# Enchi and co-dominant genes



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

So, an Enchi is a co-dominant morph...

What two dominant types do you have to put together to breed one?


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## NBLADE (Apr 11, 2007)

doesn't work like that, enchi being co dom means all you need to produce more is an enchi, as it is co dom, breed an enchi to a normal, and produce 50% chance per egg of it being a normal, and 50% chance per egg of it being an enchi. 
If you breed two enchi together you get a super enchi, and if you breed that to a normal, all offspring will be enchis.


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

This is a funneh fail.


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

reptile_man_08 said:


> This is a funneh fail.


What?


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

NBLADE said:


> doesn't work like that, enchi being co dom means all you need to produce more is an enchi, as it is co dom...


First take your enchi...

Where do you get it from in the first place is my question. What makes an enchi? Not how do I get more...how would you breed one in the first place?


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## markhill (Sep 22, 2006)

Wolflore said:


> First take your enchi...
> 
> Where do you get it from in the first place is my question. What makes an enchi? Not how do I get more...how would you breed one in the first place?


you would have to buy one.

They are a base co-dom morph so cant be made using other morphs.


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## DASSIE (Jul 8, 2006)

you would have to purchase one ! Like any other co-dom morph , you need one to make more . Enchi's have a lovely peachy colour to them , and a dfferent patterning especially toward the tail end (broad patterning) and many enchi's have a 'moustache' pattern on their top lip .


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Ok, so a co-Dom morph can not be bred?

The morph just appeared in nature and they were bred to establish that they were in fact a genetic type rather than just an odd patterned normal?

Or did they just suddenly appear in a breeding line? Are they a mutation due to intensive breeding rather than a natural occurance?

I'm sorry for all the questions, just trying to get my head round it.

While I'm at it, if you breed a co-Dom to a normal, take one of the resulting 'normal' looking snakes, what would be their make-up?


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

Wolflore said:


> While I'm at it, if you breed a co-Dom to a normal, take one of the resulting 'normal' looking snakes, what would be their make-up?




They would be normal, it will only carry the normal genes. If one parent was say albino & one parent normal all offspring will be normal looking but would be 100% het albino :2thumb:.


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## markhill (Sep 22, 2006)

Wolflore said:


> Ok, so a co-Dom morph can not be bred?
> 
> *The morph just appeared in nature and they were bred to establish that they were in fact a genetic type rather than just an odd patterned normal?*
> 
> ...


exactly that: victory:

If you breed a co-dom to a normal the normal looking babies are just that, Normal.


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## NBLADE (Apr 11, 2007)

Wolflore said:


> First take your enchi...
> 
> Where do you get it from in the first place is my question. What makes an enchi? Not how do I get more...how would you breed one in the first place?


 
ah yea in that case, enchi was found in the wild, bred and found to be a co dom morph with a super form, so the only way to get an enchi is to buy an enchi or a morph with enchi in it, and the normals from enchi to normal will be normals, there is no het enchi, the snake either shows the visual enchi, or it doesn't have the enchi gene.


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## roddy mac (Dec 10, 2009)

The Enchi is a co-dominant mutation that was first proven genetic by Lars Brandell of Sweden in 2002. They were named after the region in Africa where they were first discovered. The Enchi is sometimes referred to as an Enchi Pastel, which is both incorrect and misleading. The Enchi has nothing to do with any of the established lines of pastels. It is a unique morph that is both a color and pattern mutation. The Enchis have golden yellow sides, the dark pigmentation is chocolate and their faded saddles exhibit a copper/bronze color. The Enchi also has a greatly reduced pattern. The "Super" Enchi is an extreme version of the Enchi, with a further reduction in pattern and a lighter more intense color. Enchis are also a valuable ingredient when making some designer morphs as they reduce pattern and alter color.


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## roddy mac (Dec 10, 2009)

hope that helps you understand :whistling2:


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## NBLADE (Apr 11, 2007)

roddy mac said:


> The Enchi is a co-dominant mutation that was first proven genetic by Lars Brandell of Sweden in 2002. They were named after the region in Africa where they were first discovered.* The Enchi is sometimes referred to as an Enchi Pastel, which is both incorrect and misleading.* The Enchi has nothing to do with any of the established lines of pastels. It is a unique morph that is both a color and pattern mutation. The Enchis have golden yellow sides, the dark pigmentation is chocolate and their faded saddles exhibit a copper/bronze color. The Enchi also has a greatly reduced pattern. The "Super" Enchi is an extreme version of the Enchi, with a further reduction in pattern and a lighter more intense color. Enchis are also a valuable ingredient when making some designer morphs as they reduce pattern and alter color.


 
when the morph first come around they were called enchi pastels, as it was believed they was a different line of pastel, however when people started breeding them to pastels to create true enchi pastels it was dropped to avoid confusion, and recognised as its own seperate morph.


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## roddy mac (Dec 10, 2009)

*The Enchi is sometimes referred to as an Enchi Pastel, which is both incorrect and misleading*


its saying its not a pastel.. the enchi is a morph of its own ... like a pastel is a morph or its own... the refference to people callin them an enchi pastel is wrong

bottom line you want an enchi you buy an echi they cant be made using other snakes to make them


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

So an Enchi must be het for normal then?

How else would an Enchi x Normal pairing produce Normal offspring.

So in essence, an Enchi has two dominant mutations showing through and a normal - recessive - gene. Hence why you can get a super, you cross an enchi with an enchi and you remove the normal aspect.

I think...


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## tomwilson (Feb 27, 2010)

Wolflore said:


> So an Enchi must be het for normal then?
> 
> How else would an Enchi x Normal pairing produce Normal offspring.
> 
> ...


 this is correct but you're over complicating it for your self


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## NBLADE (Apr 11, 2007)

roddy mac said:


> *The Enchi is sometimes referred to as an Enchi Pastel, which is both incorrect and misleading*
> 
> 
> its saying its not a pastel.. the enchi is a morph of its own ... like a pastel is a morph or its own... the refference to people callin them an enchi pastel is wrong
> ...


 
ah but it is only recently that the pastel has been dropped from the enchi, just like the jungle was dropped from pastels aswell. but yes you want an enchi you need a snake that is an enchi or an enchi combo to produce them.




Wolflore said:


> So an Enchi must be het for normal then?
> 
> How else would an Enchi x Normal pairing produce Normal offspring.
> 
> ...


No, an enchi has two allele's one will be normal, one will be enchi, so an enchi gene would be like this EN the e for enchi, the n for normal, so breeding to a normal, the normal gene is passed over, and the enchi is passed over, but the babies only get one part from each parent, which is why half of the babies will get the enchi gene, the other half wont, 

i would try and right this more scientifically to make more sense, but its been a long day lol, but have a look at this it may help you 

New England Reptile Distributors, designer Ball Pythons, Reticulated Pythons, and much more!


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## NBLADE (Apr 11, 2007)

Wolflore said:


> So an Enchi must be het for normal then?
> 
> How else would an Enchi x Normal pairing produce Normal offspring.
> 
> ...


 
oh and if you breed an enchi to an enchi, you do not remove the normal, you would have 50% chance of getting enchis, 25% chance of getting super enchis, and 25% chance of getting normals, chances are per egg not per clutch 

however super enchi to a normal you would produce all enchi babies,


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

So an Enchi is En (where E=Enchi and n=normal)
and a Super Enchi would be EE?

And the Enchi alelle has 2 dominant parts, a colour dominance and a pattern dominance. Hence the visual changes.

I think I get it. I think what confused me was the chrysathamums!

A pink crysanthamum is co-Dom. It has two dominant colour genes - White and red. But not a co-Dom form gene. So it always looks the same, just the pattern changes.


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## NBLADE (Apr 11, 2007)

Wolflore said:


> So an Enchi is En (where E=Enchi and n=normal)
> and a Super Enchi would be EE?
> 
> And the Enchi alelle has 2 dominant parts, a colour dominance and a pattern dominance. Hence the visual changes.
> ...


 
yes super enchi would be EE so breeding to a normal, (NN) would produce all enchis (EN).


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

:no1:

Cool, I can sleep soundly tonight now. Thanks for your patience. :2thumb:


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

Wolflore said:


> Ok, so a co-Dom morph can not be bred?
> 
> The morph just appeared in nature and they were bred to establish that they were in fact a genetic type rather than just an odd patterned normal?
> 
> Or did they just suddenly appear in a breeding line? Are they a mutation due to intensive breeding rather than a natural occurance?


Enchi is produced by the action of a single mutant gene that happens to be codominant to the normal alternative gene.

Albino is produced by the action of a single mutant gene that happens to be recessive to the normal alternative gene.

As far as I know, the enchi morph just appeared in nature and was bred to establish that it was a genetic type rather than an odd patterned normal.

The albino morph just appeared in nature and was bred to establish that it was a genetic type rather than an odd colored normal.

Most royal python mutant genes were found in wild snakes. But that is because there are more breeding royal pythons in the wild than in captivity. As time goes on, more mutants will turn up in the captive breeding population.

Genes mutate because of radiation, mutagenic chemicals, and other stresses. If nobody is stressing the animals on purpose, as in the wild snakes, all we can do is shrug and say the mutation happened spontaneously, with actual cause unknown.

Hope that helps you get your head around it.


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

Wolflore said:


> So an Enchi is En (where E=Enchi and n=normal)
> and a Super Enchi would be EE?
> 
> And the Enchi alelle has 2 dominant parts, a colour dominance and a pattern dominance. Hence the visual changes.
> ...


We are concerned with one pair of genes, which can be any one of the three pairs of genes in the next paragraph. 

Symbols: E = enchi, and N = normal. Each gene in the gene pair can be either E or N. That makes three possible gene pairs -- EE (super enchi), EN (= NE) (enchi) and NN (normal).

Saying that Enchi has 2 dominant parts, a colour dominance and a pattern dominance, is inaccurate. Enchi is a single mutant gene, not two mutant genes. It is better to say that the enchi mutant gene affects both color and pattern. And the enchi mutant gene is codominant to the normal alternative gene, not dominant.

The pro geneticists use the normal or wild type gene as the standard of comparison. The normal gene is the most common gene at a given location in the chromosomes. A mutant gene is NOT the most common gene at a given location in the chromosomes. A normal gene is the standard; it is not dominant, codominant, or recessive to anything. A mutant gene is dominant, codominant, or recessive to the normal alternative gene. Clear as mud?

I think you misunderstand the crysanthamums. There are two genes in crysanthamums, a white mutant gene (W) and a normal gene for red (N). The white mutant gene is codominant to the normal gene. Those two genes make three gene pairs -- WW (white), WN (pink), and NN (red or normal).

As I wrote above, E = enchi and N = normal. These two genes can make three gene pairs -- EE (super enchi), EN (enchi) and NN (normal). 

So royal python EE (super enchi) is the equivalent of crysanthamum WW (white). Royal python EN (enchi) is the equivalent of crysanthamum WN (pink). And royal python NN (normal) is the equivalent of crysanthamum NN (red or normal).

Hope that helps.


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Ah, I think the penny has just dropped...

So the Enchi gene is codominant with the Normal (wild type) hence why both show.

It is not that there are two others, but one other plus the normal. 

Thanks.


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

Right. Enchi and normal are two genes, not three. 

Often people say that the (fill in the blank) mutant gene is codominant, without specifying what it is codominant to. Then we always mean that it is codominant to the normal gene.


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

paulh said:


> Right. Enchi and normal are two genes, not three.
> 
> Often people say that the (fill in the blank) mutant gene is codominant, without specifying what it is codominant to. Then we always mean that it is codominant to the normal gene.


Exactly what I said. Finally I'm on the same page.

Thanks folks!


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## djmike (Oct 31, 2011)

so you say yo dont get a enchi pastel what if i put a enchi to a pastel 
what would this be called?


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

djmike said:


> so you say yo dont get a enchi pastel what if i put a enchi to a pastel
> what would this be called?


I don't understand where you are coming from? Please quite the bit of text you refer to. Enchi and pastel are both co-dominant genes and so both show.


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## djmike (Oct 31, 2011)

roddy mac said:


> The Enchi is a co-dominant mutation that was first proven genetic by Lars Brandell of Sweden in 2002. They were named after the region in Africa where they were first discovered. The Enchi is sometimes referred to as an Enchi Pastel, which is both incorrect and misleading. The Enchi has nothing to do with any of the established lines of pastels. It is a unique morph that is both a color and pattern mutation. The Enchis have golden yellow sides, the dark pigmentation is chocolate and their faded saddles exhibit a copper/bronze color. The Enchi also has a greatly reduced pattern. The "Super" Enchi is an extreme version of the Enchi, with a further reduction in pattern and a lighter more intense color. Enchis are also a valuable ingredient when making some designer morphs as they reduce pattern and alter color.


this 1 here


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Ah, yes.

You can have a Pastel Enchi. But the Enchi morph (on its own, without the pastel morph in there) was once called the Enchi Pastel. I hope this makes sense. If it doesn't, re-read the bit you quoted a few times and it may become clear.


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## fishboy (Aug 7, 2007)

Wolflore said:


> So, an Enchi is a co-dominant morph...
> 
> What two dominant types do you have to put together to breed one?



Hi Anthony!

Co-dominant means that:

The gene is expressed visually in the heterozygous form (when an animal carries a single copy of the gene) but a different visual variant is expressed when the animal carries 2 copies of the gene.

so

(E = ENCHI, N = NORMAL)

each egg from a het enchi x het enchi clutch would have the potential to be

25% NN (normal)

25% NE (heterozygous enchi)

25% EN (heterozygous enchi)

25% EE (Homozygous - or "super" enchi)

Much the same as a pastel.


In a dominant morph there is no visually different homozygous form for one reason or another. (spider - pinstripe)


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## fishboy (Aug 7, 2007)

Wolflore said:


> So an Enchi must be het for normal then?
> 
> How else would an Enchi x Normal pairing produce Normal offspring.
> 
> ...



Didn't realise this had already been answered :lol2:

The above is very correct.


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Thanks Andy! Only took you a year and a half to answer  : victory:


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

Wolflore said:


> Ok, so a co-Dom morph can not be bred?
> 
> The morph just appeared in nature and they were bred to establish that they were in fact a genetic type rather than just an odd patterned normal?
> 
> Or did they just suddenly appear in a breeding line? Are they a mutation due to intensive breeding rather than a natural occurance?



You cannot breed two genetically normal snakes and EXPECT to get a baby with a mutant gene. This applies to recessive mutant genes like albino or piebald, codominant mutant genes like enchi or pastel, and dominant mutant genes like pinstripe. There is a very, very tiny chance that there will be a genetic hiccup that produces a mutant gene. This could be caused by X-rays, radioactive isotopes, mutagenic chemicals, old age, or some other reason. This could happen in captivity or in the wild. There are a lot more breeding royal pythons in the wild than in captivity, so the chances of a mutant gene appearing are greater in the wild than in captivity at this time. Once a mutant gene shows up, then the snake possessing it can be bred to produce more snakes with the mutant.

Edit. Sorry about double posting. I did not pay attention to the dates of previous posts. Mea culpa.


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## fishboy (Aug 7, 2007)

Wolflore said:


> Thanks Andy! Only took you a year and a half to answer  : victory:



Typical timekeeping for me really.....


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