# Quick rodent turn over?



## tomsdragons (Dec 23, 2007)

Hi.

I have wanted to breed my own food, and am ready to take the plunge.

What I'm confused about is what amount (ratio) of rats would I need to have approx 12 pups a week?
I am also interested in multis?? (Sorry about spelling) but I have never seen or used them, are they easier and do royals prefer them?
Do they get a decent size?

Any info would be great.

Regards.


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## tomsdragons (Dec 23, 2007)

Anyone?

Do multis get big enough to feed to adult royals?
And do they produce more offspring??

Regards.


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## Desert Ghost (Nov 16, 2012)

Multis dont grow very big, 150g max and they take AGES to get that big, the plus side is they have massive litters. 

1 female breeder rat per adult snake should see you right for producing enough rats.


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## tomsdragons (Dec 23, 2007)

So would it be better to breed rats?
Or just offer two multis per adult?


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## verity123 (Sep 1, 2010)

I have some royals that only eat multis and I just offer 2 at a time. They do take a while to grow but from my experience, royals seem to grow much better on them. 
Id say definately get some multis, just my opinion though.
Its taken me 18 months to figure out the right amount of rats mice and multis I need to breed without ending up with too many or not enough... :whistling2:


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## tomsdragons (Dec 23, 2007)

So if mine eat rats I may aswell keep them on them.
How long does it take for rats to get to adult size?
And how long from breeding to producing pups?

Many thanks.


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## markhill (Sep 22, 2006)

Rats can have litters at 4 months old and can be 200 grams in 6 months

I think multis are better, they have bigger litters and my snakes grow better on them.
I feed my 8 year old 3.4kg female 1-2 60 gram multis a week.
I figure she's reached her adult size, why do I need to keep plying her with 300 gram rats?

I also find a young snake that is fed a 60 gram multi will grow quicker than a snake that is fed a 60 gram rat.
Their poo isn't as runny, they don't go as often which leads me to believe the snake is using more of the nutrients in a multi than they do rats and less is coming out.

Multis can also reach a good size, I've had them at 170+ grams and I know of a breeder that has a 230 gram multi in his freezer.
They don't start to get to the 100+ gram mark until they've been bred though so just growing on feeders will take a long time but ex-breeders are great for the bigger snakes.

I don't have any rats anymore, I solely breed multis for my royals now.


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## verity123 (Sep 1, 2010)

markhill said:


> Rats can have litters at 4 months old and can be 200 grams in 6 months
> 
> I think multis are better, they have bigger litters and my snakes grow better on them.
> I feed my 8 year old 3.4kg female 1-2 60 gram multis a week.
> ...


100% agree.


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## tomsdragons (Dec 23, 2007)

Thank you for the reply.

I have also been doing some reading and multis do seem a better option for me, the information given has been very helpful so thank you everyone.

I'm getting some multis next week and will see how we get along.
Thanks everyone.


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## jward (Jul 3, 2011)

Y dont you breed both and have a mixture for your royal get best of both worlds 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2


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## kenobi (Sep 15, 2008)

Multis all the way

I agree with mark, my young royals fed on multis look well defined and have great tone and have grown nicely
not saying you don't get that with rats but I find the growth rate better, and there is less wastage from multi feeders

if you breed multis you will find the females will get to a good size
I have a 230gm multi in the freezer, and when culling ex breeding stock im consistently finding females in the 180-200gm range

My adults luv these every other week

I get average litters of 12-16 from first time females up to my record of 24 pinks from one female





took 11 months for the female to get this size and she had 3 litters in that time


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## tomsdragons (Dec 23, 2007)

Thanks kenobi.

I'm going out Sunday to get 5 female multis and a male to get me started.

Thanks again.


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## BBExotics (Jun 29, 2013)

Multi's are so much easier to breed than rats, just keep them in a group and wait for the pinks to come, you don't have to remove the male at any point, my male actually makes a really great dad and I frequently see him grooming the babies and checking on them. 

Plus my royal python used to miss feeds when she was on rats, ever since I put her onto multi's, she hasn't missed one feed and is growing very quickly.

Just be aware that once you put a group together you can't add more individuals, if you need to replace one of the adults, when your male starts to get too old for example, just leave a male baby in and it will take over when it matures. 

Good luck!


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## markhill (Sep 22, 2006)

I've had success adding new males to groups when the previous male gets to old.
When you clean them out put them all into a separate cage, put the new male into a different one with a load of the groups dirty bedding so he gets their smell on him.
Leave them while you clean the cage out and once you have new bedding you can add the group plus the new addition.

You will need to keep an eye on them though as it doesn't always work.
I always keep 2 males per group just in case though.
Once both males are done the whole group gets retired and a:lol2: new one setup in its place.


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## tomsdragons (Dec 23, 2007)

Thank you both for the advice.

I shall be getting some today and see how we get along.
Hopefully it will be cheaper and more convenient!
Regards.


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## kenobi (Sep 15, 2008)

Just remember you will need another tub to grow on a new breeding group
I have 3 litters per female then the group gets culled
I have a new group standing by to take over

due to length of time to get to breeding, good way to make sure you don't have a few months with no production


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## dcap (Sep 3, 2011)

tomsdragons said:


> Thank you both for the advice.
> 
> I shall be getting some today and see how we get along.
> Hopefully it will be cheaper and more convenient!
> Regards.


I only have mice (at the mo), but will probably be getting multis in the spring when I have the demand for them.

I find with the mice, its not just about the cost (and arguably with mice it might not be all that cost effective, with multis is certainly a financial benefit compared to buying multis/rats from a shop). I can get mice pinks/fluffs/smalls ... at the size I need! Shops tend to sell 2g mice pinks and 6g fluffies. Which makes switching up food sizes a nightmare for pinkie eating small colubrids, I can now have the 3-4g mice I need. I can feed multiple small mice instead of mediums for my sand boa that goesn't have a very big gape. 

Its also about quality (you know how long they've been in the freezer, et.c) - but you do need the time to clean them out and look after them. Mice smell. 

Someone above said it took 18 months to figure out how many to breed! I can believe that!! I aim to have "up until the end of next month"s food already sorted in the freezer. So breed more than you need, if you have a reptile buddy any spares will be much appreciated! 

Certainly looking forward to getting multis in. I switched to feeding them recently (taken frozen from 3x breeders on the forum, 2x in this thread). And only my biggest BCI will need rats now, and soon my blood. I'll aim to be self-sufficient for all the others.


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## antony1986 (Oct 5, 2011)

I've just started breeding and have 4 breeding groups and 21 babies so far that are about to be weened and used and breeders to. Not sure how many multies I need to breed to keep my 6 royals feed week to week without problems of running out. I have 8 racks to breed at the moment and plan on keeping 5 females to one male or 2 please answer this should I have 2 males in or one. Also I have a large 50litre rub to keep all feeders in. 

So questions 

1 or 2 males in per breeder groups ?
How many multies do I need for 1 royal ? 
Where can I get really cheap beeding and food ? 
Do they need the aspan ??? Or just news paper ???
What age can they leave there moms as at 3 weeks they are eating and drinking ?


Final question is there anyone in the west midlands that can swop out a few of my multies for there's as I don't really want to inter breed them tbh 

Will give you a female with 10 babies for a female of yours and 10 babies


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## Desert Ghost (Nov 16, 2012)

Personally if there was any possibility i might sell any snakes in future, i would leave those snakes on rats.

I wouldnt worry about inbreeding them mate, its standard practice, they are already as inbred as they are going to get.


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## BBExotics (Jun 29, 2013)

One male will get the job done and will reduce the risk of the males fighting if you have 2, sometimes they do fight, sometimes they don't, it all depends on your males, but personally I would stick with one per breeding group.

I have one royal and a 1:1 pair of multi's, this gives my royal enough food without worrying about running out, they usually have between 5 and 8 babies per litter.

You could have a look on freecycle in your area for free bedding/food if someone has recently got rid of a pet, its a long shot but you never know, I got a massive bag of sawdust for free! Other than that you could try ebay or petplanet.co.uk do a 10kg sack of dust free wood shavings for £11, which should last you a while, at least a couple of months I would imagine, here's the link; Pettex Chippets Woodchips on Sale | Free UK Delivery | PetPlanet.co.uk

I'm not sure where to get cheap food from, I feed mine a 50/50 mix of dry cat food and rabbit food (high protein, low fat), but that would get really pricey if you had loads to feed.

They need some sort of bedding material like aspen or wood shavings, they need to build nests for their babies, if you just put them straight on newspaper you will probably loose a lot of babies from them getting too cold, it doesn't have to be a thick layer of bedding, but it has to be something.

At 3 weeks they just start to eat by themselves, but they are not fully weaned until 4 weeks, they can safely leave their mum after they have been weaned. I know a lot of people on here would say when you see them eating then they must be ready to leave their mum, but trust me you will have much stronger babies that will grow better if you just leave them that extra week, when they have been fully weaned.

As for inbreeding, Desert Ghost is right, it is standard practice. It's always good to get new blood into your groups but I wouldn't worry about it too much. Try to get in contact with another breeder near you then you can do swops at each generation, bring new blood in, but doesn't cost anything, win win : victory:

Hope this helps and good luck


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## antony1986 (Oct 5, 2011)

I've already got two new bloodlines from 2 seprate people. The first set was really small and the babies she had where very small also. The second where much larger and the babies she had where much larger too. So was not sure if the first guy had interbreed them to course this or maybe she was a new mom I never though to ask at the time. The bigger mom had a runt and I switched him/her over to the small set but it looked very strage so fed it off. Also found that one of the moms babies where going missing so decided to remove them one babies head was really swollen like one of the colony had bit down but never killed it. I left it with her to see it would be ok the next day it had gone so figured the mom thought it wouldent suvive. 

Ok next question 

Has anyone done anything into selective breeding either taking the biggest of babies and breed them and so on to get super big multies or is this not possible or making there new colours veriations, Or maybe somthing else


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## BBExotics (Jun 29, 2013)

Multi's grow really slowly, so the smaller ones are probably just younger. I had one female multi that I realised was eating her babies and my other females, so I removed her, and now the pair are doing fine. Some younger mums will eat babies if they are stressed or if their food doesn't have enough protein in. 

I have only selectively bred for colour because the full white ones always look like lab rats to me, I prefer the ones with markings on :blush: Selective breeding can be done with anything, if you breed only the bigger ones you will be more likely to get bigger babies, but don't expect this to happen overnight, they still have different gene combinations that can cause small babies. Think of it like breeding a spinner blast to a bumblebee, statistically you have a good chance of getting awesome multi-gene hatchlings but you still have a 1/32 chance of getting a normal.


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## antony1986 (Oct 5, 2011)

Bit off topic but carnt wait to see what I get from my butterbee and kingspin pairing


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## jackiee (Jul 4, 2010)

I have quite a few breeding trios of multi`s, I keep mine in lucky reptile cages, on aspen. they do have large litters but not all the time, I average about 10 to 12 per litter. they are slow growing so I feed my snakes every 5 days instead of every 7 days. multi`s will eat rabbit food, dog food, pig pellets, broth mix, pasta, rice and plenty of fruit and veg. I have just bought some rats to breed for my larger royals as I can feed 1 rat per week. to be honest I think that young snakes and sub adults and small adults are better on multi`s and larger snakes are better off on rats, as you don't kneed so many feeders due to there different sizes. :lol2:


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## antony1986 (Oct 5, 2011)

Yep I'm just about to get two rats to breed to. A new mother had only 3 babies the other day. But there are 4 females to 1 male so I'm sure there will be much more soon


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## talltom69 (Dec 8, 2006)

I breed a colony of rats and multis to fill in the gap of the rats growing.

I get about 60-80 rats per month from a 1.3 / 1.3 / 1.2 group and around 30/40 multis from a 1.4 group.

Multis are great as they never get refused, but do take a while to grow which sucks.

I will be trying a growing on tub to see how they do in that


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## kenobi (Sep 15, 2008)

I have 6 x groups of multis I keep in the biggest lucky reptile cages 
2:4 multis per group 

I average between 40 - 50 pinkies per group at a time 

I feed a cereal based animal feed mixed with bird seed and layers pellets and I don't get any pinkies eaten 

As for slow growing, I wean at 4 weeks and separate sexes. Males can hit 45-50 gms 2 to 3 weeks after feeding.


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