# "Breading back to the Father"



## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

Hiya, since rummaging over the forum I've seen a few people saying that they would breed their babies back to their own father, just curious as to why this is a "good idea" I'm not a fan of inbreeding and would hate to be forced to have a child with my dad or brother, so I'm curious as to why it seems to be generally accepted as a way to prove a het in a morph? Surely you could get a different male with the same type of morph? 

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, and it seems very widely spread throughout the reptile community (dont know for other pets but I expect the same) so I'm just trying to figure out why? I assume space and cost are the main culprets, like "why have 2 unrelated boys with the same set of genetic adaptations"


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

You're Anthropomorphising.


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

Ok I may be, but I also don't think its the best idea. To take it away from the reptile examples and onto dogs

Dalmations often go blind, German shepheards get arthritis, king charles spaniels (I think) occasionally have a brain too big for the skull and have fits

Often these traits are seen because of inbreeding, so why is it still done and an accepted practise. I'm not saying I have a massive problem with it, I'm just saying I wouldn't do it or try and breed from related pets, but others do and it seems to be part of the course, so I'm trying to understand why!


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## kingkelly (May 14, 2012)

Exactly you are treating the animals as humans. It's completely different.

Inbreeding is done ALL the time from the animals that are raised for meat to the pets we own. Inbreeding is not a bad thing IF it is used correctly and is understood by those doing it. You need to know the background of your animals and need to breed from robust healthy animals.

Inbreeding actually creates less issues than bringing in a complete outcross to a line. Many lines of breeding animals do not work together and can mask undesirable traits or issues.


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

Does anybody have anything I could read further to increase my understanding, because as I understand it, any problems in the father may be only 1/4 in the first generation offspring but would then be 1/2 in the second generation, therefore purifying the problems as well as the desirable traits? SO how I see it, you would be better off using a different male with the same desirable traits to breed with the first generation offspring, to inhance the desired characteristics and decrease any possible negative ones. So why doesn't this happen, is space the main factor or cost or convenience?

(trying to totally put it into science not emotion!!!)


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## Drayvan (Jul 7, 2010)

The thing with dog breeding as well is that people breed them only within 'breeds' so as not to get mongrels, so theres a very limited gene pool. With reptile morphs, people tend to work with species with greater numbers than a breed would have, so once a trait is proven by breeding back to parents/other offspring, people tend to breed out with normals to create hets/carriers... problems arise in animals (like dogs, as you say) when 'hets' are frowned upon.


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

Or is it just too hard to rule out possible other hets in any animal even if you know its history?


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

Ok I think I get it, basically as its a one off occurance its fine, but dont do it again sort of arrangement?


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## kingkelly (May 14, 2012)

kirstyhorsman said:


> Ok I may be, but I also don't think its the best idea. To take it away from the reptile examples and onto dogs
> 
> Dalmations often go blind, German shepheards get arthritis, king charles spaniels (I think) occasionally have a brain too big for the skull and have fits
> 
> Often these traits are seen because of inbreeding, so why is it still done and an accepted practise. I'm not saying I have a massive problem with it, I'm just saying I wouldn't do it or try and breed from related pets, but others do and it seems to be part of the course, so I'm trying to understand why!


Unfortunately all examples of when it had been done incorrectly by unscrupulous breeders.


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

kingkelly said:


> Unfortunately all examples of when it had been done incorrectly by unscrupulous breeders.


I understand this, but where is the cut off? And why not use a different male with the same desirable characteristics? The more I think about it the more I'm scratching my head as to when people stop, is it when fertility decreases and mortality increases, is it ASAP, is it sometimes a case of dont ask dont tell? I've tried searching but everywhere is about dogs or sibling-sibling, and often what I strongly suspect fibs to make their own breeding practises seem acceptable.

Please nobody take my curiosity the wrong way, I am not planning on breeding, or critising any one, I'm just too curious for my own good and will keep saying why like an annoying 4 year old until I'm satisfied! I studied biology to A-level and have always been fascinated by genetics and inheritance (probably comes of having a genetic medical condition!)


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## LarkaDawg (Aug 2, 2011)

I read up on inbreeding in one of my snake books. I can find the name and page number later if you so wish.
There was a case of someone from Germany I think, who bred his snakes eight generations brother-sister. And had no ill effects. In fact he said that the fertility increased and he produced healthier, larger animals. This is just what I remember, so it was worded differently. But I think it proves a point.

Inbreeding makes the gene pool smaller, but it is only if there are hidden defects that there are issues. It increases both the good points and the bad points. Ie hereditary defects, or a desired colour mutation.

Personally I have not much of an issue with inbreeding, but I would never go further than to breed back into direct 'family' twice. Not with me personally, but if you happen across a brand new recessive gene, how do you prove it out when the only know animal that carries the gene is the 'child' snake's sire and dam?

I'll find that page and post it on here when I get home.


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

That'll be awesome thanks! I understand about the good and the bad coming through too, I just think it seems a little unhealthy! One of my friends has all sorts of heriditary conditions and she says its because getting together with cousins is considered fairly normal in her family! (I know waaayyyy off topic - and no she says she won't be sticking to that family tradition )


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## sn8ks4life (Jul 27, 2011)

LarkaDawg said:


> *I read up on inbreeding in one of my snake books. I can find the name and page number later if you so wish.
> There was a case of someone from Germany I think, who bred his snakes eight generations brother-sister. And had no ill effects. In fact he said that the fertility increased and he produced healthier, larger animals. This is just what I remember, so it was worded differently. But I think it proves a point.
> *
> Inbreeding makes the gene pool smaller, but it is only if there are hidden defects that there are issues. It increases both the good points and the bad points. Ie hereditary defects, or a desired colour mutation.
> ...


if its stokl i would just ignore him lol....

but yes there is nothing wrong with breeding a baby back to the dad apart from the fact its a baby still:lol2:
seriously thou, it wont have any illl effects, depending on how much you inbred, same as rabbits, you can inbred for about 3 generations i think with rabbits before it goes tits up, nothing like that in snakes if your responsible, a few times breeding a offspring back to a parent then a offspring of that pairing back to the original dad will still be fine......


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

sn8ks4life said:


> seriously thou, it wont have any illl effects, depending on how much you inbred, same as rabbits, you can inbred for about 3 generations i think with rabbits before it goes tits up, nothing like that in snakes if your responsible, a few times breeding a offspring back to a parent then a offspring of that pairing back to the original dad will still be fine......


 
Thank you

But would it not be better to use a different male with the same desirable characteristics? Just so that any genetic problems will be less likely to be inherited? (this is the bit that really starts hurting my brain!) what would stop people doing this?


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## LarkaDawg (Aug 2, 2011)

sn8ks4life said:


> if its stokl i would just ignore him lol....


Yeah! Wasn't a book, it was the site. 

What's wrong with stokl?


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## sn8ks4life (Jul 27, 2011)

LarkaDawg said:


> Yeah! Wasn't a book, it was the site.
> 
> What's wrong with stokl?


he's a lying tool that photoshops his pics on his website and inbreeds worse than hillbillys.....


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## sn8ks4life (Jul 27, 2011)

kirstyhorsman said:


> Thank you
> 
> But would it not be better to use a different male with the same desirable characteristics? Just so that any genetic problems will be less likely to be inherited? (this is the bit that really starts hurting my brain!) what would stop people doing this?


say i got a hypo het albino male, bred it to even a normal ide get hypos all pos het albino, if i put the dad to say 2 of the girls that were produced that would get me albinos and sunglows providing one proves out, saves you buying one lol..... i dont agree with inbreeding too much, putting a sibling back to a parent once is enough IMO


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## LarkaDawg (Aug 2, 2011)

sn8ks4life said:


> he's a lying tool that photoshops his pics on his website and inbreeds worse than hillbillys.....


Wow. I never knew, thanks for explaining, I'll keep away.


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## sn8ks4life (Jul 27, 2011)

LarkaDawg said:


> Wow. I never knew, thanks for explaining, I'll keep away.


no worries buddy, good to do so: victory:


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

kirstyhorsman said:


> Thank you
> 
> But would it not be better to use a different male with the same desirable characteristics? Just so that any genetic problems will be less likely to be inherited? (this is the bit that really starts hurting my brain!) what would stop people doing this?


Yes.

Yes.

Money, space and availability of the desired type. As far as the genetics go, it's usually a good idea. 

When mating brother x sister in mice, the line either dies out within the first ten generations or goes on indefinitely. Selecting the healthiest, most vigorous animals for breeders and outbreeding to first cousins or more distant relatives helps preserve a blood line.


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but lots of species can carry hidden hets. So, although it may appear that you're buying a new male that has the same traits as the father, you may end up with something completely different or non-viable offspring. Also, with leopard geckos at least, there are different types of albinos - breeding two different albinos 'muddies' the gene pool and many breeders pride themselves on good, clean genetics.

I think (or at least hope) that people call it a day with inbreeding when they start producing weak, low fitness animals or start producing non-viable eggs/neonates. 

Inbreeding can be a very useful tool by increasing population resistance to certain diseases as well as bringing species back from extinction (black footed ferrets) - it has to be managed though and done responsibly.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

Inbreed doesn't cause problems that are not already present in the animals genotype. Ethical, well thought out and planned inbreeding is quite literally harmless regardless of how vulgar the concept seems to us as sentient creatures. 
Think about this for just a moment... Savu island python (to name just one example) come from a very closed location. The entire population resides on an island that if I recall is a hundred odd square miles. They are an enormously inbreed species when compared to some others. It's not like mummy savuensis will turn to her son and say "sorry dear, we're very closely related and I find the thought of shagging you repugnant., I'll just wait for some new blood to turn up..." She'd have a bloody long wait...!

Locality differences within species are a result of localised inbreeding. This is why there is such diversity of phenotype present in things like retics and corn snakes that have a wide natural range. These animals are not built to travel huge distances to breed so they will (and are 'designed' to) breed with who ever is closest. The day that snakes become migratory is the day I'll take back that opinion...

I also think that cautious inbreeding is essential at least every now and again. Say I breed some imaginary corn snakes with compatible hets. I get my double het babies and breed them together and get a load of youngsters with defects... Yup, horrible stuff but no, the inbreeding didn't cause the defects, it has just allowed me to discover that my breeding line has some form of recessive genetic cock up and that I should no longer breed either the original parent animals or the babies if I care about not passing this hidden recessive nasty on to other breeders. 

The issues seen in some breeds of dog are caused by thoughtless (or knowledge-less?) inbreeding. Whilst it can be used as a means of fixing good things into your bloodlines, it can also fix bad things too. 
I have an enormously inbred line of multimammate mice that throw massive litters, grow fast and don't bite. This is the result of careful and considered inbreeding. 

We as reptile keepers are by and large, utterly crap at keeping track of bloodlines. We don't pass on much in the way of genetic back ground info to buyers of our babies and no one keeps... well, I hesitate to say 'pedigrees' but you get what I'm on about!

Saying "Eeeew, that's munting! We should never force them to marry their offspring" is anthropomorphism in the extreme. Frankly, the snakes don't give a flying fish-stick and you could even argue that they have evolved to be able to contend with being inbred.


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

Thanks for all your explanations, I know it may not have really seemed it the way I posed the question, but it wasn't the actual mating bit I have a problem with I was just trying to establish if genetically it was really the best idea! I know in the wild inbreeding is especially common, particulary in remote areas, and notable in wolf packs, in these cases they are having to introduce new animals because the inbreeding is producing too many unviable litters with high mortality. So the gist is...

1) Only way to guarentee any hets in the animals
2) Space
3) Cost
4) Convenience
5) Can prove het problems in animals so you know not to breed from that individual again.


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## vetdebbie (Jan 4, 2008)

kirstyhorsman said:


> Thanks for all your explanations, I know it may not have really seemed it the way I posed the question, but it wasn't the actual mating bit I have a problem with I was just trying to establish if genetically it was really the best idea! I know in the wild inbreeding is especially common, particulary in remote areas, and notable in wolf packs, in these cases they are having to introduce new animals because the inbreeding is producing too many unviable litters with high mortality. So the gist is...
> 
> 1) Only way to guarentee any hets in the animals
> 2) Space
> ...


I don't see that 2) 3) or 4) are at all relevant in why people breed back to the father. Most people who are doing a project that involve that have plenty of space, plenty of snakes to swap and there is no additional convenience that I can see. The reason people breed back to the father is about genetics pure and simple.


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## cjbss9 (Jan 3, 2010)

*inbred*

I think the case is stronger when someone finds a new morph, as in the Witblits patternless bearded dragon(only new morph ive heard of recently)
Morphs like this come out in maybe a couple of offspring you then have no choice but to inbreed to prove it out and thus produce more of the same morph!!
That stops as soon as two visuals are producing 100% of the morph desired!
You can then start breeding out to other stock then other breeders can start the whole inbreeding again:gasp:
This is just what I understand from a new morph found in a beardie and this whole process can take a long time so more of a passion or labour of love.
Chris:2thumb:


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

Thanks Chris, I think that too, can understand it for the first time ever, but not when there are so many of that type already!


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## cjbss9 (Jan 3, 2010)

*snakes*



kirstyhorsman said:


> Thanks Chris, I think that too, can understand it for the first time ever, but not when there are so many of that type already!


I think when your talking about snakes the rare morphs can be really costly or difficult to find so people end up with het examples to produce the morph themselves!!
Chris


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## Bio (Oct 12, 2012)

Inbreeding is a difficult topic for humans, human siblings that produce offspring are more likely to carry recessive genetic disorders. We however have a huge gen pool, and millions of recessive diseases. The offspring therefore might be genetically less fit. The reptiles that we are breeding however are different because, inbreeding is seen more often in the wild. Therefore selection pressures have already reduced the likely hood that hidden genetic defects are present. In captivity any responsible breeder takes out animals showing genetic defects. Therefore with careful breeding it is possible to create a really healthy but small gen pool. 

Hope that helps


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## chrissypiv (Dec 8, 2009)

Inbreeding is used to strengthen a particular trait, as in more red in albinos, or enhancing a stripe pattern. 

When selectively bred offspring are used that is, so the best pair (hold backs) from a litter are bred, and then one offspring is bred back to a parent (to prove hets) or to a litter mate showing the best example of the desired trait your trying to improve. 

And so on and so on, each generation is called a filial or 'F' generation. so 1st gen is an 'F1' and so on when you get to F6 then the pair will breed true, this means they will make exact copies of the parents. 

It's has been done with fish, dogs and birds. 

If you come across a defect, one generation of out crossing will remedy the problem.

This process does have a big need to be selective in what you breed, you need to have the best animals available to you and it is a big bonus to know the genetic history.. :2thumb:


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

Woo Hoo I think I get it!

It was mostly the genetic problems that I had an issue with, but think my head has just about got around that now 

Thanks to everyone :2thumb:


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## mitsi (Feb 1, 2012)

inbreeding i would say goes on in the wild all the time, i cant see any snake knowing that the female they are mating with is their daughter, its been this way for thousands of years and im sure it will continue for thousands too.


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## Perrin93 (Jun 6, 2012)

From what i've been told, it's considered acceptable to inbreed snakes because in the wild they won't travel very far from where they were born/hatched so they could end up breeding with siblings/parents .
Not sure if this is true or if it's already been said


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## rexob (Sep 1, 2012)

kingkelly said:


> Exactly you are treating the animals as humans. It's completely different.
> 
> Inbreeding is done ALL the time from the animals that are raised for meat to the pets we own. Inbreeding is not a bad thing IF it is used correctly and is understood by those doing it. You need to know the background of your animals and need to breed from robust healthy animals.
> 
> Inbreeding actually creates less issues than bringing in a complete outcross to a line. Many lines of breeding animals do not work together and can mask undesirable traits or issues.


sorry but i cant say i agree with way you have said regarding inbreeding not being bad, we had a boxer dog pup, and have had boxers for over 10 years at 1 1/2 months old we had to have him put to sleep because he had 24 fits within 2 hours, ( never had 1 fit before that) and, this was due to inbreeding ( reported to us by our vet) we thought he was from good stock and had 12 champions in his familly but on closer inspection and a lot of searching their was a fair bit of inbreeding.

so im sorry to have to agree to disagree.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

rexob said:


> sorry but i cant say i agree with way you have said regarding inbreeding not being bad, we had a boxer dog pup, and have had boxers for over 10 years at 1 1/2 months old we had to have him put to sleep because he had 24 fits within 2 hours, ( never had 1 fit before that) and, this was due to inbreeding ( reported to us by our vet) we thought he was from good stock and had 12 champions in his familly but on closer inspection and a lot of searching their was a fair bit of inbreeding.
> 
> so im sorry to have to agree to disagree.


And this is an excellent example of why badly planned and unethical inbreeding is stupid. This wouldnt have happened had the breeders been payinh attention to health and vigor rather than rosettes, money and breed standards. 
This is why I am pleased there are no reptile breed standards!


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