# Should I euthanizie my Tarantula



## sevanz (Jan 4, 2012)

Hi Guys/Gals,

I could really do with some advice, my mature male went through a post ultimate molt and got partially stuck. From what I can see he still has both fangs but lost 2 legs and his 2 pedipalps. His remaining two back legs seem non-functional and so he cannot lift his cephalothorax off the ground immobilizing him. 

1. Would it be humane to euthanize him? if so how?

2. If not what should I do about the 2 back legs which are non-functional?

Thank you for your time and thoughts, I have attached an image below.


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

sevanz said:


> Hi Guys/Gals,
> 
> I could really do with some advice, my mature male went through a post ultimate molt and got partially stuck. From what I can see he still has both fangs but lost 2 legs and his 2 pedipalps. His remaining two back legs seem non-functional and so he cannot lift his cephalothorax off the ground immobilizing him.
> 
> ...


I would for the fact he'll have to drag himself around everywhere not giving him any quality of life. Poor little man. Wrap him in tissue. Place him on the floor and outside and then put your foot over him and PRESS down quickly and firmly. Do not stamp. You could skim him. He deserves to go out instantly.


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

I kept one of mine alive with three legs.... He continued to eat and moulted. Obviously, yours won't be able to moult out of this. Tricky decision, and not something I could personally bring myself to do, but many others are able and do so....


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

forever_20one said:


> I kept one of mine alive with three legs....


But is that for the spiders benefit or yours?


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Basin79 said:


> I would for the fact he'll have to drag himself around everywhere not giving him any quality of life. Poor little man. Wrap him in tissue. Place him on the floor and outside and then put your foot over him and PRESS down quickly and firmly. Do not stamp. You could skim him. He deserves to go out instantly.



A couple of missing legs is not going to be a huge issue. I'd let nature take its course.

Where is this "misery" crap coming from? It's a tarantula, next you'll be telling me they can feel depressed or angry. I'm all for respect and compassion for arachnids but I'm getting sick of seeing forum posts where the instant something goes wrong the advice is to kill the animal. 

It find it equally baffling that people talk about quality of life one instant, then the next are discussing how to fit up to 500 jars into a room to fill them with species from every continent that they can spend 1/500th of each day caring for.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Basin79 said:


> But is that for the spiders benefit or yours?


Is euthanising the spider for your benefit or theirs? People keep saying its to put it out of its misery, but seeing as how that is debatable in the first place to me it sounds more like its to put the keeper out his possible guilt.


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

It's missing 4 legs, or may as well be (2 missing and 2 knackered) and 2 pelps. How is that good for the spider. And don't lump me in with every other poster. My advice was for the sake of the spider. My feelings are second most when an animal is at stake. The tarantula will massively struggle and seeing as this isn't a sling that will moult quickly and often and be able to regenerate the legs quickly I think it's in the spiders best interest to be killed. Best not put misery or you'll be back posting pissy little posts.


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

Personally, I probably would euthenaise. I'm not saying that it would be the right thing to do, but it's what I would feel more comfortable doing. 

I'm sure a lot of people would try their best to keep him alive, & a lot of people would go with the notion of allowing nature to take it's course - & neither of these are 'wrong'. 

For me though, it'd probably have to be euthenasia. I wouldn't feel comfortable keeping a mature male who was completely immobilised - I can't help but feel the tarantula could be extremely stressed, as the one thing he wants to do is breed, yet he can't even walk.


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

Just seen that you created a new thread - which shows you're obviously struggling with this decision. 

In that case, I know it's not what you want to hear; but it really is something only you can decide to be honest. 

You can see just from the replies that every keeper has differing opinions, & ultimately it's your spider at the end of the day, so it's only really you who can decide on the best course of action which you're most comfortable with.


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

matty said:


> Just seen that you created a new thread - which shows you're obviously struggling with this decision.
> 
> In that case, I know it's not what you want to hear; but it really is something only you can decide to be honest.
> 
> You can see just from the replies that every keeper has differing opinions, & ultimately it's your spider at the end of the day, so it's only really you who can decide on the best course of action which you're most comfortable with.


I disagree with the last part. As the owner of pets I feel it's our duty to do what's right by the animal first and foremost, not what is more comfortable for us. And that's irrelevant of this particular thread. That's just the way I think it should be.


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

Basin79 said:


> I disagree with the last part. As the owner of pets I feel it's our duty to do what's right by the animal first and foremost, not what is more comfortable for us.



I appreciate what you're saying. But I think with animals such as inverts who can't really 'show' us what it is that's right for them (ie: no evidence for them feeling pain etc), it does make that decision a bit harder.


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

matty said:


> I appreciate what you're saying. But I think with animals such as inverts who can't really 'show' us what it is that's right for them (ie: no evidence for them feeling pain etc), it does make that decision a bit harder.


I appreciate that. They're tough as hell and can happily get along with damage that would kill a mammal say. But bringing this thread back to the forefront with 4 legs from the back missing and not functioning of a MM I don't think this particular case is that hard to fathom out. We're definitely on the same page anyway.


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## sevanz (Jan 4, 2012)

Thanks for the replies,

I am leaning towards euthanizing it. Mainly because like you say it is a mature male (of 3 years) who will not be able to regenerate itself from future molts. Has a mature male ever successfully molted twice? 

I don't know if I can stomach standing on it. Is there any other humane way?


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

sevanz said:


> Thanks for the replies,
> 
> I am leaning towards euthanizing it. Mainly because like you say it is a mature male (of 3 years) who will not be able to regenerate itself from future molts. Has a mature male ever successfully molted twice?
> 
> I don't know if I can stomach standing on it. Is there any other humane way?



A lot of people will say to freeze him. I absolutely disgaree with this personally - I don't think it would be humane at all. 

Can't comment on a MM moulting twice - I've never experienced this myself, & never known anybody who has.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Basin79 said:


> I think it's in the spiders best interest to be killed. Best not put misery or you'll be back posting pissy little posts.


You can call it what you like, all I see is someone anthropomorphising and trying to use that as justification for their actions. This is all I am pointing out. 

If there is mixed evidence they can even feel pain, then saying that they are suffering becomes a little tricky to substantiate. Is pacing a sign of distress or just an animal with only so much behavioural flexibility doing what needs to do? 

It won't live for long as an ultimate male anyway, I just don't see how smashing it with a brick is going to be in the animal's best interest.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

matty said:


> A lot of people will say to freeze him. I absolutely disgaree with this personally - I don't think it would be humane at all.


Why?

I've tried various methods to euthanise arthropods, they all look unpleasant to be honest. Well, perhaps less so using gas. Diethyl ether works quite quickly. I think chloroform would be quick as well. Dropping into ethanol is slow unless it is heated. Freezing seems "docile" if not humane.


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

GRB said:


> You can call it what you like, all I see is someone anthropomorphising and trying to use that as justification for their actions. This is all I am pointing out.
> 
> If there is mixed evidence they can even feel pain, then saying that they are suffering becomes a little tricky to substantiate. Is pacing a sign of distress or just an animal with only so much behavioural flexibility doing what needs to do?
> 
> It won't live for long as an ultimate male anyway, I just don't see how smashing it with a brick is going to be in the animal's best interest.


The T is screwed let's be honest. It'll NEVER get better. And I didn't say smash it with a brick. I said stand on it. Instant death.


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

GRB said:


> Why?
> 
> I've tried various methods to euthanise arthropods, they all look unpleasant to be honest. Well, perhaps less so using gas. Diethyl ether works quite quickly. I think chloroform would be quick as well. Dropping into ethanol is slow unless it is heated. Freezing seems "docile" if not humane.



It just doesn't sit well with me personally. I'm not knocking anyone who does it, just for me I could never do it. 

My way of thinking, is that a cold blooded species who goes out of it's way to thermoregulate instinctively knows what temperature it needs to be, so in freezing temperatures, I just feel like the spider would realise that it's too cold to survive & could potentially try to get away from the cold - which it obviously can't do. I just don't personally feel it would be very humane. 

Just my opinion, I'm by no means a scientist, & perfectly happy to stand corrected if I'm wrong.


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

matty said:


> It just doesn't sit well with me personally. I'm not knocking anyone who does it, just for me I could never do it.
> 
> My way of thinking, is that a cold blooded species who goes out of it's way to thermoregulate instinctively knows what temperature it needs to be, so in freezing temperatures, I just feel like the spider would realise that it's too cold to survive & could potentially try to get away from the cold - which it obviously can't do. I just don't personally feel it would be very humane.
> 
> Just my opinion, I'm by no means a scientist, & perfectly happy to stand corrected if I'm wrong.


Whether the spider can feel it or not (I'd like to think it'd certainly try and move if it was able due to the bitter cold) it's drawn out. Wrapping one in tissue and standing on it is instant death for the spider. Granted it's not nice to do but ultimately in my opinion it's the quickest death so that has got to be a good thing for the T.


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

Basin79 said:


> Whether the spider can feel it or not (I'd like to think it'd certainly try and move if it was able due to the bitter cold) it's drawn out. Wrapping one in tissue and standing on it is instant death for the spider. Granted it's not nice to do but ultimately in my opinion it's the quickest death so that has got to be a good thing for the T.



I'm the same. I've never actually had to euthenaise any spider, but if I had to I think I'd go with something like this for an instant death. Grim, & fairly gruesome - but at least it'd be instant.


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

matty said:


> I'm the same. I've never actually had to euthenaise any spider, but if I had to I think I'd go with something like this for an instant death. Grim, & fairly gruesome - but at least it'd be instant.


Yep. It's instant. And as I say not at all nice to have to do to a pet you love. But their needs come first and deserve a fast, painless, stress free death.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

matty said:


> It just doesn't sit well with me personally. I'm not knocking anyone who does it, just for me I could never do it.
> 
> My way of thinking, is that a cold blooded species who goes out of it's way to thermoregulate instinctively knows what temperature it needs to be, so in freezing temperatures, I just feel like the spider would realise that it's too cold to survive & could potentially try to get away from the cold - which it obviously can't do. I just don't personally feel it would be very humane.


I've frozen arachnids before, to be honest it seems docile enough. I know earlier I said Wilks was assuming it, which is true, but I do tend to think it is as humane as you can do without specialist chemicals. 

They tend to sit still, relax, then die. <<5 minutes. They are usually frozen solid in a few minutes anyway. 

Most arthropods tend to slow down and enter a state of torpor in cold conditions.


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

GRB said:


> I've frozen arachnids before, to be honest it seems docile enough. I know earlier I said Wilks was assuming it, which is true, but I do tend to think it is as humane as you can do without specialist chemicals.
> 
> They tend to sit still, relax, then die. <<5 minutes. They are usually frozen solid in a few minutes anyway.
> 
> Most arthropods tend to slow down and enter a state of torpor in cold conditions.



I appreciate what you're saying, but I still couldn't do it myself. I think just because they haven't got the energy to move around due to the cold, I still can't help but think that they'd try to escape the cold if they had the energy. 

I agree it's widely used by people in the hobby as a 'humane' method - I'd just much rather something I know for 100% fact is going to be instant.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

It's not energy per se. I say lethargic in that they slow down in their movement. It's hard to explain. Basically, inverts =/= vertebrates in how they respond. 

It's not like they scramble in agony for 2 minutes then solidify. Its either you freeze them or you brick/foot them. 

Or let nature do it's thing. I wish more folk would do the latter, it's important to see natural death of tarantulas, and it'd stop a lot of the crap spouted about DKS. Too many people haven't even seen a tarantula die yet speak with absolute authority on when an animal is "behaving oddly" at an old age etc. A lot of what I see described is just "normal" death. And to be honest, natural death looks fairly peaceful to me compared to blunt force trauma. Best hope you obliterate all of the ganglia too, they can persist in a state of activity when removed for considerable time. Not too much of a stretch to think they might be still active in a smooshed tarantula.

As for killing generally, well, it gets easier the more you have to do it. That's why I tend to suggest not doing it when you can avoid it. Death is very final.


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## lee middleton (Nov 25, 2011)

do what you feel is right as the keeper pal. 

youl get people on here saying kill it , saying its got no quality of life and its in pain and so on.

on the other hand youl have people come on here with there thesauruses and half baked ideas on them having no concept of life as we know it. and how they might not feel pain or discomfort.

others will say let nature take its course, if you want nature to take its course, remove them from their plastic boxes and send em back off to country of origin. 

its rare to get a reply on this topic with an actual factual answer.

I don't have a problem with killing a spider I keep in captivity if I feel its best thing to do. il never know for sure if its right decision but that's your choice as its keeper.

ignor the knobs on here that slam you for making a suggestion, chances are they know next to nowt anyway.


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## Sylvi (Dec 30, 2008)

In the wild something would have eaten him by now. 
I co-inhabited my mm P striata with my af from when I mated them. They lived together quite happily in a large tank until he started to fail due to age - lost his hair and his ability to hang on to the cork bark and tank sides. I was just wondering what to do with him when the female nipped out and sorted the dilemma for me.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

lee middleton said:


> on the other hand youl have people come on here with there thesauruses and half baked ideas on them having no concept of life as we know it. and how they might not feel pain or discomfort.
> 
> others will say let nature take its course, if you want nature to take its course, *remove them from their plastic boxes and send em back off to country of origin.
> *
> ...


Yes, so when you do get someone who does know what they are on about you totally ignore it however. 

Tell you what, you prove they feel pain and explain how they have concept of self and such. Maybe give an overview of the experiments and rationale behind it. You obviously know more than me on the issue to be arguing it and calling the ideas half baked, so I'm genuinely interested. Maybe you can educate everyone else as well. 

As for the spurious extrapolation, why end there? Captivity is stressful at times, so might as well just kill everything to prevent suffering. If you don't replicate the climate and light conditions exactly you are forcing the animal to tolerate the new conditions = environmental stress. Guess you should probably euthanise it if you care so much. Or just stop taking silly extremes as a form of argument.


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## lee middleton (Nov 25, 2011)

GRB said:


> Yes, so when you do get someone who does know what they are on about you totally ignore it however.
> 
> Tell you what, you prove they feel pain and explain how they have concept of self and such. Maybe give an overview of the experiments and rationale behind it. You obviously know more than me on the issue to be arguing it and calling the ideas half baked, so I'm genuinely interested. Maybe you can educate everyone else as well.
> 
> As for the spurious extrapolation, why end there? Captivity is stressful at times, so might as well just kill everything to prevent suffering. If you don't replicate the climate and light conditions exactly you are forcing the animal to tolerate the new conditions = environmental stress. Guess you should probably euthanise it if you care so much. Or just stop taking silly extremes as a form of argument.



I never claimed to be such an expert. I simply pointing out that its their decision as to what to do with the spider and don't be drawn into nonsense posts that have no factual background. id just like to see a little fact behind advice rather than, like I said, half baked ideas and big words.

if theres no solid advice for this guy then anyones best reply can only be - 

'no idea mate and anyone whos trys to tell you otherwise is either full of :censor: or has special telepathic invert senses as spiders with this specific condition are rarely studied. this is sumat youll have to figure out on your own buddy' 

GRB - is your spidey sense tingling? 

I rarely post on here, not really interested in that internet arguing stuff, I do find it funny to see people bite though.


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

As a simple reply, there are more facts to suggest an inverts nervous system is far less evolved and completely different to a mammals. It is widely accepted that due to the set up of their nervous systems and ganglion, they're not able to feel pain or discomfort.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

lee middleton said:


> I never claimed to be such an expert. I simply pointing out that its their decision as to what to do with the spider and don't be drawn into nonsense posts that have no factual background. id just like to see a little fact behind advice rather than, like I said, half baked ideas and big words.


You did as soon as you stated there's no evidence and my posts were half baked. Do you think I use these 'big words' without knowing what they mean? 

It's pretty clear you've never read anything on the subject, so maybe you need to stop defining what is and isn't possible in terms of advice - you don't know, and you don't the limits of what is known. The best you seem to be able to do is re-hash what I've already told you. 

That doesn't mean no one else knows any better than you, it means you can't be arsed doing some reading and think you know better by default. 




> if theres no solid advice for this guy then anyones best reply can only be -
> 
> 'no idea mate and anyone whos trys to tell you otherwise is either full of :censor: or has special telepathic invert senses as spiders with this specific condition are rarely studied. this is sumat youll have to figure out on your own buddy'
> 
> GRB - is your spidey sense tingling?


Yes it is. 



> I rarely post on here,


Good, let's keep it that way.


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## lee middleton (Nov 25, 2011)

GRB said:


> You did as soon as you stated there's no evidence and my posts were half baked. Do you think I use these 'big words' without knowing what they mean?
> 
> It's pretty clear you've never read anything on the subject, so maybe you need to stop defining what is and isn't possible in terms of advice - you don't know, and you don't the limits of what is known. The best you seem to be able to do is re-hash what I've already told you.
> 
> ...


 
aww bless you bitten? lol

not much more to be said, good luck with ya spider pal what ever you decide to do.

try sending it to GRB and maybe he can ask it how it feels


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

lee middleton said:


> aww bless you bitten? lol
> 
> not much more to be said, good luck with ya spider pal what ever you decide to do.
> 
> try sending it to GRB and maybe he can ask it how it feels


So rather than actually answer the comments, you slink away. 

It's a shame you are not adult enough to simply say "hey, maybe someone else does know more than I do". You started this, seems I am ending it. 

You insult opinions of others, insinuate they don't know what they talking about, but when asked to put your money where your mouth is, you cower away trying to pass off a thin veneer of not being bothered. At least I can back up what I say. 

Truth is, all you have done is cement your ignorance of the topic to everyone. Yet another google expert who can't accept that their gospel might not be so universal as they assume. Have fun looking up the big words.


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## lee middleton (Nov 25, 2011)

GRB said:


> So rather than actually answer the comments, you slink away.
> 
> It's a shame you are not adult enough to simply say "hey, maybe someone else does know more than I do". You started this, seems I am ending it.
> 
> ...


 evan bigger bite! I should put lottery on tonight!

if you want an argument PM, we can do it in private not over someone's thread.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

So responding is a 'bite'? 

It's amusing you seem to think I'm riled. Why would I be? There's a certain satisfaction in dismantling your arguments. 

Don't mistake my stern tone for anger, as I believe being angry for one person's ignorance is just punishing yourself. : victory:


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## lee middleton (Nov 25, 2011)

GRB said:


> So responding is a 'bite'?
> 
> It's amusing you seem to think I'm riled. Why would I be? There's a certain satisfaction in dismantling your arguments.
> 
> Don't mistake my stern tone for anger, as I believe being angry for one person's ignorance is just punishing yourself. : victory:


ok im sorry you want me to admit you know more than me to please your internet ego, no worries.....

oh master of all invert knowledge, I apologise for questioning your wise theories and having an opinion of the subject and others. I shall never pass judgement on one of your comments again. please forgive me master.

happy?, I don't think so you'l have to reply to get the last word in, heres your opportunity.....


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

lee middleton said:


> *sincere apology omitted*
> 
> happy?, I don't think so you'l have to reply to get the last word in, heres your opportunity.....


OK. Don't want to disappoint, especially after that sincere apology. I'm glad you recognise the one-sided playing field for what it is though. 

It's incredible to think you might have avoided this all by a) not calling folk knobs and b) not assuming those with different opinions were by default less informed than you and c) not trying to play the sarcasm game.


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

GRB said:


> OK. Don't want to disappoint, especially after that sincere apology. I'm glad you recognise the one-sided playing field for what it is though.
> 
> It's incredible to think you might have avoided this all by a) not calling folk knobs and b) not assuming those with different opinions were by default less informed than you and c) not trying to play the sarcasm game.


And you could have done the same by not generalising in your initial post. 


Look at the end of the day we're only having this discussion because we all love inverts. That's something we can all agree on. Let's just leave it there.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Basin79 said:


> And you could have done the same by not generalising in your initial post.


It wasn't generalised, it was a direct comment on several threads lately where relatively new keepers have suggested euthanasia as an immediate treatment and then also jumped to conclusions about other issues such as 'DKS'. 

I attacked the idea, not the person. It's not like I suggested you were an idiot, or that the words you used to express it somehow changed the validity of it. 

For the 500 jars comment - well it's not exactly rare is it? When people buy their first tarantula half the comments are about how addictive they are and that they'll end up with hundreds. Doesn't gel with 'individual care' in my opinion. 

My entire point was simply to draw attention to the notion that killing an animal to end suffering is somewhat difficult if the animal might not actually feel pain or be capable of suffering per se. It's not problem some random dude decided to get into a pissing contest, but I wasn't going to let it lie.


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

GRB said:


> It wasn't generalised, it was a direct comment on several threads lately where relatively new keepers have suggested euthanasia as an immediate treatment and then also jumped to conclusions about other issues such as 'DKS'.
> 
> I attacked the idea, not the person. It's not like I suggested you were an idiot, or that the words you used to express it somehow changed the validity of it.
> 
> ...


See, now by explaining your initial post I can understand why you now responded like you did. I took it that you where directing the post towards me.


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

Why does one person always have to ruin a perfectly healthy discussion? Nobody was being personal, nobody was being offensive; people were just offering different insights & opinions on a situation. Yet this Lee guy wades in calling everyone a knob a just generally coming across quite horrendous. I don't understand?


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## lee middleton (Nov 25, 2011)

matty said:


> Why does one person always have to ruin a perfectly healthy discussion? Nobody was being personal, nobody was being offensive; people were just offering different insights & opinions on a situation. Yet this Lee guy wades in calling everyone a knob a just generally coming across quite horrendous. I don't understand?


please re read my original post I didn't call everyone a knob just pointing out there are some about. I didn't even call a specific person a knob. these things get out of hand easily. apologies if you took it the wrong way. but if you discard my other posts I still think the original post is a valid point.

yes it could of been worded differently lol


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

lee middleton said:


> please re read my original post I didn't call everyone a knob just pointing out there are some about. I didn't even call a specific person a knob. these things get out of hand easily. apologies if you took it the wrong way. but if you discard my other posts I still think the original post is a valid point.
> 
> yes it could of been worded differently lol



I just think you entered the thread with a massive chip on your shoulder, which there was no need for. 

The thread has been a bit heated in parts, but just due to differing opinions, which personally I enjoy. It's a different ball game when it's just slating people though. 

Not having a dig at you, just being honest - you kind of made yourself look a bit daft.


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## aide BURR (Jul 1, 2010)

*Back to thread*

As with all spiders when younger they would moult,hence growing a new limb,i myself have removed limbs when a t is stuck in a moult and had no probs but as for this fella he cant moult so to put it in laymens ,well if i had lost 2 arms 1 leg and my privates and have an urge constantly,id be thinking end it quick.
Also the only time i have lost limbs is on spiderlings twice in 20years of keeping good record ,but i think this spider was to dry in moult,i really wish people would learn to notice premoult and when this happens up the humidity in the tank whatever the species


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## mrsf15h (Jan 5, 2014)

aide BURR said:


> but i think this spider was to dry in moult,i really wish people would learn to notice premoult and when this happens up the humidity in the tank whatever the species


It was a fully mature male which do not usually molt again. Some have lived after molting a second time, but this is quite rare. So looking for signs of premolt wasn't top of the agenda!


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## martin3 (May 24, 2011)

The humidity in the enclosure has very little, if any affect on a moulting tarantula, what you need is a well hydrated tarantula.


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

God everyone kicking off at eachother over a spider the things clearly disabled .... will it ever repair itself and can it hunt and survive on its own if the answers no i have a solution .....


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## WelshBeardie (Apr 23, 2013)

Personally, I would leave the tarantula for a while to see how it copes with its situation. If he can hunt, eat and get around ok then I'd let it live. 

On the other hand it if showed obvious signs of 'distress' when carrying out the above then I believe euthanasia would be the kinder option over letting nature take its course. 

Chris

Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk


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## stevemet (Dec 29, 2011)

This is a genuine request for information and not an attempt to undermine anything said so far. If spiders and other inverts are incapable of feeling "pain" how do they know how to respond to heat and cold, whether too much or too little. I realise many are nocturnal and so are unlikely to suffer extreme heat and could possibly survive forest fires deep in a burrow, but do other inverts flee such events?


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

stevemet said:


> This is a genuine request for information and not an attempt to undermine anything said so far. If spiders and other inverts are incapable of feeling "pain" how do they know how to respond to heat and cold, whether too much or too little. I realise many are nocturnal and so are unlikely to suffer extreme heat and could possibly survive forest fires deep in a burrow, but do other inverts flee such events?


Pain is not the same as proprioception and sensory perception, basically. 

For example - you know where your hands are relative to your body when you close your eyes, but you don't need to feel pain in your hands in order to know this. This is proprioception. 

A tarantula could feasibly know where it's legs are without having painful stimulus, based on the mechanosensors in the leg joints. These respond to cuticular flex and stress; as you can imagine, this has no requirement for positive or negative stimulus. It's not impossible, but it seems a large cost for no apparent benefit. 

When considering temperature, the hairs on your arm will respond to your body temperature without concious thought - raising and lowering. Your heart beats and you breathe without concious effort. 

Basically, it is thought that a tarantula could function in a similar manner. We evolved pain because it has serious fitness consequences for us to ignore limb damage etc. We take a long time to develop, we cannot regenerate limbs, we do not commonly die during mating and mate multiple times. We require complex coordination to do even basic behavioural tasks vital to mating (lol). On a basic level, there doesn't seem to be any reason for a tarantula to evolve sophisticated pain reception, especially in males. 

A common defence in arthropods is to drop a leg when grabbed by an attacker - the fitness cost of losing a leg is less than dying. Now imagine this common scenario if they could feel pain - what benefit would drive this? Sure, a reluctance to drop legs is useful so that you wouldn't just drop them all immediately, but at the same time, if searing agony was involved in dropping a leg this doesn't seem to bring any benefits - pain is itself a stress and stress kills. We can alter our behaviour to favour a leg if it is damaged, to allow it to heal. Arthropods do not seem to be able to do this - if you male a leg of a locust, it does not put less pressure on the footpad than it did before it was damaged. One interpretation of this is that if pain was involved, surely the leg would be favoured? 

of course, it is possible that insects suffer pain in which case their lives must be hellish on a level impossible to contemplate. 

I will admit - I often change my mind on this issue because it is hard to watch arthropods and not anthropomorphise them. "It looks painful". I think they can certainly tell when something is "not good" but whether this is perceived as "painful" or not, I really don't know. There's too many behaviours that become very difficult to explain if you think they are extremely painful to enact.


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## stevemet (Dec 29, 2011)

GRB, thank you so much for taking the time to give such a detailed reply. It is hard at times to think of other animals having very different senses to ourselves. I can appreciate smell, touch and hearing vastly different to my own but, until reading your explanation of the pain stimulus, it has been hard to imagine things not hurting. As you put it there is no evolutionary benefit to pain in these animals so they have not evolved it. Once again thank you, the benefits of the forum still outweigh the odd battles that erupt.


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## Phototoxin (Aug 14, 2014)

I know I'm pretty knew ( I think this is my first proper post). However Tarantulas can ‘shed’ legs in order to escape. Schultz mentions having to amputate a limb – anesthetise the spider with a little CO2 to slow it down and then cleanly twist and pull the offending leg checking to make sure that the spider isn’t ‘bleeding’ haemolymph everywhere.

If you are seriously considering killing the spider I’d at least try the humane option of surgery first. Perhaps without the damaged legs holding him back he could move around? Also as for pedipalps – in time he might learn to use his Chelicerae to manipulate things.

Just my 2p. I know that I would feel bad unless it was truly the right thing to do and even then I’d feel sorry for the poor critter – after all we’re the ones responsible for them.


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## DodgemGreaser (Nov 7, 2013)

So what was the outcome of this


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