# dart frog substrate



## calandlew (Jun 17, 2013)

hi everyone , ive decided to use a clay ball base for drainage in my dart tank and was wondering which is the best substrate to use ? ideally a complete mix with a few things in it please ?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I don't keep darts, but the substrate for frogs I use generally is pretty standard: a mix of coco fibre, orchid bark and leafmould (nuked in the microwave if you prefer). Proportions are up to you, but for better drainage, increase the bark.


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## calandlew (Jun 17, 2013)

hi mate , im only getting the one tank for a while so i wanted a pre mix with alot in it to be fair as i dont have the tanks so wont need alot of volume , but thanks anyway


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

I've not used the leca method.So help is best left to others. But I can tell you you will need something to stop the subs falling into the leca. We use the sloping glass floor method,coarse drainage provided by orchid bark part rotted leaf littler and lots of whole leaves to top it off. I would possibly stear clear of ecoearth,but not being familiar with this method makes it difficult to assertain if this would hold too much water as it has a tendency to do. Which every way you go i would nuke it,springtails are so damn important,it's best to do all one can to avoid nemerteans.

Stu


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## calandlew (Jun 17, 2013)

hi stu , nemerteans ? havent heard of that/those what are they please ? ill be getting springtails and woodlice once the tank is planted .


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## buddah (Dec 23, 2009)

I use lecca with hydro fleece over the top of it then a mix of simply eco earth with crushed up leaves. i gather the leaves from what i beleive to be a safe source away from agriculture and other pollutants then just roughly crush them up as they are. They will contain fungus and moulds which make a happy mini eco system. Then throw in springtails and woodlice and leave to mature for a few weeks.


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## calandlew (Jun 17, 2013)

cheers buddha , so you havent had any bad experiances with eco earth then ? read alot of people complaining about it ?


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

i made my mixture using coal, crushed magnolia and oak leaves, orchid bark, tree fern fibre and a DASH of eco earth (tiny amount)


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

calandlew said:


> hi stu , nemerteans ? havent heard of that/those what are they please ? ill be getting springtails and woodlice once the tank is planted .


They are a small predatory flat worm,they munch springtails,so they are almost a competitor for our froggy grub. They will also take Ff I'm told,but I've not seen that. Buddy I'm not really one of the nuke everything brigade,I have learnt to try and stay clear of these little sods by experience. Woodlice seem to be unaffected by them and might possibly predate them,maybe the eggs? We have a slightly different set of parameters to fulfill than other phib keepers,as our frogs food is so much smaller,so we have slightly different problems. Look a slug in another frogs viv is just going to get munched,but in a dart viv it has the potential to eat all the embryos of your frogs eggs...similar issues with snails. So although I want that diversity that someone like Ron can harness,for his larger charges,by using leaves etc from a safe source,I nuke stuff to try and avoid those animals that would make life more difficult for me.
Possibly nemerteans are the most difficult to deal with of the above slugs and snails can be clobbered by various means,but you can still rear frogs and their kids in vivs that have these beasties,it just means you will work harder on the springtail culturing ,that said quite a few folks have stripped a viv out because of problems.Snails in an oophaga viv can clobber production of kids completely as the eggs never get chance to hatch if the problem is really bad. as I mentioned a right PITA .


best

Stu


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Meefloaf said:


> i made my mixture using coal, crushed magnolia and oak leaves, orchid bark, tree fern fibre and a DASH of eco earth (tiny amount)


Just to be clear here Joe,you mean charcoal don't you not coal,sure obvious to us:2thumb: but you never know:lol2:
best

Stu


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

calandlew said:


> cheers buddha , so you havent had any bad experiances with eco earth then ? read alot of people complaining about it ?


There is nowt wrong with it mate,it just hold a LOT of water tis all

Stu


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

soundstounite said:


> Just to be clear here Joe,you mean charcoal don't you not coal,sure obvious to us:2thumb: but you never know:lol2:
> best
> 
> Stu


yeah sorry, Lumpwood charcoal without any easylight stuff on it.....put in a pillow case and smashed


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## buddah (Dec 23, 2009)

calandlew said:


> cheers buddha , so you havent had any bad experiances with eco earth then ? read alot of people complaining about it ?


No I've had no problems with it just make sure you leave if a while with the leaf litter and arthropods and it breaks down to really nice soil. It does tend to hold a lot of water for the first six months then its fine after that.


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## calandlew (Jun 17, 2013)

hi stu thanks for the info on those beasties , have tryed to read all i can on darts and havent came across them before ? doesnt promote alot of confidence in myself that common problems that may occur arent readily available in the public domain , unless you know exactly what your looking for . thank you for letting me know about these beasties , i used to keep tarantulas and to be fair id nuke all the substrate myself . If were trying to keep exotic pets , the responsible thing to do would be to do all we can to increase the probability of keeping healthy animals id presume . Thanks again .


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## calandlew (Jun 17, 2013)

cheers budha , the plan was to get the substrate in , plants in , and insects in for at least 6 wks to 8wks so it can establish , is that realistic timescale ?


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## buddah (Dec 23, 2009)

calandlew said:


> cheers budha , the plan was to get the substrate in , plants in , and insects in for at least 6 wks to 8wks so it can establish , is that realistic timescale ?


Yeah I've put my occupants in around 3 weeks after I've planted it up but have the soil in around two weeks previous to the plants going in. Some people leave it quite a while to make sure you get the planting right and give plants time to establish but I've always found the plants to establish in two to 3 weeks no problem.


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## frogreapertattoo (Dec 10, 2011)

*frognewbie*

Taking in all the stuff like a sponge on the run up to getting some darts in the not to distant future .....when i feel i have gained enough knowlage ...:jump:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I make my dart substrate up 25 litres at a time in a big brewers bucket, then just keep it until I need it. By which point the springs and dwarf woodlice are fully established in it when I do come to use it.

Apart from that I now use about 50:50 tree fern to orchid bark, this is pretty much the mix I use Setting Up Your First Planted Dart Frog Vivarium. I don't use eco-earth as I find it retains too much moisture and is prone to rotting if it stays too wet for too long.

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

calandlew said:


> hi stu thanks for the info on those beasties , have tryed to read all i can on darts and havent came across them before ? doesnt promote alot of confidence in myself that common problems that may occur arent readily available in the public domain , unless you know exactly what your looking for . thank you for letting me know about these beasties , i used to keep tarantulas and to be fair id nuke all the substrate myself . If were trying to keep exotic pets , the responsible thing to do would be to do all we can to increase the probability of keeping healthy animals id presume . Thanks again .


To be utterly honest, I wasn't aware of the nemertean issue till Stu raised it a while ago- as he rightly pointed out, it's not really an issue for me with mostly larger frogs that generally don't actually eat springtails- they are just part of the clean-up crew, in my vivs. For dart keepers, the priorities are obviouly different. On the eccoearth front, it's fine as part of a wider mix- it's when it's used on it's own that people get problems.


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## calandlew (Jun 17, 2013)

cheers ron , so i u were i and were gaveing one tank measureing 45x45x45 and planning to keep 2-3 maximum azureus , what would you use ?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

calandlew said:


> cheers ron , so i u were i and were gaveing one tank measureing 45x45x45 and planning to keep 2-3 maximum azureus , what would you use ?


As we both know, I don't keep darts at all. For terrestrial frogs generally, I would use a mix of organic, fertiliser-free planting compost, orchid bark, ecco earth and (in this case nuked) leafmould, from a clean, pesticide-free wood. As mentioned above, if you are using a leca base, you will need a barrior between the drainage layer and the soil; weed mat works fine, but so does ordinary nylon net curtain, available as off-cuts for pennies.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

calandlew said:


> hi stu thanks for the info on those beasties , have tryed to read all i can on darts and havent came across them before ? doesnt promote alot of confidence in myself that common problems that may occur arent readily available in the public domain , unless you know exactly what your looking for . thank you for letting me know about these beasties , i used to keep tarantulas and to be fair id nuke all the substrate myself . If were trying to keep exotic pets , the responsible thing to do would be to do all we can to increase the probability of keeping healthy animals id presume . Thanks again .


Buddy can we have your name please it's so difficult talking without first names.

Mate we spent nearly two years trying to weigh it all up before keeping frogs,how ever hard one tries to be armed with all the info out there I think most will fall short. this is not because you haven't tried hard enough,but simply because there are so many different facets to this hobby. Water/ health/ plants/viv design/ diet/ feeder culturing/plants/placement there of/ background design/issues relating to a particulr species/rearing/ and so on. 

Not only this ,but because of all of our different circumstances...I call 'em the variables:whistling2: my methods might not work for you,so on every level do your utter best,but never feel you are not doing enough,because you have not heard of something before,the subject is just too complex. Ask questions here and elsewhere,pool that knowledge and choose what you think to be best for you. 

So confidence back to where it should be,:2thumb:

2 azzies in a 45 mate, this is my opinion galvanised from rearing a good few young tincs up to around a year old. tincs need space and will suppress each other if not given enough space. 


good luck

Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

soundstounite said:


> Buddy can we have your name please it's so difficult talking without first names.
> 
> Mate we spent nearly two years trying to weigh it all up before keeping frogs,how ever hard one tries to be armed with all the info out there I think most will fall short. this is not because you haven't tried hard enough,but simply because there are so many different facets to this hobby. Water/ health/ plants/viv design/ diet/ feeder culturing/plants/placement there of/ background design/issues relating to a particulr species/rearing/ and so on.
> 
> ...


Agreed, my Alanis did just that when I had them in a 40cm cube. Moved them to a bigger viv and peace returned. : victory:

Tincs I would recommend nothing smaller than a 60x40x40 to be honest.

Ade


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