# No Shop Sales



## TSKA Rory Matier

Currently l am reviewing a piece of legislation backed by the RSPCA concerning the Regulation of animals for sale.

How do you feel about this sort of thing?

Please note that these are proposals that are being asked to be considered.

1] prohibiting the keeping for sale of mammals in shops
2] prohibiting the sale of mammals in shops

So you can basically see what these two suggestions alone would mean, yes?

This would mean that any mammal species, reptile species, amphibian species, avian species, aquatic species etc could not just be held in the shop but also could not even be sold from the shop.

So shops selling livestock would cease to exist instantly.

How would you feel about this?

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby


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## Fangio

Britain is a nation of pet lovers. I highly doubt they'd ban all pet shops selling animals somehow. There'd be a riot!


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## jav07

reptiles are not mammals:lol2:


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## SnakeBreeder

Maybe reptiles are not mammals but if it is passed how long do you think it will be before all animals are banned.
Stephen.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

Would not worry mate, it also includes reptiles, just my error of not including them, so dont panic, dont want you to think reps have been left out


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## Chris Newman

In 1999 the RSPCA wrote to every council in the UK are stated: “we are opposed to the sale of animals from pet shops”. The document emerged during the Animal Welfare Bill, initially the RSPCA denied they had ever made such a statement until a copy of the letter was produced, amusingly with the signature at the bottom of the letter by the very person denying that such a letter had ever been written!

The RSPCA have been asked numerous times if they would wish to retract this position statement, but they have declined. In the latest version of the Policy Document, the RSPCA have strengthened there anti animal keeping stance by stating they are opposed to the breeding of wild animals as pets.


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## This is my Clone

So the RSPCA want to un-do 4-5000 years of Human history? Probably alot more than that!


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## Guest

EddieLizzard said:


> So the RSPCA want to un-do 4-5000 years of Human history? Probably alot more than that!


There like the politically correct numptys mate they want to "CONTROL" every thing we say and do ,perhaps they should get a real job and leave us to enjoy our lives with what ever pets we desire ..


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## loulou

I may eat my words but.................I really cant see that happening, there would be uproar! there are too many mammal keepers in the uk, I expect a great deal of these mammals are brought from pet shops, such as rabbits, hamsters, mice, rets guinea pigs,gerbils and degus to name a few, then there are industrys replated to it such as food production, distribution and production of toys and foods etc, shop keepers and workers, vets and their associated staff all these would be out of work I expect they would not take that sitting down. then there is the general pet loving public mammals are one of the most diverse pet kept in the uk from your common dog to your more exotic squirrel monkey, i just cannot see them doing it were the public in all these sectors made aware then not only would they lose their support and reputation (well what most people think their reputation is) but they would also lose any influence they think they have. 

TBH if we want to fight the banns they are trying to put in place this proposition is proberly the best thing they could ever do for us as it would pull everyone into the fight as the joe blogs next door who keeps a rabbit and wants to buy another would then be effected, its just our job then to make all these keepers or future keepers (the younger) aware of whats going on behind the scenes with facts and information translated into what can be understood.


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## Snakes r grreat

To be honest, to me it seems to much for the general voting public to accept, or is it???

One thing i have noticed in the last 10 years under the labour government, is that they are very good at wording things to thier advantage, and if that doesnt work, they do it anyway, just look at the EU constitution!!! 

What if this was supported by a campaign from the RSPCA banging on about how much of a problem it is for them involving live animals being sold through pet shops, and that it is in the best interest of the animals, and us as animal lovers to knock it on the head. 

Is it really that unlikely to happen???


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## Athravan

There are several hundred thousand reptiles in the UK - how many hamsters, rabbits, guinea pigs and so forth must there be, surely this would affect not only thousands of businesses (including large pet chains like [email protected] who are not going to sit there and let someone ruin there multi million pound business if they can affect it) but literally - MILLIONS of people.

The RSPCA want a lot of things. They ask for a lot of things. They demand a lot of things. They don't always get what they want.

It would not only put out of business the shops selling pets, but also all the shops that sell pet products, because what's the point in selling animal bedding and hamster food if no one can buy the animals anyway. That's thousands of businesses, poof, as good as bankrupt.

Now I am taking all these threats lately very seriously, I can understand, cause and effect - EU makes a legislation, UK is forced to follow it, I can see the plausability in that.... but as for the RSPCA bankrupting a huge multi million pound a year business sector, as well as losing the current parliament millions of votes, causing millions of complaints, and making history in the world... well, I just don't see what the government would gain from listening to such suggestions. All it will result in is more stress, less time, less money and less votes for the government.

Have you read the amount of legislation written and attempted to pass by PETA and other similar groups in the USA over the last decade?

I like to think our government just isn't that stupid. You can make an argument for banning imports. You can make an argument for licensing exotics. You can make an argument for stopping WC.... but seriously, what sort of convincing argument can they make for taking the pet bunnies and hamsters away from all the kids out there.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*There........*

............... is more chance of something like this happening than most would think. I have only posted up two of the suggestions, there are many , many, and sadly many more that will appear here in this thread.

R
PKL


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## captaincaveman

I'm kinda glad they are sweeping with such a wide brush, if theres an estimated 1million reptile keepers in the UK, you can imagine how many more there would be if you included, birds, mammals, fish etc. The rspca would struggle to get the support for an all out ban, I hope im incorrect in my optomism, but i would be more worried if this was pointed solely at reptiles


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## TSKA Rory Matier

The RSPCA are becoming much more active, and if people recall, l placed up a thread that basically implied that the RSPCA might go for political status and it would be legal.

With that power behind them, plus their actual cash reserve, they can make a very deliberate and yet powerful campaign against us if they chose.

The puzzle pieces are falling now ladies and genetlemen, now the fight for keeper pride will be put to the test.

If we fail then we will not just lose one thing, but many will lose their liveliehoods, passions and over time their collections. 

Rory
PKL


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## captaincaveman

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> The RSPCA are becoming much more active, and if people recall, l placed up a thread that basically implied that the RSPCA might go for political status and it would be legal.
> 
> With that power behind them, plus their actual cash reserve, they can make a very deliberate and yet powerful campaign against us if they chose.
> 
> The puzzle pieces are falling now ladies and genetlemen, now the fight for keeper pride will be put to the test.
> 
> If we fail then we will not just lose one thing, but many will lose their liveliehoods, passions and over time their collections.
> 
> Rory
> PKL


Is there any link to this claim? i seriously cant imagine the rspca trying to fight the amount of people they would, if they went for an all out ban, it must be well over 60% of households with pets in one form or another


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## Fixx

Athravan said:


> There are several hundred thousand reptiles in the UK - how many hamsters, rabbits, guinea pigs and so forth must there be, surely this would affect not only thousands of businesses (including large pet chains like [email protected] who are not going to sit there and let someone ruin there *multi million pound business* if they can affect it) but literally - MILLIONS of people.
> 
> The RSPCA want a lot of things. They ask for a lot of things. They demand a lot of things. They don't always get what they want.
> 
> It would not only put out of business the shops selling pets, but also all the shops that sell pet products, because what's the point in selling animal bedding and hamster food if no one can buy the animals anyway. That's thousands of businesses, poof, as good as bankrupt.
> 
> Now I am taking all these threats lately very seriously, I can understand, cause and effect - EU makes a legislation, UK is forced to follow it, I can see the plausability in that.... but as for the RSPCA bankrupting a *huge multi million pound a year* business sector, as well as losing the current parliament millions of votes, causing millions of complaints, and making history in the world... well, I just don't see what the government would gain from listening to such suggestions. All it will result in is more stress, less time, less money and less votes for the government.
> 
> Have you read the amount of legislation written and attempted to pass by PETA and other similar groups in the USA over the last decade?
> 
> I like to think our government just isn't that stupid. You can make an argument for banning imports. You can make an argument for licensing exotics. You can make an argument for stopping WC.... but seriously, what sort of convincing argument can they make for taking the pet bunnies and hamsters away from all the kids out there.


It's more than multi million Athravan, an estimated £4 Billion in 2005 was spent on pets in the UK.


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## Snakes r grreat

Athravan said:


> There are several hundred thousand reptiles in the UK - how many hamsters, rabbits, guinea pigs and so forth must there be, surely this would affect not only thousands of businesses (including large pet chains like [email protected] who are not going to sit there and let someone ruin there multi million pound business if they can affect it) but literally - MILLIONS of people.
> 
> The RSPCA want a lot of things. They ask for a lot of things. They demand a lot of things. They don't always get what they want.
> 
> It would not only put out of business the shops selling pets, but also all the shops that sell pet products, because what's the point in selling animal bedding and hamster food if no one can buy the animals anyway. That's thousands of businesses, poof, as good as bankrupt.
> 
> Now I am taking all these threats lately very seriously, I can understand, cause and effect - EU makes a legislation, UK is forced to follow it, I can see the plausability in that.... but as for the RSPCA bankrupting a huge multi million pound a year business sector, as well as losing the current parliament millions of votes, causing millions of complaints, and making history in the world... well, I just don't see what the government would gain from listening to such suggestions. All it will result in is more stress, less time, less money and less votes for the government.
> 
> Have you read the amount of legislation written and attempted to pass by PETA and other similar groups in the USA over the last decade?
> 
> I like to think our government just isn't that stupid. You can make an argument for banning imports. You can make an argument for licensing exotics. You can make an argument for stopping WC.... but seriously, what sort of convincing argument can they make for taking the pet bunnies and hamsters away from all the kids out there.


I didnt mean to imply that the RSPCA would be behind this directly, but they might take the opportunity to encourage the ban with their own campaign.


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## captaincaveman

Fixx said:


> It's more than multi million Athravan, an estimated £4 Billion in 2005 was spent on pets in the UK.


I also read that theres an estimated 1million exotic keepers, which would put the exotics into the millions of animals and not the hundreds of thousands


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## RoninUK

If the RSPCA are foolish enough to pursue this they will find themselves in a fight with far more powerful bodies - the multinational companies that produce the major pet food brands. They will not allow a multi billion pound industry to come under threat and once they weigh in the case is won. Economic issues will always trump "moral/ethical" ones for any Government.


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu

Any links or proof?

Not to mention all the loss of income the UK would lose in general aswell as all the businesses, what about all the workers for pet companies etc being made redundant, then we'll probably have heightened taxes to cover their backs while theyre out of work. 

To be honest, it would destroy everything and finding employment would be made impossible


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## Athravan

captaincaveman said:


> I also read that theres an estimated 1million exotic keepers, which would put the exotics into the millions of animals and not the hundreds of thousands


Wow.. well those statistics make it even less likely to happen.

How much tax including import tax and sales tax does the government stand to lose if all these pet shops are suddenly crippled? The government watches it's own back first and foremost.


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## darkdan99

exactly. 

1 million reptile keepers would EASILY equate to 10-20 million reptiles. 

Given the number of reptiles the average keeper houses/cares for. 

As for pets, i would say that somthing like 80% of the british populas owns a mammal. (guesstimate) 

There is no way on earth, no way whatsoever that they could ban the selling of animals. 

They are already trying and as a result it is slowly slipping more and more underground...

I can buy more or less what i want animal wise, and get virtually any animal in the hobby without question. Alot of these would be CB/WC CITES1 without A10 papers, DWA on the quiet, WC from various conutries that dont permit it. (Aus, Brazil, UK, Europe...)

All this goes on under raps. If it becomes illegal, shops will close, and move into residential properties. 

Drugs are illegal, but there is a self regulating industry where they are bought and sold. That is the worst they can do. 

IF they do illegalise my hobby, love and passion then I for one will remain keeping, and I will also remain selling animals. 

There are always loopholes to jump through. And i will find them.


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## SuperTed

as ignorant as i may sound i reckon theres about a 5% chance of this happening :lol2:


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## Snakes r grreat

RoninUK said:


> If the RSPCA are foolish enough to pursue this they will find themselves in a fight with far more powerful bodies - the multinational companies that produce the major pet food brands. They will not allow a multi billion pound industry to come under threat and once they weigh in the case is won. Economic issues will always trump "moral/ethical" ones for any Government.


Firstly, this was a discussion on banning *shop* sales, not private sales, yet!

As for the 'industry', the problem is that at the moment, they are too scared to stand up to them, as it will bring them the wrath of the anti's, so as sympathetic as they are, they stay quiet, they are all aware of the problem already, believe me! So they stay quiet at the moment, new laws are introduced, they go along with them on the whole. Then the EU/government move to introduce a law that they dont like, they will stand up at some point, but how much have they lost already, how much damaged will they have done to themselves already, and how hard will they find it to stand up.

Also, bear in mind that a company like Pedigree Chum are owned by the same people who own Mars, they are in the US, they do a thriving trade around the globe, do they really need to fight a battle for the UK, when they have so much more going on elsewhere??? This goes for many other Pet Supplies, most of the major ones are not UK owned!


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## Dan

The RSPCA wont really push for this - it would have a direct effect on their pocket.
No sales means no numpties buying meaning no need for rescues. No rescues means no adverts and by default, no cash.

On top of this the funds lost by the government through various liscenses, inspections etc.

The uproar caused by vets alone would give them cause for concern as they would certainly withdraw support through financial repercussions.

This may well have been stated by the RSPCA, i have no doubts about them saying this but they would not push for it. Above are just a few of the obvious repercussions and there are MANY more. I would suggest this has been done/said in order to keep the openly AR groups happy.

Sorry, but while i understand the reasoning behind much of your posting Rory i can not help but see this as scaremongering. I know it is a very fine line you tread in what you post on a day to day basis but for me this is well and truly beyond the mark. Posting like this will only serve to alienate you further and cause yet more of the apathy you are trying so hard to fight. 
You haven't learned from the mistakes the FBH made in the posting everything technique they employed. You are scaring your target away and you need to stop that pretty quick if you want to achieve anything. 

Constantly forcing an issue that people don't want to accept DOES NOT WORK. Stop going round in circles and use your collective heads. For a fresh approach this whole charade is looking more and more like a repeat of years gone by. 
Don't ask me what to do, i am only one person rather than a collective or commitee. Not to mention my ideas usually aren't viable because someone else told you so or you underestimate the group you are working with. While that last sentence does sound sour it isn't meant as such, but whether you take it that way or not is up to you


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## captaincaveman

Ok these are old stats from 2004 and dont include reptiles, but this is a study done by the pet food manufacturers society

In the UK, approximately *1 in 2* households own a pet 
(*52.3%*)

In *2004* there were:

*6.1 million* cat owning households
*5.2 million* dog owning households
*4.1 million* fish owning households
*1.96 million* rodent owning households
*1.39 million* bird owning households

and from the fbh in 2004



> Today there are in excess of one million homes in the UK keeping over 5 million pet reptiles


and as reptile keeping is so quickly growing i wouldn't be surprised if reptiles out strip dogs now


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## SuperTed

Ok now ive seen the stats i reckon theres a 1% chance of it happening! :no1:


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## Chris Newman

Back in November 2005 at the OATA conference I said:

*Unless the pet industry and keeping organisations recognise and respond to the threat: - *

*Within a decade retailing of pets from pet shops will be consigned to history –*

*Within 2 decades keeping of pets/ companion animals will be all but extinct.*

I would suggest this is still an accurate forecast. The secondary legislation concerning Pet Vending (sale of pets) will start early next year; undoubtedly there will be a call for the prohibition on the sale of cats and dogs from petshops. The reason being due to the large number of aforementioned that need to be rehomed each year, which is true, there are large numbers of dogs and cats in need of rehoming each year. However, is this the fault of petshops? – the facts are quite startling, over the passed decade the number of pets shops that sell cats and dogs has declined by some 90%, yet the numbers of cats and dogs that need rehoming has increased by over 30%, clearly the sale of such animals from petshops is not the primary cause of such animals needing rehoming! Nevertheless, this has not stopped the ‘nutcase’ brigade from championing this as the cause.

If we see a prohibition on the sale of cats and dogs from petshops would it end there? No, clearly not, the RSPCA are now championing rabbit as a major problem, yet again citing petshops as the cause of the problems. Will we see a prohibition on the sale of animals from petshops overnight, as we may see in other countries, no. What we will see is a chipping away at the peripheries, cats and dogs today, rabbits tomorrow and who knows for the day after! 

Fantasy, well 90% of petshops have stopped selling cats and dogs, did we see a big outcry against this?- no. So why will we see such an outcry if rabbits are prohibited from sale tomorrow, or reptiles the day after?


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## captaincaveman

Chris Newman said:


> Back in November 2005 at the OATA conference I said:
> 
> *Unless the pet industry and keeping organisations recognise and respond to the threat: - *
> 
> *Within a decade retailing of pets from pet shops will be consigned to history –*
> 
> *Within 2 decades keeping of pets/ companion animals will be all but extinct.*
> 
> I would suggest this is still an accurate forecast. The secondary legislation concerning Pet Vending (sale of pets) will start early next year; undoubtedly there will be a call for the prohibition on the sale of cats and dogs from petshops. The reason being due to the large number of aforementioned that need to be rehomed each year, which is true, there are large numbers of dogs and cats in need of rehoming each year. However, is this the fault of petshops? – the facts are quite startling, over the passed decade the number of pets shops that sell cats and dogs has declined by some 90%, yet the numbers of cats and dogs that need rehoming has increased by over 30%, clearly the sale of such animals from petshops is not the primary cause of such animals needing rehoming! Nevertheless, this has not stopped the ‘nutcase’ brigade from championing this as the cause.
> 
> If we see a prohibition on the sale of cats and dogs from petshops would it end there? No, clearly not, the RSPCA are now championing rabbit as a major problem, yet again citing petshops as the cause of the problems. Will we see a prohibition on the sale of animals from petshops overnight, as we may see in other countries, no. What we will see is a chipping away at the peripheries, cats and dogs today, rabbits tomorrow and who knows for the day after!
> 
> Fantasy, well 90% of petshops have stopped selling cats and dogs, did we see a big outcry against this?- no. So why will we see such an outcry if rabbits are prohibited from sale tomorrow, or reptiles the day after?


 
My argument isn't about the pet shop side, but about the sureness of a total ban on pets within your timespan, to be honest, i reckon the reason that there wasn't any outcry when dogs and cats were stopped in pet shops, is that the majority of people never did get cats and dogs from petshops, most people(or most that i know of) always go directly to the breeder, especially for KC registered dogs, and thinking about it, im my short lifetime of 33years, i personally dont think ive ever seen cats or dogs in pet shops ever

Now i believe if this was to happen with reptiles, amphibians, inverts, birds, mammals and fish there would be a totally different reaction, as that is the other side of the coin where the majorityis purchased from petshops


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## captaincaveman

Sorrychris, but can youtell me where this information iscoming from? ive been looking on the defra site about the second legislation proposals concerning pet shops and can only find this



> Pet shops should continue to be licensed with renewal every three years rather than annually, with inspections on a risk managed basis.
> 
> 
> 
> Local Authorities will issue licences and will have powers to inspect, and to withhold or revoke licences.
> 
> 
> 
> Businesses that use internet sites for selling should be licensed in the same way as conventional pet shops.
> 
> 
> 
> Pet shops and commercial premises where animals are kept prior to sale will be subject to a code of practice, approved by Parliament and enforced by the Local Authority.
> 
> 
> 
> A member of the management of a pet shop or animal internet selling site should have a suitable animal welfare qualification (for new entrants only).
> 
> 
> Written advice addressing the welfare needs of the animal being sold will be made available to buyers at pet shops and on internet selling sites.


Defra, UK - Animal Health and Welfare - Animal Welfare - Animal Welfare Act

and on pet shops and pet fairs, even pet fares, being a hotbed with certain groups, seems to just want to remove buisness and dont even have plans to licence these events let alone ban them for breeders selling excess stock



> There is some confusion over the interpretation of existing law about the licensing of pet fairs. In addition, some people have concerns about welfare standards at these events.
> Because of these two factors, the governments is proposing to modernise the law by prohibiting the sale of animals, where this is part of a business, to members of the public at pet fairs.
> However, we also propose to make exceptions to this prohibition in the case of koi carp shows, racing pigeon sales and poultry sales. These types of events will be licensed by local authorities under regulations to be made under the Animal Welfare Act.
> Those events where there is either no selling of animals to members of the public; or where there is selling of animals but where it is not in the course of a business, such as hobbyists selling excess stock, will continue to take place without the requirement to be licensed.
> We believe that the revised proposals on pet fairs together with the proposals to raise the standards of pet vending generally, as well as the introduction of the welfare offence for companion animals, provide the best protection yet for animals at pet fairs.


Defra, UK - Animal Health and Welfare - Animal Welfare - Animal Welfare Act


Maybe im missing something totally, ive never been brilliant looking over legal documents as the wording is always a bit mis-leading, but i cant see where abouts these proposals are?

Don't get me wrong, im not doubting your convictions/fears but i'd personally like to read it myself/print it out


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## UrbanGeckoWarrior

The RSPCA are all nutters anyway. I bet half of them dont even own pets.


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## sparkle

ok just a thought...

if the rspca finally BAN all animal sales and keeping like some people think they want to or will... ( i dont mean with these suggestions I mean simply in general in whatever time frame)

wont that make them parasitic to their own host..

with no animals to protect per say.. they wil become obsolete.. and pointless...

then what happens??


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## SiUK

the RSPCA cant ban animal keeping, they can just suggest things to the government which in turn may or may not ever come to anything, some of their ideas are insane, your right with no pets they would be no more, nothing to moan about no cushy jobs with large salaries, they would be screwed, they have to come up with hair brained ideas to get paid.


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## Chris Newman

Captaincaveman

What you have listed are the government draft proposals for the Pet Vending legislation, not what the legislation will actually be. The Public Consolation will start early next year, and then we will start to see what see what creeps out of the woodwork, remember the devil is in the detail!

If we see prohibition on the sale of cats and dogs from petshops, as you suggest there will not be much of a public outcry, most will be supportive. However, bear in mind this is secondary legislation, not primary, so can easily been amended. So today cats and dogs are banned, what next – rabbits. The RSPCA have been championing rabbits as a major problem, so let’s ban them as well, what next, bearded dragons! There are huge numbers sold, so the RSPCA will see them as a major issue – so on and so forth.

Back to cats and dogs, so we are content they have been removed from sale from petshops due to the huge number that need rehoming. Well as the records has shown the number of the aforementioned sold from petshops has plummeted, so clearly sales from petshops were not the primary driver, so it must be breeders, so lets regulate them. This already happens with dogs; keep and breed more then 3 females (as I recall) and you are suppose to be licensed by the Local Authority. At the moment this is laxly enforced, watch for a significant turnaround over the next year of so. Expect this to be extended to other species in the near future as well.

What you need to consider is that you do not need to ban something to prohibit it; you simply raise the bar to the height where people concede defeat. Under the new Act the welfare of animals is underpinned by compliance with the relevant Code of Practice, at the moment there are no codes, therefore people have no defence! I am dealing with current prosecutions by the RSPCA that are quit simply shocking. Our worst fears under the AWA have come true in that the RSPCA now enjoy total power without any accountability, but that is a separate issue.

Let’s go back to our Codes of Practice, which as yet don’t exist. If we take snakes as an example, RSPCA demands are the vivarium must be longer than the snake, i.e. it must be able to lay outstretched and not touch either end of the vivarium – how many keepers of snakes have them in vivariuns that are longer than the snake? Perhaps someone could start a poll on that as I think the results would be very interesting!


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## captaincaveman

But where is this legislation? i cant find it??


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu

captaincaveman said:


> But where is this legislation? i cant find it??


Agreed, every argument that is raised on this section never seems to give a solid link or proof. Yes the information is worrying but is it truthful?


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## Chris Newman

captaincaveman said:


> But where is this legislation? i cant find it??


What legislation?


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu

Chris Newman said:


> What legislation?


Basically we want to know where your getting your information from?


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## Chris Newman

Akua_Ko_Nalu said:


> Basically we want to know where your getting your information from?


As I said in my original response:

*What you have listed are the government draft proposals for the Pet Vending legislation, not what the legislation will actually be. The Public Consolation will start early next year, and then we will start to see what see what creeps out of the woodwork, remember the devil is in the detail!*

In other words, what government has proposed as draft legislation under AWA, is not necessarily what will happen, the whole point of a consolation!

Bear in my the RSPCA position; “we are opposed to the sale of animals from petshosp” - this statement has never been withdrawn!

Further, here are the demands from the Animal Protection Agency under the secondary legislation: 
http://www.apa.org.uk/pdfs/six-point-plan-for-pet-shops-factsheet.pdf

As yet Animal Aid have not made there demands public yet, as far as I am aware. Nevertheless, they will be inline with that of the Animal Protection Agency, RSPCA and indeed that of IFAW. All of the aforementioned are hugely wealthy and powerful political lobby groups.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

mmmmmmmmmm,

Make a post, go away for a day and wham! Must read and catch up, to think they were only two of the proposals.


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## ratboy

EDIT: Irrelavent to this thread at the moment


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Biggest problem you seem to have*

Dan, 

*You haven't learned from the mistakes the FBH made in the posting everything technique they employed. You are scaring your target away and you need to stop that pretty quick if you want to achieve anything.* 

First and foremost - quit with referring to the problems the FBH made and referring them in a cross checked manner back to me.


Second, 

*Constantly forcing an issue that people don't want to accept DOES NOT WORK. Stop going round in circles and use your collective heads. For a fresh approach this whole charade is looking more and more like a repeat of years gone by. *

Whether keepers want to accept what is written will always come down to the reader. However to continue with your own charade of talking about what the people will and will not accept becomes tiresome even to me. The amount of times you have in some ways berated the intelligence of the viewer is a tad more than belittling to them.

The reader will 'read, and then try to discern what is being written and then either walk away or question'.the ability to question is what is important, - question, challenge, etc' now that is healthy. It shows that irrelevant to something being believed or not believed means that people are interested in knowing.


Third

*Sorry, but while i understand the reasoning behind much of your posting Rory i can not help but see this as scaremongering. I know it is a very fine line you tread in what you post on a day to day basis but for me this is well and truly beyond the mark. Posting like this will only serve to alienate you further and cause yet more of the apathy you are trying so hard to fight.* 

Like it or not Dan, this legislation is going to be a hard one. With the emphasis on retail, breeders, basically all sellers will come under the hammer.

That means, you, me, everybody will be affected.

This is one post that needs to be read and fully understood what those oppose are trying to achieve and it is due to the apathy that restrictions will be imposed and unless keepers stand up and become accountable, then things like this will only continue to get worse on all vending fronts.

Fourth

*The uproar caused by vets alone would give them cause for concern as they would certainly withdraw support through financial repercussions.*

Really, in this same legislation the proposals are at such a level that they go further with:

Animals would only be able to be sold by the following:

Animal Shelters
Vets
Registered Breeders

So perhaps the vets would not be in that bad a position, whether they would want to comply is a different things all together.

And what are they going to count as a registered breeder?

Fifth

*On top of this the funds lost by the government through various liscenses, inspections etc.*

You think?

I am not so sure Dan, there are still plenty of establishments around that can fund the DEFRA bunch.

Sixth

*The RSPCA wont really push for this - it would have a direct effect on their pocket.*

*No sales means no numpties buying meaning no need for rescues. No rescues means no adverts and by default, no cash.*

Well this is true, but you will then focus on where you know the cash to be.

Preventing the sale of kittens and puppies from pet stores would not be that disadvantageous now to be honest. And the majority of donaters believe themselves to be donating for the shelters anyway, so that would still continue as a revenue spinner.

Finally, NO, l am sorry if many of you are confused, angered or p####d off by this thread, but this is the signs of things to come. Secondary legislation is en route, as is the EPS legislation, prohibiting primates, potential bans on import into Europe, and everything else.

Just remember - 'oh yes people were 'harping' on about all this before which many declared as scaremongering - and what triggered a response back then with the average reader/keeper? 

NOTHING!!

Now we move along and the hobby is getting smaller as is the industry, as in the keeping of animals to the animals themselves in collections.

People, we are in the eyes of many - the odd bunch - not them, the likes of the RSPCA, Animal Rights groups, they have the vote of support many the time, not us - why because people HAVE ALWAYS considered political writings the work of scaremongerers and because of this people have always said, we will leave it to those who work this to handle, IT WILL NOT AFFECT US.

WRONG, apathy and ignorance have allowed far too many to accept all these restrictions, the complete avoidance of anything political leaves people with a bad taste in their mouth. Well now we have the choice of stating how we feel and pop a mint, or just continue to allow the mental decay to destroy any future prospect of good breath.

Rory Matier
PKL


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

captaincaveman said:


> Sorrychris, but can youtell me where this information iscoming from? ive been looking on the defra site about the second legislation proposals concerning pet shops and can only find this
> 
> Defra, UK - Animal Health and Welfare - Animal Welfare - Animal Welfare Act
> 
> and on pet shops and pet fairs, even pet fares, being a hotbed with certain groups, seems to just want to remove buisness and dont even have plans to licence these events let alone ban them for breeders selling excess stock
> 
> 
> 
> Defra, UK - Animal Health and Welfare - Animal Welfare - Animal Welfare Act
> 
> 
> Maybe im missing something totally, ive never been brilliant looking over legal documents as the wording is always a bit mis-leading, but i cant see where abouts these proposals are?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, im not doubting your convictions/fears but i'd personally like to read it myself/print it out


 
Jason, 

Remember how l started this post.

A piece of legislation that is backed by the RSPCA, this is what they are wanting - this is what they are pushing for.

Rory


----------



## SiUK

I agree with a few of the things Dan said, it does seem to be going around in circles, although this keeps it in everyones thoughts, I dont see the enthusiasm that we saw for the first few weeks, I think a new approach is needed a bit, I mentioned the other day about people being confused, there is so much stuff thrown at us day in day out, that it makes people either stop reading about it or start to question it.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

SiUK said:


> I agree with a few of the things Dan said, it does seem to be going around in circles, although this keeps it in everyones thoughts, I dont see the enthusiasm that we saw for the first few weeks, I think a new approach is needed a bit, I mentioned the other day about people being confused, there is so much stuff thrown at us day in day out, that it makes people either stop reading about it or start to question it.


 
Oh well welcome again Si, peoples enthusiasm wanes, as it always does.

Why because so many many wish to see instant gratification with so many aspects of todays world. With politics it thankfully is not like that, and we live in a democratic society.


Well lets look at taking our discussions outwatds.

So far l have been warned three times in respect of this board to back off the private keeper?? Why?

Take it to retail, okay - well l am as they are also involved.

But why?

Because it makes the average keeper feel awkward, bad?

So we take it to society and retail level - that sit better? Well guess what? It still comes back to the private keeper, so all these posts will sound similiar because we need to try and write the same message over and over again so that more and more people come on board and perhaps view it differently.

Dan has a lot to lose like many sellers if a lot of these legislational campaigns go ahead, he imports and he sells. 

So where do you want us to focus - national coverage via the television studios? GREAT, excellent plan, except it is way past our means financially and whilst you can start small efforts it would take considerable time afterwards to actually launch the sodding thing! 

WHY?

Because due to people thinking scaremongering is unaaceptable they have made the ability not to bloody listen longer than two months perfectly acceptable and as such do not donate to the fight, because they do not ever thinking there is a bloody problem!!

Our political campaign fund comprises a gainly £3K, that is it, we need to not just fundraise, but almost pull off a sodden heist to get a reasonable amount of money together in quick time.

Why we have this amount, well because politics in any format is not greatly received by any fraction. Wehave to rectify all that.

Perhaps the forum is getting bored, why not that would be acceptable?

So perhaps we should stop posting for a while - would that be better served, if no one was referring to the politics and you all went on the merry way for a while as is always the case until something else rocks your hobbies and you want to why nothing was said or done about it.

If so, fine, l will pull away for a little while and work on the business that l have or may nort have in the next two years, and whilst l am at it, l will also look at how to improve the legislation that is already affecting my business.

How is that Si, is that the answer? PKL pull out for a period of time?

R
PKL


----------



## ratboy

SiUK said:


> I agree with a few of the things Dan said, it does seem to be going around in circles, although this keeps it in everyones thoughts, I dont see the enthusiasm that we saw for the first few weeks, I think a new approach is needed a bit, I mentioned the other day about people being confused, there is so much stuff thrown at us day in day out, that it makes people either stop reading about it or start to question it.


The current *surge* in interest was brought about in no small part by the cancellation of the Exeter show. Are we saying it's going to take another cancellation or two next year to get interest back up again ?

The RSPCA have openly stated that they are against the sale of animals in pet shops, they make no secret of it at all. If pet shops stopped selling animals, people would have to go to breeders if they want to buy animals and those breeders through the AWA would be firmly controlled by the RSPCA in their role as AWA inspectors, which a number of councils (including mine as I have asked) have stated will be the case.

Another recommended place for getting animals is their very own shelters where the message is clearly to adopt an unwanted pet rather than buy one that someone has bred... If the RSPCA shelters became one of the few places where animals could be obtained, how much would this do to boost their profile and bolster their political aspirations ? ... and how much does one pay to rehome an RSPCA animal these days ?


----------



## Andy

Sadly I can see pet shops been banned in the future. It would only take a few overly strict regulations under the five freedoms thingy to make shops unable to keep stock appropriately.


----------



## SiUK

no thats not the answer I was looking for, I just think we need to refresh everyones enthusiasm somehow, and although backing down for a while then coming back would do this, its not going to push the campaign forward in the ways that is needed. I spend a fair bit of time reading through these threads seeing what people are saying and the response you are getting, I put in my two pennies worth when I think that I can add something constructive.

Maybe it would be a good idea as well as carrying on, on this forum to target another of the bigger UK reptile and exotic forums as well, obviosly alot of the people on here post on other forums but theres some that dont, just a thought.


----------



## sparkle

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Oh well welcome again Si, peoples enthusiasm wanes, as it always does.
> 
> Why because so many many wish to see instant gratification with so many aspects of todays world. With politics it thankfully is not like that, and we live in a democratic society.
> 
> 
> Well lets look at taking our discussions outwatds.
> 
> So far l have been warned three times in respect of this board to back off the private keeper?? Why?
> 
> Take it to retail, okay - well l am as they are also involved.
> 
> But why?
> 
> Because it makes the average keeper feel awkward, bad?
> 
> So we take it to society and retail level - that sit better? Well guess what? It still comes back to the private keeper, so all these posts will sound similiar because we need to try and write the same message over and over again so that more and more people come on board and perhaps view it differently.
> 
> Dan has a lot to lose like many sellers if a lot of these legislational campaigns go ahead, he imports and he sells.
> 
> So where do you want us to focus - national coverage via the television studios? GREAT, excellent plan, except it is way past our means financially and whilst you can start small efforts it would take considerable time afterwards to actually launch the sodding thing!
> 
> WHY?
> 
> Because due to people thinking scaremongering is unaaceptable they have made the ability not to bloody listen longer than two months perfectly acceptable and as such do not donate to the fight, because they do not ever thinking there is a bloody problem!!
> 
> Our political campaign fund comprises a gainly £3K, that is it, we need to not just fundraise, but almost pull off a sodden heist to get a reasonable amount of money together in quick time.
> 
> Why we have this amount, well because politics in any format is not greatly received by any fraction. Wehave to rectify all that.
> 
> Perhaps the forum is getting bored, why not that would be acceptable?
> 
> So perhaps we should stop posting for a while - would that be better served, if no one was referring to the politics and you all went on the merry way for a while as is always the case until something else rocks your hobbies and you want to why nothing was said or done about it.
> 
> If so, fine, l will pull away for a little while and work on the business that l have or may nort have in the next two years, and whilst l am at it, l will also look at how to improve the legislation that is already affecting my business.
> 
> How is that Si, is that the answer? PKL pull out for a period of time?
> 
> R
> PKL


 
Ok here is my view.. im just a confused middle of the road forumite.. who cant work out what the HECK is going on with al this... Im not stupid.. I studied at UNI.. i used to be a mortgage advisor and also taught kids art... IM not the worlds most intelligent person but nor am I the daftest... BUT this subject and style of posting has me tearing my hair out...

I WAS interested BUT now i am totally confused... NOT BORED.... is it perhaps the way this info is being related that is making people switch off.. like with pyhtagorus theory in school..

you asked your teached BUT WHY??>

and he said.. you dont need to know WHY just do it!!! 



IM also wondering if the visual images used are a tad offputting...
i think the pics in your sig are overly dramatic and not relevant to the topic in hand... using GOD and religious artwork is always iconic and therefore eye-catching... but its not particularly relevant I dont think...whilst i dont mind a bit of artistic endevour I actually thought it was some hellraiser temporary haloween signature you had..

then i thought it was something religious or satanic.. then i realisd NO its about animals..

After trying to wade through all the info about legislation.. try to work out what is and what isnt definate.. how to ask a question without getting back some cryptic answer my heads sore... then i look at the signatures and instead of being dramatic enough to keep my attention they were plenty enough to put me right off...

perhaps instead of backing off just have a wee think about approach..

clear cut bullet points and a few logos that dont look like they were made by freddy krugers younger brother might help..

I appreciate you are passionate about all this but im not sure you are enlisting the same passion with the type of posts youre making and the visual images you are using..

its only my tuppenceworth... and i could be way off the mark but I know thats whats puttig me off finding out more and helping out.


----------



## Dan

*You haven't learned from the mistakes the FBH made in the posting everything technique they employed. You are scaring your target away and you need to stop that pretty quick if you want to achieve anything.* 

First and foremost - quit with referring to the problems the FBH made and referring them in a cross checked manner back to me.

*Why? You are acting in the same stubborn manner and following the EXACT same path that they did on here.*


Second, 

*Constantly forcing an issue that people don't want to accept DOES NOT WORK. Stop going round in circles and use your collective heads. For a fresh approach this whole charade is looking more and more like a repeat of years gone by. *

Whether keepers want to accept what is written will always come down to the reader. However to continue with your own charade of talking about what the people will and will not accept becomes tiresome even to me. The amount of times you have in some ways berated the intelligence of the viewer is a tad more than belittling to them.

The reader will 'read, and then try to discern what is being written and then either walk away or question'.the ability to question is what is important, - question, challenge, etc' now that is healthy. It shows that irrelevant to something being believed or not believed means that people are interested in knowing.

*If my posts are tiresome i'll call it a day. This will be my last on the matter and you can go back to believing that the majority of people actually read your posts rather than glaze over them.*

.......

Finally, NO, l am sorry if many of you are confused, angered or p####d off by this thread, but this is the signs of things to come. Secondary legislation is en route, as is the EPS legislation, prohibiting primates, potential bans on import into Europe, and everything else.

Just remember - 'oh yes people were 'harping' on about all this before which many declared as scaremongering - and what triggered a response back then with the average reader/keeper? 

NOTHING!!

Now we move along and the hobby is getting smaller as is the industry, as in the keeping of animals to the animals themselves in collections.

People, we are in the eyes of many - the odd bunch - not them, the likes of the RSPCA, Animal Rights groups, they have the vote of support many the time, not us - why because people HAVE ALWAYS considered political writings the work of scaremongerers and because of this people have always said, we will leave it to those who work this to handle, IT WILL NOT AFFECT US.

WRONG, apathy and ignorance have allowed far too many to accept all these restrictions, the complete avoidance of anything political leaves people with a bad taste in their mouth. Well now we have the choice of stating how we feel and pop a mint, or just continue to allow the mental decay to destroy any future prospect of good breath.

*The restrictions in place and likely to be put in place will be put there because the people that are "looking after us" are completely bloody useless. *
*Advertising a pint of beer in an AA meeting would be a challenge for you lot.*
*Support could have been here by the lorry load by now but because you can't talk to people in a manner they understand you have next to no support.*

*The PKL has a grand total of 196 signatures. That is a f***ing disgraceful number and one you should be bloody ashamed of rather than parading it in your signature. It should be 10 times that figure by now. But hey, you'll have excuses for that and be happy with it in your mind. *

*I'm sorry folks but unless you find someone worthwhile to support you then the hobby is doomed.*

*If you don't like what's been said then tough. When it all goes down the swanny remember i warned you from the start Rory but you thought you knew better.*

Yes, i am sure someone will say i should be doing something rather than moaning as they always do. This is not possible though i'm afraid as i have more debt than a small African country and need to earn money out of this hobby while it still exists. 
Oh and if the above post sounds bitter, that's because this time it is. I am sick to death of the same crap coming up time and again without people ever actually learning. 
And that's me, done.


----------



## sparkle

Reticulatus... and I am deadly serious here...

that actually made sense to me..

so thank you for that


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

Remind me Dan.

What did you say?

182 signatures from a an apathetic market, is pretty good in 12 weeks Dan.

I am a volunteer , and do not get paid, and l too have DEBT, so why are you using that?

Go on Dan, do it. 

This is what you want, the crown as you do call it, then wear it.

I will step away from the forum.

R
PKL


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## Andy

I dont think you have to back away Rory just because someone disagrees with you. I am sure there is room on here for two approaches if Dan feels the need to do something himself.


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## sparkle

You dont have to leave rory...


and thankyou for removing the distracting religious images from your sig 


I think all thats being said here is that we are ( or at least I am) totally confused.. and trust me i have honestly and fairly quietly ( unlike me) tried to follow this from a few months back


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## TSKA Rory Matier

I am not walking away.

I am going to concentrate on the campaigns for pkl, private keepers, society and retail.

As to the forums, there are any number of pkl writers here that can from this point onwards inform you of any movements.

Disagreement is not the problem, it comes doen to Dan wanting something else, then the challenge is there for all to take. If it helps the hobby, start doing it.

R


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## toyah

My view on all these threads is that they are becoming counter-productive. There's only so many times we can read that Group X are talking about playing Y restrictions on Z species, and that clearly means that THE END OF PET KEEPING IS UPON US. It doesn't - and people aren't going to believe that. Overly emotive, underly informative, and overly self-righteous postings don't make people want to take part, especially if they don't offer any answers or different slants on the information presented.

Half the problem is, what is quite often presented as an example of the evil RSPCA (or whoever) infringing on our rights may seem like quite a good idea to many of the readers.

I don't actually think that the restrictions on bird imports are *that* bad an idea, in the face of bird flu - I certainly don't see it as an attempt to stop animal keeping and animal import/export entirely. If it was some sort of evil conspiracy against all animal owners/breeders, then the government wouldn't be introducing an expanding on pet passports for other species. The majority of small mammals landed in rescue each year are either from pet shops, from people who breed purely for pet shops, or from animals purchased pregnant from pet stores - so banning them being sold isn't going to make me that unhappy. Fish and reptiles might be a different case, but I find it difficult to object to laws I find helpful and positive purely on the basis that a man on the internet says that it's possible that one day in the future the goalposts could maybe be changed and it's conceivable that it could result in something I don't want.

Rather than worrying about a potential vision of the future, why not look at what we can do today? The main issue today that reptile keepers such as ourselves are interested in seems to be reptile "shows". We like them - some people claim they're illegal, and if we want any chance of continuing with events like them in future, we don't need to be fighting against the possibility of legislation being introduced in future, we need to be cleaning our act up NOW. That way, when there IS something concrete for us to object to, we can proudly show the people in charge how the reptile fancy isn't just what amounts to individual, private, unlicensed pet shops that need regulating. We can show as a community that we encourage and value proper husbandry, and most importantly we need to show that we value our animals individually in the same way that pet or small livestock owners do.


----------



## Akua_Ko_Nalu

toyah said:


> My view on all these threads is that they are becoming counter-productive. There's only so many times we can read that Group X are talking about playing Y restrictions on Z species, and that clearly means that THE END OF PET KEEPING IS UPON US. It doesn't - and people aren't going to believe that. Overly emotive, underly informative, and overly self-righteous postings don't make people want to take part, especially if they don't offer any answers or different slants on the information presented.
> 
> Half the problem is, what is quite often presented as an example of the evil RSPCA (or whoever) infringing on our rights may seem like quite a good idea to many of the readers.
> 
> I don't actually think that the restrictions on bird imports are *that* bad an idea, in the face of bird flu - I certainly don't see it as an attempt to stop animal keeping and animal import/export entirely. If it was some sort of evil conspiracy against all animal owners/breeders, then the government wouldn't be introducing an expanding on pet passports for other species. The majority of small mammals landed in rescue each year are either from pet shops, from people who breed purely for pet shops, or from animals purchased pregnant from pet stores - so banning them being sold isn't going to make me that unhappy. Fish and reptiles might be a different case, but I find it difficult to object to laws I find helpful and positive purely on the basis that a man on the internet says that it's possible that one day in the future the goalposts could maybe be changed and it's conceivable that it could result in something I don't want.
> 
> Rather than worrying about a potential vision of the future, why not look at what we can do today? The main issue today that reptile keepers such as ourselves are interested in seems to be reptile "shows". We like them - some people claim they're illegal, and if we want any chance of continuing with events like them in future, we don't need to be fighting against the possibility of legislation being introduced in future, we need to be cleaning our act up NOW. That way, when there IS something concrete for us to object to, we can proudly show the people in charge how the reptile fancy isn't just what amounts to individual, private, unlicensed pet shops that need regulating. We can show as a community that we encourage and value proper husbandry, and most importantly we need to show that we value our animals individually in the same way that pet or small livestock owners do.


 
I think that is the best piece of literature I've read in a long while, it's spot on!


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## ratboy

I think all phrases such as "Evil conspiracy" really do is mock the points that are being brought up by Rory and the PKL. This is not a pantomime, it's real life. 

I don't recall anybody saying that taking steps to prevent the spread of bird flu was a bad idea but the fact is that the steps that were taken has resulted in the ban of wild caught birds into Europe and captive birds can only be imported if they were bred by approved breeders.

The EPS has had exactly the same result. Perhaps that one is not too bad either eh ? It has to be good to not allow WC animals to be collected from the wild and kept in captivity and it has to be a good idea to have to prove that the animals you have are captive bred... this is what many voices on the forum have been calling for isn't it ? voluntary licensing to keep the animals we keep ? Brilliant, until you find out it's bloody well impossible to do !!

We are told that pet shops are bad places to buy animals from and they should instead be bought from approved breeders or rescue places...

Does no-one see a running theme here ?

Does no-one see our rights to keep the animals we want to keep being eroded 
away before our very eyes ? 

Last year, if I bought a WC leopard rat snake to introduce new blood into a breeding project it would be fine... this year it's illegal because I would not be granted a licence. Last year an animal I bought at a show was legal... this year it isn't unless I can prove it's captive bred.

Yes the laws that are being introduced are great in terms of why they were introduced. But what of the long term effects of these laws ? What are we going to do when more versions of the not-very-well-thought-out EPS come out ? I dare say that on the face of them, they will seem like fantastic ideas too.


----------



## ratboy

on another note ... how are we going to clean up the hobby to show the world a glossy shiny facade on the front of it ?

The fact is that the vast majority do not see anything wrong with the hobby as it is and will be the last people to want to see it change.


----------



## Akua_Ko_Nalu

ratboy said:


> on another note ... how are we going to clean up the hobby to show the world a glossy shiny facade on the front of it ?
> 
> The fact is that the vast majority do not see anything wrong with the hobby as it is and will be the last people to want to see it change.


I think simple measures, promoting good husbandry techniques (which is what we all aspire to do to start with right?)

Followed by good husbandry at shows, I see far too many animals boxed and piled up high for cheap prices, and sold to any Tom, Dick and Harry.


----------



## brittone05

Totally agree Steve. Too many keepers don't actually see the problems int he first place.

Rory - the idea of you walking away formt he forum is not a good one for me. you are the main point of contact for many keepers who are both involved with PKL and for those who want to help but don't quite know where to begin.

I know for many, it is confusing. Many new pieces of proposed legislation and current legislation are being uncovered daily and many of them are confusing for he people who actually have political knowhow and stuff. I get confused, I sometimes have to read things 5 times over before it sinks in but I read it all the same because, for me, if there is just a 1% chance that the said proposal will effect me, I want ot know how we canf ace it when it happens.

Things can't be faced as they happen, although it woul dbe amazing if they could. they need to be thought out, looked deeply into and studied so that we, as keepers, know the fine details of what we are facing. The RSPCA are pushing these things and as a multi million pound "organisation" (I don't say charity because with nearly £200 million int he bank they arne't exactly pushing for cash are they), they have got a full, cutthrouat team of legal bods, their own political team, mor eresearchers and such than PKL has members right now and they can make things happen fast - what can we do in disagreeance to their proposals? Fight amongst ourselves? Wait until it happens and grumble about it? Maybe we could even just sit back and watch the changes without giving a toss?

I know that I want to do all i can to help in the fight. Some of you don't care either way and take the choice that you will keep your animals regardless - what kind of face is that for the hobby? So not only are we all wierdos who olike things cold and scaley, but we are also law breakers with bad attitudes? 

I shall continue to work alongside PKL proudly be it on or off the forums but I genuinely beleive that people will be even more int he dark now without a voice - such a shame 

(With regards to the images in Rory's sig also - I created them for a specific reason - Rory has been called a lot of things for facing the campaigns he is working on - one of them things was the anti Christ - they were not meant to be offensive towards anyone and I apologise if they were - I knew they cwould carry a certain shock value to them and as such knew that there was a chance that they would catch people's eyes nad make them read that little bit longer. again apologies should they have offended anyone )


----------



## SiUK

Akua_Ko_Nalu said:


> I think simple measures, promoting good husbandry techniques (which is what we all aspire to do to start with right?)
> 
> Followed by good husbandry at shows, I see far too many animals boxed and piled up high for cheap prices, and sold to any Tom, Dick and Harry.


I agree with you on that one, I think shows are portrayed in a very bad light by the RSPCA and antis and sadly in some cases they are right, they say that the shows are full of ill WC animals, which judging by the people selling and what is said here is not really the case there are alot of breeders and hobbyist breeders at these shows selling there own top quality CB stock.

What does look bad is, like you say animals in tiny boxes no hides, animals easily stressed that only come out at night having to sit under the bright lights all day with people picking up boxes and peering at them, then sold to anyone prepared to hand over there cash regardless of who they are.


----------



## ratboy

Akua_Ko_Nalu said:


> Followed by good husbandry at shows, I see far too many animals boxed and piled up high for cheap prices, and sold to any Tom, Dick and Harry.


This is the point though isn't it. The Anti's level at us that shows are like markets and they are spot on. How likely is that to change in the next couple of years ? How likely are we to see any difference next year to last year or the year before when it is not agreed or admitted that there is anything wrong with the shows as they are. ?


----------



## SiUK

toyah said:


> My view on all these threads is that they are becoming counter-productive. There's only so many times we can read that Group X are talking about playing Y restrictions on Z species, and that clearly means that THE END OF PET KEEPING IS UPON US.


this is the bit I agree with.


----------



## ratboy

brittone05 said:


> Maybe we could even just sit back and watch the changes without giving a toss?


Going by the support that the EPS campaign is receiving, I know what my inclination will be if and when they come for the boids.


----------



## SiUK

what is the next step in the EPS campaign?


----------



## toyah

ratboy said:


> I don't recall anybody saying that taking steps to prevent the spread of bird flu was a bad idea but the fact is that the steps that were taken has resulted in the ban of wild caught birds into Europe and captive birds can only be imported if they were bred by approved breeders.


I see this - my point is, just because someone does not see this as a particuarly bad thing does not mean they are apathetic, to use one of the insults that are constantly hurled at everyone who does not reply to threads in this section.



ratboy said:


> on another note ... how are we going to clean up the hobby to show the world a glossy shiny facade on the front of it ?


I don't want a glossy shiny facade. I want a fancy I can genuinely be proud of, not a facade.

Personally, my first steps would be as outlined in this thread: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/hobby-issues-information/54245-reptile-shows-2.html

To recap, I would personally want sellers at shows to adhere to certain minimum standards:

1. Everything needs to be established. A minimum size/age for geckos. Snakes should be well started and have had X number of feeds unassisted and have shed Y number of times before being offered for sale at a show.

2. All animals must have access to water during the show. Where appropriate, they should have access to food.

3. Tub sizes must be appropriate (and for lizards - that means enough space to move in - I agree with Nerys re: leos in cricket tubs!) and include a hide or dark area for the animal to retreat to.

4. Appropriate temperatures must be provides. This can be a thermostatted heat mat, or cool mats. If an area of the hall becomes too hot, then the organisers must immediately take action to relocate any sellers located in that area (I can guarantee someone will have an infra-red thermometer at a reptile show - use it!).

5. All animals must be sold with care sheets and appropriate guidance must be given to purchasers, even if they insist they already know! A system such as some pet shops use (coast to coast and snakes n adders stick out to me) where care sheets/sales sheets must be signed by both parties and retained would be ideal to ensure this is stuck to.

My ideal take on reptile events would be:

As long as the show centered around the judging and exhibition areas, sales could be allowed too, as long as they were not the main focal point. Perhaps a show and exhibition could be opened to everyone, and heavily advertised to the public, with a separate area where selling is limited to club members/exhibitors, and buying limited to club members only? That would keep most people happy, and be a much more involved and presentable image for our fancy to give to outsiders.

I don't agree that the vast majority see nothing wrong with our hobby the way it is (though maybe I am just over-optimistic) - but it's just accepted because that's the way it's always been, so that's the way it's done, the established people know what they're doing, who are we to challenge them, etc. But maybe if there are people who are interested in championing reptiles as wonderful pets, amazing animals to own, animals deserved of cherishing, and many of them carefully bred, spectacular exhibition animals in their own right, then maybe the time will come for a new group to move apart from people who don't want any change to any aspect of the hobby, and who don't want to just put on a facade - people who want to make real changes to how hobbiests act and so how the hobby is seen to the outside world.


----------



## captaincaveman

The issue i have with these subjects, is that it is all doom and gloom to the point your going to scare some people out of the hobby based on possibilitys, im all for fighting our corner,but by saying within 20years, there wont be any keeping your going to panic many new keepers into selling up

Could you imagine any reptile shop putting up this kind of information in their shops, of course they wouldn't as its message seems to read "no hope"


----------



## sparkle

(With regards to the images in Rory's sig also - I created them for a specific reason - Rory has been called a lot of things for facing the campaigns he is working on - one of them things was the anti Christ - they were not meant to be offensive towards anyone and I apologise if they were - I knew they cwould carry a certain shock value to them and as such knew that there was a chance that they would catch people's eyes nad make them read that little bit longer. again apologies should they have offended anyone )[/quote]

hey brit... i wasnt offended as such by rorys sig... it was just way over the top i felt... and very personal... if he is being called the anit-christ better to ignore this that highlight it.. no point biting back at the people condeming... it shows lack of confidence and thats eexactly what hs been created here... bot not by the sigs per-say.. by the threads and arguements...

lets highlight some other part of it all... and not make it look like armageddon..

doomsday images create a feeling of hopelessness as i would imagne do anti-christ ones...

the art work was great... perhaps the content could be changed 

as for the posting its so haphazzard and cryptic i tend to give up..

my learning style is visual and kinetic so reading a pile of blurb wil mean i do not retain it well...

thats unfortunate as I think there are many good points to be made


As for shows I am undecided how I feel.... showing reptiles must surely be far more stressful that say showing dogs.. im not sure personally I support the thought of showing reps as such..

however im sure if proper guidelines were set and adhered to it might be fine ... but I have seen some people who are selling their animals ( snakes AND lizadrs) have their animals out for hours without water or hides... ( and certainly NO heat) I can only imagine if hides were present the animals would sue them and the passers by wont SEE the animal so easily.. thus being nad for business... im not sure exactly what rules should be implemented but hides and water at all times seems like an absolute minum and if people arent already adhering to that its a poor show from the breeders.


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## ratboy

I think it only reads no hope because the main incentive behind this hobby is making money out of it. I hope I am wrong, but that is what I feel about it. 

Shows are for selling the latest morphs that have been created by breeders hoping to make a bit of profit out of their hobby, it's really as simple as that. But even they are being vastly overshadowed by the European shows. So people go to those shows, buy animals and bring them back to either sell or introduce into the latest breeding project... it's all about money. People put animals in way to small tubs with no water for the simple reason that they can get more on the table... and this is what reptile shows are all about.

This, Toyah, is what I meant by a facade. We already have a facade that the hobby is actually really good and totally misunderstood by those that wish to see it stopped. But that, IMHO is not true and it will be almost impossible to change it while it is driven by making money.


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## ratboy

The really scary part to me is if the animal rights and animal welfare organisations succeed in their wish to get animals removed from shops.... and we cannot clean up animal welfare within shows, which even in the few responses here it is plain to see it is bad, they will have no problem having the shows shut down through the AWA... and let's face it from what I have heard about attendances this year, the UK shows are not exactly well attended in the first place ?

So no shows and no shops.... what then ?


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## toyah

ratboy said:


> I think it only reads no hope because the main incentive behind this hobby is making money out of it. I hope I am wrong, but that is what I feel about it. [...] We already have a facade that the hobby is actually really good and totally misunderstood by those that wish to see it stopped. But that, IMHO is not true and it will be almost impossible to change it while it is driven by making money.


Well, I don't like it, and want it to change. It sounds, if I can be so presumptious, that you don't either and would like to see a change. Perhaps there's another couple of hundred people out there who don't like it and would like to see a change ... but it only takes half a dozen people willing to put the work in to make something new and exciting happen.

People piling up animals in tubs that are too small, with no water, no regard for the babies ... maybe we just need to say no, you're not welcome. But to be honest if the selling was not the main focus, I doubt they'd want to be a part of it anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I do sell on my baby snakes - but that isn't the be-all and end-all of it for me. I'd prefer that to be an aside to a hobby that's based more on pleasure in owning - yes, and showing off - individual animals I consider myself proud to own and have bred. Maybe if people realise they can have that and more, then they will come out of the woodwork, as long as it's all run very differently to the CSFC to not dredge up any bad memories  But I think this is getting off the topic somewhat ... apologies.


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## WeThePeople

Im a bit baffled by this, Rory has quit posting on this forum due to a disagreement? If your going to jump at such a small hurdle how do you expect people to have faith in you when the exotic pet apocalypse comes?

A lot of your membership are members here arent they?


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## brittone05

I think changing the face of the hobby re the show side would be an amazing step to be taken but is that really a problem at the forefront right now when over hte next coupl eof years, there owuld be no shows to improve?

The RSPCa no doubt don't give 2 thoughts to whether you display your animals in tubs or in 6 foot vivs - it is the whole concept of a private gathering for "fanciers" in the hobby to sell thier animals that is the problem they have.

If I am honest, i think that with aspects such as shows and such, it isn't the details put into it but it's very being that is in the firing line right now and I genuinely beleive that if the changes are to be made, they need to be made now.

I am not a political whizz, I know practically nothing about ht elegislation surrounding the shows - yes I have copies of the AWA and the accompanying notes that I read and I regularly checkf or updates but things are changing on a dialy basis and whent he fight for 1 thing begins, the goalpost is moved and another fight must be started.

I think that fighting the core reason for the change is the way forward, whilst we cna still concentrate on better improving the face of the hobby but the bigger picture needs more than 1 man putting his neck ont he chopping block and a handful of concerned keepers supporting the campaigns - it needs everything we have and sadly, without the keepers, we have nothing 

I see it all in laymans terms nad i place it out that way here - I am not soft, I know when I amhaving my buttons pushed and I genuinely beleive that Rory's and Chris's (and all the other people who read the legis. and deal with the antis n a higher level than reading the site) concerns are founded by something more than scaremongering and throwing words nad figures onto the net for the sak eof it


----------



## Chris Newman

toyah said:


> My view on all these threads is that they are becoming counter-productive. There's only so many times we can read that Group X are talking about playing Y restrictions on Z species, and that clearly means that THE END OF PET KEEPING IS UPON US. It doesn't - and people aren't going to believe that. Overly emotive, underly informative, and overly self-righteous postings don't make people want to take part, especially if they don't offer any answers or different slants on the information presented.
> 
> Half the problem is, what is quite often presented as an example of the evil RSPCA (or whoever) infringing on our rights may seem like quite a good idea to many of the readers.
> 
> I don't actually think that the restrictions on bird imports are *that* bad an idea, in the face of bird flu - I certainly don't see it as an attempt to stop animal keeping and animal import/export entirely. If it was some sort of evil conspiracy against all animal owners/breeders, then the government wouldn't be introducing an expanding on pet passports for other species. The majority of small mammals landed in rescue each year are either from pet shops, from people who breed purely for pet shops, or from animals purchased pregnant from pet stores - so banning them being sold isn't going to make me that unhappy. Fish and reptiles might be a different case, but I find it difficult to object to laws I find helpful and positive purely on the basis that a man on the internet says that it's possible that one day in the future the goalposts could maybe be changed and it's conceivable that it could result in something I don't want.
> 
> Rather than worrying about a potential vision of the future, why not look at what we can do today? The main issue today that reptile keepers such as ourselves are interested in seems to be reptile "shows". We like them - some people claim they're illegal, and if we want any chance of continuing with events like them in future, we don't need to be fighting against the possibility of legislation being introduced in future, we need to be cleaning our act up NOW. That way, when there IS something concrete for us to object to, we can proudly show the people in charge how the reptile fancy isn't just what amounts to individual, private, unlicensed pet shops that need regulating. We can show as a community that we encourage and value proper husbandry, and most importantly we need to show that we value our animals individually in the same way that pet or small livestock owners do.


This is perhaps one of the most naïve posting I have read in a very long time, then perhaps its not as naïve as it first appears. At a glance I thought this was simple a rather naïve posting by a genuine individual concerned with the welfare of animals, upon re-reading I am less convinced. Do you genuinely support the keeping of animals as pets/companions?


----------



## toyah

Chris Newman said:


> This is perhaps one of the most naïve posting I have read in a very long time, then perhaps its not as naïve as it first appears. At a glance I thought this was simple a rather naïve posting by a genuine individual concerned with the welfare of animals, upon re-reading I am less convinced. Do you genuinely support the keeping of animals as pets/companions?


No, I don't. I just keep a couple of hundred pets as some sort of big in-joke... 

I just don't think that anyone who agrees with - or at least doesn't strongly disagree with - every piece of legislation is an apathetic or naive person, and I certainly don't think that just because that's the way things are done now means that that's the way it should be.


----------



## captaincaveman

ratboy said:


> I think it only reads no hope because the main incentive behind this hobby is making money out of it. I hope I am wrong, but that is what I feel about it.
> 
> Shows are for selling the latest morphs that have been created by breeders hoping to make a bit of profit out of their hobby, it's really as simple as that. But even they are being vastly overshadowed by the European shows. So people go to those shows, buy animals and bring them back to either sell or introduce into the latest breeding project... it's all about money. People put animals in way to small tubs with no water for the simple reason that they can get more on the table... and this is what reptile shows are all about.
> 
> This, Toyah, is what I meant by a facade. We already have a facade that the hobby is actually really good and totally misunderstood by those that wish to see it stopped. But that, IMHO is not true and it will be almost impossible to change it while it is driven by making money.


 
Im not sure how it has anything to do with morphs? i remember going to shows 15 years back where there were still small boxes piled up(exactly the same as you see now), but full of non morph snakes

i can remember going to shows with stacks of tables brimmed with normal royals, common corns, kings, milks, the same people who are out to make money with morphs are the same people who were doing it with commons and the like, just they shifted more of them

Its not fair making morphs the scape goat for the show issues in the reptile world, did you ever go to shows back then? some were awful with about 50% of the stock being wild caught, and for me WC is one of the biggest sorce of ammunition that could be used against us


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## leptophis

can i just say that people are allowed to disagree without being labelled as something anti, one of my biggest concerns is still raising standards and knowledge, but nobody ever seems interested in this one, theres so much we can do to increase outside levels of perception from outside the hobby , but agin very few people are interested in it, whilst i dont agree with chris on everything i certainly understand his frustration about how nothing gets done


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## Chris Newman

toyah said:


> No, I don't. I just keep a couple of hundred pets as some sort of big in-joke... .


That would be very unfortunate; keeping of pets is not a frivolous matter.


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## Chris Newman

leptophis said:


> can i just say that people are allowed to disagree without being labelled as something anti, one of my biggest concerns is still raising standards and knowledge, but nobody ever seems interested in this one, theres so much we can do to increase outside levels of perception from outside the hobby , but agin very few people are interested in it, whilst i dont agree with chris on everything i certainly understand his frustration about how nothing gets done


Disagreement is a fact of life; in fact without disagreement things could be quite tedious. However, there are certain parameters that consent is essential if we are to mover forward. I agree entirely that rising stands should be a priority, after all that was the fundament point of the Animal Welfare Act. If we are to move forward I guess the primary issue is that we have to agree upon is that of animal welfare, not animal rights. If we agree upon this simple premise, then we can have constructive dialogue as hoe this can be achieved.


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## Fangio

WeThePeople said:


> *Im a bit baffled by this, Rory has quit posting on this forum due to a disagreement?* If your going to jump at such a small hurdle how do you expect people to have faith in you when the exotic pet apocalypse comes?
> 
> A lot of your membership are members here arent they?


 
Me too dude.

Rory I really can't make my mind up about the pro keepers lobby. I truely want to believe you are "exactly as stated on the tin".

I see lots of scaremongering and little "this is what we need to do" going on as always. It's nice for you and Chris to come on here and keep us informed (much appreciated) but what your average keeper on the street needs is a few ways in which they can be a part of the fight rather than just be talked down to.

Seriously guys if you can start a thread on ways the keepers can try and benefit the hobby rather than just sit there and worry it'd be very beneficial to all.

Personally I've rejoined my local reptile club (affiliated to the FBH) and will help out at all the public events to help raise awareness etc but as for any more than that I'm a bit clueless as I believe most are.


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## SiUK

People need to know what can really be done to help, these threads appear daily and its clear that people are finding them boring now, and some others myself included are a little confused by all the legislation and proposed legislation. I think its fair to say that progress is naturally slow in these matters, its not ever going to be an over night thing but its keeping people motivated and involved without people thinking its going to far.

People get told to support PKL, but I see people ask what the PKL is and what happens when they join, this needs to be addressed I think a sticky at the top of the hobby issues section is needed with a brief over view of the PKL, so people clicking into this section for the first time can easily get a grasp of whats going on.

I think we need regular updates of what the PKL is doing at the moment and how they are moving forward, rather than, heres whats going to happen if you dont do anything, because people are thinking well what shall I do. Its more motivating to see positives coming out of something that being constantly bombarded with negatives, if you see what I mean.


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## purejurrasic

You know, there IS a lot more than meets the eye with all these threads.

Yes, they may well put the fear of god into some

Yes they may well be the biggest joke this year for others

FACT is 

our own hobby is at war with its self.

I mean, go to a show, see tables of leos squashed in to tiny cricket tubs ...

every one says thats bad, they have no water, no hides...


BUT...


YOU STILL BUY THEM

WHY????


Most agree, bulk importation of wild reptiles has an effect on the populations, does involve some bad practices, a lot of deaths. 

But hey, they are cheap, we all love a good deal dont we?

Current laws state that these shows are private beeders meetings. 

How on earth can buying bulk imports for sale at shows be classed as private breeding?

We had a poll recently on society memberships. the results told a sory story.

very low membership levels, complaints that websites are not upto date, no glossy newsletters with wordsearches !!!

At the same time, accusations of not being looked after. Why the hell should these groups look after you when you show no support.

Even local societies are to blame, mine included !

No communications, no support, no interest

Societies who publicly adopt guidelines, but then flout them. Feeding the antis with ammo.

Who went to the Norwich show last weekend?

The ONLY 'show' I have been to that I saw activly enforcing a no food or drink in the hall policy.

Very few if any, cricket tubs stuffed with oversized animals.

Overall proberbly the best meeting I have seen for a long time. 

BUT 


Every one selling said it was poor, myself included.

Under attended, under advertised, or not cheap enough !

We all at some time have a run in about the best care

BUT we have to start somewhere

we have to self regulate before its done for us

we have to work together

No more of this 'oh, its gonna harm my trade' or 'we are the biggest, stop sirring problems for us'

We need to stand together on this

Whats going on right now is a joke as far as structure goes, all little enclosed societies, groups or individuals worried about themselves, little infights, sniping

The worlds is NOT going to change overnight, a month of high profile tv adds is not going to change anything, apart from bank balances

What will change things is US

IF we can see a way to work together to move forward WE can win, we can protect our hobby

If not, well hey hoo, open season against everyone whilst we try to squeeze each penny profit before we HAVE to stop.

We all have a part to play, from NOT buying those poorly housed animals at shows to laying your self open to attack and abuse, to ensuring you keep your animals properly.

The truth hurts, so why are we hurting ourselves !


----------



## captaincaveman

purejurrasic said:


> You know, there IS a lot more than meets the eye with all these threads.
> 
> Yes, they may well put the fear of god into some
> 
> Yes they may well be the biggest joke this year for others
> 
> FACT is
> 
> our own hobby is at war with its self.
> 
> I mean, go to a show, see tables of leos squashed in to tiny cricket tubs ...
> 
> every one says thats bad, they have no water, no hides...
> 
> 
> BUT...
> 
> 
> YOU STILL BUY THEM
> 
> WHY????
> 
> 
> Most agree, bulk importation of wild reptiles has an effect on the populations, does involve some bad practices, a lot of deaths.
> 
> But hey, they are cheap, we all love a good deal dont we?
> 
> Current laws state that these shows are private beeders meetings.
> 
> How on earth can buying bulk imports for sale at shows be classed as private breeding?
> 
> We had a poll recently on society memberships. the results told a sory story.
> 
> very low membership levels, complaints that websites are not upto date, no glossy newsletters with wordsearches !!!
> 
> At the same time, accusations of not being looked after. Why the hell should these groups look after you when you show no support.
> 
> Even local societies are to blame, mine included !
> 
> No communications, no support, no interest
> 
> Societies who publicly adopt guidelines, but then flout them. Feeding the antis with ammo.
> 
> Who went to the Norwich show last weekend?
> 
> The ONLY 'show' I have been to that I saw activly enforcing a no food or drink in the hall policy.
> 
> Very few if any, cricket tubs stuffed with oversized animals.
> 
> Overall proberbly the best meeting I have seen for a long time.
> 
> BUT
> 
> 
> Every one selling said it was poor, myself included.
> 
> Under attended, under advertised, or not cheap enough !
> 
> We all at some time have a run in about the best care
> 
> BUT we have to start somewhere
> 
> we have to self regulate before its done for us
> 
> we have to work together
> 
> No more of this 'oh, its gonna harm my trade' or 'we are the biggest, stop sirring problems for us'
> 
> We need to stand together on this
> 
> Whats going on right now is a joke as far as structure goes, all little enclosed societies, groups or individuals worried about themselves, little infights, sniping
> 
> The worlds is NOT going to change overnight, a month of high profile tv adds is not going to change anything, apart from bank balances
> 
> What will change things is US
> 
> IF we can see a way to work together to move forward WE can win, we can protect our hobby
> 
> If not, well hey hoo, open season against everyone whilst we try to squeeze each penny profit before we HAVE to stop.
> 
> We all have a part to play, from NOT buying those poorly housed animals at shows to laying your self open to attack and abuse, to ensuring you keep your animals properly.
> 
> The truth hurts, so why are we hurting ourselves !


yeah, ive always been anti wild caught(with the exeption of breeding programmes by experienced keepers), im also anti CF as many of you may know(CF royals are a pet hate of mine)

I totally agree, our efforts should be working together to clean up all the poor areas of the hobby and giving those peopleless ammunition to throw at us


----------



## SiUK

captaincaveman said:


> yeah, ive always been anti wild caught(with the exeption of breeding programmes by experienced keepers), im also anti CF as many of you may know(CF royals are a pet hate of mine)
> 
> I totally agree, our efforts should be working together to clean up all the poor areas of the hobby and giving those peopleless ammunition to throw at us


that seems like a good step, but where to start? a code of practise for petshops? but would they listen, I have seen pics of some appalling petshops, which really need sorting, they give a hell of a negative image to the hobby, because any member of the public can come in without knowing a thing about reptiles, but see these are in a bad condition.


----------



## purejurrasic

SiUK said:


> that seems like a good step, but where to start? a code of practise for petshops? but would they listen, I have seen pics of some appalling petshops, which really need sorting, they give a hell of a negative image to the hobby, because any member of the public can come in without knowing a thing about reptiles, but see these are in a bad condition.


 
Where to start indeed.

Well, for our part, the PKL are looking at a volunatary code of practice. 

We are looking at societies and shows to start with, nothing heavy, just along the lines of min tub sizes, food and drink, handling animals etc

What we would like to see is simple, the good care of animals.

cant see many wanting to dissagree with that, or can they??

If recongnised groups are able to adopt a code of practice, then retailers can be more assured that they will have a level playing field if they do so also.


From small acorns do huge oaks grow.


----------



## captaincaveman

SiUK said:


> that seems like a good step, but where to start? a code of practise for petshops? but would they listen, I have seen pics of some appalling petshops, which really need sorting, they give a hell of a negative image to the hobby, because any member of the public can come in without knowing a thing about reptiles, but see these are in a bad condition.


 

well i suppose a good start with the shows is to get into discussions with the large organisations who run them(well the larger ones like the IHS) and go from there


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## SiUK

exactly we are all here for the same reason, well I would like to think we are, the love and respect of the animals we keep, I dont want to see any animals mistreated whether it be sickening cruelty down to too small tubs, no hides ect at shows. Although these animals are only kept in these tubs temporarily it cannot be good for them. 

I want to see a positive step forward just like everyone else, I think we need to have more focus on the positives, what the PKL are proposing to do, what has been done, our achievable goals as well as the negatives of whats being done against us. Personally I think that would help to motivate people and keep people keen, because its not all doom and gloom.


----------



## SiUK

captaincaveman said:


> well i suppose a good start with the shows is to get into discussions with the large organisations who run them(well the larger ones like the IHS) and go from there


I agree to make a start with these shows the organisers need to be got onside, not in a demanding way, nobody likes being lectured to, it needs to be a mutual agreement that its important for the positive image of the hobby to make these small changes.


----------



## captaincaveman

SiUK said:


> exactly we are all here for the same reason, well I would like to think we are, the love and respect of the animals we keep, I dont want to see any animals mistreated whether it be sickening cruelty down to too small tubs, no hides ect at shows. Although these animals are only kept in these tubs temporarily it cannot be good for them.
> 
> I want to see a positive step forward just like everyone else, I think we need to have more focus on the positives, what the PKL are proposing to do, what has been done, our achievable goals as well as the negatives of whats being done against us. Personally I think that would help to motivate people and keep people keen, because its not all doom and gloom.


 
agreed, i'd love to see minutes posted on here from a meeting with someone like the IHS on positive steps forward 

Maybe a scheme run so that shops could get a "guild approval" or registration, similar to tradesmen guilds, so that the best shops(following the best practices) get sent an approved certificate and window sticker saying BHS APPROVED RETAILER, or IHS APPROVED RETAILER and listed on one of the sites as a badge of honour, and surely it would be in the interests of shops to want to achieve this(like michelin stars), that way its easier for keepers to say to people, "if you want a rep from a shop go to an approved retailer". It wont solve all the problems but it puts a good public face on the industry


Just a thought


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## SiUK

again another good idea, because then if the legislation gets further down the line, we as the pro keeping fraternity can say, we realise it could be better as an industry, so these are the steps we are taking to improve it, like you say the workmans guild is successful and was started so people knew what they were getting, why cant that work for the petshops as well, after all it is a multi million pound annual industry.


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## captaincaveman

Hell you could take it further, obviously it would need to be with a recognised society like the BHS or IHS, but how about if thiswas working, contacting larger suppliers and have them give % discounts to approved retailers, giving them a small cash incentive


Another issue that would be good to address would be approved care sheets, accessable to anyone from the same society website and frrely avaliable to be downloaded and printed out for shops with the society heading(obviously this would have some teething issues on exact temps/humiditys etc)


Its ideas like this(or better) that need working on, theres enough keepers out there to get behind positive ideas


Just a thought, feel free to flame:lolsign:


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## SiUK

my brains done all the thinking it can for tonight im afraid:lol2: im gonna come back and have a look in the morning when im not so tired, one thing I will add though, is the starting point, an achievable goal needs to be set up, and discussed with the PKL, like for example aproaching the IHS and seeing what there views on regulating the conditions animals are sold in at their shows.


----------



## captaincaveman

SiUK said:


> my brains done all the thinking it can for tonight im afraid:lol2: im gonna come back and have a look in the morning when im not so tired, one thing I will add though, is the starting point, an achievable goal needs to be set up, and discussed with the PKL, like for example aproaching the IHS and seeing what there views on regulating the conditions animals are sold in at their shows.


 
exactly, but positive ideas have got to be a good thing, right?:lolsign:


Later dude


----------



## SiUK

they certainly are, it makes good food for thought:crazy::lolsign: night mate


----------



## Snakes r grreat

captaincaveman said:


> agreed, i'd love to see minutes posted on here from a meeting with someone like the IHS on positive steps forward
> 
> Maybe a scheme run so that shops could get a "guild approval" or registration, similar to tradesmen guilds, so that the best shops(following the best practices) get sent an approved certificate and window sticker saying BHS APPROVED RETAILER, or IHS APPROVED RETAILER and listed on one of the sites as a badge of honour, and surely it would be in the interests of shops to want to achieve this(like michelin stars), that way its easier for keepers to say to people, "if you want a rep from a shop go to an approved retailer". It wont solve all the problems but it puts a good public face on the industry
> 
> 
> Just a thought


A smililar thing to this is run for aquatic shops by OATA, they have a set code of practice that retailers must adhere to to be given 'approval'. Maidenhead Aquatics have followed this for the last few years, and last year Pets @ Home joined up. OATA also run training courses aswell, but that would be a while of yet for someone like PKL i think. 

Ornamental Fish


----------



## captaincaveman

Snakes r grreat said:


> A smililar thing to this is run for aquatic shops by OATA, they have a set code of practice that retailers must adhere to to be given 'approval'. Maidenhead Aquatics have followed this for the last few years, and last year Pets @ Home joined up. OATA also run training courses aswell, but that would be a while of yet for someone like PKL i think.
> 
> Ornamental Fish


 
excellent, so it can work then, thing is for me i'd rather the hobby concentrated on getting things like this up and running and making sure "our house is clean"


----------



## purejurrasic

captaincaveman said:


> excellent, so it can work then, thing is for me i'd rather the hobby concentrated on getting things like this up and running and making sure "our house is clean"


This is exactly the aim I am looking at. 

The PKL represents keepers from all hobbies, but with thier support, and the networks that are already in place, it should be quite possible to get this off the ground. 

The pkl and others have lots of experiance and contacts who can guide things, and we have members who can make it work.

The only problem I can see is getting the other groups onside !

Already one or two see it as a risk to thier status, they are not happy that another group is trying to push forward where they have either failed or half heartdly gone along with things.

Of course, there are always going to be dissagreements on best practice, but if we can get to stage one, and get basic agreement on the plan, then drawing them up souldnt be hard, again lets face it, we want the best for our animals, and for our hobby, so we should all be coming to the same reasoning !

Or are we??


----------



## ratboy

captaincaveman said:


> Im not sure how it has anything to do with morphs? i remember going to shows 15 years back where there were still small boxes piled up(exactly the same as you see now), but full of non morph snakes


The conversation is about now, not what happened 15 years ago. Although you could argue that the only thing that has really changed in those 15 years is the shift from WC animals to the latest morphs.

It's a shame that not more has changed drastically.

This thread is about shops not being allowed to sell animals, which is a real possibility. It is also a real possibility that shows could be stopped in the next couple of years or so too under the AWA... If both of these things happen... where are our animals going to come from and who are breeders going to sell them to ?

We can argue about what has changed until the cows come home, but unless we actually DO something to protect our hobby it's going to dry up before our very eyes.


----------



## SiUK

theres too much discussing things and not enough action IMO, I admit I wouldnt have a clue where to start, who to speak to or anything but thats where Rory could come in with his contacts and knowledge, I think some good ideas were discussed last night, not too abitious to be be impossible, but whats the likely hood of anything coming of it?

I think it will get discussed on here, then forgotten and we will be back to the usual threads letting people know how bad it all is, and talking about how the hobbies disapearing.


----------



## ratboy

SiUK said:


> theres too much discussing things and not enough action IMO, I admit I wouldnt have a clue where to start, who to speak to or anything but thats where Rory could come in with his contacts and knowledge, I think some good ideas were discussed last night, not too abitious to be be impossible, but whats the likely hood of anything coming of it?
> 
> I think it will get discussed on here, then forgotten and we will be back to the usual threads letting people know how bad it all is, and talking about how the hobbies disapearing.


So do something about it. Assuming you are a member of the IHS, there is nothing stopping you approaching them and talking to them about shows and where they intend to go with them.


----------



## SiUK

SiUK said:


> theres too much discussing things and not enough action IMO, *I admit I wouldnt have a clue where to start, who to speak to* *or anything* but thats where Rory could come in with his contacts and knowledge, I think some good ideas were discussed last night, not too abitious to be be impossible, but whats the likely hood of anything coming of it?
> 
> I think it will get discussed on here, then forgotten and we will be back to the usual threads letting people know how bad it all is, and talking about how the hobbies disapearing.


I wouldnt know what to do, if for example the PKL decided that aproaching the IHS about shows is a good idea, then what would be the next step. Write them a letter what would I put im not a letter writer, would they listen to a 21 year old that they have never heard of I considerably doubt it.


----------



## RoninUK

Snakes r grreat said:


> Firstly, this was a discussion on banning *shop* sales, not private sales, yet!
> 
> As for the 'industry', the problem is that at the moment, they are too scared to stand up to them, as it will bring them the wrath of the anti's, so as sympathetic as they are, they stay quiet, they are all aware of the problem already, believe me! So they stay quiet at the moment, new laws are introduced, they go along with them on the whole. Then the EU/government move to introduce a law that they dont like, they will stand up at some point, but how much have they lost already, how much damaged will they have done to themselves already, and how hard will they find it to stand up.
> 
> Also, bear in mind that a company like Pedigree Chum are owned by the same people who own Mars, they are in the US, they do a thriving trade around the globe, do they really need to fight a battle for the UK, when they have so much more going on elsewhere??? This goes for many other Pet Supplies, most of the major ones are not UK owned!


But the multinationals do not respond to a problem once it arises - they have legal teams and very powerful political lobbying machinery to head off problems before they become fact - and could easily overmatch the RSPCA or other antis with the resources available to them. They do not let problems arise in one market in case it spreads to others - especially in confederations like the EU.

I don't agree that the work of the antis will be a major factor in this since they know the support of the pro pet lobby (with most UK homes including pets of one sort or another) would more than offset the anti's activities and for a pet food manufactures standing up to "terrorist" tactics by groups trying to infringe the rights of pet owners would be a great marketing ploy.

They have an economic clout with governments that will count for more than any amount of moralistic lobbying by antis.


----------



## Snakes r grreat

Theres an old saying, 'Rome wasnt built in a day'.

This is the case with PKL, things wont happen over night, Rory and others involved in this have full time jobs aswell, a living to earn, this is done in our spare time, after we have got home from work, spent some time with our families, cooked dinner etc. As more people come on board, things will get done quicker, information can be put accross better (i do agree there can be a lack of it sometimes), but this all takes time, time that is given freely, unlike OATA, we dont get paid for it! 

I would also like to point out to some that there is a place dedicated for you to voice your opinions, ideas, and information, without battering Rorys head in on this open forum. This at the moment is doing more harm than good, and i feel has put us back to where we were 6 weeks ago, the anti's must be loving this!!


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

Okay.

So yesterday was a confusing day.

I am a long winded fart, l am the first to acknowledge that feature, Nerys is the second to agree to that. But that is me.

But to clarify.

First off:

I did not consider what Dan said as a disagreement. Dan is frustrated like the rest of us. IF he wants to do something different, l am not going to get in his way. Yesterday l offered him a clear path into expressing his views about the way he thinks it should be done as my way is so appalling and wrong with my lack of ability to talk to people and my lack of memberships. I still see no new posts or an answer from Dan. 

Whilst l am not saying that Dans approach is right or wrong all l am saying and this point was apparently missed was - 'fine tell us, remind me especially as to what is was you continually point out in your answers to me about what it is that is the golden recipe for instant success and gratification to all the problems?'

The Fact is sadly there is no instant gratification here, this is the world of legislation, and politics and protocol and procedure and whether readers like it or not, things go at this pace.

PKL with its small membership at present, is growing. 196 signatures is nothing to be scoffed at, some societies do not have this figure after years, and NO that is not a dig at any society but it is a fact. We are at present a non paying membership lobby. We do have plans to make a membership fee next year. But only once we are able to establish how best to go forwards, how best to make the contributions of all the members count and so on.

At this present time, l am rather slow at getting all the members entered into a grid with which l can then allocate to the right research teams. But once l have all those members updated l can pass along all details to our membership secretary and she [Stubby] will then email all our members direct with updates on what we are doing and what help we need.

Right to my posting style and everything l actually write:

I work on emotions and figures, stats and data.

If l write in a pessimstic view style it is testing the readers emotions on the subject - how they feel. 

Apathy is here, perhaps not with many of the readers to this forum, but it is present. If you write in a particular way you can test the pyschology behind the responses and you can judge what and where to say what next. And then you can work out how to plan the campaign.

I have always said that RFUK forum is the launching pad for the campaigns for PKL, and this is true. 

It is here that l place polls, and check for response. Threads started to test how you react as keepers.

Team building is important for success, previous to this my expertise rested in retail in both training and management, and without a good solid and sound team, nothing can move forwards.We have key members in place whom are curently working on the campaign frontage as l write now.

Campaigns are an important way forwards.

PKL is still growing and we need input from people, one of the hardest elements l am trying to beat now is the fact that when l respond to a persons new application of which l always do, that email will always enter a persons spam folder and because of that, it is sometimes hard to get people to respond to a mail that has been destroyed.

What is PKL working on?

1] Recruitment
2] Team Building
3] Campaign construction
4] Identifying how the PKL can make the most impact with as little financial committment to begin with
5] Creating stronger brand awareness.

What are we specifically addressing?

EPS
Primates
Retail Aid
High Society
Unregulated Vendors
Freedom Foods
Worthy Of Investigation

Some of the above will immediately affect the reptile side, some will not. 
With High Society, society liasion and l are looking to on paper creating the societies 'perfect society' and then creating the realistic society so that we can work on a code of practice for the society and the shows.

But we are not discussing that fully here as of yet. But polls and threads created are helping us with our research.

Retail Aid, l am in the process of designing a package that will assist retailers for the present and the future and again a code of practice. I will discuss that in the future but it will be with the retailers themselves.

Unregulated Vendors is also something we are looking at very closely and does tie in with retail aid campaign.

So hopefully that might help some of the queries.

Okay

Finally 

The EPS campaign next step Si.

We tried to rally forwards a response from this forum to this legislation and quite a few have written. 

Once the membership grids are in the hands of the secretary, Stubby will email all of the PKL members asking for their committment to signatures and those signatures are required on the letter formats we have.

With this legislation we are at the mercy of the legislators, we will see what transpires there.

I have had considerations into a protest march outside the houses of parliament, but l would need to know how many of the membership would be up for that?

Also, scaremongering posts.

I am oft accused of this, l don't grade it as such, many of you do.

You do, because we are assailing you with many posts, threads and legis documents and it appears in no co-ordinated structure.

Well l will try to concentrate a structure for you, but the biggest problem we have is that next year 2008. There are so many things happening on that front. So many pieces of legislation, secondary, primary, cop's, consultations are coming out at great speed now that it is hard to concentrate. Hence why l am always building research teams to cope with this part of pkl alone.

You are assailed because 75% at present will affect all private keepers.

But l will try and make my writing style different from this point onwards, but tbh l am now dedicating a lot of my time to the campaigns, and as said l do have a lot of very strong and passionate pkl members present here anyway, so if something needs to be addressed they can write it is a more bulletted pointed way than l, lol.

Thanks for reading

Rory Matier
PKL


----------



## Snakes r grreat

RoninUK said:


> But the multinationals do not respond to a problem once it arises - they have legal teams and very powerful political lobbying machinery to head off problems before they become fact - and could easily overmatch the RSPCA or other antis with the resources available to them. They do not let problems arise in one market in case it spreads to others - especially in confederations like the EU.
> 
> I don't agree that the work of the antis will be a major factor in this since they know the support of the pro pet lobby (with most UK homes including pets of one sort or another) would more than offset the anti's activities and for a pet food manufactures standing up to "terrorist" tactics by groups trying to infringe the rights of pet owners would be a great marketing ploy.
> 
> They have an economic clout with governments that will count for more than any amount of moralistic lobbying by antis.


 
Have you spoken to the Head of Hagen Uk, Master Foods UK or Interpet UK in the last 12 months???


----------



## SiUK

Snakes r grreat said:


> I would also like to point out to some that there is a place dedicated for you to voice your opinions, ideas, and information, without battering Rorys head in on this open forum. This at the moment is doing more harm than good, and i feel has put us back to where we were 6 weeks ago, the anti's must be loving this!!


I dont think we are any further forward than we were 6-8-10 weeks ago, surely the anti's will be loving the fact that very few people have been taking hardly any interest for a long time now, at least now people are showing a bit of passion, we cant just go along not questioning whats happening when alot of people are starting to challenge whether its right or not. 

Not having ago mate, I respect what everyone is doing and I admire Rory for his views and the time he puts into the campaign I think he is a good person to lead it, but do you really think all these threads about how this is the end of animal keeping are moving us forward now? because I dont, I think they are holding back progress, the fact that this is an open forum gives everyone the chance to express their feelings people that wouldnt get a chance to otherwise, these are the people we need to get onside people that no nothing about it that come on here and see whats happening.


----------



## Snakes r grreat

SiUK said:


> I dont think we are any further forward than we were 6-8-10 weeks ago, surely the anti's will be loving the fact that very few people have been taking hardly any interest for a long time now, at least now people are showing a bit of passion, we cant just go along not questioning whats happening when alot of people are starting to challenge whether its right or not.
> 
> Not having ago mate, I respect what everyone is doing and I admire Rory for his views and the time he puts into the campaign I think he is a good person to lead it, but do you really think all these threads about how this is the end of animal keeping are moving us forward now? because I dont, I think they are holding back progress, the fact that this is an open forum gives everyone the chance to express their feelings people that wouldnt get a chance to otherwise, these are the people we need to get onside people that no nothing about it that come on here and see whats happening.


 
Why have you only chosen to quote half my message, especially as the first half has more reasoning to it!


----------



## SiUK

because that was the bit that had relevance in my answer, it was already discussed how things dont happen over night a few pages back.


----------



## Snakes r grreat

SiUK said:


> because that was the bit that had relevance in my answer, it was already discussed how things dont happen over night a few pages back.


And yet you chose to ignore reasons as to this.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

*Okay, let us get started*

Fine Si, 

Your points have been noted.

And taken on board just like everyones here in this thread have been.

But sadly, things do take time, this is as said not an instant gratification affair.

I wish to God it was and we could wave a magic wand over the whole thing and make it disappear, we can not and we must work at it.

But if we work as a team we can at least try and make a difference.

Rory


----------



## SiUK

Snakes r grreat said:


> And yet you chose to ignore reasons as to this.


I dont know what makes you say that. Where have I ignored the fact that they all work? nowhere, I said it wasnt a fast process, but we need to be looking for a way forward, which at the moment we dont appear to be moving forward, even in small ways like generating enthusiasm. Over the last few days I have seen the word "scaremongering" come up a few times, do you really think that, that is helping? if people are seriously begginning to think its scaremongering its time to try a different approach.


----------



## SiUK

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Fine Si,
> 
> Your points have been noted.
> 
> And taken on board just like everyones here in this thread have been.
> 
> But sadly, things do take time, this is as said not an instant gratification affair.
> 
> I wish to God it was and we could wave a magic wand over the whole thing and make it disappear, we can not and we must work at it.
> 
> But if we work as a team we can at least try and make a difference.
> 
> Rory


so do I mate, how easy it would be, thats why a few suggestions came up last night that I believe would help the cause small things that can be done or disscussed that would make an improvement to us in the hobby and outsiders if a law was to be taken into parliament, to ban shows and we had taken steps to improve the way shows are ran, surely that looks good for the pro keepers side?


----------



## Snakes r grreat

SiUK said:


> I dont know what makes you say that. Where have I ignored the fact that they all work? nowhere, I said it wasnt a fast process, but we need to be looking for a way forward, which at the moment we dont appear to be moving forward, even in small ways like generating enthusiasm. Over the last few days I have seen the word "scaremongering" come up a few times, do you really think that, that is helping? if people are seriously begginning to think its scaremongering its time to try a different approach.


 
I can see where you are coming from, but i still fail to see why you have chosen to do this here, instead of the place set up for it. Yes you want it out in the open, but do you not think that you are causing harm to PKL. Im not saying your not allowed an opinion, i am saying i think this could have been used in a better way.


----------



## SiUK

yes maybe you are right, and I apologise if people think I have damaged the campaign, but I truely believe from what I have read and heard the last few weeks that its starting to damage itself, thats why I think if people can see we are making changes and making new suggestions, maybe it will help to raise awareness and the all important word "enthusiasm". 

Like I said before I respect Rory alot and what he is doing, and I hope that we can make a difference, the last thing I want to do is fall out with people on the same side as me, that would be stupid, but I do feel a bit like its hard to question whats happening without being torn apart.


----------



## ratboy

Problem is, if you keep people informed as to what is going on you get slated for scaremongering.

If you don't keep people informed as to what is going on you get slated for not keeping people up to date.

Unfortunately the real answer to most of the points raised is that they will at best affect our hobby adversely and at worst they will end it. If the thread was opened and stated this will affect our hobby, but it's only species X and Y that will be affected, so that's OK, I for one would be fuming.

Equally unfortunately, in this type of forum, there is no such thing as good news. We are unlikely to see news that the anti animal keeping lobby have all given up and gone home which is the only good news there could be.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

*As said*

What PKL will do from this point onwards is continue to work at what we are working on. 

[Campaigns]

When we are ready to make a post, we will make those posts or start new threads and we will do so in a press release style.

This will be devoid of any 'scaremongering' as many of you refer to it as.

But if it is an emotive thread then we can not avoid that.

We will address everything to the reader as we deem necessary only for their information.

Will this be okay?

Rory


----------



## WeThePeople

Will the press releases only state facts or will there be a degree of speculation?


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

As said we will post what we believe is necessary for the private keeper to know.

These will be delivered in a bulletted point fact style.

Speculation is a funny thing WTP, it is down to a persons interpretation.

So l will repeat, we will post new movements only.

If the private keeper only wants to know facts then as and when we can deliver those facts we will do so.

R
PKL


----------



## ratboy

So the result of this thread then is that people are sick and tired of being told everything that is happening as it happens or even before it happens and only want to be updated when something is concrete then told what to write and who to write to.


----------



## SiUK

The thing is not only posting the threads in the style that have been posted, because there is need to make people realise but also trying to post some more positive aspects, ideas of what can be done and follow ups to whats being done, I know its not an overnight thing but little positive steps can be taken, so people dont just think "here we go again" as soon as they see a thread in this section. If you see what I mean, I think its important to post both sides and aspects to keep people involved.


----------



## RoninUK

Snakes r grreat said:


> Have you spoken to the Head of Hagen Uk, Master Foods UK or Interpet UK in the last 12 months???


No but I have considerable experience of the lobbying tactics of major companies from the other side of the fence.


----------



## Kylie

This would sadden me i think as long as the pet shop is checked regualrly to ensure the animals are being kept correctly and as long as the shop owner is resposible enough to question the buyer about care requirements then there is no reason why shops should cease to exist.

i would be gutted if they did close shops down and they pet trade ended it would encourage to much of the "back door" purchasing and too many idiots would get in on the act


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

I will restrict the 'elaborate writing skills' to the website for the start up of campaigns. There it will be based on facts, as well as what some people refer to as scaremongering, and mixed into speculation to form a grounding for people to decide how they wish.

I will raise this thread again in a non emotive fashion and see how that fares.

R


----------



## Kylie

why? everybody has a view and there will always be someone to disagree with that view no matter how you word the thread it will still mean the same thing some people will get upset some angry you will never be able to satisfy everyone leave the thread as it is it is what people believe and feel


----------



## SiUK

I think its getting pushed in the wrong direction here, we dont want you to stop doing what your doing Rory, your posts are always provocative, and they always raise discussion, but I think as well as that we need something so its not all doom and gloom, there has to be some positives doesnt there?


----------



## WeThePeople

ratboy said:


> So the result of this thread then is that people are sick and tired of being told everything that is happening as it happens or even before it happens and only want to be updated when something is concrete then told what to write and who to write to.


I cant speak for others but im sick of reading worst case scenarios as fact. "The RSPCA have said this, so in 3 years time all animals will be nuked off the face of the planet" Rather than "The RSPCA have said this and _it could lead too_ all animals being nuked off the face of the planet" There's never any middle ground so ive got bored of hearing it. 

There's no middle ground with PKL either, they are like my good friend George W Bush 'You are either with us or against us'.

I find them patronising and monotonous and im not the only one thinking so.


----------



## Nerys

we have to win some battles first Si.. in order to post a postive message..

otherwise.. what is Rory supposed to put..

"hey everyone i just had a really nice dinner"

or

"last night we did XYZ in the bedroom"

or

"look at the latest dumbass joke i found on the internet.."

as tbh, those sort of posts have most people on here far more interested than rorys normal posts.

when he does try and put something positive.. like PKL membership is growing... dear old Dan _"i never answer but love to point the finger none the less" _Fryer wades in and knocks him for it..

tbh si, having seen the stress is causes rory, at times i wish i had never suggested herpers and reptile forums as being a good launch pad..

everyone wants positive stories.. few it seems are willing to be part of the history that CREATES the positive story to begin with...

doom and gloom yes... but PKL members are the rays of light in the asshole tunnel of doom.. or at least... they TRY to be... :|

from little acorns, mighty trees doth grow... even if a few dogs DO piss on their trunks from time to time..

N


----------



## Genseric

Nerys said:


> we have to win some battles first Si.. in order to post a postive message..
> 
> otherwise.. what is Rory supposed to put..
> 
> "hey everyone i just had a really nice dinner"
> 
> or
> 
> "last night we did XYZ in the bedroom"
> 
> or
> 
> "look at the latest dumbass joke i found on the internet.."
> 
> as tbh, those sort of posts have most people on here far more interested than rorys normal posts.
> 
> when he does try and put something positive.. like PKL membership is growing... dear old Dan _"i never answer but love to point the finger none the less" _Fryer wades in and knocks him for it..
> 
> tbh si, having seen the stress is causes rory, at times i wish i had never suggested herpers and reptile forums as being a good launch pad..
> 
> everyone wants positive stories.. few it seems are willing to be part of the history that CREATES the positive story to begin with...
> 
> doom and gloom yes... but PKL members are the rays of light in the asshole tunnel of doom.. or at least... they TRY to be... :|
> 
> from little acorns, mighty tree doth grow... *even if a few dogs DO piss on their trunks from time to time..*
> 
> N


Any dog pisses on my trunk I'll find a nice warm spot for my boot to reside.. btw I agree with N here, what the hell is he supposed to do? no one wants to know the piotential nasty stuff, and want the 'good' stories.. which *will *come, but only if people start to realise how bad this could become, and make an effort, *together*, to stop it in its tracks..


----------



## Dan

> I did not consider what Dan said as a disagreement. Dan is frustrated like the rest of us. IF he wants to do something different, l am not going to get in his way. Yesterday l offered him a clear path into expressing his views about the way he thinks it should be done as my way is so appalling and wrong with my lack of ability to talk to people and my lack of memberships. I still see no new posts or an answer from Dan.
> 
> Whilst l am not saying that Dans approach is right or wrong all l am saying and this point was apparently missed was - 'fine tell us, remind me especially as to what is was you continually point out in your answers to me about what it is that is the golden recipe for instant success and gratification to all the problems?'
> 
> The Fact is sadly there is no instant gratification here, this is the world of legislation, and politics and protocol and procedure and whether readers like it or not, things go at this pace.


Before i start i would like to request that, other than responses to this post (if someone should feel it needed) i am no longer refered to in any posts on this subject. I have had enough and want nothing further to do with what the PKL (or other clone groups) have to say or do.

Rory, i'd like to start by showing you some quotes from my post yesterday:



> *If my posts are tiresome i'll call it a day. This will be my last on the matter and you can go back to believing that the majority of people actually read your posts rather than glaze over them.*





> *Support could have been here by the lorry load by now but because you can't talk to people in a manner they understand you have next to no support.*





> *Yes, i am sure someone will say i should be doing something rather than moaning as they always do. This is not possible though i'm afraid as i have more debt than a small African country....*




As you can see i stated yesterday that it was my last post on the subject so why i would take any opportunities that you "offer" me i honestly don't know.
Further to this i am suprised that you would honestly think i need someone to offer me the chance to say my thoughts.
As for the content, ie this golden recipe. I seem to remember telling you quite clearly my thoughts on this subject way back when the PKL first started up. 
When you wanted someone to look at the PKL website before announcing its existance a phone call was good enough, when you wanted statement lines an email was good enough. Yet all of a sudden everything i have said on how to move this all forward has dissapeered from memory?

On the note of why i am not doing something myself. I'm not going to get into a pi**ing match with you over who has more debt than the other. That is my main reason, while you may object to it, i have no good reason to justify it to anyone other than myself.

SO, you want my recipe? One more time, just for fun:

*Identify the people you are talking to -*
*"Exotic keepers" is too broad a group, pick a group to focus on within that or within the PKL, split the group down and form work groups to target each sub-group.*

*Elect speakers-*
*Choose people who can talk to others on a level they understand. A politician to talk to a layman or vice versa is no good (use those as an example).*

*Make posts readable - *
*Any more than 10 lines to a post and you risk people glossing over it. Use the power of the net to your advantage. Use links to break up text for example.*

*Get members first -*
*Get member numbers up and then spread the bad news. Telling people bad news will only get you one sort of person rather than a good proportion.*

*Bin miserable posts - *
*If you have nothing good to say on an open forum then don't say it at all. Word of mouth will spread your bad news if you have good member numbers. Rather than force bad news on people trying to relax and enjoy their hobby give them something to do or something to smile about.*

*Stop being agressive - *
*As soon as you tell someone "you MUST listen" they turn off. Give up fighting the apathy battle, you will NOT win. Work with what you've got not with what you could have.*

*Money - *
*Implement your fee charges. There are a million ways to make money, try them all (before condemning them) and see what you get at the end. Make payment options as WIDE as possible, remember many internet users are just kids and don't have credit cards etc. One idea for you, have a premium number set up and ask people to ring you for a minute every week (or when ever). *

*KISS - *
*Keep it simple stupid. This is a HOBBY for many people, don't forget that. Making anything even slightly taxing will just reduce your chances of success. Everything must be so simple that even idiots can do it. *


*So, there you go. My golden recipe. If you apply the above notes to what you are doing, you will not fail.*

This is quite definately my last post on this subject. Just so you know i'm not angry, frustrated or upset. I simply don't care anymore. I genuinely do wish you the VERY best of luck but i know that unless you change your tactics you will fail.


----------



## Kylie

WELL SAID NERYS!! if we arent informed of possiblities how can we be prepared them? if we where informed a month before it all came into play how would we feel then. I personally feel if something could happen and i could help stop it or help prevent it then i would rather know years in advance anything is possible. You can not change the past yet you can change and influence the future and i think that is the aim of this thread people need to know what "could" happen in order to be able to help towards changing it


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

Well good to see you are still around Dan.

Thanks for the input.

R
PKL


----------



## Nerys

lol, tbh.. with "friends" like WeThePeople.. who needs the antis and rscpa... 

 

out of interest WTP. what do you actually keep, and how long have you been a keeper of the various animals you have?

just being nosy really, i like to know a little about peoples background.. i'm very open about what i keep and so on.. my pic is plastered all over the sites.. i am, as much as i can be, shown to be a real person who is not hidden behind an internet identity.

as everyone can find out, i am Nerys Garbett, an animal keeper of over 25 years, with a broad personal and scientific knowledge of a large range of life forms.. (and fossils, but thats another thing) I am 33, and currently keep some 600-800 animals encompassing many basic species groups.. canine, feline, avian, marsupial, mustlid, reptile, amphibian, inverts, acquatic, equine.. you get the idea.. 

my life, has always had animals off all sorts.. i am not an animal snob.. one is as good as the next.. and all are affected.. or could be.. by the fact i live in a democratic country and i could, in the future, be told how and what i could keep by people who have not got a clue what they are talking about...

is that a gloomy thought? too right it is!

N

(hello dan.. fancy you popping up again... do you get online much these days? i know you also use the "show offline" facility, so its hard to know how much time you get to spend on all this.. i know rory is at it 40 hours a week or more at times.. but then getting involved does require a _consistant_ input.. dipping in and out would limit you somewhat wouldn't it..)


----------



## brittone05

Totally agree Zippy 

What would be the point of rory coming on and saying "we need to raise funds", "we need to increase numbers" - the what Rory comes online nad syas "by the way while we were piddling about and pussy footing around so as not to upset people, the RSPCA/DEFRa/Animal Aid/CAPS have managed to get XXX piece of legislation moved in thier favour".

do nay of you honestly beleive that other than the blatant campaigns to raie money with little kittens on, the RSPCa care about keepers feelings on emotive subjects?

I know it is difficult reading thread after thread of what is set to go before government and the changes it could include but keep in your mind's eye while reading htem that this isn't just about US as keepers, it is about your kids. When they grow up and get the passion in them that drives us all what will happen? they will not have the freedom of choice to own such species that wehave the privilege to do so FOR NOW!!

People can throw ideas up int he air - most of the ideas on most of the threads are seemingly do-able and some have been wonderful I think. But without the support of all the keepers who are having an input, how can PKl hope to move forwards in ven a small way?


----------



## leptophis

so after all this discussion what actually are we going to do,


----------



## Kylie

thanks brittone05 glad someone has the same view as if its not hard enough for rory not only does he have animal groups on his back but also the people who are supposed to have passion and drive for the hobby! i find it very strange that so many people jump on the offensive without seeing a bigger picture it will happen only WE as keepers and hobbiests can change it!


----------



## ratboy

leptophis said:


> so after all this discussion what actually are we going to do,


Now there's a good question


----------



## Nerys

ZIPPY&VESPA said:


> WELL SAID NERYS!! if we arent informed of possiblities how can we be prepared them? if we where informed a month before it all came into play how would we feel then. I personally feel if something could happen and i could help stop it or help prevent it then i would rather know years in advance anything is possible. You can not change the past yet you can change and influence the future and i think that is the aim of this thread people need to know what "could" happen in order to be able to help towards changing it


there are always a few people who would rather leave their heads in the sand and hope the hurricane does not shoot right up their arse tbh..

always the way.. its human nature, there are the Do-ers.. and there are not.. there are the doubters and there are the people who are too scared to come off the fence they are wobbling along.. 

for many people, it is easy to knock someone who had made an effort, than it is to make the effort themselves..

is far easier to moan and whine.. 

"you are all doing it wrong and i hate you *stamps feet*"

than it is to actually put up or shut up. 
to actually CREATE not desroy.. 
to be PRO-Active.. not reactive
to put money where mouth is and do something about it.

far easier.. to sit at a desk nursing a luke warm cup of coffee.. and belittle those who are at least trying to make an effort.. makes you look much better in the eyes of your peers... honest..

dan, one of the few times i ahve seen you take action indpendently...

was when, if you recall, you screen dumped a load of images from RORYS SITE.. posted anonymously on THIS FORUM.. and asked for money without giving people anything about who you were!

so much for having your own ideas and beliefs on how this should be done.. you could not even think of your own images. you had to steal rorys!! which are right click protected.. and you STILL used them!!!

(in fact thats how i got talking to R to begin with dan, so in honesty i have you to thank for us getting together in a way.. what an admission *groan* i mailed him to say "is this you" and found it was not!!)

this thread..

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/general-herp-chat/34461-looking-help.html

and yes i backed it at the time, as i recognised the imagery as belonging to Rory, and thought it was an initiative of his..

why did you not post openly there Dan? as Dan Fryer.. like i post as Nerys, and rory as Rory.. why the secrecy? what hidden agenda was there that meant you felt the need to hide your ID ?

N

N


----------



## Nerys

in fact, i would like to ask you

WeThePeople..

can you acutally tell me what you personally have done in reference the future of keeping of animals of any sort. have you done anything at all? other than read the posts on here and disagree with them?

if we are so bad, you must have something so much better.. right? 

what is this please. so we might all benefit from it?

and dan.. dan. dan. dan..

I genuinely do wish you the VERY best of luck but i know that unless you change your tactics you will fail.

what tactics have you used successfully in the past, present, or may do in the future.. what have you done thats so much better? (bar screen dumping someone elses artwork on a hidden ID forum thread) 

Dan, where are these 1500 people who would join a society over night? where is this plan for a tv ad campaign? has anyone actually bothered to call and cost it? NO have they hell lol...

these golden rules of yours..why have YOU not applied them to your own group and made a success of that?

but oh.. how handy.. you will not post anymore on this topic.. well thats pretty bloody convenient isn't it.. next thing we'll have WTP sticking us on ignore.. like thats the mature and well rounded thing to do of course!!!!

N


----------



## SiUK

I still strongly think that the tactics at the moment are not gaining support that is needed, you can talk about burying heads in sand and showing apathy, but thats not going to change the fact that, thats whats happening. 

What steps the PKL are doing need to be clearly stated in a thread, I still think a sticky at the top of the section explaining what the PKL are and what the goals are is needed, because I have seen people start threads asking about it, what about the people that dont start threads, do they just ignore the section because its not easy to see what its all about.

You can say all these things about apathy and would people rather not know about it until its too late, but the bottom line is, if people are no longer taking it seriously or not caring because all they ever see is doom and gloom then its not working.

Maybe targeting another of the big UK exotics forums is one way to draw in more people?


----------



## WeThePeople

Nerys im not sure what your getting at with my ID, my username on here says more about me than my real name. Not using my real name doesnt make me any less real than you nor does it make my opinions any less relavent does it?

My real name is on here as are pictures of me, its no secret I just choose to go by WeThePeople because it says more about another passion of mine and more about me than my real name ever could.

What does my experience or what animals i keep have anything to do with the future of the hobby?

Just because ive done very little to support the hobby it doesnt mean i dont care and am not entitled to an opinion does it? My spare time is given to what i think is a better cause, im not trying to belittle saving animals or say its anymore worthy of anyones time its just i prefer to put my time and effort into that. I do a lot for people with mental illness, if you dont does it mean you dont care? does it mean you cant have an opinion or have it voiced? Does it mean if your not fighting for the rights of people with mental illness that you dont care about them? Do you have to be with me or against me? Is it that black and white?


----------



## Snakes r grreat

SiUK said:


> Maybe targeting another of the big UK exotics forums is one way to draw in more people?


To answer this question for you Si, PKL have members on other forums, however, the topics such as legislation are not there at present and we have to await topics to arise before we can address them. Also, not all forums want to cover politics because it can damage their business, or their readerships. PKL will always be thankful to Chris - TBO for his support of our postings and threads'

Jack 

On behalf of PKL


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

Si, 

Not being funny but which parts of my posts are you not understanding?

You want to see what is being done?

You keep asking this over and over again.

Stop.

Read the posts back on this thread alone, and you will see what we are working on, what we are planning to do.

Whether it is a sticky or not is irrelevant people view what they wish to view and whether they wish to post or not.

I asked this forum if we could have this forum underneath General Herp section for the EPS campaign alone.

I do not stipulate that TBO must do this, it is if he has the time, and l also asked for him to confer with the moderators on this.

Because at the end of the day Si, we are a minority of writers who hold quite alarming posts if we were really let loose.

People will read what they want to read and to coign Dans' word will gloss over also what they wish to do.

I will not discuss my tactics on this forum and if you wish to see tactics, l will discuss what is relevant.

I will indue course relay to this forum, the facts that they request.

What is becoming clear and clearer is that people want to see less information and not more of it. They want to see facts and my fear is that when hard facts are present then we are past the what we can do about the phase but heading down the reality phase.

What this forum wants to know is, is, is......and when l have all those is's identified, then l will know exactly what l can post and what people do not want to see posted.

The PKL forum as you well know is the forum for tactics and that is what we discuss with our PKL members of which you are also one. Read up there and then you will know why l do not wish to discuss strategy so openly.

R
PKL


----------



## captaincaveman

I see its come to a slanging match again, nothing changes, how can the hobby move forward if people cant refrain from insults, whats the bet this thread ends up getting locked


----------



## SiUK

Im just trying to think of ways to get more people interested again, what I think it boils down to is, people dont like the constant negativity, I know this is part and parcel of it, but like I said a page or so back, people are now accusing it of being scaremongering people are asking myself included where the info is coming from, im not alone in wondering this and alot more people have been questioning it recently, this is what needs addressing IMO, the PKL dont want to push people away, we need to draw more people in. Im going to stay out of the thread for now, because I dont want to go around in circles, I understand and respect everyones points of view.


----------



## Andy

Personally I dont do much for my hobby, if anything, so appreciate whoever is trying to help. I wont try putting someone down when I am not doing anything myself.


----------



## Snakes r grreat

captaincaveman said:


> I see its come to a slanging match again, nothing changes, how can the hobby move forward if people cant refrain from insults, whats the bet this thread ends up getting locked


I see no real reason for it to be locked, IMO its no where near as bad as the standard slanging matches, its an open discussion. Heated yes, being directly rude? No in my opinion.


----------



## ratboy

SiUK said:


> Im just trying to think of ways to get more people interested again, what I think it boils down to is, people dont like the constant negativity


Can you tell me anything about the state of the hobby at the moment that is positive ?


----------



## Nerys

> Just because ive done very little to support the hobby it doesnt mean i dont care


right.. gosh yes... i would say i agree... but i don't.. turn it the other way.. if you care about the hobby, why have you done so little to support it?

nothing is ever black and white.. white is all colours after all.. as is black.. two ends of a scale that covers all..

if i have to be black or white.. rather that than colourless..



> What does my experience or what animals i keep have anything to do with the future of the hobby?


not a lot, seeing as you are largely inactive within it anyway. but i like to know my subject. hence asking.. call it learning the grey between the black and white bits.

bearing in mind this is not a mental health forum.. i won't bring my personal experiences with mental health patients into it.. whaddya want to know about. self harm? depression? breakdown? sucididal? i deal with the after effects of that sort of history on a daily basis as it goes.. suffice to say i do things with both physically and mentally disabled people.. its just rare i bring it up on a reptilian based forum

all this with me or against me.. this is your phrase, not ours..

we think more.. 

with us.. or can't be arsed..

N


----------



## Genseric

What i am sensing here is frustration.,. people are frustrated as they don't know everything, others are frustrated because they can't tell everything they know.. and not for want of trying from either side.

My solution is simple, lets just get our collective heads together and work out a path that will help us all. Actually, that does sound too simple to be true, doesn't it? :beer8:

Regardless of differences, we are only as strong as our weakest member, and our differences will make us stronger, as it makes us multi faceted.


----------



## SiUK

I dont think its going over the top, for me I think valid points are being discussed.

I see what you mean, about positive things in the hobby, but I dont know what to suggest, I just feel that people are getting more and more sceptical, of the campaigning, which is not a good thing so maybe its time to think about a change in tactics, maybe im wrong, maybe im right its hard to know for sure because there is no neutral partys in this. I apologise if I have offended anybody. I just think its important to have my say.


----------



## Nerys

Snakes r grreat said:


> I see no real reason for it to be locked, IMO its no where near as bad as the standard slanging matches, its an open discussion. Heated yes, being directly rude? No in my opinion.


agree with that... this is nothing lol... trust me, from someone who has been and sometimes still is _exceptionally_ rude on forums.. this is just word craft and sentance byplay.

N


----------



## brittone05

Andy said:


> Personally I dont do much for my hobby, if anything, so appreciate whoever is trying to help. I wont try putting someone down when I am not doing anything myself.


Amen to that Andy - at least oyu openly admit that you have the gratitude not to rip apart those who are trying hard to make things better   

I can get that some people will attack that which they do not understand - it has happened many times throughout history after all but the final solutionto it time nad time again has been to learn more, to discuss more, to take action and sometimes to work alongisde and support it even when you are uncertain of the meanings behind eveyrthing.

I do, and will, keep repeating my thoughts that I don't fully understand - maybe I am a thinker by nature because if I don't understand osmething, I slowly take it on board nad discover all I can about it.

Kind of like wheny ou wnt a new species of reptile - you study it, learn all you can about it and then you think about actually getting it. This is what the legislational side is like for me. I am putting down my Dean Koontz and James Paterson and reading the AWA and stuff instead because I want to understand what we are up against and not have to revert to being frustrated at now knowing what things mean


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

Well said LEV.NI.

Look everybody, just stop and calm down.

Okay, l have stated what we will be displaying from this point onwards, simple.

PKL can only do so much and l repeat it is not just the reptile side that we look at, but all fraternities and all angles.

PKL represents or wants to represent the keeper, but things take time, we simply can not just make things happen.

You want facts.

Fine then is what you will get.

You want to know what to do.

Well simple, anything that you believe will help your respective hobbies.

Write to your MP's daily, write to DEFRA, support the EPS campaign, Join PKL or join your local society.

But when we can clearly hall mark topics we will, and let you know.

The Forums represent a small percentage of the overall hobby, they represent 5% if that of the entire landbased community.

Forums are not the centre of the universe for any given fraternity BUT, they are the meeting place of many. Which is why l wanted to use the forum side as the launch pad, we would be able to get a whole wealth of data from all sorts of keepers on here and know how to plan the campaigns. So we do take on board what you say, and yes perhaps we are doomy and gloomy, but you are the bench press for us so we know 'how to' compared to how not to.

Look there is no golden ruling to how this has to be done, the RSPCA, DEFRA, antis have got years on us, so now we are trying to do something about it.

FFS even l can make mistakes, no one is perfect, but we are trying to combat it, but now everything legislational wise is kicking off and l only have one head and two hands. Which is why, why l am trying to build the teams first with the right people so we can all concentrate in our specialised areas.

There we go, strategy one:

Identification - Dan see, but it does not happen overnight

There is nothing exciting about the display of tactical movement, it is basically what we can achieve as a group, as a lobby that is important.

So please, all l ask of you is a little patience.

You have made it clear what you do not wish to see, and that has been taken on board.

R
PKL


----------



## WeThePeople

Nerys said:


> agree with that... this is nothing lol... trust me, from someone who has been and sometimes still is _exceptionally_ rude on forums.. this is just word craft and sentance byplay.
> 
> N


How very lady like 

I dont see how i can put all my spare time into everything i care about, i understand why you dont think i care enough - because i clearly dont, but it doesnt mean i dont care.

The mental health thing is an anology, its what i put my spare time into, any time i put into saving reptiles from the anti's is less time spent helping people with mental health. And id sooner do that than anything else.

Are you questioning me because your another who thinks im the same wethepoeple posting on other forums? I can assure you that im not him, i hadnt even heard of him till i was accused of being him.


----------



## captaincaveman

Im still waiting for the general flaming on my idea of "approved dealers/shops", as someone else mentioned its used in certain other areas and our hobby does need some housework to stop some of the ammunition thats out there to catch us

Ive been to a few shops this year, if iwas an anti wirth a camera, i would have so much ammunition to throw at us that it would be embarassing

surely issues like that, and public shows need to be a priority for the hobby, how can we promote the well educated responsible keepers with good standards, if we allow the majority of our shows and a certain percentage of shops to not stick to the basics(eg clean water, cleaning poo etc)


All i was saying is that surely a clean house, is the best way forward for other issues


----------



## Nerys

si, i think people will always be sceptical, its the way humans are constructed.. we are taught to question and query.. which is not a bad thing, you cannot learn if you never ask..

trouble is, PKL is still an infant in terms of time.. infants crap themselves at times.. sometimes they wobble as they walk.. certainly they dribble a lot.. but as they grow and as they learn.. then slowly the parts become a whole..

we can't do it overnight, we can't do it in just a month.. we can't tell you what we have not done... if there was positive things to say, do you not think we would say them? when we do win a battle, by christ you will not hear the end of it!

nothing like this was ever acheived overnight.. slowly slowly catchee monkey.. we may lose a few of the people with less backbones than others over this year yes, but we will also know what we have at the end of it.. where our strenghts lie.. who we can rely on.. who are the do-ers and not just the forum-pram-pushers..

we are learning too.. as you are... as we all are.. it takes more then one.. two.. or ten people to make something happen.. the more people we get involved.. the harder it becomes to ahve a focus too.. give us time and patience and support, and we will do the best we can, given what we can.

if that is not enough for some people.. well.. then i would like to see them do something off their own back without bitching about those who are for once!!!

money - put it where your mouth is.. if you do not like our style, there is nothing to stop you creating your own...

just do something.. anything..

if half the people on this post alone took their eyes off girls who squirt for more than 30 seconds.. well.. nuff said.. people on forums would rather get squirted on it seems, than they would progress ideas about reptile keeping.. tbh, it says it all really..

N


----------



## ratboy

captaincaveman said:


> Ive been to a few shops this year, if iwas an anti wirth a camera, i would have so much ammunition to throw at us that it would be embarassing
> 
> surely issues like that, and public shows need to be a priority for the hobby, how can we promote the well educated responsible keepers with good standards, if we allow the majority of our shows and a certain percentage of shops to not stick to the basics(eg clean water, cleaning poo etc)
> 
> 
> All i was saying is that surely a clean house, is the best way forward for other issues



Thank you Jay  A well worded post of points I was trying to raise throughout this thread before it became a "What's wrong with PKL" session.


----------



## Genseric

Nerys said:


> si, i think people will always be sceptical, its the way humans are constructed.. we are taught to question and query.. which is not a bad thing, you cannot learn if you never ask..
> 
> trouble is, PKL is still an infant in terms of time.. infants crap themselves at times.. sometimes they wobble as they walk.. certainly they dribble a lot.. but as they grow and as they learn.. then slowly the parts become a whole..
> 
> we can't do it overnight, we can't do it in just a month.. we can't tell you what we have not done... if there was positive things to say, do you not think we would say them? when we do win a battle, by christ you will not hear the end of it!
> 
> nothing like this was ever acheived overnight.. slowly slowly catchee monkey.. we may lose a few of the people with less backbones than others over this year yes, but we will also know what we have at the end of it.. where our strenghts lie.. who we can rely on.. who are the do-ers and not just the forum-pram-pushers..
> 
> we are learning too.. as you are... as we all are.. it takes more then one.. two.. or ten people to make something happen.. the more people we get involved.. the harder it becomes to ahve a focus too.. give us time and patience and support, and we will do the best we can, given what we can.
> 
> if that is not enough for some people.. well.. then i would like to see them do something off their own back without bitching about those who are for once!!!
> 
> money - put it where your mouth is.. if you do not like our style, there is nothing to stop you creating your own...
> 
> just do something.. anything..
> 
> *if half the people on this post alone took their eyes off girls who squirt for more than 30 seconds.. well.. nuff said.. people on forums would rather get squirted on it seems, than they would progress ideas about reptile keeping.. tbh, it says it all really..*
> 
> N


Now don't go ruining my internetz perving ffs :lol2:


----------



## Nerys

me, a lady lol... we clearly have not met... *grins*

why am i questioning you.. because its what i do i guess... i learn by asking questions.. without gaining knowledge, i do not learn!

N








WeThePeople said:


> How very lady like
> 
> I dont see how i can put all my spare time into everything i care about, i understand why you dont think i care enough - because i clearly dont, but it doesnt mean i dont care.
> 
> The mental health thing is an anology, its what i put my spare time into, any time i put into saving reptiles from the anti's is less time spent helping people with mental health. And id sooner do that than anything else.
> 
> Are you questioning me because your another who thinks im the same wethepoeple posting on other forums? I can assure you that im not him, i hadnt even heard of him till i was accused of being him.


----------



## Nerys

LeviathanNI said:


> Now don't go ruining my internetz perving ffs :lol2:


lol, you know what i mean tho.. if pkl posted an image of one of our better looking members with her baps out draped over a pkl logo.. it would get more hits in a few hours than some of these do in a week!

N


----------



## ratboy

Nerys said:


> me, a lady lol... we clearly have not met... *grins*


Someone called you young earlier too


----------



## ratboy

Nerys said:


> lol, you know what i mean tho.. if pkl posted an image of one of our better looking members with her baps out draped over a pkl logo.. it would get more hits in a few hours than some of these do in a week!
> 
> N


Now there's a plan !!!!


----------



## Genseric

Nerys said:


> lol, you know what i mean tho.. if pkl posted an image of one of our better looking members with her baps out draped over a pkl logo.. it would get more hits in a few hours than some of these do in a week!
> 
> N


 
i would say something would be getting a few slaps.... but of course you are right. I'll maybe ring a few model friends and see if they will pose nude with a few reps 


As long as they don't want paid obviously lol

Or.. maybe a few members would be interested in doing pics for a callender.. I certainly would do it. I haven't any baps however...


----------



## Nerys

mind you.. you should have seen rory posing yesterday with wilma.. seductively draped over the top of the meerkats pen.. rory i mean.. draped.. not wilma.. she was just sat looking at us with a ???? in her eyes! things you do for the nationals..

see.. si.. wtp.. we DO do fun things too.. we don't just sit about weeping and wailing all day...

we were discussing having a pkl xmas pissup the other day.... 

anyway..

N


----------



## Nerys

i used to do modeling.. never worked with any animals tho.. unless you count some of the photographers..

N



LeviathanNI said:


> i would say something would be getting a few slaps.... but of course you are right. I'll maybe ring a few model friends and see if they will pose nude with a few reps
> 
> 
> As long as they don't want paid obviously lol
> 
> Or.. maybe a few members would be interested in doing pics for a callender.. I certainly would do it. I haven't any baps however...


----------



## SiUK

Nerys said:


> mind you.. you should have seen rory posing yesterday with wilma.. seductively draped over the top of the meerkats pen.. rory i mean.. draped.. not wilma.. she was just sat looking at us with a ???? in her eyes! things you do for the nationals..
> 
> see.. si.. wtp.. we DO do fun things too.. we don't just sit about weeping and wailing all day...
> 
> we were discussing having a pkl xmas pissup the other day....
> 
> anyway..
> 
> N


:lol2: its not all doom and gloom then.


----------



## captaincaveman

Nerys said:


> i used to do modeling.. never worked with any animals tho.. unless you count some of the photographers..
> 
> N


is that you putting yourself forward for it then?:lol2:


----------



## Genseric

It is certainly something we could look at.. I mean I'm not exactly happy with getting my pic taken, byut I would do it in order to raise the profile and maybe a few quid to broaden our scope/range


----------



## Nerys

ummm... maybe... would it increase our popularity do you think :lol2:

young yes steve lol.. i may be 33 but i got ID'd _AGAIN_ just last week.. muppets..

si.. the daft thing is, rory is one of the funniest people i know.. he has me in tears at times with his antics and the way he says things and does things.. he's known for being a good party guest as he has an endless suply of hugely funny tales.. sunday evening as we were chasing chickens round a field in norwich after the show. with a total stranger and her family.. she turned to me at the end and said "what a good humoured man your rory is" and i just thought, yes, spot on there 

its a shame, that the people on here rarely get to see his human side, i'm with him for a bloody good reason.. he is a bloody nice man.. ok. long winded and boring at times, he stamps and paces and shouts with the best of them, but thats all part of what he is.. its a shame you lot do not get to see the sides i do.. 

N


----------



## brittone05

Lol I second the fact that Rory is a fab bloke - my hubby is THe most sociopathic men you na meet - he hates everyone, everything and does not like meeting new people or me bringing people hw does not know into our home - he and Rory sat nettering for an age about all kinds (whilst me and Nerys proceeded to lug big things around in the back of a tranny van lol) and after they had left at about errr 3am!! my hubby proceded to tell me how he was glad he had met Rory cos he was a really great, downt o earth guy   So, maybe next time some of you decide to slate him for all you are worth, remember he does have felings aside from the PKL work he does  

On a birghter note - I am not model material in any way shape or form but am happy to help put some work together should it go ahead - am a bit okay on photoshop


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

> _Ive been to a few shops this year, if iwas an anti wirth a camera, i would have so much ammunition to throw at us that it would be embarassing
> surely issues like that, and public shows need to be a priority for the hobby, how can we promote the well educated responsible keepers with good standards, if we allow the majority of our shows and a certain percentage of shops to not stick to the basics(eg clean water, cleaning poo etc) All i was saying is that surely a clean house, is the best way forward for other issues_


The problem associated with cleaning up the house would be that any voluntary codes of practice for shops would be just that - voluntary, the goods shops would adopt and embrace them, the bad shops would just ignore them and carry on being bad. It is a step in the right direction but would not eradicate the bad pet shops. Any codes of practice would be worthless unless recognised by the public as having worth so that they could make the informed choice. Yes there should be some universal goal posts but the public needs to know how to recognise them. The vast majority of people buying reptiles these days are not hobbiests, they dont read forums, they dont belong to societys or groups and I dont think they would want to, they are mums and dads, young and old couples & individuals buying pets, not forumites, not die hard hobbiests they just want a pet that happens to be a reptile. Its these people that need to be reached, preached & converted. The only way to do that is through advertising, be it in a shop leaflet or a magazine article. 

It would cost about £150 for a 1/4 page ad in a very small pet orientated publication that is distributed for free to a major pet retail chain, out of about 20,000 readers, you would get about 100 website hits and out of those 100 hits, you would get about 1 person donate. So this is no easy task for anyone to take on. 

So basically what I am trying to say is that the whole reptile/exotics shops and shows as we know it, needs a clean up. Some goal posts and standards, recognition for achieving it and heres the hardest bit - getting the public to recognise the standard achieved so that they can avoid the "dirty" bits.


----------



## Athravan

I agree with what's been said above - how can you clean house when there aren't laws in place to force the bad shops to comply?

And if they do set laws - it's impossible to make sure they are laws which actually protect the hobby, because the keepers and shopkeepers aren't actually involved in making them.. so to call for tighter laws might end up backfiring and damaging everyone.

If a shop is being a problem and an embarrassment, and a quiet word from a member of public doesn't improve things - then there's very little you can do to force them to improve when there is no threat of punishment, and no direct reward being offered. Shops that don't care still won't care.. shops that do care are probably not the problem in the first place.

As for shows, I can very easily see how anti's would be against them, but they could find fault in pretty much anything unless you had animals in full size vivs with a plate full of food and water that had magically not spilt anywhere, and a full book being sold with every sale of an animal... and even then I bet they'd find fault. 

If we wanted to remove any fuel for the anti's regarding shows I think the shows would simply have to stop - and not many hobbyists want that.


----------



## SiUK

thats why maybe shops that are good and come up to scratch could go on a database of good petshops, me and CC were talking about it last night, something like the workmans guild, that works, shops could have stickers to say they are affiliated with it, if you see what I mean.


----------



## leptophis

as a shop i would be more than happy to have some scheme where we have to work to be part of the scheme, its good for everyone, incluiding us, education education and more education to btoh keepers and shops


----------



## SiUK

and who knows if it was successful it might encourage people not on it, to come up to scratch.


----------



## ratboy

leptophis said:


> as a shop i would be more than happy to have some scheme where we have to work to be part of the scheme, its good for everyone, incluiding us, education education and more education to btoh keepers and shops


This is what we need mate, the big boys like you to adopt and embrace a voluntary scheme which will make the smaller shops want to adopt it too. Problem is a lot of the big shops with hard earned reputations get slagged off on forums like this which would undo a lot of work in 10 minutes flat.


----------



## captaincaveman

pink said:


> The problem associated with cleaning up the house would be that any voluntary codes of practice for shops would be just that - voluntary, the goods shops would adopt and embrace them, the bad shops would just ignore them and carry on being bad. It is a step in the right direction but would not eradicate the bad pet shops. Any codes of practice would be worthless unless recognised by the public as having worth so that they could make the informed choice. Yes there should be some universal goal posts but the public needs to know how to recognise them. The vast majority of people buying reptiles these days are not hobbiests, they dont read forums, they dont belong to societys or groups and I dont think they would want to, they are mums and dads, young and old couples & individuals buying pets, not forumites, not die hard hobbiests they just want a pet that happens to be a reptile. Its these people that need to be reached, preached & converted. The only way to do that is through advertising, be it in a shop leaflet or a magazine article.
> 
> It would cost about £150 for a 1/4 page ad in a very small pet orientated publication that is distributed for free to a major pet retail chain, out of about 20,000 readers, you would get about 100 website hits and out of those 100 hits, you would get about 1 person donate. So this is no easy task for anyone to take on.
> 
> So basically what I am trying to say is that the whole reptile/exotics shops and shows as we know it, needs a clean up. Some goal posts and standards, recognition for achieving it and heres the hardest bit - getting the public to recognise the standard achieved so that they can avoid the "dirty" bits.





Athravan said:


> I agree with what's been said above - how can you clean house when there aren't laws in place to force the bad shops to comply?
> 
> And if they do set laws - it's impossible to make sure they are laws which actually protect the hobby, because the keepers and shopkeepers aren't actually involved in making them.. so to call for tighter laws might end up backfiring and damaging everyone.
> 
> If a shop is being a problem and an embarrassment, and a quiet word from a member of public doesn't improve things - then there's very little you can do to force them to improve when there is no threat of punishment, and no direct reward being offered. Shops that don't care still won't care.. shops that do care are probably not the problem in the first place.
> 
> As for shows, I can very easily see how anti's would be against them, but they could find fault in pretty much anything unless you had animals in full size vivs with a plate full of food and water that had magically not spilt anywhere, and a full book being sold with every sale of an animal... and even then I bet they'd find fault.
> 
> If we wanted to remove any fuel for the anti's regarding shows I think the shows would simply have to stop - and not many hobbyists want that.





SiUK said:


> thats why maybe shops that are good and come up to scratch could go on a database of good petshops, me and CC were talking about it last night, something like the workmans guild, that works, shops could have stickers to say they are affiliated with it, if you see what I mean.


 
yewah as si was saying, its something i was thinking about after being stuck behind a trade van, why not (with affiliation to the IHS or BHS,) a system similar to the workmans guild, it doesn't have to be totally enforced then, yeah you'll still have cr*p shops, like cr*p work men, but its a matter of the large societys giving approval(and therefore recommendation), to approved shops on their site, and shops could proudly display that they meet the standards of the top societys(and it gives them another merit and kudos on their own web sites), these standards would be set by someone sensible like either of the larger societys, that way it makes the antis arguments/ammunition more weak

That way for existing keepers, we can always give out the advice of going to approved shops for their set ups, knowing they would be going somewhere that abides by the very basic standards of hegine, healthy set ups and advice

The second and also tricky idea i was thinking of was to have approved care sheets(with said societys heading), that could be freely accessed by the general public, and freely printable to the trade, i know this would cause potential issues with disagreements over set ups etc, but wouldn't it be nice to have a standard sheet of advice to present the society/hobby to the public, starting with the most common species and working to less common over time

With the shows, yeah of course the antis could find fault in anything, even our home set upos(if they really tried), but surely you could see that any improvements would be a step in the right direction

Im not saying my ideas are fool proof, far from it, but surely these are the kind of issues that are worth looking at, I come from a scientific background in medical equiptment so im used to doing things in a weird way, and sometimes i feel the hobby just needs an audit from time to time, to address issues and see what can be modified and tidied up

god that sounds like im in a meeting about british standards:lol2:


----------



## leptophis

i agree, and i already know of a few shops who would do it


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## captaincaveman

leptophis said:


> i agree, and i already know of a few shops who would do it


 
imagine also if you could get the stockists involved as well, certain small percentage discounts to approved shops, for stockist approval through the societys too


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

*Cap Caveman*

Hi CC, 

First off, the IHS and the BHS are already associated to the FBH. They are not affiliates, they are associates, apparently they will not affiliate.

Secondly, we are working on an idea that works for retailers in the UK, but again this is something that needs to be researched to understand what is agreeable to not just a few shops but too all.

Some may call ita charter, we would tend to call it an Administration Flagship.

Because it is retail and not society, it can not be affiliated to the likes of FOCAs due to the nature of it being business. The retail sector would be better off affiliated to the likes of a retail association, and the only one at present would have been REPTA.

However, this may not work, and what must be looked at is a seperate association, that can then be fielded into FOCAS. As said PKl are in the steps of looking into seeing if this could work.

And next month we will have got the media pack ready for launch to some 1000 retailers to begin with, and from that point onwards we will then place the pack out in full media strength.

But also your idea incorporates societies, and then this is a different level again.

Shows need a code of practice to follow, as do retailers, at present this is also something we are in the throes of discussing and getting some fruitful feedback.

There was a code of practice issued by the FBH some years back that was not adhered to by any of the societies and admittedly the FBH did not see fit to push it towards both affiliates and associates.

All these things will be addressed, and as said PKL will also be looking to highlight much stronger communications between all the affiliates to the FBH as well as looking at the codes of practice for societies and the shows, as well as looking at codes of practice by retailers, or as said as some would refer to a charter.

One of the studies we have carried out and of course has been in the attention span for some time has been the 'approved care guide' this is an excellent idea and hopefully should retailers in the UK adopt the Flagship Administration concept then this would be something that would formulate part and parcel to the basis of the national administration.

Your ideas are sound and despite what people think all ideas are usually pretty good, it comes down to financing them, establishing them, creating the plan that they follow onwards in. Because for instance there is nothing concrete in the UK for the retailer it will take some time to properly sort out, but whilst it may take time, it does not mean that it is not going ahead. But when you have some 5000+ retailers alone in the UK, and none of them are specifically related in a chain but are independant, what may be great for 75% may not be acceptable to the remainder, and that is where you have to be able to find the compromise and what is still seen as acceptable.

But you are right, the industry needs one big audit.

R
PKL


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## SiUK

see thats some postives there mate, the media packs ready to go out to petshops, is a good thing. Thats steps forward that are good to hear.


----------



## captaincaveman

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Hi CC,
> 
> First off, the IHS and the BHS are already associated to the FBH. They are not affiliates, they are associates, apparently they will not affiliate.
> 
> Secondly, we are working on an idea that works for retailers in the UK, but again this is something that needs to be researched to understand what is agreeable to not just a few shops but too all.
> 
> Some may call ita charter, we would tend to call it an Administration Flagship.
> 
> Because it is retail and not society, it can not be affiliated to the likes of FOCAs due to the nature of it being business. The retail sector would be better off affiliated to the likes of a retail association, and the only one at present would have been REPTA.
> 
> However, this may not work, and what must be looked at is a seperate association, that can then be fielded into FOCAS. As said PKl are in the steps of looking into seeing if this could work.
> 
> And next month we will have got the media pack ready for launch to some 1000 retailers to begin with, and from that point onwards we will then place the pack out in full media strength.
> 
> But also your idea incorporates societies, and then this is a different level again.
> 
> Shows need a code of practice to follow, as do retailers, at present this is also something we are in the throes of discussing and getting some fruitful feedback.
> 
> There was a code of practice issued by the FBH some years back that was not adhered to by any of the societies and admittedly the FBH did not see fit to push it towards both affiliates and associates.
> 
> All these things will be addressed, and as said PKL will also be looking to highlight much stronger communications between all the affiliates to the FBH as well as looking at the codes of practice for societies and the shows, as well as looking at codes of practice by retailers, or as said as some would refer to a charter.
> 
> One of the studies we have carried out and of course has been in the attention span for some time has been the 'approved care guide' this is an excellent idea and hopefully should retailers in the UK adopt the Flagship Administration concept then this would be something that would formulate part and parcel to the basis of the national administration.
> 
> Your ideas are sound and despite what people think all ideas are usually pretty good, it comes down to financing them, establishing them, creating the plan that they follow onwards in. Because for instance there is nothing concrete in the UK for the retailer it will take some time to properly sort out, but whilst it may take time, it does not mean that it is not going ahead. But when you have some 5000+ retailers alone in the UK, and none of them are specifically related in a chain but are independant, what may be great for 75% may not be acceptable to the remainder, and that is where you have to be able to find the compromise and what is still seen as acceptable.
> 
> But you are right, the industry needs one big audit.
> 
> R
> PKL


sounds good, i like the idea of retailers actually wanting to chase the creditation to whoever organisation sits at the top(like restaurants/hotels improving themselves to achieve michelin status), but even a 75% up take would be good for the public face of the industry/hobby, if the majority standards are high it then puts pressure on individual retailers rather than the whole industry

thanks for that rory


----------



## purejurrasic

It must be remembered that the pkl are not trying to force these changes upon anyone, not elbowing the way in, not trying to point score on other groups.

As such any plan(s) or must be thought out as much as possible, and cant be just one or two peoples ideas, but the best 'middle' ground that still achieves the goal.

This does mean that it may take some time to come up with workable ideas, and when they are ready, they need to be rolled out to the target audiance first, rather than shout about it on here first.

Having said all that, there are a lot of people putting in a lot of work behind the scenes in many different ways, some tangable, others not so in your face. 

So it is great that Rory has been able to announce some of the projects being worked on, and I am sure there will be many more to follow.

Up to now, all there has been to talk about is what has happened or what may happen, and all the threads and discussions have provided masses of information in both directions, much of which has resulted in the contents of Rorys post, with more to follow.

The PKL wont be standing over keepers with a baseball bat waiting to whack em if they get it wrong, but that bat is there ready to whack away the little bundles of twisted truths and utter lies that get bowled into the arena in an attempt to rubbish and ultamitly outlaw your hobby.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

Good Morning to you sir!

Well said Tony.

Its true, we do not want to reveal too much to the readership here, and only because at this present time, there are key people working on various issues and we do not wish to reveal the goods yet, without knowing if they will work.

Society Liasion, will in fact be looking to open up these layers of communication between the affiliated societies to the FBH. This could well be a task in itself, but l have every amount of confidence and respect in the man to perform this.

Retail is difficult, not specifically by their choice, but by the sheer volume of them. The first thing to go out to the market will be a retail survey. This will be the lead in to the first 1000 stores. This will ask various questions of them and with their input we will be able to command the data in such a way that the Flagship Administration concept should not only work, but really gear the campaign forwards.

I have said this here and for the last three years. That if a landbased campaign is going to succeed, then we do need to adopt the retailers. But they do need to be awarded for this, they are business's. 

I very much doubt that many of the readership here truly understand the pitfalls on todays marketeers, for they are full of peril. And if PKL are going to enlist their help, for it is needed, then we must understand what makes it viable for them to do so.

Societies again, are a much needed commodity by the private keeper, although at present there is very little faith in the society, well our task is to find out why. Some polls have been posted here, to find out where you - the keeper - believe there to be problems.

Hopefully we can start to work this out successfully and renew the enthusiasm for societies, local clubs etc.

Unification is needed, simple, but it is never going to be an easy task, never ever, this does not mean that it will never ever work! lol

It just means that if you look at the entire industry, it is a triangle - private keepers, societies, retail, all make a point in that triangle. All make for total unification.

That is one of PKL's main aims, in our role as a support team for FOCAS, our job is to endeavour to ensure that occurs.

Rory Matier
PKL


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*How this started*

...........as a thread.

remember, what if questions.

What were they based upon?

Well oddly they were based on a RSPCA proposal for a bill for New South Wales - Australia, which you can find here.

http://www.prokeeperslobby.com/vendorsuk.htm

It is predominately aimed at mammals, the UK proposal from the RSPCA will be aimed all Animals.

So you can get a highlight of what the RSPCA would be intending to propose for the UK market.

No this is not speculation, its fact.

No, its not Scaremongering, this document is factual.

Yes, it is not aimed at the UK but Australia.

BUT, it is the RSPCA, and we do strongly believe that many of the aspects of the 'Oz Rules' will be present in theirs to DEFRA.

Rory Matier 
Pro Keepers Lobby


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

LeviathanNI said:


> It is certainly something we could look at.. I mean I'm not exactly happy with getting my pic taken, byut I would do it in order to raise the profile and maybe a few quid to broaden our scope/range


 
Admittedly, this is something the PKL have been looking into....Calendar.

R


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## wohic

calender Idea is great.............
A naked except for your favorite pet covering the rude bits Calender.

Just need some willing volunteers now


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Oddly enough*

..............yeah, that is what Nerys and l were thinking of actually.

She was going to wear three skunks, l was going to wear one, err, um, ......well one of something or the other.

After the porcupine shoot, it was beginning to look like, how many pricks can you see in this photo?

But, anyone game?

Seriously

An 18 month, reversible calendar meant for Trade and private keepers sales.

All revenue made will be dedicated to advertising for the hobby.

Rory


----------



## Testudo Man

wohic said:


> calender Idea is great.............
> A naked except for your favorite pet covering the rude bits Calender.
> 
> Just need some willing volunteers now


I'm up for that...

But wait a minute...

My largest female Ibera only measures approx. 11 inches...

Hmmmmmm...Its gonna be a close call : victory:...T.T.8)

PS. You aint gettin it all...my posts are being monitored/censored...


----------



## wohic

Terrific tortoise said:


> I'm up for that...
> 
> But wait a minute...
> 
> My largest female Ibera only measures approx. 11 inches...
> 
> Hmmmmmm...Its gonna be a close call : victory:...T.T.8)
> 
> PS. You aint gettin it all...my posts are being monitored/censored...


Now that I would buy the calender to see :lol2:


----------



## purejurrasic

lol, I've got some mini meal worms, so I am ok !

:Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Nerys

*chuckles*

it should be a good laugh actually..

depending on how many volunteers we get for it.. i might not have to be on every bloody page too :Na_Na_Na_Na:

we were thinking of doing 2 shots for each month, one boy, one girl.. so thats where the reversible thing comes in.. if you go through one way its the girls, turn it over and go the other way, and its the lads! we could also then do couple shoots, where one couple could pose together and do two shots for one month.

naked yes.. but tastefully so.. we don't want to see "readers wives" type poses done in poor taste with poor lighting. we do have a photographer lined up who will be taking the shots.. unless the sitter wishes to use their own photographer.. and then the image will have to be of set size/quality and so on. remember though sometimes you can tantalise more.. by showing less.. think "WI calender girls" rather than pink shots from Escort..

anyway... yes... more on that idea as time goes by 

N


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## Kylie

i'll do it anything to help out let me know when you want to take the pics and stuff and im game!!


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## Athravan

It's a nice idea, I'd certainly buy the calendar to support it.. don't think offering to volunteer personally would help sales at all though. You can have my OH if you want :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Nerys

lol cheers hon  

you should have seen rorys face when i told him he would have to get his kit off... he was all "what me? naked?? OMG !! "

i said, well unless you were planning on having the girls fully clothed... then yes.. naked for the lads as well...

:lol2:

N


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## Moshpitviper

so let me get this straight.....

you are giving people an excuse to be naked?

awesome!

where do i sign?

*runs to gym to remove beer & junk food*


----------



## Genseric

lol this will be fun! Luckily I have been running around like a blue arse fly this last lot of months.. we would need to do this in the Spring or something though, def a few months after Xmas 

I think I will go with the Burmese tastefully draped over me look


----------



## Moshpitviper

I'll be oiled up & bent over a lambo with a corn snake in my tea towel holder. hows that for a mental image?

:lol2:​


----------



## Kylie

Luton Reptile Rescue said:


> I'll be oiled up & bent over a lambo with a corn snake in my tea towel holder. hows that for a mental image?​
> 
> 
> :lol2:​


 
OH CLEM STOP IT ITS NOT A GOOD MANTAL IMAGE FOR ME!!!


----------



## Nerys

pmsl pmsl pmsl

spring? why spring? are you lads worried the cold will affect you in a bad way :Na_Na_Na_Na: me.. it just gives me extra coat hangers 

dave... oh... my.... god.... :no1: that will be, um.. different!!!!

of course, if we're including animals, then we do have to make sure the shots are not taken in such a way that we get *o* buying every copy (18+ readers will know what i mean by that!!) and also that we don't get all the antis weeping and wailing that we are abusing animals..

i have been asked to do a shoot with a king cobra coiled on my spine... as yet i have not been fully comfortable agreeing to that one... and its not just as i have not done any glamour work for ages.. more that i am not totally sure what the cobra would think of it all :grin1:

N


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

Its true, this calendar we talk of so flippantly, is something we are looking at to raise finances for PKL advertising.

If we want to raise finances to approach the landbased arena, then we have to look at something that will appeal to all. If we want to raise them to start to battle the opposition then we have to raise them ourselves. To do it successfully we need to go direct to the keeper and the industry. BUT, all buyers and sellers must make something from it. The Buyers get a great calendar and the sellers get a great selling angle.

Calendars come and go every year, kittens, cats, dogs, horses, you name it its there!

But a personalised calendar geared specifically and tastefully, well that is unique l feel. But still a legal and friendly way to raise funds for the campaigns.

So yes, naked we must be in Spring 2008, thankfully not all at once. But the calendar, albeit will contain a political message must be ready to launch by June 2008 running through till December 2009.

More will be discussed, as said we are looking for models, those that will pose rather than oppose and do so knowing that this is in fact one hell of a contribution for the hobby.

Alas l know the things we must do, but hey at present my choice is a porcupine or a ferret named Dougal................mmm

R
PKL


----------



## Diablo

Fangio said:


> Britain is a nation of pet lovers. I highly doubt they'd ban all pet shops selling animals somehow. There'd be a riot!


I havent been following this thread at all Ill put my hands up to that. But as Fangio said that he highly doubts they will ban the selling of all pets in shops. Im afraid to say they managed to ban the sale of puppys also they put so many rules onto the sale of kittens. Not to mention the amount of husbandry laws attached to them is untrue. What makes you think they wont do it with reptiles or all animals ??


----------



## Kylie

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Its true, this calendar we talk of so flippantly, is something we are looking at to raise finances for PKL advertising.
> 
> If we want to raise finances to approach the landbased arena, then we have to look at something that will appeal to all. If we want to raise them to start to battle the opposition then we have to raise them ourselves. To do it successfully we need to go direct to the keeper and the industry. BUT, all buyers and sellers must make something from it. The Buyers get a great calendar and the sellers get a great selling angle.
> 
> Calendars come and go every year, kittens, cats, dogs, horses, you name it its there!
> 
> But a personalised calendar geared specifically and tastefully, well that is unique l feel. But still a legal and friendly way to raise funds for the campaigns.
> 
> So yes, naked we must be in Spring 2008, thankfully not all at once. But the calendar, albeit will contain a political message must be ready to launch by June 2008 running through till December 2009.
> 
> More will be discussed, as said we are looking for models, those that will pose rather than oppose and do so knowing that this is in fact one hell of a contribution for the hobby.
> 
> Alas l know the things we must do, but hey at present my choice is a porcupine or a ferret named Dougal................mmm
> 
> R
> PKL


rory i am sorry but you will have to go with the porcupine my choice was gonna be my 2 ferrets!!


----------



## brittone05

I owuld definitely gof or Wilma, Rory. That girl was born to be a star and a good photoshoot woul dbe her claim to fame   

Sadly, I cannot offer my errr not so good body for the calender but will offer my other skills if needed (and if I have any lol) - my hubby would not be best pleased at me getting my kit off butI know a girl who may well be up for helping- and her bloke too


----------



## sparkle

correct me if im wrong..

are the models posing naked with animals placed in strategic positions.... and if so.. is that not a teency weency tiny bit erm.. im not sure LOL,,, but id love to see and buy the finished article.. not so sure how the ANTIS will view usage of our animals in naked photoshoots though... can just imagine the headlines...


TROUSER SNAKES.... buy a burmese here boys and impress the ladies ....


snakes covering naked mens willys is a bit well.. oh i dunno..... heres hoping they wil all be tasteful and not glamour porny style shots.. or JAPAN and "O" wil be the only market I can think of .. hehe
( as long as the animals arent touching the nawty bits it sounds a good idea..( because naked sexy humans and animals....thats just a simdgen .. erm well.. AHEM.. yes I shall say no more )

is anyone checking with the animals if they dont mind being draped over BITS for the day

:rotfl:


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## Nerys

lol sparkle..

well you have seen my skunks for instance... do you think they mind what they are draped over? nah... lol...

and a burmese python.. it'll make no difference to them if the holder is wearing clothes or not really.. the snake won't care either way - as long as its happy to be held in the first place.. 

wilma... mm well you do not tend to cuddle her anyway.. with her you encourage her into position, and then wait for the right chance to take the snap.. 

no, of course, we would not do any photoshoots that would cause the animals concerned any hassle!

N


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## Genseric

As we are all experienced keepers, I think it would be easy, and paramount, that any animals we use, are as a matter of course, not inconvienenced. 

The antis will always grab on to anything they can.. we can use their negative publicity to put across our positive message.. if anyone picks up on it obviously.


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## PendleHog

LeviathanNI said:


> The antis will always grab on to anything they can.. we can use their negative publicity to put across our positive message.. if anyone picks up on it obviously.


A very good point "any publicity is good publicity" and all that...

I tend not to contribute to these threads, but I do read them all and follow what the PKL are up to.
Einstein and I are happy to offer our services if you are short on lady members Nerys.


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