# jaguar carpets



## yellow_python (May 14, 2007)

Can anyone help me with the genetics and history of the morph.

Who was the originator? 

When a jag is bred to normal coastal i understand that 50% with be jag and 50% normal. So why do people have 50% jag or 75% jag. Surely it either is or isnt? Theres something im missing but im not sure what


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## charliet (Mar 24, 2007)

yellow_python said:


> Can anyone help me with the genetics and history of the morph.
> 
> Who was the originator?
> 
> When a jag is bred to normal coastal i understand that 50% with be jag and 50% normal. So why do people have 50% jag or 75% jag. Surely it either is or isnt? Theres something im missing but im not sure what


The first jag was bred by Jan Eric Engell, and is a co-dominant coastal morph, which means that there is a 50% chance of each offspring from a jag to normal breeding being a jag. The normal offspring are referred to as jaguar siblings, or 'sibs'.

The percentages that are attached to animals are the result of the morph being bred into other subspecies and species of carpets. So a 75% Jungle Jaguar is a Coastal Jungle cross, that is said to have 75% jungle influence; i.e.:

Coastal Jag x Jungle = 50% jungle Jags + normal siblings
50% Jungle Jag x Jungle = 75% Jungle Jags + normal siblings
75% Jungle Jag x Jungle = 88% Jungle Jags + normal siblings


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## yellow_python (May 14, 2007)

Thanks for the response: victory:

I presume its a bit like boa crosses with regards to locailty that its not much of a problem to cross coastal and jungle carpets? I think its a good idea people put what % the cross is so everyone knows exacty whats what.


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## Chimp (Sep 23, 2006)

but is it ok to breed the offspring to the parents


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## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

yes.....


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## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

I have a Caramel coastal if I were to breed her to a Coastal Jag, what would I get?

25% Caramel
25% Jag
25% Caramel Jag (is this possible?)
25% normal


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## Chimp (Sep 23, 2006)

dunno m8 but 

are diamond, jaguar, and jungle etc 
morphs or species ?


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## jonnydotcom (Sep 8, 2006)

charliet said:


> The first jag was bred by Jan Eric Engell, and is a co-dominant coastal morph, which means that there is a 50% chance of each offspring from a jag to normal breeding being a jag. The normal offspring are referred to as jaguar siblings, or 'sibs'.
> 
> The percentages that are attached to animals are the result of the morph being bred into other subspecies and species of carpets. So a 75% Jungle Jaguar is a Coastal Jungle cross, that is said to have 75% jungle influence; i.e.:
> 
> ...


At last a thread about carpet %'s
what would you get if you bred a 75% jungle jag sib(female) to a jungle?


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## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

88% jungles half jags half normals


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## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

Chimp said:


> dunno m8 but
> 
> are diamond, jaguar, and jungle etc
> morphs or species ?


Diamond and Jungle are species, jag is a morph.


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## charliet (Mar 24, 2007)

bladeblaster said:


> I have a Caramel coastal if I were to breed her to a Coastal Jag, what would I get?
> 
> 25% Caramel
> 25% Jag
> ...


Yes, that would be right. Caramel coastals are co-dominant.



Chimp said:


> dunno m8 but
> 
> are diamond, jaguar, and jungle etc
> morphs or species ?


Diamonds and jungles are subspecies of morelia spilota (morelia spilota spilota and morelia spilota cheynei respectively). Jaguars are a morph of the coastal carpet (morelia spilota mcdowelli).



jonnydotcom said:


> At last a thread about carpet %'s
> what would you get if you bred a 75% jungle jag sib(female) to a jungle?


Well, a 75% jungle jag sib is 75% jungle and 25% coastal. Breeding that to a jungle would increase the % jungle blood by half, so 88% jungle, 12% coastal.



bladeblaster said:


> 88% jungles half jags half normals


Yes to the 88% jungle, but no to the jags/normals. Jonnydotcom was asking about jaguar siblings rather than visual jaguars.


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## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

ah missed the sibs bit.

So is a Caramel Jag possible? If so are there many about what sort of money do they fetch?

I bought a caramel coastal basically because she was gorgeous, but would like to get a male to breed with her. I'm not in it just for the cash, I wold liek to produce some nice carpets for my own collection, but I wouldn't be able to keep back all of the offspring so an idea of what I should ask for them would be useful :2thumb:


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## charliet (Mar 24, 2007)

Yup. Paul Harris has some: Caramel Coastal Jaguar


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## ic18 (Jan 19, 2009)

All very confusing...

So what do you get if you:
1. Cross a jungle with an irian jaya?
2. Cross a jungle with a 50% het granite irian jaya?

And don't say a mess!!!

I'm only new to all this with two irian jayas... a friend has a jungle. Just wondered what offspring they might produce... I'm not intending to pair them and also not sure it would produce anything desireable... but just trying to get my head around carpets, carpet crosses, etc...


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## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

A jungle x IJ would be a 50% jungle x IJ

50% het only means that there is a 50% chance its a het, it will either prove out to be 100% het or not het at all, the only way to prove this is to breed to another granite. If you could prove that the het granite was 100% het granite then you would have the following odds:-

75% chance of 50% jungle x IJ
25% chance of 50% jungle x IJ het granite

They would all look 'normal' so you wouldn't know which were het and which weren't meaning you would sell all of the off spring as 50% Jungle x IJ 25% granite, which TBH won't be worth any more than the plain 50% jungle x IJ's from the first scenario.


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## ic18 (Jan 19, 2009)

bladeblaster said:


> A jungle x IJ would be a 50% jungle x IJ
> 
> 50% het only means that there is a 50% chance its a het, it will either prove out to be 100% het or not het at all, the only way to prove this is to breed to another granite. If you could prove that the het granite was 100% het granite then you would have the following odds:-
> 
> ...


So really you gain nothing from this pairing? Or would there be a colour or marking variation?

I would be better off pairing my 50% granite het male irian jaya with my 50% granite het female irian jaya? That way if both carry the granite het, there is a chance of producing some granite irian jayas? Or have I picked it up wrong?

I've seen granite irian jayas and I really do not understand the prices they command... personally they are not my taste!


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## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

if you have 50% het male and female then yes if they both turn out to be het, then you have a 25% chance of producing a granite, but if you don't like them is there much point anyway?


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## ic18 (Jan 19, 2009)

The idea of breeding them for granites is not what appeals... its the idea of learning more about them as a whole and also getting to the stage where I would have the knowledge and ability to be able to get them breeding.

As I said already... I'm very new to all this and already find myself wondering what I'll put in the viv when the pair I have outgrow it in a year or so... reading thru other posts on this forum this seems to be a common problem!


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## ic18 (Jan 19, 2009)

bladeblaster said:


> if you have 50% het male and female then yes if they both turn out to be het, then you have a 25% chance of producing a granite, but if you don't like them is there much point anyway?


Just looking at percentages and so I can understand better... 

Both are 50% het granite... so this means that there is a 50% chance that they carry the het gene?
So one may carry it and therefore be 100% het granite? but you wouldn't know till you breed probably more than once?
The other may not carry it so would just be normal Irian Jaya? so even mating with a 100% het granite would still produce normals? or would these then have the posibility of being het?

And if you had two 100% hets... would they always produce granites? or is there only a chance that they might produce granites?

Sorry for all the questions... it probably seems very basic to someone that knows what they are talking about... On an aside note and not wanting to change the topic of the forum... can you recommend a simple but kind of indepth and worthwhile book on carpets?


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

Who did you buy the het granites off ?


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## ic18 (Jan 19, 2009)

I bought them from Ben in Replite Haven in Dublin, Ireland... he told me that they are and unrelated pair and they came via the UK from Paul Harris in Germany.

As I said... I don't know a whole lot about snakes... and am learning quite a bit from this forum... I have asked around and Ben seems to be probably the most respected guy in Ireland when it comes to reptiles... so I can only take him at his word... and I have no reason to doubt him at the moment!

Personally I can't see much difference between a jungle and an irian jaya in some pics... so I really am a complete novice and bow to people with greater knowledge on the subject (but its not hard to have more knowledge than me!)


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## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

ic18 said:


> Just looking at percentages and so I can understand better...
> 
> Both are 50% het granite... so this means that there is a 50% chance that they carry the het gene?
> So one may carry it and therefore be 100% het granite? but you wouldn't know till you breed probably more than once?
> ...


if one was het and the other wasn't you would get 50% hets and 50% normals. Again though because they would all look normal they would all be classed 50% hets. Obviously this is the breeding scenario yours came from, the breeder bred a normal to a 100% het.

Trouble is you would have to prodcue a visual granite to prove if either of yours was indeed het. If you put the 2 50% hets together, and get a visual granit you will know they are both 100% het. If you don't get any visual granits it doesn't really tell you anything, one or both could still be 100% het. Unless you are really really lucky you really need to breed to a visual granite to prove it out, that way if you don't get any visuals, you would have a pretty good idea it wasn't het, as missing the 50% odds of getting a visual would be very unlikely.


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

Theres alot of diffrince between jungles and IJ

couple of my jungles.


















Some photo of a IJ from Precision reptiles 
Precisionreptiles.com - Precisionreptiles.com


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## ic18 (Jan 19, 2009)

OK... I think I have a little grasp on it... and even if both were 100% het it doesn't necessarily mean that it would produce a visual with each offspring?


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## ic18 (Jan 19, 2009)

And my Irian Jayas



















Please tell me they are Irian Jayas


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

they do look like ij's... thet coler up as they get older.


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## ic18 (Jan 19, 2009)

Thas a relief... so thank you...

And now let me stop hijacking this thread


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## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

ic18 said:


> OK... I think I have a little grasp on it... and even if both were 100% het it doesn't necessarily mean that it would produce a visual with each offspring?


if they were both 100% het then each egg would have a 25% chance of producing a visual granite. So you would be a bit unlucky, but it is possible to have a clutch of all normall looking babies from a het - het breeding.


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## ic18 (Jan 19, 2009)

I don't understand why only 25%? Why would it not be 50% chance?


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## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

because you are dealing with 4 possible genes to make up a pair, the genes you have are

N = Normal G = Granite

they are in the following combination

Male = N - G
Female = N - G

Each animal passes 1 gene from its pair, giving the following possible combinations.

N - N = Normal 
N - G = Het granit
G - N = Het granit
G - G = Visual granit

Normal 25%
Het 50%
Visual 25%

If you put a visual granit with a het you get 50% odds because you have the following combinations

Male = G - G
Female = N - G

G - N Het granit
G - G Visual granit
G - N Het granit
G - G Visual granit

Visual 50%
Het 50%


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## ic18 (Jan 19, 2009)

Thank you... I think that clears it up a little... just wait until I start with my next round of dumb questions! But thank you again!


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

I think this thread has got a bit confusing!

Best way to think of the Jaguar morph is like the pastel morph in Royals.
You simply cannot be 'het for Jag.' The offspring are either visual Jags or Jag siblings (which are essentially just another carpet python.)

As for '50% Het for Granite' this means that a granite carpet has been bred to a normal. Now, ALL offspring will LOOK normal BUT 50% (law of averages) should carry the granite gene. The problem is nobody can visually tell which half carry the gene for granite and which ones are just normal carpets - SO the 50% Het granite is basically a 50/50 chance that it's carrying the gene. Who knows! You may strike lucky and have 2 that are Het for granite! :whistling2:


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## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

Caz said:


> I think this thread has got a bit confusing!
> 
> Best way to think of the Jaguar morph is like the pastel morph in Royals.
> You simply cannot be 'het for Jag.' The offspring are either visual Jags or Jag siblings (which are essentially just another carpet python.)
> ...


Hmm isn't that what I said?



bladeblaster said:


> A jungle x IJ would be a 50% jungle x IJ
> 
> 50% het only means that there is a 50% chance its a het, it will either prove out to be 100% het or not het at all, the only way to prove this is to breed to another granite. If you could prove that the het granite was 100% het granite then you would have the following odds:-
> 
> ...


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

You said a JunglexIJ would be 50% J/IJ cross - correct, BUT when bred to a 100% het granite and assuming the het is a 50/50granite x jungle it will produce (on average) all the young with 66% IJ genes as the granite is an IJ morph.





bladeblaster said:


> A jungle x IJ would be a 50% jungle x IJ
> 
> 50% het only means that there is a 50% chance its a het, it will either prove out to be 100% het or not het at all, the only way to prove this is to breed to another granite. If you could prove that the het granite was 100% het granite then you would have the following odds:-
> 
> ...


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## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

ic18 said:


> All very confusing...
> 
> So what do you get if you:
> 1. Cross a jungle with an irian jaya?
> 2. Cross a jungle with a 50% het granite irian jaya?


 
a jungle x IJ het granite is still a 50% jungle/IJ but will be 25% het granite.

no dif to a 50% jungle jag its 50% jungle/coastal visually jag.

Not sure where you are coming from TBH?


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## Painted lady (Oct 28, 2009)

jag's are the best i think i have a 88% male breedin next year cant wait :flrt: him


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