# Wild Caught Specimens in Reputable Reptile Shops



## Lowenna (Feb 6, 2007)

Hi

I've noticed a lot of shops in the 'reputable reptile centres' thread sell wild caught animals. I was wondering how everyone feels about the sale of wild caught animals by good shops.

Vote please :thumb:


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

I didnt vote as I didnt really agree with any of the options you provided. Providing shops are stating WC honestly (many places dont!) I have no problem with it, if the customer knows what they are buying then where's the issue?

Personally there are some species I would prefer to buy wild caught, as this means I can guarantee "fresh blood" for my breeders. So many species have been built up in captive collections from just a handful of wild animals and are now heavily linebred. In these cases wild caught animals are important.


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

well said by pendlehog there...

i have a problem when the WC animals are advertised and sold as CB or CF (this happens more than you know!!) or their capture from the wild causes a depletion in the natural reserve.


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## KenMan (Feb 14, 2007)

TBH I dont really like the though of an animal being taken from its natural habitat and caged up, musnt be a very nice thing to happen...However I aggree with what PendleHog is saying, and I also think its OK when breeding of an endangered species is needed. But I wouldnt buy something thats easily CB, like royals etc


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## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

I voted no, simple because:

1. no animal should be taken from its habitat unless its endangered or something

2. they can pick up all sorts of diseases or parasites in the wild that could be harmful to both them and other pets

3. its unethical. why profit out of something born in the wild? surely its illegal anyway?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

there's a shortage of snakes. look at the prices. where did all the corns and royals come from?. habitat loss is the biggey, not collection, except for some insular species. captive propigation should be promoted. the clock is ticking for many biomes.


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## LeeH (Jan 26, 2005)

if they are in right hands yeah..i think some are too quick with the old assist feeding with the prime example being royals python and many lizards do adapt well
in the ideal world everything would be captive bred but it needs WC to get the CB animals so.....WC are the future of captive bred animals..even the cornsnakes and leopard geckos we all keep came from wild caught animals many years ago
i agree with Pendlehog on the WC bloodline..important for every animal..stops deformities


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

WC are in my opinon a key part of the current reptile trade, simple as it hasnt had the time to develop like many other pet trades have. 

WC specimiums where no capative breed alternative is the only way to keep certain reptiles since no one or very few individuals will keep them, let alone breed them. As such, it is my oinion that the selling of WC specimiums should go to individuals planning on breeding them. As this will eventually reduce the volume of WC animals. I disageree with selling single WC seciums to un experienced keepers. 

WC speciums also allow for the expansion of blood lines, as currently blood lines are so small it wont be long before major problems start to develop, as reps become inbread. 

Jay


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## KenMan (Feb 14, 2007)

Spike, I think that WC should be introduced to bloodlines, like you said, but I dont think that if it "is the only way to keep certain reptiles" then we should keep them, unless breeding them. I wouldnt buy a single WC animal, just because there werent any CB alternatives...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i think spikebrit has a valid point


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## emski (Jan 13, 2007)

I must say i am 100% totally against it. I think it is so cruel, they are taken away from there habitat and then thrown in a box and sent half way across the world. Half of the animals dont make it due to stress and the conditions and about half of the ones who do survive will probly die of parasites or disease's that we or experts have no idea to treat.. They could also pass infection on to your whole collection of reptiles. I do understand that new bloodlines need to be brought in but i seriously think they could be better ways of going around it.. Half of the imports are illegal anyway as many countries now have laws protecting certain species..

Think of it this way out of 20 caught lizards you would be lucky if a quarter survived is it really worth putting the animals through all of that for our own selfishness and greed???


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

emski said:


> I must say i am 100% totally against it. I think it is so cruel, they are taken away from there habitat and then thrown in a box and sent half way across the world. Half of the animals dont make it due to stress and the conditions and about half of the ones who do survive will probly die of parasites or disease's that we or experts have no idea to treat.. They could also pass infection on to your whole collection of reptiles. I do understand that new bloodlines need to be brought in but i seriously think they could be better ways of going around it.. Half of the imports are illegal anyway as many countries now have laws protecting certain species..
> 
> Think of it this way out of 20 caught lizards you would be lucky if a quarter survived is it really worth putting the animals through all of that for our own selfishness and greed???


 
where did your animal originally come from? you are reaping the benifits of the very things you are against. is that somewhat hypicritical (sp) i'm not attacking you but if you give it some thought??:cheers:


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## emski (Jan 13, 2007)

all of my animals are from captive breeders and they are not exactly rare! I can see where you are coming from, but i equally think that there are plenty of reptiles in the country that are captive bred there is no need to go picking things from the wild and indefinatly killing them! If new bloodlines are needed then why cant people be humane about it, instead of not thinking about the animals welfare?


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## CBR1100XX (Feb 19, 2006)

I voted Yes as long as advertised WC.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

yea fazer all my etb's save one was wc. i had no problem with them. they were cheaper and that allowed me to have them. but the guys cutting down the trees are the ones hurting the species. not the people who pay big money and are serious. paying $300 is not an impulse buy. i was so against the influx of royals in the 80's and 90's. a $10 snake? same with $7 iguanas. they had a death sentence because they had no monitary value. take a $7 iguana to the vet? they were disposible to many people. that is a shame.


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## emski (Jan 13, 2007)

wether you pay $10 or $300 its still wrong.. its just how i feel about it.. I am sure they get great homes but i bet they would much rathier be in the wild!


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## mark666black (Feb 18, 2007)

I agree with WC as long as you are told what you are getting. Parasites ect can be treated and this is where the 60 days (at least) Quarentine comes into place.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i think life in captivity is much better. it's a jungle out there. we coddle them and that is way less than they get in the wild. how many of any particular snake makes it to adulthood as compared to their wild brothers?


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## cjreptiles (Nov 13, 2006)

HABU said:


> where did your animal originally come from? you are reaping the benifits of the very things you are against. is that somewhat hypicritical (sp) i'm not attacking you but if you give it some thought??:cheers:


Spot on. It's extremely naive and hypocritical for somebody to be against wild caught animals and then keep species that have only been kept in captivity for a few generations.


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## KenMan (Feb 14, 2007)

cjreptiles said:


> Spot on. It's extremely naive and hypocritical for somebody to be against wild caught animals and then keep species that have only been kept in captivity for a few generations.


Yeah but they havent been taken directly out of the wild...


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## cjreptiles (Nov 13, 2006)

KenMan said:


> Yeah but they havent been taken directly out of the wild...


But their ancestors have. If no-one bought captive bred reptiles, then no reptiles would have to be taken out of the wild in the first place.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

If no one kept reptiles there would be no need for wc reps. Its only in the last few generations of reps that have been CB, and the numbers of species available CB are now increasing thanks to WC speciums. Untill enought wc speciums are available there will never be enougth CB speciums to maintain demand. 

To be anti WC animals and keep any reptile is a very uneducated approach to take, in my opinion. As it is only relativly recently (in respect of the pet trade) that CB speciums and thats only thanks to wc speciums. THis is the smae with any pet, origionally once the ancesters were WC. It is only through WC that we get CB. CB animals don't just apper in cages one day they had to be taken and bread, then bread more. Its the same as and animal not just reps. It just so happens that recently people have been interested in keeping reps (in comparision to the pet trade).

Jay


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

well said spike brit.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

:up: well said spike brit.


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## emski (Jan 13, 2007)

Well obviously they dident just appear in cages, i am not stupid and i can see why people say that i am a hypocrite because i keep reptiles and at some point down the line they would of been wild caught. But people are totally missing the point i am trying to get at.. I understand that animals may need to be wc to keep different bloodlines,research and to inroduce new species but why cant it be done in a respectable way to the animal. I wouldent buy a wild caught animal of any type wether it had scales or fur this is partly because of the risk of parasites etc.. and the fact that i dont feel comfortable that the animal has been brought into the country correctly or humanly. All i am saying is, that it could be monitored better and the animals concerned get the best treatment and are not transported or caught in such a way that it could damage their health.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

I agree there may be needs for Wc however it really needs to be advertised that an animal is WC.

i recently purchased a Japalura that was adveritsed as CB.. I am now almost 100% sure this was wrong... were just waiting to find out this week if he has parasites... 

if the guy had only told me I could have made a more informed descision.. I guess I feel stupid for believing him... maybe because I wanted to believe it was a CB to make me feel better. I should have known better that japalura Splendidas are hardly going to be CB...

I guess it was my own fault for accepting what the pet shop said also....


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

:d :d  :d :d


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

emski, i of all am not attacking you. you have a very valid and noble position. i just know that by living in the states and in japan and in central america, that the folks that live there would smash a snakes head in without blinking an eye. i don't think that the hobby has completely matured. look at dummerils, look at indians look at many species, that are almost gone in the wild. with the husbandry nowadays, it may be the only hope for some snakes. we can deal alot better with parasites than the "old days" keepers are much more sofisticated now. propigation is the solution in my opinion. someday wc's will be rescues.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

What about "yes I think it is fine, and support the WC trade fully" as an option. 

Yeah, some animals there is no need for wild caught, and it doesn’t happen. When is the last time you saw a wild caught corn?

Others are bred in large numbers, but due to clutch size etc, cannot produce the numbers necessary for the pet trade. (Royals)

Some are not bred, and may never breed in captivity, and some make fantastic captive animals. 

I am therefore behind the selling of wild caught, captive farmed, and whatever else should crop up. 

As long as these conditions are met. 

1) The animal is fit and healthy, and a record of capture date is known, and it is not sold before being in captivity for 6 weeks. (So it is healthy, and like you wouldn’t sell a baby before x age, so an animal with no background shouldn’t be sold.)
2) It is CLEARLY labelled as WC, PW OR LTC (wild caught, previously wild or long term captive)
3) It is treated for both internal and external parasites before sale.
4) The buyer has significant experience to deal with any issues that reasonably may arise. 
5) The animals have healthy populations in the wild, or a bred in captivity to "preserve a species" in the latter case the animals should only be sold to experienced breeders. 

Regards
Dan


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I sell WC animals in some numbers, because to be quite honest - there is a demand for it!

How exciting would reptile shops be, or picking out a new species, if all you could get were leopard geckos and corn snakes and beardies and the other "bred in quantity" animals. It is the new species that make reptile keeping so much more interesting and exciting for the hobbyist.

We learn new things from new species, watch new behaviours, educate ourselves and others.

However, things are sometimes incorrectly labelled, which can lead to problems. Buyers should always be informed. Sometimes people don't ask and are then upset if they believe themselves to have been misinformed. I always encourage people to buy in pairs where possible and try to provide animals adequately sexed, and ask them to bring eggs back if they don't want to incubate them. I think there need to be more breeders of ALL reptiles - and the more people who captive breed, the less demand there will be for Wild Caught, until one day, it is all but wiped out. As with corns and leos, you only get WC rarely, and for the purposes of new bloodlines.

However, take the legalities of Australia, where some reptiles are now completely unobtainable to us. There are some things we will never see in shops, in private collections.. and can only see in pictures, and that is a shame.

Everyone who buys a reptile no matter how many generations down the line it is, supports a hobby which is established from collecting specimens from the wild.

Campaign for better transportation, better importation, better veterinary treatment, honest traders... but I agree with the people who have said anyone who keeps reptiles and is 100% against WC animals is supporting a hobby that thrives on new blood and new species.

I can only hope that in 20 years many of the things you only see WC will be established CB as we learn & grow


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

darkdan99 said:


> What about "yes I think it is fine, and support the WC trade fully" as an option.
> 
> Yeah, some animals there is no need for wild caught, and it doesn’t happen. When is the last time you saw a wild caught corn?
> 
> ...


well said

Jay


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

athravan, you are officially on my christmas list: victory:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

is every body mad at me?


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

emski said:


> Well obviously they dident just appear in cages, i am not stupid and i can see why people say that i am a hypocrite because i keep reptiles and at some point down the line they would of been wild caught. But people are totally missing the point i am trying to get at.. I understand that animals may need to be wc to keep different bloodlines,research and to inroduce new species but why cant it be done in a respectable way to the animal. I wouldent buy a wild caught animal of any type wether it had scales or fur this is partly because of the risk of parasites etc.. and the fact that i dont feel comfortable that the animal has been brought into the country correctly or humanly. All i am saying is, that it could be monitored better and the animals concerned get the best treatment and are not transported or caught in such a way that it could damage their health.


no ones attacking you, hun, and i hope it wasnt taken as one. 

No one is saying that wc animals shouldnt be carred for, looks after correctly and treat humanly. The WC animal train is monitored as far as i know quite well. Though there are still alot of bad wc animals. You just have to find the right importers. 

So if u wanted a new species of rep something other then corns, leos and beardies and it was only available WC, you wolnt get a pair, and breed thenm to incease CB numbers???

jay


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

emski said:


> all of my animals are from captive breeders and they are not exactly rare! I can see where you are coming from, but i equally think that there are plenty of reptiles in the country that are captive bred there is no need to go picking things from the wild and indefinatly killing them! If new bloodlines are needed then why cant people be humane about it, instead of not thinking about the animals welfare?


What about reptiles that are on the threat of extinction from habitat loss due to forests being chopped down and humans ever expanding taking a few from the wild and then captive breeding would help keep the species survive so in a way is better than they go extinct. As far as protection if someone can aquire the right permits and documents they can collect cited species but providing they have every possible document they need and more. WC royals and corns there is no real need for it as there as so many cb so dont see the point but species that are less available dont have prob with pet shops having wc. I would be happier that a well known and good knowledgeable pet shop has them than pet shop that doesnt know much. Parasites can be a hazard but thats where screening comes in and would not be sold till health check and store quarantine comes in.


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

emski said:


> wether you pay $10 or $300 its still wrong.. its just how i feel about it.. I am sure they get great homes but i bet they would much rathier be in the wild!


every reptile you house would love to get out in the wild if they escaped into your garden and fled to the nearest woods they would be happy so its kind of invalid point.


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

emski said:


> Well obviously they dident just appear in cages, i am not stupid and i can see why people say that i am a hypocrite because i keep reptiles and at some point down the line they would of been wild caught. But people are totally missing the point i am trying to get at.. I understand that animals may need to be wc to keep different bloodlines,research and to inroduce new species but why cant it be done in a respectable way to the animal. I wouldent buy a wild caught animal of any type wether it had scales or fur this is partly because of the risk of parasites etc.. and the fact that i dont feel comfortable that the animal has been brought into the country correctly or humanly. All i am saying is, that it could be monitored better and the animals concerned get the best treatment and are not transported or caught in such a way that it could damage their health.


Have you ever been on an expedition with herpetologists who collect the species for breeding, research and inevitably the survival? They would be shipped and dealt with appropriately and humanely not boxed up together in the thousands by guerillas and biopirates and poachers. How would you do it in a respectable way? How do you know that the python or boa or gecko whatever has been collected and shipped to UK wasn't without permits and import/export documents applying. People who collect and are legit following every regulation and law have to go through so much that you could'nt comprehend for their passion of the animals and passion of the hobby but do it.


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

i didnt actually vote but thought id have my say anyway,i can see both points,but a few months back i had a very blinkered opinion,i was totally against WC as it seems needless,ive realised obviously this is an inportant part of a breeding program to avoid inbred,deformed animals so if done humanly then it of course has to be done,personally tho i would never buy WC as i dont intend to breed,i think the key point should be WC should be sold only to breeders who have the intention of using this bloodline to aid us other keepers in having CB reps sometime in the future,i dont see any need for people to buy WC just because its an interesting/rare creature, if they have to be taken out of their natural habitat then it should be for a good reason and for the good of the species not just to keep us happy,hope that makes sense


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

That does make sense and i do agree, maybe wc specimens should only be sold to breeders or experienced herps who collect and have had reptiles for many years if there is succeful breeding from them in time they become cb and then become more available to others .So i agree that wc that are not commonly available and not a great deal of info is available should not be sold to the novice. Makes sense. I wouldnt spend hundreds maybe even thousands on a wild caught pair that dont know and awful lot about when i could leave it for someone with years captive keeping and breeding snakes at least then cb is likely to be more successful and a lot more info on how to take care of them in cb. I buy wc adult tarantulas that are not commonly available but I was heavily involved with collecting spiders and dealing with them, eventually breed them however would skip on the snakes and geckos.


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## emski (Jan 13, 2007)

I give up!!!!!! Thanks to those who said that they were not attacking me its appriciated, Spider man seems to want to attack everything i say so i will leave it at that... I was only saying it could be done in a nicer way thats all.......


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## tom1400 (Jan 21, 2007)

my opinion is that the animal should be left where it is. If it was us i don't think i would like to be put from my own home into somewhere i don't like. It's perfectly fine for them to be bred in captivity because they are used to where they are.


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## jml220679 (Aug 1, 2006)

fair enough zoos etc having wild caught for breeding purposes. as for general public buying wc i don't think there is any need and i certainly wouldn't buy any wc from a shop.


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

emski said:


> I give up!!!!!! Thanks to those who said that they were not attacking me its appriciated, Spider man seems to want to attack everything i say so i will leave it at that... I was only saying it could be done in a nicer way thats all.......


i get your point,read my post(prev page) think that covers what your saying,its all about having an opinion love,thats what a polls for so your opinion is as valid as the next


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## scotshop (Apr 20, 2007)

Spikebrit said:


> To be anti WC animals and keep any reptile is a very uneducated approach to take, in my opinion. As it is only relativly recently (in respect of the pet trade) that CB speciums and thats only thanks to wc speciums. THis is the smae with any pet, origionally once the ancesters were WC. It is only through WC that we get CB.
> Jay


 
I agree with what you are saying, obviously. BUT would you buy a WC parrot? I certainly wouldn't.
I would take in WC species on order for someone if they wanted something particular that couldn't be found CB but i will not have them in my shop for the following reasons:

*1 *- only happy to sell hand tame animals

*2* - do not want to risk contaminating my healthy CB stock

*3* - do not expect staff to handle WC as they are often jumpy/ aggressive

*4 *- as far as is reasonably possible would like to minimise any stress caused to animals themselves and the many many unnecesary deaths of WC imported animals.


*p.s* I AM NOT having a go at anyone here that owns, sells WC reps - I actually have a couple of the rarer species myself. All i am saying is I am not happy to sell them as general stock.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

scotshop said:


> I agree with what you are saying, obviously. BUT would you buy a WC parrot? I certainly wouldn't.
> I would take in WC species on order for someone if they wanted something particular that couldn't be found CB but i will not have them in my shop for the following reasons:
> 
> *1 *- only happy to sell hand tame animals
> ...



Im not sure there is the current need for WC parrots, then again i know very little about parrots. IF there was a requirment for extanded blood lines within breeding parrots then maybe it would need to be considered. As far as im aware there are presently enougth parrots within capativity to cover demand as such i dont see the need for WC. This is not the same for reps, Very few reps ion respect are bread frguently enougth to meet the need for them in capativity. 

Alot of WC animals are hand tame, often just as healthy as CB species if treated correctly, and are not always jumpy. At presently my steno's are all WC, the reson is the S.Petrii are not available CB despite me searching for a few years. As such i had to purchase WC specims, these were done from somone i know trears animals well despite meaning i had to travel a long distance. I also intend to breed the ones i have so as future keepers have a greater possiability of CB speciums. 

jay


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

tom1400 said:


> my opinion is that the animal should be left where it is. If it was us i don't think i would like to be put from my own home into somewhere i don't like. It's perfectly fine for them to be bred in captivity because they are used to where they are.


where do you think all your animals came from origonly. it wasnt that long ago the no CB reps were available. All animals in capativity have to come from thw wild at some point then are breed in capativity so that future keeps can have CB animals. 

If no one had ever started taking animals from the wild we wouldn't have CB ones now. Though, there is very little need for WC animals of corns, leo and beardies. Though anything that little biit different is hard to get hold of i capativity. 

Jay


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## jml220679 (Aug 1, 2006)

what i don't understand is why so many shops selling WC species available CB. for example, long tailed skinks, collared lizards etc.


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

everything we have derives from wc animals,bit hypocritical to wait for others to do all the hard work producing F1/F2 cb animals and then decide that wc is totally wrong.
as HABU says its habitat destruction thats the main killer followed by the skin trade
damn... forgot where i was going with this...laterz


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## masticophis (Jan 14, 2007)

I too didn't vote. The WC debate is too big for a simple answer.

For instance, it's a sad fact but the world revolves around trade/gain, in the poor countries the people either need to chop down forests to provide farmland, or sell some of their natural resources. Now much as many people hate WC animals, the amount of snakes that are captured and killed for the skin trade, health potions and food massively outweigh any numbers of pet shop animals. The native peoples have to do this to survive basically, now if we pay decent money for well cared for WC/CF animals and we educate them to preserve their wildlife then maybe they will not destroy it all but keep them as a renewable resource. 
On some of these farms now then people are capturing WC females, looking after them till they lay then returning them to the wild, with the hatchlings a percentage is kept for resale to skin trade, pet trade or whatever, but the rest are given a few feedings and then released. The majority of deaths on snakes are going to be while they are trying to get their first feeds to start them off. If they are released after a few feeds then more tend to survive.

So in this way WC/CF animals can be a benefit to wild populations by keeping the numbers of wild animals at a good leel and providing the natives with an income so they don't have to rip up the forests.

It's certainly not clear cut that way, or any way. But the wider picture MUST be looked at and everything considered. There are many more pros and cons for WC, but it's not all bad.

Mike


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## zenzaris-spudling (Apr 17, 2007)

this seems to be a very grey area that people are trying to slot into a black and white answers. personally i feel there is a time and a place to introduce fresh blood, be it from wc (or cb in other countries). It should not be looked upon in a bad light if done for the right reasons. Responsible breeding should mean looking out for the species both in numbers and health and this will require some wc from time to time.


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

To the people saying about how 'vital' it is to bring new bloodlines in i give you the example of Rhacodactylus, all exportation from New Caledonia is banned and no new shipments of Crested Geckos have been brought in since the initial transport of the species after they were rediscovered in 1994. Are they suffereing adversely? Certainly doesnt seem so? I agree that in time, controlled importation will need to be introduced to control inbreeding, but ONLY to responsble experienced breeders. And not ALL the time.

It makes me angry when i see needless imports of animals being sold via classifieds with no specification that they be bred. 

At the end of the day, pets are a luxury, not a nessecity, and they should be treated with respect. If Captive royals do not produce large enough clutches to sustain demand, then im sorry but the people who want them should just have to lump it and wait longer. Now that the species is succesfully CB, theres NO need to keep importing. Think of it this way, if the demand for children to adopt was more than the supply of orphaned children, would it be right to take children from their homes where they are already settled just so that the people who want to adopt can have what they want?


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

i have been "moaned" at a few times for comparing animals to childern, and i think 'tis only fair to moan at you so... "aminals and kiddiwinks are two differnt thingy-majigs" 

but hey, i see your point. 

Cresties are fairly "rare" in terms of avalability, and are not commonly seen in the majority of petshops. they are also priced quite highly (in comparison to simlar animals)

the reason for this is a relativly small populas, being bred. this in turn will lead to in-bred, and possible deformitys in future years. 

surly from a keepers point of view, it would be better to introduce wild bloodlines, and have a healthy and deep gene pool to breed from. that would ensure the longvity, and stability of the speices for "ever"


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

thats exactly what i said if you read it throuoghly, but the fact that this has not happened in over 10 years proves that the need for new bloodlines is perhaps once a year, not a week. People promoting WC for new bloodlines dont realise that these problems arnt just going to happen over 1 year. These things take time.

The price of the Rhacs is relatively high yes, but falling and not overy expensive when you look at leo morphs and the variety of colours these animals come in when you relate them. I would much rather pay 20 pounds mroe for an animal that i know has ecological security than contribute to the destruction of our planet for the of money.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Art_Gecko101 said:


> thats exactly what i said if you read it throuoghly, but the fact that this has not happened in over 10 years proves that the need for new bloodlines is perhaps once a year, not a week. People promoting WC for new bloodlines dont realise that these problems arnt just going to happen over 1 year. These things take time.
> 
> The price of the Rhacs is relatively high yes, but falling and not overy expensive when you look at leo morphs and the variety of colours these animals come in when you relate them. I would much rather pay 20 pounds mroe for an animal that i know has ecological security than contribute to the destruction of our planet for the of money.


but thats surly what a majority of those pro wc have been saying. Wc animals do need to be carried out ro expand blood lines, though only sold to breaders that will use the animal to expand blood lines. I think most people will agree there is no need for WC speciums of reps that are already bred in large enougth volumes for the pet trade. 

But what about animals that are not readable available as CB in the pet trade?? Do you support WC speciums of them so that people can bread them for future generations??

As prevous said i don't belive there is a definative black and white answer rather somthing in the gray area in the middle. 

Jay


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

when i can get a gtp for $100us, then we'll have enough wc's. just my opinion.


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## LeeH (Jan 26, 2005)

imagine if the people who first bred these reptiles shared the same views as some..where would the cornsnakes,kingsnakes,leopard geckos and crested geckos and bearded dragons we have be today that you shouldn't take them from the wild as its unacceptable but you are keeping as of now the rewards of someones or a few peoples breeding success years ago...now information is tried and tested on breeding and care with the advances of herptoculture all we need to do is pick up a book or a caresheet but what if a few dedicated experienced individuals bred wild caught..its what we all aim to do throughtout keeping..producing top quality herps
lucky due to others efforts we have the choice of captivebred animals today..yemen and panther chameleons,GTPs and colour types of many reptiles but all couldn't be achieved if someone didn't take the chance.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

art gecko, sorry, i missed that point (trust me to lol)

i honestly cannot see the problem with selling WC animals to anyone who has the expiriance to care for them properly. 

certainly not for sale to a newb, but you wouldnt sell a retic, gtp or a few other things to a newb either. 

in "reputable" pet shops, that care who they sell to, i cannot see the problem. i think they should reccomend breeding to the new owners, but that ultimatly, is the new owners choice.


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## darren.j.b (Sep 20, 2006)

i 100% agree with spikebrit. well said


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

> But what about animals that are not readable available as CB in the pet trade?? Do you support WC speciums of them so that people can bread them for future generations??


Yes i think i said, or meant to anyway that it is needed to support captive populations, like the work done in zoos, but ONLY sold to reputable breeders who already have an established record captive breeding. You cant expect any old person who walks into a petstore wanting a bosc to start there captive breeding successfully... its impractical to suggest to newbs that they should breed as they may get in over there heads and do more harm than good.



> when i can get a gtp for $100us, then we'll have enough wc's. just my opinion.


This is just the kind of greedy self-centred attitude that we need to abolish. You are completely devalueing the animal?! Why should the wild population be abused just so that you can have a beautiful stunning animal for next to nothing. If you want a GTP that much and value its life and beauty, you'd save up and pay the going price for a CB one.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

I haven't voted because of the options... they are a little one end of the spectrum and the other


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Art_Gecko101 said:


> Yes i think i said, or meant to anyway that it is needed to support captive populations, like the work done in zoos, but ONLY sold to reputable breeders who already have an established record captive breeding. You cant expect any old person who walks into a petstore wanting a bosc to start there captive breeding successfully... its impractical to suggest to newbs that they should breed as they may get in over there heads and do more harm than good.


To be fair i can't see any reptiable shop in generall selling bosc and retics to newbs. Most first time keepers will choice the standsrd starter lizard, which are available CB. I didnt but then again i had experience with other insects and mamals. My first reps were my steno's which were sadly WC, tho i plan on breeding them. Most pople who get into reps will choose the standard types of rep which are availbale CB. I also agree WC reps shouldn't be sold to newbs its not fair on the animal.

Jay


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

Spikebrit said:


> To be fair i can't see any reptiable shop in generall selling bosc and retics to newbs. Most first time keepers will choice the standsrd starter lizard, which are available CB. I didnt but then again i had experience with other insects and mamals. My first reps were my steno's which were sadly WC, tho i plan on breeding them. Most pople who get into reps will choose the standard types of rep which are availbale CB. I also agree WC reps shouldn't be sold to newbs its not fair on the animal.
> 
> Jay


 
mmm I dont know to be honest, i was in a shop only a few weeks ago where the biggest idiots ive ever seen (they didnt realise that all the snakes the shop sold ate mice... their reply was.. what even the little ones?! the shop didnt even have hatchlings of anything..:bash: ) and they were trying to buy a boa. 

Lots of the geckos such as your Stenos, and Tokays etc which can be CB are all available in shops WC, same with frogs.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Art_Gecko101 said:


> mmm I dont know to be honest, i was in a shop only a few weeks ago where the biggest idiots ive ever seen (they didnt realise that all the snakes the shop sold ate mice... their reply was.. what even the little ones?! the shop didnt even have hatchlings of anything..:bash: ) and they were trying to buy a boa.
> 
> Lots of the geckos such as your Stenos, and Tokays etc which can be CB are all available in shops WC, same with frogs.


There's a few idiots about. Yer they can be CB but people just don't for some reason, well a few do but not in any large numbers. Eventually, you can only hope that it will change, but for the time being it cant really be avoided. 

Jay


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

responsible harvesting is a viable practise. it's a renewable resource and brings much needed money to 3rd world peoples, as in the case of parts of west african. prices of cb reptiles strictly follow the law of supply and demand. but i'm in no way condoning exploitation. the hobby hasn't fully evolved. there is still a place for wc's. don't think that all wc's constitutes rapeing of wild populations. being american, i say to each his own. if you want only cb's or organic food or biodiesel, then more power to you. but the farming they do with snakes in places like new guinea, is a good thing in my opinion. it maybe makes the locals take a bit more care of their wild things. not trying to start anything just giving my slant on things.: victory:


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