# Azureus Eggs .. now what?!



## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

cant believe it, got home from an 80k ride and did the usual coco hut inspection in the vivs - i never get my hope ups...

however this time, i found some very strange looking jelly stuff in the azzey viv, managed to get a torch and make out at least 1 egg...fantastic! :2thumb: :2thumb: :2thumb:

anyway, my plan was going to be to leave them in for a couple days to ensure they are fertilised and then remove them - is that correct?

Thanks guys
J


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

cornish-j said:


> cant believe it, got home from an 80k ride and did the usual coco hut inspection in the vivs - i never get my hope ups...
> 
> However this time, i found some very strange looking jelly stuff in the azzey viv, managed to get a torch and make out at least 1 egg...fantastic! :2thumb: :2thumb: :2thumb:
> 
> ...



Keep Calm
and
Don't Panic


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

haha .. its exciting times Ron


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Nice one J.
Get them out and add a splash of water in the dish to keep them moist and slap a lid on them.
Put them in a safe place and play mummy while you wait for them to hatch out :2thumb:.

Mike


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

should i give it a couple days mike or just take them out asap?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi J.
No need to rush, but i`ve never seen eggs not fertilized right away, thats just me though.
But I have no doubt your anxious to get them out so you can look after them :lol2:.
If your not sure then just leave them till morning and they`ll be fine.

Mike


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I tend to leave eggs overnight now, as one time I pulled some that I could still see sperm on, and they failed. lol

Oh, and now is the time to save you a LOT of trouble and set yourself up a filtered and heated tadpole system. The tads will rocket through development compared to my vents. My Regina certainly did. 

Oh and grats. 

Ade


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Wolfenrook said:


> I tend to leave eggs overnight now, as one time I pulled some that I could still see sperm on, and they failed. lol
> 
> 
> Ade


Yea i`ve had that once, but fortunately All the eggs came through nicely.

Mike


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

heres some pics:


DSC_0022 by .JayD., on Flickr


DSC_0023 by .JayD., on Flickr


DSC_0024 by .JayD., on Flickr


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

a few quick questions, some i think i already know but want to confirm with the experts 

1. i assume the eggs dont need oxygen to develop?
2. what to put the tads in when ready? tadpole tea?
3. how to move each tad to the cup of tadtea/liquid?
4. how often to mist the eggs?
5. roughly the time taken to develop from eggs to tads ready to break from jelly?

think thats it for the moment


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

1. Yes they do, every living organism needs it. So no sealing them up in blocks of glass.

2. Tadpole tea is good stuff, it helps to keep funghus etc away, a lot of tinc breeders swear by it.

3. I use a teaspoon and just scoop the tad up with a bit of water from the petri dish.

4. Once a day, more if they are drying fast. Only enough though to keep the eggs moist, if they end up in standing water the jelly will disolve on you quite often and leave you with a 'premature' tadpole. Once they start hatching you can put a bit more water in there, makes it easier to get the tads out of the petri dish.

5. Not that long.

Seriously though, were I you I'd reconsider using isolated cups. It's very very hard to control the temperature in cups, and also likely that nitrogenous wastes will build up. As I have pointed out to others before, in nature there is ALWAYS a form of natural filtration there, for those that deposit in plants the plant itself will absorb the nitrogenous wastes, those that deposit in stagnant pools etc the soil etc will contain bacteria that do the same job. Both are subject to rainfall diluting the wastes as well. A tadpole system makes the job a LOT easier and is very simple to set up. All you need is a large low rub, a sheet of polystyrene, an aquarium heater, some form of filter and a bunch of plastic drinks cups with tiny holes in the bottom.

Ade


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

i assumed this was the case with regards to oxygen - why does everyone put the lid on a petri dish - surely they must be oxygen starved inside there?

also - one of the eggs has started turning a little white ish - should i remove asap?

thanks for all the advice Ade.


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

also, from the tadpole food section - what would you guys recommend along with the tadpole tea?

Fertilisers & Feeds Price List


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Petri dishes aren't usually air tight bud, at least plastic ones aren't, plus you let in even more air every time you remove the lid to spray. 

Regards the whitish egg, which bit is going white? If it's the jelly bit, then yeah odds are it's going mouldy. If it's the black part, wait and make sure it's not dividing.

Foods, I use Dendrovit, Tetra-Min baby and Genchem BioMax No. 1. Only the 1st of which is available from Dartfrog. lol You can get the BioMax from Genchem Biomax Size 1 - Shrimp Foods - Genchem - Shrimp. I like it as not only does it contain astaxanthin and spirulina but also pearl powder (a good source of calcium).

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

J...bloody fantastic mate massive grats,pretty much all thats been said rings true to me,we all have slightly different takes on how we approach this ha and they all work.
Here's a brief rundown of our methods which you've seen ,but i probably over loaded ya with some much info i bet its a blur
We tend to pull eggs same day last thing at night...if we find them:bash:
At a rough average temp of 22C ours(attachis...but leucs mysties and auratus are pretty much the same)take around 19days to hatch,you'll see cell division at around 3/4 days,the real thing i look for is that little line across the top of the egg.
Keep the eggs at the same orientation they were laid in...ie keep them the right way up,the embryo developes on top
If an egg goes bad remove it once your sure,a plant lable and a teaspoon are good tools with confidence and time you'll hoik them out with a turkey baster,but its nerve racking first few times,make sure when removing an egg you keep the others the right way up!!!!!!
We put eggs in a little tupperware with a little water in it and spray for a second once a day the lid is not really sealed.
Ade's right a tad gizmo takes the work out of rearing tads,but you've seen yourself that rearing in glasses is dead easy also.Just stand the glasses in water in say a 3L tupperware,the water moderates temperature variation,a good deal.i'm going to chuck abit of detail into the glasses,as you might not have time to set up a rearing system 
If your rearing in glasses the secret is to not over feed,this is simple to gauge if your water is not crystal clear and has a film on it,you have to change out most of it...you've over fed!!!!!
Put a bit of oak or I almond leaf with each tad,and make a tea of your choice,we use our native alder...some use oak...most indian almond
your tad will shrink slightly at the back end as it uses up the yolk thats the time to start feeding,you'll know its feeding because there will be tad waste..pooh.Start with about 1 1/2 cm of water,don't suck the waste out at first just add a bit more water daily as tad gets stronger.
Never suck out all the tad waste when doing water changes,and do these with a turkey baster sucking out some of the waste and replacing with a bit more clean water,i add less tea the older the tad is and I'm also finding myself removing less and less ,both waste and water,as i go further into this.I'm now hardly losing a tad J it doesn't seem right or logical There is something totally not expected going on with tads in glasses and their waste and water quality.I'm not yet completely sure what ,but its there nonetheless.I think its to do with nitrifying bacteria in the waste,Ade will know more here,but i can see it working the water goes absolutely crystal clear,its amazing and seems all back to front so long as you don't over feed,I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that dart tads have a built in mechanism to self clean their water,thats how they can survive in such miniscule water quantities. Oh maybe start the feeding regime with something lower in protien,and tiny tiny quantities at first!!!!!!!!!!

There you go J,that'll see you right for a couple of months mate, now you can start worrying about how many springtails you can culture :lol2:
Stu


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Thanks guys, really helpful.

Stu - the info for rearing glassses is spot on mate, i think in the future i may look at a proper rearing setup but for this clutch at least, it's going to be individual glasses.

so using the few products that ade recommended, is that it as far as feeding is concerned whilst it's a tad? then springs etc when its OOTW?

how often should the tad be fed? daily? .. getting a little ahead of myself here i know lol


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

not quite related but another vid you guys may like 

Azureus and Mysti Vivs - YouTube


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> Thanks guys, really helpful.
> 
> Stu - the info for rearing glassses is spot on mate, i think in the future i may look at a proper rearing setup but for this clutch at least, it's going to be individual glasses.
> 
> ...


I thought it might be useful J...its abit of a shock when you actually have first eggs isn't it.:no1:
Ok your 2 months is morphout time...roughly,so you'll want as many springs as possible,when those little fellas hit the land...trust me,however many you have...you'll want more.not for tads buddy for froglets
Nah don't feed daily J probably every other day,but this all depends on how big a tad...how much it eats...and how much you've fed,so utterly impossible to give actual hard core exact quantities. This is where your bit of boiled leaf comes in(i might have missed that i boil the bit of oak leaf) we use in each glass,one it sterilises it but it probably makes it a bit softer,when little tad is hungry he'll munch on this and the film of detritus that accumulates on it.
I'll repeat tiny tiny amounts of food,after that use your eyes mate,i keep harping on about stockmanship,this is what I'm blabbing about,really look at the tads mate,they virtually tell you what to do,when to feed if your seeing the signs,remember if you have a film on the water back right off and give a good water change,,,but leave some waste in there it'll sort the water out .
there are so many options for food mate.We are using two types of tetra flake,cycloopsEEZE and of course my beloved wild grub. So far i guess for a bloody novice,in his first year Shaz and I have done alright,we loose very very little tinc clade,just these little darling mysties to get up to scratch mate,but honestly,we can't really find anyone whom rears them all.you've seen the results of this method so,you know it will work...all things being equal. Thats the problem mate,each set up is different each set up needs mastering,in a unique way,use your eyes buddy really stare at these tads watch what they are up to,they'll help you rear them.
J please don't be disapointed if these first eggs are not fertile or you don't rear them,the early clutches anywhere can be really difficult to pull out of the bag,even with frogs that have bred before...that said it might be a walk in the park
best
Stu


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

just to clarify - on dartfrog website looking to order a couple bits.

the dendrovit pro-aktiv is a food for the tads in powder form yea? I guess you just sprinkle it on the surface of the water?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> just to clarify - on dartfrog website looking to order a couple bits.
> 
> the dendrovit pro-aktiv is a food for the tads in powder form yea? I guess you just sprinkle it on the surface of the water?


I can't help on this one mate ,but the mysties are looking well,much bolder now?
Stu


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

a little bit bolder as of the last couple weeks actually but still a long way from sitting on the mesh waiting for food like yours lol


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> a little bit bolder as of the last couple weeks actually but still a long way from sitting on the mesh waiting for food like yours lol


It will come mate i'm sure,i'm really surprised by this J you saw what they were like here,even the little tiny ones are pretty bold,we have just fed 4 tiny guys,they didn't bat an eyelid just set about trying to get so fat that they pop:whistling2: Has the male continued calling? Its great for us to hear
about how are kids are doing,thanks for that mate. Ha we have at least one tad doing ok in viv,occassionaly we see its parents gather round staring at this super tiny little tad,its really funny to watch,not like the tincs,they seem hell bent on squishing their liltte one :devil::lol2:
Stu


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

oh right, didnt realise you left some eggs in? is that with the mystis?
howcome you decided not to pull? interested to see if they'd do it themselves?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Sometimes J when the mood takes you leaving the eggs is what we do, just to see what happens.
Well it`s what I do.

Mike


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

not the greatest pics but here's them at 6 days 


Azureus Eggs @ 6 days by .JayD., on Flickr


Azureus Eggs @ 6days by .JayD., on Flickr


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

do you guys expose your tads to UV lighting?

Read an article that suggested it proved really beneficial to avoiding SLS.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Cornish-J said:


> do you guys expose your tads to UV lighting?
> 
> Read an article that suggested it proved really beneficial to avoiding SLS.


 
Nope

Mike


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Another nope, and have yet to have a frog morph out with SLS.

Diet is key, including for the adults, for me.

Ade


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

thanks guys, good to hear


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ha yup,i use uvb and yes i have had sls but then the sls comes with a frog that i'm told is super prone to it infact i can't find one breeder yet who has not had sls,with mysties, J i can show you for and against using uvb with tads,if you do i would say you must enable that tad to be able to get away from the uvb, to self regulate.The case for using it with mysties is simple they live up a bloody mountain.With most other darts and i use it with all of the frogs we rear,i suspect it is not so important.But i don't know for sure,i guess i'm..sorry WE!!!!! are taking around 95% of tads out of the water as good froglets even with the mystie factor,so i wouldn't bet against it either
As Ade mentioned parental nutrition is hellish important ,but again it is absolutely not the whole story,sls is ruddy complex, both in the factors causing it and how it manifests itself. If it wasn't we wouldn't still be seeing it or talking about it.We would have it wired by now. I know of WC producing sls i have read about vit A eradicating it,water being important, goddammit even exactly the right water temps are quoted as players,as well as the above....it is the one thing in dart keeping that i reckon we would all agree on...we all want to see the back of it,period.It seems to come and go in one collection for no apparent reason...P...I...T...A
Jaime i'd like to congratulate you on your FERTILE breeding pr of azzies,best of luck kiddo,which ever method you use may they crawl out with good legs
bring it on
Stu


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

thanks Stu - i'm going to see how i get on without uvb for the moment.

looking forward to them hatching 

Here's a couple pics of the parents...


Azureus by .JayD., on Flickr


Azureus by .JayD., on Flickr


Azureus by .JayD., on Flickr


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

first time i've witnessed a courtship routine between frogs today, very interesting to see how they interact etc.

anyway, long story short - 4 more eggs!


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

well the first clutch - both tads were moving/wriggling up to about a day or two ago - now absolutely nothing. i assume both have died.

I guess there's no reason for them to just die other than what i've been doing?
water and/or temperature i guess has gone wrong somewhere.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

DON`T ditch them just yet J.
I`ve seen the same with mine but they were just playing possum.
Leave them as they are as if in fact they are dead they will soon turn white and mouldy.

Mike


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

i literally just noticed one move! 

the other one looks like it's had it though, the yolk (is that the right term?) has kinda split and crumbled inside the egg?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Sounds like it might be J.
I`d leave it till tomorrow though just to be sure, it won`t do any harm.
As long as it`s not touching the other eggs it won`t do them any harm if there is a problem.

Mike


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

there's only 2 and they're no where near touching so i'll leave it in.

is that a common problem? the crumbled yolk sak?


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## polaris2582 (Jan 19, 2011)

Moving into these little beauties in coming months so following this thread avidly!  Do you have just a pair? I'd love to see a pic of your set-up, and well done for getting eggs! and more eggs!
I've heard of eggs that look a total goner coming through tho so I'd not throw them just yet, no harm in waiting! As I found out from the dodgiest crestie egg you've ever seen, hatching perfectly. It had a little bit of fuzz and everything but I wasn't givin up! :blush:
Fabulous photo, especially the doctored one with the colour contrast. Beautiful healthy frogs!


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

thanks very much 

not the best photo but the azureus viv is on the left - and yea just a pair!


Azureus Viv + mysteriosus Viv by .JayD., on Flickr


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## polaris2582 (Jan 19, 2011)

Stunning  I love dart viv's they just amaze me, little bit of the world caught up in a glass shell! 
I deff have to get some of these again soon. Had Mantella's before but Leuc's Tinc's and Azureus have gotta be my fav's.



Cornish-J said:


> thanks very much
> 
> not the best photo but the azureus viv is on the left - and yea just a pair!
> 
> ...


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi J
I`d say not really.
I`ve had loads of eggs off mine this year and most have been fine.
The only time i`ve found any probs is that the tads seem rather fragile compared to the Leucs.
When they grow to morphing out size they are big and strong, prior to that they are in my view weak.


Mike


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Mike, how do you care for your tads once they are wriggling in the jelly prior to breaking free, up to they are ready to leave the water?

i've read a few guides but nothing better than someone thats doing it, and doing it successfully.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi J
I don`t know about succesfully lol as my first ones aint out of the water yet, nearly though.
Keep the eggs moist, NOT wet.
I just use enough water to barely cover the bottom of the dish.
As the tads get close to breaking free I add more water so the eggs are half submerged so that when the tads come out they have something to swim in.
When I remove them I put them in a container with water not much deeper than the petri dish has.
After a couple of days I gradually deepen the water to maybe an inch, and keep that depth until the front legs pop.
I always put a bit of creeper in the water which gives them something to hide under if they feel threatened, and this also gives them something to climb onto when they leave the water.
Once the front legs appear I remove some water to make it easier for them to get out and less chance of them drowning, just deep enough to cover their back.
Remember to use your turkey baster and remove waste and old food daily and replace any lost water as it all helps to keep the tads healthy.


Mike


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

What and when do you feed mike?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Well they don`t usually feed for about a week after breaking out of the egg J.
Food wise it`s entirely up to you.
Whatever I say or use there will be a dozen others come on and say to use what they use.
I use amphibian food pellets from the US of A and results have been okay.
If it doesn`t get eaten it`s easily removed and to date i`ve never had any problems with fouled water.
The pellets are small and I give one a day and as they grow larger I give them 2 a day or whatever it is they need.
Normally 2 is enough for large tads.
I`ve used tad food and fish flakes and spirulina but find they mess up the water too easily and a while back I lost tads in a community tank because of fouled water, not any more.

Mike


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Thanks Mike, it's all good info.

Here's a pic of the surviving tad from my first 2 eggs.


Azureus Egg @ 14 days by .JayD., on Flickr


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Looking good J.

Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

same here J looking good :2thumb:
Jamie Mike mates a great point there isn't a right way,there is the best way for you,thats what your questing for.
I don't put hardly any water in with those hatchling tads,it seems not right to sunmerge a tad to soon,thats born out of water,and then goes for walkies on dads back for a while before getting swimming lessons,plus there might possibly a case for the jelly breaking down too early if too wet.100% humidity is what works for shaz and I.
oh mate get some water butts outside they'll be full in 10mins down there,and give em some wild midge larvae just don't tell Claire i told ya that when you've overfed them and your gaff is full of mossies:whistling2::lol2:
Seriously though mate a while back i selected a few mysties and fed them lots of wild grub,i wish I'd have dated it the first has just popped front legs...all good there (seems quicker than normal too),but it is seriously bigger than any previous mystie morphling frogpole...thingies :blush:.I wish i had a bit more time on me hands to do these little experiments properly,my tads seem to get to a good size anyway ,but this one has really surprised me
good luck mate
Stu


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

looks like this tad has gone the same way as the other, got home from work today to find part of the large head section seeping out .. hard to describe.

not quite sure why this has happened twice now, has anyone seen this before?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Sounds like the 'funghus' I kept getting on my tads, right up to the point where I switched to using a tadpole rearing system and tadpole tea.

Ade


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

oh really? ... is this a 'i told you so' moment Ade  lol

Ok, this is happening before the tads have actually broken from the jelly though? I assume you were getting the issues once you moved them into little cups etc?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Ok, had that too. I found it happened when eggs aren't kept humid enough. I took to keeping the petri dishes in the viv with the adults as well as misting them once a day. Pulling them I found it impossible to keep humid enough to stop the funghus from striking without drowning the eggs.

You could also look into using methylene blue to protect the unhatched eggs.

Oh and sterilise your petri dish. I find once a dish has had this happen in it it will infect any other eggs you put in there.

That's the thing here, we have pretty much ALL had these issues at one time or another. Both in unhatched and hatched tadpoles.

Ade


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Thanks Ade, i will try keeping the eggs in one of my vivs to help maintain humidity.

how would you suggest sterilising the dish? just a good wash or some chemicals?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Don`t lose heart J.
Now they are laying you`ll get lots more practice.

Mike


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

here's some pics of the 3 tads - about 17days old now.


DSC_0034 by .JayD., on Flickr


DSC_0032 by .JayD., on Flickr


DSC_0031 by .JayD., on Flickr


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

And my expert tad system!


DSC_0035 by .JayD., on Flickr


DSC_0037 by .JayD., on Flickr


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

You might find that system a bit small once you get started. 

Ade


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

some more pics of the homemade tad system and the tads. They're around 4-5 weeks old now.

only concern is with one of them, when it comes to rest it rotates and seems to just lie upside down??


DSC_0204 by .JayD., on Flickr


DSC_0206 by .JayD., on Flickr


DSC_0205 by .JayD., on Flickr


DSC_0207 by .JayD., on Flickr

and 4 eggs developing well so far.


DSC_0209 by .JayD., on Flickr


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## Tonybb (Jun 24, 2012)

good luck with them


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