# Short documentary on private primate ownership



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

This is a short documentary on private primate ownership issues, made shortly after the recent BBC reports.

https://vimeo.com/42828169


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

What is really annoying is the lady with the marmoset managed to locate a marmoset on the internet,but not be able to find care of marmosets!
Also all the authorities the reporter rang about having a capuchin,had never had enquiries before.
Obviously all DWAL monkeys are regulated,so primarily we are talking about marmosets.


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## philipniceguy (Mar 31, 2008)

Fix the DWAL so its far and works then add ALL monkeys on it

clearly the main issue is the LA not being trained in there own job roles and carrying out the law on DWAL I had the same problem with mine regarding the DWAL (not monkeys) but not 1 person had even heard of the licence it was only when I contacted the top person that they even contacted me, but once the correct person was on to it they was very good. It was however almost impossible to get hold of anyone with knowledge on it VIA the customer phone people. SO I 100% agree the law needs sorting out so maybe only 1 select group of "far" well knowledgable people issue the licence out. With the fee (not high or will make people go underground like pit bulls) fixed for all no matter what DWA you keep, and if a vet is needed the cost of vet should be including in this price so no vet can charge crazy prices.


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## George_Millett (Feb 26, 2009)

How long ago was it made? AS weren't they taken off the schedule in the last round of changes?


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## Disillusioned (Jan 3, 2012)

Aww bet that poor marmoset will be sold yet again to someone who has no knowledge of how to care for him properly, then he will bite, and be sold on. Lets hope thats not the case for the little guy


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

That first woman was absolutely disgraceful, living in a parrot ca.ge in the living room with no social life. This is exactly what we need to combat and as Chris so eloquently put it, its the enforcement of legislation that's required.

Chris, I am going to cross post this over the the BEMA reps for further discussion, primates are obviously a hot topic of discussion, but also a very sensitive area.

I certainly hope a ban doesn't come to fruition as it won't help. But the dwa certainly needs sorting, and in my view standardizing across the nation.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

As discussed and stated before.
Control on internet sales is needed so as there is a bit of control to prevent the ones selling and breeding to earn a buck.
Or as they all state to keep there hobby going.
Buy a goldfish,
And as also stated before forums can be as bad,,

Yes DWA needs better control but that will have no effect on marms and tams etc.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Ludicrous.

The authorities are not capable of regulating primate keeping. 

Primate keepers must regulate themselves or be banned out of sheer ignorance because some MP believes it to be the easiest and only option.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Proper primate keepers do regulate themselves.
Dont ad on internett or forums..

Its the minority in the limelight from net sales.

Money being thrre concern..
Look at commons as income of 1000 every six month.
Some even more.

Ban net sales.
Or monitor.

But theres mixed views on this.
Mostly from those who dont keep.
And are worried about future exotic sales.
Which is understandable.

Its only now that even this forum has diff attidude to sales.
But check back past history...


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Do you honestly believe that a ban on Internet sales would drastically improve the situation for primate keepers?

I can certainly think of a couple of points in favour, including:

a) the reams of scammers advertising child substitutes would not be able to operate at all if primate ads were banned on the net
b) the lady from Birmingham in the video would never have bought her marmoset. The same could be said for many many others who found it easy to buy over the Internet without doing much research or first finding a mentor.

But the question is - would a ban on Internet sales TRULY have a big enough positive effect?
Would breeders think twice about trying to make a quick buck out of primates if they COULD NOT advertise on the Internet?

Other question is - who could regulate the websites who allow primate adverts??


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Pouchie said:


> Do you honestly believe that a ban on Internet sales would drastically improve the situation for primate keepers?
> 
> I can certainly think of a couple of points in favour, including:
> 
> ...


I know its rather cynical but I think unscrupulous sellers would always find a way.. and are ALL online ads really from 'bad' keepers/breeders? 

Personally I think education is key - getting information into the public domain about the correct way to care for primates, and what damage incorrect care (like lack of socialisation) can do. Far from attracting people to primate ownership, surely most would be put off by the expense and sheer amount of hard work. Also, it would turn the spotlight onto the bad keepers, and maybe their friends and family - who previously thought it was cool that they had a monkey in the living room - would give them a blinkin good ear bashing!


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Its what they are stemming to acieve.
Its already being looked into.

Monitor would be enough.

All keepers i know dont use the net for buying or selling.

It would have an effect on that type of keeper looking for quick cash.

They dont bother about the welfare of there animals.
Its those that are in the limelight.
Not private keepers.

They remain as it states.PRIVATE
With all the bad press etc maybe people can understand why.

Rather than bad mouthing the privacy...

I guess i look on it diff from most.
As primates are my thing...

But these internet buyers still apear and ask the same old.
And the answers are there caroline.
They just dont look...

Its thrre animals that suffer and of coarse thrre pocket.
One on ebay a month or so ago.
Free with parrot cage.

Hard to stop.
But without net
Thrre areas would be limited.

Just my op..lol


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

5plusmany said:


> I know its rather cynical but I think unscrupulous sellers would always find a way.. and are ALL online ads really from 'bad' keepers/breeders?
> 
> Personally I think education is key - getting information into the public domain about the correct way to care for primates, and what damage incorrect care (like lack of socialisation) can do. Far from attracting people to primate ownership, surely most would be put off by the expense and sheer amount of hard work. Also, it would turn the spotlight onto the bad keepers, and maybe their friends and family - who previously thought it was cool that they had a monkey in the living room - would give them a blinkin good ear bashing!


Its easy to spot.
Babys for sale.etc etc
Ready to go once weaned.

Probably not all are bad.
Hence monitoring...

But as i said.
My passion and could debate all night.
The circle of good keepers is very big.
I have friends all over the place.
Diff countries etc.

They do help others.
But never by selling with a care sheet


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

In my opinion, the only way to truly ensure the correct welfare and safety of primates would be a primate license, or adding all to dwa.

At least then there is a huge effort to obtain primates and vets will insist on social groups in correct environments rather than the parrot cage scenario.

I don't think internet sale bans would work or be useful.

If carried out properly, people could purchase primates from all over, extending the genetic diversity of a population. But breeders would be forced in to checking licenses, registering the sales, etc.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

All pyblicised cases are intrrnrt sales.
Dwa waste of time..

Weve all discussed at leanghth and only diff opinions are non keeprrs.
Or spare room or cage keepers


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

I would agree with a primate licence or adding to dwa, if the current system weren't so flawed.
And yes, it's easy to have an opinion as an 'outsider' which may not be a completely informed one, but as you say Peter that circle of good keepers is also pretty secretive. Which is totally understandable but makes it difficult for others to help..


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

Fair point about the system being flawed, the dwa license is very poorly run so I guess the government and councils could easily screw up a primate license.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

We do realise this is an archive doc.
Old news.

Stated before ban wont hapn in my lifetime.
And i disagree about private having an affect.

It works and ee can know none of us are part of the wrong circle.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

5plusmany said:


> I would agree with a primate licence or adding to dwa, if the current system weren't so flawed.
> And yes, it's easy to have an opinion as an 'outsider' which may not be a completely informed one, but as you say Peter that circle of good keepers is also pretty secretive. Which is totally understandable but makes it difficult for others to help..


Yip
But the helps needed to stop bad publicity.
Which 100% comes from internet sales.

And its old news all the time from archives.

I have animals here from rspca.
More recent but they do bother about welfare.

Theres suported people down south.
Rspca involvement.
They sell and ad weaned babys with cage..

Big problem straight awsy..


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

It may be old news but the debate goes on.
Sheryll Murray's bill collapsed but there is already an MP lined up to bring up the bill again. I don't see this going away.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Yip
> But the helps needed to stop bad publicity.
> Which 100% comes from internet sales.
> 
> ...


Sorry, are you saying that people who rehome for RSPCA are selling on with babies in cages?


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

Whether or not its old news, the topic needs to be covered. It won't take much for someone to bring a ban up again when we are unprepared for it.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Indeed, the bill will be put forward again before the end of the year by another MP, who Sheryll's office have refused to name as yet.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Yea same bill tried time aftrr time..
Like i said..
Wont hsppen.
Tried tested new blood.
Alot of sanctuarys are private.
Including monkey world..

Sat in on one said debate...
No chance.
There are more on our side than you think.

But they do think there needs to be changes made.
Passing too and fro and sales is one of there objectives.

Maybe you think im ranting but its not the case...


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

I'm glad you are so assured that a ban is impossible, I certainly hope you are right. But people will try, and he community needs to be able to answer the questions as to why it wont be right to ban.

Incidentally, I always thought there was bad blood between the private keepers and the likes of monkey world?

Whether a ban is on the cards or not though, there is a big change due for the primate world. To ensure the welfare of each primate, there must be a crackdown on the dubious keepers, and that must come from within the community, as we cannot rely on the government to regulate it properly and effectively.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Tarron said:


> Whether a ban is on the cards or not though, there is a big change due for the primate world. To ensure the welfare of each primate, there must be a crackdown on the dubious keepers, and that must come from within the community, as we cannot rely on the government to regulate it properly and effectively.


 
This paragraph sums up the whole debate as far as I am concerned.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Couldnt agree more.
Id personally lock them up to a life if solitude and missery.
Like they do to there animals and offspring..
But i feel strongly as its my thing...

If it ever came there any many that would unite.
There are more goid than bad...

But enjoyed discussion...


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Peter, get your ass over to BEMA & join! :whip:


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Im happy how i am mate.
Took neil along time to get me on these.
Not for me mate.
But good luck with it and all the future...


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## kiania (Feb 19, 2011)

Am I the only one that noticed the somewhat large error in that video? Fairly sure those aren't spider monkeys at 3:45! Or at least, they look nothing like the spider monkeys I've worked with, and a heck of a lot like all the many squirrel monkeys I've had the pleasure of the company of.

When such obvious errors appear in any media, it makes you question the rest. Glad primates aren't on the immediate agenda for being un-allowed for pets, but it is a shame the local authorities aren't educating themselves with regards to DWALs, if only to give themselves ammunition to stop the appalling treatment of some privately kept primates


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## elmthesofties (Aug 24, 2012)

kiania said:


> Am I the only one that noticed the somewhat large error in that video? Fairly sure those aren't spider monkeys at 3:45! Or at least, they look nothing like the spider monkeys I've worked with, and a heck of a lot like all the many squirrel monkeys I've had the pleasure of the company of.
> 
> When such obvious errors appear in any media, it makes you question the rest. Glad primates aren't on the immediate agenda for being un-allowed for pets, but it is a shame the local authorities aren't educating themselves with regards to DWALs, if only to give themselves ammunition to stop the appalling treatment of some privately kept primates


Yeah, it does look much more like a squirrel monkey to me.
I remember that doc a while ago that was supposed to 'educate' people about 'dangerous dog breeds'. They said that there was a theory that training plays a bigger part in the behaviour of the dog than genetics. A THEORY?!
They also showed a picture of some sort of brindle mastiff when there was supposed to be a picture of a dogo argentino. I mean... they could have at least got the colour right. ¬_¬

It does make me wonder sometimes whether the people who are educating us are educated in the first place. From what I can remember, there was a fantastic piece of wisdom spoken by a yokel in the Simpsons: "The little 'uns get taught by the bigger ones, and I teach the bigger ones. But no one ever taught me so the whole thing is an act of futility". That sums up some things in life pretty well, I think.
blargh sorry for going off topic. >.<


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## kiania (Feb 19, 2011)

elmthesofties said:


> Yeah, it does look much more like a squirrel monkey to me.


It lacks the 'spidery' appearance for a start, you know, the extendo-arms (my favourite spider monkey's favourite game was "Come closer, come closer, HA got you with my go-go-gadget extendo-arms!" with stealing my hat  )



elmthesofties said:


> I remember that doc a while ago that was supposed to 'educate' people about 'dangerous dog breeds'. They said that there was a theory that training plays a bigger part in the behaviour of the dog than genetics. A THEORY?!


Meh, another easily refused statement that only serves to make them look stupid. There was a TV programme (think it was Inside Outside, or similar) that looked at african pygmy hedgehogs who came to one of the hog shows. I spent a good 15 minutes chatting to the presenter, letting her cuddle my extremely placid hog, feed it mealworms, and talking about the benefits of a good breeder (none of that appeared, thank god - I am not made for TV  ). When it came out, a lot of hog people watched it, eager to see good breeders being promoted as the wise choice - instead we had a european hedgehog idiot saying they make terrible pets, and should live outside in the snow...and the presenter complaining about the hogs (his rescued ones) being 'spikey' and "Oooh, it bit me" while she was wearing leather gloves. A bit of a 'no @!#? sherlock!' moment for hog keepers. It was just really upsetting as they'd played the good breeders down, and how not to keep hogs up - I'm all for thinking a lot of hog keepers aren't doing it right (keeping them in cages I wouldn't keep a syrian hamster at 1/3rd of the size, with no live insects, for starters!), but keeping them in the garden with straw? Yick!

Now I've gone off topic too


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