# Boelens Python



## Central Scotland Reptiles

I am hoping for a decent year in terms of production so would like to realise a lifelong dream of owning a Boelens Python: _S. boeleni_


I appreciate the restrictions both in terms of breeding, importation and my own budget but I was wondering if anyone has any leads on availability - sex is unimportant?


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## MKHerps

NERD had one for sale on Morphmarket earlier in the year. Think it was $6000/7000 Something like that? Doesn’t really help you much but they might be worth contacting?


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## MKHerps

Sorry I fibbed it was a hatchling female for $8000 last year


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Yes I seen that but that sort of price is beyond me and from what I understand is for a CB Indonesian Import. 


Genuine CB European animals were going for 6000 Euro last year.


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## ian14

Crystal Palace Reptiles have had them for about £1500.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Yes, this is the sort of price I was hoping for. I shall contact them to see if / when they may be getting some more in. 




ian14 said:


> Crystal Palace Reptiles have had them for about £1500.


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## MKHerps

More available than I realised for sure. Why is there such a big price difference do you reckon?


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

I wouldn't like to comment on the price being asked by NERD as that is entirely up to them but to my understanding, there has always been a disparity between Europe and the US pricing. - not sure if that is due to availability or rules regarding importation. 


Indonesia greatly restricted the export of this species a few years ago and ever since the price seems to have been going up and up (a case of supply and demand obviously).




MKHerps said:


> More available than I realised for sure. Why is there such a big price difference do you reckon?


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## dmreptilebreeder

You will be lucky to get one under £3500 , if there was a add for crystal Palace Reptiles wit one at £1500 it will be yearssss old.


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## ian14

dmreptilebreeder said:


> You will be lucky to get one under £3500 , if there was a add for crystal Palace Reptiles wit one at £1500 it will be yearssss old.


That was only last year, possibly the year before


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## dmreptilebreeder

ian14 said:


> That was only last year, possibly the year before


Times changed but if you see one around that price tag me I'll be on it :2thumb:


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## Malc

Well if it's anything to go by, NERD had a 2020 hatchling male listed for $8000 (sold)

https://newenglandreptilestore.com/collections/frontpage/products/2020-captive-born-male-boelens-python-simalia-boeleni

Found a few hens teeth and the odd sprinkling of gold dust... seems these are more common than Boelens


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## ian14

dmreptilebreeder said:


> Times changed but if you see one around that price tag me I'll be on it :2thumb:


I'm fairly certain it had been reduced to that price after being on their list for months


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## corallus uk

ian14 said:


> That was only last year, possibly the year before


No that would have been before 2015 as they were around £1995 then. Go on an internet archive and search the website for July 2015 and it shows the prices on that years Indonesia import. £1895 in 2014.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150808071132/http://www.crystalpalacereptiles.com/


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## ian14

corallus uk said:


> No that would have been before 2015 as they were around £1995 then. Go on an internet archive and search the website for July 2015 and it shows the prices on that years Indonesia import. £1895 in 2014.
> 
> https://web.archive.org/web/20150808071132/http://www.crystalpalacereptiles.com/


That sounds about right. Got my years mixed up!!


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## corallus uk

ian14 said:


> That sounds about right. Got my years mixed up!!


Easily done when you lead a rock and roll lifestyle :no1:


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Alas I think a Boelens Python will still be beyond my reach this season. :-(


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## loxocemus

Fraser have u thought of keeping/raising some diamonds under the very similar methods and cage designs of boeleni, it would be a very good trial run of methods and madness before u shell out the multi-thousands required for the boeleni.

Parameters and equipment could be narrowed down and the experience would be invaluable 

I still remember a loooooong time ago, the barkers article in the vivarium, captive breeding of the angolan python, congrats again : victory:

Rgds
Ed



Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Alas I think a Boelens Python will still be beyond my reach this season. :-(


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

You don't happen to have a copy of that article do you?

Yes, I have long since considered Diamond Pythons - I will give it some serious consideration this year.



loxocemus said:


> Fraser have u thought of keeping/raising some diamonds under the very similar methods and cage designs of boeleni, it would be a very good trial run of methods and madness before u shell out the multi-thousands required for the boeleni.
> 
> Parameters and equipment could be narrowed down and the experience would be invaluable
> 
> I still remember a loooooong time ago, the barkers article in the vivarium, captive breeding of the angolan python, congrats again : victory:
> 
> Rgds
> Ed


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## al stotton

Boelens are what I call an enigma species , there has always been a certain mystique surrounding them.

I have to admit , having seen them up close and even handled one , they are very beautiful snakes.


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## John1975

Did you every Make any contacts regarding The Boelens. I’m sure you’ve looked but I was added to simalia Boeleni on face book.Its Ari flagles page. I’m sure your aware he basically goes to the islands several times a year to do research. Very interesting stuff I’ve ordered the book he wrote. Swedish guy seems to be the only person knocking babies out with any regularity. I’m sure they are astronomical money wise. Worth a look if you haven’t already 👍


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

I have seen a couple for sale but nobody wants to take my right arm, kidney and right eye for one. (aka they are about £8000 each)


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## John1975

You looked at the fb page I mentioned. Seems these animals copulate at the drop of a hat but the formula for successful production is largely unknown. Probably not unlike your success with the Angolans. Well done btw


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Yes, I am a member of that group. I would really love to give them a try but they are prohibitive due to their price. 

Thank you, in terms of the Angolan Pythons - I just feed them!! 



John1975 said:


> You looked at the fb page I mentioned. Seems these animals copulate at the drop of a hat but the formula for successful production is largely unknown. Probably not unlike your success with the Angolans. Well done btw


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## loxocemus

they are horny little buggers but the problem is the females won't follow thru with ovulation (males will easily produce hybrids), so why won't they ovulate when a ball python has no issues, carpets have no issues (scrubs approach their difficulties), its their unique habitat and the unique way they have evolved to survive there.

high uv, low ambient, intense sunbursts, burrow life, melanism to store and shuttle heat< in that mix is the solution

iv thought about trying them but like Fraser, cost versus the most expensive pet in the world?

but Fraser is crushing it in breeding rarity this year so if anyone has the , I was going to say skill and u need that, but the good keepers (like my friends elle, Heather and her ball and chain : victory and Fraser have an intuition, a thousand tiny indicators spread over a year or two years or more, leading to a game changer tweak, that intuition, (Heather and Carey have bismarks and sanzinia just dialed in, I'm equal parts jealous, envious and in awe at that level of skill, of care, of success)

plus there is also this (iffy now I reread it) possibility, taking an animal of a wild generation, from the clouds and placing it in Texas in Japan etc may simply be a biological incompatibility that can't be tweaked, except for a tiny number of females who by some genetic quirk will settle, will call a foreign land home (+After u stumble upon the magic mix) so add those together leads to the current situation, I love hypothesising about boelens, difficulty+rarity+beauty= the boelens enigma.

rgds
ed



if that worked out, can you imagine








John1975 said:


> You looked at the fb page I mentioned. Seems these animals copulate at the drop of a hat but the formula for successful production is largely unknown. Probably not unlike your success with the Angolans. Well done btw


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Thanks Ed, I appreciate your kind words. 


You and I have hypothesised before about some of the possible stimuli to breeding this species. I hope some day to be given the opportunity to try some of them.


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## John1975

I know people love morphs but any boeleni mix would be just rude in my opinion. I don’t even like carpondros tbh it pisses me off that every jungle or diamond may or may not Have a bit of blood from the other. Probably not popular with the morph guys I know. Some are undoubtedly attractive but they’re diverse unique genes that evolved over millennia that mesmerised us all enough to read Obsess build cages fork out a small fortune. Genes that evolved either side of deserts mountain ranges and seas before we’d learned to Wear trousers! All erased in a few decades for a claimed world first. I shouldn’t judge too much I know. I keep animals in boxes fir my own amusement which is fundamentally questionable really. In my opinion though, if you don’t love the purity and unique beauty of a diamond,a gtp or even bredli I don’t don’t think you love pythons. Boeleni are the holy grail. I think it’s a crime to dirty the gene. In next to no time you can’t claim species like chondros no one really can claim true localities and now they are considered true sub species. I’ve got 4 diamonds. They look like diamonds So do they’re parents they are claimed pure. No one knows if they are. It’s a shame. A 75% diamond looks like a diamond and you’d breed it a year earlier with more success. Not a diamond though. Years down the line who’s to say a hybrid wouldn’t result from something from the scrub complex. Then back to Boelens?maybe throw some white lip in for good measure. Bit if a stretch I know. Or a bredli. Not unlike boelens As Babies. Get that to 75/88 boelens and your knocking out clutches of 20+ from 3’1/2 yr old girls and we can all buy one yeah! They’re not the real deal though stick them up the mountain again and they’ll peg it. I’m fully aware these are probably too unique to cross or pass off as pure but it certainly applies to lots of other species. Even If I was wedged up I’d have enough respect for these to consider not owning one due to the low chances of my success. Not to suggest others shouldn’t.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

The goal is to get at least 1.1 to try my hand at breeding. I will need to buy them one at a time (if at all) though due to the amount being asked for them. 


I am not a fan of hybridisation at all.






John1975 said:


> I know people love morphs but any boeleni mix would be just rude in my opinion. I don’t even like carpondros tbh it pisses me off that every jungle or diamond may or may not Have a bit of blood from the other. Probably not popular with the morph guys I know. Some are undoubtedly attractive but they’re diverse unique genes that evolved over millennia that mesmerised us all enough to read Obsess build cages fork out a small fortune. Genes that evolved either side of deserts mountain ranges and seas before we’d learned to Wear trousers! All erased in a few decades for a claimed world first. I shouldn’t judge too much I know. I keep animals in boxes fir my own amusement which is fundamentally questionable really. In my opinion though, if you don’t love the purity and unique beauty of a diamond,a gtp or even bredli I don’t don’t think you love pythons. Boeleni are the holy grail. I think it’s a crime to dirty the gene. In next to no time you can’t claim species like chondros no one really can claim true localities and now they are considered true sub species. I’ve got 4 diamonds. They look like diamonds So do they’re parents they are claimed pure. No one knows if they are. It’s a shame. A 75% diamond looks like a diamond and you’d breed it a year earlier with more success. Not a diamond though. Years down the line who’s to say a hybrid wouldn’t result from something from the scrub complex. Then back to Boelens?maybe throw some white lip in for good measure. Bit if a stretch I know. Or a bredli. Not unlike boelens As Babies. Get that to 75/88 boelens and your knocking out clutches of 20+ from 3’1/2 yr old girls and we can all buy one yeah! They’re not the real deal though stick them up the mountain again and they’ll peg it. I’m fully aware these are probably too unique to cross or pass off as pure but it certainly applies to lots of other species. Even If I was wedged up I’d have enough respect for these to consider not owning one due to the low chances of my success. Not to suggest others shouldn’t.


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## John1975

Yeah think the girls are harder to come by and obviously slower to mature. There are a few males knocking about at the moment apparently I’m sure you know they were mentioned in the boeleni site. Have you been in contact with Ari or the Swedish guy? I’m sure they would be happy to talk with your reptile pedigree. If I can get some success with my diamonds a few years own the line I’d definitely consider these.I could spare a few grand if it was made from a breeding success. If I told my wife I’d consider it then my life would be difficult. I’m sure you would do as well with a pair as most. Think there are a few rich buggers with these just for “fun”. They probably also own hyacinth macaws and big cats. All the best with the search


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

To be honest, I have found keepers of this species (past and present) to be pretty open when it comes to sharing information, the issue is the price of the animals.

Likewise, best of luck with your Diamond Pythons and your quest to purchase a Boelens Python. 



John1975 said:


> Yeah think the girls are harder to come by and obviously slower to mature. There are a few males knocking about at the moment apparently I’m sure you know they were mentioned in the boeleni site. Have you been in contact with Ari or the Swedish guy? I’m sure they would be happy to talk with your reptile pedigree. If I can get some success with my diamonds a few years own the line I’d definitely consider these.I could spare a few grand if it was made from a breeding success. If I told my wife I’d consider it then my life would be difficult. I’m sure you would do as well with a pair as most. Think there are a few rich buggers with these just for “fun”. They probably also own hyacinth macaws and big cats. All the best with the search


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## mick g

Just seen some Boelens for sale on MeWe ( Kentish Reptiles and exotic pets) at 700 us dollars each free shipping from Indonesia with photos.
But you know what they say ; If it seems to good to be true .....


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## ian14

mick g said:


> Just seen some Boelens for sale on MeWe ( Kentish Reptiles and exotic pets) at 700 us dollars each free shipping from Indonesia with photos.
> But you know what they say ; If it seems to good to be true .....


Hmm.
Scam screaming out there!!


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## al stotton

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> To be honest, I have found keepers of this species (past and present) to be pretty open when it comes to sharing information, the issue is the price of the animals.
> 
> Likewise, best of luck with your Diamond Pythons and your quest to purchase a Boelens Python.


I can recall listening to an chat/interview with my old pal Robyn Markland and Chad Brown, both from Pro Exotics (past) and The Reptile Report (present) talking about all thing Boelen's. 
Very interesting and informative stuff all round , I'll try n find a link.

Having eyeballed and handled Darren @ CPR's personal specimens , several years ago, I have to admit they're stunning to behold. 

Even as a strictly colubrid guy myself , I simply cannot deny Boelen's beauty and can certainly see the appeal of these boids.


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## al stotton

ian14 said:


> Hmm.
> Scam screaming out there!!


Yep , have to agree Ian


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## loxocemus

one of the issues with breeding boeleni is 1.1 may not be enough, actually statistically its almost certainly not. there are lucky pairs that produce, well lucky females, the males are likely not the issue (though I do wish their sperm samples were checked for motility), if the same keeper added another female, ie 1.2, its highly unlikely they'll produce 2 clutches.

so if you want the best chance to actually produce a clutch u would need the standard for any new species ie 2.3 (some use 2.5 or 3.5 when purchasing oddities from importers)

2 males in case one god forbid dies and 3 females in the hope one ovulates, it would also be interesting to figure out why the other females didn't ovulate under identical conditions, that would lean towards golden females, which I truly hope isn't a thing.

could group breeding encourage ovulation in females that otherwise wouldn't. would females in the presence of combating males begin the hormonal process that eventually leads to ovulation.

if you had 3 females all three could be kept under variations of cycling, I think diamonds are a Good starting point, brumation isn't, though it proved their toleration of low temps. 

there was a pair in a bushmaster facility that produced and that area was not that cool, so there must have been another stimulant, they were kept very naturally. BUT Stan chiras built a 12ft long natural cage, planted, with hot spots and artificial burrows etc and he consistently got nothing (though they consistently copulated, was the male firing blanks, the female didn't ovulate either way).

nerd has a few, he's trying in racks in a tropical room.

is a rainy season a stimulant, is less rain a stimulant, is their preys breeding season a stimulant, their prey is a possum like animal. their altitude in a tropical climate is unusual in most areas of the world, for example cloud forests evolve specialist species, abronia do very well outside and will reproduce in mesh caging in areas where the climate is suitable.

is barometric pressure key, it is in many species for copulation, especially boids, a storm front will produce many locks in a ball python collection and other species collections, though copulation is not a problem for boeleni, it may have other effects in females.

boelens live in burrows to rest when not hunting or basking and taking that heat back with them, can they shunt warm blood like diamonds, I think its a given when incubating but is it part of day to day life, with life at altitude and your jet Black. 

does a captive adult boelens resemble a wild adult boelens in rgds to body fat percentage, captivity means being well fed, are heavy captive female boelens being biologically supressed from ovulating, do they need the same regime as diamonds where less is more.

caging for boelens would need designed around how many stimulants you want to use, ideally in their own room without other boids or tropicals. boelens get very large and strong, so caging would be 8ft per animal, this would allow a burrow at one end and a "sun" at the other, 2ft wide is for corns, boeleni would be 3-4ft deep, a spray system with very very fine heated mist would be ideal, a soil floor would necessitate a pvc lined cage (the humidity would anyway). I think subfloor drawers could be an important part of boeleni caging.

this part is iffy, are captive boeleni taking advantage of heat they have evolved not to have, a cold blooded snake (non brumater) will keep taking advantage of heat as long as you supply it, so when boeleni are cycled and your providing hot spots of XXoc are you suppressing sperm production and follicle development, or do they need a minimum of X heat hours to ensure biological processes succeed.

checking sperm motility and using an ultrasound to check on follicular growth during breeding trials would be a huge benefit to anyone considering boeleni, u can get cheap ultrasound machines these days.

lastly what effects are the "cf quotas" having on the wild populations, we don't know the reproductive rates of wild adults, how many times they reproduce or the return rate of juveniles from lower elevations, lastly there's no count of adults that exist in the wild, and we do know that "cf" is routinely abused in other species, especially in very high value animals, so ethically there's questions to be asked.

rgds
ed


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

I absolutely think that having multiple males and females would increase your chances of a successful mating - if nothing else the law of averages is increased.

Not wishing to blow my own trumpet, but I think I could give it a good go in terms of breeding as I have a good understanding of what may be required in terms of 'pushing the limits' where others may be too cautious. The issue of course is I am not blessed with huge resources of cash so getting one let alone a group may prove difficult. 

I often think animals are kept too comfortable in captivity, so much so that the desire to breed is reduced. I use a term called: Optimum Neglect when it comes to keeping which basically means I don't 'mollycoddle' them - no static temperatures, no set feeding regime and proper brumation if needs be. 



loxocemus said:


> one of the issues with breeding boeleni is 1.1 may not be enough, actually statistically its almost certainly not. there are lucky pairs that produce, well lucky females, the males are likely not the issue (though I do wish their sperm samples were checked for motility), if the same keeper added another female, ie 1.2, its highly unlikely they'll produce 2 clutches.
> 
> so if you want the best chance to actually produce a clutch u would need the standard for any new species ie 2.3 (some use 2.5 or 3.5 when purchasing oddities from importers)
> 
> 2 males in case one god forbid dies and 3 females in the hope one ovulates, it would also be interesting to figure out why the other females didn't ovulate under identical conditions, that would lean towards golden females, which I truly hope isn't a thing.
> 
> could group breeding encourage ovulation in females that otherwise wouldn't. would females in the presence of combating males begin the hormonal process that eventually leads to ovulation.
> 
> if you had 3 females all three could be kept under variations of cycling, I think diamonds are a Good starting point, brumation isn't, though it proved their toleration of low temps.
> 
> there was a pair in a bushmaster facility that produced and that area was not that cool, so there must have been another stimulant, they were kept very naturally. BUT Stan chiras built a 12ft long natural cage, planted, with hot spots and artificial burrows etc and he consistently got nothing (though they consistently copulated, was the male firing blanks, the female didn't ovulate either way).
> 
> nerd has a few, he's trying in racks in a tropical room.
> 
> is a rainy season a stimulant, is less rain a stimulant, is their preys breeding season a stimulant, their prey is a possum like animal. their altitude in a tropical climate is unusual in most areas of the world, for example cloud forests evolve specialist species, abronia do very well outside and will reproduce in mesh caging in areas where the climate is suitable.
> 
> is barometric pressure key, it is in many species for copulation, especially boids, a storm front will produce many locks in a ball python collection and other species collections, though copulation is not a problem for boeleni, it may have other effects in females.
> 
> boelens live in burrows to rest when not hunting or basking and taking that heat back with them, can they shunt warm blood like diamonds, I think its a given when incubating but is it part of day to day life, with life at altitude and your jet Black.
> 
> does a captive adult boelens resemble a wild adult boelens in rgds to body fat percentage, captivity means being well fed, are heavy captive female boelens being biologically supressed from ovulating, do they need the same regime as diamonds where less is more.
> 
> caging for boelens would need designed around how many stimulants you want to use, ideally in their own room without other boids or tropicals. boelens get very large and strong, so caging would be 8ft per animal, this would allow a burrow at one end and a "sun" at the other, 2ft wide is for corns, boeleni would be 3-4ft deep, a spray system with very very fine heated mist would be ideal, a soil floor would necessitate a pvc lined cage (the humidity would anyway). I think subfloor drawers could be an important part of boeleni caging.
> 
> this part is iffy, are captive boeleni taking advantage of heat they have evolved not to have, a cold blooded snake (non brumater) will keep taking advantage of heat as long as you supply it, so when boeleni are cycled and your providing hot spots of XXoc are you suppressing sperm production and follicle development, or do they need a minimum of X heat hours to ensure biological processes succeed.
> 
> checking sperm motility and using an ultrasound to check on follicular growth during breeding trials would be a huge benefit to anyone considering boeleni, u can get cheap ultrasound machines these days.
> 
> lastly what effects are the "cf quotas" having on the wild populations, we don't know the reproductive rates of wild adults, how many times they reproduce or the return rate of juveniles from lower elevations, lastly there's no count of adults that exist in the wild, and we do know that "cf" is routinely abused in other species, especially in very high value animals, so ethically there's questions to be asked.
> 
> rgds
> ed


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## loxocemus

id also advocate for keeping all animals singly, there's a term, "captive stagnation" its basically after an extended period together pairs don't see each other as sexual mates but rather just as cage mates, boid marriage in effect :2thumb:

one of those new digital stats that allow multiple programs per day would be ideal, bright leds that dim on the same schedule to imitate cloud cover would be an interesting touch. uv obviously in conjunction with the heat, dhp's would be ideal but their too weak, a grouping of them would be an interesting experiment.

of course a branching system under the heat would be nice, but a shelf would realistically provide a better surface for such large sized snake/s, but of course if the right bit of driftwood came along.....

subfloor drawers are too useful not to use, they would need to be big enough for 16ft of curled boeleni, they could be heated or not, dry or not, possibly another seasonal point to manipulate.

an anole breeder in Florida reports drastically improved behaviours Inc breeding when he switched from day misting to night misting (kept outside), this is something to play with I'd say. a good fine misting system would be a worthy addition.

so why does a female reabsorb in the best case early scenario, how much does behavioural stimuli effect hormonal production, in ball pythons follicles will grow just in response to a males presence, up to certain size they can be reabsorbed, after it will lead to ovulation. so let's continue the comparison, female boeleni are not receiving the right stimulus early on in the process, my first attempt would be at a temp differential between night and day, more extreme than the daily maintenance differential they are kept under for the rest of the season.

unless a species is aseasonal there is always a seasonal event that triggers systemic reproductive changes, but due to the boelens habitat how their kept for the rest of the year may also be important, again diamonds come to mind, they can't be kept like a corn for 9mths and then cycled the other three and routinely expect eggs.

how much food and how often could be used to prep animals for the upcoming reproductive season, food availability is key to reproduction, hatchlings need to eat an appropriate sized prey, this prey may depend on insects, insects depends vegetation, vegetation depends on rain, this of course is the duty of mother nature not the incubating female, but there is a sequence that has to occur for a species to be successful, somewhere in this sequence is the boelens trigger.

I think a good first step to boelens is understanding diamonds, from a breeder who has had regular fertile success with them, diamonds have evolved to be the hardiest carpet and still reproduce despite this hardship, very like insular dwarf retics. the triggers that start a female diamond may be the trigger that starts a female boeleni, maybe not the key to the entire lock but they could push those follicles along.

I think male combat would be worthy if its purely a feat of strength rather than teeth, in the presence of the female im unsure, space and avoidance would be key in such an experiment, plus a keeper watching with a hook. of course in nature females would not be in such close proximity to the combat so it may not be safe or practical, but a charged up male boeleni winner is a much better introduction to the females cage than a male you've just woke up. again, behavioural vs reproductive status.

I, like Fraser would like to delve into boelens, £12000 a pair something like that, £30,000 for a decent group. so the average keeper can maybe stretch to a pair, for 12 grand you could have a golden female or very very expensive pets, as much as I like them I don't want £12,000 pets, id rather get couperi and diamonds for a fraction of the price and their equally stunning and fun work in different ways.

so again ethics and morality raise their ugly head, should the cf quotas be supported when you know there's a good chance u will not pay it back to help reduce their farming in the long run. 

rgds
ed


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## LiasisUK

I have a few thoughts on boelens breeding

It's also very likely to do with age; a lot of SE Asian and Australian pythons take much longer to reach sexual maturity than species like Royals. You're looking at 5 years minimum, the only recorded breedings of Apodora papuana (another rainforest python species from Papua), of which there is only approx 5 succesful breedings, the females were on average 10 years old. 

Then you have the added fact that they live at higher altitudes at cooler temperatures and therefore run at an even lower rate/metabolism. 

THEN you have the added issue that the majority of them are WC whilst being generally not overly aggressive, you get complacent thinking the animal is stress free and comfortable whereas it is not. Many wild caught snakes take many years to truly feel comfortable in captivity, with snappy species they show this lack of comfort by being aggressive and flighty. Not all species are like this, their stress response is much more unclear. The animal then gets moved around, 'this setup isn't working, they aren't breeding' and its changed multiple times so they never settle and then don't breed.

It is in my opinion that many people give up even before there is even any chance of them breeding.


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## loxocemus

absolutely age would be key, 5yrs+ for females. trying with wild adult females would I think be the very very hardest route. most boeleni are offered as cf juveniles or animals raised from such stock. I think the keepers local climate will also have a huge influence on ur chances of getting eggs.

you're also faced with a difficult choice once their adult, stick with method A season after season hoping reproductive maturity kicks in OR tweak season after season hoping ur getting closer to the magic set of data that gets u eggs, but you could be straying further and further away if method A is indeed the key.

rgds
Ed



LiasisUK said:


> I have a few thoughts on boelens breeding
> 
> It's also very likely to do with age; a lot of SE Asian and Australian pythons take much longer to reach sexual maturity than species like Royals. You're looking at 5 years minimum, the only recorded breedings of Apodora papuana (another rainforest python species from Papua), of which there is only approx 5 succesful breedings, the females were on average 10 years old.
> 
> Then you have the added fact that they live at higher altitudes at cooler temperatures and therefore run at an even lower rate/metabolism.
> 
> THEN you have the added issue that the majority of them are WC whilst being generally not overly aggressive, you get complacent thinking the animal is stress free and comfortable whereas it is not. Many wild caught snakes take many years to truly feel comfortable in captivity, with snappy species they show this lack of comfort by being aggressive and flighty. Not all species are like this, their stress response is much more unclear. The animal then gets moved around, 'this setup isn't working, they aren't breeding' and its changed multiple times so they never settle and then don't breed.
> 
> It is in my opinion that many people give up even before there is even any chance of them breeding.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

I think this statement is so true. People with large sums of money invested in a project don't have the necessary time to allow animals to acclimatise properly and are moved on, this process must then begin again. 



LiasisUK said:


> It is in my opinion that many people give up even before there is even any chance of them breeding.


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## LiasisUK

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I think this statement is so true. People with large sums of money invested in a project don't have the necessary time to allow animals to acclimatise properly and are moved on, this process must then begin again.


100%, with highly strung species it can take a year or more for an animal to be 'acclimated'. 

Patience is key with reptile breeding, well "macro" patience. 
I can wait 8 years for an animal to breed (macro), but I can't wait 60 days for eggs to hatch (micro) haha

I would love to try my hand at breeding them, but I don't wish to invest haha. Can get other things for that kind of money. Maybe someone will give me some one day or something....


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Get in line!!! :whistling2:



LiasisUK said:


> Maybe someone will give me some one day or something....


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## LiasisUK

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Get in line!!! :whistling2:


:lol2: I'll gift you a baby Fraser


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## Zincubus

Why are these so expensive ??

Serious question but being funny 

Is it simply down to rarity ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## danl

Zincubus said:


> Why are these so expensive ??
> 
> Serious question but being funny
> 
> Is it simply down to rarity ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


They are stunningly beautiful, rare and cb stock is extremely limited if at all most years.
I would dearly love to try my hand with them but my snake budget goes elsewhere, maybe next year I might see if it's possible 🙃


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## Serpent.Obsessed

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I am hoping for a decent year in terms of production so would like to realise a lifelong dream of owning a Boelens Python: _S. boeleni_
> 
> 
> I appreciate the restrictions both in terms of breeding, importation and my own budget but I was wondering if anyone has any leads on availability - sex is unimportant?


Crystal Palace published one today, 2014 female i think, they want 12.5k


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## Jibbajabba

Expensive. Less than I expected but still pricey.


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## frogeyed

Jibbajabba said:


> Expensive. Less than I expected but still pricey.


Next project for you ??


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## Jibbajabba

Nope. I am done.  Ten years ago maybe. But now that sort of cost is a year of university for my son


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## Swindinian

CPR getting in Boeleni June 2022?


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

£5000 - 6000 each!!


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## Swindinian

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> £5000 - 6000 each!!


I’ll chip in £100 if you promise to send me photo updates regularly. Can’t say fairer than that 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Thank you - just need another 60 folk to do the same. 



Swindinian said:


> I’ll chip in £100 if you promise to send me photo updates regularly. Can’t say fairer than that 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## Swindinian

But Fraser, that only buys 1 animal?

You know I think you should get at least 2.2 if not 3.3 🤦🏻


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Ideally I would like 2.2 but that is £20,000 - 24,000 who has that crazy amount of money?


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## Swindinian

You need to get friendly with someone in financial sector, maybe an energy sector bidder!


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Know anyone?



Swindinian said:


> You need to get friendly with someone in financial sector, maybe an energy sector bidder!


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## Swindinian

Alas no I don’t, otherwise I could pitch it as an investment project 🤭


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## ian14

I would also question their heritage. 
This is a species that has proven nigh on impossible to breed in captivity. Let's be honest, how often have you seen a private keeper offering hatchlings that they have bred? I'm not aware of any.
Yet every year, at this time of year, places such as Crystal Palace suddenly have hatchlings supposedly captive bred in Indonesia. 
Where they are naturally found.
At the time of year that eggs start to hatch.
So are these really CB? Or, as I suspect, more likely to be grabbed from wild clutches and sold as CB?
I would be VERY wary of buying so called CB or CF hatchlings of any species known to be almost never bred in captivity, when being sold from the country that that species comes from.


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## Swindinian

Captive farmed from Indonesia? (near sea level perhaps), but is it not from cloud mountainous forests in Papua New Guinea?


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## Swindinian

I don’t even know which part they come from. West Papua and Papua New Guinea? 
But only legal from Indonesian West Papua side?


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## Swindinian

CITES paper


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## Swindinian

https://cites.org/sites/default/files/eng/com/ac/28/Inf/E-AC28-Inf-05.pdf


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## ian14

Swindinian said:


> Captive farmed from Indonesia? (near sea level perhaps), but is it not from cloud mountainous forests in Papua New Guinea?


According to CPR, captive bred in Indonesia. 
All very sus, quite frankly.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

The honest answer is I don't know as I wasn't physically there in Indonesia but if these animals are from such dubious origins - why have UK CUSTOMS not confiscated the animals? It isn't as if these have been sold on the 'down low' they are being advertised in full view. 

Also, I would rather these animals go to someone who would put in the effort to try and breed them rather than just a trophy animal for some wealthy keeper who may not have the desired experience. 

I know of 3/4 breeders in Europe although none have bred with anything that could be called consistent. 



ian14 said:


> I would also question their heritage.
> This is a species that has proven nigh on impossible to breed in captivity. Let's be honest, how often have you seen a private keeper offering hatchlings that they have bred? I'm not aware of any.
> Yet every year, at this time of year, places such as Crystal Palace suddenly have hatchlings supposedly captive bred in Indonesia.
> Where they are naturally found.
> At the time of year that eggs start to hatch.
> So are these really CB? Or, as I suspect, more likely to be grabbed from wild clutches and sold as CB?
> I would be VERY wary of buying so called CB or CF hatchlings of any species known to be almost never bred in captivity, when being sold from the country that that species comes from.


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## LiasisUK

I believe in order to be exported they have to be F2 CB, and this has to be proven to Indo authorities.... though of course maybe they can get round this, who's to say.


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## Swindinian

I heard they are 8K…… perhaps it depends on who you speak to……


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## LiasisUK

Swindinian said:


> I heard they are 8K…… perhaps it depends on who you speak to……


Yes as with a lot of the hobby, it's very much who you know.


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## Thrasops

Have you spoken to Ari Flagle, Fraser? He literally wrote the book on them and spoke at the US AHH conference in 2019. Could be worth networking with him if you have not already?


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Yes, I have spoken to Ari several times about his methods and theories - this networking with him and other keepers, breeders, experienced reptile keepers in general and individuals that have lived in Indonesia have helped shape my thinking on how I would keep this species should I ever be lucky enough to have the opportunity to keep them.



Thrasops said:


> Have you spoken to Ari Flagle, Fraser? He literally wrote the book on them and spoke at the US AHH conference in 2019. Could be worth networking with him if you have not already?


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## loxocemus

.


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## Malc

loxocemus said:


> .


This is the 3rd thread where all you posted was a full stop, what's the reason... if you just want to bump it back up the list then just type "bump" ??


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## Swindinian

I think Ed commented, then deleted the comment?


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## loxocemus

i did just that, i felt my comments overly harsh, no not harsh, they wouldn't have been well received in my honesty by those who care for the species.

rgds
ed



Swindinian said:


> I think Ed commented, then deleted the comment?


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## BenG

Looking forward to getting mine, been trying for around four years and missed out a few times, really tough getting them and near impossible to get a CB in Europe. It is a shame they have jumped up in price so much. I know quite a few keepers of Boelens in the UK, it is quite welcoming that we have a new genetic pool coming in. It would be a different case if there were hundreds coming in but there isn't. I have been tracking imports into Europe and UK to see if I could get a pair and it has not been fruitful.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

So you are one of the lucky few to have purchased a pair from this shipment?

I am not jealous at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



BenG said:


> Looking forward to getting mine, been trying for around four years and missed out a few times, really tough getting them and near impossible to get a CB in Europe. It is a shame they have jumped up in price so much. I know quite a few keepers of Boelens in the UK, it is quite welcoming that we have a new genetic pool coming in. It would be a different case if there were hundreds coming in but there isn't. I have been tracking imports into Europe and UK to see if I could get a pair and it has not been fruitful.


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## BenG

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> So you are one of the lucky few to have purchased a pair from this shipment?
> 
> I am not jealous at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I am Fraser, they were meant to come in March-time. Been chasing Dean and Darren for months on progress, it has not been easy for them. It was a large shipment of different species and you never know what was going to turn-up. Really pleased and pick up this weekend.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Excellent, really hope they do well for you. 

Remember pictures or it didn't happen!!


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## LiasisUK

Very cool Ben, congrats. Wish you success with them.


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## BenG

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Excellent, really hope they do well for you.
> 
> Remember pictures or it didn't happen!!


OMG they are so bloody nice…


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## Swindinian

A beautiful montane scrub 🥰🥰🥰🥰


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## arwen_7

Oh my those eyes 😍✨


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

BenG said:


> OMG they are so bloody nice…
> View attachment 365235
> 
> View attachment 365234



Did you get a pair?


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## BenG

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Did you get a pair?


I did yes. Just letting them settle in a bit at the moment, will do a wee video in them at the weekend.


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