# seller at doncaster



## batcode

hi just asking at doncaster there was a trader from germany selling reptiles he has them in white tubs with clear tops he was in the middle isle next to a trader with turtles etc he was also there at junes show and at creaks in july what trying find out has anyone had problems with anything they have brought from him ???? ive had few things from him and on tue i had to take a lizerd my daughter brought from him without me knowing to the vets and wasnt a good visit if anyone has had problems please let me know as this wasnt the first time but i will not buy from him again and advise caution


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## penfold

batcode said:


> hi just asking at doncaster there was a trader from germany selling reptiles he has them in white tubs with clear tops he was in the middle isle next to a trader with turtles etc he was also there at junes show and at creaks in july what trying find out has anyone had problems with anything they have brought from him ???? ive had few things from him and on tue i had to take a lizerd my daughter brought from him without me knowing to the vets and wasnt a good visit if anyone has had problems please let me know as this wasnt the first time but i will not buy from him again and advise caution


 for some reason the germans are allowed to sell wild caurght


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## JamesJ

I know someone who had a trio of tricoloured hognoses off him at creaks, all seemed fine they were feeding well but within 6 weeks all 3 were dead! Funnily enough the breeder asked how they were getting on at doncaster and when told they all died he pretty much shrugged it off. I've heard numerous people talking about his animals dying.. not gonna get himself a good name the way he is going.


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## Darlo_Gal

I liked the look of some of his lizards but remembered hearing a few thing about them from previous so left them alone.


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## Spikebrit

International sellers are allowed to sell WC at shows. All of theirs were completely Wc and very recent by the looks of it, most appeared to be untreated. Some of their CF stuff were still absorbing their egg sac as well. 

A couple of high profile breeders/importers and shop owners i know had a look at their stock and couldn't believe they were selling it as lots appeared to be in ill health and dehydrated. 

Jay


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## batcode

well i had a lizard from him at junes donnie and at creaks i had something else from him and the one was dead within month the other in a week at donnie on sunday my daughter who is 18 went off on her own and came back to me with a leatherback beadie from him but was dead by tuesday i asked her where was from and did try return it due to his reps dieing but as someone put he did not seem intrested or even care personally i think its disguesting and the bad part is it gives all the other great breeders who do a great job a bad name and in this day and age its traders like that who we could do without its bad enougth with the :censor:antis etc


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## Jazzy B Bunny

I didn't go to donny, but was this the guy selling the little milk frogs? If so I'll avoid buying any from him... Was going to have a look out for these at PRAS.


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## JamesJ

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> I didn't go to donny, but was this the guy selling the little milk frogs? If so I'll avoid buying any from him... Was going to have a look out for these at PRAS.


Not sure about milk frogs but he has a wide range of animals, he has pacman frogs, tricolour Hognoses, rankins dragons, dwarf day geckos (klemmeri and williamsi), chameleons to name a few... he doesn't have prices on the tubs (square white plastic with clear tops) and puts "1,0" instead of "1.0" (european thing lol)


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## Jazzy B Bunny

James_and_Hana said:


> Not sure about milk frogs but he has a wide range of animals, he has pacman frogs, tricolour Hognoses, rankins dragons, dwarf day geckos (klemmeri and williamsi), chameleons to name a few... he doesn't have prices on the tubs (square white plastic with clear tops) and puts "1,0" instead of "1.0" (european thing lol)


Thanks, I'll make sure I avoid him!


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## manda88

Yeah it was him with the milks, Jazzy, he had a few peppermint horned frogs too and a bunch of other stuff that I didn't take much notice of, but the fact everything was in German and had no prices put me off anyway.
Sorry to hear about everyone's losses from that guy, it sucks that it's not easy to be reimbursed by him either. The milk frogs looked far too small to be fit to sell anyway in all honesty, they were TINY, I genuinely don't think they were far out of tadpole stage.


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## Jazzy B Bunny

How come they were allowed to be sold. Do you think he will be banned from future shows? Doesn't sound too good 
Anyone know if he has a website?


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## penfold

I want to know why they get one set of rules and we have another


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## Mujician

Well, I just learned the hard way. Bought a pair of L Williamsi and a pair if L Pulcher from him. One of the tri colours is dead now. Still, I got his email and home address. If I don't hear back from him I'm going to contact the IHS and suggest he shouldn't be allowed to trade. I'm guessing the other snake is a time bomb, but he looks healthy for now.


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## batcode

*re*

i agree with penfold thu ive never attended a show other than a buyer i hope one day i can but it should be the same set of rules no matter what or where they come from as end day the rules are there to protect both breeders and buyers and the whole reptile industry(sorry not sure how put it mean keeping reps,breeding, selling etc) just feel at moment 1 bad apple at shows could have an effect on all i dont know how it is with uk breeders trading at european shows ,but the fact is he shouldent be selling reps as not once did i see if it was cb or wc on his labels that is if u can read them as in german but he shouldent be selling reps in such poor state or that we are buying only for them to die shortley lets hopoe that the orginisers can take things into respect on this as i do know he will be attending the next creaks show soory if stirred up a hornets nest just wondered if anybody had same bad experince i did and wanted to warn others as end day it not the reptiles fault


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## snakeprint

Personally I think the IHS ought to be made aware of the number of issues people have had with the reptiles this bloke was selling. If they don't know about it, they can't do anything about it. Like Ben (Mujician) said, we've learned the hard way, but it's an expensive lesson to learn. Hopefully we'll get a satisfactory response to the e-mail Ben sent, but if not, I won't have a problem telling everybody on here the chap's name and any other details I think might help people identify him. I'm not saying he's a bad bloke - and the tricolour hognose that's died in the four days since buying it from him might be an unlucky one off - but this thread does seem to suggest otherwise. Incidentally, I googled him earlier and found him on a very long list of people exhibiting at Hamm (not sure if it was a future or past show though) and a number of other shows across Europe, so I'm sure he'll be back again.
For now, the day geckos we had off him seem absolutely fine - caught the male shedding today without any trouble - so hopefully there won't be any problems with them in the future but I'll be keeping a very close eye on them. It hasn't done much for my confidence in buying from shows.

Oh, and as for the labels he had on the animals - ours said NZ whatever that means in German. I tried translating wild caught, captive bred and captive farmed online and didn't get anything that might be abbreviated to NZ. There wasn't a date next to it or anything.


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## Tombo46

I'm kinda glad he didn't take my bid on the 3 Ackies now! I have no opinion on the guy other than I found him a bit rude.

I also didn't know that European's run by a different set of rules.


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## vetdebbie

You can add 2 out of 3 L williamsii dead from him too for me


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## crazeemaz

I asked him about his hognoses but I thought he seemed standoffish and rude and they were overpriced in my opinion so I walked away! Glad I did now!

Sounds like his reputation is bad and he was a right miserable git!


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## Mujician

vetdebbie said:


> You can add 2 out of 3 L williamsii dead from him too for me


Did you get them on Sunday? Or at a previous show?


I am a member on a german reptile forum. I'm going to see if they know about him. If he doesn't reply to my email, I'm gonna kick ass and make sure everyone knows his name


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## jav07

penfold said:


> I want to know why they get one set of rules and we have another


 lol i thought you were joking..so because he was from Germany he was allowed to sell wild caught?


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## penfold

jav07 said:


> lol i thought you were joking..so because he was from Germany he was allowed to sell wild caught?


And because they don't have pet shop licences in Germany he is allowed tables even though he is a business the same as the guy with all the captive farmed tortoises both businesses


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## Jazzy B Bunny

Really sad to hear about all the deaths


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## jav07

penfold said:


> And because they don't have pet shop licences in Germany he is allowed tables even though he is a business the same as the guy with all the captive farmed tortoises both businesses


 i suppose the PSL is a bit of a grey area,but can't belive he was allowed to sell wild caught.What did the organisers say?


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## s3xy_sheep

wonder if i should argue that international card as the show is in england and I am from wales 

guy sounds like a :censor: name an shame him so we can all avoid him


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## Mujician

Mod edit - {Sorry guys - on your side with this, but forum rules is forum rules - no naming and shaming. There is enough info on the thread from people to find out if they need to (or pm Mujician if you're interested, but it can't go on the public boards}


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## manda88

Mujician said:


> Well, I just learned the hard way. Bought a pair of L Williamsi and a pair if L Pulcher from him. One of the tri colours is dead now. Still, I got his email and home address. If I don't hear back from him I'm going to contact the IHS and suggest he shouldn't be allowed to trade. I'm guessing the other snake is a time bomb, but he looks healthy for now.





vetdebbie said:


> You can add 2 out of 3 L williamsii dead from him too for me


Really sorry to hear about your losses  Hopefully you can get hold of him and get some kind of reimbursement cos that's ridiculous, poor things.


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## Mujician

I've got lots of pictures of my snake, ready to send to the seller. If he responds. If he doesn't (and I've given him til the end of the week), I'll stick them up on all the big European forums and send them to the IHS. I also have his postal address......


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## chris_wade

Mujician said:


> I've got lots of pictures of my snake, ready to send to the seller. If he responds. If he doesn't (and I've given him til the end of the week), I'll stick them up on all the big European forums and send them to the IHS. I also have his postal address......


 
well next trip to hamm we can pay him a visit haha


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## Mujician

Maybe no need as he's likely to be there! If not, it's only an hours drive to his house from Hamm!


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## chris_wade

any idea if he's booked tables at the shows left this year? i.e essex or kidderminster or doncaster? has he been at many shows before this doncaster one?


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## pigglywiggly

he was at creaks earlier this year


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## Mujician

Yes, he's been to Doncaster before, at least once. He's a regular at lots of European shows all the way to Italy I think is the furthest one away. I think he's more of a business man than someone who cares about the animals welfare. I'm guessing that he doesn't bother about giving them water while they're travelling.


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## chris_wade

so has anyone had problems with him from past shows? if so im surprised no ones lamped him one.


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## JamesJ

The tricoloured hogs I mentioned were from the creaks show.

Gotta feel sorry for the animals if he's hauling them all over Europe and most are wc / cf its no wonder they are dying from stress if nothing else


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## Mal

Im shocked reading this thread. Im glad I resisted temptation to buy from him. Very sad for the people who have lost animals they purchased from him. It would be a good idea if everyone who has had problems sent an email to the IHS so that they can look into it. A one off loss is sad but multiple losses of animals all from the same dealer really needs looking in to.


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## DragonHelm

*re*

I bought i pair of frilleds from him in June they are both fine. they were marked Australian he said they were bred in a zoo. not sure they are Ausys though.


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## BenjaminBoaz

penfold said:


> for some reason the germans are allowed to sell wild caurght


Your not allowed to sell Wc animals, the problem is people say the animals are Long term captive and that some how makes it ok.
I'm not sure what to say about captive farmed tortoises. Is it that he has loads outside and breeds them or is he importing them from a farm in another country to Germany first? 
I'm not keen on the LTC tag. Too many people go to Hamm and bring back stock to put on their tables and if questioned say LTC or I bought it for my collection but have changed my mind. You can usually spot that stuff a mile off. The organisers are suppose to check tables, I can understand something being missed but not complete tables. Again if your not happy about something guys, please voice your opinions on the day to a steward and then may be something can be done. Seems people wait till after the show rather that during the show. 
Sad to hear of losses. Could some of it be down to stress of travelling, they are coming a long way?


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## chris_wade

DragonHelm said:


> I bought i pair of frilleds from him in June they are both fine. they were marked Australian he said they were bred in a zoo. not sure they are Ausys though.


 
a lucky buy by the sounds of it.


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## DonH

brought the golden tegs off this chap and a small lizard cant remember the name of it atm at donny the other week one teg im having to syringe water etc as it just isnt interested


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## beege_3

To be honest, I'm not overly surprised by this when I tried to converse with he guy about his stock on Sunday (in both English and German) he was very reluctant to give any direct answers.. 

I'm sorry for those who lost animals, and going by the shear number of losses it's pretty safe to say it isn't just a one off or due to the stress of travelling. IHS should outright ban him from having the ability to book a table after all he is at their show and it drags their name down with him.


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## BenjaminBoaz

I wouldn't normally give out people's details but Ive just been on the IHS website (westmidlands) and found organisers details. I have just copied and pasted here so don't see there being an issue as it only took me 45 seconds to find, something that anyone could do:

For bookings for all 3 events please contact : Richard Brook on 01274 548342 or e-mail him at either [email protected] or [email protected]


If you have a complaint you know what to do...


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## Nodders

I remember that guy , he was at both shows I attended this year . I gave up with him having no prices on anything and continually having to ask put me off . I also saw the milk frogs , my daughter quite fancied them but they were miniscule .

Something I did see and was'nt particularly happy with if it was me was .. He had a few green iguanas I think they were , dotted around the table , a customer next to me offered him x amount for 4 , he agreed then took a sack from behind him and started pulling em out of there , I would have preferred to buy the ones I could see and not the ones hidden away , but then that's the customers choice I suppose .

Luckily never bought froom him on both occasions , but have to say I was tempted by a few of his reps .


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## colinm

I wonder whether it is good to discuss this on a public forum you never know who might be looking? Why not email Richard directly with your worries or complaints and let him answer.We dont want this to become a public flogging for him or the I.H.S. This could do a great deal of harm to the hobby and the shows in particular.
They need to know to rectify any problems but in the end its the buyers choice to chose to buy an animal or not and if they die the seller needs to know.There will be others who have bought from him and are happy with their purchases but they are not as voiciferous as people who have as those who aren`t.


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## Jazzy B Bunny

Nodders said:


> Something I did see and was'nt particularly happy with if it was me was .. He had a few green iguanas I think they were , dotted around the table , a customer next to me offered him x amount for 4 , he agreed then took a sack from behind him and started pulling em out of there , I would have preferred to buy the ones I could see and not the ones hidden away , but then that's the customers choice I suppose .


:gasp:


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## penfold

aparently ze germans are in essex today:whip:


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## Bradley

Just been to ERAC and he was there! nearly brought an ackie from him but this thread put me off slightly! He had the best stuff there and the things most people wanted. just a shame his animals ar not in the best of conditionsalthough all looked healthy on the table. If I had heard good reveiws I could have easily bought most things from his table. Also having to ask for prices slighlty put me off aswell


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## DanYeomans

I brought 3 pygmy chameleons of him at kiddi, one did die but the other 2 are thriving, looks like i was lucky


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## Totally Morphed

DanYeomans said:


> I brought 3 pygmy chameleons of him at kiddi, one did die but the other 2 are thriving, looks like i was lucky


Depends on your definition of lucky!


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## DanYeomans

Totally Morphed said:


> Depends on your definition of lucky!


 haha true, but i am lucky in the fact that the 2 are doiung really well and i am lucky in the fact that i have took these amazing reps of somebody who couldent care less about them and i have hopefully given them the best quality of life i can give


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## chris_wade

yeh he was there today, wonder how many others will suffer the same fate?


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## snakeprint

Just an update for those interested: The chap involved replied to Ben's email saying he was at Essex today if we could get, and he has replaced the dead snake. Although it's been a long drive and cost us a bit in petrol, we've had a nice day out. If people have had issues with animals bought from him recently, I suggest you get in touch with him via email and politely explain the problem. send Mujician a pm if you need his address. Fingers crossed this one survives!


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## Layla

Richard is already aware of him to a point as I mentioned to him he was being very cagey about giving contact details. The guy did give me a good amount of feeding info though. However as has been said, if people don't contact the IHS then they will never know there is a problem.
I checked out his snakes/ day geckos and they were in fabulous condition. I only found out after I bought a rare garter snake that vetdebbie had problems with chams.
So far the snake, who was a gift to a friend, is in very strict quarentine and about to slough. 
Its really sad to hear there have been so many problems, I hope no one else has any.
As for one rule for one and one for another there was a few goings on at the show that could be mentioned but lets not go there....as has been said, these threads could easily be watched by the wrong people. Things needs to be reported to the I.H.S. so the antis dont ruin it for the lot of us. And for those that knowingly break the rules no matter how small :bash: shame on you.


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## BenjaminBoaz

snakeprint said:


> Just an update for those interested: The chap involved replied to Ben's email saying he was at Essex today if we could get, and he has replaced the dead snake. Although it's been a long drive and cost us a bit in petrol, we've had a nice day out. If people have had issues with animals bought from him recently, I suggest you get in touch with him via email and politely explain the problem. send Mujician a pm if you need his address. Fingers crossed this one survives!


Nice one!


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## Danul

Wow just been to the show and I did buy 3 pygmys from the guy he was talkative and answered all my questions, sorry to hear about all your losses and fingers crossed for mine now... :/


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## oscarsi001

i was tempted by a couple of his herps but was warned away ...........might have been a wise move given the main cinent of this thread.......


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## oscarsi001

Layla said:


> Richard is already aware of him to a point as I mentioned to him he was being very cagey about giving contact details. The guy did give me a good amount of feeding info though. However as has been said, if people don't contact the IHS then they will never know there is a problem.
> I checked out his snakes/ day geckos and they were in fabulous condition. I only found out after I bought a rare garter snake that vetdebbie had problems with chams.
> So far the snake, who was a gift to a friend, is in very strict quarentine and about to slough.
> Its really sad to hear there have been so many problems, I hope no one else has any.
> As for one rule for one and one for another there was a few goings on at the show that could be mentioned but lets not go there....as has been said, these threads could easily be watched by the wrong people. Things needs to be reported to the I.H.S. so the antis dont ruin it for the lot of us. And for those that knowingly break the rules no matter how small :bash: shame on you.


have you considered contacting any of the show organisers about these 'goings-on' ????


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## tom495

as im sure youve seen from another thread about the essex show, i have fallen into this trap and have a very sick cornsnake now. I have contacted the organisers but as of yet nothing back from them. I will say if you see anyone that matches this description at a show. avoid like the plague!! Any help anyone can give with contact details for this person pls pvt message me.


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## chris_wade

from what i saw today all his animals looked in great condition. how can so many animals deteriorate so quickly from looking so healthy.


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## Mujician

My point of view: He is german, different language, different mannerisms etc, they also have very off senses of humour! If you talk to him like a human being, then he will respond likewise. He was quite happy for me to take out some of his stock and handle it. 
He's been travelling a lot with his animals, this would naturally induce stress would it not?
He obviously gets a lot of animals, is it not possible for him to ever buy in a poorly/sickly/weak animal? He was quite pleasant to me when I asked for a refund.

I don't think he's out to be a baddy, give him a break. I thought he was very professional, especially considering at donny he had a load of his stuff nicked from his table


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## tom495

Yes it is possible for him to pick up a sick animal and yes they have come along way so will be stressed. But and its a big but is it right for him to pass that on to his customers and if its such a long way should it be done. Animals should be checked thoroughly prior to sale it goes without saying. Im not saying all his animals are bad or that he is a bad person im simply saying i have a problem and by the looks of things im not the only one. All I want to do is get in touch with him to find out what hes going to do about it, I have a name now but thats it so as it stands it looks like im stuck with a sick snake and what will be a nice vet bill, so you can see why im peed off im sure if i get the same offer mujician got then i may feel he is an honest trader thats made a mistake but at the moment i feel cheated and out of pocket.


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## nessa76

Mujician said:


> Well, I just learned the hard way. Bought a pair of L Williamsi and a pair if L Pulcher from him. One of the tri colours is dead now. Still, I got his email and home address. If I don't hear back from him I'm going to contact the IHS and suggest he shouldn't be allowed to trade. I'm guessing the other snake is a time bomb, but he looks healthy for now.


I think the more that complain about him the better. Sorry to hear about the death of your tri-coloured hognose and everybody elses that died who bought from this german guy :sad:


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## Mujician

Id just like to add, that communication between the seller and the IHS has been instigated. In a correspondence to me from him he stated he would be in touch with them. I am no longer willing to give over his details as my problem was rectified, despite having to drive cheltenham to essex on sunday, Im quite happy with the way he responded. 

I do have to say that anyone purchasing anything should ask questions of they are not sure. If i didnt know what species something was at the tome of purchase I would have asked! People should also have asked him for his contact details at the time of purchase.

Despite a few problems with him, including my own, I would still recommend this guy as he's not out to screw anyone over. Also there was more than one german seller at donny, and I thingk perhaps some folks are jumping on the band wagon. It is also very easy to say my animal is dead, and get a refund or an extra animal. (Not that I believe anyone on this forum would act like that!)


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## Layla

Mujician said:


> People should also have asked him for his contact details at the time of purchase.


I did, THREE times, the 2nd I was actually returning to purchase a female for the male snake I bought! I shouldn't have to beg for contact details when it clearly states in the rules to provide them. Also at checking in prior to the show ALL table holders were given, at the door, a reminder to do so.

The contact was the only problem I have with this chap. We had a very pleasant exchange regarding the feeding habits of the garter I bought. I asked if he fed live, as a lot of europeans do, and he went through with me different things he feeds the garters. He only clammed up when I asked for contact/ website/ email. 

Now as a table holder myself I didn't have time to stand and annoy him I genuinely thought when he said come back later he was sincere. After the 3rd time, not so much . Now there was no attitude between us so why did he give details to some and not others? It makes no sense.

I also appreciated the fact he was on his own ( I was too but had the support of friends on neighbouring tables) and appeared to be watching the crowd closely, obviously he had not explained that he had animals stolen which is disgusting. 

His animals and his table looked a lot better turned out than some of the UK sellers. It would be interesting if any of the sudden death animal owners had their animals PM'd for a cause of death? Its very difficult as a table holder to be held accountable afterwards when you have no idea how the animals are looked after/ treated. At the same time as a buyer you would be understandably angry if your animal suddenly dies. 

Its a difficult situation, I hope those affected can be sorted.


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## adw

Well with all the negativity in this thread i thought I'd pop my experience with the seller on here, firstly I found him to be in a bit of a rush... which was to be expected due to the fact I saw him sell at least 10 animals on his own in around 20 mins and tbh I put that down to the fact he had rarer animals people wanted and all that I looked at seemed in great condition. 
Secondly he did take the time to discuss the animals I was buying, answered my questions adequately (not bad considering I only know around 3 words of german :whistling2: ) and gave me a good price.
Thirdly the two snakes I brought are active, bright eyed and were eating just 4 days after I got em home.
So all in all I'm very happy with my purchase and if it wasn't for what iv read on here I'd be happy to recommend him!!


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## AJ76

If I am honest (and I mean totally honest!) a lot of these threads start after shows due to one reason only and that is greed. This chap was selling a lot of desirable animlas at what I thought were great prices and loads of people brought from him as a result, and I was one of those people. I collected 1 Boiga Dendrophila which is doing great and is stunning.

I had a good look around his table and some stuff looked good and some not so good but that also went for a lot of tables that were being displayed.

I think that a lot of people are jumping on him because he is German which in its own right is not an issue at all.

If everyone saw what I saw and tried to converse with him as I did (which was difficult) then you all knew you were taking a risk in buying from him. This is just the same as all the other "after party" threads on here it comes down to that moment where you have magpie syndrome and forget about all the questions you have in your head as you are driving there.

You see something, you want it, you buy it it doesnt work or it dies etc and you think :censor:, why didnt I get his or her details or ask about its feeding habbits.

You have no-one to blame but yourselves and there is no use crying at the IHS as they cannot vet every animal on the table.


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## Austin Allegro

Don't know if anybody has mentioned that the IHS require all those selling animals to present their club membership cards when registering at the loading bay door before allowed into the building. i.e. as another piece of evidence to prove they are a bonafide hobbyist breeder. I seem to get the impression that these rules only apply to certain people?


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## colinm

I.H.S.= INTERNATIONAL herpetological society, therefore membership is open to people overseas as well as those in Britain.


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## Mujician

Austin Allegro said:


> Don't know if anybody has mentioned that the IHS require all those selling animals to present their club membership cards when registering at the loading bay door before allowed into the building. i.e. as another piece of evidence to prove they are a bonafide hobbyist breeder. I seem to get the impression that these rules only apply to certain people?


How does joining the IHS prove you are a hobbyist breeder? I'm sorry, but it doesn't! I have a friend who's in the IHS, yes he breeds his own personal stuff, but also owns a shop. This goes for many people! 

Not sure what you're trying to say with this.


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## Mujician

For those of you who don't speak german. A few things written on the tubs in question: Nager, this means rodents. Therefore the animal in question eats appropriately sized mice or rats.
WF: this stands for Wildfang, which means wild caught.
NZ: nachzuchten, which means captive bred.

Also the information on the sellers tubs was actually very informative. It states the habitat the animals come from as well as the country. From that info and the stuff I outlined above it should be really easy to work out everything you need to know. Even if you can't read a word of german there are plenty of translation websites.


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## Danul

Well an update on my pygmys I got from him on Sunday... Alll moving well and eating so I'm more then happy.. He spend a few min with me telling me and checking I knew wat to do and also gave me a great price..he did seem rushed off his feet but again with just him and lots of people buying from him I'm not surprised and again ty Connie and gang for a great day


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## Austin Allegro

Mujician said:


> How does joining the IHS prove you are a hobbyist breeder? I'm sorry, but it doesn't! I have a friend who's in the IHS, yes he breeds his own personal stuff, but also owns a shop. This goes for many people!
> 
> Not sure what you're trying to say with this.


 I does not prove you are a hobbyist it is just one element of the triangulation process to increase the likelihood that you are. Other elements are: you don't have a pet shop licence, you don't have a trade account, you aren't VAT registered as of the result of animal sales. If you are not any of theses then your probably a small time hobbyist. Of course probably is not a 100% guarantee.


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## penfold

Austin Allegro said:


> I does not prove you are a hobbyist it is just one element of the triangulation process to increase the likelihood that you are. Other elements are: you don't have a pet shop licence, you don't have a trade account, you aren't VAT registered as of the result of animal sales. If you are not any of theses then your probably a small time hobbyist. Of course probably is not a 100% guarantee.


 or not allowed to sell wild caught


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## Austin Allegro

penfold said:


> or not allowed to sell wild caught


Top of the list for that one on the basis that the ultimate mission of hobbyists and the clubs should be the promotion of captive breeding to mitigate the depletion of the wild population.


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## Mujician

I think you'll find the majority of the guys tubs had NZ written on. If not all of them.


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## Danul

Yea as far as I saw all if his animals had nz on them and when I asked him he said cabitve bred of course.... So Im sure all were cPtive bred


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## BenjaminBoaz

What exactly is NZ meaning?


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## Mujician

Read my previous post.


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