# Perfect Naturalistic Beardie Substrate - (with pics)



## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

*Oat Bran

I did a little write up when i started using this a few months back and as promised here is an update......

*Concerns -

Mites - I spot clean every morning with a cat litter scoop and with a little help from my beardies turn the bran over with my scoop every other day or so, with the bran not getting wet and being airated regularly i have never had this problem.

Water - Personally i bath my beardies so don't have water in their vivs, the little amount of water that gets on the bran when their put back in dries up very quickly.

Impaction - My beardies havn't been seen eating the bran but if they did it doesn't clump like sand when wet, i put some in a container, added water and tried to compact it but it still fell apart.

Benefits -

Looks - It looks great in the viv (wheat bran is darker) as you can see in pictures.

Smell - To help hide the 'beardie stink' it smells gorgeous and still smells exactly the same around 6 months on.

Cleaning - I spot clean my vivs every morning (when my beardies usually go) using a cat litter scoop and turn over the bran but apart from this in around 6 months i have changed the bran once not because it smelt etc just as i got new viv stacks and the bag is so huge there was plenty to do all of them.

Price - I paid £5.50 for a huge 20k bag at my local farm/horse feed shop.

Digging - As in the wild they get the benefit of digging and as many of you will know beardies love to dig and bed down at night as well as landscape their enclosure - I have not found any substrate other than sand that allows this natural behaviour.

Everyone that has come to visit my beardies (and me!!!) has ended up converted, i think the moment they take a whiff their sold!



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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)




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## Ninjaaa23 (Jan 22, 2010)

nice :2thumb:


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

The important question has got to be what sound it makes in the runners??


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## trickster172 (Feb 1, 2010)

Anyone no if theres any named shops that sell this ?


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

SteveCourty said:


> The important question has got to be what sound it makes in the runners??


It does go into the runners a little like sand does but doesnt make that horrid screetching noise when doors are opened :2thumb:


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

trickster172 said:


> Anyone no if theres any named shops that sell this ?


Google farm shops or horse feed suppliers in your area :2thumb:


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## hickman2342 (Nov 15, 2009)

SteveCourty said:


> The important question has got to be what sound it makes in the runners??


Exactly, that glass on sand sound really goes right through me


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

I keep a layer of 4 inches of sand in my beardie viv. How hard do you think this would be to maintain?


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

Also probably a stupid question but is this the same as porridge oats?


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## LIZARD (Oct 31, 2007)

OHHHHHH that sound of sand in runners gives me the shudders lol!!


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## Ninjaaa23 (Jan 22, 2010)

LIZARD said:


> OHHHHHH that sound of sand in runners gives me the shudders lol!!


dont know what you guys are on about i love it:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

SteveCourty said:


> I keep a layer of 4 inches of sand in my beardie viv. How hard do you think this would be to maintain?


I have a layer of this 4" thick in my vivs, they seem to prefer it deeper :2thumb:


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

SteveCourty said:


> Also probably a stupid question but is this the same as porridge oats?


Yep it is but you will pay alot more to fill your vivs with small boxes of porridge oats lol


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## Bamboozoo (Oct 2, 2009)

Very cool!

I buy this stuff in a large bag from a feed supply store as it is what I keep my mealworms/supers in..........never thought of trying it as a substrate!
In using it that way I throw lettuce leaves of differing varieties as the water source and this amount of moisture never causes any problems with the bran.

Great idea!

Pat


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

Gemstone Dragons said:


> Yep it is but you will pay alot more to fill your vivs with small boxes of porridge oats lol


No im not planning to! Lol id need to be rather wealthy and stupid well im one of these and i certainly dont have much money.

I use porridge oats at the moment as a feed in my locust colonies and for my mealie breeding so its kind of a good idea for me as it kills two birds with a very cheap stone.


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

SteveCourty said:


> No im not planning to! Lol id need to be rather wealthy and stupid well im one of these and i certainly dont have much money.
> 
> I use porridge oats at the moment as a feed in my locust colonies and for my mealie breeding so its kind of a good idea for me as it kills two birds with a very cheap stone.


PMSL sorry caveman came to mind :lol2:


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## Phil_n (Feb 12, 2010)

your a genius, where did you get the idea? Im making a landscape currently for my viv and would leave a large roundish area for sand as mine loves to dig. I shall be getting some of this. 

Another benefit is the oats wont colourize the beardie as mine has gone pale on his underneath (legs, tail etc) Which i believe is from the play sand.

are you sure porridge oats are the same as porridge goes really thick and clumpy? or at leats when i make it it does. :lol2:


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

Phil_n said:


> your a genius, where did you get the idea? Im making a landscape currently for my viv and would leave a large roundish area for sand as mine loves to dig. I shall be getting some of this.
> 
> Another benefit is the oats wont colourize the beardie as mine has gone pale on his underneath (legs, tail etc) Which i believe is from the play sand.
> 
> are you sure porridge oats are the same as porridge goes really thick and clumpy? or at leats when i make it it does. :lol2:


I am not sure if it is exactly the same thing (i use readybrek not oats) but this definately does not clump.

I was given advice by a breeder friend who has been using it for years now without problems and anything that makes my beardies happy and is safe is worth a go i thought! :2thumb:


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## ..:: F1D0 ::.. (May 13, 2009)

Phil_n said:


> your a genius, where did you get the idea? Im making a landscape currently for my viv and would leave a large roundish area for sand as mine loves to dig. I shall be getting some of this.
> 
> Another benefit is the oats wont colourize the beardie as mine has gone pale on his underneath (legs, tail etc) Which i believe is from the play sand.
> 
> are you sure porridge oats are the same as porridge goes really thick and clumpy? or at leats when i make it it does. :lol2:


If you have the right sand (kiln dried, washed and silicone free) you should not get any colouration on to your beardie, afterall, we dont get colouration on our skin from using coloured glass to drink from, and afterall - sand is primarilly glass


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## XJedX (Jul 16, 2009)

if you have sand in the runners get a cotton bud and wet it a little so the sand will stick to it and you just slide it along the runner to the end and pull it all up and finish off with a bit of tissue to clean more. : victory:


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## Kaarn (Feb 3, 2010)

Would this be ok for a baby beardie? he is 9 1/2 inch long.

Just thinking as it looks awsome, and i suppose as it is edible it should be safe?

Great idea by the way.


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

Kaarn said:


> Would this be ok for a baby beardie? he is 9 1/2 inch long.
> 
> Just thinking as it looks awsome, and i suppose as it is edible it should be safe?
> 
> Great idea by the way.


With hatchling babies i will use lino myself but i have 7" upwards babies on it just fine :2thumb:


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## piehunter (Jul 10, 2007)

I know nothing about keeping beardies, but I do know that......


Porridge oats or Ready Brek (other brands are available) are NOT the same product as bran
: victory:


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

i use chipsi mais for one of my leo vivs, its cracked corn and has very little negatives, it smells good, its clean, it doesnt get in the runners, if eaten by mistake its digestible.

the only issue i have found is that mealworms can live in it if they escape.


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## Geckogirl_88 (Apr 24, 2009)

Hmmm, Im intrigued by this.
I had settled on using excavation clay for my leos when I buy them their big vivs, but my Olly does Love to dig, and this stuff sounds fab.
Plus, we have chickens, so Im sure I could probs get this stuff from the same place my dad gets the chicken feed/mash 

Is it dusty tho?
Im always paranoid about dust levels lol, ever since my poor wee mousey when blind cos of the amount of dust in cheep sawdust/wood shavings.

xx


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

I wouldnt say it was dusty, if i dont bath my beardies for a couple of days they seem to apear a little dusty on their backs (no different to sand i suppose) but all in all the viv isnt full of dust, i dont notice any when i open the doors and i have had no problems like this with my beardies.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

About the mites and sand impaction...

Even if mites did pop up, they would not be reptile mites and they would not feed on your reptile... Besides, there would not really be mites in bran... They would most often be small beetles that can be mistaken for mites...

Sand impaction is not caused by sand... It is caused by poor husbandry... Although sand can clump when it is wet, it will still easily pass through a healthy reptiles digestive tract...

When reptiles are not properly heated and hydrated, impaction can occur... 

What does cause impaction is calci sand and the sort.... Those sands are man made and reduce stomach acids and also crystalize when wet...

If you are keeping your reptile properly, natural sand is as safe of a substrate as any....



Slurm said:


> i use chipsi mais for one of my leo vivs, its cracked corn and has very little negatives, it smells good, its clean, it doesnt get in the runners, if eaten by mistake its digestible.


Actually it is not digestable... If anyone has ever eaten corn and looked in the toilet the next day they would know this... LOL


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## _Ben_ (Feb 27, 2010)

Ok I am thinking of getting this bran for my 8 month old beardie to cover about half his viv for him to play in. Just wondering if theres any treatment for the bran before putting it in? or is it straight from the bag to the viv?


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

Gregg M said:


> Actually it is not digestable... If anyone has ever eaten corn and looked in the toilet the next day they would know this... LOL


actually it is digestible, its the outer shell of corn thats impedes digestion, as i said this is cracked corn, no shell just the insides.

So seeing as you like looking in toilets so much, either chew the corn properly or remove the outer shell and then look in your toilet, you wont see any corn...: victory:

also i bought a young gecko that was displayed on sand, her insides were shredded by sand as it passed thru, so thats not always true, sand can be very sharp, it does depend on type, but its still an unnecessary risk however you look at it and whatever you attribute its consumption from. if its not there whatever the reason it cant eat it.


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## Paul B (Apr 16, 2008)

Bran is available from most pet shops.
We sell it loose at £1.30 a kilo which is about a carrier bag full. or in 10 - 20 kg sacks at a reduced price.

So if you are local pop in and try it and see what it looks /smalls like as I am using it too.

Or we post it too.

P


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## Lex (Sep 11, 2008)

Horse keepers use a similar thing for bedding, if you want to go down this route then try looking down that avenue as you are likely to find a 20kg bag for comparible prices to those of highstreet pet stores selling at 5Kg.


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## kellymca2001 (Sep 8, 2008)

hi i have tried everywhere today to get bran oats and cant get them i have foned around the local stables,,farms and petshops and noone stocks it...now i had noticed that someone asked earlier if these were the same as porridge oats...would porridge oats still be a safe alternative?? as i wouldnt mind spending that wee bit more and buying the porridge oats xx


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

My local farmshop said on the phone they dont sell oat bran but OH knows someone with horses who gets her feed from the same place and said they did, lo and behold when we went down there labelled up as just 'Bran' 20k sacks for £5.50!! :bash:


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## Dandelion (Nov 11, 2008)

Do you think this would be ok for a Uro?? My juvi is nearly ready to move on from newspaper and I am looking for sand alteratives :2thumb:


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

I only use it myself with y beardies but it is used as a sand alternative so i dont see why not.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Slurm said:


> also i bought a young gecko that was displayed on sand, her insides were shredded by sand as it passed thru,.


Really??? you would not happen to have photo documentation of this, would you??? Her insides were actually shredded??? stretching the truth a bit are we???

You are missing my point... Natural sand will not cause impaction... Impaction is a secondary issue to a primary problem...


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## Tarn~Totty (May 4, 2009)

Thanks Jo for this thread...Ive been and got a sack for £7 from my local animal food supplier, done a big clean out of everything (dragons and feeders) and put the bran in....the beardies love it, havnt stopped digging for ages, the locusts are tucking into it and so are the roaches : victory: the stuff I got is called wheat bran, but the bloke said it was the same sort of thing...lovely and soft and smells nice too :2thumb:

The big test will be when we get poop in the viv tomorrow, Im hoping it gets rid of the odour abit :lol2:


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

Tarn~Totty said:


> Thanks Jo for this thread...Ive been and got a sack for £7 from my local animal food supplier, done a big clean out of everything (dragons and feeders) and put the bran in....the beardies love it, havnt stopped digging for ages, the locusts are tucking into it and so are the roaches : victory: the stuff I got is called wheat bran, but the bloke said it was the same sort of thing...lovely and soft and smells nice too :2thumb:
> 
> The big test will be when we get poop in the viv tomorrow, Im hoping it gets rid of the odour abit :lol2:


I was told when it was recomended that wheat bran is fine too it is just a little darker in colour and doesnt have as much of an oaty smell - obviously lol

I use a cat litter tray scoop to spot clean as it obv doesnt go through a sand scoop and airate it by turning it all over every few days (never had mites but this would stop it) which as you now know the beardies help with too :lol2:

Mine smelt just as oaty 6 months on and members who visited were sold on the idea as soon as they opened punks viv to take a whif - it was as if i had just put it in!

They say change it all every few months, i brought a new bag to fill new vivs and had extra so replaced my original stuff once so far.

I just delivered another 3 bags to Loubielou211 today also lol


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## lfields85 (Jan 7, 2010)

This seems like a really good idea. Im putting my beardie on sand tomorrow but if that doesnt work out ill give oats a try.


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## _Ben_ (Feb 27, 2010)

Well today I managed to track down some wheat bran, and filled half the viv with it. He isnt too sure of it just yet, but I think he likes the taste, as every time he jumps down onto it, he snacks alittle. I am assuming this wont be a problem? Its not like hes filling up on it, its just the odd piece or two?


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

_Ben_ said:


> Well today I managed to track down some wheat bran, and filled half the viv with it. He isnt too sure of it just yet, but I think he likes the taste, as every time he jumps down onto it, he snacks alittle. I am assuming this wont be a problem? Its not like hes filling up on it, its just the odd piece or two?


He will 'taste' it touching it with the tip of his tongue to see what it is as he would with other beardies too etc but don't worry it won't ake him sick and he will be happier being able to bed down at night in it too - expect lots of crators :lol2:


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## _Ben_ (Feb 27, 2010)

Gemstone Dragons said:


> He will 'taste' it touching it with the tip of his tongue to see what it is as he would with other beardies too etc but don't worry it won't ake him sick and he will be happier being able to bed down at night in it too - expect lots of crators :lol2:


He was definatly eating alittle of it (I could see him chewing away), but he seems to like. He pretended to sulk after I put it in, and ignore it really. But left my webcam on recording over lunch while I was away and I get back and he had been running about on it most of the time :lol2:


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## murphy27 (Aug 9, 2007)

good thread !!!!!

i have bran in with my rankins and they seem to like it. its normal bran so doesnt really have a scent - but its seems pretty good as substrate. 

I wouldn't recommend resting any viv furniture on top of it as its not secure and can easily be moved by your rep. safety first - i'd lay all stones/caves/bowls etc on viv floor and then put bran around it.

my little rankin (18grams worth of lizard) managed to dig up a 3kg cave and moved it!!! I sh*t mysef and made it more secure!!

BRAN AS SUBSTRATE = :2thumb:

BRAN AND WATER BOWL = :devil: (my rankins enjoy kicking loads of bran into the bowl as soon as ive cleaned it and put it back in viv)

BRAN AND POOP = ????????? (havent got that far yet)


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

murphy27 said:


> good thread !!!!!
> 
> i have bran in with my rankins and they seem to like it. its normal bran so doesnt really have a scent - but its seems pretty good as substrate.
> 
> ...


:lol2:

BRAN AND POOP = Cat litter tray scoop to spot clean as you would sand with a sand scoop : victory:


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## moonstruck (Aug 10, 2008)

i'm seriously considering tyring this now when the new vivs are built, i use lino tiles at the moment but they still try to dig on them and it makes me feel bad because they can't

this could be the ultimate substrate solution!


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## supakimmy13 (Oct 22, 2009)

Paul B said:


> Bran is available from most pet shops.
> We sell it loose at £1.30 a kilo which is about a carrier bag full. or in 10 - 20 kg sacks at a reduced price.
> 
> So if you are local pop in and try it and see what it looks /smalls like as I am using it too.
> ...


I've just gone and bought a 20kg sack of bran for £6.80 works out 34p a kilo n ur charging £1.30 a kilo lol!! 

do u sell alot of it? if so i mite start going into selling the bran business if i'm gonna make that much profit on it haha

Anyway back to the original reason of this thread and my post. I have today purchased bran and tonight i will be giving my beardies a good clean out and introducing them to the wonderful world of bran substrate. At the minute they are all just on lino but i do notice at night more than anything when its time to settle down to sleep they try to dig so hopefully they will be happier with this.

Can i ask tho do u feed ur beardies in their vivs and basically let the live food run free in the bran etc or do u feed them in a seperate container sort of thing? Daft question probaly as it wouldnt really matter i suppose as bran is edible and digestable but i was just intrigued to know.


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## vicjim (May 18, 2009)

Hmm never thought of using bran. My sis has a horse so might give this a go when i do a clean out next week. Good thread


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## Amoa123 (Oct 6, 2008)

i just use sand and had no problems what so ever yesi started with the usual toilet paper untill abit older but after tasting it my beardie has never tried to eat it again and is to lazy to chase crickets she eats them straight out of the pot i dust them in so no problem for impaction for me and sand is not really expensive either if you get it from argos etc


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## supakimmy13 (Oct 22, 2009)

I've just deep cleaned two if my beardies vivs and have now put the bran in it. I am in love already and at least one of my beardies is aswell lol.
It looks the business and because its slightly darker than oat bran it seems to blend in with the viv decors etc. From a distance u would probally think its sand.

Duchess who is 6 months old took to it straight away. Infact after a little explore around and taste etc she is now proudly all puffed out basking and looking all colourful. She's been in a bit of a grump today cos she's about to go into shed again but since the bran has been in she seems happier. We'll see how she is after a few days.

Tigger who is just coming up to a yr old isn't that impressed at the min but tbh he gets the grump about anything that is changed in his viv lol. Hes had a lil explore and taste but hes definately not impressed bless him. I'm sure he'll change his mind tho once he realises hes finally got something to dig in and curl up in for the nite. Before i put this in, most nites before his lights went off he'd try to dig on his lyno to no avail.

Anyway will keep u all posted


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## Will-2k9 (May 10, 2009)

I thought about using oat bran a while back but then heard that oats arent too good for beardies so decided against it incase he started eating it... He eats everything lol

Id love to use this in my viv as at the moment i have sand glued and varnished down to the bottom of the viv so it looks sandy but he cant swallow it. Only problem is, rocky really only eats in the viv, tried him in a large stack and store but he just tries to climb up it and seems chlostaphobic Have you tried feding crickets in it? id think that they'd bury themselves under it wouldnt they?


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## paulb1912 (Aug 2, 2009)

Can I ask do you think this is a goer then ?

I have used repti carpet - good but have to buy new every couple of months

Reptile Sand - tried it but panicked due to the stories on here about impaction even though I havent seen her eating it but worried about when crickets are running about and she eats a bit of sand too, also noticed she didnt poo as much when I tried sand so could have eaten some, went back to normal when I used carpet

Kitchen towl changed it everyday

I am buying a wooden viv in next month and was just wondering if it is worth trying the oat bran ??


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## Tiliqua (Dec 6, 2008)

For me, using oat bran or wheat bran is a bad idea. It is very very sensitive to moulding in contact with a humid atmosphere and is incredibly dusty when dry. Also, I breed my own feeder insects and can not imagine the pest problem this would cause! Sorry for negativity but can not see why anyone feels the need to try this? Haven't kept beardies for years but washed and dried playsand contains no dust and is more natural.

Mark.


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

supakimmy13 said:


> I've just gone and bought a 20kg sack of bran for £6.80 works out 34p a kilo n ur charging £1.30 a kilo lol!!
> 
> do u sell alot of it? if so i mite start going into selling the bran business if i'm gonna make that much profit on it haha
> 
> ...


Mine are fed in their vivs on roaches which i find huddle up in the frshly dug hole in the corner - clever beardies!

I don't have problems with my guys missing their food but for that reason and as its easier to keep clean i will be sticking with lino in my baby vivs.


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

Tiliqua said:


> For me, using oat bran or wheat bran is a bad idea. It is very very sensitive to moulding in contact with a humid atmosphere and is incredibly dusty when dry. Also, I breed my own feeder insects and can not imagine the pest problem this would cause! Sorry for negativity but can not see why anyone feels the need to try this? Haven't kept beardies for years but washed and dried playsand contains no dust and is more natural.
> 
> Mark.


No negativity and added opinions is good thank you.

I do not have a problem with humidity as i dont have water in my beardies vivs, their very dry so i havnt come across this problem.

I have never had mould or mites in the bran bt this could be because i turn it over airating it every few days (with the help of the beardies) and it is kept dry.

I don't have a problem with dust either, the only time mine look a little dull/dusty is when their coming up for a shed.

I too breed my own feeder insects and feed my beardies with roaches in their vivs, they are fed very well and are only actually fed every other day due to there still being bugs in their vivs (usually under basking log/in corner) the following day.

I have never seen a roach egg in the vivs and dont have a problem with bran in with my feeders as my roaches prefer humidity and a substrate made up of their own crap so i dont use it in there.

I have bran in with my mealies and as their kept dry (moisture provided with raisins and a little greens removed after 12 hours) it also hasnt been a problem there.

These are just my experiences over the last 6 months :2thumb:

Please do keep up the feedback, with everything there is a drawback, maybe it is that it cant be used with humid enclosures or maybe we just havnt found it yet?


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## Will-2k9 (May 10, 2009)

Right, thats just converted me. I was going to do a full rehaul of rockies viv for the summer anyway so i think ill incorporate this in it. I cant wait to see him digging.


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## TerryG17 (May 21, 2009)

This thread has really torn me. I currently have 5 beardies and have been thinking about replacing the substrate for all of them. What other things are people using other than calci sand, playsand, bran???


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## Tiliqua (Dec 6, 2008)

Gemstone Dragons said:


> No negativity and added opinions is good thank you.
> 
> I do not have a problem with humidity as i dont have water in my beardies vivs, their very dry so i havnt come across this problem.
> 
> ...


 
Glad to see that you are not oversensitive to criticism!!! Again, I think that this is a bonkers idea, but I also accept that the accepted order of things needs to be challenged from time to time...

With my NT Australian blue tongues I use playsand topped with a layer of beechwood chips.

Mark.


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## Geckoman OZ (Feb 7, 2010)

Slurm said:


> actually it is digestible, its the outer shell of corn thats impedes digestion, as i said this is cracked corn, no shell just the insides.
> 
> So seeing as you like looking in toilets so much, either chew the corn properly or remove the outer shell and then look in your toilet, you wont see any corn...: victory:
> 
> also i bought a young gecko that was displayed on sand, her insides were shredded by sand as it passed thru, so thats not always true, sand can be very sharp, it does depend on type, but its still an unnecessary risk however you look at it and whatever you attribute its consumption from. if its not there whatever the reason it cant eat it.


In my experience most species of Australian geckos will only ingest sand when feed insects that are too small and they get a mouthfull of sand when grabbing them, saying that sand is bad for geckos is a pretty big call, I would go as far as saying that geckos such as Knob-tails would actually do worse without sand due to the fact they cannot burrow which would really stress them out imo.
Having said this species such as Phyllurus platurus should never be kept on sand as its not natural for them and they will ingest unsafe amounts.
Beardies are fine on sand (what do you think they live on in the wild?) as adults when kept at proper temperatures and fed appropriately sized insects.

Thanks Gex


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

Guess what I went and done today


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

SteveCourty said:


> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3668704&id=747443895image
> 
> Guess what I went and done today


LOL no crators yet or do you keep smoothing it down hoping it may stay like that??


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

Gemstone Dragons said:


> LOL no crators yet or do you keep smoothing it down hoping it may stay like that??


its been in an hour I also brought him a new bit of cork bark and hes sat on that all happy at the mo


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## Ninjaaa23 (Jan 22, 2010)

cheers gemstone and steve will be ditching the carpet me thinks hell il do my whole house in oats saves putting down laminate flooring:devil:.


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

Ninjaaa23 said:


> cheers gemstone and steve will be ditching the carpet me thinks hell il do my whole house in oats saves putting down laminate flooring:devil:.


lol not a bad idea I was wondering what to do with the rest


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## Ninjaaa23 (Jan 22, 2010)

would stick to ur socks though 
a benifet though is if yu drop your toast or whatever u can just pick it up and happily munch away:2thumb:


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## Richyroo (Jun 7, 2009)

I am desperate to try oat bran but all of my local horse feed stockists are telling me you can only get wheet bran!!! 
Any idea what im doing wrong?? :2wallbang:


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## _Ben_ (Feb 27, 2010)

Richyroo said:


> I am desperate to try oat bran but all of my local horse feed stockists are telling me you can only get wheet bran!!!
> Any idea what im doing wrong?? :2wallbang:


At the horse shop I got my wheat bran from they had 'crushed oats' so I dont know if they are the same. I decided to get wheat bran as I didnt know. But next time I am going to hunt down oat bran (unless ofcourse crushed oats are the same thing).


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## Richyroo (Jun 7, 2009)

so what do you think of wheat bran?? :notworthy:


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## _Ben_ (Feb 27, 2010)

Richyroo said:


> so what do you think of wheat bran?? :notworthy:


I seems to cover all the requirements that oat bran does, except for the smell. I cant describe the smell of the wheat bran, I would almost say its close to odourless? Im pretty sure its identical to the bran in the live food tubs, if thats any help?


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## Richyroo (Jun 7, 2009)

Cool, thanks mate, think ill give it ago then!! :2thumb:


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

I thought it was the same thing lol. I brought wheat bran and it does have a nicer smell than the viv usually does whenI had sand in it. Looks great to.
So whats the difference between oat bran and wheat bran then


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## Will-2k9 (May 10, 2009)

Oat bran is made out of oats and Wheat bran is made out of Wheat.


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## _Ben_ (Feb 27, 2010)

SteveCourty said:


> I thought it was the same thing lol. I brought wheat bran and it does have a nicer smell than the viv usually does whenI had sand in it. Looks great to.
> So whats the difference between oat bran and wheat bran then


Yeah wheat bran does have a slight odour to it, and I think it absorbs all the nasty smells in the viv, so makes it a nicer smell. But from what I understand oat bran smells like oats (like wheat bran smells more of wheat). But basically does the same job, different smell.


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## Richyroo (Jun 7, 2009)

Will-2k9 said:


> Oat bran is made out of oats and Wheat bran is made out of Wheat.


pmsl :rotfl:


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

Will-2k9 said:


> Oat bran is made out of oats and Wheat bran is made out of Wheat.


haha yeah I knew that bit lol. I meant in advantages/disadvantages :blush:


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## _Ben_ (Feb 27, 2010)

SteveCourty said:


> haha yeah I knew that bit lol. I meant in advantages/disadvantages :blush:


In terms of substrate I think they are identical, its just the smell thats different (from what I understand). So do you prefer the smell of oats or wheat? :lol2:


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

_Ben_ said:


> In terms of substrate I think they are identical, its just the smell thats different (from what I understand). So do you prefer the smell of oats or wheat? :lol2:


 Umm oats would win then but the wheat still smells nice. Itd be good to see in two months when hes left a few parcels


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## _Ben_ (Feb 27, 2010)

SteveCourty said:


> Umm oats would win then but the wheat still smells nice. Itd be good to see in two months when hes left a few parcels


I only got wheat bran as it was all the shop had, so figured I would give it ago. Just ashame the smallest bag was 25kgs. But I will give it afew months, see how it holds up. But I think next time I will hunt down some oat bran, so I can compare. Either way my beardie enjoys it regardless of smell! haha


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## Heather7000 (Mar 24, 2010)

Can I use this for geckos?


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## bluest170 (Nov 3, 2009)

Does anyone know where I can get oat bran online, I can't find anywhere in Milton Keynes that sells this
many thanks


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## GallimoreNUFC (Mar 18, 2010)

bluest170 said:


> Does anyone know where I can get oat bran online, I can't find anywhere in Milton Keynes that sells this
> many thanks


I would also like to know this


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## Ninjaaa23 (Jan 22, 2010)

u can get 500g of wheat bran for bout £2 of rickslivefood


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## steve_3125 (May 20, 2009)

been using Bran for well over a year now recommended by a top breeder tried it and they seemed to love to it. They nest down at night snuggle up in it. 

At first they were tasting it like they do with everything with their tongue but never have i seen them eat it.


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## Ninjaaa23 (Jan 22, 2010)

can u not get wheat bran cereals and crunch it up


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## steve_3125 (May 20, 2009)

Tesco value porridge oats lol


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## Ninjaaa23 (Jan 22, 2010)

steve_3125 said:


> Tesco value porridge oats lol


would this work ok


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## CrawlingRuby (Dec 28, 2009)

hi does any one no where you can get this bran in the derby area??

thank you connor


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

the issue with oat bran or wheat bran is mould.. it can have mould on it before it even gets to the tank you see..

especially with it getting wet/ faeces on it.. the risk then increases

i did some research on this and decided against it for this reason.. the issue was that it is not always visable to the eye..

that said.. it ticks all the boxes in other areas : victory:


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

sparkle said:


> the issue with oat bran or wheat bran is mould.. it can have mould on it before it even gets to the tank you see..
> 
> especially with it getting wet/ faeces on it.. the risk then increases
> 
> ...


The hope is that with spot cleaning this wont be an issue. Intresting tho does it harbour bacteria more than sand?


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## ozyshane (Dec 17, 2008)

I got my self a 20kg. bag yesterday for under £6 from my local horse feed shop. Staff there described it as "broad bran" not "oat bran". I was having a tuff time finding "oat bran" like others on this thread until i described what exactly i was looking for. If people mention that it is very similar to porriage oats it might help shop staff find it. 
Im trialling it in 3 of my vivs, and so far so good, the beardies seem to love it! If i come accross any problems, i will either add to, or start a thread to highlight any issues with bran.


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## bluest170 (Nov 3, 2009)

Ninjaaa23 said:


> u can get 500g of wheat bran for bout £2 of rickslivefood


thankthanks will have a look on there. Sure my beardies will love it!


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

LOL i had a member of staff stop to ask if i needed advise on feeding my horse when i was in my local supliers last week, she laughed when i explained what the 3 sacks on my trolley were for as it is used to feed horses with colic/poorly tummies - that was Loubielou211's collected and delivered :2thumb:


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## steve_3125 (May 20, 2009)

When i buy mine the women goes Ahh the Lizard man? :hmm: lol


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## Heather7000 (Mar 24, 2010)

What age does my bearded dragon need to be before I can use this? He is currently 2 months old. Will he be ok on bran?

Thanks


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## Alfie84 (Sep 14, 2009)

Hey Heather7000

I would personally say that you should stick to the usuall rule that do not put bearides on any loose substrate until they are 6 months and/or around 14" long.

Humm this sounds interesting...I was fed up with having to scoop poop of of tiles / lino so i went to sand found it just gets everywhere veg bowl, floor, runners! and really annoyed me, currently trying beach wood chips, but i am having to feed my bearides outside of the viv but ofc still the constant worry fo them eating a bit...but this oak bran seems to tick all the boxes.

No / very low impaction risk?
Smells good
Cheap
Easy to clean
NOT SAND!

the only few issues I could see are

1) If a morios / mealie get loose they could hide very well in there but if a worm got out and hide in woodchip / sand and the beardie spotted it and ate it very high risk of them injecting the substrate ofc same with oak / wheat but I wouldn’t be concerned about them eating.

2) is it real dusty stuff wouldn’t like it to cause any respiratory problems

3) will it harbour bacteria more than say sand?


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

When its first put in its a little dusty for about 10 minutes but havent noticed any disturbed dust since it went in. Cant help you on the rest tbh


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## Alfie84 (Sep 14, 2009)

Ah thats good to know...i think ill give it ago =) thanks


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## Heather7000 (Mar 24, 2010)

Thanks Alfie - I'll leave him on his repti-carpet for now


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## Dynamos Dragons (May 23, 2009)

Ok Gemstone Dragons my little gem, if i could get both what is your recommendation Oat or Wheat bran???????????????? :whistling2:


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

Dynamos Dragons said:


> Ok Gemstone Dragons my little gem, if i could get both what is your recommendation Oat or Wheat bran???????????????? :whistling2:


OATS! 

They smell gorgeous (even mixed with lizard poo lol) and are slightly lighter in colour to wheat bran (i had a choice of both too).

:no1:


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## Ben-f (Mar 7, 2009)

i wanna give this a go but i can only find wheat bran:devil: and i much prefer the smell of oat, has anyone found anywhere online that sells oat bran yet?


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## dexterslab (Mar 15, 2010)

Wow, just read through the whole thread, my vivs in need of a decent clean, so i'm definitely going to give this a go while I'm at it! :2thumb:


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## Dynamos Dragons (May 23, 2009)

I shall ring my horsey neighbour and see what she can get....fingers crossed its oat bran , cheers mate



Gemstone Dragons said:


> OATS!
> 
> They smell gorgeous (even mixed with lizard poo lol) and are slightly lighter in colour to wheat bran (i had a choice of both too).
> 
> :no1:


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

No probs, its nice to be able to give back to a forum that has taught me loads lol


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

Gemstone Dragons said:


> No probs, its nice to be able to give back to a forum that has taught me loads lol


Well you should be proud in the fact youve inspired countless people to change there substrate my beardie has never been happier


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## Dynamos Dragons (May 23, 2009)

Hope my Bongo likes it :lol2: he is fussy and moody and Bundaberg wont care lol she is so laid back .

This forum has taught a lot of people a lot of things however everything has to come from someone at somepoint so good on ya buddy :notworthy:


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## Toma (Sep 22, 2009)

Now i've read this i want to try it with my corn snake do you recon that would be ok can't think why it wouldn't? Let me know what you think.


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## Phil_n (Feb 12, 2010)

You can buy it online from a couple of places but they sting you on carriage. I found a shop near me called Julian Graves that has multiple stores throughout the uk that sells oatbran.

Only 500g bags so not best value but it has done me untill i find it cheaper in bulk.

Toma you might be bettter off asking in the snake section.


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## Paul B (Apr 16, 2008)

I sell it in my shop @ £1.40 a kilo. larger quantities at reduced prices.
I can post or courier it which costs £1.50 for a kilo but only £7.00 for 10kg up to 20kg.

I have used it among many substrates for my dragons and it does smell nice and is totally digestible and looks nice too.

And no nasty runner noises.

PM if you are interested.

Paul


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## Ben-f (Mar 7, 2009)

seriously i have rung every horse feed and supplies shop in a 20mile radius from me and not only do they not have oat bran none of them have ever even heard of it :devil: i can find wheat bran but i would much rather have the smell of oat bran lol there must be an online shop that sells it in bulk, no offence to the person who as already stated he can sell it and post it but it would cos quite alot for the amount i would need to fill a viv.


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## Ninjaaa23 (Jan 22, 2010)

Ben-f said:


> seriously i have rung every horse feed and supplies shop in a 20mile radius from me and not only do they not have oat bran none of them have ever even heard of it :devil: i can find wheat bran but i would much rather have the smell of oat bran lol there must be an online shop that sells it in bulk, no offence to the person who as already stated he can sell it and post it but it would cos quite alot for the amount i would need to fill a viv.


just get wheat bran its only a smell lol its not as if wheat bran smells bad


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

Im using wheat bran and couldnt be happier


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## Ninjaaa23 (Jan 22, 2010)

SteveCourty said:


> Im using wheat bran and couldnt be happier


same 
its so much more appealing than sand and easier to clean
aso my beardie loves it


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## MattHN (Aug 8, 2009)

this stuff sounds interesting ! luckily my mum has horses and my dad works in a saldalry/ feed shop so it shouldnt be hard to locate lol has anyone tried asking the shops to get a bag or two in as i think many equestrian shops would be willing to get in a product for you and afterall it is useful ... maybe it would be worth listing the different names ? or descriptions to help people i would do that but beens as i havent used it i wouldnt be a good source of information ! lol


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## Lord Monty (Jul 1, 2009)

For me, using oat bran or wheat bran is a bad idea. It is very very sensitive to moulding in contact with a *humid atmosphere* and is incredibly dusty when dry. Also, I breed my own feeder insects and can not imagine the pest problem this would cause! Sorry for negativity but can not see why anyone feels the need to try this? Haven't kept beardies for years but washed and dried playsand contains no dust and is more natural.

why would your bearded dragon tank be a humid atmosphere no bearded dragon viv should be humid!!!!!!!:whistling2:


and ben you going to take that hide away from your beardie they really dont need them and there not good for them!: victory:


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## Ninjaaa23 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lord Monty said:


> For me, using oat bran or wheat bran is a bad idea. It is very very sensitive to moulding in contact with a *humid atmosphere* and is incredibly dusty when dry. Also, I breed my own feeder insects and can not imagine the pest problem this would cause! Sorry for negativity but can not see why anyone feels the need to try this? Haven't kept beardies for years but washed and dried playsand contains no dust and is more natural.
> 
> why would your bearded dragon tank be a humid atmosphere no bearded dragon viv should be humid!!!!!!!:whistling2:
> 
> ...


well all the people who have tried it beg to differ
its dusty when u first put it in but after half an hour its fine
beardie vivs shouldnt be humid so it wouldnt be in a high humidity atmosphere anyways


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

incase it helps a 20k sack deeply filled four 4 x 2 x 2 vivs and four 3 x 18 x 18 vivs here with some spare for bugs too.

ours dont have a brand name on them it just says 'bran', the wheat bran is labelled up 'wheat bran'.

i am happy to get a sack and split it sending it out in carbboard boxes but have no idea how much postage would cost.


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## Ben-f (Mar 7, 2009)

i wonder how much postage would be on a 20kg sack??


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## Lord Monty (Jul 1, 2009)

*Originally Posted by Lord Monty *** 
_*For me, using oat bran or wheat bran is a bad idea. It is very very sensitive to moulding in contact with a humid atmosphere and is incredibly dusty when dry. Also, I breed my own feeder insects and can not imagine the pest problem this would cause! Sorry for negativity but can not see why anyone feels the need to try this? Haven't kept beardies for years but washed and dried playsand contains no dust and is more natural.*_


_sorry all of that WASNT me i was copy and pasting it thats why i was asking why they had a humid viv_
_also it shouldnt be dusty!!!_
_i cannot WAIT to use this on my beardies!!!!!_


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## TheDoctor (Dec 16, 2009)

I would have more luck trying to find the holy Grail or the lost city of gold than this stuff - twenty phone calls later and the responses range from 'what's that then ' to ' we sell hay !' - does anyone know if broad bran does the same thing as I ain't buying a 20 kg bag for me to eat !!! 

any one in the west midlands found any ?

I might stick to kitchen towel - I am
sure asda know what that is 

lee


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

TheDoctor said:


> I would have more luck trying to find the holy Grail or the lost city of gold than this stuff - twenty phone calls later and the responses range from 'what's that then ' to ' we sell hay !' - does anyone know if broad bran does the same thing as I ain't buying a 20 kg bag for me to eat !!!
> 
> any one in the west midlands found any ?
> 
> ...


PMFSL :lol2:

It is obv that good its like gold dust :whistling2:


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## TheDoctor (Dec 16, 2009)

Gemstone Dragons said:


> PMFSL :lol2:
> 
> It is obv that good its like gold dust :whistling2:


I am serious, I might as well be asking if they sell tartan coloured paint or left handed screw drivers (which apparently you CAN get! )

Lee - oat bran virgin ..... Still


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

I am told broad bran is the same stuff, if it helps in describing it down the phone it is used fo horses with tummy upsets/colic.

I am by the dartford bridge and can get 20k bags £5.50 for you but have no idea on courier cost sorry.


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## Ninjaaa23 (Jan 22, 2010)

TheDoctor said:


> I am serious, I might as well be asking if they sell tartan coloured paint or left handed screw drivers (which apparently you CAN get! )
> 
> Lee - oat bran virgin ..... Still


ricks livefood sells wheat bran i got enough to fill my viv twice for about £10


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## Phil_n (Feb 12, 2010)

TheDoctor said:


> I am serious, I might as well be asking if they sell tartan coloured paint or left handed screw drivers (which apparently you CAN get! )
> 
> Lee - oat bran virgin ..... Still


I live in Telford so right by you, I ahvent found bulk yet but we have a shop called Julian Graves and there are a few dotted around. They sell 500g bags for just over a quid, so not cheap if you want to buy 20kg but once youve filled a viv it wouldnt cost too much just to keep it topped up.

Also in the Newport area there is a horse place called wynstay and another out in oswestry which im waiting to hear back from.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

We've just started using bran in some of our bearded dragon setups in the shop. Anyone who wants to see it in the Cardiff area is welcome to have a look and see what they think.

We spoke to our specialist reptile vet first, and he said they couldn't see any reason why it would not be safe, and should be digestable by lizards if any was consumed. He did express a concern with the possibility of mould/bacteria growing if it gets wet, or is not cleaned out regular, so we are keeping water, salad and mealworms on large garden slabs from the garden centre (stone slate), and obviously it needs to be spot cleaned & maintained. As my vet has given me the go ahead I'm quite happy to start using it, but will be reporting back to them, as they're very interested in seeing how it goes - as they get many beardies in with impaction.

Obviously mould may be a problem, but the environment should not be humid to begin with, if no water is spilled in it, and faeces are spot cleaned daily, I really don't see how it could get that wet, but I'll wait and see of course! The main advantage to this over absolutely anything else on the market for me is that the vet has confirmed that even if the beardies eat it, it will be digestable for them.

If it works out well we will be recommending it to customers - but we'll see how it works over the next few months first. Customers very often want something that's "natural" looking yet safe. I use lino in most of my other vivs which is certainly safe but even the most neutral ones don't look that natural.

A 20kg bag here from the local horse stockist costs around £9 (and seems completely dust free to me? Less dust than in a bag of bark chippings specifically for reptiles anyway) - there are at least 3-4 suppliers within 10 miles of Cardiff so people in South Wales should be able to find it fairly easy if that helps anyone


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## Skunk (Apr 11, 2010)

Ah cool! This looks very interesting, and your beardies certainly look very happy 

I've seen maize (ground dried sweetcorn) being used as its small pellets and digestible, but absorbs waste pretty well, so bacteria growth easily spread?

Will have to give this a try next time I change my substrate!


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

Athravan said:


> We've just started using bran in some of our bearded dragon setups in the shop. Anyone who wants to see it in the Cardiff area is welcome to have a look and see what they think.
> 
> We spoke to our specialist reptile vet first, and he said they couldn't see any reason why it would not be safe, and should be digestable by lizards if any was consumed. He did express a concern with the possibility of mould/bacteria growing if it gets wet, or is not cleaned out regular, so we are keeping water, salad and mealworms on large garden slabs from the garden centre (stone slate), and obviously it needs to be spot cleaned & maintained. As my vet has given me the go ahead I'm quite happy to start using it, but will be reporting back to them, as they're very interested in seeing how it goes - as they get many beardies in with impaction.
> 
> ...


Brilliant thanks for the info 

I have 4 aprox 12" girls temp sharing a viv at the moment and as their is more poo than normal being spot cleaned it is starting to smell a little, my new vivs will be completed soon so they will be back to pairs (and 1 couriered to her new home) and it will be fine again.

I am doing another whole viv change tomorrow (its been a few months anyway) and it just shows my decision to keep any grown on babies i breed on Lino for ease of cleaning is right - good job most adults are kept in pairs max but thought i would share this info :2thumb:


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

Sorry to resurrect a month-old thread but one of the users on here, woodrott, has voiced their concerns that oat bran is dangerous to beardies and should never be given... I figured I would voice his concerns for him and relay him back with an answer :whistling2:


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

Ophexis said:


> Sorry to resurrect a month-old thread but one of the users on here, woodrott, has voiced their concerns that oat bran is dangerous to beardies and should never be given... I figured I would voice his concerns for him and relay him back with an answer :whistling2:


Ive seen this also but locusts are fed on wheat bran (I use wheat not oat) and if the beardie eats these then whats the difference


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

SteveCourty said:


> Ive seen this also but locusts are fed on wheat bran (I use wheat not oat) and if the beardie eats these then whats the difference


I'm fighting a losing battle on another thread defending this stuff lol, I'm just gonna back off slowly and let them duke it out. I can't be arsed arguing with a hard-headed dilbert today :lol2:


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

Ophexis said:


> I'm fighting a losing battle on another thread defending this stuff lol, I'm just gonna back off slowly and let them duke it out. I can't be arsed arguing with a hard-headed dilbert today :lol2:


My beardie has never seemed happier since I moved him onto this stuff so im certainly not going to say its bad


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

SteveCourty said:


> My beardie has never seemed happier since I moved him onto this stuff so im certainly not going to say its bad


So help defend me! :devil: Lol nah, I'll just leave them to it, I can't be bothered to start an argument today


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## Ninjaaa23 (Jan 22, 2010)

see on that nutrition chart thingy it says wheat bran is bad for them:hmm:


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

Yes but they dont put on a bib and eat it do they! also look in the next tub of crixs locusts mealies morios that you get and tell me what it is there fed on?


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

hi there

found this threadtheres a part about bran
look for the red parts listed
would this aply to anyone

Nutrition Content


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## Ninjaaa23 (Jan 22, 2010)

SteveCourty said:


> Yes but they dont put on a bib and eat it do they! also look in the next tub of crixs locusts mealies morios that you get and tell me what it is there fed on?


dont get me wrong i love the stuff and its the sub i use
was just wondering why its so bad
but yep exactly lol beardies dont exactly munch on the substrate


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

Ninjaaa23 said:


> dont get me wrong i love the stuff and its the sub i use
> was just wondering why its so bad
> but yep exactly lol beardies dont exactly munch on the substrate


Ive spoke to several people whom I trust there opinions and they all see no issues with it. Id like to see someone with some evidence rather than just saying dont use it a website says not to. If a website can say barry chuckle died in a brothel and make people believe it then I dont trust all I can read


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## _Ben_ (Feb 27, 2010)

SteveCourty said:


> Ive spoke to several people whom I trust there opinions and they all see no issues with it. Id like to see someone with some evidence rather than just saying dont use it a website says not to. If a website can say barry chuckle died in a brothel and make people believe it then I dont trust all I can read


 
barry chuckle died! in a brothel! oh deary me

R.I.P. Barry Chuckle....


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

woodrott said:


> hi there
> 
> found this threadtheres a part about bran
> look for the red parts listed
> ...


my concern is wheat bran and oat bran can get mixed up by some people
Ive seen the two mixed in my local farm shop as horse feed

what my point is and its only my opinion that's what this forum is for opinions

there's no perfect substrate every one has it problems

you find the best that works for you

here at F&I UK and at F&I USA we would only recommend paper towel
as loose substrate of any type can be problematic more with babies and sub adults

this is only our opinion
but ha what would we know were just one of many dragon breeders


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

Thanks Woodrott for bringing this food chart to my attention - i said at the start everything had a downside we just hadn't found it yet.

I have read the chart and it says using bran as a food source is bad due to high Phosperous levels.

It also says right at the start that livefood is high in Phosperous levels (i would imagine a link as they eat the bran) and this should be counter balanced with veggies low in phosperous and higher in calcium etc.

Personally my beardies have never eaten their bran and their all kept in 2 large stacks in my living room so viewable all the time, i am not too worried as they do not eat it as a food substance and the little they could digest accidentally is nothing compared to the high Phosperous levels in their livefood which i am already counter balancing with a good veg diet.

I would however advise anyone using this keep an eye on their pet, if they were to start eating it obv it would become a problem.

Please do continue the discussion as it is how we all learn :2thumb:


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

So basically, it is only a real problem when the beardie decides its substrate is something to be ingested rather than its provided food. Given the track record for intelligence-challenged dragons, I'd say keeping a close eye on them is sound advice and if you are doing, then there's no reason not to stick them on bran, and removing them if something untoward happens : victory:


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

I agree completely with this as it applies to all substrates and is pure common sense if your pet starts eating any substrate you remove it


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

These parts were what i picked up on from the link.......


The following information was gathered with the help of the USDA Nutrient Database. *Ca*  represents the ratio of calcium to phosphorus. To provide a balanced diet, the Ca ratio must be taken into account, as high levels of phosphorus can block calcium conversion.​
Most live feeders are high in phosphorus, so the best way to level the playing field is to offer veggies with high Ca ratios. If you continually offer foods that are have more phosphorus than calcium then you could have problems later on. This is where a good calcium supplement comes into play. 


*Food Item*​ *Ca*​ *Protein*​ *Fat*​ *Fiber*​ *Sugar*​ *Water*​ *Notes*​
*Bran, Wheat (substrate)* 1:73​ 15.6%​ 4.3%​ 42.8%​ 10%​ High phosphorus and fiber

Therefore should never be used as part of a veg diet - choose other vegetables higher in calcium to balance the Phosperous level in livefood/any bran they accidentally eat.

Remember also bran is not used as part of their diet, it only becomes this when they start eating it.


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## Simone1989 (Jan 14, 2009)

I've had my beardie on newspaper as a baby...then sand which I found really easy to clean! I tried wood chip once but it was moist at first so I had to keep the viv open to let the steam out...i found sand the best one for me..._ I use a sieve to get any left over locust legs or poo out and change it when it starts to pong....Alfie love digging it about and although it gets it the runners I just hoover it out...SIMPLE!_


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Gemstone Dragons said:


> I have read the chart and it says using bran as a food source is bad due to high Phosperous levels.
> 
> It also says right at the start that livefood is high in Phosperous levels (i would imagine a link as they eat the bran) and this should be counter balanced with veggies low in phosperous and higher in calcium etc.



The phosphorus level is not really the main problem with this substrate, it is the fact that it contains high levels of phytic acid which is a mobile calcium binder. As such free dietary calcium will not be absorbed by the body in the presence of this compound. Which I suspect many will agree is not a particularly good thing.

Do the reptiles need to eat it to get the negative impact?
- The answer to this is no, at least not directly. IF your livefood eat the bran (yes and this includes everyone who feeds their insects this as part of their gutloading regime) then the binding effect will be passed on to the reptile.

Does this mean that bran is not a good substrate?
- This is opinion of course, but I would suggest that it certainly has down sides, and its upside (if I have read correctly through the thread) is its nice smell? Perhaps things don't balance...

Andy


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## Simone1989 (Jan 14, 2009)

Oh yeah forgot to add wood chips where hard when trying to spot clean lol!


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

GlasgowGecko said:


> The phosphorus level is not really the main problem with this substrate, it is the fact that it contains high levels of phytic acid which is a mobile calcium binder. As such free dietary calcium will not be absorbed by the body in the presence of this compound. Which I suspect many will agree is not a particularly good thing.
> 
> Do the reptiles need to eat it to get the negative impact?
> - The answer to this is no, at least not directly. IF your livefood eat the bran (yes and this includes everyone who feeds their insects this as part of their gutloading regime) then the binding effect will be passed on to the reptile.
> ...


The smell is a bonus yes but the main upside o it in my opinion is the chanc for your beardie to still dig and simulate natural behaviours when they dig down to sleep whilst getting rid of the serious issues that sand can have. I went from sand to this as part of the natural look and havent had any issues. Hes seemed much happier on it tbh.


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

GlasgowGecko said:


> The phosphorus level is not really the main problem with this substrate, it is the fact that it contains high levels of phytic acid which is a mobile calcium binder. As such free dietary calcium will not be absorbed by the body in the presence of this compound. Which I suspect many will agree is not a particularly good thing.
> 
> Do the reptiles need to eat it to get the negative impact?
> - The answer to this is no, at least not directly. IF your livefood eat the bran (yes and this includes everyone who feeds their insects this as part of their gutloading regime) then the binding effect will be passed on to the reptile.
> ...


So it stops calcium being absobed into the animal if it is eaten or given through livefood?

The pro's for me personally were not only the smell and look but the fact my beardies could dig and behave naturally without sands impaction risk.

What confuzes me a little is that all livefood brought online or from a shop is boxed with bran so has injested it, obv i breed my own livefood, my roaches are not kept on any substrate at all so would avoid this problem and i would like to learn more about it if you could provide me with more information please?


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Ophexis said:


> So basically, it is only a real problem when the beardie decides its substrate is something to be ingested rather than its provided food. Given the track record for intelligence-challenged dragons, I'd say keeping a close eye on them is sound advice and if you are doing, then there's no reason not to stick them on bran, and removing them if something untoward happens : victory:


yes as Ive stated do whats good for you

but note if your using bran then fine if that's what you like

but there's more of a chance of a dragon digesting some when eating there live food and i can see it getting mixed up with there greens
as its very dusty and light maybe im wrong but i would think there eating more than you think

so a point of more calcium in there diet mite be a good idea??? or may be some high calcium live food

andy is the one to ask would upping the calcium counteract the acid or not??? in some way???
or would it be a waist of time
then making bran a not to hot substrate


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

woodrott said:


> yes as Ive stated do whats good for you
> 
> but note if your using bran then fine if that's what you like
> 
> ...


I for 1 will defo be upping the calcium in mines diet, like i said discussion with different opinions/thoughts is how we learn :2thumb:

I feed mines greens in a large deep exo bowl raised on the paving slab end of their viv so bran does not get mixed in and generally this is where the roaches i put in run to hide down the cracks there, i did this as it was easier but in hindsight it could be part of the reason why my beardies on bran is working for me and i would defo advise it to anyone else using it as a precaution.


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

Im feeding some dandelions in his diet at the moment and thats high in calcium so was a good move without realising 

Ive also started on nutri grubs and will get some butterworms when I get chance. All my Locusts are brought up by me so are fed on high calcium foods anyway so guess this should help things


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## Ninjaaa23 (Jan 22, 2010)

oovavoo


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

Ninjaaa23 said:


> oovavoo


WHAT...ON EARTH?! 
It's finally happened ladies and gentlemen. We've killed him. 
I request the highest of fives! :lol2:


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## auntiesocial84 (Oct 7, 2009)

my beardie was on wheat bran but he made such a mess as when i went to check on him in the mornin the wheat would be stuck to the glass and loads of it in his water bowl lol, so i took it out and put in lino but he missed makin a bed for himself so i put some in under his hammock as thats where he sleeps. i dont see him eatin any but i do know when hes been chasin the locusts as he gets little bits of wheat on his face lol


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## Ninjaaa23 (Jan 22, 2010)

Ophexis said:


> WHAT...ON EARTH?!
> It's finally happened ladies and gentlemen. We've killed him.
> I request the highest of fives! :lol2:


you can tkill me im the ginger bread man 
haha 
runs into the sunset jumping happily into the air


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

woodrott said:


> andy is the one to ask would upping the calcium counteract the acid or not??? in some way???
> or would it be a waist of time
> then making bran a not to hot substrate


This is a question that is almost impossible for me to answer without testing it. I don't know what volume of phytic acid (or cereal phytates) binds (or inhibits) what volume of calcium. This is clearly not trivial. It *could* be possible to 'overload the system' and give enough calcium to mean that not all in inhibited. However this seems like a really difficult thing to do.

I would never consider this a potential substrate for any of my animals. The reason for this is the fact that the 'smell' (or plant odour) which has been so documented throughout the thread, may stimulate a feeding response in the animal. Which of course is not a desired trait.

As for the 'digging', there are a variety of other ways to do this also...

Oh, and lets not forget guys, Bearded dragons are not capable of 'enjoyment' so lets not invoke this as a reason for keeping any type of substrate...

Andy


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> This is a question that is almost impossible for me to answer without testing it. I don't know what volume of phytic acid (or cereal phytates) binds (or inhibits) what volume of calcium. This is clearly not trivial. It *could* be possible to 'overload the system' and give enough calcium to mean that not all in inhibited. However this seems like a really difficult thing to do.
> 
> I would never consider this a potential substrate for any of my animals. The reason for this is the fact that the 'smell' (or plant odour) which has been so documented throughout the thread, may stimulate a feeding response in the animal. Which of course is not a desired trait.
> 
> ...


well thank you Andy for your input
this mite be the first time Ive agreed with you 100%
on our many encounters
in my opinion i think the down sides of bran out way the good points
if there's any????
as we have said before try and give the facts and let people make there own minds up its all we can do

but the calcium amount to counteract the acid would be a good paper 
even through it mite just be a lot of time waisted??? or as you said nearly impossible


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

as a final note tonight as im going to bed

it should be the aim of all reptile keepers to keep there reptiles 
in the healthy condition that is possible
if any substrate or food for that matter has a gray area then its your duty
as a reptile keeper to solve the problem or keep away from it until you can

at the end of the day we all wont whats best for our reptiles
and forums like this one are here to help us make an informed opinion
on the welfare of our reptiles

night night peeps


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

woodrott said:


> well thank you Andy for your input
> this mite be the first time Ive agreed with you 100%
> on our many encounters
> in my opinion i think the down sides of bran out way the good points
> ...


umm shame as I thought the answer had finally been found. Id like something that can be dug but sand has too many issues. Im now going to look at a few things see what I can find


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

is sand still so much of an issue if all live feeding is done out of the viv???

oh, and I'm new here by the way, hello and all that..)


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## arnie23 (Jan 3, 2010)

stuckmojo said:


> is sand still so much of an issue if all live feeding is done out of the viv???
> 
> oh, and I'm new here by the way, hello and all that..)


:welcome: for some rep keepers it is ive though i havent seen one of my leos been impacted or had any problems iam sure you would rather be safe than sorry seen as rep vet bills can cost ££££


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

Absolutely, better to be safe every time, and not only because of vet bills..

Its just something I'm trying to work out, because I think its good for them to be able to dig and burrow a bit, and I've noticed before that they try to do this on most flat substrates. I was thinking that if the main danger-area for impaction is when feeding, the risk would be hugely reduced.

I always had the habit of feeding any live foods when they were out of the vivs anyway, so if a dragon was always feeding out of the viv, what other of its behaviors would be an impaction-risk??

By the way, I'm not asking because I'm argumentative, its because I genuinly dont know, and obviously I need to.

And are younger dragons more at general risk of impaction than older? It seems that its "sometimes ok" for older dragons to live on loose substrate, but not younger dragons? Why is this??


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

They say older dragons may be ok as their less likely to miss food getting a mouthful of sand than babies.

I use oatbran instead of sand and have it in a sandpit at 1 end of my vivs, they can bed down for the night but 2/3 of the viv is still lino so easy to clean and fine for feeding salad etc :2thumb:


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

I was just reading your thread about bran actually, thats what prompted my questions..

So, babies are more likely to miss a mouthfull of food?? Its the still the eating thing, so take feeding in the viv out of the equation, and the risk is reduced.... But by how much???

Aside from food/feeding, what are the other risks with sand?? sharp objects in it?? Mould/Damp?? Any effect on temps?? 

I was really liking the sound of the bran though, its the risks of damp/mould that are giving me doubts, spot-cleaning isnt a problem as I work from home, but I always liked to keep a small shallow bit of water in there, and usually a fake plant that I could mist for them to drink the drops from....

I think that rules out bran for me, although I can see that in a highly water-controlled viv it would probably work a treat...

So then, other dangers of sand?? Anyone??


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

stuckmojo said:


> I was just reading your thread about bran actually, thats what prompted my questions..
> 
> So, babies are more likely to miss a mouthfull of food?? Its the still the eating thing, so take feeding in the viv out of the equation, and the risk is reduced.... But by how much???
> 
> ...


 
look at it this way

there's absolutely no benefit for the dragon to be on any loose substrate

any loose substrate is only for the owners benefit
looks good , smells nice and so on

why put your reptile at any risk at all when there's tiles , lino , paper towel

Ive even changed Andy at hades to paper towel
hes a section on his web site thanking me for converting him

if well known breeders like Andy hades , Gav Nottingham dragons , my self , fire and ice dragons UK[G&G dragons] find it safe why wont people listen


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

Thanks for that, interesting comment.

What I'm actually trying ascertain is exactly what these risks are.... It seem from observation that the constant scratching at a surface, trying to dig into something that wont give, is a indication of an animal wanting to dig or burrow?? If not, please say so as I'm by no means a professional, or breeder, or vet, or anything animal-related. I'm merely trying to apply common-sense.

animal tries to dig quite a lot, cant do it, keeps trying = frustrated and stressed animal.. Or not??

Also, I'm not actually asking for my "visual" benefit, as you can see earlier I listed aesthetics as the least important reason for a loose substrate. And I never mentioned the smell, which to me is a bizarre reason to choose anything, unless you are choosing the winner of a "smelling-nice" competetition.

So, what other times? Apart from when feeding, would a dragon be likely to take in a mouth-full of loose substrate?? I guess that's what I'm trying to get an answer to.

Another point, the "owners benefit" comment... It could just as easily be argued that a flat-substrate is for the benefit of the owner, dont many people use it because its undeniably easier to clean.. "easier" meaning less effort?


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

I personally wouldnt use ran if you keep water in the viv or spray inside it - i know a breeder had to take water bowls out as they filled with bran.

If theres no water n the viv it doesnt go mouldy or get mites and can be cleaned with a cat litter tray scoop.

I see your point about digging being part of their natural behaviour and when on just lino yes mine get stressed being unable to dig showing stress marks on their tums and getting darker, this is solved and they look happier when allowed to dig their bed for the night - this is just my personal opinion and experience with my own dragons though.

By reducing my floorspace to just 1/3rd bran i feel i have given them the best of both worlds, their food and toilets are in the cool end on the lino so feeding and cleaning is easier/safer.

The substrate debate is 1 that will go on a long time and i feel is a personal decision lol

Be aware the downsides of them accidentally eating any bran are also there from the bran eaten by the livefood their fed on too so unless you buy livefood not kept on or fed bran you are having to take it anyway.

Personally my livefood is bred by myself and has been fed and kept on no bran at all so my beardies are eating less through their livefood than most pets anyway and i make sure suplimentation is given and foods higher in calcium are fed to try and balance this out further.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

stuckmojo said:


> Thanks for that, interesting comment.
> 
> What I'm actually trying ascertain is exactly what these risks are.... It seem from observation that the constant scratching at a surface, trying to dig into something that wont give, is a indication of an animal wanting to dig or burrow?? If not, please say so as I'm by no means a professional, or breeder, or vet, or anything animal-related. I'm merely trying to apply common-sense.
> 
> ...


 
shit Ive just typed a page of answers then deleted them
give me a call 01244382780 or pm me your number i will call you


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

Gemstone Dragons said:


> I personally wouldnt use ran if you keep water in the viv or spray inside it - i know a breeder had to take water bowls out as they filled with bran.
> 
> If theres no water n the viv it doesnt go mouldy or get mites and can be cleaned with a cat litter tray scoop.
> 
> ...


Another interesting one, thanks for all this guys... 

I was actually just thinking that half slate, half sand would be worth considering. I totally see the point about how you control their water, I did try that once, but knowing they actually had no access to water apart from me didn't really sit well.

It definitely seems like a very grey area, to most of us anyway, I'm still not completely decided, the only things I am absolutely sure of are,

1 younger dragons need to be on carpet/tile/kitchen roll. This seems to be without question as far as common sense is concerned.

2 If you feed in the viv, then sand is automatically out, Bran is a better choice, but live food should still be controlled.

3 If you dont feed in the viv, but do like to give constant access to water, then sand is worth considering as long as its "safe" ie, clean, additive-free, no sharps etc. It seems the logical trade off is "animals can dig, therefore be less stressed, versus possible intake of substrate, lessened by feeding outside the viv"

4 Calci-Sand is the devils dandruff

5 Bran smells nice and would win a "smelling-nice" competition.

*edited to add* I just realised I wasnt exactly truthful with the "nothing to do with animals" comment, I used to work with sharks in Mauritius, and its just been pointed out to me that I was applying the same "behavioral environment analysis" to dragons as I would to certain shark species. Thats why, when I just re-read my posts, some parts are a bit "lectury".. *made up word*



I thank you!!!


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

stuckmojo said:


> Another interesting one, thanks for all this guys...
> 
> I was actually just thinking that half slate, half sand would be worth considering. I totally see the point about how you control their water, I did try that once, but knowing they actually had no access to water apart from me didn't really sit well.
> 
> ...


 
my offer still stands
gem stone called me and we were still talking an hour later
i think she found it interesting


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

dude I didn't see that, and I'll definitely take you up on it.

Something else I neglected to mention, is that I dont even own any dragons anymore!...) Although I am very slowly and carefully on the lookout for something "a bit spesh".. Ideally 3 somethings....

Anyway, if your offer is a "constantly upstanding" one..(sounds rude, dont mean it to) then I'll take you up on that when I'm closer to finding what I'm after.


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

Mark is always willing to help anyone and i think our last chat was more like 2 hours than 1 hun :lol2:

His views are very valid and he has alot of experience behind him also, i learnt alot and he helped immensely with advice on my new feeding regime and clearing up my questions on worming.


It is defo worth giving him a call and having a chat, then still make up your own mind if you want, either way you will learn alot as i did :2thumb:


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

stuckmojo said:


> dude I didn't see that, and I'll definitely take you up on it.
> 
> Something else I neglected to mention, is that I dont even own any dragons anymore!...) Although I am very slowly and carefully on the lookout for something "a bit spesh".. Ideally 3 somethings....
> 
> Anyway, if your offer is a "constantly upstanding" one..(sounds rude, dont mean it to) then I'll take you up on that when I'm closer to finding what I'm after.


its an open phone for any one to call me
best time is after 9pm any night any day
if your not beaten to it by some one else


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

Sh*t I need to stop talking...

Another point before I try to actually do some work.

No loose substrate in the viv is definitely safer, without question. 

The inability to dig/burrow can cause stress in some dragons.. therefore, ability to dig= stress reduction.

So, no substrate= safer, but possibly more stressful alternative...... When phrased like that, doesn't it sound a bit "health and safety"??????

There'll be "health and safety dragon patrol" next, little grumpy-looking dragons carrying clipboards and wandering round other vivs measuring the distance between plug-sockets etc......))))))))

I'll have to make a stop-motion cartoon of that, should be better than my last one, "Winston Whelk's Hollywood Adventures".....

anyway......


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## balmybaldwin (Mar 17, 2010)

I've got my 7 month old beardie on 1/2 slate and half bran for the last 2 months, and also keep a small water dish in the viv (on the slate(cool) end)

Many will say this is too young to move a beardie on to loose substrate, but he was clearly distressed not being able to dig, and would spend hours scrping away at the slate floor he was on before bed(which quite frankly drove me nuts) so I waited until he was about 12" long, and then moved him on to it when I had the week off and could keep an eye on him - with the intention of removing it if he started eating too much.

Typically he instantly decided he didn't want to dig and generally sulked as his viv had changed, but within a day or 2 he was digging a lot. 
Other than the odd tasting lick he didn't eat the stuff right from the beginning.

So far I have seen no sign of bran and watermixing - perhaps because Oscar never seems interested in the water.

Up until now it has been a good move, Oscar digs every night, and has sculpted himself a lunar park out of bran, so he certainly seems to enjoy it. And any time I have the viv open, he loves to throw some of it out for me to clean up:bash:

Interestingly I have noticed one change in his behaviour - If he gets too hot on his basking spot, rather than running down to the cool end like he used to he now diggs himself a little pit so only his head is really visible. I've checked the temps under the surface of the bran, and it is significantly cooler, and I guess this is something they will resort to in the wild when no shade is available.

I really can't see any reason at the moment why I would stop using it.

Having said that, whilst it looks and smells good, it is not a natural substrate for a beardie so their's no point pretending it is - however neither is pure sand or anything else people use indoors, natural habitiat tends to be hard packed soil/sand mixture, tree roots and loose areas of soil, sand and leaves (presumably where they dig).

Hope this helps your decision - I too had to think long and hard about this!

Ed


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

I,m thinking a similar way, with a slight preference for sand over bran due to the moisture issue.. So far, its seems a split of slate/loose substrate is the way to go. 

With the addition of a reptile carpet underneath all of it probably, both for insulation and to protect any accidental rock-crushery..)

Its still undecided, but doubtless I'll have thought about it more by the actually see some that I want..)

thanks for your input people..)


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## croydonreptiles (Dec 9, 2009)

*bran*

hi 
just spent alot of time reading this thread.
what a nightmare.
but very good thread
cheers


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