# RUB - off or not?



## TSKA Rory Matier

Okay, so here is a question that was posed to me the other day, so where else best to ask it accept here on one of the leading UK reptile Forums.

I fight against primates being kept in oversized and undersized parrot cages in the loungeroom - because they lack space, enrichment, environment and stimulation.

Someone asked me the other day, why so many reptile keepers could openly complain about primate habitats when in reality so many Reptile Keepers keep species in RUB's - which l believe stands for Really Useful Box, although perhaps it should be called a RUPB - really useful plastic box.

The primate keepers ' question was simple - if it is appalling to keep a primate in an undersized parrot cage in the loungeroom then why is it acceptable to house a reptile in a RUB? 

Why should anyone keep a 'reptile' in a plastic box?

Do these RUBs provide the right enrichment, stimulation and environment for the occupants.

And does it not actually encourage more keepers to become lazy in their keeping by keeping them in purely plastic tubs??

Its l thought a relatively good question.

R


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## htf666

As the primates are more akin to humans in the need for a social environment with a great need for stimulation and interaction with the world around them I do feel it is misleading to compare them directly to reptiles.Although not by any means dumb animals, the reptiles do seem to need less in the way of care than their mammal compatriots.Whilst the primates and other mammals have to contend with pecking orders,hierarchy,male or female rivalry, the reps seem to enjoy a solitary lifestyle as a whole, only interrupted by the breeding season.The fact that they do so well in plastic boxes should not be frowned upon in an anthropomorphic manner as the early anti argument did with the posts ringing with quotes of 'glass coffins' but should be judged on how healthy and well-adjusted the occupants seem to be.How you define well-adjusted in a reptile might be difficult but I would suggest that the vast number of healthy offspring produced each year would indicate that the parents are far from stir crazy.Indeed Royal pythons are more likely to be kept in rub's than anything else because of the better feeding response occurring in these containers.I like to think that although not perfect,a hygenic, spacious (in snake terms) easily cleaned and monitored box can provide a better alternative for some species than any other vivaria. Harry


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## toyah

A RUB provides the same enrichment and stimulation for a reptile as a vivarium does - none. It's what you add to these boxes (plastic, wooden, glass, or otherwise) that make them enriching and stimulating environments.

We keep our adults in RUBs. They're each given one or two types of substrate that allows burrowing, two differently textured and shaped types of dry hides, a moist hide (again different size/shape/material/texture to the two other hides), a waterbowl of yet another texture, a large rock or stone, and at least one type of climbing branch (though I have a second type of wood I'm going to put in when I get round to it).

Would those things be more stimulating and enriching in a wooden vivarium than they are in a RUB?


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## Declan123

When you think about it, most snakes are Nocturnal... therefore like darker more enclosed spaces, and aslong as its got all the right air flow inside, i cant see the problem...

When a reptile is in a vivarium, it has people walking past etc all the time, we dont really know, but this could scare the snake a little bit, so if the snakes in a RUB, it "Should" feel more secure... and i always try to make it like there natural environment anyways, with hides, flaura etc...


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## spirit975

I don`t personally think its comparable...
You put a primate in a bird cage, you`re going to see some mental issues going on....you put a hatchling corn/royal etc in a 20 foot tank...and you`re going to have trouble.
They are entirely different species with entirely different needs...its like asking why do we feed dogs meat and cows grass..


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## SiUK

its a bit of a stupid question IMO, not aimed at you Rory, but anyone that knows animals, knows that snakes have very primitive brains compared to primates much less understanding, I agree with the fact they shouldnt be kept in tubs too small for them but in an appropriately sized tub I dont see any problem with it.


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## Mason

the pastic inside of a really useful box is no different to the wooden inside of a vivarium.

I will only keep a snake in a tub or any sort if it can be provided the same amout of floor space as it'd get in the "right" sized viv.

You can chuck just as much fake plant style clart in a RUB as you can a viv. A tub of the CORRECT dimensions is no different to a viv apart from them being top opening.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

I agree that the comparison is not brilliant, however l think the point they were trying to raise was this:

That if animals under the codes of practice are to be offered an enriched life environment, does the plastic box afford this?

Many reptile keepers l know do not use them, but equally as many do, and there are of course arguments on both sides of the coin in defence and opposition to the RUB.

But seeing as the VIV has been brought into account - why use a RUB over a VIV, what are the benefits to each?

R


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## toyah

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> That if animals under the codes of practice are to be offered an enriched life environment, does the plastic box afford this?


No plain box made of any material affords this - it is the contents of the box that offer enrichment! I don't see how the box being made of plastic matters at all?



TSKA Rory Matier said:


> But seeing as the VIV has been brought into account - why use a RUB over a VIV, what are the benefits to each?


Wooden vivs can't be completely and properly disinfected. Glass ones can - but it's a hassle, and they're so heavy that it's difficult to do. Plastic tubs (and indeed plastic vivs) can be lifted easily, properly disinfected and cleaned with a minimum of fuss.

The only advantage vivs had is that they're front opening ... but I found a system that allowed me a front opening plastic racking system, so they don't even have that advantage for me anymore.


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## spirit975

I think the emotional capacity of reptiles and their need for mental stimulation must be taken into account. How many snakes get walked twice a day? How many bearded dragons play fetch? I`ve never seen a royal python swinging from tree branches and picking fleas off its family group members..
As long as any animal has everything that suits its individual requirements then we are doing all we can to cater for their needs, otherwise it comes back to the main question of should any animal be kept in captivity? 
Most reptiles to my knowledge live on instinct. They hunt, hide, breed and defend. Most have no social group therefore no desire for interaction. We may like to think our beloved pet snake loves to be stroked and petted, but its more likely he merely tolerates it. 
As long as they are given what they need, whether they have a cardboard box as a hide, or a £20 "super dooper snake hide" they don`t care as long as its there. If they prefer small spaces, give them small spaces. As Toyah says, they don`t care what their home is made of, as long as they have everything they need inside.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

Mmm, okay.

I should also imagine that RUBs in comparison to VIVs are more ecconomical in both space requirements and cost, is this correct?

It would stand to reason that perhaps a rack of twenty RUBs would take up less space than VIVs of the same quantity?

And also l should imagine there would be a much lower cost factor involved?

Moving off slightly, how much interaction is there between owner of reptiles kept in VIVs to say those kept in RUBs.

So space convenience, and costing so far ... yes?

[PS Have taken into consideration the valid point of opaque affording cover to certain species, whereas glass would not offer this very same protection]

R


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## Maureen Collinson

Lots of reasons for the use of 'rubs', which include the advantages, but we know everything usually has some down side, so lets mention one or two here, and then see what reaction it brings. 

Rubs are known for steaming up badly at times, usually when a snake is not content with their environment, and so is continually going round and round and in and out of it's water bowl. Is this type of behavior from an individual snake something we should take note of, and therefore move the snake to somewhere else where it will be more content, or do we leave it where it is, knowing that it could well end up with a nasty RI infection, which could be fungal and thus hard to treat? This example is a very big downside to keeping some snakes in boxes, and it's not certain species, just individual snakes.

From my point of view, the boxes have their uses for quite a few reasons, including the fact that some snakes appear more content in them. Thinking of royals here for starters, although again, this does not include all royals, as I have seen royals suffer from that type of confinement too, so as long as people remember that every snake is different in what it feels content with, and they have not opted for just a racking system, and thus done away with vivs for them, things should be okay, but to the person that opts straight for a racking system and has no alternative, I believe they could come very unstuck if they get a snake that is unhappy with it's lot, especially if they don't then have the space to add a viv or two. It would mean that they would have to give that snake a different environment in order for the snake to get better, and then it would require Vet treatment in most cases, and should never be put back in a plastic box again, other than maybe for short spells such as traveling, or feeding, or cleaning out. If no other alternative has been allowed for, then there is a problem as the snake will get worse and could die, and not many will take on an ill snake
knowingly, when it could cost them a lot of time and money.

The good side for a moment, is that the boxes are easier to clean than the vivs.  The appositive of that is the bad side, which often is the fact that the boxes are quick to do, and so the snake that resides there is only handled briefly, and as many are kept in boxes with no height to them, this means that the snakes don't get the chance to exercise correctly which can lead to weakened muscles which can cause constipation, and egg binding just to name a couple of things. 

To sum up. I have the boxes, and they do have some good uses, but long term, I believe in giving my snakes the chance to chose the box or a viv, and then work from that, as my main concern is for them. Unless under quarantine, ill, old and unable to climb, or move around a lot, I prefer them to be in a viv, but I do have snakes here that are healthy, and judging by their behavior in a viv and a box, have been allowed to remain in the boxes, as it does seem to suit them, and they never seem to steam their boxes up either, accept for when they expel a rather large amount of fecal material at the warm end of their boxes. I do however ensure that these snakes are brought out and made to use their muscles well in order hopefully, for them to remain in good shape. 


I wander away from the boxes issue for a moment now, in order to talk about the keeper of snakes today, and know that in order to find out about the species they keep, ( there are always exceptions to the rule, thank goodness) they read books, they search the internet, and chat on forums such as here, and that is often as far as it goes when they opt for the racking systems. Why? because when tucked away from sight in their boxes, the snakes cannot be observed, and so todays keeper that chooses the box system, misses out on so much. Different species have different ways about them, and to be honest that has always been the most important part for me. Observing the different behavior, via their body movements for one, and guess what, snakes have a lot to say, and if you study them for long enough you can read what they say with their body movements in most instances, and even learn to mimic some of their movements, and thus communicate with them. This still occurs well with lizard keepers, but then the lizards get to be in a viv in most cases, where as todays trend seems to be leaning somewhat more towards these racking systems, so the learning for many is curtailed, and the animals may not be given the choice which I consider every caring keeper should be prepared to offer their animals.

Mo.


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## freekygeeky

i dont ppersonally like RUBS
i had one, it seemed to steam up.
the geckos cuuldnt see out properly... (not compellty see through)
and i personally think vivs look nicer.

but i think it depends why you have leos..

if its a pet, i would prefer a bigger enviroment and ''betrter'' looking in my opinion. i like to see my geckos thruogh glass(much clearer) and for some reason seeing a rack next to say a stack of vivs... vivs look more homely, and RUBS look for clinical.. etc

hope that made sense.


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## Maureen Collinson

Forgot to mention that for some nervous reptiles the thought of someone approaching them from above is frightening, as that is how predators like birds swoop down on them. I have known instances where this fear never goes away until the snake is moved to a front opening viv. 

Mo.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

Valid points Mo, and thankyou : victory:

Admittedly, l did wonder about the interaction from those whom own reptiles and those that live in the RUB?

It is as you wisely state, all too easy to ignore, for want of a description certain individuals on a daily basis if they are not being seen, and only perhaps being handled when either feeding or cleaning is active.

This in turn then brings me into the realms of why have something that you can not see?

The whole aspect of ownership is to enjoy the companionship levels of your charges is it not?

I had a similiar conversation with Chaz only last weekend, ironically.

R


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## sparkle

i have all my animals on vivs bar one..

funyn thing is he has a perfectly lovely vivarium.. all kitted out we have tried him in it 6 times in 12 months..

he becomes aggressive flighty and stops feeding

each time i return him to a RUB he is calm feeds well and isnt flighty at all..

personally i prefer vivariums.. however one of my snakes doesnt..

so im not going to force him to be scared and a non-feeder...

worrying thing is if i was FORCED to put him in a viv if new laws came in hed be as unhappy as a duck in the desert


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## freekygeeky

p.s

i also liek to see my geckos without disturbign them...
also goign in to a viv seems to scare teh gecko (form above) so being able to open a viv door, works much better.


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## Maureen Collinson

freekygeeky said:


> i dont ppersonally like RUBS
> i had one, it seemed to steam up.
> the geckos cuuldnt see out properly... (not compellty see through)
> and i personally think vivs look nicer.
> 
> but i think it depends why you have leos..
> 
> if its a pet, i would prefer a bigger enviroment and ''betrter'' looking in my opinion. i like to see my geckos thruogh glass(much clearer) and for some reason seeing a rack next to say a stack of vivs... vivs look more homely, and RUBS look for clinical.. etc
> 
> hope that made sense.



Hi Freeky. 

Clinical yes, and thus can be an asset short term in Vets and rescue centres, and where you need to restrict an snake from moving around too much, due to one or more reasons, and as already said for those snakes that really do wish to remain fully hidden from the world in order to feel safe enough, for them to cam down and feed well, etc. 

Mo.


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## freekygeeky

yup 
and for my collection, they just dont work. 
especially cresties hehe!
imaghine opengin them every day, they would keep jumping out!


Maureen Collinson said:


> Hi Freeky.
> 
> Clinical yes, and thus can be an asset short term in Vets and rescue centres, and where you need to restrict an snake from moving around too much, due to one or more reasons, and as already said for those snakes that really do wish to remain fully hidden from the world in order to feel safe enough, for them to cam down and feed well, etc.
> 
> Mo.


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## toyah

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Mmm, okay.
> 
> I should also imagine that RUBs in comparison to VIVs are more ecconomical in both space requirements and cost, is this correct?
> 
> It would stand to reason that perhaps a rack of twenty RUBs would take up less space than VIVs of the same quantity?
> 
> And also l should imagine there would be a much lower cost factor involved?


A stack of 20 RUBs would take up exactly the same amount of space as a stack of 20 vivariums of the same size ;-) Of course, you would probably have them the other way round so the long side was against the wall, so the same size but the other way round.

I imagine RUBs are cheaper, though possibly not much cheaper once you factor in a racking system? I haven't bought any new wooden vivs for a while, as I have enough here unoccupied to put me off buying more for now so I couldn't comment on their prices.



TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Moving off slightly, how much interaction is there between owner of reptiles kept in VIVs to say those kept in RUBs.


While I sort of understand the question you're trying to ask here, I think what you're talking about is more to do with the owner, and not with the housing provided. I do not think it would be at all possible to make any reasonable and accurate generalisation on this.

(Personally, I keep snakes in RUBs and in vivs. Both groups get handled around the same amount, though the exact time is based on the individual snake, not on what material their home is made of)



Maureen Collinson said:


> Rubs are known for steaming up badly at times, usually when a snake is not content with their environment, and so is continually going round and round and in and out of it's water bowl. Is this type of behavior from an individual snake something we should take note of, and therefore move the snake to somewhere else where it will be more content, or do we leave it where it is, knowing that it could well end up with a nasty RI infection, which could be fungal and thus hard to treat? This example is a very big downside to keeping some snakes in boxes, and it's not certain species, just individual snakes.


That's interesting as it's not something I've ever had any issue with - though our boxes are well ventilated and kitted out in a way I hope prevents boredom for the more active snakes. A lack of "contentment" in an animal with its environment, whatever that environment is, means the owner needs to intervene - an owner ignoring it and allowing a snake to get an RI from humidity in a tub, or sores on the nose from not settling in a vivarium is surely again an issue where the owner is negligent, rather than an inherent failing of the housing system? Any owner should be aware of how their animals are behaving, and one who isn't is not a good owner, no matter what housing their animals are in.



Maureen Collinson said:


> The good side for a moment, is that the boxes are easier to clean than the vivs.  The appositive of that is the bad side, which often is the fact that the boxes are quick to do, and so the snake that resides there is only handled briefly, and as many are kept in boxes with no height to them, this means that the snakes don't get the chance to exercise correctly which can lead to weakened muscles which can cause constipation, and egg binding just to name a couple of things.


Again - I agree, and wouldn't recommend the use of "flat" boxes for active snakes with even occasional arboreal tendencies such as corns.

An eighteen inch high vivarium with one branch in it provides little opportunity for exercise. A foot high box with branches and "perches" provides much more opportunity. I feel weakened muscles is just as much of a potential issue in vivariums - again, this seems another issue where really, it just comes down to common sense and a bit of thought on the part of the keeper.

On the subject of cleaning, a box in my RUB rack takes the same amount of time to spot clean as a vivarium would, because it's essentially the same thing. It does take a lot less time to properly clean and disinfect a tub, since I can take it into the bathroom and clean it, dry it, and bring it back. Suits me, as I tend not to handle my snakes while I am busy cleaning (hot water, disinfectant and snakes not making the best mix IMO). The less time it takes me to clean a house out, the more time I have to spend with the animal that lives inside it!



Maureen Collinson said:


> because when tucked away from sight in their boxes, the snakes cannot be observed, and so todays keeper that chooses the box system, misses out on so much.


Sitting here, with several banks of vivariums in my line of sight, and three different racking systems, I can see all of my snakes who aren't currently in hides. I don't know what racking systems you use, but mine use almost clear plastic boxes - that's one of the reasons I went for the RUB racking, as I find them pleasantly clear.


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## Graylord

Maureen Collinson said:


> Lots of reasons for the use of 'rubs', which include the advantages, but we know everything usually has some down side, so lets mention one or two here, and then see what reaction it brings.
> 
> Rubs are known for steaming up badly at times, usually when a snake is not content with their environment, and so is continually going round and round and in and out of it's water bowl. Is this type of behavior from an individual snake something we should take note of, and therefore move the snake to somewhere else where it will be more content, or do we leave it where it is, knowing that it could well end up with a nasty RI infection, which could be fungal and thus hard to treat? This example is a very big downside to keeping some snakes in boxes, and it's not certain species, just individual snakes.
> 
> From my point of view, the boxes have their uses for quite a few reasons, including the fact that some snakes appear more content in them. Thinking of royals here for starters, although again, this does not include all royals, as I have seen royals suffer from that type of confinement too, so as long as people remember that every snake is different in what it feels content with, and they have not opted for just a racking system, and thus done away with vivs for them, things should be okay, but to the person that opts straight for a racking system and has no alternative, I believe they could come very unstuck if they get a snake that is unhappy with it's lot, especially if they don't then have the space to add a viv or two. It would mean that they would have to give that snake a different environment in order for the snake to get better, and then it would require Vet treatment in most cases, and should never be put back in a plastic box again, other than maybe for short spells such as traveling, or feeding, or cleaning out. If no other alternative has been allowed for, then there is a problem as the snake will get worse and could die, and not many will take on an ill snake
> knowingly, when it could cost them a lot of time and money.
> 
> The good side for a moment, is that the boxes are easier to clean than the vivs.  The appositive of that is the bad side, which often is the fact that the boxes are quick to do, and so the snake that resides there is only handled briefly, and as many are kept in boxes with no height to them, this means that the snakes don't get the chance to exercise correctly which can lead to weakened muscles which can cause constipation, and egg binding just to name a couple of things.
> 
> To sum up. I have the boxes, and they do have some good uses, but long term, I believe in giving my snakes the chance to chose the box or a viv, and then work from that, as my main concern is for them. Unless under quarantine, ill, old and unable to climb, or move around a lot, I prefer them to be in a viv, but I do have snakes here that are healthy, and judging by their behavior in a viv and a box, have been allowed to remain in the boxes, as it does seem to suit them, and they never seem to steam their boxes up either, accept for when they expel a rather large amount of fecal material at the warm end of their boxes. I do however ensure that these snakes are brought out and made to use their muscles well in order hopefully, for them to remain in good shape.
> 
> 
> I wander away from the boxes issue for a moment now, in order to talk about the keeper of snakes today, and know that in order to find out about the species they keep, ( there are always exceptions to the rule, thank goodness) they read books, they search the internet, and chat on forums such as here, and that is often as far as it goes when they opt for the racking systems. Why? because when tucked away from sight in their boxes, the snakes cannot be observed, and so todays keeper that chooses the box system, misses out on so much. Different species have different ways about them, and to be honest that has always been the most important part for me. Observing the different behavior, via their body movements for one, and guess what, snakes have a lot to say, and if you study them for long enough you can read what they say with their body movements in most instances, and even learn to mimic some of their movements, and thus communicate with them. This still occurs well with lizard keepers, but then the lizards get to be in a viv in most cases, where as todays trend seems to be leaning somewhat more towards these racking systems, so the learning for many is curtailed, and the animals may not be given the choice which I consider every caring keeper should be prepared to offer their animals.
> 
> Mo.


You must have the highest word count per post on this group:lol2:
I had to stop half way through to make a brew!


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## Graylord

Maureen Collinson said:


> Forgot to mention that for some nervous reptiles the thought of someone approaching them from above is frightening, as that is how predators like birds swoop down on them. I have known instances where this fear never goes away until the snake is moved to a front opening viv.
> 
> Mo.


 
I think there is a lot of truth in this statement my `nazzy ` retic only got nazzy once it was taken out of a viv into a box.

Being -in my opinion- highly strung snakes i don`t think tubs are ideal for retics ,mine is going back in a viv sooner rather than later.


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## Esarosa

I personally keep my babies/youngsters in RUB's and move them into their adult vivs as they mature and get bigger. And feel more secure in a larger space.

As for having less interaction. For me at least that is COMPLETELY Untrue. The rub's are on my old pc desk, I can see into all of them at a glance. They all get handled on a regular basis and all come out at least once a day. With the exception to this being when they are digesting obviously. They all have the taller Rub's with either bamboo, bridges, garden cane's drilled through, so they have somewhere to climb. They all have fresh water, two hides, 1 moist hide. Well ventilated. Modded lids (to avoid any hanging issues that some reported a few years back). And I can't say I often notice humidity problems. With the odd exception being Lumi when she's shedding. Who refuses to use her moist hide and would rather sit in her water bowl and then flick it all over. The rest of the time she seems completely content though. As soon as she's shed she's back to normal.

I have an adult royal who point blank hated living in a viv. Never came out, stopped eating. Temperature/humidity etc was perfect he just didn't like it. Moved him into a 50L RUB as a temporary measure. And suddenly he was eating fine, venturing out for a wander of a night. Moved his RUB size up gradually. Filling extra space with lots more hides so it's not to much of a shock and he's adjusted well. Will be trying him with his 'big boy' viv in a month or so, and hoping that this time he seems happier as he's quite a bit bigger now. If he doesn't it will be the RUB again.

I agree with the first few posters that you can't compare snakes & primates. They have completely different requirements. The majority of snakes feel more secure in snug spaces, wheras primates don't. They need stimulation,entertainment...alot more enrichment than a snake.

If at any point I thought how I keep my animals was cruel or made them unhappy I would change it or rehome them. As it is they all feed and shed perfectly, all seem content and comfortable.


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## essexchondro

> Okay, so here is a question that was posed to me the other day, so where else best to ask it accept here on one of the leading UK reptile Forums.
> 
> I fight against primates being kept in oversized and undersized parrot cages in the loungeroom - because they lack space, enrichment, environment and stimulation.
> 
> Someone asked me the other day, why so many reptile keepers could openly complain about primate habitats when in reality so many Reptile Keepers keep species in RUB's - which l believe stands for Really Useful Box, although perhaps it should be called a RUPB - really useful plastic box.
> 
> The primate keepers ' question was simple - if it is appalling to keep a primate in an undersized parrot cage in the loungeroom then why is it acceptable to house a reptile in a RUB?
> 
> Why should anyone keep a 'reptile' in a plastic box?
> 
> Do these RUBs provide the right enrichment, stimulation and environment for the occupants.
> 
> And does it not actually encourage more keepers to become lazy in their keeping by keeping them in purely plastic tubs??
> 
> Its l thought a relatively good question.
> 
> R


It an interesting question, but its also one thats inherently flawed;

1 This question is built upon the presupposition that primates and reptiles are similar enough for it to be possible to compare one with the other in any meaningful way with respect to the issue at hand. I would question this presupposition. 

2 The comparison presupposes a similarity between poor primate housing and RUBs. Where is the evidence to justify this comparison in the first instance? Why is a plastic tub coming under fire but not a viv of the same dimensions (such a big deal is made over the fact its made of plastic and I can't understand how that's relevant)? Reading between the lines I get a feeling that this suggestion that tubs are inadequate is built upon the idea that because they're cheap and not specifically designed for reptiles that they can't be suitable for them (even though the evidence appears to tell a different story).

In short, its ok to keep reptiles in RUB's because they have proved themselves to be suitable for housing reptiles. Its not OK to keep primates in enclosures that have proved themselves unsuitable for primates. 

Stuart


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## Ally

The thing I like about the RUBs is that they can be modified. All of mine have extra ventilation holes in them made with a soldering iron (it leaves a lovely smooth melted bit of plastic around the hole if it's really hot - nothing to get damaged on) and it's really easy to cut a big hole in the front and silicone a perspex panel in for viewing.

Since all my reptiles are in a shed, I need the enclosures to be light enough for me to lift them out on my own to disinfect them properly - plastic is perfect!
I do have vivs for the larger things, but find the boxes just perfect for baby snakes, baby and adult geckos, frogs, tarantulas etc. They're all decorated with as much care as I would put into a viv. I wouldn't want them getting bored in there!


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## slither61

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> I agree that the comparison is not brilliant, however l think the point they were trying to raise was this:
> 
> That if animals under the codes of practice are to be offered an enriched life environment, does the plastic box afford this?
> 
> Many reptile keepers l know do not use them, but equally as many do, and there are of course arguments on both sides of the coin in defence and opposition to the RUB.
> 
> But seeing as the VIV has been brought into account - why use a RUB over a VIV, what are the benefits to each?
> 
> R


Hi all,

Vivs are more expensive than Rub's to the comparable size, I think 84 litres is the biggest they do which gives floor space and height 50 litre floor space but less height.

84 litre L 26" D 15" W 16"

50 litre L 26" D 8" W 16" these are rough measurements.

So they are cheeper than a two foot viv, after that you have to use vivs.

I don't think you can compare snakes with primates, my own personal feeling they should be in Zoos or big animal parks. They are group animals .
I don't think a person can give them the stimulation they need, they need their own kind.

slither61:snake::snake::snake::snake:


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## gaz

the question itself is the biggest problem here, "enrichment" being the key word,snakes are secretive animals which in the wild are either hidden away/hunting/basking...........they dont watch TV/play with toys etc etc so to enrich a captive snakes life all thats needed is to provide food/shelter/water/temp gradient/humidity gradient/cover from (imaginary)predators most boids would be quite happy spending 95% OF THEIR CAPTIVE LIVES IN A WARM DRAINPIPE just emerging to feed/mate/drink in the wild boas for example are very hard to find as they are hidden in dark places rodent burrows/piles of wood/under rocks etc almost their entire lives.

after all if we kept amoebas how on earth would we "enrich" their lives or woodlice/cockroaches/worms/lobsters etc for reptiles the codes need an entirely reptile oriented approach,same for amphibians/fish/invertebrates tis just not sensible for the approach to primates/mammals to be foisted on to reptiles unchanged, realistically any idea of enriching a reptiles life is purely subjective any way as we cant reasonably tell if we succeed or not beyong the basic requirements.
regards gaz


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## essexchondro

> the question itself is the biggest problem here, "enrichment" being the key word,snakes are secretive animals which in the wild are either hidden away/hunting/basking...........they dont watch TV/play with toys etc etc so to enrich a captive snakes life all thats needed is to provide food/shelter/water/temp gradient/humidity gradient/cover from (imaginary)predators most boids would be quite happy spending 95% OF THEIR CAPTIVE LIVES IN A WARM DRAINPIPE just emerging to feed/mate/drink in the wild boas for example are very hard to find as they are hidden in dark places rodent burrows/piles of wood/under rocks etc almost their entire lives.
> 
> after all if we kept amoebas how on earth would we "enrich" their lives or woodlice/cockroaches/worms/lobsters etc for reptiles the codes need an entirely reptile oriented approach,same for amphibians/fish/invertebrates tis just not sensible for the approach to primates/mammals to be foisted on to reptiles unchanged, realistically any idea of enriching a reptiles life is purely subjective any way as we cant reasonably tell if we succeed or not beyong the basic requirements.
> regards gaz


Well said, gaz. 

This foistering of a mammal-based approach/ideology to husbandry onto reptiles is also what lies at the heart of most of the "anti-brigades" reasoning as to why reptile keeping should be banned. Discredit the foundations of their argument (and its pretty easy to do so) and they really have nothing much of value to say at all when it comes to reptiles.

cheers

Stuart


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## gaz

put "bunny-huggers" on the pest list and shoot them,then we would'nt have this foisted upon us at all
regards gaz


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## htf666

The biggest rub is now a 145l measuring 810 x 620 x 430mm. Harry


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## Magnum0

I recently moved my reptiles into plastic tubs in a rack.
The tubs are suitable sizes, have the correct temperatures and water supply and hides. What more do they want?
It is easier for me to clean them out, and therefore, i clean them out more thoroughly.
Obviously only reptiles that are suitably kept in tubs should be kept in them. I wouldn't keep a beardie in one, but thats common sense. They have everything they need and they will not get any more 'bored' than they would in a wooden viv.


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## Ssthisto

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> It is as you wisely state, all too easy to ignore, for want of a description certain individuals on a daily basis if they are not being seen, and only perhaps being handled when either feeding or cleaning is active.


Although I check on every single animal in my collection every single day... I DO only handle them when I am doing the weekly clean-and-feed. The snakes prefer that; they behave much better when I don't mess about with them. They're pets - but they're pets on their terms, not the terms of someone who wants a living thing to pull onto their lap, snuggle and stroke. I'm fully aware my snakes tolerate being handled and do not actively seek it out - that's their choice and who am I to inflict my presence and force an animal to allow a large predator to manhandle it?



> This in turn then brings me into the realms of why have something that you can not see?
> 
> The whole aspect of ownership is to enjoy the companionship levels of your charges is it not?


Not necessarily.

Not all of my snakes are "pets" as such. That doesn't mean I shouldn't own them - it just means that I'm not going to treat them as though they were puppies and kittens. Doing so would almost guarantee me three nonfeeders and a heck of a lot more trying to fetch Fusion the radiated rat snake out from behind the vivariums.

I have several snakes who are essentially "box of sand". You only see them when you're feeding or cleaning - and that's how they like it. 

I have MANY snakes who are essentially "decorated enclosure that occasionally produces a poo". Again, a hiding snake is a happy snake.

In that respect, the fact that Really Usefuls give the animals the "belief" they're hiding due to their frosted sides makes the animals more visible for me - because they don't instantly react to my presence when I walk into a room. I have a couple of noseyparkers who do peer out at me whether they're in a viv OR a RUB; all of them get interaction based on their individual reactions to that interaction. 

I'll also second Toyah's statement that it's a LOT easier to clean and sterilise a Really Useful - not least because it can be lifted, shucked into the bathroom or outside and given a thorough cleaning. I couldn't lift and hoick about a two-foot wooden vivarium so easily, but a 64-litre Really Useful is simple.


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## essexchondro

> The whole aspect of ownership is to enjoy the companionship levels of your charges is it not?


*No, its not.*

That kind of thinking is a prime example of how some people view reptiles from a "mammal perspective" and then try to pass judgement on reptile keepers because we don't interact with our reptiles in the same way that they interact with their dogs/cats/rabbits....

Stuart


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## TSKA Rory Matier

I am not looking to pass 'judgement' on reptile keepers, although this thread has looked at various aspects.

Personally l could not see how any reptile keeper could even achieve companionship with their charges ... but that is personally my opinion.

So another aspect to look at is this:

"If not companionship nor interaction - what then do you achieve in the way of satisfaction with a reptile collection?"

R


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## Ssthisto

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> I am not looking to pass 'judgement' on reptile keepers, although this thread has looked at various aspects.
> 
> Personally l could not see how any reptile keeper could even achieve companionship with their charges ... but that is personally my opinion.
> 
> So another aspect to look at is this:
> 
> "If not companionship nor interaction - what then do you achieve in the way of satisfaction with a reptile collection?"
> 
> R


Exactly the same thing that someone with a group of finches or a tropical/marine aquarium does.

The joy in sharing your life with such beautiful, fascinating living things.


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## sparkle

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> I am not looking to pass 'judgement' on reptile keepers, although this thread has looked at various aspects.
> 
> Personally l could not see how any reptile keeper could even achieve companionship with their charges ... but that is personally my opinion.
> 
> So another aspect to look at is this:
> 
> "If not companionship nor interaction - what then do you achieve in the way of satisfaction with a reptile collection?"
> 
> R


can i explain something then..  and of course its only answering your issue of not being able to personally see how companionship can be achieved with reps..

since i was diagnosed with a serious neurological disorder..
I have been unable to work.. i am trained in 3 areas.. a mortgage advisor, counsellor and also as an arts worker...
some days i am too ill to leave the house so hence i required something that would allow me not to feel stifled and bored within my own home.. I have two diplomas and a very active mind.. so am easily bored

i kept reptiles several years ago when in england so chose to do so again.. this i could achive easily in my own home as it was safe, challenging and interesting...
since re-starting the reptile keeping i have bonded with reps on many levels..

I have rescued sick and injured ones so afraid of humans they would bang themselves off glass.. etc
snakes who were kept in poor conditions and handled as SHOWOFFS with drunk and stoned idiots... 
i have been patient.. been bitten and been worried half to death trying to save the weakest most poorly or stressed reptiles...
and have managed to bring most back with specialist vet care.. and a TON of patience

one example would be Gee the water dragon... when we first got gee from a young boy she came out her rotting stinking viv and threw herself at the window in his room repeatedly she was petrified and not eating.. she was lethargic and stil in the viv and once again we tried taking her out only for her to go crazy throwing herself off windows and walls...
I took her home immediately and started studying everyhting i could... about reptiles brains.. how they MIGHT form and work and are different to ours.. what they need to feel satisifed and safe...

NOT pinning human emotion on them... like happy or cute

i spent months gaining her trust... allowed her special attention by placing her viv next to my pc where i am a lot.. and no other rep was..
if i ever looked at her.. and she seemed skitty.. or scared id glance away and stay still.. i wanted her to be de sensitised to all the noise and stress shed had at her last home...



i slowly very slowly tamed her , got her eating well and had others come in the room bit by bit.. at first opening the viv when others were in the room would make her go crazy.. i had to rel in that bit many times... start again..
make sure noone opened her viv excpet me .. there were many more steps inbetween that and where we are now...

i then moved her into the same room as the rest of my reps..
allowed people to walk by the viv slowly.. then more normally..
eventually shes now happy as can be in a busy room with lots of people.. 

chilled and chubby... eating great and loves getting out to chase mealworms..

shes so tame and friendly ( allbeit shes not my friend but she IS a freindly dragon in that she will come and sit with you) she even sits on my head whilst im on pc.. something i never could have imagined..
from a very frightened disturbed lizard who was petrified of people and wouldnt eat i now have a gorgeous girl.. whos friendly tame and eats amazingly..

for 6 months she wouldnt be calm with anyone but me it took a LONG time for her to feel safe enough to let others be around her..

if that isnt bonding what is??

I think your issue rory.. is this


BONDING to you is not what it will be to everyone.. its personal... and totally different from person to person..

your opinion of bonding will not, nor should be mine.. or anyone elses for that matter...


Im happy for you to experience keeper/ animal bonding whatever way u please.. with whatever animal you wish...

and im happy if you can accept as you obviously dont understand ( and us reptile keepers dont need you to understand frankly) that we also FEEL bonding in our way..


I do not see what I did as interaction.. i see it 100% as bonding...

interaction is feeding and cleaning... whereas this went way past that...

however to some bonding may and can be feeding and cleaning.. bonding is subjective to feelings thoughts and opinion.. and cannot be quantified.


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## Flutterbye

I keep my young dwarf boa's in seperate RUB's. They have 3 hides each, cool hide, warm hide, and a moss hide in the middle, plenty of room to move around. They each have a decent sized water bowl for bathing, fake plants and branches for climbing and substrate to bury themselves in if they feel the need to. They have plenty of ventilation, heatmats and stats. All the things i'd have in a heavy wooden box with sliding glass doors aka a standard vivarium. What more could i give a snake besides its freedom? The fact that RUB's are plastic, allows you to move it around easier....which means for me personally i can clean them thoroughly and properly. The plastic is also clear, this way i can keep an eye on my snakes without disturbing them. Plastic is easy to drill holes into so i can give my snakes the appropriate ventilation they need. I don't plan to keep them in RUB's forever as they will eventually outgrow them but untill they do i believe this is a very safe, appropriate and decent 'plastic box' for keeping snakes in. Also it is quite impossible for snakes to escape from RUB's. If i thought it at all cruel to keep them in RUB's i wouldn't as my snakes are my pride and joy. I haven't become lazy when it comes to giving them the cleaning, care and attention they need infact RUB's have made it that bit easier for me to do so.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

Thanks for your response Sparkle, before your editing l had followed it fairly well and saw it in some ways as both a response to myself and Essexchondro.


How reptile keepers choose to interact and bond with their animals is up to them .......... each to their own.

Just because l choose not to keep reptiles, does not mean l dont understand what emotions keepers do or do not have with them - l just like to see things from all angles.

Whether Reptile keepers ' ........... dont need you to understand frankly' could be misinterpreted - as basically to say back off! In a time when reptile keepers need as much understanding permitted to them as is possible is not the tme for such comments about people not getting it and as such it does not matter.

Nerys is a reptile keeper and l will never understand why she does it, although from Ssthistos response of 'The joy in sharing your life with such beautiful, fascinating living things' is sufficient for me.

I have read this thread through and through from the original question posed by a primate keeper aimed at reptile keepers to the open responses and at times if read correctly, hostile responses to mammal keepers at large.

Strange when all keepers are basically keepers that still in this day and age, reptile keepers show themselves to be no different to many other keeping factions, that we are who we are, and you are who you are and that is it simple as!

R


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## essexchondro

> I am not looking to pass 'judgement' on reptile keepers, although this thread has looked at various aspects.


But in a sense you are; you're trying to measure/judge reptile keepers against the "yard stick" of companionship. The problem being that that very term doesn't really apply to reptile keeping...at least not in a way recognisable to owners of cats/dogs etc etc. This is always the fundamental problem of this whole type of debate; its always constituted from an understanding and ideology that is not compatible with reptiles and reptile keeping. 



> Personally l could not see how any reptile keeper could even achieve companionship with their charges ... but that is personally my opinion.


See my above comments. The flaw in your thinking is to presuppose that we're actually trying to achieve companionship in the first place, or that if we are it will be a type of companionship that a dog/cat/primate owner would recognise as such.




> So another aspect to look at is this:
> 
> "If not companionship nor interaction - what then do you achieve in the way of satisfaction with a reptile collection?"
> 
> R


My personal answer to that question is that I keep beautiful animals that, on the whole, I'm happy to just look at. I also enjoy breeding them and producing more beautiful animals. I don't really consider myself a pet owner; I'm a hobbyist and they're my collection. 

Stuart


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## Athravan

For the RUB issue - there is no difference between a well ventilated RUB and a wooden vivarium in terms of enrichment or quality of life for an animal assuming that the size is fair and the setup correct. What difference does it make if it's a plastic box? Likening a RUB to a parrot cage for a monkey is a gross exageration. A parrot cage for a monkey is more like keeping an adult corn snake in a cricket tub, not a RUB. Any animal if confined into a space where it cannot get any measure of exercise or stimulation over long periods of time will obviously suffer, a primate has higher needs though than a reptile in terms of companionship and mental stimulation so really cannot be compared. A RUB can provide the needs of many reptiles, obviously depending upon the species, the size of tub, and what the keeper does with it.

In regards to why we keep them, it is a question you have asked before as I'm sure you are aware, I personally have no idea why people would keep a primate as a pet, or any other plethora of animals that I believe should be kept in zoos because of the space & time issues - including some reptiles, like Komodo dragons (just so i'm not being mammal specific), but people do keep them in private collections.

There is no doubt in my mind that most reptiles are easily kept in captivity with no detriment to them (assuming the keeper is a responsible one!) therefore I do not see that anyone should have to justify the why, as long as they can verify the how.

One of the dictionary definitions for companionship is "the state of being with someone". Many people spend time with their reptiles, and this fulfills them in some way, or they wouldn't waste their time on it. Time is a precious thing and those that choose to spend it with a snake are making a companion of that snake. The animal does not have to reciprocate for it to justify our feelings.


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## essexchondro

> Thanks for your response Sparkle, before your editing l had followed it fairly well and saw it in some ways as both a response to myself and Essexchondro.
> 
> 
> How reptile keepers choose to interact and bond with their animals is up to them .......... each to their own.


But again there is a fundamental problem with terminology because you're approaching this from a mammal based ideology; "interact" and "bond" mean something very different with reptiles than they do with cats/dogs etc. The problem is that the questions asked seem to always presuppose the mammalian definition of the terms and then judge reptile keepers in the mammalian context. For "each to their own" to really apply you need to judge each on their own terms, not the terms of the other.



> Just because l choose not to keep reptiles, does not mean l dont understand what emotions keepers do or do not have with them - l just like to see things from all angles.


Possibly, but you'll never get a true understanding if you try to understand those emotions through the mammalian context as it makes far too many irrelevant presuppositions. 



> Whether Reptile keepers ' ........... dont need you to understand frankly' could be misinterpreted - as basically to say back off! In a time when reptile keepers need as much understanding permitted to them as is possible is not the tme for such comments about people not getting it and as such it does not matter.


I would agree that there's no need for rudeness and hostility...but this whole debate does get tiresome when its constantly framed through so many incompatible and irrelevant presuppositions. Constantly debating reptiles and reptile keeping while starting our from a mammal-based ideology is a bit like asking a load of priests and bishops to get together to discuss the merits of Islam; the whole debate and the way in which its constituted will be flawed from the outset!



> Nerys is a reptile keeper and l will never understand why she does it, although from Ssthistos response of 'The joy in sharing your life with such beautiful, fascinating living things' is sufficient for me.
> 
> I have read this thread through and through from the original question posed by a primate keeper aimed at reptile keepers to the open responses and at times if read correctly, hostile responses to mammal keepers at large.


If I went on a primate forum and started a topic like this I wonder what responses I'd get? Another point to remember is that quite a large percentage of reptile keepers are also mammal keepers, I wonder if you can say the same about mammal keepers also keeping reptiles? Our hostility is not to mammal keepers _per se,_ its to the way some of them try to question reptile keeping from the safety and comfort of their (largely irrelevant) mammalian ideology. 



> Strange when all keepers are basically keepers that still in this day and age, reptile keepers show themselves to be no different to many other keeping factions, that we are who we are, and you are who you are and that is it simple as!
> 
> R


:lol2:. If its as simple as that was there a need for the thread in the first place?

cheers

Stuart


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## Ssthisto

They're not so much hostile responses to mammal keepers insomuch as they are hostile responses towards expecting a reptile - a very different creature - to ACT like a mammal and have mammal-like drive and motivation. Most mammals and birds have social grooming, for example. This is why they instinctively like petting - because they have an instinct to be groomed by other social group members. Reptiles do not appear to have anything of the sort. They have to be TAUGHT to tolerate and possibly enjoy petting.

A dog is a pack animal, with a psychological NEED to be with its pack. Having long absences from its pack and not knowing where it belongs in the pack structure can cause serious damage to a dog. Giving contact to a dog only when you feed it or clean out its pen - trying to force it to be a boa - will create a dog that is deeply stressed and unhappy.

A boa is a solitary animal that spends most of its life in a hiding place, emerging only to feed and breed. It does not have a social structure as such, other than 'push that smaller animal out of the prime basking/hiding spot' and does not require the company of others of its kind. Trying to force it to be like a dog - live with a large social group, tolerate constant handling, go out and be socialised to everything - could also create a problem with a deeply stressed boa. 

The problem arises when people who only have experience of mammalian or avian pets see the 'hands off' approach with reptiles and think "but if it was a rat it would want a friend; if it was a bird it would want space to fly around; if it was a cat it would want to be petted and stroked..." not realising that they aren't cats or rats or birds, they're lizards and snakes. I keep both mammals and reptiles, and the rats and cats couldn't be more different to the lizards and snakes if they tried. I can see some common threads - but very, very few.


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## sparkle

essexchondro said:


> But again there is a fundamental problem with terminology because you're approaching this from a mammal based ideology; "interact" and "bond" mean something very different with reptiles than they do with cats/dogs etc. The problem is that the questions asked seem to always presuppose the mammalian definition of the terms and then judge reptile keepers in the mammalian context. For "each to their own" to really apply you need to judge each on their own terms, not the terms of the other.
> 
> 
> 
> Possibly, but you'll never get a true understanding if you try to understand those emotions through the mammalian context as it makes far too many irrelevant presuppositions.
> 
> 
> 
> I would agree that there's no need for rudeness and hostility...but this whole debate does get tiresome when its constantly framed through so many incompatible and irrelevant presuppositions. Constantly debating reptiles and reptile keeping while starting our from a mammal-based ideology is a bit like asking a load of priests and bishops to get together to discuss the merits of Islam; the whole debate and the way in which its constituted will be flawed from the outset!
> 
> 
> 
> If I went on a primate forum and started a topic like this I wonder what responses I'd get? Another point to remember is that quite a large percentage of reptile keepers are also mammal keepers, I wonder if you can say the same about mammal keepers also keeping reptiles? Our hostility is not to mammal keepers _per se,_ its to the way some of them try to question reptile keeping from the safety and comfort of their (largely irrelevant) mammalian ideology.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol2:. If its as simple as that was there a need for the thread in the first place?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Stuart


 
thats exaclty how i feel.. but you said it far better,, GAH

I was trying to point out to rory that bonding is not something thats quantifiable..

its personal..

im fed up to the back teeth of people saying i dont get why u keep reps.. whats the point..
it does get boring... but i feel strongly that i had to use the word BONDING as thats what rory has initially used in his first post..

mammals and reptiles are not and never will be the same... their brains make them react and behave very differently.. initially to understand my WDs behaviour when i was trying to help her feel satisfied and safe... i studied this... not just be reading.. or taking advice but truly observation and minute changes to diet and lighting and vivarium placemrnt etc

FEEL...is also a difficult word to use.. we as humans too often apply it with human emotions..

I also do this but only on a surface level.. like

my dragons cheeky... my dragons funny

Underneath I know only too well their brain does not work that way.. im under no illusions.. but that does not stop ME feeling as though I have bonded on certain occasions.. and frankly thats the issue here.. our views on bonding


I didnt wholly use your term bonded under duress however.. as i truly FEEL i bonded with that particular dragon...


I also keep two cats... both mammals.. LOL ( sorry couldnt resist)

noone questions what i do for them ever.. should they ?? possibly..

this began cleverly as a Really USeful box thread and then was quickly changed into a thread questioning why keep reptiles..




i dont feel hostile in any way rory.. simply passionate and opinionated... two things that frankly have stood me in good stead when it comes to animals... it can be my downfall and my most positive asset.. its both... but i dont appologise for it.. i do however appologise when im blatantly wrong or have made a mistake whether meant or accidental..if i was rude or hostile i sincerely appologise.. and whilst i dont feel i was.. and perhaps my sardonic humour isnt best displayed over a forum... if rory you felt in ANYWAY i was rude im not above appologising..

so genuinely im sorry that you found me hostile and rude... i wsnt hostile to you.. just to the comparison ideals you were pushing which many other posters on this thread also found entirely pointless



Lucky you dont live in scotland rory.. LOL... were a hostile haggis swinging .. shoot from the hip race hehe

I may not always put myself across as factually or cleverly as other members on the forum but I study ever day ( boring maybe) animals behaviours and needs in captivity , i run home trials and observational analysis when i change tiny things within environments.. such as extra foliage for cresties... uv for cresties... powdered diets only compared with insects..





do royals liek to climb if given the chance... high vivs verus rubs.. funnily enough my royal pythin after 2 months now LOVES her high viv.. and she CLIMBS shock horror and happily sits on the higher branches after dusk .. is this natural behaviour NO... but in a captive enviroment nothing is really.. despite how hard we try.. and that goes for mammals / primates too... 

so i do all this.. i note everything down...

and ive only ever had ONE snake who hated a viv... a great plains rat snake as i mentioned previous..

ive had him for 18 months now... and whilst ive tried to give him a large enriched area to live in his behaviour becomes very different when in it.. as i said non-eating.. flighty etc....


I know im a bore... I know this take up and consumes such a large part of my life... but i never stop finding it fascinating or magical..

and magic is the reason i keep reps... 


ALL animal keeping is primarily selfish on differing levels.. WE WANT to share our life with them... we try to captive breed and domesticate verious sepcies.. some are easier than others.. somebeacuse they have been domesticated for years.. some becuase their brain allows domestication more easily...

they dont need us unless its for conservation or rare endangered species..

so should the question be..

given the choice would they come and bond with US...

back to the water dragon though

how the dragon sees it is not really for me to decide.. and i will never truly KNOW just liek keepers of primates can THINK they know because of certain repsonses but we wil never ever genuinely KNOW

therefore 99% of the discussion becomes mute

luckily the dragon is not on a forum having a pointless human debate whereas her stupid human is:lol2:


----------



## ratboy

Probably not a popular answer, but I hate RUB's with a passion when it comes to reptiles.

1. The point about vivariums with glass fronts and reptiles is that you can see the animals.... which is, after all, the reason people keep them isn't it ? What actually is the point in having an animal in a semi-opaque plastic box that you are never going to see ? there really seems little point in keeping the animal in the first place. More to the point... the animal does not get to see you either, so how on earth is it supposed to get used to you being around ?

2. They are top opening. Reptiles as a rule do not like being approached from above. It makes them think they are being attacked because it's exactly the right angle for a bird attack.

3. They are, in my opinion, dangerous. They only seal at each end making it quite easy for a snake to push the middle up high enough for it to make a gap big enough to be able to get it's head out of. Once it's head is through, the lid will either snap back down and throttle the unfortunate animal, or it will get out and go walkabout. Sure, the problem is easy to fix with tape or similar... but why not just buy something that is secure and not dangerous in the first place ?


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## Daredevil

ratboy said:


> Probably not a popular answer, but I hate RUB's with a passion when it comes to reptiles.
> 
> 1. The point about vivariums with glass fronts and reptiles is that you can see the animals.... which is, after all, the reason people keep them isn't it ? What actually is the point in having an animal in a semi-opaque plastic box that you are never going to see ? there really seems little point in keeping the animal in the first place. More to the point... the animal does not get to see you either, so how on earth is it supposed to get used to you being around ?
> 
> 2. They are top opening. Reptiles as a rule do not like being approached from above. It makes them think they are being attacked because it's exactly the right angle for a bird attack.
> 
> 3. They are, in my opinion, dangerous. They only seal at each end making it quite easy for a snake to push the middle up high enough for it to make a gap big enough to be able to get it's head out of. Once it's head is through, the lid will either snap back down and throttle the unfortunate animal, or it will get out and go walkabout. Sure, the problem is easy to fix with tape or similar... but why not just buy something that is secure and not dangerous in the first place ?


A few responses...

1. I can see clearly into my RUBs and the snakes can see clearly out.

2.When mine were young they were kept in faunariums where you have to approach from above so they have got used to it from a very young age and never attampt to bite.

3.Mine has tried pushing out many times and i can assure you that a Corn is not strong enough to push up a secured RUB lid.


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## essexchondro

> Probably not a popular answer, but I hate RUB's with a passion when it comes to reptiles.
> 
> 1. The point about vivariums with glass fronts and reptiles is that you can see the animals.... which is, after all, the reason people keep them isn't it ? What actually is the point in having an animal in a semi-opaque plastic box that you are never going to see ? there really seems little point in keeping the animal in the first place. More to the point... the animal does not get to see you either, so how on earth is it supposed to get used to you being around ?
> 
> 2. They are top opening. Reptiles as a rule do not like being approached from above. It makes them think they are being attacked because it's exactly the right angle for a bird attack.
> 
> 3. They are, in my opinion, dangerous. They only seal at each end making it quite easy for a snake to push the middle up high enough for it to make a gap big enough to be able to get it's head out of. Once it's head is through, the lid will either snap back down and throttle the unfortunate animal, or it will get out and go walkabout. Sure, the problem is easy to fix with tape or similar... but why not just buy something that is secure and not dangerous in the first place ?


Some very valid points there ratboy. A few comments though;

1 Your first point deals with reasons why you'd choose a viv rather than a RUB, but these reasons aren't necessarily the same thing as outlining flaws with RUB's. I'm sure there are keepers of many types of burrowing species that would question your assumption that being able to "see" their animals is the primary reason for them keeping them. Also, if the animals don't get to see you when they're kept in a RUB, then why do they have to get used to being able to see you (if they can't see you anyway)? Moving an animal from a RUB into a display viv may cause stress issues but for many species a RUB is a home for life.

2 Not all RUBs are used in this way. Most of mine, for example, that are used for gtp's and etb's are oriented on their sides so that the clear lid becomes the front viewing panel. So access is from the front just as it would be with a viv. 

3 The problem you highlight with the lids is a valid one, but if you use the tubs in a racking system (I assume the majority of tubs are used in this type of set up) then you probably wouldn't be using the lid anyway as the shelf above the tub acts as the lid.

cheers

Stuart


----------



## ratboy

bradhollands999 said:


> A few responses...
> 
> 1. I can see clearly into my RUBs and the snakes can see clearly out.
> 
> 2.When mine were young they were kept in faunariums where you have to approach from above so they have got used to it from a very young age and never attampt to bite.
> 
> 3.Mine has tried pushing out many times and i can assure you that a Corn is not strong enough to push up a secured RUB lid.


These are just my opinions and I am certainly not getting into an argument with anyone over them or changing my mind on them . 

Unfortunately, not everybody keeps corns. My Taiwanese beauty for example is kept in a 60"x24"x24" vivarium and would be out of a correctly sized 'off the shelf' RUB in a very short space of time whereas she cannot cannot get out of an 'off the shelf' viv of the same size.

ALL of my snakes get defensive if approached from above. Just because they do not bite does not mean they are not scared.


----------



## ratboy

essexchondro said:


> Some very valid points there ratboy. A few comments though;
> 
> 1 Your first point deals with reasons why you'd choose a viv rather than a RUB, but these reasons aren't necessarily the same thing as outlining flaws with RUB's.


Well it is when they are flaws that Vivariums do not suffer from surely ?



> I'm sure there are keepers of many types of burrowing species that would question your assumption that being able to "see" their animals is the primary reason for them keeping them. Also, if the animals don't get to see you when they're kept in a RUB, then why do they have to get used to being able to see you (if they can't see you anyway)? Moving an animal from a RUB into a display viv may cause stress issues but for many species a RUB is a home for life.


All I can do is express my opinions for my animals. I would not presume to wonder why people keep burrowing species as there is no way I could possibly know the answer. Personally I do not understand why people keep animals that so strongly prefer not to be seen but I am not saying they are wrong to do so. 



> 2 Not all RUBs are used in this way. Most of mine, for example, that are used for gtp's and etb's are oriented on their sides so that the clear lid becomes the front viewing panel. So access is from the front just as it would be with a viv.


Agreed, but access is not the same as with a vivarium as the whole front would need to be removed in one go. With a vivarium you do have the bonus of being able to control how much is open very well. When putting some of mine back in to their viv's for example, they do have a habit of turning back on me very quickly. Being able to slide the glass so that it touches their body eliminates the problem and has prevented them from turning and attacking very well indeed. 



> 3 The problem you highlight with the lids is a valid one, but if you use the tubs in a racking system (I assume the majority of tubs are used in this type of set up) then you probably wouldn't be using the lid anyway as the shelf above the tub acts as the lid.


If that is the case, then fine as the bottom of the rack above will hopefully prevent the problem. But it would need to be a mighty fine fit.

I think in general, they are presumably fine for many species that I do not keep and am never likely to keep and obviously I cannot comment on these. I can only comment on the species I do keep and will keep and for these, Vivariums are far more suitable for them than RUB's in my opinion.


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## Athravan

I don't think anyone would argue that across the board RUBs are more suitable than vivs, it's not the case, but on an individual species per species analysis, RUBs are certainly, in my opinion, equal to vivariums for satisfying their needs. I believe, in a few places, RUBS are superior, just as I believe, that for some species, vivs are superior.

You really do have to go about it on an species per species, and even animal by animal (as different animals will exhibit different stress factors and reactions even of the same species) and decide what is suitable for their needs.


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## essexchondro

> Well it is when they are flaws that Vivariums do not suffer from surely ?


The point I'm making is that these are your _subjective_ reasons/preferences, they aren't _objective_ flaws in the design of an RUB. They're only flaws in the sense that they don't provide a specific characteristic that you personally are looking for.



> All I can do is express my opinions for my animals. I would not presume to wonder why people keep burrowing species as there is no way I could possibly know the answer. Personally I do not understand why people keep animals that so strongly prefer not to be seen but I am not saying they are wrong to do so.


But you did presume! You presumed that being able to see the animals is the reason why people keep them. Of course, in reality that may not be the case (for example, for keepers of species that are rarely seen due to their burrowing habits). Your presumption was to prioritise "seeing" as the reason for keeping animals. If this is not in fact the case then lower visibility in RUB's becomes a moot point. 



> Agreed, but access is not the same as with a vivarium as the whole front would need to be removed in one go. With a vivarium you do have the bonus of being able to control how much is open very well. When putting some of mine back in to their viv's for example, they do have a habit of turning back on me very quickly. Being able to slide the glass so that it touches their body eliminates the problem and has prevented them from turning and attacking very well indeed.


But not all vivs have sliding glass doors. Some have doors that swing open from one side (like a street door) other open downwards etc etc.



> If that is the case, then fine as the bottom of the rack above will hopefully prevent the problem. But it would need to be a mighty fine fit.


Usually there would be a gap of a few mm for ventilation purposes so you don't need to drill holes into the tub itself. If you've got the right tools these racks can be pretty easy to build (or of course you can buy them e.g pro-racks).



> I think in general, they are presumably fine for many species that I do not keep and am never likely to keep and obviously I cannot comment on these. I can only comment on the species I do keep and will keep and for these, Vivariums are far more suitable for them than RUB's in my opinion.


That's fair comment, but your original post suggested that RUB's were not suitable for reptiles at all; you talked about reptiles in general rather than mentioning specific species (e.g. "I hate RUB's with a passion when it comes to reptiles"). Of course, no one is trying to suggest that RUB's are suitable for every species, but they are suitable for some and do not deserve the _carte blanche_ dismissal that you've subjected them to. 

cheers

Stuart


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## sparkle

ratboy said:


> These are just my opinions and I am certainly not getting into an argument with anyone over them or changing my mind on them .
> 
> Unfortunately, not everybody keeps corns. My Taiwanese beauty for example is kept in a 60"x24"x24" vivarium and would be out of a correctly sized 'off the shelf' RUB in a very short space of time whereas she cannot cannot get out of an 'off the shelf' viv of the same size.
> 
> ALL of my snakes get defensive if approached from above. Just because they do not bite does not mean they are not scared.


hulloh

its interesting that my great plains rat snake gets scared and defensive if NOT lifted out a RUB from above,, he becomes flighty and panicked if taken from a viv...

i think as always its down to individual animals NOT species..

I have a royal in a viv and a colubrid in a rub.. and they both prefer it that way

I have observed them now for both 18 months and a year.. and can safely say they eat and behave better this way

guess its about choice and individuality


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## Daredevil

ratboy said:


> These are just my opinions and I am certainly not getting into an argument with anyone over them or changing my mind on them .
> 
> Unfortunately, not everybody keeps corns. My Taiwanese beauty for example is kept in a 60"x24"x24" vivarium and would be out of a correctly sized 'off the shelf' RUB in a very short space of time whereas she cannot cannot get out of an 'off the shelf' viv of the same size.
> 
> ALL of my snakes get defensive if approached from above. Just because they do not bite does not mean they are not scared.


I wasn't getting into an argument, just replying to your queries about RUBs from my point of view, your points are just as valid as mine.


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## ratboy

essexchondro said:


> But you did presume! You presumed that being able to see the animals is the reason why people keep them.


That was not a presumption it was a question. "The point about vivariums with glass fronts and reptiles is that you can see the animals.... which is, after all, the reason people keep them isn't it ?"



> But not all vivs have sliding glass doors. Some have doors that swing open from one side (like a street door) other open downwards etc etc.


True. But the vast majority do.




> That's fair comment, but your original post suggested that RUB's were not suitable for reptiles at all; you talked about reptiles in general rather than mentioning specific species (e.g. "I hate RUB's with a passion when it comes to reptiles"). Of course, no one is trying to suggest that RUB's are suitable for every species, but they are suitable for some and do not deserve the _carte blanche_ dismissal that you've subjected them to.


True again. Had I realised my post was going to be so unusually thoroughly examined... I could have worded it better  In my house however, I am afraid they do have carte blanche dismissal.


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## Maureen Collinson

bradhollands999 said:


> 3.Mine has tried pushing out many times and i can assure you that a Corn is not strong enough to push up a secured RUB lid.


If a corn is determined enough, and manages to find the weakest spot, then yes it can at least get it's head out, and then maybe remain trapped there as some have done in the past, so yes they are strong enough.

If your snake is attempting to push out many times over, that says to me that your snake does not sound really content with your choice of home for it, and could end up with a badly damaged nose, or an RI infection from steaming up, or from pure stress, which could affect it's immune system, so perhaps some study on your part with your snake would be in order, or maybe try another home for it .

Mo.


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## tinkrebel

I personally don't like RUB's and feel its similar to keeping reptiles in a tupperware box (just my opinion), I can see that in certain circumstances they do have a place and purpose, they are very easy for keeping clean, isolating etc, but I personally don't like them. I have used them in the past, but have moved the snakes into a wooden viv as soon as possible.

I can understand people who keep their snakes as a hobby or for breeding rather than as pets, storing them in rack systems, then RUB's are a simple solution. What does concern me, is some people buy these because they are the cheaper option, you can pick up a large RUB for under £20, whereas a viv would be £100 at least. They aren't necessarily looking for the best option in the snakes interest but just the cheapest. This is where some people end up getting loads of different snakes, stacked up in RUBs with no concern to the actual snakes welfare and housing needs.

I certainly don't feel safe with any of mine in RUB's due to the fastening of the lids, although I do occasionally use one when feeding my boa (even at under a year old, he could push the lid up and get trapped).

Again this is a debate where no one is right and no one is wrong, we all have diffent opinions and methods we feel more comfortable with.


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## CBR1100XX

I keep a fair few corns and royals in rubs all snakes kept in 64 ltr rubs are around 2 years old or younger and they have no problems seeing me or me seeing them. They also do not have problems with getting nose rub or getting trapped or anything else mentioned I can pretty much guarantee that with the snakes I house in them the rub will never be a danger to them. I also never have feeding problems, handling problems etc etc and have never had one escape from a rub yet.

I do use vivs for all my adult snakes and could supply enough spare vivs to accommodate the rest if I wanted but I prefer to use the rubs for the younger ones as I prefer them to faunariums which is what I usually use for younger stuff before jumping to a viv. The rubs are never a permenant fixture for them but do offer what they need in relation to there size. 

I do have about 50 rubs not all are used for snakes but are used for cleaning out and transporting, storage etc etc. 

As they say they are really useful and will get my vote for younger or smaller snakes.


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## essexchondro

> That was not a presumption it was a question. "The point about vivariums with glass fronts and reptiles is that you can see the animals.... which is, after all, the reason people keep them isn't it ?"


You might have ended the statement with a question mark but it was hardly a genuine question. To me its more of a rhetorical question that you've posed simply to express your point of view in a matter-of-fact manner that "seeing" them is the reason why people keep them. We were never expected to come up with a different answer to the one you'd already supplied us with.



> True again. Had I realised my post was going to be so unusually thoroughly examined... I could have worded it better  In my house however, I am afraid they do have carte blanche dismissal.


But as you've said yourself, you keep species that aren't suited to RUB's, so its not surprising that you don't think much of them. I don't have a problem with that, what I do disagree with is where you've tried to imply that because they don't fit your needs (and the needs of the relatively small number of species that you keep) that they are of no use at all and are bad for all reptiles. They may get carte blanche dismissal in your house, but that says very little about their usefulness to the wider reptile community. 

My thorough examination of your comments was only intended to balance out your bias a little bit, nothing personal.

cheers

Stuart


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## river

when i first got my royals they were in rubs, and one inperticulur royal used to go mad and always strike, wave her tail and hiss if you went near she was very unhappy, so we desided to try her in a viv and she practacly changed in to the niceset handleble royal you could have, so a viv was defanatly right for her
all mine are now in vivs (and seem more contented) as i could not stop rubs from steaming up (but i know now that maybe there wernt enough holes in them)
if my collection grows i will use rubs (with more holes lol) but only if snake seems to be contented with that enviroment


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## Daredevil

Maureen Collinson said:


> If a corn is determined enough, and manages to find the weakest spot, then yes it can at least get it's head out, and then maybe remain trapped there as some have done in the past, so yes they are strong enough.
> 
> If your snake is attempting to push out many times over, that says to me that your snake does not sound really content with your choice of home for it, and could end up with a badly damaged nose, or an RI infection from steaming up, or from pure stress, which could affect it's immune system, so perhaps some study on your part with your snake would be in order, or maybe try another home for it .
> 
> Mo.


Maybe i worded that a bit wrongly again. When i am above it and the snake sees me above it it comes to investigate and i get the impression they don't know there is a surface in the way so she attempts to get through to my hand. She (and bear in mind she is a yearling) tries to push through and is not strong enough so i undo the lid and she comes out for a bit of handling and then i put her back and she sleeps. Her nose is fine and always has been and she has never had an RI nor has her RUB steamed up. I can assure you both of my snakes are kept in excellent conditions.: victory:


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## Daredevil

fazer600sy said:


> I keep a fair few corns and royals in rubs all snakes kept in 64 ltr rubs are around 2 years old or younger and they have no problems seeing me or me seeing them. They also do not have problems with getting nose rub or getting trapped or anything else mentioned I can pretty much guarantee that with the snakes I house in them the rub will never be a danger to them. I also never have feeding problems, handling problems etc etc and have never had one escape from a rub yet.


Thats basically what i wanted to say.:no1:: victory:


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## ratboy

essexchondro said:


> You might have ended the statement with a question mark but it was hardly a genuine question. To me its more of a rhetorical question that you've posed simply to express your point of view in a matter-of-fact manner that "seeing" them is the reason why people keep them. We were never expected to come up with a different answer to the one you'd already supplied us with.


:lol2::lol2: I really can't be bothered. There is no point in posting more as you know what I mean better than I do apparently


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## TSKA Rory Matier

My personal opinion of the RUB is that l am not particularly fond of them. Mammal ideology does not enter into it per se, and the original question also did not contain that perspective.

It did look at enrichment and stimulation, which is part and parcel of codes of practice for all species maintained in today’s keeping environment.

It further went on to discuss interaction and bonding, which in all honesty are really the wrong words – when ultimately it comes down only to one word – handling.

I should have said how much handling keepers have and enjoy with their reptiles.

Obviously a primate is going to need different needs and requirements to that of a reptile, it stands to reason, it just so happens that it was a primate keeper that asked the question, but perhaps l should have asked it stating that indeed l have had reptile keepers ask me the same questions, and l have had discussions about it in the past with reptile keepers who do not like RUBs.

I had a discussion with Nerys today about the RUB, and was able to come to even more answers but equally as many more questions.

First, NO, l do not keep reptiles, have never kept reptiles, and only now am l a reptile keeper by default so that really does not count. I am a mammal man, but only by past experience, and now only have a genuine passion to keep my dogs and cats.

To boot l was a commercial mammal keeper/breeder, so when l see what l personally class as a commercial system in use for any animal, l see a commercial or scale breeding system meant for an income.

Now l can understand the pro’s of using the RUB, it is cost effective, space efficient, light and as such much easier to move around, much easier to clean and disinfect, can be ‘enriched and environmentalised’, in many cases can be made up to the same as that of the VIV, easily accessed from the top, is available is numerous sizes. But also a RUB in many ways is very species specific. [as in - good for one, not ideal for another].

The negatives from my point are personal opinion only, but that it is a ‘clinical approach environment’ and as such not particularly aesthetic, non personable in so far as once they are closed within that environment, then the hands on could be lost due to the over practicality of the system, but also l think that this is a system that could in the wrong irresponsible hands lead to abuse on a species requirements., but also it does mean that with this potential abuse on board then species could be kept in smaller than required habitats just to increase collection. There have been other negatives mentioned here in the thread but from other writers and as l am NOT a reptile keeper l can only pass comments to what l see as a non reptile keeper and not through some mammal ideology, but just as an observer.

Some keepers can dress them up as said to recreate what they may have in a viv, and l have seen this as well as environments where the minimum enrichments are provided in comparison to going over board – a RUB can contain newspaper overriding a proper substrate, a bowl, a hide and hey presto its complete, where as many keepers here have said that they can provide up to three hides as such providing choice, branches for arboreal use, water bowls etc.

In the end, as l hear so many keepers tell me, the snake as an example cares not for glamour, they want privacy, feeding, watering and cleaning and above all to do not wish to feel threatened or under predation.

The RUB will continue to enjoy the usage it has from a willing keeping community and at this present time l am not aware of it being restricted or prohibited from use by any codes of practice.

Again none of my comments are personal nor to be seen as an attack, if l was to keep reptiles personally l would keep them in Vivs, but only because l would personally want to enjoy the fact that l was a reptile keeper and that my collection meant more to me than being tucked away in a RUB. To me it will always be seen as a plastic box, but apparently a really useful one at that.

But my thanks to all who have contributed to this thread content.

R


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## Flutterbye

gaz said:


> put "bunny-huggers" on the pest list and shoot them,then we would'nt have this foisted upon us at all
> regards gaz


 
:lol2:


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## essexchondro

> I really can't be bothered. There is no point in posting more as you know what I mean better than I do apparently


Well I can see what you wrote and the style it was written in. If you meant something different then you should have written something else. Like you say, you could have worded it better. Unfortunately, though, I can only comment on what you actually write (not what you might be thinking or _trying_ to convey). And what you've written is very one-sided; hence my desire to given a bit more of a balanced analysis. :2thumb:

cheers

Stuart


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## essexchondro

> My personal opinion of the RUB is that l am not particularly fond of them. Mammal ideology does not enter into it per se, and the original question also did not contain that perspective.




It did though, otherwise there would have been no need to mention mammals or their housing at all. The original post set up the problem of inadequate primate housing as a lead into a question about how reptile keepers can justify complaining about poor primate housing when they use RUB's. The implication was that RUB's are the reptile equivalent of poor primate housing. Its that unfounded implication that's annoying.





> It did look at enrichment and stimulation, which is part and parcel of codes of practice for all species maintained in today’s keeping environment.


But these were looked at in a mammalian context.




> It further went on to discuss interaction and bonding, which in all honesty are really the wrong words – when ultimately it comes down only to one word – handling.


No it doesn't. Plenty of reptiles are not ones you'd handle on a regular basis. My gtp's and etb's are display snakes...and lets not forget about venomous species that are not handled in the way that you understand handling. 






> I should have said how much handling keepers have and enjoy with their reptiles.


Me personally; very little as I don't keep species that appreciate being handled.






> Obviously a primate is going to need different needs and requirements to that of a reptile, it stands to reason, it just so happens that it was a primate keeper that asked the question, but perhaps l should have asked it stating that indeed l have had reptile keepers ask me the same questions, and l have had discussions about it in the past with reptile keepers who do not like RUBs.


Fair point. No one is trying to suggest that RUB's are great for all species of reptiles and that all reptiles keepers love them. But they are useful (no pun intended) for some species and for some keepers. They don't deserve to be dismissed out of hand.





> I had a discussion with Nerys today about the RUB, and was able to come to even more answers but equally as many more questions.





> First, NO, l do not keep reptiles, have never kept reptiles, and only now am l a reptile keeper by default so that really does not count. I am a mammal man, but only by past experience, and now only have a genuine passion to keep my dogs and cats.
> 
> To boot l was a commercial mammal keeper/breeder, so when l see what l personally class as a commercial system in use for any animal, l see a commercial or scale breeding system meant for an income.


But why does that automatically equate to a negative in your mind? Most animals (reptiles included) will only breed if they are healthy, not stressed, and in good general condition. With that in mind you could argue that a breeders animals are better cared for and healthier than most "pet" animals because "he" needs them to reproduce. Think of it this way; how many overweight dogs are their in the UK? And how many of those dogs are pets and how many are breeder dogs owned by professional dog breeders? The fat ones are all pets!




> Now l can understand the pro’s of using the RUB, it is cost effective, space efficient, light and as such much easier to move around, much easier to clean and disinfect, can be ‘enriched and environmentalised’, in many cases can be made up to the same as that of the VIV, easily accessed from the top, is available is numerous sizes. But also a RUB in many ways is very species specific. [as in - good for one, not ideal for another].


First of all that's a lot of pros. And secondly, as I said above, did anyone ever suggest they were good for all reptile species?? The only broad generalisations that seem to have been made have been made to suggest the negative, that they're no good full stop!




> The negatives from my point are personal opinion only, but that it is a ‘clinical approach environment’ and as such not particularly aesthetic, non personable in so far as once they are closed within that environment, then the hands on could be lost due to the over practicality of the system, but also l think that this is a system that could in the wrong irresponsible hands lead to abuse on a species requirements., but also it does mean that with this potential abuse on board then species could be kept in smaller than required habitats just to increase collection. There have been other negatives mentioned here in the thread but from other writers and as l am NOT a reptile keeper l can only pass comments to what l see as a non reptile keeper and not through some mammal ideology, but just as an observer.


Personal opinion based on what practical experience, though? Any system can be abused in the wrong hands; if I kept a retic in a 4 foot viv that would be just as bad as keeping an adult boa in a 50L RUB. There is no such thing as "just an observer"; you're never free of influences and the only way to judge RUB's for use with reptiles is to have actually used them with reptile species that they're suited to (even just keeping reptiles isn't enough as we can see from ratboys comments).




> Some keepers can dress them up as said to recreate what they may have in a viv, and l have seen this as well as environments where the minimum enrichments are provided in comparison to going over board – a RUB can contain newspaper overriding a proper substrate, a bowl, a hide and hey presto its complete, where as many keepers here have said that they can provide up to three hides as such providing choice, branches for arboreal use, water bowls etc.





> In the end, as l hear so many keepers tell me, the snake as an example cares not for glamour, they want privacy, feeding, watering and cleaning and above all to do not wish to feel threatened or under predation.
> 
> The RUB will continue to enjoy the usage it has from a willing keeping community and at this present time l am not aware of it being restricted or prohibited from use by any codes of practice.


There is no more evidence that would justify getting RUB's banned than there is for getting vivs banned. A viv is not inherently correct and a RUB inherently incorrect. What's important is that animals are provided with adequate housing. And adequate housing comes in all different shapes, sizes and materials dependent upon the species in question.




> Again none of my comments are personal nor to be seen as an attack, if l was to keep reptiles personally l would keep them in Vivs, but only because l would personally want to enjoy the fact that l was a reptile keeper and that my collection meant more to me than being tucked away in a RUB. To me it will always be seen as a plastic box, but apparently a really useful one at that.


When the person asking the questions has no experience with reptiles it can be taken personally and seen as an attck, though. In light of your lack of experience and empirical understanding what gives you the right to even pose the questions and seek an audience in the first place? I wouldn't expect to be taken seriously when commenting about primate issues on a primate forum.

One of my old uni lecturers used to use the term "arm-chair theorist" when he wanted to dismiss the work and ideas of someone who'd never actually immersed themselves in what they were commenting on....

cheers

Stuart


__________________


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## TSKA Rory Matier

Thankyou for your comments Stuart.

Just a few quick ones, if this question of negativity had been asked by a non reptile keeper but with a view to becoming a reptile keeper would you have answered the same way?

If you had considered it not serious, why answer - or is that just diplomatic courtesy to the foolish?

I have as many rights to ask a question of a reptile keeper as indeed do reptile keepers have to ask questions of primate keepers or any mammal keepers for that matter. 

No, not attack, generalised questions, that anyone, 'keepers, bunny huggers, observers are allowed to ask.

In order for the understanding to be achieved by the experienced, non experienced, novice and so on then all sorts of questions should be asked.

You believe in one issue, l believe in another, that does not make me a fool or simpleton as you would have me read in your last post, it just makes me curious as to what makes reptile keepers tick..........., these questions have been asked by experienced reptile keepers long before me asking as a non reptile keeper.

R

ps: Whilst l may not have years, years and even more years experience as a reptile keeper as many of you do. I have lived with Nerys's reptile collection of Vivs and boxes similiar to those that Toyah keeps her reptiles in for the last 10 months. [as in decked out with water bowls, hides, branches, substrate etc]

I have these plastic boxes with snakes within, 18" from my head every night that l lay my head down to sleep. My opinion of reptile keeping is more open than it was prior to meeting Nerys. My house is now full of reptiles, where as it was not before. The loungeroom, the bedroom, the office.

I watch her reptiles on a daily basis albeit handle very few, but l probably see just as much 'action' for want of a better word as most experienced keepers see.

No l am not an experienced keeper, but l do assure you that l am entitled to formulate an opinion under my own bearing.


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## htf666

I find it amusing that the very mention of the word 'plastic' seems to convey cheapness and nastiness but rotting,swelling chipboard equates to 'vivarium'. For certain smaller species and hatchlings you could not improve on the smaller rub. The larger ones need the bigger gap in the lid taking into account. Harry


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## ratboy

essexchondro said:


> Well I can see what you wrote and the style it was written in. If you meant something different then you should have written something else. Like you say, you could have worded it better. Unfortunately, though, I can only comment on what you actually write (not what you might be thinking or _trying_ to convey). And what you've written is very one-sided; hence my desire to given a bit more of a balanced analysis. :2thumb:
> 
> cheers
> 
> Stuart


Thanks for that Stuart, but the fact is you did not comment on what I actually wrote, you commented on your incorrect interpretation of what I wrote... which is not really my problem.

I asked a question and it was meant as a question and what's more that question has been answered by numerous posts including yours.

Yes what I wrote was very one sided, my opinion of RUB's is very one sided and for that I make no apologies as I believe them to be dangerous and I do not like them. A view that appears to be held by numerous posters on this thread. I can and do only speak from the point of view of the animals I keep, but I am not naive enough to believe that mine are the only species that can either escape from or injure themselves trying to escape from RUBs. There are numerous plastic containers that have properly fitting lids and therefore none of the danger or security problems I listed in my original post.

Do I have plastic tubs for temporary housing while cleaning out, transporting or feeding snakes ? Yes, of course I do. But they are not RUBs and they have lids that work.

Please do not reply to this post, as it will be my last on this thread.


----------



## Maureen Collinson

Rory and Steve,

I am amazed at how cool on the surface you guys are remaining. :notworthy:

Stuart whilst you may have some very valid points, they get rather lost as I reach the parts where you are coming across to Rory and Steve in a very derogative way.  

Whilst still addressing you Stuart, I would like to pick up on this quote of yours.

Your quote.

But why does that automatically equate to a negative in your mind? Most animals (reptiles included) will only breed if they are healthy, not stressed, and in good general condition. With that in mind you could argue that a breeders animals are better cared for and healthier than most "pet" animals because "he" needs them to reproduce. Think of it this way; how many overweight dogs are their in the UK? And how many of those dogs are pets and how many are breeder dogs owned by professional dog breeders? The fat ones are all pets!

End of your quote.

Where Stuart did you ever get the idea that reptiles won't breed whilst under stress?
I'm sure I don't need to go into full details here of how much stress wild caught reptiles go through from the time of being trapped and taken into captivity until they end up at wholesalers for examples in lots of different Countries. Well....................that being the case how do you explain then the fact that when some of the bags containing said reptiles that have been bagged together are found interlocked with each other, partaking in mating, would you believe? 
My take on things is that reptiles have a natural instinct to reproduce before their demise, and so therefore when found under the circumstances I have described, I would be led to believe that they feel their end could be near, and the males are trying their hardest to quickly ensure their blood line continues, so the complete appositive of what you have stated in your post above. 

I have just been looking at Pro-racks, and they have tubs/containers that they say are suitable for snakes up to around 12ft in length. Now for me, 1ft high seems very unfair to the snake, and prohibits it's natural behavior/movements. Would be interesting to hear your views on them. Vision racks seem about the same too, when it comes to height. For the record, I personally think the height is the pits for big boids.

One last thing for now Stuart. I have just looked at the list of fantastic species that you keep and note that their requirements can be met by using the RUBS, and in some cases better provided for, than if you placed them into a wooden viv, on condition of course that it's not proved that they require UVB, but can you speak from experience with other species of snakes? Of the species you have chosen to keep, some at least not only prefer to be left alone, but also do not move around much, even if given a room sized environment, where as species like the ones Steve keeps are at times extremely active, and so being placed in a RUB could be seen as a barbaric practice for them. I have seen many unhappy snakes in these types of boxes, in my own snakes here, (which were moved asap) and in many collections out there. The trouble is that with many that need to be placed into a different type of environment, the owners have not got the space to do so as they opted outright for the racking system, and with no space left for other vivs, therefore those unhappy animals either have to put up with being stressed and unhappy, or sold/given away. Lots out there suffer, and I have seen many ill snakes as a result of them not being a suitable candidate for the plastic boxes in general, not just the RUBS. 

The members answering here on this thread all seem to be giving their snakes RUBS with a good height, but there are more keepers out there that are not replying here, keeping their snakes in RUBS with a much lower height, which means they can cram more snakes into a smaller area, and this often leads to having more snakes than they can cope with, or afford to keep, and is why collections are now being reduced later on.

I agree 100% with this quote from Rory. 

l think that this is a system that could in the wrong irresponsible hands lead to abuse on a species requirements., but also it does mean that with this potential abuse on board then species could be kept in smaller than required habitats just to increase collection. End of Rory's quote.

Mo.

PS. I use plastic boxes as already stated for certain reasons, but no longer own any RUBS to my knowledge, and would not ever recommend that type of box either.
There are two many people out there that are told to go and get a RUB to house their snakes, but very few are warned about the *'deadly' *danger that awaits their snake if it decides to investigate fully, and thus finds that dangerous gap between the lid and the box. This being the case, I stand with Steve, and will say that I am truly sorry that forums such as here have helped in the promoting of these death traps. as two many innocent snakes have been killed as a direct result of being placed in these boxes without first attending to the gap problem. 

Edit. Having just visited the snake forum, I looked at the sticky's and noted that there is no mention of RUBS there.  Perhaps someone would like therefore to write something that includes diagrams and words on exactly how to make the boxes safe for the housing of reptiles, and it could then join the other sticky's. It would be an excellent way forward to hopefully cut down on the tragic events that continue to occur out there,


----------



## Ssthisto

Maureen Collinson said:


> There are two many people out there that are told to go and get a RUB to house their snakes, but very few are warned about the *'deadly' *danger that awaits their snake if it decides to investigate fully, and thus finds that dangerous gap between the lid and the box. This being the case, I stand with Steve, and will say that I am truly sorry that forums such as here have helped in the promoting of these death traps. as two many innocent snakes have been killed as a direct result of being placed in these boxes without first attending to the gap problem.


Out of curiosity... how many people have lost snakes because they put hatchling corns and other small colubrids into full-sized vivaria too soon - and had the snake escape never to be found? 

I know of at least one case where a snake 'hung' itself between the glass panes of a vivarium door, too.

Doesn't make vivariums unsuitable - just means you have to match the housing to the snake. 

I have (at quick count - I may be miscounting a couple) twenty snakes in Really Usefuls at this point. I have always carefully chosen the SIZE of the Really Useful to match the snake that's going in it, and if a snake tells me with its behaviour that it is NOT happy in one (like Sydney did - she was consistently exploring the gaps at the top of the lid for the day or so she was in one as a temporary holding measure while I reshuffled vivariums around) then that animal will not be housed in one. On the other hand her mate Melbourne seems quite happy in a 64-litre Really Useful. 

The only time I've had an escape from a RUB - or even a proper attempted escape - is with Fusion the radiated ratsnake; for management reasons he WILL be going into a front-opening vivarium once the reshuffle is complete (we are in the process of converting our freestanding garage into a reptile room; he may actually get a vivarium before that is complete simply because it will make him easier to manage). And the escapes (both of them) occured when I opened the RUB - he doesn't open it himself.

I am afraid I must settle on Stuart's side with regards to snakes and handling. Handling is NOT the reason I keep mine at all, and I don't handle mine very often in general. I have a fair few snakes that will 'present' themselves for handling, coming out of their housing (whatever it may be) onto my hands and arms - but I do not enforce "you will let me hold you" unless it is a required thing instead of a recreational thing. I think it's far worse to have a snake as a pet and expect it to be a lapdog, to be handled at will, than to have a snake as a pet and leave it to its own devices except when feeding, cleaning and caring as necessary.


----------



## charlesthompson

Snakes will breed under stress but the heightened levels of cortico-steriod within the body released by the adrenal gland can badly affect fecundancy increasing the risk of dyscocia.Stress is proven to have a negative impact on the gonad of both species and this is further compounded when kept in imbalanced or badly managed social groups (more commonly seen in lizards). The longer the animal is in a prolonged state of stress the greater the decrease in gonadal activity. 

That said i know many people who have consistently produced animals from RUB's. 

I am no vet, scientist, scholar - but i do read.

I am not looking to get my head bitten off just thought the post may be useful.


----------



## essexchondro

> Thankyou for your comments Stuart.
> 
> Just a few quick ones, if this question of negativity had been asked by a non reptile keeper but with a view to becoming a reptile keeper would you have answered the same way?



 
The point I was making (trying to make) is that you seem to keep pressing your issue despite hearing reasoned, experience based evidence that would seem to discredit your initial suppositions and rationale. To my mind, if you have little to no first-hand experience with reptiles you should be doing no more than soaking up the knowledge of others, not trying to define and construct the very peramiters of the debate itself; you do not have the necessary knowledge and experience to take on that role and to attempt to do so can be perceived as arrogant. It's this perceived arrogance that can be met with hostility from reptile keepers. I would fully expect to have my argument shot down in flames and have my reasoning pulled to pieces if I attempted to apply my reptile knowledge to primates on a primate forum. 

Perhaps if you had come across as genuinely wanting to learn and understand then my comments would have been different, but as it is you seem more concerned with wanting to push a particular agenda/bias that you have held from the outset i.e. that RUB's are inherently bad and are the reptile equivalent of poor primate housing. To me this thread has been little more that a vehicle for "having a dig" at those using RUB's rather than a genuine quest to _understand_ from the reptile keepers' perspective.



> If you had considered it not serious, why answer - or is that just diplomatic courtesy to the foolish?



Because I wanted to point out what I see as the flaws in your reasoning.



> I have as many rights to ask a question of a reptile keeper as indeed do reptile keepers have to ask questions of primate keepers or any mammal keepers for that matter.


 
The point that I was trying to make was that you do not know enough about reptiles to justify and validate your contributions to the debate...yet not only do you attempt to do so, but you also attempt to constitute and define the very peramiters of that debate. You need to do this, it seems to me, because if you don't try and make the issues fit the knowledge base that you do have (i.e mammals and primates) then you're like a "fish out of water" and would struggle to make any comments at all. When I said you don't have the "right", I should of said something more along the lines of "you don't have the required knowledge and experience" to pass the kind of judgements that you do. I apologise for my poor choice of wording and the misunderstanding that this has caused.



> No, not attack, generalised questions, that anyone, 'keepers, bunny huggers, observers are allowed to ask.
> 
> In order for the understanding to be achieved by the experienced, non experienced, novice and so on then all sorts of questions should be asked.


 
But you (the total novice when it comes to reptiles) should be "all ears", soaking up the knowledge of other experienced reptile keepers, not sticking by your initial prejudices that aren't experience based and can be discredited (at least to some degree) by the actual evidence.



> You believe in one issue, l believe in another, that does not make me a fool or simpleton as you would have me read in your last post, it just makes me curious as to what makes reptile keepers tick..........., these questions have been asked by experienced reptile keepers long before me asking as a non reptile keeper.


 
I believe in what I believe because evidence and experience has led me to those conclusions. Your opinion_ is_ different, but what exactly is your opinion based on? Sure, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but surely some opinions are of more value that others because they are based upon something real and tangible rather than having been plucked out of the air or extrapolated from an inappropriate and largely irrelevant theoretical knowledge base?

If you're genuinely curious about "what makes reptile keepers tick" then ask us genuine* open** ended questions* about that, don't ask leading questions loaded with presuppositions and a pre-existing agenda/bias...and don't try to define, manipulate, and categorise the answers we can give so that they fit nicely with your own preconceptions and (mammal based) experiences and knowledge. 

I apologise if I've come across like I believe you're a fool or simpleton; you are clearly quite thoughtful and intelligent. The point I've tried to make isn't that you're a fool, its that you're trying to contribute to (and even structure!) a debate around a subject that you know very little about and have no real experience in...and furthermore, that your mammalian and primate knowledge and experience is of questionable value as a substitute.

I'd just like to add that all of my comments were intended to scrutinise your ideas and the logic behind them, they were not meant to be personal in any way, although I can see how they may have come across that way. For that I apologise.


cheers

Stuart


----------



## essexchondro

> Rory and Steve,
> 
> I am amazed at how cool on the surface you guys are remaining.
> 
> Stuart whilst you may have some very valid points, they get rather lost as I reach the parts where you are coming across to Rory and Steve in a very derogative way.
> 
> Whilst still addressing you Stuart, I would like to pick up on this quote of yours.
> 
> Your quote.
> 
> But why does that automatically equate to a negative in your mind? Most animals (reptiles included) will only breed if they are healthy, not stressed, and in good general condition. With that in mind you could argue that a breeders animals are better cared for and healthier than most "pet" animals because "he" needs them to reproduce. Think of it this way; how many overweight dogs are their in the UK? And how many of those dogs are pets and how many are breeder dogs owned by professional dog breeders? The fat ones are all pets!
> 
> End of your quote.
> 
> Where Stuart did you ever get the idea that reptiles won't breed whilst under stress?
> I'm sure I don't need to go into full details here of how much stress wild caught reptiles go through from the time of being trapped and taken into captivity until they end up at wholesalers for examples in lots of different Countries. Well....................that being the case how do you explain then the fact that when some of the bags containing said reptiles that have been bagged together are found interlocked with each other, partaking in mating, would you believe?
> My take on things is that reptiles have a natural instinct to reproduce before their demise, and so therefore when found under the circumstances I have described, I would be led to believe that they feel their end could be near, and the males are trying their hardest to quickly ensure their blood line continues, so the complete appositive of what you have stated in your post above


.
Mo, I didn't say reptiles wont breed whilst under stress. I said they will only breed if they are* healthy, not stressed, and in good general condition*. I suppose its possible that a stressed but otherwise healthy reptile would go through the act of mating, but would a stressed out reptile in poor health and poor condition breed and successfully reproduce (thats what matters to the breeder, after all)? The examples you give of reptiles found mating in their transportation bags sound more like instances of otherwise healthy animals mating during a (short term) stressful period, rather than stressed and unhealthy animals in poor condition mating. It would be interesting to find out about the reproductive success of those inter-transport matings.





> I have just been looking at Pro-racks, and they have tubs/containers that they say are suitable for snakes up to around 12ft in length. Now for me, 1ft high seems very unfair to the snake, and prohibits it's natural behavior/movements. Would be interesting to hear your views on them. Vision racks seem about the same too, when it comes to height. For the record, I personally think the height is the pits for big boids.


When you actually look at the difference in size between rack tubs and vivariums its pretty clear that these differences are relatively tiny in comparison to the freedom which a reptile would have in the wild. So, a buyer dismisses a tub that is 12 inches high in favour of a vivarium that is 24 inches high...and because they've given their reptile an extra 12 inches to play with they think they have the absolute moral high-ground over keepers who use the 12in tub. But in all honesty, what difference do those 12 inches make from a moral/ethical point of view when you consider that in the wild that reptile could potentially climb to the top of the tallest tree and utilise 50 or 60 foot + worth of height? It's also worth mentioning that vivariums are made in pretty arbitrary sizes (much like tubs not specifically designed for reptiles) so the idea that the vivariums dimensions are bespoked to its occupants requirements is a pretty dubious one...and even when you custom build your own vivs to certain dimensions you aren't bespoking them to the reptiles natural habitat; its more likely the case that you need the viv to fit into a specific space that you have or to provide you with optimum viewing pleasure. At the end of the day it seems to me that they only reason behind the differences in dimensions between tubs and vivs is that the latter prioritise viewing pleasure whereas the former prioritise functionability...in both cases its what works for the keeper that is prioritised, not whats best for the animal...its just that viewing pleasure usually requires slightly bigger dimensions so this is latched on to by people that want to suggest the animal _needs_ more space.




> One last thing for now Stuart. I have just looked at the list of fantastic species that you keep and note that their requirements can be met by using the RUBS, and in some cases better provided for, than if you placed them into a wooden viv, on condition of course that it's not proved that they require UVB, but can you speak from experience with other species of snakes?


I never claimed i could! All I've said is that its wrong to totally dismiss RUB's as innappropriate for all reptiles species as some people have implied they are. RUB's are not suitable for every species and to be frank, considering that they aren't designed for reptiles at all, its amazing how many species_ can_ be adequately housed in them!



> Of the species you have chosen to keep, some at least not only prefer to be left alone, but also do not move around much, even if given a room sized environment, where as species like the ones Steve keeps are at times extremely active, and so being placed in a RUB could be seen as a barbaric practice for them. I have seen many unhappy snakes in these types of boxes, in my own snakes here, (which were moved asap) and in many collections out there. The trouble is that with many that need to be placed into a different type of environment, the owners have not got the space to do so as they opted outright for the racking system, and with no space left for other vivs, therefore those unhappy animals either have to put up with being stressed and unhappy, or sold/given away. Lots out there suffer, and I have seen many ill snakes as a result of them not being a suitable candidate for the plastic boxes in general, not just the RUBS.


I agree with you. Animals need to be provided with appropriate housing. For some species an RUB fits the bill, for others it does not. All I've argued for is that we have an appreciation of that fact rather than an out-right dismissal of them as completely inappropriate for all species.




> The members answering here on this thread all seem to be giving their snakes RUBS with a good height, but there are more keepers out there that are not replying here, keeping their snakes in RUBS with a much lower height, which means they can cram more snakes into a smaller area, and this often leads to having more snakes than they can cope with, or afford to keep, and is why collections are now being reduced later on.





> I agree 100% with this quote from Rory.
> 
> l think that this is a system that could in the wrong irresponsible hands lead to abuse on a species requirements., but also it does mean that with this potential abuse on board then species could be kept in smaller than required habitats just to increase collection. End of Rory's quote


 
Again, I agree that RUB's could lead to abuse by irrisponsible keepers...but so could vivs or any other brand of plastic tub or type of enclosure. Inappropriate housing means different things with different species. I would never suggest using a RUB for a species that isn't suited to a RUB...all I'm suggesting is that RUB's are suitable for some species and do not deserve to be dismissed out of hand for all species.

cheers

Stuart


----------



## HABU

i've never used them. i've never liked them. to each his own.


----------



## Maureen Collinson

essexchondro said:


> .
> Mo, I didn't say reptiles wont breed whilst under stress. I said they will only breed if they are* healthy, not stressed, and in good general condition*. I suppose its possible that a stressed but otherwise healthy reptile would go through the act of mating, but would a stressed out reptile in poor health and poor condition breed and successfully reproduce (thats what matters to the breeder, after all)? The examples you give of reptiles found mating in their transportation bags sound more like instances of otherwise healthy animals mating during a (short term) stressful period, rather than stressed and unhealthy animals in poor condition mating. It would be interesting to find out about the reproductive success of those inter-transport matings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you actually look at the difference in size between rack tubs and vivariums its pretty clear that these differences are relatively tiny in comparison to the freedom which a reptile would have in the wild. So, a buyer dismisses a tub that is 12 inches high in favour of a vivarium that is 24 inches high...and because they've given their reptile an extra 12 inches to play with they think they have the absolute moral high-ground over keepers who use the 12in tub. But in all honesty, what difference do those 12 inches make from a moral/ethical point of view when you consider that in the wild that reptile could potentially climb to the top of the tallest tree and utilise 50 or 60 foot + worth of height? It's also worth mentioning that vivariums are made in pretty arbitrary sizes (much like tubs not specifically designed for reptiles) so the idea that the vivariums dimensions are bespoked to its occupants requirements is a pretty dubious one...and even when you custom build your own vivs to certain dimensions you aren't bespoking them to the reptiles natural habitat; its more likely the case that you need the viv to fit into a specific space that you have or to provide you with optimum viewing pleasure. At the end of the day it seems to me that they only reason behind the differences in dimensions between tubs and vivs is that the latter prioritise viewing pleasure whereas the former prioritise functionability...in both cases its what works for the keeper that is prioritised, not whats best for the animal...its just that viewing pleasure usually requires slightly bigger dimensions so this is latched on to by people that want to suggest the animal _needs_ more space.
> 
> 
> 
> I never claimed i could! All I've said is that its wrong to totally dismiss RUB's as innappropriate for all reptiles species as some people have implied they are. RUB's are not suitable for every species and to be frank, considering that they aren't designed for reptiles at all, its amazing how many species_ can_ be adequately housed in them!
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you. Animals need to be provided with appropriate housing. For some species an RUB fits the bill, for others it does not. All I've argued for is that we have an appreciation of that fact rather than an out-right dismissal of them as completely inappropriate for all species.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I agree that RUB's could lead to abuse by irrisponsible keepers...but so could vivs or any other brand of plastic tub or type of enclosure. Inappropriate housing means different things with different species. I would never suggest using a RUB for a species that isn't suited to a RUB...all I'm suggesting is that RUB's are suitable for some species and do not deserve to be dismissed out of hand for all species.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Stuart


Thank Stuart for an excellent response to my post. :2thumb:

It is my belief that you have put forwarded some excellent reasons for not dismissing the RUB altogether, but I would still like to see a sticky produced by someone that has these boxes in use, and has fixed the gap well enough for it to no longer hold the danger of entrapment between the lid and the box. A photo of the safe finished product would be good too, so that others have an easy to follow guide line. I don't have any here myself now, so sadly can't supply the required photos.

Mo.


----------



## essexchondro

> Thank Stuart for an excellent response to my post. :2thumb:
> 
> It is my belief that you have put forwarded some excellent reasons for not dismissing the RUB altogether, but I would still like to see a sticky produced by someone that has these boxes in use, and has fixed the gap well enough for it to no longer hold the danger of entrapment between the lid and the box. A photo of the safe finished product would be good too, so that others have an easy to follow guide line. I don't have any here myself now, so sadly can't supply the required photos.
> 
> Mo.


You're very welcome Mo!

I did touch upon the problem with the lids in a earlier post. I think the simplest way of solving this problem it to not use the lids at all. It seems to me that the whole trend towards using tubs for housing is closely linked to the increasing popularity of professionally made racking systems...but the thing that people often over-look about such racking systems is that they are designed to incorporate lidless tubs whereby the shelf directly above the tub acts as the tubs lid. By using RUB's in a lidless rack set-up you not only completely bypass the problems associated with the RUB lids, but you also create a set-up which can;

1 Give you access to the tub in small increments (great for reducing heat loss and minimising stress to the occupant - very similar to what you'd get with a sliding glass viv).

2 Reduce the "attack from above" effect by entering the tub at more of a sideways angle as opposed to directly from above as you'd need to if you had to first un-clip the lid from both ends (I imagine the vibrations associated with un-clipping the lids could also cause the occupant some stress as well).

cheers

Stuart


----------



## gaz

good thing i didnt mention the acclimatisation of wc tree boas in black plastic dustbins then innit............horses for courses an all that
regards gaz


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

Hi Stuart, 

Again l thank you for your comments and opinion.

With your last response, l suppose it is just as well that we are both arrogant really otherwise offense could be too easily taken.

The thread may not have been ideally created in your eyes, but there are times, when some of my posed questions to this forum are not always seen in the best eyes and not always received that well.

I have my reasons, and the information gleaned here has helped me enormously.

So thankyou all.

R


----------



## Andy

I would never consider using them for anything other than juvenile snakes but never have used them in the past. I wouldn't use racks either but each to their own.


----------



## essexchondro

> good thing i didnt mention the acclimatisation of wc tree boas in black plastic dustbins then innit............horses for courses an all that
> regards gaz


 

That's a valid point, gaz. In my opinion there are very few types of enclosure (either specifically designed for reptiles or not) that could be said to be absolutely and inherently inappropriate (or appropriate!) for any and all reptile species. For example, there's a bit in Greg Maxwell's book on gtp's where Greg suggests that he could keep a chondro alive and healthy in a plastic bucket if he had to. The point, of course, isn't that Greg recommends keeping a gtp in a bucket, its that as long as you're able to adequately provide for the animals requirements then the way in which you provide those requirements isn't really all that important (though, of course, some ways are more efficient for the keeper than others). Expensive looking and stylish vivariums may "look the part" from the keepers perspective but there doesn't seem to be too much evidence to suggest that "looking the part" automatically equates to the occupants requirements being better met by vivs than other types of enclosure.

Sure, give a reptile a 24 inch high viv rather than a 10-12 inch high tub and it will probably use those extra few inches, but give it a 36/48/60... inch high viv and it could very well use that extra space too! At the end of the day you've got to draw the line somewhere if you want to keep animals in captivity...and its an entirely arbitrary line regardless of where you decide to draw it! Ultimately, the difference between tubs and vivs is a difference in_ degree_, not a difference in_ kind_, and as a result most moral/ethical arguments that favour vivs _absolutely_ are always going to be dubious and subject to heavy criticism.

cheers 

Stuart


----------



## essexchondro

> I would never consider using them for anything other than juvenile snakes but never have used them in the past. I wouldn't use racks either but each to their own.


Just a quick question, Andy. If RUB's are OK for juvenile snakes why aren't they OK for adult specimens (assuming we upgrade the size of RUB accordingly and assuming we're not talking about species that grow obviously too big for even the largest RUB's e.g. boas, burms etc etc)? 

cheers

Stuart


----------



## Reptilover

Personally i wouldnt see the difference in keeping a reptile or any other small animal in a RUB than it would to keep in in a Vivarium or cage, yes if your refering to size then i would say to that "Well to be honest, most animals, especially reptiles dont go very far in there lifes at all" therefor it carnt be too small for them. Then we go onto the primate issue, i think that primates should be free in the wild UNLESS owner/keeper can provide a adequate enclosure, of the correct size and everything else. This is no different with a reptile, if someone wants to keep a reptile in a RUB, then they should be allowed without been critisized, as long as the reptile has there needs covered and sometimes extra kind owners, especially with what i see, bearded dragon owners usually even get there pets luxury's, things that they may never see in the wild but what they abusululy love. 

:2thumb:


----------



## essexchondro

> Hi Stuart,
> 
> Again l thank you for your comments and opinion.
> 
> With your last response, l suppose it is just as well that we are both arrogant really otherwise offense could be too easily taken.


I'm certainly _confident_ in what I say and the opinions that I hold since they're based on years of experience and the knowledge gained as a result of those experiences. I'm happy to apologise when I get things wrong or cause unintended offence; arrogant people tend not to do that. 



> The thread may not have been ideally created in your eyes, but there are times, when some of my posed questions to this forum are not always seen in the best eyes and not always received that well.


I actually think that the topic of debate was a really good one. For me, the problem was the way in which you framed the debate and the effect that that had on the answers received. Had there been no _a priori_ agenda then the thread would have been much more insightful and given you a much better picture of what really makes us "tick".



> I have my reasons, and the information gleaned here has helped me enormously.
> 
> So thankyou all.
> 
> R


I'm very glad to here that. I'm sure if nothing else, the one thing that we can both agree on is that this has been a very stimulating debate! :2thumb:

Take care

Stuart


----------



## Andy

essexchondro said:


> Just a quick question, Andy. If RUB's are OK for juvenile snakes why aren't they OK for adult specimens (assuming we upgrade the size of RUB accordingly and assuming we're not talking about species that grow obviously too big for even the largest RUB's e.g. boas, burms etc etc)?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Stuart


I have never used tubs/RUBS/racks and probably never will. 

I dont see a problem with people keeping adult snakes in RUBs if thats what they want to do but i would never do it personally.

I only keep a small number of snakes so space or money isn't a problem to me and I like to be able to set up a nice natural looking vivarium so I can have it in a room as a nice thing to look at. I dont want to hide away the snakes I have paid hundreds of pounds on i want to display them. I would never buy so many snakes I had to rack them as thats not what the hobby is about for me.

I would consider a RUB for a juvenile snake because when they are quite small you hardly ever see them anyway. But like I say I have never kept snakes permanently in tubs etc.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

I would appologise if l thought there was need to do so. There is not.

You have your opinions - l have mine as do others have their own. No appology needed. As said, l took no umbridge to what you were saying. There was a moment - when in fact you did look as if you were addressing me in a somewhat backward notion, and it could appear to some that you try to intimidate with your writing style. I have remained polite throughout all of this debate, so whom do l need to appologise to?

However if l felt the need to do so, l would do so off my own back and not with any gentle persuasion.

And that is not arrogance, it is just a simple fact, interpret how you will.

Indeed, as a raised topic it was interesting and as said it met with my purpose and l gleaned the information l was after.

I will not write anymore on this subject, for the pro's and the cons of the item in question have been raised, addressed and answered.

Again and finally, l thank those for their contributions, comments and opinions.

R


----------



## HABU

Andy said:


> I have never used tubs/RUBS/racks and probably never will.
> 
> I dont see a problem with people keeping adult snakes in RUBs if thats what they want to do but i would never do it personally.
> 
> I only keep a small number of snakes so space or money isn't a problem to me and I like to be able to set up a nice natural looking vivarium so I can have it in a room as a nice thing to look at. I dont want to hide away the snakes I have paid hundreds of pounds on i want to display them. I would never buy so many snakes I had to rack them as thats not what the hobby is about for me.
> 
> I would consider a RUB for a juvenile snake because when they are quite small you hardly ever see them anyway. But like I say I have never kept snakes permanently in tubs etc.


 
my sentiments exactly!.... i'm not against the use of them per se but to me it's akin to having a vintage ferrari in storage somewhere.....or like having a sterile fishtank setup with a clay flower pot in it.... asthetics are everything in my case. we used two big racks at the store way back but that was assembly line breeding. we had to do it out of necessity. a display with a hide or foilage is how i roll. : victory:

edit: i also believe that whatever you keep your snakes in, they have to be able to fully streach out.... i believe that staying curled up can lead to respirtory problems from time to time. i may be wrong but i feel that way.


----------



## -matty-b-

you can still make tub/rub look _natural_ in the same way as vivs and you can put whatever plants etc in the tank but at the end of the day the snake/lizard/etc is still in captivity so most of the time its gonna be far from ideal anyway: victory:


----------



## Dan

Cracking topic! Really enjoyed reading that :no1:




essexchondro said:


> I'm happy to apologise when I get things wrong or cause unintended offence; arrogant people tend not to do that.


Does that mean i'm not arrogant then? I knew i liked you for a reason :notworthy:



TSKA Rory Matier said:


> it could appear to some that you try to intimidate with your writing style.


I don't honestly know if he was trying to intimidate you, more that (IMO) he was getting frustrated at your unwavering view point and failure to realise your view point.
Although in no way a negative aspect, your view is based on what you know (furry things) and stems from there. The ONLY way you can get around that is to kick Nerys out (sorry love) for a year and maintain all the reptiles yourself. Getting used to what they "like" and how they act on a more personal level.

Opinion is, after all, based on experience. Whether that your own or someone elses (society, books, parents etc) makes no difference. 

Me, i don't like anything that restricts MY viewing pleasure. The sizing and materials used are irrelevant, they can be adapted to fit. If someone is going to abuse the animal in their care they will do no matter what the enclosure.


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## essexchondro

> I don't honestly know if he was trying to intimidate you, more that (IMO) he was getting frustrated at your unwavering view point and failure to realise your view point.


Dan, its not so much the unwaivering view-point that frustrates me (mine isn't waivering either so I'd be a bit of a hypocrite if it was), its this suggestion that everyones opinion is of equal worth regardless of whether or not they actually have any knowledge and experience in the thing they've got an opinion on. I feel qualified to comment on the usefulness of RUB's for housing reptiles because I both keep reptiles and use RUB's to house them (amongst other types of enclosure). I just can't get my head around how someone who's done neither of those two things has anything of real value to contribute, especially when their underlying theory isn't directly relevant to reptiles either and has the effect of distorting the real issues of the debate.

cheers

Stuart


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## blackdragon

draged up an old thread because i was bored :lol2:

some good point both for and against. Im all for using rubs hears why

1, looking at my vivs i cant see any of my snakes right now they are all in hides and its like that most of the time, i get to see and enjoy my snakes when i get them out to hold or feed.

2, A rub is just a plastic box a viv is just a wood box i see no difference apart from i can take a rub up to the bathroom and soak it in bleach to clean i cant with a wood viv

3, snakes dont get bored any more than they dont feel love for there owner its a human emotion as long as the snake has hides and water and food it is not interested in anything else

4, vivs are offten decorated so they look nice to us rubs are set up so that they have what the snake needs you can put lots more stuff in the rub for the snake to hide in and explore and it dont matter if its not pretty to look at

5, people talk about vivs are better because they are natural but whats natural about news paper and cardbord boxes and toilet rolls offten uses and recomended in vivs but nobody says anything about that bit hypocritical.

6, people say viv are better and people only use rubs as its better for them not the snake, well i say its more the other way round vivs have glass doors so you can see the snake thats for your benefit not the snake the snake would like it better if it was just a wood box with no windows

7, people say rubs are not good for adult snakes but are good for hatchlings ,what the difference its a snake its not gonna be anything different when it grows up and is gonna need all the same things it did when it was a baby just bigger food and more space


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## Alex M

No big answers or questions here, but i'm not keen on RUBS myself. As primitive as reptiles are, i truly believe certain stimulants such as places to explore and bask (yes, in the case of my collection, hoggies and some of my milks will bask given the opportunity) are beneficial to a snake for instance, and hiding a mouse in a crevice somewhere in the vivarium provides valuable hunting stimulation...a mouse directly on forceps is not the same (but that's another argument). As they can't speak you'll never really know, but as a keeper i feel it's best to give them the benefit of the doubt that these little stimulants etc contribute to a happy more natural life. It'd be arrogant to think we know that a snake is happy kept purely on paper towel with just a water bowl for company, we get away with it because it can't say otherwise). Also, just having a snake in a darkened box does not make it feel secure, it needs a tight fitting hide to feel total security (proven by their choice of hide in the wild)...just loose in a box is not good enough imo. And if that RUB is small by the keepers choice to make it feel more secure, then at what point can the snake leave essentially just it's resting quarters?. On the whole...RUB's...No thankyou, couldn't care less if they're easier for the keeper to maintain/clean, the priority is the snakes well being and if that's harder work for us keepers, then so be it.


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## blackdragon

but you can provide all the things you listed with a rub the only thing missing is the glass sliding doors of a viv


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## Moshpitviper

A very good question Rory. I am a recent convert the RUB for very small species such as hognoses, for this i opt for the 33l box with plenty of ventilation holes added with the aid of a soldering iron. i also use Vision vivaria solely, i won't touch anythng else (maybe herptek) however it has taken me years to get to the point where i could afford them. I dont think there is a whole heap of difference between a vision or other generic plastic vivaria and RUB's other than price. yes it does appear to be that they are easier to clean, cost effective etc. 
My only complaint is that many keepers think it is ok to keep animals that have far outgrown the dimensions of even the largest RUB, any complaints I have made to people in the past have been met by the following answers...

its easier come breeding time,

They don't do a lot anyway

Its only for a few weeks (2 years on and still in there).

Now these may appear to be valid points to some, but i can explain them away in my own inimitable style.....

If you can't get them to copulate in a viv, you suck.

they don't have much choice in there now do they?

you mean you are too skint to buy an appropriate enclosure?

I will say there are advantages and disadvantages to using RUB's and Contico boxes but unfortunately too many keepers read between the lines and see cheap boxes like RUBs as carte blanche to go on a buying spree not remembering that eventually the hatchlings or juveniles in their care will soon outgrow their Current housing.

So in closing... I'm all for it, providing it is done sensibly and with some degree of common sense.... ie, no afrocks, burms, retics, anacondas etc.


----------



## Alex M

blackdragon said:


> but you can provide all the things you listed with a rub the only thing missing is the glass sliding doors of a viv


Ahhh, but generally speaking people don't provide it all, i very rarely see any RUB setup with much more than substrate (or paper) and a bowl. And good point by Moshpit aswell when he mentioned people that say 'the snakes don't do anything'....Well if they had the chance....

I tend to find snakes very boring to keep in a standard LAM style setup, but give them that bit extra and they then truely become a fascinating creature again. Won't deny that RUB's don't have their place though. Interesting debate Rory.


----------



## blackdragon

Alex M said:


> Ahhh, but generally speaking people don't provide it all, i very rarely see any RUB setup with much more than substrate (or paper) and a bowl. And good point by Moshpit aswell when he mentioned people that say 'the snakes don't do anything'....Well if they had the chance....
> 
> I tend to find snakes very boring to keep in a standard LAM style setup, but give them that bit extra and they then truely become a fascinating creature again. Won't deny that RUB's don't have their place though. Interesting debate Rory.


i know what you mean alot of rubs are just the snake and a water bowl, my out look is a bit different i tend to put more stuff in the rub than i would in a viv, am only using one rub at the moment and have every inch of floor space covered with things and about 5 toilet roll tubes i would not do this with a viv as would not be very pretty to look at but as its in a rub and set up with just the snake in mind i go a bit ott


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## spend_day

SiUK said:


> its a bit of a stupid question IMO, not aimed at you Rory, but anyone that knows animals, knows that snakes have very primitive brains compared to primates much less understanding, I agree with the fact they shouldnt be kept in tubs too small for them but in an appropriately sized tub I dont see any problem with it.


sums up my view. i keep my fire salamander and tiger salamander in plastic storage boxes andi see no difference to a wooden viv. i think this is more an argument about what u put in said rub or viv rather than the rub/viv itself.


----------



## Rain

The thing is, Snakes dont need the same levels of enrichment a monkey would. 
Snakes dont need to play with toys, they dont start self harming if they dont get let out their RUBs for play time. So long as a snake is warm, well fed, has water, and is safe, they dont seem to care what else is going on in their lives.
Where as parrots, monkeys, skunks, most warm blooded "pets" need mental and physical stimulation to keep them healthy.


----------



## Maureen Collinson

Rain said:


> The thing is, Snakes dont need the same levels of enrichment a monkey would.
> 
> You know how to pick them for sure.  No one could argue that with Monkeys being so close to humans, so yes I agree.
> 
> Snakes dont need to play with toys,
> 
> Can you prove that statement? as I have watched snakes play with certain toys for hours on end, and keep going back to them.
> 
> they dont start self harming if they dont get let out their RUBs for play time.
> 
> Wrong. Snakes have self harmed themselves as a result of the RUBS and such like, and not done so when anymore when placed in a viv.
> 
> So long as a snake is warm, well fed, has water, and is safe, they dont seem to care what else is going on in their lives.
> 
> I disagree there too.
> 
> Where as parrots, monkeys, skunks, most warm blooded "pets" need mental and physical stimulation to keep them healthy.


Correct.


Now ignoring your sure bet quote above, you only got 1 right out of 4, meaning your knowledge of snakes is very poor. Your don't keep your snakes in RUBS by any chance? as that would explain how you know so little about them.

Mo.


----------



## Maureen Collinson

Great posts Alex :no1:, but I do disagree with you on one thing. You say your snakes don't speak, but they do and you are listening. Their language is body language, and as such is recognized by those that care to learn to understand it. An easy example here is when we come across a deaf and dumb person, it is down to sign, and *body language*, and those interested enough will soon learn it. You *are reading* at least some of the body language being transmitted by your snakes.

Mo.  


Hi Dave. 

Very good post by you too :no1:. 

Mo. 


I accept there is a use for the RUBS too, but not in the way that they are being used by many, because they are cheap, easy to clean and you can have more. That in my eyes is very wrong and not how they should be used, and it will be a very sad day if because of the mis-use by some, they are banned because in certain circumstances they can be a life saver and the best solution for some reptiles, but many suffer through being wrongly placed in these boxes, and continue to suffer because the keeper has not had alternatives on stand by in case they were not suited to the box system. Just to add that I do talk from experience having had 7 racking systems in place for many years for certain adult snakes, whilst running the Rescue Centre here. I am down to 2 now, and have 8 snakes in 1 unit, of which some will be moved into vivs just leaving the ones that I am positive are better off there than in a viv, and I have the other one housing some of my royals, of which some spend time in vivs too. They are alternated according to how they go. They really do enjoy both when it appears to suits them, not me.

Hatchling shelves and boxes, I am a very strong believer in, and after tending to thousands of hatchlings over the years, I swear by this method for the babies, on condition one has different size boxes and moves the hatchlings up accordingly until they are big enough and strong enough to face more of the world around them. They thrive well using this method. Think of a very small plant that is in a small pot. Gardeners will know that if you decide to transfer the plant to a massive pot too early, it can die off. You have to upgrade just a little at a time in order for it to come on at it's best. 
Having said the above, I have a huge pet hate for the use of cricket boxes as a first home to all but the very tiny creatures like the 1in geckos for example. I really don't believe they should be used full time for any hatchling snakes unless again a tiny runt of the batch. They are too small, as well as being abrasive in most cases, and can cause injury to the snake inside. Short term when traveling, I can accept, as the hatchling could be stressed and the smaller it's container, hopefully the more secure it will be, but it still requires not to be abrasive. Those of you with cricket boxes, please test out by rubbing your finger along the inside where the holes are, and feel how rough the surface is, now think of the young snakes nose poking around there, and you can imagine how easy it could be for them to injure themselves, and mouth injury unchecked can lead to mouth rot and even death. It has happened, and will again, and why if we are responsible owners/keepers, should we be putting them at risk.

Mo.


----------



## CaseyM

I have both vivs and RUB racks, im not a huge fan of RUBs if im honest purely because i much prefer a viv set up, I spend fortunes on branches, plants logs hides etc for vivs because i just love how they look BUT as the majority of the collection are royals i do also have RUB racking as it enables me to keep the royals who dont like a viv environment and dont seem to thrive in them in RUBs instead.


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## ratboy

When this thread was first started I found it extremely annoying but on re-reading it I find it fairly amusing.

RUB's do not seal in the middle. A snake can push it up, stick it's head through the gap and either escape or throttle itself. Ahhhhh say some... but you can fix the lid in the middle can't you !!! well yes, you can... but then it's not an off-the-shelf RUB anymore is it  It's an RUB with the lid fixed... so you might as well have bought another type that does not need it's lid fixing in the first place eh ?

Have to agree with all the stimulation stuff too. Have you not watched your snakes when you put them in somewhere new ? or somewhere old after you have cleaned it and they can no longer smell their own selves ? they are like kids in a toy shop... investigating anything and everything.

Some people are missing so much.


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## Ssthisto

ratboy said:


> Have to agree with all the stimulation stuff too. Have you not watched your snakes when you put them in somewhere new ? or somewhere old after you have cleaned it and they can no longer smell their own selves ? they are like kids in a toy shop... investigating anything and everything.


Mine don't seem like "kid in a toyshop" when put into a novel environment - they seem more like "Ssthisto in an unfamiliar train station by herself". 

Nervous, high-energy, trying to keep themselves low profile and out of the way - and in fact STRESSED rather than investigating with curiosity.


----------



## Alex M

ratboy said:


> When this thread was first started I found it extremely annoying but on re-reading it I find it fairly amusing.
> 
> RUB's do not seal in the middle. A snake can push it up, stick it's head through the gap and either escape or throttle itself. Ahhhhh say some... but you can fix the lid in the middle can't you !!! well yes, you can... but then it's not an off-the-shelf RUB anymore is it  It's an RUB with the lid fixed... so you might as well have bought another type that does not need it's lid fixing in the first place eh ?
> 
> Have to agree with all the stimulation stuff too. Have you not watched your snakes when you put them in somewhere new ? or somewhere old after you have cleaned it and they can no longer smell their own selves ? they are like kids in a toy shop... investigating anything and everything.
> 
> Some people are missing so much.


Agree with every bit of that :2thumb:


----------



## Maureen Collinson

Ssthisto said:


> Mine don't seem like "kid in a toyshop" when put into a novel environment - they seem more like "Ssthisto in an unfamiliar train station by herself".
> 
> Now that comment had me bursting out loud with laughter, so thanks for that. Brilliant in fact. :no1::lol2::2thumb:
> 
> Nervous, high-energy, trying to keep themselves low profile and out of the way - and in fact STRESSED rather than investigating with curiosity.


Now that would have me wanting to investigate much deeper into things rather than decide it was down to the novel environment. There has to be something else that is causing such a reaction. I wonder if they are not at ease with you, or someone, or something else close by that they can sense and are nervous of, and so placing them somewhere strange to them would further unnerve them due to them already being that way.

Mo.


----------



## Ssthisto

Maureen Collinson said:


> Now that would have me wanting to investigate much deeper into things rather than decide it was down to the novel environment. There has to be something else that is causing such a reaction. I wonder if they are not at ease with you, or someone, or something else close by that they can sense and are nervous of, and so placing them somewhere strange to them would further unnerve them due to them already being that way.


Since most of my snakes will "reach" for me when someone else is handling them, I'm not overly concerned that they're scared of me specifically. 

Now, what they could be sensing/detecting is the fact that we own cats. I'm sure "cat" smells like predator to a smallish snake (and most of mine are from smallish species) so if they're reacting to that on the carpets/couch/bed, that's quite possibly an explanation. That said, they don't act nervous in their enclosures.


----------



## ratboy

Ssthisto said:


> Mine don't seem like "kid in a toyshop" when put into a novel environment - they seem more like "Ssthisto in an unfamiliar train station by herself".
> 
> Nervous, high-energy, trying to keep themselves low profile and out of the way - and in fact STRESSED rather than investigating with curiosity.


Seriously with mine Ssthisto, I may as well not be there. They usually spend a good 40-60 minutes investigating, I am simply ignored. The only exception to this is my male Taiwan who will bolt for the nearest hide and stay there until I leave. But if I pop my head around the door 10 minutes later, he's at it too.


----------



## Alex M

Maureen Collinson said:


> Great posts Alex :no1:, but I do disagree with you on one thing. You say your snakes don't speak, but they do and you are listening. Their language is body language, and as such is recognized by those that care to learn to understand it. An easy example here is when we come across a deaf and dumb person, it is down to sign, and *body language*, and those interested enough will soon learn it. You *are reading* at least some of the body language being transmitted by your snakes.
> 
> Mo.
> 
> 
> Hi Dave.
> 
> Very good post by you too :no1:.
> 
> Mo.
> 
> 
> I accept there is a use for the RUBS too, but not in the way that they are being used by many, because they are cheap, easy to clean and you can have more. That in my eyes is very wrong and not how they should be used, and it will be a very sad day if because of the mis-use by some, they are banned because in certain circumstances they can be a life saver and the best solution for some reptiles, but many suffer through being wrongly placed in these boxes, and continue to suffer because the keeper has not had alternatives on stand by in case they were not suited to the box system. Just to add that I do talk from experience having had 7 racking systems in place for many years for certain adult snakes, whilst running the Rescue Centre here. I am down to 2 now, and have 8 snakes in 1 unit, of which some will be moved into vivs just leaving the ones that I am positive are better off there than in a viv, and I have the other one housing some of my royals, of which some spend time in vivs too. They are alternated according to how they go. They really do enjoy both when it appears to suits them, not me.
> 
> Hatchling shelves and boxes, I am a very strong believer in, and after tending to thousands of hatchlings over the years, I swear by this method for the babies, on condition one has different size boxes and moves the hatchlings up accordingly until they are big enough and strong enough to face more of the world around them. They thrive well using this method. Think of a very small plant that is in a small pot. Gardeners will know that if you decide to transfer the plant to a massive pot too early, it can die off. You have to upgrade just a little at a time in order for it to come on at it's best.
> Having said the above, I have a huge pet hate for the use of cricket boxes as a first home to all but the very tiny creatures like the 1in geckos for example. I really don't believe they should be used full time for any hatchling snakes unless again a tiny runt of the batch. They are too small, as well as being abrasive in most cases, and can cause injury to the snake inside. Short term when traveling, I can accept, as the hatchling could be stressed and the smaller it's container, hopefully the more secure it will be, but it still requires not to be abrasive. Those of you with cricket boxes, please test out by rubbing your finger along the inside where the holes are, and feel how rough the surface is, now think of the young snakes nose poking around there, and you can imagine how easy it could be for them to injure themselves, and mouth injury unchecked can lead to mouth rot and even death. It has happened, and will again, and why if we are responsible owners/keepers, should we be putting them at risk.
> 
> Mo.


I see what you mean about a snake 'speaking', Mo. And you're right, as actions speak louder than words as they say. I think you also answered my thoughts on 'where RUBs have their purposes' too, especially the illness side. This whole RUB culture though is a world away from what i remember, i accept things move on but in the case of RUB's - in general - i think is a huge step back in herpetoculture husbandry. If someone had asked me 20 years ago where we would be now in 20 years time regarding herptile housing i'd never of thought everyone would of been squashing snakes in glorified ice cream tubs. Apologies to anyone offended by my thoughts but i find it a real shame that we can't of come up with anything better for our charges in that time, it just seems like a cop out to me, and that RUB's are purely in the best interests of the captors rather than the captives...definitely the wrong way round.


----------



## Ssthisto

ratboy said:


> Seriously with mine Ssthisto, I may as well not be there. They usually spend a good 40-60 minutes investigating, I am simply ignored. The only exception to this is my male Taiwan who will bolt for the nearest hide and stay there until I leave. But if I pop my head around the door 10 minutes later, he's at it too.


That said, I do have one or two animals who are interested and will investigate - but only if I stay close at hand, because I'm their "hide away from home". Irwin (my Everglades male) particularly - he's quite a bold guy and will investigate without panic once he's sure someone he knows is nearby.

And when we clean cages, they always have SOMETHING familiar-scented left in (I don't sterilise every item every time) so that they're not returning to a totally new enclosure. I wonder if they'd behave differently inside an enclosure if I did sterilise everything every time.

Wish I could leave my lot "loose" to explore without supervision but for the most part they're little'uns and the cats would play with them in ways I'd rather not have happen.


----------



## fishboy

i had 2 female royals 700g and 1100g. I housed them in 3' vivs with aspen substrate, 3 hides each, plastic plants and branches to climb on. I used AHS heaters and achieved an excellent temperature gradient. Sometimes they they were in the hides, sometimes they were in the branches and sometimes they just looked they wanted to get out. The smaller of the two was really shy and quite panicky when handled. I think in all they ate about 3 times each in 7 months, not losing any weight, and not gaining any. Eventually i gave up and put them in smaller plastic tubs with 2 hides and a water bowl. Within 3 days they both fed and the panicky one has really chilled out when handled and hasn't turned down a feed since. The other remains a bit of an awkward feeder as it only strikes at chicks initially but will take a rat after. I also have a male royal in one of the original viv and it's a fantastic feeder and great to handle, but rarely (if ever) leaves it's hide voluntarily, which makes me wonder if it needs the room the viv provides. I thinks RUBS are fantastic for royal pythons. Not all snakes though.

edit - I don't sense royal pythons really "need" stimulation beyond: food, water, a temperature gradient, adequate space to thermoregulate, and all this provided within a secure environment. I think the choice to provide anything beyond this is purely up to the keeper. A royal python may stick it's head out of it's hide to investigate a vibration which could be food or a threat but it's definitely not saying hello or thinking oooh, it's playtime, i really want to be handled.

not really finished but i want to watch something on TV : victory:


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## Maureen Collinson

I think you would find different with my 40 year old royal and others I have here Fishboy. I do have 3 royals however that thrive better in my racking system, and thus I ensure they get exercise outside of them in order to maintain their health.

Mo.


----------



## Maureen Collinson

Ssthisto said:


> Since most of my snakes will "reach" for me when someone else is handling them, I'm not overly concerned that they're scared of me specifically.
> 
> Now, what they could be sensing/detecting is the fact that we own cats. I'm sure "cat" smells like predator to a smallish snake (and most of mine are from smallish species) so if they're reacting to that on the carpets/couch/bed, that's quite possibly an explanation. That said, they don't act nervous in their enclosures.


Could well be down to your cats, and the reason they do not appear nervous in their own environment will no doubt be down to the time they have remained safe within there, so are more relaxed about it now.

Mo.


----------



## Caz

You've had the royal since 1968 Mo?


----------



## Maureen Collinson

Whoops. Forgot to add a couple of photos of my oldest royal, taken some years back with an old type camera through glass.

Mo. 

Edit. The viv is 4ft long x 2ft depth x 4ft high.


----------



## fishboy

Maureen Collinson said:


> Now ignoring your sure bet quote above, you only got 1 right out of 4, meaning your knowledge of snakes is very poor. Your don't keep your snakes in RUBS by any chance? as that would explain how you know so little about them.
> 
> Mo.


Hi Maureen, just a couple of questions on some of your replies to Rain's 4 statements

"they dont start self harming if they dont get let out their RUBs for play time. "

*Wrong. Snakes have self harmed themselves as a result of the RUBS and such like, and not done so when anymore when placed in a viv.

how exactly did the snakes "self harm" and how can you be sure it was a consequence of being kept in a RUB? If you are referring to a snake becoming trapped after trying to squeeze out the middle of the tub then that can hardly be called self harming, more a failed escape attempt, not unlike a person climbing out a window and getting stuck (funny until it's you!!! and i know....). The only way i can possibly imagine a snake could self harm would be to bite it's self? Or are you referring to a snake rubbing it's face on the inside of the RUB in an attempt to get out? something which my larger female royal did in the vivarium "for no apparent reason" no matter what i adjusted. I really do think she just hated the glass frontage to the viv and much prefers the "4 walls"of the opaque tub as she stopped trying to escape once i put her in.

"So long as a snake is warm, well fed, has water, and is safe, they dont seem to care what else is going on in their lives."

*I disagree there too. 

why?


Nice royal by the way. she was 14 when i was born :eek4:


----------



## Lucifus

I don't see the problem with RUBS as long as conditions are met. I keep a breeding set of geckos and a hatching royal in them.

Tarantulas and inverts are 80% of the time kept in faunariums and contico tubs which are all really just plastic boxs with air holes. Some of the burrowing species are kept in plastic cereal tubs. While that seems odd what it does do is actually give it the burrowing space it needs. There are glass tanks out there that also do this but nobody will pay £40 to house an animal in glass when they can go out and spend £4 on a cerial tub which does the job exactly the same. The difference is people dont complain about this in tarantulas because they are seen as basic and lack intelligence when in fact despite acting on purely instinct they can feign a lot of intelligence to the point its scary.

Now we go to snakes and lizzards and its suddenly a big thing? A snake is not going to complain what its enclosure its made out of and even if it could it wouldnt. I doupt it would say that "i dont want to be housed in anything but luxurious pine and satin sheets". An enclosure is an enclosure. There are upsides and downsides of both. Vivs are expensive and can degrade from moisture but hold heat in better and are good for display. RUB's are cheap, come in the same size's of vivs but are not great for holding heat or displaying but they do not degrade and are light so you can clean them more thoughraly than you could a viv. 

Any problems caused in a RUB is going to happen in a same sized viv too.

When it gets to the point of monkeys however their enclosures are a big thing, they are just under if not on the same level of intelligence as we are. Its why we use them in psychological experiments. A human would go nuts in a small cage and would cause all levels of psychological problems, the same happens to monkeys. Why do you think we make prison inmates go on walks?


----------



## Caz

Caz said:


> You've had the royal since 1968 Mo?





Maureen Collinson said:


> Whoops. Forgot to add a couple of photos of my oldest royal, taken some years back with an old type camera through glass.
> 
> Mo.
> 
> Edit. The viv is 4ft long x 2ft depth x 4ft high.


Big Royal! Where did you get 'it'?


----------



## Moshpitviper

I'd like to mention that i just upgraded my Bredls Pythons to Vision vivs 322's, they probably could have spent longer in the RUB's but to be honest... i really want them on display, and they also really love to climb. not possible in a RUB really, cetainly not the 33l ones that i use for juvenile snakes.


----------



## Rain

Maureen Collinson said:


> Correct.
> 
> 
> Now ignoring your sure bet quote above, you only got 1 right out of 4, meaning your knowledge of snakes is very poor. Your don't keep your snakes in RUBS by any chance? as that would explain how you know so little about them.
> 
> Mo.


Well, excuse me almightly snake queen! I know you've been keeping for a very long time, and fair play for that, but I fail to see how your opinion is the judge of what is right and wrong in the world, just because you disagree doesn't make it incorrect.
Yes, I do keep SOME of my snakes in rubs, maybe 40% or so, however the rest are in naturally decorated vivs.
The point I was trying to make is that snakes don't need (though I agree that they may benifit from) the same level of stimulation as most warm blooded pets.


----------



## timberwolf

I have deleted my post. I can't be bothered with all this.


----------



## Ruth

fishboy said:


> Hi Maureen, just a couple of questions on some of your replies to Rain's 4 statements
> 
> "they dont start self harming if they dont get let out their RUBs for play time. "
> 
> *Wrong. Snakes have self harmed themselves as a result of the RUBS and such like, and not done so when anymore when placed in a viv.
> 
> how exactly did the snakes "self harm" and how can you be sure it was a consequence of being kept in a RUB? If you are referring to a snake becoming trapped after trying to squeeze out the middle of the tub then that can hardly be called self harming, more a failed escape attempt, not unlike a person climbing out a window and getting stuck (funny until it's you!!! and i know....). The only way i can possibly imagine a snake could self harm would be to bite it's self? Or are you referring to a snake rubbing it's face on the inside of the RUB in an attempt to get out? something which my larger female royal did in the vivarium "for no apparent reason" no matter what i adjusted. I really do think she just hated the glass frontage to the viv and much prefers the "4 walls"of the opaque tub as she stopped trying to escape once i put her in.
> 
> "So long as a snake is warm, well fed, has water, and is safe, they dont seem to care what else is going on in their lives."
> 
> *I disagree there too.
> 
> why?
> 
> 
> Nice royal by the way. she was 14 when i was born :eek4:


 

Hi Fishboy

I know you have specifically addressed Mo here but this is my personal experience of my cornsnake Jaffa self-harming himself in a RUB, basically he used to go round and round the box and caused severe damage to his nose, I have since moved him into a viv and he no longer does the nose rubbing, exactly the same equipment/furnishing in the viv as was in the RUB therefore can only presume that he was not suited to life in a RUB.

Ruth


----------



## Fixx

Maureen Collinson said:


> Correct.
> 
> 
> Now ignoring your sure bet quote above, you only got 1 right out of 4, meaning your knowledge of snakes is very poor. Your don't keep your snakes in RUBS by any chance? as that would explain how you know so little about them.
> 
> Mo.


How rude! What gives you the right to make judgements like that Maureen? Any remaining respect I had for you just flew out of the window.


----------



## Amalthea

Why does keeping snakes in RUBs show that a person knows nothing about said snakes??? All of their needs can be met in a RUB, just like it can be in a viv. What exactly is the difference between the two, other than one is plastic?


----------



## the-tick

I've kept all my hatchlings in rub's until they were big enough to go into a viv (I choose a viv for them because it's a furniture thing they match the rest of the front room more than a rub stack would)

But what's with the high and mighty stuff ?? it bears no relation to the op question.



> Originally Posted by *Maureen Collinson*
> Correct.
> 
> 
> Now ignoring your sure bet quote above, you only got 1 right out of 4, meaning your knowledge of snakes is very poor. Your don't keep your snakes in RUBS by any chance? as that would explain how you know so little about them.
> 
> Mo.


If you bothered to actually talk to the person you are accusing you'd know how wrong you are in judging them in that way.

I personally wouldn't keep any snake of sufficient size in rub's as I prefer using bulbs as a controlable heat source, where as a hatchling corn is more than ok in an rub with a heatmat.


----------



## glidergirl

Some vivs are made of plastic too.


----------



## C.C. Rider

I don't know Maureen but I know enough about her to listen to what she has to say, over the years she has been a consistent presence on UK forums always ready to offer advise and expertise which most longstanding UK keepers don't have the required thick skin to do. 

I don't believe I have ever read a post by Maureen that was intended to brag or pointscore over someone else and believe that while sometimes her posts might seem OTT to some this is because she genuinely cares for reptiles and has rescued hundreds of animals that have become ill through either ignorance, neglect or deliberate mistreatment, over a period of decades, if I'd done that it might colour my view of the hobby too. 

I didn't read Maureen's earlier post as offensive, just pointing out that it can be more difficult to observe animals in tubs (especially when kept in racks where only about 20% of the enclosure might be visible from the front unless you bend down and squint in and even then it is pretty dark inside.) I've missed problems before in my animals kept in racks and I'm big enough to admit it. However if the animal is in a rack like this it cannot force the RUB lid up and get stuck in it or in some circumstances the lid is not used at all as the shelves are such a tight fit.

The hobby is constantly changing though, when I started in 1989 people still used fish tanks, I kept my first snakes in them and I wouldn't dream of doing it now. People learned by trial and error that there was a better way, perhaps we'll have a new invention on the horizon that will make racks and vivs look as stone aged as my old fish tank, I hope that the next big thing in snake caging will be devised with the animal more in mind as I think the current fad for tubs etc is more designed for the keeper than the snake. 

I have no objection to tubs per se, as I say I keep snakes in them myself if they are of a sufficient size but I'm not keen on the idea of keeping 5ft colubrids in 50l tubs in great big stacks, to me it is just so the keeper can keep as many animals in as small a space as possible. 
The fact that an animal can exist in this set up (become institutionalised to it if you will,) doesn't necessarily mean that it's good, enough people have experience of the obesity this causes and associated problems such as eggbinding that things like the Vision Racks (with bigger tubs,) are becoming more popular but I'd still be concerned that I might miss potential problems even if the tubs are almost clear to see into, it is still not the same as the panoramic view of the viv. Although if your viv is heavily planted with lots of hides you won't see the animal either. I've rambled long enough to start running into contradictions in my own argument now so I'll stop.

Play nicely y'all :2thumb:

PS I'd get 3 out of 4 in Maureen's quiz but I'm intrigued by the point regarding snakes and "toys" can you elaborate on this point Maureen or if you have the time pm me on it if you don't want to elaborate on a public forum? I have had snakes who have a favourite hide etc but not an attachment to anything over and above that.


----------



## blackdragon

i think that a good point about housing moving on with the time's and a clear plastic tub with a lock down lid made specially for snakes could move this hobby forward giving the best of both worlds, its about time some one got some thing like this marketed and with rubs as popular as they are the person who does it will end up very rich


----------



## timberwolf

C.C. Rider said:


> I don't know Maureen but I know enough about her to listen to what she has to say, over the years she has been a consistent presence on UK forums always ready to offer advise and expertise which most longstanding UK keepers don't have the required thick skin to do.
> 
> I don't believe I have ever read a post by Maureen that was intended to brag or pointscore over someone else and believe that while sometimes her posts might seem OTT to some this is because she genuinely cares for reptiles and has rescued hundreds of animals that have become ill through either ignorance, neglect or deliberate mistreatment, over a period of decades, if I'd done that it might colour my view of the hobby too.
> 
> 
> I
> Play nicely y'all :2thumb:


 
I personally have taken exception to Ms Collinsons response to Rain. Rain is a keeper of no little experience, and genuinely cares for all his animals, as several of the forum members here will testify. I don't suppose for one minute that he will claim to know everything, and he is always pleased to learn something new, but to be told he knows nothing, by someone who doesn't know him from Adam, I find incredibly rude and not a little arrogant!

I dont doubt that Ms Collinson knows a great deal from her years of experience, and as I've said before, I have a great deal of respect for that, but just because someone has a different opinion doesnt give anyone the right to be so bloody rude. It's closed-minded and it stinks. My issue here is not to do with the content of the thread which is interesting and valid, but how many of you here would go up to a total stranger and insult them in this manner?


----------



## loulou

Maureen Collinson said:


> I think you would find different with my 40 year old royal and others I have here Fishboy. I do have 3 royals however that thrive better in my racking system, and thus I ensure they get exercise outside of them in order to maintain their health.
> 
> Mo.


so the difference between you having royals in a racking system and people like say Rain for example (seeing as you decided to pick on him) is?

hypocricy! one person can rack and another can't, (and yes most people that use RUBs rack them) when you made that statement about Rain you were making a VERY VERY sweeping statement and bunching everyone that racks with RUBs in the same boat which would include yourself seeing as you rack as well, and many many other people we know that are very knowledgable and respected in their areas. 

I do not care who feels like flaming me for talking out I am used to it but it looks like I am not the only one that thinks this


----------



## sparkle

I think maybe the point here is..

People who choose RUBS without consideration for vivs may be missing something.
I have all my animals in vivs with stimulation all bar ONE snake. 
I have tried him in various sized vivariums.. and he just never settles however I am truly unhappy he is in a RUB. I just feel he isnt getting what he needs in it.
He is a great plains rat snake and I really wish i coukld find something I felt was maximising my potential as his keeper and his life as a captive snake.

I am going to re-try him in a vivarium and monitor his behaviour and feeding responses once again..
The RUB sadly just isnt good enough for him in my opinion.
What I do that may be slightly different is make sure my animals are observed and choices are made dependant on HOW the animal reacts. What behaviour changes are noted and what I can implement to maximise the captive keeping for each animal.

With keepers who can ONLY keep in RUBS due to space or money this cant be done. 
Can everyone who had say 30/ 40/50 rubs genuinely say that they observe each snake long enough to work out what they react best too?
For example what if during one genuine observation study a keeper felt 20 out of 50 snakes would do better in a viv?? Then they trialed it and it wokred out they were right. Could they actually provide 20 vivs with branches and decor and have the space.

Animals without this individual consideration stop being INDIVIDUALS and start becoming a collection without individual needs.
I genuinely think this is what Maureen was trying her best to say.
However with the degree of passion and emotion that animals ignite in people posts are sometimes intense and emotive and debate can seen arguementative.
Noone is saying people do not care about animals if they keep them in rubs.. thats not true.. but the absolute delight of observation and getting to know an animal individually is I feel drastically reduced.

What I think was trying to be pointed out was... each animal to some people ( including me and a few others) have the luxury of being observed fully.. I try to work out what mine REALLY need.. But that only comes with having a LOT of time.. and a LOT of desire. Also not having too many animals so this can actually be achieved.

I did it with all my cresties and whilst they were not in RUBS the exo terras have been changed and living arrangements too. Not all my females can live with another. And some like one more than others. I have had to change and adapt to their preferences not mine.,
SO the question is.. do we ASK ourselves questions about what the animals are trying to tell us.. do we have the time or inclination to TRULY observe make notes and then changes... and if so how do we monitor it..
is it a bigger viv.. a smaller viv.. a more busy tank ith branches and hidey holes.. a less crowded. and because I dont have LOADS of reptiles I can change and accomodate to their needs.

My irinian jaya cross jungle is in a 4x2x2.. with great pieces of java wood. After the addition of these java wood pieces i nopticed he adores to hang aorund on the branches and slither through them.
I have observed he adores to climb too.. and since he is a hybrid I need to change and adapt to his needs.. could he survive in a rub.. almost definately.. would he be satisfied.. I dont think so..

I want to give him a more arboreal tank.. when he reaches full size I wil make decisions on how to bes achieve this.
Reptiles do speak with behaviour and I note and study these behaviours and then make decisions based on that.
if RUBs are your only choice due to space and time or money its not possible to make those choices or decisions.
And whilst a person using only rubs may be the most caring concerned owner.. it is still something to consider regarding your reptiles environment.


----------



## ratboy

Anyone who has known Mo for more than 10 minutes will know that she ALWAYS speaks out on behalf of the animals, not those that keep them.

If you keep the quotes in context, the post that has everyone up in arms was a response to a post which stated that Snakes do not require any form of stimulation and snakes do not harm themselves if kept in RUB's. Two points that I would hope the majority of keepers would disagree with.

Although I agree that Mo's response was rather blunt, it will hopefully make keepers think that maybe their snakes do need a little more in their lives than heat, security and water.


----------



## sparkle

ratboy said:


> Anyone who has known Mo for more than 10 minutes will know that she ALWAYS speaks out on behalf of the animals, not those that keep them.
> 
> If you keep the quotes in context, the post that has everyone up in arms was a response to a post which stated that Snakes do not require any form of stimulation and snakes do not harm themselves if kept in RUB's. Two points that I would hope the majority of keepers would disagree with.
> 
> Although I agree that Mo's response was rather blunt, it will hopefully make keepers think that maybe their snakes do need a little more in their lives than heat, security and water.


 

Totally agree

I know my post ( just before yours) as usual was rather long and laboured..

However I definately feel that whilst Mo is blunt and opinionated her view was NOT never to keep a snake in a RUB..

it was to make sure you as the keeper always made alowances for CHOICE

many RUB keepers could not honestly say if they felt their animals would eb better off in vivs with more stimulation.. they COULD genuinely provide it..

I feel this is why she was making an observation that allbeit some of hers were in rubs they had been observed as ones who faired BETTER in rubs..

the observation and careful consideration of choice.. is what makes maureens keeping different .. and whilst she may not have explained that in a way that was totally non offensive to everyone here.. I strongly feel it is exactly what she meant.


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## blackdragon

the thing is there is a difference in a fact and an opinion, if someone has a fact wrong then it would be fair to be blunt with them to make them see the truth but if someone has a different opinion they you have to kind of just accept it as things like experience and what not dont change an opinion into a fact. I could have an opinion that newspaper as a substraight is bad and keep snakes for 30 years but it would still just be an opinion and i would have no excuse to be rude to someone who thinks different.


----------



## timberwolf

ratboy said:


> Anyone who has known Mo for more than 10 minutes will know that she ALWAYS speaks out on behalf of the animals, not those that keep them.
> 
> If you keep the quotes in context, the post that has everyone up in arms was a response to a post which stated that Snakes do not require any form of stimulation and snakes do not harm themselves if kept in RUB's. Two points that I would hope the majority of keepers would disagree with.
> 
> Although I agree that Mo's response was rather blunt, it will hopefully make keepers think that maybe their snakes do need a little more in their lives than heat, security and water.


Anyone who has known Rain for more than 10 minutes will know that Ms Collinsons comments were undeserved. Bluntness is one thing, but I will not condone blatant rudeness. I don't in my professional life and will not let it go un-remarked when it is directed at someone for whom I have great respect. 

However, let's move on past this silliness and return to the original purpose of the thread.


----------



## Rain

The thing is, I'm not saying snakes need no stimulation, I said;


> Snakes dont need the same levels of enrichment a monkey would


Which I feel is true. Yes snakes may benifit from it, but they do not need it in the same way that mokeys do.

I said;


> they dont start self harming if they dont get let out their RUBs for play time


Which is also true, if I dont take a snake out of its rub every night they don't rub their noses raw by morning. Snakes DO self harm, but this is not only because of being kept in RUBs, They can self harm due to ANY husbandry mistakes, in wooden vivs, rubs, plastic vivs, fish tanks etc. What I was saying is that RUBs are not the only cause of self harm in snakes.

(strangly for me)I agree with Sparkle, that its about taking the time to figure out what snakes individually need, and with the snakes we have here, I feel we have made the time to see what the snakes (and lizards, and all other animals in fact) prefer, yes we have a lot between us, but because its not just me looking after some 150 animals WE have made time to care for our animals properly. We have royals in RUBs and vivs, we've kept boas, young retics, corns, ratsnakes, garters, leos, cresties, all in both vivs and Rubs, some get on better in one than the other, and they stay in the ones they do better in. We have a pair of royals who will not eat if kept in RUBs, so they live in vivs, and eat quite happily.

As I've said before, I know Mo has the animals best interests at heart, and I know she's been keeping reptiles since before I was even a twinkle in my fathers eye. Whats more, I can appriciate that she has had many a year of having to verbially b:censor:h slap people into doing the right thing, what I dont appriciate is the frank rudeness, I dont know what I'm expecting here, I dont want an appoligy, and frankly, I doubt I'd get one, but I'm quite content to keep my opinion, and willingly accept anyone elses, when offered without the seemingly low standard of common manners that is becoming a regular thing on this forum.


EDIT** And now, can we PLEASE move back to the original topic which seems to have gone out the window since page 10. Before this thread (which does touch on a vaild subject for once) gets locked and forgotten


----------



## sparkle

Rain said:


> The thing is, I'm not saying snakes need no stimulation, I said;
> 
> Which I feel is true. Yes snakes may benifit from it, but they do not need it in the same way that mokeys do.
> 
> I said;
> 
> Which is also true, if I dont take a snake out of its rub every night they don't rub their noses raw by morning. Snakes DO self harm, but this is not only because of being kept in RUBs, They can self harm due to ANY husbandry mistakes, in wooden vivs, rubs, plastic vivs, fish tanks etc. What I was saying is that RUBs are not the only cause of self harm in snakes.
> 
> (strangly for me)I agree with Sparkle, that its about taking the time to figure out what snakes individually need, and with the snakes we have here, I feel we have made the time to see what the snakes (and lizards, and all other animals in fact) prefer, yes we have a lot between us, but because its not just me looking after some 150 animals WE have made time to care for our animals properly. We have royals in RUBs and vivs, we've kept boas, young retics, corns, ratsnakes, garters, leos, cresties, all in both vivs and Rubs, some get on better in one than the other, and they stay in the ones they do better in. We have a pair of royals who will not eat if kept in RUBs, so they live in vivs, and eat quite happily.
> 
> As I've said before, I know Mo has the animals best interests at heart, and I know she's been keeping reptiles since before I was even a twinkle in my fathers eye. Whats more, I can appriciate that she has had many a year of having to verbially b:censor:h slap people into doing the right thing, what I dont appriciate is the frank rudeness, I dont know what I'm expecting here, I dont want an appoligy, and frankly, I doubt I'd get one, but I'm quite content to keep my opinion, and willingly accept anyone elses, when offered without the seemingly low standard of common manners that is becoming a regular thing on this forum.
> 
> 
> EDIT** And now, can we PLEASE move back to the original topic which seems to have gone out the window since page 10. Before this thread (which does touch on a vaild subject for once) gets locked and forgotten


 
I totally understand why you felt it was rude Rain, and I know you and Reyiu care for your animals. Trust me Kat is one of the most emotive and commited keepers here. Just because she is not as vocal as many including myself does not mean her values are less. 

I can also totally see Mo's point regardless of how it was made. Although how something is said can also cause people to close down and not want to listen especially if it is personal.

I think all I was trying to do with my subsequent posts was to help clear up what i thought Mo meant. Possibly because I agree with her underlying motives behind the post.

opinion is one thing.. I know I can come across as very rude and aggressive in my posting style. So i feel often valid points can be made on the forum but they get lost in the WAY they are put across.

I am not above appologising when i feel I have done this. Forums dont have TONE in the type and what one person feels is rude another will see as challenging and opinionated.


Hopefully this thread can continue being discussed from both sides.


----------



## timberwolf

sparkle said:


> I totally understand why you felt it was rude Rain, and I know you and Reyiu care for your animals. Trust me Kat is one of the most emotive and commited keepers here. Just because she is not as vocal as many including myself does not mean her values are less.
> 
> I can also totally see Mo's point regardless of how it was made. Although how something is said can also cause people to close down and not want to listen especially if it is personal.
> 
> I think all I was trying to do with my subsequent posts was to help clear up what i thought Mo meant. Possibly because I agree with her underlying motives behind the post.
> 
> opinion is one thing.. I know I can come across as very rude and aggressive in my posting style. So i feel often valid points can be made on the forum but they get lost in the WAY they are put across.
> 
> I am not above appologising when i feel I have done this. Forums dont have TONE in the type and what one person feels is rude another will see as challenging and opinionated.
> 
> 
> Hopefully this thread can continue being discussed from both sides.


With respect Sparkle, what has Reiyuu got to do with this?


----------



## sparkle

timberwolf said:


> With respect Sparkle, what has Reiyuu got to do with this?


 
With respect... ???

I wouldnt have thought any less.

I hope I was beinf respectful to EVRYONE incolved in this discussion.


I was trying to point out as a couple they are good keepers, caring etc... if thats wrong then I appologise. If it bothered you or her or Rain again I appologise.

I can ask a moderator to ammend my post if that is helpful.

I wasnt trying to upset ANYONE to the contrary I was actually trying to calm the thread down and settle it.

Therefore rather than continue off the actual topic I shall not comment further on anything BUT the RUB debate.


----------



## Robbie

Rather than take this thread to all new topics, perhaps if we stayed most focused on the subject?

I personally hate Really Useful Boxes. I do realise that, being lightweight and plastic one is able to move them without much hassle and drilling extra ventilation is a breeze. I'd rather scrub the inside of a wooden viv though.

I'm not quite getting the whole "people who keep multiple animals in plastic tubs are any less interested in handling their animals". Show me the figures and I'll start believing however I have to assume that everyone cares for their animals (if that includes handling) as much as I do. Offcourse, until we see otherwise.


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## blackdragon

i cant help but think its all a bit like the old question "what is the most heavy, a ton of bricks or a ton of feathers" because after reading all of this i still cant see how a 65lt rub is any different than a 2ft viv apart from what it is made of and how it looks from the outside


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## timberwolf

sparkle said:


> With respect... ???
> 
> I wouldnt have thought any less.
> 
> I hope I was beinf respectful to EVRYONE incolved in this discussion.


Sparkle you have misunderstood me. You have PM


----------



## Ssthisto

blackdragon said:


> i cant help but think its all a bit like the old question "what is the most heavy, a ton of bricks or a ton of feathers" because after reading all of this i still cant see how a 65lt rub is any different than a 2ft viv apart from what it is made of and how it looks from the outside


Good point.

If we remove ALL the internal furnishings from the enclosure, what is the difference between:

A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch wooden front opening vivarium
A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch wooden top opening vivarium
A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch glass top opening fishtank
A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch glass front opening vivarium
A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch plastic front opening vivarium
A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch plastic top opening vivarium
A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch plastic top opening really useful box
A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch plastic front opening really useful box

One would assume that if you put the EXACT same equipment in each enclosure:

Heating equipment with thermostat
Lighting equipment with regulation/thermostat if required
Water bowl
Hides (plural)
Branches for climbing/movement
Foliage for hiding/etc

Then they are qualitatively the same.

Comparing a Really Useful Box for a reptile *of appropriate size* to a parrot cage for a primate is not an accurate comparison.


----------



## essexchondro

> Good point.
> 
> If we remove ALL the internal furnishings from the enclosure, what is the difference between:
> 
> A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch wooden front opening vivarium
> A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch wooden top opening vivarium
> A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch glass top opening fishtank
> A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch glass front opening vivarium
> A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch plastic front opening vivarium
> A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch plastic top opening vivarium
> A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch plastic top opening really useful box
> A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch plastic front opening really useful box
> 
> One would assume that if you put the EXACT same equipment in each enclosure:
> 
> Heating equipment with thermostat
> Lighting equipment with regulation/thermostat if required
> Water bowl
> Hides (plural)
> Branches for climbing/movement
> Foliage for hiding/etc
> 
> Then they are qualitatively the same.
> 
> Comparing a Really Useful Box for a reptile *of appropriate size* to a parrot cage for a primate is not an accurate comparison


The difference is *price*, nothing more. Plastic tubs being by far the cheapest option and therefore more economical to a keeper with multiple animals to house.


----------



## Maureen Collinson

Wow. So many posts since I last signed on with time to spare for replying. 
It was my intention to start a new thread in order not to detract further on this one, but as it appears to have slowed right down yet again, I am now posting here instead, but where to begin, and can I reply to all, and at the same time in a way that comes over as correct? Of that I'm not sure, but I do have to reply for several reasons, and they are all important ones, so in no particular order here we go. 

First of all I will address you Rain. 
Top marks to you for the way in which you conducted yourself in your first reply to me. You are right in that I came over as right up my own rear, and believe me if you saw my rear, you would know that is a fate that even I could not deal with for long. (Thanks be that I don't have to look at it on a daily basis). I was abrupt, and yes even down right rude, which I had no right to be. I wanted to make an impact, but phased my post to you so very badly. I am truly sorry for that Rain. (Embassed face) 

In my defence, I did see red, not just from the animals point of view, but for the fact that you are up in a high class as a reptile keeper, and keeping the reptiles that you do, I have come to expect some of the finest answers from you. I am almost a total has been now, but you are the keeper of today, and tomorrow, that many will look up to, and as such should stop and give a little thought to what you post. I know none of us know it all, nor do all of us get it right every time. No human does, but my response to your post was in reply to your very sweeping statement of....................Snakes DON'T need the same enrichment a Monkey would. Snakes DON'T need to play with toys. Snakes DON'T start self harming if they DON'T get out of their RUB'S for play time. Then you went on to say that as long as the snake is well fed, watered, safe and warm, they don't seem to care what else is going on in their lives. 
Now all that you have said there, is said in a way that comes over from you as fact, so I turned it around and gave you the opposite facts back, in order to make others react and think about it all. That way we have not 1 but 2 ways of looking at it now. In truth, none of us can really say for sure as we are all still on a huge learning curve, but it is my belief that we should not dismiss out of hand the fact that snakes might well require more than we give them at present as surely that is very wrong. The snakes can't fend for themselves, so if we are to be good keepers then err on the side of caution we must, whilst we continue to learn. My personal belief is that snakes require enrichment of sorts in their lives, and that means toys of a sort. I have seen self harm caused by snakes being in RUBS or similar plastic containers, but maybe more on that in another post. 

We have all read, no snakes are social. It's also been said that snakes are solitary creatures. Now as more years unfold we hear of Rattle snake Mums all grouping together and having a nursey where the Mums all partake in guarding their young. The king cobra stayswith her eggs, starving whilst she does so, and moves off just before they hatch, so that she does not eat them herself. African rocks that stay with their young. My own personal experiences with my royals where the Mum incubator her eggs, whilst Dad went up and stayed on the basking shelve until he was very hot indeed, he then went back to Mum and transferred the heat to her, in order to help her, and in so doing, preserved her strength. He also used to go and lay in the water dish and then back to Mum dripping water over her and some times the eggs if Mum uncoiled to allow this. Snakes can hear was all I heard for years and years, and always disputed it, and now it is written that they can hear a lot better than many accepted. There is no money for the type of research required here, and so it's down to the people that truly care enough to do it for the love of the snakes, but please keep an open mind till then everyone. 

I have noted Rain where you slightly altered how you phased things now, and am happy you have given it further thought, and if I am in the dog house for that, then it is well worth it, just because you are the mentor of tomorrow, and not me. 

Once again, I am really sorry for how brunt and rude I was towards you personally. No excuse. I rushed in, and posted and did not read it back, so I deserve the stick for it.

Maureen. 

Rather than make loads of posts here, I will instead add my thanks to those of you that know what I am about, and have seen fit to post here on my behalf. You all know who you are. It's hard when we see that a friend has erred and rubbed people up the wrong way, but you guys and girls replied in such a way as to avoid any further offence being taken, and at the same time, let me know you were still around for me too. :blush: 'Hugs' to you all for caring. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

You also have some very good friends Rain, so I am sure we are in agreement here that we are indeed both very fortunate on that score.


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## Maureen Collinson

C.C.Rider, what a pleasant surprise.:2thumb: A name from the past. Great to see you are still touring the circuits. 

You ask about toys? Well you have already cottoned on. Some hides are indeed favourites with snakes. I used to get great amusement from watching a friends snake weaving in and out of one of those hides such as the type seen in aquariums with loads of holes in them, and this snake continued to do this for many years off and on. 

I also had to help a Vets receptionist to set up a home on the quick for a couple of garter snakes that someone left there as they could no longer keep them. It was decided to add a couple of parrot toy, wooden ladders to be precise. Well, how those snakes appeared to like them. It was a regular routine with them to climb them, weaving in and out, and when the ladders were replaced with a couple of branches, the garters ignored them, and took to hiding quite a lot, but on removing the branches, and re-placing the ladders, the garters were back out and once again climbing up and down them, and really did seem more alive, and more content.

I have other examples but will end with just one more type of toy for now for snakes, and that is seen here in the pictures with Leggies. Meet Leggie's toy, Dee, (Draught excluder extraordinaire), that has kept Leggies well occupied for months at a time, and yes he enjoys it, and best of all it keeps him ermmmmmm, won't say happy just in case, but will say very contented, which I can prove, and I will go on to say it keeps him *well * *'stimulated'* as well, :lol2:and that without it, he would be in a sorry way, due to a rubbed nose and a very raw rear end. 

Mo.


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## gaz

some good observations made above,always good to remember that we know almost nothing about our charges and what makes then tick.
regards gaz


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## Maureen Collinson

Ssthisto said:


> Good point.
> 
> If we remove ALL the internal furnishings from the enclosure, what is the difference between:
> 
> A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch wooden front opening vivarium
> A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch wooden top opening vivarium
> A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch glass top opening fishtank
> A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch glass front opening vivarium
> A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch plastic front opening vivarium
> A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch plastic top opening vivarium
> A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch plastic top opening really useful box
> A 26 inch by 16 inch by 18 inch plastic front opening really useful box
> 
> One would assume that if you put the EXACT same equipment in each enclosure:
> 
> Heating equipment with thermostat
> Lighting equipment with regulation/thermostat if required
> Water bowl
> Hides (plural)
> Branches for climbing/movement
> Foliage for hiding/etc
> 
> Then they are qualitatively the same.
> 
> Comparing a Really Useful Box for a reptile *of appropriate size* to a parrot cage for a primate is not an accurate comparison.



Now whilst the above be true, it does change as far as suitability goes when we decide to house snakes within.

I wonder just how long any of you have had these RUBS for, including those of you that have them in a racking system, or similar type boxes. These types of boxes are not brilliant when it comes to withstanding heat, and the use of heat does cause them to become brittle and break into many itty bitty pieces, so just hope that you don't have it happen when you are not around as you could have some escapees to deal with. I also hope you have back up boxes for the same reason. Apart from that, the use of any lighting also causes the boxes to become brittle in a very short time of use, so far from ideal again.

Many snakes succumb to nasty RI infections when they are housed in plastic boxes such as RUBS, due to a huge build up of humidity. How often do you look at the boxes and see them all steamed up? That in it's self will lead to the snake within becoming ill after some time, and if that snake causes the box to be steamed up on a regular basis, then that snake is not suitable for housing in a plastic container of any sort, unless it is a very well ventilated plastic viv. Even then you would need to make sure.

As for glass vivs that are top opening, well if you refer to the fish tank type then again very unsuitable for snakes, and your snake may survive the first few years, but time will usually see that snake become ill due to the fact that it spends most of it's time at the bottom of the tank, where all the trapped scale air will have accumulated. 

There is also the fact that the way some people keep their boxes exposes the snake within to all around it, which is very unfair on the snake. Tucked away in a racking system also has it's fault if the box is enclosed as you can't see if the snake is distressed in any way as you could via a viv. 

Mo.


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## fishboy

Maureen Collinson said:


> Now whilst the above be true, it does change as far as suitability goes when we decide to house snakes within.
> 
> I wonder just how long any of you have had these RUBS for, including those of you that have them in a racking system, or similar type boxes. These types of boxes are not brilliant when it comes to withstanding heat, and the use of heat does cause them to become brittle and break into many itty bitty pieces, so just hope that you don't have it happen when you are not around as you could have some escapees to deal with. I also hope you have back up boxes for the same reason. Apart from that, the use of any lighting also causes the boxes to become brittle in a very short time of use, so far from ideal again.
> 
> Many snakes succumb to nasty RI infections when they are housed in plastic boxes such as RUBS, due to a huge build up of humidity. How often do you look at the boxes and see them all steamed up? That in it's self will lead to the snake within becoming ill after some time, and if that snake causes the box to be steamed up on a regular basis, then that snake is not suitable for housing in a plastic container of any sort, unless it is a very well ventilated plastic viv. Even then you would need to make sure.
> 
> As for glass vivs that are top opening, well if you refer to the fish tank type then again very unsuitable for snakes, and your snake may survive the first few years, but time will usually see that snake become ill due to the fact that it spends most of it's time at the bottom of the tank, where all the trapped scale air will have accumulated.
> 
> There is also the fact that the way some people keep their boxes exposes the snake within to all around it, which is very unfair on the snake. Tucked away in a racking system also has it's fault if the box is enclosed as you can't see if the snake is distressed in any way as you could via a viv.
> 
> Mo.


the things you mention; build up off excessive humidity/the box coming to the end of it's useable life and becoming brittle and breaking are things that would happen with a viv if not enough vents were put in or if it was used for too humid and environment and not sealed properly - it would fall apart. If you don't put enough ventilation in a RUB it will steam up. If you allow it to become so old and brittle it falls to pieces, then yes they will be unsuitable. this isn't a RUB specific problem, it is a problem with the design/adaption of the enclosure by the keeper. I still fail to see the difference between an appropriately sized and designed vivarium for a royal python and a similarly sized and modified RUB.

UV does indeed degrade plastic and cause it to become brittle and this will happen over quite a short space of time. maybe 2 years. however, most people who use RUBs do not use lighting with them and use them for smaller species which do not require uv. the boxes will be tucked away from exposure to UV in shelves and racking systems and are likely to last considerably longer. And when they do start to degrade, they are only a tenner or so to replace.........:2thumb:

i got annoyed watching my royal being stressed through the front of a viv so in a tub it went and now we look at each other through the opaque front of it's tub in a rack. it's happy. it told me so


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## essexchondro

RUB's have a working temperature range of -15C up to 80C. As long as they don't come into direct contact with a ceramic bulb and are heated using a thermostat then I can't see how they are inadequate from a "temperature handling perspective" for housing reptiles.


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## htf666

Totally agree with Essexchondro.Rubs are more than suitable for a large range of reps.The point about them steaming up baffles me as I have bought spare lids for mine.Some with no holes in for Rainbow boa hatchlings and some with 4mm holes for hatchling kings and rats.Humidity control in a nutshell.Try doing that with a viv.I would go as far as to say that for hatchlings and smaller snakes you cannot compare rubs to vivs...they are far superior.Harry


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## Maureen Collinson

Hi. 

Just popped in to say I will answer you fishboy, Essexchondro and Harry, but on my way back out now, and out for the next couple of days too, so will reply as soon as I can snatch some free time. I do have quite a few answers too.

Mo.


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## Maureen Collinson

essexchondro said:


> RUB's have a working temperature range of -15C up to 80C. As long as they don't come into direct contact with a ceramic bulb and are heated using a thermostat then I can't see how they are inadequate from a "temperature handling perspective" for housing reptiles.


Hi Essexchrondro. 

Is the above quote from your own testing? as after my boxes broke into a trillion little pieces, I contacted the company that makes the boxes, and they told me they had no idea what temps these boxes could cope with, and that they are not made with heat in mind as such. I rang again today, and was still told much the same.

Thanks,

Mo.


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## cbmark

Maureen Collinson said:


> Hi Essexchrondro.
> 
> Is the above quote from your own testing? as after my boxes broke into a trillion little pieces, I contacted the company that makes the boxes, and they told me they had no idea what temps these boxes could cope with, and that they are not made with heat in mind as such. I rang again today, and was still told much the same.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mo.


how did yours break? what heating and temp was you running rather concerning to hear if im honest :blush:


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## ratboy

They claim the quoted temperatures on their website Mo...

Really Useful Products Ltd - Box Details


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## essexchondro

> Hi Essexchrondro.
> 
> Is the above quote from your own testing? as after my boxes broke into a trillion little pieces, I contacted the company that makes the boxes, and they told me they had no idea what temps these boxes could cope with, and that they are not made with heat in mind as such. I rang again today, and was still told much the same.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mo.


I lifted that info straight from their website. I must admit that I've never tested it myself but I imagine they must have done to be able to make such a claim about their product.

Stuart


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## ratboy

I have never really got to grips with what a "Working temperature" for materials actually means though.

If RUB's have one of -15C to 80C which must presumably have been tested as Stuart says... what does it mean ?

Does it melt at 80C or give off fumes or crack or become dangerous ? Obviously it fails to 'work' in some way.

Also how are these tests done ? Is the whole box uniformly frozen and heated when being tested ? Is the test valid for a localised hot spot as is common in reptile keeping ? Is it just calculated from the materials used ? obviously they do not test every box 

Genuine question... maybe someone involved in manufacture of something can shed some light ?


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## essexchondro

> I have never really got to grips with what a "Working temperature" for materials actually means though.
> 
> If RUB's have one of -15C to 80C which must presumably have been tested as Stuart says... what does it mean ?
> 
> Does it melt at 80C or give off fumes or crack or become dangerous ? Obviously it fails to 'work' in some way.
> 
> Also how are these tests done ? Is the whole box uniformly frozen and heated when being tested ? Is the test valid for a localised hot spot as is common in reptile keeping ? Is it just calculated from the materials used ? obviously they do not test every box
> 
> Genuine question... maybe someone involved in manufacture of something can shed some light ?


I've no idea of the answers to any of those questions, but I bet there are standardised tests that they are required to run to comply with health and safety requirements etc. I think the main point to take from this is that, with a workable temp range of -15C to 80C, RUB's should be performing fine within the temp range that we're using them (20-35C or there abouts).


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## fishboy

i would assume 80c would be the temperature the plastic starts to soften, warp and then melt, and at below -15 it would become to brittle to remain usefulway above and below usual rep keeping temperatures : victory:


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## ratboy

fishboy said:


> i would assume 80c would be the temperature the plastic starts to soften, warp and then melt, and at below -15 it would become to brittle to remain usefulway above and below usual rep keeping temperatures : victory:


Yep... I would assume the same. Would be very interesting if someone had an old knackered one and put it under a small heat source to see what happened though.

I am surprised in this 'safety first - litigation later' day and age that companies are not required to state how they test these things though. Then we would not need to assume anything.

Sorry... this has taken the thread way off at a tangent and is certainly not only applicable to RUB's


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## htf666

As a temperature of 80c would kill anything near it does seem pointless to use this as an example of why a rub is unsuitable.It's like saying a chipboard viv will break if you jump up and down on it.I would think that 99% of rub's are heated with mats only and 100% of them have never had a problem.The predjudice shown between a viv and a rub is unbelievable.Both can be used wrongly but used correctly rubs are the best thing to happen in years.(But not for everything).Harry


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## ratboy

htf666 said:


> As a temperature of 80c would kill anything near it does seem pointless to use this as an example of why a rub is unsuitable.


Where did that happen ?


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## htf666

As far as I know it has never happened.My point was that this figure is being quoted as a reason for not using rub's.It's completely immaterial from a reptile keeping point of view and seems to me to be an attempt to show these boxes in a bad light.Harry


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## essexchondro

> Where did that happen ?


Mo suggested that RUB's have a problem withstanding heat and implied that as a result RUB's weren't great for housing reptiles. The problem with that argument, of course, is that the heat "problem" only arises at temperatures well outside of the range at which reptiles are kept...so for keeping reptiles its not really a problem at all...


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## ratboy

Actually, if you read back Harry you will see that Mo had one that broke into many tiny pieces which I doubt was up anywhere near 80C... and in a telephone conversation with the manufacturers they stated that they knew nothing about temperature ranges... but the website claims the -15C - 80C range.

There seems to be quite a contradiction from the company and the website, which I think is the point in question, but I don't think anyone has said that they are unsafe for reptiles if they can indeed withstand 80C.


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## htf666

Plus the fact that no one else has had a box break up to my knowledge adds to the confusion.I must have 50 or more in use as homes or hides and I don't have a problem.Harry


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## ratboy

I've never had anything break or get damaged by heating and hope I never do.

But I have heard of near fires from faulty heat mats, glass vivariums cracking and breaking on heat mats, thermostats failing for ceramics and snakes getting severe burns from faulty heating ... which means in some circumstances, what gets heated must reach some pretty high temperatures when things go wrong ?


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## htf666

Yes,the point being that nothing is safe at these temps so singling out rub's seems unfair.The original inference was that the boxes can suddenly fall apart and allow the occupants to escape which I felt bordered on scaremongering.If we compare like for like then we cannot say that rub's/vivs are unsuitable.They both have their strengths and weaknesses but can do a fine job used correctly.Harry


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## blackdragon

i think the problem with glass tanks breaking and things catching fire ect is more to do with one of the bad sides of heat mats not the viv or tub the snake is in, all heat sources have there good points and bad points, and think to bring that up is side tracking from the point of if rubs are good or bad housing


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## Maureen Collinson

Hi All. 

I can't believe just how hectic life is at present, and there was me thinking retirement brought with it some relaxation. LOL

Okay......I see we are still addressing the first paragraph of my post regarding the reasons against having a RUB, so this thread could be going for some time yet. The second paragraph could be even more interesting and provoking than this first one, we shall see. 

Back to the subject in hand, I was all ready to accept the answer given to me by you Stuart, and Steve, but then Harry chipped in and got me to thinking this point over even more, which then resulting in my emailing the Really useful box Company, as well as phoning again. Now as a result of this, I have again been told that the boxes don't come with a guarantee from them with regards to direct heating and lighting on their boxes 24/7 even though the maximum heat required for reptiles is below the quote on their web site, and that the boxes are not made with reptiles in mind, or for heating in that way 24/7. I was left then with the thoughts that okay, I could have had a faulty batch at the time. It happens, nothing new there, and these boxes could be more than capable of withstanding the form of heat that would be required over a good period of time, but being how I am with my reptiles, I need to know that nothing dreadful in the way of a melt down at some stage won't result in fumes of a sort that could kill, or boxes that break without some sort of visual warning first, so I say this to the helpful as she can be person at the end of the telephone at the RUB Company, and then am advised to contact www. pro-racks.com, which have an email addy and a mobile phone no only, and am warned that John at Pro-racks is very hard to get hold of, but he should have the answers I am looking for as they buy loads of the RUBS for reptile use, so now I am wondering if Pro-racks are offering a written guarantee that this boxes are safe that the temps required for reptiles. Anyone here brought the Pro-rack systems with the RUBS provided and used over a couple of years?

Essexchondro/Stuart, I am being led to believe you are connected with Pro-racks, is that in any way correct please? as if not then I will need to contact them direct instead. I confess I am concerned now that the RUB company will offer no written guarantee for the way us herpers use their boxes.

I knew there would be a come back, but never thought it would now go down this avenue. I wonder if Pro-rack will happily offer a written guarantee on the boxes they sell with regards to the heating, and how long in fact they have had some in use. I know the company is about 8 years running now, but not how long they have been using the RUBS for?

Mo. 

PS Harry, thought you were of the age where you would have been using the 'Rubber Maid' boxes that the x big breeders used to import from the States, and which are still in use today?

Another thought now crosses my mind, if Pro-racks are buying as a Company that deals direct with buyers wanting the boxes for keeping their reptiles in, then how come they have not asked for the design they use to be made in a way that avoids the dreadful pit fall just under the lid, that has been the death of some poor snakes, or why are they not adapting the boxes they receive to make them safe before selling knowing they are for reptiles?

I'll stop as I am in overdrive at present, and go and pester Hubby instead. LOL


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## blackdragon

Maureen Collinson said:


> the dreadful pit fall just under the lid, that has been the death of some poor snakes,


a bit of hard cardbord cut to the size of the lid will cure that pitfall


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## Maureen Collinson

You miss the point Blackdragon. 

Snakes are being killed due to the shape of the lids of the RUBS. You know how to fix it, so do I but the fact that *snakes are dying* means that there are others who don't, and as a seller of such equipment to people for the use of reptles, I would have thought it good company policy, and a wise move for the *welfare of the snakes* to provide a 'safe as can be box' for them, even if it means adapting them first before sale, or give out a written warning of the risks on their web site and with a receipt to make people aware, and show how to fix the problem to avoid it being one, and thus remaining a risk of death to snakes.

Mo.


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## blackdragon

i get what your saying, but wanted to post how to fix the problem as people thinking of using rubs may well read this thread and if it helps some one then was worth it.
wasnt trying to take away from what you was saying tho


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## essexchondro

> Hi All.
> 
> I can't believe just how hectic life is at present, and there was me thinking retirement brought with it some relaxation. LOL
> 
> Okay......I see we are still addressing the first paragraph of my post regarding the reasons against having a RUB, so this thread could be going for some time yet. The second paragraph could be even more interesting and provoking than this first one, we shall see.
> 
> Back to the subject in hand, I was all ready to accept the answer given to me by you Stuart, and Steve, but then Harry chipped in and got me to thinking this point over even more, which then resulting in my emailing the Really useful box Company, as well as phoning again. Now as a result of this, I have again been told that the boxes don't come with a guarantee from them with regards to direct heating and lighting on their boxes 24/7 even though the maximum heat required for reptiles is below the quote on their web site, and that the boxes are not made with reptiles in mind, or for heating in that way 24/7. I was left then with the thoughts that okay, I could have had a faulty batch at the time. It happens, nothing new there, and these boxes could be more than capable of withstanding the form of heat that would be required over a good period of time, but being how I am with my reptiles, I need to know that nothing dreadful in the way of a melt down at some stage won't result in fumes of a sort that could kill, or boxes that break without some sort of visual warning first, so I say this to the helpful as she can be person at the end of the telephone at the RUB Company, and then am advised to contact www. pro-racks.com, which have an email addy and a mobile phone no only, and am warned that John at Pro-racks is very hard to get hold of, but he should have the answers I am looking for as they buy loads of the RUBS for reptile use, so now I am wondering if Pro-racks are offering a written guarantee that this boxes are safe that the temps required for reptiles. Anyone here brought the Pro-rack systems with the RUBS provided and used over a couple of years?


 
I'm not surprised by any of that Mo. Why would the box company offer a guarantee on this matter when they haven't designed their boxes to be used in the way in which we're using them (it would seem more logical for wooden vivs to come with a "fire retardant" guarantee, but to the best of my knowledge they don't!).

As far as I know, the pro-racks units are designed to be used with contico's, not RUB's, so I'm not sure how much help John will be able to give you.

I still believe that there is no way in which a plastic box can melt, give off toxic fumes etc etc at 30-35C...and if you're heating the box correctly then the box should not ever become any hotter than that; certainly not anywhere near 80C. Think of it this way, in a good British summer we get temperatures in the 30-35C range. Would the RUB company be able to sell these boxes if they could melt or give off toxic fumes in offices and homes up and down the country should we get a very warm day?



> Essexchondro/Stuart, I am being led to believe you are connected with Pro-racks, is that in any way correct please? as if not then I will need to contact them direct instead. I confess I am concerned now that the RUB company will offer no written guarantee for the way us herpers use their boxes.
> 
> I knew there would be a come back, but never thought it would now go down this avenue. I wonder if Pro-rack will happily offer a written guarantee on the boxes they sell with regards to the heating, and how long in fact they have had some in use. I know the company is about 8 years running now, but not how long they have been using the RUBS for?
> 
> Mo.


I know John of pro-racks but am not connected with John or pro-racks in any way professionally...and like I said, as far as I'm aware pro -racks do not make a model designed for use with RUB's so I don't think he'll be able to give you any answers. 


Stuart


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## essexchondro

> Actually, if you read back Harry you will see that Mo had one that broke into many tiny pieces which I doubt was up anywhere near 80C... and in a telephone conversation with the manufacturers they stated that they knew nothing about temperature ranges... but the website claims the -15C - 80C range.
> 
> There seems to be quite a contradiction from the company and the website, which I think is the point in question, but I don't think anyone has said that they are unsafe for reptiles if they can indeed withstand 80C.


It could well be the case, then, that this malfunction was nothing to do with a problem of withstanding temperatures. It could have been something else entirely...but was just attributed to an inability to handle heat (maybe the tub had been dropped by a member of staff in their warehouse or on delivery to the shop, for example. This might not have caused any visible damage but could have weakened it). 

The contradictions are probably due to a combination of poor training of staff and the fact that its probably a very unusual question for them to get asked by a member of the public. I'm pretty sure, though, that they wouldn't be able to claim a working temperature range of -15C-80C if this hadn't been tested/proven in some way.


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## Maureen Collinson

blackdragon said:


> i get what your saying, but wanted to post how to fix the problem as people thinking of using rubs may well read this thread and if it helps some one then was worth it.
> wasnt trying to take away from what you was saying tho


I see what you mean blackdragon, and you do have a very valid important point to make which I am in full agreement with. Nice one. 

Mo.


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## Maureen Collinson

essexchondro said:


> I'm not surprised by any of that Mo. Why would the box company offer a guarantee on this matter when they haven't designed their boxes to be used in the way in which we're using them (it would seem more logical for wooden vivs to come with a "fire retardant" guarantee, but to the best of my knowledge they don't!).
> 
> Thank you Stuart for coming back so quickly. Really appreciated.  Whilst I accept and agree here, it still does not help with regards to an answer though.
> 
> Re the 'fire retardant' comment, I do believe that Melamine smolders rather than catches fire, and that some rulings are in place re the wood it's self. Anyone?
> 
> As far as I know, the pro-racks units are designed to be used with contico's, not RUB's, so I'm not sure how much help John will be able to give you.
> 
> I hear you, and guess I will need to ask John direct, as if the info is incorrect then John needs to contact the Really Usual Company pronto, as they gave me the info direct, and assured me John was the Man to answer the question as he buys many boxes direct from them. If John is using the boxes for personal use, then that could beg the question, why them and not the Contico's that he sells to others.
> 
> I still believe that there is no way in which a plastic box can melt, give off toxic fumes etc etc at 30-35C...and if you're heating the box correctly then the box should not ever become any hotter than that; certainly not anywhere near 80C. Think of it this way, in a good British summer we get temperatures in the 30-35C range. Would the RUB company be able to sell these boxes if they could melt or give off toxic fumes in offices and homes up and down the country should we get a very warm day?
> 
> I hear you Stuart, but that is not a constant temp year in and out, nor 24/7, nor in the direct way like the use of a heat mat. It it were, we would have many very sick or dead reptiles as there's no way many could stand those heats continuously surely?
> 
> 
> 
> I know John of pro-racks but am not connected with John or pro-racks in any way professionally...and like I said, as far as I'm aware pro -racks do not make a model designed for use with RUB's so I don't think he'll be able to give you any answers.
> 
> 
> Stuart



Thank you for putting the record straight there Stuart, and I hope that those of the belief that you are, will read here, and know they have it all wrong, so should correct things as they go along, sooner rather than later if possible. 

Re the use of the RUBS, I can only repeat what I have already said above, which came directly from a RUB representative.

Mo.


----------



## Maureen Collinson

essexchondro said:


> It could well be the case, then, that this malfunction was nothing to do with a problem of withstanding temperatures. It could have been something else entirely...but was just attributed to an inability to handle heat (maybe the tub had been dropped by a member of staff in their warehouse or on delivery to the shop, for example. This might not have caused any visible damage but could have weakened it).
> 
> It happened with a few that were all brought at the same time, and at the same place Stuart, but it is feasible that some unseen damaged was caused before I brought them. This I whole heartily agree with.
> 
> I have racks still in use here as said before, but these contain boxes that came from the States, and were used by big time breeders of yesterday such as Luke Yoman, Ray Hine and Jon Coote. Now these do seem to stand the test of time. I have had mine since 1990, and they are mostly still like new. The only ones to have gone brittle are ones that had UV somewhere nearby.
> 
> The contradictions are probably due to a combination of poor training of staff and the fact that its probably a very unusual question for them to get asked by a member of the public. I'm pretty sure, though, that they wouldn't be able to claim a working temperature range of -15C-80C if this hadn't been tested/proven in some way.


Unusual question maybe Stuart, but when they can't even say the exact method the boxes are put through to test the heat, then that is very bad, and nothing to do with the use of them, just a question in connection with the product that they are there to sell.

Also they were well aware of Pro-Racks and what they are using the boxes for, so I would have thought they would be interested enough to check it out. The Lady did not come over as surprised in any way, and was in fact fully aware then that the boxes are used daily for keeping reptiles in, so not so unusual. 

Mo.


----------



## essexchondro

But all this begs the question, is there an actual problem with RUB's when it comes to withstanding heat within the reptile keeping range, then? The only "evidence" that they're poor at handling heat is that a very small number of them have cracked and broken, *but since this damage has occurred well within the stated working temperature range of RUB's it would seem more likely that the damage is not temperature related at all...and you have to ask the question, then, why would we assume it was temp. related in the first instance?* (because we're actively looking for reasons to knock RUB's, perhaps?)

Either the damage occurred within the working temperature range, in which case the damage is either caused by something other than temperature or the RUB companies temperature claims are fraudulent (which in todays world of laws and regulations I find unlikely), or the damage occured outside of the RUB's working temperature range, in which case the temps being applied to the box were well outside of the range needed to keep reptiles happy, anyway.

Either way RUB's don't seem to have a temp problem with respect to reptile keeping.


----------



## Fixx

Maureen Collinson said:


> Re the 'fire retardant' comment, I do believe that Melamine smolders rather than catches fire, and that some rulings are in place re the wood it's self. Anyone?
> 
> Mo.


Having friends that work in a chipboard factory and having worked there myself briefly, the chemicals that bind the wood chip and are used as fire retardants are not pleasant and include formaldehyde, and along with the medical issues associated with melamine at the moment re: Chinese baby milk, etc. whether the viv smolders or catches fire any animal inside it is in for a bad time.


----------



## Maureen Collinson

essexchondro said:


> But all this begs the question, is there an actual problem with RUB's when it comes to withstanding heat within the reptile keeping range, then?
> 
> If I could answer that question Stuart, I would not be inquiring now would I LOL, but what I do know is that you have *not* come back with the fact that they are without any doubt heat proof when the way that they are heated up for reptiles is applied.
> 
> The only "evidence" that they're poor at handling heat is that a very small number of them have cracked and broken, *but since this damage has occurred well within the stated working temperature range of RUB's it would seem more likely that the damage is not temperature related at all...and you have to ask the question, then, why would we assume it was temp. related in the first instance?*
> 
> Thats old ground Stuart. I already conceded to what you suggested as the reason for mine breaking, and gave the reason why I am now pursuing the matter further in an earlier post.
> 
> (because we're actively looking for reasons to knock RUB's, perhaps?)
> 
> Does that question deserve an answer, I ask myself? along with, I can understand my being on here on a Friday night, but hey, thought you would have more interesting things to do, then banter with me. Should I be flattered? LOL
> 
> Either the damage occurred within the working temperature range, in which case the damage is either caused by something other than temperature or the RUB companies temperature claims are fraudulent (which in todays world of laws and regulations I find unlikely), or the damage occured outside of the RUB's working temperature range, in which case the temps being applied to the box were well outside of the range needed to keep reptiles happy, anyway.
> 
> Inside of the temperature range Stuart. As for the Company giving fraudulent claims Stuart. No I don't believe so, *but* they *won't commit* to whether or not the box will withstand a more direct heat 24/7 such as a heat mat, so now being a woman that's like a dog with a bone, i have the need to find out somehow if they can, and would expect if a company *is* selling these boxes for the use of reptiles, that they should be able to back that claim for sure in the interests of the animals being placed within, that have no say or choice them selves in the matter.
> 
> Either way RUB's don't seem to have a temp problem with respect to reptile keeping.



I note the word *seem *there Stuart, which makes a loud statement from your corner, that no matter how much you debate this with me, you do not have concrete proof that they will be okay, hence the non-committal on your part.

Mo.


----------



## essexchondro

> Having friends that work in a chipboard factory and having worked there myself briefly, the chemicals that bind the wood chip and are used as fire retardants are not pleasant and include formaldehyde, and along with the medical issues associated with melamine at the moment re: Chinese baby milk, etc. whether the viv smolders or catches fire any animal inside it is in for a bad time.


Very interesting info there!

I have to say, the more I read this thread the more it seems that the criticisms that are being made of RUB's are really just criticisms of bad husbandry practise and do not seem to indicate any inherent and absolute inferiority in RUB's at all. 

So far we've talked about stimulation, ventilation, heating (and a few other issues that I can't recall of the top of my head) and in all of these areas the "problem" highlighted is not really the RUB itself, its how a RUB could be used....and as has already been said; both RUB's and vivs can be used incorrectly and if that's the case animals can suffer as a result.


----------



## Maureen Collinson

Fixx said:


> Having friends that work in a chipboard factory and having worked there myself briefly, the chemicals that bind the wood chip and are used as fire retardants are not pleasant and include formaldehyde, and along with the medical issues associated with melamine at the moment re: Chinese baby milk, etc. whether the viv smolders or catches fire any animal inside it is in for a bad time.


Fixx,

Thank you for your post which is of great interest to me, so if I ask you really nicely, would you consider starting a thread on it, and given more details please. 

Mo. 

PS Nothing to do with the thread, but I need to say before it slips my mind. A friend had her skunks die due to giving them some avocado fruit to eat. it's highly toxic, just in case you are unaware.


----------



## Maureen Collinson

essexchondro said:


> Very interesting info there!
> 
> I have to say, the more I read this thread the more it seems that the criticisms that are being made of RUB's are really just criticisms of bad husbandry practise and do not seem to indicate any inherent and absolute inferiority in RUB's at all.
> 
> So far we've talked about stimulation, ventilation, heating (and a few other issues that I can't recall of the top of my head) and in all of these areas the "problem" highlighted is not really the RUB itself, its how a RUB could be used....and as has already been said; both RUB's and vivs can be used incorrectly and if that's the case animals can suffer as a result.


I was almost ready to give you an award there Stuart for your summing up of the situation here, but perhaps not yet, as there is more to cover now due to recent findings. 

I will ask you a question though that I don't require an answer to. 
With forums being the way they are, and with many people skim reading, or not reading at all, how best could one draw their attention to a vital 'animal welfare' problem that often goes unheeded? I know full well you can answer me, so please don't. LOL

Mo.


----------



## essexchondro

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *essexchondro*
> _But all this begs the question, is there an actual problem with RUB's when it comes to withstanding heat within the reptile keeping range, then?
> 
> If I could answer that question Stuart, I would not be inquiring now would I LOL, but what I do know is that you have *not* come back with the fact that they are without any doubt heat proof when the way that they are heated up for reptiles is applied.
> 
> The only "evidence" that they're poor at handling heat is that a very small number of them have cracked and broken, *but since this damage has occurred well within the stated working temperature range of RUB's it would seem more likely that the damage is not temperature related at all...and you have to ask the question, then, why would we assume it was temp. related in the first instance?*
> 
> Thats old ground Stuart. I already conceded to what you suggested as the reason for mine breaking, and gave the reason why I am now pursuing the matter further in an earlier post.
> 
> (because we're actively looking for reasons to knock RUB's, perhaps?)
> 
> Does that question deserve an answer, I ask myself? along with, I can understand my being on here on a Friday night, but hey, thought you would have more interesting things to do, then banter with me. Should I be flattered? LOL
> 
> Either the damage occurred within the working temperature range, in which case the damage is either caused by something other than temperature or the RUB companies temperature claims are fraudulent (which in todays world of laws and regulations I find unlikely), or the damage occured outside of the RUB's working temperature range, in which case the temps being applied to the box were well outside of the range needed to keep reptiles happy, anyway.
> 
> Inside of the temperature range Stuart. As for the Company giving fraudulent claims Stuart. No I don't believe so, *but* they *won't commit* to whether or not the box will withstand a more direct heat 24/7 such as a heat mat, so now being a woman that's like a dog with a bone, i have the need to find out somehow if they can, and would expect if a company *is* selling these boxes for the use of reptiles, that they should be able to back that claim for sure in the interests of the animals being placed within, that have no say or choice them selves in the matter.
> 
> Either way RUB's don't seem to have a temp problem with respect to reptile keeping._
> 
> 
> I note the word *seem *there Stuart, which makes a loud statement from your corner, that no matter how much you debate this with me, you do not have concrete proof that they will be okay, hence the non-committal on your part.
> 
> Mo.


Of course I don't have concrete proof that they'll be OK Mo...I don't have concrete proof that any of the equipment I use (designed for reptiles or not) will be OK. All I know is that I've seen far more posts about thermostats failing and heatmats going wrong than I have about RUB's melting etc etc (I'd expect to see more posts on melting RUB's considering the number being used by keepers).

RUB's are not a product designed for use with reptiles and I don't believe that the company is selling them for use with reptiles; *people buy them* for reptile use but I do not believe that the RUB company have ever officially stated that they are suitable for housing reptiles and to the best of my knowledge they have never marketed them to the reptile community. Because of that I don't think they will ever offer any type of guarantee for their use with reptiles (I can bang a nail into a piece of wood with a spanner, but would the spanner company offer me the same guarantees that I'd get from the hammer company?)

This temperature issue just doesn't seem to exist...except in the instances where questions are asked about it; thereby creating the very issue in the first place.


----------



## essexchondro

> I was almost ready to give you an award there Stuart for your summing up of the situation here, but perhaps not yet, as there is more to cover now due to recent findings.
> 
> I will ask you a question though that I don't require an answer to.
> With forums being the way they are, and with many people skim reading, or not reading at all, how best could one draw their attention to a vital 'animal welfare' problem that often goes unheeded? I know full well you can answer me, so please don't. LOL
> 
> Mo.


We should draw attention to animal welfare issues by discussing those issues in the context of *good husbandry practices* and how these enable us, as keepers, to meet the needs of the animals we're keeping. I don't believe we should be discussing animal welfare issues in the context of "this type of enclosure is absolutely right and this type of enclosure is absolutely wrong"...because such an over-simplified "black and white" analysis is often rooted in an _a priori_ political/ethical/moral doctrine rather than actual facts and evidence.


----------



## Maureen Collinson

essexchondro said:


> We should draw attention to animal welfare issues by discussing those issues in the context of *good husbandry practices* and how these enable us, as keepers, to meet the needs of the animals we're keeping. I don't believe we should be discussing animal welfare issues in the context of "this type of enclosure is absolutely right and this type of enclosure is absolutely wrong"...because such an over-simplified "black and white" analysis is often rooted in an _a priori_ political/ethical/moral doctrine rather than actual facts and evidence.


True again Stuart, but then hardly anyone takes notice do they? The forums prove that over and over. Start clashing with someone and watch the viewings go up, and people taking note of all that is said. See people post that rarely bother, just to have a dig, or for the sheer fun of it, and then the word spreads to go and look at so and so thread, and we then have people taking notice at last, and perhaps putting more thought into what is involved. I spent many years trying the other way and have watched many also try and give up, and leave the forums altogether, and know that things don't get through as they should do. I love reptiles so much, and will therefore continue to resort to all means available to get something across. Love or hate me, it makes no difference to me. As long as those closest to me accept what I do, then I will continue.

This subject is on RUBS, but I would question other housing for the reptiles as well. A housing, taking all of the safety issues into consideration is way overdue, and in this way I believe the hobby has slipped backwards, rather than progressed and is very bad, considering the market, and how many reptiles are kept, there is a huge opening for someone with enough cash, that is willing to draw on many long term keepers for advise, and listen to the pit falls they have had along the way, and the good pointers too.

Hopefully by now you will have had a break, and something to drink, as your last post left me with a strong feeling that you were getting rather frustrated.

Mo.


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## essexchondro

> True again Stuart, but then hardly anyone takes notice do they? The forums prove that over and over. Start clashing with someone and watch the viewings go up, and people taking note of all that is said. See people post that rarely bother, just to have a dig, or for the sheer fun of it, and then the word spreads to go and look at so and so thread, and we then have people taking notice at last, and perhaps putting more thought into what is involved. I spent many years trying the other way and have watched many also try and give up, and leave the forums altogether, and know that things don't get through as they should do. I love reptiles so much, and will therefore continue to resort to all means available to get something across. Love or hate me, it makes no difference to me. As long as those closest to me accept what I do, then I will continue.


I see you point Mo; dramatic statements clearly get more notice than balanced and detailed reasoning...but at the same time, if those dramatic statements are "questionable", then what exactly is the value of the message given out? If we adopt the approach of slating a product simply to get others to jump to its defence with reasoned argument (as I like to think I've done in this thread) then that will probably work to some degree...but there will also be a lot of people that just see the slating and don't stick around for the defence. They then go off with a warped view of a product or method of doing something...and that probably doesn't help them, their animals, or the general advancement of our hobby.



> This subject is on RUBS, but I would question other housing for the reptiles as well. A housing, taking all of the safety issues into consideration is way overdue, and in this way I believe the hobby has slipped backwards, rather than progressed and is very bad, considering the market, and how many reptiles are kept, there is a huge opening for someone with enough cash, that is willing to draw on many long term keepers for advise, and listen to the pit falls they have had along the way, and the good pointers too.


I don't think there's such a thing as the perfect reptile house/housing. I'm a member of a specialist green tree python forum and even keepers of that species, which has quite specific care requirements, can't agree on what's best for our animals in terms of housing...so we've got no chance of coming up with a one-size-fits-all solution on a generalist forum like this one. The key thing, I believe, is to not talk in terms of _absolutes_, but rather to recognise that housing is _a means to an end_; its a medium through which we can (or can't) practice good husbandry to meet our animals' needs. 



> Hopefully by now you will have had a break, and something to drink, as your last post left me with a strong feeling that you were getting rather frustrated.
> 
> Mo.


I'm on my second bottle of diet Pepsi already, I'm having a blast! :lol2:


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## htf666

Well I have learned one or two things tonight.Stuart is a pepsi addict like me.(I am down to 2ltrs a day). Pepsi max of course.How did Mo know I was an old git? Did I slip up and mention Agincourt? Back on track though, I once had a few e-mail conversations with a guy at the rub co. on the subject of larger boxes on the lines of 2foot cubes.(thats 600mm cubes to anyone not approaching death).His answer was to quote me the cost of tooling up for this which was in the region of many thousands of pounds. They did make a new largest size which is 132 litres I think off the top of my head. Anyway it's big.As for reptile keepers we don't buy anything like the quantities needed to have a say so in what they manufacture. Likewise the max temp problem. There is no way they will say their boxes are suitable for our needs as they are probably totally unfamiliar with our requirements. And most certainly if they were foolish enough to state that they were suitable someone would soon be attempting a lawsuit in order to diddle them out of a few bob.One possibility sprang to mind was how hot do you wash your boxes in.This is the only way I could think of getting near to the max temps quoted.Is Mo that posh she is doing them in a dishwasher?Harry


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## Moshpitviper

I'd like to point out at this point that there are damn near perfect enclosures for most reptiles. for chams you have terry thatchers wonderful caging systems, for most others there are vision, herptek, rhino, animal plastics etc. trouble is these are prohibitively expensive to most keepers and few are willing to part with the expense despite the many benefits plastic vivaria offer. The floorspace of the 2ft vision and herptek cage is much the same as the 33L RUB which i use for much smaller things like hognoses and most juvenile snakes.

We mustn't question the the RUB as a suitable container for reptiles, because in making it habitable we are to drill or solder several airholes in them, thus affecting the structural integrity of the box. i know that eurorep are now using RUB's as opposed to the old Contico style boxes, of course i dont know why they made this change. but backto my original point.... why should the RUB colmpany run tests on thermal abilities of their products if we are to 'deface' them in order to make them habitable. just because we use them for small animal habitats, does not mean the company has to acknowledge this or run any tests regarding acceptable temperature parameters of their products.

am i waffling again? 

sorry :lol2:


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## Maureen Collinson

Any jog of memory here Harry? There is a video clip there too if you wish to click on it. If no, I will give you another good clue as to how I know you are an old git like me. LOL

Mo. 

PS please note the wooden rack, or at least part of it behind my head showing that I do use plastic boxes here when required. 

Brilliant Creatures


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## Maureen Collinson

Agincourt was fought on a Friday as well Harry, and they were up to their knees in mud. The English won too, even though the odds could have been stacked against them. Mud is good for more reasons than just slinging it Harry. LOL 

Mo.


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## htf666

Maureen Collinson said:


> Any jog of memory here Harry? There is a video clip there too if you wish to click on it. If no, I will give you another good clue as to how I know you are an old git like me. LOL
> 
> Mo.
> 
> PS please note the wooden rack, or at least part of it behind my head showing that I do use plastic boxes here when required.
> 
> Brilliant Creatures


Nope. You have lost me.Harry


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## htf666

Whilst we are on the subject of Visions and Herpteks am I the only one who does not like Herpteks? I find the colour horrible and they are a lot thinner than the Visions. I have Visions only now, (or I will have when I get the new room done). You are right about the price though.I have just paid for the last lot I bought and I have bought another 5. The man from Visa is coming this week to pull my arms and legs off. Back to the baked bean diet.How do you find the lids on the larger rub's? I only use 3,5 and 9 for hatchlings and I got an 18 ltr one to soak snakes that were having trouble shedding.I noticed that the lid flexed a lot more in the middle than the smaller boxes and decided that smaller headed snakes could be at risk of getting trapped.I suppose a rack situation would be best to stop the lid lifting.Harry.


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## Maureen Collinson

htf666 said:


> Nope. You have lost me.Harry


Do you remember selling me this little lass Harry, some years back now?

Brilliant Creatures


----------



## Maureen Collinson

Moshpitviper said:


> I'd like to point out at this point that there are damn near perfect enclosures for most reptiles. for chams you have terry thatchers wonderful caging systems, for most others there are vision, herptek, rhino, animal plastics etc. trouble is these are prohibitively expensive to most keepers and few are willing to part with the expense despite the many benefits plastic vivaria offer. The floorspace of the 2ft vision and herptek cage is much the same as the 33L RUB which i use for much smaller things like hognoses and most juvenile snakes.
> 
> We mustn't question the the RUB as a suitable container for reptiles, because in making it habitable we are to drill or solder several airholes in them, thus affecting the structural integrity of the box. i know that eurorep are now using RUB's as opposed to the old Contico style boxes, of course i dont know why they made this change. but backto my original point.... why should the RUB colmpany run tests on thermal abilities of their products if we are to 'deface' them in order to make them habitable. just because we use them for small animal habitats, does not mean the company has to acknowledge this or run any tests regarding acceptable temperature parameters of their products.
> 
> am i waffling again?
> 
> sorry :lol2:


No you are not waffling Dave. You make good sense.  Good information too. 

I have just looked at Eurorep's site, and yes they are selling the RUBS. Peter says they are suitable too. See below.  I will give peter a thumbs up for the special note at the end, which is carefully worded.

However I don't accept these boxes as suitable for small reptiles unless the lid problem is addressed before sale, as reading the different forums proves how many snakes have been badly injured or died, due to the buyers not addressing the problem because they either don't know or are willing to chance thinking it won't happen to their snake. In that sense, and for the use of small snakes I am dead set against the RUBS. 

Good point about us drilling or soldering several air holes in them Dave, thus affecting the structural integrity of the box. That could weaken them.

Harry made a point about me using a dish washer as well, that could run at high temps. I do have a dish washer Harry, but alas I forgot to empty the garbage disposer which is plumbed in on the same pipe, so wrecked the dish washer, and just use it as a spare cupboard now. LOL, however you got me thinking about the strong disinfectants that I have had to use here in order to avoid the spread of any viruses amongst the reptiles. They could well have an adverse effect. Anyone have any comments/input on this?

Mo.

Link to Eurorep web site and RUBS for sale. 

Euro Rep Ltd - Europes largest manufacturer and distributor of Reptile Products











Click to enlarge


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## loxocemus

my own experience of rub's has been nothing but positive, you have to set them up correctly, just like any snake container/cage, any vivarium can be setup wrong, whether its acrylic, wood or those fancy pvx materials etc, its all down to the keeper, a well setup rub is as good as a well setup "traditional cage", iv had animals feed in rub's that wouldnt in traditional caging, there is definately a selection of species that are very well suited to them, virtually every burrower iv ever kept has loved them, and there are some species that bounce off the walls when placed in them, iv seen someone comment that fish tanks are slow deaths for animals (fine for a couple years then slowly die of stagnant air!) thats simply not true, the keeper who keeps a manky fishtank killed the kept not the fishtank, i used to have a room full of fishtanks, everything in them did exceedingly well, loved thier food, loved the heat, i could clean them like virtually nothing else u can get now. its down to the keeper, not the box they choose for thier collection, some habitat type's need more hands on time, thats the difference, how much time do u have for ur animals/collection, the people with more animals choose the least maintenance option so all of his/her animals get what they need to thrive. i wont address the primate link, as there is none, its about as similar as gerald the goldfish in his bowl to gerald the greatwhite with seal in his teeth, primate care and all animal care i suppose is driven by the grey matter they carry around, after a few years i found what i thought and still think makes snakes happy, first and foremost reduce stress to an absolute minimum, stress kills more snakes than any disease, reduce this in every aspect of the snakes daily life, and you will have a "happy" animal, the definition of happy is based on us as an advanced mammal carrying a coupla pounder brain looking at an instinctual animal with a pea sized brain, so trying to make a corn happy is probably not the best way to address it, how i do give the cornsnake everything it needs to be stress free and thrive in this rub/cage habitat i have it in. setups have as much to do with making the keeper happy as the kept, some keepers find a wall of RUB's makes them happy, contented and feel thier doing the best for thier captives, other people need plants and glass and branches etc etc to achieve this same feeling, both are good, both are valid, at the end of the day we want animals that thrive whether thier behind plastic or glass.


i probably went off topic, sorry its 5am 

rgds
ed


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## bgfaith

Just out of curiosity my mum wants to get two marmoset monkeys and we will be keeping them outside in a 30ft x 20ft cage type thing which is like 8ft in height, it will have a shed type thing with heating in for the monkey to sleep in at night and obviously all different things in the cage like trees ropes and toys for monkeys. Do you think it is still cruel to keep a monkey in a cage that size?


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## Moshpitviper

which marmies are we talking about? i think the size of the encloure is adequate.... but what sort of enrichment and how large a troop are we talking?


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## bgfaith

just a pair so they have company but not sure yet as it isnt going to be for awhile anyway but the outline of the pen is already up


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## TSKA Rory Matier

That cage size is adequate for more than just the pair, in fact that size could house a small troop, especially when you consider the size of the common marmoset.

The enclosure in question when this apparently doomed to fail thread began was a parrot cage and not a enclosure designed to house cottons upwards to capuchins.

R


----------



## bgfaith

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> That cage size is adequate for more than just the pair, in fact that size could house a small troop, especially when you consider the size of the common marmoset.
> 
> The enclosure in question when this apparently doomed to fail thread began was a parrot cage and not a enclosure designed to house cottons upwards to capuchins.
> 
> R


I do agree with that, that housing them in parrot cages is wrong it is obviously not big enough, i think when we get our marmosets the only way we would have a parrot cage is when we bring them in the house or whatever during the day but not for it to live in for life its like keeping people in prison cells constantly


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## sallyconyers

I originally had 3 leos in a 3ft viv, loads of hides etc. But still the females were fighting. RUBs were the perfect answer - each leo has its own area and can be kept solitary which they seem to prefer, the RUBs area worked out larger per individual than when they were in the viv and you can also stick plants etc to RUBs better than a wooden viv so they are better enriched. RUB are more practical as you can stack them - they are light weight and much easier to move if required (also about £20 cheaper). Also if you have an animal with an infection they are solitary and this prevents any spread and they are much easier to clean thoroughly. So, so far I am loving the RUB! :2thumb:


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## mat_worrell

toyah said:


> A RUB provides the same enrichment and stimulation for a reptile as a vivarium does - none. It's what you add to these boxes (plastic, wooden, glass, or otherwise) that make them enriching and stimulating environments.
> 
> We keep our adults in RUBs. They're each given one or two types of substrate that allows burrowing, two differently textured and shaped types of dry hides, a moist hide (again different size/shape/material/texture to the two other hides), a waterbowl of yet another texture, a large rock or stone, and at least one type of climbing branch (though I have a second type of wood I'm going to put in when I get round to it).
> 
> Would those things be more stimulating and enriching in a wooden vivarium than they are in a RUB?


if this is so... why do so many people have such a problem with primates in bird cages? based on what you have said - it is fair and reasonable to keep a monkey in a bird cage as long as whats inside it is enriching its life.


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## Meko

if the bird cage is the right size that the primate needs then i doubt anybody would complain; but they don't make bird cages that big.


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## Scott W

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Okay, so here is a question that was posed to me the other day, so where else best to ask it accept here on one of the leading UK reptile Forums.
> 
> I fight against primates being kept in oversized and undersized parrot cages in the loungeroom - because they lack space, enrichment, environment and stimulation.
> 
> Someone asked me the other day, why so many reptile keepers could openly complain about primate habitats when in reality so many Reptile Keepers keep species in RUB's - which l believe stands for Really Useful Box, although perhaps it should be called a RUPB - really useful plastic box.
> 
> The primate keepers ' question was simple - if it is appalling to keep a primate in an undersized parrot cage in the loungeroom then why is it acceptable to house a reptile in a RUB?
> 
> Why should anyone keep a 'reptile' in a plastic box?
> 
> Do these RUBs provide the right enrichment, stimulation and environment for the occupants.
> 
> And does it not actually encourage more keepers to become lazy in their keeping by keeping them in purely plastic tubs??
> 
> Its l thought a relatively good question.
> 
> R


Rory are you serious???

Surely you don't believe the needs of a primate and the needs of a reptile (physical and emotional) are the same?

:lol2:


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## mat_worrell

Meko said:


> if the bird cage is the right size that the primate needs then i doubt anybody would complain; but they don't make bird cages that big.


so an 8foot long by 6foot high by 4foot wide is not a large 'bird cage' space to keep a pair of marmosets with ?!


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## Ssthisto

I personally would have thought a pair of marmosets would need larger than 8X4X6... that, and they DO need to be able to go outside into a secure enclosure, too, for their own mental health and stimulation.

However, most parrot cages are nothing like so large (what you've described is an indoor aviary, not a "parrot cage" like you'd buy at a pet shop - and it's the pet-shop parrot cages that Rory's talking about, the kind designed to keep an Amazon or Grey in... incidentally, I wouldn't keep an Amazon or African grey in one either, our grey had a "macaw" sized cage), which is the problem. Surely we can both agree that keeping an African Grey in a budgie cage is wrong, and that keeping a full grown adult five-foot corn snake in a shoebox is wrong, and therefore, keeping a marmoset in a cage that is too small for it to be able to display normal behaviour is ALSO wrong. The thing is, the Grey and the marmosets both need much more space to be able to display their normal behaviours than a snake of the same weight.

Now, I think Toyah's point was:

A 36 X 18 X 18 inch box is a 36X18X18 inch box, regardless of whether it's made of plastic with a lid that lifts off the top or made of melamine-faced chipboard with sliding glass doors - the size is important, the material is not; what you put in it is critical.


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## Meko

mat_worrell said:


> so an 8foot long by 6foot high by 4foot wide is not a large 'bird cage' space to keep a pair of marmosets with ?!


i'd call that an avary rather than a bird cage.


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## snickers

I keep some smaller snakes in plastic boxes and larger snakes in vivs. What is the problem. They are both plastic (RUBs and Rhino vivs), just the size varies.
Is it OK to keep neon tetras in glass tanks, or would it be better to put them in wooden tanks?
In my opinion what the enclosure is made of is allmost immaterial to the pet, whilst getting the size, humidity, heating, environment etc right is far more important.

Mammals and primates in particular are not snakes. The 2 groups are just not comparable. You may as well compare a marmoset with a neon tetra.


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## sophiep

I used to use Contico boxes and my geckos thrived..


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