# RSPCA to boycott crufts



## leo19 (Mar 16, 2008)

RSPCA boycotts Crufts in dispute over breeding of 'disabled' dogs | UK news | The Guardian read this in the guardian this morning in the paper there was a great pic of the original british bull dog and what the kennel club has turned it into ! what do you all think?


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

:censor: fantastic its about :censor: time.
the RSPCA has actually done somethig right.
sounds like the kennel club could be thinking about legal action against the BBC though.
we will have to wait and see what happens.


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## Trillian (Jul 14, 2008)

While I commend the gesture, I can't help but think that it might have been better for the RSPCA to stay at Crufts. If only to highlight the issue of how selective breeding is leading to so many defective and genetically deformed animals. The breeders and spectators might actually effect some changes as a result...:hmm:


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

I think now they have pulled out other rescues and groups will follow.

The KC and Crufts will be in allot of trouble.

About time too...lol


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## stucoady (May 23, 2008)

Having seen how pugs for example used to look over 100 years ago, I just can not understand how anyone would think the pugs they have created today are a better breed? It's so crule and wrong


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## Trillian (Jul 14, 2008)

I know someone who has the most beautiful Collie and in my eyes, looks like a show quality dog. However, his owner was told that his ears weren't folded over properly and to correct the "defect", she would have to hang weights off of the ears (I think they call it "tipping") until they were the acceptable standard. Needless to say, she declined the cruel practice. :devil:


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

It won't be the first Crufts without the RSPCA, didn't the KC ban them before?


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

marthaMoo said:


> I think now they have pulled out other rescues and groups will follow.
> 
> The KC and Crufts will be in allot of trouble.
> 
> About time too...lol


 
No they won't it will be a huge improvement not having to put up with all that hassle we'll have our show back to enjoy once again for what it is a dog show. 

This news has made my day roll on the BBC pulling/getting thrown out too lets get some peace back in our show.


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

Schip said:


> No they won't it will be a huge improvement not having to put up with all that hassle we'll have our show back to enjoy once again for what it is a dog show.
> 
> This news has made my day roll on the BBC pulling/getting thrown out too lets get some peace back in our show.


 Peace for the breeders and pain for the dogs.
happy happy joy.
dog shows are barbaric, lets put dogs through inbreeding and pain just so we can get rosets.


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Oh really when was the last time you were at a dog show where this alleged pain is occuring eh? What feckin rosettes you talking about love there aren't any just a piece of card:lol2:

Come see my dogs tell them they're in pain and suffering, better still come see them on the morning of a show they love it, wouldn't really be able to show them otherwise. Like to see you tell my 15 yr old he's not going to live as long as a mongrel coz he's linebred so cruel the dogs climb onto a table, kennel, car boot anything to give them height coz they enjoy it and they're more than fit enough to do it!

My boy winning his class at Crufts. 








My multi titled dog ie English/American/International Champion aged 8








Said 15 yr old showing them how to do the table for a judge
















Bitch being cleaned at age 9








Same bitch watching her daughter play


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## SuperTed (Apr 19, 2007)

watched a programme a few weeks back about how much breeds have changed over the years and its rather scary actually! totally different posture's etc! but this boycott crap is a loada rubbish!


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

Schip said:


> Oh really when was the last time you were at a dog show where this alleged pain is occuring eh? What feckin rosettes you talking about love there aren't any just a piece of card:lol2:
> 
> Come see my dogs tell them they're in pain and suffering, better still come see them on the morning of a show they love it, wouldn't really be able to show them otherwise. Like to see you tell my 15 yr old he's not going to live as long as a mongrel coz he's linebred so cruel the dogs climb onto a table, kennel, car boot anything to give them height coz they enjoy it and they're more than fit enough to do it!
> 
> ...


 so what your saying is that the BBC lied about everything to do with the inbreeding and the problems caused by it and that some breeders are breeding unhealthy animals?
is that right?
pffffftttt i hate dog shows. it has nothing to do with the dogs feelings its all about the breeders/owners vanity


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Pliskens_Chains said:


> so what your saying is that the BBC lied about everything to do with the inbreeding and the problems caused by it and that some breeders are breeding unhealthy animals?
> is that right?
> pffffftttt i hate dog shows. it has nothing to do with the dogs feelings its all about the breeders/owners vanity


Its the same with most animals bred for showing sadly. One of the biggest offenders is people breeding rabbits for showing too. Also what about the new type of albino beardies being bred????? Surely thats as cruel too

Im not saying that the RSPCA have no right to do this but how they are portraying it is typical RSPCA movement that all dog breeders are bad etc etc. I have seen dog breeding gone wrong etc, but i cant see how the RSPCA being at 1 show is going to stop the breeding at home.

Would also like to point out that this is also the society that puts down healthy dogs and kittens if there is nothing "special" about them to attract owners.

Im glad something is being done but i think they are going the completely wrong way about it as usual lols.


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

The RSPCA need to try and push a law in that stops breeders breeding back dogs and bitches to its sires and dams and to make a harsh penalty for it.
they should concentrate on that instead of being anti reptile


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Yes I'm telling you Passionate Productions gave a false view of the show dog world that's a fact, the KC have lodge a complaint to Ofcom regarding the biased way this program was reported. The woman with the BIS winning Cavi has given up breeding and showing as a result of this show - fine if she has done as accused down side is an EGM being called to oust the health co-ordinator for her conduct on tv but at least she will get a chance to give a full account of her interviews rather than the editted version presented.

Fact is in every hobby INCLUDING REPTILES there is inbreeding/linebreeding this does not create the health problems unless it is already there or there is an injury to the DNA during copying. How many people on here are advertising dogs they've bred with no list of health tests, puppies from a breed they're not really that clued up on, crosses again that show no sign of any health tests being done before a mating?

There are bad folk in all hobbies and fancies Jemima Harrison and the BBC are in talks to do a follow up program to show 'the improvements made' so lets see maybe she's presented such a biased view for self gain ie look how wonderful I am and influential as I've cured all the ills in dogs! I think not love the kc and breeders, scientists etc have been working together for years to research problems that show in dogs and PEOPLE. 

Idiopathic epilepsy occurs in all animals it has many many causes including birth injury, illness, poisoning, not just genetic. My godson is eplieptic has xyy syndrome which has never presented itself within either of his parents families he has it because the sperm from his father was damaged during its developement possibly due to a mild temp/fever, inhaling chemicals at work or walking the streets etc. His brothers are not affected nor any more likely to produce an xyy themselves than any other male on the planet, but its still a genetic disorder just a simple freak occurrance that can happen to any one at any time, not because his parents maybe related!

Until there are tests available for all that ails dogs there is still a place for inbreeding as a tool to find out what is going on if a problem is a suspected in any bloodlines that way not reducing the gene pool unnecessarily!


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Dog genetic health - the KC are doing a lot for dogs.

What would adding mandatory minimum standards on levels of inbreeding achieve, except possibly forcing rare breeds into extinction, and possibly backing responsible breeders into a ridiculous situation where they need to use a less than ideal mate for their dog, simply because a calculation shows the perfect mate for their bitch is slightly too related?

If this petition went through it would simply mean responsible breeders continue what they're doing right now ... and irresponsible breeders just stop registering with the kennel club! What would that achieve?

Most reptiles are probably more inbred than most dogs. The only difference is, in dogs people keep careful pedigrees so that they KNOW what inbreeding they're doing and can track it and its results carefully, while in reptiles people don't bother keeping pedigrees so they can ignorantly think they're outcrossing.


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## GlitterBug (Mar 31, 2008)

humans are just as inbred, keep letting them do what they are doing till all the doggies get wiped out.


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## bluetongued (Apr 25, 2007)

Schip said:


> My boy winning his class at Crufts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Those are really pretty dogs....their coats look lovely....what breed are they?


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

GlitterBug said:


> humans are just as inbred, keep letting them do what they are doing till all the doggies get wiped out.


they won't be wiped out, they are the same species, just the phenotype has been manipulated by humans to change appearence for what we desire. they were 'created' artificially by human breeding. If you want to protect the doggies look to their wild cousins who are getting marginalised and destroyed so we humans can have more room and grow more food to get more obese....


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## GlitterBug (Mar 31, 2008)

missk said:


> they won't be wiped out, they are the same species, just the phenotype has been manipulated by humans to change appearence for what we desire. they were 'created' artificially by human breeding. If you want to protect the doggies look to their wild cousins who are getting marginalised and destroyed so we humans can have more room and grow more food to get more obese....


I'm not saying all will, I was messing about. I mean teh breeds that are really badly inbred.

I would rather have a wolf than a domestic dog. 

I think they look rather pretty than some breeds.

But I have to admit i think a few breeds will die out.


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

*money*

to me the root of the pedigree dog breeding problem is the money that is made from breeding dogs . breeders stand to make thousands out of just a few bitches and one stud dog. the tv programme showed the dog breeding world as it truly is , breeding animals for looks rather than health.my uncle used to breed bulldogs he had a dream to return them into a healthy breed without the over grown heads and terrible disablements bulldogs have he chose his dogs very carefully but even then he ended up with dogs with so many physical problems he would not use them as stud animals .he once bought a young bitch who ended up with breathing probs and pneumonia , the vet found out that the bitch had a deformed throat and that she inhaled her own saliva and would allways have pneumonia unless filled full of drugs, the vet was very angry that she had been sold as a brood bitch and suggested that my uncle contact the breeder which he did and have the dog euthenased.the breeder insidted that the bitch be returned to them and they gave my uncle his money back, they promised to euthenase the dog which they did but not before they bred a litter of pups from her.that shows no concern for the dog and a lot of love for the money that poor dog would make them .one of his bitches had 11 pups most of them deformed or disabled in some way,he euthenased the worst ones and spayed the others and sold them as pets for next to nothing . he was than sent hate mail and had very nasty phone calls from other bulldog breeders coz he,d sold his dogs to cheaply, and they were having drop the price of their own dogs .no concern for the dogs at all its all about money, prestige,money,red rosettes,money,reputation ,money , how the dog looks according to a breed standard at any cost , and money , did i mention money .its about time the breeders dicided to try and generate healthy dogs instead of frankendogs with inbred health issues that cost their new owners hundreds in vets bills and countless heartaches .and so often end up with the dogs life being cut short or living permanantly disabled,but then the breeders dont care once they have the money for the dog , unless of course the dog is going to be shown ,and bred from ,then they care . but only for the reputation of the stud rather than the actual dog.........


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## GlitterBug (Mar 31, 2008)

I agree that people are almost all in it for the money.

I know one woman who bred westie's and we got one for £100 because the woman had trouble selling them.

I wouldn't dare pay over £100 for a dog, I could easily get a good pet dog from a pound and be happy with it.

I'm not into winning bits of ribbon and card, I would already know my dog is the best around


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

bluetongued said:


> Those are really pretty dogs....their coats look lovely....what breed are they?


 
Schipperkes the smallest belgian shepherd dog 11 - 13 inches to the shoulder with great coats, ie no brushing required even outside the ring at Crufts that gold male just had my hands go over his back to flatten and up his neck to fluff his ruff up no nonesence breed with few health problems.

Have to say the RSPCA might be in for a bit of a shock if the KC take back the £48k donation made to them to help improve the general welfare of dogs ------- erm talk about biting the hand that feeds ya eh? As a pedigree dog breeder I most certainly will be making my views on this donation known to the KC as I'm sure the money would be better used by research scientists or breed specific rescues after all its OUR money.


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

*money*

i bet you cant get a shnipperk for less than 500 quid. a customer of mine has just paid 1600 for bulldog , its allready cost her over 200 in vets bills and its only 6 months old, my mums cavelier has cost her hundreds coz she has congenitall heart disease.........a friends rough collie had to be destroyed coz his head was too narrow for his brain and he went nuts , another friends german shepherd dog had no hip joints at all and my sisters sheperd only had one hip joint. another friends cocker spanial died on the operating table due to a congenital heart murmer, my own bulldog had four operations on his hips and ears before he 4 years old just to make him comfortable.....they are just a few of the ones i know ,how many other dogs in this stupid world of dog breeding are going to suffer and have to be dstroyed due to congenital diseases before the kennel club takes action and stops inbreeding totally, there s such a thing as hybrid vigour .and no its not producing mongrels its breeding from different non related bloodlines of the same breed. the thoroughbred horse breeding industry discovered hybrid vigour years ago, and use it is to great effect, breeding strong healthy animals that look as they desire and perform well too.why cant the dog breeders do the same instead of breeding mother to son and grandad to granddaughter, its immorral. they should also ban any dog from being shown and bred from if it carries any form of congenital disease, but then sadly there would probably be only 3 or 4 dogs at crufts next year if they did.......and peter purvis and ben fogle would be made redundant.i used to love crufts and allways looked forward to it . not any more its a rediculous show of frankenstein like monster dogs now and not worth watching.......


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## bluetongued (Apr 25, 2007)

Schip said:


> *Schipperkes *the smallest belgian shepherd dog 11 - 13 inches to the shoulder with great coats, ie no brushing required even outside the ring at Crufts that gold male just had my hands go over his back to flatten and up his neck to fluff his ruff up no nonesence breed with few health problems.
> 
> Have to say the RSPCA might be in for a bit of a shock if the KC take back the £48k donation made to them to help improve the general welfare of dogs ------- erm talk about biting the hand that feeds ya eh? As a pedigree dog breeder I most certainly will be making my views on this donation known to the KC as I'm sure the money would be better used by research scientists or breed specific rescues after all its OUR money.


 
Ahh, hence your name!!


Obviously some breeds have more health problems than others...shortest snout, smallest dog, biggest etc.

But I would hope any good breeder who wants a good name and reputation would want to eradicte any health problems in their breeding stock ie getting them spayed etc and either keeping them retired or selling for a nominal fee to a pet home.

Unfortunatly like any thing where us humans are concerned you will get some who have bad practice and will sweep things under the carpet or hide things to keep their reputation (and £££).

Although my OH hates the whole KC and pedigree dog thing myself and my kids always enjoy watching Crufts..... oh, and horse of the year show...sad arent we!:lol2:


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Trillian said:


> I know someone who has the most beautiful Collie and in my eyes, looks like a show quality dog. However, his owner was told that his ears weren't folded over properly and to correct the "defect", she would have to hang weights off of the ears (I think they call it "tipping") until they were the acceptable standard. Needless to say, she declined the cruel practice. :devil:


I used to keep shetland sheepdogs and they are supposed to have folded down ears. The breeder recommended putting blobs of kaolin on the tips of the ears to make them flop over and to spend 10 mins 3 times a day massaging the folded over ear. I didnt bother, my dogs were gorgeous with normal healthy upright ears. Apparently some owners even have the ears altered by cosmetic surgery. Its all gone too far.


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

denny2 said:


> i bet you cant get a shnipperk for less than 500 quid. a customer of mine has just paid 1600 for bulldog , its allready cost her over 200 in vets bills and its only 6 months old, my mums cavelier has cost her hundreds coz she has congenitall heart disease.........a friends rough collie had to be destroyed coz his head was too narrow for his brain and he went nuts , another friends german shepherd dog had no hip joints at all and my sisters sheperd only had one hip joint. another friends cocker spanial died on the operating table due to a congenital heart murmer, my own bulldog had four operations on his hips and ears before he 4 years old just to make him comfortable.....they are just a few of the ones i know ,how many other dogs in this stupid world of dog breeding are going to suffer and have to be dstroyed due to congenital diseases before the kennel club takes action and stops inbreeding totally, there s such a thing as hybrid vigour .and no its not producing mongrels its breeding from different non related bloodlines of the same breed. the thoroughbred horse breeding industry discovered hybrid vigour years ago, and use it is to great effect, breeding strong healthy animals that look as they desire and perform well too.why cant the dog breeders do the same instead of breeding mother to son and grandad to granddaughter, its immorral. they should also ban any dog from being shown and bred from if it carries any form of congenital disease, but then sadly there would probably be only 3 or 4 dogs at crufts next year if they did.......and peter purvis and ben fogle would be made redundant.i used to love crufts and allways looked forward to it . not any more its a rediculous show of frankenstein like monster dogs now and not worth watching.......


Reputable breeders will show you hip score documentation etc and also should divulge when asked the medical history of the parent animals. If people spent half the amount of time they should researching a breed before purchasing then they would know what to look out for and ask for. 

It's all about knowing who you are buying from and you should spend some time with your chosen breeder looking at their dogs, interacting with them etc, getting 1st hand experience of the breed, and they should be happy to let you do so. Too many people see an ad for a puppy, think its cute, like what the breed looks like, and the level of knowledge stops there.

Yes, breeders should all do it for the love of their breed not the money, but not all of them are, and are waiting for people with no clue to rip off. 

People who buy a dog which usually can hardly run and a head so big that few of them are actually born naturally (bulldog) and have extreme trouble taking in enough oxygen in hot weather etc etc are asking for vets fees. Too many people (not everyone...) buy a dog like that to breed and make money, not caring about the animals conformation etc, and likewise breeders will sell such animals as fit to breed when they clearly aren't to make an extra few quid (eg the example given on this thread with the bulldogs).


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

also with regard to altering appearence to fit breed standards... my dad is a vet, who has seen chow pups with ears that have been pounded into mush to make them look as they should. At least we aren't habitually slicing bits of ear off to make our dogs look more menacing like in the USA...


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

*i agree*

i totally agree with you on the buying dogs without any research a friend once bought two gordon setters to live in her two bedroom flat, the breeder knew where they were going and didnt question it ,but was very glad to accept them back as delinquents a year later free of charge , i guess its those people who keep the breeders in buissness. people buy dogs for pets and to love as companions not as walking vets bills as my mum did with her cav, even though she came from a none showing breeder who told mum that his dogs were as perfect as a cav could be and still she has heart probs.i forgot to mention that my uncles bulldog free whelped all eleven of her pups,but sadly some were monorchid , cryptorchid ,soe had cleft palate and some no hip joints, so i know it can be done but most do need ceasarian section .sadly the general public are a bit silly over their status symbol dogs and love it when there is show champions in the pedegree papers and sadly up until now they knew nothing of the problems some overly inbred pedegree dogs face with just living a noral life , but people buy out of love and pay the money and breeders proffit and are encouraged to breed more, that is a sad fact, i bet it addens your dad him being a vet........


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

your skipps are lovely.

i show german spitz mittels n kleins, have done for 20 years these are natural dogs n all mine n my mums dogs are very healthly. just coz some breeds are having health problems dont mean to say they all are. n yes you only get a piece of paper at cham shows unless its an open show. 

in everythin to do with animals you always get the users out to make money, but not everyone is like that at show you do get some that do it for a nice day out n love their animals alot. when we are at shows n it is hot we have cage fans n water bowls full at all times. 

with my experiances with the RSPCA i think they are :censor: anyway, there were to starving dogs across the road from where we live. the RSPCA were called n called n called they came out looked n want away again just leaving a card. so we kicked the door in giving them food, i phoned them again. i told them i gave em food n water so they said they were getting looked after n went away again. so i stopped doing that. i had to watch them for weeks as they were getting thinner n thinner. anyway to cut a long story short i took one of the dogs out myself n re homed it n the other dog was taken 3 weeks later by the RSPCA coz the window of the house had been smashed n the dogs head was throught it cutting it neck. the dog was on deaths door when they got it out how it servived i dont know. n they arnt even prosocuting the woman now coz she is on benefits, n its too much hastle


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## ichis-mom (May 25, 2008)

i think its too little too late they have let it go to far already and because there such big money in it its going to be impossible to stop i feel so sorry for the poor dogs. the people that deliberately breed them are cruel because there sentencing the puppies to a life of suffering and illness? why is this type of animal cruelty not illegal :devil: 
sorry rant over


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

denny2 said:


> i bet you cant get a shnipperk for less than 500 quid. a customer of mine has just paid 1600 for bulldog , its allready cost her over 200 in vets bills and its only 6 months old, my mums cavelier has cost her hundreds coz she has congenitall heart disease.........a friends rough collie had to be destroyed coz his head was too narrow for his brain and he went nuts , another friends german shepherd dog had no hip joints at all and my sisters sheperd only had one hip joint. another friends cocker spanial died on the operating table due to a congenital heart murmer, my own bulldog had four operations on his hips and ears before he 4 years old just to make him comfortable.....they are just a few of the ones i know ,how many other dogs in this stupid world of dog breeding are going to suffer and have to be dstroyed due to congenital diseases before the kennel club takes action and stops inbreeding totally, there s such a thing as hybrid vigour .and no its not producing mongrels its breeding from different non related bloodlines of the same breed. the thoroughbred horse breeding industry discovered hybrid vigour years ago, and use it is to great effect, breeding strong healthy animals that look as they desire and perform well too.why cant the dog breeders do the same instead of breeding mother to son and grandad to granddaughter, its immorral. they should also ban any dog from being shown and bred from if it carries any form of congenital disease, but then sadly there would probably be only 3 or 4 dogs at crufts next year if they did.......and peter purvis and ben fogle would be made redundant.i used to love crufts and allways looked forward to it . not any more its a rediculous show of frankenstein like monster dogs now and not worth watching.......


Maybe if you'd selected your breeders better you would not have been unfortunate and yep your damn right you won't find a schipperke for less than £500 as there were only 23 bred last year love! On the plus side they self whelp rarely suffer with health problems live to a very rip old age and remain active until about 10 mins before they die!

Lets do this hybrid vigour thing for a moment, based on my own experiences of seeking new bloodlines to keep my gene pool healthy - yes most of us do despite Ms Jemima's portraly of us. 3 dogs were brought into the UK as part of this expansion along with a new bloodline from Sweden via a vet who moved to the UK.

Great brilliant we can all do out crosses etc, all health checks were done via the American systems and FCI regulations plus the vet doing her own extra testings because she could. 3 years down the line we are struck down with a fatal genetic problem that has arrived from the USA imports! This is a recessive gene, is 100% fatal to all animals who posses 2 copies and up until that time was undetectable, even with a pm of animals that have been pts with cluster seizures! 

The disease is Mucopolysaccharidosis type IIIB (MPS IIIB) aka Sanfilippo syndrome type IIIB in humans how do we know about this problem? Penn university is how remember the guy on Pedigree Exposed from there, well he's your man yet according to the program he is all against pedigree dogs! That was 5 years ago now the schipperke bloodlines in the uk are reducing again purely based on the fear of bringing in another unknown factor to our gene pool. 

Yes I have carrier dogs and Yes I breed with them, but I also test prior to breeding even animals that are proven clear by parents or the DNA test, are re tested, this is a very costly exercise but one I would NOT bypass for the world or any awards at a dog show!!! Now if it wasn't for schipperkes being bred by the university this test would have taken years longer to develop ergo more human children had the potential to be born and their families suffer a horrific life with them. So out of the bad has come good because now both people and dogs can be born free from this horrific disease as long as we follow simple guidelines and test test test. I have certificates to show my dogs status, I have DNA profiles to prove my pedigree's, I microchip my dogs to ensure a true match for both documents as well as reunited should they be stolen or lost by their owners.

National MPS Society | Home

This is just one example of the work we Nazi style breeders have been doing over the last decade or so since science has given us the opportunity to shed some light on possible problems, this has not been achieved in the last mth since Ms Harrison and her cronies broadcasted that program we were already working towards a better future for our breeds!


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> i show german spitz mittels n kleins, have done for 20 years


Oh bless! I'd love a german spitz one day, they seem like perfect mini agility dogs to me. They are such lovely little dogs.



Schip said:


> Yes I have carrier dogs and Yes I breed with them, but I also test prior to breeding even animals that are proven clear by parents or the DNA test, are re tested, this is a very costly exercise but one I would NOT bypass for the world or any awards at a dog show!!!


An expensive process - most health tests are, hip scores and eye testing ain't cheap. Good job people are willing to pay more than £100 a piece for health tested, well bred dogs or I don't think breeders could afford to breed them.


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

*dont take this so personally*

please , you seem to have taken this so personally, you seem to be in the minority of dog breeders but you cant deny that you make money from breeding dogs and maybe if the dogs you breed were more popular and didnt look like mongrels they would be more popular and in the same collective inbred boat as the cavilier, the german shepherd the cocker spaniel, the labrador, the ridgeback the ,the rottwieler,the bulldog, the rough collie.the boxer the pug and every other poor breed that has been inbred for the last 40 years or so. i applaud you and the breeders of shnipperkes long may you breed and take care to keep you bloodlines strong and healthy, emphasis on the healthy. but how long will it be before they are in there along with all the other breeds , depends on how greedy the breeders get i guess.personally tho i dont buy dogs from breeders i rescue mine from council kennels after the idiots who origionally buy them leave them to be rehomed.....i keep my horse in stables which has a council run stray kennels attached to it. i was chatting to the owner and he had just done a tot up of how many dogs had been taken in since it opened 15 years ago , the total was in excess of 20 thousand and allmost a third of them were pedegrees. all had to be either rehomed or destroyed , and thats just in the northeast of england.......


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

toyah said:


> Dog genetic health - the KC are doing a lot for dogs.
> 
> What would adding mandatory minimum standards on levels of inbreeding achieve, except possibly forcing rare breeds into extinction, and possibly backing responsible breeders into a ridiculous situation where they need to use a less than ideal mate for their dog, simply because a calculation shows the perfect mate for their bitch is slightly too related?
> 
> ...


I disagree that the reason there is no reptile register is so breeders can stay ignorant. Are you suggesting that reptile breeders dont bother keeping pedigrees so they can ignorantly think they are outcrossing...

( note the words in red are entirely your own)





I am totally convinced there are many many more genuine reasons than the ONE you have cited here in this thread. I can think of several reasons other than the one you have given, not least the complicated logistics and science behind reptile pedigrees. There is also the non-definitive ability to define beyond doubt many of the morphs in snake and lizard breeding. Such as morph coloured bearded dragons or many of the morelia species. The logistics behind idetifying a TRUE citrus bearded dragon could go on for decades, and the pedigrees be argued over for even longer.

The absolute lack of genetic testing for reptiles would be another sticking point if proof absolute was required in the gaining a pedigree for a snake. In species such as GTP etc. Also the locality boas which would indeed raise issues about identification.

As a breeder yourself Toyah it is interesting that you would suggest the above highlighted in red as the reason for the lack of "pedigrees" in the reptile breeding community. Both interesting and strange. I am sure on reflection you will be able to see how a sweeping comment such as this makes little sense when applied to genuine reptile breeders. I am sure you would place yourself in the category of respected and caring breeders and I am positive the reason behind you not attempting to have produced pedigrees for the snakes you breed will be the same as any other well respected breeder.


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

*another issue*

and here begins another issue, can anyone tell me what is gonna happen to this glut of corn snakes bearded dragons and leopard gekos we seem to be having everyone of you seem to be just breeding for the bloodey sake of it............no wonder rescue centres are full of neglected and unwanted reptiles.


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

denny2 said:


> and here begins another issue, can anyone tell me what is gonna happen to this glut of corn snakes bearded dragons and leopard gekos we seem to be having everyone of you seem to be just breeding for the bloodey sake of it............no wonder rescue centres are full of neglected and unwanted reptiles.



Certainly not 'everyone' is breeding their corns or bearded dragons. I for one don't breed any of my animals. All the animals I have here are just pets, that stay for life. If my horsfield Kiara does in fact turn out to be female I MAY end up breeding her, so as to introduce more captive bred tortoises to the UK though. (Far to many imports coming into this country).Both tortoises were bought as suspected female and so far Deemo has definatley proven himself to be a male.

So I hardly think it's fair to tar everyone with the same brush. I admit i'm always worried by the sheer number of normal corns bred each year when quite a few people seem to only want the more high end morphs. But equally their are more saps than just me out there who will take in all the lovely normals/classics.


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

denny2 said:


> please , you seem to have taken this so personally, you seem to be in the minority of dog breeders but you cant deny that you make money from breeding dogs and maybe if the dogs you breed were more popular and didnt look like mongrels they would be more popular and in the same collective inbred boat as the cavilier, the german shepherd the cocker spaniel, the labrador, the ridgeback the ,the rottwieler,the bulldog, the rough collie.the boxer the pug and every other poor breed that has been inbred for the last 40 years or so. i applaud you and the breeders of shnipperkes long may you breed and take care to keep you bloodlines strong and healthy, emphasis on the healthy. but how long will it be before they are in there along with all the other breeds , depends on how greedy the breeders get i guess.personally tho i dont buy dogs from breeders i rescue mine from council kennels after the idiots who origionally buy them leave them to be rehomed.....i keep my horse in stables which has a council run stray kennels attached to it. i was chatting to the owner and he had just done a tot up of how many dogs had been taken in since it opened 15 years ago , the total was in excess of 20 thousand and allmost a third of them were pedegrees. all had to be either rehomed or destroyed , and thats just in the northeast of england.......


I don't take it personally Denny but I will take any and every opportunity to show we're not all of the same ilk, schipperkes looking like mongrel dear lord I don't think so :lol2: They're not so popular because folk just don't appreciate their personalities ie they have a brain and know how to use it like most spitz type breeds free thinking I think they call it!

Mrs DirtyDozen what's your affix know a few German Spitz breeders in both sizes on account we're in the same group you lot and puddles make life very trying for us no nonsence breeds like schips? Have a friend in Shiba's who is usually outside the ring with me complaining - fecking hairy, flashy beasties out to get us again followed closely by the argument as to which of us is going to be last!


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## ichis-mom (May 25, 2008)

Well as much as i love dogs i will never get one again its just not worth it after the cost of it then all the vet bills then they die young and all it leaves is heartache i am def sticking to skunks and after the prob with dogs i will be watching the skunks i buy and if i breed them i will be keeping an eye on bloodlines because there perfect the way they are


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Talking about money. Did u know at christmas the RSPCA gets enough dog food to feed its animals all through the year. So what happens to the rest of it???? It is either thrown away or sold on. Also would like to point out how much do the RSPCA charge for "adopting" a dog or cat. I think u will find in some cases its over £100.

I still dont see what the RSPCA are going to achieve by going to 1 show. Also would like to point out i have never seen an RSPCA officer ever lols.

At crufts it wont be the big time breeders in trouble it will be the small breeder who has brought their 1st dog which is unhealthy. Or maybe an agility dog who goes lame who the RSPCA will say its due to "neglect" and cruelty just so they can prove their theory. They will never catch the big breeders and if they do a bribe will be involved as i have seen it with horses. 

Yea some dogs are overpriced etc but what about some snakes that are well over £1000 due to being het for something or other.


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

*Allegedly* - its dumped at your local tip, big dog food producers donate loads and its dumped by the wagon load.


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

sparkle said:


> I disagree that the reason there is no reptile register is so breeders can stay ignorant. Are you suggesting that reptile breeders dont bother keeping pedigrees so they can ignorantly think they are outcrossing...


No, I'm not suggesting they do this for that reason - but it's certainly a side-effect that not keeping accurate records over multiple breeders and owners creates. This is one reason why other animal fancies tend to keep pedigrees.



sparkle said:


> not least the complicated logistics and science behind reptile pedigrees. There is also the non-definitive ability to define beyond doubt many of the morphs in snake and lizard breeding. Such as morph coloured bearded dragons or many of the morelia species. The logistics behind idetifying a TRUE citrus bearded dragon could go on for decades, and the pedigrees be argued over for even longer.


There is no complicated logistics or science behind reptile pedigrees, any more than any other animal. A pedigree is just a "family tree" showing the names of the parents, their descriptions (to the best of the owner's ability), and any other pertinent information the person producing the pedigree chooses to include. There's no science in that at all!

Most small animal fancies do not have central registration bodies like dogs and cats do, but breeders produce their own pedigrees showing the history of the animal, which assists not only in identification of possible heterozygous genes or potential linage health problems, but also in making sound breeding decisions such as - in the example I initially gave - assisting in finding lines that will work well together when mated.



sparkle said:


> As a breeder yourself Toyah it is interesting that you would suggest the above highlighted in red as the reason for the lack of "pedigrees" in the reptile breeding community. Both interesting and strange. I am sure on reflection you will be able to see how a sweeping comment such as this makes little sense when applied to genuine reptile breeders. I am sure you would place yourself in the category of respected and caring breeders and I am positive the reason behind you not attempting to have produced pedigrees for the snakes you breed will be the same as any other well respected breeder.


Firstly, I did not suggest that as the reason - I pointed out it was one of the effects of not keeping pedigrees.

As I am not in the business of lying and making things up, of course my snakes don't have pedigrees - since I have not been told *their* history, then how could I supply such information? But everyone who has bought a snake I've bred from me will know who the mother and father were, and were they were bought from/who they were bred by (this information is all on my website). Once I get to second, third, fourth generation of my own breeding then it will be more appropriate to supply that information written down as a pedigree, true - and once I get there, then I will.

My original fancy rats came without pedigrees - it was not the norm to provide them back then. Once I got to second and third generation, I started making sure all the information was passed on in written format, and I will continue to do this with my snakes too. I don't see what's "strange" or "interesting" about that?

*edit* sorry for this taking the thread off-topic!


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

hi schip 

my affix is sandgrown, got most of our dogs from zandaplatz but she has french bull dogs now, galvazach (linda conner) and windlee (pat bread) my spelling is rubbish tho so my have spelt em wrong.

do you know linda she was judging at an open show a few weeks back in morecambe gave my mum BOB n she went on to win the open show. :no1:

some of my friends have schipps do you know janet holland?

my i add that schipps an german spitz defo do not look like mongrals they ar both naturals dogs and very attractive to look at and both breeds have no health issus and wont in the future 

and i dont make any money off my dogs we have had a few litters and sold about 4 pups and kept all the rest that is why we have quite a few,they all live in the house n the OAP's have there own room as we never get rid of any of our dogs except the 4 pups. we only had the litters to produce our show dogs as we have red n whites which are very rare in german spitz and my mum was the second in the contry to produce a red n white.linda conner was the first, n our boy toddy came from a stud from lindas dark side of the moon.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

toyah said:


> No, I'm not suggesting they do this for that reason - but it's certainly a side-effect that not keeping accurate records over multiple breeders and owners creates. This is one reason why other animal fancies tend to keep pedigrees.


Ahh then I do appologise.. I quoted word for word what your suggestion was in red type just to double check I had not misunderstood. 

I see now you have decided it is a side effect which totally changes the meaning what you wrote. 

The clarification required to understand your previous post I had initially questioned was missing. Thank you for making it clear and refelcting on quite what it was you ACTUALLY meant.


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

_hi schip 

my affix is sandgrown, got most of our dogs from zandaplatz but she has french bull dogs now, galvazach (linda conner) and windlee (pat bread) my spelling is rubbish tho so my have spelt em wrong.

do you know linda she was judging at an open show a few weeks back in morecambe gave my mum BOB n she went on to win the open show. :no1:

some of my friends have schipps do you know janet holland?_

Linda's had schips in the past and yep I know Janet she's our breed note writer for Our Dogs, hoping she's got my last email re the Helsinki research group sending swabs over to get as many DNA samples from UK dogs as they can. A member of the research team plus a couple of her friends are all schip breeders in Finland so killing 2 birds with one stone as they say visiting for Club show in October and hoping to get the swabs done too! The Helsinki team are researching epilepsy in canines and have a research assistant for each breed they're looking at apparently working with one of the guys at the AHT too.

Congrats to mum know how that one feels my multi titled boy did it at Sedgley and Gornal under Jeff Luscott a few years back before he got his first CC. I know the likes of Pat Hawker Chilite and Pauline & Stuart Furber Holbain old ring craft in north shrops, Chris Serman Tymy and her sidekick Melanie Hill Kilima both at my local ringcraft. Move size and go for Jill Powell Brookwell another schip owner, the Rogersons NOrsregor used to run our ring craft least said eh lol Ellen Day another schip owner oh and Doreen Posnett never know if she's doing the schips or German Spitz. Ever get the feeling you've been at this too long lol?


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

sparkle said:


> Ahh then I do appologise.. I quoted word for word what your suggestion was in red type just to double check I had not misunderstood.
> 
> I see now you have decided it is a side effect which totally changes the meaning what you wrote.
> 
> The clarification required to understand your previous post I had initially questioned was missing. Thank you for making it clear and refelcting on quite what it was you ACTUALLY meant.


You did indeed misunderstand sparkle - but I was happy to clarify to help you with your problem. You are welcome, and your apology is accepted 

("I have to stay late at work so I won't be able to go to your party" - does not mean I deliberately chose to stay late at work so I could avoid going to your party. And the same sentence structure, "reptile breeders do not keep pedigrees so they can end up inbreeding animals" does not mean they choose to inbreed animals so decide not to keep pedigrees.)


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

i think it was pat hawker we used to stud our klien cookie with her brown n white champ boy cant remember his name would have to get the paper work out, my mum also knows rosie archer i think it is, she has schips.

yer i know the rogersons n well yer know what u mean :whistling2: did you see them about 2 years back on telly, hoilday show down. :lol2:was gona get a husky bitch from them a few years ago but decided to stay with the spitz. my mum now has a pap she shows n two chinese chrested powderpuffs from vanatonia kennels they are lovely, stunning dogs from roger stone that she has know for years but he isnt too good at the moment, so lee is taking over more.

will av to say hi if i see you at any shows my mum dont really go past liverpool way when showing as she is a bad travler. my BF (dirtydozen) says we meet you on the M6 service station when you bought a snake from us, i remember but i stayed in the car so didnt see you, dont know if you remember?? :lol2:


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## stinglestick (Aug 28, 2008)

The bbc is contracted to cover Crufts for 2 more years and apparently they were so appalled at the way the 'lesser' animals were treated to achieve greatness that they are considering pulling out of airing it ever again.I hope they do decide to pull the plug on it.


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

You mean Bushbaby? Knew him as a baby again member of the same ringcraft and Pat does the pregnancy scans etc. Only reason I watched that series was to see them with the dogs, they know their dogs and do well but..................:whistling2: Roger and I had a bit of a 'do' a while back over the Lishinto breeder, man I've never known a person suffer so badly at the hands of their 'fellow breeders' but she did win her court case and got her dogs back leaving the other side with an £8k barrister bill - not bad for a disabled woman doing the work no solicitor!

Just watched Bill Lambert on 'The Wright Stuff' couldn't get thru on the phone but did notice the slant and only 2 callers to get on air were anti KC and pedigree dogs - funny that eh? Bill did a good job defending us and putting the point across that we've been hips scoring for over 40 yrs along with other tests being used by breeders when science can offer them. 

Personally I think WE the pedigree dog breeders/show folk should boycott Crufts if the BBC are there, give the show back to the folk who know better ie dog breeders!


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## vetdebbie (Jan 4, 2008)

toyah said:


> ("I have to stay late at work so I won't be able to go to your party" - does not mean I deliberately chose to stay late at work so I could avoid going to your party. And the same sentence structure, "reptile breeders do not keep pedigrees so they can end up inbreeding animals" does not mean they choose to inbreed animals so decide not to keep pedigrees.)


Technically both sentences require commas between the separate clauses to make the meaning clear! *slaps self for being anal* (damn that proofreading course!)


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

vetdebbie said:


> Technically both sentences require commas between the separate clauses to make the meaning clear! *slaps self for being anal* (damn that proofreading course!)


LOL yes if I was writing formally (rather than quickly posting on a forum) I would have included that - then again if I was writing formally I would have used therefore rather than so and then not used a comma. As a grammarian I should know have known better :whistling2:


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## Kazini (Jul 20, 2008)

I know this thread's kinda dead now but there are a lot of misguided opinions here. Not to sound condescending, but you shouldn't believe everything you read/see on a supposedly revelational T.V documentary - lies and deceit work both ways.



> The RSPCA's chief veterinary adviser, Mark Evans, said: "Dog shows using current breed standards as the main judging criteria actively encourage both the intentional breeding of deformed and disabled dogs and the inbreeding of closely related animals. Intentionally breeding deformed and disabled animals is morally unjustifiable and has to stop." He added: "There is compelling scientific evidence that the health and welfare of hundreds of thousands of pedigree dogs is seriously compromised as a result."


Dog shows solely judging conformation do not encourage the breeding of "deformed and disabled" dogs: that's the opposite of conformation. Money, however, _does_. You spend more money than you make in the KC, at least initially, and that puts a lot of puppy peddlers off.
People that breed deformed and disabled dogs are people with illimitably little knowledge on their breed and/or the sort of people involved with puppy mills, ie. careless breeding for cash. That's where you'd find your cheap schipperke, Denny - and I bet you the meager money it would cost you to buy it that it wouldn't really be a schipperke at all.
A lot of people involved with the KC have respect for animals and the time, money, dedication and knowledge to give them to boot. If there is "compelling scientific evidence that the health and welfare of hundreds of thousands of pedigree dogs is seriously compromised" then I'd like to see it. That could be a disproportionate and/or exaggerated quote, 'hundreds and thousands' is a bit of an idiom. And of course the health of animals is going to be compromised by disability! Congratulations, Captain Obvious!



GlitterBug said:


> I agree that people are almost all in it for the money.





denny2 said:


> a customer of mine has just paid 1600 for bulldog , its allready cost her over 200 in vets bills and its only 6 months old, my mums cavelier has cost her hundreds coz she has congenitall heart disease.........a friends rough collie had to be destroyed coz his head was too narrow for his brain and he went nuts , another friends german shepherd dog had no hip joints at all and my sisters sheperd only had one hip joint. another friends cocker spanial died on the operating table due to a congenital heart murmer, my own bulldog had four operations on his hips and ears before he 4 years old just to make him comfortable.....they are just a few of the ones i know ,how many other dogs in this stupid world of dog breeding are going to suffer and have to be dstroyed due to congenital diseases before the kennel club takes action and stops inbreeding totally


Then you have both, unfortunately, met the wrong sort of people, and have likely been snared by tangents of those puppy mills or backyard/hobbyist breeders will little knowledge concerning health. Labradors are particularly notorious for their hip problems but they're a popular and emblematic breed, so ignorant people buy 2 and breed them. It doesn't have to involve the KC. 



missk said:


> Reputable breeders will show you hip score documentation etc and also should divulge when asked the medical history of the parent animals. If people spent half the amount of time they should researching a breed before purchasing then they would know what to look out for and ask for.
> It's all about knowing who you are buying from and you should spend some time with your chosen breeder looking at their dogs, interacting with them etc, getting 1st hand experience of the breed, and they should be happy to let you do so. Too many people see an ad for a puppy, think its cute, like what the breed looks like, and the level of knowledge stops there.
> Yes, breeders should all do it for the love of their breed not the money, but not all of them are, and are waiting for people with no clue to rip off.
> People who buy a dog which usually can hardly run and a head so big that few of them are actually born naturally (bulldog) and have extreme trouble taking in enough oxygen in hot weather etc etc are asking for vets fees. Too many people (not everyone...) buy a dog like that to breed and make money, not caring about the animals conformation etc, and likewise breeders will sell such animals as fit to breed when they clearly aren't to make an extra few quid (eg the example given on this thread with the bulldogs).


Did anyone miss this post? It's exactly what I was trying to say.



denny2 said:


> they should also ban any dog from being shown and bred from if it carries any form of congenital disease, but then sadly there would probably be only 3 or 4 dogs at crufts next year if they did.......


I agree that dogs with genetic illnesses shouldn't be bred, but again there's likely a portion of people at the KC that agree with you.



Mal said:


> I used to keep shetland sheepdogs and they are supposed to have folded down ears. The breeder recommended putting blobs of kaolin on the tips of the ears to make them flop over and to spend 10 mins 3 times a day massaging the folded over ear. I didnt bother, my dogs were gorgeous with normal healthy upright ears. Apparently some owners even have the ears altered by cosmetic surgery. Its all gone too far.


That post summarizes this whole thread and my opinion. 



denny2 said:


> and here begins another issue, can anyone tell me what is gonna happen to this glut of corn snakes bearded dragons and leopard gekos we seem to be having everyone of you seem to be just breeding for the bloodey sake of it............no wonder rescue centres are full of neglected and unwanted reptiles.


A lot of people breed their animals to contribute knowledge and improved genetics into the communities surrounding their species. Others breed to introduce new bloodlines which therefore avoids inbreeding later on when there's a call for breeding. Your friend at the RSPCA even inadvertently admitted that there only seems to be problems with "the inbreeding of closely related animals", which is often true. Inbreeding can strengthen certain attributes. Do you think the bullet proof mutt has an immaculate ancestry?

I'm not in any way defending the breeding of disabled or deformed dogs. I'm just fully aware that members of the Kennel Club aren't the only culprits in bad breeding.


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

Pedigree have pulled there sponsorship for crufts : )

Pedigree pulls sponsorship of Crufts | UK news | guardian.co.uk


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

denny2 said:


> a customer of mine has just paid 1600 for bulldog , its allready cost her over 200 in vets bills and its only 6 months old


So she bought a breed KNOWN for having problems with breathing/running/etc and expected it magically wouldn't? If you don't want a dog that can't breathe, don't buy a dog breed with a short nose. If you don't want a dog that has fits because its head is too narrow, don't buy a dog with a narrow head. If you don't want a dog with hip dysplasia, don't buy a pup from parents who have poor or NO hip scores.



denny2 said:


> you cant deny that you make money from breeding dogs


Actually, a breeder that's doing what they SHOULD - a responsible breeder - bloody well won't make money on breeding pups. They'll basically be breaking even on the litter since they'll have been doing all the health tests and so forth for their dogs. And it's the buyer's responsibility to find a reputable breeder who does the tests if they want a healthy dog - not just to find the first dog in their area of the appropriate breed and at a price they'd LIKE to pay.

I paid £450 for a German shepherd bitch. Good hip scores - that's something we looked for - and yeah, the breeder's dogs had won a lot of shows too.

Shame we didn't find out that our dog's sire never housetrained until eight months along the line when we were going out of our heads cleaning up dog poo in the house every day.



Kazini said:


> Inbreeding can strengthen certain attributes. Do you think the bullet proof mutt has an immaculate ancestry?


It's great how Labradoodles have inherited the genetic faults of BOTH parent breeds, isn't it? A first-generation mutt from two breeds that don't carry ANY of the same genetic diseases may well be healthy, but breed one breed known for hip dysplasia to another one known for it, no matter how distantly related the breeds, and you'll probably get pups with hip dysplasia!


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

*ooer.....*

good god, i,m being quoted rather a lot here. in my defence , not that i should be defending myself, all i know is that , people i know have bought expensive dogs, my sisters in particuar came from a shepherd breeder of very good repute in the beleif that her pup wouldnt have any genetic problems . And no one goes out and spends 1600 quid on a bulldog with out learning about them and going to a reputable breeder , would you ? i doubt it,why do you assume, and why do you want to beleive and convince everyone on this forum that the examples that i know of did.??? sorry but just about every breeder who knocks out litter after litter or sells the use of a stud dog , is doing so for the money , thinly coated with the idea that its for the good of the breed , or for the learnig about a species. if its not for the money then tell me why dogs in particular are becoming so expensive. i know (so you dont need to remind me) that there are some very very responsible breeders , but for every responsible one there are hundreds who breed and regester dogs with the kc who arnt so responsible.......and a note about inbreeding , would you breed your son and daughter to make sure you dont get a ginger kid, or would you breed with your dad to make sure you got a blonde with blue eyes. i very much doubt it , but people arnt so bothered about the inbreeding of dogs , cats and other animals . i find that very strange. surely there are now enough bloodlines to breed good quality animals without resorting to inbreeding nazi,isms. ....


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## Juggernaut (Aug 10, 2008)

stucoady said:


> Having seen how pugs for example used to look over 100 years ago, I just can not understand how anyone would think the pugs they have created today are a better breed? It's so crule and wrong


its horrific what the crufts breeders do, especially with the ridgeback's

but damn them pugs are cute as hell :blush:


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Juggernaut said:


> its horrific what the crufts breeders do, especially with the ridgeback's
> 
> but damn them pugs are cute as hell :blush:


 
Love the way ALL breeders who qualify their dogs for Crufts and Exhibit there are tarred with the same brush. 

The RSPCA haven't got the bottle to face angry reputable pedigree breeders at Crufts coz they'd be mobbed by folk wanting to express their thoughts on the charity. Mark Evans their own spokesman on that show had just has his GSD pts hmm sorry but aren't all pedigree dogs mutants and deformed Mark? Where's ya rescue mongrel then with its hybrid vigor? 

Pugs are adorable but that's their personality more than their looks would I have one - sorry no just too noisy when sleeping for my liking lol.


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

denny2 said:


> good god, i,m being quoted rather a lot here. in my defence , not that i should be defending myself, all i know is that , people i know have bought expensive dogs, my sisters in particuar came from a shepherd breeder of very good repute in the beleif that her pup wouldnt have any genetic problems . And no one goes out and spends 1600 quid on a bulldog with out learning about them and going to a reputable breeder , would you ? i doubt it,why do you assume, and why do you want to beleive and convince everyone on this forum that the examples that i know of did.??? sorry but just about every breeder who knocks out litter after litter or sells the use of a stud dog , is doing so for the money , thinly coated with the idea that its for the good of the breed , or for the learnig about a species. if its not for the money then tell me why dogs in particular are becoming so expensive. i know (so you dont need to remind me) that there are some very very responsible breeders , but for every responsible one there are hundreds who breed and regester dogs with the kc who arnt so responsible.......and a note about inbreeding , would you breed your son and daughter to make sure you dont get a ginger kid, or would you breed with your dad to make sure you got a blonde with blue eyes. i very much doubt it , but people arnt so bothered about the inbreeding of dogs , cats and other animals . i find that very strange. surely there are now enough bloodlines to breed good quality animals without resorting to inbreeding nazi,isms. ....


The bloodlines don't expand just because there are more dogs in the world, not even the wolf is a wild type its still a mutation that has developed over time to produce the animals we see today. How often do you think they move their genetic bloodlines around, son takes over from father and so on? Only if a male from another area beats the Alpha male of an established pack do they inject new bloodlines and even then chances are he's related to via his own father/gfather/uncle etc who possibly left the pack he's moved into.

In reptiles so many believe tis ok to breed siblings, any Australian Fuana has got to be inbred as they closed their borders to exporting native species in 1960. More than once I've been offered siblings with the phrase 'its ok to breed them to each other they don't know they're family and reptiles can cope with it!' I wonder what sort of diversity you'd get if you DNA profiled bearded dragons say or some of the highend royal morphs who have been inbreed to prove out genetics and produce more animals of the same morph.


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