# Carpathian Newts



## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

I think they have a load of these in my local pet shop - they have them as French Newts (!) - they look like a cross between a smooth newt and a palmate newt (but definitely aren't either)... anyone keep these? If so, how? Not much in the way of caresheets. Same as for smooth newts?


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

Wouldnt mind betting they are WC


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## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

to be fair these guys breed a lot of unusual amphibians from time to time buy you may be right... have you kept them?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

All the ones that I have seen look like dull Smooth Newts.


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## lizamphid1 (Dec 15, 2008)

Do you remember how much they were asking for them


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## lukelondon (Mar 2, 2010)

Triturus Montandoni are actually very pretty in comparison to smooths. They can be kept the same as Alpine newts, here's a care sheet you can follow for advice if you decide to get them.
http://www.newttank.co.uk/care/csan.docx

My dad has breed many in the past keeping them this way with no issues.


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## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

they're £6.50 each... looking at newttank they could well have been Italian Newts... if there's interest I might get a couple and post pictures?


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

I have kept them and they are exactly the same as smooth newts to keep but they sure as hell aint from France ,they have ridges down thier backs which makes them look almost square. Italian newts are the smallest newt in europe but as juveniles would be hard to tell apart from carpathian. At £6.50 its a good price for both type of newt.


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

this is a sub adult i had, only picture i could find


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

O r an expensive Smooth :whistling2:


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

colinm said:


> O r an expensive Smooth :whistling2:


:lol2r an expensive smooth

or a cheap new species of "french" newt

to be honest i've seen pet shops with fire bellied newts for sale that have been species of chinese/japanese warty newts ,called them fire bellies because of thier red/orange bellies. Most bog standard pet shops dont have any idea about the different species of newts and if this shop is calling them french newts this seems to be the case here.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I agree.Carpathian Newts are strange in the hobby,there were lots around from eastern Europe a few years ago but I havent seen any in the trade for six or eight years.Its a strange place for people to collect these and I am sure that there are more interesting(and valuable) herps that occur there.


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## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

There are a dozen in the batch, being kept aquatically. I see Newttank has Carpathian and Italian. Like I said, I might get a couple, they're nice-looking newts and seemed quite sociable.


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## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

I've ended up with 5 of these... they are skinny... will take some pics later


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## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

OK so here are some images... can't find a better way to post them (sorry!) they kind of look like Palmate newts but the colours don't match the ones I've seen in the UK and they don't have the tail filament (some are definitely males)... thoughts appreciated...

http://www.caudata.org/forum/members/lefarge-albums-mystery-newts.html


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I am sorry to say that I think most of them are Palmate Newts with the second one being a Smooth Newt.


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## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

I am coming round to your way of thinking but the one you think is a smooth newt is very obviously a male (underneath)...


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

hmmmm im wondering why the pet shop owner called them French newts. If they have been wild caught in france and that is why he's calling them this then i would say smooth newts.male Palmates in breeding condition would have webbed back feet and male smooths are unmistakable. These dont seem to be in breeding mode but maybe are sub adult,


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## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

apparently they are UK CB in an outdoor ponds... they are quite big - the biggest is at least as big as any smooth newt i've seen here and they are clearly not male smooth newts.


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

I thought it was illegal to SELL Palmate and Smooth newts in the breeding season


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

CHATAfrog said:


> apparently they are UK CB in an outdoor ponds... they are quite big - the biggest is at least as big as any smooth newt i've seen here and they are clearly not male smooth newts.


:whistling2: I think that the petshop owner is a naughty man.


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## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

not sure what to say anymore than i know for sure what they are... they are skinny for newly wc and i certainly wouldn't release them...


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

CHATAfrog said:


> apparently they are UK CB in an outdoor ponds... they are quite big - the biggest is at least as big as any smooth newt i've seen here and they are clearly not male smooth newts.


something doesn't sound quite right here. If they were captive bred in outside ponds then whats to stop smooth/palmate newts entering the ponds. As all the newts mentioned go terrestrial on morphing for up to four years so if the ponds are in some way escape proof the newly morphed newts would drown. Italian newts are way smaller than smooth so that counts them out.


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## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

smooth/palmate cross? is that even possible??


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

Ben W said:


> I thought it was illegal to SELL Palmate and Smooth newts in the breeding season


its illegal full stop unless they are captive bred and you can prove they are captive bred.


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

This maybe relevant!!!!!

​*THE PURPOSE(S) FOR WHICH THIS LICENCE APPLIES 
*1. Subject to paragraph 2 and the licence conditions, this licence is granted to permit the sale of live and dead adult specimens of certain amphibian species. 
*WHAT THE LICENCE PERMITS 
*2. For the purposes set out in paragraph 1 above, and subject to the terms and conditions, below, this licence permits: 
(i) the sale (which in this licence includes hire, barter or exchange), offer or exposure for sale, possession or transport for the purpose of sale; or 
(ii) the publication or the causing to be published of any advertisement likely to be understood as conveying the buying or selling, or the intention of buying or selling; 
of live and dead adult specimens of the following amphibian species: 
*Common frog Rana temporaria 
Common toad Bufo bufo 
Smooth newt Triturus vulgaris 
Palmate newt Triturus helveticus 
LICENCE CONDITIONS 
*3. Paragraph 2 does not apply: 
(i) As respects specimens of _Rana temporaria_: 
a. between 15 January and 15 April (inclusive of those dates), in any year; and 
b. at any time, as respects specimens taken from the wild between 15 January and 15 April (inclusive of those dates) in any year. 
(ii) As respects specimens of _Bufo bufo_: 
a. between 1 February and 1 May (inclusive of those dates) in any year; and 
b. at any time as respects specimens taken from the wild between 1 February and 1 May (inclusive of those dates) in any year. 
WML – GL19 (01/11) 2 
(iii) As respects specimens of _Triturus vulgaris_: 
a. between 1 April and 1 August (inclusive of those dates) in any year; 
b. at any time, as respects specimens taken from the wild between 1 April and 1 August (inclusive of those dates) in any year; and 
c. at any time, as respects specimens taken from the wild in the counties of Devon, Cornwall or Somerset. 
(iv) As respects specimens of _Triturus helveticus: 
_a. between 1 April and 1 August (inclusive of those dates) in any year; 
b. at any time, as respects specimens taken from the wild between 1 April and 1 August (inclusive of those dates) in any year; and 
c. at any time, as respects specimens taken from the wild in the counties of Cambridgeshire, Lincolnshire, Northamptonshire, Rutland, Staffordshire, Warwickshire, Norfolk, Suffolk or Essex. 

 



_. _


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Yep its possible I have seen them in my pond.What about the underneath are they pale without spots or orange with spots?That was an answer to the cross breeding of species.


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

CHATAfrog said:


> smooth/palmate cross? is that even possible??


hey ? sorry it was meant to mean smooth and palmate.


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

its been known for GCN's to breed with marbled and alpine newts so i dont see why not. They both have the same breeding display .


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## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

they bellies are pale orange, but definitely orange


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

That would point to Smooth Newts.Unfortunately they are not something more exciting.


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## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

but they're male.....


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

CHATAfrog said:


> but they're male.....


Whats that got to do with it?


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

I think once you have got some food in them,and they are settled down then you may get a better idea of what they are, they are skinny thats for certain


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

Ben W said:


> This maybe relevant!!!!!
> 
> 
> *THE PURPOSE(S) FOR WHICH THIS LICENCE APPLIES *
> ...


 sorry didn't realise you meant under licence


any spots on bellies ??


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## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

colinm - these are obviously NOT male smooth newts

agree that when I fatten them up it might be clearer


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## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

no spots on bellies, just creamy orange colours... no spots on throats either


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

CHATAfrog said:


> no spots on bellies, just creamy orange colours... no spots on throats either


well no spots, male similar to female points to carpathian afterall


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I cant see what points to them being male.From the pictuters I cant see any enlarged cloacal region,they have no crests.Crests wouldn`t be apparent on Palmate Newts anyway.

Palmate Newt males only have a filament and hind webbed feet during the breeding season ,whilst these may have been kept aquatically they are not in their breeing finary.Palmate Newts are usually cream or yellow underneath.Smooth Newts are orange often with some brown spots thats why I said that.Yours are creamy orange?

Back to my original theory they look like Palmate Newts except the second picture.Your petshop has said that they are either captive bred or French because they know they shouldn`t sell them and would get in trouble for selling wildcaught British Newts.Why they would risk it is beyond me for £6.50 each.


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

Have a look here:-

Carpathian Newt, Lissotriton montandoni

: victory:


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## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

I really, really don't think they are WC, that shop just wouldn't do that and certainly not for such cheap prices.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

CHATAfrog said:


> I really, really don't think they are WC, that shop just wouldn't do that and *certainly not for such cheap prices*.


WC animals tend to be cheaper, on the whole; import and storage is cheaper than breeding and rearing.

EDIT: And if they are native, it even cuts out the import part of the cost.


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## marcuswinner1 (Sep 24, 2009)

Just a thought regarding the lack of breeding dress, I stopped keeping Smooth Newts as I simply couldn't get them into full breeding condition indoors (even when they went in the fridge). Depending on what these Newts actually are and even if they were CB outdoors, the period of time that they have been indoors (in the shop or elsewhere) could contribute to their lack of breeding condition, making them harder to identify.

I would say if you can get pleanty of weight on them and then give them a good cooling through the winter, the best chance of a good ID might be next spring if they then assume full breeding dress.

Marcus.


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## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

guys i hear you -- i don't think they're wc, we're not going to prove that conclusively one way or another so let's try and stay on topic of what species they are?


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

hmmmm i'll try again, palmates and smooth have spots on underside all year around , carpathian don't. Soooo carpathian being the same size as smooth but males not having much of a breeding dress less tail filament and small crest on tail i will go for carpathian. They (if you can get them in breeding condition) will take on a square look about them with two ridges along thier back. Due to lack of spots on belly i plump as i say for carpathian.


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## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

thanks - missed your message as we posted at same time... I agree with your plan, that's what I'm going to try and do!


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## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

these guys are already starting to look better, happily chowing down on live bloodworm. I am definitely leaning towards them being Palmate newts, 4 males and a female, but will see next Spring.


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

CHATAfrog said:


> these guys are already starting to look better, happily chowing down on live bloodworm. I am definitely leaning towards them being Palmate newts, 4 males and a female, but will see next Spring.


wheres the small palmate newt spots on the belly then ?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

The Palmate Newts that I have had didn`t have any spots on the belly.


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

The main wat to tell the difference between a female smooth and a female palmate is the spots on a smooth newts belly go right up to the throat and palmates dont. I have palmates in the pond in my garden and they all have small spots.


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## CHATAfrog (Feb 27, 2012)

hi guys... these are slowly but surely fattening up and are now eating well... some updated and more thorough pics here if you are a member at caudata -

Caudata.org Newt and Salamander Forum

I think they are smooth/palmate crosses...


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