# Ban the Bulb? Affecting the hobby!



## Reptilover (Jan 15, 2007)

*Banning the bulb.*








​_This post was origonally posted by me in the lizard section but without lngh or details about it. Would be good to make this a sticky untill they actually take action or whatever._

_On the 1st of January this year, the United Kingdom's government and bulb retailers came into a clash after the government suggesting (Or make that demanding) they wanted them to "phase out" the ineffecient light bulbs which are avaliable on the market. In other words it means they want to ban the bulbs. _

_It's shown that if they did ban the bulbs it would save 2 to 5 million tonnes of CO2 per year in the United Kingdom alone. Also there would be a save of 23 to 53 million tonnes of CO2 per year in the EU. _

_These are the campaign goals;_

_- _Ban the sale of incandescents by specific dates.​_- _Ban 60W + 100W incandescents first (bayonet + screw).
- Ban other incandescent designs later.

_Now many of you will be saying, that's great, it will save the planet and some of my well earned money... _

_Hold your horses and think about it, many people across the UK use these types of bulb's in there reptile setups and enclosures. If these were to be banned, then what would happen? It could just be tragic, as you know the energy saving bulbs avaliable either dont fit or are just simply not hot enough to heat a vivarium. Even the reptile retailed light bulbs which are usually used in bearded dragons vivariums are incandesant and there on the hitlist. _

_This just simply car'nt be healthy for the hobby, clearly the government hav'nt considered everything. However it's not all to be feared and it could be down to large groups and zoo's. Most zoo's keep large reptiles that need large wattage bulbs which will soon be banned, i very much doubt they will put up with this! There even banning the 60watt incandesant bulbs! _

_On the other thread people have said they will stock up on 100 watt bulbs ect, but surely they will run out eventually. All your idea's are welcome on this thread, do not spam it with junk, put forward your idea's and advise. _


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

I went into my local Pagazzi and they explainied it properly..
there will be bulbs available they are just slightly different.. PHILLIPS I THINK ARE DOING THEM

we looked at the full range and u wil still be able to buy ones that would at least be suitable for a beardie tank etc..

im sure specialist reptile bulbs wil stil have to be made because one law in the Uk is also that animals must be kept correctly..

so it stands to reason they wil have to provide something legally for the animals otherwise the government is going against its own laws for animal welfare

I will try to get more info on the full range but the lady explained they are bringing out 100 watt softones and 60 wat soft tones.. not clear bulbs right enough but thats the replacement


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

i'm going to buy a few crates of the bulbs i need and stock up on them


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

These are just normal light bulbs aren't they? A normal light bulb is a very inefficient way to provide heat as they are designed to give off light, not heat.

There are plenty of reptile specific (UV/ full spectrum etc) lights available for reptiles if it's light that you need...and if you need to provide heat then what's wrong with a ceramic bulb and/or heat mat etc etc??


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> These are just normal light bulbs aren't they? A normal light bulb is a very inefficient way to provide heat as they are designed to give off light, not heat.
> 
> There are plenty of reptile specific (UV/ full spectrum etc) lights available for reptiles if it's light that you need...and if you need to provide heat then what's wrong with a ceramic bulb and/or heat mat etc etc??


i use spot bulbs for in the day


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

High output bulbs are required for many elements of industry and hobbies - for example, rearing chicks & incubating eggs and growing certain plants, being two extremely large ones just off the top of my head, let alone the massive reptile industry.

If there is a ban, then tesco and other retailers may have to stop selling marketted "household bulbs", but you can guarantee there will still be "specialist bulbs", for the wide variety of needs for which there isn't an adequate energy saving replacement.

I have absolutely no doubt that exo terra bulbs and all the other reptile specialists will still be available as usual, this is a multi million pound industry for them, if they were told they had to discontinue all of their basking products, you would hear an uproar!


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> i use spot bulbs for in the day


But my point is that they're not a product designed for reptiles...and there are better products (that almost certainly wouldn't be covered by this ban) that are specifically designed for reptiles/animals.

Basically, there is no need to be using these products in the reptile hobby...and given that they are inefficient and potentially harmful to the environment it's right that they should be phased out.

In the long run it would be better for our hobby if more hobbyists supported products specifically made for the hobby (when such products are available) rather than relying on non-reptile related alternatives.


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## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

There is currently no ban...

The EU is pushing for a ban, but right now it's entirely voluntary whether or not retailers stock the bulbs. As other people have said, even if a ban happened it would be on the sale of household-marketed bulbs, not on specialist ones.

Even if the EU did manage to ban all high-wattage spot lights, we'd still be able to use MVBs, MH bulbs, combinations of focussed ceramic heaters and low energy halogen-mimicing spotlights etc. It would take years and years for them to "phase out" the lower wattage spotlights (in the region of 40W); two 40W bulbs would be fine for a basking spot.

If / when it does happen all it will mean is we have to put a bit more thought into the way in which we heat and light our cages. I really don't see even an all-out ban on incandescant bulbs being the beginning of the end for reptile keeping...


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## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> But my point is that they're not a product designed for reptiles...and there are better products (that almost certainly wouldn't be covered by this ban) that are specifically designed for reptiles/animals.
> 
> Basically, there is no need to be using these products in the reptile hobby...and given that they are inefficient and potentially harmful to the environment it's right that they should be phased out.
> 
> In the long run it would be better for our hobby if more hobbyists supported products specifically made for the hobby (when such products are available) rather than relying on non-reptile related alternatives.


 
But then you come onto cost. Is everything in your setups designed by reptile specialists? Look at RUBS, totally none specialist but so popular its ridiculous. Some people havent got the money to buy specialist products which are general 2x the price of a normal none reptile brand. 

Beardies for instance are attracted to the light source, they sit out in the sun and is therefore alot more natural for them to bask under the lighest=hottest area. Theres nothing wrong using normal bulbs for them. And snakes can be prevented from getting near bulbs with bulb guards. Bulb + bulb guard + dimmer stat is cheaper than ceramic + pulse pro stat, and price shouldn't be a deciding factor when it comes to a hobby like this.

In regards to being harmful so can specific reptile products such as ceramics or reptile bulbs, there is no less danger from these products. There all variations of bulbs and the bulbs that specifically emit heat rather than light get hotter, so therefore are they not more harmful?


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> But my point is that they're not a product designed for reptiles...and there are better products (that almost certainly wouldn't be covered by this ban) that are specifically designed for reptiles/animals.
> 
> Basically, there is no need to be using these products in the reptile hobby...and given that they are inefficient and potentially harmful to the environment it's right that they should be phased out.
> 
> In the long run it would be better for our hobby if more hobbyists supported products specifically made for the hobby (when such products are available) rather than relying on non-reptile related alternatives.


 
what 'better products'? MVB's, yep but you need a viv big enough for it to work without overheating the viv. A standard reptile branded spotlight is no different to any other spot light and not exactly designed for reptiles.


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## xclairex (Apr 9, 2008)

As said the exoterra etc bulbs are the same as normal bulbs you buy from a shop just with their name on and about 3x more expensive. I have the problem that even if they arent banned now no one sells 100w bulbs anymore, ive looked in wilkos, tesco, asda and they arent sold anymore meaning i have 3 bulbs left till we have to buy the expensive ones or lola will freeze bless her as a 60w bulb just isnt hot enough. :devil:


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## diamondlil (May 7, 2008)

I've found that the only bulb that gives the right temp range for my leo's viv is the red 'fireglow' bulb. The reptile bulbs just wouldn't go low enough on the dimmer without turning off. So without cheapo red bulbs I'd have to totally change the setup that's suited her for over 3 years!


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

although to be honest it could save some money.

an alternative heating source and a low energy lightbulb for lighting/


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## Scales and Fangs (Mar 22, 2007)

correct me if im wrong but am i write in saying that the high powered bulbs are going first, if so, what about the construction industry that use high power lights to work at night, football/sports stadiums that also use high powered bulbs, street lights etc......

I personaly cant see this being inforced but with the way the press play things up, people will start to panic buy if they mention it could happen just like they do when they get a hint of fuel strikes.

Rob.


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

Please....no.....

Bar the reptile industry etc i HATE energy saving lightbulbs. They take a freaking age to light up properly and i like my room to be properly illuminated. Stop bloody micro managing the public.


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## Slofe (May 27, 2008)

Was gonna do a thread on this myself. It is a bit of a worry, the 100w bulbs that Tesco etc sell are exactly the same as the exo terra bulbs but the Tesco ones are £1 for 2. The energy saving bulbs aren't gonna provide enough heat are they? and if they're banning 100w bulbs then surely this will include the exo terra ones because they're exactly the same as a normal spot bulb. More ill thought out bollocks from the EU.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> what 'better products'? MVB's, yep but you need a viv big enough for it to work without overheating the viv. A standard reptile branded spotlight is no different to any other spot light and not exactly designed for reptiles.


How about a ceramic bulb or a heat mat? Both of which are products that are actually designed to generate heat, unlike light bulbs which are designed to give of light. Using a standard light bulb to provide heat is a very inefficient way of doing things because the heat generated is only a secondary by-product of its main function. A 20 or 40W ceramic bulb would probably generate more heat than a 100W light bulb, would last longer than a standard light bulb, could be used with a wider range of thermostats....


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

i find it funny the goverment are suggesting this only months after the UVB producing low energy bulb scare, where we were told not to be within 30cms of some energy saving bulbs for more than 30 mins or something :lol2:


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

Right, to stop the myths.

At the moment (Jan 2009) the removal from sale of *incandescent* bulbs is voluntary agreement between government and retailers.

In September 2009 an EU wide ban on 100w+ incandescent light bulbs comes into effect. This WILL effect your mass produced 100W+ spot bulbs. The only bulbs that will be exempt are specialist bulbs - scientific research/military/health. There are no planned exceptions for Reptile keepers! (Unless you are a licensed zoo/research facility which will fall under the scientific heading.)

In Spetember 2010 all other *incandescent *bulbs will fall under the EU wide ban.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Caz said:


> Right, to stop the myths.
> 
> At the moment (Jan 2009) the removal from sale of *incandescent* bulbs is voluntary agreement between government and retailers.
> 
> ...


But from experiance the government can and will change deadlines and criteria, so rather than take that as gospel it should be taken as an initial warning and we should all 'watch this space'


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## Hana (Jun 18, 2008)

im confused lol. So whats going to be banned, i Know lightbulbs but which ones and also can you use bulbs say that you get from wilkos in a viv as a source of heat or just for light. Have i cimpletely got the wrong end of the stiick here haha


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> How about a ceramic bulb or a heat mat? Both of which are products that are actually designed to generate heat, unlike light bulbs which are designed to give of light. Using a standard light bulb to provide heat is a very inefficient way of doing things because the heat generated is only a secondary by-product of its main function. A 20 or 40W ceramic bulb would probably generate more heat than a 100W light bulb, would last longer than a standard light bulb, could be used with a wider range of thermostats....


because some people don't just keep snakes, some keep desert species lizards that require a source of light and not just heat.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> because some people don't just keep snakes, some keep desert species lizards that require a source of light and not just heat.


I understand that, but there are still plenty of _specifically made_ lighting and heating products that can be bought that will do the job more efficiently than using normal light bulbs (and will almost certainly not be subject to this proposed ban)....

and surely it makes sense to keep lighting and heating separate anyway, otherwise you've got to either switch heat source at night or have a constantly lit viv.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

yep, i'm going to do what i mentioned a bit earlier in the thread i thinks.
Those tubular heaters are supposed to be cheap to run so one of those and a low energy bulb should give light and heat at a fraction of the running costs and can also be turned down over night if needed.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> yep, i'm going to do what i mentioned a bit earlier in the thread i thinks.
> Those tubular heaters are supposed to be cheap to run so one of those and a low energy bulb should give light and heat at a fraction of the running costs and can also be turned down over night if needed.


Another advantage of keeping them separate is that you don't run into problems with temp control and lighting. After all, how do you connect a light bulb to a stat in order to control the temperature without also providing the reptile with unnatural lighting (i.e the light going on and off constantly)?


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I spoke to my electrical wholesaler today, he said he has sold more standard lightbulbs in 3 days than the last 3 months, HOWEVER, he said it will not be illegal for him to purchase the exact same bulbs and still sell them as a wholesaler, but the prices are expected to quadruple, and demand will be higher than supply. It's hardly a "ban" though.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> Another advantage of keeping them separate is that you don't run into problems with temp control and lighting. After all, how do you connect a light bulb to a stat in order to control the temperature without also providing the reptile with unnatural lighting (i.e the light going on and off constantly)?


 
i do agree with that. When i last had a beardie i had a 100watt bulb in a 5x2x2 and it was constantly dimming.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

Crownan said:


> But from experiance the government can and will change deadlines and criteria, so rather than take that as gospel it should be taken as an initial warning and we should all 'watch this space'


Unfortunately its no longer up to our government its now an EU directive.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Caz said:


> Unfortunately its no longer up to our government its now an EU directive.


Do you know what the full title/number for the directive is? I'd like to actually get hold of it


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## kingsnake (Mar 23, 2007)

I asked the Lighting Association about the normal bulbs and got this reply:

"Light bulbs were never designed or intended to be used as heaters and are therefore very inefficient in that role. A CFL will provide light efficiently and a purpose designed heater will provide heat efficiently. I would be very surprised to find that the combination would consume double the energy when both items are designed for their purpose. 

If indeed this should be the case it is a relatively small increase in energy compared with the millions of homes that will now save up to 80% off their annual lighting bill.

You may like to look at halogen lamps which will remain on the market for at least another 7 years.

In truth the answer to your question is that incandescent bulbs for general household lighting are being banned but there are exceptions for special purpose lamps such as certain medical uses and it may well be that specialist heat lamps may still be made available the purpose you are describing. My suggestion is to consult with DEFRA on this one who can give you an opinion on whether such a use is special purpose- my guess is yes."


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

Crownan said:


> Do you know what the full title/number for the directive is? I'd like to actually get hold of it


Not off the top of my head - DEFRA would know. 



kingsnake said:


> I asked the Lighting Association about the normal bulbs and got this reply:
> 
> "Light bulbs were never designed or intended to be used as heaters and are therefore very inefficient in that role. A CFL will provide light efficiently and a purpose designed heater will provide heat efficiently. I would be very surprised to find that the combination would consume double the energy when both items are designed for their purpose.
> 
> ...


I did ask DEFRA hence my reply in a previous post - pet reptile keeping is not included.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

essexchondro said:


> After all, how do you connect a light bulb to a stat in order to control the temperature without also providing the reptile with unnatural lighting (i.e the light going on and off constantly)?


Dimmer 'stat?

As soon as they start actually producing readily-available low-wattage Ceramics (I've never seen a 25-watt and it's like hen's teeth trying to get 40-watts) then I'm happy to switch to using them on my nocturnals and for heating on my diurnals ... but generally speaking, the low wattages are not as easy to find and I've not seen them in bayonet fittings either.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Official Dateline:

*1*
1 September 2009
Frosted lamps (apart from Energy Class A)
as well as clear incandescent lamps of 80 W or above

*2*
1 September 2010
clear incandescent lamps over 65 W
*3*
1 September 2011
clear incandescent lamps over 45 W
*4*
1 September 2012
clear incandescent lamps over 7 W
*5*
1 September 2013
raising of quality requirements
*6*
1 September 2016
lamps with Energy Class C


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

No problem getting hold of the bulbs we use/need.

Just houselhold ones will not be available.

No need to panic.


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> I understand that, but there are still plenty of _specifically made_ lighting and heating products that can be bought that will do the job more efficiently than using normal light bulbs (and will almost certainly not be subject to this proposed ban)....
> 
> and surely it makes sense to keep lighting and heating separate anyway, otherwise you've got to either switch heat source at night or have a constantly lit viv.


as i said i use various wattage spot bulbs which are the same as the exo terra or similar but are half the price. all my vivs have dimmers for the day and ceramics or heatmats for the night, and they all hav a proper photo period


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## Slofe (May 27, 2008)

Dextersdad said:


> No problem getting hold of the bulbs we use/need.
> 
> Just houselhold ones will not be available.
> 
> No need to panic.


Are you talking about the exo terra ones? dunno about you mate but i'm not too keen on paying £6 for a bulb when I can get two of the exact same thing for 90p.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

Dextersdad said:


> No problem getting hold of the bulbs we use/need.
> 
> Just houselhold ones will not be available.
> 
> No need to panic.


Have you got a secret supply then? :notworthy:


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

Slofe said:


> Are you talking about the exo terra ones? dunno about you mate but i'm not too keen on paying £6 for a bulb when I can get two of the exact same thing for 90p.


 
well said! :no1:


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

Caz said:


> Have you got a secret supply then? :notworthy:


Nope.

The likes of Exo terra and anyone who makes them for anything but households can produce and sell them.

They're not being outlawed and will still be available.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Slofe said:


> Are you talking about the exo terra ones? dunno about you mate but i'm not too keen on paying £6 for a bulb when I can get two of the exact same thing for 90p.





Mr Man said:


> well said! :no1:


Bloody skinflints :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Slofe (May 27, 2008)

Crownan said:


> Bloody skinflints :Na_Na_Na_Na:


Yeah, what of it?


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

Chances are exo terra are going to increase the prices on there already overpriced bulbs. I wonder if it would be cheap and feasible to order light bulbs abroad?


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

Crownan said:


> Bloody skinflints :Na_Na_Na_Na:


 :lol2: i'd rather spend £1 on a bulb and the other £5 on the snakes themselfs (mind u i do hav scotch blood running thru me!)


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## angels1531 (Aug 27, 2008)

Am I also right in thinking that a problem with energy saving bulbs is that they contain a small amount of mercury, thus meaning they have to be disposed of carefully and cannot just be put in the recycling bins. Of course if you happen to break one, they would also be difficult to clean up safely?


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

angels1531 said:


> Am I also right in thinking that a problem with energy saving bulbs is that they contain a small amount of mercury, thus meaning they have to be disposed of carefully and cannot just be put in the recycling bins. Of course if you happen to break one, they would also be difficult to clean up safely?


yes we will all die of mercury poisoning but as long as we hav a smaller carbon foot print the government thinks its all good :roll:


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> Dimmer 'stat?
> 
> As soon as they start actually producing readily-available low-wattage Ceramics (I've never seen a 25-watt and it's like hen's teeth trying to get 40-watts) then I'm happy to switch to using them on my nocturnals and for heating on my diurnals ... but generally speaking, the low wattages are not as easy to find and I've not seen them in bayonet fittings either.


But using a dimmer will still result in varying levels of light intensity given off as the bulb gets dimmed and then brighter and so on. Admittedly it would be a lot better than a bulb flashing on and off but it still seems far more logical to have a light source on a timer (eg 12 hours on and 12 hours off), and then a separate non light-emitting heat source connected to (pretty much any type of) stat.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> as i said i use various wattage spot bulbs which are the same as the exo terra or similar but are half the price. all my vivs have dimmers for the day and ceramics or heatmats for the night, and they all hav a proper photo period


But why not ditch the light bulbs and just have the heat provided by the ceramics and/or heat mats 24/7?

It just seems like you're over-complicating things by relying on a light emitting piece of equipment to supply heat in addition to equipment that is specifically designed to provide heat.


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## Lizardlady (Mar 29, 2007)

Hi

Just thought I would share this article from the SKY website:

12:44pm UK, Wednesday January 07, 2009 
Julia Reid, Sky News reporter 
*Shops are reporting a shortage of traditional light bulbs as consumers stock up before they are removed from the shelves for good.*










Energy saving bulbs could save £7 a year from bills 


The incandescent 100W bulbs will be replaced by greener, low-energy alternatives.
Britain signed up to an EU decision to get rid of the original bulbs to help meet climate change targets.
An energy efficient bulb uses a fifth of the energy of a conventional bulb and can save £7 a year in bills.
John Lewis, Asda and Homebase have completely sold out of 100W bulbs, while Sainsbury's says only "a few" remain in their stores.








Sainsbury's still has 100W bulbs


Lighting chain Ryness has also experienced a run on the bulbs. Website manager Gareth Evans says sales have quadrupled.
"The high street has seen a huge increase in 100W sales," he said
"We've also had a lot of account customers stockpiling candle bulbs for their hotel chandeliers. They need clear light bulbs rather than the opaque energy saving lamps."
But critics of the newer compact fluorescent lamps (CFLs) say they are too expensive, too dim, and pose serious health risks.
Janet Caine has suffered from migraines for more than 30 years. She says that CFLs have dictated the decisions she has made about her life.
"When I was studying I started to get double vision and numbness on one side of my body," she said
"Tests showed that I was flicker sensitive and had to keep away from fluorescent lights completely.
"Energy saving bulbs make the whole room shimmer for me. If you aren't sensitive you can't see it, but they make me feel unwell for hours afterwards.
"Even if I visit friends that have the bulbs I start to feel nauseous and unwell.
"This is eco-fascism. It is a disaster for people with migraines or poor sight.
"I'm about to go and stockpile traditional bulbs. I have to do it. I even travel with traditional bulbs to replace the energy saving lights in hotels."
Health charities want the Government to commission robust research to establish the possible links between CFLs and medical conditions.








Migraine sufferers told 'stock up'


The *Migraine Action Association* has sent a newsletter to members recommending that they buy as many incandescent bulbs as possible.
Director Lee Tomkins said their postbag has been overwhelmed by concerned sufferers.
"One in ten people in the UK have migraines which can last up to three days so this is a real problem," she said
"We just want people to have a choice."
Epilepsy sufferers have also reported that the bulbs trigger fits, and people affected by Seasonal Affective Disorder have complained of worsened symptoms.
Although the price of CFLs is expected to fall, they currently cost around a third more than traditional bulbs.
Energy campaigners say the reduction of carbon dioxide emissions by around 5 million tons a year justifies the pitfalls.
The current ban on selling 100W bulbs is voluntary and ministers will have no power to enforce fines on stockists until 2016.

So we can start to stock up but not too much to worry about until 2016 - another so called scientist will have found results of some 'other survey' by then and changed their minds!!!!


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

I suffer from migraines too, luckily i have an energy saving bulb and I don't think it effects me personally. It's the lack of light that annoys me. A guy in an interview said " oh well people who think they dont make much light etc are thinking of 3 years old the first models". Well sorry mate i bought one last month, when you first turn it on it's like "yes bulb...your at what 50% light emittance so far..I'd like my room bright not like i have a big candle on my cieling". It seems to take it an hour or so to get to full brightness and it's less bright then the usual bulbs.


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## Xx_JoJo_xX (Feb 18, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> But why not ditch the light bulbs and just have the heat provided by the ceramics and/or heat mats 24/7?
> 
> It just seems like you're over-complicating things by relying on a light emitting piece of equipment to supply heat in addition to equipment that is specifically designed to provide heat.


I agree, it does sound like you're over complicating the setup.. Do you have UVB tubes in addition to the standard light bulbs for day time use? As i understand it, if the animals you keep are diurnal then they need a good source of UVB to stimulate the production of vit d3 (used to process calcium). Standard lightbulbs do not emit the correct spectrum of light to do this or create a natural photo-period for a reptile.. It seems unecessary to use the standard bulbs during the day purely for a source of heat when you have ceramics and heatmats for night time use which are much more efficient.. and in terms of energy they're probably more cost effective too...


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## Xx_JoJo_xX (Feb 18, 2008)

joeyboy said:


> I suffer from migraines too, luckily i have an energy saving bulb and I don't think it effects me personally. It's the lack of light that annoys me. A guy in an interview said " oh well people who think they dont make much light etc are thinking of 3 years old the first models". Well sorry mate i bought one last month, when you first turn it on it's like "yes bulb...your at what 50% light emittance so far..I'd like my room bright not like i have a big candle on my cieling". It seems to take it an hour or so to get to full brightness and it's less bright then the usual bulbs.


I've just change my bulbs to energy efficient ones, n I kno what you mean about them taking a long time to get bright.. the one I have in my bedroom takes an age to light up BUT I think its all to do with the type you get coz I have them in the rest of the house and in a lamp in my room and they all emit light instantly... so if you get the good ones you're okay... unfortunately I'm stuck with the slow bulb in my room coz of the ridiculously high ceiling and my lack of step ladders lol


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

I've heard thers going to be a ban on all standard bulbs by 2010 with 150w phased out now and 100w and 60w to follow there's always the high light output halogen spots which are expensive at the mo but I'll be giving them a go.
Sainsurys have started selling the halogen bulbs I got one 28w in a 18inch empty viv to see what temps it puts out so far its 85 in there without a stat I'm sure these bulbs can't be used with stats which would cause probs hence the viv being an empty viv.

The bulb is 28w =40w standard.
many thanks Paula


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## tokay (Mar 13, 2007)

the internet is your friend :2thumb:
if there is a blanket EU ban (cant see that happening myself though) just order them online from a dif country


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> But why not ditch the light bulbs and just have the heat provided by the ceramics and/or heat mats 24/7?
> 
> It just seems like you're over-complicating things by relying on a light emitting piece of equipment to supply heat in addition to equipment that is specifically designed to provide heat.


 
cos thats the way i like my set ups! and its only complicated if u r thick! they are fine the way they are and i'm sure i'm not the only person in the world to do it that way.


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

Xx_JoJo_xX said:


> I agree, it does sound like you're over complicating the setup.. Do you have UVB tubes in addition to the standard light bulbs for day time use? As i understand it, if the animals you keep are diurnal then they need a good source of UVB to stimulate the production of vit d3 (used to process calcium). Standard lightbulbs do not emit the correct spectrum of light to do this or create a natural photo-period for a reptile.. It seems unecessary to use the standard bulbs during the day purely for a source of heat when you have ceramics and heatmats for night time use which are much more efficient.. and in terms of energy they're probably more cost effective too...


And bloody expensive to set up. For a stat + ceramic + holder its like £80.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> cos thats the way i like my set ups! and its only complicated if u r thick! they are fine the way they are and i'm sure i'm not the only person in the world to do it that way.


I didn't say it _was_ complicated; I said you were over-complicating it (i.e making it _more_ complicated/complex than it needs to be). If that's how you like doing things then fair enough - or not as the case may be should the ban come into effect - but there are more efficient ways of getting the desired result that would require less equipment and I would assume less running costs based on the wattage required. 

Each to their own, though....you pay the electric bill, not me! ;o)


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## Slofe (May 27, 2008)

What are halogen bulbs like for basking? if a standard halogen spot bulb is fine for basking then there shouldn't be a problem because I think halogens are more energy efficient and therefore not affected.

Edit: It appears they are fine Lucky Reptile Halogen Sun 100W HS-100 can replace 100w normal bulb with 75w one of these for the same heat output. Halogen bulbs are about £4 for 2 from Tesco, still more pricey than the normal bulbs but still cheaper than "specialist" reptile bulbs. Give it a year or two and they'll come down in price anyway. There we go problem solved, do I win the thread? :2thumb:


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> I didn't say it _was_ complicated; I said you were over-complicating it (i.e making it _more_ complicated/complex than it needs to be). If that's how you like doing things then fair enough - or not as the case may be should the ban come into effect - but there are more efficient ways of getting the desired result that would require less equipment and I would assume less running costs based on the wattage required.
> 
> Each to their own, though.


whats the difference between having a stat on a timer as to a light source? and i find my bulbs are much cheaper to run than ceramics and ceramics can take too much humidity out of the air


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Mr Man said:


> whats the difference between having a stat on a timer as to a light source? and i find my bulbs are much cheaper to run than ceramics and ceramics can take too much humidity out of the air


How do you work out whats cheaper to run? In theory a 100W ceramic on a stat would actually use less energy to heat a viv than 100W heat lamp on a stat as the lamp will be wasting energy as light where as the ceramic doesnt....


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

Crownan said:


> How do you work out whats cheaper to run? In theory a 100W ceramic on a stat would actually use less energy to heat a viv than 100W heat lamp on a stat as the lamp will be wasting energy as light where as the ceramic doesnt....


 
tell than 2 n-power:lol2: our bill went up a hell of alot when we started using ceramics


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> whats the difference between having a stat on a timer as to a light source? and i find my bulbs are much cheaper to run than ceramics and ceramics can take too much humidity out of the air


A light bulb converts nearly all of the eneregy to light, not heat. Heat is only a by-product of its primary function and it's therefore not very efficient at producing heat (hence the high wattage required to get the desired result). 

If you have a light bulb on a stat the light level isn't going to be constant because the stat will be regulating the bulbs output to maintain the temperature. Depending on the type of stat used you'd either have a flashing light bulb, a light bulb switching on and off every few minutes, or a light bulb whose brightness varied as it was dimmed by the stat. None of those scenarios are providing what could be considered a natural light period. Why not just have a light source for providing light (which could be switched on and off via a timer) and a heat source that doesn't give off light which can be regulated by a stat without altering the light levels in the viv? It's so much more logical.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> tell than 2 n-power:lol2: our bill went up a hell of alot when we started using ceramics


Were you using the same wattage ceramics as you would a light bulb? Because the ceramics are so much more efficient you could probably (at least) halve the wattage for a ceramic compared to what you'd need with a light bulb.


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> A light bulb converts nearly all of the eneregy to light, not heat. Heat is only a by-product of its primary function and it's therefore not very efficient at producing heat (hence the high wattage required to get the desired result).
> 
> If you have a light bulb on a stat the light level isn't going to be constant because the stat will be regulating the bulbs output to maintain the temperature. Depending on the type of stat used you'd either have a flashing light bulb, a light bulb switching on and off every few minutes, or a light bulb whose brightness varied as it was dimmed by the stat. None of those scenarios are providing what could be considered a natural light period. Why not just have a light source for providing light (which could be switched on and off via a timer) and a heat source that doesn't give off light which can be regulated by a stat without altering the light levels in the viv? It's so much more logical.


 
i use 60w spot bulbs in my 4x2x2s and the only need to dim back on the hottest of days and the temps are bang on in every viv. the taller vivs i use a 100w and a 40w to get the basking spot to the correct temp and the 100w ceramics will not give me the correct basking temp. so unless i start buying 150w or 200w ceramics then another light source just to do what my set up allready does! whats the point?


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> Were you using the same wattage ceramics as you would a light bulb? Because the ceramics are so much more efficient you could probably (at least) halve the wattage for a ceramic compared to what you'd need with a light bulb.


then y won't a 100w cermic bulb bo the job of 140w or bulb?


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> i use 60w spot bulbs in my 4x2x2s and the only need to dim back on the hottest of days and the temps are bang on in every viv. the taller vivs i use a 100w and a 40w to get the basking spot to the correct temp and the 100w ceramics will not give me the correct basking temp. so unless i start buying 150w or 200w ceramics then another light source just to do what my set up allready does! whats the point?


The point is that you might struggle to carry on doing things the way you are doing them if these bulbs are banned or become much more expensive to buy due to supply and demand.

You could, of course, also have the option of maintaining the basking spot at night if you used ceramics.


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> The point is that you might struggle to carry on doing things the way you are doing them if these bulbs are banned or become much more expensive to buy due to supply and demand.


hence y i said in my first post i will be buying a crate of them!


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

Mr Man said:


> tell than 2 n-power:lol2: our bill went up a hell of alot when we started using ceramics


I agree. Although ceramics don't 'waste' heat as light they are not efficient at directing heat downwards as they don't have a built in reflector like a spot bulb. Even with the correct reflector.

A 100w ceramic will not be able to achieve the same basking spot temperature as a 100w spot bulb.

RE the lucky reptile halogen bulbs - are these dimmable??


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Caz said:


> I agree. Although ceramics don't 'waste' heat as light they are not efficient at directing heat downwards as they don't have a built in reflector like a spot bulb. Even with the correct reflector.
> 
> A 100w ceramic will not be able to achieve the same basking spot temperature as a 100w spot bulb.
> 
> RE the lucky reptile halogen bulbs - are these dimmable??


That may be true if they were both running at 100% which I dont actually believe that it is true as said lots of energy is being wasted as light, but who runs their heat sources at 100% anyway? They're all stated (or should be) and therefor both types will runat a lesser percentage.

Do you have any sources or done any tests to actually verify this or are you just going on your own 'logic'?


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

Caz said:


> I agree. Although ceramics don't 'waste' heat as light they are not efficient at directing heat downwards as they don't have a built in reflector like a spot bulb. Even with the correct reflector.
> 
> A 100w ceramic will not be able to achieve the same basking spot temperature as a 100w spot bulb.
> 
> RE the lucky reptile halogen bulbs - are these dimmable??


thank u!!!!!!!!!

good to see i'm not the only one who thinks this


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> hence y i said in my first post i will be buying a crate of them!


and when the crate runs out?


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## Repta (Jul 29, 2008)

Wattage is wattage. A 100W spot bulb will use the same amount of electricity as an 100W ceramic.

However, whether or not it is an efficient use of the bulb depends entirely on what you are using it for.​


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> That may be true if they were both running at 100% which I dont actually believe that it is true as said lots of energy is being wasted as light, but who runs their heat sources at 100% anyway? They're all stated (or should be) and therefor both types will runat a lesser percentage.
> 
> Do you have any sources or done any tests to actually verify this or are you just going on your own 'logic'?


Doesn't sound like Mr Man's light bulbs are running at much less than 100%;



> i use 60w spot bulbs in my 4x2x2s and the only need to dim back on the hottest of days and the temps are bang on in every viv


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> and when the crate runs out?


import more! or buy the rip off exo terra


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> Wattage is wattage. A 100W spot bulb will use the same amount of electricity as an 100W ceramic.
> 
> However, whether or not it is an efficient use of the bulb depends entirely on what you are using it for.


The crucial point is that a bulb uses most of that wattage to create light, not heat. A ceramic is 100% heat output so to generate the same amount of heat as the bulb you'd get by with a lower wattage.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> import more! or buy the rip off exo terra


So it becomes more expensive as well as less efficient! :lol2:


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> So it becomes more expensive as well as less efficient! :lol2:


 u r boring me now. u stick to your set ups i'll stick 2 mine


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## Repta (Jul 29, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> The crucial point is that a bulb uses most of that wattage to create light, not heat. A ceramic is 100% heat output so to generate the same amount of heat as the bulb you'd get by with a lower wattage.


Exactly!

Useless post by me. I'll bugger off.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> u r boring me now. u stick to your set ups i'll stick 2 mine


Why is it that people always take constructive criticism like its a personal attack? I've already said (several posts ago) that you should stick to whatever method you prefer (the law permitting, of course)..I just though you and others might appreciate alternative methods for the sake of simplicity and efficiency.


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> Why is it that people always take constructive criticism like its a personal attack? I've already said (several posts ago) that you should stick to whatever method you prefer (the law permitting, of course)..I just though you and others might appreciate alternative methods for the sake of simplicity and efficiency.


i don't take it as a personal attack as i know my set ups are 100% spot on. i know what the other methods are but as ive already stated i'm happy with my set ups the way they are and u r trying to ram your ceramics and heat efficiency theorys down my throat. not everyone wants your style of set ups


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

I thought we were discussing energy efficiency and the pro's and cons of different heat sources?


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

Crownan said:


> I thought we were discussing energy efficiency and the pro's and cons of different heat sources?


we were originally discussing whether or not a bulb ban will affect the hobby, not energy efficiency


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> i don't take it as a personal attack as i know my set ups are 100% spot on. i know what the other methods are but as ive already stated i'm happy with my set ups the way they are and u r trying to ram your ceramics and heat efficiency theorys down my throat. not everyone wants your style of set ups


I never said your set-ups weren't providing the correct environment, and I never said you weren't happy with them either. All I've said is that there are simpler and more efficient ways of providing that same environment...and given that this whole thread is about the possibility of an essential ingredient in your method being banned that it might be worth considering those alternatives...

If it makes it easier for you to swollow, don't think of it as me ramming ceramics down your throat; think of it as the authorities ramming them down your throat, because that's effectively what they'd be doing if the bulbs you rely upon become either unobtainable or prohibitively expensive.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Mr Man said:


> we were originally discussing whether or not a bulb ban will affect the hobby, not energy efficiency


Yeah but it took a natural trend towards this, yourself included, no big deal, just no need to get up tight when we are discussing things and putting our thoughts and ideas forward


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## Xx_JoJo_xX (Feb 18, 2008)

Have to say that I agree with essexchondro 100% on everything he's saying and I'm glad someone's saying it, even if it appears to be falling on deaf ears.

As for a ceramic being expensive to setup, its probably not much more than the cost of having a lightbulb on a stat AND a heatmat on a stat for night time heating, but it does a more efficient job at the end of the day and will be better for the animal. Or you can save money with an inferior setup and pay the price in vet bills later down the line.. I kno what I'd choose but each to their own.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

Crownan said:


> That may be true if they were both running at 100% which I dont actually believe that it is true as said lots of energy is being wasted as light, but who runs their heat sources at 100% anyway? They're all stated (or should be) and therefor both types will runat a lesser percentage.
> 
> Do you have any sources or done any tests to actually verify this or are you just going on your own 'logic'?


In theory I agree that ceramics should be more efficient but it's how the heat is directed that lets them down. We all strive for a hot 'spot' and bulbs are more effective due to their reflective properties. 

If I was interested in heating a viv as a whole then given the 2 i'd use a ceramic BUT actually there are much more economical ways of heating a viv as a whole.


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

Xx_JoJo_xX said:


> Have to say that I agree with essexchondro 100% on everything he's saying and I'm glad someone's saying it, even if it appears to be falling on deaf ears.
> 
> As for a ceramic being expensive to setup, its probably not much more than the cost of having a lightbulb on a stat AND a heatmat on a stat for night time heating, but it does a more efficient job at the end of the day and will be better for the animal. Or you can save money with an inferior setup and pay the price in vet bills later down the line.. I kno what I'd choose but each to their own.


 
i'm sorry but i don't see how my set ups are inferior? and don't see how i'm saving money when i use dimmer stats which are more expensive than pulse stats?


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## Slofe (May 27, 2008)

Xx_JoJo_xX said:


> Have to say that I agree with essexchondro 100% on everything he's saying and I'm glad someone's saying it, even if it appears to be falling on deaf ears.
> 
> As for a ceramic being expensive to setup, its probably not much more than the cost of having a lightbulb on a stat AND a heatmat on a stat for night time heating, but it does a more efficient job at the end of the day and will be better for the animal. Or you can save money with an inferior setup and pay the price in vet bills later down the line.. I kno what I'd choose but each to their own.


This surely depends on the animal being kept. I have a yemen chameleon who never goes on the floor, so no need for a heat matt and they absorb heat through their back and not their belly. I don't use a stat as the basking temp never drops below 88f and a ceramic heater is an expense i'm not prepared to fork out for because a standard bulb will do the job of giving him heat and light. No need for heat at night either as Yemens can handle a drop down to 60f at night, probably lower and it is in fact good for them because in the Yemen the temperature can drop close to freezing at night so by providing a drop at night it provides a more natural environment for him.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> This surely depends on the animal being kept. I have a yemen chameleon who never goes on the floor, so no need for a heat matt and they absorb heat through their back and not their belly. I don't use a stat as the basking temp never drops below 88f and a ceramic heater is an expense i'm not prepared to fork out for because a standard bulb will do the job of giving him heat and light. No need for heat at night either as Yemens can handle a drop down to 60f at night, probably lower and it is in fact good for them because in the Yemen the temperature can drop close to freezing at night so by providing a drop at night it provides a more natural environment for him.


You're missing the point. With your Yemen you use (well I hope you're using) a light/heat source specifically designed for chams that has the required UV output...and you're using that equipment in the most efficient way to provide the correct environment for the animal in question...

that is very different to using a non-reptile related product in an inefficient manner (because it is designed to provide light, not heat).

Don't get me wrong, what's important is that the right environment is being provided. And as we've seen, there's clearly more than one way to provide the right environment. But some of those ways are simpler and more efficient than others...and you'd surely assume that the simplest and most efficient methods would be the preferred ones (especially in light of the fact that the other methods might shortly become much less viable).


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

isn't it harder to get a hot spot with a ceramic as with a bulb you have a reflector in the bulb or the lamp and so it's directed like a beam to warm one spot but a ceramic just lets out it's heat to the air around it. So were as with the bulb you might get a hot spot of 105f and a cool end of 75f with a ceramic wouldn't you often get a general viv temp of 95f...and no real hot spot?


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> isn't it harder to get a hot spot with a ceramic as with a bulb you have a reflector in the bulb or the lamp and so it's directed like a beam to warm one spot but a ceramic just lets out it's heat to the air around it. So were as with the bulb you might get a hot spot of 105f and a cool end of 75f with a ceramic wouldn't you often get a general viv temp of 95f...and no real hot spot?


Not really. A ceramic might not be as effective as a spot bulb at directing a "beam" of heat into a specific area, but it wouldn't create a uniform temp throughout the viv either. The idea is that you create a heat gradient in your viv by placing the ceramic bulb down one end of the viv. This creates a hot end with a heat gradient running down to the cool end of the viv. The spot directly below the ceramic bulb would be the hot/basking spot which would be regulated by the stat...

if you're using a spot bulb it may well create a better basking spot by focusing the beam of light onto quite a small area, but where is the uniform heat gradient in the viv? You'd get a nice basking spot but since the heat is focused on a very specific area how effective are they at providing the correct ambients in the viv (like you said, its ceramics that heat the air around them, not spots)? The result would surely be that alongside your spot bulb something else would be needed to boost the general ambients in the viv?

Of course, that's not a problem _per se_, it just means you'd need more equipment and a more complex set-up to achieve the same result.


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## Fraggle (Feb 24, 2008)

i use red bayonet bulbs, supplied by my reptile shop. Even though they are pretty much the same as the ones you get from disco suplliers (except that the paint doesnt flake off all over the place and mysteriously shed until its a claer bulb!) these are still ordinary bulbs at the end of the day. 

I have looked into other bulbs, as with beardies etc you can get the same white ones from high street stores for a fraction of the price, but i have found my rep store is the only place i can find that does bayonet (which is what all of our fittings are) and the only place i can find red bulbs locally. and we spent an entire week searching birmingham for screw in fittings or convertors and not a store in the world had them. 

We do not use branded bulbs because as far as i can see the bulbs i use do just the same job, and branded ones are just making money out of the fact that with their fittings you can only use their bulbs (which when we looked into it with a setup last yr cost £8 each for one type and £12 each for another- no chance!!!!

I use red bulbs on stats for my leos, the light doesnt bother them in the slightest, the heat is bang on, and unlike overpriced ceramics, i can see when they are broke.

so if this ban does happen, i am going to have to seriously rethink my hobby.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> Not really. A ceramic might not be as effective as a spot bulb at directing a "beam" of heat into a specific area, but it wouldn't create a uniform temp throughout the viv either. The idea is that you create a heat gradient in your viv by placing the ceramic bulb down one end of the viv. This creates a hot end with a heat gradient running down to the cool end of the viv. The spot directly below the ceramic bulb would be the hot/basking spot which would be regulated by the stat...
> 
> if you're using a spot bulb it may well create a better basking spot by focusing the beam of light onto quite a small area, but where is the uniform heat gradient in the viv? You'd get a nice basking spot but since the heat is focused on a very specific area how effective are they at providing the correct ambients in the viv (like you said, its ceramics that heat the air around them, not spots)? The result would surely be that alongside your spot bulb something else would be needed to boost the general ambients in the viv?
> 
> Of course, that's not a problem _per se_, it just means you'd need more equipment and a more complex set-up to achieve the same result.


I don't really see that.
Now I agree that a spot light bulb would produce a better/hotter 'hot spot' than the equivalent watt ceramic.
But assuming they are both at one end of an equally ventilated viv there is going to be a natural heat gradient. I would imagine, as the light bulb has focused the heat to the viv floor and that heat rises that the viv with the light bulb would have a more uniform diagonal gradient across the length of the viv, as the heat rises to the other end.

Where as the ceramic, which provides a more 'spread' heat will heat the top area of the viv with the lower floor area being the cooler area.

Hence why in your house underfloor heating is more efficient.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> I don't really see that.
> Now I agree that a spot light bulb would produce a better/hotter 'hot spot' than the equivalent watt ceramic.
> But assuming they are both at one end of an equally ventilated viv there is going to be a natural heat gradient. I would imagine, as the light bulb has focused the heat to the viv floor and that heat rises that the viv with the light bulb would have a more uniform diagonal gradient across the length of the viv, as the heat rises to the other end.


Of course there would be some heat gradient with both set-ups, but the gradient with the ceramic would be more even and uniform. The gradient with the spot bulb would taper off much quicker because the heat is more focused on a specific area. Heat doesn't rise, it radiates out in all directions (obviously less so when it is focused on a specific area), it's hot air that rises.



> Where as the ceramic, which provides a more 'spread' heat will heat the top area of the viv with the lower floor area being the cooler area.
> 
> Hence why in your house underfloor heating is more efficient.


The shape of the ceramic bulbs does maximise the amount of heat directed downwards, but I accept that it's not as focused onto a specific area as that of a spot bulb (which is actually beneficial and the very point I'm making).


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## Slofe (May 27, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> You're missing the point. With your Yemen you use (well I hope you're using) a light/heat source specifically designed for chams that has the required UV output...and you're using that equipment in the most efficient way to provide the correct environment for the animal in question...
> 
> that is very different to using a non-reptile related product in an inefficient manner (because it is designed to provide light, not heat).
> 
> Don't get me wrong, what's important is that the right environment is being provided. And as we've seen, there's clearly more than one way to provide the right environment. But some of those ways are simpler and more efficient than others...and you'd surely assume that the simplest and most efficient methods would be the preferred ones (especially in light of the fact that the other methods might shortly become much less viable).


No i'm not missing the point. I use a reptisun 5.0 to provide his UV output and this is specially designed for lizards. The spot light bulb I use is just a standard spot bulb from Tesco, which are exactly the same as the exo terra bulbs that say they're specially designed for lizards. Every single care sheet and book i've read about chameleon care says that a UV strip light needs to be provided for the UV output and a spot blulb needs to be provided for hot spot to bask under.

A UV light will provide enough UV but not enough light for him. This is the simplest method and therefore the preffered one because if I got a heater, a light and a UV this is more complicated because there's more unneccesary expense and more equipment to clutter the top of the viv.

If I was aiming to heat the entire viv then I would probably go for a ceramic heater, same if I required to heat the viv at night but I don't.


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## JohnC (Feb 12, 2006)

essexchondro, you keep repeating a serious error regarding the output of spotlamps. 
I say that over 90% of the electricity supplied to them produces heat. Where did you get the idea that most of the electrical energy turned into light.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> No i'm not missing the point. I use a reptisun 5.0 to provide his UV output and this is specially designed for lizards. The spot light bulb I use is just a standard spot bulb from Tesco, which are exactly the same as the exo terra bulbs that say they're specially designed for lizards. Every single care sheet and book i've read about chameleon care says that a UV strip light needs to be provided for the UV output and a spot blulb needs to be provided for hot spot to bask under.
> 
> A UV light will provide enough UV but not enough light for him. This is the simplest method and therefore the preffered one because if I got a heater, a light and a UV this is more complicated because there's more unneccesary expense and more equipment to clutter the top of the viv.
> 
> If I was aiming to heat the entire viv then I would probably go for a ceramic heater, same if I required to heat the viv at night but I don't.


You are missing the point because you're using the simplest method to provide the set-up that your animal requires. The other poster wasn't because they were relying on a product designed to produce light to produce heat. You're using a light source because you need the light!


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## JohnC (Feb 12, 2006)

To show how inefficient incandescent spotlamps are at producing light, look at this link, scroll down a fair way to Luminous Efficiency.
This is why the powers that be want to phase them out.
We use them as heaters with an extra benefit of light.
Incandescent light bulb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Slofe (May 27, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> You're using a light source because you need the light!


And the Heat! If I had the spot light and a ceramic heater my chameleon would be slowly roasted


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> To show how inefficient incandescent spotlamps are at producing light, look at this link, scroll down a fair way to Luminous Efficiency.
> This is why the powers that be want to phase them out.
> We use them as heaters with an extra benefit of light.
> Incandescent light bulb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So 90% of the power of one of these bulbs is given off a heat rather than light? I must admit that that is a lot more than I thought, but its still obviously less than the percentage given off by a non-light emitting ceramic (which I guess would be virtually 100%).

As I've said, I'd also question whether the mixing of a light and heat output from the same source is really that much of a benefit in the majority of cases because it means you can't regulate the heat output without varying the light output at the same time. Obviously a dimmer stat is the best option in this regard as it would remove the possibility of a light going on and off all the time but even then you'd need an alternative heat source for the night time period unless you intended on providing light 24/7.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> Of course there would be some heat gradient with both set-ups, but the gradient with the ceramic would be more even and uniform. The gradient with the spot bulb would taper off much quicker because the heat is more focused on a specific area. Heat doesn't rise, it radiates out in all directions (obviously less so when it is focused on a specific area), it's hot air that rises.
> 
> The shape of the ceramic bulbs does maximise the amount of heat directed downwards, but I accept that it's not as focused onto a specific area as that of a spot bulb (which is actually beneficial and the very point I'm making).
> 
> Ceramics come in all shapes and sizes. FYI The 'bulb' shape was originally designed to be used the other way up in a cooking stove. The design was then used in the 80's and transferred for pet use, (and almost banned in the 90's by safety laws..) but the bulb shape retained. It was never intended to help radiate heat downwards.


Light bulbs are more focused, heat the air and the area directly below it, which in turn heats the air and water vapour above it and radiates heat upwards at that end of the viv. This provides a diagonal longitudinal gradient across the viv and a 'hot spot' area.

The ceramic radiates heat in all directions, less so if a reflector is used but does not focus the heat downwards to one area. This heats the air around it creating a hotter area at the top of the viv and a cooler area at the bottom. 19 years of breeding ATB's taught me this.

Now as an aid to providing a steady background temperature to a viv, the ceramic has its use (although there are more energy efficient ways to do this,) but for providing a hot spot or alongitudinal gradient their use is limited.


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## Slofe (May 27, 2008)

Caz said:


> Right, to stop the myths.
> 
> At the moment (Jan 2009) the removal from sale of *incandescent* bulbs is voluntary agreement between government and retailers.
> 
> ...


Caz, where did you find out that there's no exceptions for reptile keeping?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

essexchondro said:


> SObviously a dimmer stat is the best option in this regard as it would remove the possibility of a light going on and off all the time but even then you'd need an alternative heat source for the night time period unless you intended on providing light 24/7.


Many diurnal lizards benefit from a substantial night-time drop in temperatures - often to room temperature. 

I still want to know where I can get very-low-wattage and/or bayonet cap ceramics.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> Light bulbs are more focused, heat the air and the area directly below it, which in turn heats the air and water vapour above it and radiates heat upwards at that end of the viv. This provides a diagonal longitudinal gradient across the viv and a 'hot spot' area.
> 
> The ceramic radiates heat in all directions, less so if a reflector is used but does not focus the heat downwards to one area. This heats the air around it creating a hotter area at the top of the viv and a cooler area at the bottom. 19 years of breeding ATB's taught me this.
> 
> Now as an aid to providing a steady background temperature to a viv, the ceramic has its use (although there are more energy efficient ways to do this,) but for providing a hot spot or alongitudinal gradient their use is limited.


Ceramics radiate long wave infrared heat which mimics the Sun, it doesn't just heat the air directly around it.

In any case, the whole debate is kind of academic given that these bulbs are going to be phased out anyway and keepers will have to re-think their set-ups due to supply, if not for the other reasons discussed. 

all the best

Stuart


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

Slofe said:


> Caz, where did you find out that there's no exceptions for reptile keeping?


DEFRA was asked.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Slofe said:


> And the Heat! If I had the spot light and a ceramic heater my chameleon would be slowly roasted


 
well no because you'd be a good reptile keeper and have them on a stat.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> Many diurnal lizards benefit from a substantial night-time drop in temperatures - often to room temperature.
> 
> I still want to know where I can get very-low-wattage and/or bayonet cap ceramics.


Yes, but at least with a heat source that doesn't give off light you have the choice about heating night or day, from the same source, without interfering with light cycles. If you need to provide heat both night and day then you need two heat sources if the primary sources combines heat and light.

Have you tried Solaris Heat?


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

I'm confused as I spoke to a DEFRA advisor and called Exo Terra (in the first instance) and I was told that I would still be able to buy specialist ones.

Oh well, we'll see in the end one way or another.


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## kelstar (Dec 12, 2008)

i dont know why pet shops sell reptiles to idiots like you reptiles need heat ,light and humidity without this your reptile will be lacking the right things it needs to survive ,thats why you see people with poor conditioned reptiles as they havent got a clue how to look after them properly they just buy them as they look good . 

i use one buld which you have to change every 6 months as the uv goes but this light does provide the heat and light in one. cost £60 a buld but my iggs are worth it.


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

kelstar said:


> i dont know why pet shops sell reptiles to idiots like you reptiles need heat ,light and humidity without this your reptile will be lacking the right things it needs to survive ,thats why you see people with poor conditioned reptiles as they havent got a clue how to look after them properly they just buy them as they look good .
> 
> i use one buld which you have to change every 6 months as the uv goes but this light does provide the heat and light in one. cost £60 a buld but my iggs are worth it.


Who was that aimed at?


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I have now spoken to two wholesalers, one manufacturer of standard bulbs, and one specialist (exo terra), both are telling me that bulbs will still be available, exo terra said that the September 2009 ban did not affect their specialist bulbs.

There is obviously conflicting information on the availability of bulbs but surely exo terra would know, considering the amount of money that is at stake for them, and the fact that they are a mainland EU firm, not a british firm.


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

Athravan said:


> I have now spoken to two wholesalers, one manufacturer of standard bulbs, and one specialist (exo terra), both are telling me that bulbs will still be available, exo terra said that the September 2009 ban did not affect their specialist bulbs.
> 
> There is obviously conflicting information on the availability of bulbs but surely exo terra would know, considering the amount of money that is at stake for them, and the fact that they are a mainland EU firm, not a british firm.


Goes back to what I said above.

I contacted them yesterday and DEFRA. Also just got off of the phone with the environment agency.

No problems.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> I'm confused as I spoke to a DEFRA advisor and called Exo Terra (in the first instance) and I was told that I would still be able to buy specialist ones.
> 
> Oh well, we'll see in the end one way or another.


But the thing is it isn't the specialist ones that most people are using. Most people are going to Tesco's and buying bulbs that are designed to go on their ceiling, not in reptile vivs. 

People are buying these because they're a cheap alternative to the ones made for reptiles. But the point is that these cheap alternatives are going to be phased out which will possibly leave them with a choice between the (more expensive) reptile bulbs or the (more expensive) ceramics, or possibly just the ceramics if what Caz is saying is correct.

So the question really then becomes, "if I'm starting my set-ups again from scratch do I opt for a combined heat and light source, or do I keep heat and light separate?"


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> But the thing is it isn't the specialist ones that most people are using. Most people are going to Tesco's and buying bulbs that are designed to go on their ceiling, not in reptile vivs.
> 
> People are buying these because they're a cheap alternative to the ones made for reptiles. But the point is that these cheap alternatives are going to be phased out which will possibly leave them with a choice between the (more expensive) reptile bulbs or the (more expensive) ceramics, or possibly just the ceramics if what Caz is saying is correct.
> 
> So the question really then becomes, "if I'm starting my set-ups again from scratch do I opt for a combined heat and light source, or do I keep heat and light separate?"


Oh I'm fully aware that a lot of people use the cheaper ones.

It's just this panic need not happen as there's a lot of misinformation out there.

Even if it affected our bulbs, there are many options to give reps the light and Heat they need. 

Just needs a little planning and adjusting.


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## Slofe (May 27, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> But the thing is it isn't the specialist ones that most people are using. Most people are going to Tesco's and buying bulbs that are designed to go on their ceiling, not in reptile vivs.
> 
> People are buying these because they're a cheap alternative to the ones made for reptiles. But the point is that these cheap alternatives are going to be phased out which will possibly leave them with a choice between the (more expensive) reptile bulbs or the (more expensive) ceramics, or possibly just the ceramics if what Caz is saying is correct.
> 
> So the question really then becomes, "if I'm starting my set-ups again from scratch do I opt for a combined heat and light source, or do I keep heat and light separate?"


Gah! :bash: the point is these bulbs AREN'T specially made for reptiles, they are exactly the same as the cheaper alternatives from Tesco they just masquerade as specially made bulbs when really they're not. Yes companies do lie and frequently get away with it to make money.


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## Slofe (May 27, 2008)

kelstar said:


> i dont know why pet shops sell reptiles to idiots like you reptiles need heat ,light and humidity without this your reptile will be lacking the right things it needs to survive ,thats why you see people with poor conditioned reptiles as they havent got a clue how to look after them properly they just buy them as they look good .
> 
> i use one buld which you have to change every 6 months as the uv goes but this light does provide the heat and light in one. cost £60 a buld but my iggs are worth it.


Why don't you grow a pair and quote whoever that was aimed at?.

If aimed at me then you clearly don't have any idea on the amount of research I did before I bought my chameleon and his setup. EVERY single care sheet and book i've read say that all you need is a basking bulb and a UV light, a ceramic heater isn't necessary for chameleons. I must be doing something right because my chameleon has a ferocious appetite, is very active, shows light green colours 98% of the time meaning he's relaxed and content, is growing and shedding well and doesn't wanna leave his cage, meaning his more than happy in there.

If your comment wasn't aimed at me then ignore the above


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

kelstar said:


> i dont know why pet shops sell reptiles to idiots like you reptiles need heat ,light and humidity without this your reptile will be lacking the right things it needs to survive ,thats why you see people with poor conditioned reptiles as they havent got a clue how to look after them properly they just buy them as they look good .
> 
> i use one buld which you have to change every 6 months as the uv goes but this light does provide the heat and light in one. cost £60 a buld but my iggs are worth it.


 
we might be idiots but we can spell bulb


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## Slofe (May 27, 2008)

Anyway this argument is going round and round in a bulbous (badom-tish) circle. Halogen bulbs will remain and apparently these are just as good, if not better for providing a basking spot so really there's no need to worry...:whistling2:


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> Gah! :bash: the point is these bulbs AREN'T specially made for reptiles, they are exactly the same as the cheaper alternatives from Tesco they just masquerade as specially made bulbs when really they're not. Yes companies do lie and frequently get away with it to make money.


But the majority of people are opting for bulbs now because they buy them for a few pence from Tesco's. If these are phased out but the "identical" ones marketed for reptiles are allowed to remain, simply because they're marketed for reptiles, will people do a straight switch to these or go for a different method of heating? The issue becomes about whether or not it's still an acceptable trade off to have heat and light provided from the same source (which means that light levels get altered as part and parcel of temperature regulation) or whether they should separate out their heating and lighting given that the bargain basement product is no longer available.


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## Slofe (May 27, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> But the majority of people are opting for bulbs now because they buy them for a few pence from Tesco's. If these are phased out but the "identical" ones marketed for reptiles are allowed to remain, simply because they're marketed for reptiles, will people do a straight switch to these or go for a different method of heating? The issue becomes about whether or not it's still an acceptable trade off to have heat and light provided from the same source (which means that light levels get altered as part and parcel of temperature regulation) or whether they should separate out their heating and lighting given that the bargain basement product is no longer available.


I dunno why you put identical in quote marks, they are identical. All light bulbs give off some sort of UVA and all this bollocks about tight beam etc is exactly that, bollocks. If you have a separate UV bulb like a reptisun all your UV needs are taken care of because these pump out all manner of UV for your reptile's needs. I definitely would buy a reptile UV light because these really are designed for use with reptiles. If I saw any difference between normal spot light bulbs and ones supposedly designed for reptiles then i'd go for the exo terra ones but there is simply no difference.

As i've already said I will simply go for the halogen spot lights that will still be available in places like Tesco. Sure they'll be a little more pricey but they'll last longer, provide the same heat and light and won't cost as much as the rip off exo terra bulbs, which by the way might be being phased out themselves no one's got a definite answer for that yeah.

If you can use halogen for heating and lighting why bother going to the extra expense of buying a heater, stats for the heater and a ceramic light bulb? seams foolish to me. Especially as that extra cost will be quite significant and will probably hardly save you anything on your electricity bill in fact it will probably add to it.

A prime example of reptile companies ripping you off is when I bought a digital thermometer from lucky reptile. It measures the temperature in 2 different places and the humidity, this cost me £20. I then saw the exact same thing, the only difference is it didn't have a picture of a lizard on the front and cost £15 cheaper....yes £15!!! the lucky reptile one was promptly returned for a full refund.


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

Slofe said:


> Gah! :bash: the point is these bulbs AREN'T specially made for reptiles, they are exactly the same as the cheaper alternatives from Tesco they just masquerade as specially made bulbs when really they're not. Yes companies do lie and frequently get away with it to make money.


There ARE ones made differently, by rep specialists. Therefor there are ones made specially.

Compare the Sun glo, sun glo tight beam, sun glo spot and your normal 100W B&Q bulbs.

We run all 4 (and others) and they all give out different light.

This is a fact.

I'm done with this stupid bloody argument.

Buy what you will, use what you will. As long as YOU are happy and the rep is cared for who gives?

**leaves thread**


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## jaf2212 (May 10, 2008)

From reading this thread it seems there are a lot of incorrect information and agruements going about.

Ceramics will not be as good as the light bulbs, I had a 150w one in my viv and got a gradiant of 90-104f in a 6ft viv, 100w halogen and got a better 75-115f gradiant. So I know which I'll be sticking with, people who only want to spend £1 on a bulb for their reptiles should think about what is more important, saving money or the right care.

I have swapped my bulbs for the halogen as they give of better heat and light and the lucky reptile one is statable. To me spending £5-10 on a bulb to make my reptiles life better is fine with me, I even spent £110 on one light bulb.

They will always make a form off light bulb for the reptiles, might just mean adjusting the viv slightly and spending a little more.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

jaf2212 said:


> people who only want to spend £1 on a bulb for their reptiles should think about what is more important, saving money or the right care.
> 
> .


care to explain that? especially the difference between a reptile branded spot light that costs a fiver or an identical spot light from a hardware store for £1.


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## jaf2212 (May 10, 2008)

Meko said:


> care to explain that? especially the difference between a reptile branded spot light that costs a fiver or an identical spot light from a hardware store for £1.


 
People are complaining the cheaper ones are being ban, if they do get banned, what is more important? Buying a £5 bulb or not giving correct care?


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## exoticsandtropics (Mar 11, 2007)

FOr the record as i can't be bothered to read 11 pages of whatever moaning. 

STATE: IF THERE IS A BAN - THEN BULBS THAT HAVE A SPECIFIC USAGE OTHER THAN LIGHTING CAN STILL BE SOLD

so if you are someone that still just uses the crappy old normal spot bulb you'll be alright. if your clever and use a cermic and a more natural safe setup then you'll be fine as well.
happy?


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## Reptilover (Jan 15, 2007)

jaf2212 said:


> People are complaining the cheaper ones are being ban, if they do get banned, what is more important? Buying a £5 bulb or not giving correct care?


In my experience i've seen that the "reptile" branded light bulbs are just a rip off, does the exact same job as a normal lightbulb, works perfectly fine as a spot bulb. The point is the government says the ban can save us 7 quid a year in electric bills, woooopif******doooo if there making us buy branded ones for £5 .... :bash:

EDIT: Forgot to mention, yeh i aim to provide my pets with the right care, but when the government are doing things like this and not thinking about it is what gets on my nerves..


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## Slofe (May 27, 2008)

exoticsandtropics said:


> so if you are someone that still just uses the crappy old normal spot bulb you'll be alright. if your clever and use a cermic and a more natural safe setup then you'll be fine as well.
> happy?


No i'm not happy because you assume that ceramic setup is more natural, probably cause you have an agenda and sell this equipment :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## rob-stl-07 (Jun 3, 2007)

for the amount of CO2 we'll be saving i think it's a brilliant idea. They'll still be selling reptile bulbs wont they?


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## exoticsandtropics (Mar 11, 2007)

no i just feel it to be better and you'll also noticed if you look we don't sell ceramics!!

i think it's better to have a strip uv through the day and then a ceramic that is on all the time.


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## Mr Man (Jan 8, 2008)

exoticsandtropics said:


> no i just feel it to be better and you'll also noticed if you look we don't sell ceramics!!
> 
> i think it's better to have a strip uv through the day and then a ceramic that is on all the time.


not everything needs uv tho and can cause problems


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## jaf2212 (May 10, 2008)

exoticsandtropics said:


> i think it's better to have a strip uv through the day and then a ceramic that is on all the time.


Thats ok if you are at home at the right times off the day to adjust the stat


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## lmkanetti (Jan 20, 2009)

Incandescent bulbs are not a good way to ensure heat for your reptile anyway. In addition, there are exceptions to this EU directive. They can be found here - Guide to New EU Directive on Lamps - QVS Electrical Supplies | Electrical Wholesale. 

Also, while viewing the explaination on the above page I also noticed that this company does still have 100w incadescent lamps in stock. It makes a point of it on it's homepage. I reckon a lot of online retailers still have um. 

Anyway, the point is that there are better options for providing the appropriate heat. I would look into those mentioned in this thread.


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## MissG (Aug 1, 2007)

Does anyone know anything new about this? Isn't the ban due to start in September?

Oops just noticed the other thread.


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## JohnC (Feb 12, 2006)

There are no regulations or timetable yet about spot-lamps but there will be later.


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Sorry I havent read through the whole thread. My opinion is this; Its a good thing and it should not effect the hobby. Use more efficient heat sources!! Light bulbs are rubbish and using them as a heat source is usually just cutting corners. Ceramics, reptile radiators, heat mats, other heat plates etc etc. What the problem? BRING ON THE BAN!!! Its about time the government implemented something useful!!


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

Gaboon said:


> Sorry I havent read through the whole thread. My opinion is this; Its a good thing and it should not effect the hobby. Use more efficient heat sources!! Light bulbs are rubbish and using them as a heat source is usually just cutting corners. Ceramics, reptile radiators, heat mats, other heat plates etc etc. What the problem? BRING ON THE BAN!!! Its about time the government implemented something useful!!


too true, darn c02 economy melarky.


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## Nodders (May 11, 2009)

Why bring up an old thread .

There was one opened today , and one last week , both threads offer views and have details of the directives . Exactly what is happening and with what bulbs .


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

Gaboon said:


> Sorry I havent read through the whole thread. My opinion is this; Its a good thing and it should not effect the hobby. Use more efficient heat sources!! Light bulbs are rubbish and using them as a heat source is usually just cutting corners. Ceramics, reptile radiators, heat mats, other heat plates etc etc. What the problem? BRING ON THE BAN!!! Its about time the government implemented something useful!!


but surely for basking lizards all your alternatives are not suitable, or in the case of ceramics you can use them, but then really you still need another light emitting bulb.


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## MissG (Aug 1, 2007)

Nodders said:


> Why bring up an old thread .
> 
> There was one opened today , and one last week , both threads offer views and have details of the directives . Exactly what is happening and with what bulbs .


Crikey. I did apologise. I did a search and this was the only thread that came up.


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