# leaft litter (warning basic question and long post)



## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Hi again 

i would like to start off by wishing you all a happy new year :2thumb:

ok i thought i would start a new thread for my simple questions.

I dont know if im daft or looking in the wrong places for my info but i have some basic questions again.

I have been out (with the dog) this weekend looking for some leaves form my little dart frog, and i am having some issues find suitable leaves, i have read oak and magnolia leaves are used (oak seems to get the peoples vote) but i cant seem to find an oak tree

i am not very good with tree identification and had no experience in trees or plants so this maybe a long post  

i was thinking are they any leaves i can use? for example i have a lot of sycamore leaves around were i am (who ever planted trees in mk must love these) 

i have found a few tree like bushes that have leaves that look like magnolia but im not 100% sure so will add a pic below for some help but all these leaves still seem to be green and im guessing i would really want them a more brown colour and on the floor instead of on the tree/bush, to get them brown could i put them in the oven for a bit or will this take stuff out of the leaves i will need? 

my other question is it best to have the leaves dry (stu mentioned when i hijacked morgans thread) this time of year its impossible!! or will a min in the microwave suffice? 

i am the type of person who over thinks everything and even if i had an oak tree i would be very suspicious thats its not an oak tree because its in my garden and thats far to easy..... so i apologise if im over thinking this simple process of collecting leaves and i thank anyone out there who helps me 
























thanks again all (sorry if i have bored anyone)

dane


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Nope, you are not boring anyone! Sycamore leaves are fine- they break down quicker than oak or magnolia, but there is (almost) always a ready supply of replacements!

The leaves in your pics look like laurel to me- this is toxic, I'm afraid. In general, evergreens are best avoided, unless you know which are which. Fruit and nut leaves are generally fine; oak, hazel, apple, sweet chesnut, even hawthorn. Google any of these for leaf/tree shapes- that will help. The main advantage of using dry leaves is that they take longer to rot, so that's up to you; misting will inevitably moisten them again anyway, although probably not to the same extent. As mentioned elsewhere, some people like to 'nuke' them anyway, to kill off any beasties; I never do, but that's my choice.


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Ron Magpie said:


> Nope, you are not boring anyone! Sycamore leaves are fine- they break down quicker than oak or magnolia, but there is (almost) always a ready supply of replacements!
> 
> The leaves in your pics look like laurel to me- this is toxic, I'm afraid. In general, evergreens are best avoided, unless you know which are which. Fruit and nut leaves are generally fine; oak, hazel, apple, sweet chesnut, even hawthorn. Google any of these for leaf/tree shapes- that will help. The main advantage of using dry leaves is that they take longer to rot, so that's up to you; misting will inevitably moisten them again anyway, although probably not to the same extent. As mentioned elsewhere, some people like to 'nuke' them anyway, to kill off any beasties; I never do, but that's my choice.


thanks ron thats great news i am going right now to collect some sycamore leaves as i have tons of them next to my house 

as long as i can get something to throw in to keep my little fella happy im all good 

thanks again mate


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

my frog is now the happiest frog ever :mf_dribble:


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

the little dude came straight out of his house and scaled the lovely new leaves and he even found a leaf with some small woods on nom nom anom


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> the little dude came straight out of his house and scaled the lovely new leaves and he even found a leaf with some small woods on nom nom anom
> 
> image


Excellent!

Incidentally laurel used to be used in kill jars by entomologists :gasp:- so not just toxic, *very* toxic! Not a problem for you, 'cos you won't use them, but worth putting up so others know.


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Ron Magpie said:


> Excellent!
> 
> Incidentally laurel used to be used in kill jars by entomologists :gasp:- so not just toxic, *very* toxic! Not a problem for you, 'cos you won't use them, but worth putting up so others know.


yeah i totally agree and its hard to find info on what leaves can be used for leaf litter 

glad i didnt use it as it did look kind of simular with the oics on google


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> Excellent!
> 
> Incidentally laurel used to be used in kill jars by entomologists :gasp:- so not just toxic, *very* toxic! Not a problem for you, 'cos you won't use them, but worth putting up so others know.


contains some form of cyanide i seem to recall,Ron can you confirm this.
Dane to be sure on oak check out acorns and oakapples.finally the reason for bone dry is one severely cuts done the likely hood of nemerteans,thats what i wanted you to search for,they predate on springtails which might be hugely important as a dart keeper whom wants this feeder to do well in his substrate
Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

soundstounite said:


> contains some form of cyanide i seem to recall,Ron can you confirm this.
> Dane to be sure on oak check out acorns and oakapples.finally the reason for bone dry is one severely cuts done the likely hood of nemerteans,thats what i wanted you to search for,they predate on springtails which might be hugely important as a dart keeper whom wants this feeder to do well in his substrate
> Stu



arrrr sorry stu i totally missed the hint in the other post... from now on any word that i cant read, pronounce or even understand you say im going to google. 

just on bone dryness will a blast in the microvwave do the trick?


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> *contains some form of cyanide i seem to recall,Ron can you confirm this.*
> Dane to be sure on oak check out acorns and oakapples.finally the reason for bone dry is one severely cuts done the likely hood of nemerteans,thats what i wanted you to search for,they predate on springtails which might be hugely important as a dart keeper whom wants this feeder to do well in his substrate
> Stu


Cyanogenic glycosides and amygdalin (whatever that is :lol2, apparently.
I honestly didn't know much about nemerteans- quite fascinating! I doubt they'd be much of a threat except in huge concentrations, though.


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Ron Magpie said:


> Cyanogenic glycosides and amygdalin (whatever that is :lol2, apparently.
> I honestly didn't know much about nemerteans- quite fascinating! I doubt they'd be much of a threat except in huge concentrations, though.


its some kind of worm a rbbon worm apparently urrrrrr


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> its some kind of worm a rbbon worm apparently urrrrrr


Nemertea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia As I said, fascinating!


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Ron Magpie said:


> Nemertea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia As I said, fascinating!


yeah thats what im reading


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

well the ones i put in i checked and got rid of things like spiders and webs and stuff as i wasnt sure what could be thrown in or not and the only insect/bug/worm i let slip in on the leaves were woodlice (found loads of small ones who didnt last very long) so i think i have got away with it this once 

however i have learnt a good lesson today (cheers stu) :notworthy:

and also i will be getting dry leaves from now on :2thumb:

also have you sen how big one has reached? 54 meters thats a staggering 177ft omg


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> well the ones i put in i checked and got rid of things like spiders and webs and stuff as i wasnt sure what could be thrown in or not and the only insect/bug/worm i let slip in on the leaves were woodlice (found loads of small ones who didnt last very long) so i think i have got away with it this once
> 
> however i have learnt a good lesson today (cheers stu) :notworthy:
> 
> ...


Think you'd spot that one...:whistling2:


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Ron Magpie said:


> Think you'd spot that one...:whistling2:


well you would hope :lol2:

just to put that size in context a standered articulated lorry is 53ft long (including the front bit)


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Dane I like the natural aproach to viv making i don't really sterilise the hell out of everything,i'm very similar to Ron in this respect,we both grew up i think keeping our phibs with no problems.I can't speak for Ron,but i'm pretty sure like me he thinks that there are many benefits to not sterilising the hell out of stuff. But there are some negatives that could potentially be a real big issue to dart keepers,that might not be anywhere near as important to other phib keepers.These become real issues with oophaga where alot of folks rear the kids in tank with their parents. The 2 bigggies that i have come across are nemerteans as above and snails.Typically nems. don't often reach plague proportions,but occasionally it does happen,i have been told of vivs being abandoned and stripped and restarted because of this.Normally one gets a few and they are just a damn pain in the butt,not more.The issue of course is springtails are a primary food source for a tiny oophaga froglet,and damn useful for all darts.
We have a woodlouce here called Onacillus acillus,check him out,you'll find him on rotting oak in number,this little guy might have some affect on nemertean numbers as they are said to predate the nemertean eggs.But once you have these guys(nems) in a viv,looks like you have them forever.
Snails will eat dart eggs,the buggers munch the embryo and leave the jelly,can be a major problem more so if you are not pulling eggs,there is a tiny chance of passing on liverfluke too,but TINY,they are an intermediate host for this nasty.
Dane this next bit is real important,I'm not scaremongering you,i'm showing you stuff i have come across so you can make an informed descission.
The likely hood is that every thing will be fine,you can microwave stuff if you require that is your choice,i do this with my cultures and all the subs for young frogs,as the springtails and mono cultures productivity are so important to me.Honestly it is my humble opinion that greater dangers come from pesticides and the activities of man to your viv and its inhabitants,but its worth having some knowledge of the other stuff,that nature can throw at us.
Ron mate happy new year,cheers for the cyanide confirmation
seeya
Stu


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

soundstounite said:


> Dane I like the natural aproach to viv making i don't really sterilise the hell out of everything,i'm very similar to Ron in this respect,we both grew up i think keeping our phibs with no problems.I can't speak for Ron,but i'm pretty sure like me he thinks that there are many benefits to not sterilising the hell out of stuff. But there are some negatives that could potentially be a real big issue to dart keepers,that might not be anywhere near as important to other phib keepers.These become real issues with oophaga where alot of folks rear the kids in tank with their parents. The 2 bigggies that i have come across are nemerteans as above and snails.Typically nems. don't often reach plague proportions,but occasionally it does happen,i have been told of vivs being abandoned and stripped and restarted because of this.Normally one gets a few and they are just a damn pain in the butt,not more.The issue of course is springtails are a primary food source for a tiny oophaga froglet,and damn useful for all darts.
> We have a woodlouce here called Onacillus acillus,check him out,you'll find him on rotting oak in number,this little guy might have some affect on nemertean numbers as they are said to predate the nemertean eggs.But once you have these guys(nems) in a viv,looks like you have them forever.
> Snails will eat dart eggs,the buggers munch the embryo and leave the jelly,can be a major problem more so if you are not pulling eggs,there is a tiny chance of passing on liverfluke too,but TINY,they are an intermediate host for this nasty.
> Dane this next bit is real important,I'm not scaremongering you,i'm showing you stuff i have come across so you can make an informed descission.
> ...


Stu, thanks for all your advise and higlighting the issues as you say there are many factors and last thing i want to do is end up ripping everythign out and having to start again or even worse loose my frog because of some pollution or something

there are so many things to think about

on a good note though i have got shed loads of jars and tub all over the place now my elivery came last wednesday (ordered 3 of everything) so now ill be producing my own instaed of been lazy and buying in :blush:

again thanks to both of you for all your help


----------



## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

just to expand on the technical words i didnt understand 

_*Oophaga*_ is a genus of poison-dart frogs containing nine species. Many of these species were formerly in the _Dendrobates_ genus.[1] The frogs are distributed in Central and South America, from Nicaragua through the Colombian El Choco to northern Ecuador (at elevations below 1,200 metres (3,900 ft)).
_Oophaga_, Greek for "egg eater" (_oon_, _phagos_),[2][3] is descriptive of the tadpoles' diet.[4][5] The larvae feed exclusively on unfertilized eggs supplied as food by the mother


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> Stu, thanks for all your advise and higlighting the issues as you say there are many factors and last thing i want to do is end up ripping everythign out and having to start again or even worse loose my frog because of some pollution or something
> 
> there are so many things to think about
> 
> ...


your welcome and don't worry about this stuff too much,good luck with the cultures mate
Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Been thinking about this a bit over the last day, Stu. I take your point with the darts, especially oophagans; once again, this shows the difference between culturing darts and most other frogs!:lol2:

Going back to predators on the 'custodians' (anyone else think this is just a poncy word to cover up what they actually _do_? 'Ooh, let's talk about 'custodians' rather than 'detrivores', or 'scavengers', or s:censor:t-eaters!' :Na_Na_Na_Na, given that I use 'live' leafmould anyway, it will not only contain the woodlice and springtails and worms and mites that do the job, it will also contain their predators; I have seen spiders and predatory beetles and centipedes in my tanks (the frogs eat them all quite happily). However, the tropical woodlice (from you) and the small white tropical springs (aquired by accident, now deliberately introduced to all new tanks) continue to breed and flourish- the predators don't seem to make much of a dent in the population. it's all making a quite interesting ecology...

Speaking (as you and Morgan were) of slugs and snails, I found a largish slug in the cane toad tank last night, probably introduced with the latest leaf top-up. I could have left it for Gostoso, but Fido the plated lizard abosolutely *loves* them, so he got a treat last night! :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> Been thinking about this a bit over the last day, Stu. I take your point with the darts, especially oophagans; once again, this shows the difference between culturing darts and most other frogs!:lol2:
> 
> Going back to predators on the 'custodians' (anyone else think this is just a poncy word to cover up what they actually _do_? 'Ooh, let's talk about 'custodians' rather than 'detrivores', or 'scavengers', or s:censor:t-eaters!' :Na_Na_Na_Na, given that I use 'live' leafmould anyway, it will not only contain the woodlice and springtails and worms and mites that do the job, it will also contain their predators; I have seen spiders and predatory beetles and centipedes in my tanks (the frogs eat them all quite happily). However, the tropical woodlice (from you) and the small white tropical springs (aquired by accident, now deliberately introduced to all new tanks) continue to breed and flourish- the predators don't seem to make much of a dent in the population. it's all making a quite interesting ecology...
> 
> Speaking (as you and Morgan were) of slugs and snails, I found a largish slug in the cane toad tank last night, probably introduced with the latest leaf top-up. I could have left it for Gostoso, but Fido the plated lizard abosolutely *loves* them, so he got a treat last night! :lol2:


Fascinating isn't it Ron,hell slugs are a cool food source to most phibs,not to darts,little snails i mean tiny are not really wanted either darts spit them out,its a different ethos to what i grew up with.Possibly you remember me hand washing leaves because i wanted the microfauna but not the snail eggs etc. i wasn't actually aware of these nemerteans then.I think the diverse ecology is what we want in viv,hell this ecosystem is so complex no one really knows whats going on.I'm hell bent on using wild grub,i think it is silly important to our charges,i quieried a boffin on what actual risks i was taking,selmonella cocidiosis chytrid worms god knows what else came back,enough to scare the pants off anyone,but ourfrogs are breeding strong healthy etc,if I didn't have that little kid(me )at my back it would stop me,i guess.
But my gut says that a strong healthy frog,is going to shrug(MOST) of this off,no worries,our darts have been breeding for eons without worrying about this stuff, carrying god knows what paracites,ok until we gave them chytrid.
There is the dilema, we might be subjecting them to non native pathogens,the key maybe a routine fecal programme if one takes this route(working onit mate), so one does know whats going on inside them.Where this might potentially come unstuck is with a frog that has been or is being stressed,we saw this just after frogday,its my firm belief that the move is way more stressful to them than we think and a stressed animal is vunerable.
so i take a thoughtful view on this,damn i need to give my frogs a good diet,i can show folks what that does for them,but by the same token hell don't we watch them,occassionally i need for a new guy to be aware of all this,as its important to be able to react if needed. Do i want to scare him no just make him aware.
Look i use rainwater wildgrub bla bla bla,do all our kids die of poisoning nah,are some already getting as big as mum and dad that were probably only given bloody fruit flies yup,i think the benefits outway the risks,and i see that in the little ones
As to the poncy words your right mate, course i don't write them often because i can't see the letters the rightway around,but detritivores must be up there:whistling2::lol2: .
Also an apology for going slightly leftfield of topic onto grub and off subs,but they are so close in relationship to me, anyway, worth a predinner rant:mf_dribble: 
Back totally to your point:blush: in adart viv the predators don't get munched maybe in any other phib tank they probably do,so i guess we need just a bit more care or maybe awareness is better
i'll get me coat:whistling2:
Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm quite surprised at how well native fauna and flora adapts to vivarium conditions. I had a spider in with my Azzies for about 3 months happily catching fruit flies until I changed the viv around. Obviously unfazed by the heat and humidity.


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> I'm quite surprised at how well native fauna and flora adapts to vivarium conditions. I had a spider in with my Azzies for about 3 months happily catching fruit flies until I changed the viv around. Obviously unfazed by the heat and humidity.


lol yeah well i spose viv conditions are not far from a warm summers day here yeah i see/feed the odd little spider too mate,fine with big dart frogs,one of the guys on dendroworld found an imi hanging from a web...not so good:gasp:thats one that i never thought of until i read about it,but your damn right,why we have put so much time into growing the native ferns from spore,under similar conditions to a viv
Stu


----------



## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

Test Viv has been up and running 3 mths now. Lot's of locally collected moss and UK exposed exotic woods (Mopani and bogwood dumped in the garden years ago) used to decorate it.

Pulling a couple of "evil" ribbon worms a day but no doubt loads more in the substrate.

Loving all the plants and mosses exploding out of dead looking pieces of wood but worried what else is exploding.

I keep chucking in springs and tropical dwarf woodlice and still see them once in a blue moon, but they ain't exactly exploding in population.

Seems to be tonnes of local invertebrate life in there though.

One moment i look at it and think frog heaven, the next I think "nuke it".

Chris


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Sandsifter said:


> Test Viv has been up and running 3 mths now. Lot's of locally collected moss and UK exposed exotic woods (Mopani and bogwood dumped in the garden years ago) used to decorate it.
> 
> Pulling a couple of "evil" ribbon worms a day but no doubt loads more in the substrate.
> 
> ...


Love it! :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Sandsifter said:


> Test Viv has been up and running 3 mths now. Lot's of locally collected moss and UK exposed exotic woods (Mopani and bogwood dumped in the garden years ago) used to decorate it.
> 
> Pulling a couple of "evil" ribbon worms a day but no doubt loads more in the substrate.
> 
> ...


I'm with Ron:lol2:,being me i'll add DW take time how many did you put in there,feed them with a good pinch of readybreak with a tiny pinch of fishflake on top,when its gone give them more,i'll reserve judgement on what the springs will do but hell one can always chuck more in viv,bet the Dw thrive eventually though,its a time thing Chris...and warmth !!!!
Try this and after a week move the feed you'll see your woods at least,also worth popping a torch in there late at night,this might suprise you,it did me,i set our first two vivs up in the green house,a very late very hot couple of days spelt death to all,or so i thought,in the room a month later at midnight with a torch i saw a very different ecosystem at work
Stu


----------



## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

Cheers for that cackle Ron   

Stu, feeding the viv with fish flakes; which do disappear within a couple of days, so something is scoffing them.

Thanks for the ideas, I'll give them a go:

Used to get the head-torch on all the time to see the night-time activity in my reef tank's but have never done it with the Viv.

Not tried increasing the heat yet either. Viv's still moving between 63F and 73F depending on what's going on in the house. 

I'm pretty relaxed about what's going on in the viv atm - just find it fascinating . Really enjoyed building it and there are a couple more on the way to try different things with. I'm hoping a 6 mth fallow period before introducing any frogs MAY remove a lot of frog parasites/diseases present in all the crap i've bunged in :whistling2:

My concern with things like the "evil" nems is more to do with the future and their ability or otherwise to spread from one viv to the next . 

Nems - from what i've read, I can't see the problem with them unless you are unable to keep chucking in new life from cultures? 

Snails/slugs - Not seen any yet, but no doubt they are there somewhere. No immediate plans to keep Pum's etc but would not like to rule them out one day. 

Cheers Guys,

Chris


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Sandsifter said:


> Cheers for that cackle Ron
> 
> Stu, feeding the viv with fish flakes; which do disappear within a couple of days, so something is scoffing them.
> 
> ...


Chris have a dig for sequested tocopherols on dendroboard,they'll explain it a bit better than i ,but basically don't feed to much fish flake,the feeders can block the uptake of Ca by the frogs by assimilating large quantities of cirtain LMFAO thingies:lol2: i think vits,but braindead as usual...learn understand simplyfy forget is my thought process:blush: thats why i use the readybreak as well,and switch completely to veggie bits once close to frogs arriving in a viv.
Interesting stuff on nems on AJC's vitual frogroom, biggest practical problem is they just create more work for the frogger that i can see so far Chris,my rearing tubs get pretty much the same treatment as the vivs but i nuke the whole lot,to be sure then i chuck in some springs the leafmulch starts to go mouldy then the springs go nuts and sort it then chuck in kids and i'm away,i still feed springs almost daily but i don't have any worries because of the quantity in there already which can be unreal
Stu 
and agreed it is fascinating,how it all comes together


----------



## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks again Stu : victory: , learnt a lot from your dendroboard link 
( is there any interspecies competion when utilising different isos in the same viv - Dendroboard for anyone else that wants a look).

Not checked out AJ's virtual Frogroom yet but will do. 

Only found one Nem to squash today though; bit disappointed tbh  

Chris


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Sandsifter said:


> Thanks again Stu : victory: , learnt a lot from your dendroboard link
> ( is there any interspecies competion when utilising different isos in the same viv - Dendroboard for anyone else that wants a look).
> 
> Not checked out AJ's virtual Frogroom yet but will do.
> ...


 That's a fascinating thread!:2thumb:


----------



## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

9 "evil" Nems dispatched today, so the numbers are up or more are on show, but time spent staring at the viv is up a lot. Also saw a couple of DWL out in the open which is new but nice :2thumb:. Have introduced about 20 native woodlice (two species as far as i can see) to see what happens.

Springs are about but not in big numbers.

Viv's full of wee flies that i suspect are actually tiny wasps.. They seem to be thriving in there - spot the maggots in the substrate whenever i have a dig.

Still undecided on nuke or let it run and see what happens.


Ho hum.. 

Chris


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> That's a fascinating thread!:2thumb:


Ed is bafflingly clever isn't he guys,as you can see i struggle abit to keep up with him,i find it hugely inspiring that a guy like that helps new guys like me,bloody inspiring to be honest :notworthy:
Stu


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Sandsifter said:


> 9 "evil" Nems dispatched today, so the numbers are up or more are on show, but time spent staring at the viv is up a lot. Also saw a couple of DWL out in the open which is new but nice :2thumb:. Have introduced about 20 native woodlice (two species as far as i can see) to see what happens.
> 
> Springs are about but not in big numbers.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

soundstounite said:


> Sandsifter said:
> 
> 
> > 9 "evil" Nems dispatched today, so the numbers are up or more are on show, but time spent staring at the viv is up a lot. Also saw a couple of DWL out in the open which is new but nice :2thumb:. Have introduced about 20 native woodlice (two species as far as i can see) to see what happens.
> ...


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I'd have said compost gnats, too. More munchies for the frogs...


----------



## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

Having Googled Compost gnats/flies I think Ron is right again Stu  

Has anyone heard of anyone actually culturing these? They don't seem slow in reproducing..

Nem sport a pathetic 1 today..:bash:

Chris


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Sandsifter said:


> soundstounite said:
> 
> 
> > I'm in no hurry to make up my mind either way Stu. The frog-less viv is a fascination in its own right lol .
> ...


----------



## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

soundstounite said:


> Sandsifter said:
> 
> 
> > good eyes chris,thats exactly what they are doing,might be wrong but i think they spear stuff might be dejested outside excreting enzmyes or something...to tired to think ha ha:whistling2:
> ...


----------

