# Shocking!



## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Why would you....

Green tree frog, 10 tadpoles | eBay


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## FrogNick (Jul 2, 2009)

why is it shocking?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

FrogNick said:


> why is it shocking?


 I was wondering the same?


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

So you guys think that this is ethnical?


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## FrogNick (Jul 2, 2009)

They are CB tadpoles they have a good chance surving in the post and if they don't it's not really a big deal due to the numbers. Nice to see people breeding these as it’s more ethical than importing hundreds of adult frogs from the wild.


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

I agree Nick regarding the captive breeding but why use a commercial platform for exploitation? 



To simply pack these up and ship them out using unethical methods only fuels the fire. It would never enter my mind to put my offspring through such an ordeal.


These are living, breathing animals and have a much right to be here as we do.


If one chooses to play god and breeds these animals then he or she has a responsibility to provide the very best in animal welfare... regardless of lining the pockets.


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

whats unethical about selling them?

we all go to shows/shops where CB frogs etc are for sale? As Nick said, it's much better than ravishing the wild....


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Terrarium Supplies said:


> I agree Nick regarding the captive breeding but why use a commercial platform for exploitation?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the seller isnt expoliting anything lol ... he's trying to sell his frogs, like for example, dartfrog.co.uk who posts his frogs and many other companies that post animals.

stop getting your knickers in a twist over nothing.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I don't think posting is ideal, but if they are packaged properly they should be ok. Having said that, I won't post my FBT toadlets.


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

I think you missing my point J and my knickers are firmly on in this open discussion thank you.

Yes we all go to shows and are patrons of our hobby but how does an official meeting/show reflect an eBay auction whereby living animals simply get packed, wrapped and shipped out under torrid conditions...

Shows and breeders meetings are a collective collaboration of like minded enthusiasts and are governed under strict standards.


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## FrogNick (Jul 2, 2009)

you’re not going to get much lining for £3.21! These are tadpoles not froglets, hopefully someone with little experience will get these maybe get a froglet out of it, learn about it and enjoy it.

Unless you’re a vegan the animal products you consume have probably gone through a much worse ordeal than a few tadpoles.. 

let’s not make a mountain out of a mole hill!


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Who says they are getting shipped out in 'torrid conditions'?

Why are you assuming the seller isnt a 'like minded enthusiast'?


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Cornish-J said:


> Who says they are getting shipped out in 'torrid conditions'?
> 
> Why are you assuming the seller isnt a 'like minded enthusiast'?


A. 2-3 days delivery in a sealed package with varied climate fluctuations
B. Like minded enthusiasts would not offsell their offspring on an auction site


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

So long as they are packed suitably, I don't see the problem with this. Odds are far more will survive than if they were all kept crowded together in the 1 rearing tank thanks to been raised in a more 'diluted' environment.

I myself used to sell freshwater shrimp via ebay. They were shipped packed 2 to a small Kordon breathing bag in a box filled with polystyrene loose fill, and where needed a heat pack was used. I then sent them via RM SD. I never had a single complaint of any losses.

Just because somebody is selling animals (incidentally tadpoles and fish fry fall outside of ebay rules, as do invertebrates) does not neccessarily mean that they aren't going to pack them properly. I would however suggest that they should consider charging more for shipping and sending them by SD.

It's not at all shocking though, no different to buying fish, shrimp, snails, stick insects, mantids etc on there. Something I have done myself numerous times (the parents of our black beauty stick insects were from an ebay seller who even gave us a couple of extra insects).

At least they have the sense to thin out their tadpole numbers, as per the usual guidance for species that produce very large numbers of eggs. Would you prefer the usual method of flushing them down the toilet that I am sure many people use? I doubt you would to be honest, at which point it starts to look a more ethical method of thinning numbers as opposed to culling.

Ade


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Lets see what this buyer has to say... more to follow shortly


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Well as I say bud, I agree with you that they need to reconsider their shipping method. I'd also put a note on the description saying they wont be shipped during extremes of weather, which I used to do.

Ade


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

I am quite shocked to hear your view point Ade... being a founding panel member of BAKS.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

What, that I think their shipping choice is off? Or that it's better to sell the tadpoles than flush them down the toilet?

Ade


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

A breeder should not let it go that far tbh! Tads have organs so a breeder must dilute the eggs before they reach this stage.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Playing devils advocate here, but what if you destroy 50% of your eggs, then find 20% of the ones left don't hatch?

Don't get me wrong here, I would never buy tadpoles anyway, nor would I buy frogs to have them shipped. But I am just not shocked, and can't really come up with a justifiable ehtical argument against this that I can equally come up with a justifiable argument against my argument.

But then, I'm not a vegan either. By that I mean that a truly ethical person would not eat animal products etc either, or even keep pets. The rest of us just do the best that we can within our personal ethical codes.

Ade


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

I would rather destroy 50% of the eggs then watch tads swill around the pan!

Maybe I should start eating meat... maybe I should be less judgemental... 

Let's see what the seller comes back with along with his/hers terminology and context.


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## UndergrowthSupplies (Nov 17, 2011)

I have bought quite a few living things over the internet and had them all posted through royal mail. I don't understand what the big deal is. Live fish and aquatic invertebrates can spend 3-4 days in the same unopened bag of water when pet shops (etc.) get new stock in, and nobody ever questions that.

I also don't see the point in contacting the seller. If it was me who was selling, i'd tell you to mind your own business. If you aren't happy with it, don't look for it and don't buy it. Simples


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

There is a seller from USA selling the same tadpoles who would ship over here...
THAT I don't agree with !!!! Live Tadpole Green Tree Frog Aquaruim Pond Koi Fish | eBay


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

REDDEV1L said:


> There is a seller from USA selling the same tadpoles who would ship over here...
> THAT I don't agree with !!!! Live Tadpole Green Tree Frog Aquaruim Pond Koi Fish | eBay


No, that's not on, plus it's completely illegal as I doubt very much that the seller has a zoosanitary certificate, which means it's illegal to import them into the UK.

Ade


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

REDDEV1L said:


> There is a seller from USA selling the same tadpoles who would ship over here...
> THAT I don't agree with !!!! Live Tadpole Green Tree Frog Aquaruim Pond Koi Fish | eBay


Oh god! don't get me started again, I've expressed my views already.


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

yes, yes you have.


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## UndergrowthSupplies (Nov 17, 2011)

REDDEV1L said:


> There is a seller from USA selling the same tadpoles who would ship over here...
> THAT I don't agree with !!!! Live Tadpole Green Tree Frog Aquaruim Pond Koi Fish | eBay


I wonder (hope) if that is a mistake? and the postage just hasn't been changed to say not outside the US? :/


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## ferret1 (Nov 16, 2009)

*shocking*

This guy is doing nothing different to what the traders do pack them up before any show, i was at creaks today and there was small frogs in small tubs you cannot tell me that they was all collected first thing this morning, we all buy live food via the post so whats your probelm:bash:


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

For 3 quid I'd have probably had a punt on these myself seeing as I've not got the energy to breed mine. I think it'd be quite interesting to try and raise them from tads to frogs. I don't have a problem with the selling or shipping method myself.


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Just a quick update for all, I never got a reply from the seller re: postage methods, welfare on packaging or even the ETA... I guess the seller values what is coming into his/hers PayPal more than answering a few Q's.


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

Terrarium Supplies said:


> Just a quick update for all, I never got a reply from the seller re: postage methods, welfare on packaging or even the ETA... I guess the seller values what is coming into his/hers PayPal more than answering a few Q's.


Are you going to message the people that sell crickets, roaches, mantises, stick insects, spiders and fish on ebay as well? I don't understand the point of your crusade tbh. Even Ade, who is the first person to dive in if he spots somebody keeping frogs in unsatisfactory conditions, has said that he has no problems with it as long as they are packed well and are from the UK and not Yankeeland. They're not fully grown frogs so stress can't be an argument against posting tads and their survival chances are going to be far higher when split up. As I said before, I'd have probably bought these myself as I know I can take care of them and raise them properly which, at the end of the day, should be all that concerns us enthusiasts.


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

For all we know mate, 10 year old kids could be buying these under their parents account that know zero about the up keep and welfare of these frogs.


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## FrogNick (Jul 2, 2009)

Terrarium Supplies said:


> For all we know mate, 10 year old kids could be buying these under their parents account that know zero about the up keep and welfare of these frogs.


bare in mind that they would need to raise them first, and to be honest if it gets children interested then its worth it even if the result in the tadpole dying - so what they are not endangered or rare by any stretch. I know of a zoo that destroy dart frogs eggs as they breed too much and of another one that uses tricolor froglets as feeder food for other animals as they breed so much.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Terrarium Supplies said:


> For all we know mate, 10 year old kids could be buying these under their parents account that know zero about the up keep and welfare of these frogs.


Well thats how I got interested in amphibians,not off ebay but by going down to the local pond and catching newts and taking frog spawn.There is nothing wrong with that people have to start somewhere,sure they will have losses. But you cant guarantee that all frogs will survive even when sold to adults.

Sending spawn and tadpoles by the post isn`t illegal as far as I am aware.You are not allowed to send vertebrates.


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

colinm said:


> Well thats how I got interested in amphibians,not off ebay but by going down to the local pond and catching newts and taking frog spawn.There is nothing wrong with that people have to start somewhere,sure they will have losses. But you cant guarantee that all frogs will survive even when sold to adults.
> 
> Sending spawn and tadpoles by the post isn`t illegal as far as I am aware.You are not allowed to send vertebrates.


Exactly how I got in to it, go down the local pond finding frog spawn, rearing tads in to froglets and then releasing them was massively rewarding for an 8 year old. 
If a ten year old kid is interested enough in frogs to hack his parents account to buy 3 quids worth of tads then fair play to them as they're obviously determined enough and interested enough to want to raise them in to frogs.
Mr Terrarium supplies, I'd give up now as you're fighting a losing battle.


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Not here to fight any battles mate as this is an open playing field is it not? I started the topic to air my own views on the matter and gather other keepers views and opinions. Surely it's not about being right or wrong as a forum is a place where we can express such thoughts in a collective and friendly manner? After all, we are all here as we share a passion for these delightful and rewarding species irrelevant if at times we beg to differ.


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

Terrarium Supplies said:


> Not here to fight any battles mate as this is an open playing field is it not? I started the topic to air my own views on the matter and gather other keepers views and opinions. Surely it's not about being right or wrong as a forum is a place where we can express such thoughts in a collective and friendly manner? After all, we are all here as we share a passion for these delightful and rewarding species irrelevant if at times we beg to differ.


It's nothing personal against you, we all have our own opinions and i never said you were wrong to think that but that there's certainly a much stronger case for selling via ebay and posting tads than there is against it. All I would say is that we're up to four pages and nobody else is agreeing with you so posting updates on the seller not replying to you on ebay is probably going to fall on deaf ears.


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