheek of that! 
Don't listen to him, he's an idiot. It's not your fault at all, don't blame yourself!


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## macca 59 (Oct 10, 2007)

Anyone with any common sense, would know that you DO NOT constantly force feed a poorly animal, there is no way that it could digest such vast amounts of food and liquid in such a short space of time. would like to force the equivalent down his throat! and see the result!
If he has any conscience and is a true animal lover, he would return the little one's body so that a post mortem could be carried out. If it did turn out to be another cause of death, we would apologise, but if it was his fault :censor::censor::censor::censor: :bash:


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## macca 59 (Oct 10, 2007)

To the guy in question, instead of having a go at Spirit, why not come on here and defend yourself, after all you feel that you have done nothing wrong! Instead of sending Spirit pm's, don't you think she is going through enough grief at the moment, she thought she had given her a new start in life with someone who said they knew what they were doing, which is blatantly obvious, you didn't. Even after she told you what was the best way for her to recover.


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## RedGex (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi sorry to here about the beardie, one suggestion - im guessing you have another beardie?? Tell the guy you need the body back as a matter of urgency for the pm to make sure its nothing your other beardie could get. Whether it is or not, no self respecting person would deny you that, if it means putting another beardie at risk.....??


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

sparkle said:


> thats awful but what matters here is NOT whos fault it was surely... its the cause of death and WHY she was sick in the first place and what finally killed her.. its obvious she was acting odly before she went.. maybe after al it wasnt even brumation.. without a trip to the vets prior to the beardie leaving there may NEVER be any way of knowing now... thats unless he releases her body to you...
> 
> 
> so the ONLY way that blame can be laid at one or other door or noones door is a post mortem..
> ...


Indeed, which is why i would like to have the body back for postmortem, which he is now refusing. I have explained to him that it is in the best interests of my animals and his, including the male dragon that he put her directly in with, to know why she died. The only reason i gave him for not allowing him to have my male dragon was that i don`t want anything to leave this house until we get a result on the PM. He was the one who took it as an accusation.
To be honest she was doing quite well here and was, i feel, slowly improving on the one pink a week and bathing routine. I`m not saying for definite that it was his forcefeeding that killed her, but it without a doubt wouldn`t have helped much.


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## Malky (Feb 24, 2008)

I wouldn't. Full stop. That's awful that it died, and half a pint?!


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## Anna_r (May 27, 2007)

the amount of water will almost definately played a part in her death. dont blame yourself, not your fault at all. 
They are probably hesitating in bringing the body back because they dont want to admit they did wrong. im not saying what they did was intentional but some people :censor: me off, they should have read up first!! :bash:
again though not your fault at all, dont blame yourself hun


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## Anna_r (May 27, 2007)

oh and definately dont refund them, without having a post mortem done.


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## athy59 (Jan 30, 2008)

Let him report you to the R.S.P.C.A. and see who backs down 1st. 
Reason why i say this is because you gave him all the instruction and care sheet and he took her knowing she was poorly. Dont beat yourself up about and certainly do not refund. If R.S.P.C.A is involved and they want the body, i bet your bottom dollar he is the cause of her death. 
Reason why i say this as well, i used to be a foster mum to dogs ect from the R.S.P.C.A and lot of them were deyhdration. You give water little and often. You build them up gently you cannot rush a bodies metabolism, more so a lizzard, as its not as fast as a warm blooded animal. Force Feeding and that amount of food, so bloody quick after brummi, would of IMHO was the contributing factor of her death. I am no expert but know enough from what i read he fed and watered her to death. 
To be honest flower, he as no leg to stand on. 
Sending hugs over to you. 
Let him call R.S P.C.A. , i bet you find he`s in the wrong not you.


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## Camuk (Mar 4, 2008)

Sorry to ask the obvious but our female anole is laying, and having read this I worried! How do you force feed it. We are offering food and spraying the area (I Know totally diffrent lizard) but if she says no we leave it 12 hours and try later! Is that cruel?


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## macca 59 (Oct 10, 2007)

For the people that know you and of you on here, they know that you are a caring and responsible animal owner, unfortunately it is harder to tell with humans sometimes, if they are what they seem. if i was him i would be more concerned with the possibility of, you printing out the pm's and showing them to the rspca,(after all, he has threatened to call them himself and as you have nothing to worry about) as to the irresponsible way he cared for her, everyone here knows that you care for your animals with a passion, as most of us do, doubt there is anyone on this forum that would have done what he did in such a short space of time.

behind you all the way!!!


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## macca 59 (Oct 10, 2007)

*athy59*

athy59


totally agree!!!!


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## RasperAndy (Sep 21, 2007)

really sorry to hear about this situation, don't refund the money, and you are not in the wrong!!!!

hope everything gets sorted soon


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## Raeven (Mar 15, 2007)

Re homing any animal is always a risk, no matter how many home checks and questions
You ask it always comes down in the end to instinct and trust.
Sometimes, you make a mistake in judgement, if you are lucky the worst that happens is
The animal is returned. Unfortunately you have definitely had the worst case scenario.

The important thing is to learn from this experience. I understand your need to have a post mortem
But if this person will not release the body try not to get hung up on this. If the care the beardie received
After his rehome was not directly the cause of death, then certainly the force feeding and massive amounts of liquid administered by the new owner would have been a significant contributory factor. You
don’t need a post mortem to tell you this.

Do not blame yourself for this sad outcome, you made what you thought was a good decision at
The time. I would however ensure that this person is not offered any other animals as they have
Shown a blatant lack of not only reptile care but also common sense.



Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward. - Vernon Law


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Thankyou to everyone who has replied. The buyer of the beardie isn`t a member on here, but he is on the lookout for a new bearded dragon or two in the midlands area. 
If anyone has any for sale and wants to know the name of this person so as to avoid him, or at least question his husbandry, feel free to pm me and i`ll let you know who it was.
I won`t mention his name in public for obvious reasons.

Make me feel better knowing that i`m not as to blame as i thought, but still feel sad for the girl. 
Sleep soundly girl. You`ve got nothing to suffer anymore.


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## mummybear (Nov 5, 2007)

Just got home after working 13hrs and read this sad tale, don't blame yourself at all I know it's hard and you are a good person who was obviously taken in by someone not as good as yourself.

RIP the little lady


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## Kimmy173 (Aug 2, 2007)

So sorry to hear about all this. RIP lil one

It's been said already by most if not all members that the amount of liquid alone he put into her would have caused serious problems, if he got it all in the stomach (which a high possibility is he could have gotten some in her lungs depending on how he was "force feeding" her) it would be too much to work through, brumating or not. 

You aren't to blame in the slightest and as far as I can see from what you've shared you were there to help and guide even after she'd left your care.


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## lee1980 (Feb 11, 2008)

thats a terrible story mate, defo not your fault, i would want the poor little thing back to take to the vet and find out what actually happened? them people seem like they new :censor: all about bd's


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## daisyleo (Nov 23, 2006)

Perhaps a quick visit to his house by a few of our larger male forum members might make him think twice of buying more :bash:

God how annoying, I have a 'poorly' beardie girl and I could never let her go for this reason, there are so many bum hole people around you never know who is the biggest idiot, they come across so convincing at the time!!!!

Sorry to hear of your position but I certainly wouldn't be giving him anything back apart from a punch in the face!!!!

(I don't agree with violence kids, it's not big and it's not clever :bash: lol)


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Yeah he has said he`ll send his dad over to sort things out......i mean how bad is that! Sending threats to a pregnant single mother! What scum!
i`m not scared lol. i`ll just have my dog ready!:whip:


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## celsbigbeard (Oct 23, 2007)

pm sent to you : victory:


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## mc 2ooze (Feb 17, 2008)

when i started reading this thread i got sad then realy angry and thought this guy needs a slap and guess what im in the midlands willin to trav and free of charge, just need his ad pm me,threaten a preagnant woman will he lets see how much water the c:censor:t can drink, im so sorry for your loss


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## macca 59 (Oct 10, 2007)

Looks like you better the kettle on Spirit! lol


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## macca 59 (Oct 10, 2007)

better put the kettle on spirit the last post by ang :blush:


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## Doogerie (Jul 6, 2007)

my god i don't think that evei i would be that bad a keeper thater are 2 things that you should always do befor gettinga pet. read a book and go on here. it is amazing howmuch i have lernt about Reps on here really.

that guy desers a good kicking.


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## forwantof (Feb 10, 2008)

I am so sorry to hear this story. It really wasnt your fault! I cant believe he is then saying these things to you!!!!!!!! Some people!! :bash:

Please dont blame yourself though, you thought she was going to a better place.

x


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## gtm (Jan 23, 2008)

Although I know nothing about Bearded Dragons I have dealt with seriously ill tortoises and this sounds like a classic case of inexperience. As you told him how to treat her and he ignored that advice I'd withhold the refund.


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## macca 59 (Oct 10, 2007)

pm sent


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

that much water for an animal with that body mass would in my mind be a cause of death. In people who are ill, too much water causes cells in the brain to swell up and fitting followed by coma/death. Also i would imagine this would cause water getting into the lungs, too much water in the digestive tract which would weaken her further because the body would not be able to absorb all the water. Half a pint in such a short time would be a likely cause of death to my mind. I'm sorry you are having to deal with this, and for your loss. Do not refund.


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## Hobgoblin (Apr 13, 2007)

So sad, sorry to hear about that mate.....


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## lismae (Feb 20, 2008)

Hi Mand
I can not believe that this man would threaten a pregnant lady, absolutely shocking, i think this speaks volumes about this mans personality. I know because i bought my lovely girl from you a few weeks back, what a passionate,caring reptile keeper you are, and anyone else who visited your reptiles would see this. Keep your chin up you did your very best to find her a good knowledgeable home but this man deceived you about his ability - not your fault!


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

gosh what a sad story.
Might just be my interpretation but by the instructions you said you gave he really shouldnt have done ANYTHING with the dragon for the entire time it took him to kill it... LEAVE NEW ARRIVALS ALONE.

Has anything else come up in the past couple days? are you requiring assistance on anything at this time?


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## ferretlad (Mar 6, 2008)

I would not refund his money, If that guy thought anyting of the B.D in the first place..he would not ask for a refund out of respect and love for the deceased B.D. And if you feel he ignored all the advice you gave him and caused her death by over feeding thats definitely a reason not to refund. The saddest thing is.. that now he is the rightful owner of the B.D he does not have to hand over the B.D for a post mortum if dont wish to.
You will have to tread with caution in dealing with him to get her back.
I hope things turn out good for you, and best of luck in how you go about this very sad matter.


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Thanks again to everyone who has PMed me, its nice to know so many others feel like i do about it.

Just to update i never did get her body back to do a post mortem, he never got back in contact with me and wouldn`t reply to my emails.

No refund has been, or will be given for this one.

Its just a shame it ended for this poor girl the way it did without 100% certainty on what her problem was. :sad:


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## sarah1207 (Dec 17, 2007)

im so sorry for ur lose, some people make me so mad

i hope everything is ok and he leaves you alone, good luck in future and keep ya chin up, u did nothing wrong here


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Well the git went ahead and reported me to the RSPCA!
Here`s a bit about my visit!

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/general-herp-chat/105793-my-rspca-visit-bearded-dragon.html


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## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

I cant believe how inconsiderate people can be!!!

So sorry for your loss

R.I.P lil dragon


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

spirit975 said:


> Well the git went ahead and reported me to the RSPCA!
> Here`s a bit about my visit!
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/general-herp-chat/105793-my-rspca-visit-bearded-dragon.html


will now read that... why would he report you when he clearly is the one who caused it?


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## Iliria (Jan 19, 2007)

some people are complete ... grrrrr

r.i.p little dragon


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

What an idiot, don't refund him, & don't blame yourself!

..Oh, & tell him to learn how to spell.


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