# Hi - Dart Frog Newb...



## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

Hello Phib people 

I've strayed over from the snake section of the forum. I've been keeping a couple of species of snakes for a little while now, and have been lurking around on this section stealing all your ideas for setting up a dart viv.

I have a two foot aquarium that is vacant which I'm looking at converting for housing a couple of darts.

First question (of many I'm sure) - I've quite taken to Bumblebees (D. leucomelas?) and "Blue" dart frogs (D. Azureus?) - are these tollerant of each other? If not, could anyone recommend another type that would tolerate one of the two?

Also - I'm led to believe that only males call? Just how loud is the calling - as in, is it frustratingly loud, or just background noise? My aquarium is currently in the living room, I'm quite used to the sound of running / bubbling water, but not sure how loud darts call.

I'm sure I'll have a million questions over the next couple of months, so any advice for a novice would be muchly appreciated


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

First of all mixing species is a definite no no unless you are really experienced and can provide a large viv. Leucs are a great starter and very active but the males can be fairly loud. Azureus males have a very quiet call more like a buzz.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

First off I have 14, soon to be 15 vivs in my livingroom.
The frogs can call all they like (and they do lol) and it doesn`t bother us one bit.
Watching a favourite film or talking to visitors they are so unannoying.
Certain frogs can be kept together but it`s normally only for experienced keepers.
There is always the risk of one frog trying to dominate and take over his turf.
You don`t want them to be constantly fighting with each other as all that`ll happen is that one will die of stress.
Better to stick to a single morph of frog until you know what your doing.
A 2ft tank isn`t very big as such but you`ll be able to keep probably 3 frogs, Azureus or Leucs in it (but thats without knowing the full size of the tank).


Mike


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## wingzero (Oct 18, 2012)

Both those species are known to be fiercly terratorial. Both speces can be kept in small groups, this is how they live in the wild but will (most of the time) attack other species. i dont know if people have tamed them to accomadate with other species but i wouldnt reccomend it, sorry:sad:. You got to remember whats best for the animal, as im sure you will. If you do get leucomelas, did you know they are the only dart-frog to Estivate in the dry season. Anyway if you get one or the other its best kept to there own species in a small group. They are amazing frogs as well that i could rant on for days about, but i dont think thats neccesary.


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## wingzero (Oct 18, 2012)

Also Azureus are said to be easier for first time frog owners, although you should get the ones you want, as long as you put the effort in, just dont put 2 seperate species together unless you hve some real experience with them. Azureus and many other poison dart frogs make great parents too, particualy the male . Did you know that to sex Azureus, the shape of the toe can be used as females have round tips while males have longer toes with an apple-like shape, although the actual animal is smaller as well as the bellow/call, which you will probably become accomadated too, but can be quite loud, but from experience, isnt bothersome. (RANDOM fact) the gold poison dart frog is considered the most poisonous and can easily kill over 8 men, they are also though to get poison from concentrating plant poison and the insects diet that the frog will eat, even though this is irrelevant as i doubt your gonna keep poisonous plants in the vivarium. People also use to use the frog poison for coating darts, but is now being used for medicine. the yellow banded poison dart frog gets poson from ants it eats. the mimic poison dart frog is known to look like 3 of its relatives. Some dart frogs feed there tadpoles unfertilized eggs, sorry for ranting


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

wingzero said:


> Also Azureus are said to be easier for first time frog owners, although you should get the ones you want, as long as you put the effort in, just dont put 2 seperate species together unless you hve some real experience with them. Azureus and many other poison dart frogs make great parents too, particualy the male . Did you know that to sex Azureus, the shape of the toe can be used as females have round tips while males have longer toes with an apple-like shape, although the actual animal is smaller as well as the bellow/call, which you will probably become accomadated too, but can be quite loud, but from experience, isnt bothersome. (RANDOM fact) the gold poison dart frog is considered the most poisonous and can easily kill over 8 men, they are also though to get poison from concentrating plant poison and the insects diet that the frog will eat, even though this is irrelevant as i doubt your gonna keep poisonous plants in the vivarium. People also use to use the frog poison for coating darts, but is now being used for medicine. the yellow banded poison dart frog gets poson from ants it eats. the mimic poison dart frog is known to look like 3 of its relatives. Some dart frogs feed there tadpoles unfertilized eggs, sorry for ranting





wingzero said:


> Both those species are known to be fiercly terratorial. Both speces can be kept in small groups, this is how they live in the wild but will (most of the time) attack other species. i dont know if people have tamed them to accomadate with other species but i wouldnt reccomend it, sorry:sad:. You got to remember whats best for the animal, as im sure you will. If you do get leucomelas, did you know they are the only dart-frog to Estivate in the dry season. Anyway if you get one or the other its best kept to there own species in a small group. They are amazing frogs as well that i could rant on for days about, but i dont think thats neccesary.


I am not sure you can tame a Dartfrog to accommodate other species, it is usually down to trial an error, a large amount of space and experience. I have been keeping dart frogs on and off for over 10 years and I would not try to mix species unless I had a huge viv.

Adam


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

frogman955 said:


> First off I have 14, soon to be 15 vivs in my livingroom.


 Mike lives in a castle - literally! :notworthy:


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## wingzero (Oct 18, 2012)

Yeah i thought no one did so. Just not 100% sure as some people manage strange things, but yeah i thought no one had ever mixed as of there natural behavior which is why i started with there fiercly terratorial


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

wingzero said:


> Yeah i thought no one did so. Just not 100% sure as some people manage strange things, but yeah i thought no one had ever mixed as of there natural behavior which is why i started with there fiercly terratorial


Some people do mix successfully. The Dutch and Germans are big on community vivs but provide a lot of space and ensure the species chosen use different parts of the viv, hence a lot of experience is necessary. I wouldn't say they are all fiercely territorial and it can depend on the male to female ratio.


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## wingzero (Oct 18, 2012)

Yeah, the gender ratio is important, and even mire so when one bears young, making them great parents, and i kno are happy in groups. I didnt kniw the germans did that, im ve


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

fatlad69 said:


> Some people do mix successfully. The Dutch and Germans are big on community vivs but provide a lot of space and ensure the species chosen use different parts of the viv, hence a lot of experience is necessary. I wouldn't say they are all fiercely territorial and it can depend on the male to female ratio.


The clue is, though, knowing your species very well. An experienced keeper of darts or any other frog might make decisions to mix based on what they have seen with their own animals- someone like the OP, who say they are a 'newb', might want to get to know some of the species first.


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## wingzero (Oct 18, 2012)

Im very keep it like nature does, and safety first, but thats a nice little fact for me to addto what i know :2thumb:


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

Se7enS1ns said:


> I've quite taken to Bumblebees (D. leucomelas?) and "Blue" dart frogs (D. Azureus?) - are these tollerant of each other? If not, could anyone recommend another type that would tolerate one of the two?


These two frogs can hybridize. So, they would not be good tank mates. If you're first getting started, I would strongly recommend one or the other. Getting to know the natural behaviours of the frogs is important. Aggression, breeding bahaviour, etc. Forgot begging for food! :lol2: 

Leucomelas are great frogs, that will use the whole viv on a regular basis. They have a bird like call that can be loud at times, but I never get tired of it. Azureus are a larger frog and are more terrestrial. They do climb, but just not as much as the Leucs. Hey and they're blue! Their call is a very soft buzz that is barely audible. Either way, both are a good choice and you won't be disappointed.

Cheers,


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I just wanted to pop on and back up the "leave mixing until you have experience" advice here. I think not knowing that Azureas and Leucomelas and Azureas are both in the tinctorius group (Azureas are actually dendrobates tinctorius Azureas) and are so genetically compatible and can and do hybridise would support this advice.

Sticking my neck out here, it's not just the Dutch and Germans that mix. Shock horror, I have a mixed viv. I had gained experience before I did this however, and I wont go into details about it here because I wouldn't want a newbie trying to copy it and having it fail on them.

Oh and Wingzero, just to clarify, do you actually keep poison dart frogs at all? I ask, as you assertions look like they're made by somebody who had read the care sheets and is just repeating them. I mean no offense with this, however as I learned care sheets aren't worth a damn compared to the real experience of actual keepers.

Ade


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I too have a mixed viv with frogs that can`t interbreed, so NO CHANCE of hybrids.
This is the first time i`ve made it public, but for the same reasons as Ade i`ll not share which frogs or any info other than that they get on brilliantly together.
Okay i`ll let it slip that one morph is a Tinc.
It can be done, but ONLY if you know what your doing.


Mike


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## Zerox Z21 (Oct 10, 2012)

I have just noticed dart frogs myself. Very cool! I'd be curious to know what can mix simply for curiosity; I am in no position to even think about keeping them for some time.
I'm on a zoology course, so I'd be especially interested if only to know what makes them compatible. I'd assume perhaps territoriality and differences in preferred 'habitat' (arboreal and more terrestrial). I'd also not attempt it anyway without experience; is there enough issues with new people trying mixing to have caused this paranoia of revealing the species you have success with publicly?

I was going to suggest if you get into dart frogs more and think about mixing, perhaps you can have two species you think might be compatible set up in separate vivs, then if you try introducing them to one another and it doesn't work, you can move them back. Or something. Obviously I'm fairly ignorant but I thought it might make sense.


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

Look at everyone "coming out of the closet!" :lol2:

I too have a mixed viv! :gasp: Nagh, just kidding. It doesn't appeal too me... :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

I'd be interested to know what species you have mixed Ade and Mike, more just out of interest of how or even if there is interaction between the two groups.
While we're all getting things off out chest I too am going to be doing a mixed viv, just not with darts :whistling2:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi Glenn how you doing ?
You raised a smile for me there lol.

Zerox
I tell people not to mix and then i`m on here telling people that i`ve done it. 
Call me a hypocrite if you wish, but i`m not sharing what i`ve done publicly because i`m not wanting anyone saying that I said it was okay but they tried it and it went tits up.
There are a lot of people on here who think they know what they`re talking about, but read from a book.
There are also a lot of people who DO KNOW.
People like myself, Glenn and Ade to name only a few offer advice to try and help people starting out.
We have done our homework and are still searching for more answers to different problems, and we have enjoyed some success from our hard work.
Most can`t be bothered to read what we`ve already posted and jump in and ask for the answers instead of reading and learning for themselves.
Personally I appreciate what you asked and your reasons for asking.
But, hopefully you`ll understand from what i`ve just said my reasons for declining to answer your question.
What I will say is that experimenting with taking frogs out of their viv and putting them into another viv to see how they get on together is a bad idea as your guaranteed to stress them out.

Mike


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

I love the blues, didn't really have an interest in dart frogs ontil I seen wilco92s lol, I may end up setting something up to keep them yet.


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

frogman955 said:


> Hi Glenn how you doing ?
> You raised a smile for me there lol.


I'm just peachy this fine morning, Mike! Glad you got a smile out of that goofy comment. :2thumb:

I agree with everything you've written above.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

My reasons for not sharing details of the frogs I have mixed are similar to Mike's. Added to this though:-

There are so many factors that have meant it worked for me, odds are I WOULD miss some of them even if I wrote a 3 page essay on the viv in question. My omission would be some other guys failure, as yes we get a lot of folks who think that because they've read how somebody else did it that this is enough to guarantee success. Just to make it even more fun, they usually come back and blame the person who has succeeded for their failures.

Sharing details adds to the number of newbies who want to do it. It's bad enough even admitting I have one, as this does enough damage really.

Last but not least, just because it worked for me doesn't mean it will work for somebody else. Frogs are all individuals at the end of the day. You need the experience to be able to judge the frogs if nothing else.

All of this said, if you read my posts it's not that hard to figure out what viv it is, or what frogs are in it. Just don't blame me if you get the wrong one. lol

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Mixing is not for me either,ha ha Glenn closet mixers. A bit to complicated for this simple being, I'd just say simply if you have to ask then no way your ready.
regards

Stu


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

Look at this, we're all suddnely diving out of the closet, waiving our mixed vivs in the air singing "I Am What I Am" at the top of our lungs :lol2:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

ronnyjodes said:


> Look at this, we're all suddnely diving out of the closet, waiving our mixed vivs in the air singing "I Am What I Am" at the top of our lungs :lol2:


Nah, not all of us buddy:gasp:,mind i mix a few woodlice here and there(well the bugger's mix them selves), so guilty as charged:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I just want to make something really clear though here.

I did NOT mix because I wanted some kind of dart frog 'community tank' in the same sense as an aquarium. I had other reasons for doing it. 

If all you want is a community tanks, fish are probably a better idea. Or if you just want different colours, well there are actually frogs where a single morph produces many different colours, my o. pumilio punta clara for example I have one orange one with blue legs, one maroon one with blue legs and 1 dark blue/black one...

Ade


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

Duly noted - Just the one species for me then! But which one to choose!?

I'm more than happy to keep a small group of a single species, perhaps 2, possibly three. I can always set up another viv later down the line for another species.

My aquarium is 60 x 30 x 44 cm so probably only really suitable for 2. I'm going to build up the back and sides with expanding foam but try to keep the depth relatively close as to not impose on the ground space too much - I'm hoping to put in a raised floor with a small shallow pool area at centre front, filled with small pebbles / gravel.

I'm hoping to get away with not drilling the tank floor, so drainage will probably be taken care of by syphoning or maybe a turkey baster.

Thanks for the info so far, very much appreciated - I'm sure I'll have a load more questions just rolling off once I get started


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

He did it he really had to say it :bash:
The infamous turkey baster has been mentioned again.


Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Se7enS1ns said:


> Duly noted - Just the one species for me then! But which one to choose!?
> 
> I'm more than happy to keep a small group of a single species, perhaps 2, possibly three. I can always set up another viv later down the line for another species.
> 
> ...


Choose the species...try and build for them: victory:

He can't be a dartkeeper without one Mike,tis the law:whistling2::notworthy:



Stu


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## RedSandman (Sep 28, 2012)

frogman955 said:


> He did it he really had to say it :bash:
> The infamous turkey baster has been mentioned again.
> 
> 
> Mike


Talking of Turkey Basters, I brought one from Amazon to suck the FF from the bottom of the waterfall. Works a treat :2thumb:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Oh i`m having a bad day, it`s being taken over by turkey basters :crazy:


Mike


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

I was at Dartfrog today and very nearly bought another turkey baster but used my will power and resisted. I also came close to purchasing a pair of pumilio 'Bastimentos Cemetary Morph', may be next month.


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

I fear I may have stumbled head first into some sort of turkey baster related in-joke...


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

Se7enS1ns said:


> I fear I may have stumbled head first into some sort of turkey baster related in-joke...


Once you start posting your own turkey baster references you know you're finally a fully fledged member of this corner of the forum :lol2:

They had luminous green ones in Morrison's. Tempting............


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Turkey basters are, oddly, an important tool for dart keepers with a silly number of uses. However not long ago we had rather a long running joke about them, and cheese...

Insight into the members of the phib section...

lol

Ade


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

Wolfenrook said:


> Turkey basters are, oddly, an important tool for dart keepers with a silly number of uses. However not long ago we had rather a long running joke about them, and cheese...
> 
> Insight into the members of the phib section...
> 
> ...


I'd say we're an odd bunch but there are keepers of other types of animal who are obsessed with boiling leaves...........


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## Muggs (Feb 9, 2011)

Se7enS1ns said:


> I fear I may have stumbled head first into some sort of turkey baster related in-joke...


They are not so much a tool, they're more of a membership badge :2thumb:


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## Zerox Z21 (Oct 10, 2012)

frogman955 said:


> Hi Glenn how you doing ?
> You raised a smile for me there lol.
> 
> Zerox
> ...


That's fine, just curious. Even if you answered me, other people could read it. Short of a PM anyway.

So you say taking them out to experiment is unfair on them. I thought that, but the only other option was simply sticking them straight into the final viv together. If it doesn't work, then what do you do? I thought experiment was maybe the 'lesser of two evils'.


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Zerox Z21 said:


> That's fine, just curious. Even if you answered me, other people could read it. Short of a PM anyway.
> 
> So you say taking them out to experiment is unfair on them. I thought that, but the only other option was simply sticking them straight into the final viv together. If it doesn't work, then what do you do? I thought experiment was maybe the 'lesser of two evils'.


That's exactly why it should only be done by experienced keepers who know the species they intend to house together very well.


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

fatlad69 said:


> That's exactly why it should only be done by experienced keepers who know the species they intend to house together very well.


Seconded. You need to know the species inside out and back to front. You have to recognise sign of stress and know how your animals are going to behave. If you can't do that or have to ask what should happen in certain situations then you probably shouldn't be mixing.


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## Zerox Z21 (Oct 10, 2012)

fatlad69 said:


> That's exactly why it should only be done by experienced keepers who know the species they intend to house together very well.


I understand that. That's why I ask. Even if you're experienced, assuming what I said is correct, what do you do if you make a wrong assumption? You're stuck with a bunch of homeless frogs unless you've got backup vivs or something.
'swhy I ask. I know experience is important, but that doesn't make you infallible!


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

To be fair to Zerox the original question included that it was to find out through curiosity due to doing a zoology course.
I have no issues with the question, but I reserve the right to not say what i`ve done other than confirm there is no chance of every getting hybrids.
I do have spare vivs in the event that there ever was a problem, but to date they are living as happy as Larry together.
To answer your other question Zerox, i`m not interested in doing experiments as it`s not what I got my frogs for.
I experiment with about everything else to make the frogs lives easier or mine for looking after them.
But from the outset it has always for me been about one frog type to one viv and apart from this one case thats how it will remain.

Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

ronnyjodes said:


> I'd say we're an odd bunch but there are keepers of other types of animal who are obsessed with boiling leaves...........


Jon they are called tea drinkers mate,quintisentially english and bonkers,oh and dartkeepers, fall into said boilers category. Mind we just like boiling stuff,we even make teas for our tadpoles:mf_dribble: still bonkers though.

ps please don't buy dayglow green turkey basters,they are crap for cutting cheese and also get lost in those bloody glass box rainforests jungle viv things folks keep their frogs in.
Did someone mentioning mixing or was that a bad dream,if they did have a search of dendroboard,loads of excellent info there...search function is top right:2thumb:

regards
Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Dendroboard is great, if you like been either ignored or having your head ripped of be elitists. lol

Mixing per se is not the problem, irresponsible mixing is.

As to mistakes, the 2 species I keep together are well known to work well together, the chance of failure was very very low.

Like Mike though, it's the only viv I have mixed, and will remain so. Given the only frog I will be adding to my collection now will be some caucheros from Mike. 

Ade


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## Zerox Z21 (Oct 10, 2012)

frogman955 said:


> To be fair to Zerox the original question included that it was to find out through curiosity due to doing a zoology course.
> I have no issues with the question, but I reserve the right to not say what i`ve done other than confirm there is no chance of every getting hybrids.
> I do have spare vivs in the event that there ever was a problem, but to date they are living as happy as Larry together.
> To answer your other question Zerox, i`m not interested in doing experiments as it`s not what I got my frogs for.
> ...


I suppose hybrids are unwanted to avoid confusion about parentage within what captive animals there are? Because I could imagine they might be interesting otherwise.
The other question was a bit of secondary curiosity, but was just mainly addressing what you do if you get it wrong. I'm having experience quoted at me alot, but that doesn't guarantee success. You say spare vivs, are they set up and running empty of frogs, but otherwise suitable? Or just empty glass tanks?
I didn't mean experiment randomly. I just thought it *might* be better than buying new frogs for a new viv which may end up resulting in disaster, whereas if they aren't compatible you could just return them home to their normal viv. I'm no expert, which is why I suggested it; I figured you experienced people would explain why it's a good/bad idea. I obviously don't keep darts right now  I never meant to suggest anyone just experiment with their frogs _because they can_.
If it's always been about one frog one viv for you, what inspired your single mixed viv? Unless that is too revealing about your species.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Yes I have spare vivs partially set up ready to use.
Don`t worry I took your mention of experiments as you meant it.
I`m just not saying what i`ve done or why simply because it might encourage others to try it, and as I said earlier if they got it wrong they won`t blame themselves, only the one who said it works.
Nothing beats experience and knowing your frogs.
Watch them and learn about them and know what makes them tick.
Thats my last post on this subject

Mike


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

With experience, you learn what frogs will work together, and you learn how to design their vivs to give them everything they need for BOTH types.

Does it guarantee success? Well, the experienced keepers I know of who have mixed vivs HAVE succeeded, I don't know of any that have had a failure.

The end.

As to hybridisation, I'm not even going there. Use google, or the site search, tons already said as to why dart keepers don't like hybrids or hybridising. Or if you want it putting into one short sentence, you don't gild the lily.

Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Most of us have the odd empty viv set up just in case we need to move a frog for what ever reason as well as rearing tanks for young frogs. Keeping darts is very addictive so a spare empty viv at the ready means there is always space if a frog comes up for sale that you don't want to miss out on. 

Please don't take my previous comments personally and don't let them put you off from diving into the world of dart frog keeping.

Adam:2thumb:


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## Zerox Z21 (Oct 10, 2012)

frogman955 said:


> Yes I have spare vivs partially set up ready to use.
> Don`t worry I took your mention of experiments as you meant it.
> I`m just not saying what i`ve done or why simply because it might encourage others to try it, and as I said earlier if they got it wrong they won`t blame themselves, only the one who said it works.
> Nothing beats experience and knowing your frogs.
> ...


Thanks for your responses Mike, they are very informative.
I thought your reasoning for mixing might not be open either, but thought I'd ask anyway. No harm in that.
Experience and knowing your animals will always trump anything anyone can tell you. I should know from my own experience mainly with aquaria. We also did a survey of giraffes recently with the university; watching intently, even for as short a period as half an hour, gives you a great level of familiarity that you otherwise are ignorant of.



Wolfenrook said:


> With experience, you learn what frogs will work together, and you learn how to design their vivs to give them everything they need for BOTH types.
> 
> Does it guarantee success? Well, the experienced keepers I know of who have mixed vivs HAVE succeeded, I don't know of any that have had a failure.
> 
> ...


I did a quick search as you said Ade, and the reasoning is similar to what I assumed: long lived, unlabelled hybrids possibly breeding unchecked (resulting in unknowingly mixed bloodlines until it's too late), as well as that being particularly problematic if your captives are ever required to help bolster numbers of rare species, the wild state of many amphibians being precarious in our current times. Especially the delicate tropical species.
I would be curious to see carefully managed hybrids but it's certainly not necessary with the huge amount of choice of wonderful colourations and patterns. I'd only really want to see how the patterns and colours mix. I doubt I'd do it for this reason though.



fatlad69 said:


> Most of us have the odd empty viv set up just in case we need to move a frog for what ever reason as well as rearing tanks for young frogs. Keeping darts is very addictive so a spare empty viv at the ready means there is always space if a frog comes up for sale that you don't want to miss out on.
> 
> Please don't take my previous comments personally and don't let them put you off from diving into the world of dart frog keeping.
> 
> Adam:2thumb:


I can certainly understand that Adam! Especially if breeding is commonplace. Hadn't occurred to me it might be, but then most vivs I've seen have a minimum of 3 frogs. The odds are there's a male _and_ female in there...
That's alright, always nice to be encouraged =] I won't be in the position to for some time though. Space and money are both lacking. I am a student 

Fred ^^


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> if they did have a search of dendroboard,loads of excellent info there...search function is top right


I can help with that. From a recent thread (War)

Bam! Looks like spam! :censor: :lol2:


mixing/multispecies exhibits.

Scientific reasons for not mixing frogs

Ideology behind NOT mixing morphs?

hot topic

what is the deal with mixing frogs?

Making people care about mixing

So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Can you mix dart frogs? Also how to build a stream though a tank?

Mixing Species

Crossbreeds, update

Hybrid Dart Frogs.. DONT SHOOT!!

Questioin about mixing species

To the people who have no idea what they're talking about

Mixing Frogs

The Mixed Tank Verdict

Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

Mixed Tank / leucomela and thumbnails????

Mixed species

Hybridization Question

keeping different frogs in the same tank


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## RedSandman (Sep 28, 2012)

frogfreak said:


> I can help with that. From a recent thread (War)
> 
> Bam! Looks like spam! :censor: :lol2:
> 
> ...


Well that was some interesting reading. The discussions were certainly getting a bit heated.


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

RedSandman said:


> Well that was some interesting reading. The discussions were certainly getting a bit heated.


You read ALL of that? I can barely make it through a single thread...

"A bit heated" is an understatement. :bash: :lol2:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

A 'heated' thread on Dendroboard? Never! lol I reckon that's why you like coming on here Glenn eh?  The thing with Dendroboard is, if you are considered one of the 'elite' group on there you can post details of a mixed viv all you like, and be congratulated on your lovely viv. I happen to know there's a chap on there planning a mixed biotope viv, in his defense though, he has the experience and is researching frogs that would be found together in the wild anyway, rather than just chucking in frogs he likes the colour of.

Zerox, there are people who HAVE hybridised dart frogs, some deliberately, some through not bothering to research the frogs they then bought. So if you are really that interested you can find photographs of them. The tropical experience has a few 'fake' tinc morphs on there, known hybrids between tinc morphs that dodgy types tried to palm off as new morphs. If you try some of the dutch forums I am sure you will find more, as having read some articles it seems our friends over there are sometimes less cautious, building giant vivs and then chucking the frogs they fancy in. One of the most famous hybrids, that makes a mockery of the statement that Azureas are aggressive to other species, is the Azureas + Leucomelas hybrid. Both been in the tinctorius group (auratus, tinctorius and leucomelas) they are more than able to breed together. That's the thing, research isn't needed, as it's already been done, we already know what the 'hybrids' look like, or can guess from observing other morphs.

Oh just one other thing, bin the idea of captive bred in the hobby frogs EVER bolstering wild populations. That idea is one that people like to use as an excuse for keeping darts, and has already been demonstrated as false. It's doubtful that captive bred darts that have been in the hobby for years could even survive if returned to the wild.

The most honest reason against it is my gilding the lily one. We already have 100s of absolutely stunning frogs to chose from, without trying to 'improve' them. Call it snobbery if you like, but I for one have seen some of the fish hybrids that've been produced, for the most part I prefer the wild types. Otherwise I just can't see the point. It stops been a slice of nature in your house, and just becomes too artificial in effect emotionally.

That said, I do own some gold neon tetra. Lovely little fish, but not exactly something you find in the wild.  lol

Ade


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

Wolfenrook said:


> A 'heated' thread on Dendroboard? Never! lol I reckon that's why you like coming on here Glenn eh?


Spot on there, Ade. I still post there, but can't stand all the negativity. I mostly post for new people in the hobby. I think I snapped one day and started googling dart frog forums and found this one. I like it a lot and am here to stay. I also have Canadart. My home base. lol :2thumb: I like to learn and just talk frog. There are some things that this group is far more accepting of. Wild sweeping, unsterilized vivs, etc. I don't subscribe to the bake, boil, fecal, napalm, flame thrower, carpet bombing approach. :whistling2:

In general, I prefer smaller forums. Much less likely to run into this...:bash: and get more of this...:welcome: lol. Oh, and don't be surprised if a show up at BAKS one day. I'm overdue for a trip to the UK and Ireland. After all, that's where my Grandparents are from.  I think Canuck stands for mixed breed. lol



Wolfenrook said:


> The most honest reason against it is my gilding the lily one. We already have 100s of absolutely stunning frogs to chose from, without trying to 'improve' them.


Like you, I feel the same. What's the point in it with all those wonderful species/morphs to choose from... 

Cheers,


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## RedSandman (Sep 28, 2012)

> You read ALL of that? I can barely make it through a single thread...


Well, I didn't read all of them but enough to get a flavour :bash:


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## Zerox Z21 (Oct 10, 2012)

Wolfenrook said:


> The most honest reason against it is my gilding the lily one. We already have 100s of absolutely stunning frogs to chose from, without trying to 'improve' them. Call it snobbery if you like, but I for one have seen some of the fish hybrids that've been produced, for the most part I prefer the wild types. Otherwise I just can't see the point. It stops been a slice of nature in your house, and just becomes too artificial in effect emotionally.
> 
> That said, I do own some gold neon tetra. Lovely little fish, but not exactly something you find in the wild.  lol
> 
> Ade


No I understand that. There's no real need, I just noticed some hybrid hate going on and got curious (especially compared with the avid breeding obsession in some herp circles i.e. pythons. I know it's not quite the same but the mentality is similar). But I agree, I generally prefer wild forms and that's why I like these things, the natural aspect.
On the fish side of things, parrot cichlid anyone? Good example of hybrids gone wrong. Not to hate on anyone who likes them, but...I don't see the appeal. At all. Especially compared to what they were bred from, and seldom the complications of health issues and so on that are also involved. And such problems may well occur with dart frogs too.

Also I see now the point about captive breeding being unlikely. I just googled some reasoning and it came up frequently. Not very logical though now that I think about it.
Generally just...why complicate things. I doubt you'd ever get anything more visually appealing (and that isn't a good reason alone anyway) than what is already on offer.
Just part of the issue is irresponsibility and unlabelled hybrids. But what if all hybrids could be guaranteed to be known, do you still have the same problem? I don't agree with it myself, but equally because of who I am I am reluctant to strangle the freedoms of others, especially if technically they have no negative impact on anyone else (such is my life philosophy!). But then again...it's not like the need to hybridise darts will ever be an important right.

Fred


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

If you think that load of links was bad, this guy was only asking advice because he had one sub adult bigger than the other three and look what happened to him.
housing froglets with subadults questions - Dendroboard


Mike


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

frogman955 said:


> If you think that load of links was bad, this guy was only asking advice because he had one sub adult bigger than the other three and look what happened to him.
> housing froglets with subadults questions - Dendroboard
> 
> 
> Mike


Mike, I think that guys frogs are going to be in trouble, if they aren't already. Man, did he get roasted though...


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## Zerox Z21 (Oct 10, 2012)

frogman955 said:


> If you think that load of links was bad, this guy was only asking advice because he had one sub adult bigger than the other three and look what happened to him.
> housing froglets with subadults questions - Dendroboard
> 
> 
> Mike


Good grief!
Rusty's original comments seem to have been altered slightly, but I saw Monty get alot of stick for being rude. Maybe so, but it's not an entirely unjustified response to the first replies being so rude and unhelpful. I mean, why comment on need for quarantine/testing without answering the actual question? That's just kind of annoying.
And I see the point made about 'experienced' keepers on that board getting okay treatment for mixed vivs where others don't. I saw some defense of Rusty too. At best, Rusty and Monty were just as bad as each other. Defending Rusty is just plain biased. An experienced keeper you may be, that does not justify rudeness to a newbie wanting help.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Continuing my theme of honesty here, personally I think it's up to folks what they do in their vivs. I have a right to object and advise against it, and to argue if they come back with stupid replies etc, but I can't stop them at the end of the day. Some folks though just want yes man answers, and that's where I end up arguing as it's just not my way.

As to the rest, well I've yet to quarantine frogs. The thing is though, 3 times I have added new frogs to old. My Regina were the first time, adding a replacement male to my female after losing the 2 males I first had. Over 2 years later they're still doing well and a chap at the 1st BAKS bought 4 of their offspring from me.  The second time was my San Cristobals, the replacement from the same guy my female was from, Mike has 3 of their offspring, I have 6 more in a rearing viv along with some more recently out of water in the viv with the adults. Lastly are the 4 young leucs I got from Mike, added to the 3 females I already had, I trust Mike and I trust his frogs. 

The others, well I believe in "in viv quarantine" as in I put them in their vivs. Not had a problem yet, and I've been keeping darts for more than 2 years now. Just because somebody doesn't quarantine, have fecals done etc, doesn't mean they don't care and wont succeed. I personally don't agree with quarantine, it's additional stress that if a frog does have a problem is likely to exacerbate it. My frogs go into their new vivs, job done. But then I don't often go buying frogs from random folks either. I mean, let's put it this way, if you buy frogs from Stu, would you expect to need to quarantine them? Nah. lol I think though I would consider quarantine if I was buying frogs from somewhere like HAMM from an unknown quantity, if they were going into the same viv I already had frogs in.

As to sterile vivs, not done it yet. I don't go collecting in woods though, I was raised with the country code. People go on at me about damaging habitats in other countries buying wood etc, uhm and harvesting wood from a local woods doesn't damage a habitat? Sure it does, everything we do does some form of harm. The electricity we use to light them, the wild caught frogs, the decor we use... Not had a problem with nemerteans yet.  Slugs, snails and earth worms are a different story, and I have european woodlice in vivs I never added them too. lmao

Oh and I just bought a LOVELY big peace of Redmoor wood for my aquarium. lol

I like small too Glenn, so long as it's not cliquey. Hence I post on here and on plantedhabitats.info, oh and obviously on b-a-k-s.co.uk. Hope you do manage to come over and visit a meeting one day. Forums can never replace actually meeting people face to face.

Oh yeah, and the other thing we do a lot of in the phibs section is going totally off topic... lol

Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> If you think that load of links was bad, this guy was only asking advice because he had one sub adult bigger than the other three and look what happened to him.
> housing froglets with subadults questions - Dendroboard
> 
> 
> Mike


Well that's it I need to sell my frogs and quit the hobby, I never got any fecal testing done!


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

rkAde we never go off topic that's such a distortion dude,has anyone seen me tu.rk..sorry couldn't help it.

Hmm maybe i shouldn't of linked Db, there is some really great info there,but i'm not really up for fighting over stuff either,nobody gets educated folks get hurt and there is simply no need,apologies.
Maybe folks just get burnt out and frustrated by repeating themselves,but still no excuse for being rude life is too bloody short.
We try to Qt some frogs with others well they are going in viv,and if i have to tare it all down and start over so be it. I don't believe in sterile vivs either ,but as i've learnt by doing i'm taking some precautions,to alievate some problems.I'm aware of some dart health issues, that have occured this year,they might be complete rumours co incidences,but they might not: for the same species of frog to die here in the states and in europe, of the smae symptoms ,speaks of more then this. So i sort of wish we did have some protocols for testing.
When a frog dies here rarely if ever is a pm done,which honestly is a shame. We would all learn so much from this.plus the info would be here amongst us too pass on, hell i don't even know how best to treat a dead frog for best results of PM,but i have an idea where i should send it,must get that sorted:bash:
Regarding fecals well its not all cut and dried do we actually know if we clear evry paracite by say regular worming,that we don't do the frog an injustice they have being surviving in the wild carrying these paracites for eons doing ok thanks,naturally chytrid is another matter entirely.But whom amongst us tests for that or can quote a complete collection loss to it,but it is there and maybe we could be more cautious. Especially as the dart addiction sets in and more of these amazing frogs grace our lives.

We don't tend to tear down vivs here betwixt frogs and take other liberties,so far nearly all of us haven't had any issues,maybe it is just plain simple luck,maybe we could do with more caution and this will come back later and bite us,who knows.

The one thing that stands for me is that there isn't a right way to keep these frogs just the best one develops for oneself. So no fecals here either no really sterile vivs,hmmm no dead frogs other than the odd tiny kid at morphout,frankly i shouldn't rear them all anyway. But like all things related to darts i do want to learn more so maybe testing is part of that? But it would be pretty damn pointless at this present time ripping my head off saying i've done anything wrong ,by not testingi just don't get the dart version of the american civil war.
mad pondance over
I better get back to topic now or even better back to those vivs:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Stu


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

I apologize. I should be more clear in my statement. I think I was sounding a bit haphazard earlier :blush:

I don't do fecal testing. I have been tossing it around for a bit now and may just get a few done, just to see where I'm at. It would take a *lot* to convince me to medicate a frog. I believe that you wipe out the good when trying to kill the bad...

I don't do QT the traditional way. I do isolate newly acquired frogs from the rest of my collection in a complete viv. An unsterilized complete viv. I believe that there are benefits to having bacterias aboard. I'm more then willing to tear it down if need be. My main concern is the stress of the move. A plastic box with paper towel and leaves scares the crap out of me! 

I swab for Ranavirus and Chytrid. I had a scare earlier this year and received some positives for rana. Those frogs are still in isolation and are waiting for another round of testing. False positive can and will happen. Two swabs need to be done a week apart. They're fairly cheap to do and well worth it IMO. I have a large collection and the bigger it gets the more precautions I'm taking. 

I realize it may be not practical for people with a smaller collection, but the more frogs you have the more frogs you have to lose. 

Cheers all,


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## RedSandman (Sep 28, 2012)

> I swab for Ranavirus and Chytrid.


Out of curiosity are these tests available as kits.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Sorry to chip in here out of the blue, but I've been reading along and I suppose I'm surprised that people have found so many reasons not to quarantine. It takes next to no effort, in my experience it never does harm if carried out correctly (I have had breeding in quarantine...) and it goes a long way towards preventing potential disaster. I'm hardly draconian in my bio-security (by dendroboard standards at least!), but new frogs are quarantined, end of. Even if it's only for a few weeks.


frogfreak said:


> I have a large collection and the bigger it gets the more precautions I'm taking.


I think this is what it all boils down to. People can go about their hobby however they like, but there comes a point where, on a personal basis, it is just not worth the risk. I never conducted proper quarantine in the first year or so that I kept darts and knowing what I know now I consider myself VERY lucky only to have had one disaster. They happen, and I think the reason we do not hear of them more often is that people can be so demoralised by the experience of loosing frogs (and money...) that they bow out for good and we never hear the story. I was close myself. 

Unsurprisingly people are often pretty cagey about loosing frogs en masse - especially if they also sell frogs. I have spoken to three people in the last week alone who have lost entire tanks of frogs very recently by adding new additions without quarantine. I passed the point some time ago where the balance of risk favoured laziness. I now have far too much at stake and luck only lasts so long. 

Anyway, I was just a bit surprised. Being a forum frequented by many starting out in this hobby, I understand that the hard-line approach is probably not appropriate. But I don't think that the message should be that quarantine is unnecessary - it should be that it is unnecessary if you are prepared to risk loosing what you have.

Just a few thoughts!

Nick


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

RedSandman said:


> Out of curiosity are these tests available as kits.


They are just swabs. Swab the frog and send them in. This is who I use at the moment. I am looking for another lab to be able to preform these tests. 

Research Associates Laboratory, Inc. at vetdna.com


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

RedSandman said:


> Out of curiosity are these tests available as kits.


No Kelvin, kits are not available. This is work carried out by labs.
i believe although i might be wrong here ,they use something called realtime PCR which identifies at least for RV,the actual ranavirus DNA,it is very quick. One has to swab the frogs and send the sample to a lab such as Veterinary Laboratory, Tests For Companion & Exotic Animals. again swabs are taken for the chyrid fungus,but I'm unsure on the tests. Rv seems to be a real unknown with darts,i don't think it can be treated,plus we don't really know how/if it affects darts. Chytrid can be treated
Fecals are a sample of frog poo,again sent to a lab,they then test for paracitic worms coocidia and possibly other things,hopefully if Nick reads this he'll make corrections to any wrong info i have given and possibly elabourate.

A couple of notes to my other post,i have real issues trying to QT tincs here,they would not always settle in their QT tub.My attempts at Qt revolve around,isolation on a natural substrate complete with plants.hides etc.
everything gets burned when we move then to a viv unless say a coco hide goes with them.I tend to keep them like this for 3 month or so as a layman i figure i'll have problems in this time frame,but it probably should be double that to be sure.
i mentioned we(as the uk hobby!!) move frogs between vivs and plants also, i think this might be abit vague.I keep all plants separate again as best we can,they are now all over the bloody house,but in the summer they live outside,each new viv get's set up from these plants,not cuttings from an inhabited viv,these again go in the wood burner. If i have to swap frogs to a different viv,then somehow i'll sterilise said old viv before it gets new inhabitants,but i haven't done this yet so can't offer much more details other than bleech or F10 might be useful
compared to the yanks my efforts are probably feeble,but they are some form of attempt at not spreading something through all our collection,should it arrive here,as both Glenn and Nick have pointed out the further one goes the greater the risks,
Nick if you do see this please correct any wrong info on the testing side

Stu


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## RedSandman (Sep 28, 2012)

> Chytrid can be treated


Stu, ah I thought this was currently untreatable. I know it is very virulent and causing a lot of damage in the wild.


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

Wow - seems I've opened a can of worms here!

I figured most of you would "co-habit" multiple species to an extent, it seems to be actively encouraged on some websites which go into brief details about mixing "x" species.

Having taken on board the comments on this thread, I'm more than happy to keep a small group of a single species, and set up another viv later down the line - it's a good excuse to buy another tank :whistling2:


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

We all need an excuse to set up another viv!:lol2:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

RedSandman said:


> Stu, ah I thought this was currently untreatable. I know it is very virulent and causing a lot of damage in the wild.


Yes it is causing problems in the wild mate,because some of our frogs are wild caught not just darts its good for us all to aware,But yes it can be treated its an old thread but interesting nonetheless.....Leuc with chytrid - Page 2 - Dendroboard, and possibly other meds here progress is being made i believe.

Once again mate,this is about an awareness not scaremongering,most here would find chytrid at best from a PM...post mortem,but as you can see,it can be treated


Again not my field of expertise I would prefer advice from others here ie a vet!! Or someone whom has actually done this.

Stu


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Se7enS1ns said:


> Wow - seems I've opened a can of worms here!
> 
> I figured most of you would "co-habit" multiple species to an extent, it seems to be actively encouraged on some websites which go into brief details about mixing "x" species.
> 
> Having taken on board the comments on this thread, I'm more than happy to keep a small group of a single species, and set up another viv later down the line - it's a good excuse to buy another tank :whistling2:


Nah,not a can o worms,just something we need to talk on and be aware of.
Bud darts are addictive,you won't need an excuse for another tank:lol2:,you'll see. Some of us have growing collections,but are still on a massive learning curve,testing is not cheep,and is done little here. As above the further one goes the more one wishes one had started out with more awareness of this stuff. 
RV in darts to the best of my knowledge only came to light early this year or late last year,so even really experienced guys in the states hadn't tested.

Absolutely don't let this put you off darts though,they are a joy,but it is really important to have this info out there for new guys,methinks. 
Stu


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> Nah,not a can o worms,just something we need to talk on and be aware of.
> Bud darts are addictive,you won't need an excuse for another tank:lol2:,you'll see. Some of us have growing collections,but are still on a massive learning curve,testing is not cheep,and is done little here. As above the further one goes the more one wishes one had started out with more awareness of this stuff.
> RV in darts to the best of my knowledge only came to light early this year or late last year,so even really experienced guys in the states hadn't tested.
> 
> ...


Absolutely agree! I'm not generally the type to jump into something ill informed, hence why I've been lurking round here for a couple of months before considering myself "ready" to dip my toes. Almost...


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Se7enS1ns said:


> Absolutely agree! I'm not generally the type to jump into something ill informed, hence why I've been lurking round here for a couple of months before considering myself "ready" to dip my toes. Almost...



i'm not saying anyone else should do this,:lol2:it took me/us 18months or so,these buggers called me stu'ey nofrogs for ages:censor:
but it is a big subject the more research one puts in the better armed one is,

your going to worry about: viv humidity ffculturing humidity why the hell haven't my woodlice turned into millions yet why did my brom rot why wont my moss grow,what the bloody hell is a morph,what's my name is my viv humid enough do i really need a misting system what water should i use why has my ecoeath groilla glue background fallen off clay substrates the rise and fall of a springtail culture ,optiwhite glass uvb did i really just buy a hygrometer,which leaves where from,can feeders really sequest large amounts of certain tocopherols that will bugger up my frogs abilityto take up Ca,then you get some frogs and say f:censor: that these are amazing then they'll breed and you'll want to know which teas to use...bla bla bla
LMFAO take your time buddy,you'll have alot of fun this way:2thumb:
See were not all serious all the time just occasionally 

Stu


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> i'm not saying anyone else should do this,:lol2:it took me/us 18months or so,these buggers called me stu'ey nofrogs for ages:censor:
> but it is a big subject the more research one puts in the better armed one is,
> 
> your going to worry about: viv humidity ffculturing humidity why the hell haven't my woodlice turned into millions yet why did my brom rot why wont my moss grow,what the bloody hell is a morph,what's my name is my viv humid enough do i really need a misting system what water should i use why has my ecoeath groilla glue background fallen off clay substrates the rise and fall of a springtail culture ,optiwhite glass uvb did i really just buy a hygrometer,which leaves where from,can feeders really sequest large amounts of certain tocopherols that will bugger up my frogs abilityto take up Ca,then you get some frogs and say f:censor: that these are amazing then they'll breed and you'll want to know which teas to use...bla bla bla
> ...


And one serious hint; Listen to whatever Stu has to say! He likes to denigrate himself, but not only is there madness in his method, he really knows his stuff!


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> As above the further one goes the more one wishes one had started out with more awareness of this stuff.


You can say that again! Going backwards costs you dearly...


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> No Kelvin, kits are not available. This is work carried out by labs.
> i believe although i might be wrong here ,they use something called realtime PCR which identifies at least for RV,the actual ranavirus DNA,it is very quick. One has to swab the frogs and send the sample to a lab such as Veterinary Laboratory, Tests For Companion & Exotic Animals. again swabs are taken for the chyrid fungus,but I'm unsure on the tests. Rv seems to be a real unknown with darts,i don't think it can be treated,plus we don't really know how/if it affects darts. Chytrid can be treated
> Fecals are a sample of frog poo,again sent to a lab,they then test for paracitic worms coocidia and possibly other things,hopefully if Nick reads this he'll make corrections to any wrong info i have given and possibly elabourate.
> 
> ...


Looks good to me Stu!

This is all fine in theory but there are actually very few places in the UK that carry out ranavirus testing - it is also very expensive and this is something we are currently trying to address as you know. Thanks to contributions by folks like Stu and Glenn we will soon have a good 'snapshot' of the prevelance of these pathogens in the UK dartfrog hobby (and in Glenn's collection - which is about the same size as the UK dartfrog hobby!).

We have our eyes closed at the moment - often willingly. We move frogs and plants around within and between collections without a second thought, limited efforts at quarantine, next to no testing etc. Up to now the issues caused by these practices have been little more than an inconvenience (unless you have a large collection) but there is a growing realisation that we need to be more careful - and sense of responsibility in not passing these nasties on to the next person. Ranavirus may present no symptoms in a large number of animals - chytrid too can be carried without symptoms. I think an awareness of these issues and their potential 'ticking time-bomb' nature should be passed on to beginners.

Cheers,

Nick


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> Your going to worry about: viv humidity ffculturing humidity why the hell haven't my woodlice turned into millions yet why did my brom rot why wont my moss grow,what the bloody hell is a morph,what's my name is my viv humid enough do i really need a misting system what water should i use why has my ecoeath groilla glue background fallen off clay substrates the rise and fall of a springtail culture ,optiwhite glass uvb did i really just buy a hygrometer,which leaves where from,can feeders really sequest large amounts of certain tocopherols that will bugger up my frogs abilityto take up Ca,then you get some frogs and say f:censor: that these are amazing then they'll breed and you'll want to know which teas to use...bla bla bla


As I didn't understand the vast majority of this list, I fear I will frustrate many of you over the next few months with my many questions... whoever can tolerate me the longest will be rewarded with a biscuit : victory:

Ok my first potentially dumb question coming up: A couple of website I've read suggested housing juveniles in basic RUBs temporarily and moving up to a viv once "grown on" a little. Is this wise? Should I purchase a dart around now and house in a RUB whilst I'm setting up a viv?

PS: By "now" I mean once I've decided on a species, decided on a temporary substrate, and worked out how to "grow food"...


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> And one serious hint; Listen to whatever Stu has to say! He likes to denigrate himself, but not only is there madness in his method, he really knows his stuff!


Ha lovely words Ron,what does the D word mean:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:

Seriously mate,when someone like Kelvin asks about say treating for chytrid,i want to be able to give hin a Stu friendly photoheavy version step by step of how one can actually treat it,not some link.Detail on all levels where to get the treatment how to do the swabing what dilutions of treatment,ya know the whole shebang in simple laymens terms. no fear or scaremongering just real world hard core simple info,that will get one past the problem.That's why i go on so much about what i don't know. I have some grasp on these things,but i would like more DETAILS for all of us. As i aquire then they'll be bunged on that bloody mad thread where no one can find em:mf_dribble::lol2: At the same time all this has to be grounded in reality and the bloody joy of keeping these amphibians passed on. Open conversations like we so often have here without hurling rocks at each other like the yanks do, are the way forward methinks.But, i also crave the boffins with their take,info i can't give
because i don't know,I'll never have a problem saying i don't know mate.

Frog diseases are tricky it is damn difficult to read symptoms,we have little access to good vets,plus in reality we have FEW problems.But there are some issues out there!! Previous experience with the birds shows me how much i don't know,i could lay a damn good bet that a bird had mycoplasma,ecoli cocci worms mareks gapes,bla bla by hands on experiance and the abiltity to id diseases by symptoms such as smell colour of droppings etc backed up by seriously good vets. Well some were about as useful as a poke in the eye with a sharp stick,that's part of our problem here aswell.
Dead simple things like not buying used vivs or swapping frogs from viv to viv can go some way to preventing problems within a collection.Ron they are so obvious to me that until Glenn pointed it out to me it just didn't occur to me how often we do this in the british hobby.Just recently i saw a cracking viv someone on here posted about,great build,but no one mentioned it should really get a damn good clean out before he puts new frogs in,if i remember correctly he had some frogs actually die in there. Again i haven't done this how does one clean out a viv,kill all potential pathogens and still keep the new frogs safe? Bleech and or F10 would be probable allies here,and again,i 
haven't the experience to be sure i could recommend an answer where the chemicals would not clobber the new arrivals...but we should know this stuff,its basic stockmanship. This is not being judgemental of anyone it just isn't my style I'm banging on abit here because i'm concerned we are missing some very basic elements as we start out..me included. I still don't believe in sterile vivs i will still use my beloved wild grub, but i do think we need to be more aware of potential with in our frogs to carry nasties and also to be damn careful of what we do with our waste water ect

Oh to lighten the tone abit:bash: here's something for the new guys Dart Frogs for Sale | Understory Enterprises 

best

Stu


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Se7enS1ns said:


> As I didn't understand the vast majority of this list, I fear I will frustrate many of you over the next few months with my many questions... whoever can tolerate me the longest will be rewarded with a biscuit : victory:
> 
> Ok my first potentially dumb question coming up: A couple of website I've read suggested housing juveniles in basic RUBs temporarily and moving up to a viv once "grown on" a little. Is this wise? Should I purchase a dart around now and house in a RUB whilst I'm setting up a viv?
> 
> PS: By "now" I mean once I've decided on a species, decided on a temporary substrate, and worked out how to "grow food"...


ha but you'll remember your name so that's the first one sorted
read this da dartroom its not all your questions answered its at least, decidedly mad!1 you can get me a jaffa cake.

Nah do more homework get young darts around the 4month old mark upwards qt them in a rub dependent on species or if you want put them directly in viv if you are prepared to tare it down if something goes wrong. No rules we all do things slightly differently,grab enough info so you can choose what you think is the right way for you

Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Ok, so this may contradict what some folks have said here... I am going to say it anyway.

If you know that the person you are getting your frogs from bred them theirselves, and is trustworthy, and they are going into a viv not already housing frogs, there is absolutely no reason to quarantine them.

You don't already have a huge collection that I am aware of, so there they are in effect quarantined anyway, but in the viv they will hopefully spend the rest of their lives in.

If you one day come to need to quarantine, I personally would advocate setting up a viv for them properly and just keeping it in a different room. Then just make sure not to move equipment between it and your existing vivs, and to wash your hands/use hand sanitiser after putting your hands in there. Heck, if you are thorough with your not moving equipment between (not even using the same cup to feed the flies to them) and good hand hygiene you can probably even keep it in the same room. If not in the same room, once you've had it running for say 3 months you can then just move it into the same room as your collection.

For me 'tearing down' a viv is no biggy. It's not like you destroy the actual glass viv, and decor, plants and substrate are easily replaced. You could probably even just oven bake wood and bleach bath things like stones, leca etc.

Don't buy frogs from dodgy people, or folks you know nothing about, and you're pretty unlikely to end up with a disaster. Everybody I know who has had disasters, well they tend to like to buy frogs at places like HAMM and Dutch Frog Day... Unless you are going to spend afortune on lab tests, which can give false positives and false negatives, for new purchases then quarantine is a joke anyway, it only gives time for any disease/parasites to actually become a problem, if they never actually become ill from it you're still putting them in with your collection potentially with pathogens or parasites.

I'm not about to tell people they shouldn't quarantine, any more than I am going to tell people they should. It's a persons choice whether to quarantine, and there are pros and cons for quarantining and for not quarantining.

Way too soon to be buying frogs though, need to do some reading, practice culturing and get your viv set up and running smoothly first. As in get your temps and humidity stable before you even think about buying frogs.

Ade


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

I hadn't given too much thought to quarentine really, as I don't have a pre-established comunity - and for me that is the main reason for q-t'ing new arrivals, to protect the established "residents" from the introduction of anything harmful. Obviously I base that comment on my current experience of snakes and fish, rather than frogs, but I imagine the same principal applies.

I think I will house my chosen species in a rub for a month prior to being placed in the vivarium, this should hopefully provide me with the opportunity to observe for any suspicious behaviour (not eating, etc), and as the environment will be relatively minimalistic, reduces the variables compared to that of a fully decorated viv, say. Regardless of quit how many I finally decide to keep, be it two or three (all single species) I'll buy them individually, minimum of a month apart, and quarentine each in the rub for a month before going into the viv.

That's the plan at least... I'm sure it'll all change. Need to work out how to grow fruit flies first! :2thumb:


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## FrogNick (Jul 2, 2009)

Your welcome to pop round to have a look at my collection, i have reduced my collection a lot but find it's very useful to talk to someone first hand when your starting out.

Nick


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## Ony (Oct 19, 2012)

Se7enS1ns said:


> I hadn't given too much thought to quarentine really, as I don't have a pre-established comunity - and for me that is the main reason for q-t'ing new arrivals, to protect the established "residents" from the introduction of anything harmful. Obviously I base that comment on my current experience of snakes and fish, rather than frogs, but I imagine the same principal applies.
> 
> I think I will house my chosen species in a rub for a month prior to being placed in the vivarium, this should hopefully provide me with the opportunity to observe for any suspicious behaviour (not eating, etc), and as the environment will be relatively minimalistic, reduces the variables compared to that of a fully decorated viv, say. Regardless of quit how many I finally decide to keep, be it two or three (all single species) I'll buy them individually, minimum of a month apart, and quarentine each in the rub for a month before going into the viv.
> 
> That's the plan at least... I'm sure it'll all change. Need to work out how to grow fruit flies first! :2thumb:



Also basing this off knowledge of fish but if you get them at different times surely that would be asking for territorial issues? Plus from reading around it sounds like 'decor' is actually quite beneficial to the frogs, reducing stress, maintaining humidity, and even improving air quality if you use live plants.

I would also theorize that by getting frogs over say 3 months each frog would have come into contact with more frogs, increasing the likely hood that one of them will pick something up. Even with quarantine its easy to forget to wash your hands or accidentally use the same kit on both tanks or even introduce a frog that is an asymptomatic carrier. OK possibly getting into tinfoil hat territory but it could happen!


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

FrogNick said:


> Your welcome to pop round to have a look at my collection, i have reduced my collection a lot but find it's very useful to talk to someone first hand when your starting out.
> 
> Nick


That's very generous of you, I might very well have to take you up on that!! :notworthy: Which bit of Leeds is your neck of the woods then? I actually hopped the border into Castelford recently... but no one knows where that is, so I still use Leeds as my location.

Trying to get into darts seems like a massive minefield - how on earth people with no knowldege / experience just walk into a petshop and walk out with a frog and setup is beyond me!


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

Ony said:


> I would also theorize that by getting frogs over say 3 months each frog would have come into contact with more frogs, increasing the likely hood that one of them will pick something up. Even with quarantine its easy to forget to wash your hands or accidentally use the same kit on both tanks or even introduce a frog that is an asymptomatic carrier. OK possibly getting into tinfoil hat territory but it could happen!


Maybe you're right, it seems like a bit of a rock and a hard place situation really - either I quarantine or I don't, there isn't really a middle ground, and I'm not sure I'd be happy just plonking them in a viv and crossing my fingers.


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## FrogNick (Jul 2, 2009)

Se7enS1ns said:


> That's very generous of you, I might very well have to take you up on that!! :notworthy: Which bit of Leeds is your neck of the woods then? I actually hopped the border into Castelford recently... but no one knows where that is, so I still use Leeds as my location.
> 
> Trying to get into darts seems like a massive minefield - how on earth people with no knowldege / experience just walk into a petshop and walk out with a frog and setup is beyond me!


I'm based in Meanwood 2 miles north from the the city center, when i started out I went to quite a few meets which helped alot. Drop me a PM and we can arrange a date.

nick


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## Zerox Z21 (Oct 10, 2012)

I have to agree with Wolfenrook personally, I figure provided you always buy from someone reputable then you won't get any diseases in the first place. Also, I figure that quarantine (which will almost always be sub-par conditions compared to the final enclosure) is more likely to promote secondary infections resulting from stress or whatever. Rather get them settled in to their proper habitat sooner so they can remain happily settled and in better health as a result.


Se7enS1ns said:


> That's very generous of you, I might very well have to take you up on that!! :notworthy: Which bit of Leeds is your neck of the woods then? I actually hopped the border into Castelford recently... but no one knows where that is, so I still use Leeds as my location.
> 
> Trying to get into darts seems like a massive minefield - how on earth people with no knowldege / experience just walk into a petshop and walk out with a frog and setup is beyond me!


I never understood this in fishkeeping; it's so foolish and quite frankly alot of hard work if you're trying to get everything done quickly because your fish are sitting in bags waiting!


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I would never buy a dart frog from a pet shop, as that is seriously just asking for trouble.

The closest I have ever come to that is buying frogs from Dartfrog. Most of my frogs however were purchased from other dart frog hobbyists. This is where events like BAKS are so useful.

Zerox, I've been keeping fish for 26 years. I lost more fish to stress from quarantine than I did putting new fish in with my existing fish.

Ade


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## Zerox Z21 (Oct 10, 2012)

Wolfenrook said:


> I would never buy a dart frog from a pet shop, as that is seriously just asking for trouble.
> 
> The closest I have ever come to that is buying frogs from Dartfrog. Most of my frogs however were purchased from other dart frog hobbyists. This is where events like BAKS are so useful.
> 
> ...


Never seen a dart frog in a pet shop before myself.
I thought if I ever get round to dart frogs then DartFrog would be a good choice.
Personally I haven't quarantined fish, mainly because until recently I've been living with parents and currently don't have the room or money(and haven't got new fish since anyway!). Also it's generally pretty obvious if something is really wrong with the fish in a store, especially once you're accustomed to knowing what to expect from a good, healthy fish.

Obviously I'd never tell someone not to do any of these things. It's not my place to. Just sharing experience and thoughts.


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

Zerox Z21 said:


> Never seen a dart frog in a pet shop before myself.
> I thought if I ever get round to dart frogs then DartFrog would be a good choice.
> Personally I haven't quarantined fish, mainly because until recently I've been living with parents and currently don't have the room or money(and haven't got new fish since anyway!). Also it's generally pretty obvious if something is really wrong with the fish in a store, especially once you're accustomed to knowing what to expect from a good, healthy fish.
> 
> Obviously I'd never tell someone not to do any of these things. It's not my place to. Just sharing experience and thoughts.


Paws for Thought and Reptilia(?) in Osset both stock a couple of darts. I would probably buy from a breeder (and most likely will), but this is where the term "reputable" comes into play - as a complete newb to the dart scene, who's to know who is reputable?

Regarding quarantining fish - I never used to q/t them, however I had a community tank of 24 various fish that I'd had between 2 years and 8 months. I came home one day with two Plattys, and popped them in my tank in the usual way. 2 days later one had died. Over the course of a week, I lost another 21 to slime disease, despite doing a full water change and disinfect, and treating them with anti-slime/rot solution. I have a quarantine tank now.

Seems I'm damned if I do / damned if I don't.


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## Ony (Oct 19, 2012)

I personally think quarantine for fish is really important (not that I always stick to it if I *really* trust the source). So long as the new arrivals have adequate space, plant trimmings for cover and good water quality they settle just as quickly as they do in a display tank. The only reason I'm on the non-quarantine side for frogs is that I can't see an easy way to keep them as comfy in a secondary viv as they would be in the display viv. That seriously skews my risk vs reward calculation.

Zerox: foodsafe boxes are cheap if you can get them at the supermarket, I hear Asda does a good range. If not I got my 80l one for about £20 from Staples, which IMO is rather pricey for a plastic box. A spare filter can be whatever's available second hand/cheaply assuming you don't have one kicking about. Put the two together and add mature filter media and you have a nice big quarantine tank.

PS. Sorry if this is a massive thread tangent.


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

Ron Magpie said:


> And one serious hint; Listen to whatever Stu has to say! He likes to denigrate himself, but not only is there madness in his method, he really knows his stuff!


Totally agree with this Stu is without a doubt the best new(ish) dartfrog keeper out there, allthough i do think its this missus Shaz that does all the hard work :Na_Na_Na_Na:



FrogNick said:


> Your welcome to pop round to have a look at my collection, i have reduced my collection a lot but find it's very useful to talk to someone first hand when your starting out.
> 
> Nick


Take Nick up on his offer he may not have the large collection he used to but hes got some stunning frogs and has been keeping darts a long time.

As others have said mixing is proberbly not a good idea until you have a bit of experience with them

As for quarantine i vary it sometimes i put frogs straight into the vivs they will be living in if its a group i dont need to add to. Other times i put them in quarantine if theyre imports etc. The one problem with putting frogs straight into a completed viv is if you do get a problem then the whole viv will need stripping and starting again. I never add new frogs to my existing ones though.
You will get all sorts of advice usually all different but eventually you will find a method that works for you and stick with it

Richie


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

If you can't see Ranavirus and you can't see Bd (until it rears it's ugly head) how would it make a difference if the person selling had a stellar reputation? If the person wasn't testing for it they'd have no clue they had it in their collection.

I'm obviously "pro testing" but as mentioned earlier, I had the scare of a lifetime. The nightmare isn't over yet and has cost me a bundle. I wish I had been doing it all along. It wouldn't be anywhere near as painful if it were one tank instead of six, which hold 20+ frogs. 1/6th of my entire collection! So, yeah, I'm gonna preach test, test, test, but respect peoples choices if they choose not too. 

Best,


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

richie.b said:


> Take Nick up on his offer he may not have the large collection he used to but hes got some stunning frogs and has been keeping darts a long time.


Fully intend to - very nice offer, I think I'll come out of it better armed with info too


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

There's obviously a big difference between the OP's situation and someone like Glenn in terms of the necessity of QT and testing, but as we all know, one viv soon turns into many more and you may as well get into good habits early! 

If frogs are going into empty tanks, they are in quarantine by definition - the only consideration is how long you spent setting up the tank and whether or not you are prepared to strip it out and start again if the frogs kick it within a week. Personally I prefer to carry out this initial phase in a small simple viv for just that reason. 

If you take frogs and put them straight into a currently inhabited viv, regardless of whether or not you happen to know and/or trust the breeder, eventually it will bite you. Again though, your perception of this risk depends on what you have to lose.

QT tanks can be fully furnished and functional vivaria. It doesn't need to be (and shouldn't be) an empty white box with a lamp shining permanently on an small confused animal.... Testing is a different subject because rather than protecting you and your collection, we are also talking about protecting those that you pass frogs on to. It can be expensive, but hopefully these costs are in the process of coming down.

Anyway, whether or not it is put forward as instruction or opinion, I find comments like "quarantine is a joke anyway" very surprising on a thread that is suppose to help give a new keeper the best start in the hobby.

Nick


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

DrNick said:


> There's obviously a big difference between the OP's situation and someone like Glenn in terms of the necessity of QT and testing, but as we all know, one viv soon turns into many more and you may as well get into good habits early!
> 
> If frogs are going into empty tanks, they are in quarantine by definition - the only consideration is how long you spent setting up the tank and whether or not you are prepared to strip it out and start again if the frogs kick it within a week. Personally I prefer to carry out this initial phase in a small simple viv for just that reason.
> 
> ...


A well rounded statement I think. But lets not get carried away, it will just be the one viv... honestly... :whistling2:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Se7enS1ns said:


> A well rounded statement I think. But lets not get carried away, i*t will just be the one viv... honestly.*.. :whistling2:


Prepare to be teased unmercifully for this statement in the coming months...


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Se7enS1ns said:


> A well rounded statement I think. But lets not get carried away, it will just be the one viv... honestly... :whistling2:


That's what we all say!:lol2:

The big advantage from buy frogs from a private breeder is the frogs are usually a few months old and any problems will have usually reared there heads by then. Most private breeders are passionate about their frogs and don't breed for commercial gain, it simply funds the hobby. Having said that I would not hesitate to buy frogs from Richie B or Marc at Dartfrog as both are passionate about the hobby and their good reputation is down to the quality of the frogs they sell. 

Adam


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## Ony (Oct 19, 2012)

Hmm would it be worth setting up a 30 liter(ish) box with left over leca, soil, woodlice, springtails etc and a couple of peace lily or other shade loving plant? Not at all like the quarantine tanks Ive been reading about but a sort of halfway house for frogs.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Ony said:


> Hmm would it be worth setting up a 30 liter(ish) box with left over leca, soil, woodlice, springtails etc and a couple of peace lily or other shade loving plant? Not at all like the quarantine tanks Ive been reading about but a sort of halfway house for frogs.


It's a thought, but presents the same problem as using a fully made-up tank- you'd have to strip it down completely between uses. One species, for example, might have a light load of (to it) relatively harmless parasites that could totally overwhelm a different one. First one comes through quarantine apparently fine, the second develops a massive infection and dies. 

On a side note, fish are *always* worth quarantining; most of their diseases spread through water and _fast_!


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ony said:


> Hmm would it be worth setting up a 30 liter(ish) box with left over leca, soil, woodlice, springtails etc and a couple of peace lily or other shade loving plant? Not at all like the quarantine tanks Ive been reading about but a sort of halfway house for frogs.


Ha Richie your bang on,shaz does the graft.


ony Qt tubs/vivs should fullfill all the frogs needs,just simpler,so yeah we grow cheep fast growing plants for this purpose tradescantia is great,yes i seed then with woods and springs. It is exactly that for me a halfway house.
Especially important when adding a frog to an exsiting set up. But I've mentioned this already,some frogs will only be happy with a viv.The closest we have come to loosing a new frog i believe,is because i tried to Qt them I've seen this with tincs twice now.This is not all cut and dry,i've mentioned this before too.
What is important is there is an awareness off these issues in new keepers,without making them feel overwhelmed and scaring them away from darts or any other frogs for that matter.
It is not a mine field,not all our frogs are dieing,but because we don't test much here at all we really have no real idea of the true state our frogs are in.



 This thread is actually worthy of being stickied me thinks for new guys

Stu


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> This thread is actually worthy of being stickied me thinks for new guys
> 
> Stu


I think it'd be kinda fun if we let it run on and see where it goes - I'm a massive advocate of constructive debate, and I think this thread is certainly ticking those boxes so far - not a conflicting word said in haste yet!

Unfortunately I'm now away for a week so I can't start on the viv build just yet. I've got a vague idea in my head of how I'm going to do it, and I'm pretty certain I'm going to go with Leucs (check me, down with the lingo already :Na_Na_Na_Na - so if anyone has any tips on a viv build specifically for this species, this thread could progress pretty nicely...

...in a baptism of fire sense...


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

Se7enS1ns said:


> I think it'd be kinda fun if we let it run on and see where it goes - I'm a massive advocate of constructive debate, and I think this thread is certainly ticking those boxes so far - *not a conflicting word said in haste yet!*


There's not need for it. You can get much more accomplished when civil! There's a lot of knowledgeable people on here and to be able to debate/talk about a subject without it spiraling out of control is refreshing!



Se7enS1ns said:


> Unfortunately I'm now away for a week so I can't start on the viv build just yet. I've got a vague idea in my head of how I'm going to do it, and I'm pretty certain I'm going to go with Leucs (check me, down with the lingo already :Na_Na_Na_Na - so if anyone has any tips on a viv build specifically for this species, this thread could progress pretty nicely...


 :lol2: on the lingo! I like using lots of wood in my vivs. It gives them climbing areas, shaded areas and it supports moss growth well. Other plants too.


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## Ony (Oct 19, 2012)

but then I would have no need to post this:


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

frogfreak said:


> There's not need for it. You can get much more accomplished when civil! There's a lot of knowledgeable people on here and to be able to debate/talk about a subject without it spiraling out of control is refreshing!
> 
> 
> 
> :lol2: on the lingo! I like using lots of wood in my vivs. It gives them climbing areas, shaded areas and it supports moss growth well. Other plants too.


Try telling that to my Snake brethren!

Regarding branches; In my snake vivariums I use fallen hardwood branches which have naturally dried, I just inspect for mould/rot/fungus and ants generally, other than that, they just go straight in the vivs, bark and all. 

Can I do the same for darts? Any issues to look out for?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Didn`t Musty organise a swabbing by London Zoo at one of the frog days in Manchester last year?If my memory is correct they all came back negative for chytrid.There were various breeders,importers and foreign sellers there,so a wide range of keepers.

Whilst its important to quarantine herps in my opinion, I wonder whether the cases of "chytrid" where a frog sits in a water bowl are really the dreaded fungus? They could be a multitude of other problems.I believe its easy to look for this as an answer when there could be a more complex problems.


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## Zerox Z21 (Oct 10, 2012)

Se7enS1ns said:


> Try telling that to my Snake brethren!
> 
> Regarding branches; In my snake vivariums I use fallen hardwood branches which have naturally dried, I just inspect for mould/rot/fungus and ants generally, other than that, they just go straight in the vivs, bark and all.
> 
> Can I do the same for darts? Any issues to look out for?


Not experienced myself, but would suggest trying to avoid areas where wild amphibians are known to live for the sake of preventing disease transmission; at the very least sterilise items from such areas maybe. I dunno.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

colinm said:


> Didn`t Musty organise a swabbing by London Zoo at one of the frog days in Manchester last year?If my memory is correct they all came back negative for chytrid.There were various breeders,importers and foreign sellers there,so a wide range of keepers.


My understanding is that they were not all negative, and several large sellers (Rana, PFI et al.) refused to take part. You're right though, if you had chytrid in your collection you would probably know about it and many 'scares' may be something else entirely. Still doesn't hurt to check though surely? Even if there was a clean sweep in manchester, that was a far from representative sample and it was what, two years ago now? Rv is the big unknown at present.

Nick


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Theres nothing wrong with testing and of course quarentine is the best way to prevent spread of diseases.

The frog day was last year .I can understand why the commercial companies didn`t want their frogs tested ,but as far as I am aware P.F.I. were not there.There are so many Chinese whispers that a friend of a friend bought a frog from here or there and it died of supposed chytrid.

My understanding of chytrid is that some animals can be carriers and not show any symptoms and that those with the fungus levels can fluctuate from time to time.It doesn`t necessarily kill the frog outright.With ranavirus I am not so well informed although I do know it has decimated native frogs.

I just feel that its too easy to blame these when bad management is probably more to blame for deaths.If you look at the lizard and snake sections they will mention crypto and i.b.d. in much the same way.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Ron Magpie said:


> On a side note, fish are *always* worth quarantining; most of their diseases spread through water and _fast_!


Sorry Ron, but that's garbage. Fish only become susceptible to disease when there is a stressing phenomena present, such as poor water quality, keeping the wrong fish together etc. In other words, poor husbandry. Even unhealthy fish will often recover when their conditions are improved, often without recourse to chemicals or other treatments. Too many people though keep fish in undersized/underfiltered/plastic planted monstrosities, often with no concern given to the preferences to water chemistry their different fish have (tank of guppies and cardinal tetra anyone?).

The only time I have had a sick fish in any of my tanks was a platy that had anchor worm when I bought it. I manually removed this and the fish made a full recovery. The other caveat is to properly look at the fish in the tank from which you are buying from, and don't buy obviously sick fish.

If you lose fish, you're keeping them wrong, end of story. Like I said, 26 years of experience, and I even have some 16 year old kuhli loaches. I've only lost fish from 2 things, 1) stress from quarantine and 2) dwarf gourami disease which all the quarantine in the world wont prevent as pretty much every single one imported now has it already.

Ade


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

DrNick said:


> My understanding is that they were not all negative, and several large sellers (Rana, PFI et al.) refused to take part. You're right though, if you had chytrid in your collection you would probably know about it and many 'scares' may be something else entirely. Still doesn't hurt to check though surely? Even if there was a clean sweep in manchester, that was a far from representative sample and it was what, two years ago now? Rv is the big unknown at present.
> 
> Nick


I didn't see any swabbing done at all Nick, and I was there from very early until close on both days. So no idea how true the claim to have had swabs done even was.

I'd also agree with you that a lot of scares are from elsewhere. Personally I suspect a LOT are from vitamin A difficiency in the frogs been sold. It's well documented that this makes them super prone to stress, and you don't get much more stressful than been packed into a small plastic tub and then tipped around by a bunch of people all day (hence BAKS have a strict policy on tub handling) then introduced into a new home, not without exposing them to predators etc I suppose. I myself lost a frog from the 1st UK Frog Day, and it ticked ALL of the boxes for vit A difficiency, having fits and been found rigid with it's legs out behind it within hours of getting it home. It's far too easy to point the finger at unknown pathogens to just admit that sometimes it just comes down to bad husbandry by the breeder, or even sometimes wild caught/farmed frogs been sold as captive bred.

I would say bad diet, along with too much disturbance by new keepers stressing their new frogs, are far larger concerns here in the UK myself. It's gob smacks me how many people are still using seriously old types of supplements, with just 1 or 2 types of flies, often with the supplements been out of date too, when we have to hand well researched and developed supplements and feeding regimes with proven efficacy.

I will happily admit that I may be wrong about quarantine for some species, but there are also species that respond really badly to quarantine. But one thing I am pretty certain about is the above. I also believe that the reason keeping dart frogs is getting easier is largely in part thanks to the breakthroughs in diet supplementation. Naturally alongside the increased sharing of experience and knowledge gained by keepers.

Oh and re my comments about fish, please note that my experience is solely with freshwater fish and invertebrates. NOT marines of any sort. So where marines are concerned I will accept happily that quarantine is VERY important, especially with a lot of marine fish been wild caught still.

Ade


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

colinm said:


> My understanding of chytrid is that some animals can be carriers and not show any symptoms and that those with the fungus levels can fluctuate from time to time.It doesn`t necessarily kill the frog outright.


Absolutely Colin. That is why quarantining, although a great first step, does not in itself halt the spread of that particular disease - the frogs could look fine. It is possible to determine diagnostically if an animal is a carrier or symptomatic using quantitative (real-time) PCR rather than the conventional approach. It is also true though that chytrid in darts probably would have raised it's head as a major problem by now if it was going to (in terms on 'in-hobby' propagation - WC frogs can and do still bring it in). RV, I don't know, it's a little more sinister!

I may be wrong about PFI (I'm sure I recall them being there though)- definitely Rana however. I absolutely understand why they and others wouldn't want to be tested, but it leaves a huge hole in the sample when many people buy from commercial sellers.

Cheers,

Nick


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I didn't see PFI that I recall, but yeah Rana were there both days.

We simply don't allow commercial sellers to sell vertebrate livestock at BAKS meetings. Meetings should be by hobbyists for hobbyists in our book where livestock is concerned.

Ade


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## Ony (Oct 19, 2012)

Wolfenrook said:


> Sorry Ron, but that's garbage. Fish only become susceptible to disease when there is a stressing phenomena present, such as poor water quality, keeping the wrong fish together etc. In other words, poor husbandry. Even unhealthy fish will often recover when their conditions are improved, often without recourse to chemicals or other treatments. Too many people though keep fish in undersized/underfiltered/plastic planted monstrosities, often with no concern given to the preferences to water chemistry their different fish have (tank of guppies and cardinal tetra anyone?).
> 
> The only time I have had a sick fish in any of my tanks was a platy that had anchor worm when I bought it. I manually removed this and the fish made a full recovery. The other caveat is to properly look at the fish in the tank from which you are buying from, and don't buy obviously sick fish.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of what you say but can't understand why you would disregard such a powerful tool as quarantine. What do you think it is about a quarantine tank that stresses fish? 

PS. Plastic plants are a monstrosity and we should not tolerate their existence. There is no excuse to use something that is clearly inferior in both form and function.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Most people running quarantine tanks the tank is underfiltered (they seem to think that massive water changes are ok for their fish.... meh) or has a filter that is completely useless. The tank is usually bare of substrate or decor, as after all these can harbour pathogens etc... You really asking what I reckon is stressful about them? lol If you do properly filter, decorate etc to reduce stress, you defeat the whole object of a quarantine tank, as unless you are using lots of chemical filter media an established filter means it's going to be reused and kept running (along with any pathogens), and that you're going to be binning any substrates or decor used each and every time you get new fish.

Then there is the fact that first you have to acclimatise your fish to the quarantine tank, then again to the tank they are going into finally.. I am sure you wont argue that acclimation is stress free for fish.  Not acclimatising them would be even worst. It's just more steps added to an already highly stressful process.

I tend to subscribe to the KISS protocol. Less is more. You can't really argue with 26 years of success.  Quarantine may work really well for some people, I prefer a different way though.

If this message hasn't come through from me though, let me be clear, each to their own. As the old saying goes, 1 man's meat is another man's poison.

Ade


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

Se7enS1ns said:


> Regarding branches; In my snake vivariums I use fallen hardwood branches which have naturally dried, I just inspect for mould/rot/fungus and ants generally, other than that, they just go straight in the vivs, bark and all.
> 
> Can I do the same for darts? Any issues to look out for?


I couldn't really say. I use Mopani and it all comes from a fish store. Maybe someone else can help with this question. 

Cheers,


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

frogfreak said:


> I couldn't really say. I use Mopani and it all comes from a fish store. Maybe someone else can help with this question.
> 
> Cheers,


I'm like you, I use Redmoor, Sumatra, bogwood and cork branches. Got a peace of nice Mopani in the kitchen, we offered it as a prize at the 1st BAKS meeting but nobody wanted it. Oh well, I'll find a use for it. :lol2:

Ade


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## Ony (Oct 19, 2012)

Wolfenrook said:


> Most people running quarantine tanks the tank is underfiltered (they seem to think that massive water changes are ok for their fish.... meh) or has a filter that is completely useless. The tank is usually bare of substrate or decor, as after all these can harbour pathogens etc... You really asking what I reckon is stressful about them? lol If you do properly filter, decorate etc to reduce stress, you defeat the whole object of a quarantine tank, as unless you are using lots of chemical filter media an established filter means it's going to be reused and kept running (along with any pathogens), and that you're going to be binning any substrates or decor used each and every time you get new fish.
> 
> Then there is the fact that first you have to acclimatise your fish to the quarantine tank, then again to the tank they are going into finally.. I am sure you wont argue that acclimation is stress free for fish.  Not acclimatising them would be even worst. It's just more steps added to an already highly stressful process.
> 
> ...


New fish would be exposed to anything in the existing tank whether quarantined or not, the point is to minimise the chance of introducing disease from new to existing stock. If you accept that then there is no reason to leave the quarantine tank naked or poorly filtered. Obviously nothing should be shared or moved back to the main tank during quarantine. I concede that having to acclimatise twice is a downside but at least the second time should be between very similar parameters.

Ive enjoyed our debate and look forward to plumbing the depths of your experience in future. I'm going to stop derailing this thread now, I need to go squee at my new fish babies :blush:


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

Okie dokie - time to draw a line under the topic of quarantine I think. Some very insightful opinions on both sides of the fence, but I guess in the end I'll just use my own judgement and see what happens at the time.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Se7enS1ns said:


> Try telling that to my Snake brethren!
> 
> Regarding branches; In my snake vivariums I use fallen hardwood branches which have naturally dried, I just inspect for mould/rot/fungus and ants generally, other than that, they just go straight in the vivs, bark and all.
> 
> Can I do the same for darts? Any issues to look out for?


Very similar i guess grab permission,use areas that are free of pesticide/sprays,and also be aware of local phib populations,they could just carry one of the nasties we have been talking about.Your main issue with native untreated wood though would centre around slugs,snails and nemerteans(worth looking those little buggers up). slugs and snails mainly are a pain for munching eggs and plants naturally,but yeah going the whole hog snails at least can be an intermediate stage to parasites.Nem.s predate your micro fauna especially springtails.
My absolute favoured wood,native that is is oak,you know those dead branches sat up in the air singularly well weathered,and beautiful,well to moi anyway.Tree surgeons are always loping these off, so worth asking.

We also use native lonicera,might not last long don't know yet,old mans beard they are my vine substitues.
sterilising down to you bung em in bake em i'v blasted the last lot with a heat gun out of mere curiosity,your choice.I'd prefer not to do anything to wood ,but experience is making me choose other methods

Other hardwords such as ash/ nutwoods etc should be fine but the best is oak,for me
oh an dude leucs are fabulous to start with and fabulous in their own right,mad little sods so much fun,always up to no good great as a group but not too many girls,they can eat each others eggs,ours don't but.... .

Stu

Stu


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## Zerox Z21 (Oct 10, 2012)

Ony said:


> I agree with most of what you say but can't understand why you would disregard such a powerful tool as quarantine. What do you think it is about a quarantine tank that stresses fish?
> 
> PS. Plastic plants are a monstrosity and we should not tolerate their existence. There is no excuse to use something that is clearly inferior in both form and function.


The only reason I can see for plastic plants is if you want plants with a plant eating fish. But I think they look horrible and even if they look good, the fakeness irritates me personally, even if I'm convinced, just knowing ruins it.

I know we're derailing with quarantine, but I'll say one thing in that I think sometimes the natural immune systems (there for a reason!) are sometimes underestimated, hence many animals can heal themselves when given good surroundings. Obviously this doesn't apply to certain incurable diseases like I suppose ranavirus etc. are (rather than most common fish diseases).
Also I've seen salt baths to be highly effective rather than complex medication for fish, I've seen dramatic recoveries. I sincerely doubt this is any good for amphibians though, but I'd be curious to know.

I can recommend mopani wood. I've only used it in aquaria or a dry reptile viv, but it's extremely tough and one piece has even been in both situations! Driftwood can be a bit more fragile and small pieces break off when damp over time. The extra weight is nice too.
This might not really be directly addressing the question though but thought I'd help. If you're ever unsure, then it's not like you're really restricted by store options. Especially since you'll never find mopani lying about!
I'm sure I've seen people post before about doing the bare minimum of cleaning wood and chucking it straight in with darts, even saying it's good because the woodlice and such it may contain contribute to the microfauna that seems desirable for many keepers I've seen!


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Zerox Z21 said:


> Also I've seen salt baths to be highly effective rather than complex medication for fish, I've seen dramatic recoveries. I sincerely doubt this is any good for amphibians though, but I'd be curious to know.


There is an equivalent Ringer's solution for amphibia. You can use this as a base and throw in antifungals/antibacterials like siversulfadiazine if need be, but I've never had to personally.

Nick


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Sorry Ron, but that's garbage. Fish only become susceptible to disease when there is a stressing phenomena present, such as poor water quality, keeping the wrong fish together etc. In other words, poor husbandry. Even unhealthy fish will often recover when their conditions are improved, often without recourse to chemicals or other treatments. Too many people though keep fish in undersized/underfiltered/plastic planted monstrosities, often with no concern given to the preferences to water chemistry their different fish have (tank of guppies and cardinal tetra anyone?).
> 
> The only time I have had a sick fish in any of my tanks was a platy that had anchor worm when I bought it. I manually removed this and the fish made a full recovery. The other caveat is to properly look at the fish in the tank from which you are buying from, and don't buy obviously sick fish.
> 
> ...


I disagree. Fish have never been a 'central' interest for me, but I've kept a few, over the years :whistling2: -along with 'phibs, reptiles, mammals, birds and inverts. *No* other group has brought so many communicable diseases into my collection. But hey, each to their own.


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> My absolute favoured wood,native that is is oak,you know those dead branches sat up in the air singularly well weathered,and beautiful,well to moi anyway.Tree surgeons are always loping these off, so worth asking.
> 
> We also use native lonicera,might not last long don't know yet,old mans beard they are my vine substitues.
> sterilising down to you bung em in bake em i'v blasted the last lot with a heat gun out of mere curiosity,your choice.I'd prefer not to do anything to wood ,but experience is making me choose other methods
> ...


I'm with you on oak! Favourite wood, closely followed by silver birch - makes lovely vivarium décor. I'm not sure if I'll use scrounged stuff yet, or interestingly shaped shop bought items. We'll see how the viv build goes.

I use cork bark quite a lot in my snake vivariums, much prefer letting them make their own hides out of piles of the stuff, to shop bought resin items - although these do have their uses too. I can well imagine I'll use some cork bark in the dart viv - perhaps pressed into expanding foam to create ledges and shelters.

I have zero knowledge of plants however - can barely keep a cactus alive, so this is a particular area that I'll have to do quite a lot of reading up on, but I have plenty of time while I get the other areas of the viv ready.

Yep, definitely Leucs. It's decided : victory:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

The plants most of us dart keepers use are fairly easy to keep bud. The humidity you keep the darts at they get watered plenty.

The important things with dart viv plants are things like lighting, a good substrate, letting them dry out between misting (water in a brom vase is fine, permanently wet brom leaves however will kill it eventually), knowing where to plant particular plants. Much easier than keeping pot plants, even if it doesn't sound it. End of the day, if you tell us plants you like, we can tell you if they are suitable and where to position them. 

Leucs are awesome, love our 7. 

Ade


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

Re lighting:

My viv (aquarium) has a hood fitted with a strip bulb for growing aquatic plant life, from memory I think it's a 2% UVB bulb - would this be sufficient for sustaining plant life for the dart viv??

A suggestion of plants suitable for a Leuc viv would be very much appreciated also!


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Se7enS1ns said:


> Re lighting:
> 
> My viv (aquarium) has a hood fitted with a strip bulb for growing aquatic plant life, from memory I think it's a 2% UVB bulb - would this be sufficient for sustaining plant life for the dart viv??
> 
> A suggestion of plants suitable for a Leuc viv would be very much appreciated also!


Talk to ArcadiaJohn about lighting; he will, of course, reccommend his own company's products, but there is pretty universal agreement that it's justified because they are the best current- trying some out myself, at the mo. 
There are alternatives, but these are the 'up-to-the-minute' products. Plant-wise, have a look on the sites for Dartfrog and Just Airplants.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Se7enS1ns said:


> I'm with you on oak! Favourite wood, closely followed by silver birch - makes lovely vivarium décor. I'm not sure if I'll use scrounged stuff yet, or interestingly shaped shop bought items. We'll see how the viv build goes.
> 
> I use cork bark quite a lot in my snake vivariums, much prefer letting them make their own hides out of piles of the stuff, to shop bought resin items - although these do have their uses too. I can well imagine I'll use some cork bark in the dart viv - perhaps pressed into expanding foam to create ledges and shelters.
> 
> ...


Bro first up:welcome:
second up what's your name?
ok notational real brief pointers for you to dwell on re: plants
get your head totally around the concept of an epiphytic plant
broms hate wet feet need lots of light need need to dry out
fern hate wet feet need way less light
ficus background climbers...coverage...dependent of variety to how much light they require,don't use straight pumilla unless your viv is huge!!
all the others you'll find about,but above will be a damn good start for ya to research on.
Always go for slow growing stuff,folks want an instant fix,spend their life disturbing da froshe snipety snip,take it from me once the slow growing plant get happy damn they will grow well,they will give you more than enough to do.

Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

The reply to if that's enough will depend upon who you ask. lol

Ask me and I'll say heck no. lol I tend to use twin T5HO with reflectors set ups for lighting. For example my leuc viv has 2 x 39 watt ZooMed Ultrasun T5HO tubes, D-D Razer reflectors and an Arcadia UltraSeal controller. Plant growth, and as importantly plant colours, is/are spot on with this.

As we're talking leucs, I'll tell you what I have growing in mine. I've got oakleaf creeping ficus, purple wandering jew, cissus amazonica, hemigraphis penata, various neo broms from Mike (Frogman955, who can probably remember what they are) on the cork branches, a nice round leaved liana plant, watermelon pelonia, pink polka dot plant, red snakeskin plant, Suriname plant (unknown species), spanish moss and last but not least chirita tamiana... (takes a breath). That sounds a lot I know, but apart from the broms every plant in there grew from either cuttings or seedlings that sprouted in other vivs (shock horror! Using plants from another viv! Quick, fetch the stocks... lol), and the viv is 100cm x 48cm x50cm. 

What can I say, I'm a plant head. lol

Ade

PS. Ron, John isn't the only person on here who knows anything about lighting you know... Epsecially when it comes to planted dart frog vivaria.

PPS. A lot of the info you are needing bud can be found in the BAKS Newsletter, Issue 1: http://b-a-k-s.co.uk/index.php/arts/downnews. Free.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> The reply to if that's enough will depend upon who you ask. lol
> 
> Ask me and I'll say heck no. lol I tend to use twin T5HO with reflectors set ups for lighting. For example my leuc viv has 2 x 39 watt ZooMed Ultrasun T5HO tubes, D-D Razer reflectors and an Arcadia UltraSeal controller. Plant growth, and as importantly plant colours, is/are spot on with this.
> 
> ...


Nope, and as I mentioned, there is an inevitable company bias- but he knows a lot, and his products are good.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

So are the products made by other companies. I prefer to give folks the different options, and let them chose.

The Freshwater Pro for example is without doubt an excellent tube for plant growth, however so is the ZooMed UltraSun, they're much of a muchness, apart from the ZooMed is a bit cheaper. Where there really is no substitute for the Arcadia UVB tubes if you want UVB. The thing is, the jury is firmly and strongly out on whether it's needed for darts, with only anecdotal evidence that it even has any benefits over just relying on good dietry supplementation.

John's a good bloke, don't get me wrong, but always sending people to just the 1 person is blinkered at best. Especially when that person as you say has no choice but to be biased.

Regards

Ade


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> Bro first up:welcome:
> second up what's your name?
> ok notational real brief pointers for you to dwell on re: plants
> get your head totally around the concept of an epiphytic plant
> ...


Haha! I think I got the first one.. yep, pretty certain my name is still Dan... today.

Quite a bulk of information to digest! So, logically speaking, plants that "hate wet feet" I guess are better planted higher up the viv walls then?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Just one problem with your advice Stu, that been I personally have yet to find a slow growing plant..... lol

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> So are the products made by other companies. I prefer to give folks the different options, and let them chose.
> 
> The Freshwater Pro for example is without doubt an excellent tube for plant growth, however so is the ZooMed UltraSun, they're much of a muchness, apart from the ZooMed is a bit cheaper. Where there really is no substitute for the Arcadia UVB tubes if you want UVB. The thing is, the jury is firmly and strongly out on whether it's needed for darts, with only anecdotal evidence that it even has any benefits over just relying on good dietry supplementation.
> 
> ...


I have no problem with Ultrasun- that's what I have in my FBT tank. I'm noticing a difference in the plant growth in my golden treefrog tank though- which had Ultrasun before, Arcadia now. Too early to be sure, though.


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

Wow!! Seems I'm pretty good at sparking debate - if I didn't know better I'd say I was a troll :whistling2:

I'll do some reading up on lighting. If possible, I'd like to use a single "jack of all trades" bulb, purely as my current hood is already setup up with fixings / reflector for one bulb, but if needed I'll see about modifying it to accommodate two.

UV/B - This is a topic that comes up infrequently on the snake side too. If I understand correctly, darts do not _require_ UV A/B, but observational anecdotal evidence has shown an arguable benefit of having low levels available... correct??

As above, I know squat all about plants, less about lighting needed for plants, so I've seriously got my homework to do in this area!


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Se7enS1ns said:


> Wow!! Seems I'm pretty good at sparking debate - if I didn't know better I'd say I was a troll :whistling2:
> 
> I'll do some reading up on lighting. If possible, I'd like to use a single "jack of all trades" bulb, purely as my current hood is already setup up with fixings / reflector for one bulb, but if needed I'll see about modifying it to accommodate two.
> 
> ...


Welcome troll! :welcome:

:lol2::lol2::lol2:

Don't worry about it, we have our occasional disagreements or spats, but it usually works out in the end! The jury is still out on UV for darts (or any frogs!) but anecdotal evidence suggests there may be some benefit from low levels. I don't use it in a lot of my frog tanks, but read this: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/421553-uvb-amphibians-theory-musings.html
Lotte worked for Jersey Wildlife Trust and has a lot of theoretical *and *hands-on experience.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Correct, spot on in fact. However nobody has actually done any scientific tests, it's all a case of "I reckon my frogs did better" or in quite a lot of cases "I didn't notice any difference". The thing there been, it seems to be certain species of darts that may possibly do better with UV, like mysties and possibly histrionicus/sylvatica. Having seen pics of the misty habitats though, at least 1 location they are found in is part way up a cliff with no trees..... Nature is a good guide here I'd say. So I would gamble that if a dart comes from an area where there isn't much in the way of tree canopy they may do better with some UV, where ones from areas with heavy tree canopy may not give a hoot either way. lol I'm not actually arguing either side of the debate here, I'm squarely getting splinters in my bottom and awaiting scientific research one way or the other. 

Ron, for clarity, I don't use T8s, I use T5HOs. It's odd, but I have found that the T5HO UltraSuns are a LOT better than the old T8s. Also for clarity I have vivs with Freshwater Pros too. They really are pretty similar tubes. The Freshwater Pros are perhaps very slightly whiter looking, which means that when I put 2 together it hurts my eyes and I find it leaves things looking washed out, hence when I use them the 2nd tube tends to be either a GE 865, Narva Biovital or in a couple of cases a D3 6%.

If your viv is less than 40cm you might get away with a single T5HO, or double T8. Deeper than this though and I really do believe that doubling up is a huge help. OR plant for lower light. Even then, I wouldn't chance a single T8 personally, for one thing they fade really quickly in my experience. Certainly avoid using the compact bulbs one particular manufacturer produces (I don't mean ZooMed or Arcadia. lol) as they go yellow REALLY quickly in my experience.

Seriously though, grab a copy of that newsletter. I wrote quite a long article on lighting in there, and Mike (Frogman955) wrote an article on setting up for and breeding d. leucomelas in there too. 

You're not a troll, we just have different opinions, and enjoy debate. It may shock you, but I have quite a lot of respect for Ron when it comes to 'bread and butter' amphibian species husbandry. 

Ade


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

Se7enS1ns said:


> Wow!! Seems I'm pretty good at sparking debate - *if I didn't know better I'd say I was a troll* :whistling2:


Nah, I'm the resident expert on that and you're off my radar.... for now  lol.

And as for debate we're a pretty close knit group in here and we can spat but phib keeping is very subjective and there's no cut and dry way of doing things so a lot of the time you may read somebodies post thinking "What the hell are they on about!!! That's complete nonesense...... Ooo, wait, I nver thought of doing THAT before" :lol2:


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

Se7enS1ns said:


> Wow!! Seems I'm pretty good at sparking debate - if I didn't know better I'd say I was a troll :whistling2:


lol Nope, it's because you're asking well informed questions! :notworthy:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Correct, spot on in fact. However nobody has actually done any scientific tests, it's all a case of "I reckon my frogs did better" or in quite a lot of cases "I didn't notice any difference". The thing there been, it seems to be certain species of darts that may possibly do better with UV, like mysties and possibly histrionicus/sylvatica. Having seen pics of the misty habitats though, at least 1 location they are found in is part way up a cliff with no trees..... Nature is a good guide here I'd say. So I would gamble that if a dart comes from an area where there isn't much in the way of tree canopy they may do better with some UV, where ones from areas with heavy tree canopy may not give a hoot either way. lol I'm not actually arguing either side of the debate here, I'm squarely getting splinters in my bottom and awaiting scientific research one way or the other.
> 
> Ron, for clarity, I don't use T8s, I use T5HOs. It's odd, but I have found that the T5HO UltraSuns are a LOT better than the old T8s. Also for clarity I have vivs with Freshwater Pros too. They really are pretty similar tubes. The Freshwater Pros are perhaps very slightly whiter looking, which means that when I put 2 together it hurts my eyes and I find it leaves things looking washed out, hence when I use them the 2nd tube tends to be either a GE 865, Narva Biovital or in a couple of cases a D3 6%.
> 
> ...


I'm honoured...


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Oh god wait while I dry my eyes :eek4:.


Mike


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

frogman955 said:


> Oh god wait while I dry my eyes :eek4:.
> 
> 
> Mike


:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

Wolfenrook said:


> Seriously though, grab a copy of that newsletter. I wrote quite a long article on lighting in there, and Mike (Frogman955) wrote an article on setting up for and breeding d. leucomelas in there too.


Hi Ade,
I'm reading through the issue as I type this (well actually, I took a break) - the section on lighting is very informative! I think my options are probably narrowed down to T5HO, either an Arcadia unit or a Zoomed UltaSun one, plus the appropriate controller.

My vivarium is 60x30x45, and currently has an 18" tube and basic reflector, so hopefully I can get something appropriate for that hood.

I'm just read through the section on Leucs now...


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I'm just hoping that peanutbutter and jam species are acceptable, too..


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

Ron Magpie said:


> I'm just hoping that peanutbutter and jam species are acceptable, too..


You've lost me. :blush:

EDIT: The penny just dropped. I'm quick like that.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Se7enS1ns said:


> You've lost me. :blush:


Nothing to worry about.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Sure, as are the pavement pizza species! lol

Somebody loves them all, even the ones that look like an ICI accident. lol

Ade


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Ron Magpie said:


> I'm just hoping that peanutbutter and jam species are acceptable, too..


 
Makes me think of Tricolors.
Just not as palatable though.


Mike


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Se7enS1ns said:


> You've lost me. :blush:
> 
> EDIT: The penny just dropped. I'm quick like that.


'Bread and butter species' could be taken to mean 'very simple to keep species for idiots' or (if you're not over-sensitive) anything that isn't darts. Not being over-sensitive, I'm going for the latter...


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Good, as I meant the latter. If I wanted to insult you, I'd be a lot more obvious than that. lol

It's not really even how I think, as to me darts are my bread and butter species. However I tend to think of you thinking of the 'other' species as bread and butter, and darts as a niche species.

Hope that is clearer. 

Ade


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

What were we saying a page or two back about spats :lol2:

There's almost a publicly conceived list of "bread and butter" species- whites, USAs, fire bellies, pacman frogs etc but each keeper has their own particular take on what that means to them. Ade and Stu are darts, I'm tree frogs and if I wanted to know anything about fire bellies or reeds Ron would be my first port of call as he has been in the past.

I don't think that phrase should have negative connotations and shouldn't be confused with meaning "beginner species". For me there is no "bread and butter species", just different specialities for different keeper, different strokes for different folks. Which is exactly how it should be.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

As I seem to be getting an email now whenever anyone posts to this thread I thought I would chip in again on the lighting issue!

There is certainly more than one way to skin the lighting cat. Leaving UVB aside for the time being, all that lighting achieves for MOST dart frogs is a colour rendition in the tank that you find appealing and the ability to keep plants that you like the look of. I.e., the lighting is for you, not the frogs. 

Dartfrogs in general do not require much above 'gloomy' conditions and there is a lot of anecdotal evidence (and personal experience) that many species, especially the shyer morphs of pumilio, Ranitomeya and Adelphobates, are more active, 'bolder' and reproduce more prolifically in more dimly lit vivaria. The easy way to check if you are over-lighting a viv is to cover half of it. If the frogs rarely leave the shaded section that should tell you something.

Personally I now use 6500k LED strips (I think Stu was one of the first to get onto these?) and light most of my vivs just enough to keep the plants alive - around 700-1000 lux at the base. I swapped to these last year and wouldn't go back. This approach has the added advantage that the plants grow slowly and therefore need less maintenance. The more vibrant broms lose a bit of their colour but that's a price I'm willing to pay.

It seems to be ex-aquarists, particularly reef-keepers!, who take lighting to the extreme and although it almost certainly does no harm to darts, it definitely is not necessary. I've found to fluorescents to be expensive to buy, expensive to run, bulky, in need of frequent replacement and they also kick out a lot of heat.

Just an alternative view (again)!!

Nick


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## Ony (Oct 19, 2012)

How many strips do you use for each tank?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I use plants to provide shade, rather than using less light.  End of the day, my vivs are planted vivs that house dart frogs, they're a balancing act between visual appeal and happy frogs.

There are indeed species that prefer shade, good planting provides this, or in the case of my d. auratus Ancon Hill (a VERY shy species, that seriously prefers shade) parts of the top of my viv are covered with black fablon, creating patches of shade, whilst still having patches are brighter light for plants that prefer more light.

You're spot on though Nick, the light is for us and the plants, not really the frogs. But then I was discussing lighting in relation to plant growth, plant colours and colour rendition anyway.

That said, I am currently awaiting an LED matrix plate I plan to try out over my leuc viv in place of the 2 39watt T5HOs. 21.6 watts for the whole plate, 12 volts and 1920 lumens means it should be nearly as good as the T5HOs for growth and colours, but at a fraction of the running costs.

Regarding temps, I don't heat my dart vivs, so apart from the hottest days of summer the heat production can safely be ignored. They're cooler than T8s or compacts anyway. Oh and many of the 6,500k T5HO tubes I use cost about £4 each.. lol I think this is partly your point though. There's a serious trend in this hobby to recommend the most expensive lighting. That's not my way. Those who read my article in the BAKS newsletter will see I reccommended cheap - middle and expensive. You can get excellent plant growth and colours with £4 GE, Philips or Sylvania 865s, the ZooMed and Arcadia tubes just give you very slightly better colour rendition. The ZooMed UltraSuns cost roughtly the same as a Narva Biovital wit similar CRI, hence I use these where I want to boost CRI. I used Arcadia Freshwater Pro tubes on some of my vivs before I found that the UltraSun T5HOs were practically on a par with them.

I also have one viv lit by a TMC 1000ND tile running on one of their computers for sunrise and sunset simulation, and another viv has a 30 watt Arcadia EcoAqua LED spotlight over it as well as a 24 watt Sylvania 865 T5HO (seriously need to replace the mesh with some Sunbed acrylic on that viv....).

I'm a plant head, so naturally a large part of my focus is upon lighting and plants. I then ensure the viv is planted so that there are plenty of shaded areas for frogs. We both win that way. 

I actually have a photo that illustrates this really well:-










You can see that the top of this viv is VERY brightly lit (doesn't stop the frogs going up there though... lol). It's also heavily planted with broms though, simulating a canopy effect, and making the bottom half quite shaded. That's lit with a 24 watt Arcadia Freshwater Pro and a Narva Biovital, both T5HOs, but the bottom half really is quite dimly lit thanks to the canopy of broms.

So you could say I am in the middle ground Nick.  Yes I go for big lighting, great plant colours etc, but I look for cheaper ways to do this, and still provide shade where it's needed.  I wont argue with using LED strips though, and lower lighting. It's not wrong, it's just different. I said in reply to whether 1 tube would be enough that it depends upon who you ask, and that it was just my opinion from how I personally do things that it wasn't. 

My methods of lighting are among many that work. The only thing I think that really matters though is to give people choices, including of brand and cost. The only reason I didn't include lower cost LEDs in my lighting article was that I haven't tried them yet myself, and I wont write based purely on information from other people. I'm always looking for a better balance between running costs and what I want out of my lighting though. I'm certainly not resistant to trying lower cost LEDs, hence I've ordered that LED matrix.  Had it of come faster, I could have included it in my reply. 

Ade


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## Ony (Oct 19, 2012)

Very nice, have you ever tried spotlights so you can increase the gradient further?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Yeah, got an LED spotlight on my Regina viv. It seriously only lights the area under it, as the Arcadia ones have terrible spread (sorry John, but you know it's true) unless you raise them higher (had you worried. lol) and I can't on that viv. LED spots are perfect for the task, as they're such directed sources of light, meaning it all goes in the direction it's pointed in. Et voila:-










Hugely intense in a small area, dim as all heck to the sides. lol The nasty mesh doesn't help though. lol

I know Mike (frogman955) has used halogen spots in a viv too, the Lucky Reptile Jungle ones that are humidity proof. The problem with them is the heat they generate been halogens.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I have a halogen spot in my golden treefrog tank, which works pretty well to warm up the air during the day, as well as providing a basking spot should they want to use it- although they don't, much. For cooler vivs, I'd probably use an LED


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## Ony (Oct 19, 2012)

TBH if I can go LED without spending too much but still get the light to grow pretty plants it sounds good. Replacing bulbs every 6 months is a proper pain, specially when you forget to do it and then wonder why the plants look sad.

Ive been putting off replacing the bulbs in my main fish tank for months, £60 +postage for ruddy light bulbs :bash:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Ony i`ve got tubes in my Leuc viv that have been running for almost 2 years.
This 6 months to replacement i`m sure was concocted by the makers to keep them in business.
I replace tubes when they stop working, not when it`s supposed be, according to the makers.
I`m gradually changing over to leds and once I find that lamp that i`m really happy with the tubes will all be binned eventually.


Mike


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## Ony (Oct 19, 2012)

frogman955 said:


> Ony i`ve got tubes in my Leuc viv that have been running for almost 2 years.
> This 6 months to replacement i`m sure was concocted by the makers to keep them in business.
> I replace tubes when they stop working, not when it`s supposed be, according to the makers.
> I`m gradually changing over to leds and once I find that lamp that i`m really happy with the tubes will all be binned eventually.
> ...


Good to know, I did notice some nasty light deficiencies after about 9 months in my 100l aquarium which ran on a single T8. Maybe its something about water which exasperates the problem but I'm no good at physics. Wavelengths and whatknot bore me silly. I just want lights that don't cook my livestock and don't need too much attention.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

The usual advice is to replace UV-emitting tubes after six months (except Arcadia ones) and others after a year. To be honest, mine get done when I remember or I notice, whichever comes first. :blush:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Ony said:


> Good to know, I did notice some nasty light deficiencies after about 9 months in my 100l aquarium which ran on a single T8. Maybe its something about water which exasperates the problem but I'm no good at physics. Wavelengths and whatknot bore me silly. I just want lights that don't cook my livestock and don't need too much attention.


Seen that myself with some aquarium brands of tube, personally I reckon they're made to do that deliberately, like how Tritons were designed to fail completely rather than fade.....

The good news is, T5HOs last longer anyway (not counting UV tubes here). Companies still go "replace every blah blah" but most folks don't bother, they just replace them when there plants tell them it's time. :lol2:

I just want to reiterate as well, you do NOT need to use specific hobby brands unless it's for UV. Plants will grow quite happily under generic household brand T5HO 865 tubes that cost about £4 each. This includes in aquariums. I've done it, although I tended to mix in Sylvania Grolux tubes to offset the fairly yellow light from 865s.

Also to mention, you will notice light deteriation faster in an aquarium than a viv. Water blocks a lot of light, especially from the red end of the visible spectrum, so you tend to need much more light to get the same effect. As an example, my old high tech planted aquarium had 4 39 watt T5HOs over it. DrNick thinks us planted tank guys all carry on using the same lighting, seriously, no! My frogs would be blind. :lol2: He's probably right though in that we focus more on the plants. That said, I know a guy who once had a 6xT5HO light fitting on his viv.... Nutter. :lol2:

There's no right or wrong way to light a viv. If your plants grow and your frogs are ok, and your lights aren't cooking them, then it works.

Ade


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## Se7enS1ns (Mar 11, 2012)

Hello - I'm back!

No, I haven't quit already - I've been away to Edinburgh for a few days. Whilst I was there I visited a "butterfly and insect world" - which also had a small reptile / amphibian section, including a few darts. There was a pretty nice enclosure housing around 10 darts - I won't attempt to identify the different species, but there were a few leucs in there amongst them. 

The enclosure gave me a good idea on how I'd like my viv to look, only on a smaller scale (and dare I say a little cleaner). I'm going to start this in the next week or so, but before I can start "landscaping", I need to fit the false bottom. Couple of questions on this bit immediately:

1) Can anyone recommend anywhere to buy an egg crate of about 1" in height?
2) I'm planning to fix the egg crate directly to tank floor, and melting (with a soldering iron) 1/8th inch grooves into each cross section to allow water to flow freely between each criss-cross and toward the open "pond" section at the front - can anyone foresee a problem with this?
3) Should I fill the criss cross section with clay pellets?
4) What type of cloth should I cover the crate in - and how best should I attach it to the egg crate?

The "pond" area will (hopefully) just be a crate-less crescent section at the front, filled with large gravel / small pebbles, with a 3/4" depth of water, which should create little pockets of water for the flogs to splash their feet in, but no real overall depth. Should mean I can drain out excess water periodically with a (stop laughing!) Turkey Baster. Yes, I said it. :blush:

So hit me - what are the pitfalls in my plan so far?

I haven't completely decided on what lighting to use yet, but I reckon an 18" T5HO tube and appropriate starter unit would probably be best... I think...


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Get some egg crate on here FILTER GRID EGG CRATE KOI/FISH TANK/POND/AQUARIUM D | eBay

Mike


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