# Please help! Sick corn snake :(



## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

I fed my corn snake two fuzzies on the 14.02.15 and she was fine, pooped and everything as normal, but then the next feed i only had one mouse left so i just gave her one which was on the 22.02.15 and she didnt poop at all that week, i thought maybe its just because the meal was significantly smaller so she isnt ready yet, so i carried on as normal and fed her another fuzzy on the 02.03.15 and she still hasnt pooped and ive noticed that the thickest part of her body appears swollen, as in it doesnt gradually get thinner towards the tail, its more of an obvious bulge, its nowhere near the vent and the vent doesnt appear to be particularly swollen. She's soaking in warm water as we speak but she still hasnt pooped. She doesnt seem herself either, she's not as calm
When i go to handle her and she doesnt seem to wrap around my fingers in the same way that she normally does, its hard to explain. Has anyone had anything similar or know whats going on?


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

I've read elsewhere that the lumb in her belly is probably the undigested mouse, which would explain why she hasnt pooped if she hasnt even digested the mouse... She's got a hot spot between 30c and 35c and she hasnt really moved from the warm end at all since i fed her but she doesnt seem to be digesting. Somebody also said that theyve known this to happen when the snake is going into shed. However, she has only shed once since i bought her so i dont know how often she usually sheds, i was told she was 6 months old when i bought her at the end of December but she's like 2ft long so could be more like a year old, and her last shed was on the 15th of January so i guess she could be likely to shed any time now? She doesnt seem to be in blue but her colours do seem a little dull so fingers crossed that's all the problem is. Im going to give her a few days while i'm working and if nothing has changed by my next day off then i'll be taking her to the vet


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## Shaun M (Nov 1, 2014)

I don't really have an answer to your question, but I think the hot spot is too hot. That could be causing the problem, or at least not helping with it. 
For my corn snake, I keep the hot spot at 28c.
What are you using to heat the hot spot, and how are you measuring temperatures?


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

I could try turning the temperature down a little but i didnt think it was causing a problem as she is using the hot spot rather than retreating to the cool end all the time, and the heat is supposed to help with digestion, right? Also the temps have always been the same so i dont understand why it would suddenly become a problem? I dont mean to sound like im turning my nose up at your advice im just trying to show you the bigger picture, if you still think i need to turn it down once ive explained everything then i will do. I'm running a heat mat plugged into a microclimate ministat 100 and monitoring with a komodo dual guage digital thermometer/hygrometer with the thermostat probe and the thermometer probe next to eachother ontop of the substrate inside the warm hide


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## Shaun M (Nov 1, 2014)

No, that's fine. I wasn't saying that is definitely causing the problem. I'm by no means an expert. I only own one corn snake. But so far everywhere I've read about correct temperatures, it says between 27c - 30c. Getting up to 35c seems a bit high for a corn snake.
I just thought lowering the temperatures might be worth giving a try.

The only other thing I know of, is impaction from swallowing substrate.
I don't think anyone could give you the exact cause, other than a vet.


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

Yeah ive seen that a lot of people advise the temperatures at less than what mine are and some advise what mine are at, thats the trouble ive read so many different care sheets for corns and they all give diffrent advice so i never know what to follow :/ i will try lowering the temps slightly but its difficult because it fluctuates so much, the thermostat kicks in at 30 and goes off at 35, so if i drop it down to a maximum of 28 it will drop right down to like 22 before the thermostat kicks in again, and the cool end is at like 24 so there will be no difference in the warm and the cool end at times so i dont know what to do, maybe get a better thermostat?


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

hot spot should be a steady 31-32C - if you hot spot is swinging 5C then something is wrong with the setup, probably need a better thermostat (pulse for eg)


other than the slow digestion, which is probably due to the unstable basking temps, there is nothing else you have described which causes me any concern

(sorry but 28C is not a high enough basking temp for a corn, as suggested above - there are numerous threads about impaction and other health conditions with a common parameter of 28C basking temps!)


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## Shaun M (Nov 1, 2014)

Everyone has different opinions I suppose.
The hot spot in mine is 28/29c. It has been since I got her and I haven't had any problems as of yet.
I agree that you should get a pulse stat either way though. I tried the on/off microclimate stat for a day before giving up and upgrading to a habistat pulse.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Shaun M said:


> Everyone has different opinions I suppose.
> The hot spot in mine is 28/29c. It has been since I got her and I haven't had any problems as of yet.
> I agree that you should get a pulse stat either way though. I tried the on/off microclimate stat for a day before giving up and upgrading to a habistat pulse.


do a search for impacted, liver failure and liver tumours in corns...check the temps those snakes where kept at. same every time.


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## Shaun M (Nov 1, 2014)

CloudForest said:


> do a search for impacted, liver failure and liver tumours in corns...check the temps those snakes where kept at. same every time.


Before getting mine I looked at quite a few different care sheets, and advice from breeders. Including the big breeders like BHB reptiles. They all said 27 - 30c. I'm just listening to professionals who know far more than me.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

well I've only been keeping reptiles 21 years, so i can see why you wouldn't want to at least check out the threads I suggested


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## Shaun M (Nov 1, 2014)

CloudForest said:


> well I've only been keeping reptiles 21 years, so i can see why you wouldn't want to at least check out the threads I suggested


I'd be happy to. I did search and I couldn't find anything. Send me a link?
I just don't see why all these breeders would keep thier animals at temperatures that have been proven to cause such serious issues.
I've never actually even seen one care sheet or heard someone on here recommend anything over 30c for a corn snake. 
Anyways, everyone has different opinions. I doubt either of us will change each others minds.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Shaun M said:


> I'd be happy to. I did search and I couldn't find anything. Send me a link?
> I just don't see why all these breeders would keep thier animals at temperatures that have been proven to cause such serious issues.
> I've never actually even seen one care sheet or heard someone on here recommend anything over 30c for a corn snake.
> Anyways, everyone has different opinions. I doubt either of us will change each others minds.


run a search in this forum, there are at least 3 incidents in the last 4-5 weeks, and the common denominator was 28C basking temp; 30C is fine, but those 2 degrees can be significant


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## Pockets (May 27, 2014)

Both my corns are at a Max 31.5 never had a problem and I use on and off stats with no problem.

As cloud forest say 28 is to low in fact I don't think I've e en seen a care sheet with it 

Mine have taken aspen with there meal at times the drag it and yet there fine.

And one if my corns were fed fluffs for over a year and with my current set up he is fine putting on nice wieght also


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## Shaun M (Nov 1, 2014)

CloudForest said:


> run a search in this forum, there are at least 3 incidents in the last 4-5 weeks, and the common denominator was 28C basking temp; 30C is fine, but those 2 degrees can be significant


I saw them and you are correct, but the theory just doesn't make sense to me.
Saying every corn snake that has those issues was kept at 28/29c, therefore that's what caused the issue, is like saying, every house that burned down had a sink, therefore it's the sink that caused it.

Almost all corn snakes that delelop such issues will be kept at 28/29c. Simply because that's the temperature almost all corns are kept at.
To my knowledge, there's no actual proof behind your theory.

Either way, I think we both agree that 34/35c is too high.
I don't want to spam the thread with a debate about the correct temperatures. So my advice, take her to the vet. I think that's the only way you'll get a definite answer.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Shaun M said:


> I saw them and you are correct, but the theory just doesn't make sense to me.
> Saying every corn snake that has those issues was kept at 28/29c, therefore that's what caused the issue, is like saying, every house that burned down had a sink, therefore it's the sink that caused it.
> 
> Almost all corn snakes that delelop such issues will be kept at 28/29c. Simply because that's the temperature almost all corns are kept at.
> ...


it makes sense when you have seen the same problems come up time and time again, and the temp is always the same 

its not true that corns are mostly kept at 28-29C, not sure where you have got that from tbh...apart from you, and one other person on this forum, the only people I know that keep them at this temp, are ones who come on here asking for help with the same 3 health problems


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

Thanks for the help everyone, though i can see there's some conflict going on which has left me unsure  youve all agreed that up to 35 is too high so i'll turn it down to 30, i have only decided to go with 30 over 28 because of the fluctuation issue with my thermostat, i do intend to buy one of those pulse ones but until it arrives i cant be letting my temps drop too low because that certainly wont help with digestion. So dont want anyone to think i believe one person over the other because that's not the case, i'm a newbie so i believe all of you, i have no choice lol. So is impaction caused by swallowing substrate? Because she's in a new tank so i decided to feed her inside it the last few times just to try and help her feel at home, also Brian from snakebytes pointed out that in the wild theyre gonna swallow bits of grass/dirt etc from time to time so there's no need to worry about them swallowing a little bit of substrate. I always watch her eat anyway and i didnt see any substrate stuck to the mice she's eaten so i'm kind of thinking i can almost rule that out? Anyway tomorrow is my last day at work so i'll get that out of the way and then take her to the vet if there's no improvement in anything by then. Thanks guys


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## EmmaNeedham (Feb 10, 2015)

Let us know how you get on.... I've just read this thread and hope the little guy gets better xx


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

Thanks Emma and yeah me too, i'll do my best for her! It just sucks the amount of homework i do just to learn how to make sure everythings right for her, and yet i still cant work out where i've gone wrong :/


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## EmmaNeedham (Feb 10, 2015)

That's why I love this forum, doesn't matter how much you research it will only tell you the basics, guys on here are always here to help as much as they can


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

Yeah it's brilliant! It's amazing how much response you get too, i was thinking like anyones ever gonna care about answering my stupid noob questions  but then i woke up to find a ton of info from people. Faith in humanity restored! Well i've found a vet local to me so i'm gonna give them a call this morning, i'll keep you all updated, fingers crossed for us!


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## EmmaNeedham (Feb 10, 2015)

Fingers crossed


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

Great news everyone, i booked Eleanor in at the vets for 6pm tonight, but in the mean time i decided to try giving her another bath, but ran the water much warmer this time, she wasnt happy about it but sure enough she did a massive poo and ive never been so pleased to see something so vile  she still has the lump in her belly but i think it'll go down now that she's pooing. Ive also treat her to some new goodies for her home and she's actually doing a bit of exploring instead of living like a recluse in her warm hide, im so happy right now  i'm still taking her to the vets in a minute just to be on the safe side, but im feeling much more positive than i was this morning!


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)




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## EmmaNeedham (Feb 10, 2015)

Oh Thank God!!! I'm so happy for you


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

Cheers, me too  the vet turned out to be a waste of time, i asked on the phone if they treat reptiles and they said yes, and took all Eleanors details and stuff, then when i turned up the bloke had to ask me what was in the box, so they clearly hadnt told him what kind of animal i was bringing in. But at least he was honest and told me he's not a reptile expert and that they should have told me that over the phone. Knew i was wasting my time as soon as i walked in and the receptionist saw Eleanor and ran a mile lol. Need to find myself a reptile expert now but in the mean time at least i made progress with my own treatment so i intend to keep bathing her in warm water and hopefully everything in her belly will come out. It's now a week since i last fed her, is it wise to feed her again or should i miss a feed while i'm still trying to make her poo out that lump in her belly?


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

Just thought i'd share this, it's awesome to see her looking happy and lively again


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## EmmaNeedham (Feb 10, 2015)

OMG she's like my Mango!!! Lol


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

I 'd like to be cool and know what youre chattin' but i'm still just a clueless peasant thinking my snake looks like something you found in your mums fruit bowl  is mango a type of corn or something else? I've found that pictures are far more educational for me *hint hint*


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## EmmaNeedham (Feb 10, 2015)

Mango is my corn Yes...


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

Dear lord, what on earth was i uttering last night? I'm never drinking again! Your mango is gorgeous by the way, looks a lot like an okeetee to me which is what i originally wanted but couldnt find one local at the time. Whats he/she called?


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## EmmaNeedham (Feb 10, 2015)

Mango is her name lol


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

Oh, i'll just shut up then, haha


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## EmmaNeedham (Feb 10, 2015)

My son named her, I couldn't say no


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

I like it, although it's making me very thirsty, it may be time to drag my arse out of bed and go get a drink :') 
I named Eleanor after the mustang from "Gone in 60 seconds" we planned to name our daughter that, but we're not having one any time soon so the snake beat her to it lol, guess i could still do it but then it'll be like she's named after the snake rather than the car, and that would be a bit weird, right? Haha


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## EmmaNeedham (Feb 10, 2015)

Yea I also can't see that going down very well with your partner haha


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## Jamie XVX (Nov 24, 2014)

Shaun M said:


> I saw them and you are correct, but the theory just doesn't make sense to me.
> Saying every corn snake that has those issues was kept at 28/29c, therefore that's what caused the issue, is like saying, every house that burned down had a sink, therefore it's the sink that caused it.
> 
> Almost all corn snakes that delelop such issues will be kept at 28/29c. Simply because that's the temperature almost all corns are kept at.
> ...


Sorry to bring back an old response, but...

If you understand the reptilian metabolic process, your analogy makes literally no sense. Reptiles cannot metabolise without heat. Slow metabolism causes all of the symptoms provided above. 

It's not a giant leap to take what we know about basic reptilian biology, apply it to the situation and husbandry in question and make an educated assumption based on that.

One of the problems with husbandry issues is people assuming that a recommendation for a whole species will absolutely need to be applied to all of that species. That isn't the case. Whilst a corn may have a perfectly functioning metabolism at 28 degrees, another might not. If they would both have a perfectly functioning metabolism at 30/32 degrees, the optimum temperature for corn snake basking would be 30/32 degrees. Keeping a snake at a lower temperature will not definitely cause problems, but keeping it a bit warmer will almost certainly avoid them. 

You are, however, correct that the only way to get a definite answer is by talking to a vet.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

It should be pointed out that all the studies on corn snakes, their metabolism, digestion and temperature, where short term studies - this is where this idea about 28C''s has come from, it really doesn't have any baring on long term conditions, being able to digest a few meals doesn't mean anything, long term

I'm really quite surprised that this figure is still being thrown about, considering how many corns there are out there, and how many end up with serious, even fatal health conditions, when kept with 28C basking temps


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## Shaun M (Nov 1, 2014)

Jamie XVX said:


> Sorry to bring back an old response, but...
> 
> If you understand the reptilian metabolic process, your analogy makes literally no sense. Reptiles cannot metabolise without heat. Slow metabolism causes all of the symptoms provided above.
> 
> ...


Like I said in my first response, I'm not an expert. You clearly know more than me. 
All I have to go off is what I've heard. Before getting mine I watched a ton of videos, and looked at a lot of care sheets, and this is the first time I've heard anyone recommend over 30c that I can remember.
I even remember Brian from snakebytes recommending 29c.
But something I do know for a fact is many people keep theirs in the 27-30c range. 
Just google corn snake followed by those numbers and you'll find hundreds of threads with people recommending those temperatures.

The one thing I did notice is when I turned the temperatures down for mine from 30.5 to 28.4c is, she started feeding better. 
Although that could just be a coincidence.

I am happy to learn more though. I own a few royals and I'm curious how two different species that originate from such different places need the exact same temperatures?


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Shaun M said:


> But something I do know for a fact is many people keep theirs in the 27-30c range.
> Just google corn snake followed by those numbers


 its not a fact mate, i don't know anyone who keeps their corns at that temp, except the ones who come on here wondering why their corns are ill...just because google throws up lots of results to dodgy information doesn't make it so, unfortunately

there are thousands of monitor lizards sitting in dry sandy cages with 100f basking spots right now, because of the "facts" thrown up by google...and they will all be dead before their 4th birthday because of it


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

Strangely enough, it was her idea, Emma! 

As for all the conflict about temperatures, ive lowered it slightly so it fluctuates between like 29 and 33 and generally sits at about 31, thats the best i can do to settle it between all of you. Though i'm not convinced that the temps were causing the problem to start with, the temps hadnt changed since i got her and she's been fine with it up to now, also she's been spending most of her time in the warm end so i would think she would go in the cool end or the water bowl if it was really too warm? But anyway back to the matter at hand, i went to the vet yesterday and it was a waste of time, they forgot to mention on the phone that theyre not a reptile specialist, even though i made it clear i was bringing a snake, but luckily i gave her a warm bath yesterday and she did a big nasty poop, and ive just done the same again today and there was no poop, just the white mushy stuff. She still has the lump in her belly but it doesnt seem so much like a lump any more, its more like her belly is just a bit droopy in a certain part. She seems to be acting a bit more like her usual self so hopefully she's on the mend if i just carry on as i'm doing, but she must be getting hungry now its been 8 days since she last ate, do you guys think i should feed her or should i miss a feed and just keep bathing her for a bit longer and see what happens?


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## Jamie XVX (Nov 24, 2014)

Shaun M said:


> Like I said in my first response, I'm not an expert. You clearly know more than me.
> All I have to go off is what I've heard. Before getting mine I watched a ton of videos, and looked at a lot of care sheets, and this is the first time I've heard anyone recommend over 30c that I can remember.
> I even remember Brian from snakebytes recommending 29c.
> But something I do know for a fact is many people keep theirs in the 27-30c range.
> ...


Brian from Snakebytes keeps a Nile Monitor in a drawer. I'm not sure I need to say much more than that really. He has some interesting ideas about correct husbandry.

Like I said, snakes have individual metabolic differences, and what is correct for one snake might be wrong for another, even within the same species. If you got benefit from lowering the temperature slightly, then that is the correct thing to do in that situation. 

People tend to be very conservative with their temperatures, because underheating will lead to chronic illness and overheating can kill in less than a day. I think this makes people overcautious. It is definitely better to start with to err on the side of caution, however if you see any potential that your snake is under-eating then temperature is a key variable and I would say one that is worth adjusting. It is obviously very important to ensure before you begin any experimentation with temperature that: 

1 - You are aware not only of "optimum" temperatures for the species in question, you are aware of the minimum and maximum thresholds for their temperature requirements, both for basking and ambient needs.

2 - You are able to increase (or decrease) the temperature of your basking area without aversely affecting the cool end of the viv - and vice versa.

3 - Your adjustments are small (less than a degree), incremental and that there is a day or two break between each increment. Don't raise a corn snake from 26 degrees one day to 31 the next.

4 - You know your snakes behavior well enough to be aware of positive and negative changes to that behaviour - not just their dietery intake, but stress signals and other behaviour.

5 - You DO NOT perform any other adjustments during this time - changes to UV or humidity levels will seriously cloud your ability to tell what is affecting your animals behavioural changes.


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

I appreciate that you all wanna get your point across but you seem to have side tracked and forgotten what this thread was about. I'm the one with the sick snake and i need answers, im confident that ive resolved any temperature issues that there might have been so i need to move on. Can someone please respond to my last comment? Thanks


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)




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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

Its been hard to get the lump to show on a photo but you can just see it in this one, just above the headlight on my tattoo


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## EmmaNeedham (Feb 10, 2015)

I like turtles!!


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## EmmaNeedham (Feb 10, 2015)

She wouldn't stay still for a photo she's such a diva


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## EmmaNeedham (Feb 10, 2015)

I think now she's had a poo she'll be fine. Her tummy should go back down, just keep an eye on her and any abnormal behaviour I'd maybe ring a reptile shop closest to you to see if they can advise?


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

SerpentSid said:


> , the temps hadnt changed since i got her and she's been fine with it up to now,


this is the point - these problems are the result of long term inability to thermo regulate, with the exception of undigested meals causing acute impaction, most problems are progressive/chronic, and may take years to manifest


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

I understand that but ive lowered the temperature now anyway so i cant do anything else other than wait and see if it has a positive effect. I just want to know everyones opinion on wether or not i should feed her yet? I'm thinking i should probably try it and see if she poops by herself this time, and it might help flush out whatever else is in there? 

She's a beauty, Emma! Cant wait for Eleanor to be all grown up like that


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## Bithellio (Aug 1, 2011)

ive experienced the sacryness of "the lump" before and mien turned out to just be residual poop that for some reason did pass for a while. if the vets dont know then i understand how frustrating it is. all you can do it be patient. as long as she still seems herself i wouldnt be too worried at this point. ( i may have missed some points you made in the midst of the temp argument) if i have i apologise,


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

Ok well thanks for telling me, that gives me some hope  i'm trying to find a reptile vet to register with but hopefully i can get her back to normal myself, she definitely seems more like herself now that ive got some of that poo out of her system, so i'm going to feed her as normal and just keep bathing her for now and we'll see how it goes


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## Bithellio (Aug 1, 2011)

SerpentSid said:


> Ok well thanks for telling me, that gives me some hope  i'm trying to find a reptile vet to register with but hopefully i can get her back to normal myself, she definitely seems more like herself now that ive got some of that poo out of her system, so i'm going to feed her as normal and just keep bathing her for now and we'll see how it goes


My mind was set at east just by talking to a rep vet. ( i just found the nearest one and called for advice) they were really helpful. they actually told me not to come in becuase it could only be x,y,or z so just keep an eye on it and if the state changed to call them back


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

Ok well thanks again, ive fed her earlier today so we'll see what the week brings, i'll keep you all updated


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## SerpentSid (Jan 28, 2015)

Just a quick update for you all... 
I've left Eleanor alone while she hasnt been very well and not disturbed her at all other than to change water and clean up poop (yes she's pooping fine now without me bathing her) i took away all of her leaves and stuff, just leaving her with the standard hide at each end just to make it easier for me to keep an eye on her without disturbing her... Anyway i havent seen much of her, she's been pretty reclusive, she popped her head out once or twice today but never came fully out, then i went out for 10 mins to take my grandma home, came back to find her just creeping away from her old skin! (Damn it grandma! Cant believe you made me miss that!) 
Then she did a big poop right afterwards so i got her out for a bit to see how she was doing and to take the shed and poop out, and i found that her lump has now completely gone and she's back to normal and with her shiny new paint job  
Now that it seems there's nothing to worry about, ive put all her leaves and goodies back in her tank and she's been exploring around for hours, then she decided to be a tree snake for a bit and went to sleep in the top of a hanging plant lol. Just fed her a few mice and waiting for her to settle again now, think she's still in hunting mode! 
Also thanks for advising me to drop the temps, she seems to be thermoregulating much better now at 30c, she's using both ends of the viv fairly evenly now  
So yeah nice happy ending for this thread!


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