# new private keepers organisation



## sarahatpetwise (Jan 13, 2007)

I have just finished the website for our new organisation PAKA (Private Animal Keepers Association). Please check out the site at PAKA - Pet Wise Zoo Membership is FREE and open to everyone. If you own an exotic animal, whether it be 1 or 100 you can join. 
I know there have been other organisations previously offering a similar thing, but unfortunately, for what reason, they have not seemed to work out.
I would PAKA to get as many members as possible ASAP and hopefully have our first meeting before Christmas. Have a look at the site and I hope to hear from you all soon!


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

why is your association website on pet wise zoo? it seems an elaborate way of promoting yourself and your animals and services even if the intentions are good.

I personally think it would be better to have its own site with its own domain then it could be taken more seriously without any conflict of interest on your part and would be a greater asset to the reptile keeping community


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## ophidianman (Sep 5, 2008)

Hmm. I wish you all the best with this but your PAKA does seem to be a bit of a NAPAK rip off ?


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## sarahatpetwise (Jan 13, 2007)

Well, firstly the reason it's on my site, is that I would have to pay an additional several hundred pounds or there abouts to put PAKA on its own site. It would require additional hosting, domain name and I would have have to pay my website designers to create a new site. I'm not that good at computers I can't do all that myself! It has taken me ages to create the additional PAKA section!
As I don't want the members to have to pay for anything, the cheapest and easiest option is to combine it with existing site that I am already paying for. If PAKA goes well and is a success then I am happy to pay for the additional expenses out of my own pocket, unless all the members would like to pay for subscription?! 

You say it's a way of promoting myself, tell me, would people who already have collections of animals hire me? I don't think so. I really have no interest in promoting my business through PAKA. We are doing fine as we are and I think it would be a waste of time trying to even promote Petwise to PAKA Members!

I hoped nobody would see PAKA as a NAPAK rip off. The NAPAK site seems to have stopped working, I haven't been able to contact them for years. Also, I am not doing this for profit or for myself and I certainly don't intent to 'rip any one off'. I don't see how that's possible seeing as we are a none profit organisation. I have the same goals as NAPAK had and, I would be happy to work with them, if they are still running, but I don't believe they are. 

I hoped people would see PAKA as a good thing, a way forward for private keepers to work together, but obviously there are a few people who think I must have other reasons for starting PAKA!


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

I find this confusing.....

The link takes us straight to a site about your own business, not the private keepers thingy. Are you using this as a way to promote your own enterprise? If so, I wouldn't feel all that comfortable about joining the organisation....sorry


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## sarahatpetwise (Jan 13, 2007)

As the P.A.K.A home page explains, which the link does take you to, this is a *temporary* site. I am offering this service FREE to members. If I have to build a brand new site at the beginning, without even knowing if anyone is interested in this service, it would cost me a lot of money, out of my own pocket. As I want this to be a free service for everyone. I do not want to charge a subscription fee. 
The PAKA section does not in any way promote my company. I do not think members who already own a large number of animals have any interest in paying for me to bring them more animals, do they?!

If people do not want to join then that's fine. My opinion is that there is no large organisation out there which does the purpose PAKA, which is designed just for private keepers. You do already have a couple of other organisations for private keepers, which I have already been in contact with, but these are offering a different service. 

I think it is a great shame that there are a few individuals on here that seem to think I am making some sort of personal profitable gain from this, instead of actually spending the time to read through the PAKA site and see what it is I am actually trying to achieve. I am just glad that there are people who can see this and are now members.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

sarahatpetwise said:


> . *I do not think members who already own a large number of animals have any interest in paying for me to bring them more animals, do they?!* *You'd be surprised just how many jobs you could pickup from people that already keep various animals! Especially from those that work at schools and don't want to/or can't take their own animals into work.....call me a sceptical cynic, but that's where the confusion lies here. I don't wish to outright accuse you of shameless self-promotion, but you have to admit why some people might find the site ambiguous!*
> 
> I think it is a great shame that there are a few individuals on here that seem to think I am making some sort of personal profitable gain from this, instead of actually spending the time to read through the PAKA site and see what it is I am actually trying to achieve. I am just glad that there are people who can see this and are now members.


I have read the site from start to finish, even the parts about your little zoo thing, but even in doing that, I found the lines between your business and this animal society stuff a little blurred. Sorry that that has seemed to put your nose out of joint a little, but I'm only expressing an outside opinion......I won't be the last one to mention this


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

imo your caresheets could do with some work?


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Also, some of the "available" animals that you have on your site are for sale on this very forum for 100's of pounds (i.e. the porcupines), and yet you claim to be about all about being a rescue centre, "re-homing" animals, and being a non-profit making organisation......as I said, it's all a little confusing


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

my bad, I didn't mean to come across as I have, just meant to be a bit critical.

If you wanted to separate the sites you could purchase a domain for around £6 a year then use it as an add on domain on your existing host for no additional cost.

Creating the actual site itself doesn't have to be expensive, you could use an offline WYSIWYG editor (such as dreamweaver etc/open source alternative) or some hosts provide online site builders. If you have something more specialised in mind then have a look at the many open source (and free) pre made scripts that are available that already have membership systems and content management in place.

Good luck with it :2thumb:


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

what is wrong with the care sheets,have glanced at them and as a guideline they seem fine.Every person you speak to will have different views on how to keep species,so i would imagine these are just helpful pointers.


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## sarahatpetwise (Jan 13, 2007)

it's ok I understand why people would be critical as it is attached to my existing sight. I always listen to peoples views and I have decided to try and separate the sites. I'm just making the new logo now and I shall be buying a new domain by the end of today. 
I really am not doing this to promote myself, far from it. So, if anyone else is interested in joining please look at the *temporary* site or pm me


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## sarahatpetwise (Jan 13, 2007)

The care sheets are in my opinion only and I do not expect everyone to have to same views. If anyone would like to become a member, I will happily put other caresheets on the website. The more opinions expressed on keeping animals the better. We all follow what works for ourselves don't we?

We do offer rehoming as well as breeding our own animals. I have to make a living. This year alone I have rehomed (all for free) over 100 lizards, many terrapins, invertebrates, rabbits, poultry, taken in stray cats, snakes, and more. If I do not have a profitable business and breed some animals for sale/exchange, then how can I possibly afford to run the rehoming side? All the aspects of my business and rehoming side is mine and several other people's full time job (for which, we do not get wages).
I am sure for anyone who has tried to run a charity or rescue centre know how difficult and expensive it is and most of us can only afford to do it with another form of income to support it. 
You mention 'all' the animals I have on this site are for sale for £100's, have you even looked at all the threads I have put up for rehoming animals? And that isn't all the animals I have rehomed. 
This thread seems to be going off track somewhat for what it was actually meant to be about! :lol:


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

animalsbeebee said:


> what is wrong with the care sheets,have glanced at them and as a guideline they seem fine.Every person you speak to will have different views on how to keep species,so i would imagine these are just helpful pointers.


i only had a quick flick through a couple and theres a few things wrong imo, but of the top of my head

recommends rabbits and guinea pigs together

recommends keeping corns together because they are communal animals without mentioning feeding them seperatly out of the enclosure

recommends feeding chinchillas plently of veg and fruit and a muesli mix


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

What are your organisations aims? Do you have a political agenda? What's in it for me if I join?

Tbh it sound like it's just another reptile forum....


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## gecko lady (Jun 26, 2010)

just thought i would say what i felt about the website, it looks really nice and professional however when you click on different links on the top of the page or the ones down the left hand side it then comes up with different links down the left hand side, i think that is quite confusing. 
Looks good though


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## sarahatpetwise (Jan 13, 2007)

Thank you for your opinions. I do listen to people's useful opinions and I shall add on about feeding the corns separately. That is something I missed out. All of our corns do get fed separately, I must have forgot to add that part in. 
Here's what my care sheets do say though:

'Chinchilla mix is readily available from pet shops and can be supplemented every other day with various fruits and vegetables.'

'Corn snakes are communal animals and can be kept in pairs or groups.'

I cannot find anywhere about the rabbits and guinea pigs living together!

As I say, I am more than happy, in fact I would love for members to get involved and write their own care sheets, reflecting their own views. After all, it's better to have several suggestions on how a species can be kept than just one view, right?


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## sarahatpetwise (Jan 13, 2007)

Gecko_lady. Thank you for your comments. Yes, I understand why this may seem confusing. As I have said in another thread, for the cheapest, I have just created a different section on an existing website to host the PAKA site. There does seem to be a fair bit of confusion though about the combined sites. I shall hopefully be giving PAKA its own site next week to stop any confusion


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## sarahatpetwise (Jan 13, 2007)

Well, it's certainly not a forum. I think the 'reptile forums' does that job perfectly well. 
If you have a look at the *temporary* site PAKA - Pet Wise Zoo Click on membership, all the benefits are listed there. 
We are hoping to have a 24 hour helpline, newsletters and updates, meetings designed for the private keeper, a way for keepers to sell/exchange animals, knowing that all the prospective owners are credible, a way for people to directly contact PAKA or it's members via phone/email for advice, open days of members collections - which I feel is one of the best ways to learn more, and of course, contact with other keepers. 
And it's FREE. All we ask is that you can offer something to the organisation.


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## marcophil (May 15, 2010)

sarahatpetwise said:


> Well, it's certainly not a forum. I think the 'reptile forums' does that job perfectly well.
> If you have a look at the *temporary* site PAKA - Pet Wise Zoo Click on membership, all the benefits are listed there.
> We are hoping to have a 24 hour helpline, newsletters and updates, meetings designed for the private keeper, a way for keepers to sell/exchange animals, knowing that all the prospective owners are credible, a way for people to directly contact PAKA or it's members via phone/email for advice, open days of members collections - which I feel is one of the best ways to learn more, and of course, contact with other keepers.
> And it's FREE. All we ask is that you can offer something to the organisation.


i have read the benefits and there is nothing there that you cannot do on this site except a 24hour phone line which, should not be needed, as if there is a major issue with an animal i would ring the vets first and then here while waiting for the vets appointment.
but good luck with it


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## Warren_Booth (Apr 21, 2008)

sarahatpetwise said:


> Well, it's certainly not a forum. I think the 'reptile forums' does that job perfectly well.
> If you have a look at the *temporary* site PAKA - Pet Wise Zoo Click on membership, all the benefits are listed there.
> We are hoping to have a 24 hour helpline, newsletters and updates, meetings designed for the private keeper, a way for keepers to sell/exchange animals, knowing that all the prospective owners are credible, a way for people to directly contact PAKA or it's members via phone/email for advice, open days of members collections - which I feel is one of the best ways to learn more, and of course, contact with other keepers.
> And it's FREE. All we ask is that you can offer something to the organisation.



Being on the board of directors for the United States Association of Reptile Keepers, I know first hand that many of the things you want to offer cost a lot of money. How do you intend to fund these? For example, look at many of the reptile shows around the U.S. and even the U.K. The room hire alone for these meetings can be in the thousands. With your 24 hours helpline, how do you intend to vet the people giving the advice? A public organization giving out bad advice could end up in a nasty law suit? Do you therefore intend to have liability insurance for your board members (I assume you will need a board to govern your plans).

Not trying to put a downer on this, but a free organization will not support your aims. Also, what happens if the government aim to pass regulation to outlaw reptile keeping, for example. How would you fight this? Petitions are not that effective in general. It takes money, and lots of it.

Warren 

Warren


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

marcophil said:


> i have read the benefits and there is nothing there that you cannot do on this site except a 24hour phone line which, should not be needed, as if there is a major issue with an animal i would ring the vets first and then here while waiting for the vets appointment.
> but good luck with it


I also read the benefits and that's what I meant. Also if membership is free how do you define what is active participation or what we can offer is enough? And tbh by your description I fall into the category of 'standard membership' by my reading of it... So I wouldn't get the 24h phone line etc.



Warren_Booth said:


> Not trying to put a downer on this, but a free organization will not support your aims. Also, what happens if the government aim to pass regulation to outlaw reptile keeping, for example. How would you fight this? Petitions are not that effective in general. It takes money, and lots of it.
> 
> Warren
> 
> Warren


^^^^

And that's where I was going with the political agenda question. 

How do you differ from say the IHS?


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

eeeek! I just read your cornsnake care sheet.

Are corns _really_ communal animals and do they seriously 'enjoy' a weekly bath?.....

I can't comment on any of the other care sheets because I haven't owned any of those species but the advice given in the corn sheet is enough to put me off


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## storm (Jul 23, 2007)

eeji said:


> eeeek! I just read your cornsnake care sheet.
> 
> Are corns _really_ communal animals and do they seriously 'enjoy' a weekly bath?.....
> 
> I can't comment on any of the other care sheets because I haven't owned any of those species but the advice given in the corn sheet is enough to put me off



im afraid i have to agree with this....... i have had a scan through some of the other care sheets as well, and as eeji said....it has put me off also


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

sarahatpetwise said:


> Thank you for your opinions. I do listen to people's useful opinions and I shall add on about feeding the corns separately. That is something I missed out. All of our corns do get fed separately, I must have forgot to add that part in.
> Here's what my care sheets do say though:
> 
> 'Chinchilla mix is readily available from pet shops and can be supplemented every other day with various fruits and vegetables.' They shouldn't be fed muesli mix though as you originally suggested...but special chin grass pellets. Fruit is no good for them too because of the sugar content
> ...


With regards to the rehoming/selling animals issue, all I was saying was that the website is confusing. Most good rescues (and I'm not for a second saying yours isn't bona fide), but most don't have a commercially breeding aspect to them. The lines between the various purposes of your business/charity/whatever are very blurred. Sorry for pointing that out as it isn't the real topic of the thread, but you did ask for opinions on the site, purely by putting the link on the forum.


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## Fionab (Mar 28, 2010)

storm said:


> im afraid i have to agree with this....... i have had a scan through some of the other care sheets as well, and as eeji said....it has put me off also


i also have to agree with this, and reading hte bearded dragons one you advice that calci sand does not cause impaction... and you only feed veg every second day............

sorry no offence but i wouldnt be recommending anyone to read your care sheets.


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## Brian J (Jun 23, 2011)

I don't think this has been thought out to well mate can't see you getting much support on here but good luck none the less 

Brian


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## Hannah81 (Nov 19, 2008)

Ok so the caresheets aren't up to scratch but I read this as the whole point being that we can join this and offer advice and care sheets to put on the site. So instead of just complaining that it's all wrong how's about someone rewrites it correctly so the OP can put correct information on the site.


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## G.R/Trooper (Feb 20, 2011)

sarahatpetwise said:


> I have just finished the website for our new organisation PAKA (Private Animal Keepers Association). Please check out the *TEMPORARY* site at PAKA - Pet Wise Zoo Membership is FREE and open to everyone. If you own an exotic animal, whether it be 1 or 100 you can join.
> I know there have been other organisations previously offering a similar thing, but unfortunately, for what reason, they have not seemed to work out.
> PAKA provides a place for keepers to offer advice to one another, share there knowledge, write their own care sheets reflecting their own opinions, a way of personally getting to know each other through events and meetings, and a place to sell/exchange their animals, knowing that the prospective owners are credible.
> The only thing we ask from members is that you get involved and offer what you can back to the group.
> I would love PAKA to get as many members as possible and have the first newsletter email distributed by xmas. Have a look at the site and I hope to hear from you soon!


If membership is free & open to everyone, how do you regulate & monitor who come's into the group and enforce that they need a reptile to be part of this "club"? If anyone can join, kinda ruins the exclusivity of the entire project in my opinion.

=(


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## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

G.R/Trooper said:


> If membership is free & open to everyone, how do you regulate & monitor who come's into the group and enforce that they need a reptile to be part of this "club"? If anyone can join, kinda ruins the exclusivity of the entire project in my opinion.
> 
> =(


But if they charged then this forum would publically hang them...


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## G.R/Trooper (Feb 20, 2011)

Tombo46 said:


> But if they charged then this forum would publically hang them...


Nobody is talking about charging i think, but they claim it's a place if you have a reptile, which would therefore suggest if you do not you may not be part of the club. Well that's great! But how is it enforced?

What gives it some exclusivity?

What does it have to offer which is different from other groups and forums?

This forum publically hangs people all the time, mainly the users by mods =P


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

sarahatpetwise said:


> Thank you for your opinions. I do listen to people's useful opinions and I shall add on about feeding the corns separately. That is something I missed out. All of our corns do get fed separately, I must have forgot to add that part in.
> Here's what my care sheets do say though:
> 
> 'Chinchilla mix is readily available from pet shops and can be supplemented *every other day with various fruits and vegetables.'*
> ...


copied and pasted from your caresheet.

Guinea pigs have a lifespan of 4-6 years and in general make good pets.
Guinea pigs are a very placid animal and are relatively easy to keep as a pet.
*We house our guinea pigs in large walk-in enclosures with our rabbits*. Some owners keep guinea pigs in hutches. We reccommend a minimum hutch size of 4ft with an external exercise pen of a minimum size of 4ftx6ft. Some owners keep guinea pigs inside. The cage should be a minimum of 4ft and, again the g.pigs should have access to an exercise area daily. Harnesses can be brought to exercise g.pigs, but we have found these to have little benefit, as g.pigs refuse to walk on command!

guinea pigs should not be housed with rabbits, there a a lot of reasons why - different dietary needs, spread of diseases like bordatella, and they have different social structures and behaviour - they just dont understand each other and a lot get killed by co-habiting.


chinchillas fed fruit and veg every other day will not last long - they are not designed for it and they will get dietary induced squits which kills.
they should be fed mainly hay with good hard pellets. muesli mix and treats are the biggest killers of chins with selective feeding and the associated tooth disorders.

sorry if i`m on my soap box, but i`ve had no end of chins with tooth roots grown up into their eye sockets dumped on me, and guinea pigs with respiratory infections, bite wounds and advanced survey from bad housing and diets.


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