# why not show reptiles?????



## Alans_Reptiles (Jun 2, 2007)

i would just like to get evey ones opinion on weither they thought that reptile shows would be a good idea....and what i mean my reptile shows is breeding reptiles eg corn snakes.. to a set standard and exibiting them

here are my thoughts on the matter 

i think that the shows that are one the now are great but... they are not rely SHOWS they are more like a market. i must admit u can get somegreat deals at the shows but that another problem the reptiles have to much enphisis on money. dont get me wrong i dont think anything should be changed but i think that a new part of reptile keeping should be opened up where ppl are striving to breed the best animal they can not for a high price tag but for a silly little rosette or a medal or cup

almost every other domesticated animal is exibited in one way or another and i dont see what reptiles should be very different...i just think that breeding an animal to a standards is a great thing especialy if it beifints the animals health


so i would just like you views and opinions on this and hope my little thred makes ppl think "why not show reptiles"


----------



## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

Corn Sanke Fan Club tried it to years on the trot, very poor turn outs, whether this is because it was purely corn snakes I don't know.


----------



## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

I think it's because of the comercial side of things, putting on an event like that costs money, with the low (relatively when compared to other things) numbers of herp keepers out there it's a very select audience.

Also with dog/cat shows etc you get non keeprs coming to look, while you'd get a few you wouldn't get as many.

I know it's been done before without much success.

Lot of money for someone to risk for very little benefit.

Mason


----------



## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

The Corn Snake Fan Club was a good idea, poorly implemented IMO. I was bitterly disappointed about it as it could be the best thing ever to happen to the corn snake fancy - and I desperately hope that something similar (but learning from the CSFC's mistakes) starts up again soon.

Breeding to a standard and exhibiting would provide many plus points, IMO.
They would encourage regular meetings between fanciers that are more popular (since they have a main focal point - the actual show) and less likely to fizzle out over time, as sadly many regular meetings are prone to do.

They would provide a natural place for new people to come into snake keeping and learn from others who own these animals, and a basis for them to chat to experienced owners and learn. A sense of community!

Shows inevitably end up with people keeping and sharing pedigree and bloodline information, which in the corn snake market is lacking - and this is something which often proves important, if not just simply interesting, when breeding animals.

An expectation of quality would arise. If I know both the pewter parents of the pewter baby I'm buying have done exceptionally well at shows, then when I'm looking for a baby pewter I'm more likely to go to that person since they obviously has good stock.

It encourages breeding for different reasons. Not just "the latest morph", ten recessive genes in one snake - it's about perfecting and improving what we've got. I imagine striking varieties such as Miamis, aneries, amels, would do well, and if something does well in shows, you tend to find people will breed them!

More understanding and acceptance from the community at large. Breeding animals for a standard and showing them is a very British hobby, and an accepted eccentricity. Buying and selling is not a business in showing - it's just a hobby, and we can prove it as we're only buying and selling to maintain our lines. Transport of animals for commercial reasons? It's not - it's for a hobby, and as such exempt from laws on commercial transport of animals as the cat fancy is.

I base this around corns because it's corns that I'm mainly interested in ... but really, it could work on any level, as long as standards are set and agreed upon by fanciers. Corn snakes and leopard geckos are the obvious choices because of the size, the range of morphs and the prices (people can afford to have lots of them!). But I see no reason why, if people wanted to, it couldn't encompass most species ...


----------



## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

quixotic_axolotl said:


> I think it's because of the comercial side of things, putting on an event like that costs money, with the low (relatively when compared to other things) numbers of herp keepers out there it's a very select audience.
> 
> Also with dog/cat shows etc you get non keeprs coming to look, while you'd get a few you wouldn't get as many.
> 
> ...


Putting on shows on the level that snakes would demand is not a hugely expensive proposition. It's a select audience, sure - but no more select then some other groups. Gerbils, hamsters, rats ... there are hundreds of small animal shows through the UK each year, and none of them with a bigger, more varied, or more passionate audience then reptiles.

You do get a few people in to look round small animal shows and with appropriate advertising, you would with snake shows too.


----------



## Sueg65 (Aug 14, 2006)

Have to say that we agree with everthing that Toyah has said. We personally like the ideas of a show being a show where the breeder is showing off their offspring and not just as a money making scheme. Having said that it doesn't mean that we are against the selling and buying of reptiles at shows, but showing the quality of the stock should be paramount to the amount of money that could be made from the animals. 
And to also give keepers of reps the opportunity to meet with other breeders and share ideas.​


----------



## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

It must be remembered that we keep a wide variety of species as snake keepers (and lizard keepers) which is at odds with most other hobbyist communities. Rat shows are pretty much all for Rattus Norvegicus (fancy rats) for example, not for many different species.

The only snakes kept in large enough numbers for shows to be worth it are corns and royals and I would personally not attend a show full of either snake. You could try to include other species but all I can see happening is there being 200 corns, about 30 rat snakes/pythons and about 2 of every other species!

The corn market is also more driven by discovering new morphs than with perfecting what we currently have and unfortunately the market dictates what people try to breed.

I used to be involved in chinchilla breeding and it is completely different in terms of what people want to buy and therefore what is bred. People look for animals from good show stock with the correct conformation and coat colour, not the most unusual or wacky colour combination. This just isnt the case in the reptile world.


----------



## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

PendleHog said:


> It must be remembered that we keep a wide variety of species as snake keepers (and lizard keepers) which is at odds with most other hobbyist communities. Rat shows are pretty much all for Rattus Norvegicus (fancy rats) for example, not for many different species.
> 
> The only snakes kept in large enough numbers for shows to be worth it are corns and royals and I would personally not attend a show full of either snake. You could try to include other species but all I can see happening is there being 200 corns, about 30 rat snakes/pythons and about 2 of every other species!


Yes, this is true - but I don't think there's any way of getting around the fact that there will be more of the more common species in any one place - but that doesn't mean others are excluded. Even at normal buy/sell swap meets such as Doncaster you end up with about 200 corns, about 30 rats/pythons, and two of everything else as that's what people own, breed, buy, and sell.

At a cat show there are seven sections - Persian, British, Burmese, Siamese, Foreign, Semi-longhair, and Oriental (I appreciate they're all the same species - but probably closer to snakes in that there's not really much interbreeding between the breeds!). There are thousands and thousands of the big breeds registered every year, and so at each show there will be loads of Persians/Brits/Burms/Siam. My own breed, only 200 or so are bred each year and I'm lucky to see one other one at a show - but it's an opportunity to show not just new cat owners but cat owners of other breeds my breed, why it's special, what it's like, as well as a fun day out with people who might like a different breed, but still enjoy cats! Plus, of course, every cat, whether it's from the most popular breed, or the rarest, has an equal chance of winning Best In Show, or a high award.

Of course, if only corn people wanted to show, then the shows would end up being more driven and focussed towards corns - it may be that only corn snake people for some reason want to do it. What I am saying is that the more people who get involved or are interested, then the wider the scope for the shows. I do imagine it would be easier for smaller snakes though - corns, milks, rats, kings, royals, other small boas and pythons. I can't imagine a retic show, unless they just did youngster classes! 



PendleHog said:


> The corn market is also more driven by discovering new morphs than with perfecting what we currently have and unfortunately the market dictates what people try to breed.
> 
> I used to be involved in chinchilla breeding and it is completely different in terms of what people want to buy and therefore what is bred. People look for animals from good show stock with the correct conformation and coat colour, not the most unusual or wacky colour combination. This just isnt the case in the reptile world.


Exactly. And hopefully showing would temper that down somewhat - if there is opportunity and reward from breeding the most perfect Miami with the richest saddles and the palest background colour, or the best quality, most diffused granite, then people would. At the moment the only reward seems to be cash (if you're lucky), and a fleeting "kudos" from being recognised as the first to breed something new, if you're lucky enough to breed something new that's interesting.


----------



## LeeH (Jan 26, 2005)

i bet it would be hell doing the standards for ball/royal pythons..seems theres no such thing as a standard normal..all granites,tiger bands,reduced,hi gold and other names about for slight differences in patterning
i think an array of colubrid speices would be really good if there was another one


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

The first thing to do if we WERE going to set up shows for reptiles is create the "standard" - never mind the colour, since that comes later - but the appropriate body condition and overall well-being, as well as having a temperament suited to handling and captivity.

Any animal can be judged on "Is it healthy, in good weight and of good temperament?" 

Once you've written that, then you can start working on deciding what, for example, the IDEAL Miami corn or the IDEAL Hybino leopard gecko should look like. Obviously, species with fewer morphs would stick with the 'conformation' class - but species with more morphs could be judged against other members of their morph, then against other members of their species, then of similar species, then overall. Same as a dog show.

Yeah, some dog shows have one or two breeds where there's just one or two animals of a breed... but they STILL compete against the other dogs in their breed group and if they're good enough, against the best of the other breed groups. "Best Lizard" and "Best Snake" would obviously be the top prizes


----------



## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

the British tarantula society do that at there expos, they have comps for best in show, best aboreal, African and others


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

So it's been proven it can be done.

And certainly, if the clubs arranged a Hobbyists sale/show... they could set aside some space for the SHOW part of it, and ask for volunteer judges before the event. 

The more we show we're a HOBBY and less that we're wholesale animal traders, the better.


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

I would not want to get involved in another snake one. Far too many pitfalls.


----------



## pam b (Mar 3, 2005)

like being thrown in a snakepit eh Steve? Passes Steve a rusty spoon so he can poke his eye out with it : victory:


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Just way too much to think about Pam.

Heating the tanks, making sure temperature variances aren't too great. One of the problems with the CSFC shows was that the snakes were bing moved from one temperature to another in a very short space of time... then to another. and if you have more than one species... you have to cater for their different needs.

Now if it was a big one with different rooms for different species and each were in decorated vivariums so basically there was no difference to them being there or at home... you may have something.

But it should be educational rather than competitive and show the animals in naturalistic vivariums in my humble opinion.


----------



## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

IMO that sort of show is more about the inflated egos of the owners, and not about the animals.... 'I've got a nicer xxxxxxx than you so nerrrrr!!!' - big deal! I have my own xxxxxxx and think its perfect - i don't need a load of others to tell me how nice or not _they_ think it is


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

eeji said:


> IMO that sort of show is more about the inflated egos of the owners, and not about the animals.... 'I've got a nicer xxxxxxx than you so nerrrrr!!!' - big deal! I have my own xxxxxxx and think its perfect - i don't need a load of others to tell me how nice or not _they_ think it is


Odd, then, that you've got very distinct ideas of what morphs "should" look like - that you have an ideal in your mind for them...

Because THAT's the point of a show - to be able not just to say "My blahblah is better than yours - healthier and closer to standard" but to be a buyer who can see that "Eeji's Blahblahs have won three years in a row, beating out all the other Blahblahs because they look more like a PERFECT blahblah than anyone else's... so I'm going to buy a Blahblah hatchling from Eeji!"


----------



## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> Odd, then, that you've got very distinct ideas of what morphs "should" look like - that you have an ideal in your mind for them...
> 
> Because THAT's the point of a show - to be able not just to say "My blahblah is better than yours - healthier and closer to standard" but to be a buyer who can see that "Eeji's Blahblahs have won three years in a row, beating out all the other Blahblahs because they look more like a PERFECT blahblah than anyone else's... so I'm going to buy a Blahblah hatchling from Eeji!"


Don't you need a DWA license for Blahblahs, so couldn't really exhibit them at a show? 





<gets coat...."TAXI!">


----------



## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> Odd, then, that you've got very distinct ideas of what morphs "should" look like - that you have an ideal in your mind for them...
> 
> Because THAT's the point of a show - to be able not just to say "My blahblah is better than yours - healthier and closer to standard" but to be a buyer who can see that "Eeji's Blahblahs have won three years in a row, beating out all the other Blahblahs because they look more like a PERFECT blahblah than anyone else's... so I'm going to buy a Blahblah hatchling from Eeji!"


of course i want my hatchlings to be perfect (imo), but i don't _need_ others to tell me. If I think they are perfect, then they are perfect (in my eyes). Yes it would be nice to be told I have perfect animals by others, but unless i'm in it for the money (which I'm not) i don't. If Breeder X has what the public percieves as nicer animals but i think mine are nicer then I'll be a happy bunny, even if I have to sell them at a lower price.



Fixx said:


> Don't you need a DWA license for Blahblahs, so couldn't really exhibit them at a show?
> 
> 
> <gets coat...."TAXI!">


theres always one!!!!


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Fixx said:


> Don't you need a DWA license for Blahblahs, so couldn't really exhibit them at a show?
> 
> <gets coat...."TAXI!">


Nah, that's _Blahberus beeble_ - the common Blahblah is completely harmless 

Certainly, though, if I knew that someone was consistently breeding EXTREMELY diffused Granites with great pink colouring - and they had the rosettes to prove it - then I'm a lot more likely to buy from them than I am to buy from someone who has F2 Anerythristic Diffused that haven't been selectively bred to be the best.


----------



## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

my turn to get my coat and shout a taxi! 

I did think of an example to come back at you with, but thinking about it, it doesn't work!....

if my idea of a perfect amel is bright orange with lots of white and thats what i breed for, but Joe Bloggs has bred the best in show which has no white at all, in my eyes MINE is more perfect.....
BUT!!!.......
Joe Bloggs would have entered his as a sunglow, whereas mine would have been entered as a....... 

Thinking even more about it, shows aren't a bad idea really, and yes, I'd probably attend one (whether as a 'spectator' or a 'competitor' i dont know yet!) :cheers:


----------

