# saturated market



## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Without this becoming an argument, and not to affect peoples livelyhood, can anyone else see a saturation of the market of certain species in the future?

Without going into a list of species, i just notice certain trends for people buying certain species/morphs solely for the purpose of breeding, it seems like a follow the leader thing, of course its good for future prices, i can just see a future saturated market on the horizon

whats your views, hopefully this will be kept friendly: victory:


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

Hi CC...nice to see you back 

Well for sure the Royal and cornsnake market is completely saturated.......Lots of people are now breeding in the UK as well as cheap imports coming in all the time is driving the market prices down....

To be honest as I see it if UK breeders dont sell at the same prices that the US importers are selling for they will stuck with a lot of snakes they just cant sell......


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## Lisasgeckonursery (Feb 14, 2008)

I can see what you mean, Leopard Geckos, Cresties, Corns, Royals etc are readily available now which is great for buyers but the market is saturated. 
Hopefully if people have lots of choice, they will go for breeders who have healthy and well looked after stock. The people doing worst at the moment are the ones who somehow thought they'd make a fortune breeding reps only to find they can't offload their hatchlings quick enough for their liking and didn't have space for them all in the first place.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

madaboutreptiles said:


> Hi CC...nice to see you back
> 
> Well for sure the Royal and cornsnake market is completely saturated.......Lots of people are now breeding in the UK as well as cheap imports coming in all the time is driving the market prices down....
> 
> To be honest as I see it if UK breeders dont sell at the same prices that the US importers are selling for they will stuck with a lot of snakes they just cant sell......



hiya, i was thinking about many breeders/keepers being stuck with animals that they cant find a buyer for at all


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

about_a_girluk said:


> I can see what you mean, Leopard Geckos, Cresties, Corns, Royals etc are readily available now which is great for buyers but the market is saturated.
> Hopefully if people have lots of choice, they will go for breeders who have healthy and well looked after stock. The people doing worst at the moment are the ones who somehow thought they'd make a fortune breeding reps only to find they can't offload their hatchlings quick enough for their liking and didn't have space for them all in the first place.



I dont think the market is fully saturated yet, i think it hasn't even started yet with respect to certain species, i think thats something for the future


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

The market is saturated to be honest in some areas.

This year I purchased around 50 corn snakes at £4-5 - not normals, amels, anerys, snows & ghosts, okay low end corn snakes but still that's even cheaper than the "cheap" prices advertised at Hamm and Houten and I had them brought right to my door. Healthy animals, all at 5feeds+

I also had people phoning up and asking £20-25 and being insulted when I say well no, sorry..I really only pay £5 max for them these days. Kudos if you can get those prices but if you're looking to shift them in bulk and immediately you have to hit rock bottom prices. I have seen some ridiculously slashed prices on hatchling corns in the classifieds this year.

10 years ago I was selling between 100 and 200 low end single or at most double recessive animals for £20 each wholesale to shops who sold them at £60-80 with no problems at all. Now as a shop I wouldn't touch a low end corn snake for £20 ever, it's just not financially viable to me - I retail them starting at £15-20!

I'll sell every single one of them of course, but some maybe not until next year. My rack will always be bulging, there won't be a downtime. It's economical for me as I have heated racks anyway, I buy wholesale equipment & food and the costs are lower for me as a shop to keep them for a year if necessary. I personally didn't breed any normals, amels, anerys, snows etc. this year. I only bred the higher end things I knew would sell reasonabley quickly, because I knew I'd be able to buy in the very low end stuff at next to nothing so I cut down a lot of my adults - and it's been cheaper for me to buy in all the low end stuff than it was to keep feeding my normals and amels etc.

Breeders who don't want to spend the time, money and space feeding the animals for potentially 6 months+ whilst waiting for buyers to contact them in dribs and drabs end up offering them to shops in bulk at silly, next to nothing prices.

If that's not saturated already I don't know what is. Perhaps a few more years and people will be giving away entire clutches.


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> hiya, i was thinking about many breeders/keepers being stuck with animals that they cant find a buyer for at all


 
Im sure thats going to happen...then breeders will sell soo cheap that snakes become disposable pets

Its not good for the hobby at all


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Athravan said:


> The market is saturated to be honest in some areas.
> 
> This year I purchased around 50 corn snakes at £4-5 - not normals, amels, anerys, snows & ghosts, okay low end corn snakes but still that's even cheaper than the "cheap" prices advertised at Hamm and Houten and I had them brought right to my door. Healthy animals, all at 5feeds+
> 
> ...



Thanks for that, really interesting seeing it from the retail angle, whats your views on the royal and retic explosion?, where the market isn't quite as broad as with corns ands leos?


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## purpleskyes (Oct 15, 2007)

Leos and beardies have become completely saturated, there were beardies on the classifieds for £5 each :gasp: Enigma leopard geckos cost hundreds just last year, now you can get snow engimas for under £200. It is insane how quickly the price has dropped on these animals in just a year. For example I have an enigma het bell leopard gecko that was £250 last year you can now purchase an engima het bell for £50???

I was having a conversation with the OH about this just last week you think of how many members are on this forum and I would say the majority breed at least one species. It is hard to come across someone in the reptile world that doesn't breed, people are always asking me why I have 20 lizards when I don't intend on breeding any of them? Why because I like them, because I enjoy owning them, watching them, looking after them. You dont need to breed anything you can just have the animals to enjoy.

At the minute royals arent as bad, because they lay small clutches and you have to wait usually 3 years to get the female up to size and there are so many many morphs with more being created all the time. But who knows how long before the royals go the same way as the beardies, leos and corns.


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## Kerriebaby (May 12, 2009)

I have two Leos, and I do plan on having more ( of different species, Gargs, Royal P and Corn )

But I dont ever see myself breeding, mainly because I wouldnt have the first clue, and it doesnt interest me.

what does strike me, is the amount of people breeding for the sheer hell of it ( how many people buy animals simply to breed, and im not talking breeders, i mean novices like myself ) then as has already been pointed out, they dont sell as quick as they'd hoped, need rid, (mum will kill me otherwise) so they sell for £5. Whereas the genuine breeders (SleepyD is a good eg) will keep the animal at the price it was meant to be. I know where Id rather buy an animal


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## AuntyLizard (Feb 7, 2007)

It is becoming harder and harder to be a breeder because of the saturation. Some people see it a quick way to raise money. It takes away from the breeders who are passionate about what they are breeding.

We breed a small amount of beardie morphs and next season I am seriously thinking of freezing some of the eggs that are laid after double or treble clutching. I think some people dont realise what is involved in breeding or the cost of doing it. Thats why we are seeing large quanties of animals being sold at silly prices.

Liz


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

about_a_girluk said:


> The people doing worst at the moment are the ones who somehow thought they'd make a fortune breeding reps only to find they can't offload their hatchlings quick enough for their liking and didn't have space for them all in the first place.


problem is that good breeders are being hit just as hard if not harder ~ there was a thread recently where more then a few are cutting back on any breeding plans for next year and even in some cases stopping altogether ... between the recession and what has become a flooded market with every jockey and their horse breeding (with regards leo's anyway) combined with the (in some cases) ridiculous panic price drops what choice do they have? Many including myself would rather breed fewer and keep them longer then "breed'emfast an flog'emquick"



Athravan said:


> Breeders who don't want to spend the time, money and space feeding the animals for potentially 6 months+ whilst waiting for buyers to contact them in dribs and drabs end up offering them to shops in bulk at silly, next to nothing prices.


heck hun some don't even want to keep them a for a few weeks longer then is minimally possible (if at all) let alone six plus months 



madaboutreptiles said:


> Im sure thats going to happen...then breeders will sell soo cheap that snakes become disposable pets


would say that leo's are at that stage already.


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## DazedLewis (Aug 21, 2008)

The low end corn market is definately saturated, high end corns are still in demand but going for very low prices, and the royal market is NO WAY saturated, more and more people are buying them everyday it seems.


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

purpleskyes said:


> people are always asking me why I have 20 lizards when I don't intend on breeding any of them? Why because I like them, because I enjoy owning them, watching them, looking after them. You dont need to breed anything you can just have the animals to enjoy.


I get asked that a fair bit especially as I only breed a few of my girls each year (and next year those breeding will be even fewer) ~ I don't breed for breedings sake and I refuse to breed any of my girls just because they're there and I don't believe in the theory that some have that they have to be bred at least once to be fulfilled ... in a word that theory/belief is IMO b:censor:ks
Like you I like my reps and I enjoy them ... they're a great relaxer


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

DazedLewis said:


> The low end corn market is definately saturated, high end corns are still in demand but going for very low prices, and the royal market is NO WAY saturated, more and more people are buying them everyday it seems.



see thats where i think the royal saturations gonna hit hard, more and more are buying, many for the sole purpose of breeding, i remember reading a thread with people buying royals, when months back had no interest in them to the point of saying they dont like em:lol2:

The retic situation has calmed, when i remmeber alot of people purchasing them, with little knowledge, id have hated there to be sh*t loads of retic out there, especially with the limited market

Im not tarring anyone here with any brush, its just an observation that i worry will affect the hobby, nothing more or nothing less than an observation:no1:


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## urbanhippie (Mar 20, 2009)

The thing that worries me most is the possiblity that small time breeders who concentrate on a few quality animals per season are going to be priced out of the market and unable to cover costs.

I think I speak for most on here when I say I would rather buy a quality animal from a quality breeder even if it cost a little more. Unfortunately outside here, I'm not sure that's true.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

urbanhippie said:


> The thing that worries me most is the possiblity that small time breeders who concentrate on a few quality animals per season are going to be priced out of the market and unable to cover costs.
> 
> I think I speak for most on here when I say I would rather buy a quality animal from a quality breeder even if it cost a little more. Unfortunately outside here, I'm not sure that's true.


Thats why i gave up on continuing with the abbotts okeetee breeding that i was getting into, people would buy cheaper imports without even viewing the animal rather than choosing a specific snake

I think private breeders are always gonna struggle against the big boys, but i worry that the big boys and private breeders still continue regardless of each other

I wish more leo breeders bred cave geckos, wish more corn breeders went into trans pecos and more royals bred angolans, i suppose i miss the diversity:lol2:


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## Lisasgeckonursery (Feb 14, 2008)

SleepyD said:


> problem is that good breeders are being hit just as hard if not harder ~


 Yep this was my point, the people with no room to keep hatchlings once they grow on who wanted to make a bit of money are panic selling at low prices, this in turn is effecting reputable breeders.


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

about_a_girluk said:


> Yep this was my point, the people with no room to keep hatchlings once they grow on who wanted to make a bit of money are panic selling at low prices, this in turn is effecting reputable breeders.


 

So what makes you think that "Reputable breeders" are not selling their hatchlings off cheap to get rid of therm?


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## Lisasgeckonursery (Feb 14, 2008)

captaincaveman said:


> I wish more leo breeders bred cave geckos, wish more corn breeders went into trans pecos and more royals bred angolans, i suppose i miss the diversity:lol2:


 The thing is they probably will and then everyone will have the same idea and the market will be saturated with something else. Its supply and demand and while things are scarce they will be worth more, prompting people to think theres money in breeding whatever it is but next year it'll probably be another thing thats the "IN" pet.


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## C.C. Rider (Nov 19, 2007)

If you are doing it as a hobby and for the love of the animals, what does it matter if you cover the costs or not? I think half of the problem is that people buy animals as an investment, not knowing what the word investment means. It is not a licence to print money. 
Some people seem to think they have a God given right to recoup their outlay on their first clutch and are very upset when they can't whether it be to UK breeding or US imports. If it really is a hobby to you and you really are doing it for the love of the animals it shouldn't matter. If you want to make a quick buck breeding reptiles is not the easiest way to do it, and if you don't particularly like the animals involved (someone mentioned Royals earlier,) then you should rethink what you are doing.
What price are we going to be paying for Albino Royals in 2/3 years time when all these imported animals start breeding, the £450 per animal spent now won't seem so cheap in 2012.


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## Lisasgeckonursery (Feb 14, 2008)

madaboutreptiles said:


> So what makes you think that "Reputable breeders" are not selling their hatchlings off cheap to get rid of therm?


I didn't say they weren't, the prices are lower than ever so people have to meet what the market will pay. And if some people are panic selling then the market prices will be a lot less. Not saying its right or wrong, just a fact.
Most breeders never think they'll profit but some people seem to have bought reptiles purely with that intention and didn't think of space and money needed hence the panic when they can't sell immediately.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Glad its stayed calm, was worried when i initially posted:lol2:


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## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

From my point of view all the animals i breed are pets. Some i will sell due to space issues, or to help with costs etc. Obviously its nice when someone gives me cash, but its not about the money. Its about the love of the animals - in my case KSBs! I have have 15 of them LOL! I know i will find it quite hard to sell some of the normal Kenyans, but the ones i do want to sell will go everntually.


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> Glad its stayed calm, was worried when i initially posted:lol2:


We are all grown ups cavie..........:lol2:


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

madaboutreptiles said:


> We are all grown ups cavie..........:lol2:




some more than others:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Seems to me things are going both ways yes the market will be saturated in a few years as it already is with some species but some of the more uncommon are suffering too which is why I managed yesterday at PRAS to pick up a adult feale spotted python for 50 quid seems the only species selling is balls which in the future will go the same way as the corns have.

Paula


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## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

Things will happen in waves i think. The morphs wont be so big and everyone will want normals etc. (Just an example - not nessesarily to that extent) There will always be 'the next big thing', ie, currently scaleless snakes, albino iguanas etc.


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## excession (Apr 11, 2009)

Again, more sobering reading!

On the plus side in a year or two i might be able to get an Albino Royal and not feel obliged to make back my 'investment' on it and simply have it as a wonderful pet.


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## oakelm (Jan 14, 2009)

I think the market is a bit full at the moment, I think everyone is cutting down because of cost which means there are a lot of adult and sub adult animals available as well as the usual glut of hatchlings. I think give it a year or two and some of the market will pick up.

Things like corns and leos that are selling so cheaply now and appear to have no market will still sell, maybe more slowly but I think each species has its followers and lets face it when people buy a first snake it is often a corn and first lizard is often a leo. I actually sold up my corns to make room for my growing collection of other species. But to be honest on a pet level I missed my corns, they are so nosey and just generally nice snakes that when I saw some upper keys corns for sale I just had to have them, yes they were a bargain but a pretty bargain, I may or may not breed them in the future but will always make sure I have room to do so. I am actually having a rack made because I thought I would have to hang on to my young royals this year, sods law most have sold now without having to drop prices but its there for next year just in case.

This year I was expecting to have a hard time selling normals both KSBs and royals but I think they have actually sold quicker than any other year so far, which as it stands at the moment is rather odd :s


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## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

C.C. Rider said:


> If you are doing it as a hobby and for the love of the animals, what does it matter if you cover the costs or not? I think half of the problem is that people buy animals as an investment, not knowing what the word investment means. It is not a licence to print money.
> Some people seem to think they have a God given right to recoup their outlay on their first clutch and are very upset when they can't whether it be to UK breeding or US imports. If it really is a hobby to you and you really are doing it for the love of the animals it shouldn't matter. If you want to make a quick buck breeding reptiles is not the easiest way to do it, and if you don't particularly like the animals involved (someone mentioned Royals earlier,) then you should rethink what you are doing.
> What price are we going to be paying for Albino Royals in 2/3 years time when all these imported animals start breeding, the £450 per animal spent now won't seem so cheap in 2012.


When somebody enters any 'hobby' they always try to do the best they can, and be the best at that 'hobby'. Surely when an artist is overflowing with paintings the time comes to sell a few. The money then goes to buy new paints etc. If your further comments are aimed at me sir, you are wrong, and also another I do not wish to write here.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> Without this becoming an argument, and not to affect peoples livelyhood, can anyone else see a saturation of the market of certain species in the future?
> 
> Without going into a list of species, i just notice certain trends for people buying certain species/morphs solely for the purpose of breeding, it seems like a follow the leader thing, of course its good for future prices, i can just see a future saturated market on the horizon
> 
> whats your views, hopefully this will be kept friendly: victory:


 
I said this over a year ago and was shouted down for daring to say it on this forum..

(By some very well known people on this forum jay..)

I was told to shut up because I was just trying to ruin peoples livliehoods... when really I was just being foresighted.. I pointed out many reasons WHY.. for example.. importation.. keepers breeding their animals too early.. poor quality animals.. credit crunch ( which was obvious to me due to 15 years as a mortgage advisor/ in the financial sector exactly where that was headed too)

it was blatant to see then.. and blatant to see now... everyone is a breeder... people see it as a quick buck then realise its not and have further produced a glut in the market for species..

obviously not ALL species.. but as time progrsses what is rare now stops being so.. and prices go down.. demand drops.. etc..

... it was always going to happen though.. anyone buying into reps lower down the chain as a true monetary investment these days is crazy


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

I think only time will tell, still sub £100 albino royals wont be long off:lol2:

I just so worry about the hobby sometimes, i was talking to a mate about years ago and the variety in shops, really miss those times, so many species that people will never experience:gasp:


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

urbanhippie said:


> The thing that worries me most is the possiblity that small time breeders who concentrate on a few quality animals per season are going to be priced out of the market and unable to cover costs.
> 
> I think I speak for most on here when I say I would rather buy a quality animal from a quality breeder even if it cost a little more. Unfortunately outside here, I'm not sure that's true.



We're very careful who we buy from now. We don't mind paying extra for animals that are higher quality, in terms of health and colourings etc. That way, if/when they are bred, the offspring will be healthier, better markings/colour etc. 
For example: our Fire royal. Mason knew he was going to get me one.. But waited for the right pairing, a Fire to a BEL. That way, I didn't get a washed out one that isn't that much different to a pale normal. What I did get was a stunning animal that hasn't been diluted with many breedings to normals. 



captaincaveman said:


> Thats why i gave up on continuing with the abbotts okeetee breeding that i was getting into, people would buy cheaper imports without even viewing the animal rather than choosing a specific snake
> 
> I think private breeders are always gonna struggle against the big boys, but i worry that the big boys and private breeders still continue regardless of each other
> 
> I wish more leo breeders bred cave geckos, wish more corn breeders went into trans pecos and more royals bred angolans, i suppose i miss the diversity:lol2:


We are always going to be careful when we breed ours. I'm not interested in selling our royals cheaper than everyone else. I'm interested in producing quality animals. Our royal breeding was fairly successful this year. We're keeping 6 out of 10 royals produced, and 3 out of the 4 we're selling have already got people waiting for them to be feeding well enough for us to be happy to let them go. 

If you want to supply me with a pair of Angolans, I'll be more than happy to breed them :whistling2: They're one of my favourites, and I'll have them one day


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## C.C. Rider (Nov 19, 2007)

Mujician said:


> When somebody enters any 'hobby' they always try to do the best they can, and be the best at that 'hobby'. Surely when an artist is overflowing with paintings the time comes to sell a few. The money then goes to buy new paints etc. If your further comments are aimed at me sir, you are wrong, and also another I do not wish to write here.


 
Hi Mujician
I'm happy to point out that my comments weren't aimed at anyone at all and just a general comment on the state of things at the moment, sorry if anything in my most could be misconstrued as referring to any particular individual.
As for your analogy, the point I was trying to make in my original post was not that people shouldn't hope to make _any_ money out of selling offspring, but they shouldn't get so upset about making a profit. Any money at all recouped in the course of a hobby should be seen as an added bonus to the fun derived from the hobby itself.


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## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

C.C. Rider said:


> Hi Mujician
> I'm happy to point out that my comments weren't aimed at anyone at all and just a general comment on the state of things at the moment, sorry if anything in my most could be misconstrued as referring to any particular individual.
> As for your analogy, the point I was trying to make in my original post was not that people shouldn't hope to make _any_ money out of selling offspring, but they shouldn't get so upset about making a profit. Any money at all recouped in the course of a hobby should be seen as an added bonus to the fun derived from the hobby itself.


 
But it is inevitable that some money will be made though. For instance, I love KSBs, and presently would not be able to afford a snow. I have in my possesion, lots of hets. I breed these and produce a snow. I havent got the space to keep all the babies so I need to sell the babies. I am also incredibly interested in seeing these animals breeding. Hence the resaon I hae baby leos and rankins dragons. Im not out to make any money!


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

sami said:


> We're very careful who we buy from now. We don't mind paying extra for animals that are higher quality, in terms of health and colourings etc. That way, if/when they are bred, the offspring will be healthier, better markings/colour etc.
> For example: our Fire royal. Mason knew he was going to get me one.. But waited for the right pairing, a Fire to a BEL. That way, I didn't get a washed out one that isn't that much different to a pale normal. What I did get was a stunning animal that hasn't been diluted with many breedings to normals.
> 
> 
> ...



If i could afford a pair of angolans id breed em myself, surprised more effort hasn't gone into breeding them:bash:


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## C.C. Rider (Nov 19, 2007)

Mujician said:


> But it is inevitable that some money will be made though. For instance, I love KSBs, and presently would not be able to afford a snow. I have in my possesion, lots of hets. I breed these and produce a snow. I havent got the space to keep all the babies so I need to sell the babies. I am also incredibly interested in seeing these animals breeding. Hence the resaon I hae baby leos and rankins dragons. Im not out to make any money!


 
KSB's are my favourite too and have bred them over a number of years. Good luck with them. 

There is nothing at all wrong with people making money from their hobby, my only point is that people have been complaining on here recently about not making enough. 

From breeding my own animals some years I have made enough to cover the costs of feeding/housing etc some I haven't, I'd rather make money than spend it but I'm not going to have a strop if I don't, which some people seem to be doing.


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## Montage_Morphs (Jul 6, 2007)

The hobby is based on supply and demand. At the moment, in regards to some species there is too much supply and not enough demand. THESE are the species which quickly depreciate in value. On the other hand, there are many species in which there is not enough supply and too much demand. THESE command higher prices and come with the added continuity of buyers year after year. 

*I firmly believe that something is only worth what someone is willing to pay*. I think the whole candoia genus is worth it's weight in gold, yet some people don't even bat an eye at these little underrated snakes. I am sure a few people will agree with me, but just a few. 

Species which take years of work and commitment to successfully breed will of course command a higher price for babies because the supply is short. And its a real achievement to keep some babies alive more than 24 hours in captivity nevermind get them feeding, established and sold on to prospective buyers.

*Ultimately prices are determined by buyers, NOT sellers*. Sellers can state in a classified ad what they want, but they will only get that if the buyer chooses to pay that. 

Which leads on to another point. What really pisses me off is when I see people slashing their classified prices within 24 hours because it hasn't sold yet. This whole "weekend only special" just doesn't cut it with buyers. We then KNOW you are willing to accept that amount, and will wait it out until you return it to that price. Specials, sales and impatient sellers have a big role to play in the slashing of corn snake/leo/beardie/royal etc prices. And the reason for the slashing of prices is the fact they sellers have to compete with so many more people because everyone and their dog is breeding corns and royals these days.

There are far too many factors to consider before stating that the market is saturated. You need to look into WHY it seems to be this way. And the reasons are abundantly clear when you think about it. 

On a side note, can't help but sense an air of bitterness in the replies on this thread. Perhaps because people didn't get what they wanted for their hatching's despite paying big bucks for the breeding adults. Perhaps because they still have babies they can't sell from the begining of the year... anyhoo...


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Montage_Morphs said:


> .
> On a side note, can't help but sense an air of bitterness in the replies on this thread. Perhaps because people didn't get what they wanted for their hatching's despite paying big bucks for the breeding adults. Perhaps because they still have babies they can't sell from the begining of the year... anyhoo...


 
I think your side not had a lot of truth to it... I would have typed it in bold...


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## Montage_Morphs (Jul 6, 2007)

sparkle said:


> I think your side not had a lot of truth to it... I would have typed it in bold...


LOL I just thought i'd get it out there.... being all sneaky sneaky!


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## rockkeeper (Apr 5, 2007)

so forget putting a price on, or saying offer



just put price "what are you *willing to pay "*

*i like the idea of saying offer over ££££ aleast then there a min low price*


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## Montage_Morphs (Jul 6, 2007)

rockkeeper said:


> so forget putting a price on, or saying offer
> 
> 
> 
> just put price "what are you *willing to pay "*


You can put a price on anything. For example a blue eyed leucistic royal python sells for what £1000, on average this year?

I'd pay quadrupel that if I had the money. I just adore those crisp white beauties. However, some people may not want to pay anything more than £400 for one. It's all subjective and relevant. And one BEL is worth more depending on it's look than another, DEPENDING on the buyer. 

*Buyers buy, sellers ONLY sell if buyers are willing to part with their money.*


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

Montage_Morphs said:


> Which leads on to another point. What really pisses me off is when I see people slashing their classified prices within 24 hours because it hasn't sold yet. This whole "weekend only special" just doesn't cut it with buyers. We then KNOW you are willing to accept that amount, and will wait it out until you return it to that price.


 *nods* dunno bout prices being slashed within 24 hours ... some have almost been slashed within hours on a continuos plunge past bargain basement land and straight into rockbottom :whistling2:




> On a side note, can't help but sense an air of bitterness in the replies on this thread. Perhaps because people didn't get what they wanted for their hatching's despite paying big bucks for the breeding adults. Perhaps because they still have babies they can't sell from the begining of the year... anyhoo...


lmao ... psst ~ can I just say I've replied on this thread, I'm not bitter about sales or lack of, I got what I wanted for my babies, I didn't (and dont) spend big bucks buying breeding adults and lastly I've sold all bar three of my babies :Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


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## Montage_Morphs (Jul 6, 2007)

Another point I forgot to make was that I am somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of _the market. _When someone complains of the market being saturated, they are usually referring to _their market. _IE their speciality or point of interest. The entire market cannot be saturated, or else nobody would be making an effort to breed anything on the premise that they could never sell anything. I believe particular aspects of the market are reaching saturation point, but that's what happens when a particular species is easy to breed and easily attainable.


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## Montage_Morphs (Jul 6, 2007)

SleepyD said:


> lmao ... psst ~ can I just say I've replied on this thread, I'm not bitter about sales or lack of, I got what I wanted for my babies, I didn't (and dont) spend big bucks buying breeding adults and lastly I've sold all bar three of my babies :Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


 Well done, but you have no reason to justify yourself to moi...


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

The market is definitely saturated with some species. I was amazed how many leos and corn morphs were for sale at the Doncaster show. Cresties will soon catch up. The clasifieds section is interesting. I think anyone that pays the initial asking price is mad. It makes far more sense to shop around or make a sensible offer. The seller can only say no (There are some exceptions and I'm sure we've all seen the odd bargain, but these are very much in the minority).

To the person who says they're annoyed about big discounts within 24 hours I don't find it annoying but a good indication of the real market value of that animal. It amuses me when people write three paragraphs about how they own a gorgeous specimen that will complement their breeding programmes but may sell it for the right price blah blah. Do they really think people cannot see whats really going on? If you want rid, say so. Don't play the third rate seller game for gods sake!


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## rockkeeper (Apr 5, 2007)

so one lowers the price till it finds its price,


re sells


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Just read this thread guys and I am 'worried' about the 'market' but only because I hate to see animals going to all and sundry in 'panic sales'.

I just took back a leo of mine I sold a few months back, not because I 'need' him for breeding etc (he's a pretty but bog standard Tremper) but because I had him from a hatchling and really agonised over moving him on in the first place. I saw him having to be let go (no fault of the guys who got him off me btw..) and instantly wanted him back where I knew he would get the right care. I'm not saying that to be big headed but I couldn't literally have slept at night thinking he went out to someone who wouldn't or couldn't care for him the way I wanted him to be cared for.

I certainloy won't just 'sell to anyone', I personally check that the guys taking on any of my former leo's (adult or hatchling) know what they are doing and taking on.
The problem with market saturation/cheap prices (£5 beardies, £10 leos etc) is that people thinking of getting one then assume that is the going rate and all want to see quality animals at that price.
Well tough - you will not get me selling any leo at a tenner, ever. They are 'worth' more than that as a living animal that shouldn't be treated as a commodity.....
I am restricting breeding next year to 3 or possibly 4 pairings, mostly to prove suspected hets or as an ongoing 'project'.

I don't think we can decry folks wanting to breed their reps, I certainly find it one of the most exciting parts of rep keeping (saying that I only breed leo's, don't fancy breeding corns etc..). I think as long as people know what they are getting into by breeding then they should be allowed to do so, assuming they can keep any offspring as long as it takes to move them on.
I for example have 'given' away a couple to 2 people who were close friends and showed genuine enthusiasm and interest and who I knew had followed my advice and could come back to me in an emergency if needed. I don't think that is irresponsible, but that it encourages new herpers, something we should all encourage IMO !! :2thumb:

And breathe............ :lol2:


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## Antw23uk (Jan 12, 2009)

Hi all
Just read through this post and its made some really good reading.

Slightly off topic but i find it incredibly selfish and irresponisble of people to still be breeding animals such a beardies/ leos etc just for the sake of it when our rescue centers up and down the country are full of them desperate for new homes.
I had a conversation with a reptile shop the other day when i suggested they were keeping too many baby beardies in one viv. They explained happily that they bred them all themselves to 'save' on the cost of buying them in, but admitted at the moment they had too many and thats why they were maxed out in vivs. 
I pointed out that surely this is a negative way of doing it? Wouldnt it have been better to freeze half the eggs and concentrate on fewer babies which are healthier with no nipped tails/ toes which sell better for a better value and quicker ... I dont think they got my point and i dont think they could see how freezing eggs on a species that has flooded the market where people cant even give them away at the moment was a way forward!


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Montage_Morphs said:


> Another point I forgot to make was that I am somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of _the market. _When someone complains of the market being saturated, they are usually referring to _their market. _IE their speciality or point of interest. The entire market cannot be saturated, or else nobody would be making an effort to breed anything on the premise that they could never sell anything. I believe particular aspects of the market are reaching saturation point, but that's what happens when a particular species is easy to breed and easily attainable.



well since i started this thread, and am a keeper of mainly fat tails, then royal and retic morphs arent my market:whistling2:, dont think anyone has actually mentioned the whole market being saturated? or atleast not the majority

My reason for this thread was from seeing the amount of people purchasing royals and retic morphs in larger figures with the intent of breeding, being in the hobby for a few decades and seeing royals the whole time, i just see a potential problem hitting the hobby in the future, when 1 - the fashion moves on(not meaning everyone by the way) and 2 - when(and if) all these potential hets andf visual animals becoming of breeding age the market will be saturated as many people DO breed even if there is no market and the market for said animals is smaller than the market for corns and leos

Im not the only one to notice this trend, even outside this forum, the potential problem could be a real headache for the hobby as a whole

My other point was its a shame that so many people are breeding 5-6 species and the market and hobby is less diverse than it was 10-15 years ago


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## Montage_Morphs (Jul 6, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> well since i started this thread, and am a keeper of mainly fat tails, then royal and retic morphs arent my market:whistling2:, dont think anyone has actually mentioned the whole market being saturated? or atleast not the majority
> 
> My reason for this thread was from seeing the amount of people purchasing royals and retic morphs in larger figures with the intent of breeding, being in the hobby for a few decades and seeing royals the whole time, i just see a potential problem hitting the hobby in the future, when 1 - the fashion moves on(not meaning everyone by the way) and 2 - when(and if) all these potential hets andf visual animals becoming of breeding age the market will be saturated as many people DO breed even if there is no market and the market for said animals is smaller than the market for corns and leos
> 
> ...


That was my point too  

You know me, I like weird species, and it's just such a damn shame people focus on the big 3 (Boa morphs, royal morphs and corn morphs). All that effort and experience could be put to good use like establishing breeding programs for boelens, candoia, xenopeltis, tropidophis, locale boas etc etc etc...


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Montage_Morphs said:


> That was my point too
> 
> You know me, I like weird species, and it's just such a damn shame people focus on the big 3 (Boa morphs, royal morphs and corn morphs). All that effort and experience could be put to good use like establishing breeding programs for boelens, candoia, xenopeltis, tropidophis, locale boas etc etc etc...



Exactly, if i had the money id be investing in angolans, love the prices on them to drop, also love a few others like boelens to be cracked too:no1:


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## STReptiles (Feb 6, 2009)

The leopard gecko market is completly saturated imo, every shop i go in they have leo's for sale, theres even a rabbit, mouse type shop that are selling unhealthy leos in my local high street and i live in a relativly small town. I think royals are going this way aswell. I think breeders can say i love the hobby its not about the money but deep down we all know it is.
Corn prices are stupidly low now and they are sold to everyone and anyone in some shops, i dont think the hobby is heading in a good direction tbh, if the prices where kept higher then there wouldnt be people thinking wow a snake for 20 quid im getting one....board in a month and cba to change the water etc... what im saying is if prices where higher then people would think a little more before buying a reptile.

Disclaimer: THIS IS MY OPINION.


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## snickers (Aug 15, 2007)

I left the hoby 10 years ago. People were saying exactly the same thing then. Corns were #5-10 to a shop then and still are.

I see part of the problem is specialization, both at an individual level and as hobby. We specialize in corns, royals and precious little else. Bairds rats are quite difficult to find now, and trans-pecos rats almost non-existent. Children's and Spotteds are still quite difficult to get too. Kings and milks are far less common now than 10 years ago.

There are a few groups that are very slowly becoming available and there must be an opportunity with asian ratsnakes. If someone could crack how to breed Elaphe climacaphora subspecies it would open up a group of the prettiest snakes going


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## Breadrun (Mar 1, 2007)

I totally agree that the market is saturated, i remember just a couple of years back corns were roughly £60 in a shop and Leo's between £40 - 60 and Bearded Dragon's were usually around £80-120 now the prices are rediculous (corns £20, Leos £20 and Beardies £40), there are some species which are still emerging in the UK market like URO's and many others, theres even the emmergance of the African Pygmy Hedgehog in the mammal world which are very expensive to buy, soon we'll probably see them at £20, the main problem (which has already been stated) is the lower prices cause impulse buys (like myself who when i was 12 bought a berber skink for £15 and my mum ended up having to buy all the gear for him) problem is many shops (not all) are well mis-informed or just want to get rid of the animal so they tell the potential buyer a load of crap about how they live and the problems then start.

I do believe the market will die down in about a decade due to the emmergence of new mammals coming on the market (because the APH has really opened doors to new and different exotic mammals) but there will still be a strong leigance for the reptile owners, more and more reptile shows are happening now and more and more people are learning about the fabulous hobby and one way to ensure quality is to bring the prices up and the only way to do that would be to have sensible breeders who dont just buy a reptile and think "as soon as she breeding weight ill breed her", we need to get back to how it was 10years ago because i feel the reptiles are being exploited because people think there easier to keep and breed than dogs and that just isnt the case, a reptile is one of the most challenging animals to keep (unless you have experiance or know wot your doing)

sorry to go on a bit :lol2: feel like i deserve a:no1:for that


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## purple-vixen (Feb 4, 2009)

STReptiles said:


> The leopard gecko market is completly saturated imo, every shop i go in they have leo's for sale, theres even a rabbit, mouse type shop that are selling unhealthy leos in my local high street and i live in a relativly small town. I think royals are going this way aswell. I think breeders can say i love the hobby its not about the money but deep down we all know it is.
> Corn prices are stupidly low now and they are sold to everyone and anyone in some shops, i dont think the hobby is heading in a good direction tbh, if the prices where kept higher then there wouldnt be people thinking wow a snake for 20 quid im getting one....board in a month and cba to change the water etc... what im saying is if prices where higher then people would think a little more before buying a reptile.
> 
> Disclaimer: THIS IS MY OPINION.


I totally agree. Very good point, because I remember when I was 11, we went into a massive garden centre, and I was like "Dad, wow a snake!" and I remember him saying, "Yes, but you're not having one, it's too expensive and you're too young to look after it." I remember it was a corn snake, and £160.

I'm now 24 and absolutely shocked at how many people that are younger than 11 and have corn snakes, and as to how little they paid too. A friend of mine was telling me that a few weeks ago, his friends son bought a corn snake for £25  How much of a drop is that?! Especially when not 2 years ago, corn snakes were in excess of £150 for certain morphs...

It is saturated, and TBH I feel it could go a bad way.


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> I think only time will tell, still sub £100 albino royals wont be long off:lol2:
> 
> I just so worry about the hobby sometimes, i was talking to a mate about years ago and the variety in shops, really miss those times, so many species that people will never experience:gasp:


Tell me about it ten years ago when living in Ireland went to pet shop in dublin and saw a rosy boa yearling at 60 quid and the variety really was amazing to see, now hardly see rosy boas and when they pop up are pricey due to the scarcety (sp). 
As for saturation and people jumping into the breeding side after a few monthes keeping a couple of snakes for this reason decided I no longer have interest in breeding reps anymore and what have now would only consider as pets. Tarantulas on other hand will still breed when they mature and get something worthwhile investing the time into.


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## Jade01 (Feb 21, 2007)

purple-vixen said:


> I totally agree. Very good point, because I remember when I was 11, we went into a massive garden centre, and I was like "Dad, wow a snake!" and I remember him saying, "Yes, but you're not having one, it's too expensive and you're too young to look after it." I remember it was a corn snake, and £160.
> 
> I'm now 24 and absolutely shocked at how many people that are younger than 11 and have corn snakes, and as to how little they paid too. A friend of mine was telling me that a few weeks ago, his friends son bought a corn snake for £25  How much of a drop is that?! Especially when not 2 years ago, corn snakes were in excess of £150 for certain morphs...
> 
> *It is saturated, and TBH I feel it could go a bad way.*


I already think it has and is. IMO, there's far too many people buying the 'cheaper' royal morphs and breeding them, all at the same time... why?! When they know there is half of the reptile keeping population doing the same thing.

The same situation with corns and leo's. You can't even give them away anymore, yet people still insist to breed their normal corns and leos to 'make money' its not going to happen. Even if they are doing it for the educational side of it, there's enough on the internet nowadays where you can learn without putting it into practise, I mean purely on the species mentioned.

People need to stop breeding for the sake of breeding, and trying to use it as a way to make a quick bit of cash.

(all my opinions, not saying i am the messiah or anything!)


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