# 45x45x60 exo terra, what phibs can get by with just a heat mat



## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

as title says id like something that dosnt need uv or heat bulbs just a simple heat mat, any suggestions?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Dart frogs. If the room is warm enough they don't even need a heat mat.

There are also plenty of temperate species tree frogs, such as greys, USA greens and similar, that require no heating or UV.

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

A whole range of treefrogs would live in that happily, assuming the 60 is the height; American green treefrogs, European green treefrogs, Asian golden frogs and so on. It probably wouldn't be warm enough for Whites', red-eyed treefrogs or milks.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

My Asians dropped dead Ron when they accidentally got kept at room temperature. They did far better kept at about 27 degrees Celsius, but I did this with just a heat mat and the normal lighting. Then we moved, and somehow the heat mat/stat didn't get plugged in....

Ade


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

Ron Magpie said:


> A whole range of treefrogs would live in that happily, assuming the 60 is the height; American green treefrogs, European green treefrogs, Asian golden frogs and so on. It probably wouldn't be warm enough for Whites', red-eyed treefrogs or milks.


yep its 60 high limited edition congo exo terra, thanks everyone for the suggestions :2thumb:

should say my room gets pretty cold in winter because we have a log burner that heats the whole house so when the fire goes out at night so does the radiators, think the lowest reading ive seen on my digital thermometer was 55

i will have lighting aswell an exo terra canopy with 2 of these bulbs http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000F5FNXO/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> My Asians dropped dead Ron when they accidentally got kept at room temperature. They did far better kept at about 27 degrees Celsius, but I did this with just a heat mat and the normal lighting. Then we moved, and somehow the heat mat/stat didn't get plugged in....
> 
> Ade


I use a heat mat and the Exo hood with the extra halogen fitting- which helps to warm up the airspace somewhat during the day, although it's off at night, of course. As I've said before, though, my flat very rarely gets really cold, even if the heating is off.


EDIT: Although even that probably counts as a heat bulb, so invalidates the OPs' question, lol! Ok, European and American treefrogs and grays or similar. None of them are day-active, though.


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

not sure i want darts again. i just sold my viv from richie.b with a trio of tinc bakhius, they were the most boring pet ive ever owned, i never saw them. people say pacman frogs are boring but these were worse at least you can see a pacman. :lol:


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## micky0 (Jul 25, 2012)

creg said:


> not sure i want darts again. i just sold my viv from richie.b with a trio of tinc bakhius, they were the most boring pet ive ever owned, i never saw them. people say pacman frogs are boring but these were worse at least you can see a pacman. :lol:


Pac mans are not that boring, I watch mine sit and its fun to feed em. I also watch him wiggle his legs when he sheds. Ive made him call by playing pac man noises off you tube to him, that was funny. Plus they are cute! And best of all he runs all around the viv in the early evening :whistling2:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

creg said:


> not sure i want darts again. i just sold my viv from richie.b with a trio of tinc bakhius, they were the most boring pet ive ever owned, i never saw them. people say pacman frogs are boring but these were worse at least you can see a pacman. :lol:


Then you either A) did things completely wrongly or B) chose the wrong frog. I see 90% of the darts I keep constantly, 8% regularly and 2% every now and then.

My Alanis for example site by the doors to their viv begging, as do my leucs.

Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

creg said:


> not sure i want darts again. i just sold my viv from richie.b with a trio of tinc bakhius, they were the most boring pet ive ever owned, i never saw them. people say pacman frogs are boring but these were worse at least you can see a pacman. :lol:


My tincs are always out and about but if you want active frogs you can't go wrong with Leucs.

Adam


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Why is it that the frogs always get the blame ?


Mike


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

could i grow live plants under those bulbs i posted earlier? my dartfrog viv only had a low wattage uv bulb


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

creg said:


> could i grow live plants under those bulbs i posted earlier? my dartfrog viv only had a low wattage uv bulb


Yes you could.


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

Wolfenrook said:


> Yes you could.


cheers, any good online retailers for plants?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

creg said:


> cheers, any good online retailers for plants?


Dartfrog, Just Airplants, Rainforest Vivariums- google any or all of them.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Those, and some folks rate terraworld on ebay quite highly too.

Ade


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

i may try some leucs. the tinc bakhius was probably a bad choice on my part plus where the viv was it vibrated alot whenever i walked past or even if someone downstairs shut a door.

would leucs use the height at all ive got a nice piece of wood that would be perfect for climbing, would a trio of leucs work in a viv this size?


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

Ron Magpie said:


> Dartfrog, Just Airplants, Rainforest Vivariums- google any or all of them.


cheers ron i tried rainforest vivs first but he dosnt seem to have much in stock. he used to have bags of ready to use substrate with woodlice and springtails in, i was hoping to get some of that, maybe if i pm him on here and ask nicely he`ll do me a bag


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Make your own Creg, seriously. Setting Up Your First Planted Dart Frog Vivarium

Leucs are very bold if you get them from a hobbyist. I have a viv with 7 in (100cm x 47cm x 50cm tall) and yes they use ALL of the hight. My 3 older females came from Dartfrog, whilst the 4 younger frogs, including my male, came from Mike (frogman955).

Ade


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

i dont live too far from dartfrog i might have a day out round there when ive saved up some money. been looking at my exo terra aswell in regards to fruit flie proofing but nothing seemed big enough for d.hydei to fit through


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Depends on the exo. Some aren't too bad and you just need to replace the mesh lid. Others have big gaps by the doors, and you have to modify them with airline/silicone to close the gaps (had to do this on my cauchero viv). One of mine leaked size 3 crickets, let alone fruit flies. lol

Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

creg said:


> i dont live too far from dartfrog i might have a day out round there when ive saved up some money. been looking at my exo terra aswell in regards to fruit flie proofing but nothing seemed big enough for d.hydei to fit through


Trust me fruit flies will escape from an exo. Just cover the front vent with some fine mesh and silicone the cable holes at the back and you should be fine. I converted my top like this as well.


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Those, and some folks rate terraworld on ebay quite highly too.
> 
> Ade


I have had plants from terraworld. All reptile/phib safe and great quality too.

Adam


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Just did one myself Adam. 










Would look better with clear silicone, but you don't see the top anyway where I have it.

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

As said, it really does vary with individual Exos- I've had them with gaps large enough to let craneflies and largish crickets out, but all my current tanks are fairly secure. If you are buying them 'off the shelf' you can make sure that the gaps between the doors and at the sides of the doors aren't too excessive- but you don't have that luxory, ordering offline.


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

ive got some black silicone going spare so i can cover up the cable holes, couldnt see any gaps in the doors, ive got another exo terra with green anoles and i know what you mean because that has gaps everywhere.


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

Wolfenrook said:


> Just did one myself Adam.
> 
> image
> 
> ...


so you just got some glass cut and siliconed it to the mesh? is this for humidity purposes?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

It's UVx sunbed acrylic cut to order, but yeah same principle. Plus some ff mesh from Dartfrog to form a vent. I actually assembled the lid and siliconed it etc off the viv, then siliconed it into place on the viv once it had all cured. I know this sounds odd, but it made it much easier for me. lol I removed the mesh lid completely, grinding off the little lugs that stick up where the clips go to make the top flat. If you just cover the mesh it goes rusty and blocks the light.

Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> It's UVx sunbed acrylic cut to order, but yeah same principle. Plus some ff mesh from Dartfrog to form a vent. I actually assembled the lid and siliconed it etc off the viv, then siliconed it into place on the viv once it had all cured. I know this sounds odd, but it made it much easier for me. lol I removed the mesh lid completely, grinding off the little lugs that stick up where the clips go to make the top flat. If you just cover the mesh it goes rusty and blocks the light.
> 
> Ade


Glass will also work but tends to make the lid very heavy and the light transmission is better with the acrylic. Ade I used the UV acrylic from Dartfrog but had to then get it cut and drilled. The supplier you use cuts it but do they drill it as well. What are the costs like?

I thought about grinding down the lugs but thought I would end up damaging the viv. I may just silicone the edges of the whole lid as I think the flies will still find a way out. I was tempted to have a smaller strip of mesh but was worried it wouldn't provide enough ventilation. Having seen yours I wish I had gone smaller. 

I am a little OCD and like things just perfect even when you can't see them. :lol2:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

The problem I have with the idea of siliconing the lids down is that they are very useful to remove when you are doing major work to the inside- or even putting in large bits of wood or plants.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

The size of the doors on an exo and you are worried about access from the top? lol Besides, I put the wood in before I put the lid on..... lol

Adam, they don't drill though, just cut. I drilled it myself though, wasn't at all difficult to do and if you don't try to do it too quickly doesn't melt the perspex.  Costs were probably a lot lower than you paid for your acrylic.  I ended up cutting a bit more off as well, as turned out my measurements were out by about an inch. lol I just used my jigsaw with a fine toothed blade.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> *The size of the doors on an exo and you are worried about access from the top? lol Besides, I put the wood in before I put the lid on..... lol*
> 
> Adam, they don't drill though, just cut. I drilled it myself though, wasn't at all difficult to do and if you don't try to do it too quickly doesn't melt the perspex.  Costs were probably a lot lower than you paid for your acrylic.  I ended up cutting a bit more off as well, as turned out my measurements were out by about an inch. lol I just used my jigsaw with a fine toothed blade.


Remember, I work on the basis that each tank may be reused for something else, one day- besides, wood rots, plants die etc etc. I just prefer not to limmit access.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Wood rots, plants die, silicone peels off plastic easily...  I removed the lids I had siliconed onto my old leuc viv when I gave it to Mike, came off in seconds and the silicone was easily removed, but strong enough that frogs can't push it off. 

I did however take a different approach with my leuc viv. I used the frame from the existing lid there and replaced the mesh with polycarbonate. That was a betta lifespace viv though, they're not plagued with the stupid gaps you get with exo lids that are really not a good idea for oophaga pumilio or thumbnail dart frogs.










Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Wood rots, plants die, silicone peels off plastic easily...  I removed the lids I had siliconed onto my old leuc viv when I gave it to Mike, came off in seconds and the silicone was easily removed, but strong enough that frogs can't push it off.
> 
> I did however take a different approach with my leuc viv. I used the frame from the existing lid there and replaced the mesh with polycarbonate. That was a betta lifespace viv though, they're not plagued with the stupid gaps you get with exo lids that are really not a good idea for oophaga pumilio or thumbnail dart frogs.
> 
> ...


I agree. Like Ade said if you silicone around the gaps between the frame and the viv it should be easy enough to remove later on down the line.


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

Wolfenrook said:


> Those, and some folks rate terraworld on ebay quite highly too.
> 
> Ade


I'm one of them :2thumb:.


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## terryTHEfrog (Oct 21, 2012)

Wolfenrook said:


> Depends on the exo. Some aren't too bad and you just need to replace the mesh lid. Others have big gaps by the doors, and you have to modify them with airline/silicone to close the gaps (had to do this on my cauchero viv). One of mine leaked size 3 crickets, let alone fruit flies. lol
> 
> Ade


Sorry if am guessing that you cut the airline to length and slice down it then push it over the edge, sounds good idea.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

terryTHEfrog said:


> Sorry if am guessing that you cut the airline to length and slice down it then push it over the edge, sounds good idea.


Exactly so bud. I used black silicone airline on the exo for my caucheros to match the black trim. :2thumb:


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Ade, where did you get the black airline from, I have been after some?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

fatlad69 said:


> Ade, where did you get the black airline from, I have been after some?


I got it from a store on ebay bud: K31 1m 1 METER 4mm BLACK AIRLINE AIR LINE AQUARIUM VIVARIUM FISH TANK POND PUMP | eBay.

Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> I got it from a store on ebay bud: K31 1m 1 METER 4mm BLACK AIRLINE AIR LINE AQUARIUM VIVARIUM FISH TANK POND PUMP | eBay.
> 
> Ade


Nice one, cheers Ade


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

whats your guys opinions on uv? 

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/10888245-post31.html

he seems to know his stuff and says plants and frogs cannot thrive without a source of uv and t5 lighting is not adequate for plants to be truly healthy.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

To be completely blunt, he is talking out of his backside. Plants don't even actually utilise UV, many go to great lengths to protect themselves from it, hence we have beautiful red plants... UV plays NO part in the health of plants, terrestrial or aquatic.

What he is getting confused on is the roll of red and blue light wavelengths. In water red light is the first to go, as such aquatic plants adapt to make more use of blue wavelengths. Red light however is more useful to plants, and terrestrial plants don't have a problem getting these wavelengths as aquatic plants do, and so haven't adapted to blue wavelengths.

The absolutel BEST type of lighting to use for terrestrial plants are high output sources in the range of 5,000k to 7,000k, these having a good balance of red and blue wavelengths, whilst not leaving you with a viv that looks pink or purple, and bringing out the colours of your amphibians.

To this end, my 2 favourite types of light for planted vivaria are the Arcadia Freshwater Pro HOT5 or the ZooMed UltraSun HOT5. These give off a nice light that doesn't make your viv look yellow as some cheaper makes do, and give fantastic plant growth and health when used with good reflectors (eg. D-D razer reflectors with there gull wing design).

That guy clearly knows sweet..... about plants.

Allow me to put my money where my mouth is, neither of these vivs has UV lighting:-



















Do the plants in those vivs look at all unhealthy to you? Heck, even horticulturists don't use UV lighting, in fact they usually use a combination of red and blue wavelenghts that would look seriously ugly in a viv. If you look on the left side of this picture it's more like the lighting horticulturists use:-










Looks awful to our eyes, but provides what plants need, red and blue wavelengths of light.

I have a reputation for been blunt, so to continue this, that guy is talking out of his rear end. lol

Ade


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

:notworthy: cheers ade i was hoping you'd clear that up. i felt inclined to believe him at first because he sounded so sure of himself i thought it must be true :lol2:

after doing a bit of google research of my own i also came to the conclusion he was talking from his anus, he made it sound convincing though. when i said others had used t5 alone and their setups thrived i was thinking of yours and others. this is also a good example of aquatic and non aquatic growing under the same lighting..


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I wouldn't have been _quite_ so blunt:lol2:, but yes, when it comes to plants, UV is pretty much irrelevant. With frogs, the jury is still out, although Saedcantas (check out her sticky at the top of the section) and ArcadiaJohn both make good cases for- but lots of people have kept and bred 'phibs without.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I have some frogs that have UV light, some without, and to be perfectly honest it doesn't seem to make any difference whatsoever. But then we're talking White's and jungle species here. It may well be that frogs like waxy monky frogs would do much better with a good level of UV as this is what they have adapted to.

I think that's the problem here, folks say frogs and think they must all have the same needs. We're used to reptiles having different needs, yet for some reason we try to lump amphibians all together.

John often says one thing that I would NEVER disagree with. If you can find out what they get in the wild, and try to copy it, you're on the right track (paraphrasing. lol). We need to move away from trying to think that there's 1 size fits all with phibs, and start realising that they all come from different environments and have adapted to have different needs. Keep a dart in a viv suitable for a waxy monky and you'll kill it, odds are the reverse is also true.

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> I have some frogs that have UV light, some without, and to be perfectly honest it doesn't seem to make any difference whatsoever. But then we're talking White's and jungle species here. It may well be that frogs like waxy monky frogs would do much better with a good level of UV as this is what they have adapted to.
> 
> I think that's the problem here, folks say frogs and think they must all have the same needs. We're used to reptiles having different needs, yet for some reason we try to lump amphibians all together.
> 
> ...


Utterly good points, all. I use Arcadia tubes (T8 ) in only a couple of tanks at the mo, and I haven't as yet noticed much difference, but again, most of my frogs are nocturnal and the lights are primarily there for plant growth.


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## Plantyblk (Nov 19, 2012)

I told you creg that they need uv and you said you have experience with them lol and they don't


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

Plantyblk said:


> I told you creg that they need uv and you said you have experience with them lol and they don't


:lol2:


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

going to dartfrog saturday :mf_dribble: should have enough money to get all the stuff i need to set up. have no clue what plants to get so i think im going to buy a few collections and ask them for easy to keep plants. then a few weeks later ill start looking for frogs.

heres a pic of how the viv currently looks, my bulbs havent come yet so i put my marine luminaire on top. might actually get a cheap t5 luminaire from allpondsolutions in a few months if these bulbs ive ordered dont do the job.


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

who do i msg to change thread title? id like to turn this into a journal


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Better to start a new thread and link this at the start.


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

fatlad69 said:


> Better to start a new thread and link this at the start.


ok thanks, will do that later


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