# Blackfish - heartbreaking story about Orcas & humans



## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Blackfish Official Film Site


so sad that these animals are treated this way, for the sake of $$

its no surprise that Tilikum is a disturbed animal imo, taken from his mother in the wild while still very young, then locked in a tiny (20ff) pen with 2 other females that attacked him virtually every night for years on end

this just should not happen, but in a world where money rules, its not just people that suffer :-x ...he's still in a tiny pool today


the lies told by Sea World are staggering...totally agree with the end of the film, one day we will look back in shame at this mistreatment of such magnificent and intelligent creatures (that have a far more highly developed & complex lymphatic/emotional intelligence area of the brain, and an equally well developed frontal cortex as we do...its pretty clear to me that they are the more intelligent/evolved species)


you can watch on Netflix if you have it, if not theres a free month trial


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## loxocemus (Sep 2, 2006)

i wish they were as dumb as a rock, it would make their imprisonment bearable, but their not.

to keep an animal that roams the oceans in a swimming pool is mind boggling.

these cretins that go see the shows, are they ignorant, don't they care, surely some must be more evolved than the average inbred *******, they must know what their seeing is a shame on humanity.

i don't understand these people, without their money it would end, but they keep going, clapping, like the mindless, heartless, soulless embarrassments to the species they are.

rgds
ed


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

its a sad fact of American life, the $ wins out over truth all to often, and the poor fools are convinced they live in the land of the free...the truth is far from it, you can say what you like if you can afford the highest price lawyers

even tho in the UK it is not technically illegal to keep Orca, its virtually impossible because of the husbandry requirements legally imposed ( why it wasn't just banned outright I have no idea...but I'm at least grateful for the massive restrictions placed on them, I saw Orca as a young child in a park, cant remember where but it saddened me even then)

...something like this is unlikely to ever happen at a Federal level in the US imo, they don't have the will to change something which brings in $$ taxes, regardless of the suffering it causes to an animal which is arguably more intelligent than _**** sapiens, _and definitely has a far more complex emotional life (And therefore capacity for suffering and mental illness)


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

ooooooo.....you've opened a can of worms there! :lol2:

A lot of people spend a lot of time and energy trying to debunk Blackfish. It can start bitter and furious rows!

(ftr....I abhor keeping cetaceans in captivity)


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Canada have now stopped it, although I'm not sure what they're doing about the only one in captivity they have left, but as I understand it at least they've now passed a law banning it.

America?? Will they ever stop if it makes money - questionable!


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

mrcriss said:


> ooooooo.....you've opened a can of worms there! :lol2:
> 
> A lot of people spend a lot of time and energy trying to debunk Blackfish. It can start bitter and furious rows!
> 
> (ftr....I abhor keeping cetaceans in captivity)


indeed, and mostly by people who know nothing about the animals, or have a vested interest in keeping them in captivity (eg. CEO's, who also do not know the animals they are torturing)

I don't really see what possible arguments could be used to debunk the film, the science speaks for itself, regardless of what the previous trainers opinions may be; Orca's have a highly developed emotional intelligence, far great than our own, and have an equally if not more highly developed frontal cortex than we do...saying they are more intelligent than humans is perhaps at this time a step to far from our understanding, but at the very least, they are our equals

the scene when Tilikum is taken from his family is just horrible...and the outcome is predictable imo - and the lies that Sea World tells speak volumes about who should be trusted in this conversation


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

feorag said:


> Canada have now stopped it, although I'm not sure what they're doing about the only one in captivity they have left, but as I understand it at least they've now passed a law banning it.
> 
> America?? Will they ever stop if it makes money - questionable!


that's good to hear, hopefully that last one will be rehabilitated, if its even possible after so long, or at least be given a large sea home to live its life in...but given that they are massively social creatures, and humans have abused them horrifically, i don't see how they can ever truly be rehabilitated


horrified to learn that Russia has just got in on the trade and stolen 4 of these animals from their families recently.


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## Fizz (Jan 18, 2014)

I watched this a while ago, "heartbreaking " is the right term for it indeed, that poor Orca


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

CloudForest said:


> indeed, and mostly by people who know nothing about the animals, or have a vested interest in keeping them in captivity (eg. CEO's, who also do not know the animals they are torturing)
> 
> I don't really see what possible arguments could be used to debunk the film, the science speaks for itself, regardless of what the previous trainers opinions may be; Orca's have a highly developed emotional intelligence, far great than our own, and have an equally if not more highly developed frontal cortex than we do...saying they are more intelligent than humans is perhaps at this time a step to far from our understanding, but at the very least, they are our equals
> 
> the scene when Tilikum is taken from his family is just horrible...and the outcome is predictable imo - and the lies that Sea World tells speak volumes about who should be trusted in this conversation


Actually, you'll find that it's not people who know nothing about animals. A large portion of the zoo community argue vehemently that Blackfish is nothing more than PETA propaganda. And to some extent they have a point. It is a heavily biased film that uses certain tricks to over-sentimentalise the points raised. There are valid points, but it can hardly be called a balanced argument. 

If you are unable to see that, then I'm afraid it is you who knows naff all about animals.

Again, for the record, I think Blackfish is an important piece of film bringing important issues to light, but you must be able to see that it's heavily skewed towards the animal rights brigade?


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

As someone who doesn't see great issues in cetacean captivity (though I would debate the care of some individuals) I thought I'd give a few links as to why many disagree with blackfish.

What's wrong with blackfish

Blackfish and Propaganda

Documentary or propaganda

As to the main point, Orca are large carnivores, just like lions, they will kill people if they get the chance. It doesn't mean they're broken, they are not happy playful clowns of the ocean, they are dangerous predators.


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

Devi said:


> As someone who doesn't see great issues in cetacean captivity (though I would debate the care of some individuals) I thought I'd give a few links as to why many disagree with blackfish.
> 
> What's wrong with blackfish
> 
> ...


And not suitable to be taken from their families and kept in goldfish ponds for facile human entertainment.

Just saying : victory:


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Devi said:


> As someone who doesn't see great issues in cetacean captivity (though I would debate the care of some individuals) I thought I'd give a few links as to why many disagree with blackfish.
> 
> What's wrong with blackfish
> 
> ...


you should always ask yourself, what does the person have to gain, by making the claims they make - and then once you have that answer, you have all you need, to deciede whether or not they are talking rubbish.

I bet with a little effort, you could discover the source of those 3 articles, and I would bet my left * that they are linked to Sea World (or captive animals in some way)

Regardless, keeping an Orca, with 2 others, in a 20ft tank, is unacceptable, regardless of whether or not you consider Orca's to be suitable for captivity - in the UK, you would not even be allowed to keep chickens like that.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

and here we have it, one of the authors of the anti-blackfish blog...also happens to make his money from large sea creatures...

so, who benefits here, the writers of Blackfish, or John Dineley? :whistling2:


John Dineley - On LIne Zoological CV



...its always a good idea to do a little background on bloggers/writers, before deciding whether their words are purely informative, or perhaps have some hidden, financial agenda behind them, and are therefore almost certainly biased


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

955i said:


> And not suitable to be taken from their families and kept in goldfish ponds for facile human entertainment.
> 
> Just saying : victory:


The vast majority of Orca kept in western countries are not wild caught, those that are were caught many years before. 
We now keep them in family groups as nature intended as much as possible. I, and most people, do not agree with taking an animal from the wild unless it is a rescue where the animal could not survive in the wild or other critical circumstance.
As for 'goldfish ponds', many use emotive terms to criticise the enclosures that cetaceans are kept in, but without the knowledge of how they live in a wild state. 
Orca choose a territory based on the food available, most resident orca live in small coves or areas of sea as they have a good supply of fish and keep the families safe. In captivity we feed them freely and thus they do not need massive spaces. Having said that, space is nice and all animals in captivity should have as much space as humanly possible. To this end many enclosures are constantly under review and many are expanded regularly.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

CloudForest said:


> and here we have it, one of the authors of the anti-blackfish blog...also happens to make his money from large sea creatures...
> 
> so, who benefits here, the writers of Blackfish, or John Dineley? :whistling2:
> 
> ...


I know John and respect his opinion, you have linked to a job history that goes up to 2006, his last job on that CV that involves dolphins is in the 70''s, are you aware of what he does now? Or for that matter did you read the articles posted at all?


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

Devi said:


> The vast majority of Orca kept in western countries are not wild caught, those that are were caught many years before.
> We now keep them in family groups as nature intended as much as possible. I, and most people, do not agree with taking an animal from the wild unless it is a rescue where the animal could not survive in the wild or other critical circumstance.
> As for 'goldfish ponds', many use emotive terms to criticise the enclosures that cetaceans are kept in, but without the knowledge of how they live in a wild state.
> Orca choose a territory based on the food available, most resident orca live in small coves or areas of sea as they have a good supply of fish and keep the families safe. In captivity we feed them freely and thus they do not need massive spaces. Having said that, space is nice and all animals in captivity should have as much space as humanly possible. To this end many enclosures are constantly under review and many are expanded regularly.


We? Who is we?

I want no part in this.
I see you are in Birmingham, well known for its sea connections :lol2:
Studied cetaceans at university level and was a member of BDMLR for a number of years, so well aware of behaviour thanks : victory:

Enclosures may be 'expanded' but how close are we to them being the sea?

Not very I thinks!!

Should also add I don't believe in keeping any wide ranging animals in small enclosures, that's why I always bypass elephants, big cats etc at zoos.

It just makes me sad.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Devi said:


> I know John and respect his opinion, you have linked to a job history that goes up to 2006, his last job on that CV that involves dolphins is in the 70''s, are you aware of what he does now? Or for that matter did you read the articles posted at all?


of course I didn't read them all, why would I read articles that supports something I think is ethically indefensible?  I read enough to pick out information to work out who one of the writers was and what they did for £$, I have absolutely no interest in doing so for the rest, but if you are going to believe what those articles say, then I suggest that you do your due diligence for yourself...its not upto me to do.

unless you can prove to me that orca's are not the intelligent creatures that they are known to be, then there is absolutely no argument you can use to prove to me that captivity is acceptable.

children born into slavery, are still slaves.


a 20ft pool, is a 20ft pool, no matter which way you look at it, its not an ocean.


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

Devi said:


> I know John and respect his opinion, you have linked to a job history that goes up to 2006


And is presumably up to date, I know my CV is :whistling2:

And a quote from one of the most recent papers:

*Of course, freedom is an abstract human concept: nothing in the biological world, including humans, is free. 
*
Really?????

Everything else just calls it living.

And to take it to the logical conclusion, a house is big enough for a human.

It has no need to leave it, food can be delivered, water and heat is provided.

No need to interact with family, neighbours or hunt and forage naturally.

All they have to do is open the curtains four times a day and dance for a group of people in the street outside.

Yeah, sounds like a good life to me :bash:

And.......................................


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

955i said:


> And is presumably up to date, I know my CV is :whistling2:
> 
> And a quote from one of the most recent papers:
> 
> ...


humans do actually get kept like this on a pretty large scale, they call it prison - except i'm not sure they are allowed to have curtains.


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

CloudForest said:


> humans do actually get kept like this on a pretty large scale, they call it prison - except i'm not sure they are allowed to have curtains.


 I'm wondering if Devi's surname is Fritzel!!


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

955i said:


> We? Who is we?
> 
> I want no part in this.
> I see you are in Birmingham, well known for its sea connections :lol2:
> ...


We is the human race. You are part of that whether you like it or not.

I'll ignore the personal attack.

As a member of a marine rescue you should know well that a vast number of strandings do not survive. Our options currently are to push them into the sea or put them to sleep. Seeing as apart from mass strandings the individuals involved are often sick or injured and often re strand shortly after, we are in dire need in this country of some sort of rehab centre similar to Haardjewick.
Finally, as a person on an exotic pet forum, can I assume that you have animals and each one of those has an enclosure equivalent to it's maximum range in the wild?


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

CloudForest said:


> of course I didn't read them all, why would I read articles that supports something I think is ethically indefensible?  I read enough to pick out information to work out who one of the writers was and what they did for £$, I have absolutely no interest in doing so for the rest, but if you are going to believe what those articles say, then I suggest that you do your due diligence for yourself...its not upto me to do.


How can you possibly hold an opinion if you have only ever looked at one side of the argument? I have watched the cove, blackfish, and read various 'anti-captivity' articles and books and hold my opinion in spite of that.



CloudForest said:


> unless you can prove to me that orca's are not the intelligent creatures that they are known to be, then there is absolutely no argument you can use to prove to me that captivity is acceptable.


I could by all means show you many articles to show you how their reported 'intelligence' is rather overhyped. However I hazard a guess that you wouldn't bother reading them, but rather argue wildly about something you are deliberately trying not to learn.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

955i said:


> I'm wondering if Devi's surname is Fritzel!!


The hitler argument - When all else fails, call the other person a nazi, that makes sense right?


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## Moley165 (Sep 27, 2010)

of all the massive damage being done in the world to the natural eco systems, and the atrocities that are committed to wild animals... 

you know what, id be happy to live in a place with food that is safe. 

to be honest i think zoo's can do alot of good in the world, for most its the place you fall in love with the animals of the world and i know i did. it is where i saw my first Komodo dragon and Crocodile in the flesh and this has made me have a fascination with them. 

some statistics about the current Orca situation in captivity as of 2014 57 captive orcas 37 of which are captive bred. currently it is estimated that there is an absolute minimum of 50,000 Orca in the wild. If we look at this sensibly less than a 1 percent of the orca population is in captivity, and if these animals can inspire and can lead younger generations to love these animals how they should... then maybe its a sacrifice worth while of its cause? 

We could argue all day about what animal needs what care and what size enclosure, but it think we need to accept that soon enough the sea/forests/mountains wont have anything left especially if we let them become out of sight out of mind and its easy to become detached from what you have only ever seen on the tele. 

rick


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Devi said:


> How can you possibly hold an opinion if you have only ever looked at one side of the argument? I have watched the cove, blackfish, and read various 'anti-captivity' articles and books and hold my opinion in spite of that.
> 
> 
> 
> I could by all means show you many articles to show you how their reported 'intelligence' is rather overhyped. However I hazard a guess that you wouldn't bother reading them, but rather argue wildly about something you are deliberately trying not to learn.


i'll read any scientific paper you want to show me - blogs don't count as scientific information, espcially when they do not contain references/links to back up their claims (for eg the one article I did look over)


I used to believe it was acceptable to keep orcas in captivity, then I learnt more about them - just because I refuse now, to bother reading articles written by people who have a financial interest in keeping said animals in captivity, doesn't mean I don't know both sides of the argument.

I have already changed my mind about Orcas, that is why I have the opinion I have today.

I would suggest you use scientific data to back up your opinions, rather than simply dismissing the "anti-captivity" argument, simply because you don't *want *to agree with it

perhaps it throws up questions about all animals in captivity, that you don't like the answer to, or don't have an answer to? I am comfortable with keeping certain species in captivity, but others I am not, that is not based on my own opinion of captivity vs anti-captivity, but on the scientific evidence which says they are not suitable for captivity, any more than humans are.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

CloudForest said:


> i'll read any scientific paper you want to show me - blogs don't count as scientific information, espcially when they do not contain references/links to back up their claims (for eg the one article I did look over)
> 
> 
> I used to believe it was acceptable to keep orcas in captivity, then I learnt more about them - just because I refuse now, to bother reading articles written by people who have a financial interest in keeping said animals in captivity, doesn't mean I don't know both sides of the argument.
> ...


What scientific evidence are you referring to? You haven't posted a single piece of evidence in this entire thread unless you count a film which is full of plot holes debunked decades ago?
The articles I posted were facts which are widely known and were posted as you and others seemed to be of the opinion that those who agreed with captive animals or Orca in particular were somehow naive and 'know nothing about animals', which is of course untrue. Therefore I showed you articles that explained the key arguments for the maintenence of a small captive population. If you'd read them you'd know that.

This is a paper on cetacean intelligence that has plenty of sources for you to peruse if you like - Intelligence in cetaceans

As for your personal attacks, I think they say rather more about yourself than they do about me.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Devi said:


> What scientific evidence are you referring to? You haven't posted a single piece of evidence in this entire thread unless you count a film which is full of plot holes debunked decades ago?
> The articles I posted were facts which are widely known and were posted as you and others seemed to be of the opinion that those who agreed with captive animals or Orca in particular were somehow naive and 'know nothing about animals', which is of course untrue. Therefore I showed you articles that explained the key arguments for the maintenence of a small captive population. If you'd read them you'd know that.
> 
> This is a paper on cetacean intelligence that has plenty of sources for you to peruse if you like - Intelligence in cetaceans
> ...


 
i have not made any personal remarks to or about you.

that article (it is not a scientific study) is 20 years out of date. but even so, it does not claim what you say it does, infact the very last line of the article is quite clear that_ it does not have an answer._

that was however 20 years ago, and infact we do have allot more answers now...if you care to look for them; some of the studies are referenced both in the film and on the website, if you care to look for them.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

CloudForest said:


> i have not made any personal remarks to or about you.
> 
> that article (it is not a scientific study) is 20 years out of date. but even so, it does not claim what you say it does, infact the very last line of the article is quite clear that_ it does not have an answer._
> 
> that was however 20 years ago, and infact we do have allot more answers now...if you care to look for them; some of the studies are referenced both in the film and on the website, if you care to look for them.


Funnily enough, cetacean brains have not changed in the last few millennia, so I think we're ok with 20 years. 
By all means provide studies that you believe repute it or support your view, or are we sticking with just saying the film was 100% right?


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## Moley165 (Sep 27, 2010)

cloud forest i would be interested to hear your thoughts on my previous post as you seem to have tunnel vision at the moment focusing on the intelligence level of an animal rather than looking at the bigger picture. the positive effects of seeing the animal in the flesh on the human race rather than the negative effect on the animal itself. 

all well and good them all being in the wild but the wild is disappearing mate. and its easy for a kid who hasnt ever seen the magnificence of these animals in the flesh to not care. its about educating the future and zoos and wildlife parks help massively in this. 

there is more at work than what meets the eye in this situation there are benefits that cant be measured in £'s or statistics


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Devi said:


> Funnily enough, cetacean brains have not changed in the last few millennia, so I think we're ok with 20 years.
> By all means provide studies that you believe repute it or support your view, or are we sticking with just saying the film was 100% right?


20 years is a very long time when it comes to scientific understanding.

you are the one disputing the claims, so you are the one required to back up your claims - all the references used in the film to back up the opinion of the producer/director are readily available if you want to read them, but i'm afraid I'm not going to write them out for you, you'll have to use the website.



Moley165 said:


> cloud forest i would be interested to hear your thoughts on my previous post as you seem to have tunnel vision at the moment focusing on the intelligence level of an animal rather than looking at the bigger picture. the positive effects of seeing the animal in the flesh on the human race rather than the negative effect on the animal itself.
> 
> all well and good them all being in the wild but the wild is disappearing mate. and its easy for a kid who hasnt ever seen the magnificence of these animals in the flesh to not care. its about educating the future and zoos and wildlife parks help massively in this.
> 
> there is more at work than what meets the eye in this situation there are benefits that cant be measured in £'s or statistics


seeing an adults orca performing in a tiny pool had absolutely no positive effect on me whatsoever (actually being anti-orca-captivity could be called a positive effect), I had looked forward to seeing them for a very long time, but when I did, that changed.

if the captivity of these creatures really was purely scientific, then I would probably be less offended by it - but, they are not kept for science, they are kept to perform and make money for the likes of SeaWorld.

the fact that "the wild is disappearing" is a very important point I agree...but I do not agree with your apparent solution, surely we should be actively preventing the destruction of habitat? surely that is the most sensible, and ethical response to the problem?


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## Moley165 (Sep 27, 2010)

We can actively prevent the destruction and should be doing this... But when we are gone we need the little people of now to continue to fight and to love these animals and I personally believe that these places to see tiny fractions of the animal populations had a good impact overall and creates love for these animals. Thus creating people like yourself who obviously feels passionately about it and it's enhanced by the fact you saw the whale in person.. My point is that if the only time a person has ever seen a type of animal it's never extinct as you can just pop the DVD back on and watch it again. Seeing them in person creates a whole other level of attachment to these and any animal.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Moley165 said:


> We can actively prevent the destruction and should be doing this... But when we are gone we need the little people of now to continue to fight and to love these animals and I personally believe that these places to see tiny fractions of the animal populations had a good impact overall and creates love for these animals. Thus creating people like yourself who obviously feels passionately about it and it's enhanced by the fact you saw the whale in person.. My point is that if the only time a person has ever seen a type of animal it's never extinct as you can just pop the DVD back on and watch it again. Seeing them in person creates a whole other level of attachment to these and any animal.


it seems to me that the upcoming generations are far more in tune with the environmental problems in this world than we are

I don't agree that seeing an orca in a tank creates an attachment, it didn't in me, it made me feel ashamed of the human race...the idea that orcas may end up only in tanks in the future absolutely horrifies me, and while I do understand why you say what you do/your motivation behind it, its just not a future I can accept - and I don't actually believe that the young people in our society will accept it at all

the only reason that this still goes on today, is that there are old capitalist/free market generations still in power in this world; give it 50 years and they will all finally be dead, and I hope, perhaps in vain, that the people running the world then wont be so naïve to think that money is more important than our enviroment


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Interestingly eleven out of the fifty seven specimens are in China and Russia


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

one of the biggest hurdles that humanity faces, is the fact that Russia and China are determined to make all the same mistakes that we have; we are as equally to blame however, our denial of the evidence gives developing nations no good reason to learn from our mistakes


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## aardvark28 (Oct 10, 2013)

CloudForest said:


> one of the biggest hurdles that humanity faces, is the fact that Russia and China are determined to make all the same mistakes that we have; we are as equally to blame however, our denial of the evidence gives developing nations no good reason to learn from our mistakes


You are just undermining (correctly this time) your own argument when you previously suggested that old style capitalism and market economies are on the way out. Russia and China are moving into rampant capitalism and Cuba is now indicating it is to soon follow suite. Soon only North Korea will be left for those who hanker after some long-demolished left utopia (the same one that gave the delights of Stalinism, Pol Pot and the Cultural Revolution in China).


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

aardvark28 said:


> You are just undermining (correctly this time) your own argument when you previously suggested that old style capitalism and market economies are on the way out. Russia and China are moving into rampant capitalism and Cuba is now indicating it is to soon follow suite. Soon only North Korea will be left for those who hanker after some long-demolished left utopia (the same one that gave the delights of Stalinism, Pol Pot and the Cultural Revolution in China).


I didn't say that capitalism was on the way out, I did suggest that it would be a good thing if it did tho, and that I think the younger generations are more in tune with the problems that mine and previous generations mostly try to ignore

as for undermining my point, i cant work out what you mean? I was originally talking about the west - and my point was that China and Russia are simply copying us, seeing the wealth and wanting it for themselves - making the same mistakes as we have; and as China in particular makes up a significant proportion of the planets population, that is a very very bad thing; the west has done untold damage to the planet...multiply that a few times, and we'll see what will come out of a capitalist China & Russia


as for your point about North Korea, i'm sorry but that's nonsense, infact Socialism plays a huge role in Europe, despite what Republican americans may like to claim, all of the best aspects of our society in Europe, from Health Care to Education and everything in between, are socialist.

Compare that to the US, where they have the most expensive health care on the planet, and not even the best; same goes for their education system.

PS. North Korea is Communist, not socialist. they are not the same thing. Infact they are a Fascist Communist state, very different even to Communism in its basic principals.


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## aardvark28 (Oct 10, 2013)

CloudForest said:


> I didn't say that capitalism was on the way out, I did suggest that it would be a good thing if it did tho, and that I think the younger generations are more in tune with the problems that mine and previous generations mostly try to ignore
> 
> as for undermining my point, i cant work out what you mean? I was originally talking about the west - and my point was that China and Russia are simply copying us, seeing the wealth and wanting it for themselves - making the same mistakes as we have; and as China in particular makes up a significant proportion of the planets population, that is a very very bad thing; the west has done untold damage to the planet...multiply that a few times, and we'll see what will come out of a capitalist China & Russia
> 
> ...


Not a political forum so can't be bothered to argue with you (especially given the 'quality' of your responses to others like Deri on this thread - plenty of it must be true because I'm saying so but precious little substantive fact to back it up. Couple of wee pointers - the left is a spectrum just as is the right and were socialism ends and communism starts is a mute point. Yes, the same left wing success stories in Europe (those most hyped being Denmark, Sweden and Austria) that their respective electorates kicked them out in favour of right wing alternatives (too right for my liking).


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

I suggest you look into European politics a little closer if you think that left wing policy is a minor part of life in Europe/EU. it really isn't.

we may have right wing governments in power, but they are overseeing very left-wing economic nations, that provide a huge range of high quality services at a fraction of the cost of those in countries like the US, where pretty much everything is privatized.

every single service which is privatized turns to rubbish, everything from transport to health and everything in between - the results/data speaks for itself - compare it to the US systems, and then tell me that socialism is bad.


right wing politics is archaic, based in greed and selfishness, its a throw back to our evolutionary history...the sooner its left in the past the better. it will happen - anyone that claims Capitalism is a modern phenomena, doesn't really understand the basis of personal wealth; its just hairless apes doing the same thing that Ants & Squirrels do every summer, storing nuts and seeds in the hope that they don't starve in the winter (a ridiculous thing for a human to do, considering our agricultural and technological advances)


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## aardvark28 (Oct 10, 2013)

CloudForest said:


> I suggest you look into European politics a little closer if you think that left wing policy is a minor part of life in Europe/EU. it really isn't.
> 
> we may have right wing governments in power, but they are overseeing very left-wing economic nations, that provide a huge range of high quality services at a fraction of the cost of those in countries like the US, where pretty much everything is privatized.
> 
> ...



That's right you just keep telling yourself that. Happy dreams.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

aardvark28 said:


> That's right you just keep telling yourself that. Happy dreams.


 you obviously know very little about European politics or socialism - they are worth knowing about, but choose a source other than Fox news or the Conservative website.


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## kh221 (May 12, 2015)

The wild is disappearing? Well who's fault is that? The human race. 

Who goes ahead and makes decisions over other lives, over the fate of entire species? The human race. 

In my opinion, we have completely mucked up everything and forget about politics which get in the way of it all. Life has lasted for hundreds of millions of years without governments and laws. It's not about that. It's about animals being kept in unsuitable enclosures. Orcas are not kept in these conditions to help ensure their survival as a species like some animals are. Their first 'function' is as entertainment for the public, which brings in money. Money might be what supposedly makes the world go round, but it sure as hell destroys it.


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

kh221 said:


> The wild is disappearing? Well who's fault is that? The human race.
> 
> Who goes ahead and makes decisions over other lives, over the fate of entire species? The human race.
> 
> In my opinion, we have completely mucked up everything and forget about politics which get in the way of it all. Life has lasted for hundreds of millions of years without governments and laws. It's not about that. It's about animals being kept in unsuitable enclosures. Orcas are not kept in these conditions to help ensure their survival as a species like some animals are. Their first 'function' is as entertainment for the public, which brings in money. Money might be what supposedly makes the world go round, but it sure as hell destroys it.


You say that, but I went to a circus in Morocco and they had a chimpanzee riding a tiger around the ring jumping over fences and they both had stupid hats on. It's the funniest thing I've ever seen. Now who wouldn't pay good money to see that?


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## kh221 (May 12, 2015)

I'm glad you have the ignorance to be able to joke about the lives of living things being used for entertainment and money, without having seen the horrible ramifications of it in the flesh. Clever or not, sentient or not; animals are alive and don't deserve to be treated badly or to have their welfare joked about. I'm sure you wouldn't joke about the cruel lives of many humans, including children. Or at least, I hope not. But what a pleasant life you must lead to be able to be able to joke about things being kept in unsuitable conditions to entertain people.


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## RubyTiger (Dec 12, 2012)

Unfortunately I can agree that blackfish is massively biased. However at least it has brought people's attention to the subject. 

Although I was really surprised to see that some people have no problem with having these animals captive. I am by no means an expert but I feel there is a lot of scientific evidence to suggest these animals should be treated with nothing but respect and be left well alone. They stick with their families, they teach each other they even talk to each other using their own language which scientists are currently trying to decipher. It has also been found that, like humans, their brains contain spindle cells which allow them to feel strong emotions including love. It has also been recorded that these animals do not live as long in captivity. With this in mind how can anyone think it is okay to keep an animal which has the whole world to play with in a small pool and have it perform tricks purely for the entertainment of a selfish group of primates. 

I think that reason alone is pitiful. I remember watching the cove and from what I could gather the desire for captive cetaceans encourages Japanese drive hunts where the young are taken from the net while their adult relatives and companions are brutally slain. These creatures scream in distress at this time. Warning the others to escape. Plucked from the wild. From their families. From their home.

There are that many cover ups and excuses I never know what to believe. But considering the likes of sea world are a business and their source of income is these animals and if people feel they are mistreated that income stops so I feel inclined to ignore everything they say to justify it. 

"In fact, if one person is unkind to an animal it is considered to be cruelty, but where a lot of people are unkind to animals, especially in the name of commerce, the cruelty is condoned and, once large sums of money are at stake, will be defended to the last by otherwise intelligent people" - Ruth Harrison


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## Inti (Jul 6, 2015)

Uromastyxman said:


> You say that, but I went to a circus in Morocco and they had a chimpanzee riding a tiger around the ring jumping over fences and they both had stupid hats on. It's the funniest thing I've ever seen. Now who wouldn't pay good money to see that?


I hope that last part was sarcasm...


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## SueBoyle (Aug 29, 2013)

RubyTiger said:


> Unfortunately I can agree that blackfish is massively biased. However at least it has brought people's attention to the subject.
> 
> Although I was really surprised to see that some people have no problem with having these animals captive. I am by no means an expert but I feel there is a lot of scientific evidence to suggest these animals should be treated with nothing but respect and be left well alone. They stick with their families, they teach each other they even talk to each other using their own language which scientists are currently trying to decipher. It has also been found that, like humans, their brains contain spindle cells which allow them to feel strong emotions including love. It has also been recorded that these animals do not live as long in captivity. With this in mind how can anyone think it is okay to keep an animal which has the whole world to play with in a small pool and have it perform tricks purely for the entertainment of a selfish group of primates.
> 
> ...


Reminds me a bit of all the wonderful work the Darwin Centre on the Galapagos Isles does and yet they found it quite OK for some reason, to take Lonesome George from his own natural habitat on Pinta Island and stick him in a man made enclosure on a different island and experiment with him in the hope he would mate with a different subspecies, probably resulting in his early demise. Very very sad and disappointing


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Uromastyxman said:


> You say that, but I went to a circus in Morocco and they had a chimpanzee riding a tiger around the ring jumping over fences and they both had stupid hats on. It's the funniest thing I've ever seen. Now who wouldn't pay good money to see that?


Certainly not me!!



Inti said:


> I hope that last part was sarcasm...


So do I! :gasp:


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

SueBoyle said:


> Reminds me a bit of all the wonderful work the Darwin Centre on the Galapagos Isles does and yet they found it quite OK for some reason, to take Lonesome George from his own natural habitat on Pinta Island and stick him in a man made enclosure on a different island and experiment with him in the hope he would mate with a different subspecies, probably resulting in his early demise. Very very sad and disappointing


he was the only one of his species, protecting a species in imminent risk of extinction is quite a different thing (although I don't think we could possibly provide for an Orca in this situation, with our current tech)

also he was over 100 years old, even for a giant tort that isn't an early death 

The enclosure he was in, was actually very large, I saw him some years ago, well, I could just about make him out at the back of the enclosure


the biggest shame about this situation was that humans caused the demise of the species in the first place, I find it hard to blame the conservationists for trying to ensure he did not die without having some offspring survive


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## SueBoyle (Aug 29, 2013)

CloudForest said:


> he was the only one of his species, protecting a species in imminent risk of extinction is quite a different thing (although I don't think we could possibly provide for an Orca in this situation, with our current tech)
> 
> also he was over 100 years old, even for a giant tort that isn't an early death
> 
> ...


He wasn't actually considered to be that old after all. I spent November of 2010 on Santa Cruz and saw George most days where he rarely moved in his 'small' unnatural enclosure. There was no reason that the conservationists did not manage his situation on Pinta other than convenience. I suppose had he been a sheep he would have been cloned! Did you also see the enclosure for the iguanas? Dire to say the least ***128530; The reason that so many fail keeping tortoises in the UK is lack of room, where animals are kept on display as specimens rather than giving them any choice in their habitats, both in size, heat and humidity. Very sad ***128531;


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

SueBoyle said:


> He wasn't actually considered to be that old after all. I spent November of 2010 on Santa Cruz and saw George most days where he rarely moved in his 'small' unnatural enclosure. There was no reason that the conservationists did not manage his situation on Pinta other than convenience. I suppose had he been a sheep he would have been cloned! Did you also see the enclosure for the iguanas? Dire to say the least ***128530; The reason that so many fail keeping tortoises in the UK is lack of room, where animals are kept on display as specimens rather than giving them any choice in their habitats, both in size, heat and humidity. Very sad ***128531;


Have you got links to show that he was younger than 100 years old? That's not the information I was given when I was out there a few years ago, and its not the information which is found across the internet, from sources including his post-mortem.

I must have seen over 1000 tortoises out there over several weeks, and I didn't find his behaviour to be any different to the rest, both those in captivity and in the wild, he roamed about, looked alert and interested in his surroundings, stuffed his face...much like all the rest to my eyes


I would probably agree that it would have been nice for him to be kept in his original home, but given that their resources are significantly limited, and they have to spend huge amounts trying to prevent illegal wildlife traffickers & fishing, and cleaning up after unscrupulous guides & tourists, aswell as the enormous challenge of trying to conserve the unique wildlife in an environment that humans are destroying at an ever growing rate, I can understand why they didn't


the only iguanas I saw where wild on the island coasts, the only captivity I saw was a few adult tortoises and many many babies

we have to remember aswell that human activity has become a serious threat to tortoises out there, unfortunetly protecting them seems to be only possible by keeping some captive and breeding them, whilst protecting the babies until they are old enough to survive despite human destruction of their habitat (and introduction of invasive species)


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