# Meatloaf for Monitors



## Taxemic (Aug 13, 2008)

An adequate, low calorie diet for monitors has been developed and tested: 


*Quote:*
Comparison of growth and nutritional status of juvenile Komodo monitors (Varanus komodoensis) maintained on rodent or poultry-based diets 
Jeffrey M. Lemm, Mark S. Edwards, Tandora D. Grant, Allison C. Alberts 
Center for Reproduction of Endangered Species, Zoological Society of San Diego, San Diego, California 
2Department of Veterinary Services, Zoological Society of San Diego, San Diego, California 

Abstract 
Nutrition and growth data were collected on six juvenile Komodo monitors (Varanus komodoensis) over 20 months. The animals were captive-bred from two separate clutches, laid 6 months apart. Three animals were fed a rodent diet, and the other three were fed a poultry-based diet. The animals were all weighed and measured weekly. Blood samples were collected monthly. Blood samples were analyzed for sodium (Na), potassium (K), calcium (Ca), phosphorus (P), magnesium (Mg), 25-OH-D, and cholesterol. Significant differences (P<0.05) were observed in dry matter intake (DMI) (1.12 vs. 0.90 %BW) and gross energy intake (GEI) (182.3 vs. 143.0 kcal GE/d), between rodent and poultry-based diets, respectively. However, there were no differences in growth (average daily gain=6.13 vs. 6.33 g BW/d) between the two dietary treatments. Blood Na, K, Ca, P, Mg, and 25-OH-D concentrations were similar across treatments, while cholesterol levels were higher in the animals maintained on the rodent-based diet. Zoo Biol 23:239-252, 2004. © 2004 Wiley-Liss, Inc.​ 
Here is a link to the article if you wish to read it – 

Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies

The recipe was developed by Jeff Lemm of the San Diego Zoo for use with their endangered komodo monitors. The formula is said to be similar to the nutritional content of a mouse. He rose more than one generation of Ackies on it to prove its completeness. Here are the ingredients: 

*Ground Turkey - 10 pounds **
Bone Meal - 18 level measuring teaspoons (6 level measuring tablespoons) (90 grams) 
Centrum vitamin tablets, crushed & powdered - quantity 2* 


The SDZ diet is bare minimum. Rather than use bone meal powder, chicken backs and necks can be used instead and are much more nutritious, but the big important thing is the addition of natural wheat bran. Roughage is important and the SDZ has none, so you get smelly, runny stools. The faeces stink like sewage because it stays inside longer and there's nothing for the intestines to grip to stimulate them to move the faeces along. 
Bran deodorises by absorbing liquid waste and moving it through the animal faster - like when it's done and ready to go, instead of sitting like a puddle of sewage in there.

Here is my variation of the SDZ (*which I feed as part of a varied diet) *for those who may wish to try it themselves.

*Chicken Carcasses – 2 (free!!!)*
*Lean Meat – 12oz (340g) (£1 max)*
*Egg Whites – 2 (cheap as eggs, free if you have chickens)*
*Natural Wheat Bran – 2 Cups (Pennies and can be brought in bulk)*
*Multi-vitamin Tablet – One 1/4 of one.*

This can be made in bulk and refrigerated or frozen in ice cube trays to create individual portions.

Chicken backs and necks are readily available from my local butchers, they are free.








​ 
Use a large, sharp knife to cut the chicken making sure that you chop the pieces of bone as finely as possible, the bones are an important ingredient because they contain calcium. 

There are many types of lean meat you can use. These include chicken hearts, chicken gizzards, lamb hearts, liver, and kidneys. You could even try making a ‘fishy’ meatloaf if you liked. I try to mix it up each time. For this specific meatloaf I used braising steak, my Sav loves it! Chop the meat up as much as you can to give the processor less work, I hold some back to feed raw as treats.








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Add the meat, two egg whites (yolk is very fatty), and two cups of natural wheat bran into a food processor. Natural wheat bran is available from most health food stores but I get mine from a local pet shop for about £2 for a huge sack full.








​ 
I crush the ¼ of the multi-vitamin into a fine powder and add this to the ingredients.








​ 
PROCESS!!! A well known or better named brand of food processor will pay for itself if you don’t already own one, and they can cope with the bone a lot better than cheaper ones. Continue to pulse until you reach a consistent mix.








​ When I make my vid, I'll wear my very special t-shirt I use only for this very special purpose. Lulz will ensue.​ 







​
Pack and compress the mixture into a suitable microwavable container so that the meatloaf is about 1” thick. 








​ 
Cook with open lid on reheat for 1 minute or until all the moisture is nuked. Flip it over and cook for 10 second intervals until all moisture has been cooked and there is no visible pinkness on either side, it should be light brown in colour.








​
Cover with kitchen paper before freezing just to soak up any remaining moisture.

*The end result:*








​ 
I personally know of eight monitors that have been fed this as part of a staple diet, 3 of which I’ve fed myself. They all seem to enjoy it very much.

At a total of £3 maximum, this diet is very economical when compared to the rising price of dead rats, and it also deodorises the faeces. All said it is very convenient. Thanks for reading.

TaxemicFanatic


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## lynneowen1 (Jun 5, 2008)

Wow this should be a sticky!
looks gr8 as do the reps


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## sean k (Dec 20, 2007)

*meat loaf*

i totall agree with taxemic i have seen some of the boscs which have been fed on this and they look stunning and in perfect health. this gives a bosc every thing it needs. all you have to do is look at taxemics bosc, then you can see how happy and healthy the bosc looks. i have also fed my bosc some meat loaf and my bosc loves it and as taxemic says it is very cheep.


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

Brilliant mate love this recipe :2thumb:


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## bermudababe (Jul 24, 2008)

Looks amazing... n its done sneaky good. Love the picture  You will have to write up your training techniques next!!!


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## *o* (Apr 12, 2007)

Taxemic and I have similar idea of monitor foods and we talked about it before. 
I respect Taxemic's thought for his animals. We doubt commercially available mice/rats. (Only me? Taxemic? lol)

Like Taxemic, I do cook some self-made monitor diet.


I keep a bosc/tegu/Black roughneck monitor and they are all young.

I feed my special meals on the monitors.

I introduce my special meal (humburg) for my lizards.

I put these foods into my food mill.

1.dried red worm 2.Dried water flea 3.dried srimp 4.walnut 5.peanuts
6.iguana food 7.ant eggs 8.dried ground worm 9.dried water insects 10.reptomin 
11.dried horse hearts 12.worm food 13.dried Gammaridea 14.dreid fish 15.turtle food 
16.Miner-All 17.seeds 

I don't use raw meats. That's not same to Taxemic.
Raw meat will make other items gooey and you can cook humburg easily,
but but I use reptomin instead of raw meat.
Reptomin with some water or green juice also make humburg-like gooey texture.

dried horse heart also a good item



My food mill




Crush all of them and make pawder.

Then I add green juice and mixed up leaves of dandelion with them.
↓




veg fiber clean monitor's stomach and intestines up.




My bosc loves to eat the humburg directly (I cook humberg like dumpling cake for him.)


I put the pawder/humburg under the skin of a mouse/rat for tegu.



and I hide these self-made stick food in living dubia/crickets inside and my roughneck monitor love them.

All animals digest very well. 
*Though poeple say it's perfect meals, I doubt the nutrition of the mice/rats which have been bred and fed at factory.*

I load up these stinks in insect's inside.




All animals in my house are being healthy, no fatty at all. I don't feed mice only. 
I always add some pawder/humberg in those item before I feed.
I would add some natural small soil/sand (to gain some minerals and Calcium) in it, as well.


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## Taxemic (Aug 13, 2008)

Blimey Yusu, you're not just a pretty pet owner! Very interesting. You have just gone up a step in my book! Thanks for posting all that.


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## Natonstan (Aug 9, 2008)

Does this mean its possible to cut it into smaller pieces for Beardies?


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

If it's there type of music why not :lol2: :blush:.

Good recipe would go down well with blue tongue skinks : victory:.


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## *o* (Apr 12, 2007)

Taxemic said:


> Blimey Yusu, you're not just a pretty pet owner! Very interesting. You have just gone up a step in my book! Thanks for posting all that.


I admire what you do on your animal.
and I always think about my animal's foods.

I don't want feed much food with high calorie on my animal.
I would feed small amount of food contents well-balanced nutrition.
Then my animals will grow very well and very healthy.: victory:


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## Taxemic (Aug 13, 2008)

gazz said:


> If it's there type of music why not :lol2: :blush:.
> 
> Would go down well with blue tongue skinks : victory:.


I think you'd be correct there sir. Although answere to Naths question, my Beardy is far too fussy about the food he's supposed to eat so I don't think he cares. Also I'm not sure the diet has beed extensivley tested on Bearded Dragons.


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## tick (Dec 9, 2007)

Tax you've outdone yourself quality.Will be using this:2thumb:



STICKEY:2thumb::no1:


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## RoyalPython89 (Jul 15, 2008)

cant wait to get mine sorted lol and i think this should be a stickey


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## midnightworrior (Jul 25, 2005)

This is a great thread pal and very informative....:no1:
It would be great if more people did some long term research into reptiles diets as sadly loads or reptiles out there are suffering needlessly due to improper diets...Keep up the good work this must have taken you ages to compose


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## monitor mad (Jun 16, 2008)

Well done mate , this would be very useful as a *sticky* as a lot of bosc owners do indeed feed them an incorrect diet and this is a proven method of raising and maintaining them as a healthy *part* of there dietary requirement's, again well done for all your obvious hard work,effort and time matt , again if there are any mod's reading this , it would be very useful and helpful to make into a sticky *MM*


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## monitor mad (Jun 16, 2008)

Hi any Mod's reading this i think we would all like to hear your thoughts , thanks *MM* :2thumb:


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## Chuckwalla (Nov 6, 2008)

*!!!Quality Post!!!*

I have tried Taxemic's meatloaf for my lil Bosc, he loves the stuff, I have also used Ox liver & Ox heart in the mix, this is a very cheap meal, the 1st time I made it it only cost about £2.50 and made enough for about 20 meals, the 2nd time cost about £4.00, as I purchased 2 very large Ox hearts from a local slaughter house, where I ended up with nearly 5lb of Ox heart, I now have enough of the meatloaf for atleast 50 meals. This is a great cheap recipe which my Bosc loves as part of his varied diet. This would be a fantastic sticky so if any MOD's are reading it please note that there have been a number of monitor entusiasts requesting this as a sticky, so please honour the request.

Once again Taxemic quality enformative thread,


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## sean k (Dec 20, 2007)

*mods*

i think this should most definatly become a sticky because there are a lot of new monitor keepers out there who are allways wanting a good meal for there bosc and i think this would really help them out....


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## chucketeechuckstah (Sep 21, 2007)

one of the best threads i have seen in a while cant agree more with what others say i think also it should be a sticky:notworthy: well done taxemic was a good read :2thumb:


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## DRACSAT (Apr 13, 2008)

i agree with the above this should be made a sticky, just tried my 6 on it and they lapped it up, even my golden teg who is so fussy. well done taxemic


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## Taxemic (Aug 13, 2008)

:blush:

I really do honour everyones opinions and I'm completely flattered. Your views mean more than I can express. It's for the Monitors, and Jeff Lemms' work really is something to appreciate, I have the upmost respect for the guy.

I also respect everyone else who's had an appearance in this thread. You're *all* quality Monitor keepers and a cracking example of what the right care can achieve.

Thank you.


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## woodsy (Nov 29, 2007)

wow this is genius and has filled my head with idea after idea especially as my brother works as a chief and there always getting rid of chicken carcasses and offal so i could pretty much feed animals for free. could this be used all the time as a staple diet? and i wonder if i made a big sausage out of it would my boa take it as she will eat anything. i think this is the most interesting and informative thread to date thank you!


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## CB89 (Jan 15, 2009)

Natonstan said:


> Does this mean its possible to cut it into smaller pieces for Beardies?


I'm afraid that beardies are insectivors/veggies pal, and the digestive system i doubt would be able to cope with bone over a long period of time, also they would struggle with lean meat. Having said that i dont think its been studied, so i've no place here to say for sure.

Great recipies yusu and taxemic!

I found the case study very interesting in that it poultry lowers colesterol whilst everything else stays relative to rodent feeds.


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## RoyalPython89 (Jul 15, 2008)

its great but shame he didnt make it lol his mum did ha ha jk cant wait to do this on friday go some stuff to tell taxemic funny as hell.


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## exoticsandtropics (Mar 11, 2007)

this is a very interesting idea. i'm surprised to see zoos using a more meaty approach. although i suppose that komodos do have a more meaty diet than most monitors. especially things like boscs that will only live for about 3 years on a diet like that lol


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## chucketeechuckstah (Sep 21, 2007)

DRACSAT said:


> i agree with the above this should be made a sticky, just tried my 6 on it and they lapped it up, even my golden teg who is so fussy. well done taxemic


ha hah they lapped it up :lol2: good good that what i wonna see:2thumb:


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## DRACSAT (Apr 13, 2008)

exoticsandtropics said:


> this is a very interesting idea. i'm surprised to see zoos using a more meaty approach. although i suppose that komodos do have a more meaty diet than most monitors. especially things like boscs that will only live for about 3 years on a diet like that lol


 not if fed as a varied diet.


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## monitor mad (Jun 16, 2008)

exoticsandtropics said:


> this is a very interesting idea. i'm surprised to see zoos using a more meaty approach. although i suppose that komodos do have a more meaty diet than most monitors. especially things like boscs that will only live for about 3 years on a diet like that lol


It's part of the diet not the whole diet and 3yrs????


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## Taxemic (Aug 13, 2008)

woodsy said:


> wow this is genius and has filled my head with idea after idea especially as my brother works as a chief and there always getting rid of chicken carcasses and offal so i could pretty much feed animals for free. could this be used all the time as a staple diet? and i wonder if i made a big sausage out of it would my boa take it as she will eat anything. i think this is the most interesting and informative thread to date thank you!


I think I would advise anyone questioning as wether to feed this to other animals should think very carefully about it unless they can find factual data about it's effects on the species itself. Just in case.



exoticsandtropics said:


> this is a very interesting idea. i'm surprised to see zoos using a more meaty approach. although i suppose that komodos do have a more meaty diet than most monitors. especially things like boscs that will only live for about 3 years on a diet like that lol


Interesting comment there. :hmm:



RoyalPython89 said:


> its great but shame he didnt make it lol his mum did ha ha jk cant wait to do this on friday go some stuff to tell taxemic funny as hell.


Well my OH and I are slightly offended as the womans hand in the pic is my partners, not my mum. And she (as much as I'd like her to) will not do much at all by the means of chicken carcasses unfortunately. It made sense that she poured the wheatbran as I was taking the photo. But luckily she has never been affraid of the Bosc.


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## *o* (Apr 12, 2007)

Taxemic has a great spirit for monitors and thought and love for his/her animals.
I respect.


People tend to feed high calory foods and they want to grow their naimals big as soon as possible. Yes, their animals are so big and have rapid growth.

I know the first 2years for monitors is important. I feed a lot on young animals.They grow fast and demand a lot of food, but I think reptiles grow until they die. So I don't want to feed them very much as adult.
They should grow and keep being healthy and take a long life.

Like Japanese food, a healthy food with good menu is the best! :no1:

See them in the wild. Bosc' monitors only eat small insects, snails, spiders, roaches, crabs etc...and it is rare that they eat mice/rats in the wild.


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## Taxemic (Aug 13, 2008)

*o* said:


> Taxemic has a great spirit for monitors and thought and love for his/her animals.
> I respect.
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you Yusu. :blush:

Certainly right about the Japenese food. :no1:


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## vickylolage (Oct 5, 2008)

Ive always wanted a bosc... now that Ive seen what mess I can make I definately want one lol!

Thats amaizing mate


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## Taxemic (Aug 13, 2008)

vickylolage said:


> Ive always wanted a bosc... now that Ive seen what mess I can make I definately want one lol!
> 
> Thats amaizing mate


Lol, I like that!


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## acereptiles (Aug 30, 2006)

Found a very similar recipe here:

YouTube - Savvy Chef (Sav Meatloaf)

Sounds like good stuff. Was planning on trying my bosc on it soon, and also trying the tegu with it when he's awake and active again.


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

I know all of the abusive posts have thankfully been removed but for the record, if I were to vote in a "fearless leader" it would have to be


Monitor mad

: victory::2thumb:


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## monitor mad (Jun 16, 2008)

Dextersdad said:


> I know all of the abusive posts have thankfully been removed but for the record, if I were to vote in a "fearless leader" it would have to be
> 
> 
> Monitor mad
> ...


 
:lol2::lol2::blush:


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

monitor mad said:


> :lol2::lol2::blush:


I speak Zee truth.

: victory:


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## monitor mad (Jun 16, 2008)

Dextersdad said:


> I speak Zee truth.
> 
> : victory:


Love the new sig mate :2thumb:


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

monitor mad said:


> Love the new sig mate :2thumb:


Many thanks


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## Hobgoblin (Apr 13, 2007)

Dextersdad said:


> I know all of the abusive posts have thankfully been removed but for the record, if I were to vote in a "fearless leader" it would have to be
> 
> 
> Monitor mad
> ...


I'll second that........

As for the recipie Tax, its a fantastic idea and i think i pestered you for the recipie before too......I will have to give it a try...I have done some research on it and it seems to be great food so for the Mods I would give it a thumbs up to be sticky.........:2thumb:


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## tick (Dec 9, 2007)

Making this today:no1: Thanks Tax


Aint this a sticky yet? Get a grip mods


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## Taxemic (Aug 13, 2008)

tick said:


> Making this today:no1: Thanks Tax
> 
> 
> Aint this a sticky yet? Get a grip mods


Sweet Tick, let me know how you get on.


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## tick (Dec 9, 2007)

So far:-The new female Argus wolfed down her serving as did the Bosc the Ackies have not looked at it yet and niether have the Kimberlys or the Storrs the baby Argus from my first clutch is still investigating his new food will update later: victory:


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## Taxemic (Aug 13, 2008)

tick said:


> So far:-The new female Argus wolfed down her serving as did the Bosc the Ackies have not looked at it yet and niether have the Kimberlys or the Storrs the baby Argus from my first clutch is still investigating his new food will update later: victory:


Wow, suprised the Ackies haven't recognised it. Also maybe let me know if you think the smell of the feaces is any better, I'd appreciate that.


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## tick (Dec 9, 2007)

Taxemic said:


> Wow, suprised the Ackies haven't recognised it. Also maybe let me know if you think the smell of the feaces is any better, I'd appreciate that.


Will do not somthing i class as a pastime dipping my nose into feacal matter:lol2:


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## woodsy (Nov 29, 2007)

tick said:


> Will do not somthing i class as a pastime dipping my nose into feacal matter:lol2:


you dont know what your missing mate!:lol2:


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## R.E.P.07 (May 20, 2007)

do you reckon anyone has thought about making a vegi version for iggys.


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## Taxemic (Aug 13, 2008)

R.E.P.07 said:


> do you reckon anyone has thought about making a vegi version for iggys.


You got an Iggy? Something for you to try then huh? You could make all sorts of mess, why not?


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## R.E.P.07 (May 20, 2007)

Taxemic said:


> You got an Iggy? Something for you to try then huh? You could make all sorts of mess, why not?


yeah mate Ive got an iggy might try it one day


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## tick (Dec 9, 2007)

I sometimes to feed my monitors Meatloaf:whistling2:










Sorry Tax couldnt resist


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

tick said:


> I sometimes to feed my monitors Meatloaf:whistling2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


brilliant mate :lol2:


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## Taxemic (Aug 13, 2008)

c/p from RoyalPythonBoy.

food without cute litte ears and whiskers.. 
food that doesn't hop out and breed in the cracks... 
food that doesn't make the boss' wife puke when she goes in your fridge for some cream for her tea and sees bagfulls of corpses... 
food that isn't nasty in any way 
food that's economical- not filet mignon prices. 
food they don't chase and kill. and learn to take politely- more out of the cageness. 
it also happens to deodorise the poo, which makes potty training no worse than with any other housepet- out of the cageness even moar.


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## Chuckwalla (Nov 6, 2008)

*Fantastic*

"Quality", but in that pic looks like he has lost a bit of weight


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## Chuckwalla (Nov 6, 2008)

*Fish Based*

Hi Taxemic
Just to update, the Ox heart has gone down a real treat with my Bosc, I have previously used chicken, Ox liver as well.
This weekend I am going to have a go with SPRATS, oh my god, this will really stink:mf_dribble:
So will have to do it when th OH is out, and does not see what I am doing with the blender.
I am collecting my B&W Tegu on Saturday, I may try him on a tad as well.
Once again you should have bottled it and sold it, with the amount who are now giving it whirl.
I have a Black & White spiny Igg, any thoughs of a soufle there mate.

:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


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## Taxemic (Aug 13, 2008)

Chuckwalla said:


> "Quality", but in that pic looks like he has lost a bit of weight


:lol2:



Chuckwalla said:


> Hi Taxemic
> Just to update, the Ox heart has gone down a real treat with my Bosc, I have previously used chicken, Ox liver as well.
> This weekend I am going to have a go with SPRATS, oh my god, this will really stink:mf_dribble:
> So will have to do it when th OH is out, and does not see what I am doing with the blender.
> ...


Greatly appreciate your kind words but it's Jeff Lemm who deserves the credit, or perhaps you for trying it with fish.  Let me know how it goes down.


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## gecko101 (Dec 18, 2008)

amazing, got a leopard gecko version? lol


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## Taxemic (Aug 13, 2008)

gecko101 said:


> amazing, got a leopard gecko version? lol


Never heard of one, you could be the first.


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## Lizard Loft (Mar 1, 2008)

Reckon i could feed this to my Jungle runner also known as a Dwarf Tegu? (Amevia Ameiva), they are like little colourful tegus and have that same heavy pointed head, well mine does anyway. 

Could i add calcium powder (limestone flour to the mix instead of using bone, dont think our blender will grind it down)

I dont have any pics but here is one from google, mine had a heavier head but its pretty similar tbh.......









Currently he is on a diet of gutloaded locusts and goes through 3 boxes of large locusts a week, so it would work out alot cheaper and i would love to do it, also as he is only small compared to all your monitors and tegus a batch your size will last me the best part of 6months or even longer!!


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## Lizard Loft (Mar 1, 2008)

Hi all, 

Ive just made a small amount of this for my jungle runner, the whole lot cost me £1.50 so its definately worth trying i thought, if he takes to it ill let you all know 

Ive used, Natural wheat bran, Ox Liver, egg whites and calcium supplements as there no bones was in the ingredients, Hopefully my jungle runner will take to it and i can try it properly with poultry, lambs heart, multivitamin supplements etc : victory:

How often can this be fed to monitors do you reckon? would it make up the majority of a staple diet?


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## gecko101 (Dec 18, 2008)

Who thinks that this should be a sticky


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## Lizard Loft (Mar 1, 2008)

gecko101 said:


> Who thinks that this should be a sticky


Definately should !!!!!!!

I just tried my jungle runner with some this morning and he loved it, started munching away, should all be gone by the time i next go to check on him :2thumb:

Ill be trying poultry next for sure : victory:


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## Taxemic (Aug 13, 2008)

Just adding some info regarding cooking as some people are confused about the issue - 

Microwaves selectively resonate with the hydrogen bond of water molecules. It won't even melt an ice cube cuz it's not water in molecular form. Anything 'cooked' in a microwave is basically boiled or steamed by the vaporised water.

Bones are constructed of a network of collagen, like a sponge in the shape of the bone. collagen also makes tendons and cartilage but in a bone, calcium phosphate is deposited along the collagen matrix, like concrete on rebar, and the bone becomes hard and stiff.

Metabolic Bone Disease is the disorder where proper calcium deposition fails and you get rubbery collagen instead of stiff bones.

In an oven bones are baked. The collagen matrix loses moisture to shrink the collagen, tightening it up and making it strong like prestressed concrete.

In a microwave the bones are lightly steamed, which swells the collagen and makes them more digestible.

The ground up particles of bone are completely dissolved in digestion and never emerge in the stool.

But there are really 2 reasons to nuke it
- kill off some micro-organisms
- make the albumin of the eggwhite congeal so the mess is no longer porridge - so it can be sliced and handled.

It takes a bit of a knack to get it just right in the centre without crisping the edges - i do multiple 10 second cycles and turn it over between times until it resembles a moist burger.

I really only have bone meal in case I could not get chicken carcass. It's included in the recipe for that and also because it's what the original Jeff Lemm recipe called for.


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

*MODS - Please make this a Sticky*

Just started to use this for my kimberley - which isnt called Tracy - loved it. I am going to persist and experiment - I am really happy that I can get a known and controlled ammount of nutrient into my monitor. Will keep feeding roaches and locust as well for the hunting stimulus:2thumb:


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## Taxemic (Aug 13, 2008)

sharpstrain said:


> Just started to use this for my kimberley - which isnt called Tracy - loved it. I am going to persist and experiment - I am really happy that I can get a known and controlled ammount of nutrient into my monitor. Will keep feeding roaches and locust as well for the hunting stimulus:2thumb:


Wow, thank you very much for trying it. I'm glad you and your animal are happy!


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## Issa (Oct 13, 2006)

*This should either be a sticky or saved on most monitor owners favourite net page!*

Quick question.... Is there any reason you can only add the whites of the eggs as opposed to the whole thing? I seem to remember reading somewhere that the shells are high in calcium thats all. As for the yokes (please feel free to correct me if I have got the total wrong end of the stick here) don't some people feed adult monitors whole raw eggs? Great recipe btw, will be trying it out on my ackie shortly.:2thumb:


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## R.E.P.07 (May 20, 2007)

does it matter if there is small pink bits left on it, think i cooked it for long enough


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## Lizard Loft (Mar 1, 2008)

R.E.P.07 said:


> does it matter if there is small pink bits left on it, think i cooked it for long enough


I know, u'll probably want the OP to answer, i just kept cooking mine until all the pink bits where gone completely, the outside edges where a dark brown by the end and the rest was just light brown 

i thought it was better to be safe then sorry : victory:


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## Taxemic (Aug 13, 2008)

Issa said:


> Quick question.... Is there any reason you can only add the whites of the eggs as opposed to the whole thing? I seem to remember reading somewhere that the shells are high in calcium thats all. As for the yokes (please feel free to correct me if I have got the total wrong end of the stick here) don't some people feed adult monitors whole raw eggs? Great recipe btw, will be trying it out on my ackie shortly.:2thumb:


The reason that the egg shell is not included is that it is calcium carbonate, Savs don't need calcium carbonate - they need calcium phosphate which is bone and pure bone is better. The yolk is very fatty so sometimes I'll feed that as a treat but very sparingly, I never feed it raw but some people do. Thanks for the good feedback, do post how you get on. 



R.E.P.07 said:


> does it matter if there is small pink bits left on it, think i cooked it for long enough





Lizard Loft said:


> I know, u'll probably want the OP to answer, i just kept cooking mine until all the pink bits where gone completely, the outside edges where a dark brown by the end and the rest was just light brown
> 
> i thought it was better to be safe then sorry : victory:


Yeah you're right. Sometimes there are very small pink bits but that shouldn't matter as after it's cooked it is no longer raw. It should look exactly how Lizard Loft desribed it - it should look like a healthy, moist burger.


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## Lizard Loft (Mar 1, 2008)

Taxemic said:


> Yeah you're right. Sometimes there are very small pink bits but that shouldn't matter as after it's cooked it is no longer raw. It should look exactly how Lizard Loft desribed it - it should look like a healthy, moist burger.


A burger is exactly how it is, but just a thick sqaure block lol, i cut mine into small peices and put them in 2 ice cube trays, i just get one out the night before feedin and let it slowly defrost in the fridge, they are great,

so is this thread and it should be a sticky


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## Leon23 (Feb 25, 2009)

Will be trying this with my sav tomorrow, should save me some money and be better for her.

Thanks


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## R.E.P.07 (May 20, 2007)

gave my bosc some loaf, he loves it woop woop. Thanks for the post :no1:


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## RoyalPython89 (Jul 15, 2008)

this is how its ment to be made


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## dragonjoanne (Feb 20, 2009)

hi guys im sure this has been asked before but do u think this sort of mix would be ok for a tegu ?? hes growing quick and im keen he has a mixed diet. hes alas not keen on his veg at the moment he eats round them lol


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## ackie123 (Jan 18, 2009)

wow cant wait to try this :no1:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

dragonjoanne said:


> hi guys im sure this has been asked before but do u think this sort of mix would be ok for a tegu ?? hes growing quick and im keen he has a mixed diet. hes alas not keen on his veg at the moment he eats round them lol


Then I'd personally stop feeding him any insects/meat UNTIL he is reliably eating his vegetables.

It does worry me that monitors that are largely insectivorous in the wild are being fed on a high-meat, low-insect diet. I would never use this diet for my animals except as a very occasional treat (and then I would not be cooking it); whole prey and specifically whole insect prey is my preference. 

Expensive, yes, but biologically appropriate.


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## dragonjoanne (Feb 20, 2009)

well sylar loves his meatloaf hes only little still so we chop it up mouth size and put in his bowl with his fruit and veg he pigs it down 
we have been mixing his diet up and he seems to enjoy .he has mice ,meatloaf ,fish, crickets , diff worms , locusts as well as lots of furit and veg everyday he never knows what he getting till the bowl is put down


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## EvilDes (Jun 16, 2008)

I made some of this at the weekend for our bosc, and he absolutely loved it! Couldn't get enough of it.

Soooooo cheap to make aswell! Great addition to his diet! : victory:


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## Ailsa (Aug 15, 2009)

Ok Im going to be a soft girl here lol
can you make it with some other meat than the chicken carcass?
I mean does it need to have the bones? could I just use minced chicken or other minced meat?
I wish the rep shop sold this stuff save me from making it lol


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

If you must feed vertebrate prey (which monitors apparently do not generally eat in the wild) then it MUST have the bones in it for calcium in the right percentages and proportions. I personally don't recommend this meatloaf recipe *at all* (the appropriate diet for a bosc is what they eat in the wild - insects and snails with the occasional egg) but if you're going to do it you do need to carefully balance the nutrients so that it is equivalent to feeding whole prey items.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> If you must feed vertebrate prey (which monitors apparently do not generally eat in the wild) then it MUST have the bones in it for calcium in the right percentages and proportions. I personally don't recommend this meatloaf recipe *at all* (the appropriate diet for a bosc is what they eat in the wild - insects and snails with the occasional egg) but if you're going to do it you do need to carefully balance the nutrients so that it is equivalent to feeding whole prey items.



This is quite an interesting paper, and the thing that is most apparent for me is the indirect behavioural aspect of a predominantly insect based diet, high activity levels. Monitors are very active, due to having to hunt for difficult to catch small prey items. 

For me this is one of the potential down falls of a 'meat' or vertebrate based diet, it does not facilitate this habit. However I would suggest that it may be possible, if you can effectively replicate this behaviour by making the food source difficult to find/ 'capture'.

Also worth noting (and obviously most of you know) monitors fed primarily on meat based diets can become obese easily. With this in mind it is very important not to overfeed, this is especially clear when you consider the reduced activity levels associated with this diet.

Andy


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> This is quite an interesting paper, and the thing that is most apparent for me is the indirect behavioural aspect of a predominantly insect based diet, high activity levels. Monitors are very active, due to having to hunt for difficult to catch small prey items.
> 
> For me this is one of the potential down falls of a 'meat' or vertebrate based diet, it does not facilitate this habit. However I would suggest that it may be possible, if you can effectively replicate this behaviour by making the food source difficult to find/ 'capture'.
> 
> ...


 
In particular boscs which for some reason seem to take to captivity in a v. lazy way... Possibly the diet is responsible for this or a response to being in captivity. 

I must admit i do prefer feeding my bosc warm locusts and watching him hunt and chase them down rather than a rodent feeding which takes him no effort for a much larger intake of calories. 

Another thing i dislike is the limited invert availabilty pretty much limited to roaches, GALS, Locusts, morios when monitors reach a certain size.


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## jemmawigg (Mar 13, 2010)

*Meatloaf*

How much meatloaf should be fed to a Bosc of 8/9 months???


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## Sneak (Feb 27, 2010)

jemmawigg said:


> How much meatloaf should be fed to a Bosc of 8/9 months???


Depends on his size. In captivity a Bosc can reach somewhere between 3 and 3ft within 6 months, it's only when he begins to reach full size that it becomes more important to monitor his diet.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

jemmawigg said:


> How much meatloaf should be fed to a Bosc of 8/9 months???


I personally would feed exactly none.

Insects, snails, invertebrate prey of all descriptions, yes.

Processed, cooked, incomplete food substitute, no.


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## thereptileman (Nov 30, 2010)

could you change the multi vit tablet for a spoonful of nutrobal ? i was thinking off adding some calcium dust aswell and maybe some mealies etc into this for my bosc when shes older  what do you guys think???


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## i.am.idc (Nov 29, 2009)

I was thinking about this diet earlier what percentage could this make up as part of a balanced diet?
:2thumb:


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

i.am.idc said:


> I was thinking about this diet earlier what percentage could this make up as part of a balanced diet?
> :2thumb:


The same roughly the same percentage as rodents/eggs/turkey mince etc.


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## 12843 (Nov 16, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> I personally would feed exactly none.
> 
> Insects, snails, invertebrate prey of all descriptions, yes.
> 
> Processed, cooked, incomplete food substitute, no.


Non industrially frozen too.


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## bollocklegs (Sep 19, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Then I'd personally stop feeding him any insects/meat UNTIL he is reliably eating his vegetables.
> 
> It does worry me that monitors that are largely insectivorous in the wild are being fed on a high-meat, low-insect diet. I would never use this diet for my animals except as a very occasional treat (and then I would not be cooking it); whole prey and specifically whole insect prey is my preference.
> 
> Expensive, yes, but biologically appropriate.


not really ! yes most if not all monitors eat an insect diet when young but as adults will eat almost anything scavange of carcases rodents , birds, eggs, i mean i dont really see a 10 ft plus komodo chasing and hunting down a inch cricket ?


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

bollocklegs said:


> not really ! yes most if not all monitors eat an insect diet when young but as adults will eat almost anything scavange of carcases rodents , birds, eggs, i mean i dont really see a 10 ft plus komodo chasing and hunting down a inch cricket ?


Komodos are unusual in that they specialise purely in large vertebrate prey : victory:


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## bollocklegs (Sep 19, 2009)

ShaneLuvsMonitors said:


> Komodos are unusual in that they specialise purely in large vertebrate prey : victory:


there not that much different to a fully grown black-whitethroat


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

bollocklegs said:


> not really ! yes most if not all monitors eat an insect diet when young but as adults will eat almost anything scavange of carcases rodents , birds, eggs, i mean i dont really see a 10 ft plus komodo chasing and hunting down a inch cricket ?


No, I don't see a ten-foot Komodo chasing down crickets (or locusts, or roaches).

Pardon the assumption, but I* also* don't see any private UK keepers that own Komodos.

I see lots of UK keepers that own largely invertebrativorous (yes, I made that up, to account for the fact that other groups are taken, not just insects) monitors, though... A Bosc is not a Komodo dragon, it is a Bosc, and has a different diet. A Nile is not a Komodo, it is a Nile - and it has a different diet, even if it might be similar in size.

Research has shown that the older a Bosc gets, the MORE inverts it eats in the wild.


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

I just thought this deserved to be bought back to life


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## Barlow (Sep 23, 2010)

sharpstrain said:


> I just thought this deserved to be bought back to life


No need. Start your own. Then we might be able to clear the utter crap that was stated on this one.


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

Barlow said:


> No need. Start your own. Then we might be able to clear the utter crap that was stated on this one.



:lol2: which mine or everybody elses :lol2: 

Learned a lot since this thread.


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

Or maybe i havent :lol2: 

apparently this thread isnt as old as i remembered :lol2:


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## Barlow (Sep 23, 2010)

ShaneLuvsMonitors said:


> Or maybe i havent :lol2:
> 
> apparently this thread isnt as old as i remembered :lol2:


 TBH shane I just saw the mods post about Niles and inverts and thought WHAT! Niles thrive on a 100% rodent diet. FACT. I hate people spurting shit about what they read when they have zero experience with captives, or even zero experience talking to people successful with captives. What works for herps in the wild does not mean you can't make captivity work without it.

Note to self... stop preaching to preachers!:lol2:


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

Barlow said:


> TBH shane I just saw the mods post about Niles and inverts and thought WHAT! Niles thrive on a 100% rodent diet. FACT. I hate people spurting shit about what they read when they have zero experience with captives, or even zero experience talking to people successful with captives. What works for herps in the wild does not mean you can't make captivity work without it.
> 
> Note to self... stop preaching to preachers!:lol2:


:lol2: Hmmm they also specialise in stealing croc eggs... i dont think anyone provides those as a staple :lol2:


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

Barlow said:


> TBH shane I just saw the mods post about Niles and inverts and thought WHAT! Niles thrive on a 100% rodent diet. FACT. I hate people spurting shit about what they read when they have zero experience with captives, or even zero experience talking to people successful with captives. What works for herps in the wild does not mean you can't make captivity work without it.
> 
> Note to self... stop preaching to preachers!:lol2:



ahhh ssthisto actually does a lot of research like the rest of us hes picked out what he likes bets and feels works... 

hes also got a fairly old nile kept purely on inverts cant remember if hes posted pictures of it or not... 

*shrugs*


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Barlow said:


> I hate people spurting about what they read when they have zero experience with captives, or even zero experience talking to people successful with captives.


I do in fact have some experience with Niles; I've kept one for the last five years, and Diablo will be twelve this year.

Yup, he's invert-fed.


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## metalface93 (Feb 14, 2012)

My 2 year old male bosc loves this, I want to make the fishy meatloaf as he loves fish  

Just amazing thank you!!


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