# Amphibians for a Tropical Freshwater tank



## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

Hi, this is my first post.

I keep marine and have kept freshwater tanks. I am now looking into going into amphibians.

I know what I am about to suggest is rarely done, so can you give me any hints on where to go from here.

I would like to keep an anphibian in an open topped tank. The tank will be 24''X24''X24''. This is roughly 216L, probably about 180 as the wate rwould only be about 50cm deep . Before displacement. It will be heavily planted, and will have an island in the centre with about 6'' either side of it as water. A thin liner will seperate the island from the water to prevent the island's soil getting too wet. There will be a fine mesh across the tank to prevent fish from jumping out and the amphibian from escaping. It will be lit by two T5 bulbs. I will use a large pump, like that they use for marine, and I will use UV as a steriliser for the water. Water quality will not be a problem, and I doubt humidity would be either.

Tank parameters:
-Temp, from 22-26 degrees celcius.
-Oxygen content of the water will be high
-Humidity would be about 70%, measured from my current fish tank with lights on.
-Freshwater

The island will be planted too, and will have a few logs and such to provide shelter.

Fish Stock, all are peaceful and not predatory on amphibians or other fish:
Neon tetras/other type of tetra, 2-3'', about 6-10 fish
Elegans Cory Cat, 2-3''. 4 or so of these.
Neon Blue Dwarf Gourami, 2''. a pair or two pairs.
A group of Red Cherry Shrimp 4 or so, 1½" (Can go if needed)

So that is a maximum of 18 fish and 4 or so inverts, in about 180L. These may reduce, I need to read up on stocking densities. It is about 45US gallon. Considering that a lot of 180L tanks have about half taken up by decoration it should be fine. There will be fairly little else in the water apart from the plants, but there will be plenty. Perhaps a few large pebbles but nothing that will displace too much water. Will ask in store though and need to buy some more up to date books. 

So there will be about 40% land, 60% water. A lot of vegetation on the land, and a lot of aquatic plants in the water. There will be small drift wood for the amphibian and possibly a largish centre plant. If we look at area that is about 3600 sq. cm total. With 1440 sq. cm land. And 2160 sq. cm. 

If the tank dimensions are not suitable, they can be changed within reason. I am willing to go 36'', 24'', 24''. LWH. 

The amphibian can either be a frog or a newt. It needs to:
Be aquatic/semi-aquatic.
Not a threat to any fish, and prefrebly not to small shrimp.
Not be toxic, as this may harm/kill fish.
Remain relativly small.

A newt roughly the same size and have a similar disposition to the smooth newt. Ideally on the small size about 3'', but can be up to 4''. 

If I get a newt I will add a lip in roughly the shape below

__
| |
|
|

The left is outside the tank, the right is inside the tank.
The double lip should stop them as I know they are good climbers. A mesh will also be used as said above.

Please tell me if this is not possible, or if I need to change my tank parameters to get a suitable newt. I know it is hard to do, but need some bottom dwelling amphibian which only eats small worms, and prefrebly not snails, but I can always breed them in their own side tank.

I am willing to keep live food, and if possible make my own. I am not looking to breed the amphibians but may do so if a pair is possible.

So can you list tank sizes for both singles and pairs/groups, diet, max size and how hard they are to keep

I know I ask a lot. But I would love to do something like this.

So thanks in advance.


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## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

Sorry a few typos, can't seem to edit now.

I didn't seem to explain my reasoning for not including two commonly kept aquatic amphibians:
The African Clawed Frog may consume small fish, and fish larger than the frog may consume it. So it is not an option.
Oriental Fire-Bellied toads have a toxin which will pollute the water, so I can't keep them.

I am edging towards a newt of some kind, but can't find any information on any tropical newt/salamander species. Ideally it needs to either be in the following geographic places:
Brazil, India or Central Africa to live at the temperatures I want. I can bring the temperature down and keep different fish, but there doesn't seem to be an option. 

There are a number of sources saying to keep a tropical/sub-tropical newt/salamander you need a heated tank. They don't seem to name any.

The only tropical newts I have found are Pachytriton brevipes and P. labiatus. They grow up to 7'' so too large for my tank.

I can only find Bolitoglossa paraensis as the only brazil species, is this true?
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Well having a look on wikepedia, looking at list of salamanders and newts. I haven't found a suitable one for my temperature range. I have found some but they have been critically endangered so will not be exported (I hope)

So does anyone know of any non-toxic, 'fish safe' salamanders/newts. They need to be small enough not to be a threat to small fish. I will not keep large fish with them, again only small max 3'' fish.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

There are very few tropical or neotropical newts; most need cooler temperatures. There are a small number of Central American tree-climbing salamanders, but they are almost totally not available in the trade, and not suitable for your set-up anyway. You are right about the toxins produced by FBTs, and again the set-up would be too warm. It might be worth your while researching Asian paddy frogs- small-ish ranids that live around ditches and rice paddies in South Asia. They aren't amazingly colourful, but they are quite fun to watch. I had them as temporary pets in Sri Lanka for a while.


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## DONTLOOKATME (Apr 5, 2013)

Amphibians and fish usually don't work well, either through toxins or waste of either the amphibians or the fish effecting the other, or through competition for food or aggression etc. Like Ron said, most caudates like the newts you were thinking of couldn't cope with the temperatures needed for the tropical fish so that's them out.
For the fire bellied toad, the toxins they secrete wouldn't make them the best choice although otherwise the set-up sounds good, someone will correct me if I'm wrong there.
Had you considered African Dwarf Frogs? I'd imagine they'd do OK in that set up, although they'd make no use whatsoever of the land area. I'm not familiar with the fish stocked in the tank so don't know if they'd co-habit, but if they'll co-habit with cherry shrimp they should be fine with the small frog?
One thing to watch out for will be the frog getting enough food though! Since fish are a lot faster and less clumsy, they'll often get to the food before the frog.
This can be remedied by feeding the frog directly with a turkey bastor or similar. :2thumb:
Good luck.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

DONTLOOKATME said:


> Amphibians and fish usually don't work well, either through toxins or waste of either the amphibians or the fish effecting the other, or through competition for food or aggression etc. Like Ron said, most caudates like the newts you were thinking of couldn't cope with the temperatures needed for the tropical fish so that's them out.
> *For the fire bellied toad, the toxins they secrete wouldn't make them the best choice although otherwise the set-up sounds good, someone will correct me if I'm wrong there.*
> Had you considered African Dwarf Frogs? I'd imagine they'd do OK in that set up, although they'd make no use whatsoever of the land area. I'm not familiar with the fish stocked in the tank so don't know if they'd co-habit, but if they'll co-habit with cherry shrimp they should be fine with the small frog?
> One thing to watch out for will be the frog getting enough food though! Since fish are a lot faster and less clumsy, they'll often get to the food before the frog.
> ...


Again, they don't do well at the higher temps, quite aside from the (very real) toxin issue. ADFs are a possibility- we keep them with guppies and neons, but as you say, they don't use land areas at all, and making sure they are properly fed can be a hassle.


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## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

In a sealed 2'X2'X3' tank would it be possible to keep an 'easy' dart frog, like Dendrobates auratus. Or would a smaller tank be more suitable. Ideally I would like to keep a group, they can be kept in groups, but I am not sure how the aggression works.

If I were to keep any amphibian they would come first. But could dart frogs be kept in a terrarium, with deep water with a few small fish in? If there were to be any risk to the frog I would be content keeping just the frogs.

Dart frogs are only poisonous if they consume poisonous foods.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

You might get away with leucs with deepish water, but you would need to provide plenty for them to rest on and climb out on should they end up in the water (which they will).

Ade


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## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

So what I am thinking now is having a large terrarium, with a fairly small pool. In this pool will be a small 3'' catfish and a shoal of neon tetras. There will be plenty of ways to get out, water will be about 6'' deep. It will have a shallow sloping bank, there will be little vegetation by the water so there is less likelihood of the frogs falling of a leaf, branch or jumping from one branch to another and missing. There will also be pieces of driftwood in the water which lead to the bank. I intend not to have the leucs need to stay by the water and they will have the option to stay away from it if they wish.

Thanks for the help.


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