# Bites from juveniles



## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

I have always been under the impression that juvenile venomous snakes are just as dangerous as the adults. Clearly the venom yield will be lower as they are so much smaller, but to balance that, most venomous species produce way more venom needed to cause serious damage to a human.
There has been a recent thread on the snake section concerning a monocled cobra which has escaped in Germany, with comments that it can't do much harm due to its size, and that because of it being so small the worst it can do if it bites is cause a sore thumb.

This can't be right can it? Surely a baby or juvenile cobra is capable of causing more damage than that, can anyone clarify this please?


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Speak to Paul Rowley about the bite from a neonate _C atrox_ which needed 20 ampoules of CroFab........

Juveniles cannot regulate the amount of venom delivered in the same way as adults can, so each bite is a "full on" one. I would venture that most juvenile elapids can deliver enough venom to cause a fatality if left untreated


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

I would agree. The potency is the same, and so if only a few ml (not a venom nerd ) is needed, a small snake would be as potentially capable of injecting that small critical amount. Perhaps however there is a margin of venom conservation at play? Ie you may be 'lucky' and get a defensive bite? I wouldn't count on this though :lol2:.


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Ah. That's interesting Stu! 

That could be because of the greater risk posed by predators to a smaller snake? Plus a little snake isn't ever going to be as intimidating as a larger one without one hell of a bite. 

Blah blah blah :lol2:.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Im sure i have read that babies in certain species have a more complex cocktail of venom than their adult counterparts, which makes up for the lower yield. 

I dont think anyone is doubting that a baby venomous snake is potentially deadly.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

best not to find out!


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## snakekeeper (Oct 29, 2008)

A friend of mine went on a herping trip to Northern Greece and managed to get tagged by a baby vipera ammodytes. He was hospitalised for 2 weeks of them 8 days he spent in intensive care. Within an hour of being rushed to hospital he was unconcious. I'd say that that is a clear sign that venomous hatchlings do have the potential to cause serious venomous bites. Having said that I can't help but wonder whether my friend may have had an allergic reaction to the bite. I was told that the doctors in charge all lacked knowledge of treating a venomous bite be it from a native snake and even resorted to the internet for information.


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## Jay1978 (Sep 1, 2009)

ian14 said:


> I have always been under the impression that juvenile venomous snakes are just as dangerous as the adults. Clearly the venom yield will be lower as they are so much smaller, but to balance that, most venomous species produce way more venom needed to cause serious damage to a human.
> There has been a recent thread on the snake section concerning a monocled cobra which has escaped in Germany, with comments that it can't do much harm due to its size, and that because of it being so small the worst it can do if it bites is cause a sore thumb.
> 
> This can't be right can it? Surely a baby or juvenile cobra is capable of causing more damage than that, can anyone clarify this please?


I replied to this on the snake section and said the following as I was under the impression that a young venemous snake does not have the control over the ammount of venom it punches out in a bite as an adult. Thus making the bite just as dangerous as one from an adult. Please correct me if I am wrong


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

The theory that juvenile snakes have not yet learned to control the amount of venom they deliver and thus deliver the contents of the entire venom gland is just a theory without much (if any) evidence as far as I am aware. In reality there are all sorts of factors which affect how much venom a snake delivers and there are no hard and fast rules. What is certain is that a hatchling cobra of any species is perfectly capable of delivering a fatal envenomation and should be treated with just as much caution as any other venomous snake.

David.


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

Stuart is right, that 7 week old baby Crotalus atrox bite very serious and painful. I needed 20 ampoules of antivenom.


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## oliccm (Sep 8, 2008)

YouTube - I Was Bitten: Cobra Attack


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## WW** (Jan 20, 2008)

_*ON AVERAGE*_ bites by neonates or small juveniles are less severe than bites by adults, simply because the dose of venom a snake can inject increases dramatically with size. As David already mentioned, there is no real evidence for the idea that juveniles inject all their venoms whereas adults don't, but even if it were true, you would get more venom from an adult that injects 10-20% of its venom than a juvenile that injects 100% of its reserves.*** 

_*HOWEVER*_, as PDR found out, some juveniles still pack a massive punch and are capable of fatal envenoming, so nobody should underestimate a baby snake.


***Moreover, there is research evidence that whereas adult snakes control venom dose fairly well during predatory strikes, they don't do so during defensive bites. The result is that the quantity of venom injected even by an adult in a defensive bite is unpredictable, and, on average, _*GREATER*_ than in a feeding bite! Forget the idea that defensive bites inject less venom, it's wishful thinking!


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

WW** said:


> ***Moreover, there is research evidence that whereas adult snakes control venom dose fairly well during predatory strikes, they don't do so during defensive bites. The result is that the quantity of venom injected even by an adult in a defensive bite is unpredictable, and, on average, _*GREATER*_ than in a feeding bite! Forget the idea that defensive bites inject less venom, it's wishful thinking!


Has this been published? If so can you post the reference?


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## WW** (Jan 20, 2008)

Title: Venom flow in rattlesnakes: mechanics and metering 
Author(s): Young BA, Zahn K
Source: JOURNAL OF EXPERIMENTAL BIOLOGY Volume: 204 Issue: 24 Pages: 4345-4351 Published: DEC 2001

Abstract: The functional morphology of venom injection in Crotalus atrox was explored using high-speed digital videography combined with direct recording of venom flow using perivascular flow probes. Although venom flow was variable, in most strikes the onset of venom flow was coincidental with fang penetration, and retrograde flow (venom suction) was observed prior to fang withdrawal. The duration of venom flow was consistently less than the duration of fang penetration. The occurrence of retrograde flow, 'dry bites' (which accounted for 35% of the strikes) and unilateral strikes all support a hypothesis for venom pooling in the distal portion of the venom-delivery system. No significant difference in temporal or volumetric aspects of venom flow were found between defensive strikes directed at small and large rodents. *With the species and size of target held constant, the duration of venom flow, maximum venom flow rate and total venom volume were all significantly lower in predatory than in defensive strikes.*


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

WW** said:


> Title: Venom flow in rattlesnakes: mechanics and metering
> Author(s): Young BA, Zahn K
> Source: JOURNAL OF EXPERIMENTAL BIOLOGY Volume: 204 Issue: 24 Pages: 4345-4351 Published: DEC 2001
> 
> Abstract: The functional morphology of venom injection in Crotalus atrox was explored using high-speed digital videography combined with direct recording of venom flow using perivascular flow probes. Although venom flow was variable, in most strikes the onset of venom flow was coincidental with fang penetration, and retrograde flow (venom suction) was observed prior to fang withdrawal. The duration of venom flow was consistently less than the duration of fang penetration. The occurrence of retrograde flow, 'dry bites' (which accounted for 35% of the strikes) and unilateral strikes all support a hypothesis for venom pooling in the distal portion of the venom-delivery system. No significant difference in temporal or volumetric aspects of venom flow were found between defensive strikes directed at small and large rodents. *With the species and size of target held constant, the duration of venom flow, maximum venom flow rate and total venom volume were all significantly lower in predatory than in defensive strikes.*


Thanks!


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