# stargazing



## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

anybody know what 'stargazing' is in corns, and how its caused? i've heard the term being batted around here and there, but no one actually has any answers?


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

never heard of stargazing in corns, it usually applies to boas and pythons with ibd


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## bribrian (Jan 12, 2006)

It appears to be a neurological defect gene which is mainly in the sunkissed line at the moment. The effected snakes seem to act normally until they are agitated or feeding & then they seem to loose co-ordination with their heads flailing about. I've seen a vid of one, i'll try to find it for you......


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

cheers brian


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## bribrian (Jan 12, 2006)

Here's a couple, copyright of Connie Hurley of CCCorns....
http://cccorns.com/freepics/2007/Jan/StarGazers.avi
http://cccorns.com/freepics/2007/Jan/StarGazers2.avi


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

well, i never knew that, so is that purely from breeding rather than in infectious disease like boids?


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

awww its so sad! i've just had a read on connies forum, it seems its a recessive trait. I'm going to have a big google tomorrow to see if i can find out where it originated, and if its the result of inbreeding or not.


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## bribrian (Jan 12, 2006)

Yeah, it seems like it's a recessive trait & Connie & others are doing breeding trials at the moment to try & identify affected stock in their collections to help stop it spread. If you find anything post it up........


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## DevilAngel (Feb 16, 2007)

This genetic defects which can be caused by massive inbreeding are really keeping me off those colorful morphs..

I rather have a "normal" coloured animal than one of those morphs where nobody know which genetic defects they could have and how long their lifespan under normal conditions (no diseases, etc ) is. 
I think, their immune system is also not as good.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

DevilAngel said:


> This genetic defects which can be caused by massive inbreeding are really keeping me off those colorful morphs..
> 
> I rather have a "normal" coloured animal than one of those morphs where nobody know which genetic defects they could have and how long their lifespan under normal conditions (no diseases, etc ) is.
> I think, their immune system is also not as good.


 
with respect, short of finding true wild stock in the uk, there could potentially be problems in any colour morphs, i dont think there are any corns in the uk(or alot of other snakes) that have not had a degree of inbreeding etc

Youve got just as much chance having potential problems with a carolina or miami phase than some of the less common morphs in this day and age, they also get bred with their siblings and parents too


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## It's corny but.. (Feb 7, 2007)

That vids actually really upset me. I feel awful. What did she do with the snakes, has she kept them or put them to sleep?


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

DevilAngel said:


> This genetic defects which can be caused by massive inbreeding are really keeping me off those colorful morphs..


This problem is not caused by inbreeding - it can be identified and removed from lines by careful inbreeding, but the cause is random mutation.


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## DevilAngel (Feb 16, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> with respect, short of finding true wild stock in the uk, there could potentially be problems in any colour morphs, i dont think there are any corns in the uk(or alot of other snakes) that have not had a degree of inbreeding etc


Of course, I absolutely agree on this.


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

i've had a bit of a read up and can't seem to find very much on corns, although theres plenty about ibd in boids

brian: from reading up on a few american forums it seems there _may_ be two different lines of 'stargazers' but breeding trials haven't started to prove or disprove if its the same gene causing the condition. Also connie may be sending affected hatchlings for analysis, but i don't know if any labs have shown an interest or not. i also found a snippet from kathy love about a similar condition she noted in some hypo okeetees (wild stock i think), but i think it was in 'past' projects.

toyah: its presently thought to be a recessive trait, so like other recessive traits (eg. amelanism) it is passed down the generations and is only noticeable in its homozygous form, therefore a corn can be het for stargazing, but not be affected by it.

everyone else: corns affected by the defective gene can still make perfectly good PETS as long as they are NOT bred, to try to contain the condition, and hopefully eliminate it from the gene pool. Connie has stated that the animals affected should not be culled, as they are a valuable resource in learning and understanding the cause of stargazing.

sadly though i did learn that theres no cure for boids with ibd, and its a terminal condition


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## bribrian (Jan 12, 2006)

eeji said:


> brian: from reading up on a few american forums it seems there _may_ be two different lines of 'stargazers' but breeding trials haven't started to prove or disprove if its the same gene causing the condition. Also connie may be sending affected hatchlings for analysis, but i don't know if any labs have shown an interest or not. i also found a snippet from kathy love about a similar condition she noted in some hypo okeetees (wild stock i think), but i think it was in 'past' projects.


Yeah, Connie sent hatchlings for testing but no anatomical abnormality was found but they weren't big enough to get enough blood to screen for metabolic abnormalities. Thinking of the Kathy Love thing, sunkissed is a type of hypo which came from her okeetees so may well be the same thing........


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

bribrian said:


> Thinking of the Kathy Love thing, sunkissed is a type of hypo which came from her okeetees so may well be the same thing........


hmmmm....
it was a quote of something from somewhere, i think i saw it on cornsnakes.com, but it didn't seem to get followed up....

at least i know what it is now anyway!


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

never had a problem with any of my sunkissed


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## baby05x (Aug 1, 2006)

DevilAngel said:


> This genetic defects which can be caused by massive inbreeding are really keeping me off those colorful morphs..
> 
> I rather have a "normal" coloured animal than one of those morphs where nobody know which genetic defects they could have and how long their lifespan under normal conditions (no diseases, etc ) is.
> I think, their immune system is also not as good.


i was gonna say i have a rat with brain damage and her head goes like that
i think she was inbreed i brought her and another 2 rats and she is the one that is like it


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

cornmorphs said:


> never had a problem with any of my sunkissed


from the lack of available information, i'm guessing its a fairly new discovery, and i can only find a handful of names (all in america) that are currently involved, so the chance of the genes being over here are quite slim (IMO)


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## bribrian (Jan 12, 2006)

TBO i would suspect all sunkissed to be possible Sfactored as all the top US breeders have encountered it but only now knowing what it is. You could be lucky for years breeding a het stargazer to a clear animal but further down the line the problems would arise with a possible 50% of offspring being hets....


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## SCI (Feb 28, 2006)

DevilAngel said:


> This genetic defects which can be caused by massive inbreeding are really keeping me off those colorful morphs..
> 
> I rather have a "normal" coloured animal than one of those morphs where nobody know which genetic defects they could have and how long their lifespan under normal conditions (no diseases, etc ) is.
> I think, their immune system is also not as good.


There's not as many problems with inbreeding reptiles as you would think.Most responsible breeders will breed out the colours for hets
to bring new strong blood back in.It's also worth bearing in mind that
all oz reptiles for instance are bred from out of a handful of animals 
there government will give a permits for and all those amel corn morphs out
there come from one snake found in 1959.I don't have any more problems 
with amel morphs than I would have with natural colours.


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