# More silly ideas from me



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Is it possible to set up a natural planted pond?

Is it possible to set up a natural marine tank?

By natural I mean no filtration other than via plants or whatever is in the tank.

For ponds I'd assume given sufficient size, excessive planting and incredibly low stocking it might work, but winter dormancy periods might be a problem with plant die off etc.

For marines given enough flow, size, live rock, plus very low stocking again, could it be done?

I don't like doing things the usual way.


----------



## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

Aren't most reef tanks essentially natural anyway? Live rock etc?


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Christie_ZXR said:


> Aren't most reef tanks essentially natural anyway? Live rock etc?


Yeah that's what I thought, but do away with the sump and other media.


----------



## Hector1 (Aug 15, 2011)

Yes with Marines it can be done but it will end up looking o natural and by that i mean with algae matches etc like in the wild, what can look not so appealing. You would have to do larger water changes and have a good amount of CUC but yes it can be done.


----------



## sn8ks4life (Jul 27, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Is it possible to set up a natural planted pond?
> 
> Is it possible to set up a natural marine tank?
> 
> ...


you really never want to do things by the half do you lol....


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

sn8ks4life said:


> you really never want to do things by the half do you lol....


I have a lot of time on my hands:whistling2:


----------



## sn8ks4life (Jul 27, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> I have a lot of time on my hands:whistling2:


haha, wish i did...


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I don't! :lol2:

I'm interested in trying to replicate eco systems and hopefully make tanks that can be sustained without the need for pricey gadgets and energy sucking equipment. It can be done with planted FW aquariums, seems like a good idea to try it in other areas.


----------



## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

Well if you succeed, let me know where to sign up! A low tech (<- read "cheap"!!) reef tank sounds pretty good!


----------



## sn8ks4life (Jul 27, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> I don't! :lol2:
> 
> I'm interested in trying to replicate eco systems and hopefully make tanks that can be sustained without the need for pricey gadgets and energy sucking equipment. It can be done with planted FW aquariums, seems like a good idea to try it in other areas.


hehe fair play... yea ide rather a completely natural so to speak eco system to, especially my malawi tank.. will never happen thou... if you work out how to do that PM yea:whistling2: LOL


----------



## Hector1 (Aug 15, 2011)

Well let me know if you make a great success of it as i own Ocean Corals in York and my leccy bill is pretty horrible :lol2:


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Well I certainly won't be trying it with corals!

SOMEONE must have built a low tech marine tank. I just don't know enough about them.

Apart from mangroves are there any marine plants available?


----------



## Scales123 (Aug 23, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Well I certainly won't be trying it with corals!
> 
> SOMEONE must have built a low tech marine tank. I just don't know enough about them.
> 
> Apart from mangroves are there any marine plants available?


Lots!!! Sea grass and most algaes, whoever said marine planted setups are ugly, they are wrong!!:
Marine planted aquarium are compellingly beautiful too

And a little how to:
How to set up a planted marine aquarium | Features | Practical Fishkeeping

Alex


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Scales123 said:


> Lots!!! Sea grass and most algaes, whoever said marine planted setups are ugly, they are wrong!!:
> Marine planted aquarium are compellingly beautiful too
> 
> And a little how to:
> ...


Converted. Project for 2012 sorted. When? Who knows! But I've just about finished my dart tank and riparium.


----------



## spidersteve (Jan 25, 2010)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Yeah that's what I thought, but do away with the sump and other media.


Most reef systems are purely liverock based and therefore natural apart from the electronics making the water circulate. If you start messing with media then that out performs the bacteria on the liverock and the whole things is a waste of time imo. Most people think you need filter media but you dont at all and I dont use it in any of my tanks. If there were only a way to naturally replenish trace elements into a marine system then it could be called a natural reef.


----------



## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

My marine tank had undergravel filter, calcium plus (not sure they still call it that?) at the bottom and corral sand on top separated by a gravel tidy. I had 2 uplifts run by airstone and one by a powerhead. I had tougher rock (not sure if they still call it that?), I wouldnt be surpised if some of the nitrate got converted to nitropgen in all that? 
I grew these types of caulerpa:

http://www.aquaportail.com/aquabdd/photos/caulerpa-prolifera.jpg

http://www.algaebase.org/_mediafiles/algaebase/5B7BE95A076ca29BA6rML2C24065/n55c1jVerZwo.jpg

http://www.reefcorner.com/images/GrapeCaulerpa.jpg

I just used tap water & kent or whoevers salt to make the water up.
My caulerpa grew like crazy, I used to regularly throw it away as it took over the whole tank even though I had some scary looking worm thing with pincers living under the sand that used to grab it by the roots and drag it down to eat.
The plants are able to use the CO2 bound in the water as carbonate/bicarbonate which I ussume will have been immidiately replenished by the CO2 scrubbed from the atmosphere either at the surface or blown through as tiny bubbles from the airstone due to the water being slightly alkali and the water CO2 being acidic.

I kept a sand anemone and a condylactus anemone and they did pretty well and grew quite big. I think anemones are easier to keep than corals as they are easier to feed, just give them a lance fish or some dillies once a week or so, they need plenty of light as I was told they have algae in their blood and need that to do well for them to thrive? I also had a boxer shrimp that lived for many years, I used to think it had died when I saw its shed skin. I had a few disc polyps and stuff that did reasonable well, one or two multiplied by dividing but they didnt do as well as the anemonies. I had quite a few different fish over the years, clown fish, comet grouper, twin spotted clown corris (wrasse) various damsels, fuzzy dwarf lionfish, centropyge angelfish. The thing with marine fish is they can be quite aggressive towards eachother and even if they dont kill eachother they will just harass eachother to death instead so you have to be careful what you put together. Damsels are pretty close to cichlids and can be quite nasty towards eachother, they dont have the space in the tank to get out of eachothers way like they do in the sea.

The salt is pretty expensive for the water change and the actinic light was something stupid like £40+ for a bulb but other than that it was pretty cheap and easy to look after.

This was all a long time ago before internet forums (or internet) so things have probably moved on since i kept them.


----------



## Scales123 (Aug 23, 2011)

Stan193 said:


> My marine tank had undergravel filter, calcium plus (not sure they still call it that?) at the bottom and corral sand on top separated by a gravel tidy. I had 2 uplifts run by airstone and one by a powerhead. I had tougher rock (not sure if they still call it that?), I wouldnt be surpised if some of the nitrate got converted to nitropgen in all that?
> I grew these types of caulerpa:
> 
> http://www.aquaportail.com/aquabdd/photos/caulerpa-prolifera.jpg
> ...


Snazzayyy


----------



## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

spidersteve said:


> Most reef systems are purely liverock based and therefore natural apart from the electronics making the water circulate. If you start messing with media then that out performs the bacteria on the liverock and the whole things is a waste of time imo. Most people think you need filter media but you dont at all and I dont use it in any of my tanks. If there were only a way to naturally replenish trace elements into a marine system then it could be called a natural reef.


As above... all (most) marine aquariums _are_ natural. They don't have media in the sump. Plenty (some) don't have skimmers too.

Having algae in a sump is just as natural as the display tank... surely? Same water volume, just out of sight that's all. 

Also yes.. replenishing elements is the problem.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

AshMashMash said:


> As above... all (most) marine aquariums _are_ natural. They don't have media in the sump. Plenty (some) don't have skimmers too.
> 
> Having algae in a sump is just as natural as the display tank... surely? Same water volume, just out of sight that's all.
> 
> Also yes.. replenishing elements is the problem.


What elements specifically? 

I see no reason then why you can't set up a low cost marine tank. No lights other than natural, a power head for circulation, low cost porous rock and a few kg's of live rock to slowly seed it.

All I need is more space :/


----------



## philo (Jul 7, 2009)

By pond do you mean outdoors ? I have a outdoor pond and I took out the fil ter to make a new pond at the other side of the garden and then next summer the water was crystal clear, the floor of the pond was pond liner covered in a inch thick layer of soil leaves and other sludgy stuff, there are water lilys and lots of other plants as well, in the spring and summer get lots of newts in the pond along with toads and frogs. There is no fish in the pond that I know of, and the water is always crystal clear. It quite shallow (3ft) so in the winter it will freeze up but by that time all the phibs have metamorphosised and there is nothing dying. There are also loads of freshwater insects in there as well, some look like diving beetles and dragonfly larvae and others look like predator! I collect some of the ones that look like predator and keep them to breed them and feed the offspring to my turtles, entirely sel sustained and a joy to have until your drunk uncle falls in stirring all the muk. :devil:


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

philo said:


> By pond do you mean outdoors ? I have a outdoor pond and I took out the fil ter to make a new pond at the other side of the garden and then next summer the water was crystal clear, the floor of the pond was pond liner covered in a inch thick layer of soil leaves and other sludgy stuff, there are water lilys and lots of other plants as well, in the spring and summer get lots of newts in the pond along with toads and frogs. There is no fish in the pond that I know of, and the water is always crystal clear. It quite shallow (3ft) so in the winter it will freeze up but by that time all the phibs have metamorphosised and there is nothing dying. There are also loads of freshwater insects in there as well, some look like diving beetles and dragonfly larvae and others look like predator! I collect some of the ones that look like predator and keep them to breed them and feed the offspring to my turtles, entirely sel sustained and a joy to have until your drunk uncle falls in stirring all the muk. :devil:


I'd describe that as a wildlife pond, still pretty cool but basically the idea is to try and keep a minimal amount of fish without a filter, in the same way you'd keep a "natural planted tank", the plants doing all the filtration.

Some people keep natural swimming pools, clean water to swim in cleaned not by chemicals but by a plentiful supply of plants.


----------



## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> I'd describe that as a wildlife pond, still pretty cool but basically the idea is to try and keep a minimal amount of fish without a filter, in the same way you'd keep a "natural planted tank", the plants doing all the filtration.
> 
> Some people keep natural swimming pools, clean water to swim in cleaned not by chemicals but by a plentiful supply of plants.


i have a friend who keeps a natural pond, with only a solar pump for a little circulation and the pleasant rippling waterfall sound. 

Works quite well, waters always clear, but it is large-ish scale to sustain a minimal amount of fish. he has around a dozen crucian carp in there, and crops the babies to go into his fishing pond every year. 

However, it is heavily planted, and those 12 or so fish have around 10,000L to play in. It takes a fair bit of maintenance to be honest, due to the massive amounts of plants, but it is overall a very nice pond. Mainly you just see lilies more than anything though. But his excess of plants mean i get plants for mine for basically sod all, lol.


----------



## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Morgan Freeman said:


> No lights other than natural,


How on eath would you do that? Outside you mean? A fair few public aquariums (in TROPICAL areas.... haha) do do this, not practical in the UK with 6hr winter days though!


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

AshMashMash said:


> How on eath would you do that? Outside you mean? A fair few public aquariums (in TROPICAL areas.... haha) do do this, not practical in the UK with 6hr winter days though!


6hrs? 6hrs of full sun maybe, not 6hr days.

What do you need sunlight for anyway? Positioned correctly near a window you'll get plenty of light though. I'd much rather utilise the sun than electric lights. 

I'm willing to bet that you can get more than enough PAR from a sunny window. My windowsill plant tanks grow faster than anything else.


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I know of a guy in India who keeps his planted tanks in a conservatory, with mirrors set up to redirect more natural light down into VERY large tanks made out of concrete with glass fronts. He gets STUNNING plant growth, and reds that would leave most of us envious. BUT, they get a fair bit more daylight than us, even in the winter. If however you used native plants, this wouldn't be an issue. Filtration you could take care of with a plenum and seeded lava rock as well as lots of live plants. Your biggest problem would be the lack of water circulation, leading to algae farming dead spots. Solar panel+low voltage water pump and problem solved. Stock it with shrimp and Malaysian trumpet snails, et voila.

NOT a new idea, TFH ran an article on an idea for a jaubert system inspired freshwater reef tank back in 1997.

Ade


----------



## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Morgan Freeman said:


> 6hrs? 6hrs of full sun maybe, not 6hr days.
> 
> What do you need sunlight for anyway? Positioned correctly near a window you'll get plenty of light though. I'd much rather utilise the sun than electric lights.
> 
> I'm willing to bet that you can get more than enough PAR from a sunny window. My windowsill plant tanks grow faster than anything else.


Today has been an 8hr day of sunlight... of which, _if_ the sky was clear, you'd get a few hours in the middle of the day of good light. Why else would all the trees loose their leaves in anywhere but the equator?

I reckon for a _marine_ tank, not do-able. Temperate plants sure, tropical marine high-light-loving organisms, I doubt it. Check out the amount of light on this algae here in my sump....











I've since upgraded it. It enabled the algae to _live_ and nothing more, no growth at all basically. Sunce updating (compact T5s) I get awesome growth out of it.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

AshMashMash said:


> Today has been an 8hr day of sunlight... of which, _if_ the sky was clear, you'd get a few hours in the middle of the day of good light. Why else would all the trees loose their leaves in anywhere but the equator?
> 
> I reckon for a _marine_ tank, not do-able. Temperate plants sure, tropical marine high-light-loving organisms, I doubt it. Check out the amount of light on this algae here in my sump....
> 
> ...



Trees lose their leaves because of frost, not because there's not enough light. Pines and evergreens survive because their leaves can withstand the cold/freezing temperatures. 

But tbf, I wasn't talking about corals or anything. Do the fish NEED high light? You no doubt know more than me, but I find it difficult to believe some fish aren't sourced or originate from deeper water areas where the light doesn't penetrate as much.

Someone get me a PAR reader/meter. STAT.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> I know of a guy in India who keeps his planted tanks in a conservatory, with mirrors set up to redirect more natural light down into VERY large tanks made out of concrete with glass fronts. He gets STUNNING plant growth, and reds that would leave most of us envious. BUT, they get a fair bit more daylight than us, even in the winter. If however you used native plants, this wouldn't be an issue. Filtration you could take care of with a plenum and seeded lava rock as well as lots of live plants. Your biggest problem would be the lack of water circulation, leading to algae farming dead spots. Solar panel+low voltage water pump and problem solved. Stock it with shrimp and Malaysian trumpet snails, et voila.
> 
> NOT a new idea, TFH ran an article on an idea for a jaubert system inspired freshwater reef tank back in 1997.
> 
> Ade


Oh I doubt I'm breaking new ground or anything :lol2: It's just the area that interests me the most when it comes to fishkeeping.

There are non natives that still do well in low light, crypts, java ferns etc etc.


----------



## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

The marine filtration with just rock is doable ,about ten years ago i had a 5foot by 18" by 18 "marine tank pretty well stocked with marine angels and tangs etc which was filtered by a fluidized bed filter .The tank was also well stocked with well matured tufa and good circulation provided by powerheads and limewood diffusers.

One evening the fluidized bed filter blocked and knowing that it would take me an hour at least to sort and the fact that a few cold pints beckoned i left the tank to its own devices ,guess what ,nothing happened ,no dead fish no bacteria die off just crystal clear water and the main tankmate an adult Blueface Angel wanting to fight me for its food .

I didn't clean out the filter for a further three days and in the meantime everything flourished, make of it what you will.


----------



## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

I don't think most of your ideas are whacky its actually nice to see someone actually thinking things over in the fishkeeping hobby as opposed to the zombie like plug and play hobbyist we seem to have in the main nowadays.


----------



## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Morgan Freeman said:


> But tbf, I wasn't talking about corals or anything. Do the fish NEED high light? You no doubt know more than me, but I find it difficult to believe some fish aren't sourced or originate from deeper water areas where the light doesn't penetrate as much.


What?! Morgan I thought you were on about making a "natural" tank without any input, using plants as food and things and natural light... no fish don't need light, but I am saying plants wouldn't survive in the UK if they're from Hawaii?


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Wouldn't marine 'plants' (aka, algae) be a very large part of your filtration in a natural marine tank? Or do you really really like having to do water changes, using more salt? Marine salts cost energy to manufacture, uding too much will quickly offset your energy saving from not having lighting enough to grow macro algaes.

Ade


----------



## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Wolfenrook said:


> Wouldn't marine 'plants' (aka, algae) be a very large part of your filtration in a natural marine tank? Or do you really really like having to do water changes, using more salt? Marine salts cost energy to manufacture, uding too much will quickly offset your energy saving from not having lighting enough to grow macro algaes.
> 
> Ade


Is that a question to me? If so... that's what I am saying. Either water changes and dim lights, or no water changes and strong lights. (Done one water change on my new tank so far in the 2-3 months it's been set up.... <0.2 nitrates and ~0.01 phosphates, with chaeto in sump, hehe )


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

AshMashMash said:


> What?! Morgan I thought you were on about making a "natural" tank without any input, using plants as food and things and natural light... no fish don't need light, but I am saying plants wouldn't survive in the UK if they're from Hawaii?


Well I'm simply looking at tanks that use the least amount of equipment as realistically possible. A natural planted tank still uses heaters, powerheads and sometimes lighting. Self sustaining is what you're thinking of, apologies if I didn't explain it well enough. Self sustaining would be awesome, but only realistic in a FW tank IMO. I'm struggling with mine, my pump chopped up all the daphnia.

In ponds they wouldn't, but there's no major reason why some couldn't in a FW tank. I've grown plants in conditions they supposedly won't grow in.


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Trees lose their leaves because of frost, not because there's not enough light. Pines and evergreens survive because their leaves can withstand the cold/freezing temperatures.
> 
> But tbf, I wasn't talking about corals or anything. Do the fish NEED high light? You no doubt know more than me, but I find it difficult to believe some fish aren't sourced or originate from deeper water areas where the light doesn't penetrate as much.
> 
> Someone get me a PAR reader/meter. STAT.


You need to go back to school my friend, and do a bit more botany. Deciduous trees lose their leaves to conserve energy, they are forced to do this as their is not enough light for effective photosynthesis, making the energy of maintaining leaves inefficient and wasteful. Frosts are at most a TRIGGER, not the reason. They actively cut off the floe of nutrients in the phloem vessels, which is what causes the leaf to fall off.

Many native aquatic plants do similar, dieing back to their roots until there is more light.

Ade


----------



## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

Wolfenrook said:


> Wouldn't marine 'plants' (aka, algae) be a very large part of your filtration in a natural marine tank? Or do you really really like having to do water changes, using more salt? Marine salts cost energy to manufacture, uding too much will quickly offset your energy saving from not having lighting enough to grow macro algaes.
> 
> Ade


Culturing marine algae shouldn't be seen as an excuse to cut down on water changes anyway .


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

AshMashMash said:


> Is that a question to me? If so... that's what I am saying. Either water changes and dim lights, or no water changes and strong lights. (Done one water change on my new tank so far in the 2-3 months it's been set up.... <0.2 nitrates and ~0.01 phosphates, with chaeto in sump, hehe )


It was one of those that's a question and a statement, a sort of correct me if I am wrong. 

Ade


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Graylord said:


> Culturing marine algae shouldn't be seen as an excuse to cut down on water changes anyway .


Never said it would be, merely that you would need EVEN MORE, which is what I said. lol

Ade


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Wouldn't marine 'plants' (aka, algae) be a very large part of your filtration in a natural marine tank? Or do you really really like having to do water changes, using more salt? Marine salts cost energy to manufacture, uding too much will quickly offset your energy saving from not having lighting enough to grow macro algaes.
> 
> Ade


Well yes if I decided to use lights.

If I wanted to go even lower tech, it would have to be live rock filtration only. But like I said, I'm not a marine person, hence the thread. If it's a bad idea, then it's a bad idea.

From what I can gather people are suggesting the organisms that make the live rock "live" need the light even if the fish might not?


----------



## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Well I'm simply looking at tanks that use the least amount of equipment as realistically possible.


Ohh ok. Well yeh, you "can" have marine tanks with few bits and bobs on them... the bits and bobs make life easier. You'll end up doing some water changes though to keep up with elements most likely, depending what you have in their. (Growing algae to rid of nitrates/phos takes up alkalinity added in water changes... even without corals etc etc). 




Wolfenrook said:


> You need to go back to school my friend, and do a bit more botany. Deciduous trees lose their leaves to conserve energy, they are forced to do this as their is not enough light for effective photosynthesis, making the energy of maintaining leaves inefficient and wasteful. Frosts are at most a TRIGGER, not the reason. They actively cut off the floe of nutrients in the phloem vessels, which is what causes the leaf to fall off.
> 
> Many native aquatic plants do similar, dieing back to their roots until there is more light.
> 
> Ade


That's what I thought :blush:


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> *You need to go back to school my friend, and do a bit more botany.* Deciduous trees lose their leaves to conserve energy, they are forced to do this as their is not enough light for effective photosynthesis, making the energy of maintaining leaves inefficient and wasteful. Frosts are at most a TRIGGER, not the reason. They actively cut off the floe of nutrients in the phloem vessels, which is what causes the leaf to fall off.
> 
> Many native aquatic plants do similar, dieing back to their roots until there is more light.
> 
> Ade


Come on Ade, you know I'm up for debate and knocking back bad ideas, even if they're my own, but that was a little rude.


Why do trees lose their leaves?



> There are two main types of trees, evergreens which maintain their foliage throughout all of the year and deciduous trees which shed their leaves every winter. During autumn the leaves of deciduous trees will start to change color and gradually fall off onto the ground below.
> 
> This process of this leaf loss is done to conserve the trees energy and prevent damage over the upcoming winter. Because of the large surface area of the trees leaves the cold and dry winds over the winter months would strip all the moisture from the tree. Therefore by losing its leaves the tree can conserve all its moisture in the trunk and branches. The lack of leaves also means that the tree needs less energy to stay alive and healthy.
> 
> As the days get shorter and the nights start to get longer, trees will make arrangements to lose their leaves by releasing a chemical which ultimately causes the leaf to die and fall off its branch. When the leaves fall onto the ground below it causes a layer of protective mulch that not only insulates its roots but also gives it nutrients to feed off.



Deciduous - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Since deciduous plants lose their leaves to conserve water or to better survive winter weather conditions





> Temperate deciduous forest biomes are plant communities distributed in North and South America, Asia and Europe. They have formed under climatic conditions which have great seasonable temperature variability with growth occurring during warm summers and leaf drop in autumn and dormancy during cold winters


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

AshMashMash said:


> Ohh ok. Well yeh, you "can" have marine tanks with few bits and bobs on them... the bits and bobs make life easier. You'll end up doing some water changes though to keep up with elements most likely, depending what you have in their. (Growing algae to rid of nitrates/phos takes up alkalinity added in water changes... even without corals etc etc).



Thanks. This is what I'm trying to find out. Just how low tech you can go.

The bits and bobs make life easier, but cost money and use energy. I'd rather pre plan to avoid this. With marine tanks it looks as if you'd need lights for algae/plants (nitrate removal) or making regular WC. Realistically there's no minimal WC method without lighting, right?


----------



## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Realistically there's no minimal WC method without lighting, right?


Basically this is how I'd sum it up yeh! Haha. 

However, you could have a 4-6" DSB, with live rock, in pitch blackness, and get very low nitrates (not so sure about phosphates though), as it'll work that way instead... 

So a low-light, DSB / live rock set up would work I guess yeh  

Ron Shimek's Website...Deep Sand Beds


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

AshMashMash said:


> Basically this is how I'd sum it up yeh! Haha.
> 
> However, you could have a 4-6" DSB, with live rock, in pitch blackness, and get very low nitrates (not so sure about phosphates though), as it'll work that way instead...
> 
> ...


Ok, thanks. That's all I wanted to know really.

I wonder if you used enough purigen in combination whether it could work. I don't know how effective that stuff is.

It's not just looking for low cost/low energy methods, WC are very difficult with having M.E. One bucket on my Betta tank is really hard work.


----------



## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Morgan Freeman said:


> WC are very difficult with having M.E. One bucket on my Betta tank is really hard work.


Check this out:

HOW IT WORKS

Fill it up with a hose, add dechlorinator/etc/etc, place it on the ground and let it get on with it's stuff : victory:


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

AshMashMash said:


> Check this out:
> 
> HOW IT WORKS
> 
> Fill it up with a hose, add dechlorinator/etc/etc, place it on the ground and let it get on with it's stuff : victory:


Very cool.


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Come on Ade, you know I'm up for debate and knocking back bad ideas, even if they're my own, but that was a little rude.
> 
> 
> Why do trees lose their leaves?
> ...


I don't think it was at all rude Morgan for one second. It was certainly no where near as rude as many of your posts and that is for sure.

Regarding your 'argument' 1) those quotes do not actually state the reason for deciduous trees losing leaves in winter which IS a response to inadequate light, 2) quote wikipedia in a University essay and you will quickly discover just how it is seen, that been anecdotal at best.

Here's a less anecdotal link, been the USDA Forestry Service:-

Why Leaves Change Color

to quote:-

"In early autumn, in response to the shortening days and declining intensity of sunlight, leaves begin the processes leading up to their fall. The veins that carry fluids into and out of the leaf gradually close off as a layer of cells forms at the base of each leaf. These clogged veins trap sugars in the leaf and promote production of anthocyanins. Once this separation layer is complete and the connecting tissues are sealed off, the leaf is ready to fall. "

I will point out that dropping leaves to protect them from freezing is, well, rather a stupid idea given that this kills the leaf most assuredly. I will agree however that there would be no point in deciduous trees keeping leaves in very cold conditions, as they would become damaged (where evergreens have found ways to protect the leaves better), this isn't however the primary reason to drop them.

By all means debate Paul, but please, don't complain about rudeness or post links to wikipedia as evidence.

Ade


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> I don't think it was at all rude Morgan for one second. It was certainly no where near as rude as many of your posts and that is for sure.
> 
> Regarding your 'argument' 1) those quotes do not actually state the reason for deciduous trees losing leaves in winter which IS a response to inadequate light, 2) quote wikipedia in a University essay and you will quickly discover just how it is seen, that been anecdotal at best.
> 
> ...


It was patronising. How I apparently speak to people doesn't take away from this and I'll complain as I see fit. It's quite clear the links were posted as explanations, given this is now an annoying side topic to my OP I see no need to really post much else. Wikileaks are not "anecdotal". FYI Links to the US Forestry service wouldn't be accepted either.

I never said they drop leaves to protect them from freezing. "Trees lose their leaves because of frost". In context of the discussion I was having with Ash, the point was that the light levels can be enough during our winter period (given sufficient temps i.e indoor) and this is not contradicted by your examples of UK deciduous trees. Many plants survive, with leaves intact, throughout the low light levels of the winter, even outdoors. All you had to do was add that light is often a factor in triggering the slowdown of growth, but this I should add, isn't always the case. Tropical plants often drop leaves in dry seasons and not in response to light. We were discussing plants suitable for indoor use.

My Dracaena happily lives on throughout UK winter light.


----------



## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

I thought I recognised that name. Dragon's Blood, the incense traditionally comes from certain Dracaena plants. It's a really rich, sweet sort of smell. It got named dragons blood because of the way it bubbles bright red and looks like blood when you burn it. It's said to be good for warding off evil spirits and goblins and the like.

Just a little bit of totally random useless information for you there! :lol2:


----------



## Scales123 (Aug 23, 2011)

AshMashMash said:


> What?! Morgan I thought you were on about making a "natural" tank without any input, using plants as food and things and natural light... no fish don't need light, but I am saying plants wouldn't survive in the UK if they're from Hawaii?


Some fish DO need light, such as tangs and rabbitfish because they are herbivores so the light helps the algae grow. You could use nocturnal fish, such as cardinals.

Ps. Morg, why don't you use the biorb filtery gravel media. Simply place it on a under gravel filter and use a powerhead to do the magic


----------



## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Scales123 said:


> Some fish DO need light, such as tangs and rabbitfish because they are herbivores so the light helps the algae grow.


They need algae yes, they don't need light... the FISH don't need light, you need to be able to provide them with algae. Obviously yes, tangs wouldn't be a great choice for a dimly lit tank for that reason, but the fish don't need light.


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Well, I am sorry you feel that way about my reply to you Paul. If you dislike blunt posts though, might I respectfully suggest you stop making such rude posts yourself as it does give the implication that you don't mind people speaking bluntly with you in return.

Regarding the topic, we weren't discussing tropical plants, we were discussing british deciduous trees, and whether you like it or not you were wrong about the reason they lose leaves. Wikipedia IS considered an anecdotal source, for the simple reason that ANYBODY can add or edit articles on there. It is most certainly NOT considered a viable source of information by any higher education institution that I am aware of. I could go on there now and edit your links to state that trees lose leaves because of gummy bears.

On the topic of tropical plants, they actually have HIGHER light requirements than most UK natives for the most part. A few can tolerate reduced lighting, however for the purpose of reducing nitrogenous wastes in an aquarium these would be near useless. Less light means that the plants grow slower and use less nutrients. Hence folks advise fast growing easy to grow stem plants when starting new planted tanks, rather than Java Fern. As to your dracaena, do you actually keep this in an unlit convservatory, or in a room with a light bulb in it? I think my point is made there, wlthough I would point out that if you gave it more light of a higher quality it's growth would be considerably faster, I know this from experience with the dracaena in my White's tree frog viv that has been growing a LOT faster since it went in there from when it was sat in my living room window.

Now that's as much help and advice as I am willing to give you, as you pretty clearly will ignore any advice that is contrary to your own firm and fixed beliefs.

Regards


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Well, I am sorry you feel that way about my reply to you Paul. If you dislike blunt posts though, might I respectfully suggest you stop making such rude posts yourself as it does give the implication that you don't mind people speaking bluntly with you in return


Nope. Blunt I'm fine with and I've even defended your blunt posts before. Your post was needlessly patronising.



> Regarding the topic, we weren't discussing tropical plants, we were discussing british deciduous trees, and whether you like it or not you were wrong about the reason they lose leaves


We were. Ash's justification for why I couldn't grow plants indoors was that there wasn't enough light, using leaf falling as an explanation. The shorter hours are why UK deciduous trees do not grow, not WHY they drop their leaves. 

You stated:



> Frosts are at most a TRIGGER, not the reason


This makes no sense, as shorter hours occur way before any frost begins to set in. Therefor the shorter hours must be the catalyst for leave dropping but not the reason WHY they do it. It's in preparation for the coming frost/bad weather which you readily admit would be useless having leaves if they were just going to be damaged and frozen anyway. This is why evergreens can survive, because they are frost hardy, not lower light hardy.





> Wikipedia IS considered an anecdotal source, for the simple reason that ANYBODY can add or edit articles on there.


Yes, and anybody can follow the primary links at the bottom to make sure it's valid. 



> It is most certainly NOT considered a viable source of information by any higher education institution that I am aware of


Yes, and neither was my first source (the non wiki link you seem to have overlooked) and as I pointed out, neither was yours. Universities require primary sources.



> I could go on there now and edit your links to state that trees lose leaves because of gummy bears.


And provide no primary sources to back it up. Still, wiki wasn't the only link I provided.




> On the topic of tropical plants, they actually have HIGHER light requirements than most UK natives for the most part.


For the most part, yes. But then we have all the other parts I'd use and have been using, such as the tropical plants still growing in UK winter light on my windowsill.



> A few can tolerate reduced lighting, however for the purpose of reducing nitrogenous wastes in an aquarium these would be near useless Less light means that the plants grow slower and use less nutrients.


Not in the right quantity, low light stem plants will grow in UK winter light at a fast enough rate. As per my windowsill. This btw is an anecdote.



> As to your dracaena, do you actually keep this in an unlit convservatory, or in a room with a light bulb in it?


Like I said, natural light. A small 40w bulb about 2 metres away under a shade.




> I think my point is made there, wlthough I would point out that if you gave it more light of a higher quality it's growth would be considerably faster, I know this from experience with the dracaena in my White's tree frog viv that has been growing a LOT faster since it went in there from when it was sat in my living room window.


Yes, I'm not denying this.



> Now that's as much help and advice as I am willing to give you, as you pretty clearly will ignore any advice that is contrary to your own firm and fixed beliefs.


Which are what exactly? Given I've had ideas relating to marine tanks and admitted they won't work?


----------



## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Is it possible to set up a natural planted pond?
> 
> Is it possible to set up a natural marine tank?
> 
> ...


Ponds = yes.

Reef = No. You need water movement or things die. You need plenty of lighting and only an idiot would not consider some kind of protein skimmer.


----------

