# Enrichment and free roaming



## Swindinian

Time to unwind and relax - it’s husbandry time again.

Yet again I let out Noodle, the corn snake, to go explore whilst I check and clean the pythons. He loves to come out and sniff around, but invariably after a bit of exercise and enrichment, he often settles on the bed under the blanket (not part of my plans).

Wondering what ideas you all come up with for enrichment and stimulation.

Few photos to start off 😁


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## Swindinian




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## Swindinian




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## Swindinian




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## Swindinian




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## Swindinian




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## Swindinian

And later that evening, as predicted, Noodle had snuggled into bed. He now seems to enjoy the blanket more than sniffing around the juvenile female’s viv (Amber). Its not uncommon for her to watch him if he passes.


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## Swindinian

The bed sharing behaviour has presented a bit of a dilemma.

Noodle seems to love exploring under the covers, perhaps my son’s feet smell a bit rodenty (though he is only ten, not even teenage years), or Noodle just likes the texture and enclosed feeling of being between bed covers, but I confess that permitting a snake to climb into bed is not following good hygiene practise.

I do move the pillow and bed clothes off the bed, and folding the bed cover down, to deter noodle from congregating at the head board end.

There has not been any bed pooping at least, but the types of commensal microbes for mammals contrasts with those in reptiles, so there is a risk Noodle could transmit something such as Salmonella.

My son doesn’t eat in bed and does wash his hands before meals. And if I am washing my hands between husbandry chores, then I ought to be adopting comparable hygiene practises for other contact points.

I suppose I either need to cease the practise, sanitise noodle before he goes for an explore, and/or change the bedding every time I allow this.


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## Malc

Next there will be the post... "my snake is stuck under the floor boards - what can I do?"

Back in the day I did this with my large corn snake. We had a flat with a concrete floor so no issues of finding a gap in a wooden floor and disappearing. He was "exploring" the sofa, and I turned my back for like a minute whilst I changed the water in his viv. Next thing was he was gone... wasn't under the sofa, or any of the furniture, checked all rooms, nothing. Then we noticed a slight movement at the side of the sofa. So we were having to rip a £1500 sofa apart and extract the snake. Needless to say he was NEVER left un-attended again.


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## Elly66

Warm and dark place, perfect to feel safe and secure. It's saying "I need to hide as feel to out in the open".


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## arwen_7

I tend to make a pen for mine when I let them roam around on their own. Shut all the doors in the hall and block of the stairs. Then scatter around some things they may find interesting - a cushion, blanket, cork bark, branches, old kids/parrot toys. 
I never leave them unattended though. The corn and kingsnake are way to sneaky and would find a small gap and escape from the pen if given the chance. 
Morrigan, the bci , is much less interested in escaping and instead will inspect everything around her. Before settling on something to sit and watch what ever I am doing.


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## Swindinian

I like the play pen idea 👍

I could only really release larger snakes, and only in the attic bedroom, which has a gap under the door, but is otherwise secure (at least for an adult corn snake)

The rest of the home is a fat NO, as there are way too many holes and crevices, and not snake safe at all, plus they might scare our sprocker spaniel 😂🤣😂

Noodle is also quite predictable, but I think my spotted pythons would be harder to track down, and more likely to hide away, the jungle carpets tend to only be out after lights out, at least for now (might become less secretive when they are older).


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## arwen_7

Making a safe space for them can be difficult that's for sure. I do find it interesting to watch what they do when they come across.something new. When Katy, our corn snake, came across the stairs for the first time he took next to no time working out how to get up them quickly. But coming down them appeared to confuse him for ages 😅


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## QWERTYOP

Sounds like a recipe for never seeing my Cali King again! 😂


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## loxocemus

iv often wondered when the enrichment tag became attached to "free roaming", we don't know how an individual feels during such an experience. snakes are animals of purpose, seen when hunting, seen when risking a bask, and its usually done near a bolt hole trail. a wild snake "free roaming" has a target on its back, they are prey as much as they are predators. I'd love to know what their instinctive brains tell them during such an experience, has captivity, of many gens in for corns for example, of captive evolution, supressed the constant survival instinct. you can bet your ass an exposed snake in the wild is being watched by a pair of hungry eyes, old age is a luxury few enjoy.

food for thought not knocking the practice, done it myself a few times, there are definitely species (ie temperaments) more suited to it than others.

rgds
ed


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## Swindinian

loxocemus said:


> iv often wondered when the enrichment tag became attached to "free roaming", we don't know how an individual feels during such an experience. snakes are animals of purpose, seen when hunting, seen when risking a bask, and its usually done near a bolt hole trail. a wild snake "free roaming" has a target on its back, they are prey as much as they are predators. I'd love to know what their instinctive brains tell them during such an experience, has captivity, of many gens in for corns for example, of captive evolution, supressed the constant survival instinct. you can bet your ass an exposed snake in the wild is being watched by a pair of hungry eyes, old age is a luxury few enjoy.
> 
> food for thought not knocking the practice, done it myself a few times, there are definitely species (ie temperaments) more suited to it than others.
> 
> rgds
> ed


I wouldn’t say free roaming equals enrichment, but it can do.

I suppose a way of testing whether he is leaving the viv for a purpose, just to hunt for food would be to offer meal items in a way that tests this?

I have only offered him food in the viv, sometimes from tongs and sometimes leaving scent trails and placing the meal for him to locate, he wouldn’t have been rewarded with food when choosing to leave his viv.

I am pretty confident Noodle enjoys the forays by the way he responds to the situations. There is a range of behaviours he displays, sometimes he just focuses on one spot and tongue flicks for 10s of minutes, analysing the scent of a shed skin or of feeding tongs or unused decor, sometimes he meanders around and sometimes he looks to be actively searching.
Last year in winter/spring he was quite the sex pest, constantly trying to find a way into Amber’s viv. Not so much this year, so far……
I mentioned about him settling in my son’s bed. Often he will settle there but continue to watch me. When I retrieve him he tends to freeze, not struggle. 

He is always cold to the touch after being on the bed, so the notion that the bed is warm does not tally.


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## Swindinian

I would also suggest that habituation plays a bigger role in whether a snake feels the need to seclude, or feels more emboldened to come out and engage with what’s happening.


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## loxocemus

when an animals entire life, its entire world is 4 walls, then suddenly a wall disappears, the "choice" made to venture out is open to interpretation, it would be aberrant behaviour if they didn't at least peek out i think, but when a new stimulus appears after such captive stagnancy(?), it must be "welcome" in some however anthropomorphised way, on whatever level they operate.

iv seen other enrichments totally taken out of context, like the couperi finding fuzzies in that little blue plastic food hider? or whatever it is, its supposed to be a display of couperi's intelligence, iv kept couperi i know how smart they are, but that thing was just a display of a basic snake sense, using a particularly greedy persistent species.

enrichments and anthropomorphism are strongly tied together, the problem is their temporary, i don't understand that temporary effort vs doubling a cage size effort or a cage like swin's above, that's a permanent enrichment not open to interpretation, its their entire world the other 23 and a half hours.

but that can involve a no go area, "collection reduction" to improve conditions of the kept, some people would rather keep 100 animals in mediocre to subpar setups than 40 in amazing setups. that's a choice, theirs to make, and iv spoke to a few big collection keepers and i was surprised they also had such internal conflicts, but they felt trapped by their numbers in an odd way.

i suspect a panel of people who use free roaming when confronted with such an argument would include lots of "yes but....." or "he/she ls due an upgrade...."

again, its better than nothing, but that's hardly a shining beacon of a conclusion.

the above is just my opinion, please don't take offence, I'm not worth that effort, particularly because I'm guilty of the total hypocrisy of having used tubs as adult caging (big tubs little species, but still) and probably would again.

rgds
ed


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## arwen_7

loxocemus said:


> enrichments and anthropomorphism are strongly tied together, the problem is their temporary, i don't understand that temporary effort vs doubling a cage size effort or a cage like swin's above, that's a permanent enrichment not open to interpretation, its their entire world the other 23 and a half hours.


And here I was thinking the many phases of quarantine due to covid would open up some people's eyes... 
Do you like being in the same space, day after day, no matter what size it is? Or do you enjoy a change of scenery for a while? 

If a snake is showing signs of stress during its time out of its vivarium then yes, that is not necessarily good enrichment and they should be allowed to go back to their "house". 
In my experience, my snakes all enjoy some time out of their vivariums. They are calm and inquisitive during these sessions. And yes, when they had had enough there behaviour changes and they are allowed back in their vivariums.


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## loxocemus

i think you should re-read.

im afraid i haven't got the open eyed booster yet.

rgds
ed



arwen_7 said:


> And here I was thinking the many phases of quarantine due to covid would open up some people's eyes...
> Do you like being in the same space, day after day, no matter what size it is? Or do you enjoy a change of scenery for a while?
> 
> If a snake is showing signs of stress during its time out of its vivarium then yes, that is not necessarily good enrichment and they should be allowed to go back to their "house".
> In my experience, my snakes all enjoy some time out of their vivariums. They are calm and inquisitive during these sessions. And yes, when they had had enough there behaviour changes and they are allowed back in their vivariums.


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## Swindinian

I would concede that letting Noodle out is as much for my pleasure as anything else. 

It is always on my terms, when I can accommodate it, so it does not give him choice as to when it happens. But when I have opened his glass doors he has only declined once (preshed). Sometimes he is more shy and cautious and waits until I leave the room, other times he knows I am there but is so keen to explore that he comes out confidently.

I agree it would be preferable to have a huge viv over a 4x2x2 ft viv, so it is just a compromise. It at least offers him some novel stimuli and exercise. There is enough furniture in the room for him to remain in ‘stealth mode’, but sometimes he chooses to explore out in the open.
My impression is he does ‘scent mapping’, where he orients the room in terms of what novel scents are where. The less new scents, the sooner he ends up getting onto the bed.

I am a big fan of Lori Torrini on YouTube, and one key message she highlighted was that it could be cruel to offer such activity, only to cease it later on. Don’t introduce them to new experiences such as free roaming, unless you can continue it, because it could cause more distress/frustration of being denied what is known than would have otherwise.

If he is out unsupervised, I leave a hook on the stairs leading to the bedroom to inform other family members (son and wife) that he is free roaming up there.

The dilemma with him settling on the bed was something that was not initially an issue, but now is almost guaranteed; he always settles there once done with exploring. I have tried leaving other blankets on on the floor, but it’s always the bed where I end up retrieving him from……..


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## Thrasops

Swindinian said:


> I wouldn’t say free roaming equals enrichment, but it can do.


I think this one sentence hits the nail on the head.

Personally, I'm always a bit worried by the notion of free roaming being vaunted as a form of enrichment, or worse still as a substitute for enclosure enrichment, and that is for several reasons.

Firstly (and obviously that is not the case with you) I have seen WAY too many keepers make the argument 'it does not need a bigger cage, I let it out once a week.' This is especially common with keepers of larger snakes. And that is a problem. The problem being that letting an animal out, no matter how often, is always at _our _whim and not theirs. It is not their choice but ours. And it does NOT make up for a subpar enclosure the rest of the time (again obviously not the case here). I have seen reptiles that are able to let their keeper know when they want out of their enclosure. I even have a couple that can do it here. But even then that does not mean the keeper will always have the time or inclination to do so.

Secondly, we spend a lot of money on equipment to adjust the internal conditions of that enclosure to make it suitable for the inhabitants, it seems odd to take them out of those environments for prolonged periods and put them somewhere that doesn't have the correct heating (again this varies, a Corn snake is not going to sweat an hour at living room temperatures as much as a Royal python might, for example, and may experience far greater climatic changes in the wild, but it IS still a factor, especially if it is a sudden transition).

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly - more people than should do seem to use the idea of having an animal out being 'enriching' as an excuse to keep it like a cat or dog and have it loose in the house or even take them out on the street, and that is something I am totally against for any number of reasons.

Obviously I am not ascribing any of these things to what you are doing here, merely making an observation on the practice in general.

*My opinion is and has always been, if the animal is kept in an enclosure that is large and enriching enough, it does not need to be taken out of it. *And I would be dismayed to think that there are people using the idea of allowing them to free roam as an excuse to keep them in smaller or less enriched or complex enclosures than they should be.

Of course I do sometimes bring animals out, some I have even let loose in my garden on sunny days - always species with matching environmental needs like Japanese, Russian or Dione's rat snakes, all of which I have in the past kept in enclosures in my garden throughout the spring and summer months anyway - and always only specimens that I know to be calm, trusting, inquisitive. I used to take Carpet pythons out on particularly hot days to sun themselves and was always surprised at how well they reacted to sun exposure. I believe for some specimens the experience CAN be enriching and this will often be obvious in the way they investigate an area; for other specimens it could also be intensely terrifying and stressful. And I am not always confident the kinds of people that would walk around with their iguana or Bearded dragon on the street or on the dashboard of their car, or sit watching TV with their snake on their lap, or even pick up their snake for 'half an hour a day to tame it' would always be capable of identifying one from the other.

The other super important factor would be choice of species. Rat snakes and Carpet pythons are inquisitive, active diurnal species that would spend much of their time moving about by day anyway. Bull snakes would be another good choice, as would probably things like Coachwhips or Psammophiids (although I'd not be crazy enough to let go of one of those outside as I'd likely never see it again). But there are other, more secretive species like Royals, some king snakes (kings straddle the border, some species would be fine, some would not in my opinion) or any fossorial, nocturnal or particularly shy species where at worst they would be stressed to hell being plonked in an unfamiliar setting, or at best it would need to be done at the right time of day not just in direct sunlight.

I think it is great that there are people like Lori Torrini out there demonstrating just what can be done with a little training, and I spend a great deal of time conferring with her myself - but people need to remember as well that Lori is an experienced and qualified animal behaviorist that understands what she is seeing and how to reinforce it; watching the usual Youtube clown brigade attempting to emulate her without having the foggiest clue how to do so - for all their vaunted 'expertise' - only serves to reinforce the difference in knowledge and understanding. And it would be reasonable to assume that the vast majority of keepers probably would not recognise what they are seeing either.

Long story short - I agree with you; free roaming CAN potentially be enriching... but not always. And it does not make up for good environmental enrichment _within _the enclosure. That is not to say free roaming cannot supplement this kind of enrichment though.


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## Thrasops

All that said, I thought you might like to see photos of one of my Japanese rat snakes (_Elaphe climacophora_) out and about from a couple of years back.

In Japanese one of the names for these is 'Aodaisho' (Blue General). They can be fairly drab brown, grey or olive green, but some can be spectacularly coloured with sky blue coloration. As mine have got older some of them have become more or less uniform bluish over time.

I am always pleasantly surprised by these, Russian and Dione's rat snakes and how well they seem to adjust to being dumped in the garden (always under supervision and on pleasant days). Instead of reacting with stress and trying to escape, they invariably take a leisurely stroll, smelling everything, they seem to love approaching the pond, and will climb trees and bushes - always with an air of extreme curiosity and investigation. Lori and another acquaintance Tim Brophy have reported their snakes (Bull snakes and Carpet pythons) have even hunted down and caught rodents whilst allowed out in the garden.


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## Thrasops

Some more pics.


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## LiasisUK

Thrasops said:


> My opinion is and has always been, if the animal is kept in an enclosure that is large and enriching enough, it does not need to be taken out of it.


This.

I don't let my snakes out to roam around, I provide large enclosures for them that I feel are suitable, of course larger would always be better, but so would a room, 2 rooms, a 3 bed detached or their natural habitat.

Aside from the temp reasons Thrasops mentioned; a lot of my snakes are angry, unpredictable, unusual, hard to replace, so the idea of letting them out stresses me out a bit.


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## Swindinian

That is a really important point you highlight Ed, Francis and Tom about unintended stress.

I believe Noodle enjoys the opportunity, but can equally see how some animals could be stressed by such experiences being imposed upon them.

I reflect that my experiments with Noodle were incremental, not implosion, but I did that instinctively rather than consciously, so not something I had conveyed in the descriptions.

I do acknowledge this is something of a controversial subject, which is perhaps why I hadn’t shared it previously.

I tend to hold him only to carry him back to his viv, or previously to carry him to and from the garden. I can sense he takes no pleasure in being held ( but tolerates me), so I don’t hold him much, but he does not seem scared of me.

He has on occasions come right up to me, and even crawled around and through me ( between my crossed legs).
He even crawled right past me whilst I was sawing a wooden pole, which must have generated vibration, and sawdust odours, and included vigorous hand movements!
So I think that he is reasonably habituated to me and doesn’t see me as a threat.

Noodle was allegedly from a petting zoo, before he was with the previous owners. The previous owners got Noodle and another corn snake female who co-habited in a 3 foot viv 🥴
They were given poor advice that they would be ok together, which they subsequently found out and regretted.
She died and he became increasingly defensive and reactive, and they lost confidence holding and handling him.
They didn’t have a stat on the heat bulb, so he must have been getting over heated.
He was very restless. They fed him weekly.
He once shed twice in a couple of weeks. So all in all I am glad I was able to rehome him, and he seems a lot calmer than he used to be.


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## loxocemus

i suppose i meant someone with a 3ft corn cage is more likely to consider free-roaming than someone with a 6ft corn cage, does that make sense?

but if ur going to give a corn (and others) a 6ft cage ur going to have to sacrifice numbers.

*also temperate species just from their mechanical practicalities are easier to give larger caging to, larger tropical caging needs more heat or a higher ambient and with energy prices yada yada.

this is where stuff like garters blk-rats, russians, longissima(mus), situla, four-lines etc etc come into their own, (mechanically, practically)

i never free roamed adult blk rats indigos or pines etc because i knew where they'd go, straight behind the cages the second u turned ur head and they could get hurt extracting them. i was never one for sitting with an animal in my lap, i did play with the couperi in their cages with the doors open, i don't remember constantly shooshing them back in while they were interacting, they loved to taste ur hands, every molecule of what u touched fascinated them, enrichment is frances expertise and his to expand on, being a pessimist i see the uncomfortable grains often left out of such conversations and maybe why i shouldn't take part, constant pessimism is no fun for anyone.

rgds
ed


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## Swindinian

Noodle has indeed spent time exploring behind the vivs, once or twice emerging with fluff on his snout (closest I get to spring cleaning behind the furniture 🤷🏻‍♂️ ), a couple of times he actually scaled up and onto the top of vivs, and I even found him on top of a desk in the room.

He has also climbed into any open vivs (I have four vivs waiting to be set up), twice he has gone into Amber’s viv whilst I was cleaning it. 

But after a couple of initial occasions, when I did actively search to find him ( ie my son needed to go to bed, and didn’t want noodle to be out), since then, I have never had a problem locating him. 

It certainly could be different with more secretive species, but Noodle is more curious than shy.


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## Swindinian

Found a photo dated August 21 of Noodle invading Amber’s 3 ft viv, and sniffing around for her. I guess she was in the moist cave, which is missing from the viv. I wouldn’t introduce him directly to her ( she is just a juvenile).


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## Swindinian

Another one of Noodle; basking under U.V. 
Noodle didn’t get the memo about cryptic basking 😁
I have arranged his cork rounds so now he can cryptically bask inside the cork round (as it has gaps)


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## Swindinian

Wakey wakey Noodle!


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## Swindinian

Would you like to explore?


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## Swindinian

Always!


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## Swindinian

But first let’s investigate the shed skin you re-moistened.


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## Swindinian




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## Swindinian

And maybe a drink before heading off


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## Swindinian

Thoughts on improvements? open to suggestions 😃

I would concede that with beech chips and aspen substrate Noodle doesn’t get much olfactory or ‘vomeronasal‘ novelty within the viv, and limited textural benefits?
I would like to improve on this, and have already lined the viv with LVF, and siliconed it in ready for a dustier(dirtier?) substrate. 

I gather that a deeper substrate with leaf litter could provide greater opportunities to both bury and provide a wider palette of odours to explore.

There is a small halogen with fan which is timed to come on a few times a day for a few minutes, which would create some air movement, and I have seen him become active when it comes on, sometimes basking under it; I suspect the air movement also alters the pattern of movement of airborne odour molecules, so creating a bit of novelty.

His main heat source is a DHP, but he has been less inclined to bask under it.
He more often basks under the T5 UV light, directly or cryptically.

Novelty scents in the viv has been limited to meal scent trails, and shed skins from the female Corn.

He has been enthusiastic with any food offered; mice, multimamates, occasional rat fuzzies/weeners, day old quail and even a day old chick, although at the time I thought it might hurt him, the bulge was soo big 😨

He has got a couple of exo terra hides, three cork rounds, including one suspended through a wooden pole, and a few raised branches, and shelves.
The water dish is a bit small to fully soak, but this is not something I’ve witnessed him doing, but he does drink from it reasonably regularly.

Ive yet to install a proper sky hide or moist hide. He did have a moist hide but only ever used it when the moss had dried out. I could also add more clutter; but this can complicate spot cleaning and he tended to avoid crawling through sprawling plants when he had fake plastic ones strewn across the decor.

Andy


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## Malc

Looking at the images IMO he is a tad underweight. The cross section of a corns body normally has a loaf of bread shape, ie straight vertical sides, and then a rounded back. They do not normally have the inverted Vee and a defined backbone as seen in these images... There's nothing in the images to give a true indication of scale, but as an estimate I would say he's quite capable of taking larger meals than what you are offering, even up to large weaner rats.


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## Swindinian

I hope he is tending towards lean, and not an underlying health issue, but I will be ramping up his food from Spring, and note how his look and tone varies.
It is something I’ve noted before. I don’t know how this compares to wild corns through the seasons, but I gather the view is the vast majority of captive snakes are overweight and storing excess fat (even when not visible externally).
I presume the only way to confirm is via dissection?
I haven‘t yet planned how I might brumate my corns, but is something I would consider in future, especially when I progress into keeping Z. Situla in the future.


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## Elly66

I have to agree with Malc, it's looking underweight. I've had 4 corns (only 1 now) and they've always been more round and reptile vets have always praised us on their condition. We generally feed weekly with around 30g rats/mice, though this time of year they refuse food so leave them a few weeks before trying again. 

I've never brumate them, but also never bred them. We use just a high wattage uva/uvb bulb for around 12hrs a day, no heat at night.
I definitely get a bigger bowl, a large ceramic dog bowl works well and corns love a good bathe. Don't overfil the viv though, they do like to stretch out.


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## Swindinian

Hi Elly66,

Have noted both yours and Malc’s observation on his profile 👍

Apart from neonates, I don’t feed any of my snakes weekly ; for health reasons not a cost cutting plan.

So the only suggestion RE: improvements is ‘increase his food intake’?

Andy


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## Elly66

Swindinian said:


> Hi Elly66,
> 
> Have noted both yours and Malc’s observation on his profile 👍
> 
> Apart from neonates, I don’t feed any of my snakes weekly ; for health reasons not a cost cutting plan.
> 
> So the only suggestion RE: improvements is ‘increase his food intake’?
> 
> Andy


No, the weight and feed was just a personal observation and mentioning how we've always done it. Our snakes have always been deemed as healthy and certainly not overweight. Everyone is going to do things differently though. 

As I said though, a larger water bowl and room to roam around the viv would be good.

If you have the space/height, then a raised area and a log attached to it could work and without taking out to much floor space. My corn is very active at the moment and roaming a lot. We only allow the snakes to be out of the vivs under strict controls, but we have open fireplace and cats and dogs so have to.


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## Malc

Feeding is always a contentious subject. Snakes that are less then 3 years old I feed weekly, adults are fed fortnightly unless they are being bred, reverting back to weekly feeds when say a female is building. The issue I find is that often people either feed too large a prey item, which can then increase the chances of fatty deposits being produced as the snake matures in "old age". Or they under feed the reptile with too smaller a prey item. When I used to keep corns, I would feed large mice when they were 3' + in length, moving up to weaner rats when 4'+ This would leave a bulge in them for 24-48 hrs but one that was not disproportional to its length.

Andy, can you give us some idea of the snakes length / weight and what you currently feed it and the weight of the food item. This would help in providing suggestions of a better feeding plan to bring his weight up slightly.


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## Swindinian

Sorry Elly, I clocked your suggestion about the bowl (and space), but then forgot when replying 🤦🏻 as the main concerns were about Noodle‘s weight.

I don’t like that bowl, so will consider larger options, which are easier to scrub 😉
I have never seen a corn bathe, but would enjoy the experience.

RE: the space
There is definitely a payoff for less clutter (especially for spot cleaning) but I gather lots of visual barriers can be beneficial for navigating around obstacles, varying textures, encouraging exploration and exercise, and a sense of security. Visually, it looks less aesthetically pleasing with the clutter. The fake cacti are also rather silly (came with a second hand viv).

Malc; 
Unless there is an underlying condition, or disease, the weight gain should be an easy fix!

I have intentionally dropped feeding frequency this winter for many of my snakes, and will ramp up across the season.

My understanding is that many reptiles undergo variation in metabolism and weight across the seasons, which is not something replicated in captivity, for various ethical, perceptual and best practise reasons.

I have heard of benefits of varying prey size and type, and of skipping meals, giving their GI, and other organs a rest. This does tend to refer more to boids rather than colubrids, but I envisage similar benefits.

I agree feeding can be very contentious.

Under weight is usually neglect or disease.
Over weight is usually us overindulging them, and far more common a problem.

I doubt I will get round to recording weighings, but will give an update on how he is doing in the future 😁


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## Elly66

Bert has a big ceramic dog bowl and we often see her in it. The bowl looks smaller in the pics, but she's a big girl at a good 5ft. Will have to weigh her. The downside of the big is how mucky she makes the water, so daily change essential. The shaping around her spine is only defined during muscle contraction, you can see the difference in the 2 pics.


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## Demonique

Malc said:


> Next there will be the post... "my snake is stuck under the floor boards - what can I do?"
> 
> Back in the day I did this with my large corn snake. We had a flat with a concrete floor so no issues of finding a gap in a wooden floor and disappearing. He was "exploring" the sofa, and I turned my back for like a minute whilst I changed the water in his viv. Next thing was he was gone... wasn't under the sofa, or any of the furniture, checked all rooms, nothing. Then we noticed a slight movement at the side of the sofa. So we were having to rip a £1500 sofa apart and extract the snake. Needless to say he was NEVER left un-attended again.


I left my first royal python unattended on the sofa, my father ended up having to cut into the sofa to get Jasper out, he found him in one of the arms. The sofa was due to be sent away to be reupholstered anyway (every couple of years it gets reupholstered in a new pattern) but even if it wasnt my father cut into the arms below the level of the sofa's padded cushions so the cuts wouldnt have been visible

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk


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## Swindinian

Little update with Noodle. Recently just shed and fed him tonight with a mouse. Left a scent trail and hid it up high. Took him about 30 minutes to track it down, then got so excited, he grabbed it by the bum, and tried to squash it, King snake style. 😁


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## Swindinian




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## ian14

That corn is seriously underweight.


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## arwen_7

Much smarter than my totall eejit of a kingsnake, who kept biting the cork bark rather than the mouse that was a few inches further along it the other night 😩


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## Swindinian

ian14 said:


> That corn is seriously underweight.


Well, that is three people stating so 🤔

Fed him a chick and a multi but then he went into a shed cycle, so not a substantial uptake since the previous photos.


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## ian14

Swindinian said:


> Well, that is three people stating so 🤔
> 
> Fed him a chick and a multi but then he went into a shed cycle, so not a substantial uptake since the previous photos.


There may well be an underlying reason why weight is so low.
Might be worth getting some samples checked.


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## Zincubus

Yikes ... the thought of having snakes roaming free gives me the skitty jitters !!

Unless it’s a specially prepared , snake escape-proof room .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Swindinian

Noodle enthusiastic again at meal time. Just a medium mouse this time. Dragged the meal for a bit of a scent trail, but then defaulted to waggle from tongs. Noodle’s elegant reaction 😁


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## Swindinian




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## Swindinian

And down the hatch……


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## Elly66

Swindinian said:


> And down the hatch……
> View attachment 361401


Looking at this picture, I'd say she could easily take bigger prey. Our adult corns easily swallow 30 - 40g mice and rats.


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## Swindinian

Elly66 said:


> Looking at this picture, I'd say she could easily take bigger prey. Our adult corns easily swallow 30 - 40g mice and rats.


Yep he could. I am out of large mice.

But he also had a medium multi afterwards (which my jungle carpet was afraid of 😂). 
I can already see a change in his body tone, just from the few meals recently.


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## Swindinian

A couple of poops cleared up, and Noodle is allowed out again today.
He was asking to come out, I am working from home, so I can accommodate.
He seems to be in an arboreal mood, and checking out skin sheds.
Body tone is coming along (seems it might just have been the reduced diet over the winter rather than underlying medical issues 🤞


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## Swindinian




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## Swindinian

Vertebrae still a bit prominent along his spin, and a slight slagging midriff towards the front.

And yes, the top is overdue a spring clean 🤫


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## Swindinian

a couple more pics of Noodle. Has been super restless recently
Pushing to come out, and very active. Good news is he has not spent any time exploring the bed over recent months.


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## Swindinian

Noodle being a sex pest around Amber’s viv.
She often watches him when he is free roaming, but this time she appeared to try to follow him


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## Swindinian




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## Swindinian

Chicks for dinner tonight. Although my male corn snake, Noodle, has gained back some mass, he still has a bit more tone to develop.
Is otherwise fit and lively 😁


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## Swindinian




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## Malc

Problem is there is not a lot in a day old chick. Large mice or weaner rats will soon bulk him out and restore his shape.


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## Swindinian

Acknowledged, but would still rather choose variety than just beef him up on fatty meals.

Have mostly been feeding him weekly, except when he goes into shed.


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## Swindinian

Noodle got a large weaner rat last weekend and seemed to digest it pretty quickly, but I didn’t see him out today. Which might mean he’s gone into shed again.


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## Swindinian

Noodle shed yesterday, but in multiple sections, and retained skin over his face. He didn’t like me removing it with damp kitchen role, and snorted a couple of times, especially when it tiggled his nostril. All good now, and ready for a bulk up again.


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## Elly66

Swindinian said:


> Noodle shed yesterday, but in multiple sections, and retained skin over his face. He didn’t like me removing it with damp kitchen role, and snorted a couple of times, especially when it tiggled his nostril. All good now, and ready for a bulk up again.
> View attachment 365243


Have you thought about putting a large ceramic dog bowl of water in? My corn will slither through theirs and has even curled up in it. I've noticed before that corns I've had seem to like water, whereas my Royal never seems to go near it.


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## Swindinian

Hi Ella,

Avoidable shedding problem, yes. I had let it get a bit dry that week. I was expecting him to shed in a day or two.

It has been on my mind about changing up Noodles water dish, since you last recommended it ☺

Noodle does certainly enjoy a good drink. I have never had corns which like to soak, although I am sure some do. It would make me wonder if temps are a bit high.

I have stockpiled various hides and bowls, but stored in the eaves, which is not easy to access, and my back has not been great recently. Excuses, excuses.

Once I have re-jigged some more ‘Vivs in waiting’, I was going to crawl through and retrieve items including bowls.


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## Elly66

I've never used anything else to add moisture to corn vivs (down to one now, but did have 4), just use a large ceramic dog bowl of water and shedding generally is fine. Heat provided by uva/uvb mercury vapour bulb during the day, no heat at night. Temperatures have been good. 

I'm lucky that him indoors does all the stuff my knackered body won't let me do 😉


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## Swindinian

He remains active and curious, but was more avoidant after the skin shedding assistance in the summer.

Following up from before, I did switch his water bowl, but for a deeper rather than larger bowl. He drinks from it but still no soaking observed.

Food wise, he has been regaining mass, but still a bit slender by comparison to captive norms. I have been giving him mostly small or large weaner rats, averaging about 3 meals a month.


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## Swindinian

A bit of noodle mountaineering in July


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## Swindinian

Switching water bowl (August?)


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## Swindinian

Quenching thirst, only after the free roaming session


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## Swindinian

Intelligence test: can he find the meal, if it isn’t waggled from forceps 😁


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## Swindinian

But he actually trained me to retrieve the meal and present to him 😂🤣😂


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## Swindinian

And ten minutes later he was nearly finished


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## Swindinian

Then in September he was due to shed, so I offered a moist hide (White Python egg laying box). A bit small, but it did the trick.


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## Swindinian

Very shortly after. Post shed.


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## Swindinian

Then some ’arboreal‘ puzzle finding


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## Swindinian

And our best impression of an Amazon tree boa


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## Swindinian

Final pics, just this evening, as he exits for a free roam about the bedroom


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## Swindinian

Noodle makes a stealthy beeline down to Amber’s viv for a sniff. And 1 hour later I find him again on my son’s bed, between the covers. Old habits die die 🙈


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## Swindinian

Feeding night again - another small weaner rat. I never thought I’d be feeding him mainly rats, but I was also surprised how long it has taken him to rebuild body tone after his lean times last year. 
I won’t scale back feeding this winter and see how he fairs.


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## ian14

He looks a LOT healthier!. He is a very handsome corn, and looks, physically, quite normal.


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## Elly66

Glad I've seen a picture and seen you comment on the white python box. I was looking at get one as a moss box for my Royal, but it looks tiny.

Great to see him looking more filled out.
My corn will easily take 40g rats and I feed weekly all year round. Only time I don't is when she goes into shed mode.


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## Swindinian

Elly66 said:


> Glad I've seen a picture and seen you comment on the white python box. I was looking at get one as a moss box for my Royal, but it looks tiny.


I know people were concerned for Noodle, and I said I would keep an update 😊

Reptile Centre were doing a special offer on the White Python nest box, so I thought I’d try it. 
I had a feeling it was a bit small for corns, but figured it could be useful for Antaresia or young rainbow boas, so not wasted money. I bought two. 
Both were a bit scuffed. At a later point, I checked another in a shop and that was also scuffed, so figured it was the manufacturing process, rather than poor handling.

I reckon a good place to get nest/hide boxes would be from ice cream shops. They have those long tubs, which they throw away, you might be able to get some for free. My dad got some which were grey rather than white, and I’ve asked if he could get me some. They might be a bit small for a larger royal, but worth looking out for.


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## Elly66

Swindinian said:


> I know people were concerned for Noodle, and I said I would keep an update 😊
> 
> Reptile Centre were doing a special offer on the White Python nest box, so I thought I’d try it.
> I had a feeling it was a bit small for corns, but figured it could be useful for Antaresia or young rainbow boas, so not wasted money. I bought two.
> Both were a bit scuffed. At a later point, I checked another in a shop and that was also scuffed, so figured it was the manufacturing process, rather than poor handling.
> 
> I reckon a good place to get nest/hide boxes would be from ice cream shops. They have those long tubs, which they throw away, you might be able to get some for free. My dad got some which were grey rather than white, and I’ve asked if he could get me some. They might be a bit small for a larger royal, but worth looking out for.


Currently I have a large plastic tub in the viv, but it looks horrible. Will have to keep an eye out for something and maybe find a good way to disguise it as he's going to need something a bit bigger soon.


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## Swindinian

Sometimes, when I offer for Noodle to come out, he doesn’t jump straight to it, but spends a bit of time sniffing around first. Reminds me of a cat, and how they appears to sometimes pause on a social confrontation by taking great interest in sniffing a spot on the ground 😁
Perhaps opening the doors disturbs odour molecules for him to re-investigate, or he just waits until he thinks I am not watching.
Giving him a bit of exercise before meal time tonight.


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## Swindinian

Excuse the mess


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## Swindinian

For for first time since letting noodle free roam, I couldn’t find him on Saturday. He normally settles under the bed. I figured he was behind some drawers and couldn’t be bothered to move it to check.

Fortunately it was feeding night, so I just took his meal, dipped it in hot water and blew odour molecules to where I thought he was. Whilst I fed some of the pythons, I heard the not so stealthy shuffling noises of a male corn snake climbing over packets and equipment, whilst trying to locate the source of the scent.

He emerged eventually with a bit of further encouragement, and once he grabbed n wrapped, I lifted him back into his viv. Phew 😁


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## Swindinian

Amber the younger Tessera female would also love to go free roaming (but I still feel like she is too small, and more likely to hide away if given the opportunity), and she often comes to me for meals. Not overly keen on her wiping the meal on the carpet though 🙈


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## Zincubus

All mine are in vivs with hides , branches , fake foliage and pieces of dried bark found in the local woods and forest - they provide even more hiding places . 

The only thing I do to keep things interesting is to randomly swap pieces of bark in between the ten vivariums and they appear to LOVE this idea … there’s always a lot of exploring and tongue flicking …

Note .. most of you guys probably know this but if you put branches in your vivs and RUBs your Royal pythons will be out climbing each evening ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Swindinian

Couple of recent pics of Noodle enjoying a nice drink.


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## Jibbajabba

I think if I’d let my boa free roam we’d be missing a cat very soon lol.


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## Swindinian

Jibbajabba said:


> I think if I’d let my boa free roam we’d be missing a cat very soon lol.


I reckon your beautiful boa could take out our sprocker spaniel, who was the runt so is pretty small, even for a cocker spaniel.


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## Swindinian

I sometimes feed from tongs, and sometimes leave a scent trail. This time I dabbed the meal across a few surfaces, and then placed on the cork round hanging top middle, knowing Noodle would play being a tree boa. I missed the shot where he got into a tree boa pose, so these were afterwards.



























and final check round to make sure all was devoured 😁


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