# Two beardies in same vivarium



## Bazzabhoy (Feb 10, 2014)

I bought two male beardies in January of someone and they've always been homed together. Although I ain't saw much fighting with them I've been reading up and thinking of purchasing another vivarium and housing them separate. One seems slightly larger than the other which I didn't notice when I got them. The smaller one seems to be more of the dominant one due to his more often head bobbing and sometimes jumping on the others back and the odd occasion starting to try attack the larger male. I have them in a 4ft vivarium with basking lamp at one end and uv lamp at cool end, basking lumping is controlled by a microclimate thermostat, uv lamp on a timer 12 on 12 off. Should I buy another vivarium an desperate them as the smaller dominant male seems stressed a lot and I think he is a fair bit smaller than the other. Would rehousing one keep them healthy and safe if I set up other vivarium the same as this one.
One other question I this vivarium I have has four vents in back panel and two small holes drilled in top would I be ok to put other vivarium on top of this one since there is four vents in back, as stacking them I'd cover the holes on the top.

Any advice is much appreciated


----------



## Pogonaviti (Jan 21, 2014)

Seperate them! 
They're already showing signs of aggression (climbing on each other is a way to prevent basking which keeps one cold which causes a whole host of problems) 
The dominance WILL end in a fight that can kill one of the beardies. 
They need to be separated. No question about it.
Stacking will be alright though. 

About the uv, I hope it's a strip light and not a compact light. The strips have much better uv output


----------



## PDJ (Jul 24, 2013)

Definatly get another viv. Beardies are solitary animals and would be better off alone. As you have already said that 1 seems more dominant, the submissive 1 could end up getting stressed or worse if they start fighting. One viv on the other should be ok as your present one has got ventilation.
Good luck with your chaps and I hope this helps.:2thumb:


----------



## Bazzabhoy (Feb 10, 2014)




----------



## Bazzabhoy (Feb 10, 2014)

This is uv light that was in tank when I got it


----------



## Rogue665 (Mar 17, 2010)

Bazzabhoy said:


> This is uv light that was in tank when I got it



You need a uvb 12% strip not a bulb their useless for beardies, and also the uvb should be by the basking area think of it this way.
they lay on a branch or stone to get heat and uvb (basking)..they go to the shade (cool) for darkness and to cool down

they are solitary animals and they are already showing worrying signs that will end up in one dead or a vet bill.
you need to separate them and set up their enclosures successfully.
basking temp (accessible branch or stone) should be 120f
warm end nearest heat bulb and uvb tube (bright) should be around 90f
cool end (shaded/hides) 80f

yes it will be ok to stake the two vivariums it might be best to slightly raise the bottom of the top vivarium off the top of the bottom vivarium to allow circulation of air and remember heat rises so the below vivariums hot end will heat the top vivariums hot end so remember this when it comes to basking bulb wattages


----------



## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi Please let me help you,

Images like this make me sink in the depths of despair. This is 100% what is wrong with the old fashioned and ill advised methods of reptile keeping. We can help thought if you want.

We need to think of heat, light, access to UVA and UVB, great hydration and a full and varied diet as our animals "life support systems". Yes they will grow and survive to a degree in these old fashioned systems but it will certainly not allow them to thrive and will in no doubt cause painful and expensive to treat health conditions in later life.

The portion or "wavelengths" of light that we humans call UV is broken down into 3 main categories. UVA, which helps to balance hormone levels and of course "activates" colour vision I birds and reptiles (Tetrachromacy). UVB which among many other uses causes the body to produce its own vitamin D3 which is of course the catalyst to the absorption, storage and use of calcium (D3 cycle) and UVC which is terribly dangerous and must be blocked.

Light has its own limitations! Firstly UVB does not travel very far from source. This means that the further light travels from a lamp the weaker the dose becomes. We should of course be providing our animals with a re-created wild index of UVB. This is the level that the species has developed over millions of years to make use of. If we underprovide this energy to a species we effectively "under run that species" and this practise of "under running" will have long term negative effects upon the animal in terms of Ca and other mineral depletion. 

So we need to look at the level of energy that the species requires in the wild and simply copy that in the best way possible. The best way possible of course is the "light and shade method" this is simply the practise of grouping all heat and light together so that you have a hot, energy rich area that is matched with a graduated drop off into cool and shade. The animal itself can "self regulate" its own level of exposure, take from nature all that it needs to not just survive but to thrive.

The trouble with the lighting that I can see in the image is that it is just a curly compact lamp. This design lamp is does not take into consideration the limitations of the tech! firstly look at the pattern of light. light is produced all the way round and internally to the lamp itself. Now, you want as much of the light and therefore energy from light to be projected down onto the animal back, How can this happen when light is "untamed" and going in all directions including into itself. 

You need to choose a system that allows you to re-create the level of energy that the animal has been designed to use and in a measured and effective way. This incudes a stat controlled heat system of course and UVB rich light over an area that is big enough to be of use. Aim for a lamp that is roughly half to two thirds the length of the viv if using High Output T5 systems, which are to date the most scientifically accurate method of providing this energy.

Reflectors are essential! a linear lamp is far better at getting light and energy from light downwards into a viv but using a good reflector on a lamp will almost triple the available energy that is projected downwards onto the dragon. In short a lamp with no reflector is about as effective as running a Ferrari on biodiesel.!

So in short,

Heat and light at one end, build up the decoration under the light source to create a "basking area" this is around 12-15" from the lamp and reflector to the dragons back if using HOT5. this then allows you to provide the animal with a gradual drop off into cool and shade at the other end. Then you can start to think about hydration and providing a full and varied diet.

You will need to split them up of course, there will be aggression and fighting especially when we get into spring and as in the law of nature one will become dominant and take the best while the other gets the leftovers!

I am happy to provide more specific advice IF you want. I will need to actual size of the viv and a list of any equipment you have

Hope this helps

John,




Bazzabhoy said:


> image


----------



## ChrisGlatt (Feb 3, 2014)

That is nice to have a look. The picture might have been a little clearer.


----------



## Bazzabhoy (Feb 10, 2014)

HiFirst of all I'd like to thank u all for ur advice
My vivarium is 4 ft and I'm picking up another 4ft vivarium tonight to separate my beardies. In this vivarium I have the uv lamp on right is a repti glo 10 UVB 26 watt which I know know is in wrong position and by sounds of it isn't suitable. The basking lamp is 100w with a 170mm reflector. The heat is controlled by a micro climate b1me thermostat. I control the UVB lamp using a timer 12 on 12 off. 
Please feel free to advise me on everything I am doing wrong I am new so want my vivariums set up properly. 
The other vivarium I am getting tonight is going to be stacked on top of this one. I've added a pic below


----------



## mxjay (Feb 17, 2013)

You will need something like this.





Hope this helped.


----------



## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

yes I could bang on for hours about the best way to set a viv up but this image shows it perfectly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:2thumb:

Mimic this and you will doing all that you can to provide your dragons with wild indexes which is what they have developed to require.

Remember also, all heat and light at one end, cool and shade at the other.

Ideally in a 4' viv you would use a 12% D3+ 39watt T5 lamp and reflector. this will provide all of the energy that the dragon needs over an area wide enough to be used properly.

let me know if you get stuck,,

John




mxjay said:


> You will need something like this.
> 
> [URL="http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii215/johnny311074/P1010387.jpg"]image[/URL]
> 
> ...


----------



## Bazzabhoy (Feb 10, 2014)

Having a look about websitesCan u recommend one who sells this light and reflector


----------



## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

all shops have our products instore and online

there are few suggestions here but this list is in no order and is far from exhaustive

Southcoast exotics
livefoodsbypost
swell reptile
Essex reptile
the grange online
purple pets
888 reptiles
warehouse aquatics
aquacadabra
scales and fangs

john


#


Bazzabhoy said:


> Having a look about websitesCan u recommend one who sells this light and reflector


----------



## mxjay (Feb 17, 2013)

Blue Lizard Reptiles - Reptile Shop


----------



## Bazzabhoy (Feb 10, 2014)

Thot I'd update on my progress over last couple of days, ok right I got another vivarium , this one is also four foot but a lot deeper and higher than my other one, has a 30 watt uv strip in it and I've put two basking lights in it for now which are controlled my a microclimate stat.As u can see from the pics I'm gonna add below there's a few accessories that I got with it, there's a heated stone..... Is this ok to use as in it won't burn my beardy ?
I also got with it two small heated pads which are in place and I've put a section of reptile carpet over then covered with beech chips ( just a bit of carpet over the pads not full vivarium). Are they ok to use as I've put them in place but left switched off for now, I was thinking of putting pads on a timer and only having them on thro the night and stone on a timer only on thro the day.
I am waiting on a reflector getting delivered for my uv strip
Also a reflector for one of the basking lights as only one has a refector the now.
Hope this set is a big improvement but please feel free to thro any advice my way.


----------



## Bazzabhoy (Feb 10, 2014)




----------



## CarlW21 (Jul 21, 2013)

Hello,

excellent progress !, yea once you get that reflector delivered it will be great. As for the heat rocks, when I look at some care sheets, for some reason they are marked on the "essential" shopping list. However I never bought one back when I got my BD, reason being that people said they can be prone to overheating and sometimes your reptile can burn/injure themselves on these. I never got one, so cannot talk from experience, but I am sure someone in here will let you know if they are good or bad.

As for the pads, I think people do use these, especially in the winter nights when room temps are a lot lower, so they might not be a bad idea to have on in the night, I heard some say they put there's on side of viv just to give off a little heat. Again no experience so wait until someone else comes along lol.

Also I do not use beech chips so cannot advise (wow I am useless!) haha

But yea it's good too see you are taking people's advice and committed to this 'project' lol. Also, where did you get that viv/cabinet and at what price ?


----------



## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

CarlW21 said:


> Hello,
> 
> excellent progress !, yea once you get that reflector delivered it will be great. As for the heat rocks, when I look at some care sheets, for some reason they are marked on the "essential" shopping list. However I never bought one back when I got my BD, reason being that people said they can be prone to overheating and sometimes your reptile can burn/injure themselves on these. I never got one, so cannot talk from experience, but I am sure someone in here will let you know if they are good or bad.
> 
> ...


Haha, I like this post. : victory:

I'll try to clear up some confusion. So heat rocks first, they have a really bad rep, I've seen some horror burns. This however seems to be a thing of the past on older unstatted models. The newer version come with a built in stat to keep the temps within a safe gradient. You of course won't know whether this is new or old so I'd have a little look around and see if you can find it online to see if its worth keeping. If you can't find out I'd personally stay away from it just to be sure. Shouldn't be needed anyway with proper heating. 

Heat mats. These too can have a bad rep. Bearded dragons don't really detect heat from their bellies too well, they're sun worshippers so detect heat from above. Heat mats have been known to overheat and burn a dragon before it notices. Again, you shouldn't need them if your lighting is correct so I would refrain from using them. 

Finally beech chips. These I have never used so technically shouldn't be advising, however there's a reason I've never used them. It's common sense really, if a piece of beech chip is swallowed there's no way in hell it's going to be broken down which means it has to pass through. It could do this no problem but it could however cause a rupture being passed or simply be too large to pass and cause a blockage or impaction as its better known. I would steer well clear. 


Hope so of that helps, remember I am not telling you what to do, husbandry is subjective, I am only giving my opinion, use it as you will! : victory:


----------



## Bazzabhoy (Feb 10, 2014)

Well after latest advice I think when I'm ready to change the beech chips I think I'll use sand as I think it'll be easier to keep clean as everything will be on surface and no chance of beardy swallowing chips, het stone I'm gonna keep in place as it looks the part but will leave switched off. Heat pads I'll leave in place but leave switched of too. Gonna fit the two reflectors this afternoon


----------



## Bazzabhoy (Feb 10, 2014)

CarlW21 said:


> Hello,
> 
> excellent progress !, yea once you get that reflector delivered it will be great. As for the heat rocks, when I look at some care sheets, for some reason they are marked on the "essential" shopping list. However I never bought one back when I got my BD, reason being that people said they can be prone to overheating and sometimes your reptile can burn/injure themselves on these. I never got one, so cannot talk from experience, but I am sure someone in here will let you know if they are good or bad.
> 
> ...


I bought vivarium of someone it's 1200 x 450 x 450 had heat rock, 2x heated pads, various wood, hammock, cave, uv light, basking light, plant, plus calci dust, etc etc with it I got it for £130 a bargain
The woman no longer had her beardie so wanted rid


----------



## Bazzabhoy (Feb 10, 2014)

Reflectors added now gonna change beech chips to sand when when chips need replaced


----------



## CarlW21 (Jul 21, 2013)

It's coming along nicely.
Sand it quite controversial also lol. Whatever you do, don't get calci-sand I hear this lumps together when moist and is not good when swallowed, I use this stuff... 

Desert Sand 5kg | Pets At Home

What I did was get some un-used spare bathroom tiles, which where from B&Q, like pennies for them. I place these down first (disinfect beforehand), and then a light layer of sand over the top to give it that desert look. This way, it looks deep but it isn't, you touch it and you can feel tile. Remember that where they live aren't sand dunes, more of a rocky/sand combo, so just a thin layer has been perfect for me since day 1.


----------



## Bazzabhoy (Feb 10, 2014)

So did u just lay the tiles in place and not stick them down, sounds like a no bad idea and probably easier to keep clean. Do the tiles not heat up tho ?


----------



## CarlW21 (Jul 21, 2013)

Bazzabhoy said:


> So did u just lay the tiles in place and not stick them down, sounds like a no bad idea and probably easier to keep clean. Do the tiles not heat up tho ?


My tiles are loose, so when I do a full substrate clean, they just lift out and they clean easily, nope, having sand over them blocks them from the heat, If I move the sand, the tiles maybe warm, like the wooden sides of the viv are warm, but not hot, hold on a sec I will get a pic.

EDIT: Manage to get pics...

So here it just looks like plenty of sand










See how it's just a thin layer, also, that tile is almost in direct line with heat source, it's just warm so no need to worry about burning under bellies


----------



## Bazzabhoy (Feb 10, 2014)

Looks the part and sounds like it'll be very hygienic and cheaper than having to buy two bags of chips or sand to cover full of viv. Think I might go for that when I totally clean out viv in a couple of weeks
Cheers mate


----------



## CarlW21 (Jul 21, 2013)

Bazzabhoy said:


> Looks the part and sounds like it'll be very hygienic and cheaper than having to buy two bags of chips or sand to cover full of viv. Think I might go for that when I totally clean out viv in a couple of weeks
> Cheers mate


No problem...

Well them bags I linked, I got 2 for £14 or something back in July, I have only just opened the second one a few days ago, I spot clean every day and change it fully when it looks or smells like it needs to, but spot cleaning everyday just keeps total care of it completely.

I just scoop the sand as much as I can for full cleans, pick out tiles, and hoover the small bits in corner I can't reach, oh and the glass runners, I love to sweep them clean, the sound of glass running on sand goes through me ! haha


----------



## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

The route Carl has said will be fine, I would suggest using playsand from Argos. It comes sterilised and is nice rounded grains so would pass through easily if ingested. The great thing is its like £3 for a massive bag that'll last you ages. Much cheaper and if anything better than the reptile branded equivalent.


----------



## Bazzabhoy (Feb 10, 2014)

Thanks for the advice mate


----------

