# Tailless rats wanted



## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Anyone know when I can get some male tailless rats? I live in north east happy to travel to north and west Yorkshire. Anyone further afield let me know just in case. Also I'm heading to Cornwall first week in august so perhaps pick up then if near the m42, m5. Please help. Thanks


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Tailless rats can have lots of health problems, they cant regulate their temperature, they can have pelvic and spinal damage, damage to their bladders and urinary systems etc.

I dont know anyone who breeds for them specifically, and even if they did, I doubt they'd post on the forum about it - as it would show them to be a very irresponsible breeder.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

I had one born in a litter - had never heard of them and though it was just a freak of nature. Wasn't till someone posted some pictures on here of some that I realized others had them. I'm not trying to breed her know there can be problems. She's a dumbo blue perfect health. I doubt anyone breeds them on purpose and will admit it ( just like skinny pigs and guinea pig breeders- they often won't admit having one, due to the problems) however I'm sure some are born from time to time. 
I'm only looking for healthy ones that someone has and would like to find a good home for.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

im not an irresponsible breeder n im gona have a go at getting some tailess babies, i read the info u sent me n yer they CAN have health problems but my 2 are totally fine n healthy, the females is of cause sterile tho. in the info it states they breed them sucessfully in america so what is the difference over here??? look at all these health problems with other animals n they still breed them. if my boy didnt act n look very healthy then i wouldnt have a go at doing it

i am wanting 2 do this coz i find it interesting n i told u in a pm lisa that i have taken everythin in2 account n if needed babies would be culled if anything was wrong with them. i have had a couple of litters from my tailess boy all babies are very healthly normal with tails n i have chosen a few females 2 put back 2 him when i feel the time is rite, it says there will only be a couple of tailess babies in litters anyway if any at all. i also want 2 know if it could be het like bald as in info it hints on it is but dont acually say.

also a friend that only breeds mice n rats for food had full litters of tailess born in both rats n mice he said they were all really heathly and also females gave birth??? but they were no good 2 him as they didnt have tails so he culled them all til they stopped producing the tailess ones. 

i have nothing 2 hide iv said i have breed my male n people have had the babies off me but they know who the father is n they have had all info i have on them n i have told them about the gene n the negitive points n they are probably going 2 breed half bro n sis's 2geva 2 try n get a tailess or 2

obivosly if babies come out deformed n have bad spines or difficulty walking etc etc they (babies) shall be culled n i shall not breed them again, but i am only wanting 2 have at the most 3 litters/females going back 2 my boy as i have chosen my 3 girls


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## bampoisongirl (Mar 28, 2008)

i swear people told me on here that tailess wasnt genetic? xx


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

bampoisongirl said:


> i swear people told me on here that tailess wasnt genetic? xx


thats what i want 2 find out as i have asked alot of good well known rat breeders that didnt know, lisa found alot of info for me that i have read throught but it dosnt really say about genes, if what my friend told me is true then it suggests that yer it is genetic but i never saw any of his rats or mice n i didnt really ask about them but it wasnt long ago he told me in conversation, i said females were probably sterile or would need a c section 2 get rid of babies but he said his were fine but my female is sterile n it sounds like animalstories is 2 so i dont know what the truth is in what my friend has told me???


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Jen Im not sure if you have seen this or not, it says tailless rats are genetic mutations
AFRMA - Breeding Tailless Rats


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Jen m not sure if you have seen this or not, it says tailless rats are genetic mutations
> AFRMA - Breeding Tailless Rats


 
lol u can foind anything u are lady google lol sod lady gaga

_Genetic Mutation_
_Tailless rats are a genetic mutation. Take into consideration that the reason they are Tailless is due to a defect. Because you are breeding for this defect, you have a much greater chance of having babies with more damaging defects than you would if you were breeding rats with tails. Some of these defects include limp tails, many kinds of leg and spine problems, crooked legs and feet, missing limbs, paralysis, and many others. If you breed animals with any of these problems, you will get more of the same. _
_I am not saying that you will always have problems when breeding Tailless rats. *In fact, problems are fairly rare*. It’s just something to watch out for and to breed against._

it says problems are rare which is what i have read b4 so i see no problem in giving it a go i am willing (well the oh will do it) 2 cull any babies straight away that have problems or as soon as i notice the problem.

thanx for that shell its got some good info in it, i have also read that males are healthier than females so i am considering culling females if any are born as i can sex them straight away, im not 2 sure yet?? well thats if i do have any born lol i normally make litters smaller so i get bigger babies n it releves some presure off the mother n dosnt take as much out of her


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I think that's misleading, as ALL tailless will have problems regulating temperature, so they ALL have problems.

I personally think tailless shouldn't be bred, for the interest of not being rude I gave you the info to make your own decision, hoping you'd pick the ethical one - but hey - it's your choice.

Chances are that these tailless you've had might not even have been born that way, the majority of tailless rats are down to injury during/after birth.

Even so - I think deliberately breeding something for a disadvantage is wrong - what you think is up to you. Just because I was polite in pm and gave you information to make a decision (which you said in your last pm you'd already made, hence no reply from me!) doesn't mean I approve. Not that you should give a hoot whether I do or not - but please dont make me out to have given you the go ahead, when I clearly havent.

Plus I was talking to the OP and didn't even bring you into it.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

there are many animals out there that are being bred every day that are alot more disavantaged than a tailess rat, things i have read about these have been conflicting so i would like 2 find out for myself. i am only wanting 2 have a couple of litters n like i say they will be culled if deformed. 

if my boy isnt a tailess by gene then i wont get any tailess babies, or i may not even if he is a true tailess. i am greatful for the info u gave me n i have taken it in but i have also read somewhere else that it is a myth about the body temp??? it said something along the lines the only down fall is the visual deformity, meaning things like the on the top statement i copied. 

i have also read that people show them (althought there arnt alot about at shows) n judges feel for the bone at the base of the tail being in a certain place and being rounded so they know they havnt been chopped off, why do people show or are allowed to show if people think it is unfair breeding them??

im not having a go just a decusion about it as i find it intresting


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Hi,
I've written in red so you can see which comments I've replied to.




LisaLQ said:


> I think that's misleading, as ALL tailless will have problems regulating temperature, so they ALL have problems.
> 
> They said all naked/hairless rats had problems but not all mine do. The only problem I've had is locing a doe in pregnancy and that happens to haired rats as well.
> 
> ...


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## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> i have also read that people show them (althought there arnt alot about at shows) n judges feel for the bone at the base of the tail being in a certain place and being rounded so they know they havnt been chopped off, why do people show or are allowed to show if people think it is unfair breeding them??


They probably are in the USA, but they are not allowed to be shown in the UK : victory:


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

I will not involve myself in the health debate as I think all those points have been covered - but regardless, it will be very hard to breed for something that is not a simple recessive. Tailess genetics are not known but they seem to be quite confusing. It would be very hard to get a line going because making more is difficult.

It seems to be most common in Siamese.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

neep_neep said:


> They probably are in the USA, but they are not allowed to be shown in the UK : victory:


think i got that info from the horthorn rat web site?? the one showing all the different colours n types, is it american??? im not 100% it was that site tho i will have 2 double check but im pritty sure it was, iv read that much n have some links stored i can remember what said what now lol


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

Wouldnt it be a lethal gene? like in manx cats? and yellow mice?


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

It's not a myth about temperature regulation - I do have some knowledge of this as my sister has an accidental tailless from another breeder.

I agree that some hairless are fine - I've had some - but I think that no hair is one thing, a missing tail/deformed spine/pelvis/urinary tract/reproductive system is another. However "uncommon" tailless breeders might claim these problems to be - it's still far too common for someone with no experience to be aiming for.

I wouldn't breed a variety I knew had a predisposition to these health problems, I'd be breeding away from it - not for it.

I hate to use the word "ethics" as I think it's bandied about on certain fluffier forums to cover some people's love of a good scandal, but seriously - breeding something that has a. much less chance of regulating their temperature, and b. a much higher risk of other much more serious deformities and causing suffering in the process - is unethical.

Of course ethics are very personal, but I would hope that someone who wanted to try and breed them responsibly would be more experienced and had the back up of some other fantastic breeders with lots of experience in genetics.

Have you emailed any tailless breeders in the US for information? Spoken to any clubs about whether anyone over here is trying for it and not mentionning so? Know the genetics of it all - or a rough idea of what to expect? Or are you just doing it then worrying about it later?


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Just to add - some links for those interested:

That Wonderful Rat Tail



> Rats use their tails for balance, much like their cousins the squirrels who run through the branches of trees. When rats are running or walking quickly on a flat surface, they do not drag their tails limply behind them, but rather keep them lifted a centimetre or so off the ground. If a rat is running along a narrow surface such as a rope, the tail constantly moves from side to side to steady them. This is the same method used by tightrope walkers who move a pole to help them stay balanced on the wire.
> When a rat is on an unstable or moving object (such as his or her owner's shoulder or arm) he or she will use the tail as a counterbalance. The rat manages to stay balanced by curling its tail under or against the object. This moves the rat's centre of gravity, keeping it balanced.
> The long tail is also partly responsible for the outstanding ability of rats to climb. When climbing up or down a rope, rats will curl their muscular tail around the rope for extra stability (Photo: Copyright A&R Arthur, 2001 http://www.dapper.com.au).
> Another important feature of the tail is its role in body temperature regulation. The rat has specialised blood vessels that can control the amount of blood that flows to the tail. Because it lacks fur, the tail is not insulated so blood flowing into the skin of the tail carries heat which is then radiated out of the body via the tail. The rat can direct anywhere between 0.1 and 10 per cent of its cardiac output to the tail. If a rat is hot, up to 20 percent of the its metabolic heat can be released in this way. If a rat is cold, it can restrict blood flow to the tail, reducing heat loss. I have observed this phenomenon with my own rats. In the morning when the apartment is cooler, the tails of my rats are cooler to the touch because they are conserving heat. When the room is warmer during the day, their tails are warmer to the touch because they do not have to conserve as much heat. It is interesting to note that we humans radiate heat through our skin to regulate body temperature as well.


AFRMA - Breeding Tailless Rats



> Tailless rats are a genetic mutation. Take into consideration that the reason they are Tailless is due to a defect. Because you are breeding for this defect, you have a much greater chance of having babies with more damaging defects than you would if you were breeding rats with tails. Some of these defects include limp tails, many kinds of leg and spine problems, crooked legs and feet, missing limbs, paralysis, and many others. If you breed animals with any of these problems, you will get more of the same.
> I am not saying that you will always have problems when breeding Tailless rats. In fact, problems are fairly rare. It’s just something to watch out for and to breed against.


AFRMA -Troubles With Tailless

Look at the pics on that one ^

I dont doubt that many tailless rats wont have any problems. Maybe even the majority. However, they wont be able to climb/balance as well, and may have trouble regulating their temperatures. Females should not be bred from in case they have pelvic abnormalities.

But responsible breeders research first, then do later.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> It's not a myth about temperature regulation - I do have some knowledge of this as my sister has an accidental tailless from another breeder.
> 
> I agree that some hairless are fine - I've had some - but I think that no hair is one thing, a missing tail/deformed spine/pelvis/urinary tract/reproductive system is another. However "uncommon" tailless breeders might claim these problems to be - it's still far too common for someone with no experience to be aiming for.
> 
> ...


if ur so against tailess rats then why dont ur sister cull her tailess as the way u see them it would be fairer than to keep a disabled rat??

so u think i have no experiance, i wonder why coz i dont go 2 rat shows, i am learning all the time as other people are, how r u supost 2 learnt about sumet if u dont have a go, yes i have lots of info on them n know what 2 expect as much as i can with conflicting info i have read. what quaifications will i need then 2 be able 2 breed tailess rats?? please let me know, u dont know how long iv been keeping n breeding rats, u dont know anything about me, the rats i breed are brill u only have to look at feedback n comments on my threads 2 see that. no i have never been on this rat forum u speak about as i have heard only negitive things about it off many many people n how bitchi it really is now i see what people mean judging by ur attitude. what back up will i need from fantastic breeders i can tell if a rat has a major deformity etc n they will be culled end of.

no i dont know the genetics why do u think im doing it :whistling2: yes i have read about them but someone has just pmed me n saying in there rat book its just luck of the draw rather than gen?? 

at the end of the day breeders are probably having them all the time but keep it quite as they will get jumped on by people like u, yes u didnt meantion me in the thread but people know im breeding them so why would i read the thread n not reply. in the info u sent me it said in the us they are very sussesful breeding them how are we suppost 2 be sussesful here if we get slated for trying.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> Just to add - some links for those interested:
> 
> That Wonderful Rat Tail
> 
> ...


may have trouble not 100% they will have trouble, mine are fine they live in the front room so i see them all day long n i would be able 2 read the signs if they did over heat also they would of course drink more which they dont. i didnt want 2 get nasty about this topic lisa but seems like u do. 

n u wouldnt think a dog with 3 legs couldnt walk as well as a dog with 4 but if they have been like that since they are young or birth they know no different n they can cope as well as any others, even ones that have had to have them aputated at an older age cope fine. also if one of ur rats injured its tail n had 2 have it off what would u do?? in ur opinion would u rather cull than cut it off coz u think it wouldnt be able to balance, regulate temps etc 

people breed dogs that are deformed, reps etc etc the list is endless.

and the bit u didnt copy n paste

_*In Conclusion*_

_By now you must be wondering “why on earth does anyone breed these rats if they have such horrible problems?” _

_In all fairness to the very special and knowledgeable breeders who love and promote these rats, I have to say that most of these cases are rarely seen. The only problem which is common is a nub or limp tail (under one-quarter inch long). This causes the rat no discomfort, and is simply annoying to the owner if they want to show their rat (it is a disqualification). All the other conditions I have mentioned are extremely rare, and the most extreme are isolated incidences. __Up until this last year we almost never saw Tailless rats with detrimental physical problems. Unfortunately, the last year has seen a dramatic upsurge in the number and severity of problems with Tailless. Fortunately, they have not yet appeared on the show bench, but much to our dismay they are appearing just about everywhere else._

_also from http://www.rmca.org/Articles/tailless.htm_




_As a breeder for ten years of Tailless rats, I have rules I follow. You may find them helpful, as I have only had three animals in ten years with urinary problems, and no other abnormal formations or disabilities. _

_Selective breeding: I use tailed females that had a Tailless sire and siblings, and breed to a Tailless buck. I never breed from Tailless females. _
_Outcrossing: I breed a Tailless buck to an unrelated (now Tailless) doe - then cross brother to sister from F1, or breed to another Tailless buck. This is a good way to start new colors or add new traits. _
_I use females who have partial tails, as the ovaries seem intact, and I fear a too extreme Tailless female may be also otherwise altered. _
_All in all, don't be afraid to breed the Tailless. Just be aware that it can involve malformation if Tailless to Tailless is used too often, or if lines are inbred too long. _

i could go on n on all day long finding quotes n picking out the good bits n u could keep going picking out all the bad bits, at the end of the day im having a go at breeding these, i know all the signs to look for, for unrine infections, bowl condidtions, over heating, etc etc etc n they will be culled if i thought there was someting wrong with 2 the 2 i already have they 2 would be culled, so again how am i an irrisponsible breeder for having a go at breeding these n knowing all the ins n outs what 2 look for, n doing something out it if i do get any that need 2 be culled??? please tell me

hopefully it would be nice 2 get a good healthy tailess like my beautiful boy i have, but if not n no tailess apear then well at least i had a go, n i may even get a professional rat breeder certificate, hopefully u will wish me luck with what i am going 2 do n not hope i do get any deformed babies


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

i also wanted 2 add 2 the conclusion part i copied, it follows on 2 say that problems have occured recently as tailless have been being sold in pet shops n people have been breeding them n not knowing anything about them, how 2 breed them when to out cross etc so that is the reasons tailless rats have occured problems. however my boy is nice n healthy n everyone that has met him would agree im sure, so i shall not turn down the opportunity of breeding him, n hopefully producing healthy tailless babies.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

I had all the same arguments 3 yrs ago with skinny pigs. It's not reconised here. It's unhealthy etc. I also found out that although they won't admit it buy some well known cavy club members breed them. Hipocrites is the correct term I beleive. Ijoined the nothern rat socity and found them really strange and still found it hard to by anything from members. They liketo keep there stock between there friends. I had hairless and sold a few boys to my local pet shop. Ionly breed them as one of there customers really wanted one. I later found out that it was a member of the rat club that had been telling me that people shouldn't sell to shops, yet she was ordering from one. This argument didn't stand up. Needless to say I made sure she knew that it was my rat she had and that she as full of it. The other mentality of hers was .... I saw a rat in a pet shop and I just had to rescue it! In other words she just wanted it. Know this hasn't got much to do with this argument but it made me think of it when lisa says she don't like it and then we find out her sister has one.... For what ever reason. (because she wanted one I suspect and not cos. She was doing the rat a good deed.)
My longest thread.. I'm so excited...
Oh and some pet shops are excellent and do know how tolook after rats. Society members often think they have a right to breed and keep and that others don't. £10 a year membership is the qualification and experiance and the right it seems.


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

someone o know had a tailess pop in a litter of simaese rats. but never knew how.

i love there tails so i think i dislike tailess more from not having long dangly tails. only lately have i seen people breeding them though i thought they were nopt in the country yet haha.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

My sister didn't cull her tailless, as if you'd read the message properly, you'll see she came from another breeder as a one off abnormality.

You cant say "three legged dogs live ok" - would you breed intentionally a 3 legged dog? Crikey. I have had a rat who had to have half his tail removed, I had it done by a vet. And I dont cull. Everything I breed lives out it's life, but so far - because of the informed choices I've made - I've never bred anything missing a limb LOL! And if I did, I would stop that line and start again.

As for learning while you do it - well I dont even know what to say to that. Have you emailed any tailless breeders in the US to chat about how to breed them responsibly? You cant learn something by going in and doing it without any knowledge, all you'll learn is whether you get them or not - wow - what an informed choice.

As for the selling to pet shop argument - well that's your choice - if you do it, none of my business. I wouldn't let my rats end up in one - it's nothing to do with their care or lack of it - I know some pet shop owners who care about their animals - doesn't mean I'd sell mine there. It's to do with knowing where they go, what their lifelong health is like, what they die of, if their owners have problems with temperament etc so you can make an informed decision about your lines in the future and whether to breed from certain ones. You cant do that if you hand your rats out and dont keep in touch with their new owners.

I dont think you have to be a member of a club to breed. I dont think all club members are good breeders (in fact I know that not to be true). I've not said that in this thread that I know of? But I would hope that someone who wanted to breed would approach other breeders for help and to learn about their chosen variety, and not just churn them out without learning about them first, for the novelty factor.

Because - admit it love - that's all this is - oooh tailless, let's see if I can make some more. Someone was selling them for £50 before, come off it - they cost the same to raise, how come people see pound signs when others see disabled rats?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

I recently had a tailless rat crop up in my breeding group.

Definite pelvic deformities - as though the left hip was rotated outwards by 45 degrees, so that the left ankle was held directly under the body midline. It (no idea whether male or female - no obvious testicles, but too furred to see whether there were any nipples) hopped awkwardly, could apparently eat, poop and grow... but I have no interest in perpetuating that level of deformity.

If I get more tailless cropping up in future litters from that pair, the adult pair will be retired from breeding; I am considering retiring them now.


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

to be honest how do you all know so much on something hardly bred and not been improved on or no one has done tests or asked us breeders on the line etc?

i know people will now say because of personal experiance but that isnt proper research and info.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I think it's hard to know anything about tailless rats, as most breeders I know wouldn't try to breed them. No more than we'd breed a rat with no eyes, no legs or no head.


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> I think it's hard to know anything about tailless rats, as most breeders I know wouldn't try to breed them. No more than we'd breed a rat with no eyes, no legs or no head.


i wouldnt breed them because i think whats a rat without a tail! lol i supose in feel the same way, its just another phase like hairless.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> My sister didn't cull her tailless, as if you'd read the message properly, you'll see she came from another breeder as a one off abnormality.
> 
> because of ur views on tailless rats why would u ur sis keep a rat that would have such a bad life?
> 
> ...


bald rats cost the same to raise as normal rats but they are sold for more so ur point being ??? out of 3 litters i am planning 2 have, the amount i will produce if any shall probably all be being kept n if i do chose 2 sell a few then that is my choice. i think it is a jealousy factor with u, u think u are all high n mighty n no one else should have a go or breed rats what ever they are, havnt u bullied people out of attending rat shows in the past causing rumours about them n turning people against them, i think u have n u know u n sis have


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## nathangoldie (Dec 22, 2008)

we get tailless pop in our albino groups so far they have been perfectly healthy , only problem i find with them is the females tend to be very skitty no problems with breeding just no tail to grab them with , not every line of tailless has defects


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

nathangoldie said:


> we get tailless pop in our albino groups so far they have been perfectly healthy , only problem i find with them is the females tend to be very skitty no problems with breeding just no tail to grab them with , not every line of tailless has defects


 
Ive noticed all my does love to be very hyper maybe its just them down to being a girl lol, my boys are nicely laid back compared to my girlies lol.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I don't think personal opinions should be voiced about particular peoples attitides on this thread.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion what ever that opinion may be.
I don't think jealously comes into it really with LisaQ. Some breeders have been 'tarnished' by these other forums I think and the thoughs from these forums can overflow into other conversations.

There is always going to be some breeders who disagree with others trying to better or further rare/odd genes.

I must say though I don't charge any more for my hairless than I do for my furred rats so that's a bit harsh to say.
I have seen tailess being sold last year, again I think it was 'Scott' on captivebred, but then again they are a new thing and the costs will come down as it does with different breeds of dogs as they become more easily obtained.

If this different pricing is frowned upon is it therefore wrong to price puppies differently as per their breed/variety???

Although my tailess boy Syrain lost his tail due to his mother he doesn't seem to have any problem thermoregulating due to his lack of a tail nor does he have any 'balance' problems. He bombs around the bars on the boys cage, a 5ft aviary, as well as the others.

If something is more difficult to breed and you get smaller litters, as you do with smaller breed dogs, then I see no problem in pricing them accordingly.
Mind you £50 for a rat that may only live for 2 years is a bit stiff.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

I don't think pricing is the issue either - personally I'd never charge differently just because of the physical appearance of something though. In terms of dog breeds that is a bit different - different breeds are totally unique and different in a variety of ways, and some are more expensive to rear than others.

Somebody earlier on said that how can you know so much about their health if they have not been bred and improved on. I think the argument is that this mutation (at least in some cases) causes the health problems - the health problems are not a side-effect of it. 

Having said that I think it probably would be possible to get a line of tailess rats going that are, by definition, healthy and free from problems. However there is no escaping that removing a tail will make that rat less balanced when climbing and doing "ratty" activities. I think getting a line going in the first place would be the hard part. From my understanding they are not lethal homozygous - they are definitely not a simple dominant or recessive gene...(although I can't speak for the american ones, it's possible they have a different mutation, although very unlikely)...as it seems more common in Siamese it seems to have a connection with that gene on the C-Locus.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Many people and shops charge different prices for dumbos compaired to normals. The arguement about pet shops selling rats to anyone doesn't hold with me. Breeders can't always judge a person with a visit. You get the this person is ok. This person isn't. But you could sum someone up completely wrong and they could be buying the rat to stove it's head in with a house brick and eat it with a nice salad! How many reptile people sell there snakes to pet shops/repte outlets? Does that make them irrisponsible? What about reptile shows where u don't know the buyer at all. Is a snake therefore seen differently than a rat? All responsible sellers have an obligation to sell to a good home but at the end of the day you can't really tell if the animals going to get the best life with that person. What I can say is I spend a lot of time with the rats I have. They are cleaned wkly or sooner if required. Water and fed daily and well looked after. The shop I deal with only take from me. No one else. Any problems they know I deal with it and will replace any that get too big (which I'll keep or re home to a friend, etc) I trust them to make good judgement in their sales. I have a number of times spoken to customers for them and even had rats handed in by customers to the shop and found them new homes. I'm not picking on people just I'm seeing a lot of what I've heard by other rat society members which makes them feel superiour to others. Most people buy there first pet from a shop.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Lover said:


> someone o know had a tailess pop in a litter of simaese rats. but never knew how.


 
I had him  His name was Hamish and lived to a ripe old age... Passed away a couple months ago. Although, I am pretty sure he lost his tail during birth or soon after and it wasn't a genetic abnormality. He never had balance issues or anything else. Was completely healthy and never once needed to see a vet for anything. 

I've never really understood why people charge different prices for different varieties of rats (or mice). I've always done a set price (with a bit knocked off when you buy more than one)... It doesn't cost any different to feed and care for a hairless dumbo than it does for a top eared agouti. *shrugs* Just my opinion.


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

Amalthea said:


> I had him  His name was Hamish and lived to a ripe old age... Passed away a couple months ago. Although, I am pretty sure he lost his tail during birth or soon after and it wasn't a genetic abnormality. He never had balance issues or anything else. Was completely healthy and never once needed to see a vet for anything.
> 
> I've never really understood why people charge different prices for different varieties of rats (or mice). I've always done a set price (with a bit knocked off when you buy more than one)... It doesn't cost any different to feed and care for a hairless dumbo than it does for a top eared agouti. *shrugs* Just my opinion.


 
If its the same rat from her, it was two litters together i think and one was tailess from birth she told me. i charge smaller ammount on top ear because people have less interest if i sold them at dumbo price not many get interest. i did charge same ammount i lowered it because they didnt sell at £10 like the others.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

I am pretty sure it's the same rat  I saw him as a pinkie and he had a bit of a scab on the end of his tail, so we concluded that it was due to some sort of trauma.


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

lol probibly his mum had chewed it while cleaning him up at birth


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Most likely  He always had a little stump that he wriggled when he was excited *lol*

*goes to get pics*


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

on the price thing i told lisa how much i paied for mine which wasnt £50 each n yes i also said 2 her i paid 2 much but i wanted them i had known them for a while as they were my friends n had always liked them, so whats wrong with me paying money for things i want???. however i have not said anywhere that i will even be selling any babies i want them for myself 1st n some research shows there will only be a few in litters if any at all, plus other research says its not a gene its just luck of the draw so i my not even get any. 

at the end of the day people can charge what they want for animals look at corn snakes they all cost the same 2 keep n breed but u will pay from £15 for a baby normal 2 hundreds (the dearest iv seen was £5000 for a new morph) for a morph. so the argument about things costing the same 2 feed n breed dont stand imo. plus personally i wouldnt pay £10 for a pew or a black berki, husky rat etc but i would pay more for more attrative colours or balds that i like. i have given plenty of my rats away for free 2 friends that i know or given them cheeper so lisa suggesting that i want 2 have a go at this 2 make money just makes me laugh, she is just making assumptions she dont know me or anything about me


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> on the price thing i told lisa how much i paied for mine which wasnt £50 each n yes i also said 2 her i paid 2 much but i wanted them i had known them for a while as they were my friends n had always liked them, so whats wrong with me paying money for things i want???. however i have not said anywhere that i will even be selling any babies i want them for myself 1st n some research shows there will only be a few in litters if any at all, plus other research says its not a gene its just luck of the draw so i my not even get any.
> 
> at the end of the day people can charge what they want for animals look at corn snakes they all cost the same 2 keep n breed but u will pay from £15 for a baby normal 2 hundreds (the dearest iv seen was £5000 for a new morph) for a morph. so the argument about things costing the same 2 feed n breed dont stand imo. plus personally i wouldnt pay £10 for a pew or a black berki, husky rat etc but i would pay more for more attrative colours or balds that i like.


 
I totally agree, I paid £700 for a Sphynx kitten because I wanted one. I would expect to pay more for something a bit different. When I get my rats I want either Pale blue Dumbos or Dark Baldie Dumbos and will happily pay more for them than normal topeared ones:2thumb:


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> I totally agree, I paid £700 for a Sphynx kitten because I wanted one. I would expect to pay more for something a bit different. When I get my rats I want either Pale blue Dumbos or Dark Baldie Dumbos and will happily pay more for them than normal topeared ones:2thumb:


lol ur mad £700 for a cat lol but thats what u love (but he is rather lovely tho :flrt: i kinda like them in a funny way lol) people are different have different intrests n opinions if they want 2 pay or ask whatever, its there decesion (sp lol??).


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

like mrs DD said i think i have hardly even sold any rats ive given most of mine away too. ive only accepted money from someone lately because i didnt know them most my friends i let them have them for free because i know they have good homes.


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

We have tailess rats pop up often but so far have never managed to breed one by design, no matter which way we try (litter mates, mother to son etc). We have had litters from tailess mothers but again all with tails.

None of our tailess showed any health issues or deformities other then the obvious of missing a tail.

Here's some of our funky rat's including our WereRat

here's our Ratster project,


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

Scott W said:


> We have tailess rats pop up often but so far have never managed to breed one by design, no matter which way we try (litter mates, mother to son etc). We have had litters from tailess mothers but again all with tails.
> 
> None of our tailess showed any health issues or deformities other then the obvious of missing a tail.
> 
> ...


 
the rat with half hair half no hair looks freaky lol, looks more like a mouse. how have you got it to look like that is it a double rex?


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

Lover said:


> the rat with half hair half no hair looks freaky lol, looks more like a mouse. how have you got it to look like that is it a double rex?


years and years of selective breeding plus a few chemicals in it's water.
















Nah....just joking, it was spontaneous out of our breeding barn. I did want to see if I could replicate it and get some more funky colours into it but just didn't have time.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

Scott W said:


> We have tailess rats pop up often but so far have never managed to breed one by design, no matter which way we try (litter mates, mother to son etc). We have had litters from tailess mothers but again all with tails.
> 
> None of our tailess showed any health issues or deformities other then the obvious of missing a tail.
> 
> ...


i love the last pic looks like a sheep, very cute. yes this is what my friend told me which i have stated b4 in the thread he said all his females without tails had litters but he said was producing alot if not all tailess babies, as they were for food he culled them as he needed the tails for feeding, (didnt ask why, probably 2 hold with ??? dont want 2 know tho lol) but all research shows/says that females will not be able 2 get pregnant or my died giving birth?? maybe if they were true tailless the ones he bred n u are breeding dont have the sight change in hip bones?? n are able 2 have babies with ease. this is what needs 2 be looked into as this is a way of breeding out the negitive aspects, but if people are not willing 2 give them a chance how are they 2 be improved??


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

Scott W said:


> years and years of selective breeding plus a few chemicals in it's water.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ps lol are u the guy that was selling some tailess a while back, saxon said he was called scot n said he went on capitive breed?? just wondered if it was u n what colours u sold?? would like 2 know if my 2 possibly came from u


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> ps lol are u the guy that was selling some tailess a while back, saxon said he was called scot n said he went on capitive breed?? just wondered if it was u n what colours u sold?? would like 2 know if my 2 possibly came from u


 
I don't think I ended up selling any tailess rats in the end. I have produced 1000's of rats over the last 3 years and a good number were passed to other people for starting up breeding colonies and I've heard a few tailess have appeared but again not heard of a single tailess rat giving birth to more.


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> but all research shows/says that females will not be able 2 get pregnant or my died giving birth?? maybe if they were true tailless the ones he bred n u are breeding dont have the sight change in hip bones?? n are able 2 have babies with ease. this is what needs 2 be looked into as this is a way of breeding out the negitive aspects, but if people are not willing 2 give them a chance how are they 2 be improved??


Perhaps there's several different genes that cause the tailess result, some sound like they cause other unwanted problems, whatever gene caused my tailess rats should NO other problem at all. I never Xrayed any but visually I couldn't see any issues.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Sorry to drag this thread up but I found it in a search and noticed I'd been mentioned in it and felt the need to reply to dispel some rather odd comments that were made by a couple of people.

I have a tailless rat (the one Lisa mentioned), she is called Bernie (named so because when she was born she looked like a frozen turkey, her full name being Bernard Matthews lol). She came to me from a breeder who I am friends with because (frankly) I felt sorry for her and she needed a pet home that was knowledgable and sensible. She would've stayed with her breeder otherwise who is likewise responsible, but at the time it was decided she would come here. I used to be a VN and yes of course I wanted her, but not _because_ she was tailless (lol the whole thought of seeking out deformed rats seems strange to me), more _despite_ it. I have a history of taking on "special needs" rats here as rescues or pets, I'm a sucker for a sob story. None of these animals are for breeding. ETA: I don't tend to tell many people about Bernie as you get the retards who get off on freaks of nature wanting a poke and a prod (and a baby). Or you get the opposite, people who judge the breeder for her having cropped up unexpectedly. I didn't know this thread was here or I would have posted sooner. I would prefer my rat not to be used as part of an argument though!

No I didn't cull her Mrs DD (what an odd suggestion to make lol), she came to me as a pet and she would never be bred here because she is deformed, there are no two ways about it. I won't comment on the ins and outs of breeding tailless rats as it's far too complicated for me. Can only comment on personal experience and through the last few weeks Bernie is the only rat that struggled with the heat (and badly so). As I never have the intention of deliberately breeding rats with serious deformities, I cannot comment on her fertility or ability to birth. I wouldn't risk finding out as she is and always has been a beloved pet, not a breeding rat. 

Just wanted to set the record straight. I would suggest anyone intending to breed tailless gets the support of people with more knowledge and experience, including perhaps those over on the NFRS boards who are great for genetic and breeding advice. 



animalstorey said:


> lisa says she don't like it and then we find out her sister has one.... For what ever reason. (because she wanted one I suspect and not cos. She was doing the rat a good deed.)


:bash:


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Lisa draged you into it so I'd have a chat with her. Due to her not liking the idea of tail less one minute and then saying you have one the next was bound to raise comments. I just had one born - never heard of it at all and thought it a one off. Then I heard of others having them,(seemed like it was common), so wanted a girl to go with her... Then the comments started. Sorry if your sister stired up an Issue for u.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

It wasn't what Lisa said that offended me (althought you're right that I didn't ask to be dragged into this - the thread was while I was not participating on this board) - I don't share many of her views but she didn't accuse me of taking her on for my pleasure in an animal's deformity. But I appreciate that's as close to taking it back as you're likely to get. :whistling2:


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

When I wanted to buy a skinny pig all I got from cavy club members was almost hate mail! Then I learn some of these people had and breed them. One was a top member. When I joined the north east rat society I had a lot of the same treatment. Also it seemed that all members that I talked to believed they knew so much more JUST because they were a member. Like membership granted them a drgree in rat keeping. That's what it felt like. So u can see wheni get the third degree for asking for a taileds rat by one of these 'ratties' and told How bad I am then to find out her sister has one fir what ever the reason why should I be able to ask for one also. I can use the word rescue just like others but I didn't. In fact I think I stayed out of the main argument. So I don't see what's so different betwee u and me. I had one born tailess just like your breeder friend. I care for her and love her to bits. Not once has she had a problem nor do I ever think of her as a disabled rat. In fact she's not disabled at all in my eyes. She's perfect. How come it's ok for one person to keep one and not for another. I wasn't for breeding disabilities as u call them. Just if they were a line ( like hairless) I would have liked a companion for her. She lives with one of her sisters.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I have not commented on a single thing you have done, other than your comments about me personally. I couldn't care less if you went asking on the boards for a legless rat, never mind a tailless one, I'm not in on that debate. :lol2: With all due respect, you disagreed with Lisa, and instead of arguing with her, you made a rude comment about me and my choice to take on this rat, without knowing either of us, or the circumstances. You have yourself commented on how rude people are to judge you personally without knowing you, so I would ask you to consider why you would do the same. 

And finally for the record, I didn't go out looking for or asking for a tailless rat. I have not expressed my views on doing so, as I don't want part of that debate personally, nor on the issue of hairless rats. ETA: I am not a member of the "northern rat club", I haven't heard of them, before I get accused of being one of them too lol. 

Thanks

Kathy


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Nicely go away. Didn't want your sisters comment and dont want yours.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Crikey, how pleasant. This is a public forum and I was within my rights to set you straight on the misinformation you said about me, didn't ask for or expect an apology, just setting things straight. That's all I care about, so we'll end it there. : victory:


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

The end.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Last word syndrome? :lol2:


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

........


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

:flrt:
Quits


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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