# Leopard gecko substrate: sand or not to sand?



## henward

Ok, in the US, there is a massive arguament, that NEVER SAND, this WILL kill the gecko etc.
now, i find this hard to belive, i have had bearded dragons (australian) and since a baby i used sandy crushed rock types of substrate, very small, and no problems. in the wild, these animals encounter all sorts of substrate.
Now, i need a second opinion from a different continent lol

Sand? 
Bark?
stones? 

why i ask is because i want a enclosure that actually looks natural.
i mean bloody paper towels and carpet looks like a hospital !!
its ugly
but if i have to then i hav eto
theres gonna be an alternative.

maybe rocks and stones to cover the entire bottom of the enclosure then fill up the small gaps with a little sand?
or bark would be easy?
bare glass? whats the difference with bare glass and tiles? they use tiles in the US.


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## Reece

fair enough newspaper looks horrible, but id rather it look crap than have a dead pet on my hands. i wouldnt use any substrate... but thats just me. tiles seem good, alot of people use them. i just wouldnt really risk the impaction thing. unless they are fully grown i would just use paper or something.


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## Misswhippy

Don't use sand basically.My leo came from the shop with an impaction from sand and many many others do too.

Use something like paper towels or newspaper in the mean time and then make a desert rock build (there are loads of examples on this forum) so you can eventually have something better looking than paper and have happy healthy pets


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## loulovespat

well i use sand for my gecko, its some sort of calium sand,so if he does swallow some its jst givin him so calium


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## Misswhippy

loulovespat said:


> well i use sand for my gecko, its some sort of calium sand,so if he does swallow some its jst givin him so calium


Are you kidding?That's the stuff most likely to cause impaction and what caused mine from the blinkin shop!!!

It isn't digestable like they say it is.The fact it has calcium in it just encourages them to lick it more....get rid of it,use paper and put a milk bottle lid of calcium in for them. They will eat calcium if they need it...so if they are short they will eat the sand and quite likely get ill


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## SleepyD

henward said:


> now, i find this hard to belive,


up to you ~ some people don't believe what calci sand can or may do until or unless it happens to them; others prefer not to take the risk ~ personally I prefer using lino, tiles, kitchen roll etc which aside from being easy to clean also don't have the added problem of bacterial build-up that loose substrates may have and I don't have to worry about either acute or chronic impaction 


loulovespat said:


> well i use sand for my gecko, its some sort of calium sand,so if he does swallow some its jst givin him so calium


there's plenty of threads regarding impaction and calci sand; some shops now refuse to sell it ~ one example is Pet Zoo Pet Zoo ~ and even a few vets now recognise the problems and don't recommend it.


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## chondro13

This is a massive debate on here - the bottom line is, in the wild they live on rocky compacted surfaces - NOT loose substrate. 

If you keep them on sand/calci sand/woodchips in captivity (especially when their young) they could get impaction and they could die. Whichever way you look at it there is a risk.

IMO the best substrate is kitchen roll. But, like you i hated the look of it. So i spent a week making this: which is impaction free, and looks considerably better... maybe that solves your problem?


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## cooljules

me a mix of sand/pebbles/stones/rocks, have for over 10 years


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## Galaxy Girl

i would personally not take the risk of keeping them on sand. all of mine are on lino at the mo, untill i finish pinching chondro's idea!! coz that looks amazing! just gotta get the grout!


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## Mush

i would NEVER EVER use sand!!!!!

we got a little leo whose proved that sand is bad due to the fact hes pooing the stuff!!!

Theyre not on it in the wild so why give it in captivity???

I just dont get why people use it!!!

if you dont like the look of it use something like slate tiles which look nice!!


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## stuart89

Don't use sand at all, its no good for them, not even the magic Calci-sand thats one of the biggest farce's ever. Pure bull:censor:.

Whereas they may encounter sand in the wild, they are not on it for their entire lives, so the sand ingested is in very small amounts, unlikely to cause problems. But to be on it for 10+ years and eating it daily will cause problems and thats all there is to it. 

Calci sand is just like normal sand.


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## Ally

henward said:


> maybe rocks and stones to cover the entire bottom of the enclosure then fill up the small gaps with a little sand?


This is a pretty good idea, I know HadesDragons on here trialled something similar with his Beardies and found it to work ok. Slate would give a great base and a bit of sand to fill the gaps would look great and reduce the risk of them eating it - there's loose bits in the wild too!

I personally use sand (palysand, never calci sand) or paper for all of mine, sand only with adults. Personally I have never had a well supplimented leo eat sand (I check the poo every few weeks just to make sure) and never any impaction problems.
A leo that is not supplimented properly will activley eat sand, and often well supplimeted adults that didn't have such a good regieme when babies will also do it. I have one that I bought as a youngster that had slight mbd when I got it, that one cannot be trusted with sand. All of my own babies are fine with it once they get older.
I have a pot of calcium with every one of my leos and vitamin dust the food regularly, I believe this prevents sand eating.

In the end it's up to you, give it a go, keep a very close eye on them, check their poo for evidence of eating sand and be willing to change it with little notice if you notice anything amiss.


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## Ssthisto

henward said:


> maybe rocks and stones to cover the entire bottom of the enclosure then fill up the small gaps with a little sand?


That's probably the closest to natural leopard gecko of the options you've described.

"Hardpan" desert is like natural concrete - loose sand collects in the hollows where wind's blown it, but that's about it.


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## cooljules

Ally said:


> This is a pretty good idea, I know HadesDragons on here trialled something similar with his Beardies and found it to work ok. Slate would give a great base and a bit of sand to fill the gaps would look great and reduce the risk of them eating it - there's loose bits in the wild too!
> 
> I personally use sand (palysand, never calci sand) or paper for all of mine, sand only with adults. Personally I have never had a well supplimented leo eat sand (I check the poo every few weeks just to make sure) and never any impaction problems.
> A leo that is not supplimented properly will activley eat sand, and often well supplimeted adults that didn't have such a good regieme when babies will also do it. I have one that I bought as a youngster that had slight mbd when I got it, that one cannot be trusted with sand. All of my own babies are fine with it once they get older.
> I have a pot of calcium with every one of my leos and vitamin dust the food regularly, I believe this prevents sand eating.
> 
> In the end it's up to you, give it a go, keep a very close eye on them, check their poo for evidence of eating sand and be willing to change it with little notice if you notice anything amiss.


ooooooo
the anti sand brigade now think you a nastly lep killer, using sand!

guess that makes 2 of us then!

(plus a respected breeder for almost 30 years, and uses sand and never lost one)


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## cooljules

stuart89 said:


> Don't use sand at all, its no good for them, not even the magic Calci-sand thats one of the biggest farce's ever. Pure bull:censor:.
> 
> Whereas they may encounter sand in the wild, they are not on it for their entire lives, so the sand ingested is in very small amounts, unlikely to cause problems. But to be on it for 10+ years and eating it daily will cause problems and thats all there is to it.
> 
> Calci sand is just like normal sand.


never seen a lep gex eat sand everyday.....and kept for over 10 years the same ones


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## Ally

cooljules said:


> ooooooo
> the anti sand brigade now think you a nastly lep killer, using sand!
> 
> guess that makes 2 of us then!
> 
> (plus a respected breeder for almost 30 years, and uses sand and never lost one)


Yup! I care not... I know my leos are fantastic!



cooljules said:


> never seen a lep gex eat sand everyday.....and kept for over 10 years the same ones


The only exception I have found is when they are undersupplimented, or raised without enough calcium from hatching.
I do have one or two who cannot ever be trusted.


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## spend_day

henward said:


> these animals encounter all sorts of substrate.
> Now, i need a second opinion from a different continent lol


 From what I’ve of leo’s/beardies in the wild they don’t live on just one substrate with no relief, so there is a bit of sand around it doesnt mean that living on deep sand 24/7 wont lead to issues, this isnt a one day its ok then it sees some sand and its dead kinda problem its something that builds up over a period of time, and alot of the area they thrive in are hard rock deserts yes maybe little pockets of sand or loose substrate here and there but not everywhere 100% of the time only a small/midium amount some of the time. 

Impaction is a risk it wont happen 100% of the time but i is quite a common and reoccurring issue, and with risks if i think they can be avoided i avoid them. 

P.s. this is just my opinion i know people feel otherwise and i accept that i just stating where i stand on the matter, i dont keep any leo's (yet) but its my general feeling about how i keep any animal


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## cooljules

Ally said:


> Yup! I care not... I know my leos are fantastic!
> 
> 
> 
> The only exception I have found is when they are undersupplimented, or raised without enough calcium from hatching.
> I do have one or two who cannot ever be trusted.


yup on the last bit....

what i really hate is, 99% of those who keep on newspaper, bog roll, kitchen roll, have never ACTUALLY tried it...its what others have said, and i bet they never tried it either....or those that told them etc etc.

sort of 'im staying in this cave, cos i dont want to go over the hill'

lots of mistakes have been made in herping since it started, its how things are learnt....i know i have made mistakes, and i will admit that, but i wont say 1 thing is good or bad until i have tried it myself


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## cooljules

spend_day said:


> yes but they arent forced to live on just one substrate with no relief, so there is a bit of sand around it doesnt mean that living on deep sand 24/7 wont lead to issues, this isnt a one day its ok then it sees some sand and its dead kinda problem its something that builds up over a period of time, and alot of the area they thrive in are hard rock deserts yes maybe little pockets of sand or loose substrate here and there but not everywhere 100% of the time only a small amount some of the time.
> 
> Impaction is a risk it wont happen 100% of the time but i is quite a common and reoccuring issue, and its an easily avoided risk. With my pets if i can avoid a risk i do some people think differently but imho i dont take chances with my pets.


come off it, its not common, or a re occuring issue....

this is how i keep mine...its with a spot light, never a heat mat for over 10 years!


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## cooljules

spend_day said:


> yes but they arent forced to live on just one substrate with no relief, so there is a bit of sand around it doesnt mean that living on deep sand 24/7 wont lead to issues, this isnt a one day its ok then it sees some sand and its dead kinda problem its something that builds up over a period of time, and alot of the area they thrive in are hard rock deserts yes maybe little pockets of sand or loose substrate here and there but not everywhere 100% of the time only a small amount some of the time.
> 
> Impaction is a risk it wont happen 100% of the time but i is quite a common and reoccuring issue, and with risks if i think they can be avoided i avoid them.
> 
> P.s. this is just my oppioin i know people feel otherwise and i accept that i just stating where i stand on the matter, i dont keep any leo's (yet) but its my general feeling about how i keep any animal



you said you dont keep them, yet say you wont etc from what other people have said....did i tell you the sun wont be there next week?


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## Ally

cooljules said:


> lots of mistakes have been made in herping since it started, its how things are learnt....i know i have made mistakes, and i will admit that, but i wont say 1 thing is good or bad until i have tried it myself


Here here!

I will always give something a go as long as it's not going to immediatley and obviously detrimental to the animal in question. Otherwise, how do I know for sure?


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## spend_day

cooljules said:


> yup on the last bit....
> 
> what i really hate is, 99% of those who keep on newspaper, bog roll, kitchen roll, have never ACTUALLY tried it...its what others have said, and i bet they never tried it either....or those that told them etc etc.
> 
> sort of 'im staying in this cave, cos i dont want to go over the hill'
> 
> lots of mistakes have been made in herping since it started, its how things are learnt....i know i have made mistakes, and i will admit that, but i wont say 1 thing is good or bad until i have tried it myself




so your saying, other people advice and experience dont matter, its better to give something a go and harm your animal than do something with minimal risk and have a safe animal?



Ally said:


> Here here!
> 
> I will always give something a go as long as it's not going to immediatley and obviously detrimental to the animal in question. Otherwise, how do I know for sure?


really? i have a question, if your set up works, your animals are healthy and there is currently minimal risk to your animals why change, this isnt a dig (honest) i just want to know why change things.



cooljules said:


> you said you dont keep them, yet say you wont etc from what other people have said....did i tell you the sun wont be there next week?


Yes people i trust have said solid substrate minmised risks to a leopard geckos health so if i get a leo i will be keeping them on solid substrate.


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## loulovespat

really!!! the pet shop told me about the sand, oh god! wot a con!!


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## spend_day

Look you cannot deny there is a a risk of impaction (feel free to tell me it doesnt exisit its an alien/tempalar/masonic conspiracy started by the space nazi's) how ever small, (MY VIEW)I try to keep my animals with the minimum of risks to there health while they remain stress free, you may feel the benefits out weight the risks I dont its my opinion.


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## cooljules

spend_day said:


> so your saying, other people advice and experience dont matter, its better to give something a go and harm your animal than do something with minimal risk and have a safe animal?
> 
> 
> really? i have a question, if your set up works, your animals are healthy and there is currently minimal risk to your animals why change, this isnt a dig (honest) i just want to know why change things.



anyone can read a book and be on the safe side....you literally really learn nothing

example, someone here gives advice about BD's, the temps, the size of the viv, the uv etc....but when it comes to a diff question, they cant....where i can, where i have tried things, where it works, where it doesnt, same with my lep gex, same with my tokays, same with my Igs, same with my....6 types of snakes.

i replicate as close as i can, to the wild....

i have no interest in keeping a lep gex on paper or tile...(tiles, i can tolerate to a extent)

why do you bother going outside? why not learn more about your animal...

i have kept certain animals in ways that are big no no's, perfectly fine...and i as frauned upon, until a v v v v v v vwell respected herper in the world tried a experiment, and it worked fine (with the right conditions, and yes its to do with lep gex!) i have mixed lep gex fine, with another specie of gex...and i even mixed them fine wit BD's, but with a abosute huge viv (half a room size) with huge huge sand tunnels etc. 

Doe experiments work for everyone? no, but to say something is wrong, without trying it, and only from word of mouth (like the mass dieing of lep gex from sand impaction!)

and for those of you, who decide to try sand for the 1st time (or a mix of pebbles, eco earth, stones, rocks like me) the gex will lick and test the new substrate


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## cooljules

spend_day said:


> Look you cannot deny there is a a risk of impaction (feel free to tell me it doesnt exisit its an alien/tempalar/masonic conspiracy started by the space nazi's) how ever small, (MY VIEW)I try to keep my animals with the minimum of risks to there health while they remain stress free, you may feel the benefits out weight the risks I dont its my opinion.


then keep your animals in a sterile, boring enclosure...and i will keep mine the way i do. and i also make my animals hunt for there food, not just given to them


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## cooljules

loulovespat said:


> really!!! the pet shop told me about the sand, oh god! wot a con!!


which shop?


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## spend_day

cooljules said:


> then keep your animals in a sterile, boring enclosure...and i will keep mine the way i do. and i also make my animals hunt for there food, not just given to them


my animals hunt for there's, i remove uneaten food but i dont tong feed. when u say boring, and this is a real question, do you mean boring for humans (to look at) or boring for the animals in question.


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## cooljules

spend_day said:


> my animals hunt for there's, i remove uneaten food but i dont tong feed. when u say boring, and this is a real question, do you mean boring for humans (to look at) or boring for the animals in question.


i dont remove uneaten food, as i have lots of uneaven rock slabs and crevices so the bigs hide there so the lep gex have to hunt them out, stick there heads in the gaps etc and generally look for the food...only the odd crix runs accross infront of the gex...

of course i keep a check on them, make sure not tons of food still left etc. but rather than a viv with paper on the floor, my crix hide and do what crix do so i make the lep gex hunt and work for there food (apart from mealis which sink under the stones and pebbles etc)


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## Ally

spend_day said:


> really? i have a question, if your set up works, your animals are healthy and there is currently minimal risk to your animals why change, this isnt a dig (honest) i just want to know why change things.


I'm not planning on changing anything as I have found out myself what workes very well for me and my animals.

I'm just not a believer, if it can't be proven with hard solid evidence then I'll either not believe it or feel the need to try it myself - that goes for anything in life!
I have common sense - if someone told me that Leos would live in 24" of water, then I'd not go and try it. But if someone said that a Leo wouldn't eat a bluebottle fly, I'd go catch one and see for myself!


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## Ally

cooljules said:


> until a v v v v v v vwell respected herper in the world tried a experiment, and it worked fine (with the right conditions, and yes its to do with lep gex!)


I think I know the one you mean, a very fascinating study indeed.


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## chondro13

I think this thread has some relevant points which i do agree with.

For the gecko's quality of life - being kept on paper or lino is not exactly thrilling for them or looking good for us! But personally where there is a risk (and it has been proven) that a gecko CAN eat loose substrates and CAN die from it - personally its a risk id never take. Hence making fake rock backgrounds - i think these are more natural than being kept on sand (which they are not in the wild) and its risk-free. Who can argue with that?


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## R0NST3R

How long till this gets over heated and closed?

Place you bets now!!!!!

I personally wont use any loose substrate. The main 2 reasons are 

1. Impaction risk, I know it's a ver low risk but I don't wanna have to pay out like £50 at the vets to try sort it out when I could of just avoided it in the first place. 

2. I have 19 Leopard Geckos to clean out, and the substrates I use (News paper and lino) make it a lot easier to clean them out.


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## spend_day

cooljules said:


> anyone can read a book and be on the safe side....you literally really learn nothing
> 
> example, someone here gives advice about BD's, the temps, the size of the viv, the uv etc....but when it comes to a diff question, they cant....where i can, where i have tried things, where it works, where it doesnt, same with my lep gex, same with my tokays, same with my Igs, same with my....6 types of snakes.
> 
> i replicate as close as i can, to the wild....
> 
> i have no interest in keeping a lep gex on paper or tile...(tiles, i can tolerate to a extent)
> 
> why do you bother going outside? why not learn more about your animal...
> 
> i have kept certain animals in ways that are big no no's, perfectly fine...and i as frauned upon, until a v v v v v v vwell respected herper in the world tried a experiment, and it worked fine (with the right conditions, and yes its to do with lep gex!) i have mixed lep gex fine, with another specie of gex...and i even mixed them fine wit BD's, but with a abosute huge viv (half a room size) with huge huge sand tunnels etc.
> 
> Doe experiments work for everyone? no, but to say something is wrong, without trying it, and only from word of mouth (like the mass dieing of lep gex from sand impaction!)
> 
> and for those of you, who decide to try sand for the 1st time (or a mix of pebbles, eco earth, stones, rocks like me) the gex will lick and test the new substrate


 I agree at some point some1 should take a risk, otherwise things wouldn’t move on BUT the person who asked about didnt seem like someone with lots of experience, otherwise they would probably know the nuances of the substrate debate, do you really want some1 with the first leo/beardie/whateva experimenting I would advise they stick to the safe stuff or at least adivse there are risks involved to there choices and explain what the risks are and tell them to go for something like a large rocks with sand in the gaps kinda thing rather than full sand.


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## GlasgowGecko

So it is here again, and the same posts with good and bad information come up, and people will generally believe those who shout the loudest.

It shocks me that so much factual evidence (not hearsay and anecdotal) gets ignored every time this subject is raised.

So, for that reason I will bring up a few points:
- Particulate substrate has been found in the stomach of all wild caught animals in numerous scientific studies on leopard geckos (mainly unpublished personal comm. with collector). This means they will consume substrate naturally. This is NOT the same as being impacted!
- There appears to be a high occurrence of impaction, why? The truth here is that this count is artificially high, people on this forum will 'diagnose' impaction when an animal is kept on any loose substrate without any veterinary knowledge, or even seeing the animal. The owner then tells everyone they had an animal with impaction. In truth they probably didn't.
- Where does the cotton wool treatment end? Do you have any terrain items in the tank higher than the animals shoulder height? As falling from this item could cause bodily damage... Do you allow your animals to mate? As bites and skin damage are very frequent... I could go on and on with these examples.

For me an important message here is what is the underlying cause of them eating the substrate. 

Andy


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## cooljules

Ally said:


> I think I know the one you mean, a very fascinating study indeed.


another point it
People have asked, can they keep a baby Ig, with a adult, Ig, all aid no, the big one would kill the little one....yes none of these tried it...

i said maybe, with caution and prepare for it to work or not...and i got slated.

then i said, i was doing this 10 years (got fotos to prove, a baby upto adult hood raised with the other adult).....

i mentioned this, to a Ig keeper (i didnt know this, it was in general) whod said he had been doing this, since the 80's but kept it quiet....he also kept other things the way you would get slated on here, without problems, or if with problems, could do something about it....hes also the 1st person people goto for advice, and if he doesnt know it, then not many do..being a herper of everything almost since the 70's, before the internet, before books (good) etc

yeah things change, like Igs eating bugs, like i used too in the 90's where it was seen as fine at juvi's

its like people who keep the snake temps 24/7 the same, i dont, never have....same goes for lep gex etc. 

people dont want to try things, they want the simplist thing, thinking there being kind to the animals (like the prat said he didnt want his snakes to be cold at night, cos they would be upset!!)

i dont expect people to do daft things, i just wish they would listen and at least think....

im fed up of putting up my fotos of enclosure of sand/eco earth/pebbles/stones/rocks/plants etc that i keep my lep gex in...and everyone going wow its amazing...they must be busy lep gex etc...then get slated from the 'we love kitchen roll brigade'

i keep as close as i can, without taking big risks, but that doesnt mean i have to use bog roll, to me its lazy, at least go for slate/tiles and spend a few quick making rock faces or burrows...


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## cooljules

R0NST3R said:


> How long till this gets over heated and closed?
> 
> Place you bets now!!!!!
> 
> I personally wont use any loose substrate. The main 2 reasons are
> 
> 1. Impaction risk, I know it's a ver low risk but I don't wanna have to pay out like £50 at the vets to try sort it out when I could of just avoided it in the first place.
> 
> 2. I have 19 Leopard Geckos to clean out, and the substrates I use (News paper and lino) make it a lot easier to clean them out.


and i bet your gex love you for it


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## cooljules

spend_day said:


> I agree at some point some1 should take a risk, otherwise things wouldn’t move on BUT the person who asked about didnt seem like someone with lots of experience, otherwise they would probably know the nuances of the substrate debate, do you really want some1 with the first leo/beardie/whateva experimenting I would advise they stick to the safe stuff or at least adivse there are risks involved to there choices and explain what the risks are and tell them to go for something like a large rocks with sand in the gaps kinda thing rather than full sand.


if everyone did the simple, then no one would learn....or ask questions.


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## cooljules

GlasgowGecko said:


> So it is here again, and the same posts with good and bad information come up, and people will generally believe those who shout the loudest.
> 
> It shocks me that so much factual evidence (not hearsay and anecdotal) gets ignored every time this subject is raised.
> 
> So, for that reason I will bring up a few points:
> - Particulate substrate has been found in the stomach of all wild caught animals in numerous scientific studies on leopard geckos (mainly unpublished personal comm. with collector). This means they will consume substrate naturally. This is NOT the same as being impacted!
> - There appears to be a high occurrence of impaction, why? The truth here is that this count is artificially high, people on this forum will 'diagnose' impaction when an animal is kept on any loose substrate without any veterinary knowledge, or even seeing the animal. The owner then tells everyone they had an animal with impaction. In truth they probably didn't.
> - Where does the cotton wool treatment end? Do you have any terrain items in the tank higher than the animals shoulder height? As falling from this item could cause bodily damage... Do you allow your animals to mate? As bites and skin damage are very frequent... I could go on and on with these examples.
> 
> For me an important message here is what is the underlying cause of them eating the substrate.
> 
> Andy


good points...

i killed a lep gex over 10 years ago, about 12, it fell from a height of 4' onto a hard suface...well actually it broke its back..so i learnt softer surface and not such a height they can fall...yes they love to climb, and will fall.

mine come up at night, once the lights are off, and sit on the hot rocks which are under the spot light, as it retains heat, just like they do in the wild..

your right, i can think of only 2 confirmed deaths from impaction from HUNDREDS that people just to the conclusion of on here, and that was calcisand and suffering from deficincy to start


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## spend_day

cooljules said:


> i keep as close as i can, without taking big risks, but that doesnt mean i have to use bog roll, to me its lazy, at least go for slate/tiles and spend a few quick making rock faces or burrows...


have to agree

I dont know if it laziness or lack of imagination honestly i think i could make a safe (to even my safety obsessed standards) viv while still being nice to look at.


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## R0NST3R

cooljules said:


> and i bet your gex love you for it


Sarcism, the lowest form of witt!!! 

The substrate may look ugly but I do put other things in there for them to "explore" Cork bark, plants, few bit's of slate/bricks for them to climb over and go under.

I aint gonna sit here and insult people saying "sand is bad get them off it". It's the keepers choice. I also aint gonna sit here and say "your leo WILL get impaction" as it's not true, it's just a risk.

I did have a beardy that showed signs of it being impacted, ate like a horse, didn't poop for a couple of weeks. Gave it a nice warm bath and it pooped the day after, with traces of sand. I also had a beardy last year that had loads of traces of sand in her poop.


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## spend_day

cooljules said:


> if everyone did the simple, then no one would learn....or ask questions.


i would say inquisitiveness is no so easily dismissed once some people have time to look and learn about there animal/s then i think they will start to ask the whys and what ifs but to start off i would still say a safe well know set-up is better for anyone


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## cooljules

R0NST3R said:


> Sarcism, the lowest form of witt!!!
> 
> The substrate may look ugly but I do put other things in there for them to "explore" Cork bark, plants, few bit's of slate/bricks for them to climb over and go under.
> 
> I aint gonna sit here and insult people saying "sand is bad get them off it". It's the keepers choice. I also aint gonna sit here and say "your leo WILL get impaction" as it's not true, it's just a risk.
> 
> I did have a beardy that showed signs of it being impacted, ate like a horse, didn't poop for a couple of weeks. Gave it a nice warm bath and it pooped the day after, with traces of sand. I also had a beardy last year that had loads of traces of sand in her poop.


fair enough, but im so fed up of people saying paper is the only safe thing, and any lep gex kept on sand etc with die of impaction..

BD's, i have a load around me now, all kept on sand and stones etc...and yes your right, esp as they chase food etc (hence i use mostly stones/pebbles that dont get gobbled up)

again its the old debate...but to dismiss it, just cos your mate jonnys auntie said his couson bob said his dead uncle said they die from impaction ec anoys me...


----------



## cooljules

spend_day said:


> i would say inquisitiveness is no so easily dismissed once some people have time to look and learn about there animal/s then i think they will start to ask the whys and what ifs but to start off i would still say a safe well know set-up is better for anyone


i learnt in the mid 90's, the hard way, no internet or books etc. so i made mistakes...but got there in the end, and inbetween expiremented.

if i won the lottery, i would have a huge room for each...like snapsnots of the wild...not a huge room with paper and heat mats etc.


----------



## loulovespat

*should i have two geckos??*

hi, iv got a 3month old leopard gecko, dont know the sex of it yet...should i be able to sex it that young??anyway...iv got a 33"ince tank and it just seems a bit big for just one gecko, do you think i should get another one??:hmm:


----------



## loulovespat

i didint realize that sand could harm them cause iv got all my advice off of pet shops, i thought using calium sand would be good for them... but my gecko dont eat the sand anyway


----------



## cooljules

loulovespat said:


> i didint realize that sand could harm them cause iv got all my advice off of pet shops, i thought using calium sand would be good for them... but my gecko dont eat the sand anyway


calcium sand is agreed generally to be the worst thing it the world just about..

play sand/chinchilla sand is what is used normally.

i will let experts on calci sand explain...i have never used it myself


----------



## Ssthisto

Calcium sand ... well, you can do a simple experiment at home to find out WHY it's bad for small reptiles.

Get a box of Tums or Rennies (these are made of calcium carbonate).
Then get a glass half-full of vinegar (acidic like your stomach, but weaker).

Crumble one of the Tums into the vinegar. It will foam and cause a chemical reaction that converts the calcium and acid into carbon dioxide and water. Most, if not all, of the tablet should dissolve. Now crumble another into it. The chemical reaction that dissolves the granules of calcium carbonate will be less pronounced because the acid's been diluted with water.

Eventually you'll get to a point where you've got nearly all water and no acid left - and lots of leftover calcium carbonate sitting in the bottom of the glass.

Now imagine a tiny little gecko's belly - and particularly a gecko that IS eating calcium sand. A little bit will dissolve and is safe. A LOT will denature the acid in the stomach and start building up as undigestible grit - and reasonably large angular particles of it at that. And because your gecko is housed on the calcium sand, you can't control how much it's dosing itself with.

Playsand is better - at least silicon dioxide does not denature the stomach acid - although I personally will never house another leopard gecko on sand of any type after having lost one of my adult females to impaction.


----------



## loulovespat

i dont see why people have to be so rude , at the end of the day its my first gecko and i got advised to use calium sand and so i did so why is that my fault and i will change the sand now but thats all people have to say not have ago...iv done a good job bringing my gecko up so far and it is happy and eating and drinking well... we should be giving people support not abuse


----------



## cooljules

loulovespat said:


> i dont see why people have to be so rude , at the end of the day its my first gecko and i got advised to use calium sand and so i did so why is that my fault and i will change the sand now but thats all people have to say not have ago...iv done a good job bringing my gecko up so far and it is happy and eating and drinking well... we should be giving people support not abuse


well i wasnt having a go (more at the long term paper keeps, who say every gex will die on sand etc)

show us some fotos...be cool, and no one would have a go if its not perfect..your learning, and asking questions which is the good thing!


----------



## GlasgowGecko

Ssthisto said:


> Calcium sand ... well, you can do a simple experiment at home to find out WHY it's bad for small reptiles.
> 
> Get a box of Tums or Rennies (these are made of calcium carbonate).
> Then get a glass half-full of vinegar (acidic like your stomach, but weaker).
> 
> Crumble one of the Tums into the vinegar. It will foam and cause a chemical reaction that converts the calcium and acid into carbon dioxide and water. Most, if not all, of the tablet should dissolve. Now crumble another into it. The chemical reaction that dissolves the granules of calcium carbonate will be less pronounced because the acid's been diluted with water.
> 
> Eventually you'll get to a point where you've got nearly all water and no acid left - and lots of leftover calcium carbonate sitting in the bottom of the glass.
> 
> Now imagine a tiny little gecko's belly - and particularly a gecko that IS eating calcium sand. A little bit will dissolve and is safe. A LOT will denature the acid in the stomach and start building up as undigestible grit - and reasonably large angular particles of it at that. And because your gecko is housed on the calcium sand, you can't control how much it's dosing itself with.
> 
> Playsand is better - at least silicon dioxide does not denature the stomach acid - although I personally will never house another leopard gecko on sand of any type after having lost one of my adult females to impaction.


While I agree with the points you have made, it is not completely accurate. The stomach and glass are only comparable for a single snap shot of time. Stomachs in general are complicated, but to reduce it into simple terms, they have the ability to empty and refill both the chemistry component and the ingested component (the glass does not), they also employ agitation as a mechanism for mechanical breakdown by contracting the walls, again the glass does not.
So the important question becomes, does this make a difference? The simple answer is yes it does, the stomach IS capable of breakdown of calci sand. BUT it is dependent on the quantity consumed, and the time spent under digestion.

Animals which consume large amounts of substrate often have an underlying issue causing them to do so (not exclusively but in the majority of cases I have encountered).

Andy


----------



## loulovespat

cooljules said:


> which shop?


 the one up chatham


----------



## loulovespat

cooljules said:


> well i wasnt having a go (more at the long term paper keeps, who say every gex will die on sand etc)
> 
> show us some fotos...be cool, and no one would have a go if its not perfect..your learning, and asking questions which is the good thing!


 i didnt mean you...sorry lol


----------



## Ssthisto

loulovespat said:


> i dont see why people have to be so rude ....we should be giving people support not abuse


I don't see anywhere where ANYONE has abused anyone else or been rude....?

GlasgowGecko: You do have a very good point, and I was oversimplifying. As I said, I don't personally think any non-dunes lizard should be kept in conditions in captivity that mimic sand dunes (half an inch of loose sand) - and very few "desert" lizards kept in captivity are actually dunes species.


----------



## cooljules

loulovespat said:


> i didnt mean you...sorry lol


ah ok...im good at getting into arguements and upsetting people (even been known to make people cry!!!) without trying too


----------



## loulovespat

i did have sort of little rocky sand, would that be better for it?? iv got a picture of that sand when i was useing that sand at the begging before i changed to calium sand that i thought would be better because the sand heats up quick


----------



## cooljules

Ssthisto said:


> I don't see anywhere where ANYONE has abused anyone else or been rude....?
> 
> GlasgowGecko: You do have a very good point, and I was oversimplifying. As I said, I don't personally think any non-dunes lizard should be kept in conditions in captivity that mimic sand dunes (half an inch of loose sand) - and very few "desert" lizards kept in captivity are actually dunes species.


yes, theres a differance between arid and desert...i try to aim for dry, dusty, dry sandy hard soily sort of substrate...when i think of a good name for "dry, dusty, dry sandy hard soily" i will let you know!:2thumb:


----------



## Ally

cooljules said:


> yes, theres a differance between arid and desert...i try to aim for dry, dusty, dry sandy hard soily sort of substrate...when i think of a good name for "dry, dusty, dry sandy hard soily" i will let you know!:2thumb:


I also find shallow sand with rocks works best, they flounder if it's too deep!

(I'll have a go at thinking of a name for it too - would save a lot of explaining!)


----------



## loulovespat

cooljules said:


> ah ok...im good at getting into arguements and upsetting people (even been known to make people cry!!!) without trying too


 lol. im just knew and people are just digging at me about the sand thing and iv been getting so much advice off people before i got the gecko so i knew what i was doing and now iv had the gecko for about 2monthes and i come on here and people are telling me im doing wrong and now im worried about the gecko being in that sand but the gecko aint pooing sand so is that a good thing ?? oh an another thing my geckos 3months old is it two young to find what sex it is??


----------



## cooljules

loulovespat said:


> lol. im just knew and people are just digging at me about the sand thing and iv been getting so much advice off people before i got the gecko so i knew what i was doing and now iv had the gecko for about 2monthes and i come on here and people are telling me im doing wrong and now im worried about the gecko being in that sand but the gecko aint pooing sand so is that a good thing ?? oh an another thing my geckos 3months old is it two young to find what sex it is??


ummm sounds stupid, but in over 10 years, never actually sexed a gex that young, i belive, 6 months is better, 3 months or under with a close up eyepiece...

i can sex adults, but i dont breed etc.


----------



## Ssthisto

loulovespat said:


> i did have sort of little rocky sand, would that be better for it?? iv got a picture of that sand when i was useing that sand at the begging before i changed to calium sand that i thought would be better because the sand heats up quick


Small rocks are less digestible than tiny sand grains.

The description of "mostly rocks with sand in the cracks" is the closest to what would be really natural for leopard geckos.



cooljules said:


> yes, theres a differance between arid and desert...i try to aim for dry, dusty, dry sandy hard soily sort of substrate...when i think of a good name for "dry, dusty, dry sandy hard soily" i will let you know!:2thumb:


It's called "Hardpan". 

Also called "concrete" if you make it artificially 

I grew up in hardpan desert where the only loose sand was in arroyo washes where it'd come down out of the mountains; I never found lizards in that stuff, although I would quite often find them on rocks and under brush.


----------



## GlasgowGecko

Ssthisto said:


> GlasgowGecko: You do have a very good point, and I was oversimplifying. As I said, I don't personally think any non-dunes lizard should be kept in conditions in captivity that mimic sand dunes (half an inch of loose sand) - and very few "desert" lizards kept in captivity are actually dunes species.


Again I agree. There are a great many things we do in captivity that are very different to the conditions the animals would normally encounter. One way to look at it could be this:

- reduced predation risk
- reduced competition for resources
- Plentiful food supply
- Constant climate

These factors (and others) all increase the life expectancy of the individual to many times that of their 'wild' counterparts. A slight to nominal risk of impaction (depending on how you view the "evidence") should still lead to a substantially longer captive life than wild one.

I would also look at other factors causing lizard death in captivity, and would go so far as to say that impaction is NOT one of the top 5 causes of death, but maybe that is just me. I would consider obesity to be much greater cause of reduced life expectancy, although we hear very little about it. I honestly think that the reason this "problem" seems so large is because of wrongly attributed cases.

Andy


----------



## cooljules

GlasgowGecko said:


> Again I agree. There are a great many things we do in captivity that are very different to the conditions the animals would normally encounter. One way to look at it could be this:
> 
> - reduced predation risk
> - reduced competition for resources
> - Plentiful food supply
> - Constant climate
> 
> These factors (and others) all increase the life expectancy of the individual to many times that of their 'wild' counterparts. A slight to nominal risk of impaction (depending on how you view the "evidence") should still lead to a substantially longer captive life than wild one.
> 
> I would also look at other factors causing lizard death in captivity, and would go so far as to say that impaction is NOT one of the top 5 causes of death, but maybe that is just me. I would consider obesity to be much greater cause of reduced life expectancy, although we hear very little about it. I honestly think that the reason this "problem" seems so large is because of wrongly attributed cases.
> 
> Andy


i see really really fat lep gex all the times, just like snakes etc, i keep em mean n lean hence the rocks etc to make them hunt...even mine are a bit fat if im honest..


----------



## loulovespat

cooljules said:


> ummm sounds stupid, but in over 10 years, never actually sexed a gex that young, i belive, 6 months is better, 3 months or under with a close up eyepiece...
> 
> i can sex adults, but i dont breed etc.


 yeah its more easy to sex adults, iv been taught at my college but i just cant seem to sex my baby gecko and iv already decided its a boy lol iv already called him astrol... i was thinking of getting another gecko because of the big tank iv got but i cant unless i can sex this one because iv heard two gecko boys fight... what are two gecko girls like do you know?? a boy and girl can go well cant they??


----------



## cooljules

loulovespat said:


> yeah its more easy to sex adults, iv been taught at my college but i just cant seem to sex my baby gecko and iv already decided its a boy lol iv already called him astrol... i was thinking of getting another gecko because of the big tank iv got but i cant unless i can sex this one because iv heard two gecko boys fight... what are two gecko girls like do you know?? a boy and girl can go well cant they??


all girls usually fine (more over 10 years)

1.1 mmmm.. usually over sex stress, and def not before ready age to breed...

usually 1.2 or 1.3 is best all mating age...even 1.5 is better i did that...but then i had a gay male so it didnt matter hehe


----------



## loulovespat

cooljules said:


> all girls usually fine (more over 10 years)
> 
> 1.1 mmmm.. usually over sex stress, and def not before ready age to breed...
> 
> usually 1.2 or 1.3 is best all mating age...even 1.5 is better i did that...but then i had a gay male so it didnt matter hehe


 lol... so what about putting two together while babys?? when iv sex the gecko ofcourse, so would a girl and boy go alright do you think??


----------



## Ssthisto

cooljules said:


> i see really really fat lep gex all the times, just like snakes etc, i keep em mean n lean hence the rocks etc to make them hunt...even mine are a bit fat if im honest..


I have one female who just will NOT lose weight. We've tried offering her food as rarely as once every two weeks and her weight (and particularly her fat, fat FAT tail) don't change.

Far as it goes for keeping leos on "dunes" substrate when they're not dunes lizards... I would rather keep them on something more like where they come from because I don't see why they should have to trade "appropriate substrate" for "no predation". I can provide both an appropriate substrate AND no predation, therefore I should.

But as I said, part of that is because I *have* lost an adult animal to sand impaction, and I have a biased outlook based on that experience. I think that "no risk" is better than "some risk" for my animals, my collection and the advice I provide.


----------



## cooljules

loulovespat said:


> lol... so what about putting two together while babys?? when iv sex the gecko ofcourse, so would a girl and boy go alright do you think??


not really, cos as soon as the male gets to wanting sex, the female might be too young really (i dont breed, im going on whats right for BD's and other gex i keep)

plus he would hassle and hassle and hassle..etc


----------



## Pieluvspooh

I use slate tiles which look quite good actually! They also hold heat very well, are easy to clean and there is no risk of impaction!:2thumb:


----------



## loulovespat

cooljules said:


> not really, cos as soon as the male gets to wanting sex, the female might be too young really (i dont breed, im going on whats right for BD's and other gex i keep)
> 
> plus he would hassle and hassle and hassle..etc


 ok thanks


----------



## kirsten

for my breeding rack i use lino, as it's free, doesn't cost an arm and a leg to replace like kitchem roll does, it can be sterilised etc. but i do miss having them in a natural set-up, i used to have them in compacted sand/gravel/rocks/live plants with underground hides to mimik the wild as best as i could.

so i have my leo's on a safe convienient substrate, but i have my other reps in natural settings. my cresties have decrastive pebbles to minimise impaction risks, but still looks great, and my water dragon is on eco-eath with a ton of plants/wood/huge water bowl.


----------



## vickylolage

I use sand. Simply because I likes it and their food is in a dish which the mealies cant get out of. Ive never had a problem with sand so I shall continue to use it.

However my babies are kept on kitchen roll!!


----------



## henward

*.*

ok, this is getting heated
like in THE us site, everyone has a opinion
bottomline, i have found that if not all but most lizard care sheets in the internet says you should not use sand...... so this means who ever writes them generalises.


i am gonna put a assortmentof alte, stones, rocks and fill in gaps with CRUSHED ROCK, not sand, i am not using sand, it is crushed river stones that are as fine as sand. its dark in colour.

so suffice to say, only the small gaps will have loose substrate.
i dont intend on using this untill 4 to 6 months old. 

i will put some wood in there, maybe some plants
i will post pics


----------



## Ssthisto

henward said:


> with CRUSHED ROCK, not sand, i am not using sand, it is crushed river stones that are as fine as sand.


I might be very pedantic here, but ....

Crushed stone that's the size of sand grains IS sand - because sand is defined as particles of rock/mineral of a specific size.

I would personally still like to set up a naturalistic hardpan desert enclosure that used a clay/sand/gravel mix to create the natural concrete that you find in this sort of area.


----------



## loulovespat

is wood chip alright to use instead of sand for my gecko??


----------



## R0NST3R

loulovespat said:


> is wood chip alright to use instead of sand for my gecko??


 
NOW you're gonna get it from the anti-loose particals.... 

I don't use loose for mine, and don't care what other people use. BUT I would never advise woodchips imo it's the worse substrate there is.


----------



## loulovespat

R0NST3R said:


> NOW you're gonna get it from the anti-loose particals....
> 
> I don't use loose for mine, and don't care what other people use. BUT I would never advise woodchips imo it's the worse substrate there is.


 really?? whats wrong with it?? what do you think i should use? because hes shreed at the moment as well and i dont want him not to feel happy in his home


----------



## Ssthisto

Large chunks that are small enough to be swallowed are probably worse than sand - they're more likely to get stuck in his guts.


----------



## loulovespat

Ssthisto said:


> Large chunks that are small enough to be swallowed are probably worse than sand - they're more likely to get stuck in his guts.


 so what would you advise?


----------



## chondro13

woodchips are worse as they can get it in their mouth, but much less likely to pass it out the other end. 

at the end of the day the gecko may not eat any and may be fine - but there is still a risk he could die from it. If in any doubt house them on lino or kitchen roll or make a fake background.


----------



## loulovespat

chondro13 said:


> woodchips are worse as they can get it in their mouth, but much less likely to pass it out the other end.
> 
> at the end of the day the gecko may not eat any and may be fine - but there is still a risk he could die from it. If in any doubt house them on lino or kitchen roll or make a fake background.


 the thing is though everyones saying that sand is the worst and so iv just gone out and bought woodchips that one of the pets shops said can be used for geckos and now people are telling me it cant be used,, he seems to love it...other people on here use all kinds of different things like some kind of rocky sand and everyones saying thats bad but it seems like sand that has on the labal that its for geckos and all the sudden everybody says its not..im so confused


----------



## chondro13

loulovespat said:


> the thing is though everyones saying that sand is the worst and so iv just gone out and bought woodchips that one of the pets shops said can be used for geckos and now people are telling me it cant be used,, he seems to love it...other people on here use all kinds of different things like some kind of rocky sand and everyones saying thats bad but it seems like sand that has on the labal that its for geckos and all the sudden everybody says its not..im so confused



Basically - dont listen to petshops. they just want to sell you stuff.

Anything that CAN fit into their mouth - is a bad idea as they COULD eat it and COULD get impacted. Some people do use sand and woodchips but it is still a risk to take.

heres my site: Untitled Page and on there in the care sheet section ive gone into depth about which substrates you can use and why some are better than others depending on wether or not you want to risk loose substrates. Best of luck.


----------



## Ssthisto

loulovespat said:


> so what would you advise?


For safety and ease of cleaning that LOOKS nice I'd use stone tiles - like slate - cut to fit the floor of the viv. 

The "rocky sand" I mention would need to be mixed with clay and very well dried so that it's like a layer of concrete in the bottom of the vivarium - which is quite heavy, along with being difficult to keep clean.


----------



## loulovespat

chondro13 said:


> Basically - dont listen to petshops. they just want to sell you stuff.
> 
> Anything that CAN fit into their mouth - is a bad idea as they COULD eat it and COULD get impacted. Some people do use sand and woodchips but it is still a risk to take.
> 
> heres my site: Untitled Page and on there in the care sheet section ive gone into depth about which substrates you can use and why some are better than others depending on wether or not you want to risk loose substrates. Best of luck.


 ok thanks


----------



## loulovespat

chondro13 said:


> Basically - dont listen to petshops. they just want to sell you stuff.
> 
> Anything that CAN fit into their mouth - is a bad idea as they COULD eat it and COULD get impacted. Some people do use sand and woodchips but it is still a risk to take.
> 
> heres my site: Untitled Page and on there in the care sheet section ive gone into depth about which substrates you can use and why some are better than others depending on wether or not you want to risk loose substrates. Best of luck.


 well on your website youve put you can have woodchips??


----------



## chondro13

loulovespat said:


> well on your website youve put you can have woodchips??



Lol yes - you CAN use woodchips or sand or anything you want!

I did also put there is a risk of impaction and i personally would never do it!

It would be wrong for me to just have put you must only use kitchen roll or lino or fake backgrounds etc because there others out there.

Some are simply safer than others.


----------



## loulovespat

chondro13 said:


> Lol yes - you CAN use woodchips or sand or anything you want!
> 
> I did also put there is a risk of impaction and i personally would never do it!
> 
> It would be wrong for me to just have put you must only use kitchen roll or lino or fake backgrounds etc because there others out there.
> 
> Some are simply safer than others.


well i think anything can be danger to them really


----------



## SleepyD

loulovespat said:


> well i think anything can be danger to them really


 it's a bit like Dock Road or Chat'm high street after dark ..... yeh you could walk along it but you'd need eye's in the back of your head while you did ~ me.. I'd prefer a taxi :whistling2:


----------



## lil05

i think lino looks quite nice .. although not natural .. but if i wanted something more natural id do a fake rock thing like others have.. they look amazing, sure they dont cost much .. easy to spot clean and no impaction risks


----------



## pritc

I use ceramic floor tiles cut to size to fit my vivarium.
From a distance it looks just like sand....


----------



## tokay

henward said:


> Ok, in the US, there is a massive arguament, that NEVER SAND, this WILL kill the gecko etc.
> now, i find this hard to belive, i have had bearded dragons (australian) and since a baby i used sandy crushed rock types of substrate, very small, and no problems. in the wild, these animals encounter all sorts of substrate.
> Now, i need a second opinion from a different continent lol


heres a reason to NEVER USE crappy i mean calci sand....
















and this was removed from the leo that died of impaction 







why risk it?
Leopard Gecko Sand Impaction


----------



## Rodders

You said you want your viv to look naturalistic, sand isnt really part of their natural biology. It's already been said that they live on compacted surfaces.

I've found the perfect solution is either slate & ceramic tile or those homemade rock backgrounds. I got a nice sandy colour cermaic tiles and placed slabs & rocks in the viv to create moe layers. Safe for em and looks pretty decent.


----------



## hollypops

pritc said:


> I use ceramic floor tiles cut to size to fit my vivarium.
> From a distance it looks just like sand....


I think this looks lovely!!!


----------



## JamesJ

For a change weve tried using bird sand paper (that you put in the bottom of a bird cage) We shook all the excess and loose sand off before putting it in, it looks nice and natural and its good for the geckos to rub shed off against without the risk of impactation. Its also quiet a fine grain sand so its not too harsh/rough on the geckos


----------



## Rodders

> For a change weve tried using bird sand paper (that you put in the bottom of a bird cage) We shook all the excess and loose sand off before putting it in, it looks nice and natural and its good for the geckos to rub shed off against without the risk of impactation. Its also quiet a fine grain sand so its not too harsh/rough on the geckos


That's an awesome idea lol :2thumb:


----------



## mscongeniality

The bird sand thing is an awesome idea. 
I take exception to the notion that everyone is just jumping on the don't use sand bandwagon because they heard it somewhere. I had a perfectly well supplemented gecko die of impaction. She had a very voracious appetite and was a very enthusiastic hunter. The vet believed she must have ingested a fair amount when catching locusts. I am not going to kill my geckos because sand looks pretty. Their health comes first. I have seen what it can do. I won't do it again.
Many children who grew up in the 70s had lead based paint on their cots and grew up perfectly healthy, I still wouldn't have painted my baby's crib with it.


----------



## BlackRose

i personally wouldnt use anything but good old kitchen roll. its cheap, holds the warmth, isnt too rough or soft, is easy to replace at cleaning time and doesnt look too bad. I prefer natural setups also, but id rather be safe than sorry. 
Plus when my leo catches locusts in her tank their legs grip onto the kitchen roll sometimes and she has to tug abit giving her jaw some exercise. it never rips off with the bug so she never eats any. plus it disguises any spilt calcium powder when they trample all in it just after you cleaned it out, like mine does.


----------



## xsmithx2

i use sand and there is no problem with my geckos
used sand for over 4 years now with geckos which ive had

breeders use tiles and newspaper for a quick thing an inexpensive

but pet lovers use sand and etc...


----------



## orrimaarrkko

i have just changed over from sand to lino


----------



## Dextersdad

We use sand.

End of.


----------



## CB89

I'm not joining this circus, but i too use sand.


----------



## loulovespat

Dextersdad said:


> We use sand.
> 
> End of.


just thought id ask your advice, iv just changed my sand to wood chips because everyone said sand is the worst thing to use ,, is wood chips alright though??


----------



## Dextersdad

loulovespat said:


> just thought id ask your advice, iv just changed my sand to wood chips because everyone said sand is the worst thing to use ,, is wood chips alright though??


Personally I wouldn't use chips. I've seen a pretty badly distended gut on a leo (so as you could see from the outside). Not nice. It died in the end.

We do use sand but we have a tray in there with calcium powder etc.

Sand is too easily demonized I find. 

We use it and it works out well for us.


----------



## Ssthisto

xsmithx2 said:


> breeders use tiles and newspaper for a quick thing an inexpensive
> 
> but pet lovers use sand and etc...


*Some* pet lovers don't use sand for geckos that don't live on loose sand in the wild - *we* use tiles because tiles more closely replicate what they live on in the wild. Not all deserts are sand dunes, and indeed *most* deserts are not sand dunes.

Does a leopard gecko look like it's adapted to live on loose sand?

It has a big heavy head, a big heavy tail, short stubby toes on all four feet and a comparatively wide body.

By comparison, an actual sand dune lizard looks like this:
Zebra-tailed lizard
LONG toes especially on the hind feet - these act like "snowshoes" and help keep the lizard from sinking in loose sand - they can run quite effectively across the top of it and will actually even run on their hind legs for speed. Long thin tail - nothing weighing them down at the back. Slender, streamlined body, again to keep them from sinking.

Keeping a leopard gecko on a thick layer of loose sand is as "natural" as keeping a bottlenose dolphin in a freshwater pond. Nice idea, but shame about the details.


----------



## philofbof

What about cactus soil? its a mix of dry soil and sand????

Just a thought.


----------



## chondro13

philofbof said:


> What about cactus soil? its a mix of dry soil and sand????
> 
> Just a thought.



its still a loose substrate. Same problems as sand/woodchips/calcisand etc still apply.


----------



## loulovespat

whats the best thing i can use for my gecko then??


----------



## Misswhippy

loulovespat said:


> whats the best thing i can use for my gecko then??


Personally I'd just use kitchen roll or newspaper for now while making a rock build...or you could go for tiles.


----------



## loulovespat

Misswhippy said:


> Personally I'd just use kitchen roll or newspaper for now while making a rock build...or you could go for tiles.


 how do you make a rock build??


----------



## Luke87

its soooo simple! go to poundshop/BnQ/homebase/Wickes or any DIY store, buy some lino tiles, or if you want to spend a little more some ceramic tiles (not the ones that are super smooth or varnished) 

These look good, natural and best of all, SOOOO easy to clean, they pooh u wipe up with tissue, wipe with a wet cloth, then spray with a little disenfectent and let dry (obv dont spray while ur rep is in there )

so lino/ceramic tiles = EASY to clean, Looks good, alot cheaper than buying sand as the tiles last for a lifetime, doesnt run the risk of getting mites in the sand, doesnt run the risk of possible impaction, stays warm and good conductor of heat which is esp good for leos as they absorb the heat from there underside!

To be honest cant see any reason why you want to use sand instead.

hope this helps! Luke

But thats my personal opinion


----------



## Luke87

Also this is my viv and rock effect decor i built for my bearded dragon! doesnt have the tiles in there on this pic 






















And here is a pic of his inside with his new tiles! only £10 to kit out the whole of his viv, and there the fancy thick heavy duty ceramic floor tiles!!












Let me know wot u think yeah!? hope i changed ur mind 

Luke


----------



## loulovespat

Luke87 said:


> its soooo simple! go to poundshop/BnQ/homebase/Wickes or any DIY store, buy some lino tiles, or if you want to spend a little more some ceramic tiles (not the ones that are super smooth or varnished)
> 
> These look good, natural and best of all, SOOOO easy to clean, they pooh u wipe up with tissue, wipe with a wet cloth, then spray with a little disenfectent and let dry (obv dont spray while ur rep is in there )
> 
> so lino/ceramic tiles = EASY to clean, Looks good, alot cheaper than buying sand as the tiles last for a lifetime, doesnt run the risk of getting mites in the sand, doesnt run the risk of possible impaction, stays warm and good conductor of heat which is esp good for leos as they absorb the heat from there underside!
> 
> To be honest cant see any reason why you want to use sand instead.
> 
> hope this helps! Luke
> 
> But thats my personal opinion


 thanks


----------



## LAReptiles

*..*

Hi I wanna make a rock substate how can i make it?


----------



## Luke87

no worries,was my pleasure!

i would prefer to give the solid facts of whats easier and healthier and help someone than flame others for what i beleive in. People need to chill a little i think!


----------



## Luke87

You can buy sheets of polystyrene. then you cut and carv them into the desired shape you want. Litterally anything is possible! With the background i used a small flamethrower to make the wavey rock effect!

Then once you have created the general layout with your polystyrene get your self some tile grout (preferably bathroom one as its waterproof!), with this first add a thin layer, about a thick milkshake/double cream consistency and apply it all over with a brush, leave this to dry over night!

Then add a thicker layer of grout all over leave to dry overnight

Then yes you got it anouther layer and leave overnight.

Now you can go ways from this step you paint it with accrylic paints, OR you can do what i did and buy some sand and adhesive PVA!

With this you cover with the PVA then sprinkle the sand over and allow to dry overnight
Do this again so you have 2 layers of sand and pva.

After the 2nd (final layer) of pva + sand you will have lose sand, so what you do is do one last layer of pva but NO sand and let it set, this covers the sand and seals it for easy wiping and cleaning and prevents any cause of impaction also!!

Let me know if you need to know anything else!

Cheers for showing interest! Luke


----------



## LAReptiles

*..*

How can i clean the poo off of it?


----------



## Luke87

toilet roll to wipe the most of it off, then a damp cloth to wipe it and then just spray with a little reptile friendly disenfectent and let it dry (dont spray while ur herp is in the viv obviously)


----------



## loulovespat

i think newspaper can be a little bit of a danger to them because of the ink


----------



## Ssthisto

The inks they use in modern printing processes are soy-based and nontoxic.


----------



## kayskritters

Don't use sand!! They don't live on it in the wild so dont give it in captivity!

I agree that kitchen roll and newspaper looks crap so I use brown parcel wrapping paper, it looks much better, especially in a wooden viv, and its only about 70p for a massive roll! Only thing is you have to measure and cut it to size, but that isnt really that much trouble to avoid impaction.

Also, CHONDRO13, how did u make that?? It looks fab x


----------



## cooljules

kayskritters said:


> Don't use sand!! They don't live on it in the wild so dont give it in captivity!
> 
> I agree that kitchen roll and newspaper looks crap so I use brown parcel wrapping paper, it looks much better, especially in a wooden viv, and its only about 70p for a massive roll! Only thing is you have to measure and cut it to size, but that isnt really that much trouble to avoid impaction.
> 
> Also, CHONDRO13, how did u make that?? It looks fab x


oh god....another anti sand impaction person....have YOU ever seen it?


----------



## kayskritters

Yes thats y I posted, Ive lost 2 to impaction, one due to calci sand, the other to ultra fine play sand. Next question?......


----------



## elljhitch

Is sand bad for adult beardies as well?


----------



## vickylolage

oh for gods sake!
LIKE IT MATTERS
people are ALWAYS going to disagree on this matter!

If people are happy to keep leos on sand and have no problems leave them to it. If people want to keep them on something else so be it. People who have had no issues with impaction and sand such as myself are happy to continue. Others who unfortunately have suffered this will be against it.

SUCH IS LIFE. Forums are designed for discussion and debate. But this is just petty and immature back biting. Civilised conversation... is it so hard? Apparently!


----------



## kayskritters

I agree. I tried to offer my opinion, to help, from my own experience, and I get called the 'anti-sand brigade'??!! I wont post again on the subject because people cannot accept difference of opinion on the subject. Nevermind, s**t happens eh?! Just enjoy your herps! x


----------



## cooljules

kayskritters said:


> Yes thats y I posted, Ive lost 2 to impaction, one due to calci sand, the other to ultra fine play sand. Next question?......


was a autopsy done? i have never had it in over 10 years and i know a breeder and keeper for 20 years who has never had it, or seen it from a autopsy.

calcisand twice, never play or chinchilla.


----------



## cooljules

elljhitch said:


> Is sand bad for adult beardies as well?


been fine for mine in over 10 years


----------



## kayskritters

Sorry Henward, looks like we argue about the subject over here just as much as the Americans!! (sad but true!)
Atleast u have lots of, 'interesting' opinions!!
Now all you have to do is decide!.....


----------



## Lil_Elphie

James_and_Hana said:


> For a change weve tried using bird sand paper (that you put in the bottom of a bird cage) We shook all the excess and loose sand off before putting it in, it looks nice and natural and its good for the geckos to rub shed off against without the risk of impactation. Its also quiet a fine grain sand so its not too harsh/rough on the geckos


 
I use this!! I thought i was the only one! It's cheap, looks great in the viv and my AFT seems perfectly happy with it! He's a fussy one, was brought up on sand in the pet shop and when i tried to bring him off it he became really stressed so i tried this and he's all good now!


----------



## vizzyuk

HUGE debat that will never end!!! i use sand for my leos when they turn a year old and they have developed a good digestion system. my opinion is that impaction can happen in pretty much the same way that getting run over can happen when you cross the road.

i made the same statement on another thread recently, and someone jumped on my back saying that if there was even a minmal risk, its not fair on the animals to take it, as they have the right to a perfect life blah blah blah.

this opinion is fair enough but i reckon anyone who keeps any rep and shares that opinion is a hypocrite, cause surely keeping reps in vivs as opposed to the wild provides even a minimal risk of stress??? not a new debate, just my thoughts:whistling2:


----------



## Nic B-C

I aim to have a varied substrate on the floor of the viv when i set it up before the weekend when i get my three in.

In the wild they are either on sand or imapcted clay and its probably why in the wild they dont lose toes from poor shedding as they are not cushioned by paper towel or lino!

Im trying to get all my vivs based on the animals natural environments and funnily enough none of these include lino, paper towels, newspaper or bird paper although the latter aint a bad idea as at least its getting there!


----------



## sazzle

cooljules said:


> me a mix of sand/pebbles/stones/rocks, have for over 10 years


^^^ ditto... except for the 10 years part anyway... never had a problem yet... although i only give it to the ones that have no problems catching their food... my new leo is currently on kitchen towel...


----------



## Luke87

dude, think its really cool your doing all your research! most people go out there buy lizard then think "oh shit, what does he need etc!" Giving him a viv with 3 types of natural substrate to him sounds cool, and i hope it works for you! i just like my polystyrene decor as it works for me and most importantly works for my beardie, its just a nice bonus that it looks really nice!

Let us know what subs your using, even if its in a PM to me, im interested! 

takes some pics also: victory:

Good luck!

Luke


----------



## loulovespat

Nic B-C said:


> I aim to have a varied substrate on the floor of the viv when i set it up before the weekend when i get my three in.
> 
> In the wild they are either on sand or imapcted clay and its probably why in the wild they dont lose toes from poor shedding as they are not cushioned by paper towel or lino!
> 
> Im trying to get all my vivs based on the animals natural environments and funnily enough none of these include lino, paper towels, newspaper or bird paper although the latter aint a bad idea as at least its getting there!


 when people put 1.1 geck or 1.2 or some like that, what do they mean??


----------



## elljhitch

1.1.0, the digit that comes before the decimal is how many males they have, after the first decimal is females and after the second decimal is unknown sex!


----------



## loulovespat

elljhitch said:


> 1.1.0, the digit that comes before the decimal is how many males they have, after the first decimal is females and after the second decimal is unknown sex!


 Ok THanks!


----------



## loulovespat

whats better to use for my gecko, woodchips or sand?


----------



## cooljules

loulovespat said:


> whats better to use for my gecko, woodchips or sand?


have you actually read any of the posts?


----------



## Nic B-C

cooljules said:


> have you actually read any of the posts?



hahahahah thats the point though nobody on here agrees


----------



## joe190

SAND!
i use it

it great and i dont care what anyone says. its perfectly fine


----------



## loulovespat

yea i have read them but i just want everybodys advice...


----------



## cooljules

loulovespat said:


> yea i have read them but i just want everybodys advice...


well i put how i keep mine, and lots put how they keep theres....so theres your answer


----------



## loulovespat

cooljules said:


> well i put how i keep mine, and lots put how they keep theres....so theres your answer


 so you've had no problems with sand ? the thing is people are saying how in the wild they aint kept on sand but they aint kept on newspaper or kitchen roll either lol


----------



## Nic B-C

In the wild they are on substrates like baked clay and sand, dry wood matter and the likes


----------



## cooljules

loulovespat said:


> so you've had no problems with sand ? the thing is people are saying how in the wild they aint kept on sand but they aint kept on newspaper or kitchen roll either lol


were did i say i kept them on sand?


----------



## loulovespat

cooljules said:


> were did i say i kept them on sand?


ok lets start again, what do you then??


----------



## loulovespat

Nic B-C said:


> In the wild they are on substrates like baked clay and sand, dry wood matter and the likes


so they've got newspaper out there then?? and kitchen roll! bloody hell, how do they get it ! ......


----------



## Nic B-C

loulovespat said:


> so they've got newspaper out there then?? and kitchen roll! bloody hell, how do they get it ! ......


Must have been at the 24 hr corner shop


----------



## loulovespat

Nic B-C said:


> Must have been at the 24 hr corner shop


 wow how great is that! lucky them lol


----------



## loulovespat

Nic B-C said:


> I aim to have a varied substrate on the floor of the viv when i set it up before the weekend when i get my three in.
> 
> In the wild they are either on sand or imapcted clay and its probably why in the wild they dont lose toes from poor shedding as they are not cushioned by paper towel or lino!
> 
> Im trying to get all my vivs based on the animals natural environments and funnily enough none of these include lino, paper towels, newspaper or bird paper although the latter aint a bad idea as at least its getting there!


 do you think bird sand could be used for my gecko?? cause at my pet shop they say its just the same as using normal sand for them.


----------



## Sarah-Jayne

loulovespat said:


> do you think bird sand could be used for my gecko?? cause at my pet shop they say its just the same as using normal sand for them.


The substrate debate is one you are never ever going to get a definate answer to....

Leopard geckos do not live on sand in the wild, so why would anyone want to put them on that in captivity? they cannot digest the sand and are incredibly rubbish hunters

When I first got Spyro from the pet shop she came with a loose substrate called Mazy (corn cob stuff) and that could have almost killed her but I caught the impactation early and solved the problem

Ok fair enough they dont live on tiles/kitchen roll/reptile carpet etc in the wild either, but its a hard substrate that cannot be digested and is the closest you are gonna get to their natural habitat without making some sort of baked clay substrate

I believe you can get something that looks like sand but you can mould it and set it (so it is not loose), I did consider giving that a try, until I saw how expensive it is!


----------



## Sarah-Jayne

loulovespat said:


> do you think bird sand could be used for my gecko?? cause at my pet shop they say its just the same as using normal sand for them.


forgot to say, bird sand has oyster shell in, so not a good idea to use for your gecko. If you absolutely are set on using sand, use fine play sand....


----------



## Nic B-C

Just found this guide which seems quite good

How To Create the Ideal Leopard Gecko Habitat


----------



## Luke87

think its time to close this, pretty much everyone on the forums have said there oppinions on yes or no to sand, but im 99% everyone agrees NO WOOD CHIPS... yet what does he/she ask? wood chips or sand :bash: :bash:


kids


----------



## Rachey88

this thread would be a good sticky for beginners


----------



## moss

For me its a mixture of sand (calci sand and fine play sand )slate and some homemade polystyrene covered in sand/pva glue furniture, they love it


----------



## geckos

well its up to you what you use but i use tiles it looks ok but dosnt look as good as sand but i would use tiles or paper towels for babys and when there adult use play sand they dont live on loose substate in the wild but if you want to use sand use play sand


----------



## puyopop

I used tissue and newspaper before, but I realised that the best thing is to use no substrate at all. Easy to clean and disinfect. : victory:


----------



## Nic B-C

Rachey88 said:


> this thread would be a good sticky for beginners


Aye just to confuse the hell out of them!!!


----------



## mad baboon

i use sand at the min but as soon as i get a heat mat for my 3ft viv im switching to newspaper or kitchen roll...


----------



## Knarf3

In my humble opinion, If the leos are 6-7 months then i would go for kitchen roll, but i now have all my leos on lino with a thin layer of sand laid on top. Then in the corner where they do the loo i have more sand so that it does not stick to the lino. just do the poop scoop thing and wahla cleaned out with a deep clean and sand swap every week. :2thumb:

Just to recap this is what i do for my geckos. I am not telling anybody what they should use but i have 8 very happy leos :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Hope to be 9 once everybodys eggs start to hatch:lol2:


----------



## loulovespat

*Sand!*

www.videojug.com/film/how-to-care-for-leopard-geckos


----------



## stern69

Get a large slate/sandstone tile from a garden centre, around 1 inch thick, hold it approx 3-4feet in the air and then drop.

Take all the pieces, lay in viv with approx 1-2cm gap in between and fill with gaps with lots of little pebbles. Looks natural and is very similar to their natural habitat.

PS Sand is bad! Used it for about a week and after it started coming out of theback end of my geckos i swapped it.

SIMPLE FACT IS, SAND CAN, AND VERY OFTEN DOES, CAUSE IMPACTION. IT MIGHT NOT HAPPEN TO YOU, BUT WHY RISK IT??


----------



## cooljules

stern69 said:


> Get a large slate/sandstone tile from a garden centre, around 1 inch thick, hold it approx 3-4feet in the air and then drop.
> 
> Take all the pieces, lay in viv with approx 1-2cm gap in between and fill with gaps with lots of little pebbles. Looks natural and is very similar to their natural habitat.
> 
> PS Sand is bad! Used it for about a week and after it started coming out of theback end of my geckos i swapped it.
> 
> SIMPLE FACT IS, SAND CAN, AND VERY OFTEN DOES, CAUSE IMPACTION. IT MIGHT NOT HAPPEN TO YOU, BUT WHY RISK IT??


NO IT DOESNT VERY OFTEN HAPPEN, ITS NEVER HAPPENED TO ME OR ANYONE I KNOW, INC BREEDERS AND KEEPERS FOR 20 YEARS:whip:


----------



## Ssthisto

cooljules said:


> NO IT DOESNT VERY OFTEN HAPPEN, ITS NEVER HAPPENED TO ME OR ANYONE I KNOW, INC BREEDERS AND KEEPERS FOR 20 YEARS:whip:


You "know" me - we've met and spoken on various forums and newsgroups in the past 

And I lost a gecko to sand impaction.

Now, that doesn't mean it happens "often" - but I would personally say that the risk of someone's gecko being the "one in a thousand" statistic is one in a thousand too many for me.


----------



## stern69

cooljules said:


> NO IT DOESNT VERY OFTEN HAPPEN, ITS NEVER HAPPENED TO ME OR ANYONE I KNOW, INC BREEDERS AND KEEPERS FOR 20 YEARS:whip:


So you have known breeders and keepers for over 20 years and have NEVER known anyone to EVER have a problem with imapction?? I'm sorry but i don't believe that. I am fairly new to this game and have already had a run in with it and judging by the other posts you see on here, o have alot of other people. Whether you think it happens "often" "fairly often" or whatever, it happens.
Someone who claims to have so much experience (20 years) should know this. You shoulod also know that leopard geckos don't live on sand!! This is probably why they can't deal with it very well.
Your ignorance amazes me.


----------



## cooljules

stern69 said:


> So you have known breeders and keepers for over 20 years and have NEVER known anyone to EVER have a problem with imapction?? I'm sorry but i don't believe that. I am fairly new to this game and have already had a run in with it and judging by the other posts you see on here, o have alot of other people. Whether you think it happens "often" "fairly often" or whatever, it happens.
> Someone who claims to have so much experience (20 years) should know this. You shoulod also know that leopard geckos don't live on sand!! This is probably why they can't deal with it very well.
> Your ignorance amazes me.


i never said i had 20 years, i said i had 14 and know keepers of more than 20 years who have never had a problem...your doing something wrong if your a newbie and having impaction, i would look into that...:whistling2:


----------



## R0NST3R

cooljules said:


> i never said i had 20 years, i said i had 14 and know keepers of more than 20 years who have never had a problem...*your doing something wrong if your a newbie and having impaction*, i would look into that...:whistling2:


Yes, listening to people like you who say that they have never known of anyone have a lizard that gets impaction. Also by listening to shop owners who say "no this will never cause impaction because it is 100% pure calcium and can be passed"


----------



## wacky69

why are we having this debate AGAIN?? why do ppl feel the need to start yet another thread on substrate when we all know we will NEVER agree on this subject.

Personally i use lino it looks good easy to clean and 0% chance of impaction. 

If ppl want to take the risk of using sand thats up to them. If they want a NATURAL substrate cos they all seem to think soft sand dunes are natural when they are so not. Spend some money and get zoo-med excavator clay yeah its expensive but its also the closest you wil come to NATURAL


----------



## knighty

i use wood chippings that are easily 1.5 times the size of his head and i have a small area of sand around his water and calcim dish and i have not had any problems, he is fed from a dish that is placed on the large wood chippings and to be honest its rare that some thing escapes before it is eaten.

As with keeping anything weather its a frog, snake, chameleon ect there will always be people that use and have had no problems, there will be people that dont use because they have had a problem and there will be people that dont use because they have herd of bad experiences and dont want to risk a problem.


----------



## Dextersdad

wacky69 said:


> why are we having this debate AGAIN??



Here here.


----------



## lil05

my own opinion is not to use sand as impaction is a risk .. but as many people have probably said 
"ive kept mine on sand and had no problems" 
this is probably true it can be successful as impaction is a risk and it can happen but obviously it does alwasy and people have used sand for years .. its just do you want to risk your leopards dies because of it and feel as if it was your fault as you were the one who provided it with the substrate that caused the death


----------



## cooljules

lil05 said:


> my own opinion is not to use sand as impaction is a risk .. but as many people have probably said
> "ive kept mine on sand and had no problems"
> this is probably true it can be successful as impaction is a risk and it can happen but obviously it does alwasy and people have used sand for years .. its just do you want to risk your leopards dies because of it and feel as if it was your fault as you were the one who provided it with the substrate that caused the death


then why keep any pet, risk of turmors, risk of parasite..etc etc why get out of bed? risk of falling down the stairs etc


----------



## freekygeeky

cooljules said:


> then why keep any pet, risk of turmors, risk of parasite..etc etc why get out of bed? risk of falling down the stairs etc


thign is this arguement no matter how many times its brought u is going to cause debate etc etc.. its going round and round in circles.

you.. you can say what you say you have been lucky and had nothign go wrong in 10 + years.. same as people with cresties havent had problems with eco earth etc etc.. until you, th ekeeper has a problem, only then will you realise. you will feel awful guilty and cr*p. ive been there done there got the t-shirt. i HAVE tried and had the concequences.. none have died, but my i have felt rubbish, its my fault afterall. they aint they clever they arent human and they done realise if i keep eatign this sebstrate i will die.

This is why i dont use..

eco earth
moss
vermiulite

and this is why i dont use sand.. if they eat everythign else, why would i try sand..

EVERYONE has their own opinions...
and everyone has a right to have their own opinions. 
only you as the keeper can decide whats right and wrong, and if that means your fine on sand for 30 years without nothing going wrong thats fine, the day you have something go wrong, you may re think...

and so on..

im fed up of these threads...

its up to the keeper.. risk it... they may never eat it.. risk it.. they may eat it... risk it....im fine for 10 years why not another 10 years...
or dont risk it.. im nto risking it anymore.. none of mine will have problems, unless tehy eat kitchen roll, and if they do.. i will notice and act accordingly.

please no more threads on substrate.


----------



## cooljules

freekygeeky said:


> thign is this arguement no matter how many times its brought u is going to cause debate etc etc.. its going round and round in circles.
> 
> you.. you can say what you say you have been lucky and had nothign go wrong in 10 + years.. same as people with cresties havent had problems with eco earth etc etc.. until you, th ekeeper has a problem, only then will you realise. you will feel awful guilty and cr*p. ive been there done there got the t-shirt. i HAVE tried and had the concequences.. none have died, but my i have felt rubbish, its my fault afterall. they aint they clever they arent human and they done realise if i keep eatign this sebstrate i will die.
> 
> This is why i dont use..
> 
> eco earth
> moss
> vermiulite
> 
> and this is why i dont use sand.. if they eat everythign else, why would i try sand..
> 
> EVERYONE has their own opinions...
> and everyone has a right to have their own opinions.
> only you as the keeper can decide whats right and wrong, and if that means your fine on sand for 30 years without nothing going wrong thats fine, the day you have something go wrong, you may re think...
> 
> and so on..
> 
> im fed up of these threads...
> 
> its up to the keeper.. risk it... they may never eat it.. risk it.. they may eat it... risk it....im fine for 10 years why not another 10 years...
> or dont risk it.. im nto risking it anymore.. none of mine will have problems, unless tehy eat kitchen roll, and if they do.. i will notice and act accordingly.
> 
> please no more threads on substrate.


if someone asks about substrate then im going to comment...and because i have kept them on sand i will comment on that...not like those who have never kept on sand commenting oooooo it causes impaction


----------



## freekygeeky

cooljules said:


> if someone asks about substrate then im going to comment...and because i have kept them on sand i will comment on that...not like those who have never kept on sand commenting oooooo it causes impaction


what im saying is..
you saying .. ''ive had reptiles for blah blah blah and they ahve been fine'' is the same as saying ''ive had a gecko on sand and its had impaction'' 

its YOUR opinion... you have been fine... that doesnt mean others will be fine. And saying mine has died (example) doesnt mean others will die.

The thing is sayign yours have been fine doesnt mean others will be ok, what if people take your word for it ... do it and they die? or get impacted?...

they would blame you..

i think everyone can have their opinion, but people *Should* know what *can* go wrong.


----------



## cooljules

freekygeeky said:


> what im saying is..
> you saying .. ''ive had reptiles for blah blah blah and they ahve been fine'' is the same as saying ''ive had a gecko on sand and its had impaction''
> 
> its YOUR opinion... you have been fine... that doesnt mean others will be fine. And saying mine has died (example) doesnt mean others will die.
> 
> The thing is sayign yours have been fine doesnt mean others will be ok, what if people take your word for it ... do it and they die? or get impacted?...
> 
> they would blame you..
> 
> i think everyone can have their opinion, but people *Should* know what *can* go wrong.


and from this someone who has never even kept on sand...


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## freekygeeky

cooljules said:


> and from this someone who has never even kept on sand...


oh my god.. you dont bloody listen/read do you.

you drive me mad sometimes.. seriously..









People..

*Bark* can be ok, sometimes it can cause impaction and tearing can lead to death
*Vermiculite* can be ok, somtimes it causes impaction will pass through
*Moss* can be ok, somtimes it causes impaction and can pass through if spotted
*Sand* can be ok, somtimes it causes impaction and can pass through,. if spotted early enough but can lead to death 
*Eco Earth* can be ok, somtimes it causes impaction but can pass through if spotted early enough
*Paper Towel* can be ok, somtimes it can also cause impaction, can be spotetd easily, and can pass through
*Lino* is ok, Cant be eaten, wont get eaten

i PERSONALLY (i.e ME) prefer to have somthing that i know they CANT get impacted on. Lino (they cant eat) and kitchen roll (ill notice if its missing) why woudl i risk it, im not JUST talking about sand. Why risk somthing when you dont need to. Its like.. walking down the middle of the road, when you CAN walk on a path.. no point.

i have used and currently use some of those in my WHOLE colletion of reptiles... all im saying is people NEED to know that substrates CAN go wrong.. but they CAN also be ok..


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## cooljules

freekygeeky said:


> oh my god.. you dont bloody listen/read do you.
> 
> you drive me mad sometimes.. seriously..



just look at the other thread...the one with the poll....from people who HAVE kept on sand.....


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## freekygeeky

cooljules said:


> just look at the other thread...the one with the poll....from people who HAVE kept on sand.....


your still not reading what im putting. thats fine with me.
give up.


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## lil05

cooljules said:


> then why keep any pet, risk of turmors, risk of parasite..etc etc why get out of bed? risk of falling down the stairs etc


 maybe i missed something
yeah theres a risk of parasites and tumours but they arent always a cause from something else as impaction is a cause from something you have given them to live on .. 
im not saying "DO NOT USE IT" i said my personal opinion was that i wouldnt use it as all ive seen about it had mme worried but i also stated loads of people hae kept leos on sand probably even calci sand and not had any problems with it so its only a risk and not a yes your leo will die if you do this cause thats not even true 

i didnt mean that to be an argument as it is sidiing on both sides saying yes impaction can happen if used but if used doesnt mean it will happen cause it doesnt in probably most of the cases


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## yellrat

im not gonna do a massive post and not going to contest anything people have said.
what im going to say is people will have to make up their own mind on what substrate to use.
all we can do as reptile keepers is provide our own experiences to other people.
so they know risks/pros and cons of substrates that have been used by us.
after they have read our experiences they should have enough knowledge to easily make up their own mind on what substrate they want to use.

there is no right or wrong there is just risk assesment


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## freekygeeky

lil05 said:


> im not saying "DO NOT USE IT" i said my personal opinion was that i wouldnt use it


same


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## lil05

just to add ive tried sand and used to keep my leo on sani chips and never had a problem i only changed because i didnt want to risk a problem just in case impaction did happen


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## freekygeeky

yellrat said:


> there is no right or wrong there is just risk assesment


exactly


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## lil05

freekygeeky said:


> exactly


 yeh exactly what we just said .. cooljules im not arguing with you cause personally i have no problem with people using sand or what ever as a substrate .. im not gonna just have a go just because of risks cause as you said loads of things are risks and you obviously know them as they are repeated on here quite a lot and youve made up your own mind to what substarte you will use and that is your PERSONAL CHOICE where as other members PERSONAL choices are to not use sand .. each to there own really 

i was even surprised the other day that kitchen towl could cause impaction when that is one of the recommended "safe" substrates


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## freekygeeky

lil05 said:


> i was even surprised the other day that kitchen towl could cause impaction when that is one of the recommended "safe" substrates


good thing is though if they eat it, you will notice. you will notice if bits are missing as its in 1x1x square paper towels. were as toher loose substrate you wont noticce if bitsare missing, unless you count bark chips, or sand and so on,, lol. now that would be sad.


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## Nic B-C

Do you not all realise impaction can happen regardless of what substrate you use.

Impaction is usually the result of an intestinal problem which causes a backlog int he sytem and then animal eats whaterver is around to try and clear it. Watch dogs and cats for instance eating grasds to aid digestion!

A lizard could just as easily become impacted on its food especially if it its system isnt breaking it down.

As for saying please dont post such posts anymore, here the simple answer is if you are sick and tirwed of such posts dont look at them and dont post.

There are literally hindreds of new members logging on here each day are you saying they should be able to find out how to care for their animals on a forum anymore.

If you are sick of such posts as what substrate, what food Which morph then your time on forums is over and complete, just turn away and go and read a book, go to the cinema or perhaps even go and speak to someone else!


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## wacky69

freekygeeky said:


> thign is this arguement no matter how many times its brought u is going to cause debate etc etc.. its going round and round in circles.
> 
> you.. you can say what you say you have been lucky and had nothign go wrong in 10 + years.. same as people with cresties havent had problems with eco earth etc etc.. until you, th ekeeper has a problem, only then will you realise. you will feel awful guilty and cr*p. ive been there done there got the t-shirt. i HAVE tried and had the concequences.. none have died, but my i have felt rubbish, its my fault afterall. they aint they clever they arent human and they done realise if i keep eatign this sebstrate i will die.
> 
> This is why i dont use..
> 
> eco earth
> moss
> vermiulite
> 
> and this is why i dont use sand.. if they eat everythign else, why would i try sand..
> 
> EVERYONE has their own opinions...
> and everyone has a right to have their own opinions.
> only you as the keeper can decide whats right and wrong, and if that means your fine on sand for 30 years without nothing going wrong thats fine, the day you have something go wrong, you may re think...
> 
> and so on..
> 
> im fed up of these threads...
> 
> its up to the keeper.. risk it... they may never eat it.. risk it.. they may eat it... risk it....im fine for 10 years why not another 10 years...
> or dont risk it.. im nto risking it anymore.. none of mine will have problems, unless tehy eat kitchen roll, and if they do.. i will notice and act accordingly.
> 
> please no more threads on substrate.


thats the most sensible post ive read in a while!!

Cooljules you seem to have blinkers on when it comes to this subject and thats fine but why tell ppl they SHOULD use sand when its far from their natural substrate. Also stop skimming posts and actually read them this is why u pi**** me off the other night



seriously tho can this be locked or somat cos no matter what there is always going to ba an argument.


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## Nic B-C

Why lock if you are fed up reading these posts dont read them new people need to see them and decide for themselves surely!


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## wacky69

Nic B-C said:


> Why lock if you are fed up reading these posts dont read them new people need to see them and decide for themselves surely!


because there must be about 5 substrate threads on the go atm. Newbies aint gonna get any sense out of these threads either as there is conflicting advice!! and alot of arguing


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## lil05

i didnt read any posts saying they are sick about seeing post about substrate, but to be honest they are needed so new members can read them and understand more about different substrates and maybe why people choose not to use some and then they can make up there own mind .. 

maybe there needs to be a sticky about substrates, but NOT saying which ones to use but just outlining all the substrates there is, such as bark chipping, sand, calci sand, lino, slate, etc, and saying what are the safest (least risk of impaction) as this way it will let new member know about the risks of impaction using certain sorts of substrates and then they can make up there own mind whether they want to use it .. 

when i was a new member as soon as i saw about impaction i changed it straight away and im sure a large percentage of new owners would for the welfare of there animal but if they dont atleast they are educated about the RISK of things happening instead of having lots more arguments about this.

simply if a new post comes up about "what is the best substrate" members can either direct to the sticky or say what is right for that certain species eg. some torts like to dig so a loose substrate is best.


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## wacky69

lil05 said:


> i didnt read any posts saying they are sick about seeing post about substrate, but to be honest they are needed so new members can read them and understand more about different substrates and maybe why people choose not to use some and then they can make up there own mind ..
> 
> maybe there needs to be a sticky about substrates, but NOT saying which ones to use but just outlining all the substrates there is, such as bark chipping, sand, calci sand, lino, slate, etc, and saying what are the safest (least risk of impaction) as this way it will let new member know about the risks of impaction using certain sorts of substrates and then they can make up there own mind whether they want to use it ..
> 
> when i was a new member as soon as i saw about impaction i changed it straight away and im sure a large percentage of new owners would for the welfare of there animal but if they dont atleast they are educated about the RISK of things happening instead of having lots more arguments about this.
> 
> simply if a new post comes up about "what is the best substrate" members can either direct to the sticky or say what is right for that certain species eg. some torts like to dig so a loose substrate is best.


Its not so much about the threads getting started its about the arguments that always start on 'substrate' threads if i was a newbie reading this thread i would be extremely confused cos all it is is just a group of ppl for sand and a group of ppl against it theres nothing really informative unless you know what your looking for and a newbie isnt.

Doubt there will be a sticky as there would still be this debate unless it was locked.

Also ppl before starting yet another thread on sand substrate please use the search function!


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## lil05

yeah maybe there will be arguments but it should be locked straight away as it does seem to be a topic everyone has an opinion about .. thats why it need to just be informative aswel and has both sides of the arguments to keep everyone happy .. 

just thinking about it though there will be still people who will complain about whats writen .. grr hard to keep everyone happy lol


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## Nic B-C

why should they use the search function its a forum and its there for people to post, if it relied on search the forum would not be active and nobody would use anymore.

You may kow or think you know what you are doing and whats best and as you ahve seen others have other views, but new people start every day and this is a forum for asking questions and getting answers.

being told to use a search function, leaping on people for asking for advice, telling peopleoff for buying a lizard when not knowing how to care for it when coming on here for advice are all ways of actually stopping people from getting information and ultimately harming their animals.

As ive said before if you are sick of seeeing such posts just ignore them its that simple really.

They are posted as people want answers and they are answered as people want to answer

It really is that simple!


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## stern69

cooljules said:


> i never said i had 20 years, i said i had 14 and know keepers of more than 20 years who have never had a problem...your doing something wrong if your a newbie and having impaction, i would look into that...:whistling2:


How exactly do you suggest i "look into that"? Imapction DOES happen but, like you, i chose to bury my head in the sand (sorry for the pun) and ignore it. Well, it happened. Nothing to do with experience, nothing you can "look into", just the fact that if you put sand into a geckos viv, you MIGHT end up dealing with impaction. Quite how anyone can question this fact is beyond me.

Answer me this, if you wanted to redecorate your kid's room, and picked some paint but on the tin it said that this would kill 1 in every 100 kids who live in that room, would you use it? Simply saying "well i know someone who uses it and their kids didn't die" is ridiculous. Sand impaction, or any other type of impaction from loose substrate can and does happen and when it does, it causes alot of pain. WHY RUN THE RISK?


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## stern69

cooljules said:


> then why keep any pet, risk of turmors, risk of parasite..etc etc why get out of bed? risk of falling down the stairs etc


I think you're missing the point here Jules. Sand CAN cause impaction. Whether this is often, very often, hardly ever, once in a blue moon, only on Thursdays it is a risk if you, as a keeper, choose to use sand (which again, IS NOT what geckos live on!) Would you house a lion in a penguin enclosure becuase it looks nice? 
Whatever your opinion/experience, alot of geckos do suffer from impaction and this causes alot of pain and even death. 
The evidence is out there and you don't ave to look far to find it. Sure some people use sand with no problems, but alot use sand and the result is illness or even death. I cannot even start to understand why anyone would risk it! 

Why people re so desperate to close this thread is beyond me. If you don't like it, no offence but don't read it! If you've heard it all before then cover your ears and don't listen. And as for confused newbies, isn't there a newbie section on this website? 
This is a FORUM and this is what FORUMS are for!

And for any newbies reading this, here is the truth and i challenge anyone to question it.....

SAND MIGHT CAUSE YOUR GECKO TO DIE. THEY DON'T LIVE ON SAND IN THE WILD AND IF USE IT, YOU COULD KILL IT. YOU MIGHT NOT, BUT IT DOES HAPPEN! USE ROCKS, STONES, LINO, REPTILE CARPET, JUST DON'T RISK SAND.


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## R0NST3R

stern69 said:


> *I think you're missing the point here Jules*. Sand CAN cause impaction. Whether this is often, very often, hardly ever, once in a blue moon, only on Thursdays it is a risk if you, as a keeper, choose to use sand (which again, IS NOT what geckos live on!) Would you house a lion in a penguin enclosure becuase it looks nice?
> Whatever your opinion/experience, alot of geckos do suffer from impaction and this causes alot of pain and even death.
> The evidence is out there and you don't ave to look far to find it. Sure some people use sand with no problems, but alot use sand and the result is illness or even death. I cannot even start to understand why anyone would risk it!
> 
> Why people re so desperate to close this thread is beyond me. If you don't like it, no offence but don't read it! If you've heard it all before then cover your ears and don't listen. And as for confused newbies, isn't there a newbie section on this website?
> This is a FORUM and this is what FORUMS are for!
> 
> And for any newbies reading this, here is the truth and i challenge anyone to question it.....
> 
> SAND MIGHT CAUSE YOUR GECKO TO DIE. THEY DON'T LIVE ON SAND IN THE WILD AND IF USE IT, YOU COULD KILL IT. YOU MIGHT NOT, BUT IT DOES HAPPEN! USE ROCKS, STONES, LINO, REPTILE CARPET, JUST DON'T RISK SAND.


I don't think he's missing the point at all. I think he's just being an idiot, he knows what you point is. He's just using them examples to go over the top.


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## Dextersdad

lil05 said:


> yeah maybe there will be arguments but it should be locked straight away as it does seem to be a topic everyone has an opinion about .. thats why it need to just be informative aswel and has both sides of the arguments to keep everyone happy ..
> 
> just thinking about it though there will be still people who will complain about whats writen .. grr hard to keep everyone happy lol


Indeed, lock the thread and keyboard warriors!


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## cooljules

R0NST3R said:


> I don't think he's missing the point at all. I think he's just being an idiot, he knows what you point is. He's just using them examples to go over the top.


no, i never said i kept mine on only sand, i also said i have never had, or seen a impaction from kept on and, stones, rocks etc. how i keep mine, and actually never seen one with impaction from anything but calcisand.


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## joe190

SAND ALL THE WAY!
very natural
gecko's much prefer it to tissue/newspaper


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## R0NST3R

joe190 said:


> SAND ALL THE WAY!
> *very natural*
> gecko's much prefer it to tissue/newspaper


 
Ok, you show me a leopard gecko in the wild on sand. Seeing where they come from it is more a clay substance


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## cooljules

R0NST3R said:


> Ok, you show me a leopard gecko in the wild on sand. Seeing where they come from it is more a clay substance


and i keep mine on dry eco earth etc.

and to keep on paper etc.....you do that, i will stick to my way until i see impaction thats proved.


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## Dextersdad

joe190 said:


> SAND ALL THE WAY!
> very natural
> gecko's much prefer it to tissue/newspaper


Someone will start an argument mate. Always the way. No worries, we use sand and a calcium powder dish. Sand's not an issue.
Got good tips from Ray Hines and Ron Tremper who use it successfully:2thumb::2thumb:

Leos live on sofas in the wild.


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## R0NST3R

cooljules said:


> and i keep mine on dry eco earth etc.
> 
> and to keep on paper etc.....you do that, i will stick to my way until i see impaction thats proved.


Can you show me where I said I keep mine on paper please?


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## R0NST3R

Dextersdad said:


> Someone will start an argument mate. Always the way. No worries, we use sand and a calcium powder dish. Sand's not an issue.
> Got good tips from Ray Hines and Ron Tremper who use it successfully:2thumb::2thumb:
> 
> *Leos live on sofas in the wild.*


 
ffs.. I was told they live on beds? Looks like another trip to Ikea


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## Dextersdad

R0NST3R said:


> ffs.. I was told they live on beds? Looks like another trip to Ikea


Leather sofas.

DFS man told me: victory:


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## Nic B-C

Dextersdad said:


> Leather sofas.
> 
> DFS man told me: victory:


What if they are vegan leos?


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## Ssthisto

Then they're housed on Naugahyde. Naugas, being imaginary animals, have vegan-friendly skins.


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## Alex88

Well were keeping all ours on calci sand atm, but its not very hygenic and the do make it stink, we spot clean them every night, but i might change it to news paper i think


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## Nic B-C

Alex88 said:


> Well were keeping all ours on calci sand atm, but its not very hygenic and the do make it stink, we spot clean them every night, but i might change it to news paper i think


That seems to be the one substrate people are unanimous about definitely not having!


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## Nic B-C

Might be an idea to repost stating where yuo are and when you want it Im sure there was someone on here from around there and they kept beardies as well


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## stern69

cooljules said:


> no, i never said i kept mine on only sand, i also said i have never had, or seen a impaction from kept on and, stones, rocks etc. how i keep mine, and actually never seen one with impaction from anything but calcisand.


Well i am telling you that sand CAN cause impaction. It happened to me. And, contrary to what you suggested before, this is nothing to do with experience or knowledge. If you put a gecko in a sand filled viv, they COULD, PERHAPS, MAYBE, swallow sand. They MIGHT lick it up, they MIGHT accidentally ingest a couple of grains whilst feeding. However it happens, sand is a definate risk. Not a forgone conclusion, just a risk. 

End of.


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## stern69

Dextersdad said:


> Someone will start an argument mate. Always the way. No worries, we use sand and a calcium powder dish. Sand's not an issue.
> Got good tips from Ray Hines and Ron Tremper who use it successfully:2thumb::2thumb:
> 
> Leos live on sofas in the wild.


Sand IS an issue. You do what you like to your pets, but i'm on here saying that i put mine on sand and they suffered. It does happen and it's not only me who has reported this. How can someone seriously say that it is not an issue when so many people are having issues with it? When you admit it IS an issue? When your pets are dying from their owners ignorance? As i said, do what you like to your pets but claiming sand IS NOT AN ISSUE is sending out the wrong message completely.

Maybe only 1 in 100 geckos will die or get very ill from sand impaction but it has been proven to happen. 

As a said to Cooljules previously, if you were painting your kids room with paint that lots of people were reporting was dangerous and had made their kids very ill or had killed them would you still use it just because you like the colour? Or just because some expert had said that he's used it for years and had no problems? Anyone who cares for their pets (and this is not aimed at you but just a statement in general) would not even contemplate using sand.


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## [email protected]

chondro13 said:


> This is a massive debate on here - the bottom line is, in the wild they live on rocky compacted surfaces - NOT loose substrate.
> 
> If you keep them on sand/calci sand/woodchips in captivity (especially when their young) they could get impaction and they could die. Whichever way you look at it there is a risk.
> 
> IMO the best substrate is kitchen roll. But, like you i hated the look of it. So i spent a week making this: which is impaction free, and looks considerably better... maybe that solves your problem?
> 
> image





your tank looks amazing, how did you make it like that?


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## clownbarb1

chondro13 said:


> This is a massive debate on here - the bottom line is, in the wild they live on rocky compacted surfaces - NOT loose substrate.
> 
> If you keep them on sand/calci sand/woodchips in captivity (especially when their young) they could get impaction and they could die. Whichever way you look at it there is a risk.
> 
> IMO the best substrate is kitchen roll. But, like you i hated the look of it. So i spent a week making this: which is impaction free, and looks considerably better... maybe that solves your problem?
> 
> image


 that is so cool call can you tell me how to make it plz:2thumb:


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## jakerogers

Feed with forceps and use edible sand such as types enriched with v+ms also use soluble sand which will disolve when digested, however if using sand with calcium in may mean introducing a uvb light however not advised on the albino types as can cause blindness. and if you introduce a light buy a guard!!!


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## kirstyjune9

Ive just scooped my sand out as dont want to take the risk of hurting him... replaced it with the god awful kitchen roll until i can find a replacement.. can any kitchen lino be used?? is this the best option for him?


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