# OBT RCF or normal orange?



## samhack

Can both be bred together or do you need the same form?

I have only seen the orange form so actually have nothing to compare my girl to, so how much difference is there?

My girl










I presume she is the normal colour form as she is a orange colour.


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## Dr3d

P. murinus (usambara)


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## samhack

Dr3d said:


> P. murinus (usambara)


I take it usambara is the normal form? Wow I sound like a noob. These are the little things I overlook


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## selina20

samhack said:


> I take it usambara is the normal form? Wow I sound like a noob. These are the little things I overlook


No normal colour form is the normal one lol


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## samhack

selina20 said:


> No normal colour form is the normal one lol


Ok I'm having a dense day. I just assumed the red form would be, well more red.

Thanks for putting up with me guys. I just should of stayed in bed today.


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## malky201

I thought the ncf was kinda greyish?


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## Poxicator

There are 4 forms of OBT, Orange, Red, NCF and Dark. Its very likely there are far more but they're not in the hobby.
Its possible to mate the different forms but there's rarely a need to mix them.

I'd say you have RCF - Red Colour Form - Usumbara orange baboon


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## 8and6

Pterinochilus murinus 'usumbara', 'RCF', 'OBT' previously known as P.spinifer (wrongly)
the deeper orange as you have there is the most common form in the UK hobby now, the NCF isnt as much so nowadays so i for one like to keep things separate so both geographical variants can be kept going instead of muddying things up.


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## samhack

Poxicator said:


> There are 4 forms of OBT, Orange, Red, NCF and Dark. Its very likely there are far more but they're not in the hobby.
> Its possible to mate the different forms but there's rarely a need to mix them.
> 
> I'd say you have RCF - Red Colour Form - Usumbara orange baboon


This was how she was labeled. I knew she was this locality, I just didn't have a clue as to the RCF being the usumbara locality. Wow I feel silly now.

Thanks for your help guys, I'm off to bury my head somewhere :blush:


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## selina20

I have a brick red murinus. Have no idea what that colourform is because RCF dont refer to them being completely red


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## 8and6

the colour is vastly variable (as it is in chordatus)
the NCF can range from almost lugardi tan to a yellowy, washed out version of the RCF and the RCF from that to brick red and there is almost every shade in between! lol

from what i've seen it's probably geographically variable (fish breeders term these as subspecies or locale variants and keep them separate)

H.lividum is another that shows these kind of variations, from pale slate grey/blue up to deep vivid blue (almost midnight blue).....in fact most species show colour variation based on where the are found


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## Willenium

As far as I know, the normal colour form originates from Mombasa. In my opinion it's pretty debatable that the orange form isn't also the red form, it may just be something as simple as humidity or just individual colour variance. Looking at photos isn't always reliable as they may have been manipulated.


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## Poxicator

To my understanding 
Deep orange/Red = Orange baboon (Usumbara)
Orange = Starburst baboon (Mombassa)
Pale orange/yellow/gold with broken black specles = NCF/TCF
Dark Grey/black = DCF


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## 8and6

Poxicator said:


> To my understanding
> Deep orange/Red = Orange baboon (Usumbara)
> Orange = Starburst baboon (Mombassa)
> Pale orange/yellow/gold with broken black specles = NCF/TCF
> Dark Grey/black = DCF


i thought that the DCF had been since id'd as Pterinochilus leetzi? or has that species been synonymous and taken into the murinus fold?
i was talking to Richard about the 'black' Pterinochilus at the BTS and he was saying it's either leetzi or chordatus, and the odds of it being leetzi in the hobby were next to zero


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## Poxicator

RG is the god of all things with baboon type fingers


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## Baldpoodle

wow those forms are completly different to how I know it, mind you I havn't kept myself updated on whats in the hobby though it hasn`t ever looked as there has been so much change.

I have only ever known them like this-


> *P. murinus TCF: typical colour form*
> _*Named after the colouration of the type, different pale beigecolouration, sometimes with a greenish sheen, long setae on legs and abdomen pale pink.*_
> 
> *P. murinus RCF: red colour form*
> _*Long and short setae red/orange, often sold as P. mamillatus or P. spp. "usambara" *_
> 
> *P. murinus UMV: Usambara Mountains variant*
> _*Probably a natural intergrade between TCF and RCF (but more close to TCF). Their coloration is more intensive yellow/pale orange than TCF. *_
> 
> *P. murinus DCF: dark colour form*
> _*Coloured general darkgrey, partial black. Carapace gold/yellow with dark radial striae - those are not as intensive as P. murinus TCF. Rarely seen and not in the hobby. The abdominal pattern are the same in all colour variations.*_


taken from Theraphosidae of Africa and the Middle East

Of course there are most likely 101 other intimidiate forms inbetween.

The only other I know of is the Mwangwamba one, but that just looks like another varrient of the TCF


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## 8and6

> P. murinus RCF: red colour form
> Long and short setae red/orange, often sold as P. mamillatus or P. spp. "usambara"


i thought you would have been in the hobby long enough to remember this being imported and sold as P.spinifer (albeit we now know this was wrongly so) from the late 90s till the very early 2000s? 



> P. murinus DCF: dark colour form
> Coloured general darkgrey, partial black. Carapace gold/yellow with dark radial striae - those are not as intensive as P. murinus TCF. Rarely seen and not in the hobby. The abdominal pattern are the same in all colour variations.


check out the description in SCHMIDT, G. E. W. (2002d). Eine neue Pterinochilus-Art aus Sambia (Theraphosidae: Harpactirinae). Tarantulas of the World 71: 3-7. for leetzi

Timo himself (the co-authour of the site you quote) disputes the validation of P.murinus DCF openly on The T Store, and a current discussion on FB with him confirms he hasnt updated the site since 2005, which was before the invalidation of P.murinus DCF


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## Baldpoodle

[email protected] said:


> i thought you would have been in the hobby long enough to remember this being imported and sold as P.spinifer (albeit we now know this was wrongly so) from the late 90s till the very early 2000s?


still see this even today!




[email protected] said:


> check out the description in SCHMIDT, G. E. W. (2002d). Eine neue Pterinochilus-Art aus Sambia (Theraphosidae: Harpactirinae). Tarantulas of the World 71: 3-7. for leetzi
> 
> Timo himself (the co-authour of the site you quote) disputes the validation of P.murinus DCF openly on The T Store, and a current discussion on FB with him confirms he hasnt updated the site since 2005, which was before the invalidation of P.murinus DCF


You know 99% of that web site was written by Ingo went (or so I am told by a reliable source) lol. Wouldn't even like to comment on the dcf as I have only ever seen a picture of one so if they are leetzi or not I really don't know or know enough about them to even guess. I was just commenting on the colour forms that I know and saying that all those others are very new to me, ie the orange and red etc. how about a few photos to show us these colour forms?


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## Oderus

I can't be arsed to follow up on it too much but was not Schmidt's _P. leetzi_ type a moult, TWSC still has it _P. murinus_ atm.

_P. leetzi_ Schmidt, 2002 = _P. murinus_ Pocock, 1897 (Gallon, 2008: 236).


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## Baldpoodle

[email protected] said:


> i thought that the DCF had been since id'd as Pterinochilus leetzi? or has that species been synonymous and taken into the murinus fold?
> *i was talking to Richard about the 'black' Pterinochilus at the BTS and he was saying it's either leetzi or chordatus*, and the odds of it being leetzi in the hobby were next to zero


eh? why would he say they could be leetzi when he syominized leetzi with murinus in 2008? yet another cock up?


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## Oderus

Baldpoodle said:


> eh? why would he say they could be leetzi when he syominized leetzi with murinus in 2008? yet another cock up?


Richard may have a better track record then some but nothing would surprise me, but he does have the female that Schmidt's moult came from so I would hope not, funny thing is Schmidt and Peters still say _P. murinus _RCF is _P. mamillatus_ but you could take the view some of these colour forums could be very isolated by now if there are 100's of miles between them.


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