# frogs that do not need uv



## Crazygeckoboy (Apr 24, 2014)

Hi, i am wondering what frog species can i keep in a exo terra 30 by 30 by 45 that does not require a uv light. I can provide a heat mat


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Tank size is too small 


Thanks 
Dane


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## Crazygeckoboy (Apr 24, 2014)

I am sure there is some frog,i was looking at american tree frog. The viv is not too small


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Well if you know the answer why are u asking? 
I personally think this tank size is to small 


Thanks 
Dane


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## Crazygeckoboy (Apr 24, 2014)

I dont know the answer, i was just wondering if there is any other frogs.
And y does it seem you r shouting at me.  like i just asked for help, nothing too hard to give from a premium member


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

I'm not shouting sorry if that's how it reads its hard to get across via interweb mate 
Look I personally don't think a frog can be kept in this size viv and would look at something bigger why do u need to use this size viv? 


Thanks 
Dane


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Crazygeckoboy said:


> Hi, i am wondering what frog species can i keep in a exo terra 30 by 30 by 45 that does not require a uv light. I can provide a heat mat


Ideally nothing with dart frog in it`s name.


Mike


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

This question gets asked in this section almost every month and we always say the same and sometimes the op will argue this is a good size viv
Personally I think exo terra and other viv makes made a mistake making this a std viv size as I find them pointless


Thanks 
Dane


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> Personally I think exo terra and other viv makes made a mistake making this a std viv size as *I find them pointless*
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Dane


Not entirely true Dane.
You could keep an itsy bitsy spider in them :2thumb:.


Mike


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Chill, guys- a 45cm tall is ok for *some* frogs- reeds, for example. I agree it's really too small for more than a pair of green treefrogs, though.

EDIT: The UV question is a whole big issue- there is a strong arguement that even nocturnal frogs benefit from at least _some_ UV; I've kept lots for years without, but now try to provide a low index (2-5%) where I can.


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)




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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I think Joe just summed it up nicely there.


Mike


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## Crazygeckoboy (Apr 24, 2014)

but she seems happy in that box.:lol2:
I see your point but i have this viv already so i cant let it get to waste, however the people on the reptile suggest i could get a crested gecko into it.However i would love for a frog to live init, i love frogs,i used to take tadpoles from my sch pond, i just want to relive those moments.


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

I would have thought they would suggest a baby crestie again I wouldnt personally keep an adult in there.... There really is not enough room for most active animals in this size viv 
Ok mike maybe a spider or a stick insect
I have always been a believer of research into what u want and then get a cage/ viv for the size of the animal rather having a viv and try fit something in it
I would sell or trade the viv u have for a proper nice size ENT viv for a frog for example I have used vivs bigger then this for £30 which I think is peanuts and would suit a crestie or frog better then this viv 
This is my personal opinion only 


Thanks 
Dane


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Meefloaf said:


> image


Clearly I know nothing... :whistling2:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

CGB,mate, no one is having a pop at you,these guys I know too a man, they are lovely folks,but damn they care alot about their animals and want the best for them. So it's almost an ethos that we ask not what is the smallest viv a critter can live in,but we ask what's the biggest space we can squeeze into our tiny houses for our animals. 

Let me go left field to illustrate: I am a poultry guy have bred over 250 breed of chucks. I know folks can keep them in battery cages,they stay alive they make folks lots of money,but walk into a battery house and see the birds,they are just a shadow of what they should be,they eat each other because they are so bored pull each others feathers out,come out as a totally brain dead shadow of a bird living free range,ha and their eggs taste like XXXX into the bargain.

My point is things might not be so extreme visually with phibs,but then half the time with these guys spotting something is wrong is horrendously difficult, if a keeper doesn't have his eye in on a serious level,then he's possibly looking at a precursor to death. 

My question to you is simple,how far can you jump,ok we'll say 15 feet, would you feel happy in that space. Sure you have more going on than a frog,but should we try for the best,rather than oh I know I can keep a human alive in a 15'sq box.

Ron is a great mate of mine he and I know that american greens will sit for bloody eons doing nowt,but I'll disagree with him here,because I know american greens can nail a fly nearly 18 inches away(actually I remember two foot,but it's a long time back) .again a point to this,what comes back will not be a bashing,it will be thoughtful and respectful. That's exactly
what you got from Dane(GMB),he's actually off I reckon we see this post every couple of weeks or so.

I think we should measure viv size by what a frog can do at it's extreme and say double that(as an absolute minimum),otherwise we confine them,that should NOT be our goal. Our goal should be what I can do for the little guy I decided to put in a glass box.

Ya know, i have had a few folks here over the years, some way more experienced than i, almost always there are comments on how big the vivs are,how I've maxed out space for frogs,but honestly and truly I think I fell short. There, for sure, is an argument for how the space in viv can be maxed for the inhabitant and for sure I know very successful breeders using small spaces through their expertise,but I think there is more to be had !!

I'm 1000 % with the grizzly I wish they just didn't make these small vivs,it sends out the wrong message to new guys and we pick up the bits,not bloody exo or whom ever they are!!. Honestly I wish for a day when Exo answered these posts not US ,a new guy buys a small viv ,'cause he ain't got much to spend so he buys the smaller it's cheaper and wants to keep some frogs he's not to blame is he.

Best stop their the passion is starting to show:gasp:

Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Crazygeckoboy said:


> but she seems happy in that box.:lol2:
> I see your point but i have this viv already so i cant let it get to waste, however the people on the reptile suggest i could get a crested gecko into it.However i would love for a frog to live init, i love frogs,i used to take tadpoles from my sch pond, i just want to relive those moments.



At least your smiling which isn`t a bad thing.
The problem here is that people who don`t keep frogs don`t realise how active most are, and THAT is what makes the viv too small.
Even the smallest dart frog will climb a 100ft tall tree, so how does that compare to a 1ft square viv ?
I`m in the process of building a 70cm tall viv for thumbnails and I consider that to be too small.
Truthfully though there was a day when I would have used a smaller viv, but not now that I know better.
Maybe a pacman/pizza would be okay as all they do is sit around all day waiting for a finger to chew on.
But dart frogs ?
Nope.


Mike


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## Crazygeckoboy (Apr 24, 2014)

I think, i should open my eyes and take ur guys advice, so i will probaly buy the exo.terra. 45 cm by 45cm.by 45cm


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Just a few things mate, all depending on the frog u are wanting to keep but exo terra are not great to hold high humidity and also not fly proof  that can be a PITA if you want a brand new viv talk to DMS Vivaria or Richie at rainforest vivs or Marc at dartfrog they can supply a great ENT style viv that will be better for darts and I have also kept tree frogs, day geckos and cresties in these vivs also I honestly think there better then exo terra and sometimes cheaper, also if your not bothered get in the classified section there are many second hand ENT vivs at a good price 
Sorry if I came across as a knob before mate I don't mean to honestly 


Thanks 
Dane


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Dane ? A knob ?
Now your talking bollox :Na_Na_Na_Na:.


Mike


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## Crazygeckoboy (Apr 24, 2014)

I think i was being a knob by not listening, but i guess i will have a look in the classified section.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Seriously, you and any frogs you get will be a lot happier for it.


Mike


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> CGB,mate, no one is having a pop at you,these guys I know too a man, they are lovely folks,but damn they care alot about their animals and want the best for them. So it's almost an ethos that we ask not what is the smallest viv a critter can live in,but we ask what's the biggest space we can squeeze into our tiny houses for our animals.
> 
> Let me go left field to illustrate: I am a poultry guy have bred over 250 breed of chucks. I know folks can keep them in battery cages,they stay alive they make folks lots of money,but walk into a battery house and see the birds,they are just a shadow of what they should be,they eat each other because they are so bored pull each others feathers out,come out as a totally brain dead shadow of a bird living free range,ha and their eggs taste like XXXX into the bargain.
> 
> ...


Point taken so far as it goes, Stu- I have kept a pair of greens (apparently quite happily) in a 12 by 12 by 18 Exo- but my current viv for four of them is a 18 by 18 by 24 high- the same as for my golden treefrogs. I do have six reed frogs in the original Exo, though- they seem to be fine.


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

i've always pondered (i'm always pondering) and it follows on from mike's comment's, people blur the ol terrestrial and "arboreal" (its not the right word but you know what i mean, off the ground) species,

there are frogs which live on the ground and there are frogs which live in trees, yup, but people think because a frog lives on the ground it isnt going to climb etc, imagine what the floor of your local woods is like. It's up and down and roots running along roots arching out of the ground etc, now imagine the tree's in your woods were ten times bigger lol. i imagine that whilst these darts will live in a tiny pocket, they'll do their fair sahre of hiking up and down massive 7foot buttress roots or just even up a small crevice in the ground.

so in essence even the lovely 2ft cubes are probably 100th of the area these guys must cover, just imagine how different that terrain will be. so for me, most dart frogs may not climb a vertical (although they do to hang out in broms) even the most terrestrial of frogs will probably be used to having to do some climbing


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## micky0 (Jul 25, 2012)

Funny no-one said pac man frog? I kept mine in a tank this size when he was baby then as he grew I used my head and put tank on its back with doors at top. You can always upgrade when fully grown :2thumb: and they can go in plastic storage box and of course need no UV :2thumb:


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

micky0 said:


> Funny no-one said pac man frog? I kept mine in a tank this size when he was baby then as he grew I used my head and put tank on its back with doors at top. You can always upgrade when fully grown :2thumb: and they can go in plastic storage box and of course need no UV :2thumb:


I was just about to suggest one of the horned frogs. Deepish substrate a water dish and a plastic plant or two to provide cover. Job done.


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## micky0 (Jul 25, 2012)

Basin79 said:


> I was just about to suggest one of the horned frogs. Deepish substrate a water dish and a plastic plant or two to provide cover. Job done.


And he may be lucky and get one as sweet as mine ( he is a one off) who sings when I whistle or winks his eyes when he sees me and sits up . He is real calm and quite entertaining , need to get him on you tube me thinks :lol2:


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

micky0 said:


> Funny no-one said pac man frog? I kept mine in a tank this size when he was baby then as he grew I used my head and put tank on its back with doors at top. You can always upgrade when fully grown :2thumb: and they can go in plastic storage box and of course need no UV :2thumb:


Yes well said and after reading this thread again I think Ron mentioned reed frogs 
I do think as the majority keep darts in this section we forgot about other species 

From now on I think my replies will be "no for any darts" like mike has done

As I keep retics which are a very small dart and I would keep 2 of them in this size viv I kind of assume, well not anymore 

Thanks for the other guys with viable suggestions including Ron who I missed last night 


Thanks 
Dane


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## micky0 (Jul 25, 2012)

Dart frogs are seen as more interesting as they are so colourfull and active . Most people tend to get bored with pac mans , mine is one of the few with Character. Im lucky I tend to end up with animals that are a little bit unique, or it could be living with me sends them that way :lol2:


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## johne.ev (Sep 14, 2008)

Before anyone jumps out their pram, i'm not advocating this & quite possibly i'm mistaken. But thought i read this size viv was recommended for a pair of thumbnails (imitators anyway) over on Dendroboard??


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## Addymk2 (Dec 25, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> CGB,mate, no one is having a pop at you,these guys I know too a man, they are lovely folks,but damn they care alot about their animals and want the best for them. So it's almost an ethos that we ask not what is the smallest viv a critter can live in,but we ask what's the biggest space we can squeeze into our tiny houses for our animals.
> 
> Let me go left field to illustrate: I am a poultry guy have bred over 250 breed of chucks. I know folks can keep them in battery cages,they stay alive they make folks lots of money,but walk into a battery house and see the birds,they are just a shadow of what they should be,they eat each other because they are so bored pull each others feathers out,come out as a totally brain dead shadow of a bird living free range,ha and their eggs taste like XXXX into the bargain.
> 
> ...


Exo Terra : Habitat Kit Rainforest / Starter Kit

Exo do but no one ever reads it and there recommendations are open to debate! Click the link OP and check out the recommendations for the small setup.


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

johne.ev said:


> Before anyone jumps out their pram, i'm not advocating this & quite possibly i'm mistaken. But thought i read this size viv was recommended for a pair of thumbnails (imitators anyway) over on Dendroboard??


dont they tend to be crazy fast and regarded as a more advanced group to keep due to their small size and requirements ?


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

johne.ev said:


> Before anyone jumps out their pram, i'm not advocating this & quite possibly i'm mistaken. But thought i read this size viv was recommended for a pair of thumbnails (imitators anyway) over on Dendroboard??


For someone who keeps thumbs I wouldn't put them in this viv it's not tall enough for a start and needs to be deeper 


Thanks 
Dane


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> Point taken so far as it goes, Stu- I have kept a pair of greens (apparently quite happily) in a 12 by 12 by 18 Exo- but my current viv for four of them is a 18 by 18 by 24 high- the same as for my golden treefrogs. I do have six reed frogs in the original Exo, though- they seem to be fine.


Actually Ron,I think I owe ya an apology,well ya getting one anyway,Can't help it mate,I'll always have baggage about small cages and i think my post was slightly off calling you out almost,I knew what would come back wou ld be civilized and was trying to make a point about folks being cool here,but I didn't do it very well,I should have reined it in a bit. I have huge respect for the way you keep and help so many folks here tirelessly with all that accumulated nouce. My bad dude

best

Stu


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

The bro love going around is making me feel uneasy 


Thanks 
Dane


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> The bro love going around is making me feel uneasy
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Dane


:Na_Na_Na_Na: Tough,old hippies do love and peace man,be careful or you'll be next LMAO when I think i'm wrong mate,I have never had a problem admitting it.:whistling2:

Now what was that about Rani being slow:mf_dribble:,Joe Fants are pocket rockets,gotta say I'm crapping myself about moving these summersi to viv from QT:gasp:

Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I know people who keep thumbs in 30x30x45 vivs, but that doesn`t mean it`s right.
Personally I wouldn`t.
The first pair of Salt Creeks I bought about 3 years ago the guy said to me they`ll be fine in a 30x30x30.
So I bought one cheap at the meet as I didn`t have a spare viv at home and used it for a few months.
I kept thinking to myself "there`s no way on earth this viv is large enough for a pair of these", and Salt Creeks are one of the smallest Pums around.
So I got another larger viv and moved them.
The 30x30 is now gathering dust somewhere.
Yes we know what the Yanks do over the pond, but many of them tend to think they`re the best at everything.
Fortunately they`re not all like that.
And don`t dare go on their forums and query what they do lol.


Mike


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Where 30cm x 30cm x 45cm vivs are concerned, it's not the size but what you do with it that counts.

You CAN keep a pair of imis in one no problem, so long as you arrange it and decorate it right to make maximum use of the space. My banded imitators are in one. I wouldn't have chosen it myself, I prefer 40cm cubes for thumbs, but they came in it, and there they have stayed. BUT, I certainly wouldn't recommend immis as a first dart frog, or a 30x30x45cm for that matter as most will cover the back and sides with a nice thick covering, then shove a twig up the middle of it. :lol2:


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

I have pairs of Thumbs in those size tanks and they do "okay"

Would I do it again, nope. For now, that is their home.

Mine are pretty tame though and don't act like rockets and spaz. We have an understanding. :lol2:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

It`s as I said there are people who do it.
But here we have two posts with both saying they`d not do it again.
So that's 3 of us.
Anyway, hiya Glen how are you keeping ?


Mike


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

frogman955 said:


> It`s as I said there are people who do it.
> But here we have two posts with both saying they`d not do it again.
> So that's 3 of us.
> Anyway, hiya Glen how are you keeping ?
> ...


That does make 3 of us. They are small and you don't really realize how small until you do them up and add the frogs. I'm good Mike. Thanks for asking. You?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

frogfreak said:


> That does make 3 of us. They are small and *you don't really realize how small until you do them up and add the frogs*. I'm good Mike. Thanks for asking. You?


Never a truer word spoken Glenn.
As Ade said it`s when you stick in a background and plants etc suddenly there`s no room left.
I`m good though Glenn, busy doing a few frog related jobs like building a new viv for some thumbs I bought and trying to nail a nemertean population.
I`ve found something that kills them, I just need to find out if there`s a threat to the frogs.
So that's my Sunday up till now.

Mike


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

frogman955 said:


> I`m good though Glenn, busy doing a few frog related jobs like building a new viv for some thumbs I bought and trying to nail a nemertean population.
> I`ve found something that kills them, I just need to find out if there`s a threat to the frogs.
> So that's my Sunday up till now.
> 
> Mike


Good to hear, Mike! 

Argh! How do you plan on killing them? In viv?

I figure this thread about tank size is pretty much done lol :whistling2:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I`ll pm you on this Glenn.


Mike


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

frogman955 said:


> I`ll pm you on this Glenn.
> 
> 
> Mike


Sounds good!


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

frogman955 said:


> It`s as I said there are people who do it.
> But here we have two posts with both saying they`d not do it again.
> So that's 3 of us.
> Anyway, hiya Glen how are you keeping ?
> ...


I didn't do it the first time Mike, the frogs came with the viv all done already. Luckily the guy knew what he was doing and rather than backgrounds he used smeared black silicone mixed with some sort of earth like substrate, and he attached peaces of wood to the back and sides to create additional horizontal space. My banded imis aren't particularly zoomy either, they tend to just sit and watch me when I open the doors, and are TINY frogs, even compared to all but my Punta Clara pumilio (which are pretty darned tiny too, and I keep them in a 50x50x40cm viv as they ARE zoomy, very much so, and spend 85% of their time mooching around at floor level).

If I really need a smaller footprint viv, I'd rather use a 30x40x40 Euro style. But it's pretty rare that I can't fit in a 40cm cube or bigger Euro style. 40cm cube, black Fablon on the outside, wood and plants on the inside, the amount of space you end up with in there is excellent, and it's harder to go wrong working in a 40x40 footprint compared to a 30x30 footprint. End of the day, frogs that do well in 30x30x45cm vivs do even better in 40x40x40cm vivs. Try getting a deep layer of leaf litter in a viv with a 30cm square footprint, AS WELL as plants... Pretty quickly the 30cm falls short

My only concern though is the culture of ranting against something without even having any experience of trying it. I see it so often on here and elsewhere where people who have never even tried something rant against it. There ARE frogs that will fit in a 30x30x45cm cube when done right, they're just harder to decorate right, and usually the frogs are little rockets considered harder to keep.  Jumping on the band wagon though, we've all done it at some point, all it achieves is to create internet myths.

I'm neither pro or anti the use of 30x30x45cm vivs for darts. I just think that bigger are better.

I'm off now to hide in the cupboard again. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

I have had experience with these size tanks and tried to use them as a qt viv as it fits in a dishwasher lol I don't like them not even for qt I can find bigger Tupperware tubs  
Once I get 2 decent broms in there I have no space left lol


Thanks 
Dane


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Try harder? :Na_Na_Na_Na:










Doors are shut as one of my imis decided to say hello. :lol2:


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Again mate I think it all comes down to personal opinions I'm sure you could keep them in a 20cm cube if done correctly but I just can't use the 30x30x45 and never really liked/ agreed with them. That don't say people can't just saying I never will and I will never advise a newbie to do so either. 


Thanks 
Dane


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Forgot to say mate the viv looks good as always  


Thanks 
Dane


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> Forgot to say mate the viv looks good as always
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Dane


I can't take credit this time bud, all that I did was add a few broms and the Columbian creeping ficus. I wouldn't even think of using one of these for frogs. :lol2:

They're spot on for arboreal tarantulas though... lol

Ade


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Yeah spiders and insects would be fine, I had l.willamsi in some for about a month and realised they need more room 


Thanks 
Dane


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> Yes well said and after reading this thread again I think Ron mentioned reed frogs
> I do think as the majority keep darts in this section we forgot about other species
> 
> From now on I think my replies will be "no for any darts" like mike has done
> ...





soundstounite said:


> Actually Ron,I think I owe ya an apology,well ya getting one anyway,Can't help it mate,I'll always have baggage about small cages and i think my post was slightly off calling you out almost,I knew what would come back wou ld be civilized and was trying to make a point about folks being cool here,but I didn't do it very well,I should have reined it in a bit. I have huge respect for the way you keep and help so many folks here tirelessly with all that accumulated nouce. My bad dude
> 
> best
> 
> Stu


Yep, I wouldn't recommend Exos of this size (or any other size) for darts- because I don't keep them. Some of us don't, you know, and not all frogs need the humidity to be quite so high- certainly my reedfrogs, golden treefrogs, green treefrogs, Malayan painted frogs, burrowing frogs or true toads don't. Just saying... :whistling2:

And by the way, Stu, you at least have nothing to be sorry for!


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron,
Small vivs my Achillies heel bro,It's always been there,you read alot of my post's I guess and will have seen me trying to wax lyrical about depth,trying to grab an extra few cm's for the critters. Ron I know it can be done, I know a couple of great keepers using small vivs,actually one came here very early on in us keeping darts,he told me about the viv size(the exact same as here) he used,very successfully I might add. Then he said damn I wish i'd made 'em bigger,like these.
So I almost wish I hadn't posted what I did on reflection,but the truth is I'd have been untrue to the same post i've made on small vivs here for yonks now and my view hasn't changed, I don't like them,period. there is nothing about a small viv that can't be done better in a bigger viv.

Buuuut my part of the post directed towards you I still feel was cras,so da apology stands:gasp::Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:

Anyway the rest has been covered ad infinitum now give it a few weeks and we can do it again:lol2::lol2::lol2: 

take care bro

Stu


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> Ron,
> Small vivs my Achillies heel bro,It's always been there,you read alot of my post's I guess and will have seen me trying to wax lyrical about depth,trying to grab an extra few cm's for the critters. Ron I know it can be done, I know a couple of great keepers using small vivs,actually one came here very early on in us keeping darts,he told me about the viv size(the exact same as here) he used,very successfully I might add. Then he said damn I wish i'd made 'em bigger,like these.
> So I almost wish I hadn't posted what I did on reflection,but the truth is I'd have been untrue to the same post i've made on small vivs here for yonks now and my view hasn't changed, I don't like them,period. there is nothing about a small viv that can't be done better in a bigger viv.
> 
> ...


My point though, Stu, is should 'space' be the only criterion? Or should it be geared to the actual species? For example, should my burrowing frogs, who spend most of their lives in their shallow tunnels, be given a 4ft viv of space to use, when they don't even use most of the space in their own small viv? Slightly off of 'phibs, but it helps to illustrate the point; should some of the crepuscular snakes, who show all the signs of agoraphobia in large open spaces, be nonetheless forced to live in them? It's not all about what *we* would want- or what as humans we think they should want- we have to tailor what we do to the needs of the actual animals- otherwise it's about pleasing us rather than them.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> My point though, Stu, is should 'space' be the only criterion? Or should it be geared to the actual species? For example, should my burrowing frogs, who spend most of their lives in their shallow tunnels, be given a 4ft viv of space to use, when they don't even use most of the space in their own small viv? Slightly off of 'phibs, but it helps to illustrate the point; should some of the crepuscular snakes, who show all the signs of agoraphobia in large open spaces, be nonetheless forced to live in them? It's not all about what *we* would want- or what as humans we think they should want- we have to tailor what we do to the needs of the actual animals- otherwise it's about pleasing us rather than them.


Superb point well made buddy,I can't disagree and as above I know I have issues here ,they are what they are Ron and I've tried to illustrate in that first post why I feel so passionately(granted somewhat poorly),so the op can allow for that.

It should always be about the animal Ron,what's best for them...ALWAYS,but in the small viv senario we see so oft is that always the case? What should be happening is someone researches a frog,wow those are cool thinks on that species asks about what size vivs to suit: folks chuck in their two pennth new keeper runs off and ponders deeply, finds suitable accomodation for froggy or sal etc 

I think alot of this is sort of backwards, mate,but man I'm so bloody tired who knows

great point though bro:2thumb:

Stu


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