# Enigma Leopard Gecko's - Reasons for Breeding



## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

Hello people. After reading a recent thread it has inspired me to create a thread so I can get a better understanding of peoples reason's behind the continued breeding of Enigma's, the reason being purely because I am interested and curious to see if I am missing something in my view on it. First off let me say I do not breed Leopard Gecko's but have seen a few Enigma's showing symptoms etc but my knowledge on them is still limited.

I would like to hear from breeder's who are working with Enigma's about what they are trying to achieve, and how they are going about it. I know Mal has gone to a lot of trouble with his study in an effort to understand the gene but I'd like to know what everyone else is doing? and what have you found?

First off, it would be wrong of me not to show my viewpoint from my (limited) understanding. I am more than happy for people to convince me otherwise.

From where I am standing, the enigma breeding project should have been discontinued from the start, if this was indeed possible. I understand that they may have been "distributed" (for want of a better word!) between breeders before symptoms started showing which would have made this difficult, on the flip side though, they could have been ignored for the pursuit of financial gain. I think it would be very difficult to know for sure. From what I understand, breeders have not have much success in breeding out the problems. In an ideal world, I thing enigma's should not be bred from anymore but I understand that this would be very difficult (nigh on impossible) as there would always be people who would be willing to breed them, regardless of their ethical standpoint on it. The only way it could happen is if people stop buying them and they didn't command a higher price anymore or it was proven that it was not possible to breed out the neurological symptoms and breeding them was seen as irrisponsible by other breeders making them sort of taboo.

I have the feeling I am missing the point with them somewhere along the line (which is my reason for this thread) as people casually discuss their breeding projects which include enigma's without fear of being judged. It doesn't make sense to me as someone breeding a Crested Gecko (for example) with extra toe's/kinked tail etc would be hung, drawn and quartered but people breeding Enigma's are still seen as responsible breeder's even though the resulting symptoms are much, much worse. I am hoping there is some other reason for breeding these than they are pretty/expensive. if there isn't, my estimations of reptile breeders are higher than they should be.

as a final note I want to ask that people keep this thread civilised! I understand some people have a very strong viewpoint on this topic but we all know what happens when things get too heated.


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## emmilllyyy (Oct 9, 2010)

I'd like to know about this too, mainly why I commented  I don't understand why people still breed when it can affect a gecko so much? I know next to nothing about enigma syndrome but it seems kind of upsetting to know that geckos are getting bred and the breeders know this could potentially happen


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

I have 2 enigmas and they are still young (7-9months) and they show definate symptoms. I wouldnt ever breed from them, i bought them as pets, i know its a morph enhancer but i dont think it should continue to bred.


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## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

Thank's for the input Bruce.


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Tombo46 said:


> Thank's for the input Bruce.


 Its my opinion and i think its a fair and founded one, ive also found that they arent as good at hunting & catching food such as crickets.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/723411-how-long-do-enigma-leos-2.html#post8606316

That's what I think....................


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## sazzle (Jun 3, 2008)

i've had no luck with enigma's whatsoever :lol2:

I purchased a proven female who had no issues whatsoever, hatchlings had no issues, a couple of weeks after the journey to me, she started deathrolling etc and eventually had to be PTS because she got so bad

I recently purchased a dreamsickle who i was told circled a little when stressed but no other issues, however, i never saw her do this (and i spend a lot of time with my leos 1 to 1) she walked in a straight line, struck for her food accurately and was just like any other leo, however, last week, i noticed she was stargazing a little, thought nothing too much of it, now she circles for what seems like eternity, cannot strike her food (she strikes herself) and is deathrolling. 

One of the other females i purchased (RAPTOR) had already been paired to a dreamsickle so i guess i will have to wait and see what the hatchlings turn out like, if i have any enigma's i will certainly be entering them into Mal's study and keeping them for a long time before i even consider rehoming them. 

Other than that - i am steering well clear. There are several around with no issues whatsoever and people successfully breed them and have hatchlings with no issues but i think it is like a cancer, they all have it, it's just a case of something triggering it off x


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm not an enigma owner or breeder but would say (as I think Mal has said before) that *not* all enigmas suffer with ES unfortunately the ones that do are the ones that people have most pointed out or concentrated on since they first appeared in '05/'06 and then hit the market shortly after.
In the past five years or so since they hit the gecko scene at least two medical studies/examinations have been carried out with animals submitted for this (late 2007/early 2008 )... not only in the UK by Pete and Sarah (PSGeckos), Nick & Carrie (Ark Reptiles) and others and also by several american breeders Kelli from Hisss and others... I think Sarah and Pete said they'd forward their path reports to Mal for his current study.


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## ..:: F1D0 ::.. (May 13, 2009)

I think it should continue but should be monitored more. Kind of like how Mal is doing the TESS study. If you are going to breed enigma Leo's then dont breed Enigma to Enigma, breed to another genetic pool in the hope that over time the Enigma gene can be strengthend.

The thing is, without the research NOBODY knows what actually causes the Syndrome. 

The only thing that really grates on me is everybody jumps on the "You shouldnt breed them due to the health issues" yet people still continue to breed Spider Royals and they dont start the same "war of words" between one another like us lizard folk do.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

..:: F1D0 ::.. said:


> The only thing that really grates on me is everybody jumps on the "You shouldnt breed them due to the health issues" yet people still continue to breed Spider Royals and they dont start the same "war of words" between one another like us lizard folk do.


On the contrary, their are some _very_ strong views regarding the breeding of spider royals, and threads regarding the ongoing market for them do indeed result in wars of words- at least in most cases.


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## sheena is a gecko (Apr 22, 2011)

..:: F1D0 ::.. said:


> I think it should continue but should be monitored more. Kind of like how Mal is doing the TESS study. If you are going to breed enigma Leo's then dont breed Enigma to Enigma, breed to another genetic pool in the hope that over time the Enigma gene can be strengthend.
> 
> The thing is, without the research NOBODY knows what actually causes the Syndrome.
> 
> The only thing that really grates on me is everybody jumps on the "You shouldnt breed them due to the health issues" yet people still continue to breed Spider Royals and they dont start the same "war of words" between one another like us lizard folk do.


Absolutely agree with this, also with big red one and sleepy. Out of 7 enigmas we have 6 show no symptoms at all even when stressed and one is slightly slower than normal but still has a normal life. neither of the babies we have hatched this year show any symptoms either so far. If we are unlucky enough to hatch any that do show symptoms they will stay here with us and never be passed on so that someone else has to make a decision on their lives. We breed as responsibly as possible ie not breedin enigma to enigma, carefully selecting any that will be bred from and keeping the amount we breed very small, unfortunately some people don't do this and sell enigmas as "having no problems" even if they know they do. Now that they are here they will always be bred as to some people the thought that they can make money from it is too much of a lure. IMO it would be a massive shame to lose such beautiful morphs and the only way anyone will learn a reason or solution for ES is through research, we can only help with this through selective and responsible breeding

I feel sorry for anyone unfortunate enough to have one of their leos suffer as I am well aware of how debilitating and distressing it can be however I also agree that we only ever hear of the bad side of things and peoples unfortunate experiences. We for example have a hybino non enigma leo who suffers pretty badly with neurological issues similar to enigma syndrome- our vet has suggested this is probably due to interbreeding over many generations. My point being if this can happen to non enigmas also as said above in the cases of spider royals and I have also read that silk back beardies are "weaker" morphs and require extra care (although admittedly I know little about these species) why is it just the enigmas that should stop being bred and people who do breed them responsibly be made to feel anything other than responsible and caring keepers?

Sorry for the lengthy post, rant over :blush:


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## sazzle (Jun 3, 2008)

sheena is a gecko said:


> Absolutely agree with this, also with big red one and sleepy. Out of 7 enigmas we have 6 show no symptoms at all even when stressed and one is slightly slower than normal but still has a normal life. neither of the babies we have hatched this year show any symptoms either so far. If we are unlucky enough to hatch any that do show symptoms they will stay here with us and never be passed on so that someone else has to make a decision on their lives. We breed as responsibly as possible ie not breedin enigma to enigma, carefully selecting any that will be bred from and keeping the amount we breed very small, unfortunately some people don't do this and sell enigmas as "having no problems" even if they know they do. Now that they are here they will always be bred as to some people the thought that they can make money from it is too much of a lure. IMO it would be a massive shame to lose such beautiful morphs and the only way anyone will learn a reason or solution for ES is through research, we can only help with this through selective and responsible breeding
> 
> I feel sorry for anyone unfortunate enough to have one of their leos suffer as I am well aware of how debilitating and distressing it can be however I also agree that we only ever hear of the bad side of things and peoples unfortunate experiences. *We for example have a hybino non enigma leo who suffers pretty badly with neurological issues similar to enigma syndrome- our vet has suggested this is probably due to interbreeding over many generations. *My point being if this can happen to non enigmas also as said above in the cases of spider royals and I have also read that silk back beardies are "weaker" morphs and require extra care (although admittedly I know little about these species) why is it just the enigmas that should stop being bred and people who do breed them responsibly be made to feel anything other than responsible and caring keepers?
> 
> Sorry for the lengthy post, rant over :blush:


Ditto i have a normal morph leo who has very severe neurological problems and no enigma parentage x


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## yellrat (Jun 13, 2008)

Heres where i stand i don't own or breed enigmas this is my personal choice because of the risk factor involved but i am not against them being or continuing to be bred as long as it is done responsibly.
i know most reputable breeders warn potential buyers of possible issues but some don't and some even try to sell enigmas which are obviously displaying enigma issues at shows.
The way i see it there are two sorts of enigma breeders.

first sort the responsible ones who wont breed enigma to enigma who wont breed enigmas showing issues who wont sell enigmas showing issues without potential buyers full knowledge.
who contribute to studies like Mal's (Tess)
These breeders are trying to remove enigma syndrome while providing everyone with new stunning attractive morphs.

second sort who are just in it to make quick cash breed enigma to enigma breed enigmas with issues sell enigmas with issues to unwitting buyers.
these breeders are causing the most problems.

if further down the line a reputable breeder manages to get a few generations showing no signs of syndrome i would then be very interested in purchasing some enigmas from them.
Thats my point of view


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## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

Does anyone know a rough percentage of Enigma's that do display ES? 

I notice people say that they are trying to "strengthen" the enigma gene, what are they actually doing to achieve this? and have they had any success? Also, What attributes must an Enigma have to be called one? and is it a single gene? if so, I'm assuming that because people are saying they don't breed enigma to enigma that it is co-dom?

I see a lot of people saying "I was sold an enigma and told it was fine, when I got it home it was showing symptoms". This would indicate that it is indeed stress that is a trigger? certainly makes sense. either that or there's a lot of bent breeders out there haha.

at the moment I still stand by my opinion that I dont think they should be bred. even if some do live happily ever after, there are a lot that don't and if the reasoning behind it is purely to achieve a pretty gecko, then I can't see how it is justifiable. like I said before. If it was any other genetic trait, the breeding program would have been discontinued.

I do know of one guy who was one of the first breeders of enigma's. He admitted that he euthanized lizards with kinked tails and other mild physical deformities but continued breeding enigma's because of the value and genetic potential of them.

I'm sure some breeders hearts are in the right place and are genuinely trying to help but I get the feeling a lot of other breeders claim to be "strengthening" the enigma gene as an excuse. How many year's will it take (if it is indeed unsuccessful) before people give up?

I also agree that only the negatives get focused on so it must seem like a much bigger problem than it actually is. that being said, there's no smoke without fire. I have been put off by the countless threads that say "leopard gecko shedding help!", I'm aware that these are isolated cases and the threads appear often because of they are a popular pet but I just can't bring myself to keep them as I always seem to associate them with problems lol.

I have a quick question for Sazzle too. You said you had a normal that was having trouble? would you ever consider breeding it?

Sorry if my post appears nasty in any way. I don't intend it to be! I'm genuinely interested in the subject and appreciate everyone's input =]

All the best

Tom


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## sazzle (Jun 3, 2008)

Tombo46 said:


> I have a quick question for Sazzle too. You said you had a normal that was having trouble? would you ever consider breeding it?
> 
> Sorry if my post appears nasty in any way. I don't intend it to be! I'm genuinely interested in the subject and appreciate everyone's input =]
> 
> ...


I wouldn't say you are coming across nasty at all Hun (that said though I do take everything with a pinch of salt)

I wouldnt dream of breeding my lila, not only because of the stress it would cause but because to me, she is unhealthy and that is something that could be passed along and may even lie dormant, I will not breed anything unless I am 110% sure there are no health issues and if I got deformed babies/babies with issues from a pairing I would certainly not breed them again.

I'm not saying enigmas shouldn't be bred, I just think there are a lot of irresponsible people out there just breeding regardless of issues and this is 'infecting' the gene pool as far as enigmas are concerned 

Again this is just my opinion x


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## Earth-Angel (Jun 10, 2010)

Well we have seven enigma's, four of which were rescues and display enigma syndrome. The other three are all fine. To echo what I said on another enigma post, it would be a shame for the enigma morph to be no more. BUT there needs to be a whole lot of research done on enigma's, and we can only do that by helping with studies, like TESS. Breeders need to be responsible, but sadly not all will be. We would never breed enigma to enigma,its a big taboo for us and will never be done. We have bred two enigma's this year, only because they show no sign of the syndrome whatsoever. Any babies that show any signs at all of even a hint of the syndrome,will stay with us. I think we hope,that if people breed their strongest lines of enigma, ie none with any syndrome symptoms at all, that it will slowly eradicate the syndrome altogether. Though of course we all need to understand E.S a lot better, which hopefully through things like TESS we will learn something.
We always planned to steer clear of enigma's, but couldnt help falling in love with the unusual patterns on the three healthy ones we have, and we talked at length about whether to breed them or not. 
Some things shouldn't be done, but sadly they still are, like breeding dogs with noses/ muzzles so short they can hardly breathe.....in every animal or reptile im sure we can find something that isn't the 'norm'. Thats where people need to become responsible, to understand what they may be taking on if they decide to breed, to only breed enigma's showing no signs of E.S and learn as much as possible beforehand.
Yes the syndrome can be made much worse by stress. Our rescues actually cope quite well now, we adapted their housing after researching all that we could, and one in particular was death rolling daily, barely ate, and was very slim....now since we adapted his housing, and leave him alone as much as possible ( he is only handled when he really has to be ) he has gained a great amount of weight, more than double what he was, he seldom ever rolls, he feeds himself and sheds fine. Yet this was an enigma people said we should have put to sleep.
I find the syndrome is very much like autisim, they appear trapped in their own little world.
As a hobby breeder, i truly do hope a lot more will be learned about this syndrome and that breeders if breeding, do it responsibly.

Hope this makes sense,probably not the best time to write when battling a very bad head lol.


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## Phil75 (Nov 29, 2010)

I dont breed enigmas for the same reason as most have stated. My aim as a leo breeder is to create Beautiful healthy leopard geckos as suitable pets for all people. At this stage with the enigma i dont think any can be classed as such. I think they are lovely looking leos and i hope someone solves the problem of ENIGMA. However i do feel if this happens the price tag will go through the roof for a leo that is too highly priced at the moment allready.

Phil


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

i've closed my thread due to the last few posts getting a little bit heated, i didn't want it to turn into an enigma debate, because what i was after was what to do about the indevidual gecko, and would the responses have been different if i hadn't mentioned she was enigma i wonder.

the gecko is now being left with me, so now i need to decide what's best to do for her, which is what i was hoping to fathom with my thread. i'm glad this one has been made, and i hope it remains a calm discussion.


Kay.


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

What a shame your not prepared to give people a chance to discuss this in a rational way. I make a comment to the effect that your lucky the breeder was prepared to pay towards the cost of the animal, when enigmas are always a gamble and you close the thread !


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## sazzle (Jun 3, 2008)

Blaptica said:


> What a shame your not prepared to give people a chance to discuss this in a rational way. I make a comment to the effect that your lucky the breeder was prepared to pay towards the cost of the animal, when enigmas are always a gamble and you close the thread !


That is not relevant to this thread. Keep it clean and if you got an issue discuss it via pm, this thread is going well so far and some interesting views are being aired, don't want it turning into a slanging match : victory:


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## NewtyBoy (Jun 4, 2011)

I am thinking of breeding Leos a few years down the line when I am far more experienced at keeping them. I have limited knowledge of the enigmas but from what research I have done I have decided that I will be staying clear of them as I wouldn't take any risk and would prefer health over beauty 100% of the time


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## blood and guts (May 30, 2007)

SexyBear77 said:


> On the contrary, their are some _very_ strong views regarding the breeding of spider royals, and threads regarding the ongoing market for them do indeed result in wars of words- at least in most cases.


Indeed, between the spider wobble, kinked caramels, neuro issues in jag carpets, super forms of varius morphs being fatal and of course the enigma issues all being so widly known you have to wonder why it still goes on and on and on! oh hang on return of investment, wanting to make there own new morphs and some sort of ego thing in many cases!

Theres so many cool spieces out there crying out for people to keep and breed more but its all morphs this and morph that these days! what about the other spieces of leopard geckos, the original lucy leo was a diffrent spieces, the giants may well have come from the afgan giant leo and so on so how about we get some pure wild types of these spieces going instead of the next metaly mess up but weird patterned runt?


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## Jeffers3 (May 18, 2010)

I've made my opinions on this clear in the past, but all credit to Tombo for starting a sensible discussion. Mal's survey is a good starting point in trying to understand the scope of the syndrome. Unfortunately, few of the people proposing to "do something about the problem" have the molecular biology skills to do so. Andy Tedder is one of the exceptions to this, but as far as I'm aware, he's not as active since he moved to Zurich.

Saying that not all enigmas are affected is like saying not everyone who smokes dies from cancer.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Jeffers3 said:


> Saying that not all enigmas are affected is like saying not everyone who smokes dies from cancer.


Not really.....
If anything the better analogy would be 'not every asthmatic dies of asthma'. ie it's something that may or may not affect longevity/quality of life and day to day 'survival'.

But as keeps being pointed out on these numerous enigma threads - NOBODY KNOWS what is happening with enigmas.

NOBODY.

NOT ONE PERSON.

So everyone has an 'opinion', which when I last understood English was something an individual held as their own unique view.

I'm fact this:

o·pin·ion/əˈpinyən/Noun 
1. A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. 
2. The beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing. 

Enigmas are 'opinion'......


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## kirky1980 (Apr 4, 2010)

i may be being thick here but what does happen when enigma and enigma do breed? im just assuming that that symptoms are much much worse than another enigma/.......... pairing.


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## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

Big Red One said:


> Not really.....
> If anything the better analogy would be 'not every asthmatic dies of asthma'. ie it's something that may or may not affect longevity/quality of life and day to day 'survival'.
> 
> But as keeps being pointed out on these numerous enigma threads - NOBODY KNOWS what is happening with enigmas.
> ...


Why does nobody know what is happening with Enigma's? People have been working with them a good 5 - 6 years? surely something must be known about them? I have asked several questions in regards to the gene but none of them seem to be being answered by anyone. I also have not seen any breeders explain yet what they are doing to "strengthen" the gene and what results they have had.

Regardless of what people do and don't know about enigma's, the fact still remains that a higher percentage of them have problem's than with other morphs and up until now, I have had no evidence of any other reason for this than they are a pretty morph. I can understand people wanting to try to sort it all out so they can have the pretty morph without the problem's but at the end of the day, all the effort is just for sake of colour.

The fact that people are trying to strengthen the gene confuses me. If an enigma is a homozygous form of the gene (which I have asked if it is with no answers) then if 2 copies of the gene are present, they are going to show enigma traits, both physical and the symptoms of ES. either that or the gene is co-dominant and a single enigma gene does not possess the symptoms whereas 2 copies do? again, I have asked for some clarification on the enigma gene but haven't had a reply regarding it yet.

I suppose it is possible that the first enigma also had seperate gene's which were carrying ES and they are simply being passed down the line along with the colouring. if this is the case then I suppose it is possible for it to be bred out of them? 

One question I would like to ask everyone is......

knowing what you know now (which is apparently nothing) about Enigma's and associated weaknesses and you were the first person to breed one, would you euthanize it? or if you prefer, make sure it was never bred from?

I'd be interested to hear the view of someone who is very clued up on genetic's in regards to strengthening the gene, as this is what has me confused *cough* Andy *cough*...


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

blood and guts said:


> Indeed, between the spider wobble, kinked caramels, neuro issues in jag carpets, super forms of varius morphs being fatal and of course the enigma issues all being so widly known you have to wonder why it still goes on and on and on! oh hang on return of investment, wanting to make there own new morphs and some sort of ego thing in many cases!
> 
> Theres so many cool spieces out there crying out for people to keep and breed more but its all morphs this and morph that these days! what about the other spieces of leopard geckos, the original lucy leo was a diffrent spieces, the giants may well have come from the afgan giant leo and so on so how about we get some pure wild types of these spieces going instead of the next metaly mess up but weird patterned runt?


as lovely as WC would be, you're aware of where they're from, and exactly whats going on in that part of the world right now. it's not safe to go out animal catching, although i'm considering getting on FB finding some mate who're out there atm, and seeing if they fancy bringing me a little something back.


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

Tombo46 said:


> Why does nobody know what is happening with Enigma's? People have been working with them a good 5 - 6 years? surely something must be known about them? I have asked several questions in regards to the gene but none of them seem to be being answered by anyone. I also have not seen any breeders explain yet what they are doing to "strengthen" the gene and what results they have had.
> 
> Regardless of what people do and don't know about enigma's, the fact still remains that a higher percentage of them have problem's than with other morphs and up until now, I have had no evidence of any other reason for this than they are a pretty morph. I can understand people wanting to try to sort it all out so they can have the pretty morph without the problem's but at the end of the day, all the effort is just for sake of colour.
> 
> ...


i don't think anyone has rhe answer to the questions you're asking, it's believed to be dom, thats the opinion from breeding it, and the reason it's advised not to breed enigma to enigma is to outcross to healthy animals to try to reduce the risk of unhealthy offspring.


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## Jeffers3 (May 18, 2010)

Big Red One said:


> Not really.....
> If anything the better analogy would be 'not every asthmatic dies of asthma'. ie it's something that may or may not affect longevity/quality of life and day to day 'survival'.
> 
> But as keeps being pointed out on these numerous enigma threads - NOBODY KNOWS what is happening with enigmas.
> ...


Look up "scientific observation" in your so useful dictionary!

The smoking analogy wasn't supposed to be an exact parallel with a genetic disease, but more to show what happens when people don't want to see the truth.

If you want a better analogy, try BRCA and breast cancer. Not everyone with the BRCA gene gets breast cancer, but there is an above normal chance of this happening. This is precisely my point about confusing rudimentary understanding of genetics with proper understanding of molecular biology.


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## magick (Aug 18, 2009)

Just thought id contribute to this thread by saying that i have 2 Mack Snow Enigmas (Violet & Pinky) both approximately 10 months old and both displaying symptoms of Enigma Syndrome, I have kept leos for 6 years and have never bred any of them, and would never ever breed from my Enigmas, Unfortunately I didn't know about Enigma Syndrome when i bought these 2, and sadly the breeder didn't warn me about it either. But the strange thing is that Violet shows more symptoms of Enigma Syndrome, Circling, head tilting, stargazing, and extremely bad balance yet she can eat, shed and Poop fine with no problems and is a very confident and friendly leo, who will just walk out of her viv onto you hands and then sit there contently. Whereas Pinky Displays head tilting, Star gazing and mildly bad balance I have had trouble with her eating, and her Shedding recently had been a nightmare, a nd she has developed a very strange behavior that none of my other 5 leos have ever done, when i place my hand in her viv she can happily sit there for 10 minutes or so with 1,2 or even 3 feet on my hand but as soon as her 4th foot touches down she just darts in which ever direction she is facing even if she knows full well that there is a rock or a wall in front of her it seems almost like an involuntary action that she does this and i believe it to be something neurological, but after adding her more hides and covering approximately a 3rd of the front of her viv over so its quite dark for her she has started eating again for the past few days straight she has been feeding out of her food dish thankfully. And to keep on topic I think that enigmas should be phased out slowly as no one seems to truly understand the Syndrome enough (including myself) and it is so sad to see these beautiful critters in this way, and at the rate things are going it seems that Enigma Syndrome is becoming more and more common. All i know is that i would never give them up because of a defect as i bought them as my pets and they always will be, but after having my other 3 leos for 6 years with no problems what so ever i can safely say that these 2 (Violet & Pinky) have been more stress and worry than any other pet i have ever had :lol2: and had i know about Enigma Syndrome before i bought them i may have reconsidered my choice.


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## Jeffers3 (May 18, 2010)

Surely the simple solution is to stop breeding them? Because nobody knows exactly what is going on is precisely the reason to stop. The funding isn't available to study this properly - and why should it be? A new pretty pattern will soon take its place, hopefully without the problems.


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## magick (Aug 18, 2009)

Jeffers3 said:


> Surely *the simple solution is to stop breeding them? Because nobody knows exactly what is going on is precisely the reason to stop. *The funding isn't available to study this properly - and why should it be? A new pretty pattern will soon take its place, hopefully without the problems.


Thats more or less what i said near the bottom of my post :lol2: only i put "And to keep on topic I think that enigmas should be phased out slowly as no one seems to truly understand the Syndrome enough (including myself)"


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

Jeffers3 said:


> Surely the simple solution is to stop breeding them? Because nobody knows exactly what is going on is precisely the reason to stop. The funding isn't available to study this properly - and why should it be? A new pretty pattern will soon take its place, hopefully without the problems.


you say it's simple, how exactly are you going to make sure that happens?


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Jeffers3 said:


> Look up "scientific observation" in your so useful dictionary!
> 
> The smoking analogy wasn't supposed to be an exact parallel with a genetic disease, but more to show what happens when people don't want to see the truth.
> 
> If you want a better analogy, try BRCA and breast cancer. Not everyone with the BRCA gene gets breast cancer, but there is an above normal chance of this happening. This is precisely my point about confusing rudimentary understanding of genetics with proper understanding of molecular biology.


Jeff, nobody is confusing anything.
But once again you seem to be carrying on your crusade against enigmas.....
Rather than using your impressive level of intellect to try and blind the lesser mortals amongst us, can you not just accept that people aren't confused, just not wanting to apply sweeping generalisations regarding a genetic issue in leopard geckos that is not fully understood even by Andy and those others with 'proper understanding of molecular biology'. As I have stated before' nobody knows what is causing the issues. We will never know unless work is carried out by the appropriately qualified people. This is unlikely to happen, so we are ALL guessing. That's you, me and the most qualified molecular biologist alive. 

My point and that of others who are sick to the back teeth of hearing enigmas being slated on a daily basis is that we need to all accept there are currently different viewpoints amongst groups of people. Can we not just leave it at that?

To answer Tombos question - the enigma gene expresses dominantly in it's heterozygous form. Enigma to enigma breeding has been tried as far as I understand, in relatively low numbers. It 'seemed' (again no definite answer!) to increase the likelihood of producing affected animals and has since been classed as an additional risk. 
On the other query asking why people 'think' that enigmas can somehow be strengthened, well again it's just a theory that some hold. Basically there's hope amongst some (who claim some success) in that by crossing to different lines or subspecies there is the possibility to address some/all issues that the enigma gene can cause. I'm not saying that this is fact - it's a thought/belief of some.

One last point folks before I finish. I personally don't give a flying toss whether I or anyone else ever breeds an enigma leopard gecko. To be honest I have more important things to worry about in my life, but can we all refrain from slating people who want to TRY and do something positive with the animals that are already out in the wider world. Can we not just accept that people are all different?


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

sazzle said:


> That is not relevant to this thread. Keep it clean and if you got an issue discuss it via pm, this thread is going well so far and some interesting views are being aired, don't want it turning into a slanging match : victory:


Its annoying enough that when I state my opinion (in a calm/polite manner) which somebody dislikes, the other thread gets closed. But then to be told I can't respond when the person who closed the thread starts talking about it on this other thread, thats even more annoying ! Kirsten chose to bring it up here, and that surely is 'off topic' i.e not relevant to this thread.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

My only question is, how many enigmas are going to have to suffer just so you can try and strengthen the gene and it might now end up working? (all just for a colour enhancing gene)
It's a shame that people are creating animals which have the potential to go wrong at any minute, including the healthy adults people say they have, everyone knows it's not uncommon for them to suddenly appear to have symptoms. Geckos which seem to be displaying none of the symptoms may suddenly get them through a stress if i'm right? What if you have two adults and the stress of breeding triggers the symptoms, are you going to freeze the eggs? There will always be 1 person who doesn't and puts bad genes back into the pool and it would start all over again and noone would know until the offspring would show the symptoms.
Despite my dislike for enigmas I know they'll never stops as they'll never become illegal so people will carry on breeding them even if the mass of breeders stop. There will always be smaller scale people who breed them on the sly and then cover up that they're enigmas.

Edit: These are obviously not facts i'm stating, just my opinion so please noone take them as i'm saying that's how it is and feel free to correct me on any of my points


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## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

Big Red One said:


> Jeff, nobody is confusing anything.
> But once again you seem to be carrying on your crusade against enigmas.....
> Rather than using your impressive level of intellect to try and blind the lesser mortals amongst us, can you not just accept that people aren't confused, just not wanting to apply sweeping generalisations regarding a genetic issue in leopard geckos that is not fully understood even by Andy and those others with 'proper understanding of molecular biology'. As I have stated before' nobody knows what is causing the issues. We will never know unless work is carried out by the appropriately qualified people. This is unlikely to happen, so we are ALL guessing. That's you, me and the most qualified molecular biologist alive.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input BRO, I apologise if this frustrates you as you have obviously discussed this many time's before! I hadn't seen any threads discussing it before, only the odd mention of it which lead to closures etc. I don't keep leo's so don't often read thread's on them which is why I may not have discussed this with people before.

Thank's for explaining the gene to me aswell. It make's more sense now.

Given what I have learned so far, If it was me personally, regardless of my long term intention's (strengthening genes etc) I could not breed gecko's with a higher potential of being unfit purely for the sake of a colour morph. I couldn't look at a gecko that couldn't hunt and was death rolling and not think "that's my fault". I understand people have differing opinions and that will always be the case. It was never my intention to change anyone's view's, only to understand them a little more.

on a lighter note. how crap is the term "Death Rolling"? who decided to call it than anyway?




Blaptica said:


> Its annoying enough that when I state my opinion (in a calm/polite manner) which somebody dislikes, the other thread gets closed. But then to be told I can't respond when the person who closed the thread starts talking about it on this other thread, thats even more annoying ! Kirsten chose to bring it up here, and that surely is 'off topic' i.e not relevant to this thread.



I think Sazzle was just trying to keep the peace. and rightfully so, we have quite a few good posts and although it's getting a little heated, It's still within boundaries! I understand you being upset but I think if you want to discuss the previous thread, it's best done over PM, that includes Kirsten.


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## Jeffers3 (May 18, 2010)

Sorry BRO - I'll get off my soapbox!

As Kirsten has pointed out, we can't stop people breeding them, so the practise will continue. The only reason I got on the soapbox in the first place was to try to convince people that it's not worth breeding them. The only "weapon" I have available is to use science and reasoning. I'm not some loony eco-warrior that will turn up at shows letting all the poor little enigmas free! Everyone has a choice. As long as it's informed choice, then I'm more than happy to support anyone's right to that choice.

I think I've said it before on here, but Voltaire was right:

"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I defend to the death your right to say it"


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## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

Chris18 said:


> Edit: These are obviously not facts i'm stating, just my opinion so please noone take them as i'm saying that's how it is and feel free to correct me on any of my points


****DISCLAIMER**** haha


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

Jeffers3 said:


> Sorry BRO - I'll get off my soapbox!
> 
> As Kirsten has pointed out, we can't stop people breeding them, so the practise will continue. The only reason I got on the soapbox in the first place was to try to convince people that it's not worth breeding them. The only "weapon" I have available is to use science and reasoning. I'm not some loony eco-warrior that will turn up at shows letting all the poor little enigmas free! Everyone has a choice. As long as it's informed choice, then I'm more than happy to support anyone's right to that choice.
> 
> ...



one of this biggest problems, is that RFUK is only a small % of the population that actually keeps reptiles, i met a lady in the vet the other day who had a dumerls (naff spelling i know, can't think right now) and had never heard of this forum. so even if everyone on here made a pact and agreed to no-longer breed enigmas, then that would still only be a small dent. it'd have to be tackled and agree on all forums, across the globe, and even then, there will be others who aren't connected to that network that will still breed them

somesay said about breeding them on the sly and not mentioning they're enigma, not easily done, they're very distinct in appearance.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Guys - nice to see a general 'lightening up' here!
:2thumb:

Jeff - I concur wholeheartedly with Mr Voltaire - it's really what my viewpoint is, not only on this thread but in life!

I honestly believe that if everyone 'agreed to disagree' the world would be a much nicer/healthier place...(Just as a tragic aside, look at the events in
Norway - almost certainly that will be down to someone being 'right' in their personal viewpoint. Still the basis for the majority of terrorist and other disgusting, vile acts upon others) Sorry Jeff, nicked your soapbox for a mo there! :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Anyway - like most things in life, we will have a view either way, let's just try and leave it at that shall we?

Ps - death rolling, yeah... Not nice.


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## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

kirsten said:


> one of this biggest problems, is that RFUK is only a small % of the population that actually keeps reptiles, i met a lady in the vet the other day who had a dumerls (naff spelling i know, can't think right now) and had never heard of this forum. so even if everyone on here made a pact and agreed to no-longer breed enigmas, then that would still only be a small dent. it'd have to be tackled and agree on all forums, across the globe, and even then, there will be others who aren't connected to that network that will still breed them
> 
> somesay said about breeding them on the sly and not mentioning they're enigma, not easily done, they're very distinct in appearance.


I think we can all agree that breeding them will not stop (apart from the dreamers) however a reduction is better than nothing and realistically that is all we can hope for.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

kirsten said:


> somesay said about breeding them on the sly and not mentioning they're enigma, not easily done, they're very distinct in appearance.


I've seen a number of threads with people who bought a new animal (Or even people who have bred two together and the offspring has turned out enigma), asked for a moprh ID and has turned out to be an enigma. Not all people are up to speed with the morphs and tell them apart, I sure don't know how to and could easily be sold an enigma if i went out looking for a pretty animal right now.
Or even people who have bred two together and the offspring has turned out enigma
Obviously if they're breeding them and it's frowned upon they're not going to be selling them to big breeders who will know, they'll sell them to newbies who think they're getting a really pretty animal for bargain prices.

EDIT: and as you said in above comment, a small percent of people are connected to forums, the ones that aren't will likely not know the clear signs which indicate enigma


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## ..:: F1D0 ::.. (May 13, 2009)

Jeff has raised a good point regarding the BRCA gene that has a higher risk of breast cancer, if i remember rightly from a TV programme i watched with Dawn Porter, this gene is a dominant gene and is passed down generation to generation. 

What im trying to get at here is just because there is a higher risk of getting breast cancer with this gene, should the female who carries this never have kids as there is a risk of her child over time getting breast cancer? Its the same with Enigmas, there are enigmas out there that are perfectly healthy and show no signs of the "syndrome" but when being bred there is a higher risk of passing this onto the offspring. 

Again, this is just my opinion. At the end of the day, like i said in my original post, NOBODY knows exactly what causes the syndrome and without the releavant studies, nobody ever will so what Mal is doing is a start.

I think the people wanting to just breed them for the hell of it are the ones that need to have a re-think. Through selective breeding there is a chance (all be it will take a while) to "strengthen" the gene - this could be done so much quicker and easier if there is a genetic study done on them but as Jeff has said, there is no funding available for this as it wouldnt be cheap.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

To quote a famous America senator (when have they ever said something sensible?!) - Daniel Moynihan to be exact : "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." 

So why do I bring it up (apart, of course, from its almost poetic truth)? Because recognizing the difference between the two (facts and opinions) can be difficult in certain situations, and this is certainly one of them. I think it is very important to remove emotive arguments (very simple for me, but certainly not for everyone), and really detail exactly _what_ is currently known, and what is not (its all well and good saying things like "nobody knows...", but is this really true?).

- Symptoms vary in onset, severity and combination (which are present, when etc...). Making acurate apprasial *very* difficult, which probably accounts for many keepers missing it.

- Anecdotal evidence to suggest that UVb exposure and Ca intake can play a regulatory role in symptom management (*Needs testing*).

- 'Stress' (in multiple forms) can lead to an increase in symptom severity, although this could actually be also attributed to change in diet or other factors.

- It *is* physically linked (proximity to the loci) to the (or one of more likely) alleles responsible for the gene responsible for the phenotype. This means that without a *very* rare recombination event, seperating the two is impossible.

- We do not know _what_ gene is responsible, or _how_ it impairs function, but this is not so important really.

- It is likely that all individuals carry the mutation (given what the evidence suggests) but that there are physical and environmental parameters required for onset of symptoms. (Its also likely that due to the first point, people are simply missing the evidence).

We seem to frequently hear that people are "working with them" but what does this actually mean? There is no way of removing this problem through selective breeding (failing a *massive* stroke of luck - could happen with enough pairings, but of course it means you have to recognize it and then remove *all* other individuals, so not so likely), and I am yet to speak to anyone that is involved in this 'trials' that really understands the underlying science behind what they *need* to do. Easy for me to say perhaps, but without a real grasp of multiple pretty complex concepts, then you have no chance of solving the problem (which would appear to be unsolvable...).

So, my opinion, well I have no ethical problems with breeding this mutation, but I couldn't in good faith sell any. People should test breed all they like, but if they want to make a *real* difference, they should do some stress tests, trial different conditions (usings Mal's T.E.S.S index) to assess how the condition manifests, and actually do something that will affect the way the animals that are currently coping with the condition. Otherwise, we can talk till the cows come home, and nothing will change... In that case, it would be clear to me that people don't care as much as they say they do...

Andy


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## 12843 (Nov 16, 2007)

I do not ownor breed and my understanding is reasonible, but to the point and theroy of it is often applable into most situation where symptoms come into light, treatments also give SOME flaw.

Symptom are not usally visible until a trigger accurs. Often stress related, which will be varible, Example of this would be relocation, which the distance, method, and the reps own resilience would all become major factors, the latter imo being the most substantal. , Syndrome traits all point to nurofunction inhibbitance(the nervous system is calcium depended), and what little lines of treatments that have been used, D3 and CaCO3 boosting is the most effective.

Naturally, _Eublepharis macularius, _calcium intake has two sides On one they have the ability to utilise low levels of UVa and UVb quite well (possible dawn/dusk basking, and moon basking which apperently UVa output is quite remarkable for a reflection. 

However this isn't the full coin's detail, on the other side of it there is the well tested, but poorly documented, fact of them having the ability to produce D2 (often from UVa exposure and heat.) and convert it into usable D3. 
This is where I believe the problem lies, and why it is difficult to stamp all ES geckos as a 'defect'. It is also my belief that it is a gene which all true Enigma's carry, but could not become an issue until the nerous system is put under stain.

(A) way forward?: 
For Enigma to be safley classed as varible to the point that not all are carriers, need to be taken into replacating triggers at numours intenstity levels, with 'the run of the mill care' (ie heatmat and CaCO3).


Don't think I was bios at all? :\


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## loonymoony (Oct 22, 2009)

*Thanks to you.........*



GlasgowGecko said:


> To quote a famous America senator (when have they ever said something sensible?!) - Daniel Moynihan to be exact : "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."
> 
> So why do I bring it up (apart, of course, from its almost poetic truth)? Because recognizing the difference between the two (facts and opinions) can be difficult in certain situations, and this is certainly one of them. I think it is very important to remove emotive arguments (very simple for me, but certainly not for everyone), and really detail exactly _what_ is currently known, and what is not (its all well and good saying things like "nobody knows...", but is this really true?).
> 
> ...


_*

I just wanted to post and say a huge thanks for taking the time to write this reply. It is great to read something with all the facts laid out and no conjecture or emotional clouding, sure many people on here will agree with this sentiment and any breeder/hobbiest of any worth wants to better their knowledge of genetics, I certainly know I do and whilst peoples points of view are all well and good and interesting to read, it really is nice to just read the facts, pure and simple, well written too, so even the least gifted of my brain cells understood it all, Thanks again! :2thumb:*_


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## stokesy (Mar 11, 2011)

I think glasgow gecko has really summed it all up - everyone will always have their personal opinions but the facts are what they are. For me a novice keeper, I cannot knowing the facts choose to keep enigmas. I think looking overall at the market of Leo morphs (and for that matter loads of reptile morphs) we all have to be careful what we are buying and breeding are not just bred for colour alone, the gene pool of new morphs seem very small and the health of the whole leo can be overlooked in the pursuit of desirable looks.


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

ive read through this and i agree that there should be restricted but my plan in hopefully breeding white and yellows next year is that i feel they give a similar colour affect without syndrome albeit they are not available to everyone due to price atm but in future years i see this as a way forward.


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## sazzle (Jun 3, 2008)

MP reptiles said:


> ive read through this and i agree that there should be restricted but my plan in hopefully breeding white and yellows next year is that i feel they give a similar colour affect without syndrome albeit they are not available to everyone due to price atm but in future years i see this as a way forward.


i agree - good luck on funding one to begin this :lol2:


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

sazzle said:


> i agree - good luck on funding one to begin this :lol2:


pretty much sorted ill be getting a male from tug they will have various as long as i can buy it and get to me for under or exactly 1450 im sorted


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## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

GlasgowGecko said:


> To quote a famous America senator (when have they ever said something sensible?!) - Daniel Moynihan to be exact : "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."
> 
> So why do I bring it up (apart, of course, from its almost poetic truth)? Because recognizing the difference between the two (facts and opinions) can be difficult in certain situations, and this is certainly one of them. I think it is very important to remove emotive arguments (very simple for me, but certainly not for everyone), and really detail exactly _what_ is currently known, and what is not (its all well and good saying things like "nobody knows...", but is this really true?).
> 
> ...


Thank's a lot for the input Andy, it was very educational as always. But like you say, it won't change anything and that was never my intention. Im amazed the thread has managed to stay civil for so long and would like to encourage people to add your opinions/findings to it.

All the best

Tom


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

I know the OP had genuine interest and reasoning for opening this thread but sadly its the same old opinions voiced again and again. Ive spoken at length on previous threads so Im not going to go too deeply into the enigma argument here. I do find it sad that certain members still seek every opportunity to villify anyone assosciated with breeding of enigmas. It may help if people actually stepped back and looked at a few points before launching their tirades.

Many many enigmas are hatched every year (number in thousands) and a high percentage of these animals are regarded as perfectly healthy. It is not yet proven whether it is inevitable that at some stage all enigmas will develop the syndrome.

It is not yet known what percentage of enigmas display symptoms of the syndrome. I wonder how many of the anti enigma breeding lobby have actually seen an enigma with syndrome symptoms.

Most hobby breeders breed from one or two enigmas. The eggs from these(unless enigma has been paired to enigma) will produce approx 50% enigma hatchlings. Most hobby breeders would be delighted if they produced 4 enigmas from the two females. Now look at the professional / commercial breeder. He will put a stud male enigma to a tub of 3 females each night. It is not unusual for the male to sire 30 or more females of each of the desired morphs. Its not rocket science to work out that these guys produce massive numbers of enigmas to the extent that the numbers produced by hobby breeders becomes rather insignificant if you are looking at the whole scale of the problem. I dont see many people getting on their soap boxes to the guys that make large sums of money from their projects.

In most cases people buying enigmas, (yes some people still want to buy them) are aware of enigma syndrome. Anyone breeding enigmas is a liar if they say they were unaware of the problem. Anyone undertaking the most basic research into caring for leopard geckos is likely to come across information about the syndrome. Its not some dusty dark secret.

What is needed is openess and honesty. Accept that even if every member of RFUK said they would never breed from or purchase an enigma again, hundreds and hundreds would still be sold each year. Its fine sitting in judgement on here and slating the little guys. It will do didley squat to the guys at commercial level. What it will do is deny people the opportunity of buying from a local breeder who has devoted their efforts into trying to give someone the best possible chance of owning a healthy enigma. Instead they will simply buy from a commercial outlet, a faceless breeder with little chance of their support if things go wrong in the future. 

Thankyou for the mentions of TESS. I hope this little study continues and achieves something positive towards our understanding of the problem. It may lead to more scientific study or it may simply give us a few figures to knock about when we look at the true scale of the enigma problem.

Enigmas, like it or not, will still be here in years to come.

BRO, you know Im in full agreement with much that you say about enigmas. More importantly I agree with you when you speak of there being far more important issues in life at the moment.


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## Jeffers3 (May 18, 2010)

Thanks for the input, Mal.

I thought this thread had remained pretty civil. Appealling to people to stop the unnecessary breeding of enigmas is hardly vilifying them. Tombo's original question has, however, remained unanswered. Why does anyone breeding want to take the risk of the syndrome when it is not necessary? Anyone asking this question is usually accused of villifying breeders. I would just like to hear one valid reason for persisting with it.

I'm not having a go and respect the fact that others believe differently about things to me. Many of us just don't understand why people continue to breed enigmas, that's all. Don't worry - we're not a lynch mob!

The scientific study is something you know I'm interested in. Unfortunately, to do this properly, it will be very expensive. There is no chance of getting funding, though, as the simpler solution is to stop breeding the enigmas. I'm still worried about what the general public would make of this, if it got out. At least your study gives some ammunition with which the community could defend itself.

I'm very supportive of people discussing this issue. It's the only way forward.


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## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

Mal said:


> I know the OP had genuine interest and reasoning for opening this thread but sadly its the same old opinions voiced again and again. Ive spoken at length on previous threads so Im not going to go too deeply into the enigma argument here. I do find it sad that certain members still seek every opportunity to villify anyone assosciated with breeding of enigmas. It may help if people actually stepped back and looked at a few points before launching their tirades.
> 
> Many many enigmas are hatched every year (number in thousands) and a high percentage of these animals are regarded as perfectly healthy. It is not yet proven whether it is inevitable that at some stage all enigmas will develop the syndrome.
> 
> ...


I was hoping you would share your opinions Mal. One of the reason's I started this thread was not to bash enigma breeders but to get a better understanding of the reasons behind the continued breeding of them. Unfortunately some of the questions I have asked have been ignored mostly when it comes to peoples moral standpoint on the breeding of them. I'd like to point out though that I am not on a mission to stop people breeding them, we have already established that it is a waste of time and effort. I am instead, giving enigma breeder's the chance to show people their reasons behind what they are doing and what they have found from their breeding project's but have found myself somewhat disappointed by the replies.

It is widely believed (though unfortunately not always practised) that unfit animals should not be bred from, however this "rule" does not seem to apply to enigma's. The question that is on everyone's lips is, why not? The only answer that I can find up to just is that people hope, that one day they can have the pretty morph with none of the symptom's. So what's wrong with this? In my view, while it is admirable that people are trying to achieve this, the fact remains that animal's WILL suffer as a consequence (regardless of the % affected). It is also my belief that while some people's effort's are for the overall benefit of the morph, most people prefer to use it as an excuse.

Also Mal, You agree with BRO that there are more important issues in life at the moment yet here you are, putting all this effort in to TESS when you could be out dealing with "more important" issues. Don't write off what you're passionate about! what you are doing is a great thing and importance varies from person to person. For me personally. I'm not looking to change anything, just understand more and have a nice healthy debate. Afterall, selling fruit and veg doesn't keep the brain going all too well.... 



Jeffers3 said:


> Thanks for the input, Mal.
> 
> I thought this thread had remained pretty civil. Appealling to people to stop the unnecessary breeding of enigmas is hardly vilifying them. Tombo's original question has, however, remained unanswered. Why does anyone breeding want to take the risk of the syndrome when it is not necessary? Anyone asking this question is usually accused of villifying breeders. I would just like to hear one valid reason for persisting with it.
> 
> ...


To be honest, I doubt the general public would give a flying toss, look at certain dog breed's! Dog breeding is incredibly mainstream yet people accept it somewhat. Sorry to pull out the dog breeding card, I couldn't think of a better example haha.

Like you said Jeffer's. were not looking to condemn anyone, just offer our opinions and accept other peoples, regardless of whether we disagree with them or not.

Failing this though I will switch to plan B which involves foam bat's in the car park at the next Doncaster show...Then we will see who's right!!


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Tombo46 said:


> Where you say you have no ethical problem with breeding them, I'm curious as to why this is? Does knowingly producing weakened animals not bother you in some way? If not, would your reasons for breeding them (purely theoretical of course) be from a scientific interest, and not for "the greater good" (as so many people claim). I would agree that some people don't care as much as they say they do. This is a bold statement and not one I have had the gonad's to say haha. It seem's people are constantly trying to find justification for breeding this morph using flawed logic.


Producing the animals does not provoke negative feelings for me, but selling them is not something I would choose to do (nor is buying them really, and I don't actually own any). If anyone here thinks that their breeding this 'morph' is for the 'greater good', then this _is_ worrying. As I have said, accept it or not (this is a different question), there is *no* way to seperate the gene(s) responsible for the problem from the one(s) responsible for the phenotype in the entire population (even if, and its a huge if, one breeder achieved it, it would still need every other 'enigma' breeder to stop breeding their animals or the problem would continue regardless. The sooner everyone realizes this, the better). Thus further breeding can *only* produce more individuals that _may_ (and I say 'may' because onset may be physically or environmentally triggered) exhibit the syndrome. Those that continue to breed and sell them (like it or not) are making the decision that perpetuating this problem is fine (regardless of whether their animals currently exhibit symptoms). This is not an 'anti enigma' argument, simply the only way I can interpet this action. I don't think it's a suitable argument to say that "the big breeders won't stop so why should I".

As I have said, the *only* worthwhile think keepers and breeders of this morph can do moving forward, is to trial different environments (correctly) and assess the severity of the symptons in each case. Hopefully a set of parameters can be delimited that minimize the severity, making life for the existing animals easier.

Andy


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## 12843 (Nov 16, 2007)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Producing the animals does not provoke negative feelings for me, but selling them is not something I would choose to do (nor is buying them really, and I don't actually own any). If anyone here thinks that their breeding this 'morph' is for the 'greater good', then this _is_ worrying. As I have said, accept it or not (this is a different question), there is *no* way to seperate the gene(s) responsible for the problem from the one(s) responsible for the phenotype in the entire population (even if, and its a huge if, one breeder achieved it, it would still need every other 'enigma' breeder to stop breeding their animals or the problem would continue regardless. The sooner everyone realizes this, the better). Thus further breeding can *only* produce more individuals that _may_ (and I say 'may' because onset may be physically or environmentally triggered) exhibit the syndrome. Those that continue to breed and sell them (like it or not) are making the decision that perpetuating this problem is fine (regardless of whether their animals currently exhibit symptoms). This is not an 'anti enigma' argument, simply the only way I can interpet this action. I don't think it's a suitable argument to say that "the big breeders won't stop so why should I".
> 
> As I have said, the *only* worthwhile think keepers and breeders of this morph can do moving forward, is to trial different environments (correctly) and assess the severity of the symptons in each case. Hopefully a set of parameters can be delimited that minimize the severity, making life for the existing animals easier.
> 
> Andy


*Goes to find a mega ray*
In seriousness though, could one suffers enviroment differ from another?

Something that I had wondered often about while reading about is if it IS degenerative or not? Because if it is, which many neurological issues tend to be (even with treatments) isn't that the nail in the coffin there?

Do you have anything avaible that you could share that's more indepth on the genetics side of it all?


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