# My husbands so talented.



## missbehavin (Sep 8, 2006)

Before My husband had to take a little holiday away from us he built an amazing tank for our baby dragons. It has bridges and rocks and slopes on to platforms, leafy shelters, bathing pool. The dragons love it and its great to see them enjoying there home.

Anyway. When he returns home he's going to be jobless and was wondering, whats the market like building and selling custom vivs? He's built some lovely ones for our reps. Do you think theres money in it?


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

If you can deliver around the country and offer a competitively lower than retailer prices, for custom sizes in as good a quality and finish, then I think you will find that there is a market..

But I don't think it would ever replace the money you would get from having a job.. you probably wouldn't earn even close to minimum wage considering the time that's put in, the cost of the goods, and then the markup.. plus delivery cost/time.. might push the cost of the viv to similar to retailers and generally people want cheap.

If he's got nothing else to do and he enjoys doing it then I would say go for a few and see if they sell.... but i can't see it being a huge income, unless you do it in huge quantities and can get trade prices for the wood etc.


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## missbehavin (Sep 8, 2006)

Thankyou, just as I thought really, maybe it could be more of a hobby


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## liam.b (Sep 2, 2006)

could we see a pic of the viv???


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## markandwend (Jan 28, 2007)

hi, its not just making the vivs, hed have to egister his company, pay tax national insurance, have personal liability insurance etc etc. Im going through it at the minute, it not as straight forward as just saying one day, think ill make vivs for a job! Im sure that at least half the people who make them havnt done any of this, the tax man always finds out then u could be stuck with a huge tax bill that u cant afford to pay or if u dont have any insurance, if anything happens with 1 of your vivs and say hurts someone, then u r stumped aswell.
cheers,
mark.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

you cant really get injured from a viv though.

and to start with, if turning minimal profit a tax investigation leading to having to pay tax on the profits is not going to make much difference.

and if you are earning good money..like with any job you would just put your tax money aside.


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## markandwend (Jan 28, 2007)

lookd into it all, u need to register the business, even if making a minimal proit and also u need insurance to cover yourself, especially now when people can claim for anything!
cheers,
mark.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

you have until the end of the tax year to register a business if you are self employed.
thats the official line.

the non official obviousl;y being if nobody knows nothing is lost.


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## markandwend (Jan 28, 2007)

the people who loose out are the people who are doing it right!


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

nothin more right than puttin food on the table imo.

anyway, noone said anything about not doing it "right"
if it makes worthwhile money its declared and goes official..if it doesnt... it just fizzles out and no harm done, even if fully set up oficially, vat registered etc etc..if it goes belly up....you end up no worse off than if u never mentioned it... the only difference is paperwork and how many ppl knew your business failed.


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## markandwend (Jan 28, 2007)

i musthave a word with my business link relationship manager tomorrow when im in there cos obviously they are lyng about nearly everything!


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

if they have over complicated things to the point you have the defeatist attitude then yes.

however I think you might behaving trouble understanding what im saying.. that your your being arsy.
CLEARLY busness link are there to get you set up in the most official way possible.
CLEARLY nothing anyone has said on this thread contradicts that.
CLEARLY if i say you can wait to the end of the year before you HAVE to declare anything... and The Buisiness link says you do it like this.. its not that they are lying.
CLEARLY if you are going through business link you are one of 2 things, young, or clueless.
Nothing wrong with being either, thats what they are there for but you should be aware not everybody goes through them to get started and therefore not everybody goes about it the same way they will advise you too.
At no point have I said they are wrong, of course they are not.
They are there to get you set up and running, paying taxes and VAT as quickly as possible regardless of the amount of profit you are making, its better than having you on benefits/social and they no doubt get thier kick backs based on multiple things.......your personal profit not being one of them.


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## missbehavin (Sep 8, 2006)

Thanks guys lol.

Its really just an idea, give him somthing to do when he gets home, dont want him lazing around into a couch potatoe.


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## Plutino (Aug 5, 2007)

I think it'd be hard to be competitive on the standard sizes, but I could see some market for custom built, especially on the larger sizes. Seems the larger the viv, the more economical it gets to do it yourself, with the commercial 6+ x 2+ x 2+ being ridiculous. Trick would be delivery probably. I think you'd be hard pressed to cover your costs on a 2x15x15 when shops sell em 50-60 and wholesalers around the 15 mark. Also depends if you have a cheap way to get toughened glass.


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## missbehavin (Sep 8, 2006)

Thankyou.

We are quite lucky to have good contacts. I have an account with Travis perkins and The OH is very friendly with the local glazier who has done us some great deals. 
I really think it will be more of a hobby by the looks of it though. Still, it will keep him out of trouble.


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

I would like to see the viv he built for you as I am after a large stack of viv's building. A stack that will have say 9 x 3ftx2ftx2ft viv's and a small storage space on the end.

I think it's a good idea if he gets cheap wood and glass and can compete with retailers.


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## markandwend (Jan 28, 2007)

deanthorpe, how on earth have u got the chek to call me young and clueless? so what u r aying is that its ok to not pay tax and not have insurance? bloody cheeky fool!


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## missbehavin (Sep 8, 2006)

Incubuss said:


> I would like to see the viv he built for you as I am after a large stack of viv's building. A stack that will have say 9 x 3ftx2ftx2ft viv's and a small storage space on the end.
> 
> I think it's a good idea if he gets cheap wood and glass and can compete with retailers.


Hey I need to work out how to connect the camera to the pc.
Also he wont be doing anything for a while as he's having a little holiday at her magistys pleasure :naughty:


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

markandwend said:


> deanthorpe, how on earth have u got the chek to call me young and clueless? so what u r aying is that its ok to not pay tax and not have insurance? bloody cheeky fool!


No i said if your confused by what i said and having Business link set your business out for you without knowing what the difference between the ways you can do soemthing and the way certain companies do something and thinking thats the exact way, then you are proly young OR clueless.

also you do not have to have insurance [public liability] if you are selling pre-built vivariums or the like.
I said you didnt have to set up your tax payments and or returns until the end of the business year which is march 31st i think.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

You don't need to register the business, just register yourself as self-employed.


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## markandwend (Jan 28, 2007)

Yes but when you become self-employed, you must declare this to HM Revenue and Customs within three months.


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## charlie (May 19, 2007)

DeanThorpe said:


> you have until the end of the tax year to register a business if you are self employed.
> thats the official line.
> 
> the non official obviousl;y being if nobody knows nothing is lost.


 
I think you will find you have 3 months to register the business with HM customs, otherwise you can get penalised and fined.

Im a self employed Joiner and decorator have been for 7 years now, and have already made a couple of vivs for people, but tbh, you are very hard pushed to make them for less than you can buy them at retailers, unless you can make 100 a day..


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## charlie (May 19, 2007)

DeanThorpe said:


> No i said if your confused by what i said and having Business link set your business out for you without knowing what the difference between the ways you can do soemthing and the way certain companies do something and thinking thats the exact way, then you are proly young OR clueless.
> 
> also you do not have to have insurance [public liability] if you are selling pre-built vivariums or the like.
> I said you didnt have to set up your tax payments and or returns until the end of the business year which is march 31st i think.


 
Ok so if yo havent got insurance, and a piece of glass falls out because a runner has come off? Who is at fault? Id rather pay the £90 a year Public Liability than be faced witha huge legal bill.

Your Tax returns have to be in by the end of September for the taxman to calculate how much, or by 31st january if you do the calculation yourself, plus payment has to be made by then, or you get fined £100 + they start charging you interest. You also have to pay some of your next years earnings, based on the previous years income.

Its not worth trying to bend the system, it WILL come back and haunt you...

Then another payment is due on 31st July.


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## markandwend (Jan 28, 2007)

thanks charlie i agree totaly, thats why im doing everything right. 
deanthorpe must think people who do things properly are stupid! i know alot about running a buisness as my dad had his own for 34 years, and i helped him out with all kinds over the years. 
cheers,
mark.


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## DOVEY (Jul 26, 2007)

i think everyone is going a over the top with all this legal crap... 

let him sell a few vivs on the side, probably be to only people he knows etc

not like his stealing money from your pockets by selling a couple of vivs


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## markandwend (Jan 28, 2007)

its not legal crap!
lets just say u made a viv for some1, u dont have insurance, 1 of the persons children falls on the viv, slashes their arm of leg on the glass and dies! I know its a bit far fetched but COULD happen! U loose your house, car everything cos u get sued! 
As for regstering your company or registering yourself as self employed, you have to cos the tax man ALWAYS find out!


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## DOVEY (Jul 26, 2007)

ok, that is a little far fetched... i have never heard a story as drastic as that happen

who to say its the viv builders fault... because a child puts an arm through a vivarium, you cannot sue the viv builder, this is the uk mate, not america

as for the tax man finding out everything??? wake up!! if your not completely stupid, then you can earn a nice wage without declaring nothing


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## slap (Sep 23, 2006)

*ok*

bolloxs bolloxs.cash pound notes .watever.u have all gone off the rails.
look love if he enjoyed making it .go for it.
there is a market
everyone wants cash no vat.
some people are just jelous sorry cant spell 
but then again im builder'
{cash what cash}:lol2:. bloody hell do it this way. do it that way.
my arse.do it ur own way


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## missbehavin (Sep 8, 2006)

OK, i think I have alllllll I need to know guys  Shall we draw al ine under this thread now!


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

yeh i think so, im not going to further argue with these guys.
I sort my taxes out at the end of the year as theres periods of the year where i profit and periods where i lose and it all comes out at the end.
Ansd i dont get fined anything or told of by the irs.

Also you dont need public liability for building vivs..which is what i said.. i ddint say you shouldnt have it, nor that i wouldnt have it, but you dont need it, just like if someone gets hurt on the viv they buy from a shop today.. they cant claim against anyone if theres an accident.. for one it would have been in transit to many times by time it reaches its final home to be able to know at what point the frame /glass became weak etc.

Again ill say..YES// [and no the tax man doesnt alwasy find out obviously] you have to register your earnings one way or the other... but there honestly issnt a timr limit, i could put through earnings now and say they were for 2 years ago, they might ask why they didnt come through before, id simply reply, only now are all the ins and outs clear and now its ready to be worked out etc.. wouldnt be a problem.

oh and as far as this comment goes
*thanks charlie i agree totaly, thats why im doing everything right. 
deanthorpe must think people who do things properly are stupid! i know alot about running a buisness as my dad had his own for 34 years, and i helped him out with all kinds over the years. 
cheers,
mark.*

seriously.. not once did i say theres anything wrong with doing things to the letter of the law the exact way business link tell you, so what makes you think id think ppl doing things the "right" way [other ways arent wrong anyway] is stupid??
seriously.. where did i even hint at that??
its just sometimes you cant pay everything on the exact time, you cant do things the exact way that would be helpfull for other ppl, sometimes you have t get by and sort it out at the end of the year.. NOW MY FRIEND... if you do not realise this you will not last 5 mins with your own business.. unless your doing very well that is, or have soemone to lend you money/bail you out.. YOU WILL GO DOWN FAST... if you cant get your head round the simple concept of "get by how you can.... sort it out at the end" nobody loses out, everyone still gets paid, the irs get the same, your accountant gets the same.. the thing that varies is.. PROFIT.. from month to month or even day to day... so rather than struggle on the bad months and go crazy on the good ones you JUST LIVE NORMALLY and square everything up at the end.

you can do it how you want, but dont think you know enough to come in at post 4 or whatever and tell missbehavin that her husband has to do all this before he can even make a viv, cos its crap mate.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

charlie said:


> Ok so if yo havent got insurance, and a piece of glass falls out because a runner has come off? Who is at fault? Id rather pay the £90 a year Public Liability than be faced witha huge legal bill.
> 
> £90 a year? what business are you in? we pay £1500 a year for our company, again i clearly never said you shouldnt have it, but you dont have to have it if your not inviting the public intop your place of business which is what PL covers for the most part.
> what would you expect to get in compensation if a bit of glass fell out of a viv?
> ...


i think.. but i may be wrong... its just BIG ARSE COMPANYS.. that do things in quarters which is where you might be gettin confused.
small businesses do not have to file qtrly earnings/loss/profits.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

hey, 
i just wanted to finish with something a little less in your face for ppl.

How do you pay your taxes monthly or qtrly when your self employed? do you send every in and every out for a 3 month period? cos with the way things go yourd never be paying the tax on your actual profit and it would all end up right by the end of the financial year.
as your premises may pay rent monthly, but other expenses may coem out qtrly... your weeks income will varie greatly, and who estimates the margins for profit?
We have always done this all at the end of the year, i didnt and wont say any other way is wrong, but i have dealings with LTD, VAT REGI, and high turnover companys [but all still privately owned] and all of them do the books at the end.
im sure its not the norm but its not illegal, depends on your trade.

anyway but thats why im asking how you work out it on a monthly, for instance one month you may have taken very little.. but just bought the next 3 months worth of equipment/goods/whatever your trade is.. would you then get to pay nothing that qtr??? and have the irs refund you?? NO... YOU WOULD HAVE TO WAIT TILL THE END OF THE YEAR.. which is kinda why they are ok with you paying it all and sorting it all at the end... they have the next 7 years to go through it and check its to thier liking and if not they can come back and ask for more info, etc etc.. not a problem.

if you had to pay at the end of a month..and you could either spend the moeny on some more stock as your business had just got busier... and have more money next month... OR pay the tax now and not be able to expand... what would you do?? bare in mind the IRS wants you to expand and make more profit and pay more taxes in the long run anyway.
thats a question by the way, not a statement.


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## charlie (May 19, 2007)

DOVEY said:


> ok, that is a little far fetched... i have never heard a story as drastic as that happen
> 
> who to say its the viv builders fault... because a child puts an arm through a vivarium, you cannot sue the viv builder, this is the uk mate, not america
> 
> as for the tax man finding out everything??? wake up!! if your not completely stupid, then you can earn a nice wage without declaring nothing


 
Im not talking about a child putting his/her hand through the glass, Im talking about a runner coming off and a piece of glass falling on a child... Then who is to blame?

As for Dean thorpe and his knowledge of business. The TAX man will and does fine you if your Tax return is in late... Its all over the media at the time they are due..
£1500 per year is for a company, not a small business like myself and Markand Wend..

I dont think Im getting confused, I think he is... 

i had a business before I sold it, that had a turnover of 600K and the accounts were pretty complicated due to zero rated and exempt Vat on certain parts of my turnover. I had to produce yearly accounts, but my tax return had to be in with payment by the end of January, or else face fines and interest...I think you should research your stuff before spouting off.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

hey i was being nothing but polite.
we dont do qtrly's is all and i thought only larger companys did.
a turnover of 600k is impressive, did you do qtrly with that one?
and know we arent a huge company but theres various outlets most of which in very public places so that is prolly why.

Im not trying to start a fight with you or be mean, and im not spouting off, as of the original point to this thread... if you wana make vivs and see how it goes and if its worthwhil;e turning it into a proper business..its ok to start and not worry about it till you see if yourv made a worthwhile profit or not.

the irs would not appreciate you putting through books for a business thats lost money, they would launch an investigation cos they would effectively owe you money fdor loss of profit [loss] and owe you at the least, any tax urv paid back.. they HATE that, best to not mention anything till your established.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

so charlie... is everything above board and registered with your viv building company?


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## charlie (May 19, 2007)

My viv building is done as part of my established business. ima joiner, so its just a normal days work..

The taxman, wouldnt even see a loss, cuz i wouldnt work at a loss, as I said previous, making Vivs is not gonna make you much money, as most people think you can beat shop bought vivs and it just aint the case. Even if you did make a loss, it would have to be a subsatantial one before the taxman came knocking


To make a living where I am, you have to charge a minimum of £15 an hour, so take a 3ft x 2ftx2ft viv. Probably 3 hours labour to do it properly (thats if its contiboard), then you have to buy the materials, glass,vents,doorhandles,runners etc...You are soon upto and past a commercially bought viv. the only way you can make any money is to make custom made vivs. Ive seen the quality of Vivbuilder and what they charge,and its shocking.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

yeh i agree, unless you do soemthing diffeent, that cant be mass produced easier by machine its not going to be too viable.

i do see an opening with vivs made from higher qaulity woods though, liek all the oens we recently built.. we would have been able to pay twice what they cost too make.. and still be less than half the shop price plus getting better qaulity and less restriction is as much as standard 2 foot depth [understandable but a bit narrow] and ventilation can be a lot better than the circualr vents that come with the pre made shop bought and flatpack vivs.

also i think for decor/shelves, built in drainage etc into vivs..i think theres a market.

i just meant if you started a new business.... and it did lose... puttin it through would be unecesary till you se ehwo it goes and i dont see registering for VAT at an early stage atall necesary either, remember im talking about a new viv building idea from the author, nothing else really.
Just that its not alwasy best to do things one way even if it is the way yourd go about it generally with an established business.


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## charlie (May 19, 2007)

I think you are right regarding better quality vivs, with drainage etc, even to the point of selling decorated vivs, with decent backgrounds etc. im gonna make one for some Rankins, which I hope to get after I get married, and want it to be as natural looking as possible.

As regards VAT... I aint gonna let myself get anywhere near the threshold for registering, cuz once you register, its very difficult to de-register.

Id rather take a month off and not earn anything than get involved with that. i know loads of people in the building trade who take 6 weeks off, so as to avoid it...


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

yes, or take on various different partners, one for each part of the business, as seperate businesses as you can have loads of businesses and as long as no individual biz takes what..58k or soemthing then no need to register.
BUT the proper way of doing things, as qouted earlier and what i was arguin against the need to do..would be to register for vat whether your near the threshold or not.


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## charlie (May 19, 2007)

DeanThorpe said:


> yes, or take on various different partners, one for each part of the business, as seperate businesses as you can have loads of businesses and as long as no individual biz takes what..58k or soemthing then no need to register.
> BUT the proper way of doing things, as qouted earlier and what i was arguin against the need to do..would be to register for vat whether your near the threshold or not.


 
See I dont agree with that. the Vat man wouldnt want a business who he would most of the time be repaying VAT that that business is claiming back from goods bought.

Also you can lose alot of work in my line of business. Id say 90% of my clients 1st ask if I am Vat registered.. then they go on to say, there is no way they will pay 17.5% extra..


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

*EDIT-this is the words i couldnt find through all the crap posted below lol*
*in response..*
*our customers the end user, not a business but the public so they dont pay an extra 17.5% its just included in the price, and we dont get to claim the 17.5% vat we paid on our buying price back.*

DELETED COS IT WAS LONG WINDED.


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