# Spider & Pastel



## Pyro (Dec 18, 2008)

In a few years I'm going to hopefully get into breeding, and as well as breeding Spider morphs I am looking into maybe doing pastels. The main reason for these two is they're the best looking ones in my opinion. It's about the hobby not the money, but making money would be a bonus, so breeding 2 morphs out is a good idea in case the market for one collapses. Like I said, money is not as important as the snakes themselves though.

Although breeding, I intend to keep all the snakes in proper vivarium setups until they are sold, so I would buy a decent number of 2' vivariums and some 3's for my own adults. Caring for the snakes welfare etc would be my first concern, so although currently learning the genetics and reading up on breeding, I wouldn't try anything until I can properly house the required number of snakes.

I created this thread to ask some questions. I currently have a normal female Royal, and as I am looking to breed out Spiders and Pastels, I take it the best start would be getting another normal, a spider and a pastel. I would probably have 2 normal females, a male spider and a male pastel. Is that it, one female per male? 

Okay so can someone give me the percentage chance of the offspring from normal & spider and from normal & pastel. Are these both co-dominant genes? I think you can get super-pastels, or was that something else? 

Finally, if I ended up breeding a spider to a pastel, what would I get?


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

you might think you're doing the rigth thing...but you'll have no joy at all putting hatchling royals in 2ft vivs. seriously you may think it's the right thing, but small tubs are the thing to use for newly hatched royals. you'll just get eating problems.

pastel and spider are both co-dominant (well spider isn't quite, theres no super but don't worry about that, i'm simplifying), when bred to a normal statistically 50% will be pastel/spider. to produce super pastel you need to do pastel x pastel or super pastel x anything

crossing spider and pastel will make 25% normal, pastel, spider and bumblebee (spider and pastel in the same snake)


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## Blackecho (Jun 30, 2008)

Mason said:


> to produce super pastel you need to do pastel x pastel or *super pastel x anything*


Anything containing pastel.


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

Blackecho said:


> Anything containing pastel.


Er no, super pastel x normal can produce super pastels.


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## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

Mason said:


> Er no, super pastel x normal can produce super pastels.


aa x AA = aA...? (= pastel)

A super pastel is a homozygous co-dom. Cross a homozygous co-dom to a wild type and you get 100% heterozygous co-dom (ie pastels). For a gene to be homozygous (as you need to get a super pastel), you need to get a copy of that gene from each parent. As the normal can only pass on "normal" genes at the pastel locus, you can only get hets from it...


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

HadesDragons said:


> aa x AA = aA...? (= pastel)
> 
> A super pastel is a homozygous co-dom. Cross a homozygous co-dom to a wild type and you get 100% heterozygous co-dom (ie pastels). For a gene to be homozygous (as you need to get a super pastel), you need to get a copy of that gene from each parent. As the normal can only pass on "normal" genes at the pastel locus, you can only get hets from it...


 
just had this convo with Sami. I'm pretty drunk and yes I was wrong. Through my haze of stella I was thinking about bee x normal, which of course can produce bees and applied that to super pastel, it being the same gene of course it can't pass both on. I do know my basics honest... must not pretend to know what i'm on about when i'm drunk  apologies to all!

If it wasn't a super pastel, something like a bumblebee, a BEL made form two different co-dom morphs etc then when bred to a normal you can prodce the DOUBLE CO DOM ( rather than **** co dom) snakes.


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## GarySpedding (Feb 24, 2008)

basically:

Spider: S normal: s

Pastel: T Normal: t

Super Pastel genotype: SS

Homozygous spider: SS

Bee Can be/have the genotype of the following combinations: 
SsPP SSPP SsPp

The SSPP is what youd get when breeding two Bees(The Bees having Genotypes of either SSPp or SsPp obv higher chance if both bees are SSPp if bredTogether if you hit it lucky youd get a Homozygous Spider Super Pastel (dunno if that is a different morph or if its known as a super bee or something.....)

if your working with Hetrozygous animals then the chances greatly reduce on producing supers for example speaking specifically about Pastels for a moment Super Pastels etc.... You can only get Pastels if you breed a Super to a Normal however is you breed a Pastel to a normal you can get Pp offspring or pp offspring..... breeding a Pp Pastel to a Pp Pastel will give PP pastels Pp pastels and pp Pastels in a 1:2:1 ratio breeding a super pastel to a super will give only super pastels.....

Specifically about spiders for a moment... if the spider is Homozygous baring in mind theres no physical difference between hets and homs if breeding 2 hom spiders youd get only Spiders if you breed an SS spider to an Ss spider you will get only spiders if you breed an SS spider to an ss Spider you will get 50% spider 50% normals... if you breed an Ss spider to an Ss spider you have same as the PpxPp for pastel you could make an SS spider 2 Ss Spider and 1 ss Spider that being a 1:2:1 ratio...

crossing the two morphs is not tht difficult to work around:

SSppx ssPP = alls SsPp (bees)
SsppxssPp = 1 bee 1 spider 1 pastel 1 normal even ratio
SsPPxSsPp

and so on and so on etc etc i cba to work them all out and post now i may return if people find what ive posted a bit confusing ;d


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## Blackecho (Jun 30, 2008)

Mason said:


> Er no, super pastel x normal can produce super pastels.


Haha - you've been Stella'd :lol2:


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

Blackecho said:


> Haha - you've been Stella'd :lol2:


Very much so i'm afraid


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Mason said:


> If it wasn't a super pastel, something like a bumblebee, a BEL made form two different co-dom morphs etc then when bred to a normal you can prodce the DOUBLE CO DOM ( rather than **** co dom) snakes.


One thing to keep in mind is that Mojave, Lesser, Phantom, Butter, Mystery Dilute and Russo Lemon Line het Leucistic are all behaving like alleles of the same gene - they're not all different genes. Thus far, in the two BluEL sets of crossings I'm aware of (Lesser Mojave and Lesser Phantom) the offspring were EITHER Lesser OR the other trait - there were absolutely no normals or BluELs in a statistically significant number of offspring.

In that respect, the White-Snake complex of genes is more like "Super Pastel" than it is like "bumblebee".



GarySpedding said:


> Specifically about spiders for a moment... if the spider is Homozygous baring in mind theres no physical difference between hets and homs if breeding 2 hom spiders youd get only Spiders if you breed an SS spider to an Ss spider you will get only spiders if you breed an SS spider to an ss Spider you will get 50% spider 50% normals...


Nope - if you breed a homozygous Spider (SS) to a non-spider (ss) you will get 100% Ss heterozygous Spiders. The homozygous spider does not have a "non-spider" allele to give.


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## GarySpedding (Feb 24, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> Nope - if you breed a homozygous Spider (SS) to a non-spider (ss) you will get 100% Ss heterozygous Spiders. The homozygous spider does not have a "non-spider" allele to give.


Erm yes i think you will find if you breed a Ss spider to an ss you will get 50% spiders as the offspring produced if working on a 4 egg ratio would be Ss ss Ss ss 2:2.....


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## Blackecho (Jun 30, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> Nope - if you breed a homozygous Spider *(SS)* to a non-spider (ss) you will get 100% Ss heterozygous Spiders. The homozygous spider does not have a "non-spider" allele to give.





GarySpedding said:


> Erm yes i think you will find if you breed a *Ss* spider to an ss you will get 50% spiders as the offspring produced if working on a 4 egg ratio would be Ss ss Ss ss 2:2.....


Gary, you have changed the SS into and Ss to fit your answer? - Originally you said SS.


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