# mack tremper?



## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

is there such a thing as a mack super snow tremper and would it have eclipse eyes but red like a RAPTOR?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Yes, there are Mack Super Snow Tremper Albinos.

They do have solid red eyes but they do NOT carry the Eclipse gene that is responsible for the solid eyes in RAPTORs.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

so what sort of red eyes do they have? like a red eyed enigma? or do they look like RAPTOR eyes but from a different genetic combination?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

They have a Mack Super Snow eye, but in red instead of black.

I don't think you get "snake eyed" Mack Super Snows like you do RAPTORs; they're definitely not like a red-eyed Enigma.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

ok so supposing i managed to get a mack super snow tremper with red eyes and i bred it to my RAPTOR male what would happen?


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

boywonder said:


> ok so supposing i managed to get a mack super snow tremper with red eyes and i bred it to my RAPTOR male what would happen?


You'd get 100% Tremper albino mack snow het eclipse.Thing is Tremper strain eclipse is seperate from the body morph of a leo.A albino patternless striped comes with eclipse-(RAPTOR) or with out eclipse-(APTOR).But black/Red eye on a super snow is linked solely to the super snow body pattern it is half of what make a super snow a super snow.

Eclipse banded X banded(no trait) = 100% banded het eclipse.

Super snow X banded(no trait) = 100% mack snow.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

so what is a super RAPTOR? and theoretically if i bred a raptor and a tremper super snow, would they produce tremper mack snows 100% het for raptor component genes(stripe rev stripe giant orange ect), what would happen if i bred brothers to sisters or offspring to parents? has anyone done this yet? i think this will be next years project for me lol, just got to find a female tremper mack super snow(100% het RAPTOR:mf_dribble and be able to afford her


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## BG-Gecko (Nov 12, 2007)

Super raptor is a super snow raptor. 
If you breed a raptor x super tremper you'd get 100% mack trempers het raptor so you were right about that. And offspring would give trempers, mack trempers, super snow trempers, raptors, mack raptors, super raptors.
And yes mack raptors and super raptors have been produced already 
If you want a super tremper het raptor you can start saving  geckosetc. will probably sell them for $800-1000 if not more.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

so if i could get a female mack super snow tremper that would be a good starting point, has anyone got any pics or even one for sale please?


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## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

If you go look on Ron Tremper's SS page, you will see a Tremper SS with red eyes


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

boywonder said:


> so what is a super RAPTOR? and theoretically if i bred a raptor and a tremper super snow, would they produce tremper mack snows 100% het for raptor component genes(stripe rev stripe giant orange ect), what would happen if i bred brothers to sisters or offspring to parents? has anyone done this yet? i think this will be next years project for me lol, just got to find a female tremper mack super snow(100% het RAPTOR:mf_dribble and be able to afford her


Don't beleave the hype :whistling2:no such thing.Super snow body pattern and colour are dominant over patternless stripe.And super snow black eye is dominant over eclipse so there are no super RAPTOR's only albino super snow het eclipse.In the link is a a so called NON albino form of the so called super RAPTOR other than the white washed nose it is every bit a standed super snow the white wash nose you could use a a indercator that it is het eclipse but other than that i see no point and they aren't going to be worth the price tag.I see nother super RAPTOR about these there just super snow het eclipse.

A so called NON albino super RAPTOR.More like super snow het eclipse & albino.









Super snow.









A so called super RAPTOR.More like Tremper albino super snow het eclipse incubated high temp.









Tremper albino super snow incubated high temp.









Tremper albino super snow incubated lower temp.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

those last two are lovely especially like the final one i'll be on the look out for a female, any idea what i might have to pay?


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

boywonder said:


> those last two are lovely especially like the final one i'll be on the look out for a female, any idea what i might have to pay?


Home grown geckos has a girl Tremper albino super snow £300 : victory:.
Web link.Home Grown Geckos, geckos for sale, buy, incubator, reptiles, gallery, eggs. carrot, hypotangarine, leopard gecko, caresheet, behaviour, feeding, available, vivarium, equipment, terms, breeders, morphs, care for geckos, geckos available


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

i like this one too its at Home Grown Geckos, geckos for sale, buy, incubator, reptiles, gallery, eggs. carrot, hypotangarine, leopard gecko, caresheet, behaviour, feeding, available, vivarium, equipment, terms, breeders, morphs, care for geckos, geckos available
it says its a banded mack snow raptor. worth the money or not?


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

boywonder said:


> i like this one too its at Home Grown Geckos, geckos for sale, buy, incubator, reptiles, gallery, eggs. carrot, hypotangarine, leopard gecko, caresheet, behaviour, feeding, available, vivarium, equipment, terms, breeders, morphs, care for geckos, geckos available
> it says its a banded mack snow raptor. worth the money or not?


Yes worth the money if you've got it.Breeding it to your RAPTOR you'll get Albino eclipse mack snow patternless striped now they look differant way better than so called albino eclipse super snow patternless striped.Below a albino eclipse mack snow patternless striped.









You could even get these albino eclipse mack snow reverse striped.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

I hate to say it, but it is technically IMPOSSIBLE for a Mack Snow to be a RAPTOR.

The point is that a RAPTOR is *R*uby-eyed *A*lbino *P*atternless-Reversestripe *T*remper *OR*ange - it's got to be a high orange tangerine animal. A Mack Snow - or Mack Super Snow - is NOT high orange and by nature reduces the amount of orange and yellow colouration and therefore doesn't meet the *ORange* part.

What you could get is an Eclipse Mack Super Snow Patternless Reverse Stripe... but that ain't a RAPTOR. Proving it was an Eclipse would be a bit of a pain too - though I'd assume that the Patternless Reverse Stripe should wipe out some of the body spotting.

Though I love Homegrown's geckos overall, the animal you've shown a photo of does not meet the criteria for being a RAPTOR because it does not have the Patternless Reverse-Stripe patterning. It's a normal banded animal. Not to mention it ain't orange either.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

so the gecko i posted is labled wrong on the website as only animals that are ruby eyed albino patternless(from stripexrevstripe)tremper orange are raptors, which would be the best morph to create something cool? i,ve got money for the right animal


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

Below a albino eclipse mack snow patternless striped.









You could even get these albino eclipse mack snow reverse striped.







[/quote]
where are these geckos gazz? have you seen them for sale, i only want to buy from the uk


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

boywonder said:


> so the gecko i posted is labled wrong on the website as only animals that are ruby eyed albino patternless(from stripexrevstripe)tremper orange are raptors, which would be the best morph to create something cool? i,ve got money for the right animal


What do you personally think "looks cool"? What I think is the bees' knees you might think is boring (I like monochrome not-at-all-orange geckos - perfect black, white and grey Mack Snows, solid white blizzards with no yellow staining and so on).

If you like orange, hybinos and things like the Tangerine Tornados and RAPTOR/APTOR are for you.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> I hate to say it, but it is technically IMPOSSIBLE for a Mack Snow to be a RAPTOR.
> 
> The point is that a RAPTOR is *R*uby-eyed *A*lbino *P*atternless-Reversestripe *T*remper *OR*ange - it's got to be a high orange tangerine animal. A Mack Snow - or Mack Super Snow - is NOT high orange and by nature reduces the amount of orange and yellow colouration and therefore doesn't meet the *ORange* part.
> 
> ...


That's why i refram from saying RAPTOR as much as possible i refer to the eye gene and the body strain.So the one HGG's has i'd refer to as Tremper albino eclipse normal-(Trait carrier of jungle,striped,reverse striped,Patternless striped).I disagree with the eclipse mack super snow patternless striped as super snow body pattern and colour and super snow black eye is dominant over eclipse and patternless striped.You'd only get albino super snow het eclipse-(T'c of jungle,striped,reverse striped,patternless striped).


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

boywonder said:


> Below a albino eclipse mack snow patternless striped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


where are these geckos gazz? have you seen them for sale, i only want to buy from the uk[/quote]

A&M Gecko in USA gutting is't it :bash:.I assume you could get them from Hamm show god knows how much they'll be though.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

so i like red eyed enigmas best like this one at chrystal palace







but since he's a bell albino he's not compatible with what i have already and still not sure about some of the isues with the morph in general so i think i'll wait a year or two, i think the super snow albinos look amazing, that dark one especialy, are there any secret breeder websites that are uk based and google doesn't put to the top of the list?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

gazz said:


> That's why i refram from saying RAPTOR as much as possible i refer to the eye gene and the body strain.So the one HGG's has i'd refer to as Tremper albino eclipse normal-(Trait carrier of jungle,striped,reverse striped,Patternless striped).I disagree with the eclipse mack super snow patternless striped as super snow body pattern and colour and super snow black eye is dominant over eclipse and patternless striped.You'd only get albino super snow het eclipse-(T'c of jungle,striped,reverse striped,patternless striped).


Are you sure patternless reverse stripe is hidden by the Super Snow patterning? 

As for the Super Snow black eye - I wouldn't be certain it's allelic to and thus dominant to Eclipse - they're probably two separate genes on two separate gene loci (same as Tremper and Bell albinos are two different genes)... which would mean it'd be possible for an animal to have Super Snow solid eyes AND be a genetic homozygous Eclipse too. Proving it would be the problem (I'd test-breed it to a non-albino Eclipse animal that isn't Mack Snow at all - if you got all Eclipse-eyed offspring and never got a non-eclipse/snake-eyed animal, you've got a homozygous Eclipse).


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## MOz (Nov 20, 2007)

i've tried to keep up with this conversation, but it's not happening lol


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> Are you sure patternless reverse stripe is hidden by the Super Snow patterning?
> 
> As for the Super Snow black eye - I wouldn't be certain it's allelic to and thus dominant to Eclipse - they're probably two separate genes on two separate gene loci (same as Tremper and Bell albinos are two different genes)... which would mean it'd be possible for an animal to have Super Snow solid eyes AND be a genetic homozygous Eclipse too. Proving it would be the problem (I'd test-breed it to a non-albino Eclipse animal that isn't Mack Snow at all - if you got all Eclipse-eyed offspring and never got a non-eclipse/snake-eyed animal, you've got a homozygous Eclipse).


I've seen two super snow that would be if allow expressing eclipse there super snow body is standed.There is two so called eclipse super snow as of yet and there are also a fair amount so called albino eclipse super snow the fact that all have solid eye not one as of yet has expressed any degree of snake eye that tell me that super snow black eye is dominants over eclipse.And if it can't express it can't be so so called super RAPTOR's are not.Maybe when more people are breeding them thing may start to happen.But based on what i've seen so far i would hold my breath. 

This is the best a so called eclipse super snow patternless striped is going to get IMO and patternless striped it deffantly is not.And non of them as of yet have expressed snake eye.So IMO there super snow het eclipse not super snow expressing eclipse.Note the white nose that's the only hint you get there eclipse there but IMO that an't good enough to say eclipse only to show it is carrying eclipse i need to see snake eyes first then i'll be happy to say eclipse super snow.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

gazz said:


> I've seen two super snow that would be if allow expressing eclipse there super snow body is standed.There is two so called eclipse super snow as of yet and there are also a fair amount so called albino eclipse super snow the fact that all have solid eye not one as of yet has expressed any degree of snake eye that tell me that super snow black eye is dominants over eclipse.


That's like saying that "Murphy Patternless" is dominant over "Hypo". It *masks* it - but it isn't "dominant" to it. I have an animal who is almost certainly a Hypo Murphy Patternless (he's produced super hypo offspring when bred to a hypo) ... you can't TELL he's hypo, but the gene's still there.

Alleles of the same gene are dominant or recessive or co/incomplete dominant to each other, but alleles of different genes are apples and oranges. Until it's proven that Eclipse is allelic to the gene that makes Super Snows have black eyes ... they can't be said to be 'dominant' or 'recessive' to each other at all. That said, I can believe that the phenotype of Super Mack Snow black eyes could *mask* the Eclipse eye.

That's why I said that proving you had a homozygous Eclipse Super Snow from a second-generation cross would take test-breeding to a non-Mack homozygous Eclipse animal. If you produce all Eclipse/Snake-Eyed offspring from that pairing, it's pretty certain your Super Snow is also homozygous Eclipse whether or not it has snake eyes.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> That's like saying that "Murphy Patternless" is dominant over "Hypo". It *masks* it - but it isn't "dominant" to it. I have an animal who is almost certainly a Hypo Murphy Patternless (he's produced super hypo offspring when bred to a hypo) ... you can't TELL he's hypo, but the gene's still there.


(M)patternless and blizzard are dominant over all body patterns.I mean in a visual sence you can't see the hypo so no point in saying hypo (M)patternless.Though it hides the hypo look is dominant in that sences.But it's not dominant in the sence that it lets the hypo gene het past on.This is what i mean in regards to the super snow black eye and eclipse.Eclipse may well be there but super snow black eye visually want let you see it.So no point in saying eclipse went super snow black is always on top.

Sorry i'm not sure if it's cumming out wright ??.I know what i mean but not sure if you know what i mean :bash: .


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

gazz said:


> (M)patternless and blizzard are dominant over all body patterns.I mean in a visual sence you can't see the hypo so no point in saying hypo (M)patternless.Though it hides the hypo look is dominant in that sences.But it's not dominant in the sence that it lets the hypo gene het past on.This is what i mean in regards to the super snow black eye and eclipse.Eclipse may well be there but super snow black eye visually want let you see it.So no point in saying eclipse went super snow black is always on top.
> 
> Sorry i'm not sure if it's cumming out wright ??.I know what i mean but not sure if you know what i mean :bash: .


I think we're probably talking about the same thing - my confusion is in the use of the word "dominant" - which refers to how alleles of the same gene work together, not how different genes work together. I'm using dominance in the genetic/allelic sense only - and would use the term "*masking*" to refer to the phenotypic effect of what you're calling "dominance".

For example, it's possible that, say, Rainwater Albino will mask Tremper Albino - but they're not dominant to or recessive to or indeed anything else to each other if they're not alleles of the same gene.


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