# 2 Axolotls Dead



## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Hi guys, 

Im just asking for someone to share some experience if possible. 

5pm last night - all three axys perfectly happy.
Midnight - one floating at surface - alive but not looking great! I thought it may be a swimbladder gone or swallowed air or something?
This morning - the one floating PLUS the supposedly healthy albino one - both dead.


Water temp 67-70 always
filter - on low
water depth - 12"
40% water change - weekly
food- bloodworm, prawns, mealworms, earthworms, fish pellets (once but they didnt like them)

the only new thing we've added to the aquarium is a bubble stone. 

I really cant think what could have killed two of them on the same day, but the third seems absolutely fine. We've just done a massive water and filter clean, but im really worried about the third, i thought axys were really hardy!?

If anyone has any advice on what to do now, or what we could have done wrong please let me know, thank you!


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## shadowfrog (Nov 16, 2008)

Well it could be a majority of things.

Did you check water parametres anyway? 

Next is stress. How big is the tank? Possibly the air stone could of really stressed them? Are their gills facing forward? What about substrate? Could have swalloed gravel or impacted on sand? Do they have hides? Do they share the tank with fish etc?

Maybe it was meant to happen? How old were they or length? Proberly had some sort of diesease, but I highly doubt it.


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

Do you clean the filter in tank-water or under the tap?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

shadowfrog said:


> Well it could be a majority of things.
> 
> Did you check water parametres anyway?
> 
> ...


Water temps are measured by a thermometer that shows max and minimum temps over the last 24 hours, lowest was 67, highest was 70. temp when we found them was 68.
Tank is 2ft long by 15 inches - all axys are juveniles so this should be plenty big enough for three of them (especially considering the place i got them from had about 20 axys in a 3ft tank), gills were not facing forward before death (and still arent in the surviving one) my substrate is LARGE pebbles - about 2-3" in diameter each. However the place i got them from were kept on small pebbles (i was worried about impaction when i got them but as they are small i hoped theyd not ingested any..)
they have two proper hides and lots of plants to hide behind, there are no fish in the tank with them. they were about 5" long each (no idea about age) I have no idea if its a disease or not - the remaining one seems healthy but so did the others until the end! will be keeping a close eye on him for at least a month before considering getting any more. Just hope he is ok really! maybe it was meant to be... however its just odd that it was both the same day!!



Berber King said:


> Do you clean the filter in tank-water or under the tap?


tank water. im very careful to ensure any water for their tank has stood for 24 hours before going in to allow the chlorine to dissipate. also its only a 40% water change anyway


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## shadowfrog (Nov 16, 2008)

I'm not on about an temperature, I mean Ammonia etc?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

shadowfrog said:


> I'm not on about an temperature, I mean Ammonia etc?



oh i see apologies, ill be honest ive not tested it as i dont have the kit to do so (may buy this today to make sure!) 

I thought that doing a 40% water change once a week should be plenty to ensure ammonia/nitrate levels are kept in check if only keeping three axys?

Ive done this again this morning in hope that the third one should be OK.. 

Do you rekon it could be the ammonia etc? I only have plastic plants in there so the only organic material is axy poo and uneaten food (if any, because we usually watch them pretty closely or handfeed them!)

cheers for your help


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## shadowfrog (Nov 16, 2008)

Well it's better to have a kit than no kit. 40% does sound enough, but you really wanna how how the water parametres are as well. 

Also do you remove uneaten food or axy poo?
What about chemicals around the tank e.g. hairspray etc?

I'm not really sure if it is Ammonia, but it would be helpful if you could post pics of your tank?


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## shep1979 (Feb 24, 2008)

sorry to hear that , cold be stress due to weekly water changes and the air stone , as i didnt have one in with them and water changer every 4-6 weeks my last 2 are still fine as they are in the local reptile shop now and the other 10 in the fish shop are still doing well


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

shadowfrog said:


> Well it's better to have a kit than no kit. 40% does sound enough, but you really wanna how how the water parametres are as well.
> 
> Also do you remove uneaten food or axy poo?
> What about chemicals around the tank e.g. hairspray etc?
> ...



Sure, well ill get a kit today to make sure but it does seem unlikely to be that.

there is very rarely uneaten food as we handfeed them worms and mealies etc, the only uneaten food (if any) would be one or two bloodworms that they missed, and as for that and their poo - thats what the filter is for! the tank looks very clean to me. 

Theres no chemicals around the tank as its in the living room - nobody sprays anything by them. 

heres a pic of the tank and of the one we have left. as you can see the bubble thing is only small and im really having problems believing its that 


















any more ideas? thanks again hun..


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

shep1979 said:


> sorry to hear that , cold be stress due to weekly water changes and the air stone , as i didnt have one in with them and water changer every 4-6 weeks my last 2 are still fine as they are in the local reptile shop now and the other 10 in the fish shop are still doing well



hey hun i dont hold you responsible at all - just really struggling to find out why its happened! i really dont think it could be stress because they have plenty of hides and their gills are never 'forward' in a stress-pose or anything. and as you can see in the pic - the air stone is only tiny and from another forum it seems lots of people have them with no problems. its so weird that it was both in the same day! the last one seems fine and healthy, hope he will stay that way!


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## shep1979 (Feb 24, 2008)

its strange that that happend to 2 in one day ,it could be meal worms maybe causeing damage if they was not killed buy being eaten as its happend to many lizards in the past


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

shep1979 said:


> its strange that that happend to 2 in one day ,it could be meal worms maybe causeing damage if they was not killed buy being eaten as its happend to many lizards in the past



im afraid not - thats an urban legend. even if a lizard etc doesnt 'munch' the mealie, it will definitely be killed by stomach acid and the anaerobic environment in their stomach.

However... its definitely DEFINITELY not happened to the axys as we cut their heads off before feeding them to the axys anyway :blush:


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## shadowfrog (Nov 16, 2008)

What kind of filter do you have? My filter don't pick-up Axy poo and that's why manually remove mine. How can you tell with all those pebbles in their anyway? IMO I would hard to find Axy poo in there.

Also it looks like the gills are projecting forward only slightly. That could be because she's still kinda a Juvi. How about keeping your remaining one in the fridge untill you get a kit? The cold water will chill her out for abit. 

I'm wondering about parasites aswell? 

Maybe this is a job for the axy experts on Caudata.org, it's worth a shot.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

shadowfrog said:


> What kind of filter do you have? My filter don't pick-up Axy poo and that's why manually remove mine. How can you tell with all those pebbles in their anyway? IMO I would hard to find Axy poo in there.
> 
> Also it looks like the gills are projecting forward only slightly. That could be because she's still kinda a Juvi. How about keeping your remaining one in the fridge untill you get a kit? The cold water will chill her out for abit.
> 
> ...



its a fluval filter, was recommended by people's accounts on caudata - ive not got an account on there but i may make one and ask. Maybe its a bit strong? 

I thought axys were pretty resistant to stress? Plus their environment seems pretty stress-free to me  To be honest the only thing i think it could be is parasites, will be keeping a close eye on this one.


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## shadowfrog (Nov 16, 2008)

Ah the current on the filter, I forgot to ask :whistling2:

Do you have a spray bar to lower the water movement. Axololts can get stressed easily, as I remember having mine stress making me stress even more lol. 

How long had (have) you had them for? 

If you think it's parasites, then I would deffo move your survivor into qurantine just in case.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

shadowfrog said:


> Ah the current on the filter, I forgot to ask :whistling2:
> 
> Do you have a spray bar to lower the water movement. Axololts can get stressed easily, as I remember having mine stress making me stress even more lol.
> 
> ...



lol, he is in quarantine - hes all on his own! as i say - hes been cleaned out so has the cleanest environment i can give him.

I put a strong plastic plant in front of the filter flow to disperse it, plus its on the lowest setting. Had them for about 4 weeks, and up till now have been really healthy and eating/growing well! 

i think weve done everything we can for the remaining one, just gonna have to wait and see 

thanks for your help, ill get a water pH/ammonia kit today : victory:


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## shadowfrog (Nov 16, 2008)

If you mean keeping him in the same tank is quaratine then that is wrong. If parasites are involved they could still be lurking about in the tank.

How about adding somemore live plants? They seem to help with ammonia?

No worries, just trying to help another Axoltol lover!


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

shadowfrog said:


> If you mean keeping him in the same tank is quaratine then that is wrong. If parasites are involved they could still be lurking about in the tank.
> 
> How about adding somemore live plants? They seem to help with ammonia?
> 
> No worries, just trying to help another Axoltol lover!



thank you :notworthy:

ill add some real oxygen plants but to be honest it really shouldnt be the ammonia! as you say ill quarantine him, i have a small tank that should do him for a week or so while i sort out the tank.

bloody parasites :bash: poor axys


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

very odd, two dieing in one day, something must of happened to the water or the temps?


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## IanF94 (Oct 12, 2008)

Sorry to hear about that. Other than what people have said about a possible disease, water quality issues or something to do with that, I'd also say impaction is a possiblity as I have experience with it first hand. I had my two for around 6 months on a bare bottom tank, but before that they were on gravel. Unfortunately it can stay in their system for up to 10 months so if you got them within the last year or so Impaction is a 
possibility.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

freekygeeky said:


> very odd, two dieing in one day, something must of happened to the water or the temps?


definitely not temps as they are checked daily (with a 24 hour meter so i know what the max and min temp was over the last day) but possibly the water pH/ammonia. ive got a kit so ill be testing that tonight! :notworthy:



IanF94 said:


> Sorry to hear about that. Other than what people have said about a possible disease, water quality issues or something to do with that, I'd also say impaction is a possiblity as I have experience with it first hand. I had my two for around 6 months on a bare bottom tank, but before that they were on gravel. Unfortunately it can stay in their system for up to 10 months so if you got them within the last year or so Impaction is a
> possibility.


aww no i hope it wasnt impaction that got them  their bellies were all bloated - so is the last one we have! the pebbles ive got them on are way to big to be eaten but they have been kept on small pebbles previously. 

will keep an eye on the last one! thanks for your experience - sorry you lost yours too


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

How recently was the airstone added?

Filters aren't there to suck poo from the bottom of the tank, trapped in substrate out and into their sponges, it's a bit much to hope for!
Manual removal is what anyone keeping any kind of aquatic system must do, fishkeepers vacuum their gravel for exactly this reason 

Faeces left in the tank aswell as even small amounts of old food all add to the bioload. Axy's are messy beasties and will produce large amounts of ammonia in the tank, your filter media is there to grow nitrifying bacteria to convert the very toxic ammonia and toxic nitrites into slightly less harmful nitrates...

If you aren't removing faeces there's every chance your filter cannot convert the load fast enough to prevent harm to the axys and every chance that the levels of nitrates are dangerously high.

The addition of an oxygenating stone means a different chemical balance in the water which can cause the toxicity of some parameters to increase or for pH to fluctuate wildly.

A basic level of maintenance (eg: 40% weekly waterchanges) isn't sufficient when you have no indication of whether it is likely to deal with the nasties in the system, i.e: if you have not tested pH, Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates at least.

Bloating indicates internal organ failure (loss of ability to osmoregulate), it is often called "dropsy" and is medically termed Oedema or Ascites.
It may have occurred by a serious bacterial infection or by poor water quality. 

Your best bet is to get a testing kit asap and ascertain what's been going on and is now going on in the water. 
The feathery gills on your remaining chap look very large, a good indicator of low O2.

Hope this helps!:2thumb:
Lotte***


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Saedcantas said:


> How recently was the airstone added?
> 
> Filters aren't there to suck poo from the bottom of the tank, trapped in substrate out and into their sponges, it's a bit much to hope for!
> Manual removal is what anyone keeping any kind of aquatic system must do, fishkeepers vacuum their gravel for exactly this reason
> ...


when i change the water i am careful to 'vaccum' the pebbles like i was taught by my father with his fish tanks when i was younger with a simple syphon. Airstone was added about a week ago. (has been turned off now i can assure you!) Ive bought a testing kit and will check this when i get home (at work currently) 

surely the air stone would cause TOO MUCH oxygen in the water rather than a lack of? I know oedema is the build up of liquid in tissues, but i wasnt aware water-dwellers are capable of getting this!

all ive done is turn off the airstone and ill be checking the water asap, although i struggle to see how my aquarium had enough ammonia/nitrite to kill them when the chap i got them from had best part of 20 axys in a 3ft tank that only got changed every 6 weeks - and had no deaths of this kind.

Thanks for your help Lotte x


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## leowalker (Jan 8, 2009)

the temps way to high!!!!!!!!!!!!
its maent to be inbetween 17 and 45


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## IanF94 (Oct 12, 2008)

leowalker said:


> the temps way to high!!!!!!!!!!!!
> its maent to be inbetween 17 and 45


The Temperatures aren't extremely high, they're under 24C (above 10C aswell unless they're sick) and mine survived in 21C for months with no problems. Plus that acheiving 45F temperatures would be very difficult without a chiller.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

leowalker said:


> the temps way to high!!!!!!!!!!!!
> its maent to be inbetween 17 and 45


erm - no they arent! they are almost always under 68F which is ideal for axolotls.. 


IanF94 said:


> The Temperatures aren't extremely high, they're under 24C (above 10C aswell unless they're sick) and mine survived in 21C for months with no problems. Plus that acheiving 45F temperatures would be very difficult without a chiller.


cheers hun - i am forever putting ice bottles in to keep it low enough lol..


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## StephanieDragon (Dec 24, 2008)

*axalotle's*

it may be worth taking a small container of water down to a mariene shop as they norm have water testing kits.


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## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

They are from Mexican Caves arent they?. I have a bit of fish experience (10yrs) and i'll try and find out the water chemistry in the rivers. and i might be able to help you with the water side of things.. hope the others are ok: victory:


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

herpmad_boi said:


> They are from Mexican Caves arent they?. I have a bit of fish experience (10yrs) and i'll try and find out the water chemistry in the rivers. and i might be able to help you with the water side of things.. hope the others are ok: victory:



thank you hun, yes they are from mexican caves!

I was going to check the water today, but the kit i got was for marine setups.. :censor: seems i had a blonde moment (although the bloody packaging could have been clearer!!)

Ill take a sample into the shop tomorrow as that may be easier lol! 

Will let you know the result, the remaining axy is doing really well now. Just have no idea what got to the others! if it was a fluke, it was damn coincidental...


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

herpmad_boi said:


> They are from Mexican Caves arent they?. I have a bit of fish experience (10yrs) and i'll try and find out the water chemistry in the rivers. and i might be able to help you with the water side of things.. hope the others are ok: victory:


The species original habitat was high altitude freshwater lakes (not caves...) Lake Chalco and Xochimilco. As Mexico City has become increasingly built up these lakes have disappeared and now only remain as isolated canals, the last bastion of the species in the wild.

Lotte***


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## shadowfrog (Nov 16, 2008)

Yep I doubt these guys exist anymore in those two lakes. Hae you joined caudata yet? Some experts on there that really helped m

Random question: Is it true that cross-bred an Axolotl and Tiger Salamander to obtain the Albino gene?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

shadowfrog said:


> Yep I doubt these guys exist anymore in those two lakes. Hae you joined caudata yet? Some experts on there that really helped m
> 
> Random question: Is it true that cross-bred an Axolotl and Tiger Salamander to obtain the Albino gene?



hmm i doubt it... axolotls can morph and come out of the water and they are essentially a tiger salamander (not sure on the genetics or even if they are the same species! i dont think so!) however i dont think the two could breed.

Regardless of this, albino genes are simply recessive mutations so would not need to be bred to different species to be expressed : victory:


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## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

Haha, i shouldn't worry about the test kit, everyone gets it wrong. Including me, just take a sample in and get them to give you the results. If there's something wrong, they're tell you, but 100% of the time the advice is wrong so just pop the results up here!!.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

herpmad_boi said:


> Haha, i shouldn't worry about the test kit, everyone gets it wrong. Including me, just take a sample in and get them to give you the results. If there's something wrong, they're tell you, but 100% of the time the advice is wrong so just pop the results up here!!.



thank you very much huni :2thumb:

i will do just that! although the chaps in my local are usually brill with rep advice (dont take the pee) but ill defo make a note and ask your advice!


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## bellabelloo (Mar 31, 2007)

My initial thoughts where contaminated food, or a water quality problem, do you dechlorinate the water during water changes?.... though I would have expected the remaining axy to be showing signs of stress . Fingers crossed for the remaining one.


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## IanF94 (Oct 12, 2008)

shadowfrog said:


> Yep I doubt these guys exist anymore in those two lakes. Hae you joined caudata yet? Some experts on there that really helped m
> 
> Random question: Is it true that cross-bred an Axolotl and Tiger Salamander to obtain the Albino gene?


 I'm not sure about the Albino gene, but they certainly were hybridized with Neotonic Tiger Salamanders in Paris. Because of the number of neotonic Tigers around the place there are barely any 'Pure' Axolotls in the pet trade.


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