# Cruelty in the reptile trade



## Hissy Missy (Dec 6, 2009)

For those of you that are intrested, ive found a peice on the internet on the abuse and cruelty on reptiles within the trade. It highlights the importance of knowing who you are dealing with and knowing where your animals and animal related products are being sourced from.Its a long read, but its intresting, or at least i thought so.... 

ANIMALS ASIA


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## GRS (Feb 20, 2008)

Great post.The WC fan club on this forum would do well to read this report.Though from my experiance most seem only interested in their personal snake/s that are in the box at home with the only worries voiced about WC being self-centered questions on feeding with the emphasis clearly aimed toward not wanting to get stuck with the hassle or cost of a none feeder.The subject of impact on wild populations being totaly ingnored.The avoidance of this being driven by ignorance or convenience is in no way defensible.


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

the only goods about wc specimins is the academic values and the purifying blood lines and the new visual genetics.

learning from how they are in their wild state.
no captive bred pet snake should have a wild state as they should not have suffered torment from natural elements like predator, having to ambush for days on end etc.

the torment a snake goes through in the wild makes them undocile to humans, this enables a much better experience at taming the species.
ofcourse much harder to work with. but if you succeed its generally quite an accomplishment compared to captive bred and captive farmed.

and ofcourse the occasional wild caught specimin to keep bloodlines pure when breeding and pure locality bloodlines.

and the new genetics (which are also cf'ed) which encourage the hobbys publicity in encourages new people into wanting to know about the snakes.


theyre the only reasons i can see why wc benefit the pet trade.


i dont know how much money wc animal trade brings into certain cultures though, i asume its like £3 or less a ball python or something.


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## Hissy Missy (Dec 6, 2009)

well it isnt all that much money, as altho its not a snake, you can scoop up a tokay gecko from the wild, bung em in a bag, ship them thousands of miles, pay import tax and vets fees at this end, and STILL sell them for a tenner AND make a profit...its disgusting....
I work for a shipping company and deal with import tax and such for customs. I had the pleasure of phoning a woman the other day who had paid £9000 for a pure alligator skin handbag ffs (altho neglected to look into it enuff to know she needed cites papers)....and if that wasnt enough, she promptly told me that had she known the tax on it was going to be £1000 she wouldnt of had them shot in the first place because "the animal is not worth that much"....yes, she had 2 shot, was sent photos of the underbelly and chose the one she liked best for her handbag, it makes you sick....and i nearly lost my job telling her so, had i of had the sense to note her address and the money to pay the tax myself i would of taken it round there AND RAMMED IT DOWN HER NECK!!! ARRRGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

While we should all be considering the impact our hobby might be/is having on wild populations of animals in various places, websites like that are not entirely factual.

These websites are full of emotive language, "facts" and statistics touted as proof or spun out of context.

30m turtles p/a exported from the US, as a percentage of estimated wild populations, how significant is that? 1%? 50%?
Not one of the photos on the right pertains to farmed or captured animals for the pet trade.

And finally, you should add a pinch of salt to it when you see these two things listed as "sources";



> The Reptile Pet Trade. Animal Aid 2006. Animal Aid: Latest News & Campaigns
> 
> Warwick, C. (1986) Euthanasia of reptiles - decapitation: an inhumane method of slaughter for the class Reptilia. Canadian Veterinary Journal 27: 34 World Chelonian Trust World Chelonian Trust - Turtle and Tortoise Conservation and Care


By all means look into the situation but make sure this is the least of your sources, impartial of conservation based sources should be where you look to.


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

*editted*


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

GRS said:


> Great post.The WC fan club on this forum would do well to read this report.Though from my experiance most seem only interested in their personal snake/s that are in the box at home with the only worries voiced about WC being self-centered questions on feeding with the emphasis clearly aimed toward not wanting to get stuck with the hassle or cost of a none feeder.The subject of impact on wild populations being totaly ingnored.


I wouldnt say the wild populations are being ignored....theres many conditions in place to stop animals from becoming critically low.
And you mention fussy feeders??? sorry but i have alot of WC snakes...i dont have a single non feeder...my mangroves for example are greedy feeders....wc importing should only be done by people who have a basic understandings of reptile parasitology....and getting snakes to feed.



Hissy Missy said:


> well it isnt all that much money, as altho its not a snake, you can scoop up a tokay gecko from the wild, bung em in a bag,


Again i understand your job but this isnt always true and you shouldnt tarn all with the same brush....my maylasian contact is extremely passionate about his reptiles...he does educational talks and his export bussiness keeps his kids in school. Non of the animals from him are just "bunged" into a bag....


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

33 retics were cited export for their leather in 1995 in the ES.


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## Hissy Missy (Dec 6, 2009)

wildlifewarrior said:


> Again i understand your job but this isnt always true and you shouldnt tarn all with the same brush....my maylasian contact is extremely passionate about his reptiles...he does educational talks and his export bussiness keeps his kids in school. Non of the animals from him are just "bunged" into a bag....


i understand what you say, and im sorry, i should have said, it is a limited practice and there are some good people out there, but sadly in todays society the bad stuff sticks in your mind more so....


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## Hissy Missy (Dec 6, 2009)

boidae said:


> 33 retics were cited export for their leather in 1995 in the ES.


 look at hogg island boas too, hunted into almost wild extinction for their skins...


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

someone said they used to import wc hog island specimins in high numbers for the pet trade and sell them to the public £35 each about 10 or so years ago or something, cant remember the conversation much.

what about blue thin tuna selling for like $80,000 for 1 specimin for the food industry.

people making millions while making things going extinct.


its more to do with educating the public, would only take millenia to make people bothered about these things.


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## Hissy Missy (Dec 6, 2009)

boidae said:


> someone said they used to import wc hog island specimins in high numbers for the pet trade and sell them to the public £35 each about 10 or so years ago or something, cant remember the conversation much.
> 
> what about blue thin tuna selling for like $80,000 for 1 specimin for the food industry.
> 
> ...


you know you can go to africa and pay a huge amunt of money for the "pleasure" of shooting a lion or such?


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

boidae said:


> someone said they used to import wc hog island specimins in high numbers for the pet trade and sell them to the public £35 each about 10 or so years ago or something, cant remember the conversation much.
> 
> what about blue thin tuna selling for like $80,000 for 1 specimin for the food industry.
> 
> ...


 i went to a lecture last year on hog island boas and the island can not sustain its own population once the females get to about 5 foot they basically starve to death


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## Hissy Missy (Dec 6, 2009)

i wonderd why they stayed so small...


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

penfold said:


> i went to a lecture last year on hog island boas and the island can not sustain its own population once the females get to about 5 foot they basically starve to death


 
speculating from that.

its weird though because theyre adapted to that island which takes thousand/hundreds of thousand/millenia of years to adapt?
so they must have survived 5 ft previously. ecosystem must be screwed or changed?

unless theyre still adapting to dwarfish sizes


what was the actual reason they starve in the lecture?


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

Its just animal rights overemoted take on events by the sounds of it...



> Animals destined for the pet trade are indiscriminately sold to "owners" who have little or no knowledge how to keep or feed them appropriately; it is estimated that more than 90% of wild caught reptiles destined for the pet trade die within a year of capture. Many are abandoned or mistreated by their new owners.


no real facts or figures.. I could put out a similar statement about the dangers of donuts...

"donuts destined for human consumption are indiscriminately sold to humans who have little or no knowledge of nutritional values, It is estimated that 90% of donuts destined for the human food chain cause morbid obesity causing humans to suffer and die usually within years, the financial burden on the NHS caused by donut abuse is estimated to be in the millions"

There are no facts to suggest 90% of wild caught reptiles die within a year

There are no facts to suggest they are indiscriminately sold to "owners" who have little or no knowledge how to keep or feed them 

There are no facts to suggest many are abandoned or mistreated by their new owners

And for turtles being shipped from the usa to asia for food, these are farmed for that very purpose, they are not plucked from ponds they are commercially produced on a large scale for food, although i cant see the attraction of eating a turtle, surely for our asian freinds its better to buy farmed turtles than pluck an endangered one from the local river?


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

CITES Trade data download tool


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

LFBP-NEIL said:


> Its just animal rights overemoted take on events by the sounds of it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it could be a more precise statistic to illegally traded animals.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

how could anyone know? once they are in the country of destination and into the trade there is no follow up on if they died or not, if they were imported illegally they are held at customs and then rehomed, once rehomed theres no follow up, the only statistics they could have would be mortality rates of shipments as they land in the destination country, if it was typically as high as 90% - it would not be financially viable to import animals.


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

LFBP-NEIL said:


> how could anyone know? once they are in the country of destination and into the trade there is no follow up on if they died or not, if they were imported illegally they are held at customs and then rehomed, once rehomed theres no follow up, the only statistics they could have would be mortality rates of shipments as they land in the destination country, if it was typically as high as 90% - it would not be financially viable to import animals.


a bit generalised too.
could be 500,000 geckos imported and 100,000 snakes and 800,000 turtles etc.

could be statistics from one genus.


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

Hissy Missy said:


> you know you can go to africa and pay a huge amunt of money for the "pleasure" of shooting a lion or such?


 i know, i plan to do that for my birthday sometime in the future.


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

boidae said:


> speculating from that.
> 
> its weird though because theyre adapted to that island which takes thousand/hundreds of thousand/millenia of years to adapt?
> so they must have survived 5 ft previously. ecosystem must be screwed or changed?
> ...


not enough food


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## masticophis (Jan 14, 2007)

Hissy Missy said:


> you know you can go to africa and pay a huge amunt of money for the "pleasure" of shooting a lion or such?


BUT....

Does that mean that to make sue that lion was there that a park was setup to preserve the wildlife in there? Ok preserved so the lion can be shot but at least maybe the land can't be used for anything else then so it might benefit the majority of animals in there.

NOT saying that shooting the lion is right but if shooting a few lions in a reserve means that the lions are kept alive as a species rather than shot and wiped out because they are taking the locals livestock. Is that making it better.

Unfortunately nothing is black and white, sometimes you have to pick the best of a bad bunch. 

Mike

P.S. THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT AGAINST YOU, just showing that maybe other things sometimes have to be considered.


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

penfold said:


> not enough food


but for an animal to adapt to an island it was a sustainable ecosystem?

so numbers would have been steady. it wouldnt have been that theory that made them become rarer or endangered.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

boidae said:


> but for an animal to adapt to an island it was a sustainable ecosystem?
> 
> so numbers would have been steady. it wouldnt have been that theory that made them become rarer or endangered.


I looked into the Hog Island boa story a few years ago when an AR group was claiming they were extinct due to the pet trade. I found a UK conservation group that were working on the islands and the story I got told was that the small amount of colletion for the pet trade from the islands had been going on for manyl years without doing to much damage to the population and was an important source of income to the native population. Then about twenty years ago rats had arrived on the island and had started eating the young boas. This caused the rapid population crash that left less than fifty adult animals surviving on the islands. 
In an attempt to save the boa's a programme of poisoning was set up to kill all the rats (and of course other rodents) on the islands. As a result the boas began to re-populate the islands but now depend on the less nutritional birds and lizards as their main source of food.

Natrix


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Hissy Missy said:


> well it isnt all that much money, as altho its not a snake, you can scoop up a tokay gecko from the wild, bung em in a bag, ship them thousands of miles, pay import tax and vets fees at this end, and STILL sell them for a tenner AND make a profit...its disgusting....
> I work for a shipping company and deal with import tax and such for customs. I had the pleasure of phoning a woman the other day who had paid £9000 for a pure alligator skin handbag ffs (altho neglected to look into it enuff to know she needed cites papers)....and if that wasnt enough, she promptly told me that had she known the tax on it was going to be £1000 she wouldnt of had them shot in the first place because "the animal is not worth that much"....yes, she had 2 shot, was sent photos of the underbelly and chose the one she liked best for her handbag, it makes you sick....and i nearly lost my job telling her so, had i of had the sense to note her address and the money to pay the tax myself i would of taken it round there AND RAMMED IT DOWN HER NECK!!! ARRRGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!


Perhaps you need to do a bit of unbiased research and not believe everything you read on animal Rights web sites.

A huge amount of crocodilian conservation work has taken place over the last few decades. One of the biggest achievements has been the world wide use of the so called crocodile farms were these creatures are legally kept and bred. Some of the animals bred on the farms are used to repopulate the wild and others are killed for use as meat and leather goods which are sold to bring in an income for the farm and it's workers so that they can continue their work. Cities papers can be provided by these farms if asked for but not all countries require them so you would need to ask when ordering.
Your lady (regardless of her feelings towards the crocs) had probably just unknowingly donated £9000 towards crocodilian conservation. You on the other hand may just of stopped her and her wealthy friends from investing any future money into crocodilian conservation projects.

The whole wild harvest thing is far more complicated than the AR groups would have you believe. Genuine conservation groups such as the WWF have shown many times that putting a value onto wild life and wild places is the quickest and most secure method of conserving the animal life and it's habitat in third world countries. Even canned hunts have been shown to have a positive conservation effect. If the local population can earn a sustainable living from their surroundings, they will protect it, but stop the trade and everything becomes worthless and they destroy the wild habitats to grow crops. 
A recent study by one of the bird conservation groups has shown that the recent ban on importing African grey parrots has actually caused more parrots to die. Once the trade to Europe was stopped the locals looked for and found a new market for the birds. They now kill all the birds as they send the heads (a delicacy) to Asia and sell the bodies at their local food market for a few pennies. The catch is they need more birds to earn the same amount of money as they made from the pet trade.
These people have to eat and will survive in what ever way they can regardless of what we might think.

Natrix


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## citronella (Dec 15, 2009)

Although I find myself agreeing with what Natrix said I can see no need for the terrible cruelty that is involved in the skinning alive of a beautiful python just so someone with more money than sense can have a fashion item to show off with for a couple of nights out. It is sick.


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

its a bit weird people do that.
as though they have authority over another organism.

authority eh. cant be trusting governments.


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## fishboy (Aug 7, 2007)

boidae said:


> its a bit weird people do that.
> as though they have authority over another organism.
> 
> authority eh. cant be trusting governments.


or the little green men in your head :mf_dribble:


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