# Need advice on alpine newts please



## twistedvegan (Jul 12, 2012)

I got a stunning pair of alpine newts yesterday and was told they would be fine at room temperature but they're not going in the water at all. The water temp is around 68f which I was told they should be okay with. I'm pretty sure they are alpestris, is it the water temp that's too high or are this species mainly terrestrial? 


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## RubyTiger (Dec 12, 2012)

They should spend a lot of their time in the water. Temperature for alpines should be a little lower than that. Between 50F and 65F. What is the water quality like?, where have you sourced your water? and have you treated it? 

have a look at this link: 

Caudata Culture Species Entry - Mesotriton (Triturus) alpestris


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## twistedvegan (Jul 12, 2012)

I've been reading that and another good one too and have realised I was completely lied to by the person who sold them to me and should have done my research, rather than trusting them. It is a store where they've given me good advice in the past so I didn't think they would lie or be so misinformed.

they are in a mature community tank that I've adapted to provide a land area for them but it's very clear that without cooling the water for them they're not going to survive and I don't have the equipment to cool the water. They are in with some small corydoras, cherry shrimp and guppies, which are supposed to be fine at room temperature but not at the temps the newts need!

They led me to believe they were mainly aquatic and told me they would be absolutely fine up to 75F but it's very clear that they desperately tried to get out of the water as fast as possible when I put them in it. 

The only thing I can think to do for the moment is to set up a seperate mainly terrestrial tank for them but I'm worried I won't be able to provide the right food for them as I've always found crickets to be terrible for instantly drowning whenever I've used them in a terrarium with large areas of water.

I cannot easily take them back as the store is a long way from me and I only go there on the occasions when my work takes me by there and would rather get them to someone who already keeps them and can give them the right environment. 

I'm going to post on the specialist forum and hopefully find someone nearby who can take them on. 

That's the last time I ever listen to advice from a store owner 


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

there are temporary ways to chill water but they are far from ideal, one I remember Is to float a bottle of frozen water. But you need another bottle to switch it out before the first one melts to stop huge temperature swings. I don't know if this helps for a short time. I have never tried it. 

Sorry about your situation bud


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## twistedvegan (Jul 12, 2012)

I've been looking at that option but often work 12 hr days so I cannot guarantee that I won't miss a top up and with summer approaching I just know that it will only take 1 day for the water to get too hot for them. Also that will make the water too cold for the cherry shrimp I think.

I think my best bet is to setup a seperate tank for now and try to rehome them as soon as I can.

I can use that floating bottle method for now by just having 2 bottles and swapping them over every day, thanks for the tip.

Really furious that the store owner put making a profit before animal welfare. Most of the stores I normally go to won't sell an animal without checking to see the husbandry requirements will be met. When I said that I heard they needed cooler water she completely lied to me saying that where they're from they get lots of volcanic pools so they're used to warm water!


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

If they are not aquatic you can keep them on land.Has the male got a crest and is vivid blue on his back? If the answer is yes they are in the aquatic stage.If he is brown they are on the land stage.Some photos might help.


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## twistedvegan (Jul 12, 2012)

I'm pretty sure they're still in the aquatic stage as the male has a slight crest,

I'm just setting up a seperate 2' tank now with cold tap water treated with aquasafe, don't like the idea of putting them in an uncycled tank tho. Not sure if using some water from the tank they're in will be enough,


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

They look like they are in the aquatic stage to me.Sometimes they dont like being moved around when they are aquatic but they probably came out of the water because it was too hot.

If you set up your new aquarium with cold water,ie dont heat it at all.They are not called Alpine Newts for nothing.I have seen them in my enclosures in the water in January.If they wont take to the water put plenty of weed in there ,such as Elodea densa (without any rocks or cork bark above water). but only a couple of inches of water.Then feed them in the water and they will revert to the aquatic stage.You can then gradually increase the level of the water.Bingo .

Dont worry about the cycling you haven`t got time for that.


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

They are gorgeous looking. I don't normally like newts but those are awesome. 

With regards to the shop keeper. It might be a case of him not knowing but didn't want to come across as clueless. Although in this day and age you can Google anything, so it could be putting the sale first. 

I hope you get to keep them anyway


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## twistedvegan (Jul 12, 2012)

I googled and read caresheets in the shop and asked questions but she said they were wrong. They were in a very small tank with about 4 Chinese fire bellied and the water was only 2 inches deep but they were underwater under a piece of wood. 

I've got the tank ready to go and the water is currently 55f. I've put 30l of water in in the hope that the larger volume will be less susceptible to fluctuations and got a few bottles of water in the freezer. 

Should I put them onto the platform and let them explore the water or put them straight in the water and see how they react? I don't want to shock them as their current body temp is 71F


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Put them on the platform first to see if they enter the water of their own choice.If they dont reduce the water as I said previously and that will get them aquatic again.

You will need a lid on there though,otherwise they will climb up the corner of the aquarium and you will find a dehydrated newt on your floor.


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## twistedvegan (Jul 12, 2012)

Will try that now thanks. The lid is nice and secure as it was a tank I've just swapped round with a millipede colony. I might wait until I have some frozen bottles ready tomorrow before I reduce the water as my room temp is 75F and if there's not much water in there it'll quickly rise to room temp.

Can you recommend an effective aquarium cooler?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

No ,not easily or cheaply.Though the water wont be as high as 75f.

Can you put them ouside in a shady area?


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## twistedvegan (Jul 12, 2012)

I live in a flat Unfortunately. They're in my kitchen now with the window open but it's still not much cooler than the rest of the flat. Pretty sure I'm going to have to rehome them before they expire. Hopefully the frozen bottle technique will be effective but I'm due to go away for a weekend soon. Hopefully by then I'll have a handle on what size bottle to use and how long they take to melt.

Thanks for the advice.


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## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

I have not had any experience with alpine newts. But I have kept cold water marine.

THe temperatures should not go above 18 degrees celecius in british seas. I kept a large 500L tank. The main problem is keeping the tank cool.

There are a number of ways in doing this:
a) Using ice, not the best. Unpredictable at best, lethal at worst.
b)Putting the tank by an open window
c)Buy a chiller. These are expensive. But well worth it. Especially if you buy a larger tank.

I would say you would need a larger tank, I would guess at a 300L, with about 30% land 70% water. And getting a chiller similar to this Aquatuning -Your watercooling and modding distributor - Durchlaufkühler Hailea Ultra Titan 150 (HC130=110Watt Kälteleistung) waterchiller Hailea Ultra Titan 150 (HC130=110Watt cooling capacity) 37023

That should do a 300L quite well. It may be possible to reduce the temperature to the required 4 degrees during winter if you place it in a cold part of the house.

NOTE: It won't be 300L if you account for water displacement by the added land and logs, stones etc. in the water.

I use ND AQUATICS LTD Quite good. Fairly good prices and very good quality. Much cheaper than most stores' own brands and a much better finish. I bought a 250L for about £600 from my fish store, found that £600 could have gotten me a 400L!!!

So much better. Hope that helped.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

As Patto said I would be very concerned about using ice.The newts may try to climb on the bottle and that certainly wont do them any good.

I am sure that things will be fine if you put them in a north facing window.


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I've seen a project using a Peltier cooler to cool water for newts. Although reading about the inefficiency of them I wouldn't recommend it lol. It does sound pretty cool (no pun intended)


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## twistedvegan (Jul 12, 2012)

I've been reading some good advice on here 

Caudata Culture Articles - Cooling

but I don't think there's any methods I can use that will be effective and reliable enough to guarantee their safety as the fan method looks pretty ineffective and I don't have £600 to spend on a cooler. Going to add an air stone and wire up some pc fans for now.

The male is swimming about now but the water has gone from 56f to 60f already,

My best hope is to try and keep them cool until I can find an opportunity to return them to the shop or find someone that's already got some that can take them off my hands.


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## twistedvegan (Jul 12, 2012)

I'm pretty sure I've got one of these kicking around somewhere. If I replace the lid of the tank with the one from the cooler it will certainly cool the air down. Not sure if that will cool the water down enough but I think it could be worth a try.

https://www.google.co.uk/shopping/p...B&sa=X&ei=HoCFUbTFD8XiPOvugFA&ved=0CGUQ8wIwBQ


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## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

Perhaps you could open a window and use PC fans. Chillers are quite expensive, but I think you may need a larger tank down the line, and I would say £250 is not unreasonable in the long run. It is something to consider but it is needed if you want constant low temps in a normal house temp room. The other option is to put it in a garage if you have one. Do not however expose it to the outside, not just predators but also frost.

You wont be able to get the heat down a lot, perhaps to 18-20 degrees at most. 

One other place to have a look for an old fish tank is your local scrap. I got a 250L for £50, still water tight. May be worth a go.

What is needed is for someone to find an inexpensive way of keeping an aquarium in a 24 degree room at 10 degrees. but currently the cheapest I can find an unopened chiller of a suitable size is £221.

So I would if I was you:
a) get them by a window and open it.
b) Run some kind of fan over them
c) Add chilled water gradually over the day.

Option c works by getting a frozen solid ice pack http://www.campingworld.co.uk/Models.aspx?ModelID=183&gclid=CNrZ49_P_bYCFbMQtAod52sASw&utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=UnitedKingdom and adding that to water to chill the water down a bit. Then adding the water gradually at about 1L/hour to not stress the newts. The ice should be able to get the water to 12 degrees, and this done a few times a day would replicate natural cycles. Use a thermometer though and do not add ice directly, I say use a pack to help prevent complete freezing. And having it in a separate container will remove most of the risk. That should work. 

So take 1L out of aquarium, add 1L of new treated water to a bucket/pan then add the ice block to it. Leave for 15-30 mins then add the water at about 1/2 L every 30 mins making sure it is not too cold.

Alternatively you could put water into your fridge and add it to the aquarium. If you were creative you could make a drip feed that constantly adds and removes water chilling it.


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## RubyTiger (Dec 12, 2012)

twistedvegan said:


> realised I was completely lied to by the person who sold them to me and should have done my research, rather than trusting them. It is a store where they've given me good advice in the past so I didn't think they would lie or be so misinformed.


 


twistedvegan said:


> Really furious that the store owner put making a profit before animal welfare. Most of the stores I normally go to won't sell an animal without checking to see the husbandry requirements will be met. When I said that I heard they needed cooler water she completely lied to me saying that where they're from they get lots of volcanic pools so they're used to warm water!


 
I like that you admit you didn't do your research and I don't think anyone can blame you when it would make sense that the store owner knows what they are talking about. Unfortunately you're not the first and won't be the last to find out that this isn't always the case. Many exotics shop workers, in my view, eventually lose sight of what they do and why they do it and start thinking of the money since it can be a difficult business. Another thing to think about is each worker is likely to be more knowledgeable about one particular group of animals unfortunately and it looks like the member of staff you spoke to didn't know much about amphibians/newts (in fact it sounds like she was making it up on the spot). But then again how can you expect them to know the care requirements for each species off by heart. (Obviously some shops are an exception, I do know a couple of decent shops near me). I found out too, that you can't trust some people in this trade when I was sold "captive bred" animals and later was told by another member of staff that it wasn't true they were wild caught :bash:


For future reference or to anyone reading if you're stuck you don't have to rush out and buy a tank. As a cheaper alternative I know a lot of people use plastic storage boxes. Although you must ensure you have the lid on (create ventilation - drill some small holes or if you drill bigger holes or cut a big square cover with mesh or even old tights or something lol) or a screen to stop newts from escaping. 

It's also nice to see you're making an effort for them and putting the newts first as well. Good luck whatever you do with them. Another suggestion might be to keep them lower down, nearer the ground as heat rises.


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## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

We should all expect pet store owners to know what they are doing. It would be like gong into a pharmacists and saying you have a cold then they give you a tablet with no instructions and say take 2 every 6 hours when you are only suppose to take one every 4 hours. 

Unfortunately there are some stores which just want to make money, that is why I personally don't go to large chain stores as their priority is to make as much money as possible.

But at the end of the day it is a business and it is always best to research.

If you are hesitant of buying ask them to hold it for a day or two for you to make up our mind and get all the relevant information.

As long as we learn from our mistakes no one can blame us.


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## twistedvegan (Jul 12, 2012)

*happier newts *

I picked up a coolbox at a steam fayre today for £5 and adapted it into the lid and it's working! The temp is sticking at 59F and both newts are happily staying in the water, and I though I was going to have to find £250 for a cooler!

Thanks to everyone for their advice in this thread, I would have been lost without your guidance.

Here's the temps now










And here's how I got there










And here's my female posing for the camera


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Clever idea dude, congrats on your success :2thumb:


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## twistedvegan (Jul 12, 2012)

Thanks, I won't call it a success until they start eating and breeding.


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