# Legalities of cutting up dead animals.



## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Ok, so the whole 'right or wrong' debate has been done to death now and gets locked each time.

All I'm interested in is which law prevents you from doing it and what the reasons behind it are.

Cheers

: victory:


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

there's a law that stops you from doing this?


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Apparently so..........thats what I'm trying to find out


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## weeminx (Oct 28, 2006)

*deleted*


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

Crownan said:


> Apparently so..........thats what I'm trying to find out


just seems kinda weird as some people still sometimes hunt for food (rabbits, pigeon etc)


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## Ozgi (Jun 1, 2008)

Whatever law it is it's one of those un-policeable (that even a word? lol) ones. Can't see anybody ever getting charged for doing it.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

weeminx said:


> there should be a law if there isnt.
> 
> just saw the thread........
> 
> ...



Opinions are not welcome here! (I dont want it getting locked before I find my answers!)


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

i dont think there is. And i dont see why there would be one..


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## Ozgi (Jun 1, 2008)

freekygeeky said:


> i dont think there is. And i dont see why there would be one..


Apparently there is, check out RodneyVets posts on this thread...

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snake-pictures/221161-warning-graphic-fotos-dead-cut.html


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

Ozgi said:


> Apparently there is, check out RodneyVets posts on this thread...
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snake-pictures/221161-warning-graphic-fotos-dead-cut.html



yea ive seen many peopel say its illegal, but it is to bury your reps in your garden, and ive done that probably 20 times...


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## weeminx (Oct 28, 2006)

Crownan said:


> Opinions are not welcome here! (I dont want it getting locked before I find my answers!)


sorry:-|


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

Ozgi said:


> Apparently there is, check out RodneyVets posts on this thread...
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snake-pictures/221161-warning-graphic-fotos-dead-cut.html


 the only refference to any law i see is to the veterinary surgeons act which i know next to nothing about but I assume it must only cover very specific circumstances


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## Ozgi (Jun 1, 2008)

spend_day said:


> the only refference to any law i see is to the veterinary surgeons act which i know next to nothing about but I assume it must only cover very specific circumstances


Yeh, in short it's a very obscure law which will never be enforced, lol.


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## wozza_t (Jan 4, 2007)

but don't kids still dissect animals in school, i did but that was a few years ago now:whistling2:

And what about fishermen who cut up bait???


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## gtm (Jan 23, 2008)

spend_day said:


> the only refference to any law i see is to the veterinary surgeons act which i know next to nothing about but I assume it must only cover very specific circumstances


You can cut your own animals without falling foul of the Veterinary Surgeons Act. Problems can arise if you cut up other people animals & attempt to diagnose / treat - you're breaking the law.


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## t-bo (Jan 26, 2005)

gtm said:


> You can cut your own animals without falling foul of the Veterinary Surgeons Act. Problems can arise if you cut up other people animals & attempt to diagnose / treat - you're breaking the law.


I thought it must have been something like that, it didnt make sense to me otherwise.

On a side note, I wonder if the people who were so outraged before will have a change of heart if she sucsessfuly incubates the eggs.


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## kettykev (May 15, 2009)

well that was a waste of 2 pages.Personally I don't see the problem with what he/she did, well done for potentialy saving the eggs. So what, if a bread knife was used, do you expect there to be a collection of clamps,scalpels and other veterinary tools in the house. The snake was dead,the eggs removed and an interest shown in what else was there.


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## madsmum (Jan 24, 2009)

am a bit dumb but can anyone point me in the right direction for the thread with the eggs?


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## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

I imagine it would come under some sort of hygeine and sanitation law to prevent spread of disease and such like. Im sure I read something like that somewhere in an article about stuffing animals. Will have a root around the memory bank.


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## BecciBoo (Aug 31, 2007)

If the animal dies of natural causes or is euthanasia by a licensed veterinary surgeon and the animal belongs to you/you have the owners permision then you are allowed (as far as I know). It only becomes an issue if the animal suffers (under the Animal Welfare Act). It is done for teaching purposes a lot at our place, but the owners have to agree to it on the consent form (an owner has to agree to everything via a consent form, ours includes everything as we are a teaching hospital)


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## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

From what I read I think you have to have a license to perform dissection on animals. If your at school or a vets practise they would have the license so it would be fine. You can have an individual license though if you really wanted. I couldnt be bothered to read too much into it.
Lots of documents on 
National Intelligence Machinery (no idea why it says national intelligence machinery when its Guidance on the Operation of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986)


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

My own vet said i was allowed to disect my water dragons to assume cause of death and he also said there is nothing to stop you burying it in the garden either.

People bury their cats and dogs in the garden so its hardly going to be an issue with something 10 times as small if not 100.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

t-bo said:


> On a side note, I wonder if the people who were so outraged before will have a change of heart if she sucsessfuly incubates the eggs.


Had it just been a thread about getting the eggs, I doubt anyone would have said a word. But to post pictures of a DIY autopsy with a kitchen knife with descriptions about playing with the poor animals Gall bladder went so OTT as to be believable.

Will the forum allow images of DIY autopsies of dead dogs and cats ? 

As for the legality, the previous thread stated that after being cut open the body remains become clinical waste and there are very strict laws on disposal of the carcas and the organs, especially since both are potentially diseased.

Practises like the one shown could easily put the person doing it at risk of disease as well as anyone else and any other animals in the vicinity.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

Ah who gives a toss really. If people want to cut up their dead pets then thats up to them. I didn't see anyone complaining when someone was using mealworms to strip the flesh off their dead pets, which to me is alot more disturbing.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Andy said:


> Ah who gives a toss really. If people want to cut up their dead pets then thats up to them. I didn't see anyone complaining when someone was using mealworms to strip the flesh off their dead pets, which to me is alot more disturbing.


Indeed it is up to them. But it's not obligatory to post all about it on a forum. I believe RodneyVet was on the verge of leaving over it last time... and that would have been a big loss compared to a few photographs and "look what I did" posts.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

Its not obligatory to read them either. I know I didn't read the thread again after they said they were going to post pics of the dead snake. Its not something that interests me at all.


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## gtm (Jan 23, 2008)

ratboy said:


> Indeed it is up to them. But it's not obligatory to post all about it on a forum. I believe RodneyVet was on the verge of leaving over it last time... and that would have been a big loss compared to a few photographs and "look what I did" posts.


Yes - but Rodney does know what he's doing. I doubt the educational value of an amateur dissection


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

I cant see the problem with cutting up something.. I can see another few issues.. Posting it over a forum is unessecary.. I think

I can however see a serious issue if a vet tells their client to cut up their lizard ( messengermatt) to ascertain cause of death.. not a legal issue, just an issue around doing it correctly and actually being able to perform biopsies etc.. i cant see how thats remotely possible in a kitchen at home with no access to a lab.. its not a proper Pm or even a professional one with prcedures that are thourough enough to lead to a professional conclusion..

it may be interesting to do.. but how worthy the decided outcome would be of a non professional is highly dubious.. and for a vet to suggest it seems odd..

if I wanted to know why my animal had died i would not take the risk of personally guessing by cutting it up myself.. if however i was not requiring a cause of death.. I may open it up out of interest without the need to KNOW why it had died.. 

although i cant really see the point to be honest


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## snickers (Aug 15, 2007)

I find this very odd. I cut up dead animals all the time. Trout and mackerel mainly, but also chicken, turkey, goose, an occasional rabbit. I've watched it on telly quite a bit too on many more types of animal, and at a couple of shows at the NEC.

The motivation is different, but the pictures are exactly the same and no vets involved.


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

Many koi carp owners perform their own PM's and books showing what to look for under a microscope are available. It's often the only way to be sure what disease/parasite is present and enable you to treat the others to prevent further deaths.

Maybe this is because it's difficult to take fish to the vets(although once they're dead there's no issue) I don't know.

I understood that it was diagnosing/treating/PMing other peoples animals that was the problem.

A law that generally prevents dead animals being cut up would be ludicrous as it would prevent people from butchering meat/hunting/fishing etc. If I carve my chicken at dinner, should I call the cops??

I think it's just to prevent cowboys setting up as 'vets' and conning/misinforming people.


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## C4VEMAN-5AM (May 30, 2009)

Schools do it all the time, they cut up pigs and frogs.
No it isnt illegal no one has anything to worry about.


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## arvey (Jan 3, 2008)

there are a couple of issues here. firstly post mortem examinations fall under the category of veterinary surgery. to quote the RCVS "Surgical and post mortem pathology is inherently diagnostic and is fully within the legal defination of veterinary surgery"
There are also laws regarding the disposal of clinical wast as well as health and safety laws.

the bigger picture is why are these laws in place? yes they are probably difficult to enforce. They are there to protect both the person carrying out the examination and the general public from the risk of infectious disease.

now lets look at the post in question. not the examination itself (i think i have a tentative diagnosis based on what i have seen but have chosen keep this to myself) but what else is there. 

coasters for cups including a childs coaster, an animal carrier, dining room table most likley with only a layer of newspaper as protection, letters, some officy stuff. Kitchen Knives, a pair of kitchen scissors. Were gloves worn, was a mask worn, was the animal sutured afterwards. what was the ventilation like in the room. The animal is "laid to rest in the garden". I assume unsutured and therefore contaminating the soil and water drainage.

What if this animal had had tuberculosis. A very resistant organism that will now be all over that room. Anyone who keeps reptiles should be aware of a salmonella risk. There are a whole host of other potentioally infectious organisms that exist in a dead reptile that necessitate proper care at pme. For those interested I have carried out a snake pm if they want to beef up their anatomy. I find it a shame that people are so cavalier about these issues. If God forbid their children contracted Tb they may see things in their proper context


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Very informative Rodneyvet, thank you


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## gregmonsta (Dec 3, 2007)

I did a PM this year ... mostly because when I enquired at the local vets they didn't want anything to do with my snake ... I have dissected snakes before as part of my course but I didn't really want to do this one as she was my pet ... thanks to these vets not being able to do their jobs/recommend an alternative - I bit the bullet and went for it.
I used my notes and autopsy guides and the experience of fellow breeders and got to the root of the problem (a blockage at the stomach exit - later proven to be a genetic problem as other snakes from this litter died from the same constriction in this area).
Hygene is important!!! Everything was sterilised and the remainder of the snake was bagged and disposed of and the skin I kept and preserved.
I don't recommend the experience of dissecting a pet to anyone but I don't see why serious hobbyists which are experienced or have actively researched the subject shouldn't be allowed to use their knowledge.
I know several fellow breeders throughout Europe who handle all of their fecal smears/necropsies/etc themselves. Be it through necessity or with mind towards serious herpetology.


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## strudel (Nov 19, 2010)

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