# European Old world Vipers – weakest viper venom?



## axlandslash44x (Jan 3, 2008)

Is this true?

Ammodytes

berus etc


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## nellyman89 (Mar 31, 2009)

I would say so, the meadow viper isn't even considered dangerous to humans


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## carpy (Nov 13, 2007)

there's a number of vipers in africa that arent considered particularly venomous either


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

axlandslash44x said:


> Is this true?
> 
> Ammodytes
> 
> berus etc


You need to be very very careful on this type of subject!

Neither _Vipera ammodytes_ or _Vipera berus_ should be under estimated with regards to the potential for harm from an envenomating bite!

A whole load of factors come into it like , health of the snake, health of the person on the end, age, sensitivity, amount of venom available, amount used during the bite and so on.

I've even heard perople describe an adder bite as a sting! (T8ssers)

Never take any bite from a venomous critter for granted because until you get tagged you have NO idea how your body will react........

Now i'll get off my soapbox!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

V.ammodytes is a serious snake, the most potent in Europe I believe.


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

I assume by "weakest" you mean lowest toxicity to humans? No LD50's have been carried out using humans as test subjects so its not possible to give a definitive answer. _V. berus_ have killed people in the past and every year cause a number of severe envenomations in the UK. In most of Europe we are lucky enough to enjoy good quality medical care and best of all - antivenom so fatalities are rare. This should not reflect on the potential danger posed by these snakes, they are very dangerous and capable of inflicting severe envenomations.

David.


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## bosvark75 (Feb 5, 2008)

*HI*



carpy said:


> there's a number of vipers in africa that arent considered particularly venomous either


The following from Southern Africa are considered mildly venomous and no antivenom is needed. _Bitis caudalis, Bitis cornuta, Bitis xeropaga, Bitis inornata, Bitis rubida, Bitis albanica, Bitis armata, Bitis schneideri, Bitis peringueyi and Causus defilippii._ 

Although no deaths have been recorded for some of the other small adders they are considered more toxic and on occasion antivenom is needed or is ineffective._ Bitis atropos, Causus rhombeatus and Proatheris superciliaris._ 

Thanks


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I wouldnt fancy a bite off of any of the Bitis species, dwarf or not


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## kenneally1 (Feb 17, 2009)

surely a bite from any venemous snake is serious whether its venom is considered mild or not


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

I would guess that dwarf _Bitis_ envenomations are generally not treated with antivenom because of the relatively low yield of venom, and the fact that an antivenom isn't produced (as far as I'm aware). The implications of snakebite are related to toxicity of venom and the quantity of venom delivered. Small snakes generally have small venom glands and correspondingly lower venom yields. Their toxicity to humans may be on a par with larger species that cause more severe envenomations.

David.


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## bosvark75 (Feb 5, 2008)

*Hi*



DavidR said:


> I would guess that dwarf _Bitis_ envenomations are generally not treated with antivenom because of the relatively low yield of venom, and the fact that an antivenom isn't produced (as far as I'm aware). The implications of snakebite are related to toxicity of venom and the quantity of venom delivered. Small snakes generally have small venom glands and correspondingly lower venom yields. Their toxicity to humans may be on a par with larger species that cause more severe envenomations.
> 
> David.


With regards to toxidity versus size is irrelevant, as new born Puff adders can give a serious bite yet dont produce as much venom as an adult. Many of the dwarf Bitis species produce a milder form of venom. 

The Boomslang _Dispholidus typus_ can reach nearly 2 meters in length produces barely 1mg of venom per bite, yet is potently heamotoxic and untreated will result in death up to 4 days after the bite.

All venomous snake bite should be treated as serious.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

does the SAMIR polyvalent not treat the smaller Bitis as well?


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## bosvark75 (Feb 5, 2008)

*HI*



SiUK said:


> does the SAMIR polyvalent not treat the smaller Bitis as well?


The SAMIR antivenom is not needed in the small Bitis species, so is never used on bite victims. It would sugest that the antivenom is not effective. I would say that you are likely to do more damage to yourself by using antivenom to treat bites by dwarf Bitis.

Antivenom is sometimes used for Causus rhombeatus bites and is effective, but for _Proatheris superciliaris _and_ Bitis atropos _antivenom is not effetive at all, although it has been tried with serious bite victims.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

bosvark75 said:


> The SAMIR antivenom is not needed in the small Bitis species, so is never used on bite victims. It would sugest that the antivenom is not effective. I would say that you are likely to do more damage to yourself by using antivenom to treat bites by dwarf Bitis.
> 
> Antivenom is sometimes used for Causus rhombeatus bites and is effective, but for _Proatheris superciliaris _and_ Bitis atropos _antivenom is not effetive at all, although it has been tried with serious bite victims.


hey mate, can you link me to any papers on the subject please?


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## snakekeeper (Oct 29, 2008)

Trust me you don't want to get tagged by a V.ammodytes (horned viper). I live here in Greece on a mountain where they are abundant. I have come across a few adults and have kept a couple for a few months to study. Last year a German tourist got tagged, he was 1.80cm, 14 stone and as fit as a fiddle. Within the first hour his blood pressure had dropped to 5 as he was rushed to hospital unconscious. He just about survived, apparently because a local had given him first aid. When I saw that on the news, believe me, I am dam careful when walking my dogs.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

snakekeeper said:


> Trust me you don't want to get tagged by a V.ammodytes (horned viper). I live here in Greece on a mountain where they are abundant. I have come across a few adults and have kept a couple for a few months to study. Last year a German tourist got tagged, he was 1.80cm, 14 stone and as fit as a fiddle. Within the first hour his blood pressure had dropped to 5 as he was rushed to hospital unconscious. Her barely survived. When I saw that on the news, believe me, I am dam carefully when walking my dogs.


Yeah they are a dangerous snake, I had one in my collection and I was always very careful, I have read some serious bite reports, a guy that got bitten by a neonate didnt think anything of it and 30 mins later he was on his back, Ludwig Tratnau had a very serious bite from one as well.


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## snakekeeper (Oct 29, 2008)

SiUK said:


> Yeah they are a dangerous snake, I had one in my collection and I was always very careful, I have read some serious bite reports, a guy that got bitten by a neonate didnt think anything of it and 30 mins later he was on his back, Ludwig Tratnau had a very serious bite from one as well.[/quote
> 
> They look the nuts but I have got great respect for them. I certainly wouldn't like to be bitten by one. I released the two I had back from where I found them. Too risky to maintain.


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## ScottGB (May 12, 2008)

Well I've just looked in a book the worlds most venomous by Mark O'Shea, And the Vipera Ammodytes is supposed to be the most venomous snake in Europe.
And for the Vipera Berus, there was 12 deaths in the 20th century. The last in 1975. Theres Vipera Ursini there's no known bites on record and V, Latastei that there's no that theres no confirmed fatalities. But then the inland Taipan has no recorded fatalities and thats the most venomous land snake known to man.


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## Morbid (Dec 11, 2006)

I think that _Macrovipera schweizeri_ and _Montivipera xanthina_ are more venomous then _Vipera ammodytes_..

Here´s an interesting page from Mario Schweiger´s site: http://www.vipersgarden.at/bite.php


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