# pine bark toxic?



## mightyrhi_16 (Feb 24, 2007)

i just bought a bag of pine bark ('eco-bark') for my water dragon, to go over the aquatic soil/sphagnum moss mix we have as substrate.

the only thing is, apparently pine bark is as toxic as cedar and we shouldn't use it. is this true? there's a lot about cedar but not much about pine.


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

pine is a type of cedar and all cedar is toxic.
was this packaged by a reptile brand for use with reptiles?


----------



## Tank_grrl (Aug 27, 2007)

Mr Dean thorpe can you take a look in that other thread beardie heating or something it was called that we were in this morning and you told me not to ask the pet shop?! Would value your opinion. ta.


----------



## mightyrhi_16 (Feb 24, 2007)

yes, it's lucky reptile 'eco-bark'.

here's a link;

Livefood UK Ltd.


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

wow.. that is shocking.
I cannot imagine each bit of pine bark has had the toxins sealed in so i would have thought it was not one to use atall.
Im suprised they sell it... and even more suprised [well..kind of not suprised really] lucky reptile package and distribute it.

*This attractive pine bark substrate has characteristics which makes it excellent for use in terrariums. 
It absorbs humidity and binds waste inside the terrarium. In addition it covers bad odors. 
The mulitstep manufacturing process ensures uniform, fine grains and minimizes dust and "dirt" inside the substrate. 
The pine park has a slightly red coloring, rots only slowly and will not get mouldy in properly ventilated cages. Consequently it will keep its attractive appearance for a long time. *


The fact that it says it covers bad odurs sugests it hasnt been treated for the toxic fumes pine gives off either.
If I were you id email the site, they are alright that lot, and ask if he knows why this pine is ok when pine and other cedar wood is considered to be toxic to reptiles and see what he says, he may know soemthing about the product i dont.
But as it is.. I am under the belief that pine should not be used in a vivarium or even anywhere near a reptile.

as a side note
Livefood UK Ltd.
Livefood UK Ltd.
Livefood UK Ltd.
these are all awesome [and virtually the same damn thing]


----------



## LouiseK (Mar 17, 2007)

I was told, i think by a viv manufacturer or something, that the toxicity of pine was dependant on how old it was.

So if it was freshly cut that there would still be a lot of the toxic oils in it but if aged or decomposed pine was used that the oils would have leaked from the wood leaving a safe product.

If true, it could explain the use of pine by supposed reptile experts if they use old stuff...


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

thats possibly correct, if it doesnt smell, its more liekyl to be safe for sure.

a few extracts

The substrate that I use is Carefresh, which is not too attractive, but safe. I used to use crushed walnut shells, but heard too many reports of snakes ingesting it and becoming impacted, with fatal results. I have also heard reports of this happening with sand, so I don't advise that either. While sand boas is their common name, most sand boas don't live in sandy areas. Shredded aspen is safe, and like Carefresh it holds the burrows that the sand boas make. Many people use pine shavings, although others speculate that they may be toxic because of the volatile chemicals such as turpenes in the wood. I don?t use pine, and if you choose to use it make sure it doesn't have a strong smell. Never use cedar shavings, which are definitely toxic to reptiles.
FROM Kenyan (East African) Sand Boas (Eryx colubrinus)

Never use cedar shavings, which are toxic to reptiles, or pine shavings, which may be. Both Lizard Litters and shredded aspen are generally available at most stores which cater to herp needs. Some people use Carefresh bedding. This is safe and the snakes seem to like it, but many people find it unattractive. 
FROM Kenyan Sand Boas

Cedar Shavings are toxic to many reptiles and animals. People like it because it covers oders so well. It is those fumes from the oils in cedar that cause irritation in the nasal linings of rodents and reptiles. By the way, if it smells bad clean it! Don’t mask the stink. I only use pine shavings on “Tribble” my chinchilla and “Mr. Whiskers” my hedgehog, never on reptiles. Although I do not have experience with it, the only wood chips I have heard are OK for reptiles are Aspen shavings and Cypress mulch. It does allow snakes to burrow if that is a natural behavior for your snake of choice but even these have their downside in that the tiny shavings can get in between belly scales and cause irritation. Of course, never feed your snake in shavings.
FROM Reptile Care Tips


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Mold On Pine Bark Chip Substrate ... - www.ReptileForums.com
A couple of ppl arguin about it to no resolve lol

It may be ok, although I would really want it to state non toxic on the bag before i would even consider it i think.
[as many toehr substrates do state non toxic..although being packaged for reps it should go without saying.


----------



## LouiseK (Mar 17, 2007)

This might sound silly, but if in doubt, give it a taste. If it stings your mouth or tastes like something that would make you sick, don't use it 

If its fairly neutral in your mouth then i wouldn't worry.

Try not to choke though... 

Before i give my beardie petals and stuff i always give it a nibble...


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

I would never personally use pine just to be on the safe side, no matter how old.


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

LouiseK said:


> This might sound silly, but if in doubt, give it a taste. If it stings your mouth or tastes like something that would make you sick, don't use it
> 
> If its fairly neutral in your mouth then i wouldn't worry.
> 
> ...


yeh, so do i.. but we arent allergic to pine and reps are so i dont know.


----------



## LouiseK (Mar 17, 2007)

It'll still taste like crap though  If its anything like conifer... it burns...

So is it an actual allergy? i just thought it was like us rubbing petrol all over ourselves... its gonna get sore.


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

actually im not sure, why something is toxic toone type of animal and not another I assume is down to a natural allergy in the gentic make up but i realy dont know.


----------



## LouiseK (Mar 17, 2007)

Hmm... well, i'm going to say that conifer = pine even if it is kinda inaccurate and from my tree climbing days i would have thought that oils in conifer would have a negative effect on humans if we were in constant contact with it and breathing in the fumes like a rep would in a viv. Ever burnt the stuff? Its nasty...

I reckon that we use so much pine in furniture because it is abundant and cheap and it would have been sealed and specially treated for human use. 

I don't think reptiles are any more suseptible than anything else, it just that they are confined in a warm and possibly humid environment that makes it dangerous.


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

that is very possible yes.
Thats the thing with this thing...and other things i have tried to find out... theres only partial info out there..even on the big bad internet.. and it amazes me.


----------



## Spen (Nov 8, 2007)

I've just bought "orchid bark" and only just realised it's pine. It's labeled "Reptile (and orchid) Litter" with "Premium Bark Products" which may or not be the company name (google not much help here). I can't believe this can/would be sold if toxic to the very animals it's marketed for (nobody mention cigarettes). It's also got written on there "Quality British Pine Bark" and "_Safe and Hygenic_, Superb when used wet or dry, _Pleasant pine fragrance, _Biodegradable for easy disposal" and "suitable for: Green Iguanas, Gold Skinks, Day & Tokay geckos, Anoles, Water Dragons, Tree Boas, Box Turtles, Hermit crabs, Tarantulas and many more". 
She's (my royal, my first snake, aquired 3 weeks ago) on the same sort of stuff at the moment, when I bought her the guy at the pet shop tipped in some for me so I didn't have to buy a bag at the time. Before I change her viv, I want to be sure I'm not poisoning her! 
Do we have evidence to suggest this stuff really is toxic for them? or is it an assumption made on the relation to cedar?


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Pine does have phenols and terpenes, both implicated in respiratory problems in rodents and reptiles.


----------



## scotty123 (Sep 16, 2007)

ive always beem tyold it is harmful to reps, although im not sure but even with the small bit of doubt in my/everyone elses mind i would never risk the health of my reptile, its not worth it.

buy some eco earth stuff, ive been using that in mine and its fantastic! alot of people recommend it....

on the other hand is it not illegal to sell a product that is unsuitable for the purpose its intended?.....


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

dont quote me but last I heard I think that there arent any laws governing what can and cannot be sold for use with pets/animals.
Or at the very least, reptiles.


----------



## scotty123 (Sep 16, 2007)

thats is truely shocking!

s they could sell cyanide and call it rep food andd no1 could do anything!? obvioulsy the exteme but that means they could get away with anything to make abit of money!


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

im not sure if cyanide would be controlled under other laws but i think if soemthing isnt an actual poison as a general rule.. but im not certain on how bad the situation could or couldnt be.

on that same note i feel a strong urge to mentiion that if anyone has recently switched from the exo terra reptiglo 8's to the 10's to please check out the uvguide website for any NEW info that may be there.....

on that same level I cant insist enough that anyone with high uv requirement desert lizards do thie rbest to use mvb's or the zoo med reptisun bulbs..i know they are twice the price....


----------



## scotty123 (Sep 16, 2007)

sorry that was a bad example, but you get what im saying... that sucks! its a shame they dont have anyone governing this sort of thing!


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

agreed.
its up to us and the shops/online retailers to not use unsuitable products and spread the word when possible.


----------



## scotty123 (Sep 16, 2007)

yeh but theres always gonna be a few that slip the net.... i know when i do something iu like to do it properly, i did months of research before i got my CWD's and even now i still learning stuff and by no means an expert. my problem is that not enough people are like this they just go into a shop and go,

'ooo that looks nice, how much, etc and in alot of cases will take whatever the shop says as the be all and end all when alot of the time the information they give out is far from right...

ive notied it in a couple of rep shops and never been back since.

one shop near me sold a leo to a girl and told her to feed it lettuce (she asked for a lizard that didnt eat bugs as she was scared of them!)


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

well there ya go... SHOPS who do that wont even know let alone care what equipment and/or companies are to be avoided.
that is just one problem.

I can tell you all right now on my own principles, money be damned i wont be stocking anything but the best/most suitable products if and when we ever get a rep shop going.


----------



## Spen (Nov 8, 2007)

The thing is though, those companies wouldn't market something that is harmful to reptiles FOR reptiles, they wouldn't risk the legal implications. 
Also, my local rep shop does know what he's doing, he's has a huge personal collection and he's a breeder too. I'm sure he wouldn't sell it to me if he was in doubt.
I'm not convinced either way.


----------

