# Well Well Well.. I never thought that would happen!



## scoobylyn (Nov 24, 2009)

I have some of my own rat babies at the moment and a guy came over yesterday to see them. He breeds naked rats so as I have never had anything to do with nakies asked him to bring some for me to see. He brought two 6 week old boys and a 6 week old girl plus mum and dad. OMG I was smitten. The friendliest lickiest babies and they spent the whole time on me either asleep or just smothering me in kisses. Needless to say they are still here and he has 4 of mine!

I never thought in a million years I would take to hairless rats. I must admit to still feeling they look 'wrong' but they are so warm and snuggly. They are three hooded ones with very fine downy fuzz on them. The other funny thing was the other rats absolutely love them and its a fight to who can sleep next to them.

I think I am in love :hearts: :hearts: :hearts:


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

What you taking about willis?


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

hairless are gorgeous :flrt: I didnt like them either to i got them


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

scoobylyn said:


> I have some of my own rat babies at the moment and a guy came over yesterday to see them. He breeds naked rats so as I have never had anything to do with nakies asked him to bring some for me to see. He brought two 6 week old boys and a 6 week old girl plus mum and dad. OMG I was smitten. The friendliest lickiest babies and they spent the whole time on me either asleep or just smothering me in kisses. Needless to say they are still here and he has 4 of mine!
> 
> I never thought in a million years I would take to hairless rats. I must admit to still feeling they look 'wrong' but they are so warm and snuggly. They are three hooded ones with very fine downy fuzz on them. The other funny thing was the other rats absolutely love them and its a fight to who can sleep next to them.
> 
> I think I am in love :hearts: :hearts: :hearts:


 
I love hairless ratties:flrt::flrt::flrt:


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## scoobylyn (Nov 24, 2009)

These are so goddamm tame and friendly. They just want to kiss you to death all the time and they sit still! Wish my own babies were as well behaved as these ones.


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## MistressSadako (Jan 17, 2009)

Oh, i didn't know that rats were like Pokemon cards...swap them to get the whole set.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> I love hairless ratties:flrt::flrt::flrt:


me too and I have some of them.


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## xvickyx (Jul 21, 2009)

Awwwww nakies are so cute!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> me too and I have some of them.


 
I have two called Benji and Milo:flrt::flrt: I took them to the vet yesterday as Benji has a scratch on his eye and all he could do was lick the vet:flrt:


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## fern (May 25, 2008)

<3 nakies are gorgeous.
i looked after my friends one! she was really friendly too  cute lil girly!

**before anyone says anything it wasnt just her hairless, she also has 2 others which she was with whom i also looked after


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## Ruthy (Dec 10, 2007)

MistressSadako said:


> Oh, i didn't know that rats were like Pokemon cards...swap them to get the whole set.


SO its ok to go and buy a rat, but if one person would like to buy one of your rats, and you would like to buy one of theirs, it isnt ok to do a fair trade?? :whip:


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## MistressSadako (Jan 17, 2009)

Oh, another one of them I see! I'm only concerned because there aren't any "good" breeders breeding hairless ratties, so the OP has just swapped those babies with what is more than likely a byb or feeder breeder.

And I would never never "swap" an animal.


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## Ruthy (Dec 10, 2007)

MistressSadako said:


> Oh, another one of them I see! I'm only concerned because there aren't any "good" breeders breeding hairless ratties, so the OP has just swapped those babies with what is more than likely a byb or feeder breeder.
> 
> And I would never never "swap" an animal.


For a start darlin' i am not another one of anything. I was simply asking what was wrong with a fair trade when both wanted something from the other party? Also, where has your evidence come from to say that the hairless breeder is a back yard breeder? They could be a respectable breeder or good hobby breeder etc? You have no evidence to support your accusations that they where probably a BYB or feeder breeder. 

Oh, and just to put in my two pence worth, not all feeder breeders are bad, a lot take care of their animals extremely well! :bash:


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

MistressSadako said:


> Oh, another one of them I see! I'm only concerned because there aren't any "good" breeders breeding hairless ratties, so the OP has just swapped those babies with what is more than likely a byb or feeder breeder.
> 
> And I would never never "swap" an animal.


that you know of...im doubt you know every single good breeder of rats in the UK, not everyone goes to shows, doesnt mean that they dont take excellent care of their rats. the breeder i got my second lot of hairless is a good breeder and ive had gorgeous healthy rats from her
and she had babies he wanted that he was having anyway..would you rather he gave her the money for her to give it straight back to him for her rats. what nonsense


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## scoobylyn (Nov 24, 2009)

Ok... the guy has been breeding hairless for some time and he has not got any health problems with his rats. 

Secondly, most feeder breeders I have met look after their rats very well.

Third, you don't need to be a 'named' breeder to have the monopoly on breeding. I have known several breeders who have been breeding for many years and do not have a rattery name. Does that make them 'back yard' breeders as you scathingly put it.

Words fail me MS they really do. I did not simply swap them to get a full set as you so nastily suggested... if you want to put it a different way then... he brought mine and I brought his. If I hadn't liked his babies I wouldn't have taken them and he would have just brought mine.


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## MistressSadako (Jan 17, 2009)

Evs - I don't see you advertising these facts on FR: victory:


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## MistressSadako (Jan 17, 2009)

Ruthy said:


> For a start darlin'



Don't call me "darlin'", sweetheart.


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

I luff my nakid rat, i swear he has torrets, he cost £30!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But worth every penny! hes amazing, all my boys are adorable and sweet, but he is OTT with licks, and kisses, and gives kisses through the bars....

he still looks and feels like a penis but he is soooooooooooooooooooooo adorable! my fave rat ive ever owned! (for the nice sweet factor) 

but the boys i have are somat else! one splinter, i swear hes slightly retarded in the head, he isnt all there, currently looks like rudolf after beeing a daft bugger and puting his nose in to skyes cage (through the bars) so she bit him! (shes got babies atm) Mojos super lazy but sweet too. And then theres zombie the hairless........MAD! hes brilliant!


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

Ill have you know i breed my rats, roans specifically. And have been looking in to breeding hairless, i am not on the breeders list....yet but plan to be, yet i need to establish my breeding lines before hand! 

That doesn't make me a bad owner, or breeder, As my rats health is the utmost important thing to me! None of my rats are bred for feeders, they are pets and pets only. 

Your post has upset me, and im sure would upset other people who do the same, Not all rat breeders are bad, not all use them for feeders and keep them in poor conditions! there is no need to slander the OP for swapping rats as its a fair deal! they were coming to purchase them anyway! I would do the same if i was happy with their ethics!


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

Nebbz said:


> I am not on the breeders list....yet but plan to be, yet i need to establish my breeding lines before hand!


Why do you need to establish your breeding lines first?


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I think what folks are trying to say is that there are no good breeders of hairless, most hairless breeders get their breeding rats from pet shops or feeder breeders, who dont breed for health or temperament.

There was only one respectable breeder of hairless in the country and she's now stopped.

It's nothing to do with showing, popularity or clubs - it's to do with getting your stock from a good breeder and breeding for health first and foremost. It'll take many many generations to get pet shop animals in anywhere near the health, size and conformation of breeder rats - and without wanting to be rude, the majority of hairless "breeders" dont care about that, they'll argue they're not breeding for show without thinking of the reasons why people do!


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

Minerva said:


> Why do you need to establish your breeding lines first?


as most ill be keeping (from this litter its going to be a few months till i really kick off the roans) being i want to make sure 1st! its how i have chose to do it hun  If this litter turn out to be evil mean biters then i wont be breeding from the guys i have lol! 

altough im 99% sure they wont, mums amazing, as is dad, both had health checks doing really well as are the 11 babies! not one lost its life (thank god) birth was super clean as saw the whole thing, and everything is wrote down, im going to give it a few months then get in touch with the NFRS to join full membership to get on the breeders list. Pretty much all the babies are spoken for, Im keeping 5 sister is having two, a friends brother wants two, so leaves two available. 

just how i have chose how to do it before i really get in to it. : victory:

I was gutted i missed the show, but after the two pet shop rats who died, i was over worried about SDAV. But we are clean never had it, But i have made the pet store aware of how bad their stock is as it doesnt live past 6 months! r.i.p guys. so this is what i want to avoid as i was gutted so do not want this with my stock, even though i know they are from good lines. lines i am happy with. i still want to double check


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## Exotic Mad (Jul 11, 2009)

i wouldn't worry mistress whatever her name is has a problem with virtually everyone who has anything to do with rats unless they are bought from her or a very close knit other few


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

Exotic Mad said:


> i wouldn't worry mistress whatever her name is has a problem with virtually everyone who has anything to do with rats unless they are bought from her or a very close knit other few


Thats interesting as she dosent even breed and thus has nothing to sell :lol2:


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## Exotic Mad (Jul 11, 2009)

i'd love to know how she feels that she can be so patronising to everyone else who buys rats from anyone but a certain few then branding breeders she doesn't even know as byb


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

If the name fits....lol.

It's not meant to be offensive, it's purely pointing out that some people only think of cute babies, rainbow litters, and ear/coat type when they breed. They dont think of body proportion, eye size, head shape, all things that make a healthy rat, and they always breed from pet shop rats or rats from feeder breeders or other BYBs.

They're often the first to shout about how good they are for not showing, because they only want to make nice pets. Thing is, they dont understand why people do show - to check their rats are the right size, shape, build, etc. That's why you see so many BYB rats with really crap eyes, long noses, poor head shape, poor body shape. BYBs will defend their actions saying this isn't important, but it is if we want our rats to be healthy (eg those tiny dumbo eyes - that a good breeder works hard to avoid) and _look like rats should_.

Yes - there's some who breed purely to win - but for good breeders it's not about prize money (there is none), or snobbery, and if you dont like the show fancy then dont show - but learn what a healthy rat looks like, dont breed from crap rats to crap rats, and pretend to be better because you dont show or care.

Isn't it funny how it's always the pet shop owners and BYB who complain most about good breeders....perhaps a tad worried that some people are now shying away from their businesses to get healthy rats from good breeders!


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## Exotic Mad (Jul 11, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> If the name fits....lol.
> 
> It's not meant to be offensive, it's purely pointing out that some people only think of cute babies, rainbow litters, and ear/coat type when they breed. They dont think of body proportion, eye size, head shape, all things that make a healthy rat, and they always breed from pet shop rats or rats from feeder breeders or other BYBs.
> 
> ...


dunno if that was aimed at me but i don't sell pet rats. i own 3 who i breed for food but keep mainly as pets


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Was aimed at the usual anti-good breeder comments. Good breeders aren't snobs, they just care more about the health, temperament and future of rats than BYBs do. You earn your title through reputation, and those who breed from pet shop animals purely for fun, fad or profit will always be known as BYBs by those who've experienced better.

Eg if there were two breeders, one breeding rainbow litters in rex, dumbo, hairless, roan, every variety under the sun - from pet shop or feeder rats, and another breeding for one or two varieties from excellent rats with a known history of health and temperament, and showing to get feedback on their head shape, eye size etc....which would you go to? The one who hasn't got a clue and isn't breeding for any purpose other than making kittens, or the one breeding to make the best in health and temperament first?


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## fern (May 25, 2008)

i breed, occasionally.. i dont go to shows, there are none near enough me.. 
i know people in cornwall who breed.. they also dont go to shows, they arnt on the breeders list.. 

but im happy with their ethics, i know the background of any rat i buy from a breeder, and i make little certificates for people who ask me about the background of a rat someone buys from me.. 

i think breeding and buying rats is about what you as an owner deem to be suitable for yourself. 

im not against the breeders on the list and one day i would love to own a rat from a proper rattery. one day when i have my own place and more time i would love to be considered to go on the list.. but for now im happy breeding my rats the way i want to breed them, i always ensure my rats are healthy and dont breed from pet shop rats, i breed from rats i have bred from (the first ever litter i had was when i took on a female who was pregnant! got me hooked!!) 

i will also use friends rats to mate with my females and my males for their females... my males are getting on a bit now. 

im probly going to be flamed for this but thats how it goes! i like to think that people down here who have had rats off me will vouch for me (not sure if theer are any on here actually!!) oh and i also dont post on fr anymore.. not much anyways. i got fed up of the people attacking people all the time.. :S (not saying everyone on there was like that!!) 

well.. thats that.. and now im ready to become outcast :S 
xx


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## Brett (Jul 21, 2009)

i love hairless im getting 2 hairless mice this weekend :flrt:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

There's nothing stopping you going on the list now Fern, you never know, you might learn something from the forum too. Or get some good breeding stock to start over with?


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## bampoisongirl (Mar 28, 2008)

Ewww hairless :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## JackieL (May 19, 2009)

Marinam2 said:


> What you taking about willis?


:lolsign:


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## fern (May 25, 2008)

lisa, i know its just whilst im still living with my parents i cant really do it. should be mmoving out within the next couple of months, then its all go. and i will be starting completely afresh with rats to breed. all my current rats wont be bred from as a few of them suffered with sdav when it went through last year so im wary of using them. plus 3 are pet shop bought (not by me though) 

my males are the only rats i currently have which i know the lines back 2 or 3 gens, but they are now farrr too old lol. they dont even go to the bars when the girls walk over the top of the cage anymore! 

but yes in the not too far future i shall start properly and will go about things 'right' in the view of already established breeders.


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## NaomiR (Jan 26, 2009)

I used to dislike naked ratties till I met one (and I've now owned 3) they're simply GORGEOUS all wrinkly and cuddly :flrt:


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

MistressSadako said:


> Oh, another one of them I see! I'm only concerned because there aren't any "good" breeders breeding hairless ratties, so the OP has just swapped those babies with what is more than likely a byb or feeder breeder.
> 
> And I would never never "swap" an animal.


Bahahaa! You'll have fun here then :flrt:



LisaLQ said:


> There was only one respectable breeder of hairless in the country and she's now stopped.


And so now buying hairless is not allowed?



LisaLQ said:


> There's nothing stopping you going on the list now Fern, you never know, you might learn something from the forum too. Or get some good breeding stock to start over with?


I love rats, I keep rats, I enjoy breeding rats. 
But damn I'd NEVER go near the show crowd! They're just not nice people. In the normal, polite, friendly kind of way that I like people.
I'd say no offence meant, but in all honesty that is offencive, and it's an opinion taken from 10 years on the internet and going to various rodent shows, talking to people at/on both.
Prove me differant, I dare you.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

MistressSadako said:


> Oh, another one of them I see! I'm only concerned because there aren't any "good" breeders breeding hairless ratties, so the OP has just swapped those babies with what is more than likely a byb or feeder breeder.
> 
> And I would never never "swap" an animal.


I take offence to this. I breed for food for my own snakes but my rats are very well cared for and very healthy. A lot of my babies go to pet homes. I have an ex breeder male who is now a pet that will be 4 years old in August and a friend who had one of my naked babies thats now 2 1/2 years old. Not bad for unhealthy feeder/BYB rats hey?

Just because I don't breed for show conformity doesn't mean that my rats aren't healthy, cared for or tame. I can honestly say non of my rats have ever even attempted to bite. And we all know where breeding for type and show conformity got certain dog breeds and the KC don't we.


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

Caz said:


> I take offence to this. I breed for food for my own snakes but my rats are very well cared for and very healthy. A lot of my babies go to pet homes. I have an ex breeder male who is now a pet that will be 4 years old in August and a friend who had one of my naked babies thats now 2 1/2 years old. Not bad for unhealthy feeder/BYB rats hey?
> 
> Just because I don't breed for show conformity doesn't mean that my rats aren't healthy, cared for or tame. I can honestly say non of my rats have ever even attempted to bite. And we all know where breeding for type and show conformity got certain dog breeds and the KC don't we.


No, you don't get it...
If you don't breed for show then you're WRONG!!!
You can cull because they're not perfect and no good for showing (and damn, you don't what your beautiful rats to end us as *pets* - heaven forbid) but you must never cull for any other reason, because that's just wrong!

And obviously no one except show breeders can possibly be looking after the rats right. 

Oh, and before you can become a show breeder you must take a 6 week course in being blinkered and obnoxious.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> If the name fits....lol.
> 
> It's not meant to be offensive, it's purely pointing out that some people only think of cute babies, rainbow litters, and ear/coat type when they breed. They dont think of body proportion, eye size, head shape, all things that make a healthy rat, and they always breed from pet shop rats or rats from feeder breeders or other BYBs.
> 
> ...


If the above is true about showing why do the shows allocate more points (a lot more points) to colour and fur type than actual body shape?

And it was a pro show post that started this rather than a BYB/feeder breeder btw.


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## Cillah (Mar 28, 2010)

NaomiR said:


> I used to dislike naked ratties till I met one (and I've now owned 3) they're simply GORGEOUS all wrinkly and cuddly :flrt:


Me too! Well, I don't own one. But I love them and I would love to own one. I wonder if anyone has some for sale near Manchester? :whistling2:


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## x Sarah x (Nov 16, 2007)

I keep and breed hairless rats and i think they're great, been breeding them for a couple years and never had any serious issues and all my original hairless rats are still with me, so about 2 years old now and going strong.

Only issue i have found with them is every now and then you'll get a baby in a litter that has eye problems, tend to get infections quite easily in their eyes but more often than not it clears up within a couple of weeks and the animal is fine from then on, probably 1 in every 100 babies remains partially blind into adulthood or has to be PTS.

I don't think thats bad going personally, slate me all you want, but if you take care in breeding then i don't see anything wrong with breeding or keeping them, food or pets.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Ally said:


> And so now buying hairless is not allowed?
> 
> 
> I love rats, I keep rats, I enjoy breeding rats.
> ...


Didnt say buying them wasnt "allowed", people can do what they want. I have.

As for proving you wrong, I think it'd be hard to fit in anywhere with that kind of attitude. Ever thought the bad feeling came from your defensive and rude tone, or tarring all people in the fancy with the same brush?

Hmm...:Na_Na_Na_Na:

I'm lovely, aren't I Stacey? Say yes and I'll give you a satin muahaha...


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

LisaLQ said:


> if there were two breeders, one breeding rainbow litters in rex, dumbo, hairless, roan, every variety under the sun - from pet shop or feeder rats, and another breeding for one or two varieties from excellent rats with a known history of health and temperament, and showing to get feedback on their head shape, eye size etc....which would you go to?


In all honesty?

The one that's got the colours I like.

Guess that makes me no better than any other feeder-breeder.... since I'm not breeding for show conformation either.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> Didnt say buying them wasnt "allowed", people can do what they want. I have.
> 
> As for proving you wrong, I think it'd be hard to fit in anywhere with that kind of attitude. Ever thought the bad feeling came from your defensive and rude tone, or tarring all people in the fancy with the same brush?
> 
> ...


Knowing Ally as well as I do I can assure you that she is neither defensive or rude. And in all honesty, I have personally witnessed show breeders from various fancies being exactly as she has described. I sure that there are some lovely breeders out there but I dont see why any one that breeds but doesn't show is suddenly a back yard breeder. This is a very over used, American term and I totally hate it. 
I breed leopard geckos... there are no leopard gecko shows. I still breed them to a high standard. Am I a back yard breeder? 
I DO agree that one should breed from crap stock BUT I bred syrian hamsters for years, some from well known lines and others from other little breeders like me and you know what... The show stock had crap fertility! I only breed/bred from well marked, well coloured animals but I personally never showed any of them (although my then housemate did a couple of times). They were all high quality BUT because I dont show does that make me a back yard breeder? I'm not saying show animals are crap or anything but so long as you are careful and not breeding from lines known to have problems and have homes lined up for babies or cull it humanely if it is to be used for snakes then why the issue? And I used to sell some of my babies to a few very select pet shops. I dont think that makes me a bad person... I think its nice that the child getting their first pet gets a tame, healthy, quality animal rather than a mass produced, mental, weedy thing. 

I have had breeders refuse point blank to sell to me in the past because I dont show. Which is very strange and totally infuriating. 


Kat


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I think there's a vast difference between breeding for healthy pets and breeding for colour and profit though. What SSthisto describes to me is picking colour over health or temperament, and that's exactly what a backyard breeder would do. I dont think the term is offensive to anyone other than a backyard breeder, and if the cap fits, dont blame those who made the term, do something about it to prove them wrong : victory:

The fact is - people who breed only for colour aren't breeding for the love of rats. They might think they are, but they're not. People who breed purely for show aren't much better - I'm not saying everyone in the actual fancy is brilliant, as we know that's crap. Someone who breeds for health, temperament AND THEN variety (if they want) - that is what I would call a good breeder. And you cant breed for health or temperament from rats from the pet shop or feeder lines (I know that'll start an age old argument, but if 90% of your litters are bumped off as babies, or you dont have any background on your breeding rats, how do you know what illnesses and faults they're carrying?).

You cant say a rat bred purely for colour or from feeder lines is "quality". And the best way to breed for "quality" is to show them and get feedback on eye size, head shape, etc - all things essential for healthy rats. Take a look through the classifieds and tell me - do you see dumbos with tiny eyes, hairless with porphy eyes, russians with bad heads (yes, it's a known fault that some of us work hard to get away from)...90% of BYBs wouldn't know a good rat from a bad one. 

And the worst attitude of all comes from those who dont care, and think they can blame their naff attitude on the fancy and use it as an excuse not to get feedback on their lines. "Oh the fancy is so controlling, so I dont show, therefore I'm breeding from pet shop rats and making the bestest rats ever - plus they're not inbred therefore I'm fabulous!".

Erm no.


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## fern (May 25, 2008)

i dont care what colours i get out of a mating, as long as the rats har healthy.. 
x


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Exactamundo :no1:


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> *I think there's a vast difference between breeding for healthy pets and breeding for colour and profit though. What SSthisto describes to me is picking colour over health or temperament, and that's exactly what a backyard breeder would do.* I dont think the term is offensive to anyone other than a backyard breeder, and if the cap fits, dont blame those who made the term, do something about it to prove them wrong : victory:
> 
> The fact is - people who breed only for colour aren't breeding for the love of rats. They might think they are, but they're not. People who breed purely for show aren't much better - I'm not saying everyone in the actual fancy is brilliant, as we know that's crap. Someone who breeds for health, temperament AND THEN variety (if they want) - that is what I would call a good breeder. And you cant breed for health or temperament from rats from the pet shop or feeder lines (I know that'll start an age old argument, but if 90% of your litters are bumped off as babies, or you dont have any background on your breeding rats, how do you know what illnesses and faults they're carrying?).
> 
> ...


If the above is true about 'BYB' choosing colour etc why do the shows allocate more points (a lot more points) to colour and fur type than actual body shape and structure?

I posted this on the previous page but think it may have been missed..


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Because the whole point of showing is preserving varieties while improving health, temperament and type - plus condition on the day. Which is why rats which bite dont do well, or skinny rats with dirty tails etc. There has to be something to strive for.

And striving for all of that is better than striving for colour/profit alone. It's all very well saying that the show fancy is bad for rats, but in all honesty - can you say a BYB or pet shop rat is "better", health and temperament wise?

I'd rather have an all round show rat than one bred for variety alone in sh*t conditions by someone who didn't give a hoot about anything other than how cute they were or how much money they could make...


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

BTW there are also breeder rat sections in pet class for those of us who dont care as much about variety and more about temperament!

I've only shown two of my rats in varieties in the last few years. I would be much happier with a pet win!


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> *Because the whole point of showing is preserving varieties while improving health, temperament and type* - plus condition on the day. Which is why rats which bite dont do well, or skinny rats with dirty tails etc. There has to be something to strive for.
> 
> And striving for all of that is better than striving for colour/profit alone. It's all very well saying that the show fancy is bad for rats, but in all honesty - *can you say a BYB or pet shop rat is "better", health and temperament wise?*
> 
> I'd rather have an all round show rat than one bred for variety alone in sh*t conditions by someone who didn't give a hoot about anything other than how cute they were or how much money they could make...


But giving more points to colour/fur rather than shape etc is not 'improving health.' It's breeding for colour. Which in my mind knocks the whole 'only buy from show breeders' argument on the head.
I would have thought that any animal 'show' fraternity had seen the mess the KC is in with dog breed types and tried to avoid rats heading down the same route (bizarrely.)

In all honesty I can say that rats I've seen in BYB and feeder breeders homes have all been well cared for and none have ever attempted to bite. Health wise, genetic variety can only be a good thing.
I can't say 'better' but I can say IMHO equal.

I have only ever been to one persons house who breeds and shows rats. Granted they loved their rats, but a bigger sh1thole would be harder to find and the smell of ammonia was appalling. So I can honestly say in my limited experiance so called 'BYB' and feeder breeders have kept their rats in better conditions than show breeders..

At the end of the day the average person wanting a rat wants a pet rather than a show rat and I don't think they'll go far wrong with a feeder breeder or BYB genetically diverse, friendly rat.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> BTW there are also breeder rat sections in pet class for those of us who dont care as much about variety and more about temperament!
> 
> I've only shown two of my rats in varieties in the last few years. I would be much happier with a pet win!


Also when you say 'temperament' how many savage rats have you came across in the show breeders world? Just that i've never had a breeder rat try and bite.


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

Caz said:


> Also when you say 'temperament' how many savage rats have you came across in the show breeders world? Just that i've never had a breeder rat try and bite.


she isnt from a good breeder but a pets at home breeder.........SHE IS EVIL! HORRIBLE RAT! which is an utter shame! but one reason i wont get from pet store ever again! lol


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> *I think there's a vast difference between breeding for healthy pets and breeding for colour and profit though*. What SSthisto describes to me is picking colour over health or temperament, *and that's exactly what a backyard breeder would do.* I dont think the term is offensive to anyone other than a backyard breeder, and if the cap fits, dont blame those who made the term, do something about it to prove them wrong : victory:
> 
> The fact is - people who breed only for colour aren't breeding for the love of rats. They might think they are, but they're not. People who breed purely for show aren't much better - I'm not saying everyone in the actual fancy is brilliant, as we know that's crap. Someone who breeds for health, temperament AND THEN variety (if they want) - that is what I would call a good breeder. *And you cant breed for health or temperament from rats from the pet shop or feeder lines (I know that'll start an age old argument, but if 90% of your litters are bumped off as babies, or you dont have any background on your breeding rats, how do you know what illnesses and faults they're carrying?).*
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if I've missed a point here but when did the word profit get mentioned? Seriously, anyone that has kept rats knows as a fact that you CANT breed them for profit unless you are doing it on a commercial scale and thats not what we are discussing. 

So put simply someone that breeds for any reason other than showing is a 'back yard breeder'? 

All of my feeder breeder mice came from show lines a few years ago (although not now I must admit) and I bred aiming to stay close to breed standards so yes, mice bred by a feeder breeder CAN be quality. 
These days I'm simply aiming to produce a decent quality, well kept, happy mice for food for my snakes because i hate feeding them the shite you get from pet shops that is skinny, louse riddled and clearly unhealthy. Frankly, as long as I'm happy that the mice are healthy and that they are living good lives in big cages then for me thats what matters. They aren't destined to be pets/show animals etc, they are just good food. The fact that i enjoy keeping them is simply a bonus.

The last comment I have high lighted is one I've yet to hear any one say.


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

Nice one Lyn! I'm thinking about getting a naked male to add to my lot 

Personally I couldn't give a rats ass about breeder snobbery (not all breeders btw). Provided the animal is healthy and well tempered then that is all that matters.

I breed for food. I have a small collection set up in big cages (furplast furet tower), they get looked after and played with daily. I guess that's frowned upon as I don't show though..... despite them getting breaks between litters due to multiple females, and keeping some back as pets.

I'm with Ally and Twiglet on this one..


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

LisaLQ said:


> As for proving you wrong, I think it'd be hard to fit in anywhere with that kind of attitude. Ever thought the bad feeling came from your defensive and rude tone, or tarring all people in the fancy with the same brush?
> 
> Hmm...:Na_Na_Na_Na:


But I enjoy being rude and offencive to people who are rude and offend me 



Ssthisto said:


> In all honesty?
> 
> The one that's got the colours I like.
> 
> Guess that makes me no better than any other feeder-breeder.... since I'm not breeding for show conformation either.


You, and I are the devil. Yes. Yes we are.



LisaLQ said:


> You cant say a rat bred purely for colour or from feeder lines is "quality". And the best way to breed for "quality" is to show them and get feedback on eye size, head shape, etc - all things essential for healthy rats.


Awsomes! Best ignorant quote ever!



LisaLQ said:


> Because the whole point of showing is preserving varieties while improving health, temperament and type - plus condition on the day. Which is why rats which bite dont do well, or skinny rats with dirty tails etc. There has to be something to strive for.
> 
> And striving for all of that is better than striving for colour/profit alone. It's all very well saying that the show fancy is bad for rats, but in all honesty - can you say a BYB or pet shop rat is "better", health and temperament wise?
> 
> I'd rather have an all round show rat than one bred for variety alone in sh*t conditions by someone who didn't give a hoot about anything other than how cute they were or how much money they could make...


It's true, it's the law you know. If you don't show your rats you have to keep them in unclean cages, with little food. You have to breed them litter-to-litter and only breed the shittiest ones together.



Twiglet said:


> So put simply someone that breeds for any reason other than showing is a 'back yard breeder'?


Essentially this is what I understand from our conversation 



Fangio said:


> Nice one Lyn! I'm thinking about getting a naked male to add to my lot
> 
> Personally I couldn't give a rats ass about breeder snobbery (not all breeders btw). Provided the animal is healthy and well tempered then that is all that matters.
> 
> ...


You are also the devil.


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

Ally said:


> You are also the devil.


For sure.:devil:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I dont breed rats or show them but I have been given my rats by hobby breeders that are bred to be good pets. My 2 hairless boys are delightful and if I didnt acquire them from hobby breeders where would I get them from? I like hairless animals which is why I have 2 Sphynx cats.
I dont understand why people get so annoyed by people breeding hairless rats.


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> I dont understand why people get so annoyed by people breeding hairless rats.


Unfortuantley because most are riddled with health issues connected to the 3 hairless known genes.

I know nothing about cats and hairless ones, but with rats...there are things linked to the hairless genes which often cause issues, and cant be bred out unless you bred the hairless gene out...


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Minerva said:


> Unfortuantley because most are riddled with health issues connected to the 3 hairless known genes.
> 
> I know nothing about cats and hairless ones, but with rats...there are things linked to the hairless genes which often cause issues, and cant be bred out unless you bred the hairless gene out...


They said this with Sphynx but in the end it was proved to be rubbish and they have now been accepted by the GCCF so can be shown. Maybe the same thing will happen with rats


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## catastrophyrat (Jul 8, 2009)

Sadly as Minerva says with hairless rats it can cause real problems -I don't think the genes are same in Sphynx as they do have a fine plush. 
The most damaging seems to immune problems.
I love them dearly but know how hard it is to lose them.


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## Daisyy (Jan 15, 2010)

hahah they are adorable, the same thing happened to me pretty much!










:whistling2:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Let's get this right, because you have met ONE show breeder, and her house was a shithole, all show breeders are bad, and BYBs are fab?

There are varying shades of grey, y'know. Some of us breed for healthy happy PETS, a show rat is just a plus but not essential.

I still stand by my thought that showing is a very important part of breeding - I've never however said it's the be all and end all, as many people can tell a good rat from a poor type one easily without needing a show critique.

But I've never seen a top notch healthy rat from a BYB. Ever. All I've seen are weedy scrawny things with virtually no eyes, bred purely for being hairless, or dumbo, or roan, or siamese, or hell - why not all of them at once, then sell them for varying prices. Who cares if they die from respiratory illness because the "breeder" (and I say that tongue well and truly in cheek) didnt check the lines or even know them.

And yet if a good breeder has one unhealthy rat and breeds away from that, they're monsters. 

What happened to breeding rats to make rats stronger, healthier, happier and friendlier? Oh, but if you show too - jesus H chrispies - you're worse than Hitler.

Yawn.


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

LisaLQ said:


> Let's get this right, because you have met ONE show breeder, and her house was a shithole, all show breeders are bad, and BYBs are fab?


Oh don't get me wrong, I've not met ONE show breeder, I've met a whole lot more than that over the last 10 years or so!
I've also met a lot of shitty 'pet' breeders too. But you seem to think that everyone not breeding for show is an irresponsible twat. I don't think it takes a genius to see that you're quite blatantly going to be wrong on that viewpoint (hence my view of show breeders being blinkered and ignorant is once again proven).



LisaLQ said:


> I still stand by my thought that showing is a very important part of breeding - I've never however said it's the be all and end all, as many people can tell a good rat from a poor type one easily without needing a show critique.


This statement is far more sensible, go you. Although you may want to make it clear that *you* find it important for *your* breeding. Rather than wording it so that it sounds like it's actually the only way for someone to breed rats withough them being born and instantly dropping dead of a list of diseases. Which again, would prove my point about the show circle if that is actually what you do mean.



LisaLQ said:


> But I've never seen a top notch healthy rat from a BYB. Ever. All I've seen are weedy scrawny things with virtually no eyes, bred purely for being hairless, or dumbo, or roan, or siamese, or hell - why not all of them at once, then sell them for varying prices. Who cares if they die from respiratory illness because the "breeder" (and I say that tongue well and truly in cheek) didnt check the lines or even know them.
> 
> And yet if a good breeder has one unhealthy rat and breeds away from that, they're monsters.
> 
> ...


What if someone breeds show lines but doesn't show? We already established that with you they then count as a "BYB", so do the rats thenselves magically change genetically and in health as soon as someone else gets them?
I've never found show rats to live any longer or even be any healthier than a good pet rat. 

You are also making a very sweeping statement that ALL breeders except show breeders are evil, money grabbing monsters. And personally I have found show breeders to be blinkered, self obsessed idiots. Now since my sweeping statement has never been proven wrong and covers far less people than your rather wide-ranging one (and yours does include some rather odd beliefs - like show rats getting unhealthy when kept by non-show breeders). I think we can conclude that I am right and you can go back to your rock.

Thanks.


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## Raych (Mar 1, 2010)

I think that this whole argument is stupid. No one is going to change their beliefs and/or opinion's because you said so. In the end your rat is your rat, so save the arguing for actual BYB/snobby showers, because I'm pretty sure they're the type who don't come on forums like this. Whatever happened to people loving and enjoying their pets, why is there so many freakin stupid :censor: rules that you can't do this or can't do that, why can't we just do what's best for our pets by our own educated opinions :whistling2:

Cute rats, I can't wait to get my own, I have no idea what type of rat I want only that I want two. :lol: 
Though I'm tempted to get hairless now.


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## scoobylyn (Nov 24, 2009)

Well as this was my thread I thought you should all meet the troublesome Fiona


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## whiskers (Dec 21, 2009)

She's beautiful Lyn!!!! 
Jx


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

scoobylyn said:


> Well as this was my thread I thought you should all meet the troublesome Fiona
> 
> image


She's gawwjuss :flrt:

(and apologies for going so off topic on your thread, I just can't help baiting them, it's like popping bulbblewrap - compulsive and you just can't stop!)


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## Exotic Mad (Jul 11, 2009)

Ally said:


> (and apologies for going so off topic on your thread, I just can't help baiting them, it's like popping bulbblewrap - compulsive and you just can't stop!)


:rotfl::roll2:


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## ShellsAngel (Feb 12, 2009)

shes lovely!! i have two and they are much friendlier than my furry ones.


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

Raych said:


> I think that this whole argument is stupid. No one is going to change their beliefs and/or opinion's because you said so. In the end your rat is your rat, so save the arguing for actual BYB/snobby showers, because I'm pretty sure they're the type who don't come on forums like this. Whatever happened to people loving and enjoying their pets, why is there so many freakin stupid :censor: rules that you can't do this or can't do that, why can't we just do what's best for our pets by our own educated opinions :whistling2:
> 
> Cute rats, I can't wait to get my own, I have no idea what type of rat I want only that I want two. :lol:
> Though I'm tempted to get hairless now.




im keeping out of the argument! lol

HOW EVER ide say get a hairless and a fluffer! i love both my full fured guys but my hairless guy is speciall! hes so loving, and sweet, and he gives the best ratty kisses ever! :2thumb:


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

scoobylyn said:


> Well as this was my thread I thought you should all meet the troublesome Fiona
> 
> image


aww she still has some fur!! ide love anohter hairless......not to sure if i would pay £30 for one again though :lol2:


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## Raych (Mar 1, 2010)

Aww I love her, is she hairless of not ? She looks half and half. I'm new to rats, not too sure of difference's :lol2:

Need a bit of info knocked into me :bash:


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

depends on her and her age, some take longer to loose their fur than others. 

My boy is completly hairless bar a little fuz on his face and on his front legs! super soft though! u know im just going to have to get him out and smother him with kisses :lol2:

heres my Mr Zombie the day i got him! (having a bath as had poop on him! eurgh!)


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Raych said:


> Cute rats, I can't wait to get my own, I have no idea what type of rat I want only that I want two. :lol:
> Though I'm tempted to get hairless now.


But..but...but....Ratties are better in groups of 3. :whistling2::Na_Na_Na_Na:



Ally said:


> (and apologies for going so off topic on your thread, I just can't help baiting them, it's like popping bulbblewrap - compulsive and you just can't stop!)


:no1:



Nebbz said:


> heres my Mr Zombie the day i got him! (having a bath as had poop on him! eurgh!)
> image


Eeeeeee! :flrt: He gorgeous, and this is going to sound really strange, but he's one of the most 'normal' looking nekkid Rats I've seen. I don't mean that harshly, but the nekkid Rats I have seen and handled usually look....less Rat-like? like, leggy and slim as opposed to tubby and slightly bulky like him. :flrt:


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> But..but...but....Ratties are better in groups of 3. :whistling2::Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> 
> :no1:
> ...



haha that was him at 6 weeks old! apparently i thought he was more 8 weeks! haha

Should see the fat lil begger now! His conformation is quite good for a hairless i know what you mean with the leggyness, and not quite right.

heres a slightly more recent picture, he is always too happy to get a good snap of him, he does that baby rat hop thing all the time its funny! not to mention always plays with you! He is by far my fave rat (personality wise) hes so sweet!


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## x Sarah x (Nov 16, 2007)

Mr Zombie is goooooooooorrrrrggggggeeeeeeooooouuuuuusssss :lol2:

Hairless rule :2thumb:


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## scoobylyn (Nov 24, 2009)

The camera lied in that pic as she has a very fine downy fur but is actually hairless just not pink. In the photo she looked like she had lots of fur but when you look at her in real life you can barely see it.


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## MistressSadako (Jan 17, 2009)

As mentioned on FR forum, she definately looks double rex and not hairless. You should be hoping she is double rex as that means less potential health problems.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Ally said:


> But you seem to think that everyone not breeding for show is an irresponsible twat.


Wrong. I said I think showing is important to breeding. If I said what you suggest then I would have to include myself as an irresponsible "twat", which I'm definitely not : victory:




> Although you may want to make it clear that *you* find it important for *your* breeding. Rather than wording it so that it sounds like it's actually the only way for someone to breed rats withough them being born and instantly dropping dead of a list of diseases. Which again, would prove my point about the show circle if that is actually what you do mean.


Wrong again. I've said a few times that I rarely show. But I do understand the reasons for showing and do think they're important. But as I breed marked rats, getting one to standard high enough for showing is like getting a needle out of a haystack. The big name marked breeders breed far more litters than I do, so they have more rats that come out show quality. I only breed now and again and mainly for pet, but if I get a show rat I'll use it and see if my breeding is going to plan. Luckily for me, I am friends with some judges who'll tell me how things are going, and also have Kathy who knows a good "typey" rat when she sees one, as I cant! All that's important to me is temperament and health, variety is just to narrow down the breeding plans a bit and give some sort of purpose.




> What if someone breeds show lines but doesn't show? We already established that with you they then count as a "BYB", so do the rats thenselves magically change genetically and in health as soon as someone else gets them?


No. That's ridiculous. A good breeder wont give rats to people who aren't breeding to better rats on a whole. If a BYB has got hold of breeder rats and wants to ruin them by adding in pet shop or feeder stock, then that's their problem. 



> I've never found show rats to live any longer or even be any healthier than a good pet rat.


I've found none of my breeding rats have had mammary tumours. The vast majority of my rescues, pet shop and irresponsibly bred does have.




> You are also making a very sweeping statement that ALL breeders except show breeders are evil, money grabbing monsters.


Nope, that's not what I said at all. I said anyone breeding purely for variety and profit are BYBs. Dont twist things to suit your own agenda.



> And personally I have found show breeders to be blinkered, self obsessed idiots.


Thankfully that statement is ridiculous, if it was so crap nobody would want to be part of it. Some of my best friends have come from the rat fancy, thank god for that too, I'd rather be friends with someone with decent ethics than friends with someone who would keep rats in a poor condition and breed for profit.



> Now since my sweeping statement has never been proven wrong and covers far less people than your rather wide-ranging one (and yours does include some rather odd beliefs - like show rats getting unhealthy when kept by non-show breeders).


Bollocks. No-one's said that apart from you. Nice try.



> I think we can conclude that I am right


Only child by any chance? Used to getting your own way?



> you can go back to your rock.


Thanks - any requests *pops on the Whitensnake* :whistling2:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Nebbz said:


> haha that was him at 6 weeks old! apparently i thought he was more 8 weeks! haha
> 
> Should see the fat lil begger now! His conformation is quite good for a hairless i know what you mean with the leggyness, and not quite right.
> 
> ...



N'awwwwwwwwwwwwwww :flrt: lush :flrt:


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

You're fun :flrt:



LisaLQ said:


> Wrong. I said I think showing is important to breeding. If I said what you suggest then I would have to include myself as an irresponsible "twat", which I'm definitely not : victory:


 Sure about that? You certainly come across as one...



LisaLQ said:


> Wrong again. I've said a few times that I rarely show. But I do understand the reasons for showing and do think they're important. But as I breed marked rats, getting one to standard high enough for showing is like getting a needle out of a haystack. The big name marked breeders breed far more litters than I do, so they have more rats that come out show quality. I only breed now and again and mainly for pet, but if I get a show rat I'll use it and see if my breeding is going to plan. Luckily for me, I am friends with some judges who'll tell me how things are going, and also have Kathy who knows a good "typey" rat when she sees one, as I cant! All that's important to me is temperament and health, variety is just to narrow down the breeding plans a bit and give some sort of purpose.


They breed a lot of rats, huh? Where do the many rejects go to? Culled for no use? Pets with the stipulation of 'no breeding'? Because I know how many rats/mice it takes to get the perfectly marked one, and there will be a LOT of rejects.
But pet breeders are also interested in type/temperament/health too, otherwise what's the point? Tbh, most feeder breeders are more interested in those than they need to be too - because it's the sensible thing to do and you make more money for selling a baby as a pet rat than you save by not having to buy a frozen one, it makes sense.
You're definitely implying that it doesn't matter to anyone that doesn't al least occasionally show.



LisaLQ said:


> No. That's ridiculous. A good breeder wont give rats to people who aren't breeding to better rats on a whole. If a BYB has got hold of breeder rats and wants to ruin them by adding in pet shop or feeder stock, then that's their problem.


Ruin them by breeding away from the inbred show lines? That's a bad idea?! Did you fail Biology at school? :hmm:
Or have you just been lucky enough to never come across how damaging breeding for 'line' and 'show' can be. You'll get there one day, and you'll understand. 



LisaLQ said:


> I've found none of my breeding rats have had mammary tumours. The vast majority of my rescues, pet shop and irresponsibly bred does have.


I've never had a rat with mammary tumours either. But the show line rats I've had have been plagued with tumorus in various other places. I was informed that I'd 'let' them live too long.
However, Knightly (the feeder-breeder-bred rat) who celebrated her 3rd birthday last month is sitting next to me and looking as good as when she was 10 weeks old. She has now lived a full 6 months longer than ANY show line rat I've kept. 
(and before you state that they must have been crap show rats, then I'd ask you to think about your lack of knowledge of where I maght have gotten any rats from, or even how many I've had, first  )



LisaLQ said:


> Nope, that's not what I said at all. I said anyone breeding purely for variety and profit are BYBs. Dont twist things to suit your own agenda.


*sigh* 
Re-read this. Still don't get it? Then I'm not going to bother explaining. Everyone else here get's it!



LisaLQ said:


> Thankfully that statement is ridiculous, if it was so crap nobody would want to be part of it. Some of my best friends have come from the rat fancy, thank god for that too, I'd rather be friends with someone with decent ethics than friends with someone who would keep rats in a poor condition and breed for profit.


People like that attract others like themselves, because no-one else wants them. So you end up with a big group of people that are very similar and totally unable to see beyond the rat world. You can hardly comment, you're the blinkered one looking from the inside out.
The many messages I've had from members on here over the last couple of days do summarise general opinion nicely. I'm genuinely surprised at how many people don't like you or yours, dispite my thoughts, everyone is entitled to an opinion - it seems most share mine!



LisaLQ said:


> Bollocks. No-one's said that apart from you. Nice try.


 I never said that everyone says the same (although it seems they do). What I said was that my sweeping statement is far less broad that your frankly rediculous one, and mine is (in my personal opinion, from the people have personally met and dealt with) entirely correct. As I said, no one has EVER proven me wrong.



LisaLQ said:


> Only child by any chance? Used to getting your own way?


I don't need to get my own way, I know I'm right. Therefore it matters not what you think!
And by being right, honest, and genuine means that I do generally get my own way, yes 

(btw, I have a sister and brother)


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## Exotic Mad (Jul 11, 2009)

Ally said:


> You're fun :flrt:
> 
> 
> Sure about that? You certainly come across as one...
> ...


i'm glad you've had lots of pms about this. its like the bullies at school. noone will say it on the forum but everyone but a select few agree


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Exotic Mad said:


> noone will say it on the forum but everyone but a select few agree


Don't be insane, people can't have _opinions_!!! :whip:




:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> Don't be insane, people can't have _opinions_!!! :whip:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not when the rat police are here.

back to topic.

I never really thought about hairless rats until i got my Mortisha she was ace! i would like more hairless rats but possibly boys this time round.


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## Raych (Mar 1, 2010)

LoveForLizards said:


> But..but...but....Ratties are better in groups of 3. :whistling2::Na_Na_Na_Na:


Should I get five :whistling2: :lol2:
I was just going to start with two, I know a rat I want a female in the pet shop near me, she's like yellow/orange/red colour and licked me through the bars.


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## Exotic Mad (Jul 11, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> Don't be insane, people can't have _opinions_!!! :whip:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


oooopsie i forgot again :lol2:


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

am i the only one who thinks this thread has gotten stupid? the op just wanted to tell people that she liked her hairless rats. but for my two pence worth:
1. dont tar everyone with the same brush, be it showers, breeders or people contributing to arguments. i showed my horses proffesionaly (sp) for years and in my experience you always remember the tw:censor:ts as there the loudest as they think the world reveloves around their voice but that dosent mean everyone is (i still have my freinds in the horse showing world and can assert that there lovely people). 

and

2. i will come out and say im not the biggest fan of hairless rats, dont get me wrong there cute an all but i like my pets to be snuggley and hair covered, but like i said: op yours are cute!

just had to get it off my chest. continue arguing among yourselves.


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