# Fighting The APA



## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

I am unsure if we have an organised offensive in the UK against the APA and their like and if we do please ignore me but We have many knowledgeable and qualified people on this forum so we should, with a bit of organisation, be able to elect some articulate members, or non members for that matter, who can speak on our behalf and put forward a counter argument (If it hasn’t already been done) and show a united front against the APA and other similar groups who are intent on attacking herpetologists whether they be amateur or professional. At the moment they just seem to be kicking our arse, and I feel they are gaining momentum.

How do people feel about an action committee that will include individuals who are experienced and also articulate qualified scientists/Herpers who are pro our cause who can put forward our side and lend some weight to the argument.

They are using an argument based on reptiles being hardwired not to thrive in captivity and they are using undercover investigations to highlight bad examples of animal care at Hamm and other places on their website which makes reptile keepers look bad in general.

There are zoo and wildlife parks all over the country which have example of reptiles surviving and often breeding in captivity, which are run by professionals who would not agree and are probably better qualified than the APA to comment, and this is just one example of their whole argument being flawed. We need to mobilize or we're going to lose more ground.

If anyone knows of some likely people who can get together and formulate even a standard response to their attacks and someone who could be a spokesperson/s it would be a start.

We also need a lawyer who can find a way for us to have expos. There must be a loophole that allows us certain types of venues to sell Reptiles at certain times, whether it be classified as something else other than a market or a show. Perhaps they could be held on private property rather than council owned. Them shutting down the shows is an easy battleground for them to win on and it’s giving credence to their cause. If we could keep the shows going and have an expert spokesperson/s that can articulately undermine the flaws in their argument it would push them back a bit. We can also use propaganda such as people with healthy animals, particularly older established animals who are obviously content around their owners, which would show another side to things. Reptiles that appear to be more humanised would be good examples of this, but this would probably be more obvious in Lizards than snakes.

Any ideas would be useful

A pro reptile/herpetology name for the committee would also be good. This name could represent healthy animals and hopefully would become synonymous with happy, healthy reptiles and respectable informed reptile keepers.

I put this forward only as a suggestion as I am unsure how involved and proactive organisations like the BHS want to be in this matter. I’m sure RFUK is not the only place that potential people for this committee dwell but there are a lot of us so some people among us might have some suggestions.

What do you think? Am I off the mark with this?

Andy


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

a lot of work is already being done (and has been done) by the Federation of British Herpetologists (Federation of British Herpetologists), Chris Newman along with others here on the forum


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## Cockys Royals (Jun 28, 2008)

Im all for helping our cause, but no funds available etc. But any other way I can help let me know.


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

Chris Newman is the man!


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

I know I'm signing up but will wait until new memberships start in janurary


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

join in on the thread in general herp chat, there are some interesting debates and colaborations going on. 

Jay


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

I personally think that any group like the APA just gets looked upon as a militant bunch of tree huggers who should be avoided. The same would go for an anti APA kind of group.

They've been going for years but yet nobody seems to take a blind bit of notice of them.. do you really want to be the same?


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

Meko said:


> I personally think that any group like the APA just gets looked upon as a militant bunch of tree huggers who should be avoided. The same would go for an anti APA kind of group.
> 
> They've been going for years but yet nobody seems to take a blind bit of notice of them.. do you really want to be the same?



I think the fact they have shut down shows now and set about shutting down all shows has caused a bit of a stir... now people are taking notice


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## kerrithsoden (Dec 6, 2009)

I fear that it would be fighting a losing battle, for every person that does care for their reptiles properly, there is another 10 that dont.
if it were up to me, everyone who owned reptiles in captivity would have to take an aptitude test for whatever species they wanted to keep to prove that they know how to care for them


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

kerrithsoden said:


> I fear that it would be fighting a losing battle, for every person that does care for their reptiles properly, there is another 10 that dont.
> if it were up to me, everyone who owned reptiles in captivity would have to take an aptitude test for whatever species they wanted to keep to prove that they know how to care for them


id do that for people wanting kids...lol


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## kerrithsoden (Dec 6, 2009)

ambyglam said:


> id do that for people wanting kids...lol


 
as would i! but then you get the whole human rights thing,
if i had it my way, all smackheads would be spayed and neutered so as to not breed into more jobless smackheads

but i digress


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

kerrithsoden said:


> as would i! but then you get the whole human rights thing,
> if i had it my way, all smackheads would be spayed and neutered so as to not breed into more jobless smackheads
> 
> but i digress


tadaaaaa

wanna run the country with me...

Human rights come to those who earn them... act like a human you have rights, behave like an animal...human rights need not apply!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Uromastyxman said:


> We also need a lawyer who can find a way for us to have expos. There must be a loophole that allows us certain types of venues to sell Reptiles at certain times


We don't need a "loophole" in order to hold Breeder's Meetings.

Breeders' Meetings are *already* covered in the Pet Animals Act 1951 and the Animal Welfare Act 2006. 

Selling animals in the course of a BUSINESS requires a pet shop licence, and you cannot sell animals AS A BUSINESS in a street, road, public place or market.

As per this:



> Provided that--
> 
> (a) a person shall not be deemed to keep a pet shop by reason only of his keeping or selling pedigree animals bred by him, or the offspring of an animal kept by him as a pet;
> 
> (b) where a person carries on a business of selling animals as pets in conjunction with a business of breeding pedigree animals, and the local authority are satisfied that the animals so sold by him (in so far as they are not pedigree animals bred by him) are animals which were acquired by him with a view to being used, if suitable, for breeding or show purposes but have subsequently been found by him not to be suitable or required for such use, the local authority may if they think fit direct that the said person shall not be deemed to keep a pet shop by reason only of his carrying on the first-mentioned business.


You do not legally require a pet shop licence to sell the offspring of your own pets / pedigree animals.
You do not legally require a pet shop licence to sell breeding pedigree animals that are surplus to your own requirements or no longer fit your breeding program.

Selling hobby-bred animals as a HOBBY - not a business - is not illegal under the legislation they're trying to prosecute under.

Hobby breeders of many species have been having shows for decades - note that the APA is not at this time trying to get rodent shows stopped!


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## Row'n'Bud (Jun 13, 2010)

Unfortunately too many people seem to have the view of "ignore them and they'll go away"...

Regretably it's too late for this attitude now as these ativists have gathered up funds, members and momentum for years and are hard set on causing problems for us...never forget THESE PEOPLE ARE FANATICS , not interested in animal welfare but simply animal rights !!

They have hit the exotic bird trade hard for years now and we are simply their new target, using peoples inbuilt fear and repulsion for reptiles, bugs ,etc along with a pitiful "they carry salmonella" scare campaign.

If we don't unite and make our voices public they will white wash our hobby before we even know it has happened in the back rooms of power so to speak.
These people are good at what they do and have lots of practice and numerous contacts , luckily for us the FBH has been onto their activities for quite some time now or we would be totally blind to their activity.


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## kerrithsoden (Dec 6, 2009)

ambyglam said:


> tadaaaaa
> 
> wanna run the country with me...
> 
> Human rights come to those who earn them... act like a human you have rights, behave like an animal...human rights need not apply!


 
DONE!!! I'll start making posters!


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

cool, ill get the t-shirts printed!


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Meko said:


> I personally think that any group like the APA just gets looked upon as a militant bunch of tree huggers who should be avoided. The same would go for an anti APA kind of group.
> 
> *They've been going for years but yet nobody seems to take a blind bit of notice of them.. do you really want to be the same?*


Some one seems to be taking notice of their lies. The FBH spent over 10K last year on legal fees, fighting councils that were trying to stop our shows based on lies provided by the APA. 
We are now fighting against their attempts to cause trouble re this years Kempton park show and their attempts to stop next years event as well as several other actions against shows still to be hald that I can't talk about at this moment.

Ignore this bunch of tree huggers at your peril.

Gordon Glasson
FBH VC


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

kerrithsoden said:


> I fear that it would be fighting a losing battle, *for every person that does care for their reptiles properly, there is another 10 that dont.*
> if it were up to me, everyone who owned reptiles in captivity would have to take an aptitude test for whatever species they wanted to keep to prove that they know how to care for them


Can you provide evidence to back up that statement?

Gordon Glasson
FBH VC


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Natrix said:


> Some one seems to be taking notice of their lies. The FBH spent over 10K last year on legal fees, fighting councils that were trying to stop our shows based on lies provided by the APA.
> We are now fighting against their attempts to cause trouble re this years Kempton park show and their attempts to stop next years event as well as several other actions against shows still to be hald that I can't talk about at this moment.
> 
> Ignore this bunch of tree huggers at your peril.
> ...


how much have they actually managed though compared to the thousands they've spent? From memory they've only stopped one show and that was because the council couldn't be arsed arguing and just stopped it?

Obviously maybe ignore is the wrong word but they seem to be a bunch of militant tree huggers hell bent on banning everything. From what i understand of your organisation you all do it without banging the drums and making too much noise - which is the right way to go about it. Unfortunately a lot of people who reply to these threads and want to fight them go about it by being the anti APA and want to make as much noise as they do...

There's defending keeping reptiles as pets and there's being weird reptile owners who go over the top in defending their right to own them.


Personally though i don't think calling it a 'hobby' helps much either. To me it sounds as though it's declassifying them as animals and reclassifying them as a past time.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

I think that I can safely say that every show in the last two years has been attacked and about 80% of them have been stopped at some point by the local council. It has been the work of the FBH that has got them re-started again, hence the 10K plus of legal bills last year.

The shows are only the tip of the ice berg. The FBH attends regular meetings with DEFRA, the police, CiTIES and several other Government recognised groups such as CAWC to stand up for the rights of reptile keepers and stop the likes of APA from getting regulations pushed through against us by using their lies to panic the Government MP's.

Gordon Glasson
FBH VC



Meko said:


> how much have they actually managed though compared to the thousands they've spent? From memory they've only stopped one show and that was because the council couldn't be arsed arguing and just stopped it?
> 
> Obviously maybe ignore is the wrong word but they seem to be a bunch of militant tree huggers hell bent on banning everything. From what i understand of your organisation you all do it without banging the drums and making too much noise - which is the right way to go about it. Unfortunately a lot of people who reply to these threads and want to fight them go about it by being the anti APA and want to make as much noise as they do...
> 
> ...


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## Cockys Royals (Jun 28, 2008)

ambyglam said:


> id do that for people wanting kids...lol


Agreed there.


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