# "tame" Siberian foxes



## Baby_sloth_wrangler

I've stumbled across an American website which apparently sells those Russian tame foxes which have been used in experiments. Are there any in the UK yet? Gorgeous though they are, not really interested in having one just curious to know. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Elina

Yes you can get them, very expensive though!
My sister ordered one and sadly it was DOA but as she has proof of this she has been told she can get another when she feels ready. (He was a wedding gift from my Dad, feel horrid for the though as she could not get to her wedding in Canada due to the volcano earlier this year and then her dream fox died :-( ).

I know the company you speak of and it is currently unknown if they are a scam, my sister just ordered hers directly from the Institute.

If you would like to know anything about them feel free to PM me and I can give you my sisters e-mail.

-
Elina


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## Goth-Gurl

wow.. just had a look on google.. siberian/russian foxes are in fact stunning!!  I'm becoming a little obsessed with foxes now


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## Elina

_'At seven or eight months, when the foxes reach sexual maturity, they are scored for tameness and assigned to one of three classes. The least domesticated foxes, those that flee from experimenters or bite when stroked or handled, are assigned to Class III. (Even Class III foxes are tamer than the calmest farm-bred foxes. Among other things, they allow themselves to be hand fed.) Foxes in Class II let themselves be petted and handled but show no emotionally friendly response to experimenters. Foxes in Class I are friendly toward experimenters, wagging their tails and whining. In the sixth generation bred for tameness we had to add an even higher-scoring category. Members of Class IE, the "domesticated elite," are eager to establish human contact, whimpering to attract attention and sniffing and licking experimenters like dogs. They start displaying this kind of behavior before they are one month old. By the tenth generation, 18 percent of *fox* pups were elite; by the 20th, the figure had reached 35 percent. Today elite foxes make up 70 to 80 percent of our experimentally selected population.

Now, 40 years and 45,000 foxes after Belyaev began, our experiment has achieved an array of concrete results. The most obvious of them is a unique population of 100 foxes (at latest count), each of them the product of between 30 and 35 generations of selection. They are unusual animals, docile, eager to please and unmistakably domesticated. When tested in groups in an enclosure, pups compete for attention, snarling fiercely at one another as they seek the favor of their human handler. Over the years several of our domesticated foxes have escaped from the fur farm for days. All of them eventually returned. Probably they would have been unable to survive in the wild.'_

All of the ones they sell to be pets are IE so they are not just 'tame' but domesticated.
-
 Elina


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## RaccoonsRule

They are gorgeous, however i prefer the Artic Fox  lol


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## Baby_sloth_wrangler

Elina said:


> Yes you can get them, very expensive though!
> My sister ordered one and sadly it was DOA but as she has proof of this she has been told she can get another when she feels ready. (He was a wedding gift from my Dad, feel horrid for the though as she could not get to her wedding in Canada due to the volcano earlier this year and then her dream fox died :-( ).
> 
> I know the company you speak of and it is currently unknown if they are a scam, my sister just ordered hers directly from the Institute.
> 
> If you would like to know anything about them feel free to PM me and I can give you my sisters e-mail.
> 
> -
> Elina


Oh how awful that must have been for her  I'm guessing she got them directly from Russia then? The translation must have been fun! Thank you, I may look into them in the future but at the moment they are far beyond my capabilities as an exotics owner :lol2:. I'll cross my fingers that in the future they would be easier to get hold of!


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## Jamiioo

What is DOA?


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## Elina

DOA= Dead on arrival.

-
Elina


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## Kare

There was a programme on TV a few years ago about tamed foxes, well it was about the process the original dogs may have gone through but looked alot at these foxes. 

In the studies strangely as the Foxes got tamer generation on generation their ears also became softer to the point generations later they none had erect ears they all had button or rose type ears or at the least semi cocked. Are the foxes they sell still all foxy looking?


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## Elina

Well actually it is only a small percentage of them that have floppy ears but there are also other 'dog like' traits that some of them poses such as spots (as in like a Dalmatian) and curly tails but again that is just some of them.

Here are a few photos of two:


























The top one has none of the above mentioned traits where as the bottom one does have spots (not many though), both in the class IE meaning domestic elite.

I am by no means any kind of expert on them, my sister knows far more (I shall have to get her to make an account on here).
-
Elina


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## kellystewart

I have to admit they are absolutely stunning and if money wasn't an issue then I would definitely rehome a few of those gorgeous creatures!


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## em_40

So would I!! They are stunning, absolutely beautiful, I looked into them at one point because my partners favourite animal is the red fox. He'd love one that looked just like your average red fox. I wish we could get one. They are definately on my 'one day- exotics' list!  although they are as friendly as a dog, are they still considered exotics?  they are unusual for sure.


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## Elina

I think so seeing as some still class ferrets for example as exotics even though they are domesticated and the term exotic tends to be used to describe something a bit out of the ordinary and they are at present very out of the ordinary. 
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Elina


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## samurai

Thats fascinating from a domestication study point of view, i hope they neuter them before they come over here otherwise they'll be breeding with our wild foxes. How much are they?


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## Elina

They are all neutered prior to being shipped. They do not want other people breeding them which makes total sense as they also have to class them prior to sending them. This is to make sure that they are domestic elite which may be less then easy for your average person (without a lab and training) to do.

They are near enough £3k each and then you still have to pay for their 6 months quarantine.

-
 Elina


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## samurai

Elina said:


> They are all neutered prior to being shipped. They do not want other people breeding them which makes total sense as they also have to class them prior to sending them. This is to make sure that they are domestic elite which may be less then easy for your average person (without a lab and training) to do.
> 
> They are near enough £3k each and then you still have to pay for their 6 months quarantine.
> 
> -
> Elina



Thats good they neuter them. Do you know how much quarantine is or does it vary? I'm tempted and might start saving (although not neccesarily planning to get one, its a goal which might get me saving )

How are all your gorgeous foxies?


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## Soulwax

I would LOVE a fox.


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## Elina

samurai said:


> Thats good they neuter them. Do you know how much quarantine is or does it vary? I'm tempted and might start saving (although not neccesarily planning to get one, its a goal which might get me saving )
> 
> How are all your gorgeous foxies?


I am not sure as I have not talked to my sister for a few days and we are currently sorting out getting a quote. 

Harry, Elspeth, Inari, Kitsune and Sprite (okay she is a Papillon but she is very sure she is a fox:lol2 are doing great thanks! They truly are the best fur kids a girl could ask for:flrt:.
-
Elina

Oh here is a photo of Harry from this evening:


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## kellystewart

Elina said:


> I am not sure as I have not talked to my sister for a few days and we are currently sorting out getting a quote.
> 
> Harry, Elspeth, Inari, Kitsune and Sprite (okay she is a Papillon but she is very sure she is a fox:lol2 are doing great thanks! They truly are the best fur kids a girl could ask for:flrt:.
> -
> Elina
> 
> Oh here is a photo of Harry from this evening:
> image


Harry is a stunner!


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## Disgruntled

I adore foxes and would love to keep them. As a child I was obsessed with them, even though I'd never seen one. I had thought at one point of contacting some of the local pest control companies for a fox cub, they probably gas loads of the poor little things and would probably keep one back for £50 or something.. of course death might be preferable to living with me - and yes I know that keeping wild british foxes isn't legal ...but neither is speeding and who doesnt do that..lol


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## Elina

It is legal to keep red foxes so if they were to be PTS if you did not adopt them I would think it would be legal for you to have one but I am not 100% sure. Some rehab places sometimes let people adopt non releasable animals but I have no idea of what prior experience you would need to do this.
-
 Elina


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## Disgruntled

Well, I did look into it once, there is a fox charity and a rescue place, that's where I learnt that they love jam sandwiches apparently.. of course they also hammer home the point that they are not pets even when hand reared, they reach a certain point and then go a bit potty and wreck your house if you are daft enough to have one in there! We are lucky enough to live in the country with no near neighbours and we have half an acre so we could quite easily build an enclosure and if a fox cub was dropped in my lap, I would be keen to keep it but I suppose really I know it is wrong...sigh.


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## Jamiioo

@ Kare i also seen that documentary, i found it facinating how all the foxes bred for the tame traits began showing differences i.e. curly tail, colour differences, yet the control group of foxes bred for the wild traits remained the same. I didnt like the wire bottomed cages they were kept in though, given the amount of foxes there also i doubt they get out much at all 

@Elina What caused it to die before it arrived to your sister? Poor thing 

The fox in the top pic, its paws look out of proportion! Lol I Adore foxes! I dont know if i could ever keep one though, like my doggies a bit much, what are they like to keep? Ive had a peep at your blog once or twice before, seen your fennecs, so cute! :lol2:


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## Elina

> @Elina What caused it to die before it arrived to your sister? Poor thing


The vet that looked him (well it really as he was nutered) over said that he seemed to have been gived to little sedative for his size and woke up one the flight which worried him far and away too much.


> The fox in the top pic, its paws look out of proportion! Lol I Adore foxes! I dont know if i could ever keep one though, like my doggies a bit much, what are they like to keep? Ive had a peep at your blog once or twice before, seen your fennecs, so cute! :lol2:


Hehe I too thought the fox in the photo had HUGE paws.
Foxes are like foxes to keep really. I mean they are nothing like anything else! They are amazingly smart (I thought my dogs were smart until I met my foxes, they put them to shame). They are cunning, inquisitive, manipulative (this is H&E not Inair&Kit) little hoarders and I love them!:flrt:
It is hard to say what it is like...Just go read the blog more and you will get the idea:lol2:.

-
Elina


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## Nell

Hi Elina -I recognise you from the sugar glider forum, only just got around to making an account on RFUK! I was just wondering how much Corsaacs go for these days? This is very much an "in the future" kind of request, as I would love a pair, but can't atm as I've got a year left of uni, and -though my landlord may be an absolute sweety in regards to pets- I think foxes might be the last straw


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## bothrops

For those that are reading and are interested in a short 10 minutes presse of the story of the silver fox....



YouTube - The Silver Fox Experiment



Saw this the other day and wondered if any where available. £3K is a little outside my budget though!

Cheers

Andy


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## Nell

bothrops said:


> For those that are reading and are interested in a short 10 minutes presse of the story of the silver fox....
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube - The Silver Fox Experiment
> 
> 
> 
> Saw this the other day and wondered if any where available. £3K is a little outside my budget though!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andy


Thanks a lot for the link Andy, that is really fascinating! It's crazy how even implanted embryo's of non-tame foxes in tame mothers had the exact same traits! I'd be curious to see how a genetically tame foxy would react with a ferrel mother :idea:


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## Fionab

they look like miniature shelties!


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## Omerov1986

hmmm not sure who I'd prefer in this pic...








:mf_dribble:


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## Elina

Nell said:


> Hi Elina -I recognise you from the sugar glider forum, only just got around to making an account on RFUK! I was just wondering how much Corsaacs go for these days? This is very much an "in the future" kind of request, as I would love a pair, but can't atm as I've got a year left of uni, and -though my landlord may be an absolute sweety in regards to pets- I think foxes might be the last straw


Hi! Corsacs are normally about £1,700 for an adult pair. That is for your average untame ones the cost gets higher the younger and tamer they are.

-Elina


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## Devi

Disgruntled said:


> I adore foxes and would love to keep them. As a child I was obsessed with them, even though I'd never seen one. I had thought at one point of contacting some of the local pest control companies for a fox cub, they probably gas loads of the poor little things and would probably keep one back for £50 or something.. of course death might be preferable to living with me - and yes I know that keeping wild british foxes isn't legal ...but neither is speeding and who doesnt do that..lol


I used to volunteer in a rescue centre that rehabbed fox cubs when I was a teenager and always got told off for playing with them! They are so stunning though, and very friendly. Especially the hand reared ones.
I heard of an old lady who raised an orphan once and when he was a certain age she let him go in the garden but kept feeding him and treating him like a pet, he stayed tame and wandered in and out the house. I think if I could find a cub then that's what I'd do.


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## em_40

Anyone know whether they smell like the wild red foxes supposedly do? :whistling2:

(can't say I've ever felt that any of the foxes I've 'met' smelled, but I've not kept one in a house)


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## Elina

They are ment to smell less but noone is too sure seeing as there is only one guy outside Russia so far to have them and he avoids the question and keeps his outside.
-
 Elina


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## em_40

Ohright, I wasn't aware that it was only one person who had one. Do others in Russia have them as pets? or is there litterally just one that is kept as a pet? Weird... I would have thought there would have been more, I know they are expensive but so are a lot of exotics


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## Elina

There are lots kept in Russia just only one guy out of Russia has them at present.
My sisters will be arriving Sep/Oct whoo!
-Elina


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## em_40

Ahhright, I see...

Awesome, has your sister chosen it already? what's it look like?  
She must be very excited, I hope things turn out better this time around


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## Elina

She has chosen and she is very excited.
Thus far he (soon to be it) is just a black ball of fluff just like Valla my baby corsac is at the moment. They say he will be burgundy (look here if you want to know what that looks like http://farmbusiness.com/inventory/FoxColorGuide.html )
-
Elina


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## em_40

awww, baby foxes are so cute. 
I love your baby corsac, she's so gorgeous. I guess she was bed over here as she is so young, have any of your foxes ever needed to be quarentined or ere they all from UK?


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## Elina

All of mine are from the U.K. 
Gald you like Valla, I think everyone does hehe! She has been to so many of my friends houses and had so many treats from them! She has more toys then my big corsacs now. . . Well nearly :lol2:. 
-
Elina


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