# Article I wrote Re: Reptile Shows



## TWGarland (May 24, 2009)

Below is an article i wrote for BEKS regarding Reptile and Amphibian shows in the UK. Its far from perfect but I thought i'd post it here as im looking for constructive criticism

Cheers,



Events and shows regarding exotic animals are currently growing in popularity within the UK. Already a huge success in the United States, enthusiasts here look to follow suit. With increasing popularity however, has come increasing scrutiny. We look to address some of the issues currently being raised by animal welfare groups such as the APA (Animal Protection Agency) and IAR (International Animal Rescue) in their mission to put an end to all shows and events of this type.
Recent reports in the media as a result of criticisms by the APA and IAR have resulted in headlines such as ‘Large Scale suffering at reptile market’ (IAR website, http://www.internationalanimalrescue.org/news/2009/aug09-11.shtml 2009). We feel this to be a miss-informed statement and sensationalist. Here we hope here to explain our reasoning behind this. 

*The Issues*

Some have described Exotics shows as ‘A brisk trade in wild animals’ and we feel here an essential point is being missed. Virtually no hobbyists these days own wild caught animals (WC), and in fact captive bred (CB) individuals are already widespread within the industry. According to CITIES to qualify as a ‘captive-bred’ animal, certain very strict conditions must be fulfilled in their entirety: 

The animals must be born in a controlled environment.
*The parental breeding stock must:*

Have been established in a manner not detrimental to the survival of the species in the wild
Must be maintained without addition of animals from the wild.
Must be managed in a manner that has been demonstrated to be capable of reliably producing second-generation offspring (F2) in a controlled environment.
For all but a few of the rarer species these standards are already well established. More popular species of exotic animals have already been bred from captive stock for generations, in some cases resulting in ‘morphs’ of animals showing colours and patterns never before seen in the wild, similar to breeds of domesticated cat and dog.
Another point raised with regards to suffering at shows refers to ‘tiny’ tubs used as housing being unsuitable, often with no food or water provided. Firstly it should be realized that in most cases these housing arrangements are only temporary for the duration of the event. ‘Tiny tubs’ to the uneducated eye may seem cruel, but it’s only when informed as to the nature of the animal, for example the secretive and naturally sedate snake (Royal Python - classic example) that these conditions seem kinder than the provision of larger enclosures.

*Mitigation*
It is clear that something needs to be done to satisfy the uneducated about these shows and we feel this may be done relatively simply by implementing some simple regulations. The provision of water for all animals at all times is one such point. Although some of the more popular species (Bearded Dragons and Uromastix for example) of lizard, as desert species, only need water very infrequently, it would put minds at rest before unfair conclusions may be drawn. Another point is in relation to the provision of adequate feed. It is important to realise that for snakes it is imperative that they should not be fed before or straight after being moved. This is to maintain high standards of welfare rather than the opposite. 

*Legality*
A quote from the DEFRA website with regards to Pet Fairs:
“There is some confusion over the interpretation of existing law about the licensing of pet fairs. In addition, some people have concerns about welfare standards at these events. 
Because of these two factors, the governments is proposing to modernise the law by prohibiting the sale of animals, where this is part of a business, to members of the public at pet fairs. Those events where there is either no selling of animals to members of the public; or *where there is selling of animals but where it is not in the course of a business, such as hobbyists selling excess stock, will continue to take place without the requirement to be licensed*”.
http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/act/petsales_fairs.htm

*In Conclusion*
Although recent reports from animal welfare organisations in our opinion are unfounded, we believe that with a few simple regulations the fears of some can be put to rest. It is in the interest of the exotics industry to address any issues raised, mitigate them and in some cases compromise, if the success of Exotic Animal Shows is to continue into the future.


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## Pete Q (Dec 4, 2007)

I'm only just reading it, but right away, APA are animal rights and not welfare, this is important. Hope that helps, I'll carry on reading now. :2thumb:


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## Pete Q (Dec 4, 2007)

It's a good job. The only thing I would want to add is that it's the reptile clubs that are the experts in this field.

Also, would we have water for the reptile or for the anti ? understanding that reptiles can go without water for the day with no worrys to their welfare.

Well done. :no1:


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## TWGarland (May 24, 2009)

Pete Q said:


> I'm only just reading it, but right away, APA are animal rights and not welfare, this is important. Hope that helps, I'll carry on reading now. :2thumb:


Thanks very much, i'll make the changes needed. Any further input you have i'd be glad to hear it. I'm just trying to help in anyway i can really.

Thanks


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## Pete Q (Dec 4, 2007)

Glad you made the point about tubs.


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## Pete Q (Dec 4, 2007)

Don't worry about the water point, I've re'read it and I think you've explained well.


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## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

Well done on putting the effort into writing an article 

There are just a couple of points i'll comment on:



TWGarland said:


> Virtually no hobbyists these days own wild caught animals (WC), and in fact captive bred (CB) individuals are already widespread within the industry.


This quote was the one I picked out straight away... If you don't have any stats to back this quote up, then i'd alter it - maybe say something like 'the most popular species are captive bred'? For example, corn snakes, bearded dragons and leopard geckos (though I know you do say this later). You only have to look at the stock lists of a lot of reptile shops to see that a large number of WC (or possibly CF at best) animals are still imported and sold, so I feel it would be very very difficult to back this quote up.




TWGarland said:


> More popular species of exotic animals have already been bred from captive stock for generations, in some cases resulting in ‘morphs’ of animals showing colours and patterns never before seen in the wild, similar to breeds of domesticated cat and dog.


To be pedantic (though it's best to come from friend instead of foe! :2thumb I wouldn't compare it to breeds of dog, as dog breeds show much more drastic variation in size and shape (with the health problems to show for it), whereas with reptile morphs it is pretty much only colours. So i'd say maybe compare it more to cats/hamsters/mice/rats/guinea pigs?

No offence intended! I hope it's helped to have another perspective


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

TWGarland said:


> Events and shows regarding exotic animals are currently growing in popularity within the UK.


Are they ? Do you have stats from the show organisers to back this up ?



TWGarland said:


> Virtually no hobbyists these days own wild caught animals (WC), and in fact captive bred (CB) individuals are already widespread within the industry.


Again ... proof ? stats ?



TWGarland said:


> Another point raised with regards to suffering at shows refers to ‘tiny’ tubs used as housing being unsuitable, often with no food or water provided. Firstly it should be realized that in most cases these housing arrangements are only temporary for the duration of the event. ‘Tiny tubs’ to the uneducated eye may seem cruel, but it’s only when informed as to the nature of the animal, for example the secretive and naturally sedate snake (Royal Python - classic example) that these conditions seem kinder than the provision of larger enclosures.


Agreed ... but could the tubs be improved upon ? For example, would a royal be better off in a dark tub with a clear lid rather than a transparant tub ? 

Should water be available at all times ? Although reptiles can and do go without water for long periods, this is not perceived by a mammal owning public. I always supply water at shows and many of my animals drink it so to me, this proves it is neccessary and this point is made very well in your report.

In all a good job... but accurate, quoted statitistics are a must IMO. The Anti's are masters at spouting unsupported rhetoric and plucking random numbers out of the air. We, in contrast, really need to be seen to be accurate in what we say.


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## TWGarland (May 24, 2009)

Thanks Neep Neep, i see you point. Points!. I'll be altering the article tomorrow with what you and Pete Q have said in mind.

Absolutely no offence taken, i asked for constructive criticism and thats exactly what i've gotten. Thank you very much for your help. its greatly appreciated.


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## TWGarland (May 24, 2009)

ratboy said:


> In all a good job... but accurate, quoted statitistics are a must IMO. The Anti's are masters at spouting unsupported rhetoric and plucking random numbers out of the air. We, in contrast, really need to be seen to be accurate in what we say.


With regards to popularity, maybe i could get in touch with a popular show organiser, ERAC for example, to see if i could take a quote to use in my article.

For the WC - CB issue i think a supporting quote maybe a little harder to obtain. Any ideas on that one anyone?

Thanks for the help Ratboy : victory:


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

TWGarland said:


> Below is an article i wrote for BEKS regarding Reptile and Amphibian shows in the UK. Its far from perfect but I thought i'd post it here as im looking for constructive criticism
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> ...


Sorry but if the purpose of BEKS is to provide factual information to the public about the reptile hobby, I think you need to do a bit more research.
There is a lot more history to what’s going on than you have seen and read about over the last couple of weeks. This fight started over fifteen years ago when an ex reptile dealer was born again, saw the light and began a one man crusade against his fellow reptile keepers. This guy set the standard when it came to falsifying information but barely made a nuisance of himself until after several years two smallish AR groups picked up on his aspersions and began backing him.
These two groups (one of which employed a certain E Toland) made a lot of money (donations from their supporters) from their campaigns against the reptile hobby. As a result of their attacks we went from 30 plus shows down to about 4 over a two year period and in an attempt to save the hobby the FBH was born/created.

Looking at your report
The shows you see now are not gaining in popularity (they was always popular) they are recovering from the damage done by the AR groups over a decade ago during their first period of attacks against the hobby.

Most reports in the media have been miss-informed and sensationalist right from the start and will continue to be so as long as ET and co keep providing them with miss informed - sensationalist stories. Anything positive our side provides will be listed as boring and filed in the bin. Stories of well organised shows with caring breeders and well looked after reptiles doesn’t sell papers but sensational reports of animal suffering and profit making smugglers disguised as breeders does.

Many people do totally legally keep wild caught animals and some may well totally legally sell wild caught animals at these events. There is a perfectly legal wild caught trade in operation in this country and if I choose to sell a wild caught animal that I no longer need for my breeding project at a show I am perfectly within my rights to do so and there is nothing within CITIES or the Animal welfare bill that says I can’t.

On the size of tub issue. Again there is nothing within the Animal Welfare bill at present to recommend or enforce any particular size of tub. This was something for secondary legislation but hasn’t happened yet. When it does come under consideration the true experts are very likely to recommend something similar to what we already see to avoid stress and prevent injury to the animals during transport. The only people really condemning the current containers as mentioned in the AR report are the AR activists that wrote the report.

Your piece on legality is fine, it’s factual and provides a link to the quote on the DEFRA website:2thumb:

While your conclusion sounds fine and very positive it is also unrealistic. We are not dealing with animal welfare groups, these people are extremist animal rights activists. They view any interaction between man and animal as an abusive situation. By all means try to educate the public. Also look at ways that we can genuinely improve the welfare of animals while at shows. But don’t waste time trying to alter things purely to appease the Anti’s. The only thing that would make them happy is an out right and total ban on the keeping, breeding, selling and showing of all animals.

Sorry if this all seems like a major bashing but it is important that anything put out there for joe public to read is full of Authentic facts and statistics. Other wise it is no better than the tirade of diatribe put in front of the public by our AR friends.

Gordon


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## blazingtortoise (Feb 7, 2008)

'Some have described Exotics shows as ‘A brisk trade in wild animals’ and we feel here an essential point is being missed. Virtually no hobbyists these days own wild caught animals (WC), and in fact captive bred (CB) individuals are already widespread within the industry.'

I wouldn't use the word industry. I know its picky but I think thats the kind of thing you are asking about! 

I agree with what an earlier poster said - that we should use properly verifiable information/statistics wherever possible.


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

one other thing I'd recommend you add is a counter to the claims the Anti's make that all exotics suffer in captivity and die very soon after arrival as their conditions in the wild can't be replicated at all and that the trade is about quick disposable pets.

The fact we have many CB species of lizards, snakes, frogs, tarantulas etc AND that WC specimens often live longer in captivity then in the world proves that their claims are totally false.


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## Pete Q (Dec 4, 2007)

Finding the actual hard facts on these subjects would near on impossible. Get the facts where we can yes indeed, where they are hard to come by there is nothing wrong in using or calling upon experience or experienced members.
I think we need to fight them / play them at their own game in almost everyway possible, I'm not saying we should lie, example would be I know all the reptiles at the show were captive bred, but I can't tell you how many reptiles there was.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Just to clarify things,

*There is NO LAW AGAINST THE SALE OF WILD CAUGHT ANIMALS AT SHOWS.*

If a breeder wants to sell on wild caught animals that he no longer needs for a breeding project, he is totally within his rights to attend a show and sell them on. 

What you can’t do is import a load of WC or CF stuff or for that matter a load of CB stuff purely for the purpose of making a profit by selling on at a show. This isn’t because it’s illegal or wrong to sell them at a show but because the moment the person begins buying in for the sole purpose of selling on, he or she becomes a dealer and the law says that a dealer can not sell live animals in a public place without a pet shop licence and breeders shows aren’t licenced.
It is in fact the person not the animals that would be breaking the law.

If it is ever made illegal to sell WC or CF at a show we are all going to have a major problem. If you turn up with a selection of wild coloured/normal hatchlings, how are you going to prove they aren’t wild caught? The Antis would have a field day running around pointing at carolina corns and normal royals while shouting "wild caught".

Gordon


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## TWGarland (May 24, 2009)

Natrix said:


> Just to clarify things,
> 
> *There is NO LAW AGAINST THE SALE OF WILD CAUGHT ANIMALS AT SHOWS.*
> 
> ...


I dont recall saying there was. Merely that the claim by antis that all reptiles in the pet trade are WC is not accurate, when in fact (as i think we can all agree) the majority are CB.



Natrix said:


> Anything positive our side provides will be listed as boring and filed in the bin


You make it sound like we shouldn't bother trying to defend ourselves?


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## DazedLewis (Aug 21, 2008)

TWGarland said:


> You make it sound like we shouldn't bother trying to defend ourselves?


I think they were trying to make the point that stories of animal abuse are much more interesting in the eyes of the media than stories of well cared for animals...


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

TWGarland said:


> I dont recall saying there was. Merely that the claim by antis that all reptiles in the pet trade are WC is not accurate, when in fact (as i think we can all agree) the majority are CB.


 TWGarland 
My statement wasn't aimed at anyone in paticular. The general chat was going along the lines of all animals at shows are CB and WC is illegal. Hence my post trying to point out that WC, CF and CB are all legal.



TWGarland said:


> You make it sound like we shouldn't bother trying to defend ourselves?


Far from it, I've spent nearly the last ten years trying to defend this hobby from the Anti's. What I am trying to say is that it is a waste of time trying to beat the lies and deceptions provided by anti's to the press with nice pet keeping stories. What the Anti's provide, sells papers.........nice, cutesy, factual pet stories don't.


Gordon


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