# Ultra v Amelanistic



## ballpiefun (Mar 8, 2007)

I have read conflicting reports regarding the relationship between the Ultra and Amelanism alleles. Some state that they are codominant while others state that Amel is recessive to Ultra.

What is your opinion and do you have any proof?

Cheers,
Patrick.


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Many people state that ultra and ultramel are impossible to reliably tell apart ... or at least very very difficult.

So someone who finds them impossible to tell apart will say ultra is dominant to amel. Someone wo finds them difficult (but possible) to tell apart is saying they're codominant.

I have no seen any reliable methods of telling the two apart, as there is such variance in the two. So I guess I would err towards it being dominant - but it doesn't really matter, does it? It's only a terminology, and both terms seem to have their faults in this situation.


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## ballpiefun (Mar 8, 2007)

Hi Toyah - I am leaning towards the theory that Ultra is dominant to Amel and therefore whether you get an Ultra/Amel or an Ultra/Ultra gene pairing at the Albino locus, you end up with the same phenotype. So how do you know what genotype you have?

If you bred an Ultramel to an Amel and got only Ultramel babies I suppose you could say that the probability is high that your Ultramel adult is infact an Ultra adult. 

Following the same train of thought, is there any difference in the phenotype of an Ultramel Caramel and an Ultra Caramel? If not, does that mean that a Golddust has two genotypes?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Cheers,
Patrick.


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

ballpiefun said:


> Hi Toyah - I am leaning towards the theory that Ultra is dominant to Amel and therefore whether you get an Ultra/Amel or an Ultra/Ultra gene pairing at the Albino locus, you end up with the same phenotype. So how do you know what genotype you have?


Well ... if you can't tell from the parents, then you can't tell except with breeding trials. I think it's too late as we now have the terms "ultra" and "ultramel" which appear to describe genotype as much as phenotype - but my preference would be to call them both ultra, but specify "het amel" for those that are known het amel - same as we call a motley from a stripe x motley mating "motley het stripe".

So ultra het amel (ultramel) x ultra het amel (ultramel) = amels and ultras 66% ph amel.



ballpiefun said:


> Following the same train of thought, is there any difference in the phenotype of an Ultramel Caramel and an Ultra Caramel? If not, does that mean that a Golddust has two genotypes?


I really don't know the answer to that 100% - but I have seen many well respected breeders post photos of "suspected ultra caramels" that they're going to test mate ... surely if the difference was obvious, then they'd know the answer without breeding trials?


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## ballpiefun (Mar 8, 2007)

toyah said:


> Well ... if you can't tell from the parents, then you can't tell except with breeding trials. I think it's too late as we now have the terms "ultra" and "ultramel" which appear to describe genotype as much as phenotype - but my preference would be to call them both ultra, but specify "het amel" for those that are known het amel - same as we call a motley from a stripe x motley mating "motley het stripe".
> 
> So ultra het amel (ultramel) x ultra het amel (ultramel) = amels and ultras 66% ph amel.
> 
> ...


I agree. So I until proven otherwise I will consider Ultra to be dominant to Amel and that a Golddust can be either an Ultramel Caramel or an Ultra Caramel. I think Joe Pierce is doing a lot of work with the Ultra gene so it will be interesting to hear of his conclusions. Thanks very much for sharing your thoughts.

Cheers,
Patrick.


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

I've always believed Ultra and Amel to be codominant to each other - If you bred Goldust to Goldust you (theoretically) get 1/4 Butter, 1/2 Golddust, 1/4 Ultra Caramel.

If Ultra was dominant to Amel, the same pairing would produce 1/4 Butter and 3/4 Ultra Caramel phenotypes, making the Goldust an imposibility.

I believe from what I've read the easiest way to tell Ultra from Ultramel morphs is in the eyes (I can't comment personally, because I've not seen enough morphs to make a comparison )


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## ballpiefun (Mar 8, 2007)

eeji said:


> I've always believed Ultra and Amel to be codominant to each other - If you bred Goldust to Goldust you (theoretically) get 1/4 Butter, 1/2 Golddust, 1/4 Ultra Caramel.


Only if Golddust is ultra/amel caramel/caramel and ultra and amel are codom but if ultra is dominant to amel how would you know if your Golddust was ultra/ultra or ultra/amel, surely they'd look the same!



eeji said:


> If Ultra was dominant to Amel, the same pairing would produce 1/4 Butter and 3/4 Ultra Caramel phenotypes, making the Goldust an imposibility.


If Ultra is dominant to Amel, both Ultra Caramel and Ultramel Caramel, would be Golddust. 



eeji said:


> I believe from what I've read the easiest way to tell Ultra from Ultramel morphs is in the eyes (I can't comment personally, because I've not seen enough morphs to make a comparison )


Me either but I intend to go on the hunt for some comparison photos. 

Thanks for your thoughts eeji!! Do you have any photos of Ultra Caramel on your website or any of Ultra and Ultramel?

Cheers,
Patrick.


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

:whistling2: I didn't think that through very well did I?!!! 

Ultra and Ultramel are on the site, but Ultra Caramel isn't - Ultra Amber (Ultra+Caramel) is there though.
The pics are quite generic and don't show the eyes very well for a comparison


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