# pygmy rattlesnakes?



## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

ok so i figure these will be dwa, my real question is would they make a suitable first dwa sp? I dont really have any interest in owning any other dwa animals in the slightest, well thats a lie bush viper are so beautiful! and full size rattlers but i wouldn't dream of keeping either with out years of experience. So could a pygmy rattler work for a first dwa snake? Id love to get one get a bit of experience then build up a breeding project, rattlesnakes absolutely fascinate me. anyone got any good reading material on husbandry of pygmy rattlers they can point me towards?
thanks for your time.
Nathan


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

ermgravy said:


> ok so i figure these will be dwa, my real question is would they make a suitable first dwa sp? I dont really have any interest in owning any other dwa animals in the slightest, well thats a lie bush viper are so beautiful! and full size rattlers but i wouldn't dream of keeping either with out years of experience. So could a pygmy rattler work for a first dwa snake? Id love to get one get a bit of experience then build up a breeding project, rattlesnakes absolutely fascinate me. anyone got any good reading material on husbandry of pygmy rattlers they can point me towards?
> thanks for your time.
> Nathan


I can only give a limited amount of input as I have only owned one for a few years but I have caught close to a dozen in the wild. The thing with Sistrurus miliarus is that they can be very docile and timid, or they can be absolute atrocities and snappy, biting vicious little creatures. It WAS my 1st venomous snake, but I also had quite a bit of experience with larger and more aggressive species before that. If you get one, try to find one that is tame that can be verified or the one selling it will let you inspect it for yourself.

As they are a very small species, they happen to be very flexible and I was ALMOST bitten twice WHILE holding it behind the head, so I recommend a "hook and tail" or similar method. On a lighter note they are very beautiful snakes, but IMO, the "Red" Carolina Pygmys (Sistrurus miliarus miliarus) are the most attractive. I owned a Dusky (Sistrurus miliarus barbouri). Western/Strecker's Pygmys are the lightest of the 3 sub-species, usually bearing tan and brown with some mottling , but sometimes have a stunning baby-blue overall. There is also a Mexican species, S. ravus and more northernly distibuted Massassauga (Sistrurus catenatus) which seldomly gets over 3 feet.

Then I went ahead and just pasted some important info in quotes that you may find useful which I thought seemed fairly important: 

"Since this species in unable to produce much venom, it is unlikely that it is able to deliver a fatal bite to a human adult. Brimley (1942) wrote that although it was too small to be really dangerous, its bite "will give the victim quite an unpleasant time for several days." However, bites involving children have resulted in prolonged hospitalization and there are also reports of necrosis."

"These snakes produce venom that is strongly hemorrhagic and tissue toxic, but devoid of any neurotoxins (Ernst, 1992; Van Mierop, 1976). It is somewhat different in that it contains substantial amounts of serotonin and related tryptamine compounds (Welsh, 1967). Antivenin does not appear to be effective in the treatment of these bites, although CroFab does seem to do a better job than ACP, at least in some animal models."

If i'm not mistaken, isn't "tryptamine" the same chemical found in turkey that makes you tired?? And isn't it ODD that serotonin is essential to healthy living,, but it found in this snake's venom?


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

No offense & I apologise if I am wrong but I have to admit I can see why they think you are a troll by the name of James... you write exactly the same.

Unfortunately for you if it is untrue no one will believe you when all you say is.... "Just accept me as an equal, that is all that matters."

I know people shouldn't have to 'prove' themselves but your handing out pretty detailed advise & it would be nice to know that someone real is writing it rather than a bored lonely 16 year old. Perhaps just one picture? If you have been keeping for as long as you say you have you should have a hoard of them!

And if you don't want to then don't get upset when people accuse you of being a phantom because they are sick of being stalked & plagued with this lad called James (and others) on any forums he can find.


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Owzy said:


> No offense & I apologise if I am wrong but I have to admit I can see why they think you are a troll by the name of James... you write exactly the same.
> 
> Unfortunately for you if it is untrue no one will believe you when all you say is.... "Just accept me as an equal, that is all that matters."
> 
> ...


Ok, check this out, since you want to talk about trolling... Here's some advice do some research on me before you start talking out your *SS. I have posted several pictures, my anaconda included. Check my posts, read the threads and TRY....just TRY knowing what you are talking about before you hit that keyboard. Nothing irritates me more than people who talk before they even READ the information that is/has already been present. Open your eyes, use your search function and PAY ATTENTION. I am not a 16 year old Englishmen, I am a 29 year old American who does not want to hear stupid nonsense, prejudiced viewpoints, other people's OBSESSIONS with former members or assuming. When you ASSUME, you make an *ss out of U and ME. Any more stupid ******** questions?

I apologize if I was slightly aggressive....I am drinking and seriously sick and tired of people calling me "James"....I don't even LIKE the name James and IF my name was James I wouldn't tell people, they would know me as Jim or Jimmy or J-DOGG or something a little more hardcore than "James". It just REALLY grinded my gears cuz I JUST got done posting pictures and here you go spurting stupidity before you knew what you were talking about. I have EX-girlfriends for that if I want it, now cut the sh*t and talk about Reptiles cuz that's why I'm here or leave me alone.

Also, how would I have caught Rattlesnakes in the WILD if I wasn't American? No offense and I apologize for getting aggravated.

The topic is "Pygmy Rattlers"....you may begin


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Lol you may not be James but even if your not no one will listen to you now as you have just shown your clearly slightly insane. Oh and if you behave like this when your drinking... stop drinking would be my suggestion.

By the way I have caught rattlers in the wild and I am not even slightly American, its called going on holiday to Canada genius.


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## dunny1 (Feb 2, 2009)

*lol*

def sounds like james or should i say j-dogg mintram.


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Owzy said:


> Lol you may not be James but even if your not no one will listen to you now as you have just shown your clearly slightly insane. Oh and if you behave like this when your drinking... stop drinking would be my suggestion.
> 
> By the way I have caught rattlers in the wild and I am not even slightly American, its called going on holiday to Canada genius.



You know what, My N*gga, I've had enough of your b*llsh*t. Go cry to a Moderator and when they tell you "He's NOT JAMES" , I'll be accepting your apology. This conversation is OVER.


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Victor Creed said:


> You know what, My N*gga, I've had enough of your b*llsh*t. Go cry to a Moderator and when they tell you "He's NOT JAMES" , I'll be accepting your apology. This conversation is OVER.


Go put on your xmen costume, get one of those numerous venomous and take a picture. Until you do that rather than waste my time with mods I'll just skip your increasingly strange posts.


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## dunny1 (Feb 2, 2009)

*ha*

that is 100 percent mintram ive went flicked through all the posts he's put up theres no mistaking minty. james if u were a chameleon ud get eaten. cause ur camouflage is shit.


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

dunny1 said:


> that is 100 percent mintram ive went flicked through all the posts he's put up theres no mistaking minty. james if u were a chameleon ud get eaten. cause ur camouflage is shit.


If it is then his use of the N word above (which I feel is 100% inappropriate on this forum irregaurdless of my, his or anyone's ethnicity) is probably one of the most pathetic things he has ever done. Does he think if he says that it would convince me its definitely not a chubby white kid from England....


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## Agkistrodon (Dec 12, 2008)

ermgravy said:


> ok so i figure these will be dwa, my real question is would they make a suitable first dwa sp? I dont really have any interest in owning any other dwa animals in the slightest, well thats a lie bush viper are so beautiful! and full size rattlers but i wouldn't dream of keeping either with out years of experience. So could a pygmy rattler work for a first dwa snake? Id love to get one get a bit of experience then build up a breeding project, rattlesnakes absolutely fascinate me. anyone got any good reading material on husbandry of pygmy rattlers they can point me towards?
> thanks for your time.
> Nathan


Maybe we could get this thread back on topic...? I personally couldn't see any reason why anyone would just have to start tearing into Victor (I thought his advice seemed pretty sound) but ermgravy is asking for information about a venomous snake that he would like to keep and it'd probably be good idea if we gave him that to read through as opposed to just a page full of flaming - after all, someone's experiences could be the difference between the correct first venomous or incorrect for him - and that could be the difference between a serious accident and safety.

I used to keep a pair of dusky pygmies (s.m.barbouri), and I think you've made a decent choice as a starter tbh - I never really had any issues. In my experience, they're a good natured, manageable-sized snake. My male hooked like a dream, no problems whatsoever, however my female was a little more tricky, mainly down to a wierd weight distribution - she was HUGE for a pygmy, nearly 32" long and THICK. A lot of times I'd actually double-hook her just so she could balance a bit better, and when I started doing that it became much easier. I wouldn't recommend hooking and tailing personally - they're easily liftable with just one hook, and while these guy's don't have the explosive power that some of the bigger rattlers and gaboons and whatnot have, from feeding responses I know that they can be somewhat unpredictable strikers and are lightning quick and very accurate even over their own tail.

Never had any problems getting them to eat or anything, I'd seperate the male into a really useful box and they'd both strike feed on defrost, envenomating and then eating the "dead" prey off the ground. The female would bite and seek out her prey pretty quickly, whereas the male would faff around with it a LOT (at one point I waited for an hour for him to find and swallow a mouse that he'd bitten).

The one thing I did find is they seem to be very curious little snakes - they'd always extend themselves far off the ground to get a closer look at me whenever I went into their enclosure and when handling them on the floor or anything like that they didn't do the typical "snake thing" of bolting towards available cover - they'd move around and explore and check out everything interesting around them. Of course this could be dangerous as they seem to become so absolutely rapt with whatever they were exploring they'd be quite easy to surprise - they didn't seem to really have any fear of me at all until they got close enough to realise I was alive, and big, and therefore a potential predator, and they didn't have a problem with trying to get close enough, so be wary of that.

Other than that really there's not a whole lot more to say - as I've said, they seem to be relatively even tempered, simple to handle snakes, but obviously they are potentially fatal and the "even temperedness" of them is purely situational - I did have several situations where I found myself quite surprised, where I'd open the enclosure and the female would, upon seeing me, instantly throw three or four strikes towards my face. It was rare, but it's something you have to watch out for as it caught me by surprise even after owning them for nine months - luckily I kept myself at a safe distance. My male sometimes seemed so calm that it almost seemed like you could freehandle him (not that I did, or ever thought about it!) but then catch him on a bad day and he'd be all fangs and rattling.

I don't have a great deal of resources, but I always found venomousreptiles to be a good website to use, particularly this article: Captive Care & Breeding of the Red Pigmy it's in relation to the red pygmy, but a lot of things in it can be applied to duskies as well. Hope that helps - if you had any more questions I'd be more than willing to offer my two cents, and I'm sure I'm not the only person on here who's kept pygmies before. I also kept variable bush vipers for a short period of time as well, so I could pass on my experiences with those too as well if you were looking into them, although I'd recommend playing about with the pygmies a bit before keeping Atheris - I always found them a little more tricky to handle than most arboreal vipers, being that they seem to have a strong ability to climb but with a little bit less stability than my other arboreal, eyelash vipers. In fact, you're on the right track with pygmies IMO - the only way I can really describe Atheris handling is that they're built like and move like arboreal pygmy rattlers - secure in the trees but occasionally liable to play pendulum with your hook and fall about a bit.

Hope this helps!


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## dunny1 (Feb 2, 2009)

*true*

yeah ur right owzy his use of the n word was totally uncalled for. that should be a warning if u ask me. no racial slang allowed


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## Agkistrodon (Dec 12, 2008)

dunny1 said:


> yeah ur right owzy his use of the n word was totally uncalled for. that should be a warning if u ask me. no racial slang allowed


Report him if it bothers you that much? Let's get back to pygmies. So ermgravy, when are you planning on picking the pygmies up? Have you handled much in the way of venomous before?


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Agkistrodon said:


> Report him if it bothers you that much? Let's get back to pygmies. So ermgravy, when are you planning on picking the pygmies up? Have you handled much in the way of venomous before?


Mate I hate topics going wayward but it was clear from the op's post he has barely any knowledge of DWA animals, and at that stage you are more inclined to believe what you read without question, hence my concern this is a 16 year old troll regurgitating knowledge he has either found on the internet, seen on TV or just made up. Your information however definitely does come from experience and is not just googled. 

I don't know if you read his first post over but the op didn't know if they were DWA so I doubt he will be picking any up soon. (Not being nasty here just answering your last question.) That's unless he decides to forget the paperwork & just crack on... but who would do something like that huh :whistling2:

Oh and unless his parents were massive Xmen fans I doubt his name is Victor... or Creed. That is the name of Sabretooth from it. : victory:

Anyway like you say enough off topic, I just wanted to explain why there was the outburst from me earlier. If he is real I will happily admit I was wrong.


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

Agkistrodon; thanks mate ur a complete star! 

i only ask because ive been offered them 6 times now and im defo not qualified, if i wanted them that bad i would have them.... already, id just rather do my research first. 

im from carolina originally so carolina flavor could be a nice touch in that respect. but really i just want to hear some of peoples experiences with them, and to get my head into some USEFUL reading material and work out if this sp could be a good idea for me. 

as ive said to Agkistrodon in a pm this is earlly stages of research im not looking to jump into owning a potentially very dangerous animal, i want to research it, speak to people and take even maybe a couple of years over my final verdict on this idea. im just interested in rattlers they are not like other snakes... 

the flame war is can i say ridiculous how old are yall? it was ok to a point but cheers for doing your best to get the thread closed.... if your not a mod? report the post, thats ur only duty as a forum member and certainly not to create the mess u have on this thread. if any mods do chance by this please can i get a clean up crew on all but the op and Agkistrodon 1st post? oh and this last paragraph? (i pay i cookies!) :flrt:


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

ermgravy said:


> Agkistrodon; thanks mate ur a complete star!
> 
> i only ask because ive been offered them 6 times now and im defo not qualified, if i wanted them that bad i would have them.... already, id just rather do my research first.
> 
> ...


That's fine mate but it was clear from your first post you have no idea what your doing so I thought I would call out the possible liar so you didn't listen to advise that could be written by someone who has less experience with venomous than you, that is, less than zero. 

Perhaps I got carried away but your new to the forum so you don't understand how much this site gets plagued by fakes & liars... and this is RFUK... every thread goes off topic : victory:


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

Owzy said:


> That's fine mate but it was clear from your first post you have no idea what your doing so I thought I would call out the possible liar so you didn't listen to advise that could be written by someone who has less experience with venomous than you, that is, less than zero.
> 
> Perhaps I got carried away but your new to the forum so you don't understand how much this site gets plagued by fakes & liars... and this is RFUK... every thread goes off topic : victory:


im hardly new nor do i not know wahgwan.... but how are you any better than said poster if all ur accusations are indeed true? there is no need to make posts of that nature in a thread ur not the op of? MY choice on my thread.... 

ive lurked here for a long while mate longer than ive held an account for years. ive been a very active forum poster on mfk and some other huge forums, u always will get scrub replys but to call someone out when you your self make reference to taking adders from the wild with out license? and u think you deserve the time of day? if i where mod guess whos ip addy gets sent to defra the troll or the guy who admits breaking the law?


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

ermgravy said:


> im hardly new nor do i not know wahgwan.... but how are you any better than said poster if all ur accusations are indeed true? there is no need to make posts of that nature in a thread ur not the op of? MY choice on my thread....
> 
> ive lurked here for a long while mate longer than ive held an account for years. ive been a very active forum poster on mfk and some other huge forums, u always will get scrub replys but to call someone out when you your self make reference to taking adders from the wild with out license? and u think you deserve the time of day? if i where mod guess whos ip addy gets sent to defra the troll or the guy who admits breaking the law?


You have proved my point for me, as I pointed out on the other post, you clearly don't have a clue, or much of an IQ it seems.


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

Owzy said:


> You have proved my point for me, as I pointed out on the other post, you clearly don't have a clue, or much of an IQ it seems.


how do you work that out? ive been in court over a pic posted on a forum mate so have first hand experiance of forum posts being taking the wrong why but how is it me that needs the IQ check? You ruffled my feathers then posted something that could easily be missintreperated, and if u did mean you went to take pics of adders fair one, but how would taking pics of a wild venomous snake or practising your handiling on one really help a newbie? i didnt realise dwa keeping was such a light hearted affair? few adder pics and you get ya license is it? that last paragraph i write in good jehst, im just trying to settle the air and explain why i snapped to that conclusion... if you want to continue this petty feud go ahead but i cant be fridged.... im dyslexic, i write in txt type and have a shocking keyboard and occasionally miss the odd letter hardly need an iq check mate based on that or do i?


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

ermgravy said:


> how do you work that out? ive been in court over a pic posted on a forum mate so have first hand experiance of forum posts being taking the wrong why but how is it me that needs the IQ check? You ruffled my feathers then posted something that could easily be missintreperated, and if u did mean you went to take pics of adders fair one, but how would taking pics of a wild venomous snake or practising your handiling on one really help a newbie? i didnt realise dwa keeping was such a light hearted affair? few adder pics and you get ya license is it? that last paragraph i write in good jehst, im just trying to settle the air and explain why i snapped to that conclusion... if you want to continue this petty feud go ahead but i cant be fridged.... im dyslexic, i write in txt type and have a shocking keyboard and occasionally miss the odd letter hardly need an iq check mate based on that or do i?


No I know very clever people who can't type, it was what you said not the way you said it.

And that is exactly what I meant yes, I found them, practiced a small amount of handling, took pictures of them then let them go. I was safe about it and have never revealed my adder site to anyone but one very trusted friend. No one likes argument and it seems we both have some backtracking to do, which brings me nicely onto Victor....

I have been informed by a mate you in fact a real person so I am sorry. Happily admit I am wrong... it is very strange how similar your writing & forum behavior is to the lad I was accusing you of being is though, and he has done it many times before.. but that's no excuse. Hope you can forgive my aggressiveness. 

Though you are a bit nuts whoever you are : victory:


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## Agkistrodon (Dec 12, 2008)

Fair do's. One thing I would definitely recommend, ermgravy, is finding yourself a mentor - someone who's more experienced than you and preferably has been doing it a while who can teach you how to handle venomous snakes. It's a lot better doing it that way rather than keeping at home and teaching yourself as it takes a lot of the risk out of it - you have to handle the snake in a couple of hourly mentoring sessions a week and don't have the potential responsibility of having to deal with it all the time. And if you mess up, there's someone there to pull your ass out of the fire. I'll be perfectly honest - as long as you don't have any kind of issues with your hand, wrist, and get-the-hell-away-from-those-fangs reflexes, learning to handle a pygmy rattlesnake won't be THAT hard - however you will undoubtedly make mistakes learning, and it's a lot better to have someone there who's more experienced than you to help you recover from those mistakes without injury than risk it yourself at home.

Anyways, while we're talking about them, thought I'd post up some pictures of my duskies:










Good example of the curiosity I was talking about here!:









And an extreme closeup:


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

:flrt: its the intelligence curiosity that is the real attraction with rattlers over over snakes for me. 

tank you for posting the pics! 

can i just ask, how would one seriously go about looking to fina a mentor? knowing this forums response to most dwa posts im guessing pming random members is defo the wrong approach so is there any advise anyone can offer to this front? are there course or something one could pay to attend? i figure if i put the expense out first someone may be more inclined to take me serious in a conversation about being mentored? 

thanks again dude!


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Owzy said:


> No I know very clever people who can't type, it was what you said not the way you said it.
> 
> And that is exactly what I meant yes, I found them, practiced a small amount of handling, took pictures of them then let them go. I was safe about it and have never revealed my adder site to anyone but one very trusted friend. No one likes argument and it seems we both have some backtracking to do, which brings me nicely onto Victor....
> 
> ...


I accept your apology and appreciate a person willing to admit when they are wrong, as it does not contrary to popular belief make you lose face, but just the opposite, it shows maturity, respect (self and others), willingness to change, and an overall ability to make yourself a better person on a consistent basis. This is a prime component in the formula for growth.

I too apologize for my drunken comments last night, as it undoubtedly got out of hand and I'm sorry, I was angry and the alcohol magnified it even more so. I also understand using the street slang Americans are used to on a foreign forum may have provoked some inqueries in regards to it, so I can explain if anyone was offended by it, I don't use that word in a deragatory form, and generally in the U.S., close friends use it as a way to show brotherly love to one another, however it also comes out at other times, particularly around drunken people. I was simply raised around a lot of black, puerto rican and mixed ethnicities who considered me a "brutha". Either way, I agree as I sit here sober and realize it was not appropriate for a website, so if the infraction does head my way, I will be a man and accept it and deal with it.

I apologize again to the original poster, I hope you decide to keep post #2 as it was totally intended to help you, possibly save some of your appendages ;0 and I would delete my own posts if I could besides my initial one. I just wanted to get this final post out of the way, and now that everyone knows I am not "James", hopefully we can all be friends, talk about reptiles and drink Irish Whiskey together


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

eh it all went a bit haywire yest... lets just forget bout that bit of the thread..... :2thumb:


i do appreciate your views and comments victor i didnt mean to come across like that at all.


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

ermgravy said:


> eh it all went a bit haywire yest... lets just forget bout that bit of the thread..... :2thumb:
> 
> 
> i do appreciate your views and comments victor i didnt mean to come across like that at all.



I took no offense at all , My friend as we WERE the ones who desecrated your respectable thread. I hope you excel with your pygmies as they are indeed an amazing species to own.
May you be careful and God-willing, safe-handling and venom-free.

@ Agkistrodon - they are gorgeous specimens. Are they barbouri or streckeri? The pictures are rather deceiving but for some reason my mind is telling me they are large for Pygmies. My GOD, you just reminded me of how much I miss keeping Pit Vipers *sighs*


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## Herpalist (Jun 17, 2009)

Pigs are great little snakes. I find that their crap on a hook though. Dont seem to know how to hang on...lol. I have no intention of handling it to much anywayz.

Heres a pic of my unsexed Carolina that I recently picked up.


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## Agkistrodon (Dec 12, 2008)

Always like the carolinas, that's a pretttty snake. Whats his temperament like? I agree with you about the crap on the hook thing, the female was so big her weight balance was all off and she'd slip about and the male had about one balance point on him and fifty-odd off centre bits.


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## Herpalist (Jun 17, 2009)

Agkistrodon said:


> Always like the carolinas, that's a pretttty snake. Whats his temperament like?


Seems steady enough in that it does not lunge at me or anything like that. Still, it wont get the chance too either if I can help it..lol. A real rubbish bin for food too. Never refuses.


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## nick19 (Jun 13, 2010)

Owzy said:


> If it is then his use of the N word above (which I feel is 100% inappropriate on this forum irregaurdless of my, his or anyone's ethnicity) is probably one of the most pathetic things he has ever done. Does he think if he says that it would convince me its definitely not a chubby white kid from England....


hay theres no need to bring england in to this we aint all twats just the odd 1 so your coment about the uk is unapropreat
sorry about spellings


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

nick19 said:


> hay theres no need to bring england in to this we aint all twats just the odd 1 so your coment about the uk is unapropreat
> sorry about spellings


Lol what are you on about u nutter.. I am born & bred in England.

Think you have misunderstood what was going on completely but it does not matter its all over now.

Spelling isn't important IMO on forums as long as what you are writing can be understood though I have to say your spelling of inappropriate is pretty funky.


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

Anyway.. back on topic..

These are simply the most stunning species of snake in the world.. My room is ready now, and the DWA license is easy enough to get when I do get them. I must have been talking about these beauties for ... well certainly since I got back from the States in 2004!!


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## nick19 (Jun 13, 2010)

Owzy said:


> Lol what are you on about u nutter.. I am born & bred in England.
> 
> Think you have misunderstood what was going on completely but it does not matter its all over now.
> 
> Spelling isn't important IMO on forums as long as what you are writing can be understood though I have to say your spelling of inappropriate is pretty funky.


lol my mistake sorry :blush:


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