# Tortoise table or vivarium ?



## Bulbabye

I currently have a tortoise table for my 1-2 year old tortoise and I have been suggested to put a cover on top of my tortoise table to keep the heat reserved inside as my Russian tortoise is not eating and the only thing it could be is the temperature is not being kept in the table,
But it is now practically a viverium?
so should I just get a vivarium for her ?
as I don’t think the table is doing any good for her .
Any suggestions ?
Thank you !


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## Shellsfeathers&fur

Can you post some pictures? What are the temperatures on the table in both the hot spot and cold spot? What is the heat source? What sort of substrate and final question what are you offering as food?


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## purplepixie

Bulbabye said:


> I currently have a tortoise table for my 1-2 year old tortoise and I have been suggested to put a cover on top of my tortoise table to keep the heat reserved inside as my Russian tortoise is not eating and the only thing it could be is the temperature is not being kept in the table,
> But it is now practically a viverium?
> so should I just get a vivarium for her ?
> as I don’t think the table is doing any good for her .
> Any suggestions ?
> Thank you !



If you have a horsfield then high temps are not needed. An open topped enclosure is vital, along with deep substrate so they can dig down when they need too. This time of the year they should be outside in the sunshine. He/she is probably too hot with the temps we have been having. As long as they have clear bright eyes and a dry nose then its too higher temps.
Vivs do not allow for airflow and the temps are the same in all of the viv. Tortoises need air circulation with heat around 32c under the light and around 25c the other end, so they can choose where to be.


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## Bulbabye

I use the Arcadia heat lamp with the heat/uvb bulb in one ,
She has organic top soil, I offer her dandelions , lambs lettuce , romaine lettuce, mint, rocket, basically leafy foods and spring mix , her temperature rages from 32C-35C under her lamp and her cold temps are 23C. 


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## Bulbabye

Bulbabye said:


> I use the Arcadia heat lamp with the heat/uvb bulb in one ,
> She has organic top soil, I offer her dandelions , lambs lettuce , romaine lettuce, mint, rocket, basically leafy foods and spring mix , her temperature rages from 32C-35C under her lamp and her cold temps are 23C.
> 
> 
> [


I have also gave her yesterday an Aloevera plant in her enclosure


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## Bulbabye

I do have her outside when the weather is nice and hot I live in the UK so the weather can be unpredictable, she’s currently in a tortoise table but I was told on here that I need to cover the top of the table to keep the heat in so it’s like a viverium, I am just confused on what’s right for her as I just don’t know why she’s not eating all of a sudden I weighed her last month and she was 230g now she’s 214 ….


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## Bulbabye

[here is her enclosure the plastic covering was advertised from a member on here


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## Shellsfeathers&fur

Who told you to cover the table? You could have asked for more opinions!

Rocket and mint have very strong flavours and I'm sure not the most suitable given that. Get some weeds and flowers for the tortoise - look at the Tortoise Table website which gives clear pictures and descriptions on what is/isn't edible.


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## purplepixie

Bulbabye said:


> [here is her enclosure the plastic covering was advertised from a member on here
> View attachment 364927


The heat should be up the other end of the enclosure (which is a little on the small side sorry) they need no heat at night. When the heat is up the other end they will move to get warm. If its on the housing they wont move. Non of the plastic over the enclosure is needed, as this just makes it hotter for the tortoise. Horsfields come from a much cooler temps than meds. And hibernate for up to six months of the year. 
How long have you had the tortoise?
Diet should be weeds and flowers. if you go to www.tortoises.net you will find a great list of suitable plants and enclosure help:0)


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## Bulbabye

purplepixie said:


> The heat should be up the other end of the enclosure (which is a little on the small side sorry) they need no heat at night. When the heat is up the other end they will move to get warm. If its on the housing they wont move. Non of the plastic over the enclosure is needed, as this just makes it hotter for the tortoise. Horsfields come from a much cooler temps than meds. And hibernate for up to six months of the year.
> How long have you had the tortoise?
> Diet should be weeds and flowers. if you go to www.tortoises.net you will find a great list of suitable plants and enclosure help:0)


The tortoise table is over 4ft I think it’s just the picture that makes it look small, and I do turn the lamp off at night . I have had her since she was a couple months old . I am just confused on what advice to follow as several people on here have told me to put a plastic covering over . And I shall move the heat lamp to the other end .


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## Bulbabye

Shellsfeathers&fur said:


> Who told you to cover the table? You could have asked for more opinions!
> 
> Rocket and mint have very strong flavours and I'm sure not the most suitable given that. Get some weeds and flowers for the tortoise - look at the Tortoise Table website which gives clear pictures and descriptions on what is/isn't edible.


Several people on here had told me to do it as they said she’s not eating because the open table doesn’t have a top so the heat will just rise and escape …. And I only tried her with mint and rocket yesterday, I normally provide her with lambs lettuce, romaine lettuce dandelions, and spring mix like I mentioned .


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## Bulbabye

I have moved the lamp is this better ?


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## purplepixie

Bulbabye said:


> I have moved the lamp is this better ?


Better but where the aloe is would be the best. If your tortoise has clear bright eyes, a dry nose and is not lethargic then it could be he/she is too hot and not wanting to eat. Keepers panic when they dont eat, but if they are not loosing weight and appear healthy then its just a matter of time. Try feeding dandelion cover in either tomato juice or cucumber juice. As they can get very fussy in what they eat. Any tortoise fed on supermarket foods are a devil to get to eat food good for them. Especially tomato and cucumber, which have no value to them except hydration in very hot weather.
You have to be stronger minded than the tortoise:0) 
At any time you are worried about health of your tortoise then a visit to a tort vet would be in order. But trying to get things right is not easy when so many give incorrect advice. The site I mentioned is a person who has done field work with tortoises and has kept them for many years. And is well know in the real tortoise world:0) Not the virtual one:0)


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## Bulbabye

purplepixie said:


> Better but where the aloe is would be the best. If your tortoise has clear bright eyes, a dry nose and is not lethargic then it could be he/she is too hot and not wanting to eat. Keepers panic when they dont eat, but if they are not loosing weight and appear healthy then its just a matter of time. Try feeding dandelion cover in either tomato juice or cucumber juice. As they can get very fussy in what they eat. Any tortoise fed on supermarket foods are a devil to get to eat food good for them. Especially tomato and cucumber, which have no value to them except hydration in very hot weather.
> You have to be stronger minded than the tortoise:0)
> At any time you are worried about health of your tortoise then a visit to a tort vet would be in order. But trying to get things right is not easy when so many give incorrect advice. The site I mentioned is a person who has done field work with tortoises and has kept them for many years. And is well know in the real tortoise world:0) Not the virtual one:0)


I will move it slightly over some more , and she looks healthy but she has lost weight . She was 230g now she’s 214g … plus with the lack of appetite has caused me concern , I have tried several reptile vets in my area but nobody is taking on any new patients which is why I am on here trying to find help and advice . She has ate a little from her aloe plant this morning . I don’t feed her any fruit as it is not healthy for her !


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## purplepixie

Bulbabye said:


> I will move it slightly over some more , and she looks healthy but she has lost weight . She was 230g now she’s 214g … plus with the lack of appetite has caused me concern , I have tried several reptile vets in my area but nobody is taking on any new patients which is why I am on here trying to find help and advice . She has ate a little from her aloe plant this morning . I don’t feed her any fruit as it is not healthy for her !


Sounds like you are doing your best. 
Has he/she pooed recently?
As the temps have been hot, dehydration could be a problem. Horsfields dont normally get soaked, but you can give that a try. Soak for a long as you can up to 15-20mins but most dont like bathing. Other than that its hard to say, your best bet is to find a suitable vet.


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## Bulbabye

Bulbabye said:


> I will move it slightly over some more , and she looks healthy but she has lost weight . She was 230g now she’s 214g … plus with the lack of appetite has caused me concern , I have tried several reptile vets in my area but nobody is taking on any new patients which is why I am on here trying to find help and advice . She has ate a little from her aloe plant this morning . I don’t feed her any fruit as it is not healthy for her !


She does not have any


purplepixie said:


> Sounds like you are doing your best.
> Has he/she pooed recently?
> As the temps have been hot, dehydration could be a problem. Horsfields dont normally get soaked, but you can give that a try. Soak for a long as you can up to 15-20mins but most dont like bathing. Other than that its hard to say, your best bet is to find a suitable vet.


 thank you I really appreciate you saying that as I have been trying everything , I have been soaking her all this week to see if she is constipated, she has two tiny poos yesterday and I couldn’t see any worms or anything , should I provide her with a wormer just incase ? And I am still on my search for a vet but nobody is taking any new patients on at the minuet . Very frustrating but I am happy to see her eating today ! Hopefully she continues .


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## purplepixie

Bulbabye said:


> She does not have any
> 
> thank you I really appreciate you saying that as I have been trying everything , I have been soaking her all this week to see if she is constipated, she has two tiny poos yesterday and I couldn’t see any worms or anything , should I provide her with a wormer just incase ? And I am still on my search for a vet but nobody is taking any new patients on at the minuet . Very frustrating but I am happy to see her eating today ! Hopefully she continues .


No dont worm her, not needed unless you see worms. If she is pooing thats good. It could be just the temps are really high outside which has an effect on inside temps too. I personally would turn heat off during the heat of the day. If you can put it on a timer thats good. As you can set it to come on in the early morning, then switch off midday. This mimics the outside temps and their behaviour. Tortoises are fickle things, and make you worry so easily:0)
And get her outside its the best thing for her during this weather:0)
To be honest most keepers worry about their eating habits, but dehydration is one of the biggest killers in tortoises, not food:0)


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## Shellsfeathers&fur

Bulbabye said:


> Several people on here had told me to do it as they said she’s not eating because the open table doesn’t have a top so the heat will just rise and escape …. And I only tried her with mint and rocket yesterday, I normally provide her with lambs lettuce, romaine lettuce dandelions, and spring mix like I mentioned .


Well as there are only two or three of us on here who reply I'd love to know who the 'several people are', as none of us would have recommended that!


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## Bulbabye

Shellsfeathers&fur said:


> Well as there are only two or three of us on here who reply I'd love to know who the 'several people are', as none of us would have recommended that!


On this website on a different forum I had before I made this one


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## Bulbabye

Shellsfeathers&fur said:


> Well as there are only two or three of us on here who reply I'd love to know who the 'several people are', as none of us would have recommended that!


 I don’t want to cause trouble for anyone I am just asking for advice 😅


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## SueBoyle

Horsfields don’t do well in vivs or tables as they are a burrowing species. Tables are only for hatchlings in any species, after which they need to be outdoors with added heat. Here is how I have always kept horsfields www.tortsmad.com/russians.htm


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## SueBoyle

Bulbabye said:


> Several people on here had told me to do it as they said she’s not eating because the open table doesn’t have a top so the heat will just rise and escape …. And I only tried her with mint and rocket yesterday, I normally provide her with lambs lettuce, romaine lettuce dandelions, and spring mix like I mentioned .


Sorry but that is probably the worst advice for a horsfield tortoise and will cause illness long term if not sooner 😳


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## LJSW1982

Bulbabye said:


> The tortoise table is over 4ft I think it’s just the picture that makes it look small, and I do turn the lamp off at night . I have had her since she was a couple months old . I am just confused on what advice to follow as several people on here have told me to put a plastic covering over . And I shall move the heat lamp to the other end .


A wild mediterranean tortoise (including Horsfield, Hermanns and Greek) dependent on breed and age will walk up to 80km a day in the wild. Even a juvenile will walk up to 20km.

The absolute smallest an enclosure should be for an adult is 4ft x 8ft and for a juvenile 4 x 4ft or equivalent square footage.


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## SueBoyle

Hang on, so if they generally cover 80km, suddenly 4ft x 8ft is ok 😳 Tortoises are in fact territorial and unless they spend the day walking in circles at a very fast rate could not cover 80km and if I kept my tortoises in a tiny area of 4x8ft would spend their time climbing the walls to escape 🤨 Could you tell us please where you obtained this info?


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## LJSW1982

I agree tortoises should be kept in much bigger but as a minimum size for an indoor enclosure 4x8 is the smallest that would be reasonable.

What size would you recommend if a tortoise fails to hibernate for example?


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## Shellsfeathers&fur

LJSW1982 said:


> A wild mediterranean tortoise (including Horsfield, Hermanns and Greek) dependent on breed and age will walk up to 80km a day in the wild. Even a juvenile will walk up to 20km.
> 
> The absolute smallest an enclosure should be for an adult is 4ft x 8ft and for a juvenile 4 x 4ft or equivalent square footage.


How far? There's only 24 hours in a day!!!!


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## Shellsfeathers&fur

LJSW1982 said:


> I agree tortoises should be kept in much bigger but as a minimum size for an indoor enclosure 4x8 is the smallest that would be reasonable.
> 
> What size would you recommend if a tortoise fails to hibernate for example?


Subject to species (or illness) why would a tortoise fail to hibernate? Surely in captivity this is because the keeper doesn't want to allow it to hibernate?


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## Tarron

Shellsfeathers&fur said:


> How far? There's only 24 hours in a day!!!!


That's nearly a meter per second, flat out for 24 hours without breaks or sleep.


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## purplepixie

LJSW1982 said:


> A wild mediterranean tortoise (including Horsfield, Hermanns and Greek) dependent on breed and age will walk up to 80km a day in the wild. Even a juvenile will walk up to 20km.
> 
> The absolute smallest an enclosure should be for an adult is 4ft x 8ft and for a juvenile 4 x 4ft or equivalent square footage.


Tortoises are species not breeds, and no such thing as a greek tortoise. Horsfield, hermans, ibera, graeca, and marginata just to name a few:0) Your info is incorrect:0(


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## SueBoyle

LJSW1982 said:


> I agree tortoises should be kept in much bigger but as a minimum size for an indoor enclosure 4x8 is the smallest that would be reasonable.
> 
> What size would you recommend if a tortoise fails to hibernate for example?


Given correct enclosure a hibernating species will hibernate if in good health. 
indoor enclosures are only suitable for hatchlings.


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## LJSW1982

Shellsfeathers&fur said:


> Subject to species (or illness) why would a tortoise fail to hibernate? Surely in captivity this is because the keeper doesn't want to allow it to hibernate?


Yes, it may be unwell or too underweight to hibernate.


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## LJSW1982

purplepixie said:


> Tortoises are species not breeds, and no such thing as a greek tortoise. Horsfield, hermans, ibera, graeca, and marginata just to name a few:0) Your info is incorrect:0(


Sorry I should not have "dumbed down" my taxonomies to simplify the point I was making which still stands. That small indoor enclosures are not appropriate for adult tortoises. The information that tortoises wall miles is correct.


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## SueBoyle

LJSW1982 said:


> Sorry I should not have "dumbed down" my taxonomies to simplify the point I was making which still stands. That small indoor enclosures are not appropriate for adult tortoises. The information that tortoises wall miles is correct.


The only instance of tortoises walking miles that I know of is when a sanctuary in Turkey was closed and the tortoises released a few miles away. Most returned and then stayed in close proximity of the original sanctuary, proving that they have territories that they tend to stay within.NO indoor habitats are humane or suitable for adult tortoises.


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## LJSW1982

SueBoyle said:


> The only instance of tortoises walking miles that I know of is when a sanctuary in Turkey was closed and the tortoises released a few miles away. Most returned and then stayed in close proximity of the original sanctuary, proving that they have territories that they tend to stay within.NO indoor habitats are humane or suitable for adult tortoises.


No I agree, but people will still buy older juvenile and adult tortoises and keep them indoors; if people are intent on doing that because of whatever misguided beliefs, it's important that information is out there letting them know that it needs to be a really large indoor enclosure; people should be prepared to give up whole spare rooms, ideally give up the tortoise to someone with outdoor space.

A tortoise was put down on Thursday with horrific deformities (adult Hermann, thickened shell in places, preventing head being withdrawn into shell, collapsed shape to carapace, legs could not be fully withdrawn and compression to organs). Had been kept from hatchling in a commercial tortoise table (1ft x 3ft a third of which was the hide) with a bulb that had not been changed in the 7 years of its life, and could not establish from owner if it was UVB (it was provided by the pet shop) and they could not keep outside (their reasoning) because it might get take by a heron, and when asked if they ever had considered making a run they said well "no because the tortoise likes it inside anyway, he's got a lovely big table" (which was then established to be the aforementioned table).

People are buying leopard and Indian stars from local pet shops and are then having to bring them inside for winter, they need to understand what an adult enclosure should then look like, not just hear the narrative "if it can hibernate it should be outside".

I personally do not agree with tortoises either kept inside or tropical and non hibernating tortoises being kept in the UK with colder temperatures and housing space at a premium BUT whilst it is going to carry on, I think having wide ranging advice on forums is important.


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