# DartFrog.co.uk - Opinions?



## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Just interested in the general consensus of the livestock sold on dartfrog.co.uk website - dart frogs in particular.

Good quality, well cared for etc?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Quite a few people on here use him- and seem happy with what they get.


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## Gaz_dbd (Apr 30, 2009)

ive only ever used them for plants,

they seem good

my old work bought some from there and they came in good condition


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> Just interested in the general consensus of the livestock sold on dartfrog.co.uk website - dart frogs in particular.
> 
> Good quality, well cared for etc?


 hey mate,we go there often(its the only good side of not living in cornwall anymore for us:lol2 marc's been very kind and helpful to us,we have frogs from him all good so far.But i know how difficult it is for you down there,i would really try to see stuff before you buy.Actually mate its worth you going all the way up here just to see Marc's setup/shop,i guess depending on where you are it might be around 4 hrs,but apart from frogday its the best place for you to actually see all these frogs in one place,ha and worth talking to him too
Stu


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

He does deliver frogs, i know it's not ideal but it's just so far to travel for us down here. 

I guess he must have shipped frogs plenty before and have a reputable delivery company etc so the frogs arent caused too much stress. Not sure what happens if they arrived DOA though.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

The courier he uses for animals is TNT. I have a fair few bad experiences with TNT, smashing tanks, delivering my parcel to the wrong person etc. I had some tree frogs delivered via them once, 1 of the 3 froze to death. They just aren't animal couriers.

Marc's Ts and Cs make it clear he offers no live arrival guarantee on frogs sent in this way.

I know it's a journey for you bud, but your absolute BEST bet is to try to come to UK Frog Day. More choice, no couriers AND you can get advice from experienced hobbyists. Other than that, try to find a breeder local to you.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> He does deliver frogs, i know it's not ideal but it's just so far to travel for us down here.
> 
> I guess he must have shipped frogs plenty before and have a reputable delivery company etc so the frogs arent caused too much stress. Not sure what happens if they arrived DOA though.


 Personal opinion this mate,see them first,our machets were bought for us ok but by a guy thats forgotton more than i've learnt yet. J i think there is someone down there around the truo area do some homework,they be a rep or fish shop thats for sure...can't be that many,you might get lucky, try tuckerboy...Danny he's newquay he might know of some,there are guys keping darts around you mate....its just finding them!!! Marc does some form of guarantee though first week i think but you must contact him over that,mate he will stop shipping if it gets cold but will post that on his site
Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I`ve bought dry goods and frogs from Dartfrog on many occasions and NEVER had a problem.
Goods have went missing in the post twice (thats a shock) and all it`s taken is a phone call and i`ve had replacements sent out.
Theres always someone who has a complaint, thats just life, but theres no such thing as the perfect shop.

Mike


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Hey guys, can I just remind some of you that there is a no naming and shaming policy on RFUK. 

It's fine to discuss specific facts but not general opinions or perceptions of a business or seller. 




> We welcome you to talk about your experiences when visiting a reptile shop, however we ask that you be constructive and only post about fact not personal opinions or perceptions.
> 
> We dont allow threads that name and shame shops or other reptile related business', often people's personal opinions can be unfounded and very damaging to the business when they are posted on such an active site. The business also usually finds out quite quickly and subsequently RFUK could be open to threats of legal action. It is unfair for RFUK to be forced to consult legal advice because you decided to post on our site, therefore any threads in which a business is negatively named we reserve the right to remove if necessary.
> 
> ...


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## chrism (Jul 5, 2007)

GRB said:


> Hey guys, can I just remind some of you that there is a no naming and shaming policy on RFUK.
> 
> It's fine to discuss specific facts but not general opinions or perceptions of a business or seller.


Did my reply get deleted? Thought it was all factual etc?


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## chrism (Jul 5, 2007)

Not sure if my reply was deleted or pc crashed

I put personally, never had good experinces.

* Bought moss- infested tank with slugs. Rang for advice (not to complain), got a negative response.
* Bought a pair of day geckos. Covered in mites.
* Bought a pair of Cornuta- paid £25 'specialist courier'. Arrived by Royal Mail- 1 DOA, 1 died next day.
Only got refund on cost of animals, not p&p, had to post back dead animals at my expense, and only got a refund after said I had photos of the RM package, dead stock etc.

Load of companies out there give better service. ENT (German, but they sell all the products DF does- he buys lots from them!). Rainforest vivs, etc.

I advise where possible to buy from breeders / keepers.

The community is all about helping each other.

A few keepers in Devon / Cornwall.

I also have family in Cornwall, and have delivered many times for people when I travel down.

Chris


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Chris,

in your post that was deleted, you mentioned you knew of some dart keepers down here, any that you can recommend or suggest i try?


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## chrism (Jul 5, 2007)

Cornish-J said:


> Chris,
> 
> in your post that was deleted, you mentioned you knew of some dart keepers down here, any that you can recommend or suggest i try?


Easier one dude- join dendroworld.co.uk, and put a post up asking if any local keepers.

If no joy, pop me a pm and i'll send some contacts.

Not sure why my post was deleted- Mod's put no naming and shaming, but the name of the company was in the title?!


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Ok Chris will do. 

If you're able to send a couple contacts across that would be brilliant too though


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Just tried to register but unable to find any link to take you to a registration page .. weird!

May need those contacts after all Chris lol


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

chrism said:


> Easier one dude- join dendroworld.co.uk, and put a post up asking if any local keepers.
> 
> If no joy, pop me a pm and i'll send some contacts.
> 
> *Not sure why my post was deleted- Mod's put no naming and shaming, but the name of the company was in the title?!*


ditto my post has also been removed as i had similar experience's, i did not name and shame or doing anything similar so not sure why mine was deleted either. 

Jay


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Probably because you are sailing close to the wind guys. There is a VERY thin line between "posting the truth" and "posting defamatory statements". A think line that big forums like this have to be VERY careful of. Defending a defamation suit is costly even before it goes beyond a cease and desist letter...

Trust me, RFUK mods let us get away with a LOT more than say PFK (I was a senior mod on the PFK forums once), but I will lay odds they get the same number of threats from legal teams with a love of Google. :lol2:

My advice would be that if you want to say something negative, do so privately. We all have different experiences with stores, the negative ones are no less valid than the positive ones. The thing is though, stores don't persue legal recompense when you say something nice about them. :lol2:

NB. I am not suggesting Dartfrog would even consider going that route, just that the forum team can't have one rule for those that do, and another for those that wont.

Ade

PS. Mods, if you aren't happy with me even mentioning this, then I will have no complaints if you chose to remove this post.

PPS. Posting about negative experiences where it is easily identifiable who it is about Jay (as is the case here as the thread is marked as been about dartfrog in the title) is naming and shaming bud, even if you feel you have valid reasons. The burden of proof would be on RFUK to prove you were telling the truth, which is very very difficult for a forum to do.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolfenrook said:


> Probably because you are sailing close to the wind guys. There is a VERY thin line between "posting the truth" and "posting defamatory statements". A think line that big forums like this have to be VERY careful of. Defending a defamation suit is costly even before it goes beyond a cease and desist letter...
> 
> Trust me, RFUK mods let us get away with a LOT more than say PFK (I was a senior mod on the PFK forums once), but I will lay odds they get the same number of threats from legal teams with a love of Google. :lol2:
> 
> ...


All very true. I've modded some large forums too and i know the issues surrounding it, however my response would have been to remove the name from the title and any proceeding posts rather than the posts themselves as it's valid information, but that's just me :Na_Na_Na_Na:. Though i can see both sides of the action. But i do agree we get away with murder here which is very easy to get used to. 

I can understand its removal so not overly bothered, but doesn't mean i can't have a good moan, I am British after all lol. Also it shows Chris he's not going mad lol. 

and you missed a good night last night, we even had turtle races lol. 

jay


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## spiny tails (Apr 12, 2008)

had no problems at all with Mark, very down to earth and knows his stuff, all of the livestock I bought was in excellent condition and would buy from him again no probs. 

if you have never been and visited his set up then I reccomend you do, well worth the trip.:2thumb:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> Just tried to register but unable to find any link to take you to a registration page .. weird!
> 
> May need those contacts after all Chris lol


I seem to remember they have limited opportunities/windows to register- dunno why, though.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

It's the ONLY dart frog specialist retail store in the UK. You will get people with good experiences, you will get people with bad experiences.

What it really comes down to is, he has overheads to meet. Hobbyist breeders don't. Which means you pay less to hobbyists. That's how retail works.

The rest is all beside the point really. I stand by my statement that you will see the best choice, and best prices, at UK Frog Day.

Ade


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Dartfrog = Marmite :gasp:


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## chrism (Jul 5, 2007)

Cornish-J said:


> Chris,
> 
> in your post that was deleted, you mentioned you knew of some dart keepers down here, any that you can recommend or suggest i try?





Ron Magpie said:


> I seem to remember they have limited opportunities/windows to register- dunno why, though.


They limit registration to reduce spam etc.


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## chrism (Jul 5, 2007)

colinm said:


> Dartfrog = Marmite :gasp:


Careful Colin, Marmite is a brand name- might get told off for advertising...


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Yup. Some love him, some hate him, me, I'm neutral.

I HAVE had frogs from him in the past, sometimes with problems, mostly without. He's tended to be pretty fair with me. Plants are pot luck, somteimes the post kills em.

What I am saying though is, TNT are NOT animal couriers, nor do they claim to be. So things going wrong having darts couriered is a matter of lottery. You get lucky, or you get unlucky. I dislike gambling like that, hence I always collected in person for darts.

It's since become possible to get frogs from other hobbyists, and UK Frog Day, so I do.

Ade


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

chrism said:


> Careful Colin, Marmite is a brand name- might get told off for advertising...


 o.k,o.k yeast extract spread, by product of the brewing industry. :2thumb:


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## chrism (Jul 5, 2007)

Wolfenrook said:


> TNT are NOT animal couriers, nor do they claim to be.


And the same stands for Royal Mail, who publise it as also illegal with their services.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

chrism said:


> And the same stands for Royal Mail, who publise it as also illegal with their services.


Yup, and pretty much every other 'normal courier' as well. Although, pretty sure they say it's prohibited, rather than it's illegal. Yup, here it is http://www2.royalmail.com/despatch-inward-mail-services/hints-and-tips/prohibited-goods.

The only animal couriers nowadays are actual animal couriers.

Ade


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolfenrook said:


> Yup, and pretty much every other 'normal courier' as well.
> 
> The only animal couriers nowadays are actual animal couriers.
> 
> Ade


TNT are the only legal, registered animal delivery service apart from the specialist specific animals only couriers. All be it i dont think TNT should be used for animals but it is still legal where as royal mail is not. 

if that make's sense.

Jay


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Jay, as I pointed out in my previous post (obviously edited whilst you were typing yours), it's not that it's illegal, it's that it's prohibited. Doesn't mean the same thing.

As to TNT, I can't even find their terms and conditions, or even any reference to live animals, on their website. But thrown into the back of a normal van/truck is not a good way to transport live animals, especially dart frogs. They seem happy to carry live animals, enough people use them for them, but I wouldn't be comfortable with this.

Ade


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolfenrook said:


> Jay, as I pointed out in my previous post (obviously edited whilst you were typing yours), it's not that it's illegal, it's that it's prohibited. Doesn't mean the same thing.
> 
> As to TNT, I can't even find their terms and conditions, or even any reference to live animals, on their website. But thrown into the back of a normal van/truck is not a good way to transport live animals, especially dart frogs. They seem happy to carry live animals, enough people use them for them, but I wouldn't be comfortable with this.
> 
> Ade


You used to be able to purchase an account with TNT that allowed for the delivery of animals. This meant that when the box's were being delivered they were marked accordingly and where stored in approiate heated rooms during delivery and with specialist drivers. However, the deliverers were undertaken with other packages. The treatment was never good IMO but it was and efficient and cheap way to transporting animals at the time that was legal. The is the method favored by most wholesalers and shops. I believe about 2 years ago TNT changed there T&C's so that no more accounts could be sold that dealt with animals as they want to phase it out, but that those who still held accounts can transport animals legally. 

Hence the only legal methods that does not involve braking terms and conditions either are TNT (if the seller as the correct license) and a specialist animal transport with the correct DEFRA license. 

Royal Mail are only legally (legally as they do not have license to cover vertebrates) allowed to transport invertebrates. According to the term's and conditions this is also only allowed between registered entomological suppliers. Which also means the delivery of live food by post is not allowed. I know of a few places that have said stuff but that doesn't stop most of us. if royal mail actually clamped down on this we would be a tad done for. 

I only know as i had to look into the legalities of it all some time ago. 

Jay


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Jay, you might find this useful http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/3249/contents/made. Looks to me like you are repeating a lot of 3rd party information.

Further, please be cautious when mixing the words illegal, unlawful and prohibited. They all mean slightly different things. In fact, I would avoid using the words illegal or unlawful at all, just to avoid any risk of accidental defamation. Better to use words like prohibited, or not allowed.  UNLESS you are a lawyer type person, who knows the law back to front.  Othewise it's too easy to using the wrong term. Heck, none of us are lawyers, so who know's who is right? I have no intention of seeking legal advice in this. lol

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Jay, you might find this useful http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/3249/contents/made. Looks to me like you are repeating a lot of 3rd party information.
> 
> Further, please be cautious when mixing the words illegal, unlawful and prohibited. They all mean slightly different things. In fact, I would avoid using the words illegal or unlawful at all, just to avoid any risk of accidental defamation. Better to use words like prohibited, or not allowed.  UNLESS you are a lawyer type person, who knows the law back to front.  Othewise it's too easy to using the wrong term. *Heck, none of us are lawyers,* so who know's who is right? I have no intention of seeking legal advice in this. lol
> 
> Ade


Surely *some* lawyers keep frogs? :hmm:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolfenrook said:


> Jay, you might find this useful http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/3249/contents/made. Looks to me like you are repeating a lot of 3rd party information.
> 
> Further, please be cautious when mixing the words illegal, unlawful and prohibited. They all mean slightly different things. In fact, I would avoid using the words illegal or unlawful at all, just to avoid any risk of accidental defamation. Better to use words like prohibited, or not allowed.
> 
> Ade


Stop editing your post's after i comment lol. 

The link you have provided doesn't work, though if I am right, i have read the document you are referring to before.

I stand by what i have said as i was very careful with my choice of words. Unless something has changed very recently, transportation of vertebrate animals, as a business, requires DEFRA approval (not very hard to get) and adequate insurance. Sending prohibited items through these services carries a risk of prosecution. Please note at no point (just doubled checked) did i state that act it self was illegal merely against T&C's, though the legalities of this could also be easily argued. .

I can provide references for the TNT claim if you wish to see these. As myself and others still have documents regarding this and you can see the change in T&C's on their website. As i still know many people who hold animal accounts with them. I can get this posted up tomorrow when im at home and have a spare few moments to go through old documents.

The delivery of vertebrate animals via royal mail is clearly prohibited on there T&C's, as you highlighted above. However, since they do not hold the correct DEFRA paperwork work to deliver vertebrates they would also be acting illegally if they knowingly took this on without correct licensees in place. I am not sure on the legal aspect of this, if this was to occur without royal's mail knowledge, but i have not commented on this. My understanding would be, that do knowingly sending a prohibited items through said service would carry a risk of prosecution, though this is only my opinion. 

I will admit that I have not personally researched the information on the delivery of invertebrates via royal mail to only entomological suppliers. However this came from a very good source in my eyes and was apparently a recent amendment to royal mails T&C's. I will have to check this out when i have more time. But my understanding is that this amendment in it's current form could be argued either way. 

However, personally i would only collect an animal in person, as i don't trust others. if i can't collect it in person, i go without. This does often mean i travel long distances at often a high cost but i feel it's worth it. 

Jay


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Jay, seriously, I really can't be bothered to argue with you, I have better things to do with my time.

However:-

1) Link works just fine, try clicking it, it even works in your quote of it.
2) I edited WHILST you were commenting, not after. lol
3) Read the quote you made of me again, then consider your reply again. lol I did not tell YOU specifically to be careful, look back, you will find plenty of posts containing the word illegal.

Seriously, I don't want to come off as an ass here purely because you misunderstood what I wrote.

Cheers

Ade


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

PS. (so you don't accuse me of editing after you comment :Na_Na_Na_Na. When I say misunderstand, I include the possibility that I was unclear that it was not aimed at you in particular.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Ron Magpie said:


> Surely *some* lawyers keep frogs? :hmm:


Or, alternatively, no, they merely provide them with an abode, with neither contract nor promise, within their home, within the laws of the land, both under statute and implied law. :lol2:

Ade


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolfenrook said:


> Jay, seriously, I really can't be bothered to argue with you, I have better things to do with my time.
> 
> However:-
> 
> ...


Was never and argument in my eyes, just a discussion of info. Didn't mean it to come off that i was having a go at you, was just putting forward all the information I had. Law and the study of it is just something I enjoy.

it could be the work computers blocking the link or something as they have an issues with certain things and often block stupid links. 

I agree with you many people (in this thread and others) do often confuse the terms and I assumed since you quoted me that it was me you were referring to. Since it wasn't i'll take back for the first bit of my post lol.

To be it just comes off as a discussion, nothing more. 

Anyway we have kind of moved on from the main discussion. 

Jay


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolfenrook said:


> PS. (so you don't accuse me of editing after you comment :Na_Na_Na_Na. When I say misunderstand, I include the possibility that I was unclear that it was not aimed at you in particular.


pfft lol i'll let you off then :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Gah, this is why written text is so rubbish. Sorry Jay, I meant argue as in present an opposing view, as in the OTHER definition of argue. I would have done better to have used the word debate.  Too many words in my head bud. lol

Anwyway, agreed, gone way off topic. To get back onto topic. You will get some folks who don't like DF, some folks who are netural, some folk who love DF. That's the nature of retail business. Either way, I still PERSONALLY would not have dart frogs sent via courier or mail.

Ade


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolfenrook said:


> Gah, this is why written text is so rubbish. Sorry Jay, I meant argue as in present an opposing view, as in the OTHER definition of argue. I would have done better to have used the word debate.  Too many words in my head bud. lol
> 
> * Anwyway, agreed, gone way off topic. To get back onto topic. You will get some folks who don't like DF, some folks who are netural, some folk who love DF. That's the nature of retail business. Either way, I still PERSONALLY would not have dart frogs sent via courier or mail.*
> 
> Ade


Now that we can agree on. 

I agree i hate debating or having detailed discussions via text as it can be so easily misread wrongly interpreted etc etc. 

On topic the sites i always use are pollywog.co.uk, justairplants.com and richie at rainforest vivariums.

jay


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Richie sometimes sells frogs out of those 3, but I don't think he has any tincs, leucs or auratus. I don't think he couriers them yet either, and to be honest the defra reptile courier I tried seemed a bit slow to send frogs with (just vivs here, no frogs), could just be me though.

I know I keep saying this, but if you can make it to UK Frog Day, DO. There WILL be leucs there for certain, they WILL be cheaper, and you WONT have to mess around with couriers. If you can't keep hunting for breeders local to you, but don't hold your breath. Only guy I found fairly close to me (Staffordshire) was Gaz (from who I bought some GOREGEOUS and healthy Ameerega bassieri 'sisa'), and often the breeder you do find local to you will be breeding the frogs you DON'T want or aren't ready for.

That's the thing with this hobby. To get the best deal, quite often you have to travel. UK Frog Day makes this a LOT simpler. Something else you can try as well as finding a local breeder, see if anybody has a spot in their car who is coming to UK Frog Day. They may give you a lift in exchange for you chipping in on fuel costs. Look at it this way, TNT costs what £25? Dedicated rep/animal couriers more than this. Add an average saving of about at least £10 a frog (guessing here, so don't hold me to that), you buy 4 frogs that's £40. Total at least about £65? Shish, fuel wouldn't cost that if you chip in to get a lift, a ticket costs £5, there HAS to be somebody down your way coming up and going back after. It's not like going to HAMM or Dutch Frog Day.  Sunday October 16th bud, but I believe if that's too soon the next will be June next year, giving you longer.  Did I mention the bonus of getting to meet your fellow hobbyists and get advice, tips etc? 

Ade


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## madcatfergus (Dec 7, 2009)

Ive used Dartfrog for a while now and Marc has always been really accommodating and helpful. He got me some WTF for a VERY reasonable price and they are doing wonderfully. I have recently bought a tonne of stuff off him for a massive viv I needed and Im pleased with everything (Im not easily pleased :whistling2. I have had deliveries in the past that have arrived just fine but now I tend to drive up to get my loot (this is just so I can get my hand on it quicker) . I would be more than happy to get any of his frogs and when I popped in today they all looked happy and healthy. 
As with anything though it is upto personal experience but as far as mine goes I would not need or want to go anywhere else.


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## leonh (Nov 19, 2008)

I'm personally have the view that Mark at dartfrog is very helpfull and knowledgable,and does a great selection of supplies and his site is easy to access all departments,i do agree some other sites are also worthwhile,but for me in my situation i would not of really got off the ground if it wasn't for dartfrog as you can imagine with NO contacts no passport/still lol, i was pretty screwed so it was nice that mark came along.and to be honest is still front runner in specialist amphibian shops in the uk.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

leonh said:


> I'm personally have the view that Mark at dartfrog is very helpfull and knowledgable,and does a great selection of supplies and his site is easy to access all departments,i do agree some other sites are also worthwhile,but for me in my situation i would not of really got off the ground if it wasn't for dartfrog as you can imagine with NO contacts no passport/still lol, i was pretty screwed so it was nice that mark came along.and to be honest is still front runner in specialist amphibian shops in the uk.


Well said, this was exactly the same position that I was in.

Mike


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## bronz (Feb 1, 2008)

It definitely helps having one dedicated shop when you're new to the hobby. Over time as my contacts and knowledge have grown, mainly through forums like this, I've ended up buying more and more from other hobbyists and sites and less from Marc, but I like to use him for some stuff. Apart from other considerations he's a great portal for new folk as mentioned, and if his business goes down through lack of patronage it would be a blow to the average starter hobbyist.

In terms of service I've had a generally good service from him with some minor niggles but nothing to stop me going back. He can be tricky to get hold of at times but when you do he sorts stuff out quickly and professionally, on one occassion he even stopped off virtually at my house on a trip back from Germany with some new frogs I'd ordered!

It'll be interesting to see how his business holds up as the hobby expands and more and more people start doing their own thing online.


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

hiya
mark is busy alot of the time but i've never had any problems with him.

dart-frog shop imo is an essental for the hobby


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