# DWA Vet inspection



## Docxx (Aug 25, 2018)

Hey guys, I've been keeping various inverts for some time now and I'm in a position to be able to afford a DWAL (cheap in my Council). I'm aware of the procedure to acquire one but what I don't know is the details of the Vet inspection, particularity for Inverts. 

What would they expect from me for Hot Inverts? Room Security etc. I'm assuming an escape proof room, do they expect double entrance? Light switch outside room?

Thanks for answering.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Docxx said:


> Hey guys, I've been keeping various inverts for some time now and I'm in a position to be able to afford a DWAL (cheap in my Council). I'm aware of the procedure to acquire one but what I don't know is the details of the Vet inspection, particularity for Inverts.
> 
> What would they expect from me for Hot Inverts? Room Security etc. I'm assuming an escape proof room, do they expect double entrance? Light switch outside room?
> 
> Thanks for answering.


The only way to get a relevant answer is to contact your council. There are no national standards. Each council is different.


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

Docxx said:


> Hey guys, I've been keeping various inverts for some time now and I'm in a position to be able to afford a DWAL (cheap in my Council). I'm aware of the procedure to acquire one but what I don't know is the details of the Vet inspection, particularity for Inverts.
> 
> What would they expect from me for Hot Inverts? Room Security etc. I'm assuming an escape proof room, do they expect double entrance? Light switch outside room?
> 
> Thanks for answering.


As Ian put. Contact your local council. All my council seemed to want was the inverts where kept double housed. So their enclosure within a larger locked enclosure. 

Some don't even require that but there'll probably be those that what to see an invert Alcatraz.


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## Docxx (Aug 25, 2018)

Thanks for the responses guys. I'm having difficulty getting information about their requirements from my local Authority, they really have no clue. I think they just leave it up to the Vet. I'll try and contact the Vet they use.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Docxx said:


> Thanks for the responses guys. I'm having difficulty getting information about their requirements from my local Authority, they really have no clue. I think they just leave it up to the Vet. I'll try and contact the Vet they use.


Who is your Local Authority? I think if you contact the Vet directly, s/he will just refer you back to the Council.


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## Docxx (Aug 25, 2018)

Shellsfeathers&fur said:


> Who is your Local Authority? I think if you contact the Vet directly, s/he will just refer you back to the Council.


North Devon Council, on searching today they have no DWA licenses issued so that might explain why they have no idea. Its only £71 for a 2 year license, I'm assuming the Vet bill will be £150 - £250 as they charge by the hour and its only for inverts. Its frustrating because I don't want to go ahead with the inspection and fail, I would still need to pay. I might email them and be a bit more forceful.


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

Docxx said:


> North Devon Council, on searching today they have no DWA licenses issued so that might explain why they have no idea. Its only £71 for a 2 year license, I'm assuming the Vet bill will be £150 - £250 as they charge by the hour and its only for inverts. Its frustrating because I don't want to go ahead with the inspection and fail, I would still need to pay. I might email them and be a bit more forceful.


Aye email them again and politely ask them to contact the vet and get back to you regarding the requirements. Pointless going any further until you know what they're after. No point spending loads of security that really is not needed.


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## robsgotballs1967 (Feb 17, 2018)

which inverts do you have that require a DWA license?


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## Docxx (Aug 25, 2018)

robsgotballs1967 said:


> which inverts do you have that require a DWA license?


None yet, otherwise I would be breaking the law. I want to get Latrodectus sp., Atrax robustus and some Buthidae Scorpions.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Haha, you are experiencing why the DWA Act is a complete failure. It ranges from total inconsistency where those in charge don't have a clue about what to ask of applicants, to the most ridiculous requirements imaginable that aren't achievable for anybody without random pots of money sitting around. This is why 99% of keepers are non-compliant - and that figure isn't plucked out of thin air, it is published from a 2009 (?) study.

Repeal and replace.


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## Docxx (Aug 25, 2018)

ViperLover said:


> Haha, you are experiencing why the DWA Act is a complete failure. It ranges from total inconsistency where those in charge don't have a clue about what to ask of applicants, to the most ridiculous requirements imaginable that aren't achievable for anybody without random pots of money sitting around. This is why 99% of keepers are non-compliant - and that figure isn't plucked out of thin air, it is published from a 2009 (?) study.
> 
> Repeal and replace.


Oh I totally agree, its ridiculous. Not saying I would ever be 'non-compliant', but I can see why people would do it. I would rather attempt to get a DWAL while I'm fortunate to live somewhere where it is reasonably priced. But if they demand I build Fort Knox in my house.. well I think I'd rather take the risk, especially just for Inverts.


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## rogersspider2007 (Apr 2, 2007)

for inverts i would put there enclosures inside a larger enclosure with a suitable lock, that would be enough to satisfy the vet.


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## parabuthus (Mar 9, 2012)

I remember going through all this guess work when I applied for my Invert hot room, not easy. Your unlikely to get any solid answers from the council or the vets, they will want you to think about all the health and safety issues.

Basically I worked up my own Risk assessments, room layouts, vivarium diagrams, emergency contact details etc…just made it plain and simple for them so they could look at it beforehand. I emailed it the to the vets and council and they loved it! Mainly because they could immediately see if it ticked the boxes and could see any potential issues.

It’s changed now but I still have all the docs I submitted that got me my licence. PM me if want a copy.


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## rogersspider2007 (Apr 2, 2007)

parabuthus said:


> I remember going through all this guess work when I applied for my Invert hot room, not easy. Your unlikely to get any solid answers from the council or the vets, they will want you to think about all the health and safety issues.
> 
> Basically I worked up my own Risk assessments, room layouts, vivarium diagrams, emergency contact details etc…just made it plain and simple for them so they could look at it beforehand. I emailed it the to the vets and council and they loved it! Mainly because they could immediately see if it ticked the boxes and could see any potential issues.
> 
> It’s changed now but I still have all the docs I submitted that got me my licence. PM me if want a copy.


i forgot about the room layout etc, I've been out the dwa game for 5 or 6 years now and now getting back into it once my room has been sorted.


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## Docxx (Aug 25, 2018)

parabuthus said:


> I remember going through all this guess work when I applied for my Invert hot room, not easy. Your unlikely to get any solid answers from the council or the vets, they will want you to think about all the health and safety issues.
> 
> Basically I worked up my own Risk assessments, room layouts, vivarium diagrams, emergency contact details etc…just made it plain and simple for them so they could look at it beforehand. I emailed it the to the vets and council and they loved it! Mainly because they could immediately see if it ticked the boxes and could see any potential issues.
> 
> It’s changed now but I still have all the docs I submitted that got me my licence. PM me if want a copy.


Thanks, this was useful information. I'm all Health and safety trained so I'm pretty happy doing the risk assessments and assumed I would need to do something similar. Still not had hard information from the council but I'll keep trying. I'll PM you for the paperwork, even if its just as a guide it will be helpful. :2thumb:


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

James, each and every time someone asks for advice you reply with the same response. 

In any aspect of life there are rules and laws that you may agree with and others you do not - *the fact you disagree with them does not mean you should flout them or openly encourage others to flout them.*

Although I acknowledge that the process of applying for a DWA is not ideal and could be improved upon greatly and that the risk to the general public is small - so small as to almost be non existent that is not the point - the general public have a right to go about their business safe in the knowledge that should an individual wish to keep these invertebrates they are compliant with the law and have been suitably inspected.

Lets suppose for a moment that the law makers were to engage with the DWA keeping community in an attempt to improve and standardize the licensing process - what sort of impression would we project and respect would we gain if our most vocal members of our community (you yourself have stated in the past that the most experienced and respected of keepers tend to avoid the general community) was actively encouraging people to break the law? Not really the basis for a great symbiotic relationship is it? 

Please in a publically accessible forum, *STOP* with this constant disdain for the law. Would you or do you, encourage people to break other aspects of the law simply because you do not agree with it? 

As the law is not up for debate (particularly those relation to keeping DWA listed species) none of the above questions require a reply on your part. 

I would however like a response to this question, please provide a link to this article which states that 99% of people keeping DWA species are doing so unlicensed. 



ViperLover said:


> Haha, you are experiencing why the DWA Act is a complete failure. It ranges from total inconsistency where those in charge don't have a clue about what to ask of applicants, to the most ridiculous requirements imaginable that aren't achievable for anybody without random pots of money sitting around. This is why 99% of keepers are non-compliant - and that figure isn't plucked out of thin air, it is published from a 2009 (?) study.
> 
> Repeal and replace.


 
James does not represent the hobby - not even the DWA aspect of it - and he has no right to encourage you (not that I am saying you would be influenced by him) to break the law. Even if he was a representative of this hobby - how could you take him seriously when he actively encourages you to break the law?



Docxx said:


> Oh I totally agree, its ridiculous. Not saying I would ever be 'non-compliant', but I can see why people would do it. I would rather attempt to get a DWAL while I'm fortunate to live somewhere where it is reasonably priced. But if they demand I build Fort Knox in my house.. well I think I'd rather take the risk, especially just for Inverts.


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## Docxx (Aug 25, 2018)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> James, each and every time someone asks for advice you reply with the same response.
> 
> In any aspect of life there are rules and laws that you may agree with and others you do not - *the fact you disagree with them does not mean you should flout them or openly encourage others to flout them.*
> 
> ...


Oh I agree that the law should be followed, hence why I am here asking for advice and trying my best to get a DWAL and follow the law. But I can see why people don't get a DWAL for their Hot species. So far my experience has not been great and I've not even started the process, just trying to get information is like getting blood out of a stone. I am in no way advocating breaking the law but I can see how people think the effort outweighs the risk of getting caught. I've had 2 friends offer me Hot Scorpions and I've refused both so far. I want a DWAL so I don't have to worry, so my family doesn't have to worry. I'll also share my experience in getting a DWAL here.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

:notworthy: to you and I can see how it would be easy to be tempted.

I think as a complete outsider, the reason for this uncertainty and seemingly lack of progress is due to the fact that this is such an uncommon request - your local council may not deal with these requests from one year to the next. 

Maybe arrange a face to face appointment with your council - I would think it would be the licensing team you would need to speak with - a) so that you have a point of contact and b) so that they know you are serious.

Yes, please do share your experiences of applying for and the actual inspection process as I think it would be extremely interesting and useful. 



Docxx said:


> Oh I agree that the law should be followed, hence why I am here asking for advice and trying my best to get a DWAL and follow the law. But I can see why people don't get a DWAL for their Hot species. So far my experience has not been great and I've not even started the process, just trying to get information is like getting blood out of a stone. I am in no way advocating breaking the law but I can see how people think the effort outweighs the risk of getting caught. I've had 2 friends offer me Hot Scorpions and I've refused both so far. I want a DWAL so I don't have to worry, so my family doesn't have to worry. I'll also share my experience in getting a DWAL here.


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## Docxx (Aug 25, 2018)

Finally a little bit off progress. They were unwilling to give me contact details for the vet that does the inspection but the gentleman I spoke to who normally deals with DWAL told me they would just normally expect Inverts to be kept in usual enclosures secured within a lockable cabinet of some sort, and procedure in the case of envenomation to be available etc.

He did say if I forward list of species I intend on keeping he would endeavor to find the exact requirements. Not the perfect response but we're getting closer.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

This is some decent progress - at least you now have a point of contact and that they do have some precedence for these requests.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> James, each and every time someone asks for advice you reply with the same response.
> 
> In any aspect of life there are rules and laws that you may agree with and others you do not - *the fact you disagree with them does not mean you should flout them or openly encourage others to flout them.*
> 
> ...


Fraser, I say this as respectfully as I possibly can: You're talking crap.
Where have I openly encouraged anybody to break the law? You have made this up out of thin air and I have a problem with it, so whether you like it or not, this is my response - I know you said that you didn't want one, but when you make things up, you don't get to decide if a response is justified. 

*I do not condone breaking the law.* I never have condoned it and I never will. I simply highlighted how the system is flawed and this is a reason why people go underground. At the time of writing, I was pretty sure the OP has at least a dozen brain cells so could figure out the point I was alluding to. It seems I was correct.

No, I will not stop criticising this particular law when it is unjust, based on very little evidence (for some species) and doesn't achieve anything. We live in a democracy, we have a right to criticise authority and not doing so is irresponsible when it is justified. 

I am using a new computer and most of my sources are on the old hard-drive, so unfortunately I cannot provide a link to support the quoted statistic. What I can provide is a Parliamentary publication which cites that non-compliance for the DWAA is high.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmenvfru/984/98408.htm

The Act is a failure. If you accept it, nothing will be done about it. If you protest against it, you may actually achieve something that benefits us all.


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