# Fibreglass



## stern69 (Feb 12, 2009)

Morning all!

As some of u may have seen from my earlier posts, I'm wanting to completely waterproof the bottom of my cresties viv for a waterfall. It's proving a bit tricky though as it's a triangular shaped corner viv so can't just put a cat litter tray in or anything else easy like that. 

One thing that I have thought of though is fibreglass. If I basically made my own removable custom fit "tray" using this stuff would this be suitable? Size wise the footprint of the viv is not massive: 2 sides are about 55cm and across the front is about 70cm and the tray would only need to be 5 or 6cm deep.

How much would it cost to do this?
How difficult would it be?
Where can I get the stuff from?


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## Jim2109 (Mar 30, 2009)

fibreglass is possible, in theory its waterproof just on its own, but youll need to seal it so id go with an epoxy waterproofing paint to seal it just to be doubly sure.

an easier option would be perspex. if its just a corner with flat edges then it wont be hard to cut perspex to size and bond it all together to make a sealed tank.


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## stern69 (Feb 12, 2009)

Cheers Jim. I've seen something in halfords called Fastglas which comes as a complete kit including matting, resin and hardener for a touch over a tenner. Would this work? It's for doing car body repairs but surely fibreglass is fibreglass right?

Also, sorry 4 sounding stupid but why would I need to seal it? I thought that once it had set it was basically like plastic? Surely that would be sufficient?


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## matt1993 (Jul 7, 2009)

them car kits are great i used one to repair a crack in my bath, so there no reason it wouldnt be ok to use in your viv hope this helps


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## Jim2109 (Mar 30, 2009)

the Fastglass kits are sufficient, you dont get that much glass matting though iirc, i cant remember, i havent used one in a while, i buy all my supplies seperately but it only really works out worthwhile for larger quantities of stuff. youll need at least 3 layers id think so you may end up needing more than one kit. it depends how large an area youre covering.

once the resin sets it is a plastic, but theres no guarantees that it will be watertight. youre bound to have gaps somewhere. you can get around this by laying up 2 or 3 layers, then at the end doing a layer of just resin which will fill any holes and seal it nicely.

fibreglass is pretty ugly stuff though (the Fastglass resin cures pinky orange) so id probably paint it. in which case youd then need to seal it afterwards. although you can get away without doing so if you leave it as its natural colour and make sure its completely watertight.

unless your working with a complex shape though i still reckon perspex will be easier.


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## pete-vtr (Sep 16, 2009)

stern69 said:


> Morning all!
> 
> As some of u may have seen from my earlier posts, I'm wanting to completely waterproof the bottom of my cresties viv for a waterfall. It's proving a bit tricky though as it's a triangular shaped corner viv so can't just put a cat litter tray in or anything else easy like that.
> 
> ...


right so let me get this straight, you want a removable tray for the bottom that wont leak any water down the sides? if so i wouldnt say it was best suited.

but ill tell you how id do it anyway;

firstly starting with the viv completely empty, line the bottom and sides however deep you want it to be with a bin bag. make a mix up of resin and hardener and pour it into the bottom covering the whole surface area. 

then using matting, kitchen roll, card, cardboard soak it in FG and stick it to all 3 sides and let it go of.

after its cured remove it and build up as many layers as you like, it will be completely waterproof and WONT need sealing, job done.

if you want me to explain in more detail pm me.


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## stern69 (Feb 12, 2009)




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## PIERCEDPAUL (Dec 11, 2009)

raw fibreglass ,,which means just mat and resin isnt water tight ,, you need to seal this with either gel coat or at least a coat of good quality paint or sealer to make water tight ,, hope this helps


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## stern69 (Feb 12, 2009)

That's the kind of area i'm looking to cover. It'll only need to be 5 or 6cm deep. Basically, what i want to end up with is a solid, one piece plastic "tray" that i can remove easily for cleaning when i need to. I think i'm gonna go down the fibreglass route. I got a couple of questions though guys:


*How long does it generally take to harden?* Ie will it be ready to hold water?
*Will it stick to the viv whilst it's hardening?* Basically, this viv already has an occupant. I have a spare viv where he can stay whilst i'm doing it so that's not a problem. However, will the fibreglass stick to the inside of the viv whilst it's still "wet"?


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## stern69 (Feb 12, 2009)

pete-vtr said:


> right so let me get this straight, you want a removable tray for the bottom that wont leak any water down the sides? if so i wouldnt say it was best suited.
> 
> but ill tell you how id do it anyway;
> 
> ...


Cheers Pete, think you've just answered the questions i was typing when you posted that! Out of interest, why wouldn't it be best suited?


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## pete-vtr (Sep 16, 2009)

PIERCEDPAUL said:


> raw fibreglass ,,which means just mat and resin isnt water tight ,, you need to seal this with either gel coat or at least a _coat of good_ _quality paint_ or sealer to make water tight ,, hope this helps


'good' coat of paint to seal it!? whatever your on mate i want some! and mat and resin wont harden without an epoxy resin hardener.

i used to use this stuff everyday for allsorts of different things, and i can tell you now it is water proof.

canoes and small boats are made from fiberglass resin...



stern69 said:


> Cheers Pete, think you've just answered the questions i was typing when you posted that! Out of interest, why wouldn't it be best suited?


from your first post i assumed you wanted it tight fitting around the edges but still removable. you will get the shape without problems but without it being a pain to remove you wont get a decent enough seal round the edges and corner supports. only other thing i can sugest would be to fix rubber strips to the sides, similar to those on your windscreen wipers.


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

why not use glass ???
any "cut to size" glazier would do this for you...
simply seal the joints


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## pete-vtr (Sep 16, 2009)

alan1 said:


> why not use glass ???
> any "cut to size" glazier would do this for you...
> simply seal the joints


good idea, although i think its going to be done on the cheap.

dont know how much they want to spend, but i agree thats a better way.


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## I am a scarecrow (Nov 18, 2009)

pete-vtr said:


> 'good' coat of paint to seal it!? whatever your on mate i want some! and mat and resin wont harden without an epoxy resin hardener.
> 
> i used to use this stuff everyday for allsorts of different things, and i can tell you now it is water proof.
> 
> ...


fibreglass isn't waterproof without sealing. Like the other guy said, it needs coating with an highbuild epoxy paint, or better still, gelcoat (as personally I'd worry about isocyanites in the paint)

Water will eventually penetrate grp, and cause it to de-laminate and come apart.

I work at a boat building company, I hope it helps..


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## pete-vtr (Sep 16, 2009)

I am a scarecrow said:


> _fibreglass isn't_ _waterproof_ without sealing. Like the other guy said, it needs coating with an highbuild epoxy paint, or better still, gelcoat (as personally I'd worry about isocyanites in the paint)
> 
> Water will eventually penetrate grp, and cause it to de-laminate and come apart.
> 
> I work at a boat building company, I hope it helps..


sorry my friend but i strongly disagree with you on this one, iv got a completely unsealed/ painted FG bonnet on my project car its been on the last 2months and it hasent leaked,warped or anything like that. water just beads on it perfectly...

its 16mm deep and was cured for 72hours prior to being left outside...


EDIT; just to expand on that a little.

its got two layers of fiberglass cloth with unthinned laminating resin, then sanded, final coat is with a finishing resin.
I have never once had a delamination issue using polyester resin. ONLY when blistering occurs does it leak water...


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## I am a scarecrow (Nov 18, 2009)

pete-vtr said:


> sorry my friend but i strongly disagree with you on this one, iv got a completely unsealed/ painted FG bonnet on my project car its been on the last 2months and it hasent leaked,warped or anything like that. water just beads on it perfectly...
> 
> its 16mm deep and was cured for 72hours prior to being left outside...


That's fair enough, but I have worked on grp boats for around 8 years (spraying them) and grp needs sealing properly, otherwise osmosis occurs, especially if making something in way of a water container. For the sake of a few quid extra I'd strongly recommend gelcoating it after, if your gonna go to the effort of making it anyway...


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## PIERCEDPAUL (Dec 11, 2009)

to the post above i totally agree ,,ive worked with fibreglass for over 20 years ,,raw mat and resin will in the end delaminate because its porous unless its sealed ,,im sorry to keep repeating it but it will be a complete waste of time n money if this isnt sealed in someway ,, plus dangerous to the animal in the long run


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## I am a scarecrow (Nov 18, 2009)

PIERCEDPAUL said:


> to the post above i totally agree ,,ive worked with fibreglass for over 20 years ,,raw mat and resin will in the end delaminate because its porous unless its sealed ,,im sorry to keep repeating it but it will be a complete waste of time n money if this isnt sealed in someway ,, plus dangerous to the animal in the long run


:2thumb:


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## pete-vtr (Sep 16, 2009)

I am a scarecrow said:


> That's fair enough, but I have worked on grp boats for around 8 years (spraying them) and grp needs sealing properly, otherwise osmosis occurs, especially if making something in way of a water container. For the sake of a few quid extra I'd strongly recommend gelcoating it after, if your gonna go to the effort of making it anyway...


 
your going abit off track here, Osmosis may ONLY occur when there is a partially-permeable membrane, such as a cell membrane. When a cell is submerged in water on both sides, the water molecules pass through the cell membrane from an area of low solute concentration, However, the molecules hitting the membrane from the water are solute molecules, and these will *not* pass through the membrane.

as iv already said once hardened fiberglass is waterproof with a *finishing resin* or a gel coat.



pete-vtr said:


> its got two layers of fiberglass cloth with unthinned laminating resin, then sanded, *final coat is with a finishing resin.*
> I have never once had a delamination issue using polyester resin. ONLY when blistering occurs does it leak water...


 
if you still dont believe me check out the last paragraph here;

What is Fiberglass?


thank-you and goodnight!


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## stern69 (Feb 12, 2009)

Haha i love a good debate! :2thumb: Maybe then fibreglass isn't the right choice then...

The glass option is one that's been mentioned a few times now. I can get the glass cut to size for cheap enough but how would i stick it all together to make sure it is: 

A) Water tight and
B) Strong enough that it won't just fall apart.

People keep saying silicone but i've used silicone for things before and there's no way i'd trust it (from a strength point of view) to hold together all those bits of glass on their own, let alone when full of water! 
For sealing it's great, but using it as an adhesive? I'm not sure...


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## pete-vtr (Sep 16, 2009)

its upto you what you choose i suppose, 

but fibreglass is cheap, hassle free compared to getting glass cut then sticking it etc, and YES its waterproof!!!!! if it wasnt would they make boats, canoes etc from it? i dont think so.

all you need to know is there...


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## stern69 (Feb 12, 2009)

The thing is with the whole glass idea is that I'm just not 100% confident with lots of pieces of something stuck together. I'd be much happier with one solid, water tight vessel. That's why i initially thought of fibreglass. I'll be honest though, i'm not 100% confident in that either now! :lol2:
Would acrylic be an option? Do you know of anywhere that mould acrlyic?


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## pete-vtr (Sep 16, 2009)

i can understand why as one of the guys said he was a boatbuilder.

now bearing in mind this is the 21st century and building a boat from fibreglass and just finishing as it is isnt heard of these days, there all fancy bright white paint jobs with names on the sides etc,

but the bottom line is that fibreglass constructed in way i mentioned in one of my first posts is waterproof, theres no doubt about it. a piece of my unfinshed work is outside in the pissing rain now............. i wouldnt be leaving it there if it would get sodden trust me, theres over a 80hrs work in it... 

click the link i provided earlier and have a good read about it.


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## stern69 (Feb 12, 2009)

I know what you're saying mate but it's the difference between being rain proof and being able to hold water for the next X number of years. That's why i can't take any risks. (plus all the electrics are underneath the viv so don't want any leaking!!)

What if i DIDN'T want it to be removable? Could i not just paint the bottom 5 or 6 cm of my wooden (well, contiboard) viv with the epoxy resin/hardener?


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## pete-vtr (Sep 16, 2009)

just a thought; have you thought of making one from styrofoam and grout etc?

would look a hell of a lot more natural then any fibreglass build would, there dead easy to do and you can also make them waterproof using G4 or somthing similar for piece of mind...

or get in contact with this kid im sure he'll be able to make you one for next to nothing

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/equipment-classifieds/422515-vivarium-hides-bowles-caves-basking.html


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## stern69 (Feb 12, 2009)

I'd thought of that but i was going down the "raised floor" route becuase the pump i have actually sits in the water and therefore i wanted it to be hidden.

Basically the fibreglass tray would sit on the bottom of the viv almost like an underground reservoir. On top of this would have been a layer of mesh/grid kinda stuff. That would have been topped with a layer of pebbles. All you would then see would have been the pebble "floor". You wouldn't actually see any fibreglass. The pump then sits in the underground reservoir and pumps the water up through a tube. This runs down the waterfall, soaks through the pebbles and back into the underground reservoir.

Does that make sense!? It's quite a common way of doing it (Check out Chondro's frog viv amongst others on here)


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## stern69 (Feb 12, 2009)

I think i've sussed it! 

Problem is, cos of the shape of my viv, square containers just don't work! I never thought of using round ones though!

If i get a 30cm dia shallow bowl it'll do the trick perfectly! The water fall is going at the back of the viv (the right angled part of the triangle) so a round bowl will be able to sit back far enough in the viv for it to work properly.

Why didn't i think of that before!?!


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

stern69 said:


> Haha i love a good debate! :2thumb: Maybe then fibreglass isn't the right choice then...
> 
> The glass option is one that's been mentioned a few times now. I can get the glass cut to size for cheap enough but how would i stick it all together to make sure it is:
> 
> ...


use PROPER "aquarium sealant"...

if it holds 6'x2'x2' fish tanks together, it'll easily do your bits of glass


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

alan1 said:


> use PROPER "aquarium sealant"...
> 
> if it holds 6'x2'x2' fish tanks together, it'll easily do your bits of glass


Yup. That's what it's designed for.


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## stern69 (Feb 12, 2009)

I had an old fish tank (only small) that I tried to dismantle to get at the glass. The sealant came of easily enough but the glass was still held together by something (glue?) Sealant is great at sealing joints and making them water proof but I'm still not convinced it would actually hold the glass together.


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## Jim2109 (Mar 30, 2009)

Pete - your fibreglass car bonnet is probably gelcoated, id be surprised if it isnt. its also not a water bearing vessel. you could make a fibreglass bowl and it wouldnt leak, per se. its not waterproof though, hence sealing. it really is necessary in the long term. personally id use an epoxy paint, im using Antel A1 to seal my viv, which is no longer fibreglass but it was when i originally started before i changed the plans.

using perspex is easier than fibreglass in this instance. you can get the perspex cut to size online and delivered as you need it. then just use epoxy adhesive to attach all the pieces together, and run a bead of aquarium sealant along the inside of all the joins. i reckon it will be cheaper as well, and substantially less time consuming. theres a guy on these forums that makes perspex stuff to order, i cant remember his username though.

obviously if you can just use a round bowl then thats even easier lol.

FWIW, im going to be getting perspex trays made to size to sit in the bottom of my new vivs with 2 compartments - one for water and the other for substrate. probably a fairly similar thing to what youre trying to acheive.


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## stern69 (Feb 12, 2009)

Went to B&Q today and got a 30cm diameter, 6cm deep plasitc dish that's supposed to be used for plant pots to sit in. Got it in the cresties viv with the fogger and it works great! The fogger makes LOADS of mist and the dish catches 99% of the splashes that the fogger makes so all good!

Unfortunately it's a tiny bit too big (diameter wise) and could have done with being a little bit smaller. 

However.....I've just sussed out a way though to stop the fogger splashing altogether so i think i'm going to go to the shop tomorrow and grab a 26cm diameter plastic tub of Celebrations which i can just cut down to size.

I'm just not sure how to dispose of the contents....:whistling2:

Any suggestions....


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## stern69 (Feb 12, 2009)

Jim2109 said:


> FWIW, im going to be getting perspex trays made to size to sit in the bottom of my new vivs with 2 compartments - one for water and the other for substrate. probably a fairly similar thing to what youre trying to acheive.


If it's any help, this is how it's going to be working once it's all up and running. It's only a rough drawing and not to scale but will give you an idea of the setup.


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## blackjohnzx6 (Jun 18, 2009)

i would personally go the glass and silicone route iv made loads of fishtanks and aquarian silicone is all you need to hold it together probally the cheapest route to most glass places have loads of offcuts


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