# Protests against Lush/APA Chameleon Campaign



## Sephiroth

Don't know how many people are up for this. 

I can either do York on Saturday or Leeds on Sunday... I can print off a hundred or so flyers to bring as well...

Anyone else want to do their local this weekend? Would be good to have a united front :mrgreen:

For those who don't know what I'm on about, this is for Lush's Chameleon Campaign they are doing for the APA. Basically they have published a load of slander against us reptile keepers and breeders in their magazine, online, and in store. All proceeds from their Chameleon bath bomb will be going towards the APA's war on reptile keeping :devil:

A Far Cry from Nature

:bash:


----------



## paulds

As per the other post, I will be at Maidstone on Saturday :2thumb:


----------



## Sephiroth

I can do either Leeds or York this Saturday if anyone wants to join the fun!


----------



## john09

Just read the webpage, and what a load of :censor:!!
They seem to forget or just ignore the fact that the majority of animals now in the UK market are Captive bred, and raised. This could have serious implications on us reptile keepers, im all up for needing liscences to keep them if thats what needs to be done, but the fact they are trying to stop it alltogether, its just wrong! :devil:


----------



## Freakinfreak

I would love to come but couldn't, do you have any kind of uniformed plan? Or you just gonna go in guns blazing?


----------



## Sephiroth

I'm going to try putting a flier together tonight and see what you guys think... we have time to edit it if needed.

Then go in with all guns blazing :devil: this weekend, preferably saturday.

but keep it peaceful eace: We aren't going to get Lush to change their minds by doing this, but hopefully we can undo some of the damage they are doing by educating a few of their customers.

If we can get a few people together for one shop, then there is also the possibility of some media coverage.

then let ASA deal with Lush directly. But ASA are asking us for photos of the posters in the shops as well as their printed material, so this can be used as a reconnaissance mission as well : victory:


----------



## CollaredLizardGal

Could do with trying to get Reptile stores involved! 
I am going to have a look to see if anyone is doing anything at our local one. I think it is disgraceful, I may not be able to get to the actual protests but I will indeed spread the word!


----------



## Sephiroth

I'm from Paws for Thought so would prefer to do the Leeds one this weekend, but if York seems more likely I might get in touch with Leaping Lizards and see if they can help arrange anything.


----------



## john09

I wont be able to get to any of the protests however i will definately try my hardest to help! I have sent the publisher of the article a message stating how innacurate the article is, not sure whether it will make any difference however i had to get my views across because this could be potentially devistating to us reptile keepers.


----------



## Chris Newman

On BBC Radio Sheffield today at around Midday I there is going to be a debate between myself and Tom Langton, scientific expert for the Animal Protection Agency, over the campaign supported by Lush. As I understand it people will be able to phone in and have their say. I assume this will be available to listen to on the web?


----------



## Haggles

i think it might kick out their fire if we ask what zoological/herpetalogoical qualifactions that the author of this publication has to be making such bold and outlandish claims, then compare this with the thoughts of genuine herpetologists rather than some hippy who decides to take their own ideaologies with more conviction than cold hard facts.

(I'm allowed to call them stupid hippies im a vegetarian who sold his car to stop contributing to buggering up the enviroment) :lol2:


----------



## Ribbens

To listen on Radio Sheffield.. BBC - Sheffield & South Yorkshire - South Yorkshire listen live button 
Good luck Chris


----------



## Alfonzo

Has it already been on the radio? I have it on now...boogyin to some retro disco


----------



## Ribbens

its 12.14 and its about to start you can email the program [email protected] give your thoughts


----------



## David L

can some one give us play by play commentary?


please?


----------



## Freakinfreak

David L said:


> can some one give us play by play commentary?
> 
> 
> please?


The other guy was on saying it's not good to keep them as the information about them is limited. Now Chris is on and is explaining how easy the reptiles are to keep and is explaining how there are more books on reptiles than cats. He's also saying how RSPCA are bringing 90% less prosecutions on reptiles than dogs and saying that is APA are really concerned then they would do something about the dogs and not reptiles.


----------



## Freakinfreak

Other guy saying that reptiles are less obvious than dogs barking in a back yard. The radio dude said if everyone knows how to look after them surely it's fine to keep them, now the other bloke is saying what a silly things to say considering 90% of the animals are dying in the first year. He's saying that there's a large number dying from neglect.

Chris is sayiiiiing... 95% reptiles sold are bred in captivity.


----------



## Freakinfreak

Chris is saying they did a study on reptiles, saying it's easier to keep them and that they're meeting all the requirements and that it could be easier to keep them than some breeds of dogs, that's from scientific tests etc.

They rehome 25, 000 dogs a year, less than 1000 reptiles a year.

Tom is saying about salmonella, he said it's more to do with animal rights than animal welfare. He says the trade has to stop and saying people shouldn't be trying to buy an animal.

End of conversation!


----------



## Sephiroth

OMG! Chris you totally WIN!

*round of applause*


----------



## Marinam2

Oh dear thats sad. Its true that a vast number of animals die during export/import its not just reptiles. However such a massive percentage of reptiles in the pet trade are all CB shop purchases or self bred private sales.

They don't seem to to mention that.


----------



## Ribbens

The guy contradicted himself over and over again.. classically he first said 90% of reptiles die in the first year and then said there was a problem that some reptiles lived for 20 years or more as they were so robust ? LOL damned if you do damned if you dont !


----------



## Haggles

well if toms arguement is "that dosn't add up" and not rebuting any actual issue i think that speaks for itself, he obviously is misinformed and has a terribly old fashioned view on the reptile industry which is now thankfully behind us (im refering to the mass wild capture and shipping of african species of tortoise many years ago)

I've gotta thank you chris for flying the flag for all of us sensible keepers and appluad your use of facts and statistics, in my opinion he was left without a leg to stand on other than saying "its bad stop it" with no evidence or even basic knowledge of the animals he is discussing (thats certainly how he presented his arguement at least).

a job well done :2thumb:


----------



## bothrops

Just listened to the last few minutes.

Chris - awesome job

Tom - blatently doesn't have anything of substance and his only response to all of Chris's irrefutable, publically avialable, correct statistics was 'it just doesn't add up - this has to stop'....he even tried to use child abuse and car mechanics as analogies! (something about child abuse happens behind closed doors, so implying that reptile keeping does too and when told that there is a plethora of information that exists to inform how to look after these species he said 'yeah, if everyone knew how to fix a car they..pause, erm, pause..they wouldn't break down'.....Im mean really, fi that's the best they can do, I don't think we have much to worry about.

Just waiting the hear the call ins/texts....


----------



## bothrops

is the guy on at the moment on here? He's pretty good!


----------



## Alfonzo

bothrops said:


> is the guy on at the moment on here? He's pretty good!


Ahem...that were me


----------



## bothrops

Alfonzo said:


> Ahem...that were me


Really? Fair play if it was..as pointed out on the other thread, the ONLY thing would have been to make it clear the rodents would be bought frozen...many would assume otherwise..but of course hindsight is a great thing...


all I can say at the moment is there are more people talking about old houses than anti reptiles...lets see if that lasts..


----------



## Alfonzo

bothrops said:


> Really? Fair play if it was..as pointed out on the other thread, the ONLY thing would have been to make it clear the rodents would be bought frozen...many would assume otherwise..but of course hindsight is a great thing...
> 
> 
> all I can say at the moment is there are more people talking about old houses than anti reptiles...lets see if that lasts..


Sh*t! didn't think about that...was well nervous, not been braodcast on radio before!


----------



## Sephiroth

Alfonzo said:


> Sh*t! didn't think about that...was well nervous, not been braodcast on radio before!


You did well :2thumb:

(better than my first time on radio!)


----------



## Ribbens

Well done Alex.. you did a spendid job. Dont worry about the rodent thing, the people who would raise an eyebrow would do so anyway regardless of what you said. 

Sadly the antis are blind and wont listen to reason we have seen that time and time again. Our only defense against them , the noisy minority, is just our shear numbers ! but it is really important over the next few years the reptile keeping community stick together and dont become complacent or apathetic.


----------



## Alfonzo

Sephiroth said:


> You did well :2thumb:
> 
> (better than my first time on radio!)





Ribbens said:


> Well done Alex.. you did a spendid job. Dont worry about the rodent thing, the people who would raise an eyebrow would do so anyway regardless of what you said.
> 
> Sadly the antis are blind and wont listen to reason we have seen that time and time again. Our only defense against them , the noisy minority, is just our shear numbers ! but it is really important over the next few years the reptile keeping community stick together and dont become complacent or apathetic.


Thanks guys...not gonna listen to it though


----------



## bothrops

Alfonzo said:


> Sh*t! didn't think about that...was well nervous, not been braodcast on radio before!


Really no need to worry - you did REALLY well!:2thumb: 

Unfortunately, as has been said, these sorts of people aren't interested in facts or the truth, all they care about is their own misguided ideals and think that if they shout loud enough everyone will agree with them. Unfortunately in this day and age, many members of the public will happily listen to those that shout loudest rather than the truth....

I think this sums up the sort of people we are dealing with...

YouTube - ‪Penn And Teller Get Hippies To Sign Water Banning Petition‬‎

Cheers

Andy


----------



## GeckoD

bothrops said:


> Really no need to worry - you did REALLY well!:2thumb:
> 
> Unfortunately, as has been said, these sorts of people aren't interested in facts or the truth, all they care about is their own misguided ideals and think that if they shout loud enough everyone will agree with them. Unfortunately in this day and age, many members of the public will happily listen to those that shout loudest rather than the truth....
> 
> I think this sums up the sort of people we are dealing with...
> 
> YouTube - ‪Penn And Teller Get Hippies To Sign Water Banning Petition‬‎
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andy


Perfect example!!!


----------



## Chris Newman

Alfonzo said:


> Sh*t! didn't think about that...was well nervous, not been braodcast on radio before!


You did extremely well, it’s much, much hard than people think to do these kinds of things – well done.


----------



## Alfonzo

bothrops said:


> Really no need to worry - you did REALLY well!:2thumb:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andy


Thanks Andy!!



Chris Newman said:


> You did extremely well, it’s much, much hard than people think to do these kinds of things – well done.


Cheers Chris, may I say the same to your good self. Are you satisfied with how it went, and what are your views on Mr Langtons arguments?


----------



## manda88

How do they know that 90% of reptiles die in the first year? Surely if that was the case then pretty much nobody would have an animal over the age of a few months old, whereas I know for a fact that people on here have animals at over 10 and 20 and even 30 years of age! I'm not sure if frogs count as reptiles, but I have ten of them, come back to me in March next year and we'll see if I've only got one left, THEN I'll believe that statement!


----------



## Chris Newman

Alfonzo said:


> Cheers Chris, may I say the same to your good self. Are you satisfied with how it went, and what are your views on Mr Langtons arguments?


Mine was pretty poor, I find it quite difficult to do these kinds of things. How did it go overall, well, I have to say that I am deeply disappointed that someone like Tom Langton has sold his sole to the likes of the Animal Protection Agency, he is, or at least was once a respected herpetologists. What has possessed him to teem up with the APA I have no idea, I guess money talks. I think it was quite clear he didn’t have a handle on the situation, and simply regurgitate rubbish fed to him by Elaine. His attempt to defend his stance by bringing up child abuse demonstrates to me a complete lack of ethics. Overall I don’t think he has done himself any favours, but that is his choose.


----------



## Alfonzo

Chris Newman said:


> Mine was pretty poor, I find it quite difficult to do these kinds of things. How did it go overall, well, I have to say that I am deeply disappointed that someone like Tom Langton has sold his sole to the likes of the Animal Protection Agency, he is, or at least was once a respected herpetologists. What has possessed him to teem up with the APA I have no idea, I guess money talks. I think it was quite clear he didn’t have a handle on the situation, and simply regurgitate rubbish fed to him by Elaine. His attempt to defend his stance by bringing up child abuse demonstrates to me a complete lack of ethics. Overall I don’t think he has done himself any favours, but that is his choose.



I did not know that about Tom Langton - considering that, I wonder if perhaps he didn't have much conviction in what he was saying. 
His arguments seemed to lack any punch to me. He didn't bring anything solid to the table in terms of evidence by the sounds of it. I think you did fine...I felt a bit like I feel in job interviews, nervous for no reason lol. I understand these agencies may be well meaning, but they seem largely ignorant and single minded...and blind/intolerant of other viewpoints. I don't feel that our side has suffered from todays show for sure, theirs may have however.


----------



## Graham

Lush/APA seem to be doing their best to alienate the very people who'd otherwise be most likely to support them, ie us, the ones who actually keep, understand, and care about these animals!

Most herp keepers I know are against the mass trade in WC reptiles, and would go out of their way to obtain their animals from more ethical sources, most keep their animals in excellent conditions, and why wouldn't they, I mean who wants to spend a lot of money on an animal just to watch it die from neglect?

The average member of the public listening to their arguments will either a) not care, or b) think "Oh poor things" and then do nothing, very few will actively do anything about it.

We on the other hand might just get off our arses and do something, but not if people like Lush/APA tarnish us all with the same brush, they may be prepared to shoot themselves in the foot but I don't think we would!


----------



## Chris Newman

Alfonzo said:


> I did not know that about Tom Langton - considering that, I wonder if perhaps he didn't have much conviction in what he was saying.
> His arguments seemed to lack any punch to me. He didn't bring anything solid to the table in terms of evidence by the sounds of it. I think you did fine...I felt a bit like I feel in job interviews, nervous for no reason lol. I understand these agencies may be well meaning, but they seem largely ignorant and single minded...and blind/intolerant of other viewpoints. I don't feel that our side has suffered from todays show for sure, theirs may have however.


Tom Langton has his own business - Herpetofauna Consultants International http://herpecology.co.uk/ Details about him from the website:

STAFF *Tom Langton* is HCIs Managing Director. An ecologist with extensive field experience in habitat management, herpetofauna and other vertebrates, he coordinates HCI from the Triton House Head Office in Suffolk.

It is great surprise to me that he would sell himself to the likes of the Animal Protection Agency, but then I guess everyone has to make a living!


----------



## Khaos

Speaking as someone who's worked extensively in the media, journalism and PR industries, I can state with some authority that Mr Langton's performance was awful.

Someone has clearly tried to media train Tom - hence his use of neuro-linguistics to try and disassemble Chris' very well constructed argument. He dropped into key phrases, disagreeable topics (child abuse) and repetition ('doesn't add up'). 

Luckily it came across pretty badly. Cheap parlour tricks (think of it as a poor man's version of the The Force) pale in the face of a respectable argument, a confident tone and an argument which completely and irrefutably takes apart that of your opponant.

Chris, keep your head held hight, you did a bang-up job and didn't come across like a smarmy, PR-obsessed toe-rag. That tends to ring true with the lsitening public.

You have done, and continue to do, damned good work for our hobby, trade, industry and passion. Good show.


----------



## Chris Newman

Khaos said:


> Speaking as someone who's worked extensively in the media, journalism and PR industries, I can state with some authority that Mr Langton's performance was awful.
> 
> Someone has clearly tried to media train Tom - hence his use of neuro-linguistics to try and disassemble Chris' very well constructed argument. He dropped into key phrases, disagreeable topics (child abuse) and repetition ('doesn't add up').
> 
> Luckily it came across pretty badly. Cheap parlour tricks (think of it as a poor man's version of the The Force) pale in the face of a respectable argument, a confident tone and an argument which completely and irrefutably takes apart that of your opponant.
> 
> Chris, keep your head held hight, you did a bang-up job and didn't come across like a smarmy, PR-obsessed toe-rag. That tends to ring true with the lsitening public.
> 
> You have done, and continue to do, damned good work for our hobby, trade, industry and passion. Good show.


:blush:


----------



## Skorps

I dont suppose that there is ANY chance that there is an i-player type thing so I could hear the program?

xXx


----------



## bothrops

Khaos said:


> Speaking as someone who's worked extensively in the media, journalism and PR industries, I can state with some authority that Mr Langton's performance was awful.
> 
> Someone has clearly tried to media train Tom - hence his use of neuro-linguistics to try and disassemble Chris' very well constructed argument. He dropped into key phrases, disagreeable topics (child abuse) and repetition ('doesn't add up').
> 
> Luckily it came across pretty badly. Cheap parlour tricks (think of it as a poor man's version of the The Force) pale in the face of a respectable argument, a confident tone and an argument which completely and irrefutably takes apart that of your opponant.
> 
> Chris, keep your head held hight, you did a bang-up job and didn't come across like a smarmy, PR-obsessed toe-rag. That tends to ring true with the lsitening public.
> 
> You have done, and continue to do, damned good work for our hobby, trade, industry and passion. Good show.


HEAR HEAR!:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


----------



## Khaos

Skorps said:


> I dont suppose that there is ANY chance that there is an i-player type thing so I could hear the program?
> 
> xXx


But of course.

BBC iPlayer - Rony Robinson: 11/08/2010


----------



## Graham

How far into the program is the bit we want?


----------



## SleepyD

Graham said:


> How far into the program is the bit we want?


move the counter to 2:17:07 which should bring you in right just before the chat starts


----------



## Yazyaz1

They have a petition in our local lush to stop the reptile show in havant leisure centre...


----------



## Zak

http://www.lush.co.uk/custom/youtube/apa-video.php?height=419&width=681

'Beautiful and emotive' film that APA and Lush have released. Id love to know the location and dates of the filmings used, quite a few look European and American to me.


----------



## Sephiroth

ok, here is the first draft for the flier... I can just fit it all on an A4 sheet.

It is basically a mash up of Chris's posts and a bit of my own with a bit of inspiration from Rachael Simpsons on the facebook forum 


> The Truth
> About Reptiles
> 
> 
> *Please Think Twice Before Buying *
> *Lush's Chameleon Bomb*
> 
> Lush and APA (the Animal Protection Agency, a private company and *NOT* a charity) have recently began a smear campaign against reptile keepers entitled “I'm a Chameleon! Get Me Out Of Here!”. In their media, both online and in store, Lush are posting information given to them by the APA as facts when in fact they are gross exaggerations, and in some cases, just plain lies. Lush are currently under investigation by the Advertising Standards Authority due to this campaign, which is the second time in three months for Lush.
> 
> Please read below for the truth on reptile keeping that has been put together by the Federation of British Herpetologists and the reptile keeping community.
> 
> In 2010 more than 50% of households in the UK keep pets, fish being the most numerical then cats, with dogs and reptiles the third most common. There are 6 million dogs kept as pets in the UK and over 5 million reptiles.
> 
> Lush and the APA claim _“Six million reptiles were imported into the EU last year and almost 200,000 arrived in Britain from outside of the EU.” _These figures are inaccurate and misleading, as numbers imported were significantly lower.
> 
> *In fact, 90% of reptiles in the *
> *pet trade today are bred in captivity, *
> *not wild collected*
> 
> Even the WWF acknowledges the importance of keeping reptiles. There are many species of reptile kept as pets today that are now extinct in the wild and many more critically endangered due to *habitat destruction*, not the pet trade. If it wasn't for the captive breeding of these reptiles, they would be gone forever. Many other species are nearing extinction, but fortunately captive breeding will ensure that this will never happen. Would "animal-loving" Lush really rather see these animals extinct than being cared for properly in captivity? Keeping exotics as pets also draws attention to the plight of these animals. Without all the reptile keepers and enthusiasts out there, the outlook for all reptiles would be far more bleak.
> 
> Lush and the APA further claim that information of reptile husbandry isn't easily available and is hidden deep within scientific texts that are inaccessible to the general public.
> 
> In truth there is a plethora of information concerning reptile care, indeed as early as 1897 the Reverend George Bateman wrote a book entitled The Vivarium. This was the first English book published on how to keep and breed reptiles in captivity but the first book on reptile care was actually published in Europe by Johann Matthaus Bechstein way back in 1797.
> 
> Pet Marketing Services is the largest distributor of books on companion animals in the country and their catalogue lists: 104 titles on horses, 136 on cats, and *200 on reptiles.*
> 
> Today there is probably more information published on reptilian husbandry that just about any other companion animal.
> 
> “*Most Wild Caught Reptiles Die *
> *Within The First Year.”** WRONG!*
> 
> It is completely untrue that most reptiles die in their first year in captivity (as claimed by Lush and APA). The truth is that reptiles kept in captivity are likely to live twice as long as their wild counterparts.
> 
> APA claim to advise the government on these issues, however this is also untrue. However, the Companion Animal Welfare Council does. CAWC is a scientific body that is the formal advisor to government on animal welfare issues. Here is a quote from them regarding reptile husbandry:
> 
> “*It may be easier to keep some non-domesticated species to high welfare standards than some that are domesticated. Thus, meeting all the requirements (space, dietary, social, thermal, and so on) of a small, hardy, reptile may be more readily achievable for many people than adequately fulfilling all the needs of some breeds of dog.”*
> 
> Reptiles are increasingly the choice of informed and responsible pet keeper as they are more environmentally friendly that cats or dogs, and are less destructive to native wildlife or injurious to people. According the Health Surveillance System reptiles are the second safest pets, just behind tropical fish.
> 
> To further emphasise the fact that reptiles tend to be chosen by informed and responsible keepers is the fact that according to RSPCA data 90% less prosecutions are bought against reptile keepers than other animals, such as dogs. Rehoming and unwanted animals are also less problematic, and in 2003 the RSPCA rehomed 25,000 dogs but less than 1,000 reptiles.




When formatted properly it looks like this:





What do you think? Things to add, things to take away?


----------



## Zak

Sephiroth said:


> ok, here is the first draft for the flier... I can just fit it all on an A4 sheet.
> 
> It is basically a mash up of Chris's posts and a bit of my own with a bit of inspiration from Rachael Simpsons on the facebook forum
> 
> 
> When formatted properly it looks like this:
> 
> 
> http://img245.imageshack.us/i/truthaboutreptiles.jpg/image
> 
> 
> What do you think? Things to add, things to take away?



First thought is that passerby will see that amount of text, take your flier politely and bin it because it contains way too much info. 

Why not put key points ie like you have with highlighted points and then a website address which can contain the majority of information.


----------



## Chris Newman

Very, very well done, congratulations…..


----------



## Stoats

I've just listened to the programme on iPlayer, great performances from both Chris Newman and Alex. The APA scientific advisor didn't make a good impression at all.

Sephiroth:
The leaflet looks very good, just the right sort of thing, I should have though. Just a thoughts:

I may be wrong, but isn't the APA actually a charity? They claim to be on their website - I wouldn't have thought even they would have the nerve to lie so barefacedly about that!

Penultimate paragraph:
"Reptiles are increasingly the choice of informed and responsible pet keeper as they are more environmentally friendly *that *cats or dogs"
Should be "than". 

Sorry if I sound at all critical - I don't mean to, it is an excellent flyer, should do the job very nicely!


----------



## excession

Great flyer. 

I think its not such a bad idea to have a lot of text, gives people factual information to counter the claims by the APA.

I think you came over very well in the radio discussion Chris, nicely done! 

Also the chap who called in after you were one did really well too, nice one guys!


----------



## Sephiroth

Stoats said:


> I've just listened to the programme on iPlayer, great performances from both Chris Newman and Alex. The APA scientific advisor didn't make a good impression at all.
> 
> Sephiroth:
> The leaflet looks very good, just the right sort of thing, I should have though. Just a thoughts:
> 
> I may be wrong, but isn't the APA actually a charity? They claim to be on their website - I wouldn't have thought even they would have the nerve to lie so barefacedly about that!
> 
> Penultimate paragraph:
> "Reptiles are increasingly the choice of informed and responsible pet keeper as they are more environmentally friendly *that *cats or dogs"
> Should be "than".
> 
> Sorry if I sound at all critical - I don't mean to, it is an excellent flyer, should do the job very nicely!


 They do have a charity in their name as well (the APA Foundation which doesn't really do anything) but because of the regulations regarding charities in the uk, they can't register the APA Ltd as a charity because they do not comply with those regulations. APA Ltd is what they use for their campaign against reptile keepers.

and thanks! I've noticed a few other typos as well :blush:

@Chris - Glad you like it! Thanks for the content!


----------



## Stoats

Sephiroth said:


> They do have a charity in their name as well (the APA Foundation which doesn't really do anything) but because of the regulations regarding charities in the uk, they can't register the APA Ltd as a charity because they do not comply with those regulations. APA Ltd is what they use for their campaign against reptile keepers.
> 
> and thanks! I've noticed a few other typos as well :blush:
> 
> @Chris - Glad you like it! Thanks for the content!


Ah, thanks for explaining - I was just checking, and I was indeed looking at the foundation, not the limited company...


----------



## Chris Newman

Stoats said:


> I've just listened to the programme on iPlayer, great performances from both Chris Newman and Alex. The APA scientific advisor didn't make a good impression at all.
> 
> Sephiroth:
> The leaflet looks very good, just the right sort of thing, I should have though. Just a thoughts:
> 
> I may be wrong, but isn't the APA actually a charity? They claim to be on their website - I wouldn't have thought even they would have the nerve to lie so barefacedly about that!
> 
> Penultimate paragraph:
> "Reptiles are increasingly the choice of informed and responsible pet keeper as they are more environmentally friendly *that *cats or dogs"
> Should be "than".
> 
> Sorry if I sound at all critical - I don't mean to, it is an excellent flyer, should do the job very nicely!


The main business is the Animal Protection Agency Ltd, incorporated in 2004, this is where the bulk of the money is lodged. As a Limited company it’s up to the director to decide how to spend the money! Like several other Animal Rights business they have established a charitable arm in order to try and gain some credibility - The Animal Protection Agency Foundation, this is a charity, although to be fair its purpose as a charity is unclear. The charity was formed in 2007 and submitted its first accounts; its income is tiny less than 10k. In the Lush campaign it appears the money is destine to go to the business, not the charity, which is interesting!


----------



## Graham

Apart from a few spelling and grammar mistakes the flyer looks good, possibly a bit long?


----------



## Sephiroth

Graham said:


> Apart from a few spelling and grammar mistakes the flyer looks good, possibly a bit long?


I tried making it as short as I can though what would you suggest deleting?

there were alot of points I had to leave out like the part they say we are all "invariable inhumane"... grrrrr


----------



## Pete Q

Chris Newman said:


> :blush:


Chris, you done a great job, you had the facts and all he could do was say he didn't believe you figures, he had nothing and just sounded like an AR extremist the more he spoke.


----------



## Graham

> APA claim to advise the government on these issues, however this is also untrue


Any one of us could claim to be a government advisor, just write to a government minister advising them about something, they'll probably ignore you but technically you're a government advisor, not an official one of course but that's not what you're claiming to be!


----------



## Pete Q

Alfonzo said:


> Ahem...that were me


Well done, great job, new star is born.


----------



## Sephiroth

Graham said:


> Any one of us could claim to be a government advisor, just write to a government minister advising them about something, they'll probably ignore you but technically you're a government advisor, not an official one of course but that's not what you're claiming to be!


so perhaps change that to "this is misleading"?


----------



## Graham

Yes you could do.


----------



## Graham

> I tried making it as short as I can though what would you suggest deleting?


I'd cut the historical textbook references, they're not really relevant to information available today.

Change _began_ to _begun_ in paragraph one...

...fish being the most _numerous..._

_..._90% _fewer_ prosecutions...


----------



## RepBex

there website is stupid i wish there was somthing we could do in lincoln as their are a few keepers i am sure has anyone thought to write to newspapers ?


----------



## Sephiroth

ok, here's the second draft... I cut down on the historical texts, but even if I removed that part completely it would only save 4 lines...



> Lush and APA (the Animal Protection Agency, a private company and *NOT* a charity) have recently began a smear campaign against reptile keepers entitled “I'm a Chameleon! Get Me Out Of Here!”. In their media, both online and in store, Lush are posting information given to them by the APA as facts when in fact they are gross exaggerations, and in some cases, just plain lies. Lush are currently under investigation by the Advertising Standards Authority due to this campaign, which is the second time in three months for Lush.
> 
> 
> Please read below for the truth on reptile keeping that has been put together by the Federation of British Herpetologists and the reptile keeping community.
> 
> 
> In 2010 more than 50% of households in the UK keep pets, fish being the most numerous, then cats, with dogs and reptiles the third most common. There are 6 million dogs kept as pets in the UK and over 5 million reptiles.
> 
> 
> Lush and the APA claim _“Six million reptiles were imported into the EU last year and almost 200,000 arrived in Britain from outside of the EU.” _These figures are inaccurate and misleading, as numbers imported were significantly lower.
> 
> 
> *In fact, 90% of reptiles in the *
> *pet trade today are bred in captivity, *
> *not wild collected*
> 
> 
> Even the WWF acknowledges the importance of keeping reptiles. There are many species of reptile kept as pets today that are now extinct in the wild and many more critically endangered due to *habitat destruction*, not the pet trade. If it wasn't for the captive breeding of these reptiles, they would be gone forever. Many other species are nearing extinction, but fortunately captive breeding will ensure that this will never happen. Would "animal-loving" Lush really rather see these animals extinct than being cared for properly in captivity? Keeping exotics as pets also draws attention to the plight of these animals. Without all the reptile keepers and enthusiasts out there, the outlook for all reptiles would be far more bleak.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lush and the APA further claim that information of reptile husbandry isn't easily available and is hidden deep within scientific texts that are inaccessible to the general public.
> 
> 
> In truth there is a plethora of information concerning reptile care. The first book in English on keeping and breeding reptiles (The Vivarium) was published in 1897, though books in other languages were being published from as early as 1797.
> 
> 
> Pet Marketing Services is the largest distributor of books on companion animals in the country and their catalogue lists: 104 titles on horses, 136 on cats, and *200 on reptiles.*
> 
> 
> Today there is probably more information published on reptilian husbandry that just about any other companion animal.
> 
> 
> “*Most Wild Caught Reptiles Die *
> *Within The First Year.”** WRONG!*
> 
> 
> It is completely untrue that most reptiles die in their first year in captivity (as claimed by Lush and APA). The truth is that reptiles kept in captivity are likely to live twice as long as their wild counterparts.
> 
> 
> APA claim to advise the government on these issues though this is misleading. The Companion Animal Welfare Council does. CAWC is a scientific body that is the formal advisor to government on animal welfare issues. Here is a quote from them regarding reptile husbandry:
> 
> 
> “_*It may be easier to keep some non-domesticated species to high welfare standards than some that are domesticated. Thus, meeting all the requirements (space, dietary, social, thermal, and so on) of a small, hardy, reptile may be more readily achievable for many people than adequately fulfilling all the needs of some breeds of dog.”*_
> 
> 
> Reptiles are increasingly the choice of informed and responsible pet keeper as they are more environmentally friendly than cats or dogs, and are less destructive to native wildlife or injurious to people. According the Health Surveillance System reptiles are the second safest pets, just behind tropical fish.
> 
> To further emphasise the fact that reptiles tend to be chosen by informed and responsible keepers is the fact that, according to RSPCA data, 90% fewer prosecutions are bought against reptile keepers than other animals, such as dogs. Rehoming and unwanted animals are also less problematic, and in 2003 the RSPCA rehomed 25,000 dogs but less than 1,000 reptiles.


----------



## Sephiroth

and here's a screenshot of the formatted copy


----------



## Khaos

Sephiroth,

I'm a writer and journalist by trade. Would you mind giving me a chance to give it a once-over? I'll proof it, see if I can sub it down a little and present it in the most polished form we can? I admit I don't have the reptile-keeping knowledge of yourself and Chris, but I'd love to use what talent I have to make this the best possible counter-argument we can make against Lush and the APA.


----------



## Sephiroth

Khaos said:


> Sephiroth,
> 
> I'm a writer and journalist by trade. Would you mind giving me a chance to give it a once-over? I'll proof it, see if I can sub it down a little and present it in the most polished form we can? I admit I don't have the reptile-keeping knowledge of yourself and Chris, but I'd love to use what talent I have to make this the best possible counter-argument we can make against Lush and the APA.


Please feel free! :2thumb:


----------



## Sephiroth

I can upload the file if that helps... which format would be best for you?


----------



## RepBex

where will this be published ? it is very good 
i am so pleased that this is being fought against instead of people just takeing it on the chin


----------



## Khaos

Sephiroth said:


> I can upload the file if that helps... which format would be best for you?


Drop me an email in, ideally, Word or text format to [email protected] and I'll work my magic on it.

I'm sure I have some contacts and friends in the media who'd be very interested in this as a story...


----------



## Sephiroth

Khaos said:


> Drop me an email in, ideally, Word or text format to [email protected] and I'll work my magic on it.
> 
> I'm sure I have some contacts and friends in the media who'd be very interested in this as a story...


Will do! 

@RepBex - Glad you like it so far, though there are no plans to have it professionally published (at least not yet)... it's just a flier to be handed out outside Lush stores this weekend : victory:


----------



## Khaos

Sephiroth said:


> @RepBex - Glad you like it so far, though there are no plans to have it professionally published (at least not yet)... it's just a flier to be handed out outside Lush stores this weekend : victory:


You leave that part to me...


----------



## RepBex

Im sure the Lincoln echo would print it ..... 
i wish i could be at the protest type thing :bash:

good luck anyway


----------



## Sephiroth

You can!

Just print out a hundred copies and hand them out to Lush customers :no1:


----------



## David L

This is awesome....

You guys are a credit to the hobby, really...

I'll make sure I'll do my bit and hand out these outside the Sheffield Store.

Nice work! :no1:


----------



## paulds

Sephiroth said:


> You can!
> 
> Just print out a hundred copies and hand them out to Lush customers :no1:


 Very, very nice work on the flier bud, well done for getting things together so quickly.

Just a quick word of warning to anyone kind enough to protest, I was nearly spoken to by the police last night for going to the local Lush store and photographing their campaign pictures.

It would seem that some Lush stores have been subject to vandalism ( I hope not from anyone on here as this would be seriously counter productive). They asked me to delete the pics and wanted to know what I was planning on doing, I was honest and explained the situation, to which they were very fair but said that any disturbance would result in police intervention.

If we all make sure that we conduct ourselves well when we hand out the fliers all will be fine but we do need to behave as adverse publicity will only compound the situation. : victory:


----------



## Sephiroth

thanks for bringing it up. Looks like they're ready for us :whip:

It would be a good idea for anyone interested in taking action to have a glance over this pdf

How to Protest on the Right Side of the Law

i really don't believe the police had the right to make you delete those photos... did you manage to get any of their printed media?


----------



## Graham

They didn't have the right, not unless they were misusing anti-terrorism laws again, a photographer friend of mine fell foul of this in a London street last year.


----------



## Khaos

The police have no right to 1) make you show them your photos, 2) delete them, 3) take the camera from you or 4) make you tell them what you are doing or give them your details unless you have been arrested.

The police, especially City of London and the Met, have massively abused Section 5 and Anti-Terrorism Act powers especially with regard to photographers. One was, worryingly, arrested for being 'too tall'. 

If the police do take your camera or delete photos, this is classified as theft and a prosecution and compensation claim can be brought against the officer. For anything like this, take a small notebook and pen and write down what happens. They will not expect this - it'll give you the power.

See the excellent resource I'm a photographer not a terrorist on I'm a Photographer, not a Terrorist for more info.


----------



## Chris Newman

paulds said:


> Very, very nice work on the flier bud, well done for getting things together so quickly.
> 
> Just a quick word of warning to anyone kind enough to protest, I was nearly spoken to by the police last night for going to the local Lush store and photographing their campaign pictures.
> 
> It would seem that some Lush stores have been subject to vandalism ( I hope not from anyone on here as this would be seriously counter productive). They asked me to delete the pics and wanted to know what I was planning on doing, I was honest and explained the situation, to which they were very fair but said that any disturbance would result in police intervention.
> 
> If we all make sure that we conduct ourselves well when we hand out the fliers all will be fine but we do need to behave as adverse publicity will only compound the situation. : victory:


That is very interesting, clearly Lush are beginning to panic and fear their reputation as “an ethical” is in jeopardy… which obviously it is. Anybody planning to hand out the leaflets please be careful, you have every right to protest and hand out leaflets, but do be careful, not least of all because there some extremely unpleasant and violent people associated with some of these Animal Rights organisations….


----------



## paulds

Sephiroth said:


> thanks for bringing it up. Looks like they're ready for us :whip:
> 
> It would be a good idea for anyone interested in taking action to have a glance over this pdf
> 
> How to Protest on the Right Side of the Law
> 
> i really don't believe the police had the right to make you delete those photos... did you manage to get any of their printed media?





Graham said:


> They didn't have the right, not unless they were misusing anti-terrorism laws again, a photographer friend of mine fell foul of this in a London street last year.


 They came on fairly heavy at first, which was when they asked for the photo's to be deleted (prompted by a real dick of a Lush manager), after I explained the situation they were really quite polite. I think they are concerned as it would seem a few stores have been trashed.

Unfortunately, I was politely asked to refrain from entering the store, unless buying something and I am fairly certain my presence will not be appreciated but I have asked the Mrs to pop in their today and get some of their info.

Good link BTW Sephiroth : victory:


----------



## Chris Newman

The other thing people can do is keep their eyes open for stories about this campaign that appears in the local media, such as this: 

Lush opens the door for reptiles
http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/news/Lush-opens-door-reptiles/article-2518130-detail/article.html

Very worth while to contact the papers and send them a copy of the leaflet, play Lush as its own game!


----------



## Alfonzo

Chris Newman said:


> but do be careful, not least of all because there some extremely unpleasant and violent people associated with some of these Animal Rights organisations….


Too true...they are clearly well known for 'twisted facts' and propaganda, and some of past Animal Rights demonstrations and protests have been known to be despicable. A friend of my family worked for a company, who had a client connected with Huntingdon Life Sciences, AR protesters placed an 'unidentified package' on his doorstep and threw paint stripper all over his car - this led to the bomb disposal squad being called out and the street being evacuated.

This is the sort of extreme measures these people view as being justifiable and proportionate to the 'crimes' they believe are being committed. Do take care if you are going to protest however you do it, we don't need any tragedies!


----------



## Khaos

I'll step up the leaflet editing - I'll have it media-ready in the next hour or so...


----------



## Sephiroth

Nice effort anyhow Paul :2thumb: we do need that stuff for ASA so I'll give it a go as well...

If we are just standing outside peacefully handing out our nice reasonable fliers (which are also worded politely with "Please think twice before buying" rather than "DON'T BUY!!") then I can see no reason why the police could move us on unless we were blocking the entrance.


----------



## Sephiroth

Another thought... if you want to arrange something in your area, you might want to do it quietly.... don't know who is reading these forums  That way the antis won't know which shops to target


----------



## Chris Newman

paulds said:


> They came on fairly heavy at first, which was when they asked for the photo's to be deleted (prompted by a real dick of a Lush manager), after I explained the situation they were really quite polite. I think they are concerned as it would seem a few stores have been trashed.
> 
> Unfortunately, I was politely asked to refrain from entering the store, unless buying something and I am fairly certain my presence will not be appreciated but I have asked the Mrs to pop in their today and get some of their info.
> 
> Good link BTW Sephiroth : victory:


I am sorry for what must have been a very unpleasant situation, but the upside is clearly Lush are extremely concerned how this ludicrous campaign they are supporting is backfiring on them – so that’s the good news.

It is very important to get copies of the leaflets Lush are distributing, originally I was very opposed to the FBH making a formal complaint to the Advertising Standards Agency etc, however, upon reflection perhaps we should. If people get copies could they please let me know as I would like to obtain hard copies.


----------



## paulds

Chris Newman said:


> That is very interesting, clearly Lush are beginning to panic and fear their reputation as “an ethical” is in jeopardy… which obviously it is. Anybody planning to hand out the leaflets please be careful, you have every right to protest and hand out leaflets, but do be careful, not least of all because there some extremely unpleasant and violent people associated with some of these Animal Rights organisations….


 The manager was not in the least bit pleased to hear what I was doing and fortunately the police did agree that as long as i did not enter the store or disrupt the business, I was free to do as I pleased.

I take from this that Lush have been feeling pressure from more than just our forum users :2thumb:



Khaos said:


> I'll step up the leaflet editing - I'll have it media-ready in the next hour or so...





Sephiroth said:


> Nice effort anyhow Paul :2thumb: we do need that stuff for ASA so I'll give it a go as well...
> 
> If we are just standing outside peacefully handing out our nice reasonable fliers (which are also worded politely with "Please think twice before buying" rather than "DON'T BUY!!") then I can see no reason why the police could move us on unless we were blocking the entrance.





Sephiroth said:


> Another thought... if you want to arrange something in your area, you might want to do it quietly.... don't know who is reading these forums  That way the antis won't know which shops to target


 I would suggest, groups of 2 or 3 people at a store, if you are going it alone don't put yourselves at risk by arguing with idiots : victory:



Chris Newman said:


> I am sorry for what must have been a very unpleasant situation, but the upside is clearly Lush are extremely concerned how this ludicrous campaign they are supporting is backfiring on them – so that’s the good news.
> 
> It is very important to get copies of the leaflets Lush are distributing, originally I was very opposed to the FBH making a formal complaint to the Advertising Standards Agency etc, however, upon reflection perhaps we should. If people get copies could they please let me know as I would like to obtain hard copies.


 To be fair Chris, it made me feel young again :blush:.

I left with a real sense of victory as the manager of Lush although displeased that I had been there, seemed more keen than me to get rid of his promotion as it was drawing undesirable attention to his store : victory:

The ASA seem to be really building up on this one, they have a copy of the Web page for the campaign and I will be getting the leaflet off to them this evening.

I have had a bit of success with arguing the point that by "educating" children with what is in essense a political message, they are acting innapropriately.


----------



## Ssthisto

I'll see if I can't swing by our nearest-local Lush and pick up any propaganda they'll hand me....

By the way, the pro-keeping leaflet would really benefit from at least one nice photograph of a happy person with a pet reptile.... a happy NORMAL-looking person, mind you!


----------



## David L

Chris Newman said:


> That is very interesting, clearly Lush are beginning to panic and fear their reputation as “an ethical” is in jeopardy… which obviously it is. Anybody planning to hand out the leaflets please be careful, you have every right to protest and hand out leaflets, *but do be careful, not least of all because there some extremely unpleasant and violent people associated with some of these Animal Rights organisations*….


 
Don't wanna come over all high and mighty, but in my case that wouldn't be a problem, I look like a nightclub bouncer... (or as my partner would say 'a pitbull licking P**s off a nettle') in fact it would go in our favour if they did get all violent with me. So I would welcome it, and preferably get it on camera and post it on You Tube.


When ever someone says to me "The bigger they are, the harder they fall" I usually reply "The smaller they are, the further they F***** fly!"
:lol2:


----------



## paulds

Ssthisto said:


> I'll see if I can't swing by our nearest-local Lush and pick up any propaganda they'll hand me....
> 
> By the way, the pro-keeping leaflet would really benefit from at least one nice photograph of a happy person with a pet reptile.... a happy NORMAL-looking person, mind you!


 Sounds like a good idea, I would offer to do it myself but I'm too pugly 



David L said:


> Don't wanna come over all high and mighty, but in my case that wouldn't be a problem, I look like a nightclub bouncer... (or as my partner would say 'a pitbull licking P**s off a nettle') in fact it would go in our favour if they did get all violent with me. So I would welcome it, and preferably get it on camera and post it on You Tube.
> 
> 
> When ever someone says to me "The bigger they are, the harder they fall" I usually reply "The smaller they are, the further they F***** fly!"
> :lol2:


 I'm a chunky monkey myself, which is a shame as there were a couple of times last night I thought I could persuade the Lush manager to give me a lump but unfortunately he didn't.

Imagine the story in the papers " Local peddler of soap and lies, assaults innocent fat man in a suit" :whistling2:


----------



## Sephiroth

Ssthisto said:


> I'll see if I can't swing by our nearest-local Lush and pick up any propaganda they'll hand me....
> 
> By the way, the pro-keeping leaflet would really benefit from at least one nice photograph of a happy person with a pet reptile.... a happy NORMAL-looking person, mind you!


Nice idea Ssthisto. Khaos is on with the formatting at the moment so he may be able to squeeze something like that in  Hope you can get the fliers as well.

@Paul - I'm went with "substantiation" and "widespread offense"  Considering this will be the second time, I'm hoping they will get more than just a slap on the wrist!


----------



## paulds

Sephiroth said:


> @Paul - I'm went with "substantiation" and "widespread offense"  Considering this will be the second time, I'm hoping they will get more than just a slap on the wrist!


 Good move. 

The second time you say? :whistling2:


----------



## Alfonzo

Ssthisto said:


> I'll see if I can't swing by our nearest-local Lush and pick up any propaganda they'll hand me....
> 
> By the way, the pro-keeping leaflet would really benefit from at least one nice photograph of a happy person with a pet reptile.... a happy NORMAL-looking person, mind you!


You mean as opposed to some sort of heavily tattooed beardy scamp with a dozen facial piercings and the like?! Well I never!:2thumb:



paulds said:


> Sounds like a good idea, I would offer to do it myself but I'm too pugly
> 
> 
> Imagine the story in the papers " Local peddler of soap and lies, assaults innocent fat man in a suit" :whistling2:


:lol2: Actually had to stifle a giggle when I read this!


----------



## David L

paulds said:


> Sounds like a good idea, I would offer to do it myself but I'm too pugly
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a chunky monkey myself, which is a shame as there were a couple of times last night *I thought I could persuade the Lush manager to give me a lump but unfortunately he didn't*.
> 
> Imagine the story in the papers " Local peddler of soap and lies, assaults innocent fat man in a suit" :whistling2:


Ha ha!!
Marching out all high and mighty getting in your face and you just stand there grinning at him, edging him on... in the back of your mind all you can think of is "go on, take a pop at me, dare ya!"

then all you need to do is just look him up and down as if to measure his size and then say "how strong is the glass in your shop window?" :lol2:

Come on... the testosterone is flowing now! (sucking in guts, puffing out chest adn shouts "RAARRRRR")


----------



## Ssthisto

Alfonzo said:


> You mean as opposed to some sort of heavily tattooed beardy scamp with a dozen facial piercings and the like?! Well I never!:2thumb:


Nah, you need someone who looks like a librarian or something.

I may have some photos that will work


----------



## Graham

It's been a long time since I was actively involved in anything like this, but back in the day I took part in quite a few similar demos outside shops and learned a few things.

You definitely don't want big groups, this can be seen as intimidating and will more than likely get you moved on by police, rightly or wrongly, it can be hard to stand there in the street quoting the law to them, and they're just as likely to arrest you for something else if you don't comply.

As mentioned a group of two or three is plenty.

It can be useful to have a photographer with you, then if the police do turn up, or any of the opposition, you can have a proper record of exactly what happened. If your photographer is positioned some distance away, like on the other side of the street, then they are unlikely to become involved themselves if anything happens.


----------



## paulds

David L said:


> Ha ha!!
> Marching out all high and mighty getting in your face and you just stand there grinning at him, edging him on... in the back of your mind all you can think of is "go on, take a pop at me, dare ya!"
> 
> then all you need to do is just look him up and down as if to measure his size and then say "how strong is the glass in your shop window?" :lol2:
> 
> Come on... the testosterone is flowing now! (sucking in guts, puffing out chest adn shouts "RAARRRRR")


 I was coming over all " I really see no need to be so hostile, I am merely pointing out the issues with your companies campaign". 

I would have taken great pleasure in River Dancing all over him but nowhere near as much pleasure as displaying a black eye to the local press :2thumb:


----------



## Sephiroth

paulds said:


> Good move.
> 
> The second time you say? :whistling2:


Yep :lol2: ASA gave them a slap on the wrist in June for the hunting campaign... 

Lush campaign banned by ASA | Countryside Alliance

they won't be too pleased about investigating them for a second time in just three months! This time I'm hoping that they will have to have all their media vetted by ASA for the next couple of years.


----------



## Khaos

Guys,

The campaign letter/flyer is looking good. One thing I want to do is have every hard-hitting fact backed up and proven. 

So can you lovely people find me some stats on the following:


“Six million reptiles were imported into the EU last year and almost 200,000 arrived in Britain from outside of the EU.” – Lush & the APA

These figures are inaccurate and misleading, as numbers imported were significantly lower. In fact, 90% of reptiles in the pet trade are bred in captivity, not wild collected. 

(Do we have actual numbers?)

“Most Wild Caught Reptiles Die 
Within The First Year.” – Lush & the APA

The truth is that reptiles kept in captivity are likely to live twice as long as their wild counterparts.

(I've heard this before. Can anyone suggest a study or report to back it up?)

Thanks

K.


----------



## Chris Newman

*Lush leading the way in reptile awareness*
Good response to campaign highlighting the suffering of exotic animals 

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1867626?UserKey=


----------



## paulds

Sephiroth said:


> Yep :lol2: ASA gave them a slap on the wrist in June for the hunting campaign...
> 
> Lush campaign banned by ASA | Countryside Alliance
> 
> they won't be too pleased about investigating them for a second time in just three months! This time I'm hoping that they will have to have all their media vetted by ASA for the next couple of years.


Excellent, it seems they want to come across as "this is what we stand for" so they are affiliating themselves with people in the most controversial way possible. Albeit APA is a step down from hunt sabotuers but on the back of that I can see us having a result here.

If we are successful in getting the campaign banned, it would be well worth trying to get something in the press about it. :2thumb:


----------



## paulds

Chris Newman said:


> *Lush leading the way in reptile awareness*
> Good response to campaign highlighting the suffering of exotic animals
> 
> [URL="http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1867626?UserKey="]http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1867626?UserKey=[/URL]


 Getting an e mail together now, if the campaign gets banned, hopefully the paper will publish a retraction letter.

The more press is generated on this while the campaign is running, hopefully the more can be generated when we accomplish what we have set out to do. : victory:


----------



## Sephiroth

Khaos said:


> Guys,
> 
> The campaign letter/flyer is looking good. One thing I want to do is have every hard-hitting fact backed up and proven.
> 
> So can you lovely people find me some stats on the following:
> 
> 
> “Six million reptiles were imported into the EU last year and almost 200,000 arrived in Britain from outside of the EU.” – Lush & the APA
> 
> These figures are inaccurate and misleading, as numbers imported were significantly lower. In fact, 90% of reptiles in the pet trade are bred in captivity, not wild collected.
> 
> (Do we have actual numbers?)


Well, Chris might have actual data, but currently I can only see 5 or 6 that are definitely WC out of nearly 100 reptiles on our current stock list... all the rest are either CB or CF....


----------



## Chris Newman

Khaos said:


> Guys,
> 
> The campaign letter/flyer is looking good. One thing I want to do is have every hard-hitting fact backed up and proven.
> 
> So can you lovely people find me some stats on the following:
> 
> 
> “Six million reptiles were imported into the EU last year and almost 200,000 arrived in Britain from outside of the EU.” – Lush & the APA
> 
> These figures are inaccurate and misleading, as numbers imported were significantly lower. In fact, 90% of reptiles in the pet trade are bred in captivity, not wild collected.
> 
> (Do we have actual numbers?)
> 
> “Most Wild Caught Reptiles Die
> Within The First Year.” – Lush & the APA
> 
> The truth is that reptiles kept in captivity are likely to live twice as long as their wild counterparts.
> 
> (I've heard this before. Can anyone suggest a study or report to back it up?)
> 
> Thanks
> 
> K.


 
I can get the data, but don’t have up-to-date data to hand. It is quite complex acquiring such data as the mechanisms which record this are very complex and confusing, its very easy to get live imports confused with shipments of skins for example.

What I did do yesterday, or rather a colleague of mine because I’m crap with modern technology [what’s wrong with a pen and paper!] is interrogate the WCMC trade data for trade in live chameleons, very interesting.

The two species featured in the APA campaign “I’m a chameleon get me out of here” are Panther chameleons, _Furcifer pardalis_ and the Veiled Chameleon_, Chamaeleo calyptratus_. This is global trade, i.e. exported animals, not just to the UK or the EU but world wide for 2009:


_Furcifer pardalis _Wild Caught 397
Captive hatched 7
Captive bred 322

*Total 726*


_Chamaeleo calyptratus _Wild Caught 0
Captive Bred 250

*Total 250*


This data is only for animals exported as either captive bred or wild caught animals, it would not include data on captive bred animals sold in that county, i.e. this data does not show the number of wither species bred and sold within the EU, which will be many thousands.


----------



## Chris Newman

This data may be too old? Its from a report which I disliked intensely, fortunately the author of the report never got to write another one for WWF. Notwithstanding this, the information contained in the report was helpful:


*CITES imports *Reptiles and Amphibians
*Traded towards extinction*WWF Report (2002)


n Live imports into EU 1999
 210,180 70% captive bred 

n Live imports into UK 1995 – 2000 
 85,971 57% captive bred

n This equates (average) to *17,194 per annum*.
 9,800 captive bred, 7,394 wild caught


----------



## Sephiroth

ok... I've had a closer look at our current livestock and to be completely fair, a total of 9 out of 87 may by wild caught. These ones definitely are:

flying gecko
tokay gecko
green anoles
Cane Toad
Green Tree Frogs

then possibly :

Sandfish
Fire Skink
Green Tree Skink
African Reed Frogs

out of a total of 87 of the reptiles, phibs and inverts listed, is about 10% WC.

But that doesn't take into account that far more corn snakes, bearded dragons and leopard geckos (which are all CB without exception) are sold than any of the WC reptiles.


----------



## wohic

could we get a pile of the flyers printed for Kempton ?
perhaps have them on the door so people are offered one as they pay ?


----------



## paulds

wohic said:


> could we get a pile of the flyers printed for Kempton ?
> perhaps have them on the door so people are offered one as they pay ?


 That is a good idea, also anyone who works or knows anyone who works in a pet shop may also want to get some together for prospective customers: victory:


----------



## Chris Newman

wohic said:


> could we get a pile of the flyers printed for Kempton ?
> perhaps have them on the door so people are offered one as they pay ?


That is a good idea…. Is the flyer compete yet? 

How many of you will be attending the show? Perhaps we could arrange to meet and discuss this matter further!


----------



## Khaos

Righto all. Here's my first draft. See what you think. I've forwarded it to Sephiroth for his input.


----------



## excession

Looks good. once finished I might print some out and send one out in each of my orders I dispatch.

Having them at the entrance to KP would be a great idea also.


----------



## wohic

Chris Newman said:


> That is a good idea…. Is the flyer compete yet?
> 
> How many of you will be attending the show? Perhaps we could arrange to meet and discuss this matter further!


I will be there with a table, if the ink I have ordered gets here on time i will print out some flyers to have available on the day



Khaos said:


> Righto all. Here's my first draft. See what you think. I've forwarded it to Sephiroth for his input.
> 
> image



Very impressive


----------



## Moosmoo

I have been reading this thread through and I listened to Chris and Alex on the radio yesterday and I just want to say thankyou for everyones efforts because its great to see that us reptile keepers are hitting back as a united community! 

My boyfriend and I were discussing this last night and we would love to help and hand out leaflets outside our local Lush - the only problem being is that it is in Kingston which is getting quite close to London, I'm just a bit worried that people would get out of hand :bash: 

Also I work in a shop and would be happy to talk to my manager about putting these leaflets on our counter and handing them to customers! :no1:


----------



## Khaos

I've taken out a typo or two. But I'd love any feedback on style, fonts, wording etc...


----------



## Chris Newman

Excellent but I suggest that we don’t use the RSPCA logo, they will go ape sh*t…. The RSPCA are opposed to the keeping of reptiles, in reality they opposed all animals being kept in captivity but are just a like reluctant to admit it in public. The 90% less prosecutions being taken against reptiles keepers is from my analysis of their prosecutions, its true, but the RSPCA not like it one bit.


----------



## Khaos

Hmm the only reason I put it there is because we have used their figures. But I can take it off, not an issue.


----------



## paulds

Khaos said:


> Hmm the only reason I put it there is because we have used their figures. But I can take it off, not an issue.


 
I would say it's for the best, it probably wouldn't look great if well known organisations like the RSPCA came out in the press distancing themselves from our retort : victory:


----------



## andy007

Good work Khaos:no1:

Don't know if you noticed, but the bit from "As responsible, caring reptile owners......" too the paragraph that starts "Lush is currently under investigation......" is repeated.


----------



## Khaos

Haha thanks guys. I've also worked up a nicer, easier to read layout. RSPCA logo out, CAWC and WCMC logos in, typos out... looking promising!


----------



## Chris Newman

Khaos said:


> Hmm the only reason I put it there is because we have used their figures. But I can take it off, not an issue.


I fully understand why you used it, but caution must be exercised that nothing is done that could bring a counter claim. The RSPCA would not allow the use of its logo, that I am sure. I think we also need to change the wording of the last sentence:

The RSPCA state that 90% less prosecutions are brought against reptile keepers…. This needs to be: RSPCA data shows 90% fewer prosecutions are brought against reptile keepers….. just have to be careful how data is used…. As I said the RSPCA are not allies of pet keepers so we use their data carefully!


----------



## Spikebrit

Once it is finshed can you put a compy on here as I would love to hand a few out in my local store. 

Jay


----------



## shell2909

I should be going to york with Jugganaut and Sephiroth (power in numbers and all hehe)
who else is going to York on Sat?


----------



## Khaos

Right, here's a look at the new version...


----------



## Sephiroth

Hi Khaos,

I like alot of the changes :2thumb:

though to be honest, I prefer the original 

But I'm like that! I always prefer my own work so please don't take it the wrong way! :blush:

I'll leave it up to everyone else... perhaps have a pole to see which one everyone prefers?


----------



## Khaos

Chris, I'll make the changes you've suggested to the RSPCA data.

Once we've got a version we're all happy with, I'll host it as a PDF so it can be downloaded, printed and emailed.


----------



## paulds

Good work Khaos.

Just to reiterrate Chis' point about the RSPCA, I would change the comment to "RSPCA data states" as the comment you have could be construed that the RSPCA had directly commented to this effect : victory:


----------



## paulds

Khaos said:


> Chris, I'll make the changes you've suggested to the RSPCA data.
> 
> Once we've got a version we're all happy with, I'll host it as a PDF so it can be downloaded, printed and emailed.


appologies, posted my reply before this came up :blush:


----------



## Khaos

Sephiroth said:


> Hi Khaos,
> 
> I like alot of the changes :2thumb:
> 
> though to be honest, I prefer the original
> 
> But I'm like that! I always prefer my own work so please don't take it the wrong way! :blush:
> 
> I'll leave it up to everyone else... perhaps have a pole to see which one everyone prefers?


Having just gone back to the original, I've incorporated a few more elements into the draft. Your title is far more emotive, so I've put that back in, nice and bold. I've changed the RSPCA line as per Chris' suggestion.

Seph, your version is very passionate and exciting, but as Chris said, we must be as professional and calm as possible. I agree with you, I'd love to have the word 'WRONG!' in 72 point across the top - but we need people to read this and understand that it's professional and well-researched. First impressions are everything. Don't feel edged out, this is your hard work, I've just media-fied it a little!


----------



## andy007

Looks well thought out:2thumb:

Just one thing There is a type face change from the bottom of the first column to the top of the second, which is the same sentence:notworthy:


----------



## Sephiroth

Khaos said:


> Having just gone back to the original, I've incorporated a few more elements into the draft. Your title is far more emotive, so I've put that back in, nice and bold. I've changed the RSPCA line as per Chris' suggestion.
> 
> Seph, your version is very passionate and exciting, but as Chris said, we must be as professional and calm as possible. I agree with you, I'd love to have the word 'WRONG!' in 72 point across the top - but we need people to read this and understand that it's professional and well-researched. First impressions are everything. Don't feel edged out, this is your hard work, I've just media-fied it a little!


hee hee... okey doke! I'll leave it to you


----------



## Khaos

*Version 1.0 available for download as a PDF*

The Truth About Reptiles.pdf

62.6kB, download, comment, improve, share!


----------



## andy007

Khaos said:


> The Truth About Reptiles.pdf
> 
> 62.6kB, download, comment, improve, share!


Cool: victory: Will use them at my shop:notworthy:


----------



## shell2909

Great 
Now all i need to do is fix my printer, has a mind of it's own :bash:


----------



## Spikebrit

Khaos said:


> The Truth About Reptiles.pdf
> 
> 62.6kB, download, comment, improve, share!


wonderful, ignore my PM, i shall print this off in a min and get them dotted around. 

Jay


----------



## Chris Newman

I really like this leaflet, its starting to come together. Ok, let’s think this thought what are the key messages we want to convey? 

I am slightly concerned we might be digging a hole over numbers, the claim of six million reptiles imported into the EU last year is wrong, know doubt, but I will not have the data to prove this in time. The numbers claimed to be imported into the UK from outside the EU, i.e. 200,000 is probably about right, if anything an underestimation. However, numbers are not the point, the point is the claim they are wild caught is the issue – this is the lie. So we need to be careful how we address this, the WWF report is accurate, and irrefutable, so perhaps we should use that data data credit it to the WWF, not HRRC.

The other bit the slightly concerns me is the statement about reptile-breeding operations being outside the law, again this is not true. Such establishments fall under the remit of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and can be inspected. It is true to say there is no licensing requirements, because there is not. The only companion animal covered by any breeding legislation is dogs!


----------



## bothrops

Looking good.

A couple of points. Firstly have you checked with the relevant organisations and gained their written permission to use their logos - I would suggest that just using their data isn't sufficient grounds for us to 'give their stamp of authority'. I'm pretty sure there is quite tight laws regarding the use of registered logos withouyt explicit permission...(e.g. I'd have to go on a course to enable me to be allowed to use the logo of the company I work for!)

Secondly, it would be improved if the CAWC quote was all in one block rather than spread over two columns. This could probably be done by changing the order of the breakdown/counter blocks (it looks like the 'Many commercial reptile breeders...' bit would fit in full beneath the 'six million reptiles...' block, which would allow the 'some dodgy....', 'there is very little...' and 'most wild caught...' blocks to fit in the second column in complete, unsplit blocks.

I would be tempted to add that the data about 'most wild caught animals die...' is taken from ancient dat about wild caught tortoises that is now illegal...in order to further discredit their 'facts' and 'research'....?


----------



## Sephiroth

If you don't mind Khaos, I'd like to post the original version again... to me the original is simple and highlights the key points at a glance. Also the emotive focus on conservation I think is a strong point.

I feel this version will be more appealing to the man-on-the-street... 

I do like alot of what you've done though!


----------



## Spikebrit

when we agree on a document i will pass it on to all the people I know. As a prelimary I have passed on the PDF so that we can get something out before the weekend.


----------



## andy007

Just a quicky Anyone know if a PDF can be converted to something I can upload to photobucket?


----------



## Khaos

andy007 said:


> Just a quicky Anyone know if a PDF can be converted to something I can upload to photobucket?


You should be able to save it as a .jpeg image.


----------



## andy007

Khaos said:


> You should be able to save it as a .jpeg image.


OK: victory:


----------



## bothrops

Chris Newman said:


> I really like this leaflet, its starting to come together. Ok, let’s think this thought what are the key messages we want to convey?
> 
> I am slightly concerned we might be digging a hole over numbers, the claim of six million reptiles imported into the EU last year is wrong, know doubt, but I will not have the data to prove this in time. The numbers claimed to be imported into the UK from outside the EU, i.e. 200,000 is probably about right, if anything an underestimation. However, numbers are not the point, the point is the claim they are wild caught is the issue – this is the lie. So we need to be careful how we address this, the WWF report is accurate, and irrefutable, so perhaps we should use that data data credit it to the WWF, not HRRC.
> 
> The other bit the slightly concerns me is the statement about reptile-breeding operations being outside the law, again this is not true. Such establishments fall under the remit of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and can be inspected. It is true to say there is no licensing requirements, because there is not. The only companion animal covered by any breeding legislation is dogs!


Chris posted this as I posted mine. I'll agree with all of this and 'put it out there' that the emphasis should be mainly on the fact that reptiles make excellent pets and that the VAST MAJORITY of keepers are well informed, highly responsible pet owners rather than the emphasis being on 'who has the better numbers'.

Don't get me wrong - the numbers are important and need to be stated, but it is the 'big picture' and 'take home message' that needs to be concreted....


----------



## Khaos

Indeed, this is a good message, but the APA is fighting us with bull statistics. If we don't fight them with facts, we'll look like we're covering up.

Trust me, the numbers need to be in there. This isn't the time for fluffy PR, this is a time for incontrovertible facts and figures. We cannot afford to give them an inch of wiggle room.


----------



## Khaos

Now, one thing I'd love to do, is put an image of a happy, healthy lizard as a pale watermark behind the image.

Can anyone provide me with a decent resolution, portrait-shaped image of a reptile we can use? I daren't google it because we need something without copyright on it...


----------



## Natrix

bothrops said:


> Looking good.
> 
> A couple of points. Firstly have you checked with the relevant organisations and gained their written permission to use their logos - I would suggest that just using their data isn't sufficient grounds for us to 'give their stamp of authority'. I'm pretty sure there is quite tight laws regarding the use of registered logos withouyt explicit permission...(e.g. I'd have to go on a course to enable me to be allowed to use the logo of the company I work for!)


Chris is going to be away from his computer for the next couple of hours and has asked me to cast an eye over this impressive little project.

Sorry to start of on a no, no but I am going to have to agree with bothrops on this point. All these logo's are copyrighted and just like the RSPCA the other groups will be quick to complain especially if this hits the national head lines, which is of course exactly what we want it to do.

Groups like CAWC may well give permission to use their logo but it would take weeks to get that permission. My suggestion would be to drop the logo's but where you use their information credit them in bold print and where possible include their web site address. 

Gordon


----------



## Moosmoo

Khaos and Seph - well done! that leaflet is awesome, its clear, concise and is all backed up with facts that can't be disputed by Lush or the APA. I have noticed throughout their campaign that they have used statistics that are clearly untrue or they haven't at all. The guy on the radio yesterday had nothing to dispute what Chris said. I think stating the facts as well as putting across that reptile keepers are responsible, caring owners is exactly the way we need to go.


----------



## Khaos

Fair does. Anyone know if we can use the Reptile Forums and FBH logos? Or should we go logo-free?


----------



## bothrops

Khaos said:


> Indeed, this is a good message, but the APA is fighting us with bull statistics. If we don't fight them with facts, we'll look like we're covering up.
> 
> Trust me, the numbers need to be in there. This isn't the time for fluffy PR, this is a time for incontrovertible facts and figures. We cannot afford to give them an inch of wiggle room.


I don't dispute for a second that the figures shouldn't be there, they absolutely 1000% should be...

my point is we are up against a catchy tag line 'I'm a Chameleon get me outta here' and big budget, glossy, large scale publications..not to mention staff members in cages dressed as lizards (which incidently completely controvine animal welfare laws for keeping homonid apes in captivity....:whistling2

...if the leaflets are too 'info heavy' then they will just be binned, or not even picked up. We need to make sure the message is very very clear, very very quickly from two or three strong punchy headline style words (even if they are a little 'emotive') then back it all up in the text with the facts and figures for those that want to read on.


----------



## Natrix

Khaos said:


> Now, one thing I'd love to do, is put an image of a happy, healthy lizard as a pale watermark behind the image.
> 
> Can anyone provide me with a decent resolution, portrait-shaped image of a reptile we can use? I daren't google it because we need something without copyright on it...


I tried this with the FBH care sheets but water marks can get lost behind the writing and just make things looking messy.

How about swapping the logo's at the top for pictures of baby chameleons hatching, adults mating etc, anything that shows them doing well in a captive environment. At a push you could also use some of the nicer looking corn and royal morphs to show the work that has gone into the keeping and breeding of reptiles.

Gordon


----------



## bothrops

I've got a couple of nice cham pics....I'll have a look now...


----------



## andy007

Natrix said:


> At a push you could also use some of the nicer looking corn and royal morphs to show the work that has gone into the keeping and breeding of reptiles.
> 
> Gordon


Personally I wouldn't use "morphs". This is just something else they would latch on to i.e. look what they are doing to beautiful animals, making reptiles more commercial through breeding them for colour etc etc.... Best stick with naturally occurring reptile colours.


----------



## Natrix

Khaos said:


> Fair does. Anyone know if we can use the Reptile Forums and FBH logos? Or should we go logo-free?


I don't see a problem with using the FBH logo. Perhaps just squeeze in something along the lines of "information supplied by" to show that the information has come from a second party and isn't something you made up like certain other "Agencies" seem to have done.

Gordon


----------



## Natrix

andy007 said:


> Personally I wouldn't use "morphs". This is just something else they would latch on to i.e. look what they are doing to beautiful animals, making reptiles more commercial through breeding them for colour etc etc.... Best stick with naturally occurring reptile colours.


Then you ask them to explain how many generations and how many years it takes to produce a double or triple het morph and how that is acheived with an animal that dies in less than a year in captivity.

Do we have chameleon morphs? (sorry not a Cham expert)

Gordon


----------



## Crownan

andy007 said:


> Personally I wouldn't use "morphs". This is just something else they would latch on to i.e. look what they are doing to beautiful animals, making reptiles more commercial through breeding them for colour etc etc.... Best stick with naturally occurring reptile colours.


I agree, nice examples of 'natural' animals would go down far better


----------



## andy007

Natrix said:


> Then you ask them to explain how many generations and how many years it takes to produce a double or triple het morph and how that is acheived with an animal that dies in less than a year in captivity.
> Gordon


TBH, they aren't gonna care about that. I just feel that we don't want to give them a come back at our "poster". Look at the bad publicity dog breeding has had over breeding for colour and shape. There are a lot a people who don't think breeders of any animals should play God and change them.


----------



## bothrops

Full res version avialable if you pm email.


*"I'm *a Chameleon, and *I *say I'm happy where I am, thanks!"


----------



## Khaos

Right, loving what we're thinking so far.

Here's the kind of idea I'm working towards at the moment...


----------



## Khaos

I'd quite like one of the images to have a lizard on a hand, to show it's a pet, but I'd need an image with a pure white background...


----------



## Ssthisto

bothrops said:


> ...if the leaflets are too 'info heavy' then they will just be binned, or not even picked up. We need to make sure the message is very very clear, very very quickly from two or three strong punchy headline style words (even if they are a little 'emotive') then back it all up in the text with the facts and figures for those that want to read on.


I'd swap some of the heavy text for bullet lists that can be skimmed - like:

"90% of pet reptiles are born in captivity"
"100% of Yemen chameleons exported in 2009 were."

Flyer design is very much like website design - you've got less than a minute before someone decides to chuck the paper in the bin. You need to catch their eye fast and throw enough fast information that even if they DO throw it away, they'll remember some of what they saw.

And absolutely use at least one photograph of happy healthy people with happy healthy reptiles. I have some photos taken by myself or my partner OF myself or my partner that I would be willing to have used for the purposes of the flyer.


----------



## bothrops

Khaos said:


> Right, loving what we're thinking so far.
> 
> Here's the kind of idea I'm working towards at the moment...
> 
> image


Really liking it! (I would put "The Truth About Reptiles" all in bold and underlined and use 'Wonderful pets, happy (responsible?) owners' as the tag line)


----------



## andy007

Awesome:no1:


----------



## Freakinfreak

Khaos said:


> Right, loving what we're thinking so far.
> 
> Here's the kind of idea I'm working towards at the moment...
> 
> image


Maybe counteract their "i'm a chameleon get me out of here" and do something like "i'm a chameleon, get me out of ... something".

Hahaha, I haven't got a clue what you could do but if it was instantly related to LUSH's idiot punchline then people may take more notice than plain text. I've shown your mock-up ideas for leaflets to my family, ages 11, 16, 44, 45, next door neighbours ages 14, 18, 22, 47, 48, a family across the road ages 36, 38 and other NDNs ages 12, 14, 15, 15, 16, 46, 49 and all of them said they wouldn't bother reading it as it just looks like too much hassle. 

I'm not saying it's not good but if people of all ages have said they wouldn't want to read it then maybe you could do something to make it look more attractive and less political? Just my 2p : victory:


----------



## Natrix

andy007 said:


> TBH, they aren't gonna care about that. I just feel that we don't want to give them a come back at our "poster". Look at the bad publicity dog breeding has had over breeding for colour and shape. There are a lot a people who don't think breeders of any animals should play God and change them.


And how do you make it clear that a carolina corn wasn't ripped from the wild and died a week later? 

A nice amel motley shows years of work in it's production that no wild coloured animal can ever show, even if it's got a few dozen captive generations behind it.

Gordon


----------



## Ssthisto

I'd aim to do the best possible to cut the text down by about half, to be honest. 

Short, sweet, to the point.


----------



## Khaos

Another one bites the dust...

Here's the barebones quotes 'n' refutes version...


----------



## Freakinfreak

Khaos said:


> Another one bites the dust...
> 
> Here's the barebones quotes 'n' refutes version...
> 
> image


"Killing our hobby means killing our pets, where do you think they'll go when banned? One place they definately won't go to is a loving home which they have now"


----------



## Ssthisto

Khaos, I'd actually swap the "bold" text so that OUR pro-keeping text is bold.

We want people to remember that bit (if they skim read it) NOT the APA's lies!

For example:

"Some dodgy dealers readily claim that reptiles are easier to keep than dogs" - LUSH & the APA

*"Meeting all the requirements (space, dietary, social, thermal and so on) of a small, hardy reptile may be more readily achievable for many people than adequately fulfilling the needs of some breeds of dog."*

"Most wild-caught reptiles die within the first year"

*"Reptiles kept in captivity are likely to live twice as long as their wild counterparts."*

See the difference? If you skim it, you're going to notice the bold text and remember THAT.


----------



## kain

Looks good :2thumb: i think more people would read this one


----------



## Spikebrit

COuld we not get the IHS logo or something back in, as it would look better then just RFUK.


----------



## wohic

how about our own logo ? a UK passport with a chameleon as the picture ? 
or similar ?


----------



## Spikebrit

Once complete it might be worth sending a copy to Lush directly, as they seem to be taking action. I have been inconversation with the customer relations manager for the past few days and they seem to be taking some of the info on board.

Jay


----------



## wohic

Spikebrit said:


> Once complete it might be worth sending a copy to Lush directly, as they seem to be taking action. I have been inconversation with the customer relations manager for the past few days and they seem to be taking some of the info on board.
> 
> Jay



I dont agree....why give them time to answer our allegations ? no one warned the reptile hobby about their damning campaign ?


----------



## Iggylover

Khaos said:


> Another one bites the dust...
> 
> Here's the barebones quotes 'n' refutes version...
> 
> image


excellent flyer, looks very professional would make a lot of people stop and read it.


----------



## andy007

Spikebrit said:


> Once complete it might be worth sending a copy to Lush directly, as they seem to be taking action. I have been inconversation with the customer relations manager for the past few days and they seem to be taking some of the info on board.
> 
> Jay


Likewise, I have had replies to my emails to them. They have assured me that the information will be passed on to the Campaign manager. I doubt they will change it with out ASA intervention, considering that the owner of Lush is a devout environmentalist and puts up money for the legal fee's of the demonstrators that invaded Stansted airport.


----------



## Sephiroth

likeing the new version :2thumb:

but I think we should keep in that the APA is not a charity...


----------



## Sephiroth

Sephiroth said:


> likeing the new version :2thumb:
> 
> but I think we should keep in that the APA is not a charity...


oh, and saying 25,000 dogs and only 1000 reptiles doesn't mean much unless you mention that there are 6 million dogs and over 5 million reptiles... people will just thing there are 25 times less people keeping reptiles...


----------



## Kittysan

Loving the flyer. I'd be happy to print that off and hand it out for sure!


----------



## Spikebrit

wohic said:


> I dont agree....why give them time to answer our allegations ? no one warned the reptile hobby about their damning campaign ?


I don't mean before we do the protests or whatever. But during or after them it might be worth sending one direct to them to inform them of their dodgy information etc. 

Though I do undertand that it may allow them to spead up their rebutal


----------



## Sephiroth

... and I thought it would be good to mention that they are being investigated by ASA for the second time


----------



## Khaos

Wonderful, love the input.


----------



## Zak

Sephiroth said:


> ... and I thought it would be good to mention that they are being investigated by ASA for the second time


Id let the ASA do that for you, sure phone call/letter with big ASA across it is bit more intimidating than one of us.


----------



## Sephiroth

Zak said:


> Id let the ASA do that for you, sure phone call/letter with big ASA across it is bit more intimidating than one of us.


yes, but it helps support that we are not just a bunch of loonys :crazy: since it is under official investigation


----------



## Natrix

Khaos said:


> Another one bites the dust...
> 
> Here's the barebones quotes 'n' refutes version...
> 
> image


It's starting to look very good now.

Just a thought, could you get something near the RFUK logo giving the web address and pointing out that it's a site with zillions of responsible reptile keepers from the UK reptile hobby.

Gordon


----------



## Natrix

Can I just remind people that this topic will very probably be being monitored closely by certain people so think about what you say on here.


*Hi Elaine:welcomerfuk: are you coming to Kempton? Free entrance if you say hi as you come in.*

Gordon


----------



## Zak

Sephiroth said:


> yes, but it helps support that we are not just a bunch of loonys :crazy: since it is under official investigation


True but remember ASA dont monitor or have any power over websites so we can complain about anything Lush have printed such as brochures and leaflets or any posters.


----------



## Zak

Natrix said:


> Can I just remind people that this topic will very probably be being monitored closely by certain people so think about what you say on here.
> 
> 
> *Hi Elaine:welcomerfuk: are you coming to Kempton? Free entrance if you say hi as you come in.*
> 
> Gordon


Im sure she'll be sending a representative instead, much too busy to go to a little old reptile show.:lol2:


----------



## Sephiroth

Zak said:


> True but remember ASA dont monitor or have any power over websites so we can complain about anything Lush have printed such as brochures and leaflets or any posters.


They cover the internet as well 

ASA - Who we are

They have already been reported and a few of us are in touch with them 


EDIT : Oh bugger... they don't cover company websites... you're right!


----------



## Zak

Sephiroth said:


> They cover the internet as well
> 
> ASA - Who we are
> 
> They have already been reported and a few of us are in touch with them





> *Claims on websites*
> 
> Although we do deal with some advertisements that appear online, the ASA does not currently have any remit over marketing messages on companies’ own websites. We can consider complaints about sales promotions that appear on companies’ websites.
> In general, misleading claims on companies' websites can be reported to your local trading standards department.
> The advertising industry, led by the Advertising Association, is currently holding discussions to extend advertising self-regulation to other forms of digital marketing communications. An announcement will be made in due course.


Taken directly from ASA website, ASA - Areas of complaint outside our remit

Haha just seen your edit. So it all depends on what their paper campaign is like. Anyone got flier yet?


----------



## Spikebrit

Natrix said:


> Can I just remind people that this topic will very probably be being monitored closely by certain people so think about what you say on here.
> 
> 
> *Hi Elaine:welcomerfuk: are you coming to Kempton? Free entrance if you say hi as you come in.*
> 
> Gordon


waves :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Sephiroth

Zak said:


> Taken directly from ASA website, ASA - Areas of complaint outside our remit


yes you're right... i edited my other post. :blush: 

though fortunately there is plenty of printed media to work with... the article on the website was printed in their magazine


----------



## paulds

Natrix said:


> Can I just remind people that this topic will very probably be being monitored closely by certain people so think about what you say on here.
> 
> 
> *Hi Elaine:welcomerfuk: are you coming to Kempton? Free entrance if you say hi as you come in.*
> 
> Gordon


:lol2: Can I add.....

[EDIT-not helpful please keep your eye on the bigger picture and keep this mature and professional - Bothrops]


----------



## Spikebrit

Have we got a finished poster yet???


----------



## Khaos

Ok guys, a revised (again!) version to follow later.

Anyone wanting to add points, please re-post this list with your input added on.

To do:

Add 6 million dogs, 5 million reptiles in the UK
APA is NOT a charity to be included
Include Lush's first ASA ruling and current investigation
Possible alternative Reptile Forums logo
Small description of RFUK

Any more? Add away!

If anyone can find me a photo of a snake, a long one (on a white background) that'd be quite cool too...


----------



## Ssthisto

Khaos said:


> Ok guys, a revised (again!) version to follow later.
> 
> Anyone wanting to add points, please re-post this list with your input added on.
> 
> To do:
> 
> Add 6 million dogs, 5 million reptiles in the UK
> APA is NOT a charity to be included
> Include Lush's first ASA ruling and current investigation
> Possible alternative Reptile Forums logo
> Small description of RFUK
> 
> Any more? Add away!
> 
> If anyone can find me a photo of a snake, a long one (on a white background) that'd be quite cool too...


Put *our counterpoints in BOLD *- and their points normal-weight.


----------



## Natrix

Khaos said:


> Ok guys, a revised (again!) version to follow later.
> 
> Anyone wanting to add points, please re-post this list with your input added on.
> 
> To do:
> 
> Add 6 million dogs, 5 million reptiles in the UK
> APA is NOT a charity to be included
> *Include Lush's first ASA ruling and current investigation*
> Possible alternative Reptile Forums logo
> Small description of RFUK
> 
> Any more? Add away!
> 
> If anyone can find me a photo of a snake, a long one (on a white background) that'd be quite cool too...


It's too early to say the ASA are investigating fully, I would spin the ASA quote around and say that they are again recieving complaints from the public over yet another incorrect Lush campaign. 

Gordon


----------



## Natrix

wohic said:


> how about our own logo ? a UK passport with a chameleon as the picture ?
> or similar ?


I'm loving this idea. Could something be done along the dog passport line? 

Gordon


----------



## Khaos

Natrix, that is how the layout was originally arranged but, to be honest, that much bold text felt a bit over-powering. I'm happy to bash one up when we make the other amends, however. 

For the ASA how about we say the LUSH campaign has been referred to the ASA? And that the past complaint was upheld by the ASA.


----------



## paulds

Khaos said:


> Natrix, that is how the layout was originally arranged but, to be honest, that much bold text felt a bit over-powering. I'm happy to bash one up when we make the other amends, however.
> 
> For the ASA how about we say the LUSH campaign has been referred to the ASA? And that the past complaint was upheld by the ASA.


 With regard to the ASA.....

My partner has just been into the local Lush, to get my copy of their leaflet for the ASA's consideration and apparently they have "run out"????? 

Bit of a result if they have decided to avoid the controversey and take them off the shelf or a bit of a bummer if they have genuinely ran out :hmm:

Either way we really need to address this one as the ASA have given me 5 days to get them the info, which now leaves me 3 days. Seeing as I am now effectively banned from Lush, could someone please post a copy of one of these leaflets before our ASA dreams are crushed : victory:


----------



## Ssthisto

Khaos said:


> Natrix, that is how the layout was originally arranged but, to be honest, that much bold text felt a bit over-powering.


Then just bold the critical points.

Whatever you do, you do NOT want the APA's text to be more visible-and-memorable than ours, and bold text does exactly that.


----------



## bothrops

Ssthisto said:


> Then just bold the critical points.
> 
> Whatever you do, you do NOT want the APA's text to be more visible-and-memorable than ours, and bold text does exactly that.


^This

It is *vital* that the boldest, 'take home bits' of the text are OUR points NOT theirs.

Would be nice to see a couple of bold quoted tags standing alone as Ssthisto pointed out earlier such as...

"*90%* of pet reptiles are *captive* bred"

"*100%* of exported veiled chameleons last year were CAPTIVE bred - NOT wild caught!"

..or whichever sit best/fit best...


----------



## Alfonzo

The poster is looking awesome guys...makes me proud to be a part of this hobby, seeing how everyone has rallied together like this. I'm looking forward to seeing how things pan out with some nervous anticipation, feels like gearing up for a big game/match/fight lol.


----------



## Sephiroth

paulds said:


> With regard to the ASA.....
> 
> My partner has just been into the local Lush, to get my copy of their leaflet for the ASA's consideration and apparently they have "run out"?????
> 
> Bit of a result if they have decided to avoid the controversey and take them off the shelf or a bit of a bummer if they have genuinely ran out :hmm:
> 
> Either way we really need to address this one as the ASA have given me 5 days to get them the info, which now leaves me 3 days. Seeing as I am now effectively banned from Lush, could someone please post a copy of one of these leaflets before our ASA dreams are crushed : victory:


I've sent a few messages to some rfuk members who may have a copy... will have to wait and see.


----------



## Khaos

Crikey guys, just did some reasearch, as of 2008, Reptiles and Amphibians have outnumbered dogs. 8 million to 6 million!


----------



## Ssthisto

bothrops said:


> ^This
> 
> It is *vital* that the boldest, 'take home bits' of the text are OUR points NOT theirs.
> 
> Would be nice to see a couple of bold quoted tags standing alone as Ssthisto pointed out earlier such as...
> 
> "*90%* of pet reptiles are *captive bred*"
> 
> "*100%* of exported veiled chameleons last year were CAPTIVE bred - *NOT wild caught!*"
> 
> ..or whichever sit best/fit best...


Edited the quote for better "skim-reading".

Highlight "Captive bred", highlight "not wild caught" - the things we want people to remember about our reptiles and reptile keeping.


----------



## paulds

Sephiroth said:


> I've sent a few messages to some rfuk members who may have a copy... will have to wait and see.


 Well in bud, hopefully we can get something done. : victory:

Our leaflet campaign will go someway to undo the damage but until the campaign is stopped we are up against a losing battle.

Just wanted to say nice one for your efforts here as well, it has gone from a thought into something, in a very short space of time and yourself, Chris and khaos are instrumental in that :2thumb:


----------



## Natrix

Khaos said:


> Natrix, that is how the layout was originally arranged but, to be honest, that much bold text felt a bit over-powering. I'm happy to bash one up when we make the other amends, however. .


Not looking at the whole page, just a small logo looking like a passport with a chameleon head looking out.



Khaos said:


> For the ASA how about we say the LUSH campaign has been referred to the ASA? And that a similar past complaint was upheld by the ASA.


that's fine I've just added a bit in read that should keep the ASA happy.

Gordon


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Sephiroth said:


> I've sent a few messages to some rfuk members who may have a copy... will have to wait and see.


Loving whats happened so far! Been following the thread from the start lol. 

I'll try and get a fair few bits of their rubbish next time I'm in town, will ask friends to pick up copies for me too, happy to send them to people if I can get em : victory:


----------



## paulds

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Loving whats happened so far! Been following the thread from the start lol.
> 
> I'll try and get a fair few bits of their rubbish next time I'm in town, will ask friends to pick up copies for me too, happy to send them to people if I can get em : victory:


Sweet : victory:


----------



## Natrix

Sephiroth said:


> I've sent a few messages to some rfuk members who may have a copy... will have to wait and see.


I to would like copies of any leaflets along with pictures of any instore premotions. 

Gordon


----------



## paulds

Natrix said:


> I to would like copies of any leaflets along with pictures of any instore premotions.
> 
> Gordon


 Again, take any pic's discretely to avoid undue attention from the federalies.

Although, it is not right for them to make you delete pics they will and have give it a good go : victory:


----------



## Sephiroth

paulds said:


> Well in bud, hopefully we can get something done. : victory:
> 
> Our leaflet campaign will go someway to undo the damage but until the campaign is stopped we are up against a losing battle.
> 
> Just wanted to say nice one for your efforts here as well, it has gone from a thought into something, in a very short space of time and yourself, Chris and khaos are instrumental in that :2thumb:


cheers :blush:

and thanks to yourself, Khaos, Chris of course, as well as everyone else! For a while there it looked like this was going to be a dud!


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

paulds said:


> Again, take any pic's discretely to avoid undue attention from the federalies.
> 
> Although, it is not right for them to make you delete pics they will and have give it a good go : victory:


Are pics still needed? Ours is right on a corner... would be pretty simple to snap some subtle photos :whistling2: I gotta go into the town center (where it is) soon anyway... :2thumb:

Edit: Alfonzo, only just got round to listening to it, you did really well  lol


----------



## Natrix

paulds said:


> Again, take any pic's discretely to avoid undue attention from the federalies.
> 
> Although, it is not right for them to make you delete pics they will and have give it a good go : victory:


Good point.

The law say's you can not take pictures inside shops/private property without permission. But you are free to take pictures of window displays etc from outside the shops.

Try to get a good shot of the writing if you can.

Gordon


----------



## Khaos

Not at all! We've got enough passion to make this work.

Speaking of which, here's version 45,363,43634.2!

Lo-res shot here, linky to the PDF below. I'm trying new things...










Download me here > REV5.pdf <


----------



## paulds

Sephiroth said:


> cheers :blush:
> 
> and thanks to yourself, Khaos, Chris of course, as well as everyone else! For a while there it looked like this was going to be a dud!


I am really happy with how this has taken off, it's a credit to the forum :2thumb:



TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Are pics still needed? Ours is right on a corner... would be pretty simple to snap some subtle photos :whistling2: I gotta go into the town center (where it is) soon anyway... :2thumb:


 My local one is on a corner to but being the subtle guy that I am managed to get questioned by the police and asked to delete my images of the store and am now effectively barred from enetering Lush : victory:


----------



## Natrix

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Are pics still needed? Ours is right on a corner... would be pretty simple to snap some subtle photos :whistling2: I gotta go into the town center (where it is) soon anyway... :2thumb:
> 
> Edit: Alfonzo, only just got round to listening to it, you did really well  lol


Yes because the ASA will ask for evidence.

Gordon


----------



## Sephiroth

Khaos said:


> Not at all! We've got enough passion to make this work.
> 
> Speaking of which, here's version 45,363,43634.2!
> 
> Lo-res shot here, linky to the PDF below. I'm trying new things...
> 
> image
> 
> Download me here > REV5.pdf <


Brilliant :notworthy:


----------



## reptile_man_08

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/off-topic-chat/562035-apa-fail-media.html


----------



## Khaos

paulds said:


> I am really happy with how this has taken off, it's a credit to the forum :2thumb:
> 
> 
> 
> My local one is on a corner to but being the subtle guy that I am managed to get questioned by the police and asked to delete my images of the store and am now effectively barred from enetering Lush : victory:


You could go back and state that you have been requested to provide evidence for the ASA

It's true! (Only we're requesting, not the ASA!)


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

That looks great  

Maybe photoshop the snake pic to level the background out? Not sure if it's possible, and I'm just picking at little things, but it'd look nicer if possible methinks.


----------



## Khaos

I'm also thinking we should make a Twitter tag - so we can potentially keep all the stories, news reports (hoping we get some) videos and everything linked.

What would we like for a tag?

#responsiblereptiles

#lovelizardsnotlush

#truthaboutreptiles

What do we think?


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

paulds said:


> My local one is on a corner to but being the subtle guy that I am managed to get questioned by the police and asked to delete my images of the store and am now effectively barred from enetering Lush : victory:


:lol2:

I'll use my ninja powers, they'll never see me coming, or going :whistling2:



Natrix said:


> Yes because the ASA will ask for evidence.
> 
> Gordon


Fair enough... will see what can do, if the posters are still up lol.


----------



## paulds

Khaos said:


> Not at all! We've got enough passion to make this work.
> 
> Speaking of which, here's version 45,363,43634.2!
> 
> Lo-res shot here, linky to the PDF below. I'm trying new things...
> 
> image
> 
> Download me here > REV5.pdf <


I think that is spot on :2thumb:

Very nice indeed : victory:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Khaos said:


> I'm also thinking we should make a Twitter tag - so we can potentially keep all the stories, news reports (hoping we get some) videos and everything linked.
> 
> What would we like for a tag?
> 
> #responsiblereptiles
> 
> #lovelizardsnotlush
> 
> *#truthaboutreptiles*
> 
> What do we think?


That one : victory:


----------



## Alfonzo

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> That one : victory:


Agreed, and :notworthy: thankies!


----------



## Khaos

Hmm, there's a Lush shop in Wimbledon, not far from the Kempton Show. Anyone fancy a trip....?


----------



## Dykie

The leaflet looks great.

I think that the green font still draws my eyes to the APA quotes rather than the facts but that may just be me.

When i printed it out the background of the snake comes out slightly gray again that may be my printer.

Fantastic work. Keep it up


----------



## paulds

Khaos said:


> You could go back and state that you have been requested to provide evidence for the ASA
> 
> It's true! (Only we're requesting, not the ASA!)


I explained that to the police last nigh and they were pretty good about it to be honest but the shop manager was close to exploding so they politely asked me to leave : victory:


----------



## Natrix

This is all great work guys, well done.

Can I add a little forward thinking here. This is not just about getting the Lush campaign stopped. The reality is that the ASA and other such groups move slowly on these occasions to make sure (quiet rightly) that they get it right. Therefore a short campaign like this is normally finished before it can be stopped. The achievement to be aimed at here is the longer term damage that will be done if the ASA finds that APA's statements are false. The stuff being used by Lush at the moment is a rehash of a report that appeared in the March 2001 edition of the BBC wildlife magazine which was written by Clifford Warwick. 

It was unofficially shown to be wrong 9 years ago and is still wrong today. Hopefully if the ASA find it to be wrong and state that as a fact, this will be the last time the Anti's can get away with using it.

Gordon


----------



## Ssthisto

Khaos said:


> Not at all! We've got enough passion to make this work.
> 
> Speaking of which, here's version 45,363,43634.2!
> 
> Lo-res shot here, linky to the PDF below. I'm trying new things...


Just a quickie - the quote should be "90% fewer prosecutions are _brought_ against reptile owners" - the word *brought*, not bought.


----------



## Graham

> there's a Lush shop in Wimbledon, not far from the Kempton Show


Apparently there's one in Kingston which is just a 15 minute drive...


----------



## paulds

Natrix said:


> This is all great work guys, well done.
> 
> Can I add a little forward thinking here. This is not just about getting the Lush campaign stopped. The reality is that the ASA and other such groups move slowly on these occasions to make sure (quiet rightly) that they get it right. Therefore a short campaign like this is normally finished before it can be stopped. The achievement to be aimed at here is the longer term damage that will be done if the ASA finds that APA's statements are false. The stuff being used by Lush at the moment is a rehash of a report that appeared in the March 2001 edition of the BBC wildlife magazine which was written by Clifford Warwick.
> 
> It was unofficially shown to be wrong 9 years ago and is still wrong today. Hopefully if the ASA find it to be wrong and state that as a fact, this will be the last time the Anti's can get away with using it.
> 
> Gordon


Seconded, hopefully this will serve to make more aware of the real threat the APA pose to the hobby.

There have been less and less reptile expo's over the recent years and the APA were instrumental in stopping my own local Maidstone show (combined with other factors).

Organisations such as the FBH have limited resources to fight back against these organisations which is why all of our support is so important :2thumb:


----------



## fiesta599

may i say i am really proud of everyone coming together on this topic.i saw the adverts outside lush yesterday and was appalled on what i saw,they tried giving me a leaflet but i just told them to piss off :blush:.ive just listened to the interview and may i say congratulations as you both held yourselves very well.at this moment in time im very proud to be a RFUK member.if anyone is doing a protest outside lush on fargate in sheffield goodluck and i really wish i could be there but im working until 3pm sat and all day sunday.if your still there after 3pm i will come and help hand out flyers as i have to walk past there to get my bus home.
keep up the good work


----------



## Khaos

Cracking. Will change it to 'brought'. Been staring at the thing for so long I'd lost that one....

I'll do another revision this evening. Til then I'll leave the thread to gather any other changes people have requested.

I'd certainly like to go visit the local LUSH and sound them out with my journalist hat (it has a dictaphone and notepad in it, metaphoricallly...) on.

Anyone game? Might be nice to take a couple of friendly lizards down!


----------



## paulds

fiesta599 said:


> may i say i am really proud of everyone coming together about this topic.i saw the adverts outside lush yesterday and was appalled on what i saw,they tried giving me a leaflet but i just told them to piss off:blush:.ive just listened to the interview and may i say congratulations as you held yourselves very well.at this moment in time im very proud to be a RFUK member.if anyone is doing a protest outside lush on fargate in sheffield goodluck and i really wish i could be there but im working until 3pm sat and all day sunday.if your still there after 3pm i will come and help hand out flyers as i have to walk past there to get my bus home.
> keep up the good work


You could be of even more help if you could get hold of a flier and pop it on here: victory:


----------



## paulds

Khaos said:


> Cracking. Will change it to 'brought'. Been staring at the thing for so long I'd lost that one....
> 
> I'll do another revision this evening. Til then I'll leave the thread to gather any other changes people have requested.
> 
> I'd certainly like to go visit the local LUSH and sound them out with my journalist hat (it has a dictaphone and notepad in it, metaphoricallly...) on.
> 
> Anyone game? Might be nice to take a couple of friendly lizards down!


I enjoyed a discussion in there with a couple of there clients on the weekend and the two customers I spoke with were very receptive, the staff just looked embarrassed.

I would strongly advise anyone against going to a Lush store with any reptiles though, not only do those places stink but taking reptiles out in what is a pretty cold summer, to a crowded place, where people could be scared of their presence, would not go well with our image of responsible keepers : victory:


----------



## Khaos

Oh, I've made the first post with the Twitter Hashtag #truthaboutreptiles - so if anyone uses it, or wants to start using it, please start spreading the word!


----------



## fiesta599

paulds said:


> You could be of even more help if you could get hold of a flier and pop it on here: victory:


 i will try and get one on my way into work tomorrow and scan it tomorrow night when i get home but it wont be until about 11pm.im kicking myself now.i should have took it when they offered it to me,i was just mad for what thery were doing and didnt think:blush:


----------



## Twiglet

Would the people who have put all the work into this flyer be happy for it to be used on keepers websites? 
If I get chance to go down town tomorrow I'll pick up some leaflets for the people requesting them.

Many thanks to the people who are working so hard on this. Its fantastic to see keepers banding together and making a difference rather than seeing the old apathetic behaviour of 'not my problem'. 
It seems we are all now realising how much this IS our problem. 
I am happy to give my full support in any way I can. We have a lush in High Wycombe. Anyone fancy handing out a couple of flyers with me?


Kat


----------



## Dykie

Khaos said:


> Anyone game? Might be nice to take a couple of friendly lizards down!


I wouldnt, those stores stink to high heaven i gag when i walk past dunno how a lizard would feel but cant be good :gasp:


----------



## Sephiroth

Twiglet said:


> Would the people who have put all the work into this flyer be happy for it to be used on keepers websites?


I'm sure everyone would be happy for it to have as much exposure as possible!

I'll get it on our notice boards once we have the final copy! :2thumb:

Great work Khaos!


----------



## andy007

Khaos said:


> Oh, I've made the first post with the Twitter Hashtag #truthaboutreptiles - so if anyone uses it, or wants to start using it, please start spreading the word!


Can't find it on twitter??


----------



## Khaos

Haha glad to hear you're back onboard the Khaoswagon, Sephiroth 

I'd love for it to be used anywhere and everywhere, down to cheap lizard substrate! Please try to hold off until we've given the forum ample time to add their input - then we'll run a final version past the Fellowship (Natrix, Sephiroth, Chris, Ssthisto and Alfonzo have been in on this from the start) then I'll put a new thread up with the final PDF printable version.

Hopefully one of the mods can make it a sticky at that point. I'll add the twitter hashtag to the flyer somewhere too.


----------



## Khaos

andy007 said:


> Can't find it on twitter??


I'm not actually sure how Twitter works, it's equally likely I've just sent my credit card details to Uzbekistan...

Anyone a member of the Twitterati able to help?


----------



## paulds

fiesta599 said:


> i will try and get one on my way into work tomorrow and scan it tomorrow night when i get home but it wont be until about 11pm.im kicking myself now.i should have took it when they offered it to me,i was just mad for what thery were doing and didnt think:blush:


 If you can get one on the way in that would be great.:notworthy:

Don't worry about not picking one up when they offered it to you, I find it hard not to walk into the store and take a big crap on the counter :whip:


----------



## David L

Khaos said:


> Oh, I've made the first post with the Twitter Hashtag #truthaboutreptiles - so if anyone uses it, or wants to start using it, please start spreading the word!


Can someone put it on Facebook as a Page?

We'll see how much support we can get through it... It would be nice to get more followers than lush....


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Khaos said:


> I'm not actually sure how Twitter works, it's equally likely I've just sent my credit card details to Uzbekistan...
> 
> Anyone a member of the Twitterati able to help?


Yeah it's not there...


----------



## andy007

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Yeah it's not there...


I can find "truthaboutASBO's" and "deepthroattruth" but no "truthaboutreptiles" :lol2:


----------



## shell2909

David L said:


> Can someone put it on Facebook as a Page?
> 
> We'll see how much support we can get through it... It would be nice to get more followers than lush....



I'll put on Lush's facebook page when the final has been drafted.
There are so many people on there already having their heads filled with this Cham campaign:bash:


----------



## Sephiroth

Stuck it on the homepage of Reptile Zones :2thumb:

Reptile Zones - The UK Reptile Directory

I can replace the pdf when the final version is ready


----------



## shell2909

Sephiroth said:


> Stuck it on the homepage of Reptile Zones :2thumb:
> 
> Reptile Zones - The UK Reptile Directory
> 
> I can replace the pdf when the final version is ready



Looking good Mike


----------



## Khaos

Bah. Can someone else making this #truthaboutreptiles thing work? I'm about ready to introduce Mr Laptop to Senor Flight of Stairs


----------



## Ssthisto

Khaos said:


> Bah. Can someone else making this #truthaboutreptiles thing work? I'm about ready to introduce Mr Laptop to Senor Flight of Stairs


You actually have to "tweet" with the #truthaboutreptiles in it.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Khaos said:


> Bah. Can someone else making this #truthaboutreptiles thing work? I'm about ready to introduce Mr Laptop to Senor Flight of Stairs





Ssthisto said:


> You actually have to "tweet" with the #truthaboutreptiles in it.


Just tried to set it up, and the name is too long...

Truthaboutherps or truthaboutreps? 

Or... ?


----------



## Sephiroth

YAY!!! My girlfriend wins the internet!!!!!!

She just went to one of their stores and is now in possession of not only some of their leaflets but also a copy of the Lush times complete with chameleon article!!!!!!

:no1::no1::no1::no1::no1: :no1:

That's ASA sorted!

Love you honey!!!


----------



## Asha

Well done guys!! 

Is the last one posted the final version of the flier now?

I'm free most days if anyone fancies joining me at Hanley Lush.


----------



## Khaos

#reptilestruth?

And Sephi, top work from Mrs Roth there!


----------



## andy007

There is a discussion on the Lush Facebook too

Chameleon Campaign | Facebook


----------



## Chameleon Col

Hi, I can't get to either of the venue's up north, but I wish you and everyone at the venue's my 100% SUPPORT, WHO THE HELL DO THESE IDIOTS THINK THEY ARE? THEY PROB. DON'T KNOW F***-ALL ABOUT REPTILES, (IN MY CASE, CHAMELEON BREEDER)
What is there problem, these people? always want to spoil it for the people who love the enjoyment and preservation of CAPTIVE BRED REPTILES, (THE MAJORITY.)
If it was'nt for Reptile keepers, half of todays reps. would have gone with the dinosaurs. Reps.are one of the world's biggest hobbies today, and still growing in popularity. Captive bred reps. are on the increase, so less are being taken from the wild. But to captive breed, some MUST be taken from the wild to start with, as with all animal species. 
I WISH THESE SO CALLED ANTI-REP. "IDIOTS" WOULD GET A PROPER JOB, AND LEAVE US TO ENJOY OUR REPTILE KEEPING. 

"THEY MAKE ME SICK, LEAVE US REP. KEEPERS ALONE", WE WON'T SIT BACK AND TAKE THEIR CRAP, IT'S ABOUT TIME REP. KEEPERS STOOD UP TO THEM" 

ALL THE VERY BEST WITH YOUR CAMPAIGN "Sephiroth",

Regards, and Support, Col.


----------



## paulds

Sephiroth said:


> YAY!!! My girlfriend wins the internet!!!!!!
> 
> She just went to one of their stores and is now in possession of not only some of their leaflets but also a copy of the Lush times complete with chameleon article!!!!!!
> 
> :no1::no1::no1::no1::no1: :no1:
> 
> That's ASA sorted!
> 
> Love you honey!!!


Your GF rocks, can you get it posted on here???:notworthy:


----------



## paulds

andy007 said:


> There is a discussion on the Lush Facebook too
> 
> Chameleon Campaign | Facebook


Hey, just had a look and it's quite cool to see the chats you guy's have been having with Lush's rep.

I haven't been as mature in my approach to the argument here but R FUK em :whip:


----------



## Chameleon Col

As a Chameleon Breeder, they make me want to puke, I wish the "Lush Times" would "GO FORTH AND MULTIPLY" if you get what I mean?. 

Col. (CHAMELEON BREEDER, FOREVER!!!)


----------



## excession

Guys, guys!


You can ADD photos to their FACE BOOK PAGE!!

Lets all add photos of our happy well cared for reptiles!!!
:lol2: :2thumb: :no1: :lol2: :2thumb: 

Just added a few, going to add a load more now!!

Videos too!!!

HAPPY DAYS


----------



## Tillies reptile rescue

What fantastic work everyone has done, is there a facebook group or anything for this ??? ....Im dumb when it comes to twitter lol 
Once final flyer is done I will send it out to people on our emailing lists and if anything in the cambs area is happening then let me know, also if we can do anything to help let us know


----------



## Chameleon Col

Hahahahaha...LUV IT "Excession", good idea mate. Sorry, but they just BOIL MY BLOOD!, I hope I never bump into any of their supporters, I WILL TEND TO DISAGREE WITH THEM VERY HARSHLY, (hehehehehe....)


----------



## excession

All those new photos on there are mine! Need more people to add pictures 

I ran out of reptile pics so added a parrot.


----------



## paulds

This FB thing is a giggle, I am speaking with a Catriona something or another and she is a tool : victory:


----------



## excession

paulds said:


> This FB thing is a giggle, I am speaking with a Catriona something or another and she is a tool : victory:


I am joining in a little now 

I am Matt


----------



## paulds

excession said:


> I am joining in a little now
> 
> I am Matt


Nice one Matt :2thumb:


----------



## Tillies reptile rescue

thing to remember is some people....like that woman on there moaning about breeding for pets....simply wont have there mindds changed or even listen to what people have to say as they always like to think they are correct :bash::bash:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Just tried to set it up, and the name is too long...
> 
> Truthaboutherps or truthaboutreps?
> 
> Or... ?





Khaos said:


> #*reptilestruth*?
> 
> And Sephi, top work from Mrs Roth there!


HAHAHA! love the facebook stuff  

twitter is up and running!!! 

I'm happy to share the password with a couple of people so they can keep it up to date too (likely I'll forget lol) PM me


----------



## ilovemary

every1 comment on Lush Cosmetics help to campaign against keeping reptiles as pets they need to no the facts first


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

excession said:


> Guys, guys!
> 
> 
> You can ADD photos to their FACE BOOK PAGE!!
> 
> Lets all add photos of our happy well cared for reptiles!!!
> :lol2: :2thumb: :no1: :lol2: :2thumb:
> 
> Just added a few, going to add a load more now!!
> 
> Videos too!!!
> 
> HAPPY DAYS


You have to like the page though.... and I don't like them.


----------



## andy007

You don't have to "like" Lush to comment on the discussion page:whistling2:


----------



## andy007

And what's the darn twitter name, still can't find it:blush:


----------



## Khaos

I've just posted on Sarah Irvine's comment on the Lush page. Bring it on!

Ninja, can you PM me the password? Thanks fella


----------



## andy007

They deleted my posts:whip: And I wasn't even rude:whip:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

andy007 said:


> You don't have to "like" Lush to comment on the discussion page:whistling2:





andy007 said:


> And what's the darn twitter name, still can't find it:blush:


Do to spam them with photos though... I have 600ish I could use...  

ReptileTruth, included it in the 1st tweet so should be searchable :2thumb:

I'll add others names to it as they become "mods" if they like lol. (Or i suppose they could do it themselves xD)

Edit: Hope this works... 
https://twitter.com/ReptilesTruth


----------



## andy007

Re: the Lush page - I think some people should think before posting:bash: One of the posts is really OTT and is not the way to gain any respect from anyone.


----------



## Chameleon Col

"WELL, IT'S NOT ME" hehehe... BUT SOMETIMES, YOU HAVE TO FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE, I HAVE HAD MY FARE SHARE IN THE PAST.

Col.


----------



## andy007

Tweeted:2thumb:


----------



## Tillies reptile rescue

Have made a few comments about this on my own FB page and suprised how many people who are non reptile keepers are asking about it and are honestly interested.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

andy007 said:


> Tweeted:2thumb:


Whoop lol.... 

It's at 2!! xD : victory:


----------



## Meko

andy007 said:


> Re: the Lush page - I think some people should think before posting:bash: One of the posts is really OTT and is not the way to gain any respect from anyone.


that's part of the problem with defending reptiles. If you take this forum for a reference point and look at a lot of posts and threads about pet shops, bad owners and the like, you get a load of ranting and :devil: and morons going on with themselves.
Too many people on here are worse than the people you're 'fighting'. With protests and comments pages you're leaving yourself open to the militant and socially retarded people coming along and spoiling what you're trying to do. Unless you can vet people first they can do more harm than good.


----------



## andy007

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Whoop lol....
> 
> It's at 2!! xD : victory:


Us against the world:2thumb: Viva le revolution:lol2:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

andy007 said:


> Us against the world:2thumb: Viva le revolution:lol2:


Bring it on!!!!!! :lol2:

They don't stand a chance :whistling2:


----------



## Alfonzo

Sephiroth, just a thought, but the comments on the photo of your albino tic probably won't do us any favours...


----------



## Sephiroth

haha... uploaded some photos and a video to the facebook page!

fun! :lol2:

http://www.facebook.com/lush.co.uk?ref=ts


----------



## Sephiroth

Alfonzo said:


> Sephiroth, just a thought, but the comments on the photo of your albino tic probably won't do us any favours...


cheers! they're gone!


----------



## Chris Newman

Khaos said:


> Not at all! We've got enough passion to make this work.
> 
> Speaking of which, here's version 45,363,43634.2!
> 
> Lo-res shot here, linky to the PDF below. I'm trying new things...
> 
> image
> 
> Download me here > REV5.pdf <


This is looking absolutely excellent, well done everyone. My only concern is the second section on imports – this might be misleading! The numbers claimed imported by the APA are wrong, that is beyond doubt. However, the numbers we quoted are for an earlier period, it could be claimed we are misleading people!!! The numbers on chameleons are correct, and for last years, it’s just the data. 

I have also been informed that Lush have withdrawn the leaflets from stores, not 100% certain this is true, would be worth finding out!!


----------



## Sephiroth

Chris Newman said:


> This is looking absolutely excellent, well done everyone. My only concern is the second section on imports – this might be misleading! The numbers claimed imported by the APA are wrong, that is beyond doubt. However, the numbers we quoted are for an earlier period, it could be claimed we are misleading people!!! The numbers on chameleons are correct, and for last years, it’s just the data.
> 
> I have also been informed that Lush have withdrawn the leaflets from stores, not 100% certain this is true, would be worth finding out!!


Managed to get some leaflets and the magazine from the York store today :2thumb:


----------



## Ant and Soph

Added my part, (facebook discussion that is, convo moved along a bit while I was posting lol) please dont feel Im against us for pointing out the recent rescue animal, I just felt it actually helps to defend our corner to point out that we take it upon ourselves to help the mistreated reptiles often costing ourselves a lot of money in vet bills. Although it points out a case of animal mistreatment it also points out how we felt it was our duty to solve it and that we are not the cold-hearted people we are being displayed as


----------



## wohic

Chris Newman said:


> This is looking absolutely excellent, well done everyone. My only concern is the second section on imports – this might be misleading! The numbers claimed imported by the APA are wrong, that is beyond doubt. However, the numbers we quoted are for an earlier period, it could be claimed we are misleading people!!! The numbers on chameleons are correct, and for last years, it’s just the data.
> 
> I have also been informed that Lush have withdrawn the leaflets from stores, not 100% certain this is true, would be worth finding out!!



that would be a major victory if true !


----------



## Chris Newman

Sephiroth said:


> Managed to get some leaflets and the magazine from the York store today :2thumb:


Well done...


----------



## Chris Newman

wohic said:


> that would be a major victory if true !


Let’s look at all the facts first before making any celebrations, personally I don’t think for a moment that Lush has the slightest interest in this as an actual campaign – they are just looking for cheep advertising. I strongly suspect they have been stung by all the adverse publicity and loss of customers……….


----------



## Graham

Probably right, when it comes down to it they're in it to make a profit, if they alienate their natural allies by aligning themselves with the wrong organisations and running the wrong campaigns then their profits will suffer.


----------



## Ant and Soph

Seemed a lot of members on here have purchased from them in the past too so they have probably done just that very well, the amount of people on here who use them was a surprise so to imagine how many of the 1 million reptile keepers they just drove out of their customer base, its probably been a pretty bad week for them to say the least, not to mention it appears they had vandalism at some shops, although not the way to get the message across, it would appear they are now quite aware of the number of people they are alienating and infuriating due to all the many ways we have been striking back.

Half the facebook page is pro-reptile and has specific discussion boards, they had countless emails, an pro-reptile protest outside the shops this weekend, and a radio interview which didnt go their way at all, and cant begin to imagine the amount of people who complained or disagreed in store, I should think the message is going to be getting through very shortly, beside the fact its only a week long campaign I doubt they will back this again without hesitance.

Totally agree it seems just a good way to get sale of the chameleon bath bombs up, and would be surprised if they had any interest in reps at all as the lush representatives clearly have no understanding of them or their needs at all and are making un-educated assumptions from only the outside point of view


----------



## Pete Q

Khaos said:


> Guys,
> 
> The campaign letter/flyer is looking good. One thing I want to do is have every hard-hitting fact backed up and proven.
> 
> So can you lovely people find me some stats on the following:
> 
> 
> “Six million reptiles were imported into the EU last year and almost 200,000 arrived in Britain from outside of the EU.” – Lush & the APA
> 
> These figures are inaccurate and misleading, as numbers imported were significantly lower. In fact, 90% of reptiles in the pet trade are bred in captivity, not wild collected.
> 
> (Do we have actual numbers?)
> 
> “Most Wild Caught Reptiles Die
> Within The First Year.” – Lush & the APA
> 
> The truth is that reptiles kept in captivity are likely to live twice as long as their wild counterparts.
> 
> (I've heard this before. Can anyone suggest a study or report to back it up?)
> 
> Thanks
> 
> K.


As far as I no, the APA don't even mention about wild caught when they talk about reptiles living in captivity, they just say most reptiles die within the first year and then go on to say reptiles can live / suffer in captivity for many years. 
:hmm:


----------



## Sephiroth

Here are scannings from the media taken from their York store today.

ImageShack Album - 6 images


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Sephiroth said:


> Here are scannings from the media taken from their York store today.
> 
> ImageShack Album - 6 images


Nice, cheers :2thumb:

The APA aren't a charity right? 

And their who lush is donating too yes? I forget and can't find the info now...


----------



## andy007

Here's the latest news from the APA website

"_The Lush campaign features in-store parties aimed at under 12-yr olds with a reptile quiz, arts and crafts, and information to take away about why reptiles don't make good pets_."

Targeting kids:whip:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Low that one is... Base, low tactics.... Gr.


----------



## Ant and Soph

This is more than low, if this is going to the ASA then this needs to be highlighted a lot when its done, Attempting to educate children with information that is proven wrong is looked down upon...very badly too. Also the press would lap that bit up, taking this info to the other lush threads if you dont mind


----------



## andy007

I agree Ant & Soph: victory:


----------



## Sephiroth

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Nice, cheers :2thumb:
> 
> The APA aren't a charity right?
> 
> And their who lush is donating too yes? I forget and can't find the info now...


APA Ltd aren't a charity... even that is on their website... there is not charity regestration number for them

However APA Foundation _is _a charity... but it isn't the foundations goal to stop people keeping reptiles... otherwise it couldn't be a charity because that's political :whistling2:

quote from their website



> Animal Protection Agency (APA) Ltd A large part of the work of APA is* to lobby for improved legislation* to protect animal welfare. We oppose the activities of individuals or companies involved in the trade in wild animals as pets and we expose the wasteful practices and consequences of the wildlife trade. By working alongside government agencies and local authorities, and by building public support and awareness, APA seeks to end the cruel confinement of wild animals as pets.


then the APA foundation's description is completely different is completely different

Animal Protection Agency


----------



## Khaos

Righto gang. I think we've established, broadly, that the flyer is pretty much there. I'm with Chris on his comments about the import numbers being for a slightly older period but, to be honest, the argument in our favour is so compelling I'd be happy for us to start trying to pass this around. How do we feel about that?


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Cool, thank you Seph, Khaos, last version I saw looked great, its amazing what you managed to come up with so quickly  

If anyone wants in on the twitter access, do say btw.


----------



## andy007

Twitter link in my sig: victory:


----------



## Ant and Soph

Are there any other largely popular reptile based forums we could be spreading the word to by any chance? I know this is the biggest by far but still the more people who express their views the better


----------



## andy007

I believe there is talk on captivebred


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

andy007 said:


> Twitter link in my sig: victory:





andy007 said:


> I believe there is talk on captivebred


Awesome, nice idea, will put it in mine xD 

Shall have a looksie at CB...


----------



## andy007

Can't post link as its another forum, but its in the FBH section


----------



## Pete Q

Wow, just got through this thread, great job everyone.


----------



## kumqat

Fantastic work guys but some of the comments on Lush facebook page are not doing the campaign any favours at all. Although the comment by Matt about the chameleon bomb smelling of lies and deciet may be inappropriate but it did make me chuckle. Could anyone posting on there PLEASE stick to the facts presented in this thread and refrain from childish and nasty comments. :2thumb:


----------



## excession

Sorry I couldnt help my self there... 


But I was right tho!!


----------



## Sephiroth

excession said:


> Sorry I couldnt help my self there...
> 
> 
> But I was right tho!!


I giggled :lol2:


----------



## kumqat

excession said:


> Sorry I couldnt help my self there...
> 
> 
> But I was right tho!!


Not reffering to your comment in particular as i found it quite amusing but some of the other comments (by others) are a little over the top. Am loving the fact that some of the Lushies are getting irate about the reptile keepers invasion of there passion. Now they know what it feels like.: victory:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Sure they loved the mass spamming of photos from some silent reptile keeper *cough*

the flier... A point on facebook was made which I think is pretty relevant, the fact they claim so many die in transit is clearly wrong, and this is probably one of the anti's main points, yet on the flier it isn't the first thing mentioned... can I suggest the order is changed around a bit, so this is (quite important) bit is clearly pointed out to be wrong?


----------



## EquineArcher

Hey, the flyer looks great- do we have a hard and fast version of it yet that we all agree on and can be printed off?

I can get to the Aberdeen Lush at some stage, but probably not till next Sunday. If any other local rep keepers want to go to that would be great, I'm not sure if I could get anyone else to go with me and I don't want to be started on by an angry anti!!


----------



## Khaos

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Sure they loved the mass spamming of photos from some silent reptile keeper *cough*
> 
> the flier... A point on facebook was made which I think is pretty relevant, the fact they claim so many die in transit is clearly wrong, and this is probably one of the anti's main points, yet on the flier it isn't the first thing mentioned... can I suggest the order is changed around a bit, so this is (quite important) bit is clearly pointed out to be wrong?


Definitely, we'll put this on tomorrow's final revision.

So if only 10% of reptiles are imported, and 0.5% die in transit, that means only 0.05% of reptiles don't make it. No number is a good number, but that is a very small percentage.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Don't think theres one yet no... Though ther current version is pretty much it I think  

Your a bit far away for me xD


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Khaos said:


> Definitely, we'll put this on tomorrow's final revision.
> 
> So if only 10% of reptiles are imported, and 0.5% die in transit, that means only 0.05% of reptiles don't make it. No number is a good number, but that is a very small percentage.


Awesome :no1:

Yeah, it's about 100x less than the APA's percentage too :lol2:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

... it's gone all quiet!! lol.


----------



## southpython

Here is lush in croydon. If someone else would help me out there then id gladly hand them out.

Lush Cosmetics Croydon - Croydon Vegetarians (& Vegans) Events

CR0 1UG, not far from purley.

:2thumb:


----------



## Asha

What's with the salmonella scare section of the APA leaflet?!!



> Most reptiles carry salmonella bacteria. Following the deaths of two babies in the UK from contact with salmonella-infected reptiles, the Department of Health issued a warning that children under five, pregnant women, the elderly and anyone who is immuno-compromised should avoid all contact with reptiles.
> 
> REMEMBER THE REPTILE RISKS!
> Salmonella bacteria from reptiles are significantly different to salmonella found in foods and are much more harmful to humans. And because reptiles regularly excrete their bacteria, it spreads easily, you don't even have to touch the reptile to get sick! Contact the Department of Health for guidance and make sure you follow it!


I'm not even sure how much of that is true?!! :gasp:


----------



## Ant and Soph

Asha said:


> What's with the salmonella scare section of the APA leaflet?!!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not even sure how much of that is true?!! :gasp:


lol not much by the looks of it, peices of it are accurate however the majority is just an exaggeration of the true situation


----------



## bothrops

I am overwhelmed by the 30+ pages of the reptile community pulling together and maturely and professionally pulling together to perform a well organised and targeted campaign.....: victory::no1::notworthy:



..then I pop onto the LUSH discussion board and despite the majority continuing that stance we have a couple of completely misguided idiots messing it all up for us.

Is *'Jordan Mottram'* on here?...if you are then this is for you...


Congratulations on single handedly destroying 90% of the hard work of the rest of us. Your rants and swearing, and completely misguided posts have alienated the LUSH fans, put all their backs up and destroyed any receptibility they may have had (are you sure you're not Clifford Warwick or Elaine Tolland...) the emoticons :devil: , :bash:, :whip: and :censor: are not nearly strong enough to express how angry and disappointed I am with your actions. Shame on you.


----------



## Ant and Soph

hopefully even lush are not stupid enough to think that he speaks for the rest of us who have been speaking to them in a good manner, Saying that they were happy to generalise us in the first place...:bash:


----------



## rum&coke

One thing worth thinking about for people who are planning on going to the stores to protest and hand out flyer's is that the party's and things LUSH are organizing are for kids, now if anyone kicks of or things get out of hand its gonna make us look like the bad guys out to scare children so anyone going to the stores keep that in mind the enemy is the APA not LUSH or there customers or any kids that may be at the stores.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Exactly, the bulk of the response has been brilliant, and I'm quite proud of how well put together this has all been, except for a certain few...



Ant and Soph said:


> hopefully even lush are not stupid enough to think that he speaks for the rest of us who have been speaking to them in a good manner, Saying that they were happy to generalise us in the first place...:bash:


Yeah, their PR people will take anything negative and turn it round so it works for them, as Bothrops said, if we can't keep it civil, we wont ever get anywhere. bad manners and language will just get everyone tarnished with the same brush. 

So boys and girls, stay civil!! Its not much to ask now is it?


----------



## Zak

bothrops said:


> I am overwhelmed by the 30+ pages of the reptile community pulling together and maturely and professionally pulling together to perform a well organised and targeted campaign.....: victory::no1::notworthy:
> 
> 
> 
> ..then I pop onto the LUSH discussion board and despite the majority continuing that stance we have a couple of completely misguided idiots messing it all up for us.
> 
> Is *'Jordan Mottram'* on here?...if you are then this is for you...
> 
> 
> Congratulations on single handedly destroying 90% of the hard work of the rest of us. Your rants and swearing, and completely misguided posts have alienated the LUSH fans, put all their backs up and destroyed any receptibility they may have had (are you sure you're not Clifford Warwick or Elaine Tolland...) the emoticons :devil: , :bash:, :whip: and :censor: are not nearly strong enough to express how angry and disappointed I am with your actions. Shame on you.


Thankyou. I too was surprised by how well it was all going, how a flyer actually came together and was constructed by many people each bringing their own expertise to the game. Maybe its the cynic in me but i knew it wouldnt last.

Its not just Jordan, the blatant spamming of the Lush FB and twitter will only sway people on the fence towards the anti's. Right now we stand to lose alot and gain very little, if anything, if certain people dont reign themselves in. The hard work and hours put in by people on this board, preparing arguements with facts and figures is being thrown away in seconds by illiterate fools who'd rather swear and alienate the target audience.


----------



## Zak

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Exactly, the bulk of the response has been brilliant, and I'm quite proud of how well put together this has all been, except for a certain few...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, their PR people will take anything negative and turn it round so it works for them, as Bothrops said, if we can't keep it civil, we wont ever get anywhere. bad manners and language will just get everyone tarnished with the same brush.
> 
> So boys and girls, stay civil!! Its not much to ask now is it?


Echoed. As we write this i wouldnt be surprised if theres some stressed APA/Lush workers doing exactly the same to counter anything we produce. The APA make their fortunes from twisting statements and will happily jump on anything the reptile community and keepers do that the public could percieve in a bad light. Wouldn't surprise me if they dont release a press statement saying they're being harrassed and shops are being vandalised because of their ethical campaign.


----------



## rum&coke

I did post on the LUSH facebook page but don't think I went over the top and certainly did not swear or insult anyone. To be fair I think it made a few LUSH customers question the campaign rather than just accept it as a just cause without looking into it. I think LUSH and the APA will slaughter any approach done in the official way as thats what they specialize in and pay people to do. But yeah I agree people going in ranting and raving at the LUSH customers are not going to help at all.


----------



## Ant and Soph

Zak said:


> Echoed. As we write this i wouldnt be surprised if theres some stressed APA/Lush workers doing exactly the same to counter anything we produce. The APA make their fortunes from twisting statements and will happily jump on anything the reptile community and keepers do that the public could percieve in a bad light. Wouldn't surprise me if they dont release a press statement saying they're being harrassed and shops are being vandalised because of their ethical campaign.


Carefull what you say mate, wouldnt be surprised if they have been watching our threads and we dont want to give them ideas, not that your point isnt extremely valid, totally agree with you


----------



## Zak

Ant and Soph said:


> Carefull what you say mate, wouldnt be surprised if they have been watching our threads and we dont want to give them ideas, not that your point isnt extremely valid, totally agree with you


I couldnt give the APA ideas if i tried, theyve got some very very imaginative people in their employment.


----------



## Ant and Soph

very true, the idea of using actual truth and facts is pretty unethical in their views anyway lol


----------



## Natrix

Asha said:


> What's with the salmonella scare section of the APA leaflet?!!
> I'm not even sure how much of that is true?!! :gasp:


I'm not even sure where to start on this one. Yes there is a risk of catching salmonella from reptiles but the fact is you can catch salmonella from anything. That key board in front of you will have salmonella bugs lurking in it, feeding on bits of skin and crumbs of food that have been dropped onto it. Further more, every living thing you have ever met, including all the human ones, will at some time have been carrying and pooing salmonella bugs.
The antis (not just APA) have used peoples fear of things like salmonella to create a mini panic about the small potential risk of contracting it from reptiles. The problem now is that a lot of medical people will when presented with a reptile keeping patient that is suffering from salmonella (which we all get a dose of at some point from the food we eat) blame the reptiles. This is rather unfair as the reptiles stand just as much chance of contracting salmonella from their owner as the owner has of catching it from the reptile. 
There has been a number of cases where reptiles have been blamed for a salmonella infection but most (if not all) have either been unproven or at best just shown that the person and the reptile both had the same infection, which doesn't tell us who infected who. 
When these cases arrise just as with any other potential health risk, the Government issues a warning telling people with immunity problems, babies and the very old to avoid situations where they might encounter the risk. This is aimed at those mentioned, not the rest of us with normal immune systems. 
The clever angle taken by the antis is to just tell us about the possible Reptile related cases in isolation and highlight the standard Government health warning as if it was issued as a special warning because of the high risk. People see that two babies died and read about the health warning and are horrified. But when you look at the whole picture and consider that multiple babies die every day of the year from all sorts of ailments including non reptile related salmonella then suddenly the tiny percentage that die due to a possible reptile related salmonella aren't quiet the pandemic that the antis are suggesting.

Please don't get me wrong any chance of infection should be avoided and the death of any one is one too many but the informed medical view point is that simply washing your hands after working with any type of animals will remove nearly all the risk infection involved.

Gordon


----------



## Ant and Soph

Natrix said:


> I'm not even sure where to start on this one. Yes there is a risk of catching salmonella from reptiles but the fact is you can catch salmonella from anything. That key board in front of you will have salmonella bugs lurking in it, feeding on bits of skin and crumbs of food that have been dropped onto it. Further more, every living thing you have ever met, including all the human ones, will at some time have been carrying and pooing salmonella bugs.
> The antis (not just APA) have used peoples fear of things like salmonella to create a mini panic about the small potential risk of contracting it from reptiles. The problem now is that a lot of medical people will when presented with a reptile keeping patient that is suffering from salmonella (which we all get a dose of at some point from the food we eat) blame the reptiles. This is rather unfair as the reptiles stand just as much chance of contracting salmonella from their owner as the owner has of catching it from the reptile.
> There has been a number of cases where reptiles have been blamed for a salmonella infection but most (if not all) have either been unproven or at best just shown that the person and the reptile both had the same infection, which doesn't tell us who infected who.
> When these cases arrise just as with any other potential health risk, the Government issues a warning telling people with immunity problems, babies and the very old to avoid situations where they might encounter the risk. This is aimed at those mentioned, not the rest of us with normal immune systems.
> The clever angle taken by the antis is to just tell us about the possible Reptile related cases in isolation and highlight the standard Government health warning as if it was issued as a special warning because of the high risk. People see that two babies died and read about the health warning and are horrified. But when you look at the whole picture and consider that multiple babies die every day of the year from all sorts of ailments including non reptile related salmonella then suddenly the tiny percentage that die due to a possible reptile related salmonella aren't quiet the pandemic that the antis are suggesting.
> 
> Please don't get me wrong any chance of infection should be avoided and the death of any one is one too many but the informed medical view point is that simply washing your hands after working with any type of animals will remove nearly all the risk infection involved.
> 
> Gordon


Perhaps it would be worth mentioning in the leaflet then the amount of dog owners who play with their dogs getting saliva on their hands, and some that even let them lick their face, are at a much larger risk, might not be any use at all lol, its late and im tired but thought id mention it, if nothing else it may make a few people more wary of being so unhygenic around canines


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

rum&coke said:


> I did post on the LUSH facebook page but don't think I went over the top and certainly did not swear or insult anyone. To be fair I think it made a few LUSH customers question the campaign rather than just accept it as a just cause without looking into it. I think LUSH and the APA will slaughter any approach done in the official way as thats what they specialize in and pay people to do. But yeah I agree people going in ranting and raving at the LUSH customers are not going to help at all.


It already hasn't helped... see the posts under the flier in the photos. I posted back about it, but the attitude from some has already put people off.


----------



## Natrix

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> It already hasn't helped... see the posts under the flier in the photos. I posted back about it, but the attitude from some has already put people off.


I think some of them may still be a bit upset from the recent forum invasion by the country side alliance members. Remember we are not the first to go into their soapy little world and burst their bubbles. 

Reading their replies I suspect many of these aren't the type of people that do a lot of thinking for themselves and our constant questioning of what they have just accepted as truth is causing them to use parts of their brains that they have forgotten they had. 

That's no reason to stop though and the more we shower them with facts the harder they are going to find it to ignore the truth.

Just keep it polite.

Gordon


----------



## Natrix

Just spotted a page on the countryside alliance page devoted to the Lush anti hunt campaign.
Countryside Alliance - Let Lush know - blog

It is worth having a read to see what they got up to. Remember they got the Lush anti hunt campaign banned by the ASA.

Also look for the automated reply they were getting from Lush......Look a bit familiar?

Gordon


----------



## rum&coke

That is the thing you have to remember with these people, I was 100% for the hunting ban but at the same time there were people out there who was in it just for the fight just because they like to campaign against things and make a name for them selfs, they are like posh football hooligans all they need is a vaguely good cause to justify the fight. Now its no surprise that the APA people are from that back ground. This is partly why I don't think you can ever beat these people in a fair way. If you win they disband and come back with a new name if they get lucky and go unchallenged and gain support then ultimately we lose our pets. The only way you can beat these people is to win the battles as they happen they prey on public support so the only way to beat them is to expose them for what they are. Fighting them in the official way the best you can hope for is them scrapping the APA and coming back with a different name. Expose the people behind it to the public and company's they use for support is the only way to stop them for good. It only takes the press to get behind them and we can look forward to bans and restrictions.


----------



## Ant and Soph

After reading that I feel even if we 'win' this, we are far from done with lush, Personally I feel they actually intently support extremist groups, and if we get this win, feel we should see if the countryside alliance would be willing to push out to the press again, having the second dose of press coverage may give us a chance to highlight lush's intentions as a company (due to their partnerships) and the people who they support. Its only an idea but really I feel it wont be long until they assault another group with lies


----------



## Sephiroth

just a little thought guys... might not be a good idea to wear any leather tomorrow :whistling2:


----------



## Pete Q

In case I have missed this and likely I'm abit late on the leaflet.
When people read this many will ask themselfs why would lush and the APA lie ? have we covered this ? reasons being this is an animal rights agenda for them, not animal welfare, and lets let everyone no that all pet keeping is under threat on the leaflet.
If we want to win the hearts and minds of non reptile keepers, this would be a good way to do that.


----------



## bradhadair

Think tigercookie and I might go shopping in Bristol on sat or sun... anyone fancy joining us?? Probably gonna take a huge wad of printed paper with me :whistling2::lol2: pm me if your interested :2thumb:

Massively upset by this cos I love their products, but between this, finding out about the anti hunting (and discovering that some of their products contain CARCINOGENS:naughty I will never ever buy again from them 

:grouphug: to you all : victory:


----------



## paulds

Natrix said:


> I think some of them may still be a bit upset from the recent forum invasion by the country side alliance members. Remember we are not the first to go into their soapy little world and burst their bubbles.
> 
> Reading their replies I suspect many of these aren't the type of people that do a lot of thinking for themselves and our constant questioning of what they have just accepted as truth is causing them to use parts of their brains that they have forgotten they had.
> 
> That's no reason to stop though and the more we shower them with facts the harder they are going to find it to ignore the truth.
> 
> Just keep it polite.
> 
> Gordon


Definitely do not let facebook put you off of protesting, these are just people who are looking for an argument over soap.

I received further communication from the ASA this morning (which I will keep private for now) but lets just say we ARE getting somewhere fast : victory:



Ant and Soph said:


> *After reading that I feel even if we 'win' this, we are far from done with lush, Personally I feel they actually intently support extremist groups,* and if we get this win, feel we should see if the countryside alliance would be willing to push out to the press again, having the second dose of press coverage may give us a chance to highlight lush's intentions as a company (due to their partnerships) and the people who they support. Its only an idea but really I feel it wont be long until they assault another group with lies


This was an added comment I put to the ASA representitive, I have been dealing with this morning.

I went into a bit of detail about them supporting these campaigns to portray themselves as an "ethical" company and then questioned the ethics about inviting children into store where their campaign could possibly provoke a violent reaction?



Sephiroth said:


> just a little thought guys... might not be a good idea to wear any leather tomorrow :whistling2:


 Damn, I dont own any other thongs :bash:


----------



## Chameleon Col

I agree with "Rum and Coke"(above) we have to expose these people for what they are, they like to prey on members of the public, they ARE modern day posh footy hooligans,(I should know, from the 70's, been there, done it, got the t-shirt, at footy matches) 
Footy Hooligans crave for media attention, more agro, the better, get well known, get a hard reputation. Reptile keepers "MUST" keep as much pressure on these individuals as possible. WE MUST FIGHT THEM ALL THE WAY, THEY WILL FINISH OFF RETILE KEEPERS IF WE LET THEM, then find someone else to have a pop at.


----------



## paulds

Here is a list of Lush stores. If we can put our names next to the ones we can cover, well it will give us an idea of wheres covered :blush:

*MyShops*

For all the latest news and events, click your local MyShop below.
*Click* to view our international shops.
ABCDEGHIKLMNOPRSTVWY

myShop pageAberdeen
myShop pageBath
myShop pageBirmingham
myShop pageBolton
myShop pageBraehead
myShop pageBristol
myShop pageBuchanan St, Glasgow
myShop pageCardiff
myShop pageChelmsford
myShop pageChester
myShop pageColchester
myShop pageCovent Garden
myShop pageCrawley
myShop pageDerby
myShop pageDundee
myShop pageExeter
myShop pageGrafton Street, Dublin
myShop pageHanley
myShop pageHenry Street, Dublin
myShop pageHull
myShop pageKings Road
myShop pageLakeside
myShop pageLeicester
myShop pageLiverpool
myShop pageLuton
myShop pageManchester
myShop pageManchester, Trafford Centre
myShop pageMerry Hill
myShop pageMilton Keynes
myShop pageNorthampton
myShop pageNottingham
myShop pagePeterborough
myShop pagePoole
myShop pagePortsmouth
myShop pageReading
myShop pageRomford
myShop pageSheffield
myShop pageSouth Molton Street
myShop pageStratford
myShop pageSwindon
myShop pageTelford
myShop pageVictoria Station
myShop pageWatford
myShop pageWimbledon
myShop pageWorcester

myShop pageBasingstoke
myShop pageBelfast
myShop pageBluewater
myShop pageBournemouth
myShop pageBrighton
myShop pageBromley
myShop pageCambridge
myShop pageCarlisle
myShop pageCheltenham
myShop pageChichester
myShop pageCork
myShop pageCoventry
myShop pageCroydon
myShop pageDoncaster
myShop pageEdinburgh
myShop pageGateshead
myShop pageGuildford
myShop pageHarrogate
myShop pageHigh Wycombe
myShop pageInverness
myShop pageKingston
myShop pageLeeds
myShop pageLincoln
myShop pageLiverpool Street Station
myShop pageMaidstone
myShop pageManchester, Arndale
myShop pageMeadowhall Centre, Sheffield
myShop pageMiddlesbrough
myShop pageNewcastle
myShop pageNorwich
myShop pageOxford
myShop pagePlymouth
myShop pagePortobello Road
myShop pagePreston
myShop pageRegent Street
myShop pageSauchiehall St, Glasgow
myShop pageSolihull
myShop pageSouthampton
myShop pageSwansea
myShop pageTaunton
myShop pageTruro
myShop pageWarrington
myShop pageWhite City
myShop pageWindsor
myShop pageYork


*Lush SPAs*

myShop page Leeds 
myShop page Poole 

myShop page London-Kings Road


----------



## Chameleon Col

Hahahahahahaha, THANK GOD! THEY HAVE'NT HEARD OF CANNOCK, STAFFORDSHIRE....YET!.....


----------



## Khaos

*Final revisions for the flyer*

Right guys: I'll make a final revision of the flyer by lunchtime. Please copy and paste this list with additions, amends or comments.

Other bits to be added include Lush/APA claim 50% of all reptiles die in transit, HM Revenue and Customs & Heathrow Airport say 0.5%. 

Also, I didn't realise that the Crested Gecko (along with a kind of boa which I forget) were brought back from extinction by reptile keepers and a sustained wildlife release programme. Cracking ammo.


----------



## Dayle

I will be at the Croydon branch this weekend with the final copy of the flyer if anyone is comming


----------



## Sephiroth

Khaos said:


> Right guys: I'll make a final revision of the flyer by lunchtime. Please copy and paste this list with additions, amends or comments.
> 
> Other bits to be added include Lush/APA claim 50% of all reptiles die in transit, HM Revenue and Customs & Heathrow Airport say 0.5%.
> 
> Also, I didn't realise that the Crested Gecko (along with a kind of boa which I forget) were brought back from extinction by reptile keepers and a sustained wildlife release programme. Cracking ammo.


just a petty thing, I would say "APA *have* claimed" (ie in the past) haven't seen it mentioned on Lush literature... lush just give the impression that the number is large...


----------



## Chameleon Col

Blimey!! "Khaos", your far to a brainy organiser for an old git like me,hehehe.. I think you guys are "FANTASTIC", for standing up for our hobby, WELL DONE, AND ALL THE BEST TO EVERYONE INVOLVED IN OUR BATTLE TO HAVE THE RIGHT TO KEEP REPS.

"WELL DONE" Col.


----------



## Dykie

Khaos said:


> Right guys: I'll make a final revision of the flyer by lunchtime. Please copy and paste this list with additions, amends or comments.
> 
> Other bits to be added include Lush/APA claim 50% of all reptiles die in transit, HM Revenue and Customs & Heathrow Airport say 0.5%.
> 
> Also, I didn't realise that the Crested Gecko (along with a kind of boa which I forget) were brought back from extinction by reptile keepers and a sustained wildlife release programme. Cracking ammo.


I think its the Hog island Boa that is extinct in the wild and i think cresties are endangered


----------



## paulds

Natrix mentioned earlier that Lush have taken their flier off the shelves.

I can now confirm that both Maidstone and Lakeside have now mysteriously run out of fliers.

This and the mail I received from the ASA this morning have given me a bit of a trouser twitch :2thumb:


----------



## Dayle

it seems to me lush are realizing they have dropped a ball


----------



## paulds

Dayle said:


> it seems to me lush are realizing they have dropped a ball


Or the ASA have asked them to remove the offending literature????

It would be so sweet if they were forced to make a public retraction and publish the actual data. 

If that happened it would be the last campaign they would get involved with for a while :whistling2:


----------



## Dayle

Possible yeah, and i agree if they were forced to re-publish i doubt they would get involved with campaigning for years if not longer, the damage it would due to thier credability would be pretty huge, something along the lines of "LUSH lies to public to sell new soap" etc etc


----------



## paulds

Dayle said:


> Possible yeah, and i agree if they were forced to re-publish i doubt they would get involved with campaigning for years if not longer, the damage it would due to thier credability would be pretty huge, something along the lines of "LUSH lies to public to sell new soap" etc etc


Super sweet : victory:


----------



## wohic

I am so proud of our community !!
well done everyone for standing up for the truth in a sensible yet proactive Manner !

This shows that the reptile community as a whole can stand together as one rather huge voice ,this is the way forward.


----------



## daisyman97

It makes me happy that my contribution has been to be able to stop about 20 people from going to the shops  I haven't done this through saying "don't shop there" I have done this through reasonable discussions with friends and reminding them that my turtles are exotic pets and how well looked after they are. 
So make sure you have told every possible friend you actually know, though I guess most people have :lol2:


----------



## paulds

wohic said:


> I am so proud of our community !!
> well done everyone for standing up for the truth in a sensible yet proactive Manner !
> 
> This shows that the reptile community as a whole can stand together as one rather huge voice ,this is the way forward.


It's been pretty damned impressive.

If we all behave well tomorrow, we are well on our way to not only stopping the Lush campaign but raising awareness and interest in reptile keeping altogether. : victory:


----------



## daisyman97

paulds said:


> It's been pretty damned impressive.
> 
> If we all behave well tomorrow, we are well on our way to not only stopping the Lush campaign but raising awareness and interest in reptile keeping altogether. : victory:


It would be good if we could do that, turn the APAs lies against them to promote our hobby  :no1:


----------



## Dayle

paulds said:


> It's been pretty damned impressive.
> 
> If we all behave well tomorrow, we are well on our way to not only stopping the Lush campaign but raising awareness and interest in reptile keeping altogether. : victory:


 
I agree with paul we do need to be well behaved in doing this, no point going there with these flyers and screaming at lush people and throwing cobras at them lol

play it smart and civil it will get us alot better results in the long term


----------



## paulds

daisyman97 said:


> It would be good if we could do that, turn the APAs lies against them to promote our hobby  :no1:


I would be smiling for the foreseeable : victory:



Dayle said:


> I agree with paul we do need to be well behaved in doing this, no point going there with these flyers and screaming at lush people and *throwing cobras* at them lol
> 
> play it smart and civil it will get us alot better results in the long term


:lol2:

Your spot on though, it is possible that we may get some crap from people while handing out fliers, so if you have trouble keeping your temper then you may do well to stay at home : victory:

I would also advise against anyone brining their kids along, just incase


----------



## Spikebrit

Bloody hell guys, I go away from for the eveing an another 20 odd pages appear.

Do we have a final version of the leaflet?? I've got permission to put the leaflet up in quite a few pubs chains in staffordhsire/stoke so that will educate a good chunk. All I need now is a link to the new one. 

I lush have pulled in their leaflets it will be a good thing, however the damage has already been done. 

Jay


----------



## Dykie

paulds said:


> Or the ASA have asked them to remove the offending literature????
> 
> *It would be so sweet if they were forced to make a public retraction and publish the actual data. *
> 
> If that happened it would be the last campaign they would get involved with for a while :whistling2:


That would be great if it happened, do you think they would make a catchy tag line, massive posters & leaflets and have all the staff dressing up again... probably not


----------



## Khaos

Spikebrit said:


> Bloody hell guys, I go away from for the eveing an another 20 odd pages appear.
> 
> Do we have a final version of the leaflet?? I've got permission to put the leaflet up in quite a few pubs chains in staffordhsire/stoke so that will educate a good chunk. All I need now is a link to the new one.
> 
> I lush have pulled in their leaflets it will be a good thing, however the damage has already been done.
> 
> Jay


We'll have a final version by lunchtime today. I'll make the last amends - it'll then by up to you lot, my brave cobra-throwing campaigners, to get it out there!


----------



## paulds

Spikebrit said:


> Bloody hell guys, I go away from for the eveing an another 20 odd pages appear.
> 
> Do we have a final version of the leaflet?? I've got permission to put the leaflet up in quite a few pubs chains in staffordhsire/stoke so that will educate a good chunk. All I need now is a link to the new one.
> 
> I lush have pulled in their leaflets it will be a good thing, however the damage has already been done.
> 
> Jay


 i think the final revision is due out at lunch, I like the pub idea, no one debates better than people in pubs, good move :2thumb:

If the ASA do find Lush in breach of the rules a letter of retraction could be forced on them : victory:


----------



## Spikebrit

Khaos said:


> We'll have a final version by lunchtime today. I'll make the last amends - it'll then by up to you lot, my brave cobra-throwing campaigners, to get it out there!





> i think the final revision is due out at lunch, I like the pub idea, no one debates better than people in pubs, good move :2thumb:
> 
> If the ASA do find Lush in breach of the rules a letter of retraction could be forced on them : victory:


Good good, once we have the final one, I shall get them up before the weekend, as it will get the most attention. 

Regarding handing out leflets, no one will be able to do the store in Hanley/stoke, as due to it being in a shopping complex you will just be arrested; just to forwarn you guys. 

Jay


----------



## Khaos

Is anyone planning to hit the Kingston store?


----------



## excession

I am not sure if anyone posted this link recently but:

ASA - Online complaints form

we should all complain there


----------



## Sephiroth

excession said:


> I am not sure if anyone posted this link recently but:
> 
> ASA - Online complaints form
> 
> we should all complain there


I know Paul and I have and I'm sure many others have as well.

but YES! If you haven't done so yet please send you complaints to ASA as well... even if it is just to say the APA media is offensive.

here is the printed Lush/APA campaign media if they ask for it. ImageShack Album - 6 images


----------



## paulds

Sephiroth said:


> I know Paul and I have and I'm sure many others have as well.
> 
> but YES! If you haven't done so yet please send you complaints to ASA as well... even if it is just to say the APA media is offensive.
> 
> here is the printed Lush/APA campaign media if they ask for it. ImageShack Album - 6 images


Definitely, I think the ASA received 129 complaints about Lush's Fox Hunting campaign, I'm sure we can do better than that???? :whistling2:

Remember if complaining this is an official body and they are geniunely working to stop this campaign, so please no one be abusive or say anything that could be taken as incitement or liable : victory:


----------



## rosey123

Im going to do it .. its absalutly discusting!! .. and if you want me to hand some flyers out outside my local lush shop i will gladly do so!! :2thumb:


----------



## Ant and Soph

Link wont work for me at the moment. Il try again later, Have to say reading into the background im less concerned for our hobby than I am with where lush happily send the publics money, HSA are pretty much terrorists in there methods, Think its appaulling that they happily send th publics hard earned money to these orginasations without even doing their background research first. 

Im personally more concerned with that side of the subject, and the fact that as pointed out, they are lurings kids along to be educated by potentially violent groups. I really feel we are on a winning track here to be honest, They have left to much uncovered that the ASA will likely have issues with. If the children become the focus of the arguement the damage done could be collosal, Imagine they had to make a statement that the APA were not the right group to teach peoples kids. Besides losing a large customer base at the drop of hat the chances are multiple parents would happily sue or take them to court in some way of form, And with their children being involved already have a masive led weight on their side, Basically I think this has the potential to stop their campaign, But also the potential to cripple their business depending on how the media and the public receive it. 

Might just be hopefull but you never know, lot of people are happy to go to court over their childs welfare and if I had a kid who was taught wrongly by a self-proclaimed scientist, I would happily follow up on it

Cheers bothrops lol, Cant beleive I managed that one


----------



## paulds

rosey123 said:


> Im going to do it .. its absalutly discusting!! .. and if you want me to hand some flyers out outside my local lush shop i will gladly do so!! :2thumb:


That would be great, where is your local store? : victory:



Ant and Soph said:


> Link wont work for me at the moment. Il try again later, Have to say reading into the background im less concerned for our hobby than I am with where lush happily send the publics money, HSA are pretty much terrorists in there methods, Think its appaulling that they happily send th publics hard earned money to these orginasations without even doing their background research first.
> 
> Im personally more concerned with that side of the subject, and the fact that as pointed out, they are lurings kids along to be educated by potentially violent groups. I really feel we are on a winning track here to be honest, They have left to much uncovered that the ASA will likely have issues with. If the children become the focus of the arguement the damage done could be collosal, Imagine they had to make a statement that the APA were not the right group to teach peoples kids. Besides losing a large customer base at the drop of hat the chances are multiple parents would happily sue or take them to court in some way of form, And with their children being involved already have a masive led weight on their side, Basically I think this has the potential to stop their campaign, But also the potential to cripple their business depending on how the media and the public receive it.
> 
> Might just be hopefull but you never know, lot of people are happy to go to court over their childs welfare and if I had a kid who was taught wrongly by a self-proclaimed scientist, I would happily follow up on it


Lush seem to be courting these right wing groups in an attempt to raise their profile as a ethical retailer, not much ethically right about what their doing, in my opinion :whistling2:


----------



## andy007

excession said:


> I am not sure if anyone posted this link recently but:
> 
> ASA - Online complaints form
> 
> we should all complain there


Already done:2thumb:


----------



## Ant and Soph

paulds said:


> That would be great, where is your local store? : victory:
> 
> 
> 
> Lush seem to be courting these right wing groups in an attempt to raise their profile as a ethical retailer, not much ethically right about what their doing, in my opinion :whistling2:


I agree, this is has been the basis of my complaint to the ASA, the education of children with false info, the way lush send money to companies while giving the public a false idea of what their money is working towards, And a general lack of trust to be standing alone as a business and need some form of monitoring before they fund even more harmfull groups. I think lush actually indirectly support PETA too, so their true intentions are clear, they support extremists


----------



## Dayle

filling the form out now


----------



## andy007

Ant and Soph said:


> I agree, this is has been the basis of my complaint to the ASA, the education of children with false info, the way lush send money to companies while giving the public a false idea of what their money is working towards, And a general lack of trust to be standing alone as a business and need some form of monitoring before they fund even more harmfull groups. I think lush actually indirectly support PETA too, so their true intentions are clear, they support extremists


When I complained to the ASA I specifically quoted the "Under 12" issue:whip:


----------



## Sephiroth

hee hee... still having fun with Catriona on facebook...



> Catriona
> Quite aside from Hannah's point, photos of happy and healthy exotic pets, while very adorable indeed, are not appropriate on this page. I wouldn't post a picture of my parents' cat, either - it isn't relevant. I mean, if you were on an exotic pets board and someone came in a posted a bunch of photos of soap, wouldn't that annoy you a bit?





> Mike
> I'd say it would be relevant if Lush started a campaign saying your parent's cat was being abused... in my opinion anyway....





> Catriona
> And my other point about soap?





> Mike
> If we were campaigning against soap then I think it would be very appropriate... but we are a clean bunch so that isn't likely


----------



## Dayle

Sephiroth said:


> hee hee... still having fun with Catriona on facebook...


 

Lol, that made me smile


----------



## excession

Ive stopped now. Personally I dont think I said anything too out of line, the worst I said was that I would notice the difference between boots shaving cream and some lush gunk, and I said to one member on there that the APA wanted to take her hamster away and that she would be funding them to do it.

But I got accused of being bullying so I will just leave it at that!

I still feel that its relevant to take our concerns to their fan page tho, its a fan page for the company that we are in disagreement with - but I also think people shouldn't start swearing and ripping into them, I agree that that doesn't help one bit.

Oh and I made the 'it smells like propaganda and lies' comment, but again that was supposed to be a bit tongue in cheek...

But I guess teasing them wont help, so I will stop!


----------



## paulds

Sephiroth said:


> hee hee... still having fun with Catriona on facebook...


 I'm amazed she's still at it, she didn't stop moaning about the posts and saying she was tired of commenting last night.

I for some reason have had my comments removed, I didn't swear or become abusive, so not to sure what that was about.

Get in there though dude :2thumb:


----------



## andy007

paulds said:


> I'm amazed she's still at it, she didn't stop moaning about the posts and saying she was tired of commenting last night.
> 
> I for some reason have had my comments removed, I didn't swear or become abusive, so not to sure what that was about.
> 
> Get in there though dude :2thumb:


Their main gripe was with the main facebook page. The discussions page is still ongoing.


----------



## Ant and Soph

Just try not to make her over-irrate lol. although she is a tool, some of the other members have given us a good response, however an ongoing arguement with her will alienate more people. Although so far we seem to be collecting some supporters along the way too, I was surprised the amount of people who suddenly wanted to know the names of these animals that were being posted. 

However I see their point, Maybe we should keep the photos out? the members appear to be happy to discuss the issue with us (or the majority) but the photos seem to aggrivate some of the very same people. Not disagreeing with your method, Just saying try without photos today and see if we get a better response, Late last night when the photos stopped a lot of the mebers were being very positive towards us, And these are exactly the people we are aiming to speak out to, Lush's most loyal customers


----------



## Khaos

Ladies and gentlemen!

I think we have a final version.

Clicky for linky!

Do with them as you will...

If someone could host them somewhere better, it'd be appreciated!


----------



## paulds

andy007 said:


> Their main gripe was with the main facebook page. The discussions page is still ongoing.


Thats where they removed my comments from :lol2:


----------



## Sephiroth

Khaos said:


> Ladies and gentlemen!
> 
> I think we have a final version.
> 
> Here's a JPEG and a PDF.
> 
> Do with them as you will...
> 
> If someone could host them somewhere better, it'd be appreciated!


sorry to keep asking for changes... but could "you are being fed!" to "they are feeding you." or something similar?

It feels like we are accusing the customer...


----------



## excession

Ant and Soph said:


> Just try not to make her over-irrate lol. although she is a tool, some of the other members have given us a good response, however an ongoing arguement with her will alienate more people. Although so far we seem to be collecting some supporters along the way too, I was surprised the amount of people who suddenly wanted to know the names of these animals that were being posted.
> 
> However I see their point, Maybe we should keep the photos out? the members appear to be happy to discuss the issue with us (or the majority) but the photos seem to aggrivate some of the very same people. Not disagreeing with your method, Just saying try without photos today and see if we get a better response, Late last night when the photos stopped a lot of the mebers were being very positive towards us, And these are exactly the people we are aiming to speak out to, Lush's most loyal customers


re: the photos...

I think it will take a page admin all of 30 seconds to remove them.

So they wont be there long I am sure.


----------



## paulds

Khaos said:


> Ladies and gentlemen!
> 
> I think we have a final version.
> 
> Here's a JPEG and a PDF.
> 
> Do with them as you will...
> 
> If someone could host them somewhere better, it'd be appreciated!


That has turned out really well, good effort bud : victory:


----------



## excession

paulds said:


> That has turned out really well, good effort bud : victory:


I agree, its fantastic.

Nice work all


----------



## Sephiroth

"This is completely untrue. Official figures show that the *actual *figure is *actually *less than 0.5%"

maybe = Official figures show that the actual figure is less than 0.5%.

and then maybe something about, 
though any loss regretable, thousands more are being bred in this country, so less and less are being imported every year. 

or something like that....


----------



## paulds

Sephiroth said:


> sorry to keep asking for changes... but could "you are being fed!" to "they are feeding you." or something similar?
> 
> It feels like we are accusing the customer...


Agreed, subtle things like that can totally change people perception of what they're reading :2thumb:


----------



## Moosmoo

Just filled out the complaint form for the ASA : victory:


----------



## Dayle

when i get home i can upload it to my websites hosting for you Khaos


----------



## Graham

> so less and less are being imported every year


..._fewer_ are being imported....


----------



## paulds

Moosmoo said:


> Just filled out the complaint form for the ASA : victory:


Nice one :2thumb:


----------



## Sephiroth

Graham said:


> ..._fewer_ are being imported....


that's good too

:Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Khaos

Graham said:


> ..._fewer_ are being imported....


Gramatically, you're on the money. But less and less is a far more emotive phrase, hence choosing it.

'You're being fed' is there for space reasons, I'm running out of characters to play with! Have changed the final importing paragraph.

Other amends have been made. Are we ready to run with this?

If so I'll make a new thread with it in.


----------



## David L

Dont forget to put it on their facebook page.. I'd create a new discussion too. They can complain and whinge all they want, doesn't change the fact that this official page belongs to a company which wants to treat me and all reptile keepers as a criminal.... 

They expect symapthy for this? there's a saying and it ends 'reap what you sow'.


----------



## Graham

I think good grammatically correct English is essential, otherwise educated people reading it will just see the mistakes and think you're uneducated, which then undermines all of your arguments.


----------



## Sephiroth

Khaos said:


> Gramatically, you're on the money. But less and less is a far more emotive phrase, hence choosing it.
> 
> 'You're being fed' is there for space reasons, I'm running out of characters to play with! Have changed the final importing paragraph.
> 
> Other amends have been made. Are we ready to run with this?
> 
> If so I'll make a new thread with it in.



you are being fed really does feel very strong... just

"Here are just a few of the many bits of misinformation"

would feel better to me...


----------



## southpython

Id be happy to do the croydon store, PM me if enyone is thinking of going to it. : victory:


----------



## Moosmoo

this isnt to do with the leaflet but reading on the lush page and the people saying how upset they are with people on their page etc really makes my blood boil - i havent ''liked'' the page and i wont be so therefore i can't reply. however i feel like MY hobby and MY interest have been crapped all over by lush which therefore has really upset me and its far more serious than just on a facebook page - i think some people on there need to wake up and see the bigger picture. being upset over a facebook page is pretty pathetic. being upset over a nationwide campaign to tarnish your hobby isnt. :bash:


----------



## ilovemary

im always on there facebook page :lol2: think our message will come across soon is one going on in stoke on trent


----------



## Moosmoo

ilovemary said:


> im always on there facebook page :lol2: think our message will come across soon is one going on in stoke on trent



I'm only watching cos as I say I havent '' liked '' the page and I won't be just so I can reply to them. Just irritating me :lol2:


----------



## Juzza12

I just put some photos up on their facebook page. Someone commented about all the pics going up, apparently all our animals are miserable and unhealthy in their vivs/tanks with only cardboard and twigs thrown in.


----------



## Moosmoo

Also I don't know if anyone else noticed this, however someone has put up a load of pictures with RIP underneath?? these animals all seem young in the photos and tbh I don't really think these pictures will help our cause?! 

We're meant to be proving that they CAN live long happy lives


----------



## paulds

It might be sensible to back away from FB a bit, people are obviously getting pissed off and the last thing we want is to provoke anyone who is likely to be at a Lush store tomorrow into confronting one of our peeps.

Just a though, obviously you are all fully capable of making up your own minds and doing as you see fit :2thumb:


----------



## paulds

Khaos said:


> Gramatically, you're on the money. But less and less is a far more emotive phrase, hence choosing it.
> 
> 'You're being fed' is there for space reasons, I'm running out of characters to play with! Have changed the final importing paragraph.
> 
> Other amends have been made. Are we ready to run with this?
> 
> If so I'll make a new thread with it in.


I'm loving it bud, might be worth running it past either Natrix or Chris again before putting it up for the masses to download, just to make sure that we haven't exposed ourselves or the FBH or anyone else to possible scrutiny : victory:


----------



## Moosmoo

paulds said:


> It might be sensible to back away from FB a bit, people are obviously getting pissed off and the last thing we want is to provoke anyone who is likely to be at a Lush store tomorrow into confronting one of our peeps.
> 
> Just a though, obviously you are all fully capable of making up your own minds and doing as you see fit :2thumb:


I agree, I didn't join because I knew I wouldn't be able to stop myself from commenting on the comments made by the ''lushies'' so I have stayed out of it but have been watching like a hawk... :lol2:


----------



## Dayle

paulds said:


> It might be sensible to back away from FB a bit, people are obviously getting pissed off and the last thing we want is to provoke anyone who is likely to be at a Lush store tomorrow into confronting one of our peeps.
> 
> Just a though, obviously you are all fully capable of making up your own minds and doing as you see fit :2thumb:


 
Yeah i would agree it also still gives lush customers the impression we are the stereotypical rep keeper that lush is blazing on about, obviously nothing wrong with going on there voicing your opinion and leaving, no need to really stay there to deliberatly wind up people as alot of people will be set in thier ways and even if we show them all this they will still agree with LUSH, purely because its a "slimey yucky reptile"

Im just saving up my ammo for tommorow when i intend to be at Croydon


----------



## ilovemary

Moosmoo said:


> I'm only watching cos as I say I havent '' liked '' the page and I won't be just so I can reply to them. Just irritating me :lol2:


you can easily unlike after  :lol2:


----------



## Spikebrit

ilovemary said:


> im always on there facebook page :lol2: think our message will come across soon is one going on in stoke on trent


The Lush in hanley is in the potteries, so you can't campaign as you will be escorted off my security, though you are welcome to try. 

Jay


----------



## ilovemary

Spikebrit said:


> The Lush in hanley is in the potteries, so you can't campaign as you will be escorted off my security, though you are welcome to try.
> 
> Jay


yh i no but wa if we ignor security


----------



## paulds

Moosmoo said:


> I agree, I didn't join because I knew I wouldn't be able to stop myself from commenting on the comments made by the ''lushies'' so I have stayed out of it but have been watching like a hawk... :lol2:


I got my comments removed without even being offencive, sothere isn't much point being on there anyway. : victory:



Dayle said:


> Yeah i would agree it also still gives lush customers the impression we are the stereotypical rep keeper that lush is blazing on about, obviously nothing wrong with going on there voicing your opinion and leaving, no need to really stay there to deliberatly wind up people as alot of people will be set in thier ways and even if we show them all this they will still agree with LUSH, purely because its a "slimey yucky reptile"
> 
> Im just saving up my ammo for tommorow when i intend to be at Croydon


Good luck buddy, i'll be enlightening the Maidstone massive : victory:



Spikebrit said:


> The Lush in hanley is in the potteries, so you can't campaign as you will be escorted off my security, though you are welcome to try.
> 
> Jay


 Nobody should put themselves at risk of prosecution or physical assualt for this, if you are removed from an area by security, simply set up as close as possible to the store, a security guard in a shopping centre has no authority outside of that area. : victory:


----------



## southpython

Well croydon store it is then for me and dayle tomorrow. : victory:


----------



## David L

Is anyone doing Fargate Sheffield?


----------



## paulds

southpython said:


> Well croydon store it is then for me and dayle tomorrow. : victory:


Nice one peeps, I can't wait to get on here next week and see how we all got on.

Enjoy yourselves :notworthy:


----------



## Moosmoo

who is Jordan Mottram? whoever you are, I really think you should back off now, it is going too far and we look like the extremists which is exactly what we DIDNT want...


----------



## Natrix

Khaos said:


> Ladies and gentlemen!
> 
> I think we have a final version.
> 
> Here's a JPEG and a PDF.
> 
> Do with them as you will...
> 
> If someone could host them somewhere better, it'd be appreciated!


Just a couple of points.

Ok, looking at it the first thing I see is the top lines that says "REPTILES ARE THE OLDEST SPECIES OF ANIMAL ON THE PLANET" are fish and amphibians not animals? They were here before reptiles. Can you add ARE among the oldest ----------------

The other is the line at the bottom about Hogg island boas and crested gecko’s. I am unaware of either being released back into the wild yet. Both however are thriving safely in captivity thanks to the hobby. This also applies to the paragraph above the RFUK logo.

The only other thing I would add is that you can use the FBH logo if you wish.

Gordon


----------



## reptile_man_08

You haven't put full-stops on the end of many paragraphs.: victory:

Just my opinion, but wouldn't it be more effective if it was more simple and straight towards the point in some parts, and so reducing the amount of text and getting more people to have a read.

These figures are completely incorrect. HM Revenue & Customs report that: 17,194 reptiles were imported into the UK of which 9,800 were captive bred and 7,394 wild caught. In addition, many species are exclusively bred by keepers. Take one of the reptiles featured in LUSH’s campaign – the Veiled Chameleon (Chamaeleo Calyptratus). Of the 250 exported worldwide, 100% were bred in captivity, none were wild caught!

Instead something like....

Wrong.HM Revenue & Customs report that: 17, 194 reptiles were imported into the UK of which 9800 were captive bred and 7,394 wild caught.Many species are also exclusively bred by keepers.Of the 250 vieled chameleons exported worldwide, a species featured in LUSH's campaign, 100% were bred in captivity.

With bigger text maybe, I just feel that many people won't be bothered to read it.


----------



## Zak

Natrix said:


> Just a couple of points.
> 
> Ok, looking at it the first thing I see is the top lines that says "REPTILES ARE THE OLDEST SPECIES OF ANIMAL ON THE PLANET" are fish and amphibians not animals? They were here before reptiles. Can you add ARE among the oldest ----------------
> 
> The other is the line at the bottom about Hogg island boas and crested gecko’s. I am unaware of either being released back into the wild yet. Both however are thriving safely in captivity thanks to the hobby. This also applies to the paragraph above the RFUK logo.
> 
> The only other thing I would add is that you can use the FBH logo if you wish.
> 
> Gordon


Gordon beat me to it. The reptile community use the crested gecko and hogg island point way too much, yes we've preserved them in captivity but as far as i know there have been no captive bred release programmes that have ever involved the hobby.

As a few have said our points need to be water tight and id also check that individual statements cant be quoted our of context to make us found like fools, ive seen the APA do that before.


----------



## Sephiroth

reptile_man_08 said:


> You haven't put full-stops on the end of many paragraphs.: victory:
> 
> Just my opinion, but wouldn't it be more effective if it was more simple and straight towards the point in some parts, and so reducing the amount of text and getting more people to have a read.
> 
> These figures are completely incorrect. HM Revenue & Customs report that: 17,194 reptiles were imported into the UK of which 9,800 were captive bred and 7,394 wild caught. In addition, many species are exclusively bred by keepers. Take one of the reptiles featured in LUSH’s campaign – the Veiled Chameleon (Chamaeleo Calyptratus). Of the 250 exported worldwide, 100% were bred in captivity, none were wild caught!
> 
> Instead something like....
> 
> Wrong.HM Revenue & Customs report that: 17, 194 reptiles were imported into the UK of which 9800 were captive bred and 7,394 wild caught.Many species are also exclusively bred by keepers.Of the 250 vieled chameleons exported worldwide, a species featured in LUSH's campaign, 100% were bred in captivity.
> 
> With bigger text maybe, I just feel that many people won't be bothered to read it.


I'm not sure if there's going to be enough time to make any more significant changes to the text... I'm hoping the next copy Khaos uploads will be the last so we can get started!!!


----------



## wildlifewarrior

Moosmoo said:


> who is Jordan Mottram? whoever you are, I really think you should back off now, it is going too far and we look like the extremists which is exactly what we DIDNT want...


Hes the 13 yr old that used to be called motty1234 on here...and was banned for the neglect he gave his animals: victory:


----------



## paulds

Sephiroth said:


> I'm not sure if there's going to be enough time to make any more significant changes to the text... I'm hoping the next copy Khaos uploads will be the last so we can get started!!!


Agreed.

Anyone going to stores where there are more than one person in attendance could maybe PM each other with mobile numbers so they can arrange a meet time off the main forum.

Due to the likelyhood, that people against what we are doing have been on the forum,I would try and keep personal details as private as poss and would advise against arranging to demonstrate with anyone who has become a member within the last few days.

Safety 1st peeps, be safe and have fun out there : victory:


----------



## Moosmoo

wildlifewarrior said:


> Hes the 13 yr old that used to be called motty1234 on here...and was banned for the neglect he gave his animals: victory:



Figures, he was banned? then how does he know about all of this? :whip: im foozed!


----------



## Graham

> Hes the 13 yr old that used to be called motty1234 on here...and was banned for the neglect he gave his animals


Great, just the kind of moron we need batting for us...


----------



## Spikebrit

Just thought you would be interested, I wrote a paragraph about this and published the link on facebook, and it's alrady been very popular with many people copying it and passing it on. 

woo for facebook media.


----------



## Spikebrit

wildlifewarrior said:


> Hes the 13 yr old that used to be called motty1234 on here...and was banned for the neglect he gave his animals: victory:


glad to see i convinced you to read the thread christian. 

jay


----------



## wildlifewarrior

Moosmoo said:


> Figures, he was banned? then how does he know about all of this? :whip: im foozed!


he just views the forum still...as far as i know this section can be seen by non memebers aswell....which might not be the greatest thing...is it not worth asking t-bo to grant this section with privacy so you need to regisiter.....and even if the antis then register up, if nothing else at least there IP address is there for mods to see?



Graham said:


> Great, just the kind of moron we need batting for us...


excalty...however this is nothing on the scale of things hes done...i wont mention them though as this isnt the time nor place...but a forum search will answer it: victory:


----------



## wildlifewarrior

Spikebrit said:


> glad to see i convinced you to read the thread christian.
> 
> jay


was already reading the ones in the snake section....just didnt notice the one in here: victory:


----------



## paulds

wildlifewarrior said:


> he just views the forum still...as far as i know this section can be seen by non memebers aswell....which might not be the greatest thing...*is it not worth asking t-bo to grant this section with privacy so you need to regisiter.....and even if the antis then register up, if nothing else at least there IP address is there for mods to see?*
> 
> 
> 
> excalty...however this is nothing on the scale of things hes done...i wont mention them though as this isnt the time nor place...but a forum search will answer it: victory:


Good idea, i'm off to lunch so if anything happens please someone pm me the details so I don't find myself blocked


----------



## Moosmoo

wildlifewarrior said:


> he just views the forum still...as far as i know this section can be seen by non memebers aswell....which might not be the greatest thing...is it not worth asking t-bo to grant this section with privacy so you need to regisiter.....and even if the antis then register up, if nothing else at least there IP address is there for mods to see?
> 
> 
> 
> excalty...however this is nothing on the scale of things hes done...i wont mention them though as this isnt the time nor place...but a forum search will answer it: victory:



People are taking things too far on Lush's page now, including him, it had all but died down and then he came along and started hassling them again, I haven't said anything on that page because it won't help anymore, they are just getting annoyed and thats not what we want. 

I think making this section private is a great idea, at least then crazy people like this Jordan can't read it, jump in head first and undo all our hardwork.


----------



## Roseanna

I'd like to help out with the protests against lush's campaign!
What can i do to help?
Would there be any point in printing out leaflets and posting them in peoples letter boxes?? I live in a lovely area and people around here will be willing to listen.
Anything else i could do just let me know :2thumb:


----------



## Graham

Not much point targetting non-Lush customers though, that's just a waste of resources.


----------



## Roseanna

Graham said:


> Not much point targetting non-Lush customers though, that's just a waste of resources.


 true. what could i do to help though,i'd really like to help.


----------



## ipreferaflan

Moosmoo said:


> this isnt to do with the leaflet but reading on the lush page and the people saying how upset they are with people on their page etc really makes my blood boil - i havent ''liked'' the page and i wont be so therefore i can't reply. however i feel like MY hobby and MY interest have been crapped all over by lush which therefore has really upset me and its far more serious than just on a facebook page - i think some people on there need to wake up and see the bigger picture. being upset over a facebook page is pretty pathetic. being upset over a nationwide campaign to tarnish your hobby isnt. :bash:


Agree X a million.


----------



## ilovemary

im going go to lush tomz the potteries one and give them all the facts they need to no  :/ bit scared tho only 15 but they gott no ill take me gf with me


----------



## Spikebrit

wildlifewarrior said:


> was already reading the ones in the snake section....just didnt notice the one in here: victory:


all i heard was jay is great lol. I've not read the one in the snake bit. 

jay


----------



## Juzza12

Moosmoo said:


> this isnt to do with the leaflet but reading on the lush page and the people saying how upset they are with people on their page etc really makes my blood boil - i havent ''liked'' the page and i wont be so therefore i can't reply. however i feel like MY hobby and MY interest have been crapped all over by lush which therefore has really upset me and its far more serious than just on a facebook page - i think some people on there need to wake up and see the bigger picture. being upset over a facebook page is pretty pathetic. being upset over a nationwide campaign to tarnish your hobby isnt. :bash:


You should "Like" the lush page if only to go on and point that out, i completely agree.


----------



## Spikebrit

ilovemary said:


> im going go to lush tomz the potteries one and give them all the facts they need to no  :/ bit scared tho only 15 but they gott no ill take me gf with me


As I said before, be careful mate, you will get escorted off site by security in the potteries. Hence the major reason I wont be doing it. 

Jay


----------



## Asha

Would it maybe be worth setting up a 'Boycott Lush' page of our own so we can get our own views across and plaster it with our flier??

I noticed there is actually a group there already called *Boycott Lush for LIFE not just for Christmas*, you can find it here:
Boycott Lush for LIFE not just for Christmas | Facebook

That one was set up to combat the Hunt Saboteurs Association campaign they ran a while back.
There's 13,717 members there so rather than setting up a new group, I've posted a comment there to inform them of the current campaign - maybe one of the admins wouldn't mind mentioning it properly on the existing group?


----------



## Asha

Spikebrit said:


> As I said before, be careful mate, you will get escorted off site by security in the potteries. Hence the major reason I wont be doing it.
> 
> Jay


I may well be going with a friend too... if only to check it out and lodge a complaint with the store manager. 
I'll be pointing out I regularly spend money in the store and they've lost me as a customer due to the campaign. Everyone has a right to complain.
I've got no issue giving the manager a copy of the flier - at least he/she can mention it to head office then and point out the campaign is upsetting people.

If we get escorted away by security then fair enough, but just turning up and showing we're unhappy is the main thing.

I'll ask my local reptile shop if they'll keep a pile of the fliers on the counter though - that'll be a few more Lush customers lost!


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ilovemary said:


> im going go to lush tomz the potteries one and give them all the facts they need to no  :/ bit scared tho only 15 but they gott no ill take me gf with me


your taking your missues with you as safety:lol2:



Asha said:


> I'll ask my local reptile shop if they'll keep a pile of the fliers on the counter though - that'll be a few more Lush customers lost!


i doubt it....ive seen what the people who work in those shops look like....i doubt they are lush customers....not even cosmetics could make them pretty:Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## rum&coke

Asha said:


> Would it maybe be worth setting up a 'Boycott Lush' page of our own so we can get our own views across and plaster it with our flier??
> 
> I noticed there is actually a group there already called *Boycott Lush for LIFE not just for Christmas*, you can find it here:
> Boycott Lush for LIFE not just for Christmas | Facebook
> 
> That one was set up to combat the Hunt Saboteurs Association campaign they ran a while back.
> There's 13,717 members there so rather than setting up a new group, I've posted a comment there to inform them of the current campaign - maybe one of the admins wouldn't mind mentioning it properly on the existing group?


This is part of what I ment by you cant fight these people in a fair way, If you put up anti LUSH pages then you are using there name and that will be under copyright and not only that you could find yourself in court, Now what you may be saying about them could be true but do you want to spend lots of money proving that to the judge. Also protesting outside shops will also bring the authority's down on you. Our cause may be just and our info may be correct but do people have the funds to prove it against a business with a legal team?
We had a good shot on spamming up there face book page as it was there page so no copyright issues we disrupted there service for a bit and made there customers question the campaign and the APA they had no way of fighting back.
Any official rout and fair rout is going to be costly. They use a similar tactic them selfs by sending trolls over to our forum to disrupt it costs them nothing but if they made an anti RFUK page they would then have to spend money when RFUK owners challenge them.
I think the leaflet idea is a good one however using there name and standing outside there shops is an action that is going to provoke there legal team more than anything else.


----------



## David L

I bet there are more rep shops in UK than Lush's

(Going by locality around here there is, anyway)


I might mention it to a few of them and ask if they will put some leaflets out and help spread the message. Or even put one up as a poster...

So could you guys at Snakes and Adders (Chas), Mill GC (Gemma and Dean), L&D Exotics (Luke and Dan) not to mention all those I don't know the owners names of, please help get this message out to ALL reptile keepers, especially the ones who aren't saddos like me on the internet all the time.


----------



## Moosmoo

Asha said:


> Would it maybe be worth setting up a 'Boycott Lush' page of our own so we can get our own views across and plaster it with our flier??
> 
> I noticed there is actually a group there already called *Boycott Lush for LIFE not just for Christmas*, you can find it here:
> Boycott Lush for LIFE not just for Christmas | Facebook
> 
> That one was set up to combat the Hunt Saboteurs Association campaign they ran a while back.
> There's 13,717 members there so rather than setting up a new group, I've posted a comment there to inform them of the current campaign - maybe one of the admins wouldn't mind mentioning it properly on the existing group?


I think this is a fantastic idea, I would do it myself but I'm pretty rubbish with facebook tbh, I wouldn't have a clue where to start! :lol2:


----------



## Asha

I agree, and no - it isn't a good idea for anyone to get into trouble by standing outside their shops and handing out fliers... but isn't that what the fliers have been produced for?


----------



## paulds

Roseanna said:


> I'd like to help out with the protests against lush's campaign!
> What can i do to help?
> Would there be any point in printing out leaflets and posting them in peoples letter boxes?? I live in a lovely area and people around here will be willing to listen.
> Anything else i could do just let me know :2thumb:





Graham said:


> Not much point targetting non-Lush customers though, that's just a waste of resources.


 I have to say Graham that if Roseanna feels here area would be receptive, then why not? The only resources being used would be her printer ink.

I will be hoping that the local paper are coming along tomorrow, so the message can be spread a bit further, this is just an extention of that.

Once again it is great to see how many people are getting involved here. :2thumb:


----------



## Asha

Setting up a boycott lush page would not get you taken to court, in the end it's personal opinion... like I said - there's already one up with over 13000 members.
If legal action could be taken over things on Facebook the courts wouldn't know what hit them!!


----------



## David L

*i doubt it....ive seen what the people who work in those shops look like....i doubt they are lush customers....not even cosmetics could make them pretty*:Na_Na_Na_Na:[/QUOTE]

You obviously haven't seen the girls who work in my local rep shop, I can't say which, because I am sure they use this site occaisionally. And they know who I am.... Any they would kill me..... maybe.....

But all I can say is......PHWOARRRR! :mf_dribble:


----------



## rum&coke

Asha said:


> Setting up a boycott lush page would not get you taken to court, in the end it's personal opinion... like I said - there's already one up with over 13000 members.
> If legal action could be taken over things on Facebook the courts wouldn't know what hit them!!


I doubt that court would be the first rout but they sure would ask face book to take the page down and given that they own the name LUSH face book would probably do so. Anything written on the anti-LUSH page would have to be 100% true and factual or they could well sue you for labial. Think of the name and shame rules for shops on this forum. there is a reason we cant name and shame shops hear and thats because they could sue RFUK now what you are doing by making anti LUSH pages and flyer's is the same thing your leaving yourself open to legal action. In all fairness even if what you say on them is 100% and you win any action it could still hit you in the pocket to prove it.


----------



## ilovemary

wildlifewarrior said:


> your taking your missues with you as safety:lol2:
> 
> 
> yh why not lol ill just hide behind her if anything bad happens lol
> 
> 
> i doubt it....ive seen what the people who work in those shops look like....i doubt they are lush customers....not even cosmetics could make them pretty:Na_Na_Na_Na:


that is very true indeed


----------



## exoticsadmirer

David L said:


> *i doubt it....ive seen what the people who work in those shops look like....i doubt they are lush customers....not even cosmetics could make them pretty*:Na_Na_Na_Na:


You obviously haven't seen the girls who work in my local rep shop, I can't say which, because I am sure they use this site occaisionally. And they know who I am.... Any they would kill me..... maybe.....

But all I can say is......PHWOARRRR! :mf_dribble:[/QUOTE]
If it is who i think it is then yes Phwoar!


----------



## Asha

I just don't think any action is likely over a Facebook page, it either gets taken down or it doesn't. It's not the same as a privately owned website or forum where the owners can be held liable for what is posted. 

Anyone can boycott what they like and state their reasons for being anti-lush - it's their choice. It didn't backfire on the anti HSA group, why should it on us?


----------



## Graham

> I have to say Graham that if Roseanna feels here area would be receptive, then why not? The only resources being used would be her printer ink.


Well possibly, I'd just hate to see anyone wasting time and effort, I get a lot of unsolicited mail coming through my door and it all goes straight in the bin, same with most people I expect.

If you can't get to a store to protest then a calmly worded email to their customer care department is a good start, then think if you have any friends and relatives who might shop at the store and ask them if they'd mind boycotting it. 

I have three neices who shop there and have just offered all of them a financial incentive to go elsewhere, which they gladly accepted! I made sure to mention this in my email to Lush too, so they know that it's not just a load of disgruntled reptile keepers who they're losing as customers.


----------



## Spikebrit

Asha said:


> I may well be going with a friend too... if only to check it out and lodge a complaint with the store manager.
> I'll be pointing out I regularly spend money in the store and they've lost me as a customer due to the campaign. Everyone has a right to complain.
> I've got no issue giving the manager a copy of the flier - at least he/she can mention it to head office then and point out the campaign is upsetting people.
> 
> If we get escorted away by security then fair enough, but just turning up and showing we're unhappy is the main thing.
> 
> I'll ask my local reptile shop if they'll keep a pile of the fliers on the counter though - that'll be a few more Lush customers lost!


Fair enough, have you email head office with a complaint?

I've email dawn (discount koi) a copy of the flier so i'm hoping eith her of hayleigh will put a copy up.


----------



## paulds

Graham said:


> Well possibly, I'd just hate to see anyone wasting time and effort, I get a lot of unsolicited mail coming through my door and it all goes straight in the bin, same with most people I expect.
> 
> If you can't get to a store to protest then a calmly worded email to their customer care department is a good start, then think if you have any friends and relatives who might shop at the store and ask them if they'd mind boycotting it.
> 
> I have three neices who shop there and have just offered all of them a financial incentive to go elsewhere, which they gladly accepted! I made sure to mention this in my email to Lush too, so they know that it's not just a load of disgruntled reptile keepers who they're losing as customers.


Nice move :2thumb:

I agree that pretty much everything that comes through my door heads to the bin but that is because I am very well look after by my local kebab shop and wouldn't dream of going elsewhere : victory:


----------



## Asha

Spikebrit said:


> Fair enough, have you email head office with a complaint?
> 
> I've email dawn (discount koi) a copy of the flier so i'm hoping eith her of hayleigh will put a copy up.


Yep, already done (and got the usual automated response)... might send another one through now I've seen the APA leaflet though!

Discount Koi is my local shop too :2thumb:


----------



## Spikebrit

Asha said:


> I agree, and no - it isn't a good idea for anyone to get into trouble by standing outside their shops and handing out fliers... but isn't that what the fliers have been produced for?


standing out side high street shops to hand out leaflets is easy and legal, it's just when the shops are in shopping centres it becaomse a bit harder. But im just making you guys aware of what might happen. As i would hate for people to get into trouble about whats happening.


----------



## Spikebrit

Asha said:


> Yep, already done (and got the usual automated response)... might send another one through now I've seen the APA leaflet though!
> 
> Discount Koi is my local shop too :2thumb:


I spend far to much time in there. But yep Dawn and hayleigh have both been sent a copy and i've sent one to the shops email as well. 

Jay


----------



## Asha

Spikebrit said:


> I spend far to much time in there. But yep Dawn and hayleigh have both been sent a copy and i've sent one to the shops email as well.
> 
> Jay


Cool - I think stocking up reptile/pet shops in general with the fliers is a good plan... loses Lush even more customers that are passionate about the hobby.


----------



## Graham

> Nice move :2thumb:


Yes I thought so! I give them all money from time to time anyway, and an extra fiver each was well received.


----------



## southpython

Has enyone got a copy of the flyers we will be handing out ??

Wouldnt mind a look cause im going to be spending a fair bit of my time handing them out tomorrow :2thumb:


----------



## Asha

It's in a seperate thread in the general herp chat section, just come out of this one. 
Final version is still being tweaked.


----------



## paulds

southpython said:


> Has enyone got a copy of the flyers we will be handing out ??
> 
> Wouldnt mind a look cause im going to be spending a fair bit of my time handing them out tomorrow :2thumb:


There is a final draft due to be put out anytime now. : victory:


----------



## wildlifewarrior

anyone thought about writing a song about lush?:whistling2:


----------



## Graham

Link to the flyer is in this thread, but the final draft may not be ready yet?

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/general-herp-chat/562787-truth-about-reptiles-flyer-now.html


----------



## Roseanna

Graham said:


> Well possibly, I'd just hate to see anyone wasting time and effort, I get a lot of unsolicited mail coming through my door and it all goes straight in the bin, same with most people I expect.
> 
> If you can't get to a store to protest then a calmly worded email to their customer care department is a good start, then think if you have any friends and relatives who might shop at the store and ask them if they'd mind boycotting it.
> 
> I have three neices who shop there and have just offered all of them a financial incentive to go elsewhere, which they gladly accepted! I made sure to mention this in my email to Lush too, so they know that it's not just a load of disgruntled reptile keepers who they're losing as customers.


 I think i'll just hand some leaflets to people who i 100% know would be interested in listening and helping. I won't hand leaflets out to everyone or post them in people's letter boxes.

It's not wasting my time at all, i'd love to help in anyway i could so if anyone could suggest a way in which i could help then i'd love to


----------



## southpython

paulds said:


> There is a final draft due to be put out anytime now. : victory:


Ah great news! : victory: 

Thanks


----------



## southpython

Graham said:


> Link to the flyer is in this thread, but the final draft may not be ready yet?
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/general-herp-chat/562787-truth-about-reptiles-flyer-now.html


Got ya, just read through it. Looks good. I hope people will take the flyers and not just ignore us.


----------



## paulds

wildlifewarrior said:


> anyone thought about writing a song about lush?:whistling2:


A little rap.....

Lush is a company, they make soap, if they have their way you'll pets be on a rope.

Their shops smell like an old ladies purse, if i had my way they be needing a nurse.

Don't go into their shops or by into their crap, I hope you all enjoyed my little rap.

What what, check it!

Word to ya muther : victory:


----------



## wildlifewarrior

paulds said:


> A little rap.....
> 
> Lush is a company, they make soap, if they have their way you'll pets be on a rope.
> 
> Their shops smell like an old ladies purse, if i had my way they be needing a nurse.
> 
> Don't go into their shops or by into their crap, I hope you all enjoyed my little rap.
> 
> What what, check it!
> 
> Word to ya muther : victory:


i was thinking more like this



There a cosmetics shop called lush
really annoying, sort of like thrush
Working with the animal protection society
Cruelty to dogs is not high on there priority
You everything about nothing
But nothing about everything
Using the the radio to talk about crap
Just stick to selling lip chap 

Stand up for what you thinks right
Chris newman is like the shining light
Take a bow and unite
Stand up and let us fight

You lie about everything
I see comparisons to you and merciless ming
Bath bombs for a bath tub
Whats wrong with keeping a snake in a rub
Am a chameleon now get me out of here
Your talking BS like you’ve been on the beer
Tom Langton says were like paedophiles
What next? Are we raping crocodiles 


Stand up for what you thinks right
Chris newman is like the shining light
Take a bow and unite
Stand up and let us fight

Reptile keeping is pretty easy 
Like doing your ABC
Reptile Keepers been here for a while
More back stabbing that on Jeremy kyle
Buy one of lushs chameleon ballistic’s
Because they love to print made up WC statistics
Sing this song to get the gist
APA are around the bloody twist


----------



## Sephiroth

paulds said:


> A little rap.....
> 
> Lush is a company, they make soap, if they have their way you'll pets be on a rope.
> 
> Their shops smell like an old ladies purse, if i had my way they be needing a nurse.
> 
> Don't go into their shops or by into their crap, I hope you all enjoyed my little rap.
> 
> What what, check it!
> 
> Word to ya muther : victory:


*applause* :notworthy:


----------



## paulds

southpython said:


> Got ya, just read through it. Looks good. I hope people will take the flyers and not just ignore us.


i think a lot will depend on how we offer them.

If we stand there, head down and thrusting them at people, I don't think we will have much luck but a nice smile and a cheery hello will make all the difference : victory:


----------



## paulds

wildlifewarrior said:


> i was thinking more like this
> 
> 
> 
> There a cosmetics shop called lush
> really annoying, sort of like thrush
> Working with the animal protection society
> Cruelty to dogs is not high on there priority
> You everything about nothing
> But nothing about everything
> Using the the radio to talk about crap
> Just stick to selling lip chap
> 
> Stand up for what you thinks right
> Chris newman is like the shining light
> Take a bow and unite
> Stand up and let us fight
> 
> You lie about everything
> I see comparisons to you and merciless ming
> Bath bombs for a bath tub
> Whats wrong with keeping a snake in a rub
> Am a chameleon now get me out of here
> Your talking BS like you’ve been on the beer
> *Tom Langton says were like paedophiles*
> *What next? Are we raping crocodiles*
> 
> 
> Stand up for what you thinks right
> Chris newman is like the shining light
> Take a bow and unite
> Stand up and let us fight
> 
> Reptile keeping is pretty easy
> Like doing your ABC
> Reptile Keepers been here for a while
> More back stabbing that on Jeremy kyle
> Buy one of lushs chameleon ballistic’s
> Because they love to print made up WC statistics
> Sing this song to get the gist
> APA are around the bloody twist


Yes, yes, yes. i love that line. :notworthy:



Sephiroth said:


> *applause* :notworthy:


Thanks ya kindly, bo selcta : victory:


----------



## southpython

paulds said:


> i think a lot will depend on how we offer them.
> 
> If we stand there, head down and thrusting them at people, I don't think we will have much luck but a nice smile and a cheery hello will make all the difference : victory:


Got ya :2thumb:

Will do, cheers.


----------



## Graham

Smile and _ask_ them "Can I give you one of these please?", and don't give them the look when they say no or ignore you!


----------



## southpython

Graham said:


> Smile and _ask_ them "Can I give you one of these please?", and don't give them the look when they say no or ignore you!


Yeah no worries : victory:


----------



## paulds

southpython said:


> Got ya :2thumb:
> 
> Will do, cheers.





Graham said:


> Smile and _ask_ them "Can I give you one of these please?", and don't give them the look when they say no or ignore you!


 Sounds like were gonna rip it tomorrow, well done guys :notworthy:


----------



## Moosmoo

arhhhh nooooo!! its him again posting on their facebook wall!! why wont he go away?! :devil:


----------



## paulds

Moosmoo said:


> arhhhh nooooo!! its him again posting on their facebook wall!! why wont he go away?! :devil:


Because he is the pinnacle of the male genital : victory:


----------



## Moosmoo

Seriously does ANYONE have an email address or phone number for this guy? so they can explain how he is actually doing more damage than helping!


----------



## paulds

Moosmoo said:


> Seriously does ANYONE have an email address or phone number for this guy? so they can explain how he is actually doing more damage than helping!


He wouldn't give a crap, the reason he is banned from here is because he is a total tool bag, the best you can do is discredit what he does, while making it clear you are still pro rep, just anti dick head : victory:


----------



## daisyman97

paulds said:


> Because he is the pinnacle of the male genital : victory:


Beautifully phrased, and someone called shelly (don't know who she is on here) is telling him to be sensible but its not really getting through to him


----------



## shell2909

daisyman97 said:


> Beautifully phrased, and someone called shelly (don't know who she is on here) is telling him to be sensible but its not really getting through to him


i even emailed him but he's not listening :whip:


----------



## Moosmoo

paulds said:


> He wouldn't give a crap, the reason he is banned from here is because he is a total tool bag, the best you can do is discredit what he does, while making it clear you are still pro rep, just anti dick head : victory:





daisyman97 said:


> Beautifully phrased, and someone called shelly (don't know who she is on here) is telling him to be sensible but its not really getting through to him


I just don't understand, everyone from here who has been on that page has made it clear that we don't want anymore pictures being posted as it is not needed - just argh, hes really irritating me now, all this hard work and hes going like a bull in a china shop and making everything worse.


----------



## paulds

Moosmoo said:


> I just don't understand, everyone from here who has been on that page has made it clear that we don't want anymore pictures being posted as it is not needed - just argh, hes really irritating me now, all this hard work and hes going like a bull in a china shop and making everything worse.


It's because he looks like Casper the friendly ghost and is basically an internet big man. If he was to encounter one of these ladies in a real life situation he would run from their argument like he runs from soap.

Jordan if you are viewing this forum you are a total dick!!! Thanks for reading : victory:


----------



## wildlifewarrior

paulds said:


> Yes, yes, yes. i love that line. :notworthy:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks ya kindly, bo selcta : victory:


i aim to please


----------



## Moosmoo

shell - if thats you on facebook your picture is awesome! its limbo isnt it?? I sent a friend request! :lol2:


----------



## wohic

paulds said:


> Because he is the pinnacle of the male genital : victory:



I have tried messaging him on facebook just got a snotty leave me alone reply.....I am beginning to think he is a APA supporter as he is doing more good for them than us


----------



## paulds

wildlifewarrior said:


> i aim to please


and pleased I am : victory:


----------



## Khaos

Last night I was doing my best to keep the peace on the Facebook page (as Khal Harris), cooling down a few hothead reptile lovers and explaining to the soap-lovers what it was all about. And I think I got through to most of them. But a few of them really weren't getting it. One in particular, Jess, was dishing out massive steaming bowls of sixth-form level bullshit politics and philosophy. So I thought sod it, I'll take today off...


----------



## daisyman97

shell2909 said:


> i even emailed him but he's not listening :whip:


You seem to have stopped him... touch wood :banghead:

Well done : victory:


----------



## paulds

wohic said:


> I have tried messaging him on facebook just got a snotty leave me alone reply.....I am beginning to think he is a APA supporter as he is doing more good for them than us


I remember him on here and he is a total idiot.

People like that don't have the intelligence to be subversive, i just think he gets off on annoying people.

Probably has some very serious inadequacy issues :2thumb:


----------



## ilovemary

paulds said:


> It's because he looks like Casper the friendly ghost and is basically an internet big man. If he was to encounter one of these ladies in a real life situation he would run from their argument like he runs from soap.
> 
> Jordan if you are viewing this forum you are a total dick!!! Thanks for reading : victory:


 
wa i aint posted any more pics  and i stopped posting ow and thanks 4 offending me


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ilovemary said:


> wa i aint posted any more pics  and i stopped posting ow and thanks 4 offending me


Let me guess...you are jordan......


----------



## paulds

ilovemary said:


> wa i aint posted any more pics  and i stopped posting ow and thanks 4 offending me


Are you Jordan?


----------



## Moosmoo

ilovemary said:


> wa i aint posted any more pics  and i stopped posting ow and thanks 4 offending me



Jordan? you got banned, you shouldnt even be on here.


----------



## ilovemary

wildlifewarrior said:


> Let me guess...you are jordan......


 
yes : victory:


----------



## ilovemary

paulds said:


> Are you Jordan?


yhh the more gorwn up one


----------



## arnie23

everyone please look at this i think its great how many ppl are having ago at the lush facebook page and adding pictures of they reptile Log in | Facebook


----------



## ilovemary

paulds said:


> He wouldn't give a crap, the reason he is banned from here is because he is a total tool bag, the best you can do is discredit what he does, while making it clear you are still pro rep, just anti dick head : victory:


ow i dont give a crap tell me why im going to lush tomz with asha


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ilovemary said:


> yhh the more ******* gorwn up one


so you post crap that we dont want and now still swearing on forums that kids view....your still a joke mate


----------



## ilovemary

wildlifewarrior said:


> so you post crap that we dont want and now still swearing on forums that kids view....your still a joke mate


 
no mate i seen other people swearing on here what i can qoute


----------



## Asha

Moosmoo said:


> Jordan? you got banned, you shouldnt even be on here.


What did he do to get banned? 

He's only 15 guys, no need to be so harsh.


----------



## wohic

arnie23 said:


> everyone please look at this i think its great how many ppl are having ago at the lush facebook page and adding pictures of they reptile Log in | Facebook



lush customers are not the enemy ...they have no idea about the lies and propaganda spread by APA 'experts' 
the worst thing we can do is piss them off and alienate them


----------



## paulds

ilovemary said:


> ow i dont give a crap tell me why im going to lush tomz with asha


Jordan, people on FB were finally starting to listen to what was being said and you have gone on there and totally pissed everyone off, what good is it going to do upsetting people on there? We need them to listen to the facts not resign them to the fact that reptile keepers are annoying.

All I can say is if your going to Lush tomorrow, well done but FFS chill out : victory:


----------



## ilovemary

b4 you were all kind with me now you found out who i am your all harsh tell me wa have i done wrong since i joined on here


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ilovemary said:


> ow i dont give a crap tell me why im going to lush tomz with asha


wow your going to try campaign for us are you?

you mean the kid who tried to raid a wild adders nesting sight with his brother for free venomous snakes....the one who many times tried to use false identities to buy mild venomous snakes off me...or maybe the one who allowed his boa constrictor and pet rabbit to "play" with eachother on the lawn and then post it over the forums.......wow well good luck with that


----------



## reptile_man_08

Is this motty123?


----------



## wildlifewarrior

Asha said:


> What did he do to get banned?
> 
> He's only 15 guys, no need to be so harsh.


and? 15....hes not excalty a kid now is he....most 15 yr olds i know have a weekend job....and 15 hey? last year when i met him he was 12......how time flys hey

maybe looking through motty123 old threads will allow you to see why he was banned.....


----------



## ilovemary

paulds said:


> Jordan, people on FB were finally starting to listen to what was being said and you have gone on there and totally pissed everyone off, what good is it going to do upsetting people on there? We need them to listen to the facts not resign them to the fact that reptile keepers are annoying.
> 
> All I can say is if your going to Lush tomorrow, well done but FFS chill out : victory:


ok mate no probs ill stop


----------



## Asha

wildlifewarrior said:


> wow your going to try campaign for us are you?
> 
> you mean the kid who tried to raid a wild adders nesting sight with his brother for free venomous snakes....the one who many times tried to use false identities to buy mild venomous snakes off me...or maybe the one who allowed his boa constrictor and pet rabbit to "play" with eachother on the lawn and then post it over the forums.......wow well good luck with that


Wow, well in that case I don't think you coming would be a very good idea.
I have explained that I don't think there will be any fliering/protesting going on because it's a shopping centre - I'd mainly like to lodge a personal complaint and give the manager a flier. 
No causing a scene - AT ALL


----------



## wohic

stay on topic please guys............


----------



## paulds

Asha said:


> Wow, well in that case I don't think you coming would be a very good idea.
> I have explained that I don't think there will be any fliering/protesting going on because it's a shopping centre - I'd mainly like to lodge a personal complaint and give the manager a flier.
> No causing a scene - AT ALL


 Good call Asha, personally being ejected from a shopping centre won't be much fun anyway but we don't want to look like extremist idiots. : victory:


----------



## wildlifewarrior

wohic said:


> stay on topic please guys............


sowie...just dont want to make things worse in stoke...i have enough trouble from reptile haters when i am going to schools to teach kids, dont need much more of it:2thumb:


----------



## Ant and Soph

any chance you coud get jordan back out of our way again then? being a mod and all


----------



## ilovemary

wildlifewarrior said:


> wow your going to try campaign for us are you?
> 
> you mean the kid who tried to raid a wild adders nesting sight with his brother for free venomous snakes....the one who many times tried to use false identities to buy mild venomous snakes off me...or maybe the one who allowed his boa constrictor and pet rabbit to "play" with eachother on the lawn and then post it over the forums.......wow well good luck with that


 
what i never tried to catch a adder i never tried buy off u and tha pic the rabbit was far away and the pic just made them look close


----------



## Asha

paulds said:


> Good call Asha, personally being ejected from a shopping centre won't be much fun anyway but we don't want to look like extremist idiots. : victory:


Nope, I'd rather leave that to the APA


----------



## paulds

ilovemary said:


> ok mate no probs ill stop


Nice one :2thumb:


----------



## ilovemary

wildlifewarrior said:


> and? 15....hes not excalty a kid now is he....most 15 yr olds i know have a weekend job....and 15 hey? last year when i met him he was 12......how time flys hey
> 
> maybe looking through motty123 old threads will allow you to see why he was banned.....


i was 12 wtf i was 14


----------



## paulds

Asha said:


> Nope, I'd rather leave that to the APA


:2thumb:

Don't be suprised if some of them turn up though.

Don't get into a confrontation with them as there are some nut jobs out there. : victory:


----------



## Ant and Soph

Yeah just like to highlight that bit, I know its a way different business, but the last business lush sided with were linked to a murder, I dont expect the APA to go as far, However its not unlikely they could be violent, In which case we come across the good guys anyway


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ilovemary said:


> what i never tried to catch a adder i never tried buy off u and tha pic the rabbit was far away and the pic just made them look close


i have 37 e-mails saved on my outlook express from 4 different accounts of yours....of you asking to purchase mangroves off me plus false water cobras.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/247464-where-i-see-adder-uk.html

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/246573-u-pick-up-adder-out.html




ilovemary said:


> i was 12 wtf i was 14


ok if you say so.....

anyway back on topic


----------



## Moosmoo

haha Paul I saw what you did there!! sneaky!!:lol2:

'' if the campaign is causing so much hassle, maybe ask them to wrap it up early? '' :no1::lol2:


----------



## ilovemary

wildlifewarrior said:


> i have 37 e-mails saved on my outlook express from 4 different accounts of yours....of you asking to purchase mangroves off me plus false water cobras.
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/247464-where-i-see-adder-uk.html
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/246573-u-pick-up-adder-out.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ok if you say so.....
> 
> anyway back on topic


 
yh ok mate


----------



## paulds

Moosmoo said:


> haha Paul I saw what you did there!! sneaky!!:lol2:
> 
> '' if the campaign is causing so much hassle, maybe ask them to wrap it up early? '' :no1::lol2:


Hehe, worth a shout wasn't it : victory:


----------



## Moosmoo

paulds said:


> Hehe, worth a shout wasn't it : victory:



i doubt it will work but i lolled! :2thumb:


----------



## paulds

Moosmoo said:


> i doubt it will work but i lolled! :2thumb:


Just had one person say they mailed, so it might go somewhere. Kill em with kindness : victory:


----------



## reptile_man_08

Lol, good editing bothrops.


----------



## Omerov1986

I havent got time to read through all these pages but i just wanted to add, go to your local lush shop, and take about 10 copies more if you can, of there crappy free paper, and use it as substrate / lie it on the bottom of your vivariums, my royal did a whopping great turd on there logo last night im well proud


----------



## shell2909

Moosmoo said:


> shell - if thats you on facebook your picture is awesome! its limbo isnt it?? I sent a friend request! :lol2:


Yeah thats me 
I love Limbo :flrt:


----------



## paulds

It's all gone a bit quiet???


----------



## Sephiroth

paulds said:


> It's all gone a bit quiet???


the calm before the storm :lol2:


----------



## paulds

Sephiroth said:


> the calm before the storm :lol2:


With any luck dude.

Just a hint for those printing leaflets out at work 1000 copies is not pleasing to the boss :2thumb:


----------



## southpython

Sephiroth said:


> the calm before the storm :lol2:


Yup : victory:


----------



## Natrix

paulds said:


> With any luck dude.
> 
> Just a hint for those printing leaflets out at work 1000 copies is not pleasing to the boss :2thumb:


It's a health and safety issue.

It's better for his health and your safety if he doesn't know:lol2:

Gordon


----------



## paulds

Natrix said:


> It's a health and safety issue.
> 
> It's better for his health and your safety if he doesn't know:lol2:
> 
> Gordon


:lol2:

I think your right :2thumb:


----------



## Khaos

Guys, have we got a Facebook group for this yet? I've got people asking how they 'sign up' to the cause...


----------



## Freakinfreak

Khaos said:


> Guys, have we got a Facebook group for this yet? I've got people asking how they 'sign up' to the cause...


Rise Against lUSH'S Campaign ( to stop the keeping of Pets ) | Facebook

EDIT: not mine, btw.


----------



## paulds

Khaos said:


> Guys, have we got a Facebook group for this yet? I've got people asking how they 'sign up' to the cause...


Things on facebook got a bit carried away earlier, due to the help of a few idiots deliberately winding people up.

I can't see it being hugely productive tbh : victory:


----------



## wohic

I can do one if you wish ?

any preferred Title ?

EDIT......... Too slow lol


----------



## paulds

wohic said:


> I can do one if you wish ?
> 
> any preferred Title ?
> 
> EDIT......... Too slow lol


:lol2:


----------



## Freakinfreak

wohic said:


> I can do one if you wish ?
> 
> any preferred Title ?
> 
> EDIT......... Too slow lol


You make another if you like, it's not mine so I dunno who's it is but hey, ho! :lol2:


----------



## paulds

Right guys I'm outta here for the weekend.

For anyone getting involved tomorrow, good luck, protect yourself at all time and make sure it's a good clean fight.

Enjoy yourselves guys, it's a great thing we are doing : victory:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Good idea  



paulds said:


> Here is a list of Lush stores. If we can put our names next to the ones we can cover, well it will give us an idea of wheres covered :blush:
> 
> *MyShops*
> 
> For all the latest news and events, click your local MyShop below.
> *Click* to view our international shops.
> ABCDEGHIKLMNOPRSTVWY
> 
> myShop pageAberdeen
> myShop pageBath
> myShop pageBirmingham
> myShop pageBolton
> myShop pageBraehead
> myShop pageBristol
> myShop pageBuchanan St, Glasgow
> myShop pageCardiff
> myShop pageChelmsford
> myShop pageChester
> myShop pageColchester
> myShop pageCovent Garden
> myShop pageCrawley
> myShop pageDerby
> myShop pageDundee
> myShop pageExeter
> myShop pageGrafton Street, Dublin
> myShop pageHanley
> myShop pageHenry Street, Dublin
> myShop pageHull
> myShop pageKings Road
> myShop pageLakeside
> myShop pageLeicester
> myShop pageLiverpool
> myShop pageLuton
> myShop pageManchester
> myShop pageManchester, Trafford Centre
> myShop pageMerry Hill
> myShop pageMilton Keynes
> myShop pageNorthampton
> myShop pageNottingham
> myShop pagePeterborough
> myShop pagePoole
> myShop pagePortsmouth
> myShop pageReading
> myShop pageRomford
> myShop pageSheffield
> myShop pageSouth Molton Street
> myShop pageStratford
> myShop pageSwindon
> myShop pageTelford
> myShop pageVictoria Station
> myShop pageWatford
> myShop pageWimbledon
> myShop pageWorcester
> 
> myShop pageBasingstoke *Me! *
> myShop pageBelfast
> myShop pageBluewater
> myShop pageBournemouth
> myShop pageBrighton
> myShop pageBromley
> myShop pageCambridge
> myShop pageCarlisle
> myShop pageCheltenham
> myShop pageChichester
> myShop pageCork
> myShop pageCoventry
> myShop pageCroydon Adding others... Southpython & Dayle (hope you don't mind)
> 
> myShop pageDoncaster
> myShop pageEdinburgh
> myShop pageGateshead
> myShop pageGuildford
> myShop pageHarrogate
> myShop pageHigh Wycombe
> myShop pageInverness
> myShop pageKingston
> myShop pageLeeds
> myShop pageLincoln
> myShop pageLiverpool Street Station
> myShop pageMaidstone
> myShop pageManchester, Arndale
> myShop pageMeadowhall Centre, Sheffield
> myShop pageMiddlesbrough
> myShop pageNewcastle
> myShop pageNorwich
> myShop pageOxford
> myShop pagePlymouth
> myShop pagePortobello Road
> myShop pagePreston
> myShop pageRegent Street
> myShop pageSauchiehall St, Glasgow
> myShop pageSolihull
> myShop pageSouthampton
> myShop pageSwansea
> myShop pageTaunton
> myShop pageTruro
> myShop pageWarrington
> myShop pageWhite City
> myShop pageWindsor
> myShop pageYork
> 
> 
> *Lush SPAs*
> 
> myShop page Leeds
> myShop page Poole
> 
> myShop page London-Kings Road


How goes the final copy? 

Good luck everyone whos going out this weekend! : victory:


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny

I'm in plymouth if anyone wants to do something : victory:


----------



## southpython

no i dont mind u putting my name on there 

Gona be good enyways, just hope it aint cold! lol


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Brill, good luck  



Jazzy B Bunny said:


> I'm in plymouth if anyone wants to do something : victory:


Here is a list of Lush stores. If we can put our names next to the ones we can cover, well it will give us an idea of wheres covered :blush:

*MyShops*

For all the latest news and events, click your local MyShop below.
*Click* to view our international shops.
ABCDEGHIKLMNOPRSTVWY

myShop pageAberdeen
myShop pageBath
myShop pageBirmingham
myShop pageBolton
myShop pageBraehead
myShop pageBristol
myShop pageBuchanan St, Glasgow
myShop pageCardiff
myShop pageChelmsford
myShop pageChester
myShop pageColchester
myShop pageCovent Garden
myShop pageCrawley
myShop pageDerby
myShop pageDundee
myShop pageExeter
myShop pageGrafton Street, Dublin
myShop pageHanley
myShop pageHenry Street, Dublin
myShop pageHull
myShop pageKings Road
myShop pageLakeside
myShop pageLeicester
myShop pageLiverpool
myShop pageLuton
myShop pageManchester
myShop pageManchester, Trafford Centre
myShop pageMerry Hill
myShop pageMilton Keynes
myShop pageNorthampton
myShop pageNottingham
myShop pagePeterborough
myShop pagePoole
myShop pagePortsmouth
myShop pageReading
myShop pageRomford
myShop pageSheffield
myShop pageSouth Molton Street
myShop pageStratford
myShop pageSwindon
myShop pageTelford
myShop pageVictoria Station
myShop pageWatford
myShop pageWimbledon
myShop pageWorcester

myShop pageBasingstoke *Me! *
myShop pageBelfast
myShop pageBluewater
myShop pageBournemouth
myShop pageBrighton
myShop pageBromley
myShop pageCambridge
myShop pageCarlisle
myShop pageCheltenham
myShop pageChichester
myShop pageCork
myShop pageCoventry
myShop pageCroydon Adding others... Southpython & Dayle (hope you don't mind) 

myShop pageDoncaster
myShop pageEdinburgh
myShop pageGateshead
myShop pageGuildford
myShop pageHarrogate
myShop pageHigh Wycombe
myShop pageInverness
myShop pageKingston
myShop pageLeeds
myShop pageLincoln
myShop pageLiverpool Street Station
myShop pageMaidstone
myShop pageManchester, Arndale
myShop pageMeadowhall Centre, Sheffield
myShop pageMiddlesbrough
myShop pageNewcastle
myShop pageNorwich
myShop pageOxford
myShop pagePlymouth Jazzy B Bunny
myShop pagePortobello Road
myShop pagePreston
myShop pageRegent Street
myShop pageSauchiehall St, Glasgow
myShop pageSolihull
myShop pageSouthampton
myShop pageSwansea
myShop pageTaunton
myShop pageTruro
myShop pageWarrington
myShop pageWhite City
myShop pageWindsor
myShop pageYork

Flier looks amazing! great work :2thumb:


----------



## Moosmoo

has anyone else been on the lush page recently? someone is threatening getting the newspapers involved because shes been sent a load of a abuse from a reptile keeper


----------



## daisyman97

> Dear William,
> 
> Thank you for writing to us with your concerns about the Lush Times article, and I am grateful for this opportunity to explain why we are supporting the Animal Protection Agency (APA). At Lush we love creating fresh, lovely smelling, effective cosmetics that are kind to animals, people and the environment, and we use the proceeds from a number of our products to support causes and organisations with whom we share similar values.
> 
> The Animal Protection Agency (APA) campaigns against the trade in wild animals as pets, and works with scientists who are renowned experts in the fields of animal behaviour, veterinary medicine and conservation. APA has received wide support from politicians as well as the general public and their concerns about the exotic pet trade are echoed by the British Veterinary Association, the RSPCA, and all of the major animal welfare organisations.
> 
> With the Chameleon campaign we are trying to raise awareness of the suffering of reptiles in captivity and of the damage caused to species conservation by the trade in exotic pets. Our position, and that of the Animal Protection Agency, is clear: we believe that reptiles do not belong in the pet trade.
> 
> If you would like further information about any of the areas covered by the article please visit the APA website (www.apa.org) or contact the Animal Protection Agency directly at the details below.
> 
> Animal Protection Agency
> Brighton Media Centre
> 15-17 Middle Street
> Brighton
> BN1 1AL
> Tel: 01273 674253
> Email: [email protected]
> 
> Throughout the course of the year we support many humanitarian, animal and environmental causes, many of which are nominated by our own customers. We welcome and value all feedback, so thank you for getting in touch with us. I will be sure to pass your comments on to our Campaigns team for future consideration.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> 
> Kelly Cooke
> Customer Care
> Lush Retail Ltd
> T: 01202 641006
> E: [email protected]


Don't know if you may want to use any of this against them, it is all pretty much the average PR rubbish. They totally ignored the evidence I gave them of ancient tortoises and other reptiles that survive long lives. If anyone can work out anything in that to use against them feel free


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny

Moosmoo said:


> has anyone else been on the lush page recently? someone is threatening getting the newspapers involved because shes been sent a load of a abuse from a reptile keeper


Yeah I saw that  Although, shes probably just making it up... or deserved it!


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Yep, pretty much everyone got the same automated reply from them...


----------



## shell2909

Added for the York lush

*MyShops*

For all the latest news and events, click your local MyShop below.
*Click* to view our international shops.
ABCDEGHIKLMNOPRSTVWY

myShop pageAberdeen
myShop pageBath
myShop pageBirmingham
myShop pageBolton
myShop pageBraehead
myShop pageBristol
myShop pageBuchanan St, Glasgow
myShop pageCardiff
myShop pageChelmsford
myShop pageChester
myShop pageColchester
myShop pageCovent Garden
myShop pageCrawley
myShop pageDerby
myShop pageDundee
myShop pageExeter
myShop pageGrafton Street, Dublin
myShop pageHanley
myShop pageHenry Street, Dublin
myShop pageHull
myShop pageKings Road
myShop pageLakeside
myShop pageLeicester
myShop pageLiverpool
myShop pageLuton
myShop pageManchester
myShop pageManchester, Trafford Centre
myShop pageMerry Hill
myShop pageMilton Keynes
myShop pageNorthampton
myShop pageNottingham
myShop pagePeterborough
myShop pagePoole
myShop pagePortsmouth
myShop pageReading
myShop pageRomford
myShop pageSheffield
myShop pageSouth Molton Street
myShop pageStratford
myShop pageSwindon
myShop pageTelford
myShop pageVictoria Station
myShop pageWatford
myShop pageWimbledon
myShop pageWorcester

myShop pageBasingstoke *Me! *
myShop pageBelfast
myShop pageBluewater
myShop pageBournemouth
myShop pageBrighton
myShop pageBromley
myShop pageCambridge
myShop pageCarlisle
myShop pageCheltenham
myShop pageChichester
myShop pageCork
myShop pageCoventry
myShop pageCroydon Adding others... Southpython & Dayle (hope you don't mind) 

myShop pageDoncaster
myShop pageEdinburgh
myShop pageGateshead
myShop pageGuildford
myShop pageHarrogate
myShop pageHigh Wycombe
myShop pageInverness
myShop pageKingston
myShop pageLeeds
myShop pageLincoln
myShop pageLiverpool Street Station
myShop pageMaidstone
myShop pageManchester, Arndale
myShop pageMeadowhall Centre, Sheffield
myShop pageMiddlesbrough
myShop pageNewcastle
myShop pageNorwich
myShop pageOxford
myShop pagePlymouth Jazzy B Bunny
myShop pagePortobello Road
myShop pagePreston
myShop pageRegent Street
myShop pageSauchiehall St, Glasgow
myShop pageSolihull
myShop pageSouthampton
myShop pageSwansea
myShop pageTaunton
myShop pageTruro
myShop pageWarrington
myShop pageWhite City
myShop pageWindsor
myShop pageYork Sephiroth,Shell2909,Arnie23 and his OH


----------



## Moosmoo

a guy from their campaigns team has commented in the discussion thread on facebook if anyone was interested in what a lush rep had to say?


----------



## southpython

*Finally a reply. on their facebook discussion.*

Heya guys. I just wanted to post a few thoughts about the chameleon campaign that we’ve been running on our stores and online the last week. I work on Lush’s campaigns team, so think I can help clear up a few of the issues that have been batted back and forth. 

The campaign, first and foremost, is in support of the Animal Protection Agency (APA) and the good work that they do. Elaine, who heads up the organisation, has a real passion and concern for animal protection and conservation, and many of us at Lush were deeply touched when she came to a recent managers meeting and told us about the problems with the trade in wild animals. We decided to give her group a boost, and the ‘I’m a chameleon get me out of here’ campaign was born. 

Elaine is knowledgeable, detail oriented, and a straight-talker. We are confident about the statistics and facts that the APA use, and indeed, are used by some of the worlds biggest and most influential animal protection groups. The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS.org) is one of those, and anyone who wants to learn about the trade in exotic animals should read their report, here: 

http://www.hsus.org/wildlife/issues_facing_wildlife/wildlife_trade/live_reptile_trade/the_trade_in_live_reptiles_imports_to_the_united_states.html 

It’s inevitable that we’ll upset some people when we run our ethical campaigns. In the last few years alone, we’ve angered a bunch of people---the oil industry (when we advocated wind and solar energy), the fox hunters (when we campaigned for the enforcement of the Hunting Act), the Japanese government (when we supported Sea Shepherd), the Premier of Alberta (when we worked to raise awareness about the environmental destruction of the Canadian tar sands), the UK aviation industry (when we encouraged people to take trains instead of flying), the bio fuel industry (when we suggested that expanding palm oil plantations were forcing tribes from their jungle homes and killing orang-utans), and some select MPs (when we campaigned to end the torture of prisoners in Guantanamo Bay). 

Any time you take a stand on an issue, someone, somewhere, will disagree with you. We welcome that tension--it creates a space for debate and awareness, and that often leads to change. 

The chameleon campaign is about highlighting the problems with keeping exotic animals as pets. Many of them are wild caught, many of them die in transit and many people don’t know how complex their needs are. Reptiles are hard-wired for life in the wild. Chameleons, for example, haven’t had centuries of domestication that cats and dogs have had, so life in a tank isn’t going to be good compared to the vastness offered by a jungle home. 

I hope that our campaign will get people to think twice before buying an exotic animal from a pet store or a breeder. I totally appreciate that there are a lot of reptile keepers that care for their animals tremendously. They spend thousands of pounds on equipment to control temperature and provide care, which is amazing. But ultimately, exotic animals are being bred for a life of captivity, and I feel that’s hardly a life worth living. 

At Lush, we love our customers. They are like family to us (a very big and ruckus and colourful family), and in any family you’ll have a variety of opinions and characters. I’ve got an older brother, Bill, who works for an oil company. You can imagine what Christmas dinner is like—the environmentalist vs the oil executive. No matter how much arguing we get up to, tho, he’s still family and I still enjoy his company. Hopefully, it’ll be the same with our fans here. You might disagree with some of the things that we get up to, but hopefully, you’ll stick with us in the end.


----------



## southpython

Moosmoo said:


> a guy from their campaigns team has commented in the discussion thread on facebook if anyone was interested in what a lush rep had to say?


Posted above mate :2thumb:


----------



## reptile_man_08

Wank*rs


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

What a load of ****

basically, "we don't care. We're right, and your all wrong, and our facts are perfect because we say they are."


----------



## reptile_man_08

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> What a load of ****
> 
> basically, "we don't care. We're right, and your all wrong, and our facts are perfect because we say they are."


.."we're good, and aren't you few people special because you spend THOUSANDS on care for your chameleon"
Friggin retarded.
It's great we're compared to the oil industry and fox hunters too...


----------



## daisyman97

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> What a load of ****
> 
> basically, "we don't care. We're right, and your all wrong, and our facts are perfect because we say they are."


Yes this has been their stance all along, its quite ignorant really...:bash:


----------



## Moosmoo

just had a look at the guy that is their representative, hes a member of peta on facebook *rolls eyes* what a surprise eh?


----------



## Dragon Wolf

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> basically, "we don't care. We're right, and your all wrong, and our facts are perfect because we say they are."


And what is also frightening, is the fact that these people do believe strongly in their own propaganda.

They truly believe that their view is the only view that counts and that anyone who disagrees with them is to be ignored or forced in any way possible to agree with them!


----------



## Gina.

He just totally ignored what I said about Veiled chameleons not being WC last year and that fact that captive breeding has stopped Crested Geckos going extinct :bash:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Dragon Wolf said:


> And what is also frightening, is the fact that these people do believe strongly in their own propaganda.
> 
> They truly believe that their view is the only view that counts and that anyone who disagrees with them is to be ignored or forced in any way possible to agree with them!





Gina. said:


> He just totally ignored what I said about Veiled chameleons not being WC last year and that fact that captive breeding has stopped Crested Geckos going extinct :bash:


Yep, totally blanked our well thought out argument with evidence for their We say so and thats final rebuttal. Worrying, scary, and very very pathetic.


----------



## daisyman97

Dragon Wolf said:


> And what is also frightening, is the fact that these people do believe strongly in their own propaganda.
> 
> They truly believe that their view is the only view that counts and that anyone who disagrees with them is to be ignored or forced in any way possible to agree with them!


Yes this is scary. I am sure many of us can understand the no pets view on the basic level, but they can't seem to see the point of pets, and they also believe all pets lead bad lives. It is slightly sad they don't have this interspecies love in my opinion. 

Though that probably doesn't make sense what I have just written :whistling2:


----------



## southpython

Gina. said:


> He just totally ignored what I said about Veiled chameleons not being WC last year and that fact that captive breeding has stopped Crested Geckos going extinct :bash:


i read your post and " nodded". Great post and agree with everything you said there :no1:


----------



## Gina.

southpython said:


> i read your post and " nodded". Great post and agree with everything you said there :no1:


Thanks 
I don't know a massive amount about reptiles but i'm trying my best!


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Gina. said:


> Thanks
> I don't know a massive amount about reptiles but i'm trying my best!


You know more than they do though  

And your trying, thats what counts!  

Lets see if we can get a better, less generalized and rude response after the weekends demonstrations are through shall we :whistling2:


----------



## shell2909

Gina. said:


> Thanks
> I don't know a massive amount about reptiles but i'm trying my best!


I think you did the best you could in your posts to him  it doesnt matter that he ignored your cham bit, if one person did read it and changed their mind about lush's campaign its a result : victory:


----------



## Gina.

shell2909 said:


> I think you did the best you could in your posts to him  it doesnt matter that he ignored your cham bit, if one person did read it and changed their mind about lush's campaign its a result : victory:


Thanks.
I guess thats all we can hope for really. We just need to get the real facts out there so people can realise that the APA are lying!


----------



## shell2909

Gina. said:


> Thanks.
> I guess thats all we can hope for really. We just need to get the real facts out there so people can realise that the APA are lying!


yep, thats all we can do really.
hopefully people will read our flyers and we will get a possitive result


----------



## Natrix

Everything you do (like the leaflet) should be aimed at educating the public. Lush, just like the APA are a money making business that have discovered they can make more by using false information to extract money from those gullible enough to believe their stories.

This atitude is what the FBH has been fighting for over 15 years now. First it was CAPS then Animal Aid and now the APA. Basically this is all based on a report by ex reptile dealer Clifford Warwick. Despite having been discredited many times it has been constantly re-hashed over the last 15 years to delude the public into sending in thousands of pounds to save all the imaginary suffering animals and all the time there is thousands of pounds to be made certain groups will keep printing this stuff and rattling the collection tins.

Gordon


----------



## southpython

Gina. said:


> Thanks
> I don't know a massive amount about reptiles but i'm trying my best!


Lol it would seem you know a fair bit 

I cant believe that i will be away from the forums for most of the day! lol

then once i come back ive got hundreds of rodents to clean and pack to sell for the next day :whip:


----------



## wohic

I see the logo pic on facebook is now their Gorilla campaign one  when i looked earlier they had cham one up


----------



## excession

wohic said:


> I see the logo pic on facebook is now their Gorilla campaign one  when i looked earlier they had cham one up



Yup they changed that a few hours back


----------



## southpython

So we have Won ?

I dont know if i should go to the croydon one tomorrow. I mean if dayle is still wanting to go then ill go but if its over then wats the point ?


----------



## Freakinfreak

They may have done this to see if you lot think they've hushed down so you won't cause them any more damage... If I were you I'd still go, play dumb and ask what the chameleon thing is about and if they say that it's finished or whatever then leave it, if they feed you lies or tell you about it and it's still on then change your tune and get ready for battle! :whip:


----------



## Moosmoo

The rep on the facebook page has said the campaign is over :no1: However he then says that all their campaigns only last a week in store, however it hasn't been a week? I would have thought the weekend would be the busiest time so therefore the best time to push for sales? (even if that push is a load of untrue drivel)


----------



## Freakinfreak

Moosmoo said:


> The rep on the facebook page has said the campaign is over :no1: However he then says that all their campaigns only last a week in store, however it hasn't been a week? I would have thought the weekend would be the busiest time so therefore the best time to push for sales? (even if that push is a load of untrue drivel)


I don't know if you should believe it and anyways if it IS over then I think people who were originally going to go and have a word should go and ask what it's all about and play dumb. See what they say and how much they know, it could be a giggle :razz:


----------



## southpython

Freakinfreak said:


> They may have done this to see if you lot think they've hushed down so you won't cause them any more damage... If I were you I'd still go, play dumb and ask what the chameleon thing is about and if they say that it's finished or whatever then leave it, if they feed you lies or tell you about it and it's still on then change your tune and get ready for battle! :whip:


Well ive just called the person i was going with, ill be getting a pm soon to say if we are going or not.

Cheers all. : victory:


----------



## ipreferaflan

Look on the discussions tab. The campaign ended today but the chameleon ballista things or w/e they're called are on sale for the whole of August.
A member of the Lush campaign team signed in and joined the discussion. It was brilliant.


----------



## Ant and Soph

Please dont just think we have won guys, Its easy to trick people into thinking that they won, However its pretty unexplainable that they hype up these events for the weekend and then suddenly cancel nationwide....That wouldnt go down well with their customers, Everything planned for tomorrow is still VERY likely to be happening, regardless of having a few images removed, However the idea of playing dumb is a good one


----------



## shell2909

Just a thought .. maybe they have taken the cham campaign poster off their shops because their new line of perfumes went up today.
They may of also taken it off the webpage on FB because they thought we might stop posting on there.
I'm still going to york tomorrow to had out flyers. we need to undo the damage they did!!


----------



## Sephiroth

This isn't over guys... they have done alot of damage and that needs to be undone.

The purpose of this for me hasn't been to stop Lush though that is a bonus. I was sure ASA would have been able to do that. 

Our campaign has been to counter their lies and support what we know to be true and hold dear to our hearts. 

This has only just begun. APA will still be campaigning against the reptile shows and the keeping of reptiles. These protests will diminish any credibility they may have had.


----------



## ipreferaflan

Sephiroth said:


> This isn't over guys... they have done alot of damage and that needs to be undone.
> 
> The purpose of this for me hasn't been to stop Lush though that is a bonus. I was sure ASA would have been able to do that.
> 
> Our campaign has been to counter their lies and support what we know to be true and hold dear to our hearts.
> 
> This has only just begun. APA will still be campaigning against the reptile shows and the keeping of reptiles. These protests will diminish any credibility they may have had.


I agree with you, Mike. I'm Harvey from the fb page by the way.


----------



## Freakinfreak

Sephiroth said:


> This isn't over guys... they have done alot of damage and that needs to be undone.
> 
> The purpose of this for me hasn't been to stop Lush though that is a bonus. I was sure ASA would have been able to do that.
> 
> Our campaign has been to counter their lies and support what we know to be true and hold dear to our hearts.
> 
> This has only just begun. APA will still be campaigning against the reptile shows and the keeping of reptiles. These protests will diminish any credibility they may have had.


Even if it has been taken off early it's something people still deserve to know. I think it might be a good idea to see where Lush is with the whole campaign so be slightly ass-lickish to a manager or something and if they get all cocky and stupid let 'em have it :whip:


----------



## Gina.

Sephiroth said:


> This has only just begun. APA will still be campaigning against the reptile shows and the keeping of reptiles. These protests will diminish any credibility they may have had.


Agreed, we need to keep an eye on the APA and be there at the start of any future campaigns they try and start.

Just because they may not have any of the chameleons left in the stores doesn't mean we can't still educate the customers. The campaign is still on the website anyway.


----------



## southpython

its 50/50 on if we are going to croydon tomorrow, sorry. 

Dayle is going to log on in the morning and have a look at everything and decide. Im all up for it if he is.

Good luck for those that are still doing it, hope all goes well. Ill write on here if im going or not in the morning.


----------



## daisyman97

> [unnamed] seriosly dont botherd getting it it stains skin and bath with pink dots and dosent smell of much! worst bath bomb ever sorry lush i usally like ur bath bombs and other stuff


Taken off the lush fb page about the Chameleon Bath Bomb, proof it was a rubbish product as well! :lol2:


----------



## Roseanna

The whole of this campaign has just enraged me! I passed a lush shop today and it just reminded me of all of this, it's made me feel furious, all day i've been arguing against the campaign!.

What i'd like to know is if the APA want to stop reptile keepers from owning reps and if they do win (not saying they will) then what do they intend to do with all the reptiles kept as pets? Also, the reptile industry is HUGE, if they stop reptiles being kept as pets then a lot of people will loose buisness etc etc.

Grrr, why are us reptile owners always being targeted? :devil:


----------



## shell2909

Just in case anyone missed it this is what Sean from lush has wrote:
*Sean Gifford 

The campaign only ran in our stores for a week--just like all of our ethical campaigns. The chameleon ballistic is a limited edition product and the stores won't be getting any more (in fact, most have already sold out) because we wanted to raise a certain amount of cash for the APA. So if you don't see the ballistic in the stores, it's because we met our fundraising target. 

Our shops will be selling the ballistic for the entire month of August until supplies run out. 

As for the ASA, I'm sure we'll be hearing from them just as we did with the fox hunting campaign. 
*


----------



## Ant and Soph

Gina. said:


> Agreed, we need to keep an eye on the APA and be there at the start of any future campaigns they try and start.
> 
> Just because they may not have any of the chameleons left in the stores doesn't mean we can't still educate the customers. The campaign is still on the website anyway.


Maybe make this known to the FBH, They are very on top of things with the APA and would likely love to know that we are all here ready to back them in the future as well as just this campaign, they would know whats happening first too I imagine


----------



## Gina.

Roseanna said:


> What i'd like to know is if the APA want to stop reptile keepers from owning reps and if they do win (not saying they will) then what do they intend to do with all the reptiles kept as pets? Also, the reptile industry is HUGE, if they stop reptiles being kept as pets then a lot of people will loose buisness etc etc.


I asked this question to Sean (who is the campaign manager or something for Lush) and he just said that a complete ban is unlikely to happen.


----------



## Roseanna

Gina. said:


> I asked this question to Sean (who is the campaign manager or something for Lush) and he just said that a complete ban is unlikely to happen.


 Aha thats ok then! i'm glad that a complete ban won't happen.Still,they need to get there facts right to be honest.


----------



## Gina.

Roseanna said:


> Aha thats ok then! i'm glad that a complete ban won't happen.Still,they need to get there facts right to be honest.


Yeah, one of the things that angered me a lot is that they are/were running in store sessions for children, telling them how wrong reptile keeping is :devil:


----------



## Roseanna

Gina. said:


> Yeah, one of the things that angered me a lot is that they are/were running in store sessions for children, telling them how wrong reptile keeping is :devil:


 SERIOUSLY?! was this in every store? What right do they have! people working in lush don't even have qaulifications to sell soap let alone have any qaulifications to understand or know anything about reptiles!!! :devil:.
I just don't get how reptile keeping is cruel or wrong!.


----------



## Ant and Soph

Roseanna said:


> SERIOUSLY?! was this in every store? What right do they have! people working in lush don't even have qaulifications to sell soap let alone have any qaulifications to understand or know anything about reptiles!!! :devil:.
> I just don't get how reptile keeping is cruel or wrong!.


Its not, APA fed them a load of lies. In regards to it not being a total ban though, dont really see any reason to confide there considering they had no reason to be sticking their noses in from the start


----------



## Roseanna

Ant and Soph said:


> Its not, APA fed them a load of lies. In regards to it not being a total ban though, dont really see any reason to confide there considering they had no reason to be sticking their noses in from the start


 Same here. like others have said, i reckon it's just a money making scam, trying to target gullable people into buying a product which is supposidly going to a good cause :censor:. People who don't understand reptiles have no right to be slaughtering us for owning them! :devil:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Sephiroth said:


> This isn't over guys... they have done alot of damage and that needs to be undone.
> 
> The purpose of this for me hasn't been to stop Lush though that is a bonus. I was sure ASA would have been able to do that.
> 
> Our campaign has been to counter their lies and support what we know to be true and hold dear to our hearts.
> 
> This has only just begun. APA will still be campaigning against the reptile shows and the keeping of reptiles. These protests will diminish any credibility they may have had.


^^ Exactly. Even if this one is over, whens the next attack coming? 

Just because Lush have finished it, doesn't mean the APA/others haven't. 

Education is all we can do, if we can prove this one wrong, then it throws doubt on the (inevitable) next one. : victory:


----------



## bothrops

The standard statements above from the LUSH representatives show exactly what we're upagainst. It is very much like cults and extreme religions...a central dogma of choice (in this case, 'animals shouldn't be interacted with at all') and then get hold of a few random 'facts' (either from the cult leaders, a book or a random, self proclaimed 'expert' who says what you want to hear)..becasue you are a person without a questioning mind, who is happy to follow the pack (because you believe unerringly in the aforementioned central dogma) you will take everything you are told on face value *if it agrees with the central dogma *and importantly *IGNORE* *anything that doesn't*.

These guys aren't interested at all in the truth, only their ideals. Just look at how the LUSH guy describes Elaine..he makes her sound like some sort of messiah, rather than the misdirected (but very clever, devious and money minded) person that she is...(did I mention she keeps reptiles herself:whistling2



or to put it another way....


"Argueing with an Animal Rights Activist is like playing chess with a pigeon. He will knock all the pieces over, crap on the board and then fly home and claim victory...."



Good luck tomorrow guys...*keep it friendly!*


----------



## Kare

Looking at the Lush website there have been many campaigns and I have heard of exactly none of them, so either I have been living under a rock (with the reptiles!) or this one will go the same way


----------



## Ant and Soph

I think your point is great, however I think we need to direct it at the people behind the APA, Elaine etc. We can dicredit the APA all we want and all we get is the same business under a new name, If we discredit the people behind it, its much harder for them to hide from it


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Ant and Soph said:


> I think your point is great, however I think we need to direct it at the people behind the APA, Elaine etc. We can dicredit the APA all we want and all we get is the same business under a new name, If we discredit the people behind it, its much harder for them to hide from it


very true :2thumb: 

Someones got their thinking caps on xD Trouble is that's a little harder to do, isn't it?


----------



## Ant and Soph

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> very true :2thumb:
> 
> Someones got their thinking caps on xD Trouble is that's a little harder to do, isn't it?


It is indeed but it all depends on the methods, Over a course of time we will acheive this but it would take much longer. All of it should still be aimed at the APA of course but make use of every opportunity to out the people behind it just as much too. Simple good example was the radio show the other day, besides fighting our corner I think Chris done a pretty good job of discrediting tom(?) as a scientist. Just mean we should take all subtle opportunies possible as the people behind APA have plenty of things to be ashamed of just as the organization as a whole does


----------



## rum&coke

OK just had a look at the facebook page and it looks like they have pulled the campaign obviously they are not going to admit its because of the backlash they are saying it was due to finish now anyway:lol2:
I don't know if its been covered in the past few pages of this thread but are you all still planning on protesting at lush stores?
If you are I have to say I'm not sure if that would be a good move as after all LUSH were never the enemy they were just a convenient way for us to get to the APA, now if you go ahead with attacking LUSH it could just undo any good we have done with weakening there support for the APA. If they think we will attack if they back the APA again it may make them think twice about it but if they think we are going to hound them forever regardless then they will probably just carry on with supporting them.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

might be an idea rather than writing to customer services of lush, write to the guy that owns the company and express your feeelings/concerns with their campaign, his address can be found via most search engines as he is a company director it has to be available to the public by law, 

for example the below info can be found here...
http://wip.nbrealestate.co.uk/property/1/oxfordstreet328-332/Documents/B%20NEVER%20TOO%20BUSY%20TO%20BE%20BEAUTIFUL%20LTD.pdf


Mr Mark Constantine, Director
Address 24 Constitution Hill Road , Poole , Dorset , BH14 0QD , UNITED KINGDOM
Date of Birth 21 Jul 1952
Nationality British
Occupation Coy Director
Date Appointed 02 May 2003


----------



## Ant and Soph

Just had a thought, maybe the ASA stepped in? People have been complaining to them for a while now


----------



## shell2909

rum&coke said:


> OK just had a look at the facebook page and it looks like they have pulled the campaign obviously they are not going to admit its because of the backlash they are saying it was due to finish now anyway:lol2:
> I don't know if its been covered in the past few pages of this thread but are you all still planning on protesting at lush stores?
> If you are I have to say I'm not sure if that would be a good move as after all LUSH were never the enemy they were just a convenient way for us to get to the APA, now if you go ahead with attacking LUSH it could just undo any good we have done with weakening there support for the APA. If they think we will attack if they back the APA again it may make them think twice about it but if they think we are going to hound them forever regardless then they will probably just carry on with supporting them.


The campaign is still on their website, smaller but there.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

lol yeah, looks that way  
um, I think the general idea is to still go, to discredit the facts that lush were given by the APA. I think lush may have been used a little here anyway, and hopefully anyone who goes will stick to the point, that we're there to discredit and correct facts they have already released to the public (falsely) maybe its an idea to mention the APA and explain that the info we're talking about came from them and was spread by lush, thereby not just blaming lush for all this?


----------



## rum&coke

shell2909 said:


> The campaign is still on their website, smaller but there.


yes but they are saying it's been pulled from the shops, Your gonna look a bit of a tool handing flyer's to LUSH customers telling them not to buy the chameleon bath bombs and then when they go in the stores there are no chameleon bath bombs or APA posters up.


----------



## bothrops

LFBP-NEIL said:


> might be an idea rather than writing to customer services of lush, write to the guy that owns the company and express your feeelings/concerns with their campaign, his address can be found via most search engines as he is a company director it has to be available to the public by law,
> 
> for example the below info can be found here...
> http://wip.nbrealestate.co.uk/prope...ents/B NEVER TOO BUSY TO BE BEAUTIFUL LTD.pdf
> 
> 
> Mr Mark Constantine, Director
> Address 24 Constitution Hill Road , Poole , Dorset , BH14 0QD , UNITED KINGDOM
> Date of Birth 21 Jul 1952
> Nationality British
> Occupation Coy Director
> Date Appointed 02 May 2003


Unfortunately (if you read all the replies from him and his campaign managers) you will see he is exactly the sort of person I refered to in my previous post on here (check back!)....i.e. he is a AR guys himself and 100%, unerringly and despite the facts, supports PETA, APA, AA, HSA etc...he is so used to causing controversy that the 'backlash emails' are (I imagine) water of a ducks back. As I said, he is not interested in the truth, only his own opinion being heard.


----------



## Ant and Soph

rum&coke said:


> yes but they are saying it's been pulled from the shops, Your gonna look a bit of a tool handing flyer's to LUSH customers telling them not to buy the chameleon bath bombs and then when they go in the stores there are no chameleon bath bombs or APA posters up.


Although they stop promoting the campaign at the end of the week, the proceeds from chameleon bath nukes are going towards the APA's so called ethical cause until the end of august, Plus we can still aim to teach the public that the figures they were tought were wrong and are not the sort of thing you would want your children to be taught just to market a product


----------



## shell2909

rum&coke said:


> yes but they are saying it's been pulled from the shops, Your gonna look a bit of a tool handing flyer's to LUSH customers telling them not to buy the chameleon bath bombs and then when they go in the stores there are no chameleon bath bombs or APA posters up.


Instead we can say Lush and APA had a campaign about reptiles can we tell you the facts please *smile and eyelash flutter*
they have done some damage and we need to rectify it the APA have a website devoted to their lies. What do you want us to do? nothing? show lush that we are all talk and np action therefore they can try and ruin our hobby again in the future.
If we give someone a flyer that remembers the chameleon bathbomb and they read our leaflet we may get them to see our positive side 

plus i've used up all of my OH's ink on 50 flyers :blush:


----------



## Gina.

Ant and Soph said:


> Although they stop promoting the campaign at the end of the week, the proceeds from chameleon bath nukes are going towards the APA's so called ethical cause until the end of august, Plus we can still aim to *teach the public that the figures they were tought* *were wrong* and are not the sort of thing you would want your children to be taught just to market a product


This (in bold) is one of the main things.
Even though some of the shops will be sold out of the chameleon, Lush customers will still be aware of the campaign. We can still educate people, and tell them the real facts about reptile keeping. Even though the damage is done now and the APA have their money from sales, if people know that the APA were lying they are less likely to believe them next time. Because the APA will do this again with a similar company. The public will always buy stuff if they think its for a good cause, and if its in a shop like Lush where they buy things from regularly anyway.


----------



## Ant and Soph

I doubt if they are out of stock, the sales continue all month, its only the campaign that ends this week, they arent limited edition either, my partner said she has seen them in the store in past at cambridge, so maybe they are on the shelves occasionally, or perhaps permanently, however APA are still receiving money from them for the rest of the month so we do still have a chance to reduce their gains


----------



## rum&coke

shell2909 said:


> Instead we can say Lush and APA had a campaign about reptiles can we tell you the facts please *smile and eyelash flutter*
> they have done some damage and we need to rectify it the APA have a website devoted to their lies. What do you want us to do? nothing? show lush that we are all talk and np action therefore they can try and ruin our hobby again in the future.
> If we give someone a flyer that remembers the chameleon bathbomb and they read our leaflet we may get them to see our positive side
> 
> plus i've used up all of my OH's ink on 50 flyers :blush:


Yeah you have a point , just that I know some times things can get moving and snowball and would not want to see people potentially get into trouble for nothing. I mean if the police get called or security and you say your protesting LUSH's campaign and lush say the campaign is over its not going to go down to well in your favor. But still I'm sure you will handle it all nicely and keep out of trouble.


----------



## Gina.

rum&coke said:


> Yeah you have a point , just that I know some times things can get moving and snowball and would not want to see people potentially get into trouble for nothing. I mean if the police get called or security and you say your protesting LUSH's campaign and lush say the campaign is over its not going to go down to well in your favor. But still I'm sure you will handle it all nicely and keep out of trouble.


The campaign is not over though, its still on the website and it says it is running all through August


----------



## rum&coke

Gina. said:


> The campaign is not over though, its still on the website and it says it is running all through August


Oh I'm sure it was supposed to run until the end of August but they are saying its finished on the face book page and people have been saying the stores don't have the posters up or the bath bombs on sale. Websites can take a few days to get updated especially as its the weekend and they may have pulled the campaign early and unexpectedly. They wont turn around and say that they have done as that will mean admitting defeat and I don't think they are the type of company to ever admit they were wrong.


----------



## shell2909

rum&coke said:


> Yeah you have a point , just that I know some times things can get moving and snowball and would not want to see people potentially get into trouble for nothing. I mean if the police get called or security and you say your protesting LUSH's campaign and lush say the campaign is over its not going to go down to well in your favor. But still I'm sure you will handle it all nicely and keep out of trouble.



I won't get arrested, i don't like confrontations. i will hand out flyers and say what i need to say


----------



## shell2909

rum&coke said:


> Oh I'm sure it was supposed to run until the end of August but they are saying its finished on the face book page and people have been saying the stores don't have the posters up or the bath bombs on sale. Websites can take a few days to get updated especially as its the weekend and they may have pulled the campaign early and unexpectedly. They wont turn around and say that they have done as that will mean admitting defeat and I don't think they are the type of company to ever admit they were wrong.


They updated their website today with the new perfume range hence the reason i'm a cham has gone to a smaller slot.


----------



## andy007

As Bothrops says, Mark Constantine, the MD of Lush, is an avid environmentalist himself. He was the guy that was putting up the legal fee's for the activists that broke through Stansted airports fence and brought it to a standstill. He has always been on the side of environmental groups and will probably just report anyone that emails him to their isp's and claim he is being spammed.
From what I've read about him, he will absolutely 100% take no notice of any correspondence.


----------



## Ant and Soph

rum&coke said:


> Oh I'm sure it was supposed to run until the end of August but they are saying its finished on the face book page and people have been saying the stores don't have the posters up or the bath bombs on sale. Websites can take a few days to get updated especially as its the weekend and they may have pulled the campaign early and unexpectedly. They wont turn around and say that they have done as that will mean admitting defeat and I don't think they are the type of company to ever admit they were wrong.


By the way the people who we were discussing with on facebook said they dont actually represent lush, although I havent followed it today so it may be different people now, however the woman said she was admin for the page, but doesnt represent or speak for lush


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Ant and Soph said:


> By the way the people who we were discussing with on facebook said they dont actually represent lush, although I havent followed it today so it may be different people now, however the woman said she was admin for the page, but doesnt represent or speak for lush


A lush guy turned up not long ago : victory:


----------



## Gina.

Ant and Soph said:


> By the way the people who we were discussing with on facebook said they dont actually represent lush, although I havent followed it today so it may be different people now, however the woman said she was admin for the page, but doesnt represent or speak for lush


The guy I (and others) was talking to today, Sean, is campaigns manager or something like that.


----------



## rum&coke

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> A lush guy turned up not long ago : victory:


 
:lol2: that sounds so wrong


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

rum&coke said:


> :lol2: that sounds so wrong


:roll: Completely not how I meant that :lol2:


----------



## Ant and Soph

The guy on the FB page seems to be a :censor: too lol. Doesnt seemt to have much regard for the ASA or what they can do for the companys reputation. Considering they owned him just a few months back I thought he would be a bit smarter than that. Hell I could do a better job of PR than that guy


----------



## LaNz

Hey guys,

Apologies for only just coming across this topic.... BUT, i have just sat and read all 64 pages! lol Firstly I want to congratulate everyone on what an excellent job you are all doing - It is so good to see everyone standing up for what we believe in and enjoy, and more importantly, the TRUTH!! 

Secondly, are we saying that this muppet lives/works in Poole...?

"Mr Mark Constantine, Director
Address 24 Constitution Hill Road , Poole , Dorset , BH14 0QD , UNITED KINGDOM
Date of Birth 21 Jul 1952
Nationality British
Occupation Coy Director
Date Appointed 02 May 2003"

If so I only live 10 mins away, shall I personally deliver a flyer via his letter box?! haha! 

:beer8:


----------



## Ant and Soph

Yeah the company was first setup from poole too actually. A lot of people will like that idea!l ol


----------



## Pete Q

I'm still going to a lush store today, I think we all should if we can.


----------



## Ant and Soph

Did anyone actually go in the end? I woud have but local branch is further than I can afford at the moment...late late payment has flumoxed me


----------



## Sephiroth

york protest complete success!

we were outside the doors of Lush in York between 2:30 and 4:30, handed out around 250 of the flyers. Alot of people were very receptive and the Lush staff were very friendly and understanding  

we have some pictues but won't be able to upload until I get home... Shelly has a good photo of both of us outside the shop taken by one of the Lush staff! :lol2: 

Thanks for coming Shelly!

York still has the media in the shops and a pile of chameleon bombs.

Hope others had as good a response!

:no1:


----------



## Ant and Soph

Sephiroth said:


> york protest complete success!
> 
> we were outside the doors of Lush in York between 2:30 and 4:30, handed out around 250 of the flyers. Alot of people were very receptive and the Lush staff were very friendly and understanding
> 
> we have some pictues but won't be able to upload until I get home... Shelly has a good photo of both of us outside the shop taken by one of the Lush staff! :lol2:
> 
> Thanks for coming Shelly!
> 
> York still has the media in the shops and a pile of chameleon bombs.
> 
> Hope others had as good a response!
> 
> :no1:


Glad to hear it, hopefully others will have had good responses, this thread has been dead all day so am guessing a lot of people still went ahead


----------



## southpython

Gd to hear it was a sucsess. Me and dayle did not go to the croydon branch. Decision made by both of us.

hope everyone elses day went well :no1:


----------



## fiesta599

glad it went well in york.i walked past my local lush store in sheffield to see if anyone was handing out flyers and to offer my support on my way home from work and lush arent advertising the campaign anymore and i had a quick peek and couldnt see any chameleon bath bombs.so they have either sold out or they decided to stop selling them.


----------



## shell2909

Sephiroth said:


> york protest complete success!
> 
> we were outside the doors of Lush in York between 2:30 and 4:30, handed out around 250 of the flyers. Alot of people were very receptive and the Lush staff were very friendly and understanding
> 
> we have some pictues but won't be able to upload until I get home... Shelly has a good photo of both of us outside the shop taken by one of the Lush staff! :lol2:
> 
> Thanks for coming Shelly!
> 
> York still has the media in the shops and a pile of chameleon bombs.
> 
> Hope others had as good a response!
> 
> :no1:


You got to a computer fast :lol2:
As Mike says we got an amazing response, even put someone off from buying from Lush : victory:
first up we wanted to see if the campaign was still going on 








....it was:bash:

Mike doing his bit 









Nice of the Lush staff to take a pic of us together


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

shell2909 said:


> You got to a computer fast :lol2:
> As Mike says we got an amazing response, even put someone off from buying from Lush : victory:
> first up we wanted to see if the campaign was still going on
> image
> ....it was:bash:
> 
> Mike doing his bit
> image
> 
> Nice of the Lush staff to take a pic of us together
> image


Nice one guys :no1:
Any other events planned now? 

Finally managed to get some ink for the printer xD just printed the first flier here, looks even better in real life :no1:


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny

off topic, but Mike is quite good looking :blush: :lol2:

I didnt go to the Plymouth store today as I would of been on my own and they have stopped selling the bath bombs now. 

Good work


----------



## shell2909

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> off topic, but Mike is quite good looking :blush: :lol2:
> 
> I didnt go to the Plymouth store today as I would of been on my own and they have stopped selling the bath bombs now.
> 
> Good work



Haha i know :blush:


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny

I love his hat :blush::flrt:


----------



## Sephiroth

you guys! :blush:

For some reason I thought we were smiling in that photo! lol

pretty sure Khaos was still up for doing his local either today or tomorrow after the show... other than that, I don't know if anyone else has confirmed they're doing anything.

I know it may seem odd if they have taken all their propaganda down, but this will still help educate people on the "Truth About Reptiles"! 

:no1:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> off topic, but Mike is quite good looking :blush: :lol2:
> 
> I didnt go to the Plymouth store today as I would of been on my own and they have stopped selling the bath bombs now.
> 
> Good work





shell2909 said:


> Haha i know :blush:



Apparently (according to the mother xD) He looks like me... except with hair I used to have :whistling2:

:lol2::lol2:


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny

ooh pics :flrt: :lol2:


----------



## shell2909

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Apparently (according to the mother xD) He looks like me... except with hair I used to have :whistling2:
> 
> :lol2::lol2:



Really :blush:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Oh dear.... In one of the albums theres a couple I think xD lol


----------



## Freakinfreak

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Apparently (according to the mother xD) He looks like me... except with hair I used to have :whistling2:
> 
> :lol2::lol2:


He does :shock:

Pretty eyes :flrt:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> ooh pics :flrt: :lol2:





shell2909 said:


> Really :blush:





Freakinfreak said:


> He does :shock:
> 
> Pretty eyes :flrt:


:blush::blush:

Reptile Forums - TheMetaphysicalNinja's Album: stuffs

:whistling2:


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny

oooo :flrt:


----------



## daisyman97

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> :blush::blush:
> 
> Reptile Forums - TheMetaphysicalNinja's Album: stuffs
> 
> :whistling2:


In the last picture you seem to have aged quite a bit... Reptile Forums - TheMetaphysicalNinja's Album: stuffs - Picture :lol2:e yo
And have you guys (Metaphysical and Mike) got Latin routes? It looks like it


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> oooo :flrt:


Good sound that :whistling2:


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny

:lol2:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

daisyman97 said:


> In the last picture you seem to have aged quite a bit... Reptile Forums - TheMetaphysicalNinja's Album: stuffs - Picture :lol2:


yeah... there was a mix up, and that's what Lush's products did!! :gasp:
But it got better, back to the other photos now :whistling2:

:lol2::lol2:


----------



## Freakinfreak

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> yeah... there was a mix up, and that's what Lush's products did!! :gasp:
> But it got better, back to the other photos now :whistling2:
> 
> :lol2::lol2:


You love yourself, doncha?!


----------



## Khaos

Sephiroth said:


> you guys! :blush:
> 
> For some reason I thought we were smiling in that photo! lol
> 
> pretty sure Khaos was still up for doing his local either today or tomorrow after the show... other than that, I don't know if anyone else has confirmed they're doing anything.


Well, I was going to, but I can't match up to that hat...

Haha I went for a scout today (I actually went along in my capacity as a journalist, camera, notepad and dictaphone in tow, to see what's happen...) but, lo and behold, the Kingston store has removed all traces of the campaign, no posters, no leaflets, no chameleons.

Very interesting.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

daisyman97 said:


> In the last picture you seem to have aged quite a bit... Reptile Forums - TheMetaphysicalNinja's Album: stuffs - Picture :lol2:e yo
> And have you guys (Metaphysical (Adam) and Mike) got Latin routes? It looks like it


I haven't... I don't think anyway xD 



Freakinfreak said:


> You love yourself, doncha?!


Noooooooooooooooooo....... :lol2:



Khaos said:


> Well, I was going to, but I can't match up to that hat...
> 
> Haha I went for a scout today (I actually went along in my capacity as a journalist, camera, notepad and dictaphone in tow, to see what's happen...) but, lo and behold, the Kingston store has removed all traces of the campaign, no posters, no leaflets, no chameleons.
> 
> Very interesting.


Lol... yes... very, very interesting... convenient timing much...


----------



## Freakinfreak

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Noooooooooooooooooo....... :lol2:


Dot, dot, dot.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Freakinfreak said:


> Dot, dot, dot.


Dot, dot dot dot dot dot dot!! 

Not anything hidden in there xD I use dots far too much :whistling2:


----------



## shell2909

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> :blush::blush:
> 
> Reptile Forums - TheMetaphysicalNinja's Album: stuffs
> 
> :whistling2:



Ooooo you do :blush:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

shell2909 said:


> Ooooo you do :blush:


Again.... good sound that  

:whistling2:


----------



## shell2909

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Again.... good sound that
> 
> :whistling2:



:lol2::flrt:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

shell2909 said:


> :lol2::flrt:


Should probably head off thread with this... kind of off the topic a bit.... 

TMN didn't go to Shell's photos by the way, just in case anyone was wondering 

I used my Ninja skills and think I found Freakinfreak on facebook xD 

So, topic, Lush, bad, mean, APA smells funny!! 

Any plans of action now guys?? 

:whistling2:


----------



## Freakinfreak

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Should probably head off thread with this... kind of off the topic a bit....
> 
> TMN didn't go to Shell's photos by the way, just in case anyone was wondering
> 
> I used my Ninja skills and think I found Freakinfreak on facebook xD
> 
> So, topic, Lush, bad, mean, APA smells funny!!
> 
> Any plans of action now guys??
> 
> :whistling2:


We use you as bait.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Bait for what? 

I'm game... depending... ?


----------



## Freakinfreak

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Bait for what?
> 
> I'm game... depending... ?


For fishing for things.


----------



## shell2909

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Should probably head off thread with this... kind of off the topic a bit....
> 
> TMN didn't go to Shell's photos by the way, just in case anyone was wondering
> 
> I used my Ninja skills and think I found Freakinfreak on facebook xD
> 
> So, topic, Lush, bad, mean, APA smells funny!!
> 
> Any plans of action now guys??
> 
> :whistling2:


What about my pics? (confuddled)

anyway with the plan of action ... i'm not sure.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Freakinfreak said:


> For fishing for things.


:hmm:
... 

What sort of things.... ? 

APA things?


----------



## Freakinfreak

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> :hmm:
> ...
> 
> What sort of things.... ?
> 
> APA things?


More important things than that.
Special things.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

shell2909 said:


> What about my pics? (confuddled)
> 
> anyway with the plan of action ... i'm not sure.


Red dress... Vampires :mf_dribble:
*ahem* Apparently, we're going fishing... ?



Freakinfreak said:


> More important things than that.
> Special things.


Really? What sort of special things???? Are they shiny? 
Sounds fun. 
Do I have to get wet, being this bait and all? Getting wet isn't something I tend to like doing...


----------



## shell2909

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Red dress... Vampires :mf_dribble:
> *ahem* Apparently, we're going fishing... ?



:blush::blush:
are we? :whistling2:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

shell2909 said:


> :blush::blush:
> are we? :whistling2:


lol, didn't see that coming? :lol2:

Apparently :whistling2:

And I'm the bait... for special things lol.


----------



## shell2909

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> lol, didn't see that coming? :lol2:
> 
> Apparently :whistling2:
> 
> And I'm the bait... for special things lol.


no i didnt :lol2:

Wear should we put the hook :hmm:


----------



## daisyman97

Wow I leave you guys for a couple of hours to get tea and get my babies to bed, come back and an APA topic is talking about fishing for special stuff :whistling2:


----------



## Ant and Soph

daisyman97 said:


> Wow I leave you guys for a couple of hours to get tea and get my babies to bed, come back and an APA topic is talking about fishing for special stuff :whistling2:


The campaign is over man just admit it lol, Hate to say it but apart from a couple stores, Where people did some real good stuff today, Think overall our impact was pretty small


----------



## daisyman97

Ant and Soph said:


> The campaign is over man just admit it lol, Hate to say it but apart from a couple stores, Where people did some real good stuff today, Think overall our impact was pretty small


Yes I know its over, I'm just amazed how it turned onto that topic :lol2:
And yeah at least they have removed the campaign so no more lies are being spread.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

daisyman97 said:


> Wow I leave you guys for a couple of hours to get tea and get my babies to bed, come back and an APA topic is talking about fishing for special stuff :whistling2:


Yup... Not my fault :whistling2:



shell2909 said:


> no i didnt :lol2:
> 
> Wear should we put the hook :hmm:


Hahaha! Smooth :whistling2:
Still... 

Um... lets forgo the hook shall we? :lol2:
Do have some pre-made holes though, 6mm big enough? :lol2:



Ant and Soph said:


> The campaign is over man just admit it lol, Hate to say it but apart from a couple stores, Where people did some real good stuff today, Think overall our impact was pretty small


Aye we really didn't get a lot done today, but there is still plenty more that can be done!!! : victory:


----------



## shell2909

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Yup... Not my fault :whistling2:
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha! Smooth :whistling2:
> Still...
> 
> Um... lets forgo the hook shall we? :lol2:
> Do have some pre-made holes though, 6mm big enough? :lol2:
> 
> 
> 
> Aye we really didn't get a lot done today, but there is still plenty more that can be done!!! : victory:



hehe yeah i thinks that will be big enough :lol2:

Me and Mike did a pretty damn good job today and if theres a few more that did too at least our message got passed on! :2thumb:


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny

Anyone have facebook? (since this has gone way off topic) :lol2:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

shell2909 said:


> hehe yeah i thinks that will be big enough :lol2:
> 
> 
> Me and Mike did a pretty damn good job today and if theres a few more that did too at least our message got passed on! :2thumb:


Whoop, no poking holes with hooks in me! :lol2:


Yeah you guys did brill! Thats the idea, pass the real message around, it's just a matter of time until this all comes up again... and we all know it. I have a few fliers here ready to use should the opportunity come up! 
:2thumb:


----------



## shell2909

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> Anyone have facebook? (since this has gone way off topic) :lol2:


yeah i'm shelly jellybean lester
my picture is the Limbo game 

Thanks tmn


----------



## Freakinfreak

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> Anyone have facebook? (since this has gone way off topic) :lol2:


Meeeeeeee!
BUT I will need a deposit of exactly one fruit pastille.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> Anyone have facebook? (since this has gone way off topic) :lol2:


Me  



shell2909 said:


> yeah i'm shelly jellybean lester
> my picture is the Limbo game
> 
> Thanks tmn


Your welcome lol  



Freakinfreak said:


> Meeeeeeee!
> BUT I will need a deposit of exactly one fruit pastille.


I don't have any of them at the moment... but i already found you, (I think...) so do detective ninja powers count? :lol2:


----------



## shell2909

Freakinfreak said:


> Meeeeeeee!
> BUT I will need a deposit of exactly one fruit pastille.


 damn why didnt i think of bribery


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny

Think I added you :lol2: Here's me:
http://www.facebook.com/JazzyBBunny


----------



## shell2909

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> Think I added you :lol2: Here's me:
> http://www.facebook.com/JazzyBBunny



yay you found me:2thumb:


----------



## Ant and Soph

Sorry didnt mean to sound negative at all in my last post, you guys all done a great job, anyone who done anything at all to help done great as a lot of people would do nothing


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny

shell2909 said:


> yay you found me:2thumb:


:2thumb:


----------



## Khaos

I'm on Facebook as Khal Harris. My photo is me and Keith Flint at a superbike race


----------



## shell2909

Ant and Soph said:


> Sorry didnt mean to sound negative at all in my last post, you guys all done a great job, anyone who done anything at all to help done great as a lot of people would do nothing


thank you


----------



## shell2909

Khaos said:


> I'm on Facebook as Khal Harris. My photo is me and Keith Flint at a superbike race


i dont know who Keith Flint is but i think i found you


----------



## Freakinfreak

shell2909 said:


> damn why didnt i think of bribery


It takes a lot of skill 

Haaha, nah, I'm kidding. Abbie Thwaite with the picture like... 4 girls, I'm the one in all black pretty much, Puma hoodie. Warning: Some of my status' may offend :whistling2:


----------



## shell2909

Freakinfreak said:


> It takes a lot of skill
> 
> Haaha, nah, I'm kidding. Abbie Thwaite with the picture like... 4 girls, I'm the one in all black pretty much, Puma hoodie. Warning: Some of my status' may offend :whistling2:



Had to add you just to see what this status is : victory:

I have no skill *sighs*


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

shell2909 said:


> yeah i'm shelly jellybean lester
> my picture is the Limbo game
> 
> Thanks tmn





Jazzy B Bunny said:


> Think I added you :lol2: Here's me:
> http://www.facebook.com/JazzyBBunny





Khaos said:


> I'm on Facebook as Khal Harris. My photo is me and Keith Flint at a superbike race





Freakinfreak said:


> It takes a lot of skill
> 
> Haaha, nah, I'm kidding. Abbie Thwaite with the picture like... 4 girls, I'm the one in all black pretty much, Puma hoodie. Warning: Some of my status' may offend :whistling2:


Think I'm going to add all of you... you have been warned 

Edit: By the way, I'm Adam xD


----------



## shell2909

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Think I'm going to add all of you... you have been warned



hahaha you haven't seen mine FB page yet :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Think I'm going to add all of you... you have been warned


Accepted :lol2:


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny

I have some weird pics on there by the way :lol2:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

shell2909 said:


> hahaha you haven't seen mine FB page yet :Na_Na_Na_Na:


Haha... We'll see xD 



Jazzy B Bunny said:


> I have some weird pics on there by the way :lol2:


Hmm..... :lol2:


----------



## Freakinfreak

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> I have some weird pics on there by the way :lol2:


*Goes to perve*


----------



## shell2909

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> I have some weird pics on there by the way :lol2:


don't worry about it, i'm covered in blood in some of mine (fake blood but still looks bloody messy lol)


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Freakinfreak said:


> *Goes to perve*


yeah their not that bad xD 


Not that I looked already or anything :whistling2:


----------



## shell2909

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> yeah their not that bad xD
> 
> 
> Not that I looked already or anything :whistling2:


i bet you had a look before she even mentioned it :Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


----------



## Khaos

Ooh, new friends...

Oh, and Keith is the lead singer of the Prodigy.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

shell2909 said:


> i bet you had a look before she even mentioned it :Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


Nope :whistling2:


:lol2:


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny

:lol2:


----------



## shell2909

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Nope :whistling2:
> 
> 
> :lol2:


What ya like :lol2:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

shell2909 said:


> What ya like :lol2:


Innocent :whistling2:


:mf_dribble:


----------



## shell2909

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Innocent :whistling2:
> 
> 
> :mf_dribble:


:lol2::lol2:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

shell2909 said:


> :lol2::lol2:


What? What? What!? 


Like you can talk :whistling2:

:lol2::lol2:


----------



## nomnom14

Sephiroth said:


> york protest complete success!
> 
> we were outside the doors of Lush in York between 2:30 and 4:30, handed out around 250 of the flyers. Alot of people were very receptive and the Lush staff were very friendly and understanding
> 
> we have some pictues but won't be able to upload until I get home... Shelly has a good photo of both of us outside the shop taken by one of the Lush staff! :lol2:
> 
> Thanks for coming Shelly!
> 
> York still has the media in the shops and a pile of chameleon bombs.
> 
> Hope others had as good a response!
> 
> :no1:


That's great!

I'm arnie23's OH btw, so sorry we couldn't come today, my leopard gecko did an escape artist trick last night! Was in a bit of a state.
We've found her now, thank god.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

nomnom14 said:


> That's great!
> 
> I'm arnie23's OH btw, so sorry we couldn't come today, my leopard gecko did an escape artist trick last night! Was in a bit of a state.
> We've found her now, thank god.


If you'd gone, and not looked for her, you might just come across as the bad keeper they think we all are :gasp:

Glad she turned up safe and sound :2thumb:


----------



## shell2909

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> What? What? What!?
> 
> 
> Like you can talk :whistling2:
> 
> :lol2::lol2:


:gasp::Na_Na_Na_Na:



> *nomnom14*  _That's great!
> 
> I'm arnie23's OH btw, so sorry we couldn't come today, my leopard gecko did an escape artist trick last night! Was in a bit of a state.
> We've found her now, thank god._


glad you found her


----------



## nomnom14

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> If you'd gone, and not looked for her, you might just come across as the bad keeper they think we all are :gasp:
> 
> Glad she turned up safe and sound :2thumb:


Yeah samee


----------



## nomnom14

shell2909 said:


> glad you found her


Thank you, so am I


----------



## Ant and Soph

I dunno how the hell you guys find eachother on that dastardly little website lol, Just tried to upload pics of my snakes and update my status....Whadya know it cant even put those in the right order lol.

You guys should just make a snake group.....it would be better than always posting pics to get the reaction of 'ewwwww a snake' each an everytime I bother to actually waste my time uploading them lol`


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

lol we link via here (Jazzy) or search... it seems to work  

Yeah... most of the people I know like the snakes though lol.... might put some feeding pics up, see what they make of that xD


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

I hate to say it... but maybe we could still use the flier, but reword it so the Lush parts are reduced when their campaign is over and totally gone? Only a lot of works gone into it, and it would be brilliantly useful just as a education tool, especially if the APA have another go (which I can see happening...) 

: victory:


----------



## shell2909

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> I hate to say it... but maybe we could still use the flier, but reword it so the Lush parts are reduced when their campaign is over and totally gone? Only a lot of works gone into it, and it would be brilliantly useful just as a education tool, especially if the APA have another go (which I can see happening...)


Good idea : victory:


----------



## reptile_man_08

Well really to stop APA's crap getting stuck in peoples heads, and the media's general misinformed representation of herps, we should be educating the general community that reptiles can make great pets - in the first place...I know of quite a few on here that go to schools etc to educate.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Yeah... trouble is a lot of the time people don't want to listen... and doing the schools and things stuff requires permits and licenses


----------



## reptile_man_08

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Yeah... trouble is a lot of the time people don't want to listen... and doing the schools and things stuff requires permits and licenses


Indeed.


----------



## Ant and Soph

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Yeah... trouble is a lot of the time people don't want to listen... and doing the schools and things stuff requires permits and licenses


Any idea what permits and liscences? Im way too young right now to get a respected response anyway but its the sort of thing I would love to do in the future. Also if you have to be a 'qualified' herpotologist? Im a study in my own time, my own way person so that would kind of kill the idea lol


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Ant and Soph said:


> Any idea what permits and liscences? Im way too young right now to get a respected response anyway but its the sort of thing I would love to do in the future. Also if you have to be a 'qualified' herpotologist? Im a study in my own time, my own way person so that would kind of kill the idea lol


No, you don't actually have to be a herpetologist lol. There's not actually any courses/qualifications that "make" you one either. It's public liability/insurance/performing animals licenses you need. Wildlife Warrior Has one, I'm sure he'd be able to tell you the exact permits and things you need : victory:


----------



## tomswel1

I dont think the reptile keeping world will be taken over by lush or the APA but i do feel there are still improvements that can be done on the reptile keeping side, there are still people like exotic-pets.co.uk that seem to have a fair share of wc animals and too many pet shops selling animals in incorrect enviroments. Theres an awful lot of unwanted reptiles in classifieds, these things only help to give them a cause.
I do think Reptiles are still too easy to obtain by anyone and unfortunately there's still a lot of ignorant people buying them though things are far better than in years past
As for stats i think they can very inaccurate at best


----------



## Ant and Soph

tomswel1 said:


> I dont think the reptile keeping world will be taken over by lush or the APA but i do feel there are still improvements that can be done on the reptile keeping side, there are still people like exotic-pets.co.uk that seem to have a fair share of wc animals and too many pet shops selling animals in incorrect enviroments. Theres an awful lot of unwanted reptiles in classifieds, these things only help to give them a cause.
> I do think Reptiles are still too easy to obtain by anyone and unfortunately there's still a lot of ignorant people buying them though things are far better than in years past
> As for stats i think they can very inaccurate at best


Dont suppose you would happen to be a certain member of the APA would you?


----------



## Roseanna

tomswel1 said:


> . Theres an awful lot of unwanted reptiles in classifieds, these things only help to give them a cause.
> I do think Reptiles are still too easy to obtain by anyone and unfortunately there's still a lot of ignorant people buying them though things are far better than in years past
> As for stats i think they can very inaccurate at best


 Problem is, they are pointing the finger at EVERY reptile keeper! Just because one or two keepers are irresponsible and have no idea how to look after reptiles doesn't mean all of us are! it's the same for any animal owner, Go up to a dogs home and check out how many dogs there are that have been abandoned! just because some owners are abandoning dogs and some are treating them like crap doesn't mean they all are! To me it seems like tha APA are pointing the finger at us all an it's not right at all!.

Yh there are always going to be people selling reptiles! doesn't necesarily mean it's because they can't look after them or handle them! and yes there will always be ignorant people but like i say there is NO need to point the finger at all of us reptile keepers and start talking crap about certain statistics such as so many reptiles die in captivity in the first year. To me this is what i feel the APA are all about and it angers me!.


----------



## tomswel1

Ant and Soph said:


> Dont suppose you would happen to be a certain member of the APA would you?


No and as reptile keeper myself i think thats a silly question, i'm no supporter of them either, they get too much wrong. At the same time i dont believe reptile keepers should hide the fact there are still problems out there, Things are far better than they used to be but they are also far from perfect. Dont jump on me again i might ask you if one i'll treated reptile is worth the hobby existing as one being sent by RM was so one too many.


----------



## tomswel1

Roseanna said:


> Problem is, they are pointing the finger at EVERY reptile keeper! Just because one or two keepers are irresponsible and have no idea how to look after reptiles doesn't mean all of us are! it's the same for any animal owner, Go up to a dogs home and check out how many dogs there are that have been abandoned! just because some owners are abandoning dogs and some are treating them like crap doesn't mean they all are! To me it seems like tha APA are pointing the finger at us all an it's not right at all!.
> 
> Yh there are always going to be people selling reptiles! doesn't necesarily mean it's because they can't look after them or handle them! and yes there will always be ignorant people but like i say there is NO need to point the finger at all of us reptile keepers and start talking crap about certain statistics such as so many reptiles die in captivity in the first year. To me this is what i feel the APA are all about and it angers me!.


trouble is there's a lot more than one or two irresponsible reptile keepers and dealers but yes i agree to point the finger at everyone is just as irresponsible. You go through the classifieds and ask the sellers a few questions,you'll get a lot of strange answers and many and far too many dont even know what specie or morph they've got. I always think stats are crap and often vastly exagerated one way or another and what they are pointing at can be said for all animals from goldfish to horses, its not just a reptile problem. But lets not pretend there is no problem.
Where there's money involved and a demand for something there's always going to be a problem


----------



## Graham

You make some perfectly reasonable points I think, I've been keeping reptiles for over 25 years and things have changed immensely in that time, but the hobby still has some problems and the more popular it becomes the worse some of those problems become.

The issue of unwanted animals has always been with us, but now it's on a much bigger scale than ever before, it's something we need to address very seriously because if we don't it's just ammo for the antis.

Same with WC animals, that's something that's improving, but as long as animals are being taken from the wild to satisfy the pet trade there will be people who object to it.

In some ways the hobby is a victim of it's own success, when relatively few people kept reptiles, just a few weirdos and studious professorial types really, it went almost unnoticed. Now though every other schoolkid has a corn or a leo or some kind of bug, and it's kind of hard to hide that!

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, because I think that kids keeping reptiles in a responsible manner is very educational, but the bigger it gets the more people are likely to object to it.


----------



## tomswel1

Trouble is as with so many animals, its "mummy can i have one of those?" and too many mummys and daddys say yes without any knowledge of what they're buying hence they end up on the unwanted list if they survive that long, they are too easily and readily obtainable.
That changing is somethimg i think needs to be done.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

tomswel1 said:


> Trouble is as with so many animals, its "mummy can i have one of those?" and too many mummys and daddys say yes without any knowledge of what they're buying hence they end up on the unwanted list if they survive that long, they are too easily and readily obtainable.
> That changing is somethimg i think needs to be done.


Responsible selling is I think what your getting at? 

I mean, making sure the buyer knows what the animal needs before letting them take it. 
Problems getting sellers to actually pay attention (some, not all I know) and ask the right questions before taking the money.


----------



## Ant and Soph

tomswel1 said:


> No and as reptile keeper myself i think thats a silly question, i'm no supporter of them either, they get too much wrong. At the same time i dont believe reptile keepers should hide the fact there are still problems out there, Things are far better than they used to be but they are also far from perfect. Dont jump on me again i might ask you if one i'll treated reptile is worth the hobby existing as one being sent by RM was so one too many.


Mate you just seem a bit out of place backing that now considering you admitted to the RM stuff, not going to go into it because theres no need, I dont disagree that the issues actually need to be sorted out, Theres loads of different parts that need sorting too its not just transportation etc. But it seemed you were agreeing with them mate, Im on your side if your agaisnt them, and if you want things to change for the better we have the same goal, Like I said mate :censor: the RM stuff, If you have the same aim then obviously learnt from mistakes, I was just asking as you seemed to be backing them and the previous thread you were in you were more supportive of the issues themselves, cant be bothered to argue mate but you just seem biased to me, only opinion, but at the end of the day who cares, your backing the same cause anyway

On topic though, surely anyway if things dont change we are soon likely to receive some ban of some sort in the hobby, Besides the APA you only have to consider how many tv channels put themselves out to highlight the bad points of trades, and if we are selected and then they can make us look just as bad as any other trade


----------



## sharpstrain

I went into lush in my local town today and took a pooh in the till - when that asked what I was doing, I said is that exotic enough for you


----------



## Graham

> surely anyway if things dont change we are soon likely to receive some ban of some sort in the hobby


Exactly, we really need to be our own fiercest critics and take a good honest look at all aspects of our hobby, because you can be sure if we don't then others will, as we've seen this week.

We basically have two choices, either put our own house in order, or sit back and pretend nothing is wrong and let someone else come along and put it in order for us, I suggest the former would be far preferable from our point of view!

We do need to get over this stupid attitude though, where as soon as anyone so much as mentions there might be a problem within the hobby they get labelled as one of the antis, it really doesn't help at all.


----------



## tomswel1

Ant and Soph said:


> Mate you just seem a bit out of place backing that now considering you admitted to the RM stuff, not going to go into it because theres no need, I dont disagree that the issues actually need to be sorted out, Theres loads of different parts that need sorting too its not just transportation etc. But it seemed you were agreeing with them mate, Im on your side if your agaisnt them, and if you want things to change for the better we have the same goal, Like I said mate :censor: the RM stuff, If you have the same aim then obviously learnt from mistakes, I was just asking as you seemed to be backing them and the previous thread you were in you were more supportive of the issues themselves, cant be bothered to argue mate but you just seem biased to me, only opinion, but at the end of the day who cares, your backing the same cause anyway
> 
> On topic though, surely anyway if things dont change we are soon likely to receive some ban of some sort in the hobby, Besides the APA you only have to consider how many tv channels put themselves out to highlight the bad points of trades, and if we are selected and then they can make us look just as bad as any other trade


well i hope your clear now, we are on the same side, we may not always see eye to eye but hey:grouphug: ive kept reptiles for 32 years though i took a period without them for a while in between.
When i started out i made mistakes in their husbandry and when i look back they weren't exceptable but when your young ..............though they could have been avoided with a little more research, and you can never stop learning.
The one thing that has never changed is how easy they are to obtain without any questions being asked. I dont imo think reptiles should be sold in any old pet store which they still are in many places but in just very specialised reptile shops who wont sell to just anyone, or wc specimens


----------



## tomswel1

Graham said:


> Exactly, we really need to be our own fiercest critics and take a good honest look at all aspects of our hobby, because you can be sure if we don't then others will, as we've seen this week.
> 
> We basically have two choices, either put our own house in order, or sit back and pretend nothing is wrong and let someone else come along and put it in order for us, I suggest the former would be far preferable from our point of view!
> 
> We do need to get over this stupid attitude though, where as soon as anyone so much as mentions there might be a problem within the hobby they get labelled as one of the antis, it really doesn't help at all.


 
Thank you, we have more idea of whats wrong and right with the hobby than anyone else and it would be far better for those within to sort the problems than others from outside with less knowledge than they think to interfere.
As i've already said lets not sit back and pretend its the apa and lush that are the problem, there are problems within. Sort them out and there's no need for a war as they will have no argument or very stupid ones to fight with.


----------



## Sephiroth

Shelly already uploaded some photos of the York protest

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...gainst-lush-apa-chameleon-65.html#post6810922

here are a couple of others


----------



## Ant and Soph

tomswel1 said:


> well i hope your clear now, we are on the same side, we may not always see eye to eye but hey:grouphug: ive kept reptiles for 32 years though i took a period without them for a while in between.
> When i started out i made mistakes in their husbandry and when i look back they weren't exceptable but when your young ..............though they could have been avoided with a little more research, and you can never stop learning.
> The one thing that has never changed is how easy they are to obtain without any questions being asked. I dont imo think reptiles should be sold in any old pet store which they still are in many places but in just very specialised reptile shops who wont sell to just anyone, or wc specimens


Couldnt agree more, I had a loss when younger too because of not knowing enough, Shop sold me the wrong food however I should have known it was the wrong food. Definately think reptile shops should be more strict, The only trouble is even the ones who will not sell a reptile without selling the setup a few days before etc, can still be easily fooled. I would love to see a change in shop conditions most of all to be honest as I think they represent the hobby most of all, Anyone new to the hobby will start at the shop normally and a lot of the time that can be the worst place to start.

However its hard to know when to be behind a shop or against it, even the best shops will make a slip up here and there which anyone could easily perceive as a permanent situation. Have to say though I have noticed some of the chain companies are upping conditions a bit locally, However they still rarely carry details of the snake which I feel would be hugely beneficial to even the newest customers. In my dream shop you would get feeding dated, shedding dates, gender (some dont near me) And for backup have a basic caresheet for each type of rep to be given to any customers who are new to the hobby.

I think we are a long way from anything like that though, however as the customers we are the only ones who can really demand such a change


----------



## Graham

There's one near me, which I won't name, but they've only started doing reptiles in the past year or so and it's not their main business, and they only have a guy in there twice a week who knows anything about them and then just to check them over etc..., the rest of the time there's just the normal shop staff, and believe me their knowledge is about as basic as you could possibly get!


----------



## shell2909

Sephiroth said:


> Shelly already uploaded some photos of the York protest
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...gainst-lush-apa-chameleon-65.html#post6810922
> 
> here are a couple of others
> 
> image
> 
> image



Looking back at the photos, that pregnant woman and her horde of family members were there for aggggggges!!


----------



## Sephiroth

shell2909 said:


> Looking back at the photos, that pregnant woman and her horde of family members were there for aggggggges!!


not as bad as those kids who nicked our spot by the door :devil:


----------



## shell2909

Sephiroth said:


> not as bad as those kids who nicked our spot by the door :devil:



:devil::devil::devil: don't get me started :lol2: cheeky mares!!!


----------



## paulds

Just wanted to say well done, to anyone who went to the stores this weekend. :no1:

Things in Maidstone went really well, got 1000 out and had some very interesting conversations with quite a few new reptile converts.

Would seem a quite a few of the Lush stores have ended the promotion, although they are still selling the bath bombs, any APA literature or "I'm a Chameleon" branding has gone.

Great work guys, you should all be proud : victory:


----------



## Sephiroth

paulds said:


> Just wanted to say well done, to anyone who went to the stores this weekend. :no1:
> 
> Things in Maidstone went really well, got 1000 out and had some very interesting conversations with quite a few new reptile converts.
> 
> Would seem a quite a few of the Lush stores have ended the promotion, although they are still selling the bath bombs, any APA literature or "I'm a Chameleon" branding has gone.
> 
> Great work guys, you should all be proud : victory:


1000! Nice one :2thumb: 

Did the staff meet you?


----------



## paulds

Sephiroth said:


> 1000! Nice one :2thumb:
> 
> Did the staff meet you?


 A couple of them had a chat on their lunch, one of whom seemed genuinely interested in keeping reps. The manager there is not a fan of mine, from the previous photo incident, so I assume his staff were a bit reluctant to talk to me.

I did find it very interesting how their promo seemed to be taken down Friday night???? Wonder if they had heard about the protest :hmm:

What a result though, how did things go for you?


----------



## Sephiroth

paulds said:


> A couple of them had a chat on their lunch, one of whom seemed genuinely interested in keeping reps. The manager there is not a fan of mine, from the previous photo incident, so I assume his staff were a bit reluctant to talk to me.
> 
> I did find it very interesting how their promo seemed to be taken down Friday night???? Wonder if they had heard about the protest :hmm:
> 
> What a result though, how did things go for you?


Great  We only had about 250 flyers but had a good response from a lot of people and one of the staff came out for a chat as well. He was pro-ban but completely respected our protest and was very friendly. Even took our photo for us.

Now just trying to get the media interested...


----------



## paulds

Sephiroth said:


> Great  We only had about 250 flyers but had a good response from a lot of people and one of the staff came out for a chat as well. He was pro-ban but completely respected our protest and was very friendly. Even took our photo for us.
> 
> Now just trying to get the media interested...


Nice one :2thumb:

I was promised a visit from the local paper but the fact Lush had taken down their display and the weather was shit put the block on it. : victory:

Just waiting on my letter from the ASA and I will try and get something done with that


----------



## Graham

IMO Lush should stick to campaigns like this one...










...which they ran to highlight the issue of excessive packaging.


----------



## tomswel1

Graham said:


> There's one near me, which I won't name, but they've only started doing reptiles in the past year or so and it's not their main business, and they only have a guy in there twice a week who knows anything about them and then just to check them over etc..., the rest of the time there's just the normal shop staff, and believe me their knowledge is about as basic as you could possibly get!


Got one like that near me, he only sells reptiles and fish, i recently bought an amel hatchling from him which i really liked even though i've always said i'd never buy a reptile from him. she/he's in perfect health though and he said he gets them from a breeder which i think is probably true but he tried to tell me it needed smaller pinkies???? i always thought they were near enough the same size and has no problems taking any pinkie :bash: . ive heard him give totally crap advice to people, he keeps the tortoises in vivs and keeps a large python in too smaller viv amongst other holes i could find. He's not the worst as he does know something but this is what needs stamping out. People who sell reptiles and only know the basics at best.


----------



## David L

Graham said:


> IMO Lush should stick to campaigns like this one...
> 
> image
> 
> ...which they ran to highlight the issue of excessive packaging.


 
I wholeheartedly agree with this campaign in principle but what we have to take into account i...................................... 
:mf_dribble: 
Hmmmmmmmmmmm Buns!

I'm sorry, what was I saying?


----------



## Ant and Soph

tomswel1 said:


> Got one like that near me, he only sells reptiles and fish, i recently bought an amel hatchling from him which i really liked even though i've always said i'd never buy a reptile from him. she/he's in perfect health though and he said he gets them from a breeder which i think is probably true but he tried to tell me it needed smaller pinkies???? i always thought they were near enough the same size and has no problems taking any pinkie :bash: . ive heard him give totally crap advice to people, he keeps the tortoises in vivs and keeps a large python in too smaller viv amongst other holes i could find. He's not the worst as he does know something but this is what needs stamping out. People who sell reptiles and only know the basics at best.


Only real struggle on that front is the method, If we over publicise the fact we want a change, the people against will find other bad points we arent adressing at the time and use that against us still as that is just the sort of people we are up against, for instance if we started with the shops, then we would likely get bad press saying something along the lines of we only care for what we might buy and anything else is not our concern...

Id love change but its a hard topic to figure out where to begin, The shops would be a great start but how do we encourage a change without offending them? I have a local shop, nice people, However they could do better, They had rough greens before in a cricket box, When I asked about them they said they knew nothing about them and the person I spoke to said they were going to have to research them at home that night.... Now see this is where I find it gets difficult, The employee is making the effort however the manager should have been ready when they came in. How do you adress this sort of issue without causing offence? Let alone getting a nationwide change without causing offence


----------



## tomswel1

Ant and Soph said:


> Only real struggle on that front is the method, If we over publicise the fact we want a change, the people against will find other bad points we arent adressing at the time and use that against us still as that is just the sort of people we are up against, for instance if we started with the shops, then we would likely get bad press saying something along the lines of we only care for what we might buy and anything else is not our concern...
> 
> Id love change but its a hard topic to figure out where to begin, The shops would be a great start but how do we encourage a change without offending them? I have a local shop, nice people, However they could do better, They had rough greens before in a cricket box, When I asked about them they said they knew nothing about them and the person I spoke to said they were going to have to research them at home that night.... Now see this is where I find it gets difficult, The employee is making the effort however the manager should have been ready when they came in. How do you adress this sort of issue without causing offence? Let alone getting a nationwide change without causing offence


I know what your saying but if people get offended then so be it and the reptile keepers need to be seen to be doing something, the welfare of the animals has to come first . People should know what they are taking on before they do it not try to find out afterwards. I'm afraid i have little sympathy for their feelings,ignorance is no excuse.
The animals have no choice, we do.

Change is a must and not an option no matter who it offends and i wouldn't mind betting the rough greens in the shop were wc. There is no excuse for their behaviour infact its disgusting and what gives lush and the apa their ammunition and reason. Thats a prime example of whats wrong with the hobby-PET SHOPS that sell reptiles


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

tomswel1 said:


> The animals have no choice, we do.


Nicely put, I like it, and agree wholeheartedly : victory:


----------



## Ant and Soph

tomswel1 said:


> I know what your saying but if people get offended then so be it and the reptile keepers need to be seen to be doing something, the welfare of the animals has to come first . People should know what they are taking on before they do it not try to find out afterwards. I'm afraid i have little sympathy for their feelings,ignorance is no excuse.
> The animals have no choice, we do.
> 
> Change is a must and not an option no matter who it offends and i wouldn't mind betting the rough greens in the shop were wc. There is no excuse for their behaviour infact its what gives lush and the apa their ammunition and reason. Thats a prime example of whats wrong with the hobby-PET SHOPS that sell reptiles


They were indeed WC, hate to say as well they weren't actually there long either, and I dont think they got sold very easily... However I get your point, and when it comes to manager I think he needs a good slap, the axolotls have had horendous conditions in the past, and keeps them on gravel regardless the fact you can see they are bulging with stones in their stomache... But some of the employees on the other hand are pretty good, I wouldnt really want to paint them with the same brush, But if that is the only when they yeah I agree, so be it. Any ideas how we can really go about this though? We need to do it as a group to expect a large change, Id like to say up and go for it lets change things but we need a strategy


----------



## Sephiroth

I was just thinking about the ASA...

Since the source of this propaganda is from the APA, and the APA is a private company, then surely we can report the APA to the ASA as well as Lush...

Does anyone know where we can get some APA "literature" on reptile keeping?


----------



## shell2909

Sephiroth said:


> I was just thinking about the ASA...
> 
> Since the source of this propaganda is from the APA, and the APA is a private company, then surely we can report the APA to the ASA as well as Lush...
> 
> Does anyone know where we can get some APA "literature" on reptile keeping?


Have you had a look at their website mike? they have set their homepage as an anti reptile keeping page.


----------



## Sephiroth

the ASA can't use material from their website for some reason 

We would need either printed material or off site advertising...


----------



## wohic

Sephiroth said:


> the ASA can't use material from their website for some reason
> 
> We would need either printed material or off site advertising...


pm on way


----------



## Sephiroth

aha! The fliers from the Lush campaign _are_ the APA fliers!


----------



## shell2909

Sephiroth said:


> the ASA can't use material from their website for some reason
> 
> We would need either printed material or off site advertising...


Oh ... how come?


----------



## Sephiroth

god knows... this is from ASA's website :



> We deal with following types of marketing communications:
> Print and press ads
> Posters
> Television commercials
> Radio ads
> Internet ads (banners, pop-ups, sponsored search* but not company websites*)
> E-mail and text messages
> Direct mail
> Competitions, special offers
> Sales promotions
> Cinema commercials
> Teleshopping


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Maybe because you need to actually go on a company website to read things published there, so can choose not to, unlike ads on TV, banners/ pop-ups, posters... and such? A thought.


----------



## paulds

Sephiroth said:


> aha! The fliers from the Lush campaign _are_ the APA fliers!


I think the only trouble you will have here is, that if Lush have removed the APA fliers from their stores, you will need to be able to suggest a place where these are being distributed, as if they are sent on request directly from the APA, it will be pretty much the same as visiting their website?: victory:


----------



## Gaboon

I wouldn't protest against their campaign for the following reasons.

1) It will only draw more attention to their petty publicity stunt. 
2) They are jumping on the animal welfare/animal rights bandwagon, known for extreme views and poor knowledge of what they are protesting for. Let them trip themselves up.
3) The primary reason for this campaign is to promote their own 'ethical' company name. So, your not actually going to be entering a fair or even a real debate.
4) Their idiots, any supporters of them are also idiots.


----------



## Sephiroth

paulds said:


> I think the only trouble you will have here is, that if Lush have removed the APA fliers from their stores, you will need to be able to suggest a place where these are being distributed, as if they are sent on request directly from the APA, it will be pretty much the same as visiting their website?: victory:


that's true, though they *have* been distributing them through Lush, and we have evidence of that, and we can back up that many of the claims can't be substantiated. That should be enough for the ASA to prevent them using these particular flyers at the very least.

and then we do it again if we have to 

If we can force the APA to only use verifiable facts about the reptile trade, they won't have much left to campaign with other than "it doesn't add up... it's just wrong and it has to stop." :lol2:


----------



## David L

Sephiroth said:


> that's true, though they *have* been distributing them through Lush, and we have evidence of that, and we can back up that many of the claims can't be substantiated. That should be enough for the ASA to prevent them using these particular flyers at the very least.
> 
> and then we do it again if we have to
> 
> If we can force the APA to only use verifiable facts about the reptile trade, they won't have much left to campaign with other than "it doesn't add up... it's just wrong and it has to stop." :lol2:


I wish I could have spoken to him about that statement "It doesn't add up" 

Of course it doesn't add up you numpty, your figures that you used are total bowlax ! And now you have been found wanting, you are reduced to babbling like a schoolchild who has just been found out he's been cheating in his maths exam..... D'uh!


----------



## paulds

Sephiroth said:


> that's true, though they *have* been distributing them through Lush, and we have evidence of that, and we can back up that many of the claims can't be substantiated. That should be enough for the ASA to prevent them using these particular flyers at the very least.
> 
> and then we do it again if we have to
> 
> If we can force the APA to only use verifiable facts about the reptile trade, they won't have much left to campaign with other than "it doesn't add up... it's just wrong and it has to stop." :lol2:


Might be worth a shot. The person I have been dealing with at the ASA has buggered off on holiday, so will wait to see what is said on her return and go from there : victory:


----------



## tomswel1

Ant and Soph said:


> They were indeed WC, hate to say as well they weren't actually there long either, and I dont think they got sold very easily... However I get your point, and when it comes to manager I think he needs a good slap, the axolotls have had horendous conditions in the past, and keeps them on gravel regardless the fact you can see they are bulging with stones in their stomache... But some of the employees on the other hand are pretty good, I wouldnt really want to paint them with the same brush, But if that is the only when they yeah I agree, so be it. Any ideas how we can really go about this though? We need to do it as a group to expect a large change, Id like to say up and go for it lets change things but we need a strategy


I'll be honest i'm not up to date with what lush and the apa are saying about the reptile trade, all i can see is reptile keepers completely dismissing their opinions which may or not be fair but surely the above is one example of many which is giving them their ammo? It seems some have become so anti lush and apa they're not even looking at the problems within. Maybe they are, i dont know?. Thats not to say we shouldn't stand against them but when they're getting their facts wrong but when the reptile trade is far from perfect itself...................................I'm not on their side in any way or form but i do feel you have to be objective

What are they trying to acheive? stop reptile keeping full stop? - could never be done and totally stupid,there are too many cb ones and no ones ever going to remove reptiles from peoples homes because it becomes illegal, Reptile keeping is here to stay. i wouldn't remotely feel threatened by a silly campaign like that

stopping imports/exports of reptiles- That i agree with

Banning pet shops from selling reptiles- i wouldn't be against that either

There's enough good breeders of cb Reptiles to keep the hobby going and healthy


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

tomswel1 said:


> stopping imports/exports of reptiles- That i agree with
> 
> Banning pet shops from selling reptiles- i wouldn't be against that either
> 
> There's enough good breeders of cb Reptiles to keep the hobby going and healthy


See, the way I see it, the import/export side of things is a very complicated area... I couldn't honestly agree that it should be banned. It would mean importing CB animals would be banned too. And whilst I think WC *isn't *a good thing, some groups are following a system of conservation which does sell WC animals. They buy a large area of land (say rainforest) so they own it, it can't be clear cut (killing everything in that area) or touched by anyone but them. They then sell *some* animals from that area, and use the money to buy more land. Then repeat. So while they are taking WC animals, they are protecting far, far more. Lesser of two evils? 

And theres probably a few other examples too.


----------



## Meko

tomswel1 said:


> Banning pet shops from selling reptiles- i wouldn't be against that either
> 
> There's enough good breeders of cb Reptiles to keep the hobby going and healthy


 
but then how do people get to find out about reptiles as pets? 
Pet shops enable people to be introduced to reptiles, without them there'll be a lot of potential reptile owners who'll never own any reptiles


----------



## Graham

I think banning petshops from selling reptiles would not be a good move, there are some really good shops giving really good advice and being careful about who they sell to and what, unfortunately not all shops are like that, but to throw the good ones out with the bad would be crazy.

Tightening the regulations on the sale of reptiles would definitely be a good move, and some types of reptile in particular. We have a huge problem with turtles for instance, the vast majority of which are imported and sold cheaply, often by highly unscrupulous shops who have little or no idea of how to keep them. Just spend a day in Shelled and see how many people come in with tales of the rubbish advice the petshop gave them.

I'm sure it's the same story with some other species too, turts are just the ones I'm most familiar with.


----------



## Gaboon

There really should be more suitable welfare legislation to protect against the keeping and selling of reptiles (and other specialist species) in bad conditions. The current legislation is all too general as it is designed primarily for mammals and domestic animals. A transition from the "one size fits all" attitude is long overdue, I think (I hope) we can all see that. 

The importation of animals is a dark area and one that we all fuel as exotic animal keepers. To pretend its all rosy would be delusional. However, it is often secondary to the real big problems such as habitat loss, which is fuelled by human overpopulation and human poverty. There are of course many co-factors leading to any number of travesties of the humanoid virus. The bottom line here though is that the market is a necessity for many collectors and exporters. It provides at least some money, money for food (or just food) etc. The real battle is converting such people to a more sustainable program whilst protecting natural habitats from them, and other characters that would inevitably pop up. 

Take the crocodile farms of Oz, the USA and SA. These are hugely successful and they offer some employment. Reserves around the world bought up by charities (sometimes also partly paid for by governments after lobbying) also offer some employment. Eco-tourism is another great initiative that is being implemented across the globe. This offers perhaps the greatest opportunity for economic sustainability and growth, along with sustainability of the resources being 'exploited' and long term protection as a 'by product'. All these things work in many existing ongoing cases. Its a case of fine tuning and convincing people who don't have access to alternative modes of survival that their natural areas are worth more in the long term un-pillaged.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Gaboon said:


> There really should be more suitable welfare legislation to protect against the keeping and selling of reptiles (and other specialist species) in bad conditions. The current legislation is all too general as it is designed primarily for mammals and domestic animals. A transition from the "one size fits all" attitude is long overdue, I think (I hope) we can all see that.
> 
> The importation of animals is a dark area and one that we all fuel as exotic animal keepers. To pretend its all rosy would be delusional. However, it is often secondary to the real big problems such as habitat loss, which is fuelled by human overpopulation and human poverty. There are of course many co-factors leading to any number of travesties of the humanoid virus. The bottom line here though is that the market is a necessity for many collectors and exporters. It provides at least some money, money for food (or just food) etc. The real battle is converting such people to a more sustainable program whilst protecting natural habitats from them, and other characters that would inevitably pop up.
> 
> Take the crocodile farms of Oz, the USA and SA. These are hugely successful and they offer some employment. Reserves around the world bought up by charities (sometimes also partly paid for by governments after lobbying) also offer some employment. Eco-tourism is another great initiative that is being implemented across the globe. This offers perhaps the greatest opportunity for economic sustainability and growth, along with sustainability of the resources being 'exploited' and long term protection as a 'by product'. All these things work in many existing ongoing cases. Its a case of fine tuning and convincing people who don't have access to alternative modes of survival that their natural areas are worth more in the long term un-pillaged.


Well said :notworthy: +1 to that!


----------



## tomswel1

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> See, the way I see it, the import/export side of things is a very complicated area... I couldn't honestly agree that it should be banned. It would mean importing CB animals would be banned too. And whilst I think WC *isn't *a good thing, some groups are following a system of conservation which does sell WC animals. They buy a large area of land (say rainforest) so they own it, it can't be clear cut (killing everything in that area) or touched by anyone but them. They then sell *some* animals from that area, and use the money to buy more land. Then repeat. So while they are taking WC animals, they are protecting far, far more. Lesser of two evils?
> 
> And theres probably a few other examples too.


Maybe i should have explanined a bit better, if it means in/exporting for the benefit of animals then yes but not for the pet trade


----------



## tomswel1

Meko said:


> but then how do people get to find out about reptiles as pets?
> Pet shops enable people to be introduced to reptiles, without them there'll be a lot of potential reptile owners who'll never own any reptiles


Yes and so often reptiles are misunderstood and die an early death because of the wrong husbandry through being sold in petshops. There are far better ways to introduce people to reptiles than through petshops for any old ignorant tom dick or harry to buy one.
Thats been the problem and i really dont think it matters if theres any more reptile owners and i doubt reptiles care either. Not saying there shouldn't be but there needs to be more restrictions on who sells and buys them.

The welfare of the reptiles should come before the selfishness of peoples demand for them


----------



## tomswel1

Graham said:


> I think banning petshops from selling reptiles would not be a good move, there are some really good shops giving really good advice and being careful about who they sell to and what, unfortunately not all shops are like that, but to throw the good ones out with the bad would be crazy.
> 
> Tightening the regulations on the sale of reptiles would definitely be a good move, and some types of reptile in particular. We have a huge problem with turtles for instance, the vast majority of which are imported and sold cheaply, often by highly unscrupulous shops who have little or no idea of how to keep them. Just spend a day in Shelled and see how many people come in with tales of the rubbish advice the petshop gave them.
> 
> I'm sure it's the same story with some other species too, turts are just the ones I'm most familiar with.


yes i agree i meant normal petshops like have been mentioned, but if we had specialist reptile shops strictly controlled with only very knowledgeable people running and working in them with strict controls and good judgement on who buys them then yes i think that would be a way forward. As with the turtles i do think some species of reptiles would be better off being banned as pets completely. Tortoises and turtles have had a horrid time in captivity and their needs are rarely met

A few years ago now i used to use the wyvale garden centre in croydon,surrey they had a reptile dept which i beleive was run by a vet, they were very knowledgeable and seemed very expert in their reptiles. I went there one day to find it had closed down, now i heard a few bad things about it after that. I dont know whats true if anyone can enlighten me??


----------



## repnanny

Its very difficult to regulate pet shops as there are so many people who are "experts" self professed or otherwise, the difficulty is sorting out which ones do know what they are talking about. If you are new to the hobby, and the petshop gives you advice on care wouldnt you just take the advice you were given as you wouldnt know any different. There ought to be a method of ensuring that anyone who wants one learns to care for it first but i dont know how that could be enforced as there seem to be a number of people with the mindset of "Oh I like that lets get one" regardless of whether they can fulfill the animals needs or not.


----------



## Ssthisto

tomswel1 said:


> A few years ago now i used to use the wyvale garden centre in croydon,surrey they had a reptile dept which i beleive was run by a vet, they were very knowledgeable and seemed very expert in their reptiles. I went there one day to find it had closed down, now i heard a few bad things about it after that. I dont know whats true if anyone can enlighten me??


And that (the Wyevale garden centre reptile department closures) is the *direct* result of actions by animal rights groups like the APA. That's the threat they pose to the hobby - it's insidious and takes little nibbles at a time. 

Hence why protesting the Lush/APA thing is important. We'd like to THINK they can't pass a law against reptile keeping, but unless we defend our ability to do so and debunk the myths that are being passed around as fact, it could happen in exactly the same way as the Dangerous Dogs Act or the regulations regarding European Protected Species.... and the latter directly affected reptile keepers like myself, despite the impossibility of policing it or even issuing "grandfather" licences to keep the species listed on the EPS list if you already owned them when the updated legislation was passed.


----------



## Chris Newman

The importation of animals, wild caught or captive bred is strictly regulated. Species that are vulnerable to over collection are regulated by CITES, highly endanger species are scheduled on Annex A and trade in wild caught animals is prohibited. Trade in species vulnerable to over exploration are regulated by a quota system on Annex B. Species which raise any concerns, and these need not even be a CITES listed species can be placed on Annex D and monitored. Serious conservation bodies, such as WWF support sustainable utilisation of wild animals as a conservation tool. Exploitation of genetic resources by indigenous people is critical important. Clearly some people are opposed to trade in wild animals, this can either be for ethical reasons, or reasons of self interest, i.e. banning trade in wild animals would enhance the value of their stock. International movement of animals, wild caught or captive bred is extremely well regulated by IATA. Any shipment which fails to meet IATA standards is likely to be seized by Customs, all imports are subject to inspection at Boarder Inspection Posts – 100% of all shipments. Mortality in transport is extremely low, less than 0.5%. Therefore international trade is extremely well regulated.

In the UK any pet shops that sell live reptiles, or indeed any animal is regulated by licensing under the Pet Animas Act. This sets down minimum standards for animals being kept and traded. As this is regulated there is no excuse for poor shops, substandard shops equates to substandard inspection by a Local Authority. Currently the Model Standard Guidelines are being redrafted and specific attention is being given to standards for reptiles, this should be in place by the end of the year.

The keeping of any vertebrate animal in captivity by man is regulated by the Animal Welfare Act, this new legislation places a ‘duty of care’ upon keepers, and this applies to reptiles every bit as much as it does dogs. It is important that legislation does not selectively cater for or against and single species, reptiles deserve just as much protection as mammals, and this is precisely what the new legislation delivers. 

The whole Lush/APA campaign is entirely dishonest; it has nothing to do with Animal Welfare and everything to do with Animal Rights.


----------



## Chris Newman

Ssthisto said:


> And that (the Wyevale garden centre reptile department closures) is the *direct* result of actions by animal rights groups like the APA. That's the threat they pose to the hobby - it's insidious and takes little nibbles at a time.
> 
> Hence why protesting the Lush/APA thing is important. We'd like to THINK they can't pass a law against reptile keeping, but unless we defend our ability to do so and debunk the myths that are being passed around as fact, it could happen in exactly the same way as the Dangerous Dogs Act or the regulations regarding European Protected Species.... and the latter directly affected reptile keepers like myself, despite the impossibility of policing it or even issuing "grandfather" licences to keep the species listed on the EPS list if you already owned them when the updated legislation was passed.


Very well said….


----------



## andy007

repnanny said:


> Its very difficult to regulate pet shops as there are so many people who are "experts" self professed or otherwise, the difficulty is sorting out which ones do know what they are talking about. If you are new to the hobby, and the petshop gives you advice on care wouldnt you just take the advice you were given as you wouldnt know any different. There ought to be a method of ensuring that anyone who wants one learns to care for it first but i dont know how that could be enforced as there seem to be a number of people with the mindset of "Oh I like that lets get one" regardless of whether they can fulfill the animals needs or not.


Just thought I'd point out that there are probably more private sellers of reptiles than there are shops, and judging by some of the adverts listed on places like Preloved there are some pretty awful ones. i.e. beardies being sold at under 2 weeks old etc etc. Do you think sellers like that are going to be vetting their customers? I think not, its all about the cash as quick as possible for some. What makes this worse, is that this trade is totally unregulated whereas shops are answerable to a government body and open to inspection at any time.
When I first started my job as head of a reptile department I had been keeping reps for a few years, but this doesn't make me an expert or anything. What I tried to do, was look at all the bad things people say about shops and make sure I didn't make those mistakes. I've lost a few sales because of the questions I have put to customers and even point blank refused to sell to some people (normally Torts, Turts and larger Snakes). Problem is, they probably then went elsewhere to buy considering within a 30 minute drive there are now 8 other reptile outlets. 
I personally welcome the idea of the "standard" nationwide care guides which are in the pipeline, but what about the private sellers? How do we regulate the unregulated? I know there are very good private sellers out there, but there are many bad ones churning out clutch after clutch purely for fast cash.


----------



## repnanny

Totally agree, some of our reps and assorted creatures have come from people that had no idea and had brought them knowing nothing about them and just gave them away when they got bored and wanted something new to play with. Any one got any ideas on a way to regulate them as im stumped.


----------



## tomswel1

andy007 said:


> Just thought I'd point out that there are probably more private sellers of reptiles than there are shops, and judging by some of the adverts listed on places like Preloved there are some pretty awful ones. i.e. beardies being sold at under 2 weeks old etc etc. Do you think sellers like that are going to be vetting their customers? I think not, its all about the cash as quick as possible for some. What makes this worse, is that this trade is totally unregulated whereas shops are answerable to a government body and open to inspection at any time.
> When I first started my job as head of a reptile department I had been keeping reps for a few years, but this doesn't make me an expert or anything. What I tried to do, was look at all the bad things people say about shops and make sure I didn't make those mistakes. I've lost a few sales because of the questions I have put to customers and even point blank refused to sell to some people (normally Torts, Turts and larger Snakes). Problem is, they probably then went elsewhere to buy considering within a 30 minute drive there are now 8 other reptile outlets.
> I personally welcome the idea of the "standard" nationwide care guides which are in the pipeline, but what about the private sellers? How do we regulate the unregulated? I know there are very good private sellers out there, but there are many bad ones churning out clutch after clutch purely for fast cash.


Thats very true, the problem is there are no easy answers but its all very well having licenses and regulation etc but if nothings ever enforced properly then little will change. 

I've mentioned about classifieds before, you only have to look on here for that let alone all the others. They are just online petshops.


----------



## tomswel1

Ssthisto said:


> And that (the Wyevale garden centre reptile department closures) is the *direct* result of actions by animal rights groups like the APA. That's the threat they pose to the hobby - it's insidious and takes little nibbles at a time.
> 
> Hence why protesting the Lush/APA thing is important. We'd like to THINK they can't pass a law against reptile keeping, but unless we defend our ability to do so and debunk the myths that are being passed around as fact, it could happen in exactly the same way as the Dangerous Dogs Act or the regulations regarding European Protected Species.... and the latter directly affected reptile keepers like myself, despite the impossibility of policing it or even issuing "grandfather" licences to keep the species listed on the EPS list if you already owned them when the updated legislation was passed.


interesting but how did they get it closed? surely they must have had some reason?

I dont see how they can possibly be a threat to the hobby though ? if you already own reptiles as we all do nobodys going to take them away anymore than when the replica gun legislation came in, those who already own them didn't have to hand them in, even the government realise that would be impossible it just stops anymore being produced which couldn't be prevented with cb reptiles.Personally after another hatchling corn i wont want anymore anyway and i certainly wouldn't feel the hobby was threatened even if they stopped the sales of reptiles.
It might stop a lot of idiots buying them so would it be such a bad thing?


----------



## tomswel1

Chris Newman said:


> The importation of animals, wild caught or captive bred is strictly regulated. Species that are vulnerable to over collection are regulated by CITES, highly endanger species are scheduled on Annex A and trade in wild caught animals is prohibited. Trade in species vulnerable to over exploration are regulated by a quota system on Annex B. Species which raise any concerns, and these need not even be a CITES listed species can be placed on Annex D and monitored. Serious conservation bodies, such as WWF support sustainable utilisation of wild animals as a conservation tool. Exploitation of genetic resources by indigenous people is critical important. Clearly some people are opposed to trade in wild animals, this can either be for ethical reasons, or reasons of self interest, i.e. banning trade in wild animals would enhance the value of their stock. International movement of animals, wild caught or captive bred is extremely well regulated by IATA. Any shipment which fails to meet IATA standards is likely to be seized by Customs, all imports are subject to inspection at Boarder Inspection Posts – 100% of all shipments. Mortality in transport is extremely low, less than 0.5%. Therefore international trade is extremely well regulated.
> 
> In the UK any pet shops that sell live reptiles, or indeed any animal is regulated by licensing under the Pet Animas Act. This sets down minimum standards for animals being kept and traded. As this is regulated there is no excuse for poor shops, substandard shops equates to substandard inspection by a Local Authority. Currently the Model Standard Guidelines are being redrafted and specific attention is being given to standards for reptiles, this should be in place by the end of the year.
> 
> The keeping of any vertebrate animal in captivity by man is regulated by the Animal Welfare Act, this new legislation places a ‘duty of care’ upon keepers, and this applies to reptiles every bit as much as it does dogs. It is important that legislation does not selectively cater for or against and single species, reptiles deserve just as much protection as mammals, and this is precisely what the new legislation delivers.
> 
> The whole Lush/APA campaign is entirely dishonest; it has nothing to do with Animal Welfare and everything to do with Animal Rights.


Animal welfare or Animal rights whats the big difference? what are they saying that everyone is so afraid of ? wc reptiles ARE still being sold and imo that wrong, if its that well regulated why are many still getting into small petshops like the rough green snakes mentioned in an earlier post or does it depend on specie as to to its regulation?, As ant & soph said they weren't in the shop long and i think we know why, its this kind of thing that needs to be stopped. Thats one example how many others are there?
If more legislation is being put in place then all well and good providing its effective and stops the above


----------



## Chris Newman

tomswel1 said:


> Animal welfare or Animal rights whats the big difference? what are they saying that everyone is so afraid of ? wc reptiles ARE still being sold and imo that wrong, if its that well regulated why are many still getting into small petshops like the rough green snakes mentioned in an earlier post, As ant & soph said they weren't in the shop long and i think we know why, its this kind of thing that needs to be stopped. Thats one example how many others are there?


The difference is about the same as the difference between day and night, black or white, Animal Rights has nothing to do with welfare what so ever. As for wild caught reptiles being imported and sold, the facts is sustainable utilisation is a cornerstone of conservation and critically important to the long term survival of many species and habitat. People should have a choose, if they have moral objections to wild caught animals, then buy captive bred. As for rough green snakes, why should they not be imported? They do extremely well in captivity, I have kept them in the passed for many years.


----------



## tomswel1

Chris Newman said:


> The difference is about the same as the difference between day and night, black or white, Animal Rights has nothing to do with welfare what so ever. As for wild caught reptiles being imported and sold, the facts is sustainable utilisation is a cornerstone of conservation and critically important to the long term survival of many species and habitat. People should have a choose, if they have moral objections to wild caught animals, then buy captive bred. As for rough green snakes, why should they not be imported? They do extremely well in captivity, I have kept them in the passed for many years.


You make these statements but dont seem to explain them? day & night black and white?
So if i read it right its ok to take rough green snakes out of their natural enviroment so you can put them in a small cage because they do ok in captivity? Infact taking any wild animal is ok because it will do well in captivity. 
I dont think lush/APA need look any further for their ammo, its that selfish greedy attitude thats given so many reptiles an early death over the years. How many rough greens actually survive the journey half way round the world just so a few idiots can watch them in a two foot viv?
The ones in the earlier post didn't last long but i suppose thats a small price to pay for human greed.:bash:
How many people buy a wild caught animal from a petshop for conservation purposes?

DO THEY WANT TO BE IMPORTED? DO THEY HAVE A CHOICE? WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE REMOVED PUT IN A BOX AND DUMPED SOMEWHERE? DAYS LATER, we'll try it shall we and call it conservation


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

You sure do chat like a APA rep... 




tomswel1 said:


> You make these statements but dont seem to explain them?
> So if i read it right its ok to take rough green snakes out of their natural enviroment so you can put them in a small cage because they do ok in captivity? Infact taking any wild animal is ok because it will do well in captivity.
> I dont think lush/APA need look any further for their ammo, its that selfish greedy attitude thats given so many reptiles an early death over the years. How many rough greens actually survive the journey half way round the world just so a few idiots can watch them in a two foot viv?
> The ones in the earlier post didn't last long but i suppose thats a small price to pay for human greed.:bash:
> How many people buy a wild caught animal from a petshop for conservation purposes?
> 
> DO THEY WANT TO BE IMPORTED? DO THEY HAVE A CHOICE? WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE REMOVED PUT IN A BOX AND DUMPED SOMEWHERE? DAYS LATER


----------



## tomswel1

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> You sure do chat like a APA rep...


Cant you be objective or disagree without being an APA rep on this forum?:cussing: Its what i've just read that gives the APA its cause that everyones so against HELLO???


----------



## andy007

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> You sure do chat like a APA rep...


That thought had crossed my mind too:whistling2:


----------



## Roseanna

tomswel1 said:


> You make these statements but dont seem to explain them? day & night black and white?
> So if i read it right its ok to take rough green snakes out of their natural enviroment so you can put them in a small cage because they do ok in captivity? Infact taking any wild animal is ok because it will do well in captivity.
> I dont think lush/APA need look any further for their ammo, its that selfish greedy attitude thats given so many reptiles an early death over the years. How many rough greens actually survive the journey half way round the world just so a few idiots can watch them in a two foot viv?
> The ones in the earlier post didn't last long but i suppose thats a small price to pay for human greed.:bash:
> How many people buy a wild caught animal from a petshop for conservation purposes?
> 
> DO THEY WANT TO BE IMPORTED? DO THEY HAVE A CHOICE? WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE REMOVED PUT IN A BOX AND DUMPED SOMEWHERE? DAYS LATER


 Things will die though! everything dies! Doesn't mean we've made it die.
You moan about people keeping them in a 'small cage' but at the end of the day, most snakes don't like open spaces! they like to feel cramped in, they like to be hidden and feel secure. a viv won't upset them or anything :lol2:.

I think APA and people who moan about reptile keepers need to actualy open there eyes and start worrying about more worrying issues, i think there are more problems in the dog breeding and owning area rather than the reptile industry for example! ok yes we do have a few issue's in reptile keeping but they aren't as bad as some other animal problems out there! 

I keep reptiles, they are healthy and so far haven't died LOL. just because some people neglect reps doesn't mean we all do!


----------



## andy007

tomswel1 said:


> Cant you be objective or disagree without being an APA rep on this forum?:cussing:


Yes, but you are out to attack one of the people doing his uppermost to keep our hobby alive.


----------



## Podarcis

*APA rep*

He sure does. I will quote(ish) Gerald Durrell here "People mistake mother nature for a benevolent old dame rather than the rapacious bitch she is".


----------



## Podarcis

Hear hear! This APA/ LUSH stuff is absolute nonsense. Consider the Axolotl . . .


----------



## Podarcis

How many people buy a wild caught animal from a petshop for conservation purposes? FYI Tom; Me


----------



## tomswel1

andy007 said:


> Yes, but you are out to attack one of the people doing his uppermost to keep our hobby alive.


OH FOR :censor: SAKE i'm not attacking anyone, i'm merely making some valid points which people dont seem able to answer and pointing out issues which i personally dont agree with because they give this hobby a bad name, why do you all pretend there's nothing wrong?
Then you wonder why the hobbies under attack from outside:bash:


----------



## tomswel1

Podarcis said:


> How many people buy a wild caught animal from a petshop for conservation purposes? FYI Tom; Me


well good for you please explain


----------



## tomswel1

Roseanna said:


> Things will die though! everything dies! Doesn't mean we've made it die.
> You moan about people keeping them in a 'small cage' but at the end of the day, most snakes don't like open spaces! they like to feel cramped in, they like to be hidden and feel secure. a viv won't upset them or anything :lol2:.
> 
> I think APA and people who moan about reptile keepers need to actualy open there eyes and start worrying about more worrying issues, i think there are more problems in the dog breeding and owning area rather than the reptile industry for example! ok yes we do have a few issue's in reptile keeping but they aren't as bad as some other animal problems out there!
> 
> I keep reptiles, they are healthy and so far haven't died LOL. just because some people neglect reps doesn't mean we all do!


"Things will die though" "most snakes don't like open spaces! OH WHAT A GREAT STATEMENTS :mf_dribble: COME ON PEOPLE THIS REALLY DOES THE CAUSE A POWER OF GOOD:crazy:


----------



## Natrix

tomswel1 said:


> You make these statements but dont seem to explain them? day & night black and white?
> So if i read it right its ok to take rough green snakes out of their natural enviroment so you can put them in a small cage because they do ok in captivity? Infact taking any wild animal is ok because it will do well in captivity.
> I dont think lush/APA need look any further for their ammo, its that selfish greedy attitude thats given so many reptiles an early death over the years. How many rough greens actually survive the journey half way round the world just so a few idiots can watch them in a two foot viv?
> The ones in the earlier post didn't last long but i suppose thats a small price to pay for human greed.:bash:
> How many people buy a wild caught animal from a petshop for conservation purposes?
> 
> DO THEY WANT TO BE IMPORTED? DO THEY HAVE A CHOICE? WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE REMOVED PUT IN A BOX AND DUMPED SOMEWHERE? DAYS LATER, we'll try it shall we and call it conservation


You seem very good at quoting the fabricated propaganda of the animal rights groups but seem to have little knowledge of all the carefully researched facts accepted by Government and Customs and Excise or the important uses that sustainable harvest is put to around the globe by organisations such as the WWF.

You seem happy to assume just like many anti’s that most of your fellow reptile keepers are incapable of keeping wild caught animals and seem happy to differentiate between captive bred and wild caught as if there was some special captive gene present in captive bred animals. 

A quick look at your profile tells me you keep Indian star tortoises,2 grey tree frogs,4 Asian long tails, chameleons, rabbits and several dogs. Can you explain to me how you think all of these came to be in captivity and which ones don’t originate from wild caught ancestors at some point in their lineage? 
I’m also guessing (but happy to be wrong) that your 2 grey tree frogs, and 4 Asian long tails spent a bit of time in the wild before arriving with you. Why is it ok for you to have them but not for some one else to keep a rough green snake?

I’m all for controls on quantities and being ready to help conserve species when necessary but I have no problem when harvesting is done in a sustainable manner. I do however find it very hard to accept the views of individuals that think it would be fine to stop me and over a million other keepers from keeping our animals just to keep a bunch of lying, tree hugging, spaced out hippies happy. 

Natrix


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

tomswel1 said:


> OH FOR :censor: SAKE i'm not attacking anyone, i'm merely making some valid points which people dont seem able to answer and pointing out issues which i personally dont agree with because they give this hobby a bad name, why do you all pretend there's nothing wrong?
> Then you wonder why the hobbies under attack from outside:bash:


Tbh chris has given you some fair and reasonable answers. 
Your valid points seem to consist of "WC is bad because I think it is and it's mean to the animals" 
I don't like it, but it's a fact of life, of the hobby, and of the way things are, and I can see that has it's place in the hobby. If you can't, your... well, blind. 



tomswel1 said:


> well good for you please explain


Whats there to explain? 
Animal X was/is rare/uncommon/endangered, one became avaliable to them, they brought it with breeding in mind? No?


----------



## Natrix

tomswel1 said:


> OH FOR :censor: SAKE i'm not attacking anyone, i'm merely making some valid points which people dont seem able to answer and pointing out issues which i personally dont agree with because they give this hobby a bad name, why do you all pretend there's nothing wrong?
> Then you wonder why the hobbies under attack from outside:bash:


As far as I can see all the points have been answered either here or on other threads. It is the AR potrayal of the hobby which gives the hobby a bad name. It also makes the AR brigade several million pounds a year but I can't think why they feel the need to keep telling their porkies.

Natrix


----------



## Sephiroth

tomswel1 said:


> Animal welfare or Animal rights whats the big difference? *what are they saying* that everyone is so afraid of ? wc reptiles ARE still being sold and imo that wrong, if its that well regulated why are many still getting into small petshops like the rough green snakes mentioned in an earlier post or does it depend on specie as to to its regulation?, As ant & soph said they weren't in the shop long and i think we know why, its this kind of thing that needs to be stopped. Thats one example how many others are there?
> If more legislation is being put in place then all well and good providing its effective and stops the above


Have you read the article yet? I think we could all understand a campaign to stop the trade of wild caught animals, but that isn't what this is all about.


----------



## tomswel1

natrix said:


> you seem very good at quoting the fabricated propaganda of the animal rights groups but seem to have little knowledge of all the carefully researched facts accepted by government and customs and excise or the important uses that sustainable harvest is put to around the globe by organisations such as the wwf.
> 
> You seem happy to assume just like many anti’s that most of your fellow reptile keepers are incapable of keeping wild caught animals and seem happy to differentiate between captive bred and wild caught as if there was some special captive gene present in captive bred animals.
> 
> A quick look at your profile tells me you keep indian star tortoises,2 grey tree frogs,4 asian long tails, chameleons, rabbits and several dogs. Can you explain to me how you think all of these came to be in captivity and which ones don’t originate from wild caught ancestors at some point in their lineage?
> I’m also guessing (but happy to be wrong) that your 2 grey tree frogs, and 4 asian long tails spent a bit of time in the wild before arriving with you. Why is it ok for you to have them but not for some one else to keep a rough green snake?
> 
> I’m all for controls on quantities and being ready to help conserve species when necessary but i have no problem when harvesting is done in a sustainable manner. I do however find it very hard to accept the views of individuals that think it would be fine to stop me and over a million other keepers from keeping our animals just to keep a bunch of lying, tree hugging, spaced out hippies happy.
> 
> Natrix


oh dear here we go again as usual totally misinterpreted, firstly the long tails were cb as are all my animals and yes they all come from wc somewhere along the line, there's little anyone can do about that is there? I said some posts back but i'll repeat it for the hard of hearing, i'm not against animals being shipped for real conservation purposes or anything thats going to benefit them. 
What i dont agree with is anymore reptiles or anything else for that matter being shipped round the world just to end up in a pet shop down some high st which inevitably will end up dead or on preloved..........


----------



## Pete Q

tomswel1 said:


> You make these statements but dont seem to explain them? day & night black and white?
> So if i read it right its ok to take rough green snakes out of their natural enviroment so you can put them in a small cage because they do ok in captivity? Infact taking any wild animal is ok because it will do well in captivity.
> I dont think lush/APA need look any further for their ammo, its that selfish greedy attitude thats given so many reptiles an early death over the years. How many rough greens actually survive the journey half way round the world just so a few idiots can watch them in a two foot viv?
> The ones in the earlier post didn't last long but i suppose thats a small price to pay for human greed.:bash:
> How many people buy a wild caught animal from a petshop for conservation purposes?
> 
> DO THEY WANT TO BE IMPORTED? DO THEY HAVE A CHOICE? WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE REMOVED PUT IN A BOX AND DUMPED SOMEWHERE? DAYS LATER, we'll try it shall we and call it conservation


*Animal Welfare vs. Animal Rights*
_*What's the difference?*_ 
For the last 50 years or more, the debate has raged over the role of animals in human society, with particular reference to the ways in which we use them for our benefit. Fueling the debate still further has been the emergence, particularly in the last three decades, of a small but vociferous group of adherents to the philosophy of animal rights, which views humans and animals as essentially equal and condemns any and all use of animals for human benefit.
Animal rights advocates do not distinguish between human beings and animals. In the words of Ingrid Newkirk, founder of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA), "There is no rational basis for saying that a human being has special rights. A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. They're all mammals." Michael Fox of the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) has said, "The life of an ant and the life of my child should be accorded equal respect."
Animal rights advocates reject all animal use, no matter how humane. Some have even suggested that animal welfare reforms impede progress toward animal rights because they improve the conditions under which "animal exploitation" occurs, making it more difficult to stimulate public opposition to animal use.
When the interests of humans and animals come into conflict, animal rights advocates put the animals first. PeTA's Newkirk has said, "Even if animal research produced a cure for AIDS, we'd be against it."
The animal welfare philosophy is fundamentally different from the animal rights philosophy, since it endorses the responsible use of animals to satisfy certain human needs. These range from companionship and sport, to uses which involve the taking of life, such as for food, clothing and medical research. Animal welfare means ensuring that all animals used by humans have their basic needs fulfilled in terms of food, shelter and health, and that they experience no unnecessary suffering in providing for human needs.


----------



## tomswel1

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Tbh chris has given you some fair and reasonable answers.
> Your valid points seem to consist of "WC is bad because I think it is and it's mean to the animals"
> I don't like it, but it's a fact of life, of the hobby, and of the way things are, and I can see that has it's place in the hobby. If you can't, your... well, blind.
> 
> 
> 
> Whats there to explain?
> Animal X was/is rare/uncommon/endangered, one became avaliable to them, they brought it with breeding in mind? No?


 IT IS IF THEY END UP IN SOME SILLY PET SHOP, DEAD, OR ON PRELOVED AS MANY DO. THATS THE HOBBY, FACT OF LIFE IS IT? YOU DONT CARE ABOUT REPTILES, JUST YOUR HOBBY

Breeding for what? to restock the wild population or sell for profit , No need to answer i know the answer


----------



## tomswel1

Pete Q said:


> *Animal Welfare vs. Animal Rights*
> _*What's the difference?*_
> For the last 50 years or more, the debate has raged over the role of animals in human society, with particular reference to the ways in which we use them for our benefit. Fueling the debate still further has been the emergence, particularly in the last three decades, of a small but vociferous group of adherents to the philosophy of animal rights, which views humans and animals as essentially equal and condemns any and all use of animals for human benefit.
> Animal rights advocates do not distinguish between human beings and animals. In the words of Ingrid Newkirk, founder of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA), "There is no rational basis for saying that a human being has special rights. A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. They're all mammals." Michael Fox of the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) has said, "The life of an ant and the life of my child should be accorded equal respect."
> Animal rights advocates reject all animal use, no matter how humane. Some have even suggested that animal welfare reforms impede progress toward animal rights because they improve the conditions under which "animal exploitation" occurs, making it more difficult to stimulate public opposition to animal use.
> When the interests of humans and animals come into conflict, animal rights advocates put the animals first. PeTA's Newkirk has said, "Even if animal research produced a cure for AIDS, we'd be against it."
> The animal welfare philosophy is fundamentally different from the animal rights philosophy, since it endorses the responsible use of animals to satisfy certain human needs. These range from companionship and sport, to uses which involve the taking of life, such as for food, clothing and medical research. Animal welfare means ensuring that all animals used by humans have their basic needs fulfilled in terms of food, shelter and health, and that they experience no unnecessary suffering in providing for human needs.


needed to look it up then, nicely copy and pasted already read that


----------



## Ssthisto

tomswel1 said:


> interesting but how did they get it closed? surely they must have had some reason?


Animal rights groups exerted pressure - using the same LIES and misrepresented truths that they were using on the recent APA flyer - on Wyevale. And because Wyevale is at heart a garden supply shop, stopping the hassle by getting rid of the pet section... well, it didn't hurt their bottom line as much as "Boycott Wyevale until they stop selling pets" does!



> I dont see how they can possibly be a threat to the hobby though ? if you already own reptiles as we all do nobodys going to take them away


You don't think so?

Before they realised the scope of the problem, Natural England/DEFRA were indeed talking about confiscating unlicenced EPS animals if the owners couldn't prove they were acquired before 1994/bred in captivity/obtained from a source outside the EU ... and very little was being accepted as proof, never mind a good enough REASON to be given the licence to keep an unproven-origin animal ("as a pet" wasn't good enough).



> i certainly wouldn't feel the hobby was threatened even if they stopped the sales of reptiles.
> It might stop a lot of idiots buying them so would it be such a bad thing?


Ok, say they make it illegal tomorrow to sell reptiles - you're allowed to sell what you've got NOW, for a grace period of, say, six months, including specialist reptile shops/etc.

Six months after the legislation passes, the only thing you can buy in specialist reptile shops is food and equipment, and private breeders will have sold off everything that isn't a personal pet.

Twelve months after the legislation passes, private breeders will have stopped the captive breeding of reptiles - of any description - because they can't afford to keep every single baby, they can't sell the babies to buyers, they can't stomach killing the ones that are "surplus" in order to keep what they want from the clutch and they can't even sell or trade animals to other breeders to keep bloodlines fresh. Of course, the "backyard breeders" who think that Mr. Slithers loves Ms. Slithers will still keep those snakes together and produce babies.... but if they can't legally sell them, what happens to them? 

The reptile shops will gradually die out - if you don't have new people coming into the hobby (because you aren't getting new reptile owners, because they can't BUY the reptiles anywhere) then once you've sold an enclosure for every adult animal out there you're pretty much only working with food for those animals; the profit margin might not be big enough on JUST food to maintain a full shop.... 

And in the long term.... the hobby dies in the UK. 



tomswel1 said:


> Animal welfare or Animal rights whats the big difference?


Animal welfare is about the health, welfare and well-being of INDIVIDUAL animals - people who are for animal welfare want to improve the lot of individual animals, whether that's in captivity, securing wild habitat.... an animal welfarist might lobby to have mink farms in the UK shut down on humane grounds or insist upon more humane treatment prior to and at the point of death. 

Animal rights is about supporting an ideal ("Humans have no right to involve themselves in any way with animals") even at the EXPENSE of individual animals' welfare. Animal rights supporters set thousands of mink loose to destroy wildlife and be run over by cars in the name of their cause - resulting in massive cruelty to the very animals they claim to be defending the best interests of.

Do you see the difference?


----------



## tomswel1

Ssthisto said:


> Animal rights groups exerted pressure - using the same LIES and misrepresented truths that they were using on the recent APA flyer - on Wyevale. And because Wyevale is at heart a garden supply shop, stopping the hassle by getting rid of the pet section... well, it didn't hurt their bottom line as much as "Boycott Wyevale until they stop selling pets" does!
> 
> 
> You don't think so?
> 
> Before they realised the scope of the problem, Natural England/DEFRA were indeed talking about confiscating unlicenced EPS animals if the owners couldn't prove they were acquired before 1994/bred in captivity/obtained from a source outside the EU ... and very little was being accepted as proof, never mind a good enough REASON to be given the licence to keep an unproven-origin animal ("as a pet" wasn't good enough).
> 
> 
> Ok, say they make it illegal tomorrow to sell reptiles - you're allowed to sell what you've got NOW, for a grace period of, say, six months, including specialist reptile shops/etc.
> 
> Six months after the legislation passes, the only thing you can buy in specialist reptile shops is food and equipment, and private breeders will have sold off everything that isn't a personal pet.
> 
> Twelve months after the legislation passes, private breeders will have stopped the captive breeding of reptiles - of any description - because they can't afford to keep every single baby, they can't sell the babies to buyers, they can't stomach killing the ones that are "surplus" in order to keep what they want from the clutch and they can't even sell or trade animals to other breeders to keep bloodlines fresh. Of course, the "backyard breeders" who think that Mr. Slithers loves Ms. Slithers will still keep those snakes together and produce babies.... but if they can't legally sell them, what happens to them?
> 
> The reptile shops will gradually die out - if you don't have new people coming into the hobby (because you aren't getting new reptile owners, because they can't BUY the reptiles anywhere) then once you've sold an enclosure for every adult animal out there you're pretty much only working with food for those animals; the profit margin might not be big enough on JUST food to maintain a full shop....
> 
> And in the long term.... the hobby dies in the UK.
> 
> 
> 
> Animal welfare is about the health, welfare and well-being of INDIVIDUAL animals - people who are for animal welfare want to improve the lot of individual animals, whether that's in captivity, securing wild habitat.... an animal welfarist might lobby to have mink farms in the UK shut down on humane grounds or insist upon more humane treatment prior to and at the point of death.
> 
> Animal rights is about supporting an ideal ("Humans have no right to involve themselves in any way with animals") even at the EXPENSE of individual animals' welfare. Animal rights supporters set thousands of mink loose to destroy wildlife and be run over by cars in the name of their cause - resulting in massive cruelty to the very animals they claim to be defending the best interests of.
> 
> Before they realised the scope of the problem, Natural England/DEFRA were indeed talking about confiscating unlicenced EPS animals if the owners couldn't prove they were acquired before 1994/bred in captivity/obtained from a source outside the EU ... and very little was being accepted as proof, never mind a good enough REASON to be given the licence to keep an unproven-origin animal ("as a pet" wasn't good enough).


----------



## tomswel1

tomswel1 said:


> Ssthisto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Animal rights groups exerted pressure - using the same LIES and misrepresented truths that they were using on the recent APA flyer - on Wyevale. And because Wyevale is at heart a garden supply shop, stopping the hassle by getting rid of the pet section... well, it didn't hurt their bottom line as much as "Boycott Wyevale until they stop selling pets" does!
> 
> 
> You don't think so?
> 
> Before they realised the scope of the problem, Natural England/DEFRA were indeed talking about confiscating unlicenced EPS animals if the owners couldn't prove they were acquired before 1994/bred in captivity/obtained from a source outside the EU ... and very little was being accepted as proof, never mind a good enough REASON to be given the licence to keep an unproven-origin animal ("as a pet" wasn't good enough).
> 
> 
> Ok, say they make it illegal tomorrow to sell reptiles - you're allowed to sell what you've got NOW, for a grace period of, say, six months, including specialist reptile shops/etc.
> 
> Six months after the legislation passes, the only thing you can buy in specialist reptile shops is food and equipment, and private breeders will have sold off everything that isn't a personal pet.
> 
> Twelve months after the legislation passes, private breeders will have stopped the captive breeding of reptiles - of any description - because they can't afford to keep every single baby, they can't sell the babies to buyers, they can't stomach killing the ones that are "surplus" in order to keep what they want from the clutch and they can't even sell or trade animals to other breeders to keep bloodlines fresh. Of course, the "backyard breeders" who think that Mr. Slithers loves Ms. Slithers will still keep those snakes together and produce babies.... but if they can't legally sell them, what happens to them?
> 
> The reptile shops will gradually die out - if you don't have new people coming into the hobby (because you aren't getting new reptile owners, because they can't BUY the reptiles anywhere) then once you've sold an enclosure for every adult animal out there you're pretty much only working with food for those animals; the profit margin might not be big enough on JUST food to maintain a full shop....
> 
> And in the long term.... the hobby dies in the UK.
> 
> 
> 
> Animal welfare is about the health, welfare and well-being of INDIVIDUAL animals - people who are for animal welfare want to improve the lot of individual animals, whether that's in captivity, securing wild habitat.... an animal welfarist might lobby to have mink farms in the UK shut down on humane grounds or insist upon more humane treatment prior to and at the point of death.
> 
> Animal rights is about supporting an ideal ("Humans have no right to involve themselves in any way with animals") even at the EXPENSE of individual animals' welfare. Animal rights supporters set thousands of mink loose to destroy wildlife and be run over by cars in the name of their cause - resulting in massive cruelty to the very animals they claim to be defending the best interests of.
> 
> Before they realised the scope of the problem, Natural England/DEFRA were indeed talking about confiscating unlicenced EPS animals if the owners couldn't prove they were acquired before 1994/bred in captivity/obtained from a source outside the EU ... and very little was being accepted as proof, never mind a good enough REASON to be given the licence to keep an unproven-origin animal ("as a pet" wasn't good enough).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lets be honest this would be impossible to enforce they couldn't possibly know which homes have or not have them.
> 
> I take your other points and dont misunderstand me i'm not for banning the hobby, as i've said before it does have problems that could and need to be improved, its just only very few of us seem to want to admit that.
> I want the best for the welfare of the animals and there's still certain aspects of the the hobby which dont put that first.
> Theres enough cb animals to keep the hobby going for a lifetime i dont believe there's a need to keep importing animals half way round the world for peoples selfish lust for a hobby at the animals expense.
> If there was no money to be made the hobby wouldn't exist (well not on the scale it is) in the first place so lets not all pretend this all about animal welfare
Click to expand...


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

tomswel1 said:


> tomswel1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lets be honest this would be impossible to enforce (you want to take the chance and find out later that actually, there is a way it could be?) they couldn't possibly know which homes have or not have them.
> 
> I take your other points and dont misunderstand me i'm not for banning the hobby, as i've said before it* does have problems* (yes, but those problems are much closer to home than importation/export problems) that could and need to be improved, its just only very few of us seem to want to admit that.
> I want the best for the welfare of the animals and there's still certain aspects of the the hobby which dont put that first.
> Theres enough cb animals to keep the hobby going for a lifetime (if all your intrested in is Leo's and beardies and corns and royals.) i dont believe there's a need to keep importing animals half way round the world for peoples selfish lust for a hobby at the animals expense.
> If there was no money to be made the hobby wouldn't exist (how do you know? A lot of money must go yearly on upgrading growing animals housing and the animals themselves) (well not on the scale it is) in the first place so lets not all pretend this all about animal welfare
> 
> 
> 
> Bits in red.
> Still think that the importation "issue" is not the big problem. It is where the antis get most of their ammo from, however it is not the pure evil thing it is made out to be, IF it is done responsibly and is controlled. I will say i do not like it. If a CB population of every lizard and snake were avaliable, that would be perfect. But as of yet, that isn't possible. In a few years, it is quite possible however.
> The one WC thing I really don't like, is the importation of animals which the sellers know are very very very unlikley (ie neigh on impossible) to breed in a captive environment for whatever reason. That I see as a waste.
> 
> As a matter of fact, I can give you a example of how I see WC to CB....
> I'm after a female A. Capra soonish, as I hope to breed them in the not too distant future, as I think they are a brilliant little lizard that isn't as avaliable as they should be. A lot of them are WC however, as far as I can find out. I have a male, he is CB (I was told anyway)
> Now, it is entirely possible, whilst it is something that i would like to avoid as much as possible, that I will end up with a WC female. I am looking for a CB one of course. But, if I do, I will be content with the fact that she will go on to help protect those remaining wild ones by bolstering the CB populations. Even only a couple of eggs a year, means a couple more CB Horned dragons a year not taken from the wild.
> 
> It's not pretty, but it's how it is.
Click to expand...


----------



## cbarnes1987

is there a fb page for our cause yet?


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

cbarnes1987 said:


> is there a fb page for our cause yet?


Don't think so no.... it's the updating it part that no-one can be bothered with :lol2:


----------



## Sephiroth

tomswel1 said:


> Lets be honest this would be impossible to enforce they couldn't possibly know which homes have or not have them.
> 
> I take your other points and dont misunderstand me i*'m not for banning the hobby*, as i've said before it does have problems that could and need to be improved, its just only very few of us seem to want to admit that.
> I want the best for the welfare of the animals and there's still certain aspects of the the hobby which dont put that first.
> Theres enough cb animals to keep the hobby going for a lifetime i dont believe there's a need to keep importing animals half way round the world for peoples selfish lust for a hobby at the animals expense.
> If there was no money to be made the hobby wouldn't exist (well not on the scale it is) in the first place so lets not all pretend this all about animal welfare


now your getting to the point of all this... the APA/Lush campaign was never about stopping the trade of wild caught animals.

It was to ban reptile keeping completely! No more reptiles being caught would just be one of the effects that would have.

And the way they are trying to achieve it is through gross exaggeration of the problems we _do_ have (exaggerating figures up to one hundred times greater than their real value), some lies, and clever (though unethical) marketing techniques.

We could all _understand_ a campaign to stop animals being wild caught... we may not agree with it either, but we could at least understand where they were coming from. But they have been promoting a campaign that refers to all reptile breeders as "invariably inhumane." *Invariably*... without exception. 

:devil:


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Don't think so no.... it's the updating it part that no-one can be bothered with :lol2:


Rise Against lUSH'S Campaign ( to stop the keeping of Pets ) | Facebook
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=142075744802&ref=ts

I joined these...


----------



## Ssthisto

tomswel1 said:


> Lets be honest this would be impossible to enforce they couldn't possibly know which homes have or not have them.


"Impossible to enforce" doesn't stop legislation from happening. The Dangerous Dogs Act is, in practice, nearly impossible to enforce - but you can bet I'm not going to try to obtain an APBT on the idea that "eh, they'll never catch me with it, the legislation isn't enforced consistently."



> as i've said before it does have problems that could and need to be improved,


Absolutely - there are issues that need to be resolved. By people who believe it is REASONABLE to keep reptiles as pets and therefore have animal WELFARE in mind instead of some mistaken ideal of Animal Rights.

The animal rights solution to "poor advice given in pet shops" is not "ensure that there is a country-wide recommended code of practice and standard care sheet for each group of animals and that shops who do not issue these care sheets lose their shop licence" ... it's "Stop selling pets entirely". Sure, it might solve the problem of bad advice being given by SHOPS but it won't stop bad advice being given by people on the internet, by breeders who've "done it that way for the last thirty years (and think a leopard gecko lives as long as a hamster)" .... whereas if people can get consistent good advice from shops, where they're buying the equipment, that's a better solution!



> Theres enough cb animals to keep the hobby going for a lifetime


But people do buy WC animals to eventually CREATE CB gene pools.... no, they're not doing it for conservation, but they ARE doing it to produce captive breeding groups. And I think that's valuable, personally.


----------



## connor 1213

everyone pm me if your up for glasgow


----------



## Pete Q

tomswel1 said:


> needed to look it up then, nicely copy and pasted already read that


You don't seem to no what your on about so I thought I'd help.
Never mind.


----------



## Pete Q

Pete Q said:


> You don't seem to no what your on about so I thought I'd help.
> Never mind.


Hey, I was silly really,:blush: at the end of the day you have somethings I agree with there, you just seem up for a fight.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Pete Q said:


> You don't seem to no what your on about so I thought I'd help.
> Never mind.





Pete Q said:


> Hey, I was silly really,:blush: at the end of the day you have somethings I agree with there, you just seem up for a fight.


?????


----------



## tomswel1

Sephiroth said:


> now your getting to the point of all this... the APA/Lush campaign was never about stopping the trade of wild caught animals.
> 
> It was to ban reptile keeping completely! No more reptiles being caught would just be one of the effects that would have.
> 
> And the way they are trying to achieve it is through gross exaggeration of the problems we _do_ have (exaggerating figures up to one hundred times greater than their real value), some lies, and clever (though unethical) marketing techniques.
> 
> We could all _understand_ a campaign to stop animals being wild caught... we may not agree with it either, but we could at least understand where they were coming from. But they have been promoting a campaign that refers to all reptile breeders as "invariably inhumane." *Invariably*... without exception.
> 
> :devil:


Well if thats what their campaign is all about then its ridiculous, what would the plan be with the thousands of cb animals be ? release them in the wild?


----------



## tomswel1

Ssthisto said:


> "Impossible to enforce" doesn't stop legislation from happening. The Dangerous Dogs Act is, in practice, nearly impossible to enforce - but you can bet I'm not going to try to obtain an APBT on the idea that "eh, they'll never catch me with it, the legislation isn't enforced consistently."
> 
> 
> Absolutely - there are issues that need to be resolved. By people who believe it is REASONABLE to keep reptiles as pets and therefore have animal WELFARE in mind instead of some mistaken ideal of Animal Rights.
> 
> The animal rights solution to "poor advice given in pet shops" is not "ensure that there is a country-wide recommended code of practice and standard care sheet for each group of animals and that shops who do not issue these care sheets lose their shop licence" ... it's "Stop selling pets entirely". Sure, it might solve the problem of bad advice being given by SHOPS but it won't stop bad advice being given by people on the internet, by breeders who've "done it that way for the last thirty years (and think a leopard gecko lives as long as a hamster)" .... whereas if people can get consistent good advice from shops, where they're buying the equipment, that's a better solution!
> 
> 
> But people do buy WC animals to eventually CREATE CB gene pools.... no, they're not doing it for conservation, but they ARE doing it to produce captive breeding groups. And I think that's valuable, personally.


If somethings beneficial in the long run i dont have a problem with it


----------



## tomswel1

Pete Q said:


> You don't seem to no what your on about so I thought I'd help.
> Never mind.


/

????????????:whistling2:


----------



## repnanny

I have been following this discussion with interest and i have a question - I am not a breeder I juist have a number of assorted reptiles and snails who I spend a lot of time, effort, care, attention, love and money on, they in turn lay copious numbers of eggs. These I hatch and then sell on once babies are big/old enough for £1 - £2 each to like minded people to increase bloodlines etc. The money i make is not profit it barely covers the food i use rearing them to a saleable size and transport costs to their new homes. My question to all these people who wish to stop owners like my self, is what would you like me to do with the 300-400 eggs my snails lay on a regular basis.
1. sell them on once old enough ensuring their survival or
2. drown them
Only i know what i prefer
comments?


----------



## Pete Q

repnanny said:


> I have been following this discussion with interest and i have a question - I am not a breeder I juist have a number of assorted reptiles and snails who I spend a lot of time, effort, care, attention, love and money on, they in turn lay copious numbers of eggs. These I hatch and then sell on once babies are big/old enough for £1 - £2 each to like minded people to increase bloodlines etc. The money i make is not profit it barely covers the food i use rearing them to a saleable size and transport costs to their new homes. My question to all these people who wish to stop owners like my self, is what would you like me to do with the 300-400 eggs my snails lay on a regular basis.
> 1. sell them on once old enough ensuring their survival or
> 2. drown them
> Only i know what i prefer
> comments?


Here is just a little of what they want, stop reptile shows, stop imports of reptiles, and stop reptile breeding, add that little lot up and in time reptiles will not be kept anymore. 
So although some animal rights people think that animals are better off dead rather than be a captive, most are happy for them to live out their lives, a breeding ban would result in no more after that.


----------



## Podarcis

*The Problem:Why everyone is right and wrong*

This is a heated debate, on which most people will have a view. It is important that we on the forum use this virtual space to increase understanding and knowledge, and not indulge prejudices or 'flame' and abuse those who are of a different point of view.

Firstly, then, it is true to say that there are many people who abuse, mistreat, neglect and exploit their herps. In doing so, there may have been a poorly understood, but plausible impact upon wild populations and the quality of life per animal. That is not to say that every or most people who keep herps do so in this way, but it does happen. As a community, we cannot legitimately deny it, and we must be constantly seeking to improve out skills and distance ourselves from avaricious or harmful practices and behaviours.

Secondly, as a counterpoint, it is important to recognise that the captive husbandry of reptiles and amphibia has been usefully conducted for centuries. There are, regrettably, a number of species which owe their continued existence to captive cultivation. In an earlier post, I mentioned the Axolotl (_Amblystoma mexicanum_) which is on the verge of extinction in the heavily polluted waters of Lake Xocimilco. Those who watched Sir David Attenborough's 'Life in Cold Blood' will have seen further examples.

I am involved in a number of captive breeding projects, and I flatter myself that I look after my animals well. I recognise that I have bored forum members long enough, but, as a final point; I would like to see "herpers" and "antis" recognise both the above points and come together to maintain the hobby as a source for conservation and science, as well as pleasure and profit.


----------



## Natrix

Podarcis said:


> This is a heated debate, on which most people will have a view. It is important that we on the forum use this virtual space to increase understanding and knowledge, and not indulge prejudices or 'flame' and abuse those who are of a different point of view.
> 
> Firstly, then, it is true to say that there are many people who abuse, mistreat, neglect and exploit their herps. In doing so, there may have been a poorly understood, but plausible impact upon wild populations and the quality of life per animal. That is not to say that every or most people who keep herps do so in this way, but it does happen. As a community, we cannot legitimately deny it, and we must be constantly seeking to improve out skills and distance ourselves from avaricious or harmful practices and behaviours..


There will always be people who fail to look after their animals just as there will always be people that fail to look after their children but all the figures from re-homing centres and indeed the RSPCA suggest that reptile keeping creates far less animal welfare problems than any of the other animal groups kept. I don't disagree that this is an area that needs to be worked on but it is wrong to use it as a reason to ban reptiles.



Podarcis said:


> Secondly, as a counterpoint, it is important to recognise that the captive husbandry of reptiles and amphibia has been usefully conducted for centuries. There are, regrettably, a number of species which owe their continued existence to captive cultivation. In an earlier post, I mentioned the Axolotl (_Amblystoma mexicanum_) which is on the verge of extinction in the heavily polluted waters of Lake Xocimilco. Those who watched Sir David Attenborough's 'Life in Cold Blood' will have seen further examples..


Good point:no1:



Podarcis said:


> I am involved in a number of captive breeding projects, and I flatter myself that I look after my animals well. I recognise that I have bored forum members long enough, but, as a final point; I would like to see "herpers" and "antis" recognise both the above points and come together to maintain the hobby as a source for conservation and science, as well as pleasure and profit.


There is no chance of this happening.
To suck money out of the gullible and get their backing, you need to present them with a clear enemy. Take a look at one of the biggest ever extremist groups, the Nazi party in Germany and what their propaganda allowed them to do to the Jews.
Groups like APA have constructed an image of us to their deciples that suggests we are evil devils that can not be trusted and are only into animals for the money to be made regardless of how many die a cruel agonising death. Any attempt to work with us now would be met with outrage by their supporters and a great loss of donations. Even if they wanted to work with us now they couldn't thanks to the success of their own propaganda.
There is also no money to be made from working with us and the primary objective of any buisiness is making money.

Gordon

FBH VC


----------



## Podarcis

"There is no chance of this happening.
To suck money out of the gullible and get their backing, you need to present them with a clear enemy. Take a look at one of the biggest ever extremist groups, the Nazi party in Germany and what their propaganda allowed them to do to the Jews.
Groups like APA have constructed an image of us to their deciples that suggests we are evil devils that can not be trusted and are only into animals for the money to be made regardless of how many die a cruel agonising death. Any attempt to work with us now would be met with outrage by their supporters and a great loss of donations. Even if they wanted to work with us now they couldn't thanks to the success of their own propaganda.
There is also no money to be made from working with us and the primary objective of any buisiness is making money."


It is a stretch bordering on the offensive to compare the questioning, or even unreasonable criticism, of the keeping of herps to the Holocaust. Please don't. I would suggest that evidence shows captive reptile keeping enjoys a positive profile for many thanks to - love or loath him - Steve Irwin. Groups such as SUN and others which moderate the impact of the pet trade on conservation play an important role in bridging this gap. I would suggest that, as with angling, horse racing and a variety of animal-related activities, there is very little real threat so long as we remain responsible and active in conservation and science. I note your membership of the FBH, which I know has tried to do this. I welcome your acknowledgement of maltreatment in the hobby, by the way, and, no just because something can be abused (cars, horses, alcohol etc) does not mean it should be banned.


----------



## Natrix

Podarcis said:


> "There is no chance of this happening.
> To suck money out of the gullible and get their backing, you need to present them with a clear enemy. Take a look at one of the biggest ever extremist groups, the Nazi party in Germany and what their propaganda allowed them to do to the Jews.
> Groups like APA have constructed an image of us to their deciples that suggests we are evil devils that can not be trusted and are only into animals for the money to be made regardless of how many die a cruel agonising death. Any attempt to work with us now would be met with outrage by their supporters and a great loss of donations. Even if they wanted to work with us now they couldn't thanks to the success of their own propaganda.
> There is also no money to be made from working with us and the primary objective of any buisiness is making money."
> 
> 
> It is a stretch bordering on the offensive to compare the questioning, or even unreasonable criticism, of the keeping of herps to the Holocaust. Please don't. .


I didn't compare anything to the Holocaust, my reference was to the stream of Anti Semantic propaganda pushed on to the public by the Nazi party which was what enabled them to come to power and was also the reason why they was able to do what they did without the public questioning their actions.

My reason for using this comparison is because it is exactly what the Anti groups have done. As I said above, they have portrayed us as the bad guys using fals information, exagerations and lies and because of this they can no more suddenly be seen to be working with us than the Nazi's could of suddenly started being buddies with the Jews. 

Please don't accuse me of saying something I haven't said, please leave that to the Anti's




Podarcis said:


> "I would suggest that evidence shows captive reptile keeping enjoys a positive profile for many thanks to - love or loath him - Steve Irwin. Groups such as SUN and others which moderate the impact of the pet trade on conservation play an important role in bridging this gap. I would suggest that, as with angling, horse racing and a variety of animal-related activities, there is very little real threat so long as we remain responsible and active in conservation and science. I note your membership of the FBH, which I know has tried to do this. I welcome your acknowledgement of maltreatment in the hobby, by the way, and, no just because something can be abused (cars, horses, alcohol etc) does not mean it should be banned.


I am in the middle of a thunderstorm, Turnining off will reply when storm passes.

Gordon


----------



## Podarcis

"I didn't compare anything to the Holocaust, my reference was to the stream of Anti Semantic propaganda pushed on to the public by the Nazi party which was what enabled them to come to power and was also the reason why they was able to do what they did without the public questioning their actions.

My reason for using this comparison is because it is exactly what the Anti groups have done. As I said above, they have portrayed us as the bad guys using fals information, exagerations and lies and because of this they can no more suddenly be seen to be working with us than the Nazi's could of suddenly started being buddies with the Jews. 

Please don't accuse me of saying something I haven't said, please leave that to the Anti's"

Firstly, you mean 'anti-semitic' not 'anti-semantic' and, secondly, I made no accusation, but, in your response, you are confirming a comparing of methodologies. you've then gone on making glib comments about Nazis being buddies with Jews. Sorry, but I don't think I wish to continue this discussion.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Natrix said:


> There will always be people who fail to look after their animals just as there will always be people that fail to look after their children but all the figures from re-homing centres and indeed the RSPCA suggest that reptile keeping creates far less animal welfare problems than any of the other animal groups kept. I don't disagree that this is an area that needs to be worked on but it is wrong to use it as a reason to ban reptiles.
> 
> 
> Good point:no1:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no chance of this happening.
> To suck money out of the gullible and get their backing, you need to present them with a clear enemy. Take a look at one of the biggest ever extremist groups, the Nazi party in Germany and what their propaganda allowed them to do to the Jews.
> Groups like APA have constructed an image of us to their deciples that suggests we are evil devils that can not be trusted and are only into animals for the money to be made regardless of how many die a cruel agonising death. Any attempt to work with us now would be met with outrage by their supporters and a great loss of donations. Even if they wanted to work with us now they couldn't thanks to the success of their own propaganda.
> There is also no money to be made from working with us and the primary objective of any buisiness is making money.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> FBH VC





Podarcis said:


> "There is no chance of this happening.
> To suck money out of the gullible and get their backing, you need to present them with a clear enemy. Take a look at one of the biggest ever extremist groups, the Nazi party in Germany and what their propaganda allowed them to do to the Jews.
> Groups like APA have constructed an image of us to their deciples that suggests we are evil devils that can not be trusted and are only into animals for the money to be made regardless of how many die a cruel agonising death. Any attempt to work with us now would be met with outrage by their supporters and a great loss of donations. Even if they wanted to work with us now they couldn't thanks to the success of their own propaganda.
> There is also no money to be made from working with us and the primary objective of any buisiness is making money."
> 
> 
> It is a stretch bordering on the offensive to compare the questioning, or even unreasonable criticism, of the keeping of herps to the Holocaust. Please don't. I would suggest that evidence shows captive reptile keeping enjoys a positive profile for many thanks to - love or loath him - Steve Irwin. Groups such as SUN and others which moderate the impact of the pet trade on conservation play an important role in bridging this gap. I would suggest that, as with angling, horse racing and a variety of animal-related activities, there is very little real threat so long as we remain responsible and active in conservation and science. I note your membership of the FBH, which I know has tried to do this. I welcome your acknowledgement of maltreatment in the hobby, by the way, and, no just because something can be abused (cars, horses, alcohol etc) does not mean it should be banned.





Natrix said:


> I didn't compare anything to the Holocaust, my reference was to the stream of Anti Semantic propaganda pushed on to the public by the Nazi party which was what enabled them to come to power and was also the reason why they was able to do what they did without the public questioning their actions.
> 
> My reason for using this comparison is because it is exactly what the Anti groups have done. As I said above, they have portrayed us as the bad guys using fals information, exagerations and lies and because of this they can no more suddenly be seen to be working with us than the Nazi's could of suddenly started being buddies with the Jews.
> 
> Please don't accuse me of saying something I haven't said, please leave that to the Anti's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am in the middle of a thunderstorm, Turnining off will reply when storm passes.
> 
> Gordon





Podarcis said:


> "I didn't compare anything to the Holocaust, my reference was to the stream of Anti Semantic propaganda pushed on to the public by the Nazi party which was what enabled them to come to power and was also the reason why they was able to do what they did without the public questioning their actions.
> 
> My reason for using this comparison is because it is exactly what the Anti groups have done. As I said above, they have portrayed us as the bad guys using fals information, exagerations and lies and because of this they can no more suddenly be seen to be working with us than the Nazi's could of suddenly started being buddies with the Jews.
> 
> Please don't accuse me of saying something I haven't said, please leave that to the Anti's"
> 
> Firstly, you mean 'anti-semitic' not 'anti-semantic' and, secondly, I made no accusation, but, in your response, you are confirming a comparing of methodologies. you've then gone on making glib comments about Nazis being buddies with Jews. Sorry, but I don't think I wish to continue this discussion.



I read the original point very differently tbh, probably how it was intended...

Think everyone should probably chill a little? I got the comparison, and think it's been interpreted in a way it wasn't originally meant in....


----------



## Natrix

Podarcis said:


> "Firstly, you mean 'anti-semitic' not 'anti-semantic' and, secondly, I made no accusation, but, in your response, you are confirming a comparing of methodologies. you've then gone on making glib comments about Nazis being buddies with Jews. Sorry, but I don't think I wish to continue this discussion.


Your accusation

*It is a stretch bordering on the offensive to compare the questioning, or even unreasonable criticism, of the keeping of herps to the Holocaust. Please don't. *

A spelling mistake compliments of spell check and a few historical facts and you don't want to play any more.

And no glib comments just a statement relating what could not of happened.

It seems to me that you are looking for a way out of this discussion.

Perhaps before you come onto a web site devoted to reptiles, defending a group like APA you should find out all the facts relating to their activities first. Nothing this group has done in the last four years has helped any animals in any way. It is a profit making business that needs to keep the illusion going if it is going to make money. 
I stand by what I said above, in the way that I said it and for the reason that I said it. If you choose to see good in a group that is hell bent on destroying your hobby (assuming that it is your hobby) that is your choice but my choice and that of many others is to fight their vitriolic rhetoric at every opportunity.

Stops to check everything is correct before posting to avoid upsetting anyone over a spelling error.

Gordon


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

> To suck money out of the gullible and get their backing, you need to present them with a clear enemy. Take a look at one of the biggest ever extremist groups, the Nazi party in Germany and what their propaganda allowed them to do to the Jews.
> Groups like APA have constructed an image of us to their deciples that suggests we are evil devils that can not be trusted and are only into animals for the money to be made regardless of how many die a cruel agonising death. Any attempt to work with us now would be met with outrage by their supporters and a great loss of donations. Even if they wanted to work with us now they couldn't thanks to the success of their own propaganda.
> There is also no money to be made from working with us and the primary objective of any buisiness is making money.


Seriously. 
Calm down... 

I read this as "I'm comparing the APA's techniques of exaggerating facts and using misinformation to get people to support them - which is pretty much what they do - to the way in which another extremist group, the Nazis (yes they did disturbing things, but not the point I think, so drop it) who used oh, wait, misinformation and exaggerated facts to get people to support them. 

I will say it probably wasn't the best analogy to pick, but I can't see anyone being accused of being a Nazi or whatever... so... chill pills people.


----------



## Podarcis

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Seriously.
> Calm down...
> 
> I read this as "I'm comparing the APA's techniques of exaggerating facts and using misinformation to get people to support them - which is pretty much what they do - to the way in which another extremist group, the Nazis (yes they did disturbing things, but not the point I think, so drop it) who used oh, wait, misinformation and exaggerated facts to get people to support them.
> 
> I will say it probably wasn't the best analogy to pick, but I can't see anyone being accused of being a Nazi or whatever... so... chill pills people.


Yes, quite, I over-reacted a little, for reasons of my own. Sent a PM to Natrix which has hopefully resolved matters. Sounds like we have enough enemies without squabbling amongst ourselves!

How come these situations always call for the ninjas?:blush:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Podarcis said:


> Yes, quite, I over-reacted a little, for reasons of my own. Sent a PM to Natrix which has hopefully resolved matters. Sounds like we have enough enemies without squabbling amongst ourselves!
> 
> How come these situations always call for the ninjas?:blush:


Bwahahahahahaha!! 

*ahem* 

Because us Ninjas are awesome. 

Good, everything better be settled now! 100% sure no-one meant any offense in anything they actually said. 
Back to the actual issues at had now, yes? Those being APA, anti's, and the real problems within the hobby if I remember rightly. 
:lol2:


----------



## Podarcis

Indeed. I'm not sure what the next best step is really. I know REPTA (?) the trade organisation have put out information in the past. Hopefully,with the economy etc this will be seen as low down on the gov's agenda, so little will happen. Surely banning the hobby will impact upon the economy?


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Yeah I doubt they would really do anything, but the continuous pressure from APA-type groups is causing problems, if not so extreme as a blanket ban... How many shows have been shut down/canceled because of them for a start. 
I'd say the ideal start point is general education to those who really have a say, I mean, if those who can influence these things can say, actually, that's wrong, and know that the APA talks nonsense, then they aren't ever going to get anywhere. That, and proving them wrong at every turn, trashing their reputation and giving them a bad name for getting their facts wrong and just being interested in making money. If that could be done, there probably isn't a lot of people who would really pay them any attention.


----------



## Podarcis

Yes. One of the most effective things seems to be the personal credentials of the people involved. Turns out a lot of the people trotted out to give 'expert' opinions have very dubious histories.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Lol, wonder why that is... Oh right yeah, because the real experts wont read off cards for cash...


----------



## Podarcis

*Problems*

Do you know of anyone, breeders or otherwise who have had an APA problem directly?


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Not directly, but there was a wyvale (sp) pet section posted a few pages ago that was forced to close because of the APA, apparently they weren't substandard and knew the stuff.


----------



## andy007

Podarcis said:


> Do you know of anyone, breeders or otherwise who have had an APA problem directly?


Most reptile societies that run shows come under fire, as is happening with the Portsmouth show at the moment.


----------



## bobby

> *Breeding reptiles in captivity for the pet trade causes suffering on a huge scale.* According to the Animal Protection Agency, many commercial reptile-breeding operations in the UK routinely operate outside of the law, are unlicensed and un-inspected, and *conditions are invariably inhumane.*


I don't get it?

Are they saying if I decide to breed snakes I will start keeping my animals inhumanely?


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

bobby said:


> I don't get it?
> 
> Are they saying if I decide to breed snakes I will start keeping my animals inhumanely?


I think the point their trying to make is that reptiles kept in captivity are subjected to inhumane cruelty. 

So yeah, pretty much. Complete b/s eh?


----------



## Chris Newman

Podarcis said:


> Indeed. I'm not sure what the next best step is really. I know REPTA (?) the trade organisation have put out information in the past. Hopefully,with the economy etc this will be seen as low down on the gov's agenda, so little will happen. Surely banning the hobby will impact upon the economy?


The truth of the matter is this attack on our hobby by the APA supported by Lush will have no direct impact, our dear friend Elaine may have the ear of one or two radical MP’s, but in reality she has no influence what so ever. Political reptile keeping is entirely safe from restrictions by UK government, EU legislation could be a different matter, but from our own government we are entirely safe.

The fundamental issue for me is the funds being raised by Lush for the APA, what is that to be used for! If it goes to the business, APA Ltd, who cares, research project on some beach in the Bahamas perhaps! I have absolutely no interest where the money goes that is raked in for the business because that has no impact on reptile keeping.

Radical Animal Rights groups setting up charities in order to try and give the business name some credibility is becoming rife, it’s quite clever really. Limited companies, business, are largely unregulated, you can do and say what you like, charities are entirely different, young Elaine would not get away with a fraction of what she has with the business. Which is why if you look at the accounts of a typical AR business and charity you will note something of a disparity in the funds received by each!

What concerns me is if the funs raised by Lush are to go to the charity? In our interview I do wonder if Tom Langton let the cat out of the bag when he refereed to ‘child abuse’…. Is the APA planning a national campaign to poison the minds of young children with its anti animal keeping agenda! That would worry me!!!


----------



## Ssthisto

Chris Newman said:


> What concerns me is if the funs raised by Lush are to go to the charity? In our interview I do wonder if Tom Langton let the cat out of the bag when he refereed to ‘child abuse’…. Is the APA planning a national campaign to poison the minds of young children with its anti animal keeping agenda! That would worry me!!!


Chris, they've actually said specifically (in the Lush advertising materials) that the funds raised are to go to an APA "educational programme" to present to school-age children.


----------



## Chris Newman

Ssthisto said:


> Chris, they've actually said specifically (in the Lush advertising materials) that the funds raised are to go to an APA "educational programme" to present to school-age children.


Then that is of deep concern and something that should be redressed, as a parent I am deeply concerned that fanatics should be allowed to poison the minds of children with their distorted views and dishonest facts. Perhaps this is a matter that needs to be taken up with the Minister of education!


----------



## Geomyda

Chris Newman said:


> Then that is of deep concern and something that should be redressed, as a parent I am deeply concerned that fanatics should be allowed to poison the minds of children with their distorted views and dishonest facts. Perhaps this is a matter that needs to be taken up with the Minister of education!


When I was young, we were told: "Those that told lies, would have their mouths washed out with soap and water". Maybe, Tolland and Lush should should be made to "eat their words", so to speak. A foaming soap Chameleon, might be fitting retribution. Lush, should be made to BLUSH:blush:


----------



## adam_jones

wow that really is deeply worrying if the money is truely being used to "educate" children with mis informed information about reptile keeping will be keeping an eye on this thread me thinks


----------



## tomswel1

repnanny said:


> I have been following this discussion with interest and i have a question - I am not a breeder I juist have a number of assorted reptiles and snails who I spend a lot of time, effort, care, attention, love and money on, they in turn lay copious numbers of eggs. These I hatch and then sell on once babies are big/old enough for £1 - £2 each to like minded people to increase bloodlines etc. The money i make is not profit it barely covers the food i use rearing them to a saleable size and transport costs to their new homes. My question to all these people who wish to stop owners like my self, is what would you like me to do with the 300-400 eggs my snails lay on a regular basis.
> 1. sell them on once old enough ensuring their survival or
> 2. drown them
> Only i know what i prefer
> comments?


I dont think anyone in this forum is trying to stop that, if thats lush/apa intentions they are wasting their time and money. I really dont see how you could ever stop it and the governments not going to be wasting its time doing so.. As i said before nobody is going to remove peoples reptiles from their homes even if they did ban reptile keeping. how could such a thing ever be enforced? totally impossible, they'd have to search every home in the country 

Some things need to be changed but not stopped


----------



## tomswel1

Chris Newman said:


> The truth of the matter is this attack on our hobby by the APA supported by Lush will have no direct impact, our dear friend Elaine may have the ear of one or two radical MP’s, but in reality she has no influence what so ever. Political reptile keeping is entirely safe from restrictions by UK government, EU legislation could be a different matter, but from our own government we are entirely safe.
> 
> The fundamental issue for me is the funds being raised by Lush for the APA, what is that to be used for! If it goes to the business, APA Ltd, who cares, research project on some beach in the Bahamas perhaps! I have absolutely no interest where the money goes that is raked in for the business because that has no impact on reptile keeping.
> 
> Radical Animal Rights groups setting up charities in order to try and give the business name some credibility is becoming rife, it’s quite clever really. Limited companies, business, are largely unregulated, you can do and say what you like, charities are entirely different, young Elaine would not get away with a fraction of what she has with the business. Which is why if you look at the accounts of a typical AR business and charity you will note something of a disparity in the funds received by each!
> 
> What concerns me is if the funs raised by Lush are to go to the charity? In our interview I do wonder if Tom Langton let the cat out of the bag when he refereed to ‘child abuse’…. Is the APA planning a national campaign to poison the minds of young children with its anti animal keeping agenda! That would worry me!!!


I wouldn't worry about that too much either, as children grow up they make their own minds up about things. Mine have been brought up with reptiles but have no real interest in them.Infact my son thinks its unfair to keep them in cages. 
Most of whats said goes in one ear and out the other, few will have any interest in keeping them and those that do will do regardless of what lush or the apa say.


----------



## Natrix

tomswel1 said:


> I wouldn't worry about that too much either, as children grow up they make their own minds up about things. Mine have been brought up with reptiles but have no real interest in them.Infact my son thinks its unfair to keep them in cages.
> Most of whats said goes in one ear and out the other, few will have any interest in keeping them and those that do will do regardless of what lush or the apa say.


If you go back to the beginning of Animal Rights and read the work of Peter Singer you will find that one of the first notions considered is that no one group can change anything over night. The whole AR plan is designed around a lengthy, constant chipping away at the current culture to change attitudes and expectations of the populace. AR also recognise that the young of our nation are the future and that they should be particularly singled out as targets because their young minds are more easily moulded to accept new ideas.

You are quite right in saying that non of the things APA is demanding will just happen but the point that you are missing is that every little article in the news paper, every little statement on the radio and every little news item that gets onto the telly begins to build up a picture in the nations psyche of reptile keeping being a bad thing, especially our children minds and they are our politicians of the future. 

This constant drip, drip, drip of miss information even works it’s way into the minds of people that are involved in the hobby and should know better. Take a look at how many people are against wild caught animals but when asked why can only quote the AR propaganda against it or like wise how many people think we have hundreds of rescue centres packed with rescued reptiles when in fact reptiles number the fewest animals in rescue centres. 

At the same time the AR movement is chipping away at what we are allowed to do. Every time the AR movement forces a piece of legislation to be brought in to control something, we lose a bit more of our freedom as keepers. And as more people begin to believe the AR rhetoric the movement will be able to push for more sever legislation to control us and the nation will accept it because they will see us as something bad that needs controlling.

Unless we stand up for the truth now we will eventually see all the bad press and the bad legislation meet in the middle. Then some Government in the future will panic and decide that something needs to be done and yet another bit of bad legislation will go through and we will all become another activity that used to happen. Reptile keeping will join the list along with fox hunting, smoking, corporal punishment, pit bulls and many others. Now I’m not saying you should support any of the things that have been banned but if you look at the banned list, you will find there were thousands of people saying *"it will never happen, they can’t do that!!!!!!!"* So ignore groups like the APA at your peril.

Gordon Glasson
FBH VC


----------



## Natrix

tomswel1 said:


> I dont think anyone in this forum is trying to stop that, if thats lush/apa intentions they are wasting their time and money. I really dont see how you could ever stop it and the governments not going to be wasting its time doing so.. As i said before nobody is going to remove peoples reptiles from their homes even if they did ban reptile keeping. how could such a thing ever be enforced? totally impossible, they'd have to search every home in the country
> 
> Some things need to be changed but not stopped


Can I suggest just two simple pieces of legislation.

1 no more imports 
(CB, CF and WC all banned from importation)

2 A total ban on the breeding and selling of reptiles. 
(no more breeders, no breeders meetings, no pet shop sales, no private sales) 

Within five years the hobby would have shrunk to the point that made it un economical for manufacturers of equipment to continue making and selling equipment. Live food producers would go on longer depending on the sale of meal worms for garden birds. 

Within ten years there would be so few reptiles and keepers left that a ban on keeping could be pushed through.

I actually suspect it more likely that if it were to ever happen, they would require all current keepers to be licenced from the begining and a ban on the issue of new licences would be put in place shortly after. Once the last licence holder is gone there are no more legal reptile keepers. 

Gordon Glasson
FBH VC


----------



## tomswel1

yes i take your points i should know better than to say "never" too many nevers have happened :devil::devil: we can only fight on, the trouble with legislations is they are more often than not ill thought out, like with replica guns its now illegal to buy one after a certain period of history yet its still legal to buy any real deactivated one, crazy.


----------



## Natrix

tomswel1 said:


> yes i take your points i should know better than to say "never" too many nevers have happened :devil::devil: we can only fight on, *the trouble with legislations is they are more often than not ill thought out*, like with replica guns its now illegal to buy one after a certain period of history yet its still legal to buy any real deactivated one, crazy.


LOL Given the amount they tried to ban "Never say never" Should of been Labours campaign slogan.

The main people behind legislation are MP's and Civil servants. While they are mostly intelligent people they are rarely anything to do with the thing they are legislating against. They go on public opinion and loud, noisy, ban everything, extreme type people tend to get heard above the other more normal members of our society. If we are to fight back we are going to have to learn to shout a bit more. Take a look at the fantastic reaction by members of this site to the Lush anti reptile Campaign? A brilliant response by our side for once.:no1:

Gordon

FBH VC


----------



## **starry11**

Oh ffs they have a new video up. Even more emotive garbage to suck people in to buying stuff.

YouTube - Lush Cosmetics - APA Chameleon Campaign


----------



## daisyman97

**starry11** said:


> Oh ffs they have a new video up. Even more emotive garbage to suck people in to buying stuff.
> 
> YouTube - Lush Cosmetics - APA Chameleon Campaign


Sickening ¬_¬ I "liked" every comment from reptile keepers, as the most "liked" get put at the top of the screen. Do this with the sensible reptile keeping responses!


----------



## reptile_man_08

That Elaine Toad, BLATANT lies:devil::censor:


----------



## **starry11**

daisyman97 said:


> Sickening ¬_¬ I "liked" every comment from reptile keepers, as the most "liked" get put at the top of the screen. Do this with the sensible reptile keeping responses!


that's a good idea. Thumbs down the daft comments like "oh that's awful even though i have no research or knowledge about this" too. I left a comment on their main channel page so hopefully some people will see the other side and not buy into this crap.


----------



## reptile_man_08

Have done, on both accounts...They're deleting comments not supporting them though ¬¬


----------



## daisyman97

reptile_man_08 said:


> Have done, on both accounts...They're deleting comments not supporting them though ¬¬


Garh, so they want to start a debate, and enlighten people, yet wont allow a debate?!? Totally stupid and ignorant ¬_¬


----------



## Sephiroth

:war:
Can't believe they uploaded a second video... 

Had my say on the comments and thumbs up and downs where they were deserved :2thumb:

Don't forget to thumbs down the video as well! It only has 10 thumbs down at the moment :devil:


----------



## Roseanna

Sephiroth said:


> :war:
> Can't believe they uploaded a second video...
> 
> Had my say on the comments and thumbs up and downs where they were deserved :2thumb:
> 
> Don't forget to thumbs down the video as well! It only has 10 thumbs down at the moment :devil:


 I commented and went through all comments and added a thumbs up or thumbs down.
I'm sick of hearing about lush and the APA now :devil:


----------



## Geomyda

A thought occurs. The timing of this campaign coincides with a very good article on the keeping and captive breeding of Pygmy Chameleons in the latest issue of Practical Reptile Keeping. It shows,how in recent years these animals which have become very successfully bred in captivity:
Their suitability, to the naturalistic set ups provided in the Typical "Exoterra", or other modern well designed home vivarium and demonstrates how they can be kept. Freely available live insect food, which gives near perfect diet, is commercially produced in quantity and variety, and of course, the proof of captive young available from hobby breeders shows beyond any doubt that this group of Chameleons are very well suited to a modern form of Captive husbandry.
Does this article and others similar, not stand as examples of where herptoculture in 2010 have been so misrepresented by the "Tollandic Lushies"?:whistling2:


----------



## reptile_man_08

I'm reporting them to advertising standards authority, that latest videos has some REALLY blatant lies, maybe others should do the same?...But be clear and concise...And if I'm too young to do that, I'll do it on my dads behalf!:lol2:
Apologies, they do not seem to be deleting comments, the thumbs up was just taking some time.It wouldn't surprise me if they make the video comments private, or hopefully take it down, though.


----------



## TAL

A thought occures to me.

Youtube usually allows people to upload a counter argument video (not sure it will allow this for a "channel" but its worth a try).

I was thinking of putting something up along the lines of "I'm a crested gecko and the APA want me outta here"

Basically pointing out that Reptile Keeping is useful in stopping animals becomeing extinct. I'm happy to mesh together a video (IT is my thing) but I'd need some videos of healthy well look after cresties that I can talk over.

Ideally geckos in their habitat, I could use the odd 1-2 being handled but generally want to show that they are kept in good conditions.

Also, because I'm about to go to work and our internet access in monitored, could someone draw together as many statistics about cresties as they can, I could find all this myself, but that'll slow the whole process down and the quicker this gets uploaded the better. Would need to know how many are thought to be in the wild (if any), when they were thought to be extinct/on the verge of extinct, how many are now kept in captivity, any other useful info.

If any has/can make any suitable videos pm me and I'll give you my email address to send them to.

**EDIT**

Just checked and you can do a video upload, so if anyone can help I can hopefully have something up by tomorrow morning


----------



## Chris Newman

TAL said:


> A thought occures to me.
> 
> Youtube usually allows people to upload a counter argument video (not sure it will allow this for a "channel" but its worth a try).
> 
> I was thinking of putting something up along the lines of "I'm a crested gecko and the APA want me outta here"
> 
> Basically pointing out that Reptile Keeping is useful in stopping animals becomeing extinct. I'm happy to mesh together a video (IT is my thing) but I'd need some videos of healthy well look after cresties that I can talk over.
> 
> Ideally geckos in their habitat, I could use the odd 1-2 being handled but generally want to show that they are kept in good conditions.
> 
> Also, because I'm about to go to work and our internet access in monitored, could someone draw together as many statistics about cresties as they can, I could find all this myself, but that'll slow the whole process down and the quicker this gets uploaded the better. Would need to know how many are thought to be in the wild (if any), when they were thought to be extinct/on the verge of extinct, how many are now kept in captivity, any other useful info.
> 
> If any has/can make any suitable videos pm me and I'll give you my email address to send them to.
> 
> **EDIT**
> 
> Just checked and you can do a video upload, so if anyone can help I can hopefully have something up by tomorrow morning


I think this is an extremely good idea. The whole APA campaign backed by Lush is entirely dishonest, biased and misleading, it’s purely there to make money. Lush portray themselves as an ‘ethical company’, a concept I personally struggle to see when they are so willing to mislead their customers - but hey that their business…. 

A counter video telling the truth, would I think be extremely important. I think crested geckos would be a extremely good animal to cover. Thanks to keepers this species is safe from extinction. But what about chameleons, their campaign is biased on chameleons, so let’s tell their story as well!


----------



## TAL

Thanks Chris,

I'm a bit late to the whole protest thing but want to do my part too.

I could do this on Chameleons, but chose the crestie specifically because it works well with the tag line "I'm a xxxx and the APA want me outta here". But I am upon to suggestions if people thing the chameleon would be better, would need a new tag line though I think.

I think the video needs to be short, between 3-5 mins to keep interest in watching it all and I'd rather cover 1 animal completely than try cover 2-3 in less detail.


----------



## **starry11**

That's a great idea. I might be wrong but are some species of chameleon not nearing extinction due to the habitat destruction on Madagascar? So you could still do "Im a chameleon and the APA want me out of here" if you liked. It might hit people better if they see the chameleons well suited in captivity seen as that's what species the APA has targeted most.



TAL said:


> A thought occures to me.
> 
> Youtube usually allows people to upload a counter argument video (not sure it will allow this for a "channel" but its worth a try).
> 
> I was thinking of putting something up along the lines of "I'm a crested gecko and the APA want me outta here"
> 
> Basically pointing out that Reptile Keeping is useful in stopping animals becomeing extinct. I'm happy to mesh together a video (IT is my thing) but I'd need some videos of healthy well look after cresties that I can talk over.
> 
> Ideally geckos in their habitat, I could use the odd 1-2 being handled but generally want to show that they are kept in good conditions.
> 
> Also, because I'm about to go to work and our internet access in monitored, could someone draw together as many statistics about cresties as they can, I could find all this myself, but that'll slow the whole process down and the quicker this gets uploaded the better. Would need to know how many are thought to be in the wild (if any), when they were thought to be extinct/on the verge of extinct, how many are now kept in captivity, any other useful info.
> 
> If any has/can make any suitable videos pm me and I'll give you my email address to send them to.
> 
> **EDIT**
> 
> Just checked and you can do a video upload, so if anyone can help I can hopefully have something up by tomorrow morning


----------



## TAL

But then would it be a case of Reptile keepers saving the animal from extinction? 

It's great (in the context of my video, not actually great) to be able to say "This chameleon is going extinct" but if you can't then say "except for the hard work of reptile keepers" then the video would mean nothing.

As I said I am open to suggestions, and if anyone has an endangeoured chameleon as a pet then that really would be useful and I can work solely on that one.

I want to make sure that the APA can't come back on this at all. He who talks last tends to be the one remembered.


----------



## Chris Newman

TAL said:


> Thanks Chris,
> 
> I'm a bit late to the whole protest thing but want to do my part too.
> 
> I could do this on Chameleons, but chose the crestie specifically because it works well with the tag line "I'm a xxxx and the APA want me outta here". But I am upon to suggestions if people thing the chameleon would be better, would need a new tag line though I think.
> 
> I think the video needs to be short, between 3-5 mins to keep interest in watching it all and I'd rather cover 1 animal completely than try cover 2-3 in less detail.


Hang your jacket over their and welcome to the fight… 

It is absolutely not my intention take over your project, the crested gecko is a great idea. Below is a bit I did a while back on the issue:


*Captivity as an Aid to 
Conservation*

n Captive populations can provide a vital reservoir - insurance against wild population crashes 

n Until 1994 the crested gecko, _Rhacodactylus ciliatus_, was thought to be extinct 

_n _*In 2004 the crested gecko was the 5th most commonly bred lizard in captivity -* _tens of thousands of them are now bred annually_


----------



## Chris Newman

**starry11** said:


> That's a great idea. I might be wrong but are some species of chameleon not nearing extinction due to the habitat destruction on Madagascar? So you could still do "Im a chameleon and the APA want me out of here" if you liked. It might hit people better if they see the chameleons well suited in captivity seen as that's what species the APA has targeted most.


This is quite true, which is why captive breeding projects of Malagasy chameleons is so important. The other issue is the veiled chameleon as featured in their campaign. A 100% of all veiled chameleon are bred in captivity, probably more veiled chameleon are kept in the UK than exist in the wild, thus protecting this glorious creature from extinction.


----------



## reptile_man_08

That's the sort of idea I thought the YouTube - UKReptileCommunity's Channel channel I made could be used for...I'm not trying to grab attention here, but if all counter videos came out of the same channel it would make things seems much more organized, and would eventually gain more attention than multiple different channels fighting for the same cause.
I was going to make some videos showing there lies and propaganda, but the monitor on my usual computer broke, and my brother has restricted his (which I am on now) so that I can't download anything.:bash:
The counter argument video which you say is I believe a 'response' video, but unless previously un-ticked in their settings, they have to approve the video to be shown.
Similarly tagged videos would show up in the side bar as 'related videos' however.


----------



## reptile_man_08

Chris Newman said:


> Hang your jacket over their and welcome to the fight…
> 
> It is absolutely not my intention take over your project, the crested gecko is a great idea. Below is a bit I did a while back on the issue:
> 
> 
> *Captivity as an Aid to
> Conservation*
> 
> n Captive populations can provide a vital reservoir - insurance against wild population crashes
> 
> n Until 1994 the crested gecko, _Rhacodactylus ciliatus_, was thought to be extinct
> 
> _n _*In 2004 the crested gecko was the 5th most commonly bred lizard in captivity -* _tens of thousands of them are now bred annually_


I could easily see them coming back with something like : "the catching of wild caught species made them almost extinct in the first place", so a mentioning reasons why they declined in the wild might be worth it.


----------



## Sephiroth

reptile_man_08 said:


> I could easily see them coming back with something like : "the catching of wild caught species made them almost extinct in the first place", so a mentioning reasons why they declined in the wild might be worth it.


According to all knowing wiki (though referenced from this book The Herpetofauna of New Caledonia (Contributions to herpetology)) the crested gecko's biggest threat is the fire ants that were introduced to new caledonia.

Crested Gecko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## **starry11**

The annoying thing is they haven't responded to a single comment on either of the videos leaving it very one sided. I'm reckoning they are just going to sit back until the end of the month when the campaign is over and they've made their money. Unfortunately I feel that in defending our side we are just giving them free advertising. 
On another note is Lush making money from this? Or is it just a cheap publicity stunt to draw in more customers? Kinda makes me wonder if it is all legit going through the books or does Elaine and Lush have a private deal going on :yeahright:


----------



## reptile_man_08

That's great, I guess that can be included in the video then:2thumb:...Facts from reliable sources/scientific studies, such as that book, will hold much more weight than their accusations of us being the equivalent to child abusers:lol2:.


----------



## Chris Newman

**starry11** said:


> The annoying thing is they haven't responded to a single comment on either of the videos leaving it very one sided. I'm reckoning they are just going to sit back until the end of the month when the campaign is over and they've made their money. Unfortunately I feel that in defending our side we are just giving them free advertising.
> On another note is Lush making money from this? Or is it just a cheap publicity stunt to draw in more customers? Kinda makes me wonder if it is all legit going through the books or does Elaine and Lush have a private deal going on :yeahright:


They won’t, they can’t, I have absolutely know doubt they are now fully aware that the campaign they are sponsoring is unethical, but they can hardly now change their stance – can they!! Publicity works both ways, whilst lush have spectacularly shot themselves in the foot my by alienating a significant number of their own customs, rather dumb, but their own doing. They have also raised interest in chameleons as pets, many pet shops are reporting a recent upsurge in customers enquiries about chameleons. However, this should not detract efforts to correct the misinformation spread by APA/Lush – just call it poetic justice!!


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Chris Newman said:


> They won’t, they can’t, I have absolutely know doubt they are now fully aware that the campaign they are sponsoring is unethical, but they can hardly now change their stance – can they!! Publicity works both ways, whilst lush have spectacularly shot themselves in the foot my by alienating a significant number of their own customs, rather dumb, but their own doing. They have also raised interest in chameleons as pets, many pet shops are reporting a recent upsurge in customers enquiries about chameleons. However, this should not detract efforts to correct the misinformation spread by APA/Lush – just call it poetic justice!!


Yeah... I guess it's too late for them to say "oh, wait, these APA people may be wrong..." now they've already put it out there... 

I found it brilliantly funny... a week or so ago we got a veiled chameleon! (Oh, and he's CB, 13 months old, and is doing great, no matter what the APA have to say to the contrary) :lol2: 
Their really, really not as difficult to keep as their made out to be


----------



## TAL

OK, here is what I plan to say on the video. Any input would be much appreciated.

Let me introduce you to the crested gecko. These wonderful animals have been brought back from the verge of extinction by the hard work of reptile keepers and reptile breeder all over the world.

Thought to be extinct until 1994 the Crested gecko is now the one of the most widely kept reptiles in the UK.

When the crested Geckos natural habitat came under attack from fire ants (flash up the reference The Herpetofauna of New Caledonia (Contributions to herpetology)) at this point) they quickly started to die off, indeed they were actually believed to be extinct for many years before being rediscovered in 1994, it is only through the hard work and dedication of reptile keepers that these animals are now not only saved from extinction, but are infact thriving in captivity.

(Short interlude here simply showing photos and videos of crested geckos)

As you can see from these photos and videos the crested gecko does extremely well in captivity, and they interact with humans in much the same way that a canine or feline would. The APA and Lush would have you believe that the keeping of these animals is cruel, but infact if it wasn’t for the exotic pet trade these amazing animals would no longer exist.

The number of these animals in the wild is still low, this is not due to the Exotic Pet trade, the vast majority/All (if someone can get official figure on this that’d be great) of crested geckos sold in the UK and Europe are captive breed. No, the true threat to the crested gecko is their natural habitat where they are being killed off my other animals that see them as food or a threat. The APA and Lush would see this animal once again brought to the verge of extinction simply because they do not like the idea of reptiles as pets.

(short interlude again to allow this to sink in)

You may be wondering about the videos and photos I have provided on this video, as compared to the APA video given of reptiles in captivity (input a short clip of the video the APA has showing breeders fair). Though it is true that at breeders fair, where despite the APAs claims most animals are captive breed, the animals are kept in conditions that are unsuitable for the long term health of the animal, all the basic needs of the animal are catered for. These tubs are the equivalent of a cat or dog cage, you wouldn’t keep a cat or dog in the cage forever but it does the animal no harm to be kept in the cage whilst it is in transport to your home after you buy it.

As a final point to the APAs outrageous claims that breeders fairs are illegal I would like to point out the Animal welfare act 2004 which clearly states that breeders fairs are allowed for breeders to sell off excess stock. (during this part I’ll put up the exact wording of the act – fairly sure it’s the animal welfare act but I’ll confirm this before I do the actual video.)http://www.books-by-isbn.com/0-9169...ntributions-to-herpetology-0-916984-55-9.htmlhttp://www.books-by-isbn.com/0-9169...ntributions-to-herpetology-0-916984-55-9.htmlhttp://www.books-by-isbn.com/0-9169...ntributions-to-herpetology-0-916984-55-9.html


Still in desperate need of videos of cresties. Photos will do too if need be, you can email these to [email protected] and I'll work my magic on them.

May do another video on Chameleons too, but for now want to get this one out and then work on another.


----------



## Sephiroth

That sounds great Tal 

Just a bit of advice to who ever uploads it: I like the title "I'm a chameleon they want me out of here" or something similar, and it is fine to use that title WITHIN the video, though if you want the video to definitely show up in the related videos (and google search results), it would be a good idea to have the video title very similar to "Lush Chameleon Campaign" or at least have that in the youtube title and description of the video... More people are likely to come across it this way as well.

notice this thread is number one in google for Lush Chameleon Campaign


----------



## reptile_man_08

If you would send the completed script and all instructions I could make the video and upload it to ukreptilecommunity, as I already have the programs to do it.: victory:


----------



## adam_jones

i love the thought that some where in the uk right now there are some lush excutives who have realised that this campaign has actually done there company more harm than good :lol2: 
guys i love the video idea and cant wait to see the finnished product :2thumb:


----------



## Sephiroth

> No, the true threat to the crested gecko is their natural habitat where they are being killed off my other animals that see them as food or a threat.


ps. It isn't their natural habitat that's the problem since the fire ants aren't native the caledonia... they were introduced some time around the 70s presumably by the great hairless monkey... could call it a form of habitat destruction...

http://horizon.documentation.ird.fr/exl-doc/pleins_textes/pleins_textes_5/b_fdi_08-09/09850.pdf


----------



## TAL

True, but it is the Crested Geckos natural habitat so not really wrong, just that something not noramlly there has been introduced.

Maybe "naturally occuring destruction of their habitat". Habitat destruction most people will associate with Humans, which they then will take as proof of the APAs claim (even though their argument has nothing to do with habitat destruction).


----------



## Ssthisto

TAL said:


> True, but it is the Crested Geckos natural habitat so not really wrong, just that something not noramlly there has been introduced.
> 
> Maybe "naturally occuring destruction of their habitat". Habitat destruction most people will associate with Humans, which they then will take as proof of the APAs claim (even though their argument has nothing to do with habitat destruction).


There's nothing wrong with saying that it's human intervention that has caused the habitat destruction - and that it would be very difficult for humans to FIX the problem in the animals' natural habitat (i.e. getting rid of the fire ants) so therefore the preservation of the species in captivity is the *best* solution.


----------



## Chris Newman

TAL said:


> OK, here is what I plan to say on the video. Any input would be much appreciated.
> 
> Let me introduce you to the crested gecko. These wonderful animals have been brought back from the verge of extinction by the hard work of reptile keepers and reptile breeder all over the world.
> 
> Thought to be extinct until 1994 the Crested gecko is now the one of the most widely kept reptiles in the UK.
> 
> When the crested Geckos natural habitat came under attack from fire ants (flash up the reference The Herpetofauna of New Caledonia (Contributions to herpetology)) at this point) they quickly started to die off, indeed they were actually believed to be extinct for many years before being rediscovered in 1994, it is only through the hard work and dedication of reptile keepers that these animals are now not only saved from extinction, but are infact thriving in captivity.
> 
> (Short interlude here simply showing photos and videos of crested geckos)
> 
> As you can see from these photos and videos the crested gecko does extremely well in captivity, and they interact with humans in much the same way that a canine or feline would. The APA and Lush would have you believe that the keeping of these animals is cruel, but infact if it wasn’t for the exotic pet trade these amazing animals would no longer exist.
> 
> The number of these animals in the wild is still low, this is not due to the Exotic Pet trade, the vast majority/All (if someone can get official figure on this that’d be great) of crested geckos sold in the UK and Europe are captive breed. No, the true threat to the crested gecko is their natural habitat where they are being killed off my other animals that see them as food or a threat. The APA and Lush would see this animal once again brought to the verge of extinction simply because they do not like the idea of reptiles as pets.
> 
> (short interlude again to allow this to sink in)
> 
> You may be wondering about the videos and photos I have provided on this video, as compared to the APA video given of reptiles in captivity (input a short clip of the video the APA has showing breeders fair). Though it is true that at breeders fair, where despite the APAs claims most animals are captive breed, the animals are kept in conditions that are unsuitable for the long term health of the animal, all the basic needs of the animal are catered for. These tubs are the equivalent of a cat or dog cage, you wouldn’t keep a cat or dog in the cage forever but it does the animal no harm to be kept in the cage whilst it is in transport to your home after you buy it.
> 
> As a final point to the APAs outrageous claims that breeders fairs are illegal I would like to point out the Animal welfare act 2004 which clearly states that breeders fairs are allowed for breeders to sell off excess stock. (during this part I’ll put up the exact wording of the act – fairly sure it’s the animal welfare act but I’ll confirm this before I do the actual video.)
> 
> 
> Still in desperate need of videos of cresties. Photos will do too if need be, you can email these to [email protected] and I'll work my magic on them.
> 
> May do another video on Chameleons too, but for now want to get this one out and then work on another.


Excellent stuff, I would also suggest including this as CAWC is a highly respected scientific body which is a formal advisor to government:


Companion Animal Welfare Council [CAWC] - REPORT ON THE WELFARE OF NON-DOMESTICATED ANIMALS KEPT FOR COMPANIONSHIP (June 2003)

“it may be easier to keep some non-domesticated species to high welfare standards than some that are domesticated. Thus, meeting all the requirements - space, dietary, social, thermal, and so on - of a small, hardy, reptile may be more readily achievable for many people than adequately fulfilling all the needs of some breeds of dog”


----------



## lionfish

I just found an interview with Elaine Toland from a magazine piece dated 12th August ....you're not going to like this Quote ....

_"Life for many captive reptiles is unimaginable. In terms of their need for sufficient space and a varied diet it is akin to spending the rest of your life in a toilet cubicle and having the same meal, every mealtime, pushed under the door. _

_"Given the complex biological needs of these animals, life for the average pet reptile is most probably far worse than this,"_ said *Elaine Toland* from the APA. 

The whole piece can be found here Brighton Magazine - Human Chameleon Caged On Brighton High Street In Protest Over Reptile Pets

There's a quote from a Lush Employee Called Leonie as well .

_"The trade in reptiles is clearly out of control and countless animals are living short, miserable lives as a result. _

_"We hope that by raising the profile of this important issue through our network of stores we can lessen the demand for reptiles as pets,"_ said *Leonie Davies,* Lush"s Campaigns Manager.


----------



## Chris Newman

lionfish said:


> I just found an interview with Elaine Toland from a magazine piece dated 12th August ....you're not going to like this Quote ....
> 
> _"Life for many captive reptiles is unimaginable. In terms of their need for sufficient space and a varied diet it is akin to spending the rest of your life in a toilet cubicle and having the same meal, every mealtime, pushed under the door. _
> 
> _"Given the complex biological needs of these animals, life for the average pet reptile is most probably far worse than this,"_ said *Elaine Toland* from the APA.
> 
> The whole piece can be found here Brighton Magazine - Human Chameleon Caged On Brighton High Street In Protest Over Reptile Pets
> 
> There's a quote from a Lush Employee Called Leonie as well .
> 
> _"The trade in reptiles is clearly out of control and countless animals are living short, miserable lives as a result. _
> 
> _"We hope that by raising the profile of this important issue through our network of stores we can lessen the demand for reptiles as pets,"_ said *Leonie Davies,* Lush"s Campaigns Manager.


So, we have a person Elaine Toland of the APA with no scientific credentials, and clearly no knowledge of reptiles stating:

_"Life for many captive reptiles is unimaginable. In terms of their need for sufficient space and a varied diet it is akin to spending the rest of your life in a toilet cubicle and having the same meal, every mealtime, pushed under the door” Given the complex biological needs of these animals, life for the average pet reptile is most probably far worse than this,"_ 

And then we have the Companion Animal Welfare Council with some of the countries leading academics and vets saying:

_“it may be easier to keep some non-domesticated species to high welfare standards than some that are domesticated. Thus, meeting all the requirements - space, dietary, social, thermal, and so on - of a small, hardy, reptile may be more readily achievable for many people than adequately fulfilling all the needs of some breeds of dog”_

Now, I wonder which is right!!


----------



## Sephiroth

What I'm saying is the crested geckos natural habitat is not the threat. We want to preserve the natural habitat, so it would seem a bit crazy if the natural habitat is what's killing them off :crazy:

The fire ant infestation is the threat and is exactly the same thing as the cane toads in Australia (though to be fair, pretty sure the ants were an accident). They are something unnatural that has been introduced by man into the habitat. 

As Ssthisto says, it is akin to habitat destruction.


----------



## TAL

OK, I'll have to think in a little more detail how to say that then. What I was trying to get across is that in the wild they were/are dieing out, but I'm trying to word it in sure a way that it doesn't seem like human fault because if humans are involved then people will see that as us being to blame as we keep them as pets - I know that in reality the two things are very different but many people will, I believe, see it that way.

The wording I had was just something I knocked up in spare minutes at work so now that I have some suggestions and advise, and free time, I'll reword it and see if I can make it better.

Watch this space....


----------



## ninjasmum

slightly interesting piece of gossip if anyone interested - I bumped into an old friend I havnt seen for long time today - who now works for lush. She started telling me all about how they are helping the chameleons (she did not know I have one) and about how irresponsible, cruel, heartless and thoughtless any one who owns reptiles is* and about how they plan on getting our pleasure banned if possible, anyone noticed just how much fun it is to really put someone in their place. She went off with an entirely new perspective saying that she is going to tell all her workmates about the misinformation her company are banding about. *

My big mouth strikes again!!!!!


----------



## **starry11**

Interesting indeed, it's a shame more people don't have a bit of free thinking about them instead of believing everything they are told. At least your friend went away with the truth and the people she speaks with will be enlightened on the matter.


----------



## Roseanna

ninjasmum said:


> slightly interesting piece of gossip if anyone interested - I bumped into an old friend I havnt seen for long time today - who now works for lush. She started telling me all about how they are helping the chameleons (she did not know I have one) and about how irresponsible, cruel, heartless and thoughtless any one who owns reptiles is* and about how they plan on getting our pleasure banned if possible, anyone noticed just how much fun it is to really put someone in their place. She went off with an entirely new perspective saying that she is going to tell all her workmates about the misinformation her company are banding about. *
> 
> My big mouth strikes again!!!!!


 Interesting, must have felt good to give her the right info! etleest she was open minded enough to listen to you and take it all in : victory:


----------



## tomswel1

i sent an email to apa inviting them to join a debate on this forum, as yet had no reply, will let you know if i get one. i feel if they are sure of their campaign it wouldn't be a problem????????????


----------



## tomswel1

i've emailed APA and invited them to debate their points on this forum, as yet had no reply so will let you know if i get one. I'm thinking if they feel so sure of their convictions it wouldn't be a problem?????????? ignore the repeat message i've not lost my memory it show as sent so didn't think i'd sent it


----------



## Natrix

tomswel1 said:


> i sent an email to apa inviting them to join a debate on this forum, as yet had no reply, will let you know if i get one. i feel if they are sure of their campaign it wouldn't be a problem????????????


PMSL

If Elaine turns up on here to stand by her lies I'll complement Chris Newman on his taste in shirts and donate a tenner to the RSPCA.

Gordon Glasson

FBH VC


----------



## Ssthisto

tomswel1 said:


> i sent an email to apa inviting them to join a debate on this forum, as yet had no reply, will let you know if i get one. i feel if they are sure of their campaign it wouldn't be a problem????????????


Oh, they may be WATCHING this forum - and even reading this post - but unless there's media attention, you're unlikely to get anyone who's in position to change APA policy entering into any kind of sensible debate.

Natrix, Chris, am I right in thinking that Elaine Toland has a standing invitation to attend the IHS shows if she does so openly and introduces herself at the door?


----------



## Chris Newman

You can rest assured that Elaine and her followers will be watching this thread, but will not join the debate, the one thing that Elaine cannot do is debate – she is completely hopeless. She is very good at preaching her misinformation to the uniformed, but entering a debate with people who actually know something about the subject – no…. not in a million years. 

We are both members of the Associated Parliamentary Group for Animal Welfare [APGAW]. It meets in the Houses of Parliament to debate animal welfare issues, some years ago the issues of shows was a hot topic, Elaine and I were supposed to debate the issue, i.e. Elaine would have fifteen minuets or so to outline why shows are illegal and cruel, I would then have the opportunity to counter this. Did Elaine show up – no, she ran away and refused to debate the issue!!

If Elaine actually believed her argument that keeping reptiles is cruel, shows are illegal, etc, etc, then she should be prepared to stand up and debate the issues in person, that fact she is not speaks volumes…… I would suggest she knows full well she is peddling a pack of lies, but its good business and she is making lots of money so why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs by entering a debate that you can’t win – that is the bottom-line.


----------



## Chris Newman

Ssthisto said:


> Natrix, Chris, am I right in thinking that Elaine Toland has a standing invitation to attend the IHS shows if she does so openly and introduces herself at the door?


Indeed, I have been regularly inviting her to attend for years and years, she never has the courtesy to reply. I wrote and invited her to attend the Kempton Park show, but she didn’t reply. Most amusing off all is this in the local paper:

Wildlife group threatens to sue Kempton Park Aug 
24 2010 By Hilary Gavin,
Staines News 

WILDLIFE protection group is threatening to sue Kempton Park Racecourse for allowing sales of reptiles that it claims are illegal.

The Animal Protection Agency (APA) says it has enough evidence to prosecute the racecourse and individual stallholders.

And it accuses Spelthorne Council of being naive by misinterpreting the law and letting a Reptile Expo go ahead.

http://www.stainesnews.co.uk/staines-and-ashford-news/news-staines-and-ashford/2010/08/24/wildlife-group-threatens-to-sue-kempton-park-54472-27135018/


----------



## Sephiroth

I'm no lawyer, but for Elaine to sue, wouldn't she have to be the plaintiff? (ie. the victim)


----------



## Sephiroth

oh! Just found this! At least one journalist saw through the propaganda!

Learning about keeping reptiles (From Swindon Advertiser)


----------



## fishboy

Sephiroth said:


> oh! Just found this! At least one journalist saw through the propaganda!
> 
> Learning about keeping reptiles (From Swindon Advertiser)



"Thomas Reynolds, whose lizards and snakes have large enclosures with natural features, a garden run....."


His snakes have a garden run? :gasp: :lol2:


----------



## Sephiroth

fishboy said:


> "Thomas Reynolds, whose lizards and snakes have large enclosures with natural features, a garden run....."
> 
> 
> His snakes have a garden run? :gasp: :lol2:


in the trade, we call them garden slithers  hee hee

though in seriousness it could be for tortoises or larger lizards on sunny days...


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Seen this one? 

Reptile Rescue | Reptile Zones UK - The UK Reptile Directory


----------



## lil_me

:gasp: Ok who has been swapping my reptiles. Woody is 11 years old, but if they only live for a year someone must be swapping him 


:whistling2: On a more serious note 



Something needs doing about the 'must breed' culture occuring with reps especially when in breeding and over breeding
Something needs doing about reps which are treated badly or sold on to those who don't have a clue what they are doing

But the same thing applies to ALL animals!!!! FFS there are kids going through 4 hamsters a month! There does seem to be excessive amounts of reptiles being bred but as long as they are all getting homes it's better than dogs/cats. Maybe they should introduce a breeding licence? Unsure really. Cats, dogs, bunnies etc can be neutered I suppose which I've not known be done with a reptile. 

My belle is about the same size as a hamster plus her tail. Her tank is at least 5 times the size they would sell you with a hamster! Toilet my bot, she's got a bloomin palace! Also nothing wrong with garden pens for the lizards, Woody has been in the old bunny run many times quite enjoys it. Snake runs.....well without feet that might be a bit tricky.

I don't know everything about my reptiles, but if I am in doubt I will ask (hence my post about beardie becoming nocturnal) either someone who might know or local herp specialists or the vet. Same applies with my pooch.

As for getting comments from organisations like that, when pond life grew legs and climbed trees to shout their stories from, noone explained they may need to give valid reasons for their outbursts from the trees they hugged. They can only preech to those who have no idea what they are saying.


Has anyone looked for the accounts for APA Limited as a business. I just popped onto a domain search and this is who came up as registered with for the website. 

Registrant:
Thomas Greg Martin

Registrant type:
UK Individual

Registrant's address:
APA
Brighton Media Centre
68 Middle Street
Brighton
East Sussex
BN1 1AL
United Kingdom


----------



## bobby

lil_me said:


> :gasp: Ok who has been swapping my reptiles. Woody is 11 years old, but if they only live for a year someone must be swapping him
> 
> 
> :whistling2: On a more serious note
> 
> 
> 
> Something needs doing about the 'must breed' culture occuring with reps especially when in breeding and over breeding
> Something needs doing about reps which are treated badly or sold on to those who don't have a clue what they are doing
> 
> But the same thing applies to ALL animals!!!! FFS there are kids going through 4 hamsters a month! There does seem to be excessive amounts of reptiles being bred but as long as they are all getting homes it's better than dogs/cats. Maybe they should introduce a breeding licence? Unsure really. Cats, dogs, bunnies etc can be neutered I suppose which I've not known be done with a reptile.
> 
> My belle is about the same size as a hamster plus her tail. Her tank is at least 5 times the size they would sell you with a hamster! Toilet my bot, she's got a bloomin palace! Also nothing wrong with garden pens for the lizards, Woody has been in the old bunny run many times quite enjoys it. Snake runs.....well without feet that might be a bit tricky.
> 
> I don't know everything about my reptiles, but if I am in doubt I will ask (hence my post about beardie becoming nocturnal) either someone who might know or local herp specialists or the vet. Same applies with my pooch.
> 
> As for getting comments from organisations like that, when pond life grew legs and climbed trees to shout their stories from, noone explained they may need to give valid reasons for their outbursts from the trees they hugged. They can only preech to those who have no idea what they are saying.
> 
> 
> Has anyone looked for the accounts for APA Limited as a business. I just popped onto a domain search and this is who came up as registered with for the website.
> 
> Registrant:
> Thomas Greg Martin
> 
> Registrant type:
> UK Individual
> 
> *Registrant's address:
> APA
> Brighton Media Centre
> 68 Middle Street
> Brighton
> East Sussex
> BN1 1AL
> United Kingdom*


ahahaha

Awesome


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Lil_me... That' exactly what we;ve been saying  

I like your points about the hobby though, both things which could be addressed. 

I aim to breed *some* of mine, but only one or 2, and see what your saying... corns and beardies are a prime example I think? 

Nice work finding that address 

Think we should all spam them with posted truth about reptiles fliers or some such :whistling2:

:lol2:


----------



## bobby

We could always just start crapping in envelopes?


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

bobby said:


> We could always just start crapping in envelopes?


That might work too :lol2::lol2:


----------



## bobby

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> That might work too :lol2::lol2:




I'll go get my stamps...


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

bobby said:


> I'll go get my stamps...


 

And I'll start brewing something to fill the envelopes with...


----------



## Zak

APA info, because they're registered as a limited company. WebCHeck - Select and Access Company Information
£1 per article ordered.


----------



## lil_me

Zak I was just looking through that

According to those records 'Elaine Toland' is just a secretary and the Thomas Greg Martin (likes his full title doesn't he!) is director.....

Yes beardies are a good example, when we got ours Iguanas were fashionable - until they got too big and people started keeping them in a locked room without feeding them! Oh we seen some horror stories but anyway, we paid £150 for our bearded dragon and he's a lovely natural grey colour! No inbreeding and has lived to 11 years old so far. Something does need doing to keep this hobby from becoming a cruelty case, but how to is the other matter. While there is demand there will be people trying to breed them. We don't breed. Don't want to. They are my babies.


----------



## Zak

lil_me said:


> Zak I was just looking through that
> 
> According to those records 'Elaine Toland' is just a secretary and the Thomas Greg Martin (likes his full title doesn't he!) is director.....


Can put what they what. From what i gather the website is registered in Mr Martins name and Elaine is the public front irregardless of their titles on the committee. Id love to see a copy of their constitution.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

lil_me said:


> Zak I was just looking through that
> 
> According to those records 'Elaine Toland' is just a secretary and the Thomas Greg Martin (likes his full title doesn't he!) is director.....
> 
> Yes beardies are a good example, when we got ours Iguanas were fashionable - until they got too big and people started keeping them in a locked room without feeding them! Oh we seen some horror stories but anyway, we paid £150 for our bearded dragon and he's a lovely natural grey colour! No inbreeding and has lived to 11 years old so far. Something does need doing to keep this hobby from becoming a cruelty case, but how to is the other matter. While there is demand there will be people trying to breed them. We don't breed. Don't want to. They are my babies.


I'd be interested to see some of those records... 

Yeah, iguana's seem to be one of those few that crop up as anti ammo... 
Exactly, it's the how part. 
I don't have a problem with responsible breeding of course, but it does seem to get carried away sometimes. I mean, I want to breed my horned lizard, but only because their so uncommon CB and their such nice lizards. And I'm going the whole hog in getting a new set up ready before I try for it. huge, heavily planted fancy viv. I'll probably lose money in the long run, but meh. 
I've considered breeding my beardie... but would only offer him a nice girl if she was a very nice morph, a red or something. 
I guess my view is simply that people should be more responsible and not be after the money, I only breed anything for the pleasure of breeding. 
And of course put the animals welfare first. 
: victory:


----------



## Zak

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> I'd be interested to see some of those records...


There to purchase, £1 a document if i remember correctly.


----------



## lil_me

Charity overview 

The objectives, trustees, contact details etc are all listed on the charity commission site for the trust. Income is just under £10k, handy :bash:

Just been chatting to an educated friend who has links with the green party who suggested 'hippies who can't be bothered to work set up such organisations'


----------



## Peacemaker1987

Hey, i want to listen to the radio show with the debate, but its not up on iplayer now...anyone know how i can get it?


----------



## Rum_Kitty

Was someone going to post a response to Lush's Youtube video? If its up does anyone have a link?


----------



## Natrix

As a lot of you seem to be interested in the APA stuff at the moment I thought I should post up these photo’s again.
Basically last year at the Shenfield show we had four people wondering around asking silly questions (like is that Albino royal wild caught), picking up peoples contact cards and in one case appearing to be trying to film everything that was happening with a hand bag (Honest). 
Anyway our 007 agent was better than theirs and got pictures of all the people concerned.
Now what we want to know is can anyone say they know any of these people. Are you the Harold Bishop look a like? Does your mum really look that happy when hanging around a reptile show or did you really think it was sensible to wear a thick jumper on the hottest day of the year while attending a reptile show with your ginger girl friend. (Look at him sweat LOL)
Basically their behaviour suggested they weren’t reptile keepers and Ms Toland told the papers she had four people at the event. Can any of you rule any of these people out or have we actually got pictures of Ms Tolands buddies? 

Gordon


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

1 looks like he's made the camera man... and 2 looks pure evil.


----------



## **starry11**

that's got to be four of the most miserable looking people Iv'e ever seen, some damn handy spy work going on though.. haha.


----------



## naz_pixie

right i have a fever nd the ickkky so excuse any crazy rambling..

but what exactly is going on, i think im not quite up todate, last i heard we "won" the fight with lush and they dropped tehre connection with the APA?

but all the links and info and campaign is still on there site in the charities section.
A Far Cry from Nature

APA are still going to be one of lush's long term charities, receaving profits for selected products or events.. and they are still selling there chameleon bath bombs in most stores.. and teh profits are still going to the APA?

so we won what exactly? okay so they eventualy took don some literature? but surely we won nothing unless they remove all info and links and cut all support with the APA and publish an apology for teh lies they were supporting?

again if i got anything wrong, im currently a million degrees qand halucinating slightly lol!

im a bit confused though because they are still supporting the APA, yet we seem to think its over?


----------



## Webleybulldog455

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> ... and 2 looks pure evil.


Ha she looks like a female serial killer :lol2: the "black widow"


----------



## Ssthisto

naz_pixie said:


> right i have a fever nd the ickkky so excuse any crazy rambling..
> 
> but what exactly is going on, i think im not quite up todate, last i heard we "won" the fight with lush and they dropped tehre connection with the APA?


No, we didn't "win" in that sense. What we did was get our side presented by nationally-accepted media using scientifically backed arguments.

But the promotion Lush was having ran for its apparently scheduled time and then stopped, on schedule.


----------



## Pete Q

Ssthisto said:


> No, we didn't "win" in that sense. What we did was get our side presented by nationally-accepted media using scientifically backed arguments.
> 
> But the promotion Lush was having ran for its apparently scheduled time and then stopped, on schedule.


True, we won nothing but the hearts and minds on this forum.
After a few people reported lush had backed down, I went to my local store and it was all there still.


----------



## xautomaticflowersx

I haven't read all the way through this thread, so I'm not sure if somebody else has posted something similar. However, a couple of weeks ago I began a formal complaint with the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) against Lush's Chameleon Bath Ballistic and the APA leaflets that Lush were handing out in stores.
So I posted a copy of the 'Lush Times' with the Chameleon Bath Ballistic advert in it (complete with the copied and pasted false APA propaganda in the advert) and an anti-exotics APA propaganda leaflet that was being handed out in a Lush store.
The people at the ASA have been really helpful and easy to deal with, so there is really no excuse other than laziness for not complaining. This morning I received two letters from the ASA regarding individually the Chameleon Bath Ballistic campaign and the APA leaflet handed out in store.
They read as follows...




> Dear Ms Haines,
> 
> *Your Complaint - Lush Chameleon Bath Ballistic*
> 
> We have considered your complaint and we will take it up with the advertisers.
> 
> We intend to deal with your complaint under our formal investigations procedure, which means we will ask Lush Retail Limited to comment on the complaint and send evidence to support the claims. We will then draft a recommendation and refer your complaint to the ASA Council for adjudication. You will have an opportunity to comment on the recommendation before it is considered by the Council. Once the Council has made a decision, the adjudication will be published on our website.
> 
> If Lush Retail Limited respond to your complaint by offering to change the advertising in a way that resolves your concerns, we may close the case without referring it to Council or publishing an adjudication. This has the advantage of resolving your complaint more quickly. However we resolve your complaint, we will let you know the outcome.
> 
> We are also looking at issues with the advertising by the Animal Protection Agency. You will be contacted about this case separately.


 
I'm not sure how this one will turn out, since I've heard that Lush's Chameleon Campaign has "run it's course" and therefore would no longer be publicly advertised?

The next letter is basically the same as the first but I will type it out anyway...



> Dear Ms Haines
> 
> *Your complaint - APA leaflet*
> 
> We have considered your complaint and we will take it up with the advertisers.
> 
> We intend to deal with your complaint under our formal investigations procedure, which means that we will ask the Animal Protection Agency to comment on the complaint and send evidence to support the claims. We will then draft a recommendation and refer your complaint to the ASA Council for adjudication. You will have an opportunity to comment on the recommendation before it is considered by the Council. Once the Council has made a decision, the adjudication will be published on our website.
> 
> If Animal Protection Agency respond to your compaint by offering to change the advertising in a way that resolves your concerns, we may close the case without referring it to Council or publishing an adjudication. This has the advantage of resolving your complaint more quickly. However we resolve your complaint, we will let you know the outcome.
> 
> We are also looking at the claims by Lush Retail Limited. You will be contacted about this case separately.


I'm pleased that they are dealing with each issue as a separate case. I look forward to seeing how this turns out. Either way I may have to get in touch with Chris Newman for more details on the studies and statistics that disprove the claims made by Lush and the APA, so that if I get the opportunity to respond to their 'evidence' I can effectively counter it with my own.


: victory:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

xautomaticflowersx said:


> I haven't read all the way through this thread, so I'm not sure if somebody else has posted something similar. However, a couple of weeks ago I began a formal complaint with the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) against Lush's Chameleon Bath Ballistic and the APA leaflets that Lush were handing out in stores.
> So I posted a copy of the 'Lush Times' with the Chameleon Bath Ballistic advert in it (complete with the copied and pasted false APA propaganda in the advert) and an anti-exotics APA propaganda leaflet that was being handed out in a Lush store.
> The people at the ASA have been really helpful and easy to deal with, so there is really no excuse other than laziness for not complaining. This morning I received two letters from the ASA regarding individually the Chameleon Bath Ballistic campaign and the APA leaflet handed out in store.
> They read as follows...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how this one will turn out, since I've heard that Lush's Chameleon Campaign has "run it's course" and therefore would no longer be publicly advertised?
> 
> The next letter is basically the same as the first but I will type it out anyway...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pleased that they are dealing with each issue as a separate case. I look forward to seeing how this turns out. Either way I may have to get in touch with Chris Newman for more details on the studies and statistics that disprove the claims made by Lush and the APA, so that if I get the opportunity to respond to their 'evidence' I can effectively counter it with my own.
> 
> 
> : victory:


Epic, nice work there :no1:


----------



## Graham

This morning I received the following letter from the Advertising Standards Authority in response to my email complaint on 13th August.



> *Your complaint - Lush and APA*
> 
> Thank you for your recent communication.
> 
> We are already investigating complaints into advertising by Lush Retail Ltd and the Animal Protection Agency and your complaint will be added to our file. We shall let you know what we decide in both cases in due course.
> 
> Yours sincerely etc...


So they consider the complaints made to be serious enough to warrant investigation, that's a start and shows that Lush are already on dodgy ground at least, even if the ASA decide not to take it any further.

I doubt this will be the last time Lush get involved in some ill-advised half baked campaign, they've done it before so they have a track record of poor judgment, lets just keep an eye out for the next one and get ready to complain about that too!

BTW there may still be time to register complaints with the ASA if you haven't already done so, you can do it online and it takes just a few minutes.


----------



## Roseanna

Natrix said:


> image
> 
> As a lot of you seem to be interested in the APA stuff at the moment I thought I should post up these photo’s again.
> Basically last year at the Shenfield show we had four people wondering around asking silly questions (like is that Albino royal wild caught), picking up peoples contact cards and in one case appearing to be trying to film everything that was happening with a hand bag (Honest).
> Anyway our 007 agent was better than theirs and got pictures of all the people concerned.
> Now what we want to know is can anyone say they know any of these people. Are you the Harold Bishop look a like? Does your mum really look that happy when hanging around a reptile show or did you really think it was sensible to wear a thick jumper on the hottest day of the year while attending a reptile show with your ginger girl friend. (Look at him sweat LOL)
> Basically their behaviour suggested they weren’t reptile keepers and Ms Toland told the papers she had four people at the event. Can any of you rule any of these people out or have we actually got pictures of Ms Tolands buddies?
> 
> Gordon


 Don't mean to sound rude but...
How do you know that they weren't just asking genuine questions? lol. ok the camera in a handbag is odd to be fair, but i'd also want to know if they were wild caught lol.


----------



## Graham

I doubt there are many WC Albino Royals on the market.


----------



## Ssthisto

Roseanna said:


> Don't mean to sound rude but...
> How do you know that they weren't just asking genuine questions? lol. ok the camera in a handbag is odd to be fair, but i'd also want to know if they were wild caught lol.


If they read the IHS rules for shows, they'd know that NO wild-caught animals are to be sold, because all of the animals at the show are meant to be surplus breeding stock/offspring from the breeders exhibiting.


----------



## Sephiroth

xautomaticflowersx said:


> I haven't read all the way through this thread, so I'm not sure if somebody else has posted something similar. However, a couple of weeks ago I began a formal complaint with the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) against Lush's Chameleon Bath Ballistic and the APA leaflets that Lush were handing out in stores.
> So I posted a copy of the 'Lush Times' with the Chameleon Bath Ballistic advert in it (complete with the copied and pasted false APA propaganda in the advert) and an anti-exotics APA propaganda leaflet that was being handed out in a Lush store.
> The people at the ASA have been really helpful and easy to deal with, so there is really no excuse other than laziness for not complaining. This morning I received two letters from the ASA regarding individually the Chameleon Bath Ballistic campaign and the APA leaflet handed out in store.
> They read as follows...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how this one will turn out, since I've heard that Lush's Chameleon Campaign has "run it's course" and therefore would no longer be publicly advertised?
> 
> The next letter is basically the same as the first but I will type it out anyway...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pleased that they are dealing with each issue as a separate case. I look forward to seeing how this turns out. Either way I may have to get in touch with Chris Newman for more details on the studies and statistics that disprove the claims made by Lush and the APA, so that if I get the opportunity to respond to their 'evidence' I can effectively counter it with my own.
> 
> 
> : victory:


Got the same today :no1: so Lush *and* the APA are under investigation!


----------



## xautomaticflowersx

Sephiroth said:


> Got the same today :no1: so Lush *and* the APA are under investigation!


Looks that way. : victory:


----------



## Meko

if you both got the same it sounds more like you both got a standard reply to a complaint.


----------



## Row'n'Bud

Ssthisto said:


> If they read the IHS rules for shows, they'd know that NO wild-caught animals are to be sold, because all of the animals at the show are meant to be surplus breeding stock/offspring from the breeders exhibiting.


Don't think elaine believes that...

"The sheer volume of animals on sale at the event is inconsistent with the organisers' claims that the stallholders are private individuals selling a few of their own surplus pets."

Taken from this article....

Animal Protection Agency


----------



## xautomaticflowersx

Meko said:


> if you both got the same it sounds more like you both got a standard reply to a complaint.


Read my full post again. : victory:
If you mean there is a template for such letters then yes, you're right. There undoubtedly is a template for writing these letters, however it's not the same as an auto-reply or a 'fob off'.
Each case has a separate reference number and I've been dealing with a particular individual within the ASA. The letters came signed with full details of the complaints procedure, from the initial complaint to the formal investigation (which is the stage it's at right now) where the advertiser in question must submit evidence in writing. The ASA Executive then writes a recommendation to the ASA Council who then decides if there has been a breach of the Codes. If the Codes have been breached the ad, promotion or campaign must be changed or withdrawn. Where the complaint is 'not upheld' (no breach of Codes has been found) no further action is taken. Reviews and appeals of the adjudication can then occur etc.
So I can assure you this is being properly dealt with. An investigation of the evidence provided by both parties (the person making the complaint and the persons accused) will now take place and we'll see what happens next.


----------



## Row'n'Bud

Rum_Kitty said:


> Was someone going to post a response to Lush's Youtube video? If its up does anyone have a link?


Here ya go...

YouTube - Lush Cosmetics - APA Chameleon Campaign

see someone had a wee go at you there ssthisto, lol.....


----------



## Graham

I agree, what I received from the ASA is undoubtedly the same letter that many others will also receive, but it's not just an automated reply to fob us off and make us think they're doing something. If they received hundreds of complaints they're not going to employ someone to sit and reply to each one individually, writing a different letter to each person, they're going to use a standard template and address that to each individual.

This is very different to the replies that most of us received from Lush, which in most cases were identically worded and didn't deal with the points we raised, they were simply statements of Lush's position on reptile keeping, which we already knew of course otherwise we wouldn't have had any reason to write to them in the first place!

I find it encouraging that the ASA didn't just reject our complaints out of hand, this obviously falls within their remit and they consider it worth investigation, it would have been immidiately obvious to them if Lush had no case to answer and we would have been advised as such.


----------



## Roseanna

Ssthisto said:


> If they read the IHS rules for shows, they'd know that NO wild-caught animals are to be sold, because all of the animals at the show are meant to be surplus breeding stock/offspring from the breeders exhibiting.


 yh i guess so. but some people might not have read that. Does seem a bit suspicious though.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Row'n'Bud said:


> Here ya go...
> 
> YouTube - Lush Cosmetics - APA Chameleon Campaign
> 
> see someone had a wee go at you there ssthisto, lol.....


Because you see ssthisto, "u r a horible person" 

So therefore your argument is clearly wrong, and you should relaease all those funny colored leos into the wild where they can be picked out like sore thumbs and munched on. 
:whistling2:

Some people huh? :lol2:

Edit: I got a ASA letter too!


----------



## Ssthisto

Row'n'Bud said:


> Here ya go...
> 
> YouTube - Lush Cosmetics - APA Chameleon Campaign
> 
> see someone had a wee go at you there ssthisto, lol.....


Awww, I feel so hurt and unloved. Someone who's never been to a show, doesn't keep reptiles and believes everything they're told thinks I'm a horrible person. 

I think I'll go drown my sorrows - anyone want to join me for a diet cola?


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Ssthisto said:


> Awww, I feel so hurt and unloved. Someone who's never been to a show, doesn't keep reptiles and believes everything they're told thinks I'm a horrible person.
> 
> I think I'll go drown my sorrows - anyone want to join me for a diet cola?


Bluegh, diet. I'll take a full coke thanks


----------



## Ssthisto

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Bluegh, diet. I'll take a full coke thanks


Fair enough, full-fat for you it is. 

The ackies, tegu, retic, Dumerils and Texas rat with whom I share my front room will have water.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Yay! 

Oh, well while we're at it, I'll order up a round of locusts for the mistreated-going-to-die-in-a-year-because-it's-wild-caught captive bred 13 month old chameleon. 

What's the bill barkeep? 

Lmao xD


----------



## Row'n'Bud

PMSL.....but those lovely people at lush who make booootiful smelly, coloured soap told her so so you must be, lol :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Note no one from lush came on to defend their stance over there and only a couple of handbag swingers tried to defend them


----------



## **starry11**

yay the APA has a youtube channel too. Strange how the comments are disabled, something to hide perhaps :hmm:.I just sent them a private message telling them what I thought instead. 

YouTube - APA / LUSH Reptile Campaign


----------



## xautomaticflowersx

Graham said:


> I agree, what I received from the ASA is undoubtedly the same letter that many others will also receive, but it's not just an automated reply to fob us off and make us think they're doing something. If they received hundreds of complaints they're not going to employ someone to sit and reply to each one individually, writing a different letter to each person, they're going to use a standard template and address that to each individual.
> 
> This is very different to the replies that most of us received from Lush, which in most cases were identically worded and didn't deal with the points we raised, they were simply statements of Lush's position on reptile keeping, which we already knew of course otherwise we wouldn't have had any reason to write to them in the first place!
> 
> I find it encouraging that the ASA didn't just reject our complaints out of hand, this obviously falls within their remit and they consider it worth investigation, it would have been immidiately obvious to them if Lush had no case to answer and we would have been advised as such.


 
: victory: Absolutely. I expect that because so many people have complained they have a large main case against Lush and the APA and all those who have complained individually (and the evidence they may be asked to provide) will be referred to in said case.
I also find it greatly encouraging that the ASA are so dedicated to persuing this complaint. As you said, if they didn't feel that there was a case to answer they wouldn't be going ahead.


----------



## George_Millett

Something else to ponder on. In addition to the fines that they can levy the ASA also can demand a retraction for false advertising can't they.

Would be amusing to drop by the APA website and see a rather a large banner saying that they are wrong about exotic keepers.


----------



## TAL

Rum_Kitty said:


> Was someone going to post a response to Lush's Youtube video? If its up does anyone have a link?


That was me. I have tried 4 times to get the video posted but unfortunately I keep getting breeching Youtubes terms and conditions.

I've given up on trying to post a video now since Youtube doesn't seem to want to tell me what term I am breeching and I have run out of other ways for pointing out the Lush video is wrong.


----------



## chelz

can someone pm regarding flyers ect with a copy they are able to email me so i can print out several hundered for our local towns and villages


----------



## Ozzy1986

i have created a group on facebook regarding this issue if anyone wants to join

here is the link

Welcome to Facebook


----------



## Rum_Kitty

TAL said:


> That was me. I have tried 4 times to get the video posted but unfortunately I keep getting breeching Youtubes terms and conditions.
> 
> I've given up on trying to post a video now since Youtube doesn't seem to want to tell me what term I am breeching and I have run out of other ways for pointing out the Lush video is wrong.


That sucks! Maybe its use of a trademarked name or something. You could try removing references to Lush and just say "certain soap companies" or something. I like it how Youtube let people post videos of water snakes having their heads removed with spades yet people can't share their opinions on this...pathetic.


----------



## Sephiroth

chelz said:


> can someone pm regarding flyers ect with a copy they are able to email me so i can print out several hundered for our local towns and villages


http://www.reptilezones.co.uk/rev5.pdf : victory:


----------



## Ozzy1986

:2thumb:brill i was after this i will get some of this printed of and passed around my area thanks


----------



## Ozzy1986

could i also place a link or place the leaflet on my fb group so people on fb can view as it as well


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Ozzy1986 said:


> could i also place a link or place the leaflet on my fb group so people on fb can view as it as well



Go for it, it's been done by others already, so why not?


----------



## Row'n'Bud

A P A have new allies over here now.....

http://www.naracampaigns.org/pettrade.html


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja

Row'n'Bud said:


> A P A have new allies over here now.....
> 
> http://www.naracampaigns.org/pettrade.html


*glare* they get everywhere...


----------



## Sephiroth

Row'n'Bud said:


> A P A have new allies over here now.....
> 
> http://www.naracampaigns.org/pettrade.html


Sent them a quick email.



> Dear National Animal Rights Association,
> 
> I would like to advice you that it may not be a good idea to team up with the APA Ltd. It is also unwise to distribute information that they have given you.
> 
> They are currently under investigation by the Advertising Standards Authority for the information they are distributing through their leaflets, which is the information you have posted on your website. Here is a flyer that was put together by the reptile community in reaction to the APA Ltd leaflets presenting some of the facts.
> 
> http://www.reptilezones.co.uk/rev5.pdf
> 
> As you can see, it is almost certain that ASA will rule against them.
> 
> I understand you are against the pet trade, though associating yourselves with APA Ltd will not benefit your cause.
> 
> Kind regards
> Mike


----------



## Ssthisto

Row'n'Bud said:


> A P A have new allies over here now.....
> 
> http://www.naracampaigns.org/pettrade.html


Note the name of the thing - national *animal rights* association.

They're not going to be reasonable, rational or sensible in terms of animal welfare.


----------



## Graham

I notice they claim to campaign, amongst other things, for the rights of insects. I wonder what the residents of Brighton would think if they knew their MP was involved, through the APA, with people like this?


----------



## Natrix

Ssthisto said:


> Note the name of the thing - national *animal rights* association.
> 
> They're not going to be reasonable, rational or sensible in terms of animal welfare.


 
Can we say reasonable, rational or realistic. That way we can call it the three non R's of Animal Rights.

Also these are the two words that our Elaine dodges at every opportunity........ANIMAL RIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Look carefully at all the APA literature and you will notice a definite lack of these two words and lots of suggestion that they are an ANIMAL WELFARE group.
APA have been very careful up until now, not to be seen as an AR group but recent events seem to be sliding them nicely into their true niche in life.

Gordon


----------



## Row'n'Bud

Likewise, I have contacted NARA via e mail and advised them of the above...also asked if they will be willing to retract both their statements and partnership with the APA if the ASA rules against them after their inquiry .

Not expecting any response, let alone a sensible one, if honest but happy to chip away at their stone here meantime :lol2:

Their open involvement now with known animal rights activists working as volunteers for them and their partnership with known animal rights organisations will hopefully bring their true agenda and beliefs into the eyes of those who can do something about it and help to tarnish their relationships already forged with those in government and elected local councils.


----------



## xautomaticflowersx

Today I received a letter from the Advertising Standards Authority regarding my complaint against the APA leaflet "Before you reach for that reptile..." which was being distributed in Lush stores.

Attached was a draft report recommending that the complaint is upheld, this will go to the ASA Council. Apparently the report regarding the complaint against the Lush campaign will be sent separately.

The report is confidential so I'm not going into any further detail. However, it's obviously good news and I was pleased with what I read.

One thing that shocked me a bit though was that there were only 10 complaints about the APA leaflet. Looks like a lot of people have been blowing hot air and not doing anything about it!

So well done to the other 9, you obviously know who you are!


----------



## Sephiroth

xautomaticflowersx said:


> Today I received a letter from the Advertising Standards Authority regarding my complaint against the APA leaflet "Before you reach for that reptile..." which was being distributed in Lush stores.
> 
> Attached was a draft report recommending that the complaint is upheld, this will go to the ASA Council. Apparently the report regarding the complaint against the Lush campaign will be sent separately.
> 
> The report is confidential so I'm not going into any further detail. However, it's obviously good news and I was pleased with what I read.
> 
> One thing that shocked me a bit though was that there were only 10 complaints about the APA leaflet. Looks like a lot of people have been blowing hot air and not doing anything about it!
> 
> So well done to the other 9, you obviously know who you are!


Good news :2thumb: so do you mean it's just the APA complaint they are talking about and then the Lush one is still to be dealt with? 

I'll check my mail when I get back home, though could "10 complaints" mean that there are 10 points of complaint?

EDIT : Also, they might be counting the compalints against APA and Lush seperately, so maybe there were more against Lush?


----------



## kevhutch

probably been said before by people on this thread

i now boycott Lush, i used to buy from there for xmas/birthday presents but now wont give them the time of day

i know i wont make much of a difference, but every little helps


----------



## olivine

Sephiroth said:


> Good news :2thumb: so do you mean it's just the APA complaint they are talking about and then the Lush one is still to be dealt with?
> 
> I'll check my mail when I get back home, though could "10 complaints" mean that there are 10 points of complaint?
> 
> EDIT : Also, they might be counting the compalints against APA and Lush seperately, so maybe there were more against Lush?


The letter I received this morning relates to the APA leaflet, but it's Lush who've responded to the complaint, as they distributed it on behalf of APA. As to the number of complaints received, the total was 10; these covered five individual points of complaint.


----------



## Sephiroth

just read it... 

Glad it's in our favour. Sounds like Lush provided some reports to back up their claims but the ASA didn't mention whether the dates for the "reports" were recent or relevant to the UK... when I was debating with their campaigns manager on the Lush forum, the references he was providing were only for America and all from over 10 years ago...

Regardless, it is still in our favour and a win for reptile keepers :2thumb:


----------



## andy007

I did a complaint to the ASA and had a similar reply:2thumb:


----------



## lionfish

I complained and the ASA e mailed me back saying they weren't interested , if someone wants to PM me their e mail address i will send them the e mail i got from the ASA - I tried to copy and paste it here  earlier but it wouldnt let me as it is in PDF format .


----------



## Graham

I was one who complained, and received a reply from ASA to say they were investigating and that they would contact me again, but I haven't heard anything more yet.

Sounds like a good result anyway, it'll be interesting to see if it's upheld by the council, and what happens then if it is. IMO Lush should be made to run an equally high profile retraction.


----------



## xautomaticflowersx

lionfish said:


> I complained and the ASA e mailed me back saying they weren't interested , if someone wants to PM me their e mail address i will send them the e mail i got from the ASA - I tried to copy and paste it here earlier but it wouldnt let me as it is in PDF format .


Did you use the official complaint form on their website or just send them an email?
Either way I think the ship has sailed as the complaints are being sent out to the ASA Council now anyway. That said, there's no harm in people continuing to complain... after all it continues to be misleading, false and offensive.



Graham said:


> I was one who complained, and received a reply from ASA to say they were investigating and that they would contact me again, but I haven't heard anything more yet.
> 
> Sounds like a good result anyway, it'll be interesting to see if it's upheld by the council, and what happens then if it is. IMO Lush should be made to run an equally high profile retraction.


I'm sure you'll get a letter about the leaflet in the next couple of days. Then the one regarding the Chameleon bath bomb campaign will come later. Bet there'll be a few more than just 10 complaints about that!

Unfortunately I doubt they'll issue an apology/retraction. They'll probably just be made to never repeat the campaign or redistribute any of the associated literature. 

However, if the Lush complaint goes our way once it's been seen by the Council then maybe the press would be interested.

:lol2: But that might be putting the cart before the horse a bit. *Keeps fingers crossed though just in case*


----------



## Sephiroth

xautomaticflowersx said:


> Did you use the official complaint form on their website or just send them an email?
> Either way I think the ship has sailed as the complaints are being sent out to the ASA Council now anyway. That said, there's no harm in people continuing to complain... after all it continues to be misleading, false and offensive.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure you'll get a letter about the leaflet in the next couple of days. Then the one regarding the Chameleon bath bomb campaign will come later. Bet there'll be a few more than just 10 complaints about that!
> 
> Unfortunately I doubt they'll issue an apology/retraction. They'll probably just be made to never repeat the campaign or redistribute any of the associated literature.
> 
> However, if the Lush complaint goes our way once it's been seen by the Council then maybe the press would be interested.
> 
> :lol2: But that might be putting the cart before the horse a bit. *Keeps fingers crossed though just in case*


will definitely be informing every newspaper that supported the chameleon campaign as soon as ASA publish the results on their website : victory:

The fact this is the second time in a year the ASA has ruled against a self proclaimed ethical company would be interesting news :whistling2:

Looks like they've p'd off the greyhound crowd with their new campaign as well !


----------



## Graham

They're probably just working on the fact that there's really no such thing as bad publicity, even negative publicity gets their name in the news, and from that they probably attract at least as many customers who agree with their views as they lose ones who don't. It's a win/win situation for them.


----------



## Sephiroth

Graham said:


> They're probably just working on the fact that there's really no such thing as bad publicity, even negative publicity gets their name in the news, and from that they probably attract at least as many customers who agree with their views as they lose ones who don't. It's a win/win situation for them.


true  though with every campaign like this that they run, another group boycotts them... I can't imagine the number of customers they gain from running something like the chameleon campaign will out weigh the numbers they p'd off since the majority who bought the bombs were probably existing customers...

but more importantly, this will help reduce what little credibility the APA has


----------



## Graham

The important thing here is to build up a catalogue of such cases where the APA has been found to have used misleading and false information in their campaigns, then when they try to get the next reptile show or whatever banned we can point to this record as a means of discrediting them.

At the moment local councils and other authorities seem to be giving them too much credence, if it can be shown that their claims are false and that they are just using scare tactics then these bodies may pay them less attention in future.


----------



## lionfish

xautomaticflowersx said:


> Did you use the official complaint form on their website or just send them an email?
> Either way I think the ship has sailed as the complaints are being sent out to the ASA Council now anyway. That said, there's no harm in people continuing to complain... after all it continues to be misleading, false and offensive.
> 
> 
> Yes I filled in the proper form on the ASA website back in AUGUST  I'm e mailing the ASA e mail to another RFUK member and they are going to post it ni this thread for me


----------



## Kalouda

As above


----------



## lionfish

Thanks for posting it Kalouda  Well that is what I got from the ASA .

Last week they sent me a second e mail - a questionnaire asking what I thought of their performance , I didn't bother with filling it in , I just said I thought their response was poor and what was the point in them if they won't/can't be bothered to even look into it .


----------



## Kalouda

No problem, I thought it was a bog standard response, lacks personal touch and their performance is lacking.


----------



## lionfish

Ditto  I would be interested to see how many other people got the same or similar replies . I reckon they got a lot more than the 10 complaints they claim and that many people were fobbed off with the same or similar standard e mail / letter that I got ?


----------



## Graham

It's hardly the ASA's fault that your particular complaint doesn't fall under their jurisdiction is it?


----------



## lionfish

Graham said:


> It's hardly the ASA's fault that your particular complaint doesn't fall under their jurisdiction is it?


re read the first paragraph of their response - that is pretty much a blanket get out clause . What is the point in having a regulatorary body that regulates advertising if that organisation can't / doesn't have the powers to regulate "point of sale material" ( leaflets/ posters ) or anything that is on an advertisers website etc ?


----------



## Graham

I did read it, and if they don't have the power to regulate that particular area then what would you have them do? The ASA is given it's powers by government, if you think those powers are too limited then your problem is not with the ASA.

There are other things that they are empowered to regulate, as you can see by earlier posts today.

I don't know exactly how you worded your complaint, but it was obviously different to mine and those of some other people on here, because we received more favourable replies and in our cases the ASA is doing something.


----------



## Silkworm Seller

As Graham has said my guess is how you worded their complaint.

If you complained about there advertisement - then the ASA can't do anything since they do not control this. If you complained that the information used in the advertisement was incorrect/misleading - then this falls under the ASAs jurisdiction and they can take action.

It's a fine line.

If I put out an advert saying that Bradford City are the best football team in the world and have won everything ever going. You could complain about the advert itself and the ASA cannot help - if you complain that Bradford City haven't won everything ever and that this "fact" is incorrect then the ASA can help.


----------



## lionfish

Silkworm Seller said:


> As Graham has said my guess is how you worded their complaint.
> 
> If you complained about there advertisement - then the ASA can't do anything since they do not control this. If you complained that the information used in the advertisement was incorrect/misleading - then this falls under the ASAs jurisdiction and they can take action.
> 
> It's a fine line.
> 
> If I put out an advert saying that Bradford City are the best football team in the world and have won everything ever going. You could complain about the advert itself and the ASA cannot help - if you complain that Bradford City haven't won everything ever and that this "fact" is incorrect then the ASA can help.


I agree with you and completely understand what your saying , as I remember I DID complain about the claims made in the advert - specifically the one where they claimed that most reptiles die within a year of purchase - I pointed out that is blatently untrue and that I have many herps that are years old


----------



## Graham

I wish I could remember exactly how I worded my complaint now, as it would be interesting to compare them to see why mine was acceptable and yours wasn't!

I know I received an initial email response confirming receipt of my complaint, this was just an automated reply, then I think I received a more personal reply the next day, than a while later I received a letter saying that my complaint had been added to others and that they were being considered.

Obviously they've now done that and decided to put the complaint to the ASA council. Although some complaints have been rejected the important thing is that not all of them have, and that they consider the complaints to be serious enough to recommend they be upheld. 

It could be that the sheer weight of complaints helped persuade them to take the matter seriously, even though some of those complaints couldn't be upheld as they were beyond their jurisdiction, so writing to them may not have been a waste of time.


----------



## lionfish

Graham said:


> I wish I could remember exactly how I worded my complaint now, as it would be interesting to compare them to see why mine was acceptable and yours wasn't!
> 
> I know I received an initial email response confirming receipt of my complaint, this was just an automated reply, then I think I received a more personal reply the next day, than a while later I received a letter saying that my complaint had been added to others and that they were being considered.
> 
> Obviously they've now done that and decided to put the complaint to the ASA council. Although some complaints have been rejected the important thing is that not all of them have, and that they consider the complaints to be serious enough to recommend they be upheld.
> 
> It could be that the sheer weight of complaints helped persuade them to take the matter seriously, even though some of those complaints couldn't be upheld as they were beyond their jurisdiction, so writing to them may not have been a waste of time.


I agree with everything above  I too got a automated response e mail to confirm their receipt of my complaint , a second e mail ( as published on here , saying they can't act upon it ) , then a third e mail which was a questionnaire asking for my appraisal of their performance .

Graham , Was it the same person who responded to your complaint as responded to mine a Julia Dean ? I'm guessing employees at the ASA have a certain amount of autonomy / discretion in which complaints they follow up and it could just be a case of gatekeeping or to put it another way , one ASA employee might think a complaint is valid while a second ASA employee might not consider it to be valid , or it could be that they deliberately chose the best worded most succinct complaints as what lawyers call specimin charges - ie charges that represent overall what a defendent is charged with and have the best chance of being found guilty of .


----------



## Graham

I can't remember the name of the person, although that does ring a bell, I think I must have deleted the emails and I don't appear to have kept the letter either unfortunately.


----------



## Sephiroth

I had Emily Henwood...


----------



## lionfish

Sephiroth said:


> I had Emily Henwood...


Lucky you


----------



## lionfish

On a serious note , it could just be a matter of interpretation of the guidelines by a particular individual or that some ASA employees are more assiduous / diligent in doing their job .


----------



## Sephiroth

lionfish said:


> Lucky you


:lol2:


----------



## Graham

You may be right, not only do they have to interpret the guidelines but also the complaints, it may not always be obvious to them the exact nature of some of the complaints. I'm sure you've seen the standard of some people's "English" on here (not yours BTW!), it must be very difficult to work out what people are complaining about sometimes.


----------



## olivine

lionfish said:


> On a serious note , it could just be a matter of interpretation of the guidelines by a particular individual or that some ASA employees are more assiduous / diligent in doing their job .


I suspect that it may have come down to the wording of your complaint. The jurisdiction of the ASA doesn't cover claims that appears on a company's own website, so if you referred to the material that appeared on the Lush website, that could be the reason why they said that they couldn't investigate your complaint. However, their remit does cover leaflets / posters used to advertise / market products, so if the complaint had centred on the leaflets being distributed in stores, then they could (details of what they can and can't do can be found here).


----------



## lionfish

olivine said:


> However, their remit does cover leaflets / posters used to advertise / market products, so if the complaint had centred on the leaflets being distributed in stores, then they could (details of what they can and can't do can be found here).


Interesting ...as that contradicts the first paragraph of the e mail they sent me which specifically says that they don't have the power to regulate "point of sale material " i.e leaflets , posters and stickers . Anyway at least some complaints got through and are being looked into , we can only hope that these ARE upheld .


----------



## Sephiroth

Updated my sig for the benefit of APA Ltd :devil:


----------



## excession

I have had additional communication from them. It would seem they have spent some time reading through the information on RFUK about the complaint.

I wonder now if you lose any right to make a complaint if you are in any way associated with a commercial interest relating to the complaint.

Yes, I run a (very) small business that provides accessories for reptiles and exotic pets, so does that mean that I am not entitled to complain about miss-information and lies made about the hobby?


----------



## Sephiroth

excession said:


> I have had additional communication from them. It would seem they have spent some time reading through the information on RFUK about the complaint.
> 
> I wonder now if you lose any right to make a complaint if you are in any way associated with a commercial interest relating to the complaint.
> 
> Yes, I run a (very) small business that provides accessories for reptiles and exotic pets, so does that mean that I am not entitled to complain about miss-information and lies made about the hobby?


I've been told they won't treat your complaint any differently if you are involved in the reptile industry, though they need to know what involvement you do have in case APA or Lush seek a judicial review.

I've made clear to them what my involvement is with Paws for Thought,though I am speaking on my own behalf.


----------



## balmybaldwin

olivine said:


> I suspect that it may have come down to the wording of your complaint. The jurisdiction of the ASA doesn't cover claims that appears on a company's own website, so if you referred to the material that appeared on the Lush website, that could be the reason why they said that they couldn't investigate your complaint. However, their remit does cover leaflets / posters used to advertise / market products, so if the complaint had centred on the leaflets being distributed in stores, then they could (details of what they can and can't do can be found here).


 
I think I'm right in saying that last Monday (or very recently) the law had changed, and the ASA was now able to deal with Website issues too


----------

