# Sudden death of both chinese water dragons! :-C



## Akemi (Jan 5, 2010)

Hi there,

Unfortunately we've just discovered that both our Chinese water dragons have died over night! One was about 4 and a half years old (Suki) and the other about 3 years old (Sun). Suki was bought from another owner and had a little snout rub, has never laid eggs and before last Christmas, she had a mouth infection. It got quite bad and she had to go under anaesthetic twice - we really thought we were going to lose her then but she pulled through and has since appeared to be in good health. Sun was bought from the local reptile shop who seem to be pretty reputable and know what they are doing. She hasn't had any obvious health problems, although she never laid eggs, until now. 

We have no idea what could have killed them - has anyone got any ideas? Have recently been building a new viv for them and it was nearly ready, just had a few problems with a leaky waterfall and then would have been ready for them to move into their new home. Now they won't see it :-C 

I guess we'll eventually get some more dragons as we've got the new viv almost set up and we're don't want to make the same mistake, if any, again. 

RIP Suki and Sun


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## UrolithicTitan (Sep 12, 2010)

Sorry to hear that mate.
The only thing I can realy recommend is to double check all of the tank conditions and maybe get a post mortom done to see if they had any internal problems.


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## dickvansheepcake (Jul 8, 2009)

Oh no, that's terrible  I'm really sorry for your loss. I'm guessing the best way to go would be to have postmortems done on them to try and find out the cause of death. 

Again, sorry for your loss.


Jenny


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## Emma30 (Apr 18, 2008)

Really sad news so sorry, it might be something in the viv as its a bit strange that both have suddenly died overnight, maybe have a good check for faulty wiring or something like that, like i said its really strange for them both to just go at the same time

R.I.P little fellas


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## geckocrazy14 (Mar 10, 2011)

Not sure if it's the same with reptiles, BUT the wildlife sanctuary I work at, this has happened before with lagomorphs. A couple of rabbits lived together, one died, the other followed. Following post mortem results, showed there was one rabbit with an illness, the other dying of stress, presumably out of loss of a 'pal' or roomy. This could be a possibility? But I'm not sure reptiles can be affected the same way. However, who am I to say how they feel!


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## Rthompson (Feb 19, 2011)

CWD's tend not to get that attached to each other for that to be the cause, sounds like you have some form of infection going on in the tank, I'd get a PM done so you can be sure, you may find you need to dispose of the tank they were living in.

CWD's tend not to give much warning to illness unless its noticeable via the mouth / vent, My Female randomly died at the beginning of last month with zero warning, I skipped the PM as the Male is in perfect health and everything was double checked, but it's not uncommon for it to happen.


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## berbers (May 29, 2010)

Chine House vets in Sileby/Loughborough will do a PM for you - they have a specialist herp vet.

it might be a good idea to rule out any issues if you decide to get more dragons.

was all your equipment working properly? could it have been caused by a faulty stat over heating the viv?

out of interest which shop did you buy them from? i know Nottingham Reptile Centre in Sherwood had some adults in a while ago.


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## UrolithicTitan (Sep 12, 2010)

berbers said:


> Chine House vets in Sileby/Loughborough will do a PM for you - they have a specialist herp vet.
> 
> it might be a good idea to rule out any issues if you decide to get more dragons.
> 
> ...


last time I went to Nottingham reptile centre they only had an adult male CWD.
I have PM'd you regarding the only shop I think is bad that actually sells CWD's.


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## Akemi (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanks everyone. 

We bought Sun from Nottingham reptile shop 3 years ago when she was a couple of months old - they don't always have Chinese water dragons in and most of the time I think they're adults that have been rescued or given away - we had thought that it might have been nice to have the male that was on sale some time ago as maybe he could breed with sun as it looked like suki couldn't breed and we felt really sorry for him as he had quite bad snout rub. 

Having discussed things with my boyfriend after reading your replies, we think suki got ill, without showing symptoms and either passed it to sun or sun freaked out when suki died and so ended up dying of stress. They were both fine and bright green on Friday and all the levels were fine in the viv so we don't think it could have been a problem with that, plus they've always lived in that viv since we bought them and were fine. 

With suki being a bit small and quite sickly we always knew she probably wouldn't have a very long life but hoped she'd live longer than this. To lose sun as well is an even bigger shock because she's always appeared to be healthy. 

After much deliberation, we're not going to have post mortems done because most likely it will tell us there was nothing we could have done, so it seems not worth spending the money just find that out. If we use their viv or anything from it, we'll thoroughly disinfect it first. It probably won't be used though as the new one is nearly finished so will be used for any new CWD or other reptiles that require a similar set up. Also we don't really like the idea of our little scaly friends being chopped up for little benefit. So we're going to bury them in the garden this afternoon. 

Thanks again for your help and advice everyone.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

sorry for your loss,

with them both going together, wonder wether you`ve sprayed anything new in the room there`re in? or painted anything? etc


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## Morwin Nerdbane (Apr 24, 2011)

I'm know very little to nothing about CWD but just wanted to express my condolences.

I'm so sorry for your loss. I can't imagine how you must be feeling


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

I'm sorry this has happened to you but i must stress that its highly unlike to be natural facotrs given the fact that you lost both at the same time. I would strongly advise you to have a post mortem or at least have someone come and assess their living quarters.


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## Akemi (Jan 5, 2010)

Got some more news on how we think our beloved dragons died. 

My boyfriend went to Nottingham Reptile Shop earlier for some advice. The lady there asked about the set up and said it all seemed spot on, no probs there and there's no loose wiring or probs with dodgy stats or anything. 

She thinks they died from a flageollite infection - apparently it's common for them to pick it up in transit from wholesalers as there will be lots of them all packed into a small space. They show no symptoms and can die suddenly at any time. They can carry the infection for months, or in the case of our dragons, years if they are living in optimum conditions. Death from a flageollite infection can be triggered by stress or just about anything that causes the dragon's immune system to be weakened. Dragons with one of these infections may not put on as much weight as they should do and not grow quite as fast despite eating well, but as I understand that's pretty much the only visible sign.

Unfortunately, Sun fits this description - she has always had a healthy appetite but we thought she was a bit on the small side - not enough to cause concern and take her to a vets but enough to be noted. When we bought her, we made the error or not having her checked over by a vet so kept a very close eye on her for the first few months. We didn't spot anything wrong, so assumed everything was fine. What we didn't know was that she must have had a flageollite infection all this time. 

Suki must have picked the same infection up from Sun and it's a miracle she didn't die from it when she had that infection in her mouth before Christmas. 

We feel really bad we didn't get Sun checked out after we bought her but then I guess there's no guarantee even a vet would have spotted the problem as knowledge on reptiles is still limited. 

At least we know for next time I suppose! 

Suki and Sun are buried next to our patio, where it gets sunny and warm in the summer. We're going to buy a pretty plant to mark their final home.


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## violentchopper (Jun 20, 2008)

I'm sorry for your loss. It goes to show that everyone who barks on about keeping reptiles apart for 90 days or 6 months or whatever they choose is right at the time, is sometimes not right. I would say get both reptiles checked before co-habiting. Send off samples to PALS and then get the right results. Not leave it 6 months and then if they SEEM well and alive put them with another reptile. 
I'm sure there wasn't much you could have done and I imagine I would have done the same an put them together after everything seems fine. Just goes to show reptiles can have these problems for a long time, and even though they seem alright, they can be fatal to other reps.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Sorry to hear this and I express my condolences to you.

To be honest, by the sounds of this infection it will probibly have been hard for a vet to pick up on so even then it would have been no garuntee.
and by the sounds of it, the probible best thing was to keep them optimal which it sounds like you did.

but even for an infection t to hit them both and cause at exacly the same time I find concerning.
Mostly animals which have ended up with infection when together usually die one after the other not nessacerily the same time, so I would not rule out the "spraying" of something etc like pigglywiggly said also.
I also agree with the above comment that it does just show if it was the infection, that no amount of quarintine could have prevented it.

It also sounds like this can happen and be passed on so if you have any more animals which have been near the water dragons, I would seek a vet and see what they can advise and explain everything.

It also sounds like the shop you went to is very knowledgible to offer such information, you are very lucky that way as many shops are not very good in all honesty.

Once again sorry for your loss and I sincerely hope this has not put you off something which is clear you are very passionate about.


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## Akemi (Jan 5, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin: Thanks, yeah I'm very lucky to have a good reptile shop nearby, within walking distance in fact. We do now own more reptiles as a result!! I've got a male cornsnake living in the same room the dragons lived in so as a precaution, I'm going to have him checked out by a vet. Can't cope with any more deaths! We've also got three female leopard geckos as well but their vivs are in a different room. 

As the new dragons' viv is near completion, we will be getting someone new to go in it, when it's ready and when we're ready. We kinda don't want to get Chinese Water Dragons again because they just won't be Suki and Sun. Have been thinking maybe some anole lizards or basilisks... seems wrong thinking of putting anyone other than Suki and Sun in there though :-C

My boyfriend and I are passionate about our pets and trying our best to look after them well. We've also got 2 cats (ex-stray, from a rescue centre), 2 rabbits (bought at 5 months old. Their old owners had them for 3 months then decided they didn't want them!!) and some tropical fish. 

Reptiles are difficult though, we do lots of research when getting a new species but even vets don't know everything about each species. Regrettably, Suki's and Sun's early deaths show that we can try to arm ourselves with as much information as possible and still things can go wrong. However, I'm trying to learn as much as possible from what's happened so hopefully I can provide an even better home for our pets and any others we get in future.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Akemi said:


> Salazare Slytherin: Thanks, yeah I'm very lucky to have a good reptile shop nearby, within walking distance in fact. We do now own more reptiles as a result!! I've got a male cornsnake living in the same room the dragons lived in so as a precaution, I'm going to have him checked out by a vet. Can't cope with any more deaths! We've also got three female leopard geckos as well but their vivs are in a different room.
> 
> As the new dragons' viv is near completion, we will be getting someone new to go in it, when it's ready and when we're ready. We kinda don't want to get Chinese Water Dragons again because they just won't be Suki and Sun. Have been thinking maybe some anole lizards or basilisks... seems wrong thinking of putting anyone other than Suki and Sun in there though :-C
> 
> ...


I understand your pain, I lost my most beloved iguana not too long back, and it does feel wrong placing another animal into his enclosure, but another way I have to look at it is, this sort of thing should never put someone off their passion, I am going to be looking in a year or so of rehoming another and using Yodas old enclosure for something else.

I will be using a different encloisure if I go ahead with this but will not put his enclosure to waste.

If you are passionate about water dragons then keep keep them  I really really do know where you are comming from when you say that they can never be replaced. it is however entirely up to you.

basilisks are another excellent option and I am honestly pleased to see that this has not put you off, I really am passionate about corn snakes also owning 5 of them myself, so I really do hope the snake is okay.

What you mention at the end of your post is very true, we all make mistakes to learn from them, and in many many ways I am pleased you have posted this as it may help future keepers go through the prevention before it happens area first.

I would never place another iguana inside Yodas enclosure, but I would most certainly not put it to waste either.
It depends on how you look at it, and how you want and prefer to deal with it.: victory:
they would probibly not have a problem with it  considering they are now roaming freely in the heavinly forest trees.


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

geckocrazy14 said:


> Not sure if it's the same with reptiles, BUT the wildlife sanctuary I work at, this has happened before with lagomorphs. A couple of rabbits lived together, one died, the other followed. Following post mortem results, showed there was one rabbit with an illness, the other dying of stress, presumably out of loss of a 'pal' or roomy. This could be a possibility? But I'm not sure reptiles can be affected the same way. However, who am I to say how they feel!


My gorgeous MHD was definitely affected when her companion died of natural causes, hurt me to look at her, she just sat there staring at the branch he used to sit on for about a week 

Sorry for your loss


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mstypical said:


> My gorgeous MHD was definitely affected when her companion died of natural causes, hurt me to look at her, she just sat there staring at the branch he used to sit on for about a week
> 
> Sorry for your loss


 
I think us humans give animals alot less credit than they deserve emotion wise


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> I think us humans give animals alot less credit than they deserve emotion wise


I agree, we underestimate them and I have come under fire many times from so-called 'friends' for the credit I do give my animals, but i'm past caring I love them they're like family, I was devastated when my MHD passed away


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mstypical said:


> I agree, we underestimate them and I have come under fire many times from so-called 'friends' for the credit I do give my animals, but i'm past caring I love them they're like family, I was devastated when my MHD passed away


 
I sympthise, I bought 2, one died the very day I brought it home.
they are one of my favorite reptiles.

I like many others though set them up in a temperature similar to a waterdragon and I think thats what killed one. (with them needing cooler temps) I was devastated, then I bought another eventually finding a female and I bred them.

Since then the female died and the male surivived, he has survived alot, I was left homeless at one point and donated him to durham college animal care side of it, so as far as I KNOW he is still going good and strong and is doing well and this is about 2 years ago I had him for 2 and he was about 2-3 when I got him so he is about 9 years old doing the maths.

I am deffo hoping to find some more at one point, they are amazing little animals.


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## Kelvin W (May 6, 2011)

Sorry for your loss I don't no any thing about cwd but I wouldn't let the untimely deaths take you away from your passion when I list my staffy I didn't think I could get another staff because it would not be like him be it's the breed I also fell in love with and just happend to get the perfect one for me and when I got my new one I loved him just the same but every one is different my thoughts are with you


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## pebbles90 (Mar 4, 2011)

*R.i.p*

I just wanted to say how sorry I am to hear this! It's a terrible thing to have happend, and I really feel for you!

R.I.P Suki and Sun


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> I sympthise, I bought 2, one died the very day I brought it home.
> they are one of my favorite reptiles.
> 
> I like many others though set them up in a temperature similar to a waterdragon and I think thats what killed one. (with them needing cooler temps) I was devastated, then I bought another eventually finding a female and I bred them.
> ...


You may have just saved my girls life, not really been herself for about 2 days now, looked a bit pale and wasn't very active (which i know they're not typically supposed to be, but she is) on the whole a bit lethargic, read your post, checked my temps, and my temp in my house has risen sightly and mst have been affecting the viv, immediately turned off the heat bulb and left the exo-terra coller one on, and she looks amazing, whizzing all over hunting locusts and having a drink. She was too warm, I think, I got bit complacent....


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## Rthompson (Feb 19, 2011)

Definately a reason to make sure you have thermometers and Thermostats all over the place


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

Rthompson said:


> Definately a reason to make sure you have thermometers and Thermostats all over the place


I do, very high-tech setup, just got too complacent about checking them, got confident after receiving lots of positive comments from my pet shop


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## Rthompson (Feb 19, 2011)

Ahh, Unfortunately you can never afford to get complacent with reptiles, the slightest things can trigger complete decline.. and alot of them won't even make it obvious until its too late. Pain in the butt to say the least


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Rthompson said:


> Ahh, Unfortunately you can never afford to get complacent with reptiles, the slightest things can trigger complete decline.. and alot of them won't even make it obvious until its too late. Pain in the butt to say the least


Now you see their is some animals and the way the viv is setup where I have never used a thermostat.
For example a lower wattage bulb may create a basking spot depending on how far and how low you can place the bulb, and depending on how big the viv is to get a different ambient in parts of the enclosure.

I use the likes of stats where more than one basking spot is to be acheived.
I may get shouted down for this but I really don't care lol, I know it works if you do it right in the first place and check it.

Thermometers on the other hand are essential, but like I say it depends on the wattage, the position and the size of the enclosure as to whether I use a thermostat or not, if the bulb can acheive it by itself and still offer a cooler side I dont see a need, I hope that made sense.

Anyone reading this post on the other hand I would still say use stats where ever possible, at the best of times I am just stupid and have had a vast amount of expirience with the animals I do this on to look out for problems which might arise, which also plays a key factor in it.

And it usually does take some practice and fiddling at first to acheive it, on the other hand stats are still safer.


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## peterf (Jul 27, 2007)

Sorry to hear of the loss of your animals, times like this are never easy.
I would say the cause will be heat, cold or toxins.
I am not a gambling man but likelihood for 2 animals to die at the same time from some disease is zero.
Nor will one have died as a consequence of stress having lost its "room mate".
Whilst they may appear to enjoy each others company most reptiles are solitary and look out for number 1. They will not have "feelings" as we understand them for each other, except for hoping to get more food and a better basking spot than their partner.
For 2 animals to die at the same time in the same cage there must be a common factor and this is most likely to be environmental I am afraid.


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Now you see their is some animals and the way the viv is setup where I have never used a thermostat.
> For example a lower wattage bulb may create a basking spot depending on how far and how low you can place the bulb, and depending on how big the viv is to get a different ambient in parts of the enclosure.
> 
> I use the likes of stats where more than one basking spot is to be acheived.
> ...


I have an exo-terra thermometer on the cooler side, and an exo-terra something-meter for humidity, can never remember the name of the thing but it's essential for my MHD :2thumb:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mstypical said:


> I have an exo-terra thermometer on the cooler side, and an exo-terra something-meter for humidity, can never remember the name of the thing but it's essential for my MHD :2thumb:


 
thermometers are to monitor temperature, and hygrometers humidity:2thumb:
you should see about breeding them, we need more captive bred horned dragons, unfortunately just about all of them are wild caught that we see in the trade and captive bred ones tend to go very quickly and get lost among other enthusiasts so you never really quite know which ones are captive and which ones are not.: victory:

again the incubation of the eggs is very cool temps  dead easy.


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> thermometers are to monitor temperature, and hygrometers humidity:2thumb:
> you should see about breeding them, we need more captive bred horned dragons, unfortunately just about all of them are wild caught that we see in the trade and captive bred ones tend to go very quickly and get lost among other enthusiasts so you never really quite know which ones are captive and which ones are not.: victory:
> 
> again the incubation of the eggs is very cool temps  dead easy.


That was the plan when I bought my girl a male, alas he fell from his branch before he could seal the deal. Will keep a look out for an adult male though, don't want to give up, want to breed my emperor scorpion as well as they are going to become difficult to get hold of, what with declining numbers in the wild they've tightened up importing, need a male scorp too


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