# WC... any difference.



## Reece (Jan 10, 2009)

I have seen a couple of people say they stay away from WC animals. Just wondering if there is actualy a difference between say a WC salamander and a CB salamander Sub Adult? or if its just a preference for a CB? not sure where to post this so if its in the wrong place im sorry.


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## SpiderGirl33 (Sep 2, 2007)

I don't know about snakes or lizards, but whenever I've bought WC spiders, they have mites and usually a couple of injuries. I remember my sister bought a WC snake, she was told it was CB but it was riddled with mites, and died from internal parasites. 
If you buy CB from a breeder you can get the history of the animal, if it's WC you don't know anything about it, it could be carrying all sorts of diseases, parasites or could be gravid.

Like I said, I don't really know about reptiles, but I hope I've been of some help. : victory:


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## Reece (Jan 10, 2009)

oh i see, ok thanks alot for the reply. Is the only way to know if it has parasites or anything to take a crap sample to the vets to get it tested? Thanks alot.


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## Erinaceinae (Mar 26, 2007)

WC normally have physical problems, and may be more "wild" and harder to tame. they may be used to a different diet we can provide them with. a different climate. a much larger territory. they can get very stressed out and die or stop eating from the stress of all these changes. and the travel to get from the wild to you.
they also regularly many parasites and nasty things that can be passed to your current collection.

there are also ethical issues - is it sustainable to remove them from the wild when we CAN captive breed them. is it fair on the animal?

basically, IMO, CB is the only option, unless you buy a rare species WC and won't just keep it as a pet, but breed it to make sure less in the future have to be taken from the wild

not sure how much of that applies to salamanders, but thats a (my) general view


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## Lizard Loft (Mar 1, 2008)

WC animals in my experience are alot skittier, stress very easily, some do tame down and become perfectly good pets, but these animals will have come over in packed crates, for 100's maybe even 1000's of miles, experiencing all sorts of temperature fluctuations, sounds etc, they will have likely been cramped into a crate with say around 10 other animals (same species) and most of which (7/10) will be dead and the others barely alive. 

this migt sound like an extreme case but it happens on a regular basis, some of the videos i have seen are just horrible, and then finding out the people who put them in these conditions only get a small fine or less then a month in jail is the worst bit 

Rant over phew! lol


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## Reece (Jan 10, 2009)

Ok thanks alot. Just i have seen a couple of salamanders for sale, but they are all WC. i really want one and have done for a while but im worried about having a WC sub/adult male. i have got the right housing for it but dont want to get one for it to be ill or die within days / weeks. if i was to get one would the best bet to take a crap sample to the rep vet and let them test it? or just not buy the WC animal?


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## STReptiles (Feb 6, 2009)

just dont buy wild caught unless you absolutely have to


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## IanF94 (Oct 12, 2008)

Yep, see if you check out Dartfrog, they might not all be CB but at least some are. I think the whole idea of keeping these animals is to Conserve them by taking the strain of the wild populations and buying WC won't help.


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## Reece (Jan 10, 2009)

ok thanks. i just cant find any CB tiger salamanders thats the thing and i read somewhere that there isnt many breeders that actualy do breed these types of animals. so i guess WC is one of the only options for them. ive checked tons of rep websites and stuff and no luck.


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## STReptiles (Feb 6, 2009)

ah i cant imagine salamanders being to bad but i wouldnt pay a high price for them if i was you.


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## Reece (Jan 10, 2009)

ok thanks. i found them for about £30. is that good price for one?


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

IanF94 said:


> Yep, see if you check out Dartfrog, they might not all be CB but at least some are. I think the whole idea of keeping these animals is to Conserve them by taking the strain of the wild populations and buying WC won't help.


 on the contrary.... WC animals are essential in topping up bloodlines in CB stock, otherwise you end up with reptiles that live in trailers lovingly emblazoned with confederate flags. so in closing.... WC animals should never be purchased as a money saver, and should only be for captive breeding purposes. there really are lots of species that arent bred in captivity, in fact this year i am starting a breeding project for Diadophis punctatus and hope that through a few WC examples i'll be able to offer good CB stock. Dave.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

wild caught salamanders are perfectly fine. most salamanders are wild caught. never fret about wc salamanders... i dare say that hardly anyone really keeps salamanders at all except some common petshop types.

a healthy slimy salamander or a long tailed whether wild caught or whatever still looks and acts the same.... you can't transfer snake and lizard stuff to salamanders.... most folks just keep tigers and the like. i challenge anyone to tell the difference between a cb dusky and a wc dusky.... with salamanders mostly you have to be concerned about keeping them right.... it's just as easy to kill a cb as it is a wc....

real salamanders are rarely kept by most.... they just go for the kiddie salamanders... i used to keep many species of local salamanders and they only cared about good conditions.... mine always thrived and were wc.


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## carliz (Jan 22, 2009)

*my thoughts*

are its cruel to be still taking wc wild captured snakes ,but its things like CRYPTOSPORIDIUM , WHICH ARE IMMUNE TO dissinfectant or anti biotics ect which was getting rare in cb , also like some one put youve to change there life style ect ect dead mice just to get another morph , weve enough snakes for sale as it is infact any animal lizard what ever theres no need


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

several species of salamander are a pain is the posteria to breed in captivity, tigers being the most well know while other species are almost impossible and many are very hard to do.

basically there have been a grand total of TWO known indoor natural (no hormones used) tiger salamander breedings one in the USA and one in Japan. it is possible to breed them outdoors in large enclosures with ponds and the like but even this is very hit or miss and you could use hormones but this is expensive and not entirely safe. 

tigers take well to captivity i have a female WC and she does fine. if its a fresh import i would advise you get it looked over by a vet and a fecal sample given but otherwise there eating machines that as long as the set-up is right can become very fun and friendly animals.

were possible i would say CB is the way to go but in some cases (like tiger salamanders) where breeding in captivty is severly limited and aslong as its a species that does well in captvity (and its not endangered) then i dont see a massive issue.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Moshpitviper said:


> on the contrary.... WC animals are essential in topping up bloodlines in CB stock, otherwise you end up with reptiles that live in trailers lovingly emblazoned with confederate flags. so in closing.... WC animals should never be purchased as a money saver, and should only be for captive breeding purposes. there really are lots of species that arent bred in captivity, in fact this year i am starting a breeding project for Diadophis punctatus and hope that through a few WC examples i'll be able to offer good CB stock. Dave.


 
you're talking ringnecks.... yep, they are one of my favorites...

i just have northern ringnecks here.... but nice ones!:2thumb:


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

HABU said:


> you're talking ringnecks.... yep, they are one of my favorites...
> 
> i just have northern ringnecks here.... but nice ones!:2thumb:


 Indeed I am mate.... it boggles the mind that these beautiful snakes don't get a look in over here. have found a supplier and am buying about 15 or 20 to start CB stock over here. I have been fascinated by them since day 1 of keeping.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Moshpitviper said:


> Indeed I am mate.... it boggles the mind that these beautiful snakes don't get a look in over here. have found a supplier and am buying about 15 or 20 to start CB stock over here. I have been fascinated by them since day 1 of keeping.


my friend, we must be kindred spirits because no one pays attention to these wonderful things... ringnecks are small, granted but they have style, grace and just plain class!... i get laughed at for saying that i'm hunting for ringnecks.... they are the second most common snake around me... the only one besides a red belly that i can guarantee to find in 10 minutes or less....
here's one from my woods right next to me.... i'm ate up with them and the ones from right here are one of the finest looking and easiest to keep... beware of southern ringsnakes.... they are the most common in shops for some reason.... but they are very diet-specific... these here like the one in my hand eat the right things.


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## Sprocket (Apr 21, 2008)

Wow Lovely solid yellow underside !, any idea of what age that one is ?


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## Horny Toad (Sep 9, 2006)

WC Corn snakes, leopard geckos and other commonly bred species is morally incorrect and should be frowned upon. But, never become a hypocrite - as even these animals had to have some taken from the wild years ago to get to the CB point we now enjoy. Same for Gerbils, Hamsters etc. All were originally running around in the wild. Are we saying it was okay in the past to have taken those from the wild, allowing us this false feeling of correctness nowadays? Are we (as hobbyists) taking away the benefits for future keepers that we enjoy with Corns and leopards?

WC species that are rarely or not bred enough to support the demand by us, the hobbyists, is morally fine. In areas where the animals originate from, if there was no trade (ie no money to be made from the animals by the locals) they would sell the land to oil companies, over farm it, slash and burn it, etc etc. these people are often very poor - and unless there is a value to the animl they wont care about it. Hence why CITES was set up - it recognises the postive affect trade with animals on conservation. Its an essential part of protecting animals from, unfortunately, us - human beings. CITES stands for the Control In Trade of Endangared Species - it places quotas on what is allowed to be collected to stop over collecting, and takes into account the (large) benefits of the trade in animals in relation to conservation.

WC animals are often totally free from any ailments. Most of the videos and photos banded about are very old, so even claims of mistreatment are not valid. Things have improved since those days. The ones suffering with ailments have easily treated ailments (usually worms, mites, protazoa) and are quickly sorted in the right hands. CB, on the other hand seems to be rife with ailments either not seen at all or rarely in the wild - and to make it worse with problems that are difficult to treat. Adeno virus, IBD, Crypto (this is a rarely found problem in wild snakes - now associated with stress levels in private and zoo collections) are very difficult to treat and are now common place when dealing with CB animals. 

Just another view point. And I would have no problems with WC salamanders. Rarely seen any problems with them. Good luck.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Sprocket said:


> Wow Lovely solid yellow underside !, any idea of what age that one is ?


young adult... not old but almost full sized...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

v-max said:


> WC Corn snakes, leopard geckos and other commonly bred species is morally incorrect and should be frowned upon. But, never become a hypocrite - as even these animals had to have some taken from the wild years ago to get to the CB point we now enjoy. Same for Gerbils, Hamsters etc. All were originally running around in the wild. Are we saying it was okay in the past to have taken those from the wild, allowing us this false feeling of correctness nowadays? Are we (as hobbyists) taking away the benefits for future keepers that we enjoy with Corns and leopards?
> 
> WC species that are rarely or not bred enough to support the demand by us, the hobbyists, is morally fine. In areas where the animals originate from, if there was no trade (ie no money to be made from the animals by the locals) they would sell the land to oil companies, over farm it, slash and burn it, etc etc. these people are often very poor - and unless there is a value to the animl they wont care about it. Hence why CITES was set up - it recognises the postive affect trade with animals on conservation. Its an essential part of protecting animals from, unfortunately, us - human beings. CITES stands for the Control In Trade of Endangared Species - it places quotas on what is allowed to be collected to stop over collecting, and takes into account the (large) benefits of the trade in animals in relation to conservation.
> 
> ...


 i have on only a couple occasions ever caught a wild snake or lizard that was less than healthy. stress from improper holding of herps causes the most problems... most of this crap about parasites is simply because most herps are nomads and although they have parasites, they take a dump and move on to another local. the thing is that we tend to catch them and just hold them until they get sold to a distributor. they often end up stressed, dehydrated, starved and have to live in their own poo for a while by many importers.... they end up weak and stuck in their own poo which is where most pathogens are shed as part of the parasite's life cycle... what really happens is that wc animals many times end up weakened and since their nomadic tendencies are gone, because they are trapped in a room and have to poo right wheree they are stuck.... they get re-infested with parasites over and over again until the pathogens reach an unatural level and have the opportunity to overwhelm their host... and as we all know, killing your host isn't the best thing to do.

a fresh import, perfectly un-stressed and feeding will have parasites but.... they won't make the animal sick or dead. it's wrong to stress out a wild snake and take it to the brink... if nothing else the parasites will take hold and that's bad... could kill it...

but if a snake or whatever has the natural parasite load it can often live a long, healthy life with no issues...


it's never wise to keep snakes that are wc with your cb's.... not good at all. but just because something is wild doesn't mean that the poor guy is through booking.... that's all i'm saying.


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## IanF94 (Oct 12, 2008)

I understand what you're all saying and agree in some cases WC is alright and occasionally neccasary. It's just my opinion that animals such as Salamanders, who are very neccasary in their enviroment as an indicator species, shouldn't be taken so lightly regardless of how hard they are to breed. 
I'm not saying you shouldn't take ANY animal from their enviroment, it's really an individual's decision and as long as they can take care of them it seems morally alright to me. I'm simply against Mass collection, a Team of people going out and collecting hundreds of Salamanders, making a huge dent in the population of that area. Unfotunately that's how most Salamanders are caught for the Pet trade.
HABU you live in an area full of them so I could see why you keep them, I would too.:lol2:
But like I said I'm against it when mass collection takes place and rare species are practically wiped out. 2 or 3's fine but 150 is not in my opinion.


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## Reece (Jan 10, 2009)

thanks for the replies. thats what im worries about, it being ill or too stressed when i get it. Someone said about having the right enclosure, is this ok...

a 64L RUB which is 2 foot long and 13 inches high. 4 inches of soil with 3/4 covered in moss. a big water dish and couple of hides? kept at about 20-21 C. I will be moving it to a bigger enclosure as it gets big but to start would this be ok for it?

thanks.


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## BlackRose (Jul 8, 2007)

its mainly the health of the animal and any others you may introducing it to (or indeed any others in the room) when you buy any animal, esp wc. then there is also the temprament (altho some cb can be just as nasty) and the price. i think i have a wc chilean rose tarantula, but i try not to get any if possible that are wc, and wildside where i got my wc T from I trust them. As far as amphibs and lizards go though...something that requires handling or much more interaction with them or their environment...id go for cb every time.


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## SpiderGirl33 (Sep 2, 2007)

My WC L.parahybana from Wildside was riddled with mites, however reputable the shop, if it's originally from the wild they don't know anything about it. They may check the animal over for visable parasites, but you can't see internal ones, or some diseases.


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## BlackRose (Jul 8, 2007)

v true. parasites is a risk with anything wc, and usually the ones that do the most damage are the ones we cant see that do their work internally or are too small to see like you said, and then its often too late, or at the very least costs us alot of money. as far as i know though, most of their inverts are cb and they get some in from breeders often and breed thier leos, frills, royals, beardies etc themselves. many a time have i seen cute little baby beardies hatching out of their eggs there, and the two massive tortoises wandering round the shop being petted. real friendly too.


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## SpiderGirl33 (Sep 2, 2007)

Yeah, they breed all their own royals!


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## carliz (Jan 22, 2009)

v-max said:


> WC Corn snakes, leopard geckos and other commonly bred species is morally incorrect and should be frowned upon. But, never become a hypocrite - as even these animals had to have some taken from the wild years ago to get to the CB point we now enjoy. Same for Gerbils, Hamsters etc. All were originally running around in the wild. Are we saying it was okay in the past to have taken those from the wild, allowing us this false feeling of correctness nowadays? Are we (as hobbyists) taking away the benefits for future keepers that we enjoy with Corns and leopards?
> 
> WC species that are rarely or not bred enough to support the demand by us, the hobbyists, is morally fine. In areas where the animals originate from, if there was no trade (ie no money to be made from the animals by the locals) they would sell the land to oil companies, over farm it, slash and burn it, etc etc. these people are often very poor - and unless there is a value to the animl they wont care about it. Hence why CITES was set up - it recognises the postive affect trade with animals on conservation. Its an essential part of protecting animals from, unfortunately, us - human beings. CITES stands for the Control In Trade of Endangared Species - it places quotas on what is allowed to be collected to stop over collecting, and takes into account the (large) benefits of the trade in animals in relation to conservation.
> 
> ...


i take the point on w/c but with crypto i disagree but do you swab every snake wc for crypto


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## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

I personally think that animals should only be taken from their natural environments when it`s absolutely necessary, and there aren`t alternatives available. Personally, I can`t imagine it`s very nice for any animal to go from being wild and free, to being stuck in a viv, tank, cage etc... especially not if there are possibilities of having CB animal instead (in their case, I can only assume it`s fairer going off `you can`t miss what you`ve never had`). Obviously people don`t have muh choice if CB animals aren`t available but I think that avenue should always be persued first.


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