# castration in staffies



## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

Right, in about 4/5 months (hopefully will be able to be in the position) to castrate my staffie, he is three years old august 27th.

I decided to leave him and wait so he can grow to his full potential and i feel he is now at this stage. I have also come to the end of my tether with how boisterous he is, and well insane! He will calm down after about five minuets but i have to send him to his bed and make him lie down (easier said than done some times)

What exactly will castrating him do to calm him down, ive always struggled to work out if it will, if its worth it. He is an only dog, and does not get along with other dogs what so ever...will this change? also i would like to read up on it a bit as worried about complications. My dog is my life and i cant bear to put him through loosing his bits, but christ i cant take it any more :lol2:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

All neutering will do is help lower testosterone levels. It wont make him any less boisterous unless he's being boisterous because of his hormones.

I'd get him neutered AND booked into a good training class : victory:


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> All neutering will do is help lower testosterone levels. It wont make him any less boisterous unless he's being boisterous because of his hormones.
> 
> I'd get him neutered AND booked into a good training class : victory:


this is the plan i have :lol2:

ive come to the conclusion its my fault hes the way he is with other dogs, as i dont like other peoples dogs... atall so i need to get over my stupid issue and he does too :lol2:

got the vets this month anywho with boosters so will ask some questions there.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

I think in this case, in terms of behaviour, training classes or a behaviourist are going to come in much more useful than the neutering. However well done for neutering for health reasons alone.

The reason I say this is because people do seem to notice less of a behavioural change the later the dog is neutered. As he has been left until he is 3, i'm going to say I don't think his behaviour will change much in the longrun. As Lisa said it will reduce hormone levels, namely testosterone, but when a dog is usually affected because of high hormone levels, more often than not it results in domineering dog. And you haven't mentioned that as one of his traits that you want to eliminate.

I think a lot of the things you have mentioned are just related to the breed. I own a staffy myself. It is so important that they receive the correct socialization with other dogs and people while still young. Will it change now? Yes, if you put the work in I am a strong believer in you can teach an old dog new tricks.

Don't feel bad about putting him through the op, though!! It is the best decision you could have made. The pros far outweigh the cons and it is a very low risk, non-invasive surgery.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Neutering is very unlikely to alter his behaviour at all. In fact, it often doesn't alter those behaviours that people attribute to being entire, such as humping and scent marking, as these are also largely behavioural/training problems. 

Your dog doesn't care less about losing his balls, he'll not notice any difference, so don't worry about that. If you've decided to neuter, his age is a good age to do so, as he is fully adult. 

As has been said, training classes are the way to go.


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

well the plan has always been to "do" him, but was going to wait till he is five as can take up to five years to grow, but he isnt gaining any more height, or muscle tone.

Cany any one recommend what type of classes i should be looking for? i dont think puppy classes will be the one :S


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

What I would do is go to the APDT website and contact a trainer on there that's local to you and only uses positive methods. Avoid anyone who uses rank reduction methods as these can be very damaging, especially to sensitive breeds like staffies. 

http://www.apdt.co.uk


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## RACR (Aug 20, 2009)

Nebbz said:


> well the plan has always been to "do" him, but was going to wait till he is five as can take up to five years to grow, but he isnt gaining any more height, or muscle tone.
> 
> Cany any one recommend what type of classes i should be looking for? i dont think puppy classes will be the one :S


A staffie takes 3 ears to reach being fully grown  The 1st year is normaly height alone though can be less, you can tell by the growth plates on there front legs if there height is complete. Normaly the second and 3rd year is filling out, muscle growth and then fine tuning as to say.

His behaviour can be corrected easy enough with the right training and persistance 

Staffies are a boistress and hyper breed, will want to jump up visitors for fusses as they love people.

I love staffies :2thumb:

ETA, rank reduction methods? is that pack leader dog physcology training? I actualt find it a very good method if done properly and use a very good one for my rescue where i focus on rescuing staffies


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

In my experience, not liking other dogs is a strange one. 
Rio doesn't like other dogs at all but has met a friends dogs and was fine with them. He was teeth out and snarling for about ten minutes and then settled down. 
When i got Wils i took him with me to see how he'd react, he didn't even bark at her and was off the lead on under a minute.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

oh and having his nuts off didn't do a lot, just stopped him marking his territory on the edge of the sofa.. I felt so bad having it done i cooked him a full steak dinner with all the trimmings.


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

Staffies are sometimes outgoing dogs.
You either get the ones that are really laid back, that you see people walking offlead to heal.
Or you get the in yer face ones who are just like tigger..lol and want to share there joy with everyone.

Training wont change that, it can help in some ways, but you will never take the Staffie out of the Staffie, doG knows I've tried with my trainer.lol

And I dont want to turn this into a neutering debate, so I shant say anything on the matter.

As for him disliking other dogs, that can also be a Staffie trait, quite a few do sometimes prefer humans to other dogs.

If he isnt keen on other dogs you wont be able to take him to normal training lessons. You will probably have to find a trainer who will see you either in a very small group or one to one depending on his level of not liking other dogs.

If you are worried about him being neutered you can always get a blood test done before hand to make sure he is fit and healthy.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

It is important to understand the difference between a trainer and a behaviourist, though. A trainer will work on improving the dog and teaching it a command to learn to obey. A behaviourist will try to work out _why_ a dog is behaving in such a way, then put a plan of action in place to correct the behaviour.

Staffies are a breed that need full-on socialization in puppyhood. I have seen many that don't like other dogs, it's not that unusual in this breed.

Although staffies do generally finish growing at 3 years old fully (generally after a year nothing more is noticeable, but growing is still taking place) it is perfectly safe to neuter from around 6 months old. I wouldn't recommend quite that early with this breed, but it won't stunt growth like you may have heard.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

mattm said:


> It is important to understand the difference between a trainer and a behaviourist, though. A trainer will work on improving the dog and teaching it a command to learn to obey. A behaviourist will try to work out _why_ a dog is behaving in such a way, then put a plan of action in place to correct the behaviour.
> 
> Staffies are a breed that need full-on socialization in puppyhood. I have seen many that don't like other dogs, it's not that unusual in this breed.
> 
> Although staffies do generally finish growing at 3 years old fully (generally after a year nothing more is noticeable, but growing is still taking place) it is perfectly safe to neuter from around 6 months old. I wouldn't recommend quite that early with this breed, but it won't stunt growth like you may have heard.


Training and behaviour go hand in hand. You can't really properly train a dog without some understanding of behaviour or what motivates the dog. That said, it doesn't really matter if you know _why_ a dog is behaving in a certain way, (and at the end of the day, we won't really ever know) just that we know how to train the dog out of that behaviour. 

As for early neutering. No, it won't stunt growth. In fact, it has the opposite effect,, an dearly neutering leads to taller, leggier/gangly animals, as the 'sex hormones' dictate growth plate closure, so if they are reduced the growth plates do not close when they should. This can also have an effect on hips, other joints and ligaments.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

I can't help thinking that they've got the ability and urge to have sex but can't satisfy it. That would drive me mad lol.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

LiamRatSnake said:


> I can't help thinking that they've got the ability and urge to have sex but can't satisfy it. That would drive me mad lol.


Most entire dogs never get to mate anyway. In neutered dogs the ability to produce testosterone is mostly removed, so the urg eis less. Which do you think is worse?


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

midori said:


> Most entire dogs never get to mate anyway. In neutered dogs the ability to produce testosterone is mostly removed, so the urg eis less. Which do you think is worse?


Having no urge. I'd rather that then be gagging for it all the time and not be able to do a thing about it. I would always have a dog neutered/spayed anyway.
PS That's what I meant in my post anyway.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

Castration.

they don't miss them or know do they not.
want to come tell my Dweezil that?

He was getting beyond the Joke and was not being a nice calm stud dog. or even half way calm like his dad. No Dweezil had one thing and one thing alone on his mind. and when I had 3 bitches in season at the same time, and he wasn't having any of them he became a total t**t b*****d.
So I screamed at him one day after he'd slammed me against the door to get past me. 
'YOUR HAVING YOUR BALLS OFF SO GET SAYING YOUR BYES BYES!!!'
He instantly started doing his whinging mouthing and licking his balls.
(any one who saw this could clearly see he knew exactly what I had said)

Day he came to have them off. I went to go get his lead on and he went mental, bolted off at top speed up the garden and hid behind the cattery block and refused to coem out. With me telling him, If he'd wanted to keep them, maybe he should have behaved.

Finally dragged him out and into the kittchen, please bare in mind, he is bigger than I am. Shut the dog gate in the back porch and still had hold of his harness. He turned, jumped the gate with my arm still attached. 
I hit the floor cause wellies on solid tiles don't work at all when wet! lol

Hubby finally finished on the loo (men!). Grabbed Dweezil, told me off because I had been the one to keep telling him he was losing his balls and that he'd take him for 'a walk'.

He came back later on, groggy and yet kissy with Ste. Took one look at me, looked at his now empty ball sack. And went and curled up in his bed.

S, Some dogs do know!


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## mariekni (Apr 8, 2009)

we got our staffy snipped and he was worst it was almost like he turned into a puppy again!!


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

Pimperella said:


> Castration.
> 
> they don't miss them or know do they not.
> want to come tell my Dweezil that?
> ...


I'm glad you're not my Mum :/


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## etsbuddy (Aug 16, 2009)

hi, dont know if this is any help to you, but we have two dogs one of which is a staffie cross, he was very excitable, you couldnt take him for walks he would just constantly drag you along, also if anyone came to the house both dogs would constantly be jumping up. We heard of this guy who is a dog physcologist like cesar milan we gave him a ring and booked a home visit. It was fantastic it is now four days on and they are brilliant out walking they dont jump at people in the house and its like they are different dogs, heres the link for his site, i hope this helps he really is a miracle worker, mandy //www.caninepsychologycentre.co.uk/index.html


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## robstaine (May 7, 2009)

there are lots of pros of getting an animal neutered one is that they do not get testicle/uterus cancer which obviously pro longs their life. Also in alot of dogs if done early enough helps calm them down (not 'kill their spirit as some people may say/think') just makes them more manageable they do still have their personality believe it or not! :whistling2:

and no they wont miss mating they do not have the urge if neutered and it really annoys me when people say they will let their dogs mate once before neutering them so they can 'experience' it, what they dont think of is the bitch will have 6-12 pups which will all have pups if un-neutered and their pups will have pups.. makes you think dont it??? look how many dogs are in shelters due to people being irresponsible.


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## vetdebbie (Jan 4, 2008)

My experience is that neutering later in life (ie after behaviour patterns have been established) makes very little difference at all to their behaviour. If you want to see what the effects of castration will be, you can ask for an implant called suprelorin, which is an anti-testosterone implant and effectively is a "chemical castrate". Totally reversible, lasts about 6 months, should cost in the region of £40. (I've heard of vets charging more for it but if they do you are majorly being ripped off). If it helps the behaviour go for the castrate. If it doesn't, then the surgery won't either.
I don't think here is the time or place to get in to the other pros and cons of neutering.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

robstaine said:


> there are lots of pros of getting an animal neutered one is that they do not get testicle/uterus cancer which obviously pro longs their life. Also in alot of dogs if done early enough helps calm them down (not 'kill their spirit as some people may say/think') just makes them more manageable they do still have their personality believe it or not! :whistling2:
> 
> and no they wont miss mating they do not have the urge if neutered and it really annoys me when people say they will let their dogs mate once before neutering them so they can 'experience' it, what they dont think of is the bitch will have 6-12 pups which will all have pups if un-neutered and their pups will have pups.. makes you think dont it??? look how many dogs are in shelters due to people being irresponsible.


What really annoys me is that people assume that if a dog isn't neutered it therefore is going to have puppies! :bash:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

midori said:


> What really annoys me is that people assume that if a dog isn't neutered it therefore is going to have puppies! :bash:


 
That is because there are so many unwanted dogs all over the world and every rescue centre is full to bursting point. If these wern`t bred where did they come from ?
Every dog Ive ever had has been neutered with no ill effect.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Shell195 said:


> That is because there are so many unwanted dogs all over the world and every rescue centre is full to bursting point. If these wern`t bred where did they come from ?
> Every dog Ive ever had has been neutered with no ill effect.


 
Not all over the world actually. In Sweden, where neutering was actually illegal until very recently, there has never been much of a problem with unwanted dogs. Breeding is fairly strictly regulated, and their whole culture regarding dogs is very different. 

The fact is, whilst neutering physically stops pregnancies, it is responsible ownership and correct management that firstly and foremostly prevent unwanted pregnancies. The people who are responsible enough to neuter are unliklely to let their dog get pregnant even if they didn't neuter, and the people too irresponsible to consider neutering are the ones likely to let their dog get pregnant, either on purpose, or by accident. 

I could equally say every dog I have ever had has not been neutered with no ill effect. The fact is, there are pros and cons for neutering, which I accept, but it seems the 'pro brigade' conveniently forget or ignore the fact that there are negatives involved in neutering aswell.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

> Training and behaviour go hand in hand. You can't really properly train a dog without some understanding of behaviour or what motivates the dog. That said, it doesn't really matter if you know _why_ a dog is behaving in a certain way, (and at the end of the day, we won't really ever know) just that we know how to train the dog out of that behaviour.


Yes I realize that - heck I should do being a BSc hons student in animal behavioural science and welfare. But I never said they didn't go hand in hand .

midori - Animal management is part of it but neutering and spaying makes life a lot easier for the owner _and_ has added, other benefits. I actually think it is more out of order to let an entire dog have temptation in the way (presumably you don't expect entire dogs to not socialize with other dogs or be taken where other dogs are?). This alone will cause a great deal of distraction through training and it is important that you have your animals' full attention.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

mattm said:


> Yes I realize that - heck I should do being a BSc hons student in animal behavioural science and welfare. But I never said they didn't go hand in hand .
> 
> midori - Animal management is part of it but neutering and spaying makes life a lot easier for the owner _and_ has added, other benefits. I actually think it is more out of order to let an entire dog have temptation in the way (presumably you don't expect entire dogs to not socialize with other dogs or be taken where other dogs are?). This alone will cause a great deal of distraction through training and it is important that you have your animals' full attention.


 
Neutering is not a training aid, and shouldn't be used as one. What on earth is the dog world coming to when people are resorting to surgery because they do not have the skills to adequately train their dog? I have never yet seen one behaviour that was put down to the dog being entire that couldn't be cured by _training_. 

I have vast experience of entire dogs and bitches and not one of them has any behavioural problem, and they are all impeccably behaved. Of course, they all mix with other dogs, and there is never any problem.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

I never said that neutering was a training aid, either? You seem to be jumping to conclusions. If I did, please show me where.

If you had the patience to look back to my first reply, you'd notice that I had advised that people should not neuter because they are hoping for behavioural changes, but should do so because of the _proven_ health benefits.

If none of the entire dogs you have experience of have had a behavioural problem then that isn't _because_ they haven't been neutered or spayed! Also if that statement is true i'd question your position to give advice.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Tongue in cheek statement warning, but I'm not sure I've met any trainer superb enough to train a male dog out of wanting a bitch in heat. Neutering does in fact help in those cases. 

I'm very pro-_spaying_, not as hard core in the male dog department as there are pros and cons healthwise, but it's imperative to spay bitches as the health benefits alone absolutely necessitate them being spayed as young as possible (my personal view and not one I expect others to go along with). If I was to have a bitch puppy again she would be spayed well before her first season, preferably as a young puppy. There are definitely low risks of minor downsides to it, but they're downsides on a living dog rather than losing a bitch to mammary cancer, which is not a pleasant experience I can tell you.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

The fact that you said neutering 'makes life easier for the owner' with regard to behaviour and training, suggests you think it may help training, therefore, be a 'training aid'. 

'Proven Health benefits' associated with neutering a dog are far less than those associated with neutering a bitch, and in fact, may be outweighed in some cases by the negatives involved in neutering a dog, such as increased risk of prostate cancers, urinary tract cancers, bone cancers, heart cancers, increased risk of hip dysplacia etc... again, as I said the 'pro brigade' seem to forget about any possible negatives to neutering... 

And surely the fact that I know plenty of entire dogs without behavioural or training problems is a testament to the fact that it is perfectly possible to train a dog whilst it is still entire?! I don't see how you could judge on that one comment alone wether I am in a position to give advice, considering you know nothing else about me, and that comment related to one area of my experience?


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

mattm said:


> If none of the entire dogs you have experience of have had a behavioural problem then that isn't _because_ they haven't been neutered or spayed! Also if that statement is true i'd question your position to give advice.


I have a dog who, as a puppy was developing a behaviour that was managed by NOT neutering him. I don't really think that training played a part. The issue was solved by using his natural social behaviour to simply change his perceptions.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

> I have a dog who, as a puppy was developing a behaviour that was managed by NOT neutering him. I don't really think that training played a part. The issue was solved by using his natural social behaviour to simply change his perceptions.


The way in which you worded that post seems to suggest that in NOT neutering your puppy, you "managed" (i.e. dealt with) a behavioural problem. I am sorry but that just does not make sense. How do you KNOW that the "not neutering" solved the problem - it could have been a number of things, direct or indirect, environmental or an age thing. While I don't agree that neutering corrects behavioural issues or changes behaviour a great deal, I also don't agree that you can KNOW that not neutring sorted out your puppys problem. For all you know he could have ended up the same way even if you had got him done!


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

> And surely the fact that I know plenty of entire dogs without behavioural or training problems is a testament to the fact that it is perfectly possible to train a dog whilst it is still entire?!


Lol. I am beggining to think I am speaking in an unknown foreign language.

I never said "it is impossible to train a dog whilst still entire" and furthermore, I have said I don't agree with neutering with the hope of any behavioural changes. When I said that dogs are easier to manage once neutered, I did NOT mean from a training point of view - I meant from a practicality point of view, as KathyM said it is quite difficult to prevent a dog wanting to mate, which is a natural behaviour (possible through physical restraint, though. But why put a dog through that!). I personally do not rely on physical restraint for my dogs, I use verbal commands, voice tone and body language.

I also know many dogs, entire and not entire, dogs and bitches. I can't say there is a bias towards neutered and spayed animals being "better behaved" or easier to train - but there definitely is a bias towards better health for neutered and spayed dogs, which is what I have been saying all along.

If your dog isn't going to use it, lose it. And if your dog is going to use it, it better be a bloody good dog and you better be a good breeder!


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

mattm said:


> The way in which you worded that post seems to suggest that in NOT neutering your puppy, you "managed" (i.e. dealt with) a behavioural problem. I am sorry but that just does not make sense. How do you KNOW that the "not neutering" solved the problem - it could have been a number of things, direct or indirect, environmental or an age thing. While I don't agree that neutering corrects behavioural issues or changes behaviour a great deal, I also don't agree that you can KNOW that not neutring sorted out your puppys problem. For all you know he could have ended up the same way even if you had got him done!


I shall rephrase the statement - I believe that not neutering him sorted the issue. 
My 9 year old collie was born and reared in a house with a pack of huskies. He was socialised in training classes, and with my own dogs and friends dogs from day one. I got him at 8 weeks old. He was training for competitive work. 
During his formative months he began to view other dogs as moving targets for stalking. He got pleasure from simply staring (as collies do) which is difficult to correct when the dog is lying quietly not actually doing anything. When free running he would focus on another dog (mine or one I was walking with). A friend of mine had a couple of bitches who were not spayed, he met one of them when she wasn't long out of season and from that day - yes it was that sudden - all his early development came together and he became fantastic at interacting with other dogs (male or female). If I had felt the need to have him castrated I would have happily done so when he was 3 years old or more, but I feel that he needed to learn to interact with dogs properly first. I ackowledge that this might have happened had he been castrated but at the end of the day it was his sexual impulses that changed his ideas.


Now I had a similar issue many years ago with a dog brought up under similar circumstances. He was castrated at 6 months and never showed any interest in dogs other than as moving objects to stare at or stalk.
He was well trained enough for it not to be an issue and he did a lot of winning in obedience competitions, but he missed out on enjoying being a dog aound other dogs - he adored me and it was a wonderful relationship but he just didn't like other dogs. I feel that the dog I have now has a better life.

I have another entire male collie who is 3 and a half years old and a seven year old spayed heeler bitch. No problems whatsoever.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

mattm said:


> Lol. I am beggining to think I am speaking in an unknown foreign language.
> 
> I never said "it is impossible to train a dog whilst still entire" and furthermore, I have said I don't agree with neutering with the hope of any behavioural changes. When I said that dogs are easier to manage once neutered, I did NOT mean from a training point of view - I meant from a practicality point of view, as KathyM said it is quite difficult to prevent a dog wanting to mate, which is a natural behaviour (possible through physical restraint, though. But why put a dog through that!). I personally do not rely on physical restraint for my dogs, I use verbal commands, voice tone and body language.
> 
> ...


Lets face it, whilst neutering goes along way to help, it doesn't stop all dogs wanting to mate. Also, testosterone is naturally lowered in animals that are not given the chance to mate. 

And I never mentioned physically restraining dogs at all. It is perfectly posible to train a dog to 'leave' an in season bitch. If it wasn't there would be pandemonium at dog shows when idiots insist on taking in season bitches and entire dogs are all over the place on nothing but slip leads. Very hard to physically restrain a dog wearing one of those. 

As for health benefits associated for neutering, in dogs (as opposed to bitches) these are far fewer and actually the negatives include an increased risk of prostate cancer, heart cancer, bone cancer, urinary tract cancer and hip dysplacia and other orthapedic problesm, especially if done early.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Having seen the result of a bullmastiff knocking two interior doors down (clear off the hinges) to get at a bitch in season, I am somewhat dubious as to claims of complete control over entire males around bitches in season (although to be fair I'm dubious of any claims of complete control over dogs in any circumstance, neutered or not lol). Whether it is your preference to neuter or not (and I'm not really bothered either way) I do think it's fair to say that a dog after a bitch in heat is not easily called off lol. I struggle with the male neutering argument because I agree quite strongly with aspects from both sides, but I would say when it comes to the bitch in season arguments, neutering wins. There are plenty of other arguments in this debate where not neutering wins, so....


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Having seen the result of a bullmastiff knocking two interior doors down (clear off the hinges) to get at a bitch in season, I am somewhat dubious as to claims of complete control over entire males around bitches in season (although to be fair I'm dubious of any claims of complete control over dogs in any circumstance, neutered or not lol). Whether it is your preference to neuter or not (and I'm not really bothered either way) I do think it's fair to say that a dog after a bitch in heat is not easily called off lol. I struggle with the male neutering argument because I agree quite strongly with aspects from both sides, but I would say when it comes to the bitch in season arguments, neutering wins. There are plenty of other arguments in this debate where not neutering wins, so....


I have to agree with what you say here; at our training class the boys do as they are told but their eyes go all popped out and all over the place if any of the girls have recently been in season and you can see the stress of it all. I tend to avoid going if I know my friends girls are due in or just out of season because I feel sorry for the boys. 
I have no strong feelings either way about neutering or not neutering, my personal atance is that my dogs will always be established in good social behaviour with other dogs before having it done. I might have a different view with a different breed though. 
Of course my girls have always been done because I have entire males.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

I would also agree with the above comments.

At the end of the day, for the average pet owner (of which there are millions) they need to be advised to neuter and spay their pets, and I am thankful that most veterinarians and leading animal professionals do advise this. We do not live in an ideal world whereby the majority of people take their pets to training classes to "teach" their entire males to leave an in season bitch (and I would be incredibly impressed if this was possible to such an extent that it would be classed reliable, in all dogs of all breeds).

I could quite happily keep entire male dogs without hassle, but I choose not to for other reasons. I would say bitches that are not suitable for breeding from should always be spayed, and dogs that are not going to sire litters should be neutered unless there are specific circumstances. 

Telling people that not getting them done or anything along those lines is OK, is not a route I will go down because I honestly think there is nothing to lose in neutering or spaying your pets, and possibly somethings to gain.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I think behaviourally it is a very mixed bag with males Matt, if you neuter a dog that has confidence issues you can end up with an unfixable and dangerous dog, so it's hard to put it in black and white.


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## Mush (Jan 20, 2008)

Harry my dog is an entire male and hes a staffy x rotty and im not having him neutered.

I think its all dependant on the dog itself.

I grew up with a lab x collie and he was a sex craved demon and my parents should have neutered him and nothing would stop him if he got the scent of a woman.

My dads ex mrs had a neutered lab but he was still highly sexed.

Harry on the other hand is a year and a half, has come into contact with bitches on heat and has no interest in them therefore i think the procedule would be unnecessary for him.

Others may disagree but i think it should be your choice. do not slate me for my decision

I also dont know if any of you guys had issues, however with my dads ex mrs lab and my old lab cross used to go mental if i was 'on' and would also burst doors down to try and hump me which was just horrible.

Sparky also took a hole out the door getting through the cat flap and thus making a dog sized hole in the door to get to the neighbors bitch


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

KathyM said:


> I think behaviourally it is a very mixed bag with males Matt, if you neuter a dog that has confidence issues you can end up with an unfixable and dangerous dog, so it's hard to put it in black and white.


I agree which is why i've not put anything in black & white. Those are just my opinions. When I said unless there are specific circumstances, that would be one of them.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I get you now


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

I have 9 dogs, soon to be 10 in 8 weeks time.
We've had 10 or more dogs for the past 10 years so it is normal to us to have that many.

We have currently. 
2 Entire NI Males. Both Stud Dogs.
2 Neutered NI Males. Dweezil who was retired from Stud, but was neutered because of his bitch lust. and yes, the neutering calmed him down a lot in that department. It seriously did. He still humps, but he isn't trying to smash his head through doors anymore. Nor does he scream or howl after in season bitches. Keano was neutered by his owners who had him at 8 weeks old. I told them that ebing a slow maturing breed that if they were to get him neutered, to let him mature first. The vet disagreed, baring in mind he had never heard of the breed, and he was neutered at 7 months old. This has had a massive effect on his growth, he has gone castrata. 
He came back to us at 3 and a half. (he'll be 6 in March). His owners had gone through IVF and had a baby. grrrr but least he came home to us.
His bone length and body shape are elongated, he's 32 inches tall and built like an irish wolfhound, when he should be far stockier in build.
I wish he hadn't have been neutered so early as it has ruined his body. We even had his bones all xrayed to make sure they weren't weaked.

1 Spayed NI Bitch. 10 in December. Retired Brood Bitch.
2 Brood NI Bitches. NOT SPAYED CAUSE THEY ARE BROOD BITCHES.
1 Springer who will be having her 3rd and last litter in 2011 and will then be spayed. 1 pup is staying, 1 to my mum, and any other pups will be Greater Manchester Police and HypoAlert Dogs.
1 neutered staffie x Collie.


I neuter or Spayed when retired from breeding as it makes life a lot easier for us.


NO DOG CAN BE TRAINED TO LEAVE A BITCH IN SEASON! IT IS NOT POSSIBLE.

WALK OUT THE ROOM AND WHATEVER YOU SAID TO STOP THEM IS NOT THERE. DO NOT BELIEVE THAT TRIPE AS IT WILL LEAD TO PUPPIES!


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

mattm said:


> I would also agree with the above comments.
> 
> At the end of the day, for the average pet owner (of which there are millions) they need to be advised to neuter and spay their pets, and I am thankful that most veterinarians and leading animal professionals do advise this. We do not live in an ideal world whereby the majority of people take their pets to training classes to "teach" their entire males to leave an in season bitch (and I would be incredibly impressed if this was possible to such an extent that it would be classed reliable, in all dogs of all breeds).
> 
> ...


You seem completely oblivious to the fact that there are some serious downsides to neutering, which may have an effect on the dogs life span. 

What I think should happen is that vets give out all the information to dog owners, positives, and negatives, and then allow them to make a sensible and informed decision. I really have a problem with the fact that people are told to neuter their dogs, only told the benefits and also made to think that that is the only sensible and responsible decision. 

I'm not saying that neutering isn't sometimes, or even _often_, the sensible option, but people should be told all the facts, not just the ones that sway them towards neutering. 




Pimperella said:


> I have 9 dogs, soon to be 10 in 8 weeks time.
> We've had 10 or more dogs for the past 10 years so it is normal to us to have that many.
> 
> We have currently.
> ...


I am not suggesting for one second that you can leave an entire dog (or a castrated dog for that matter) in a room with an in season bitch and it all be hunky dory. What I am saying is that I do not for one minute believe that in most cases a dog being entired tracts in any way from it's ability to concentrate on training. Also, that (most) entire dogs, including dogs used at stud, can be taught to behave around in season bitches. (I was talking about the 'leave' command, not meaning they would be taught to ignore the bitch, sorry if that wasn't clear). 

As for neutering early. We have a rottie round here who looks like a cross. I speak to the owner sometimes on walks/school bus stop etc. He is exceptionally tall, leggy and gangly, and has been lame on and off but the vet can't find a cause. He was neutered at six month old. He also still behaves like a puppy. 

Whilst (although I don't personally agree with it) reasons for neutering a bitch early, I just cannot understand why people neuter so early.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

I am not oblivious to the fact that there are some suspected downsides to neutering and spaying. I don't believe there is any conclusive, concrete evidence that neutering or spaying can reduce lifespan. I believe there is conclusive, concrete evidence that neutering and spaying is _overall_ benefitial. And even if there is, there is something to be said for quality of life over quantity.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

mattm said:


> I am not oblivious to the fact that there are some suspected downsides to neutering and spaying. I don't believe there is any conclusive, concrete evidence that neutering or spaying can reduce lifespan. I believe there is conclusive, concrete evidence that neutering and spaying is _overall_ benefitial. And even if there is, there is something to be said for quality of life over quantity.


 
Well, I wish the vet would have considered Keanos quality of life before cutting his balls off so early. Totally ruined his body shape and growth.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

Do you not consider yourself partially responsible for that? Veterinarians are taught to neuter where possible...they have it drummed into them. It is just as much your responsibility to look into the possible negatives as it is your vets'. You took him there for the operation, you chose the vet and you paid the money.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

mattm said:


> Do you not consider yourself partially responsible for that? Veterinarians are taught to neuter where possible...they have it drummed into them. It is just as much your responsibility to look into the possible negatives as it is your vets'. *You took him there for the* *operation, you chose the vet and you paid the money*.


 

I think you will find that she didnt

Quote Pimperella

he isn't trying to smash his head through doors anymore. Nor does he scream or howl after in season bitches. *Keano was neutered by his owners who had him at 8 weeks old. *I told them that ebing a slow maturing breed that if they were to get him neutered, to let him mature first. The vet disagreed, baring in mind he had never heard of the breed, and he was neutered at 7 months old. This has had a massive effect on his growth, he has gone castrata.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

mattm said:


> Do you not consider yourself partially responsible for that? Veterinarians are taught to neuter where possible...they have it drummed into them. It is just as much your responsibility to look into the possible negatives as it is your vets'. You took him there for the operation, you chose the vet and you paid the money.


 
NO cause as Shell Kindly pointed out. You hadn't bothered to read any of my post but what you chose to.

So no, I am in no bloody way responsible. I, me, would never have had him neutered at all.

I didn't take him. I didn't chose the vet. I didn't pay any money!

I would not have had him done.
It's idiots like yourself that are the cause of ruining some amazing dogs, giving them endless growth issues.

NEVER NEUTER A DOG UNTIL HE HAS MAUTURED IN FULL BODY. OTHERWISE HE WILL END UP DEFORMED IN BODY SHAPE AND BONES.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Of course some people would argue that in the case of bitches they would rather have a leggier bitch that's alive than a squat thing that's dead. The anti-neutering brigade can't ever make their minds up either - one minute they tell you your dog will get fat and unhealthy, the next they say they will get tall and skinny lol. I would always spay a bitch well before the 1st season, no matter the breed. Mammary cancer affects over 1 in 4 bitches spayed too late or not spayed at all. I know which I would choose. :2thumb:


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

Awe Matt. When your wrong you run to Mods? Like a give a s**t. YOUR WRONG! WHATEVER WAY YOU LOOK AT IT! 
MAYBE YOU SHOULD GO BACK TO SCHOOL AND LEARN HOW TO READ EH?


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## linda.t (Sep 28, 2007)

well i have 2 males that have not been castrated no problems with any fighting and a female that as been sprayed
only thing i will say is her owners before me had her sprayed when she was 6 months old vets advice i thing it was far to young plus now at the grand old age of 2 & 1/2 she as blander problems and my vet says it's down to her being sprayed far to young.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

linda.t said:


> well i have 2 males that have not been castrated no problems with any fighting and a female that as been sprayed
> only thing i will say is her owners before me had her sprayed when she was 6 months old vets advice i thing it was far to young plus now at the grand old age of 2 & 1/2 she as blander problems and my vet says it's down to her being sprayed far to young.


 
Yup. I would far rather wait to have a bitch spayed.

If you read up on the real facts. Those relating to the ages that bitches suffer with cancers, Pyos etc. It's all baring the very rarest cases, happen to bitches over the age of 2! to the point that virtual no bitch has ever had these issue before 12 months old.
So no bloody reason at to spay a bitch so young as it also causes something called 'Puppy Vulva' were the vulva is so tiny that the bitch has constant urine infections.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

From what I've read the true toilet problems with bitches caused by spaying is not common and doesn't affect bitches as young as yours, but older spayed bitches. I might be wrong there, but that's what I've read and what the vet told me after going to a special spaying/neutering seminar (not a "drive", a learning seminar where pros and cons were discussed). 

That said, I'd rather my bitch had some toiletary issues than died of mammary cancer, and that is FAR more likely if you don't spay young. The risk is under 0.05% if you spay before the first season, that's virtually no risk at all. If you don't spay til after the 2nd season there is absolutely no benefit at all prevention wise, which is a shame as the risk is then a WHOPPING 26%. I'd rather have Ruby here peeing all over the house than have lost her slowly to cancer. If only her old owners had done the right thing and spayed her before her first season


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

KathyM said:


> From what I've read the true toilet problems with bitches caused by spaying is not common and doesn't affect bitches as young as yours, but older spayed bitches. I might be wrong there, but that's what I've read and what the vet told me after going to a special spaying/neutering seminar (not a "drive", a learning seminar where pros and cons were discussed).
> 
> That said, I'd rather my bitch had some toiletary issues than died of mammary cancer, and that is FAR more likely if you don't spay young. The risk is under 0.05% if you spay before the first season, that's virtually no risk at all. If you don't spay til after the 2nd season there is absolutely no benefit at all prevention wise, which is a shame as the risk is then a WHOPPING 26%. I'd rather have Ruby here peeing all over the house than have lost her slowly to cancer. If only her old owners had done the right thing and spayed her before her first season


 
And just how many bitches are dumped into rescues because they are peeing all over the house?


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## linda.t (Sep 28, 2007)

Pimperella said:


> Yup. I would far rather wait to have a bitch spayed.
> 
> If you read up on the real facts. Those relating to the ages that bitches suffer with cancers, Pyos etc. It's all baring the very rarest cases, happen to bitches over the age of 2! to the point that virtual no bitch has ever had these issue before 12 months old.
> So no bloody reason at to spay a bitch so young as it also causes something called 'Puppy Vulva' were the vulva is so tiny that the bitch has constant urine infections.


if she had have been with me from a pup she would only now beening sprayed.



KathyM said:


> From what I've read the true toilet problems with bitches caused by spaying is not common and doesn't affect bitches as young as yours, but older spayed bitches. I might be wrong there, but that's what I've read and what the vet told me after going to a special spaying/neutering seminar (not a "drive", a learning seminar where pros and cons were discussed).
> 
> That said, I'd rather my bitch had some toiletary issues than died of mammary cancer, and that is FAR more likely if you don't spay young. The risk is under 0.05% if you spay before the first season, that's virtually no risk at all. If you don't spay til after the 2nd season there is absolutely no benefit at all prevention wise, which is a shame as the risk is then a WHOPPING 26%. I'd rather have Ruby here peeing all over the house than have lost her slowly to cancer. If only her old owners had done the right thing and spayed her before her first season


yes mostly is older bitches but does some times causes problems with younger ones like with my girl,i'm sorry for your loss but if i'd have had mine from a pup she would not have been sprayed till she was older.


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## Xotics_Freak (Jul 19, 2009)

my sister and her other half dint have their bitches shep x an jrt spayed until they had both had 3 season they were both over 2 years old when they were done 

As my sisters other half was a firm beiliever of letting them have atleast 3 seasons before they were spayed


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Pimperella said:


> And just how many bitches are dumped into rescues because they are peeing all over the house?


With all due respect, in rescue they have the option of getting a better home, when a dog is dead that is somewhat compromised. 

I have never had a bitch with incontinence after being spayed, I have no doubt the incidence is higher in spayed bitches, but the literature I have read suggests if you're going to spay, the sooner the better for both incontinence and mammary cancer. Bitches spayed before the first season are less likely to become incontinent than those spayed after. Bitches spayed before the 1st season have literally no risk of mammary cancer. There's no competition here for me personally, but that's just my choice. But yes I do wish her old owners had her spayed at 5 months because I'd still have her now, instead of her having got mammary cancer at the "grand old" age of 6 and having died at 7. Sorry if I can't see that as better than being incontinent, but perhaps you'd feel differently if you'd nursed her through 11 months of it. :bash:


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

KathyM said:


> With all due respect, in rescue they have the option of getting a better home, when a dog is dead that is somewhat compromised.
> 
> I have never had a bitch with incontinence after being spayed, I have no doubt the incidence is higher in spayed bitches, but the literature I have read suggests if you're going to spay, the sooner the better for both incontinence and mammary cancer. Bitches spayed before the first season are less likely to become incontinent than those spayed after. Bitches spayed before the 1st season have literally no risk of mammary cancer. There's no competition here for me personally, but that's just my choice. But yes I do wish her old owners had her spayed at 5 months because I'd still have her now, instead of her having got mammary cancer at the "grand old" age of 6 and having died at 7. Sorry if I can't see that as better than being incontinent, but perhaps you'd feel differently if you'd nursed her through 11 months of it. :bash:


And at what age did you spay your 6 yr old Cancer bitch at?
You do not say as to when you got her spayed? Or as to wether her mum suffered the same fate.
You need to put up actual facts. you can't say, I have read. I have been told. 
I read countlessly from vets, breeders and laymen, that docking didn't hurt the pups at all. However, If a pup is trod on it's tail by mum, they scream the place down, and scream when someone cuts their tails off. So because I read it didn't hurt them, I ignore the screams? No.

You need to put up proof.


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

Pimperella said:


> *NEVER NEUTER A DOG UNTIL HE HAS MAUTURED IN FULL BODY. OTHERWISE HE WILL END UP DEFORMED IN BODY SHAPE AND BONES*.


this is also stated in many books, if you look out for it!

one book i read advised to wait for five years.

This thread is quite interesting, its a tough decision to make to be fair as to whats best for him, also going by the above quote, esp with staffies as takes them a long time to be fully grown...timing it right is essential

i have decided for heath reasons alone, my entire male, will be castrated, He has never bothered a bitch in heat, nor humped any bodys legs, toys, or cushions. But for the reasons of testicle cancer and what not...bye bye balls! would rarther they are gone  providing the vet thinks he has reached his potential adult size wouldnt want to stunt him in any way : victory:

as for him being a lunatic we will be going to a dog class so long as i find one local.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Hey hey hey, hang on, I didn't even mention docking and I'm anti-docking too, that's best left for another thread or people will be all over that, ok?

The bitch that died of mammary cancer was spayed by the pound at 6. The studies show (not just say, actually scientifically show) that bitches spayed before the first season don't go on to get mammary cancer. That's scientific testing, not me just making it up lol. The same studies show that bitches spayed after the 2nd season or later in life have no benefits from being spayed, and have a huge 26% risk of developing mammary cancer in their lifetime. Here's your reference for you to read:

Rutteman, GR; Withrow, SJ; MacEwen, EG. Tumors of the mammary gland. In Withrow, SJ; MacEwen, EG (eds). Small Animal Clinical Oncology. W.B. Saunders Co. Philadelphia, PA; 2001 455-477.

Ruby came to me after being BYB repeatedly. Within 3 weeks we noticed a tiny pea sized lump in one of her boobs - by that point it was already terminal as it had spread to her lungs. It went on to spread to her brain. That's how quick it was, there was no option of removal. If she had been spayed at 5 months she would only have had a 0.05% risk of getting it. Because she was left til 6, she was one of the one in fours. 

Unlike some people I do not for one minute suggest there are no downsides to spaying, I don't even believe I would neuter a male dog in future unless there was good reason. However when it comes to bitches I don't know of any downside, or even the total downsides, that could outweigh that huge risk of cancer. I completely respect the rights of others to choose differently based on their own priorities, but I reserve the right to poke anyone in the left eye that suggests I am wrong to spay young after what Ruby went through. 



Pimperella said:


> And at what age did you spay your 6 yr old Cancer bitch at?
> You do not say as to when you got her spayed? Or as to wether her mum suffered the same fate.
> You need to put up actual facts. you can't say, I have read. I have been told.
> I read countlessly from vets, breeders and laymen, that docking didn't hurt the pups at all. However, If a pup is trod on it's tail by mum, they scream the place down, and scream when someone cuts their tails off. So because I read it didn't hurt them, I ignore the screams? No.
> ...


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

KathyM said:


> With all due respect, in rescue they have the option of getting a better home, when a dog is dead that is somewhat compromised.
> 
> I have never had a bitch with incontinence after being spayed, I have no doubt the incidence is higher in spayed bitches, but the literature I have read suggests if you're going to spay, the sooner the better for both incontinence and mammary cancer. Bitches spayed before the first season are less likely to become incontinent than those spayed after. Bitches spayed before the 1st season have literally no risk of mammary cancer. There's no competition here for me personally, but that's just my choice. But yes I do wish her old owners had her spayed at 5 months because I'd still have her now, instead of her having got mammary cancer at the "grand old" age of 6 and having died at 7. Sorry if I can't see that as better than being incontinent, but perhaps you'd feel differently if you'd nursed her through 11 months of it. :bash:


Sorry that you had to go through such a thing, I can't imagine how dreadful it must be. 

That said, I am sure, as you would expect, that your personal opinion on the matter is affected by that. Do you honestly think rescue has people queing up to take incontinent bitches home? So that they can have leaked urine all over their house, and a bitch that is in discomfort an ddistressed all the time because she knows she shouldn't toilet in the house, but she can't help it? All very well if you've owned the dog for years, but there are lots of young, healthy dogs in rescue, and they are the ones that get homes first, I don't believe for one second you don't realise that. 

The actual figures (although some studies suggest it's less) are that approx. 1 in 4 bitches will get mammary tumours. NOT 1 in 4 will get mammary cancer. Of those that do get mammary tumours, approx half of those are cancerous, obviously not all will die. Mammary cancer, if caught early enough is fairly successfully treated. It is certainly easier to treat that bone cancer, or urinary tract cancer. After all, we can remove mammary glands, but we cannot remove the urinary tract, can we? So the 'arguement' isn't just about a bit of incontinence (although I would argue that a seriously incontinent bitch that cannot be treated with medication has such poor quality of life in some cases that being put to sleep is the kindest thing) it is about increasing the risk of other cancers, in some cases by up to five times.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I would challenge anyone to say Ruby's cancer was treatable - in her case it was caught not just early but immediately on breast changes and was already terminal, sorry but this idea that mammary cancer is no big deal is far too common. A lot of older bitches become incontinent whether spayed or not and yes of course I'm affected by my experiences, as would you be. I also have positive experiences of neutering bitches and female cats young, including paediatric neutering. Everyone's views are affected by their experiences, so to attempt to discount someone's for being biased, you're essentially discounting your own (there's the psychology student coming out of me again!). 

I've not lectured anyone about what to do with their dogs, I've repeatedly said that this is my personal decision only, but in return have had people shouting in caps that no dogs should be neutered young, with unsubstantiated reasons being given with no proof to back them up. Then when I posted scientific evidence I was told by the same person to prove it, something that hasn't been done by the opposite side of the debate lol.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

KathyM said:


> I would challenge anyone to say Ruby's cancer was treatable - in her case it was caught not just early but immediately on breast changes and was already terminal, sorry but this idea that mammary cancer is no big deal is far too common. A lot of older bitches become incontinent whether spayed or not and yes of course I'm affected by my experiences, as would you be. I also have positive experiences of neutering bitches and female cats young, including paediatric neutering. Everyone's views are affected by their experiences, so to attempt to discount someone's for being biased, you're essentially discounting your own (there's the psychology student coming out of me again!).
> 
> I've not lectured anyone about what to do with their dogs, I've repeatedly said that this is my personal decision only, but in return have had people shouting in caps that no dogs should be neutered young, with unsubstantiated reasons being given with no proof to back them up. Then when I posted scientific evidence I was told by the same person to prove it, something that hasn't been done by the opposite side of the debate lol.


I'm not using your personal experiences to discount your views, I am saying that what you are typing is factually incorrect. 1 in 4 bitches DO NOT get mammary _cancer_. They get mammary _tumours_. (Although as stated above, some studies show the risk of mammary cancers to be lower, actually around 3-4%, which is a lot less than 12.5%) I do not for one second think that mammary cancers are not serious, but I do think it is ridiculous to discount the risks of other cancers. 

If you are going to debate one side of the arguement, then do so with accurate information. 

Of course, I could post a whole loads of links with information which lists the positives and negatives of neutering or spaying, or doing so early, but really, what is the point? They are merely internet articles, maybe base don scientific papers and studies, but the results of studies aren't usually published on the internet whereby the general public have access to them. 

As far as I am concerned, (and it wasn't me who asked for proof) you have posted the very sad story of your bitch who died of mammary cancer. Dreadful, but that is one bitch, and one dog is not representitive of things as a whole.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Ive got 4 castrated males and 7 spayed bitches. Some of the bitches were spayed before the first season and some after the first season. 3 of the males were castrated at 8 months and 1 at 15 months. They all make correct size and body mass with no problems at all. My dogs usually live until the 13 to 16 range and in the past Ive never had any problems with my older ones at all and they have passed from age related illnesses nothing to do with neutering.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

midori said:


> Sorry that you had to go through such a thing, I can't imagine how dreadful it must be.
> 
> That said, I am sure, as you would expect, that your personal opinion on the matter is affected by that. Do you honestly think rescue has people queing up to take incontinent bitches home? So that they can have leaked urine all over their house, and a bitch that is in discomfort an ddistressed all the time because she knows she shouldn't toilet in the house, but she can't help it? All very well if you've owned the dog for years, but there are lots of young, healthy dogs in rescue, and they are the ones that get homes first, I don't believe for one second you don't realise that.
> 
> The actual figures (although some studies suggest it's less) are that approx. 1 in 4 bitches will get mammary tumours. NOT 1 in 4 will get mammary cancer. Of those that do get mammary tumours, approx half of those are cancerous, obviously not all will die. Mammary cancer, if caught early enough is fairly successfully treated. It is certainly easier to treat that bone cancer, or urinary tract cancer. After all, we can remove mammary glands, but we cannot remove the urinary tract, can we? So the 'arguement' isn't just about a bit of incontinence (although I would argue that a seriously incontinent bitch that cannot be treated with medication has such poor quality of life in some cases that being put to sleep is the kindest thing) it is about increasing the risk of other cancers, in some cases by up to five times.


 
Ahh so your only argument is with semantics? I did not say all cancers were malignant, you're definition is just different. To know the cancer is not malignant, one would have to perform surgery anyway, and given the rate Ruby died at, you'd want to do the full mammary strip just to be sure. 

Once again I didn't at any point lecture anyone about what to do with their dogs, I only posted my experience and what I have learned from it. In my experience (not just as an owner) there are no reasons strong enough not to spay a bitch before her first season. I didn't say you had to do it, if you're happy with the (massive and removable) risk then that's entirely your choice! :whistling2::lol2:

ETA: And with respect to your "just one bitch" statement, I think if you had seen what Ruby went through and what we went through you would think more highly of that "just one bitch" and perhaps rethink your wording - at no point did I say she was representative of dogs as a whole, I was presenting a valid experience.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

KathyM said:


> Ahh so your only argument is with semantics? I did not say all cancers were malignant, you're definition is just different. To know the cancer is not malignant, one would have to perform surgery anyway, and given the rate Ruby died at, you'd want to do the full mammary strip just to be sure.
> 
> Once again I didn't at any point lecture anyone about what to do with their dogs, I only posted my experience and what I have learned from it. In my experience (not just as an owner) there are no reasons strong enough not to spay a bitch before her first season. I didn't say you had to do it, if you're happy with the (massive and removable) risk then that's entirely your choice! :whistling2::lol2:
> 
> ETA: And with respect to your "just one bitch" statement, I think if you had seen what Ruby went through and what we went through you would think more highly of that "just one bitch" and perhaps rethink your wording - at no point did I say she was representative of dogs as a whole, I was presenting a valid experience.


 
Well, tumours that aren't cancerous aren't life threatening, are they? So, don't really apply to the debate. Any surgery to remove and invetigate such a tumour is no more dangerous that a surgery to spay. 

You will find that most vets don't even advocate spaying before a first season, because the facts show that the best time to spay a bitch, if you are going to, when _all evidence, _not just that relating to mammary tumours, is taken into consideration. 

I also haven't lectured anyone about what to do, and as I have said before, I am neither especially for or against neutering, because I think all cases should be looked at individually. I just think that people should be aware of the potential drawbacks and make an informed decision.


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

midori said:


> Sorry that you had to go through such a thing, I can't imagine how dreadful it must be.
> 
> That said, I am sure, as you would expect, that your personal opinion on the matter is affected by that. Do you honestly think rescue has people queing up to take incontinent bitches home? So that they can have leaked urine all over their house, and a bitch that is in discomfort an ddistressed all the time because she knows she shouldn't toilet in the house, but she can't help it? All very well if you've owned the dog for years, but there are lots of young, healthy dogs in rescue, and they are the ones that get homes first, I don't believe for one second you don't realise that.


I would be one of those people who owns incontinent dogs. Neither of which are in discomfort or distress.

There are lots of dogs in rescue full stop, still doesnt stop people breeding and adding to those number though..


And I think you will find if you have read the various links that I have posted before on neutering, the effects and the ages of dogs being neutered. It shows its more viable to neuter a dog at a younger age.
Its done in America and I'm happy to say that vets in this country are also neutering young puppies and kittens without any problems.
My male Staffie was just four months when I had him neutered and he has no physical or mental problems from being neutered. If I ever get another puppy I would also happily neuter again at that age.

I have no idea why pet homes leave there dogs entire, they have no reason to. And maybe if all dogs were neutered before a set age and chipped to the breeder and owner there would be allot less suffering and less unwanted dogs in this world being distoryed in our pounds.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

marthaMoo said:


> I would be one of those people who owns incontinent dogs. Neither of which are in discomfort or distress.
> 
> There are lots of dogs in rescue full stop, still doesnt stop people breeding and adding to those number though..
> 
> ...


The AVMA have actually spoken out following a large study of nuetered and un-neutered dogs over 40 years, saying that they (therefore their members, around 80,000 vets) feel that dogs shouldn't be neutered so early, because the findings of the study have shown that neutered dogs are significantly more likely to suffer hip dysplaica. 

You cannot dispute the fact that the closing of the growth plates is delayed by neutering prior to them closing.

As I have said before, (in this thread actually) responsible ownership prevents unwanted litters, not neutering. As I have also said before, in Sweden it was illegal to neuter dogs until pretty recently. Yet they have never had any problem with unwanted dogs, and shelters barely exist there.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

KM. I had a 14 yr GSD with Mammory tumour.
She start with the tumour at 12.
She was spayed at 8 years old.
Most GSD's don't live longer than 11 years on average.

So I also have experienced it. However I had Molly a lot longer than your dog.
I had her 10 years, no offence, you had yours a few months.

I actually have living proof. Right here, sat next to me. as to what earlier neutering in a slow developing breed, can cause. 

I wasn't saying don't neuter.

Would you neuter and spay children?
The italians used to do it. Look what happened to the young boys because of it, and nearly all died young.

History shows us what is wrong. Yet we always repeat it's mistakes.


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

midori said:


> The AVMA have actually spoken out following a large study of nuetered and un-neutered dogs over 40 years, saying that they (therefore their members, around 80,000 vets) feel that dogs shouldn't be neutered so early, because the findings of the study have shown that neutered dogs are significantly more likely to suffer hip dysplaica.
> 
> You cannot dispute the fact that the closing of the growth plates is delayed by neutering prior to them closing.
> 
> As I have said before, (in this thread actually) responsible ownership prevents unwanted litters, not neutering. As I have also said before, in Sweden it was illegal to neuter dogs until pretty recently. Yet they have never had any problem with unwanted dogs, and shelters barely exist there.


Hip Dysplacia? I have yet to read that interesting article.

You try dealing with dogs that are suffering from various Cancers due to them being left entire. Sometimes you only have them for weeks untill you have to have them PTS. Not there owners, no they chucked them out on the streets in there final days.

Untill you can do something about peoples mentality towards animals I still stand by what I said. All pet dogs should have to be neutered at a set age, hopefully reducing the risk of cruelty and unwanted litters.

Do you know how many times I've heard the words "accidental litter" because they were waiting for there dog to have a season, but it escaped and got mated then they let the dog have pups?
Too many times to remember!

Its fine enough for breeders to have this kind of stance on the matter, I wouldnt expect them to be any different, they cant be since they breed.
But when your handing out advice like this please do remember you telling someone there dog is too young or not mature enough to be neutered just could be the cause of another unwanted litter. Or a dog never being neutered and ending up with Cancer.
Your not talking to other breeders, your talking to Joe on the street who doesnt need to be walking around with an entire dog.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

marthaMoo said:


> Hip Dysplacia? I have yet to read that interesting article.
> 
> You try dealing with dogs that are suffering from various Cancers due to them being left entire. Sometimes you only have them for weeks untill you have to have them PTS. Not there owners, no they chucked them out on the streets in there final days.
> 
> ...


There are several studies showing that hip dysplacia is an increased risk in neutered dogs, that isn't a new thing. There is also increased risk of cruciate ligament injury. 

On top of that, the risk of certain cancers increases by up to five times with neutering, (I did state that earlier, wondered if you'd missed it as you mentioned cancer in neutered dogs) so there is abit of a 'trade off'. 

I don't know why people insist on seeing breeders as some sort of different category of dog owner, with their own agenda. I care about 'my' breed as a whole, and am heavily involved in it. Of course, I do realise there are some risks involved with keeping my bitches entire, and also from breeding from them, but my own dogs are firstly my pets, and if I felt that by keeping them entire there was significantly more risk to them than if I had them spayed, I wouldn't hesitate to do so and simply wouldn't breed from them. 

I do understand what you are saying, but if people are going to manage their dogs irresponsibly and allow them to get pregnant accidentally and then go on to have 'random' litters', then they wouldn't chose to neuter anyway, I suspect. I get extremely upset about the way dogs are bred in this country, and the number of dogs in rescue. The way some people treat their pet dogs and pass them on at the drop of a hat is beyond me, an dit makes me sick. Something does need to be done about it, I absolutely agree, but I don't think forcing people to neuter is the right way to go about it. 

And for the record, I have never given anyone advice, just given my opinions on the matter, and the reasons I have formed those opinions.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I think with the current problem with Staffies in rescues no one should be breeding them.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Pimperella said:


> KM. I had a 14 yr GSD with Mammory tumour.
> She start with the tumour at 12.
> She was spayed at 8 years old.
> Most GSD's don't live longer than 11 years on average.
> ...


You know what - the term "no offence" more often than not really means "I'm going to say something really bloody hurtful now". If that's all you can resort to, then maybe I should point out that had your bitch been spayed younger she wouldn't have had the tumours! You were lucky she didn't die younger, my bitch lost half her potential life to them.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

marthaMoo said:


> Hip Dysplacia? I have yet to read that interesting article.
> 
> You try dealing with dogs that are suffering from various Cancers due to them being left entire. Sometimes you only have them for weeks untill you have to have them PTS. Not there owners, no they chucked them out on the streets in there final days.
> 
> ...


 Just out of interest, have you the figures to hand about exactly what percentage of unneutered dogs get cancer? I only ask because in all my years (25+) of keeping large numbers of dogs(5 or more), I have only lost 2 bitches to cancer in the whole time.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

KathyM said:


> maybe I should point out that had your bitch been spayed younger she wouldn't have had the tumours! You were lucky she didn't die younger, my bitch lost half her potential life to them.



Are you really saying that all early spayed bitches never get mammary cancer?


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> Are you really saying that all early spayed bitches never get mammary cancer?


 
Yes thats what she is insisting yes.
Not to mention that my GSD bitch was 2 years over the average age for a GSD and that 14 was about the top level age wise she would have reached as it was her bowels and bladder giving way due to age that we decided with our trusted vet, that pts was far better than watching her degrade and suffer.

Saying that she is not forcing anyone but using Emotional Blackmail to force eople to do so.


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## Mush (Jan 20, 2008)

marthaMoo said:


> I would be one of those people who owns incontinent dogs. Neither of which are in discomfort or distress.
> 
> There are lots of dogs in rescue full stop, still doesnt stop people breeding and adding to those number though..
> 
> ...



My dog is entire and will stay that way

It doesnt affect him in any way, he doesnt seek females, he doesnt try and hump females even when theyre in season and therefore i dont see it necessary to neuter.

I think it should be on an individual basis.

For some reason u assume all dogs that are entire will mate, Harry wont, as he wont have the oppertunity to do so.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> Are you really saying that all early spayed bitches never get mammary cancer?


No, I'm saying that the studies show that bitches spayed before the first season only have a 0.05% chance of developing mammary tumours. Bitches not spayed til after the 2nd season or later have a 26% chance. And to be fair I was only reacting to a spiteful post about how I'd only had my dog 11 months which obviously made it "no big deal". 

Pimperella, you need to start using your eyes and your brain and reading my posts, you'd see that at no point have I said this is what others should do, I've repeatedly said it's my personal view only and you've done nothing but shout and criticize, you're only peed off you got it back! : victory:


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

KathyM said:


> No, I'm saying that the studies show that bitches spayed before the first season only have a 0.05% chance of developing mammary tumours. Bitches not spayed til after the 2nd season or later have a 26% chance. And to be fair I was only reacting to a spiteful post about how I'd only had my dog 11 months which obviously made it "no big deal".
> 
> Pimperella, you need to start using your eyes and your brain and reading my posts, you'd see that at no point have I said this is what others should do, I've repeatedly said it's my *personal view* only and you've done nothing but shout and criticize, you're only peed off you got it back! : victory:


 
but your trying to use emotional blackmail. your stating they will all die if you don't spay. thats emotional blackmail.


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## Xotics_Freak (Jul 19, 2009)

Pimperella said:


> but your trying to use emotional blackmail. your stating they will all die if you don't spay. thats emotional blackmail.


i have to say i do agree as thats how i have read it too


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

How is posting my personal experience emotional blackmail? If my personal experience was backing your opinion you would be applauding me, it's just because it doesn't that you're saying that. I have not at any point said anyone should feel the same as me, but when someone shouts in caps on a thread after I've posted it that NO DOG SHOULD BE NEUTERED YOUNG as if I did something wrong, then what do you expect. I respect others' views, wish the same was afforded out of politeness by them! :whistling2:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

At the end of the day people will neuter when they think the time is right. Personally I neuter young as Ive never had a problem with doing so. If others neuter later or not at all that is up to them. I dont see why every thread turns into a slanging match instead of staying the debate its meant to be. Everybody has different opinions and always will have so shouting and sreaming has no effect at all its just a waste of energy


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