# Torn in two - between a snake and a lizard



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Hi All,

I wondered if I could get some opinions? I'm thinking about getting either a lizard or a snake - in particular, either a Leo or a Royal. But I'm not sure which would be the best. I've never kept exotics before but have lots of experience with domestics and used to be a vet nurse, so they'd be well looked after. As you can see from my signature we have plenty of other pets. Will there be issuses keeping snakes and small rodents/birds? Any advice or opinion welcomed.

Regards,

Anthony


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## beardie&crestielover (Feb 20, 2010)

if you are starting with reptiles a leo is proably the best starter and one of the most popular ( i used to have one) they are very handable but only from around 8 o'clock onwards (there nocturnal) and are one of the cheapest to provide food for they literally eat around 5-13 crickets a day witch have to be dusted and grow from 7-10 inches (males are bigger)
a royal python is a complete different subject ....
they grow from 4 to sometimes even 10 foot (my mate has one thats 10 foot) and do get quite heavy with the birds and small mamals i am not sure do cockatiels and budgies pluck there feathers ? if so they probably would i would not think any problems with the small rats


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

beardie&crestielover said:


> if you are starting with reptiles a leo is proably the best starter and one of the most popular ( i used to have one) they are very handable but only from around 8 o'clock onwards (there nocturnal) and are one of the cheapest to provide food for they literally eat around 5-13 crickets a day witch have to be dusted and grow from 7-10 inches (males are bigger)


You say used to have one, can I ask what happened to it? Are they suseptible to illness? I know they can be quite long lived so just wondered.


beardie&crestielover said:


> a royal python is a complete different subject ....
> they grow from 4 to sometimes even 10 foot (my mate has one thats 10 foot) and do get quite heavy with the birds and small mamals i am not sure do cockatiels and budgies pluck there feathers ? if so they probably would i would not think any problems with the small rats


Why do you ask if the birds pluck? Are you saying they will get stressed with the snake around? You should get your mates snake in the Guiness book of records. I think the largest to date was just over 6ft  
Cheers for the advice.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Wolflore said:


> You say used to have one, can I ask what happened to it? Are they suseptible to illness? I know they can be quite long lived so just wondered.


Kept correctly leopard geckos are very hardy - teenaged leos are not unheard of, and they have a longer potential lifespan than that. BTW: An adult leopard gecko should not be fed daily - they can become obese that way. We have adult males who are fed once or twice a week.



> Why do you ask if the birds pluck? Are you saying they will get stressed with the snake around? You should get your mates snake in the Guiness book of records. I think the largest to date was just over 6ft
> Cheers for the advice.


Our African Grey parrot never had a problem with snakes/lizards in the house. She didn't want to go near them - but she was not stressed by their presence, and certainly didn't start feather-picking.

A ten-foot royal python has been measured using a badly marked six-inch ruler.... or isn't a royal python.

With regards to the choice you've got in front of you... how do you anticipate dealing with periodic fasts? Will it worry you if your animal doesn't feed (but otherwise shows no signs of illness or distress)? 

I have both species, and they're different but both lovely... my answer would be to have both


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## Stavros88 (Dec 6, 2008)

beardie&crestielover said:


> they grow from 4 to sometimes even 10 foot (my mate has one thats 10 foot)


Sure he does, bet it's been lying next to him in bed at night in preparation for eating him too... :bash:


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> Our African Grey parrot never had a problem with snakes/lizards in the house. She didn't want to go near them - but she was not stressed by their presence, and certainly didn't start feather-picking.


That's good news, if and parrot is going to get stressed it's a grey! 



> With regards to the choice you've got in front of you... how do you anticipate dealing with periodic fasts? Will it worry you if your animal doesn't feed (but otherwise shows no signs of illness or distress)?


That side of it is something I'm aware of. Forearmed is forewarned as they say. I've been doing plenty of research on both species. Geckos aren't particularly known for their fasting though are they? I've read that Royals can potentially go for a year without food, but yes, it may still panic me a bit haha



> I have both species, and they're different but both lovely... my answer would be to have both


Who knows! Perhaps in the future I will. Thanks for the advice.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

I have two male leopard geckos that, when they were actively being used as breeders, would fast for six weeks in spring.


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> I have two male leopard geckos that, when they were actively being used as breeders, would fast for six weeks in spring.


That sort of information is very good to know, and you don't normally find it in books! Cheers.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

beardie&crestielover said:


> if you are starting with reptiles a leo is proably the best starter and one of the most popular ( i used to have one) they are very handable but only from around 8 o'clock onwards (there nocturnal) and are one of the cheapest to provide food for they literally eat around 5-13 crickets a day witch have to be dusted and grow from 7-10 inches (males are bigger)
> a royal python is a complete different subject ....
> they grow from 4 to sometimes even 10 foot (my mate has one thats 10 foot) and do get quite heavy with the birds and small mamals i am not sure do cockatiels and budgies pluck there feathers ? if so they probably would i would not think any problems with the small rats



Hugely confused as to why the budies and cockies have anything to do with keeping reptiles??? what do you mean by 'get heavy with'??
whenever men tell you the size of something, take a bit off - for example... "yeah... my snakes 9inches" (means its only 5inches)
The only reason I wouldnt recommend a royal as a first herp is because of their irritating habit of fasting for weeks at a time. They will feed beauifully for a few months and then stop for a while. Males are often terrible for this. Its not really a problem but is a bit scary if you dont know what to expect. A corn snake would be a better starter or a cali king snake perhaps.


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Twiglet said:


> A corn snake would be a better starter or a cali king snake perhaps.


But surely that would just leave me with a snake that I've practised on but don't really want? Or are all snakes much of a muchness?


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## beardie&crestielover (Feb 20, 2010)

LOL sorry guys i went to go measure my mates he was bluffing !!!! idiot:devil: lol its something like 5 and a half foot and i used to have a leopard gecko but my brother wanted it really badly so i let him take it to his mums and by the 'get heavy' bit i meant asin theyre heavy snakes for there size


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Wolflore said:


> But surely that would just leave me with a snake that I've practised on but don't really want? Or are all snakes much of a muchness?


It depends. If you like the *traits* of a royal - heavy-bodied, slow, liable to explore slowly when calm and ball up rather than going scatty when frightened, the colour, the pattern, and so on - then yes, getting a corn snake will probably leave you disappointed.

I'd say you really ought to go and MEET and HANDLE a bunch of snakes of lots of different species and see which ones you like best (if you haven't already). There's no substitute for being able to directly compare them.


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

And there in lies the rub. Where do you go to meet and greet lots of different snakes and lizards? I have met, handled and admired various royals, but have not had much contact with other species to be honest - except a black snake (corn or king I'm not sure) which was ages ago and who was very grumpy and struck a lot. I like the slow nature of the royal, and the way it looks.

That said, I also like the inquisitive nature of the Leo.

Are there any great differences between the sexes in either the Leo or royal?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

A good reptile shop is one option - or asking if there is anyone in your area who has a substantial number of animals and is willing to show you around. If you were up in West Yorkshire, I'd invite you 'round mine 

The black snake was not likely to have been a corn - it could have been a king, pine or black ratsnake, and yes, some of those can be a bit feisty (although I have a soft-as-anything-once-he-knows-there's-no-food Mexican Black Kingsnake).

If you like slow calm snakes, there are a number of choices - you don't have to feel *limited* to a Royal if you find you preferred, say, a rosy boa instead.

Male leos are usually heavier than females, and you *cannot* keep males together at all.
Female leos are often smaller and lighter, and can often be housed with other females (although they sometimes fight and it can sometimes become quite serious, even fatal). 
I don't LIKE keeping males of any species with females of any species year-round.

Male royal pythons are often smaller than females, but I haven't noticed any personality differences specific to males over females - you get hissy, feisty individuals of both sexes, and you get nice individuals of both sexes.


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

I may well take you up on that offer if I haven't made up my mind by July, I'll be up your way for a wedding. Haha

Had a look at those Rosy Boas. That is one ugly snake! Going to have to wander off and have a look at the Shop thread...

Thanks very much for the info, from what you're saying it seems like you are leaning more towards snake rather than lizard...?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Aww, Rosies aren't ugly - they come in several different colour variants, by the way... mine was a little mint-chocolate-chip sausage of a snake, and he had the most velvety-soft scales of any snake I've handled before or since. I miss the little booger.

And if you're up here in July and you haven't made up your mind, just let me know the weekend before so I can make sure my front room's presentable 

I wouldn't like to give you either impression (oh, yeah - if you like leopard geckos, look into African Fat-Tailed geckos, which are just as easy to keep and gorgeous, too) as I like both snakes and lizards; I find the snakes easier to maintain on a daily basis, but I also have more to do with the snakes than my partner does (he takes care of the lizards)


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

I guess there is the whole feeding cycles side of their upkeep to think about. Do you house yours in Vivs or RUBs? The other thing I'm thinking about is whether to get an adult or a hatchling. I'm certainly one for taking on 'rescue' animals and so the idea of taking on an adult doesn't bother me too much - though the idea of watching something grow up is very appealing. Also, what sort of prices should I be expecting to pay? I'm seeing such a disparity at the moment - from free to 80 quid for a Leo and from free to a few hundred quid for a royal. I'm only looking at the 'natural' phases of either at the moment.

So many questions... Cheers


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Vivs or RUBs? Both  We have some animals who do better in vivs (including two royals) and some who do better in RUBs (including some royals). 

If it's your first reptile, I'd personally suggest a grown-on youngster or a yearling - past the fragile baby stage, but you'd still get to see some of the growing and changing.

Free for royals and leos is unusual; you'd expect to get wildtype of both for around £40-£50 in the yearling age range (although a female royal especially will be more expensive - they're usually priced around £10 per 100g because of their value to breeders).


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## laurencea (Aug 28, 2009)

i agree with the suggestion to go and see/meet various reptiles.

i was after a gecko and went to the Maidstone rep show. i am now a very happy owner of a Royal! i saw him and fell in love as he is a bit of a character - he was busy tring to prise the lid off his box. i asked questions, read up and a week later became a snake owner and don't regret it.

i still might get a gecko though - maybe a crestie.


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

The free ones were Gumtree specials. With the usual adverts claiming all sorts of stuff that you obviously have to take with a very large pinch of salt! Caveat empator...

I know what you mean about falling for animals, we've got a house full! But that's why I'm trying to make an informed decision and not rush into anything. After all, what ever I get is going to be around for a long time. I'm not the sort to move things on, once they're in, they're in for good. I swing from day to day, hour to hour, between snake and lizard, and back again!


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## laurencea (Aug 28, 2009)

it's a tough decision and only you can make it!

i can see the appeal in geckos and, as i said, still consider getting one. i chose the royal because of his character and looks - he was the best one at the show, 'only' a normal, but the best £40 i spent. once i'd seen him i didn't waver (i was the same as you), i just wanted him.

good luck with whichever you choose.


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Thanks Laurencea,

It is a hard choice to make indeed. Maybe I'll be the same. When you know, you know I guess, it's the same with women lol 

They're all fascinating creatures, inverts included here, that I could spend hours just watching. Sadly I'll probably never own an invert due to my partner being petrified of them! But they're amazing none the less.

I'll make the right decision one day. Thanks for all your help everyone. It's been informative.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Wolflore said:


> Sadly I'll probably never own an invert due to my partner being petrified of them!


Will your partner be able to cope with the live insects fed to a gecko?


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> Will your partner be able to cope with the live insects fed to a gecko?


Well, the weird thing is that she really likes the gecko, but is a little put off by the idea of having to live feed! I'd've thought it the other way round and she'd have a problem with feeding mice or rats. The psychology goes that as they are already dead then it's not so much of an issue! Go figure. So I guess I am leaning slghtly to the Royal...but as you said, maybe I'll just get both eventually! Lol


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Wolflore said:


> Well, the weird thing is that she really likes the gecko, but is a little put off by the idea of having to live feed!


You could consider something like an omnivorous lizard instead of a strict insectivore - perhaps a blue-tongued skink - if you like the idea of a lizard but want the majority of the food NOT to be insects.


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

I showed her a pic of the skink and she wasn't keen at all. Haha

I think it will probabaly be snake...and probably Royal...

Now to go away and start researching heat mats etc. Any good sites/stores/etc you guys can recommend? Or any traders on here? Also, any pointers as to people/places/manufacturers/etc to avoid would also be greatly appreciated. Is it best to buy from places like this or from shops when it comes to getting my eventual rep?

Thanks once again.


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Any recommended reading?


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## imitebmike (Jun 22, 2008)

dunno if any one has suggested it...but you might wanna consider crested or gargoyle geckos...can be fed their special powdered diet exclusively


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## strictly_scales (Sep 10, 2008)

beardie&crestielover said:


> if you are starting with reptiles a leo is proably the best starter and one of the most popular ( i used to have one) they are very handable but only from around 8 o'clock onwards (there nocturnal) and are one of the cheapest to provide food for they literally eat around 5-13 crickets a day witch have to be dusted and grow from 7-10 inches (males are bigger)
> a royal python is a complete different subject ....
> they grow from 4 to sometimes even 10 foot (my mate has one thats 10 foot) and do get quite heavy with the birds and small mamals i am not sure do cockatiels and budgies pluck there feathers ? if so they probably would i would not think any problems with the small rats


Wow, theres some stunning advise here, ROFL

My mate has an 18 foot Cornsnake- he keeps it in the bath.


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

imitebmike said:


> dunno if any one has suggested it...but you might wanna consider crested or gargoyle geckos...can be fed their special powdered diet exclusively


Talk about weird lookin' little critters! The missus isn't keen on those at all. Though there is one close up pic I found which looked like a Leo with false eyelashes! Very cute!

I think out of all the lizards I've seen the Leo has it.


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

I just thought I'd update this thread. So Ssthisto, I've now got a tortoise, some phasmids, and just picked up today, an adult rescue Leo - wild phase. There is also a baby Royal on the horizon, but enough on that one for now.


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Oh, and I have to hide the crickets!! The poor little mites were starving when they arrived. Don't shops feed them!?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Good choice there - looking forward to seeing some photos of your new Leo 

And no, the shops don't really feed crickets - they live longer if they're kept dry, and it's hard to keep them dry if you're feeding them, particularly if you're providing plenty of moisture. When you get 'em home, it's a good idea to put 'em into a bigger container and then feed them up.


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

I've purchased a clip-loc cornflake dispenser from Tesco this afternoon which I'm hoping it will be tall enough to reduce the likelihood of pingers! They've had some fruit and veg put into the cricket boxes, dusted with calcium. I have to put a load of holes in to the dispenser before I make it their new home. Don't want to suffocate the poor little buggers. I've got a couple of pics which I will put up as soon as I've uploaded them.


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

This is the little fella, well I have been told he's male but haven't done too much investigating just yet.










He has a bit of retained shed at the end of a couple of toes. The guy I've got him from took him in as a rescue but had no luck getting it off! I'm letting him settle for a bit first then I will give him a good warm bath and then try and get it off with some cotton buds. Any tips would be appreciated. His name is Thomas Geckoson...not my choice...but I do kind of like it 

Can anyone see the pic? I'm getting the blue box with a question mark of death!?


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

That's better, I think...


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## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Well, as you said in the beginning, why not go for both, I now have. Got a pretty little reduced pattern Enchi cross (yeah, yeah, a Normal haha) Royal python. Hatched September. Third feed day with me today so I'll get some photos of her soon. It's good to be patient, do your research and then get what you want.


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