# Gathering evidence



## soupdragon10 (Jul 27, 2008)

Having read several threads with reference to the anti reptile keeping brigade, it struck me that one of their arguements is that reptiles don't do well in captivity.

I know many keepers like myself weigh their snakes on a regular basis, and it struck me that collating this information about various species might be one way to demonstrate that captive snakes do thrive and grow. It would need to be done for individual species, and obviously have a large sample size to make the figures meaningful.

Just an idea but if organisations like the APA are going to use facts and figures (albeit inaccurate), it might be good to have some of our own that are both accurate, support our point of view and can demonstrate clearly that what they are saying is wrong.


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## lobob (Jul 19, 2010)

yeah, they have no idea what they are talking about. That is a very weak argument lol!


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

The problem with animal rights groups is they don't think any animal should be in captivity at all no matter what it is or how healthy and well looked after they are. I guess proving that we look after our animals may help if we can show and prove this to the authority's. But you will never be able to change animal rights peoples minds no matter what you prove to them as they are loony extremists who think animals are equal to people.


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## soupdragon10 (Jul 27, 2008)

I agree that you will never alter the mind of someone who has set ideas. 

It was more the aim of countering their arguements in the media, if we can say 'recent research has shown that x breed grows at this rate in captivity which it wouldn't do if not thriving.

I have noticed that the media love figures to quote.


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## Pauline (Aug 3, 2006)

One thing to point out is the numbers of snakes that survive in captivity but would die in the wild.


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

soupdragon10 said:


> I agree that you will never alter the mind of someone who has set ideas.
> 
> It was more the aim of countering their arguements in the media, if we can say 'recent research has shown that x breed grows at this rate in captivity which it wouldn't do if not thriving.
> 
> I have noticed that the media love figures to quote.


I think if we had better controls over the sale and breeding of reptiles and a standard of care that was recognized as acceptable this would be a start to countering the claims of groups like this. I know things like this would be a pain to us but as it stands the public are uneducated and scared of reptiles so have little sympathy for us this gives groups like the APA plenty of scope to attack our hobby and get away with it. Now if we had legally recognized standards of care and breeding they would have no argument left to present other than there own loony ideals about animals should not be in captivity. Our hobby at the moment is totally unregulated and its not hard for groups like the APA to find stuff to back up there claims. You would only have to flick through a few threads on hear to find pictures and story's of bad keepers and breeders and horror story's of bad shops not to mention loads of threads about pets at home. We are handing them ammo on a plate by airing our dirty laundry on hear. I think if we all agree to work on a official guide line and standard of care and make the decisions of what is acceptable our selfs then that will be preferable than letting these loonys get the hobby banned or some other authority decide how we keep animals when they don't know anything about them.


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## soupdragon10 (Jul 27, 2008)

I entirely agree - when I bred pedigree cats I gave a leaflet with every kitten, outlining basic husbandry, as well as a section giving information about the diet they had been on and the frequency of feeding.

I haven't got in to breeding snakes yet (and I'm not sure if I will), but if I did I would hope to produce a basic care sheet if one wasn't already available.

Sometimes it's not enough to tell new owners something (you only remember about 10% - 15% of anything you are told) they need something to take away with them to refer to later on.


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## Dexter612 (Apr 2, 2009)

Did you know that 80% of all statistics are nonsense?


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## soupdragon10 (Jul 27, 2008)

Definitely, but while the media are so hung up on them why not try and prove that 99% of x species of snake grows by y grams per month (you could even plot a graph, which they love even more than a statistic).

You could prove that black is white using statistics and then get run over on a zebra crosssing :whistling2:


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## Janine00 (Sep 20, 2008)

rum&coke said:


> I think if we all agree to work on a official guide line and standard of care and make the decisions of what is acceptable our selfs then that will be preferable than letting these loonys get the hobby banned or some other authority decide how we keep animals when they don't know anything about them.


I'd love to say I agree with you, but have you seen how many arguments we have on here about even the simplest of things?... what chance on getting agreement on something as complex as that!...:whistling2:

However, I would like to know where we may be able to find (if at all) good quality research on some of the things that have been touched on in threads about the anti's.... knowing these, and understanding good research practice would help us keep abreast with the best counter arguaments and enable us to state facts rather than our own value system.

I did pm someone yesterday to ask about this, but have not had a reply yet.... anyone else any idea's where to start on this... Could maybe get to do a literary review or similar between us (many hands making light work supposedly)...:lol2:


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

Janine00 said:


> I'd love to say I agree with you, but have you seen how many arguments we have on here about even the simplest of things?... what chance on getting agreement on something as complex as that!...:whistling2:


Oh thats so true ,we cant even agree on things like substrates etc the sad thing is if we cant then maybe one day we wont even be able to argue about it and only be allowed the substrate of choice of the RSPCA or some other organization or authority that don't even know the first thing about the animals in question.


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## soupdragon10 (Jul 27, 2008)

Searching for online sources would be a start. I suspect however that there won't be huge amounts of relevant information that will be relevant or up to date. 

I will give this a try tomorrow to see what I can find. I will concentrate on any research that has been done around captive reptiles and see what I turn up.


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## StrictlyMorelia (May 9, 2009)

lobob said:


> yeah, they have no idea what they are talking about. That is a very weak argument lol!


Neither do half of the people on this forum. Some even think that boas and rainbow boas come from Columbia. They in fact come from COLOMBIA.

That's just the tip of the ice berg!


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## James5012 (Sep 6, 2010)

I completely agree with you...it's a shame so many people out there don't have time to do something useful other than moan about things they know nothing about! Plus I imagine many people are brain washed into following causes they know nothing about!


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## strudel (Nov 19, 2010)

i'm doing a project at college on reptiles as pets, and was hoping to find that they can make good pets by using existing evidence, but I have been overwhelmed by all this bad stuff.
The apa claims that many pet reptiles are wild caught and the humane society of america claims that only 10% of wild caught and ranched reptiles survive the first year in captivity due to stress and poor husbandry during transport. 
The apa also claims that reptiles are poorly adapted to live in captivity due to their evolutionary path. As in, most of their behaviour is innate- they do it automatically, and are therefore I'll adapted to adapt to new situations. They also say that all reptiles suffer from "interaction with transparent boundaries", when they continuously push themselves against transparent boundaries.
I need true actuate counter arguments,preferably ones that can be backed up by evidence against these. Have you guys got any?
I don't have any of my own pet reptiles so I can't use personal experience to help me.
Oh... And the other thing, is what about breeding snakes for specific colour morphs like the albino corn snakes and pythons and that. Is that going to lead to the same problems as dog breeding, where some breeds become particularly prone to particular illnesses?


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