# Alternative treatments for exotics



## mimozine (Feb 4, 2011)

I just wondered if anyone on here regularly uses alternative medicince for their exotic animals paticularly homeopathy and aromatherapy,and if they could give me any information and advice about how effective it was and if their animals seemed to respond the same or better than conventional treatment? The reason i ask is because although i have some homeopathic and aromatherapy treatments myself, I dont know whether its appropriate for exotic animals,obviously i would always keep our conventional vet informed,but thought that especially for preventitive stuff it was worth looking into.Thanks!


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Homeopathy? Seriously?

There's a word for alternative medicine that actually works. It's called medicine.

Homeopathy works purely on placebo and as you can't convince your animals that water has 'memory' and that by diluting something thousands of times actually makes it more powerful (I still can't quite work out how anyone actually managed to convince humans of this!) then is will be a complete waste of money and effort IMO.


On the other hand, the use of olfactory stimuli is well used to provide enrichment for exotic animals in zoos. Anything that enriches the lives of our animals can only be good. Therefore, I'll say get some smelly things for them to play with - it can't hurt. But, please save your money on the homeopathy stuff.


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## mimozine (Feb 4, 2011)

bothrops said:


> Homeopathy? Seriously?
> 
> There's a word for alternative medicine that actually works. It's called medicine.
> 
> ...


I must admit im an advertisors dream come true as regards my pets,parted with so much cash and usually its a waste of time,so trying to do my homework this time.Will definatley see what stinky toys i can find though,thanks for idea!


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

bothrops said:


> Homeopathy? Seriously?
> 
> There's a word for alternative medicine that actually works. It's called medicine.
> 
> ...


Actually there are plenty of alternative remedies scientifically proven to work in humans - St.Johns wart, Evening primrose just a couple of examples- and some do have applications for animals. On my vets advice, I have used rescue remedy for one of my dogs and it worked an absolute treat (she was biting at her rear end when in season). I know a lot of people use tea tree oil as a flea repellant.
As for exotics, I'm not too sure and it would depend on the animal but any decent vet could probably give you some ideas.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

bothrops said:


> There's a word for alternative medicine that actually works. It's called medicine.


Erm......sorry to pee on this, but acupuncture and acupressure has been shown to work on various conditions in animals from dogs to elephants. A good massage is also often beneficial. The use of weak electrical pulses for muscle problems is approved by many zoo vets. Aromatherapy is used to calm pets on bonfire night with those plug in things......so it's not too much of a stretch to assume it could have other applications. Also, cod liver oil supplements are often used for joint problems.

I would include all of these under the banner of "alternative therapies".


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

I am sure there are lots of natural plants that animals eat for a specific reason,its just finding out what and why,and then sourcing that specific plant.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

bothrops said:


> Homeopathy? Seriously?
> 
> There's a word for alternative medicine that actually works. It's called medicine.
> 
> ...



Completely agree with homeopath, i've worked with a few of the guys who have put some of the research against it together. I can't beleive people still buy into the placebo effect. it always makes me chuckle that there is more traces of fecies in the water then of the actual chemical, along with all the other faults. 

I can give some credence to some alternative therapies such as acupuncher, but homeopathy really is a joke lol. 

jay


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

5plusmany said:


> Actually there are plenty of alternative remedies scientifically proven to work in humans - St.Johns wart, Evening primrose just a couple of examples- and some do have applications for animals. On my vets advice, I have used rescue remedy for one of my dogs and it worked an absolute treat (she was biting at her rear end when in season). I know a lot of people use tea tree oil as a flea repellant.
> As for exotics, I'm not too sure and it would depend on the animal but any decent vet could probably give you some ideas.





mrcriss said:


> Erm......sorry to pee on this, but acupuncture and acupressure has been shown to work on various conditions in animals from dogs to elephants. A good massage is also often beneficial. The use of weak electrical pulses for muscle problems is approved by many zoo vets. Aromatherapy is used to calm pets on bonfire night with those plug in things......so it's not too much of a stretch to assume it could have other applications. Also, cod liver oil supplements are often used for joint problems.
> 
> I would include all of these under the banner of "alternative therapies".



Sorry for the confusion guys.

To clarify, please read this bit:



> There's a word for alternative medicine that actually works. It's called medicine.


 :whistling2:: victory:


i.e. remedies and treatments that have been scientifically proven to work are 'medicine'. This includes acupunture, massage, most herbal remedies (the only difference between 'herbal medicine' and 'medicine' is advancement of production technologies. Some are still extracted from the plant, others have been artificially produced, many have been made more potent/effective with less side effects).

We all know where aspirin comes from! 



I don't have any issue at all with things mentioned above in terms of aromatherapy, massage, acupuncture, mild electrotherapy or herbal remedies.


I draw the line at grinding up dead sea horses, rhino horn and tiger penis, people that claim water has memory and the idea that crystals, sea shells and rocks are anything other than, at best, meditation/relaxation aids.



: victory:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Not all homeopathy remedies are made from ground up dead sea horses, rhino horn and tiger penis - that is Chinese medicine surely???

I've used homeopathy on my cats very successfully, so I wouldnt' discount the use of it for exotics, depending obviously on what it was and what rep you wanted to use it on.

I'm also a great believer in herbs - after all they were 'medicine' until we started developing anti-biotics and man-made stuff.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

feorag said:


> Not all homeopathy remedies are made from ground up dead sea horses, rhino horn and tiger penis - that is Chinese medicine surely???
> 
> I've used homeopathy on my cats very successfully, so I wouldnt' discount the use of it for exotics, depending obviously on what it was and what rep you wanted to use it on.
> 
> I'm also a great believer in herbs - after all they were 'medicine' until we started developing anti-biotics and man-made stuff.



Again, more confusion! :lol2:


The 'dead sea horses, rhino horn and tiger penis' was a separate part of my list to the 'water has memory' bit (i.e. I've no truck at all with either 'destroying endangered animals so you can be better in bed', or claims that 'minute dilutions of a substance can somehow have a more potent effect').


Completely agree that herbs (and other plants) contain a plethora of useful compounds. Hence, why I was very careful not to 'poopoo' ALL Chinese medicine, only the part that involves destroying endangered species for vanity reasons.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

I think it's rather silly to knock homeopathy and even the placebo effect altogether so vehemently, when both have undeniably proven their worth in treating and curing various conditions.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

mrcriss said:


> I think it's rather silly to knock homeopathy and even the placebo effect altogether so vehemently, when both have undeniably proven their worth in treating and curing various conditions.


I think the idea that multiple dilutions of a substance (making sure there is a good 'succussion' between each dilution of course) until there is almost no physical trace of that substance left, and that each dilution makes the substance 'more powerful' is "rather silly".

(The other bits of homeopathy such as an holistic approach to good health and a detailed observation and focus on 'bigger issues' are clearly going to be beneficial, but that's not 'alternative medicine' - it's common sense. The 'drugs' that go with it, described above, are nothing but a placebo)

However, I'd be interested to read the bit where I said the placebo effect isn't real? 

Placebo works, that's well documented. The point is that for a placebo _to_ work, you have to convince yourself so much that the treatment will work that it 'does' (Though this is due to the psychological benefits of positive thinking and the fact that many of the actions a person will take will be more beneficial and conducive with the healing process if they 'believe' they are going to get better).

By definition a placebo is a 'non treatment'. It relies entirely on the patient 'believing' they are being given a treatment/therapy that WILL work....



...my point is this:

Please suggest how you would convince your cat/dog/GPR/STO/etc that the chalk tablet you are giving them is a 'really great drug that will solve all their ailments'?


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

bothrops said:


> ...my point is this:
> 
> Please suggest how you would convince your cat/dog/GPR/STO/etc that the chalk tablet you are giving them is a 'really great drug that will solve all their ailments'?


Yes I am aware of this, I'm not an idiot  But I was trying to write in relation to animals and humans.

But with respect, It just seems that your posts, delivered with a slight derogatory tone, serves only to mock the world of alternative therapy.....implying it to be hippy mumbo jumbo. That's how it came across to me as the reader, that's all. Granted, you may not have meant it this way.....but you know how things can get misconstrued RFUK style, and that's just how it seemed 

My responses were only serving to say that kind of attitude towards something that has clearly worked (whether it be on animal or humans) seems somewhat churlish.

Anyway, no worries.....who gives a toss anyway? :lol2::2thumb:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

bothrops said:


> Placebo works, that's well documented. The point is that for a placebo _to_ work, you have to convince yourself so much that the treatment will work that it 'does' (Though this is due to the psychological benefits of positive thinking and the fact that many of the actions a person will take will be more beneficial and conducive with the healing process if they 'believe' they are going to get better).
> 
> By definition a placebo is a 'non treatment'. It relies entirely on the patient 'believing' they are being given a treatment/therapy that WILL work....
> 
> ...


But that's the whole point - you cannot do that, so if you try a homeopathic remedy and it works, how do you explain that - it can't be the placebo effect - it has to be that it's because it's worked???


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## mimozine (Feb 4, 2011)

Im going to see my homeopath next week and she says she will give me any info she can,and as im later on going to take Erastus Blows to vet (APH) for check up it seems like i should be able to pick brains providing that they dont automaticlly dismiss the others views,or it may be a case of what will 'opened can of wormms' treat! BTW did use rescue remedy on Hobo (raccoon) last week after dog running loose jumped on him,I think the dogs owner prob used savlon,not sure whether remedy or cuddles in bed worked though!


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

feorag said:


> But that's the whole point - you cannot do that, so if you try a homeopathic remedy and it works, how do you explain that - it can't be the placebo effect - it has to be that it's because it's worked???


Regarding scientific papers, those conducted with any validity dismiss any findings claimed by homopothy. Which is why it is now no longer supported or promoted by the NHS and I beleive all uni courses that were providing it have now been stopped or are ending shortly. 

There were qualitative papers done on it with children and any benefits were noted as being caused by the positive attitude projected from the parent. This projection of a positive attitude is also noted as cause the same effect in animals. The same responces were noted in placebo and treatment conditions. 

I havn't ever seen any crediable research papers published in peer reviewed independent journals that have ever noted any support for it. I've spoken with loads of people who use and prescribe homeopathic treatments and it always make me chuckle with the claims they come out with, usually with no scientific evidence it works. Other then people going oh yer i felt better. HOwever any paper comparing homeopathic and placibo elicts the same response. 

If people wish to believe it thats fine. But there is no scientific support for it whatso ever, it plays of the palcibo effect of individual who spend a fortune on the magic ability of water molecules which can apparently remember all substances that passes through it. There is a higher trace of human fecies in the water then there is of the chemical they claim. 

Jay


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Well all I know is that I cat a cat with terrible colitis - he never in his entire life produced a normal stool from the day I brought him home - it was always "Mr Whippy" and a lot of blood. My vet tried everything, stool samples, elimination diet, steroids, nothing made any difference at all.

So I turned to homeopathy I already had George McLeod's book on "Homeopath for Pets". I spoke to him at the National Cat Club Show in London and followed his suggestions which made a slight difference. I then spoke to the head pharmacist at Ainsworths who suggested I use the remedy I was using, but used it alternatively with a homeopathic nosode and it worked. Although the faeces remained soft, they weren't as runny and there was no blood, he put on weight and thrived for about 3 years before it got the better of him again.

So how would you explain that??


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

feorag said:


> Well all I know is that I cat a cat with terrible colitis - he never in his entire life produced a normal stool from the day I brought him home - it was always "Mr Whippy" and a lot of blood. My vet tried everything, stool samples, elimination diet, steroids, nothing made any difference at all.
> 
> So I turned to homeopathy I already had George McLeod's book on "Homeopath for Pets". I spoke to him at the National Cat Club Show in London and followed his suggestions which made a slight difference. I then spoke to the head pharmacist at Ainsworths who suggested I use the remedy I was using, but used it alternatively with a homeopathic nosode and it worked. Although the faeces remained soft, they weren't as runny and there was no blood, he put on weight and thrived for about 3 years before it got the better of him again.
> 
> So how would you explain that??


I'm glad it worked for you. without being their to monitor the situation i can't really comment, any changes in local treatment, food, engagement, etc etc etc could effect it. Right down to a positive reflection of your emotion in believeing it will work because its the last option. It could really be anything as it wasn't controlled. 

When situations like this have tried to be replicated the same results are never found. there are people all over the show that claim things work (including the rock the keeps away tigers - a simpsons reference for you ) not saying you are, but untill they can be proven to work we dont beleive people. Loads of resaerchers have tried to show homeopathic treatments work and such studies have always failed, those few that claim to be succesfull have often made massive errors. 

I would love say its a simple answer but untill a good study finds any support for it, it wont ever be accepted. The fact so many studies found so many errors with it is the reason why it was removed from the NHS and various other bodies and lost what little acceptance it did have. 

jay


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

mrcriss said:


> It just seems that your post serves only to mock the world of alternative therapy.....implying it to be hippy mumbo jumbo.


....and there was me thinking I'd managed to sugar coat it more subtly than that...:whistling2:



mimozine said:


> Im going to see my homeopath next week and she says she will give me any info she can,and as im later on going to take Erastus Blows to vet (APH) for check up it seems like i should be able to pick brains providing that they dont automaticlly dismiss the others views,or it may be a case of what will 'opened can of wormms' treat! BTW did use rescue remedy on Hobo (raccoon) last week after dog running loose jumped on him,I think the dogs owner prob used savlon,not sure whether remedy or cuddles in bed worked though!


I'd be interested in what is said :2thumb:




feorag said:


> Well all I know is that I cat a cat with terrible colitis - he never in his entire life produced a normal stool from the day I brought him home - it was always "Mr Whippy" and a lot of blood. My vet tried everything, stool samples, elimination diet, steroids, nothing made any difference at all.
> 
> So I turned to homeopathy I already had George McLeod's book on "Homeopath for Pets". I spoke to him at the National Cat Club Show in London and followed his suggestions which made a slight difference. I then spoke to the head pharmacist at Ainsworths who suggested I use the remedy I was using, but used it alternatively with a homeopathic nosode and it worked. Although the faeces remained soft, they weren't as runny and there was no blood, he put on weight and thrived for about 3 years before it got the better of him again.
> 
> So how would you explain that??


As said by SpikeBrit, a single example doesn't prove a claim. Multiple animals exhibiting the same symptoms and gaining the same benefits under controled conditions would suggest a trend, but deeper and more robust analysis and experimentation would be needed.

It is possible that the original remedy had a lag in its effect, it could be that the original remedy solved a separate issue that then allowed the cats own immune system to fight the colitis. It could be that it just 'got better' and it just happened to do so at the same time as the treatment. It could be that your cat ate something in the garden at the same time as the treatment. It could be that the 'nosode' things actually worked. Whatever the outcome, it clearly didn't cure the root cause as you state it returned. 



I'm currently content to be 'churlish' Na_Na_Na_Na and dismiss most alternative therapies as money making schemes that prey on the desperate and emotionally vulnerable. Apart from the odd story like Feorag's (which though no doubt interesting and compelling is unfortunately no more scientifically robust than me looking out my window, seeing a red car and summising that all cars are red) and questionable testimonies from people that stand to make/lose huge amounts of money on the back of said testimonies all the evidence suggests that it is not an effective form of treatment.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Spikebrit said:


> I'm glad it worked for you. without being their to monitor the situation i can't really comment, any changes in local treatment, food, engagement, etc etc etc could effect it. Right down to a positive reflection of your emotion in believeing it will work because its the last option. It could really be anything as it wasn't controlled.


The cat by this stage was about 4-5 year old and had this problem since we got him. Nothing we'd tried worked, even to penning him up and trying an elimination diet to see if it was food related.

By the time I resorted to this homeopathy treatment, nothing else was changed. My cat isn't the only one I know of who has been 'healed' of a problem that a vet couldn't fix - my friend's cat was referred by his vet to one of the top homeopathic vets in the country, because he couldn't heal it - the homeopathy did.

It was definitely the 'turbo charge' from the nosode that made the difference, as I'd tried the other remedy months - if not a couple of years earlier.

Yes it did return, but not for another 4 years, by which time it became such a serious problem to the cat that he had to be euthanased and so i doubt homeopathy would have helped him then.

I accept your cynicism, but I find it hard to think that there's absolutely nothing in it at all.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

feorag said:


> The cat by this stage was about 4-5 year old and had this problem since we got him. Nothing we'd tried worked, even to penning him up and trying an elimination diet to see if it was food related.
> 
> By the time I resorted to this homeopathy treatment, nothing else was changed. My cat isn't the only one I know of who has been 'healed' of a problem that a vet couldn't fix - my friend's cat was referred by his vet to one of the top homeopathic vets in the country, because he couldn't heal it - the homeopathy did.
> 
> ...



I've reread my last post and it looks like i'm being rude to you and your experience. Please be assured I'm not!

With things like this, is it always difficult as the robust science refutes the experiences of the individual. It is hard to argue against someone's personal experience, especially without experiencing the same thing.

I'm not saying there is nothing at all in it - I'm saying that the methods do not stack up to scientific testing. Occasionally it _might_ work, most of the time it doesn't. 


I need to do more reading on 'nosodes' before I can carry on here!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I didn't think you were being rude at all - so don't worry. I was just asking you how you would explain it if you really 'poo poo' the idea of homeopathy?


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

feorag said:


> I didn't think you were being rude at all - so don't worry. I was just asking you how you would explain it if you really 'poo poo' the idea of homeopathy?


I'm unable to explain it - especially without a much deeper knowledge of your cat, colitis itself, the specific treatments, foods, husbandry, habits, and of course some sort of veterinary qualification/experience.

However, just because i can't explain something, doesn't mean I'll accept that oscillococcinum* is anything but a bottle of water.

I don't know why some people/animals appear to react positively to certain homeopathic remedies. That doesn't mean that I'll accept the hypothesis that claims it is due to an active ingredient being diluted to a point that it is no longer there is actually curing the ailment.




*oscillococcinum is a preparation of duck liver that is a dilution of 10^400 times. To put that in perspective there are only 10^80 atoms in the entire observable universe.

Even at 10^60 dilution, you would have to consume 10^41 pills (a billion times the mass of the Earth) in order to consume a single molecule of the original substance!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I agree with you! When you read how homeopathic remedies are made it's very difficult to understand how they can possibly work - even the least cynical person among us surely couldn't help but wonder.

However, there are cases where they have worked so what else can you put it down to - it surely can't all be coincidence??


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

feorag said:


> I agree with you! When you read how homeopathic remedies are made it's very difficult to understand how they can possibly work - even the least cynical person among us surely couldn't help but wonder.
> 
> However, there are cases where they have worked so what else can you put it down to - it surely can't all be coincidence??



Why not? The human brain is excellent at seeing coincidences as something 'more than they are not'.

i have a friend that is a very devout Christian. He wasn't when i knew him at Uni. He went travelling, he ended up in the middle of SE Asia with no money, no cards, no food, no roof and no ticket home. In desperation, he sat down in the street and prayed. About ten minutes later, a local asked him how he was and offered him a job and a bed. He put that down to Divine intervention. I put it down to coincidence. How many people have been in similar situations and NOT had the prayer 'answered'? How many people been in that situation, NOT prayed and had someone help them regardless?

For him as an individual it was a powerful and life changing event. For me it was 'just another thing that happened on the planet that day' and had nothing at all to do with any sort of deity. 

This is the issue with remedies like homeopathy. They rely on the human condition to demand cause when they see an effect, to assume pattern when there is none. Humans are also massively optimistic when it comes to assessing probability. Many studies have shown that people always underestimate the chances of bad things happening, but overestimate the chances of good things happening.


There is no way that homeopathic remedies work in the way proponents of homeopathy claim they do (see post above), however, in the small number of cases they do work it could be down to a number of things.

Taken from Wiki


Unassisted natural healing — time and the body's ability to heal without assistance can eliminate many diseases of their own accord
Unrecognized treatments — an unrelated food, exercise, environmental agent or treatment for a different ailment, may have occurred
Regression toward the mean — since many diseases or conditions are cyclical, symptoms vary over time and patients tend to seek care when discomfort is greatest, they may feel better anyway but because the timing of the visit to the homeopath they attribute improvement to the remedy taken
Non-homeopathic treatment — patients may also receive non-homeopathic care simultaneous with homeopathic treatment, and this is responsible for improvement though a portion or all of the improvement may be attributed to the remedy
Cessation of unpleasant treatment — often homeopaths recommend patients stop getting conventional treatment such as surgery or drugs, which can cause unpleasant side-effects; improvements are attributed to homeopathy when the actual cause is the cessation of the treatment causing side-effects in the first place
Lifestyle changes — homeopaths often recommend diet and exercise, as well as limitations in alcohol or coffee consumption and stress reduction, all of which can increase health and decrease symptoms
The placebo effect — the intensive consultation process and expectations for the homeopathic preparations can result in the release of endorphins or other body-effecting chemicals that alleviate pain or other symptoms, or otherwise affect an individual's biology
Therapeutic effect of the consultation — the care, concern and reassurance a patient experiences when opening up to a compassionate caregiver can have a positive effect on the patient's well-being.
Publishing standards, p-value - by definition, a positive outcome is seen as significant, if the probability of being due to chance rather than a real effect is less than 5%.[142] As a result, about 1 in 20 tests can be expected to show an effect even though there is none.[143]
Publication bias - researchers are more likely to submit positive trials for publication, and publishers are more likely to accept articles that report a positive finding.[144][145][146][147]


Admittedly some of those are only relevant to human homeopathy, but many would be relevant to pet homeopathy.


As an example of how bad humans are when it comes to 'coincidence' - how many randomly selected people do you need to have in a room to have a 50/50 chance on at least one pair of them sharing a birthday?


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

Isn't it like 20 odd people? I could work it out if I could be arsed.

Simply... Yes it can be coincidence. It is easy to latch onto positive results and claim a trend, when in fact the negative trend is far stronger.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

bothrops said:


> I'm unable to explain it - especially without a much deeper knowledge of your cat, colitis itself, the specific treatments, foods, husbandry, habits, and of course some sort of veterinary qualification/experience.
> 
> However, just because i can't explain something, doesn't mean I'll accept that oscillococcinum* is anything but a bottle of water.
> 
> ...



I'm glad you posted this, I was trying to remember the figures earlier and had a mind blank. 

Jay


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Lord Vetinari said:


> Isn't it like 20 odd people? I could work it out if I could be arsed.


 
Yep. With 23 people in a room there is a 50/50 chance that one pair of them will share a birthday.

You only need 57 people to reach a 99% probability that a pair will share a birthday.


It's completely counter to the human brains perception of 'probability'. Most people think you need at least 1/2 of 365 different days i.e. 180+ people to get a 50/50 chance of a shared birthday.


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