# Want to get DWA expirence



## MolestedChimp (Sep 19, 2008)

What kind of expirence would i require to apply for a DWA licence. 

My dream snakes are vipers i love just about every kind but understand fully just how dangerous they are and that i am not even close to being able to own or keep one but i would like to know how to get started what kind of things should i try and do to get expirence i mean none of my friends are into this trade so i only realy get expirence with my own collection i don't know what more i can do

There is of course no such thing as a beginner snake when dealing with DWA but if i was to ask what one would be recomended as a starter ( viper wise ) what would you suggest studdying and reading up on ?


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

for my 2p worth................one of the arboreal species, not too big, reasonably even tempered (differs with species tho' avoid T puniceus, C purpureomaculatus) and not mentally fast to hook


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## LEdwards (Jan 6, 2009)

Maybe Atheris Squamigera (Green Bush Viper) would be worth reading up on. They dont get to big and their venom isnt too extreme. Still not a "starter" DWA but not something too mental


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## pythondave82 (Nov 14, 2007)

LEdwards said:


> Maybe Atheris Squamigera (Green Bush Viper) would be worth reading up on. They dont get to big and their venom isnt too extreme. Still not a "starter" DWA but not something too mental


Hi,

Your comments on Atheris venom are a little concerning, I appreciate you are trying to give advise (and you advised this species is not a starter) but actually how much have you read into this species venom?

Atheris venom is highly complex toxic venom, there has been at least one death recorded and I would consider a bite from any of the Atheris species a serious medical emergency, not to mention there is no established AV for them.

Out of any arboreal true vipers or pit vipers, Atheris is a species I would least like to be bitten by, I am aware of a bite that happened some time ago by _Atheris hispidus_, the bite victom im sure would paint you a picture you would not like and the effects were fairley serious.

I understand public forums will always generate various views on the subject in question due to various levels of experience, but when giving advice on venomous snakes, its always best to be sure the information you are providing is acurate.

Not a dig, I just don’t want to see anybody getting seriously injured.



Cheers,

Dave


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

pythondave82 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your comments on Atheris venom are a little concerning, I appreciate you are trying to give advise (and you advised this species is not a starter) but actually how much have you read into this species venom?
> 
> ...


I'd tend to agree a bite for an atheris is not something I'd be keen on.....

Speak to hot keepers for a long time before deciding where your interest is taking you.

Graeme


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## milsom (Nov 14, 2008)

I know of a bite from Atheris chlorechis, in this instance the immediate effects were surprisingly severe, and the long term post bite history has been problematic.

I think the recipient of the bite was also of the attitude that Atheris were "easy".


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

thats a bad mindframe to get into, recipe for disaster


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## ScottGB (May 12, 2008)

I think I'm in the same shoes as you?
I have no friends that have a DWA, so can't get any help mentoring.
So the only way I can really perpare is to get a very fast and aggrassive snake. Like coach whip snakes, tiger rat snakes, american races, so can teach myself to get around any problem with out getting bitten.
There is a course in york for DWA snake handling, so I'll hopfully get some good advice threw that.
But if i keep getting bit i won't push any further on the idea.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

ScottGB said:


> I think I'm in the same shoes as you?
> I have no friends that have a DWA, so can't get any help mentoring.
> So the only way I can really perpare is to get a very fast and aggrassive snake. Like coach whip snakes, tiger rat snakes, american races, so can teach myself to get around any problem with out getting bitten.
> There is a course in york for DWA snake handling, so I'll hopfully get some good advice threw that.
> But if i keep getting bit i won't push any further on the idea.


Its been said before but I'll say it again, why do people think that fast agressive snakes like coachwhip give you ANY idea how to deal with a venomous species?

There is no comparison........period!


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## ScottGB (May 12, 2008)

I'd like to get rattlers, coral cobras up to gaboon vipers. Non of which act the same. But the advice I got was if you can stop a very fast colubrid that wants to kill you everytime you go passed the viv. you should be able to stop a slower viper. An that the advice I got off some one I trust.
An if you can't get a mentor its the next best thing. 
How did you get experience?????
An I wouldn't trust teaching myself on any of the snakes mentioned above or other snake's like pygmy rattler, eyelash viper or copperhead's. That I've heard would be good starters.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

ScottGB said:


> I'd like to get rattlers, coral cobras up to gaboon vipers. Non of which act the same. But the advice I got was if you can stop a very fast colubrid that wants to kill you everytime you go passed the viv. you should be able to stop a slower viper.


Thats a very questionable view!

I'm sure others will have input on this idea but the point is you try not to put yourself into a position where you need to " stop a very fast" snake.

Experience is not something that can be taught, it is picked up or learned.

You can be taught the basics of husbandry and of good practice though where you use advice is up to you as an individual.

Mentoring is in theory good but in reality hard to obtain and harder to value but thats a whole complicated issue.

This subject seems to regularly appear on the forum so I'll leave it to others to comment further.


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## pythondave82 (Nov 14, 2007)

ScottGB said:


> I'd like to get rattlers, coral cobras up to gaboon vipers. Non of which act the same. But the advice I got was if you can stop a very fast colubrid that wants to kill you everytime you go passed the viv. you should be able to stop a slower viper. An that the advice I got off some one I trust.
> An if you can't get a mentor its the next best thing.
> How did you get experience?????
> An I wouldn't trust teaching myself on any of the snakes mentioned above or other snake's like pygmy rattler, eyelash viper or copperhead's. That I've heard would be good starters.


 
Its those sluggish looking gaboons and the long striking lunge of the rattlers that catches you out my friend, no amount of rat snake training will prepare you for, you need to become familiar with using snake handling equipment, practice removing water bowels with tongs and keeping your fingers away at all times, complacency is always waiting around the corner for you.

Cobras, rat snakes and other fast moving snakes keep you on your toes most of the time, the calm looking eyelash viper sits and waits until your clumsy finger gets within strike range, if it can pluck a bird from the sky it can own your finger for a split second!

Dave


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## ScottGB (May 12, 2008)

pythondave82 said:


> Its those sluggish looking gaboons and the long striking lunge of the rattlers that catches you out my friend, no amount of rat snake training will prepare you for, you need to become familiar with using snake handling equipment, practice removing water bowels with tongs and keeping your fingers away at all times, complacency is always waiting around the corner for you.
> 
> Cobras, rat snakes and other fast moving snakes keep you on your toes most of the time, the calm looking eyelash viper sits and waits until your clumsy finger gets within strike range, if it can pluck a bird from the sky it can own your finger for a split second!
> 
> Dave


I'd never (knowingly) take any risks with any venomous, not even my FWC and thats only mildly venomous.
Its all about the point, learning to use that handling equipment, and finding ways to do all the day to day care for the snake with out getting bit. 
Only when I'm really compitant doing that for years would I think about getting a DWA. 
Then I'd still get mangroves before, getting something like a pygmy rattler, oc copperhead.


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## The T Lord (Mar 28, 2009)

Never kept or want to keep DWA snakes, but surely a Mangrove Snake, which used to be on the list, but not any longer, so i guess it would be good training?
John


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

ScottGB said:


> I'd never (knowingly) take any risks with any venomous, not even my FWC and thats only mildly venomous.
> Its all about the point, learning to use that handling equipment, and finding ways to do all the day to day care for the snake with out getting bit.
> Only when I'm really compitant doing that for years would I think about getting a DWA.
> *Then I'd still get mangroves before, getting something like a pygmy rattler, oc copperhead*.


That's a good move, get an arboreal snake which tends to telegraph its intention to strike to prepare you for terrestrial snakes, which, in the case of the Copperhead, probably won't:2thumb:


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

The T Lord said:


> Never kept or want to keep DWA snakes, but surely a Mangrove Snake, which used to be on the list, but not any longer, so i guess it would be good training?
> John


 
(Jumps up and down a lot) I really, really wish that people would get out of this "trainer" snake mentality, it's like saying that a bloody Nissan Micra is a good trainer car for a Pagani Zonda!

There is no snake that will magically prepare you for dealing with a venomous snake, the only thing that will do that is common sense, self-discipline, listening to and, where possible, watching others and a good level of general herp experience.
Six months or however long with a mangrove or ATB or whatever will only prove that you can keep that particular snake, it means Jack Sh*t when it comes to a venomous one, other than possibly developing hook technique, but then that would only count for arboreals, and again would mean squat if you decided to buy a large bodied terrestrial.


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## MolestedChimp (Sep 19, 2008)

Thank's for all the info guys but the main point i was trying to ask was

if you have never worked with any hot species or know anyone with any hots who can say you have helped out at times how can you possibly apply for a DWA licence, can i simply say all i have kepy is ATB's Sanzinia's ect and then show them i have done my homework on the species and that i am able to take care of a hot the wya it should be done ect


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

one of my mentores among others was John Foden and he suggested i try handling False water Cobra's (if you can hook them you can hook almost anything my own opinion/experience) and treat them purely as hot herps as they do in the states, i had 3 one big dopey male an big bonkers female and a juvy female equally nuts, which did nail me good and proper when teaching Woburn safari park keepers a few years ago and although not long lasting did affect the bit area with localised swelling and numbness, anyway. my theory is if you dont have someone to mentor you on a regular basis then priactice with something with some clout and legal to own and treat them as hot, this way you can get your technique down to a tee all your cleaning and feeding duties will become smooth and you are less likely to make mistakes. i have been away from herps for around 8/9 years and will be re appliying for my DWA licence once again, but before i do i have been practicing with falsies and a lovely mangrove which to my supprise is no longer on DWA but were 10 years ago when i used to keep them. many people may dissagree with what i have said but this is just my own experiences and not gospel, as with all information you get on forums take away from what people have said what is relevent to your situation and after avaluating what everybody has said you can then usualy make up your own mind and this will be what you have to go with, when you get mentored by someone they are teaching you there way, you have to cumfortable with what you do and modify how you handle your animals....remember there are many ways to handle hot herps but as long as it safe then that is really the main thing


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## axlandslash44x (Jan 3, 2008)

Realy sick of some peoples attitudes here

the OP asked simple questions and every one attacks him...

I dont understand this, you had to start somewhere aswell?!??!?

some people act like only they are good enough to keep venomous snakes.

Some one who is asking these questions - is surely doing the right thing - can you not just help him instead of jumping on your high horse??

I do not keep venomous - i dont have the knowledge - or the experience with enough varying types of snake.

I am under the believe that two things with a possible third are key to moving towards DWA. (from my reading and questions)

a) get years of experience working with a wide variety of snakes - treating some of them - preferably WC or angries like its a dangerous animal. so you get used to no contact and removing water bowls etc etc etc - I have two years experience with Royals - have had contact with corns, mexican black, BRB, BCC, flying snake, burmese. I would be looking to expand on my collection to encorporate some fiesty snakes over the next 2-3 years before considering DWA. People that say this does not prepare you - WELL HOW DID YOU PREPARE YOURSELFE!?!??!?!?! it certainly would help i believe 

b) get masses of knowledge - read - ask - watch - LEARN

c) mentor would be great - but not realistic

You guys have alot of knowledge - one would assume - becuase you keep DWA.

Can you not share it? give some pointers on how you started?


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## axlandslash44x (Jan 3, 2008)

Good post leecb0


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

MolestedChimp said:


> Thank's for all the info guys but the main point i was trying to ask was
> 
> if you have never worked with any hot species or know anyone with any hots who can say you have helped out at times how can you possibly apply for a DWA licence, can i simply say all i have kepy is ATB's Sanzinia's ect and then show them i have done my homework on the species and that i am able to take care of a hot the wya it should be done ect


To answer your question, it is not essential for the application for a DWAL to evidence experience with venomous snakes. The criteria for issue of the license is that the animal(s) are kept securely and danger to the general public is avoided. The vet will/should ensure that the living conditions provided are satisfactory for the needs of the animal(s). Some L.A's want you to prove that you have had experience with hots, some don't. Some want to know the ins and outs of a duck's a*se about you as a person, some don't. As long as you have done your research on the animal(s) you want to keep, can evidence that you have a reasonable length and spread of experience with snakes and demonstrate that you have taken the appropriate steps to minimise risk to the public and are providing the necessary husbandry requirements for the animal(s) you shouldn't have any problems. That said, if you are unlucky enough to live in an area where, in the opinion of the LA, the very fact that anyone would want to keep venomous snakes makes them totally unsuitable to keep venomous snakes, then you can expect to be jumping through some very expensive and ridiculous hoops in order to get your license.


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

axlandslash44x said:


> Good post leecb0


few thought you were having a go at me then......lol
further to what you have said, it is true there will always be those who think that unless you have kept snakes for years that you cant keep hots but in my experiance there are people who have kept snakes for years but would not be able to handle the hot stuff then there are those who are young and fairly new to keeping snakes but have an aptitude to take things in and become very good DWA keepers this comes down to being able to take things in and good mentoring and most of all very good understanding of what they are taking on.
im not into taking part in keyboard wars i keep myself to myself in the herp world nowadays but i am very willing to give advice and pass on my own experiance and if more herpers do this then the hobby will only get better and the anti,s wont have any ammo to fire at us. it will only take a couple of hobby DWA handlers to, shall we say, get it wrong, and it will get harder to obtain licences, my advice to anyone considering getting a DWAL would be to find someone willing to teach of which there are many in the UK.
I have held a licence and know my council very well and could get my licence reissued as i have moved house and have just turned my double garage into my reptile room in view of getting my licence, but as i have not had any hot's for about 8 years i need, for my own, piece of mind to get back into handeling that type of stuff again hence i have had a few rear fangs and i have been "playing" with a friends cobras etc and when I feel i am ready i will then apply...will proberbly be around the next Hamm trip.....lol
all the best to every one
Keep safe
Lee


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## ScottGB (May 12, 2008)

leecb0 said:


> one of my mentores among others was John Foden and he suggested i try handling False water Cobra's (if you can hook them you can hook almost anything my own opinion/experience) and treat them purely as hot herps as they do in the states, i had 3 one big dopey male an big bonkers female and a juvy female equally nuts, which did nail me good and proper when teaching Woburn safari park keepers a few years ago and although not long lasting did affect the bit area with localised swelling and numbness, anyway. my theory is if you dont have someone to mentor you on a regular basis then priactice with something with some clout and legal to own and treat them as hot, this way you can get your technique down to a tee all your cleaning and feeding duties will become smooth and you are less likely to make mistakes. i have been away from herps for around 8/9 years and will be re appliying for my DWA licence once again, but before i do i have been practicing with falsies and a lovely mangrove which to my supprise is no longer on DWA but were 10 years ago when i used to keep them. many people may dissagree with what i have said but this is just my own experiences and not gospel, as with all information you get on forums take away from what people have said what is relevent to your situation and after avaluating what everybody has said you can then usualy make up your own mind and this will be what you have to go with, when you get mentored by someone they are teaching you there way, you have to cumfortable with what you do and modify how you handle your animals....remember there are many ways to handle hot herps but as long as it safe then that is really the main thing


I treat me false water cobra as fully hot but I still wouldn't trust myself with anything hotter till I've well and truly honed my hook skills with something very fast an snappy. 
But its good to get some thing constructive for once.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

It's not just about being able to juggle a fast snake on a hook. Do you always use a trap box/transfer bin for your falsie? Do you always use long tongs for removing the water bowl/poop etc. Is every aspect of your dealing with that snake developed as if it were a "genuine" hot? If not, then you are effectively p*ssing in the wind and doing half a job.


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Mangroves are about as useful to teach you to handle some venomous snakes as that dance machine in the arcades is at teaching you to dance!

They improve your awareness sure but having handled a few quicker venomous now they are slow as s**t.


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## gtm15782 (Aug 24, 2008)

Hi
I have no experience with DWA species and not sure I ever will have but I do know a guy called Rich that owns Shropshire Exotics in Telford and I believe he gives classes in handling DWA species. He uses a King Cobra that has had its venom glands removed so you get to handle a snake that would be able to kill you with 1 bite. 
I'm not sure exactly what the class entails and how long it is etc but the number for the shop is 01952822133. 
Its a great shop and he knows his stuff so give him a call and see what he says.
A warning though its not cheap but lets face it getting into DWA never is.


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## ScottGB (May 12, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> It's not just about being able to juggle a fast snake on a hook. Do you always use a trap box/transfer bin for your falsie? Do you always use long tongs for removing the water bowl/poop etc. Is every aspect of your dealing with that snake developed as if it were a "genuine" hot? If not, then you are effectively p*ssing in the wind and doing half a job.


I haven't got a trap box, which I would have thought you'd be essential of mamba's or cobras. But for the normal poop removal I take him out an in a temporary tub. When I change the water I've got a perspex shield and its always close to the viv doors. 
Its just all the handling stuff in not confident enough to go fully hot. I'd want to get something extra feisty. And I need to get used to pinning the snakes head and tubing one with something that really wants to kill me.
Only after years after not getting bit by a snake like that would I think I'm confident getting one.
Even though most of the species that I'm after aren't known for being constantly agressive. An as you said before like with copperheads, won't give one sign that their p*ssed off.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

You could go for years with a very p*ssed off black racer and never get nalied, then get bitten by your first hot through sheer sh*t bad luck. It's more a mindset than technical ability, self-discipline, common sense, a sound knowledge of the species and wanting it for the right reasons.........
Doesn't matter what course you do, who's "mentored" you, at some point you will be dealing with your first hot snake, on your own, and snakes aren't good at recognising certificates of courses attended, nor do they give a cr*p about who has mentored you, all they care about is whether you are scaring them, p*ssing them off or look/smell like food, you need to be able to spot this and act accordingly.

I don't put myself across as any sort of expert on the subject, far from it. I have made mistakes and am still learning.


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## ScottGB (May 12, 2008)

Course well even experienced experts get caught out, and unfortunately die in this hobbie. And to get the mind set your on about I would have thought could only be really gained though careful monitored experienced with the animals.
Yet I've seen a part of a documentory about a lad in the US who gained the hours working with the animals in a zoo to get the experience need to get a license. Then was bitten once at work and twice at home by a Gaboon Viper, then had his animals taken off him. 
So who knows???? 
How did you start working with the animals????
Please PM if you don't want to go into in on here.


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## Azemiops (May 1, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> ..
> Doesn't matter what course you do, who's "mentored" you, at some point you will be dealing with your first hot snake, on your own, and snakes aren't good at recognising certificates of courses attended, nor do they give a cr*p about who has mentored you, all they care about is whether you are scaring them, p*ssing them off or look/smell like food, you need to be able to spot this and act accordingly.
> 
> I don't put myself across as any sort of expert on the subject, far from it. I have made mistakes and am still learning.


Hi Stuart,

Surely it does matter what courses youve been and whos mentored you. You will be far better equipped to deal with a venomous species on your own if you have been on DWA course or have had experience with a DWA license holder. If youve been on a course or been mentored, then that should mean you have had exposure to venomous species and will know how to deal with the species you are keeping accordingly. In my opinion its the people who 'jump in at the deep end', and get a venomous species without having any prior experience, that are most likely to encounter problems.

Cheers, Tom


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Azemiops said:


> Hi Stuart,
> 
> 
> Surely it does matter what courses youve been and whos mentored you. You will be far better equipped to deal with a venomous species on your own if you have been on DWA course or have had experience with a DWA license holder. If youve been on a course or been mentored, then that should mean you have had exposure to venomous species and will know how to deal with the species you are keeping accordingly. In my opinion its the people who 'jump in at the deep end', and get a venomous species without having any prior experience, that are most likely to encounter problems.
> ...


 Hi Tom,
It does matter if you are able to absorb the information given and utilise it, however it makes no difference if the person getting mentored/on the course is thinking of it as a "tick in the box" towards getting licensed rather than a means of benefitting from soemone elses experience, when someone is watching and assessing you, you are far more likely to "do it right", It's the day in, day out repetition of the same practices that will catch out the unwary keeper, that's speaking from experience. I got caught out. To use an analogy, (almost) everyone on the roads has done a course and passed a test, but how many of those are actually safe/suitable to be driving?
I would agree that it would be foolish to "jump in at the deep end", but then a person with the right attitude and mindset to keeping venomous animals is not likely to do that anyway. The point I was trying to make was that mentoring and courses, whilst valid and useful, should not be seen as the be all and end all to getting into keeping hots, but as an insight into the practices and possible pitfalls to get you started, in much the same way as we really only start learning to drive once we have passed the test, so we only really start learning properly once we have a venomous animal of our own and the process is ongoing.

I would hope that anyone reading this thread does not think I advocate "jumping in at the deep end". I just get the impression that there is a thought process in this forum along the lines of "I've been mentored/done X's course, therefore I'm ready for anything" or "I've had a mangrove/ATB/falsie, now I am ready for a hot"


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## Azemiops (May 1, 2008)

Hi Stuart,

Thats fair enough. From reading the thread it appeared to me that you were trying to talk the OP out of getting experience. 
My feelings towards obtaining a license is that getting experience with non-venomous aggresive species is a good first step. It will help to get you in the frame of mind that once the enclosure is open, your aim is to not get bitten by the animal inside. After that, try finding a DWA license holder that is willing to give you some hands-on experience, or at the very least allow you to watch them working with their animals so you get an idea of handling techniques and daily routines. Once you feel you are ready (i guess there is no time frame to this), you are able to start the process of applying for the license. 
Of course, i realise that none of this is neccessary, but i feel this is a good way forward.

cheers, Tom


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

totally agree. To apply for a DWAL with no demonstrable range of experience is throwing money away.


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## ScottGB (May 12, 2008)

The way I was thinking as a non DWA keeper but I'm wanting to gain the experience, was to get something very fast and nasty as the first step.
If I keep getting caught out I won't go any further with it as keeping DWA in mind. And I'd need to go bite free for years and treating that snake as fully hot before I think I'm heppy to go further.
Bearing in mind if i then get caught out by a non venomous snake while using a hook, when I have a dwa snake, I would really have to double think about what I'm doing and If its really for me.
The course I've heard about in york is to just get pointers and tips of what to improve on and things to think about, noting that the things learned on these courses could save my life or even better stopping me getting into a bad situation. It wouldn't be to tick a box for dwa, and thats the same with if I can find a mentor, And I'm not counting on it.

Fingers crossed!!


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## AllAddersArePuffs (Mar 25, 2009)

What does everyone think is the right age to start DWA 'training'? I've come to the mindset that as early as possible is best, considering you're never put out of your depth.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Minimum age for a DWA aplication is 18, there's no law regarding maintaining them as far as age goes, it all depends upon the individual.


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