# garra rufa fish spa treatment recomendation



## ginna (Jun 2, 2009)

it is great , the little fish eat all the dead skin off your feet and leave your feet feeling really refreshed ... it is well worth it ... just thought i would post it in the fish section seing as they are fish 

anyone else had it done ... i had mine done at the yoko spa in bury market :2thumb:


here is me having it done


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

I bet the fish loved it....


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## ginna (Jun 2, 2009)

hippyhaplos said:


> I bet the fish loved it....



well they get all the nutrients out of ya dead skin so i bet they did


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

clever
these things should be banned
if you have a tiny cut, you've got any problems everybody else with a tiny cut had.. sti's, aids etc
it's just not right, and you probably paid a bomb for it
stupid places


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## ginna (Jun 2, 2009)

spinnin_tom said:


> clever
> these things should be banned
> if you have a tiny cut, you've got any problems everybody else with a tiny cut had.. sti's, aids etc
> it's just not right, and you probably paid a bomb for it
> stupid places


number one you have to fill in a questionaire asking if you have any diseases that can be passed like that 

number two they thoroughly check your feet before you put them near the fish

and finaly number three it was a tenner for 15 mins and 15 quid for half an hour ...

so really everything you just said was wrong :whip:

why whenever i see a post by you you are moaning or slating something off ... CHEER UP.


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

I really wanna try one of these!! Got shocking amounts of dead skin on my feet  lol

:no1:


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

ginna said:


> number one you have to fill in a questionaire asking if you have any diseases that can be passed like that
> 
> number two they thoroughly check your feet before you put them near the fish
> 
> ...


number one- people lie
number two- i said small cut, like really small, lots will go unnoticed
number three- that is damn expensive for something you could do with an emery board

and i'm quite a pessimistic person, can't help that one


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## ginna (Jun 2, 2009)

nickcradd067 said:


> I really wanna try one of these!! Got shocking amounts of dead skin on my feet  lol
> 
> :no1:


ha they do a considerably good job in 15 mins imagine what they can do in half an hour


spinnin_tom said:


> number one- people lie
> number two- i said small cut, like really small, lots will go unnoticed
> number three- that is damn expensive for something you could do with an emery board
> 
> and i'm quite a pessimistic person, can't help that one


what have you to be pessimistic about your only what 15? and its not dear considering people will pay 20 quid for a pedicure


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## Moogloo (Mar 15, 2010)

Well... you did post it here, its like waving a bloody red rag at a bull isnt it. If you ever read any other posts, you'd have found this a very predicteable reaction.

If there was out and out risk to people, spas wouldnt be allowed, because its new, no problms have occured, they probably will, if it doesnt get banned on ethical reasons first, I have no doubt it is just a fad and will soon be banned, leading to mass cull of garra rufa or them being dumped in rivers.

There is no proof in the corrct nutrients for Garra Rufa being in the scummy skin off people feet, they are naturally algae eaters and get their protein from the microscopic lifeforms that live amongst the algae... there is no way that in the wild, Garra Rufa need human skin to survive or thrive.

However, if not fed/not fed enough/not fed the correct diet, they will scavange whatever they can to survive, eg - humans dead skin. This doesnt make it a necessary part of the fish's diet or mean that it will sustain them for long.

Too many people with no knowleage of fish go for this treatment and worse still, too many people setting up for this treatment with no knowleage of fish.

You wouldnt get people being 'allowed' to get a DWA license if they never kept animals before, people wouldnt get medical licenses without qualifications and experience.... yet people can set up a treatment involving both the health and safety of their customers and the welfare of the fish that they use....without any relevant qualifications or licenses!

And you wonder why people get hacked off at uninformed posts by people who dont understand, dont want to understand and are just plain rude.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

ginna said:


> what have you to be pessimistic about your only what 15? and its not dear considering people will pay 20 quid for a pedicure


 
for a start, why would you want to have a "pedicure" 
have you turned meterosexual or something ahahahaha

and being pessimistic doesn't come with age, it's just an attitude to life, i like it, i can be optimistic when i need to, but these stupid fish spas are stupid as hell, they are unhygenic and expensive

and i'd rather spend 20 quid on a spider 

and moogloo- i think something like 45 us states banned it, they found flaws and reasons it's unhygenic =]


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## Moogloo (Mar 15, 2010)

Now now Mr ST, play nice!!

TBH I dont care what happens to people, if they are stupid enough to follow the crowd like the rest of the sheep and go stick there feet in tubs to be chewed on by feet without even a thought to anything other than their own vanity...well...tbh they deserve to get whatever might end up going around like Fish TB or something...

Im not sympathetic to people, for the sake of the fish, its just sick.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

Moogloo said:


> Now now Mr ST, play nice!!
> 
> TBH I dont care what happens to people, if they are stupid enough to follow the crowd like the rest of the sheep and go stick there feet in tubs to be chewed on by feet without even a thought to anything other than their own vanity...well...tbh they deserve to get whatever might end up going around like Fish TB or something...
> 
> Im not sympathetic to people, for the sake of the fish, its just sick.


 
i suppose i'm Mr ST  ?
and quite right, if people follow want to follow the crowds, go for it.. but it should be outlawed in my opinion.
like you said, it's not beneficial to the fish, they don't need. also, the place near me doesn't actually feed the fish, i asked them.. they use piddly little external filters, not on a sump and the fish aren't supplemented with proper food.


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## ginna (Jun 2, 2009)

spinnin_tom said:


> i suppose i'm Mr ST  ?
> and quite right, if people follow want to follow the crowds, go for it.. but it should be outlawed in my opinion.
> like you said, it's not beneficial to the fish, they don't need. also, the place near me doesn't actually feed the fish, i asked them.. they use piddly little external filters, not on a sump and the fish aren't supplemented with proper food.


the place where i went i was really curious so i asked what they were ( i missed the big sign on the wall saying gurra rufa fish) and she said that they were fed on a suplimented diet on a night and weekends 

also there were large sumps in the seating


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

I'm not being funny.... but you look about 12, and are a male....

Is dry skin really that much of a problem in your life?


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## ginna (Jun 2, 2009)

hippyhaplos said:


> I'm not being funny.... but you look about 12, and are a male....
> 
> Is dry skin really that much of a problem in your life?


thankyou im 16 ¬.¬ and what is everyones problem with me wanting to have the dry skin taken from under my feet ... just because i am a man...


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

ginna said:


> thankyou im 16 ¬.¬ and what is everyones problem with me wanting to have the dry skin taken from under my feet ... just because i am a man...


But why?

I have a problem with everyone doing it..... it's fundamentally wrong.


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## ginna (Jun 2, 2009)

hippyhaplos said:


> But why?
> 
> I have a problem with everyone doing it..... it's fundamentally wrong.


i didnt know it was such a big thing ... i was the only person in the whole spa ... i just thought it was new and i would try it and see ...


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

I dont see why everyone is going off on one about this!? Why do people seem adament that it *WILL* be banned?!? People go on about cuts transmitting disease however the water will dilute any pathogens to such low concentrations that they would be harmless. Are they going to ban the swimming baths next cos they will spread disease??

People on this forum just abuse it sometimes and use it to put other people down and bitch and moan all the time. This thread was clearly just a bit of light-hearted fun so people should just lighten up a bit.


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

nickcradd067 said:


> I dont see why everyone is going off on one about this!? Why do people seem adament that it *WILL* be banned?!? People go on about cuts transmitting disease however the water will dilute any pathogens to such low concentrations that they would be harmless. Are they going to ban the swimming baths next cos they will spread disease??
> 
> People on this forum just abuse it sometimes and use it to put other people down and bitch and moan all the time. This thread was clearly just a bit of light-hearted fun so people should just lighten up a bit.


I couldn't care less about the hygeine aspect of it.

Just an afterthought for the fish once in a while would be nice....


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## ginna (Jun 2, 2009)

hippyhaplos said:


> I couldn't care less about the hygeine aspect of it.
> 
> Just an afterthought for the fish once in a while would be nice....


just think of all the goldfish that are neglected ... do you want to ban goldfish....

the spa where i was all the fish were being monitored and looked in nice condition ...they also had adequate filtration and aeration too so where is the harm ... they were also fed on an other diet on the side ... its not like they were feeding them cyanide


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

ginna said:


> just think of all the goldfish that are neglected ... do you want to ban goldfish....
> 
> the spa where i was all the fish were being monitored and looked in nice condition ...they also had adequate filtration and aeration too so where is the harm ... they were also fed on an other diet on the side ... its not like they were feeding them cyanide


goldfish are sold as pets, people are advised to put them in large, filtered tanks.. not to be put in overstcoked tanks, that have peoples' feet in them


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

ginna said:


> just think of all the goldfish that are neglected ... do you want to ban goldfish....
> 
> the spa where i was all the fish were being monitored and looked in nice condition ...they also had adequate filtration and aeration too so where is the harm ... they were also fed on an other diet on the side ... its not like they were feeding them cyanide


Ban goldfish? no. Godfish bowls and inadequate housing? yes.

I'd sooner eat cynaide than some persons manky feet.

I really don't think they get fed adequately.... they're grazers.... little and often is what they need.... not occasional feedings with some feet inbetween.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

hippyhaplos said:


> Ban goldfish? no. Godfish bowls and inadequate housing? yes.
> 
> I'd sooner eat cynaide than some persons manky feet.
> 
> I really don't think they get fed adequately.... they're grazers.... little and often is what they need.... not occasional feedings with some feet inbetween.


 
agreed 
considering my "local" only feeds them feet O:
i don't know what cyanide or feet taste like, so i wouldn't be able to choose


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## ginna (Jun 2, 2009)

oh i give up trying to please some people no matter what anyone posts on here someone will find something to moan at ... in my opinion i beleive you all need to lighten up as if i knew it was such a problem do you think i would have gone in and then posted it on the forum if i knew ....


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

spinnin_tom said:


> agreed
> considering my "local" only feeds them feet O:
> i don't know what cyanide or feet taste like, so i wouldn't be able to choose


 You'd be doing well to remember what cyanide tastes like :whistling2:


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

The Garra ruffa fish do not eat the skin anyway they just chew it off the feet. These fish have been farmed specifically for this industry and are just behaving as they nauturally do. The shape of the mouth is a massive giveaway that this species is a grazer that will spend all its time in the wild nibbling rocks and logs in the hope of scraping off a bit of algae or other food. That is all it's doing in these spas. Just because humans are involved, doesn't mean the animal is being mistreated.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

ginna said:


> oh i give up trying to please some people no matter what anyone posts on here someone will find something to moan at ... in my opinion i beleive you all need to lighten up as if i knew it was such a problem do you think i would have gone in and then posted it on the forum if i knew ....


well not really
we don't care what you do, we can only advise you



hippyhaplos said:


> You'd be doing well to remember what cyanide tastes like :whistling2:


hmm, okay :lol2:


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## ginna (Jun 2, 2009)

spinnin_tom said:


> well not really
> we don't care what you do, we can only advise you
> 
> 
> ...


WELL YOU OBVIOUSLY DO SEING AS YOUR HAVING A GO AFTER!!!! I HAVE HAD IT DONE !!!!

so your going to advise me not to have it done after i have had it done ... no wonder im stressed ...


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## RoyalBlood (Jan 5, 2011)

This thread is hilarious :')

Im having it done to treat myself.

If the treatment was that disgusting and unhygenic and the fish were being horrifically mistreated, does anyone really think that so many of these places would excist or even be legal??

everywhere must have a licence for it and therefore understand the hygene aspects and know not to stick someone with mouldy athletes foot in the tub.. 
They also check your feed for cuts and wash your feet before you put them in the tub.

the places are probably open 9-5 and i dont imagine they are heaving...
Its not like the fish are just munching on mouldy feed all day and night.. i expect each individual fish only does about 2 hours of solid chewing everyday... and swims in a nice clean filtered tank by night.

Oh also, even a fish can probably think to the extent of: 'hmm had a bit too much dead skin today, ill just chill over this end of the tank while my mates carry on' 
I wonder if the fish would do it even if they didnt want to? lol


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

I would just like to offer my views on this 

Now the actual logical extreme of some things I have read are completely and utterly preposterouse stating that a slight cut can pass on aids etc etc etc is fine, but in fairness that does not make the logic of thses things should be banned great at all and nor should it be stereotyped into that kind of category at all! (common sense will say that if you did have a cut at all which you are likley to know about!) you would not do it. taking some of thses comments ot their logical extreme, I also have had this done I MUST also be an animal abusing git who should be banned from keeping animals....:whistling2:

You would think that it was common sense, just once can we at least have one friendly thread on this forum, I think sometimes when people are quick to jump on other people they need to have a look at their own care.

It is pretty scary when half the people advising us are even more clueless than ourselves.
Just saying what I know 

Preposterouse completely and utterly! 
lmao.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

What was the age of the fish? Garra Ruffa can reach 6 inches. How many 6 inch fish did you see? How long did the spa guarantee the life of the fish?

It's banned in many US states btw so questions like "if it was so bad why isn't illegal?" are a little naive.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

ginna said:


> the place where i went i was really curious so i asked what they were ( i missed the big sign on the wall saying gurra rufa fish) and she said that they were fed on a suplimented diet on a night and weekends
> 
> also there were large sumps in the seating


To be fair Ginna, it sounds like you've found a fairly responsible spa. Unfortunately lots aren't, there was a mobile one in my local shopping centre....can you imagine shipping those fish around everywhere? Blah. Not good.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> What was the age of the fish? Garra Ruffa can reach 6 inches. How many 6 inch fish did you see? How long did the spa guarantee the life of the fish?
> 
> It's banned in many US states btw so questions like "if it was so bad why isn't illegal?" are a little naive.


 
there we go 
that's the point i mead, i think 7/8 states banned it


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

don't...get...me...started!! :devil:

I think these places are generally, well, horrible. 

The transmission of disease, I think is a bit more of a problem than some people think, but probably a bit less of a problem than some would have you think. 

A lot of places use UV sterilisers, which is great, but if they're set up wrong (eg. with the wrong flow) they're not going to work. However, the amount of water diluting the problem may well compensate. But until someone with the relevant degree comes along and does a thorough study of this, we just don't know. (and I ain't got the relevant degree! lol)

However, the risk of fish TB getting passed on to a customer would be enough to put me off alone. Statistically, when you think how many hundreds of fish are in each spa, and how many spas there are, coupled with the way the fish are caught, handled and transported, I'd take a guess that it's only a matter or time before a case crops up somewhere. You could say the same of the ornamental fish trade, and most cases of humans catching fish tb in the uk have been staff of aquatics shops, because these are the people who come into contact with the water the most. (I can find the references, but I won't bother unless anyone is particularly interested?)

The welfare of the fish is another matter altogether. What pH do they need? Do they need cover (ie plants) to feel secure? Most fish do. What's their natural diet? I very much doubt it's feet! Max size? Are they reaching adulthood? Is there enough water volume for them?

I really think someone connected with animal welfare needs to stick their noses in on this one, and if these places are going to exist, make sure they look after the fish. There are too many unanswered questions at the moment.


To the op: I'm not having a dig at you! :2thumb: If you didn't know the potential risks and didn't know the fish are most likely being mistreated, there's not a lot you could do. The spas aren't exactly going to advertise it themselves!! lol
At least you know now and you can make an informed decision about whether or not you want to use one of these places again


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## MarcusF (May 9, 2010)

Something about it doesn't sit right with me. The fact that it's banned in some US states should tell us something.

I think it'll be a fad though and mainly used by the iSheep.


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

Morgan Freeman said:


> To be fair Ginna, it sounds like you've found a fairly responsible spa. Unfortunately lots aren't, there was a mobile one in my local shopping centre....can you imagine shipping those fish around everywhere? Blah. Not good.


To be fair though the mobile spas have filtration and aeration systems that are working 24 hours a day so shipping them will not harm the fish.



spinnin_tom said:


> there we go
> that's the point i mead, i think 7/8 states banned it


They are only banned in 14 states in the US, on grounds of questionable sanitation, and two of those are under review. Florida and Texas are amongst those states where the spas and banned - states where it is illegal to live with an unmarried partner, where it is illegal for the door of a public building to open inwards, where it is against the law for an unmarried woman to skydive on a sunday etc etc....

The fact that it is outlawed in the USA is absolutely no justification for that being the case here!


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

MarcusF said:


> I think it'll be a fad though and mainly used by the iSheep.



I'm not so sure sadly. A lot of places are claiming they can help with skin conditions. Pretty big claim to trade on.

Although there's some truth in this, from a study I found ages ago, if I remember rightly they found evidence that using the naturally occuring spas in .. (crap! can't remember where! Turkey I think) .. did help with dermatitus(sp?), but that it could have been a number of factors other than the fish, including just the warm water, which were doing the helping.


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

nickcradd067 said:


> where it is against the law for an unmarried woman to skydive on a sunday etc etc....


Please tell me that's not true.... 

:gasp:


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## RoyalBlood (Jan 5, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> What was the age of the fish? Garra Ruffa can reach 6 inches. How many 6 inch fish did you see? How long did the spa guarantee the life of the fish?
> 
> It's banned in many US states btw so questions like "if it was so bad why isn't illegal?" are a little naive.



You want to compare this country to america?? the Obese capital of the world?
Americans are often misinformed, over the top and frankly, their way of thinking is pretty wrong.
For example - Same sex marriage is illegal in 41/50 states! I mean personally i find that wrong :/ 
theyre also a load of deluded religious nuts 

I LOVE not being like america!! the more different a country we can be from america the better!!

Also, quick note... Apparently the garra ruffa fish have been used in this treatment for about 400 years and nobdy has ever caught a disease because of it like HIV or AIDS.. yes there might be a minute risk.. but i think everyones being totally pathetic..
Also you cannot get a tranfer of HIV from any wound small enough that it isnt bleeding, the virus would dilute and die and the next person using the treatment would have to have a large open cut connected to a blood vessle. 

how many of you have been to the swimming pool and walked along the corridoors or in the changing rooms where about 1000 other people have been treading and probably bleeding, covered in athletes food and blisters and bunions? i dread to think about it, but you do it anyway?
these fish people wont but manky feed in the tub, end of.


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

Christie_ZXR said:


> The transmission of disease, I think is a bit more of a problem than some people think, but probably a bit less of a problem than some would have you think.
> 
> A lot of places use UV sterilisers, which is great, but if they're set up wrong (eg. with the wrong flow) they're not going to work. However, the amount of water diluting the problem may well compensate.
> 
> ...


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## Scree (Sep 7, 2010)

MarcusF said:


> Something about it doesn't sit right with me. The fact that it's banned in some US states should tell us NOTHING.
> 
> I think it'll be a fad though and mainly used by the iSheep.


 
*In Illinois, According to state law, it is illegal to speak English. The officially recognized language is "American".* 

I fixed your post for you, i would take no lead from America in any way..


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

nickcradd067 said:


> Christie_ZXR said:
> 
> 
> > The transmission of disease, I think is a bit more of a problem than some people think, but probably a bit less of a problem than some would have you think.
> ...


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

Christie_ZXR said:


> nickcradd067 said:
> 
> 
> > Um, in the nicest possible way, missing the point a bit here. : victory:
> ...


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

nickcradd067 said:


> To be fair though the mobile spas have filtration and aeration systems that are working 24 hours a day so shipping them will not harm the fish.


It will harm them, because it is stressful. For a mobile spa even more so, they will be moving every week.

If someone can show me these fish living until adulthood I'll take everything back. That's all the spa needs to do, pictures of filtration set ups and large tanks don't mean a thing if the fish can't survive adolescence.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Scree said:


> *In Illinois, According to state law, it is illegal to speak English. The officially recognized language is "American".*
> 
> I fixed your post for you, i would take no lead from America in any way..


Old silly laws occur everywhere and don't mean a damned thing unless enforced.


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## Scree (Sep 7, 2010)

My point is more about the retardation of America


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Scree said:


> My point is more about the retardation of America


Well yeah, but that's a different topic altogether :lol2:


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## RoyalBlood (Jan 5, 2011)

Scree said:


> My point is more about the retardation of America


:no1:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

RoyalBlood said:


> You want to compare this country to america?? the Obese capital of the world?
> Americans are often misinformed, over the top and frankly, their way of thinking is pretty wrong.
> For example - *Same sex marriage is illegal in 41/50 states! I mean personally i find that wrong :/ *
> theyre also a load of deluded religious nuts
> ...


Same sex marage is also illegal in the UK. 

At least some american states have the decency to leglise same sex marage far better then in the UK. Although the Uk offer civil partnerships, they are by no means the same as a marage and the rights differ significantly on various points. There are only 14 countries in the world were gay marage is legal and the Uk is not one of them. 

However, on the whole i really dont want to be like america. 


I'm not going to comment on the rest of the debates as tbh im on the fence. if the fish are cared fro correctly i see no problem, at the moment im not sure the fish are being mistreated. 

Also, no blood born disease will surrive outside of the body long enough, especially in water, to contaminate two people in this situation. The HIV viris would deffently not surrive in this situation. Other diseases may be posiable in extreme cases to trasfer, but the risk is extremely low. 

jay


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

The whole disease argument is flawed in so many ways because as I and several others have now pointed out no pathogens would survive in high enough concentrations to make the fish spas harmful to humans. The only cases of fish spas being banned have all been on grounds of questionable hygiene, not due to the risk of infections. There is much less chance of catching a disease or virus from the fish spa than there is from using the same sauna, gym equipment, swimming pool etc that we all surely do.

With regards to the daft laws in the USA since I raised that point I was just trying to make the point that the USA is no example to follow, god help us if we did, with all due respect


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Personal hygiene doesn't bother me, if people want to do it they can, I'm just not sure it's best for the fish and seeing as the owners have a legal duty of care under the 2006 welfare act, shipping them from tank to tank doesn't seem to be very responsible. Neither do some of the tanks seem appropriate.


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## Moogloo (Mar 15, 2010)

TBH I am way too tired to type this all out so im going to quote places that share my opinions, before anyone says 'oh that site might not be reliable' its on several places, i just choose the one that is put simply enough...



> _Garra rufa_ occurs in the river basins of the Northern and Central Middle East, mainly in Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran. It is legally protected from commercial exploitation in Turkey due to concerns of overharvesting for export. _Garra rufa_ can be kept in an aquarium at home; while not strictly a "beginner's fish", it is quite hardy. For treatment of skin diseases, aquarium specimens are not well suited as the skin-feeding behavior fully manifests only under conditions where the food supply is somewhat scarce and unpredictable.


_There are already concerns of overharvesting in its native environment because of this fad!_

ahhh

i lost my list of sources for the legislations etc... but basically, there isnt a busting lot of legislation needed, a certain reptile shop i know set one up recently, personally i think its disgusting and i know for a fact they lost an awful lot of fish through pure lack of knowledge.

working in the aquatics trade, i get asked if i could sell large quantities of garra rufa to which i say definately not, im constantly dealing with 3 people in the local area coming in to buy products from three different foot spas, though one girl was so young i cant believe it but...who knows..

water has tested badly for 2 of them regularly and it doesnt matter what i sell them, its going to make sod all difference to the poor fish and all three refused to buy suitable food, two refusing to buy food at all, the third i guilt tripped into buying at very least some algae wafers.

----

Tbh there isnt much point trying to share knowledge on here because like the OP said before trying to argue a completely pointless arguement, the OP doesnt know anything about the fish anyway. No more than your average spa keepers then because you wont catch real fishkeepers or hobbyists setting up a spa!

----

Mind you... Im tempted to set up a foot spa with piranahas... do the job much faster  and the people get what i think they deserve and at least the fish wouldnt suffer from the diet as much


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

well think
the tanks are what, 40 gallons at the most?
there's probably 90/100 if not more in that tank, they must be stunted and stressed contantly


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

Moogloo said:


> TBH I am way too tired to type this all out so im going to quote places that share my opinions, before anyone says 'oh that site might not be reliable' its on several places, i just choose the one that is put simply enough...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is shocking to be honest mate. Really bad news if you have encountered some spa owners who blatently mistreat the fish as you say.

It is of course a very small sample however and it is not representative of all spa owners because anyone with any business acumen would know that looking after their assets is key to them making the business successful. Public opinion is vital to a business succeeding and animal welfare is a hot topic in society so for someone setting up a spa that offers a sevice involving animals, they would be very keen to fulfil all the needs and requirements of the animal themselves. Of course not all will do that but the vast majority will do.

People should just have some faith in humanity from time to time and don't cast judgement on others because they do things differently to you!! :2thumb:


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

spinnin_tom said:


> well think
> the tanks are what, 40 gallons at the most?
> there's probably 90/100 if not more in that tank, they must be stunted and stressed contantly


A spa that opened near me told me that the fish are rotated every few days so they never spend more than a few days in the small tanks in the shop, instead they had larger holding vats behind the scenes. Was nice to see that they were concious of possibly stunting and constantly stressing the fish out however I doubt that all the firms do this especially those in large shopping centres etc due to space restrictions but you never know.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

My money is on Mycobacterium (TB).

Fish TB (Mycobacterium marinum) FAQ , by Dr. Adrian Lawler

Girl may lose hand after catching fish TB | News | Practical Fishkeeping

The Health Protection Agency are working on investigating the practice, guidelines aren't even published yet.

Fish pedicure - is it safe to let Garra rufa fish exfoliate your feet?


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## MarcusF (May 9, 2010)

How can the shops guarantee that their fish will provide a proper 'service'? Are the fish kept hungry?

I find it strange that the general mindset of this forum is to almost insist animals are kept in a certain way, usually as natural and as stress free environment as possible. And in that respect, rightly so. Yet when it comes to a lot of fish kept in bare tanks with people sticking their feet in them, people can't see a problem.

The mind boggles :lol2:


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

MarcusF said:


> How can the shops guarantee that their fish will provide a proper 'service'? Are the fish kept hungry?
> 
> I find it strange that the general mindset of this forum is to almost insist animals are kept in a certain way, usually as natural and as stress free environment as possible. And in that respect, rightly so. Yet when it comes to a lot of fish kept in bare tanks with people sticking their feet in them, people can't see a problem.
> 
> The mind boggles :lol2:


 i an see a problem
i've always seen a problem with this silly fad.
like somebody said, if you have any respect for fish and fishkeeping, you won't use this.
you won't see me in one of those disgusting "spas" as i have respect for these pretty little grazers.

the bare tanks, overstocking, poor feeding regimes etc makes you wonder why they haven't been banned


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## bennystalebread (Jul 11, 2011)

Havent read all of this thread. 

Its a shocking practice to put upon a beautiful Garra sp.

2 shops to my knowledge have opened up providing this "service" in my hometown and i havent visited either because I know i'd end up doing something I regret (and it wouldnt be getting a fishy pedicure).


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## abadi (Jul 25, 2010)

I've read it all :Na_Na_Na_Na: every single post,,

I think it's not even worth it, so little fish are going to rip a bit of dead skin what's so exciting really other than how disgusting it sounds? there is probably no chlorine/chloramines in these tanks so what keeps the water clean for US? the fish will get harm more than benefits from dead skin and all fish don't usually spend all their time eating so these fish are probably starved so that they can serve the customers for money, i don't think they are fed a proper diet at all, in the spa's owner's case staying hungry means they will continue to eat from our customers everytime someone comes.

I am sure that they get a bunch dead from time to time, and that they continue to breed some in good conditions and diet to end up dumping them in the spas pond.


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

abadi said:


> I've read it all :Na_Na_Na_Na: every single post,,
> 
> I think it's not even worth it, so little fish are going to rip a bit of dead skin what's so exciting really other than how disgusting it sounds? there is probably no chlorine/chloramines in these tanks so what keeps the water clean for US? the fish will get harm more than benefits from dead skin and all fish don't usually spend all their time eating so these fish are probably starved so that they can serve the customers for money, i don't think they are fed a proper diet at all, in the spa's owner's case staying hungry means they will continue to eat from our customers everytime someone comes.


You have absolutely no evidence to support what you are saying. How would you possibly know whether or not the fish are fed after hours or not? I know for a fact that the fish at a local spa are fed a mixed diet of flake and frozen foods so that is evidence that at least one spa owner is concious of the condition and health of his charges and I am sure many others are too. As previously mentioned the fish do not eat the skin off the feet so if they were not fed at all they would simply starve to death, become lethargic and stop the grazing behaviour and in turn would not remove the skin from your feet.

These spas are just a fad. There are without any doubt better ways to remove dead skin from your feet, I personally prefer the sandpaper method! Our economy is built on providing options for people and entrepeneurs have cottoned onto the tradtion and success of the fish spas elsewhere in the world and brought them to the UK. If you do not want to use them then simply don't use them. You have a choice, no one is forcing you to go there. No one has yet provided conclusive evidence to the government or councils to show that these spas have a detrimental affect on the fish or the customers and hence they are still operating within the law. Until that evidence is provided then all of the claims put forward in this thread are unfounded and without any factual support.

The whole argument of health issues keeps on popping up but you cannot ban something because of these minute risks. As mentioned by the OP your feet are cleaned and checked for cuts and injuries before and after exposure to the fish and you can only have the procedure for up 15-30mins. All but a tiny proportion of fish TB cases in humans are in subjects who have been exposed to the bacteria for much longer periods of time. You have a far greater chance of encountering harmful bacteria by eating rice or chicken so should those foods be banned next?


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## Scree (Sep 7, 2010)

nickcradd067 said:


> You have a far greater chance of encountering harmful bacteria by eating rice or chicken so should those foods be banned next?


 
Yes, ban everything, ban it just in case, and do it now :censor:

On a serious note, i just spent the last 30 mins with my feet in my Trop tank, fish seemed to love it although their breath smells a bit now.. Anyone know why the waters turned green?


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

I don't like it, Cant really give a 100% great reason why I think it's wrong. I just think it is. Most probably because as a fish keeper and a person who tries hard to keep my fish in a nice environment, I find it almost totally against every thing I do for my fish. I don't like bare tanks with no enrichment for the fish or places to hide, I don't like putting my hands in the tank unnecessarily to avoid contaminating the water. I like to feed a good diet. So when I see a load of fish kept in a bare tank and people sticking there smelly feet in and the fish being used for a treatment that people pay for just because it's a bit odd and a novelty it winds me up as much as little kids banging on the glass of a fish tank. I'm sure the people who like this kind of thing can rubbish all my reasons for not liking it but that don't change how I feel about it.


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## MarcusF (May 9, 2010)

rum&coke said:


> I don't like it, Cant really give a 100% great reason why I think it's wrong. I just think it is. Most probably because as a fish keeper and a person who tries hard to keep my fish in a nice environment, I find it almost totally against every thing I do for my fish. I don't like bare tanks with no enrichment for the fish or places to hide, I don't like putting my hands in the tank unnecessarily to avoid contaminating the water. I like to feed a good diet. So when I see a load of fish kept in a bare tank and people sticking there smelly feet in and the fish being used for a treatment that people pay for just because it's a bit odd and a novelty it winds me up as much as little kids banging on the glass of a fish tank. I'm sure the people who like this kind of thing can rubbish all my reasons for not liking it but that don't change how I feel about it.


That's basically what I've been trying to say, just failing lol. As I mentioned the forum would be in uproar if someone stuck a couple of Beardies in a 30" viv with no decor and only fed crickets.
Yet keeping fish in a similar way is fine.

:yeahright:


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

MarcusF said:


> That's basically what I've been trying to say, just failing lol. As I mentioned the forum would be in uproar if someone stuck a couple of Beardies in a 30" viv with no decor and only fed crickets.
> Yet keeping fish in a similar way is fine.
> 
> :yeahright:


 
Yeah, And I think the unnecessaryness of it all, It's like when you see people on telly with snakes round there necks doing stupid game shows, you kind of think ok the snake was not harmed and probably didn't care but I wouldn't do that with one of my snakes so I don't like it.


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## Scree (Sep 7, 2010)

MarcusF said:


> As I mentioned the forum would be in uproar if someone stuck a couple of Beardies in a 30" viv with no decor and only fed crickets.
> 
> :yeahright:


 
I'd be in even more uproar if they were only fed feet


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

rum&coke said:


> I don't like it, Cant really give a 100% great reason why I think it's wrong. I just think it is. Most probably because as a fish keeper and a person who tries hard to keep my fish in a nice environment, I find it almost totally against every thing I do for my fish. I don't like bare tanks with no enrichment for the fish or places to hide, I don't like putting my hands in the tank unnecessarily to avoid contaminating the water. I like to feed a good diet. So when I see a load of fish kept in a bare tank and people sticking there smelly feet in and the fish being used for a treatment that people pay for just because it's a bit odd and a novelty it winds me up as much as little kids banging on the glass of a fish tank. I'm sure the people who like this kind of thing can rubbish all my reasons for not liking it but that don't change how I feel about it.


I agree 100% with all of this! Fishkeeping is a great hobby and one I have spent many years trying to master with varying success and I would recommend it to anyone. However like I have said many times before just because you do not agree with something or do not like the way someone conducts themselves, that is no justifcation for condemning it as many in this forum tend to do.



rum&coke said:


> Yeah, And I think the unnecessaryness of it all, It's like when you see people on telly with snakes round there necks doing stupid game shows, you kind of think ok the snake was not harmed and probably didn't care but I wouldn't do that with one of my snakes so I don't like it.


This is pretty naive though I think. You cannot say that is it not necessary because the vast majority of what we do is no necessary. It is not necessary for us to keep any animals in our houses so why not just ban fishkeeping and other such hobbies? Alcohol is a poison and accounts for thousands of deaths and illnesses every year and we would live longer and healthier lives without making it very unecessary however it still has it's place in society. If there are enough people willing to use the foot spas to make them economically viable then surely they too have their place? There are far worse and blatent flaunting of the animal welfare laws than the fish spas, perhaps people need to just put this in perspective.


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

Scree said:


> I'd be in even more uproar if they were only fed feet


Again, no one has any evidence of this though...


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## RoyalBlood (Jan 5, 2011)

rum&coke said:


> Yeah, And I think the unnecessaryness of it all, It's like when you see people on telly with snakes round there necks doing stupid game shows, you kind of think ok the snake was not harmed and probably didn't care but I wouldn't do that with one of my snakes so I don't like it.



But its okay for snake keepes to keep 50 snakes stacked high in plastic tubs with no decor with nothing but newspaper to sit on and waterbowl and hide?

I have nothing against it mind you, but im just saying lol... be it fish beardie or snake, im pretty sure theres little difference... its just how some people do it. 

Anyway, perhaps its just me.. but i was under the impression that fish dont exactly process thought... dont they have like short term memory loss? Whats it gonna do with decor that its not going to do without... they eat and swim around... surely thats the main thing


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## RoyalBlood (Jan 5, 2011)

I quoted the wrong thing... i meant about the previous quote about the beardies in a 30" tank. :whistling2:


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

RoyalBlood said:


> . dont they have like short term memory loss? Whats it gonna do with decor that its not going to do without... they eat and swim around... surely thats the main thing


nope, they have a conscious thought. 
they decide what to do, but schooling instinct often takes over

like you said, regardless of what animal.. it's not fair
i think it would be better saying you wouldn't keep 10 snakes in a 100 litre tank or similar


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

spinnin_tom said:


> nope, they have a conscious thought.
> they decide what to do, but schooling instinct often takes over


Fish do not have "conscious thought", that is just silly. Nor do they decide what to do. Most animals, and I mean most, are totally driven by their instincts. That includes domesticated animals like dogs etc. Their behaviours are driven by the need to survive and the need to breed, nothing else. 

The three years I spent studying marine biology and animal behaviour do come in handy sometimes lol.


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

nickcradd067 said:


> Fish do not have "conscious thought", that is just silly. Nor do they decide what to do. Most animals, and I mean most, are totally driven by their instincts. That includes domesticated animals like dogs etc. Their behaviours are driven by the need to survive and the need to breed, nothing else.
> 
> The three years I spent studying marine biology and animal behaviour do come in handy sometimes lol.


clearly you have never been fishing, those so called forgetful fish quickly learn whats a badly bated hook looks like.


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## RoyalBlood (Jan 5, 2011)

rum&coke said:


> clearly you have never been fishing, those so called forgetful fish quickly learn whats a badly bated hook looks like.


So how come we can still fish? they obviously dont recognise it that well mate or we would be able to fish would we!!!

Youd think 5000+ years of fishing would be enough for them to learn by your logic?

but apparently not


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

RoyalBlood said:


> So how come we can still fish? they obviously dont recognise it that well mate or we would be able to fish would we!!!
> 
> Youd think 5000+ years of fishing would be enough for them to learn by your logic?
> 
> but apparently not


Well I'm not putting them on par with Einstein , just giving them a little more credit than the old fish have 5 second memory span rubbish.


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

Oscar Swimming through 2" Tunnel w/o Wand #2 - YouTube


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

nickcradd067 said:


> Fish do not have "conscious thought", that is just silly. Nor do they decide what to do. Most animals, and I mean most, are totally driven by their instincts. That includes domesticated animals like dogs etc. Their behaviours are driven by the need to survive and the need to breed, nothing else.
> 
> The three years I spent studying marine biology and animal behaviour do come in handy sometimes lol.


wrong- cichlids have individual personalities, each one within the same species acts differently from the next, & some can be taught to play with ping-pong balls floating on the water, etc. & to suggest even dogs only act on instinct is just arrogance.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

RoyalBlood said:


> So how come we can still fish? they obviously dont recognise it that well mate or we would be able to fish would we!!!
> 
> Youd think 5000+ years of fishing would be enough for them to learn by your logic?
> 
> but apparently not


 
ithink that was aimed more at boring puddle dipping, as opposed to proper, salt water fishing 

that's why they adapt, they learn so we use different methods, different lures/hooks/baits etc.

same as the Garra, i'm sure if they were fed the right amount of proper food, then they'd learn and realise that feet aren't as good


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## Scree (Sep 7, 2010)

spinnin_tom said:


> then they'd learn and realise that feet aren't as good


 
Speak for your own feet, mine are Aufwuchs flavoured and full of vitamins and minerals


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## ginna (Jun 2, 2009)

i disagree about the memory thing ...because if goldfish didnt have a good memory why do they swim to the top when your about to feed them ? :whistling2:

also the fish arnt being forced to eat feet ... sometimes the fish just dont entertain feet and instead just swim around ... 


in my opinion all of you people out there arguing the same old points should actually go to a spa and ask them what filtration and such they are using instead of being ignorant and assuming that all fish spas are cruelly keeping the fish ... you dont treat all the newbies with that kind of respect do you.


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

rum&coke said:


> clearly you have never been fishing, those so called forgetful fish quickly learn whats a badly bated hook looks like.


If I had a metal bar and dipped one end of it in chocolate would you still eat it? Perhaps the fish just doesn't want to eat something that smells of metal and that I knows it cannot digest.



wilkinss77 said:


> wrong- cichlids have individual personalities, each one within the same species acts differently from the next, & some can be taught to play with ping-pong balls floating on the water, etc. & to suggest even dogs only act on instinct is just arrogance.


It is not arrogance, it is using all of the evidence available from centuries of observations of the natural world and making the most likely and reasonable conclusion.

I disagree about the cichlids too. Each specimen will have a different character to you because they will all display individual differences such as one might swim more or one might eat more, one might seem more preoccupied with mating than another etc etc. These are just the natural variations that occur within every species and if they did not occur then the species would become extinct fairly soon. To have a personality you must have self-awareness and empathy, neither of which are displayed in fish. Show a Kribensis a mirror and it will display because it doesn't see it's reflection, it just sees another fish. What you consider to be playing with a ping pong ball is not a cognitive action, it is simply the fish examing the ball in the hope that it might yeild some food. I have carried out that exact same experiment on some oscars I had and they lost interest in the ball after a short amount of time but when it was removed and reintroduced a few days later they were quick to reexamine it again. They had not learnt that the ball was useless because they continued to be interested in it everytime it was introduced.

Most animals can be trained to perform some level of task. Even flatworms have been trained to move through mazes in order to reach the food at the end. However these examples should not be confused with inteligence or cognition. The animal has an option, either stay where it is and risk being eaten or not finding a mate or losing energy through respiration, or it could forage for some food and increase its strength and potentially appear more attractive to a mate and thus inprove its reproductive fitness. If the second option involves moving through a maze or fiddling about with a ping pong ball for a while then they will do it. If they do not receive any reinforcement for their behaviour then they will cease it and try somewhere else.

Social animals like dogs, babboons etc appear to display emotional connections with their owners/kin. However these animals have evolved complex social structures in the wild where they are eager to please their superiors because that will stand them in better stead to get food or a mate later on in life. It's a common "fault" of pet owners to humanise their animals and believe they are more human than they really are.



spinnin_tom said:


> ithink that was aimed more at boring puddle dipping, as opposed to proper, salt water fishing
> 
> that's why they adapt, they learn so we use different methods, different lures/hooks/baits etc.
> 
> same as the Garra, i'm sure if they were fed the right amount of proper food, then they'd learn and realise that feet aren't as good


Remote tribes and isolated populations use even more primitive fishing methods than the west have probably ever used and yet these fish have not "learnt" to avoid them. How exactly do you propose that the ability to sense a fishing lure would be ingrained in a fish's DNA? Likewise how would a parent fish be able to teach it's young to avoid said lure? Don't be so naive.

And the Garra have evolved overs hundreds of thousands of years to be grazers, whether it is gravel, tree trunks, rocks or feet upon which they graze.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

nickcradd067 said:


> Remote tribes and isolated populations use even more primitive fishing methods than the west have probably ever used and yet these fish have not "learnt" to avoid them. How exactly do you propose that the ability to sense a fishing lure would be ingrained in a fish's DNA? Likewise how would a parent fish be able to teach it's young to avoid said lure? Don't be so naive.
> 
> And the Garra have evolved overs hundreds of thousands of years to be grazers, whether it is gravel, tree trunks, rocks or feet upon which they graze.


where did i say it was in their dna?
and like i said, i think that post is referring to boring puddle dipping, where you fish for stupid things like carp. eventually, they realise to stay away from badly prepared hooks etc.

and yes the Garra have evolved to graze, to graze on algae.. not horrible feet nasty stuff


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

nickcradd067 said:


> Social animals like dogs, babboons etc appear to display emotional connections with their owners/kin. However these animals have evolved complex social structures in the wild where they are eager to please their superiors because that will stand them in better stead to get food or a mate later on in life. It's a common "fault" of pet owners to humanise their animals and believe they are more human than they really are.
> 
> .


It's also a common "fault" of humans to forget that they too are animals, love for example could be described as a complex human emotion a choice of intelligence, or it could just be a simple evolutionary trait developed over years because without the emotion of love humans would not stick around to care for there helpless offspring for the many years it takes for them to be able to care for them selfs. Hate ,greed, anger pretty much every human emotion has a root in evolution and survival. Also a simple break down in law and order and society would see us heading straight back to animal instincts. So really the ignorance is to assume we as animals are any different in motivation or emotional response than any other animal IMHO.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

just realised, you're only in sheppey 

and that's it, everything is evolution, passed down through the genetics etc.
good point


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

spinnin_tom said:


> just realised, you're only in sheppey
> 
> and that's it, everything is evolution, passed down through the genetics etc.
> good point


What you're saying is that fish have "learnt" to avoid our fishing methods and so we have been forced to alter our fishing techniques to outsmart the fish. You're implying that fish have the ability to avoid hooks in their DNA otherwise they'd have been caught and eaten otherwise how could they then learn from their mistakes and go onto avoid them in the future?



rum&coke said:


> It's also a common "fault" of humans to forget that they too are animals, love for example could be described as a complex human emotion a choice of intelligence, or it could just be a simple evolutionary trait developed over years because without the emotion of love humans would not stick around to care for there helpless offspring for the many years it takes for them to be able to care for them selfs. Hate ,greed, anger pretty much every human emotion has a root in evolution and survival. Also a simple break down in law and order and society would see us heading straight back to animal instincts. So really the ignorance is to assume we as animals are any different in motivation or emotional response than any other animal IMHO.


Humans are animals but have an exponentially more complex social structure and cognitive ability than any other species on this planet. Our lives are driven by social constraints now and our insticts are put aside otherwise no one would be able to have a commited relationship for example. With our advances in science, medicine and technology etc, human evolution has taken a hit because hereditery diseases and mutations can be tranferred between generations and this weakens the species on the whole. This does not occur in the animal kingdom.

You are correct that we experience feelings and emotions that have roots in our instincts, I am not denying that we do not act on our instincts either. An interesting characteristic of humans that set us apart however is our ability to act against our instincts.

Throughout the animal kingdom you can see behaviours occuring that are analogous with certain human emotions such as some sea birds are known to feed the offspring of their neighbours for example. This appears to be an example of generosity however could it not just be that the bird knows that the more individuals there are, the less chance of it's offspring being predated upon? No one knows that answer to this but it is more likely that the bird is not showing emotion and helping out its neighbour, instead it is just doing what it can to improve the chances of its own offspring surviving to reproduce itself.

A good book to read is The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins, it is all about this exact topic and explains it better than I can!


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

spinnin_tom said:


> where did i say it was in their dna?
> and like i said, i think that post is referring to boring puddle dipping, where you fish for stupid things like carp. eventually, they realise to stay away from badly prepared hooks etc.
> 
> and yes the Garra have evolved to graze, to graze on algae.. not horrible feet nasty stuff


_
Garra _do not eat the skin off your feet, they graze or nibble any surface they encounter in the hope that it does have something on that they can eat and since they are *omnivorous *and do not rely soley on algae, contrary to what you think, they will try anything. In the wild they will graze and forage on rocks, wood, gravel, mud you name it and to them there is no difference between a tree trunk and your foot. :2thumb:


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