# Hmmm, do leopard geckos need UVB light?



## JadeM (Dec 30, 2012)

I've got a 3ft wooden viv for my leopard gecko which I heat up using a heatmat, which is controlled by a thermostat and I use a digital thermometer to give me an accurate temp reading.
I don't use any light bulbs as I feel this is enough to heat up the warm side of my viv! ..I understand some people use them to heat up there vivariums though.
However, a women in pets at home told me my gecko NEEDS UVB light:gasp:..
What is everyones view on this???


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## yuesaur (Aug 29, 2011)

They dont NEED it, but some keepers find it beneficial to have one in the viv. I have a 6% in mine and i sometimes see my leos coming out during the day to 'bask'


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## Marcia (Aug 23, 2009)

Same as above, they don't need it but it probably wouldn't harm them if you wanted to use it.

I personally don't use it 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

Yeah agreed with above. This is still dispute about whether they need it, but keepers overcome this by using a bulb that omits a lower percentage of UV.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

The only thing I agree with above is that they don't need it to survive.
However it has huge benefits, not might, not some, a lot, especially for new keepers.
If you want your animals to thrive you need UVB and a heat gradient IMO.


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## Steve1326 (Nov 4, 2012)

Agree with all above comments they don't need uv but I do have a low percentage uv in mine and as said by someone above mine also come out to bask under the uv


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## JadeM (Dec 30, 2012)

Im considering using the repti glo 2.0 UVB bulb just for around 8 hours a day.. won't hurt to try it out for him, plus it will light my viv up better than the natural day light.
Does anybody else use this bulb or reccomend another bulb with low UVB?


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## geckograham (Jan 22, 2012)

I tried UV for my geckos and the just hid from it! I have a few who always sleep in the open during the day and even they scurried to cover as soon as the UV came on. They don't benefit if they are in a cave! So it may be beneficial but for me it was a waste of time.

Leopard geckos thrive without it so while it can't do any harm, what is the point?


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

geckograham said:


> I tried UV for my geckos and the just hid from it! I have a few who always sleep in the open during the day and even they scurried to cover as soon as the UV came on. They don't benefit if they are in a cave! So it may be beneficial but for me it was a waste of time.
> 
> Leopard geckos thrive without it so while it can't do any harm, what is the point?


In the wild they are exposed to natural UV lights, the argument is that we should replicate the exact conditions they have in the wild in order for them to thrive. This is similar to the water dish argument, some keepers say whats the point in providing the water dish as reptiles never drink from them and get all their moisture from their food, but its important to provide one so they have the opportunity to utilise it


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## Jesterone (Sep 30, 2012)

Chris18 said:


> The only thing I agree with above is that they don't need it to survive.
> However it has huge benefits, not might, not some, a lot, especially for new keepers.
> If you want your animals to thrive you need UVB and a heat gradient IMO.


Agree with above compared to the rest.

I don't have a unit yet until I get paid at the end of the month (Tough time of year!) but I will be getting an Arcadia euro-range forest 5% 15w or D3 6% T8 and reflector.


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

After a fair bit of trawling.... It seems that MBD is an issue affecting only captive animals. I cannot find a single report of it occuring naturally. So I will say yes, provide ALL reptiles with UV.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi all,

Im not going to bang on here again about this you all know my thoughts upon the re-creation of wild habitats. We can all agree that Leos like cresties are not nocturnal but crepuscular and use light in the same way as other other diernal and crepuscular animals.

Moshpitviper is correct MBD only affects captive animals.

In short the leo is exposed to wild UV index similar to the beardie. They have also evolved a neat little predator avoidence trick of hiding in burrows and rock networks and using sunlight in EXACTLY the same way as all other reptiles but due to the thinner skin just in a much quicker time.

I think the question that we should be asking is. Does it have skin? does it have bones? is there anyway that they would use natural light in the wild?

If the answer is yes then as natural selection dictates they will make use of the surroundings and the energy from light that ins a FREE resource for them in the wild.

Please have a read of these links.

http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/032_PRK_Feb10-2.pdf

http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/024_PRK_June11-1.pdf

http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/032-33_PRK_June12.pdf

Any questions im more than happy to help

John


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## yuesaur (Aug 29, 2011)

Bexzini said:


> In the wild they are exposed to natural UV lights, the argument is that we should replicate the exact conditions they have in the wild in order for them to thrive. This is similar to the water dish argument, some keepers say whats the point in providing the water dish as reptiles never drink from them and get all their moisture from their food, but its important to provide one so they have the opportunity to utilise it


couldn't agree more.
when my geckos expose themselves to it they go the loveliest brightest colour you've ever seen


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## geckograham (Jan 22, 2012)

I take on board all of these viewpoints but I think people here are leaning towards it being a MUST HAVE. It simply isn't. It's not like I'm closed off to the idea, I've tried it, didn't find any benefits. My leos are all the picture of health and I very rarely see a keeper who actually does provide UV for leos. I thought leos were nocturnal, every book I've read on them says so (not much on the internet when I started!), when did this change?


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## yuesaur (Aug 29, 2011)

they are more Crepuscular than nocturnal, its thought now. mine are up in the morning and are awake around 8/9pm at night usually.

and my viv WITH uv.


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## geckograham (Jan 22, 2012)

yuesaur said:


> they are more Crepuscular than nocturnal, its thought now. mine are up in the morning and are awake around 8/9pm at night usually.
> 
> and my viv WITH uv.
> image


Nice!


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## Jesterone (Sep 30, 2012)

geckograham said:


> I take on board all of these viewpoints but I think people here are leaning towards it being a MUST HAVE. It simply isn't. It's not like I'm closed off to the idea, I've tried it, didn't find any benefits. My leos are all the picture of health and I very rarely see a keeper who actually does provide UV for leos. I thought leos were nocturnal, every book I've read on them says so (not much on the internet when I started!), when did this change?


The view is taken that they are crepuscular (recent studies have proved this). They only don't 'need' UV in captivity because of the supplements we give them. 

In the wild they don't receive those supplements, so how else would they get UV. It's also likely that even when a Leo is hiding during the day, some part of its body may well be exposed and or reflected light may still find itself in the hide.


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## Jesterone (Sep 30, 2012)

yuesaur said:


> they are more Crepuscular than nocturnal, its thought now. mine are up in the morning and are awake around 8/9pm at night usually.
> 
> and my viv WITH uv.
> image


Dude your Leo is nothing but bones. See a vet.


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## geckograham (Jan 22, 2012)

Jesterone said:


> The view is taken that they are crepuscular (recent studies have proved this). They only don't 'need' UV in captivity because of the supplements we give them.
> 
> In the wild they don't receive those supplements, so how else would they get UV. It's also likely that even when a Leo is hiding during the day, some part of its body may well be exposed and or reflected light may still find itself in the hide.


So does a UV bulb remove the need for supplementation? And given all the advise on never covering the UV light for diurnals, how can the reflected light theory really hold up? It is always made out that UV rays are so easy to block out. One more question, if the UV is just touching one of the gecko's legs as it hides, is this enough to be beneficial?


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## yuesaur (Aug 29, 2011)

Jesterone said:


> Dude your Leo is nothing but bones. See a vet.


i thought something was wrong with it, i couldn't quite figure out what :hmm:


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## geckograham (Jan 22, 2012)

Can anyone give me links to studies showing that leos are crepuscular please? I've just had a quick look and can't find any. This thread has spiked my interest because I have always (and again today) found the consensus amongst experts to be that they are nocturnal.


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## Jesterone (Sep 30, 2012)

geckograham said:


> So does a UV bulb remove the need for supplementation? And given all the advise on never covering the UV light for diurnals, how can the reflected light theory really hold up? It is always made out that UV rays are so easy to block out. One more question, if the UV is just touching one of the gecko's legs as it hides, is this enough to be beneficial?


I'm no expert so I'll only address the last point, perhaps read the links provided by ArcadiaJohn. 

But it's been proven that a leopard gecko absorbs UV much faster in shorter times than a lot of reptiles. In comparison, a Leo can absorb up to 14 times more UV as a Bearded Dragon. 

So I think one leg sticking out a hide is beneficial still. Some even believe that the Leo is purposely sticking out that leg.


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## geckograham (Jan 22, 2012)

Jesterone said:


> I'm no expert so I'll only address the last point, perhaps read the links provided by ArcadiaJohn.
> 
> But it's been proven that a leopard gecko absorbs UV much faster in shorter times than a lot of reptiles. In comparison, a Leo can absorb up to 14 times more UV as a Bearded Dragon.
> 
> So I think one leg sticking out a hide is beneficial still. Some even believe that the Leo is purposely sticking out that leg.


Anywhere I can read the study that has proven this?

No offence to arcadiajohn but doesn't he sell UV lighting systems for a living?


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## Jesterone (Sep 30, 2012)

geckograham said:


> Anywhere I can read the study that has proven this?
> 
> No offence to arcadiajohn but doesn't he sell UV lighting systems for a living?


It's a good point lol. But I have seen some things myself not related to Arcadia. I'll see if I can remember them. 

Don't get me wrong, we've come this far without UV for Leo's. Its a proven fact that Leo's can live and breed without it. But this is about providing the best possible environment. 

I would think in years to come UV for Leo's would be a normal occurrence.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

geckograham said:


> Anywhere I can read the study that has proven this?
> 
> No offence to arcadiajohn but doesn't he sell UV lighting systems for a living?


So? His company also does research in to the reason people need his products, that's what marketing should be.


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## Jesterone (Sep 30, 2012)

geckograham said:


> Anywhere I can read the study that has proven this?
> 
> No offence to arcadiajohn but doesn't he sell UV lighting systems for a living?


I would assume however that you do notice activity in your Leo's at dawn and dusk. Couple that with the extended daylight hours in their native countries and it pretty much speaks for itself.


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## yuesaur (Aug 29, 2011)

Chris18 said:


> So? His company also does research in to the reason people need his products, that's what marketing should be.


agreed.
not like reptiglo were they do a google search, chuck things together and hope for the best.

ive watched arcadiajohn (in a non-stalker wa) via fb and via here for a good while now.
he's always doing some potty uv research scheme, which is reflected back into the stuff he makes, which is why people tend to listen to him and buy his stuff.

he focuses on one aspect of reptile keeping, some people focus on breeding royal morphs, some breed and focus only on leos. he only focuses on uvb lol.


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## Jesterone (Sep 30, 2012)

geckograham said:


> Anywhere I can read the study that has proven this?



http://www.uvguide.co.uk/skintests.htm

This is one place I read about Leo's being crepuscular and the different absorption levels of species. 

There are many more but I'm at work


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

It is true that reptiles cannot correctly absorb D3 without a UV source, be it natural or artificial. So it's fair to say that supplementing a Leo without UV is a bit like trying to wipe your bum with grease proof paper no?


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## Jesterone (Sep 30, 2012)

It's my understanding that it's about their efficiency in utilising UV.

For example, an anole that basks all day in one part of the world would be generally bad at utilising all that UV, as they have so much available. 

An anole in the middle of a rainforest would be generally very efficient at utilising UV as the need is far greater. 

Leo's, being crepuscular, absorb as much as they can in as little as time as possible.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

They don't NEED it but they can benefit from it, I don't provide artificial uvb myself for mine but in the summer months or warm days (including all other reptiles snakes etc) they will get exposed to natural light as often as I am able, in the past I have used it and if I have a spare kicking around il give it but I won't loose sleep over it if they spend half the year indoors, mine are healthy, a good weight, have a healthy appetite and a good supplemental routine.

I appreciate their is some strong views and opinions on both sides, but with the gecko family in particular I am of mixed feelings, I provide it to my crestie only because I hear so much about Mbd in this gecko (which is supposedly nocturnal, yet he openly sits under it and his heatbulb during the day.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

There is much mis-information in this trade. I have been in the trade for long enough to have seen some of the lies that were told in days gone by in the aim to find cheap, easy to look after animals. This does largely refer back to a not so ethical age where aimals were comodities that were traded without regard to the animal in the aim of making money alone.

So an animal was found that was commonly found in rock networks, that was easy to feed and very inclined to breed and all without biting too many children.

They respond well to synthetic supplimentation and will readily breed.

So it was thought that all of the shade dwelling reptiles and amphibs must be nocturnal. We couldnt however be further from the truth. There really isnt very many truly nocturnal species out there and even those that are more active at night are commonally found sleeping in full sun by day. You dont have to be awake to make full use of the D3 cycle. the idea of crepuscular activity never seemed to cross anybodies mind until about 5 years ago.

So what has been developed over millions of years by these animals as good predator avoidence I believe has become their worst nightmare in captivity. They have the ability to see and use 100 million colours inc UV and can see gradients of energy via clolumns of light that by nature work through the gaps in the rocks. we call this leaf/rock scatter illumination.

So to answer you YES they can make full use of the D3 cycle just by exposing a small part of the body. An arm or a leg or a bit of a tail. This will have the same result in the blood in the same % as a full diernal desert animal but as the skin is thinner it happens in a fraction of the time. It is in this way that the man made high morphs tend to use lighting. Just putting a leg or tail out into exposure while the head and as such sensative eyes are hidden.

You see with animals in the wild they are always struggling to survive, hense evolution. If there is a resource that is free and easy to use they WILL use it. they will use it in the safest way possible for them but they will use it. In the extreame look at the common house gecko. Same story but would be able to use the very last few mins of light. same % of Cycle but thinner skin allows this.

UV does indeed decrease in power the further it travels. But no in the case of the sun really. its only lamps that have this downfall.

I believe that if we re-create a wild type environment in which they can live with a system that allows them to become fully energised as they would in the wild and we offer a good variety of food we are doing the best for the species.

there will always be exceptions and I cover this in the links I posted already.

I just think that with all the knowledge that we are all gathering we can now see how these amazing animals live and react. We know the issues regarding over and under supplimenation and the fact the NOONE seems to be able to tell how much to use and how to best get it into the animal. An over supplimentation is deadly and under provision is deadly. at least you cannot over supply D3 through UVB.

I have just finished a new book on this very subject which should be here late Feb. I will make a few copies avaialable FOC to select members.

To confrim my position however, Yes I run Arcadia Reptile and am responsible for the business but my passion is and always has been exotic birds and reptiles. I am paid to research wild behavior and habitats and find a way of re-creating this in captivity. I never want to be accused of marketering and cross branding. What we do should ALWAYS be world, mind changing, or im not doing my job properly! you wont see product for product sake from me!!! Just product designed to be effective and ethical with the animal and the very latest research in mind.

We do not sell direct so the advice I give is always animal first!!! If you decide that my advice makes sense and make a purchase that is up to the reader.

John


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## geckograham (Jan 22, 2012)

Chris18 said:


> So? His company also does research in to the reason people need his products, that's what marketing should be.


Wouldn't you agree that this research may be slanted in 1 particular direction from the start?


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

I will never manipulate science!

I cant speak for other brands but if i suggest something it is becasue I believe it. And I will only belive it after consulting Vets, Drs and Proffs.

i write for so many publications that i just cannot afford to be accused of making stuff up to make money.

I wont say anymore you need to make your minds up but the saying by which we live and trade is " All of the answers of great animal care are hidden in the wild animal" for me this answers every question. Look to the wild. Re-create this and you will be offering the best. Is there a sun in Afghan? then we should re-create this in the enclosure.

john




geckograham said:


> Wouldn't you agree that this research may be slanted in 1 particular direction from the start?


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## JadeM (Dec 30, 2012)

So many different opinions:banghead: 

Suppose we just have to go with our own personal preference lol. 
A little UVB exposure isn't going to harm my leo so I'm just going to try it out :2thumb:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

I Want a copy  :whistling2:







Arcadiajohn said:


> There is much mis-information in this trade. I have been in the trade for long enough to have seen some of the lies that were told in days gone by in the aim to find cheap, easy to look after animals. This does largely refer back to a not so ethical age where aimals were comodities that were traded without regard to the animal in the aim of making money alone.
> 
> So an animal was found that was commonly found in rock networks, that was easy to feed and very inclined to breed and all without biting too many children.
> 
> ...


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

geckograham said:


> Wouldn't you agree that this research may be slanted in 1 particular direction from the start?


Not at all in this case.
What the research has shown makes complete sense, although this is hardly a fool proof verification that what it shows is true it makes it more believable.
I've also seen the benefits from providing UVB and wide thermal gradients to CB crepuscular animals.


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## geckograham (Jan 22, 2012)

Arcadiajohn said:


> I will never manipulate science!
> 
> I cant speak for other brands but if i suggest something it is becasue I believe it. And I will only belive it after consulting Vets, Drs and Proffs.
> 
> ...


Please don't get me wrong John, I have the utmost respect for you and I'm a big fan of the company. Surely you can understand why I am asking for truly independent research though?


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## geckograham (Jan 22, 2012)

JadeM said:


> So many different opinions:banghead:
> 
> Suppose we just have to go with our own personal preference lol.
> A little UVB exposure isn't going to harm my leo so I'm just going to try it out :2thumb:


Yes there are but that is one of the best things about the hobby! We all want the same thing, what is best for our pets and that is what makes debates such as this one vital. I just hope it stays on track and doesn't go all RFUK on us!


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

The only thing that concerns me with UV lights is the brightness of them. People on here say 'it can't do any harm', but think about reptile eyes, they can be particularly sensitive in some reptiles such as leopard geckos. Could anyone tell me whether the bright lights omitted from the UV bulbs is harmful for reptile eyes? Particularly in reptiles where they live in darker areas, and may not necessarily have to deal with such bright lights in the wild?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Bexzini said:


> The only thing that concerns me with UV lights is the brightness of them. People on here say 'it can't do any harm', but think about reptile eyes, they can be particularly sensitive in some reptiles such as leopard geckos. Could anyone tell me whether the bright lights omitted from the UV bulbs is harmful for reptile eyes? Particularly in reptiles where they live in darker areas, and may not necessarily have to deal with such bright lights in the wild?


They can hide their heads and expose the rest of their bodies hun.
I have seen a few gecko species do it before.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> They can hide their heads and expose the rest of their bodies hun.
> I have seen a few gecko species do it before.


Exactly, UVB should be used in combination with shade gradients, don't provide this and yes UVB is dangerous.
Hiding away from UVB is a natural behaviour and not something we should be worried about or say we shouldn't use UVB because they're hiding away from it most the time.
All reptiles came from the same descendants, nocturnal/crepuscular reptiles evolved from diurnal descendants to avoid predators and be active in times where there is more food. This means most of their bodily functions will be the same so will rely on the same vitamins/minerals etc. if leopards geckos etc weren't using UVB in the wild there would be no reason to supplement d3 in captivity.
It's not necessary to provide UVB because of supplementation but we all know its more natural for them to regulate the d3 themselves.
It completely depends on what type of person you are whether you think UVB is a must because those that do have the mindset they want their animals to thrive to the best of your ability not just surivive IMO.


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

This whole subject is really interesting to me, but I am curious, at the moment I have my leo without lights (but crestie's lights illuminate tank for day/night cycle) I dust food with calcium/nutrobal alternatively (going to change to repashy's once the nutrobal is gone) and have calcium always available, but when I change to providing UVB, will I still need to provide the nutrobal or will calcium alone suffice?

I just want what's best


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Chris18 said:


> Exactly, UVB should be used in combination with shade gradients, don't provide this and yes UVB is dangerous.
> Hiding away from UVB is a natural behaviour and not something we should be worried about or say we shouldn't use UVB because they're hiding away from it most the time.
> All reptiles came from the same descendants, nocturnal/crepuscular reptiles evolved from diurnal descendants to avoid predators and be active in times where there is more food. This means most of their bodily functions will be the same so will rely on the same vitamins/minerals etc. if leopards geckos etc weren't using UVB in the wild there would be no reason to supplement d3 in captivity.
> It's not necessary to provide UVB because of supplementation but we all know its more natural for them to regulate the d3 themselves.
> It completely depends on what type of person you are whether you think UVB is a must because those that do have the mindset they want their animals to thrive to the best of your ability not just surivive IMO.


wow chris what a great explanation, wish we had a Really like button.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> wow chris what a great explanation, wish we had a Really like button.


Can't tell if you're being sarcastic :blush:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Chris18 said:


> Can't tell if you're being sarcastic :blush:


not sarcastic, its not a quality I often show, its nice to read things like that, it shows people don't just posess the knowledge but understand it too. : victory:


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> not sarcastic, its not a quality I often show, its nice to read things like that, it shows people don't just posess the knowledge but understand it too. : victory:


Sorry, it's hard to judge on forums LOL

On another note, while posting on another thread just now I've realised when I started providing UVB and thermal gradients for my cresteds they stopped climbing on the mesh upside down. I wonder if this is a behaviour aimed at trying to get higher to access UVB gradients that obviously don't exist but their instincts tell them if they go higher they may have access to heat/UVB.
I've seen it in Leos aswell which are typically terrestrial but climb exo terra backgrounds for 'no reason'.
I know this is hardly scientific but abnormal behaviour is linked to an action they cannot fulfil so they do something to essentially distract or try and achieve the same thing.

I know UVB is a very controversial topic but if you start thinking about it with an open mind there is so many benefits and it all just makes sense.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Chris is correct.

All of our advice is based on the effective use of the light and shade method. This is the practise of providing an upper level UVIndex similar to what is found on average in the country of origin over a portion of the viv. This is always at the hot end. The photogradient must always match the thermo.

So how do we do this? Well we select a lamp that provides the correct index at the basking height of your viv. We then choose a lamp that is roughly half to two thirds the length of the viv. The lamp and the all important reflector is fitted to the roof of the viv (ALWAYS) starting at the hot end. This then provides upper index at the hot end dropping off into cool and therefore shade at the cool end.

This allows self regualtion as in nature. An animal that has the ability to use light and the energy from light over a set gradient will always be able to via the power/gift of tetrachromacy.

The animals are the real experts! they will take what they need at that time all we have to do is provide the basics. Self regualtion takes over and the D3 cycle can start and go onto completion.

For light sensative animals i,e those with red eyes care can be taken. Hides can be placed. It is worth noting that red eye animals are very good at using UV and may need an even quicker time to do so. 

I would rather use a lamp for a hour a day than not at all. 

You will be shocked at how they regualte. My brother has a real deep red eye Leo. A real beauty but he will openly bask in an index of 3-4 for 4 or 5 hours a day.

If it was uncomfortable or damaging itself it would go down the cool end or into the hide but it decides not to.

john


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## yuesaur (Aug 29, 2011)

Arcadiajohn said:


> Chris is correct.
> 
> All of our advice is based on the effective use of the light and shade method. This is the practise of providing an upper level UVIndex similar to what is found on average in the country of origin over a portion of the viv. This is always at the hot end. The photogradient must always match the thermo.
> 
> ...


i've heard many a thing about albinos.
i have a tremper albino leopard gecko as well as a SHTE leo, both live in a 3foot viv, and uvb is a 6% arcadia t5 which has just been replaced as the year is up for it.
so since putting uv in 13months ago, the only difference in my albinos behaviour is that now there is uv provided she often comes out into the opening in the evenings for 10 mins or so. 
its not damaged her eyes as far as i can tell, her aim on food is just as good, if anything my albino is more healthier with the uvb i've supplied.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

yes Chris it is.

The most transmissive part of the animal is the soft underbelly. Animals being able to see UV and its powergradients will move the body into the area of most effect. This shows with animals climbing as they would in the wild to find a higher index. 

This is also shown in mesh topped vivs where underpowered systems are used. They will get right under the lamp and hang upside down desperatly trying to energise under the lack. They also jump at lamps trying to get closer and the even worse sit on lamps just trying to energise.

We do find very many keepers write in and say that this behaviour has stopped from the day that they set up a well researched and effective upper level gradient. Lamp jumping, hanging upside down and sitting on these lamps just isnt needed as the animal is fully energised from the top down as in nature.

the more you look at tetrachromacy and the amazing array of choices that it allows in the wild the more you will be shcoked at the sheer brilliance of reptiles.

John






Chris18 said:


> Sorry, it's hard to judge on forums LOL
> 
> On another note, while posting on another thread just now I've realised when I started providing UVB and thermal gradients for my cresteds they stopped climbing on the mesh upside down. I wonder if this is a behaviour aimed at trying to get higher to access UVB gradients that obviously don't exist but their instincts tell them if they go higher they may have access to heat/UVB.
> I've seen it in Leos aswell which are typically terrestrial but climb exo terra backgrounds for 'no reason'.
> ...


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## yuesaur (Aug 29, 2011)

Arcadiajohn said:


> yes Chris it is.
> 
> The most transmissive part of the animal is the soft underbelly. Animals being able to see UV and its powergradients will move the body into the area of most effect. This shows with animals climbing as they would in the wild to find a higher index.
> 
> ...



since where on the subject of uvb

John, will you be making anything like this:
Exo Terra Dual Top Canopy 45cm - Surrey Pet Supplies

i know you already have compact t5 canopies, but will you be making any 'dual' or 'all in one' canopy tops? like exo-terra have done.
its for my crestie when she grows up a bit, and id love a t5 uvb and a heatbulb in an all-in-one canopy system. 

if not, will that canopy be able to hold a low uvb % arcadia t8?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

yuesaur said:


> they are more Crepuscular than nocturnal, its thought now. mine are up in the morning and are awake around 8/9pm at night usually.
> 
> and my viv WITH uv.
> image


That viv is fab! 
now come and do mine. :2thumb:


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## yuesaur (Aug 29, 2011)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> That viv is fab!
> now come and do mine. :2thumb:


do i have to? -sulks-


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

our canopy is true HOT5 Vivarium Canopy T5/Compact Lamp : Arcadia Reptile

it is 3 or 4 times as bright as a T8 type fitting. but electroincs do not like heat! so i have no plans on doing one with built in heat as yet in this format. It just isnt safe.

It is far better to run it all as seperates as at leats you can use a stat then.

They are HOT5 and cannot run T8s. but you use wither 6% or 12% UVB lamps in them. 

The Arcadia units either canopy or slimline Vivarium Canopy T5/Compact Lamp : Arcadia Reptile or the new power UVFlood D3 UV Flood Lamp : Arcadia Reptile do all come with all you need as plug and play. You get all the electronics the reflector and the lamp for FREE.

john

john



yuesaur said:


> since where on the subject of uvb
> 
> John, will you be making anything like this:
> Exo Terra Dual Top Canopy 45cm - Surrey Pet Supplies
> ...


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

yuesaur said:


> do i have to? -sulks-


I am hoping to get a new gecko stack soon, these white things are driving me mad, polystyreine and backgrounds for me don't work and mine have about 4 hides and not much use of the height. lol expanding foam though i have good results. :2thumb:


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## geckograham (Jan 22, 2012)

Sorry to repeat myself but does providing UVB remove the need for supplementation?


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

geckograham said:


> Sorry to repeat myself but does providing UVB remove the need for supplementation?


I'm pretty sure it doesn't because lamps haven't reached the point of duplicating the strength of natural UVB so supplementation of D3 is still needed.


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## yuesaur (Aug 29, 2011)

Arcadiajohn said:


> our canopy is true HOT5 Vivarium Canopy T5/Compact Lamp : Arcadia Reptile
> 
> it is 3 or 4 times as bright as a T8 type fitting. but electroincs do not like heat! so i have no plans on doing one with built in heat as yet in this format. It just isnt safe.
> 
> ...


lol i actually forgot about the heat and thermostat lol........
ill go with the canopy for t5's you've done and put a basking spot in seperately then
thanks :2thumb:



Salazare Slytherin said:


> I am hoping to get a new gecko stack soon, these white things are driving me mad, polystyreine and backgrounds for me don't work and mine have about 4 hides and not much use of the height. lol expanding foam though i have good results. :2thumb:



patience my friend. patience.

i hate expanding foam, its just as uncontrollable as my morning waking up hair is. 
get the poly, chip away at bits of it. stick them together with cocktail sticks, then glue em together with no more nails. let it dry, use 3 layers of ready made floor tile grout, letting them dry between each layer. then spray paint a base colour on, then dry brush the detail, then yacht varnish it to seal. simples.
even a blonde like me can do it :whistling2:


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## geckograham (Jan 22, 2012)

Chris18 said:


> I'm pretty sure it doesn't because lamps haven't reached the point of duplicating the strength of natural UVB so supplementation of D3 is still needed.


Thanks for the reply. So do you think as technology advances supplementation will become a thing of the past?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

yuesaur said:


> lol i actually forgot about the heat and thermostat lol........
> ill go with the canopy for t5's you've done and put a basking spot in seperately then
> thanks :2thumb:
> 
> ...


I will happily set them on fire (really) I reluctantly was forced to bring these vivs with me when I moved I was let down on a much nicer beech coloured one so still looking if I find one il deff be doing something.


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

geckograham said:


> Sorry to repeat myself but does providing UVB remove the need for supplementation?


Nope I don't think it does. Things like Repashy Calcium + and Nutrabol contains other vitamins and minerals that are often deficient in live food (vitamin A, E and some minerals like calcium). These deficiencies can cause real problems so I wouldn't take supplementation away completely (especially calcium!) - I would personally just provide it less often when using UVB to prevent D3 overdosing.


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## Kuja (Dec 14, 2011)

geckograham said:


> Thanks for the reply. So do you think as technology advances supplementation will become a thing of the past?


we can only hope! The lizard knows how much uv it needs for the d3 cycle we don't, horrible feeling lol. Supplementation such as d3 will probs vanish as long as people move with the times, but calcium never will(or should, it gets removed as waste from what i remember unless more feeders, and a better understanding of gutloading follows the same route lol). 

As for the topic, as it stands it is not 'needed' as supplementation fills in the gap, but you got to wonder why do we need to supplements? There is obviously something missing otherwise mbd would not be a problem with leo's.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

There is still a need for dietary supplimentation mainly because we cant replicate the wild diet. We simply dont know what they eat and how much. We certainly dont know the effect of transferred minerals from the gut of prey sources, we dont know the mineral content of the dirt and sand on which they live and get in the mouth when feeding. We dont know the mineral content of the water and so on. So its impossible to re-create a truely wild diet at the moment. Maybe in 10 years we will alll look back and think "goodness i cant believe we used to feed them those" 

So Ca must always be available. Ca with added D3 can be reduced if you have provided the animal with a fully working photogradient.

we then start to think about vit E and A and the real headache starts!

john


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