# Breeder Shows - is our house in order



## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

Theres a lot going on with reptile shows at the moment so I thought it would be good for me to get something off my chest:-

I have been to a few shows this year where its clear the breeders are not hobbyists, Why would a hobbyist need 2 tables for livestock and have the tables stacked high with reptiles?
Also having businesses selling dry goods between hobbyists does make it look like a commercial "market" perhaps we should think about separating the 2.

The lines between private Hobbyist and commercial breeder have become very blurred, but that should not mean we should stop policing them.

When a breeder imports animals to sell on, then they cease to be a hobbyist.
When a breeder sell his livestock on a commercial scale to pet shops he ceases to be a hobbyist.
When a Breeder runs a business or makes a living from his breeding then he ceases to be a hobbyist.

These shows are about making sales, let be honest, but sales for me mean covering some of the costs not profit.

We as a group should say yes AR and other groups may well be short sighted, uninformed and just plain wrong but we have become blind/complacent to some of the actions we should not allow.

Let ensure our hobby/family is allowed to continue by ensuring we are not opening ourselves to further criticism.


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

Slurm said:


> Theres a lot going on with reptile shows at the moment so I thought it would be good for me to get something off my chest:-
> 
> I have been to a few shows this year where its clear the breeders are not hobbyists, Why would a hobbyist need 2 tables for livestock and have the tables stacked high with reptiles?
> Also having businesses selling dry goods between hobbyists does make it look like a commercial "market" perhaps we should think about separating the 2.
> ...


 all you do is moan that you cant get tables at shows because the rest of us are comercial breeders i do the shows i work full time as does my better half come to my house see my hobby and the 2 rooms it fills as well as our other animals ,hawks ,ferrets ,etc etc im a full time hobbyist so stop moaning


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Slurm said:


> When a breeder sell his livestock on a commercial scale to pet shops he ceases to be a hobbyist.



Whilst I agree in principle with what you are saying, this one is a sticking point for me. There will be a great many small time breeders, bearded dragons and corn snakes in particular, that have no real choice but to sell to pet shops. Even if it is only a single cluth of animals per season (up to 30). Does this count as commercial? I'm not sure...

Its a very thin line, perhaps we should consider the total cost of the animals as a limiting factor. If you sell animals worth a total of £4000 per annum (arbitrary number here) then this is no longer 'hobbyist' breeding? Or if you have to declare for tax...

Andy


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

penfold said:


> all you do is moan that you cant get tables at shows because the rest of us are comercial breeders i do the shows i work full time as does my better half come to my house see my hobby and the 2 rooms it fills as well as our other animals ,hawks ,ferrets ,etc etc im a full time hobbyist so stop moaning


So one previous post constitutes me moaning all the time does it?

Ive only not been able to do one show this year due to being booked out and cant say ive wasted too much time worrying about it.

go and troll somewhere else you have added nothing to the thread.


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Whilst I agree in principle with what you are saying, this one is a sticking point for me. There will be a great many small time breeders, bearded dragons and corn snakes in particular, that have no real choice but to sell to pet shops. Even if it is only a single cluth of animals per season (up to 30). Does this count as commercial? I'm not sure...
> 
> Its a very thin line, perhaps we should consider the total cost of the animals as a limiting factor. If you sell animals worth a total of £4000 per annum (arbitrary number here) then this is no longer 'hobbyist' breeding? Or if you have to declare for tax...
> 
> Andy


Very good points made, I'm sure only a very select few (if any!) of us actually make the £67k turn over to become VAT and Business Registered?!

I personally am a very keen Hobbyist Breeder, I still work full time, but keeping my collection is a full time commitment as well.


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

I do see for hobbyists selling to a shop is a good outlet, whilst makes little money it does ensure that the animals will find a home and in most cases have a good temporary one. I was referring to breeders supplying half the countries shops.


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

but surely if you have your own web site that could be seen as becoming or trying to become comercial as the average hobbyist would not need a website ,pal


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## excession (Apr 11, 2009)

penfold said:


> but surely if you have your own web site that could be seen as becoming or trying to become comercial as the average hobbyist would not need a website ,pal



I dont think simply having a website constitutes ambition to be come a commercial breeder.

It takes just a little time and less than a tenner to set up a website if you know what you are doing - and can be done by any amateur with the time to invest.

They are also fun and satisfying to set up 

I think having a site to both show off collections as well as selling livestock is as appealing to the hobbyist as much as any commercial breeder.


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## ccrew (Mar 11, 2009)

Slurm said:


> Theres a lot going on with reptile shows at the moment so I thought it would be good for me to get something off my chest:-
> 
> I have been to a few shows this year where its clear the breeders are not hobbyists, Why would a hobbyist need 2 tables for livestock and have the tables stacked high with reptiles?
> Also having businesses selling dry goods between hobbyists does make it look like a commercial "market" perhaps we should think about separating the 2.
> ...


in your own kind of way you may be right in what you are saying very interesting that maybe people should think of it as such like you i think there should be a stuck price for gecko's if they breed its a hobby yes but the prices the reptiles go for their should only be a stuck price on the reptiles lets say for it to be a hobby £40 per reptile then commercial it can be anything shame not everyone is like you thank's for sharing


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## Kev132 (Aug 13, 2006)

you must of been trying to book your tables REALLY late... we booked our 2nd table at donny about 8 days before the show, cant really blame that on anyone other than yourself.

i agree partly with what your saying, but c'mon, you get 50 chams hatch in one go, and another 50 hatching 2-3 weeks later... your not going to have to sell alot on pretty fast.... no other way to get around that without supplying a fair few shops.... same with multiple species of high clutching animals.

number of tables booked is completelly irrelevant aswell, for example, our 2 tables where shared between 3 of us !

it simply comes down to profit, if your making profit/reasonable profit then its time to start thinking of classing yourself as a commercial breeder.


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

Slurm said:


> Theres a lot going on with reptile shows at the moment so I thought it would be good for me to get something off my chest:-
> 
> I have been to a few shows this year where its clear the breeders are not hobbyists, Why would a hobbyist need 2 tables for livestock and have the tables stacked high with reptiles?
> Also having businesses selling dry goods between hobbyists does make it look like a commercial "market" perhaps we should think about separating the 2.
> ...


Tbh I cant really see what the problem you have is ,To me its pretty clear if you have a rep shop and sell animals as a business you are not a private breeder but if you are just breeding animals and making private sales you are not a business ,You cant really put a limit on the number of animals a hobbyist can keep and breed as that would not be fair.
As for people selling dry goods and live food at shows whats the problem with that?


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

penfold said:


> but surely if you have your own web site that could be seen as becoming or trying to become comercial as the average hobbyist would not need a website ,pal


:lol2: my Girlfriend did the website, and as much as she did quite well, i think its pretty clear its not too professional. 

I dont understand your anger towards my first post, i dont know who you are and i certainly wasnt aiming my post at you or other very committed hobbyists, i was and am referring to large scale commercial breeders.


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

Slurm said:


> :lol2: my Girlfriend did the website, and as much as she did quite well, i think its pretty clear its not too professional.
> 
> I dont understand your anger towards my first post, i dont know who you are and i certainly wasnt aiming my post at you or other very committed hobbyists, i was and am referring to large scale commercial breeders.


 sorry your post came at the wong time its very frustrating with the shows being canceled we put a lot of our time and work into doing shows and having another canceled is not good we plan at least 2 weeks ahead i have no problem with you at all ,but i dont think posts like this on an open forum particulary help at the mo once again id like to say sorry:2thumb:


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

Slurm said:


> Theres a lot going on with reptile shows at the moment so I thought it would be good for me to get something off my chest:-
> 
> I have been to a few shows this year where its clear the breeders are not hobbyists, Why would a hobbyist need 2 tables for livestock and have the tables stacked high with reptiles?
> Also having businesses selling dry goods between hobbyists does make it look like a commercial "market" perhaps we should think about separating the 2.
> ...


 i would guess i am on the larger side of being a breeder. i have looked into vat, tax, license etc and have been informed that as long as i sell my own hatchlings from my own babies, there is no issue as long as you dont go over the 67k limit as dave says below.
you are allowed to sell on older stock if you have kept it for about 2 years i think.. not totally sure on the time, buts something along those lines.
the guys you are talking about, i really think its because they do such a good job and have great looking stalls that makes them look professional.. my table usually looks like crap but can at times probably have many thousands of pounds worth of just corns..
on a side note, i absolutely know that i am way down on what i have sold compared to what i have sold.
its the people that are bringing stuff in purely to sell on that are really the ones you probably mean most??.. the ones that make plenty of money



Akua_Ko_Nalu said:


> Very good points made, I'm sure only a very select few (if any!) of us actually make the £67k turn over to become VAT and Business Registered?!
> 
> I personally am a very keen Hobbyist Breeder, I still work full time, but keeping my collection is a full time commitment as well.


 i would like to see who is?? cant be many as you say. i know a royal breeder who is reg and paying tax, but i also know he spent more on royals in 2 years than my house is worth.. i dont want to name him as its not my business.
if i ever get to the point where i am making a decent amount, then i;ll pay big taxes on it, i was hoping for it to be this year, but from my 220 or so hatchlings, 100 wer not viable as follows:-
13 died in egg
12 kinked snakes
ALL unselable and given away (not the dead ones obviously).. there were a couple of extra ones with mino bumps that went for about 15% of their value.
i had about 70 odd bad/slow feeders in the end.. maybe i have an incubation problem?, i dont know..
so thats pretty much 100..
i have solkd about 20 good corns in all, the bad feeders were sold but at massively reduced rate.
i keep all my records, just incase anyone does need to look into them at all... overall tho, i think all but a tiny handful are doing the right thing.


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

rum&coke said:


> Tbh I cant really see what the problem you have is ,To me its pretty clear if you have a rep shop and sell animals as a business you are not a private breeder but if you are just breeding animals and making private sales you are not a business ,You cant really put a limit on the number of animals a hobbyist can keep and breed as that would not be fair.
> As for people selling dry goods and live food at shows whats the problem with that?


What about shows were people are selling not just the animals they've bred, but others they've bought in to sell on. Thats one of the things the OP was commenting on. It does happen to.


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

yeah thats where you are ment to have a PSL, we have all sold something on at one time or another due to change of plans, financial situation, or something similar, i think its just the guys that literally buy lots to sell on regularly


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## Layla (Feb 12, 2007)

This is my first (successful) year breeding corns and 2 years ago I bred my 2 leopard gecko females. I sold some leo babies to a pet shop and some of my corns are booked to go to a shop as where I am there aren't a great deal of people lined up to by exotic pets. Also with these small numbers (7 leos from 2 females and 33 corns from 2 females) it wasnt worth my while booking a table at any shows which is what I plan to do in future.

Have I ceased to be a hobbyist, no I have not. When I breed (hopefully 6 corn snakes) next year will I....personally, I dont think so!
Who can put a final number on when you cross the line from hobbyist to proffesional?!

I notice the OP has double figure female geckos I would say this is a keen hobbyist however should all these females have their full potential of offspring in one year then some might say this is excessive and no longer hobby level. Me? I say good luck and have fun with them all  

I DO think people importing snakes they are not keeping themselves and selling on for profit are traders and NOT hobbyists. I personally wouldnt touch any of these snakes if I cannot speak to the breeder myself and it leaves it down to the hobbyist to source out competant, reliable and quality breeders.
Maybe I just cannot see the appeal of passing off others animals as your own OR not going to the effort (or trouble?) of doing it yourself. 

I also think dry goods are a must at the show as people, with all the best intentions, will still impulse buy thus needing equipment for said animals.
I also find the equipment very useful living 'waaayyyy oop North' as many couriers charge many times what the delivery is worth to come to my postcode and local shops rarely have exactly what I need. Why should I as a hobbyist not get what I require purely due to where I live?  

Where as its great to talk it out and bounce off ideas on how to improve our hobby I do think we need to band together and unite against the Anti's. Im all for animals being looked after and cared for appropriately. But some of what they do is practically terrorism. Its enough they are fighting against us without bring down each other.


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## LEXCORN (Feb 9, 2007)

penfold said:


> but surely if you have your own web site that could be seen as becoming or trying to become comercial as the average hobbyist would not need a website ,pal


Totally incorrect.

An interesting website is very informative for people who are thinking of entering into any hobby be it dogs, small mammals, raptors or, indeed, reptiles.

It is very misleading to presume that those people who have spent many hours building an excellent website are business oriented & not hobbyists.

There is a wealth of knowledge available for those who are serious in their intentions of starting a new hobby. The major reptile shows offer a selection of books & so too the Internet. However, for those who do not wish to attend a show that may entail a long journey then the Internet is where they will search for relevant details of their chosen 'sport'.

A dedicated website is an important & informative tool.

Lex


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

I think the question of when a hobby becomes a business is very interesting.

From what I can gather, it's all about intent.

If I buy reptile A then see reptile B, which I prefer and sell Reptile A to make way for Reptile B... that's a hobby.

If I buy a Reptile with the intention of selling it for more money than I paid for it... that's a business.

If I buy a Reptile with the intention of breeding it and making money from the hatchlings... that's a business.

If I buy a Reptile, breed it, hatch out a few hatchlings for my enjoyment then sell them on at a later date simply to make room ... that's a hobby.

Profit margins and VAT have nothing to do with business. MANY businesses run at a loss for years.


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## oakelm (Jan 14, 2009)

I agree you must having been booking really last minute. I booked my doncaster table within the last few days before the cut off and there were still some people who got tables after me. If you want a table for definate then book early.

Also personally I prefer to sell at shows than have loads of different people coming to my house for individual snakes. I work full time and stupid hours so not practical for me. So when I go to a show it looks like I have loads but really thats probably all that years snakes. I also holdback lots of snakes to get exactly what I want so end up with older snakes for sale doesnt mean I have brought to sell on. But this year I brought a male royal for future plans, had an unexpected surprise in a clutch so kept 3 complete clutches by another male so that recent purchase male plus a few others had to go to make room. Doesnt mean I was intentionally buying to sell on. I think a lot of things that look big and professional often arent as big as you imagine. I try to look professional because if I have my website, contact details, logo then people remember me, buy from me again or can get hold of me if they need to.

Also on the subject of websites I find it helpful for people to know a bit about you and your animals without having to ask a million questions plus pics help to show examples of hatchlings or lines being bred. Not great for selling as you would have to update them all the time but as a point of reference for people they are great. Also mine only cost me £9.99 so hardly takes a lot of cash to do one just a bit of time and patience to set it up. Mine still isnt finished but getting there.


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## Horsfield (Oct 1, 2008)

How many private breeders declare there profit or loss? this is a second income


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## excession (Apr 11, 2009)

oakelm said:


> Also on the subject of websites I find it helpful for people to know a bit about you and your animals without having to ask a million questions plus pics help to show examples of hatchlings or lines being bred. Not great for selling as you would have to update them all the time but as a point of reference for people they are great. Also mine only cost me £9.99 so hardly takes a lot of cash to do one just a bit of time and patience to set it up. Mine still isnt finished but getting there.


Mine cost me £5.98 iirc :gasp:

Cheep as chips


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## Horsfield (Oct 1, 2008)

When looking at web address people need to look at what .co and .com mean? these are business addresses!


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## oakelm (Jan 14, 2009)

Horsfield said:


> How many private breeders declare there profit or loss? this is a second income


I did for two years when I produced more than I do now and both times never had to pay any extra tax or anything. But after the second time got a nice informative leaflet about the thresholds for personal earnings and who needs to fill in a tax return, I think they were hinting I dont make enough. I check every year to make sure nothing has changed and give them a call if there has been a change and get the same answer each time after telling them the numbers that no you dont have to fill in a tax return. For me I keep more than breed so with the costs of keeping I always run at a loss each year but consider it to be my hobby, just seems to get a more expensive hobby each year.



excession said:


> Mine cost me £5.98 iirc :gasp:
> 
> Cheep as chips


See I thought mine was cheap but obviously not :devil:


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## Layla (Feb 12, 2007)

Horsfield said:


> When looking at web address people need to look at what .co and .com mean? these are business addresses!


Im vice chariperson of a registered dog charity. Where as our main address is .org.uk we also own all other alternatives to stop anyone setting up a similar site claiming to be us. This happens. Just because its .co.uk or .com does not mean it is a business


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## haunted-havoc (Aug 6, 2009)

i believe that .biz is the suffix for a buissness website, not 100% sure though

it seems daft to me, if some one breeds for a hobby and has say 100 hatchlings that would get much better care from a buyer, opposed to the breeder who has them all and has to divide time between each. the breeder will never be able to give the time to each individual as to what they deserve.

however to sell these on to me, is not a problem. he has had to provide all the right husbandry for the parents and said hatchlings, which in turn costs money. so i dont see the problem with subsidising the cost of this to give someone a wonderful pet.


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## LEOnitus (Mar 6, 2009)

ccrew said:


> in your own kind of way you may be right in what you are saying very interesting that maybe people should think of it as such like you i think there should be a stuck price for gecko's if they breed its a hobby yes but the prices the reptiles go for their should only be a stuck price on the reptiles lets say for it to be a hobby £40 per reptile then commercial it can be anything shame not everyone is like you thank's for sharing



EH?????????????? :lol2::lol2::lol2:


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