# the elvolving pedigree dog



## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

with all the changes being made to pedigree dog standards,here's a look at dogs of the past.The book can be read online,or just enjoy turning the pages and looking at the pics
Dogs of all nations


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

Wow, thats really interesting to see how much some breeds have changed, and how some havent!!

Im always fascinated by the history of the breeds i own and love to research it. The basenji is my real favourite, they have an amazing history and have hardly changed in thousands of years... see...

Cave painting:










Ancient Egyptian basenji:










And my 21st Century basenji


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

wow the bull terrier has no domed head...a few of those are different to today, was an interesting look


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## blade100 (Sep 26, 2009)

the german shepherd looks completley different to the gsd nowadays.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Yes, very interesting to see which breeds still look the same and which have changed drastically and which sadly aren't around any more!


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## Gina. (Sep 9, 2009)

I really love the way GSD's used to look. I hate the slopey back they have now..

(I know nothing about dogs btw, i'm just going by the way they look.)


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Couldn't see an Afghan Hound though, even though they are accepted as one of the oldest breeds of dog - unless they were known as something different then, although to my knowledge none of the names they were known by appear in the book??


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

feorag said:


> Couldn't see an Afghan Hound though, even though they are accepted as one of the oldest breeds of dog - unless they were known as something different then, although to my knowledge none of the names they were known by appear in the book??


No basenji's either and they are also considered one of the oldest breeds :whistling2:

I dont think its a definitive guide to dog breeds, but fascinating none the less.


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

No Shihtzus .... :gasp:


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

Myjb23 said:


> No basenji's either and they are also considered one of the oldest breeds :whistling2:
> 
> I dont think its a definitive guide to dog breeds, but fascinating none the less.


Because the book was written in *1915* when Basenjis weren't known in the UK. Vanessa Tudor Williams 'discovered' them and brought them over much later. You can't blame a book for being inaccurate as to what _wasn't_ known at the time. It's a definitive guide to the breeds that were known *at the time*. I might as well read a cat book from that era and complain there were no Burmese in it.

And I may be wrong but Shih Tzu's weren't in the UK then either.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

Um, i wasnt complaining, just responding to a comment made by someone else. I didnt even notice when the book was written.

No need to be so rude.


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

Myjb23 said:


> Um, i wasnt complaining, just responding to a comment made by someone else. I didnt even notice when the book was written. No need to be so rude.


My apologies.... No rudeness intended at all... I thought you had noted the date of the book but wasn't aware of when the breed/s had come to the UK.

If you are a Basenji fan you will love this, from 1954:
British Pathe - BASENJIS

and this from 1938:
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=36979


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

ami_j said:


> wow the bull terrier has no domed head...a few of those are different to today, was an interesting look


exacly the same thought as me! i dunno i kinda prefer the now look, but nether the less, Stunning dogs! Why'd it all have to change :bash:


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

ami_j said:


> wow the bull terrier has no domed head...a few of those are different to today, was an interesting look


Nop! English bull terrier domed head served no pupose in it's history as is wasn't even there.The domed head evoled in the show ring though judge selction.

1).Beginning of showing.









2).mid time of showing.









3).Todays showing.









Skull shape though time.


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

temeraire said:


> Because the book was written in *1915* when Basenjis weren't known in the UK. Vanessa Tudor Williams 'discovered' them and brought them over much later. You can't blame a book for being inaccurate as to what _wasn't_ known at the time. It's a definitive guide to the breeds that were known *at the time*. I might as well read a cat book from that era and complain there were no Burmese in it.
> 
> And I may be wrong but Shih Tzu's weren't in the UK then either.



no staffies, but im pretty sure they were about then. 

shame there not love seeing the old staffs. Some still about in a way a mate of mine has an old time staff.


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

gazz said:


> Nop! English bull terrier domed head served no pupose in it's history.The domed head evoled in the show ring though judge selction.
> 
> 1).Beginning of showing.
> image
> ...


fancy posing up the same kinda thing for staffs? :whistling2:


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

Ahhh so that explains the shihtzus, Anyone know a link of what they would have looked like, i cant seen to find one :notworthy:


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

Nebbz said:


> no staffies, but im pretty sure they were about then.
> shame there not love seeing the old staffs. Some still about in a way a mate of mine has an old time staff.


Staffy and EBT in 1939:
British Pathe - TERRIER DOG SHOW IN LONDON


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

Nebbz said:


> no staffies, but im pretty sure they were about then.


They were about, yes.... but not officially recognised as a breed by the KC until 1935. Which is why you won't find a great deal about them in old books and film, til that time.


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

nebbz when people call staffs a olde tyme staff 99.99% of the time pit bulls so id assum your mate has a pitbull,as for the dogs english bull terriers look a million times better now and the staff looks the same.


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

How great is this.... taken of wikipedia-

*The Shih Tzu was almost completely wiped out during the British invasion of China. Seven males and seven females were saved, and today, all shih tzus can be traced back to one of these dogs*

I was 14 dogs away from never having my emmy scremmy :gasp:


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

sophs87 said:


> How great is this.... taken of wikipedia-
> 
> *The Shih Tzu was almost completely wiped out during the British invasion of China. Seven males and seven females were saved, and today, all shih tzus can be traced back to one of these dogs*
> 
> I was 14 dogs away from never having my emmy scremmy :gasp:


Shih Tzu from 1968:
British Pathe - RICHMOND DOG SHOW
The breed was first recognised by the KC in 1940.


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## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

very interesting read! loved the video link too!


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## Gina. (Sep 9, 2009)

gazz said:


> Nop! English bull terrier domed head served no pupose in it's history as is wasn't even there.The domed head evoled in the show ring though judge selction.
> 
> 1).Beginning of showing.
> image
> ...


I think number 1 looks way better


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

temeraire said:


> Because the book was written in *1915* when Basenjis weren't known in the UK. .


Have to admit I didn't read the date either and that would explain no Afghan Hound cos the first wasn't brought into Britain until 1920.

So are they saying that all those breeds were known in Britain in 1915??? Cos I find that very surprising!


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Nebbz said:


> no staffies, but im pretty sure they were about then.
> 
> shame there not love seeing the old staffs. Some still about in a way a mate of mine has an old time staff.


There's a differace between a breed exstisting and a breed being reconized by KC the breeds that aren't in the book likly aren't known to the KC.The English bull terrier found it's was into the show ring before the staffordshire bull terrier.

The real old looking English bull terrier still lives today but in India as the British took them over to India in the eurly stages.This is the Indian bull terrier that is basically the English bull terrier in true form.The Indians carryed on breeding them true to form.And still does today.So in truth you could use these as studs for current show English bull terrriers.

Indian bull terrier.









For a old tyme bull terrier you breed a English bull terrier to a Staffordshire bull terrer a equal 50/50 cross.As they stemed from the same stock the look is spot on of a (50%SBT X 50%EBT).Go over 50/50 you lose the look.

Old tyme bull terrier(50%SBT/50%EBT).









Old tyme bull terrier(50%SBT/50%EBT).









Old tyme bull terrier(50%SBT/50%EBT).









Old tyme bull terrier(50%SBT/50%EBT).









Pictures of bull terriers from the past.


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## 2manydogs (Oct 23, 2007)

they look like the ingle bred bullterrier much better looking than the modern ebt if you ask me.


www.thunderrockoldtymebullbreeds.co.uk - ingles bull photos


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Done a bit more research 

_"The first recorded appearance of the Afghan Hound in the West was in the latter part of the 19th century, when British officers and others returning from the Indian-Afghanistan border wars, brought dogs from that area back to England, some of which were exhibited at dog shows as Afghan Hounds. These aroused some interest but no real enthusiasm until 1907, when Captain Barff brought from Persia via India his dog Zardin, well-coated dog with a dark mask and a great deal of style. This, English dog fanciers decided, was what an Afghan Hound should be! There was some breeding of Afghan Hounds in Great Britain at this time, and some specimens from there or Afghanistan may have reached America prior to World War I._

In the book the closest I could see to the original Afghan as it was when it was first imported (and had nothing like the coat you see today) was the Persian Greyhound.

I'm wondering whether, even though it was known then as an Afghan Hound, it was referred to as a Persian Greyhound because Zardin was imported from Persia???


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

2manydogs said:


> they look like the ingle bred bullterrier much better looking than the modern ebt if you ask me.
> 
> 
> www.thunderrockoldtymebullbreeds.co.uk - ingles bull photos


Same thing: victory: Ingles is just the breeding line for that line of Old tyme bull terrier.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Nebbz said:


> fancy posing up the same kinda thing for staffs? :whistling2:




































Lots of old staffie pictures.
History
Old-pics-Staffies

Here's my staffy.









Here's her great grand dad.
CH Teutonic Warrior


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

the older bull terriers look a hell of a lot better the third one that gazz posted its head looks awful all domed out


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

I am so pleased that Greyhounds haven't changed much over the years (mind i love Racing Greyhounds & i'm not too keen on the Show ones). To me Racers will still do the job they were bred for, whereas i feel a Show Greyhound will struggle to turn a hare due to their size.


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

corny girl said:


> I am so pleased that Greyhounds haven't changed much over the years (mind i love Racing Greyhounds & i'm not too keen on the Show ones). To me Racers will still do the job they were bred for, whereas i feel a Show Greyhound will struggle to turn a hare due to their size.


Just for you, the 89th Waterloo Cup in 1924:
British Pathe - THE DOG COURSING


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

The Boston Terrier looks like a Pit Bull! :gasp:


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*dogs of the past*

I quite liked the smooth pekinese.I've always fancied a peke but they are just a bit to extreme for me to be comfortable .The french bulldogs which I've got don't look much different,bit lighter and leggier.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*dog breed standards being altered*



Gina. said:


> I really love the way GSD's used to look. I hate the slopey back they have now..
> 
> (I know nothing about dogs btw, i'm just going by the way they look.)


this is one of the breeds thats under the most scrutiny at the moment because of problems caused by the bannana shaped back.


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

temeraire said:


> Just for you, the 89th Waterloo Cup in 1924:
> British Pathe - THE DOG COURSING



Thanks hun, it's nice to see that the breed hasn't really changed much over the years (those Coursers look much like the present day Racers do). Coursing Greyhounds of today are much bigger than that :2thumb:.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Shame there isn't pics of clipped working Cockers in there, or maybe I'm just missing them! The Bull Terriers from back then looks gorgeous, much better then the domed dogs that are shown right now. :flrt: I was happy to see how little the Setters and Pointers have changed, also. 



Zoo-Man said:


> The Boston Terrier looks like a Pit Bull! :gasp:


My brother commented that the Boston Terrier looked similar to Pit-type/boxer x staff dogs! I was very shocked to see that dog in particular, it may be just the way it's standing but the neck and back look very arched and unhealthy.


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## Matt Lusty (Aug 20, 2008)

The pic in the book of the Bull Terrier looks a spitting image of our Diesel. Even having the semi erect ears unlike the modern EBT's today. Could Diesel be an OTeBT?


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Zoo-Man said:


> The Boston Terrier looks like a Pit Bull! :gasp:


That coz they are pit bulls: victory: there just not American pit bull terriers.There old name is the Boston flat nose bull terrier.That why i call them Boston bull terrier.Coz i find it odd that the Boston's have the most bulldog influance face out of all the bull terrier breeds yet the bull is left out the name.


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## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

gazz said:


> That coz they are pit bulls: victory: there just not American pit bull terriers.There old name is the Boston flat nose bull terrier.That why i call them Boston bull terrier.Coz i find it odd that the Boston's have the most bulldog influance face out of all the bull terrier breeds yet the bull is left out the name.
> 
> image
> image
> ...


i love boston terriers! great little dogs!....amazing how they are pretty much unchanged in all this time as well!....i do think the bull breeds in general are such fantastic dogs! (that get a very bad reputation because of their original purposes, and their looks!) and again not really THAT different today to their ancestors, the english bull terrier has changed a fair amount...but i actually prefer the modern day look of the ebt`s myself...


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## kirksandallchinchillas (Sep 29, 2009)

It always amazes me how some breeds have not changed over the years but others have become exaggerated versions of the originals. In most cases the breed standards have not altered a great deal but the look of the Westie, Scottie and Sheltie (page 30) which look nothing like the modern versions. 

The Deerhound on the same page has not changed much over the decades.


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

kirksandallchinchillas said:


> It always amazes me how some breeds have not changed over the years but others have become exaggerated versions of the originals. In most cases the breed standards have not altered a great deal but the look of the Westie, Scottie and Sheltie (page 30) which look nothing like the modern versions.
> 
> The Deerhound on the same page has not changed much over the decades.



I thought the old Westie looked more like todays Cairn :lol2:.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*changing appearence*



kirksandallchinchillas said:


> In most cases the breed standards have not altered a great deal but the look of the Westie, Scottie and Sheltie (page 30) which look nothing like the modern versions.


I was surprised by the sheltie,looks like a small working/border collie.Bet it would have been fab at agility.I like the scottie,I wondered if the hair cut may have contributed to it's different look.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

gazz said:


> That coz they are pit bulls: victory: there just not American pit bull terriers.There old name is the Boston flat nose bull terrier.That why i call them Boston bull terrier.Coz i find it odd that the Boston's have the most bulldog influance face out of all the bull terrier breeds yet the bull is left out the name.
> 
> image
> image
> ...


My Daisy is better hehe : victory:


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## leggy (Jan 18, 2007)

corny girl said:


> I thought the old Westie looked more like todays Cairn :lol2:.


they were supposed to share the same ancestors.


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## 2manydogs (Oct 23, 2007)

sarahc said:


> I was surprised by the sheltie,looks like a small working/border collie.


well it was the shetland sheepdog it was the show lot that added rough collie blood to it to make it what it is today.


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