# Choosing a new species



## Spades (3 mo ago)

Hi all!

I recently made my welcome post and mentioned I was looking at getting into a new, perhaps lesser kept species. I currently have a corn and a royal (very cliche I know) but am very much on the diversification train at the moment.

I've spent many months mulling it over and am stuck on two genus, Pituophis and Elaphe - in particular Russian Rat Snakes and Gopher Snakes (although I am ever swayed towards Japanese Rats and Pines/Bulls).

My main criteria come down to wanting a snake with at least some diurnal behaviours, generally handleable (although they don't _have _to be as completely mellow as I've heard Russians are), and larger than my existing snakes. I do want a captive bred animal, so availability is a consideration. Ideally suitable for a 6ft enclosure, but I could potentially stretch to a 8ft long enclosure if I do some serious reorganisation of my office-reptile room.

Anyone have any recommendations between the two? Or some wildcard species that I might not have considered!


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Part of the problem is that these days finding anything that isn't a boa, royal or corn snake is that little more harder than it was a few decades ago when it was quite common to see a decent variety in snakes available through retail and private breeders, and then it tended to be more your common yellow or grey rat snakes, and a selection of kings and milks, but you did still see the odd pine snake hear and there. This was the time when Mexican black kingsnakes were typically the same price of a corn snake... now look at them.

I would first source what's available, especially as most of the gopher / pines etc tend to breed in the spring so hatchlings may be in short supply. There are a few RFUK members who are more experienced with the snakes on your list, and often list them in the classifieds. In fact the snake classified section is a good place to start. Search for previous listings, and if the seller has a high post count (that way you know they are a regular member and not someone just joining to sell animals) try dropping them a PM to enquire what their future breeding plans might be assuming they still have the adults.


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## Spades (3 mo ago)

Malc said:


> Part of the problem is that these days finding anything that isn't a boa, royal or corn snake is that little more harder than it was a few decades ago when it was quite common to see a decent variety in snakes available through retail and private breeders, and then it tended to be more your common yellow or grey rat snakes, and a selection of kings and milks, but you did still see the odd pine snake hear and there. This was the time when Mexican black kingsnakes were typically the same price of a corn snake... now look at them.
> 
> I would first source what's available, especially as most of the gopher / pines etc tend to breed in the spring so hatchlings may be in short supply. There are a few RFUK members who are more experienced with the snakes on your list, and often list them in the classifieds. In fact the snake classified section is a good place to start. Search for previous listings, and if the seller has a high post count (that way you know they are a regular member and not someone just joining to sell animals) try dropping them a PM to enquire what their future breeding plans might be assuming they still have the adults.


Thank you for the advice! I’ve lurked on the forums for a while without an account and finally wound up on the classifieds a few months ago searching for sources of less bred snakes. Hadn’t thought of enquiring about breeding plans actually. We’re still a few months away from bringing a new snake home as we’ve still got one in quarantine so next season will be most likely.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

How about a European four lined snake? They get big (around 6 feet and solid), very easy to keep, and extremely gentle. There are a couple of people breeding them in the UK.
Having had the pleasure of keeping a pair of these, I can thoroughly recommend them.
Very rarely seen, impressive animals, gentle and inoffensive. The species fits all the points you are looking for.


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## spigotbush (Feb 8, 2019)

personally i would get a measure of your room and shortlist any species by the resting parameters of the room. the closer the fit, the more relaxed the experience and the more you can do with the animal. for instance, my room pretty reliably sits around 50% humidity and the temps fluctuate along with the ambient temps. so for the most relaxed experience i needed a hardy, cooler climate, temperate species. that allowed me to build a very open and lightweight viv with lots of scope for changing enrichment. i could keep a tropical species or an arid species but it would be much more complex to maintain the parameters in the room. which would then add more to the costs of set up and maintenance.

as far as specific species, the only one i could thoroughly recommend is the russian. plenty of others appeal very much to me but without personal experience of them i wouldnt suggest any one over another. i know that for myself the european four lined snake is one that i really want. if i find space for another large enclosure then they are way up on the wishlist. a close second is garter snakes.
i would just say that in my experience, russians arent "mellow". they are very, very, personable and not aggressive. however they are not something i handle whilst doing something else. my corn snake can sit up on my shoulders and is a very sedate handling experience, at least in the spring when he gets a lot from being out, i dont handle much at all this time of year. the ruskie is a whole activity in itself. he will climb out on to me readily, i handle him regularly but havent actually picked him up in months, but while i move one hand to keep him off my throat his head will be in my pockets or climbing up the curtains/diving into a gap. when i go in to clean up a turd he is often all over me, climbing into my shirt, pulling my glasses off and generally getting in the way. plus he can be remarkably fast, if you are not watching its so sudden to find him doing something stupid. dont get me wrong, i love him and all his mischief and i have absolute trust in him. its just that my corn snake is pretty active, and the ruskie makes him look like a pet rock.


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## Spades (3 mo ago)

ian14 said:


> How about a European four lined snake? They get big (around 6 feet and solid), very easy to keep, and extremely gentle. There are a couple of people breeding them in the UK.
> Having had the pleasure of keeping a pair of these, I can thoroughly recommend them.
> Very rarely seen, impressive animals, gentle and inoffensive. The species fits all the points you are looking for.


I hadn’t even considered them! Seen them in passing but hadn’t even occurred to me as a candidate. Did you find them to be fairly active? And would a 6x2x3 be a good enclosure for a single snake (or pair of females if they’re social)?


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Spades said:


> I hadn’t even considered them! Seen them in passing but hadn’t even occurred to me as a candidate. Did you find them to be fairly active? And would a 6x2x3 be a good enclosure for a single snake (or pair of females if they’re social)?


Very inquisitive and diurnal, they would usually appear as soon as anyone walked past, checking out what was going on. I would imagine that the size vov you have would easily house a female. Males are slightly smaller, but not by much.
Aesculapians are another option, but they are smaller. I had a wc pair years back that were from the London population and they were BIG. I didn't keep them long as I couldn't get them to feed, was very young (15, I got them doing work experi3nce at London Zoo and a pair were found and handed to the reptile house) and had no experience of wc, so passed them onto someone else. I had a pair of CB which, despite breeding for me, were much smaller than the wc pair, both in length and comparative girth.
That said, they are active, engaging, and a pair would be very happy in the size viv you can provide.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

You could also consider one of the Asian beauty snakes. I've owned Thai and Vietnamese Blues, again, active, nice temperaments


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## Spades (3 mo ago)

spigotbush said:


> personally i would get a measure of your room and shortlist any species by the resting parameters of the room. the closer the fit, the more relaxed the experience and the more you can do with the animal. for instance, my room pretty reliably sits around 50% humidity and the temps fluctuate along with the ambient temps. so for the most relaxed experience i needed a hardy, cooler climate, temperate species. that allowed me to build a very open and lightweight viv with lots of scope for changing enrichment. i could keep a tropical species or an arid species but it would be much more complex to maintain the parameters in the room. which would then add more to the costs of set up and maintenance.
> 
> as far as specific species, the only one i could thoroughly recommend is the russian. plenty of others appeal very much to me but without personal experience of them i wouldnt suggest any one over another. i know that for myself the european four lined snake is one that i really want. if i find space for another large enclosure then they are way up on the wishlist. a close second is garter snakes.
> i would just say that in my experience, russians arent "mellow". they are very, very, personable and not aggressive. however they are not something i handle whilst doing something else. my corn snake can sit up on my shoulders and is a very sedate handling experience, at least in the spring when he gets a lot from being out, i dont handle much at all this time of year. the ruskie is a whole activity in itself. he will climb out on to me readily, i handle him regularly but havent actually picked him up in months, but while i move one hand to keep him off my throat his head will be in my pockets or climbing up the curtains/diving into a gap. when i go in to clean up a turd he is often all over me, climbing into my shirt, pulling my glasses off and generally getting in the way. plus he can be remarkably fast, if you are not watching its so sudden to find him doing something stupid. dont get me wrong, i love him and all his mischief and i have absolute trust in him. its just that my corn snake is pretty active, and the ruskie makes him look like a pet rock.


Our house gets VERY humid in the winter, to the point that it’s already worrying me a little with the corn. I do run a dehumidifier for that reason. I don’t tend to struggle with maintaining temps in any of my setups though.
Good to hear some first hand experience with the Russian. I do like the sound of the mischief, but whether that will sit well with my partner I’m not sure!




ian14 said:


> Very inquisitive and diurnal, they would usually appear as soon as anyone walked past, checking out what was going on. I would imagine that the size vov you have would easily house a female. Males are slightly smaller, but not by much.
> Aesculapians are another option, but they are smaller. I had a wc pair years back that were from the London population and they were BIG. I didn't keep them long as I couldn't get them to feed, was very young (15, I got them doing work experi3nce at London Zoo and a pair were found and handed to the reptile house) and had no experience of wc, so passed them onto someone else. I had a pair of CB which, despite breeding for me, were much smaller than the wc pair, both in length and comparative girth.
> That said, they are active, engaging, and a pair would be very happy in the size viv you can provide.


I have considered Aesculapians as well, not really sure why I ever ruled them out as they sound like wonderful snakes.


ian14 said:


> You could also consider one of the Asian beauty snakes. I've owned Thai and Vietnamese Blues, again, active, nice temperaments


Thai beauties were among the first alternative species I ever considered, along with Chinese beauties (availability is a big issue there though as I’m not looking for any albino variants). I had wondered if they’d need a larger enclosure than a 6ft, but that’s not necessarily an impossibility either.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Aesculapians are definitely worth thinking about. There is also a very attractive melanistic form quite commonly available. My adult pair were housed together, separated for feeding. Very laid back, calm and active snakes. You available space would easily house a pair.


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## Pirate7 (Apr 7, 2008)

Depending on how much experence and confidence you have, Baron's Racers could be a good shout. I absolutely love mine, they are large, inquisitve and diurnal. Always watching what I am doing. When handling they are very quick so they are more of a display species, though I handle mine and eat on the dot _all _the time even during sheds.

One main consideration:-- they are rear fanged with a huge gape, although very reluctant to bite (even in feeding mode and it would rather musk all over you whilst doing the windmill with it's tail to spread the skank... 😅 ) there are reports of potent venom according to this paper it's advised:- "_should be considered dangerous to humans and any medically significant bite should be promptly reviewed by a qualified health professional." _They also have a cousin, _Philodryas olfersii _which is on the DWA.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Pirate7 said:


> Depending on how much experence and confidence you have, Baron's Racers could be a good shout. I absolutely love mine, they are large, inquisitve and diurnal. Always watching what I am doing. When handling they are very quick so they are more of a display species, though I handle mine and eat on the dot _all _the time even during sheds.
> 
> One main consideration:-- they are rear fanged with a huge gape, although very reluctant to bite (even in feeding mode and it would rather musk all over you whilst doing the windmill with it's tail to spread the skank... 😅 ) there are reports of potent venom according to this paper it's advised:- "_should be considered dangerous to humans and any medically significant bite should be promptly reviewed by a qualified health professional." _They also have a cousin, _Philodryas olfersii _which is on the DWA.


That's a good call.
I've bred these several times.
They are great snakes, I never had any aggression from mine.
Great feeders, alert and active. I happily handled mine without any concerns.
The huge gape is absolutely true. My big female would strike at a chick and almost engulf it with that first bite.


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## Pirate7 (Apr 7, 2008)

ian14 said:


> That's a good call.
> I've bred these several times.
> They are great snakes, I never had any aggression from mine.
> Great feeders, alert and active. I happily handled mine without any concerns.
> The huge gape is absolutely true. My big female would strike at a chick and almost engulf it with that first bite.


They're great snakes! I think they should be more popular, but at the same time... aboreal and rear fanged, that would probably put many people off.
Ha, that's insane, mine do the same with large weiners, I might try chicks next time. They're never satisfied either. 

Another species I would say could be looking into another large rear fanged colubrid, is the False Water Cobra, for a male a 6ft viv is an OK size. Mine is a complete softy, I know they can be temperamental so considerations need to be taken (as with dealing with all rear-fanged snakes; even hognoses... in my opinion!!) but again solid snakes.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Pirate7 said:


> They're great snakes! I think they should be more popular, but at the same time... aboreal and rear fanged, that would probably put many people off.
> Ha, that's insane, mine do the same with large weiners, I might try chicks next time. They're never satisfied either.
> 
> Another species I would say could be looking into another large rear fanged colubrid, is the False Water Cobra, for a male a 6ft viv is an OK size. Mine is a complete softy, I know they can be temperamental so considerations need to be taken (as with dealing with all rear-fanged snakes; even hognoses... in my opinion!!) but again solid snakes.


Falsies are nice, but do pack a punch. I had a pair, bought as hatchlings.
When I got them home one managed to nip a finger. That hurt for several hours!
Mangroves are another very nice species but need a space where they won't get disturbed.


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## Pirate7 (Apr 7, 2008)

ian14 said:


> Falsies are nice, but do pack a punch. I had a pair, bought as hatchlings.
> When I got them home one managed to nip a finger. That hurt for several hours!
> Mangroves are another very nice species but need a space where they won't get disturbed.


Falsies are amazing! Yeah they do, mine has only tagged me once as I stupidly used the wrong tweezers when feeding. Throbbing for ages.

Mangroves are beautiful species, I am lucky, stupid, mental, emotionally scarred have 3. Absolute beauts but the biggest pain in the arse. Not to sound douchebaggy, but I don't really recommend them to anyone unless they are prepared to sit with a snake with food in its mouth for hours and for the snake to spit it out and you're back to square one. My dendro dendro has been the biggest headache, she's 18 months old and I am still assisting - no usual tricks have worked thus far. My gemmicintia and melonata have always been dream feeders, a few assist feeds and then as they are getting the last food item down I would stick another one in their mouth and they'd start to eat that.
Unless of course you spend the money on a well established sub-adult/adult who're constant feeders. Then you're golden.


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## spigotbush (Feb 8, 2019)

Spades said:


> Our house gets VERY humid in the winter, to the point that it’s already worrying me a little with the corn. I do run a dehumidifier for that reason. I don’t tend to struggle with maintaining temps in any of my setups though.


same here, i dont have central heating so the temps can fluctuate when the fire gets lit. which seems to lend itself to higher humidity in winter. i brumate my stuff though so i dont worry about it. for a temperate species it will get more humid this time of year anyway, its a big reason i love temperate species. not saying that more specialised species arent amazing, but personally i prefer to have a species that can handle a wide bracket of temps/humidity. it just makes my life less stressful, i know i am a worrier and i think a more delicate tropical or arid species would be a psychological nightmare for me right now.

as for the ruskie and your partner, you may be surprised. i am the only one in my family who is into reptiles. i got a corn snake and everyone was ok with it, but werent unduly fussed. they would check in on him sometimes but didnt worry much. i got the ruskie and suddenly everyone was always coming in to see what he was up to. he is always out and watching and is a huge presence in the house, nearly as much as the dog. if i had to only have one pet and get rid of the rest, not just reptiles but pets in general, it would be the ruskie over everything else. 




ian14 said:


> You could also consider one of the Asian beauty snakes. I've owned Thai and Vietnamese Blues, again, active, nice temperaments


i heard the beauties were prone to being rather defensive and flighty. is that just one of those things that has been perpetuated through wonky care and not thinking about how to approach them? 
i know some species can get a bad rep because they are more relaxed when offered particular environments. like green snakes being more visible when there is a lot of cover to hide in but problematic if there is too little cover.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

> i heard the beauties were prone to being rather defensive and flighty. is that just one of those things that has been perpetuated through wonky care and not thinking about how to approach them?


My personal experience is that they are calm and relaxed, certainly the Thai and VBB.
Radiated ratsnakes, on the other hand, now they are VERY defensive!


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## Malum Argenteum (5 mo ago)

A bit different than the suggestions so far: Costa Rican Black milk. They are docile, temperature and humidity tolerant, and can be diurnally active. They're perhaps on the small side of what you're looking for (~6 feet), but hit a lot of the other bases.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Malum Argenteum said:


> A bit different than the suggestions so far: Costa Rican Black milk. They are docile, temperature and humidity tolerant, and can be diurnally active. They're perhaps on the small side of what you're looking for (~6 feet), but hit a lot of the other bases.


But they're very hard to source here in the UK. Even the more common milks have become scarce here in the past 10 years.


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## Spades (3 mo ago)

Thanks for all the input everyone! Can’t say I’m any closer to a decision as I’m now undecided between Russians, European Four-lined snakes, Aesculapians, and Taiwanese beauties. If only I had the space and time for more!


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