# Silver Fox Fur Tails?



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

I was absolutely horrified to see this!
How/why does this even happen?!?!

genuine SILVER FOX fur tail keyring,keychain! ! | eBay


----------



## snowdrop (Feb 5, 2011)

That's just horrible! 'fashion accessories' I'd love to skin her and see how she felt hanging of my keys! :bash::censor:


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

I feel exactly the same way! I knew there were the disgusting human beings that paid thousands for fur coats, but these things are readily available to anyone! Call me naive but I had no idea this was going on...


----------



## snowdrop (Feb 5, 2011)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> I feel exactly the same way! I knew there were the disgusting human beings that paid thousands for fur coats, but these things are readily available to anyone! Call me naive but I had no idea this was going on...


I don't think your naive, unless that makes two of us?!
What truly frightens me is the fact there a 5 minute drive away from me, an i had no idea this was going on!:bash:
I actually feel sick, I'm picking up my little red fox this weekend (fingers crossed) an i would never ever think of killing him, especially just to make a quick £10! I honestly don't know how they live with themselves! Poor innocent fox's!!


----------



## Elina (Jul 22, 2009)

They are around because fur farms do still exist as do places that make fur garments. 

In some ways I feel I should be glad they are using the tails and not throwing them away. Some fox fur farms even turn the actual foxes flesh and bones into dog food so they use near enough the whole animal. It is because of fur farms that I and many other fox owners know the dietary needs and such of our foxes but I can't help but dislike the whole idea.

Wearing fur is very much the 'norm' in places such as the Czech republic and Hungary, so much so that in the hotel I stayed at in Budapest there were fur coats on display in the revolving doors:









I don't think I will ever really like the idea because to me it would be like wearing my pet. 

-Elina


----------



## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

That's sad.
I honestly wouldn't be against the wearing of fur if it was 'farmed' ethically but unfortunately I have a feeling most, if not all farms keep them in cramped, bare enclosures while they wait for their deaths


----------



## snowdrop (Feb 5, 2011)

I can't understand fur farms, they make me feel sick everyone I look at my raccoon dog I think of all those poor pups in China being skinned alive, it makes my stomach churn! 

I just dislike the whole idea of fur farms in general I don't believe it should be happening but me just believing it isn't going to stop all the farms around the world sadly :bash:

That's disgusting! Do people not have a conscience seriously?! How can they not feel any remorse I will never know  everyone I look at ugg boots I have to turn away.


----------



## Junior13reptilez (Oct 17, 2010)

I personally see no problem if the animals are being captive bred, I mean it's no different to leather or feather down right? Providing the animal hasn't been caused to suffer and the animals are captive bred and kept well, of course. (I take note that they aren't kept properly on the whole but if they were there's nothing unethical about it, the background of the fur trade makes it all the worse, animals being skinned alive that are WC) There is also much less waste now then there used to be.


----------



## Rhianna.J (Nov 5, 2011)

Were silver foxes not originally produced in such a mass in Russia in the fur farms, and was it not the fur farms that learned how to domesticate them and turn them into the happy little pets we own now? Or am i thinking of another animal?

I always thought silver foxes were captured, transported to Russia to the farms (as black is a much more universal colour then red and brown when it comes to clothes), produced on a large scale, then some guy decided to domesticate them, found it was quite easily done, and then found another use for them?


----------



## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

snowdrop said:


> everyone I look at ugg boots I have to turn away.


May I ask why you dislike UGGs?
I know they use sheep skin but it's probably just a bi-product of the meat trade, I doubt they're farmed exclusively for their fur?


----------



## snowdrop (Feb 5, 2011)

Chris18 said:


> May I ask why you dislike UGGs?
> I know they use sheep skin but it's probably just a bi-product of the meat trade, I doubt they're farmed exclusively for their fur?


It was discovered that the Chinese skinned raccoon dogs alive to use there fur on fake ugg. I signed up to the campaign to stop this disgusting behaviour and was sent a link showing what I was campaigning to stop. It was someone that had gone into one of these farms and watched someone skin a pup alive and know every time I look at ugg boots fake or real it makes my stomach churn thinking about my Suki and all those poor innocent animals.


----------



## snowdrop (Feb 5, 2011)

This is just one of the sites exposing fur farms, disgusting  
A Shocking Look Inside Chinese Fur Farms | PETA.org


----------



## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

RFUK clearly has a sense of humor (the advert) :devil::devil::lol2:


----------



## snowdrop (Feb 5, 2011)

Chris18 said:


> image
> 
> RFUK clearly has a sense of humor (the advert) :devil::devil::lol2:


Who'd of thought it, rfuk has a humour?! :devil::lol2:


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Completely different to leather, leather is a by-product of the meat trade. In my honest opinion any animal product is disgusting, which is why I decided at 15 (last year) to become a vegan. There is no need to use animals as 'resources' because they are NOT resources thay are beatuiful creatures with as much right to live (or even more) than any human onthis planet.


----------



## Junior13reptilez (Oct 17, 2010)

Oh I agree mate, meat is a natural thing to eat but the way it's produced certainly isn't... I also see no need for the trade but understand people will be, well people... And I see your point about leather, I was wrong there but there's also bi products of this trade if done properly, which it isn't.


----------



## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> Completely different to leather, leather is a by-product of the meat trade. In my honest opinion any animal product is disgusting, which is why I decided at 15 (last year) to become a vegan. There is no need to use animals as 'resources' because they are NOT resources thay are beatuiful creatures with as much right to live (or even more) than any human onthis planet.


I completely disagree with you but your opinion is your own.
We're predator, and it's natural for us to eat animals (unfortunately most people don't hunt for themselves anymore and the super market has become a way of life). Animal welfare is always improving and to a very high standard in the UK (especially compared to other countries).
They are part of the food chain so are infact 'resources' to other animals and ourselves.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

We're not predators actually. Before I launch into this conversation/argument I need to know one thing, are you an Atheist?
And Junior, that is exactly right, my problem is not with eating animals products, it's the way it is done.


----------



## Junior13reptilez (Oct 17, 2010)

Chris18 said:


> I completely disagree with you but your opinion is your own.
> We're predator, and it's natural for us to eat animals (unfortunately most people don't hunt for themselves anymore and the super market has become a way of life). Animal welfare is always improving and to a very high standard in the UK (especially compared to other countries).
> They are part of the food chain so are infact 'resources' to other animals and ourselves.


People could eat meat freely and keep animals properly but it all comes down to money, supply, demand and space. At the end of the day the size of the population is the key reason for all of this. We know and so do the authorities, I'm 14 and can work it out, hardly rocket science but would the implementation cause riots and possibly wars. Anyway I'm getting off track and carried away  sorry cut out my sentence I was goin on about the implementation of a one child policy


----------



## Elina (Jul 22, 2009)

The whole animals being skinned alive is PETA propaganda. 

There is a whole discussion about it here: SYBIL'S MESSAGE BOARD - View topic - fur farming



> It's pretty darn suspicious considering:
> 
> 1. Skinning an animal alive is dangerous and difficult to the person doing it. The animal can fight and claw back, and killing it would make a lot more sense than risking getting bit and clawed.
> 
> ...


-Elina


----------



## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> We're not predators actually. Before I launch into this conversation/argument I need to know one thing, are you an Atheist?
> And Junior, that is exactly right, my problem is not with eating animals products, it's the way it is done.


I'm atheist, and we are predators, or atleast were...


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

THIS 100x! Funny how it takes a 14 year old and a 16 year old to see this...


----------



## Junior13reptilez (Oct 17, 2010)

We definitely were predators, now i don't know if I would class us as as a predator or not. When man used to hunt with spears etc it was controllable and every part of the animal was used. If people did that now everything would be gone! Also I wouldn't say we arguing but more just having a discussion.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Ok, I just don't have the strenght at the moment to discuss evolution with a religious person at the moment ;-)
We are not predators, if you truly consider yourself a carnivore/omnivore then the sight of roadkill should make your mouth water. Dogs are omnivores. Cats are carnivores. Humans,well, we SHOULD be omnivores with meat taking up like, less than 10% of our diet.Have you seen conditions they keep cows/chickens/pigs/turkey/ducks/lamb in and the way they slaughter them? How is that, in any way right?
We can survive perfectly well without meat, in fact, I for one am much more healthy since becoming a vegan. IT takes a lot for it to actually sink in, but the burgers and nuggets that you eat were once living creatures, that lived a life of fear and torture. Just try and put yourself in the shoes of the animals...


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Look at lions, they kill when and what they need. The animal they kill lead a healthy happy life and in the end served its purpose in the food chain. Keeping 20 feetless, debeaked chickens in a hamster cage and battering them to death - not really nature is it?


----------



## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> Ok, I just don't have the strenght at the moment to discuss evolution with a religious person at the moment ;-)
> We are not predators, if you truly consider yourself a carnivore/omnivore then the sight of roadkill should make your mouth water. Dogs are omnivores. Cats are carnivores. Humans,well, we SHOULD be omnivores with meat taking up like, less than 10% of our diet.Have you seen conditions they keep cows/chickens/pigs/turkey/ducks/lamb in and the way they slaughter them? How is that, in any way right?
> We can survive perfectly well without meat, in fact, I for one am much more healthy since becoming a vegan. IT takes a lot for it to actually sink in, but the burgers and nuggets that you eat were once living creatures, that lived a life of fear and torture. Just try and put yourself in the shoes of the animals...


You mention evolution which is helpful.
We were definitely predators... Eyes in the front of the head generally means predators as it gives extra perception of the world which means we're better at judging gaps etc.
I have seen how animals are kept, I study animal management and have visited some farms. Stuff like battery hens and cows kept in intensive systems is not nice but I have seen some really nice farms which the animals have healthy, long lives before going off to be slaughtered humanely (not stress free of course)
I often find myself wishing I could return to the ways of 'proper' humans, living off the land and only taking what is needed but unfortunately that's hardly possible and I've not been brought up that way. At the end of the day if I became a vegan would less animals die or would more just be wasted because it wasn't bought?


----------



## Junior13reptilez (Oct 17, 2010)

I'm an atheist and so is Chris so who is the religious person  I dont think anyone here agrees with the way meat is produced but accept that it is done.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

I was just relieved that there were no religious people here ready to talk about how volution is a lie and that god created us..blah,blah...
The meat trade will probably go on forever, and there is nothing I can do to stop it but I'm sure as hell not going to contribute to it. Being a vegan/vegetarian is something I do for myself as I can't be take part in the suffering of any animal and it is not doing a big difference, but I just can't fund the meat trade. Plus, meat isn't really all that ;-) Even meat eaters will have ethics towards where they will eat, for example, none of my friends will eat from KFC.


----------



## Junior13reptilez (Oct 17, 2010)

Chris18 said:


> You mention evolution which is helpful.
> We were definitely predators... Eyes in the front of the head generally means predators as it gives extra perception of the world which means we're better at judging gaps etc.
> I have seen how animals are kept, I study animal management and have visited some farms. Stuff like battery hens and cows kept in intensive systems is not nice but I have seen some really nice farms which the animals have healthy, long lives before going off to be slaughtered humanely (not stress free of course)
> I often find myself wishing I could return to the ways of 'proper' humans, living off the land and only taking what is needed but unfortunately that's hardly possible and I've not been brought up that way. At the end of the day if I became a vegan would less animals die or would more just be wasted because it wasn't bought?


It wouldn't be wasted as a lot of it is frozen, nearly all of it at a guess. I also disagree with medicine as I believe it stops evolution, rather a bold statement but none the less one I agree with, not saying I'm going to stop taking medicine though, but I wouldn't want to live off tablets and have a poor quality of life


----------



## Junior13reptilez (Oct 17, 2010)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> I was just relieved that there were no religious people here ready to talk about how volution is a lie and that god created us..blah,blah...
> The meat trade will probably go on forever, and there is nothing I can do to stop it but I'm sure as hell not going to contribute to it. Being a vegan/vegetarian is something I do for myself as I can't be take part in the suffering of any animal and it is not doing a big difference, but I just can't fund the meat trade. Plus, meat isn't really all that ;-) Even meat eaters will have ethics towards where they will eat, for example, none of my friends will eat from KFC.


Religious people constantly change their beliefs every time scientists disprove their theories, many Christians now believe god started evolution...


----------



## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> I was just relieved that there were no religious people here ready to talk about how volution is a lie and that god created us..blah,blah...
> The meat trade will probably go on forever, and there is nothing I can do to stop it but I'm sure as hell not going to contribute to it. Being a vegan/vegetarian is something I do for myself as I can't be take part in the suffering of any animal and it is not doing a big difference, but I just can't fund the meat trade. Plus, meat isn't really all that ;-) Even meat eaters will have ethics towards where they will eat, for example, none of my friends will eat from KFC.


I totally respect that. It takes a lot of restraint not to just go with the flow and just eat me because it tastes nice or is easy. I don't think people are monsters for eating it though, hopefully welfare will just keep improving and people start ethically sourcing more. I know when I get my own place and get a choice of what I'm eating I'm going to be eating local/organic/free range animal products. I would love my own small holding where I can take my own animals to slaughter as I will know they had a great life before being put back into the food chain : victory:


----------



## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Junior13reptilez said:


> It wouldn't be wasted as a lot of it is frozen, nearly all of it at a guess. I also disagree with medicine as I believe it stops evolution, rather a bold statement but none the less one I agree with, not saying I'm going to stop taking medicine though, but I wouldn't want to live off tablets and have a poor quality of life


To be honest my view on medicine/cures is rather quite backwards.
Cancer is horrible and I wouldn't wish it on anyone but if we cured everything then we'd end up dying from starvation because our population would be stupid.
I know that sounds horrible but only if you think of it on a personal level. My nan died of cancer and it's horrible but without it and other diseases the balance would be even more out.
Like in Africa, they have a lot of kids, some die from diseases etc but some go on to have children, that's how it's supposed to be yet we're saying they're under developed and should be more like us :bash:


----------



## Junior13reptilez (Oct 17, 2010)

Chris18 said:


> To be honest my view on medicine/cures is rather quite backwards.
> Cancer is horrible and I wouldn't wish it on anyone but if we cured everything then we'd end up dying from starvation because our population would be stupid.
> I know that sounds horrible but only if you think of it on a personal level. My nan died of cancer and it's horrible but without it and other diseases the balance would be even more out.
> Like in Africa, they have a lot of kids, some die from diseases etc but some go on to have children, that's how it's supposed to be yet we're saying they're under developed and should be more like us :bash:


Exactly my point, I wouldn't like anyone to suffer from such a disease but it's the natural way. Also our population already is stupid lol, what is it over the 7 billion mark and rising rapidly. I wonder if there will one day there be some sort of pathogen that will decrease the population by a lot.


----------



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> Ok, I just don't have the strenght at the moment to discuss evolution with a religious person at the moment ;-)
> We are not predators, if you truly consider yourself a carnivore/omnivore then the sight of roadkill should make your mouth water. Dogs are omnivores. Cats are carnivores. Humans,well, we SHOULD be omnivores with meat taking up like, less than 10% of our diet.Have you seen conditions they keep cows/chickens/pigs/turkey/ducks/lamb in and the way they slaughter them? How is that, in any way right?
> We can survive perfectly well without meat, in fact, I for one am much more healthy since becoming a vegan. IT takes a lot for it to actually sink in, but the burgers and nuggets that you eat were once living creatures, that lived a life of fear and torture. Just try and put yourself in the shoes of the animals...





wildlifewarrior123 said:


> Look at lions, they kill when and what they need. The animal they kill lead a healthy happy life and in the end served its purpose in the food chain. Keeping 20 feetless, debeaked chickens in a hamster cage and battering them to death - not really nature is it?




Gotta love the black and white world of the youthful. (I genuinely mean that as a compliment :2thumb



I have great respect for vegans and vegetarians - it seems to be a healthy lifestyle and I respect the willpower to really act on your convictions. Also, it leaves more meat for me!

A couple of points about us first - _**** sapiens_ are 100% omnivorous. Our monogastric digestive tract is much more similar to other omnivores (pigs, dogs) and even obligate carnivores (cats etc) than to herbivores (ruminants such as the ungulates or hind gut fermenters like rabbits). Our dental layout is completely omnivorous with molars for grinding, incisors and canines for slicing and stabbing.

Now, it is perfectly correct that humans _can_ survive without meat, but it certainly isn't a 'natural' diet for us.


I appreciate you are passionate in your views, and I agree with a number of your points, but it is important that you remember that not ALL animal production involves "living a life of fear and torture" or animals being "battered to death".

I am very much a happy, guilt free meat eater. I would (and have) happily kill my own meat (and by that, I don't mean that I get pleasure from 'the kill', but I do get pleasure from the fact that I know that rabbit/pheasant/partridge has been killed quickly and humanely and that they will be appreciated and respected for giving their life so I can eat. I don't often kill my own food, but I definitely source high welfare meat (British by preference) and also always aim to buy free range, high welfare dairy/egg products. I do however know that I can't completely avoid a few factory farmed products in processed foods.


I have much more respect for you as a vegan than I do for meat eaters that refuse to 'want to know' about where their meat came from. In my opinion, if you cant respect the meat on your plate enough to acknowledge and appreciate that it was once alive then you do not deserve to eat it. (My biggest pet hate is those people that say things like 'I eat fish, but I can't be dealing with it if it has its head on' etc)


Sorry...started rambling a bit here!

I guess the whole point is, what is your stance on high welfare, ethically sourced meat? I'm not saying that you'd be prepared to eat it, but do you consider there to be such a thing as a 'responsible meat eater'?


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Chris18 said:


> To be honest my view on medicine/cures is rather quite backwards.
> Cancer is horrible and I wouldn't wish it on anyone but if we cured everything then we'd end up dying from starvation because our population would be stupid.
> I know that sounds horrible but only if you think of it on a personal level. My nan died of cancer and it's horrible but without it and other diseases the balance would be even more out.
> Like in Africa, they have a lot of kids, some die from diseases etc but some go on to have children, that's how it's supposed to be yet we're saying they're under developed and should be more like us :bash:


I recently got crucified at school for having this very ratonal view. It seems people have a very utopian view and believe the world is rosy. Members of my family have passed away from cancer and while I cried when it happened, cancer is still a very neccesary thing and attempting to cure it is not a very wise thing. I also hate taking medicine as it pretty much makes your immune system lazy.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Would never go back to eating meat, myself 
Of course there are responsible meat eaters, the people that do enough research into where their produce comes from etc. and won't eat from fast food places and stuff like that. I used to be like like that until I realised that for me it wasn't enough 
The vegans that are constantly guilt tripping meat eaters give us a bad name.
Hunters and people that buy fur, those, I hate with a passion.


----------



## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> Hunters and people that buy fur, those, I hate with a passion.


I'm assuming when you say hunters you're referring to people who hunt for fun and not for the meat etc?
Ye, I don't see how you can get enjoyment of killing the biggest stag etc but have no problem with shooting an animal to provide food for families.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

The evil c---- that go to africa shooting elephants and giraffes and such. Shark fin soup is also one of the most horrible things on the fathe of the earth.


----------



## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

bothrops said:


> Gotta love the black and white world of the youthful. (I genuinely mean that as a compliment :2thumb
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think the worst thing is 'I'm a vegetarian but I eat fish'
............... :bash:


----------



## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

i agree with both sides 

i am a meat eater but only eat meat bought from local places and most are friends that breed the animals there selfs i also hatch and rear quails and happly kill off males for meat

i always wonder if we never ate or killed any animals what would happen to them all there not all going to walk about and be kept as pets are they

i also dont understand the vegan thing that they dont eat eggs since chickens lay eggs nearly all year even non hybrids even with out a male whats the big deal 

should we just chuck the eggs away instead of using them ???

and am talking about prue free range not caged birds


----------



## Junior13reptilez (Oct 17, 2010)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> The evil c---- that go to africa shooting elephants and giraffes and such. Shark fin soup is also one of the most horrible things on the fathe of the earth.


The worst is Chinese medicines, china is one of the most developed countries around f not the most and still people believe that they actually work. Of course I'm not saying that all chinese people believe in them but as far as I'm aware it's still a big market.


----------



## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

I'm a vegetarian but I eat fish, hehe

makes me pescetarian :whistling2:

I have no problem with responsibly caught fish, and I have no problem with fish that have heads. etc. 

I also have no problem with responsibly farmed or shot animals, I just don't wish to eat it. 

I don't like it when people think it's wrong to keep animals the way caged animals are etc. but buy the meat/eggs anyway because it's cheaper. If I couldn't afford meat that I thought was ethical I wouldn't eat it. Which I don't XD

On the original topic, why would anyone even want a key chain that big and fluffy and annoying? 
...and I don't agree with farming just for 'looks' when there is perfectly nice looking fake alternaives, and it's not like we need to wear fur to keep warm anymore.


----------



## George_Millett (Feb 26, 2009)

Junior13reptilez said:


> The worst is Chinese medicines, china is one of the most developed countries around f not the most and still people believe that they actually work. Of course I'm not saying that all chinese people believe in them but as far as I'm aware it's still a big market.


That would be because you have managed to make a massive generality about an incredibly large country with a diverse population. Yes whilst parts of China are very developed, Beijing, Shanghai and the other industrial cities there is still a massive are of land that is inhabited by people that aren't going to have the same exposure to Western Medicine that the industrial East have.


----------



## x Lindsay x (Jan 25, 2012)

I agree. It's not even my opinion that fur should not be used just because I oppose to animal cruelty/am a vegetarian/vegan.

I mainly disagree because I do not undertsand how people can defend it when it cannot be justified. Even if the welfare of these animals was totally acceptable we are living in the 21st Century not the stone age. Dunno how people can believe that the skin of those animals is ours to wear? particularly when you can wear some other material meaning it is not necessary.
The lack of animal protection in such countries upsets me for many reasons like fur farms, bile farms and the whole selling live animals in a sealed plastic pouch on a keychain or dolphin cove slaughter. Dunno about you's but it makes me feel ashamed of my species.


----------



## Junior13reptilez (Oct 17, 2010)

George_Milllett said:


> That would be because you have managed to make a massive generality about an incredibly large country with a diverse population. Yes whilst parts of China are very developed, Beijing, Shanghai and the other industrial cities there is still a massive are of land that is inhabited by people that aren't going to have the same exposure to Western Medicine that the industrial East have.


 Yes but that wasn't the point I was making, the authorities could ateast try and stop the importation of these items.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Because 'free range' eggs are a massive lie. They keep the hens in tiny cages and debeak and declaw them brutally so that they don't damage one of the other 20 chickens next to them. Plus, I don't feel I have to eat the unfertiliseegg of another species. Stuff like pancackes and waffles I see differently because the egg content isn't visible. It's all very psychological.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Back to the thread topic, where on earth are these fur farms? Can't anyone stop them?


----------



## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> Because 'free range' eggs are a massive lie. They keep the hens in tiny cages and debeak and declaw them brutally so that they don't damage one of the other 20 chickens next to them. Plus, I don't feel I have to eat the unfertiliseegg of another species. Stuff like pancackes and waffles I see differently because the egg content isn't visible. It's all very psychological.


no thats battery farms proper free range farms are completly diffrent you realy dont have a clue then your vegan but eat stuff with eggs in lol

as for your other question theres fur farms in most countrys even the uk still have a few am sure


----------



## Junior13reptilez (Oct 17, 2010)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> Because 'free range' eggs are a massive lie. They keep the hens in tiny cages and debeak and declaw them brutally so that they don't damage one of the other 20 chickens next to them. Plus, I don't feel I have to eat the unfertiliseegg of another species. Stuff like pancackes and waffles I see differently because the egg content isn't visible. It's all very psychological.


If you still eat produce from animals you aren't a vegan, chicken nuggets don't look like chicken but are still definitely chicken (although they are mainly other ingredients and like 3% meat :Na_Na_Na_Na. Also it seems very unlikely that the UK has fur farms seeing as Harrods is the only shop I know of that stocks it, he is right about free range farms, they really aren't all that they are believed to be, yes the quality of life is better but it certainly isn't good.


----------



## George_Millett (Feb 26, 2009)

Junior13reptilez said:


> Yes but that wasn't the point I was making, the authorities could ateast try and stop the importation of these items.


How? Or put less succinctly what bit of our inability to stop the arrival of illegal drugs (cocaine) into our country where we are an Island makes you believe that the Chinese will be any more successful in the prevention of the similar illegal goods or traditional medicines when they have a very large land border with several countries and some of the provinces have population densities of less than 20 people per square kilometer.

Not to mention a lot of the Chinese medicines are made internally so don't cross the border.

AS has been said both you and Wildlifewarrior123 are young and have yet to have your idealism battered but our ideals of animal welfare are not universal and it is incredibly hard to persuade someone who lives on the poverty line to make their lives worse.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Oh, I don't eat the waffles! I just get tempted to. I don't eat anything that is made with any animal product. I will however eat stuff like biscuits that have no animal products in them, but have a 'may contain milk' thingy, because biscuits with milk are made on the same factory line.


----------



## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

I used to buy my eggs from the egg man that used to call round but he didn't have enough custom to keep doing it. Very sad because he had a lovely local farm. Not enough people support local farms.

Worried now that my happy eggs might not be that 'happy' :gasp:

...was inevitable that one would find videos on that wasn't it


----------



## x Lindsay x (Jan 25, 2012)

In terms of eggs I agree 'free range' are not actualy free range when they are only free to roam in concrete paddocks. I get my eggs from a lady down the road who has lots of pet chickens which get to roam on a nice grassy field with a coop and she puts the eggs out for people to take for free or you can leave a donation. I'm sure there will be such people nearby the rest fo you if you wanted such eggs as more and more people are beginning to keep chickens. 

To those pointing out that someone is not not vegan because you are still eating something with an animal product in there is no way to be 100% vegan anyways to be fair.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

x Lindsay x said:


> In terms of eggs I agree 'free range' are not actualy free range when they are only free to roam in concrete paddocks. I get my eggs from a lady down the road who has lots of pet chickens which get to roam on a nice grassy field with a coop and she puts the eggs out for people to take for free or you can leave a donation. I'm sure there will be such people nearby the rest fo you if you wanted such eggs as more and more people are beginning to keep chickens.
> 
> To those pointing out that someone is not not vegan because you are still eating something with an animal product in there is no way to be 100% vegan anyways to be fair.


That is awesome way to keep chickens :2thumb: and it's the way that it should be done by everyone, but unfortunately all that most people care about is money. I peronally won't eat anything with any kind of animal product in it, incluiding honey but still wear suede boots as they were purchased before I went vegan and to not use them would be a waste.


----------



## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Sell them?


----------



## Rhianna.J (Nov 5, 2011)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> I peronally won't eat anything with any kind of animal product in it, incluiding honey but still wear suede boots as they were purchased before I went vegan and to not use them would be a waste.


Is that not kindof like saying, im against animal cruelty of any kind, but i wear leather boots as i bought them before i realised they were made from cows?


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

That's exactly what I'm saying.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

But I did know they were made of cows. I bought them before I was mature enough to realise eating meat and using animal products is wrong.


----------



## Funnyferret (Jun 21, 2012)

To an extent, maybe a lot us are guilty. But surely farming animals for food is'nt quite the same as farming for fashion. Mink and foxes are intelligent creatures, the thought of them being bred for their fur sickens me. I eat meat, but somehow i don't quite feel the same about that.


----------



## Rhianna.J (Nov 5, 2011)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> But I did know they were made of cows. I bought them before I was mature enough to realise eating meat and using animal products is wrong.


Eating meat and using animal products is not "wrong". Its natural! Humans are omnvivores, our dental records prove this. We have molars for gringing plant matter and canines for tearing meat. You dont use your canines for biting an apple, they are specifically designed for meat. The fact that you have chosen to be vegan is your chose, and some could argue "unnatural", but that doesnt say that people who do eat meat are doing something wrong. 

In another spin to this, if you are against using anything relating to animals, how do you feed your dog/cat/ferret/fox etc, when the majority of their dried food biscuits is made from animal products?


----------



## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

Just been reading through some old threads out of interest. 

One thing that strikes me about fur is the quality of the fakes you can now get. I can't see the point of wearing fur when the fakes are better, easier to look after, cheaper to make, the list goes on. I work in the craft trade in a family business, and I remember my mum teaching me when I was really little how to look for the weave to tell fur was fake. (And explaining we don't sell real fur, I think I was worried she'd been out killing tigers or something!! lol) With some of the posher fake furs now, you can hardly even tell they're fake! 

I've got a lovely fur coat, and I got called a "murderer" when I was out wearing it once. Was pretty funny trying to explain to the bloke that the only thing I've murdered is a bit of acrylic and nylon...


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Christie_ZXR said:


> Just been reading through some old threads out of interest.
> 
> One thing that strikes me about fur is the quality of the fakes you can now get. I can't see the point of wearing fur when the fakes are better, easier to look after, cheaper to make, the list goes on. I work in the craft trade in a family business, and I remember my mum teaching me when I was really little how to look for the weave to tell fur was fake. (And explaining we don't sell real fur, I think I was worried she'd been out killing tigers or something!! lol) With some of the posher fake furs now, you can hardly even tell they're fake!
> 
> I've got a lovely fur coat, and I got called a "murderer" when I was out wearing it once. Was pretty funny trying to explain to the bloke that the only thing I've murdered is a bit of acrylic and nylon...


Exactly! It is so unnecesary and fuelled by snobbery, selfishness and ignorance. It is an old-fashioned barbaric practice that deserves as much place in modern society as slavery.


----------



## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

I wear real fur tails, (I have 6 fox and one coyote tail), for a number of reasons;

1. as a taxidermy collector, I like to express my love of the subject by wearing animals parts

2. I feel it gives me a close spiritual connection to that animal

3. these tails are waste products from the fur industry. If people don't use them, they simply get thrown away, which is a waste, and IMO, disrespectful to the animal. 

There's a lot of misconceptions about the fur industry. It's not as bad as people make out.


----------



## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

Also, faux fur is incredibly bad for the environment. I would never use fuax because of it's environmental impact. Plus it doesn't come anywhere close to being as nice and warm as the real thing.

This links explain the problem with faux fur;

Should You Be Faking It?

Is fur biodegradable? Questions, answers and facts about fur


----------



## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Liquid- I'm no sure where I stand on this whole topic but I do know your posts are always very informative and well worded.
I'm sure I've said this to you before?


----------



## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

The environmental factors is something I took into consideration when I decided to buy leather boots over fake leather, plastics. They'll last a lot longer and won't need replacing, and when they are no longer any good they will degrade better than plasticy ones. It's also a bi-product of meat trade, which isn't going to end any time soon.

However fur for me is different, I don't feel the need to wear fake or real fur, and without the fur trade there'd be no 'bi-product' of tails... Animals crammed into 3ft crates is worse than cows in a field...


----------



## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

meh, dont see a problem with it, its a farmed product, like leather, meat, milk etc, and isn't the 'pet fox' gene pool based on babies that fur farms sold to people wanting an exotic pet? many fox farms still deal in both, culling both unsuitable or ex breeders or cubs that got too big to sell as pets.


----------



## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

em_40 said:


> However fur for me is different, I don't feel the need to wear fake or real fur, and without the fur trade there'd be no 'bi-product' of tails... Animals crammed into 3ft crates is worse than cows in a field...


Not all farms are like this. These are examples of good farms;

Fur Farming in Europe : The Truth - YouTube

Suurhäkki kaksinkertaistaa kettujen liikkumapinta-alan - YouTube

Certification of Finnish fur farms - turkistila sertifiointi - YouTube

The animals have space to move around, the cages are immaculately clean, and the animals have access to wooden next boxes, viewing platforms and things to play with/chew on. 

Keeping fur animals in poor conditions directly effects the quality of the fur. Even the slightest blemish can slash a pelts price by half or more, so farmers have to provide good welfare. This is why fur from countries like China, where conditions are very bad, is only used in trim or passed off as fake, it just has no quality and value compared to fur from high welfare countries. Of cause, even in countries with good welfare laws there will always be those that break them, but we shouldn't judge a whole industry by a few bad apples. 

When buying any animal products, it's important to only buy from countries with high welfare standards. I only buy from the US, Canada or Western Europe, as these places have strict laws to protect fur animals. 

Farming isn't the only source, either. Wild fur is a good alternative, (most of the animal parts I own are from wild animals.) Or you can buy vintage, (the only coat I have is a vintage ponyskin. I actually find fur coats rather ugly!) 

Most cows produced for meat/milk don't like happily in fields. They're crammed into filthy sheds. Also, the best quality leather isn't even a by-product, it comes from cows specifically bred for their leather!


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> the sight of roadkill should make your mouth water QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

naja-naja said:


> meh, dont see a problem with it, its a farmed product, like leather, meat, milk etc, and isn't the 'pet fox' gene pool based on babies that fur farms sold to people wanting an exotic pet? many fox farms still deal in both, culling both unsuitable or ex breeders or cubs that got too big to sell as pets.



Your profile picture is of Little Wayne, therefore your argument is invalid.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

I am sure if you were the animals you would feel differently LiquidOnyx. There is something called empathy, some people have it, others just don't careabout other living beings. No animal should be murdered for the pleasure of some idiot. I am glad to see that most of the people that have replied to this thread seem to be completely against it and that it is only the minority that have no respect for animal's lives.


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

i do not disagree with the use of fur, as long as the rest of the animal is also used for meat etc and the animal is kept and killed humanely

also the animal should not be theatened or endangered in the wild


----------



## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> I am sure if you were the animals you would feel differently LiquidOnyx. There is something called empathy, some people have it, others just don't careabout other living beings. No animal should be murdered for the pleasure of some idiot. I am glad to see that most of the people that have replied to this thread seem to be completely against it and that it is only the minority that have no respect for animal's lives.


Atleast some valid points were raised though. We should take environmental factors into consideration, and using up oil reserves for fashion is also, well... stupid

Some of the cages were bigger than others I've seen, I don't like that they are kept on a wire floor but atleast they are clean. I still don't like it, but it's admitedly not much worse than some pet fox breeders. I didn't see any viewing platforms or toys, I didn't have sound on if it was spoken about, or maybe I just didn't look carefully enough.


----------



## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> I am sure if you were the animals you would feel differently LiquidOnyx. There is something called empathy, some people have it, others just don't careabout other living beings. No animal should be murdered for the pleasure of some idiot. I am glad to see that most of the people that have replied to this thread seem to be completely against it and that it is only the minority that have no respect for animal's lives.


I have great respect for animals thank you. Animals are my life, but I also believe in using animals products as they are a natural, renewable resource. I believe it's more disrespectful NOT to use an animals parts after death.

Just because someone is pro fur does not mean they are an idiot who doesn't care about animals. I know a wide circle of people who are taxidermy and fur enthusiasts, and all of them are massive animal lovers who have done a lot of research on the subject and are very careful about where they purchase parts from. Many of these people also donate large sums of money to conservation and animal welfare charities from the money they make selling fox tails and pelts.


----------



## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

I can see there are still problems with the way fake furs are made, but even so, I'd prefer them to real fur! It makes financial sense to sort those problems out, so I'm sure someone will come up with a solution eventually.

Incidentally, knitting wool made from acrylics has always been cheaper than sheeps wool, (and so more common) but that's starting to change now too. Manufacturers are starting to move away from acrylics and onto wools because of the price of oil. Which I think is quite nice  I've chatted to one of the factories about where the wool they use comes from, and it all sounds pretty good. You don't have to shoot a sheep to use it's wool!


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Christie_ZXR said:


> I can see there are still problems with the way fake furs are made, but even so, I'd prefer them to real fur! It makes financial sense to sort those problems out, so I'm sure someone will come up with a solution eventually.
> 
> Incidentally, knitting wool made from acrylics has always been cheaper than sheeps wool, (and so more common) but that's starting to change now too. Manufacturers are starting to move away from acrylics and onto wools because of the price of oil. Which I think is quite nice  I've chatted to one of the factories about where the wool they use comes from, and it all sounds pretty good. You don't have to shoot a sheep to use it's wool!


I've seen a few pictures showing baby sheep that have had all the skin around the anus removed, but I do not know the ins and outs. It frankly looked disgusting.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

So you respect these animals, but you still contribute to their abuse, deprivation of freedom and brutal death? Wow...


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> I've seen a few pictures showing baby sheep that have had all the skin around the anus removed, but I do not know the ins and outs. It frankly looked disgusting.


how did you end up at those pics?:crazy::gasp::Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

It was posted by PETA or WSPA and it came up on facebook. I believe it was Uniqlo that was doing it.


----------



## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> So you respect these animals, but you still contribute to their abuse, deprivation of freedom and brutal death? Wow...


No, I don't contribute to those things because, like I said before, I'm very careful about where I buy parts from to make sure the animals were not abused. Most of the parts I buy come from wild animals. The few I own from farmed ones are either vintage or off-cuts from high-welfare countries.

Animals on good fur farms are not abused. As well as strict welfare laws, farms receive regular inspections, and there are many initiatives in places to make sure high welfare standards are maintained. Death is usually painless, by methods such as gas or lethal injection. The more primitive methods, such as electrocution, have been phased out on many farms. Even those that still them have to, by law, render the animal unconscious first. Don't believe the rubbish fed by animal rights extremists. Using animals parts does not automatically equal abuse. 

Also remember these are not wild animals. They've been bred for 80 generations or more in captivity, and have no concept of freedom. Even if they were given freedom, they'd simply die as they are too far removed from their wild counterparts to survive on their own.


----------



## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> It was posted by PETA or WSPA and it came up on facebook. I believe it was Uniqlo that was doing it.


You can't believe anything from PETA. Most of the images/footage they use are either very out of date, staged or faked.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Please don't be ignorant, they still have the natural instinct to be wild. If I let my snake free in any country where it had the suitable temperature, it would be perfectly fine. I do not believe the 'rubbish fed by animal rights extremists'. I believe what is right and what is wrong. You shouldn't believe the rubbish you are fed by animal hating sadist terrorists trying to defend their sickening pratice. Have you by any chance visited these farms you buy your fur from?


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

I will believe what I want thank you.


----------



## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> Please don't be ignorant, they still have the natural instinct to be wild. If I let my snake free in any country where it had the suitable temperature, it would be perfectly fine. I do not believe the 'rubbish fed by animal rights extremists'. I believe what is right and what is wrong. You shouldn't believe the rubbish you are fed by animal hating sadist terrorists trying to defend their sickening pratice. Have you by any chance visited these farms you buy your fur from?


Lol, I haven't ever known anyone who is an animal hater. All the pro fur people I know who work with animal parts are massive animal lovers, conservationists, spiritualists and eco-warriors. Hardly animal hating sadists!

Right and wrong is subjective. I believe it's wrong to not use animal parts. That's my personal belief that comes from years of studying the industry and reading scientific studies conducted on farms (I actually started off very anti fur.) While I much prefer fur and parts from wild animals, I have nothing against good farms. 

Sadly I haven't gotten to visit a far, yet, but hopefully I can someday!


----------



## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> I will believe what I want thank you.


You do know that PETA have been convicted in court countless times of faking their footage? Why believe a group have proved themselves time and again to be liers?


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Because at least they are not hypocrites, claiming to 'love' animals and then slaughter them for personal 'pleasure'.


----------



## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> Because at least they are not hypocrites, claiming to 'love' animals and then slaughter them for personal 'pleasure'.


PETA regularly stage videos where they pay people to perform horrific acts of cruelty on camera. They then distribute this footage as a way to pry money out of well-meaning individuals. Then of cause there's: Peta Kills Animals

I don't slaughter animals for pleasure. I would MUCH rather see an animal alive, (why else would I keep lots of pets and spend most of my time wildlife watching?) If I could bring the animals from the parts back to life I would. But death is perminant, and once something is dead it's simply a waste not to use them. I believe I am honoring the animal by making use of what they no longer can. This is my personal and spiritual belief. I do NOT do it for personal pleasure or anything ridiculous like that.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Seen that website many times. Seems like it was made by a ******* in his basement. By using the animal's parts all you are doing is funding the people that decided to put an end to its life. I doubt I am going to change your mind, but just try and have a serious think about it.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

If you were using parts of an animal killed by natural causes, then fair enough, but these people conciously keep these animals in metal cages their whole lives just for them to die in vain. I am sorry but an animal lover does NOT do that to an animal.


----------



## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> Seen that website many times. Seems like it was made by a ******* in his basement. By using the animal's parts all you are doing is funding the people that decided to put an end to its life. I doubt I am going to change your mind, but just try and have a serious think about it.


I have. Like I said, I've spent the last decade researching and deciding where I stand on the matter. I am 100% confident that what I believe in is right. I am pro-animal welfare, and do not condone animal cruelty in any way, shape or form. I am very careful about where I get items from, and believe I am honoring both the animal and nature for the gifts she has given, and am thankful for every animal I use.


----------



## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

To be frank, if I were an undecided individual reading this I would find onyx's argument much more compelling as at present wildlife warrior all you have been is abusive and closed minded.
You are also a tad hypocritical yourself don't you think?


----------



## snowdrop (Feb 5, 2011)

I can see where this is going :bash:

I will never personally be okay with fur farms an that is my opinion other people may agree, other people may disagree this is the world we live in, not everyone should agree on everything as it leads to conversations exploring both sides which may/may not sway people on there opinion.
I do however believe that taxidermy is a beautiful thing, this really does express the beauty of the animal (when done right) and is a work of art.


----------



## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

snowdrop said:


> I can see where this is going :bash:
> 
> I will never personally be okay with fur farms an that is my opinion other people may agree, other people may disagree this is the world we live in, not everyone should agree on everything as it leads to conversations exploring both sides which may/may not sway people on there opinion.
> I do however believe that taxidermy is a beautiful thing, this really does express the beauty of the animal (when done right) and is a work of art.


I have no problem with people being against the concept of fur farms. Even I'm a bit iffy on the idea of raising animals solely for their fur, (which is why I prefer wild fur.) I just wish people would understand that fur farms aren't always as bad as people make them out to be, and that using and wearing fur does not automatically make someone an 'animal hating sadist.'


----------



## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

Right, I'll try and be clear and concise here, but after having read through 10 pages of waffle, i'm a little wound up.



snowdrop said:


> This is just one of the sites exposing fur farms, disgusting
> A Shocking Look Inside Chinese Fur Farms | PETA.org


First, this video has been proven to have been created by PETA. They paid the farmers to skin the animal alive and apparently, if you can understand the language, people are screaming in horror, yet someone in the background is offering more money to make it more brutal.
Was the farmer right to do it, no, but he was looking to feed his family for another week. When needs must, people will do anything.


Now on to wildlifewarrior123.

You are a Vegan, good for you, that is your choice but to pick a few things;



wildlifewarrior123 said:


> *The vegans that are constantly guilt tripping meat eaters give us a bad name.[*QUOTE]
> 
> Ok, this establishes that you have a live and let live attitude. People eat meat and that is there choice. you choose not to.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

See I like the 'I still wear suede boots cause I bought them before I went vegan and to not wear them is a waste' line because it's the most hypocritical bit of all!
You could easily sell them on eBay or give them to someone more needy than you! 
Secondly you have the barefaced cheek to insult onyx about her using the 'wastage' from wild killed animals yet you state not keeping your suede boots is a waste!?

Your arguments have not moved on from childish statements such as 'it's cruel' or ' the poor little fuzzy animals'

I know nothing about fur farming or taxidermy or the impact of fake fur etc but I do l know your arguments are I'll thought out, child like and that you have resorted to nasty remarks cause you are loosing the argument.


----------



## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

To be fair, it's difficult to believe that the PETA are liars when you have seen the videos of cruelty, you're heartbroken by what you see and will do anything to make it stop... I believed the fur farming videos from the PETA when I first saw them, and would still be VERY wary of buying any animal products from somewhere like China!! However, if I learnt anything from this APA trying to get reptiles banned is that animal rights groups will do and say ANYTHING, to make you feel that way (so heartbroken you support them and hand over a load of money)

I still would never buy real fur, but one can atleast respect someone who chooses to, that buys responsibly from places of 'good' animal regulations, just as I respect meat eaters who buy free-range and british meat and eggs etc.


----------



## Junior13reptilez (Oct 17, 2010)

LiquidOnyx said:


> I have no problem with people being against the concept of fur farms. Even I'm a bit iffy on the idea of raising animals solely for their fur, (which is why I prefer wild fur.) I just wish people would understand that fur farms aren't always as bad as people make them out to be, and that using and wearing fur does not automatically make someone an 'animal hating sadist.'


So you prefer often endangered animals being killed for their fur rather than farmed animals bred specifically for fur. Also PETA are probably the biggest hypocrites out there...


----------



## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

Junior13reptilez said:


> So you prefer often endangered animals being killed for their fur rather than farmed animals bred specifically for fur. Also PETA are probably the biggest hypocrites out there...


When the heck did I ever mention endangered animals? I'm talking about over-populated and problem species, such as foxes, coyotes, rabbits etc.


----------



## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

Which endangered animals are often hunted for their fur?

Fox, Coyote, Gray Wolf, Raccoon dog, are all 'Least concern'

Edit: I sound naiive... I know some animals like tigers are sometimes killed for their fur, but I'm sure no one here supports _that._


----------



## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

em_40 said:


> Which endangered animals are often hunted for their fur?
> 
> Fox, Coyote, Gray Wolf, Raccoon dog, are all 'Least concern'
> 
> Edit: I sound naiive... I know some animals like tigers are sometimes killed for their fur, but I'm sure no one here supports _that._


No endangered animals can legally be killed for fur. Poaching is not comparable to the legal hunting of common species.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Rach1 said:


> See I like the 'I still wear suede boots cause I bought them before I went vegan and to not wear them is a waste' line because it's the most hypocritical bit of all!
> You could easily sell them on eBay or give them to someone more needy than you!
> Secondly you have the barefaced cheek to insult onyx about her using the 'wastage' from wild killed animals yet you state not keeping your suede boots is a waste!?
> 
> ...


In my opinion all living life forms are eual, if you would willingly stand up for a pedophile or a serial killer then at least you are consistan but if not it is YOU that is the hypocrite. I am not losing any arguments, the 'nasty remarks' you are talking about come from extreme frustration at the fact people can actually agree with this stuff. I belive I mentioned slavery before, I am sure if that were still legal there would be many people that would still agree with it. If you would like to buy my tattered ripped up timberland boots the please do so : victory:


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Tarron said:


> Right, I'll try and be clear and concise here, but after having read through 10 pages of waffle, i'm a little wound up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Rach1 said:


> See I like the 'I still wear suede boots cause I bought them before I went vegan and to not wear them is a waste' line because it's the most hypocritical bit of all!
> You could easily sell them on eBay or give them to someone more needy than you!
> Secondly you have the barefaced cheek to insult onyx about her using the 'wastage' from wild killed animals yet you state not keeping your suede boots is a waste!?
> 
> ...


And yes, I do think it's cruel. This is because I have a concience. Problem?


----------



## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

How dare you even compare the likes if what taxidermists/furriers etcdo to the actions of child molesters etc.
How dare you!
I work with young children and have dealt with child whom have been abused and neglected.
To compare the two is vile and shows how childish and silly you are.

You are, a sad and pathetic young individual on a personal and insular campaign.
You need to wake up pal, words cannot describe how sickened I am by that post and how cross I am.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

How wonderfully hypocritical!


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

You are, a sad and pathetic young individual on a personal and insular campaign.
You need to wake up pal, words cannot describe how sickened I am by that post and how cross I am.[/QUOTE]

These were my exact thoughts on your previous posts.


----------



## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Yawn yawn yawn.

I won't be responding to you anymore- you're clearly trolling and have nothing better to do with your time.
I however have:- that's looking after my children, my pets and listening to people with more worthwhile things to say.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Yeah, I did say the exact same thing a few posts back. I have nothing more to say to a juvenile self righteous hypocrite.


----------



## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> In my opinion all living life forms are eual, if you would willingly stand up for a pedophile or a serial killer then at least you are consistan but if not it is YOU that is the hypocrite. I am not losing any arguments, the 'nasty remarks' you are talking about come from extreme frustration at the fact people can actually agree with this stuff. I belive I mentioned slavery before, I am sure if that were still legal there would be many people that would still agree with it. If you would like to buy my tattered ripped up timberland boots the please do so : victory:


All living forms are equal... so it is you who should stand up for peodophiles and seriel killers? They are living...
(That was my thought reading this post, I didn't even understand it)



Rach1 said:


> How dare you even compare the likes if what taxidermists/furriers etcdo to the actions of child molesters etc.
> How dare you!
> I work with young children and have dealt with child whom have been abused and neglected.
> To compare the two is vile and shows how childish and silly you are.
> ...


Thanks for pointing out they were being compared to taxidermists :lol2:

How stupid! 


You seen that film where people are farmed to donate their organs..? reminds me of that XD


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

em_40 said:


> All living forms are equal... so it is you who should stand up for peodophiles and seriel killers? They are living...
> (That was my thought reading this post, I didn't even understand it)
> 
> 
> ...


Where did I compare pedeophiles to taxidermists?
If someone has a dead animal that has died of natural causes, there is nothing wrong with that. 
I was comparing the act of looking for, stalking and finally harming an innocent defenseless creature, or paying for it to be done for you. < This is just as appropriate for hunters and people that wear fur as it is for pedophiles.


----------



## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

No it isn't, because hunters don't capture and then molest the animal, they kill it quickly... Hence I get the seriel killer analogy, but it doesn't even compare to child molestation.

It is only because we have such an advanced brain, and grieve etc. and we have everything handed to us on a plate that we think killing people is wrong. If we were a very primitive, tribe that had to hunt to eat, we would not think twice about killing a competing tribes person that was hunting on our land.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

em_40 said:


> No it isn't, because hunters don't capture and then molest the animal, they kill it quickly... Hence I get the seriel killer analogy, but it doesn't even compare to child molestation.
> 
> It is only because we have such an advanced brain, and grieve etc. and we have everything handed to us on a plate that we think killing people is wrong. If we were a very primitive, tribe that had to hunt to eat, we would not think twice about killing a competing tribes person that was hunting on our land.


I do get what you are saying, but have you seen what the hunters do?
I have personally witnessed hunters bludgeon animals they had caught in traps to death with rocks. Also, farms keeping the animals locked up and abusing them, that goes hand in hand with the pedophile analogy. I do respect your points though...


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

I just don't understand why people cannot show the same level of empathy toards animals.


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

people are animals, therefore if it is right for a lion to kill a gazelle, it is alright for humans to kill animals

it is due to our empathy that most(NOT ALL) are killed humanely, and we don't have to chase them down and bite through thier neck, this would clearly be stressful for the creature( i use the word creature to further stress that humans are animals)


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Ok, but if you are going to compare a human to a Lion, can we compare a human to a piranha? If so, why do we not attack and eat our own kind?


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> Ok, but if you are going to compare a human to a Lion, can we compare a human to a piranha? If so, why do we not attack and eat our own kind?


 
we can compare to a piranha, although it is an inaccurate comparison due to the fact that most of us:crazy: have evolved to have feelings of empathy to fellow human beings, but less so to animals

also it is not socially acceptable to eat people:lol2:

but on a serious note what is worth more a human life or that of an animal?


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

In my honest opinion, and I don't like admitting this; the life of a human.
If an animal, unprovoked, attacked a person then I would agree that it would be right to kill the animal in self defense. Also, if there is nothing else to eat then yeah, eat an animal.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

By the way, thank you for actually being a rational person.


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

i personally think that veggies and vegans are wrong due to the fact if everyone was a veggie meat form cows/meat animals is wasted for instance when there was a big anti veal campaign young male calfs were shot and either wasted or the ocasional one was fed to big cats at zoos/wildlife parks most were killed for no purpose


----------



## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> I do get what you are saying, but have you seen what the hunters do?
> I have personally witnessed hunters bludgeon animals they had caught in traps to death with rocks. Also, farms keeping the animals locked up and abusing them, that goes hand in hand with the pedophile analogy. I do respect your points though...


Yes I have, and I believe inhumane trapping to be 'wrong', and clubbing animals too. But hunting with a gun, quick death, though I don't eat meat or wear fur... I still get why others do it, and respect that it is done quickly and with little/no stress to the animals.



wildlifewarrior123 said:


> Ok, but if you are going to compare a human to a Lion, can we compare a human to a piranha? If so, why do we not attack and eat our own kind?


Because we like to think we are above all that, that and the family of the person you have killed is grieving, the person you've killed doesn't care. Like I said already some people still do kill other humans and they don't think it's wrong, they think it's neccessary... 



wildlifewarrior123 said:


> In my honest opinion, and I don't like admitting this; the life of a human.
> If an animal, unprovoked, attacked a person then I would agree that it would be right to kill the animal in self defense. Also, if there is nothing else to eat then yeah, eat an animal.


Just as if a person attacked me unprovoked with the intention of killing me it would be my right to kill them (in self defence)


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

If everyone was a veggie/vegan there would need to be no cows living in farms for any other reason than pet food and milk. The amount of crops used to feed the cows could be used to feed starving people, methane's effect on the earth's atmosphere is another reason to go veggie... It's all very idealistic and unlikely though.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

em_40 said:


> Yes I have, and I believe inhumane trapping to be 'wrong', and clubbing animals too. But hunting with a gun, quick death, though I don't eat meat or wear fur... I still get why others do it, and respect that it is done quickly and with little/no stress to the animals.
> 
> 
> Because we like to think we are above all that, that and the family of the person you have killed is grieving, the person you've killed doesn't care. Like I said already some people still do kill other humans and they don't think it's wrong, they think it's neccessary...
> ...


I pretty much agree with everyhing you said there other than the fur thing. I get why people eat meat, but with all the readily available, cheaper and equally comfortable options available I see no excuse for wearing fur.


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

As a hunter I'm going to jump in here, you seem to be grouping every hunter with a few bad ones, it would be like me saying all veggies and Vegans and Tree hugging hippies not living in the real world......

The main part of hunting is to keep animals to a manageable number, take rabbits if we didn't cull the number of rabbits you wouldn't have any crops to eat and you would have a very poor diet, as an example. I have been asked to go control the rabbit population on a farm were the rabbits have destroyed over 60 acres of crops, they have tried rabbit proof fence to no success. I offer a quick death and all rabbits are used, be it for snake food, dog food and for feeding ourselves.

before you say nature controls the number rubbish, if it did I wouldn't have to go out shooting,

alot what you read about hunting is very out of date and not the same as hunting today, but the anti sites keep the old pictures going as its better than admitting its not the same as 50-60 years ago..

we are not out there to kill all the animals you will find most hunters have a great knowledge about wildlife as we spend all our time in the countryside watching it! 

and alot of our British wildlife relies on shoots as they feed in the cover crops and we plant hedges and keep the countryside in condition.

back on to topic of fur I will wear fur but Vintage fur the animal is dead I think it is more disrespectful to destroy a vintage fur than it is to wear it, I have fox tails but they are red foxes I have culled, I also take the pelt and send it to a friend who makes hats from them, nothing of the animal is left I even have a person that uses the bones, 

If an animal is going to die every part of it should be used.


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

if everyone was veggie and i do hate to ruin your idealistic world but the cows would not die peacefully of old age there would be a mass slaughter in which the animals would be subject to inhumane conditions and killed inhumanely in order to meet mass demand

the crops would not go to starving people thay would be used to meet the larger crop demands of a veggie nation

the way to solve the cows effecting the atmosphere is to include garlic in thier diet but farmers cannot afford/do not want to pay for this

yes,it is very unlikely

also fur should be used if the rest of the animal is also used


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

bosshhogg I do agree that if the rabbit is being 100% recycled then it is fair enough.
foxes, though? It is NOT neccesary to kill them. Nothing anyone will ever say will change my opinion on this. I have to ask though, wouldn't you want the foxes alive to help you out with culling the rabbits?


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

I recently also saw a programme on television that showed a hunter sliding a small mustelid into a rabbit hole, the hunter grabbed the rabbit by the head and violently shook it to death. I take it your methods are slightly less...horrific?


----------



## Miichu (May 22, 2012)

it just breaks my heart to see that


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> bosshhogg I do agree that if the rabbit is being 100% recycled then it is fair enough.
> foxes, though? It is NOT neccesary to kill them. Nothing anyone will ever say will change my opinion on this. I have to ask though, wouldn't you want the foxes alive to help you out with culling the rabbits?


foxes do not kill enough rabbits to control the number, foxes do need to be controlled or you end up with over population and disease, just look at city foxes packed in they are in terrible shape! 

you say that cows should be kept just for milking, to milk the cow has to be pregnant, what are you going to do with all the bulls born?


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

I don't think the cows should be kept for milking, I am a vegan, what would I do with the milk from another species?


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

as i said young male calfs are shot and wasted when there is no use for them 

in a world were cows have no use the species would probably be erradicated or atleast in danger of it


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Yup...


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

so by being vegan do you admit supporting genicide of cows


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

why would I support the genocide of cows?


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

I don't have anything to do with that industry. I am against the genocide of cows, which is why I do not fund/support those that practice it, silly.


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

YOGI BEAR said:


> in a world were cows have no use the species would probably be erradicated or atleast in danger of it


because you are a vegan and in so give a cow no use

who funds the genocide(erradiction of every single) cow


----------



## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

What do you add to your tea? do you drink it black? All alternative milks taste horrible to me!

Also if you killed less foxes they'd eat more rabbits... I trust that countryside people know how to keep everything in balance though, after all we killed off everything else that could keep fox numbers under control. Aslong as it's done humanely, I don't agree with dogs killing foxes, and dogs being completely out of control and killing anything it comes across....


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

killing foxes means they don't have to move into the city, the ones in the city eat rubbish not rabbits so it makes little or no difference to the amount of rabbits eaten


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

I drink Sunrise soya milk. Almond milk I like too. I went through a hazelnut milk phase but I think I overdid it and now I can't stand to even look at the carton...


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

and because you drink sunrise soya milk you support the genocide of cows


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Alprosoy is also pretty good, em_40


----------



## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

YOGI BEAR said:


> killing foxes means they don't have to move into the city, the ones in the city eat rubbish not rabbits so it makes little or no difference to the amount of rabbits eaten


I don't think foxes do have to move into the city, as has already been said there are plenty of rabbits, they move into the city because we are dirty, wasteful, and expanding into their territories, and eating out of a rubbish bin is easier, and the smell oh so tempting, nom nom


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

so you think they should go to waste and no one should eat them and that a whole species should be wiped out because there is ocasionally one that is mistreated 

vegans are clearly imbalanced people

aren't you even tempted by a nice bacon roll












foxes are culled due to a lack of territory, but yes alot enter cities because we are slobs


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Correct. We are encroaching into THEIR territory, not the other way round.


----------



## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

I don't know anyone that eats foxes. Or do you mean pigs? or cows?


When I went vegetarian (I was raised a meat-eater) everyone, absolutely EVERYONE said 'but what about bacon sarnies'... Bacon is GROSS!!!!!! It is soooo full of salt!! It's disgusting, I really don't know why ANYONE eats that rubbish!!! It's worse than mc Donalds burger


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Is there a particular reason YOGI BEAR is trolling?
They actually seemed alright...


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

i agree completely, although i mean't due to too many foxes in one area


what about a meat feast pizza?











i never said anything about eating foxes

mcdonalds is horrible 

and btw i am jjust trying to put you against your cow genocide ways


----------



## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

processed foods are bad!! yuk yuk 

Also I've only just seen what you said about the soy milk, I tried several soy milks and didn't like any, plus it says you can't add it to hot water so useless in tea... might try a nut milk in my ceriel some time though.


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

:surrender:sorry for angering you i was just trying to wind you up a bit no hurt intent


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Not really angry, just a bit annoyed as there was actually a decent conversation 
In response to the food questions, I do not really get hungry around meat as I just don't see it as food anymore... As I said before though, walking down the street on a cold winter's day with friends and smelling a belgian waffle stall does make my belly rumble...


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

em_40 said:


> processed foods are bad!! yuk yuk
> 
> Also I've only just seen what you said about the soy milk, I tried several soy milks and didn't like any, plus it says you can't add it to hot water so useless in tea... might try a nut milk in my ceriel some time though.


Sunrise has a special milk that doesn't 'split' when heated!!
Perfect for teas and hot chocolates...


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

you can't eat waffles?:gasp::gasp::gasp:


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

They are made with egg and milk. I can make vegan ones at home though...
Even my vegetarian/meat eating friends say they're as good as the originals :-D


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

what made you become vegan?


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

I was thinking about it for a week or so and by complete chance I stumblede across a vegan shop right near where I was meant to meet my friend to go to a concert. I went in, got some stuff to eat and never looked back since then...


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

don't suppose my cow argument could change your mind?

mind you that did not work on my cousin,the bacon roll did though:lol2:


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Nope, sorry ;-)
You should check out veganism, the health benefits alone are excellent!


----------



## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

I assume thef child like tantrums was because you couldn't comprehend the facts I gave you, so decided to kick your legs like my 2 year old at bedtime?

I won't be replying to you after this post, clearly you don't even know yourself where you stand on issues as you keep back tracking amd flipping your mind. The one thing I do want to say is;

Hypothetical, tomorrow the whole planet becomes vegans. What happens to all the livestock that has become useless to us? We just let them roam, as 'genocide' would be wrong. So now we have literally billions of large animals (cows, sheep, pigs, etc) roaming the brotish countryside. There are no natural predators left, so them numbers increase exponentially. So where has going vegan reduced methane emisstions?

Also, wolves are both predators and omnivores so that argument means jack.


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> bosshhogg I do agree that if the rabbit is being 100% recycled then it is fair enough.
> foxes, though? It is NOT neccesary to kill them. Nothing anyone will ever say will change my opinion on this. I have to ask though, wouldn't you want the foxes alive to help you out with culling the rabbits?


Foxes don't just eat rabbits, for foxes to control rabbits there would have to eat just rabbits, foxes prefer an easy meal what normally means the chicken and ducks, and yes Foxes do need controlling especially around lambing


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

Also, wolves are both predators and omnivores so that argument means jack.[/QUOTE]

It is possible to be both, but they are not synonymous. Fail for you.


----------



## wildlifewarrior123 (Jan 14, 2012)

bosshogg said:


> Foxes don't just eat rabbits, for foxes to control rabbits there would have to eat just rabbits, foxes prefer an easy meal what normally means the chicken and ducks, and yes Foxes do need controlling especially around lambing


Foxes do NOT need controlling, selfish farmers WANT them to be controlled.


----------



## YOGI BEAR (Jun 3, 2012)

city foxes need contolled much like seagulls should be

sorry bacon rolls won me over before i even considered it oh and my cow arguement


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> Foxes do NOT need controlling, selfish farmers WANT them to be controlled.


so why do foxes not need controlling I take it you have reserach to back this up? have grown up on farms? have been active within the country side for 30 years?

foxes need controlling as they have nothing else to keep the numbers in check, and if they were allowed to get out of control it would affect ground nesting birds, small mammals, larger mammals and also would affect the health of the foxes and cases of manage and other health problems would increase


----------



## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> Also, wolves are both predators and omnivores so that argument means jack.


It is possible to be both, but they are not synonymous. Fail for you.[/QUOTE]

I don't get this whole predator/ omnivore argument... what are you even arguing?

We _were_ hunter/gatherers, we evolved into farmers, and occasional hunters, then we domesticated livestock and started to trade etc.

HUNTER-GATHERERS TO FARMERS


----------



## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> I do get what you are saying, but have you seen what the hunters do?
> I have personally witnessed hunters bludgeon animals they had caught in traps to death with rocks. Also, farms keeping the animals locked up and abusing them, that goes hand in hand with the pedophile analogy. I do respect your points though...


I'm a hunter. I shoot my quary with a high velocity rifle firing expanding ammunition which is designed to kill. This kind of ammunition is even banned under the Geneva convention for use by the military as it is so lethal. Which is ideal for a quick kill! I've never 'bludgeoned' anything. I have however watched the animals I've killed die very quickly and humanely before they go into the human food chain. 

When hunting, I know how my sense change. I become more alert and aware of my surroundings. So I know I'm a natural born predator. And no vegan will ever convince me otherwise.


----------



## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> I was thinking about it for a week or so and by complete chance I stumblede across a vegan shop right near where I was meant to meet my friend to go to a concert. I went in, got some stuff to eat and never looked back since then...


You do realise that you are no more ethical than any meat eater don't you?

You own a pet Boa constrictor. You own it for your own selfish reasons as you want to keep a pet. You have no need for a pet.

Your Boa eats other animals. Other animals have to be bred to keep your Boa alive. Therefore snake owners create a demand for animals to be bred to be killed to be eaten. Just like sheep, pigs and cows only exist on farms as they are to be eaten by people. No one needs to keep pets. If you dislike the idea of animals being killed for food and truly believe in your principles that it is wrong for animals to die for food I suggest you humanely euthanaise your snake and spare the lives of numerous animals being killed just to feed your pet.


----------



## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

People who are vegan seem to forget that crop growing also contributes to the deaths of millions of animals every year. Wild animals are poisoned, shot and have their homes destroyed to grow our food. Not to mention the fact that they are grown with fertilizers made from dead animal parts!

No matter what you eat, your diet will directly or indirectly result in animals dying. I hate when vegans get all high and mighty about not eating animal products, when their diet still causes much death and suffering. 

Also, foxes do indeed need controlling. I've spent years watching and studying foxes, but I also accept that culling is an essential part of their management. Foxes do a lot of damage, not just to livestock, but also to other wildlife.


----------



## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

wildlifewarrior123 said:


> I am sure if you were the animals you would feel differently LiquidOnyx. There is something called empathy, some people have it, others just don't careabout other living beings. No animal should be murdered for the pleasure of some idiot.


And yet many rodents will be killed just so you can feed pets you don't need to keep, just so you can derive pleaseure from keeping them.

I also note that you have offered to swap a trinket snake for a tarantula :-

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/invert-classifieds/808050-trinket-snake-swap-tarantula.html

You want rid, and state the snake has to go through "No fault of it's own". You just got bored eh? You don't come across as a real animal lover on that thread at all. A pet should be for life. Not until you fancy a change.


----------



## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

Oh dear...

Only meant to mention how nice fake furs can be these days and it's turned into a slanging match 

Feel bad for bringing this thread back up now!!

For what it's worth, I'm of the live and let live attitude. I see no problem with by-products like leather or vintage fur. Or even fur from something that's been shot for dinner. Seems senseless to waste it. Don't like the idea of fur farms at all, mainly because they seem pointless to me when fakes are better in many ways. I can understand that if run properly, they're not all that bad. I just can't help but see them as unnecessary though. Professional bias I suppose!

As for veganism, can't understand it a bit I'm afraid. If nothing else, it strikes me as too complicated trying to avoid ALL animal products. I don't know if it's even possible. What about silly things like avoiding the soap in a pub loo just in case it's got something animaly in it? If people really want to do it, that's up to them, but I'm not too keen on the idea myself. Plus, I like egg rolls too much!!

Personally, I'm a half-arsed veggie. More for health reasons than any morality. When I say half arsed, I go through the odd phase of eating bacon sarnies, then I go back to being veggie. I guess it's whatever suits your lifestyle at the end of the day. It's just that what suits one person won't always suit another.


----------



## x Lindsay x (Jan 25, 2012)

Christie_ZXR said:


> Oh dear...
> 
> As for veganism, can't understand it a bit I'm afraid. If nothing else, it strikes me as too complicated trying to avoid ALL animal products. I don't know if it's even possible. What about silly things like avoiding the soap in a pub loo just in case it's got something animaly in it? If people really want to do it, that's up to them, but I'm not too keen on the idea myself. Plus, I like egg rolls too much!!
> 
> Personally, I'm a half-arsed veggie. More for health reasons than any morality. When I say half arsed, I go through the odd phase of eating bacon sarnies, then I go back to being veggie. I guess it's whatever suits your lifestyle at the end of the day. It's just that what suits one person won't always suit another.


Wouldn't say that's how it works. There is no way to be 100% vegan. Vegans will know this but that's not what they aim for. They think of it like they are at least making a difference as small as it is or it's for their own piece of mind becuase they aren't contributing to things they don't agree with as much and therefore won't be feeling guilty about it. Same reason I'm veggie and would like to be vegan. Eat meat and all that if you want I'm not going to tell anyone not to because most other people can push the bad parts of the industry to the back of their minds during dinner but I can't participate in it or support it because I feel upset about it. There's a lot of foods I miss but I would never eat it again simply because I would be consumed with guilt. Not just out of choice lol


----------



## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

Christie_ZXR said:


> Oh dear...
> 
> Only meant to mention how nice fake furs can be these days and it's turned into a slanging match
> 
> Feel bad for bringing this thread back up now!!


:lol2:
It did have some good discussion in it at one point, I thought... then everyone started calling everyone else a hypocrit...


----------



## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

em_40 said:


> :lol2:
> It did have some good discussion in it at one point, I thought... then everyone started calling everyone else a hypocrit...


Examine the lifestyles and opinions of people in enough detail and everyone will be guilty of hypocrisy to some degree! 

If people want to be vegan, vegetarian, piscatarian or omnivorous then it's their business, no one elses. I just have no time for those that try to claim that they are in some way more moral than others, when they are responsible for the deaths of animals directly or indirectly (snake and fish keepers are massive hypocrites in this type of argument).


----------

