# large herp collection welfare?



## pymn nice but dim (Oct 28, 2008)

what are peoples views on large collections i know that alot of people keep theyre animas in very simple vivs or racking systems but how do people feel about the quality of life for theyre animals.

its all well and good being simple clean safe etc but i can help but hate the newspaper substrate genoration, with nothing but water and food bowls.

this isnt targeted at owners who care to keep theyre animals in these conditions i just personaly feel its not right, as people who love theyre animals could surly go the extra mile for stimulating there animals minds. 

again im not trying to cause trouble i just wanted to discuss any one agree disagree any points to be made?


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

some of our snakes are in a rack as we have quite a large collection and it is the most practical way to keep them, but I dont use newspaper and only put snakes in rubs that are the right size for them, all our rubs have substraight and hides just like they would have in a viv


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## capester (Oct 18, 2007)

interesting one, I think its going to be all out war on here soon! Just for the record my brbs won't feed and get aggressive if kept in vivs but in their rubbs they are placid and never miss a feed. At risk of sounding controversial- Do reps want their minds stimulating? And if so what warrants a 'stimulated' reptililian mind. I feel that my snakes are perfectly happy to be in a safe, warm contained environment with water and regular food. I also feel that more active herps such as lizards and frogs need more in the way of decor to chase their food and hide, breed etc. Like I say though....good luck, I hope you have a tin hat ready!

:war:


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## mrcarlxx (May 1, 2009)

well the substreight is more for the owners benifit....the animal couldnt care a less what it is on : victory:


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

> this isnt targeted at owners who care to keep theyre animals in these conditions i just personaly feel its not right, as people who love theyre animals could surly go the extra mile for stimulating there animals minds.


well thats me buggered then :whistling2:

I have a largish collection and I care to keep all of mine in simple, easy to clean and relatively safe viv/stack enviroments and while I don't use newspaper I do use kitchenroll, wallpaper, lino ... example ~

























and I will go even further with bare essentials with regards to quarentine/treatment vivs/rubs


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

No one should keep over 10 snakes


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## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

mrcarlxx said:


> well the substreight is more for the owners benifit....the animal couldnt care a less what it is on : victory:


So animals that exhibit burrowing behaviour in the wild dont need to do it in captivity? I can think of numerous species that use sandy substrates to ambush their prey or hide from predators, but because they're in a tank we can ignore this. Being in a tank isnt ideal but why cant we faciliate as much natural behaviour as possible?

I agree pymn with this, i dont like the newspaper RUB generation, if anything i find it ignorant to the complexity and beauty of nature. It makes it easy for the keeper to clean, feed and see the snake and nature just isnt like this.

In terms of stimulated snakes - little research has been done on captive stress levels but measuring cortisol levels in blood/faeces of both captive and wild reptiles would be a fantastic honours project for someone. Mammals and birds exhibit stereotypies (repeated meaningless behaviour) in captivity and perhaps nose rubbing, repeated path tracing and increased lethargy could be considered stereotypic behaviour in reptiles but because we have no base line data from wild specimens its hard to quanitfy if captives animals are indeed 'satisfied' or not.

SleepyD - i think your setups looks excellent, there's multiple levels, textures and surfaces for the geckos to explore and imagine they get change every now and again meaning the enclosure is rexplored. Ive seen a lot lot worse.

*ducks and hides before the s*** hits the fan.*


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## capester (Oct 18, 2007)

I use RUBs because they hold humidity so well and if animal starts to starve itself and strike repeatedly at anything that moves (and some things that don't!) when placed in a 'stimulating' viv then I'd lean towards saying that its stress levels may be a smidge higher than in a sterile, cruel, environment that is just to make things easier for the keeper (even though said keeper tried everything to make them 'happy and stimulated' in their expensive set up that is now sitting empty because they didnt like like it). I think a pinch of common sense is in order. Or shall I force them to live in an environment that they are clearly unhappy in just to please fellow keepers? :whistling2:


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## oakelm (Jan 14, 2009)

Im a rub rack keeper, mainly on unprinted newspaper but also aspen for the ksb's, the royals get a plastic hide and a water bowl, some of the older ones dont use the hides so dont get one. I see it as no matter what you do unless you can convert an entire basement into a snapshot of africa for one or two royals for example there is no way I can recreate the natural environment.

To me (my personal opinion) a wooden viv with fake rock hides or cork bark is just as un-natural but harder to keep clean, in the wild they would be able to get away from where they poop or shed but in capitivity that isnt possible so unless its easy to clean there is a risk of build up of bacteria and anything wood is a bugger to deal with when a collection has mites. And for instance the kenyan sand boas would still have aspen if they were in a viv and would never use anything above the surface (I used to keep them in vivs many moons ago) so be it a plastic or wood box they still have the same view just more wasted space above them, which is a fundamental floor in most vivs is too much height.

I do agree very little in known about the effects of stress on captive reptiles but non of my snakes nose rub, all eat well, all bred if required, they are doing what they like to do which is keep away from predators including us humans. It is a method that has worked for me for many years (I started off keeping everything in vivs, even with a bigger collection) so until valid research is presented that states differently then it is the way I will continue.


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## Freya Louise (Oct 28, 2009)

as natural and stress free as poss i feel is the key, enrichment is crucial to prevent unwanted behaviours, i couldnt feel more strobly, and wish more interesting enrichment and natural stimuli were encoraged more, THEY MAKE HAPPY PETS what ever the species


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## Tarn~Totty (May 4, 2009)

Ive used both, I used Rubs when I first got my snakes, then moved them on to vivs. The smaller snake seems happier in a nice enclosed Rub, while the others dont seem to care less as then dont use the space they have anyway (although it is there and provided if they ever do, in the form of 4x2x2 vivs with stuff to climb on and hide under).

My substrate is at the minute either lino tiles, newspaper and kitchen roll, although I am re-searching natural looking set-ups as I do want to go for that.

As my lizards use all of their space, they have loads more stimulation I think (lots more to climb about on, look at, use etc) than my snakes.

I dont breed any of my reps, and I dont have many. If I had alot more, or was a breeder etc things might be different.... I really cant say.

Each to their own, as the saying goes. What works for one might not work for another. Whatever you find works for both you and your reptile is whats important to me. Happy animal, happy owner :2thumb:


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## Freya Louise (Oct 28, 2009)

mrcarlxx said:


> well the substreight is more for the owners benifit....the animal couldnt care a less what it is on : victory:


Many problem behaviours occur due to incorrect substrates, walls and materials, animals hold association very easily with what we would see as the most insane objects, but to them they dont look deep enough into things to work out why they are in discomfort, just that that object is detrimental to them and as reps show the least body language how are you to know. 

for EXAMPLE cats often will only toilet in some substrates and will sometimes hold themselves untill medical damge is done if the right substrate is not avalible to them.
some animals will not even breed unless conditions were not correct, and consider this every individaual species has evloved to walk on a specific substrate, they are genetically formed to dig, climb, burrow ect and the animal welfare act specifies an animal shouldhave the freedom to express natural behaviour.

im not undermining you as i feel many people or here have no respect for other people opions and are quite quick to get personal and rude. so this is just something for you to consider


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## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

oakelm said:


> Im a rub rack keeper, mainly on unprinted newspaper but also aspen for the ksb's, the royals get a plastic hide and a water bowl, some of the older ones dont use the hides so dont get one. I see it as no matter what you do unless you can convert an entire basement into a snapshot of africa for one or two royals for example there is no way I can recreate the natural environment.
> 
> To me (my personal opinion) a wooden viv with fake rock hides or cork bark is just as un-natural but harder to keep clean, in the wild they would be able to get away from where they poop or shed but in capitivity that isnt possible so unless its easy to clean there is a risk of build up of bacteria and anything wood is a bugger to deal with when a collection has mites. And for instance the kenyan sand boas would still have aspen if they were in a viv and would never use anything above the surface (I used to keep them in vivs many moons ago) so be it a plastic or wood box they still have the same view just more wasted space above them, which is a fundamental floor in most vivs is too much height.
> 
> I do agree very little in known about the effects of stress on captive reptiles but non of my snakes nose rub, all eat well, all bred if required, they are doing what they like to do which is keep away from predators including us humans. It is a method that has worked for me for many years (I started off keeping everything in vivs, even with a bigger collection) so until valid research is presented that states differently then it is the way I will continue.


I can understand the necessity of a large scale keeper such as yourself keeping your collection in RUBS etc, time simply wouldn't allow you to create sophisticated sets ups that require cleaning on the scale you're talking about. You'd end with dirty vivs simply because there wouldn't be enough hours in the day to clean, which no one wants.

For the life of me i cannot find the diagram i want but basically it graphically represents how an animal will do once it attains certain threshold levels of survival. The last of these is breeding indicating snakes in RUBS obviously do do well as they have passed that threshold level.

There is just something i inherently find quite perterbing about keeping a living creature in the minimum space required with the minimum 'furniture', maybe this is just my personal opinion but just seems if people are willing to spend X amount on a animal they should have the decency to carry on spending the nessecary funds to ensure firstly correct equipments ie stats and then increasing the enrichment available in the viv whether it simply be varied textures or something more complex. There is only one paper (that i can find) Burghardt et al 1996 - Problem of reptile play: environmental enrichment and play behaviour in a captive nile soft shelled turtle, give it a read. Yes it has been dismissed by some people but surely we should give the animals the benefit of the doubt rather than assume a lack of cognitive ability.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Interesting post......
Aesthetically I like vivs more, but for cleaning and time/effort then RUBS work best. 
As for the animals 'wellbeing' when I first started keeping reps I had a bee in my bonnet about small spaces, equating it to keeping a dog locked up 24x7, but soon caqme to realise it isn't the same....
A lot of reps (especially young ones) get really stressed at open space and really do benefit from being closed in it seems. I am more than happy now to use fairly small tubs/rubs for leo's but still have my full grown adults in vivs as I just like to watch them more in those setups. Can't say they seem to mind though, moving from a tub/rub to a viv seems to make no difference to the way any of mine act. Our corn snake certainly hid away for a while when given her 3ft viv after being in a faunarium for 7/8 months, but again, now I couldn't keep her in a RUB as she loves exploring and using all the space and height including her climbing branches. As she is 5ft long I just feel she can stretch out a bit more in a viv.

As I said - interesting !

(the only downer on vivs is space for me btw - I have had to take over the kids rooms now - ah well ! ) :lol2:


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## oakelm (Jan 14, 2009)

Zak said:


> I can understand the necessity of a large scale keeper such as yourself keeping your collection in RUBS etc, time simply wouldn't allow you to create sophisticated sets ups that require cleaning on the scale you're talking about. You'd end with dirty vivs simply because there wouldn't be enough hours in the day to clean, which no one wants.
> 
> For the life of me i cannot find the diagram i want but basically it graphically represents how an animal will do once it attains certain threshold levels of survival. The last of these is breeding indicating snakes in RUBS obviously do do well as they have passed that threshold level.
> 
> There is just something i inherently find quite perterbing about keeping a living creature in the minimum space required with the minimum 'furniture', maybe this is just my personal opinion but just seems if people are willing to spend X amount on a animal they should have the decency to carry on spending the nessecary funds to ensure firstly correct equipments ie stats and then increasing the enrichment available in the viv whether it simply be varied textures or something more complex. There is only one paper (that i can find) Burghardt et al 1996 - Problem of reptile play: environmental enrichment and play behaviour in a captive nile soft shelled turtle, give it a read. Yes it has been dismissed by some people but surely we should give the animals the benefit of the doubt rather than assume a lack of cognitive ability.


I shall give it a read, always interested in research in regards to any exotics. I do see where you are coming from as I think people often do go too small in rub selection but I think a lot can be species specific as royals are known to thrive in rubs especially small rubs, sand boas it doesnt really matter due to the way in which they live. But for example a crested gecko would not fair well in a paper only setup as they do climb and do like lots of hiding. I have kept cresteds myself and kept them in rubs as well as vivs too as I dont think it matters so much what you use but how you use it, the rubs I had were big tall rubs (morrisons have a great range these days) that were about the same size as the 60x45x45 exo terra terrariums but easier to clean, lighter to move for cleaning and you can soulder a hole in them anywhere to add decor, I didnt go for a fully natural rub but did use a combo of real and artificial plants. They were very easy to maintain if they were glass exo's then they wouldnt have been (I tend to break glass far too easily).

Personally I get massively annoyed when people dont use stats or setup correct temps regardless of what housing you use, basic needs should be done first as a natural or pleasing to the eye setup is nothing if the heating isnt effective or regulated.

I guess everyone has their own pet hates.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Zak said:


> So animals that exhibit burrowing behaviour in the wild dont need to do it in captivity? I can think of numerous species that use sandy substrates to ambush their prey or hide from predators, but because they're in a tank we can ignore this. Being in a tank isnt ideal but why cant we faciliate as much natural behaviour as possible?


like throwing some predators in? how about housing lizards and snakes together? or slinging an eagle in the viv too.
maybe zoos should have poachers.



> I agree pymn with this, i dont like the newspaper RUB generation, if anything i find it ignorant to the complexity and beauty of nature. It makes it easy for the keeper to clean, feed and see the snake and nature just isnt like this.


but they're not wild caught, they're brought up from a generation of snakes living the same way.
How does a 6th generation snake know what it should be like?


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## fishboy (Aug 7, 2007)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> No one should keep over 10 snakes



or feed them after midnight :gasp:


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

but they're not wild caught said:


> Brilliant point. This is something I have given a lot of consideration to!
> 
> Now I'm not claiming to be a expert, just talking from what I have seen, but a lot of animals (not just snakes, or just reps for that matter) Do seem to be hardwired (to some extent) as to what their native habitat should be like. Suppose question is how hardwired are they after (say) 6 generations of captive breeding?
> 
> ...


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## kettykev (May 15, 2009)

I keep most of my snakes in RUB type containers and provide them with hides in the tubs to give them a feeling of extra security. I do a lot of field herping and I know that when I walk into a large field for example then I will probably find snakes hiding curled up beneath stones,sheets of tin and assorted rubbish.There is not a lot of habitat enrichment happening beneath a stone.


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## Lisasgeckonursery (Feb 14, 2008)

Some reptiles thrive in a RUB environment, Its not always appropriate but my Leopard geckos live in RUBs and it doesn't always mean minimal space or decor.
My RUBs are 2.5 foot (1 Leo per RUB)and have loads of hides and bark etc for climbing and hiding, I don't think that their home being made of shiny glass and wood would make a difference to their welfare thats purely for us humans benefit plus the rack helps me to keep them clean and well cared for efficiantly.
Each to their own :2thumb:


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## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

Meko said:


> like throwing some predators in? how about housing lizards and snakes together? or slinging an eagle in the viv too.
> maybe zoos should have poachers.
> 
> but they're not wild caught, they're brought up from a generation of snakes living the same way.
> How does a 6th generation snake know what it should be like?



Now, now. Predation and disease is something we have to readily accept is not beneficial to a captive animal, whether the keeper is attempting to recreate its natural environment or not. It would ridiculous to say that in an animals best interest to be stimulated it should therefore be hunted.

I agree they're not wild caught but as Metaphysicalninja said a lot of behaviour exhibited by animals is innate and based on instinct. If an animals scared, the fight or flight response is exhibited, this is true of animals out in the wild or your umpteenth generation pet dog. Tinbergen has done some fabulous studies looked at learned vs innate behaviour, quite a few of those were in birds meaning drawing parallels to reptiles is slightly easier (determined to have similar cognitive abilities overall). Is the exhibition of innate behaviour not just as crucial as learned? Should an environment not promote an entire repertoire of behaviour not just those favoured by the keeper? Ie, busy vivariums allowing animals multiple hiding spaces and the ability to move about without feeling exposed vs the barer, easier to keep and easier on the eye of the keeper?

Reptiles (as far as i know) have very little learned behaviour, indicating a limited ability to gain from the experience of others. If the experience of others can not be used, surely the innate experience of the species would be drawn into action. A certain hardwiring of the nervous system must be in place, allowing the animal to know how and where to hunt, when to be active etc, if this wasn't the case then how would the animal function? Especially as very little parental care is given within reptiles as a whole.

In no way am i having a go at any keeper, as long as their herps are happy, eating and breeding well something is obviously right. 

Oakelm - never knew Morrisons did such large RUB's, i do like how half the herp community turn into Blue Peter, producing things they made earlier from the unlikeliest of stuff and usually ending up with products better than half of those on the market.


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## vetdebbie (Jan 4, 2008)

Keeping animals in easy to clean environments doesn't mean they have to be environmentally boring. Our corns are in rub racks and we find them easy to maintain, but they have substrate that they can bury into (we're using aspen at the moment), they have hides (only the one in smaller rubs, but 2 or 3 in the big ones) and stuff to climb on. All our hides are cardboard - visually appealing, no, easy to clean, yes (bin, start again). Some of them have branches to climb on - again, if they get skanky they get binned, and we raid our garden for more. Some of the just have more random pieces of cardboard to climb on - depends how windy it's been at the time as to the branch availability! So from our snakes are concerned they have much the same environment in a rub rack as they would in a viv in our lounge. The only difference is to us - i wouldn't want any of our rubs as a display in our lounge!

And before there are any comments, all branches are removed of spikey bits, f10'd, allowed to dry, then baked before encountering a snake.


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## fantapants (Jan 4, 2008)

i kept all of my adult royals in a viv stack until i felt that i needed to move them to a rub rack due to space issues. i felt a tiny bit guilty until i took the viv stack apart. it looked fine........until it was in bits. i cant even begin to describe how much cack and shite had seeped into the cracks and joins ( even though they were sealed with silicone). i was pretty much horrified and i realise how lucky i was that i hadnt lost any of my animals to infection from the harboured bacteria. Now, they snakes are in rubs and i KNOW thet they are as clean as possible.

all of my snakes have greatly improved eating habbits and are moved into bigger rubs when they grow . i wouldnt go back to vivs if you paid me. my animals are happier and they get checked alot more frequently than when they were in vivs. i miss that i cant see them, so i do spot check every morning and night. Rubs all the way for me!


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