# Its official, the lunatics are running the asylum?..!!



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

*Its official, the lunatics are running the asylum…..!!*

*Its official, the lunatics are running the asylum…..!! *

Eurogroup for Animals, which was formerly known as Eurogroup for Animal Welfare, but dropped the reference to ‘welfare’ around 2007, is celebrating the introduction of new legislation in the Netherlands that will consigns many commonly kept species to extinction in captivity in the Netherlands, this is inline with the introduction of similar legislation in Belgium. 

Eurogroup for Animals is Europe’s largest and most influential Animal Rights organisations and was founded by the RSPCA back in the 1980. It provides advice and expertise on animal welfare (Animal Rights) to various European institutions, such as the European Commission, the Council of Ministers, and the European Parliament. It also provides the secretariat of the European Parliamentary Intergroup on the Welfare and Conservation of Animals, which meets at the European Parliament in Strasbourg once a month.

European seminar on Positive lists and exotic pets


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

*Netherlands Positive List*​


*Appendix 1a: species that may be held without special conditions*

_Galea musteloides_ Common yellow-toothed cavy
_Acomys dimidiatus_ Arabian spiny mouse
_Cavia aperea_ Brazilian guinea pig
_Acomys russatus_ Golden spiny mouse
_Microtus guentheri_ Günther's vole
_Oryctolagus cuniculus_ The European rabbit


*Appendix 1b: production animals list, dog and cat*

_Oryctolagus cuniculus_ European rabbit
_Rattus norvegicus_ Norway rats
_Mus musculus_ House mouse
_Cavia porcellus_ Guinea pig
_Mesocricetus auratus_ Golden hamster
_Meriones unguiculatus_ Mongolian gerbil
_Mustela vison_ American mink
_Equus caballus_ The horse
_Equus asinus_ The donkey
_Sus scrofa_ Wild boar
_Capra hircus_ Domestic goat
_Bos Taurus_ Cattle
_Bubalus bubalis_ Water buffalo
_Cervus dama dama_ Fallow deer
_Cervus elaphus_ Red deer
_Ovis aries_ Sheep


*Annex 1c animals may be kept under special conditions*

_Vicugna pacos_ *Alpaca* 
_Camelus bactrianus_*Bactrian camel*
_*Mus minutoide *_*African pygmy mouse*
_*Chaetophractus vellerosus*_ H*airy armadillo* 
_Phodopus campbelli_ *Campbell's dwarf hamster* 
_*Tamiops mcclellandii*_ *Himalayan striped squirrel* 
_Mustela putorius furo_ *Ferret* 
_*Ph*__*odopus roborovskii*_ *Roborovski hamsters* 
_Xerus erythropus _*Striped ground squirrel*
_Rangifer tarandus __R_*reindeer*
_Tapirus terrestris_ *South American tapir* 
_Callosciurus notatu_ *Plantain squirrel* 
_Callosciurus prevostii_ *Prevost's squirrel* 
_Vicugna vicugna_ V*icuña*
_Urocitellus richardsonii _*Richardson's ground squirrel*
_Sciurus variegatoides_ V*ariegated squirrel* 
_*Meriones persicus*_ *Persian jird* 
_Camelus dromedarius_ *Dromedary camel* 
_Callosciurus finlaysonii _*Finlayson's squirrel*
_*Lagurus lagurus *_S*teppe lemming* 
_*Nasua narica*_ W*hite-nosed coati* 
_*Pachyuromys duprasi *_*Duprasi gerbil*
Opossum 103 possible species from 19 genera!
_Chinchilla lanigera_ C*hinchilla*
_*Tamiops swinhoei*_ *Swinhoe's striped squirrel* 
_Lama glama_*Llama*
_*Cervus nippon *_*S**ika deer*
_Macropus agilis_ *Sandy wallaby* 
_Macropus eugenii_ T*ammar wallaby* 
_Wallabia bicolor __S_*wamp wallaby*
_Macropus rufogriseus __R_*ed-necked wallaby*
_Macropus parma_ *Parma wallaby* 
_Cricetomys gambianus_*G**ambian pouched rat*

*Annex 1d Mammals that are examined by the WUR but do not come on the positive list *

_Paradoxurus hermaphroditus_*Asian palm civet*
_*Dolichotis salinicola*_* Chacoan mara*
_Macropus robustus_ C*ommon wallaroo* 
_*Eira barbara*_ T*ayra* 
_Arctictis binturong_*Binturong*
_Dolichotis patagonum _*Patagonian mara*
_*Equus quagga*_*Burchell's zebra*
_Macropus giganteus_ E*astern grey kangaroo* 
_Genetta genetta_ C*ommon genet* 
_Sciurus granatensis_ R*ed-tailed squirrel* 
_Hystrix indica _*Indian crested porcupine* 
_*Glaucomys volans*_ S*outhern flying squirrel* 
_Vulpes corsac_ C*orsac fox* 
_Vulpes lagopu _*Arctic fox* 
_Sciurus lis_*Japanese squirrel*
_Tamiasciurus hudsonicus_ *American red squirrel* 
_Helogale parvula_ C*ommon dwarf mongoose* 
_Hydrochoerus hydrochaeris_*Capybara*
_Cynictis penicillata _*Yellow mongoose* 
_Ictidomys tridecemlineatus_ T*hirteen-lined ground squirrel* 
_Mungos mungo_ B*anded mongoose* 
_Nyctereutes procyonoides_*Raccoon dog*
_Phodopus sungorus_Russian winter white hamster
_Petaurus breviceps_ S*ugar glider* 
_*Eutamias sibiricus*_*Common chipmunk*
_Cynomys gunnisoni_ *Gunnison's prairie dog* 
_Octodon degu __D_*egu*
_Procyon lotor _*Common raccoon*
_Macropus rufus_ R*ed kangaroo* 
_Procyon cancrivorus_ C*rab-eating raccoon*
_Ursus americanus_ or _Ursus thibetanus_ ‘black bear’ 
_Potos flavus_ *Kinkajou* 
_Mephitis mephitis_ S*triped skunk* 
_Cynomys ludovicianus_ B*lack-tailed prairie dog* 
_Rousettus aegyptiacus _*Egyptian fruit bat* 
Bizon – *American bison*(_Bison bison_) or *European bison* (_Bison bonasus_) ?
_*Atelerix albiventris*_ *Four-toed hedgehog* 
_Cynomys parvidens_ *Utah prairie dog* 
_Cynomys leucurus_ W*hite-tailed prairie dog* 
_Ursus arctos_ B*rown bear* 
_*Jaculus jaculus *_*L**esser Egyptian jerboa*
_*Cynomys mexicanus *_*Mexican prairie dog*
_Canis lupus dingo_ D*ingo* 
_Vulpes zerda_ F*ennec fox*
_Dasyprocta leporina_ R*ed-rumped agouti* 
_Vulpes vulpes_ *Red fox* 
Eland - *moose*(North America) or *Eurasian elk* (Europe) (_Alces alces_) ?
_Leptailurus serval_ *S**erval*
_Prionailurus bengalensis_ *Leopard cat* 
_Sciurus igniventris _*Northern Amazon Red Squirrel*

Species common in pet trade


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## 1b3 (Aug 17, 2011)

I see


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## Loderuna (Mar 9, 2010)

There would be riots in the UK if government tried to implement something like this. Plus they don't have the money to police it!


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## mrkeda (Nov 6, 2012)

Loderuna said:


> There would be riots


lol no there wouldn't.


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## 1b3 (Aug 17, 2011)

Loderuna said:


> There would be riots in the UK if government tried to implement something like this. Plus they don't have the money to police it!


 The UK is not the Netherlands.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Loderuna said:


> There would be riots in the UK if government tried to implement something like this. Plus they don't have the money to police it!


Belgium already have such a list, Netherlands plan to introduce theirs in Jan 2014 (subject to legal challenge) and Germany are also looking to do something similar, it won’t be long before the UK comes under pressure to follow suite…….!!


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## 1b3 (Aug 17, 2011)

Chris Newman said:


> Belgium already have such a list, Netherlands plan to introduce theirs in Jan 2014 (subject to legal challenge) and Germany are also looking to do something similar, it won’t be long before the UK comes under pressure to follow suite…….!!


 We shall never surrender. Never, never, never. We will fight them on the beaches... 
Anything which intrudes on civil liberties and is a waste of time trying to enforce should, if it makes it to Calais, stay there.


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## duffey1 (Aug 24, 2012)

Regrettably, Chris Newman is correct!

The Netherlands Government plan to implement the Animal Activists ideal in January 2014, a similar list (very limited in number of species) already exists in Belgian legislation.

The logic used by the 'activists' is that Exotic Animals have a smaller following - once they've achieved limitations on Animals, they plan to move on to reptiles, plants and birds!

Activists in Germany succeeded in disrupting the keeping of certain species of birds by persuading the Government to visit known keepers of species including Hoopoe (Upopa epops) and seize eggs and chicks!

In the UK, the RSPCA (who founded Eurogroup!) raid and seize - often under unlawfully obtained Search Warrants, and aided (and protected) by the Police - with apparent impunity!

There are many questions that the Dutch authorities need to be asked :-
Is the intention to seize animals currently held? 
If so, are they to be euthanased? 
Or passed to Zoos? 
Or passed to unqualified, inexperienced 'Animal Activist Organisations' posing as 'Animal Welfare Organisations'?

Could I suggest that, instead of being complacent, people e-mail the Netherlands Embassy - [email protected] - and raise their concerns.

M J Duffey


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## Loderuna (Mar 9, 2010)

The problems will come if an EU law is passed that the UK is expected to follow. Just another reason to get out of the EU and run our country how we want!


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

What are the 'conditions' imposed/proposed for the keeping of annex 1C species?


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## duffey1 (Aug 24, 2012)

Loderuna

Membership of the EU is, in this case, immaterial! 
The Dutch Government are 'caving in' to the Animal Activists! The Belgians have already caved-in.
The Exotic Animal keepers are a 'soft touch' - but Reptiles, Plants and Birds are in line for the same treatment!

Pouchie
If the Dutch authorities know the licencing requirements - they are not telling anybody, so we are all in the dark!
The 'banned' list - no one knows if the Dutch authorities intend to confiscate, euthanase or compensate! It's a poorly thought out law, with the supporting data severely flawed - but do we expect anything else from the 'antis'!


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

ferrets? seriously???????


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## 1b3 (Aug 17, 2011)

duffey1 said:


> Loderuna
> 
> Membership of the EU is, in this case, immaterial!
> The Dutch Government are 'caving in' to the Animal Activists! The Belgians have already caved-in.
> ...


 These are small nations. How many people live in the Benelux countries. The antis have the weight of very big money ("for individuals") behind them.
I recently read how councils can be effectively pressurised by such groups and was appauled! 
Do we trully live in democratic places when anarchists can dictate what is law?


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Pouchie said:


> What are the 'conditions' imposed/proposed for the keeping of annex 1C species?


To the very best of my knowledge no criteria has yet been set, but I don’t think that is the salient point. Know one can seriously be suggesting that you need to be licensed (regulated) by the state (Netherlands in this case) to keep very easy species that are long established as general pets, i.e. dwarf hamster, ferret, chinchilla etc, its sheer madness……!!


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## 1b3 (Aug 17, 2011)

Chris Newman said:


> To the very best of my knowledge no criteria has yet been set, but I don’t think that is the salient point. Know one can seriously be suggesting that you need to be licensed (regulated) by the state (Netherlands in this case) to keep very easy species that are long established as general pets, i.e. dwarf hamster, ferret, chinchilla etc, its sheer madness……!!


"Ferret", they couldn't enforce this in a red light hash cafe in Amsterdam never mind the rest of the Netherlands... They probably couldn't enforce this one in the red light district full stop!


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## duffey1 (Aug 24, 2012)

What can UK keepers do to support our Dutch friends - 
E-mail the Dutch Embassy ([email protected]) raising a set of questions - 
how do they plan to implement the restictions; 
what is the fate of the animals seized - euthanased or given to Animal Activist organisations posing as 'Rescue centres'? 
Do the Dutch government intend to pay compensation?

One group responsible for the actions of the Dutch Government is Stichting AAP - 
AAP Foundation - Home. Suggest people look at their site - and then refuse to visit or support in any way any Zoo or 'rescue center' which supports AAP. I'm sure Admin would not allow us to set up a 'Blacklist' - but the Stichting AAP site could form the 'template' of a Blacklist!

Do bear in mind that Eurogroup for Animals - overall responsible for the actions taken by both the Dutch & Belgian Governments - was set up by the RSPCA! Currently chaired by the RSPCA! Question - how much money has been illegally channelled by the RSPCA into Eurogroup?


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## 1b3 (Aug 17, 2011)

duffey1 said:


> What can UK keepers do to support our Dutch friends -
> E-mail the Dutch Embassy ([email protected]) raising a set of questions -
> how do they plan to implement the restictions;
> what is the fate of the animals seized - euthanased or given to Animal Activist organisations posing as 'Rescue centres'?
> ...


 The channeling of resources into Europe by a British charity would be immoral. They're supposed to be 100% commited to Uk animals are they not.
To ask that I believe the RSPCA are doing anything illegal is not a notion that I wish to believe. It would be a betrayal of public trust would it not?
If you could present evidence, and this is not the place to do it really, then I'd be trully flabbergasted.


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## duffey1 (Aug 24, 2012)

1b3

Sorry pal, but if you look on the Eurogroup for Animals website, it clearly states that it was set up by the RSPCA.

It also clearly states that Eurogroup is currently chaired by the RSPCA.

All participants of Eurogroup fund their offices in Brussels, and all relevant activities including salaries etc - since the RSPCA are founders, active participants and currently chairing the organisation, I'll leave you to draw your own conclusion! 

However, since making payments to another charity is illegal, I can't imagine the RSPCA admitting misuse of charity funds although they have freely admitted (in Court) that they routinely break the Law. Incidentally, the RSPCA are unique as a Charity and 'prosecuting body' in that they have Criminal convictions - R v RSPCA (1984) Conspiracy to pervert the course of justice and two prosecutions for breach of Dangerous Wild Animals Act - and they are the one that I know, there are almost certainly more!


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## 1b3 (Aug 17, 2011)

Remarkable.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

duffey1 said:


> Pouchie
> If the Dutch authorities know the licencing requirements - they are not telling anybody, so we are all in the dark!
> The 'banned' list - no one knows if the Dutch authorities intend to confiscate, euthanase or compensate! It's a poorly thought out law, with the supporting data severely flawed - but do we expect anything else from the 'antis'!


Thank you for confirmation.



Chris Newman said:


> To the very best of my knowledge no criteria has yet been set, but I don’t think that is the salient point. Know one can seriously be suggesting that you need to be licensed (regulated) by the state (Netherlands in this case) to keep very easy species that are long established as general pets, i.e. dwarf hamster, ferret, chinchilla etc, its sheer madness……!!


 
Not the salient point, no. I was looking for further details to enable BEMA to add its protest.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

duffey1 said:


> What can UK keepers do to support our Dutch friends -
> E-mail the Dutch Embassy ([email protected]) raising a set of questions -
> how do they plan to implement the restictions;
> what is the fate of the animals seized - euthanased or given to Animal Activist organisations posing as 'Rescue centres'?
> ...


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

5plusmany said:


> duffey1 said:
> 
> 
> > What can UK keepers do to support our Dutch friends -
> ...


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Yes, and indeed it is important to remember that many of these 'trusted and respected' sanctuaries/charities/wildlife parks began their journeys as private keepers themselves!

Developments in other EU countries, and the way our own governmental dictatorship is
operating currently, is very worrying indeed. It is vitally important we, the keepers, have our say in consultations etc. These positive (or 'white') lists seem to be proving that no pet ownership is really 'safe' not only what we call exotic..


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## Stephan Grundy (Jan 28, 2013)

This is really pretty shocking.

I am informed that in Norway, it is illegal to keep snakes...full stop. In spite of the fact that there are not a huge number of species that would have the slightest chance of surviving a Norwegian winter if they escaped...I'd say the people who are using animal rights as an excuse for punitive and unthought-out loonieness seriously need watching, lest it happen here!


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## Jb1432 (Apr 19, 2008)

Stephan Grundy said:


> This is really pretty shocking.
> 
> I am informed that in Norway, it is illegal to keep snakes...full stop. In spite of the fact that there are not a huge number of species that would have the slightest chance of surviving a Norwegian winter if they escaped...I'd say the people who are using animal rights as an excuse for punitive and unthought-out loonieness seriously need watching, lest it happen here!


Norway has animal rights?

I guess they don't list their harpooning of minke whales.


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## Stephan Grundy (Jan 28, 2013)

Jb1432 said:


> Norway has animal rights?
> 
> I guess they don't list their harpooning of minke whales.


Ironic, huh?


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## Ceretrea (Nov 17, 2008)

Does it mean that a species not listed will be prohibited? So no more Chinese hamsters?


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## duffey1 (Aug 24, 2012)

Ceretrea,

If a species is not included in the 'Positive' or Licenced list, it is banned!

It's the way bureaucracy works - Belgium and Denmark already have such laws in place, and it is only a matter of time before other countries try to follow!

If you want to do something to save your hobby - sign the petition re the Dutch Positie list!

Birds, Reptiles, Fish and Plants will be next on the 'antis' list! You can guarantee that they've already prepared their lists!

MJD


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## Ceretrea (Nov 17, 2008)

I cannot understand why an earth every other species of hamster is allowed but they are not and I'm sad to say that my little BEW may become even rarer if this goes ahead as the successful BEW lines are all Holland based


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