# Do You Ever Feel Guilty



## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

I just wondered if any of you enthusiasts feel guilty about having animals banged up in cages their whole lives,years ago we use to use the excuse it was to captive breed instead of wild caught,whats the excuse now.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

We provide a safe, secure, stress free environment, without fear of being eaten, attacked, starving to death, without fear of our habitat being destroyed... with the possibility of getting laid and fulfilling breeding urges...

Many CB snakes exhibit very little fear at all, compared to the instant flight of most snakes in the wild. Is a life without fear, full of food and good lovin' really that bad just because our house is a bit smaller?


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

animalsbeebee said:


> I just wondered if any of you enthusiasts feel guilty about having animals banged up in cages their whole lives,years ago we use to use the excuse it was to captive breed instead of wild caught,whats the excuse now.



Erm....no.


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## Miranda (Dec 25, 2006)

Athravan said:


> We provide a safe, secure, stress free environment, without fear of being eaten, attacked, starving to death, without fear of our habitat being destroyed... with the possibility of getting laid and fulfilling breeding urges...
> 
> Many CB snakes exhibit very little fear at all, compared to the instant flight of most snakes in the wild. Is a life without fear, full of food and good lovin' really that bad just because our house is a bit smaller?


Totally agree!
When people tell me off about stuff like that at school, i just think 'what do you know about snakes, to tell me im killng mine"


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## SuperTed (Apr 19, 2007)

Captive bred animals depending on the gen really would know no difference its the only lifestyle they know, they are guaranteed food and water and a clean pleasent place to live might seem a bit stupid looking at it that way but thats how i see it. :2thumb:


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*prison*

I wonder if you asked prisoners the same question,your warm,you have a roof over your head,no worries,whether they would agree,


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## Miranda (Dec 25, 2006)

animalsbeebee said:


> I wonder if you asked prisoners the same question,your warm,you have a roof over your head,no worries,whether they would agree,


No worries?
I hardly tihnk being in prison is no worries.


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## Jamie (Nov 18, 2007)

Nope,

Tarantulas are ambush predators and in the wild only live within a square metre of there burrow (approx obviously!). Its only the males who wander in the last moult of their lives seeking out a female to have his wicked way with!

In captivity they are not intelligent to know any different and most (I hope) keepers provide the same enviroment to that of there natural habitat, allowing them to live out there lives naturally using the instincts that are built in genetically.

Also....what Athravan said!


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## perthchickie (Mar 15, 2008)

Prisoners on the other hand have been brought up in society so they can compare.



animalsbeebee said:


> I wonder if you asked prisoners the same question,your warm,you have a roof over your head,no worries,whether they would agree,


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

animalsbeebee said:


> I wonder if you asked prisoners the same question,your warm,you have a roof over your head,no worries,whether they would agree,


You cannot compare sentient beings with animals. Perhaps if you offered someone in a third world country who has lived in fear of civil war, rape, beatings, abuse, starvation, disease... whether they would like to live in a compound where they had everything they needed, perhaps they would take it for that safety and security... and that is humans we are talking about!

You cannot compare animals to humans. CB animals do not know any different. They act on instinct. If the instincts are fulfilled they are content. If the environment is correct, if there is food, if their urges are fulfilled, what difference does it make?

What are you arguments then that snakes are not happy in captivity and would be happier being dumped into a world they know nothing of, where they have no fight or survival instincts because they've been brought up in captivity?

How would you feel if someone picked you up, dumped you into the rainforest and said - hunt for your own food, find your own water, find your own safe place to sleep, there will be things trying to kill you, chase you, you will never be safe again.. good luck surviving. Would you say, yes please.. release me?


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> I wonder if you asked prisoners the same question,your warm,you have a roof over your head,no worries,whether they would agree,


you like many people are confusing animals and humans, animals do not have human emotions its easy to do, but you need to realise that they are far from us when it comes to thinking and emotions.


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## Miranda (Dec 25, 2006)

Athravan said:


> You cannot compare sentient beings with animals. Perhaps if you offered someone in a third world country who has lived in fear of civil war, rape, beatings, abuse, starvation, disease... whether they would like to live in a compound where they had everything they needed, perhaps they would take it for that safety and security... and that is humans we are talking about!
> 
> You cannot compare animals to humans. CB animals do not know any different. They act on instinct. If the instincts are fulfilled they are content. If the environment is correct, if there is food, if their urges are fulfilled, what difference does it make?
> 
> ...


Another briliant post form christie.


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## Siman (Apr 12, 2008)

animalsbeebee said:


> I wonder if you asked prisoners the same question,your warm,you have a roof over your head,no worries,whether they would agree,


You've obviously never been to jail. 

Most of the people who i know who have been are constantly doing things to get back in because life's easy there.

As a rule most people want an easy life, if they thought that everything could be done for them (food cooked, house cleaned etc) they would take it. Its no different really.


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*tart it up*

It does not matter what reasons you give to justify your actions,is it right,i cannot believe none of you ever have a pang of guilt if you do not now i can guarantee you will one day.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> It does not matter what reasons you give to justify your actions,is it right,i cannot believe none of you ever have a pang of guilt if you do not now i can guarantee you will one day.


 
you come on a reptile forum and start making comments that are verging on anti so your not going to get the responce your looking for, I see no reason to feel guilty if the animal is in an appropriate enclosure given space and everything it needs, but explaining that to someone that is against it isnt going to happen.


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## Jamie (Nov 18, 2007)

The only time I feel guilty is when I pop a locust in to one of my spider tanks and it wanders straight towards the spiders burrow.......!!


Then a few seconds later I realise its just the circle of life!!


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## carlo69 (Apr 12, 2007)

*my turn*

hi i would love to be dumped in the rain forest anyone offering that lifestyle for me ready and willing to accept, and prison is a bad place to be ,not a fun place having your liberty taken from you is never good . and just because an animal doesn't turn round and say i want to be free doesn't mean it doesn't .I keep reptiles myself but i still see that a valid point is being made by animalsbeebee and however pig headed you want to be about it the best place for anything is the place from where it originates naturally


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## Siman (Apr 12, 2008)

carlo69 said:


> hi i would love to be dumped in the rain forest anyone offering that lifestyle for me ready and willing to accept, and prison is a bad place to be ,not a fun place having your liberty taken from you is never good . and just because an animal doesn't turn round and say i want to be free doesn't mean it doesn't .I keep reptiles myself but i still see that a valid point is being made by animalsbeebee and however pig headed you want to be about it the best place for anything is the place from where it originates naturally


I highly doubt you would actually love that life, you think you would, perhaps only to prove a point but i doubt you ACTUALLY would.

You say thats the "best place" for it, but how do you honestly know? Is the best place for a human who has to endure famine, illness and other things found in third world countries the place they originate from?


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## Hamish (Jun 17, 2007)

carlo69 said:


> hi i would love to be dumped in the rain forest anyone offering that lifestyle for me ready and willing to accept, and prison is a bad place to be ,not a fun place having your liberty taken from you is never good . and just because an animal doesn't turn round and say i want to be free doesn't mean it doesn't .I keep reptiles myself but i still see that a valid point is being made by animalsbeebee and however pig headed you want to be about it the best place for anything is the place from where it originates naturally


does that include all domesticated animals and humans on the run from dictators or war torn countries? 
is your answer to release all animals and tell people to sod off and go home?
i see a flaw in your quote!

p.s. if what you say is truley how you feel then you should not be a hypocrite and stop keeping pets, it would give you peace of mind i am sure.


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

I think its easy to humanise reptiles but i would say all herpers will do the best they can for their reptiles. To give a few examples I have balls which will not feed in a fair sized tub but will eat happily in a smaller tub each week. 

If humanising we would say oh its too small but the snake does not think so and is happy to eat there CB reptiles have little fear and example is a corn being dumped on my step around a flower pot 4 people came to my door and only the 4th noticed and picked him up and took him in.

I have wild 25 year old pythons who have spent thier lives with me and I beleive its us knowing our reptiles needs which keeps them happy and healthy.

p xx


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## Jamie (Nov 18, 2007)

I dont think we can keep comparing animals to humans.

But surely wasn't every pet we have originally from the wild? Cats, dogs, fish, rabbits...etc etc??? Should there be a case for these also?

I'm an animal fanatic and volunteer at a wildlife park which was founded as a recue centre, and is still run as one, it maybe open to the public but no animal there has been bought. They are all rescues and un-wanted. I would like nothing more then to see animals in there natural habitat, but the captive bred animals that you refer to are kept (by most) in excellent conditions catering for their every need in the safety of a well sized viv/tank/cage. These animals never seem stressed and are happy to be there.

I'm sure everyone who comments on this thread would feel different if they saw an adult beardie in a tiny viv for example. But in general these animals are well catered for.


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## Jamie (Nov 18, 2007)

carlo69 said:


> and just because an animal doesn't turn round and say i want to be free


To be honest though, if I came home from work and one of my spiders actually said that.....I'd probably adhere to his/her wishes!!

and then sit down for a few moments until the voices in my head stopped!! :lol2:


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## quizicalkat (Jul 7, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> I just wondered if any of you enthusiasts feel guilty about having animals banged up in cages their whole lives,years ago we use to use the excuse it was to captive breed instead of wild caught,whats the excuse now.


NOPE :whistling2:


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*good parents*

I would imagine in your eyes you do look after these animals well,what happens when you have a child born in a cellar ,not able to express natural behaviour,they are screwed up.I never said you should not keep animals i am not anti far from it,have had one of best collections in uk many years ago,i just wondered how defensive you would be just being asked a simple question.When antis do ask why you keep these animals your answers are shit.


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## carlo69 (Apr 12, 2007)

*and*

Is all this overly defensive behaviour linked to guilt i wonder Hmmmmmm:idea: _I think so........I think the simple answer is we keep these animals for our own enjoyment not theres , We made the choices not them they live the life we give them not the one they would choose to live ._


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## htf666 (Jun 23, 2007)

Do the people who keep chamelions feel guilty for extending the lives of their animals from a measly one year in the wild to five in captivity?
Do the keepers of Crested Geckos feel ashamed for saving what was very nearly an extinct species and making it into a very commonly kept animal?
Do I regret forcing my snakes to live in clean healthy surroundings which are mite free, with access to vetinary care, where they seem to want to breed prolifically without any predators to bother them.
Most importantly, after reading the replies on here don't you regret asking such a dumb question on a forum of reptile lovers when just a moments though would have supplied you with the answer? Harry


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## bendigo (Jan 28, 2008)

animalsbeebee said:


> I would imagine in your eyes you do look after these animals well,what happens when you have a child born in a cellar ,not able to express natural behaviour,they are screwed up.I never said you should not keep animals i am not anti far from it,have had one of best collections in uk many years ago,i just wondered how defensive you would be just being asked a simple question.When antis do ask why you keep these animals your answers are shit.


 
kept in a cellar? didnt that exact thing happen recently, and to be honest they all said each person came out of there and is doing fine...
anyway,your right, the habitats arent completely natural, infact ill go dump some birds of prey in my leos viv as thats whats in there natural habitat! of course the majority of animals are kept in the best way they can, these animals have been studied for years so we CAN recreate there natural habitat!

and as for our answers always being :censor: as you say there really not, antis are just always poking holes and refusing to listen to others point of view, if the animals are well cared for and make the people happy why shouldnt we have em.

housing, electricity, hot water. these things wouldnt be our natural habitat but i dont see you in a hury to give that up


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## linda.t (Sep 28, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> I would imagine in your eyes you do look after these animals well,what happens when you have a child born in a cellar ,not able to express natural behaviour,they are screwed up.I never said you should not keep animals i am not anti far from it,have had one of best collections in uk many years ago,i just wondered how defensive you would be just being asked a simple question.When antis do ask why you keep these animals your answers are shit.


so u have no pets what so ever then.


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## Siman (Apr 12, 2008)

animalsbeebee said:


> I would imagine in your eyes you do look after these animals well,what happens when you have a child born in a cellar ,not able to express natural behaviour,they are screwed up.I never said you should not keep animals i am not anti far from it,have had one of best collections in uk many years ago,i just wondered how defensive you would be just being asked a simple question.When antis do ask why you keep these animals your answers are shit.


1. Less of the swearing please
2. Thats a ridiculous statement, and your ignoring all replies and just spouting your own opinion so whats the point in this thread?



carlo69 said:


> Is all this overly defensive behaviour linked to guilt i wonder Hmmmmmm:idea: _I think so........I think the simple answer is we keep these animals for our own enjoyment not theres , We made the choices not them they live the life we give them not the one they would choose to live ._


Who are you to say what they would choose? End of the day no one can win the argument because its opinion based, people who keep reptiles keep them to prolong the reptiles life and for their own enjoyment, is that a bad thing? Would reptiles prefer to live a lot less, have to hunt for themselves and sometimes not even find food, face the harsh realities of life outside or would they rather be looked after?


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## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

animalsbeebee said:


> I would imagine in your eyes you do look after these animals well,what happens when you have a child born in a cellar ,not able to express natural behaviour,they are screwed up.I never said you should not keep animals i am not anti far from it,have had one of best collections in uk many years ago,i just wondered how defensive you would be just being asked a simple question.When antis do ask why you keep these animals your answers are shit.


i for one can see the reasoning behind your question, but as has been said we cannot compare reptiles to humans, they are for the most part mentaly very basic creatures...snakes for example (my main passion) in the wild even the largest boids tend to live very solitary confined lives even when they do have the opportunity of miles and miles of habitat! most will find a good solid safe hideaway and stay there except to drink feed and look for potential mates...captivity (in well looked after animals) provides them with optimum conditions temperature wise, and a steady supply of food and water and also in a lot of cases the opportunity to spread there genes, snakes are quite simple creatures (mentaly) IMO and as long as provided with the same requirements they have in the wild, a safe retreat, a steady food and water supply optimum environmental conditions and the opportunity to reproduce then they are absolutely no worse off than in the wild! as has been said at least in captivity they dont have to deal with predators, parasites, starvation pollution and other issues...i am all for snakes in their natural habitat but i also feel that as long as catered for properly a snake is CERTAINLY no worse off in captivity than the wild, and especialy in the case of captive bred individuals.


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## carlo69 (Apr 12, 2007)

*Harry*

Harry do you feel dumb your answer is ridiculous its all about how keeping those animals makes you feel , does extending a life make a life better , and for the person who mentioned the children brought up in a cellar they are all in mental health institutions if that means they are ok now then so be it


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## bendigo (Jan 28, 2008)

my corn snake was given the option of living free, his owners dumped him in a broken viv, did he slither off into the bushes? no, the poor thing stayed put in his viv for 4 days, scared of the outside world and probably hoping someone would come along and get him.


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## reptile_dude (May 31, 2008)

well said athraven, well said.


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*freedom*

Just because you can get a small percentage of animals to live longer in a cage than in the wild does not mean its right,i can not believe you are all so blinkered in your views,what about the hundreds of thousands that die,and you most certainly can not recreate the wild in a 3ft viv,i know to survive you only need the basics,and that is all it is doing-existing!


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## linda.t (Sep 28, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> Just because you can get a small percentage of animals to live longer in a cage than in the wild does not mean its right,i can not believe you are all so blinkered in your views,what about the hundreds of thousands that die,and you most certainly can not recreate the wild in a 3ft viv,i know to survive you only need the basics,and that is all it is doing-existing!


aren't we all only existing.


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> It does not matter what reasons you give to justify your actions,is it right,i cannot believe none of you ever have a pang of guilt if you do not now i can guarantee you will one day.


Do you keep any pets at all a dog a cat maybe?
Well if you do you should feel guilty dogs are pack animals they should be kept like that outside in all weathers etc etc the rspca would have a field day if we kept pets the way they live in the wild!


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## bendigo (Jan 28, 2008)

animalsbeebee said:


> Just because you can get a small percentage of animals to live longer in a cage than in the wild does not mean its right,i can not believe you are all so blinkered in your views,what about the hundreds of thousands that die,and you most certainly can not recreate the wild in a 3ft viv,i know to survive you only need the basics,and that is all it is doing-existing!


 
but as has been said snakes and other reptiles often only stay in a smaller area anyway! of course hundreds die due to poor research, but think of the hundreds of thousaned that are now thriving due to good reserach and care, also you say we only provide the basics, well apart from heat, food, water, habitat, breeding oppurtuniteis what else do you think they need/want?


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> I would imagine in your eyes you do look after these animals well,what happens when you have a child born in a cellar ,not able to express natural behaviour,they are screwed up.I never said you should not keep animals i am not anti far from it,have had one of best collections in uk many years ago,i just wondered how defensive you would be just being asked a simple question.When antis do ask why you keep these animals your answers are shit.


USED to have.
not now how come? Start feeling guilty for keeping them in vivs?
Did all you could do for the species you kept?


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## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

animalsbeebee said:


> ,i can not believe you are all so blinkered in your views


but surely you are being a hypocrit (sp) there? as you are obviously the same?? and you are trying to say your opinion is right and ours is wrong...i think it is a case of two opposing views believing 100% in THEIR opinions! so that comment is really true for yourself also......


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## bendigo (Jan 28, 2008)

you say our anwsers are :censor:, and youve kept animals yourself so obviously condon it, so what anwsers would you give if someone questioned why you keep/kepted em?


seems like this was a lil test to me lol are we being prepared for war here?


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

We have to stop comparing the wild to our door step, 
They are not in the wild they never will be the whole time we bring them in to our homes.
What gets me is people that want a "natural" substrate like sand for lizards that in the wild live on CLAY!


Guilty never, 
Do i feel guilty about giving our pets food every day knowing a cricket has to die for it to eat no, do i feel guilty for feeding my snakes mice that have been killed no.
Do i feel guilty that they dont express natural behaviour NO because they do, all of our leos hunt all of our snakes strike they all express naturall behaviour. 
You go ahead an stick a royal in a 12ft viv we shall see how long the poor thing lasts when you pop in a live mouse see how happy it is when it never comes out of its hide. 
Incase you didnt know its against the law to cause un due harm to any living animal.
So you can bang on about natural as much as you like and guilt to go with it but is wont wash on here.


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## carlo69 (Apr 12, 2007)

*too true*

Well said animalsbeebee , I would also like to say not once did i say there is anything wrong in keeping animals for your enjoyment , I look after my animals as best as can be expected and get loads of enjoyment out of them .but look at them sometimes and think to myself wouldn't they be better off in there natural habitat . YES THEY WOULD !!!


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*because we want to*

So your answer to any anti is i keep this BECAUSE I WANT TO,no wonder you get ripped to pieces over it ,years ago most of the shows were stopped because you can not fight you corner with a sensible reason as to why you keep things,not one of you has suggested being part of a rare breeding project,or scientific research,you keep them for your own selfish reasons.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> So your answer to any anti is i keep this BECAUSE I WANT TO,no wonder you get ripped to pieces over it ,years ago most of the shows were stopped because you can not fight you corner with a sensible reason as to why you keep things,not one of you has suggested being part of a rare breeding project,or scientific research,you keep them for your own selfish reasons.


have you even read the thread or are you stuck in your own bubble?


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> So your answer to any anti is i keep this BECAUSE I WANT TO,no wonder you get ripped to pieces over it ,years ago most of the shows were stopped because you can not fight you corner with a sensible reason as to why you keep things,not one of you has suggested being part of a rare breeding project,or scientific research,you keep them for your own selfish reasons.


Why do you keep meerkats?
Why did you keep primmates?
Why do you keep pigs?
Oh and you want a dog too well i hope you have more at home for keeping that one company and that you also have a good enough reason for keeping a dog ?
Oh and a kitten to boot.

How on earth can you come on here and start shouting your mouth off telling us we dont have good enough reasons for us to keep pets when you want things like that?


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## Jamie (Nov 18, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> So your answer to any anti is i keep this BECAUSE I WANT TO,no wonder you get ripped to pieces over it ,years ago most of the shows were stopped because you can not fight you corner with a sensible reason as to why you keep things,not one of you has suggested being part of a rare breeding project,or scientific research,you keep them for your own selfish reasons.


What planet are you on?

There must be over 20 reasons why we keep these animals on this thread and not one of them is "because I want to"


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> mean its right,i can not believe you are all so blinkered in your views


 
:lol2::lol2::lol2: that is your most hypocritical comment yet


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

htf666 said:


> Do the people who keep chamelions feel guilty for extending the lives of their animals from a measly one year in the wild to five in captivity?
> Do the keepers of Crested Geckos feel ashamed for saving what was very nearly an extinct species and making it into a very commonly kept animal?
> Do I regret forcing my snakes to live in clean healthy surroundings which are mite free, with access to vetinary care, where they seem to want to breed prolifically without any predators to bother them.
> Most importantly, after reading the replies on here don't you regret asking such a dumb question on a forum of reptile lovers when just a moments though would have supplied you with the answer? Harry





animalsbeebee said:


> So your answer to any anti is i keep this BECAUSE I WANT TO,no wonder you get ripped to pieces over it ,years ago most of the shows were stopped because you can not fight you corner with a sensible reason as to why you keep things,not one of you has suggested being part of a rare breeding project,or scientific research,you keep them for your own selfish reasons.



See the first quote are you actually looking at the same thread?


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## carlo69 (Apr 12, 2007)

*Bubble*

Sorry i am bored in my little bubble now ,I will inform you all of the next wind up topic next week at the same time , please tune in to GOT YOUR HEART PUMPING on channel RFUK at 8pm on friday and its good night from me


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## bendigo (Jan 28, 2008)

animalsbeebee said:


> So your answer to any anti is i keep this BECAUSE I WANT TO,no wonder you get ripped to pieces over it ,years ago most of the shows were stopped because you can not fight you corner with a sensible reason as to why you keep things,not one of you has suggested being part of a rare breeding project,or scientific research,you keep them for your own selfish reasons.


 

sorry, but i dont keep mine for scientific research, i find most of the reserch done thats not done in its natural habitat is cruel, now im not saying all the research is but alot of it can be.
i dont keep mine as a rare breeding project - i cant afford a rare breeding project! and if i could afford a rare breeding project sometime in the future i would damn sure hope i got some experience and knowledge from the ones i have now!


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*you bit*

Just a bit of fun, sad and lonely, wanted someone to talk to,never let out of my room,ha ha ha .


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## quizicalkat (Jul 7, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> So your answer to any anti is i keep this BECAUSE I WANT TO,no wonder you get ripped to pieces over it ,years ago most of the shows were stopped because you can not fight you corner with a sensible reason as to why you keep things,not one of you has suggested being part of a rare breeding project,or scientific research,you keep them for your own selfish reasons.


yes well done! all animals that are kept in captivity are kept for our own, selfish reasons you are quite correct - and, unless you are a budist,vegan and have no pets - at the very least, then you are a very hypocritical person.

If you are a budist, vegan and have no pets then thats great - I applaud the strength of your beliefs but I still think you've come to the wrong place:bash:


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Kat they had one of the best collections of animals ever in the uk many moons ago :bash:
Although they now want meerkats and have kept primates also after a dog and a kitten oh and they have pigs!
All animals that have been domesticated by us the evil humans!


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## Jamie (Nov 18, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> Just a bit of fun, sad and lonely, wanted someone to talk to,never let out of my room,ha ha ha .


and you shall remain that way!


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## carlo69 (Apr 12, 2007)

*ha ha ha LMAO*

:lolsign::lolsign::roll2:LMAO HA HA HA :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

animalsbeebee said:


> So your answer to any anti is i keep this BECAUSE I WANT TO,no wonder you get ripped to pieces over it ,years ago most of the shows were stopped because you can not fight you corner with a sensible reason as to why you keep things,not one of you has suggested being part of a rare breeding project,or scientific research,you keep them for your own selfish reasons.


is keeping pets all about conservation and scientific research? i think not! and yes there are LOTS of keepers out there who breed etc myself included but that is not my main reason for keeping! i keep snakes because i enjoy them! i find them fascinating and rewarding! call me selfish if you like! in all honesty your views are your own and you are entitled to them! as are we....but you my friend seem to be the one on the defensive here! its a matter of PERSONAL opinion why we choose to keep reptiles, and yes there are many who keep them for the wrong reasons and there are many that suffer...but i feel the majority of people on this forum all keep for the love and respect of reptiles in general...at the end of the day i stand by my statements and believe that as long as they are catered for properly reptiles in captivity on the whole are certainly NO worse off in captivity than in the wild.....as with anything in life there will be people who have things for the wrong reasons and this doesnt just include reptiles! this covers almost EVERYTHING!! from a stick insect to a child! but in MY opinion which i am more than entitled to, reptiles on the whole are perfectly content in captivity when CB and catered for correctly...


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*Jake*

Jake at the wildlife park knows me well,he will tell you i know my stuff,lived across field from him for many years,was offered the tigers before he got them from broxbourne.was only having a wind up ,got you all going did it not,it use to pee me off big time.


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> Jake at the wildlife park knows me well,he will tell you i know my stuff,lived across field from him for many years,was offered the tigers before he got them from broxbourne.was only having a wind up ,got you all going did it not,it use to pee me off big time.


Its people like you that give the antis ammo to shoot the decent keepers down with!
Do you honestly think its funny just to wind people up?
And annoy them?
If so you wont be here very long.


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## Jamie (Nov 18, 2007)

I think you 2 need to get out more!!


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*ammo*

What ammo would i have given that was not already there.


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## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

animalsbeebee said:


> Jake at the wildlife park knows me well,he will tell you i know my stuff,lived across field from him for many years,was offered the tigers before he got them from broxbourne.was only having a wind up ,got you all going did it not,it use to pee me off big time.


 
someone with your mentality got offered tigers?? (i find that hard to believe!) but if it is true thank God you never got them!


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## carlo69 (Apr 12, 2007)

*Ha Ha Ha*

SOme people not got no sense of humour .


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*not mental*

How dare you suggest i am mental,that is just not fair.


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## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

carlo69 said:


> SOme people not got no sense of humour .


i dont find being called a selfish twat who imprisons animals to their suffering amusing strangely enough!!


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

carlo69 said:


> SOme people not got no sense of humour .


No people have a sence of humour here we all do there are just some things we dont find funny!
Its like asking telling someone with children that they have no right to have them because there are to many homeless people in the counrty!

We have faught the antis for years and have even bigger things to battle against in the future making fun of things like our rights to keep reptiles will not wash well with a bunch of people that are passionate about the hobby.


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*antis*

I was fighting antis 20yrs ago,dont be so serious,and i never called anyone a twat.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

animalsbeebee said:


> Just because you can get a small percentage of animals to live longer in a cage than in the wild does not mean its right,


Doesn't mean that being in a cage is wrong either.



> i can not believe you are all so blinkered in your views,what about the hundreds of thousands that die


Funny enough, hundreds of thousands of animals die in the wild every day too. Out of any given clutch of corn snake eggs, MAYBE one will survive to breed in adulthood (and may die of eggbinding or predation afterwards!). In captivity, more survive those fragile first few months - and have the chance at veterinary care and a distinct lack of predators in their homes.



> ,and you most certainly can not recreate the wild in a 3ft viv,i know to survive you only need the basics,and that is all it is doing-existing!


Go on, give me the choice between living my life in a cage where my needs are met and I am protected... or having to compete for resources and work for them, even if I have choices.

Please.

Give me the cage.

I would choose security over freedom - and I am a sapient animal that has the cognitive capacity to understand an abstract concept like "freedom".

Snakes are not sapient. They understand prey availability, predators, mate availability, resource competition and that's it. 

And no, I don't feel guilty for keeping my snakes in cages.

You know what I feel guilty about? That people didn't speak up when they chose to FORCE Keiko the killer whale to go back to the wild... and resulted in the death of a fellow sapient who just wanted to be around the creatures he grew up with. He was happier when he was kept in the bay in Iceland... and he died because he preferred to be with his former captors, people, than migrate into the great unknown.


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> I was fighting antis 20yrs ago,dont be so serious,and i never called anyone a twat.


Thats the problem you WAS
past tense meaning you no longer are! Either that or you gave up because you couldnt be bothered to fight a losing battle.

No disrespect you may have been a good keeper, but at the end of the day that 20yr old fight has moved on a lot since then. 
Gone are the days where people dont have to worry about what will happen to their loved pets if antis get their way!
And people like you with comments like that just add fuel to a burning fire thats already out of hand.
Do you think antis dont read these forums? its the biggest in the uk for crying out loud
I can see the head lines of one of their memos now
"Reptile keeper feels guilty for keeping reptiles!"


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*eggbound*

Most snakes get egg bound because of infertile eggs,i dont think this would be high motality rate in wild.


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## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

animalsbeebee said:


> I was fighting antis 20yrs ago,dont be so serious,and i never called anyone a twat.


i started keeping reptiles 21 odd years ago and my dad had kept them for a while before that and there was very little anti reptile keeping back then! in fact it was a pretty small community of keepers back then with very little input from people uninterested in them except the fact they thought we were a bit odd!...the REAL anti threat is now...and threads like this do nothing other than fuel the fire IMO....if it really is a "joke" then i personaly dont find it funny! and yes i do have a VERY good sense of humour...just not when it implies my lifelong passion is selfish and cruel!


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## Jamie (Nov 18, 2007)

this thread could get nasty now!! adlock:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

well you certainly caused a stir il give you that :lol2:


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*rubbish*

Thats a croc,the real up in reptiles was about15 yrs ago and they had antis outside big shows,is clifford warwick still the main anti man,half of you probably never heard of him.last show at pickets lock was about 15yrs ago .use to be biggest venue,dont suppose most were around then.


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## Andy b 1 (May 14, 2007)

i feel sorry for the animals bieng treated badly, and the ones in small conditions not right food etc


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

You seriously are funny now.
What makes you think that snakes dont get egg bound in the wild?
Egg binding is cause because for some reason or another then reptile can not pass the eggs be it due to the reptile being to young or what ever reason.
So do you honestly think that say a 2 ft corn in the wild will not become gravid thats if its been able to live its life up until that point then go off and find a mate with out being eaten.


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*what reason*

What reason then for being egg bound,age has nothing to do with it ,not bred many snakes i take it.


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## hogboy (Aug 22, 2006)

animalsbeebee said:


> Thats a croc,the real up in reptiles was about15 yrs ago and they had antis outside big shows,is clifford warwick still the main anti man,half of you probably never heard of him.last show at pickets lock was about 15yrs ago .use to be biggest venue,dont suppose most were around then.


I thought some of your arguments sounded a bit 'warwickesque'
Most captive snakes die egg bound ?
According to cw no reptiles live any longer than a year in captivity ?
Q have been keeping reptiles since 1982, and have seen very major changes to the way they are kept, all to the bettr imo.
I cant help thinking you are batting for ole cliffys team ?


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## bendigo (Jan 28, 2008)

animalsbeebee said:


> What reason then for being egg bound,age has nothing to do with it ,not bred many snakes i take it.


 
i think age does have something to do with it!!

maybe you guys didnt think it did 20 + years ago but as has been said, our research has been improved and we have moved on!!


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## fatratsandcheesekk (May 18, 2008)

i dont feel guilt at all my rats have a manction and eat better than us checkers has a wonderfull viv and is always looked after and if anyor them get ill their straight down the vet even if it means we have to go without something in the next weeks


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## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

animalsbeebee said:


> Thats a croc,the real up in reptiles was about15 yrs ago and they had antis outside big shows,is clifford warwick still the main anti man,half of you probably never heard of him.last show at pickets lock was about 15yrs ago .use to be biggest venue,dont suppose most were around then.


not a croc at all! i never went to many shows in all honesty so i cant comment on that! just the odd local show close to us...but there was NEVER any REAL threat to the keeping of reptiles as far as i was aware...and no i never heard of clifford warwick, but as i say we didnt travel far in those days it was more a case of meetings every 2 months and a breeders meet and sale once a year localy to us...but my dad knew a few of the bigger breeders/keepers within a reasonable distance of us of the time, Frank Schofield and Chris Matteson spring to mind and there was never ANY talk of a threat to the hobby back then that i can remember...
i was only around 7 or 8 at the time, but i do remember very well the meetings etc and visiting Franks and Chris`s and dont remember there being any talk of threats to the hobby...


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> What reason then for being egg bound,age has nothing to do with it ,not bred many snakes i take it.


Age and weight have a hell of a lot to do with it 
You seriously need to do some research on the animals your talking about before coming on here and telling us we are wrong!

Yes ive heard of clifford warwick he did a piece on Hamm in march the guy is a first class moron!
Another one who dont do any research on the places or animals he comments on.


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*expert*

You always get a pet keeper who thinks they are experts,if you knew what i got would not be called anti,told you it was to get a reaction from you all,some have took it to heart,sorry ,I was one of the best keepers just diverted my attention on to mammals instead,dont believe in keeping 100s of animals if not catered for properly,time as well as conditions.


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

Shut up, who do you think you are coming on here saying "your cruel to animals... blah, blah, blah"... get back to your sad little life and leave people alone... most of the animals in captivity would not survive in the wild because they are morphs and are used to being fed food that doesn't bite back...


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> You always get a pet keeper who thinks they are experts,if you knew what i got would not be called anti,told you it was to get a reaction from you all,some have took it to heart,sorry ,I was one of the best keepers just diverted my attention on to mammals instead,dont believe in keeping 100s of animals if not catered for properly,time as well as conditions.


So are you saying that people that keep lots of reptiles dont care for them correctly ?
LMAO we have 100+ reptiles so ill take that comment as directed at me.
Ill have you know EVERY single one of our reptiles are handled well fed and we have plenty of space
my daughter is the youngest member and breeder on this forum, we encourage children to get in to reptiles as they are the future of keeping.

I dont believe anyone of us is an expert EVER we all have more to learn and always will.
You keep saying you WERE one of the best keepers and diverted your attention to mammals, and also primates i take it?
Which with the way the current law stands with regard to the AWA (i take it you know what that is) you should understand more than most why it is not smart or funny to come on to a reptile forum and say things like that


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*Chris mattison*

Some of my snakes chris had never seen the colour morphs of,some were the only in uk that there are still alive tropidophis melanurus,bright orange with yellow tails.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

animalsbeebee said:


> You always get a pet keeper who thinks they are experts,if you knew what i got would not be called anti,told you it was to get a reaction from you all,some have took it to heart,sorry ,I was one of the best keepers just diverted my attention on to mammals instead,dont believe in keeping 100s of animals if not catered for properly,time as well as conditions.


No offense but you're being a bit insulting, you do not know who any of these people are you are talking to, this forum has pet keepers, it has herpetologists, reptile shop owners, zoo workers, you have not been here long enough to know the experience or knowledge of every single person to judge people as "pet keepers who think they are experts". 

You may have been one of the best keepers, you may not have been, who knows, considering you're not using your real name, no one does.... it really means absolutely nothing here, here you will have to start from scratch and earn your respect from the other members, people will take you at the value you come across in your posts. If you come across as being anti-reptile keeping, then that is how people will label you. Something to think about.


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*Dwa*

Is that what you meant,have had one for 23yrs ,never had a problem,two different councils,always very obliging.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

animalsbeebee said:


> ,told you it was to get a reaction from you all,


Ahh, so you're 'stirring for the sake of 'stirring.

I still have no guilt over keeping my pets in my home.
I'd feel guilty if I set them free.


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> Some of my snakes chris had never seen the colour morphs of,some were the only in uk that there are still alive tropidophis melanurus,bright orange with yellow tails.


So you were clever and created a morph congrats there are a few members on here that have done the same.
However that does not give you the right to come on here and talk to people as if we dont give a flying monkey about our reptiles.


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*Respect*

Why would i want respect from you,you could all tell a pack of lies and none would be the wiser.


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> Is that what you meant,have had one for 23yrs ,never had a problem,two different councils,always very obliging.


Oh wow you can keep a DWA guess what we have people here that do that too.
Good for you that you have moved twice in those 20 odd years.
We can all chuck around about things we like to think we have done or have created but it dont wash on a forum like this
As Christy said you need to start from scratch on here no one gives to hoots who you were or are. 
You get the respect you deserve for the way you treat people.
Personally id like to see you in action giving ADVICE and HELP which is what this forum is for!
Lets see how well your 20 yrs serves you then!


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> Why would i want respect from you,you could all tell a pack of lies and none would be the wiser.


LOL believe it or not the reptile comunity is still quite close. 
People actually know people in real life on the forum. 
Ask around if you want to know the "truth" about some members.
Go back and read posts check out replies etc etc


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

animalsbeebee said:


> Why would i want respect from you,you could all tell a pack of lies and none would be the wiser.


Pot, meet kettle. Why yes, we *are* both made of iron, aren't we?

Yeah, we could all be telling lies.
You could be lying like a rug.


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## Testudo Man (Aug 3, 2005)

animalsbeebee said:


> I just wondered if any of you enthusiasts feel guilty about having animals banged up in cages their whole lives,years ago we use to use the excuse it was to captive breed instead of wild caught,whats the excuse now.


Get yourself a tortoise man...

Set it free man...

Let it live/thrive in your garden man...

Takes away most of the guilt man...T.T.8)


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

This thread is quite amusing really but I think there is something lurking under the bridge, and we probably shouldn't be feeding it... :whistling2:


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## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

animalsbeebee said:


> Some of my snakes chris had never seen the colour morphs of,some were the only in uk that there are still alive tropidophis melanurus,bright orange with yellow tails.


your point being?? if i remember for the time we used to see Chris he was more into Chelonia...although he did have a very nice and varied collection of snakes, of which his indian pythons i was in LOVE with!! you go on like you were the only and best keeper the UK has had?...i sense a rather low ego that needs boosting?


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Athravan said:


> This thread is quite amusing really but I think there is something lurking under the bridge, and we probably shouldn't be feeding it... :whistling2:


Aww but we like it 
It means they get all fat and chunky then blow up


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

I think you really need to get a life... wow, your obviously the best keeper ever by what your saying, yet to be quite frank no one gives a shit... just go and preach somewhere where people have the same views as you as it is quite obvious that reptile keepers are not going to agree with your views...


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## cervantes (Apr 24, 2008)

Faith said:


> Aww but we like it
> It means they get all fat and chunky then blow up


 
Very nicely put Faith: victory:


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Terrific tortoise said:


> Get yourself a tortoise man...
> 
> Set it free man...
> 
> ...


lol ill take 5 then TT


PMSL brad now thats what i call funny


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

cervantes said:


> Very nicely put Faith: victory:


I do have my uses lol


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

The point needs to be put across... i do love these threads though...


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## carlo69 (Apr 12, 2007)

*upset?*

Obviously hit a raw nerve with you lot , I know this person and they are one of the most respected animal keepers i know and if you lot think rfuk is the be all and end all you are sadly mistaken , try taking your heads out of your a***s and taking a good look at yourselves before you gang up on an individual like a bunch of school kids , If you had not figured it out the point has been made ,You all think it is fine to attack individuals for there opinions everyone is entitled to there opinion if you agree with it or not . your opinions may be valid but you have made a farce out of them with you ridiculous ,childish behaviour.


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

Yeah were attacking an individual..................


















Nevermind, life goes on for the rest of us....


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

carlo69 said:


> Obviously hit a raw nerve with you lot , I know this person and they are one of the most respected animal keepers i know and if you lot think rfuk is the be all and end all you are sadly mistaken , try taking your heads out of your a***s and taking a good look at yourselves before you gang up on an individual like a bunch of school kids , If you had not figured it out the point has been made ,You all think it is fine to attack individuals for there opinions everyone is entitled to there opinion if you agree with it or not . your opinions may be valid but you have made a farce out of them with you ridiculous ,childish behaviour.


Ridiculous childish behavoiur?
Now you are having us on.
What do you think going on a reptile forum and asking people if they feel guilty about keeping pets they are passionate about is doing!!!!!!!!!!
Take a look in the mirror.
If this person is that well respected why did they not use their real name that would carry the respect they have earned over the yrs and ask a serious question, instead of accusing people of not keeping their pets correctly!


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Whats better then feeding a troll??





Feeding two !


:lol2:


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

TBH she has to earn her respect on here... so far out of a possible 100 she is on about -50...


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> Whats better then feeding a troll??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yay now we can really start being childish and ridiculous 

Feeding trolls is good for the hobby PJ when they are fat enough we can feed them to the antis  lmao
You can tell how bored i am i want my start gold


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## carlo69 (Apr 12, 2007)

*Point made*

My god do you keep parrots as well cos all you do is repeat what is said by me and then add on a snide comment ,what year are you in at school ,guess this conversation would have been over by now if it was thursday night cos you would have to be in bed early as it would have been a school night.


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## Jamie (Nov 18, 2007)

carlo69 said:


> Obviously hit a raw nerve with you lot , I know this person and they are one of the most respected animal keepers i know and if you lot think rfuk is the be all and end all you are sadly mistaken , try taking your heads out of your a***s and taking a good look at yourselves before you gang up on an individual like a bunch of school kids , If you had not figured it out the point has been made ,You all think it is fine to attack individuals for there opinions everyone is entitled to there opinion if you agree with it or not . your opinions may be valid but you have made a farce out of them with you ridiculous ,childish behaviour.


seriously, what did you expect?

joke or not, you and animalsbeebee attacked people about the way they keep there reptiles on a reptile forum where there are thousands of members. I dont think people have ganged up on anyone, just defended themselves.

This thread was only ever going to go this way, and now your surprised by this???

adlock:


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

carlo69 said:


> My god do you keep parrots as well cos all you do is repeat what is said by me and then add on a snide comment ,what year are you in at school ,guess this conversation would have been over by now if it was thursday night cos you would have to be in bed early as it would have been a school night.


LOL if im at school with 2 kids one of which being a member of the forum then woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo whooooooooooo
My name should be in all the papers 

Also no to the parrots but id like one.
Oh no i cant do that they are ment to be kept in groups and id only keep it away from its natural habitat!


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

> *Point made*
> My god do you keep parrots as well cos all you do is repeat what is said by me and then add on a snide comment ,what year are you in at school ,guess this conversation would have been over by now if it was thursday night cos you would have to be in bed early as it would have been a school night.


Now you've got the point would you mind f***ing off??


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

carlo69 said:


> you ridiculous ,childish behaviour.


What, like jumping onto a reptile forum with a statement like "don't you feel guilty about keeping animals in cages" for the express purposes of stirring up crap?

It's one thing to come and ask that as a genuine question - and to have intelligent conversation about it.

It's another thing to come and ask that and state outright and blatantly that you asked it JUST to stir things up a bit.

Poke the wasp nest, don't expect to get flowers and puppies.


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## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

carlo69 said:


> Obviously hit a raw nerve with you lot , I know this person and they are one of the most respected animal keepers i know and if you lot think rfuk is the be all and end all you are sadly mistaken , try taking your heads out of your a***s and taking a good look at yourselves before you gang up on an individual like a bunch of school kids , If you had not figured it out the point has been made ,You all think it is fine to attack individuals for there opinions everyone is entitled to there opinion if you agree with it or not . your opinions may be valid but you have made a farce out of them with you ridiculous ,childish behaviour.


we were not the ones goading a response! the thread was started by your friend! and when answered HE/SHE was the one who basicaly said HIS/HER opinion was the correct one! what response would an individual expect if they were to put a basicaly totaly anti reptile keeping thread up on a reptile forum???? as said earlier its like telling a group of parents they are ALL not fit to have children without actualy having any information on them at all!!! if this was not meant to be argumentative and to cause a huge negative response then it would have not been "egged on" like it was from the original poster...and the "joke" would have been revealed early on in the thread.....at the end of the day in my opinion the other poster has "asked" for every response they have had!


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

bradhollands999 said:


> Now you've got the point would you mind f***ing off??


LMAO Brad does it again


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## carlo69 (Apr 12, 2007)

*Ha Ha Ha*

:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::closed:Good night gymslip mum


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

carlo69 said:


> :lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::closed:Good night gymslip mum


And on that highly pathetic comment, i think we will end this highly pathetic thread.


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