# 'Monkeys in the Shop Window!'



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Tis a very crude way of displaying what politically amounts to 'Primates For Sale'.

But this is becoming more and more of a highlighted problem for us.

TSKA have had 16 cases this year presented to Nerys and myself from concerned keepers.

What the bloody hell are reptile shops, pet shops and the so on doing selling primates from the shop window for?

I am not even sorry for raising this as an issue and as much support as l am willing to support the retail trader, l simply can not tolerate this species being sold for a 'quick buck!'

If the moral ethics alone are not bad enough, let us look at what amounts to squallid conditions a lot of these primates are actually kept in.

Constantly l hear of urine sores, malnourishment , stress disorders, environmental and enclosure restrictions being present and worst of all, a complete and utter lack of knowledge by the actual seller - the retailer - so little friggin wonder that the new owners of many of these primates are so poorly advised on how to keep them!

With this 'enemy within status' being achieved by our own side, again l do understand why the opposition are campaigning against the prohibition of primates in the private market.

It is becoming apparent to me, as well as to the keepers who keep me informed of this practice, [more and more by reptile shops oddly enough], that there is seemingly very little respect - from the retail seller to the traffic buyers - on the species that they have for sale!

Shame to those retailers who carry on with this trading in primates, you are not kitted out to do so, yet you still persist in acquiring this species if and when you can - do you have no morals? Do you not care?

Primates are political, do you think you do the genuinely responsible private primate keeper justice, when you sell these poor animals in conditions that you would not keep your reptiles or other animals in?

I for one will only too easily accomadate any plans for condemning these 'illegal traders' for whilst you may well be officially licenced by your local authorities, you deserve to not only not sell this species, but more importantly - you are not deserving the rights to sell any species!

In my eyes, you are illegal traders, illegal primate sellers and you need to be shut down.

Rory Matier


----------



## Avpl (Nov 13, 2007)

true,true

its absoloutly disgusting


----------



## bevis892 (Feb 25, 2008)

you say that it is not right to sell primates in petshops which i 100% agree with so please could you explain why you have supplied marmosets to pet shops as i find this hard to get my head around after reading your strong opinion! is that money is more powerfull than morrals?


----------



## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

I think you'll find Rory is perhaps one of the most moral keepers on here. If he had sold to a shop its because he HAD assessed them to make sure the primate was going to a place that would only sell to a well researched and knowledgable individual.

Only Rory can say if he did or didnt sell to a shop but in terms of making sure animals welfare to looked after Rorys up there.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Hi Bevis, 

There may well be a difference in how you describe a sale into a 'pet shop' or in fact a sale to a pet shop owner..?

To which are you referring to?

I have sold primates to pet shop owners, yes l have.

Have l sold primates to pet shops for sale in the shops of the owners?

No.

Hope that clarifies.

R


----------



## ShortFUSE (Jan 20, 2007)

what do you think the petshop owners are going to do with them,i think your deludeing yourself m8


----------



## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

do you not think pet shop owners keep animals themselves ever?

i know many pet shop owners who also have personal collections of animals... including exotics.. 

N


----------



## bevis892 (Feb 25, 2008)

i can personaly garantee that they were sold to a pet shop along with sugar gliders and other small furries.the reptile shop owner had the idea that selling exotic mammals was the way forward to make good money luckely he found out he was wrong after all the complaints and the constant sweet musky smell which he was not bargaining on. they were sold on and on and on and now at least there are a lot of people here in the south who can boast that they once kept marmosets. the animals themselves? no boasting there! are they still alive? are they still doing the rounds? have they hopefully settled down? but at least you had your asking price.
as for assesing the shop the pet shop owner traveled up north to pick them up himself so the dealer never set foot in the petshop!
and if filling in a questionair is a satisfactory way to assess a good approved keeper,i think theres something wrong there. my 6 year old could give you all the correct aswers does'nt mean she can keep them properly but i reckon theyed be alot better of than some places.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Hi Bevis,

I can only reiterate to you, that yes l have sold primates to pet shop owners for their collections, l can pull out six such keepers now to memory. The same as l have also sold for pet shop owners that also had primates in their collections. But the latter are in small numbers, for they purchase the primates to keep within their collections.

But that you make mention to the fact that 'you can personally guarantee that 'they' were sold into a shop with Sugar Gliders and other small furries' would have me at a disadvantage as to who you are referring to.

'The reptile shop owner had the idea that selling exotic animals was a way to making money......?'

The fact that the owner had to travel North, would signify that he/she was in the south, rather than the East to the West. TBH, l genuinely can not think of a 'reptile shop keeper' in the south that we have traded with, and that he/she in turn was to sell through his/her shop.

And as said l have had keepers whom also own pet shop licences that we have supplied primates to for their own primate collections.

In the last nine months we have in fact upped out vetting and as a result of this we do visit all sellers and also buyers premises.

Are you talking of a recent period of time?

R


----------



## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

A shop not too far away from us was selling marmosets and set ups. The set up consisted of a hamster cage! The buyer was told that this cage would be adequate for the rest of the animals life!


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

glidergirl said:


> A shop not too far away from us was selling marmosets and set ups. The set up consisted of a hamster cage! The buyer was told that this cage would be adequate for the rest of the animals life!


well that sums it up really, in a pet shop you cant really vet your owners at least with Nerys and Rory they really do want a good home i would prefer that primates were sold privately also i know the advice i am going to get is good advice and not just a shop wanting to make a quick buck.

Bevis why cant pet shops have pets :lol2:


----------



## martin day (May 18, 2006)

the only places primates should be is in zoos who have more than enough space to fit there needs but most of all in the wild, haveing them in home cages or selling them in shops is all wrong in my eyes


----------



## auwa44 (Feb 26, 2008)

martin day said:


> the only places primates should be is in zoos who have more than enough space to fit there needs but most of all in the wild, haveing them in home cages or selling them in shops is all wrong in my eyes


Totally agree


----------



## Plutino (Aug 5, 2007)

edited
er, n/m


----------



## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

martin day said:


> the only places primates should be is in zoos who have more than enough space to fit there needs but most of all in the wild, haveing them in home cages or selling them in shops is all wrong in my eyes


So what if say i was a multi-millionaire and wanted a colony of monkeys and could set aside hundreds of thousands of £'s and hire specialist keepers to look after them? Is that not what a zoo does anyway, but infact with a bigger budget. Also there would be no chance of visitor induced stress on the animals and there wouldn't be numptys throwing them food, shouting at them etc.

In terms of the wild - we're destroying it as it is, whats wrong with specialist keepers preserving species and aiding to breeding programmes?

I dont think primate keeping is as black and white as you make it out.


----------



## bevis892 (Feb 25, 2008)

it was about 18 months-2 years ago. it might sound like but im not having a go against you, i think your aims are good and well intended and if you do home checks now then well done to you because not enough people do.personaly i think you are a very knowledgable fella,why dont you as a highly respected person in the animal trade use these sites as a powerful tool to help and educate other keepers/sellers rather than critacise what other people do. 
what i am noticing on alot of these sites now is that animal suppliers/keepers/breeders etc are starting to sound anti keeping when in reality you are all for keeping animals but in the correct way which in this day and age is great. i just wish these sites were not so political as theres enough of that going on anyway.
i hope this makes sense and you understand what im trying to get across.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

bevis892 said:


> it was about 18 months-2 years ago. it might sound like but im not having a go against you, i think your aims are good and well intended and if you do home checks now then well done to you because not enough people do.personaly i think you are a very knowledgable fella,why dont you as a highly respected person in the animal trade use these sites as a powerful tool to help and educate other keepers/sellers rather than critacise what other people do.
> what i am noticing on alot of these sites now is that animal suppliers/keepers/breeders etc are starting to sound anti keeping when in reality you are all for keeping animals but in the correct way which in this day and age is great. i just wish these sites were not so political as theres enough of that going on anyway.
> i hope this makes sense and you understand what im trying to get across.


 
Hi Bevis, 

I will probably get slammed for what l write now, by those who normally slam into me anyway, but hey ho.

Every keeper alive, has the ability to make mistakes during their time as a keeper, it is part and parcel of the learning curve. I have made mistakes myself as a keeper as l am sure many others have, but the beauty of the learning curve is that in order to correct the errors - you must learn and move onwards with that knowledge.

Now the same application can be used with the political side of the industry. We all learn as we go on as keepers or as speakers.

In addition to that, as keepers or speakers we change.

I have changed enormously in the last five years in so far as my political outlook, in so far as my views on keeping animals. In the last twelve months l have learned more politically, am more involved with the understanding of legislation. But in so doing, keepers also must understand the arguments against them from the opposition. To understand the ‘enemy’ is to understand how to succeed.

So now, l tend to not look at things from the militant that we were accused of last year by many, both those in favour of that stance as well as those who were against it.

This forum, proved to me to be many things, for at the end of the day this forum is made up of keepers, and forgive the phrase - but it is comprised of the ’good, the bad and the ugly’, but it is made up of the people.
Now it is the people or in our case, the keepers that matter, for it is down to them to believe or not believe, it is down to them to accept or decline what is going on.

My views on primates alone in the last two years have changed dramatically, l am for the keeping of primates by specialist keepers, and by this l mean those that do everything within their powers and abilities to ensure that their charges are maintained to the highest degree. I am against those keepers who insist on keeping their animals in this case primates, in poorer conditions and those who refuse to research into what affects they may be incurring upon their animals.

In many ways, l can see what the opposition is saying, and l can understand their opinions.

Two years ago l was a different seller on primates, two years later l am a harder and more stricter seller on primates, and it does not earn me a good reputation by primate keepers.

We try and encourage viewers into readers and readers into writers and writers into speakers and speakers into pro activity.

These sites where upon we are seen as writers of scare mongering, fear mongering and criticism serve the keeper markets. So these sites are used, to the best of our ability.

But we who believe in what can happen are viewed as the black sheep amongst a white herd following. 

More and more keepers are beginning to sound anti keeping when in reality they are not, this is a truth statement, but sadly, the legislation and the politics within our market demand this to be the way, for the opposition are relentless in their attacks and will not cease till they believe they have won.

Politics in forums like this have only just started to be accepted, for four years ago, this would not have held much response. RFUK has a lot to be proud of, for l know of three other forums that now not only host political speak but open sections for it, and l say bravo to them, well done.

Whether we like it or not, political legislation is here to stay and it will be in our faces for a long period to come. We can not continue to deny its presence.

Hope this helps
Rory Matier


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

bevis892 said:


> use these sites as a powerful tool to help and educate other keepers/sellers rather than critacise what other people do.


I beleive you will find it a very rare occurrence that Rory "critisises" other keepers publicly - especially on this forum.

There has been one instance where he has washed his hands of a member who continually asked and asked for advice and then totally disregarded it all - would you not feel slightly peeved that your time had been wasted?

There are also many of us who will critisise people - if I hear of someone housing a lone meerkat in thier living room or a lone marmoset in a parrot cage, yes I do openly and publicly state that I think it is irrespinsible and downright wrong. It is keepers like this who offer ammunition to anti keeping groups and it is ultimately the anit keeping groups who will have a hand in the demise of exptics keeping.

I fully support Rory in his stand to say we NEED Codes of Practice - the sooner the better because this will be a foothold to show the seriousness of our keepers and that we are not afraid to follow sensible guidelines to ensure the wellbeing of our charges. It is just a shame that more people do not support the COP's openly as, right now, they seem to be the best way forward for keepers


----------



## skyfox (Feb 4, 2008)

theres no answer to the question all you do is go round in circle/s at the end of the day its up to that person if they want to keep an animal and care for it, as for the specialiast keeper, on here who wrote the thread just talk to a brick wall ,its never going change peoples minds who want an animal /pet its up to them were they buy or get them from not to be told that the only place you can get them from is you


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

skyfox said:


> theres no answer to the question all you do is go round in circle/s at the end of the day its up to that person if they want to keep an animal and care for it, as for the specialiast keeper, on here who wrote the thread just talk to a brick wall ,its never going change peoples minds who want an animal /pet its up to them were they buy or get them from not to be told that the only place you can get them from is you


Skyfox, 

I do not recall asking keepers to buy from me in this thread or in any thread l have submitted. 

I have advertised on this forum, like others also have, but do not coerce sales.

Keepers have the freedom to purchase their livestocks from whom they choose.

This thread was around primates being sold in the shop window.

And whilst you are correct in 90% of your post, the final 10% is incorrect: 

"animal /pet its up to them were they buy or get them from not to be told that the only place you can get them from is you"

Not guilty here thankyou.

R


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

skyfox said:


> theres no answer to the question all you do is go round in circle/s at the end of the day its up to that person if they want to keep an animal and care for it, as for the specialiast keeper, on here who wrote the thread just talk to a brick wall ,its never going change peoples minds who want an animal /pet its up to them were they buy or get them from not to be told that the only place you can get them from is you


skyfox Rory isn't saying you should only buy exotics from him and no were in this thread can i read him even hint it.

and what is wrong with people trying to get the best for the animals instead of selling them for a quick buck??

i would love a pair of meerkats but after speaking with Rory i decided to wait s that proves that Rory and Nerys put the animals interest first!

personally i think you just have a problem with Rory and find any way possible to have a go at them!


----------



## TraceyBaker (Oct 12, 2009)

*Wanting to buy a monkey*

I'm looking to buy a monkey but was wondering how i go about it the correct way, i know what to feed them, how much care they need the type of surroundings they need so on

but i dont know how too actually go about getting one

does anyone know any eligible breeders or traders that sell monkey in the uk.


----------



## pookey (Nov 29, 2009)

*primates*

sad to hear. As a primate keeper I am appauled that defra has not issued strict laws on pet stores selling any type of primate or any animal in fact that needs specialist knowledge, care, diet and housing. strict laws should apply.


----------



## pookey (Nov 29, 2009)

pookey said:


> sad to hear. As a primate keeper I am appauled that defra has not issued strict laws on pet stores selling any type of primate or any animal in fact that needs specialist knowledge, care, diet and housing. strict laws should apply.


 I should add that buying from a private breeder is the best option as they have expertise and would or should shall I say in informing the buyer on all the animals requirements and needs and have them veted.


----------



## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

pookey said:


> sad to hear. As a primate keeper I am appauled that defra has not issued strict laws on pet stores selling any type of primate or any animal in fact that needs specialist knowledge, care, diet and housing. strict laws should apply.


Strict laws should apply to any animal, even down to hamsters & guinea pigs. Why are monkeys and primates more entitled to a good home and knowledgeable keepers then the smaller 'more disposable' animals?


----------



## Tao (Oct 16, 2009)

this is another example of pet shops trying to make a quick buck, for the sake of an animals life. Primates are specialist animals and need specialist environment to live in. many are also sold far too young as they should spend years with there parents depending on the species. Look at places like monkey world and the lengths they go to, to rescue primates.


----------



## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Tao said:


> this is another example of pet shops trying to make a quick buck, for the sake of an animals life. Primates are specialist animals and need specialist environment to live in. many are also sold far too young as they should spend years with there parents depending on the species. Look at places like monkey world and the lengths they go to, to rescue primates.


 
I loved watching that when it was on...........(still is but repeats lol)


----------



## africa (Sep 12, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> Strict laws should apply to any animal, even down to hamsters & guinea pigs. Why are monkeys and primates more entitled to a good home and knowledgeable keepers then the smaller 'more disposable' animals?


Well said:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


----------



## exoticskeepers (Dec 27, 2009)

Rory whilst I agree with what you say publically I have to disagree with the practices that go on behind the scenes. You make a big public announcement like this whilst over the years you've sold to Rik at Jungle World in Ballamena, N.Ireland a variety of species ( not only primate ) for sale in his store. Your aware of his reputation, and also that he has lost his license a number of times for animal cruelty issues and yet you have continued to trade with him? Its been reported to you any number of times the practices that go on in his store and yet he still gets stock from you?
LastIheard there was a single meerkat in a small rabbit cage with nowhere to hide and the cage was filthy. He sells marmosets in dog cage to do the animal 'all its life'. This HAS been reported to you and yet you disregard this.
I DO appreciate the statement you made. primates ( as with a lot of exotics ) should not be sold through pets shops ( i know a broad reaching statement and I do apologise to those shops that do an outstanding job but you know your in the minority ) but it is suppliers that should vet a shops suitability before supplying to them. If they do decide to supply shops that arent adequate then they CANNOT make open statements like the one you have made and expect no comeback :bash:


----------



## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

I do wonder if people have failed to read the date that this thread was started

it was started in feb 2008 which is nearly 2 years ago now................


----------



## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Emmaj said:


> I do wonder if people have failed to read the date that this thread was started
> 
> it was started in feb 2008 which is nearly 2 years ago now................


Yeah but you know RFUK Emma, it could be from 20 years ago, if it gets bumped up it's a valid debate again. :lol2:


----------



## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> Yeah but you know RFUK Emma, it could be from 20 years ago, if it gets bumped up it's a valid debate again. :lol2:


 
Ah yeah nearly forgot where i were for a few moments there :gasp:

ta for the reminder megan :lol2::lol2:


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

exoticskeepers said:


> Rory whilst I agree with what you say publically I have to disagree with the practices that go on behind the scenes. You make a big public announcement like this whilst over the years you've sold to Rik at Jungle World in Ballamena, N.Ireland a variety of species ( not only primate ) for sale in his store. Your aware of his reputation, and also that he has lost his license a number of times for animal cruelty issues and yet you have continued to trade with him? Its been reported to you any number of times the practices that go on in his store and yet he still gets stock from you?
> LastIheard there was a single meerkat in a small rabbit cage with nowhere to hide and the cage was filthy. He sells marmosets in dog cage to do the animal 'all its life'. This HAS been reported to you and yet you disregard this.
> I DO appreciate the statement you made. primates ( as with a lot of exotics ) should not be sold through pets shops ( i know a broad reaching statement and I do apologise to those shops that do an outstanding job but you know your in the minority ) but it is suppliers that should vet a shops suitability before supplying to them. If they do decide to supply shops that arent adequate then they CANNOT make open statements like the one you have made and expect no comeback :bash:


Interesting reading!


----------



## ReptileSeeker (May 14, 2008)

Sounds like someone is scared of the competition.


----------



## Betty (Jan 2, 2008)

*What action*

Rory you do a lot of talking but not much else. you are so good at Talking but if all that is all you can do is just Talk then you are not much use.
If you care so much then the talking must stop and you should start taking action other wise say nothing. It do not make you importain by just writing a load of texts, so come on what action plain have you??? B







TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Tis a very crude way of displaying what politically amounts to 'Primates For Sale'.
> 
> But this is becoming more and more of a highlighted problem for us.
> 
> ...


----------



## Betty (Jan 2, 2008)

*What action Plain*

Rory you do a lot of talking but not much else. you are so good at Talking but if all that is all you can do is just Talk then you are not much use.
If you care so much then the talking must stop and you should start taking action other wise say nothing. It do not make you importain by just writing a load of texts, so come on what action plain have you??? B


----------



## Betty (Jan 2, 2008)

*Not really*

How can you state that Rory is knowledgable fella When he has never been a keeper of primates all his knowledge is from books or from the internet. when he has been a keeper for any length of time. he can set himself up as a knowledgable fella he is like these estate agents and adviser they have not had any or need any licence to pratice just like Rory so please dont make statements like that without knowing the full facts about Rory



bevis892 said:


> it was about 18 months-2 years ago. it might sound like but im not having a go against you, i think your aims are good and well intended and if you do home checks now then well done to you because not enough people do.personaly i think you are a very knowledgable fella,why dont you as a highly respected person in the animal trade use these sites as a powerful tool to help and educate other keepers/sellers rather than critacise what other people do.
> what i am noticing on alot of these sites now is that animal suppliers/keepers/breeders etc are starting to sound anti keeping when in reality you are all for keeping animals but in the correct way which in this day and age is great. i just wish these sites were not so political as theres enough of that going on anyway.
> i hope this makes sense and you understand what im trying to get across.


----------



## Betty (Jan 2, 2008)

*Well Said Zoo Man*

You have just echoed what I was thinking, nice to hear someone like you Zooman who stands up and be counted and says what he feels. to many think that the Sun shines .......well done and again all Rory is in it for is for Money and that is the pit fall when one gets overstocked then you must move them on as over crowding is just as bad and to seel is not a problem but to get money as an agent like you have just illastrated if imoral Betty




Zoo-Man said:


> Interesting reading!


----------



## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Sounds like you've got a personal issue Betty. you've been back to the thread a couple of times to reply; the thread is two years old and Rory hasn't been on since November.

although isn't Rory more of a broker? arranging sales for others rather than having 'stock' himself.


----------



## Rie xx (Nov 20, 2008)

Does indeed come across like a personal issue.. Think maybe the thread needs closing now..


----------



## Animal-Encounters (Nov 14, 2009)

Come on mod close it before betty goes crazy...


----------



## africa (Sep 12, 2008)

Animal-Encounters said:


> Come on mod close it before betty goes crazy...


Yes closing time:2thumb:


----------



## Betty (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you for the information I am quite new to this thred but i am learning, did not look at dates just saw what was written and it makes me so mad but thank you for pointing my errors out to me. must learn my way round this site thank you betty



Meko said:


> Sounds like you've got a personal issue Betty. you've been back to the thread a couple of times to reply; the thread is two years old and Rory hasn't been on since November.
> 
> although isn't Rory more of a broker? arranging sales for others rather than having 'stock' himself.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I don't think the thread needs closing. Betty is entitled to her opinion, like everyone else. 

As far as I know, Rory is a broker of exotic animals, but has never owned primates.


----------



## exoticskeepers (Dec 27, 2009)

Just backing up what I stated earlier Rory... this is an article on the arrest and bail of one of the shops you supply:

Revealed: the scale of trade in rare animals - Times Online


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Oh dear, doesn't sound too good for the brokers who supplied him eh


----------



## benjo (Oct 31, 2007)

wow way to revive a thread of pure crap, congrats!


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Betty*

I am none too sure who you are, but if you do have a grievance, perhaps you might like to address it to me personally?

[email protected]

Hope this helps.

Rgrds R


----------



## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

To be quite honest anyone who sells any animal (and i believe you sell primates betty ),to a degree has no right to moan about others. You can never guarantee what life the animal is going to have once it has been sold,or how many homes it will be passed around.Filling out homing forms etc is not worth the paper it is written on.If you want to be guilt free or blameless DO NOT SELL ANIMALS.Any one of our exotics could end up in premises like this or worse.


----------



## carlo69 (Apr 12, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> To be quite honest anyone who sells any animal (and i believe you sell primates betty ),to a degree has no right to moan about others. You can never guarantee what life the animal is going to have once it has been sold,or how many homes it will be passed around.Filling out homing forms etc is not worth the paper it is written on.If you want to be guilt free or blameless DO NOT SELL ANIMALS.Any one of our exotics could end up in premises like this or worse.


Spot on ,


----------



## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

I've met Rory, I don't know him, but I have spent an afternoon with him...
I spent most of the day thinking up things he could get me and asking how much they would cost.. LOL
I did ask about primates and even though the prices he quoted were very reasonable, he wouldn't sell me one....
TBH I got the impression that he talks more people out of getting things than talking them into it....


----------

