# what are peoples veiws on this



## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

Zoo culls 'surplus' hogs - Edinburgh Evening News


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## Jczreptiles (Sep 1, 2009)

I think the zoo keepers should be culled because they are "surplus to requirement". To be a zoo keeper surely you should be an animal lover and should never kill animals because they don't fit in with your plans or you have too many of them.


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## Dragon Wolf (Oct 27, 2009)

I may be wrong with this idea as i don't know the ins and outs of how zoo breeding policy works.

But wouldn't they be able to sell them to exotic mammal keepers rather than put them to sleep?

Excuse my ignorance if i'm completely wrong.


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## Kaouthia (Sep 30, 2010)

There are many good reasons for culling various species out there. This isn't really one of them imo.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

From a realistic POV... Whilst it isn't something I would put into practice myself, I feel there is no issue with culling if done for the right reasons. Every effort should be made to home them to either a private keeper (though I do understand many zoos/collections are hesitant to home to private keepers) or another establishment, especially in the case of less common species'.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

It's not the zookeepers' fault - it's the European Endangered Species Programme that told them that the two piglets were surplus to breeding requirements and therefore needed to be culled.

Yes, I find that counterproductive to "preserving endangered species" too.... but maybe they're concerned about producing too many offspring from one pair because that increases the chance of inbreeding in future generations - if everyone has one Red River Hog who has the Edinburgh Zoo animals as parents or grandparents (because Edinburgh's produced so many of them), then you'll quickly wind up with a population that shares a lot of the same ancestors on both sides of the family tree.


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## Drayvan (Jul 7, 2010)

as sad as this is many zoos send surplus stock to research labs, so humane death may be a better option in my opinion. it does happen more often than zoos would like you to believe though. at college we were told to prepare our thoughts and opinions on stock culling should we ever be interviewed for a zoo position


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

Would it not be better to kill them for human consumption..


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> It's not the zookeepers' fault - it's the European Endangered Species Programme that told them that the two piglets were surplus to breeding requirements and therefore needed to be culled.
> 
> Yes, I find that counterproductive to "preserving endangered species" too.... but maybe they're concerned about producing too many offspring from one pair because that increases the chance of inbreeding in future generations - if everyone has one Red River Hog who has the Edinburgh Zoo animals as parents or grandparents (because Edinburgh's produced so many of them), then you'll quickly wind up with a population that shares a lot of the same ancestors on both sides of the family tree.


thats the problem tho this pair have only had 2 litters amounting to 5 piglets and the older 2 have been culled that means there are 3 younger ones still there that most likely will be culled to


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

adamntitch said:


> thats the problem tho this pair have only had 2 litters amounting to 5 piglets and the older 2 have been culled that means there are 3 younger ones still there that most likely will be culled to


We don't know that the parents have only had two litters - the two litters are just *since they've been at Edinburgh*. Maybe they've had multiple litters before Edinburgh obtained them, since they were adults when the zoo got them in 2004.


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## loulou87 (Sep 10, 2010)

Really Sad, especially when they are allowing the adults to breed knwing that they may have to cull the offspring. IMO there must be a better solution but seems the programme cant be bothered to think of a solution- I'd bloody cull them:censor:


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## Loderuna (Mar 9, 2010)

I don't think the zoo had any choice but to comply with the EEP, or lose their membership. However, I see no reason why these pigs could not have been neutered and rehomed. If no home could be found, then euthanasia would be more valid, but again, they could still make good sausages and not be wasted!!!

I think it's a great waste and zoos can and maybe should use implants etc to prevent breeding/conception rather than euthanase. It seems to be one of those ill-thought out rules made by someone who has no actual input regarding animal welfare - just dealing with data and forgetting that they are in the business of animal care.


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> We don't know that the parents have only had two litters - the two litters are just *since they've been at Edinburgh*. Maybe they've had multiple litters before Edinburgh obtained them, since they were adults when the zoo got them in 2004.


i know this is a diffrent pair frm being on a zoo forum the older pair they where moved so this is the younger pair bred from the older pair


edit slightly wrong there 

there had 2 pairs together the older pair became un productive so where moved on allowing tis younger pair to breed just last year so makes no sense to breed just to have them culled


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## Kaouthia (Sep 30, 2010)

LeviathanNI said:


> Would it not be better to kill them for human consumption..


Or serpentine consumption.


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

My main issue is the word 'CULL" i hate it, its pointless... lest replace it with the good old fashioned word 'murder'.


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## Kaouthia (Sep 30, 2010)

I think it's more akin to "justifiable homicide" rather than plain out "murder", although the justification sometimes seens tenuous at best.


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## Jczreptiles (Sep 1, 2009)

ambyglam said:


> My main issue is the word 'CULL" i hate it, its pointless... lest replace it with the good old fashioned word 'murder'.


 Spot on: victory:


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## Jczreptiles (Sep 1, 2009)

Kaouthia said:


> I think it's more akin to "justifiable homicide" rather than plain out "murder", although the justification sometimes seens tenuous at best.


 I wish some *people* could be culled because they have no relevance to the world :whistling2:


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## Kaouthia (Sep 30, 2010)

Jczreptiles said:


> I wish some *people* could be culled because they have no relevance to the world :whistling2:


Don't we all mate.


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## xvickyx (Jul 21, 2009)

Jczreptiles said:


> I wish some *people* could be culled because they have no relevance to the world :whistling2:


: victory:

Is there no way that they can be rehomed or moved onto another zoo?? Sorry if thats already been mentioned..


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

This zoo must have been aware of the offsprings fate so why let the adults breed,also this is common practice with many zoos.Dont forget the first and foremost reason they exist is to make money,baby animals are a huge attraction and draw in the crowds,after the summer period is over they are pts.I think they do it with their tigers also .Most directors of zoos are not animal people,they are ex navy,bank managers etc.What is their input to conservation if animals are allowed to breed,then culled,they may as well not keep them.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

In time to come, I hope that CENSR will bridge the gap between public zoo and private keepers. Maybe this organisation will help animals be passed from zoo surplus into private keeper's breeding programmes. 

Until zoos start to see the value of private keepers they'll never support us let alone stop culling surplus and send them our way instead.


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> It's not the zookeepers' fault - it's the European Endangered Species Programme that told them that the two piglets were surplus to breeding requirements and therefore needed to be culled.
> 
> Yes, I find that counterproductive to "preserving endangered species" too.... but maybe they're concerned about producing too many offspring from one pair because that increases the chance of inbreeding in future generations - if everyone has one Red River Hog who has the Edinburgh Zoo animals as parents or grandparents (because Edinburgh's produced so many of them), then you'll quickly wind up with a population that shares a lot of the same ancestors on both sides of the family tree.


But they could neuter, rehome & generate interest in the animals by sending to a suitable sanctuary or private owner?

I personally would consider it to be a sign of the 'Zoo monopoly' which basically rejects private owners as suitable owners of exotic animals despite the fact that wider ownership would secure a brighter breeding future in many instances, even if only to offer homes to animals removed from the breeding programme rather than resorting to culling.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Some zoos do work with private keepers to a degree, but generally only with people they know & trust.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Fair point Colin but its all so 'below board' because they arent allowed to sell the animals but even trading animals with them always seems like such a big deal. 

Its all too much of a one way street aswell. I mean a large safari park approached me for a free skunk kit and in return want to give me some jirds although they don't know which species...

I would love to work with Malagasy Jumping Rats but they would rather implant the female than let me have the surplus. However they are more than happy to use me as a free advisor on their other giant rats and send their staff round to me to learn how to handle them.

Something needs to change.


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> Some zoos do work with private keepers to a degree, but generally only with people they know & trust.


Which is absolutely as it should be - people they know and trust - and to be congratulated!


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

Pouchie said:


> Fair point Colin but its all so 'below board' because they arent allowed to sell the animals but even trading animals with them always seems like such a big deal.
> 
> Its all too much of a one way street aswell. I mean a large safari park approached me for a free skunk kit and in return want to give me some jirds although they don't know which species...
> 
> ...


Sorry for the double post but I am outraged for you. 

If this is the extent that zoos work with private owners, that's nothing but free riding on people who legitimately care enough about the animals in question to give them advice...


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

I am happy to donate an animal because it means a great home for a baby I have bred and in this case it means company for their existing one. Just annoys me that zoos don't yet seem to see the value in private keepers as a way of homing surplus (especially when we are talking about endangered species). Mainly because the general opinion is that exotics should not be owned privately. Kinda ridiculous when you consider that there are private keepers with far more knowledge and experience in their specialist species than any zoo keeper.


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

Pouchie said:


> I am happy to donate an animal because it means a great home for a baby I have bred and in this case it means company for their existing one. Just annoys me that zoos don't yet seem to see the value in private keepers as a way of homing surplus (especially when we are talking about endangered species). Mainly because the general opinion is that exotics should not be owned privately. Kinda ridiculous when you consider that there are private keepers with far more knowledge and experience in their specialist species than any zoo keeper.


The thing is, I do appreciate there are higher authorities which set precedents for zoos that basically remove private owners from the equation, but that's simply not sustainable really is it...I just strongly believe that they're missing a chance to educate valuable 'homes' in the form of private owners but there's is so much working against zoos and exotic owners in general... bah. I am really stuck as to what the way forward would be. Since joining RFUK I've felt so much (this sounds really odd) sort of pride at the owners out there working extra hard to make up for the backlash against them, so perhaps public opinion is on a road towards change anyway.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

ah well, I am not stuck as to what the way forward should be.

The reason zoo collections are so powerful and private keepers so easily battered is because we don't work together. We are just singular little people.

That is the purpose of my organisation, CENSR. It is there to act in the exact same way as BIAZA helps zoos to work together. 

Until we start to manage our exotic animal breeding as a whole, all the breeding people do individually is pretty futile.

Sadly, the support for CENSR is dismal and private keepers don't appear ready to change the way they work just yet. 

Lets hope in future my private co-operative breeding programmes pave the way for us to work alongside zoos.

For now though, its a case of waiting for people to make that transition.


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## mariex4 (Oct 19, 2009)

that is sooooooooo sad and a joke . why bloody put a male and female together to have babys to then put them to sleep . makes me sick :bash::bash::bash::devil::bash::bash::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Pouchie said:


> ah well, I am not stuck as to what the way forward should be.
> 
> The reason zoo collections are so powerful and private keepers so easily battered is because we don't work together. We are just singular little people.
> 
> ...


before I read this post ^ I was going to suggest we private keepers start up a group which could act as a bigger entity & communicate with zoos & their governing bodies to set up some co-operation & partnerships when it comes to dealing with surplus animals, exchange of bloodlines, etc. 

Pouchie, please excuse my ignorance of CENSR. Could you please give us info about this, as I think your idea sounds akin to my thoughts & ideas also. Maybe if we can take the first few steps, we may be able to get somewhere & achieve more, & eventually be seen for our worth in the eyes of zoos & the regulatory associations.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Hi Colin - you are most welcome to join CENSR. Its the Central Exotic & Non Native Species Registry which is basically a group of breeders who manage populations of a growing number of species. The aim is that we will look after every exotic species available to us and that become available to us. We breed for genetic diversity and each species is colour coded. Green code species are those which have known unrelated backgrounds that can be traced back, Amber being partial or unknown relatedness and Code Red species being those which have known relatedness and hence small gene pools. 

We use Studbooks to record the information and a private area on the EKF Forum to communicate. 

It is something I started privately a couple of years ago as a trial run but its open to the public now. The website is at www.censr.org
All you do is fill out an application form off the website and email it to me.
I am not charging for the time being until we are more established but we've already made some good achievements. The cost will be £40 a year and that money pays for new bloodlines and new species.
Beyond that there is no money involved as members loan and trade animals between them selling surplus animals to the public to help toward running costs.

There is also the option of Associate Membership for £15 per annum for those people who do not wish to be breeder members but still want to support the project and or take part in the educational side of it. They get access to the quarterly Journal 'Censored' which tracks the progress of the whole project.

The educational side is a) educational displays at shows, schools etc etc and b) campaigns. The campaigns are as follows:

Breed 4 Life
Encouraging breeders to take responsibility for the animals they produce for the lifetime of that animal, taking them back if ever the need be.

Pet 4 Life
Trying to reverse the attitude of it being acceptable to rehome for frivolous reasons and treat animals like possessions - selling on then buying the next fashionable species.

Habitat
A campaign to build up a resource and encourage people to always strive to improve their animal's environments and enrichment.

Operation Emini
Specific campaign to help us rebuild a captive population of Emins Pouched Rats.


I understand that people will need to start seeing results before they really come onboard but it will take more enthusiastic founder members to help me grow this. So far we have fantastic Tristrams Jird and Emins Pouched Rat breeding programmes going and here are some of the other species which have also been inducted: Fennec Fox, Common Marmoset, Raccoon Dog, Baluchistan Pygmy Gerbil, Gambian Pouched Rat, Prairie Dog, Coati, Richardsons Ground Squirrel, Meerkat, Dwarf Mongoose, Pardine & Cape Genets, Short Tailed Opossum and we are hoping to add Demerests Cuban Hutia, Chinchilla Mice, Viscacha Rats and Common Tenrecs over the next few months. 

A zoo may be parting with some surplus Rattus rattus at some point too so there's another one. A good example of how we CAN work alongside the public collections.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Pouchie said:


> Hi Colin - you are most welcome to join CENSR. Its the Central Exotic & Non Native Species Registry which is basically a group of breeders who manage populations of a growing number of species. The aim is that we will look after every exotic species available to us and that become available to us. We breed for genetic diversity and each species is colour coded. Green code species are those which have known unrelated backgrounds that can be traced back, Amber being partial or unknown relatedness and Code Red species being those which have known relatedness and hence small gene pools.
> 
> We use Studbooks to record the information and a private area on the EKF Forum to communicate.
> 
> ...


Thanks Pouchie, very interesting read there, & great website too.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Pouchie said:


> In time to come, I hope that CENSR will bridge the gap between public zoo and private keepers. Maybe this organisation will help animals be passed from zoo surplus into private keeper's breeding programmes.
> 
> Until zoos start to see the value of private keepers they'll never support us let alone stop culling surplus and send them our way instead.


Dont think they ever will be allowed to pouchie...Have dealt with zoos for quite a long time now helping with small primates..Even have some of my own stock there as exhibits..
They are under a very tight control and the studbook keeper has the say..
Stood and watched a very high amount of tortoise eggs be disposed of because they were surplis to requirements..
Also a very large amount of marmies being implanted so they cant breed...
Its one of these situations that even the zoo doesnt have control over...They must do as they are told...
There are some that are passed to other zoos before being culled but there would be no hope of them ever coming to private breeders...
They dont agree with people like us....
Im in the middle of a zoo wanting an animal from me to make a pair....I dont like the way they keep there small primates(short staffed due to money)
So therefore i dont think they give enough attention...
I have offered to make the pair here with us (which is going ahead) but the amount of red tape you have to go through is unbelievable...
Think they are scared that if we work together then they may do thereselves out of buisiness....
I can see more at home than at some of them...


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

CENSR was never conceived to get us working with zoos, it was set up to get us working with each other.

If we never do get a working relationship with zoo collections it will not necessarily be much of a loss to us. We can arguably achieve more privately anyway - so long as most breeders eventually join this network.
It needs everyone. If we cannot get enough breeders then we will remain very limited on the amount of species we can look after.

I aim high but if we conserve only a small number of species in captivity, especially ones I know the zoos aren't keeping, I'll die happy LOL


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

Can we solve a pig of a problem without zoos? - Herald Scotland | Comment | Guest Commentary

They were from a litter of five, so maybe it's because they're both male.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Pouchie said:


> CENSR was never conceived to get us working with zoos, it was set up to get us working with each other.
> 
> If we never do get a working relationship with zoo collections it will not necessarily be much of a loss to us. We can arguably achieve more privately anyway - so long as most breeders eventually join this network.
> It needs everyone. If we cannot get enough breeders then we will remain very limited on the amount of species we can look after.
> ...


How would that work with art10 etc?


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Hi Peter - I don't think I understand the question, could you explain? 

CENSR is not just for CITES species, it can reduce the numbers of all species being wild caught for the pet trade as we can breed more effectively and maintain UKCB populations. At the moment, species are imported, bred willy nilly by random lone breeders then they ultimately die out when out of fashion. Then at some point more have to be imported.

Even things like Gambian Pouched Rats seem to be dying out in the UK as breeders can no longer flog the offspring or even give them away so the number of breeders has dwindled right down.

There will be a demand for them again in due course and people will suddenly realise there arent any. 

Ok not such a problem as there are a small number of breeders in Europe and more can be imported but what happens with species that are more fragile and have to be trapped in big numbers just to get a small number to survive? 

Rodents aside, what about larger species that don't adapt easily to captivity? Personally I'd rather see the ones we DO get managed better and to do that we need a way to communicate and co-operate.


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