# another cross question (carpets) (J het Ax X CJ het Ax)



## CloudForest

Jaguar het. Axanthic X (Caramel) Jaguar het. Axanthic

both have same IJ Axanthic father, and both have Caramel Jag mothers

Only one has some caramel coloring, but not as intense or clean as the mothers

I know jag X jag can be an issue, both with Leucism and neuro problems...what could be expected from the crossing?

Hoping for a Axanthic IJ, and a Caramel with deeper coloring/marking

thanks for your time :notworthy:


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## CloudForest

any thoughts?


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## paulh

CloudForest said:


> Jaguar het. Axanthic X (Caramel) Jaguar het. Axanthic
> 
> both have same IJ Axanthic father, and both have Caramel Jag mothers
> 
> Only one has some caramel coloring, but not as intense or clean as the mothers
> 
> I know jag X jag can be an issue, both with Leucism and neuro problems...what could be expected from the crossing?
> 
> Hoping for a Axanthic IJ, and a Caramel with deeper coloring/marking
> 
> thanks for your time :notworthy:


Jag x jag produces 
1/4 Homozygous jag (dies soon after birth, I am told)
2/4 jag
1/4 normal

het. Axanthic x het. Axanthic produes
3/4 normal (66 % probability het axanthic)
1/4 axanthic

(Fractions are expected values. Actual results may vary.)

I am not up on caramel. I lean towards the opinion that some caramel babies are possible, but that could be wrong.

Homozygous jags are part of the cost of this sort of mating.

Possible combinations:
normal
jag
axanthic
jag axanthic
caramel
caramel jag
caramel axanthic
caramel jag axanthic

The babies will be Irian Jaya if their grandmothers are Irian Jaya.

Good luck.


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## paulh

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/genetics/1016983-carpet-python-albino-x-caremel.html

Caramel is supposed to be a codominant mutant gene. Caramel x normal would be expected to produce 1/w caramel and 1/2 normal. How good a caramel cannot be predicted, as far as I know. Anyway, there is no change in the list of possible combinations.


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## CloudForest

awsome info thanks!

Cant wait to find out what comes out now 


Irian Jaya, is that only passed from the mother/grandmother? So no chance of a Axanthic IJ, with Axanthic IJ grandfathers (Axanthic, not het) and Caramel Jag grandmothers?


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## paulh

CloudForest said:


> Irian Jaya, is that only passed from the mother/grandmother? So no chance of a Axanthic IJ, with Axanthic IJ grandfathers (Axanthic, not het) and Caramel Jag grandmothers?


Irian Jaya is a locality. Original male was claimed to be an Irian Jaya snake, but the localities that the females come from were not given. Both father and mother must be from Irian Jaya stock to have Irian Jaya babies. If the females' localities are unknown, then the babies are not locality specific.

My impression is that the jaguar mutant gene originated in mainland Australia. If so, then both females would be wholly or partly from Australian stock. It would not be ethical to sell any of their babies as pure Irian Jaya.


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## CloudForest

paulh said:


> Irian Jaya is a locality. Original male was claimed to be an Irian Jaya snake, but the localities that the females come from were not given. Both father and mother must be from Irian Jaya stock to have Irian Jaya babies. If the females' localities are unknown, then the babies are not locality specific.
> 
> My impression is that the jaguar mutant gene originated in mainland Australia. If so, then both females would be wholly or partly from Australian stock. It would not be ethical to sell any of their babies as pure Irian Jaya.


I am only referring to the aesthetics of IJ - not interested in selling either way, just curious as to what influences will show up in the way they look. your last comment confused me thats why...



> The babies will be Irian Jaya if their grandmothers are Irian Jaya


but yes of course they would not be Irian Jaya, considering they have a very well mixed genetic line


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## paulh

Aesthetics of IJ only. Sorry, I did not fully understand.

IMO, some babies might resemble IJ to a certain extent. But as far as I know, no one can predict the probable percentage or how closely. 

I made the comment about selling because maintaining 20 or so carpet pythons for 10-20 years is an economic strain for most of us. The usual alternative is to unload some of the babies on others, either by sale or gift.

Good luck with your endeavors.


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## chopnose

*axanthic questions*

Hey buddy Im not sure exactly what your question was directly think theres a few in there.
but in the mix, you would/should get lucys form jag to jag, however at the same time if thats all you have got and your firing for the big one "caramel axanthic jag" visual,,,, essentially would get all jags making may be hitting the visual caramel axanthic jag easier to hit, but if lucks not on your side and you get the super form of the jag sitting on your only visual caramel axanthic ghost,, you'll be pissed , if it lived you'd be the happiest man alive. lol

Remember half should be caramel, all should be jag and 25% axanthic visuals the rest poss hets. now moving on...

hets ,,,

axanthic hets like the albino recessive gene, has sometimes at first glance red babies that have what people would say is a marker but there not markers its actually the darwin influence, theres no way of telling if its a poss het ( unless you have seen the pairing or reliable source),, that said,,,, looking at axanthics hets they are more silvery so its like something did get passed down,, however no dominant trait look does get past down, breeding has been done many times on these animals that look like a guaranteed het cause it looks silver or axabthic like with no joy,.....so when you put a silvery looking het to the caramel it sometimes almost numbs the caramel . My 100% caramel het axanthic was red when it was born now looks more normal with slightly whiter look than your average coloured carpet, if that makes sense, however it has reduced black pigment from the hypo caramel function.
good luck. I hope to have a couple caramel axanthics hatching out in a month or two. fingers crossed.
My Facebook site,
Morelia Morphology


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## chopnose

*hets*

were these sold to you as Irian jaya jag het axanthics ?
and caramel irian jaya jag het axanthic?


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## CloudForest

chopnose said:


> were these sold to you as Irian jaya jag het axanthics ?
> and caramel irian jaya jag het axanthic?


no, it was a query which related to a pair I was getting, but not the specific ones, I got a jag het axanthic and a sib het axanthic, from a CJJ X Axanthic IJ pairing  all properly labeled and lineage given


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## paulh

chopnose said:


> Remember half should be caramel, all should be jag and 25% axanthic visuals the rest poss hets. now moving on...


I agree with the quote except for the "all should be jag" part.

A jaguar carpet python has a jaguar mutant gene paired with a normal gene. The offspring get one gene from the mother and one from the father. If a baby gets a normal gene from the father and a normal gene from the mother, then that baby is a normal and not a jag. In other words, not all the babies from a jag x jag mating are jags.

Expected result is 
1/4 of the babies have two jag mutant genes and are leucistics.
2/4 of the babies have a jag mutant gene paired with a normal gene and are jaguars.
1/4 of the babies have two normal genes and are not jags.
Actual results may vary.


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## chopnose

*Jags*

Your absaloutly right there actually got my wires crossed on jag actually same with the caramel as well. Bottom line you'll get more jags and more caramels if you have them on both sides in, I got bit confused as a friend of mine did a super caramel jag to jag and got all caramels all jags and one chimera, no Lucy's , he had one of the old school bad mans jags which I don't think was a jag.(debatable).however his thinking was in essence by putting one jag in 50% of the clutch should be jags if hitting odds and by putting anther jag in anther 50% covering all babies it worked lol but no supers! Lucy's that's were my slip of thinking come from got to get that out of my head lol. Having said that I would if trying to hit a big combo try this ...gamble but it feels less of gamble than trying to hit to with less.


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