# This is INSANE!!!!!!!!



## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Ok, am I mistaken or it this completely nuts?:

I bought two 3-inch Gold Saums ("Green Terrors") about 2 weeks ago and gave them a 20 gallon tank to start off as a grow-out tank. They SPAWNED Thursday night, the eggs hatched TWENTY-FOUR HOURS later (Friday night) instead of 3-4 days, and the wigglers are already free-swimmers now at 5 days old rather than typical 9-12 days. What the HECK is going on here? ALL THREE situations seem to be phenomenally quick and I didn't think males were sexually mature until 7-8 inches, females 4 1/2 inches. Water temperature is 80 degrees F. Any input, feedback, comments, concerns or preferably....ANSWERS.


Also, I have been wondering lately about the floating-method of introducing/acclimating a fish. Is this STRICTLY for temperature or if I am moving a fish from a tank that is 80 degrees F to another tank that is also 80 degrees F, do I still have to float or can I just pour them in?


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## Adam98150 (Jan 12, 2009)

Victor Creed said:


> Ok, am I mistaken or it this completely nuts?:
> 
> I bought two 3-inch Gold Saums ("Green Terrors") about 2 weeks ago and gave them a 20 gallon tank to start off as a grow-out tank. They SPAWNED Thursday night, the eggs hatched TWENTY-FOUR HOURS later (Friday night) instead of 3-4 days, and the wigglers are already free-swimmers now at 5 days old rather than typical 9-12 days. What the HECK is going on here? ALL THREE situations seem to be phenomenally quick and I didn't think males were sexually mature until 7-8 inches, females 4 1/2 inches. Water temperature is 80 degrees F. Any input, feedback, comments, concerns or preferably....ANSWERS.
> 
> ...


Don't know much about cichlid spawning, but I can answer this!

The temperature won't be exactly the same, if it's a similar temp float it for 10 mins or so. And this is just a suggestion, but it's always best when acclimatising fish to introduce some of the tank water into the bag periodically to ensure the water chemistry is the same. It's not just the temp you have to think about.


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## BornSlippy (Jan 11, 2010)

It's not that unusual, well at least the spawning at an early age. I had jaguar cichlids breed and produce fry at that size in fact the female was closer to 2" (I have pics somewhere). I hear breeding too early stunts their growth but my mate still has the male jag and he's a beast.

For floating I'm more concerned about the water params. Say you bought a fish from the lfs that was in soft water with a ph of 6.0 and your tank was hard alkaline with a ph of 8.0, thats quite an adjustment for the fish to have to make. I float the bag for an hour and every 10 mins or so add in a small amount of my tank water before netting the fish and adding to the tank(the less stinky fish shop water in my tank the better).


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

BornSlippy said:


> It's not that unusual, well at least the spawning at an early age. I had jaguar cichlids breed and produce fry at that size in fact the female was closer to 2" (I have pics somewhere). I hear breeding too early stunts their growth but my mate still has the male jag and he's a beast.
> 
> For floating I'm more concerned about the water params. Say you bought a fish from the lfs that was in soft water with a ph of 6.0 and your tank was hard alkaline with a ph of 8.0, thats quite an adjustment for the fish to have to make. I float the bag for an hour and every 10 mins or so add in a small amount of my tank water before netting the fish and adding to the tank(the less stinky fish shop water in my tank the better).


Cool, I was waiting to hear your thoughts on this,....what do you think about the accelerated hatch and rapid growth? They hatched in 1/3-1/4 of normal time and 1/2 the time it takes to become free-swimmers, unless I've totally missed something along the lines of breeding......


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

Victor Creed said:


> Also, I have been wondering lately about the floating-method of introducing/acclimating a fish. Is this STRICTLY for temperature or if I am moving a fish from a tank that is 80 degrees F to another tank that is also 80 degrees F, do I still have to float or can I just pour them in?


the floating of the fish in the new tank is not just for temp, you still need to slowly introduce water from new tank into the bag to let the fish adjust to any differences in water.
pH, ammonia etc.
i usually tend to leave them in for about 10 mins for temp, then either make a small hole (or a few holes) in the bag to let water in slowly or open the bag and put the top under the water to let some in.


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## BornSlippy (Jan 11, 2010)

Victor Creed said:


> Cool, I was waiting to hear your thoughts on this,....what do you think about the accelerated hatch and rapid growth? They hatched in 1/3-1/4 of normal time and 1/2 the time it takes to become free-swimmers, unless I've totally missed something along the lines of breeding......


It tends to be the warmer the water the quicket the hatch time though 24 hours does seem really fast.


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## Cleopatra the Royal (Nov 29, 2008)

we had exactly this happen in our LFS. sounds just the same - new shipment of green terrors, a week later they breed at 2 inches long and they seemed pretty fast growers too.


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

So some of you guys are saying this IS normal? It just goes against everything I've ever learned, read or been told. Anyone else have any similar experiences or know anyone w/ similar experiences?


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Victor Creed said:


> Ok, am I mistaken or it this completely nuts?:
> 
> I bought two 3-inch Gold Saums ("Green Terrors") about 2 weeks ago and gave them a 20 gallon tank to start off as a grow-out tank. They SPAWNED Thursday night, the eggs hatched TWENTY-FOUR HOURS later (Friday night) instead of 3-4 days, and the wigglers are already free-swimmers now at 5 days old rather than typical 9-12 days. What the HECK is going on here? ALL THREE situations seem to be phenomenally quick and I didn't think males were sexually mature until 7-8 inches, females 4 1/2 inches. Water temperature is 80 degrees F. Any input, feedback, comments, concerns or preferably....ANSWERS.
> 
> ...


Victor , just a couple of thoughts for you . Firstly could it be that the fish you purchased were not youngsters , but stunted adults ? Secondly , if they are youngsters , imported straight from a fish farm in the far east 1) the sudden change in conditions may have sparked them to spawn or 2) maybe the fish farm has been using hormones to stimulate breeding or growth ?


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

lionfish said:


> Victor , just a couple of thoughts for you . Firstly could it be that the fish you purchased were not youngsters , but stunted adults ? Secondly , if they are youngsters , imported straight from a fish farm in the far east 1) the sudden change in conditions may have sparked them to spawn or 2) maybe the fish farm has been using hormones to stimulate breeding or growth ?


Hmmmm, Green Terrors from Asia? Why would they farm an Amazonian fish all the way over there? I'm supposing the stunted bit may be the only logical explanation, but if a fish is physically stunted, wouldn't that prevent their sex organs from maturing as well? Also, I still have found no logical explanation for the 24-hour hatch period and 5 day wiggler to free-swimmer transformation. Could this be caused by the parents being on growth hormones. Would it be something that would have been passed from parents to eggs/fry or would it only be isolated to the individuals who recieved it initially?


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Victor Creed said:


> Hmmmm, Green Terrors from Asia? Why would they farm an Amazonian fish all the way over there? I'm supposing the stunted bit may be the only logical explanation, but if a fish is physically stunted, wouldn't that prevent their sex organs from maturing as well? Also, I still have found no logical explanation for the 24-hour hatch period and 5 day wiggler to free-swimmer transformation. Could this be caused by the parents being on growth hormones. Would it be something that would have been passed from parents to eggs/fry or would it only be isolated to the individuals who recieved it initially?


 They breed alsorts of fish in the far east , I was looking through a wholesalers list last week from sunglow ( big far east fish farm in Singapore) . There were ilterally hundreds of cichlids and hybrid cichlids in there . I will PM you the e mail address of a friend of mine who is a professional Ichthyologist who will know be able to answer your question re the breeding part


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

I have a question, I figure I'll just use this thread I made from awhile back since it's in regard to the eaxact same pair. They have laid 3 more clutches over the past 2 weeks and each gets fertilized but turns white after a day or two. Anyone have any idea why? They have already spawned over 100 fry which are very healthy and growing fast. Why would a clutch of fertilized eggs randomly turn white and sterile(?) 3 times in a row after a successful spawn?


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

BUMP. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ someone answer this pleaze????


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Maybe they're duck eggs? They're white.


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

maybe they have popped out all the eggs that they are willing?
or your water quality has changed since the last batch?


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Pearson Design said:


> maybe they have popped out all the eggs that they are willing?
> or your water quality has changed since the last batch?



They hatched a clutch in September, but the last 3 spawns were fertilized and turned white eventually...i don't understand this at all. What do you mean by "willing"? Water quality remains constant, I maintain a 6.8 at the lowest before weekly water changes and 7.2/7.4 afterwards (this is typical of all 9 of my SA/CA tanks)....50% every week. Temperature is set to 80 degrees F, but can go a degree or 2 higher. What other factors may contribute to embryonic development in fish eggs?

@ Ashmashmash - the eggs only turn white shortly afterwards....the male always fertilizes them thus the opaque appearance, then gradually one-by-one, they turn white with in a day or two. LOL, if they were duck eggs, I would eat them and never by chicken eggs again.


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

Victor Creed said:


> What do you mean by "willing"?


as in they have had all the eggs that they want to have


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Victor Creed said:


> @ Ashmashmash - the eggs only turn white shortly afterwards....the male always fertilizes them thus the opaque appearance, then gradually one-by-one, they turn white with in a day or two. LOL, if they were duck eggs, I would eat them and never by chicken eggs again.


Tbh I assumed it was a joke... no way any guy gets sex 3 times in 2 weeks! :gasp:


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

AshMashMash said:


> Tbh I assumed it was a joke... no way any guy gets sex 3 times in 2 weeks! :gasp:



What is this "sex" you speak of? I never heard of it.


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

BUMP-BUMP!!! Anyone have any other input and possibly answers for post #12???


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## TroJon (Aug 20, 2009)

water may be out of paramater/ too hard or too acidic etc. etc.

male may be infertile now if the reason he originally spawned was due to hormones etc. etc.

also as far as cichlids go, most cichlids bred come in from the east, regardless of wild population locations, it's just cheaper and easier because of climate and cost.

almost all quality discuss come from south east asia now, and they are an amazonian fish...


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