# MBD metabolic bone disease info



## tortz (Nov 25, 2007)

Hi all,

I was wondering if everyone could post some pictures of the signs of MBD, in lizards.

This will not only help me, but will also help others in spotting the early signs of this disease.

Any input on this subject will be highly respected, by me and by everyone else.

Many thanks


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## Cali2304 (Jan 30, 2007)

Early signs include, shake-y limbs, lack of appetite, soft jaw bones and also our gecko found it hard to lift his head up


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

"bendy" limbs, either bowed or a funny walk.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

slightly curved back









bent legs









bent legs
and at the worst










youu can see this more that she has been on a diet but she has a bent spine









leo legs


































puffyness


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## bernards mom (Jan 29, 2007)

one gecko i had had very weak bendy arms (partly down to mbd partly down to starvation) but the most prominent mbd feature was her jaw. from the second pic you will see how much her lower jaw protrudes but also when i had to syringe feed her her whole lower jaw was that flexible it would fold in the middle rather than open at the jaw!


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## kizzy21_uk (Sep 6, 2008)

looking at all ur pictures i think my leopard gecko Gekks had mbd, we got him from a shop at 8 weeks he seemed ok something wasnt right but as an adult now he has bent front arms we call him spesul boy, but ive always dusted food and gutt loaded food have the correct set up. so wat causes it, is it something ive done wrongis he in pain....
also he lives wiv 2 ladys was hoping to breed um next year is this a bad idea....

i feel awful i didnt no


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

kizzy21_uk said:


> looking at all ur pictures i think my leopard gecko Gekks had mbd, we got him from a shop at 8 weeks he seemed ok something wasnt right but as an adult now he has bent front arms we call him spesul boy, but ive always dusted food and gutt loaded food have the correct set up. so wat causes it, is it something ive done wrongis he in pain....
> also he lives wiv 2 ladys was hoping to breed um next year is this a bad idea....
> 
> i feel awful i didnt no


MBD cannot be fixed but can be stopped so he will always have bent legs if he has had MBD you just dont want it to get worse...are his legs soft? (the bones?)


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## bernards mom (Jan 29, 2007)

do you have any pics you could put on?
alot of my geckos probs were down to the fact that she was emaciated and covered in unshed skin. i had to syringe feed her and with her feeds i fed either calcium, nutrabol or occasionally neither. after lots of love and care she is finally getting there. 
is yours eating ok? what supliments do you use and how often? how old is he now?


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## kizzy21_uk (Sep 6, 2008)

um i dont think so they feel like the other guys leg just they are bent funny shape sort forward, he seems happy eats very well.
wa do i do to stop it getting worse i mean i never knew and he is 3 years old now.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

kizzy21_uk said:


> um i dont think so they feel like the other guys leg just they are bent funny shape sort forward, he seems happy eats very well.
> wa do i do to stop it getting worse i mean i never knew and he is 3 years old now.


as long as your supplimently corerctly it wont get worse.. it wont go away however as its happened... it wont cause him problems.. as in pain etc 
just make sur eyou suplliment ocorrectly etc


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## kizzy21_uk (Sep 6, 2008)

oh good i was worried then i do dust im very strict on that i use nutrobol is this the best stuff also they have a small bowl of calcium in there tank.....

is it a bad idea to breed next year..

oh by the way the snails are doing fine there bout the size of a 10p peice now.


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

Yep, geckos need calcium and they also need the vitamins in nutrobal to be able to use the calcium correctly. Nutrobal is great stuff 

If he is a male, I don't see any reason why you couldn't use him for breeding as long as you kept a close eye on him. Its females you shouldn't breed from after they have had MBD as they use calcium for the eggs.


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## kizzy21_uk (Sep 6, 2008)

thanx thats great.xxxx


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## lucas (Oct 29, 2008)

When I purchased my leo I was told just to dust with nutrobal but my nutrobal has calcium in it too....


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

There is not enough calcium in nutrobal lucas hun, geckos need calcium and nutrobal.


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## reptiles_galore (Aug 13, 2008)

you should only be using nutrobol on saturday and sunday to coat food.
on weekdays you should use 100% calcium powder like calypso


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## kizzy21_uk (Sep 6, 2008)

lucas i just put a small bowl of calcium in the viv wiv the geckos they eat it like that but i too was not told this when i got them it was only coz i had the help of a close friend who breeds that told me to do this.x


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## zemanski (Jun 15, 2008)

This is Trevor when we first got him.











We were told he had a birth defect by the breeder but his feet were really bad with mbd.


fortunately I got some really good advice on here and from our local reptile shop, snakes'n'adders (now in Sheffield:bash and he has really improved - he now walks on one of his front feet almost normally:2thumb:.

this is him now :flrt:










I made sure he had a high calcium diet, I got a better uvb tube and dropped it low across the middle of the viv so that he is always within 8" of it and I took him outside every dry day for at least 15 mins right through the summer (real daylight is by far the best source of uvb, way more effective, even when overcast, than a tube)

I took him to the vet last month and she was really off with me about his mbd - she thought I'd caused it - so the next time I went I took the top picture; now she's lovely, she knows I have helped him recover even though the damage will always be there.

Initially she was going to give him calcium injections and all sorts but when she saw the photo she changed her mind and just gave me a high calcium diet for him and his prey.

Trevor is only allowed veg with very high calcium but low phosphorous and oxylates:

Turnip greens
Beet greens
Pak/bak choi (he loves this and it's easier to get than most of the others)
mustard/spring greens
broccoli leaf

I very occasionally add butternut or a dandelion head as garnish

his prey are fed the same veg

She gave me special calcium gut load paste for the prey (they don't get water or gel but this calcipaste mixed with water so they have to eat calcium if they want water

And she gave me a special calcium dust which every meal is dusted in (it doesn't stick like pure calcium so this doesn't overdose him)


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## lucas (Oct 29, 2008)

I see, I've been using this with my gecko for 3 years now. She seems to be ok though. I will however get the calcium. Is this ok?

Livefood UK Ltd.

So I can just put a dish of calcium in and then continue just dusting with nutrobal?


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## lucas (Oct 29, 2008)

zemon said:


> you should only be using nutrobol on saturday and sunday to coat food.
> on weekdays you should use 100% calcium powder like calypso


Is there such thing as over dosing calcium?!


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## zemanski (Jun 15, 2008)

I wanted to show you what mbd can do to a beardie's back!

She has a malformation of the spine that will never heal and has a secondary spinal fracture because of the weakening of the bone. She can no longer climb properly (most beardies only think they can anyway:lol2 or hunt effectively.

In addition the mbd has caused internal damage to various organs - liver, kidneys, etc

this was a beardie kept without uvb

*this is not my beardie*










Fortunately she has now been treated and is getting the best care her owner can give her. She has a good quality of life but will never really recover


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

Yep that should be fine lucas, just leave it in the viv in a dish but make sure it stays clean and dry.

Yes you can overdose with calcium but its rare. If you put a dish of calcium in the viv, your leos should eat what they need and not overdose on it.

You should only need to dust food with nutrobal a couple of times a week as zemon says, not every day.


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## zemanski (Jun 15, 2008)

lucas said:


> Is there such thing as over dosing calcium?!


yes

and it can cause almost as many problems as not getting enough!

stick to the pure calcium once a day and nutrobal at the weekend (with the pure calcium in the viv for geckos) unless advised to give more by a vet


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## lucas (Oct 29, 2008)

Thank you both for your help but one is saying dust and one is saying leave a dish in! lol

Whats the best thing to do? I'm thinking a dish....

I don't dust with nutrobal every feeding by the way.


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## zemanski (Jun 15, 2008)

leave in a dish for geckos - I don't keep geckos, sorry


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## lucas (Oct 29, 2008)

zemanski said:


> leave in a dish for geckos - I don't keep geckos, sorry


No problem! Thank you for your help! :2thumb:


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

Its up to you! Either way works, its down to preference I think. I leave a dish in and let them choose how much calcium they want to eat. I have never had any problems this way.


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## lucas (Oct 29, 2008)

nuttybabez said:


> Its up to you! Either way works, its down to preference I think. I leave a dish in and let them choose how much calcium they want to eat. I have never had any problems this way.


Ok, I'll do this. My leo is fully grown, will she still know what to do with it if she has never been given it before? May be a stupid question!


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## zemanski (Jun 15, 2008)

try it and see

just put a little in the dish then you can tell if she's been at it

if she doesn't learn to take it after a few days you can dust


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## lucas (Oct 29, 2008)

zemanski said:


> try it and see
> 
> just put a little in the dish then you can tell if she's been at it
> 
> if she doesn't learn to take it after a few days you can dust


Good idea. Cheers again!


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## James D (Nov 17, 2008)

An animal can only overdose on calcium, if it is provided with too much D3 in the diet.....

As well all know, reptiles (at least diurnal species) are famous for spending many hours basking in sunlight. This serves two main purposes; to absorb UVB radiation and to increase the animals core body temperature. Many of you will (hopefully) know that vitamin D3 (D3) is required for calcium absorption however, this starts life as a precursor in the skin of a reptile; provitamin D (provit D). This is converted into previtamin D (previt D) exposed to UVB radiation (from basking). The previt D is then converted into vitamin D3 when exposed to heat (again, gained from basking) which is then transported into the blood stream. 

Many people think that it is D3 that is responsible for the regulation of calcium absorption, however there are a few more conversions that must take place before this becomes an active hormone. Basically, the D3 is converted into a substance called calcediol in the liver and then into calcetriol in the kidneys. Calcetriol is the active hormone responsible for regulation of calcium absorption in the gut and also (if dietary levels are low) from the bones (causing MBD).

Both previt D and D3 are photodegraded (broken down by light) if their concentration becomes too high. This inbuilt safety mechanism is what prevents the animal from producing too much D3 therefore preventing overdose (hypervitaminosis D).

Normally, most reptiles (regardless of diet) have a diet that is low in D3. This means that virtually all of their D3 is synthesised by exposure to UVB…….it is this which makes it all too easy to overdose our animals. As very little (if any!) D3 is absorbed through the gut, there is no regulatory measure in place to prevent over absorption so too much in the diet (from supplements) will result in too much calcetriol and lead to hypercalcaemia (unusually high levels of calcium in the blood serum). This can result in calcium being deposited on bones leading to sharp projections, which if in the joints, will cause swelling and prove very painful. It can also result in the mineralisation of soft tissues, especially the kidneys (resulting in renal failure) and the main blood vessels.

MBD can be caused by too little D3 (either from too little supplementation or inadequate UVB exposure) or too little calcium. It results in weakness of bones (especially the long bones) as calcium is actively removed from them to be used in more important mechanisms in the body. The early signs would be bowed front limbs and a soft, maliable mandible. As calcium ions are also required for muscle contraction and synaptic transmission of nervous impulses, other more serious symptoms soon appear. Lethargy, uncoordinated movements and muscle spasms/twitches are seen in the later stages of the disease. Animals suffering from MBD may also have difficulty shedding which can lead to secondary problems such as toe/tail tip loss, mouth rot and eye infections.

I realise I don't have any pics, but thought this may help explain a little about the topic


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## zemanski (Jun 15, 2008)

thanks for that - I knew the basics but I find all these details fascinating


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

Bendy legged lady...


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## zemanski (Jun 15, 2008)

babies can hatch with mbd - females can have calcium problems when gravid and I suppose this means sometimes a hatchling hasn't had enough calcium from its mother. 
it can happen to just one from a clutch.


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

We have been given eggs to the shop in the past that looked fine during incubation, but half of the babies hatched with very severe MBD (had to be PTS) and the others milder, we managed to sort those ones out - you'd never know now!


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

cheers dude you just saved me writing an almost identical post! lol :Na_Na_Na_Na:




James D said:


> An animal can only overdose on calcium, if it is provided with too much D3 in the diet.....
> 
> As well all know, reptiles (at least diurnal species) are famous for spending many hours basking in sunlight. This serves two main purposes; to absorb UVB radiation and to increase the animals core body temperature. Many of you will (hopefully) know that vitamin D3 (D3) is required for calcium absorption however, this starts life as a precursor in the skin of a reptile; provitamin D (provit D). This is converted into previtamin D (previt D) exposed to UVB radiation (from basking). The previt D is then converted into vitamin D3 when exposed to heat (again, gained from basking) which is then transported into the blood stream.
> 
> ...


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## tortz (Nov 25, 2007)

Big thanks to all that have posted,

There is a lot of info in here now, It it does take some reading!

I have have found this very usefull, and from some of the posts others have too.

Many thanks once again, 

Any more input please feel free


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## jeepers (Feb 17, 2008)

I posted up a thread the other day about my Leo having problems shedding recently, I've noticed "bendy legs" as well so I've just found this thread. Most symptoms seem familiar to what I'm seeing. Using nutrabol currently but which is the best calcium product to use? Leo is only about 6-7 months old so surprised it's showing signs already, what are the chances it could be badly affected by nbd at this age? Thanks


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## James D (Nov 17, 2008)

jeepers said:


> I posted up a thread the other day about my Leo having problems shedding recently, I've noticed "bendy legs" as well so I've just found this thread. Most symptoms seem familiar to what I'm seeing. Using nutrabol currently but which is the best calcium product to use? Leo is only about 6-7 months old so surprised it's showing signs already, what are the chances it could be badly affected by nbd at this age? Thanks


Have you only been using nutrabol?
How long have you had it?
They are more prone to MBD when they are growing as their calcium requirements are higher. If it hasn't been getting pure calcium powder regularly, then it is highly likely that it has the start of MBD.
You will need to take it to the vets to get the treatment it needs as soon as you can to prevent further damage......and that's all you can do as the damage that's already been done is usually permanent.

I use calypso powder as my calcium carbonate supplement.


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## gecko101 (Dec 18, 2008)

would you say this has mbd(this was a while ago ill post new ones soon)








she is strong and fast (the camera dosent help)


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## jeepers (Feb 17, 2008)

James D said:


> Have you only been using nutrabol?
> How long have you had it?
> They are more prone to MBD when they are growing as their calcium requirements are higher. If it hasn't been getting pure calcium powder regularly, then it is highly likely that it has the start of MBD.
> You will need to take it to the vets to get the treatment it needs as soon as you can to prevent further damage......and that's all you can do as the damage that's already been done is usually permanent.
> ...


Had the gecko for about 3 months and only used nutribal. I know they don't need uv lighting but I already had a UVB 6.0 tube fitted so turn that on most days until about 10-12 hours.


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## James D (Nov 17, 2008)

jeepers said:


> Had the gecko for about 3 months and only used nutribal. I know they don't need uv lighting but I already had a UVB 6.0 tube fitted so turn that on most days until about 10-12 hours.


You need to get some pure calcium carbonate powder (like calypso) to use too. I used calypso on every feed apart from when I used nutrabol once a week.
You should definately get it to a vet as soon as you can too......the earlier the treatment starts, the better the prognosis.
Also, whether they need/benefit from UV exposure is something that is still highly debated. If you have a search through this section, you'll find some of the arguments for and against.....


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## jeepers (Feb 17, 2008)

Any idea what the likely treatment would consist of??


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## gecko101 (Dec 18, 2008)

has think got mbd(taken a while ago ill post new ones)

shes very fast and strong


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

gecko101 said:


> has think got mbd(taken a while ago ill post new ones)
> 
> shes very fast and strong


are you doing anything about it?


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## gecko101 (Dec 18, 2008)

all her food is coated in calium powder, and i giv her bone aid(liquid cal)


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## jeepers (Feb 17, 2008)

Any idea how much vets charge for the course of calcium treatment?

Just after an idea to prepare myself, know it's a £40 consultation fee to start of with.


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## James D (Nov 17, 2008)

jeepers said:


> Any idea how much vets charge for the course of calcium treatment?
> 
> Just after an idea to prepare myself, know it's a £40 consultation fee to start of with.


It will vary from place to place. You're best bet is to phone the surgery up and ask for a rough estimate.

£40 seems like a lot of money for a consultation fee to me though...


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## jeepers (Feb 17, 2008)

James D said:


> It will vary from place to place. You're best bet is to phone the surgery up and ask for a rough estimate.
> 
> £40 seems like a lot of money for a consultation fee to me though...


Cheapest herp vet I could find in Cardiff was 35 quid, for an extra fiver ValleyPets who are the local specialists would take a look. No-one willing to estimate a price until after a consultation so not sure what to expect!


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## jeepers (Feb 17, 2008)

Back from the vets with my Leo, taken a faecial specimin which they are examining and they've given him lactulose, critical care powder and some calcium supplement. Have to feed him all of those by syringe, if no improvement in health or appetite then have to take him back for xrays and blood tests which will be another wallet busting £120. Worth every penny if he gets better though!

Anyone had problems with the loss of appetite? Any suggestions on getting him to eat again, esp some high protein foods??


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## KatiePearce (Aug 15, 2008)

i read somewhere that leos cant overdose on calcium because if they consume too much they just store it.

anyway, because there is so much conflicting advice i decided to buy Neutrobol, TRex leopard gecko cricket dust and the Komodo leo cricket dust. I feed every other day and use them all on a rotational basis. for example on mondays i'll use neutrobol on weds komodo and on fridays TRex and then whatever at the weekend.

its seems to work so far! 

thinking about throwing some calypso into the mix haha 

p.s i have also mixed a small ammount of all three powders and let it in my vivs


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## kizzy21_uk (Sep 6, 2008)

i think this should be a sticky very helpfull.


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## xsmithx2 (Oct 24, 2007)

this is really helpfull info..

i would like to look after one of these.. i would like pamper it ( like give it a home)


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## zemanski (Jun 15, 2008)

it's not about pampering, it's about absolutely spot on set ups, high quality supplements and care and being prepared to pay for vets' bills which can run to several hundred pounds

the commitment you need to take on a sick animal is huge and the time you need to really care for it properly to bring it back to some semblance of good health (and these lizards do not ever fully recover if the mbd has been at all bad, though they can look as though they have and do lead full, happy lives) is immense

I don't mean to discourage you exactly but you do need to know it is a tough job and those people who do take it on by choice (my baby had mbd and I didn't know) are pretty amazing in their commitment to their animals:notworthy:


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## zemanski (Jun 15, 2008)

KatiePearce said:


> i read somewhere that leos cant overdose on calcium because if they consume too much they just store it.
> 
> anyway, because there is so much conflicting advice i decided to buy Neutrobol, TRex leopard gecko cricket dust and the Komodo leo cricket dust. I feed every other day and use them all on a rotational basis. for example on mondays i'll use neutrobol on weds komodo and on fridays TRex and then whatever at the weekend.
> 
> ...


be careful, the reason we use calypso most days and a vitamin supplement just 2 days is because you can quite easily overdose your lizard on the vitamins, especially vit A


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## ToxicSiren (Aug 8, 2008)

zemanski said:


> it's not about pampering, it's about absolutely spot on set ups, high quality supplements and care and being prepared to pay for vets' bills which can run to several hundred pounds
> 
> the commitment you need to take on a sick animal is huge and the time you need to really care for it properly to bring it back to some semblance of good health (and these lizards do not ever fully recover if the mbd has been at all bad, though they can look as though they have and do lead full, happy lives) is immense
> 
> I don't mean to discourage you exactly but you do need to know it is a tough job and those people who do take it on by choice (my baby had mbd and I didn't know) are pretty amazing in their commitment to their animals:notworthy:


Fully agree here it can be very hard work and heart breaking sometimes. I take in geckos and beardies with MBD had a cham with it too. Sometimes they are so bad you cannot help them. Ive lost a cham to this and to hatchling geckos which were rescues. Theres vets bills and all correct equiptment to buy. Supliments and medical care to buy. You need to correct knowledge on how to treat them. Above all it takes a lot of time and dedication. I had 2 non feeders and they took up nearly all my time between them both. Its very rewarding tho when you have a success story. x


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