# European Protected Species - Your Views



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

If it is not possible to prove that an animal on the EPS list is captive bred, do we think that the animals themselves will be destroyed in much the same way as the thousands of animals that are destroyed by the RSPCA each year?

If this is the case, how many organisations are equiped to undertake such a task?

Pro Keepers' Lobby is commencing the launch of an internet campaign on this subject.

Fight For Their Rights

Let me know your views

Pro Keepers Lobby | "Left Wing Right Politics!"

Rory Matier
TSKA PKL


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

Well, what can I say?
I have a species on the list, and will not be trying to get paperwork for them. I know my first male was cb, I have had 3 cb babies myself this year. I also know that my other 5 were WC... Outside the EU, but that's not the point - how the hell would I prove it?!

I also know of a couple of people through the shop that are keeping Eyed Lizards (viridis) and I'd put my hard earned cash on the fact that they have not got the foggiest that any legislation surrounds these animals. There must be hundreds of people like that out there...


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

Ally said:


> I also know of a couple of people through the shop that are keeping Eyed Lizards (viridis) and I'd put my hard earned cash on the fact that they have not got the foggiest that any legislation surrounds these animals. There must be hundreds of people like that out there...


I see you've found it though :lol2:


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

Yes, i imagine it will be similar to the DWA whereby they have the power to sieze and destroy without compensation, or if a dangerous dog is given a destruction notice. It would be I guess the local authorities responsibility to dispose of the animal, i.e one way trip to the vets and the cost would be recovered from the owner.

I dont think any organisation such as the rspca would have any involvment in the actual destruction. I think they would be involved in looking after (if thats what you call it) the creature whilst the matter goes through court. 

However when an animal is brought into this country illegally the animals are rehomed with experienced keepers & zoo's. Perhaps this will be the approach taken. 

Either way the animal will be removed.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I think its unbelievably unrealistic, what they should do IMO, is bring the law in for any animal bought from this day forth, that would still be hard to police because you would have people saying "no we got it before the legislation" but what else can they do that is fair??

If they made it so that all petshop animals had to have breeders certificates and no animal could be sold without these certificates then this would help.

After recent events it turns out theres thousands of pitbulls in the UK, getting walked in public every day and they still cant seem to police that.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

Eyed lizards are not on the list though as far as i know. (Lacerta lepida)


Lacerta *virdis* are the european Green lizard


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

Fixx said:


> I see you've found it though :lol2:


That was indeed the little male before he was sold a couple of years ago... I've not been able to contact the new owner as he moved away from the area... (We had a phone number from when it was bought, I just got the new house owners).
He at least could be proven cb - I know his purchase 'chain'.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

I think they could very easily be. If it is illegal to keep animals that you cannot prove are captive bred... what else are they going to do with them ?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Side track: I thought Eyed Lizards were _Lacerta lepida_ (and NOT on the list) ... and that it was the Green lizards that were _Lacerta viridis_?

Me? I'm terrified that they'll take my two away, regardless of what they do to them. I can't personally afford much in the way of legal fees, not if I don't want to endanger the rest of my collection. I'm pretty sure they couldn't/wouldn't home Chum elsewhere, not with his tail problem... Tanda, maybe.


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

wohic said:


> Eyed lizards are not on the list though as far as i know. (Lacerta lepida)
> 
> 
> Lacerta *virdis* are the european Green lizard


Pleasingly, you are right and I should have been concentrating on that list more!!


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

Ally said:


> Pleasingly, you are right and I should have been concentrating on that list more!!


As i used to breed , when i posted the list on here when it was first published I was very careful to check thapoint out, even cross referencing the latin names to make sure they had not 'renamed' them.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

pink said:


> I dont think any organisation such as the rspca would have any involvment in the actual destruction. I think they would be involved in looking after (if thats what you call it) the creature whilst the matter goes through court.


Here is something that is even more startling!

So the species is illegal, therefore upon death row.

The owners of the species are placed under a court for prosecution, and the species is then possibly held by the RSPCA - no doubt with the owners having to also pay boarding for its presence there.

So once the owners are prosecuted, and the animal executed, then the joy continues - basically as potentially you are paying for the privilage of having your animal boarded, therefore prolonging the problem and then executed. You pay for your own animals execution as well as facing legally God knows what???

Am l missing something here?

Rory


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

SiUK said:


> I think its unbelievably unrealistic, what they should do IMO, is bring the law in for any animal bought from this day forth, that would still be hard to police because you would have people saying "no we got it before the legislation" but what else can they do that is fair??
> 
> If they made it so that all petshop animals had to have breeders certificates and no animal could be sold without these certificates then this would help.
> 
> After recent events it turns out theres thousands of pitbulls in the UK, getting walked in public every day and they still cant seem to police that.


I have to agree that it would most likely never happen either (being caught out that is) , who's going to police it other than the police, they cant even catch criminals. like you say theres hundreds of pitbulls and they maul people, reptiles just sit there. unless you make somebody aware that you have them how are they going to know? so if a keeper thinks they are on dodgy ground with regards to proving their status then its best to keep it low key, But anybody enforcing this act would be hard pressed to correctly identfy the species. The rscpca drown tortoises thinking they are turtles, I think the EPS in this country will be too involved with protecting uk species from development projects.

I think breeders of EPS Species who can prove their origins should now brush up on their documentation, breeding records / diaries. so that purchasers can be confident in proving their CB status. 

I breed eyed skinks, they are on the list. I can provide the name of the breeder who I obtained mine from (luckily), this may protect me in court. Any future generations I breed will now be documented, A home made certificate of origin will be produced, one copy for my records, one copy for the purchaser, i will give this to the purchaser along side a dated receipt. Should they ever be taken to court this should satisfy the court that in the balance of probability it is much more likely that they were CB not WC.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

That's the deal with RSPCA prosecutions Rory... you pay for the animal boarding for the duration of the case. No reason to believe it would be any different here ?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

That's what I'm concerned about.

I'm about this far: |----| from just taking my two to the vet and asking her to euthanase them for me... because at least then I don't have to worry about how the RSPCA would house and "care" for them... and I won't risk my other animals by paying for that AND their being killed.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

pink said:


> who's going to police it other than the police, they cant even catch criminals.


Vets when/if they need treatment.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

ratboy said:


> Vets when/if they need treatment.


Yup, and that's where we're borked.

Chum's been to our vet. He needs to go back to our vet again. We have the choice between not taking him and being cruel... or taking him and being caught out, no matter how nice our vet is.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Here is something that is even more startling!
> 
> So the species is illegal, therefore upon death row.
> 
> ...


No thats what happens now, its called rubbing salt into the wound


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

do you think an ordinary vet would know whats a europeon species or not? because im sure the majority of RSPCA inspectors wouldnt have a clue, and do you think a reptile specific vet would grass you up?

These are genuine questions not me saying its not likely to happen.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Our vet knows what species Chum is.

But then again, it's pretty difficult to mistake the world's largest legless lizard for anything else... I suppose we could stick prosthetic legs on him and claim he was a Plated.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

Probably not, A rep vet may feel morally obliged to inform?


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

I wouldnt have them euthanised, i would just roll with it until somebody points the finger. If you felt it was no win and the rspca are knocking on your door then is the time to consider that option.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

pink said:


> I have to agree that it would most likely never happen either (being caught out that is) , who's going to police it other than the police, they cant even catch criminals. like you say theres hundreds of pitbulls and they maul people, reptiles just sit there. unless you make somebody aware that you have them how are they going to know? so if a keeper thinks they are on dodgy ground with regards to proving their status then its best to keep it low key, But anybody enforcing this act would be hard pressed to correctly identfy the species. The rscpca drown tortoises thinking they are turtles, I think the EPS in this country will be too involved with protecting uk species from development projects.


In some respects, you may be right.

However, l am concerned with the fact that in reality, the secondary legislation has not really hit the private keeper yet.

Who knows what 'little unscheduled appointments' certain charities may make on keepers?

And then just say if the whole collection is scrutinised?

Me, l have not got a clue about reptiles in the first place so unless you are showing me a ... meerkat, shrew, elephant ...as herpers will know when l look at their stands at the shows, l am just dazzled by the 'pretty colours' and whilst many RSPCA inspectors may be the same, what if visits no longer hold the usual viewers?

Rory


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

SiUK said:


> do you think an ordinary vet would know whats a europeon species or not? because im sure the majority of RSPCA inspectors wouldnt have a clue, and do you think a reptile specific vet would grass you up?
> 
> These are genuine questions not me saying its not likely to happen.


Quite honestly mate, if a vet asks what species the animal is... you are going to tell him because the prescribed treatment could differ between species.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

ratboy said:


> Quite honestly mate, if a vet asks what species the animal is... you are going to tell him because the prescribed treatment could differ between species.


ah yeh your right actually, I suppose it depends on the ailment but in general you dont want to take the risk.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

> Who knows what 'little unscheduled appointments' certain charities may make on keepers?


Dont let them in, dont even open the door, unless they have a police officer present with a warrant. (i think this is correct?)


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

pink said:


> Dont let them in, dont even open the door, unless they have a police officer present with a warrant. (i think this is correct?)


the only legal way they can enter is with a court issued warrent. or obviously if you invite them lol


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

pink said:


> Dont let them in, dont even open the door, unless they have a police officer present with a warrant. (i think this is correct?)


AWA inspectors have right of entry I think... but yes, the RSPCA don't.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*I may be wrong..*

I may be wrong, and l will check this out [well am doing so now], but the RSPCA are going to be used as Inspectors for the Councils. If they knew you had reptiles, then they would probably bring in an expert.

Plus, l thought AWA Inspectors had right of entry?

Rory

Bloody hell - Snap!! LOL


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

what right of entry without a warrent??


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

An inspector or a constable may enter premises for the purpose of searching for a protected animal and of exercising any power under section 18 in relation to it if he reasonably believes— 

(a) that there is a protected animal on the premises, and 

(b) that the animal is suffering or, if the circumstances of the animal do not change, it is likely to suffer.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

I think if breeders put in place their own documentry evidence then in a few CB generations this whole thing wont be a problem. And these species will be continue to be enjoyed. perhaps now is the time for keepers of the less commonly kept species to start breeding programmes and producing some offspring if they are not already? to prevent species beinglost to the hobby.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

*WHO WILL ENFORCE THE ACT?*​
· The Act gives formal enforcement powers to the police and ‘inspectors’. 

· ‘Inspectors’ are people appointed by local authorities, or, by the Secretary of State in England, or the National Assembly in Wales. In practice this can mean a local authority employee with responsibility for animal welfare, or an Animal Health (formerly State Veterinary Service) Officer.

· However, the Animal Welfare Act (AWA), like most laws, is a ‘common informer’s Act’. This means that anyone is allowed to bring a prosecution for an offence. 

· If a person claims to be acting as an inspector under the AWA, the Act requires the person entering to show evidence of his identity and his authority to enter, and to give information about his reasons for entering. However, there needs to be a request for these things before there is a requirement to provide them. 

· Inspectors are not liable for anything done in the course of duty under the Act if a court is satisfied that it was done in good faith and there were reasonable grounds for doing it. 

· It is an offence under the Act for anyone to obstruct an inspector in the course of their duty. 


*ARE RSPCA INSPECTORS THE SAME AS THOSE INSPECTORS APPOINTED UNDER THE ANIMAL WELFARE ACT?*​
· No. RSPCA inspectors have the same status as any other private individual. As explained above, the AWA is a common informers’ Act, so anyone can prosecute. This is the same as the 1911 Act and a lot of other legislation. The RSPCA have not been given, nor have they sought, any new powers. 

· RSPCA inspectors have no rights of entry or inspection and enjoy none of the statutory powers of enforcement which under the Act belong only to the police or inspectors appointed under the Animal Welfare Act as Animal Welfare Act inspectors.

· If an RSPCA inspector wishes to enter private property he would need to be accompanied by a police constable or an Animal Welfare Act inspector. Both a police constable and Animal Welfare Act inspector must comply with the provisions on enforcement and entry as set out in the Act.

· The RSPCA cannot issue formal improvement notices under the Act. They do, and will continue to, issue their own informal ‘improvement notices’. These are not formal notices under the Act and have no force in law.
*WHAT POWERS OF ENTRY DO THE POLICE AND AWA INSPECTORS HAVE?*​
· The Animal Welfare Act 2006, sections 18 and 19 and Schedule 2, allow an inspector or police constable to enter premises for the purpose of searching for a protected animal if he reasonably believes that there is a protected animal on the premises and that the animal is suffering or, if the circumstances of the animal do not change, it is likely to suffer. 

· An inspector or constable may (if necessary) use reasonable force in exercising the power of entry, but only if it appears to him that entry is required before a warrant can be obtained and executed i.e. this is an emergency power only, for example if an animal is suffering so much that it would be inappropriate to delay. Where there is no such urgency, if force is required to gain entry, a warrant must be obtained from a justice of the peace

· There is no right of entry without a warrant to any private dwelling or to a part of a premises which is used as a private dwelling. This includes a yard, garden, garage or outhouse which is used for purposes in connection with that private dwelling. 

· Warrants are not required by inspectors inspecting licensed or registered activities, but this does not apply to any part of a premises used as a private dwelling, such as dog breeding from a garden shed, unless 24 hours’ notice of the intended entry has been given to the occupier. Entry to a dwelling house would require a warrant. 

· In exercising the right of entry, Schedule 2 allows a constable or inspector to take other persons onto the premises. This is at the discretion of the inspector or constable who is entering. For example, it may be necessary to take a veterinary surgeon onto the premises. 

· Where entry is for the purposes of inspecting licensed or registered activities or inspection of farmed animals and checking compliance with European legislation an accompanying veterinary surgeon will have powers to examine the animals and to take samples, tests etc. There are also powers to seize documents. These powers also apply to entry and search where there is reasonable suspicion that an offence is being, or has been committed.

· Section 18 is wider than the power in the Protection of Animals Act 2000 (which this Act repeals) in three ways. First, the power is available even if no proceedings have been commenced. Secondly, it is not restricted to animals kept for commercial purposes. Thirdly, it allows inspectors to take into possession not only animals which are suffering but also those which are likely to suffer if action is not taken.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

whatever happened to an Englishmans home is his castle?

It seems a bit grey to me, they can come in without a warrent if they believe an animal is suffering, but need one if its not urgent, so they could just say they believe an animal is suffering just to get in, with no real proof??


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

Its like when the police need a warrant to search your house unless they are arresting you there. Heres what happens in reality..."may we search your house" 

"NO"

" I am arresting you for perverting the course of justice (or whatever they say), this gives us the right to search your house for evidence"

In they go - no warrant.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

That kind of happened to me once they arrested me then asked for permission to search my house and I said no so they still had to go and get a warrent


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

I had a mate who got in trouble shall we say, the police knocked his door and asked him a few questions, his reply was " my solicitor has advised me to say no comment", there reply was "I am arresting you for perverting the course of justice" 



> If the police do arrest you, they can also enter and search any premises where you were during or immediately before the arrest. They can search only for evidence relating to the offence for which you have been arrested, and they must have reasonable grounds for believing there is evidence there.


 taken from citizens advice

My friend thought he was being so clever when he told them teh my solicitor line! Basically if they turn up on your door with an officer that officer might use this loophole to get in. They arrest you for perverting the course of justice, and then have the right to search for evidence.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

ah that will be why then I wasnt in my house


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

SiUK said:


> whatever happened to an Englishmans home is his castle?


From Fixx's quote... unless the animal is in extreme distress they still need a warrant to enter a private house. But it's interesting that this appears to be waved if they "believe" that there is a protected animal on the premises.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Eps*

For a fuller understanding of the species involved in this legislation please see here:

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/natu...annexiv_en.pdf

Rory


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