# Can we change the Leo's enclosure?



## kieransr (Oct 29, 2011)

Well i am getting 2 female Leo's for Christmas, And we have a big Tank and a little Tank, And we thought, Put the in the little one when they are babies, Then move them over to the 3 foot one when they are adults.
So would it be ok to do this? As i know moving an animals home can stress them out, Or should we just leave them in the little Tank even when they are adults?
And one more thing, We went to this reptile shop, And all he had was Male Leo's together, They got on as best friends would do, I originally wanted two males, So this swayed me, And people on here also said you needed a 3 foot tank for two adult Leo's, This guy had his in a little Tank and like i said, They were all two males, And they seemed as happy as can be, So do we need a small Tank and can we have two males together? Because what people said on here, I should do none of that, But what that guy had at his reptile shop, It leads me to think different, And he had all ranges of pet's, The Leo's had their original tales, All the reptiles were happy, And he knew a lot, So that is why i am swayed with what he said.
Sorry for that last paragraph being so long!
I can't believe i forgot this! How much should i chang their calsium sand bedding, And how much should i feed them in a day?
Also sorry for the questions amount!


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

2 males will fight when they mature, you would be better getting 2 females as these are more likely to get on (but be prepared to separate should they fight). When you say "tank" do you mean glass tanks or wooden vivariums? Wooden vivs are better at holding the temperature. You will need a heat mat which covers a third to a half of the floor, this must be connected to a thermostat to regulate the temperature of the heat mat otherwise it can burn your reptiles.


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## olivine (Feb 5, 2009)

In all honesty, the pet shop keeper *really* doesn't know as much as he'd like you to believe. Under *NO* circumstances should two adult male leos be housed together: they will eventually fight and cause serious injury (or even kill) each other. You should also bear in mind that even with two females, there are no guarantees that they'll cohabit successfully and you may need to separate them immediately if fighting occurs. Personally, I house all my leos individually.

In terms of the 'tank', then two adult leos will need a minimum floor area of 36" x 12" (more if you can manage it), so your decision on whether to upgrade them should be based on that. As has already been advised though, glass vivs aren't ideal for leos: wooden vivs are far better, as they both retain heat more efficiently and, as they provide more cover, make the leo feel more secure.

Substrate choice is always cause for debate but, personally, I would always use slate tiles, lino, even kitchen towel for a leo, rather than loose substrates. I would certainly *never* use calcium sand, due to the risk of impaction. 

With regard to feeding, it depends upon the age of the leo. Hatchlings and juveniles will eat a lot: mine would clear 10-12 feeders (crickets / locusts / roaches) per night, plus mealworms. Adults eat considerably less, but the amount varies between individuals. 

Try checking out the care sheets on SleepyD's website: they contain excellent advice and include a list of the equipment you'll need.


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## kieransr (Oct 29, 2011)

Nah this guy even said of his expirience and stuff, And when it came to buying stuff, He even said to my uncle and me, "I know that says it is the best stuff, But this one is cheaper, And better!" Turns out it was, So he was not trying to seel us stuff, He was a good guy and did what is right, Also, He said and other owners i have seen said Lino is good, But Calcium sand goes right through them and kinda puts them in their natural enviroment from what i heard, And last but not least, It is a wood tank.


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## kieransr (Oct 29, 2011)

I know all about the heat mats and stuff, And we will be getting a new thermostate to regulate the tempreture, But thanks for the other stuff!


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

kieransr said:


> Well i am getting 2 female Leo's for Christmas, And we have a big Tank and a little Tank, And we thought, Put the in the little one when they are babies, Then move them over to the 3 foot one when they are adults.
> So would it be ok to do this? As i know moving an animals home can stress them out, Or should we just leave them in the little Tank even when they are adults?
> And one more thing, We went to this reptile shop, And all he had was Male Leo's together, They got on as best friends would do, I originally wanted two males, So this swayed me, And people on here also said you needed a 3 foot tank for two adult Leo's, This guy had his in a little Tank and like i said, They were all two males, And they seemed as happy as can be, So do we need a small Tank and can we have two males together? Because what people said on here, I should do none of that, But what that guy had at his reptile shop, It leads me to think different, And he had all ranges of pet's, The Leo's had their original tales, All the reptiles were happy, And he knew a lot, So that is why i am swayed with what he said.
> Sorry for that last paragraph being so long!
> ...


hmm...

Not quite sure what the exact background is here but in simple terms :

Two or more male Leo's should NEVER be housed together.
Leos are almost always better off alone, females may tolerate each other but can also fight badly. Any Leo can attack and injure any other Leo.
It's recommended to have minimum of 2ft of floor space for an adult Leo, a minimum of another foot for each other leo.
Read the caresheet linked on the other post and please don't use calcium sand as it can cause problems.... I'd recommend linoleum or files instead of this.

The guy in the petshop appears to be doing what is best for him, not the geckos....


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## olivine (Feb 5, 2009)

No, I'm afraid that calcium sand does *not* go "right through them": if you want proof, check out the photos of the autopsy performed on this leo. The "digestible" sand referred to is calci-sand. The natural habitat of leos actually consists of rocky outcrops surrounded by dry, compacted soil with a consistency similar to that of concrete: that's why I use slate in my vivs, as loose substrates in no way replicates their natural environment. 

If you feel that the pet owner knows his stuff, then that's you decision. But I strongly suspect that you'll be hard pushed to find any of the most experienced leo breeders / keepers on here who would agree with his approach to husbandry.


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

kieransr said:


> Nah this guy even said of his expirience and stuff, And when it came to buying stuff, He even said to my uncle and me, "I know that says it is the best stuff, But this one is cheaper, And better!" Turns out it was, So he was not trying to seel us stuff, He was a good guy and did what is right, Also, He said and other owners i have seen said Lino is good, But Calcium sand goes right through them and kinda puts them in their natural enviroment from what i heard, And last but not least, It is a wood tank.



Sorry but if this guy is telling you that you can keep 2 males together then he knows bugger all about the reptiles he is selling :devil:. Most people will go to a reptile shop & take their advice as they think that the shop knows what it is doing, after all they are selling reptiles aren't they? Most shops just have a sale in mind, they buy the reptiles in & sell them as soon as they can (so they don't lose money in feeding them). 

If you want good correct advice then listen to the people on here who keep/breed them :2thumb:.


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## 53bird (Sep 30, 2009)

olivine and big red one have given some top advice there :no1:

most pet shops only care about making money and the idea of two males together is just not right :bash: there have been posts in the past of people doing this and the leos DO rip each other to pieces sooner rather than later


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

olivine said:


> If you feel that the pet owner knows his stuff, then that's you decision. But I strongly suspect that you'll be hard pushed to find any of the most experienced leo breeders / keepers on here who would agree with his approach to husbandry.


*nods* pretty much as said by Olivine, BRO and others ~ even females can fight and/or have domination/bullying issues and I certainly would *not* recommend keeping two males together... leos don't do 'best friends' ~ they may look 'cute' but they can inflict serious injuries to each other .. I would seriously question how much of his 'advise' is more sales orientated then anything else


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## loonymoony (Oct 22, 2009)

*Total Troll fest.....*

*This is a total troll fest..........sorry but there is no way I can take this seriously, no one in their right mind would EVER recommend two male Leo's being housed together (co-housing females is asking for trouble in my opinion and always house all my guys seperately) then to add insult to injury with a small set up and calci sand??? this is barmy, each of my guys has a 2.5ft x 1.5ft viv to themselves (2ft x 1ft being the min requirement per leo) and wouldn't even consider anything smaller for long term housing and any loose substrate is a highly debated and touchy subject on here, personally I would NEVER use it and have Lino in all mine, simply not worth the risks involved, calsi sand is the number one nightmare substrate and as already said is absolutely nothing like their natural environment, no sand is for that matter. Something tells me this whole thread is about causing a massive argument and nothing more, as no one can be that foolish as to come on here and state all that rubbish and be serious, even the smallest amount of basic research would have answered these questions and put you straight, that 'pet shop owner' is a joke, if indeed he actually exsists.......Casi sand, co-habbing males and a questionable set up all in one thread ha! ha!..... as said 'Total Troll Fest' :lol2: 
come on now guys don't be baited...walk away before* *you burst a blood vessle!


Sleepy I'm stealing your Quote and making it a sticky, as it's sooooooo fab and made me chuckle......... *leos don't do 'best friends'......SleepyD ....*soooo True!..unless of course you're the one with the tweezers that is ha!

All joking aside I find it worrying that threads like this still keep popping up, there is so much great Leo care advice about for new keepers, loads of amazing sites and truly it's not rocket science, Leo's are a very easy animal to make happy and contented!
*


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

You have had excellent advice from Olivine and Big Red One and corny girl - these are very experienced keepers who know what they are talking about. I'm sorry, the pet shop owner may have seemed impressive, but he is talking a load of bull.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Lunar,

My first thought was 'wind up' to be honest as pretty much every bad piece of advice was included in one post.....

BUT, I've seen similar and worse on here, which have turned out to be genuine. So now nothing surprises me.

Let's see if we get anything else.


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## loonymoony (Oct 22, 2009)

*my thoughts ecxactly.......*



Big Red One said:


> Lunar,
> 
> My first thought was 'wind up' to be honest as pretty much every bad piece of advice was included in one post.....
> 
> ...



_*Yeah exactly my thoughts hun, don't get me wrong I am more than happy to help anyone with genuine questions and issues, this was just too much of a bad thing, if you know what I mean eg all the big No no's in one post.
we'll see, really I just posted because I felt it was important that any Newbies reading this didn't think for even a moment that any of that 'advice' given by the questionable pet shop owner was correct or acceptable, too much bad advice doled out willy nilly these days and it's the animals that suffer the consequences :whip:*_


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

The OP is 15 years old so may need some extra help. Hopefully from us rather than that pet shop owner.


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## loonymoony (Oct 22, 2009)

*Ah but is he?......*



jools said:


> The OP is 15 years old so may need some extra help. Hopefully from us rather than that pet shop owner.


_*Ah but is he??..... I've seen several threads almost identical to this on several different forum sites these last few months and they spiralled into a total troll fest, with the original poster sitting back to enjoy the riot, his only input being to add addition fuel to the fire in the form of further 'no,no's...... so hey thats why I am sceptical.*_


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

loonymoony said:


> _*Ah but is he??..... I've seen several threads almost identical to this on several different forum sites these last few months and they spiralled into a total troll fest, with the original poster sitting back to enjoy the riot, his only input being to add addition fuel to the fire in the form of further 'no,no's...... so hey thats why I am sceptical.*_


This could, unfortunately well be the case Lunar. But based on his previous threads I tend to lean towards it being true. Anyhow - Newbie section rules etc. etc. - I think we have to take this at face value for now.


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## kieransr (Oct 29, 2011)

I always go with more answers over expirience, So i will go with you guys, But that dude will always be on my mind.


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

kieransr said:


> I always go with more answers over expirience, So i will go with you guys, But that dude will always be on my mind.



Stick with us on here mate & you will get the correct advice so that your Leo's will live happy contented lives :2thumb:. We get quite a few new owners on here who like you have been given totally the wrong advice from the pet shop (like that you don't need a thermostat :devil.


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## loonymoony (Oct 22, 2009)

*experience and concensus......*



kieransr said:


> I always go with more answers over expirience, So i will go with you guys, But that dude will always be on my mind.



_*Think you'll find love that Sleepy and Jools have far more experience than the pet shop guy, they've had Leo's for absolute epic years and what they don't know isn't worth knowing :2thumb: forgotten more than he knows I would say ha! Experience is by far the winning ingredient here... As corny girl said these guys won't steer you wrong, nor will Big Red, 53Bird or Olivine, they are all highly respected on here and know a lot more than just a 'thing or two' about Leo's, so I say you have a wealth of experience AND the general concensus/eg numbers on the side of this info and not the rubbish you were told at that pet shop, I say avoid it like the plague and find a nice reputuable breeder/hobbiest that will give you sound advice and help as you need it and of course you will start as you mean to go on with a top class healthy happy geck!*_


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## kieransr (Oct 29, 2011)

I though people were nice on here, I quenuinlly did, The reasons i am getting these Leo's is to be more happy as i am not eating from depression, I am in hospital later on today because of my non eating, How can you even say i am a troll? I am 15, Never had expirience with lizards before, How am i meant to know this is all the bad things into one? I put this in the newbie section because i am one, Thanks for complete ruining my day and just not making me want them now, If it matters to you so much why should i get them? Thanks.


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## kieransr (Oct 29, 2011)

I am not a Troll, My Laptop got hacked by a Troll, My accounts get done in by reporter trolls, You can see what i said to that other person why i am getting these, I just came on here for advice and to make friends, You don't seem as bad as the other one, But thanks, You've really mad me sad and not want them now if it matters to yoou all so much.


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

kieransr said:


> I though people were nice on here, I quenuinlly did, The reasons i am getting these Leo's is to be more happy as i am not eating from depression, I am in hospital later on today because of my non eating, How can you even say i am a troll? I am 15, Never had expirience with lizards before, How am i meant to know this is all the bad things into one? I put this in the newbie section because i am one, Thanks for complete ruining my day and just not making me want them now, If it matters to you so much why should i get them? Thanks.



Please don't feel like this. Like any forum you will get people who just seem to pick on anyone that they feel like picking on. It's not on, most of us on here are willing to help no matter what the questions are. At the end of the day we have the reptiles welfare at the top of the list & there are many pet shops who give out incorrect advice (you weren't to know it was wrong). Animals are very good for people with depression as it gives you something to focus on, so please don't feel you can't get them because of one persons comments.


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## kieransr (Oct 29, 2011)

Thank you, May i apologize for my behaviour before, It just seemed like that person was so nie then is calling me a Troll, Call em anything, But a Troll and i get mad, I am just under so much stress from not eating and not sleeping and GCSE's so my mum is getting them to hopefully help all these things, And the fact i am closer to animals then to humans, And i do agree, If i am new to Lizards how am i meant to know from right or wrong? I will take up your information over others, Than you.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Loonymoony is a very kind and helpful forum member. You have to understand that we often actually do have Trolls on here. We all spend a lot of time trying to help new keepers, so that when one DOES (NOT you) turn out to be a Troll it is upsetting for genuine members like Loony moony.

Please don't be put off asking for help. The best thing you can do before getting any Leopard geckos is to read this care sheet Leopard Gecko Care Sheets It explains things very clearly and is one of the best care sheets I have read.

The last thing you need is to buy Leos, have them set-up wrong and then for them not to thrive. You want to be able to enjoy them, not to be worried about them


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