# Handling length/frequency and which of these snakes is the most handleable?



## yeep (4 mo ago)

Hi, I'm planning on getting a snake within the next couple months, possibly from a reptile expo. It'll be my first snake since I was young, an ill-fated affair with a corn snake. I plan on spending under $150 on the snake. I haven't nailed down the exact species yet, but I have put together a short(ish) list of basic starter snakes:

Milksnake/Kingsnake
Ball Python
Rosy Boa
Gopher/Pine/Bull Snake
Garter Snake
Western Hognose*

*I live in Colorado and only licensed breeders can sell the snakes. This seems to push up the prices locally, and make them hard to find. I can legally collect a hognose, but it might be extra hard to get it to eat and handle and I would have to worry about parasites. On the bright side, if I fail to acclimate the hognose I can always release it. Ideally I would find a hatchling, and it sounds like it's hatching season right now.

I may not pick an exact species until I see what's available at the expo, so I'm trying to collect as much information about all the species as possible. I would like to handle the my snake frequently, every day or every other day. I know the handleability of snakes varies by individual, but how would you rank the listed snakes in terms of their ability to tolerate handling?

In addition, I've read somewhat conflicting opinions on how often you can handle snakes. In general, people agree that you shouldn't handle your snakes after feeding, but the timeline varies, wait 24, 48, or 72 hrs after feeding. How long should I wait to handle a snake after feeding? In addition, it sounds like some say that you shouldn't handle snakes that often (less than daily) and you shouldn't handle if the snake is showing signs of stress, while others talk about breaking in an unruly snake by handling them daily. These conflicting opinions are confusing. How often do you think you should handle snakes and for how long?


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

No snakes need to be handled.
If you failed to keep a corn snake alive I would strongly suggest you start doing some research into keeping snakes before you even think about buying another one. Handling is the absolute last thing to consider.


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## yeep (4 mo ago)

ian14 said:


> No snakes need to be handled.
> If you failed to keep a corn snake alive I would strongly suggest you start doing some research into keeping snakes before you even think about buying another one. Handling is the absolute last thing to consider.


Of course they don't need to be handled. I want to handle them. It was two decades ago that I failed to keep the corn snake and I was honestly too young to own one. I've successfully kept a crested gecko for a decade now. I'm pretty confident I can keep a basic snake. I doubt they're more difficult to keep than my reef aquarium.


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## TheHouseofReptilez (Sep 26, 2021)

First off there is a few things that don't sit well with me at all so lets start,

*''On the bright side, if I fail to acclimate the hognose I can always release it''*

Why would a Hognose fail to acclimate in Colorado? and do not even think about releasing a captive bred snake into the wild, Ever wondered why specific states are cracking down on the keeping of snakes and other reptiles lately?

*''I was young, an ill-fated affair with a corn snake.''*

If you couldn't care for a corn snake even at a younger age all of the above are out of the question simple as that!

*''I plan on spending under $150 on the snake.''*

If you are planning on only spending 150 usd your options are going to be limited big time,

*''I haven't nailed down the exact species yet, but I have put together a short(ish) list of basic starter snakes''*

If you haven't fully decieded on the species you want I suggest you do a lot of reserch into each individual species not all them snakes you have listed are good starter snakes and as I always point out snakes are individuals just like us humans just because you get one or two that is calm relaxed and acts like a puppy doesn't mean you are guarenteed to get one like that.


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## yeep (4 mo ago)

There are loads of care sheets for these species online. I don't need information on how to keep any of these species because I can find that information online. I'm more interested in handling guidelines because a lot of the information online is contradictory or missing.



TheHouseofReptilez said:


> First off there is a few things that don't sit well with me at all so lets start,
> 
> *''On the bright side, if I fail to acclimate the hognose I can always release it''*
> 
> Why would a Hognose fail to acclimate in Colorado? and do not even think about releasing a captive bred snake into the wild, Ever wondered why specific states are cracking down on the keeping of snakes and other reptiles lately?


You didn't understand what I was saying. I was saying that if I collected a hognose from the wild, and I had trouble getting it to eat, I could re-release it.



TheHouseofReptilez said:


> *''I was young, an ill-fated affair with a corn snake.''*
> 
> If you couldn't care for a corn snake even at a younger age all of the above are out of the question simple as that!


I've successfully kept a Crested Gecko for a decade now. I am confident I can care for a reptile.



TheHouseofReptilez said:


> *''I plan on spending under $150 on the snake.''*
> 
> If you are planning on only spending 150 usd your options are going to be limited big time,


I know, that's why I specified that price. Indeed, some of those snakes I listed might be out of my price range depending on what I can find.



TheHouseofReptilez said:


> *''I haven't nailed down the exact species yet, but I have put together a short(ish) list of basic starter snakes''*
> 
> If you haven't fully decied on the species you want I suggest you do a lot of reserch into each individual species not all them snakes you have listed are good starter snakes and as I always point out snakes are individuals just like us humans just because you get one or two that is calm relaxed and acts like a puppy doesn't mean you are guarenteed to get one like that.


Which aren't good starter species? I compiled this list by picking and choosing from lists of easy snakes to keep online. I'd love to know which ones might be a problem.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Keeping a crested gecko is very different to keeping a snake.


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## yeep (4 mo ago)

ian14 said:


> Keeping a crested gecko is very different to keeping a snake.


Of course, however, the commitment to research and time spent on husbandry can't be that different. They're different, but are they harder?


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## TheHouseofReptilez (Sep 26, 2021)

A care sheet is just that a care sheet it's basic infomation for a species the problem is 95% of the time the infomation provided is wrong,

And just because a list says a specific species is a good starter snake doesn't always mean said snake is going to make a good starter snake I refer back to what I said in my last post *snakes are individuals just like humans you can get one that will tolerate handling and will never bite you or you could get one that will try and take your face off everytime you open the enclosure,*

And not to come across as rude but it's a Crested Gecko they are the most basic and easy to keep reptile on the face of the earth.


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## yeep (4 mo ago)

TheHouseofReptilez said:


> A care sheet is just that a care sheet it's basic infomation for a species the problem is 95% of the time the infomation provided is wrong,


Really? I guess I could vet the information online at a place like this, but I think you are using hyperbole here.



TheHouseofReptilez said:


> And just because a list says a specific species is a good starter snake doesn't always mean said snake is going to make a good starter snake I refer back to what I said in my last post *snakes are individuals just like humans you can get one that will tolerate handling and will never bite you or you could get one that will try and take your face off everytime you open the enclosure,*


Sure, but if I'm going to get a first snake I should still be selecting from species that are typically easy to keep. I wish you had read my original post in its entirety. From my original post, 2nd to last paragraph:

"I know the handleability of snakes varies by individual, but how would you rank the listed snakes in terms of their ability to tolerate handling?"

I don't have a problem with being bitten by snakes. I herped a lot as a kid and I'm used to being bitten. That's not what I was asking. I was asking mostly about the health of the snake. I understand that handling can be stressful for snakes and there are certain species that should not be handled that often. I also understand that even for a species that is known for being easy to handle there still may be individuals that do not like handling.



TheHouseofReptilez said:


> And not to come across as rude but it's a Crested Gecko they are the most basic and easy to keep reptile on the face of the earth.


Really? What makes them so easy? Especially when compared to easy-to-keep snakes?


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## yeep (4 mo ago)

TheHouseofReptilez said:


> *''I haven't nailed down the exact species yet, but I have put together a short(ish) list of basic starter snakes''*
> 
> If you haven't fully decieded on the species you want I suggest you do a lot of reserch into each individual species not all them snakes you have listed are good starter snakes and as I always point out snakes are individuals just like us humans just because you get one or two that is calm relaxed and acts like a puppy doesn't mean you are guarenteed to get one like that.


Also, can you answer the question I asked about which of these snakes make for bad first snakes? You claimed some of these species aren't great starter snakes, but you never mentioned which ones.


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## TheHouseofReptilez (Sep 26, 2021)

I never said any of them make bad first snakes don't try and twist words,

Any of the snakes you listed can fall into the catagory of a non starter snake again fot the third time it's dependent on the individual snake,

And what makes Crested Gecko's easier to keep than snakes...... Well the costs for a start it's cheaper to take a Crested Gecko to the vet compared to a 4 to 5 foot snake also the running costs of heating the enclosure, you can turn the heating off during the night for a Crested Gecko different story for a Royal Python they need consistent heat 24/7 so there's a big difference between running a 15w bulb for 12 hours a day compared to a 150w ceramic heat emitter 24/7 even if you decide to get something other than a Royal depending how big that snake gets the cost to run a higher wattage heating element is still going to cost you more than a Crested Gecko.


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## QWERTYOP (Apr 5, 2021)

I have a California Kingsnake. They have a reputation for being nippy/food aggressive. But mine is as gentle as it gets. He’s just a bit nervy, which has taken time to work on. You should handle a prospective purchase and see how it goes. You could buy a bitey/defensive corn even though they are generally placid. 

Handleability is a snake to snake thing rather than a species to species thing, and sometimes takes work. Personally I find earning a reptiles trust rewarding and worth the effort.

And please don’t keep something wild caught. You are asking for all kinds of problems there. It’s just not worth it, or a good way to heighten the odds of having a handleable pet.

I personally don’t think Royal Pythons or Hognoses should be on a list of ideal first time snakes. Others will hold a different opinion. Bottom line - the only way to understand the personality of the snake you’re intending to bring home is to spend time with it first. Whatever the species.

You should keep in mind too that YOUR own behaviour and actions towards the snake can and likely will play a part in how handleable they are too. If you are jumpy and nervous, the snake is more likely to be jumpy and nervous. If you’re constantly grabbing it out of its enclosure against its will because YOU haven decided it’s handling time, there’s a higher chance it could fear you, or at least take longer to get used to you. You’ll need to learn to be able to read your snake. To see it as a living being with its own wants rather than a possession that you handle whenever YOU feel like it.

Handling your snake is fun, but personally, I also see it as something of a privilege. For the most part, I handle my snake when HE comes to the glass and wants out. Because of this, he has become a LOT less nervous. Because I built up a series of positive/tolerable memories over time with him when it came to handling. By now, he realises I don’t want to eat him. Handle a prospective snake first, and go from there.


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## Malum Argenteum (5 mo ago)

yeep said:


> There are loads of care sheets for these species online.


Mostly junk. Any 'Amazon Affiliate' site is cut and pasted misinformation, and many others are dated or just armchair expertise. Ask people who have kept numerous specimens of the species, and ideally have bred them (since you'll likely be getting a hatchling/neonate). And don't just ask the vendor at the expo, and don't buy from a flipper (ask who bred the animals on the table. If the answer is "me", then they're not a flipper).

Your budget is a little tight. Animals at the low end of the species/morph price range are there for a reason that isn't good. Snake prices are through the roof lately. 

Milks can be good starter snakes, though they can be biters and muskers. I used to breed a couple subspecies (taxonomy has changed since then, but whatever) and gave it up because they were pretty miserable to work with. Exceptions certainly exist, both in species and specimens. Some are handleable, but antsy.

Hogs are funny. A WC one for a first snake is one of the worst ideas ever; a CB one could be a good first snake though they're troublesome feeders sometimes (at least, they can have spats that throw novice keepers into a tailspin). I breed a pair; they're fun. The worst snake bite I ever got was from a male hognose (I bled like a stuck pig). Handle well, except when they're hungry or in a mood (both of which can be often).

I breed rosy boas of both species. They're all over the board; any generalization about rosies (they never bite, they eat well, they're calm) have notable and vivid exceptions. A joy to handle, except the ones that try to eat your whole arm and come pretty close to doing it (I have a couple like that -- I handle them with a hook and gloves). They're not typically moody, at least.

As to how often to handle: 'snakes' is a suborder (Serpentes). So is 'ruminant' (all the cattle, deer, antelopes, and sheep). Generalizations about the whole group don't really hold. 'Conflicting opinions' are sometimes simply answers to a question that isn't one question. Some snake species/specimens should never be handled. Some are OK sometimes. Some don't seem much to care one way or the other, at least until they do.


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## spigotbush (Feb 8, 2019)

i'm going to have to disagree that handling should be the last thing to consider. if you are intending to handle then it should be a priority. certainly you might get a reputably easy species and that individual turns out to be non handler, but that is the gamble you take and its necessary to accept that even if it doest take to it you will still need to care for it. some species will be significantly more predisposed to accept handling than others. so i would say its essential to account for every aspect of a species you like before choosing. there are many species that are widely reported to be extremely against handling, to the detriment of their health, and some that are reliably ok with it.

as for how long and how often. i would think carefully about your house and what you mean by "handling". if you want something that will sit on your lap while you spend hours watching tv then a reptile is probably not what you want. you can handle and enjoy it but in my experience its not a long encounter. if you have a fairly cold house then having the snake out for a long time would be very stressful. my handling sessions tend to be 10-15 mins and a couple of times a week at most. that said, i interact with my snakes a lot. i will frequently be in the viv spot cleaning, checking and they will come and check things out.
my advice would be to handle on their terms, be patient and you have the best chance of a snake that will eventually be inclined to come out for pure curiosity sake. if you intend to reach in and scoop up a snake at will then you have the best chance of a defensive snake or one that is stuck in forced helplessness and will just be a scared potato or a thrashing demon. i am personally not a fan of forcing handling.
i would also consider activity. if you are around in the day but not at night then something like a royal/ball python would be fairly dull. you simply wouldnt see too much of it unless you force yourself on it. likewise if you are around at night but not the day you would miss most of the activity from a garter and have the same issue. regardless of interactivity its going to be much more interesting to keep animals that you will see. for that very reason i dont currently plan on keeping any nocturnal species as i would completely miss most of the activity.
the other side, is dont get a baby. it may take more time but if you rehome an adult you can see its personality and decide if you want to live with that individual. sure you miss them growing up but it would be more reliable to finding a handling tolerant animal.

i have not kept any of the animals listed so i wouldnt offer anything more than my opinions on how i would think on it. i would not get a hognose myself, especially for a first snake. i know they can be fine but i found it a learning curve to be able to read the body language of the snakes. i would not personally want to have venom in the mix whilst going through that process. i know its not that bad in comparison to some but as a recent thread showed up, many people have had issues.

i cannot protest more about the idea of catching a snake from the wild and then releasing it again if you struggle. for one there may be legal consequences. over here if you catch an animal it is then a captive animal and releasing it is the same as releasing any pet. regardless of where you sourced it, if its entered private care it is illegal to release it. i imagine there is a similar issue there as its illegal pretty much anywhere to dump pets. on top of that, unless you go through some seriously intensive medical testing you cannot know if you are accidentally releasing a pathogen into the environment. would you want to responsible for causing extensive ecological damage? it has happened, just look into fire salamanders in europe. or the spread of chytrid in amphibians. these things can appear from strange places and i would certainly would not take that risk.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Interesting thread... my 2p worth....

Handling is not something that is documented as it's down to the individual, both for the snake and the owner. Some will prefer not to handle their snakes for several reasons (most of which have been covered on the forum if the OP used the search function as this is a regular topic). No snake benefits from being handled. They don't seek affection in the way a cat or dog will. The instance the key is placed in the locks or the glass door opened the snake will flinch and tense up. Again, based on the individual animal it may just accept being grabbed and lifted out of the enclosure, or it may turn and bite. The wriggling and defensive posture is the snakes means of telling you it wants to be left alone. Not a problem with a 2' long sub adult Corn snake, but with an 8' boa that can end in bloodshed !! - There are times where handling shouldn't occur, such as when being used in a breeding project, and for at least 48 -72 hours after a meal.

Don't take a snake form the wild. The other posters have covered all the reasons why you shouldn't so I'm not going to repeat them.

Why are corn snakes recommended as a beginners snake over some of the others listed? - Because they are hardy, active, easy to feed, easy to breed, baring the odd individual are generally docile, and are affordable and obtainable from lots of breeders. I would not recommend some of the other species. There have been several posts where people are disappointed with Hognoses because they don't see them as the snake loves to burrow. They are also rear fanged and envenomation cases have been documented here on the forum, so again, use the search function to bring up those discussions. Royals are renowned for their fasting periods which stresses new keepers immensely. They are also active at night, when most people are sleeping, so in the day are hardly seen as they stick under the hides in the day time. 

Snake husbandry differs from lizards. Tropical species such as pythons and boa's need warmth 24/7. Their humidity is more critical, and are more susceptible to infections if you get it wrong. 

My advice to the OP. Do your research and focus on the actual requirements of the snake that takes your interest. Then once you have the enclosure set up and running correctly for at least three days before introducing the snake, then go and make the arrangements to purchase and collect the snake. Leave it alone for at least 4-6 weeks to settle and mark its territory, only disturbing it to change water every other day, and food once a week. Once you have it settled and feeding then it's down to you to introduce any handling regime you want.


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## Malum Argenteum (5 mo ago)

spigotbush said:


> for one there may be legal consequences. over here if you catch an animal it is then a captive animal and releasing it is the same as releasing any pet. regardless of where you sourced it, if its entered private care it is illegal to release it.


In the US, this is a matter of state law, which differs widely between states -- some have no legislation on the books, some have captive time limits after which release is illegal, some prohibit certain species but not all from rerelease (e.g. tadpoles can be morphed out and rereleased near the original body of water, but other herps cannot), some have blanket prohibition on rerelease. 

The relevant legislation is not always easy to find, and depending on second-hand online undocumented claims isn't reliable, so erring on the side of responsibility suggests that no captive animal from any source should be released.


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## yeep (4 mo ago)

Thanks for the advice. A lot of this advice is in line with what I've read online.

In general, it sounds like certain species should not really be handled at all while others may be handleable depending on individual temperament. It sounds like none of the species I listed are truly do-not-handle species. The best way to get a handleable snake is to get an adult and test handle before purchasing. I was planning on getting a baby, but I may try to get an adult now.

Handling periods should be relatively short, and can be done as frequently as the snake allows, but no more than once a day. I should wait to handle the snake for a couple days after feeding. This is somewhat different than advice I've seen online where people recommend force-handling snakes to acclimate them to being handled.

The non-handling advice is in line with what I've read too. The royals and hognose can have feeding problems. The milks/kings can have biting problems.

It seems I was wrong about the licensed breeder thing in Colorado. The *only* way for me to legally get a western hognose snake is to collect it. They're probably one of the hardest snakes to keep on my list so I'll wait. Hypothetically, the best possible collection scenario would be to catch a just-hatched snake, correct? This way, there is no/low risk of parasites, and the snake wouldn't be particularly different from a just-hatched captive bred snake right? I wouldn't do this for my first snake, but I may try later.

I'm familiar with humidity and temperature needs for reptiles from the crestie. The crestie is nocturnal like royal pythons. The nocturnal/diurnal difference doesn't matter that much. I am at home during the day about half the week so a diurnal snake would work, and I also stay up quite late so a nocturnal animal would work fine too.

I know I've set my price limit quite low. I'm not into the morph hype though, and based on prices I've seen online, I should be able to find any of these snakes for sale at or under $150 at least for babies (one exception is the hognose, which I can't buy anyway). Will the prices I see online be reflected at the expo or will the prices likely be higher.

The crestie I have is technically a rescue. It looks like there are a few royal/ball pythons available through the colorado human society for $55. This might be a great choice for me.


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## TheHouseofReptilez (Sep 26, 2021)

An adult is good and all just be sure the infomation you are provided is on point my first snake was a 3 year old corn was told she's mellow likes to be handled so on so on and while most of what they told me is true they failed to mention that she has random outbursts and will bite for no reason and without showing any signs she's bitten me on the legs my upper arms lower arms my hands and most recent my nose lmao,

Thankfully she is just a corn snake as it would be a different story if it was my Royal although I will give her credit on the nose bite that did tickle a little.


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## yeep (4 mo ago)

TheHouseofReptilez said:


> An adult is good and all just be sure the infomation you are provided is on point my first snake was a 3 year old corn was told she's mellow likes to be handled so on so on and while most of what they told me is true they failed to mention that she has random outbursts and will bite for no reason and without showing any signs she's bitten me on the legs my upper arms lower arms my hands and most recent my nose lmao,
> 
> Thankfully she is just a corn snake as it would be a different story if it was my Royal although I will give her credit on the nose bite that did tickle a little.


I'll definitely handle any adult snakes I buy before buying them.

It sounds like gopher snakes, and some species of garter snakes are also collection only in my state.


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## yeep (4 mo ago)

Also, it sounds like you can release a hognose back into the wild in Colorado if it has not come into contact with any reptiles or amphibians from other geographical locations and if they are released within 10 miles of where they were captured.


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## johntog (Aug 29, 2021)

I agree with everything that's been said about researching. I've not kept any snakes for many years, about 35 years I think, but did keep a number of different species successfully before that. I can only add information from my own experience. I kept and reared a pair common boas from babies until they were about 6 -7 feet, lovely creatures but get large and therefore quite expensive to keep if any of that is a concern. They tolerated handling very well as long as you had no trace of their food on you, but that can go for all snakes. Orange and yellow rat snakes, very active and can be quite aggressive and bitey, mine used to strike at the glass doors if you just walked past. I also kept several different types of Kingsnakes and always found them all very easy to keep and tolerated being handled very well. Our knowledge of how to care for these animals has improved a hell of a lot since I kept these animals and the equipment has also come along in leaps and bounds after 35 years, so it's easier to keep reptiles well now IMO. Do your research. There must be a good care sheet on this site for Kingsnakes which are my preference. I successfully kept reef tanks for a number of years and would agree, to do that well can certainly be a lot more complicated and difficult than keeping the snakes I've mentioned. 
John


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## Malum Argenteum (5 mo ago)

yeep said:


> Will the prices I see online be reflected at the expo or will the prices likely be higher.


There are sometimes less expensive deals to be had online -- which are not always a 'deal', if you know what I mean, but a persistent classifieds watcher can snag some very nice animals that are well under market value if a smaller breeder simply doesn't know the market, or the breeder is an old timer who hasn't caught up with the price increases of late. 

But in general, most vendors will discount their animals at expos (especially the last hour or two of the expo, when vendors are very willing to discount). I personally mark on the deli cup the price I list that very animal online, and then the discounted expo price. The last time I prebought an animal online for pickup at a show, the cluchmates of the animal I bought were something like 25% cheaper than what I paid. It is harder to vet a vendor at an expo than if you have two hours to research them before an online purchase, so there are tradeoffs.



yeep said:


> Hypothetically, the best possible collection scenario would be to catch a just-hatched snake, correct? This way, there is no/low risk of parasites, and the snake wouldn't be particularly different from a just-hatched captive bred snake right? I wouldn't do this for my first snake, but I may try later.


A WC or CB snake can carry pathogens at any point in its life. Snake fungal disease (_Ophidiomyces ophiodiicola)_ is known to be vertically transmitted (from dam to offspring) by live bearing and egg laying snakes. IBD arenavirus is vertically transmitted in boas.

Do be aware that if you bring any snake into an existing collection it is very sensible to QT it in a different room for at least a few months to watch for mites and have it tested for pathogens (crypto, the handful of viruses that are getting more common, and for WC snakes probably SFD and intestinal parasites). 

Captive bred snakes are selected in part for traits such as tolerance of captive diets, so a CB hatchling is much likely to be a good feeder than a WC or CH (captive hatched from eggs laid by a gravid WC female) one. I personally don't hold back any snakes for my own breeding that are anything less than perfect starters, and seek this out in breeding stock that I purchase. Starting snakes feeding is hard enough, so I try to breed this in (it does work).



yeep said:


> It looks like there are a few royal/ball pythons available through the colorado human society for $55. This might be a great choice for me.


That's a great option for the snake, for sure. We need to make sure all the animals have good homes before we breed more of them.


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## QWERTYOP (Apr 5, 2021)

yeep said:


> Hypothetically, the best possible collection scenario


Stop there. Just drop all of your thoughts about wild caught stuff. If you’re not joking. Which at this point I’m not entirely convinced of. But if you are, just leave that alone. Your only thought should be captive bred. For multiple reasons.


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## yeep (4 mo ago)

Malum Argenteum said:


> There are sometimes less expensive deals to be had online -- which are not always a 'deal', if you know what I mean, but a persistent classifieds watcher can snag some very nice animals that are well under market value if a smaller breeder simply doesn't know the market, or the breeder is an old timer who hasn't caught up with the price increases of late.
> 
> But in general, most vendors will discount their animals at expos (especially the last hour or two of the expo, when vendors are very willing to discount). I personally mark on the deli cup the price I list that very animal online, and then the discounted expo price. The last time I prebought an animal online for pickup at a show, the cluchmates of the animal I bought were something like 25% cheaper than what I paid. It is harder to vet a vendor at an expo than if you have two hours to research them before an online purchase, so there are tradeoffs.
> 
> ...


Good to know, the expo might be the best bet for getting a deal. There's a high quality reptile store near me too. I handled a juvie pastel ball python today that was quite nice. 

Quite interesting that diseases can be transferred vertically. It's definitely not a good idea to start with a WC snake, but maybe at some point. It would be a unique experience to herp for a pet snake.

Yeah! It would be great to rehome one of those ball pythons. 

I've been thinking a bit and my snake list has changed a bit

Rosy Boa
Ball Python
Dwarf locality boa constrictor

The rosy boa is at the top of the list. It's ideal in my space-limited apartment, and they would do quite well in my climate with few changes. They're also moderately priced, and extremely beautiful snakes, 

The ball python and the dwarf boa constrictor also seem like great choices, but I would have to raise the temp and augment the humidity to keep them.


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## spigotbush (Feb 8, 2019)

the dwarf locality boa can be a minefield. you would really want to be 100% sure of the breeder before going down that road. its hardly unheard of for a "dwarf" to get to normal size. many were bred to larger varieties for colour and pattern sake. there are people who maintain clean bloodlines but just be extremely careful. i seriously considered dwarf boas myself for a long time, still do, but i know i would struggle if i got a bad deal and ended up with a full size boa.

the wild caught idea. i really think its best to leave that whole thing alone. there is no good reason to do it any a multitude of reasons not to do it. plus, why take on all the risks and expense of attempting a wild caught snake when you can just go out and see them in the wild for free. if you could go out and catch one then you can go out and find them and enjoy them in their proper place along with other species too. take out a temp gun and record how/where you find them and you could be offering great info for the hobby too. its a different kind of hobby but more valuable than catching a wild snake and could be a big positive for keepers everywhere who keep species local to you.


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## Elly66 (Feb 27, 2021)

Forget legalities and think morally- just don't take one from the wild!

You do need to decide on your snake type and get the set up ready BEFORE actually collecting your snake. They have different needs and their new home needs to be available as soon as you get it home. Setting up also gives you time to check temperatures etc are being maintained at the level needed.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

The boa pool is a mess, so you need to be very careful. Three decades ago it was easy to spot the differences between true red tails and commons, and dwarf species such as Hogs or Clays stayed small (by small I mean around 4 - 5' as adults). Then breeders thought that it would be great to get the beauty of true redtails but in a snake that is smaller such as commons and then even dwarf species, so started crossing them... the result, we now have male common boa's reaching 8'+ (I'm talking from experience here) and females touching 9 or 10' compared to the 6' and 8' that was typically the size reached before all this cross breeding. The size of dwarfs also increased, and some of their locality traits got bred out.... So given this information, IF you consider a boa you need to be prepared for a snake that could reach 7' for a dwarf species or 9' if its a common. They need warm air environment, so the heating costs are going to be considerably more than a rat snake.

The handling after feeding could induce a regurgitation which isn't pleasant for both the snake or the owner. A large meal can take a snake up to four days before it's passed through the gut into the intestines, so that's why you should reframe from handling at least for 48 / 72 hours.

Money also seems to be a consideration, and if you are on a limited budget and funds are tight then maybe consider some other pet rather than a reptile. The cost of the enclosure, heater, UV lighting, thermostats, substrate and decor, food and the snake itself isn't cheap. Running costs are high at the moment. I know the US isn't seeing the cost of gas and electricity rise as much as it is in the UK and Europe, but it should still be considered. Running a set up for a tropical species has just got very expensive. Your ability to purchase and provide the right equipment should also form part of your research. Elly's post above is also so true. Get the setup running first and then purchase a captive bred snake.


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## Malum Argenteum (5 mo ago)

I agree on the comments about dwarf B.c.i needing caution in purchasing (I don't keep any, but pay attention to the forums and classifieds). There are a couple respected and reliable US breeders of Central American and island locales who should be the first and only choice for source; if some random person is selling a "dwarf" boa and can't give absolutely certain and documented (purchase receipts, or can connect you personally with the breeder for a confirmation) then just say 'thank you' and walk away. In researching the locales you'll figure out who these breeders are.



yeep said:


> The rosy boa is at the top of the list. It's ideal in my space-limited apartment, and they would do quite well in my climate with few changes. They're also moderately priced, and extremely beautiful snakes,


Well, their cost is up the last three years or so (they maxed out last year and seem to be a little less expensive this year -- MM starts at $165 currently, and interestingly those are from who most consider the most respected Baja rosy breeder). Oddly, I get higher prices on my rosies at expos than online since they're not common in the Midwest. 

Anyway, _L. trivirgata _("Mexican" and mid- and lower Baja locales) are generally better for handling and are a smaller species;_ L. orcutti _can be a handful (California coastal locales can be biters, though my limited experience with a high desert locale has been better).

I know a herp keeper from the CO front range, and by the sounds of it keeping a B.c. or Royal (we're in the UK here, so we can use the accurate common name ) would be much more difficult than keeping a rosy. Rosies thrive in hot and dry (you'd likely need to provide a moist hide; I don't since ambient RH is high enough where I am), so provide a good temp gradient and you'd be in good shape.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

yeep said:


> *Of course they don't need to be handled. I want to handle them*. It was two decades ago that I failed to keep the corn snake and I was honestly too young to own one. I've successfully kept a crested gecko for a decade now. I'm pretty confident I can keep a basic snake. I doubt they're more difficult to keep than my reef aquarium.


This says it all. You are not considering the needs of the animal but what YOU want.
You say that you are pretty confident you can keep a "basic" snake yet you managed to fail to keep the most "basic" of any snake species.
I would strongly suggest that you climb down from your pedestal, and start taking on board the advice you are being given.
Snakes do not need to be handled. They don't get enjoyment from it. Your insistence on handling is clearly for your own personal benefit, and this should never be put before the welfare needs of the animal


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## TheHouseofReptilez (Sep 26, 2021)

Glad I'm not the only one who pointed out that he failed to keep the most basic of species,

Not going to have a dig at you but as said if you failed to keep a corn snake even if it was some years ago and the only thing you've really kept within that period is a Crested Gecko (Big step down from a corn snake) what makes you so confident that makes you think you can now successfully keep and maintain one of the species you have listed?

Not to come off like a d*ck but when I first got into snakes my first choice was always a Royal Python but Instead I decided to go for a corn snake I figured I'd learn all I could in how to care for and maintain them making sure I put the needs of that animal before my own during that time I got 2 more corn snakes and a Leopard Gecko eventually I felt confident in myself from all the research I had done that now I could successfully keep a Royal to which I got Odin and Thursday just gone I added a Lesser Royal to my collection his name is Loki,

All I'm saying is take the time to research the species you are most interested in learn everything you can and always put the needs of that animal before your own.


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