# for sammibes to diss my lhasa n oldtyme



## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

as above MOD please dont lock sorry any other who dont like want i doing to the breed please comment or if like comment


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Make your mind up, it wasn't your lhasa yesterday lol.


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> Make your mind up, it wasn't your lhasa yesterday lol.


when did i say i didnt owner a lhasa


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

love the bulldogs,hold no opinions on lhasa's.I would have loved to have the white faced wrinkley pup.Good job she was homed as 5 dogs in a small house is enough.


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

What did i miss ?


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

sarahc said:


> love the bulldogs,hold no opinions on lhasa's.I would have loved to have the white faced wrinkley pup.Good job she was homed as 5 dogs in a small house is enough.


she staying with me so you see lots of photo of her


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

Tds79 said:


> What did i miss ?


 Originally Posted by *sammibee*  
_Learn to spell - and dont start *again* with my dogs...



Im glad its your last post - To be honest -
Granted, Im thankful of the blue-eye information you gave - as that was the reason for the post in the first place...

- but the rest of the Accusations (which I believe they were) were unnecessary, and slating my dogs - even to the point of threatening me with testing etc etc... was uncalled for and uncouth.

I believe entirely what the other posters have put - Staffies come in all shapes and sizes nowdays... Mine just happened to have a blue eye... Shes 8weeks old... The first poster said his dogs blue eye dissapeared... so where all this came from I do not know!!!
As ws posted by another member - This thread *DID *turn into another "your staffy is a pit-bull" thread.
And there were a few questions you managed to evade with regards to your dogs... Which I dunno... seemed a bit suspicious maybe?

Either way - I love my dogs - and Im sure you love yours. 

Thanks again to all =) :notworthy:_


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

Cheers just found the thread


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

oldtyme said:


> she staying with me so you see lots of photo of her


I will be really interested to see how she turns out,look forward to those pics.


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

Hun your dogs are brill I love the pics of them have no opinion on the Lhasa but the bulls are gorgeous and I am still coming to your house on my broomstickk to pinch them lol


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

sammy1969 said:


> Hun your dogs are brill I love the pics of them have no opinion on the Lhasa but the bulls are gorgeous and I am still coming to your house on my broomstickk to pinch them lol


 
Can you pick me up on the way please :lol2:


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

sammy1969 said:


> Hun your dogs are brill I love the pics of them have no opinion on the Lhasa but the bulls are gorgeous and I am still coming to your house on my broomstickk to pinch them lol


you have to let me know when you as run out of biscuits :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

No cant let oyu know when coz you wil hide them lol and I wont get them and yes Tds79 I will collect you on the way


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

sammy1969 said:


> No cant let oyu know when coz you wil hide them lol and I wont get them and yes Tds79 I will collect you on the way


 :2thumb: ...I will wear my coat with big pockets...sure they are puppy sized :lol2:


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

Cool i would sew a couple of extra ones in my cloak lol so we have more than enough pockets.


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

I will even bring some biccies and crimbo cake


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

And I will make sure I have a pocket full of puppy treats lol and maybe a small tipple to keep us warm lol


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

sammy1969 said:


> And I will make sure I have a pocket full of puppy treats lol and maybe a small tipple to keep us warm lol


pmsl:roll2::roll2::roll2::roll2::roll2::roll2:


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

I like to keep you laughing Neil as you know form my previous posts lol


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

sammy1969 said:


> And I will make sure I have a pocket full of puppy treats lol and maybe a small tipple to keep us warm lol


 
Oooooo tipple sounds good


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

Lol nothing beats a good tipple to warm the cockles of your heart on these cold winter nights


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

Too right...although not too much of a tipple...dont wanna fall off the broomstick


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

Oh moderation is needed lol last time I had a bit of a large tipple I ended up upside down on the broomstick clinging on with my thighs lol , not the best position to be in over roof tops lol


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

No Definitly not !!!!! 

All the biccies and dog treats will fall out our pockets ! lol


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

I know but worse still was my hair got tangled round a tv aerial was not pretty at all and i ended up wrapped round the chimney pot my poor cat was not happy he ended up in the middle of it and the look on his face said mum ffs dont do that again the tuna has fallen out of your pocket lmao


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

sammy1969 said:


> I know but worse still was my hair got tangled round a tv aerial was not pretty at all and i ended up wrapped round the chimney pot my poor cat was not happy he ended up in the middle of it and the look on his face said mum ffs dont do that again the tuna has fallen out of your pocket lmao


pmsl Dont think pups would be too impressed ether !! 
Cant be doing with getting wrapped round a chimney pot...people might think santa has come early lol


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

Thats so true and I dont want those little sweeties ending up round a chimney pot lol so will only have a little tipple lol


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

No cant lose the puppies ..... one lil shot each should be safe


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

Yep I agree and then maybe keep a spare incase we get too cold on the way back lol


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

Maybe 2.............you never know with this weather how long trip back may take :2thumb:


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

This is true and alhtough down here the temp is around minus 2 i do bleeive up where Neil is its alot colder so we may need an extra one or two just to keep the cold at bay lol oh and a hot water bottle for each puppy to keep them warm on the journey home and a sat nav so we dont get lost lol.


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

ooooo sat nav I have  and heat packs !! 
Snow has gone here just bit chilly.


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

You are lucky it arrived here yesterday and hit 8" in a few hours snowed again for a bit today just hoping it goes just as quickly as i am in a wheelchair and this snow means i am house bound basically hence why I have the broomstick lol


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

We had about an inch last weekend and few cms in the week but nothing major, seems like everywhere around us has had it bad but it keeps missing us. Im house bound so doesnt bother me lol bit rubbish for my OH though. 
Maybe I shud invest in a broomstick !!


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

They cetainly are useful lol i mean they take you from a to b and when not needed for a journey they come in handy for sweeping floors, mine also makes an excellent toy for my cats as it is a traditional hazel broomstick and it makes an interesting conversation piece with the neighbours lol


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

lol sounds fun my neighbours already think im nuts so broomstick would def turn some heads...and sure the cats would love it !


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

Are "old thyme bulldogs" a KC recognised breed?

Love Lhasas, a friend of mine breeds those


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## MIMousery (Sep 14, 2010)

I assmume they aren't considering they're just crosses of bull breeds bred by bulldog enthusiasts who want to make better, healthier bulldogs.....

This is as far as I can gather anyway


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

MIMousery said:


> I assmume they aren't considering they're just crosses of bull breeds bred by bulldog enthusiasts who want to make better, healthier bulldogs.....
> 
> This is as far as I can gather anyway


Thats what I thought, but the OP was telling the staffie owner off for not having KC reg dogs so i was a bit lost with that :blush:


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Myjb23 said:


> Thats what I thought, but the OP was telling the staffie owner off for not having KC reg dogs so i was a bit lost with that :blush:


I think what Neil was saying was that the other breeder should not say her/his dogs are 'pedigree' as in 'to the staffordshire bull terrier standard' if they cannot produce kc registration, or DNA tests, to prove this.
He does not say his dogs are a KC recognised breed, nor does he say they yet have a standard whether recognised or not, but he does give a 'family history' and they are registered with the pet registry.

I'm more than aware this is not really worth the paper it's written on either, unless you of course trust the breeders word that the dogs on the said 'family history' are in fact true....but then that goes for all Kc registered dogs as well doesnt' it..it's all down to trusting who you get your dog from.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

Im sure he doesnt, i didnt say anything about how he advertises his dogs :2thumb:

Parentage is very easy to prove with a simple blood test, and many breeders are now getting their dogs DNA profiled and kept on record by the KC. 

I dont know about those staffies, they didnt look like pits or lab crosses to me, they just looked like poorly bred staffies (sorry to their owner, they are lovely!) who possibly had a bit of something mixed in a few gens ago. I certainly dont think its fair to suggest that someones dogs might be pits though, as we know how heavy handed the police are being with seizing dogs and destroying them as quickly as possible. I'd hate to see someones pets taken away and pts because of a post on a forum, and afterall, who knows who monitors these places!! The only way to prove the parentage of the pup is by DNA testing, but i dont think the owner was particularly bothered. 

As to whether they should advertise those dogs as pure staffies... well, firstly, the person wasnt :lol2: They were merely asking a question about a pup. And if someone IS advertising a litter, if they bought the parents being told they were staffies, if they LOOK like staffies and have no paperwork to prove otherwise, what else are they going to advertise them as?? :whistling2: I dont think there was any ill-intent on the part of the staffy owner, she was just asking an innocent question I think. And im sure she had no intention of "dissing" anyone elses dogs so this seems a bit petty really....


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

Tds79 said:


> lol sounds fun my neighbours already think im nuts so broomstick would def turn some heads...and sure the cats would love it !


The other thing is comes in handy at halloween too as trhe kids love it when i go to the door with mine and fly up into the air lmao sorry will behave now


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

As I say the way I read his posts it looked like he was just saying that the other breeder should not say the dogs are pedigree if they are not.
I know parentage can proven with blood tests or DNA but only a few breeders, considering how many people breed dogs that is, actually do this and usually they are the breeders who show or export their puppies.
I couldn't however see where she in fact dissed his dogs at all either.
It just goes to show how diffeently people see what is typed on forums though doesn't it?
It can cause so much trouble and offence it's unbelievable.

I must say the puppy did look like a cross to me, of what I have no idea, not just a badly bred staff. Pups can change though and she may indeed look like a purebred staff as she matures.
I had a staff x here, I knew she was a x, that everyone thought was a purebred staff so it's easy to make the mistake if you are not experienced with the breed.

Maybe this is what the original breeder has done...bought dogs taking the sellers word as gospel!
Therefore she will think here pups are staffs.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

I thought the bitch looked stafford and the dog looked stafford type/cross.Either way the pup was lovely and whatever the genetics I wouldn't have said no if I was in a position to have another dog.I would happily take on a stafford type but if I was expecting to pay a few hundred pounds for a stafford I would want a pedigree,k.c health tested one from a reputable breeder.Stafford type I would expect to pay less ,wouldn't be expecting the health tests etc etc but would love it just the same.You pays your money and takes your pick so to speak.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Oldtyme, I've got a question about this part of your post:



> your dog is not a pure english staff
> 1) they dont have red/chocolate noses,the chocolate and red noses are only found in staffy types and pbt types
> ....
> 3)they dont have that colour eyes
> ...


As far as I was aware, red-coloured dogs *do* tend to have liver-coloured noses (and lighter-coloured eyes) because they're unable to produce the black eumelanin in order to have a black nose - they are red-coated because they produce red/brown phaeomelanin. Likewise, blue-coloured dogs tend to have slate-grey noses rather than black noses, because "hair coat colour" is tied to "skin colour".

And the Kennel Club standard for Staffordshire Bull Terriers does not specifically disqualify or even specify nose colour, so there's no specific reason a staffie HAS to have a black nose. 

The blue wall eye can appear as a simple point mutation instead of an intentional cross breed that's showing up a recessive trait, though... it's been known to happen in lines of purebred dogs. And dogs with lots of white "patching" can occasionally wind up with a white "patch" in the eye, too - creating that blue eye.

Granted, Sammibee's adult dogs have been stated not to be KC registered (which, for me, would have been reason enough not to breed them - if they're not KC registered, why weren't they?) so there isn't a definite guarantee that there isn't something in the woodpile that more regularly has blue eyes or particolour eyes.


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

Myjb23 said:


> I dont know about those staffies, they didnt look like pits or lab crosses to me, they just looked like poorly bred staffies (sorry to their owner, they are lovely!) who possibly had a bit of something mixed in a few gens ago. *I certainly dont think its fair to suggest that someones dogs might be pits though, as we know how heavy handed the police are being with seizing dogs and destroying them as quickly as possible. I'd hate to see someones pets taken away and pts because of a post on a forum*, and afterall, who knows who monitors these places!! The only way to prove the parentage of the pup is by DNA testing, but i dont think the owner was particularly bothered.
> 
> As to whether they should advertise those dogs as pure staffies... well, firstly, the person wasnt :lol2: They were merely asking a question about a pup. And if someone IS advertising a litter, if they bought the parents being told they were staffies, if they LOOK like staffies and have no paperwork to prove otherwise, what else are they going to advertise them as?? :whistling2: I dont think there was any ill-intent on the part of the staffy owner, she was just asking an innocent question I think. And im sure she had no intention of "dissing" anyone elses dogs so this seems a bit petty really....


I do have to say that I dont think He was suggesting they were pits, and I do think the op kept getting caught up with that idea ( I could be wrong) I think he was trying to point out that they are not pure staffy and I can 100% say I would not say they are pure staffie, the mum was def more than the dad, but the dad is no way a pure staff. 
The thing people need to realise with the whole "type" thing is that people with even pure registered staffs have had their dogs seized and destroyed. I wont go into the whole type thing, but I do know that her male dog from the pics had one or two of the things they look for, and I think Neil was trying to point that out and point out the fact that unless she 100% knows (IE dna, kc papers etc) that her 2 dogs are staffs then she should not advertise the pups as such. 
I know I would be very unhappy if I went to buy a pure staffie pup and then saw the parents and realised they wasnt and sadly this is where alot of the "type" dogs are coming from. 
Staffie wise I do belive that if you do not know the bloodlines etc that your dogs have come from then you shouldnt breed (personally I think anyone breeding staffies at the moment esp a vet nurse is wrong, but thats personal opionion), otherwise you do run the risk of your puppies growing into "types" and possibly being seized. 



sammy1969 said:


> The other thing is comes in handy at halloween too as trhe kids love it when i go to the door with mine and fly up into the air lmao sorry will behave now


pmsl Oh i LOVE that idea !!!!


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

surely if you want a well bred good example of a pure bred dog you save up and buy from a decent breeder?
and if you buy a pup for a hundred-ish quid do you really expect to get a crufts qualifier rather than a nice family pet?
i always thought you get what you pay for.


it is deeply amusing to me that someone with puppies made up of bitsathis and bitsathat can give someone else with puppies to find homes for grief about kc paperwork and health testing when their own dogs are made up of breeds with well known health issues like hip and elbow dysplasia, surely when their own come with all this background they can be judgemental about others.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

What got me about the thread was suggesting her dogs were pitbull type based on their appearance. What no-one said was that so many different crosses look like the definition of "pitbull types", and they're just as likely to be seized, dna or not. Type is an appearance not a breed. There have been dane x and lab x that have been seized as "type" too, so even if they were pedigree staffies WITH papers, they could still be seized.

TBH judging someone because of the appearance of one of her pups, when you're breeding dogs that could be seized too, is a bit hypocritical.

Not saying either is a bad or good breeder, here, just saying there's not much difference.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Sometimes I think Neils posts can be misunderstood, as he says he does suffer with dyslexia, he finds it difficult to put what he actually means into the written word.
I'm not making excuses and as someone else said I dont' think Neil intended to say the breeders dogs were in fact PBT's or offend her. It just came across in that way unfortunately.

Piggly,

I do find it a little ironic as you say for someone who is breeding oldtymes to speak of KC reg and testing etc but Neil is afterall trying to better his lines and, form what he says, to actually produce a healthier bulldog type pet.
Whether he is succeeding at he moment I have idea s I dont' what health issues his dogs have had......I can't think of having seen any major issues with them to be honest.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> What got me about the thread was suggesting her dogs were pitbull type based on their appearance. What no-one said was that so many different crosses look like the definition of "pitbull types", and they're just as likely to be seized, dna or not. Type is an appearance not a breed. There have been dane x and lab x that have been seized as "type" too, so even if they were pedigree staffies WITH papers, they could still be seized.
> 
> TBH judging someone because of the appearance of one of her pups, when you're breeding dogs that could be seized too, is a bit hypocritical.
> 
> Not saying either is a bad or good breeder, here, just saying there's not much difference.


Having seen Neils dogs I can safely say they do not look like PBT type at all.
They are starting to look like the old bulldogs I used to see 40 years ago.
People who have not/did not see these may thinkk his dogs look like 'type'. but if they had seen those 'old time' bulldogs that I loved as a child they would understand that they do not.

Having said that I have seen/heard of dogs that look nothing like 'Type' that have been seized over the years.


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

saxon said:


> Sometimes I think Neils posts can be misunderstood, as he says he does suffer with dyslexia, he finds it difficult to put what he actually means into the written word.
> 
> 
> I do find it a little ironic as you say for someone who is breeding oldtymes to speak of KC reg and testing etc but Neil is afterall trying to better his lines and, form what he says, to actually produce a healthier bulldog type pet.
> Whether he is succeeding at he moment I have idea s I dont' what health issues his dogs have had......I can't think of having seen any major issues with them to be honest.


:notworthy:


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

Myjb23 said:


> Thats what I thought, but the OP was telling the staffie owner off for not having KC reg dogs so i was a bit lost with that :blush:


if i could kc my bulldog they would be kc 

if you have a breed that can be kc and you want to breed your dog it should be kc n tested

i wouldnt say my lhasa was pure if didnt have the kc paper


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

saxon said:


> I think what Neil was saying was that the other breeder should not say her/his dogs are 'pedigree' as in 'to the staffordshire bull terrier standard' if they cannot produce kc registration, or DNA tests, to prove this.
> He does not say his dogs are a KC recognised breed, nor does he say they yet have a standard whether recognised or not, but he does give a 'family history' and they are registered with the pet registry.
> 
> I'm more than aware this is not really worth the paper it's written on either, unless you of course trust the breeders word that the dogs on the said 'family history' are in fact true....but then that goes for all Kc registered dogs as well doesnt' it..it's all down to trusting who you get your dog from.


thank you you get what i was trying to say


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

Myjb23 said:


> Im sure he doesnt, i didnt say anything about how he advertises his dogs :2thumb:
> 
> Parentage is very easy to prove with a simple blood test, and many breeders are now getting their dogs DNA profiled and kept on record by the KC.
> 
> ...


all i was trying to put across is that they have some other cross in their lines further back so to me theyre not pure staffs and they dont look like it

i never said they were pbts i said depending on how the pup grows it maybe considered a banned type by the authoritys,my olde tymes if bred incorrectly could be considered a banned type too

if you look she was advertising the pup as she put this pup is for sale if anyones interested

if i was advertising those pups i would advertise them as staffy types not pure staffs but thats just my opinion


if i was to advertise pups on here like that i would be took to the slaughter house,my thread would be locked within 10 minutes id be called a backyard breeder,irresponsible and many other words i cant post on here,saying im adding to the problems of rescue centres as the dogs are not kc registered or had proper tests and dont look very staffy

i made this thread as she i advoided questions about my dogs which i dont do im more than happy to answer anyones question and to let them come and look at my dogs


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

saxon said:


> As I say the way I read his posts it looked like he was just saying that the other breeder should not say the dogs are pedigree if they are not.
> I know parentage can proven with blood tests or DNA but only a few breeders, considering how many people breed dogs that is, actually do this and usually they are the breeders who show or export their puppies.
> I couldn't however see where she in fact dissed his dogs at all either.
> It just goes to show how diffeently people see what is typed on forums though doesn't it?
> ...


she didnt diss my dogs she said i dont answer questions about my dogs,as ive said many times im more than happy to let people come and see my dogs and will discuss at length about my dogs and see how well behaved they are


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

sarahc said:


> I thought the bitch looked stafford and the dog looked stafford type/cross.Either way the pup was lovely and whatever the genetics I wouldn't have said no if I was in a position to have another dog.I would happily take on a stafford type but if I was expecting to pay a few hundred pounds for a stafford I would want a pedigree,k.c health tested one from a reputable breeder.Stafford type I would expect to pay less ,wouldn't be expecting the health tests etc etc but would love it just the same.You pays your money and takes your pick so to speak.


so it wasnt just me that thought they werent pure but then again thats just our opinions


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

oldtyme said:


> she didnt diss my dogs she said i dont answer questions about my dogs,as ive said many times im more than happy to let people come and see my dogs and will discuss at length about my dogs and see how well behaved they are


 
I know you are Neil and I've seen your dogs.
They are well behaved and seem as healthy as any I've seen.


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> Oldtyme, I've got a question about this part of your post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thanx for all your information

the pup is white not red and i also stated on her thread that there was a cross somewhere back in the lines


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

Tds79 said:


> I do have to say that I dont think He was suggesting they were pits, and I do think the op kept getting caught up with that idea ( I could be wrong) I think he was trying to point out that they are not pure staffy and I can 100% say I would not say they are pure staffie, the mum was def more than the dad, but the dad is no way a pure staff.
> The thing people need to realise with the whole "type" thing is that people with even pure registered staffs have had their dogs seized and destroyed. I wont go into the whole type thing, but I do know that her male dog from the pics had one or two of the things they look for, and I think Neil was trying to point that out and point out the fact that unless she 100% knows (IE dna, kc papers etc) that her 2 dogs are staffs then she should not advertise the pups as such.
> I know I would be very unhappy if I went to buy a pure staffie pup and then saw the parents and realised they wasnt and sadly this is where alot of the "type" dogs are coming from.
> Staffie wise I do belive that if you do not know the bloodlines etc that your dogs have come from then you shouldnt breed (personally I think anyone breeding staffies at the moment esp a vet nurse is wrong, but thats personal opionion), otherwise you do run the risk of your puppies growing into "types" and possibly being seized.
> ...


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

pigglywiggly said:


> surely if you want a well bred good example of a pure bred dog you save up and buy from a decent breeder?
> and if you buy a pup for a hundred-ish quid do you really expect to get a crufts qualifier rather than a nice family pet?
> i always thought you get what you pay for.
> 
> ...


yes it will know my dog are cross breed but i dont say there pure 
and when i can kc i will kc


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> What got me about the thread was suggesting her dogs were pitbull type based on their appearance. What no-one said was that so many different crosses look like the definition of "pitbull types", and they're just as likely to be seized, dna or not. Type is an appearance not a breed. There have been dane x and lab x that have been seized as "type" too, so even if they were pedigree staffies WITH papers, they could still be seized.
> 
> TBH judging someone because of the appearance of one of her pups, when you're breeding dogs that could be seized too, is a bit hypocritical.
> 
> Not saying either is a bad or good breeder, here, just saying there's not much difference.


yes i do breed cross breeds but i started of with kc registered tested dogs and cross bred them to make them healthier,its not like i went out and just got 2 dogs and just bred them together please can you explain how my dogs could be seized,yes i can criticise the op of the other post my dogs are cross breeds and are tested and hers are supposed to be pure bred but not tested,i wasnt having a go at her i was just stating some facts and ive seen other owners of staffs on here get jumped on for alot less than what she posted


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

oldtyme said:


> if i could kc my bulldog they would be kc
> 
> if you have a breed that can be kc and you want to breed your dog it should be kc n tested
> 
> i wouldnt say my lhasa was pure if didnt have the kc paper



A dog can be purebred without papers, to say otherwise is just ridiculous.

What health testing do you do for your bulldogs?


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

oldtyme said:


> yes i do breed cross breeds but i started of with kc registered tested dogs and cross bred them to make them healthier,its not like i went out and just got 2 dogs and just bred them together please can you explain how my dogs could be seized,yes i can criticise the op of the other post my dogs are cross breeds and are tested and hers are supposed to be pure bred but not tested,i wasnt having a go at her i was just stating some facts and ive seen other owners of staffs on here get jumped on for alot less than what she posted


Crossing breeds does NOT produce healthier dogs, you are more likely to have the problems to both breeds crop up in future generations. I hate that such ridiculous statements are used as a gimick for people wanting to charge crazy prices for mongrels.

If you truely care about a breed you strive to make that healthier. Careful, educated breeding and making full use of available health tests. This is proven to have had a positive impact on the health of breeds as a whole, so much so that certain diseases are well on the way to being eradicated from certain breeds completely. It is helping no one to produce mongrels.

Sorry if that sounds rude, but its wrong to say you are breeding mongrels for health reasons because anyone who knows anything about breeding, health and genetics knows that it makes pups no more likely to be healthy.


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

Myjb23 said:


> A dog can be purebred without papers, to say otherwise is just ridiculous.
> 
> What health testing do you do for your bulldogs?


heart and eye test and as its a new breed they cant score for hips


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

Myjb23 said:


> Crossing breeds does NOT produce healthier dogs, you are more likely to have the problems to both breeds crop up in future generations. I hate that such ridiculous statements are used as a gimick for people wanting to charge crazy prices for mongrels.
> 
> If you truely care about a breed you strive to make that healthier. Careful, educated breeding and making full use of available health tests. This is proven to have had a positive impact on the health of breeds as a whole, so much so that certain diseases are well on the way to being eradicated from certain breeds completely. It is helping no one to produce mongrels.
> 
> Sorry if that sounds rude, but its wrong to say you are breeding mongrels for health reasons because anyone who knows anything about breeding, health and genetics knows that it makes pups no more likely to be healthy.


the kc bulldog has been destroyed by the breeders and the kennel club and theres no way you can make them healthier unless you start all over again,i do not breed my dogs for the money i breed them for myself and other enthusiasts that like what im doing,i breed the odd litter i dont breed all the time and no way do i make any money out of it,my wife thinks im crazy and i shouldve just bought a french bulldog with the money ive spent trying to create a healthier bulldog


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

That is a wild generalisation. There are many, many breeders producing fit, healthy bulldogs. 

You can have any dog, purebred or cross, hip scored. My friend had her mongrel done, she just put it on the KC activity register so it got a reg number.

Your dogs are a CROSSbreed, not a "new" breed. It takes an awful long time for new breeds to get KC recognition as a breed.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

bs and twoddle.

you can have any dog hip scored at the vets.

i had one of my bullmastiffs x-rayed when he had intermittant lameness and stiffness on a morning.

and the results were he had hip dysplasia on the one side, and he was offered a hip replacement at the specialists.

the results wernt sent off to be scored and recorded for the kc as he was never going to be bred from after we got the news.


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

Myjb23 said:


> That is a wild generalisation. There are many, many breeders producing fit, healthy bulldogs.
> 
> You can have any dog, purebred or cross, hip scored. My friend had her mongrel done, she just put it on the KC activity register so it got a reg number.
> 
> Your dogs are a CROSSbreed, not a "new" breed. It takes an awful long time for new breeds to get KC recognition as a breed.


my vet said due to it having 3 diff breeds in its lines they cant be hipscored theres no scores to check against,obviously my vet must be wrong would you like to become my new vet


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i was very careful where i got my bulldog from, and wouldnt hesitate to get another.
i went to a long establised breeder and i`ve got a very healthy, happy well adjusted baby who will be ten easter.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

oldtyme said:


> my vet said due to it having 3 diff breeds in its lines they cant be hipscored theres no scores to check against,obviously my vet must be wrong would you like to become my new vet


:lol: Maybe i should, i might be able to give you a clue!!

The one my friend had scored was a rescue with no known background at all. And like pigglywiggly said, if you're vet is any good they should at least be able to give you an idea of the approximate score..

But of course, xrays are EXPENSIVE!! Eat into the profits..


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

Myjb23 said:


> :lol: Maybe i should, i might be able to give you a clue!!
> 
> The one my friend had scored was a rescue with no known background at all. And like pigglywiggly said, if you're vet is any good they should at least be able to give you an idea of the approximate score..
> 
> But of course, xrays are EXPENSIVE!! Eat into the profits..


what profits


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

really? at £800 a pup?


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

pigglywiggly said:


> really? at £800 a pup?


sorry to disappoint i dont make any money and 99% go to pet homes at 550 

then dont sale all pup out of this litter i give 3pup for free


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

pigglywiggly said:


> really? at £800 a pup?



Quite.

Doing two of the cheapest health tests and obviously not showing any of your dogs to prove they are worthy of breeding (cant as they're not reg if anyones wondering), then at £800 a pup with only one litter a year you will be making a healthy profit. Its a lie to say otherwise..


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

oldtyme said:


> the pup is white not red and i also stated on her thread that there was a cross somewhere back in the lines


The pup's got a large red spot on one flank - it's a red dog, with high white spotting.

And the high white spotting pattern could in itself explain the "white" unpigmented eye.



oldtyme said:


> my vet said due to it having 3 diff breeds in its lines they cant be hipscored theres no scores to check against,obviously my vet must be wrong would you like to become my new vet


Yes, your vet is wrong in that respect.

The hip score is based on the actual shape of the hips, and there are a number of points in terms of shape, projections into the hip socket and so forth that are evaluated in a hip score.

hip score guide for owners
The BVA/KC Hip Dysplasia Scheme - The Kennel Club

Now, what they CAN'T tell you is how your dog compares to "other dogs of the same breed" or whether they're "breeding quality because of hip score".

But they can certainly tell you whether your dog is a 53:53 or a 0:0 or anything in between.


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

Off topic slightly here just something I noticed.....

I have lost count how many people have had ago at people on here for breeding staffies etc (rightly so I completly agree), yet the thread that Oldtyme was talking to the other op on not one person said anything and seem more for having a pop at oldtyme, I could be wrong but that is how it has come across.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

Tds79 said:


> Off topic slightly here just something I noticed.....
> 
> I have lost count how many people have had ago at people on here for breeding staffies etc (rightly so I completly agree), yet the thread that Oldtyme was talking to the other op on not one person said anything and seem more for having a pop at oldtyme, I could be wrong but that is how it has come across.


I didnt post on that thread because it was closed before i saw it, i have limited internet access, im on my phone at the moment. But this thread is of a completely different topic, he has actually invited people to discuss HIS dogs and his breeding. I would not have discussed his dogs on the other thread as it would have been off topic, however, i would have said what i said earlier on here about how it is wrong to insinuate someones dogs are pit type with nothing at all to back it up as i believe that was completely out of order.


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

Myjb23 said:


> Quite.
> 
> Doing two of the cheapest health tests and obviously not showing any of your dogs to prove they are worthy of breeding (cant as they're not reg if anyones wondering), then at £800 a pup with only one litter a year you will be making a healthy profit. Its a lie to say otherwise..



yes you can show the otb there is only 8 show a years 

the amount of 1000s of pounds ive spent trying 2 get my dogs to where theyre now

i do not make no money out of them,you're in a fantasy world if you think you can make money out of dogs and i rarely take £800 a pup and i dont breed every year,the average price for a decent olde tyme is £1000-£2500 im virtually giving my dogs away at £550 and my stipulations put alot of people off


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> The pup's got a large red spot on one flank - it's a red dog, with high white spotting.
> 
> And the high white spotting pattern could in itself explain the "white" unpigmented eye.
> 
> ...


thank for that i will be get my dogs hip score now


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

But your missing the point as has been pointed out Neil does have problems explaining things and I think he had a fair point in all honesty the OPs male dog does look slightly type and as for saying with nothing to back it up alot of the things they look for a dog to be classed as type you can notice from pictures and the OP was in the wrong for saying her staffies are pure when she had nothing to back it up at all, yes it could have been handled better im not saying it couldnt. 

It sounds as though the op has been given some false info my his vet with regards to hip scoring..........its not the first time its happened it wont be the last. As for much profit I 100% believe him when he says he probably donest get any or very little, my aunt has bred dogs for years and to be honest I dont know why she bothers has she earns nothing out of it and her pups go for £800-£1000 a pup.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

oldtyme said:


> yes you can show the otb there is only 8 show a years
> 
> the amount of 1000s of pounds ive spent trying 2 get my dogs to where theyre now
> 
> i do not make no money out of them,you're in a fantasy world if you think you can make money out of dogs and i rarely take £800 a pup and i dont breed every year,the average price for a decent olde tyme is £1000-£2500 im virtually giving my dogs away at £550 and my stipulations put alot of people off


Lol!! You have no need to tell me about breeding. I have owned and bred successful show and working dogs for quite a few years :lol:

And it is very easy to make money breeding dogs when you are cutting corners and saving money. Unfortunately i dont, we spent about £10k on general care and healthtesting the dogs this year, and another £10k (a bit more infact) on showing them to make sure we are only breeding the best. We have only made a couple of thousand ££s "profit" from pups so we have made a huge loss. But we're breeding our dogs to improve on each generation and dont cut corners in anyway.

550 a pup will still give you a profit, unless you have a single pup in a litter which i highly doubt...


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Of course there isn't just the costs of the litter to be considered when evaluating 'profit' the dogs are kept throughout their lives.
Vet fees, feeding and other expenses would be taken into account if it were a business being run for profit.

Do you make a profit when you breed your pugs and chi's, I have no idea if you've ever had a litter of chi's I'm just showing examples here, I'm sure you don't!

I would think the vet would have advised Neil that it was not a necessary act to have his dogs hips scored as they are not a recognised breed that requires scoring.
I'm sure now that people have told him they 'can' have their hips checked, if not scored, then he will do so.

Allthough Neil invited comments on his dogs and his breeding there is no need for some of the comments that have been made. Maybe it has just been the wording though?
He did not imply that the other breeders dogs were in fact PBT just that they looked to have type which has been said about other peoples dogs on many ocassions...how come it is ok for some and not others?

As another poster said had most people posted the thread about the blue eyed pup they would have been jumped on for breeding unregistered staffs to start with whether they were advertising the litter or not.

Can I also say that I know Neil does not sell his pups at the prices quoted and has let pups go to homes he is happy with rather than take money and just let them go to anyone with the cash.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

And i think your all mental!


=D


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Myjb23 said:


> And it is very easy to make money breeding dogs when you are cutting corners and saving money. ..


I'm afraid the only way to make money from breeding dogs would be to own many breeding bitches and breed as a puppy farm....Neil doesn't do this.

His dogs are fed a good diet including fresh meats etc and the get good veterinary care if required.

I would think it would be easier to make a profit, although I doubt any dog breeder at all makes a profit unless farm breeding, when breeding smaller breeds...yes they may have smaller litters but pugs, chi's and the like sell at a greater price than Neils oldtymes...and afterall what does it cost to feed a smaller breed dog?
I know there are the costs of showing, testing, veterinary care etc but if they can be taken into account for a show breeder why can such expenses not be taken into account for someone breeding for the reasons Neil is breeding?


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

Thats not true. Money can be made even with one bitch to breed from. A neighbour of mine wanted a new car so bred a litter from his staffy, and made enough profit to buy the car. Its the people who do it wrong who dont seem to have the expense of those of us who do it right.

Oldtyme may have the best intentions, but this thread has proved he is not clued up enough on breeding his own dogs to be criticising other people.

Any good breeder knows that vets are NOT the people to give advise on breeding, read any dog forum and you will see horror stories of vets giving stupid advice. The best people to ask is experienced breeders who have been there and bought the tshirt. I have 'mentors' in my breeds to advise me when starting out.

Re your coments about my pugs and chi's, yes, a lot of people sell them for silly money. I dont. My pug litter are priced at £900 a pup, which for kc reg pups of their quality and pedigree is VERY reasonable. I have bred 2 litters of those in 6 years, one of which i kept the entire litter. I also have a basenji which is certainly not a breed you have a litter from for profit lol! My mum breeds labs and has had 4 litters in about 15 years, and we have not had any chi pups, but hope to from our imported american champion boy. I personally only breed my dogs when im wanting another to show, i would never breed to supply a pet market or just for the sake of it.


saxon said:


> I'm afraid the only way to make money from breeding dogs would be to own many breeding bitches and breed as a puppy farm....Neil doesn't do this.
> 
> His dogs are fed a good diet including fresh meats etc and the get good veterinary care if required.
> 
> ...


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

saxon said:


> Having seen Neils dogs I can safely say they do not look like PBT type at all.
> They are starting to look like the old bulldogs I used to see 40 years ago.
> People who have not/did not see these may thinkk his dogs look like 'type'. but if they had seen those 'old time' bulldogs that I loved as a child they would understand that they do not.
> 
> Having said that I have seen/heard of dogs that look nothing like 'Type' that have been seized over the years.


That's the point though - it's not you or I doing the seizing, it's under educated policemen, who think a dane is type, or a bulldog is type, or a pedigree lab is type. Anyone breeding anything vaguely bullish is at risk in these stupid times, not saying I agree with it - just that it's true. We could have had Blu seized, he was a pedigree dane but you know how stupid these policefolk are! My point was anyone breeding these breeds is facing these risks, and bringing dogs into a world where there is a risk they could be seized. They dont have to BE pit type to be judged as it, as those doing the judging dont have a clue.



oldtyme said:


> yes i do breed cross breeds but i started of with kc registered tested dogs and cross bred them to make them healthier,its not like i went out and just got 2 dogs and just bred them together please can you explain how my dogs could be seized,yes i can criticise the op of the other post my dogs are cross breeds and are tested and hers are supposed to be pure bred but not tested,i wasnt having a go at her i was just stating some facts and ive seen other owners of staffs on here get jumped on for alot less than what she posted


Explained above. I dont agree with breeding staffs either, was just pointing out that to the uneducated police, your dogs are just as type as a pure staff. I've heard of bullmastiffs seized and they dont look anything like type to me!



Myjb23 said:


> Crossing breeds does NOT produce healthier dogs, you are more likely to have the problems to both breeds crop up in future generations. I hate that such ridiculous statements are used as a gimick for people wanting to charge crazy prices for mongrels.
> 
> If you truely care about a breed you strive to make that healthier. Careful, educated breeding and making full use of available health tests. This is proven to have had a positive impact on the health of breeds as a whole, so much so that certain diseases are well on the way to being eradicated from certain breeds completely. It is helping no one to produce mongrels.
> 
> Sorry if that sounds rude, but its wrong to say you are breeding mongrels for health reasons because anyone who knows anything about breeding, health and genetics knows that it makes pups no more likely to be healthy.


:no1:



Myjb23 said:


> That is a wild generalisation. There are many, many breeders producing fit, healthy bulldogs.
> 
> You can have any dog, purebred or cross, hip scored. My friend had her mongrel done, she just put it on the KC activity register so it got a reg number.
> 
> Your dogs are a CROSSbreed, not a "new" breed. It takes an awful long time for new breeds to get KC recognition as a breed.


:no1:



pigglywiggly said:


> bs and twoddle.
> 
> you can have any dog hip scored at the vets.
> 
> ...


 
:no1:



Myjb23 said:


> Quite.
> 
> Doing two of the cheapest health tests and obviously not showing any of your dogs to prove they are worthy of breeding (cant as they're not reg if anyones wondering), then at £800 a pup with only one litter a year you will be making a healthy profit. Its a lie to say otherwise..


Have to agree somewhat, although to be fair - for all we know there may be more costs involved, and he shouldnt have to explain himself. But I do see your point - but I've seen some folks selling them at £1000+ which is clearly only for profit. To be honest, I wouldn't buy a crossbreed at £550, bargain for it's type or not. You could get a pedigree animal for that and have the knowledge that its mum wasn't bred too young or too often.



Tds79 said:


> Off topic slightly here just something I noticed.....
> 
> I have lost count how many people have had ago at people on here for breeding staffies etc (rightly so I completly agree), yet the thread that Oldtyme was talking to the other op on not one person said anything and seem more for having a pop at oldtyme, I could be wrong but that is how it has come across.


I think different people read things different ways. What I saw was someone who rightly or wrongly had bred some dogs, being hounded (lol pun) by someone telling them that he KNEW they weren't pure and they were pitbull type. Somewhat hypocritically IMO.



Tds79 said:


> But your missing the point as has been pointed out Neil does have problems explaining things and I think he had a fair point in all honesty the OPs male dog does look slightly type and as for saying with nothing to back it up alot of the things they look for a dog to be classed as type you can notice from pictures and the OP was in the wrong for saying her staffies are pure when she had nothing to back it up at all, yes it could have been handled better im not saying it couldnt.
> 
> It sounds as though the op has been given some false info my his vet with regards to hip scoring..........its not the first time its happened it wont be the last. As for much profit I 100% believe him when he says he probably donest get any or very little, my aunt has bred dogs for years and to be honest I dont know why she bothers has she earns nothing out of it and her pups go for £800-£1000 a pup.


IMO saying a dog looks "type" and therefore cant be pure is silly. Pedigree staffies could be seen as "type" too, depending on the judge - makes no difference.

I think if I were breeding to better a "breed" (or crossbreed), I would KNOW myself what tests they needed. Blaming the vet just means it wasn't researched properly.


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

My aunt did it right and still didnt make that much if anything out of breeding she did it because she used to show etc and enjoyed doing it. 

I think money does depend on the breed and also the demand. 

Again I think you have mistaken how Neil ment some things on the other thread I dont think he was criticising the op, infact I think he gave her good advice for a question she asked and she came across as rude and rather know it all.


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

Myjb23 said:


> Thats not true. Money can be made even with one bitch to breed from. A neighbour of mine wanted a new car so bred a litter from his staffy, and made enough profit to buy the car. Its the people who do it wrong who dont seem to have the expense of those of us who do it right.
> 
> Oldtyme may have the best intentions, but this thread has proved he is not clued up enough on breeding his own dogs to be criticising other people.
> 
> ...


if i ask experienced breeders about breeding otb i will be told not to breed them and get a kc dog 

i only had this litter to improve on what i got and keep apup back


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

oldtyme said:


> if i ask experienced breeders about breeding otb i will be told not to breed them and get a kc dog
> 
> i only had this litter to improve on what i got and keep apup back


Quite possibly.

Though, if you are calling them a 'new breed' and there are shows being held for them, presumably there are others out there breeding these dogs to try to get them recognised breed status who could advise you more accturately on health testing and stuff.

And to be honest, if someone approached me with a sound, sensible argument for trying to create this breed and asked for advice on how to best go about it i would try to help them or point them in the right direction for people who can. Its not crossbreeding i have a problem with, its just when it is done for no reason and with no thought to the future of the dogs. I think you do care about the health and quality of your dogs and hopefully you will take on board the comments on this thread to try to improve what you're doing. We can always improve and take advice so its not a bad thing at all.


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## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

Myjb23 said:


> Quite possibly.
> 
> Though, if you are calling them a 'new breed' and there are shows being held for them, presumably there are others out there breeding these dogs to try to get them recognised breed status who could advise you more accturately on health testing and stuff.
> 
> And to be honest, if someone approached me with a sound, sensible argument for trying to create this breed and asked for advice on how to best go about it i would try to help them or point them in the right direction for people who can. Its not crossbreeding i have a problem with, its just when it is done for no reason and with no thought to the future of the dogs. I think you do care about the health and quality of your dogs and hopefully you will take on board the comments on this thread to try to improve what you're doing. We can always improve and take advice so its not a bad thing at all.


yes i have take some comments board my dog will now be hip scored


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Myjb23 said:


> Thats not true. Money can be made even with one bitch to breed from. A neighbour of mine wanted a new car so bred a litter from his staffy, and made enough profit to buy the car. .


That's not making a profit though it is just making some money at the time to buy something they required!
I'm sure they have forked out more in care for the bitch, even if they did not have health tests etc, just in food and veterinary care...presuming they have had her vacc's etc. Or to a vet if she reqiured any attention.
As I say why cannot these things be taken into account with other breeders if they can with show breeders etc?
I'm not condoning this type of breeding, the bitch you refer to, just stating a point.

Also you just made my point about smaller breeds selling at higher prices than the oldtymes.
I am not cirticisng your breeding methods in any way I do think, having read some of your threads and posts, that you do indeed breed your dogs with great care and planning. I love the little pugs.
It's just that I've noticed, over many many years, that some show breeders can be a bit against 'any' other breeders...even other show breeders sometimes!
This is why I stopped breeding sibes over 12 years ago when some as*hole at a show ran my pups foot over, breaking three toes, with her cage trolley because he'd beaten her pups....
I've always said some people hwo show 'dogs' can be very 'catty'.



oldtyme said:


> if i ask experienced breeders about breeding otb i will be told not to breed them and get a kc dog
> 
> i only had this litter to improve on what i got and keep apup back


I agree there.....


I'm not posting again as this just reminds me of a nursery rhyme I used to sing to the kids.

Round and round the garden.
Like a teddy bear,
Atishoo, atishoo,
We all fall down.

It's just going round in circles and people will never agree with each other, some will also contradict themselves, so it's not worth carrying on.
I wonder if people would still something disagree about if we all kept teddy bears?


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

imo the only way 2 help this breed is for breeders 2 slow down breeding them as there are so many bull breeds including otb in rescue n being pts every day.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

where have i szid costs of upkeep shouldnt be taken into account? I even mentioned it when saying the costs for mine. BUT general feeding and veterinary care is part of ownig a dog and i dont think you should count that as costs towards a litter as such. Health testing and showing/working is directly related to breeding. I dont think you should breed unless you health test and prove your dogs in some area.

Certainly there are some snobby show breeders, but equally you get the non kc breeders bad mouthing the show breeders and saying we only breed for profit which, as you know the costs involved in showing, you know is laughable. 



saxon said:


> That's not making a profit though it is just making some money at the time to buy something they required!
> I'm sure they have forked out more in care for the bitch, even if they did not have health tests etc, just in food and veterinary care...presuming they have had her vacc's etc. Or to a vet if she reqiured any attention.
> As I say why cannot these things be taken into account with other breeders if they can with show breeders etc?
> I'm not condoning this type of breeding, the bitch you refer to, just stating a point.
> ...


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

Myjb23 said:


> where have i szid costs of upkeep shouldnt be taken into account? I even mentioned it when saying the costs for mine. *BUT general feeding and veterinary care is part of ownig a dog and i dont think you should count that as costs towards a litter as such.* Health testing and showing/working is directly related to breeding. I dont think you should breed unless you health test and prove your dogs in some area.
> 
> Certainly there are some snobby show breeders, but equally you get the non kc breeders bad mouthing the show breeders and saying we only breed for profit which, as you know the costs involved in showing, you know is laughable.


:no1:


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

I think myjb23 as a breeder of kc registered quality,well cared for dogs that you are careful about homing , you are a breeder of integrity.

Oldtyme,I think with your non kc but quality well cared for dogs,bred for a reason that you also are careful about homing, that you are a breeder of integrity.

the people you are talking about,whether their dogs are kc or not are the people who don't care where their pups end up and alas we are talking about breeds that attract idiots.There is a large element of non caring breeders in both pet/backyard breeders and show breeders.Where there is cash there will be unscrupulous people always.I would be happy to buy a dog off of either of you.


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