# Leopard Geckos on Vinyl ?



## DannyRey96 (Jun 26, 2015)

Hi guys. Just wondering if vinyl tiles would be ok to use for an enclosure. As long as I leave on the radiator for a day ? Also. Can heat penetrate through good enough ? 

Thanks!


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

what do you mean by radiator? room radiator? are you in the UK? if so...don't put your radiator on in this weather lol to much heat will kill a reptile far faster than too little heat


yes you can use vinyl tiles, but, leopard geckos rely on their claws, and I don't believe that they enjoy smooth surfaces...so if its a very temporary situation, then its not a major issue, but I don't personally believe it is good for them to be on smooth surfaces all the time


I often use (naturally textured) stone and ceramic tiles along with heat mats (properly controlled with a thermostat), it works very well, infact with dark stone tiles, it works even better than a standard heat mat setup, because the stone stores heat and releases it, providing a better gradient (2-3degrees more air heat)

that said, my current leo has a tiny 28W halogen lamp for heat, and its working great, low power but a good gradient, along with her UVB lamp - for substrate she has mostly gravel, a little bit of sand, and lots of logs, stones and other things


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

This is a huge potential danger due to the release of VOC when heated.

anyway why use tiles? Bio-active systems are vastly better for the animal in terms of nutritional provision and enrichment and look better to the keeper

if you must have a sterile enclosure then use natural slate tiles, not petro chemicals

john


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

Arcadiajohn said:


> This is a huge potential danger due to the release of VOC when heated.
> 
> anyway why use tiles? Bio-active systems are vastly better for the animal in terms of nutritional provision and enrichment and look better to the keeper
> 
> ...


What inverts would you use in a leopard gecko natural setup?


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

As a clean up crew? 

If so I'd still use springtails and tropical wood lice in a 60% organic soil 40% fine sand mix, in fact I do exactly this for my eyed lizards and it is a very potent system indeed  I have a 4x2x2 to which I added 3 tubs to start then a tub a week for 2 weeks and now a tub a month.

Bio-active herps are looking into hardier inverts for more arid conditions, so things are improving all the time  

John 



creg said:


> What inverts would you use in a leopard gecko natural setup?


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

I use dark coloured, textured vinyl tiles for my African Fat Tail and have done for going on 5 years now. 
As you have said I left the tiles on a radiator (or a hot pavement in this weather could also work) for a couple of days so any harmful gasses that may have been produced, did not end up in my gecko's vivarium.


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

Arcadiajohn said:


> As a clean up crew?
> 
> If so I'd still use springtails and tropical wood lice in a 60% organic soil 40% fine sand mix, in fact I do exactly this for my eyed lizards and it is a very potent system indeed  I have a 4x2x2 to which I added 3 tubs to start then a tub a week for 2 weeks and now a tub a month.
> 
> ...


How often do you spray the substrate and do you find the humidity ever gets too high?

Sorry for the all the questions i would really like to do this kind of setup but didnt think it possible. I recently added some tropical woodlice and springtails to my Strophurus vivarium as an experiment really, it is part soil and part sand but not mixed and i spray once a night.


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## Jamie XVX (Nov 24, 2014)

Ophexis said:


> I use dark coloured, textured vinyl tiles for my African Fat Tail and have done for going on 5 years now.
> As you have said I left the tiles on a radiator (or a hot pavement in this weather could also work) for a couple of days so any harmful gasses that may have been produced, did not end up in my gecko's vivarium.


Heating plastic will always result in harmful gasses. The gasses being released are parts of the plastic evaporating. It isn't a coating that can be burnt off.

With an animal that should live for 15 years, keeping them on tiles for five years doesn't mean much. Chronic exposure to vinyl chloride gas can cause liver issues and cancer, both of which can be very slow to become obvious in reptiles. You may well see no symptoms whatsoever before death. Once you have kept your fat tail for a full, healthy lifespan on these tiles and had a necropsy showing no signs whatsoever of carcinomas or liver damage, then you can be sure the tiles are safe.

Vinyl generally softens at around 82 degree farenheit. If you are going to be heating any part of your viv higher than this, vinyl is not a safe material to use in the vivarium. I can't imagine many reptiles would thrive with a hot end lower than 80 degrees, but I could be wrong.

The recent prevalence of plastic use in reptile keeping is pretty disturbing.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

I drip water the plants each day and bring the humidity up via twice daily spraying to about 60% which isn't high and certainly fine for Leo's.

Yes I also agree I full with. JamieXVX vinyl is made from oils and resins, VOCs can't be burned off over time, it will continue to leech poisons inc cyanide for the duration of its life, the same can be said for plastic plants and ornaments etc.

John







creg said:


> How often do you spray the substrate and do you find the humidity ever gets too high?
> 
> Sorry for the all the questions i would really like to do this kind of setup but didnt think it possible. I recently added some tropical woodlice and springtails to my Strophurus vivarium as an experiment really, it is part soil and part sand but not mixed and i spray once a night.


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

Arcadiajohn said:


> I drip water the plants each day and bring the humidity up via twice daily spraying to about 60% which isn't high and certainly fine for Leo's.
> 
> Yes I also agree I full with. JamieXVX vinyl is made from oils and resins, VOCs can't be burned off over time, it will continue to leech poisons inc cyanide for the duration of its life, the same can be said for plastic plants and ornaments etc.
> 
> John


Thanks for the advice John i'm definitely going to try this now


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Going on from this. Most people keep their Leopard Geckos in melamine covered board. Does this have any damaging effects when it gets hot ?


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

*shrug* Agree to disagree. My gecko is perfectly healthy as is yours, I'm sure. 
Not here for a debate, just stating that it is what I do.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

In all honesty, I don't know and I don't seem to be able to find out what the toxin release temp is if any. 

I still use these wooden vivs myself as what else is there really to use?

but I guess time will tell,

I really do worry about plastics, resins and vinyl's though, heating up RUBs in my mind is just too risky as one example.

John





colinm said:


> Going on from this. Most people keep their Leopard Geckos in melamine covered board. Does this have any damaging effects when it gets hot ?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

True. I use glass mainly but I am lucky enough to have a reptile room where I can control the ambient temperature very well.


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## Jamie XVX (Nov 24, 2014)

You've stated an opinion. I've stated some scientific facts.

You can disagree if you want. Are you 100% sure your gecko is healthy and not suffering from a non-symptomatic chronic illness? Has a vet specifically checked your gecko out for liver or kidney problems and internal carcinomas? If so, fair play. If not, you're simply assuming your pet is healthy.

Melamine is very tricky to find information about. With a solvent, it will begin to break down at around 80 degrees celcius, which is far hotter than a vivarium gets and most people don't splash formalin around inside their vivs. That said, this doesn't mean it doesn't emit fumes at a much lower temperature. It's certainly safer than vinyl, although chronic exposure does lead to the same health complications. Personally, I feel like Melamine coated boards are just as safe as any other water treatment. The nature of vivarium building is that you will have to apply chemicals to your tank in order to prevent rot, but you don't then have to fill the tank with plastics.

If you really want plastic tiles in a vivarium, then PTFE is a pretty affordable high-temperature plastic (it has surgical applications and can be auto-claved, so it can withstand very high temperatures) and sheets of this could be applied to the inside of a tank fairly safely from a heat perspective. You can get metre x metre sheets of PTFE for around £40, which could easily be made into tiles. I have no idea about it's suitability beyond it's heat resistance though. It is relatively soft compared to Vespel and might not stand up to claws to well. If ingestion occured I would assume the results would not be good. You would want to do a lot more research than I have on this product. I have worn PTFE plugs in my ears before and after a while, they become uncomfortable. It is biologically inert so I'm not sure why, but I noticed an amount of redness and discomfort. Slate would certainly be a cheaper and easier alternative though. Seems like a winner to me!


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## Jamie XVX (Nov 24, 2014)

colinm said:


> True. I use glass mainly but I am lucky enough to have a reptile room where I can control the ambient temperature very well.


I am actually serious considering moving across to glass. I know people say it has poor insulation and won't hold humidity, but actually glass is a brilliant insulator and hold humidity brilliant - which is why we pour out a nice glass of water rather than a wood of water!

Most commercially available glass tanks are pretty bad for insulation and humidity retetion though, but screen lids are the main problem, not the material used in the build. They're obviously difficult to attach bulbs and whatnot to as well. It certainly provides a lot of challenges, and costs and weighs more than wood, but I think glass might become more and more common in vivarium building, especially in high value collections, and especially with small to medium sized reptiles. It'd take someone much better at engineering than me to come up with a glass monitor cage though!


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

glass isn't a good insulator at all, but that's not to say it cant be used successfully with a little thought; my Leo is in a glass tank, with a bioactive substrate, lots of it, which helps to absorb heat and release it more slowly, so the temps remain much more stable than just having an inch or so of substrate - as far as humidity goes, glass is a great material, the problems is usually the lid/doors rather than the glass itself

its much easier to maintain a bioactive substrate long term in non-wood enclosures, and if you are careful about the design, there is no reason why you cant use glass or plastic, as long as you are careful, and know your materials well enough to use them safely/effectively - plastics are not necessarily dangerous, if they are used with care


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

My glass vivs are all small. 90 x 45 x 45cm at the most. I like them because they are easy to clean and you have good visability. The disadvantages are that they are heavy and fragile. Insulation isnt a problem as they are in a reptile room where I heat the background.

I have built some outdoor enclosures that are quite easy to build , I will post some photos up. They are like big aquariums to build, but again fragile.

Back on the original subject I keep mainly amphibians . When I breed them I keep the tadpoles in plastic RUBS and the like. I have found that sometimes the tadpoles in particular ones die off. I have no proof but I have put it down to chemicals leaching out of the plastic.


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## DannyRey96 (Jun 26, 2015)

Hmmm, very mixed views. I like the idea of actual ceramic tiles but how thick can you have them seen as heat still needs to penetrate through? Also the reading I want to have tiles is so I can chuck some crickets in enclosure. Leave for 15-20 min so the gecko can hunt naturally rather than getting fed with tongs. Obviously after 20 min or so I will take out any remaining crickets so they don't hurt the gecko... I find when using carpet the crickets can hide under and with sand can cause impaction so not worth the risk...


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## DannyRey96 (Jun 26, 2015)

Hmmm, very mixed views. I like the idea of actual ceramic tiles but how thick can you have them seen as heat still needs to penetrate through? Also the reason I want to have tiles is so I can chuck some crickets in enclosure. Leave for 15-20 min so the gecko can hunt naturally rather than getting fed with tongs. Obviously after 20 min or so I will take out any remaining crickets so they don't hurt the gecko... I find when using carpet the crickets can hide under and with sand can cause impaction so not worth the risk...


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## Jamie XVX (Nov 24, 2014)

Sand only really causes impaction if you use calci-sand or your other husbandry is wrong. Playsand doesn't clump, so can be passed nice and easily as long as your viv is warm enough for the reptilian metabolism to function properly.

I'm not how having tiles would help with feeding crickets. A couple of bits of advice I would give though:

If you're worried about using playsand as a substrate, mix in some soil or coir and the substrate will be a lot less "loose" and much harder for your gecko to ingest.

Potentially controversial, but I leave my crickets in the tank with my ackie. I like him to be able to choose when he eats. Never had any bites or problems. If you're doing this ensure you add plenty of easily accessible food for the crickets that your reptile won't eat - I normally throw in a few bits of lettuce, because Yoda is very much a carnivore - if it's not running around he doesn't care. If the crickets have an easy meal, they are much less likely to nip at your animal., unless your animal is in poor health and becomes an easy target. That said, monitors are a bit hardier and scarier than leopard geckos, so I wouldn't want to say this is definitely a good idea!


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