# has ayone else used the sog shipserers techniques to any success?



## Barney_M (Apr 2, 2008)

after reading several of the dog whisperer, cesar milans, books i tried a few of his techniques out and started getting some success. I was then lucky enough to meet him and ask a few questions about hsi techniques and now i have almost eprfected tem and am having great success not just with my own dogs but with the rest of my familys dogs in getting them to stop some behaviour and/or listen to me.
does anyone else try any of his methods and does anyone else have any success?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

you met Cesar Milan?


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## Barney_M (Apr 2, 2008)

yes sir


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

He came to Peterboro'?


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## Barney_M (Apr 2, 2008)

no, i went to california


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

were you meet him at one of his talks?


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## Barney_M (Apr 2, 2008)

you can visit his dog rehabilitation centre and i was lucky enough to go on a day he was around so i said hi and we had a little chat. I met 'Daddy' too of course


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## JackieL (May 19, 2009)

I can whole heartedly say his techniques work!

We have a 5 year old female patterdale terrier who is a tad head strong shall we say :lol2:... Using his techniques has made a vast difference in her behaviour and within the home environment itself.

I am soooooooooo jealous you met my hero Mr Millan himself!!! Lucky you!!!


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

I haven't and wouldn't try his techinques. 

However, they are not something to be tried byt he lay person, as there can be serious 'side effects' for the dog, andyou risk being bittem aswell, depending on what you are trying. I dont' agree with his techniques at all, but if they are to be used, it is by someone who knows what they are doing, not a 'layperson' who had read a few books.


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## Barney_M (Apr 2, 2008)

JackieL said:


> I can whole heartedly say his techniques work!
> 
> We have a 5 year old female patterdale terrier who is a tad head strong shall we say :lol2:... Using his techniques has made a vast difference in her behaviour and within the home environment itself.
> 
> I am soooooooooo jealous you met my hero Mr Millan himself!!! Lucky you!!!


hes a cool bloke, really friendly.



midori said:


> I haven't and wouldn't try his techinques.
> 
> However, they are not something to be tried byt he lay person, as there can be serious 'side effects' for the dog, andyou risk being bittem aswell, depending on what you are trying. I dont' agree with his techniques at all, but if they are to be used, it is by someone who knows what they are doing, not a 'layperson' who had read a few books.


i understand what your saying but i do us his techniques and i have had success. my dogs still like me, they come to me for attention still, they just listen and dont have any annoying habits anymore.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

midori said:


> I haven't and wouldn't try his techinques.
> 
> However, they are not something to be tried byt he lay person, as there can be serious 'side effects' for the dog, andyou risk being bittem aswell, depending on what you are trying. I dont' agree with his techniques at all, but if they are to be used, it is by someone who knows what they are doing, not a 'layperson' who had read a few books.


Totally agree. If people with no training were supposed to have a go, it wouldn't have a warning on his show about how not to try this at home.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

midori said:


> I haven't and wouldn't try his techinques.
> 
> However, they are not something to be tried byt he lay person, as there can be serious 'side effects' for the dog, andyou risk being bittem aswell, depending on what you are trying. I dont' agree with his techniques at all, but if they are to be used, it is by someone who knows what they are doing, not a 'layperson' who had read a few books.


Hear hear :no1:

Not sure I'd have someone who's been done for animal abuse as my "hero" either lol.


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

I think hes great, especially because he treats all dogs as 'dogs' and doesnt go by the breeds, he must be doing something right seing the huge pack he has! But as always not everyone will agree and feel the same : victory:
also if its working for your dogs and others then why not use the methods?:2thumb:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

LOL you're absolutely right of course, everyone has a choice but when someone suggests Milan's tactics on Joe Public's dogs I can onl giggle in my head at the idea of the outcome of slapping, hanging, or alpha rolling a nervous aggressive rottweiler for example. Somehow think his insurance won't cover him getting sued for manslaughter lol. Mind you, if people are daft enough to try it it makes sense to eliminate them from the gene pool. :Na_Na_Na_Na:: victory::lol2:


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

KathyM said:


> LOL you're absolutely right of course, everyone has a choice but when someone suggests Milan's tactics on Joe Public's dogs I can onl giggle in my head at the idea of the outcome of slapping, hanging, or alpha rolling a nervous aggressive rottweiler for example. Somehow think his insurance won't cover him getting sued for manslaughter lol. Mind you, if people are daft enough to try it it makes sense to eliminate them from the gene pool. :Na_Na_Na_Na:: victory::lol2:


 :lol2: ive never seen him slap a dog or hang a dog and have seen him save nervous, destructive and viscious dogs from being pts by changing their behaviour


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

I didnt see the Titanic go down but it sure as hell happened.Just a little research on Google will tell you all you need to know about Mr Milan


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## Barney_M (Apr 2, 2008)

i know he has had some law suits but i didnt think he was that bad?! he cant be that bad or he wouldnt have his dog cnetre and tv show still?
i also didnt know he had been done for animal cruelty - i will have to go and look it all up.
othr than that he is a nice bloke and in person you can;t help but like him.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

sophs87 said:


> :lol2: ive never seen him slap a dog or hang a dog and have seen him save nervous, destructive and viscious dogs from being pts by changing their behaviour


Of course, it's called TV editing lol. If you google his name, you'll see he doesn't hold much standing with real dog trainers, nor with animal welfare organisations. I believe a dog was walked to death on a treadmill, another was strangled to unconsciousness and another was thrown in a pool? Not really humane methods....


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Hear hear :no1:
> 
> Not sure I'd have someone who's been done for animal abuse as my "hero" either lol.


+1



Barney_M said:


> i know he has had some law suits but i didnt think he was that bad?! *he cant be that bad or he wouldnt have his dog cnetre and tv show still?*
> i also didnt know he had been done for animal cruelty - i will have to go and look it all up.
> othr than that he is a nice bloke and in person you can;t help but like him.


Him having the centre and show is nothing to do with knowledge and experience, its run on money....!


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## JackieL (May 19, 2009)

KathyM said:


> Hear hear :no1:
> 
> Not sure I'd have someone who's been done for animal abuse as my "hero" either lol.


Define 'animal cruelty' ?


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

KathyM said:


> Hear hear :no1:
> 
> Not sure I'd have someone who's been done for animal abuse as my "hero" either lol.


I agree. 


sophs87 said:


> :lol2: ive never seen him slap a dog or hang a dog and have seen him save nervous, destructive and viscious dogs from being pts by changing their behaviour


Haven't seen these then? 



















Taken from here:

Cesar Millan - The Dog Whisperer: Critics Answers



Barry.M said:


> I didnt see the Titanic go down but it sure as hell happened.Just a little research on Google will tell you all you need to know about Mr Milan


:lol2: 

Yes, but that's just people 'jealous' of his success, don'tcha know?! :whistling2:

The problem is, the signs of psychological stress on a dog can be very subtle, and the average person doesn't pick up on that.


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## JackieL (May 19, 2009)

Incidentally - 'being sued' does not confirm these allegations to be true.

We are all entitled to our own opinion. End of.


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

I guess I'm old fashioned but as far as dog training goes I'm all for rewarding the good behaviour and showing displeasure at the bad.No violence,just a sharp "AH!" or "No!" is all I've ever needed to use.


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## JackieL (May 19, 2009)

Barry.M said:


> I guess I'm old fashioned but as far as dog training goes I'm all for rewarding the good behaviour and showing displeasure at the bad.No violence,just a sharp "AH!" or "No!" is all I've ever needed to use.


Which are basic Cesar Millan methods.... :whistling2:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

If you add an electric shock collar, choke chain and a poke in the face....


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## Rum_Kitty (Jun 14, 2009)

Barry.M said:


> I guess I'm old fashioned but as far as dog training goes I'm all for rewarding the good behaviour and showing displeasure at the bad.No violence,just a sharp "AH!" or "No!" is all I've ever needed to use.


Your sig pic is mesmerising. I've just spent the last five minutes staring at it. :gasp:

I am not a fan of Cesar Millan or his methods, certain parts of his training advice doesnt sit well with me, but then I have never had any particularly dominant or overbearing dog that needed to be put in their place. Just soppy spaniels :lol2:. But i guess there must be a good reason why everyone loves him.


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## JackieL (May 19, 2009)

KathyM said:


> If you add an electric shock collar, choke chain and a poke in the face....


Electric shock collars - extreme cases, red zone dogs, = electric collar or lethal injection..... what would you chose?

Choke chains - If used CORRECTLY do not harm the animal.

Poke in the face - Can't say I've seen that.....


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

JackieL said:


> Define 'animal cruelty' ?





JackieL said:


> Incidentally - 'being sued' does not confirm these allegations to be true.
> 
> We are all entitled to our own opinion. End of.





JackieL said:


> Electric shock collars - extreme cases, red zone dogs, = electric collar or lethal injection..... what would you chose?
> 
> Choke chains - If used CORRECTLY do not harm the animal.
> 
> Poke in the face - Can't say I've seen that.....


Electric shock collars are never the _only_ option, even with 'red zone' dogs. They are also dangerous. In fact, in one episode, (this part obviously wasn't screened, but it was filmed) a dog actually bit it's owner when it got shocked. Aside from which, if they are cruel, they are cruel, the dog only understands that, it doesn't understand what the alternative may be, so that doesn't make it any less cruel. I have also seen him use an electric chock collar to stop a dog chasing vehicles. Yet it is proven there are other methods to stop this behaviour. Take longer though and not as exciting for a TV programme..... 

'Hanging' an animal by a choke chain (as in the picture above!) is not 'correct use' though, is it?!


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## JackieL (May 19, 2009)

midori said:


> Electric shock collars are never the _only_ option, even with 'red zone' dogs. They are also dangerous. In fact, in one episode, (this part obviously wasn't screened, but it was filmed) a dog actually bit it's owner when it got shocked. Aside from which, if they are cruel, they are cruel, the dog only understands that, it doesn't understand what the alternative may be, so that doesn't make it any less cruel. I have also seen him use an electric chock collar to stop a dog chasing vehicles. Yet it is proven there are other methods to stop this behaviour. Take longer though and not as exciting for a TV programme.....
> 
> 'Hanging' an animal by a choke chain (as in the picture above!) is not 'correct use' though, is it?!


You have your opinion I have mine. If you believe his methods to be cruel why don't you jump on the band wagon and sue him too :lol2:...
You mention other methods to stop unwanted behaviour, such as ????

I saw him use the electric collar with great success when teaching a staffordshire bull terrier the perils of snakes, it was an instant success and only needed to be used briefly as the animal responded so well.

You also have to bear in mind he is often dealing with very powerful breeds, such as pitbulls, staffs, mastiffs, not your fluffy chihuahua :lol2:.
At the end of the day the arguement isn't really about choke chains and electric collars it's what empathy you have with a dog and by allowing your dog to remain a dog as opposed to humanising them. Cesar gets quick results, what would you prefer the dog learned by getting bit by the snake :lol2: or the collar re-directing his mindset?

Cesar Millan has done lot's for various charities and has also saved many dogs lives.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I have trained (successfully) a problematic bullmastiff with positive methods alone, so I don't see why you say that as if they need bullying and cruel methods to control them (it's rubbish basically). 

I find it hard to believe that someone that seems to be genned up on dogs has fallen for the "instant fix" bull that is shown in the program. There is no such thing as quick fix dog training, and all that program shows is the power of editing. I think it says a lot about what he thinks is acceptable that the scenes of blatant animal cruelty shown above weren't edited out of his show.

I saw one episode where a dog was on the sofa next to him displaying fear and he repeatedly shoved it with his extended fingers until it went for him, then he pinned it on the floor. The only service he provides is to bully a dog into "submission", albeit temporary and in the process pushing dogs to their limits. If even he says you shouldn't try it at home, it says how pants he is. I would say "end of" like someone else did but this is an open discussion lol.....


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## JackieL (May 19, 2009)

KathyM said:


> I have trained (successfully) a problematic bullmastiff with positive methods alone, so I don't see why you say that as if they need bullying and cruel methods to control them (it's rubbish basically).
> 
> I find it hard to believe that someone that seems to be genned up on dogs has fallen for the "instant fix" bull that is shown in the program. There is no such thing as quick fix dog training, and all that program shows is the power of editing. I think it says a lot about what he thinks is acceptable that the scenes of blatant animal cruelty shown above weren't edited out of his show.
> 
> I saw one episode where a dog was on the sofa next to him displaying fear and he repeatedly shoved it with his extended fingers until it went for him, then he pinned it on the floor. The only service he provides is to bully a dog into "submission", albeit temporary and in the process pushing dogs to their limits. If even he says you shouldn't try it at home, it says how pants he is. I would say "end of" like someone else did but this is an open discussion lol.....


Were your comments directed at me or the general discussion dear?


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

KathyM said:


> Of course, it's called TV editing lol. If you google his name, you'll see he doesn't hold much standing with real dog trainers, nor with animal welfare organisations. I believe a dog was walked to death on a treadmill, another was strangled to unconsciousness and another was thrown in a pool? Not really humane methods....


He watched a dog walk to death? I doubt it


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## DementisMulier (Feb 23, 2008)

if i had a naughty dog, i would use his methods. but, my doggy is good as gold :halo:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

sophs87 said:


> He watched a dog walk to death? I doubt it


You're probably right, he wouldn't have watched the dog walk to death, because it was left unsupervised on a treadmill IIRC. Dog Whisperer doesn't sound like the name I'd give him.

I've watched many of his shows, and they make great TV, but it's all smoke and mirrors.

I've seen him poke a dog repeatedly, kick them, and hang one. The videos used to be on Youtube but I've tried to find them for a previous thread and couldnt.


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

I've got to say...
Some of his methods really irk me.
He seems like a genuinely ok guy but some of the things he does... not good.
He does control the dog with most things but he takes it a bit too far with some of the dogs on his show.
Yanking their necks up and making the dog SCARED isn't what should be happening.
The dog should respect you, yes, but not be in fear of you.
It'd be similar if it was with humans, but it would be called an abusive relationship.

I think generally he has good methods but *IMO* he needs to stop or lessen with the more physical side. 
If a dog is mega lazy, then you can't just suddenly make it run for it's life. I'm not saying he's DONE it, it's just an example.
The people on the show want quick results, and that's what they get but if he's going to be doing things quickly at the convenience of the show and the owners then the way to correct the dog should be more subtle and a lot slower. 
Doing something as a rush where animals are concerned isn't very fair.

Afterall, who wants a pet that's scared of them?
His methods are free to use obviously but... i think people should attempt to try everything else other than the physical side if possible.
Only if all else fails i think physical and a bit agressive (as some of his methods are) ways could THEN be used on very difficult dogs. If ALL else fails.


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## Barney_M (Apr 2, 2008)

sophs87 said:


> He watched a dog walk to death? I doubt it


he did not. if you read the article someone sued becuase the dog was injured on a treadmill. cesar won the case becuase he had offered the use of hi facility for free to this celebrity and said they didnt have to come it was from their own choice.

cesars techniques are basic but they work.

his 'shhh'/'tsst' is no different to a 'no' or 'ah'. i have seen him reward dogs, so its not like he doesnt.

fact is he may be controversial but anyone doing anything with animal on the tele has people that like them and people that criticise.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Freakinfreak said:


> Yanking their necks up and making the dog SCARED isn't what should be happening.


so giving a jerk on a choke chain is fine? 




> The people on the show want quick results, and that's what they get


 how do you know how long training is done before the show?



> but if he's going to be doing things quickly at the convenience of the show and the owners then the way to correct the dog should be more subtle and a lot slower.


 again, do you know how much training or prepareation he does with dogs and owners before a show is made?




> Afterall, who wants a pet that's scared of them?


Do any of his own pack seem scared of him?


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

If any of his pack were scared of him surely when he walks up to them they would cower, they dont do they, they walk up waggy tails to greet him calmly


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## Barney_M (Apr 2, 2008)

agreed on the pack front.
the dogs are not afraid of him they go up and greet him that is not fear. they respect and lsiten to him but they are not afraid. far from it


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

I think even if you dont agree with the methods, the fact he saves dogs lives daily by rehabilitating them deserves respect! From pits to pugs! :notworthy:
all dog trainers are going to be debated saying they are good or bad! but because he is in the public spotlight more, there is more speculation.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

sophs87 said:


> I think even if you dont agree with the methods, the fact he saves dogs lives daily by rehabilitating them deserves respect! From pits to pugs! :notworthy:
> all dog trainers are going to be debated saying they are good or bad! but because he is in the public spotlight more, there is more speculation.


 
Its not because he is in the public spotlight, it because his methods are harsh, cruel & abusive!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Any good dog trainer would tell their clients that the use of pinch collars & choke chains is not the way, & would recommend a better training aid more suited to the dog & the problem. Milan uses these pieces of equipment on TV, which only serves to advertise these harsh pieces of aparatus.


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Any good dog trainer would tell their clients that the use of pinch collars & choke chains is not the way, & would recommend a better training aid more suited to the dog & the problem. Milan uses these pieces of equipment on TV, which only serves to advertise these harsh pieces of aparatus.


Agreed, personally I think his methods suck, and he's an arsehole. Just my opinion.


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## Charlottie (Oct 4, 2008)

I agree with many people on here i dont like his methods of training and if a lot of preperation was put into show why would he need to use the harsh methods he does?!

my uncle who has two dogs and hasnt used any of his methods yes one is not as obieent (sp) but he had two previous homes my uncle says 'No' in a loudish tone so the dogs understand what they have done is wrong and when they have been behaved he offers them treats.. it works!! no collars or ragging!!


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## Lego (Jun 22, 2009)

Rum_Kitty said:


> Your sig pic is mesmerising. I've just spent the last five minutes staring at it. :gasp:


Lmao! I'm glad I'm not the only one! Every time I see it I ended up sitting there for ages staring :lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Of course, it's called TV editing lol. If you google his name, you'll see he doesn't hold much standing with real dog trainers, nor with animal welfare organisations. I believe a dog was walked to death on a treadmill, another was strangled to unconsciousness and another was thrown in a pool? Not really humane methods....


So he is a bad man, can't train dogs, is cruel to all dogs and all dogs are afraid of him, nobody who trains dogs has any regard for him and all his methods are bad?
Hmmmm.
As you know, I don't agree with you in this respect. I think that on balance, he has doone a lot of dogs and owners a lot of good.
He has shown some very extreme cases on some of his shows and I've said it before, I would love to see the likes of Ms Stilwell deal with an untrained, dominant, aggressive large breed, using her 'reward the good ignore the bad' methods.

On dog borstal I can remember an American bulldog with aggression issues and on the advice of the trainers, it was PTS. I don't think that would have happened with Cesar Milan. I imagine he would have instigated some possibly harsh (to some people) methods, but ultimately the dog would still be alive.
You use the method required for the problem. I've never seen him putting the boot in, strangling or beating your normal, average, slightly disfunctional family pet.

What bugs me about these discussions is the all or nothing philosophy. Many says that all his methods are terrible and all other methods are wonderful. There is no balance. This is not helpful or fair.

Whilst I would not apply all his methods to all my dogs, I have used an electric shock collar in the past on a dog of mine, and only after every other avenue was explored and then on the advice of a well known dog phsycologist. I went to his training centre in Surrey, it cost me a lot of money but one session worked and stopped the problem from then to the day she died.
Bear in mind that I am not some novice dog owner and over the space of a year, had tried everything I could, using more 'kind' methods first.
Had I not been able to stop the behaviour, the alternative was either death, or being rehomed into an environment where she would definately not have been as happy.
I will be happy to into this more fully if anyone is interested in it.


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## JackieL (May 19, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> So he is a bad man, can't train dogs, is cruel to all dogs and all dogs are afraid of him, nobody who trains dogs has any regard for him and all his methods are bad?
> Hmmmm.
> As you know, I don't agree with you in this respect. I think that on balance, he has doone a lot of dogs and owners a lot of good.
> He has shown some very extreme cases on some of his shows and I've said it before, I would love to see the likes of Ms Stilwell deal with an untrained, dominant, aggressive large breed, using her 'reward the good ignore the bad' methods.
> ...


AT LAST SOMEONE TALKING SENSE :2thumb:!


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## Charlottie (Oct 4, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> So he is a bad man, can't train dogs, is cruel to all dogs and all dogs are afraid of him, nobody who trains dogs has any regard for him and all his methods are bad?
> Hmmmm.
> As you know, I don't agree with you in this respect. I think that on balance, he has doone a lot of dogs and owners a lot of good.
> He has shown some very extreme cases on some of his shows and I've said it before, I would love to see the likes of Ms Stilwell deal with an untrained, dominant, aggressive large breed, using her 'reward the good ignore the bad' methods.
> ...


Just curious what was the problem with your dog?


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> So he is a bad man, can't train dogs, is cruel to all dogs and all dogs are afraid of him, nobody who trains dogs has any regard for him and all his methods are bad?
> Hmmmm.
> As you know, I don't agree with you in this respect. .


Well considering I said nothing of the sort..... :whistling2:

I'm allowed to think the guy's an arse, everything I know that works in dog training goes against what he does and I think he is cruel to dogs. I would rather my dog was euthanised than trained by him, and that's the honest truth. I can't lie!


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## Barney_M (Apr 2, 2008)

people train in different methods. I am a farmer and I would probably train dogs more harshly than a city dweller yet mine like me, ocme ot me and are no afraid


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

KathyM said:


> . I would rather my dog was euthanised than trained by him, and that's the honest truth. I can't lie!


 Well I think that is a shocking statement. You would rather kill your dog, than let it have a chance of life just because you have a problem with someone?
I wonder what the dog would choose if it was asked and could answer.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

All dog trainers have good and bad methods. I dont agree with all CM does but he does have good points and some of his methods work really well.
He is not a dog trainer he is a behaviourist and all the TV shows is the highlights.I dont know any other person who could have full control over his very large assorted pack like he does and I really dont see why the very mention of his name incites people to see red. He saves dogs from death row which in my eyes is a very good thing.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Well I think that is a *shocking* statement. You would rather kill your dog, than let it have a chance of life just because you have a problem with someone?
> I wonder what the dog would choose if it was asked and could answer.


:lol2:


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## Love_snakes (Aug 12, 2007)

I find that his type of training only works as a last resort. I have trained all of my dogs and taught people how to train their dogs in a much less 'agressive' way. There is a place for his methods but not in everyday training. 

If you train a dog from a puppy there should be no need for the more harsh methods. All of my dogs had training from day one (when i got them not from birth) and they listen, do what they are told etc 

In the wrong hands his methods could do owner and dog more harm and stress than good. Hes methods are more for correcting agressive dogs than training your average pet.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

I was just about to put my tuppence worth in to this thread, how ever i would pretty much me saying the same as fenwoman in my own words .



fenwoman said:


> So he is a bad man, can't train dogs, is cruel to all dogs and all dogs are afraid of him, nobody who trains dogs has any regard for him and all his methods are bad?
> Hmmmm.
> As you know, I don't agree with you in this respect. I think that on balance, he has doone a lot of dogs and owners a lot of good.
> He has shown some very extreme cases on some of his shows and I've said it before, I would love to see the likes of Ms Stilwell deal with an untrained, dominant, aggressive large breed, using her 'reward the good ignore the bad' methods.
> ...


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

Love_snakes said:


> I find that his type of training only works as a last resort. I have trained all of my dogs and taught people how to train their dogs in a much less 'agressive' way. There is a place for his methods but not in everyday training.
> 
> *If you train a dog from a puppy there should be no need for the more harsh methods. All of my dogs had training from day one (when i got them not from birth) and they listen, do what they are told etc *
> 
> In the wrong hands his methods could do owner and dog more harm and stress than good. Hes methods are more for correcting agressive dogs than training your average pet.


Agreed, but not everyone trains their dogs


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> Any good dog trainer would tell their clients that the use of pinch collars & choke chains is not the way, & would recommend a better training aid more suited to the dog & the problem. Milan uses these pieces of equipment on TV, which only serves to advertise these harsh pieces of aparatus.


But its not training he does, he used phycological methods to REVERSE and stop bad behaviour, its not like giving you mates tips for when the get a pup, its dealing with vicious, unbalanced, full grown dogs, so what would YOU do wiith a fully grown rotty with food aggresion, dog aggresion (tried to attack every dog he sees on a walk) ?? the owners have tried everything and you are their last resort (like ceaser is most of the time before the dog being pts) ?


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

JackieL said:


> You have your opinion I have mine. If you believe his methods to be cruel why don't you jump on the band wagon and sue him too :lol2:...
> You mention other methods to stop unwanted behaviour, such as ????
> 
> I saw him use the electric collar with great success when teaching a staffordshire bull terrier the perils of snakes, it was an instant success and only needed to be used briefly as the animal responded so well.
> ...


did you read the article posted further back down the thread?

Im in two minds about him personally, but I think too many people critisize his training methods, (not just random people on forums, but proffessers vets and other experts around the world) that its impossible to not take notice and think about it, I have read many articles both for and against Ceaser and I see both sides.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> Well I think that is a shocking statement. You would rather kill your dog, than let it have a chance of life just because you have a problem with someone?
> I wonder what the dog would choose if it was asked and could answer.


What a way to twist words. She said she would rather her dog was pts than abused by someone like Cesar. It has nothing to do with liking him or not.

Cesar would be buggered if he tried that rubbish with Blu. Tiny little man couldn't hang an 80kg dane by it's collar, could he? He'd need a stepladder, and a serious work out:lol2:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> Well I think that is a shocking statement. You would rather kill your dog, than let it have a chance of life just because you have a problem with someone?
> I wonder what the dog would choose if it was asked and could answer.


No, I said I would rather she was euthanised than hung, hit, thrown, choked, asphysxiated, bullied, electric-shocked or any other harsh and useless methods. And I stand by it because I love her and I would no more have him abuse her than anyone else, it's my responsibility to keep her safe. :whistling2:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

sophs87 said:


> But its not training he does, he used phycological methods to REVERSE and stop bad behaviour, its not like giving you mates tips for when the get a pup, its dealing with vicious, unbalanced, full grown dogs, so what would YOU do wiith a fully grown rotty with food aggresion, dog aggresion (tried to attack every dog he sees on a walk) ?? the owners have tried everything and you are their last resort (like ceaser is most of the time before the dog being pts) ?


Would be interesting to see the feedback a year down the line and not just a week or two. Chances are some get put down anyway as bullying (when it works at all) is only a quick fix and unless you constantly abuse them for the rest of their lives, it does sod all in the long term. Most decent people want a good relationship with their dogs, they won't ever get it with his methods.


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

KathyM said:


> Would be interesting to see the feedback a year down the line and not just a week or two. Chances are some get put down anyway as bullying (when it works at all) is only a quick fix and unless you constantly abuse them for the rest of their lives, it does sod all in the long term. Most decent people want a good relationship with their dogs, they won't ever get it with his methods.


I agree id love to see some feedback too!
I also dont see it as bullying he goes by what the dog's phycollogy.
Not by feeding treats 24/7 how would that work for a food possesive dog?


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Handfeeding is actually an excellent way to deal with food possessive dogs lol but that's a whole other thread. I don't believe anything can be achieved through bullying that can't be achieved with positive methods, and in reality you lose more than you gain if you decide to go down that harsh route. I feel very strongly about having an emotionally balanced, happy dog, and bullying strips them of confidence, and takes away the possibility of a good bond. I believe these training methods are the result of originally mostly male beliefs of control and that need to be boss over everything they "own", it's a dark mentality that I don't want my animals part of.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

sophs87 said:


> I also dont see it as bullying he goes by what the dog's phycollogy.


Sorry, coming back to this, can you explain what a dog's psychology is? Can you explain how Cesar Millan knows what a dog is thinking? I think his methods boil down to his interpretation of their behaviour, and his interpretation has the capacity to be flawed, just like anyone else reading an animal that can't talk and communicate with us. A lot of his interpretation is that a dog needs taking down a peg or two, and in the episodes I've watched he has done this with nervous animals, something I personally think is a disgrace. You don't take a fearful animal and strangle it. You don't take a dog that's frightened of water and throw it in a pool. You don't put a shock collar on a scared dog. He's only got away with it because he's a celebrity.


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Handfeeding is actually an excellent way to deal with food possessive dogs lol but that's a whole other thread. I don't believe anything can be achieved through bullying that can't be achieved with positive methods, and in reality you lose more than you gain if you decide to go down that harsh route. I feel very strongly about having an emotionally balanced, happy dog, and bullying strips them of confidence, and takes away the possibility of a good bond. I believe these training methods are the result of originally mostly male beliefs of control and that need to be boss over everything they "own", it's a dark mentality that I don't want my animals part of.





KathyM said:


> Sorry, coming back to this, can you explain what a dog's psychology is? Can you explain how Cesar Millan knows what a dog is thinking? I think his methods boil down to his interpretation of their behaviour, and his interpretation has the capacity to be flawed, just like anyone else reading an animal that can't talk and communicate with us. A lot of his interpretation is that a dog needs taking down a peg or two, and in the episodes I've watched he has done this with nervous animals, something I personally think is a disgrace. You don't take a fearful animal and strangle it. You don't take a dog that's frightened of water and throw it in a pool. You don't put a shock collar on a scared dog. He's only got away with it because he's a celebrity.


Excellent posts Kathy :notworthy: My ex husband was off the same mindset as CM and it caused a lot of arguments between us. I know who my dogs preferred and we all breathed a sigh of relief when he moved out.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

KathyM said:


> No, I said I would rather she was euthanised than hung, hit, thrown, choked, asphysxiated, bullied, electric-shocked or any other harsh and useless methods. And I stand by it because I love her and I would no more have him abuse her than anyone else, it's my responsibility to keep her safe. :whistling2:


I actually agree with you. 

I think people sometimes forget, there are worse fates than death for an animal. 




sophs87 said:


> I agree id love to see some feedback too!
> I also dont see it as bullying he goes by what the dog's phycollogy.
> Not by feeding treats 24/7 how would that work for a food possesive dog?


The 'dog psychology' he believes in is based on theories that have now been shown to be largely flawed. I don't doubt for one second his methods work, at least in the short term. However, I personally feel there is always an alternative, more effective method that is safe for the owner to try themselves and means no risk to the owner, or the dog. The fact that anyone even started this thread shows that the warning not to attempt the methods shown in the programme at home doesn't work, and people do try them at home. 

Feeding 'treats' is actually the best methods for dealing with a food aggressive dog. Posession really is 9/10ths of the law if you're a dog. As far as the dog is concerned, what it has it owns, and that means no-one else has the right to take it. Now, some dogs are naturally laid back and will allow a human to take something from the start, some dogs are more possessive, which is natural behaviour for a dog. Until they learn otherwise. A dog that is food possessive thinks you are going to steal it's food, and so the best and simplest way to deal with that is to teach the dog that you aren't a threat and it's food is safe. Teaching it who's boss and that you can take it's food away whenever you like might work for some dogs, but try it with the wrong one and you'll get bitten. I never understand why someone would actually want to push a dog so far it feels the need to bite (and there aren't very many dogs at all who bite without feeling threatened) when here is an alternative method. 

And it's fine to say he isn't training he is rehabilitating, but the two really do go hand in hand. I mean, is he rehabilitating a dog to accept others (in the case of dog/dog aggression, or is he training it to accept other dogs? 

I'm assuming you didn't read the link posted earlier. If you are open minded enough to look at the other side of the 'arguement' then it is worth a read. I'd also suggest, if you can get a copy, reading 'The Culture Clash' by Jean Donaldson. It's always nice to look into both sides/methods/theories I think.


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

Another excellent post! :notworthy:


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## Love_snakes (Aug 12, 2007)

sophs87 said:


> Agreed, but not everyone trains their dogs


You are right. Then you end up with dogs that are harder to train that are set in their ways. It takes time but you can do it with the "nicer" metods. CM's methods are quicker, people are to lazy to train their dogs. I mean, if they arnt going to walk your dog daily (sometimes 2 or 3 times a day depending on breed and your garden), or are going to leave it alone for long periods of the day, and not train it, then dont get a dog.


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## Charlottie (Oct 4, 2008)

I dont see why anyone would want to use methods when as said before there is a calmer methods out there and i have read some excellent posts on this thread! 
Oh and fenwoman still hasnt replied to what was so wrong with her dog that she had to use an electric collar?


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> Cesar would be buggered if he tried that rubbish with Blu. Tiny little man couldn't hang an 80kg dane by it's collar, could he? He'd need a stepladder, and a serious work out:lol2:


:lol2::lol2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Charlottie said:


> I dont see why anyone would want to use methods when as said before there is a calmer methods out there and i have read some excellent posts on this thread!
> *Oh and fenwoman still hasnt replied to what was so wrong with her dog that she had to use an electric collar?*


It was because the dog tried to attack chickens or something, if I remember rightly! :devil:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

sophs87 said:


> But its not training he does, he used phycological methods to REVERSE and stop bad behaviour, its not like giving you mates tips for when the get a pup, its dealing with vicious, unbalanced, full grown dogs, *so what would YOU do wiith a fully grown rotty with food aggresion, dog aggresion (tried to attack every dog he sees on a walk) ?? the owners have tried everything and you are their last resort (like ceaser is most of the time before the dog being pts) *?


I personally would use methods such as the hand-feeding technique to overcome food aggression. Or if I personally could not deal with the problem myself, I would seek professional help. And if I did not like the techniques that trainer used, I would ditch them & find another!


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## Charlottie (Oct 4, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> It was because the dog tried to attack chickens or something, if I remember rightly! :devil:


Was that it!!! Well heres some free advice keep the dog away from the chickens! if that was the case! :devil:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> It was because the dog tried to attack chickens or something, if I remember rightly! :devil:


Apparently dogs have no rights to do what comes naturally to them then?


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

Barney_M said:


> people train in different methods. I am a farmer and I would probably train dogs more harshly than a city dweller yet mine like me, ocme ot me and are no afraid


Thats because you feed them :lol2:

So you admit that you use harsher training methods than most?


Do you think your dogs have a choice and could actually turn round and say "Well I've had enough of this" pack there bags and walk out of the door? 
Because they cant, all you have to do is visit a rescue and see the state of some of the animals that come in to see that.
Dogs are loyal animals, doesnt matter what you put them through they are always there. Doesnt mean there happy.


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## Love_snakes (Aug 12, 2007)

marthaMoo said:


> Thats because you feed them :lol2:
> 
> So you admit that you use harsher training methods than most?
> 
> ...


Yeah some dogs on aniaml cops *insert US state name* and torn to shreds, beat, have mange and a collar that has sliced its neck up and they still wag their tails and try to greet the officers. I think its just the nature of your dogs.


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## Xotics_Freak (Jul 19, 2009)

Love_snakes said:


> Yeah some dogs on aniaml cops *insert US state name* and torn to shreds, beat, have mange and a collar that has sliced its neck up and they still wag their tails and try to greet the officers. I think its just the nature of your dogs.


I watch them its amazing the state of some of the poor animals they find 

Though they still wagg them tails an lick them to death 


I have watched Mr Milan though have to say his methods made me cringe i mean to be fair if your gonna hand feed an aggressive dog dont you risk getting your hands bitten?? 

I wouldnt say all his methods are bad but dont see how alot of them do actually work 

Though i dont have a dog so cant comment too much lol


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

marthaMoo said:


> Thats because you feed them :lol2:


Actually, I will step in here and say, just because training isn't sugar-coated or all 'good boy! good boy! heres a treat!' doesn't mean the dog will be unhappy. I know a lot of people hate my atitude towards dogs just because I don't constantly fuss them, or like when I don't show them affection when they "ask" for it, but that doesn't mean to say dogs don't like me, I just think humans put their emotions into a dogs mind. And on the flip side of the coin, how often is it you see badly behaved sheep dogs? guard dogs? herding dogs? gun dogs? HPR dogs? as opposed to 'pet' dogs.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Xotics_Freak said:


> I watch them its amazing the state of some of the poor animals they find
> 
> Though they still wagg them tails an lick them to death
> 
> ...


Not really. You only risk getting bitten if you push the dog beyond what it can cope with, so you take things slowly, have a comfortable dog, and avoid getting bitten. 



LoveForLizards said:


> Actually, I will step in here and say, just because training isn't sugar-coated or all 'good boy! good boy! heres a treat!' doesn't mean the dog will be unhappy. I know a lot of people hate my atitude towards dogs just because I don't constantly fuss them, or like when I don't show them affection when they "ask" for it, but that doesn't mean to say dogs don't like me, I just think humans put their emotions into a dogs mind. And on the flip side of the coin, how often is it you see badly behaved sheep dogs? guard dogs? herding dogs? gun dogs? HPR dogs? as opposed to 'pet' dogs.


I don't think dogs even like us in the way we'd like to think they do. They like what we can provide for them. Saying they 'like' us, _is_ putting our human emotions onto them. 

I have seen lots of badly behaved gun dogs actually. Eventually, the owners usually resort to electric shock collars. The reason they are badly behaved?! Precisely because the owner/trainer think they can beat/force them into behaving instead of taking the time to properly train them. 

Working dogs in general are well behaved in part because they get enough exercise. FAR too many pet dog owners think an hour a day is sufficient, and we all know a tired dog is a well behaved dog.


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## Xotics_Freak (Jul 19, 2009)

midori said:


> Not really. You only risk getting bitten if you push the dog beyond what it can cope with, so you take things slowly, have a comfortable dog, and avoid getting bitten.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ah ok cool thank you for clearing that up :2thumb:

Im not a dog owner so bit clueless on training and such :lol2:

was bad enough nip training my ferret jills :lol2:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> Actually, I will step in here and say, just because training isn't sugar-coated or all 'good boy! good boy! heres a treat!' doesn't mean the dog will be unhappy. I know a lot of people hate my atitude towards dogs just because I don't constantly fuss them, or like when I don't show them affection when they "ask" for it, but that doesn't mean to say dogs don't like me, I just think humans put their emotions into a dogs mind. And on the flip side of the coin, how often is it you see badly behaved sheep dogs? guard dogs? herding dogs? gun dogs? HPR dogs? as opposed to 'pet' dogs.


I think you're assuming that if someone doesn't use harsh methods, they all are fluffy mummies who treat their pets like children?

Far from it - you can train with kindness without being a soft walkover. It's called nothing in life is free. My dog gets attention when I want to give it, just because I dont zap, hang, smack or roll him doesn't mean I pander to him either.


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## Love_snakes (Aug 12, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> I think you're assuming that if someone doesn't use harsh methods, they all are fluffy mummies who treat their pets like children?
> 
> Far from it - you can train with kindness without being a soft walkover. It's called nothing in life is free. My dog gets attention when I want to give it, just because I dont zap, hang, smack or roll him doesn't mean I pander to him either.


Yeah thats true. I train my dogs with the more hands off methods where i let them figure out what is right rather than forcing them to do what i want, but they arnt babies.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> I think you're assuming that if someone doesn't use harsh methods, they all are fluffy mummies who treat their pets like children?
> 
> Far from it - you can train with kindness without being a soft walkover. It's called nothing in life is free. My dog gets attention when I want to give it, just because I dont zap, hang, smack or roll him doesn't mean I pander to him either.


Not at all, merely pointing stuff out. 
I don't agree with a lot of hands-on methods, and I wasn't really talking about training in general in that post, more discipline.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> Apparently dogs have no rights to do what comes naturally to them then?


Well we all know that some dogs have stronger instincts to chase & hunt, but if one of my 3 dogs kept trying to attack our rabbits, for example, I would simply not allow the dog & rabbit contact!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> I think you're assuming that if someone doesn't use harsh methods, they all are fluffy mummies who treat their pets like children?
> 
> Far from it - you can train with kindness without being a soft walkover. It's called nothing in life is free. My dog gets attention when I want to give it, just because I dont zap, hang, smack or roll him doesn't mean I pander to him either.


Well said Lisa, well said! :2thumb:


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

I dont think any ONE method should be recommended or criticised,what works for one animal may not for another.Personally i think Cesar is great,and his techniques shown to the world on tv will have helped a lot of people with their dogs.Each dog is different,we recently lost our 5 month old bulldog pup to a massive allergic reaction,devastating,we now have a new one.The 2 dogs could not be more different,our first pup (RIP),was the most dominant dog ive ever come across,charging up to any dog he met,from mastiff to toy dog and trying to climb on their back and dominate them.He would also bite,chew and generally ignore commands.In the few months we had him,we worked incredibly hard on discipline,including the "alpha roll",even then he would snarl and try and bite.Towards the end of his short life,he was the best behaved puppy you could imagine,but still with the spirit we loved about him.Our new pup is the total opposite,and such enforced discipline would break his spirit,and ruin him.Cesar seems to take on the real problem dogs,and i for one think thats the point being missed,extreme cases,extreme methods.I know i wouldnt pet a snarling bull breed dog,and expect cuddles and treats to change his behaviour to a safe,controlled level.I guess hes a love him or hate him character.I dont agree with all he does,but he certainly makes a difference to the lives of many owners and pets.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Berber King said:


> I dont think any ONE method should be recommended or criticised,what works for one animal may not for another.Personally i think Cesar is great,and his techniques shown to the world on tv will have helped a lot of people with their dogs.Each dog is different,we recently lost our 5 month old bulldog pup to a massive allergic reaction,devastating,we now have a new one.The 2 dogs could not be more different,our first pup (RIP),was the most dominant dog ive ever come across,charging up to any dog he met,from mastiff to toy dog and trying to climb on their back and dominate them.He would also bite,chew and generally ignore commands.In the few months we had him,we worked incredibly hard on discipline,including the "alpha roll",even then he would snarl and try and bite.Towards the end of his short life,he was the best behaved puppy you could imagine,but still with the spirit we loved about him.Our new pup is the total opposite,and such enforced discipline would break his spirit,and ruin him.Cesar seems to take on the real problem dogs,and i for one think thats the point being missed,extreme cases,extreme methods.I know i wouldnt pet a snarling bull breed dog,and expect cuddles and treats to change his behaviour to a safe,controlled level.I guess hes a love him or hate him character.I dont agree with all he does,but he certainly makes a difference to the lives of many owners and pets.


 
Everything that you have described as 'dominant' behaviour in your puppy is nothing but _totally normal puppy behaviour_. Just a young puppy who has not yet learnt manners. 

Puppies do chew. It isn't dominant behaviour, they aren't trying to p*** you off or get one over on you, it's what they do. They also bite. Again, not dominant behaviour, but normal for a puppy, and how they learn bite inhibition. It's abit like small babies who feel the need to put everything in their mouths, puppies mouth everything at first and they don't differentiate between your hand, foot, sofa, ktichen cupboards or their bone or own toy, _everything_ is a chew toy to a puppy. 

Puppies ignore commands for two reasons. (and dogs in general actually) They either don't understand what you are asking them to do (and just because they understood what 'sit' meant in your kitchen, does not meant hey understand what 'sit' means when you say it in the garden) or they are having more fun doing something else. Again, not being dominant, but being a dog. Dog's are inherantly selfish. They do something because there is something in it for them. Now, that may be they prefer the game you're going to play with them when they do as you ask, or they'd prefer to avoid the beating/shouting/alpha rolling you'll do if they don't. I know which I'd prefer. 

I don't think anyone is missing the sort of dogs CM deals with. I think people are disagreeing that those 'types' of dog need different handling to any other. I also wouldn't class thinsg like a dog that chases a cat, or farm vehicles, or is fear aggressive as an 'extreme' case really. 

I personally don't doubt CM is well intentioned. He does have some good ideas, eg. telling people they must exercise their dogs enough, and not 'baby' them. I just don't think the methods he uses to get results are needed is most cases, can and do have negatie implications for the dogs, and the fact is, people will and do try them at home, which even CM himself would say was a bad idea.


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

Yes,it was "normal" puppy behaviour,but required a firmer hand to prevent it becoming potentially dangerous behaviour in adulthood.My only point was different dogs require different levels of training on an individual basis.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

How come the people who think he's wonderful do everything he advises EXCEPT the most important thing piece of advice, which is *don't attempt these techniques at home? *


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Wow - I cant believe you alpha rolled a PUPPY without any formal training or even real need to. Not that I think there is ever a need to...

That's really sad. Poor little sod was probably very confused, I hope he bit you for it lol.


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

How would you know whether it was needed,or what training i have? Yes,i had to pin a puppy down on his back until he submitted.He was swinging his head and biting hard (not playful puppy nips) when reprimanded,whilst snarling with his ears pinned back.Ive had lots of dogs over the years,was part of an obidience display team as a child,and won a junior handler trophy when much younger.I also have qualifications in animal care blah,blah,blah.Trying to make it sound like i hurt a puppy in anyway is ridiculous,but yes i made a potentially dangerous adult bullbreed pup submit to his owner,and had a much happier,better behaved family pet due to being strict.I wont ever have to resort to this with my new pup,as he is very gentle.We may have a family in the future,and i dont want to be one of the idiots who treats a dog like a human,and ends up dumping it in a shelter because-"it bit my child".To quote cesar-"Excercise,Discipline,Affection".I dont agree with all his methods,but certainly do with that statement.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Ears back and biting when "reprimanded"? What was the reprimand? Sounds like typical fear response to me, and submission doesn't = happiness to me personally. I would never recommend alpha rolls, they _never_ have a positive outcome for the dog, just "break" them at best, and are very dangerous to people too. There is nothing to be gained from it but a dog that ends up fearing you for life, not a relationship I want with a dog. And I'm saying that as someone who succcessfully trained a problematic bullbreed dog who displayed similar behaviours (interpreted very differently thankfully) without _once_ laying a finger on her or forcing her to "submit". 

I really get a bee in my bonnet when some people say some breeds need bullying.....


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## Love_snakes (Aug 12, 2007)

If you live on your own and you are the dominant animal and your dog is submissive, when you use those methods. If the human becomes sick, with swine flu say, will the dog not try to challenge them? Also what happens if they have a baby, it will fell that it is above his new member of the pack right? So it can bully the baby?

Im just curious how it works.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I have 11 dogs from tiny breeds up to large breeds and have NEVER alpha rolled any of them even the rescues that had problems:whip:
Puppies play bite that is how they play, your job as an owner is to teach them not to do it in a kind and patient way


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

Im glad those techniques worked for you,mine worked for me.My pup was far from submissive,the total opposite,but he was also the happiest,friendliest dog you could have met.Even the trainer at puppy classes was impressed with him-stating he was one of the best in the class.This is my whole point,every single dog is different as an individual,so not every "approved" method will work,regardless of who reccomends what.The op asked if any of cesars methods worked for anyone,to which i have replied yes.I certainly dont dispute that pinning a dog down is extreme,but i felt i had no choice with that individual dog.My current pup is quietly playing next to me,and will never need such treatment,it would break his spirit,reward training will be perfect for him.Individual,not generalisation.


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

I really get a bee in my bonnet when some people say some breeds need bullying.....[/QUOTE]

Not some breeds,individual animals.


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## zon3k (Jun 7, 2009)

nothing is 100% accurate 
the people saying 'ive never alpha rolled a dog and im amazing' need to pull their head out of their a$$!
SOME DOGS NEED IT! Do you think that in the wild the parents just think 'oh they are playing its ok, let them bite anything they like we can work out a way to fix it later'
Some dont need anything near as severe
I the same way that humans react definately to stimulus so do dogs, its how you adapt to each dog's requirements that makes you a good trainer/handler.

For the record-this is dictated by a retired police dog trainer and a breeder of 52 years


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

My uncle always used to tell me to "Break their habit, not their spirit", comes to mind with some of the stuff I have read in the thread. :hmm:


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

Berber King said:


> Im glad those techniques worked for you,mine worked for me.My pup was far from submissive,the total opposite,but he was also the happiest,friendliest dog you could have met.Even the trainer at puppy classes was impressed with him-stating he was one of the best in the class.This is my whole point,every single dog is different as an individual,so not every "approved" method will work,regardless of who reccomends what.The op asked if any of cesars methods worked for anyone,to which i have replied yes.I certainly dont dispute that pinning a dog down is extreme,but i felt i had no choice with that individual dog.My current pup is quietly playing next to me,and will never need such treatment,it would break his spirit,reward training will be perfect for him.Individual,not generalisation.


 
:no1::notworthy:


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> My uncle always used to tell me to *"Break their habit, not their spirit*", comes to mind with some of the stuff I have read in the thread. :hmm:


wise words :notworthy:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

zon3k said:


> nothing is 100% accurate
> the people saying 'ive never alpha rolled a dog and im amazing' need to pull their head out of their a$$!
> SOME DOGS NEED IT! Do you think that in the wild the parents just think 'oh they are playing its ok, let them bite anything they like we can work out a way to fix it later'
> Some dont need anything near as severe
> ...


 
Ive never rolled a dog and my GSD bitch was the puppy from hell, even the large training place I went to that deals with security dogs had never met one like her. She is now 6 years old and the perfect dog. That doesnt make me amazing just patient and understanding. I put a lot of hours work in to her when really I just wanted to sit and cry but it paid off in the end

A few years ago some police dog trainers found it acceptable to hang their dogs............................................


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

> Berber King said:
> 
> 
> > I really get a bee in my bonnet when some people say some breeds need bullying.....
> ...


So you believe some dogs need bullying? :bash:



> nothing is 100% accurate
> the people saying 'ive never alpha rolled a dog and im amazing' need to pull their head out of their a$$!
> SOME DOGS NEED IT! Do you think that in the wild the parents just think 'oh they are playing its ok, let them bite anything they like we can work out a way to fix it later'
> Some dont need anything near as severe
> ...


Being a police dog handler means nothing to me, sorry, many use electric shock collars and brutal methods that aren't training a dog anything. No dog needs to be treated inhumanely. No dog deserves to be frightened into submission. If the only way you can control a dog is to bully it, you're not a trainer, sorry. 



> Im glad those techniques worked for you,mine worked for me.My pup was far from submissive,the total opposite


Given the sole purpose of alpha rolling is to create a submissive dog, are you admitting by this comment that it utterly failed anyway? If so, what did it actually achieve, except making you feel big and manly?:devil:


----------



## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

:lol2:

Yes, I do feel that these people who have to bully a dog to do something are usually the ones attracted to "hard" breeds, reckon they're the bees knees and tough guys, and in fact just need a penis extension.


----------



## Charlottie (Oct 4, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> :lol2:
> 
> Yes, I do feel that these people who have to bully a dog to do something are usually the ones attracted to "hard" breeds, reckon they're the bees knees and tough guys, and in fact just need a penis extension.


 
:lol2:


----------



## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> :lol2:
> 
> Yes, I do feel that these people who have to bully a dog to do something are usually the ones attracted to "hard" breeds, reckon they're the bees knees and tough guys, and in fact just need a penis extension.


pmsl :no1:


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## zon3k (Jun 7, 2009)

KathyM said:


> Being a police dog handler means nothing to me, sorry, many use electric shock collars and brutal methods that aren't training a dog anything. No dog needs to be treated inhumanely. No dog deserves to be frightened into submission. *If the only way you can control a dog is to bully it*, you're not a trainer, sorry.


who said that was the only way? in the same way that some kids need a smack round the head for being a prick as opposed to being told not to behave like a prick SOME dogs need to have boundries set a little harder than others and in different ways-everything is individual, including peoples view of what is an acceptable way to handle dogs, go with what works
do you think nature is all hugs and kisses and patience? :whistling2:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

zon3k said:


> who said that was the only way? in the same way that some kids need a smack round the head for being a prick as opposed to being told not to behave like a prick SOME dogs need to have boundries set a little harder than others and in different ways-everything is individual, including peoples view of what is an acceptable way to handle dogs, go with what works
> do you think nature is all hugs and kisses and patience? :whistling2:


I've got to be honest, this whole post reeks of a lack of knowledge and experience in dog training. I am far from an expert in either dogs or kids but have both and have trained both lol. 

I didn't say positive methods were the only way, they're not. They're the only way I would train any dog. They're the only way anyone will work with any of my dogs ever. 

I could just about understand the comments made about some dogs needing harsher training methods if others had actually been exhausted, but there seems to be (from these men that need to prove their manliness - perhaps from being repeatedly outdone by strong women lol) this anti-positive sentiment whereby generally men who need that enhancement to their manhood (or lack of it) brag about rolling, hitting, shocking and choking dogs because it's the "only way" for some breeds of dogs, but have not actually tried positive methods. They say positive methods don't work but 10 times out of 10 they either haven't tried it or haven't seen any form of positive training through. When faced with a woman (shock horror) who has actually used only positive methods on a breed of dog they say can only be trained by bullying (one with a history of quite severe behavioural issues) they get defensive or suggest they had somehow "worse" dogs. Nope. Doesn't wash lol. It's just laziness and the masculine need for domination - just like dogs though the real men don't need to prove it this way!

It takes a real trainer to put real time into building a positive relationship with a dog, working on getting a dog to do what you want because it wants to as well. Any old banker can hit or otherwise bully a dog (or child!) and say it is the only way. They're wrong....


----------



## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

didnt read the last few pages of this thread, seemed a bit ''same-y'', sorry.

IMO if it matters, fenwoman has covered all the bases really.

The thing is many people see Millan, and refer to him as a trainer. I don't think he is at all, and i don't think thats what he really claims to be. He's more of a behaviourist, and there is a differance. Many of the dogs he sees have been worked on by multiple trainers who didnt get results. Millan becomes a last resort before a more drastic solution. Without his work, many dogs would now be dead. If I had a choice between having a dog PTS or giving Millan a go first, I know what id choose, and when it came down to it, I bet most of you would give him a chance too, even if you wont admit or think that you would, right now.

No doubt I will get jumped on, but it has already been said so, sod it....

Training with positive reinforcement alone is not 100% effective for all dogs. Some yes. Some up to a certain age. Some very little. Anyone who believes otherwise, just come and make my dog heel using only positive reinforcement. I'll show you it done perfectly first, without a lead and so no corrections only my voice, and then you can have a go with the lead using only positive reinforcement. The fact is you'll be on your face before you can get your clicker out your pocket! 

I agree that a lot of Millan's techniques are too extreme for training your family dog, but that is not what he is doing is it?!! 



Ive just read a bit more of this thread and really dont get this thinking against the alpha role. My dogs know im in charge, what i say goes. They are submissive to me. They are in no way ''broken spirited''. They have not been beaten or abused in any way to achieve this. If they did not see me in this way, they would walk all over me, literally!! Again, anyone of you who thinks they can walk my dog and not assume a leader role is welcome to try, we can invent some kind of new extreme sport, ''how long can you stay on your feet''.

And i know all the arguments against our original thoughts on pack heirarchy, and to an extent I agree that our original way of thinking is probably wrong. From watching my own dogs interact, my way of thinking is that the alpha role certainly does exist within a pack, but it is not set in stone, not one single dog in charge all of the time, but a single dog taking control at a certain point in time, where the role shifts around the pack. Much like in the way someone may enter a room and take charge of whatever may be going on, they are not in control all the time but for that period. And I have encountered ''problem'' dogs who have taken on a continuous alpha role, which has resulted in fear, instability, and basically a depressed state whithin the pack. So to me there definately is a natural alpha role, but it is a position which is adopted as needed and only works because of respect and trust within the pack. The trust and respect does not necessarily come from all positive things, in the same way as I respect people I dislike and have gained trust in people as a result of a negative situation ie at work I make a stupid mistake, for which i am disciplined, and I learn from it. Had the boss ignored me or given me a cake, i dont think it would have had quite the same effect!

Thats it for now:lol2:


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## zon3k (Jun 7, 2009)

KathyM said:


> I've got to be honest, this whole post reeks of a lack of knowledge and experience in dog training. I am far from an expert in either dogs or kids but have both and have trained both lol.
> 
> I didn't say positive methods were the only way, they're not. They're the only way I would train any dog. They're the only way anyone will work with any of my dogs ever.
> 
> ...



you seeem to be suffering from selective reading, im an advocate of both methods, positive first of course! Just because its the way YOU choose to do something doesnt make everyone else wrong. Your generalisations seem to be a bit sweeping too. If i ever had to roll a dog, id never 'brag' about it, in fact id be mortified at the fact it had to come to that, but the fact remains that some dogs respond exceptionally well to it and it has no prooven detrimental effects.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

You're a victim of your own selective reading and a hint of paranoia, I didn't say you bragged about alpha rolling? Unless perhaps you internalised that based on a personal reaction to me hitting a nerve with my generalised comments on masculinity lol? Don't worry, tongue is firmly in cheek :devil:


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## zon3k (Jun 7, 2009)

KathyM said:


> You're a victim of your own selective reading and a hint of paranoia, I didn't say you bragged about alpha rolling? Unless perhaps you internalised that based on a personal reaction to me hitting a nerve with my generalised comments on masculinity lol? Don't worry, tongue is firmly in cheek :devil:


rofl
i was responding to your comments that some people would brag about it and giving MY (thats me, as an individual) views as to how id react if i had to do it
we could get stuck in a loop here... i think im going to go shave with a peice of glass, hit my girlfriend, buy a ferrai and then go and roll some dogs until they submit to my superiority


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> :lol2:
> 
> Yes, I do feel that these people who have to bully a dog to do something are usually the ones attracted to "hard" breeds, reckon they're the bees knees and tough guys, and in fact just need a penis extension.


Actually i have a bulldog due to their gentle nature.Its sad that you have to resort to personal insults when someone disagrees with you.For the record,im hung like the proverbial donkey,my choice of dog has nothing to do with it,ive just never felt the need to post pics of my tackle in the off-topic section,but gladly would to disprove your theory!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

If it makes you feel better? :lol2:

I would skip the Ferrari, go for one of them Imprezas, make sure the exhaust sounds like it's going to fall off. Then get an England T shirt, a staffie and a leather harness with Yorkshire roses on. And a case of Wife Beater. Then you'll be halfway to being the kind of man I was talking about lol. 

Of course you could go Cesar Millan and pretend you're the epitomy of masculinity while wearing hotpants? :lol2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Evie said:


> How come the people who think he's wonderful do everything he advises EXCEPT the most important thing piece of advice, which is *don't attempt these techniques at home? *


Very true!!!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> :lol2:
> 
> Yes, I do feel that these people who have to bully a dog to do something are usually the ones attracted to "hard" breeds, reckon they're the bees knees and tough guys, and in fact just need a penis extension.


Fenwoman used an electric shock collar on one of her dogs - does she need a penis extension too??? 
:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Fenwoman used an electric shock collar on one of her dogs - does she need a penis extension too???
> :lol2::lol2::lol2:


:lol2::lol2::lol2:


----------



## leo19 (Mar 16, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Fenwoman used an electric shock collar on one of her dogs - does she need a penis extension too???
> :lol2::lol2::lol2:


haha strange that she is ignoring the questions to why she uses the electric shock :hmm:she must have something to hide :devil:


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## leo19 (Mar 16, 2008)

er can i askis there some sort of RFUK mafia?:devil: if a new member admited to using the techniques others on this thread have, they would instantly get jumped on! why has she been excused!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Berber King said:


> Actually i have a bulldog due to their gentle nature.Its sad that you have to resort to personal insults when someone disagrees with you.For the record,im hung like the proverbial donkey,my choice of dog has nothing to do with it,ive just never felt the need to post pics of my tackle in the off-topic section,but gladly would to disprove your theory!


*Pats the man on the head*

There there, no need to prove your dominance over me dear. You see, some of us have much bigger more dominant breeds of dogs - ones that want to do what we tell them because they...well..want to do what we tell them. No rolling, posturing, shouting, growling, pushing, hanging, pinching, zapping, pounding on chests etc needed. Just fairness and patience. Not fluffyness either, but there's ways of proving you're boss without rolling a dog, nay, a PUPPY.

Would you like to meet Blu? He's 82kg of rescue dane. Not all of us fluffies treat out dogs like humans, but we dont have to resort to scaring the poo out of them either.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> *Pats the man on the head*
> 
> There there, no need to prove your dominance over me dear. You see, some of us have much bigger more dominant breeds of dogs - ones that want to do what we tell them because they...well..want to do what we tell them. No rolling, posturing, shouting, growling, pushing, hanging, pinching, zapping, pounding on chests etc needed. Just fairness and patience. Not fluffyness either, but there's ways of proving you're boss without rolling a dog, nay, a PUPPY.
> 
> Would you like to meet Blu? He's 82kg of rescue dane. Not all of us fluffies treat out dogs like humans, but we dont have to resort to scaring the poo out of them either.


:notworthy:


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> *Pats the man on the head*
> 
> There there, no need to prove your dominance over me dear. You see, some of us have much bigger more dominant breeds of dogs - ones that want to do what we tell them because they...well..want to do what we tell them. No rolling, posturing, shouting, growling, pushing, hanging, pinching, zapping, pounding on chests etc needed. Just fairness and patience. Not fluffyness either, but there's ways of proving you're boss without rolling a dog, nay, a PUPPY.
> 
> Would you like to meet Blu? He's 82kg of rescue dane. Not all of us fluffies treat out dogs like humans, but we dont have to resort to scaring the poo out of them either.


Ive said it many times already,its not about breed or size of dog,its about individuals,they all have different tempraments.You cannot interpret what someone should do with their individual dog,just because you are an armchair expert with a large rescue dog.Your arrogance is astounding.I will leave it here for your buddies to quote and add smileys to your no doubt witty and informative replies.There is no one "right" method,hence open forums are good for sharing personal experiences,without getting on your high horse if disagreed with.Put your blinkers back on,and keep believing in your keyboard hero authority.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Berber King said:


> Ive said it many times already,its not about breed or size of dog,its about individuals,they all have different tempraments.You cannot interpret what someone should do with their individual dog,just because you are an armchair expert with a large rescue dog.Your arrogance is astounding.I will leave it here for your buddies to quote and add smileys to your no doubt witty and informative replies.There is no one "right" method,hence open forums are good for sharing personal experiences,without getting on your high horse if disagreed with.Put your blinkers back on,and keep believing in your keyboard hero authority.


 
No, there is no one 'right' method. 

However, there are downright cruel and unnecesary methods.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

leo19 said:


> haha strange that she is ignoring the questions to why she uses the electric shock :hmm:she must have something to hide :devil:


 if I had anything to hide, why would I have offered to tell the details? Nobody as yet has actually asked me for the information.


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## Charlottie (Oct 4, 2008)

leo19 said:


> er can i askis there some sort of RFUK mafia?:devil: if a new member admited to using the techniques others on this thread have, they would instantly get jumped on! why has she been excused!


Agreed!! :notworthy:



fenwoman said:


> if I had anything to hide, why would I have offered to tell the details? Nobody as yet has actually asked me for the information.


Hmm.. I have!!! I have asked what the problem with the dog was, as im curious to what caused you to user a shock collar?!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Charlottie said:


> Agreed!! :notworthy:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm.. I have!!! I have asked what the problem with the dog was, as im curious to what caused you to user a shock collar?!


Maybe your on ignore!


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## Charlottie (Oct 4, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Maybe your on ignore!


Hmm.. I could be!


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## leo19 (Mar 16, 2008)

Charlottie said:


> Agreed!! :notworthy:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm.. I have!!! I have asked what the problem with the dog was, as im curious to what caused you to user a shock collar?!


well she can read it now!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

leo19 said:


> well she can read it now!


No-ones answered your question either!


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## Charlottie (Oct 4, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> No-ones answered your question either!


:lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

leo19 said:


> well she can read it now!


 I can indeed read it now. Charlottie is on my ignore list along with a couple of others due to their silly and spiteful abuse in the past. It makes my life easier. Since she is on my ignore list, I will ignore any communications from her. Should she want to know the ins and outs of past use of a shock collar some 14 years ago, on the direction and advice of Roger Mugford when I went for a consultation with him, then I have posted in the past about it and explained how and why. Ignore means ignore. She doesn't exist for me.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> I can indeed read it now. Charlottie is on my ignore list along with a couple of others due to their silly and spiteful abuse in the past. It makes my life easier. Since she is on my ignore list, I will ignore any communications from her. Should she want to know the ins and outs of past use of a shock collar some 14 years ago, on the direction and advice of Roger Mugford when I went for a consultation with him, then I have posted in the past about it and explained how and why. Ignore means ignore. She doesn't exist for me.


Ooooooooo!!! Miaow!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Charlotte is many things, but nasty & spiteful aren't any of them!


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## Charlottie (Oct 4, 2008)

Ok.. 
Would quote it but shes not going to see it :lol2: 



Zoo-Man said:


> Charlotte is many things, but nasty & spiteful aren't any of them!


Thank You =)


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## leo19 (Mar 16, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> I can indeed read it now. Charlottie is on my ignore list along with a couple of others due to their silly and spiteful abuse in the past. It makes my life easier. Since she is on my ignore list, I will ignore any communications from her. Should she want to know the ins and outs of past use of a shock collar some 14 years ago, on the direction and advice of Roger Mugford when I went for a consultation with him, then I have posted in the past about it and explained how and why. Ignore means ignore. She doesn't exist for me.


ah well thats why i said you must have something to hide, because you hadnt answered a question she had put, but if she is on ignore then that will be why


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

leo19 said:


> ah well thats why i said you must have something to hide, because you hadnt answered a question she had put, but if she is on ignore then that will be why


You'll be on ignore next if your not careful :lol2:


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## leo19 (Mar 16, 2008)

ha ok


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## avfc19 (Aug 11, 2008)

this is pathetic since when did this forum become a bullying and selfish and back stabbing forum what people do is there own buisness and fenwoman knows what shes doin she ent tellin u lot what to do so where do u get off doin it YOU ALL NEED TO GROW UP and before u start u can ave digs at me all u like it will just back my point up so can we get back on the topic please


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Thats funny, seeing as Fenwoman is one of the worst members for being bolshy & brash & harsh, even with new members asking for advice. And when she does it, its referred to as being blunt, but when others do it to her, it is bullying!


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## Charlottie (Oct 4, 2008)

avfc19 said:


> this is pathetic since when did this forum become a bullying and selfish and back stabbing forum what people do is there own buisness and fenwoman knows what shes doin she ent tellin u lot what to do so where do u get off doin it YOU ALL NEED TO GROW UP and before u start u can ave digs at me all u like it will just back my point up so can we get back on the topic please


Please inform me when i was 'bullying' fenwoman all i did was ask a question?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

BTW, I just watched Ceasar Milan drag a St bernard (who had a phobia of going up stairs) up a flight of stairs on a choke chain! Nice!


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## RepBex (Jan 17, 2008)

do u know how Ceasar Milan came about ?


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

RepBex said:


> do u know how Ceasar Milan came about ?


Mr Milan and Mrs Milan forgot to use a condom?


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## ferretman (May 11, 2008)

Fixx said:


> Mr Milan and Mrs Milan forgot to use a condom?


 
:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Fixx said:


> Mr Milan and Mrs Milan forgot to use a condom?


:lol2: bravo Fixx, nice one mate! :no1:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> BTW, I just watched Ceasar Milan drag a St bernard (who had a phobia of going up stairs) up a flight of stairs on a choke chain! Nice!


Was that Riley?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> Was that Riley?


I don't know, I wasn't listening to it particularly


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

Fixx said:


> Mr Milan and Mrs Milan forgot to use a condom?


and what a pity they did :lol2:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

That's not very nice. He might be completely doolally but I dont wish him dead. I just wish him off the telly and back into obscurity.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> That's not very nice. He might be completely doolally but I dont wish him dead. I just wish him off the telly and back into obscurity.


And to maybe have a pinch collar put round his neck & be dragged behind a car by it............
:lol2:


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> And to maybe have a pinch collar put round his neck & be dragged behind a car by it............
> :lol2:


You are so nasty :lol2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

butterfingersbimbo said:


> You are so nasty :lol2:


 What??? He thinks he is top dog & needs taking down in the heirachy! 
:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

If he were a dog, he'd be a little chihuahua I think. Mind you, some of them chis have big attitudes...(and bog eyes and bad teeth)...


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## Charlottie (Oct 4, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> What??? He thinks he is top dog & needs taking down in the heirachy!
> :Na_Na_Na_Na:


 So true !! :lol2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Milan is working with a Golden Retriever with food aggresssion now on Nat Geo Wild. The dog just pee'd when Milan went over to it to try to take away it's bone!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

No doubt pissing in terror is a dominance issue too. Wonder how many times he beat the dog (off camera?) before that. I pity any animal unlucky enough to get him as a trainer.


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

He probably thinks sleeping is a dominance issue :whistling2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

KathyM said:


> No doubt pissing in terror is a dominance issue too. Wonder how many times he beat the dog (off camera?) before that. I pity any animal unlucky enough to get him as a trainer.


I'm sorry but this is totally unjustified. If you made these insinuations about me, I would be seeking legal advice.
I have a couple of very timid dogs here who piddle themselves when I pay them any attention and I can assure you that I have never beaten them or offered any aggression at all.
You have no reason to suggest that he beats dogs off camera and to insinuate as much is tantamount to libel.
You don't like the man and don't like his methods. That's fine, but you should not publically suggest that he beats dogs.
On what basis do you hold this belief?


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I've seen him hit, poke, choke and hang dogs on camera, so it's hardly a libellous leap lol. : victory:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Dont forget kick! I mean "tap"...


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

and don't forget grab & hurl off the sofa!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Milan just used a pinch collar on a JRT who got excited when the owners used the garbage disposal unit! :devil:


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## ophidianman (Sep 5, 2008)

KathyM said:


> LOL you're absolutely right of course, everyone has a choice but when someone suggests Milan's tactics on Joe Public's dogs I can onl giggle in my head at the idea of the outcome of slapping, hanging, or alpha rolling a nervous aggressive rottweiler for example. Somehow think his insurance won't cover him getting sued for manslaughter lol. Mind you, if people are daft enough to try it it makes sense to eliminate them from the gene pool. :Na_Na_Na_Na:: victory::lol2:



:lolsign::2thumb: Thanks for a good chuckle.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> and don't forget grab & hurl off the sofa!


And he smiles when he's doing it with those sparkly super white Jon-Bon-Jovi rental-dentals (arrgh my eyes, my EYES!) :gasp:


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Milan just used a pinch collar on a JRT who got excited when the owners used the garbage disposal unit! :devil:


WOW he's such a hero!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

And of course he only works with these so called red-zone cases which would be put to sleep if they aren't trained. Because of course, a dog that jumps up at the garbage disposal unit is a real danger isn't it! Or a dog that is petrified of having it's claws clipped should of course never be allowed out in public!


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

actually I would like Milan to take my dog to see if he could 'cure her' I wouldnt like to see her wear a shock or pinch collar as I personally disagree with that but I have been told by numerous behaviourists andtrainers that she is dog and fear aggressive and we have done a lot of work with her - she will now walk past a dog on the opposite side of the road (previously not done) but not walk past a dog on the same side of the road and she is horrific at vets and at having physical interventions done - when my hubby and I got together she wouldnt let us even pick up her back feet and she was nearly PTS prior to hubby convincing the dog rescue centre not to put her down -she had bitten hubby numerous times but not me and will now allow me to do basic maintenence care other than cliping her nails - we have even been barred from a vertinary centre and have actually been advised by a trainer to have her PTS in the past - nail clipping is an horrendous nightmare still to this day and despite an immense improvement since my involvement in her ( hubby used ot let her get away with anything and not that I am great I just sought advice) I would really like to see this 'wonder' transformation that is depicted in 'TV programmes'


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Sky used to hate having her nails clipped, she had to be muzzled at the vets, and sedated before hand. She'd obviously had a very bad experience in her previous home


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> Sky used to hate having her nails clipped, she had to be muzzled at the vets, and sedated before hand. She'd obviously had a very bad experience in her previous home


 A lot of dogs are very foot sensitive, even if they have never had a bad experience. It only takes one groomer to cut a nail too short and make it bleed, and the memory of the extreme pain will stay with her forever.
Several of my rescues really don't like it, but they'll let me do it as they trust me. When I was grooming, I would always try to do it without muzzling, even if I spent half an hour talking to the dog and calming it. But then I would never strap a dog up to clip it either.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> A lot of dogs are very foot sensitive, even if they have never had a bad experience. It only takes one groomer to cut a nail too short and make it bleed, and the memory of the extreme pain will stay with her forever.
> Several of my rescues really don't like it, but they'll let me do it as they trust me. When I was grooming, I would always try to do it without muzzling, even if I spent half an hour talking to the dog and calming it. But then I would never strap a dog up to clip it either.


I used to do tricky ones in the bath with the shower running - it worked quite well since the noise of the shower drowned the clip noise and most dogs are ok about having their feet washed and handled in the bath even when they dont like it out of the bath. Plus the warm water softens the nail. Better still if someone is actively washing the dog while you cut the nail - it seems to throw out their ability to focus on which bit they hate having done the most, so they can't concentrate on biting the nail clipping monster. :lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Evie said:


> I used to do tricky ones in the bath with the shower running - it worked quite well since the noise of the shower drowned the clip noise and most dogs are ok about having their feet washed and handled in the bath even when they dont like it out of the bath. Plus the warm water softens the nail. Better still if someone is actively washing the dog while you cut the nail - it seems to throw out their ability to focus on which bit they hate having done the most, so they can't concentrate on biting the nail clipping monster. :lol2:


 clipping in the bath is a good idea. Never thought of that one. I used to spout poetry loudly, or sing (I am tone deaf and have an awful singing voice). Since dogs are like most men, and can only seem to concentrate on one thing at a time, singing loudly seemed to be enough of a distraction lol.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> clipping in the bath is a good idea. Never thought of that one. *I used to spout poetry loudly, or sing* (I am tone deaf and have an awful singing voice). Since dogs are like most men, and can only seem to concentrate on one thing at a time, singing loudly seemed to be enough of a distraction lol.


Bloody hell - my mother used to work with me and she used to read to them from Enid Blyton books while they were being styled - bonkers but we all enjoyed the stories!!!:lol2::lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Evie said:


> Bloody hell - my mother used to work with me and she used to read to them from Enid Blyton books while they were being styled - bonkers but we all enjoyed the stories!!!:lol2::lol2:


 I find it really does relax them. I do the same at the vets with nervy dogs. Chatter away to them or sing (my poor vet). Your mum was on my wavelength obviously hehe.


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