# gila monster



## jackandstacey2009 (Aug 2, 2011)

does the gila monster come under the dwa licence


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## mattsdragons (Jul 6, 2009)

in short... yes :lol2:


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## Ste123 (Apr 30, 2011)

mattsdragons said:


> in short... yes :lol2:


lol short but correct and thats whats important


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## bioherp (Aug 2, 2011)

Yes, not that they should of course. One of the many weirdnesses of the DWA act schedule as currently listed.


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## iDomino (Apr 23, 2011)

bioherp said:


> Yes, not that they should of course. One of the many weirdnesses of the DWA act schedule as currently listed.


surely they should since their venomous?


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## bioherp (Aug 2, 2011)

iDomino said:


> surely they should since their venomous?


Many reptiles not listed are venomous, e.g. gartersnakes, Asian ratsnakes, and monitor lizards. Venomous isn't an all-or-nothing trait and in itself isn't a good enough reason to be listed under the DWA act. Although extremely painful, H. suspectum are EXTREMELY unlikely to cause death or life-threatening conditions and pose a relatively low escape risk with proper housing.


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## iDomino (Apr 23, 2011)

bioherp said:


> Many reptiles not listed are venomous, e.g. gartersnakes, Asian ratsnakes, and monitor lizards. Venomous isn't an all-or-nothing trait and in itself isn't a good enough reason to be listed under the DWA act. Although extremely painful, H. suspectum are EXTREMELY unlikely to cause death or life-threatening conditions and pose a relatively low escape risk with proper housing.


the only monitor thats "venomous" is a komodo, and technically their not venomous their just 1 giant STI
their not on dwa because their not regularly available

i didnt know there were venomous species not on dwa =/


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## callum b (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm sure I was reading not to long ago something about a few or even all Varanus potentially produce some form of venom although they have no adaptation to inject it like for instance a viper etc etc can.


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## Spuddy (Aug 24, 2009)

iDomino said:


> the only monitor thats "venomous" is a komodo, and technically their not venomous their just 1 giant STI
> their not on dwa because their not regularly available
> 
> i didnt know there were venomous species not on dwa =/


 
Wrong. Komodo's *ARE* venomous. So is the Lace Monitor. 

I believe there are a couple of other venomous monitors too - could be wrong on that bit though. 



Also the reason they arent on the DWA isnt because they are not regularly available. If that was the case, half the animals on there wouldnt be DWA. 

How many times have you seen a Hippo for sale!?


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

A nile monitor is venomous as well I believe? A guy in America had turned his flat into a nile monitor enclosure basically lol and he got bitten by one, and a few days later without seeking antibiotics he eventually collapsed and died.... resulting in him being eaten by his own pets!


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## callum b (Sep 8, 2008)

Nicked this link off an old thread on here about Komodo dragons Komodo Dragons . I have also read that other monitors possess the same or a very similar thing. Apparently research is also being done on whether Bearded Dragons also possess some form of a venom gland!!


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

After doing some more reading it appears that when bitten, the komodo dragon and nile monitor excrete a chemical in their saliva which is venomous to humans if not treated


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## Jaymz (Mar 21, 2010)

Lizard venom research


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## snakekeeper (Oct 29, 2008)

I currently keep 6 heloderma suspectum cinctums and personally, I wouldn't want to get bitten by any of them from what I have read in scientific based text and journals. Once bitten, the pain alone would be enough to knock you out! In regards to the original question, allergies and reactions alone to the toxins could be enough to cause a medical emergency so perhaps that might be one reason they are on the list.


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

snakekeeper said:


> I currently keep 6 heloderma suspectum cinctums and personally, I wouldn't want to get bitten by any of them from what I have read in scientific based text and journals. Once bitten, the pain alone would be enough to knock you out! In regards to the original question, allergies and reactions alone to the toxins could be enough to cause a medical emergency so perhaps that might be one reason they are on the list.


Wow 6 that is quite something! Can they live communally or do they have seperate enclosures?


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## Whosthedaddy (Nov 29, 2009)

Bexzini said:


> A nile monitor is venomous as well I believe? A guy in America had turned his flat into a nile monitor enclosure basically lol and he got bitten by one, and a few days later without seeking antibiotics he eventually collapsed and died.... resulting in him being eaten by his own pets!


Sounds a little urban myth to me.


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

Whosthedaddy said:


> Sounds a little urban myth to me.


Nope its true


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

I heard that the venom from a Gila is unlikely to kill you but that the pain and discomfort you'll go through can make you wish it had!! 

Then again, you tend to hear a lot of BS floating round the reptile world :lol:


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## cobe (Nov 24, 2010)

also gila's and beads tend to be a little er bitey to say the least. i had the pleasure of handling a bead a few years ago, it wasnt a happy bunny, and my mates bead u cant even get close to the thing. their bite is very vey painful and sometimes lethal. i beleve its good they are dwa.


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## cobe (Nov 24, 2010)

just a small point. i've been bitten by a fair few monitors in the past, as have mates, including a nile, babies and sub adults. the bite from a half decent size monitor makes you want to emtpy yourself there and then due to the pain from its teeth and the force commited into the bite but after a good clean up (as you would with any reptile bite) the wound has healed up fine. i beleve the story from the guy who died from a bite may be due to the wound not being cleaned properly? after all a dog bite can go septic...


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## iDomino (Apr 23, 2011)

cobe said:


> just a small point. i've been bitten by a fair few monitors in the past, as have mates, including a nile, babies and sub adults. the bite from a half decent size monitor makes you want to emtpy yourself there and then due to the pain from its teeth and the force commited into the bite but after a good clean up (as you would with any reptile bite) the wound has healed up fine. i beleve the story from the guy who died from a bite may be due to the wound not being cleaned properly? after all a dog bite can go septic...


a bit from ANYTHING can kill you, he may have had an allergic reaction to the saliva


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## snakekeeper (Oct 29, 2008)

Bexzini said:


> Wow 6 that is quite something! Can they live communally or do they have seperate enclosures?


To be honest you should keep them separately however I have a pair in one cage, a huge male in another alone, another adult pair in a cage and another single male alone. They get along fine but it may cause problem when I try to breed them. Feeding needs to be monitored as they are greedy little sh*ts.


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## jackandstacey2009 (Aug 2, 2011)

Whosthedaddy said:


> Sounds a little urban myth to me.


it was on sky the other week program called fatal attractions


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## Whosthedaddy (Nov 29, 2009)

jackandstacey2009 said:


> it was on sky the other week program called fatal attractions


Started to watch these ages ago but they're so slow and tedious.


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## Amy2310 (Feb 28, 2011)

I've also heard that it's not the bite per say they kills you, but the pain is so intense a lot of people kill themselves.
I may be wrong, but this is what I have heard.
Either way, I still want some!


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

Whosthedaddy said:


> Started to watch these ages ago but they're so slow and tedious.


I find them really fascinating and informative!


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## cobe (Nov 24, 2010)

iDomino said:


> a bit from ANYTHING can kill you, he may have had an allergic reaction to the saliva


ok, you mean they can go into anaphylactic shock? the known mortality rate of friends or anybody else i know from a bite from a monitor is 0. Lots of research is being done on komodo dragons at the moment and
"magnetic resonance imaging scans revealed complex venom glands in the dragons' mouths that had never been documented before" meaning its a venom "modified saliva" and not bacteria which is what every body thought for years.
bites from herps mammals, insects or whatever in the field do quite often become infected due to low hygene. every insect bite i get in the forest always get bloody infected anyway, thank god for savlon... this has somewhat viered of the subject though?


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

cobe said:


> ok, you mean they can go into anaphylactic shock? the known mortality rate of friends or anybody else i know from a bite from a monitor is 0. Lots of research is being done on komodo dragons at the moment and
> "magnetic resonance imaging scans revealed complex venom glands in the dragons' mouths that had never been documented before" meaning its a venom "modified saliva" and not bacteria which is what every body thought for years.
> bites from herps mammals, insects or whatever in the field do quite often become infected due to low hygene. every insect bite i get in the forest always get bloody infected anyway, thank god for savlon... this has somewhat viered of the subject though?


I can't wait until september I am going to be doing a zoo keeper for the day with the reptiles, and the woman who works there has been studying komodos for 25 years, she knows so much about them! Can't wait to learn some new information about them :2thumb:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

beleive me, a millipede is harder to handle than what these are, oh and by the way, that comment at the beginning of the thread stating they should be on DWA because they are venomouse, well many T,s also tend to be venomouse but are they on the DWA *NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!* they are not 

these lizards are cool and I intend to await the day they come off the DWA list before aquiring out of principal.

Agreeible that they need to be looked after responsibly and carefully, but beleive me I think I could list another hundred lizards which are much more aggresive and potentially dangerouse than these guys and would be more suited to going on a DWA list, I think these lizards should have a tight legislation but not to go as far as DWA, I mean for god sakes one of those is not likley to escape out of the home unless you are a complete and utter idiot!


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## Spuddy (Aug 24, 2009)

snakekeeper said:


> To be honest you should keep them separately however I have a pair in one cage, a huge male in another alone, another adult pair in a cage and another single male alone. They get along fine but it may cause problem when I try to breed them. Feeding needs to be monitored as they are greedy little sh*ts.


 
Are they generally active lizards requiring a fair bit of room or not too bad? .. What size viv's do you keep yours in?


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## cobe (Nov 24, 2010)

thats serously lucky  i love the komodos they are huge and they have found them to be very intelligent too. the largest lizard i have worked with was a huge water monitor and he hated us :/. i hope you have an amazing time


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

cobe said:


> thats serously lucky  i love the komodos they are huge and they have found them to be very intelligent too. the largest lizard i have worked with was a huge water monitor and he hated us :/. i hope you have an amazing time


 
shhhhhhhhhhhhhh don't mention intelligence to becky!

shhhhh right now! just don't argue.

:whistling2:

Hi Hun  x


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## cobe (Nov 24, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> shhhhhhhhhhhhhh don't mention intelligence to becky!
> 
> shhhhh right now! just don't argue.
> 
> ...


lol


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Whosthedaddy said:


> Sounds a little urban myth to me.


Yes it is true. 
they literally mawled him afterward too.
A very healthy guy he was, weight training, always excersized etc.


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## bioherp (Aug 2, 2011)

As regards H. suspectum and the DWA act, bear in mind the point of the act. It was NOT contrived to protect the owner, as far as the act is concerned it is actually to ENABLE safe ownership of listed species, it is instead to protect the public. Fundamentally, H. suspectum are unlikely to pose a major public risk when suitably housed.

As regards painful and possibly lethal bites (not to mention allergies) justifying their listing, I do not find much weight in that argument. The pain is reported to be extreme, but so is a good bite from some tarantulas and centipedes. Pain from a bite does not make an animal dangerous, it just makes it wise to try not to get bitten. As far as lethal bites go, I am unaware of ANY SINGLE substantiated report of a death from H. suspectum envenomation without other complicating factors like pre-existing heart problems or alcohol cunsumption/alcoholism. I am happy to be proved wrong with this if anyone can direct my to a good quality case report of a normal (i.e. healthy) adult dying from envenomation from this lizard.

As far as allergies go, the most dangerous animal in the world when allergies are included are bees, notice that those are not listed in the DWA act. Reason being if you include allergies when listing species then all species could be listed - including humans! Bye bye non-DWA-licenced childbirth in case the child bites someone who happens to take an allergic reaction such as anaphylactic shock.

I am not saying anyone should go out and buy a Gila monster, but the same thing can be said for medium to large monitor lizards. I am simply saying there is no good justification for them to be listed under the DWA act. The same can be said for many other species, not least as a result of the 'shotgun' tactic of listing whole (and sometimes large) families of animals in the schedule to the act. Quite simply, they should not be listed but people should exercise a modicum of common sense when deciding which species to keep, is this too unreasonable to expect? If they can't and some idiot goes out and buys a H. suspectum when they are not capable of dealing with it safely then they will just have to learn the hard way.


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## venomous111 (Dec 24, 2009)

Bexzini said:


> A nile monitor is venomous as well I believe? A guy in America had turned his flat into a nile monitor enclosure basically lol and he got bitten by one, and a few days later without seeking antibiotics he eventually collapsed and died.... resulting in him being eaten by his own pets!


wasnt this on fatal attractions???


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

> Fundamentally, H. suspectum are unlikely to pose a major public risk when suitably housed.


The same could be said for any animal, if suitably housed it will pose no threat to the public. The purpose of the act is to ensure that the animal is housed appropriately.

Although unlikely to be life threatening, heloderms are very capable of causing medically significant envenomations and in my opinion deserve a place on the DWA.

David.


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## bioherp (Aug 2, 2011)

I take your point, but a Gila monster is far less likely to escape from a given enclosure than, say, a black mamba or a Gould's tree cobra. While any policy issue is arbitrary to a greater or lesser extent (albeit should have some scientific basis) as therefore opinions are bound to vary, I still believe that the degree of their (admittedly) 'medical significance' does not quite demand their inclusion on the list. To reiterate, some invertebrates are capable of causing 'medically significant' envenomations but are not listed due to the lack of good evidence of directly caused deaths without additional complicating factors.

Again, I am not saying anyone should just go out and buy a Gila but their inclusion on the DWAA schedule is sketchy at best.


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## snakekeeper (Oct 29, 2008)

Spuddy said:


> Are they generally active lizards requiring a fair bit of room or not too bad? .. What size viv's do you keep yours in?


It all depends on their individual character. 4 of the 6 are quite active during the day and a lot more during the night. The other 2 (males) are forever in their caves during the day and out during the evening. Generally they are quite lazy though. They do not require a lot of room considering the fact that they stay in burrows almost all day in the wild. Some reputable breeders keep them in V70 tubs within racks with no UVA/B required. However, I keep mine in 120 x 70 x50 Herptek cages where I also supply UVA/B as I am not totally convinced about the reasons why they don't need it.


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## J and M hedgehogs (Feb 7, 2011)

iDomino said:


> surely they should since their venomous?


but the mangrove snake and the green cat eyed snake the brown tree snake false water cobra etc are all venomous and they arnt on dwa its not all about the venom mate : victory:


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> shhhhhhhhhhhhhh don't mention intelligence to becky!
> 
> shhhhh right now! just don't argue.
> 
> ...


Haha u cheeky sod  xx


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## iDomino (Apr 23, 2011)

cobe said:


> ok, you mean they can go into anaphylactic shock? the known mortality rate of friends or anybody else i know from a bite from a monitor is 0. Lots of research is being done on komodo dragons at the moment and
> "magnetic resonance imaging scans revealed complex venom glands in the dragons' mouths that had never been documented before" meaning its a venom "modified saliva" and not bacteria which is what every body thought for years.
> bites from herps mammals, insects or whatever in the field do quite often become infected due to low hygene. every insect bite i get in the forest always get bloody infected anyway, thank god for savlon... this has somewhat viered of the subject though?


yeah thats what i ment, i know the chances are slim but its the same sort of thing where people die from bee stings rite?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Bexzini said:


> Haha u cheeky sod  xx


I speak the truth :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## bioherp (Aug 2, 2011)

iDomino said:


> yeah thats what i ment, i know the chances are slim but its the same sort of thing where people die from bee stings rite?


Yup, although bee and wasp allergies are more frequent and as a result are practically more serious. In fact, in the USA (where many venomous reptiles etc. exist) bee and wasp stings cause more deaths per year than any other venomous animal, obviously in large part through allergies. Because the immunological mechanism of bee/wasp venom allergies and reptile venom allergies are different, it works out so that the former are the actual cause of allergies in far more cases. Reptile venom allergies are EXTREMELY rare other than in those working in venom labs etc., and so for general conversation of envenomations allergies are irrelevant for reptiles but vital for bees/wasps.


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## omen (Sep 26, 2011)

Spuddy said:


> Wrong. Komodo's *ARE* venomous. So is the Lace Monitor.
> 
> I believe there are a couple of other venomous monitors too - could be wrong on that bit though.
> 
> ...


your wrong there saliva juct cotains a realy harmful bactieria, it is not a venom.


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## callum b (Sep 8, 2008)

Lol, very old thread but sorry you are wrong, Komodo dragons do possess venom glands. Have you not read through the whole thread??


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## Razorscale (Feb 22, 2010)

omen said:


> your wrong there saliva juct cotains a realy harmful bactieria, it is not a venom.


No you are wrong, komodo dragons have venomglads, look up Dr Bryan Grieg Fry's research, he discovered it along with countless other monitors.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/05/090518-komodo-dragon-venom.html


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## PESKY (May 25, 2010)

iDomino said:


> the only monitor thats "venomous" is a komodo, and technically their not venomous their just 1 giant STI
> their not on dwa because their not regularly available
> 
> i didnt know there were venomous species not on dwa =/


 
scolopendra centipedes have very strong venom and they arnt on DWA


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

PESKY said:


> scolopendra centipedes have very strong venom and they arnt on DWA


DWA is annually observed by various experts and changed depending on scientific journals/case studies of bites etc etc, it is not on DWA now but one day it might be.


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## bioherp (Aug 2, 2011)

There seems to be an eternal issue with people misunderstanding the point of the DWA act and also the real seriousness of venoms. The latter has extended such that I have even heard some people arguing that hognoses (Heterodon) are dangerous! Yes they have venom, yes there are a few extreme cases that are very atypical, but even these are limited to relatively minor swelling. Anyone arguing that the swelling is not minor should bear in mind that this an extreme case and then look at extreme cases of many Crotalidae envenomations. The point is that a venom may provoke severe pain and perhaps a few other slightly worrying symptoms (if they apply to you), but unless they pose a genuinely serious risk to the victim's health/life it is difficult to say they should be placed on the DWA act.

As far as Scolopendra goes, the same applies to many other invertebrates. You will notice that despite the vast majority of animals, including many venomous species, being invertebrates - very few of them are listed. The reason for this is largely practical, there are so many species that it is only feasible to include those that are genuinely life-threatening. Although even here they have listed all Buthidae scorpions despite the fact that not all have fatal envenomations. Scolopendra, although many species are little known and have extremely painful bites, are generally not considered life-threatening to a healthy adult.

The point of the DWA act is not to provide a list of all venomous species (or large or spiny or any other trait contributing to an animal's antipredator defence), but as a practical document to highlight certain species that would pose a serious risk to the public (note, not the keeper). Although it has significant limitations these are unavoidable in many cases given the purpose of the document. As a very general overview it is a reasonable approximation of dangerous animals.

Finally, Omen, a quick search online would reveal the research showing the venomous nature of the monitor lizards since it received a lot of media interest. Furthermore, depending on your level of education (formal or otherwise) the papers themselves are available on Bryan Fry's website at www.venomdoc.com (this is from memory so if that isn't the correct address then simply Google venomdoc or Bryan Fry).


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