# Exchanging animals in car park sting coming to BBC TV?



## Austin Allegro

A couple of months ago ahead of the EHS show in Norwich our club was approached by a journalist from the BBC who wanted to film at our show. In fact the producer on not getting a response from our chairperson tracked me down from my posts on here, facebook and my website rang me on the blower to plead her case. i.e. BBC impartiality is based on showing both sides of the issue. Don't know if it was the proper BBC down in London or the toy town BBC East in Norwich. Anyways by all accounts her interest had been aroused by the Kerfuffle, or in her words 'the controversy' over the June Donny show. She also stated that it was the intent to do a substantial piece on reptile shows for airing in the Autumn.

Perhaps those people who have got into the habit of show car park exchanges should consider the implications of being caught on camera in this way.


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## MCEE

Austin Allegro said:


> A couple of months ago ahead of the EHS show in Norwich our club was approached by a journalist from the BBC who wanted to film at our show. In fact the producer on not getting a response from our chairperson tracked me down from my posts on here, facebook and my website rang me on the blower to plead her case. i.e. BBC impartiality is based on showing both sides of the issue. Don't know if it was the proper BBC down in London or the toy town BBC East in Norwich. Anyways by all accounts her interest had been aroused by the Kerfuffle, or in her words 'the controversy' over the June Donny show. She also stated that it was the intent to do a substantial piece on reptile shows for airing in the Autumn.
> 
> Perhaps those people who have got into the habit of show car park exchanges should consider the implications of being caught on camera in this way.


Bit of sansationalist subject line, don't you think. I thought sensationalism was the remit of the animal rights lot or the cheap media, for consumption by the gullable public.

Maybe these BBC lot want to investigate the animal rights extremists or the idiots that import wild caught rare breed reptiles into the country. Unless the reporter specifically said she wanted to highlight exchanges happening in the carparks why use the subject line you did. Up to you of course, your thread.


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## Row'n'Bud

Oh grow up !!


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## MCEE

Row'n'Bud said:


> Oh grow up !!


<confused> Oh dear! Have I upset you? </confused>


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## geckograham

Row'n'Bud said:


> Oh grow up !!


I'm afraid I agree that the title of this thread is very misleading!  From what the op has said, the woman from the Beeb didn't mention car park exchanges or sting operations in any way, shape or form. Therefore the title does seem a bit sensationalist to me. Maybe the op just got over excited, maybe there is some attention seeking going on, maybe paranoia?

Anyway, I say let them film!


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## Natrix

Regardless of how any one wants to read the title of this post, the subject of the post is correct.
Austin Allegro is spot on, A BBC team is working on a program and they are talking with the APA. With this happening, some one getting caught on camera swapping things in the car park of a show will very likely find themselves on TV and involved in a legal investigated and they may well find themselves having to explain to their fellow reptile keepers why all further shows have been stopped.

All of the clubs and societies (who are the show organisers) are working together under the FBH banner to protect the future of our shows and they are being backed by their members and hopefully all those that enjoy attending the shows. The last thing any of us wants is one idiot to mess it all up for every one else. 

Gordon Glasson
FBH Vice Chairman


With the above in mind the FBH has released the following statement below.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...882957-exchanging-animals-car-park-shows.html

*Exchanging of animals in the car park at shows* 
As I am sure you are aware there have been significant “issues” with breeders meetings being held due to the activities of those who oppose us keeping and breeding the animals that we do! Whilst there have been many, many issues raised one of them is they facilitate “illegal” trade, implying that such meetings facilitate the trade in smuggled [illegal] animals, which of course is completely untrue. 

However, people handing over bags containing snakes, or other reptiles from the boot of the car is a gift to our opponents as it perpetuates this myth! This is why no shows permit the transfer of ownership outside the premises; there are also other potential legal implications. 

I fully appreciate that people meeting and exchanging animals at such events can be very convenient, however, under the circumstances that we find ourselves today it is simple not acceptable. It is unfair and unacceptable to jeopardise shows simply because someone did not want to book a table and would rather hand over the animals outside to save a few pounds!

The grounds will be patrolled by show organisers, Local and National Authorities, anyone caught will be removed from the premises and risk being prosecuted. I would therefore ask people not to be selfish and irresponsible and comply with the rules of the show. 

Chris Newman
Chair - Federation of British Herpetologists


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## MCEE

Natrix said:


> A BBC team is working on a program and they are talking with the APA.


And in their "unbiased" approach to reporting have they approached the FBH, IHS, or any other prominent organisation for herp keepers and retailers? If so, the reason they have given for this documentary is?

Until the reason for the documentary is known then the title of this thread is, and will remain, sensationlist. Just because the BBC have communicated with the APA means absolutely nothing. It does not mean the APA will necessarily accommodate them. After all, they could be investigating the animal rights lobby and their "less than honest" way they conduct themselves. Maybe the documentary is another one about "people with crazy pets".

If the BBC are, indeed, investigating a documentary about a "sinister" side to the reptile trade, and those who keep reptiles then fine, keep your wits about you, but until we know this don't get so caught up in the paranoia.


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## Natrix

MCEE said:


> And in their "unbiased" approach to reporting have they approached the FBH, IHS, or any other prominent organisation for herp keepers and retailers? If so, the reason they have given for this documentary is?.


Yes they have contacted the FBH and the IHS and several of the societies but for some strange reason they don't seem to like to tell you exactly what sort of program they are trying to put together.
Now I'm just guessing here but given that most of the various news media have been getting very excited over the APA's latest report on the reptile trade I'm guessing they are not looking to put together a program on how nice reptile keepers are.



MCEE said:


> Until the reason for the documentary is known then the title of this thread is, and will remain, sensationlist. Just because the BBC have communicated with the APA means absolutely nothing. It does not mean the APA will necessarily accommodate them. After all, they could be investigating the animal rights lobby and their "less than honest" way they conduct themselves. Maybe the documentary is another one about "people with crazy pets".


As I started by saying,
*"Regardless of how any one wants to read the title of this post, the subject of the post is correct". *
And as we won't know what the program will be about until it appears on the TV, lets try not to provide them with any bonus footage of some idiot playing pass the parcel in a show car park.




MCEE said:


> If the BBC are, indeed, investigating a documentary about a "sinister" side to the reptile trade, and those who keep reptiles then fine, keep your wits about you, but until we know this don't get so caught up in the paranoia.


No one is paranoid. This is not the first time we have been in this position and it won't be the last. This is an attempt to advice all those attending shows that if they choose to swap/trade items in the car park at a show they may well find themselves smiling down the lense of a camera. Once that happens I can guarantee you that the focus of the program won't be on those crazy people and their crazy pets.

*Now as I see it, this post is about spreading important information about a current situation relating to those people on this forum that attend shows. *

*The post is NOT here to provide people who sit under bridges with nothing better to do with there time, with some thing to nit pick about. *
*So befor any one starts tapping at their key boards, please stop and think for a moment, Is what you are about to write going to add to the important information already in this post? *(If yes then we all want to read it)*or are you just really trying to increase your post count with worthless drivel.*

Gordon Glasson
FBH Vice Chairman


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## MCEE

Natrix said:


> Yes they have contacted the FBH and the IHS and several of the societies but for some strange reason they don't seem to like to tell you exactly what sort of program they are trying to put together.


Erm, did the FBH or IHS not think to ask what the programmme was about? Was a reply even given to the BBC by the organisations that front this hobby? If a reply was given to the BBC, what was it? Considering that the FBH and IHS had no idea what the programme was about then any reply would surely not have been very well informed, would it? If a reply was not given to the BBC, why not?



> As I started by saying,
> *"Regardless of how any one wants to read the title of this post, the subject of the post is correct". *
> And as we won't know what the program will be about until it appears on the TV, lets try not to provide them with any bonus footage of some idiot playing pass the parcel in a show car park.
> 
> No one is paranoid. This is not the first time we have been in this position and it won't be the last. This is an attempt to advice all those attending shows that if they choose to swap/trade items in the car park at a show they may well find themselves smiling down the lense of a camera. Once that happens I can guarantee you that the focus of the program won't be on those crazy people and their crazy pets.


 If this TV programme is going to be as sinister as everybody thinks it is then why are the organisations that purport to have the best interests of the hobby at heart not investigating further as to why the BBC are showing such an interest. Maybe the FBH just want to sit back to "see what happens" just in case it is not as bad as the paranoia suggests or are they happy to let the BBC shoot the hobby like we were fish in a barrel.


> *Now as I see it, this post is about spreading important information about a current situation relating to those people on this forum that attend shows. *


This thread was not about the rights or wrongs, rules, regulations and laws that govern how we partake in our hobby. That is for other threads. However, this thread was originally intended to sensationalise a situation based on speculation and assumption, thus playing on paranoia.

The whole hobby is running around like headless chickens, at the moment, trying to second guess every move the APA and their ilk are likely to make. However, as this thread has shown, it seems the FBH are happy to second guess rather than find out what is actually happening so that we can defend ourselves appropriately.


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## Drayvan

Natrix said:


> Yes they have contacted the FBH and the IHS and several of the societies but for some strange reason they don't seem to like to tell you exactly what sort of program they are trying to put together.


If you were contacted as a society, what exactly did they want/ask? surely that would give a slight insight into the content of the programme, as well as a small hint as to what they may have asked the APA.

I've got my fingers crossed for an interesting unbiased bit of tv .... but with the BBC i wouldnt put money on it :whistling2:


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## MCEE

Drayvan said:


> If you were contacted as a society, what exactly did they want/ask? surely that would give a slight insight into the content of the programme, as well as a small hint as to what they may have asked the APA.
> 
> I've got my fingers crossed for an interesting unbiased bit of tv .... but with the BBC i wouldnt put money on it :whistling2:



That is if it ever gets to production. *If* it does, and *if* it is an anti reptile keeping documentary, then it sounds very much like we will here a lot of the the phrase "...declined to comment" or "...declined to be interviewed" when referring to the organisations that head our hobby.
*If *this programme is what the FBH and others think it is going to be then surely they should be biting the hand off the BBC for a chance to make the APA look like idiots and to be able to big up the hobby.
After all the BBC, being the BBC, *must* present an unbiased programme so any approach by the BBC to the organisations concerned must have outlined the reasons behind the program.


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## Austin Allegro

MCEE said:


> That is if it ever gets to production. *If* it does, and *if* it is an anti reptile keeping documentary, then it sounds very much like we will here a lot of the the phrase "...declined to comment" or "...declined to be interviewed" when referring to the organisations that head our hobby.
> *If *this programme is what the FBH and others think it is going to be then surely they should be biting the hand off the BBC for a chance to make the APA look like idiots and to be able to big up the hobby.
> After all the BBC, being the BBC, *must* present an unbiased programme so any approach by the BBC to the organisations concerned must have outlined the reasons behind the program.


Good job the FBH employed the services of one of the UK's highest profile private detectives and have obtained some damming personal information about the very few members of the APA. From shoplifting, fraud and deception, firearms offences to child molestation they are proving to have quite a chequered past. Lets hope the BBC dig deep on the APA.


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## geckograham

Natrix said:


> Yes they have contacted the FBH and the IHS and several of the societies but for some strange reason they don't seem to like to tell you exactly what sort of program they are trying to put together.
> Now I'm just guessing here but given that most of the various news media have been getting very excited over the APA's latest report on the reptile trade I'm guessing they are not looking to put together a program on how nice reptile keepers are.
> 
> 
> 
> As I started by saying,
> *"Regardless of how any one wants to read the title of this post, the subject of the post is correct". *
> And as we won't know what the program will be about until it appears on the TV, lets try not to provide them with any bonus footage of some idiot playing pass the parcel in a show car park.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one is paranoid. This is not the first time we have been in this position and it won't be the last. This is an attempt to advice all those attending shows that if they choose to swap/trade items in the car park at a show they may well find themselves smiling down the lense of a camera. Once that happens I can guarantee you that the focus of the program won't be on those crazy people and their crazy pets.
> 
> *Now as I see it, this post is about spreading important information about a current situation relating to those people on this forum that attend shows. *
> 
> *The post is NOT here to provide people who sit under bridges with nothing better to do with there time, with some thing to nit pick about. *
> *So befor any one starts tapping at their key boards, please stop and think for a moment, Is what you are about to write going to add to the important information already in this post? *(If yes then we all want to read it)*or are you just really trying to increase your post count with worthless drivel.*
> 
> Gordon Glasson
> FBH Vice Chairman


Well Mr Glasson has just ensured that I have made my last donation to the FBH! What kind of a way is that to talk to people? Everyone who has an opinion that differs from the official party line is a troll are they? I didnt "choose" the read the subject line in any way, I just read what was there. As it turned out, it was kind of like those posters that have "SEX" in massive letters and very small print below saying "Now that I have your attention..."

Mr Glasson goes on to claim that something that happened in the last couple of weeks could be the motivation for a Beeb reporter to make contact a couple of MONTHS ago. That Tardis the use in Dr Who must be real!

I am starting to doubt if any reporters have made contact at all. Is anyone expected to believe that a reporter conducting an undercover sting asks for permission first? Did Donal MacIntyre approach C18 and say "Hey, mind if I film a few of your meetings lads? I'm with the BBC and we want both sides of the story"??!!??

So, given the disgusting attitude of Mr Glasson and the way this thread has been used to attack anyone raising an opinion he doesn't like, might I suggest that he allows Chris Newman to be the SOLE spokesperson for the FBH? Mr Glasson is clearly easily rattled and that is no good thing when dealing with a highly organised AR group which I'm sure treats its benefactors much better than this.


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## geckograham

Austin Allegro said:


> Good job the FBH employed the services of one of the UK's highest profile private detectives and have obtained some damming personal information about the very few members of the APA. From shoplifting, fraud and deception, firearms offences to child molestation they are proving to have quite a chequered past. Lets hope the BBC dig deep on the APA.


The FBH needs to play those kind of cards MUCH closer to their chests (if this is true).


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## Natrix

geckograham said:


> Well Mr Glasson has just ensured that I have made my last donation to the FBH! What kind of a way is that to talk to people? Everyone who has an opinion that differs from the official party line is a troll are they?.


I suggest you read my post again. I requested that people didn't just post drivel for the sake of increasing their post count. The FBH, as well as myself will always listern to all opinions. If you have something to discuss either start your own post, PM one of us or send an e-mail. 
I also said in my post 
_"Is what you are about to write going to add to the important information already in this post?(If yes then we all want to read it)"_

Should I assume that as you have taken the post as a direct insult you consider that what you have to say is not important?



geckograham said:


> I didnt "choose" the read the subject line in any way, I just read what was there. As it turned out, it was kind of like those posters that have "SEX" in massive letters and very small print below saying "Now that I have your attention..."
> 
> Mr Glasson goes on to claim that something that happened in the last couple of weeks could be the motivation for a Beeb reporter to make contact a couple of MONTHS ago. That Tardis the use in Dr Who must be real!.


The first attack against the trade from APA came out in April, It was called *A review of captive exotic animal-linked zoonoses*
Journal of Environmental Health Research Volume 12 Issues 01 | The Chartered Institute of Environmental Health . It came out in time to cause all the problems at the Doncastor show. And it was a little while after this that the BBC started making phone calls.
The more recent report you mention *PET HATE Experts call for an end to the exotic pet trade - www.societyofbiology.org*
Was indeed not released until the 17 of August. While it clearly did not start the BBC's interest in the Reptile hobby it has certainly added fuel to the fire.
No Tardis needed thank you.



geckograham said:


> I am starting to doubt if any reporters have made contact at all. Is anyone expected to believe that a reporter conducting an undercover sting asks for permission first? Did Donal MacIntyre approach C18 and say "Hey, mind if I film a few of your meetings lads? I'm with the BBC and we want both sides of the story"??!!??


They are not asking for permission to conduct an under cover sting, they are requesting interviews and permission to film at several of this years shows. For some strange reason they don't go into detail about the under cover stuff.



geckograham said:


> So, given the disgusting attitude of Mr Glasson and the way this thread has been used to attack anyone raising an opinion he doesn't like, might I suggest that he allows Chris Newman to be the SOLE spokesperson for the FBH?.


I think I've already covered this in my first reply to this post above.



geckograham said:


> Mr Glasson is clearly easily rattled and that is no good thing when dealing with a highly organised AR group which I'm sure treats its benefactors much better than this.


 If you want to know how the AR groups treat their benefactors I suggest you try going onto their web sites and posting your points of view on there. 

Gordon Glasson
FBH Vice Chairman


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## Austin Allegro

geckograham said:


> Well Mr Glasson has just ensured that I have made my last donation to the FBH! What kind of a way is that to talk to people? Everyone who has an opinion that differs from the official party line is a troll are they? I didnt "choose" the read the subject line in any way, I just read what was there. As it turned out, it was kind of like those posters that have "SEX" in massive letters and very small print below saying "Now that I have your attention..."
> 
> Mr Glasson goes on to claim that something that happened in the last couple of weeks could be the motivation for a Beeb reporter to make contact a couple of MONTHS ago. That Tardis the use in Dr Who must be real!
> 
> I am starting to doubt if any reporters have made contact at all. Is anyone expected to believe that a reporter conducting an undercover sting asks for permission first? Did Donal MacIntyre approach C18 and say "Hey, mind if I film a few of your meetings lads? I'm with the BBC and we want both sides of the story"??!!??
> 
> So, given the disgusting attitude of Mr Glasson and the way this thread has been used to attack anyone raising an opinion he doesn't like, might I suggest that he allows Chris Newman to be the SOLE spokesperson for the FBH? Mr Glasson is clearly easily rattled and that is no good thing when dealing with a highly organised AR group which I'm sure treats its benefactors much better than this.


Blimey Graham I must say you are coming across as a bit of a big girls blouse :lol2:


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## Austin Allegro

Well at least that Dan bloke who rides Matt Allright around on the motorbike won't be partaking after his false benefits claims.


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## bbav

MCEE said:


> After all the BBC, being the BBC, *must* present an unbiased programme so any approach by the BBC to the organisations concerned must have outlined the reasons behind the program.


 :lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:
Sorry but that has to be one of the funniest posts I've seen on this forum!
If you really think the BBC is unbiased you really need to do some research.
They have for at least the past 10 years followed whatever party line they think will get them brownie points from whoever is in power at the time.


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## MCEE

Natrix said:


> I suggest you read my post again. I requested that people didn't just post drivel for the sake of increasing their post count. The FBH, as well as myself will always listern to all opinions. If you have something to discuss either start your own post, PM one of us or send an e-mail.


But this is a public forum. The nature of it means that anyone can post whatever they like as long as it's legal and within forum rules. If anyone wants to post an opinion within the context of the thread why should you or the FBH tell us otherwise. Maybe it is to try and curtail remarks that may be less than complimentary to the organisation.



> I also said in my post
> _"Is what you are about to write going to add to the important information already in this post?(If yes then we all want to read it)"_


Why must anyone *add* information? People are quite at liberty to reply and comment on the posts already made, as they see fit - it is a public forum. If you or anyone else wants to ignore these replies then do so but do not come on here telling us what we can or cannot post just because it does not fit in with your ideal.




> The first attack against the trade from APA came out in April, It was called *A review of captive exotic animal-linked zoonoses*
> Journal of Environmental Health Research Volume 12 Issues 01 | The Chartered Institute of Environmental Health . It came out in time to cause all the problems at the Doncastor show. And it was a little while after this that the BBC started making phone calls.
> The more recent report you mention *PET HATE Experts call for an end to the exotic pet trade - www.societyofbiology.org*
> Was indeed not released until the 17 of August. While it clearly did not start the BBC's interest in the Reptile hobby it has certainly added fuel to the fire.


Again, you base your argument on assumption and speculation. Where is the hard evidence of what the BBC want to portray?



> They are not asking for permission to conduct an under cover sting, they are requesting interviews and permission to film at several of this years shows. For some strange reason they don't go into detail about the under cover stuff.


*And what have been the replies given to the BBC? And what were the reasons for those replies?*



> If you want to know how the AR groups treat their benefactors I suggest you try going onto their web sites and posting your points of view on there.


Hardly a public forum, though, is it?.


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## MCEE

geckograham said:


> So, given the disgusting attitude of Mr Glasson and the way this thread has been used to attack anyone raising an opinion he doesn't like, might I suggest that he allows Chris Newman to be the SOLE spokesperson for the FBH? Mr Glasson is clearly easily rattled and that is no good thing when dealing with a highly organised AR group which I'm sure treats its benefactors much better than this.



I agree that there should be only one "public" spokesperson" but Mr Newman can be just as dismissive of opinion.

I think the the FBH, as a whole, are getting a little bit too self important. They need to be careful they do not alienate too many of those whom they purport to represent. Don't get me wrong, the sentiment is there but if they want to be the figurehead of the hobby they need to embrace questions and criticisms with professionalism, decorum and be supportive of others right to opinion, especially in a public forum.


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## Janine00

MCEE said:


> Hardly a public forum, though, is it?.


Thought facebook was a public forum?? Try posting anything on there, even if it is just asking a polite question giving some details of why you are interested in their answers and it will be deleted often within minutes, as has been proven many times over and not just by people being rude or obnoxious on there. 

Many people have tried to engage with the APA in many ways and many times over the years but have found that unless you are prepared to both LISTEN AND AGREE with them, they do not want to hear anything you have to say. Try it yourself and see what their response is the first time you actually question anything they say.


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## geckograham

Natrix said:


> I suggest you read my post again. I requested that people didn't just post drivel for the sake of increasing their post count. The FBH, as well as myself will always listern to all opinions. If you have something to discuss either start your own post, PM one of us or send an e-mail.
> I also said in my post
> _"Is what you are about to write going to add to the important information already in this post?(If yes then we all want to read it)"_
> 
> Should I assume that as you have taken the post as a direct insult you consider that what you have to say is not important?
> 
> 
> 
> The first attack against the trade from APA came out in April, It was called *A review of captive exotic animal-linked zoonoses*
> Journal of Environmental Health Research Volume 12 Issues 01 | The Chartered Institute of Environmental Health . It came out in time to cause all the problems at the Doncastor show. And it was a little while after this that the BBC started making phone calls.
> The more recent report you mention *PET HATE Experts call for an end to the exotic pet trade - www.societyofbiology.org*
> Was indeed not released until the 17 of August. While it clearly did not start the BBC's interest in the Reptile hobby it has certainly added fuel to the fire.
> No Tardis needed thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> They are not asking for permission to conduct an under cover sting, they are requesting interviews and permission to film at several of this years shows. For some strange reason they don't go into detail about the under cover stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I've already covered this in my first reply to this post above.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to know how the AR groups treat their benefactors I suggest you try going onto their web sites and posting your points of view on there.
> 
> Gordon Glasson
> FBH Vice Chairman


More of the same from Mr Glasson I see! I wasn't personally insulted, I just find your attitude to be very objectionable. So I objected.


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## geckograham

Austin Allegro said:


> Blimey Graham I must say you are coming across as a bit of a big girls blouse :lol2:


Really? Why? :hmm:


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## MCEE

Janine00 said:


> Many people have tried to engage with the APA in many ways and many times over the years but have found that unless you are prepared to both LISTEN AND AGREE with them, they do not want to hear anything you have to say.


A bit like certain organisations who post on RFUK sometimes.


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## Row'n'Bud

and again....Grow up !!


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## Dan_S

*Just a thought....*

Just read through this thread (and one of the associated "academic publications" at a glance) and something comes to mind that might be worth adding to the debate:

W.r.t. APA article published in April 2012 (‘A review of captive exotic animal-linked zoonoses’), the authors imply that all Cryptosporidium (genus) are the pathogens responsible for cryptosporidiosis (a rather unpleasant gastro-intestinal illness). The article conveniently fails to mention the particular species of Cryptosporidium that cause the "99.9%" of cases of cryptosporidiosis; namely C.parvum (associated with sheep and cattle) and C. hominis (humans, rats, warm blooded mammals... not reptiles!).

For those who have been unlucky enough to have had a crypto outbreak or have unknowingly brought an infected animal into their collection, the species C. serpentis and C. saurophilum will probably be familiar names. These species of Cryptosporidium are known (and documented) to be the main cause of cryptosporidiosis in reptiles, but there is no evidence to support the transmission of these to humans which then result in cryptosporidiosis. 

For a peer-reviewed article, this seems a pretty serious omission of fact, that if intentional, serves to "scare-monger" the public and public health professionals rather than educate them. From a tinpot charity such as the APA, sadly I guess this is to be expected, though very irresponsible. To publicise this however, and their many other statements of shoddy science, would help to discredit the APA to the public and put some real science out there. Something we really need to start doing!

The Doncaster show incident earlier this year highlights the need for more done to engage with the wider public (and, it would seem, with Doncaster council) to provide the correct information and challenge groups such the APA when they spurt this kind of nonsense. Should the Beeb actually publish the documentary and talk to the FBH, this might be a good point to raise....


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## Row'n'Bud

Quite a few years back dear old auntie beeb produced a lovely cuddly little show about parrots, keepers happily and proudly showed off their much loved pets and their tricks, all was lovely when mixed in with footage from the wild......
Then, a shot of a wild senegal, wings clipped by a machete, pegged to the ground screaming, attracting other senegals to come to investigate only to be caught on mass with a net, boxed tightly into wooden crates and then flown off to the trade..........next thing you know airlines refuse to transport birds and public opinions on pet parrots get bashed......all this narrated by David Attenborough so people listened !!
TV peeps never like to give away their full agenda to lull you in and give them total freedom of editing to suit their own needs in your own words, they also run in fear of the opposition stealing their idea and releasing a similar show at the same time.

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO BE THAT FACE ON CANDID CAMERA ????????


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## Austin Allegro

Dan_S said:


> Just read through this thread (and one of the associated "academic publications" at a glance) and something comes to mind that might be worth adding to the debate:
> 
> W.r.t. APA article published in April 2012 (‘A review of captive exotic animal-linked zoonoses’), the authors imply that all Cryptosporidium (genus) are the pathogens responsible for cryptosporidiosis (a rather unpleasant gastro-intestinal illness). The article conveniently fails to mention the particular species of Cryptosporidium that cause the "99.9%" of cases of cryptosporidiosis; namely C.parvum (associated with sheep and cattle) and C. hominis (humans, rats, warm blooded mammals... not reptiles!).
> 
> For those who have been unlucky enough to have had a crypto outbreak or have unknowingly brought an infected animal into their collection, the species C. serpentis and C. saurophilum will probably be familiar names. These species of Cryptosporidium are known (and documented) to be the main cause of cryptosporidiosis in reptiles, but there is no evidence to support the transmission of these to humans which then result in cryptosporidiosis.
> 
> For a peer-reviewed article, this seems a pretty serious omission of fact, that if intentional, serves to "scare-monger" the public and public health professionals rather than educate them. From a tinpot charity such as the APA, sadly I guess this is to be expected, though very irresponsible. To publicise this however, and their many other statements of shoddy science, would help to discredit the APA to the public and put some real science out there. Something we really need to start doing!
> 
> The Doncaster show incident earlier this year highlights the need for more done to engage with the wider public (and, it would seem, with Doncaster council) to provide the correct information and challenge groups such the APA when they spurt this kind of nonsense. Should the Beeb actually publish the documentary and talk to the FBH, this might be a good point to raise....


I also seem to remember that over the years there have been a few instances of crypto being inflicted on the UK human population by the shoddy and less than adequate maintenance carried out by the water companies. So crypto delivered straight to your house through the tap.


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## Dan_S

Not so sure about that (coming from an environmental science/public health background) - crypto in treated drinking water is very rare compared to other sources of outbreaks. The last crypto outbreak that was related to a water company (actual cause still unclear) was Northampton 2008 with Anglian water. Should note though, this would have been C. parvum or C. hominis rather than C. serpentis or C. saurophilum. 

Outbreaks tend to be associated with bodies of water where you have a large flux in people coming into contact with it, eg.swimming pools, recreational bodies of water such as sports lakes, and also catchments which feed from agricultural land amongst others. This determine the species of crypto involved also. 

Crypto tends to be chlorine resistant (therefore happy in swimming pools) but not in treated water supplied from water companies where they use things like sand filters to remove oocysts and UV or ozone to deactivate oocysts. 

Also, private water supplies (untreated water) are another big source of outbreaks. Plenty of good info out there to read up on....

Anyway this is going a little off topic. The point is, your regular domestic cat or dog is a far more likely vector of crypto of the sort that will result in in cryptospiridosis - something that kind of scuppers the APA's anti-reptile keeping agenda.


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## Chris Newman

Dan_S said:


> Just read through this thread (and one of the associated "academic publications" at a glance) and something comes to mind that might be worth adding to the debate:
> 
> W.r.t. APA article published in April 2012 (‘A review of captive exotic animal-linked zoonoses’), the authors imply that all Cryptosporidium (genus) are the pathogens responsible for cryptosporidiosis (a rather unpleasant gastro-intestinal illness). The article conveniently fails to mention the particular species of Cryptosporidium that cause the "99.9%" of cases of cryptosporidiosis; namely C.parvum (associated with sheep and cattle) and C. hominis (humans, rats, warm blooded mammals... not reptiles!).
> 
> For those who have been unlucky enough to have had a crypto outbreak or have unknowingly brought an infected animal into their collection, the species C. serpentis and C. saurophilum will probably be familiar names. These species of Cryptosporidium are known (and documented) to be the main cause of cryptosporidiosis in reptiles, but there is no evidence to support the transmission of these to humans which then result in cryptosporidiosis.
> 
> For a peer-reviewed article, this seems a pretty serious omission of fact, that if intentional, serves to "scare-monger" the public and public health professionals rather than educate them. From a tinpot charity such as the APA, sadly I guess this is to be expected, though very irresponsible. To publicise this however, and their many other statements of shoddy science, would help to discredit the APA to the public and put some real science out there. Something we really need to start doing!
> 
> The Doncaster show incident earlier this year highlights the need for more done to engage with the wider public (and, it would seem, with Doncaster council) to provide the correct information and challenge groups such the APA when they spurt this kind of nonsense. Should the Beeb actually publish the documentary and talk to the FBH, this might be a good point to raise....


We now know that the paper published by Warwick & Co. in _The Biologist_ was not peer review that has been confirmed by the publishers. That is a matter in hand and will be dealt with in due course.

I am interested in your comments about dogs and cats more likely to be a vector that infects humans with Cryptosporidium rather than reptiles, are you aware of any data on the prevalence of crypto in what we might call domesticated species?

Some years ago a medical academic [a properly qualified individual not a charlatan like Warwick] produced for us [the FBH] a report on Zoonosis which was very helpful, perhaps its time we did this again. Yesterday a report was published on toxoplasmosis: see below. What would be helpful to us, from a media perspective at the very least, is to be able to put issues of Zoonosis into perspective.

Infection risk posed by cats revealed
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19474612


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## Austin Allegro

We now know that the paper published by Warwick & Co. in _The Biologist_ was not peer review that has been confirmed by the publishers. That is a matter in hand and will be dealt with in due course.

Not to have ones article peer reviewed before spamming it about to all and sundry is usually held as a fundamental breach of the rules of conduct in academia and the honourable professions. Absolute sacrilege.

But what more would you expect from the 6 strong members of the APA of which 3 are on the sex offenders register and another a convicted shoplifter.


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## Khaos

geckograham said:


> Well Mr Glasson has just ensured that I have made my last donation to the FBH! What kind of a way is that to talk to people?


Conversely, Mr Glasson has just ensured that my first donation to the FBH will not be the last one.

Talking to people like this is the only way to make the foolish, the lazy and the indifferent to take notice.

He and the FBH owe us absolutely nothing. We owe them everything. 

Firstly, they should never have had to ask people not to exchange animals in car parks because 1) it's illegal* and 2) it risks the shows and the hobby for every single person involved, now and forever. 

Then they asked nicely. Then they asked repeatedly. Now, there is a truly credible threat, now that the APA have huffed and puffed and got the BBC to take notice, now that there are potentially going to be visible or undercover camera crews around our shows, they ABSOLUTELY have a right to speak like this, because people still do not get it.

Anybody still thinking that it's okay to exchange in car parks, or that the FBH should arrange for an area for you to do this, rather than pay a very reasonable table fee (or simply go a mile up the road and swap over a coffee), take a look in the mirror.

Don't ruin our hobby for you, for everyone else and for the people who one day may never, ever get to keep a snake because this entitled, instant-gratification generation screwed it up through laziness and apathy.

(*FAO MCEE, don't bother. It is.)


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## MCEE

Khaos said:


> Conversely, Mr Glasson has just ensured that my first donation to the FBH will not be the last one.
> 
> Talking to people like this is the only way to make the foolish, the lazy and the indifferent to take notice.


No excuse whatsoever. The FBH, if they want to be the professional, upstanding figurehead of the hobby, need to learn to respond to differences of opinion with dignity and to learn how to address their critics without throwing their toys out of their pram.



> He and the FBH owe us absolutely nothing. We owe them everything.


We owe the FBH everything? Everything?




> Firstly, they should never have had to ask people not to *exchange* animals in car parks because 1) it's illegal*


Whatever.



> Then they asked nicely. Then they asked repeatedly.


And, your point is?



> Now, there is a truly credible threat, now that the APA have huffed and puffed and got the BBC to take notice, now that there are potentially going to be visible or undercover camera crews around our shows....


It's good the BBC may have taken notice. The perfect opportunity for the hobby to have it's say, don't you think.

Speculation, assumption, hearsay, call iit what you will, but whatever it is the hobby seems to have gone into panic mode over this BBC malarky. A panic which the FBH are quite happy to conduct. *If* any BBC programme is on the cards, the FBH do not seem to be doing much to get involved. They won't even tell us what their responses were, when approached by the BBC, and why they gave those responses.

Until proper *evidence* is forthcoming as to 1) whether the programme is going ahead 2) what type of programme it is 3) whether it is going to be damaging to the hobby, I will certainly not get drawn into any panic that some "Corporal Joneses" on here have found themselves in.


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## Janine00

@ Allegro.... have decided it's not worth wasting breath or energy responding to some posts. (or am I just having a can't be ar**d day) :blush:

Individuals will think what they want to anyway, and keyboard warriors (all of us) :blush: will always be around! However, some of us may have been around a little longer than others, so possibly have a better idea of what has gone on before as well as the direction we are trying hard to move things to in the future.... 

Always been easier to sit on it than actively putting yourself out to do something about it, always will be. I for one am in some ways grateful to people like the gRudge as they do sometimes have a few good points in with the rest of the exchanges, and it's often good to hear all sides as we can then decide what to act on and what to leave well enough alone for the time being. 

You heard anything from Richard yet re: proposed protocol for exchanges?


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## penfold

i decided a week ago that its not worth answering these threads as it just bumps back to the top let it slowly die and disapear to the vaults of the forum


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## Berber King

What MCEE,gRudge and the other militant trolls dont seem to like,is that the FBH dont tell them exactly what is going on behind the scenes.Get over it,a much bigger battle is being waged over in europe that could have devastating effects on the entire hobby.Some things dont belong all over public forums, so tools like yourselves can get some sort of gratification and reputation by nit-picking.

Give the majority a break,and crawl back under your bridges.


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## Khaos

Unfortunately, they take no responsibility now, and if their actions gets the hobby legislated or even banned, they'll likely say "the FBH should have done a better job". 

We, all of us, right now, are on the front lines of the battle that will decide whether exotic pets are something we and our future generations get to enjoy, or something which will disappear and be taken away.

There is no rhetoric too harsh, this is not scaremongering, this is happening. The eyes of the indifferent government and legislators are upon us, brought here by the fanatical APA and their like.

It's not even that if we screw up, our hobby could get closed down. Simply not doing anything - let alone getting it wrong - could be enough. 

We can't afford to do anything questionable.


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## Tarron

Berber King said:


> What MCEE,gRudge and the other militant trolls dont seem to like,is that the FBH dont tell them exactly what is going on behind the scenes.Get over it,a much bigger battle is being waged over in europe that could have devastating effects on the entire hobby.Some things dont belong all over public forums, so tools like yourselves can get some sort of gratification and reputation by nit-picking.
> 
> Give the majority a break,and crawl back under your bridges.


Completely agree, why should the everyday hobbiest be told all the plans for the future, remember the apa monitor these pages, so that would be silly.
Still, as long as the individual is happy hey!
imagine if they were around during the second world war with forums. What are the government doing to stop this. Why are you sending all them fake planes down south, that wont help (I appreciate that may go above the young or cultured heads, but you get my meaning)
Let Chris and his teams deal with this as they have for the last 30 years and stop jumping on the anti fbh bandwagon, it's pointless.


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## BenjaminBoaz

Im not going to read the whole post - sorry- but the post interested me as i have received my details from the IHS for table holders for the september show. It states that they have allowed the BBC to film at the show for a TV programme and that any table holder who doesnt want to be filmed must tell the crew as they go round on the day. Now thats about the extent i know from the IHS but my first thought was OH NO! there are lots of reason for this though. Maybe Chris knows more and could let us know what the program is etc.. We (members) had a vote on our FB group and the out come was that people thought it a bad idea overall, unless it was for the benefit of the whole hobby rather than trying to show both sides of the story. I know we have nothing to hide but TV doesnt always explain things like it should be.


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## Frosty2532

animalstory said:


> Im not going to read the whole post - sorry- but the post interested me as i have received my details from the IHS for table holders for the september show. It states that they have allowed the BBC to film at the show for a TV programme and that any table holder who doesnt want to be filmed must tell the crew as they go round on the day. Now thats about the extent i know from the IHS but my first thought was OH NO! there are lots of reason for this though. Maybe Chris knows more and could let us know what the program is etc.. We (members) had a vote on our FB group and the out come was that people thought it a bad idea overall, unless it was for the benefit of the whole hobby rather than trying to show both sides of the story. I know we have nothing to hide but TV doesnt always explain things like it should be.


Does the same apply to non table holders who may not wish to be filmed?


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## Chris Newman

animalstory said:


> Im not going to read the whole post - sorry- but the post interested me as i have received my details from the IHS for table holders for the september show. It states that they have allowed the BBC to film at the show for a TV programme and that any table holder who doesnt want to be filmed must tell the crew as they go round on the day. Now thats about the extent i know from the IHS but my first thought was OH NO! there are lots of reason for this though. Maybe Chris knows more and could let us know what the program is etc.. We (members) had a vote on our FB group and the out come was that people thought it a bad idea overall, unless it was for the benefit of the whole hobby rather than trying to show both sides of the story. I know we have nothing to hide but TV doesnt always explain things like it should be.


The programme filming is BBC Inside Out.


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## MCEE

Chris Newman said:


> The programme filming is BBC Inside Out.


And the BBC agenda is? Why do they want to film? Is it for a story about the nicities of the hobby or a story about the controversies surrounding the hobby, perpetrated by certain extremists? If the IHS/FBH have this information, I think it is only fair that the table holders and the attendees know why the BBC want to film before the turning up to be confronted by the TV crew. If the IHS/FBH do not know the BBCs agenda for the story, why not?


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## Roseanna

Shun me all you like after this...

all im going to say is, if the bbc are going to be filming at the show then in my opinion there are far more serious issues going on at these reptile shows that need to be addressed beforehand,never mind trading In the car park!


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## BenjaminBoaz

Frosty2532 said:


> Does the same apply to non table holders who may not wish to be filmed?


I have no idea when the filming will take pace, it could be in the morning before buyers enter, but i would think they would want footage of the show in action so although table holder have a choice in taking part or being interviewed or filmed no one i would have though will be able to say anything about the overall show being shown- so maybe wear a pink hat so you can spot yourself! 

Our poll on FB resulted in : 

No, its not a good idea: 32 votes
Yes, its all good: 8 votes
Only if its used to create a constructive programme: 15 votes


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## Fionab

not completely sure its a good idea, however i feel the IHS are being put over a barrel, if they refuse to film the show it will inevitably say the IHS "refused to comment" making out there is much more to hide....... rock and hard place come to mind.


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## Row'n'Bud

Threads like this one on here will have helped to push the AR crew to get camera crews involved as due to all the petty point scoring and childish questioning of the the clubs' wishes shows them that there will always be idiots out there that simply don't care about others wishes and will happily do their own thing just to prove a point.......these tools will hand the AR groups everything they want to see on a plate if they don't grow up and respect the wishes of the clubs running these events


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## Natrix

Fionab said:


> not completely sure its a good idea, however i feel the IHS are being put over a barrel, if they refuse to film the show it will inevitably say the IHS "refused to comment" making out there is much more to hide....... rock and hard place come to mind.


As barrels go there are two things to consider.

A) The IHS is having a show and the show is open to the public meaning any one can come along to see what’s happening (including BBC reporters and AR people both with the possibility of having hidden cameras.

and 

B)The BBC is doing a program on the reptile hobby and need to find footage and information of/about a reptile show from some one.
Now which of the following is going to look better in this program,
1) We say yes and let everyone know they will be there. We invite them in, let them see how it all works and show we have nothing to hide. We also get to put some of our views across in the show and hopefully get the right to reply to any claims made against us.

Or

2)We say no. In the program the BBC make a big thing of how we refused them entry and then show some under cover filming possibly provided by some AR nut job that might not even be from a British show and could be very old footage (remember the public won’t know where or when it was filmed). Some one like Warwick or Toland gets to give their views on what’s shown and we get a limited right to reply or worse still they just say we didn’t comment. 

Gordon
FBH VC


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## Lutra Garouille

Roseanna said:


> Shun me all you like after this...
> 
> all im going to say is, if the bbc are going to be filming at the show then in my opinion there are far more serious issues going on at these reptile shows that need to be addressed beforehand,never mind trading In the car park!


This...

Never mind the reptiles in small boxes etc... and the hand over in car parks which is being addressed and IMO thats great. Think of the crowds, the masses all straining to get that bargain and the complete pushing and shoving that goes on. What does that show?

Letting the TV crew in will be a good move as long as the logistics of the show are thought about too. And when i say a good move i mean being open with the people who are questioning us. 

Speaking from experience, openness really helps to deal with difficult and contraversial situations. If we say no - the message we are sending is 'we have something to hide' like it or not. If we let them in and they see what happens and it's all legal and everyone is normal and the stereotypes are challenged it will be harder for them to show a 'bad' portrayal of us and the hobby.

Yes they may well twist things but we are more likely to get a fair deal than if it were channel 4 etc...

Challenging the FBH and IHS is not going to help. The decision is made and we now have to come together to work out how we portray ourselves and manage the show this year. I will be there to enjoy it as usual. 

Good work Chris and co. It cannot be easy and not lowering ourselves to their level of falsehoods and personal attacks really helps to show us in good light. :2thumb:


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## Roseanna

Lutra Garouille said:


> This...
> 
> Never mind the reptiles in small boxes etc... and the hand over in car parks which is being addressed and IMO thats great. Think of the crowds, the masses all straining to get that bargain and the complete pushing and shoving that goes on. What does that show?
> .


 You've just made me think, will there actually be room for a tv crew in that place? lol it gets packed!


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## Montage_Morphs

I hope all the folks that are being filmed selling or with tables have their taxes in order!


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## Lutra Garouille

Roseanna said:


> You've just made me think, will there actually be room for a tv crew in that place? lol it gets packed!


Quite...

Although it's at a bigger venue now isnt it? So there may be enough room for them to squeeze through :2thumb:


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## Roseanna

Lutra Garouille said:


> Quite...
> 
> Although it's at a bigger venue now isnt it? So there may be enough room for them to squeeze through :2thumb:


 Have they moved venues since last time? because if it's the same one as last time i genuinly don't think they'll fit in lol


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## Janine00

Gawd.... talk about not being able to please all the people all of the time.... there is NO pleasing some of yous lot!! :whistling2:

The majority of us bang on for years about the chance to get to put OUR side of the story, and when we do, you slate the bu... borrowers that gets us the chance:whip:

Come on people.... instead of all of the bloody negative naysayers.... do something positive for a change, get from behind your blasted keyboards and show that we know what we are doing! : victory: Better still, if you get a chance to get in front of the camera, use charm and common sense reasoning and POLITE MANNER to answer back to some of the negative things that Warwick, Jessop et al spout!

OK.... rant over :lol2:

Rant over!


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## Lutra Garouille

Roseanna said:


> Have they moved venues since last time? because if it's the same one as last time i genuinly don't think they'll fit in lol


I believe it's at the race course now rather than the Dome. 

lol you can just picture it cant you! :gasp:


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## BenjaminBoaz

Natrix said:


> As barrels go there are two things to consider.
> 
> A) The IHS is having a show and the show is open to the public meaning any one can come along to see what’s happening (including BBC reporters and AR people both with the possibility of having hidden cameras.
> 
> and
> 
> B)The BBC is doing a program on the reptile hobby and need to find footage and information of/about a reptile show from some one.
> Now which of the following is going to look better in this program,
> 1) We say yes and let everyone know they will be there. We invite them in, let them see how it all works and show we have nothing to hide. We also get to put some of our views across in the show and hopefully get the right to reply to any claims made against us.
> 
> Or
> 
> 2)We say no. In the program the BBC make a big thing of how we refused them entry and then show some under cover filming possibly provided by some AR nut job that might not even be from a British show and could be very old footage (remember the public won’t know where or when it was filmed). Some one like Warwick or Toland gets to give their views on what’s shown and we get a limited right to reply or worse still they just say we didn’t comment.
> 
> Gordon
> FBH VC


I think the person that said the IHS are over a barrel is correct. There is no way of knowing what the BBC will do with footage and how they will portray the hobby at all. That comes down to the views of the producer, unless he leave it open. We dont even know what the program is called. I do think its time that the public saw we have nothing to hide and that animals are looked after but will footage be explained or will it just come across as a mass market and animals are in small containers? will the BBC explain to the narrow minded that they dont live in these transport containers, that heating is available? Will it be pointed out that all animals have to be transported in close quarters for there protection - after all dont we transport horses in boxes, tied so they cant turn around? What about cages for dogs in cars or pigs and sheep on transport lorries? I really do hope it helps our cause and that we are seen in a good light. i however dont trust some reporter that really has little idea or understanding, or miss informs the public because he/she didnt understand something. If it was a members only meeting they i dont see the problem of saying no. Is this one open to the public or do they still have to be associate members on the day? I dont see why people shouldnt have to be paid up full members.


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## StaneyWid

Montage_Morphs said:


> I hope all the folks that are being filmed selling or with tables have their taxes in order!


 
Bit rich considerin :whistling2: btw seen a pic on other thread,clean ur nails : victory:


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## ophidianman

Montage_Morphs said:


> I hope all the folks that are being filmed selling or with tables have their taxes in order!



I had much the same thoughts. Inland Revenue official sat at home watching the program as the camera pans across tubs of high end regius on stand after stand..................................


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## Montage_Morphs

StaneyWid said:


> Bit rich considerin :whistling2: btw seen a pic on other thread,clean ur nails : victory:


I declare profit from my clutches, I have to since I live with someone who works for themselves and they do check up on us. So get it up ye :2thumb:

My nails are very pretty I'll have you know!


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## Montage_Morphs

ophidianman said:


> I had much the same thoughts. Inland Revenue official sat at home watching the program as the camera pans across tubs of high end regius on stand after stand..................................


I am sure they will make a point of ensuring viewers see just how much some of the morphs command. It will open a huge can of worms. All these people breeding and selling and making money (whether it is putting it straight back into the hobby or not) and not declaring taxes. That's going to go down well. 

On the other hand I am sure there are some folks out there that do declare their earnings from the snakes.


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## vetdebbie

I'm sorry, but if people are selling royals (or corns or beardies or geckos) at £X,000 and not declaring to the tax office, they deserve to get caught. May be I am harsh, but I don't see why anyone should be allowed to dodge these things.


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## Tarron

vetdebbie said:


> I'm sorry, but if people are selling royals (or corns or beardies or geckos) at £X,000 and not declaring to the tax office, they deserve to get caught. May be I am harsh, but I don't see why anyone should be allowed to dodge these things.


When you sell you car on autotrader, do you declare it?


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## Austin Allegro

ophidianman said:


> I had much the same thoughts. Inland Revenue official sat at home watching the program as the camera pans across tubs of high end regius on stand after stand..................................


 You mean the high end Royals that are twice the price at which they are up for sale at Hamm and other Euro shows. And the same ones that some people tour to show after show because very few people are prepared to pay the price shown. Can't recall exactly which show it was but last year but last year somebody had a copule of Royals priced at 5 figure sums. Still there at the end of the show and went back to where they came from. Begs the question how many people are wandering around shows with 10 or 20 grand in their back pocket. But of course they are there just for show and probably to inflate the ego of the breeder. So coming back to the tables full of high end Regius i suspect the overwhelming majority of animals going through the exits to new pet homes i.e. actual sales will be low end priced stock.


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## Austin Allegro

Tarron said:


> When you sell you car on autotrader, do you declare it?


For almost everybody selling cars after a period of ownership it is pretty likely the price raised will be less than that paid. Hence a loss made.
The narks at the DVLA have their computer system programmed to highlight suspicious activity that could indicate organised regular dealing by a person with details passed on to HMRC.


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## Tarron

Austin Allegro said:


> For almost everybody selling cars after a period of ownership it is pretty likely the *price raised will be less than that paid. Hence a loss made.*
> The narks at the DVLA have their computer system programmed to highlight suspicious activity that could indicate organised regular dealing by a person with details passed on to HMRC.


And I would say that 90 odd % of the hobby breeders that attend and sell at the meetings also make a loss, once food, electricity, housing etc is brought in to the equation. Look at beardies, how many people have ever made a profit on them?
There may be a few breeders, who have extremely high end morphs of prolific species, that could make a profit. I would say to them, register with HMRC, the profit made will probably be low, so the tax paid will be minimal.
The APA tried this tactic at the last Doncaster meting, and it was met with most people that were going, saying they never make a profit.


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## 5plusmany

Tarron said:


> And I would say that 90 odd % of the hobby breeders that attend and sell at the meetings also make a loss, once food, electricity, housing etc is brought in to the equation. Look at beardies, how many people have ever made a profit on them?
> There may be a few breeders, who have extremely high end morphs of prolific species, that could make a profit. I would say to them, register with HMRC, the profit made will probably be low, so the tax paid will be minimal.
> The APA tried this tactic at the last Doncaster meting, and it was met with most people that were going, saying they never make a profit.


Agreed. Anyway, the argument is pretty much null and void. If HMRC want to go after animal breeders, they'd have to start going after the hundreds, maybe thousands, of BYB's selling their dog and cat 'morphs' Silly names at silly prices:lol2:


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## vetdebbie

Tarron said:


> When you sell you car on autotrader, do you declare it?


Er, never done it and don't own a car!


----------

