# venomous snake bites



## boarob84 (Sep 8, 2009)

hi there ppl

is there any uk venomous snake keepers out there who have been bit by your venomous snakes, if so can you let me know how much pain you was in and what you had to do to get anti venom. like do you buy it your self are do you have to make sure the local hospitel has it in.

see i would like some hot snakes my self but im not sure its a good idea knowing that getting bit is part of keeping snakes.


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## Jczreptiles (Sep 1, 2009)

boarob84 said:


> hi there ppl
> 
> is there any uk venomous snake keepers out there who have been bit by your venomous snakes, if so can you let me know how much pain you was in and what you had to do to get anti venom. like do you buy it your self are do you have to make sure the local hospitel has it in.
> 
> see i would like some hot snakes my self but im not sure its a good idea knowing that getting bit is part of keeping snakes.


 Not many will admit to it, I have never heard of a DWA keeper keeping antivenom in stock due to the price, short shelf life and difficulties of injecting it.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

boarob84 said:


> hi there ppl
> 
> is there any uk venomous snake keepers out there who have been bit by your venomous snakes, if so can you let me know how much pain you was in and what you had to do to get anti venom. like do you buy it your self are do you have to make sure the local hospitel has it in.
> 
> see i would like some hot snakes my self but im not sure its a good idea knowing that getting bit is part of keeping snakes.


With hot snakes, it is not advisable to have the mantra "getting bitten is part of keeping snakes". Rather you should be skilled enough with a hook to maintain the animals without ever putting yourself in a dangerous position. 

If you get bitten? Yes... it will hurt... but i have a feeling the pain would be the least of your worries  i.e. how long before you pass out? Will you lose the limb? how long without treatment before you die? 

Very few hospitals in the UK stock antivenin, but nobody keeps it themselves - it is thousands of pounds and you are no doctor - how do you know when and how much to administer? Are you going to be in any fit state to do so? Probably not. Believe it or not it is common NOT to recieve antivenin following a venomous bite if the symptoms can be treated (depending on the type of bite of course.) Antivenin has its own side effects (anaphylactic shock for example)


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## Jade01 (Feb 21, 2007)

Is it true that the only ones in the UK that stocks antivenom is Liverpool and London?


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## boarob84 (Sep 8, 2009)

chondro13 said:


> With hot snakes, it is not advisable to have the mantra "getting bitten is part of keeping snakes". Rather you should be skilled enough with a hook to maintain the animals without ever putting yourself in a dangerous position.


i have to say i dont really agree with that knowing even the best of venomous snake keepers have been bit and i should imagen thay have lots and lots of experience and part of keeping snakes is knowing there is allways a chance of getting tagged expect to get tagged by the smallest and tamest snakes and you'll never get curt off gaurd.


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## Jczreptiles (Sep 1, 2009)

Jade01 said:


> Is it true that the only ones in the UK that stocks antivenom is Liverpool and London?


 I may be misstaken but I think it is just Liverpool school of medicine.


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

Jade01 said:


> Is it true that the only ones in the UK that stocks antivenom is Liverpool and London?


This is where the NHS stocks of exotic antivenoms are kept. Some Zoos and Safari parks may keep their own supply. Various hospitals keep antivenom for _*Vipera berus*_* where British Adder bites are known to be a problem.*


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## CraigMcLean (Nov 8, 2009)

Cytotoxic venoms are an issue. Neurotoxic and Haemotoxic can be treated with Heart Lung machine and Blood Transfusions.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Jczreptiles said:


> I may be misstaken but I think it is just Liverpool school of medicine.


 
Guys Hospital stocks serum I think...Thats in London.

Regardless, a Sea King Helo can be airborn in a matter of short minutes.


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## Andy G (Sep 3, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> Guys Hospital stocks serum I think...Thats in London.
> 
> Regardless, a Sea King Helo can be airborn in a matter of short minutes.


You think, but you dont know, so why mention it. Do you have the flash to bang times for Helo medivac at your fingertips? No, so again why post? Mate im speechless, please read the advice I have put for you on the boomslang thread and put it into practice.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

> Cytotoxic venoms are an issue. Neurotoxic and Haemotoxic can be treated with Heart Lung machine and Blood Transfusions


With both neurotoxins and haemotoxins there are species that cannot be as easily treated, either because of the aggression the venom works with, or because of its direct effect.
Dendroaspis polylepis springs to mind as do Bungarus sp. with regards to neurotoxins.
Dispholidus and Thelotornis with regards to haemotoxins. Venom passing through the blood going into the brain is a serious problem.

A captive keeper really should know where to obtain the appropriate AV in the case of a bite.


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## CraigMcLean (Nov 8, 2009)

mad martin said:


> With both neurotoxins and haemotoxins there are species that cannot be as easily treated, either because of the aggression the venom works with, or because of its direct effect.
> Dendroaspis polylepis springs to mind as do Bungarus sp. with regards to neurotoxins.
> Dispholidus and Thelotornis with regards to haemotoxins. Venom passing through the blood going into the brain is a serious problem.
> 
> A captive keeper really should know where to obtain the appropriate AV in the case of a bite.


 
Absolutely, but with cytotoxins, the best effect of the anti-venom is when it is injected locally and around the bite (I have to say here that processes may have been updated somewhat since I was in the game) so you need it pretty smartly after the bite. This reduced the swelling and the tissue damage and normally allowed for good recovery. In the latter 2, if you have blood and heart lung then you can keep someone alive until the serum arrives. Hell you would have time to fly it in from SA if you had to (One qualification I need to make is that I have almost no experience with non African species but I would assume it would be the same). I have to say that I have just replied to some question on Boomslangs so I was a bit fixated on this snake when I made the reply.


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## CraigMcLean (Nov 8, 2009)

mad martin said:


> Dispholidus and Thelotornis with regards to haemotoxins. Venom passing through the blood going into the brain is a serious problem.
> 
> .


I have desperately tried to jog the old memory with this one and I am absolutley sure that treatment for a boomslang bite involved nothing but transfusions at the Addington hospital in Durban. There was a move away from AV with regard to haemotoxins generally in South Africa. This started 20 years ago. If someone can shed new light on this then I would love to hear from them.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

The treatment depends entirely from doctor to doctor with regards to Boomslang. Thelotornis and blood transfusions have only had a 50% success rate.



> In the latter 2, if you have blood and heart lung then you can keep someone alive until the serum arrives. Hell you would have time to fly it in from SA if you had to


Again, in most cases you could. 
But with a Cape Cobra bite, for example, once paralysis sets in AV will have no effect anymore.
A Gaboon bite has a pretty good chance of shutting down your kidneys etc. too due to hypovolemic shock etc.

As a keeper, its best to know who stocks the appropriate AV, and if they are willing to part with some if you get nailed.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

mad martin said:


> The treatment depends entirely from doctor to doctor with regards to Boomslang. Thelotornis and blood transfusions have only had a 50% success rate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Martin is right. But, Martin...is this the same with a Black Mamba? I think I remember you saying cape cobra venom is similar to that of a Black Mamba. How come that serum won't free the nerve receptors after paralysis? I have read on another thread saying BM venom can be treated just by life support, I think it was WW who said that...not sure. Any ideas? :2thumb:


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> *Martin is right*. But, Martin...is this the same with a Black Mamba? I think I remember you saying cape cobra venom is similar to that of a Black Mamba. How come that serum won't free the nerve receptors after paralysis? I have read on another thread saying BM venom can be treated just by life support, I think it was WW who said that...not sure. Any ideas? :2thumb:


I'm sure he will be pleased that you support him and your endorsement of his post will go a long way toward convincing others that Martin knows what he's talking about...................

FFS, give it a rest. I'm sure I said it before, but it's far better to keep quiet and let people think you're stupid, than to speak and remove all doubt.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

James, you almost have it.
Black Mamba venom travels the same route as Cape Cobra venom but does not have the same long term effect as Cape Cobra venom. So AV will still be effective.
WW is correct, in theory you should survive a Black Mamba bite on a respirator etc. But there are always things that can and sometimes do go wrong. If you are keeping Black Mambas in a country not on Africa's landmass, it is best to know where you can get the AV required in the case of a bite.
Personally, its one of the few snakes where I will insist on AV treatment. Having seen the effect and rapid onset of serious symptoms first hand, I will not take a chance on a bite.



> is this the same with a Black Mamba? I think I remember you saying cape cobra venom is similar to that of a Black Mamba. How come that serum won't free the nerve receptors after paralysis? I have read on another thread saying BM venom can be treated just by life support, I think it was WW who said that...not sure. Any ideas?


The above quote is a perfect example of a post you can expect a response from. Leave the rest of the banter out and you are on your way to earning back your respect.
James, you are in a really deep hole. Think before you write anything. Ask your questions, and if you make a statement, highlight it in quote. Ok?


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## CraigMcLean (Nov 8, 2009)

mad martin said:


> The treatment depends entirely from doctor to doctor with regards to Boomslang. Thelotornis and blood transfusions have only had a 50% success rate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are quite right, for neurotoxins, once paralysis has set in then AV does not have an effect. The patient would then be kept alive with artificial respiration (etc) until there has been metabolic degradation of the venom. This is a very lengthy process though and there is no doubt that the quicker the AV is administered the better.

We have already discussed Cytotoxins. Gaboons can inject large quantities into you and very deeply. It is a very painful bite and as said before the quicker you get the AV the better.

Something was mentioned earlier about someone dying after 30 mins from being bitten by a Boomslang - well all I can say is they must have had some sort of "other" reaction to the venom. These things can happen - I know of a girl that got bitten at the Pretoria Snake park in the back of the leg by a Puff Adder. I think she died in less than 30 mins if I remember correctly. Apparently the venom was injected directly into an artery. These things are definitely not the norm.

Having said all of this, it seems crazy to me that anyone would want to keep something like a Cape Cobra in the UK unless for research purposes. This is a very dangerous snake. Yes it is a beautiful snake, but there are a lot of beautiful snakes out there.

Working with snakes in Southern Africa, we had the facilities to deal with a bite quickly because we were dealing with indigenous snakes. Perhaps foolishly, we were probably a bit too confident in the available treatments but they were always readily available. It is very different here in the UK and I find it strange that people are allowed to take this risk and then expect the NHS to be adequately prepared and to pick up the bill when things go pear shaped. Maybe this is a bit controversial. What do you think?


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

CraigMcLean said:


> It is very different here in the UK and I find it strange that people are allowed to take this risk and then expect the NHS to be adequately prepared and to pick up the bill when things go pear shaped. Maybe this is a bit controversial. What do you think?


Why souldnt we expect the NHS to pick up the bill?

After all they pay for treatment on those who smoke, drink, ride motor cycles, drive fast cars, and even look after knobheads who take drugs!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

with me, having my heart beat like a thousand beats per minute ...(what it felt like anyway)... was the lousy part...

pain wasn't a big deal... but having your heart feel like it was going to explode was bad... i could hear it in my ears... kept me awake...


venom of any kind is bad news... it affects your whole body... not a localized thing at all as some would imagine... it's not a wound... your whole bady is fighting it... you go into overdrive very often...

yeah, your heart going a hundered miles and hour 24/7... it gets old real fast..... bom-boom-boom-boom-boom.... you get the idea.


 click to expand.

my friends old bite... he'll be over today. got a bad copperhead bite years ago... he said them scrubbing out the laid-open wound where they split him because of the swelling was the absolute worse part...

yeah, those copperheads are that venomous... yeah right!:lol2:


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## CraigMcLean (Nov 8, 2009)

slippery42 said:


> Why souldnt we expect the NHS to pick up the bill?
> 
> After all they pay for treatment on those who smoke, drink, ride motor cycles, drive fast cars, and even look after knobheads who take drugs!


Lol, yes, indeed. You do have a point there.


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

slippery42 said:


> Why souldnt we expect the NHS to pick up the bill?
> 
> After all they pay for treatment on those who smoke, drink, *ride motor cycles,* drive fast cars, and even look after knobheads who take drugs!


I had my last appointment at the Fracture Clinic this morning. Great service at the hospital across the road and it didn’t cost me a penny. Fully healed now. Just need to take care with my rifles and build my way up through to my bigger calibres because of the recoil. :whistling2:


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

> You are quite right, for neurotoxins, once paralysis has set in then AV does not have an effect. The patient would then be kept alive with artificial respiration (etc) until there has been metabolic degradation of the venom. This is a very lengthy process though and there is no doubt that the quicker the AV is administered the better.


Not all neurotoxins. In most cases AV is still effective



> Something was mentioned earlier about someone dying after 30 mins from being bitten by a Boomslang - well all I can say is they must have had some sort of "other" reaction to the venom. These things can happen - I know of a girl that got bitten at the Pretoria Snake park in the back of the leg by a Puff Adder. I think she died in less than 30 mins if I remember correctly. Apparently the venom was injected directly into an artery. These things are definitely not the norm.


Not always. Watch a Boomslang kill a live rat and you will learn new respect. Boomslang do not want to bite, so a dose for a victim is usually very small.



> Having said all of this, it seems crazy to me that anyone would want to keep something like a Cape Cobra in the UK unless for research purposes. This is a very dangerous snake. Yes it is a beautiful snake, but there are a lot of beautiful snakes out there.


Nothing wrong with keeping a Cape Cobra. Cobras, comparing to many other venomous snakes, are not too bad at all. What is important is a proper protocol.


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

PDR said:


> I had my last appointment at the Fracture Clinic this morning. Great service at the hospital across the road and it didn’t cost me a penny. Fully healed now. Just need to take care with my rifles and build my way up through to my bigger calibres because of the recoil. :whistling2:


 Good to here Paul why not try a tripod mounted .50 Garrant.just a thought
you can use it one handed


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## boarob84 (Sep 8, 2009)

slippery42 said:


> Why souldnt we expect the NHS to pick up the bill?
> 
> After all they pay for treatment on those who smoke, drink, ride motor cycles, drive fast cars, and even look after knobheads who take drugs!


 
well i feel we the uk ppl pay for it (not the nhs) i now ive been paying tax an ni since i left school but i now were your coming from.: victory:


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## CraigMcLean (Nov 8, 2009)

PDR said:


> I had my last appointment at the Fracture Clinic this morning. Great service at the hospital across the road and it didn’t cost me a penny. Fully healed now. Just need to take care with my rifles and build my way up through to my bigger calibres because of the recoil. :whistling2:


:lol2: All I can say in defence of the comments I made earlier is that the NHS will have a lot more experience treating drug problems and gun wounds than they will Cape Cobra bites!


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

leecb0 said:


> Good to here Paul why not try a tripod mounted .50 Garrant.just a thought
> you can use it one handed


Do you mean,
.50 Barrett


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

SW-morelia said:


> Do you mean,
> .50 Barrett


No i dont sorry i ment garand


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## CraigMcLean (Nov 8, 2009)

mad martin said:


> Not always. Watch a Boomslang kill a live rat and you will learn new respect. Boomslang do not want to bite, so a dose for a victim is usually very small.


I have seen Boomslangs hunt down and kill rats and mice many many times. Obviuosly they put a lot more in there. They have a lot more time. Also, a little rat is a tiny little animal. 



mad martin said:


> Nothing wrong with keeping a Cape Cobra. Cobras, comparing to many other venomous snakes, are not too bad at all. What is important is a proper protocol.


I dont want to get into an argument over which snake is more difficult than another - Cape Cobras are very poisonous, their venom works pretty quickly and they are generally accepted (in Southern Africa) as being one of the most dangerous snakes around.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

leecb0 said:


> No i dont


You'll have to show me one as it doesn't google....
Yes it does with that spelling.....


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

SW-morelia said:


> You'll have to show me one as it doesn't google....
> Yes it does with that spelling.....


 its an old WWII weapon a little like an M2 but heavyer and scarier :lol2: and thats a personal experience and not a google:lol2:


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## Swazi (Dec 13, 2009)

SAIMR antivenom should only be administered in a hospital setting and it is injected intravenously, not intramuscular or anywhere near or around the bite site as it will then only be 16% effective – or not at all. It's fine to inject in yourself if you are stuck in the middle of the bush and you don’t think you will make it to a medical facility. It’s very, very painful and you can only inject it into areas where there is little fat (most our butts would be a no-no) like the upper thigh.

It’s true that you do not need antivenom for a neurotoxic or haemotoxic bite but it does shorten the ventilator hookup time considerably (obviously only for the neuro). Without antivenom, it can take up to 14 days or more for the venom to be neutralized. With antivenom, a positive reaction can be seen within 30 minutes – blood pressure will drop almost immediately etc. 

If I was unfortunate enough to get bitten by a Boomslang, I would opt for the antivenom rather than blood transfusion. 

Keeping a DWA without emergency protocols in place is suicidal. Snakebite is serious, I can’t post pics here as our IT department does not allow us to log onto photobucket but if you have any doubts have a look on Facebook group - Swaziland snakebite victims.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Swazi said:


> SAIMR antivenom should only be administered in a hospital setting and it is injected intravenously, not intramuscular or anywhere near or around the bite site as it will then only be 16% effective – or not at all. It's fine to inject in yourself if you are stuck in the middle of the bush and you don’t think you will make it to a medical facility. It’s very, very painful and you can only inject it into areas where there is little fat (most our butts would be a no-no) like the upper thigh.
> 
> It’s true that you do not need antivenom for a neurotoxic or haemotoxic bite but it does shorten the ventilator hookup time considerably (obviously only for the neuro). Without antivenom, it can take up to 14 days or more for the venom to be neutralized. With antivenom, a positive reaction can be seen within 30 minutes – blood pressure will drop almost immediately etc.
> 
> ...


Interesting to know, Thea. 

I had a brief look at some of those pictures, and some of the ones that Dr. Bush posted...Very nasty indeed. - Is that little girl, Zama I think back with her family now?


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## Swazi (Dec 13, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> Interesting to know, Thea.
> 
> I had a brief look at some of those pictures, and some of the ones that Dr. Bush posted...Very nasty indeed. - Is that little girl, Zama I think back with her family now?


Yes she is but it took 6 months of treatment - just to think it could all have been avoided with antivenom.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

> I dont want to get into an argument over which snake is more difficult than another - Cape Cobras are very poisonous, their venom works pretty quickly and they are generally accepted (in Southern Africa) as being one of the most dangerous snakes around.


First off a snake is not poisonous, you can eat it. Its venomous. 
Secondly, a cobra (exception being a forest cobra etc) is actually a really easy snake to work with. I have given courses to many many people, some who could not even look at a photograph of a snake, and not even one close call with a cobra. Would I let them work with Taipans? Of course not. This was not a debate over which snake could do what. Because any snake is just a snake. A big, angry Nile Monitor is far more difficult to work with or catch than any snake. Snakes aren't mythical creatures with supernatural powers. Its just a snake.
People are gonna keep whatever they are gonna keep. Just have a proper protocol in place and know where you can get AV. 

As to Boomers. That snake is vastly underestimated in terms of delivery and in terms of an effective envenomation. The quantity of proper envenomations is not enough to really prove what they are capable of. If you are comfortable with waiting a few hours for your blood transfusion, cool. If I get bit, I am going to do all I can to get hold of Boomer AV as fast as possible. They were the only snakes I would have been willing to get out of my cage for had I been bit in there.


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

mad martin said:


> Nothing wrong with keeping a Cape Cobra. Cobras, comparing to many other venomous snakes, are not too bad at all. What is important is a proper protocol.





mad martin said:


> Secondly, a cobra (exception being a forest cobra etc) is actually a really easy snake to work with. I have given courses to many many people, some who could not even look at a photograph of a snake, and not even one close call with a cobra. Would I let them work with Taipans? Of course not. This was not a debate over which snake could do what. Because any snake is just a snake. A big, angry Nile Monitor is far more difficult to work with or catch than any snake. Snakes aren't mythical creatures with supernatural powers. Its just a snake.
> People are gonna keep whatever they are gonna keep. Just have a proper protocol in place and know where you can get AV.
> 
> As to Boomers. That snake is vastly underestimated in terms of delivery and in terms of an effective envenomation. The quantity of proper envenomations is not enough to really prove what they are capable of. If you are comfortable with waiting a few hours for your blood transfusion, cool. If I get bit, I am going to do all I can to get hold of Boomer AV as fast as possible. They were the only snakes I would have been willing to get out of my cage for had I been bit in there.


I have to agree with Martin. Our Cape Cobra will put up more of a battle when it comes to catching him than most other cobras, but it is still easy compared to a lot of other snakes.
And I would rather start off teaching someone to manoeuvre medium sized cobras than any of our crazy Crotalus atrox.

As regards danger, I sometimes say (tongue in cheek) they aren’t dangerous unless they bite you :whistling2:

Someone asked recently what we would do if we had a bite from a Boomslang and we had no AV... TBH I don’t really know how we would treat the situation. I will have to ask one of our clinical staff for clarification.
Oh, and I purposely steer well clear of discussing the treatment of venomous snake bites on forums, not because I don’t know about the subject (I do), it is because I am not a Clinician and therefore cannot give out medical information.


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## kelboy (Feb 10, 2009)

PDR said:


> Someone asked recently what we would do if we had a bite from a Boomslang and we had no AV... TBH I don’t really know how we would treat the situation. I will have to ask one of our clinical staff for clarification.
> Oh, and I purposely steer well clear of discussing the treatment of venomous snake bites on forums, not because I don’t know about the subject (I do), it is because I am not a Clinician and therefore cannot give out medical information.


It was me who asked, and I wholly respect your reasons for not answering.


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

kelboy said:


> It was me who asked, and I wholly respect your reasons for not answering.


Sorry! It wasn’t a case of ignoring you... I had just forgotten to reply... out of site, out of mind and all that :blush:
The last time we kept Boomslangs we brought in some AV from South Africa and I suspect we would do the same again when we get some more Boomslangs.


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## kelboy (Feb 10, 2009)

PDR said:


> Sorry! It wasn’t a case of ignoring you... I had just forgotten to reply... out of site, out of mind and all that :blush:
> The last time we kept Boomslangs we brought in some AV from South Africa and I suspect we would do the same again when we get some more Boomslangs.


No need to apologise. Thanks.


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## CraigMcLean (Nov 8, 2009)

mad martin said:


> First off a snake is not poisonous, you can eat it. Its venomous.
> Secondly, a cobra (exception being a forest cobra etc) is actually a really easy snake to work with. I have given courses to many many people, some who could not even look at a photograph of a snake, and not even one close call with a cobra. Would I let them work with Taipans? Of course not. This was not a debate over which snake could do what. Because any snake is just a snake. A big, angry Nile Monitor is far more difficult to work with or catch than any snake. Snakes aren't mythical creatures with supernatural powers. Its just a snake.
> People are gonna keep whatever they are gonna keep. Just have a proper protocol in place and know where you can get AV.
> 
> As to Boomers. That snake is vastly underestimated in terms of delivery and in terms of an effective envenomation. The quantity of proper envenomations is not enough to really prove what they are capable of. If you are comfortable with waiting a few hours for your blood transfusion, cool. If I get bit, I am going to do all I can to get hold of Boomer AV as fast as possible. They were the only snakes I would have been willing to get out of my cage for had I been bit in there.


You know Martin, this argument has taken on an adversarial tone when if you trace back all of the comments, I am not trying to oppose what you are saying. The gist of the argument really was, yes of course, you need to know where you can get treatment quickly. You definitely need to take the responsible steps as any sane person would. From what we have seen, there seem to be 2 main centres that can cater for snake bite (I think PDR mentioned this? Just going on what I have read here). If this was the case, I would think being bitten by a Cape Cobra in say Wales would be more of an issue than being bitten by a Boomslang. (this is where the Cape Cobra link comes in). AV for a Boomslang bite has been known to be effective if administered 82 hours after the bite. 82 hours after a Cape Cobra bite and no AV and I’d hate to know what state you would be in. This was just a point in answer to the question that was posed. Another point I made was that if you got bitten by a Boomslang you would probably have time to get it flown in from MRI in JHB. This did not imply that I advocate people sitting round waiting for the NHS to organise a quick import of the stuff – it was just a reference to timings. I am quite sure the NHS is quite prepared for someone unfortunate enough to be bitten without having to fly it in in an emergency. I am not trying to dispute facts with you, I don’t know who you are but you are clearly an authority. This was a point of view assuming that we all had a reasonable understanding of our subject matter. If you are interested in what my experience is I would be more than happy to chat to you about it, in the meantime, I am happy to converse with fellow snake lovers, and I have to say, I think it is wonderful how many people seem to have taken this rewarding “hobby”(?) here in the UK. It is certainly a lot harder here that it was for me back in SA and requires a huge dedication.


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

Yes, there are two main NHS stocks one held in London the other is here in Liverpool.
I have the luxury of having specialist clinical help on site and the Royal Liverpool University Hospital is literally across the road. My last bite was in 2002 and I was able to walk across to the hospital and be admitted in less than 10 minutes. I have worked with venomous snakes in remote areas of Africa and I do find myself taking extra care knowing that I am hours away from the nearest hospital.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

PDR said:


> Yes, there are two main NHS stocks one held in London the other is here in Liverpool.
> I have the* luxury *of having specialist clinical help on siteand the Royal Liverpool University Hospital is literally across the road. My last bite was in 2002 and I was able to walk across to the hospital and be admitted in less than 10 minutes. I have worked with venomous snakes in remote areas of Africa and I do find myself taking extra care knowing that I am hours away from the nearest hospital.


TBH Paul, that's probably the first thing I would of been stipulating during the job interview... Even before wages and holidays........


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## CraigMcLean (Nov 8, 2009)

PDR said:


> I have worked with venomous snakes in remote areas of Africa and I do find myself taking extra care knowing that I am hours away from the nearest hospital.


Good sense. 

Have you ever heard of Fritz Muller?


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

CraigMcLean said:


> Good sense.
> 
> Have you ever heard of Fritz Muller?


Yes, but a little before my time. Why do you ask?


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## CraigMcLean (Nov 8, 2009)

PDR said:


> Yes, but a little before my time. Why do you ask?


Well when you mentioned trips out there I just wondered if you had met him. He was my mentor when I was a youngster and he was normally the first point of contact for people coming out. He had a lot of contacts here and I thought you might be one of them. I have lost touch with him and wondered if he was still alive.


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## CraigMcLean (Nov 8, 2009)

Another guy I am trying to get in touch with is Tony Phelps. Its a small world and if you are an academic you might know him. He came out to SA to make a BBC documentary and I caught some animals for him. He left suddenly and I still have some of his kit.


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*lethally venomous snakes*

hi all, sorry to jump in late on these posts.

Absolutely everything comes down to experience with DWA and venomous species (i say this as a FWC owner).

Cobra's appear easier to handle than Mamba for sure (from what I've seen), however Martin is clearly a very experienced handler. 

I also recall that the Austin Stephen's (is that correct?) of this world have been tagged by cobra's... and many experienced handlers besides.

It is this close contact know-how that is exactly what's required for keepers who may need to eye cap their Egyptian Cobra, Mamba or Cape Cobra that is of interest to new buyers.

When I most likely buy my first DWA.. (once my FWC is large enough to vacate present viv) ..I will certainly take into consideration AV availability and/or treatment expertise locally. I'd be foolish not to.

I have "fallen in love" with the Cape Cobra of late. An odd love affair I know. But I'll definately ensure there is 100% AV availability (i read about the paralysis thing). Besides my DWA will not likely be until 2011 now . 

If I go in to buying a DWA snake with the "but I wont get bit" attitude without actually considering the potential reality of it happening then I dont deserve to own one.

At Hamm no doubt there are some hots bought without due consideration of the reality situation of the bite. What chances for survival etc and AV availability.

For this reason I say to those thinking of DWA that its the most important consideration first. Not "oh but they're so very pretty looking".

:lol2:

ps "but they ARE so pretty looking" HAHA.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

> Another guy I am trying to get in touch with is Tony Phelps


www.crepinstitute.co.za
Just go to contact and drop him a line


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

> You know Martin, this argument has taken on an adversarial tone when if you trace back all of the comments, I am not trying to oppose what you are saying. The gist of the argument really was, yes of course, you need to know where you can get treatment quickly. You definitely need to take the responsible steps as any sane person would. From what we have seen, there seem to be 2 main centres that can cater for snake bite (I think PDR mentioned this? Just going on what I have read here). If this was the case, I would think being bitten by a Cape Cobra in say Wales would be more of an issue than being bitten by a Boomslang. (this is where the Cape Cobra link comes in). AV for a Boomslang bite has been known to be effective if administered 82 hours after the bite. 82 hours after a Cape Cobra bite and no AV and I’d hate to know what state you would be in. This was just a point in answer to the question that was posed. Another point I made was that if you got bitten by a Boomslang you would probably have time to get it flown in from MRI in JHB. This did not imply that I advocate people sitting round waiting for the NHS to organise a quick import of the stuff – it was just a reference to timings. I am quite sure the NHS is quite prepared for someone unfortunate enough to be bitten without having to fly it in in an emergency. I am not trying to dispute facts with you, I don’t know who you are but you are clearly an authority. This was a point of view assuming that we all had a reasonable understanding of our subject matter. If you are interested in what my experience is I would be more than happy to chat to you about it, in the meantime, I am happy to converse with fellow snake lovers, and I have to say, I think it is wonderful how many people seem to have taken this rewarding “hobby”(?) here in the UK. It is certainly a lot harder here that it was for me back in SA and requires a huge dedication


When Snakes Inc gets on, ask him what state you will be in after 82 hours without AV from a a Cape Cobra bite. I do not even wish to see a picture of a Boomer bite after 82 hours. 
What I am trying to tell you is not picking an argument, but you choose to see it like that. Boomslang venom on the human body is not as well documented as Cape Cobra bites, simply not enough volunteers. The effects could be vastly different than speculated for the normal 3-5 days. My mother personally lost a Boomslang victim in less than 24 hours from internal bleeding. That is well shy of 82 hours. Snakes don't read books, they don't always play along. In a foreign country with an exotic snake, there can be no "Oh this snake usually takes awhile to kill". A proper protocol needs to be in place. Access to sufficient antivenom needs to exist, your physician needs to know what you keep and be prepared for that eventuality. A back up plan should never be necessary.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

mad martin said:


> When Snakes Inc gets on, ask him what state you will be in after 82 hours without AV from a a Cape Cobra bite. I do not even wish to see a picture of a Boomer bite after 82 hours.
> What I am trying to tell you is not picking an argument, but you choose to see it like that. Boomslang venom on the human body is not as well documented as Cape Cobra bites, simply not enough volunteers. The effects could be vastly different than speculated for the normal 3-5 days. My mother personally lost a Boomslang victim in less than 24 hours from internal bleeding. That is well shy of 82 hours. Snakes don't read books, they don't always play along. In a foreign country with an exotic snake, there can be no "Oh this snake usually takes awhile to kill". A proper protocol needs to be in place. Access to sufficient antivenom needs to exist, your physician needs to know what you keep and be prepared for that eventuality. A back up plan should never be necessary.


 
What state would one be in?


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

> How come that serum won't free the nerve receptors after paralysis?


Neurotoxins have different modes of action within the nervous system. A broad distinction can be made between pre-synaptic and post-synaptic neurotoxins, the effects of the former cannot be reversed with antivenom once bound, whereas the effects of the latter can generally be. This is because pre-synaptic neurotoxins alter the shape of the neuromuscular junction, meaning that is cannot function again and must be replaced. Post synaptic neurotoxins on the other hand bind reversibly and compete with neuro transmitters, but once displaced do not cause any irreversible damage. 



David.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

DavidR said:


> Neurotoxins have different modes of action within the nervous system. A broad distinction can be made between pre-synaptic and post-synaptic neurotoxins, the effects of the former cannot be reversed with antivenom once bound, whereas the effects of the latter can generally be. This is because pre-synaptic neurotoxins alter the shape of the neuromuscular junction, meaning that is cannot function again and must be replaced. Post synaptic neurotoxins on the other hand bind reversibly and compete with neuro transmitters, but once displaced do not cause any irreversible damage.
> 
> 
> 
> David.


 
Thanks. :2thumb:


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## pythondave82 (Nov 14, 2007)

DavidR said:


> Neurotoxins have different modes of action within the nervous system. A broad distinction can be made between pre-synaptic and post-synaptic neurotoxins, the effects of the former cannot be reversed with antivenom once bound, whereas the effects of the latter can generally be. This is because pre-synaptic neurotoxins alter the shape of the neuromuscular junction, meaning that is cannot function again and must be replaced. Post synaptic neurotoxins on the other hand bind reversibly and compete with neuro transmitters, but once displaced do not cause any irreversible damage.
> 
> 
> 
> David.


Very well put David, and I think I read somewhere on the forum yesterday that after a neurotoxic bite, a/v is not effective – this is not the case, death adder a/v can be given fairly late and still turn the victim around (being a post-synaptic neurotoxin). This is where taipan’s pose great problems; they are both post-synaptic and pre-synaptic. (Other complications also get thrown into the equation)

Cheers,

Dave


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

pythondave82 said:


> This is where taipan’s pose great problems; they are both post-synaptic and pre-synaptic. (Other complications also get thrown into the equation)


 
Hi, Dave,

I was watching a Discovery Channel series in the summer called "I Was Bbitten" - Featured a lot of snakebites, including David Weather's unfortunate Monacled Cobra bite to the lower abdomen. On September 11th, 2001 not only was America in shock due to the horrific terrorist attacks, but a keeper in Miami, Florida was tagged while cleaning cages from a PNG Taipan. (I cannot remember his name, but he maintained a very large collection). The correct antivenom was in short supply at the Miami Dade Fire Dpt's Venom One unit and he needed serum. The only two deffinate places where serum was available was New York (Out of the question) and San Diego. It was 30 hours after the bite when he recieved the first administration of antivenom.

You meantioned that there can be similar complications in Taipan venom...but how did he manage to recover so rapidly if paralysis had set in? - Thats a confusing one.


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## pythondave82 (Nov 14, 2007)

ViperLover said:


> Hi, Dave,
> 
> I was watching a Discovery Channel series in the summer called "I Was Bbitten" - Featured a lot of snakebites, including David Weather's unfortunate Monacled Cobra bite to the lower abdomen. On September 11th, 2001 not only was America in shock due to the horrific terrorist attacks, but a keeper in Miami, Florida was tagged while cleaning cages from a PNG Taipan. (I cannot remember his name, but he maintained a very large collection). The correct antivenom was in short supply at the Miami Dade Fire Dpt's Venom One unit and he needed serum. The only two deffinate places where serum was available was New York (Out of the question) and San Diego. It was 30 hours after the bite when he recieved the first administration of antivenom.
> 
> You meantioned that there can be similar complications in Taipan venom...but how did he manage to recover so rapidly if paralysis had set in? - Thats a confusing one.


Not sure the ins and outs of the bite and what exact symptoms he suffered from or how he was treated, a/v is not always given. There was another very bad bite on the same day, any ideas who it was????:whistling2:

Dave


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

pythondave82 said:


> Not sure the ins and outs of the bite and what exact symptoms he suffered from or how he was treated, a/v is not always given. There was another very bad bite on the same day, any ideas who it was????:whistling2:
> 
> Dave


 
Jim Harrison, Bill Haast, Bab Clarke? Yourself? Who??


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## pythondave82 (Nov 14, 2007)

ViperLover said:


> Jim Harrison, Bill Haast, Bab Clarke? Yourself? Who??


'Bab Clarke', what by one of his retics? No!

IN MEMORY OF JOSEPH SLOWINSKI, 1962-2001


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

pythondave82 said:


> 'Bab Clarke', what by one of his retics? No!
> 
> IN MEMORY OF JOSEPH SLOWINSKI, 1962-2001


 
Ahh Joe Slowinski..I remember now, the Many-banded Krait wasn't it? I remember Mark O'Shea saying he stuck his hand in the bag after someone telling him it was a harmless mimic...without checking beforehand. - He was doomed with no Antivenom at the time, correct?? (Vaigly remember what Mark said)


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## kelboy (Feb 10, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> Ahh Joe Slowinski..I remember now, the Many-banded Krait wasn't it? I remember Mark O'Shea saying he stuck his hand in the bag after someone telling him it was a harmless mimic...without checking beforehand. - He was doomed with no Antivenom at the time, correct?? (Vaigly remember what Mark said)


I suggest you but this book, or ask for it for xmas or something. It's a fantastic read.

Snake Charmer Book


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

kelboy said:


> I suggest you but this book, or ask for it for xmas or something. It's a fantastic read.
> 
> Snake Charmer Book


Cheers! - Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the snake on the front cover is a Many-banded Krait?


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*books*

on the subject of books:

Mark O'Shea's 

"Venomous Snakes of the World"

and

"Boas and Pythons of the World"

are both FANTASTIC books, for enjoyable reading and reference purposes.

My brother and I have a copy each of the Venomous one!! Yep that good and I don't mind plugging it for all its worth. Buy it. Thank me after.

:lol2:

cheers maffy


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

maffy said:


> on the subject of books:
> 
> Mark O'Shea's
> 
> ...


Cheers Maffy,

I'm going to purchase Marks 'Venomous snakes of the World' book..and hopefully get it signed too!


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## kelboy (Feb 10, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> Cheers! - Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the snake on the front cover is a Many-banded Krait?


It is. It being the snake that ended his life.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

kelboy said:


> It is. It being the snake that ended his life.


 
It's very unfortunate that he paid the ultimate price for somebody elses mis-identification which lead to him not checking before placing his hand in the bag. So sad.

Rest in Peace Joe. :notworthy:


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## kelboy (Feb 10, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> It's very unfortunate that he paid the ultimate price for somebody elses mis-identification which lead to him not checking before placing his hand in the bag. So sad.
> 
> Rest in Peace Joe. :notworthy:


You could say that he should have checked himself, unfortunately he didn't. If you read the book, you can make your own mind up as to who was at fault. His assistant was bitten by the snake in question the previous night, which presented no ill effects, which led to the misidentification, unfortunately, Joe didn't check himself.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

kelboy said:


> You could say that he should have checked himself, unfortunately he didn't. If you read the book, you can make your own mind up as to who was at fault. His assistant was bitten by the snake in question the previous night, which presented no ill effects, which led to the misidentification, unfortunately, Joe didn't check himself.


 
I can only assume it was a dry bite?

I'm not going to point any fingers...as that'd be just disrespectful. But being Elapids, they can't fold their fangs correct? So surely his assistant would've noticed fang marks?...Its a mistery.


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## Azemiops (May 1, 2008)

kelboy said:


> It is. It being the snake that ended his life.


 
The snake on the cover of the book is a yellow banded Krait, Bungarus fasciatus. Im not quite sure why they put that species on the cover rather than the many banded krait though.


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## kelboy (Feb 10, 2009)

Azemiops said:


> The snake on the cover of the book is a yellow banded Krait, Bungarus fasciatus. Im not quite sure why they put that species on the cover rather than the many banded krait though.


Sorry, my mistake. It may say inside the cover, but I left the book in America.


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## kelboy (Feb 10, 2009)

On a side note, does anyone know why _Bungarus multicinctus multicinctus_ is sometimes called the umbrella snake as well as its more common name?


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

*A moment to laugh...*



kelboy said:


> On a side note, does anyone know why _Bungarus multicinctus multicinctus_ is sometimes called the umbrella snake as well as its more common name?


 
Because people use them to stop theirselves getting drenched in the rain ofcourse!:Na_Na_Na_Na: :lol2:

Umbrella snake? WTH?!


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## paulrimmer69 (Oct 26, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> Cheers Maffy,
> 
> I'm going to purchase Marks 'Venomous snakes of the World' book..and hopefully get it signed too!


hmmm it will be interesting to see what mark would write in it if he knew it was for you:lol2:


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