# Thinking out loud.....Opinions please



## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Hi All,

A few months ago I finally decided to set about getting some frogs. After a decent amount of research I decided that I would go for Red eyes. 

I have a 450 x 450 x 600 zoomed. I am running a mistking and have a jungle dawn and other lighting. I have planted it up, added tropical woodlice and springtails and am waiting for it all to settle in for a few months before adding any livestock to ensure I have the setup correct. I will add a pic below this, still not entirely happy with it and but for a first attempt I think it looks good. I may have a move around at some point depending on how every thing grows in.

Now my issue....

As I said I originally planned for red eyes but since then I keep seeing all the lovely dart frog set ups on here and can feel a swing in direction coming.

I still would really like red eyes but have been told they are strictly nocturnal so I am unlikely to see much of them at all- Is this true? 
I also liked the fact they ate a slightly larger prey so my house wouldn't be filled with fruit flies.

I have been doing lots of research on here and in books and have come to the conclusion, if I decided to go towards darts Auratus or Leucs would be the species most suitable. I realise I would need to raise my humidity to keep these successfully by putting some perspex over the screen top but would I need any other changes?

I have also seen you can feed pin head crickets. Some say these are fine for a staple diet, some say they are not, any advice on this? As I said before, I am not too keen with fruit flies being everywhere in the house.

I think in the long run I will still settle on Red eyes but as I have a few months before I take the plunge I want to ensure I have the right species as these will be with me for the duration, hopefully many years,

Thanks for reading and please give your opinions,

Marc.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I have kept red eyes and truthfully, mine did almost nothing ever in the day. They found a leaf or a piece of bark and they sit there, most often with their eyes closed. If you use a red or blue bulb at night you can see some activity and they are stunning frogs but in all honesty - not that interesting to me. 

If you're looking for an active setup then I can definitely recommend darts. 

As for crickets, my main worry is that if a few are not eaten, they will grow quite quickly in a live planted tank (as they will eat the foliage), so not only will this damage the plants but has a risk of them shedding just once or twice and then being too big for the frogs. Whilst rare, crickets can bite, and frogs have delicate skin and this would worry me. If you have a system designed such as a feeding tub where the crickets are not loose in the enclosure then I think crickets would be more viable - although not all darts will eat them.

I've been feeding my darts at home (currently have 16 dart frogs so a fairly small collection) fruit flies for about 6 months now and I have not had them all over the house or anything - in fact my dart frogs will jump out when they hear me open the tank, hop over to where I feed and will eat voraciously. Some of the fruit flies do wander off inside the tank but very few make it out. In my experience so far fruit flies are more happy to find the top of a leaf where they think they are safe and sit there - they don't actively seek to escape. They will cluster together - usually out in the open on the top of a leaf or branch - and believe that they're in the clear and then a frog will come along... I have also fed some of them very small roaches which are easy to keep contained in a bowl, but some will not take those at all. Remember fruit flies can't actually fly and any access holes that a fruit fly can escape from - a pinhead cricket could get out of too.

Ultimately I think both species are great but if you want something that's active during the day time and has distinct personalities then I would go for darts. If you are happy observing at night or just appreciating their beauty when you wake them up then red eyes are amazing to look at (when not sleeping!). 

Or go crazy and add another setup next to it and have the best of both worlds :whistling2:


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Thank you for your reply,

Hmmm , I may be pushing my luck in getting any more so want to make the right choice.

I wasn't aware fruit flies couldn't fly, very interesting. 

If you don't mind me asking, what darts do you have? I have gone for a taller tank and am keen for them to use all dimensions, are they likely to do this?

Fell like I was all straight in my mind but now I just don't know what direction to take!


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Your viv size is fine for some Tincs, 2 or 3 at most or you could have a group of Leucs, maybe 4 at most.



Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Bro I pretty much agree with the help given above. I don't and have never fed crix,the slight chance of a frog getting bitten,the more obvious chance of plants being munched ,plus a lass that cultures ff for a lot of frogs whom hates crix means a no go for us. As far as your choice in frogs ,well you have to love them ,they could be in your care for years and years,this is your choice. I haven't kept red eyes other tree frogs way back sure,but we do keep a couple or three darts now. 
I'm just in from graft and have been met with a full bore leuc orgy these little guys are serious entertainment,will use all your viv. We also keep auratus,be aware that they can be shy and for the most part require just a bit more cover than you now have,but the viv will grow in. 

I would recommend you move the some of the broms upwards they like light by and large pull those low ones.

Ff: as A. says we utilize mels/ melanogastor(smaller) and hydei (larger) as a staple diet base,these are genetically bred from little stumps of wings to some like turks(a mel) that have wings but can only hop,if you do go the dart route then I would culture both and be good at this before you get any frogs. We have say 14 vivs active and are building out a room full,we don't see ff all over the house either,and we culture alot of flies and feed a good few frogs. Much is to be made of the viv design and it's ability to hold these in situ. An exo is not idea but it can be made to work,that research is over to you I don't use them,so can't help,the ent design is simply better and my homework meant I never went there,thank god!! I had one here to help a mate not for me bro!! One can use tricks like feeding stations to help contain ff.

Choose a frog you are drawn to research that and more, are the best words I can offer

good luck

Stu


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Thanks again for everyone's replies.

I would only want a pair, would rather they have ample room that to squeeze in too many. Not interested in breeding either, would rather worry about keeping them alive first and for most.

I will have a look at moving some of the plants around so thanks for that advice.

Definitely going to do a lot of research before I finally decide on species. I should really stick to what I have originally set the viv up for but think it is only a case of getting the humidity up to make the change for darts.

Not planning any inhabitants until September anyway so plenty of time to decide yet.......


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Your viv is not too far off for putting dart frogs into.
Humidity is also easy to fix if it worries you.
A common fix on exo terras is to remove the mesh from the front half of the lid and replace it with glass.
An even easier fix that I`ve used a lot in the past is to laminate some paper or card and cut it to fit on top of the mesh, this also gives the option of adjusting the amount of humidity in the viv.
Also a discretely placed water dish about an inch deep in among the plants or where ever you want it will allow the frogs to have a soak if they are feeling a bit dry.
This is also an excellent backup in case for some reason you`ve missed misting the viv.
Remember that you do not need 100% humidity, only humid.


Mike


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

frogman955 said:


> Your viv is not too far off for putting dart frogs into.
> Humidity is also easy to fix if it worries you.
> A common fix on exo terras is to remove the mesh from the front half of the lid and replace it with glass.
> An even easier fix that I`ve used a lot in the past is to laminate some paper or card and cut it to fit on top of the mesh, this also gives the option of adjusting the amount of humidity in the viv.
> ...


Great ,thanks Mike.

One thing I did wonder is I was advised to go for a UV bulb as well as a jungle dawn, which I did, so wonder if UV could pass through glass? Do you think just covering 3/4 of the lid would help keep humidity up? or would full cover be needed?

Thanks for the tip RE water bowl, I have a mistking fitted which is misting 4 times a day at the moment for 25secs which I thought sounded a lot but it is maintaining humidity of 60%(according to my combimeter) by doing this.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

The debate rages on about frogs needing UV.
They are not reptiles that sit out in the sun all day long, most of their life is spent on the forest floor amongst the leaf litter.
I don`t have UV in any of my vivs, I make do with supplements.
Most keepers don`t use hygrometers to measure humidity as they are unreliable at best so a waste of money.
I just gauge my substrate etc to let me know how much water is in the viv and that lets me know if there should be any water evaporating from the soil which creates the humidity.
UV doesn`t pass through glass so keep the bulb above the mesh.
There is no real need to cover both halves of the lid as just covering the front half will make a huge difference.


Mike


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

frogman955 said:


> The debate rages on about frogs needing UV.
> They are not reptiles that sit out in the sun all day long, most of their life is spent on the forest floor amongst the leaf litter.
> I don`t have UV in any of my vivs, I make do with supplements.
> Most keepers don`t use hygrometers to measure humidity as they are unreliable at best so a waste of money.
> ...


Great stuff, thank you so much for sharing some experience.

Trying to do everything by the book and quickly learning this is impossible!


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

If sharing my experiences with a newcomer helps them get a good start then I`ve achieved something.
There`s nothing worse than starting out in a hobby and screwing up and not knowing what you`ve done wrong because all it will do is put you off the hobby and we lose someone else.
Going by the book is okay at times.
All I can do is relay what I`ve done because I know what works and what doesn`t.

Mike


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Wingnut2711 said:


> Great ,thanks Mike.
> 
> One thing I did wonder is I was advised to go for a UV bulb as well as a jungle dawn, which I did, so wonder if UV could pass through glass? Do you think just covering 3/4 of the lid would help keep humidity up? or would full cover be needed?
> 
> Thanks for the tip RE water bowl, I have a mistking fitted which is misting 4 times a day at the moment for 25secs which I thought sounded a lot but it is maintaining humidity of 60%(according to my combimeter) by doing this.


I am using Exo Terras for a couple of mine and I spray twice a day and the humidity is fine. I've covered the front half of the mesh top, and then on the back half I have a compact top, with a 2% "Natural Sunlight" UV bulb and a 13w Jungle Dawn. Glass will filter out the vast majority of the UV, which really makes your bulbs a waste of money, so I'd leave the part with the bulbs on as mesh.

I personally keep mostly dendrobates tinctorius and they for sure will use all of that space.


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)




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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Meefloaf said:


> image


Brilliant! Took me a while to spot it!


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Them!! Only saw one first time.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Haha nice one Joe


Mike


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Glass will remove all UVB.

a good optiwhite or low iron glass still removes a huge % in my tests. So when using a low output lamp like a natural sunlight they become useless

Bets fitting inside of the enclosure or use a higher % through a mesh with a reflector.

Jungle dawn of course being non UV is unaffected 

john


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Arcadiajohn said:


> Glass will remove all UVB.
> 
> a good optiwhite or low iron glass still removes a huge % in my tests. So when using a low output lamp like a natural sunlight they become useless
> 
> ...


Thanks John,

That's interesting to know. Think I am going to try and experiment of covering half of the mesh lid and see what happens, that way my UV bulb will be unaffected. Love the Jungle dawn by the way, really happy with it.

Marc


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

that's great, thanks for the feedback,

I'm expecting a whirlwind of comments next week as we finally launch the 'twice as powerful' 22w 

yes the mesh will work fine I am sure 

john





Wingnut2711 said:


> Thanks John,
> 
> That's interesting to know. Think I am going to try and experiment of covering half of the mesh lid and see what happens, that way my UV bulb will be unaffected. Love the Jungle dawn by the way, really happy with it.
> 
> Marc


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Sorry to go off at a tangent John and Wingnut , but how can U.V.B. pass through light tubes and bulbs made of glass ?


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Arcadiajohn said:


> that's great, thanks for the feedback,
> 
> I'm expecting a whirlwind of comments next week as we finally launch the 'twice as powerful' 22w
> 
> ...


Wow! sounds very cool. Bit much for a 450 x 450 x 600 Zoomed?


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

ohh yes your right. The 13w is plenty 




Wingnut2711 said:


> Wow! sounds very cool. Bit much for a 450 x 450 x 600 Zoomed?


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Just a thought,

we have a new 'pre-launch' video of the 22watt in action if anyone is wondering just how bright it is

PAR is 700+ at 10cms

This is in a 6x5x2 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvpNFldGGOU

John


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

colinm said:


> Sorry to go off at a tangent John and Wingnut , but how can U.V.B. pass through light tubes and bulbs made of glass ?


Wingnut please forgive me bumping this for John,it's such an interesting question Colin has posed and I'm utterly sure john just hasn't seen it,good Q Colin one that has never occurred to me but hell I wanna know now too,:lol2: I wonder how much thickness of glass in the actual tube is a player ,but i'm just guessing wildly for fun.:mf_dribble:

Wingnut we do use UVB on alot of our dart vivs,I have never measured what the frogs get in viv,there is a great thread in the stickies " theories and musings" on UVB you should read. Mike's right many of these frogs live in dark understory,that said many are said to bask,so I personally like the idea of trying to get closer to nature,I won't go further here as the thread referred to contains way more info. Also referring back to mike' s post at the top of page two,be aware we all do things slightly different,if it works it isn't really, or rather can't be wrong, so the aforementioned "book" is somewhat redundant!:lol2:! Many ways to keep a dart mate from no lights to UVB from rain water to filtered to treated tap,what matters is an awareness of what has brought others success, which gives you options to find the best way for you.

Mike I utterly agree with the sentiment of your post though,bro it's why we both hang in there and keep trying to help the next guy,I'll always admire the time you put in for him and his frogs. 

'ERE Wingnut what's ya name mate? 

best of luck

Stu


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

soundstounite said:


> Wingnut please forgive me bumping this for John,it's such an interesting question Colin has posed and I'm utterly sure john just hasn't seen it,good Q Colin one that has never occurred to me but hell I wanna know now too,:lol2: I wonder how much thickness of glass in the actual tube is a player ,but i'm just guessing wildly for fun.:mf_dribble:
> 
> Wingnut we do use UVB on alot of our dart vivs,I have never measured what the frogs get in viv,there is a great thread in the stickies " theories and musings" on UVB you should read. Mike's right many of these frogs live in dark understory,that said many are said to bask,so I personally like the idea of trying to get closer to nature,I won't go further here as the thread referred to contains way more info. Also referring back to mike' s post at the top of page two,be aware we all do things slightly different,if it works it isn't really, or rather can't be wrong, so the aforementioned "book" is somewhat redundant!:lol2:! Many ways to keep a dart mate from no lights to UVB from rain water to filtered to treated tap,what matters is an awareness of what has brought others success, which gives you options to find the best way for you.
> 
> ...


Hi Stu,

Not a prob,it would be interesting to find out also. 

Name is Marc but I'll answer to anything 

Thank you for the heads up on the thread, I'll have a nose. 

I have tonight installed a 2/3rds glass panel to see what happens RE humidity. Gonna practice at culturing fruit flies as well as have read page after page today and want to get it mastered. Have kept a plethora of reps overs the years but these will be my first phibs, ridiculously excited but determined to get everything perfect as I can before adding livestock, which is another 4 months or so due to holidays. 

Can't get over how helpful everyone is and prepared to share their hard earned knowledge, it really is appreciated, so thanks again everyone.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Great question!

It's not glass  it's called 'open glass' which is crystal based. Sometime sapphire crystal.

That is how quality UVB lamps allow terrestrial wavelengths through but block UVC.

John


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

Arcadiajohn said:


> Great question!
> 
> It's not glass  it's called 'open glass' which is crystal based. Sometime sapphire crystal.
> 
> ...


so what you're saying is, we need to make our viv lids out of that lol


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Erm,,,

Not sure if it's even possible and it's stupid expensive. But in theory if ventilation was good it could in the future be a good medium to use.


John 




Meefloaf said:


> so what you're saying is, we need to make our viv lids out of that lol


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

If it's what I think it is, you can buy it from Corning Joe (http://www.corning.com/lightingmaterials/images/Vycor_7913.pdf). Let us know how you get on!!! 

Nick


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

DrNick said:


> If it's what I think it is, you can buy it from Corning Joe (http://www.corning.com/lightingmaterials/images/Vycor_7913.pdf). Let us know how you get on!!!
> 
> Nick


Hmm the plot thickens.... any idea of prices Nick?

John thanks for that ^^^ 

Oh god how to word this...here we go:mf_dribble: 
Without stomping on the good Dr's head:Na_Na_Na_Nai'll promise to show you a baby summersi pic nick to make it right:lol2

Would it be politically incorrect to ask for your expertise on this,will it work, John? You you build these products we are using,but I sort of feel very awkward asking this,but if low iron is letting so little through there has might be a better way maybe using Nick's product above for just part of the viv top.

Hey Marc sorry about this,I just talk to frogs mate,but these clever buggers know stuff I need to use and steal. 

Marc I build the top of my vivs(ent style) with a front section of normal glass then the mesh then the back section is low iron,it's called optiwhite. the low iron is meant to let more UVB through. So my approach is to give the frogs a choice,combined with over head planting so the frogs can go about their normal day without UVB if they so wish,but if they want to bask then they have that choice too,plus they also have the choice of possibly slightly different strengths all from one bulb. 

Oh and yup all those bulbs are John's arcadia T5's...tis my frogs mate only the best for them:lol2:

seeya

Stu


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Hi Stu - I was being a bit flippant. I should know better with you around.... ;-)

As John says, I would guess that it is prohibitively expensive. If you were prepared to lose the shirt off your back, there's no reason you couldn't commission pieces for a viv top though (e.g. Vycor® 7913 Sheet - online catalogue source - supplier of research materials in small quantities - Goodfellow). I've only ever bought specialist pieces, never sheets.

Your other alternative is to hone a piece of solid quartz 

Nick

P.S. Sorry, I'm being flippant again......................... When do I get my summersi pic??


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

It is indeed very expensive.

I have used u.v. transmitting acrylic on some of my outdoor vivaria.This type is used for sunbeds. It seems to work quite well although I am told that the transmission lessens with age.

I don't know how you coul practically use this with glass in a vivarium construction though.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

I have acrylic replacement doors for 'dosing' with UV since, as you say Colin, acrylic and glass don't mix well in a humid environment... In practice I very rarely get around to using them however!!

Nick


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

DrNick said:


> Hi Stu - I was being a bit flippant. I should know better with you around.... ;-)
> 
> As John says, I would guess that it is prohibitively expensive. If you were prepared to lose the shirt off your back, there's no reason you couldn't commission pieces for a viv top though (e.g. Vycor® 7913 Sheet - online catalogue source - supplier of research materials in small quantities - Goodfellow). I've only ever bought specialist pieces, never sheets.
> 
> ...


Ha ha apologies are all mine Nick,couldn't help it,but you knew that,see elsewhere, I won't derail further,but thanks both you and Colin for the thoughts

take care

Stu


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