# Tug-Mac?



## Laza (Jun 13, 2009)

Hi ya all. Here's a couple of pic's of siblings from a Mac Enigma x Phantom pairing. This is my first play with the TUG Snow.
Is there a way of telling whether offspring is TUG Snow or Mac?
1st up is an Enigma pos TUG/Mac. I know Macs are white when young, is this the same for TUG?









2nd up is a TUG-Mac Supersnow pos Enigma because of the very pale colouring, or is this because of the TUG-Mac being combined?









Comments will be greatly appreciated. Thanx


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## C4RL (Jun 9, 2010)

The 1st one looks like hypo enigma to me but im sure some 1 will tell me im wrong : victory:


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i bred tug snow to tug hypo snow last year and not all of the babies hatched black and white like you`d expect, 
but they matured into tug snows and tug hypo snows, so leo in the top picture might white out yet.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Unfortunately there is no way to visually distinguish Mack from TUG. Mack x TUG will produce Supersnows, and, in my opinion, they carry one copy of each TUG and Mack (I know others have different ideas). Which means if the Supersnow is bred you also have no idea what the offspring are.

The only way to tell 100% is to breed the offspring to a proven TUG snow, if any supersnows are produced you definitely have a Mack snow.


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## Laza (Jun 13, 2009)

*Leo's*

Thanx for info:2thumb:


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Laza said:


> Hi ya all. Here's a couple of pic's of siblings from a Mac Enigma x Phantom pairing. This is my first play with the TUG Snow.
> Is there a way of telling whether offspring is TUG Snow or Mac?
> 1st up is an Enigma pos TUG/Mac. I know Macs are white when young, is this the same for TUG?
> image
> ...


Codom snow and Dom snow are both born black and white.

This is still unexplained ground. No one really knows what is going on, We just know it happens. IMO I think that when you breed a Codom snow to a Dom snow that all offspring get converted to Codom snow. But that is just a theory at presant, Regarding Codom snow X Dom snow it's all just theory. But i base my theory on the fact that you breed a Codom snow to a Dom snow, You get Normal, Snow type, *Super snow* in the first generation. When really from such a breeding you'd only expect Normal, Codom snow, Dom snow. IMO Super snow souldn't happen onless there's some type of gene conversion going on.

Here's a link to a interesting read with peoples opinions and theorys'etc.
You may get more lost than found but good luck:Na_Na_Na_Na:.
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/genetics/266849-mack-snow-enigma-x-tug.html


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## Laza (Jun 13, 2009)

*Leo's*

Cheers for info Gazz. Will have a look at link in morning mate, by sound of it its abit heavy and not to be read when knackered lol!!!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

gazz said:


> all offspring get converted to Codom snow. But that is just a theory at presant, Regarding Codom snow X Dom snow it's all just theory. But i base my theory on the fact that you breed a Codom snow to a Dom snow, You get Normal, Snow type, *Super snow* in the first generation. When really from such a breeding you'd only expect Normal, Codom snow, Dom snow. IMO Super snow souldn't happen onless there's some type of gene conversion going on.


Why would there need to be "gene conversion"?

It's pretty simple: TUG snow and Mack snow exist on the same gene pair; they are alleles of the "Snow Complex locus". TUG snow is dominant to normal (homozygous looks the same as heterozygous) while Mack Snow is codominant to normal (homozygous is different to heterozygous). But that doesn't describe how TUG and Mack behave together... and if you get animals that are "super snows" ... it shows that TUG and Mack are codominant *to each other*. 

A "super snow" from that pairing is het TUG, het Mack.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Why would there need to be "gene conversion"?
> 
> It's pretty simple: TUG snow and Mack snow exist on the same gene pair; they are alleles of the "Snow Complex locus". TUG snow is dominant to normal (homozygous looks the same as heterozygous) while Mack Snow is codominant to normal (homozygous is different to heterozygous). But that doesn't describe how TUG and Mack behave together... and if you get animals that are "super snows" ... it shows that TUG and Mack are codominant *to each other*.
> 
> A "super snow" from that pairing is het TUG, het Mack.


This is my view on it too. It's the only possibility that makes sense. And it makes perfect sense. 
Very nicely put too.


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

pigglywiggly said:


> i bred tug snow to tug hypo snow last year and not all of the babies hatched black and white like you`d expect,
> but they matured into tug snows and tug hypo snows, so leo in the top picture might white out yet.


Can i ask, did you breed the "TUG snow" offspring back to a TUG?
If not how do you know they were TUG


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> Why would there need to be "gene conversion"?
> 
> It's pretty simple: TUG snow and Mack snow exist on the same gene pair; they are alleles of the "Snow Complex locus". TUG snow is dominant to normal (homozygous looks the same as heterozygous) while Mack Snow is codominant to normal (homozygous is different to heterozygous). But that doesn't describe how TUG and Mack behave together... and if you get animals that are "super snows" ... it shows that TUG and Mack are codominant *to each other*.
> 
> A "super snow" from that pairing is het TUG, het Mack.


May well be the case but like i said, What's going on at presant is all just theory. I get that a (HET)Dom snow X (HET)Codom snow, Could give Super snow with the Two (HET)'s making a whole. But what about a (HOM)Dom snow X (HET)Codom snow = ????.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

gazz said:


> May well be the case but like i said, What's going on at presant is all just theory. I get that a (HET)Dom snow X (HET)Codom snow, Could give Super snow with the Two (HET)'s making a whole. But what about a (HOM)Dom snow X (HET)Codom snow = ????.


I would assume 50% super snow (het TUG het Mack) and 50% TUG snow (het TUG).


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

MrMike said:


> I would assume 50% super snow (het TUG het Mack) and 50% TUG snow (het TUG).


So to prove or disprove my thoery, What i need is a Super snow from a Codom/Dom breeding breed it to a [2C]Snow, Then the offspring should be super snow and [1C]Snow, Then if i breed the [1C]Snows together, I should only get Normal and [1C]Snow offspring and get NO Super snow offspring. However if i get Super snow offspring that would give a little more leway to my thoery Codom snow X Dom snow= Normal, Codom snow, Super snow.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

gazz said:


> So to prove or disprove my thoery, What i need is a Super snow from a Codom/Dom breeding breed it to a [2C]Snow, Then the offspring should be super snow and [1C]Snow,


If I'm understanding it right, you're suggesting breeding:

Mack / TUG "super snow" ("codom/dom breeding super snow" ?)
to a
Homozygous TUG snow ("[2C] Snow")

You would expect, if the genes are allelic, to get:

Mack/TUG super snows
Homozygous TUG snows.

No normals, no single-copy snows of any flavour (TUG or Mack). There's no normal-not-mutant gene to give if you've got one parent who is homozygous mutant, and one parent who is het for one mutant and het for another one.

Punnett would be (Mack/TUG down the side, using *S *for normal-not-snow, *St *for TUG and *Sm *for Mack)

----------- TUG *St* ----- TUG *St*
Mack *Sm* --- St/Sm ------ St/Sm
TUG *St* ---- St/St ------ St/St

*St/Sm* would be Mack/Tug Super Snow
*St/St* would be homozygous TUG Snow

Note that neither parent has "S" to give.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> If I'm understanding it right, you're suggesting breeding:
> 
> Mack / TUG "super snow" ("codom/dom breeding super snow" ?)
> to a
> ...


That right, Then to deffo confirm would be to breed the Homozygous TUG snows together. Then if your right there will be NO super snow offspring as the Codominant influance wouldn't have pass on. However if i do get a Super snow offspring then not all the snow offspring was Dominant TUG snow, coz to get a Super snow you need at least one Codominant Mack snow.


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

sam12345 said:


> Can i ask, did you breed the "TUG snow" offspring back to a TUG?
> If not how do you know they were TUG


pigglywiggly says that the parents were both TUG snow. So why would she need to breed anything back? All babies will be TUG snow? She didn't cross into a mack line?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

nuttybabez said:


> pigglywiggly says that the parents were both TUG snow. So why would she need to breed anything back? All babies will be TUG snow? She didn't cross into a mack line?


If both parents were TUG snow they could have been heterozygous TUG snow - and can produce the following three genotypes:

Normal (inherited not-Snow from both parents)
TUG Snow (inherited one copy of TUG and one copy of not-Snow)
Homozygous TUG Snow (Inherited TUG from both parents)

Not all babies will be TUGs - there's a 25% chance per offspring of normal.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

they are both hetero, as out of 6 hatchlings one was normal, with 5 tugsnows and hypo tugsnows.
only one hatched black and white, the other 5 looked like likenormals, deveopled the snow over a few weeks.

i dont mix my mack and tugs

and they are definatly tug snows, the person i bought them from imported the parents directly from the urban gecko.

i only kept this one back, and will be breeding from her next year.


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

Its getting far too complicated for me now so I am going to bow out here. Technical genetics just baffle my small brain.


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