# Small pond



## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Hi
I have a small pond and it has a ghost koi, 2 orf and 3 goldfish and 1 shubunkin( 1 died last week). I cleaned out the box and filter this weekend and removed the algae that had grown . All looked good..this mornign however I have noticed the one of the goldfish has 2 lumps on his side.I did not notice this yesterday and I wonder if he might be diseased due to the water getting gruby over winter? 
The pond is only small about 3ft w x 2ftdepth and about 4ft deep and was built last year..
Last week I found a dead fish a shubunkin and he was half eaten..I saw him on Wednesday well his half eaten head but Sunday he was fine as far as I could tell.

I am just worried that now the pond is all clean that there still might be a disease in there with my lumpy goldfish..Shoudl I leave him to try to recover now he has nice clean water or remove him and put him in a bucket till the lumps go or he..well...dies.

Sorry I dont have a great deal of info.. I am relatively new to fishkeeping but advice from my dad who has 8 ginormous koi in his garden that are 30 years old and get soem info from him..but he is a bit koi orientated..

I would like to tget this sorted as I have some tadpoles I would like to introduce ion the next few weeks when they are large enough to go into the pond.
Thank you


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

your pond sounds overstocked to me, by quite a stretch. what size are the actual fish at the moment?

this is a tough time of year for many ponds, as many parasites and diseases are able to start working at colder temps than the fishes immune system, so it may be some kind of parasite? when you say half eaten, was it actually half eaten, or had the rest of him basically rotted away. bear in mind, that many fish are quite cannibalistic, and will happily chomp down on a dead and rotting fish, even if they wouldnt actively prey on live fish.

when you say you cleaned the filter, how well did you clean it, and what with? is it possible you cleaned it too well, and destroyed the bacteria colony, causing your pond to cycle, as they cycle in exactly the same way as tanks. this, combined with your overstocking, could be disastrous, to be honest.


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Overstocked..Oh dear..They are about 4" with the koi a little bigger. One orf is only about 2"..
The half eaten fish ..well it was only his head that was left and it was a shell I guess it had been eaten by the others..The one fish at present has a lump on his side..he has not been eaten..
I cleaned the filter by brushing away the algae and goo with a brush inthe water fromt he pond..
I cleaned the filter box in a similar manner..washed the various filters above the media in the water butt.

I have had the pond for a year and it seems to go along wuite well..I just wondered why they had eaten a fish unless it was poorly and died and they ate it..I was concerned that if it had a disease and now oneother has it..what is the best course of action to take?

If it is a case I have too many fish unless I remove some then i may have similar problems to come as the balance will not be kept in check.


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

okay, so, by the sounds of it, your small fish are alright for the time being, but by the end of summer, they will have grown to a size that you are overstocked. i would reasonably expect all your fish to grow quite a bit this summer, meaning by the end of summer you will have an 8" koi, 6"goldies and shubunkin, and similar sized orfe. the orfes body will be a lot deeper than it looks from the surface as well. i would look at rehoming the koi, that will be your biggest problem fish. simply removing that will help you out a lot. after that, see how it goes, but in a year or two, you will need serious filtration to cope with the fish as they get bigger
when you say bumps on the goldfish, are they lumps under the skin, or like sores? i'm leaning towards an internal parasite, which would possibly explain your previous death as well. you can get good treatments these days, which shouldnt cost much for such a small pond.


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Oh no..the koi is lovely..I will see if i can rehome him.
I will also try to find the details of the pump and filter box..if it helps..Is there a particular disease killer I should go for?
The lumps are under the skin they do not look like ulcers...
I hope it isnt in all the fishes.


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## Gutted2BLeaving (Jul 6, 2009)

Benh, I am sure that you mean well but I fear you are mis-informing the O.P with your advice.

The pond would happily house approximately 72 inches of fish body length, which basically breaks down to 6 fish of 12 inches. 

The Shubumkin probably died during the cold winter snap, half eaten head would suggest snail or other inverts eating it.

Reference the gold fish lumps, lets have a picture before we go any further. It could simply be carp pox, waxy, jelly like nodes which rarely prove fatal.

Don't re-home your koi if you think you have a problem in your pond, I don't think that your father would be happy with you spreading diseases and parasites. 

I'll pick up on this post tomorrow, if there is any feedback.:2thumb:


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

Gutted2BLeaving said:


> Benh, I am sure that you mean well but I fear you are mis-informing the O.P with your advice.
> 
> The pond would happily house approximately 72 inches of fish body length, which basically breaks down to 6 fish of 12 inches.
> 
> ...


Maybe im overreacting, on the stocking levels, but ultimately the pond is too small for any koi on anything other than a short term basis. It will reallynot take long for this koi to outgrow this pond. My guess at an 8" koi by endof summer is conservative, fed correctly, it will probably be bigger. A general koi rule of thumb is 50inch per 1000 gallons. With modern top of the range filtration, youre still only looking at 1" per 10 gallons. By my reckoning, that means with excellent filtration this pond can support a 15" koi, on its own. I would say that an 8" koi, which this will definitely be within a few short months, combined with what is already 20" or so of other fish, without any further growth, puts you on your limits. So if he starves his koi and doesnt feed his other fish, he'll be fine, lol. The goldfish will also quite possibly breed this summer, creating more bioload. 


I wouldnt have thought its carp pox, its quite distinctive, and doesnt appear to be under the skin. My thinking on the bumps, depending on the position on the body of the fish, I have known some parasitic worms to cause bulging under the skin.


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## Dibles (Nov 7, 2011)

Koi need loads of space etc etc the pond is not suitable!! Get down to a koi only stockist and they will say the same!! Frogs spawn in a koi pond says it all!! Your set up sadly is not suitable for koi. Do a partial water change make sure water is well oxygenated and dont feed them, they won't starve! The best thing I suggest you do is get your water tested!!! Your water is poor!!! My guess is either hIgh ammonia, nitrate or nitrite!


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Hi
Here are some pics of the pond.You cant see lumpy very well im afriad.

Why should you not add frog tadpoles to the pond? they are in a bucket at the minute until they get bigger then I will put them in..Once Koi is too large i will have to relocatehim to the pond 2 doors down but that should be fine ..Otherwise they do seem fine at present..


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## Gutted2BLeaving (Jul 6, 2009)

OK, I must put my hand up and say that I misread the pond dimensions, upon seeing the photos I am horrified to see what equates to nothing more then a cold water loft tank sunk into the ground. :censor:

To be honest, it looks totally unsuitable for anything. Wildlife looks like it could become trapped in there as it has no true means of escape, no shallow edges. The best thing to do would be to build something more suitable or pass the fish on to someone who can quarantine them before moving them in to a larger home with other fish.

Another thing - it looks like you're possibly over feeding them - un-eaten food will create even more problems with the water quality.

Benh, I owe you an appology :notworthy: Sorry.


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

Gutted, you dont owe me an apology, everyone reads things wrong at times mate. 

Having seen the pictures, I say, ditch it, build a proper pond, and start again. I can see space around that, to build something suitable for a couple of goldies to live out their life in. You have a filter and pump, liner is cheap. If you check out freecycle etc, you might find a small preformed that will fit for naff all. I know this is possible, I have one waiting to be dug in myself. Was supposed to be a bank holiday project, but the rain stopped it. Looking forward to putting another pond in, I get so much joy from my main one.

Surface area is the biggest problem there really, you will struggle with oxygenation. 

Im still leaning towards internal parasites for the bumpy fish, now is the most prone time of year for them. I have no preference on treatments, they all seem to work as well as each other these days.


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Thank you for the suggestions. I believe there is room to build a larger pond.It is something my OH and i have spoke about, having listened to your suggestions it is definatley something we will do.
I do not know of freecycle is this a fish stockist? I will have nose at some small pond preformed shapes to see what is available and to fit one of those in.

One question when is the best tiem to do this or in reality can it be done anytime prior to say about September time so they have chance to settle before winter?
Thanks again for suggestions and answers.


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

me again!!
Ok looking at preformed ponds..some of them are very small also...are some stores best to be avoided?Like those selling reptile vivvs far too small for the dragon etc?

a quick search finds ones like this with dimensions not bigger than what i have already...and it says for small fish..is there a fish that stays that small?!!

Thank you ..again

http://www.aquaticsite.co.uk/Lotus_Instant_Pond_Chub_74_x_89_x_30cm_Preformed_Pond.htm


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

spideysare said:


> me again!!
> Ok looking at preformed ponds..some of them are very small also...are some stores best to be avoided?Like those selling reptile vivvs far too small for the dragon etc?
> 
> a quick search finds ones like this with dimensions not bigger than what i have already...and it says for small fish..is there a fish that stays that small?!!
> ...


sadly you are right, there are ponds out there that say capable of fish, but frankly they are not. the one you have linked to, i would consider that a water feature, not a pond. i cant think of any fish for the pond that stay small and would be happy in that pond. even sticklebacks, males get territorial and defend areas larger than that pond. Although they do stay small, lol.

first things first, work out what size you can go to, and start from there. bigger is better, but it doesnt mean you have to go huge to have a couple of goldfish. You would however need something quite sizable to keep your koi. they just grow too big, too quick, for half measures, lol.

Freecycle is a site where people give away things they no longer need. i mentioned it as sometimes you get lucky, like i have. i am just waiting for decent weather, and i will do my small front garden, with virtually all freecycle stuff. it has taken a year or so, amassing parts, but i have a 6x4 preformed pond, pump, filter, block paving, sand, cement, gravel and weed membrane, all free. but i have been rather lucky.

for what its worth, in my 6x4 pond, as many preformed ponds are relatively shallow (its 2ft deep), i will be putting in 4/5 shubunkins from my main pond, and thats about it. they will breed, and the fry will be raised in there for sale, but the shubunkins will grow pretty big overtime, and it wont take long for them to start making that pond seem pretty small, especially once planted. they may even have to retire to my big pond again at some point.


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Thanks once again for the advice..
Having viewed the garden this morning I have laid out in my mind where my new big pond will go..As the gardenis odd inshape I think I will go for the pond liner option not a preformed one...

I presume the adage of deeper the better suffices?Especially with the very cold winters we now seem to be getting?

Not that other half knows yet but I think a good project for June during the jubillee perhaps!! Dig hole..put liner in..fill..leave for a week then add fish..

Ok off to investigate further and buy some medicine for lumpy

Thankyou..and rest assured fisshes will be looked after..


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

I would recommend bradshaws for your liner, good product at decent prices, and great service. There are many in depth guides out there for building ponds with liners, use your google~fu. 

I find a depth of 3.5 ft to be about right for healthy overwintering and reasonable swimming space, and kois appreciate depth, as I guess you really want to keep yours, lol. Many places say kois need at least 4ft, but its a fallacy, its generally just so you can keep a lot of fish in a smaller area. A koi dealer in my village has many of his fish in a 3ft deep pond, and they are his livelihood. Remember to upgrade filter to suit the new size pond.

It is very easy to get carried away with size, I ended up with 3000 gallons, and would have gone bigger, but the wife threw a duck fit, lol. 

Also, when the pond is done, remember to stock based on adult size fish. For example, my orfe are 3 years old or so, and comfortably measure 8". I expect that to eventually, maybe double. They sometimes even go bigger, but it is rare to be honest. 

Good luck, and remember, everyone loves a build thread


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Ok..bradshaws..I use them already...

Lets get going then...Mind made up June it is...I am halfway there in reality with the whole thats already dug.. i just need to expand it and create some shelves..Have been looking at this site for a good basis of a plan to get started.

How to Build A Water Garden or Fish Pond

Now the expensive part the filter in the pond..How will i know if i need a new one?
It is one my dad no longer needed and so gave to me..it is for smaller ponds but I do not know the make or how many gallons it can filter per minute etc..If i can use it i would rather but need to know how to check if i can!!with the filter box is it calculated on size..so if the box measures x then it can filet x amount of water per minute..which equates to a pond y size ?

If you know of a better link than the one I have seen could you let me know and I will calculate if i need to geet large pumps etc...As i would need to start looking now to get a bargain as money isnt growing on trees where im from!
Thanks again...


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Ok it son..Just spoke with OH....Hes on board!!! Maybe turn the teeny garden into 1 big pond!! with a bridge....

SO now design the shape minding hte eucalyptus tree etc..and calculate how big a pump i need and filter box,,if the ones I have are too small..

Rather excited..will start with before pics this weekend...


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

spideysare said:


> Ok it son..Just spoke with OH....Hes on board!!! Maybe turn the teeny garden into 1 big pond!! with a bridge....
> 
> SO now design the shape minding hte eucalyptus tree etc..and calculate how big a pump i need and filter box,,if the ones I have are too small..
> 
> Rather excited..will start with before pics this weekend...


oh dear, this is how it starts, lol. 
My thought processes went along the lines: 
Got garden, i can have a pond. 
I can have a big pond.
mark out a decent size.
stand in garden, think i can go bit bigger.
mark out 23ftx23ft quarter circle ish type shape.
thnk woohooooo.
dig with minidigger that was being used in garden already.
wife comes home.
bottom lip comes out, lots of shouting, lots of hasty refilling of hole.
end up with compromise. around 18x13 with 1 rounded corner.

annoyingly, the wife waits till its lined and full, with a fence round it, fish in etc to say, its not as big as it looked when it was just a hole. maybe it could have gone bigger! i could have murdered her, lol.

Bradshaws Direct - Please enable your cookies

read through that, it will explain most things for you, but with filter boxes, the bigger the better generally. you can make these easily enough yourself though, to any size you want really.


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Hahaha
Well I have suggested as garden is soo small to just dig it up..apart from the trees and rose thing...and pondify the whole thing..with a bridge to the pear tree..secretly thats still my plan!!!! ;o))

ok so make my own filter box..sounds easy enough....

Bradshaws here i come..


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

spideysare said:


> Hi
> 
> 
> Why should you not add frog tadpoles to the pond? they are in a bucket at the minute until they get bigger then I will put them in..Once Koi is too large i will have to relocatehim to the pond 2 doors down but that should be fine ..


we have 8 koi and they have outgrown our 16 ft pond in terms of keeping them properly,they aren't suited to small/medium poorly filtered ponds if they are to have a good standard of life,just doomed to poor health and death,sorry to be negative.The fish will eat the tadpoles.Ours manage medium sized prawns with no effort at all.I would rehome all of the fish and create a safe environment to enjoy the tadpoles in,water quality isn't as critical for tadpoles.

you've got to be realistic.These have taken just a couple of years to grow this big and we are in the middle of extending the pond.They would have suffered in a pond the size of yours without a doubt.


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Yes..I agree..So as you have prob read am embarking on a pool build!! So depending on how large I can go with my pond will depend if koi can stay with me or not..

Looking forward to the build Ben H has been most helpful

Your fish look very happy indeed..

When you say 16ft pond..for 8 koi..and they have outgrown it...They really do take a large pond dont they..
With the few I have my pond will have to be pretty comparable to that size I presume to be adequate.

Also you mention the pond is porrly filtered..mine that is....Why is it poorly filtered? The box isnt large enough were you pertaining to? Its helpful to get advice form those in the know.
Thank you


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

ah,sorry.I never saw the middle page.Here is our old filter.








here is the new one under construction.Personally I wished we'd stuck with goldfish.The oh has become obsessed,the garden is like a builders yard:devil:As the fish grew we hit health problems,parasites ,infected wounds etc because the water quality got harder to keep perfect.Now we have perfect fish, perfect water and an ugly pile of equipment.


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Oh my god..those filters are enormous!They woudl take up all my little garden..But your pondis a large one from the sound of it..

THe filter you show in your pics I take it is a better version of the filter box I have? Larger to cope with filtering a greater amount of water at a time to keep the chemical elements in check? I was hopiong to be able to utilise the pump and filter box I have but make the pond as large as I can with them. Mmmmm..this is where things get tricky..knowing
a) how big a pond the pump and box can realistically be used in
b) when measuring a pond i presume taking hte broadest width and length and depth to calculate an area will give me a figure I can put into a calculator to assess the filtration rate I need then somehow work out if my current equipment will do the job.!! Maths is NOT my greatest talent I have to say...

Ok...how to go about that i wonder..the pump and box bit...mmmmmm


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

sarahc said:


> ah,sorry.I never saw the middle page.Here is our old filter.
> image
> here is the new one under construction.Personally I wished we'd stuck with goldfish.The oh has become obsessed,the garden is like a builders yard:devil:As the fish grew we hit health problems,parasites ,infected wounds etc because the water quality got harder to keep perfect.Now we have perfect fish, perfect water and an ugly pile of equipment.
> image


Hi Sarah, thats an impressive looking setup youve got there. 
when you say 16ft, 16ft by what, out of curiosity? You look to have a major setup for just 8 fish? even by koi standards.

Spidey has definitely seen the light, and is i think now well on the way to pond addiction. it should be a recognised disability, lol. I cant afford koi equipment, so have had to stick to hardier fish, but it means i have natives as well as goldies, so there is always something going on.


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

spideysare said:


> Oh my god..those filters are enormous!They woudl take up all my little garden..But your pondis a large one from the sound of it..
> 
> THe filter you show in your pics I take it is a better version of the filter box I have? Larger to cope with filtering a greater amount of water at a time to keep the chemical elements in check? I was hopiong to be able to utilise the pump and filter box I have but make the pond as large as I can with them. Mmmmm..this is where things get tricky..knowing
> a) how big a pond the pump and box can realistically be used in
> ...


you know when i said to make your own filter, i was thinking that tub your fish are in could make a great filter. Partially buried, pump water in the top, stick a length of domestic waste pipe in, about 2-3" off the bottom, with an angle joint at the top so it comes out the side of the box about 6" from the top. fill the box with media, there are many different types, see what you can afford. Then you dont have to buy a new filter box, and can spend the money on pumps and uvs.


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## davei (Sep 29, 2009)

Im looking to build a small pond, with submergible filter/pump etc. those filters would take up most the room i have allocated for a pond


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Oh ok.... the tub is about 3ft deep...Woudl that not be a lot of media??At present th emedia in my filter box are the cut up knobbly bits of plastic you can get...also on top of those are the different filter sheets you can buy...so if i was to fill the existing "pond" with media and filter sheets it woudl cost a small fortune..woudl it not?
Also..concerned that i will run out of "pond" room... where the existing one is will be pretty much the area the new one goes..allbe it narrow there and fattening out toward back of garden..

But basically I need a box./. maybe in between the size of pond and box i have now..fill with media and those filter sheets..make an "in " hole at the top..and an 2out" hole for water going back to the pond..


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Quick one...do you think iots possible to see if the pump I have is recognisable as being ok for a small pond( but nos as small as I have now!!!) if i take a picture of it?

I will try to take one and post it in the morning..

Thanks


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

benh said:


> Hi Sarah, thats an impressive looking setup youve got there.
> when you say 16ft, 16ft by what, out of curiosity? You look to have a major setup for just 8 fish? even by koi standards.


It holds approx one thousand two hundred gallons,it's not very deep.Approx 3 ft and it's being dug out to 6ft plus depth to bring the capacity to approx two thousand five hundred gallons.That will allow 250 gallons per adult fish(2 more will be added).The filters/pumps will turn over 2000 gallons per hour.Be warned,we made the same mistake as you OP,to many fish in a preformed pond and now look,the OH is like a man posessed,two weeks holiday booked to spend digging:whip:.We have a seperate pond for frogs,they can bring parasites by the way.Good luck with your pond improvement.


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

Oh, right, kind of long but narrow then sarah. Sounds cool. Sounds like your OH really got hit hard.
I prefer natural looking ponds, so little chance of me getting hit by the koi bug, thankfully.

Spidey, the sheets only need to cover the top, they are just to stop large bits of detritus. The media sounds like flocor, which is essentially just cut up pieces of corrugated pipe. Its just to maximise surface area. Buy a few metres of pond hose, the black stuff you get for connecting pumps to filters, and just chopit into tiny sections. That becomes a very cheap and effective media, and is basically all flocor is.


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Measured the area I can use..and realistically I can go 7ft l x 4ft w and what ever depth I can dig to I guess!!

So how does that sound? Ok for the amount of fish I have?I was also thinking of putting al ittle bridge over the pond...not sure yet..but I think its a yes..as said the garden is teeny..so th epond will pretty much take up all of it..which is fine as its too small to do much else with!

Once I get all the plants out of the way that I can I may be able to get more room..

Oh and one thing..once i get started( if i had my way it would be rightnow..checkign out pond liners as i type) i remove the water form pond into a. other tub..then I presume I can put the fish in there..How long will they survive in there? I presume you see one hoel is dig liner put in etc and pond plants planted I haveto let it settle for a week..so will the fish be ok in a tub( prob the "pond" they are in now) until their big pond is ready?
Thank you


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Wow theres so many pond liners..Swell seem to do some good ones with free delivery..I have used swell for reptile things..but not fishy things..

Ohh i know im going ot buy one today...or a bridge
or some piping or or or or something!!!
First things first dig a hole


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

Dig your hole last, lol! Draw a detailed plan, buy all the bits, then dig your hole. Buy a bottle of haloex, and dose the water accordingly as you fill it. You can then be putting your fish in the next day. While the hole is dug, keep your fish in the tub, with your current pump and filter running. When you add the fish to the pond, take the media from old filter, and put that in the new one, then your pond is almost instantly cycled. You shouldnt have any real problems then, just keep an eye on it. 

If you can maintain an average depth of about 3 1/2 feet, you should be okay volume wise for the fish you have. This will give a volume of around 600 gallons, just under. With the koi, you should aim to pump around 2000 to 2500 litres an hour ideally. Then you should be set for the life of your fish. 

If you can take pics of the current pump and filter, we might be able to work out what you have already. Do you have a uv clarifier? There may be one built into your filter box if you dont have a separate one.


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Ok good advice..So I iwll start next weekend..I did say to OH im starting when I get home tonight..in my head its all planned out...

I was thinkingof this pond liner

Bradshaws Direct - Please enable your cookies
or this one
Gordon Low PVC POnd Liner 4 x 5 Metres | Garden Pond Supplies

Or are they just too cheap and nasty?
Thsi one is dearer but will it be worth it in long run?

Gordon Low Greenseal Pond Liner 4 x 5 Metres | Garden Pond Supplies

Also...what are peoples feelings on snails in ponds?Yes or no?I have ead about ramshorn and trapdoor snails?Can these go ion the pond?or a no no?
I dont believe there is a UV..
Can I have a pond that gets deep ion the middle..so it shallower to each side and then deeper inthe mioddle or does it have to go from shallow and then layered to deep?
Thank you


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

Right, your pond can do whatever it likes under the waterline, shelves, slopes etc, but the more intricate it is, the harder it is to fold the liners neatly. The trouble you have is that you need to maximise volume to keep your koi happy. I would probably say you really need to be thinking of a six to eight inch wide shelf, about eight to twelve inches deep along three sides to plant marginals on. Then maybe a second shelf two to three feet deep at one end for a small lily or similar. With slab sides down to about four feet everywhere else. Like I say, you need to try and maximise water volume where possible for your koi. Just an idea of course, but you have to remember that koi has very big needs in what is still a small pond. 

The liner, well I have the bradshaws one myself, have had for three and a half years. Its fine, perfectly good enough. I figured by the time the guarantee ran out, I will have remodelled anyway, and despite having gravel in the bottom, I can walk around in it while performing maintenance. The different guarantee lengths are a bit daft, as they are all the same liner. The price difference is because it is like an extended warranty on a tele from argos. 

Have you considered buying a kit from bradshaws, they do one for 220 which would be ideal for you, consisting of pump, filter with uvc, liner underlay and hose. Might be worth a tgought, but you should try and workout what pump you have first.


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Ok..started digging to see how i get on..I want it done ASAP to get fishes a new homw asap..
 
This is the pump i have.

And so far its about 2ft deep...i will go deeper obviously..But needed to make a start today.

So might get finished next weekend..


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

By eck, you dont hang around do you. 

The good news, is, it looks like your pump is up to the job. That saves some money. I would suggest, as you dont appear to have a uvc, that you buy a combined box filter, such as the oasis green 2 clean 12000. This is the easy option. Or, you can make a filter, as previously discussed, and buy a separate uvc such as a hozelock vorton. To be honest, a lesser uvc on its own costs about as much as the combined filter, which has a higher uv rating. Keep on digging!


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Well the rain comes to make digging harder.//But on I will go!!

TH eold pond is out and now contains the fishes..they seem happy enough.
Liner and underlay ordered form Bradshaws..My filter box has the capacity to have a uv light so I can get that wired in ..Now the old pond is out iot doesnt look as big! which is worrying..but i will dig a hole to Oz if i have to.

Now due to restrictions in size I am thinking of just having pretty much sheer sides on all areas apart form one bit that will be shallow..

So im nearly there!!
Couple fo questions if i may again

I have a small pond lily which i presume will still be ok in mt epond..but I thought maybe gettign another plant..is there any you suggest?? I thought about devising a contraption wherebuy i lower the plant and its tub into the pond to the right level and then suspenind from the top of the pond with a stone etc..this is due to me not having lots of shelves to put water plants on./. I saw callitriche and pennywort they look nice but wondered if there are probs with either of these?

Also I was thinking of putting some small pebbles on the bottom so you can see the bottom of the pond ..any suggestions with this idea or is it stupid!!

Think thats it for now!!
Thank you


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Sorry..Hopw about snails in the pond..good or bad? will they take over and deplete oxygen or just make too much mess and theres no real need for them?

Thanks!


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

fitting a uv into your current filter sounds great, saves you some funds, as well as time and effort.

The slab sides will be fine, makes it easier to get the all important volume and swimming length for that koi.

The lily will be fine, as for the pulley system plant thing, there is already a product out there that does exactly that (google zenith plant pump float)
, i have just always been curious of the effect of fish rubbing the line, causing your plant to go up and down?

I have in my pond a water hawthorne which is very pretty in bloom, and gives elongated lily type leaf coverage.

I have no experience of the plants you mention. I have yellow flag iris around the edges, along with a couple of others that i dont know the names for, as i simply pinched a bit from friends ponds and put them in, lol. but most plants would need to sit on your shelf, or you can get pocket things that hang over the sides for when you dont have a shelf, but still want marginal plants.

I have snails, but as i wanted it to look natural, they were kind of essential for me, fish will eat baby snails quite readily, but you will eventually be over run anyway. 

I have gravel on the bottom of mine, but its a magnet for dirt and sludge, so not as visible as you might think


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Ok i think dig nearly done..My hands are very sore and so is the rest o me!! Just need now to clear some soil away and"makegood"

The majority of the pond os 4ft..with a coupole of low level shelves,
Luckily its been raining allw eek so its made my job so much easier!!! NNNNOOOOTTTTTT

Any whoo hears the building site that is my back garden!!




Oh luckily it appears that the soil is predominantly made up of sand at 4foot below surface level!!!


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

Looking good, just waiting on all your parts now then is it?

You may be sore, but your fish will be so much happier when they're in, it will all be worth it. you will get way more enjoyment from them when they are swimming around happily, rather than on top of each other like before.


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Yes..
Liner is here..went for the bradshwas one..with the suggested underlay,,thats arriving tomorrow..Uv bulb ,,still investigating which one I need..Errrmmm..oh pots on the way..for my water plants..water plants on the way..looking for a water hawthorn now!
Mmmmm decided against gravel..as well i wont see it in few months as you say..cant wait to get it filled..should occur this weekend..oohh got the water heroax you suggested...i actually got it from a store called Vet somethign or other..and i got 120 ml as I think my tank will hold maxx 2975 litres...going by 7ft max length by 5ft max 4ft deep..so will prob in reality be a little less than that...but the price was good..i think £4 per bottle.

Other than that..all goign well..other half I think last night was worried due to the mound of soil I had accumulated and the tip the garden looks!! But I assured him there is method in amongst the chaos..i think he can see the light now!! Wish the rain would hold off a bit though..

One thing..when getting fishes out of old tub..i did handle them a little only to check them over..dont worry no handcream on etc,...but oen of the fish didnt look very scaly..the shubumkin..Woudl ths be due to the water quality??
THe goldfish and orf looked ok..Albe it one of the orf is about half the size of the other and they were bought at the same time..maybe they are fighting for food.But just wondered what you thought?


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Oh i got another question...food
I use pond sticks..from pet shop..What other "treats" can you give them?
I read one of the posts on here said about prawns..I presume raw prawns..unfrozen..but are there any other things that woudl be good for their"coats" etc?


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

spideysare said:


> Yes..
> Liner is here..went for the bradshwas one..with the suggested underlay,,thats arriving tomorrow..Uv bulb ,,still investigating which one I need..Errrmmm..oh pots on the way..for my water plants..water plants on the way..looking for a water hawthorn now!
> Mmmmm decided against gravel..as well i wont see it in few months as you say..cant wait to get it filled..should occur this weekend..oohh got the water heroax you suggested...i actually got it from a store called Vet somethign or other..and i got 120 ml as I think my tank will hold maxx 2975 litres...going by 7ft max length by 5ft max 4ft deep..so will prob in reality be a little less than that...but the price was good..i think £4 per bottle.
> 
> ...


Scales are never as pronounced on shubunkins anyway, so i wouldnt worry about that one. If you could see sores, i would be concerned, otherwise, i'm not. 
The orfe size, could be food related, more likely pond size related. Just see how it gets on over the next few months. Some fish do just grow faster than others, its the genes, same as it is with us.
I wouldnt worry about handling, wet hands is the main thing to remember, but always best to avoid hand creams and so on like you say.
I got my hawthorne from a local water gardens place, garden centres often sell pond plants as well if they have an aquatics bit.


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

spideysare said:


> Oh i got another question...food
> I use pond sticks..from pet shop..What other "treats" can you give them?
> I read one of the posts on here said about prawns..I presume raw prawns..unfrozen..but are there any other things that woudl be good for their"coats" etc?


erm, i just give them a decent pond food, although i buy pellets rather than sticks, but thats much of a muchness really.

They will take prawns when they are bigger, or they are cut down smaller, i treat mine with maggots and chopped worms as well, but i'm an angler, so i have these things around anyway. Prawns dont have to be raw, just ordinary cooked frozen are fine. 

Fish don't recognize treats in the way other animals do, a good fish food will register as a treat more than any of the above mentioned treats, lol.


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Wonderful..ok thank you..Good to knwo about the scales etc..
I tell you Koi dont like being touched..I can understand this..Im sure of i was a fish i woudlnt appreciate it..But ghost koi is a feisty fella..

well its not raining now so fingers crossed when i get home its a little drier!

Thanks for hte help..Will post pics when its all done


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Sorry!!
Last thing..I have been buying the filters from Bradshaws the pack of 3 with different filters for differnet sizes of detrius...
I presume these are suitable?Or should I put more floci in and less filters?
Thank you


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

spideysare said:


> Sorry!!
> Last thing..I have been buying the filters from Bradshaws the pack of 3 with different filters for differnet sizes of detrius...
> I presume these are suitable?Or should I put more floci in and less filters?
> Thank you


To be honest, its very rare i buy anything for the filter at all. 

once a month or so, i take a bucket of water from the pond. I take the foams from the top of the filter, and basically give them a squeeze out and a swish about in the bucket, to remove the bits that have got caught up in them. Their main job really is to collect larger solids, thats about it. I replace these once they stop fluffing back out to original thickness or there abouts.
Then i tip that bucket down the drain and get another one. i swish the flocor about in the filter box to dislodge any crap that has made it through the foam, then i tip this out without removing the flocor. i chuck in the other bucket of pond water, and swirl it round again, before tipping it out again. Then i reconnnect it all back up, and turn it on again.

You don't need to replace anything in the filter very often really, as it all holds bacteria, which you need to deal with the fish waste. Just give it a rinse in pond water and off you go again. 

I have three sizes of foam, and then as much flocor as will fit, basically.


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Thank you Benh thats great advice..


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Ok d day arrives..well tomorrow it does.. underlay and liner are here..a couple of nice pond plants..althoguh the basket is a bit big....

my question is do i place the pump the opposite end to the filter box and place the pump ontop of some bricks..

Thank you


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

spideysare said:


> Ok d day arrives..well tomorrow it does.. underlay and liner are here..a couple of nice pond plants..althoguh the basket is a bit big....
> 
> my question is do i place the pump the opposite end to the filter box and place the pump ontop of some bricks..
> 
> Thank you


while not essential to place them at opposite ends, it helps circulation if you do, so if you can, you might as well.

Definitely put the pump on a couple of bricks if you can, it just helps keep it clear of any silt build up you get on the bottom, so it doesnt clog as easily.

I must say, its commendable how quickly you have turned things around since realising what you had before was way too small. Well done.


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Thank you once again Benh for your help..Having read your a fisherman I should see what gear my dad has that he could sell..you might e interested!!

He was a very keen angler until his back wouldnt let him do it any more.
He has a shed full of beautiful brand new lines poles everything..I think he wants to seel but part of him thinks his back my miraculously recover!!

Ok.. so a couple of brickes to lift pump off floor..

Ok think im nearly there..well apart from finding out that my village lies on a snad belt..whcih is excellent for the pond as i have a luch layer of wet natural; sand underneath my pond liner etc...but it means i have a pile of sand I need to find somethign to grow in.!!1 grasses it is..Its a shame as if i knew this I oculd have digs a marine pond ..call ti a mini Eden project!!

Ok..sorry...my dad somethgn about...Pond garden tonic salt././/a kind of goodness thing for the fishes..
Do you use anything like this??

Thanks..I am slightly OCD with things..after the bashing I got for my poor husbandry I decided to change it..i love animals and to be fair I must have lost sight of the fishes a bit as they got bigger..and should have doemn more research before dopign anything fishy anyway..

Will post pics at weekend..well will post pics if goes to plan..other wise will post someop other pics and claim them as my own..


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Promise last question

When laying the liner and underlay..can I get int he pond with socks on to smooth bits out..

Thank you


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

spideysare said:


> Promise last question
> 
> When laying the liner and underlay..can I get int he pond with socks on to smooth bits out..
> 
> Thank you


 
you can but you might shock the neighbours and there is a bit of a chill in the wind so watch out for frost bite


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

hahaah I did mean socks and other clothes not just socks!!!!hahaha


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

I havent used salt myself for a long time, or very often either. Its kind of like a general fix all for fish, to aid recovery from disease and stress, and when ive treated pond fish with it, I have always kept them in a tub for a few days to do it. Its not something a healthy pond will need really. 

As for socks on the liner, well, it worked for me, lol. I wear my waders for maintenance while its full, I just tread carefully, and made sure theres no stones under it when I built it. The bradshaw liners are a strong, ripstop type plastic, youd be surprised what hammer it can take.

You should be fine with all that sand though, makes for a lovely base under your pond.


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

So its done..Thank you for all the help Ben h..it was hard work but worth it
Here are some pics



That was Friday night and liner in..nearly finished us both off..it was huge..but surprisingly not much waste once it was got into position

and here it is now!!


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

couple more
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...-albums-pond-build-picture174039-photo-4.html 



















Looks tiny when its just the liner..yet its nearly 4ft deep!!!


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

Yay, well done spidey, looks great. Just needs to settle and things to grow in around it. Awesome.

Once again, i cant believe you turned things around so quickly from what you had before. Nice one. 

your fish will appreciate it, even if you cant tell they do, lol.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

looking good :2thumb: well done for doing the best for your fish, and im amazed how fast you did it too, especially with the weather how its been the past couple weeks!


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

*small pond .....5 weeks on*

Ok.. Pond is goign really well.. Had 2 damselflies on it yesterday...no frogs from my tadpoles as yet..maybe they were all eaten...shame...my black goldfish is still black..when do they go gold??

Other than that fishes seem happy enough..still hide from em though at feeding time..but its only been 5 weeks so maybe they are still shy..

I thought some updated pics might go down well so here they are!! I recently put hte large granite stones around the edge..i think they really work well.Neighbour had them spare!


Daft as it sounds but I wonder if the pond could take one more fish?? Shubunkin doesnt have a mate( i know koi doesnt either but ht epond defo cant take another one im sure) so i wondered if getting 1 mroe shubunkin might be ok??
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...-albums-pond-build-picture174040-photo-5.html


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

spideysare said:


> Ok.. Pond is goign really well.. Had 2 damselflies on it yesterday...no frogs from my tadpoles as yet..maybe they were all eaten...shame...my black goldfish is still black..when do they go gold??
> 
> Other than that fishes seem happy enough..still hide from em though at feeding time..but its only been 5 weeks so maybe they are still shy..
> 
> ...


Hey Spidey, looking good mate. Nice to see it all settling in, looking great in fact. Plants are growing in well, which is nice to see. 

Some Goldfish never go gold, as every so often the genes throw out a Brown Goldfish, which is in fact their natural colour. However, I believe in the case of commons, that UV has a major part to play in the colour change, as mine tend to change when the sun is out. nearly all of last years babies (the survivors anyway, lol) are still brown, but look like they will change this summer. I have a Brown who is at least 6 years old, so i'm fairly confident he isn't gonna change colour now.

You could handle another shubunkin in there, but for what its worth, your shubunkin will not be lonely, lol. I understand you wanting to even out the numbers a bit though. The shubunkin will be happy with your goldfish anyway, they are the same species. Shubunkins have just been bred for colour.


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