# Wood chips for bearded dragon



## XJedX

hi im replaceing my sand in my dragons tank and i was wondering if theese wood chips are ok my dragon is 6 months 12.5 inches and 160g ish

KLM Beech Chip Fine 20 Litre

thanks


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## SteveCourty

XJedX said:


> hi im replaceing my sand in my dragons tank and i was wondering if theese wood chips are ok my dragon is 6 months 12.5 inches and 160g ish
> 
> KLM Beech Chip Fine 20 Litre
> 
> thanks


Id say no I dont like wood chips. Have you thought about using wheat or oat bran?


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## Redhill Reptiles

Ive been using wood chips recently and I have to say Im not a fan! My beardies are coming off the stuff when I get my tiles.


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## dickvansheepcake

In my opinion wood chips are more dangerous, impaction wise, than sand is. Would be a nightmare if the beardie swallows any, especially as yours is a young one. Until mine were adult size I kept them on newspaper. Although something like lino tile things would look better!
Anyway that's my ramble over!


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## _Birdeater_WM_

dickvansheepcake said:


> In my opinion wood chips are more dangerous, impaction wise, than sand is. Would be a nightmare if the beardie swallows any, especially as yours is a young one. Until mine were adult size I kept them on newspaper. Although something like lino tile things would look better!
> Anyway that's my ramble over!


*I have a 4 month old beardie and he is on woodchips , and he has been fine :no1:*


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## woodrott

dickvansheepcake said:


> In my opinion wood chips are more dangerous, impaction wise, than sand is. Would be a nightmare if the beardie swallows any, especially as yours is a young one. Until mine were adult size I kept them on newspaper. Although something like lino tile things would look better!
> Anyway that's my ramble over!


i wouldn't say its a ramble
very good advice
wood chips are the poorest substrate you can get in my opinion


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## jools

_Birdeater_WM_ said:


> *I have a 4 month old beardie and he is on woodchips , and he has been fine :no1:*


Most will be fine and you have been lucky - but woodchips are also a risk IMO. As well as the impaction risk they are also expensive to replace, unhygeinic and an unnatural surface for beardies


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## Kingkillclone

*HI*

my beardie is 6 months old and he has been on woodchip from the beginning and still his he doesnt eat it if some gets in his mouth by accident he always spits it out, woodchip is fine! but reptile carpet is also good and looks nice!!


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## SteveCourty

jools said:


> Most will be fine and you have been lucky - but woodchips are also a risk IMO. As well as the impaction risk they are also expensive to replace, unhygeinic and an unnatural surface for beardies


Completely agree. Try wheatbran or oatbran ive just switched to it its dirt cheap and looks really good. No impaction risk either as far as I no


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## woodrott

Kingkillclone said:


> my beardie is 6 months old and he has been on woodchip from the beginning and still his he doesnt eat it if some gets in his mouth by accident he always spits it out, woodchip is fine! but reptile carpet is also good and looks nice!!


 
lots of people keep there beardies on wood chips and its all good until an impaction takes them to the vets or one morning they find a dead beardie

its not worth taking a chance

also the hygiene thing lets not go there

at the end of the day its up to you and your husbandry

a fact is most dragons dye through poor husbandry or ignorance
read about substrate for your dragon before you put it in the viv
then its up to you


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## bluest170

i've got mine on woodchips, the largest type. Never had any problems with impaction, they always spit it out if they do pick up a bit but will be switching mine to oatbran shortly. Looks much better and cost effective. 

Entirely upto you though


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## SteveCourty

bluest170 said:


> i've got mine on woodchips, the largest type. Never had any problems with impaction, they always spit it out if they do pick up a bit but will be switching mine to oatbran shortly. Looks much better and cost effective.
> 
> Entirely upto you though


Good choice


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## woodrott

bluest170 said:


> i've got mine on woodchips, the largest type. Never had any problems with impaction, they always spit it out if they do pick up a bit but will be switching mine to oatbran shortly. Looks much better and cost effective.
> 
> Entirely upto you though


oat bran and wheat bran is not a new thing for substrate
my only reservation is the problems with mites 

it seems to be a perfect medium for the little buggers and they breed like hell


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## _Birdeater_WM_

woodrott said:


> oat bran and wheat bran is not a new thing for substrate
> my only reservation is the problems with mites
> 
> it seems to be a perfect medium for the little buggers and they breed like hell


*Well my boy seems fine , sand best ?? or Aspen ??
I ahve 6 vivs and 4 inc snakes :lol2: I only have 1 lizard , and love him : victory:
*


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## woodrott

_Birdeater_WM_ said:


> *Well my boy seems fine , sand best ?? or Aspen ??*
> *I ahve 6 vivs and 4 inc snakes :lol2: I only have 1 lizard , and love him : victory:*


 
well my self i use towl


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## emmaw

A question on the bran thing... With feeding bran to horses you have to be aware that due to it having the wrong calcium to phosphorus (sp?) ratio - too much phos, it can effect calcium absorption. I know that horses are nothing like beardies, but could it be a problem if they ate some?? As calcium is so important for them? Just a thought... :hmm:


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## Welsh dragon

Nutrition Content
According to the food chart on here, Bran is written in red meaning it shouldn't be given to beardies as a substrate.


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## emmaw

Welsh dragon said:


> Nutrition Content
> According to the food chart on here, Bran is written in red meaning it shouldn't be given to beardies as a substrate.


That would make sense


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## Ninjaaa23

mine is an accurate feeder hence why i used sand i the past and now wheat bran


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## Chrisuk33

dickvansheepcake said:


> In my opinion wood chips are more dangerous, impaction wise, than sand is. Would be a nightmare if the beardie swallows any, especially as yours is a young one. Until mine were adult size I kept them on newspaper. Although something like lino tile things would look better!
> Anyway that's my ramble over!


 woodchips worse then sand? id say that depends on the grain of wood chips your using, if its small enough and fine enough then its a problem as much as any other loose substrate.
if you can get that nice chunky wood chips id think they might take a lick at it but i dout they will try and manage to swallow.
my beardly wont even try cucumber if i cut them in cubes, they have to be shredded.


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## dickvansheepcake

Chrisuk33 said:


> woodchips worse then sand? id say that depends on the grain of wood chips your using, if its small enough and fine enough then its a problem as much as any other loose substrate.
> if you can get that nice chunky wood chips id think they might take a lick at it but i dout they will try and manage to swallow.
> my beardly wont even try cucumber if i cut them in cubes, they have to be shredded.



Wow, you've dragged up an old thread! Over a year old. 

Woodchip is worse than sand. Even the bigger bits could be swallowed by an adult beardie, and if they are there's no chance of it passing through. With sand though, it'll pass through fairly easily unless continuously eaten in large amounts. In adults anyway, obviously smaller beardies will become impacted more easily. So yes, in my opinion woodchip is worse than sand.


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## Chrisuk33

dickvansheepcake said:


> Wow, you've dragged up an old thread! Over a year old.
> 
> Woodchip is worse than sand. Even the bigger bits could be swallowed by an adult beardie, and if they are there's no chance of it passing through. With sand though, it'll pass through fairly easily unless continuously eaten in large amounts. In adults anyway, obviously smaller beardies will become impacted more easily. So yes, in my opinion woodchip is worse than sand.


i read alot, trying to get new ideas and new information, i googled about substrates and this thread came up.

about the beardie swallwing the wood chips.
ive never seen a beardie , even adult swallow a wood chip thats half inch in diamiter, i can speak for all beardies but my beardie chews his food alot then swallows, if it cant chew it down cos its as hard as wood it will kinda spit it out :lol2:

i still beleive if it was that fine grain stuff then yeah it might get by it enough for it to think its part of the food


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## GeeUK

To minimise the risks and if I really wanted to use wood chips, I'd just use some big enough that are impossible to actually swallow.


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## Chrisuk33

GeeUK said:


> To minimise the risks and if I really wanted to use wood chips, I'd just use some big enough that are impossible to actually swallow.


yeah thats right if its tiny enough that it can swallow it is a possiblity that it will, if its a nice chunky block like half inch, a beardie (well my beardie does) will try to chew it first, if it cant it will reject it. and it dont make the same mistake twice lol


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## jools

I'm sorry but I just can't for the life of me understand why anyone would want to use wood chips as a substrate for a beardie. They are not a natural surface for this animal to be on. They DO pose an impaction risk. They are unhygienic - a well hydrated beardie poops fluid as well as solids which is absorbed into the chips. They need replacing (expense / bother) frequently to prevent smells / bacterial build up. 

Shops use them to hide poops ( less frequent cleaning means lower staff costs) and to try to maximise repeat sales.


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## Chrisuk33

jools said:


> I'm sorry but I just can't for the life of me understand why anyone would want to use wood chips as a substrate for a beardie. They are not a natural surface for this animal to be on. They DO pose an impaction risk. They are unhygienic - a well hydrated beardie poops fluid as well as solids which is absorbed into the chips. They need replacing (expense / bother) frequently to prevent smells / bacterial build up.
> 
> Shops use them to hide poops ( less frequent cleaning means lower staff costs) and to try to maximise repeat sales.


 you know the same could be said for most substrates your pet beardie is on , like reptile carpet, except the impaction thing.

lets not mix up wood chips with bark chips like that orchid bark cos that does take moisture in and smell

sounds like 99% of posible substrates have some problem or risk and if we listen to everyone scaring us away , beardies would just on the wooden base the vivarium came with.
beardies in this country dont know whats a native beardies subsrate.

lino,newspaper,kitchen towel, slate, ceramic tile non of these are natural substrate to a native beardie eather


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## Industrial

I know people who've used wood chip as a lizard substrate for decades and never had one problem......stop worrying!
This constant worry over impaction and god knows what else is ridiculous.
Strange how it's only beardie keepers who seem to fret over this, many other lizard species are kept on loose substrates and no one bats an eyelid. I'd rather keep mine on this than ceramic tiles, lizards fall off log and breaks a leg........


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## jools

Chrisuk33 said:


> beardies in this country dont know whats a native beardies subsrate.
> 
> lino,newspaper,kitchen towel, slate, ceramic tile non of these are natural substrate to a native beardie eather


I agree. But you have to admit that bark chips are certainly not natural.

Keeping an animal in a 4x2x2 box is also not natural. So as responsible keepers we have to provide an environment that is as close as we can to what is natural for them and as safe as we can. 

In their natural environment they would be on hard packed clay with a surface dust. Slate tiles with play sand in the cracks would immitate this very well.

In their natural environment there would be little build up of bacteria / parasites / viruses / fungi as their teritory would be much bigger and rain / scavengers would negate these.

In their natural environment many beardies do die from disease and predators.

It is up to us, their guardians, to provide the safest, most natural environment that we can.


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## ..:: F1D0 ::..

Why is it on these forums when good advice is given people disregard it or come back with arguments to try and back up their points?!?

If people want to use wood chips, let them - its their dragons life they are putting in danger and all the people advising against it will not change it.

Wood chips are pants!! Easily digestiable, very unhygenic and expensive for what they are. I would say that these things are worse then Calcium Carbonate!! 

Each substrate does have it's risks, but as jools said, as we are their guardians, we are going to want to make sure they are safe. I used woodchips for Helio for all of 30 minutes until i seen her get 2 in her mouth when hunting. As soon as i saw this, they were taken out and replaced with tiles and she is now on silica free, childs playsand.


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## woodrott

Ive been down this route before ,,, just disregarding the safety points
the hygiene factor alone should be enough to not use the stuff

all i can think of is the people using wood chips ,not just for bearded dragons have absolutely no idea about parasites , bacteria or mold and how important this part of husbandry is

think of it this way 

if your baby poo,d its nappy would you just scrape it out and put your baby back in it??????
i don't think so,,,so why should your reptile put up with it

its poor hygiene,poor husbandry,its your duty to keep your reptile as clean as you can, substituting hygiene for aesthetics is a very poor move

its only my opinion as well as fact,,,,don't people know that bacteria and parasites can live out side a reptile in some cases for over 18 months,,fact

mark


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## Industrial

..:: F1D0 ::.. said:


> Why is it on these forums when good advice is given people disregard it or come back with arguments to try and back up their points?!?
> 
> If people want to use wood chips, let them - its their dragons life they are putting in danger and all the people advising against it will not change it.
> 
> Wood chips are pants!! Easily digestiable, very unhygenic and expensive for what they are. I would say that these things are worse then Calcium Carbonate!!
> 
> Each substrate does have it's risks, but as jools said, as we are their guardians, we are going to want to make sure they are safe. I used woodchips for Helio for all of 30 minutes until i seen her get 2 in her mouth when hunting. As soon as i saw this, they were taken out and replaced with tiles and
> she is now on silica free, childs playsand.


There's far more dragons die from the so called good advice on this forum than keeping them on wood chip, like you say if people want to keep em on it let em, they would probably not agree with some of the ways you keep yours but I don't see them having a go at you, there isn't one way to keep a lizard you know, each to their own, if it works why change it.


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## woodrott

Industrial said:


> There's far more dragons die from the so called good advice on this forum than keeping them on wood chip, like you say if people want to keep em on it let em, they would probably not agree with some of the ways you keep yours but I don't see them having a go at you, there isn't one way to keep a lizard you know, each to their own, if it works why change it.


 
maybe?????

but also i can guarantee no dragon has ever died from advice Ive given
the best statement i can make is,,,,,,,, disregard bacteria and parasites
at your peril,,,,, a closed mind is dangerous and pathetic. the facts are out there find them and read them please

mark

there's no insult intended in any of my statements


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## Industrial

woodrott said:


> maybe?????
> 
> but also i can guarantee no dragon has ever died from advice Ive given
> the best statement i can make is,,,,,,,, disregard bacteria and parasites
> at your peril,,,,, a closed mind is dangerous and pathetic. the facts are out there find them and read them please
> 
> mark
> 
> there's no insult intended in any of my statements


Not saying there is mate!

There are far more reports of impaction from sand ingestion than wood chip yet people who condemn wood chip for this reason then keep theirs on sand, this makes no sense , how can you have a go at someone for keeping them that way then equally _put yours at risk too_
Is there a risk? Of course there is but the same can be said about any loose substrate. We can put our dragons at risk from all sorts of perils everyday, letting them roam about the lounge, in the garden, and countless other ways, yet everyone thinks giving them the freedom of a room in the house for a few hours a day is OK, I personally don't, but don't have a go at them about it.


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## faceplant

Kiln Dried Sand £3.97 for 25KG at B&Q, about 2"-3" deep so they can bury to cooler sand.

get yourself some monster size pebbles (river stone) too, the beardies will spend more time on them than sand unless their cooling down, also pebbles are easy to clean and the kiln dried sand will absorb any soggy messes which in turn stops smelly vivs also its easy to clean out.

I do suggest a very fine kitchen sieve, as the poop scoopers let too much crap through but this is general advise (hint hint zoomed, prorep, make your sieves tighter)


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## kirky1980

every type of substrate is a risk of some sort really. it was only a couple of weeks ago a guy on here was saying help my leo is eating kitchen roll,the so called safe substrate out there. people just use what they can out there and unless you buy excovator clay for your beardie with some sand on top of it its near impossible so sand and slate is the closest you willget really to natural for a beardie


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## woodrott

Industrial said:


> Not saying there is mate!
> 
> There are far more reports of impaction from sand ingestion than wood chip yet people who condemn wood chip for this reason then keep theirs on sand, this makes no sense , how can you have a go at someone for keeping them that way then equally _put yours at risk too_
> Is there a risk? Of course there is but the same can be said about any loose substrate. We can put our dragons at risk from all sorts of perils everyday, letting them roam about the lounge, in the garden, and countless other ways, yet everyone thinks giving them the freedom of a room in the house for a few hours a day is OK, I personally don't, but don't have a go at them about it.


 
i think every one is missing my point??????
keep your dragons/reptiles on what you like, Ive posted my feeling on loose substrate hundreds of times,,,its not for me,,,,

the main point in my last few posts is ,,,,hygiene,,,,

you will have an extremely hard time if not impossible time controlling bacteria and parasites with sand or bark chips

the best one is use a fine sieve,,,,what a statement,,,,
this clearly shows a zero knowledge of hygiene husbandry to the point of being ludicrous

do people understand the size of worm eggs or bacteria ,,,i would say no,,,

if people made more of an effort to understand hygiene then there would be a lot fewer posts with the title

my reptile is not eating
help needed with my reptile
please help
my reptile looks ill

and so on

come on guys and gals this is basic stuff for gods sake

mark

or put another way try prevention not cure its better for your wallet and much better for your reptile


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## woodrott

ok try this

can any one give me a valid health reason for using loose substrate????

can any one give me any reason for using loose substrate beyond there own vanity????? if so please explain your reasons and how its more important than keeping your reptile in a reduced bacteria/parasite environment

mark


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## Industrial

woodrott said:


> i think every one is missing my point??????
> keep your dragons/reptiles on what you like, Ive posted my feeling on loose substrate hundreds of times,,,its not for me,,,,
> 
> the main point in my last few posts is ,,,,hygiene,,,,
> 
> you will have an extremely hard time if not impossible time controlling bacteria and parasites with sand or bark chips
> 
> the best one is use a fine sieve,,,,what a statement,,,,
> this clearly shows a zero knowledge of hygiene husbandry to the point of being ludicrous
> 
> do people understand the size of worm eggs or bacteria ,,,i would say no,,,
> 
> if people made more of an effort to understand hygiene then there would be a lot fewer posts with the title
> 
> my reptile is not eating
> help needed with my reptile
> please help
> my reptile looks ill
> 
> and so on
> 
> come on guys and gals this is basic stuff for gods sake
> 
> mark
> 
> or put another way try prevention not cure its better for your wallet and much better for your reptile


Right, so now it's switched from impaction to hygiene. So you say regardless of species all reptiles and amphibians should be kept on non loose substrates? So if I were to keep say a skink which likes/needs to burrow then I'd have to keep it on what! Lino? You do not make sense at all and your opinions are OTT and quite frankly a little paranoid, we are talking reptiles here not Michael Jackson or Howard Hughes, they don't need to be kept in a bubble and protected from every living bacteria in the world. Breeders and experts with far greater knowledge than yourself and I, have and will continue to keep reptiles that way and quite rightly, without fear of them becoming ill from bacteria in loose substrates. These are replaced on a regular basis you know and still spot cleaned. So all reptiles to be kept on Lino or paper whatever their requirements is in their best interests........I think not!


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## Industrial

woodrott said:


> ok try this
> 
> can any one give me a valid health reason for using loose substrate????
> 
> can any one give me any reason for using loose substrate beyond there own vanity????? if so please explain your reasons and how its more important than keeping your reptile in a reduced bacteria/parasite environment
> 
> mark


What on earth has "their own vanity" got to do with it? You are starting to sound ridiculous, if replaced on a regular basis and spot cleaned there is no problem!
What about all the people who keep small mammals like hamsters, rats & rabbits, these are kept on straw, wood 
shavings and the like and that is totally acceptable and totally OK to do so and they are far dirtier than any reptiles and impossible to spot clean, these don't die in their millions because of bacterial infections when kept properly.


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## ..:: F1D0 ::..

Industrial said:


> What on earth has "their own vanity" got to do with it? You are starting to sound ridiculous, if replaced on a regular basis and spot cleaned there is no problem!
> What about all the people who keep small mammals like hamsters, rats & rabbits, these are kept on straw, wood
> shavings and the like and that is totally acceptable and totally OK to do so and they are far dirtier than any reptiles and impossible to spot clean, these don't die in their millions because of bacterial infections when kept properly.


Thats because they have a much stronger immune system than reptiles, heck, tipping a reptile upside down can have severe consequences so if any bacteria gets into them well.....dont bode to good for the rep in question.


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## Industrial

..:: F1D0 ::.. said:


> Thats because they have a much stronger immune system than reptiles, heck, tipping a reptile upside down can have severe consequences so if any bacteria gets into them well.....dont bode to good for the rep in question.


You keep yours on sand, what are you on about?

The mammal thing is mentioned just because the whole hygiene thing sounds ridiculous, I am not comparing reptiles with mammals, although many on here seem to think the two are the same the way they go on.


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## woodrott

Industrial said:


> Right, so now it's switched from impaction to hygiene. So you say regardless of species all reptiles and amphibians should be kept on non loose substrates? So if I were to keep say a skink which likes/needs to burrow then I'd have to keep it on what! Lino? You do not make sense at all and your opinions are OTT and quite frankly a little paranoid, we are talking reptiles here not Michael Jackson or Howard Hughes, they don't need to be kept in a bubble and protected from every living bacteria in the world. Breeders and experts with far greater knowledge than yourself and I, have and will continue to keep reptiles that way and quite rightly, without fear of them becoming ill from bacteria in loose substrates. These are replaced on a regular basis you know and still spot cleaned. So all reptiles to be kept on Lino or paper whatever their requirements is in their best interests........I think not!


read my posts,,,,,, Ive not switched from impaction to hygiene in the posts Ive done over the course of our conversations
when have i ever mentioned amphibians or mammals????? I'm talking about reptiles
and i don't think you can get to paranoid when it comes to parasitic infections 
if every one was as fastidious as me when it comes to cleaning the rep world would be a better place
if my statements are paranoid and get people thinking and looking in to the problem then Ive done my job in some small way

no your right not in a bubble
but all so not in a square meter or so of a higher than needed bacterial environment

as for skinks, borrowing reptile there are ways as in any other reptile
enclosure to reduce the chance of bacterial growth you just need to do some research not just do the thing that's easy smells or looks nice[vanity]


the point I'm trying to put across is don't underestimate bacteria and parasites the more we can do in our reptile enclosures to prevent there growth[contamination] the better our reptiles will be

i think there are special requirements with some reptile enclosures yes
its a compromise between needs and infections
and i would all ways come down on the side of minimizing the infection


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## ..:: F1D0 ::..

Industrial said:


> You keep yours on sand, what are you on about?
> 
> The mammal thing is mentioned just because the whole hygiene thing sounds ridiculous, I am not comparing reptiles with mammals, although many on here seem to think the two are the same the way they go on.


Yes, i use sand.....but not inches of the stuff! I use rocks/slate under it now and there is a sprinkle to give it a more of a natural substrate as to what they get in the wild. and NOBODY i know on here compares reps with mamals thinking they are the same. Thats why i said mammals have a stronger immune system to infection.


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## GeeUK

What substrate do you use Woodrott, out of curiosity?


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## Industrial

..:: F1D0 ::.. said:


> Yes, i use sand.....but not inches of the stuff! I use rocks/slate under it now and there is a sprinkle to give it a more of a natural substrate as to what they get in the wild. and NOBODY i know on here compares reps with mamals thinking they are the same. Thats why i said mammals have a stronger immune system to infection.


Like I said I *wasn't* comparing mammals with reptiles just wondering if this was to imply everything should be kept this way....or were reptiles unique in this respect .... do you understand now? or will I have to say it a third time?

A layer of sand over some slate isn't natural either, and a bit of sand still harbors bacteria........right?

_and what the heck has holding a reptile upside down have to do with anything!:lol2:_


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## dickvansheepcake

Industrial said:


> Like I said I *wasn't* comparing mammals with reptiles just wondering if this was to imply everything should be kept this way....or were reptiles unique in this respect .... do you understand now? or will I have to say it a third time?
> 
> A layer of sand over some slate isn't natural either, and a bit of sand still harbors bacteria........right?
> 
> _and what the heck has holding a reptile upside down have to do with anything!:lol2:_


Having a little sand dusted over the top of tiles is about the closest you can get to their natural habitat actually. I just have mine on tiles though. It's safe and is easy to keep clean and hygienic.


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## ..:: F1D0 ::..

Industrial said:


> Like I said I *wasn't* comparing mammals with reptiles just wondering if this was to imply everything should be kept this way....or were reptiles unique in this respect .... do you understand now? or will I have to say it a third time?
> 
> A layer of sand over some slate isn't natural either, and a bit of sand still harbors bacteria........right?
> 
> _and what the heck has holding a reptile upside down have to do with anything!:lol2:_


I was saying that woodchips can do serious damage, you said they cant, i said if turning a rep upside down can do damage so can something with sharp edges.

Tiles with a sprinkling of sand is the most natural you are going to get in captivity without going to Oz, digging up some clay and bringing it back.`


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## woodrott

GeeUK said:


> What substrate do you use Woodrott, out of curiosity?


 
i use paper towel if you can call it a substrate


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## Industrial

woodrott said:


> read my posts,,,,,, Ive not switched from impaction to hygiene in the posts Ive done over the course of our conversations
> when have i ever mentioned amphibians or mammals????? I'm talking about reptiles
> and i don't think you can get to paranoid when it comes to parasitic infections
> if every one was as fastidious as me when it comes to cleaning the rep world would be a better place
> if my statements are paranoid and get people thinking and looking in to the problem then Ive done my job in some small way
> 
> no your right not in a bubble
> but all so not in a square meter or so of a higher than needed bacterial environment
> 
> as for skinks, borrowing reptile there are ways as in any other reptile
> enclosure to reduce the chance of bacterial growth you just need to do some research not just do the thing that's easy smells or looks nice[vanity]
> 
> 
> the point I'm trying to put across is don't underestimate bacteria and parasites the more we can do in our reptile enclosures to prevent there growth[contamination] the better our reptiles will be
> 
> i think there are special requirements with some reptile enclosures yes
> its a compromise between needs and infections
> and i would all ways come down on the side of minimizing the infection


I'm not saying they shouldn't be kept clean, any fecal matter should be removed as soon as it is spotted and the whole viv cleaned thoroughly on a regular basis with new substrate added, but to say reptiles can't be kept on loose substrates because of the reasons you have stated earlier, to *me* is a little paranoid so we will have to agree to disagree I'm afraid, and I wouldn't say adding wood chip to a viv makes it look or smell any better than if not, so where's the vanity?....I don't get that!
Oh! and I aint getting at the way you keep them either, what works for you is best, just not for everyone! it just comes across that you are doing it right and others are doing it wrong and I don't agree that's all.


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## Industrial

..:: F1D0 ::.. said:


> I was saying that woodchips can do serious damage, you said they cant, i said if turning a rep upside down can do damage so can something with sharp edges.
> 
> 
> Tiles with a sprinkling of sand is the most natural you are going to get in captivity without going to Oz, digging up some clay and bringing it back.`


 did say there was a risk of impaction with wood chip, as there is with any loose substrate.
Yes I have kept reptiles on and off over many years, early/mid 70's since I was a young boy, so I have learnt a thing or two....experience is a lot better than a care sheet!!!
They don't live on slate tiles with a sprinkling of sand, so *NO* it's not natural to them.
Sorry, you have totally lost me with this upside down lizard, or do you mean, down under lizard, as from Australia :lol2:


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## GlasgowGecko

*Polite request*


> Guys, as most of you will know, I am a lover of debates, and controversial opinions (only my own of course...), but there is a point, when the argument you make is lost because of unnecessary personal comments and attacks. So, I would love to see this discussion continue, but would greatly appreciate it if the personal comments we kept to a minimum.


With that in mind, I would raise the point of 'selective advantage'. Does raising your animals in 'harsh' (relatively) conditions, with higher than average exposure to a suite of bacteria/ pathogens actually increase the health of the captive population?

Oh, and "natural" is a human concept, and implies that the animal can tell the difference between 'natural' and 'non-natural', which of course they can't (NB/ this is not the same as between X and Y, which we assume they can). As such, 'natural' has no bearing on how we house animals in captivity, other than on a personal (human) level.

Andy


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## ..:: F1D0 ::..

Industrial said:


> did say there was a risk of impaction with wood chip, as there is with any loose substrate.
> Yes I have kept reptiles on and off over many years, early/mid 70's since I was a young boy, so I have learnt a thing or two....experience is a lot better than a care sheet!!!
> They don't live on slate tiles with a sprinkling of sand, so *NO* it's not natural to them.
> Sorry, you have totally lost me with this upside down lizard, or do you mean, down under lizard, as from Australia :lol2:


No, i mean if you turn a lizard upside down (i.e on its back) this *could* slowly suffocate it as they dont have a diaphram. Also, want to apologise for my last message. Just didnt like the way you were talking down to me : victory:


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## Industrial

..:: F1D0 ::.. said:


> No, i mean if you turn a lizard upside down (i.e on its back) this *could* slowly suffocate it as they dont have a diaphram. Also, want to apologise for my last message. Just didnt like the way you were talking down to me : victory:


OK bud.......friends?

Oh! And yes I do know what you mean about turning the lizard upside down......just toying with you....sorry!


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## lalacroft25

why dont i just use repti bark or better till kiddies play bark


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## kirky1980

lalacroft25 said:


> why dont i just use repti bark or better till kiddies play bark


kiddies bark is full of cleaning chemicals and wouldtake weeks and weeks to get rid of the smells


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## woodrott

Industrial said:


> I'm not saying they shouldn't be kept clean, any fecal matter should be removed as soon as it is spotted and the whole viv cleaned thoroughly on a regular basis with new substrate added, but to say reptiles can't be kept on loose substrates because of the reasons you have stated earlier, to *me* is a little paranoid so we will have to agree to disagree I'm afraid, and I wouldn't say adding wood chip to a viv makes it look or smell any better than if not, so where's the vanity?....I don't get that!
> Oh! and I aint getting at the way you keep them either, what works for you is best, just not for everyone! it just comes across that you are doing it right and others are doing it wrong and I don't agree that's all.


 
sorry for the slow reply,had to pick my baby up from school

paranoid

i think this comes from my veterinarian experience and 15 years of fighting bacteria and parasites in bearded dragons,,,is paranoia a bad thing,,,

vanity

this comes from lots of post where keepers have said

it looks nice,,,its smells nice,,, so my interpretation is vanity


I'm right your wrong

if keeping a reptile in a less potentially contaminated environment is best
then yes in my opinion I'm right there wrong

here at fire and ice UK ,we incorporate some of the most cutting edge hygiene husbandry that's on the market
with uvc sterilization ,,,with the back up Regine alone being better than most hygiene Regine's

is my way best??????

for me yes definitely,,,
for every one else,,,it would not hurt, it could only be better,as most people that have come here for training have found out to there advantage
being able to control parasites and bacteria only makes for healthier reptiles ,,,fact,,,


mark


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## jamess& Alice the beardie

well... i have had my 2 beardies on woodchip twice and sand twice... and to be honest i think sand wins cause in the past i have had to stop my dragons from swalling chip.. maybe calci sand?


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## woodrott

GlasgowGecko said:


> *Polite request*
> 
> 
> With that in mind, I would raise the point of 'selective advantage'. Does raising your animals in 'harsh' (relatively) conditions, with higher than average exposure to a suite of bacteria/ pathogens actually increase the health of the captive population?
> 
> Oh, and "natural" is a human concept, and implies that the animal can tell the difference between 'natural' and 'non-natural', which of course they can't (NB/ this is not the same as between X and Y, which we assume they can). As such, 'natural' has no bearing on how we house animals in captivity, other than on a personal (human) level.
> 
> Andy


hi Andy
i think Ive been very very reserved this time about a subject i am extremely passionate about , a subject that you must agree has in the past been on the bottom of most reptile keepers pile of things to do or even think about

as for the point you raised

an increased load through environmental conditions or any other conditions for that matter, can only interrupt not benefit the digestion tract ,leading to poor absorption of all the elements that determine healthy growth [my opinion]


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## Tombo46

Industrial said:


> Breeders and experts with far greater knowledge than yourself and I, have and will continue to keep reptiles that way and quite rightly, without fear of them becoming ill from bacteria in loose substrates.


I think that mark didn't even mention who he was etc after this comment was extremely restrained!

At the end of the day, you can not fault Mark's dragons, IMO when it comes to Beardies, his husbandry is tip top and it shows. A lot can be learned from him.


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## woodrott

Tombo46 said:


> I think that mark didn't even mention who he was etc after this comment was extremely restrained!
> 
> At the end of the day, you can not fault Mark's dragons, IMO when it comes to Beardies, his husbandry is tip top and it shows. A lot can be learned from him.


thank you for that tombo

but i don't think my dragons hygiene was ever in doubt
if it was, then I'm sorry no amount of restrain would stop me letting rip

at the end of the day and after all the banter all I'm trying to do is raze
awareness about hygiene
and i will never apologize for being paranoid about the little buggers

mark


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## Industrial

woodrott said:


> sorry for the slow reply,had to pick my baby up from school
> 
> paranoid
> 
> i think this comes from my veterinarian experience and 15 years of fighting bacteria and parasites in bearded dragons,,,is paranoia a bad thing,,,
> 
> vanity
> 
> this comes from lots of post where keepers have said
> 
> it looks nice,,,its smells nice,,, so my interpretation is vanity
> 
> 
> I'm right your wrong
> 
> if keeping a reptile in a less potentially contaminated environment is best
> then yes in my opinion I'm right there wrong
> 
> here at fire and ice UK ,we incorporate some of the most cutting edge hygiene husbandry that's on the market
> with uvc sterilization ,,,with the back up Regine alone being better than most hygiene Regine's
> 
> is my way best?????
> 
> for me yes definitely,,,
> for every one else,,,it would not hurt, it could only be better,as most people that have come here for training have found out to there advantage
> being able to control parasites and bacteria only makes for healthier reptiles ,,,fact,,,
> 
> 
> mark


I realise that breeding these is your business and strict hygiene regimes would be of great benefit to you, as any losses could seriously affect you financially and outbreaks of disease could be a serious threat to your collection but as most here keep only one or a pair as a pet or part of a small collection I think daily spot cleaning and regular thorough disinfecting of the viv is adequate and a substrate of their choice (as recommended for that particular species) is fine. In an ideal world yes it would be great to keep them from free of all things that could harm them but that will never happen and maybe keeping them in such scrupulously clean conditions could even hamper them in the long run, their bodies could come to rely on those conditions so when they are subjected to parasites and disease they are less equipped to deal with it than another.


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## woodrott

Industrial said:


> I realise that breeding these is your business and strict hygiene regimes would be of great benefit to you, as any losses could seriously affect you financially and outbreaks of disease could be a serious threat to your collection but as most here keep only one or a pair as a pet or part of a small collection I think daily spot cleaning and regular thorough disinfecting of the viv is adequate and a substrate of their choice (as recommended for that particular species) is fine. In an ideal world yes it would be great to keep them from free of all things that could harm them but that will never happen and maybe keeping them in such scrupulously clean conditions could even hamper them in the long run, their bodies could come to rely on those conditions so when they are subjected to parasites and disease they are less equipped to deal with it than another.


facts
sorry breeding dragons is not a business for me
I'm involved with fire and ice sure but its my hobby
and it costs me a dam site more than i get back,,,fact,,,

other people

why should the amount of dragons[reptiles]you keep matter
the needs of one £5 or one £5000 dragon are the same
there's no difference for one or twenty one when it comes to hygiene
or for that matter any husbandry

this is[ in part] the point and why Ive been posting just because you only have one or two reptiles dose not excuse you from improving and learning
about hygiene
this type of attitude only makes for a slow improvement in husbandry skills

mark


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## Industrial

You just keep missing the point totally and probably knowingly so this is my last post on the subject.
I am not implying that keeping them the way you don't is unhygienic, I reckon it's way enough, it's you that doesn't, so don't imply I and many others are keeping our reptiles in substandard conditions.....that is so arrogant!

Oh! And I do apologise for not knowing the in's and out's of your private life, maybe if you didn't go on about it so much people wouldn't get the wrong idea. 

I'll leave the final self centred comment to you then as I'm sure you will.
I don't know how anyone can discuss anything with you.:closed:


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## woodrott

Industrial said:


> You just keep missing the point totally and probably knowingly so this is my last post on the subject.
> I am not implying that keeping them the way you don't is unhygienic, I reckon it's way enough, it's you that doesn't, so don't imply I and many others are keeping our reptiles in substandard conditions.....that is so arrogant!
> 
> Oh! And I do apologise for not knowing the in's and out's of your private life, maybe if you didn't go on about it so much people wouldn't get the wrong idea.
> 
> I'll leave the final self centred comment to you then as I'm sure you will.
> I don't know how anyone can discuss anything with you, you are so up yourself.:closed:


i thank you for your comments,,, and yes if you don't mind i will take the final comment 

yes I'm arrogant never pretended not to be
self centered ,,may be
but in the end
you could not give me any evidence to the contrary when it came to hygiene and loose substrate

as for my life's in,s and outs you brought it up not me

so you resort to giving me verbal abuse
this is not a good way to debate just a good way to show your age:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:
i will add my phone number if you ever need help
i don't hold a grudge 01244382780

mark


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