# Pond exotics



## catkindo (Aug 24, 2009)

I have a fairly large 3'-4' deep pond with 7 goldfish/koi ranging from 3.5''-7.5'' with a fairly good filter and a tiny bit of land. I was wondering I could keep an axolotl or small turtle in the pond? It does freeze over in winter but is deep enough to stay fairly warm at the bottom. If I cannot keep these in a pond, is there any other amphibians I could keep in it (it does already have some garden frogs and the occasional newt) or even a slightly more exotic fish (we already have weather loaches, but we don't ever see them).
Any help appreciated,
Catkindo


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

catkindo said:


> I have a fairly large 3'-4' deep pond with 7 goldfish/koi ranging from 3.5''-7.5'' with a fairly good filter and a tiny bit of land. I was wondering I could keep an axolotl or small turtle in the pond? It does freeze over in winter but is deep enough to stay fairly warm at the bottom. If I cannot keep these in a pond, is there any other amphibians I could keep in it (it does already have some garden frogs and the occasional newt) or even a slightly more exotic fish (we already have weather loaches, but we don't ever see them).
> Any help appreciated,
> Catkindo


You can keep sliders in a pond all year round.... adults are supposedly safe with fish! I'd ask in the shelled section.


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## catkindo (Aug 24, 2009)

Sliders are a little large, I was more thinking along the lines of musk turtles, axolotls, sirens and exotic fish. Thanks.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

hippyhaplos said:


> You can keep sliders in a pond all year round.... adults are supposedly safe with fish! I'd ask in the shelled section.


Seriously?


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## Moogloo (Mar 15, 2010)

I've seen sliders take a good sized duckling! I dont think fish are beyond them somehow...

No exotics can go in the pond because if it tolerates the cold water in this country (assuming UK) then you will find you need a license for keeping species that pose a threat, if you are even allowed to. 

None of the things you mention would tolerate the harsh winters and i wouldnt be surprised if you dont see the weather loach because they are dead...

What are the dimensions of the pond?
What filtration have you got?
What fish have you got? (specify between goldfish and koi because there is 2ft+ differences in sizes they get to..)


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## catkindo (Aug 24, 2009)

I have heard that axolotls, musk turtles, chinese sailfins and paradise fish can be kept in ponds overwinter. As for the dimensions I am not sure but I know it is around 3000 gallons with a 3000 gallon pump. Plus, our biggest fish as of now is a goldfish but I know that my kois and grass carps will grow. But right now I am sure my calm, friendly fish would not bite the axolotl and btw, the axolotl has no chance of escape.


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

why go exotic? some of the lesser used native fish can make for a good looking pond.

a perch for example, will have very vivid colours in clear water, and look spectacular!
also serves the purpose of population control for the goldfish. 

stand by the pond in a storm to see the weather loach, they tend to go nuts. i have known them to survive uk winters quite happily, but you shouldn't be letting your pond freeze over entirely, it will do no good for anything

also, some really golden rudd look lovely in a big shoal, and some chub can be impressive fish as they grow.


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## catkindo (Aug 24, 2009)

I realise that many native fish like perch and roach are both great but they would decimate the wildlife in the pond. Plus none of my goldfish had bred yet so I don't need population control. But thanks for the tips on spotting our loaches.


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

catkindo said:


> I realise that many native fish like perch and roach are both great but they would decimate the wildlife in the pond. Plus none of my goldfish had bred yet so I don't need population control. But thanks for the tips on spotting our loaches.


are you kidding? anything a roach will eat, your goldfish will already be eating a double portion of. a goldfish will outgrow a roach very easily, and it will get big much much quicker. 

Okay the perch may do a little more damage, but surprisingly, nature manages to balance itself out quite nicely in the thousands of waterways populated by perch all over the country, lol.

what exactly did you think an axolotl would eat in your pond? or a turtle for that matter? and paradise fish will not overwinter in a uk pond, unless you heat it? chinese sailfins look cool, but again, i doubt they could handle the winter. 

you could get a sterlet or 2, it sounds like you have the space. is your pond all 3-4ft deep, or have you got slopey sides?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

> Okay the perch may do a little more damage, but surprisingly, nature manages to balance itself out quite nicely in the thousands of waterways populated by perch all over the country, lol.


Because they are bigger than garden ponds, perhaps?


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

perch will struggle to increase their population in a garden pond though, due to egg predation by the goldfish and carp, as well as their own cannibalistic tendencies. 

I was trying mainly to point out that generally goldfish do more damage than most native fish, and also readily eat pretty much all the same things as the natives, including the inverts etc the perch will eat.


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## Jack the kipper (Aug 26, 2008)

Perch eggs are unedible to fish, it's one of the reasons they almost specialize in being the first fish species to naturally colonize new ponds. And they can absolutely thrive in them when they do.


I think Perch are great pond fish, it's a shame there isn't more folks chosing to keep them.


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

I wasnt aware of them being inedible, as i have seen both carp and goldfish attacking perch eggs strung along iris rooots, although i guess that doesnt mean they can digest them, carp in particular eat many things that simply pass through them. 
Is it the little hard case in the egg that protects them? 
I know they colonise waters easily by being first there, due to the stickiness of the eggs attaching to birds etc. 
My population never seems to grow, but at the same time, they cannibalise their young, so maybe the population doesnt grow because they eat the hatched fry rather than the eggs?


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## catkindo (Aug 24, 2009)

I've had an orfe but had to sell him as he killed 2 of my other fish including a large albino koi. I am now very wary of aggressive fish like perch eating my fish plus, they cannot eat normal fish food. That same problem goes for sterlets. Btw, my pond is still except for a small waterfall and is triangular with ledges and straight edges.


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

My orfe are quite peaceful, but they like to be in groups, maybe thats why yours was aggressive?

I would say you are running out of options by the sounds of it then. 

It is the overwintering that limits you more than anything else, as anything other than whats already been discussed will struggle to overwinter. 

What about pumpkinseeds if you can find any? They are pretty, and will readily overwinter, but i have no idea where you would find some? Technicaly illegal, but you could apply for a licence to keep them, although sourcing them would be a nightmare.


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## catkindo (Aug 24, 2009)

I'm quite sure that as long as the pond does not freeze solid then axolotls can be kept in a pond overwinter. If some research is done then it seems that they can be kept under a pond that has frozen over as they stay at the bottom. Plus, chinese hi-fin sharks and also weather loaches can be kept during winter.


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

catkindo said:


> I'm quite sure that as long as the pond does not freeze solid then axolotls can be kept in a pond overwinter. If some research is done then it seems that they can be kept under a pond that has frozen over as they stay at the bottom. Plus, chinese hi-fin sharks and also weather loaches can be kept during winter.


what about sharp ribbed newts, you cant get the albinos like you can with axolotl, but they grow quite large, and like cool water, i would imagine them to be much happier overwintering than an axolotl would, as they come from cooler waters in the first place.

incidentally though, axolotl also eat fish if they can fit them in their mouth


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

I notice Myxocyprinus asiaticus mentioned a few times,it would do fine,but they are illegal to keep in this country unless DEFRA have changed their policy.


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

Yip... Their diets becomes mere vegetarian as they get older, and there's pics somewhere in the shelled section of sliders in with koi/goldfish with no effects. 

That said it is something I'd think twice about, but it can be done!


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Sliders can be kept in an outside pond all year round, but a deep pond is not always ideal for them over the winter. You need to have a look in the Shelled section for more info on this as it is fairly complex.

Musk turtles would never be seen in a pond that deep and youngsters certainly don't do well in deep water. They need resting places etc to stand to get their heads above the water.

Turtles and fish can be kept together - personally, I don't agree with it in indoor setups (other turtle keepers disagree) but in a large pond it seems to work well. Romski, a very knowledgeable user in the Shelled section, has many photos of his natural outdoor ponds with turtles and fish living happily side by side. 

As for turtles (depending on the species) taking a duckling this is not a partiucularly common occurrence. Again, there has been much discussion in Shelled.


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## catkindo (Aug 24, 2009)

I've decided against turtles as they are risky and if they escape my dog or cats may kill it, the same goes for the Sharp-ribbed Newt. But thanks anyway.


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## catkindo (Aug 24, 2009)

Actually my pond is 3000 litres not gallons. I wish it were 3000 gallons.


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

that changes things a bit, lol. 
disregard most of my suggestions, as 3000 litres is not enough. i get away with variety as i have 3000ish gallons to fill, and hence have plenty of natural food to sustain most fish, so can have things like perch easily. 

erm, i'm not sure what else i could suggest really, as when the fish you have grow/multiply, they will fill 3000 litres quite easily themselves, especially if you have koi.


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## catkindo (Aug 24, 2009)

Is there any large (not destructive) inverts or fully aquatic amphibians that can be kept in a pond. Btw, I will probably just sell my fish if they get too big but right now they are growing quite slow and are very peaceful.


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