# Clay substrate?



## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Anyone over in the UK currently using this idea?

Clay Substrate How-To - Dendroboard


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

i have been thinking about giving it a try mate, but i dont seem to have all the answers im looking for on why this is soooo good and the proven benifits.

its some thing im currently reading into


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I am thinking about getting pums, and this is meant to help the froglets in early development as you can't really dust the springs and isos with powder in the viv. I was just wondering if people have cracked onto this or how they might overcome Ca+ deficiency in young pums.


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

plasma234 said:


> I am thinking about getting pums, and this is meant to help the froglets in early development as you can't really dust the springs and isos with powder in the viv. I was just wondering if people have cracked onto this or how they might overcome Ca+ deficiency in young pums.


the thing i dont get is the way this is supposed to work is the Ca is added to the clay then enriches the water when misted so the frogs soak in the water and take in the Ca...... what i dont understand is how long will 1/2 a cup last? and i would guess you woul dneed to replace the substrate regular 

at the same time the springs and woods will also absorb this Ca... 

it would only really work if the little frogs are left in.... 

its all confusing me mate i have just got into Pums and same as you trying to also work out of this will give huge benifts and help

springs and woods contain Ca would it not just be worth getting a rearing box packed with these and adding Ca to the usual subs we use? could our usual subs leak Ca into water like clay?

i dont know these answers but im hell sure gona try find out and will let you know what i find

anyhow dude what pums you planning to keep??


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

It must depend on how you plan on raising froglets then, if you choose leave in the viv then it might be beneficial? Its the idea that the springs carry small particles of clay enriched with ca, then that essentially is the dusting. Also, the froglets could place their absorbtion patches on the clay itself and abosorb ca that way. I didn't think about them soaking in it..that's a good point. 

It might still be beneficial to use it in the rearing tubs, just a thinner layer, as it isnt cheap lol. The substrate is meant to last years. Maybe you could remove, re mould into cubes and bake again, killing any bacteria....

I have my eye on some cauchero. My favourite dart :no1:
What about you?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

As I recall, Morgan Freeman (used to post on here) tried it as a background, but it turned out to be too unstable. Might work better as a substrate, though.


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

plasma234 said:


> It must depend on how you plan on raising froglets then, if you choose leave in the viv then it might be beneficial? Its the idea that the springs carry small particles of clay enriched with ca, then that essentially is the dusting. Also, the froglets could place their absorbtion patches on the clay itself and abosorb ca that way. I didn't think about them soaking in it..that's a good point.
> 
> It might still be beneficial to use it in the rearing tubs, just a thinner layer, as it isnt cheap lol. The substrate is meant to last years. Maybe you could remove, re mould into cubes and bake again, killing any bacteria....
> 
> ...


got a pair of black jeans, ugama & chirique grande (spelling prob wrong)

yeah its got to be worth a try.... what i also dont get is if its really that good for the frogs why only do it for pums???? think hard bit will be to source the stuff, let me know how you get on fella and ill do the same if i can find the stuff


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Ron Magpie said:


> As I recall, Morgan Freeman (used to post on here) tried it as a background, but it turned out to be too unstable. Might work better as a substrate, though.


i remember Mr Freeman.... his pic is the one on the home page of the peacock frog (could be worng on the name of the frog but defo his) 

not seen him in ages ron


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> i remember Mr Freeman.... his pic is the one on the home page of the peacock frog (could be worng on the name of the frog but defo his)
> 
> not seen him in ages ron


He's a friend of mine on Faceache, but he doesn't post here anymore. And you are right on the peacock frog :2thumb:


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## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

Clay is impermeable to water, this means that it will get waterlogged easily.

This is due to the small size of clay particles, as they are smaller their surface area to volume ratio increases, therefore increasing the ionic bonds between each. This then attaches water to the clay particles because water is a polar molecules (Hydrogen and oxygen attaches to the clay surface), this increases the surface tension of the water, reducing the amount of water which can flow. So if used as a substrate water will not be able to infiltrate, or evaporate, causing water which gets into the clay hard to get out (under normal temperatures i.e. not being dried in an oven)

So a clay layer will need to have to be kept dry otherwise the structure would break and the above would happen (water logged clay).

It could also be suggested that the dry clay would break into dust, this could cause respiratory problems (It does with me and my asthma).

If you are trying to get more calcium into the diet, dusting is generally used.

I still don't understand the benefit of having calcium carbonate as a substrate/blocks in a vivarium, which will then be sprayed. It will effectively create an alkali solution, which can damaging to amphibian skin if the concentration is high enough. 

In theory the calcium will be leached into your substrate e.g. coconut husk. But this can be damaging, it may effect springtails (with the eggs), as forest floors are acidic (pH 3 to 5 usually), and increase above 7 may have negative effects. The increase in pH will also affect any ground plants, probably reducing their growth as more calcium is leached out.

I can't see too much benefit which can't be gotten in a more controlled way e.g. dusting food with calcium powder.

Just my thoughts and reasoning behind them.


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## brynnjenkins (Aug 11, 2012)

I dont think there is any benefits to this personally. Iv done a clay background and they dry up very easy and mess with ph as pointed out. I use a calcium liquid added to my misting water and they absorb from this. I dont always add it just once a week or so but maybe might help you guys


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Its not a solid clay floor, it is small clay particles that water will be able to pass between. Has anyone read the thread I posted? It is very susceptible to being mashed into a solid block, so you don't go planting after the clay has been rehydrated.


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## aberreef (Aug 10, 2010)

I can't remember my login details for dendroboard so can't see the pictures BUT.........................

At a guess I'd say the vivs being used aren't the ENTs that we use in the uk so water will soak through the 'thick layer of leaf litter', drain through the clay and get removed from the system. The theory seems sound to me. You can't dust springtails, they are way too small so the idea is to bring them into contact with a calcium rich substrate before they get eaten by the frogs.

This is particularly used for pumilio because they need springtails for an extended period, larger frogs can take dusted ffs from the beginning:2thumb:

Off to try and source some of the ingredients : victory:


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Another good point, I don't know how it will stand up being in contact with glass permanently, they all seem to be using egg crate or leca false bottoms. I wonder if that will shorten the life. 

With regards to sourcing material, I have found all of the items required, even the fungal innoculant. The redart clay has to be subbed for terracotta clay. The issue is price, you need such small amounts to do a tank but they are only sold in large quantities. I might make up a load and sell it at non profit.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

I've known several to try, few (if any) to succeed... 

Bare in mind though that you don't need to go the whole hog with scaping and background. I would have thought there is benefit in simply using a clay-enriched substrate in the usual way - that's what I do.

Nick


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

how it looks in viv, so as you can see, its a particulate substrate. it has loads of air pockets for microfauna to thrive (reportedly does so massively),









there is it dried.

you put it in viv dry and spray it until it becomes hydrated again, then you dont touch it. because it then become very easy to compress.


EDIT:


*NOT MY PHOTOS *


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

first up I think you are missing a basic principal here,it is a mineral substrate,as opposed to an organic sub,like soil,most of us use organic material as the subs,so over a goodly while it gets broken down,become anaerobic, not great for micro fauna. The clay lumps won't if left undisturbed as Calz says,root around in it and I guess it all goes south,as was illustrated earlier,compacted clay is pretty watertight. 

Like all things we do essential is a big word to use,so many methods to utilize,we have to find the one for each of us. Let's not forget also that a paththway for trace elements and minerals seems to come from bits of detritus that get injested with the food item or picked up by the tongue it's self. 

Now is a clay sub essential to rear a pum,nah corse not,but might it be benificial to rearing is the real Q. If essential,I wouldn't have baby pums bouncing around,but might it aid that odd little pum that isn't doing great,hmm. I haven't tried yet,but,that is why the method is interesting,for me. 

Pums were really difficult to rear not so long ago,we are surfing the back of products like repashy,new thoughts about vit A carotenoids bla de bla,all fairly recently being pondered,and used.So I think we are finding it easier,than just a few years back with these "aids." 

In nature we have a mineral based soil,on top of that nature dumps organic matter,leaves mainly for us plus the odd big lump of wood,so what they are trying to do is exploit a more natural sub,i guess. Now the key area seems to be the join/interface between organic and mineral sub as far as our wee feeders go,from what I can gather,hence why the feeders do so well?couple in of course the aforementioned capacity for organics to brake down. One can dust springtails,it isn't great I guess, they seem so sensitive to drying out,but use a mortar and pestle to grind vit dust further,is an option,done it. We can also make sure all feeders have access to Ca in culture. 


So i'm keen to try this too,just getting there tis all. I collect leaf litter from a clay based soil,lumps get picked up so it does end up in our vivs and possibly that aids us. I think all these little things are incremental and add up to better results,clay subs might well be part of that. It is very difficult to assertain 
which of our methods are actually giving us great results. I'm one that looks into many,I have a very strong gut feeling that all of it adds up and one keeper seemingly walks through this fairly easily with very few losses another has problems.
I don't really think pums are that different to other darts,but are a bit trickier at an earlier age,so clay should really benefit all of our darts not just pums. 

Clay is bloody heavy,which hasn't been touched on,so another factor to consider.

As Above we haven't used this yet,so what can I say other than another ramble without results or conclusions But, I suspect strongly they are on the right track with these subs,just seem to replicate nature more than what I do at this time


Stu


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

plasma234 said:


> Its not a solid clay floor, it is small clay particles that water will be able to pass between. Has anyone read the thread I posted? It is very susceptible to being mashed into a solid block, so you don't go planting after the clay has been rehydrated.


i read it mate


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Tbh, I kinda knew you had , you aren't part of "anyone" lol:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

It seems like me that the only thing it is trying to do is add calcium to the system. Why can't you just cut out the clay and add the calcium with your normal substrate?

But in any case the calcium will be deposited to the bottom of the substrate (the cube of clay), as water moves down it carries the calcium.

Clay is made up of sheet silicates, aluminium and silica compounds which are quite unreactive. There are other impurities e.g. Calcium and sodium.

This may sound weird. But would it be possible to somehow fix calcium to the surface of leaves? When water dries it will leave the calcium on the surface of that leaf, giving the same effect. As the whole idea of the clay mix is to have the springtails ingest the clay (which they may or may not do), so applying it to something they deliberately consume, or which fungus and mold grows on which is subsequently eaten (When fungus/mold grows it will absourb the calcium from the leaf)

So perhaps get a sandwich bag of leaves. Add a calcium solution e.g. 5g of calcium in 20ml of water to this bag, then shake the bag. Leave to dry with the top of the bag open by a window, then add the leaves to the vivarium. 

The problems I see with this are:
1. The calcium may wash off with misting
2. How long will it take for this to work?

But as said in an earlier post, spraying down the vivarium with a calcium solution should do the trick.


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## aberreef (Aug 10, 2010)

Nice idea Patto but the calcium will reduce the pH of the water used to spray the viv or the leaves if these are coated. I wouldn't imagine this would be too good for the frogs  The idea of the clay substrate with leaf litter on top is the frogs will predominantly be exposed to acidic conditions: victory:


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

The problem with just mixing or spraying calcium into standard organic subs is that they then become locked up in the plants or the smallest micro fauna. Meaning it will be inaccessible to the isos and springs and in turn to the frogs. The clay is impregnated all the way through, so even if that water did erode the subs then it wouldn't matter as there is calcium throughout.


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## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

Has anyone tried it, and tested to see if the calcium remains in the clay? I think that would be the only way of knowing. I think it will be leached out, from at least the outer surface. But it can be very hard to tell.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Patto96 said:


> It seems like me that the only thing it is trying to do is add calcium to the system. Why can't you just cut out the clay and add the calcium with your normal substrate?
> 
> But in any case the calcium will be deposited to the bottom of the substrate (the cube of clay), as water moves down it carries the calcium.
> 
> ...


You're missing the capacity of this sub,to potentially hold a bigger micro fauna population,plus the repeat of a totally organic sub to brake down to an anaerobic sludge.

Pums oft get reared in viv,so competition with parents is a factor,we can't hurl ff at them they are too small,so the principal feeders for them will be what's is in the subs,or what we bung in to the subs on a daily basis As far as the Ca goes,well I would guess it is constantly replenished by us dumping in ff covered with the stuff.

Buddy, I love the out of the box thoughts,I'm not rubbishing them,but an organic sub is what it is,sooner or later something will cause it to brake down. We Will never replicate nature in a glass box,but the harder we try the more factors that get covered... where does that lead? Whether it be subs,light(uvb), out of the box thinking will get us further,that's exactly why folks use clay ,some one actually stopped and pondered is my substrate similar to that in nature,nah so what's missing?
What do you keep mate?

Stu


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I think the proof would be with some of the Americans who have tanks edging onto a decade old I guess. I am not doubting that it is effective, tbh, I am interested in seeing if anyone on this side of the water is using it and how they went about it.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

plasma234 said:


> I think the proof would be with some of the Americans who have tanks edging onto a decade old I guess. I am not doubting that it is effective, tbh, I am interested in seeing if anyone on this side of the water is using it and how they went about it.


Calz,what you just said about the ten year viv,is totally why I use american forums. I can't find that guy here. Everything apart from subs so far(and I've pondered that in some depth) has been about popping some frogs in a glass box and keeping them their for years. I really don't want to be swapping vivs or frogs for something else. 

I came across the clay too late,for my infancy,of dart keeping ,which incidentally I still believe I'm in. But even with all the thought I put in to subs I see failings,long term. I guess my usual look guys I messed up learn from it is why I'm posting here. I can give you a sub., teaming ,on a grand scale with iso,but a spring pop., I struggle on. Sure I can get around it,I graft and culture millions of the buggers. But will I constantly ponder where I could maybe have done better,OH HELL YEAH!!

We try to pop a rainforest in a glass box,it simply isn't possible,but the little things stack up,I just can't get away from it mate,all those little things,if clay is one and I can sort all the differences with red dart and what is applicable here,I need to go there.

We live below a limestone escarpment on cold hard clay ,it has to be Ca enriched,but so far the data I need has eluded me,to prove my hunches. Bro don't buy clay if you can find more data to prove my hunches about what clay I have underneath us. PM me and I'll give you exact detail of where we are. But red dart is ali silicate I believe(might have got that wrong ,too much work and K nackered) . Red dart is a red clay,I live on what is basically,green/grey,I need someone to get the fundamental differences over to me,Yeah I've tried forums. ron and I discussed red laterite soils way back,oft found in tropics huh,so the fundamental differences in colour,lack of iron oxide? mess with me.


Calz can you post what you know about the differences with terracotta and other clays found in blighty please,do that here so all of us can learn. We might be able to build something between us that doesn't cost us the (ha ha) earth:blush: Well it won't if I can just dig a hole in an organic garden that we already know provides food for darts that do ok:whistling2:. 

If it helps it makes bricks too,lmfao my house is built of bricks from clay say 200yds away,somewhere Ron mentioned old hippies,eco friendly we are:whistling2:. 

Stu


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Just a birrova spanner in the theoretical works... :whistling2:

From my experience in tropical countries (including South America) the soil is mostly a very thin layer of (rapidly decomposed) organic leaf-litter-stylee organic material over laterite clay- which so far as I can tell, is high in iron and aluminium, but not especially high in calcium.

Laterite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That kind of relates to my attitude on diet; we can do the best we can, in captivity, but our vivs, the variety of food sources and even the basic chemistry are pale shadows of the real environment.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

plasma234 said:


> I am thinking about getting pums, and this is meant to help the froglets in early development as you can't really dust the springs and isos with powder in the viv. I was just wondering if people have cracked onto this or how they might overcome Ca+ deficiency in young pums.


As you know Callum, I've been breeding a few different pums for a while now.

I dabbled with a variation of clay substrate in my San Cristobal viv to be sure, however to be quite honest the froglets born and reared in my bribri and black jeans viv have all grown well and appeared to be perfectly healthy. Calcium just hasn't been a problem. All of my vivs however have colonies of both springtails and dwarf white woodlice in them though.


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Out of interest ade, do you provide uv for your pum tanks? 

I would think that the clay subs would make a better culture medium for springs, if you were a person who chose to pull froglets early, then maybe that could be a way to provide extra ca. 

Stu, I have found an post that outlines what is in 

SiO2.............................................. ..64.27%
Al2O3............................................. ..16.41%
Fe2O3 ................................................7. 04%
TiO2 .................................................. 1.06%
MgO............................................... ..1.55%
CaO .................................................0 .23%
NaO ................................................0. 40%
K2O .................................................. 4.07%
LossonIgnition..................................4. 92%

But I cannot find any info like that on terracotta clay. I think that powdered clay would suffice. http://www.bathpotters.co.uk/red-earthenware-powdered-clay-11352/p1813 As you can see redart clay is pretty low in calcium, hence why you add 25% calcium bentonite clay and also the aragonite sand is crushed up seashells, also high in calcium ofc. 

Ha I wish I could go digging for red clay, maybe if the new forest has a patch I might take a spade and a bucket but disguise it as a romantic picnic :lol2:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

The time I used clay I basically used Tropica plant substrate with added calcium carbonate and calcium bentonite clay. Tropica is basically pelleted calcium bentonite with sphagnum moss added to it. It was the best I could come up with without trying to hunt around clay supplier to find the UK versions of the US recipee.

As to UV lighting, nope, plain old lighting, not saying it wont help just that I'm not using any. Heck there'd be no point over either my black jeans or San Cristobals as it'd never get through the glass. I also leave froglets in with their parents for the first 3 months, sometimes longer. I can't stress enough however how well seeded my vivs are. Don't take my word for it, Adam recently stripped down one of my ex pum vivs and saw just how packed the substrate was with dwarf woodlice.... All thanks to the substrate bucket method I use which allows the inverts to get established even before the sub goes into a new viv.

I know that a few folks in the US went to serious lengths studdying rainforest soils etc, and have had good success with clay. All that I am saying here is that mine have been doing just fine without it.  My bribri are especially prolific, but then they take mels straight out of the water....:lol2:


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I have spent some time reading about clay, pricing it up and looking at alternatives. 

I looked at ada amazonia

ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia 9Ltr > ADA Amano Plantcare > Plantcare & CO<sub>2</sub> > Tropical Aquarium > Home > Aquajardin Limited

And fluval stratum

http://www.amazon.co.uk/12685-Fluva...qid=1391185109&sr=8-1&keywords=fluval+stratum

And then other organics, like peat plates and plain old ABG.

I think I have made a decision though.

Akadama bonsai soil
14 Litres Japanese Akadama Bonsai soil

I may blend this with the akadama "soft" which has a similar consistency when wetted to the clay sub's made by pumilo. The stuff I linked is pretty much identical to what they refer to as turface in the states. 

I think if I go a layer of hard soil then a layer of soft it will do as good job. I will wet the soil through with calcium rich water and hopefully this will kind of bind to the soft soil but as the soil is soft, small particles will attatch to the isos and springs and be eaten by the frogs. 

If not, it will still be as great free draining mineral based sub that won't turn into an organic slurry. :lol2:


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