# rant about 'throw away pets'



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi folks

I've been on this forum now for a few weeks and I need to vent my concern about the number of animals advertised for sale every week.

Now I appreciate that there are many genuine reasons for selling animals, especially if you are a breeder (I hope to sell some animals myself one day) or a change in circumstances meaning that you can no longer afford to look after them any more, but what worries me is the trend in 'throw away pets'.

A number of times I've read things like 'I'm getting rid of this snake 'cos I want such and such a lizard' or 'I've thought long and hard and need to get rid - but would swap for...'. Often some of these animals have only been in the persons possesion for a few months.

Snakes and lizards are long lived animals and I really believe that they should only be bought if you are prepared to look after them until the day they die, even if thats 35-30 years, NOT UNTIL YOU GET BORED:censor::censor::censor:. There is a particularly large number of burms on the classifieds, but rather than a lot of 'I have made an honest mistake and can no longer care for this animal, can anyone help' or 'due to a change in circumstances I can not look after it anymore', the adverts instead say 'burm for sale, will swap for large lizard' or 'burm for sale would consider other morphs'.

I can not think of any circumstances that I would sell any of my animals except those that I could no longer look after _any_ of them (financial/family etc) but I certainly would never _swap_ them.

Rant over

Cheers

Andy

p.s. I know some guys selling animals have genuine reasons for doing so and I have no problem with that. I am talking about those that have got bored with the animals they have (you know who you are) and just want something else, how long before they get bored with the next thing?


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

I do agree with you, there are a fair few about, I myself only sell my own captive bred offspring, unless otherwise stated.

I haven't had the need to sell any of my personal collection as of yet, as income and space isn't an issue.

If I were to sell any of my own personal collection, it would be because I have come into extreme financial ruin, or I am leaving the hobby.

I still have my first snake from 10 years ago.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

I agree with your sentiments. But like you say, reptiles are long lived and people often move forward with their collections and simply don't have the space to keep everything until the day it dies. Better to sell a reptile to a new owner who'll show it the same enthusism you once did rather than keep it, become bored with it, and then probably let your husbandry slip as a result.

Fortunately reptiles don't develop the same emotional bonds as cats and dogs etc so as long as they aren't being overly stressed by moving vivs all the time I personally don't see an issue with a reptile having several owners during its life time.

Cheers

Stuart


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## Shellhead (Jan 4, 2008)

I agree also, some people treat keeping reptiles like its some kind of game, they pick and choose what thay want at the time. I think people need to think more about the well being of there animals. I would never even think of _swaping an _animal. I totaly agree with you.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> I agree also, some people treat keeping reptiles like its some kind of game, they pick and choose what thay want at the time. I think people need to think more about the well being of there animals. I would never even think of _swaping an _animal. I totaly agree with you.


Sorry but why shouldn't people pick what they want at the time and then sell/swap it when they want to move on?? You seem to be suggesting that this kind of behaviour automatically means that the animal is being mistreated in some way. That is not necessarily the case at all.

Just because you dont keep an animal for its entire life does not mean that that animal suffers in any way. We are talking about reptiles here, not pets like dogs that develop strong emotional bonds with their owners. The whole concept of "a pet is for life" doesn't really apply to reptiles in the way that it does with dogs etc.


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## Shellhead (Jan 4, 2008)

Sorry, i didnt mean it like it was wrong to want new snakes and need to get rid of old ones, i meant it like bothrops said, i just didnt want to repeat him, and sorry if my reply was badly worded. Apollogies


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## Xiorell (Aug 15, 2007)

All my guys have been purchased with full intention of keeping them for good.
Hence why I am glad, althought I do like them, I skipped the Corns and went directly into animals I am more interested in.
Hence why now, after I've got the ones I know I am happy to keep purely as pets with no care towards breeding or not, I am putting alot of thought into what comes next, will I want to breed it one day, will I wanna breed for a certain morph, will housing it interfear with OTHER snakes I know I want in future, etc etc.
I don't intend to give up anything I take on.


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## marc p (Jan 6, 2008)

i personaly feel i have to many pets and reps but id still never dream of swapping or gettin rid of them it jut wouldn't feel right


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> Sorry but why shouldn't people pick what they want at the time and then sell/swap it when they want to move on?? You seem to be suggesting that this kind of behaviour automatically means that the animal is being mistreated in some way. That is not necessarily the case at all.
> 
> Just because you dont keep an animal for its entire life does not mean that that animal suffers in any way. We are talking about reptiles here, not pets like dogs that develop strong emotional bonds with their owners. The whole concept of "a pet is for life" doesn't really apply to reptiles in the way that it does with dogs etc.


This post is bob on ,though i think the multi coloured swap shop brigade irritate most of us.


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## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

Some people do seem to have a very fast turnover and its always do to 'personal reasons' or 'circumstances' but if so why advertise for other snakes at the same time?

i guess there are some who like the idea of a snake but not the reality, some who are just trying to make a few quid every few months and the 'impulse buyers' who get bored or regret very quickly.

Nothing anyone can do about it though. Noone can stop them so its still going to go on. Ah Well.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I know people might not like it but how many of you have seen threads where someone comes in and says they want a GTP or a Retic etc etc? Then nearly every reply is oh no you need to start with a corn or a royal etc etc. So what are these people supposed to do with all the "beginner" snakes they have bought until they have got their GTP etc? They need to sell them! 

Personally I have bought and sold many snakes since getting into the hobby mostly because I have decided to move on to different things. I have never owned more than 6 snakes at one time due to space restrictions and presently have a small house so can only really house 2-3 appropriately so will more than likely sell again in the future as I am hoping to aquire a GTP myself and need the room. I dont get bored as such but dont want to keep the same species for the next 30 years while I wait for them to die so I can buy another. As long as they go to a good owner the snakes dont care.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Yup, i too agree with Stu.

At the end of the day these animals couldn't give a rats ass who owns them.


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## davenoble (Aug 25, 2007)

bothrops said:


> Hi folks
> 
> I've been on this forum now for a few weeks and I need to vent my concern about the number of animals advertised for sale every week.
> 
> ...





i think ya shouldnt really rant without knowing the circumstances ppl are in and the reasons for the sale. i mean there are a few ppl on here that do get rid of animals cos they get bored, and ill actually admit ive never done it cos ive been bored, theres always been a reason behind my sales. i just think if ya gunna rant then get the ifo first, and not just dive in with a winge on....


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## Rain (Oct 9, 2007)

I agree with Essexchondro.

I'll admit that I went with corns because I was told they were the best snake to start with if you were a beginner. Looking back on it now, I do wish I'd gone with exactly what I wanted, but the valuable experiance that I've gained from owning the corns has helped me so much in the understandings of the other species I want.

I've only sold one of my snakes, and that was given away to a very close friend whom I work with, so I can see the snake almost any time I choose, and I know she'll take excellent care of him. However, I've plans to sell a couple of my corns, so I can make some room for some more interesting species in time to come.


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

forum life is partially to blame. if someone says bci or bcc? everyone says bci as the cost is lower and dont get as large etc.... but if they have their heart set on the bcc, why not cut out the middle man. plus 9 times out of 10 people LOSE money on their sales. however private selling prices are creeping up to that of shop prices at the mo i think.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

Luton Reptile Rescue said:


> forum life is partially to blame. if someone says bci or bcc? everyone says bci as the cost is lower and dont get as large etc.... but if they have their heart set on the bcc, why not cut out the middle man. plus 9 times out of 10 people LOSE money on their sales. however private selling prices are creeping up to that of shop prices at the mo i think.


I think quite often people have an unrealistic idea of what their snakes are worth privately ,i`ve seen it on the fish forums everyone thinks they`re a dealer all of a sudden


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

i have NEVER paid more than £30 for a bci. if anyone does.... they are mental. people are getting ideas above their stations :lol2:


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

Luton Reptile Rescue said:


> i have NEVER paid more than £30 for a bci. if anyone does.... they are mental. people are getting ideas above their stations :lol2:


I paid £350 for one once...was a Salmon though :whistling2:


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

darwengray said:


> This post is bob on ,though i think the multi coloured swap shop brigade irritate most of us.


 
pointing at?????


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

This whole argument about "a pet is for life" is based upon owning pets like cats and dogs; pets that form strong emotional bonds with their owners and would suffer by being constantly shifted from owner to owner. But reptiles aren't like cats and dogs (*take note RSPCA*) because they don't bond with their owners in this way. As long as the reptiles husbandry requirements are met they have no interest in who their owner is and as long as they aren't being moved about literally all the time then they aren't fussed at all. 

Its only natural that hobbyists will want to move on to different species once they feel they've met the challenge (usually meaning they've bred) the species that they currently keep. The hobby would be in a far worse state than it currently is if everyone kept their reptiles "for life". No one would be working with gtp's, etb's, royal morphs, boa morphs etc etc etc because we'd have no room to fit them into our collections what with all our corns, garters and milks taking up all the space.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i see nothing wrong with buying, selling and trading things..... like with anything else, people can be a little overboard with things, but how else do you gain experience with very different species without being a millionaire? many people here sell at a loss just to be able to work with new species. most love their animals and don't sell or trade them because they are tired of them. they, being responsible keepers want to work with something else but realise that they can only keep a certain number properly...... just my opinion.......now with morphs...a corn is a corn is a corn..... keep a few and you have all of the experience that you need.... if a corn snake owner wants to work with a king snake then he should be able to.:crazy::lol2:


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

Andy said:


> I paid £350 for one once...was a Salmon though :whistling2:


I just meant normals :lol2:


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> pointing at?????


pointing at those who can`t own anything for five minutes without wanting to sell it or swap it .
There`s been quite a few instances on here recently.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> pointing at those who can`t own anything for five minutes without wanting to sell it or swap it .
> There`s been quite a few instances on here recently.


But that, in itself, isn't necessarily a bad thing (unless you mean five minutes literally, of course!). What matters is the quality of the care that the reptile receives....and there is no automatic link between a reptile having several owners and it receiving poor care.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

davenoble said:


> i think ya shouldnt really rant without knowing the circumstances ppl are in and the reasons for the sale. i mean there are a few ppl on here that do get rid of animals cos they get bored, and ill actually admit ive never done it cos ive been bored, theres always been a reason behind my sales. i just think if ya gunna rant then get the ifo first, and not just dive in with a winge on....


If you read my post again you will see that I *categorically exclude* people who sell for genuine reasons (such as expecting a new arrival!) I actually wrote it in such a way as I wouldn't include *you specifically* 'cos I'd seen you had a genuine reason and didn't want you to think I was getting at you - I obviously failed miserabley as you've now accused me of wingeing and not 'getting info first' -something that I pride myself on doing. :bash: 


I also understand that there are other circumstances where people would like to extend their collection etc, and I can see where they are coming from. I just can't get over the fact that many on the classifieds really come across as if they dont give a dam about the animals in their collection, have got bored and want to move on to the next thing - I'm sure I even read a post where a beautiful monitor was shown off and then after a few really positive comments the OP posted I want to (quote) "get rid"!. I agree that the animals may not necessarily be emotionally attached and that they may even be better looked after by someone who cares but if you are genuinely concerned about them, then surely a more 'rehome' based line should be taken with carefult vetting and a small charge to ensure they are going to a better home. 

Of course my arguement, was more humans becoming attached to the animals not the other way around!

Cheers


Andy


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

HABU said:


> i see nothing wrong with buying, selling and trading things..... like with anything else, people can be a little overboard with things, but how else do you gain experience with very different species without being a millionaire? many people here sell at a loss just to be able to work with new species. most love their animals and don't sell or trade them because they are tired of them. they, being responsible keepers want to work with something else but realise that they can only keep a certain number properly...... just my opinion.......now with morphs...a corn is a corn is a corn..... keep a few and you have all of the experience that you need.... if a corn snake owner wants to work with a king snake then he should be able to.:crazy::lol2:


 
I really dont get the mentality of this place at times, a corn is a corn, or multi colour swap shop etc etc:crazy:

Some people have done green trees, carpets, ackies, garters, milks, kings, eyed lizards or whatever etc etc and have no interest in them now, some never will, some will be happy with a single corn, garter, king, leopard gecko or beardie, for some the genetic side IS the interest

Certain species aren't just a stepping stone for some, sometimes a species IS the interest, sometimes i think theres too much elitism on here at times, sometimes i wonder why i even bother coming on here:lol2:

Sorry but i find something wrong with the whole my snakes/lizards better, bigger, scarier, more interesting, rarer than yours mentality, its not just this thread, theres many on here recently, i just find it really sad:censor:

Rant over, time to move on


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## This is my Clone (Jul 8, 2007)

I sold all of my Lizards (apart from my original 2 Leos). They have all gone to knowledgable homes, and were sold for a considerable loss! However, I don't think I did anything wrong at all. I bought my Dragons, gave them great care, and when my circumstances changed, re-homed them. I was very fussy about where they went to!
I don't want people to think bad of me because my interest is now in Snakes.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> I really dont get the mentality of this place at times, a corn is a corn, or multi colour swap shop etc etc:crazy:
> 
> Some people have done green trees, carpets, ackies, garters, milks, kings, eyed lizards or whatever etc etc and have no interest in them now, some never will, some will be happy with a single corn, garter, king, leopard gecko or beardie, for some the genetic side IS the interest
> 
> ...


 
*hear hear!*

Why is a corn any less of an animal to keep than any other, morph or not. Just because your particular interest is in keeping harder and harder species to keep does not in anyway make you a better herp enthusiast (or person) than the person who keeps 10 or so 8+year old corns because previous owners have 'moved on' and they are no longer wanted.

I find the elitism and snobbery in this hobby most distasteful.

Cheers

Andy


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

all corns or whatever morphs all have the same care... now a corn and a tree boa are very different...boa constrictor morphs are still boas to a blind man...they all have the same care...a bci is a bci no matter how you see it.


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## burrow (Nov 5, 2007)

I think it's better to come on *here* and sell them, at least you know they'll go to a good home. It's better than you keeping it, getting bored and not looking after it (as someone has said previously).

I've never known a forum like this one. All people do is bicker at one another. I don't understand why we can't all just do things our own way and stop judging or criticising people for doing something that we don't necessarily like or agree with.

Another thing we all need to remember is that what is said on the internet can be completely misinterpreted because you cannot tell what way/tone the person is talking in.

Someone selling reptiles on here may seem like they don't care, when actually they do. They amount of times i've seen 'i didn't mean for it to sound like that'!

All this reminds me of being back at school. It's petty.


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

burrow said:


> I think it's better to come on *here* and sell them, at least you know they'll go to a good home. It's better than you keeping it, getting bored and not looking after it (as someone has said previously).
> 
> I've never known a forum like this one. All people do is bicker at one another. I don't understand why we can't all just do things our own way and stop judging or criticising people for doing something that we don't necessarily like or agree with.
> 
> ...


I have met people from here that keep their stuff outrageously badly. so never assume that an interest in a hobby means they are any good at it.


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## burrow (Nov 5, 2007)

What i meant (reiterating my point before about misinterpreting) was at least you can get some information before you sell it. Of course there are going to be people that don't treat them well enough, but at least by coming on a site where there are lots of people that DO know what they're doing you have more of a chance of selling it to somebody that will take care of it, rather than it being left in your room not being cared for or selling it to some random.


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

burrow said:


> What i meant (reiterating my point before about misinterpreting) was at least you can get some information before you sell it. Of course there are going to be people that don't treat them well enough, but at least by coming on a site where there are lots of people that DO know what they're doing you have more of a chance of selling it to somebody that will take care of it, rather than it being left in your room not being cared for or selling it to some random.


Gotcha :lol2:


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

bothrops said:


> *hear hear!*
> 
> Why is a corn any less of an animal to keep than any other, morph or not. Just because your particular interest is in keeping harder and harder species to keep does not in anyway make you a better herp enthusiast (or person) than the person who keeps 10 or so 8+year old corns because previous owners have 'moved on' and they are no longer wanted.
> 
> ...


I was starting to think i was the only one who thought this:lol2:, believe it or not, i found most of the more unusual(or they were at the time) species to be less of an interest than corns, yes i loved my green trees, stunning, but god were they boring. Most of the species i kept were very similar, probably most of the pacific island ground boas were the worse, i sold up many many species cause i needed the space when we had children, i came back into the hobby after a short while and wanted to keep species that the wholew family could enjoy, i personally wouldn't want my daughters holding my old atbs'green trees, fwcs, or whatever, i chose corns because im happy with my penis size:whistling2::lol2: and its something we do as a whole family, i love the interest of genetics and i love the fact that we can go away for two weeks hooliday without leaving a 200page detailed plan of how to keep the 80different species of lizard and snakes we used to keep for my parents to worry about

For me its a been there done that thing, for others that single colubrid is all they ever want, for others a single species is enough, some people buy fords all their lives, maybe they haven't driven every car on the road, but if its all they need, and they are happy, why put them down?

Why not respect the fact that some people get just as much interest out of a new morph, than others do with a new species?

Everyones different:whistling2:


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

I honesty don't understand what the issue here is. The only thing that is important is the care that the reptile receives, and this isn't directly related to how many owners it's had. 



> Why is a corn any less of an animal to keep than any other, morph or not. Just because your particular interest is in keeping harder and harder species to keep does not in anyway make you a better herp enthusiast (or person) than the person who keeps 10 or so 8+year old corns because previous owners have 'moved on' and they are no longer wanted.
> 
> I find the elitism and snobbery in this hobby most distasteful.


I agree with you. For some people corns are the ultimate snake, for other people its something else. However, corns tend to be very popular with people new to the hobby and are usually one of the species that people start out with. If all these keepers kept all their corns for life how would they ever have the space to move on to other (just other, not better!) species? The answer is they wouldn't, and the hobby would stagnate as a result!!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

who put corns down?


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

essexchondro said:


> I honesty don't understand what the issue here is. The only thing that is important is the care that the reptile receives, and this isn't directly related to how many owners it's had.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you. For some people corns are the ultimate snake, for other people its something else. However, corns tend to be very popular with people new to the hobby and are usually one of the species that people start out with. If all these keepers kept all their corns for life how would they ever have the space to move on to other (just other, not better!) species? The answer is they wouldn't, and the hobby would stagnate as a result!!


 
see i disagree, cs.com is not stagnent in anyway. theres keepers on there who have kept corns for 30+ years and still have a massive passion for it, it took me 18years to find my love of corns

I agree on the selling thing, i sell corns, not for boredom, but because they were mis-sexed or have traits that i am not looking for(blizzards with too much yellow etc), or breeding plan changes, i have others that are family pets and would never go. I know some dont like that side of things, but thats the reality for some, it doesn't mean that those animals wont go on to be someone elses pride and joy that will be with them to the end, it also doesn't mean why they are with the seller that they wont be treated with the best care either. to me a £10 corn is just as special as a £700 one

The other way of looking at the situation is, what about people who do choose to move onto other species, then realise they have bitten off more than they can chew with some of the larger, more aggressive species. The difference being that, that may cause re-homing issues

I remember the mad rush of bosc, green tree and nile monitor purchaces some years back, imagine if those same people had taken an interest in leo morphs(not that they existed in many forms), surely that would have been a better scenario as far as rehoming was concerned(would have saved me a few nile bites:lol2


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

HABU said:


> who put corns down?


It seems to be a daily occurence dude:lol2:, especially the morph side:lol2:


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

I'm personally not a corn person but i can't deny they are cute looking lil things.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

some people like snakes and wildlife in general. some people just have pets. others are into the genetics...there is room for all kinds of people in the hobby...i wish i could work with everything but that's not practical.....

to me, ratsnakes and kingsnakes are wild animals..... studying their habits and behaviors in the wild is the big thing for me. having one is just having a tiny peice of nature in my crib. this is why i never have kept morphs save for one albino burm years ago. some people strive to domesticate them and that's ok too..... i just like the wildness in things. it's all good!:no1:


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

HABU said:


> some people like snakes and wildlife in general. some people just have pets. others are into the genetics...there is room for all kinds of people in the hobby...i wish i could work with everything but that's not practical.....
> 
> to me, ratsnakes and kingsnakes are wild animals..... studying their habits and behaviors in the wild is the big thing for me. having one is just having a tiny peice of nature in my crib. this is why i never have kept morphs save for one albino burm years ago. some people strive to domesticate them and that's ok too..... i just like the wildness in things. it's all good!:no1:


 
I sometimes wonder how i'd actually feel if the americans were doing morphs or our native species:lol2:

Dont get me wrong, i love pretty much every animal on the planet, just every animal doesn't fit into my needs/requirements now


with you on the "all kinds of people" thing:no1: i personally reckon than the majority of the big 5 should be licenced in some way, but i respect peoples reasons for having/wanting them and thats why i dont bang on about it, i just wish the repspect was a general thing across every species of animal, be that inverts, reptiles, amphibians or fish, hell this year, ive suddenly gone slowly down the sideline of inverts, something that ive never done before:lol2:


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

Interesting topic as im on both sides of this. I have a group of animals that are all MY animals, my pets and i'd never get rid of them unless i really had to. That includes my breeding group of Cresties, and my pair of mossies (which yes do bring in some money) but also my Whites tree frogs, which were my 1st ever herp and i love them to bits, even though theyre worth nothing and not rare or anything, i think theyre brilliant!

However i also have other animals, ones that i've bred and intend to sell, and at the moment ones that im keeping for friends who need to sell them but circumstances mean they dont have time to put the effort in. These animals i have no real problem in selling, although everytime an animal leaves i do miss it. I've ended up selling quite a few geckos this year, not from my personal breeding group but others and although there are some i'd really have rathered hung onto, it was necessary at the time.

I do however hate seeing the threads that do constantly come up with 'im getting rid of this because im bored' and 'this has to go now because ive got new things coming this weekend'. To me, that shows no commitment to the animal and its needs. If you are going to order new animals before you've sold the existing ones and you havent the space to house them all, then you arent thinking about the animals needs, and its inevitably going to lead to them selling it to the 'wrong person' as they need it gone. I dont view animals as possesions, they are all family members no matter how long they stay here (and all get named too!lol) and although i understand peoples collections and interests changing i do very much agree that the attitude of some members on here is sickening when everything is such a rush and the old ones 'must be gotten rid of'.


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

captaincaveman said:


> I sometimes wonder how i'd actually feel if the americans were doing morphs or our native species:lol2:
> 
> Dont get me wrong, i love pretty much every animal on the planet, just every animal doesn't fit into my needs/requirements now
> 
> ...


Agreed about big 5 regs.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

captaincaveman said:


> It seems to be a daily occurence dude:lol2:, especially the morph side:lol2:


I don't put them down.......


I put them outside for the crows :whistling2:





On a more serious note here though i can't honestly see where the TRUE problem is. In one breath it looks like you're not happy that others want a constant challenge, in another it seems you insinuate care will be effected and in another you stereotype people.

It is very clear to me that you have a problem, i just don't see what it really is :crazy:


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## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

i feel its the nature of the hobby and especially on this forum people sell animals for genuine reasons. Unfortunatly everything with reptiles takes time people my not have the time to keep so many so need to sell, by the time someone knows the sex of animal its incompatable to their requirements etc. I also feel that the large number of sales is good as it keep wild caught animals at a minimum therfore dont damaging wild populations and provideing a health captive breeding society


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## This is my Clone (Jul 8, 2007)

My concern is not for people selling often, but people who seem to buy EVERYTHING! By everything I don't mean they have a varied collection. I mean they buy something because it is cheap and pretty, then post 5 minutes after getting it asking what to feed it etc....
We should worry about the complusive buyers!!!


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

skimsa said:


> I also feel that the large number of sales is good as it keep wild caught animals at a minimum therfore dont damaging wild populations and provideing a health captive breeding society


:lol2::lol2:

No comment your honour


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

This is my Clone said:


> My concern is not for people selling often, but people who seem to buy EVERYTHING! By everything I don't mean they have a varied collection. I mean they buy something because it is cheap and pretty, then post 5 minutes after getting it asking what to feed it etc....
> We should worry about the complusive buyers!!!


 
oh i reallllllly do worry about that..... you can count down to the minute its going to get too much and theyll implode sometimes!


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

I`M doing it in reverse at the moment as much as i love my pythons i`m finding i`m most interested in the young corms i got off wethe people at the mo.
Real livewire little snakes


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

reticulatus said:


> I don't put them down.......
> 
> 
> I put them outside for the crows :whistling2:
> ...


 
read over my threads, i have no problems with people wanting a constant challenge:Na_Na_Na_Na:, i said that not everyone wants that , also i dont think i stereotyped anyone, quite the opposite, for instance, there are some big snake keepers who do it for the bravado(weve all met them), others for a genuine interest in particular species, others for the challenge:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

This is my Clone said:


> My concern is not for people selling often, but people who seem to buy EVERYTHING! By everything I don't mean they have a varied collection. I mean they buy something because it is cheap and pretty, then post 5 minutes after getting it asking what to feed it etc....
> We should worry about the complusive buyers!!!


yeah, there is no excuse for people not to have some knowlege under their belts nowadays..... so much is availible to read about almost anything. not like the old days.... we had to fly by the seat of our pants.... and make everything we used.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> see i disagree, cs.com is not stagnent in anyway. theres keepers on there who have kept corns for 30+ years and still have a massive passion for it, it took me 18years to find my love of corns


What I meant was that corns seem to be most peoples starter species and if people didn't sell their corns they would have no room to move on to other species. As a result we wouldn't see the same variety of species being kept in the hobby. Maybe the hobby wouldn't stagnate because there would continue to be developments, but these would be in a much smaller number of species.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

captaincaveman said:


> read over my threads, i have no problems with people wanting a constant challenge:Na_Na_Na_Na:, i said that not everyone wants that , also i dont think i stereotyped anyone, quite the opposite, for instance, there are some big snake keepers who do it for the bravado(weve all met them), others for a genuine interest in particular species, others for the challenge:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


ok, SO WHAT REALLY IS THE PROBLEM? 

You have to admit that so far you have managed to skirt around the issue and not actually say what the problem is.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Luton Reptile Rescue said:


> Agreed about big 5 regs.


do you see any pattern in the big 5? when i used to rehome, the big problems were iggys, niles and boscs

I once made the mistake of giving out my address only to find a green iggy and two nile monitors on my doorstep in a few boxes overnight, which i told the owners i couldn't house at that particular time over the phone:censor:


after that i collected:lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

most species are just fine population-wise over here... so many snakes love it around humans...


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

reticulatus said:


> ok, SO WHAT REALLY IS THE PROBLEM?
> 
> You have to admit that so far you have managed to skirt around the issue and not actually say what the problem is.


 
:lol2: i think its all in the posts:whistling2::lol2: they are long enough:lol2:


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

captaincaveman said:


> :lol2: i think its all in the posts:whistling2::lol2: they are long enough:lol2:


What, hidden with one letter in every line of each post?
You've been about as clear as mud!!:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

essexchondro said:


> What I meant was that corns seem to be most peoples starter species and if people didn't sell their corns they would have no room to move on to other species. As a result we wouldn't see the same variety of species being kept in the hobby. Maybe the hobby wouldn't stagnate because there would continue to be developments, but these would be in a much smaller number of species.


 
yeah, its possible cause im in a group of people who are corn people, rather than the starter type of keepers, like i say. i have no problem with people selling for a change, boredom is probably a bad reason, along with the not researching issue too, but beyond that, sell away:no1:


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## snickers (Aug 15, 2007)

There are loads of reasons for buying an animal and selling it a few months later. Or swapping one snake for another. Most of them are nothing to do with 'throw away pets'.

People who buy and sell snakes are what keeps the hobby going. How do you find a 3 year old female carpet to go with your male if you can't find anyone who's going to sell theirs.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)




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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

snickers said:


> There are loads of reasons for buying an animal and selling it a few months later. Or swapping one snake for another. Most of them are nothing to do with 'throw away pets'.
> 
> People who buy and sell snakes are what keeps the hobby going. How do you find a 3 year old female carpet to go with your male if you can't find anyone who's going to sell theirs.


 

:no1::notworthy:


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

captaincaveman said:


> do you see any pattern in the big 5? when i used to rehome, the big problems were iggys, niles and boscs
> 
> I once made the mistake of giving out my address only to find a green iggy and two nile monitors on my doorstep in a few boxes overnight, which i told the owners i couldn't house at that particular time over the phone:censor:
> 
> ...


i used to have the same problem i find may is a bad time for large snakes. every year. no idea why. also march is a normal time for me to receive loadsa beardies. but yeah igs are the main problem


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i called them red ratsnakes till i came here!


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

reticulatus said:


> What, hidden with one letter in every line of each post?
> You've been about as clear as mud!!:Na_Na_Na_Na:


 
basically i believe there are certain people who have an elitist attitude towards certain species, and feel that its fine to rubbish others people enjoyement in the hobby, everyone else got it:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Luton Reptile Rescue said:


> i used to have the same problem i find may is a bad time for large snakes. every year. no idea why. also march is a normal time for me to receive loadsa beardies. but yeah igs are the main problem


 
seriously, i thought the iggy thing would have phased out by now, do you remember when every shop in the country(or it seemed that way), had baby iggys?

wonder why large snakes and beardies are at that time?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

captaincaveman said:


> basically i believe there are certain people who have an elitist attitude towards certain species, and feel that its fine to rubbish others people enjoyement in the hobby, everyone else got it:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


See, now i'm even more confused.
I can understand why you would say that, although i would suggest that PERHAPS a lot of that is your own insecurities and paranoia rather than genuine elitism.

However, that has got absolutely b*gger all to do with trading so now i'm back to square one :blush:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i keep a few high end snakes...but i still love my good 'ole garter snake!


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

reticulatus said:


> See, now i'm even more confused.
> I can understand why you would say that, although i would suggest that PERHAPS a lot of that is your own insecurities and paranoia rather than genuine elitism.
> 
> However, that has got absolutely b*gger all to do with trading so now i'm back to square one :blush:


 
No, its not just me, the morph side is slated on a regular basis(and i know its not everyones cut of tea), It came on this thread(well from me), because of the comment of "multi coloured swap shop", but was also down to the niggling annoyance at the anti morph threads over recent months and they just got bundled into one big rant:lol2:, plus the constant insults of corns and royals over the recent months(morphs or not)


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

HABU said:


> i keep a few high end snakes...but i still love my good 'ole garter snake!


yup, i still miss my florida blue:no1:


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

burrow said:


> I've never known a forum like this one. All people do is bicker at one another. I don't understand why we can't all just do things our own way and stop judging or criticising people for doing something that we don't necessarily like or agree with.


Not bickering at all, just raising a topic for discussion. If everyone just said 'nice set up' when a picture of a viv with an unguarded heat source was posted, or 'yeah, go for it' when a 15 year old asks 'can I have a 16ft burm for my first snake?' etc, then not only would this forum (an many others) be a much quieter place, but would also be hugely less informative.



burrow said:


> Another thing we all need to remember is that what is said on the internet can be completely misinterpreted because you cannot tell what way/tone the person is talking in.
> 
> Someone selling reptiles on here may seem like they don't care, when actually they do. They amount of times i've seen 'i didn't mean for it to sound like that'!


I absolutely agree. Many things can be misinterpreted on these forums. However, I feel my point still stands even if some _genuine_ sellers may come across as uncaring.



burrow said:


> All this reminds me of being back at school. It's petty.


At school, we encourage the pupils to have opinions and to discuss their ideas and feelings openly and in a mature and confident manner. We do not encourage them to nod and turn a blind eye to things that concern them.

What are these forums for, if not to discuss issues about the hobby?

Cheers


Andy

(yep, it's out of the bag now, I am indeed a school teacher (science/biology 11-18 year olds))


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

it's the same thing with fishkeeping......purists and captive made fish.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

OOPS!!!!


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

captaincaveman said:


> No, its not just me, the morph side is slated on a regular basis(and i know its not everyones cut of tea), It came on this thread(well from me), because of the comment of "multi coloured swap shop", but was also down to the niggling annoyance at the anti morph threads over recent months and they just got bundled into one big rant:lol2:, plus the constant insults of corns and royals over the recent months(morphs or not)


Hmmmm.....

Is the morph side slated because of elitism? I seriously doubt that, it is slated because it's not "natural" in the eyes of many people.

It is ok for you to bring up stereotypes (which you do) and suggest that the majority can't look after large pythons?

Is it ok for you to be angry/upset/what ever (you get the point) because people don't like royals and corns?

I think i have every right to call you an elitist because you think it is good to have morphs and because you think large constrictors should be regulated.

This is a two way street here, respect going both ways.


P.S
All this is hypothetical, i couldn't care less what anyone does as long as the animal is healthy but i can't sleep and its as good a debate as i am going to get.


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## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

what will be will be! i for one dont like having to sell or swap snakes that i have, but needs must sometimes, i have done MANY a swap/part ex etc over the years...and as said by others...how would i have moved on from that first little rat snake etc to what i own now? the animals best welfare is my main concern! and while in my care it is looked after to the best of my ability and i expect the same of a new home or even better in fact...but the snake does not care about losing his "daddy" etc ...tbh I am the one almost blubbering when certain ones have gone! :lol2: but as long as they go to the best possible home i see nothing wrong with it.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

with where i live, it may be understandible why i'm a nature nut!...snakes are nature to me....... apples and oranges....or erm, largemouth bass and goldfish!


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

reticulatus said:


> Yup, i too agree with Stu.
> 
> At the end of the day these animals couldn't give a rats ass who owns them.


If some one has them that does not want them.... they will be better off with someone who does.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

When I first saw this thread I assumed it was actually going to be about the number of animals dying and therefore being thrown away.

Take a look at the R.I.P. Forum... a whole page of animals that have died this month and we are only half way through it. The number of deaths on new years day was staggering.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

reticulatus said:


> Hmmmm.....
> 
> Is the morph side slated because of elitism? I seriously doubt that, it is slated because it's not "natural" in the eyes of many people.
> 
> ...


 
:lol2: No i actually said that even though i think that it would be a good idea that i dont go on about it and respect big keepers views, im not saying the majority of big snake keepers are bad keepers, i never siad anything like it, infact the opposite, i believe that licencing would mean the good keepers would actiually keep the animals they love and the ones who keep them for the wrong reasons would have another hurdle between them and an impulse buy

My point is many members slate corns, calling them worms, boring etc etc, rather than respecting others choice in species, also why not respect that even though someone personally disagrees with morphs, if there is no harm to the animal, what does it matter? why "slate" anyone for their choice in species?

Before you mention inbreeding, i know of many wild type breeders who also inbreed as much as the morph people for a number of reasons, small gene pools cause of a small collection, cleaning up of dirty natural patterns with selective breeding etc etc unless you keep wild caught or breed(or someone tyou know breed) from wild caught you can never be 100% sure of that

Ive personally seen this in many snakes such as common boas, carpets and rainbow boas



All im saying, is why slate anyone for whatever they choose to keep? surely that aint right?


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

I knew this thread would 'go off on one!'. I thought I had made it incredibly clear that I have *no issue what so ever* with people selling or swapping animals for genuine reasons. My issue was with the apparent 'throw away' attitude (hence the post title) that some people seem to have when it comes to the animals in their care. 

I have no problem with selling animals (or swapping in some cases, particularly when breeding (i.e. males for females, new blood, different morphs etc)). I do have a problem with people dropping animals after only months of owning them, purely to raise money for a new animal, or because they can't afford to house the animal now its grown or whatever. This smacks of complete ignorance on the part of the buyer, having no idea of what they are getting into, or only having it in the first place for the wrong reasons.

I am certainly not stereotyping in any way what so ever, as has been suggested. If you sell or swap reptiles regularly and do so for genuine reasons, then fine, I don't have a problem.

Someone mentioned that people might be over reacting 'cos of there own insecurities, maybe this is a case of pots calling kettles black - why get so defensive if you are a genuine seller/swapper? After all I made it very clear I had no issue with them!

cheers


Andy


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

My comment about the multi coloured swap shop was a reference to the BBC programme in the seventies where kids swopped things .
Not a dig a morph keepers .


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> My point is many members slate corns, calling them worms, boring etc etc, rather than respecting others choice in species, also why not respect that even though someone personally disagrees with morphs, if there is no harm to the animal, what does it matter? why "slate" anyone for their choice in species?


I think you'll find that this happens because corn keepers tend to rise to it so well . A very good friend of mine calls all my rat snake species worms too... but he knows I really and honestly could not care less... so we don't fall out over it


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

darwengray said:


> My comment about the multi coloured swap shop was a reference to the BBC programme in the seventies where kids swopped things .
> Not a dig a morph keepers .


 
Yeah i remember it, that was me reading too much into it:lol2:

maybe the term "multi coloured" fitted the morph trading thing too well:whistling2::lol2: i appologise for 1+1=3:blush:


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

ratboy said:


> I think you'll find that this happens because corn keepers tend to rise to it so well . A very good friend of mine calls all my rat snake species worms too... but he knows I really and honestly could not care less... so we don't fall out over it


 
yeah, ive just met so many big snake/small penis types over the years, that maybe i was already on the defensive, i do usually take it as funny, but some do get a bit personal and do smell a bit of elitism:whistling2::lol2:


Now dont assume i mean all big snake keepers, just a small but ever present percentage:no1:


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Not read the whole thread, but from the original post this is where I stand.

I've been around all sorts of animals since the day I was born, and was brought up that an animal was for life not just for x amount of time. I fully research any animal before buying, it was a requirement imposed on me growing up, so i knew whether or not the animal would be suitable. And to be honest i'm really thankful I was raised in that way.

I've never once become bored with an animal, and i've never sold any animal unless they've been bred to sell.. So rabbits,rats,gerbils,mice,dogs etc we've bred in the past (pure bred dogs - dad used to breed staffys once upon a time).

I understand some people see the latest designer morph and want it, but personally i wouldn't trade any of my snakes to help get that morph. If i didn't have the funds or the space, i'm of the mentality that i would wait until I could afford it or have room.

Everyones entitled to do what they want, and i understand some people have genuine reasons for selling..but i'm with the op that alot of people seem to see a morph n immediately go on the 'i want that..' mentality or that they're suddenly bored.

Maybe i'm a miserable sod but i don't understand how anyone can get bored of any animal. i can honestly say i've never bored of anything i've owned n find great enjoyment in all of them in different ways.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i rarely talked about my hobbies till i came here. i worked in some shops but 99.99% of customers were starters.... most of us here are a private lot.... about everyone thinks you're weird for liking a snake or catching them...$25 for a snake!!! they would say...so around here you keep it to yourself..... the internet changed all of that!:no1::lol2:


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

HABU said:


> i rarely talked about my hobbies till i came here. i worked in some shops but 99.99% of customers were starters.... most of us here are a private lot.... about everyone thinks you're weird for liking a snake or catching them...$25 for a snake!!! they would say...so around here you keep it to yourself..... the internet changed all of that!:no1::lol2:


:lol2:


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## zirliz (Nov 15, 2006)

Last October I had to downsize my collection broke my heart I gave my Fire bellied toads to the college,
I gave my hissing cockroaches and mice to a pet store
I gave my anoles to another pet shop closer to home
I made no money off any of these
Was meant to give my Tyany (Tarantula) away also
and my snails and hermits but luckily presuaded my mother to keep them along with my Boa.
I also came very close to selling my garters simply to make back a little on what I'd spent on them.
And did think about selling my Boa (As I've no idea where I'll be next year, and I worry about my mam and that big snake)

As I said it was painful handing them on to someone else but as I was caught for having them in Uni, where no pets are allowed, image they're shock.

However it seems I can't stay clean and pet free as it were I took my other snails Margies with me back to the very place it's risky to own them, then got 3 baby spiders (Just ordered more),
2 baby scorops
2 pink legged millipeds
stick insects again (After a year break)
Another goldfsih keep bringing these home each time
My garters
and 4-5 species of GALS 

I think i have a problem

But yes I don't agree with someone 'upgrading' as it were for new 'model' of snake


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I agree completely mate I was actually talking about this with someone the other day.


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## Dirtydozen (Feb 7, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> Sorry but why shouldn't people pick what they want at the time and then sell/swap it when they want to move on?? You seem to be suggesting that this kind of behaviour automatically means that the animal is being mistreated in some way. That is not necessarily the case at all.
> 
> Just because you dont keep an animal for its entire life does not mean that that animal suffers in any way. We are talking about reptiles here, not pets like dogs that develop strong emotional bonds with their owners. The whole concept of "a pet is for life" doesn't really apply to reptiles in the way that it does with dogs etc.


 
totally agree with you there mate


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> I do have a problem with people dropping animals after only months of owning them, purely to raise money for a new animal, or because they can't afford to house the animal now its grown or whatever. This smacks of complete ignorance on the part of the buyer, having no idea of what they are getting into, or only having it in the first place for the wrong reasons.


I agree with you, and I've posted on here many times criticising the lack of research that people seem to do before making their purchase. However, looking at the bigger and more immediate picture, the kind of person that doesn't do their research beforehand is probably the type of person that wont do it at any point - they are just irresponsible keepers end of story! If this is the case then probably the best thing they can do is put the animal up for sale when they get bored with it a month or two down the line or when it grows out of that overly small viv. That way at least the reptile has another shot at being bought by someone responsible. Far better for a reptile to have 10 responsible owners over its 25 year lifetime that one bad owner who'll ensure it never attains anything like 25 years of life!!


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

essexchondro said:


> I agree with you, and I've posted on here many times criticising the lack of research that people seem to do before making their purchase. However, looking at the bigger and more immediate picture, the kind of person that doesn't do their research beforehand is probably the type of person that wont do it at any point - they are just irresponsible keepers end of story! If this is the case then probably the best thing they can do is put the animal up for sale when they get bored with it a month or two down the line or when it grows out of that overly small viv. That way at least the reptile has another shot at being bought by someone responsible. Far better for a reptile to have 10 responsible owners over its 25 year lifetime that one bad owner who'll ensure it never attains anything like 25 years of life!!


 
:no1:


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> I agree with you, and I've posted on here many times criticising the lack of research that people seem to do before making their purchase. However, looking at the bigger and more immediate picture, the kind of person that doesn't do their research beforehand is probably the type of person that wont do it at any point - they are just irresponsible keepers end of story! If this is the case then probably the best thing they can do is put the animal up for sale when they get bored with it a month or two down the line or when it grows out of that overly small viv. That way at least the reptile has another shot at being bought by someone responsible. Far better for a reptile to have 10 responsible owners over its 25 year lifetime that one bad owner who'll ensure it never attains anything like 25 years of life!!


 
Good Point, well made:notworthy:!

Cheers

Andy


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

Hmm, I think I would feel far too guilty if I sold or swapped any of my snakes because I wouldn't know where they would end up in the future. I wouldn't want them to be badly treated and I kind of feel that by buying them I have a responsibility to care for them as long as possible.

I do have corns at the moment and they aren't exactly my passion...there are some snake species that I would far prefer to own but if it came down to it I still wouldn't pass them on. I don't think its fair to say they are boring. I think that what people say they are boring all they really mean is that they are "common" and therefore not seen as "interesting" or "exciting" to own but I think thats a little harsh...why should it matter if heaps of other people own them? My personal reason for not enjoying them as much is that I like my chunky snakes. I prefer big chunky boas :blush:...and no, thats not a penis size issue :roll:.

The only reason I could s ee myself selling up would be if I had huge financial problems (not enough money to feed myself let alone the snakes) or if it got to the point where I could no longer care for them through illness.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

intravenous said:


> Hmm, I think I would feel far too guilty if I sold or swapped any of my snakes because I wouldn't know where they would end up in the future. I wouldn't want them to be badly treated and I kind of feel that by buying them I have a responsibility to care for them as long as possible.
> 
> I do have corns at the moment and they aren't exactly my passion...there are some snake species that I would far prefer to own but if it came down to it I still wouldn't pass them on. I don't think its fair to say they are boring. I think that what people say they are boring all they really mean is that they are "common" and therefore not seen as "interesting" or "exciting" to own but I think thats a little harsh...why should it matter if heaps of other people own them? My personal reason for not enjoying them as much is that I like my chunky snakes. I prefer big chunky boas :blush:...and no, thats not a penis size issue :roll:.
> 
> The only reason I could s ee myself selling up would be if I had huge financial problems (not enough money to feed myself let alone the snakes) or if it got to the point where I could no longer care for them through illness.


 
I didn't mean that all big snake keepers have an inferiorority complex, but weve all met the sort i meant, a small percentage, the same sort of people who keep particualr breeds of dog for the same kudos:lol2:


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