# Guide to tarantula breeding arrangements



## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

The breeding arrangements of tarantula often follows the guidelines laid down by BTS and are often referred to as 50/50. However, this should be considered a guideline, not an enforceable law so its important to agree the terms with the breeder before sending your tarantula. For the sake of explanation you may wish to refer to this sticky thread which explains our interpretation of the arrangement.



 The owner of the mature male arranges transfer to the breeder (considered to be the owner of the female), incurring any costs.
 The owner accepts the possible loss of male but expects good care and feeding, as well as any updates on potential results.
 The arrangement is usually 50/50% share of any resulting slings, including those from subsequent sacs of the same breeding or with additional females. However, arrangements can be made to different percentages.
 The breeder incurs the costs of transporting the resulting slings to the owner of the male.
 The breeder incurs the costs of transporting the male back to the owner or forwarding to subsequent breeders.
 In the event the mated female is offered for sale the owner of the male should be given the first opportunity to buy. Selling the female on to other parties should continue the breeding arrangements and this should be made clear as part of the sale, and honoured by the new owner. Alternatively an agreement should be sought with the owner of the male as recompence.
 In the event breeding isn't considered fruitful, but further mating possible with additional males, it should be made clear to all parties that the split is equal to the parties involved. Therefore you may find 33% or 25% splits.
 
You should endeavour to obtain correct ID on the sex and identification of the specimens BEFORE considering mating, where possible you should provide details on the last moult and original source.

Whilst arrangements made on RFUK are the sole responsibility of the parties involved, RFUK will consider removing classified access to those who are proved to persistently fail to honour the arrangements. RFUK takes no responsibility for any issues that arise from breeding arrangements.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

What happens if the breeder doesn't acknowledge rules 3 & 4, would that be worthy of thread letting people know the breeder is dishonest, maybe a ban from using the classifieds section on the forum the deal was made on?

:hmm:


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

mcluskyisms said:


> What happens if the breeder doesn't acknowledge rules 3 & 4, would that be worthy of thread letting people know the breeder is dishonest, maybe a ban from using the classifieds section on the forum the deal was made on?
> 
> :hmm:


thats when you go over to feedback in their profile and post your findings there


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> thats when you go over to feedback in their profile and post your findings there


So are we going to get a feedback system on breeding loans as well as buy/trade/sell now???


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

mcluskyisms said:


> So are we going to get a feedback system on breeding loans as well as buy/trade/sell now???



it's all going in the classifieds section as a subsection, breeding loans are a transaction all said and done! :2thumb:


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> it's all going in the classifieds section as a subsection, breeding loans are a transaction all said and done! :2thumb:


Nice one.

What about previous member who have ripped people off, so they get a "clean sheet" or ban from using it?


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

mcluskyisms said:


> Nice one.
> 
> What about previous member who have ripped people off, so they get a "clean sheet" or ban from using it?


previously the MM loans were in the main classifieds section, so 'bad deals' should already have been reported and be included in there


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

mcluskyisms said:


> Nice one.
> 
> What about previous member who have ripped people off, so they get a "clean sheet" or ban from using it?


How about a name & shame sticky.

I have a couple of names to start it off with.


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

Lucky Eddie said:


> How about a name & shame sticky.
> 
> I have a couple of names to start it off with.


I like this idea, I think more should be done about scammers, if they can do that to someone why shouldn't they be publicly shown. All it does is ruin the hobby for others, why should they be allowed to get away with it.


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## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

Lucky Eddie said:


> How about a name & shame sticky.
> 
> I have a couple of names to start it off with.





vivalabam said:


> I like this idea, I think more should be done about scammers, if they can do that to someone why shouldn't they be publicly shown. All it does is ruin the hobby for others, why should they be allowed to get away with it.


 
That's not a bad idea, joking aside i've seen it done on some of the European forums, 'Terraristik' have a black list on their website of any scammers who shouldn't be dealt with.
-P


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## oliwilliams (Feb 23, 2010)

Paul c 1 said:


> That's not a bad idea, joking aside i've seen it done on some of the European forums, 'Terraristik' have a black list on their website of any scammers who shouldn't be dealt with.
> -P


 Yeah i seen it too and see on here that people say about not doing 50/50 after bad experience but never with who.
I will start by saying i never had a loaned male back from Becky or Gilyite or anything else but have had successful loan deals with unforgiven.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

The intention of the guide is to explain to people what the 50/50 deal often refers to, and to perhaps form a basis for others to follow.
RFUK don't enforce the rule we merely present the guidelines.

The objective is not to name and shame, its to provide a platform for providing feedback on your dealings, and for others to use this information when deciding on whether to enter an agreement on breeding.


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## invertasnakes (Feb 1, 2009)

As Pete said RFUK don't enforce the rules we merely present the guidelines. I think a "name and shame" system could easily be abused but what I think would be a good idea is maybe a sticky made by Mods that show reputable traders ie. people with good levels of feedback for both buying and selling for people to review maybe and give people a better understanding on who they're dealing with. : victory:

iTrader is a good place to start but personally I think its a bit limited with the few words you can leave. So maybe a more in depth feedback/personal review section/thread could be of some more use to people : victory:

Gimme your likes :lol2:


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

That's all fine and well Pete, but say for instance. If I were to buy a tarantula off you, I send you the amount of money it will cost and you don't send me the tarantula then I would say Ive been scammed by you and want to name you publicly (as well as leave back feedback).

Why should that not be any different for a 50/50 loan where someone gets scammed???

I know we have to use the iTrader system and all the rest of it, but why should we not be able to make it public accessible information that these people are scammers???


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

The problem with the rating on profile is there is only a few words, the people who I've seen scammed like to leave their story and let everyone know what has happened. Just putting scammer as feedback isn't very good, then if people wrote their story other people can make their judgements. Maybe it should be for the whole forum, not just invert section, but a section where people can make a topic about who they have been scammed by, then if others have had good experiences they can write that in the thread, so people can decide if they want to deal with them or not. It would work well in the case of un4given as people have opposed views.


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## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

mcluskyisms said:


> but why should we not be able to make it public accessible information that these people are scammers???


I very much agree ..... I sometimes think there is far too much emphasis on protecting some peoples feelings on here at times, or the said person is a well known face in the hobby or on the forum and if that's the case then we must not slander them (and i'm well aware it does happen quite often!)

If somebody is persistently known for not adhering to the rules or screwing people over... then they need to be dealt with and others need to know.
-P


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

mcluskyisms said:


> What happens if the breeder doesn't acknowledge rules 3 & 4, would that be worthy of thread letting people know the breeder is dishonest, maybe a ban from using the classifieds section on the forum the deal was made on?
> 
> :hmm:


maybe sticky for dishonest traders etc/


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

A name and shame system only works if you assume people are not going to tell porkies or exaggerate their experiences.

We see it all the time that one party will accuse another of scamming, only to dig deeper and find out it was either a misunderstanding or actually was scamming the other way around. Or the scammers just sign in with proxy accounts and are usually busily chatting away with their mates who "hate mods" and won't grass them up...only to then wisk away with someone else's dosh. 

So name and shame sounds great in principle, but after a while modding this place I wouldn't assume it'd eliminate the problems. 

At the end of the day, be vigilant, be cautious and don't be afraid to tell someone to look elsewhere if you don't like the sound of things. Or just sell MM and no bother with loans.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

You have to take into account the responsibility of the forum, or indeed any area where you might name and shame someone. To do so you would have to be accountable for that and, as we're beginning to see in Twitter that accountability has legal implications.

The forum cannot be a platform for people to accuse, to slander their name or bully. If we did, then the owners of RFUK would have to be accountable for that. So, often when people perceive a form of protection for certain members its more often the case that the single instance is no more than a misunderstanding, or sometimes a disagreement that we believe is better settled in private than in a public forum that encourages others to pitch in.

Its good to hear suggestions, that helps to develop the forum, and if possible we try to implement it.


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

GRB said:


> A name and shame system only works if you assume people are not going to tell porkies or exaggerate their experiences.
> 
> We see it all the time that one party will accuse another of scamming, only to dig deeper and find out it was either a misunderstanding or actually was scamming the other way around. Or the scammers just sign in with proxy accounts and are usually busily chatting away with their mates who "hate mods" and won't grass them up...only to then wisk away with someone else's dosh.
> 
> ...



Not only this but the legal ramifications have to be considered. If naming and shaming goes on then it has to be substantiated. If this can't be proven (usually results in he said/she said) then the said scam artist can hold RFUK responsible for allowing the slander of their name. I've seen it happen on another forum I use (SFI) and it caused a furore to say the least and now all name and shame posts are deleted before they can take root. If you do things via pay pal then you have every right to dispute transactions. 

If you need to let people know about potential scamming then post up that you have knowledge of this and offer any details via private messaging as it just gets far to messy otherwise.


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

Poxicator said:


> You have to take into account the responsibility of the forum, or indeed any area where you might name and shame someone. To do so you would have to be accountable for that and, as we're beginning to see in Twitter that accountability has legal implications.
> 
> The forum cannot be a platform for people to accuse, to slander their name or bully. If we did, then the owners of RFUK would have to be accountable for that. So, often when people perceive a form of protection for certain members its more often the case that the single instance is no more than a misunderstanding, or sometimes a disagreement that we believe is better settled in private than in a public forum that encourages others to pitch in.
> 
> Its good to hear suggestions, that helps to develop the forum, and if possible we try to implement it.


Damn, you must've been posting as I was typing.......!


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

oliwilliams said:


> Yeah i seen it too and see on here that people say about not doing 50/50 after bad experience but never with who.
> I will start by saying i never had a loaned male back from Becky or Gilyite or anything else but have had successful loan deals with unforgiven.


This was completely beyond my control as i was very ill and in hospital :devil: 
I sent you a paypal payment as payment for the male as i had had him for so long.....


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

would be a nice post except the bit that goes " As laid down by the bts" like that means alot. I no you claim they don't think they are the spider law but lets face it they do think this really-
Looking for a number

ray hale says there as if it is his juristriction of the tarantula police, or at least thats how he comes over to me.


> Not really sure what went on but I intend to find out.


 

couple of points:
Rule 6 is total crap:-


> In the event of a sale of the female the breeding arrangements should be made clear as part of the sale, and honoured by the new owner


I would re write that:-
In the event of a sale the owner of the male should be given first chance to buy it. If they refuse then any new owner can be asked to honour the breeding but they do NOT have to oblige. The seller can decied if they wish to sell to them or not.

Rule 7 makes not sence:-


> In the event breeding isn't considered fruitful, but further mating possible with additional males, it should be made clear to all parties that the split is equal to the parties involved. Therefore you may find 33% or 25% splits


How would you know if a mating isn't fruitful or not? If more than one male is used and has successfully mated with the female then it makes sence but otherwise?


> You should make sure you are completely clear on the sex and identification of the specimens BEFORE considering mating


and how many people are truely sure on the identification of their specimens? This just goes into the anti hybrid campain that is put out by those people who themselfs have hybrids yet seem to think they don't....avics, brachys, hystercrates, phamphos and so on and so on.

There is no law againts hybrids and this is just another aspect of this hobby.



> RFUK will consider removing classified access to those who are proved to persistently fail to honour the arrangements


do you mean these arangements? if so they what if different arangements are made and not honered and one partie lies about the arangements?


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

^you come across as quite rude.
there is no need to say 'this is crap' and stuff along those lines, just point out how it can be corrected


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## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> would be a nice post except the bit that goes " As laid down by the bts" like that means alot. I no you claim they don't think they are the spider law but lets face it they do think this really-
> Looking for a number
> 
> ray hale says there as if it is his juristriction of the tarantula police, or at least thats how he comes over to me.
> ...


So your basically saying that the BTS is nothing? Even though it's the old tarantulas society?



> Rule 7 makes not sence:


Maybe no, they then again, with this post, you make not sense too


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## Mutley.100 (Nov 3, 2008)

I have to wonder how many of you actually look at the feedback other people leave . 

If you click on someone else's feedback it takes you to the thread linked to the feedback . What's to stop you leaving more detail in the thread ? 

Saying that if the threads locked you can't . Unless the mods put a special feedback section in the classifieds . That'd probably be more trouble than it's worth though . 

Either way , any -1 on feedback shouldn't be ignored , and should be investigated .


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

spinnin_tom said:


> ^you come across as quite rude.
> there is no need to say 'this is crap' and stuff along those lines, just point out how it can be corrected


yes I do so get over it and stop turning this into yet another I hate BP because he don't give a dam what he writes and is very rude thread!


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

Baldpoodle said:


> yes I do so get over it and stop turning this into yet another I hate BP because he don't give a dam what he writes and is very rude thread!
> 
> tit


just pointing things out.
there we go again.
lets leave it at that


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> So your basically saying that the BTS is nothing? Even though it's the old tarantulas society?


yes it is nothing in regards to anything to do with rules and regulations. Only good thing the bts do IMO is bring out a journal every so often when they bother to get their act together (late again...oh but we have day jobs and we are all volinteers etc etc). the fact that its the so say oldest means nothing what so ever.



> Maybe no, they then again, with this post, you make not sense too


show me and I will correct it to what I am trying tio say


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

spinnin_tom said:


> just pointing things out.
> there we go again.
> lets leave it at that


well there was no need to was there. lets leave it then!


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## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

Mutley.100 said:


> I have to wonder how many of you actually look at the feedback other people leave .


 
Personally I always check feedback Matt, infact I go further than that if i'm not too sure about the seller I'll go as far as cross checking their user names on other forums and/or private messaging others on here to find out more details.

Strangely, I also have a very good memory and remember certain names and incidents that have happened between people on here in the past, ....infact I would go as far as saying I have a long list of people on here who I will never ever deal with.
-P


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Paul c 1 said:


> Strangely, I also have a very good memory and remember certain names and incidents that have happened between people on here in the past, ....infact I would go as far as saying I have a long list of people on here who I will never ever deal with.
> -P


lol same


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## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> yes it is nothing in regards to anything to do with rules and regulations. Only good thing the bts do IMO is bring out a journal every so often when they bother to get their act together (late again...oh but we have day jobs and we are all volinteers etc etc). the fact that its the so say oldest means nothing what so ever.
> 
> 
> show me and I will correct it to what I am trying tio say


no-one is saying these are rules and regulations. As was stated clear in the original post these are GUIDELINES. No-one said anything about these being rules & regulations.

When I quoted you


> Rule 7 makes not sense:


, I meant your use of the English language was not making any sense, seeing as how you decided to nit-pick at "rule 7"


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

Paul c 1 said:


> Personally I always check feedback Matt, infact I go further than that if i'm not too sure about the seller I'll go as far as cross checking their user names on other forums and/or private messaging others on here to find out more details.
> 
> Strangely, I also have a very good memory and remember certain names and incidents that have happened between people on here in the past, ....infact I would go as far as saying I have a long list of people on here who I will never ever deal with.
> -P


That's being very thorough, wish I did that, but if I'm honest I don't buy anything that expensive online, I always check the feedback regardless but anything over £20 I wouldn't buy (unless I know the person and know they are an active member). The most expensive T I brought was my King Baboon and I went and picked her up, lucky I did as he turned out to be a scammer.


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

snowgoose said:


> no-one is saying these are rules and regulations. As was stated clear in the original post these are GUIDELINES. No-one said anything about these being rules & regulations.
> 
> When I quoted you , I meant your use of the English language was not making any sense, seeing as how you decided to nit-pick at "rule 7"


BP is diswhatsymathingycallit but he does talk sense.


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## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

Stelios said:


> BP is diswhatsymathingycallit but he does talk sense.


Not having a go, but TBH i really couldn't give a peanut if he's dyslexic or whatever the hell he claims to be.

I never said he didn't talk sense, but if he is going to nit-pick other people etc then maybe he should learn to correct use of the English language.

He could be dyslexic, deaf, dum or maybe he has no legs or arms and has to type with his dick, tbh I couldn't give a peanut.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

snowgoose said:


> no-one is saying these are rules and regulations. As was stated clear in the original post these are GUIDELINES. No-one said anything about these being rules & regulations.


I know this, but as soon as things like "guidelines laid down by bts" comes into play it is as if they are protectors of the spider breeding relm and are an autortiee on such things (which they are not). Why even bring the bts into it?


snowgoose said:


> When I quoted you , I meant your use of the English language was not making any sense, seeing as how you decided to nit-pick at "rule 7"


sorry I am not going to say sorry for my dyslexia to you or anyone else so like my rudness you can either ignor or live with it either is fine by me. And it is not nit picking either as I want to know what is considered a non fruitful breeding and how you check this?


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

snowgoose said:


> Not having a go, but TBH i really couldn't give a peanut if he's dyslexic or whatever the hell he claims to be.
> 
> I never said he didn't talk sense, but if he is going to nit-pick other people etc *then maybe he should learn to correct use of the English language.*
> 
> He could be dyslexic, deaf, dum or maybe he has no legs or arms and has to type with his dick, tbh I couldn't give a peanut.


then maybe I "should learn to use the" that should be or?



Thanks to my good lady wife for pointing that out for me:2thumb:


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

^language.
this is a forum used by children too
like me lol


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> then maybe I "should learn to use the" that should be or?
> 
> yep your a dick.
> 
> Thanks to my good lady wife for pointing that out for me:2thumb:


: victory: Dyslexic's 1 Normo's 0


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

spinnin_tom said:


> ^language.
> this is a forum used by children too
> like me lol


are you targeting me or the other couple of hundred posts with mild swear words in them?


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

Baldpoodle said:


> are you targeting me or the other couple of hundred posts with mild swear words in them?


it was a joke, hence lol


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## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

spinnin_tom said:


> it was a joke, hence lol


 
I'm afraid we don't joke on here Tom, there just isn't a place for it.
-P


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

spinnin_tom said:


> it was a joke, hence lol


Tom im shocked, I learned long ago that the Chelonian and DWA boards are the correct place for joking :devil:


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

Oderus said:


> Tom im shocked, I learned long ago that the Chelonian and DWA boards are the correct place for joking :devil:


okay then.
i'll go onto dwa then, i'm considering buying a panda cub


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Baldpoodle said:


> would be a nice post except the bit that goes " As laid down by the bts" like that means alot. I no you claim they don't think they are the spider law but lets face it they do think this really-
> Looking for a number
> 
> ray hale says there as if it is his juristriction of the tarantula police, or at least thats how he comes over to me.


Most people I know consider these guidelines to be part of BTS, however I personally can't find anything that suggests its their idea. For that reason I haven't chosen to name this as BTS 50/50 arrangements. 
We're all well aware of your compulsion to slate the BTS, yet I wonder if you ever take the comments up with them? Perhaps the reason Ray wants to find out is because he made a donation, or perhaps because the tragic end to this young boys life was recognised at BTS expo, or perhaps because the parents approached the BTS on this matter. Perhaps you might ask them before coming up with your theories. Perhaps, but very doubtful.




> couple of points:
> Rule 6 is total crap:-
> 
> I would re write that:-
> In the event of a sale the owner of the male should be given first chance to buy it. If they refuse then any new owner can be asked to honour the breeding but they do NOT have to oblige. The seller can decied if they wish to sell to them or not.


Point 6 (note I haven't followed your mistaken perception that this is a rule):
Again you've given your thoughts on this within RFUK, you were in the minority of 1 if I remember correctly, hence the guidelines don't take your opinion into account. But, as stated in the first paragraph which I shall repeat for you:
_"this should be considered a guideline, not an enforceable law so its important to agree the terms with the seller before sending your tarantula to the breeder"._
However, your point on the sale of the mated female is an important one that I should have included. So, I shall add that "In the event the mated female is offered for sale the owner of the male should be given the first opportunity to buy." But the mating deal should still carry with the new owner. The reason I believe this is important is its open to abuse, lets provide an example. I offer a MM P. metallica for 50/50, a breeder who has 5 females accepts my male and 4 months down the line finds themselves in need of cash. They offer all of the gravid females for £300 each. Most people would find it hard to justify £1,500 on suspected gravid females, but equally they'll be rather peeved to find their breeding arrangements void.



> Rule 7 makes not sence:-
> 
> How would you know if a mating isn't fruitful or not? If more than one male is used and has successfully mated with the female then it makes sence but otherwise?


Point 7, best described by another example, this time personal. I mated a female Poecilotheria but 8 months later there was little sign of success. The opportunity arose to try with a fresh male. So, I explained to the owner of the first male that I suspect the first pairing wasn't successful and explained to both owners of the male that any subsequent slings would be shared equally between the 3 of us.




> and how many people are truely sure on the identification of their specimens? This just goes into the anti hybrid campain that is put out by those people who themselfs have hybrids yet seem to think they don't....avics, brachys, hystercrates, phamphos and so on and so on.
> 
> There is no law againts hybrids and this is just another aspect of this hobby.


I shall amend "make sure you are completely clear" to "endeavour to obtain correct ID". I make no mention of hybrids, they are neither inclusive or exclusive.



> do you mean these arangements? if so they what if different arangements are made and not honered and one partie lies about the arangements?


It says "the arrangements", whether that be using this guide or arrangements created by the 2 parties. Obviously, we can only make that decision on the information provided to us and within our remit.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

I am very fussy who i buy from or do a loan with on this forum. So far iv never had a problem and the guys who know who they are are all brilliant people who really show the best of the hobby. Luckily i myself havent had any MMs yet but i have a few coming upto maturity soon. Sadly i shall not be offering them up on here but offering them to members of the BTS and the people i know on this forum who will not rip me off. This sounds harsh for those that are genuine and wont get a chance but at the end of the day i prefer to watch my own back in these situations. I also rarely buy without seeing the spider in the flesh unless i know the seller and trust them 100% if there is a doubt there then i wont bother.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

^it's really your choice what you do selina.
i think that is a very good choice you are making, the guys on here seem sooo good and genuine. but, you never know until something goes wrong.
luckily i only have slings atm, no breeding loan problems for a few years


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

spinnin_tom said:


> ^it's really your choice what you do selina.
> i think that is a very good choice you are making, the guys on here seem sooo good and genuine. but, you never know until something goes wrong.
> luckily i only have slings atm, no breeding loan problems for a few years


there are a few people i am genuinely wary of on here and really do not feel that its appropriate that i do deals with them. there are also a few people on here that have problems with me but tbh its usually a mutual feeling lmao


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

selina20 said:


> there are a few people i am genuinely wary of on here and really do not feel that its appropriate that i do deals with them. there are also a few people on here that have problems with me but tbh its usually a mutual feeling lmao


see now i'd rather go and see the animal in Q before buying it, at least until i've dealt with them for a while. it is better to be safe.
i think to each his own works with this.. they are either wary, or not


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Poxicator said:


> Most people I know consider these guidelines to be part of BTS, *however I personally can't find anything that suggests its their idea. For that reason I haven't chosen to name this as BTS 50/50 arrangements.*


I would also agree with that idea Pete, I would say that guidelines such as these were the idea of breeders who were often BTS members including some of those who are or have been on the BTS committee at sometime, but not the product of the BTS in any kind of "official" regard. 



Poxicator said:


> Point 6 (note I haven't followed your mistaken perception that this is a rule):
> Again you've given your thoughts on this within RFUK, you were in the minority of 1 if I remember correctly, hence the guidelines don't take your opinion into account. But, as stated in the first paragraph which I shall repeat for you:
> _"this should be considered a guideline, not an enforceable law so its important to agree the terms with the seller before sending your tarantula to the breeder"._
> However, your point on the sale of the mated female is an important one that I should have included. So, I shall add that "In the event the mated female is offered for sale the owner of the male should be given the first opportunity to buy." But the mating deal should still carry with the new owner. The reason I believe this is important is its open to abuse, lets provide an example. I offer a MM P. metallica for 50/50, a breeder who has 5 females accepts my male and 4 months down the line finds themselves in need of cash. They offer all of the gravid females for £300 each. Most people would find it hard to justify £1,500 on suspected gravid females, but equally they'll be rather peeved to find their breeding arrangements void.


I have always understood breeding loan offspring to be shared with the loan male owner in the event of a sale to be very much the in the hands of females buyer, certainly it could (should) be seen as the right thing to do but it really depends on the new owner.

Not all species are easy to get a good sac from and to that point the new owner of the female may feel they owe the male's owner little if the former was also given first chance to buy the female also.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Oderus said:


> Not all species are easy to get a good sac from and to that point the new owner of the female may feel they owe the male's owner little if the former was also given first chance to buy the female also.


But what if the males owner isnt in a financial situation to buy the female especially if its one of the expensive species such as P.mets or balfs


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> Most people I know consider these guidelines to be part of BTS, however I personally can't find anything that suggests its their idea. For that reason I haven't chosen to name this as BTS 50/50 arrangements.


these are not part of the bts at all, and I can't even think why you would bring the bts into the topic. and if you cant find anything that suggests its their idea they why say "laid down by the bts"?



> We're all well aware of your compulsion to slate the BTS, yet I wonder if you ever take the comments up with them?


have done many times in the past and the normal answer that comes from any crititism is... well if you can do better do so or words to this effect, only no one is ever given the chance to do so anyway.


> Perhaps the reason Ray wants to find out is because he made a donation, or perhaps because the tragic end to this young boys life was recognised at BTS expo, or perhaps because the parents approached the BTS on this matter. Perhaps you might ask them before coming up with your theories. Perhaps, but very doubtful.


perhaps eh.



> Point 6 (note I haven't followed your mistaken perception that this is a rule):


only you are in a way making it a rule because as you say RFUK will take action to those who do not honour arangements and by looks of it that is the guideline we have to follow.



> Again you've given your thoughts on this within RFUK, you were in the minority of 1 if I remember correctly, hence the guidelines don't take your opinion into account.


weather you take it into account or not a new owner of a mated spider is not obliged mourely or otherwise to to share any offspring. 


> But the mating deal should still carry with the new owner. The reason I believe this is important is its open to abuse, lets provide an example. I offer a MM P. metallica for 50/50, a breeder who has 5 females accepts my male and 4 months down the line finds themselves in need of cash. They offer all of the gravid females for £300 each. Most people would find it hard to justify £1,500 on suspected gravid females, but equally they'll be rather peeved to find their breeding arrangements void.


on the other hand someone who pays out 300 quid on a mated spider is taking a gamble that they will get a viable eggsac, so why should they give away half their spidelings? If you buy a wc female from the spider shop and it lays a viable sac do you feel it is only right you give them back half the young? course not but in effect its the same, so unless you have made an agreement with the previous owner then all bets are off, and you can only moan at the seller and not the new owner. In your example it is tough cheese and he should take it up with the seller. 



> Point 7, best described by another example, this time personal. I mated a female Poecilotheria but 8 months later there was little sign of success. The opportunity arose to try with a fresh male. So, I explained to the owner of the first male that I suspect the first pairing wasn't successful and explained to both owners of the male that any subsequent slings would be shared equally between the 3 of us.


ah now I can see what you mean but by just leaving it as if you have used additional males from different people would have kept it simple.


> I shall amend "make sure you are completely clear" to "endeavour to obtain correct ID". I make no mention of hybrids, they are neither inclusive or exclusive.


if hybrids are neither inclusive or exclusive then why your importance in the correct id?


> It says "the arrangements", whether that be using this guide or arrangements created by the 2 parties. Obviously, we can only make that decision on the information provided to us and within our remit.


ah!!


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

selina20 said:


> But what if the males owner isnt in a financial situation to buy the female especially if its one of the expensive species such as P.mets or balfs


I would say they should play nice and at least give a few of slings to the male's owner even if it's not 50%, unless there was a sales arrangement with the females seller stating the buyer must give whatever % to the males owner. 

But the same could also be true of the females buyer if they wanted a return on their outlay they may not want to give more then few slings to the males owner for that reason.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

selina20 said:


> But what if the males owner isnt in a financial situation to buy the female especially if its one of the expensive species such as P.mets or balfs


so the chances are they would be selling a mated female of this sort of species for quite a high price so, have words with the seller to give you a percentage of the money they make.

Unless there is a condition of the sale the new owner has not got to give up half of any eggsac.


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## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

selina20 said:


> But what if the males owner isnt in a financial situation to buy the female especially if its one of the expensive species such as P.mets or balfs


You can have the guidelines but at the end of the day that's all they are .... there is always a gamble or an element of risk involved in breeding loans and you have to think about the "what if's" before you loan out the male.

If you're not in a financial position to buy the mated female ... then I'm sorry as ruthless as it sounds .. I guess that's just the way the cookie crumbles 
-P


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Baldpoodle said:


> so the chances are they would be selling a mated female of this sort of species for quite a high price so, have words with the seller to give you a percentage of the money they make.
> 
> Unless there is a condition of the sale the new owner has not got to give up half of any eggsac.


Thats a pretty good point tbh


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

One thing I forgot to say (and I may come over a bit bitter sounding) is despite the fact people's circumstances can change but I would think most people that can buy 40-50 slings/juvs could "probably" run to 200-300 for the female mated with their male or at least sell something etc to take the chance on the mated female if it's offered.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

also if the seller of a mated female dosn't say whose male he used and the buyer doesn't ask as the persume the seller used his own, then it is just as possible for some idiot to make a false claim on the ownership of the male that was used. And yes I know of this kind of thing happening in the past!

In all honestly why do we even need such guidelines here? are we all really that thick that we can not work out a simple arangement between 2 or 3 people that is acceptable for all parties involved?


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Oderus said:


> One thing I forgot to say (and I may come over a bit bitter sounding) is despite the fact people's circumstances can change but I would think most people that can buy 40-50 slings/juvs could "probably" run to 200-300 for the female mated with their male or at least sell something etc to take the chance on the mated female if it's offered.


Peoples financial situations change though


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

selina20 said:


> Peoples financial situations change though


Yes but "circumstances" sounded better :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

selina20 said:


> Peoples financial situations change though


lol Im not suprised when buy spiderlings for 40 or 50 quid a shot!:lol2:
yes its a tough world we all have to live with.


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> lol Im not suprised when buy spiderlings for 40 or 50 quid a shot!:lol2:
> yes its a tough world we all have to live with.


Depends who you get the loan from..


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

YouTube - ‪Aqua Unit Patrol Squad 1 ep. 5‬‏
oh yes that and doug and dinstale


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

Why should some one be bound by another's agreement?
It is down to the original person who agreed the 50/50 to make recompense to the other party in the 50/50 or don't sell the spider.


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## oliwilliams (Feb 23, 2010)

So if 50/50 is gonna so much of an issue with certain people and should just sell males on does that mean they should sell for the same price as a female ? If your not gonna get any return on slings if mating goes well then at least made something back that way.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

I did say this before that guidelines would lead to 'discussion' :lol:

I'll say again....just sort it out yourselves before you do the deal. 

It's not rocket science, there's plenty of total plebs on this place I wouldn't sell or loan a pencil to, let alone an animal. Sort out the 50/50 before if that's what you want or just sell. 

I find the talk of 33/33/33 and 12/12/15/25% all a bit rediculous as it seldom seems to happen and if it did, you'd just sort it out at the time surely, especially if you've already avoided the plebs beforehand.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

seriously? all this because someone used a term that one member took exception to?

lets just change the term 'as set down by the BTS' and insert '50/50 Breeding Loan Etiquette that has been used worldwide since before the existence of said UK based society' and then we can all move on :2thumb:


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## turion68 (Aug 30, 2009)

Someone post a good guy / bad guy thread. Seen it used on other forums ( not inverts ). As long as people post about their good experiences as well as the few bad it should be used enough for a sticky. Again nothing slanderous just how well the transaction went.


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## samhack (Jan 11, 2009)

I really think it should be as simple as making an arrangement with someone and keeping up your end of it.
Society is full of rules that most people live by, we call them law. If you break said law and are found guilty of breaking this law, you are punished for it.

Its a shame a similar system can't be used in regards to this. I always make good on my word and would hate to be on the short stick of any arrangement with T loaning and 50/50's.

Its just a shame not everyone can play well together.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

i dont understand this, is it so difficult to look at that %age of positive feedback? thats what it's there for :2thumb:


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

The guides are not meant to form any strict rule, they are being suggested to form a basis for arrangements and to inform people of what the usual arrangements are. I don't know where you might find a similar thread, so I felt there was a need for one.
I suggest if you go into a breeding arrangment you refer to these guides so that both parties are clear, and pick and choose which of these points you consider part of your own arrangement. 



Baldpoodle said:


> only you are in a way making it a rule because as you say RFUK will take action to those who do not honour arangements and by looks of it that is the guideline we have to follow.


Nobody will have their classified access removed because they choose to follow their own arrangements. But, if they repeatedly renege on their own arrangements we will consider removing that access. What we're doing is providing a guide that people choose to follow or not but its supposed to encourage dialogue on the arrangements. We're looking into providing a MM loan subsection in the Inverts classifieds, with a link to the guidelines and the opportunity for people to provide trader feedback on this.
Presently we don't have this so deals are made on a 50/50 basis that isnt specified properly, that has no comeback and is proving to cause issues.

Surely that's an improvement we could all benefit from?


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## Lucybug (May 10, 2011)

Just a question,

What if a user of the forum, made a deal scammed them, and everything was done as you mods suggest, leave feedback,

Then say the user who scammed left that account, and made a new one UNDER A NEW IP ADDRESS, which you could not possibly point at and say it is this person and/or that person because the IP does not match, 

Again anouther P.mett AF is up for grabs of a resonable £150 - £200, somone pays (again) gets scammed, way to late to claim the money back as it is no longer there bla bla bla and so on.

I see the feedback system ok if the user is true to there word, but for scammers, the system has flaws, and can be avoided. Again some poor sap gets scammed by the same person, under a diffrent username and all that will happen is, "use the feedback system" ??

I think it is a good idea to have a feedback section for the individuals, a "Name and Shame" area. It's all well saying be careful, but new people to forums dont realise that this forum has scammers which will work there way through you because of the simple flawed system being run here...

Also how about if people do sell, not everyone leaves feedback, they tell you the spider is fine, and healthy thanks for her she is gourgess and so forth, then no feedback ... So not everyone will get feedback


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Lucybug said:


> Just a question,
> 
> What if a user of the forum, made a deal scammed them, and everything was done as you mods suggest, leave feedback,
> 
> ...


How will a name and shame avoid that?

What makes you think scammers don't lie about names? It's not that hard to set up accounts on paypal without a name or with just initials or whatever. 

A name and shame, besides all the legal stuff, also exists as an advert. It's and advert about what details we know and what we don't. The more scammers know about that side of things the more they can exploit. 





> Also how about if people do sell, not everyone leaves feedback, they tell you the spider is fine, and healthy thanks for her she is gourgess and so forth, then no feedback ... So not everyone will get feedback


That happens anyway - I've sold a fair few things and no-one leaves me feedback, hence why I'm on 1. The posts on my sale threads however have been good...it's just how it goes down. I'm not a mega seller so I don't chase up feedback, some do, some don't. We can't force people to leave feedback either.

When it comes down to it, unless we basically hire professional fraud prevention staff, I can't see any way to make the classifieds 100% safe. Ultimately it comes down to risk. If you want to risk £200 on spiders from some random, with 0 feedback or 5 or whatever, 100 miles away, then OK. Some will see that as a big risk and other not (i.e. if you know them and they are sound). Or, just buy from some of the more established traders. It does seem unlikely someone with 1000 feedback is going to suddenly spin and vacate after a dodgey sale. Of course, if people left feedback more often and read it, scrutinised it, it would help this.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Its not intended to be a fail safe system, its an improvement on the current system.

There is already a system implemented for dealing with multiple registrations.


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## Kamike (Aug 3, 2009)

8 pages of faffing over a few simple guide lines to follow :lol2:

Idiots and scammers are a part of life, look at feedback, old posts and ask others about their dealing with said member. If your still worried don't enter into any kind of deal it really is that simple.


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## Rosiemum (Jan 14, 2010)

selina20 said:


> But what if the males owner isnt in a financial situation to buy the female especially if its one of the expensive species such as P.mets or balfs


Or if someone is in the same situation as myself? I'm quite new to the hobby, and what I know about breeding T's could easily be written on a postage stamp and still leave room for the address. If I was to send out an MM, there was a successful mating, and then the gravid female was offered for sale, I wouldn't want to buy her - not because I couldn't afford her, but I wouldn't know what to do with her once I'd got her, and it would be a terrible waste if the eggs were all lost because of my inexperience. 

It seems a bit harsh that I should be denied any of the slings because I was trying to maximise the chances of a successful breeding by letting her go to someone who knew what they were doing.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Rosiemum said:


> Or if someone is in the same situation as myself? I'm quite new to the hobby, and what I know about breeding T's could easily be written on a postage stamp and still leave room for the address. If I was to send out an MM, there was a successful mating, and then the gravid female was offered for sale, I wouldn't want to buy her - not because I couldn't afford her, but I wouldn't know what to do with her once I'd got her, and it would be a terrible waste if the eggs were all lost because of my inexperience.
> 
> It seems a bit harsh that I should be denied any of the slings because I was trying to maximise the chances of a successful breeding by letting her go to someone who knew what they were doing.


or you could buy it and just pass it on to someone else who has got more experience. or buy it and ask to leave it with the seller until either an eggsac comes or it moults. 
either way a gravid female is more than likely going to be more expensive to buy and offer no garintees it will lay. Infact I would say that there is more chance that it moults when put into a new container (nothing brings on a moult quicker IMO) so because of this I would speak to the seller for a cut in the profit he made in the sale. 
As the new owner I would not feel obliged to give you any resulting spiderlings if an eggsac came off because of the likely high price of the mated female in the first place. And if I was paying an over priced price it would be nothing more than a gamble on my part, this being the case if the spider does not produce an eggsac, how about I say to you I want a partial refund due to the lack of eggsac?


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## Rosiemum (Jan 14, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> or you could buy it and just pass it on to someone else who has got more experience. or buy it and ask to leave it with the seller until either an eggsac comes or it moults.
> either way a gravid female is more than likely going to be more expensive to buy and offer no garintees it will lay. Infact I would say that there is more chance that it moults when put into a new container (nothing brings on a moult quicker IMO) so because of this I would speak to the seller for a cut in the profit he made in the sale.
> As the new owner I would not feel obliged to give you any resulting spiderlings if an eggsac came off because of the likely high price of the mated female in the first place. And if I was paying an over priced price it would be nothing more than a gamble on my part, this being the case if the spider does not produce an eggsac, how about I say to you I want a partial refund due to the lack of eggsac?


Hmmm - yes, I take your point. But if I'd let my MM go for nothing in the hope of getting some of his progeny back, I would then feel a bit peeved if the female he was mated with was sold on and I ended up with nothing! Although it wouldn't be as exciting as a package of tiny slings, a share of any profit made from her sale would certainly be better than nothing.

I really think this is one of those problems without a single cut and dried solution, and one the people involved in the deal would have to thrash out between them.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

*Bts*

have edited this post should have been a seperate thread


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## spider shane (Apr 16, 2010)

now i want to pick a hole in this bit.

i loan males.........lots of males loaned and lent lots of males ( nothing back yet ) in the time i have had only had 2 sac's that came good both i have sent out on and there is another im about too. but what if you mate up the spiders and nothing happens, but the person who loaned you the male is like so many on the net and just wants to start wally because they think they have been bumped. the breeder then gets a bad name for nothing, just because some hot headed turnip wants to mess up there rep.

what happens when this is the case?


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

The benefit of trader feedback is its a record of your experiences, which others can use to get an idea on how the arrangements have gone.
I suspect most of the disgruntled people are those that believe a mating = success, whereas those with more experience know there are many hurdles to cross, certainly no guarantee of success.
I believe communication is key. If the person who took the male didnt provide any feedback the person who owned it has a right to feel disgruntled. Keep people informed even if there's little information to provide. My recent breeding with Tim's T. blondi was over an 8 month period, I rather suspect new breeders believe it will be a lot quicker than that.

If the arrangement suffers and people leave negative feedback you have a right to report that and it will be looked into by the mods.


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## spider shane (Apr 16, 2010)

cool. as long as the people who do keep there word are not penalised by some one lacking experience or is just an ass. then yeah i think there should be a black list for bad breeders and while we are at it how about one for bad sellers?


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## spider shane (Apr 16, 2010)

wally and turnip ok sorry pete.


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

I know it's annoying Shane but how are the mods supposed to police something like that when it's just one person's word against another? I mated my M. robustum up about 8 months ago with a loaned male and she hasn't done anything regards either making a sac or moulting.

I've PM'd the male's owner once or twice but I have no news for him other than "she hasn't done anything yet mate" and he can only take my word for that. If he suddenly decided 8 months is quite long enough, he could start slagging me off and accusing me of keeping an egg sac quiet and selling the slings on the sly.

Then before you know it, rumour becomes fact as it does on forums and I'd be tarred as a dishonest person. I am against black lists for this reason. If you send a male out you run the risk you might well end up with nothing. That's why I sell my males now - no hassle and no bad feeling if you don't get a result from loaning them.


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## Sylvi (Dec 30, 2008)

Quote GarlicPickle ''That's why I sell my males now - no hassle and no bad feeling if you don't get a result from loaning them.''

Me too Pickle  I buy my males in, use them and then re-sell them. I loan a few out sometimes depending on who the person is and what the spider is, but it tends to be only the spiders that are difficult to breed and the chances of sucess are slim.

The other reason I like to buy in is because i don't feel like I've let someone down if the male gets munched or the sac fails.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

^
exactly you 2.
you don't loan your males if you are wary that you will have a fast one, pulled on you. you sell them.. easy fix


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## spider shane (Apr 16, 2010)

me not getting nothing back is my loss and not the point im ona about. you too both know that i have a shed load of spiders and getting males in is hard so yes when i can i buy them but most of the time people only want 50/50s and im fine with that but the way things are on the fourm takes the peewee.its not happened to me as of yet.but i dont want to see the honist breeders me incuded getting slated and we all know there are people out there that would. any ways enought said on this.



and lisa my dear you know you love me because im kinda cute............................

so i got dibs on 10 M. robustum slings if you get any hehe x


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

spider shane said:


> and lisa my dear you know you love me because im kinda cute............................
> 
> so i got dibs on 10 M. robustum slings if you get any hehe x


of course I love you Shane (just don't tell Mark or Lorna hehe)

but you didn't want my subfusca slings so you're not getting any robustum either :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## spider shane (Apr 16, 2010)

ill have some subfusca slings once i go to kempton.... if you still have some.
i am looking at buying an sub AF robustum at the mo.x


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## jb1962 (Sep 21, 2009)

I loaned my mm Pzb last November and if the owner of the female said she moulted and all was no good... I'd have to take his/her word for that.
If later I see this person has been offering Pzb slings for sale I can,
1- think they lied,
2- they breed it with another ( no chance too soon )
So it's down to trust.. yeah there are dishonest people .. But to over come this on a forum is not easy..
So I would use a star system ( the more stars the better the breeder )
And if some one gets done then keep all emails to show this and then you could maybe take it to court ( small claims ) But keep in mind that a dishonest breeder can say " oh she killed your male " and you have no idea if it's true or not.. So I go by word of mouth.. If I still have a gut feeling I'll let the male die a virgin..
As I'll help most people but take me for a mug once will be the first and last and I stick with that.. So we can't think a forum can force a dishonest breeder out of business .. we do it our selves by passing on information by pm..


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