# Animals off DWA



## Nursey (Feb 27, 2005)

Jay just rang me to tell me the news about Defra and the DWA 
i,m a happy bunny as i can now look to get my squirrel monkey:mf_dribble:

Heres the defra list bulletin
Defra, UK - News - Information bulletin 2007 - Changes to the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976 – revision to Schedule of Controlled Species


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

OH NO

dont tell my boyfriend he is desperate for one of these ...


they are very sweet

http://www.kellyfowler.com/blog/uploaded_images/squirrel_monkey-743427.jpg


----------



## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

Out of curiosity...

what kind of enclosuse do you think is suitable for keeping one in captivity?


I really disagree with a lot of the mammals coming off DWA 

Mason


----------



## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

you may disagree mason but it frightens the piss out of me.


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

How much would a pair of these cost they are adorable


----------



## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

they are also (IMO naturally :roll completely and totally unsuitable for captivity in all but the very very best (and of course richest) hands.

It's almost impossible to provide an enclosure in the average UK home/garden to keep these kinds of primates in the right conditions .

Hence my question.

Mason


----------



## tombraider (May 6, 2006)

I remember a neighbour having one of these around 20 years ago sat in the window all day in a little bird cage


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*I agree with Mason*

Mason is right, many of the animals that have come off the license should never have come off - ever.

We do not have a regulation now of animals that should have been regulated , even for the sake of public safety it was still within a regulation.

Now way too many keepers that held them previously without license will sell at stupid prices, damaging the genuine keepers market. Plus to boot inexperienced keepers with too much money and very little sense or knowledge of research will place pro keepers into potential peril for the future of keeping.

R
PKL


----------



## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

Nursey said:


> Jay just rang me to tell me the news about Defra and the DWA
> i,m a happy bunny as i can now look to get my squirrel monkey:mf_dribble:


sorry one thing I did not mention in my first post.. you do realise they *must* be kept in groups as well as needing huge indoor AND outdoor enclosures?

Mason


----------



## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

there is a piece in the times about this today..

see if you can spot anyone we know..

Pet owners can take a walk on wild side - Times Online

incidently.. tska will only sell primates in pairs, or as compainion animals to one kept already. Strict vetting is followed. Its not recomended to keep one as a "house pet" nappys, outfits, leads, indoors, playing with the family.. all not good..

taking on a primate of any size is not something to be taken lightly, tska have been critisiced before for being too strict on vetting, but thats life.. we have a name for being one of the hardest sellers on vetting in the UK. 

BUT... our breeders like it.. some of them deal only with us because of it.

for something like a squirrel monkey, you would be looking at an enclosure of 20x30x8.. and they would need to be with their own kind. 

(and yes, i am getting this sort of info from our breeders as i have not kept them personally) 

as Rory says, primates are not pets, they are primates.. 

its a different league to a pet skunk, or pet kinkajou or something like that..

sorry to be so negative. but i really do not believe that primates of any sort should come off the DWA - and thats for the animals sake, not the humans! until something better than the DWA comes along, it is all we have afterall. i do not think keepers should be able to just buy one like they would a kitten.. they are worlds apart and should remain so.

Nerys

TSKA, as one of the UK's "primate sellers" will not be treating things any differently now some species are off

you will be required to undertake a rigerous vetting procedure, and only sold animals who will be kept in groups with their own kind, in suitable outdoor accomodation. 

no ifs. no buts. no maybes. no do it right = no sale


----------



## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Mason is right, many of the animals that have come off the license should never have come off - ever.
> 
> We do not have a regulation now of animals that should have been regulated , even for the sake of public safety it was still within a regulation.
> 
> ...


I personally believe that most primates should be available to zoos (or simlar) ONLY and even then they should be vetted to ensure they have adequate space and stimulation. After all the tag "zoo" does not necessarily mean that they have lots of space. Only in highly exceptional circumstances should private individuals be allowed to keep them.

for example, if David beckham decides he wants a *GROUP* of squirrel monkeys it's not problem for him to chuck up a secure, entertaining 60x60x30 (FOOT) outdoor enclosure and another large indoor enclosure, and employ people to look after them.

your average three bed semi owner however will struggle.

Mason


----------



## RoninUK (Aug 30, 2007)

quixotic_axolotl said:


> Out of curiosity...
> 
> 
> I really disagree with a lot of the mammals coming off DWA
> ...


I am really pleased that Kinkajous and Coatis are coming off - compared to a decent sized dog they are no real threat. I kept a rescue coati for years (with a DWA) and she was really sweet :smile:. In terms of armament she would not be more dangerous than a corgie or a medium sized terrier.

The thinking behind the revisions is just that - take off animals no more dangerous than a dog because the Act was held in such contempt and widely ignored. It used to tick me off no end that I had to have a licence and special insurance for an animal that never left my premises but a neighbour could walk the streets with a Mamelute or Rhodesian Ridgeback which was potentially far more dangerous.

Of course that doesn't mean people should assume that all the species are now suitable as pets but it was never the purpose of the Act to restrict keeping unsuitable species - just dangerous ones.

Mark


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

growing up, my best friend Haiti, had a squirrel monkey. it was a great, well adjusted member of his family. they would put a belt/collar around his waist with a long lead attached to the wall. this was on their kitchen table. he had his own BIG cage but during the day he would be on the table. that's where everybody visited so he could jump around and interact with everybody. he was smart and never got tangled in the lead. he was never viscious just as friendly as can be. they had him for years! they were cheap back then. the leash was just a precaution. he loved me. a great little guy. they always had good, nutritious treats for him. of course we always got to talking and he always wanted to be the center of attention. he seemed to thrive on the interaction. a nice, perfect monkey. i used to be visited by them in my camps in costa rica. they were always curious to what i was doing. the whole troop would follow me around the forest and peek at me shyly. they are great but you have to be devoted to them. just thought you'd like to hear my story with them. p.s. they had a big bay window next to the table so he could see the trees and us playing. he would anticipate us walking in and always wanted to be held. cool when he sat on your shoulder and groomed your hair.


----------



## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

At the end of the day, it is unfortunate that removal of the DWA seems for some people to think that this makes them suitable pets.

It is important that people remember (or learn), that DWA is not about a list of what you can keep as a pet. It is not a list of what is suitable to be kept as a pet. It is purely a list designed to restrict keeping animals that could post a risk to the general public.

There may well be many exotic animals that are not "dangerous". This does not mean that they are suited to captivity, make good pets, or are even obtainable, due to conservation, import, or costs....

I just hope that people do not see the removals and think "great, I can keep that as a pet now" because DWA is not, and never has been, a list of animals that has anything to do with petlike suitability.

No comment on primates here, I know nothing about them


----------



## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

well said tho christy!

we so need a new DWA.. i would say a we need a Private Keepers Licence.. but the initials might get confused with something else lol

tho i dunno, maybe PKL should fight for a PKL... someone has to..

N


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*..........*

I actually think that more damage is done to the exotics fraternity by those who continually refer to 'exotic species' as pets in the first place.

They are exotic species maintained within a collection, and should not be classed as pets at all.

IMO

R
PKL


----------



## Nursey (Feb 27, 2005)

Firstly i had enquired/researched when they were on the DWA of what they would need and the space required, a large enclosure the bigger the better min 12'x12x'12 and seeing as my garden is nigh on 60ftx30ft and thats just the lower half i think i have space for a very large enclosure,with the indoor/heated area aswell They can be kept on their own but prefer and healithier to be in groups of 2 or more.

I didnt just think ooh i want a monkey, i had done my research for last 2 years on them, I,m not that stupid:x

good to see this site hasnt changed


----------



## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

> I didnt just think ooh i want a monkey, i had done my research for last 2 years on them, I,m not that stupid:-x


you might not be.. but an awful of the enquires TSKA get about primates, are from people who are! Rory even gets the phone slammed down on him for refusing to sell to some people.

its what the vetting procedure is there for tracy - to get rid of any one who is unsuitable

N


----------



## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Out of interest are you intending to keep them as a visual attraction (as one would an aviary with birds) or are you hoping to be able to pet them? Are they captive bred in the UK?


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Nursey, the..*

...difference is you have researched into the primates.

So many will see this as the perfect example of being able to now willy nilly go and buy from a seller who may or may not have been licensed in the first place.

And many sellers will only be looking to line their pockets and will sell to those whom have never undertaken any kind of research at all and have just thought 'oh boy now l can geet me a reeel monkey!'

And that is my argument.

The DWA was only about public saftey not about the animals welfare.

We need something out there that regulates keepers.

For all the good your research will do you when an average joey bloggs walks out there and hey presto buys himself a 'reeel monkey' and somewhere down the line will get bored and discard it to a shelter or rescue centre and you multiply that by whatever and then all of the genuine keepers will suffer for this legislation flaw of non recognition that something else was needed in the first place to replace or act alongside the current DWA.

Plus to boot, l am guessing your 12x12 was the guideline laid down by the DWA? For as you are probably aware, not big enough. I was recommended 4x4x4 for an adult racoon, yeah right like that is acceptable?

You have researched, many will not.

R
PKL


----------



## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

Nursey said:


> Firstly i had enquired/researched when they were on the DWA of what they would need and the space required, a large enclosure the bigger the better min 12'x12x'12 and seeing as my garden is nigh on 60ftx30ft and thats just the lower half i think i have space for a very large enclosure,with the indoor/heated area aswell They can be kept on their own but prefer and healithier to be in groups of 2 or more.
> 
> I didnt just think ooh i want a monkey, i had done my research for last 2 years on them, I,m not that stupid:x
> 
> good to see this site hasnt changed


 
Calm down...

We weren't discussing YOU but the *general* suitability of primates as "pets".

My first post was a simple question about enclosure size..which you have now answered.

Mason


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> I actually think that more damage is done to the exotics fraternity by those who continually refer to 'exotic species' as pets in the first place.
> 
> They are exotic species maintained within a collection, and should not be classed as pets at all.
> 
> ...


 
i do agree. many people have surpassed the level of pet keeper and are doing things that are cutting edge and zoo quality. a test of ones knowlege and experience is perfectly fine to vet a keeper that wants to get certified. lazy, non-passionate people should not keep certain things. here in america, any yahoo with some big bucks can get something truly exotic and demanding. i hate when those tigers and lions get loose in the neighborhood.


----------



## Nursey (Feb 27, 2005)

Yeah i can see your point there Nerys
I knew about the vetting procedure thats why i done all the research on them and made sure i had the space available,and knew what specialised diet they would require ,i also know there are some out there that just want it cos they look cute and cuddly and the wow factor like with reps..


----------



## RoninUK (Aug 30, 2007)

HABU said:


> i do agree. many people have surpassed the level of pet keeper and are doing things that are cutting edge and zoo quality. a test of ones knowlege and experience is perfectly fine to vet a keeper that wants to get certified. lazy, non-passionate people should not keep certain things. here in america, any yahoo with some big bucks can get something truly exotic and demanding. i hate when those tigers and lions get loose in the neighborhood.


The problem is getting someone competent to test the knowledge. The Vet who "vetted" me for my DWA had no knowledge of Coatis or exotics at all - he was completely guided by a brief I prepared for him - complete with print -offs from the web and contact numbers for various collections around the UK (Chester and Edinburgh Zoos and the Cotswold Wildlife Park) which kept coatis and which I had consulted for advice. Having met (and fallen in love with) Bungle he then recommended terms for my licence which the council accepted - but which I have subsequently been told were illegal. I was allowed to take her out in my garden on a harness and leash as long as she did not leave the boundary of my premises.

I am all for a system to stop unsuitable owners getting hold of exotics but it has to involve credible, knowledgeable people running it or it will simply be ignored - as the DWA largely was.

Mark


----------



## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

> I am all for a system to stop unsuitable owners getting hold of exotics but it has to involve credible, knowledgeable people running it or it will simply be ignored - as the DWA largely was.


it does make you wonder who defra consulted doesn't it... i'd love to have been a fly on the wall at that one..

N


----------



## lampropeltis (Jun 21, 2007)

they need to sort buthidae out !!big time!!


----------



## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I dont think they should be unavailable for private keepers at all, I do agree they need a high level of care and attention, but whats to say a good private keepers is going to do any worse a job than a zoo?? they should be licensed and vetted, much the same as the DWA. I see birds as the same in a way, I personally think its no fairer to keep a parrot in a little cage on its own than it is a primate, but its done all the time.


----------



## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

Nerys said:


> it does make you wonder who defra consulted doesn't it... i'd love to have been a fly on the wall at that one..
> 
> N


list of animals stuck to wall, throw darts at it. collect £X000 consultancy fee. retire to pub.

Mason


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

SiUK said:


> I dont think they should be unavailable for private keepers at all, I do agree they need a high level of care and attention, but whats to say a good private keepers is going to do any worse a job than a zoo?? they should be licensed and vetted, much the same as the DWA. I see birds as the same in a way, I personally think its no fairer to keep a parrot in a little cage on its own than it is a primate, but its done all the time.


 
believe me, a moluccan cockatoo will not be caged. it will be the center of your life!! they keep you!!:grin1:


----------



## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

lampropeltis said:


> they need to sort buthidae out !!big time!!


yeh definately theres scorpians on there that shouldnt be and pose no danger, but because of some of the more potent buthidae they get tarred with the same brush.

Habu-I heard some birds are quite "demanding" and thats just the feathered ones


----------



## RoninUK (Aug 30, 2007)

Nerys said:


> it does make you wonder who defra consulted doesn't it... i'd love to have been a fly on the wall at that one..
> 
> N


I believe the original consultancy exercise was carried out by one of the partners at David Taylor's vetinary practice which specialises in exotics and services zoos and animal collections worldwide. (some of you might remember the ZooVet TV series that was based on Taylors books.) Their report was particularly concerned that the Act was being used to discourage or regulate the keeping of Exotic species - which was no part of the purpose of the Bill - and that had discredited the Act and led to it being widely ignored.

I understand one of the reasons DEFRA did the review was that legal advice suggested the DWA was vulnerable to legal challenge since it was being used in a way other than that for which it was approved by Parliament- and in particular that the tendency of some local councils to charge very high fees to discourage keeping of exotics was unsupportable - they were only allowed to recover their costs under the Act. 

The amendments were delayed long after the report and the close of the consultancy period to synchronise them with other animal welfare legislation which they hoped would cover issues of adequate care and husbandry of species with special needs - though I doubt that myself .

Mark


----------



## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

To be fair though primates aren't really "dangerous wild animals", no more than other commonly kept pets are anyway...so should they really require a "Dangerous Wild Animal" liscence? I think it makes sense that mammals are coming off but I do agree that they should require some sort of liscencing . In fact...I think a lot of pets, even some of the common ones should require liscencing (if done properly by knowledgable people).

I don't think its fair to say private keepers should be automatically excluded from ever keeping animals like these just because they aren't a zoo...there are quite a few people out there (either the rich, or not not so rich who give up other comforts to dedicate they time and money to their animals) who can provide for these animals suitably...so if liscencing was brought in why should they be excluded?

Lastly...for people who say "oh, if this or that animal came off the DWA I'd get one!" (btw. this isn't directed at the original poster  sorry). Well as far as I understand at the moment you can keep DWA animals here as long as you get a liscence (which you get by being able to show you can provide the correct environment)...so surely if you lack something crucial to that animal environmentally now to stop you getting a DWA, it will still be lacking when the animal comes off the list :??


----------



## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

RoninUK said:


> I believe the original consultancy exercise was carried out by one of the partners at David Taylor's vetinary practice which specialises in exotics and services zoos and animal collections worldwide. (some of you might remember the ZooVet TV series that was based on Taylors books.) Their report was particularly concerned that the Act was being used to discourage or regulate the keeping of Exotic species - which was no part of the purpose of the Bill - and that had discredited the Act and led to it being widely ignored.
> 
> I understand one of the reasons DEFRA did the review was that legal advice suggested the DWA was vulnerable to legal challenge since it was being used in a way other than that for which it was approved by Parliament- and in particular that the tendency of some local councils to charge very high fees to discourage keeping of exotics was unsupportable - they were only allowed to recover their costs under the Act.
> 
> ...


Interesting post mate, so now am I reading it right councils are not allowed to charge ridiculous fees?


----------



## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

RoninUK said:


> I believe the original consultancy exercise was carried out by one of the partners at David Taylor's vetinary practice which specialises in exotics and services zoos and animal collections worldwide. (some of you might remember the ZooVet TV series that was based on Taylors books.) Their report was particularly concerned that the Act was being used to discourage or regulate the keeping of Exotic species - which was no part of the purpose of the Bill - and that had discredited the Act and led to it being widely ignored.
> 
> I understand one of the reasons DEFRA did the review was that legal advice suggested the DWA was vulnerable to legal challenge since it was being used in a way other than that for which it was approved by Parliament- and in particular that the tendency of some local councils to charge very high fees to discourage keeping of exotics was unsupportable - they were only allowed to recover their costs under the Act.
> 
> ...


Interesting post mate, so now am I reading it right councils are not allowed to charge ridiculous fees?


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

SiUK said:


> yeh definately theres scorpians on there that shouldnt be and pose no danger, but because of some of the more potent buthidae they get tarred with the same brush.
> 
> Habu-I heard some birds are quite "demanding" and thats just the feathered ones


 
ha ha! we only have chicks here!! or old birds!!:lol2:


----------



## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

SiUK said:


> Interesting post mate, so now am I reading it right councils are not allowed to charge ridiculous fees?


Yes and no...

recover costs..that is the key phrase.

how hard do you imagine it would be for a council to generate a bill of £1500 for instance? Maybe ludicrously high vets fees, or the good old fashioned "administration costs".

Mason


----------



## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

quixotic_axolotl said:


> Yes and no...
> 
> recover costs..that is the key phrase.
> 
> ...


yeh that does leave it a bit open to interpretation, I believe one council was charging as much as £3000 I remember it being talked about on captivebred, im lucky in the fact that it costs £90 + vets fees, if it cost £1000+ that would definately price me out of a chance to keep anything DWA.


----------



## RoninUK (Aug 30, 2007)

SiUK said:


> Interesting post mate, so now am I reading it right councils are not allowed to charge ridiculous fees?


I don't know if it has been settled yet but I believe the original consultancy report suggested setting fees which should be applied nationally within a set range and, if I remember rightly. it was pretty low . That was partly to stop Councils trying to defeat the spirit of the ruling by inflating cost artificially with "overheads" or unrealistic expenses charges. One of the arguments was that high fees didn't discourage the keeping of DWA species - jut the licensing of them.

I used to have a copy of the entire consultancy report somewhere. It was available from the DEFRA website during the consultancy period but seemed to have disappeared the last time I looked.

Mark


----------



## LeeH (Jan 26, 2005)

i think most the animals cage needs would far exceed the normal home especially kinkajous and coatimundis from looking at guides like this
http://www.ehsni.gov.uk/txt/procyonidsa5leaflet.pdf
i have no experience with any of the animals discussed but from reading guides above 50ft squred is bigger than average room


----------



## RoninUK (Aug 30, 2007)

rankindude2 said:


> i think most the animals cage needs would far exceed the normal home especially kinkajous and coatimundis from looking at guides like this
> http://www.ehsni.gov.uk/txt/procyonidsa5leaflet.pdf
> i have no experience with any of the animals discussed but from reading guides above 50ft squared is bigger than average room


Interesting document. I think the recommended minimum is 50 square feet -so 10ft X 5 ft and minimum of 6ft high which most gardens or a decent sized room could hold but really a much bigger enclosure would be better and female coatis in particular should be kept in family groups. It also has to be totally escape proofed - they are sooo smart and operating doorhandles, bolts etc is no problem for them. Loads of toys and stimulation needed too - they are as smart as a toddler and need a lot of keeping amused.

My rescue girl could not be reintroduced to a group because she would have been killed (they won't accept new adult members) so she lived in my conservatory (16ft x 10ft) within which she had her own cage just to give her a private bedroom space she could feel secure in. When we were at home she had the run of the house and was regularly out in the garden on a harness and leash to find her own worms and snails and just nose around generally. 

Definitely not for everyone but they are a delight to deal with if you are able to put in the effort and meet their needs . 

Mark


----------



## LeeH (Jan 26, 2005)

and most of the animals diet needs isn't exactly put a bowl of food down and all done like with cats and dogs..some guides ive seen on things like sugar gliders and others need levels of things just right (Ca levels i think) and its not like put in some fruit and hope for the best as not getting it right could make the animal very sick


----------



## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I wouldnt really want to see anymore licences etc imposed on keepers. I would like to see people selling monkeys etc taking more care and notice of who they are selling to though.


----------



## RoninUK (Aug 30, 2007)

rankindude2 said:


> and most of the animals diet needs isn't exactly put a bowl of food down and all done like with cats and dogs..some guides ive seen on things like sugar gliders and others need levels of things just right (Ca levels i think) and its not like put in some fruit and hope for the best as not getting it right could make the animal very sick


Cats and Dogs need a balanced diets too - it is just commercially available in a pre prepared form. A lot of cats suffered badly because of poor formulation of some of the early dry cat foods. There are a number of pre- prepared constituents of exotic diets also available and some excellent care and diet sheets available too. 

Certainly it takes a more care and prepation to look after an exotic but it is perfectly practical (for some species) - for those willing to make the effort. Those that aren't willing to make the effort to find out about and meet their "pets" needs shouldn't have any whether it is an exotic or a moggy..


----------

