# Excavator clay for leos?



## Geckogirl_88 (Apr 24, 2009)

Hi

Iv seen a couple of threadds regarding this stuff before but was just wondering if anyone used it for leopard geckos?

It's ZOO-MED Excavator clay. It appears a fine sand/clay which can be moulded when wet and then dried hard. (I'm assuming this is how it works as the product descriptions are a little vague)

I have my leos on kitchen roll as it's easy to clean and has no impaction risk.
However, once I move back home I will be building them all their own individual tanks, rather than keeping them in the (somewhat portable) RUB stack they are in now.

One of my leos is CONSTANTLY digging against the side of the plastic tank. Iv given him an extra large moist hide filled with eco-earth and he is always digging it up and making a mess. I'd like to give him a substrate he can dig in without too high a risk of impaction and i was wondering if this excavator clay could be the answer.
It can be moulded into hard shapes/tunnels so shouldn't be as "loose" as sand, but should still allow him to dig in places should he wish to do so. It would let him exhibit natural digging/tunneling behaviours too.

What do ppl think?
Ideally if it appears suitable I would like to use it in most/all of my leos' vivs.
Anyone used it before?
What's it like?
Think it sounds ok for leos?

xx


----------



## della.g (Nov 5, 2006)

I find it really difficult to keep any excavator clay clean. animals tend to go to the toilet in a tunnel and you have to destroy anything made from the clay to clean inside.Then the clay falls into the tunnels with the poo in and basically you have to either dry it all out and sieve it to find the poop or leave any buried poop in there to fester.

This i s only my experience with the stuff but someone else may have a solution.

Adele


----------



## Geckogirl_88 (Apr 24, 2009)

Hmm that is a valid point.
I may not add tunnels then for that reason lol.
So how exactly does it work btw, seen as you've used it?
Im finding it difficult to find any helpfull product descriptions
xx


----------



## della.g (Nov 5, 2006)

Basically you mix it with water and put it in the tank and let the animals make tunnels/caves with it before it dries. Or you build things yourself with it and leave it to set.

I'm really not a fan of it. Sorrry

Adele


----------



## Geckogirl_88 (Apr 24, 2009)

Ok. 
Does it crumble when it dries?
Does it feel quite fine/soft or is it rough?
xx


----------



## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

della.g said:


> I find it really difficult to keep any excavator clay clean. animals tend to go to the toilet in a tunnel and you have to destroy anything made from the clay to clean inside.Then the clay falls into the tunnels with the poo in and basically you have to either dry it all out and sieve it to find the poop or leave any buried poop in there to fester.


I tried it once in a spare viv (no tunnels though lol) but what I found was even though the leo poo was easy to scrape off any liquids soaked into the clay which meant physically removing that particular section on a regular basis to prevent bacterial build-up .... after a couple of weeks I ripped all of it out and lined the bin with it :whistling2::lol2:


----------



## bruceybonus18 (Dec 21, 2009)

ive used it before and it joined sleepy's in the tip it was :censor: in my opinion:lol2:


----------



## Geckogirl_88 (Apr 24, 2009)

hmmm so no good review then lol.
I mays till consider using it to build up different levels/hides etc, but not where there is moisture/feces.

How do ppl feel about the impaction risks when compared to sand?
Is there less "loose" stuff or does it just crumble anyway?

I just feel bad that my fave boy can't do what he loves. Im providing him with ladies lol, but he also loves digging. Iv used sand before but I was paranoid the whole time they were on it lol
xx


----------



## Pendragon (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi,

I've got it in my temp. Leo viv, and I'm going to put it in my new viv build. I wont be making tunnels with it, (I'm making underground hides, check out my viv build thread coming soon : victory it will be used as a subase to hold the plant pots in place. I'm toying with the idea of a dusting of sand on top, but not to sure yet.

I will mix it one part clay, and two parts sand, make it wet enough to mould, a bit like damp sand.

Good luck

Jay


----------



## Geckogirl_88 (Apr 24, 2009)

yeh Im thinking I could Build it up and over the hot hide, creating a kind of platau on top with a slop up to it, then just make lil hills everywhere. Also, Id put a little sand at the cool end of the tank (for easy scooping of poop) and have flat rocks (stolen from my local beach lol) dotted around for rubbing on when shedding/wearing down nails etc.
Id make sure they were fed away from the loose sand. Could they accidentaly chip out a chunk of clay when hunting crix do you think?

xx


----------



## Gaz_dbd (Apr 30, 2009)

im not 100% sure about this stuff, surely if it dries hard you are then preventing the animal from digging?

seriously though what is wrong with sand? if you get the right one (not calcium based) then sand is perfectly fine, your gecko has to eat a heck of a lot of sand in a short space of time for it to casue impaction, and most impaction by sand is down to not being provided enough food/nutrients,

sorry to rant, but me and my gf have been keeping reptiles collectively for over 12 years and never had a problem keeping a leo on sand


----------



## Geckogirl_88 (Apr 24, 2009)

I know it can work.
I just feel that my particuar leos dont do very well on it.
I have a couple of over-enthusiasts who tend to take in big mouthfulls of substrate, and another couple who have bad aim, so I prefer not to use sand. Also, it gets everywhere and Im never totally happy when I use it.

I think this stuff can still be burrowed into as the leos have claws and are surprisingly good little diggers, but it shouldn't be scooped up when hunting. At least that's my hope. 
Anyone else used it?
xx


----------



## Pendragon (Dec 8, 2008)

You are right about being able to mould it, I use sand in all my arid/desert vivs, but you can't make contours with it as it's constantly on the move, this is why I am starting to move over to excavartor clay.

I put some in my Beardie viv a couple of days ago to hold a plant pot in place;










It will be interesting to see if he digs it up.

I put more in my Leo viv today, here's a sneek peek : victory:










Right, now to put the grass in :2thumb:

Good luck

Jay


----------



## Geckogirl_88 (Apr 24, 2009)

Wow, that looks awesome 
Its closer to their natural environment too i should think, especially if I mix in some large rocks and some grass etc.
So a good review then at last?
Im keen to give it a try, unless anyone has had leos accidentally eat big chucks of it while hunting?
xx


----------



## Ghrim (Jul 14, 2018)

I just built this habitat for my daughter's leo.. Still needs to fully dry... there is definitely loose substrate around. When it's dry going to try and blow out the particles. Anyway our Leo is at least 6 mos old...hopefully it doesn't get impacted or cracked feet...


----------



## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Geckogirl_88 said:


> Hi
> 
> Iv seen a couple of threadds regarding this stuff before but was just wondering if anyone used it for leopard geckos?
> 
> ...





Geckogirl_88 said:


> hmmm so no good review then lol.
> I mays till consider using it to build up different levels/hides etc, but not where there is moisture/feces.
> 
> How do ppl feel about the impaction risks when compared to sand?
> ...





Geckogirl_88 said:


> Wow, that looks awesome
> Its closer to their natural environment too i should think, especially if I mix in some large rocks and some grass etc.
> So a good review then at last?
> Im keen to give it a try, unless anyone has had leos accidentally eat big chucks of it while hunting?
> xx





Ghrim said:


> I just built this habitat for my daughter's leo.. Still needs to fully dry... there is definitely loose substrate around. When it's dry going to try and blow out the particles. Anyway our Leo is at least 6 mos old...hopefully it doesn't get impacted or cracked feet...


There IS no risk of impaction if your viv is set up properly, even if they eat mouthfuls of substrate it will pass through in their poop. Please read this: Loose substrates & the myth of gut compaction. 

It is essential to provide a loose substrate of some kind, as leos need to be able to dig- this is one of their instincts. Sand/soil mix is fine- just don't use calci sand, as that really does cause impaction.


----------



## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Lucky Reptile do a desert sand substrate. Its a mix of sand, clay and soil. I'm using for my womas, as they are burrowers. It's available as outback (a red colour) and normal.


----------



## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Edit I actually just noticed this thread is ancient lol. 

There is actually still a lot of misconception in relation to intestinal impaction/compaction. 

It is important to differentiate injestion for actual impaction. The act of injesting particulates is actually a normal and natural behaviour exhibited by people and animals, this behaviour is called Geophagy. Consumption of soil, ground-up rock, mound earth, clay, and dirt is extremely common in mammals, birds, reptiles, and invertebrates. ... Geophagy is far more common in animals that rely predominantly on plant food and is more common in the tropics.

Some farmers deliberately provide the means for there animals to perform this behaviour for different reasons. 

There are many reasons this behaviour can occur in the vivarium, I feel the issue in itself that is somewhat handwaved by substrate advocates (admittedly I have been guilty of this too) is that intestinal impaction can occur from just about anything the animal can get its mouth around, sometimes the animal can cope with it itself, sometimes the parameters surrounding the environment are encouraging and compounding the issue further. 

Some examples I can think of with reptiles might be. 

1. Temperatures and thermal gradients. Sometimes animals may injest particulate to encourage passage time in the intestinal tract. The wild animal is exposed to a none stationary set of enviromental thermal conditions at different points, the behaviour can be expected in these instances. In captivity we do have the benefit of providing some constants and removing the negatives though, so really this should not occur in the captive living space across a (supposed voluntary thermal maximum and minimum range for the enclosure occupant) some call these ranges the POTZ, preffered optimum temperature zones. (Husbandry issue) 

2. Parasite Burdens. An excess of nematodes for example via stress or just poor cleanliness may cause an animal to intentionally go out of its way to eat rough materials to assist in easing the irritation in the intestinal tract, think of it as a form of self medication. Interestingly moreso though, with some species the opposite can occur like with herbivores, iguanas are known to act on this behaviour to take in microbes from the earth to assist them in digesting cellulose rich material and it is now thought that pinworms may actually play a more important role in there digestive efficiency than previously thought. In captivity we have the benefit of having reptile specialist vets and fecal analysis techniques and labs, if the numbers are out of control then this can easily be treated. (Failure to do this when expected is a husbandry issue) it is possible though protozoan parasites, such as coccidia and cryptosporidium can cause discomfort to reptiles and may further encourage the issue. 

3. Nutritional issues. Wild substrates are basically degraded rock and minerals. In times of seasonal hardship I do not find it hard to beleive some animals may intentionally eat substrates as a form of self supplementation, most reptile keepers give calcium the due attention due to its historic implications of declining it, in captivity we have the benefit of providing a wide varied and abundant diet year around, plus the added benefit of using multivitamin dusts. Really nutritional issues should not be occuring although I will say I remember well my first female iguana Minny taking her outside on warm summer days while she was gravid, the closer her time to laying came the less she would eat (naturally) eventually she ceased eating completely, but after laying the eggd and allowing her to attack my herb plots she would actually eat the soil in those plots by the mouthfulls despite having all the food/weeds in the world to choose from, I suspect she was doing this to recompensate her calcium levels, It resulted in me then caking her food in calcium and multivitmain dusts and viving her additional support of hydration from the spray bottle 4 times a day, within the week the behaviour had subsided. 

Just as a further throw in for interest though not related to geckos, the calcium to phosphorus ratio for reptiles is usually accepted to be a 2:1 ratio, iguanas in panama feed exclusively on the leaves of a tree called spondias mombin, a while ago I looked at a study (admittedly only one) which gave a ratio of the ca in the leaves and it wa much lower than a 2:1 but is otherwise considered a staple to this species, it stands to reason they can not simply just be feeding on this to acheive there huge sizes without being very very lazy. (Just an added point) they could be self supplementing with other sources and I will bet a substrate is one. 

4. UVB. Improper UVB or inappropriate wavelenghts of UVB can also effect calcium absorption which may cause the animal to start self supplementing as above in frustration. (Husbandry issue) 

5. I also beleive that over cramped stressful conditions may encourage certain excessive behaviours to the point they become dangerously abnormal, I have seen this a few times with new stock when I have worked in the pet trade and with some wc animals I have had, one mhd I had for example spent 2 weeks on the surface and one day I did catch him eating some of the soil when I went in to spray him down. 

There are many more possibilities but these should paint the picture. 

Over the years I have used and experimented with different substrate types, plain, manufactured, home mixed and more complicated substrates such as bio, I have all my preferences for what I choose to use (even though some of them are frowned upon by the majority of keepers) (such as calci sand, I try not to use it but would not particularly find it the end of the world to use it again. I never had any issue with that although I do understand some of the concerns others have with it. 

For example the passage time in the intestines can be slow so that an adequate volume of (any particulate source) injested before it occurs has the potential to cause blockage and could further be compounded by other enviromental factors. I personally see this issue as a very low risk with the implementation of a good hydration routine with the digestive system being hydrochloric, we are also taking into account muscle fibers/friction, movement traction, exposure to VTAs (volatile fatty acids) and processes such as thermal isomeriation, hydroxylation etc etc. Food quantities eaten, supplementation and utiliseable surface area within the dimension itself. 

In the event a sufficient enough digging depth could not be acheived in a manufactured vivarium, and looking now at one of my 4x18x18 vivs now (does not look promising for digging) I would have no issue compacting the particulate down. 

Admittedly there are better products on the market now too. 
Whether a plain, plain mix, or more complex substrate is provided I consider either a far superior option for many different reasons to that of just newspaper,tiles, lino. 

What I suppose I am more interested in hearing with calci sand demonisation is whether or not anyone has actually experienced impaction outside of the outlined issues mentioned above? :hmm:: victory:

I have also used excavator clay, it looks good at the time of doing it but like anything has its drawbacks and in my experience falls to bits in time and can be a ball ache to keep clean, still it can be fun to work with when designing hides I think.


----------

