# Black Mamba - Dendroaspis polylepis



## salvatoruk

This is my adult Male Black Mamba, he's something over 7ft and an absolute delight to own. 














































Laurie


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## herp mad

Lovly snake m8, how easy are they 2 keep?
Wa size viv do they need?


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## Owzy

It likes mice? cool


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## knighty

he looks mean as F*CK! quality snake


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## salvatoruk

herp mad said:


> Lovly snake m8, how easy are they 2 keep?
> Wa size viv do they need?


Their requirements aren't very difficult to meet but obviously because of their speed, agility and venom strength I would never recommend anyone keeps them unless they are very competent handling and caring for similar species and have a good amount of DWAL listed venomous snake experience.

Viv size depends on that size of the specimen and the number of them but 5ft-7ft plus a good depth and a few foot high is fine.


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## salvatoruk

Owzy said:


> It likes mice? cool


 That's a large Rat in the picture!


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## abandonallhope

Whats his temprement like?

He looks quite docile in the pic where you are handling. A friend has a WC black, and is nasty as feck.


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## salvatoruk

abandonallhope said:


> Whats his temprement like?
> 
> He looks quite docile in the pic where you are handling. A friend has a WC black, and is nasty as feck.


Mine is LTC. He's alright. You have to be careful but he's pretty well behaved but to be honest there's no need to get close to them often. The pic with me holding him was as I was putting him away after getting him and now if I need to do any work in his vivarium he goes in his trap box and I can safely change water, clean out etc without even needing to touch him. 

Who's your mate with the Mamba?


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## tengalms

Hi Laurie,that looks very nice indeed.

Roy.


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## abandonallhope

salvatoruk said:


> Mine is LTC. He's alright. You have to be careful but he's pretty well behaved but to be honest there's no need to get close to them often. The pic with me holding him was as I was putting him away after getting him and now if I need to do any work in his vivarium he goes in his trap box and I can safely change water, clean out etc without even needing to touch him.
> 
> Who's your mate with the Mamba?


PM me if you want, he's not on the forum and probably wouldn't want me posting his name around.

Unfortunatly his one has a few old scars, still a stunning animal though.

Your a brave man, wouldn't like to take a hit from a dendroaspis.


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## snakeboy101

I like how mambas look like a gummy old man with their mouths open.


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## andy2086

Stunning snake! Great pics too : victory:


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## reptismail

i lovethe first pic really good pic that.


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## 70ridgeway

hes stunning great second photo


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## snakekeeper

Brave is all I can say. That BM is huge and judging by the photo is fairly close to your feet/lower leg region... I would have thought that if that snake was even slightly feisty it could have tagged you from that position. Gorgeous specimen of a snake.


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## Owzy

snakekeeper said:


> Brave is all I can say. That BM is huge and judging by the photo is fairly close to your feet/lower leg region... I would have thought that if that snake was even slightly feisty it could have tagged you from that position. Gorgeous specimen of a snake.


Pictures can be deceiving. Remember that one of Steve Irwin with his baby & the croc?


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## snakekeeper

Owzy said:


> Pictures can be deceiving. Remember that one of Steve Irwin with his baby & the croc?


Yes photos can be very deceiving.


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## HABU

one of the few animals that truly frighten me...

... very nice!:2thumb:


... very scarey!!: victory:


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## salvatoruk

Cheers everyone.

Regarding how close it was to me, the head was about 4ft from my legs but it does look a lot closer in the pic yeah. It was only a quick pciture to show his size as I was putting him away.

Laurie


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## salvatoruk

HABU said:


> one of the few animals that truly frighten me...
> 
> ... very nice!:2thumb:
> 
> 
> ... very scarey!!: victory:


It's Taipans that scare me! They move like no other snake.


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## russm

That is the nuts. How long have you got after being tagged before you start break dancing?


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## salvatoruk

russm said:


> That is the nuts. How long have you got after being tagged before you start break dancing?


 I don't know what everyone else's protocol is but personally if I got bitten the first thing I'd do is put on an old skool beat and throw down a head spin or two...

Wait... is Break Dancing a Metaphor for dying?


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## milsom

Is a beaut Laurie!


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## salvatoruk

milsom said:


> Is a beaut Laurie!


 Cheers Ty. Why don't you keep Mambas? Not your kind of snake or simply "been there, done that" ?


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## milsom

salvatoruk said:


> Cheers Ty. Why don't you keep Mambas? Not your kind of snake or simply "been there, done that" ?


Hi Laurie,

I kept viridis for years, had a group of about 6 and i have had blacks and e.greens, but always seem to have more cobra species, and of course my passion always was ozz/pap elapids.

Cheers

Ty


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## gazza9inarow

Cracking looking snake , i have had the pleasure of seeing these in the wild many a time , as i was grought up in Zim , these animals strike the fear of god into locals and farmers in zim . But beautifull all the same .


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## russm

salvatoruk said:


> I don't know what everyone else's protocol is but personally if I got bitten the first thing I'd do is put on an old skool beat and throw down a head spin or two...
> 
> Wait... is Break Dancing a Metaphor for dying?


Yeah it is a metaphor for dying. I think spinning on my head would be the last thing on my mind as well.


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## purple-vixen

I have just done some quick research on this snake, whereabouts, temperament, venom and habitat, and it's amazing! I love the structure of the head, the eyes are so bold, and the quick movements make it so graceful, yet it is very powerful and if the venom gets into your bloodstream, you can die anytime from 15 minutes!

Now I guess you knew that, what I want to know is do you, alongside your license and the correct equipment/setup, have to have an anti-venom in the house too?

I am genuinely interested, not because I want one, or am going to get a DWA license anytime soon (probably never) but because it fascinates me that you can happily keep such a dangerous snake, absolutely beautiful by the way, and very very good photographs. 

I hope my questions don't seem silly.

Thanks 

Jac x


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## stuartdouglas

purple-vixen said:


> I have just done some quick research on this snake, whereabouts, temperament, venom and habitat, and it's amazing! I love the structure of the head, the eyes are so bold, and the quick movements make it so graceful, yet it is very powerful and if the venom gets into your bloodstream, you can die anytime from 15 minutes!
> 
> *Now I guess you knew that, what I want to know is do you, alongside your license and the correct equipment/setup, have to have an anti-venom in the house too?*
> 
> I am genuinely interested, not because I want one, or am going to get a DWA license anytime soon (probably never) but because it fascinates me that you can happily keep such a dangerous snake, absolutely beautiful by the way, and very very good photographs.
> 
> I hope my questions don't seem silly.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Jac x


No, you don't have to keep antivenin in your house. It's ridiculously hard to get hold of, even more ridiculously expensive, has a limited shelf life, has to be administered intravenously via drip and I doubt there's a doctor in existence that would administer a drug that a patient bought in themselves.


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## salvatoruk

purple-vixen said:


> what I want to know is do you, alongside your license and the correct equipment/setup, have to have an anti-venom in the house too?


Jac,

Firstly thank you, it's certainly fun trying to get good pictures of these.

The simple answer to your question is no.
The whole subject of AV is a complex one but to summarize simply AV is not in anyway how it is made out to be on tv, snakes on a plane etc. It has to be given only at the right time, in the correct method and dosage by trained medical staff. There is something like a 60-70% chance of an adverse reaction to AV that can be life threatening. It is not some sort of magic potion that you inject straight after a bite that instantly saves your life. Please don't think I'm insinuating this is what you think though, I'm just saying it is commonly the general publics belief on AV.


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## Marcia

Absolutely beautiful :flrt:

Scarey but beautiful :flrt:


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## purple-vixen

stuartdouglas said:


> No, you don't have to keep antivenin in your house. It's ridiculously hard to get hold of, even more ridiculously expensive, has a limited shelf life, has to be administered intravenously via drip and I doubt there's a doctor in existence that would administer a drug that a patient bought in themselves.


Fair enough, I can understand that the Doctor necessarily would be to blame if he did administor a so called venom, and the victim died, I see the point now. I just "assumed" that would have to be one of the factors of keeping a dangerous species... :blush:



salvatoruk said:


> Jac,
> 
> Firstly thank you, it's certainly fun trying to get good pictures of these.
> 
> The simple answer to your question is no.
> The whole subject of AV is a complex one but to summarize simply AV is not in anyway how it is made out to be on tv, snakes on a plane etc. It has to be given only at the right time, in the correct method and dosage by trained medical staff. There is something like a 60-70% chance of an adverse reaction to AV that can be life threatening. It is not some sort of magic potion that you inject straight after a bite that instantly saves your life. Please don't think I'm insinuating this is what you think though, I'm just saying it is commonly the general publics belief on AV.


Oh no offence taken, I just asked because I genuinely believed that for an animal that is dangerous to be kept under the DWA standards, that an antivenom must be available. 

Now I understand this is not the case, I also understand the reason to why the laws are so strict and the guidelines are strictly followed. 

Thanks for the answers, and seriously, they are great photos. Considering you can't really safely handle one without taking a huge amount of risk.


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## toxinologist

salvatoruk said:


> Jac,
> 
> The simple answer to your question is no.
> The whole subject of AV is a complex one but to summarize simply AV is not in anyway how it is made out to be on tv, snakes on a plane etc. It has to be given only at the right time, in the correct method and dosage by trained medical staff. There is something like a 60-70% chance of an adverse reaction to AV that can be life threatening. It is not some sort of magic potion that you inject straight after a bite that instantly saves your life.


On the other hand, a good, solid venom-injecting bite from a large _Dendroaspis polylepis_ will be 100% fatal in the absence of antivenom and good supportive intensive care management.

Since _Dendroaspis polylepis_ is not native to the UK, it is presumptuous to presume that UK authorities, zoos or research institutions should bear the cost of providing antivenoms to the private keepers of such animals.

While some may argue they have a "right" (it's actually not, it's a privilege conferred by a DWA license) to keep highly venomous snakes in their private collections, the corresponding reality is that the general public is not required to foot the bill, and a responsible, mature keeper should see it as his responsibility and obligation to locate, purchase, import and maintain appropriate antivenoms for use in the event that he/she is bitten. Such an individual should also recognise that it is their responsibility and obligation to maintain a professional relationship with an appropriate medical professional qualified and suitably experienced to direct the medical treatment of the keeper in the event of an accident, including directing the use of antivenom kept by the keeper for such purpose.

There are several well qualified medical professionals in the UK who would be suitable for such roles, and who would in fact welcome communication from a keeper with such a responsible, forward thinking mindset.

Potential adverse reactions are a reality with almost any drug administered, and doctors are specifically trained in the management of adverse drug events. The possibility of an adverse reaction to antivenom (most are not life-threatening in fact!) is not an excuse for failing to protect yourself from the potential consequences of a snake bite accident.

Cheers


David Williams


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## Snakes Incorporated

Purple-vixen the venom is mainly neurotoxin thus quicker than others but 15 minutes is very doubtful depending on were the venom enters the body and how much. 
If bit the hospital must treat the symptoms so anti-venom is not crucial. The victim needs to be put on a heart hung machine so the enzymes can break down naturally. This will mean ICU for as long as it takes. (week or two) 



toxinologist said:


> … a good, solid venom-injecting bite from a large _Dendroaspis polylepis_ will be 100% fatal in the absence of antivenom


I disagree as I refused anti-venom myself and made a full recovery from a Cape Cobra bite that is drop for drop similar but more toxic. 

Any administration of anti-venom must only be done by a medical professional. The real problem with the treatment is anaflactic shock due to a reaction to horse blood.

Anyway nice looking snake but its complacency that will be your biggest danger.


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## Owzy

toxinologist said:


> On the other hand, a good, solid venom-injecting bite from a large _Dendroaspis polylepis_ will be 100% fatal in the absence of antivenom and good supportive intensive care management.
> 
> Since _Dendroaspis polylepis_ is not native to the UK, it is presumptuous to presume that UK authorities, zoos or research institutions should bear the cost of providing antivenoms to the private keepers of such animals.
> 
> While some may argue they have a "right" (it's actually not, it's a privilege conferred by a DWA license) to keep highly venomous snakes in their private collections, the corresponding reality is that the general public is not required to foot the bill, and a responsible, mature keeper should see it as his responsibility and obligation to locate, purchase, import and maintain appropriate antivenoms for use in the event that he/she is bitten. Such an individual should also recognise that it is their responsibility and obligation to maintain a professional relationship with an appropriate medical professional qualified and suitably experienced to direct the medical treatment of the keeper in the event of an accident, including directing the use of antivenom kept by the keeper for such purpose.
> 
> There are several well qualified medical professionals in the UK who would be suitable for such roles, and who would in fact welcome communication from a keeper with such a responsible, forward thinking mindset.
> 
> Potential adverse reactions are a reality with almost any drug administered, and doctors are specifically trained in the management of adverse drug events. The possibility of an adverse reaction to antivenom (most are not life-threatening in fact!) is not an excuse for failing to protect yourself from the potential consequences of a snake bite accident.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> David Williams


I would have thought that it would be more practical for the appropriate hospitals to keep the antivenom necessary for all bite scenarios rather than each individual keeper maintaining a private stock (if that is what you are suggesting, perhaps I misunderstood.) I know little about expiary dates but as far as I can see there would be an awful lot of wasted a/v in the latter option.

Sorry if I am misunderstanding but are you saying the UK public _should_ not have to foot the bill or _do_ not have to foot the bill? I was under the impression that if you required hospital treatment from a bite in this country you would not be charged.. although it is something I have never really given much thought do

If this is the case then we should also charge for all admissions related to alcohol, cars, any sporting event etc


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## toxinologist

Snakes Incorporated said:


> I disagree as I refused anti-venom myself and made a full recovery from a Cape Cobra bite that is drop for drop similar but more toxic.


Where, anywhere, in my post do you see me referring to _Naja nivea_ ? With all due respect if you think a _Naja nivea_ bite is comparable to a bite from _Dendroaspis polylepis_, you probably should not be keeping venomous snakes. These two species have venoms that are extremely divergent from one another. The short-chain postsynaptic neurotoxins of _Naja nivea_ are very different indeed to the fasciculins and dendrotoxins of _Dendroaspis polylepis_.

The fact that you were foolish enough to refuse antivenom shows a fundamental lack of accurate knowledge about both the consequences of envenoming, and of antivenom use.



Snakes Incorporated said:


> Any administration of anti-venom must only be done by a medical professional. The real problem with the treatment is anaflactic shock due to a reaction to horse blood..


Where in my post do you see me recommending self-administration of antivenom? Don't you people take the time to read? I specifically stated that keepers of venomous snakes have a _"responsibility and obligation to maintain a professional relationship with an appropriate medical professional qualified and suitably experienced to direct the medical treatment of the keeper in the event of an accident, including directing the use of antivenom kept by the keeper for such purpose."_ ... where in that statement do I recommend anything other that administration of antivenom by a medical professional?

As for anaphylaxis (that is the correct spelling!), while there may be some risk of anaphylactoid reactions with the administration of any drug, the frequency of severe reactions varies considerably from one antivenom product to another. Rates may be high after the use of some very poor quality Indian-made antivenoms, but are very low for some other products. Irrespective of individual rates, medical professionals in appropriate clinical settings are well trained and equipped to manage such events, and the consequences of an adverse reaction are by far the lesser (and more manageable) of two evils when it comes to severe envenoming from snakes like _Dendroaspis polylepis_.

Cheers


David


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## toxinologist

Owzy said:


> I would have thought that it would be more practical for the appropriate hospitals to keep the antivenom necessary for all bite scenarios rather than each individual keeper maintaining a private stock (if that is what you are suggesting, perhaps I misunderstood.) I know little about expiary dates but as far as I can see there would be an awful lot of wasted a/v in the latter option.


Why should the UK Health System be required to stock large quantities of *expensive imported antivenoms* for use in treating bites by *imported* venomous snakes?

Should it provide antivenoms for naturally occurring _Vipera berus_ - yes absolutely, because these are a *native species*, and a small but nevertheless, genuine public health hazard.

But *imported* venomous snakes, and certainly those *imported* to satisfy the testosterone-filled demands of the pet trade, are not a genuine public health hazard, and the *full responsibility for procuring, importing, storing and providing antivenom for imported species* should rest wholly and solely on the shoulders of the private individuals who are keeping the snakes in the first place.



Owzy said:


> Sorry if I am misunderstanding but are you saying the UK public _should_ not have to foot the bill or _do_ not have to foot the bill? I was under the impression that if you required hospital treatment from a bite in this country you would not be charged.. although it is something I have never really given much thought do.


I'm saying that the UK public should not foot the bill at all. Full stop.

Nobody is holding a gun to the heads of the private venomous snake-keeping fraternity and forcing them to keep *highly venomous* and often *extremely dangerous* species of *imported* snakes. Why then should the keepers hold the British public responsible for the financial consequences of keeping these snakes?

British zoos and parks are all required under the terms of their licenses to procure, import, store and keep appropriate antivenoms for all of the venomous species they keep ... why should private keepers be exempt from the same requirements?

There is after all, a saying ... _if you can't do the time, don't do the crime_ ... in effect, if you are not prepared for the consequences of your actions, maybe you should change your actions. It applies well to the keeping of venomous snakes in private collections. The full responsibility for the provision of antivenom should rest with the keeper of the imported species.



Owzy said:


> If this is the case then we should also charge for all admissions related to alcohol, cars, any sporting event etc


There are a lot of people who would agree with going that far, however these are all problems that exist commonly in British society, and which the British people through their consecutive governments have elected to incorporate into the public health system, as do most countries around the world. Having a black mamba in a glass box in your council flat in Essex is rather a different proposition...

It's all about taking responsibility for your own actions and their consequences, instead of expecting others to do it for you. 

Cheers


David


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## Snakes Incorporated

toxinologist said:


> The fact that you were foolish enough to refuse antivenom shows a fundamental lack of accurate knowledge about both the consequences of envenoming….


David I can a sure you I am very experienced in endemic and indigenous snakes and quiet aware of venoms and there consequences. Don’t make silly statements like this before knowing who you are talking to mate. 
The comparison of venom is different in microscopic make up but similar in effects and symptoms as both are neurotoxin. 



toxinologist said:


> On the other hand, a good, solid venom-injecting bite from a large _Dendroaspis polylepis_ will be 100% fatal in the absence of antivenom …


You are an alarmist using information that was accurate in and around the 1960`s. One can be treated symptomatically and make a full recovery. This statement of yours is so inaccurate it’s amusing. 
Anaphylaxis reactions to anti-venom treatment in South Africa amounts to 70%.


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## SiUK

toxinologist said:


> On the other hand, a good, solid venom-injecting bite from a large _Dendroaspis polylepis_ will be 100% fatal in the absence of antivenom and good supportive intensive care management.
> 
> Since _Dendroaspis polylepis_ is not native to the UK, it is presumptuous to presume that UK authorities, zoos or research institutions should bear the cost of providing antivenoms to the private keepers of such animals.
> 
> While some may argue they have a "right" (it's actually not, it's a privilege conferred by a DWA license) to keep highly venomous snakes in their private collections, the corresponding reality is that the general public is not required to foot the bill, and a responsible, mature keeper should see it as his responsibility and obligation to locate, purchase, import and maintain appropriate antivenoms for use in the event that he/she is bitten. Such an individual should also recognise that it is their responsibility and obligation to maintain a professional relationship with an appropriate medical professional qualified and suitably experienced to direct the medical treatment of the keeper in the event of an accident, including directing the use of antivenom kept by the keeper for such purpose.
> 
> There are several well qualified medical professionals in the UK who would be suitable for such roles, and who would in fact welcome communication from a keeper with such a responsible, forward thinking mindset.
> 
> Potential adverse reactions are a reality with almost any drug administered, and doctors are specifically trained in the management of adverse drug events. The possibility of an adverse reaction to antivenom (most are not life-threatening in fact!) is not an excuse for failing to protect yourself from the potential consequences of a snake bite accident.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> David Williams


Firstly, its good to see you posting here, I do see your point however I dont completely agree, what I do agree with is the fact that its a privalige for us to be able to keep our snakes here in the UK, and I know it does cost the government money to keep up the supply of AV, however I help to foot the bill for all sorts of reckless past times by paying my taxes which I am not involved with from smoking to riding motorcycle, both of which cost alot more money than treating envenomations, so in a way I think its all swings and round abouts.

Snakes incorporated, most people here are aware of Davids credentials im not saying you havnt got good credentials also, but your never very forthcoming with them?


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## Snakes Incorporated

SiUK said:


> Snakes incorporated, most people here are aware of Davids credentials im not saying you havnt got good credentials also, but your never very forthcoming with them?


Because I refuse antivenom all of a sudden I am an inexperienced novice that should not be keeping venomous. I have been keeping venomous and doing snake catch and rescue for about thirty years. I am very involved in snake awareness training etc. etc. 
With respects I don’t have to explain myself to anyone.


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## SiUK

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Because I refuse antivenom all of a sudden I am an inexperienced novice that should not be keeping venomous. I have been keeping venomous and doing snake catch and rescue for about thirty years. I am very involved in snake awareness training etc. etc.
> With respects I don’t have to explain myself to anyone.


im not saying that, but there was a thread the other day as well about komodos, where a discussion came up, which ended in the same way, your right you dont have to explain yourself to anyone should you not want to, just commenting on the fact that you say "you dont know who I am" but you never tell anyone anyway, its your own perogative but it might help to back yourself up if people knew who you were?


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## Snakes Incorporated

SiUK said:


> i...a thread the other day as well about komodos...


 Ive contacted Bryan personally and was given the relevant information. I am still analizing this as I feel that some information is ambiguous and have put it on the back burner. 


SiUK said:


> ..."you dont know who I am" but you never tell anyone anyway,...


 The idea that only if someone is a self proclaimed 'expert' will his or her opinion be of any value is rot. If you or I make a statement that is untrue or silly and can be proven so who cares who exposed it. 
If a (MP) doctor tells us that cancer is caused because of defected cells created in the heart it does not take a medical practitioner to question this.
I have years of on hand practical experience and have reasonable theoretical knowledge to know what I’m talking about. To get armchair ‘experts’ correct my spelling and repeat information they have hear or read on the internet as gospel shows me who are the ‘want-to-be’s’


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## Owzy

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Because I refuse antivenom all of a sudden I am an inexperienced novice that should not be keeping venomous. I have been keeping venomous and doing snake catch and rescue for about thirty years. I am very involved in snake awareness training etc. etc.
> With respects I don’t have to explain myself to anyone.


I think all SiUK is saying is you come across as quite hostile in your posts, if you don't want to be questioned on your opinions don't post on a public forum! : victory:



toxinologist said:


> Why should the UK Health System be required to stock large quantities of *expensive imported antivenoms* for use in treating bites by *imported* venomous snakes?
> 
> Should it provide antivenoms for naturally occurring _Vipera berus_ - yes absolutely, because these are a *native species*, and a small but nevertheless, genuine public health hazard.
> 
> But *imported* venomous snakes, and certainly those *imported* to satisfy the testosterone-filled demands of the pet trade, are not a genuine public health hazard, and the *full responsibility for procuring, importing, storing and providing antivenom for imported species* should rest wholly and solely on the shoulders of the private individuals who are keeping the snakes in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm saying that the UK public should not foot the bill at all. Full stop.
> 
> Nobody is holding a gun to the heads of the private venomous snake-keeping fraternity and forcing them to keep *highly venomous* and often *extremely dangerous* species of *imported* snakes. Why then should the keepers hold the British public responsible for the financial consequences of keeping these snakes?
> 
> British zoos and parks are all required under the terms of their licenses to procure, import, store and keep appropriate antivenoms for all of the venomous species they keep ... why should private keepers be exempt from the same requirements?
> 
> There is after all, a saying ... _if you can't do the time, don't do the crime_ ... in effect, if you are not prepared for the consequences of your actions, maybe you should change your actions. It applies well to the keeping of venomous snakes in private collections. The full responsibility for the provision of antivenom should rest with the keeper of the imported species.
> 
> 
> 
> There are a lot of people who would agree with going that far, however these are all problems that exist commonly in British society, and which the British people through their consecutive governments have elected to incorporate into the public health system, as do most countries around the world. Having a black mamba in a glass box in your council flat in Essex is rather a different proposition...
> 
> It's all about taking responsibility for your own actions and their consequences, instead of expecting others to do it for you.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> David


Thanks for the reply.

I did a google of you and it became obvious very quickly that you have far far more experience in the subject that I.

However I still am off the opinion I first gave, I personally see little difference between someone being injured racing an imported (I write that becuase of your Berus example) NASCAR style racing car and receiving a bite. Both are 'unneccecary' (depending who is giving the verdict) and non-native risks. However it's all about personal opinions, yours are perhaps a little more conservative than mine.

We have the best healthcare system in the world, which the governement has decided will treat injuries & illness causes by personal choice for free.

Thanks. Owen.


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## Snakes Incorporated

Owzy said:


> I think all SiUK is saying is you come across as quite hostile in your posts...


 I apologies as that was not my intention.: victory:


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## Gabonica

toxinologist said:


> Having a black mamba in a glass box in your council flat in Essex is rather a different proposition...
> 
> It's all about taking responsibility for your own actions and their consequences, instead of expecting others to do it for you.


That's a very rude and judgemental statement. I think the majority of venomous snake keepers are very far removed from that stereotypical view.

Although strongly disagreeing with your opinions of snake keepers, I do agree that their should be some form of medical insurance taken out to cover any 'accidents' and possible expense. However, this can be said of most dangerous pastimes and even jobs. There are far worse drains on the NHS than venomous snake owners.


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## mad martin

Shaun, for once I am going to disagree with you.

Cape Cobras have a very potent venom, but the technicalities aside, they do not inject nearly the quantity as you would receive from a Black Mamba bite. Secondly, is the position of the bite. Mambas are different to most elapids in not needing to strike down, like say a Cobra. So bites are invariably in the upper regions of the body, simply due to its size. Mambas also do not believe in dry bites, which means that a bite was intended to kill you. Thirdly, a mamba on the defensive bites repeatedly. This means that you will receive more than one bite in your encounter.
An untreated mamba bite will prove fatal 100% of the time.


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## Snakes Incorporated

I agree that a mamba’s venom has a potent neurotoxin effect and these animals can strike more than once. I also agree that a mamba over doses its victim. It’s also been said that 30% of black mamba bites are to the upper body or face due to its size.
What I’m saying is that mamba invenomation can be treated symptomatically the same as a Cape Cobra. This I said because someone stated earlier that without anti-venom the victim has no chance at all. 
I also believe that drop for drop cape cobra venom is more toxic than a black mamba.


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## Rikki

Snakes Incorporated said:


> I also believe that drop for drop cape cobra venom is more toxic than a black mamba.


If i'm not mistaken, i believe venom isn't delivered in a "drop for drop" fashion


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## mad martin

It certainly is Shaun, I mean we both know that Cape Cobras are responsible for more snakebite deaths than any other snake in the Western Cape.
Black Mambas need aggressive, fast treatment to prove effective. Without it, victims will die. That is the point they tried to make. First Aid etc. and even a ventilator will not save your life.


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## Snakes Incorporated

Rikki said:


> If i'm not mistaken, i believe venom isn't delivered in a "drop for drop" fashion


Rikki 'drop for drop' is a figure of speech. Have you a problem with that or do you want to spit hairs about it? Must I also explain what 'spitting hairs' mean because it is also a figure of speech?

Sien what ek bedoel Martin die mense is kinderagtag.


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## Snakes Incorporated

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Rikki 'drop for drop' is a figure of speech. Have you a problem with that or do you want to spit hairs about it? Must I also explain what 'spitting hairs' mean because it is also a figure of speech?
> 
> Sien what ek bedoel Martin die mense is kinderagtag.





mad martin said:


> … even a ventilator will not save your life.


Heart lung machine yes but we are aware of people dying even after being treated with this. It is not “fool proof” but neither is any-venom in some cases.


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## Snakes Incorporated

Splitting hairs not spitting hairs. Anti-venom and not any-venom.


My apologies:blush:


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## HABU




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## leecb0

*we won*

David is proberbly peeved still cos WE won the ASHES
You know how sensitive the OZZIES are
lol
but i agree what we have a medical system over here that will treat us what ever stupid foolish pastime we do. i for instance as well as keeping DWA also drag race and if i crash at 250 mph i will have a helicopter fly me to hospital then doxens of nurses and doctors/surgens will sort me out. I hope...lol. so should we ban this and other dangerouse pastimes? also i have been paying into this system like millions of others a lot of money over the years and i have never really used it.
also not all antivonom is imported as we have facilities in this country to make our own and have been reserching this subject for many years.


sits back and waits for everyone to give me grief.....lol
I am looking forward to your new book though on venom bite in PNG David when will it be available?


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## HABU

keeping hots or riding motorcycles... it makes no matter... you assume complete responsibility with that stuff...

... i've been bitten and a friend was too.. nothint too bad but man... these things are for sober and careful keepers...

elapids would be at the bottom of my list... as amazing as so many are... i feel better with rattlesnakes and other pit viper and vipers... those squirrely, fast thing are above my level of expertise!!!

give me a big eastern diamondback any day over a hyper elapid...


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## SWMorelia

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Rikki 'drop for drop' is a figure of speech. Have you a problem with that or do you want to spit hairs about it? Must I also explain what 'spitting hairs' mean because it is also a figure of speech?
> 
> *Sien what ek bedoel Martin die mense is kinderagtag*.


Ek vind jy baie agressief en regs van jou eie bodem, en dit is onbeskof om te praat oor die mense in jou eie tong wanneer hulle rond ... Veral as jy is onbeskof word oor hulle ....


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## croc&chewy

Your snake is awesome


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## stuartdouglas

SW-morelia said:


> Ek vind jy baie agressief en regs van jou eie bodem, en dit is onbeskof om te praat oor die mense in jou eie tong wanneer hulle rond ... Veral as jy is onbeskof word oor hulle ....


Hy het 'n ware kleef aan sy naars oor enige iemand wat weet wat hulle praat. As hy's so slim, hoe kom ons nog nooit enige navorsing deur hom gesien?


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## mad martin

The afrikaans on a UK forum is actually pretty good. 
Shaun, calm down swaer


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## SWMorelia

stuartdouglas said:


> Hy het 'n ware kleef aan sy naars oor enige iemand wat weet wat hulle praat. As hy's so slim, hoe kom ons nog nooit enige navorsing deur hom gesien?


Want sy's nie 'n sleutel bord vegter ... 
Sy hoef nie haar self te verduidelik aan iemand nie, en as jy dit nie eens, sy sal alle shitty oor jou kennis .... kry LOL 
Jammer dat ons nie weet hoe om te praat nie Albanian ....:whistling2:


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## mad martin

Some nice polylepis pics


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## Herpster

mad martin said:


> Some nice polylepis pics
> 
> image
> 
> Nice pictures!
> 
> Are you from S.A? If so I know why you call yourself Mad, it was you that spent time enclosed with all those snakes wasnt it? Any Mad moments during the time?


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## mad martin

Yes it was me.
And there were plenty 
I think my brain stopped working for that time


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## Herpster

LOL, mad, mad, mad, 

but it was for charity mate :2thumb:

anyhow well done for raising the money!! Any mor fund raisers planed?


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## SWMorelia

mad martin said:


> Yes it was me.
> And there were plenty
> I think my brain stopped working for that time


Well I don't know if your credibility just went up or down admitting that:lol2:
But at least we get some background to who you are, 
and the fact your mad:no1:
Plus you are not offensive with your posts, so welcome on board.....


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## mad martin

Ha ha ha ha thanks..... I think? 

@ Herpster: no, my days living with snakes is over. Its like the army. Great, but you never want to do it again


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## Snakes Incorporated

stuartdouglas said:


> Hy het 'n ware kleef aan sy naars oor enige iemand wat weet wat hulle praat. As hy's so slim, hoe kom ons nog nooit enige navorsing deur hom gesien?


Stuartdouglas want ek het nooit gese ek navorsingswerk doen met Indonesian Komodo Dragons. Ek het gese’ date dare nog meer werk gedoen moet word om vir my te oortuig wat Bryans se navorsings voorstel. 

Julle is kinderagtig om te dink dat almal moet net glo en nie vir hulle self moet dink nie. Sw-morelia in my oe is jy `n dwas met niks tussen jy bliksem se ore het nie. Gebruk a bietjie verstant vor dat jy praat. Los my uit asablief want jy persoonlike aantuigens iriteur my.


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## Snakes Incorporated

Hey Martin I read that someone in KZN is doing a micro-chip tracking studies with these animals. You heard anything your side?


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## mad martin

Not just in KZN, but all the way through Swaziland.
Its really to track the movements in the cane fields in particular, as its there where confrontations happen most. 
In Swaziland they are extremely common, especially near Big Bend by the sugar cane fields. So it is perfect for Black Mamba studies. The data coming off that study is going to be insane


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## Snakes Incorporated

If you hear anything about this study pls cc me. A friend did a similar study with Cape Cobra some years back. 
The info gathered was a real eye opener on there behavior Patten. I’ve used this information in assisting me catching elusive cobras in residential areas.


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## mad martin

I will definitely keep you up to speed


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## SWMorelia

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Stuartdouglas want ek het nooit gese ek navorsingswerk doen met Indonesian Komodo Dragons. Ek het gese’ date dare nog meer werk gedoen moet word om vir my te oortuig wat Bryans se navorsings voorstel.
> 
> Julle is kinderagtig om te dink dat almal moet net glo en nie vir hulle self moet dink nie. Sw-morelia in my oe is jy `n dwas met niks tussen jy bliksem se ore het nie. Gebruk a bietjie verstant vor dat jy praat. Los my uit asablief want jy persoonlike aantuigens iriteur my.


Goed, net soos ek kronkel en jy, jy is so op jouself jy is waarskynlik op soek na uit jou eie mond ....
Dydych chi yw'r unig un sy'n gallu defnyddio iaith arall i bobl sarhad. Rwyf hefyd yn gallu defnyddio fy mamiaith ..... Ond gyffredinol Dydw i ddim bod yn anghwrtais, ac unrhyw un sy'n methu heb drafodaeth gorwedd i ennill pwyntiau yna troi at sarhad werth fy amser o'r dydd ...


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## Snakes Incorporated

Doen assablief vir almal `n groot gunsie boetman. Vertaal jou-moer en dink daar aan? Ek vra die klein dwars om vir my uit te los. Hoer jy jou bliksiem?


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## NinjaTurtle

Whoa

cant believe some one actually keeps a black mamba in the uk, dude you got some guts. Can some one tell me roughly how much black mambas are worth?


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## snakekeeper

wie anders weet hoe om hierdie taal praat?:whistling2:


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## HABU

NinjaTurtle said:


> Whoa
> 
> cant believe some one actually keeps a black mamba in the uk, dude you got some guts. Can some one tell me roughly how much black mambas are worth?


 
kingsnake.com Classifieds: MAMBAS, MAMBAS, and more MAMBAS. - E.A. Green Mambas, W.A. Green Mambas, & Black Mambas.


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## stuartdouglas

NinjaTurtle said:


> Whoa
> 
> cant believe some one actually keeps a black mamba in the uk, dude you got some guts. Can some one tell me roughly how much black mambas are worth?


recent prices are €700 a pair


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## mikeyb

personally id rather take a hit of the mamba than that cobra. from my understanding mamba venoms pretty much a straight toxin for example pure ethanol where as cobra venoms more like vodka theres other elements that are not exactly plesent. and from what ive read i do think it should be the responsibility of the keeper to pay for AV the system at the moment is half arsed. i drive a 400bhp drift car i supply my own saftey equipment so why should someone else following there adrenalin rush. but i do agree with snakes incorp AV should only be used as a last resort not the 1st like some people seem to think its not a magic potion :bash:. with a pure neuro toxin like mamba venom life support i would say is the most critical part then AV. my old mans had 2 transplants of kidney and pancreas so ive see the results when ur body begins to reject another human tissue let alone something from horses etc..... this said what makes no sense to me is how they can make insulin from pigs and theres not the same issue with anaphalaxis ????


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## mitsi

mad martin said:


> Not just in KZN, but all the way through Swaziland.
> Its really to track the movements in the cane fields in particular, as its there where confrontations happen most.
> In Swaziland they are extremely common, especially near Big Bend by the sugar cane fields. So it is perfect for Black Mamba studies. The data coming off that study is going to be insane


I dont know anything about these snakes or their venom, but ive been watching bits about this on tv, some good info on them. Have you been involved at all? Must admit the mambas are my favourite venemous but I prefer to watch/see them as they should be.


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## southwest vipers

mikeyb said:


> personally id rather take a hit of the mamba than that cobra. from my understanding mamba venoms pretty much a straight toxin for example pure ethanol where as cobra venoms more like vodka theres other elements that are not exactly plesent. and from what ive read i do think it should be the responsibility of the keeper to pay for AV the system at the moment is half arsed. i drive a 400bhp drift car i supply my own saftey equipment so why should someone else following there adrenalin rush. but i do agree with snakes incorp AV should only be used as a last resort not the 1st like some people seem to think its not a magic potion :bash:. with a pure neuro toxin like mamba venom life support i would say is the most critical part then AV. my old mans had 2 transplants of kidney and pancreas so ive see the results when ur body begins to reject another human tissue let alone something from horses etc..... this said what makes no sense to me is how they can make insulin from pigs and theres not the same issue with anaphalaxis ????


We would like to buy our own anti venom but the NHS rules forbid the private purchase of medicines to be used by the NHS. They say," don't worry about paying for anti venom. We'll just charge the taxpayer" . So if you could work a bit harder, do some overtime and pay a bit more tax, the venomous community will be ever so grateful. As for the ' mamba versus cobra bite' experiment, I'm sure you will oblige us when I come to do the next talk. Cheers Mike!


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## Cleopatra the Royal

mikeyb said:


> personally id rather take a hit of the mamba than that cobra. from my understanding mamba venoms pretty much a straight toxin for example pure ethanol where as cobra venoms more like vodka theres other elements that are not exactly plesent. and from what ive read i do think it should be the responsibility of the keeper to pay for AV the system at the moment is half arsed. i drive a 400bhp drift car i supply my own saftey equipment so why should someone else following there adrenalin rush. but i do agree with snakes incorp AV should only be used as a last resort not the 1st like some people seem to think its not a magic potion :bash:. with a pure neuro toxin like mamba venom life support i would say is the most critical part then AV. my old mans had 2 transplants of kidney and pancreas so ive see the results when ur body begins to reject another human tissue let alone something from horses etc..... this said what makes no sense to me is how they can make insulin from pigs and theres not the same issue with anaphalaxis ????



That's the system in Europe, no DWA licence but you have to pay for your own bite treatment.

I don't smoke, am slim and don't drink excessively, but tax I pay goes to the treatment of smoking lung cancer patients, liver transplants for alcoholics and the treatment for obese cardiac arrest patients. So by your thesis, should they have to pay for their own treatments as well?


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## coldestblood

mikeyb said:


> personally id rather take a hit of the mamba than that cobra. from my understanding mamba venoms pretty much a straight toxin for example pure ethanol where as cobra venoms more like vodka theres other elements that are not exactly plesent. and from what ive read i do think it should be the responsibility of the keeper to pay for AV the system at the moment is half arsed. i drive a 400bhp drift car i supply my own saftey equipment so why should someone else following there adrenalin rush. but i do agree with snakes incorp AV should only be used as a last resort not the 1st like some people seem to think its not a magic potion :bash:. with a pure neuro toxin like mamba venom life support i would say is the most critical part then AV. my old mans had 2 transplants of kidney and pancreas so ive see the results when ur body begins to reject another human tissue let alone something from horses etc..... this said what makes no sense to me is how they can make insulin from pigs and theres not the same issue with anaphalaxis ????


 Are you serious? Yes, you may pay for your own safety equipment, but if you lose control of your 400bhp car, it's the money from the tax payers that pay for your time in the hospital, the medication you need, and the time and money it costs to get you well again. Oh, and the tax payer also pays for the damage your car causes to railings, traffic lights, lampposts, bollards and anything else you hit. Then there's the people you can injure in a crash. Why shouldn't you have to pay for their recovery too?

We also but buy our own safety equipment, such as hooks, tongs, tubes, face masks and all that. And, if someone does get injured by a venomous snake, it's ALWAYS the owner. Car crashes injure, disable and kill innocent people all the time.


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## coldestblood

mikeyb said:


> personally id rather take a hit of the mamba than that cobra. from my understanding mamba venoms pretty much a straight toxin for example pure ethanol where as cobra venoms more like vodka theres other elements that are not exactly plesent. and from what ive read i do think it should be the responsibility of the keeper to pay for AV the system at the moment is half arsed. i drive a 400bhp drift car i supply my own saftey equipment so why should someone else* following there adrenalin rush.* but i do agree with snakes incorp AV should only be used as a last resort not the 1st like some people seem to think its not a magic potion :bash:. with a pure neuro toxin like mamba venom life support i would say is the most critical part then AV. my old mans had 2 transplants of kidney and pancreas so ive see the results when ur body begins to reject another human tissue let alone something from horses etc..... this said what makes no sense to me is how they can make insulin from pigs and theres not the same issue with anaphalaxis ????


 Following an adrenaline rush? Just shows how little about how venomous snakes are kept, and how we handle them. 

If you get an adrenaline rush working with venomous, then you're doing something wrong. A good, experienced handler can work with a hot in the same way as you can a harmless one. Adrenalin only comes into it if you make a mistake, and/or almost get bitten. If that happens, the best idea is to put the snake away, and come back when you (and the snake) have calmed down.


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## Razorscale

I've been keeping venomous for little over 5 years now, I get an adrenaline rush working with some of my animals. It is the fear of doing something wrong, unlike people in the UK, I have no AV where I live, the closest place is Liverpool and it is a fair distance away from the Republic of Ireland.

I find you get said adrenaline rush when you are working with new species as they are unlike what you can have dealt with before. My kaouthia doesn't like the hook, biting it and striking at me when I go near her with it, when I hook her she swings and spins around and bites everything she comes in contact with. I use a long hook and venom defender gloves when dealing with any of my animals, unless I have to get hands on. After awhile working with an animal that makes me uncomfortable I get more calm and don't get an adrenaline rush then.


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## coldestblood

Razorscale said:


> I've been keeping venomous for little over 5 years now, I get an adrenaline rush working with some of my animals. It is the fear of doing something wrong, unlike people in the UK, I have no AV where I live, the closest place is Liverpool and it is a fair distance away from the Republic of Ireland.
> 
> I find you get said adrenaline rush when you are working with new species as they are unlike what you can have dealt with before. My kaouthia doesn't like the hook, biting it and striking at me when I go near her with it, when I hook her she swings and spins around and bites everything she comes in contact with. I use a long hook and venom defender gloves when dealing with any of my animals, unless I have to get hands on. After awhile working with an animal that makes me uncomfortable I get more calm and don't get an adrenaline rush then.


I find adrenaline distracting. It has happened a few times when working with a new snake, which is a bit more tricky than I expected, but that's when I stand back for a few minutes to compose myself, and plan how I'm going to do what needs doing.


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## mikeyb

coldestblood said:


> I find adrenaline distracting. It has happened a few times when working with a new snake, which is a bit more tricky than I expected, but that's when I stand back for a few minutes to compose myself, and plan how I'm going to do what needs doing.


u see i surf and i also take my car drifiting on a track so i find adrenaline focuses my mind even more in high intense situations and i have my own private medical insurance so the only cost would potentially come from a and e and an ambulance. But i paid for a roll cage helmet flame retardent suit etc so the chances of serious injury are greatly reduced this isnt the case with any venomous snake the only way to make one safer is to venomoid it which is completely wrong. my point was if someone chooses to own a venomous snake or anything like that then the costs should be on them to cover the costs of AV etc not the tax payers. no different to how the lifeboat works if u screw up in the ocean thats all donated money mainly from people who have prev been rescued. :whistling2: . plus im pretty sure with the amount of tax that all the smokers pay or alcoholics etc is way more than the nhs fork back out on treating the few people that become ill from it. this isnt the case with venomous 1 bite and ur potentially going in a wooden box dont u think that if big pharma companies had more people buying av that the price would dramatically reduce to be affordable and possibly even more research into it to eventually make synthetic magic potions the public seems to believe AV is. i mean how good would it be if they could make something in a lab which didnt have the adverse reactions of horse blood etc like theyve managed with insulin. all it would take is for all hot keepers to start paying for a regular supply of AV = more research = cheaper more effective product.

Take for example prohibition of narcotics and this endless war on drugs that is a losing battle. if they taxed it regulated it like the existing ones i.e coffee,booze and cigs plus pharmacuticles pretty sure theres more tax coming in than costs going out the whole dwa thing is backwards.


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## mikeyb

its all about supply and demand and AV development will not improve anywhere near as fast as it would do if it was able to be purchased by hot keepers be a requirement of a dwa licence and that money can then go back into R and D. which in turn makes u guys safer the whole dwa licence concept is holding research back the way its set at the moment (take for example coral snake av theyve stopped making it because its expensive and there isnt enough demand as hot keepers cant buy it and everyone goes on about how dangerous it is im sorry but if i had a venomous snake i would want me and the family all trained how to use it should :censor: hit the fan and u guys say its dangerous and doctors wont use it if they were perscribing it im pretty sure they would have no issue using it i mean inject urself with a diabetics insulin and see how serious that is but if u was diabetic and went hyper and needed insulin im pretty sure the paramedics gonna grab the pen and inject u with it quick sharp than let u go into a coma. and insulin imo is just as dangerous as av if administered incorrectly


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## mikeyb

southwest vipers said:


> We would like to buy our own anti venom but the NHS rules forbid the private purchase of medicines to be used by the NHS. They say," don't worry about paying for anti venom. We'll just charge the taxpayer" . So if you could work a bit harder, do some overtime and pay a bit more tax, the venomous community will be ever so grateful. As for the ' mamba versus cobra bite' experiment, I'm sure you will oblige us when I come to do the next talk. Cheers Mike!


hahaha i wouldnt fancy a bite off either but going off al cortiz info id rather a mamba than a cobra tag yh LD level i imagine there on a par but mamba venom def seems to be alot more directed to the neuro system so as long as they keep ur heart pumping and ur lungs full ur body gets shot of it over time where as cobras tend to wanna screw up other organs not just ur central nervous system lol........ this said id rather have either snake crawl across me than one of them orrible 8 legged things lol


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## Long way down

Keeping these snakes and cobras must be like a ticking time bomb we are all going to die one day but keeping these snakes could be pushing the day forward. Don't think it matters a how good you are at keeping them there has got to be a day when you thought shit that was close and maybe you made a great mistake that day like that guy a couple of years ago who died from his own cobra bite cannot think of his name but you will

Regards Dave


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## Alasse12

Long way down said:


> Keeping these snakes and cobras must be like a ticking time bomb we are all going to die one day but keeping these snakes could be pushing the day forward. Don't think it matters a how good you are at keeping them there has got to be a day when you thought shit that was close and maybe you made a great mistake that day like that guy a couple of years ago who died from his own cobra bite cannot think of his name but you will
> 
> Regards Dave


Luke Yeomans?


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## mikeyb

sorry dont agree yep mistakes can be made in anything but whats the point in living in a bubble i dont agree with the way the current dwa is set up should be a case of u buy the av after all people who drink and smoke do pay for there own care in the tax over the years.. this said the most unpredicatble thing in life is life itself so u have more chance of getting run over and wrapped in a lorries wheels and im pretty sure that hurts as much if not more than a cobra bite.... i accept the risks everytime i go surfing i may drown the only creature that i feel is unpredictable to keep are inverts from dwa to just a wasp they will all just nail u out the blue


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## House of Venom

I have never read so much 5h1t in my life.......


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## Herpalist

Why do nearly all venomous posts turn into a "do and don't debate by know it all posters" 

Stick on topic FFS and admire the snake for what it is !


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