# Food / Object dog aggression help please...



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

So the next step? What would you do?

As some of you know the family i work for have a dog, i'm with him Monday to Friday....

He is an amazing dog MOST of the time, but there is this aggression which we are struggling with.

It all started with aggression with his food bowl, this then escalated on to food objects (kongs/raw hide etc)... he hadnt shown any aggression for a few months until a few weeks back, and now its started again and its a near enough daily occurrence.

Its now not just food, its now gone on to other things ... this week its been...

A football
A packet of butter
A bag
A plant
A fabric lunch box
His sick

Its gone to food and things he sees as edible ... 

Its so bad that sometimes we are stuck in a room, and can't move. And its scary. He totally changes his posture, his face, everything..

He's had training, nothing nasty has ever happened to him, he's had a behaviourist in. And we are doing a 'program' with him (which hasnt done anything yet).

As a small pup he didnt like eating, we struggled with getting him to eat, he wouldnt get excited, or wag his tail etc. He had a place where he hid all his toys... etc etc .. .all signs of it starting, and at the time we thought of it as just baby behaviour. 

What can we do next -- we can't fill the role of dominate one ... you couldnt go in there and take the object off of him, as he would seriously seriously hurt you.

I will say it again, he is an amazing puppy, i LOVE working with him, i LOVE walking him, and i love cuddles and kisses from him. Its the spilt personality thats worrying.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Don't even try to dominate him - the dominance theory has been disproved in domestic dogs & you could be seriously injured in trying to do so!


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

yup, as i say we wouldnt dare try.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Who is he guarding against? Other dogs? Humans?
This is a cool guide - Resource Guarding Tips


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## Mrs Mental (May 5, 2009)

Is this dog in a house with young children??

Have the owners contacted the behavourist back? Sounds like he needs some serious help from a professional and quickly before he hurts someone, especially one of the children


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## Drayvan (Jul 7, 2010)

Im not a big expert on dogs, but the best advice i can offer is trying to associate giving you items with a reward, start with objects he is completely unposessive of so he associates that the reward comes from willingly offering up the item and very gradually working in items he is more possessive of? Maybe even trying familiar items associated with feeding. For example if he doesnt guard his food bowl when its empty or a bowl he doesnt recognize as 'his' maybe start with that and slowly introduce an amount of food when you feel its safe. Hope you find a way of working it out with him, he sounds a lovely dog despite the split personality : victory:


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

Devi said:


> Who is he guarding against? Other dogs? Humans?
> This is a cool guide - Resource Guarding Tips


Humans - ill take a look at that thanky 



Mrs Mental said:


> Is this dog in a house with young children??
> 
> Have the owners contacted the behavourist back? Sounds like he needs some serious help from a professional and quickly before he hurts someone, especially one of the children


The behavioursit said it can take 5 - 6 months...


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

freekygeeky said:


> Humans - ill take a look at that thanky


In that case trading is a great tool - Trade up game


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## Mrs Mental (May 5, 2009)

freekygeeky said:


> Humans - ill take a look at that thanky
> 
> 
> 
> *The behavioursit said it can take 5 - 6 months*...


 

Its a long time to take a risk with young chidren in the house. Sorry just my opinion.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 29, 2011)

I had a Bull Terrier with a very similar problem, he was like Jekyll & Hyde and would switch very quickly! He wasn't possessive over things, but would change suddenly in certain situations. It turned out he had a brain tumour and that's what was making him act so weird. I'm not saying the dog you work with has the same, but there's definitely something wrong and might be worth having him checked out by a Vet just in case.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Cheyenne said:


> I had a Bull Terrier with a very similar problem, he was like Jekyll & Hyde and would switch very quickly! He wasn't possessive over things, but would change suddenly in certain situations. It turned out he had a brain tumour and that's what was making him act so weird. I'm not saying the dog you work with has the same, but there's definitely something wrong and might be worth having him checked out by a Vet just in case.


I doubt there is anything like that wrong. In my mind the issue can be explained in such a "breed"

Many breeds especially those such as gundogs and others that are breed to work in harmony with a human (as opposed to say hounds that tend to be bred to do what comes naturally and aid humans, but do tend to be followed on a hunt than work in partnership) are bred to have a very fine balance of behaviour. Both the poodle and the Golden are great breeds but even traits that are good and well balanced individually in a breed when they combine in a cross breed can come together as an issue.

For example the poodle is likely to be more tenacious in its retrieving than a Golden it is a true water retriever and that can get tough, it needed that trait. The Golden then adds a higher desire for reward, which was a good trait and worked well for training the breed to be able to do roles a poodle would be more likely to fail or take longer to learn. This translates a little towards greed level that a poodle would not normally have but they are not a breed renown for fighting for what they want 

There is a very simple clash of the two in this one dog and it has lead to a unanticipated issue, which can be sorted out. Would I want to sort it out with children in the same house is a question worth asking, but it definitely can be sorted.


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## bobberbiker (Apr 7, 2010)

should of been taught as a pup and followed through with it for at least a few years that his food/toys are your food/toys, but bit late now lol... what id do is next time it happens....sit on the opposite side of the room and let him play with it...move 1 or 2ft closer...wait a few mins then another 1-2ft closer, when he starts growling etc back up just a tiny bit and wait a few mins then edge closer again, because your doing it very slowly he wont be half as wary and will prob ignore you after a while and he wont see it as a threat when your up close enough to him. the 1st time id get maybe 5-6ft away and just sit there dont attempt to touch him etc, the next time he does it do the same.... but get within 3ft... depending how he reacts you may be able to stroke him the 1st or 2nd time...if not just keep doing it until you can stroke him or play with him, after a few times of him letting you edge closer and stroke/play try attempting to remove it from him, prob not a bad idea to teach him again now his toys/food is yours....when he is not in a mood of course...just take a toy off him, when he is eating take a handful of food or take the bowl away... see how he reacts. iv only ever done it with pups so no danger posed and they learned there place so as a adult we could all take toys out there mouth.... my boxer only go a bit mean once with a toy and i just held his front and back leg and pulled them out so he was on his back (it doesnt hurt them) and he stopped right away and looked all sad and licked me to say sorry....never happend again, its better than pinning them down and grabbing there throat (some ppl do that as the mothers do it there pups) but take the slow approach a few ft every 10 mins... iv done it with nasty dogs who are human aggressive and it took hours but the same day i managed to get close enough to stroke them and problem was solved that same day.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

bobberbiker said:


> should of been taught as a pup and followed through with it for at least a few years that his food/toys are your food/toys, but bit late now lol..


too much writing cant read it all!

he has been taught as a pup, from 12 weeks he went to classes, and was taught at home, he is onlky 8 / 9 months old now.


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

This sounds like a classic case of a dominant type of dog and submissive owners,dogs are like nearly every animal on the planet,if they see weakness they will take charge,have had dominant breeds all my life,the last 20 years with akitas.These are a very strong willed dog and i have to be dominant over them,some breeds of dogs do not need this,but some definately do.My answer would contradict everyone else so i wont say it,and if the owners are not taught to take charge it will get worse ,to the point they can't go in the same room.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Bobberbiker, that is really not good advice, trying to approach a dog who is guarding and repeatedly making it growl will end up with a bitten owner and a worse dog. Pulling a dogs legs out from under it is also dangerous and frankly cruel.
Resource guarding is totally normal for dogs, in the wild it would perform the function of not having your food nicked! The way you deal with it is by letting the dog know that you're not planning on stealing their food at all, because you're not, why would you? It's dog food!


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

bobberbiker said:


> should of been taught as a pup and followed through with it for at least a few years that his food/toys are your food/toys, but bit late now lol... what id do is next time it happens....sit on the opposite side of the room and let him play with it...move 1 or 2ft closer...wait a few mins then another 1-2ft closer, when he starts growling etc back up just a tiny bit and wait a few mins then edge closer again, because your doing it very slowly he wont be half as wary and will prob ignore you after a while and he wont see it as a threat when your up close enough to him. the 1st time id get maybe 5-6ft away and just sit there dont attempt to touch him etc, the next time he does it do the same.... but get within 3ft... depending how he reacts you may be able to stroke him the 1st or 2nd time...if not just keep doing it until you can stroke him or play with him, after a few times of him letting you edge closer and stroke/play try attempting to remove it from him, prob not a bad idea to teach him again now his toys/food is yours....when he is not in a mood of course...just take a toy off him, when he is eating take a handful of food or take the bowl away... see how he reacts. iv only ever done it with pups so no danger posed and they learned there place so as a adult we could all take toys out there mouth.... my boxer only go a bit mean once with a toy and i just held his front and back leg and pulled them out so he was on his back (it doesnt hurt them) and he stopped right away and looked all sad and licked me to say sorry....never happend again, its better than pinning them down and grabbing there throat (some ppl do that as the mothers do it there pups) but take the slow approach a few ft every 10 mins... iv done it with nasty dogs who are human aggressive and it took hours but the same day i managed to get close enough to stroke them and problem was solved that same day.



Thats old school advice, reward based training has been proven to be far more effective.


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## bobberbiker (Apr 7, 2010)

dont ask for advice if you cant be botherd to read it all then, im telling you now it will work iv done it many times and it was passed down to me from my old breeder 14yrs ago who has judged shows, had dogs win cruffs etc she knows what she is talking about and it doesnt hurt taking there legs out, it hurts more biting it back ... which people do quite alot. it is old school but it works, reward points work too for sure...but would be hard to try it with a dog who wont let you near him when he has food/toy, if he was just scared etc then totally different but the issue here is the toy/food dominance and control, most people would risk being bit and pin the dog down so it backs down....i dont agree with that though. and its not dangerous approaching it 1-2ft every 10 mins... like i said he will not be botherd after a while so move a little closer...if he does growl back away 2ft for 10 mins and try move another 2ft closer....slowly. when i do this its with human agressive dogs so i have water and food with me which calms them slightly and they see im aproaching to benefit them with food/water not to harm....but not much point doing this with food/water since he has a toy and has ate etc, another possibilty could be built up energy but doesnt seem likely. seems lik hes at the age of testing his pack status. fair play for attempting to work through it i know alot of ppl who will shoot there dog if it shows any real agression...someones german shepard snapped and bit there hand a few weeks ago on facebook...so his status said he took it to a field and shot it, he was heartbroken having to do it but in his mind its not worth taking a chance when he has kids around knowing it could snap again at any point


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## bobberbiker (Apr 7, 2010)

oh btw taking its food is a MUST for anyone with children...what if your little kid approached the dog whilst eating, or picked up food from its bowl whilst its eating.... more than likely the dog would snap if its never been taught to share food and that his food is your food....thats why we did it with our dog as a pup and for another 2 or so years after...the dog wasnt botherd in the slightest and anyone could touch him whilst eating, take food from him, take toys from him etc.... its all down to safety even more so than showing the dog hes bottom of the pack


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

bobberbiker said:


> oh btw taking its food is a MUST for anyone with children...what if your little kid approached the dog whilst eating, or picked up food from its bowl whilst its eating.... more than likely the dog would snap if its never been taught to share food and that his food is your food....thats why we did it with our dog as a pup and for another 2 or so years after...the dog wasnt botherd in the slightest and anyone could touch him whilst eating, take food from him, take toys from him etc.... its all down to safety even more so than showing the dog hes bottom of the pack


Pack theory has been pretty much disproved these days, a dog understands the difference between dogs and humans. If you never take the dogs food then you never create the guarding behaviour. Besides that, you shouldn't be leaving small children alone with a dog or letting them eat dog food.


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

bobberbiker said:


> oh btw taking its food is a MUST for anyone with children...what if your little kid approached the dog whilst eating, or picked up food from its bowl whilst its eating.... more than likely the dog would snap if its never been taught to share food and that his food is your food....thats why we did it with our dog as a pup and for another 2 or so years after...the dog wasnt botherd in the slightest and anyone could touch him whilst eating, take food from him, take toys from him etc.... its all down to safety even more so than showing the dog hes bottom of the pack


No... What you should be doing is adding food, so that the dog associates hands going into its bowl with reward. I started doing it the way you done it, but after starting dog training they told me to do it the opposite way so that hands into their bowl was associated with extra food (reward) I had my son taking food bowls off the dog and all sorts, was informed that wasn't good training done some research online to back it up and now every couple fo days I get my 2 year old to put his hand in the bowl with extra food to drop in. 

I know your only putting forward advice that often works and has done for years, but just because it worked does not mean it was best. 15 years agog (and less and even now) people were feeding Green Iguana's meat, we done our research and learned that can kill them.... new research (proven research) does come round and can be helpful. It would be silly to ignore it.


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## bobberbiker (Apr 7, 2010)

pack theory all depends on breeds, some breeds (mainly mastinos) still have breed traits which hasnt been bred out of them, and i said we did it for safety...not pack status.

you could add food sure it would work as the dog think its being rewarded extra food..... but what if 1 day it decided i dont want extra food or your hand in my bowl.... thats why i keep it old school and show the dog it can be taken away at any point if you become over protective of it, i didnt just take a handful of food and walk off lol it was done over 2yrs slowly fading out to the kids stroking him whilst eating...not touching his food...but if he growled then id take his bowl away for 5 mins and try again until he stopped growling. it may not ork for everyone but i found for larger breeds it works great, of course we might of just got lucky and had a soft dog who would of never shown agression if we took his toys and food even without training as a pup but i think its worth doing.


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## Mrs Mental (May 5, 2009)

I realise the thread has gone a little off topic but just wanted to say on the 'food guarding' issue. I've always taken food away from our dogs, not in a callous or rough way and they've always been rewarded when they've allowed it. All 3 of my dogs will stop eating on a one word command and not resume until told, same as they will stop and allow me to take their bowls away from them when/if I wanted/needed to.

They have not been trained in the old school way of MY WAY or else type training as I dont believe ANY animal learns from being scared into respecting its owner. I believe animals, like children, learn from a hand gesture, a smile, a tone of voice, a pat, stroke, love and caer of some sort.

Anyways sorry Freeky a bit slightly wonky from the original topic there but just wanted my tuppence worth.

I really do hope the behavourist gets the pup sorted out - he sounds like a nice little chappy but as I said I would be worried with regards to peoples, especially the childrens safety. And yes of course a child, whatever age it is, shouldn't be left alone or in charge of any animal. Animals are far too unpredictable. : victory:

ETA - my spelling is atrocious lol


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## Corsetts (Dec 8, 2008)

Our new rescue had quite bad guarding issues.

We got around it on the end by following similar principles as advised above.
Wander past the dog (don't look at it) whilst it's guarding with a small but tasty treat (bit of cheese, ham, sausage or something worthwhile) and just drop it in front of the dog as you pass.

Resource guarding is a very natural thing for a dog to do, so the theory of the above is that the dog will associate your approach with something positive and instead of his item being taken away, he gets something better.

In time (and it didn't take at all long with ours) the dog will get excited as you approach when he's guarding and you should be able to progress to swapping what he's guarding for something else.

Anyway, it worked for us, and although our dog will have the odd grumble at times if you get to close when she has something valuable, it's at a stage where it's just not a problem.

We had to get on top of it though, with my Daughter in the house and a rescue dog with unknown background, we couldn't take any chances and it was quite intimidating when she was guarding something!


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## Corsetts (Dec 8, 2008)

The only problem with taking the item off the dog is that you're just reinforcing the fear that that is exactly what will happen! he's worried about losing the item in the first place, hence the guarding


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

hehe thats ok 

He is an amazing doggy, i love him with all my heart. Its horrible to see, because you can see he is scared, and worried..

The training currently is ..

cut up his favourite sausages in to bite size pieces! put his empty bow, in the middle of the room, get all excited and happy, so maxi gets excited and wags his tail. I then say sit, wait, and then put my hand in the bowl with the sausage. I then say take it, and make happy noises. 

What happens then is he eats it, its gone from, his whole body changing, his tail going down his ears going down, to his tail being half up, and coming to see me after eating it. 

We are trying to get him to understand that eating is a fun and enjoyable thing - and im in charge of when he gets it..

it then gets harder and harder...


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## Hashcake (Nov 23, 2011)

animalsbeebee said:


> This sounds like a classic case of a dominant type of dog and submissive owners,dogs are like nearly every animal on the planet,if they see weakness they will take charge,have had dominant breeds all my life,the last 20 years with akitas.These are a very strong willed dog and i have to be dominant over them,some breeds of dogs do not need this,but some definately do.My answer would contradict everyone else so i wont say it,and if the owners are not taught to take charge it will get worse ,to the point they can't go in the same room.


Have to agree with this but would go further and say it's not necessarily down to the breed.
I had a GSD, as a puppy, at first, she would snarl and bare her teeth if you got to close to her when she had an item belonged to her or not.
My current dog was two when I go her from a rescue and she is a cross between a cocker spaniel and a golden retriever and did exactly the same when I got her.
My opinion is that the dog is trying to possessive of the object and once it has be taught who really is the master, it will eventually accept this.
When it comes to training I personally loath methods like using choke chains and have always found great success with treat based rewards.

OP, I know you said the dog was fussy with food when it was younger, but is there any type of dog treat that it really likes?
For fussy dogs a great treat is to bake some liver with garlic (smells foul to us but with a dogs higher sense of smell, they tend to love it) then cut it into small pieces, my GSD went mad for these as a pup and she was very fussy.
If you can get the dog really interested in something like this, could be worth seeing if the dog responds when offered them when it is being possessive over an item.
However, it will probably only be effective if the dog has a non food related item.
I think with perseverance you can overcome this between you and the owners.
Another quick thought about the puppy training classes the dog has been to, did they teach you / the owners to talk to it in a voice like you would to a baby or small child?
Baby talk is excellent for encouraging a puppy when training, just like a strong, stern voice does with they are misbehaving.
I'm sure many know or have read that dogs can react to our emotions, so the same applies to the tone of out voice.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

bobberbiker said:


> pack theory all depends on breeds, some breeds (mainly mastinos) still have breed traits which hasnt been bred out of them, and i said we did it for safety...not pack status.


It doesn't at all, dogs do not live in packs in the wild regardless of breed, they are not pack animals, do not have a hierarchy, it's just made up.
What does happen when you repeatedly abuse the dog by pinning it down, pulling it's legs out, stealing it's food, and all that other daft stuff is you end up with a dog who has shut down psychologically. They will let you do anything because you have taught them that they are helpless and can do nothing to avoid this treatment. 
These are dogs who can one day snap and savage someone.
We've learned this through years of research conducted by a massive amount of people. We now have better ways to train animals and should use them.


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

I would go with adding small amounts of food to his bowl at a time, and also just 'sprinkling' hand-fulls of food on the floor so that he takes longer to eat it and find it, he'll be more interested in finding his food than growling at you, and also you are providing the food slowly so you _have_ to be there. 
My dog gets fed in the bathroom (mainly because my child kept tipping his water everywhere), but it's also good to keep them in a quiet place to eat it at their own pace. 

If you keep on taking a dogs food away eventually it might snap if it's hungry, especially if you take it and don't give it back. :|

ETA: Even with wolves... people get pack theory wrong, pack leader does not eat first, pups do, you are supposed to provide for your pack, not take their food.


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## Hashcake (Nov 23, 2011)

freekygeeky said:


> What happens then is he eats it, its gone from, his whole body changing, his tail going down his ears going down, to his tail being half up, and coming to see me after eating it.


When his posture changes and he comes to see you after eating, do you speak to him in an excited voice and give him lots of fuss?
If so, does he not react to this and get all happy?


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## bobberbiker (Apr 7, 2010)

corsetts when we take away we always give it back and make a fuss of him etc and we rarely take away only wen he shows agression which he never did other than growl once when we put hand in the bowl then once he realised if he growls he will get it taken away he stopped. 

is the dogs tail down when he shows agression it means he is scared, if its up hes angry :lol2:


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## Hashcake (Nov 23, 2011)

em_40 said:


> ETA: Even with wolves... people get pack theory wrong, pack leader does not eat first, pups do, you are supposed to provide for your pack, not take their food.


Off topic slightly so sorry for this.
I recently discovered that a young male fox will take food back to the den and give it to his sister before eating himself.
Unlike wolves, I don't think the male hangs around once he'd done the deed (someone please correct me if I am wrong) so I think it's even more interesting to learn that the males take care of their sisters.


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## bobberbiker (Apr 7, 2010)

devi thats not true at all, ALL dogs regardless of breeds has to have 1 dominant....maybe pack is a wrong word but if you have 2 dogs...1 will be dominant, if you go to a park and theres 5 dogs playing 1 will be dominant.

taking food, and laying the dog on its back isnt cruel and doesnt hurt and doesnt turn the dog in a wimp, my dog would go for us if we fight eachother, if i was shouting at my brother the dog would jump between us, try and bite me etc....a scared dog wouldnt do that it would cower at a loud voice, we nevr shouted at the dog either everything we did was with a smile and a soft voice then praise him after


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

I think so much emphasis is being put on food,this dog is possesive with other items and it will escalate,this is a dog/owner issue.It is taking over slowly but surely.Have dealt with many cruelty cases of starvation and neglect,this does not produce food proud behaviour,it is in the make up of the individual dog.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

bobberbiker said:


> devi thats not true at all, ALL dogs regardless of breeds has to have 1 dominant....maybe pack is a wrong word but if you have 2 dogs...1 will be dominant, if you go to a park and theres 5 dogs playing 1 will be dominant.


That is complete poppycock, made up many years ago by people who didn't know any better. People once thought the earth was flat, but now we realise it's not true. Same with the above theory.


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Devi said:


> That is complete poppycock, made up many years ago by people who didn't know any better. People once thought the earth was flat, but now we realise it's not true. Same with the above theory.


Was it Kare who studied dingo packs in the wild, this was one study disproving pack theory, there have been many more.


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## bobberbiker (Apr 7, 2010)

get a mastino type and we will see bud, my friend has a neo which is 14 stone and sat down he is taller than her cooker/kitchen worktops...he is the biggest dog iv ever seen, she had to introduce her children over months through a stairgate because he was trying to be dominant over them and hes only allowed around them after hes been exercised and ate etc, mastinos have all there old traits still in them they havent been bred out. if she hadnt been dominant with that dog so he knew his place can you imagine how it would end...shes 8 stone and he is 14 stone of muscle and taller than her if he stood up lol. not only is size a issue but his breed traits and dominance is one of them aswell as guarding (naturally)


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## Corsetts (Dec 8, 2008)

Just to add, don't go to hung up over the Ceaser Millan type dominance theories.
They're based on a deeply flawed study that relied on a group of wolves, all unknown to each other, being forced to live together.
It was assumed that the behavior they showed was of a typical pack, but of course it wasn't as it wasn't a pack that had evolved into a family unit.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Devi said:


> That is complete poppycock, made up many years ago by people who didn't know any better. People once thought the earth was flat, but now we realise it's not true. Same with the above theory.


I agree it is poppycock. If you take a bunch of dogs and try to pin down who is in charge it would be very variable. One could be thought to be dominant in one aspect and another in other aspects.

If you get one dog that is always trying to assert itself over other dogs it in reality is probably just a badly balanced dog, and yet for generations people have been rewarding this behaviour and treating that dog as the head of their pack. Any group of canines in the wild and this bossy dog would die out as it would be excluded from the group.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

bobberbiker said:


> get a mastino type and we will see bud, my friend has a neo which is 14 stone and sat down he is taller than her cooker/kitchen worktops...he is the biggest dog iv ever seen, she had to introduce her children over months through a stairgate because he was trying to be dominant over them and hes only allowed around them after hes been exercised and ate etc, mastinos have all there old traits still in them they havent been bred out. if she hadnt been dominant with that dog so he knew his place can you imagine how it would end...shes 8 stone and he is 14 stone of muscle and taller than her if he stood up lol. not only is size a issue but his breed traits and dominance is one of them aswell as guarding (naturally)


I volunteered at my first rescue at 10 years old and I'm not exactly a large person now, I've handled dogs more than twice my size dozens of times who come straight off the street or from homes where they are neglected and abused. Yet somehow I've not met a single one who has shown 'dominance', because it doesn't exist. 
Maybe try reading a few up to date training books?


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## bobberbiker (Apr 7, 2010)

thats your opinion from what iv seen i disagree but each to there own, it doesnt matter anyway does it? i dont reward or punish for what i see as dominance. the whole taking food/toys was for safety so kids wouldnt get bit if they took toys or food etc as there to young to know any different


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

bobberbiker said:


> thats your opinion from what iv seen i disagree but each to there own


If it's been proven by science then it's not an opinion, it's a fact.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

if one of my dogs snaps at me... they get their smacked...

and i'd dare them to do it again...

bite=smacked...

they learn quickly...


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## Corsetts (Dec 8, 2008)

HABU said:


> if one of my dogs snaps at me... they get their smacked...
> 
> and i'd dare them to do it again...
> 
> ...


Why do they snap at you though? could be fear from the thought of being smacked...


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## bobberbiker (Apr 7, 2010)

all your teaching it is to fear people, so it will either be shy and cowardly...then one day rip your throat out cus its had enough, or it will be human agressive.

Devi...what would you say this was?
my bros g/f's dad took his english bull terrier to a EBT walkathon... his dog walked through a crowd of over 20 dogs headbutting them all to make way for him and stood in the centre happy with himself.... thats pack status to me. if one got to close he would headbutt it away, once the walking started he was fine and playing with them...but when it ended...same thing he butted them all out the way to make himself seen in the centre. hes not dog agressive etc he lives with other dogs...and he is the boss at home to.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

let a dog just get it's way and bite people at will?

my dogs don't bite... i can take their food away at anytime...

they know what will surely happen if they ever snap at anyone... all hell will break loose...and they will always lose...

my dogs aren't allowed to own anything...

my pup has tried to take my big dog's food while she was eating... and my big dog put her in place... but good... now she waits till the big dogs finishes... otherwise all hell will break loose from my big dog and she'll lose...

same with me... there are rules in my home... show aggression and serious aggression is what you'll get...


pretty simple... bite and you'll pay...


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## bobberbiker (Apr 7, 2010)

no there are other ways to disapline rather than smacking

it will work of course but the dog will fear you which im sure you dont want.
people prefer to be respected than feared...the ones who are feared usually end up dead because fear pushes people to act in ways they normally wouldnt


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

This is not from fear,its testing its owners,pushing its luck,like habu said,the very first time it showed agression it should have been put in its place.I think there are dog behaviourist with the same attitude as the "dont smack children " brigade.There is a massive difference from a smack to beating.My akitas live with children and other animals,when i give a command they should obey.If this was not the case because of their type i would have trouble on my hands.As i said before,they work you out.My dogs respect me,not fear me.Certain breeds of dogs don't suit certain people.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

bobberbiker said:


> all your teaching it is to fear people, so it will either be shy and cowardly...then one day rip your throat out cus its had enough, or it will be human agressive.
> 
> Devi...what would you say this was?
> my bros g/f's dad took his english bull terrier to a EBT walkathon... his dog walked through a crowd of over 20 dogs headbutting them all to make way for him and stood in the centre happy with himself.... thats pack status to me. if one got to close he would headbutt it away, once the walking started he was fine and playing with them...but when it ended...same thing he butted them all out the way to make himself seen in the centre. hes not dog agressive etc he lives with other dogs...and he is the boss at home to.


That's a badly behaved dog. Seriously who let's their dog be aggressive to every dog it meets and sees no issue in it? Would you let your child walk through a playground thumping every kid it saw? Of course not.


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## Corsetts (Dec 8, 2008)

HABU said:


> let a dog just get it's way and bite people at will?


Well, no... but, if you don't smack your dogs then maybe they'll stop snapping at you.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

this is turning into such an interesting thread as there are two lines of thought going on and each kind of contradicts the other BUT each has people who advocate it as having worked for them.
My dad was in the school of thought that bobber and beebee are.. a dog should respect and obey a human straight away... he used a smack as a means of punishment...
now according to him, that dog was the best dog he ever owned... it wouldnt touch its food unless told to, it dodnt move unless told to, etc...
i am not sure what line i would follow to be honest...


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## Corsetts (Dec 8, 2008)

animalsbeebee said:


> This is not from fear,its testing its owners,pushing its luck,like habu said,the very first time it showed agression it should have been put in its place.I think there are dog behaviourist with the same attitude as the "dont smack children " brigade.There is a massive difference from a smack to beating.My akitas live with children and other animals,when i give a command they should obey.If this was not the case because of their type i would have trouble on my hands.As i said before,they work you out.My dogs respect me,not fear me.Certain breeds of dogs don't suit certain people.


I disagree.

A sharp command from a respected owner should stop a dog in it's tracks (same as a warning growl)
Just my opinion anyway.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Corsetts said:


> Well, no... but, if you don't smack your dogs then maybe they'll stop snapping at you.


he didnt say they snap at him... he said IF they were to snap at him...
i think what habu is saying is, should one have a pop he'll give it a smack.
NOT, that his dogs snap all the time...


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## Corsetts (Dec 8, 2008)

Rach1 said:


> this is turning into such an interesting thread as there are two lines of thought going on and each kind of contradicts the other BUT each has people who advocate it as having worked for them.
> My dad was in the school of thought that bobber and beebee are.. a dog should respect and obey a human straight away... he used a smack as a means of punishment...
> now according to him, that dog was the best dog he ever owned... it wouldnt touch its food unless told to, it dodnt move unless told to, etc...
> i am not sure what line i would follow to be honest...


Don't get me wrong, the old school training does work, and is efficient but probably in spite of the training rather than because of it.

Did anyone see that documentary the other day on dog behavior? fascinating stuff and they made the point that all military dogs are now trained using reward based training because it's simply a lot more effective.


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## Corsetts (Dec 8, 2008)

Rach1 said:


> he didnt say they snap at him... he said IF they were to snap at him...
> i think what habu is saying is, should one have a pop he'll give it a smack.
> NOT, that his dogs snap all the time...


There's the thing... 
He infers that is what would happen if one snapped, but they don't snap? so it just doesn't tie up.

My dog won't snap at me, so I don't need to worry about it as we spent a lot of time training her


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

aggressive dogs get executed because the aggression and possessiveness usually grows over time because the dog sees that it works...

nip it in the bud... aggressive dogs get sent to the pound because their owners can't deal with it anymore... the bad habits get deeply ingrained over time...

the pound ends up putting the animal down...

enforcing boundaries and teaching a dog what is acceptable behavior and what is not will often save a dog's life...

no means no... teach a dog the rules early... and if it challenges you or attacks others... teach it the penalty and the fact that it will never win...

you don't need to beat a dog... but dogs are physical... watch adult dogs around puppies... the adult dogs put pups in their place... it's what dogs understand..

let a dog get away with bad behavior and that also teaches them things... that aggression works and they can get away with whatever they want...

don't respect strong owners... weak owners get owned by the dog over time... then they become spoiled brats... then they die by lethal injection...


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## Corsetts (Dec 8, 2008)

Someone we know is very old school with his dog training, firmly believes in giving them a good hiding to let them know who's boss and likes to dominate his dog.

All was fine for several Years until a couple of weeks ago when it savaged one of his Daughters and was destroyed yet the dog had never shown any signs of aggression before. Makes you think...


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

we have a very BIG old tyme... weighty and strong...now generally he is good but odd times he will try to throw his weight around...
he is unnutered at present as we may breed him in the future...
what would be the best way to deal with him?
I tend to use my voice and he does respond well but on accasion we need to use the rolled up paper...NOT to hit him, but rustling it makes him stop and listen!
only thing that does...LOL
big wuss!
LOL


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## Corsetts (Dec 8, 2008)

HABU said:


> aggressive dogs get executed because the aggression and possessiveness usually grows over time because the dog sees that it works...
> 
> nip it in the bud... aggressive dogs get sent to the pound because their owners can't deal with it anymore... the bad habits get deeply ingrained over time...
> 
> ...


They don't though :2wallbang:

Have you EVER seen a dog BITE a puppy for stepping out of line? No, they don't. A snarl, a threatening gesture yes but they won't bite them which is what a smack represents.

Anyway, this thread is going way O/T now, apologies to the OP :blush:


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Rach1 said:


> we have a very BIG old tyme... weighty and strong...now generally he is good but odd times he will try to throw his weight around...
> he is unnutered at present as we may breed him in the future...
> what would be the best way to deal with him?
> I tend to use my voice and he does respond well but on accasion we need to use the rolled up paper...NOT to hit him, but rustling it makes him stop and listen!
> ...


Thats distraction technique, take his mind off what he's doing, it breaks his concentration and allows you to get a command in. Is similar to what that ceasaer guy does, when he taps the dogs with his heel. He does not hurt them just distracts them.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Corsetts said:


> They don't though :2wallbang:
> 
> Have you EVER seen a dog BITE a puppy for stepping out of line? No, they don't. A snarl, a threatening gesture yes but they won't bite them which is what a smack represents.
> 
> Anyway, this thread is going way O/T now, apologies to the OP :blush:


i never said anything about biting your dog...

jeez!... a smack isn't a bite... dogs will snap at a pup... pin it down if needed... with the pups neck in the big dog's jaws...

a pup usually ends up screaming and running for safety...

and a pup with bad habits will grow and watch what dogs do to a grown dog with bad habits... a fight... bites... blood...

let some little dog try to bite my big dog... my big dog will tear it a new one... kill it if she has to...

dogs will fight... maul one another... usually because one doesn't have manners...

pups become dogs... bad habits get worse... then the bad dog messes with another dog... the wrong dog... and the bad dog gets torn to shreds...


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## Corsetts (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm done here...


If anyone does want to learn about dog training, please just read up on it and/or get some advice from a respected professional. 
Don't hit your dog, you won't like it when they eventually hit you back...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Corsetts said:


> I'm done here...
> 
> 
> If anyone does want to learn about dog training, please just read up on it and/or get some advice from a respected professional.
> Don't hit your dog, you won't like it when they eventually hit you back...


my crazy dog used to bite everyone and everything... till it bit me... and met it's match... got it's ass whipped... now she's sweet as pie... loves everyone...

she learned the penalty of aggression... her former owners never taught her rules... typical spoiled fi-fi dog... she thought she was boss and owned everything... i ended up with her because she was unmanageable... bit everyone...

not anymore... she's happy now... she doesn't have the stress of being the boss with weak owners anymore... i'm the boss... she can relax now...

dogs don't like being the boss... a strong owner takes that anxiety away...

my fi-fi dog is an angel now... a totally different dog... mellow... not possessive... not aggressive...


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

I am really struggling with understanding habus posts, but I think it's safe to say that you shouldn't hit your animals. You are your pets caretaker and should be the one keeping it safe not starting fights with it. 
In addition as has been said, dogs who have been punished physically are much more likely to bite. It's obvious really, someone hits you then you hit them back.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Devi said:


> I am really struggling with understanding habus posts, but I think it's safe to say that you shouldn't hit your animals. You are your pets caretaker and should be the one keeping it safe not starting fights with it.
> In addition as has been said, dogs who have been punished physically are much more likely to bite. It's obvious really, someone hits you then you hit them back.


you shouldn't have to hit your dog...

teaching them early that there are lines you can cross and get punished makes for a happy dog...

like kids... you shouldn't hit your kids... or need to if you teach them that there are boundaries...

kids who think that they can be aggressive and get away with it one day meet a cop with a club... and learn the hard way that life has rules and boundaries ...

teach pups and kids that they live under rules and cannot get away with bad behaviors...











why is this cop beating this guy?

you shouldn't hit people i thought?... why do cops?

maybe some people weren't taught right... the cops will teach them...

dogs get executed... when they aren't raised right...


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## Hashcake (Nov 23, 2011)

Corsetts said:


> Did anyone see that documentary the other day on dog behavior? fascinating stuff and they made the point that all military dogs are now trained using reward based training because it's simply a lot more effective.


I never saw it but I find it very interesting.
Back in 1996 when I had my GSD, I used to walk her in a big local park and one day the police has sectioned part of it off so they could use it for dog training.
I saw one clueless handler who was clueless with how to use a choke chain correctly.
I never have and never will used a choke chain on my dogs, I think they are nasty and I've seen too many people over the years using them incorrectly.
I wanted to say something to the police but it would have been pointless.
However, around the same time, Dr. Roger Mugford published a book where he worked along side the police and not only proved treat based reward is far more effective, he also trained the dogs quicker.
So if the military and police have finally switched to treat based reward training, then I for one am pleased that they have taken note and listened.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Corsetts said:


> There's the thing...
> He infers that is what would happen if one snapped, but they don't snap? so it just doesn't tie up.
> 
> My dog won't snap at me, so I don't need to worry about it as we spent a lot of time training her


I agree, my dog would never snap at me so there is little point me taking time to decide what to do "when it happens"

I am a female, maybe not a girly girl but fairly feminine and yet I have a German shepherd and have fostered many others and had no problems without striking a single one. (Those that have read my posts on this subject before will know I have hit my dog once, when she saw a sheep and jerked forward before stopping herself and in the process pulled me over on a wet slate path in Cornwall, a lot was learnt from me hitting her, but it was all by me....I learnt I am a complete ass when I am embarrassed and in pain and try never to do it again!)

In fact both my rescue dogs are trained so well without once hitting them or otherwise hurting them that they are visiting the elderly in care homes once or twice a week and the most problems we have ever had is the one time my GSD barked just one bark at a carehomes doorbell and startled someone.


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## Corsetts (Dec 8, 2008)

Habu, In my opinion you're making a big mistake by keep comparing dogs with people.
Dogs aren't people, dogs are dogs.

FWIW I'm a big believer in smacking kids. Not beating them, but a tap on the hand when young teaches them their boundaries.
Parents smacking children (and even people clumping each other) is a natural thing, it's how we function. But, we're not dogs.

Anyway, it works for me and our little rescue who 10 Months ago had some serious behavioral issues is now making regular visits to a home for people suffering Alzheimers, and she's very well received there


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

hmmm, I'm obviously pretty mixed :? I suggest using the reward based method but still I do 'smack' my dog, I'd never smack my kid.

I don't smack to hurt my dog, or as punishment though, but he is occasionally dog agressive and if he ignores my 'leave it' and lunges at a dog it will get a tap on the bum and an 'oi', I could not hurt him by tapping him, he just remembers that he isn't supposed to be doing that. If he does walk by nicely though he gets praise and fuss. I didn't have him from a puppy though, in an ideal world he would never have been dog agressive in the first place.


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

corsetts is spot on to a point and when talking about your average breed then violence is never a option with working / very hard breeds a pinch collar may be required by a experianced handler simply to apply a correction the dog will actually respond too but your average pet this is completely un-nessercary and hitting dogs teachs them to disrespect not respect this is extremely well documented...

as em_40's example above its worth noting that hitting is a loose term and to strike a dog within its pain tolerance whilst worked into any state of high drive as a correction when the drive state dictates the dog will otherwise ignore your command... that is not beating a dog that is perfectly expectable, responsible and the same time i'd be correcting via a prong/pinch collar... rewards are for positive re-enforcement up in any high drive breed with all the love in the world if the dont listen they need correcting or will never learn a thing my dogs do not resent or fear a correction and com willingly and happily to sit for me to fit there collars be it flat or prong collar and that is not the response of a mistreated fearful animal... 

as for a response to the OP and getting this back on topic. there is a leerburg dvd titled Leerburg Dealing with Aggressive and Dominant Dogs... it covers everything you need to know and ill pm you the link to torrent... :whistling2:


THE DIFFERENCE IS KIDS SHOULD FEAR THERE PARENTS! A FEARFUL DOG WILL BITE BE IT STRANGER, DOG OR EVEN HANDLER FEAR LEADS TO AGGRESSION AND AGGRESSION ONLY IN DOGS....


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

DavieB said:


> Thats distraction technique, take his mind off what he's doing, it breaks his concentration and allows you to get a command in. Is similar to what that ceasaer guy does, when he taps the dogs with his heel. He does not hurt them just distracts them.


Davie, not you....... please tell me your not a Ceasar Milan fan?!?!?! :gasp: His heel kicks may not hurt the dogs (though I have seen some dogs yelp at it!) but his jabs to dog;s necks & flanks do, as I've seen many dogs yelp, large breeds included! :bash:


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

i own a few of his dvds mainly cos some stuff he says has point and other is pure cruelty but some stuff he says with really agro dogs he has a point few on national media get away with making... 

i think his accent and demeanor is a bit creepy and he makes me giggly tho really wouldn't be surprised if he touches kids one day and gets sent to jail, duno why he seems the type...


that vicky lady fro its me or the dog however... hmm ill take two please!!! shes pretty good at tell the owners its all them and sorting them out which to be fair is 90% the battle...


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

ermgravy said:


> i own a few of his dvds mainly cos some stuff he says has point and other is pure cruelty but some stuff he says with really agro dogs he has a point few on national media get away with making...
> 
> i think his accent and demeanor is a bit creepy and he makes me giggly tho really wouldn't be surprised if he touches kids one day and gets sent to jail, duno why he seems the type...
> 
> ...


I'd love him to jab one of my dogs - he'd have the jabbing arm removed & shoved up his arse by me! Then I'd take pleasure in knocking out his luminious teeth! :devil:

Victoria Stilwell is so much better! :2thumb:


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## Mrs Mental (May 5, 2009)

ermgravy said:


> *THE DIFFERENCE IS KIDS SHOULD FEAR THERE PARENTS!* A FEARFUL DOG WILL BITE BE IT STRANGER, DOG OR EVEN HANDLER FEAR LEADS TO AGGRESSION AND AGGRESSION ONLY IN DOGS....


 
:gasp::gasp::gasp: NO NO NO NO NO NO!

Are you actually stating this as a fact that you believe to be correct???

A child should respect its parents, other people and him/herself NOT live in fear of them. Jesus christ!!! I cant even begin to rant on this one so am going to leave it here I think. :devil::devil::devil:


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

yes id have done a lot better having had a father and some fear in my life at a earlier age! i respected my mum still walked all over her for years im embarrassed to say and haver a complete disrespect for authority figures...


and your nanny state attitudes to kids are going to eff this world up... same as any joe running big working breeds will lead to mishaps the latest generations of kifdsa need a belt... all the time there are kids under 18 with firearms in there hands parents as a whole are failing end of... 20years ago this was NOT the case...


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> I'd love him to jab one of my dogs - he'd have the jabbing arm removed & shoved up his arse by me! Then I'd take pleasure in knocking out his luminious teeth! :devil:
> 
> Victoria Stilwell is so much better! :2thumb:


dont get me wrong id let him try working bear then when bear eats part of him on first physical contact stand over his mutilated body in hysterics telling him he got whats coming and thats karma... :2thumb:


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> I'd love him to jab one of my dogs - he'd have the jabbing arm removed & shoved up his arse by me! Then I'd take pleasure in knocking out his luminious teeth! :devil:
> 
> Victoria Stilwell is so much better! :2thumb:


I think there is a vast difference between Milan and Stilwell. The First I would call a behaviourist and IMO he should be restricted from dealing with minor issues as he is far too heavy handed, but for problems where it is life and death I think he has his place. In a country where far fewer people seem to have good dog sense (those with pet dogs I mean, those in the country areas working dogs I am sure are different) and you hear of so many dogs that when they start having an issue the owners simply stop walking them I think his three principles are very good to get out there.

Stilwell is just a basic trainer. I don't think she was even that good or helpful, she states the complete obvious to clients who know jack, but never helps or could help anything serious IMO. I detest Stillwell, especially when she does her "you must eat first thing" where she fake nibbles out of the bowl and her dog impressions. Man she annoys the tits off of me. 

I liked Mic Martin...I think his training was good, but didnt care much....that wasn't why I liked him :flrt:


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

lol so we have a male female dog trainer divide based purely on not how compitant there skills are but all about the ass envolved and sex of the poster... oh its just another morn on rfuk.... :whistling2: :lol2:

its good to watch any bitchy british lash whipping fat lazy dumb yanks into shape and she knows enough to sort the owners out as i already said...


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## Mrs Mental (May 5, 2009)

ermgravy said:


> yes id have done a lot better having had a father and some fear in my life at a earlier age! i respected my mum still walked all over her for years im embarrassed to say and haver a complete disrespect for authority figures...
> 
> 
> and your nanny state attitudes to kids are going to eff this world up... same as any joe running big working breeds will lead to mishaps the latest generations of kifdsa need a belt... all the time there are kids under 18 with firearms in there hands parents as a whole are failing end of... 20years ago this was NOT the case...


 
So you would have turned out a better adult if you had been scared of your Father and he had beaten you? 

You would have respected authority if you had been scared of your Father and he had beaten you?

Laughable! You are an adult (I'm presuming anyways??) so why do you still show a lack of respect for authority, don't you know any better at your age? Because you choose to thats why. Because you weren't taught to show the correct level of respect as a child.

I have never feared either of my parents and have not been beaten by either of them but I was brought up to respect both of them and any authority figures as were the majority of my peers. There are many many ways you can punish and discipline a child without having to resort to raising a hand to them - I have smacked both of my chidren when they were young, once each (I have two) and both times it was because of MY OWN inadequacies of dealing with the situation.

Aggression will, in my opinion, nearly always be met by aggression and violence does not solve anything.

I do understand what you are saying about some youngsters these days and the firearms etc cos as a parent I do worry about the safety of my children when they are out and yes I do think that respect isn't shown the same way it was when I was a teenager. Children and teenagers these days seem to be more aggressive but I certainly do not believe the way to sort that out is to beat them up.

On this one I think you and I will have to agree to disagree - it doesn't mean that either of us is wrong just that we have two very different viewpoints. 

: victory:


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

I would rant but it's off topic...

On topic (kinda) Victoria Stillwell feeds so many treats all the dogs she sees must get sooo fat. Her view seems to be if it isn't doing wrong, give it a treat. Milan I think hurts dogs. You can't use just one persons methods or another.

Never seen that other guy, who's he? -heads to google-


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

em_40 said:


> I would rant but it's off topic...
> 
> On topic (kinda) Victoria Stillwell feeds so many treats all the dogs she sees must get sooo fat. Her view seems to be if it isn't doing wrong, give it a treat. Milan I think hurts dogs. You can't use just one persons methods or another.
> 
> Never seen that other guy, who's he? -heads to google-


With early training, it's better to give more treats than less. You just feed a bit less to compensate. If the dog gets really excited about behaving well then that sticks, think about pavlovs dogs, they knew the bell meant food, so they started getting excited about the bell even when the food had gone. I'm not a great fan of victoria stillwell or cesar millan, both use fear in their methods and break down the trust between owner and dog. However the methods I use would not make good TV, Karen Pryor, Jean Donaldson, Patricia McConnel, you just make the dog do what you want by making him want to do it too, it's easy, calm and works.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Victoria Stilwell is so much better! :2thumb:


Is it me or has she got that school teacher vibe? :blush:


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

em_40 said:


> I would rant but it's off topic...
> 
> On topic (kinda) Victoria Stillwell feeds so many treats all the dogs she sees must get sooo fat. Her view seems to be if it isn't doing wrong, give it a treat. Milan I think hurts dogs. You can't use just one persons methods or another.
> 
> Never seen that other guy, who's he? -heads to google-


this is soo off topic i really dont want to be resonsible for another huge derailment this week :blush: but you are so wrong sod it:

i never said beat, but not to be able to slap your kid in public for fear of public reaction is a ridiculous situatiobn fpor a nation as broke morrally as ours to be in... 

the last three generations have been progressively worse and more disruptive, violent and antisocial this is well documented by various people including ofsted for god sake! 

why? not because of young parents, people have been having kids at 16 for hundreds of years only went out of fashion after ww2 not a new or problematic thing at all your all mad the issue as with aggressive dogs is the idiots who raise them and the way they are raised and conditioning given as children... dogs a fair moderate well understood correction is perfectly well placed and not to be throwned apon difference comes you can openly comunicate with a child, they talk back and understand a much vaster selection of words, so they issues you can correct are vaster and they have less reason to say they dont understand... 

rant over...


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## Mrs Mental (May 5, 2009)

ermgravy said:


> this is soo off topic i really dont want to be resonsible for another huge derailment this week :blush: but you are so wrong sod it:
> 
> i never said beat, but not to be able to slap your kid in public for fear of public reaction is a ridiculous situatiobn fpor a nation as broke morrally as ours to be in...
> 
> ...


 
I wont continue this here but if you'd like to am more than happy to continue our discussion in 18+

: victory:


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Zoo-Man said:


> Davie, not you....... please tell me your not a Ceasar Milan fan?!?!?! :gasp: His heel kicks may not hurt the dogs (though I have seen some dogs yelp at it!) but his jabs to dog;s necks & flanks do, as I've seen many dogs yelp, large breeds included! :bash:


Being honest I've never seen one show completely. My only point was tghats a distraction technique. 

I think to be fair my training is mainly reward, distraction is required to break bad behaviour and move them onto something else, with my dog a rustle or another noise, me shouting or giving a random command apart from his name is often enough to make him stop doing whatever he was doing, if it was not I'd give him a heel kick if required. Can't say I'm a fan of any "dog trainers" in particular but I will try to follow their advice if I think it will help.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

DavieB said:


> Being honest I've never seen one show completely. My only point was tghats a distraction technique.
> 
> I think to be fair my training is mainly reward, distraction is required to break bad behaviour and move them onto something else, with my dog a rustle or another noise, me shouting or giving a random command apart from his name is often enough to make him stop doing whatever he was doing, if it was not I'd give him a heel kick if required. Can't say I'm a fan of any "dog trainers" in particular but I will try to follow their advice if I think it will help.


A good distraction technique if you don't have treats on hand is either a well rehearsed command, 'sit' for example, or picking up something random and saying 'what's this?'. One of mine has a liking for car chasing and he get's shown a lot of leaves and stones, hehe.


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

My fella seems to be the 'dog whisperer' in our house, we have had three rescues and each he has trained purely with attention/affection. I appreciate we may have been lucky with our dogs, but bearing in mind our current dog is an american pitbull (registered exempt) who came to us a nervous wreck, and can now sit, stay (even when we put her food bowl down) lie down, wait, fetch, and even bark on command, he's done very well. Never laid a finger on her, and she can happily sit on the floor with my 7 year old for a stroke. he just spends an awful lot of time with them, the only reward is strokes and cuddles, and lots of 'baby-talk'. Undesirable behaviour had just been ignored. 

As I say, we have probably been lucky, but just sharing my experience.

Also, as a social worker, there are some very disturbing attitudes on here.


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Devi said:


> A good distraction technique if you don't have treats on hand is either a well rehearsed command, 'sit' for example, or picking up something random and saying 'what's this?'. One of mine has a liking for car chasing and he get's shown a lot of leaves and stones, hehe.


Thats what I meant by a random command, I didn't mean something tottally random, just a random command, wait, down, sit. These often work far better when he has started chsing a jogger or something along those lines. What I'd really like is for him to stop chasing joggers though lol. (He's not that bad btw, occasionally gives a little chase but never goes as far as to catch them.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Cesar Milan has some good methods but others are unacceptable in my eyes. I went to see him in Liverpool as my friend bought me a ticket, he seemed to be more of an entertainer than anything else. I prefer to take the best bits from all the trainers and put them together, I cant really say I prefer one over the other. I dont smack my dogs as such, more of a nudge so they pay attention but do grab a scruff now and then. My intention is never to hurt the dogs, the same way I never wanted to hurt my kids but they do need to pay attention when asked to do something.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

DavieB said:


> Thats what I meant by a random command, I didn't mean something tottally random, just a random command, wait, down, sit. These often work far better when he has started chsing a jogger or something along those lines. What I'd really like is for him to stop chasing joggers though lol. (He's not that bad btw, occasionally gives a little chase but never goes as far as to catch them.


The best way to stop it is to get a friend to play jogger, start them walking past but keep the dog amused, treats, training, favourite toy, whatever. Increase speed mega slow as not to trigger the chase behaviour, if you notice the dog even thinking about it, looking away, changing posture, anything, then it's too fast.
When he gets bored stop and start again another day.
Within 5 or 6 sessions over a few days you should be able to get someone running about with no issue.


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## gecko lady (Jun 26, 2010)

My dog did this when he was a puppy, we taught him that if we took something off him we would give him something else(of the same or higher reward) give him lots and lots of praise when he did this. If he didnt want to share and kept on with it we told him off with a sharp short no which did the trick and worked wonders, he doesnt show any possession anymore - however on the odd occasion he does now he gets a squirt of water on his face to stop it instantly before it eslcalates. May i also add that we talked to our trainer who set up this training program for us. Also make sure you keep on with it or he will never get the message


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

dogs just know good and bad... black and white...

off on...


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## samurai (Sep 9, 2009)

freekygeeky said:


> So the next step? What would you do?
> 
> As some of you know the family i work for have a dog, i'm with him Monday to Friday....
> 
> ...



If the dog is changing for the better with the advice from the behaviourist, like you've said his posture has improved, i would continue with the program they have set you. Has anything the dog is doing got worse since the you started training him this way? 

It would be interesting if you could film the dog interacting with people it knows even when theres no food around, as offering advice on how to train a dog that we can't even see to read how its feeling could be detrimental.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Devi said:


> One of mine has a liking for car chasing and he get's shown a lot of leaves and stones, hehe.


I laughed at this...do you ever wonder if your dog thinks you have a problem mentally. Like it is thinking on the inside "Mum I have told you what that is a million times" but just too polite to say? :flrt:

I do the same on woodland walks when I want to tire my dogs a little more, I point down a random path or bank and say "whats that" in the hope they think there is a squirrel or something down there and run around a bit. I am sure my dogs think I am a moron and are just humouring me!


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Kare said:


> I laughed at this...do you ever wonder if your dog thinks you have a problem mentally. Like it is thinking on the inside "Mum I have told you what that is a million times" but just too polite to say? :flrt:
> 
> I do the same on woodland walks when I want to tire my dogs a little more, I point down a random path or bank and say "whats that" in the hope they think there is a squirrel or something down there and run around a bit. I am sure my dogs think I am a moron and are just humouring me!


I think so, but then again, he's not the brightest penny in the box, so i'm not sure!


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## Corsetts (Dec 8, 2008)

HABU said:


> dogs just know good and bad... black and white...
> 
> off on...


:lol2:


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

i was thinking that...


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