# Shocked by uk law



## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

I was in the local rep shop today and overheard the owner to talking to a guy about the tv how that was on the other day about the guy who let all his lions and tigers out in america. Which was quite an intresting show, at this time i butted in and talked a bit about the show and made the comment " doubt you would get someone like that here". 

He then said that its not hard to get any of those animals and hes surprised it hasnt happened already, with the current uk laws if you hold a reptile shop license it means you can be classed as a zoo and he said on his stocklists he can buy baby tigers for £400 and he has a choice of a lot of large cats and mammals. This really surprised me that someone who owns a shop can buy lions and tigers, surely this is a massive danger ? As people and wild animals dont mix well especially in a small shop. He did say they are trying to change the law but that will take some time

Really shocked that they allow this in the uk, how many people actually own lions and tigers in the uk


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

I'm sure you'd need a DWA at least! Although I'm not exactly knowledgeable on this


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

I cant remember his exact words but i think he said in order for him to sell you one all you need is a DWA license. Which seems a bit stupid as i dont think they are that hard to get


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## Dave Balls (Jan 26, 2011)

you should have ordered one, see if he can come through with it. : victory:


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

DWA applications differ depending on your county apparently, usually it's a fee and someone to check facilities (this is what I know from the DWA section  ). 

Call me boring but I'd never get a DWA animal, don't think I'd be comfortable having a tiger in my back garden!


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

i was going through older stock lists in a pet shop i worked in and it has monkeys and other exotics on it including tigers and raindeer


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## Gar1on (Mar 27, 2012)

You would need either a DWA or pet shop license (not a reptile shop license - they don't exist). Further, you aren't treated as a 'zoo' but a pet shop who can stock these animals providing you have the appropriate conditions in which to keep them (similar to DWA conditions).

Certain big cats are indeed relatively cheap to purchase - certainly cheaper than you would imagine. That is because they are incredibly expensive to maintain. In order to get a license to keep one you would need to demonstrate to the issuing local authority that you were able to pay for the upkeep of the animal(s) in question - most people could not. They are cheap but you won't find many people keeping because they won't get the license for it and, as a rule, those selling them wont sell them without seeing the relevant license.

If they were that easy to get hold of, every chav in Britain would have a tiger chilling in his or her front garden.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

As above really, they really are not that expensive to buy at all. But to be able to purchase them on a PSL you need to have them on the PSL which mean you have to demonstrate you can care for them and then get it approved by the council, which is unlikely. Some as a DWA. Or move of Southern Ireland where there are no restrictions. 

jay


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

What i was more concered about was the amount of danger a crooked pet shop owner could cause.


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## Gar1on (Mar 27, 2012)

herper147 said:


> What i was more concered about was the amount of danger a crooked pet shop owner could cause.


One hopes that a 'crooked' pet shop owner would not be granted a license, or the permission to keep an animal like this?

The point is the issuing authority would need to see you had a large and regular source of income in order to maintain the animal in question - why waste that money just to be.. Crooked? It makes no sense really!


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## George_Millett (Feb 26, 2009)

herper147 said:


> I cant remember his exact words but i think he said in order for him to sell you one all you need is a DWA license. Which seems a bit stupid as i dont think they are that hard to get


Come down and have a look at the DWA section. There is a thread with some guidance on what you need to do. 

Part of it does include a Vet inspection and is one of the things that does not change on a county by county process. This is geared to ensure the animal you want to keep is going to be securely housed and is not going to get out. 

It is not as easy to get a license as you might think and depending on the local authority it could be very expensive as it needs renewing every 2 years and some Local authorities still insist on annual inspections.


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

George_Millett said:


> Come down and have a look at the DWA section. There is a thread with some guidance on what you need to do.
> 
> Part of it does include a Vet inspection and is one of the things that does not change on a county by county process. This is geared to ensure the animal you want to keep is going to be securely housed and is not going to get out.
> 
> It is not as easy to get a license as you might think and depending on the local authority it could be very expensive as it needs renewing every 2 years and some Local authorities still insist on annual inspections.


I had a look at that thread and it does seem a lot harder to be granted a license then i thought. I always assumed it was a matter of if you got the money to turn adapt a room and pay license fees you will be given one, but i suppose what they have in place is pretty good.

Think i was shocked initially because he made it sound so common and easy to own one, and you always associate tigers with zoos.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Ever heard the expression "all mouth & trousers"??? :whistling2:

It's definitely not as easy as he made it sound. Usually it's 'brokers' that get in specific large cats and DWA animals for private collections who are already license to keep them.


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## aquajird (Oct 27, 2010)

There was an investigative journalism type programme on TV about 10 years ago about this. The producers were made aware that a petshop/garden centre type place in Enfield was boasting about being able to get hold of DWA mammals if you had the money. So the producers managed to get hold of a lion which was traced back to a defunct zoo somewhere in Essex. They paid their money, turnec up with a truck and left with a lion. It was as easy as that!


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## HalfYeti (Aug 4, 2012)

One of the things you have to take into consideration is that up until 1976 and the introduction of the Dangerous Wild Animals Act, you could quite easily keep any wild animal as a pet, no licence involved. In the 60s, it was semi-routine for those who wanted to be hip and cool to parade around with a tiger or lion on a lead.

There is a famous lion called Christian who was bought in Harrods of all places, as you would but an MP3 player today! He was one of the luucky ones and was released back into the wild in a Born Free fashion, but think of how many unlucky animals were hidden away from investigation when their owners had to prove responsibility for them. What could have become of them if they fell into the hands of the unscrupulous? Some people say, in a very conspiracy theory way that animals released at this time, panthers and the like, are responsible for creating the wild big cat myth, the Beast of Bodmin etc.

Unfortunately, as with anything in this world, everything is available for a price, even Simba!


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

HalfYeti said:


> One of the things you have to take into consideration is that up until 1976 and the introduction of the Dangerous Wild Animals Act, you could quite easily keep any wild animal as a pet, no licence involved. In the 60s, it was semi-routine for those who wanted to be hip and cool to parade around with a tiger or lion on a lead.
> 
> There is a famous lion called Christian who was bought in Harrods of all places, as you would but an MP3 player today! He was one of the luucky ones and was released back into the wild in a *Born Free fashion*, but think of how many unlucky animals were hidden away from investigation when their owners had to prove responsibility for them. What could have become of them if they fell into the hands of the unscrupulous? Some people say, in a very conspiracy theory way that animals released at this time, panthers and the like, are responsible for creating the wild big cat myth, the Beast of Bodmin etc.
> 
> Unfortunately, as with anything in this world, everything is available for a price, even Simba!


Not so much a born free fashion, but the very story that born free was based on, lol.

Yes, it is possible to get these animals and cause havoc, but its easy to get a car and cause havoc, or a gun or anything. As long as there are regulations (such as DWA) to control them, I see no issue with private individuals keeping them.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Tarron said:


> Not so much a born free fashion, but the very story that born free was based on, lol.


Surely not the same story? The Born Free story was a true tale about Joy Adamson having a lesbian affair with a lioness called Elsa, wasn't it?


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Tarron said:


> Not so much a born free fashion, but the very story that born free was based on, lol..


No, not at all.

"Born Free" was the story of George & Joy Adamson's experience with Elsa the Lioness. The connection is that Christian was taken to George Adamson's reserve and released there. that is George Adamson in the videos on You Tube of Christian reuniting with the 2 men a year later. It's nothing to do with Elsa and the "Born Free" story.


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## HalfYeti (Aug 4, 2012)

I'd respond with a "I generalised it a little wrong" but I can't quite get over the mrcriss post.


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

If memory serves,the pet shop that got the lion was enfield reptile centre,and it came from basildon zoo.What the t.v people failed to mention is,the only person who broke the law was the t.v guy for BUYING it without a licence.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

HalfYeti said:


> I'd respond with a "I generalised it a little wrong" but I can't quite get over the mrcriss post.


Sorry don't know what you mean! :crazy:

Surely his response was to Tarron, as was mine, that this wasn't the actual "Born Free" story.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

HalfYeti said:


> I'd respond with a "I generalised it a little wrong" but I can't quite get over the mrcriss post.


was taken from a book by Durrell I think.:lol2:


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

feorag said:


> No, not at all.
> 
> "Born Free" was the story of George & Joy Adamson's experience with Elsa the Lioness. The connection is that Christian was taken to George Adamson's reserve and released there. that is George Adamson in the videos on You Tube of Christian reuniting with the 2 men a year later. It's nothing to do with Elsa and the "Born Free" story.


Fair point, I got my stories mixed and crossed, though in my defence there are close similarities : victory:


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> If memory serves,the pet shop that got the lion was enfield reptile centre,and it came from basildon zoo.What the t.v people failed to mention is,the only person who broke the law was the t.v guy for BUYING it without a licence.


 
but shop would of been breaking the law by not checking if they had a licence


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

No ,you do not have to see someones licence,this is where the law falls apart.You can import DWA species and no one asks to see a licence,its ridiculous.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

George_Millett said:


> Part of it does include a Vet inspection and is one of the things that does not change on a county by county process. This is geared to ensure the animal you want to keep is going to be securely housed and is not going to get out.


That may be the intention but not always the practice. I have a pet shop licence and was never vet checked - I was told 'draw me a detailed floor plan and I might be able to save you the vet inspection.' Which is what happened! Good job Ive never sold anything dangerous eh?!
On a serious note, you do have to put down every species you intend to sell for the licence duration, but then again, its like DWA - who polices any of it really? There are some estimates that put non compliance with DWAL at nearly 95 % !


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

5plusmany said:


> its like DWA - who polices any of it really? There are some estimates that put non compliance with DWAL at nearly 95 % !


Thas my girl! statistics statistics :lol2:

what are you some kind of researcher or something?


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

I can believe the figures for DWA animals being held without a licence,but i would bet 90% of them are venomous snakes.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Lol Pouchie..

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Yes I think it would be much harder to keep a Serval, for example, a secret!


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## TalulaTarantula (Jan 21, 2011)

I'l never forget, as part of my animal manag'mnt course we watched some video, that as a customer they went in with hidden cameras to britain's worse pet shops.

basically to make this story short, some dodgey owner sells the guy a lion, they go to pick her up and theres all sorts of big cats and other DWA's, a woman that was in on it, stated "i dont care what happens to her, she can end up as dog meat for all i care" there was a vet in on it too,

They purchase the lion, and take it to longleat to live out her life there, turns out this lion was originally from longleat, was sent to a zoo in germany but got "lost" along the way.

I hope this country never ends up like america. not for the sake of the people but the animals, big cats arent some pet you can keep in a field.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

TalulaTarantula said:


> I hope this country never ends up like america. not for the sake of the people but the animals, big cats arent some pet you can keep in a field.


I think, in that programme from the other night, the cats (and bears) were actually confined to their cages. Its just that the owner had some sort of meltdown and let them all free!
Watching it, all I could think of is that it was the fault of the state and only the state for their ridiculously lax regulations. As a result they allowed a mentally unstable man's life to spiral out of control - to the point of suicide; caused a massive emergency, the consequences of which the officers involved have to live with forever; and the ongoing suffering and eventual death of scores of amazing animals. And at the end they said some states still have little or no regulations today..?!:bash:
Soz had to have a rant there...


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

Something should have been done way,way before he let them all out.The sheriff said they had been called out several times for welfare issues regarding the conditions the animals were kept in ,and yet still done nothing.The conditions were awful.At least you would not get that over here with big cats,just everything else!


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