# Pinch/Pronged Collars



## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

I have worked in animal care for more than 30 years and with particular emphasis in the world of dogs, and in all that time I have never had anyone ask me about pronged/pinch collars (with a view to buying/using one). This month I have had 2 enquiries from people wanting them and have had a dog brought into the shop wearing one. 
Anyone throw any light on what might have given rise to this depressing trend?

Needless to say I politely declined to assist in the location of such equipment.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

Seen them used recently on the Dog whisperer. Maybe stems from that being as it's a US show and they are more common place.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Pimperella said:


> Seen them used recently on the Dog whisperer. Maybe stems from that being as it's a US show and they are more common place.


It wouldn't surprise me, often tv programs inspire people to purchase training equipment. Scary considering that one woman asked for *'one of those new collars that stabs the dog on the neck when it pulls'*
I didn't waste my breath telling her they were cruel because considering her turn of phrase, I don't believe she cared :bash:


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Am American, and I still think they're barbaric. When I was working in the last pet shop I was in, I refused to order one... And got told off by my boss.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

I refuse to watch the Dog Whisperer as i think its completely cruel. These collars are evil and at the end of the day if an owner thinks they need 1 its probably because it needs to be used on them in person not their poor pets. What ever happened to chilly sunday mornings at dog training schools?


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Amalthea said:


> Am American, and I still think they're barbaric. When I was working in the last pet shop I was in, I refused to order one... And got told off by my boss.


Good for you, if my boss decided to stock them I would quit.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

selina20 said:


> What ever happened to chilly sunday mornings at dog training schools?


The fact they cost a bomb when you get what is pretty much simple and could be tought at home? lol.

IMO if people want dogs they should learn to train them properly BEFORE they get one. It dosent take a genius to train to walk properly, sit, wait, lay down, leave it and no!

I hate most training collars on the market and people shouldnt need them anyway. For bigger dogs I agree with using gentle leaders but people have this thing about using them on dogs that pull on the lead instead of training them properly :bash:


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

It worries me that people think inflicting pain on an animal is a "good training method" it kinda negates the whole process. I wonder if people think that the item does the job for you!

Dogs need to be taught not to pull there are plenty of ways to do it without using anything that claims to "help".

Marina


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I'm pretty sure they are illegal to use in the UK!!!!

Cesar Milan does not advise people to use the prong collars though he uses the equipment that the owner already uses. He usually advises the use of his new 'double collars' which I'd love to try with my rottie who, no matter what training you give, pulls like a train when he sees a cat!!!!
They cost a fortune though in hte US and Canada and then you have to get them sent over which the manufacturer will not do. I have a friend over there who would get one for me but I'm not paying stupid money for a collar I use a halti instead.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

saxon said:


> my rottie who, no matter what training you give, pulls like a train when he sees a cat!!


Desensitisation will fix that. My rottie used to think all cats were his friends. Then he made friends with one and now he only wants to get close to this particular cat.
Damn cat used to let itself in my house during the summer good job my dog wasn't the shredding kind!
Marina


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Marinam2 said:


> Desensitisation will fix that. My rottie used to think all cats were his friends. Then he made friends with one and now he only wants to get close to this particular cat.
> Damn cat used to let itself in my house during the summer good job my dog wasn't the shredding kind!
> Marina


So your saying Saxon needs a cat so it can make friends with the rottie? :lol2::Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> So your saying Saxon needs a cat so it can make friends with the rottie?


Yes. Yes i am.

Marina


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

LoveForLizards said:


> So your saying Saxon needs a cat so it can make friends with the rottie? :lol2::Na_Na_Na_Na:





Marinam2 said:


> Yes. Yes i am.
> 
> Marina


i am afraid its not always the case i have a springer cross who will try to get cats but i own a cat who was here when i got the springer.....she also has to go on a halti despite going to training classes she still pulls like mad


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

mask-of-sanity said:


> She also has to go on a halti despite going to training classes she still pulls like mad


Have you tried sausages?

Marina


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Marinam2 said:


> Have you tried sausages?
> 
> Marina


got to be careful with treats as I have known dogs to start walking backwards as they are to concentrated on the treat, after New year I have a labrador that is doing this to re train


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

????????????????? whats the problem with a dog in reverse?
Marina


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

Marinam2 said:


> ????????????????? whats the problem with a dog in reverse?
> Marina


i quite agree


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> So your saying Saxon needs a cat so it can make friends with the rottie? :lol2::Na_Na_Na_Na:


I already have four cats at home.

Saxon will be in the living room being very good with them and then when one moves a little too quickly he chases it.
It's not too bad with my cats, he isnt' wanting to hurt them at all, he 'catches' them then craps himself because they give him a hiding.
We've had him for almost over three years now since he was just over a year old. He'd never seen cats before I got him and had been kept in a pub.

There was one occasion when he chased my 12yr old cat, Fruitcat, when he 'found' her she was on the computer chair upstairs. He didnt' touch her as she was stood on the chair as if she had a flick knife and baseball bat ready to do him in. He yelped and ran away.

Every time I've had Rotties before, I had 7 rescues the first time they were 'devil dogs', I never had problems with them but Saxon is just like a puppy even though he's four years old.
Now I have more time I'm taking him into the basketball court and giving him one2one training so he is getting alot better with walkking etc and does all the sit,stay, heel basic work but he still acts like a spanner when he sees cats when we're out.


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

Marinam2 said:


> Have you tried sausages?
> 
> Marina


no i dont and i wouldnt anyway my dogs dont get treats, any traing is done with there dry food...she is great in every other way except on the lead...in a field she stays by me until i tell her otherwise and her recall is brill but you walk on the streets she pulls and knows where all the cats live round here so thats what she focuses on


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## bendigo (Jan 28, 2008)

Marinam2 said:


> ????????????????? whats the problem with a dog in reverse?
> Marina




a dog in reverse is god, and we all know how much trouble he causes :devil:


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

I've spent sometime in the states and have used the prong collar on dogs there and have to say it isn't the horrific piece of equipment folk seem to think it is. The prongs are blunt, the chain curls over them and works in a similar manner to a check chain, all perfectly harmless if used correctly, bare in mind a dog pulling on the lead at the base of their necks are doing serious damage to their trachea which gets progressively worse. 

Dogs are reactionary animals they don't need telling more than twice if you do the job correctly, watch an animal when first introduced to the clicker training method and you will see the connection is made very quickly between behaviour, click and treat. If there's nothing better in it for the dog they don't co-operate ergo a dog with a high prey drive gains more reward from the chasing of a cat than it does from whatever the human is attempting to stop the behaviour.


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## mrsfluff (Jul 15, 2007)

saxon said:


> I already have four cats at home.
> 
> Saxon will be in the living room being very good with them and then when one moves a little too quickly he chases it.
> It's not too bad with my cats, he isnt' wanting to hurt them at all, he 'catches' them then craps himself because they give him a hiding.
> ...


He sounds lovely!

Jo


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

saxon said:


> I already have four cats at home.
> 
> Saxon will be in the living room being very good with them and then when one moves a little too quickly he chases it.
> It's not too bad with my cats, he isnt' wanting to hurt them at all, he 'catches' them then craps himself because they give him a hiding.
> We've had him for almost over three years now since he was just over a year old. He'd never seen cats before I got him and had been kept in a pub.


This is exactly what my GSD does. She has been to both basic and advanced training at the GSD club of Wales, was trained very early as a puppy. We have had two cats for a year now - since she was 8 months old, and before that she spent at least one or two evenings a week at my mothers house with 5 cats. She is fine with the cats at home, they can sleep on her, and she doesn't care... but if she sees one moving quickly, whoooooosh she's off, she doesn't even seem to register any sort of thinking unfortunately, just movement = chase. If she catches it, she licks it on the head, the cat will turn around and hiss and she'll run away scared, never any aggression at all, just chase instinct. 

Outside she is the same, I use a halti because she would pull me off my feet in pursuit of cat. She doesn't do it at all with small dogs, just cats. She will totally ignore rewards and sausages... she was clicker trained as a puppy and did commands like sit, down, stay, etc. very fast with clicker training but it's as though she is deaf with a cat there, she totally focuses on it and all else is invisible, and once the cat is out of site, she just totally switches off again and is fine and attentive. It's bizarre.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I think by now, most of you know my opinion of these pieces of equipment.

I was there when the chavvy woman asked myself & Helen (Evie) if we sold "the collars that stab the dog in the neck". We both looked at each other in shock! Its lucky Helen answered the woman before me, as I would have given the woman a mouthful. :devil:


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Schip said:


> Dogs are reactionary animals they don't need telling more than twice if you do the job correctly, watch an animal when first introduced to the clicker training method and you will see the connection is made very quickly between behaviour, click and treat. If there's nothing better in it for the dog they don't co-operate ergo a dog with a high prey drive gains more reward from the chasing of a cat than it does from whatever the human is attempting to stop the behaviour.


The same argument can be applied to the use of forceful methods. If the dog is eager enough to get to where it wants to go it will pull through the pain of any kind of collar. I see more dogs gagging on the end of choke chains than I do on flat collars. A dog that pulls through a choke chain or pinch collar is more likely to injure itself than a dog on a halti or harness. 
The old 'if used correctly' argument doesn't cut it with me because people generally buy and use them with no guidance or supervision and the dog suffers as a result of this. Using this kind of equipment on tv is highly irresponsible and even if Milan doesn't actively endorse them, he is condoning them.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> The fact they cost a bomb when you get what is pretty much simple and could be tought at home? lol.


I don't think dog training classes are expensive or pointless. 
How can you learn to train a dog before you get one??
Training classes average at around a fiver a session round here and for that you get expert guidance, controlled socialisation and the company of like minded people.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Evie said:


> I don't think dog training classes are expensive or pointless.
> How can you learn to train a dog before you get one??
> Training classes average at around a fiver a session round here and for that you get expert guidance, controlled socialisation and the company of like minded people.


I never said they are pointless, if I got a pup I would take it to training classes for the socialisation, discussion with other people and the fact I love them LOL. But around here they are about £25 for a session per week. Not exactly pocket money for what they are taught, and for those who are training for a gun/falconry dog it is even more expensive.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> I never said they are pointless, if I got a pup I would take it to training classes for the socialisation, discussion with other people and the fact I love them LOL. But around here they are about £25 for a session per week. Not exactly pocket money for what they are taught, and for those who are training for a gun/falconry dog it is even more expensive.


 Good grief that is expensive! I'm setting up a class where you are............. where is that by the way :lol2:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Evie said:


> Good grief that is expensive! I'm setting up a class where you are............. where is that by the way :lol2:


West mids, I swear everything is more expensive around here :lol2:
I thought it was normal price, maybe not!


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Mine was £5 per session for two hours with very experienced breed specific handlers, and there is one beginners, one advanced, one ringcraft and one agility class per week, all the same cost. Would highly recommend training to anyone, I (and Skye) learnt a lot!


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> West mids, I swear everything is more expensive around here :lol2:
> I thought it was normal price, maybe not!


 
Its £5 more up here lol your looking at paying £30 for an hours session here with a dog trainer :bash:

I have always done all my training myself...........but i do ask others that are experienced if im struggling with anything as Evie knows :lol2:


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

I paid £5 for an hour when i found one in cambs but it was dreadful and i disagreed with their methods so don't go anymore. If i were paying £30 i'd be wanting a one on one.

Marina


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Marinam2 said:


> I paid £5 for an hour when i found one in cambs but it was dreadful and i disagreed with their methods so don't go anymore. If i were paying £30 i'd be wanting a one on one.
> 
> Marina


Where I am it's around £5-£7 for a 'group' session but it can be as high as £50 for a session one2one.
Again it depends who you are going to and what 'real' experience they have.

I took Saxon to the group sessions when I first got him, I'm no longer interested in the obedience training, I prefer the dog to be trained to behave.

Years ago we took the rotties to training and had them command trained from 100yds but I haven't got the time now and I just want a 'well behaved' pet as well as a dog that will look after us.
I'm 100% positive that if I spent 6 months obedience training Saxon he would be excellent, he's already very good in every aspect, except chasing cats.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Evie said:


> The same argument can be applied to the use of forceful methods. If the dog is eager enough to get to where it wants to go it will pull through the pain of any kind of collar. I see more dogs gagging on the end of choke chains than I do on flat collars. A dog that pulls through a choke chain or pinch collar is more likely to injure itself than a dog on a halti or harness.
> The old 'if used correctly' argument doesn't cut it with me because people generally buy and use them with no guidance or supervision and the dog suffers as a result of this. Using this kind of equipment on tv is highly irresponsible and even if Milan doesn't actively endorse them, he is condoning them.


 
Very True! :2thumb:


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Just to underline the real issues with punishment v postive traininng methods: Last night after a party, a few people came back to our house. Colin was having a play at clicker training with my little heeler. During the 15 minute session there were a few clicks at the wrong time, a few rewards at the wrong time and lots of the dog doing the wrong behaviours. Had we been training using any other method, the results could have been quite harmful - as it was, the dog had a load of fun, got loads of treats and if she learnt any inappropriate behaviour, it will very easily be put right. 
Novice trainers (and experienced ones) sometimes mis read things and get the timing wrong. Since most dog owners are novice trainers isn't it more sensible to equip them with effective tools and techniques that can't do any harm when they make mistakes?


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Evie said:


> Just to underline the real issues with punishment v postive traininng methods: Last night after a party, a few people came back to our house. Colin was having a play at clicker training with my little heeler. During the 15 minute session there were a few clicks at the wrong time, a few rewards at the wrong time and lots of the dog doing the wrong behaviours. Had we been training using any other method, the results could have been quite harmful - as it was, the dog had a load of fun, got loads of treats and if she learnt any inappropriate behaviour, it will very easily be put right.
> Novice trainers (and experienced ones) sometimes mis read things and get the timing wrong. *Since most dog owners are novice trainers isn't it more sensible to equip them with effective tools and techniques that can't do any harm when they make mistakes?*


Exactly my point with people. IMO slip leads, choke chains, gentle leaders, prong collars, pinch collars, canny collars, prods, reins and many more "training aids" should not be allowed to be put on shop shelves, and only sold by dog trainers or vets.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> Exactly my point with people. IMO slip leads, choke chains, gentle leaders, prong collars, pinch collars, canny collars, prods, reins and many more "training aids" should not be allowed to be put on shop shelves, and only sold by dog trainers or vets.


There lies the problem, they wouldn't make enough sales because there aren't enough dog trainers left who are still using these techniques (just the odd dinosaur). Most good dog trainers are informed enough to have discovered that there are better ways. The kind of people we get asking for punitive equipment are....well.......ermm.........lacking intelligence


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

cesar milan tends to use what the owners have been using, or advises them on better gentler methods. i have never seen him be cruel to any dog. and lets face it he gets results. and his 'sound' methods work well. my dogs work with hand signals, but i have been backing up any 'boistrous' behaviour with 'sounds', and its brilliant. imo you dont have to use force. years ago when we had a really strong springer i used a halti with him. two weeks and he didnt need it any more.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Lynne said:


> cesar milan tends to use what the owners have been using,


 Well he shouldn't!!! If he condemed the use of harsh and dangerous equipment, I wouldn't have ignorant people asking me for equipment that can do serious damage to their dogs, because they have seen him using them! :bash:


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

Evie said:


> Well he shouldn't!!! If he condemed the use of harsh and dangerous equipment, I wouldn't have ignorant people asking me for equipment that can do serious damage to their dogs, because they have seen him using them! :bash:


he uses them if he considers them suitable. and lets face it, HE does know what he is doing. i have never seen dogs react so positively to one man.
and if you are going to quote then quote the whole sentence.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Lynne said:


> he uses them if he considers them suitable. and lets face it, HE does know what he is doing. i have never seen dogs react so positively to one man.
> and if you are going to quote then quote the whole sentence.


He may know what he is doing BUT the people who he influences through the magic of tv do not. I have not made any references to Milan or his methods, he is clearly very sucessful. I have a different approach to dog training which also works very well.
My appologies for not quoting the whole sentence - I just wanted to quote the bit that I was refering to.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Lynne said:


> he uses them if he considers them suitable. and lets face it, HE does know what he is doing. i have never seen dogs react so positively to one man.
> and if you are going to quote then quote the whole sentence.


So he thinks pinch collars are suitable??? Well that says a lot!


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> So he thinks pinch collars are suitable??? Well that says a lot!


I always say try the collars on yourself first before you put them on your dog, then you will get an idea of how your dog will feel. Plus most of the time you will find its the owner who needs to wear the collar anyway, not the dog.

Positive training is the only way to go. These types of collars are vile and a form of tourture.

Anyone using one is nothing more than an animal abuser, dog trainer or not.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

marthaMoo said:


> I always say try the collars on yourself first before you put them on your dog, then you will get an idea of how your dog will feel. Plus most of the time you will find its the owner who needs to wear the collar anyway, not the dog.
> 
> Positive training is the only way to go. These types of collars are vile and a form of tourture.
> 
> Anyone using one is nothing more than an animal abuser, dog trainer or not.


:no1::2thumb::no1::2thumb:


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> So he thinks pinch collars are suitable??? Well that says a lot!


i dont think he does no!!! where did i say he did. you only need to watch the dogs when he walks in the room to realise he has the mental ability to put himself in the dogs position. he very rarely has to use any aids, and thats how it should be. and i doubt he could manage a pack the size he has using cruelty.
years ago when i had my first dogs, all you had were collars and leads, and years ago there were very few unhappy dogs about.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Lynne said:


> and i doubt he could manage a pack the size he has using cruelty.


All I have seen from him is bullying dogs into submission. 
And it really isnt that difficult to make a dog submisive, I find alot of peoples problems is they dont show they are strong enough to be pack leader and therefore dont deserve for the dog to be submissive and they dont need bullying into a behaviour. 


Lynne said:


> i dont think he does no!!! where did i say he did.


Earlier you said:

"he uses them if he considers them suitable. ".

PS: Ace post Marthamoo :no1:


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

You can control a pack that big by using various methods, not all are good.

I dont know why people seem to think he's so great because he has a big pack of dogs on his program, and because his methods seem to work on some dogs. Just because he has a big group of dogs together doesnt mean jack. And his methods do not work on all dogs, infact it can have the oposite result.

Its a bit like saying the Lion at the circus must be happy performing for crowds and being kept behind bars in a small enclosure, because if it wasnt it would eat its trainer, wouldnt it?

If its not positive training its cruelty.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

marthaMoo said:


> You can control a pack that big by using various methods, not all are good.
> 
> I dont know why people seem to think he's so great because he has a big pack of dogs on his program, and because his methods seem to work on some dogs. Just because he has a big group of dogs together doesnt mean jack. And his methods do not work on all dogs, infact it can have the oposite result.
> 
> ...


:notworthy: and I would like to add that all the people that work at the rehab centre keep they're dogs there so alot of those dogs arn't even Cesars.


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> All I have seen from him is bullying dogs into submission.
> And it really isnt that difficult to make a dog submisive, I find alot of peoples problems is they dont show they are strong enough to be pack leader and therefore dont deserve for the dog to be submissive and they dont need bullying into a behaviour.
> 
> Earlier you said:
> ...


i said, he uses what the owners have used IF he considers them suitable. and tbh he does not bully the dogs. i doubt he would be as successful as he is if he did not know what he was doing. my opinion. 
i just think there is a tiny wee bit of jealousy going on here. some people dont like to admit there is someone more knowledgeable, who on this forum could mimic the success that cesar milan has had.


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

marthaMoo said:


> You can control a pack that big by using various methods, not all are good.
> 
> I dont know why people seem to think he's so great because he has a big pack of dogs on his program, and because his methods seem to work on some dogs. Just because he has a big group of dogs together doesnt mean jack. And his methods do not work on all dogs, infact it can have the oposite result.
> 
> ...


like i said..........................


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Lynne said:


> i said, he uses what the owners have used IF he considers them suitable. and tbh he does not bully the dogs. i doubt he would be as successful as he is if he did not know what he was doing. my opinion.
> i just think there is a tiny wee bit of jealousy going on here. some people dont like to admit there is someone more knowledgeable, who on this forum could mimic the success that cesar milan has had.


 Exactly how are you measuring this success? Is it because he is on the telly? 
I know many far better trainers who have never had the luxury of having their work edited by a tv companies so that they seem much better than they actualy are.
I have seen a few tv programs made involving dogs and I know how inaccurate they are. People on tv aren't necessarily the best in their field, they are usualy people with some talent AND tv style personalities.
No one is disputing that Milan is an effective dog trainer. Obviously his methods work for him BUT why would a dog lover condone the use of potentialy dangerous and painful equipment when there ARE alternative methods. How is it ok to demonstrate the use of these collars to the inexperienced dog handler? I don't understand how you claim to hate punitive training but think Milan is doing a great job.
I can teach my dogs to do what I want them to do without having to hurt them in anyway. Why can't he? And if he can, then why doesn't he do this ALL the time?


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Lynne said:


> i said, he uses what the owners have used IF he considers them suitable. and tbh he does not bully the dogs. i doubt he would be as successful as he is if he did not know what he was doing. my opinion.
> i just think there is a tiny wee bit of jealousy going on here. some people dont like to admit there is someone more knowledgeable, who on this forum could mimic the success that cesar milan has had.


 1. I know what you said, but if he uses what the owners use if he thinks they are suitable then that means he does think pinch and prong collars are suitable. 

and I doubt anybody here has anything to be jellous about, I would rather use positive methods with with slow results then cruel methods with fast ones.


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

am not that shallow as to measure success by anyone being on the 'telly'. his methods are far more gentler and dog orientated than most. i remember years ago barbara someone teaching a dog not to chase bikes by getting the cyclist to throw freezing cold water over it as it was chasing the bike down the street! 
i have read his books, gone on his website, emailed questions, liked the answers i got, although probably it will have been a pa that replied. his methods work within minutes of first being tried. no dogs are ever hurt, bullied or mistreated. in fact as he says, 'he rehabilatates dogs, he trains the owners'.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Lynne said:


> am not that shallow as to measure success by anyone being on the 'telly'. his methods are far more gentler and dog orientated than most. i remember years ago barbara someone teaching a dog not to chase bikes by getting the cyclist to throw freezing cold water over it as it was chasing the bike down the street!
> i have read his books, gone on his website, emailed questions, liked the answers i got, although probably it will have been a pa that replied. his methods work within minutes of first being tried. no dogs are ever hurt, bullied or mistreated. in fact as he says, 'he rehabilatates dogs, he trains the owners'.


But you still haven't answered the questions. 
Why would he condone the use of harsh equipment if he is such a supporter of positive training? 
And how can you support positive training and condone the use of pinch collars?
Even his own illusion collar comes with a bleeding health warning!
I watch casualty every week but I ain't a paramedic and watching Ceasar Milan does not make you a dog trainer.


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

Lynne said:


> am not that shallow as to measure success by anyone being on the 'telly'. his methods are far more gentler and dog orientated than most. i remember years ago barbara someone teaching a dog not to chase bikes by getting the cyclist to throw freezing cold water over it as it was chasing the bike down the street!
> i have read his books, gone on his website, emailed questions, liked the answers i got, although probably it will have been a pa that replied. his methods work within minutes of first being tried. no dogs are ever hurt, bullied or mistreated. in fact as he says, 'he rehabilatates dogs, he trains the owners'.


So you have seen him work his magic in the flesh?

I would of thought he hand picks the dogs he wants to use in his shows, making sure they will react in the way he wants them too.

He uses methods that include bullying, fear and dominance.

I have known dogs whos owners have tried his methods and the dogs have have become very withdrawn and distressed causing more problems.

I would never advise anyone to use his methods.

If anyone wants a very good trainer they will look up Sarah Fisher, she is a wonderful person who only uses positive training methods and gets very good results.


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> 1. I know what you said, but if he uses what the owners use if he thinks they are suitable then that means he does think pinch and prong collars are suitable.
> 
> and I doubt anybody here has anything to be jellous about, I would rather use positive methods with with slow results then cruel methods with fast ones.


i have never seen him use this coller. with what do i measure his succes.....i measure it with the amount of dogs he has helped, and the amount of owners he has helped to understand thier dogs. amazing that he is so successful and people will still argue they use better methods. so be it! i look forward to reading your books, scanning your websites and yes perhaps seeing some off you on tv. good luck. :lol2:


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Lynne said:


> i have never seen him use this coller. with what do i measure his succes.....i measure it with the amount of dogs he has helped, and the amount of owners he has helped to understand thier dogs. amazing that he is so successful and people will still argue they use better methods. so be it! i look forward to reading your books, scanning your websites and yes perhaps seeing some off you on tv. good luck. :lol2:


So in spite of your protestations you DO measure his success by the fact has been on tv, has a website and has been been motivated enough to write a book. :Na_Na_Na_Na:

I judge dog trainers I have seen first hand on their ability to train dogs using only positive methods and nothing else. Check out Joanna Hills web site. She is, in my opinion' the very best positive motivational trainer in the world - and she is from the UK. Don't think she has been on the telly though - she hasn't got the x factor.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Lynne said:


> i have never seen him use this coller. with what do i measure his succes.....i measure it with the amount of dogs he has helped, and the amount of owners he has helped to understand thier dogs. amazing that he is so successful and people will still argue they use better methods. so be it! i look forward to reading your books, scanning your websites and yes perhaps seeing some off you on tv. good luck. :lol2:


Oh, I get it now. So to be sucessful means people have to publish books, make a website, and be on tv? got it now. :roll:
An idiot can have books, be on tv and have a website. Dosent mean they are any good. Alot have been there, dont that and got the t-shirt and are still rubbish :roll:


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

Evie said:


> So in spite of your protestations you DO measure his success by the fact has been on tv, has a website and has been been motivated enough to write a book. :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> I judge dog trainers I have seen first hand on their ability to train dogs using only positive methods and nothing else. Check out Joanna Hills web site. She is, in my opinion' the very best positive motivational trainer in the world - and she is from the UK. Don't think she has been on the telly though - she hasn't got the x factor.


no i dont. i measure it by the fact he has done this since he was a child. he knows what he is talking about, i have used his methods and they work, and before anyone says i have bullied or been cruel to my dogs, then dont dare. his methods work for me therefore i will use them. my american bulldog has gone from being a nightmare to walk to now being a pleasure. she was a rescue, and was never taught to walk properly or with manners before. i dont need to read her website, i have what works for me and my dogs. and if he was ever cruel, then i wouldnt be interested in him or his methods.
and where the hell does he use cruel equipment!!!! if he does, you must be saying i do, and i dont. hand signals are all thats needed. and body language.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

choke chains... is that what we are on about here?


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Lynne said:


> no i dont. i measure it by the fact he has done this since he was a child. he knows what he is talking about, i have used his methods and they work, and before anyone says i have bullied or been cruel to my dogs, then dont dare. his methods work for me therefore i will use them. my american bulldog has gone from being a nightmare to walk to now being a pleasure. she was a rescue, and was never taught to walk properly or with manners before. i dont need to read her website, i have what works for me and my dogs. and if he was ever cruel, then i wouldnt be interested in him or his methods.


I'm sorry but you are contradicting youself at every turn. You say you don't like pinch collars but you don't think Milan is wrong to use them or to encourage their use simply by associating himself with them.

Would you think it ok for my boss to stock them in our shop because impressionable people have seen them on his tv program and want to 'stab their dog in the neck? Just because you haven't seen him use them doesn't mean he doesn't. I have never seen lots of things but that doesn't mean they don't exist.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

HABU said:


> choke chains... is that what we are on about here?


Pinch collars were the beef really but we digressed a little :lol2:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

He has used prong collars on quite a few dogs actually, and pinch collars on a good 3-4 dogs.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> He has used prong collars on quite a few dogs actually, and pinch collars on a good 3-4 dogs.


 See the pinch collars even burst the 'Ceasar is nice' bubble - nassssty things :lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

those collars have their place... in qualified hands and in proper situations. they're not meant to be used on a permanent basis. you have some really hard-headed dogs out there. if you don't like them no one says that you have to...


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

HABU said:


> those collars have their place... in qualified hands and in proper situations. they're not meant to be used on a permanent basis. you have some really hard-headed dogs out there. if you don't like them no one says that you have to...


My original post was wondering why there had been a sudden uprising in enquiries about them in the pet shop. In the hands of the inexperienced dod owner they are downright dangerous. 
I don't like them in any hands. I have probably had to deal with more dogs than most people, and have never felt the need to resort to them. Hard headed dogs or not. Look at the alternatives and try new approaches rather than looking for a quick fix.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Evie said:


> See the pinch collars even burst the 'Ceasar is nice' bubble - nassssty things :lol2:


:rotfl:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

nothing wrong with quick fixes. why mess around? just don't be cruel when using them....


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

HABU said:


> nothing wrong with quick fixes. why mess around? just don't be cruel when using them....


I have never seen a pinch or prong collar be a quick FIX. As soon as the dog is back in a proper/normal collar it is the same as it was before the pinch/prong collar. Therefore the collar would be solving nothing, and only prolonging/making the problem worse.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

HABU said:


> nothing wrong with quick fixes. why mess around? just don't be cruel when using them....


 Why use something that will hurt your dog when you don't have to? I have in the distant past used punitive/negative training methods and now choose the alternatives for many reasons but mainly because I like my dogs. I can train a dog with a pinch collar or without one, can you? 
If you can, then why use one and if you can't - you aren't as good as me so shut up. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Evie said:


> Why use something that will hurt your dog when you don't have to? I have in the distant past used punitive/negative training methods and now choose the alternatives for many reasons but mainly because I like my dogs. I can train a dog with a pinch collar or without one, can you?
> If you can, then why use one and if you can't - you aren't as good as me so shut up. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


:lol2::lol2:
I cant think of any instance that a prong or pinch collar can solve anything that positive training cant.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

On a personal level, the best dog trainer I have witnessed in the flesh is Evie! She has worked with dogs for many years. She has competed in heelwork to music, obedience & working trails successfully. Her dogs are extremely well trained - as I got one of her collies to do some heelwork to music moves with me on New Years Eve night, whilst tipsy! 

My favourite TV dog trainer is Victoria Stillwell, who does a programme called Its Me Or The Dog. She only uses positive training methods, & dislikes the use of choke chains, pinch collars, anti-bark collars & other negative based training equipment.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Lynne said:


> am not that shallow as to measure success by anyone being on the 'telly'. his methods are far more gentler and dog orientated than most. i remember years ago barbara someone teaching a dog not to chase bikes by getting the cyclist to throw freezing cold water over it as it was chasing the bike down the street!
> i have read his books, gone on his website, emailed questions, liked the answers i got, although probably it will have been a pa that replied. his methods work within minutes of first being tried. no dogs are ever hurt, bullied or mistreated. in fact as he says, 'he rehabilatates dogs, he trains the owners'.


Mmm, I saw a programme of his where a JRT chased its owner's motorbike. He used a pinch collar so when the JRT lunged forward to the motorbike, it felt the consequences! This poor dog yelped loudly as soon as he felt the pain of the collar. Then he struggled in vain to get away from Ceasar, which only resulted in yet more pain. My blood boiled hearing that dog yelping & screaming!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Lynne said:


> i have never seen him use this coller. with what do i measure his succes.....i measure it with the amount of dogs he has helped, and the amount of owners he has helped to understand thier dogs. amazing that he is so successful and people will still argue they use better methods. so be it! i look forward to reading your books, scanning your websites and yes perhaps seeing some off you on tv. good luck. :lol2:


You have never seen him use a pinch collar??? I have seen them used on about half the dogs featured in his TV programmes!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Lynne said:


> no i dont. i measure it by the fact he has done this since he was a child. he knows what he is talking about, i have used his methods and they work, and before anyone says i have bullied or been cruel to my dogs, then dont dare. his methods work for me therefore i will use them. my american bulldog has gone from being a nightmare to walk to now being a pleasure. she was a rescue, and was never taught to walk properly or with manners before. i dont need to read her website, i have what works for me and my dogs. and if he was ever cruel, then i wouldnt be interested in him or his methods.
> *and where the hell does he use cruel equipment!!!!* if he does, you must be saying i do, and i dont. hand signals are all thats needed. and body language.


Mmm, let me think! :hmm:

This whole thread is about pinch collars. Oh yes, thats what he uses! Mmmm................ :whistling2:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Pinch collars belong in the dark ages with medieval torture chambers. Horrible things...........................maybe the owners should be made to wear one to see what it feels like


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

I strongly disagree with the use of prong/pinch collars and feel that other than in the very, very tiny minority of cass, people use them to replace their inadequacies as trainers or because they want a 'quick fix'. 

I simply do not see why anyone would chose to use a training method for their dog that involves pain or discomfort when there is an alternative, which there always is, IMHO. 

I also can't stand Cesar Millan. He is a bully. Dogs have wet themselves with fear during is training sessions, which is annacceptable. He doesn't so much as rehabilitate them, as shut them down.They aren't behaving, they simply aren't reacting at all, the are too scared to do anything.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

YouTube - Cesar Millan and small dog Demon Chihuahua, dogs training


"See? he not scared of me" < yes he is !!!!! :whistling2:
And, is it just me or did he actually say "bited" ? :lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> YouTube - Cesar Millan and small dog Demon Chihuahua, dogs training
> 
> 
> "See? he not scared of me" < yes he is !!!!! :whistling2:
> And, is it just me or did he actually say "bited" ? :lol2:


I watched this episode. What should have happened with this savage and spoiled little dog?
What if this wasn't a chihuahua and was a rottie showing exactly that behaviour? Would you think differently then?
And yes he may well have said 'Bited' English isn't his first language after all. Cesar is Mexican and Spanish is his first language. Perhaps your Spanish is better?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Re having a human wear a pinch collar.
That might be a great idea and I will be the first to volunteer to have one put on me. Of course I will be wearing a polo neck sweater to imitate the dog's thick fur around a strong muscular neck but I would be more than happy to volunteer to have one placed on my neck and pulled.

Dogs yelp and scream even if they aren't being hurt Colin.
Personally, if a dog chases motorbikes and it took a short sharp shock to stop it and save it's life, then a short sharp shock is what it would get from me too. I'm afraid I simply don't subscribe to the idea that dogs are sweet gentle creatures who can listen to reason and be made to see the error of their ways by asking them to sit on the naughty step for 5 minutes.

I don't use pinch collars, have no need to. Nor do I use throttle chains on my dogs. No need for them either. Incidentally more physical damage is done by using throttle chains and alloing the dog to pull while wearing one, or by jerking them hard. Actual nerve and larynx damage. 
Nor to I ht my dogs. No need to. However, if there is a behaviour which needs instant retribution, I am quite happy to grab a dog by the scruff and shake it while growling and snarling, or hold it down while snarling. The dog may even yelp or scream when I do so but I am not hurting it. It simply doesn't like what I'm doing.
Cesar has to deal with dogs which have been pampered beyond all reason sometimes. Dogs which are a danger to themselves and to others. I have seen him bitten and bleeding by savage dogs, but he doesn't react at all other than to concentrate on what he is doing. Often, he is a dog's last chance before being pts. I admire the man. I would like to see Victoria Stillwell manage a huge pack of powerful dogs as Cesar does with his own pack. He has done more for dogs than Ms Stillwell has IMO because he has educated people into seeing dogs as dogs and not little babies to be dressed up and indulged. He stresses the importance of exersize and leadership and being consistant, firm and fair but always in charge.
Just because a dog resists forceful control and throws itself about and fights and scrams or yodels, it doesn't mean that it is being hurt, or is afraid any more than a spoiled human child who roars and shouts and screams in a temper tantrum when being made to do something it doesn't want to do, is being hurt.
I think the world is going a little silly with kids and animals where everyone is terrified of making an animal or child uncomfortable or unhappy for a moment and everyone falling over themselves to make life always happy, always pleasant with no consequences for bad behaviour. Well with dogs, especially dogs in a pack, there are rules and if those rules are broken, the transgressor is punished immediately and with pain and I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about the other dogs.
No good my trying to control a new dog with agression issues with sweet words and treats while ignoreing the bad behaviour of killing my chickens, attacking the other dogs or chasing the cats.
What happens is the sort of punishment it understands, pinning or shaking and me doing the full face lips back, nose wrinkled snarling. Usually never have to repeat it and the dog quickly learns that I am the boss. And none of my dogs is afraid of me either. The only reason more trainers like Cesar aren't on telly, and especially over here is because Joe public is too squeamish and namby pamby and there would be complaints. Cesar gets results. He understands dogs. I think he is bloody marvellous pinch collars or no pinch collars. He didn't invent the things, he doesn't tell everyone to use them. He simply uses whatever the owner uses. They are not illegal over there or in Europe or the rest of the world. They are decried by people who have never seen one or used one or understand how they work, simply because they don't like the 'idea' of them.:bash:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm not going to argue with you Fenny, as I think our friendship is more important than our difference of opinion here.

As we have said before, we can disagree on things but are still big enough to remain friends!

BTW, I think Victoria Stillwell is a Mrs! :Na_Na_Na_Na: :lol2:


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> Re having a human wear a pinch collar.
> That might be a great idea and I will be the first to volunteer to have one put on me. Of course I will be wearing a polo neck sweater to imitate the dog's thick fur around a strong muscular neck but I would be more than happy to volunteer to have one placed on my neck and pulled.
> 
> Dogs yelp and scream even if they aren't being hurt Colin.
> ...


I'd be interested to find out what sort of behaviour you deem to need the instant 'retribution' of scruffing/shaking? 

Yes, Cesar Millan does suggest that people treat their dogs like dogs, and he does advocate plenty of exercise, for which he must be applauded. However, his methods are based on the outdated 'pack theory' which implies that dogs view us as part of their pack, and as such we must act as 'pack leader' which CM seems to view as 'dominating' them. They are also cruel and intimidating for the dog, and IMO, this is exhibited by the amount of times he gets bitten. 

Some interesting articles here: 

Dog Whisperer, Dog Psychology and Cesar Millan

Modern Dog Training vs. Cesar Millan


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Re having a human wear a pinch collar.
> That might be a great idea and I will be the first to volunteer to have one put on me. Of course I will be wearing a polo neck sweater to imitate the dog's thick fur around a strong muscular neck but I would be more than happy to volunteer to have one placed on my neck and pulled.


You wouldn't mind if it was a big stupid moronic bully on the other end of the lead? Like the one that inspired this thread? If so I expect to see you in Casualty. 



> Dogs yelp and scream even if they aren't being hurt Colin.


Fear and pain is relative to the individual. Dogs run around like there's nothing wrong with them even after major surgery. People are not so stoic are they?



> Personally, if a dog chases motorbikes and it took a short sharp shock to stop it and save it's life, then a short sharp shock is what it would get from me too.


Even before looking at alternative techniques to correct the behaviour?



> I'm afraid I simply don't subscribe to the idea that dogs are sweet gentle creatures who can listen to reason and be made to see the error of their ways by asking them to sit on the naughty step for 5 minutes.


Naughty step? Who suggested that one?



> I don't use pinch collars, have no need to. Nor do I use throttle chains on my dogs. No need for them either. Incidentally more physical damage is done by using throttle chains and alloing the dog to pull while wearing one, or by jerking them hard. Actual nerve and larynx damage.


But you still don't condem them?



> Nor to I ht my dogs. No need to. However, if there is a behaviour which needs instant retribution, I am quite happy to grab a dog by the scruff and shake it while growling and snarling, or hold it down while snarling. The dog may even yelp or scream when I do so but I am not hurting it. It simply doesn't like what I'm doing.


That sort of confrontation might well result in a nasty bite and you have to remember that not everyone is so strong that they can manage to use physical force on their dog. Alternative methods are there to protect people as well as their dogs by allowing behaviour to be managed without the need for confrontations like this.



> Cesar has to deal with dogs which have been pampered beyond all reason sometimes. Dogs which are a danger to themselves and to others. I have seen him bitten and bleeding by savage dogs, but he doesn't react at all other than to concentrate on what he is doing.


Then he is silly - why get bitten? I reiterate my previous point.



> Often, he is a dog's last chance before being pts. I admire the man. I would like to see Victoria Stillwell manage a huge pack of powerful dogs as Cesar does with his own pack.


Your average pet owner has no need of this particular skill. It is just there to impress the easily impressed



> He has done more for dogs than Ms Stillwell has IMO because he has educated people into seeing dogs as dogs and not little babies to be dressed up and indulged. He stresses the importance of exersize and leadership and being consistant, firm and fair but always in charge.
> Just because a dog resists forceful control and throws itself about and fights and scrams or yodels, it doesn't mean that it is being hurt, or is afraid any more than a spoiled human child who roars and shouts and screams in a temper tantrum when being made to do something it doesn't want to do, is being hurt.


I don't think it is appropriate to use a human child as an analagy. Children have the ability to reason, dogs do not.




> I think the world is going a little silly with kids and animals where everyone is terrified of making an animal or child uncomfortable or unhappy for a moment and everyone falling over themselves to make life always happy, always pleasant with no consequences for bad behaviour. Well with dogs, especially dogs in a pack, there are rules and if those rules are broken, the transgressor is punished immediately and with pain and I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about the other dogs.


We keep dogs as pets for a variety of reasons, the main one being to love and enjoy them. I take much more pleasure in having fun raising and training dogs with reward based methods than I would if I used a dominating and punishment based method. I am not a dog and will not behave like one just because some believe that the dogs see us as part of their pack. It isn't an accurate way of looking at things. My cats behave like cats but still manage to live in harmony with the dogs.



> No good my trying to control a new dog with agression issues with sweet words and treats while ignoreing the bad behaviour of killing my chickens, attacking the other dogs or chasing the cats.


Ooops I'll tell all the people I know that have sorted this behaviour out without any kind of physical punishment that they did it wrong.



> What happens is the sort of punishment it understands, pinning or shaking and me doing the full face lips back, nose wrinkled snarling. Usually never have to repeat it and the dog quickly learns that I am the boss.


When I was 18 and had my first dog, she was kicked in the face by a horse. She had got out of the car through a faulty window and chased it. It didn't stop her from wanting to chase it again though.

And none of my dogs is afraid of me either. The only reason more trainers like Cesar aren't on telly, and especially over here is because Joe public is too squeamish and namby pamby and there would be complaints. Cesar gets results. He understands dogs. I think he is bloody marvellous pinch collars or no pinch collars. *He didn't invent the things, he doesn't tell everyone to use them. He simply uses whatever the owner uses*. They are not illegal over there or in Europe or the rest of the world. *They are decried by people who have never seen one or used one or understand how they work, simply because they don't like the 'idea' of them.*:bash:[/quote]

WHY??

Or sought by those who lack the skill to train their dogs i.e. the person who inspired this thread.

This thread was never intended to bash Milan but by his own doing he has associated himself with pinch collars and will not easily shed the stigma.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> I'm not going to argue with you Fenny, as I think our friendship is more important than our difference of opinion here.
> 
> As we have said before, we can disagree on things but are still big enough to remain friends!
> 
> BTW, I think Victoria Stillwell is a Mrs! :Na_Na_Na_Na: :lol2:


Funny enough I was only saying this evening to Cat, Ditta and Emma that I think people should be able to disagree without the other taking offence or taking it to mean that I hate them. Wouldn't life be dull if we all liked exactly the same things and agreed on everything. Smacks a little of 'brave new world'.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

midori said:


> I'd be interested to find out what sort of behaviour you deem to need the instant 'retribution' of scruffing/shaking?
> 
> Yes, Cesar Millan does suggest that people treat their dogs like dogs, and he does advocate plenty of exercise, for which he must be applauded. However, his methods are based on the outdated 'pack theory' which implies that dogs view us as part of their pack, and as such we must act as 'pack leader' which CM seems to view as 'dominating' them. They are also cruel and intimidating for the dog, and IMO, this is exhibited by the amount of times he gets bitten.
> 
> ...


 The pack heirachy theory is not outdated and it applies because even cute little pet dogs instinctively want to be part of a pack and why some people allow their pets to become pack leader and then bemoan the resulting mayhem. I cannot recall ever hearing Cesar say he was 'dominating' a dog.
Dogs do not view us as part of their pack unless they have been allowed to display high status behaviour and get away with it.
I am not going to bother to try to explain pack heirachy to you as you obviously know little about it, don't understand it and indeed, don't even agree with it. I won't waste my breath.
You can post as many links by people who don't like the man, and I can post loads of links from people who do like the man. What will that prove?
Many many pet owning people have been bitten by their own dearly loved and spoiled dogs. What does this show? In your opinion it seems to show that they are cruel and intimidating towards their dogs. You just said so.

How many of Cesar Milan's series have you watched? How many other trainers do you know of who can run a large pack of dogs as Cesar runs? Ever see any of his pack cower and run away when he walks into the compound? By your reckoning, all of them should be intimidated because of his cruel treatment. Want to come and see how my pack of 18 dogs reacts towards me? Not any of them afraid of me, or intimidated. All calm, happy and confident, and all perfectly happy to greet anyone I choose can come into my house whether they be human or animal. They are secure in the knowledge that I, as pack leader, will always provide for them and protect them. But there, you don't understand it all and I can't see why I should be the one to teach you about pack heirachy cos I'd be wasting my breath. How large is the pack that you run and how do you keep order? Are you able to tip out a sack of fresh raw bones and know that there will not be fights? Do you know that you can open a gate and call one or more individual dogs in and only those named dogs will come? Can you take the dogs out and know that they'll return to you when you call them? That none would dream of barging past you or pulling on the lead?


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> The pack heirachy theory is not outdated and it applies because even cute little pet dogs instinctively want to be part of a pack and why some people allow their pets to become pack leader and then bemoan the resulting mayhem. I cannot recall ever hearing Cesar say he was 'dominating' a dog.
> Dogs do not view us as part of their pack unless they have been allowed to display high status behaviour and get away with it.
> I am not going to bother to try to explain pack heirachy to you as you obviously know little about it, don't understand it and indeed, don't even agree with it. I won't waste my breath.
> You can post as many links by people who don't like the man, and I can post loads of links from people who do like the man. What will that prove?
> ...


Well, you didn't answer the question,although obviously that is your perogative. 

I don't really see how many dogs someone owns dictates their experience or lack of it, anyone can buy a dog, afterall. However, as you asked, I don't really see the need to 'keep order' with my dogs, and I do like them to behave like dogs, not switched of robots, but as you asked, I own three and yes,they do as I ask, when I ask, which includes walking to heel on and off lead, coming back instantly when called, (in fact, I'd bet a months wages on it!) behaving around livestock/pheasants/deer and waiting to let me go first if I ask them 

Yet, I do all the things which people would say makes my dogs thnk they have higher status than me, let them 'demand' attenion, feed them before me, let them jump up (when given permission of course) let them sleep on my bed, sit on my sofa, go through doors first unless I ask them no to (it is far easier with a pushchair!) and I would never feel the need to scruff them or pin them down, or shake them. So why do they do as I ask? Simple, I hold all the resources (I do believe we need to be a leader of sorts, but I don't believe that is achieved through any sort of physical force) and I know how to motivate them. 

You're probably right. You probably do know a lot more about 'pack theoy' than me. I have never looked into it _that_ closely. I got so far and simply decided there must be a better way, and I don't believe hat our ogs jump up,rush throug doors, growl etc etc becausethey are trying to be dominant or dominate us humans.


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## Brat (Oct 7, 2007)

I wouldn't use anything on any animal if it could do this..


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Brat said:


> I wouldn't use anything on any animal if it could do this..


Bloody Hell Brat, thats awful!


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Funny enough I was only saying this evening to Cat, Ditta and Emma that I think people should be able to disagree without the other taking offence or taking it to mean that I hate them. Wouldn't life be dull if we all liked exactly the same things and agreed on everything. Smacks a little of 'brave new world'.


 Quite right! I was thinking today that our differences of opinion are perhaps dictated by environmental factors as much as anything. I work in a shop in a depressed area of the city and consequently come across a particular type of owner. More often than not the dogs are not over indulged or pampered and the owners tend towards a more aggressive approach which needs toning down. If you encounter more indulged dogs I guess it is going to influence your general attitude and approach. I am always afraid of giving direct advice without seeing the whole picture, and would always tend towards giving advice that can't be damaging. Any kind of punitive action can make the situation worse. If positive training is done wrong, it will only be ineffective and will easily be put right with professional guidance.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

midori said:


> Well, you didn't answer the question,although obviously that is your perogative.
> 
> I don't really see how many dogs someone owns dictates their experience or lack of it, anyone can buy a dog, afterall. However, as you asked, I don't really see the need to 'keep order' with my dogs, and I do like them to behave like dogs, not switched of robots, but as you asked, I own three and yes,they do as I ask, when I ask, which includes walking to heel on and off lead, coming back instantly when called, (in fact, I'd bet a months wages on it!) behaving around livestock/pheasants/deer and waiting to let me go first if I ask them
> 
> ...



I didn't answer the question because pack heirachy cannot be explained away in a single post. Learning dog body language etc is a long draw out thing. It's taken me years. The fact that you looked into it a bit and decided it wasn't for you, demonstrates that you really have no idea how it works at all but are nevertheless happy to spout off about how dreadful it all is and how violent you have to be to 'dominate' and 'intimidate' your dogs. Which is actually totally the opposite to how it all works.
If you don't understand it, perhaps you are not best placed to spout off and be judgemental about those of us who use the lifestyle (it isn't a method of 'training'). I can assure you that my dogs are free to be like dogs, dig holes, play and the like. The pack theory has nothing to do with rigid training methods, abuse, physical control or dogs behaving like robots.
Please, before you decry something, at least learn about it so that you don't look follish because you say it is about one thing, when it is actually nothing about what you think. And no, I'm still not going to spoon feed you the info. If you really wanted to find out about how it all works, you would do some research yourself. But since you are more than happy to maintain the status quo with your 3 dogs and allow them to rush in front of you while your attention is on trying to get a buggy out of your door, and risk them rushing out and having an accident or hurting themselves or whatever else, I'll prefer my dogs to wait behind me while I get myself organised and step out, before those dogs which I call, come out behind me in a mannerly fashion, showing respect and not behaving like lunatics, while I put leads on to take them to the car. Once down the riverbank, they come out of the back of the car when I tell them they may and then they know they are allowed to run like the wind, leap about, play and behaving like crazy dogs because I checked first to make sure it is safe for them to do.
You are happy with your dogs even though they show you no respect, that's absolutely fine. My dogs and I are happy together with them behaving with good manners, affection and respect towards me. I never allowed my son to be disrespectful, disobedient and barge past me, why should I allow dogs to do so?
Oh, and my son is still respectful and affectionate now he is 35 years old, not only to me, but to every other living being human and none human because he was taught the value of control and self control which goes hand in hand with res[ect and self respect.
No physical violence required normalls, but always there as the 'ultimate threat'. and there has always to be an ultimate punishment otherwise, how do you lay down boundaries? Or do you not plan on those for your child either?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Cesar is a behaviorist not a trainer and he uses the tools that the dogs owners give to him not his own. He controls a whole pack of dogs and can introduce a new one succesfully. I dont agree with all he does but he def knows his stuff with a pack. Victoria stillwell only ever has 1/2 dogs on her program and although she is good Im not sure her methods would work in a pack situation. I too growl, snarl and shake and my pack have great respect for me. They are part of my family and I love em to bits but they know their place, even the bed dogs


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Evie said:


> Quite right! I was thinking today that our differences of opinion are perhaps dictated by environmental factors as much as anything. I work in a shop in a depressed area of the city and consequently come across a particular type of owner. More often than not the dogs are not over indulged or pampered and the owners tend towards a more aggressive approach which needs toning down. If you encounter more indulged dogs I guess it is going to influence your general attitude and approach. I am always afraid of giving direct advice without seeing the whole picture, and would always tend towards giving advice that can't be damaging. Any kind of punitive action can make the situation worse. If positive training is done wrong, it will only be ineffective and will easily be put right with professional guidance.


 Doing rescue and running an animal advice line I see and meet many kinds of dog owners. Tgose who are indulgent with vile spoiled and disrespectful dogs are shown my own, calm, respectful and polite dogs to show them that the heirachy theory is not about barked or shouted commands and violence. While very abrupt owners are shown that actually a calm manner and much praise and affection works miles better than simply being harsh all the time. That way the dog strives to gain the softer voice and praise and approval.
I think the biggest problem is that the UK has gone all namby pamby in recent years. While I see the good points with Ms Stillwell and trainers like Mick Martin (who makes me laugh cos he's funny and who is a straight talking no crappo type of guy which I admire), people like Cesar Milan, who may occasionally have a massive problem dog which other trainers would advocate the death of the dog because it is dangerously savage , the UK population of tender hearts are not happy to watch firm methods of training. It makes them uncomfortable and they want to cry 'cruelty'.
I watched a dog borstal episode with an american bulldog who was very dominant and aggressive and the trainers actually told the owners to consider carefully the dog's future as it was dangerous and savage. The dog was later PTS. Cesar Milan would never have advocated it and would have rehabilitated the dog within his own huge pack of former 'hard case offenders' which include pitbulls (one of his fave breeds), rotties, Am bulldogs and the like. Decry the man all you like but watch every episode before you do, so at least you do so from a point of understanding what he's about.
Yes, punative action can make things worse and no novice should attempt anything they are not confident about. In fact every episode of dog whisperer says as much. But if you have been around a lot of dogs for several decades (like myself) and you understand pack theory, then the chances are that you will never ever have to get physical in the first place.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Brat tell us more about that photo please. I assume a pinch/pronged collar caused those injuries?


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## Brat (Oct 7, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> Brat tell us more about that photo please. I assume a pinch/pronged collar caused those injuries?


Yeah, I found it on the International Positive Dog Training Association website: www.ipdta.org
About halfway down the page.


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## Shelley66 (Feb 19, 2007)

I haven't read the whole thread, so it has probably been said by now, but aren't these kind of collars only sold in the US? Best place for them too, you can train (most) dogs easily with a normal collar. And if people were to use head collars such as halti's correctly ie you lift the dogs head up not try and pull it back, then they would soon have a dog that didn't pull!

I would love to spend a few days in the company of Cesar Milan, or Mic Martin from Dog Borstal.... Not that my "pack" need them, they know who is the boss around here. But I love the guys!!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Shelley66 said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, so it has probably been said by now, but aren't these kind of collars only sold in the US? Best place for them too, you can train (most) dogs easily with a normal collar. And if people were to use head collars such as halti's correctly ie you lift the dogs head up not try and pull it back, then they would soon have a dog that didn't pull!
> 
> I would love to spend a few days in the company of Cesar Milan, or Mic Martin from Dog Borstal.... Not that my "pack" need them, they know who is the boss around here. But I love the guys!!


 
Not Mick Martin, he is so full of his own importance and hates being given a small dog as its too poncy for him. Grrrrrr I hate him:lol2:


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Doing rescue and running an animal advice line I see and meet many kinds of dog owners. Tgose who are indulgent with vile spoiled and disrespectful dogs are shown my own, calm, respectful and polite dogs to show them that the heirachy theory is not about barked or shouted commands and violence. While very abrupt owners are shown that actually a calm manner and much praise and affection works miles better than simply being harsh all the time. That way the dog strives to gain the softer voice and praise and approval.
> I think the biggest problem is that the UK has gone all namby pamby in recent years. While I see the good points with Ms Stillwell and trainers like Mick Martin (who makes me laugh cos he's funny and who is a straight talking no crappo type of guy which I admire), people like Cesar Milan, who may occasionally have a massive problem dog which other trainers would advocate the death of the dog because it is dangerously savage , the UK population of tender hearts are not happy to watch firm methods of training. It makes them uncomfortable and they want to cry 'cruelty'.
> I watched a dog borstal episode with an american bulldog who was very dominant and aggressive and the trainers actually told the owners to consider carefully the dog's future as it was dangerous and savage. The dog was later PTS. Cesar Milan would never have advocated it and would have rehabilitated the dog within his own huge pack of former 'hard case offenders' which include pitbulls (one of his fave breeds), rotties, Am bulldogs and the like. Decry the man all you like but watch every episode before you do, so at least you do so from a point of understanding what he's about.
> *Yes, punative action can make things worse and no novice should attempt anything they are not confident about. In fact every episode of dog whisperer says as much. But if you have been around a lot of dogs for several decades (like myself) and you understand pack theory, then the chances are that you will never ever have to get physical in the first* place.


 
I am not talking about your abilities as an owner, I think that is unquestionable. My point is that not everyone watching it has the benefit of experience, not everyone will fully understand the extensive editing. People cherry pick the bits that make it seem easy and ignore the ground work. My objection is that he is, albeit indirectly, promoting dangerous equipment to the novice dog owner.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Cesar is a behaviorist not a trainer and he uses the tools that the dogs owners give to him not his own. He controls a whole pack of dogs and can introduce a new one succesfully. I dont agree with all he does but he def knows his stuff with a pack. Victoria stillwell only ever has 1/2 dogs on her program and although she is good Im not sure her methods would work in a pack situation. I too growl, snarl and shake and my pack have great respect for me. They are part of my family and I love em to bits but they know their place, even the bed dogs


 Phew I was beginning to doubt my reason for a moment there, and wonder why every single person on the forum thought Cesar (and me) a cruel, unloving, unfeeling owner who abused their dogs daily and who's dogs screamed, cowered and were terrified of them, when the opposite is true.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Shelley66 said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, so it has probably been said by now, but aren't these kind of collars only sold in the US? Best place for them too, you can train (most) dogs easily with a normal collar. And if people were to use head collars such as halti's correctly ie you lift the dogs head up not try and pull it back, then they would soon have a dog that didn't pull!
> 
> I would love to spend a few days in the company of Cesar Milan, or Mic Martin from Dog Borstal.... Not that my "pack" need them, they know who is the boss around here. But I love the guys!!


 Pinch collarsa are used all over the world. The UK is about the only place I know where they are deemed cruel by people who have never seen one, never used one and don't understand how they work.
Incidentally, some dogs can still pull with the headcollar. My ultra dominant strong necked giant schnauzer (now deceased) could pull me over if she wanted to with her headcollar on.
I still use one on foster dogs occasionally but my 'weapon' of choice with a puller is now the Lupi harness.
Mick Martin is my pin up guy.:blush:
I crack up when he calls some soppy slushy dog owner "bloody numbnuts" under his breath, and look at them slobbering and kissing their dogs, with utter disdain and disgust hehe.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Not Mick Martin, he is so full of his own importance and hates being given a small dog as its too poncy for him. Grrrrrr I hate him:lol2:


 Love his opinion of shar-pei hehehe. I like seeing him get a small poofie dog, then, when it shows him it is actually game to learn anything, and leap over those jumps, he turns from disdain, to grudging admiration for the dog.
If only more people whould realise that small doesn't mean pampered lap dog unable to learn or become a fun dog.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

dogs look to humans for leadership. dogs like firm, fair pack leaders. they suck at running the pack... many bad behaviors are from dogs getting stuck with the leadership role. choke chains and such are just options. strict disipline are what dogs thrive on. but yes, these tools need to stay out of the hands of fools... hey, tools and fools! i'm a poet and didn't know it!...haha!

there are millions of ways to be cruel to a dog... the most common torture for dogs is the one folks condone... letting someone have a dog that hasn't a clue about how a dog's mind works... yet society wants people to have dogs... but you don't have to know what you are getting involved in keeping one well balanced... just pay the fee and adopt one... and wing it!

yes these people don't need any choke chains anywhere near them.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Bloody Hell Brat, thats awful!


 nasty looking wound. Odd though that there is no double row of puncture wounds from the double row of blunt 'prongs'.
I looked at the website where the pic came from and found it full of half truths, misconceptions, lies and then of course, advocating people should use only the trainers using the methods she uses or to buy her book. Just as with anything else on the 'net, don't take everything you see as gospel. I fail to understand how a blunt 'prong' which actually closes against the next lot of prongs in order to make it pinch, like you putting finger and thumb together to pinch someone, could cause deep puncture wounds unless someone had put their hands around the outside of the collar and used some strength to force the prongs (which are still blunt) into the dogs flesh. Again, I see sensationalism and someone making an assumption despite them not really understanding how pinch collars work, but wanting to belive that they are terribly cruel and capable of causing the injuries shown.
I used to have a large working type spaniel cross in Germany when I lived there. The hunter who owned him was going to shoot the dog who seemed to have a type of rage syndrome and who at the drop of a hat, for no reason, would launch himself into attacking someone, including myself if I tried to block him. He wore a pinch collar. I used to trim this dog who had a typical spaniel silky soft coat and fleshy neck. Never once did Toby have any kind of injuries and certainly nothing like those in the photograph. However, the collar enabled me to have some kind of control over him on the odd ocassions he 'flipped'. Do you imagine that every single person in the whole world who uses a pinch collar on their dog, has to take them to the vet after every walk, to get them stitched up? If not why not when according to the website and photograph, this is what a pinch collar will do to your dog's neck?
Get rid of the emotion and think about this rationally for goodness sake.


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Brat said:


> I wouldn't use anything on any animal if it could do this..



That looks horrific..but it looks more like an embedded collar injury. You know those horrid metal collars. Collar to tight, cuts into flesh, flesh starts to grow around the collar etc. Might have been caused by one of the pinch collars in question but i'd probably lean more towards an embedded as opposed to that. Dunno what anyone else thinks?


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Ceasar Milan









:lol2::lol2:


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

i am watching his show just now, and he is working with a dog (a pitbull type) who is effectively on death row because of people aggression. he is using no special collers etc. the dog is muzzled at this time because there are other people around, but the dog has managed to get his arm through the muzzle. im still waiting to see him use 'cruelty' to help this dog. i will wait a while because i never have seen him be cruel.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Marinam2 said:


> ????????????????? whats the problem with a dog in reverse?
> Marina


what is the problem so you think it is allright for a dog to walk backwards in front of you? I'm sorry I don't think this is good for the dog or the walker 



LoveForLizards said:


> Exactly my point with people. IMO slip leads, choke chains, gentle leaders, prong collars, pinch collars, canny collars, prods, reins and many more "training aids" should not be allowed to be put on shop shelves, and only sold by dog trainers or vets.


Slip leads what the hell is the wrong with a slip lead I use them every day on my labs alwasy have from puppy to adult in the field at home, I have no idea why you think these should not be sold?



Shell195 said:


> Cesar is a behaviorist not a trainer and he uses the tools that the dogs owners give to him not his own. He controls a whole pack of dogs and can introduce a new one succesfully. I dont agree with all he does but he def knows his stuff with a pack. Victoria stillwell only ever has 1/2 dogs on her program and although she is good Im not sure her methods would work in a pack situation. I too growl, snarl and shake and my pack have great respect for me. They are part of my family and I love em to bits but they know their place, even the bed dogs


Totally agree couldn't have put it better 



fenwoman said:


> Doing rescue and running an animal advice line I see and meet many kinds of dog owners. Tgose who are indulgent with vile spoiled and disrespectful dogs are shown my own, calm, respectful and polite dogs to show them that the heirachy theory is not about barked or shouted commands and violence. While very abrupt owners are shown that actually a calm manner and much praise and affection works miles better than simply being harsh all the time. That way the dog strives to gain the softer voice and praise and approval.
> I think the biggest problem is that the UK has gone all namby pamby in recent years. While I see the good points with Ms Stillwell and trainers like Mick Martin (who makes me laugh cos he's funny and who is a straight talking no crappo type of guy which I admire), people like Cesar Milan, who may occasionally have a massive problem dog which other trainers would advocate the death of the dog because it is dangerously savage , the UK population of tender hearts are not happy to watch firm methods of training. It makes them uncomfortable and they want to cry 'cruelty'.
> I watched a dog borstal episode with an american bulldog who was very dominant and aggressive and the trainers actually told the owners to consider carefully the dog's future as it was dangerous and savage. The dog was later PTS. Cesar Milan would never have advocated it and would have rehabilitated the dog within his own huge pack of former 'hard case offenders' which include pitbulls (one of his fave breeds), rotties, Am bulldogs and the like. Decry the man all you like but watch every episode before you do, so at least you do so from a point of understanding what he's about.
> Yes, punative action can make things worse and no novice should attempt anything they are not confident about. In fact every episode of dog whisperer says as much. But if you have been around a lot of dogs for several decades (like myself) and you understand pack theory, then the chances are that you will never ever have to get physical in the first place.


we don't always agree on things but :notworthy::notworthyeople are quick to jump on him without given him a chance.


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## Skyespirit86 (Feb 23, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> Exactly my point with people. IMO slip leads, choke chains, gentle leaders, prong collars, pinch collars, canny collars, prods, reins and many more "training aids" should not be allowed to be put on shop shelves, and only sold by dog trainers or vets.


 
at least know the products you are talking about- canny collars are like haltis or 'gentle leaders' they are classed as gentle, positive items to use. Slip collars are hardely cruel either. They are used in vets as they are easy to loop over a dog's head without touching it (as it might have a behavioural issue with you) and are not seen by the majority of people as anything to worry about. It is only choke/check chains that are criticised which you may be confusing them with or the rediculous activist paranoia surrounding the use of them afetr watching the dog whisperer.


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

i use halti's and canny collars , i also use a slip lead on my lurcher all these i am happy to use, i am also going to get a lupi thing to try on my collie/spanial cross who pulls like mad no matter what i use.......if there is a trainer on here that can solve her pulling then feel free to come and do it :lol2:


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## Ruthy (Dec 10, 2007)

I wouldnt use prong or pinch collars on my dogs, the most they have on in a halti each and only when we are on road walks.

I do not agree that Caeser Milan is cruel. I am an AVID fan of his, and havent found anything about his techniques cruel. I think he's caring and compassionate and yet firm and respects the dogs needs and what needs to be done in the dogs best interest. He's never once hurt a dog, and i've seen many tear and chunk out of him, and only once have i seen him use a prong collar, and it was the owner who used it on the dog, and Caeser uses what the owner already does.

So yeah, thats my peace said lol, Caeser rules!

Ruth


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## Skyespirit86 (Feb 23, 2008)

selina20 said:


> I refuse to watch the Dog Whisperer as i think its completely cruel. These collars are evil and at the end of the day if an owner thinks they need 1 its probably because it needs to be used on them in person not their poor pets. What ever happened to chilly sunday mornings at dog training schools?


And I have to also add that cesar milan on the dog whisperer does not go out and buy prong collars especially for the dogs he works with. He only allows a dog that is already wearing one to continue wearing one if he deems it a feasible method, or if the owner is keen to do it and again, he deems it safe and feasible. In America they are obviously less against them as a whole and are commonplace. Cesar would rectify any negative intention for using such an item. He would not allow someone to use one so they could 'stab the dog in the neck,' when it pulls. Please be logical. I believe in animal welfare but I would rather read a genuine, logical, non-biased evaluaion of a training aid such as this, rather than opinions which are based on spur-of-the-moment assumptions about what they are, based on other people's hype. They don't have pointed ends as far as I am aware. They are blunt metal and usually, from what I have seen have rubber caps over the ends of the prongs. They don't puncture the skin, and anyone using one needs to be trained themselves on how to use it. Cesar never says its something you use to punish the dog, or to hurt it, or to stick on a pulling dog to 'fix' it by literally choking it. I don't know 100% to be honest but I know that Cesar is not an idiot and I very much respect his talent, which I believe is genuine, not just an illusion for tv. I resent him being associated with bad practices because I don'tbelieve you really understand him or his programme.


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## Skyespirit86 (Feb 23, 2008)

saxon said:


> I'm pretty sure they are illegal to use in the UK!!!!
> 
> Cesar Milan does not advise people to use the prong collars though he uses the equipment that the owner already uses. He usually advises the use of his new 'double collars' which I'd love to try with my rottie who, no matter what training you give, pulls like a train when he sees a cat!!!!
> They cost a fortune though in hte US and Canada and then you have to get them sent over which the manufacturer will not do. I have a friend over there who would get one for me but I'm not paying stupid money for a collar I use a halti instead.


 
Hooray, I agree.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

mask-of-sanity said:


> i use halti's and canny collars , i also use a slip lead on my lurcher all these i am happy to use, i am also going to get a lupi thing to try on my collie/spanial cross who pulls like mad no matter what i use.......if there is a trainer on here that can solve her pulling then feel free to come and do it :lol2:


 The Lupi should help as will heirachy training. Dog's pull in part because they are not showing you respect. It simply isn't polite to tug your boss about is it? It's as bad mannered as simply shoving someone out of the way to get by.
My lot don't pull because they respect me. Buit I have found Lupi's to be very useful indeed when used in conjunction with some role changes in the house in order to make the dog understand that when out walking, you go at the pace and in the direction that you decide to go in and not where and how fast she dictates.

I should think that that cross is pretty active and needing some serious off lead running to get rid of energy. It might be worth taking her out in the car to a safe place, and making her run until she is knackered, and then try lead training, using plenty of praise of course but immediately using the growly disapproving tone if the lead tightens even a tiny bit.

If my lot forget themselves, (especially 65kg Ursa) I pinched a tone and phrase of the telly.
"How very dare you", said in the same shocked tone. It has the immediate effect of them coming back towards me looking a bit sheepish almost as though they are saying "oops, sorry mum".


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## Skyespirit86 (Feb 23, 2008)

mask-of-sanity said:


> i am afraid its not always the case i have a springer cross who will try to get cats but i own a cat who was here when i got the springer.....she also has to go on a halti despite going to training classes she still pulls like mad


Agree. You can't generalise from your dog to another's. We all think we know the answer to another's problem, but often we are being patronsing. When I say my dog goes nuts when she sees a cat for example, I mean it. I mean I have read books, and spent hours attempting various methods. Dirtying my pockets with treats to use, sometimes half a pound of cheese at a time. I have got her to sit, must be 10,000 times.She knows lie down, wait etc. I tried to do the 'look at me' thing. Yeah right. I have tried going the other way doing a clever u-turn with a treat, shaker bottles, crossing the street, attempting to 'desensitise' her by meeting cats, and attempting to control herexcitment levels. She wears a halti, I have her waking well by my side now....and she will still go mad after a cat. Trust me. She does. I am not a wimp. I have tried chastising her (not by beating!), I have gone from army general to zen-like calm and centred so as not to pass on my negative energy or incite her. Which is right? Who knows....Maybe dogs are just like that?????

Personally I have a lurcher. A friend of ours felt very confident about her dog skills, owning two submissive friendly collies who had no interest in running away or causing trouble. Thre was always the feeling she was looking down her nose at me a tad when we were out together. Then she got a lurcher. Guess what. Same problem.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Skyespirit86 said:


> Agree. You can't generalise from your dog to another's. We all think we know the answer to another's problem, but often we are being patronsing. When I say my dog goes nuts when she sees a cat for example, I mean it. I mean I have read books, and spent hours attempting various methods. Dirtying my pockets with treats to use, sometimes half a pound of cheese at a time. I have got her to sit, must be 10,000 times.She knows lie down, wait etc. I tried to do the 'look at me' thing. Yeah right. I have tried going the other way doing a clever u-turn with a treat, shaker bottles, crossing the street, attempting to 'desensitise' her by meeting cats, and attempting to control herexcitment levels. She wears a halti, I have her waking well by my side now....and she will still go mad after a cat. Trust me. She does. I am not a wimp. I have tried chastising her (not by beating!), I have gone from army general to zen-like calm and centred so as not to pass on my negative energy or incite her. Which is right? Who knows....Maybe dogs are just like that?????
> 
> Personally I have a lurcher. A friend of ours felt very confident about her dog skills, owning two submissive friendly collies who had no interest in running away or causing trouble. Thre was always the feeling she was looking down her nose at me a tad when we were out together. Then she got a lurcher. Guess what. Same problem.


 I wouldn't say that it is a lurcher specific problems since I've had lurchers all of my life and not one of mine has run off and not come back. In fact I have a very hard job trying to get my present one, to join the other dogs in a gallop across the riverbank. He trots with his head 3 inches behind my knee all the time.


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> The Lupi should help as will heirachy training. Dog's pull in part because they are not showing you respect. It simply isn't polite to tug your boss about is it? It's as bad mannered as simply shoving someone out of the way to get by.
> My lot don't pull because they respect me. Buit I have found Lupi's to be very useful indeed when used in conjunction with some role changes in the house in order to make the dog understand that when out walking, you go at the pace and in the direction that you decide to go in and not where and how fast she dictates.
> 
> I should think that that cross is pretty active and needing some serious off lead running to get rid of energy. It might be worth taking her out in the car to a safe place, and making her run until she is knackered, and then try lead training, using plenty of praise of course but immediately using the growly disapproving tone if the lead tightens even a tiny bit.
> ...


she goes up a large field and runs until she is tired and after that she walks well on the lead but thats the only time, when we are street walking she is more focused on whats around be it cats ,birds,squrils than she is on me,at home she behaves and does as she is asked and i dont have to ask her twice, my other 2 dogs are good on the lead its just her lol


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Originally Posted by *mask-of-sanity*  
_i am afraid its not always the case i have a springer cross who will try to get cats but i own a cat who was here when i got the springer.....she also has to go on a halti despite going to training classes she still pulls like mad_

_*You got a pic of your Spaniel x collie(Sprolly) We have one too called Loony Lucy for obv reasons. She reminds me of Dory out of the film Finding Nemo. Never shuts up yapping when we take her out so she carries a ball then she cant. Shes a lovely bitch and loves everyone and everything but cant decide if she should be herding or retrieving. She nevers pulls on a lead though*_


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Does anyone know why Caesar Milan uses what equipment the owner uses?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Probably because hes a behaviourist and not a trainer


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

He should tell the owner about the dangers of such collars & educate them on better alternatives!


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

Shell195 said:


> Originally Posted by *mask-of-sanity*
> _i am afraid its not always the case i have a springer cross who will try to get cats but i own a cat who was here when i got the springer.....she also has to go on a halti despite going to training classes she still pulls like mad_
> 
> _*You got a pic of your Spaniel x collie(Sprolly) We have one too called Loony Lucy for obv reasons. She reminds me of Dory out of the film Finding Nemo. Never shuts up yapping when we take her out so she carries a ball then she cant. Shes a lovely bitch and loves everyone and everything but cant decide if she should be herding or retrieving. She nevers pulls on a lead though*_


yep i do will upload it later,she is very much a one person dog, doesnt bark much unless she thinks i need protecting , she doesnt play like my others do and prefers my company rather than the other dogs, she is a funny thing really,


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> He should tell the owner about the dangers of such collars & educate them on better alternatives!


the programme i just watched was him working with 2 dogs on death row. the first one he went to lived with the owners in a house, and went for every person that dared to go near either the owners or the two other dogs. when he arrived the dog was wearing a pronged coller which was quickly REMOVED and a normal leather coller put on. the pronged was not seen again. he does not endorse these collers, and he does not use them. i dont know where you all get the idea he does. he endorses and uses the illusion collar which is totally differant.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Lynne said:


> the programme i just watched was him working with 2 dogs on death row. the first one he went to lived with the owners in a house, and went for every person that dared to go near either the owners or the two other dogs. when he arrived the dog was wearing a pronged coller which was quickly REMOVED and a normal leather coller put on. the pronged was not seen again. he does not endorse these collers, and *he does not use them. i dont know where you all get the idea he does.* he endorses and uses the illusion collar which is totally differant.


Cos I have seen him working with dogs wearing these collars on his programmes!


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> Cos I have seen him working with dogs wearing these collars on his programmes!


well i tend to watch all his progs if i know they are on. mainly to see the dogs and the problems. i HAVE seen him use the illusion collar, NEVER a pronged. i think you are getting muddled between the two.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Lynne said:


> well i tend to watch all his progs if i know they are on. mainly to see the dogs and the problems. i HAVE seen him use the illusion collar, NEVER a pronged. i think you are getting muddled between the two.


Nope, I know what a pinch collar looks like! I have seen him working with dogs wearing pinch collars a few times!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Ive seen lots of pinch collars on his program too


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Lynne said:


> the programme i just watched was him working with 2 dogs on death row. the first one he went to lived with the owners in a house, and went for every person that dared to go near either the owners or the two other dogs. when he arrived the dog was wearing a pronged coller which was quickly REMOVED and a normal leather coller put on. the pronged was not seen again. he does not endorse these collers, and he does not use them. i dont know where you all get the idea he does. he endorses and uses the illusion collar which is totally differant.


 I think the problem is that someone hears something about the man and his methods and decides they don't like the 'idea' of what he does. They may even watch one of the episodes, probably even look for an episode where a dog make be yelping and then it is fixed in their mind. _"Cesar Milan is in league with the devil, tortures dogs with cruel pointed pinch collars which do't 'pinch' but stab dogs deep into their necks causing wounds and bleeding. The dogs are all terrified of him and he is mean nasty and cruel"._

Nothing anyone can say will change their perception of him or his methods because it makes them feel happier to believe that he is a nasty cruel man and that every dog can be changed just as quickly by ignoring the fact that is has put people in hospital (the bad) and rewarding it when it wags it's tail at you (the good).
Trouble is, when the bad is as bad as it can be, there is often no time to take it slowly and be oh so very sweet, kind and gentle and hope it works before the dog kills someone.
The man gets results based on his deep affinity with dogs and his understanding of how dogs think. I admire him greatly, having watched just about every single episode he ever made. I think that in this crazy world where people treat their dogs like children, rarely walk them, give them no discipline or boundaries and basically screw them up mentally, he is the voice of reason. As he himself says, "first you need discipline, exersize and boundaries, then you give affection" or words to that effect.
Those who denigrate him seem to be mainly the people with one or two, problem free doggies. Who don't have to manage a pack and know that they won't fight or kill each other, and who have never had to handle a strange, large breed dog who shows aggression in the severest form simply because it thinks that it is higher in status than humans.
I'd like to see Victoria Stillwell, deal with some of these cases.
Watch this clip.
The worst that happens is that Cesar says "shhhhhh".
YouTube - Dog Whisperer 19/26 : Insane Dane

and this one. Where is the cruelty, fear, spiked collar, kicking or anything else Colin seems to imagine happens? I see nothing but patience and compassion.
YouTube - Dog Whisperer: Shell Shocked

and who in their right mind would sit in the pen with this dog?
YouTube - Dog Whisperer: Patti Labelle Has Puppy Blues


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> I think the problem is that someone hears something about the man and his methods and decides they don't like the 'idea' of what he does. They may even watch one of the episodes, probably even look for an episode where a dog make be yelping and then it is fixed in their mind. _"Cesar Milan is in league with the devil, tortures dogs with cruel pointed pinch collars which do't 'pinch' but stab dogs deep into their necks causing wounds and bleeding. The dogs are all terrified of him and he is mean nasty and cruel"._
> 
> Nothing anyone can say will change their perception of him or his methods because it makes them feel happier to believe that he is a nasty cruel man and that every dog can be changed just as quickly by ignoring the fact that is has put people in hospital (the bad) and rewarding it when it wags it's tail at you (the good).
> Trouble is, when the bad is as bad as it can be, there is often no time to take it slowly and be oh so very sweet, kind and gentle and hope it works before the dog kills someone.
> ...


 
you are totally right. and last night he was trying to educate 'america' that not all 'bad' dogs need to be on death row. that there is another way.


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## avfc19 (Aug 11, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> But around here they are about £25 for a session per week. Not exactly pocket money for what they are taught, and for those who are training for a gun/falconry dog it is even more expensive.


well im from the west mids and our local dog trainin is 3.50 a session a week so not at all bad


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> I think the problem is that someone hears something about the man and his methods and decides they don't like the 'idea' of what he does. They may even watch one of the episodes, probably even look for an episode where a dog make be yelping and then it is fixed in their mind. _"Cesar Milan is in league with the devil, tortures dogs with cruel pointed pinch collars which do't 'pinch' but stab dogs deep into their necks causing wounds and bleeding. The dogs are all terrified of him and he is mean nasty and cruel"._
> 
> Nothing anyone can say will change their perception of him or his methods because it makes them feel happier to believe that he is a nasty cruel man and that every dog can be changed just as quickly by ignoring the fact that is has put people in hospital (the bad) and rewarding it when it wags it's tail at you (the good).
> Trouble is, when the bad is as bad as it can be, there is often no time to take it slowly and be oh so very sweet, kind and gentle and hope it works before the dog kills someone.
> ...


 
Totally agree with Pam. I dont like all his methods(but hey lots of things in this world I dont like LOL) but in general hes an excellent behaviourist with outstanding results. His own pack of dogs never ceases(sp) to amaze me:notworthy:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> I think the problem is that someone hears something about the man and his methods and decides they don't like the 'idea' of what he does. They may even watch one of the episodes, probably even look for an episode where a dog make be yelping and then it is fixed in their mind. _"Cesar Milan is in league with the devil, tortures dogs with cruel pointed pinch collars which do't 'pinch' but stab dogs deep into their necks causing wounds and bleeding. The dogs are all terrified of him and he is mean nasty and cruel"._
> 
> Nothing anyone can say will change their perception of him or his methods because it makes them feel happier to believe that he is a nasty cruel man and that every dog can be changed just as quickly by ignoring the fact that is has put people in hospital (the bad) and rewarding it when it wags it's tail at you (the good).
> Trouble is, when the bad is as bad as it can be, there is often no time to take it slowly and be oh so very sweet, kind and gentle and hope it works before the dog kills someone.
> ...


 
Seeing as this post seems to be aimed at me..........

I wonder if anyone can find the episode on YouTube where the JRT was wearing a pinch collar & made such terrible noises of pain & hurt when a-hole Milan was on the other end of the lead!!!

And I live with 2 dogs, so just because I don't have 15 dogs here, I am in no position to pass judgement on Milan?

I am sure Victoria Stillwell would be able to sort those dogs out, but by using methods less hands on & harsh.


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## avfc19 (Aug 11, 2008)

welll said zooman these collars are no neccesary and barbaric there shudnt even be a debate on it. people that like them shud ave them used on themselves


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Here you go! 

Pinch collar present - check!
Dog yelping in pain - check!
:whistling2:

YouTube - Dog Whisperer 11/26 : Calvin, Rudy, and Milo


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Here you go!
> 
> Pinch collar present - check!
> Dog yelping in pain - check!
> ...



You are joking right???
The dog isn't in pain. It is yelping as much in excitement. Chalky does exactly the same thing when he is off the lead and sticks his nose down a rat hole. That fast teeth chattering and high pitched yelping squealing noise.
The very first yelp made by the dog wasn't even in response to a jerk, Cesar was holding the lead loosely.
Colin honestly, I'm exasperated by your attitude and your determination that you want to believe that the dog is literally having pointed spikes driven deeply into his flesh and is in agony.
Comment about the bit later in the video where Cesar starts the bike and the dog looks up at him for guidance and reassurance, and then stands up with normal tail set when invited to come up by Cesar. Or did you miss that bit because you only wanted to see the bit where a dog yelped, and prefer not to watch the dog being unafraid and confident?
Do you really believe that every time a dog yelps, it is in agony or afraid?
I don't know why I'm wasting my time typing this as I can see that you have tunnel vision where Cesar Milan is concerned and even when you watch the whole clip, you see only what you want to see and ignore the rest.
We will have to agree to disagree on the topic. BTW is this the only episode of the dog whispered you ever watched and formed an opinion (a wrong one) on the man and his methods based on it?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

avfc19 said:


> welll said zooman these collars are no neccesary and barbaric there shudnt even be a debate on it. people that like them shud ave them used on themselves


 Have you ever seen one? Have you ever held one? Have you ever used one or seen one uised on a dog?
I mean, you wouldn't be making a statement on something you don't know beggar all about would you? I mean, that would make you look daft.
As for the last bit, I am fully prepared to have one put around my own neck and jerked and have a video taken of it happening and comment on what I feel.

BTW pythons and other big snakes are dangerous and aggressive. I know they are. They should all be banned. I once heard about one who bit someone and they can strangle children. Heard about that too. No, I know nothing about them, never met one or have no experience about them but I know what I believe to be true because I don't like anything I have ever heard about them.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> You are joking right???
> The dog isn't in pain. It is yelping as much in excitement. Chalky does exactly the same thing when he is off the lead and sticks his nose down a rat hole. That fast teeth chattering and high pitched yelping squealing noise.
> The very first yelp made by the dog wasn't even in response to a jerk, Cesar was holding the lead loosely.
> Colin honestly, I'm exasperated by your attitude and your determination that you want to believe that the dog is literally having pointed spikes driven deeply into his flesh and is in agony.
> ...


 
No, I'm not joking! 

I would have liked to have seen that dog's reactions & heard its vocalisations if that pinch collar was removed before Milan turned the motorbike engine on! I bet it wouldn't have yelped like it did when it felt the prongs pinch its skin!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

May I just comment on the noise that the JRT is making. I have a Yorkie x Kerry blue. He is a small black scruffy dog very loving and very sweet with terrier excitability thrown in....................................until we take him for a walk then he turns into a hysterical squealing monster. It is one problem we cannot sort. We tend to let him out into the front garden without a lead then put it on outside the door. The noise that JRT made was the exact noise that Josh makes if you put a lead on him inside the house and he isnt in any pain. Once on his walk he never says a word on or off the lead He is just so excited at the thought of a walk that he sounds like he is screaming. I just thought I would share.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> No, I'm not joking!
> 
> I would have liked to have seen that dog's reactions & heard its vocalisations if that pinch collar was removed before Milan turned the motorbike engine on! I bet it wouldn't have yelped like it did when it felt the prongs pinch its skin!



You would bet that would you? See to me this is a bit like whistling in the wind. You have no real idea or evidence that this is in fact what would have happened, but you prefer to believe it would be so. 
If the dog was in agony and afraid, how comes it kept the yapping and yelping up? Why was there not one clip showing it laying on the ground screaming in agony? How comes it wasn't backing away and piddling itself in fear instead of looking up to him sat on the bike, then happily standing up on it's back legs with tail raised and perfectly comfortable and unafraid of him?
If I hurt one of my dogs as badly as you say this dog was being hurt, I would lay money on the fact that for the next few hours if not days, the dog would be fearful of me, show extreme sumissiveness and not want to be anywhere near me. But you believe what you want to believe. It's in your mind that this dog is being tortured and it pleases you to believe this, for whatever reason and you will not even consider the possibility that in this case, you might actually have been mistaken. Take the clip as a whole instead of isolating one yelp and if you did that and watched a confident dog looking up at him with trust, you might actually doubt what you believed. But somehow, I just don't think that you want to. It isn't a problem really. If you are happy to believe then that's up to you. The only problem I have is when you make false statements about what is happening and what he is about and then some less knowledgeable dog owners. 'think' that they are seeing the same as you are.
So if I took a video of Chalky at a rat hole, you would say that I am hurting him somehow by remote control? He is making the same noises and doing the same excited teeth chattering. Or perhaps I should have him on a normal leather collar and lead and while he is doing the noise and teeth chattering, I'll try to jerk him away from the rat hole. You can watch the vid and tell everyone how awful I am because the dog is screaming in agony because I jerked it's leather collar.
Are you seeing how you could perhaps be seeing things which aren't necessarily there? (I doubt it).


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Terriers seem to be very hysterically vocal when they are excited


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## tish5566 (Apr 18, 2008)

I wouldn't waste your fingers replying Fennie,some people have tunnel vision when it comes to things like this.


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

It's not a matter of tunnel vision, some people simply have a difference of opinion, it doesn't make them wrong or right. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, though I shan't post mine on the matter, as there's no point tbh lol.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> You would bet that would you? See to me this is a bit like whistling in the wind. You have no real idea or evidence that this is in fact what would have happened, but you prefer to believe it would be so.
> If the dog was in agony and afraid, how comes it kept the yapping and yelping up? Why was there not one clip showing it laying on the ground screaming in agony? How comes it wasn't backing away and piddling itself in fear instead of looking up to him sat on the bike, then happily standing up on it's back legs with tail raised and perfectly comfortable and unafraid of him?
> If I hurt one of my dogs as badly as you say this dog was being hurt, I would lay money on the fact that for the next few hours if not days, the dog would be fearful of me, show extreme sumissiveness and not want to be anywhere near me. But you believe what you want to believe. It's in your mind that this dog is being tortured and it pleases you to believe this, for whatever reason and you will not even consider the possibility that in this case, you might actually have been mistaken. Take the clip as a whole instead of isolating one yelp and if you did that and watched a confident dog looking up at him with trust, you might actually doubt what you believed. But somehow, I just don't think that you want to. It isn't a problem really. If you are happy to believe then that's up to you. The only problem I have is when you make false statements about what is happening and what he is about and then some less knowledgeable dog owners. 'think' that they are seeing the same as you are.
> So if I took a video of Chalky at a rat hole, you would say that I am hurting him somehow by remote control? He is making the same noises and doing the same excited teeth chattering. Or perhaps I should have him on a normal leather collar and lead and while he is doing the noise and teeth chattering, I'll try to jerk him away from the rat hole. You can watch the vid and tell everyone how awful I am because the dog is screaming in agony because I jerked it's leather collar.
> Are you seeing how you could perhaps be seeing things which aren't necessarily there? (I doubt it).


I agree if i put that on say senna my Northern Inuit and it hurt her she wouldnt come near me for a year never mind sitting happily having a stroke.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Terriers seem to be very hysterically vocal when they are excited


 It is the one noise I absolutely hate. It drives me up the wall that screaming yodelling high pitched shrieking. Even more than the lurcher does when he stands at the child gate softly twittering and whimpering at me.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

so far it's been established that some people use these collars and some don't. that's progress.


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

Katiexx said:


> It's not a matter of tunnel vision, some people simply have a difference of opinion, it doesn't make them wrong or right. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, though I shan't post mine on the matter, as there's no point tbh lol.


everyones entitled to there own opinion, but should also consider other peoples opinions! and what there saying, not it doesnt make them wrong or right, but i do think some people need to learn the difference between fact and opinion.


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## Skyespirit86 (Feb 23, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> I wouldn't say that it is a lurcher specific problems since I've had lurchers all of my life and not one of mine has run off and not come back. In fact I have a very hard job trying to get my present one, to join the other dogs in a gallop across the riverbank. He trots with his head 3 inches behind my knee all the time.


Well there are countless different kinds. They are generally sensitive dogs. Many are quiet and friendly, but when they do suffer from behavioural problems it often includes running off, chasing, nipping, playing rough, hyperactivity... have met lurchers while out walking. One I know is getting on in years and is very noble and calm, another when unclipped from the lead just went like the clappers, running round and round and round until it ran into the back of the owners legs and I had to help the elderly man back onto his feet. I expect the mix they are has a lot to do with it but all members of a breed, or type of dog can not all be tarred with the same brush. Mine is part GermanShepherd, she is cheeky, extermely energetic,fast, clever, determined, loud and barky yet her underlying temperament is very nervous which I associate with German shepherds too. She looks innocent as pie- sweet little foxy face, yet from outside our house it sounds like we have a savage GSD in here! I think the big calm one I knew, who goes by the name of Hamish is part deerhound/wolfhound? Unsure but he's quite big. My friends one, which she has had trouble with is a small bedlington whippet cross. So maybe the large, noble looking ones you see in typical lurcher pictures are the ones you've always had? The sweet ones people imagine. But other mixes can be downright funny, and occasionally unhinged altogether! 
I have had real trouble in the past controlling my dog, and I know I am not the only one. The vast majority of the normal training techniques have failed completely, and not just after the first go either. And I know I am not the only one! See the lurcher in this video- its better if you scan half way through, that's where it appears. This i when they're funny, but after a while it can really make you suicidal. :lol2:
YouTube - Harry Hills Tv Burp - The Underdog Show

I think these kind of dogs, like some people, such as myself in fact are all basically highly strung. Depending on the individual and the situation it may make you inhibited or it may make you over-reactive. Some dogs rarely let go, others are total nut cases, but all stems from the same root. Just like I am highly strung and suffer from anxiety and shyness, but actually it can be hard to shut me up once I get going and I am a nervous perfetionist especially when I am writing (have youguessed?). My dad can be the same too so I probably inherited it from him.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Tunnel vision has nothing to do with it! It is what I believe to be true!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I have seen dogs be hit by people (unfortunatley) & most of those dogs have not ran away cowering & go sit in a corner sulking for hours. The majority will initially flinch, yelp sometimes, but then stand back up & move towards the person who hit them. This does not mean that that dog has not suffered any hurt or pain.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Brat said:


> I wouldn't use anything on any animal if it could do this..


I can see 2 rows of injuries there! Good pic Brat! :2thumb:


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> I can see 2 rows of injuries there! Good pic Brat! :2thumb:


Me too, I think one row is clearly worse than the other though. To be fair I think that kind of injury would take some doing with a pinch collar in 'normal' use - it looks like a pinch collar combined with abuse or perhaps the dog has been tethered on one. For me it reinforces my original point about the dangers of highlighting these tools on tv.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> I can see 2 rows of injuries there! Good pic Brat! :2thumb:


 Thinking unemotionally and rationally about this. I want you to ask yourself how blunt spikes could cause such deep puncture wounds? How would spikes on a collar which are designed not to dig into the flesh but come together in a pinch motion going from this ! ! to this V, make such injuries?
I cannot for the life of me, see how on earth these particular wounds could possibly be caused by a pinch collar.
Have you seen and handled a pinch collar Colin? Do you understand how the articulated prongs work and come together in a pinch motion like you putting forefinger and thumb together?
Unless you then put a thick leather collar around the pinch collar, and tightened it up in order to get the prongs to stay straight and somehow get forced into the flesh (hard to do with a broad blunt head, often tipped with a plastic cap), I still cannot see how these injuries were caused and instead of seeing a picture online and believing what I was told about the picture without that picture being verified by some believable body like a vet, I'm afraid I don't believe that a pinch collar caused those wounds. I mean it's not as though scams and lies have never been put about by people with an axe to grind is it? However, if it makes you happy to believe that a pinch (the clue is in the word) collar, becomes a stab collar and that any sane and rational dog owner would be happy to inflict these injuries and then get the dog stitched up every time they took it for a walk, then that's fine by me.
Otherwise, what explanation do you have?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Thinking unemotionally and rationally about this. I want you to ask yourself how blunt spikes could cause such deep puncture wounds? How would spikes on a collar which are designed not to dig into the flesh but come together in a pinch motion going from this ! ! to this V, make such injuries?
> I cannot for the life of me, see how on earth these particular wounds could possibly be caused by a pinch collar.
> Have you seen and handled a pinch collar Colin? Do you understand how the articulated prongs work and come together in a pinch motion like you putting forefinger and thumb together?
> Unless you then put a thick leather collar around the pinch collar, and tightened it up in order to get the prongs to stay straight and somehow get forced into the flesh (hard to do with a broad blunt head, often tipped with a plastic cap), I still cannot see how these injuries were caused and instead of seeing a picture online and believing what I was told about the picture without that picture being verified by some believable body like a vet, I'm afraid I don't believe that a pinch collar caused those wounds. I mean it's not as though scams and lies have never been put about by people with an axe to grind is it? However, if it makes you happy to believe that a pinch (the clue is in the word) collar, becomes a stab collar and that any sane and rational dog owner would be happy to inflict these injuries and then get the dog stitched up every time they took it for a walk, then that's fine by me.
> Otherwise, what explanation do you have?


Some scum bag may have hung the dog from a tree by its pinch collar! Such a force would drive the blunt ends into flesh.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Some scum bag may have hung the dog from a tree by its pinch collar! Such a force would drive the blunt ends into flesh.


 they still would not cause spaced out punctures because the collar, when tightened makes the prongs come together in a pincer movement.
If some scum bag had (and this again is only in our imagination) hung a dog from a tree, then any collar would have caused terrible injuries. Had it been a nice leather collar, or nylon collar, or slip lead or throttle/choke chain, the injuries would probably have consisted of deep lacerations where it bit in. But since there is no information about how these wounds were caused, I think it's a bit silly to talk about scum bags hanging dogs from tress.That is pure speculation and fantasy.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> they still would not cause spaced out punctures because the collar, when tightened makes the prongs come together in a pincer movement.
> If some scum bag had (and this again is only in our imagination) hung a dog from a tree, then any collar would have caused terrible injuries. Had it been a nice leather collar, or nylon collar, or slip lead or throttle/choke chain, the injuries would probably have consisted of deep lacerations where it bit in. But since there is no information about how these wounds were caused, I think it's a bit silly to talk about scum bags hanging dogs from tress.That is pure speculation and fantasy.


But could it not pinch the skin so hard that it penetrated the skin with the prongs. If it did that in a pinch position, where such force & brutality was used, then when the skin was not being pinched & was flat, would the resulting holes not be in a similar position to those in Brat's pic, spaced apart?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> But could it not pinch the skin so hard that it penetrated the skin with the prongs. If it did that in a pinch position, where such force & brutality was used, then when the skin was not being pinched & was flat, would the resulting holes not be in a similar position to those in Brat's pic, spaced apart?


 Honestly Colin it would be very very hard to see how they could. It's hard to describe really but the pinch collar is articulated,each link having one pair of prongs. When the collar is tightened with the same action as a check chain works, the pairs of prongs come together with the pairs of prongs in front or behind to make a pincer.Looking at the pattern of those puncture wounds, it looks to me like the prongs were driven straight in without the check action of the collar happening and I just can't see how that can be.
Again, the prongs are blunt so it would be like trying to drive the head of a nail (not the pointed bit) into the dog's neck, or a ball point pen with the actual pen bit not pushed out.
Because the pinch collar isn't like a choke chain, it doesn't form an ever tightening noose. It is a check chain and designed to tighten only so far, to allow the prongs to pinch and not be driven right into the flesh. If it was too tight I suppose it might be able to make some small injury but then the thing wouldn't even fit over the dog's head then in any case.
Looking at the photo, the dog looks to be a bichon or poodle or similar because of the wool. Who in their right mind needs to control such a dog with any kind of extreme force and even if someone was wicked enough to hang the dog by the neck wearing one of the collars, I doubt it would have enough weight to cause the prongs to bite in and cause deep puncture wounds like those.
Humans cause vile injuries to dogs with loads of different things. they kick them with boots, they throw them out of cars or beat them with sticks. Should we outlaw cars, boots and sticks?
Why are pinch collars outlawed in this country, yet choke/throttle chains can be bought from any pet shop and cause horrific damage? When I had my own pet shop, I refused to stock choke chains as I hate the damn things.
I am not advocating the use of pinch colalrs, chocke chains or anything else. I am merely saying that they are not as cruel as people seem to imagine they are, nor do they routinely cause injures and certainly not the kind on injuries seen in that photo. 
Look at this, it checks and isn't an ever tightening noose. Look at the blunt prongs? Each pair meets the pair behind or in front and pinches. Try putting your forefinger and thumb togetehr and poking them in the closed formation, through a bit of paper.
As I said, I don't advocate their use (neither does Cesar Milan) I wouldn't use one today not with all the other training aids on the market, but I have used one and can assure you that my dog Toby never once yelped screamed or had injuries.
Any training aid, even a slip lead, can cause injuries when used by someone cruel.


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