# Covid 19



## levinas (Feb 12, 2013)

Should RF still be allowing the advertising of animals for sale in a lockdowned Britain?
Sale implies collection, even if by courier, if they're still running now cops are stopping free
movement, which should not be occurring in current climate. 
Is purchasing or selling an animal an essential act? Pretty sure the law won't think so. Shops are only still allowed to open to sell meds and foodstuffs, not simply for the sale of livestock. Unless you're [email protected] who think profits are prioritised over anyone elses health.
Btw, thats my relatives working in NHS, and less so the Police, who are risking infection to beat this illness and I for one am concerned about the continued sales and probably breach of lockdown rules.

Thoughts, particularly of admin?

Dean.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

levinas said:


> Should RF still be allowing the advertising of animals for sale in a lockdowned Britain?
> Sale implies collection, even if by courier, if they're still running now cops are stopping free
> movement, which should not be occurring in current climate.
> Is purchasing or selling an animal an essential act? Pretty sure the law won't think so. Shops are only still allowed to open to sell meds and foodstuffs, not simply for the sale of livestock. Unless you're [email protected] who think profits are prioritised over anyone elses health.
> ...


Dean, I appreciate your concerns and I think the NHS are doing a grand job considering decades of cut backs and lack of support from the government. However [email protected], along other pet shops are following government guidelines in that they need to stay open as people need food for their pets. 

I agree that private selling of reptiles where collection is normally the case does seem a tad irresponsible, but the Admin have no control over how the transaction takes place, and if they stopped accepting adds then people would just advertise on other platforms. Yes there is a risk even with couriers, but if they take precautions of deep cleansing the van, social distancing when collecting the snake, and again when delivering then using a reputable reptile courier would be the safest lowest risk.

From what I've heard it is person to person contact that is where the high risk is. Heck if the government feel its safe to deliver letters to everyone


> The Prime Minister will write to every UK household to urge them to stay at home, protect the NHS and save lives.
> 
> A letter from the Prime Minister will land on the doorsteps of 30 million households across all four UK nations from next week.


Then they must feel that the delivery of items, be that couriers or postmen and women must be low risk


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## levinas (Feb 12, 2013)

My local pet shop is following gov guidance. [email protected] requested essential worker status for every employee, meaning they could get kids free care at school and proceeded to cont to see all stock, not just meds or food. That's abusing gov guidance and taking the piss. They also continued to allow free reign on any and all customers to mill around thier shops, so long as they were spending. It's dangerous and immoral.
That advertisers may go to another platform is no excuse for continuing to offer this one. I would argue that majority of purchasers of animals will try to collect, not add expense of courier. It is irresponsible of both seller, buyer and RF to cont as before.
Regardless of cleanliness police are and have stopped vehicles and forced them to turn back. It is not essential work. Gov would argue postal service is. I would tend to agree. They do not think it low risk, they think the they have put in place mitigation that will reduce risk for an essential service.
Person to person contact may be risky, thats why we're on lockdown, but corvid 19 is tested as surviving and infectious for up to 24 hrs on paper, 72 hrs on polypropylene and when produced as an aerosol could survive for upto 3 hrs making airborne infection 'plausible'. Too little is known about the virus and how it operates to make many certain predictions In these circumstances, under these conditions, it is irresponsible to cont allowing ever more temptations to be advertised.
The attitude that, x is doing it so I shall continue, will see the disease spread and increase deaths. Needs stopping dead as much as physical proximity.
It is dangerous and immoral to continue encouraging the movement of people merely to acquire an animal. Do we have to wait for official direction to do the right thing?

Dean


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## Debbie1962 (Dec 5, 2008)

I think a valid point has been made. Whether they advertise somewhere else is beside the point we at least can say we did our bit. At the end of the day it is up to the admin of this site.


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## elishacoombes9 (Sep 5, 2017)

I’ve had people wanting to come pick up a Crestie from me but I’ve had to say no for obvious reasons! Was a bit confused myself as we aren’t allowed out unless essentials as you’ve said.
Couriers are still running though and are taking precautions etc. I have CBM coming to me on the 13th, this was arranged over month ago now though apparently they will be putting my Royal inside a poly box on my step and will knock and go back to their van, they will be leaving gloves for me to then put on to open the box and take my Royal out and go back inside. Then will wait for a message from me to say all is fine and come and get the box and go. They’re doing their bit to make sure we, them and animals are safe. Not read anything or found anything yet to say couriers can’t run, not sure because it’s a delivery service? So maybe classed the same as postman, other couriers etc? 


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## **louise** (Nov 10, 2010)

I was very surprised to see cold-blooded courier is still doing an April run... Is reptile couriering essential?

Edit: didn't read your post Elisha. Hmm, seems like that's a hell of a performance for something which really isn't essential, is it? Let's hope everyone does follow the strict rules or else you're all just helping spread the virus all over the UK!!!


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## elishacoombes9 (Sep 5, 2017)

**louise** said:


> I was very surprised to see cold-blooded courier is still doing an April run... Is reptile couriering essential?



Well I didn’t think I’d be getting my Royal, I expected to have to wait atleast a couple months, but had a text a few days ago now with all details, and other couriers are still working also, not just CBM. I didn’t think getting a reptile was essential either. 


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

elishacoombes9 said:


> Well I didn’t think I’d be getting my Royal, I expected to have to wait atleast a couple months, but had a text a few days ago now with all details, and other couriers are still working also, not just CBM. I didn’t think getting a reptile was essential either.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




There’s a few s/e builders / window fitters around here and they’re still working .. guess they can always ‘say’ the job was an emergency .. 

Could self employed guys carry on working and still claim the government’s 80% fraudulently ?


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## elishacoombes9 (Sep 5, 2017)

Zincubus said:


> There’s a few s/e builders / window fitters around here and they’re still working .. guess they can always ‘say’ the job was an emergency ..
> 
> Could self employed guys carry on working and still claim the government’s 80% fraudulently ?
> 
> ...



I mean they could just not declare it I suppose. But let’s hope that’s not what’s being done with self employed people still working! 


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

elishacoombes9 said:


> I mean they could just not declare it I suppose. But let’s hope that’s not what’s being done with self employed people still working!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Given how many people fraudulently claimed compensation from the Grenfell Fire Fund I’m sure there will be some fiddling the system 


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

In an ideal world everyone would lock themselves away for three weeks, never venturing out, not even to the garden. But we don't live in an ideal world. The government don't have the time to list every possible business that is either closed or open, so they categorize. Pets require food and bedding, so the government state that pet trade in an essential business... so anyone remotely connected with a pet shop licence or licenced to the pet trade will continue to run the business. If that business is also into selling reptiles, and courier companies are still in operation, following better procedures than any other delivery service (amazon, iceland etc), yet still working under government guidelines then they will continue to trade.

There are far more irresponsible people putting others at risk than CB movement or the breeders who use their services, and with the combination of the Easter break and some fine weather ahead things will get a lot worse.


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## GT2540 (Jan 31, 2012)

Zincubus said:


> There’s a few s/e builders / window fitters around here and they’re still working .. guess they can always ‘say’ the job was an emergency ..
> 
> Could self employed guys carry on working and still claim the government’s 80% fraudulently ?
> 
> ...


I don't believe they get a payment until June. They're just trying to put food on the table.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

GT2540 said:


> I don't believe they get a payment until June. They're just trying to put food on the table.


Plus windows is mostly outdoor work and the house owner can stay well away when they need to come inside. The windows would have been ordered several weeks ago and part paid for so I guess they have to fit them as they possibly wouldn't be able to store and then hope they're the correct size for another job.


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

Sky News showed the Swedish Prime Minister telling everyone to carry on as normal and stay calm .. the only measure is a limit of 50 for gatherings .

They send went to a top Swedish hospital medic and she said the medics were terrified and believe that their government have made an horrendous decision to go again the rest of the world’s strategies.

Worryingly one of the UK’s top health advisors has today come out and says he agrees with the Swedish Prime Minister’s theory 











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## StuG (Nov 4, 2009)

Debbie1962 said:


> I think a valid point has been made. Whether they advertise somewhere else is beside the point we at least can say we did our bit. At the end of the day it is up to the admin of this site.


Isn’t there the possibility that this will lead to an increase in people dumping animals? Not to mention be detrimental to site traffic? Some people that have been laid off or that aren’t entitled to money under one of the government schemes might desperately need to move animals on. 

Rather than banning sales for the lockdown I would just add a sticky with a recommendation that delivery/or collection take place after restrictions are lifted.


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## al stotton (Jul 27, 2008)

Looks like all this 2 metre social distance malarkey was , shall we say , somewhat of an underestimate 

https://www.newsmax.com/us/covid-19-virus-social-distancing-wuhan/2020/04/11/id/962443/

This CCP virus is FAR nastier than maybe some originally assumed , far from being 'flu like' it's acting like the HIV virus

https://www.newsmax.com/scitech/hiv-pandemic-covid-19/2020/04/12/id/962500/

This makes sense considering it has (lab inserted) proteins from the HIV virus


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

This is a very interesting view on the whole situation !! 


https://www.effiedeans.com/2020/04/journalism-is-missing-mood-country.html


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Zincubus said:


> This is a very interesting view on the whole situation !!
> 
> 
> https://www.effiedeans.com/2020/04/journalism-is-missing-mood-country.html
> ...


My thoughts exactly. Thanks for posting.


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## levinas (Feb 12, 2013)

What a load of twaddle.

"When you see supposedly independent medical advisors to government tell you what are manifest untruths to shore up a political regime whose credibility is rapidly collapsing, you have to say those advisors have lost thier integrity and our trust", Richard Horton, Editor in Chief of The Lancet.
And my reasoning for no longer watching what I knew as i heard it to be bullshit on these corona bullcasts, melding enough truth with the lies that they think it'll fly.

The blog post reads like a party political broadcast in defence of Johnson against those dastardly journo's. 
"Some people objected. It became clear from reading thier responses that this was usually because they were hostile to government", listing loss of election or Brexit as reason with no evidence to back up her claim, and it is her political position being pushed, not some clinical, medical or even morale boosting position she may hold. Believe me no amount of positivity or morale is going to save an infected person. Decent clinical care will be doing that. Not faith, optimism or bravery. They may make you feel better but clinical improvement in viral infection? No way. Morale does not bring about miracles, thats just utter rubbish.
As for this is unprecedented and people make mistakes? Theres a paper on preparedness for flu pandemic that showed how ill prepared we were and they buried it. Now it comes back to bite the ass that ignored it and the author wants you to forget that, focus on her own version of 'herd immunity' claptrap, morale and positivity. Jesus wept.

My cousin's nursing in a Suffolk hospital, another's in a Psych ward, a doctor working out of a Welsh hospital, a friend's a surgical nurse, intubating patients without any adequate PPE, at times sobbing with frustration, no doubt fear, locked away from her home and family in a hotel to protect them and her patients, now taken to begging for manufacturers in her locality, Kent, to switch production, some how, any how, to produce the PPE that would help keep not only her but her patients safe and well. I myself worked out of a Suffolk hospital until illness made that untenable and I now find myself and both parents listed on NICE guidance to be refused access to a ventilator and instead given a chat on signing a DNR. But blogs author wants you to not note that when clinicians said 30k ventilators, Hancock, my MP btw, over ruled with 17k, with his non existent clinical qualifications. She also doesnt want to discuss the thousands dead because NICE and Hancock colluded to not need the equipment that could save them, or that PPE levels have so routinely been left to dwindle to save cash, that lie upon lie has been told by government on the subject, that offers within the UK to manufacture it were left unanswered to pursue amateur offers by party backers and branded names only, like some kind of elitist suicide pact, or from the EU, ignored or outright refused because 'we're nothing the EU anymore', and government want to go with the Brexit myth that we're putting the Great back into Great Britain. Where are the herd immunity proposers now? In hiding, ill or faking it if some conspiracy theories are to be believed, hoping it all blows over and we forget people died because they dropped the ball, big time. 

If you don't like the 'negativity' of reality, switch off, don't read. But its there with good reason and not because society wants to blacken government. They've already done a fine job of blackening thier 'good name' themselves. But this blog author doesn't want you to think about that. Stay positive, keep morale up and for God's sake dont speak ill of the idiot in number 10 and his big mouth father, even as they sat back and encouraged infection to run amock.
Jesus wept.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

It's sad that to begin with the Tories seemed to be doing so well, yet now its starting to unravel.
The PPE from Turkey debacle for a start. The government claiming it was being sent on Sunday, yet it hadn't even been ordered!
British companies with huge supplies of PPE desperate to sell to the NHS at cost price yet for some reason the government dont want to know!
I am supplied with 4 masks which get replaced when used. The Home Office have said they are made to last a full 8 hour shift.
Odd then that when I have to do a bed watch at the hospital I get asked by a nurse how long I have had it on for as they are good for 3 hours max!
It's also increasingly embarrassing when we turn up to a job with better PPE than the paramedics.


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

ian14 said:


> It's sad that to begin with the Tories seemed to be doing so well, yet now its starting to unravel.
> 
> The PPE from Turkey debacle for a start. The government claiming it was being sent on Sunday, yet it hadn't even been ordered!
> 
> ...




Interesting... I’ve spent a lot of time scouring the internet for info on this virus .. and watched loads of stuff on telly and listened to hours of chat on the radio ... this is what other seemingly knowledgeable people are saying....

~~~~~

As regards those companies who claimed to have offered loads of PPE to the government but were turned down ...

Supposedly SOME of them didn’t even have any equipment at all they were actually just agents / middle men who were actually trying to get big orders and were then going to buy the PPE off someone else to sell to the government at considerable profit .. some of others only had relatively small stocks to sell and as such simply disregarded as the government needed to buy huge quantities .

There were many who actually had decent amounts of PPE but they wanted around TWENTY times the actual value and were simply offering their stuff to everyone and getting them to bid against each other ..


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

In all reality the herd immunity is happening whether anyone likes it or not. Until there is a vaccine there is no other way. I am sorry that people cannot see this but it is true. The Government are trying to reduce the number of people infected until the NHS can cope. There is no other way of coping with this disease and I`m sorry it you dont believe it.

In all reality the government has coped as best as it can . No Government whether blue or red would have coped any better, Even Tony Blair agreed on that earlier in the week.


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## levinas (Feb 12, 2013)

It's a novel virus Colin, no one knows if herd immunity is occurring, so stop spreading unfounded claims. Researchers believe it may provide a weak immune response,no where near to a vaccine response, that any immunity is temporary and can be contracted again, and the damage to bodily organs is severe on one bout of infection.Heart, lungs, liver, all buggered. One of the reasons your words are dangerous. 
I don't believe it because what you say is simply not true or not known.

This government failed And it really could have done better. The herd immunity experiment was just that, a lethal experiment.
And I really don't give 'two hoots' what Tony bloody Blair thinks.

Are you in the UK Colin? US strains of Covid may be less damaging. Researchers have apparently identified 30, which is up from the 3 they indentified weeks before. Another reason your unfounded claims are dangerous, because you dont seem to understand the potential for mutation, or the speed, or the danger. 
You really need to think before you post this crap and stop yourself.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I am not spreading crap Dean. The Government has done as well as any government has. Look at Italy, France , Spain and America. The only two countries that seem to have come out of it any better are New Zealand and Germany for the time being.The government have got some thing s wrong such as testing and PPE but look at the new hospitals being set up the furlough scheme and the billions of pounds injected into the economy.
As for the herd immunity of course ot is a new virus but that's what happens with all diseases until a vaccine is found. Its seems a contagious disease but the death rate isn't as high as SARS . So let's have enough of the political point scoring as we can all be brilliant arm chair Prime ministers.


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## al stotton (Jul 27, 2008)

Anyone recall when we were having all those 'drills' in the U.K in relation to a possible terrorist chemical warfare attack ?

At that time the government created a giant stock of PPE in readiness for any such attacks , the problem is each successive government let that stock deplete. 
Being the penny pinching fools they generally are , these governments just simply let this occur whilst simultaneously not replenishing this stock pile.

End result we are now at the mercy of other countries for this obviously vital kit , its all quite ridiculous really isn't it ?


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

colinm said:


> I am not spreading crap Dean. The Government has done as well as any government has. Look at Italy, France , Spain and America. The only two countries that seem to have come out of it any better are New Zealand and Germany for the time being.The government have got some thing s wrong such as testing and PPE but look at the new hospitals being set up the furlough scheme and the billions of pounds injected into the economy.
> As for the herd immunity of course ot is a new virus but that's what happens with all diseases until a vaccine is found. Its seems a contagious disease but the death rate isn't as high as SARS . So let's have enough of the political point scoring as we can all be brilliant arm chair Prime ministers.


Let's not forget Australia. A seriously low number of deaths. 74 I think? Because they shut down so much quicker than any other country. It has been reported that the UK Government lost 5 vital days at the start of this outbreak by not taking enough action.
I'm not so sure either about the death rate. In the UK, based on the official published figures of confirmed cases and deaths, we are sitting at around a 10% death rate.
The virus spreads rapidly and can be spread by patients who have no symptoms, a pretty unique situation. This is why it is such a threat.
Globally we are now facing a depression. Not a recession, a depression. One predicted to be worse than the Great Depression. Businesses destroyed. Jobs and livelihoods lost forever. People isolated for extended periods of time, lonely, and facing increasing battles with physical and mental health. 
The impact of this virus is set to stay with us for generations.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

al stotton said:


> Anyone recall when we were having all those 'drills' in the U.K in relation to a possible terrorist chemical warfare attack ?
> 
> At that time the government created a giant stock of PPE in readiness for any such attacks , the problem is each successive government let that stock deplete.
> Being the penny pinching fools they generally are , these governments just simply let this occur whilst simultaneously not replenishing this stock pile.
> ...


I think that the problem is that they were overwhelmed by the amount required. We rely too much on cheap imports from abroad. Its a terrible situation and I feel for anyone on the "front line".


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

ian14 said:


> Let's not forget Australia. A seriously low number of deaths. 74 I think? Because they shut down so much quicker than any other country. It has been reported that the UK Government lost 5 vital days at the start of this outbreak by not taking enough action.
> I'm not so sure either about the death rate. In the UK, based on the official published figures of confirmed cases and deaths, we are sitting at around a 10% death rate.
> The virus spreads rapidly and can be spread by patients who have no symptoms, a pretty unique situation. This is why it is such a threat.
> Globally we are now facing a depression. Not a recession, a depression. One predicted to be worse than the Great Depression. Businesses destroyed. Jobs and livelihoods lost forever. People isolated for extended periods of time, lonely, and facing increasing battles with physical and mental health.
> The impact of this virus is set to stay with us for generations.


You are right Ian. The economic impacts are certainly going to go on for years. I doubt that I will see the economy pick up within my working life. The strange thing is that I believe the western nations, or those with a welfare state will be in a bad way. I reckon China ( no conspiracy theory here) is best placed to pick up the pieces assuming the world still trades with them.


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

colinm said:


> In all reality the government has coped as best as it can . No Government whether blue or red would have coped any better, Even Tony Blair agreed on that earlier in the week.




I have no political affiliations and that’s pretty much my take on things as well.

I’m actually amazed how much Boris and his lot have achieved especially in such a short time ..given how long every previous government over about 50 years took to make the slightest possible change or improvements..



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## levinas (Feb 12, 2013)

Sweden's death rate is exceeding 10% (source, John Hopkins) and they still have no idea if or when you lauded bullshit 'herd immunity' will kick in, nor or any idea how long such immunity would last. It's a wonderfully lethal experiment for the rest of the world to follow, for Sweden its just lethal.
You're talking crap, utter crap Colin. Please for God sake stop shilling. Word from my mother this morning is that Millie, in her Welsh hospital, says its 'absolutely awfu here'. Thats not politics, that's just one clinician speaking as she finds.


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