# Calcium substrate for bearded dragon?



## steveyrockstar (Feb 12, 2014)

Hi there, I've had my baby bearded dragon for 3 months now (he's now 6months old) and have been housing him on 'All Natural Reptilite' calcium substrate, which the pet store promises is totally safe for him.

I've just been reading that you should avoid such substrate at all costs.

Is this true? If it's dangerous, why do pet stores sell it and companies manufacture it? And if it is dangerous, what should I put in his vivarium instead? And is there a quick and easy way to secure this flooring?

I was given some green mats with the vivarium, but how would you clean those everytime he goes toilet on them?

Thanks!
S


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## Spaceisdeep (Mar 19, 2013)

most will advise not to use calci sand and you've already read about the dangers

You can wash the repti carpet in the washing machine or you could try a more natural approach like this

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...-topsoil-substrate-pogona-henrylawsoni-2.html


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## Bradleybradleyc (May 7, 2012)

Spaceisdeep said:


> try a more natural approach like this
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...-topsoil-substrate-pogona-henrylawsoni-2.html


I have just been talking to Tom about this via PM- I'm going this route next weekend- will be picking up supplies this week


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## TheGuvnor (Apr 26, 2013)

Of course ANY loose substrate is a risk. And it will harbor much bacteria.
Reptile carpet or lino are your best bet.
But, its all personal preference.


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## steveyrockstar (Feb 12, 2014)

Thanks guys. That topsoil alternative looks amazing, but I wouldn't have a clue how to do or manage that. I'm not the most practical of people!

With regards to the reptile carpet/lino, presumably you buy 2 x times the amount, so wash in the washing machine/swap round as and when?

Or can you keep it generally clean in the vivarium without having to wash it each time he poopsies?


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## Spaceisdeep (Mar 19, 2013)

steveyrockstar said:


> With regards to the reptile carpet/lino, presumably you buy 2 x times the amount, so wash in the washing machine/swap round as and when?
> 
> Or can you keep it generally clean in the vivarium without having to wash it each time he poopsies?


yeah I had x 2, one in use, one in the wash but it dries pretty quickly if you hang it over a rad so you could get away with one piece

In between changes I just used to wait till the mrs had gone out then use the hoover to suck up his poo:lol2: and give any stain mark a quick rub with some f10


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## steveyrockstar (Feb 12, 2014)

haha legend!:no1:

unfortunately, I've got serious OCD with hygiene and poo related matters, so can't imagine me hoovering up any of his stinkies!


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## Pogonaviti (Jan 21, 2014)

I would advise against it strongly. It clumps when wet and cannot pass through the beardie well and they may be tempted to eat it if calcium is in it.
I'd also advise against the repti-carpet for Beardies. Whilst many have success with this, I've found it to be a hazard for the Beardies claws. They can snag and get caught and could be ripped off. 
I personally use play sand from argos, 15kg at £3 you can't go wrong really. It's toxin free, stain free and it seems to hold heat well so beneficial to the beardie in terms of heat. And whilst it can be hard for the Beardies to digest I've never seen a beardie attempt to eat this stuff but I have seen them try the calcium sand. 
Personal preference though, all substrate has advantages and disadvantages.


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## steveyrockstar (Feb 12, 2014)

But wouldn't the lizard end up eating some of the play sand when he eats crickets in his vivarium, and indeed, if any of the sand gets onto his veg?


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## Pogonaviti (Jan 21, 2014)

I've never had an issue with it, I feed my beardie his veg in a large flat feeding bowl and he does occasionally pull it out of the bowl onto the sand and it doesn't seem to stick to the veg really. If it's wet then I imagine it would but I personally haven't found any issues with it. 
Also, with the live food, I personally have a few branches and a large rock in my viv and the food goes onto them or into the bowl where the veg is and so reduces the risk again. I've found play sand isn't any where near as dusty so doesn't get all over the place when the beardie is running up and down either. 
But, although I have used sand successfully for quite some time now, I would still say that it can have its risks and if you have a messy eater I'd avoid it. Most Beardies grow out of the messy eating stage though and sand seems a perfectly suitable substrate then (as long as there's a few hard things in the viv like rocks for claw trimming)


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## steveyrockstar (Feb 12, 2014)

My girlfriend is suggesting we try out the soil she gets for her tarantula


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## Ryanb0401 (Dec 21, 2012)

An idea that I use... Stone tiles broken up with the sharp edges sorted out, laid out like a mosaic and fill the gaps with play sand. I use it for my leopard gecko and find that the small amount of sand is fantastic, and adds a really natural look to the vivarium. 

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk


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## Jeffers3 (May 18, 2010)

I use slate tiles. It looks good and helps keep their claws down a bit as well. It also absorbs heat well, so is good for basking.


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## Snake Island Reptiles (Feb 6, 2014)

If calcium is sand (Dont know becuse havent ever used it) Iv heard it so extreamly bad for beardies?


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## Pogonaviti (Jan 21, 2014)

Snake Island Reptiles said:


> If calcium is sand (Dont know becuse havent ever used it) Iv heard it so extreamly bad for beardies?


What? This makes no sense.


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## Drayvan (Jul 7, 2010)

If you're beardie is healthy then there's no reason why it should be unsafe. A healthy, properly cared for animal shouldn't feel the need to self supplement on substrate. Any substrate that's ingested should be passed fine if at the right temperatures etc rather than clumping. It is easier for keepers to blame loose or calcium based substrate than to take the blame for poor husbandry. 

Someone on the facebook RFUK made a good point that, going by the animal welfare act, an animal must by law be allowed to preform natural behaviours... not allowing them to burrow or at least dig to an extent surely breaks that? (and no, I don't think scratching at the glass or lino counts)

Calcium sand is made up of calcium carbonate (if it's made of any other form of calcium then yes I would question it's safety) which is the same type of calcium found in supplements, and silica, which is what sand is naturally made of. 

If your animal is healthy, and a good shot when hunting there's no reason why you can't use it. Personally though I prefer using a mixture of playsand and soil for burrowing animals, which seems to be a 'safer' option over calcium sand anyways.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Drayvan said:


> If you're beardie is healthy then there's no reason why it should be unsafe. A healthy, properly cared for animal shouldn't feel the need to self supplement on substrate. Any substrate that's ingested should be passed fine if at the right temperatures etc rather than clumping. It is easier for keepers to blame loose or calcium based substrate than to take the blame for poor husbandry.
> 
> Someone on the facebook RFUK made a good point that, going by the animal welfare act, an animal must by law be allowed to preform natural behaviours... not allowing them to burrow or at least dig to an extent surely breaks that? (and no, I don't think scratching at the glass or lino counts)
> 
> ...


This mostly ^^, I don't understand the whole, it's a risk thing, it is no more risky than any other aspect of husbandry practice, for that one reason people choose not to use a substrate, there is around another 20 other reasons to use one, a well cared for beardie, substrate should not become a health risk, regardless of what it is, or what you choose to use, bark, soil, sand, mixes, etc. 

I am not so sure, it is against the law to not provide a substrate though mate, the five freedoms can be interpretated in a great many ways, so it becomes very subjective in itself, to be able to perform natural behaviors and functions, can be targeted towards eating habits too as an eg. : victory:

I understand that newer keepers may prefer to avoid these things ontil they gain a more full understanding on the topics, and wish to play it safe, but it isn't dangerous, the husbandry alot of keepers apply though is, and this is where things get confusing! 

I have used calcium sand with a variety of lizards, and still do with some I have never seen a case of impaction caused because of it, though if anyone can provide me with some actual evidence, that it is harmful, I would be happy to revise my husbandry, as it is, though, only cases ive seen is mostly in undernourished, dehydrated, parasite ridden animals, or otherwise ill or have eye issues so they are clumbsy at targetting food, in which case, keeping ill animals on particulate isn't the best thing to do anyways.



Pogonaviti said:


> What? This makes no sense.


It makes perfect sense, he is stating he doesn't know if calcium is sand, but he has herd that calci sand is bad for reptiles. : victory:


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## Drayvan (Jul 7, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> This mostly ^^, I don't understand the whole, it's a risk thing, it is no more risky than any other aspect of husbandry practice, for that one reason people choose not to use a substrate, there is around another 20 other reasons to use one, a well cared for beardie, substrate should not become a health risk, regardless of what it is, or what you choose to use, bark, soil, sand, mixes, etc.
> 
> *I am not so sure, it is against the law to not provide a substrate though mate, the five freedoms can be interpretated in a great many ways, so it becomes very subjective in itself, to be able to perform natural behaviors and functions, can be targeted towards eating habits too as an eg*. : victory:
> 
> ...


Aye, you have a good point with that. It's just something that's been doing circles in my head since I read it, it's the sort of thing that (in my mind anyway!) logically makes sense, not allowing a burrowing animal to burrow removes it's ability to express natural behaviours... but as you say, what with how it can be interpreted, it's not that black and white! :2thumb:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Drayvan said:


> Aye, you have a good point with that. It's just something that's been doing circles in my head since I read it, it's the sort of thing that (in my mind anyway!) logically makes sense, not allowing a burrowing animal to burrow removes it's ability to express natural behaviours... but as you say, what with how it can be interpreted, it's not that black and white! :2thumb:


burrowing behavior is easy to mimic even in a sterile conditioned enviroment, what works for one might not for the other though, common sense and all that, my dragons drink right from the spray bottle, when I dampen there substrate, pretty interesting tbh, I meant to record this the other week, but then my camera died. :devil:


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## Pogonaviti (Jan 21, 2014)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> I have used calcium sand with a variety of lizards, and still do with some I have never seen a case of impaction caused because of it, though if anyone can provide me with some actual evidence, that it is harmful, I would be happy to revise my husbandry, as it is, though, only cases ive seen is mostly in undernourished, dehydrated, parasite ridden animals, or otherwise ill or have eye issues so they are clumbsy at targetting food, in which case, keeping ill animals on particulate isn't the best thing to


Calcium sand, is made up of calcium carbonate. This is is the key ingredient in medicenes such as rennies that help balance stomach acids. Too much of this causes an imbalance which means that the absorbtion of food items or in this case, substrate, is severely limited and is much much harder to pass and so sits in the stomach of the reptile. Now this is impaction which as we all know is fatal. 
Healthy animals are inquisitive and Beardies do lick the surroundings, whether healthy or not as a way of establishing themselves with them. (By using the Jacobsons organ) So it's actually only natural for a beardie to lick the substrate and this is where the issues come from with calcium sand.


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## Drayvan (Jul 7, 2010)

Pogonaviti said:


> Calcium sand, is made up of calcium carbonate. This is is the key ingredient in medicenes such as rennies that help balance stomach acids. Too much of this causes an imbalance which means that the absorbtion of food items or in this case, substrate, is severely limited and is much much harder to pass and so sits in the stomach of the reptile. Now this is impaction which as we all know is fatal.
> Healthy animals are inquisitive and Beardies do lick the surroundings, whether healthy or not as a way of establishing themselves with them. (By using the Jacobsons organ) So it's actually only natural for a beardie to lick the substrate and this is where the issues come from with calcium sand.


Calcium carbonate is also the key ingredient of calcium supplements too though? All but 2 ingredients of calci sand is also found in Repashys calcium plus. A small amount from licking substrate should pass through, the same as that from supplements surely? You never hear of impaction from over supplementing, at least I never have. In my mind the issue still isn't the substrate, it's the husbandry.


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## Pogonaviti (Jan 21, 2014)

Drayvan said:


> Calcium carbonate is also the key ingredient of calcium supplements too though? All but 2 ingredients of calci sand is also found in Repashys calcium plus. A small amount from licking substrate should pass through, the same as that from supplements surely? You never hear of impaction from over supplementing, at least I never have. In my mind the issue still isn't the substrate, it's the husbandry.


But the grain size is also a huge factor with this. The supplements have smaller grain sizes and so pass quite easily the calcium sand has large grains and is harder to pass.
If you factor in the supplements, the substrate and any that they can get from the food, then you're probably looking at more calcium carbonate than is needed and over supplementing could lead to a slower absorbtion rate. 
Whilst I do agree that it's a rare occurance and unfortunately impaction isn't something that can always be avoided (happens both in captivity and the wild) it's not caused by only substrate. 
But, I don't like to risk it, when play sand is, to me anyway, nicer to use, better for heat and less dusty. 
I guess there's no hard and fast proof that it's beneficial (although I doubt it would be) or harmful (although I can see the risk, it doesn't seem to be a massive risk). But id personally avoid it, and avoid the small risk that is there, and carry on using play sand (which itself has risks, but not as many in my opinion)


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Pogonaviti said:


> Calcium sand, is made up of calcium carbonate. This is is the key ingredient in medicenes such as rennies that help balance stomach acids. Too much of this causes an imbalance which means that the absorbtion of food items or in this case, substrate, is severely limited and is much much harder to pass and so sits in the stomach of the reptile. Now this is impaction which as we all know is fatal.
> Healthy animals are inquisitive and Beardies do lick the surroundings, whether healthy or not as a way of establishing themselves with them. (By using the Jacobsons organ) So it's actually only natural for a beardie to lick the substrate and this is where the issues come from with calcium sand.


I think, it is very very important to mention here, is that there is a massive amount of difference to injesting something, and something causing an animal to become impacted.

Bearded dragons have simple digestive systems, if they are hydrated enough anything sitting in the stomach should be flushed out of the digestive tract with ease, try dropping some into a vial of vinegar, and see what the result of it is after 48 hours, when you see that result, remember, there digestive system is around 30 times stronger and concentrated than vinegar, fused with muscle traction, and locomotion, good hydration, optimal temperatures for digestion, a miniscule amount of particulate becomes void in any nutritional breakdown in this case, I don't know about you, but I have never seen my bearded dragons actively seek out the substrates I provide, unless they were females which had just cycled, or droped eggs. 

If they are nourished properly, they are less likley to actively seek minerals in the earth itself which in captivity, that means the substrate, if they are parasite free, this makes it less likley for them to injest something to ease gut irritation, if they are hydrated enough, it makes it void for something to sit in the stomach regardless, all cases of impaction, tend to be something sitting with a fault in the care being given, it doesn't just happen over night either, it is a prolonged exposure to the wrong kind of care, the very last point I would agree with you on, accidental injestion, the causes of which could be many, and while many pretty much sit in the void category, I would argue, that injesting a very small miniscule amount of particulate, is much safer, than a large scrumpled up peice of newspaper or kitchen roll. : victory:


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## Pogonaviti (Jan 21, 2014)

I do agree with you, that a healthy beardie would have next to no problems flushing the sand through, and a beardie with poor husbandry will be affected by things 10x worse as they simply can't function correctly due to poor conditions. 
Bearded dragons whilst messy eaters, aren't stupid. Infact they're rather fussy when it comes to food and I've found my beardy will cover things with sand when he doesn't want it. So this suggests that sand is a sort of rubbish bin if you will. So this to me makes the ingestion of sand all that less likely. 
But you always get the one beardie that will break the mold and lick everything obsessively. This is where a healthy beardy could be problematic with loose substrate. 

Personally, I agree with most of what you're saying, but I also wanted to share the negative sides to using it for balance. 
The risk, in a healthy beardy, is next to non. Infact the main reason I moved away from calcium sand wasn't the impaction risk (it's over exaggerated) but it was Infact the cost and the dust it causes. 
I found it too dusty for my liking and not so nice to move. And play sand is about 1/5 of the price per kg.


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