# A Question about bioactive substrate...



## MichaelT (Jan 14, 2012)

One thing i dont understand about bio active substrate, will a leopard gecko be tempted to eat a woodlice or another bug that cleans the cage. if so if that bugs been eating the lizards poo, surely this is a bad thing? and can you introduce woodlice and springtails into any loose substrate with the same good effect? (cleaness wise)


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## MichaelT (Jan 14, 2012)

bump.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

It wont work,these type of animals need damp conditions to survive,Leopard Geckos like it dry.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

colinm said:


> It wont work,these type of animals need damp conditions to survive,Leopard Geckos like it dry.


Yeah, I'm afraid the humidity you'd need for it to be effective would be too high for the geckos. I use it in my plated lizard tank, as that has drier and damper areas, but plated lizards don't need the same ultra-low humidity as leos.


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## UKCrestie (Sep 9, 2011)

Habitat section is better for that question mate.
But in general bugs in the wild eat all sorts of stuff, excrement being one of them - its organic so isnt a problem.
I dont have Leos at the minute but do have bio-substrate for some of my cresties.
A tiny group of woodlice and springtails I bought in exploded into a good sized population over a couple of months and they do a good job of cleaning up.
Worms are also good at decomposing/recycling any oganic matter left in the soil. Not sure how they would work in a 'dry' enclosure though.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

UKCrestie said:


> Habitat section is better for that question mate.
> But in general bugs in the wild eat all sorts of stuff, excrement being one of them - its organic so isnt a problem.
> I dont have Leos at the minute but do have bio-substrate for some of my cresties.
> A tiny group of woodlice and springtails I bought in exploded into a good sized population over a couple of months and they do a good job of cleaning up.
> Worms are also good at decomposing/recycling any oganic matter left in the soil. *Not sure how they would work in a 'dry' enclosure though.*


They wouldn't, but in damper ones, the type found in compost bins do better than earthworms, as they can take higher temps.


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## MichaelT (Jan 14, 2012)

Ok cheers for your replys according to the bioactive substate users on here on there website it states you can use it with leos which puzzled me when they dont live in leaves,compost etc


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

MichaelT said:


> Ok cheers for your replys according to the bioactive substate users on here on there website it states you can use it with leos which puzzled me when they dont live in leaves,compost etc


There may well be suitable invertebrates for a dry viv- not sure what they'd be, though. Maybe dermestid beetles? I've introduced these to dryer vivs by accident with crickets, and they do seem to be quite efficient scavengers.


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## MichaelT (Jan 14, 2012)

would those be irrattating to my leopard gecko?


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

colinm said:


> It wont work,these type of animals need damp conditions to survive,Leopard Geckos like it dry.


You say this with certainty. Obviously without any experience on the subject. Leos do like it dry. However they also need sublevel humidity. Deep substrate allows for a large humidty gradient. The insects that need high humidity will stick to the lower humidified levels and will surface to feed. Other insects that do not need as much humidity will stick to the higher levels. Geckos will stay on the dryer surface and burrow when they need a humid environment.

The insect life does not affect the geckos in any way.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I say it with great certainty as I have kept Leopard Geckos and keep Dartfrogs.They work with Dartfrogs because they live in damp humid areas.Most people keep Leopard Geckos on dry substrates with humid hide boxes so thats why I dont think that it will work.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

MichaelT said:


> would those be irrattating to my leopard gecko?


Certainly doesn't seem to bother my plated.



Gregg M said:


> You say this with certainty. Obviously without any experience on the subject. Leos do like it dry. However they also need sublevel humidity. Deep substrate allows for a large humidty gradient. The insects that need high humidity will stick to the lower humidified levels and will surface to feed. Other insects that do not need as much humidity will stick to the higher levels. Geckos will stay on the dryer surface and burrow when they need a humid environment.
> 
> The insect life does not affect the geckos in any way.


 


colinm said:


> I say it with great certainty as I have kept Leopard Geckos and keep Dartfrogs.They work with Dartfrogs because they live in damp humid areas.Most people keep Leopard Geckos on dry substrates with humid hide boxes so thats why I dont think that it will work.


I have to agree with Colin on this one; I know people provide damp retreats for leos, but the woodlice and springtails, if they survive at all, will tend to stick to the damp areas and avoid the dry ones- which rather defeats the object, if you want them to clean the viv. This is why I mentioned dermestids- as I said, I introduced these by accident, but they do seem to be quite efficient scavengers, and given that they are often found in ultra-dry museum cases, the lack of humidity wouldn't be a problem.


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## MichaelT (Jan 14, 2012)

I will give those ago once i get my new substrate 

thanks for your replys: victory:


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Ron Magpie said:


> I have to agree with Colin on this one; I know people provide damp retreats for leos, but the woodlice and springtails, if they survive at all, will tend to stick to the damp areas and avoid the dry ones- which rather defeats the object, if you want them to clean the viv. This is why I mentioned dermestids- as I said, I introduced these by accident, but they do seem to be quite efficient scavengers, and given that they are often found in ultra-dry museum cases, the lack of humidity wouldn't be a problem.


I have a large natural set up for leos. Wood lice/isopods are in the soil. They do suface to get meals. They are also needed in the sublayers to keep things clean down there as well. Dermestids are also in there. I really need to get a vid up to show you all what a proper substrate looks like and acts like.

We also have super worm and meal worms in the soil along with the beetles. 

I just cant see how you can say with certainty that something will not work when it has been working for years. Again, if you do not have experience in the subject, you may want to learn about it instead of guessing if it will work or not.


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

To gregg i will say cudos for trying to change british herpetoculture... 

for you other two... 

Try it before you knock it... 

a traditional set up wont work with worms because as you say to dry... 

The deeper you go the damper things get... 

But a correctly balanced set up i.e a deep substrate... damp deep down dry on top...


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Personally I dont see the fascination with bioactive substrates for everything,surely its easier to clean the crap out once or twice a week rather than let your animals have the possibility of eating feeders that have fed on their crap?


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

colinm said:


> Personally I dont see the fascination with bioactive substrates for everything,surely its easier to clean the crap out once or twice a week rather than let your animals have the possibility of eating feeders that have fed on their crap?


It is not about the fascination. It is about providing you reptile with the best possible set up you can offer in captivity. The benefits are numerous. And why do people keep bringing up this thing about feeders eating fecal matter? So what if a bug eats fecal matter and then gets eaten? Is your gecko going to catch a disease from itself? Where is the danger? What is the risk? Do you think for a second that the feeders you give your reptiles are not eating fecal matter anyway?

What can be easier than not ever having to clean up after your reptile?

This is exactly what I mean when people listen to caresheets and scare mongering from people who do not have any experience on the actual topic.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Everyone already knows my thoughts on this, same questions, same answers and funny enough the same people answering, same points raised on both sides...


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Gregg M said:


> itself? Where is the danger? What is the risk? Do you think for a second that the feeders you give your reptiles are not eating fecal matter anyway?
> 
> What can be easier than not ever having to clean up after your reptile?


My feeder insects dont get fed any reptile fecal matter.They are kept separately until feeding time and then introduced to the vivarium.There is the chance that if they are not eaten straight away they will eat something in the vivarium but then they are likely to feed on the plants more than anything.

To carry this to the conclusion you might as well introduce roaches to the vivarium as they will clean up better than any other feeder animals.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Greg I dont know where you are based in the States but do any keepers keep Leopard Geckos outdoors?

I ask this in all seriousness as it has come up on other forums that I have joined dedicated to keeping herps in natural conditions and some of the American keepers have asked this.From what I can ascertain the it wouldn`t be too difficult to recreate the natural conditions in some of the western and southern parts of the U.S.A.Obviously it wouldn`t be worth it on a commercial scale but in a hobby situation it could work.

I keep some western Asian lacertids outdoors and have always thought that if we had a more continental type climate here with longer hotter summers and colder drier winters they could be kept here.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Like greg has said bio active substrates can work with leos, although you are limited to what organisms will survives, deermisted beetles, mealworms, other worm species and woodlice will tolerate the dry conditions so long as areas are kept humid. Springtails wont survive through. 

Im actually working on culturing desert based inverts for just such occasions and will let you guys know if I am successful. 

A majority of my vivs are bio active, far healthy and fresher then anything else, along with being far more natrual whilst stimulating better and varied hunting behaviors. 

jay


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## kirky1980 (Apr 4, 2010)

same s**t different day lol give it a go guys you never know you might like it, i know all your geckos will


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Nice attitude.


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## MichaelT (Jan 14, 2012)

Spikebrit said:


> Like greg has said bio active substrates can work with leos, although you are limited to what organisms will survives, deermisted beetles, mealworms, other worm species and woodlice will tolerate the dry conditions so long as areas are kept humid. Springtails wont survive through.
> 
> Im actually working on culturing desert based inverts for just such occasions and will let you guys know if I am successful.
> 
> ...


I'd Like to know how you get on : victory:


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