# docking dogs tails



## shiftylou (Apr 27, 2008)

I just rescued a little patterdale x jack russell puppy who is ruffly 6months old. he was being kept in a shed and has not been trained at all. he had also been shipped around different homes and was not settled so I paid the girl who had him last in a hope to get him a proper home so tomorrow he is going to live with my mother inlaw and she is going to start from scratch with him and give him the best home he deserves!! His tail has been docked and I thought this was ilegal to do so? any reason why it has been done?


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

shiftylou said:


> I just rescued a little patterdale x jack russell puppy who is ruffly 6months old. he was being kept in a shed and has not been trained at all. he had also been shipped around different homes and was not settled so I paid the girl who had him last in a hope to get him a proper home so tomorrow he is going to live with my mother inlaw and she is going to start from scratch with him and give him the best home he deserves!! His tail has been docked and I thought this was ilegal to do so? any reason why it has been done?


I beleived it was too, with this new act on cosmetic procedures in place which prevents skunk descenting and the like. It's my view that only working dogs should be docked.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*tail docking*

its permissable for working dogs but has to be done by a vet.One in Grantham does it by laser.Realistically people still do it themselves though although they can be prosecuted and some have been.


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## Frogmad (Nov 10, 2008)

some people will do it themselves, vets SHOULD only do it when they have proof that the dogs are going to be sold as working stock and they have to microchip them at thesame time adn sign a big bunch of paperwork


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*vet docking*

a vet has already been done for docking a litter of rottweilers as well.


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## shiftylou (Apr 27, 2008)

Do you think he will of been microchipped then? going to take him to the vets next week to see about being neutered so will get him to scan him then


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*tail docking*

given the type of dog he is and the fact that hes been passed about I think its most likely to be a home docking.Even if he was micro chipped it would be difficult to prove anything on the docking.Breeders who have been prosecuted have been reported by people viewing the pups while still with the mother.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

sarahc said:


> given the type of dog he is and the fact that hes been passed about I think its most likely to be a home docking.Even if he was micro chipped it would be difficult to prove anything on the docking.Breeders who have been prosecuted have been reported by people viewing the pups while still with the mother.


 
Not just when seen with mum.
I know of a sucessfully one I reported. The new pup owners were totally unaware of the law change but when RSPCA went round, they had the pups checked by a vet as one had been very badly docked. The owner gave the details of the farm were he had got them, the farmer claimed some friend had walked on the farm and do it without his knowledge, which was rubbish, and yes he was prosicuted on DNA evidence from the parents which he still had.

The new owners still have both the pups.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*you live and learn*

DNA testing has altered everything hasn't it.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

shiftylou said:


> I just rescued a little patterdale x jack russell puppy who is ruffly 6months old. he was being kept in a shed and has not been trained at all. he had also been shipped around different homes and was not settled so I paid the girl who had him last in a hope to get him a proper home so tomorrow he is going to live with my mother inlaw and she is going to start from scratch with him and give him the best home he deserves!! His tail has been docked and I thought this was ilegal to do so? any reason why it has been done?


 perfectly legal if done by a vet on a dog meant to go to a working home.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

sarahc said:


> a vet has already been done for docking a litter of rottweilers as well.


personally I can't see how or why he was 'done'. All he had to say is that a couple of people expressed an interest in usuing them for fox and rat control or for using as unique gundogs.
IMO the law is stupid. There should have been a 100% no exceptions ban like there is in Europe, but as usual, our government goes about stuff half arsed in order not to upset anyone.


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## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

you will know if its legal as he will defo have a microchip , i microchip and am not allowed to touch dogs who have been docked as they would be done already, should have a implanter number on his paperwork of who done it, but without paperwork theres not much chance

cheri


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

If he's chipped Petlog can trace the owner via chipper as even online registrations by authorised chippers are logged in using their personal ID number. This gives the company ie PD for Pet Detect whom I use and the chippers personal ID, they can then be contacted directly by authorities or whoever needs to for prosecution purposes.


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

If it was bred in Ireland then it is perfectly legal over there to Dock. I know of someone at the Dog club i go to who has a Boxer pup which is Docked, the breeder moved to Ireland to get round the ban here. Sadly docked Dogs can't be shown at any show where the public has access too :2thumb:.

Working Dogs are docked to save injury to their tails, a long tail can & will get caught up in undergrowth & the risk of injury is very high, hence why they are docked. If you want a litter of pups docked for working you have to prove where they are going to be worked b4 the vet will dock them. Loads of paperwork showing permission etc.. from land owners :2thumb:.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*vet that got done for docking*

A woman has received a life ban from dealing in animals after she admitted arranging to have the tails of nine puppies cut off.
Caroline Hall, 40, of Laburnum Road, Humberstone, admitted at Market Harborough Magistrates' Court causing and permitting the tails of the Rottweiler puppies to be removed, contrary to section six of the Animal Welfare Act 2006.
As well as the dealer ban, she was also fined £1,200 and ordered to pay £350 costs and a £15 court surcharge.
In the case brought by the RSPCA, Hall also admitted providing false information to a veterinary surgeon for the purpose of having the dogs' tails removed.
The Act makes it illegal for tails to be docked unless certification is provided to show that the dogs will be used for a legitimate working purpose.
 

The puppies, advertised for sale in a free magazine, were taken to a vets by Hall, who produced three forged letters, alleged to be from prospective owners, which said the dogs were to be working dogs.
In mitigation, the defendant said she was sorry and ashamed.
The vet will appear at Leicester Magistrates' Court on Thursday, June 4, at 2pm


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*vet that got done*



fenwoman said:


> personally I can't see how or why he was 'done'. .


*Puppies' tails docked by vet*

A vet with 28 years' experience could be struck off after he illegally docked the tails of 14 puppies.
Yesterday, a court fined Ade Jolaosho £10,000 and ordered him to pay £3,015 costs.
Former university lecturer Jolaosho pleaded guilty


If you click on the title you get the story,it says the breed of dog doesn't qualify as a working breed.


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Legally docked dogs can only be shown, worked etc at an event where the Public DO NOT have to pay an entry fee


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

i DONT think they should be a total ban on docking having seen the damage to spaniel tails when working it is less painful for them to have it done when pups than having to go through the pain of damaging it when older then an op.

heres a friends spaniel that was used in the campaign for working dogs to be exempt


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

bosshogg said:


> i DONT think they should be a total ban on docking having seen the damage to spaniel tails when working it is less painful for them to have it done when pups than having to go through the pain of damaging it when older then an op.
> 
> heres a friends spaniel that was used in the campaign for working dogs to be exempt


 
Ruby used to bash hell out her tail when we got her as she had been skin clipped. After letting her tail grow long and shaggy, she hasn't had a problem since, but good, sometimes you wish she would just stop wagging it and battering the hell out of everything and her tail, she dosen't seem to even notice at all.
But I do love her tail.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

all the fuss over tail docking and ear cropping there... it's no big deal here in america... if you don't like it then don't... 


that's here... we don't have all these people getting all up in your business like there in the u.k..... telling you what you can and can't do...


look at what them u.k. folks do to themselves!... big amazon ear plugs... all kinds of crazy stuff... yet that's just fine...


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*yuk*

is that ghastly apparition a real human:gasp:I assume the difference that he chose to mutilate/enhance himself.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

corny girl said:


> Working Dogs are docked to save injury to their tails, a long tail can & will get caught up in undergrowth & the risk of injury is very high, hence why they are docked. .


 MAy I ask if you have working breeds or have any experience with gundogs with tails? I have. I bred cockers for nearly 20 years. My cockers, standard poodle and other breeds would go through brambles./ They go through head first, meaning the face, muzzle and ears get torn first. By the time the tail comes through the larger body part will have shoved a tunnel so the tail does nopt actually sustain damage. That was a lie put about by the pro docking fraternity in order to generate support for mutilating their dogs.
Now I notice they don't advocate the chopping off of ear flaps because of the damage they sustain when going through thickets.
Nor do I see it advocated that whippets and greyhounds get docked. Now they really do need it because their thin bony tails get split and damaged simply by wagging it indoors. I see a goodly number of greyhounds locally which shortened tails where they've had to have part of it amputated because of this damage.
I was anti docking before it became law. As a person who used to dock her own puppies I can tell you that I hated doing it but was persuaded by more experienced breeders that I'd never be able to sell puppies nor get placed in shows etc. 3 day old puppies were supposed to feel less pain, but scientific research has show that they actually suffer more pain than an adult. The puppies all cried when the tail was cut off and all grizzled for hours afterwards.I hated doing it and eventually decided that I would not dock, no matter what anyone said. I joined the anti docking alliance and found that there were plenty of people who wanted undocked puppies.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

bosshogg said:


> i DONT think they should be a total ban on docking having seen the damage to spaniel tails when working it is less painful for them to have it done when pups than having to go through the pain of damaging it when older then an op.
> 
> heres a friends spaniel that was used in the campaign for working dogs to be exempt


 How did the tail get damaged but not the ear flaps if the thorns were so sharp? Exactly how did the very tip of the tail get split when it's well fleshed and thickly covered with fur?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

HABU said:


> all the fuss over tail docking and ear cropping there... it's no big deal here in america... if you don't like it then don't...
> 
> 
> that's here... we don't have all these people getting all up in your business like there in the u.k..... telling you what you can and can't do...
> ...



The difference is that he had a choice. Nobody forced it upon him and nobody wanted to chop bits of him off without anaesthetic.


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> perfectly legal if done by a vet on a dog meant to go to a working home.


Not in Scotland it isn't - the law is not the same as it is in England.


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

The tail docking of all dogs, working or otherwise, was banned in Scotland in 2007, despite campaigning carried out over many years by individuals and representative organisations. Under parallel legislation, an exemption exists in England and Wales that allows vets to dock the tails of puppies destined to become working gundogs.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

ambyglam said:


> The tail docking of all dogs, working or otherwise, was banned in Scotland in 2007, despite campaigning carried out over many years by individuals and representative organisations. Under parallel legislation, an exemption exists in England and Wales that allows vets to dock the tails of puppies destined to become working gundogs.


 That's really interesting. I wonder how many tails have been injured since the ban? Do you know where such figures and data might be found.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*tail docking*



fenwoman said:


> The puppies all cried when the tail was cut off and all grizzled for hours afterwards.


I also had this experience,I could never accept now that tail docking isn't very painful and in most cases not required.The only thing I do think about it is that there are far worse animal cruelties and I would have liked to see the same effort put into some of these that has been put into pet dogs.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> How did the tail get damaged but not the ear flaps if the thorns were so sharp? Exactly how did the very tip of the tail get split when it's well fleshed and thickly covered with fur?


the tail got damaged while working brambles and because spaniels love there jobs there tails wagging so quick that it catches on everything and then ends in damage and thats why the ear flaps dont get damaged

I have seen this first hand on quite a few undocked spaniels and is the main reason any working spaniel I have (probably cocker) will be docked


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

all new owners have to fill out the below statement when they buy a pup that has been docked

PURCHASERS STATEMENT (TO BE RETAINED BY BREEDER) 


I insert purchaser name...........................................confirm that I have today insert date purchased the puppy identified by microchip number insert microchip number from insert breeders name................. 

I understand that this puppy was docked in accordance with the Animal Welfare Act 2006, and that it must be intended for use in one of the following activities; 

Law enforcement 
Activities of HM armed forces 
Emergency Rescue 
Lawful pest control 
Lawful shooting of animals 

I confirm that I intend to train the puppy for use in one or more of the stated activities. 

Signed; insert purchaser signature 

Name;	print name........................... 

Address;	insert purchaser address..



All pups I have seen docked, mainly terriers and cocker spaniels, never showed any sign of pain or discomfort, as it should be if the pup is docked properly 

you can find more info on the council of docked breeds website 
Tail docking information from the Council of Docked Breeds


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> The difference is that he had a choice. Nobody forced it upon him and nobody wanted to chop bits of him off without anaesthetic.


 a proper docking is done under anesthesia by a vet here in america... stitches are required to make a dice, clean dock...

we just don't lop off a doberman's tail and call it a day...:lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

bosshogg said:


> the tail got damaged while working brambles and because spaniels love there jobs there tails wagging so quick that it catches on everything and then ends in damage and thats why the ear flaps dont get damaged
> 
> I have seen this first hand on quite a few undocked spaniels and is the main reason any working spaniel I have (probably cocker) will be docked


 Hmmm yet I found exactly the opposit with my cockers. They ended up with earflaps which were almost fringed at the ends but never any tail damage as the briars tended to catch in the thick fur and not the actual skin of the tail.
I can't see on the photo any kind of wound which could exlain the sheer volume of blood up the dogs flanks and indeed, how it even got spread over the flanks where it is spread unless the dog is able to bend its tail right around and thump itself on the ribs with it. Never seen any dog able to do this feat. There was a suggestion that a gory photo used by the pro docking brigade, was indeed faked so as to scare people into supporting their cause, and indeed no actual statistics or veterinary records were available to support their stance on docking. In fact evidence in copuntries where working dogs have full tails, has shown that there is very little tail damage at all to working dogs.
The whole docking debate is nonsense really because the pro dockers cannot come up with substantiated facts and simply quote a lot of if's, but's and maybe's. None of them can explain why a spaniel needs to be mutilated, but a labrador not, or why a large munsterlander is fine with a tail but a German short haired pointer not but an english pointer is fine with a tail. Howabout terriers? Why do they not have tails? 
Basically it is simply about how a dog looks and nothing about it's welfare.
What right do humans have, to chop bits off dogs because they 'might' injure themselves at some point in the future? Perhaps an all round hunting ban would be best, then the pro dockers will have no excuse to carry on docking their tiny helpless puppies and feeling no remorse at all at their feeble screams of protest as the scissor blades bite though bone and sinew?:bash:


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

bosshogg said:


> i DONT think they should be a total ban on docking having seen the damage to spaniel tails when working it is less painful for them to have it done when pups than having to go through the pain of damaging it when older then an op.
> 
> heres a friends spaniel that was used in the campaign for working dogs to be exempt




See this sort of thing quite often in Greyhounds who have "happy tail" where their tail is never still (oops, sorry Racing Greyhounds aren't happy at all, they just sit & mope & never ever wag their tails as they are all meant to be mistreated :Na_Na_Na_Na. They whip their tails about & the blood gets everywhere, up their sides over you if you don't get out the way quick!!! I know this is a different injury but just pointing out that a small wound can produce large amounts of blood that gets everywhere.


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> I can't see on the photo any kind of wound which could exlain the sheer volume of blood up the dogs flanks and indeed, how it even got spread over the flanks where it is spread unless the dog is able to bend its tail right around and thump itself on the ribs with it. Never seen any dog able to do this feat.



You've never met a Greyhound with "happy tail" then? It gets up their sides & up over their flanks. The blood gets everywhere & trying to bandage it up is an art in itself believe me i've tried on loads :2thumb:.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> Hmmm yet I found exactly the opposit with my cockers. They ended up with earflaps which were almost fringed at the ends but never any tail damage as the briars tended to catch in the thick fur and not the actual skin of the tail.
> I can't see on the photo any kind of wound which could exlain the sheer volume of blood up the dogs flanks and indeed, how it even got spread over the flanks where it is spread unless the dog is able to bend its tail right around and thump itself on the ribs with it. Never seen any dog able to do this feat. There was a suggestion that a gory photo used by the pro docking brigade, was indeed faked so as to scare people into supporting their cause, and indeed no actual statistics or veterinary records were available to support their stance on docking. In fact evidence in copuntries where working dogs have full tails, has shown that there is very little tail damage at all to working dogs.
> The whole docking debate is nonsense really because the pro dockers cannot come up with substantiated facts and simply quote a lot of if's, but's and maybe's. None of them can explain why a spaniel needs to be mutilated, but a labrador not, or why a large munsterlander is fine with a tail but a German short haired pointer not but an english pointer is fine with a tail. Howabout terriers? Why do they not have tails?
> Basically it is simply about how a dog looks and nothing about it's welfare.
> What right do humans have, to chop bits off dogs because they 'might' injure themselves at some point in the future? Perhaps an all round hunting ban would be best, then the pro dockers will have no excuse to carry on docking their tiny helpless puppies and feeling no remorse at all at their feeble screams of protest as the scissor blades bite though bone and sinew?:bash:


Labradors have very thick fur on there tails so normally dont damage theres like a spaniel that has less hair my old guy ty damages his tail once when he was working in some dense cover and we had to put a cartridge on the end to keep it from getting worse and tape it off poor boy 

Terriers are docked for working

Pointers dont work cover like spaniels they "point" were spaniels hunt and tend to be used more in the heather than thick cover, so again they wont damage tail

Vets dont chomp through the bone to dock, as I said on other post all the info you want is one CDB website but most vets use banding bit like what they do with lambs, no pain, cuts off blood supply and then in about three days the tail drops off 

hunting ban is a different topic, I always respect people who do not hunt but i will protect a sport i love dearly if i need to, but i will ask for you to respect my views as well, but this thread is not about hunting it is about docking so thats all I will say on the subject


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

corny girl said:


> You've never met a Greyhound with "happy tail" then? It gets up their sides & up over their flanks. The blood gets everywhere & trying to bandage it up is an art in itself believe me i've tried on loads :2thumb:.


Yep been there seen that. But you dont see people complaining about not being able to dock them.

IMO the majority of people who agree with docking use their job as an excuse for them to look "right".

There is no reason for lopping off a tail unless it is already damaged. It's like me cutting off my kids arms in case they break one.

Actually, as it's one of their methods of communication, it's like lopping off my kids tongues. And the fact I'm on the computer instead of celebrating the new year with them in the living room is because I wish I could!:lol2:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> Actually, as it's one of their methods of communication, it's like lopping off my kids tongues. And the fact I'm on the computer instead of celebrating the new year with them in the living room is because I wish I could!:lol2:


Have to say, I've seen plenty of dogs without their tails and they NEVER have a problem with 'communication'. A remember an article a while ago stating that dogs with docked tails would grow up 'aggressive' and 'timid', but I and 100's if not 1000's of people would beg to differ, as if that was true there'd be no way that hunters would have it done as a timid or aggressive dog simply will not do out in the field, as it couldn't be respectively worked properly in groups, which is often an aim for hunters.

Also, it's rubbish to say that it's like lopping off a childs arm, as you know as well as I do that it's nothing like that!


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

corny girl said:


> You've never met a Greyhound with "happy tail" then? It gets up their sides & up over their flanks. The blood gets everywhere & trying to bandage it up is an art in itself believe me i've tried on loads :2thumb:.


not greyhounds but my lurchers. I've had plenty whip their tails and split them and as you say,blood goes everywhere, up the walls and all over the place, but thanks to centrifugal forces the blood is sprayed about away from the body and never onto it's ribs. I still can't see how a tail injury would lead to blood being smeared over a dog's ribs. It's impossible.
Try a wet tea towel and start flicking it about around you. You'll get walls floor, doors etc wet, but unless you lash your body and the wet teatowel actually makes contact with your body, you won't get a drop on you. Unless you live in some strange ani gravity type world :lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

bosshogg said:


> Labradors have very thick fur on there tails so normally dont damage theres like a spaniel that has less hair my old guy ty damages his tail once when he was working in some dense cover and we had to put a cartridge on the end to keep it from getting worse and tape it off poor boy
> 
> Terriers are docked for working
> 
> ...


 I suggest you tie an elastic band tight around one of your fingers. Leave it on for several hours and then come back and say it isn't at all painful or unpleasant.
And I still don't understand how terriers can damage their tails while hunting. Why does the pro docking brigade ignore data from countries which have an outright docking ban and say that their working gundogs sustain no damage?


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> not greyhounds but my lurchers. I've had plenty whip their tails and split them and as you say,blood goes everywhere, up the walls and all over the place, but thanks to centrifugal forces the blood is sprayed about away from the body and never onto it's ribs. I still can't see how a tail injury would lead to blood being smeared over a dog's ribs. It's impossible.
> Try a wet tea towel and start flicking it about around you. You'll get walls floor, doors etc wet, but unless you lash your body and the wet teatowel actually makes contact with your body, you won't get a drop on you. Unless you live in some strange ani gravity type world :lol2:


Sorry but i have witnessed plenty of Greyhounds who have split the end of their tail open & come out of their kennel with blood everywhere including over their bodies (ribs, thighs, flanks, even on their heads). Don't ask me how it gets there but it does :gasp:. Their tails are very fine & whip like & the ends have a mind of their own & whip about all over the place splashing blood as they go. Cold weather seems to affect them more for some reason. Don't get it so much in the summer time. We have had Greyhounds who have had to have the ends of their tails amputated as they just will not heal up. It doesn't seem to affect them racing. Most Lurchers tend to have a bit more feathering over their tails as most have Collie, Deerhound, Beddlington etc.. in which have more feathering on than a pure Greyhound, but yes they can still damage them.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I dont agree with tail docking and remember a few years ago when someone ringed the tails of a litter of 10 Rottie pups. The pups became ill and every one of them developed septicemia and died


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## deerhound (Jul 19, 2009)

Since the docking ban i have noticed that more dogs now still have thier dew claws. The majority of breeders would also snip these off as they bleed like hell and are painful if the dog catches them. 
Ive seen many a pup docked and de dew clawed which have not even woken up once sniped properly.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

I don't agree with tail docking for cosmetic reasons (personally, I think dogs with docked tails look awful! I much prefer natural tails) and I don't agree with doing it without anaesthetic, though I don't think there should be an out right ban on it.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

deerhound said:


> Since the docking ban i have noticed that more dogs now still have thier dew claws. The majority of breeders would also snip these off as they bleed like hell and are painful if the dog catches them.
> Ive seen many a pup docked and de dew clawed which have not even woken up once sniped properly.


 How many dogs have you personally known with ripped dew claws? I have currently got 25 dogs, all with dew claws, all run about on my smallholding and across fields, through brambles etc when we go along the drains. Never in over 30 years with a large number of dogs, has one ever ripped a dew claw off. Why is it that domesticated dogs suffer all these terrible things like ripped dew claws, split tails, choking on raw bones, yet wild canids survive and thrive as mother nature made them?


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## clairebear1984 (Dec 13, 2009)

i saw a boxer puppya few days ago with a docked tail x


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## deerhound (Jul 19, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> How many dogs have you personally known with ripped dew claws? I have currently got 25 dogs, all with dew claws, all run about on my smallholding and across fields, through brambles etc when we go along the drains. Never in over 30 years with a large number of dogs, has one ever ripped a dew claw off. Why is it that domesticated dogs suffer all these terrible things like ripped dew claws, split tails, choking on raw bones, yet wild canids survive and thrive as mother nature made them?


Ive seen many which has ripped one clean out whilst out in the field. I would be interested in knowing if dog anti tail dockers are so passionate against the farmers doing their Sheep and Pigs tails. I bet they are not so carefull as dog breeders. Also Manx cat breeders who cut off the stumps of kittens.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> I suggest you tie an elastic band tight around one of your fingers. Leave it on for several hours and then come back and say it isn't at all painful or unpleasant.
> And I still don't understand how terriers can damage their tails while hunting. Why does the pro docking brigade ignore data from countries which have an outright docking ban and say that their working gundogs sustain no damage?


i would love to see your data I have hunting friend all over the world, and most are docked, or have had to have ops, later in life due to injury


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

deerhound said:


> Since the docking ban i have noticed that more dogs now still have thier dew claws. The majority of breeders would also snip these off as they bleed like hell and are painful if the dog catches them.
> Ive seen many a pup docked and de dew clawed which have not even woken up once sniped properly.


 I'm sorry but you are either delusional, or telling fibs, or have only seen aneasthatise puppies being docked. As a breeder who showed docked breeds many years ago, and who docked puppies herself, I can tell you that it hurts them and they yelp when their tail is cut off and their thumbs snipped off. What 3 day old puppy, unless there was something wrong with it, would not wake up when a human lifts it from the nest where it was asleep, and slices off a part of it's body.
The thing I hate most about the pro docking brigade is the outright lies they tell. The one thing I hate most of all in the world, is a liar. I have friends who are thieves, I know people who have been inside for doing bad things. I will invite them to my home and offer them hospitality and can trust them to an extent. But you can never trust a liar cos you never know when he is lying most of the time. But puppies staying fast asleep when they get picked up out of the nest and having part of their body cut off with scissors?








(probably going to get into trouble for this)


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## Normesby (Dec 27, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> How many dogs have you personally known with ripped dew claws? I have currently got 25 dogs, all with dew claws, all run about on my smallholding and across fields, through brambles etc when we go along the drains. Never in over 30 years with a large number of dogs, has one ever ripped a dew claw off. Why is it that domesticated dogs suffer all these terrible things like ripped dew claws, split tails, choking on raw bones, yet wild canids survive and thrive as mother nature made them?


 
I've seen LOTS of working dogs injure their dew claws......some to the point the vet has had to remove them.

Also please tell me which wild dogs have dews.........AWD's dont have them, pure wolves dont have them......which do ?

Why has mother nature allowed wild canids to evolve without dews ?............i'd say its because they cause problems !

Wolves dont have dew claws.......http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3602741.stm

AWD'S don't have dew claws ........http://www.animalcorner.co.uk/wildlife/africawilddog.html


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Normesby said:


> I've seen LOTS of working dogs injure their dew claws......some to the point the vet has had to remove them.


 How many are 'lots'? I'm very surprised, that if the risk is so great, that the breeders of gundogs don't remove the dewclaws at the same time that they amputate the tails. Why is it only gundogs suffer these wounds? Why do not of my country dogs, not suffer them even when they go through bramble thickets and hawthorn hedges?
How come, many moons ago, when I regularly worked as a beater, I never saw injuries as have been described?


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## Normesby (Dec 27, 2009)

I wasn't talking about gundogs......pease dont assume.

I was talking running dogs.

Please see my edited post above.


Also this problem seems to have been discussed before, at least two members have had dogs with torn/damaged dews.........you comment yourself Fenwoman about dews growing round and into the leg.....ouch

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/other-pets-exotics/199038-torn-off-dew-claw-2.html


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## deerhound (Jul 19, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> I'm sorry but you are either delusional, or telling fibs, or have only seen aneasthatise puppies being docked. As a breeder who showed docked breeds many years ago, and who docked puppies herself, I can tell you that it hurts them and they yelp when their tail is cut off and their thumbs snipped off. What 3 day old puppy, unless there was something wrong with it, would not wake up when a human lifts it from the nest where it was asleep, and slices off a part of it's body.
> The thing I hate most about the pro docking brigade is the outright lies they tell. The one thing I hate most of all in the world, is a liar. I have friends who are thieves, I know people who have been inside for doing bad things. I will invite them to my home and offer them hospitality and can trust them to an extent. But you can never trust a liar cos you never know when he is lying most of the time. But puppies staying fast asleep when they get picked up out of the nest and having part of their body cut off with scissors?
> image
> (probably going to get into trouble for this)


 
I hope you are not suggesting that im a liar . Maybe you could explain how you docked ?, which type scissors you used, preperation, aftercare? Something dont sound right that you had puppies in pain for hours later. Ive never heard of this in my more than 30 years with dogs. Nor has my parents and grandparents who have docked since they where young. 
Im proud to say that i dont know any thieves and i would never invite one into my house :gasp:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

people do what they feel is alright... then never mind the others...

my doberman was done at the vets and his work looked better than human surgeons... i kid you not... the dog showed no signs of discomfort during the very brief healing period...

there were no tin snipes...

his ears were cropped very nicely and the dog just rolled with it as if it was only strange at times...

maybe i was lucky and had a serious vet but he could operate on me any time!:lol2:


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Why is it dogs you'd expect to be tampered with,Aren't ?.

Fox hounds aren't touched in any way.Yet they have long heavy tails,Long flappy ears.And dew claws.And they are a fully working breed.
Surely if tail spilling was such a issue for working breeds surely it would happen to fox hound but the breed has never been on the docking list.









And why would little working terrier need docking ?.As far as i'm aware terriers are know for tail spitting.

What the differance between a pet pointer and a working pointer.When a pointer pet or working goes out.And pointer dose what a pointer does.So why is the worker dock but not the pet.They can both get in the same scrapes. 

Why are people going on about Grey hound there not a docking breed.Are people saying they should be.Why try and defend docking with a breed not even on the list.

The word here is Percent.A percent of dogs tail split not all.So deal with it as it comes.Meny people brake there little finger.Why not just chop the off when born.As We don't really use them.


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## Normesby (Dec 27, 2009)

No one mentioned greyhounds.....well i certainly didn't, i did however generalise 'running dogs' as having problems with dew claws.....nothing to do with tail docking.


Still waiting for an answer as to why wolves and AWD's dont have dew claws ?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Normesby said:


> No one mentioned greyhounds.....well i certainly didn't, i did however generalise 'running dogs' as having problems with dew claws.....nothing to do with tail docking.
> 
> 
> *Still waiting for an answer as to why wolves and AWD's dont have dew claws ?*




*Wolves do have dew claws*
*http://naturescrusaders.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/wolvesjp.jpg*


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## Normesby (Dec 27, 2009)

PURE wolves do not.....dew claws on wolves are a proven sign that there has been hybridisation with domestic dog in the past. This is proven through dna testing.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Normesby said:


> Still waiting for an answer as to why wolves and AWD's dont have dew claws ?


*The below Canidae species all have dew claws.*

Arctic wolf.









Grey wolf.









Red wolf.









Coyote.









Dhole-(Asian hunting dog).









Dingo-(Pure fraser island).


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Normesby said:


> PURE wolves do not.....dew claws on wolves are a proven sign that there has been hybridisation with domestic dog in the past. This is proven through dna testing.


If you read this article it tells you that this is only rear dew claws in wolves
BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Claws reveal wolf survival threat


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

bosshogg said:


> i would love to see your data I have hunting friend all over the world, and most are docked, or have had to have ops, later in life due to injury


Before anyone jumps to conclusions, I'm not anti-hunting....but, if this is the case, and "most" dogs need protecting from injury, why on earth would anyone take their dog out in the first place?

It's ridiculous, "most" dogs would not get injured, that's like suggesting that everyone's dogs if out for a good run in the countryside should have their tails docked "just in case".

I dont understand why anyone would dock as a preventative measure. Shall I have a mastectomy in case I "might" get cancer? Even that isn't a good comparison, because cancer is fatal, a bleeding tail isnt.

"Most" dogs wouldn't get hurt at all, just "most" owners of the docked breeds prefer the old style look and will use the dog's job as an excuse to make them look "nice".


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

HABU said:


> people do what they feel is alright... then never mind the others...
> 
> my doberman was done at the vets and his work looked better than human surgeons... i kid you not... the dog showed no signs of discomfort during the very brief healing period...
> 
> ...


Let him crop your ears then, and see how painful it is.

Gross. Poor dog.


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## clairebear1984 (Dec 13, 2009)

year cropping ears is horrible just to make them look vicours (bad spelling) 

also in my opinion (if am allowed one) dogs shouldnt be docked they where born with a tail, so y do we decide to dock them, oh yea kc otherwise they wouldnt be able to show. yes i have a boxer and hes docked, we didnt want him docked we wanted the tail but it was to late. Hes our first dog where that breed is docked, so didnt realise when they did it x


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

clairebear1984 said:


> year cropping ears is horrible just to make them look vicours (bad spelling)
> 
> also in my opinion (if am allowed one) dogs shouldnt be docked they where born with a tail, so y do we decide to dock them, oh yea kc otherwise they wouldnt be able to show. yes i have a boxer and hes docked, we didnt want him docked we wanted the tail but it was to late. Hes our first dog where that breed is docked, so didnt realise when they did it x


yet another ignorant individual. You can't show a dog that is docked if it has been docked past the date of the ban!!! It's nothing to do with showing!!


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*docking of pedigree dogs*

Before the docking ban I found that people who wanted a docked breed wouldn't want to buy a puppy if its tail was long.They weren't familiar with a long tailed version,it appeared alien.If you had a pet breed that was normally docked and the tail was left long it would be a problem, even if wrongly to home them.Thats obviously changed now and for the pet breeds at least ,its great to see them natural.i must admit I'm sceptical of the need to dock workers but never having worked a dog,I can't claim to know.Ear cropping is surely plain wrong.If you want a breed with pricked ears why not breed for the trait?


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> How many are 'lots'? I'm very surprised, that if the risk is so great, that the breeders of gundogs don't remove the dewclaws at the same time that they amputate the tails. Why is it only gundogs suffer these wounds? Why do not of my country dogs, not suffer them even when they go through bramble thickets and hawthorn hedges?
> How come, many moons ago, when I regularly worked as a beater, I never saw injuries as have been described?


because the spaniels are docked so the injury doesn't happen and dew claws are more of an injury on running dogs than retrievers


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

LisaLQ said:


> Before anyone jumps to conclusions, I'm not anti-hunting....but, if this is the case, and "most" dogs need protecting from injury, why on earth would anyone take their dog out in the first place?
> 
> It's ridiculous, "most" dogs would not get injured, that's like suggesting that everyone's dogs if out for a good run in the countryside should have their tails docked "just in case".
> 
> ...


Most spaniels i know are docked so do not get injured, but of the half dozen spaniels i know working with tails half of these have had injury and one had to have its tail operated on and three inches removed, as it kept injuring it when out shooting, to a point were the owner was thinking of retiring it at only 2yr old, what is not far on the dog as they love there job

I dont think they look better docked or undocked as I care more about its working ability than what they look like, but mine will be docked as i dont want it to injury its tail when out on the shoots, 

for the person that said about hounds (foxhounds) if you look at the tail of the foxhound it is actually well haired and is carried high on the body were on the spaniel it is carried lower, so when they are hunting it is above the scrub, and also spaniels and foxhounds hunt in two total different styles
spaniels go into cover and hunt around under it, fox hounds tend to bull doze over it 


this is going to be a debate no one is ever going to agree one, so think it is best to say you have your views i respect that, I have mine so please respect mine : victory:

also i direct you to tis page letters from some owners who have had working dogs with injuries 
Letters from owners of tail damaged dogs


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Can you give a rough idea of the percentage of undocked working dogs who have had their tails damaged though? I think it would be impossible to say either way as most of them are docked to begin with.

I dont see the purpose in docking a dog on the (at most - guess work here) 5-10% chance of an injury. If ALL dogs were injured in their work I could understand it.

I'm not saying I think working dogs shouldn't be docked, as if there was any argument for docking it is that, but I do wonder how much risk the animals are at really.

I've seen a few greyhounds with damaged tails, if any dog had a smidgeon of a reason for docking it'd be them - but they are not routinely docked because - even though they are at higher risk than a pet dog - the risks are not high enough to warrant removing part of their body.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

LisaLQ said:


> Can you give a rough idea of the percentage of undocked working dogs who have had their tails damaged though? I think it would be impossible to say either way as most of them are docked to begin with.
> 
> I dont see the purpose in docking a dog on the (at most - guess work here) 5-10% chance of an injury. If ALL dogs were injured in their work I could understand it.
> 
> ...


greyhounds need there tails though as they use it as a rudder when running so docking a greyhound would affect its racing 

i dont the percentage as I dont own spaniels I work labradors so not really looked into it in great detail I can only go on personal experience


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

I wasn't going to post on this thread but too many things are coming up which are untrue so here's a bit of history on the docking issue.

Tail docking in the UK came about as a form of tax avoidance, until the tax levie was repealed in 1796 any animal with a tail longer than a man's thumb was liable for a tax ergo sheep, pigs, dogs etc were docked. The earliest traceable reasons for tail docking goes back to Roman times when it was believed if they docked a tail and left 'strings' hanging it would frighten the evil spirits away from invading the dogs body - surmised to be a way of avoiding Rabies.

There is actually an EU Directive banning tail docking in pigs unless all other means of preventing tail biting have failed. Unfortuantely this directive/law is not enforced in the UK, basically pigs bite each others tails through boredom and stress. All it takes is a decent amount of room and straw/bedding of some description for them to route in to put an end to tail biting. Sheep are only docked in the main by commercial wool farmers, other European Short tailed breeds don't need to be docked plus any that are docked are NOT permitted to be docked too short. There has to be enough tail to cover the anus, average a mans hands width - any shorter and it becomes a well documented welfare issue. A tail on any animal is attached via muscle and nerves to the body cut it too short and they suffer damage increasing the risk of prolapse to the anus and/or vagina. This is proven fact which led to the regulations re docking in sheep being no shorter than a specific length.

Neonates of any mammal species are actually Hypersensitive to pain compared to their adult counterparts. They exhibit the same behaviours and when bloods are taken have the same hormonal responses to any painful stimuli at a far earlier stage than adult animals. 1991 saw an amendment to the Veterinary Surgeons act 1966, in force 1993, making it illegal for anyone other than a Vet to dock tails.
2001 Breed standards were changed by all clubs via the KC issuing guidance for a tailed as well as docked standard with purpose for docking being noted. Some of us have been showing undocked dogs of a docked breed for many yrs. 6th April 2007 a docking ban with some exemptions for working breeds came into force for the UK, 28th March 2007 for Wales and a FULL ban no exemptions in Scotland on 30th April 2007. If you are buying a docked puppy you need to see the vets certificate proving that said animal was docked legally.

Puppies when docked go back to their mothers suckle and then sleep all seems very acceptable until you realise what's going on physiologically within their tiny bodies. Stress hormones, cortisol, inflamed nerve endings all screaming to the brain, stop this. Sleep is a natural defence the brain shuts down all unnecessary functions to allow the energy to be used for tissue repair. This is also seen in abused children they spend far more time sleeping than a happy child due to the stress of their abuse its system shut down till the threats gone away.

I have held both lambs, piglets and puppies when they were docked and chickens when debeaked, some died, some screamed others shut down non failed to respond in some manner. I am from a farming family with working springers, jackies and of course the obligatory herding dog, by 1965 my gfather stopped docking all his stock. Our springers still worked to the gun as well as flushing, the terriers still went ratting, rabbiting etc as well as for a damn good days sport with the local hunt all had tails AND dewclaws non suffered injury.

Front dewclaws have a function from the dogs point of view, my own breed use them like thumbs when climbing a fence - even if I don't want them to lol. Yes I've had dogs lose a claw catching it on something NOT A DEWCLAW just a claw on either of the 2 outer toes we don't remove those do we? The only time I've seen a dog lose a dewclaw was my own veteran schip who objected to a muzzle for his last vets visit, he wasn't overly keen on the prostrate examination! He used both feet to the point of pulling the claws out in a bid to remove the offending muzzle, amazingly quickly too by the time I'd reacted to stop one foot he'd done the other!

Watch this legal docking performed on a puppy by an experience breeder and tell me its not painful and heartbreaking! Don't look if you are of a sensitive disposition.

YouTube - Docking Drahthaar tails


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## clairebear1984 (Dec 13, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> yet another ignorant individual. You can't show a dog that is docked if it has been docked past the date of the ban!!! It's nothing to do with showing!!


yea now u can but before u couldnt show a boxer that had a tail


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

bosshogg said:


> greyhounds need there tails though


ALL dogs need their tails.


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## clairebear1984 (Dec 13, 2009)

^^ agreed

also docking tails, can be misleading when dogs read from another dogs behaviour etc etc (i know wat i mean lol)


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

YouTube - Rage Against The Machine-Bullet in your head#​


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## JackieL (May 19, 2009)

I have a patterdale (bitch) who's tail was docked (she's 5 now). I rescued her from the RSPCA, whoever docked her tail did a seriously bad job of it. She has more than a stump, its a stupid length, and generally looks odd :lol2:.

I still love her dearly nonetheless : victory:.


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

You have always been able to show a tailed version of any docked breed you just didn't win or get much of a look in depends on your feelings about going against the norm.

I've always shown my homebred schips with their tails, admittedly I've had to buy in docked versions but no one has ever given me grief about showing a tailed schipperke. I've got a photo in the loft of a tailed schip who won a CC back in the early 90's I think, would have to get it out and check the dates but it was certainly before I started in the breed.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

View My Video


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

HABU said:


> image​
> 
> 
> ​


He's lovely, but he'd be even lovelier with all that god gave him.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Or she even...:lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

dobermans just are ideal with cropping and docking and those big dew claws gone...

they are majestic like that... that whip tail and floppy ears make them look like some hound...


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

So you're ok with mutilating animals just so they look ok?

Well that's ok then. Sorry - we all got it wrong, as long as they LOOK "majestic", then chop off whatever you want.

Sick.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

KathyM said:


> ALL dogs need their tails.


good editing on my quote what i said was greyhounds need there tails as they use it was a rudder for when there racing, hunt and retrive dont use there tails in the same way


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

HABU said:


> dobermans just are ideal with cropping and docking and those big dew claws gone...
> 
> they are majestic like that... that whip tail and floppy ears make them look like some hound...


I personally prefer my dogs how they were born. I can understand the arguments for Docking tails in working spaniels and what not, though personally I wouldn't do it, but to do ear cropping or tail docking for vanity, I can't stand personally I'm afraid.

If I wanted a dog with pointy ears I would try to source one with upright ears, rather than have an operation on my own dog..not that we could it's illegal over here thankfully.


I think Great Danes & dobes look so much better with ears too :flrt:



















Claire I think she meant for behaviour purposes. In the sense that all dogs need their tails? May be wrong though.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Esarosa said:


> I personally prefer my dogs how they were born. I can understand the arguments for Docking tails in working spaniels and what not, though personally I wouldn't do it, but to do ear cropping or tail docking for vanity, I can't stand personally I'm afraid.
> 
> If I wanted a dog with pointy ears I would try to source one with upright ears, rather than have an operation on my own dog..not that we could it's illegal over here thankfully.
> 
> ...


 
it would be nice id dobies were born with gsd like ears...

that can be corrected.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)




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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

HABU said:


> image


Awww (s)he's gorgeous!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

If you want a dog with ears like a GSD, here's an idea for you, radical though it might be. Hold onto your hats! But wouldn't a, just saying, perhaps, maybe, correct me if I'm wrong, _GSD_ be an idea? Just a mad idea to throw out there. :whistling2:

I don't go out and buy a cocker spaniel then say, well if only it had legs like a wolfhound and ears like a ridgeback and then look into surgical mutilation as a solution. :lol2:

All dogs need tails. Ear cropping is wrong. There are no arguments for either nowadays. If a dog injures itself carrying out an activity, you don't do it. I never understood why people didn't just selectively breed for a more suitable hunting animal if spaniels ears and tails aren't suitable pmsl. It's just a bit _backwards_.


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## Natonstan (Aug 9, 2008)

My little Jack russel had has a docked tail (We got him as a rescue). It just looks like a little ball of fluff :lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

KathyM said:


> If you want a dog with ears like a GSD, here's an idea for you, radical though it might be. Hold onto your hats! But wouldn't a, just saying, perhaps, maybe, correct me if I'm wrong, _GSD_ be an idea? Just a mad idea to throw out there. :whistling2:
> 
> I don't go out and buy a cocker spaniel then say, well if only it had legs like a wolfhound and ears like a ridgeback and then look into surgical mutilation as a solution. :lol2:
> 
> All dogs need tails. Ear cropping is wrong. There are no arguments for either nowadays. If a dog injures itself carrying out an activity, you don't do it. I never understood why people didn't just selectively breed for a more suitable hunting animal if sp aniels ears and tails aren't suitable pmsl. It's just a bit _backwards_.


 
german shepherds AREN'T dobermans...

get on those piercing threads...

dogs deal with life... people infuse their own sensibilities into dogs as if dogs thought like people... they don't.

dogs are tough and docking a tail won't cause you dog to be mental...

some dog owners are mental though...


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I had two docked boxers here and can argue otherwise. They weren't mental but they were certainly routinely misread because they were lacking in their primary form of communication. Any even very basic dog behaviour knowledge will have told you dogs need their tails. Anyone who hacks them off to make a dog acceptable to them aesthetically doesn't know or deserve a dog. ETA: I'm sure if someone hacked your tongue off you're tough and you'd survive. Doesn't make it a good life for you, and given the medium I'd recommend the fingers personally....

I know you're a keen windup merchant on this topic as we've discussed it before, so I don't take it personally.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)




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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

KathyM said:


> I had two docked boxers here and can argue otherwise. They weren't mental but they were certainly routinely misread because they were lacking in their primary form of communication. Any even very basic dog behaviour knowledge will have told you dogs need their tails. Anyone who hacks them off to make a dog acceptable to them aesthetically doesn't know or deserve a dog.
> 
> I know you're a keen windup merchant on this topic as we've discussed it before, so I don't take it personally.


 
so dogs with docked tails are retarded you say?


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Spock vs George Clooney, know which I'd choose! Dog on the right is beautiful.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

HABU said:


> so dogs with docked tails are retarded you say?


No, just men who prefer them so. The problem was with other dogs reading them, not them reading other dogs, you spaz. :lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

KathyM said:


> Spock vs George Clooney, know which I'd choose! Dog on the right is beautiful.


 you're hopeless...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

KathyM said:


> No, just men who prefer them so. The problem was with other dogs reading them, not them reading other dogs, you spaz. :lol2:


what's other dogs got to do with it?

my dog never cared about other dogs...


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

HABU said:


> image image


I have to say I prefer the dog on the right! The ears on the dog on the left look odd and quite stupid to be honest :lol2: They'd look best if they were naturally that way, it'd be relatively simple to change, really.

And I'm not anti-docking FTR.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

HABU said:


> you're hopeless...


LOL no, I just prefer natural looking animals, bit like I don't like the look of overly fake boobs and other obvious augmentations done to please men with little brains and even littler appendages. :whistling2::lol2:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

HABU said:


> what's other dogs got to do with it?
> 
> my dog never cared about other dogs...


Boxers have a naturally forward stance, floppy ears and until recently docked tails. All easily misinterpreted by other dogs, can lead to attacks/fights. Without a tail they're basically screwed. I'd love for them to have naturally wolflike ears too but I wouldn't risk the agony of ear cropping just for them to look that way. I just won't buy one. :2thumb:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

KathyM said:


> LOL no, I just prefer natural looking animals, bit like I don't like the look of overly fake boobs and other obvious augmentations done to please men with little brains and even littler appendages. :whistling2::lol2:


 
0.1 Candycane Cornsnake - "Queenie"


yeah right!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

HABU said:


> 0.1 Candycane Cornsnake - "Queenie"
> 
> 
> yeah right!


Does her colouration lead her to pain and misinterpretation. Does it prevent her living an ordinary pet snake life? And if you're being snotty about it, you'd see she's sold because I don't want to breed neon snakes. :lol2: ETA: Real life beckons, catch you later.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

LOL @ Habu trying to defend himself. Truth is you like molesting animals.

Animal pervert!


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

Am against ear cropping in all instances and tail docking in most. Do the people on here that are for it seriously think that a bunch of one day old puppies are taken along to the veterinarian for the operation to be carried out humanely??

I'm so glad that current legislation makes it illegal in most cases anyway . If i'm being 100% honest I did and probably still do prefer the *look" of a docked boxer or rottie (can't help that) but that doesn't make it OK to do for aesthetical reasons. I find that mentality a bit weird.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

you all likely dress up your dogs and all such nonsense...


if you don't like something then just don't do it... and leave others alone by not condemning them...

where have i ever said that people SHOULD crop or dock?


you all are the anti's who like to ban things for others...

maybe i think people shouldn't own snakes?

but i don't... i'm not a shouldn't type...

don't get up in other people's business... live and let live... don't criticise others for what they think is proper and allowable...

you likely have silly, wimpy dogs who you beg to obey you...


i like dobermans docked and cropped and the dew claws removed... that is my right... and nothing for you all to mock or call criminal...

have fun in your fuzzy-wuzzy world...


don't tread on me...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> LOL @ Habu trying to defend himself. Truth is you like molesting animals.
> 
> Animal pervert!


 
personal attack eh?

you should get an infraction for that...


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

Why do you think because I am against ear cropping and tail docking that automatically means I dress my dogs up and beg them to obey? LOL. If that's not an assumption or stereotype then I don't know what is. Please don't talk to be about dog behaviour, I have owned and been working with dogs all my life and I am studying a degree in animal behavioural science and WELFARE.

My dogs are well behaved and no I don't dress them up because I don't like the idea of it, although to be honest dressing a dog up is not really harmful to it, is it? So I don't know how that can be compared to cropping or tail docking. And anyway, I thought you wasn't a "shouldn't person?". Humm, an accidental contradiction it seems.

This is a thread on a public forum. People are going to be opinionated and people will want to share their views, that is what a forum is for. It is not about letting people carry on with what they think is allowable as you put it. The hard and fast facts are that cropping is 100% useless apart from aesthetical reasons, and tail docking is completely useless 99% of the time except for certain working dogs (and even that is debateable). I think you'll find that the majority of the leading veterinary professionals agree or they wouldn't have outlawed it in the first place.

I didn't realize you also liked DEW claws remove. Are you aware of how painful that procedure is?? Obviously not (I hope) because if you are and you still choose to support it then I have to question why you keep animals?

It IS your right to LIKE such practices if you choose to (ookkk), but it is not your right to have it carried out or support an illegal practice.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

mattm said:


> Why do you think because I am against ear cropping and tail docking that automatically means I dress my dogs up and beg them to obey? LOL. If that's not an assumption or stereotype then I don't know what is. Please don't talk to be about dog behaviour, I have owned and been working with dogs all my life and I am studying a degree in animal behavioural science and WELFARE.
> 
> My dogs are well behaved and no I don't dress them up because I don't like the idea of it, although to be honest dressing a dog up is not really harmful to it, is it? So I don't know how that can be compared to cropping or tail docking. And anyway, I thought you wasn't a "shouldn't person?". Humm, an accidental contradiction it seems.
> 
> ...


 life is pain... best not to breed dogs... it will cause pain...


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## Natonstan (Aug 9, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> LOL @ Habu trying to defend himself. Truth is you like molesting animals.
> 
> Animal pervert!


Can you get any more childish..


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Natonstan said:


> Can you get any more childish..


 






 

YouTube - Darius Rucker - Let Her Cry​


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

Is the title of that youtube video aimed at one of your pets? LOL.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

HABU said:


> personal attack eh?
> 
> you should get an infraction for that...


While I agree that Lisa's post was personal, aren't yours when you have a go at people for not liking your dog's ears? 

I don't dress my dogs up (lol @ the idea of dressing up Dharma, I'd like to see you try!), and I'm not "fluffy". I regularly stand up against "fluffies" in other circles, but I don't think you can say that anyone against the painful and unecessary mutilation of dogs for aesthetic purposes as being "over fluffy". I know you like to look "hard" with your attitudes on here, I suspect it is for the same reasons some people are into the big snakes, but it doesn't wash with me mate. People aren't "fluffy" just for wanting dogs to be dogs not Barbie dolls for people who want them "just" how they like them. I don't think there's anything natural about wanting to cut vital body parts of living beings to suit your aesthetic taste, and I never will. It cant be a case of "live and let live" or we'd have to say the same about the abuse and mutilation of animals (or even humans perhaps?) in other ways. Cropping ears is animal abuse, that's why it's banned here. Docking for aesthetic reasons is animal abuse, that's why it's banned here. Any self respecting animal expert will tell you that neither is necessary.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Hear a thought.Bourbonnais pointer and Brittany spaniels both carry a dominant gene for tail reduction.To half way or looking like docked.
Why can't these hunting dogs be used for working.Or be used to make know dog with no tails.Then no need to dock.

[1Copy]Tail reduction X Tailed = .

50%Tailed.
50%Tail reduction.
=======
[2Copy]Tail reduction X Tailed = .

100%[1Copy]tail reduction.
=======
[1Copy]Tail reduction X [1Copy]tail reduction = .

25%Tailed.
50%[1Copy]Tail reduction.
25%[2Copy]Tail reduction.
-----------
[2Copy]Tail reduction X [1Copy]tail reduction = .

50%[1Copy]Tail reduction.
50%[2Copy]Tail reduction.
----------
[2Copy]Tail reduction X [2Copy]tail reduction = .

100%[2Copy]Tail reduction.
========
Bourbonnais pointer 









brittany spaniel


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

The Brittany is growing more and more in popularity as a working dog actually. But they aren't everybody's 'cup of tea'


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*natural bobtails*



gazz said:


> Why can't these hunting dogs be used for working.Or be used to make know dog with no tails.Then no need to dock
> ========


breeding for natural bobtails also has pitfalls,mainly spinal deformaties.My dogs have no tails naturally,at the moment there is no screening scheme available for dogs over here that may be affected although there is in the u.s.a.When its available I'll be first in the queue.It pains me to say that I think docking is a better alternative than breeding natural bobs.


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## thalie_knights (Jan 19, 2007)

In the very early stages of the Dobermann 'evolution' as it were, they were incorporating the breeding of other dogs which had naturally 'up' ears, and naturally shorter tails - so that the docking of the tail and cropping of the ears would'nt be necessary. Unfortunately due to a lot of dog and genetic lines lost during the war, a lof of the work put in was lost, and as a result cropping/docking was resumed.

As an owner of a dobe who is also docked and cropped, i personally 'prefer' this look of the dobes. To me, when the breed was first 'formed' to look - they were docked and cropped. When both procedures are done correctly (i.e by a professional, at the correct age etc) the outcome is rather different to a litter being docked in someone's shed etc...

This is what the dobe represents to me, and I wouldnt change mine for anything. On the otherhand, I have never, and will never suggest to someone that they get theirs cropped/docked, as its not my right as fundamentally it is their dog..


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

LoveForLizards said:


> The Brittany is growing more and more in popularity as a working dog actually. But they aren't everybody's 'cup of tea'


agree Brittany is very good at the job it was trained for, but is no way as popular as a springer or cocker


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## clairebear1984 (Dec 13, 2009)

thalie_knights said:


> In the very early stages of the Dobermann 'evolution' as it were, they were incorporating the breeding of other dogs which had naturally 'up' ears, and naturally shorter tails - so that the docking of the tail and cropping of the ears would'nt be necessary. Unfortunately due to a lot of dog and genetic lines lost during the war, a lof of the work put in was lost, and as a result cropping/docking was resumed.
> 
> As an owner of a dobe who is also docked and cropped, i personally 'prefer' this look of the dobes. To me, when the breed was first 'formed' to look - they were docked and cropped. When both procedures are done correctly (i.e by a professional, at the correct age etc) the outcome is rather different to a litter being docked in someone's shed etc...
> 
> This is what the dobe represents to me, and I wouldnt change mine for anything. On the otherhand, I have never, and will never suggest to someone that they get theirs cropped/docked, as its not my right as fundamentally it is their dog..


i thought cropping in the uk is illegal??


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

As you live in Brighton, how did you get hold of an cropped dog, or did you import? Got to be honest, if my personal preference was for a mutilated animal, I'd probably not have that animal rather than put it through that for me. Regardless of who carries it out, it's unecessary and cruel.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

thalie_knights said:


> In the very early stages of the Dobermann 'evolution' as it were, they were incorporating the breeding of other dogs which had naturally 'up' ears, and naturally shorter tails - so that the docking of the tail and cropping of the ears would'nt be necessary. Unfortunately due to a lot of dog and genetic lines lost during the war, a lof of the work put in was lost, and as a result cropping/docking was resumed.
> 
> As an owner of a dobe who is also docked and cropped, i personally 'prefer' this look of the dobes. To me, when the breed was first 'formed' to look - they were docked and cropped. When both procedures are done correctly (i.e by a professional, at the correct age etc) the outcome is rather different to a litter being docked in someone's shed etc...
> 
> This is what the dobe represents to me, and I wouldnt change mine for anything. On the otherhand, I have never, and will never suggest to someone that they get theirs cropped/docked, as its not my right as fundamentally it is their dog..


 

thank you for that... my sentiments exactly... just not in so eloquent words...:notworthy:


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## thalie_knights (Jan 19, 2007)

our dog is an import. Unfortunately there are very few 'good' dobe blood lines in the UK, with the majority of breeders choosing to breed for showing and not for working, hence the import status.

Interestingly (to some maybe,lol!) there was an article in a Dobe magazine a year or so ago, about how kennels have been affected since the imposed ban in EU contries. A great deal of working kennels and breeders ceased breeding entirely as they refused to breed animals which would no longer 'represent' how the dog was initially intended to look. 
The other side of the coin, is that the remaining breeders still _do _dock and crop via their own private vet. Vast numbers of professional dobe kennels will continue cropping and docking also due to the shere fact that the shows/competitions which are worth it to them i.e ZTP, Schutzhund etc take place in countries where docked/cropped dogs are allowed to compete/be shown if the correct paperwork is provided. Therefore, this EU legislation actually means peanuts to those who know that a)people are still very willing to purchase their dogs docked and cropped b) they can go about their everyday ways of training/working/showing abroad for the legislation not to affect them in the slightest.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Boo hoo. If they cant breed without mutilating something they shouldn't be breeding at all anyway. Big huge loss to the dog world. Not.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

HABU said:


> personal attack eh?
> 
> you should get an infraction for that...


And so should you for your rant against all of us with froo froo doggies.

Yeah, my dog is seriously dressed up right now. All 80kg of him.

:lol2::bash:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

bosshogg said:


> agree Brittany is very good at the job it was trained for, but is no way as popular as a springer or cocker


Definitely not, and if I'm honest I don't think they ever will be, at least not for many decades to come. They are also becoming popular in Falconry, but 'true to form' the majority are sticking to the more traditional breeds, German Pointers and Vizslas. I do like Brittany's though and think they are a very good breed in the hunting circle, not scared of anything and very versatile being suitable for ground, cover and water, and they are perfect for people who hunt with both Birds of Prey and guns. :2thumb:


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## thalie_knights (Jan 19, 2007)

as a non-dobe owner, thats your opinion and your entitled to it. I, on the otherhand,would disagree.

Out of curiosity, regarding dogs which have been so in-bred by humans that we not have breeds bearing catastrophic health conditions, would you suggest that in order to give those dogs 'a better life' we should just cease breeding them altogether as well?


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> Yeah, my dog is seriously dressed up right now. All 80kg of him.
> 
> :lol2::bash:


He could be "Clifford the Big _Blue_ Dog". :2thumb::lol2:


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## clairebear1984 (Dec 13, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> Boo hoo. If they cant breed without mutilating something they shouldn't be breeding at all anyway. Big huge loss to the dog world. Not.


 :2thumb:


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

HABU said:


> you all likely dress up your dogs and all such nonsense...


I hate dress up as much as crop & dock.

But the differance is.

Doggy cloths on.Doggy cloths off.Doggy cloths on.Doggy cloths off'etc.

But.

Doggy ears & tail on.Doggy ears & tail off.Ops doggy ears & tail off.Doggy ears & tail off.

So not really the same thing at all.



> you likely have silly, wimpy dogs who you beg to obey you...
> 
> I like dobermans docked and cropped and the dew claws removed... that is my right... and nothing for you all to mock or call criminal...


Unnecessary cosmetic surgery is a human thing.Coz we say we do what it.Or we do not what it.Two things should not be dragged into it,Childen and pets.Cropping and docking is all about the look but there's nothing wrong with the way a dobbie looks before hand.

A dog being Silly,Wimpy that obeys you has nothing to do with crop & dock.Just coz a dog looks hard dosen't mean it is.Just coz a dog look soft doesn't mean it is.

This Dobbie would be no differant.









Than this Dobbie.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

> In the very early stages of the Dobermann 'evolution' as it were, they were incorporating the breeding of other dogs which had naturally 'up' ears, and naturally shorter tails - so that the docking of the tail and cropping of the ears would'nt be necessary. Unfortunately due to a lot of dog and genetic lines lost during the war, a lof of the work put in was lost, and as a result cropping/docking was resumed.
> 
> As an owner of a dobe who is also docked and cropped, i personally 'prefer' this look of the dobes. To me, when the breed was first 'formed' to look - they were docked and cropped. When both procedures are done correctly (i.e by a professional, at the correct age etc) the outcome is rather different to a litter being docked in someone's shed etc...
> 
> This is what the dobe represents to me, and I wouldnt change mine for anything. On the otherhand, I have never, and will never suggest to someone that they get theirs cropped/docked, as its not my right as fundamentally it is their dog..


I don't understand what your point is, honestly? I said myself I like the LOOK of docked boxers and rotties, but that is as far as it goes. I would never in my wildest dreams have it done, support it, or encourage it though!!!!!!!!!!!

In purchasing an animal that is cropped and docked you are supporting the practice.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

thalie_knights said:


> would you suggest that in order to give those dogs 'a better life' we should just cease breeding them altogether as well?


Thats a bit of a paradox surely because if they weren't bred, they wouldn't be alive in any case?


> A great deal of working kennels and breeders ceased breeding entirely as they refused to breed animals which would no longer 'represent' how the dog was initially intended to look.


 This too is a bit strange for me to understand. First, you are mainly interested in the schutzhund abilities of the dog and not the way it looks, but you have it mutilated because you like the way it looks with the tail amputated and the ears sliced about?
Why not buy a dog you like the look of, rather than mutilate in order to get it to look how you like? I mean, otherwise go to any rescue kennels, get any dog, then snip and slice, cut bits off, add a bit of filler here and there, stick fur extentions on, and you could create your ideal dog.
Initially, Herr Dobermann bred mongrels and crossbreeds together. Some had prick ears, some not. So your earlier comment about them originally having short tails and erect ears, but those traits being lost during a war, simply made no sense to me I'm afraid.Why were just the Dobermann traits lost and not those of the German shepherd and Rottweiler.(Please excuse the German spelling of Dobermann but the English version just looks odd to me)


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

HABU said:


> you all likely dress up your dogs and all such nonsense...


Dobbie people do it to:lol2:.































































































​









*Oh what a lovely dog!*​


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*pedigree dog breeding*



thalie_knights said:


> Out of curiosity, regarding dogs which have been so in-bred by humans that we not have breeds bearing catastrophic health conditions, would you suggest that in order to give those dogs 'a better life' we should just cease breeding them altogether as well?


I hope that with all the advances made in dog health,that health screening will see an end to many of the problems and pedigree dogs will be more healthy than the average average dog .The health screening and alterations to breed standards are what should improve the lot of some of them.I personally wouldn't want them to die out.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*poodleman*

great pictures.


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## MViper (Mar 25, 2009)

I wish my tail was docked


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

thalie_knights said:


> as a non-dobe owner, thats your opinion and your entitled to it. I, on the otherhand,would disagree.
> 
> Out of curiosity, regarding dogs which have been so in-bred by humans that we not have breeds bearing catastrophic health conditions, would you suggest that in order to give those dogs 'a better life' we should just cease breeding them altogether as well?


Unless you're breeding for a purpose - to improve health and temperament, one should not be breeding at all.

So if you like hacking bits off dogs, in my opinion, you shouldn't be breeding. Clearly not working towards the good of the breed if they need to lop bits off to make them "look good".

Besides, it has nothing to do with inbreeding, that just shows how little about breeding you know. Inbreeding doesn't cause health issues, poor breeding choices do, naff show standards do, and those breeding for looks over everything else do.

So your wonderful dobie breeders are just as guilty as any other poor breeder. If they wanted pricked ears and short tails they should have worked towards it instead of cutting bits off puppies. If they couldn't find a breed they did like the look of without mutilating it - they shouldn't be breeding at all.

I see no great loss if those breeders gave up completely, and I'm sure many dogs would be a lot happier if they did too. As I said before - no huge loss to the dog world. A good breeder doesn't need to hack bits off animals to be happy - they love the breed how it should look.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Or maybe people should stop being so silly and breed a dog towards what they are supposed to be, their health, ability, drive and temperament? As opposed to what they think looks good? 
As I said, I don't like the look of docked tails, but if I was to buy a pup for working (Keeping in mind, if I WAS to buy a pup for working [which I'm not], it would be a German Pointer or a Vizsla) I'd buy one that wasn't docked and have her docked later in life under anaesthetic, around the summer before she was due to start working.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

I dont think that all docking should be banned. Working breeds should definately be docked due to the dangers to them. Iv seen dogs almost have their tails ripped off while working and that was unfair to the dog.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Selina - maybe you can answer my question then. What proportion of working dogs with tails injure them? A rough guess at a percentage would be great.

I think it's unlikely anyone could answer that considering working dogs are docked routinely. Yes, the excuse is the same, it's all about "prevention", but surely surgery on an injured tail is better than removing it "just in case". Unless the risks are that ALL working dogs will injure their tail, there is no reason to do it preventatively.

It's purely cosmetic imo, and just excuses when people say otherwise.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

selina20 said:


> I dont think that all docking should be banned. Working breeds should definately be docked due to the dangers to them. Iv seen dogs almost have their tails ripped off while working and that was unfair to the dog.


If working dogs is so dangerous to them, have the owners considered prevention (ie. not putting them in danger) rather than docking? 

As for thalieknights using poor breeding as a distraction, what is worse really? Even if we take the extreme of those breeding dogs with more and more health problems in search of aesthetic standards, they are only just as bad as those who would take the perfect puppy and mutilate it to their detriment healthwise and socially just for owner's aesthetic taste? I find it hard to believe one can be against breeding unhealthy dogs for looks and still support hacking essential body parts off others for your (poor) taste? I'm trying not to be incendiary in saying that, I just find the whole idea of "acceptable abuse" as abhorrent.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

When we used to do gundog work there was usually an injury every month or so.

When we did ratting with the jack russell luckily he was docked because regularily he would dig up a fairly aggressive rat so would of caused unnecessary damage.

How can u prevent it????? Put a padded tail bag on the dog???

Does this mean the docking of sheep tails should be banned eventho they are at risk of fly strike which could kill them.

I have also seen heavy horses docked due to their tails getting trapped.

I do not agree with docking as cosmetic only in those animals which are working.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I wasn't personally say what should or shouldn't be done with working dogs. I haven't at any point. I just wonder why when owners of working dogs use the dangers of the job as an excuse to remove their dog's primary form of communication, they never consider just not working them. There are plenty of other activities working dogs can do that don't involve such danger. Seems a bit odd to me personally.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*horse docking*

docking of horses tails has been banned for years,the author of black beauty campaigned against it.Its only done in the case of injury.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

Selina docking is not banned in all cases. Working dogs or puppies that are intended to be working dogs can still legally be docked but it must be done properly by a qualified veterinarian.

Before this legislation came in breeders would do all sorts of barbaric things to try and rid certain puppies of their tails, the most common was tying an elastic band around 2-3" from the tail base on 1 day old puppies. This would stop blood circulation and soon the tail would drop off (often with the help of a sharp instrument) and leave a stump. Viola, a docked puppy. So I think anyone that has animal welfare as priority would see the legislation as a complete relief.

I still haven't heard any valid reasons FOR docking anyway? Even with working dogs, I don't believe there is a high enough number of tails being injured to merit "blanket docking" all working dogs. Shall we also amputate the legs incase they get a thorn stuck in their paw? If indeed tails dogs are ripped off routinely then that is obviously very stressful for the dog and maybe they shouldn't be put in that position in the first place, or indeed if docking does need to be carried out then it needs to be done in the legal way and not a home job by some idiot who thinks s/he can do better than a vet (or more likely save money). It still goes on.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

KathyM said:


> I wasn't personally say what should or shouldn't be done with working dogs. I haven't at any point. I just wonder why when owners of working dogs use the dangers of the job as an excuse to remove their dog's primary form of communication, they never consider just not working them. *There are plenty of other activities working dogs can do that don't involve such danger.* Seems a bit odd to me personally.


People don't hunt because they have a dog, they have a dog because they hunt.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I'm not sure what your point is? Are you saying the dogs don't deserve to be safeguarded because they've been bought specifically to be put in danger for the sake of a past time? EDIT: Sorry sorry, should've checked who I was replying to, thought it was same person, sorry L4L


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

It sounded to me as if you meant that people work docked dogs for enrichment to the dog etc, I was just saying that hunters get a docked breed for hunting, they don't hunt because of the breed they have if that makes sense? :blush: Sorry if I misunderstood your post. :blush:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I get what you mean. :no1: I agree with your interpretation of things too. What bothers me is when they use the dog's welfare to justify docking but don't consider that they're putting the dog in that "dangerous" position themselves for their own pleasure. Surely if the dog's welfare is paramount to them, it *would* be about the dog and not hunting. So let's face it, the dog's welfare is not the issue and can't possibly be, or they wouldn't be partaking in a sport than they say endangers them so badly. 

I do think a lot of pro (and in some cases anti) docking arguments are based less on experience and more on unthought-out repetition of old arguments. When faced with an alternative the arguments seem to fall down. Not hunting, using breeds without feathery tails, etc, there are alternatives, I just wish people would be more honest and say the real motivation.

For the record I am undecided on where I stand when it comes to the docking of genuine working dogs (and I don't mean those who's owners/breeders said were of working stock just to get them docked then never worked them a day). I will remain undecided until someone tells me why the alternatives of not hunting or using better suited dogs are not suitable.


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