# Your opinions on pet shop conditions / advice?



## Onissarle (Mar 1, 2007)

Recently I've been hearing a lot about a specialist reptile shop that had opened between Huddersfield (where I live) and Bradford and decided to go and take a look for myself. 

The first time I go to any reptile shop, I never immediately disclose my level of experience and the range and scale of my collection, that is I pretend to be a lot less experienced than I am to see how the staff talk to me and what advice they give out to people who rely on them. I find you can learn everything you need to know about a shop in the first ten minutes by doing this as it shows the level of knowledge and quality of care that the shop deems acceptable and it's sometimes interesting to see what kind of animals they recommend for an inexperienced keeper.

I've just gotten back from the shop and what I saw has raised a few concerns in my mind. I'm not going to explain that or voice my personal opinion on any of these points just yet because I don't want to unduly influence other people forming their own opinions. What I am going to do is list a handful of the things I saw while I was there and relate some of the advice the staff gave me. This is not a comprehensive list, just the things that stuck in my mind the most. I would like to know what other people think of the husbandry practices I saw and about the advice I was given by their staff to see if the opinion I formed is representative of keepers as a whole or not.

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So, I went in with my partner, said we were looking for something to put in a "3ft viv" (we never gave any more information on the dimensions of the viv and they never asked) that could comfortably spend its entire life in a viv that size. When asked, we said we had a corn and a couple of leos (which is technically true, I do own corns and leos... amongst everything else) and were looking for something different. We told them we'd tried researching on the internet but needed some proper advice.

*Setup and conditions:*

In general, the enclosures looked clean and well maintained but there seemed to be no consistency in the setup or substrates used. The substrates especially seemed fairly random and not always the most appropriate for the animal.

The back of all the vivs was made from sheet MDF. Glued together at the edges. The surface appeared to be un-treated and un-sealed (MDF releases toxic fumes when heated that can accumulate in small, enlosed spaces)

I lost count of the number of unguarded heat bulbs but one in particular sticks in my mind. In the crested gecko vivarium, the bulb had no guard and there were crested gecko toe prints burned on to the surface of the bulb.

There were three blizzard leopard geckos in a viv, one male and two females. Two were clearly under weight for adults while the other was SEVERELY under weight for an adult and its front legs wobbled slightly as it walked. These animals were being sold as a "breeding trio".

There was a Californian kingsnake labelled as a "Florida Cali King" that appeared to be significantly under weight as its spine was showing far more clearly than I would expect.

The UV tubes were not mounted or secured in any way. They were hanging loose by their cables in the vivs, with some clearly falling down at one side or another.

The vents in the back of the vivs were not secured in any way. This was made apparent by the cables from the free-hanging UV tubes having pulled some of them half way out of their holes.

From all the food dishes and feeding animals we saw, all herbivorous and omnivorous lizards were being given lettuce as their primary food source. For those unfamiliar with herbivorous lizards, lettuce carries very little nutrition as it is mostly water and is shunned by keepers of species like iguanas and tortoises.

There was what appeared to be a single, small Ackie in a viv that appeared to have an energy saving bulb (perhaps a compact UVB) as its only heat source.  It spent the entire time we were there directly under the bulb, flat out with its eyes closed. I've been looking into buying a trio of ackies recently and I've not seen one that lethargic before. It is possible there was a heat mat hidden under the blue sand it was on but I didn't notice any cables for one running out through the vents where the cables exited in all the other vivs.

I don't remember seeing any thermostat probes in the basking areas in any of the vivs I looked in and didn't see any thermostat controls in accessible areas. However, this could just mean they were very well hidden.

*Advice we were given:*

We were told that an adult bearded dragon would be suitable for spending its entire life in a 3ft viv.

We were told that an adult frilled dragon could be kept just like a beardy and could happily spend its entire life in a normal 3ft viv as long as we got it out to handle like a beardy (For those unfamiliar with frilled dragons, adult frilled dragon viv size is recommended as at LEAST 4ft tall because they are largely arboreal in habit. I've looked into it in the past because I'm interested in the species and have previously decided not to get them because I'd struggle to provide the needed height).

We were told to feed frillies and beardies no more than three boxes of live food a week. We were not told that they would require veg and greens in addition to a diet of insects.

The "Florida Cali King" whose condition I previously mentioned was briefly recommended to us.

They also suggested a crested gecko for our "3ft viv".

They suggested A Bismark ringed python as our second snake without establishing how well we had cared for our first cornsnake.

*Things we were never asked before they made recommendations: *

How we were keeping our current animals or how long we had owned them. The only thing they asked was how big our cornsnake was after we commented that their corn was bigger than ours. They didn't seem to pick up that the size we gestured for an animal we thought was two years old was smaller than a snake that age should be.

What sort of equipment we had in the viv already for heating and lighting.

What sort of budget we were looking at and how much we could afford to spend on extra equipment like UVB or ongoing feeding costs.

*Mis-labelled/mis-represented animals:*

There were two adult cornsnakes in different vivs, each labelled as "Sunglows". There is some debate over the line bred aspects of sunglow but one absolute requirement is that the snake is *homozygous amelanistic*. An amel consnake does not produce black pigment and therefore has red eyes. The snakes they were selling as "Sunglow" both had black pupils and black belly markings. They appeared to be hypos.

When the ringed python was reccomended to us because it looked so unique, we were told that the only colour change as it grew would be that the orange got a bit lighter (From previous research and all the pictures I've just been able to find as confirmation, Bismark's lose their bright colours and become a muddy black-brown as they reach adult size).

There was a snake labelled as a "Texas Everglades". I own both Texas ratsnakes and Everglades ratsnakes, this was neither. From what I could see it appeared to be something like a bubblegum rat or perhaps a Belle Glades ratsnake.

The "Ackie" that I've mentioned was labelled as a "Dwarf mountain monitor", if someone is familiar with this common name please say as I've been unable to find any reference to it anywhere. The animal definitely appeared to be Varanus acanthurus and I've so far been unable to find any other species it could have been.

*Other points:*

Not a single animal in the entire shop appeared to have been labelled with a scientific name, which is what most specialist keepers use. This seems unusual for a specialist reptile shop.

There was no information on display about any of the species, experience level or care required.

There were a number of 'rescue' animals up for sale with significant price tags attached to them although they were upfront about the animals being rescues with problems so I can't fault them on that side of it.

-----

Now that you've read through all these points and had a chance to form your own opinion I'll say that I really wasn't impressed by this shop. The quality of care for some of those animals (I can't stop thinking about the cresties) is far below what I consider acceptable husbandry. I also find it fairly shocking that they'd recommend a frilled dragon to an inexperienced keeper on the grounds it could spend its entire life in a normal 3ft viv as that active, arboreal species requires a huge enclosure that most keepers can't provide. I'm also a little bugged by the clearly mis-labelled animals, that's always a pet peeve for me. If they don't know what it is, why not? (They are a reptile specialist after all) If they don't know what it is, they shouldn't be labelling it as something it isn't if for no other reason than a new owner won't be able to find proper care advice if the name they were given is wrong.

So what I'd like to know is whether or not we're over-reacting? What are your opinions?


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## Issa (Oct 13, 2006)

Nice to know its not just me that does that, I tend to play dumb (well dumber :lol2 than I actually am the first time I visit a new shop, depending on the reaction I get is whether or not I go back. I gotta admit, theres one near me now that I wouldn't darken their doorstep again if they paid me, after the rather rude assistant snapped at me after I asked about an ackie they had " Its not an ackie stupid, its a Ridge tailed monitor" Suffice to say I returned the livefood I had intended to purchase and walked out.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

far too long for me to read it all but a couple of points i spotted:

MDF contains Formaldehyde and its when cutting MDF where the danger lies

many people keep beardies happily in a 3ft viv, 4x2x2 is the _recommended_ minimum size

don't think i've ever been in a reptile shop where they've had the scientific names of animals on all the vivs. I own 4 royals, a corn snake, a mexican black and a boa.. i don't know, or care for, the scientific names of any of them.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Meko said:


> MDF contains Formaldehyde and its when cutting MDF where the danger lies


From what I understand and from what I have read, unfinished MDF outgasses formaldehyde (slowly and at low concentration, although heating increases this) until and unless it is correctly finished with paint, melamine or another impermeable coating. 



> many people keep beardies happily in a 3ft viv, 4x2x2 is the _recommended_ minimum size


Given they didn't ask what the other two dimensions were, I would say that a 3X15X15 vivarium is unacceptably small for a lizard expected to exceed 15 inches in length. 



> don't think i've ever been in a reptile shop where they've had the scientific names of animals on all the vivs. I own 4 royals, a corn snake, a mexican black and a boa.. i don't know, or care for, the scientific names of any of them.


There are lots of reasons you might want to know scientific names. There's a world of difference and indeed half a world of distance between a _Lamprophis_ and a _Lampropeltis_; there are dozens of species known as "green tree snake"; some of those are venomous. 

Your snakes are:
_Python regius_
_Pantherophis guttatus_
_Lampropeltis getulus nigrita_ (which isn't the same as _L. g. *****_, the Black King)
And_ Boa constrictor_ ssp. 

A good shop will provide those names because a "common name" doesn't tell you what the animal actually IS. The scientific name DOES.


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## Dave-Flames (Sep 20, 2006)

Meko said:


> don't think i've ever been in a reptile shop where they've had the scientific names of animals on all the vivs. I own 4 royals, a corn snake, a mexican black and a boa.. i don't know, or care for, the scientific names of any of them.



Totally agree there.. i think i've only ever been in one shop that does have them.. a collector will know the latin and common names anyway.. to much info like that will put newbies off in the first place..


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Dave-Flames said:


> Totally agree there.. i think i've only ever been in one shop that does have them.. a collector will know the latin and common names anyway.. to much info like that will put newbies off in the first place..


If a scientific name is going to put a newbie off, then how do you expect them to do the right research to keep the animal? Knowing you bought/looked at/wanted to research a "green snake" isn't enough - you need to know WHICH green snake it is.

The good-quality shops I've been in HAVE listed the scientific bi/trinomials.

I might not know what the common name of the little red snakes with bright green heads and blue eyes is, but I know they're _Boiga cyanea_ - and knowing that means that if I get nipped and have a bad reaction, I know what to tell the emergency-room staff, too.


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## Dave-Flames (Sep 20, 2006)

Thats just stupid though.. noone will have "a green snake" on a label.. it will be labelled in most cases by its common name.. 

I provide care sheets for all animals on asking and if someones unsure i won't sell it.. 

A newbie wouldnt come in asking for a boiga and i wouldnt sell one to anyone that doesn't seem to know what they are talking about!


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## bosc888 (Jun 3, 2007)

never been in a rep shop that displays scientific names & we travel to quite a few, I am fairly sure the vast majority of rep keepers do not know & dont care what th scientific names are.
as for conditions animals are being kept in how often do people come on here complaining about a shop but say nothing to the owner or staff,you should have the courage to speek up & voice your concerns instead of rushing home to write an essay:whistling2:


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## naz_pixie (Oct 6, 2008)

i totaly agree with this!!! the latin name is very important!! i spent 3 months trying to research a paticular lizard i saw because the common name given was one of MANY.. and often this is the case.. many animals have more than 1, maybe even more than 5 comman names!! not all advice, infomation ect can be found under one common name.. but a sientific name is a deffinition.. and no i dont know what all the scientific names are for every animal, and i am pretty new to keeping reps BUT i make sure i learn them, and if i find a species im interested in i make sure i write down the name so i can start to remeber them.... 

and as for saying scientific names would put off a newbie.. if they cant even be bothered to atleast try and learn the correct name for the animal in there care then i dont think they should be keeping it!!


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## naz_pixie (Oct 6, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> If a scientific name is going to put a newbie off, then how do you expect them to do the right research to keep the animal? Knowing you bought/looked at/wanted to research a "green snake" isn't enough - you need to know WHICH green snake it is.
> 
> The good-quality shops I've been in HAVE listed the scientific bi/trinomials.
> 
> I might not know what the common name of the little red snakes with bright green heads and blue eyes is, but I know they're _Boiga cyanea_ - and knowing that means that if I get nipped and have a bad reaction, I know what to tell the emergency-room staff, too.


i totaly agree with this!!! the latin name is very important!! i spent 3 months trying to research a paticular lizard i saw because the common name given was one of MANY.. and often this is the case.. many animals have more than 1, maybe even more than 5 comman names!! not all advice, infomation ect can be found under one common name.. but a sientific name is a deffinition.. and no i dont know what all the scientific names are for every animal, and i am pretty new to keeping reps BUT i make sure i learn them, and if i find a species im interested in i make sure i write down the name so i can start to remeber them.... 

and as for saying scientific names would put off a newbie.. if they cant even be bothered to atleast try and learn the correct name for the animal in there care then i dont think they should be keeping it!!


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

naz_pixie said:


> and as for saying scientific names would put off a newbie.. if they cant even be bothered to atleast try and learn the correct name for the animal in there care then i dont think they should be keeping it!!


 
that's the most rediculous thing i've ever had the misfortune to read.


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## bosc888 (Jun 3, 2007)

Meko said:


> that's the most rediculous thing i've ever had the misfortune to read.


agreed


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## naz_pixie (Oct 6, 2008)

Meko said:


> that's the most rediculous thing i've ever had the misfortune to read.


 well i should have quessed you would have something small minded and rude to say! and its not.. think about it, there is so much confusion about around common names royals/ball pythons ect ect an animal has speices name for a reason.. because taht is what the animal is!!! okay common names are as the name suggests "common" but it still leads to confusion, what with some species haveing so many of them!! and i certainly dont think its ridiculous to say that you shouldnt be keeping an animal if you dont know or atleast cant even be botherd to learn, what its actual name is!!!


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## naz_pixie (Oct 6, 2008)

Meko said:


> that's the most rediculous thing i've ever had the misfortune to read.


 well i should have quessed you would have something small minded and rude to say! and its not.. think about it, there is so much confusion about around common names royals/ball pythons ect ect an animal has speices name for a reason.. because taht is what the animal is!!! okay common names are as the name suggests "common" but it still leads to confusion, what with some species haveing so many of them!! and i certainly dont think its ridiculous to say that you shouldnt be keeping an animal if you dont know or atleast cant even be botherd to learn, what its actual name is!!! im not saying you have to use the scientific name but for the perpous of research care ect shoudl atleast learn it!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Dave-Flames said:


> Thats just stupid though.. noone will have "a green snake" on a label.. it will be labelled in most cases by its common name..


Green Tree Snake
Green Vine Snake (I know several species with this common name - _Oxybelis fulgidus_, _Gonyosoma oxycephala_, _Ahaetulla nasuta_, _Ahaetulla prasina_... so which Green Vine Snake is it?)
Rough Green Snake
Green Ratsnake
Smooth Green Snake
Green Catsnake

What a newbie keeper - who often thinks of snakes as "breeds" rather than "species" - is most likely to remember is "green snake". Some of these are pretty good snakes for a beginner - and some of them are not.

For that matter, what species is a "blue-tongued skink" ? 



bosc888 said:


> never been in a rep shop that displays scientific names & we travel to quite a few,


Tyrannosaurus Pets in Leeds.
Snakes & Adders in Sheffield.
I'm pretty sure (and it's been three years since I've been) that Leaping Lizards in York does.
I'm pretty sure Shropshire Exotics does.

Note: It's amazing how many people are picking on the "Wow, Ssthisto and Onissarle are anal-retentive and want scientific names on all animals" and sorta seem to have missed *THERE ARE CRESTIE TOEPRINTS BURNED ONTO THE LIGHTBULBS*

Oh, yeah, and a three-foot arboreal lizard can live in a three-foot-long standard-proportioned vivarium for its entire life, too. Funny how we decided months ago that because we can't do a 4 X 2 X 4 MINIMUM cage for a frillie, that it would be irresponsible for us to get one.



> as for conditions animals are being kept in how often do people come on here complaining about a shop but say nothing to the owner or staff,you should have the courage to speek up & voice your concerns instead of rushing home to write an essay:whistling2:


Ah, so you'd go in guns blazing, would you?

I'd rather make sure that I AM correct that things are wrong (i.e. asking folk on here "are we overreacting, are things actually OK and we're just anal-retentive, overcautious or full of crap") BEFORE I go mouthing off to staff. You know, I do plan to send the shop a written letter explaining what is wrong with their setups and their advice - and what should be done to fix it. I may suggest adding scientific names to their caging but I won't list that as a "something wrong" (we didn't above, either - we listed it as a point of note) but more as a "something that can be done even better."

To be perfectly honest, this isn't a generalist pet shop. This is a reptile specialist that new keepers should be able to trust to give them good advice and lead by example - and they should damn well KNOW what they're doing wrong.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

naz_pixie said:


> well i should have quessed you would have something small minded and rude to say! and its not.. think about it, there is so much confusion about around common names royals/ball pythons ect ect an animal has speices name for a reason.. because taht is what the animal is!!! okay common names are as the name suggests "common" but it still leads to confusion, what with some species haveing so many of them!! and i certainly dont think its ridiculous to say that you shouldnt be keeping an animal if you dont know or atleast cant even be botherd to learn, what its actual name is!!!


Couldn't disagree more. What confusion between royal/ball pythons? There are two common names for this species and looking up either would give you the info you needed. I couldn't tell you the species name of any of mine.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

its not 'common' name. It's its name, the other is its latin name and seeing as we don't speak latin as a first language its not important to know the latin name of what you already own.

for the purpose of research you should know what you're researching whether it's the common name or the latin name and research it properly. It definately doesn't mean that if you don't know its latin name you shouldn't own it.

a leopard gecko is a leopard gecko and all leopard geckos require the same care - therefore you don't NEED to know its latin name,
a royal python / ball python, again is the same and they require the same care as each other.

yep, when you're getting to some of the rarer / lesser known reptiles then the latin name can help to narrow down to exactly what it is you want or what you need to research.


oh, and by saying you thought i'd have something small minded and rude to say was both small minded AND rude... so well done.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

LiamRatSnake said:


> Couldn't disagree more. What confusion between royal/ball pythons? There are two common names for this species and looking up either would give you the info you needed. *I couldn't tell you the species name of any of mine*.


 
you're as much as a disgrace to reptile keeping as i am then. I suggest you send them all back to the jungle.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

Meko said:


> you're as much as a disgrace to reptile keeping as i am then. I suggest you send them all back to the jungle.


:lol2:We're disgusting I know. Obviously because we don't know the Latin names of our animals all our books and research are invalid because we could have the wrong info. Obviously when I searched corn snakes into Google when I first thought of getting a snake I ran the risk of learning about the construction of a barn in Surrey instead of a corn snake, just because I didn't search the Latin name. You search corn snake in google and I bet you get twice the amount of caresheets than searching the scientific name.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

LiamRatSnake said:


> Couldn't disagree more. What confusion between royal/ball pythons? There are two common names for this species and looking up either would give you the info you needed. I couldn't tell you the species name of any of mine.


Actually, my concern is not with one species that has two common names - my concern is when the same common name is applied to multiple and VERY DIFFERENT species.

A Green Vine Snake (_Gonyosoma oxycephalum_ - also known as a "red tailed racer", from Vietnam, rodent and bird eater) is very different in care and feeding to a Green Vine Snake (_Ahaetulla prasina_ - also called a long-nosed whip snake, from India and primarily a lizard/amphibian eater) is very different in care and feeding to a Green Vine Snake (_Oxybelis fulgidus_ - South American rodent-eater). 

And the care of a Blue-tongued Skink (_Tiliqua gigas_) is different to the care of a Blue-Tongued Skink (_Tiliqua scincoides_). The former is more tropical and needs more humidity; the latter is the Australian species and prefers it drier.

And if a shop can't label something with the correct common names to begin with (Texas Everglades Ratsnake? Those are two different subspecies! Florida California Kingsnake? Again, two subspecies! In both cases, the subspecies are also separated by a few hundred to a thousand miles, too) then where does that leave the new buyer if we're expecting them to research common names instead?

Meko: I saw a "Fat Tailed Leopard Gecko" in another shop last week that certainly DOES need different care to a leopard gecko... because it was in fact NOT a leopard gecko at all. It was an African Fat-Tail, which needs higher humidity. Vietnamese Leopard Geckos / Chinese Leopard Geckos ALSO need different care because surprise, surprise, they're not actually leopard geckos either.

I've also seen a "Snow California Corn" that was only one of the three things listed (California kingsnake, albino) ... boy, that'd be funny if it was cohoused with a newbie's corn snake.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

Google
"Corn snake care" *218,000
*"Elaphe Guttata care" *7,980

*I implore you to find me one of them which isn't about corn snakes.


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## naz_pixie (Oct 6, 2008)

Meko said:


> its not 'common' name. It's its name, the other is its latin name and seeing as we don't speak latin as a first language its not important to know the latin name of what you already own.
> 
> for the purpose of research you should know what you're researching whether it's the common name or the latin name and research it properly. *It definately doesn't mean that if you don't know its latin name you shouldn't own it.*
> 
> ...



if you read bak i didnt say you shouldnt own it if you dont know the latin name!! i said it shouldnt put of newbies because you should ATLEAST BE PREPARED TO LEARN IT!! i dont know them all off by heart but i do have them written down.. i never said u deffinatly shouldnt own it if you dont know the name. i said you shouldnt own something if you not prepared to learn teh name to do so.. this if you read properly was aimed at what would happen if newbies had to learn the scientific names because these are what were used in shops!!!


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## naz_pixie (Oct 6, 2008)

Meko said:


> its not 'common' name. It's its name, the other is its latin name and seeing as we don't speak latin as a first language its not important to know the latin name of what you already own.
> 
> for the purpose of research you should know what you're researching whether it's the common name or the latin name and research it properly. *It definately doesn't mean that if you don't know its latin name you shouldn't own it.*
> 
> ...



if you read bak i didnt say you shouldnt own it if you dont know the latin name!! i said it shouldnt put of newbies because you should ATLEAST BE PREPARED TO LEARN IT!! i dont know them all off by heart but i do have them written down.. i never said u deffinatly shouldnt own it if you dont know the name. i said you shouldnt own something if you not prepared to learn teh name to do so.. this if you read properly was aimed at what would happen if newbies had to learn the scientific names because these are what were used in shops!!!

im not saying somebody is a bad owner if they dont know the latin! but i do belive the latin names should be used more yes.. especialy in shops!!

my apologies for all the double posts.. my internet is haveing a fit!!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Liam, please find for me a caresheet for a Florida Cali Kingsnake. I'd like to know how to take care of one - there was one in the shop.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

naz_pixie said:


> if you read bak i didnt say you shouldnt own it if you dont know the latin name!! i said it shouldnt put of newbies because you should ATLEAST BE PREPARED TO LEARN IT!! i dont know them all off by heart but i do have them written down.. i never said u deffinatly shouldnt own it if you dont know the name. i said you shouldnt own something if you not prepared to learn teh name to do so.. this if you read properly was aimed at what would happen if newbies had to learn the scientific names because these are what were used in shops!!!


yes you did



naz_pixie said:


> and as for saying scientific names would put off a newbie.. *if they cant even be bothered to atleast try and learn the correct name for the animal in there care then i dont think they should be keeping it!*!


see, there.


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## Blackecho (Jun 30, 2008)

Agree with Meko, it was a ridiculous statement that you should try and learn latin names to be allowed to own them. I'm sure there are lots of everyday items with latin names...

To the OP, I have read a lot worse reports on Pet shops, but they certainly have room to improve.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> And if a shop can't label something with the correct common names to begin with (Texas Everglades Ratsnake? Those are two different subspecies! Florida California Kingsnake? Again, two subspecies! In both cases, the subspecies are also separated by a few hundred to a thousand miles, too) then where does that leave the new buyer if we're expecting them to research common names instead?
> 
> Meko: I saw a "Fat Tailed Leopard Gecko" in another shop last week that certainly DOES need different care to a leopard gecko... because it was in fact NOT a leopard gecko at all. It was an African Fat-Tail, which needs higher humidity. Vietnamese Leopard Geckos / Chinese Leopard Geckos ALSO need different care because surprise, surprise, they're not actually leopard geckos either.
> 
> I've also seen a "Snow California Corn" that was only one of the three things listed (California kingsnake, albino) ... boy, that'd be funny if it was cohoused with a newbie's corn snake.


the problem with this is... if they can't get their common names right, who knows if they'd get the scientific name right. 

With the fat tailed leopard gecko; it's a fat tailed gecko so would they give the scientific name for that, or because its a fat tailed *leopard gecko*, would they give the latin name for that?


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## Dave-Flames (Sep 20, 2006)

Meko said:


> the problem with this is... if they can't get their common names right, who knows if they'd get the scientific name right.
> 
> With the fat tailed leopard gecko; it's a fat tailed gecko so would they give the scientific name for that, or because its a fat tailed *leopard gecko*, would they give the latin name for that?


Thats my point exactly.. if the shop can't even get the common name correct how do you know that the latin name is correct? 

Thats down to the shop for giving the wrong info and shouldnt be selling animals..


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

i dont want to get into a argument...and am not gonna but thought i would add my view

From what i have read, some are saying there should be latin names in the shop so the buyer knows what the animal is that they are buying. such as hosue geckos...there are so many speices called house geckos and a clever latin name would tell you the excalt speices. Yes thats fair enough and very good.

BUT i thought we discouraged people from impulse buying. If i want a new animal i locate a breeder, but say someone wanted to buy a tokay gecko from a pet shop, they would go in after there research and buy one or ask the shop when will they be able to get them in.

So buy doing your research prior to getting the animal your gonna know what you need before hand. Whereas if your needing the latin name to be on the enclosure and as you dont no what the animal is as theres so many common names or little info with its common name then doesnt that mean your impluse buying?

if i went into a shop and saw a snake and didnt no what the name was weather it be latin nor common then it would matter as i wouldnt be buying it. if i saw it and wanted it then it would be impluse buying.

But someone thats done there research and knows what there after will see it and know stright away what it is.

same as a newbie will go in and ask what a leopard gecko is, whereas a more experinced keeper will already no that.

Also i cant speak latin at all...i no the latin names yes BUT i cant speak them and when i try to say leopard gecko in latin it sounds more like ALI G
also i cant spell the latin names either as i am dylexia...so does that make me any less of a good keeper?


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## oakelm (Jan 14, 2009)

I must say the latin name/common name debate I am not getting into. But unguarded bulbs I would have said something on the spot anyone with a bit of common sense would know its wrong, especially with anything that climbs.
To the OP, I would personally send them an entire list of the issues you have seen, address it to the manager of the store that way you have at least tried to help them create a better environment for these reptiles to live in. As just because they have the money to setup a rep shop doesnt actually mean they know everything. Maybe the owner is more of an inverts specialist, you can never presume. If someone stuck a tarantula in front of me and said look after that I honestly wouldnt have a clue.


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## naz_pixie (Oct 6, 2008)

Meko said:


> yes you did
> 
> 
> 
> see, there.



yes i said if the kant be botherd to atleast learn!! if there not prepared to learn!!!!! i was saying it shouyldnt put of newbies bekause they should be prepared to learn it if they had tooo!!!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Meko said:


> the problem with this is... if they can't get their common names right, who knows if they'd get the scientific name right.
> 
> With the fat tailed leopard gecko; it's a fat tailed gecko so would they give the scientific name for that, or because its a fat tailed *leopard gecko*, would they give the latin name for that?


Exactly. But if they don't know the common name's wrong, don't know the scientific names ... then should they be selling the animals at all?


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

can people stop getting hung up on the latin name thing? That was only a minor point, and not one they are very concerned about at that.

Getting hung up on the smallest issue and some people over reaction to it is a tad daft.

The shop sounds disgusting. Much like a few other repitle "specialists" we've been to.

Unfortunately contacting the EHO or similar might not do much, i'm not sure if anyhting listed would contravene the condtions set out in order to get their PSL.

the scientific name is very useful, and essential in advanced reptile keeping That debate though isn't really relevant here.

It's my opinion both scientific and common names should be provided all the time. Mainly because i've seen some of the crazy common names on import and wholesale lists and also because I don't beleive the customer should be treated like they are stupid (scared off by a small label with a latin name? yeah right!).

In cases where shops cannont even be bothered to check they are labeling species correctly by either type of name should be avoided. I'd just never go back. All the other stuff aside (unguarded bulbs etc = unforgivable IMO) the simple fact they CBA to check they even have the animal labelled as the correct species says enough about the shop/staff to instantly make my mind up.


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## Onissarle (Mar 1, 2007)

> Nice to know its not just me that does that, I tend to play dumb (well dumber ) than I actually am the first time I visit a new shop, depending on the reaction I get is whether or not I go back


Exactly, I'm also glad I'm not the only one. Usually, as I like what I hear, we end up chatting about things and talking about our collections. It's always interesting to see that moment of realisation on someone's face when they realise that you actually understand what you're talking about. 

Normally, we wouldn't hesitate to do something that 'breaks cover' (like asking intelligent questions about a venomoid cobra in one shop, wow, that was a beautiful snake!). The conditions in that shop made me so uneasy, and some of the things they said surprised me so much that I didn't want to let on I really knew everything that was wrong with it - I couldn't help feeling I'd end up in a shouting match with them.



> far too long for me to read it all but a couple of points i spotted:


At the risk of sounding rude... If you either lack the attention span or simply can't be bothered to read the entire post and think about the issues and context raised before replying, please don't post. I know that trolling threads to start up arguments over nit-picking small points is a lot easier and more fun than thinking about what you're writing and replying in a relevant manner but it isn't constructive to the topic.



> as for conditions animals are being kept in how often do people come on here complaining about a shop but say nothing to the owner or staff,you should have the courage to speek up & voice your concerns instead of rushing home to write an essay


Been there, done that. Have you? To date, I have about a 33% success rate when politely voicing my concerns and offering constructive advice. Mostly you just get ignored and occasionally the indignant response you get makes you think you've insulted their mother's honour. That's mostly from general pet shops that don't know what they're doing. Specialist shops who actively tell people they know what they're doing get their hackles up much faster and it can get quite threatening, especially when you are outnumbered by the staff.



> Thats down to the shop for giving the wrong info and shouldnt be selling animals..


Very true. If they don't know what it is, they can't give proper care advice for it and therefore should not be selling it. When a good shop isn't sure what something is, they ask other specialists who might know (we've been asked our opinions on mis-labelled or mystery animals by a couple of shops in the past) and would never dream of sticking an incorrect label on just to sell it.

I've stood and watched an experienced shop owner opening up his latest delivery from a wholesaler and re-labelling retics as the correct localities because the wholesaler had it wrong on the lists. That's the sort of experience and knowledge I like to see in people claiming to be _specialist_ shops. I don't have the same expectations about the level of knowledge or experience from generalist pet shops that happen to stock a handful of reptiles.



> To the OP, I would personally send them an entire list of the issues you have seen, address it to the manager of the store that way you have at least tried to help them create a better environment for these reptiles to live in.


Thankyou, that's very constructive and is exactly what we're going to do.



> can people stop getting hung up on the latin name thing? That was only a minor point, and not one they are very concerned about at that
> 
> Getting hung up on the smallest issue and some people over reaction to it is a tad daft.


Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou Mason. I'm glad to see some people have read through my post and thought about the points in context. I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry about the direction this thread has been dragged in. It's also a little depressing to see that when people stop stirring up an argument over a minor footnote, the activity on the thread drastically drops. It seems arguing for fun is more important than animal welfare and the quality of advice being given to inexperienced keepers who need it.


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