# Suspention incubation method...



## Gregg M

Introducing the SIM Incubation Container by Squamata Concepts!!!
The S.I.M. stands for Suspension Incubation Method relating to how the eggs are incubated on a platform off the substrate. 
This prohibits direct contact with a wet substrate and allows approximately 100% gas exchange between the container environment and the egg membrane.
Eggs incubated buried in dampened substrate are subjected to excess water which often results in drowning the egg(s). Also in contrast to this, too little water or humidity results in egg dessication. 
So basically, the eggs stay dry, still getting the humidity they need to develope. Infact, the steady humidity and consistant retention of heat in these containers allows neonates to develope faster resulting in shortend incubation times... Clutches incubated in this container have all hatched earlier than expected. All neonates hatched fully developed without egg yolks.
The triangular bars that you see on top of the grid platform are the eggs stabilizer bars. The function of these bars is to keep eggs from rolling or being uprooted by clutch mates and they are fully adjustable to fit just about any egg size.
























As you can see the SIM incubation containers are crystal clear. The idea behind them being so clear is so the eggs can be visually monitored without having to tamper with the container at all. One way to insure that your eggs will hatch is to set them in their proper incubation container put the container in a proper incubator and leave them alone...
The SIM was made with this very idea in mind...


----------



## Windy

great idea :2thumb: how much are these and from where ?


----------



## mrhoyo

And how big are the tubs?


----------



## paulh

I agree that excess water in the substrate can drown any eggs. And, IMO, no substrate is the best way to incubate eggs from maternal incubators like royal pythons, green tree pythons, and others. But I would not use it for North American colubrids like corn snakes, king snakes, or bullsnakes which have eggs that are normally more or less buried in the wild. For these, actually measuring the amount of substrate and the amount of water and keeping to a 1:1 ratio by weight is the best way to avoid excess water.


----------



## Gregg M

paulh said:


> I would not use it for North American colubrids like corn snakes, king snakes, or bullsnakes which have eggs that are normally more or less buried in the wild.


What is your base for this conclusion??? Have you had experience using this container to hatch North American colubrids???

Also remind me how snakes bury their eggs... Not sure what that statement has to do with this incubation method...

We have hatched several species of lizard (they actually bury their eggs) with a 100% hatch rate thus far... Not really sure where you were going with that post or where you are getting your captive incubation info from...

Anyway the containers are 8X7X4 1/2... Our company is based in the US but our containers are available world wide...


----------



## Paul Chase

sounds good to me. How much are they???


----------



## Schip

Depending on which species of bird I was incubating my incubator conditions would be set up to accommodate their needs. Waterfowl eggs were still incubated in a hovbator with lots of water and an added container for hatching with manual turning. Parrots would be incubated in a fully automated incubator ie Curfew with humidity, turning and forced air all automated with humidity settings for each species programmed in. Amazons are horrific evaporators so needed higher humidity to maintain their 13% loss evenly over the incubation period, Greys and macaws on the other hand didn't have the same issues so had a lower humidity setting.

I have however incubated parrots in still air same as my fowl again adjusting humidity according to species for the whole incubator. My reptile eggs go on a substrate with a low water content just for something to hold them in place, I then adjust incubator humidity, the only failed hatches I've had were deformed young.

Please explain to me why you would need such a tray and how you separate eggs to get them in the tray in many cases you can pick up the whole clutch in one go due to sticking when laid?


----------



## Kev132

id be interested in giving a couple a go... PM me with how much they are and who to get them from please...

cheers


----------



## alan1

8" x 7" x 4.5" is too small for a decent sized royal clutch... maybe you should make a larger version (12" x 8" x 7"), seeing as royals are the most popular snake on the planet...

also... why are you keeping quiet on the price??? 
surely, the way to sell these (or not), is to let potential customers know the cost...


----------



## Akua_Ko_Nalu

alan1 said:


> 8" x 7" x 4.5" is too small for a decent sized royal clutch... maybe you should make a larger version (12" x 8" x 7"), seeing as royals are the most popular snake on the planet...


I agree, you'd find it hard to fit more than a 3-4 egg clutch in that, and that's a squeeze!

Personally, I've made my own incubator using no substrate using 9L RUB's and egg crate to raise the eggs up. Works a treat, and costing £200 for everything, Fridge, Tubs, Heat Mats, Thermostats, Egg Crate.


----------



## GlasgowGecko

Gregg M said:


> What is your base for this conclusion??? Have you had experience using this container to hatch North American colubrids???
> 
> Also remind me how snakes bury their eggs... Not sure what that statement has to do with this incubation method...
> 
> We have hatched several species of lizard (they actually bury their eggs) with a 100% hatch rate thus far... Not really sure where you were going with that post or where you are getting your captive incubation info from...
> 
> Anyway the containers are 8X7X4 1/2... Our company is based in the US but our containers are available world wide...


Whilst I think that the product looks good, I think you should be prepared to answer questions in a less confrontational manner, not every one is going to think this is a great idea, and I am sure that it is not without flaws (what product is). Many people will use a substrate incubation technique with 100% success rate, for all the species you have mentioned, and although you have suggested decreased incubation time for certain species, I suspect that this has not been proven for all species (or if it has been proven for any). I would like to see some of your data on these claims, if this were true, it would make a very interesting paper. However the volume of data you would need would be large.

As for snakes burying their eggs, are you suggesting that in a natural environment they simply deposit them on the surface exposed to the elements?

Andy


----------



## elchopchop

Some good discussion on this thread, but (as mentioned before) prices might spark a bit more interest. :2thumb:


----------



## Gregg M

Thanks for looking... I will try to answer your questions as best as I can...

This incubation system differs from others in a few ways... Virtually anything that holds humidity can be used in this container. We have used a 50/50 ratio of water to perlite, wet vermiculite, water crystals, perlite water crystal mix, just water, and even a sponge... Everything we used as a substrate worked and we have had a 100% hatch rate so far this season... Eggs are never sitting in damp substrates and the eggs are also able to take in oxygen and expell carbon dioxide at a higher rate being that they are not being smothered in a substrate...

It differs from other "no substrate" container as well... The grid that the eggs sit on is not even touching the humidity holding substrate... The grid is suspended above the substrate... Also we are utilizing the full adjustable triangular egg stabilizer bars... These snap firmly into place and does not allow the eggs to roll or shift... All bars can be removed so you can incubate clumped clutches as well... Plus this is the first ever, ready to use, incubation container ever put into production... And it is also dish washer safe... LOL

The reason I am not giving a price is because this is not a classified ad... I am introducing a product... The containers are not going to be available for sale until the the Daytona Fl show in 2 weeks...

On to snakes egg deposition in the wild...

Obviously snakes do not have appendages make borrows or to dig nests... The use rodent burrows, hollow logs, bambo shoots, and other areas that are not without ventelation... These are spots where the eggs will have a much higher rare of gas exchange than if they had substrate covering them...

Hope this answers some questions for now... More data on the way...


----------



## hogboy

Gregg, will you be producing larger versions for ball python eggs ?


----------



## Gregg M

hogboy said:


> Gregg, will you be producing larger versions for ball python eggs ?


Yes, in early 2010 we will be offering a large container for python eggs.

More on the product...

Clumped clutches can easily be incubated in this container when you remove the stabilization bars... They are fully adjustable and removable... You can incubate your clumped clutches directly on the flat grid... We tried to think of everything when we designed this container...

Tonight I will also give some detailed data on some of the clutches hatched on these containers including temps, hatch rate and duration of incubation...

Thanks again for looking...


----------



## shep1979

it would be good to let us all know the prices and how much shipping will be , most people on hear wont be going to the show in the USA so why not just start selling them to us in the UK ?


----------



## Gregg M

If anyone wants to know the price of the container, feel free to contanct me via PM... Thank you...


----------



## alan1

Gregg M said:


> If anyone wants to know the price of the container, feel free to contanct me via PM... Thank you...


speaking for quite a few people here (i've had p.m's about this)... 

WHY THE BIG SECRET ON THE PRICE? surely they're not "that" expensive? even if they are, if they do the job properly, then the price would be justified...

as said, i've been p.m'd by various people, basically saying "why is'nt the guy putting prices up" - "whats he trying to hide" - "why's he being evasive"?

surely, if you want to sell as many as possible, ALL questions should be answered (on the thread), so that everyone can judge for themselves...


also, have you got a "projected" price and size on the larger one thats "in the pipeline"?... thanks...


----------



## paulh

Gregg M said:


> What is your base for this conclusion??? Have you had experience using this container to hatch North American colubrids???
> 
> Also remind me how snakes bury their eggs... Not sure what that statement has to do with this incubation method...
> 
> We have hatched several species of lizard (they actually bury their eggs) with a 100% hatch rate thus far... Not really sure where you were going with that post or where you are getting your captive incubation info from...


I have never used your container to hatch North American colubrids because it is not on the market yet. My conclusions are based on my experience with different incubation methods. 

I have found snake eggs in depressions under boards and rocks sitting on the bare ground where they can absorb water directly from the substrate. Wright and Wright's Handbook of Snakes also has a considerable amount of information.

My first few clutches of colubrid eggs (bullsnake, western fox snake, hognose snake) were incubated on a layer of damp paper towels with another layer of damp paper towels on top. This is not a no-substrate method, but it is closer than partly burying them in Vermiculite. Most of the eggs hatched, but dehydration was a constant problem. When I switched to putting the eggs in Vermiculite, I got better hatches (up to 100%) and only had to check the eggs weekly. I have also saved some severely dehydrated bullsnake eggs (laid at the local zoo) by burying them in Vermiculite.

On the other hand, my experience is that putting green tree python eggs in Vermiculite is the kiss of death.

My point is that not all snake eggs have the same requirements. Some do very well in no-substrate incubation, and others do not do as well. Catering to the eggs' requirements is more likely to give good results than a one size fits all technique.


----------



## Gregg Madden

alan1 said:


> WHY THE BIG SECRET ON THE PRICE? surely they're not "that" expensive? even if they are, if they do the job properly, then the price would be justified...


There is no big secret... I have said in this thread, if anyone wants to know the price, they can PM me and I will tell them... As I said a couple of times, I will not put a price in this thread because it is not a classified ad... My post on this product on a different forum was deleted because I talked price in it... Thats why I will not give a price on the thread...

Not sure why anyone would PM you asking these questions when they can PM me and get the answers they are looking for...

*****So please, if anyone has any question on the price of this container contact me via PM...*****

Paul, thanks for your post... You might be suprized at the species hatched in these containers... Some species that do not normally do well on "no substrate" incubation have hatched with 100% success so far... It has more to do with the amount of water in the container than it has to do with the surface they are incubated on in this particular container... What I was getting at is your conclusions on the methods you have used really have nothing to do with this container... Sorry if I came of a bit harsh in my original reply...


----------



## fuzzielady

Looks like it could be a great product. 



Is there a reason you have 2 accounts:whistling2:


----------



## shep1979

well ive sent a PM days ago and still not got a reply :whistling2:


----------



## alan1

Gregg M said:


> Tonight (08/08/09) I will also give some detailed data on some of the clutches hatched on these containers including temps, hatch rate and duration of incubation...


we're still waiting...


----------



## Ssthisto

Gregg Madden said:


> My post on this product on a different forum was deleted because I talked price in it...


And this forum isn't that forum, and mentioning a price won't get the thread locked or deleted.

As others have said, since the vast majority of people on this forum quite simply won't bother going to Daytona (due to the prohibitive expense of bringing one or two personal pets back across the Atlantic) we won't see your incubator tubs at any show. So everyone's looking for a numeric price - and when someone IS essentially posting an advert for their product *minus *price (otherwise, what else is a "this is the incubator tub that I'm making for general production"), it makes one think "Well, if they're making me ask privately what the price is, I almost certainly can't afford the price or the shipping to the United Kingdom."


----------



## shep1979

i got a reply from him they are $20 each but he dont know wot shipping will be


----------



## jimmus

Cool idea, will be good to see these available in UK :2thumb:

Might even try to knock a homemade version up and trial a few eggs in 2010, vermiculite = so much mess lol

My only worry is that if you were to use only water, it might get a bit stagnant over 2 months? Could be tricky trying to replace water in 5, 10, or 20 tubs depending on what your incubating!


----------



## Gaboon

Great product!! Good luck with it!


----------



## diane014

off the topic but does this guy have 2 accounts as he comes up as gregg m and gregg madden?


----------



## iangreentree

i was going to say why dont people make there own like dave said for less then |£200 u can have tubs,crates,heatmats etc even if u just want tubs and crate u can gice containers for a £1 and create for a couple of pounds job done:2thumb:


----------



## Captainmatt29

does this member have 2 accounts?


----------



## alan1

Gregg M said:


> Tonight (08/08/09) I will also give some detailed data on some of the clutches hatched on these containers including temps, hatch rate and duration of incubation...


2 weeks later... we're still waiting !!!


----------



## digitalxspace

Come on guys dont waste your money on that crap! make your own, not much to it really lol and a lot less than what is cost to buy those


----------



## Gregg M

digitalxspace said:


> Come on guys dont waste your money on that crap!


I get that not everyone will fall in love with our product, but this comment is way uncalled for... I am not sure how anyone can call this product crap when the fact is, the container is very well made and durable... It is also being used by some of the best and biggest breeders here in the U.S.

It is also going to be used in a zoo in Costa Rica and in the Canary Islands... Surely not what one would expect from a crap product...

What is obviously being missed here is the science behind this particular design and the fact that materials to try and duplicate this system will cost equal to or more than this product... Plus being that these are our original molds there is nothing available you can use to duplicate this product or its proper function...

Sorry I have not been around for a while but we were getting prepared for the first public release of our product... There was a lot of hard work and time that went into this product, so it is not good to see someone call it crap especially when they have never seen the product in person, held it in their hands, or used it... If they did any of those, they certainly would not call it crap... If anyone here is going to the Hamm show, you will be able to see the product in person...

Anyway, the public release of this product has been a great success so far... Thank you all for your comments and PMs... DATA is on the way...


----------



## cordylidae

Gregg M said:


> I get that not everyone will fall in love with our product, but this comment is way uncalled for... I am not sure how anyone can call this product crap when the fact is, the container is very well made and durable... It is also being used by some of the best and biggest breeders here in the U.S.
> 
> It is also going to be used in a zoo in Costa Rica and in the Canary Islands... Surely not what one would expect from a crap product...
> 
> What is obviously being missed here is the science behind this particular design and the fact that materials to try and duplicate this system will cost equal to or more than this product... Plus being that these are our original molds there is nothing available you can use to duplicate this product or its proper function...
> 
> Sorry I have not been around for a while but we were getting prepared for the first public release of our product... There was a lot of hard work and time that went into this product, so it is not good to see someone call it crap especially when they have never seen the product in person, held it in their hands, or used it... If they did any of those, they certainly would not call it crap... If anyone here is going to the Hamm show, you will be able to see the product in person...
> 
> Anyway, the public release of this product has been a great success so far... Thank you all for your comments and PMs... DATA is on the way...


i think he meant more thatthe pricing was high it would be easy just to build your ownmorethanthe product is badessentialy its easy to make so i cant see why not it isnt abad product but you need to accept this isnt viable for certain species and that not everyone will like it
people are bound the see it and make their own you havent helped the situation by holding back on the price so long


----------



## Gregg M

rase0121 said:


> i think he meant more that the pricing was high it would be easy just to build your own more than the product is bad essentialy its easy to make so i cant see why not it isnt a bad product but you need to accept this isnt viable for certain species and that not everyone will like it
> people are bound the see it and make their own you havent helped the situation by holding back on the price so long


The price is not high... Like I said the system can not be duplicated being that the molds are all original and the size a spacing of everything was not just thrown together... There was a long time of testing and tweaking to get it to the point it is at now...

Also what is your statement of this system not being viable for certain species being based on??? Is it based on any factual data or is it based on something that someone said who has never used this system???

I never held back the price on the container... I simply did not talk price in the thread because it was not a classified ad... Anyone who PMed me got the price of the container right away... It really makes no difference on when or how the price was known because the product was not made available to the public before last weekend anyway...

So what are you paying the 20 bucks for???
You are getting a proven method that will increase hatch rates and shorten incubation times... There is no making, building, or modification of any parts... You get everything you need in one package... You will no longer have to worry if your eggs are getting the right amount of humidity or not...
The 20 bucks you spend gives you a really cool looking, well made product, that is fuctional and worry free...

This container is very far from "crap"...


----------



## Captainmatt29

shorten incubation times? i cant see how that works especially with leopard gecko eggs as the temps are used to determine sex like males hatch faster than females in an ideal world so it wouldnt bare any additional use.


----------



## Gregg M

messengermatt said:


> shorten incubation times? i cant see how that works especially with leopard gecko eggs as the temps are used to determine sex like males hatch faster than females in an ideal world so it wouldnt bare any additional use.


This is where the science of this container comes into play...

The increased oxygen that the egg takes in during incubation on these containers causes the embryo to form faster and allows it to develop fully before it hatches... The temperature during incubation is NOT the factor here... Here just one example... 

We tested Varanus tristis eggs... We have a female who lays 4 clutches a year.... The first and third clutches were incubated using the conventional method (eggs half burried in perlite)... We used a 50/50 ratio perlite to water at 86 dgrees f... Both clutches piped on day 99 and fully hatched on day 100... 3 neonates hatched with egg yolks in the first clutch and 2 had yolks in the third clutch... 2 hatchlings never made it out of the egg...

The second and fourth clutches from the same female were incubated in the SIM container with the same water to perlite ratio and incubation temps... Both clutches piped at 89 days and fully hatched on day 90... 100% of the neonates hatched out without egg yolks... They were fully developed and stronger to start than the neonates from the first and third clutch...

This is just one season from one of the many species tested against the traditional method... I can provide more data on other species if requested...

Thanks for the questions and replies...


----------



## Captainmatt29

I wouldnt want to rush any of my eggs to be honest, it comes across as this device basically rushes your eggs development so you get results faster but wait.......im pretty sure there are implications of rushing such things. personally i prefer to wait as it adds to the suspense.

Deformaties etc, and as leopard gecko eggs and others are laid into the earth in the wild why would we want to suspend them in mid air ?

I really dont see how you can speed certain eggs up, a baby comes when its ready not when we are ready right ?

Effectively this device would be pushing nature to its limits wouldnt it ?


----------



## Johnantny

Hello,

I am the co-designer and producer of the S.I.M. Container and I have data for those who are interested. I keep 1.3 ackies, 1.1 tristis and a few other dwarf monitors. I also operate cybersalvator.com, the water monitor website.

Ackies:

3 clutches incubated in the S.I.M. Container. Substrate for clutch #1= 50/50 perlite water by weight. Clutch #2= perlite mixed with water crystals, unmeasured. Clutch #3= drenched perlite squeezed out excess water.

Clutch # 1 - Varanus acanthurus brachyurus- pipped 106 days

Clutch # 2 - same species, different mother, same father- pipped 104 days

Clutch # 3 - same species, different mother, same father- pipped 106 days

At this temp, 86F, 1/2 buried clutches tend to go 115 days or more. My babies hatched fully developed and without a yolk sac or remnant of.

Varanus tristis tristis:

4 clutches, clutch #1 and #3 = 1/2 buried in the substrate 50/ 50 perlite and water by weight. 
Clutch #2, #4- in S.I.M. Container with 50/50 perlite to water by weight. All eggs from all varanus species incubated at 86F. 

The eggs from clutch 2,4- pipped 89-90 days, hatched 90-91 days. 

Eggs in 1/2 buried in substrate pipped 99 days, hatched 100 days. 1st clutch had 3 babies had egg sac remnants, clutch #2, 2 babies had egg sac remnants. One baby from clutch #1, #3 failed to pip. 


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2631/3778659378_99bdd2ea13_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2624/3778675840_a2e1dac1d2_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2613/3778659332_e37e06988f_o.jpg

Data shows eggs are pipping earlier than buried clutches and in shorter incubation time. This is likely due to the eggs absorbing Oxygen freely, without a barrier of CO2 surrounding the egg substrate. The babies are fully formed, with absorbed yolk in their fat round bellies. Buried clutches run the risk of too much water, too little water being absorbed, and excessive CO2 in the substrate. The S.I.M. is a safer incubation method overall. 

The squamataconcepts.com website will be up next week to handle orders and provide information. We can ship to Europe. We are adding a forum to the site in hopes you share your incubation experiences, and provide useful data. As of today, within the states, we have customers using this method on a variety of species, including heladerma, cyclura, and varanus, also, pythons, colubrids, and assorted turtles and tortoises. Once results are in, the customers can relay their data to the site users. 

Feel free to stop in and see for yourselves. A friend / customer just hatched green iguana eggs in this container today. Pictures will be up on the site.

Thanks for your time,

John


----------



## GlasgowGecko

Hey Guys, some interesting points being raised here, but I have a couple of things to add.

Temperature determines the metabolic rate of yolk and albumen utilization and hence embryo development during incubation, this has been shown on numerous occasions, although it has been suggested that temperature may have a divergent effect during the course of incubation with constant higher temperatures initially accelerating embryonic growth (and the subsequent utilization of nutrients and energy from yolk and albumen) but decreases embryonic growth later in development. My understanding of what you are saying is that later in incubation, metabolic processes are limited by the insufficient exchange of oxygen. However current experiments in birds have shown that increased 02 concentration has no effect on hatch time, or mortality. Obviously I am not naive enough to suggest that this means that reptiles will not show differences, but I would be very interested to see some of the papers you have based the product on.

As for your data, it seems interesting. One thing I would suggest is to try and get as many independent replicates of the tests you have carried out for the same species, this will eventually allow you to do some simple (but effective) statistics which will hopefully give the product a boost.

I'd be very interested to know the price (in the UK inc shipping etc...) if you wouldnt mind PMing me.

Andy


----------



## Gregg M

GlasgowGecko said:


> However current experiments in birds have shown that increased 02 concentration has no effect on hatch time, or mortality. Obviously I am not naive enough to suggest that this means that reptiles will not show differences, but I would be very interested to see some of the papers you have based the product on.
> 
> Andy


Hello Andy, 
First I would like to thank you for you educated post and open mindedness in regard to our product...

I would like to point out that we are not incubating bird eggs in the container, we are incubatating reptile eggs... Some common species and some species that are seldom reproduced in captivity... The pysiological differences between bird eggs and reptile eggs are vast...

It is proven that too little oxygen and too much carbon dioxide negatively affects ebryotic and neonative development...

Too much carbon dioxide and not enough oxygen has been documented to cause reptiles to hatch prematurely and under-developed... It also causes embyotic death...

Increased oxygen intake and proper carbon dioxide ventilation has proven to yield fully developed, healthier, stronger, more robust hatchlings... Again, this has nothing to do with heat... 

As I have noted before, most reptiles do not bury their eggs... Most reptile eggs are layed in and around areas where they are not being smothered by substrates and can get the proper amount of oxygen needed for development... 

Honestly our results speak for themselves and the results from our customers will speak even louder... There are numerous species being tested on the SIM by some of the top breeders in the world...

As far as messengermatts statements go, it would really help if you did some research on reptile egg incubation in the wild and in captivity before you try to raise an argument on how this system is useless or not good... Seriously, how can you say something is no good if you have not used it or seen results from it??? I am not sure what you have based your opinion on, but it seems like you are trying to fault something know nothing about... I am also wondering where your breeding and hatching experience lies...

Between john and myself, we have 40+ years of experience keeping and breeding reptiles from cornsnakes to gaboon vipers and geckos to large monitor lizards... We have seen many problems with the conventional way of incubating over the years... What we are doing by releasing this product to the public is improving the way we incubate reptile eggs and to help breeders and hobbists to produce stronger, healthier reptiles...


----------



## cordylidae

Gregg M said:


> The price is not high... Like I said the system can not be duplicated being that the molds are all original and the size a spacing of everything was not just thrown together... There was a long time of testing and tweaking to get it to the point it is at now...
> 
> im not saying that it was just thrown together but something simailar could be made for less money
> 
> Also what is your statement of this system not being viable for certain species being based on??? Is it based on any factual data or is it based on something that someone said who has never used this system???
> 
> so this will be viable for every egglaying species there is then,ofcourse if wont and you cannot prove it will the information about hatch rates and times need alot more data to be proven and all other factors inc temperature, humidity etc need to be exactly the same to prove this you need to repeat these tests alot for the data to be accurate as different eggs can take longer to develop under the same conditions im not saying that this incubation method does not decrease or change egg hatching time or mortality im saying before you make these claims you need to have more data to prve it
> 
> I never held back the price on the container... I simply did not talk price in the thread because it was not a classified ad... Anyone who PMed me got the price of the container right away... It really makes no difference on when or how the price was known because the product was not made available to the public before last weekend anyway...
> 
> So what are you paying the 20 bucks for???
> You are getting a proven method that will increase hatch rates and shorten incubation times... There is no making, building, or modification of any parts... You get everything you need in one package... You will no longer have to worry if your eggs are getting the right amount of humidity or not...
> The 20 bucks you spend gives you a really cool looking, well made product, that is fuctional and worry free...
> 
> but for the same money you could make about ten of these
> 
> This container is very far from "crap"...



sorry for any typos:lol2:


----------



## GlasgowGecko

Gregg M said:


> I would like to point out that we are not incubating bird eggs in the container, we are incubatating reptile eggs... Some common species and some species that are seldom reproduced in captivity... The pysiological differences between bird eggs and reptile eggs are vast...
> 
> It is proven that too little oxygen and too much carbon dioxide negatively affects ebryotic and neonative development...
> 
> Too much carbon dioxide and not enough oxygen has been documented to cause reptiles to hatch prematurely and under-developed... It also causes embyotic death...
> 
> *Increased oxygen intake and proper carbon dioxide ventilation has proven to yield fully developed, healthier, stronger, more robust hatchlings... Again, this has nothing to do with heat...*
> ..


Thanks for your reply, I have a couple of responses;

Firstly, I would contest the point that the physiological differences between birds eggs and reptile eggs are vast. They are in actuality very similar. In fact it is arguably the case that soft/ leathery shelled reptile eggs are more different to hard shelled reptile eggs, than the latter is to birds eggs. I obviously realise though that this container is not designed for birds eggs, however the research carried on birds eggs is quite appropriate.

The second two points I will not contest however I would also suggest that the current method is providing the correct amount of 02 and C02.

The final point is the most interesting, I would truely like to see the data for this, but will say that the process of 02 uptake is intrinsically linked to temperature.

Andy


----------



## Gregg M

GlasgowGecko said:


> Thanks for your reply, I have a couple of responses;
> 
> Firstly, I would contest the point that the physiological differences between birds eggs and reptile eggs are vast. They are in actuality very similar.


You can contest it all you like, but it does not change the fact that the physiology between the two are very different... In fact, one of the most well known differences is that bird eggs need to be rotated and reptile eggs can not be rotated...


----------



## lizard queen

hmmm, these sound interesting. i always find it frustrating when people are convinced that hatchling success rate is always temperature dependent, and they never even consider gaseous exchange. i'd but interested in giving these a try, and you're entitled to charge anything you want after all you guys have conceived, designed, tested and constructed these things and rightly so deserve to make a profit on them. For those who think they're too expensive, don't buy them, and next time your selling your hatchlings don't forget they cost you nothing to make, so surly they should be free....


----------



## Jazz

Personally I've nothing to say either for or against the product having never used it, but I wouldn't buy regardless.

I wasn't going to say anything but I read your comment before you edited it. Being so rude and confrontational is not the way to gain customers. I don't know how you conduct business in the US, but in the UK we find being polite to potential customers is a much more successful way of getting them to part with their money.

Also, I can understand you may feel pride for what you've come up with, but you might want to try sounding a little less defensive when someone questions it.

If nothing else, its good business sense. There's no rules to say you have to like your (potential) customers, but it helps if you pretend to.


----------



## Gregg M

Jazz said:


> Personally I've nothing to say either for or against the product having never used it, but I wouldn't buy regardless.
> 
> I wasn't going to say anything but I read your comment before you edited it. Being so rude and confrontational is not the way to gain customers.


Well I did Edit my post so that should say something... 

What can I say... I am only human and it is hard to sit and watch people call it "crap" on a public forum when they have no idea how the product works... 
Did the people calling it "crap" consider the amount of hard work and money it took to get a product out there to help reptile keepers and breeders to better their hatch rates???

Obviously the ones calling it crap were not potential customers... After all, they are going to make "10 of these" themselves for less than what we are selling one for...

lizard queen,
Thank you for your support and your comments...


----------



## alan1

Gregg M said:


> Well I did Edit my post so that should say something...
> 
> What can I say... I am only human and it is hard to sit and watch people call it "crap" on a public forum when they have no idea how the product works...
> Did the people calling it "crap" consider the amount of hard work and money it took to get a product out there to help reptile keepers and breeders to better their hatch rates???
> 
> Obviously the ones calling it crap were not potential customers... After all, they are going to make "10 of these" themselves for less than what we are selling one for...
> 
> lizard queen,
> Thank you for your support and your comments...


you have to expect both "positive and negative" comments, although i agree, some could choose their words more carefully...

looks like a decent enough product... having said that tho, i'll continue to incubate "my way"...


----------



## Gregg M

alan1 said:


> you have to expect both "positive and negative" comments, although i agree, some could choose their words more carefully...
> 
> looks like a decent enough product... having said that tho, i'll continue to incubate "my way"...


Thank you Alan.


----------



## Captainmatt29

on further investigation i found that these can be made at home for the fraction of the price using a braplast tub, i also believe that Glasgow Gecko is correct about the issues raised regarding "physiological differences between birds eggs and reptile eggs".

I wont be rushing my babies along and am happy with my current incubation method.

so for these reasons i'm out


----------



## Jazz

It was that you edited it rather than outright apologising. Each to their own, but I feel that would have been better that even if you did edit, a quick apology for what you had typed would go further towards convincing us you did it to be genuine (or the appearance of it) than as a quick cover up for something that would not go in your favour.

Anyway, yes calling it crap was unfair but you're not going to please everyone. I'm afraid it's a matter of taking it on the chin and politely explaining benefits to those who are interested. Respectfully word replies to enquiries and be as open and upfront as possible.

The 'crap' comments are not worth your attention. You wouldn't have these people as customers initially anyway as you say. But who knows, if other people use your product and have positive things to say about it, maybe they'll change their mind one day.

They won't ever change their mind if their initial experience is a bad impression. Unfortunately people remember that kind of thing too easily.

And only one person outright called it crap if I remember correctly(not to say others haven't agreed). Of course they probably didn't consider any of the actual work that may have gone into this. That's the point. Its not a thought out conclusion, it's probably just a knee-jerk reaction. The worst thing you can do is retaliate with a knee-jerk reaction of your own. I know you're only human, we all are; and as an artist I know how awful it feels when someone doesn't like something you create, but you really need to step back count to ten then formulate an emotionally neutral and informative reply if you feel the need to defend what you are trying to sell.

I'm really not trying to be an a*** here. I think the idea certainly warrants attention but you've got more chance of winning some more of us over to trying it if you don't start off on a bad foot by taking negative comments too personally.

I'll apologise now for any typos, run on sentences and the like, it's late an I'm half asleep.


----------



## marcgroovyge

My concern would be the many holes. Hatchling legs and a flooring like that is a recipe for disaster if you ask me. Especially as their bones havent formed.

also in reference to the no CO2 comment, Its impossible to neutralise CO2 unless you pump pure oxygen into the incubator which will damage the embryo.

I agree that the comment about this being crap was out of order but a tub like that would waste a lot of space inside any incubator and also would not be suitable for every reptile egg.

My own opinion is that i could make a safer cheap version of that with a plastic tub and cocktail sticks, which would be made correctly for individual sized eggs layed by reptiles without all the holes!


----------



## Captainmatt29

marcgroovyge said:


> My concern would be the many holes. Hatchling legs and a flooring like that is a recipe for disaster if you ask me. Especially as their bones havent formed.
> 
> also in reference to the no CO2 comment, Its impossible to neutralise CO2 unless you pump pure oxygen into the incubator which will damage the embryo.
> 
> I agree that the comment about this being crap was out of order but a tub like that would waste a lot of space inside any incubator and also would not be suitable for every reptile egg.
> 
> My own opinion is that i could make a safer cheap version of that with a plastic tub and cocktail sticks, which would be made correctly for individual sized eggs layed by reptiles without all the holes!


I agree, a leo's leg would fall down one of those holes and it'd hurt itself :gasp:


----------



## alan1

messengermatt said:


> I agree, a leo's leg would fall down one of those holes and it'd hurt itself :gasp:


suppose you could use a few layers of kitchen roll?


----------



## marcgroovyge

But thats a substrate....


----------



## Captainmatt29

alan1 said:


> suppose you could use a few layers of kitchen roll?



Yes you could use that however you would then be putting the eggs onto a form of medium that would defeat the object of how the product would work


----------



## Gregg M

marcgroovyge said:


> My concern would be the many holes. Hatchling legs and a flooring like that is a recipe for disaster if you ask me. Especially as their bones havent formed.


This is why it it not safe to make assumptions... The spaces that make up the grid are only 5mm... Not large enough for a hatchling leopard gecko to get its leg caught up and cause injury... There have been leos hatched on this as well as dwarf monitors and there has been no issue...



marcgroovyge said:


> also in reference to the no CO2 comment, Its impossible to neutralise CO2 unless you pump pure oxygen into the incubator which will damage the embryo.


When eggs are in a substrate, the carbon dioxide builds up around the egg and the egg surface is not exposed enough to take in as much oxygen... With this system, being that the eggs are not in a substrate, the carbon dioxide moves away from the egg and 100% of the eggs surface can take in oxygen...



marcgroovyge said:


> I agree that the comment about this being crap was out of order but a tub like that would waste a lot of space inside any incubator and also would not be suitable for every reptile egg.


Thanks...
Surely a container that helps hatch rate would not be a waste of space in any incubator...
Also, can you please name one species this would not work with and the source of that information... There seems to be much more speculation than actual proof being thrown around...



marcgroovyge said:


> My own opinion is that i could make a safer cheap version of that with a plastic tub and cocktail sticks, which would be made correctly for individual sized eggs layed by reptiles without all the holes!


Like I have said, every aspect and part of this container has a particular function... The bars in this container are fully adjustable to fit any egg size...


----------



## cordylidae

Gregg M said:


> This container is very far from "crap"...


i havent said it is crap sorry if i have came across that way but i have only pointed out things to you as said by other member the legs thing is an issue hence why it wouldnt be viable for certain species like smaller geckos athought i suppose you could supply a fine mesh to solve it with minimal change to the product 

also im not saying that the container doesnt change incubation times etc what im saying is before you can make claims etc you should have more data to prove it (before i believe it anyway but i could well be wrong) also read this http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ygen informtion&pg=PA281#v=onepage&q=&f=false

tbh the way it has been made look good but its just whether or not the theory behind it is correct as to your response about me making ten etc i didnt say that they would be of the same quality as your but they would work all the same there no need to respond to people how you have you have to accept that your product wont be for everyone



Gregg M said:


> It is proven that too little oxygen and too much carbon dioxide negatively affects ebryotic and neonative development...
> 
> Too much carbon dioxide and not enough oxygen has been documented to cause reptiles to hatch prematurely and under-developed... It also causes embyotic death...
> 
> Increased oxygen intake and proper carbon dioxide ventilation has proven to yield fully developed, healthier, stronger, more robust hatchlings... Again, this has nothing to do with heat...
> 
> As I have noted before, most reptiles do not bury their eggs... Most reptile eggs are layed in and around areas where they are not being smothered by substrates and can get the proper amount of oxygen needed for development...
> 
> Honestly our results speak for themselves and the results from our customers will speak even louder... There are numerous species being tested on the SIM by some of the top breeders in the world...


what you have stated there is that to little will affect but surely once there is enough for a healthy hatchling then the more there should be no difference anyway i have nothing further to say on the product until more reliable data has been collected if i am wrong i am more than happy to apolagise to you on this thread


----------



## Gregg M

Photos speak louder than words...

Another species hatching on the SIM....

_Iguana iguana (Green Iguana)_

_







_

_







_

_







_

_Keep a close eye on this thread because there will be many more photos of NUMEROUS species being hatched on the S.I.M._


----------



## GlasgowGecko

Gregg M said:


> You can contest it all you like, but it does not change the fact that the physiology between the two are very different... In fact, one of the most well known differences is that bird eggs need to be rotated and reptile eggs can not be rotated...


Yes birds eggs need to be turned, but this has nothing to do with gas exchange. The point still stands, the research I have mentioned is the nearest physiological experiment which tests the type of response you are claiming. It finds no associated decrease in incubation time.

I am of course not saying that it is not possible, but single replicate samples do not count as data, nor does pictures of various species hatching. After all, many of us here can post pictures of animals hatching using conventional substrate methods.

I am also not saying that the idea doesn't have merit, I think it does, but to claim the 'science' behind it, I personally think that you need much more actual data.

Kind regards,
Andy


----------



## loxocemus

its the egg crate idea, it been about for a long time im not sure why anyone would need it when its the same as a square of egg crate.

pretty though

rgds
ed


----------



## Schip

Here Here GlasgowGecko.

Can I ask which breeders are helping with your research and data collections along with the species they are using the product for?

How many yrs research do you have available for your data showing with and without product results?

As an ex Parrot breeder of some 30 yrs experience I can see this from both sides ie forced air vs still air incubation back in the day. Breeders were actually given the product to test out as each developement came about after lots of scientific research. Jeff Capes was one guy who worked with companies researching nutrition, growth, fertility etc within the Budgie fancy. 

Gaseous exchanges plus more even temp controls were found to improve hatch times and rates hence the increased useage and design of the Force air incubators similarly with the auto turning before that.

I have to ask myself if, as is being perported with no reason to disbelieve the claims when compared to bird incubation, a higher rate of exchange produces the same results as birds why we are using still air incubators? 

Wish I hadn't sold my last one now as I'd be happy to give my hognose eggs a run in one to compare with still air incubation. I am an old fart who remembers Terry Rolf (Curfew) and family working on reptile incubator developement back in the early 80's many a chat was had trying to solve the issues related to reps. Seems a tad ironic that the same issues are being discussed some 25 yrs later maybe the differences between birds and reps aren't that vast after all.


----------



## marcgroovyge

As said before. I feel this would Cause too many Health issues. I am also confused over why you are slamming any form of negative feed back. There is obviously flaws in the Product which could be addressed


----------



## Captainmatt29

Gregg M said:


> This is why it it not safe to make assumptions... The spaces that make up the grid are only 5mm... Not large enough for a hatchling leopard gecko to get its leg caught up and cause injury... There have been leos hatched on this as well as dwarf monitors and there has been no issue...


I'm sorry but you are wrong, we had an enigma gecko hatch that was slightly smaller than the others we had and i can tell you her feet were no more than about 4mm and their toes just a fraction of that.
So go back and test this out with atleast 100 leopard gecko babies before you produce such data as i think you will find that atleast 1 in 10 will be able to slip their legs down those holes.

You need to go away and test this with atleast 100 of each species you claim for the device to work for as a test for 6 Green Iguanas etc is not sufficiant data, and as per your picture the green iguana eggs are alot bigger than leopard gecko and bearded dragon eggs not to mention that this device would be useless for hatching spider geckos and the likes of considering they are the size of a 1p when hatched.

A good idea would be to release a few platforms with different sized holes some maybe aroud 2mm and upto 5 mmm, however i believe also that with some tweaking you would be able to reduce the overall size of the device to the size of a cricket tub and still get 6 to 8 leopard gecko eggs in it.


----------



## Gregg M

messengermatt,
After all of your posts, I have one serious question for you...

How many reptiles have you produced and how many species have you actually bred???


----------



## Sarah-Jayne

Gregg M said:


> messengermatt,
> After all of your posts, I have one serious question for you...
> 
> How many reptiles have you produced and how many species have you actually bred???


That is irrelavant

He is asking about how many YOU have hatched

Your boxes seem to be a good idea in principle but there are very small animals that may have problems with them

I see from the picture of the box with the iguana eggs that you only have 6 eggs in there, can you put more in or is that it? because that box is gonna use up alot of space that is needed for other eggs otherwise


----------



## Gregg M

As far as what breeders are helping out with tests on the container, I can compile a list and have it up soon...
At this point I can tell you that there at least 20 well known breeders and 2 zoos testing it...

Again, this is not something we just put together on a whim...
This thread would get very boring if we put all the data from each species on this thread...

Like John mentioned, we will have all of the data and species tested on our site and I will be posting lots of picson the site and on this thread...


----------



## Gregg M

Sarah-Jayne said:


> That is irrelavant
> 
> He is asking about how many YOU have hatched


I think it is totally relavant... If anyone must know, When I was heavy into breeding leopard geckos, I was producing about 300 to 400 a season... I must admit, I am not a large leopard gecko breeder...




Sarah-Jayne said:


> Your boxes seem to be a good idea in principle but there are very small animals that may have problems with them


We have had no issues with smaller reptiles... We hatched a few bibrons geckos in a container... No problems and not one got stuck or injured...




Sarah-Jayne said:


> I see from the picture of the box with the iguana eggs that you only have 6 eggs in there, can you put more in or is that it? because that box is gonna use up alot of space that is needed for other eggs otherwise


You could have fit at the very least 9 iguana eggs in there maybe 12...
Those iguana eggs are as large as chicken eggs...


----------



## Sarah-Jayne

Gregg M said:


> I think it is totally relavant... If anyone must know, When I was heavy into breeding leopard geckos, I was producing about 300 to 400 a season... I must admit, I am not a large leopard gecko breeder...
> 
> 
> We have had no issues with smaller reptiles... We hatched a few bibrons geckos in a container... No problems and not one got stuck or injured...
> 
> 
> 
> You could have fit at the very least 9 iguana eggs in there maybe 12...
> Those iguana eggs are larger than chicken eggs...


Have you tried things like lygodactylus williamsi and mourning geckos? they are extremely small when they hatch

When I referred to how many you have hatched, I mean't using those containers, not in general


----------



## Captainmatt29

A gecko that is born the size of a penny like the spider gecko will have feet alot smaller than 5mm so they will fall down the holes.

They also have very long spindley legs which would result in broken limbs


----------



## Gregg M

messengermatt said:


> I'm sorry but you are wrong, we had an enigma gecko hatch that was slightly smaller than the others we had and i can tell you her feet were no more than about 4mm and their toes just a fraction of that.


Oh wait, did you measure her feet and compile any data on that???


----------



## GlasgowGecko

Sarah-Jayne said:


> Have you tried things like lygodactylus williamsi and mourning geckos? they are extremely small when they hatch
> 
> When I referred to how many you have hatched, I mean't using those containers, not in general


Both of the species are egg gluers, so don't suffer the problem this tub was designed to overcome.

I really don't see legs getting stuck being an issue here, for me it really seems straws are being grasped at. However as I have questioned, I would like to see much more in the way of data before I would agree with the decreased incubation time. However as a product, I do think it would be worth a try.

Andy


----------



## Captainmatt29

GlasgowGecko said:


> Both of the species are egg gluers, so don't suffer the problem this tub was designed to overcome.
> 
> I really don't see legs getting stuck being an issue here, for me it really seems straws are being grasped at. However as I have questioned, I would like to see much more in the way of data before I would agree with the decreased incubation time. However as a product, I do think it would be worth a try.
> 
> Andy


It is an issue of the legs are less than 5mm surely ?


----------



## Sarah-Jayne

GlasgowGecko said:


> Both of the species are egg gluers, so don't suffer the problem this tub was designed to overcome.
> 
> I really don't see legs getting stuck being an issue here, for me it really seems straws are being grasped at. However as I have questioned, I would like to see much more in the way of data before I would agree with the decreased incubation time. However as a product, I do think it would be worth a try.
> 
> Andy


Ah so they are left to incubate in the vivarium then? Fair enough

It is a valid point though


----------



## GlasgowGecko

Sarah-Jayne said:


> Ah so they are left to incubate in the vivarium then? Fair enough
> 
> It is a valid point though


I think that yes, small lizard limbs could get stuck. This is not per se a flaw in the design, and would of course be the responsibility of the purchaser to put finer mesh over if it were needed.

The point that this tub removes the need for substrate is very useful. There are many species of reptiles that if the egg comes into contact with water it will terminate (or cause other issues), however these eggs still need high humidity. This product will effectively remove the direct water contact that is very frequent with substrate methods. This is its big positive.

Andy


----------



## marcgroovyge

GlasgowGecko said:


> Both of the species are egg gluers, so don't suffer the problem this tub was designed to overcome.
> 
> I really don't see legs getting stuck being an issue here, for me it really seems straws are being grasped at. However as I have questioned, I would like to see much more in the way of data before I would agree with the decreased incubation time. However as a product, I do think it would be worth a try.
> 
> Andy


I think your wrong. You are over looking the MANY different sized reptiles that hatch out of eggs. The concern is limbs being damaged by your product. To be fair you can keep waving the banner flaunting how many places are testing it, but you are not acknowledging the simple facts that have been presented to you.

You are very cocky and actually strike me as a show off. I personally would never buy your product as its a waste of space and can do more harm than good. Plus for the sake of 5 days hatching time....... I'll keep my $20 and wait


----------



## Gregg M

messengermatt said:


> A gecko that is born the size of a penny like the spider gecko will have feet alot smaller than 5mm so they will fall down the holes.
> 
> They also have very long spindley legs which would result in broken limbs


You are reaching for straws now... I can just as easily say that if you incubate in perlite or vermiculite, your hatchlings could ingest the incubation substrate and die...

It could happen... It has happened... But seriously, what are the chances??? Reptiles with eye lids have also gotten eye infections from incubation substrates... Is that enough to keep you from using a substrate???

You really have nothing bad to say but for some reason you are still reaching... I just said we hatched bibrons geckos the container without issue... They are about half the size of a penny...

All the animals you are mentioning are born in the wild every hatching season... Much harsher and dangerous yet they still thrive... Stop reaching and come up with a good argument against the SIM container...


----------



## marcgroovyge

GlasgowGecko said:


> I think that yes, small lizard limbs could get stuck. *This is not per se a flaw in the design, and would of course be the responsibility of the purchaser to put finer mesh over if it were needed.*
> 
> The point that this tub removes the need for substrate is very useful. There are many species of reptiles that if the egg comes into contact with water it will terminate (or cause other issues), however these eggs still need high humidity. This product will effectively remove the direct water contact that is very frequent with substrate methods. This is its big positive.
> 
> Andy


It is your right to inform every buyer of this and advise what they can use


----------



## Sarah-Jayne

GlasgowGecko said:


> I think that yes, small lizard limbs could get stuck. This is not per se a flaw in the design, and would of course be the responsibility of the purchaser to put finer mesh over if it were needed.
> 
> The point that this tub removes the need for substrate is very useful. There are many species of reptiles that if the egg comes into contact with water it will terminate (or cause other issues), however these eggs still need high humidity. This product will effectively remove the direct water contact that is very frequent with substrate methods. This is its big positive.
> 
> Andy



Isn't the substrate required for the humidity?


----------



## Gregg M

GlasgowGecko said:


> Both of the species are egg gluers, so don't suffer the problem this tub was designed to overcome.
> 
> I really don't see legs getting stuck being an issue here, for me it really seems straws are being grasped at. However as I have questioned, I would like to see much more in the way of data before I would agree with the decreased incubation time. However as a product, I do think it would be worth a try.
> 
> Andy


Andy seems to be the voice of reason here...

Andy your request is fair enough and the more data I get, the more of it I will post here and on our site...


----------



## Gregg M

Sarah-Jayne said:


> Isn't the substrate required for the humidity?


This is what I am talking about...
People are making arguments against the container when they obviously have not read the original post...


----------



## Captainmatt29

Gregg M said:


> Andy seems to be the voice of reason here...
> 
> Andy your request is fair enough and the more data I get, the more of it I will post here and on our site...


No you should be the voice of reason not another forum member as its your product


----------



## GlasgowGecko

marcgroovyge said:


> I think your wrong. You are over looking the MANY different sized reptiles that hatch out of eggs. The concern is limbs being damaged by your product. To be fair you can keep waving the banner flaunting how many places are testing it, but you are not acknowledging the simple facts that have been presented to you.
> 
> You are very cocky and actually strike me as a show off. I personally would never buy your product as its a waste of space and can do more harm than good. Plus for the sake of 5 days hatching time....... I'll keep my $20 and wait





marcgroovyge said:


> It is your right to inform every buyer of this and advise what they can use





Sarah-Jayne said:


> Isn't the substrate required for the humidity?



I have NO affiliation to this product at all, I am simply an impartial observer. It is not beyond the realms of thinking that the same product (which I understand is a prototype) could be made with smaller mesh. This would surely solve this problem, IF it is a problem in the first place. I honestly think you are missing the point of the container all together. I'm not saying its flawless, but the point you have made is incredibly minor.

Sarah-Jayne, my understanding was you could add just water. This may or may not be the case, however the eggs NEVER touch the substrate, or water. So effectively its not a problem.

Andy


----------



## Sarah-Jayne

Gregg M said:


> This is what I am talking about...
> People are making arguments against the container when they obviously have not read the original post...


I don't know what you are talking about

Andy said that this container removes the need for substrate

The substrate is required to keep the humidity inside the container up

?


----------



## Gregg M

marcgroovyge said:


> It is your right to inform every buyer of this and advise what they can use


If I need to tell you how to incubate the species you keep, you should not be breeding...

We are providing the first and only production, suspension incubation container...

How you vent it or modify it is up to you, not us...


----------



## Captainmatt29

Gregg M said:


> If I need to tell you how to incubate the species you keep, you should not be breeding...
> 
> We are providing the first and only production no suspension incubation container...
> 
> How you vent it or modify it is up to you, not us...


If you have to modify it then its not fit for purpose, thats called the sale of goods act


----------



## marcgroovyge

Gregg M said:


> If I need to tell you how to incubate the species you keep, you should not be breeding...
> 
> We are providing the first and only production, suspension incubation container...
> 
> How you vent it or modify it is up to you, not us...


If a buyer needs to alter the design you must provide information on how to alter it.

No one has asked you for incubation help


----------



## GlasgowGecko

messengermatt said:


> If you have to modify it then its not fit for purpose, thats called the sale of goods act


Come on, what he is saying is that you 'could' modify the product to increase ventilation etc...

Andy


----------



## Gregg M

messengermatt said:


> If you have to modify it then its not fit for purpose, thats called the sale of goods act


I am telling you it does not have to be modified but you keep insisting that it does... Once it is in your hands, you are free to do what you like with it...

Stop reaching... Your arms must be killing you by now...


----------



## madaboutreptiles

I know several breeders in the U.S us the suspention method to incubate their reptile eggs.

I have seen various designs from a stocking filled with the eggs hanging over water heated with an aqurium heater. right up to an Aquarium with 3" water in the bottom, a brick placed on the bottom with your tub of eggs standing on that.

This seems to be a more professional version of the same principle.

You only need substrate to hold the humidity?


----------



## Gregg M

madaboutreptiles said:


> You only need substrate to hold the humidity?


Yes, and that can be anything from water to water/substrate mixes...
It is still up to the breeder to know the humidity requirements for the the species they are breeding, however this container allows for more saturated substrates because the reptile eggs are never sitting in a substrate and remain dry during incubation...


----------



## SleepyD

GlasgowGecko said:


> This is not per se a flaw in the design, and would of course be the responsibility of the purchaser to put finer mesh over if it were needed.


*nods* or if possible a smaller graded base provided ~ would that be possible Gregg to have smaller holed options or mesh's available for those concerned with smaller species or would that be entirely down to the purchaser to sort? 



Gregg M said:


> however this container allows for more saturated substrates because the reptile eggs are never sitting in a substrate and remain dry during incubation...


I'd be possibly interested in this as at the moment I use larger coarse perlite to rest eggs on above any water/moisture level and I allow far more air circulation then many (I don't incubate in air-tight tubs) so my eggs stay 'drier' ~ Gregg how does it fair with regards any mould or collapsing issues that some have problems with?


----------



## Gregg M

SleepyD said:


> *nods* or if possible a smaller graded base provided ~ would that be possible Gregg to have smaller holed options or mesh's available for those concerned with smaller species or would that be entirely down to the purchaser to sort?


As of right now, we are keeping the hole size at 5mm for two reasons
The 5mm square holes allow the proper amount of humidity and water vapor into the egg chamber above the grid line... And to open up a new mold at this point will be very expensive... It would not be just one mold... It would be a mold for the grid and a mold for the bars that stablize the eggs... The bars have pegs that are fitted to the grid for a snug fit so they can not be jarred loose during incubation or pushed around by hatchlings.. Like I said, we have incubated and hatched bibrons geckos in the container... They are about the size of a penny and did not get stuck or injured.. No leopard geckos hatched in the container got any limbs caught either... I do not see the size of the grid hole being an issue at all...




SleepyD said:


> I'd be possibly interested in this as at the moment I use larger coarse perlite to rest eggs on above any water/moisture level and I allow far more air circulation then many (I don't incubate in air-tight tubs) so my eggs stay 'drier' ~ Gregg how does it fair with regards any mould or collapsing issues that some have problems with?


Since we have been testing the SIM container we have had no issue with moulds or collapsed eggs... We have had a 100% hatch rate thus far...


----------



## SleepyD

Gregg M said:


> As of right now, we are keeping the hole size at 5mm for two reasons
> The 5mm square holes allow the proper amount of humidity and water vapor into the egg chamber above the grid line... And to open up a new mold at this point will be very expensive... It would not be just one mold... It would be a mold for the grid and a mold for the bars that stablize the eggs... The bars have pegs that are fitted to the grid for a snug fit so they can not be jarred loose during incubation or pushed around by hatchlings.. Like I said, we have incubated and hatched bibrons geckos in the container... They are about the size of a penny and did not get stuck or injured.. No leopard geckos hatched in the container got any limbs caught either... I do not see the size of the grid hole being an issue at all...


fair do's ~ I wouldn't have any problem trying it 'as is' with leo's but was merely asking for those who may have concerns


> Since we have been testing the SIM container we have had no issue with moulds or collapsed eggs... We have had a 100% hatch rate thus far...


thankyou ~ I know that mould/collapsing can be an issue for some so if those are less of a problem then that's all for the better


----------



## Gregg M

Generally, moulds do not grow on good, healthy eggs... For the most part, if an egg starts to mold, it is either because the egg was infertile or because the embryo is either very week or has died...

There are many factors that go into embryotic mortality...
Embryos die when there is too much or too likke moisture... They also die if water gets on the egg... Another cause of embryotic death is when they do not get the proper gas exchange... Just to name a few...

This container was designed to greatly reduce the chances of embriotic death... You can never totally eliminate the chances of an embryo not making it full term, but you can reduce them significantly...


----------



## peterf

I have used this method for years for my reticulated python eggs, and many others.
I use a special high powered heat mat under a big really useful box with around 3" of water in the bottom.
I cut the bottom out of a large contico box and replace the hole with a big square of stainless mesh that is welded onto the contico.
The contico is placed, up side down, over the water.
Egg mass is placed on the mesh, just over the water.
To avoid condensation on the lid, another normal power heat mat is taped to the lid and warms the plastic enough to avoid any condensation.
Both mats are controlled with a Habistat Pulse proportional thermostat and the probe is placed directly in the egg mass for effective control.
Works for most all eggs!


----------



## shep1979

do u know wot stand u will be hamm? as we want a few to give a try


----------



## Captainmatt29

peterf said:


> I have used this method for years for my reticulated python eggs, and many others.
> I use a special high powered heat mat under a big really useful box with around 3" of water in the bottom.
> I cut the bottom out of a large contico box and replace the hole with a big square of stainless mesh that is welded onto the contico.
> The contico is placed, up side down, over the water.
> Egg mass is placed on the mesh, just over the water.
> To avoid condensation on the lid, another normal power heat mat is taped to the lid and warms the plastic enough to avoid any condensation.
> Both mats are controlled with a Habistat Pulse proportional thermostat and the probe is placed directly in the egg mass for effective control.
> Works for most all eggs!


So its easy to make at home then ?


----------



## Gregg M

messengermatt said:


> So its easy to make at home then ?


Well considering what needs to be done and the materials you need to buy to make one, wouldnt it be easier to just buy one and pop it in your incubator??? 

Why do you keep looking to discourage people from buying this product??? Is it something personal??? I dont fully understand your motives...


----------



## inkyjoe

I think this looks like a brilliant product, with lots of research, good knowledge of the science of incubation, and a dedication to improving, what is, a very controversial subject for many breeders (evidently)!

Personally, its too small for anything I am planning to breed, but, with whats been explained, and the evidence thats been posted by the inventors/promoters, this look like a very valid and successful bit of kit, and I dont see why people are clutching at straws to pick holes in it, especially when Ive read such bad results with other mass-produced reptile incubators. If youve got a problem with it, dont use it, let other people use it, until its results(which look good/perfect to me) are more widely known when the product is stabilised.

It sounds like you can make something very similar at home, but people will still buy it, because people always buy specific reptile products, when in a lot of cases, a home made substitute can be found, just look at exo-terra!? eg. you can buy a synthetic cave for your reptile to hide in, when you could probably just use an old shoe, or a rock shaped water bowl, when you can use a washed up yoghurt pot!

best of luck guys, lets hope to improve reptile egg developement, and eliminate rubbish hatch rates and retarded hatchlings:no1:


----------



## Savanna

Well in all honesty a lot of what we buy and use could be made at home. BUT by the time you add in 2xheat mats other kit and time its doesn't always work out that much cheaper. 

I'd like to see a container that could take a good royal clutch. The fishtank method described earlier is one I have used for CWD eggs in the past with a very good hatch rate as long as the water is not too deep and there is wood for them to climb out.


----------



## Gregg M

Savanna said:


> I'd like to see a container that could take a good royal clutch.


Already being designed... We will have blueprints ready soon and we will be going into production... Should be ready by December/January...


----------



## Ssthisto

messengermatt said:


> If you have to modify it then its not fit for purpose, thats called the sale of goods act


And the Sale of Goods Act probably doesn't apply to GreggM seeing as he's an American selling goods in America (and possibly Hamm). 

You don't HAVE to modify this tub for it to work - but you CAN modify it for your own purposes, just as I have, say, modified Really Useful Boxes to use them for reptile keeping. I can't sue the Really Useful Products company for not telling me how to punch holes in their boxes if I want holes in them. If you want to use fine nylon mesh to ensure your babies' feet don't slip into the holes, try stretching a length of stocking over the mesh insert.

Now, I would like to see the larger box when it's produced, and I'd like to know how this smaller box works with, say, a CLUMP of corn snake eggs; can it manage them if the eggs are in a clump and can't be separated without damaging the eggs? How tall is the space between the grating and the lid of the box?


----------



## boipevassu

*Science*

OK, firstly some GCSE Science. Sorry!

If you repeat an experiment a large enough number of times and the same thing, good or bad, happens every time, the result is 'reliable'. We then tend to believe it will happen the next time we do it (in those exact controlled conditions). And we can test it and grow a data base.

People doubting this product obviously do not have to buy it. Others can wait for the data - and if they try the product, post their own data to the website or the forums.

Theorising before the fact is what scientists used to do. Now strong reliable data is everything. The product has been tested to some extent and so far it appears to be functioning well. We are seeing the results of their preliminary experiments and they look good. We don't necessarily know if they are scientifically reliable (yet).

Anyone getting high or even 100% hatch rates might not choose to use this. Those currently experiencing losses incubating eggs or lower success rates might be convinced. 

There are a huge number of reptiles being bred currently so the data should relate to individual species; could compare incubation times; would have to look at the long term issues (long term mortality) and might have to include probes for oxygen and carbon dioxide near the eggs - under current and new incubating conditions - unless this data already exists. Those claims about gas exchange need validating if they are to be made.

A wide ranging and well repeated set of data would be compelling.

However if you are not feeling 'Brainiac' - (a reply to) their website could simply include incubation conditions, incubation period achieved and hatch success as a percentage. That way we can share data and make *informed* choices.

For me, ideas like this should certainly not be discounted out of hand and if larger breeders are prepared to test them we can at least look at the results.

As for the argument about building your own and sizes. That's completely up to the individual, but surely should not be overstated here, since to be able to buy a solution is often the quickest and easiest answer. I am often prepared to pay for the convenience. If the plastic being used here can be kept reasonably sterile the work has been done for us. If larger versions are also proven to work well later, even better.

Gregg M - posting a web address, to show data, with links or references to some of the science behind this kind of incubation (gas exchange ideas etc) would be a huge benefit here. Good luck with it. If it works it will certainly sell - and I'd be interested in giving it a go after seeing the data.


----------



## Gregg M

Ssthisto and boipevassu,
Thankyou both for the reply...

Ssthisto, 
the rods to keep eggs in place are not only fully adjustable to fit just about any egg size, but they are fully removable so clumped clutches can be placed directly on the grid...

boipevassu,
Our website will be up and running shortly... Some of our data will go up on the site and every stitch of data from other breeders large and small will also go up as it comes in... We will compile this data along with the species, pics of the species hatching, the exact conditions and the breeder who gave the data plus a link to their website will be added...

Thanks again fot your replies...


----------



## Gregg M

We happy to announce that we now have an Australian distributer... For anyone in Australia, this will be the person to contact for containers...
http://www.carpetpythons.com.au/index.ews


----------



## marcgroovyge

Gregg M said:


> Already being designed... We will have blueprints ready soon and we will be going into production... Should be ready by December/January...


You done the blue prints for leos yet?


----------



## Gregg M

marcgroovyge said:


> You done the blue prints for leos yet?


This container is PERFECTLY siuted for incubation of leopard gecko eggs... Again, there is no issue with the grid and the size of leopard gecko feet... No broken bones... 

There have been dozens of leos hatched in the container already... Not sure why you are trying to make an issue out of something that has already proven to be a non-issue...

You should really learn more about this container and gain some experience breeding and incubating eggs before you say anything more...

There are well over a hundred breeders using this product already... From small scale breeders to the largest in the United States... I would say about 30% or more are being used by leopard gecko breeders...

We also have 2 reptile parks using our container...

We also have people in other Countries looking to distribute this product in their Country...

Our Astralian distributer is a well known python breeder who has co-authored books on keeping and breeding of pythons... 

Your one or two seasons of breeding geckos DOES NOT qualify you as an authority on egg incubation or our Supension Incubation Container... You are a novice breeder who obviously can not comprehend the workings of this container... And certainly your knowledge and your one or two seasons of breeding geckos can not compare to that of the large breeders (that have been doing this longer than some of us are alive) who are using it...

I have tried to educate you on the product but all you can do is try and find fault that does not exist... Reaching for straws and making up scenarios that never happend is not the way to argue a point or get educated...


----------



## marcgroovyge

No need to be so rude! It was a simple question which you have blown out of the water.

As this product is basically a prototype I feel that you should be taking any comments on board and think 'hmm maybe we could alter this'. NOT slagging peoples experiences with reptiles off.

You have even childishly gone out of you way to post on a thread and have a dig at our 'knowledge'. 

To be fair I have been trying to make you aware of a possible issue here, yet you never quite caught on. At the end of the day the thread was made to see what people thought. So why are you being such an amoeba and arguing with anyone who gives a negative response?


----------



## Gregg M

Remember this???



marcgroovyge said:


> Okay I am going to tell you this one last time. I MY opinion, YOUR lil over priced cheap looking egg box is a *HEALTH* hazard and complete shite!


.



marcgroovyge said:


> No need to be so rude! It was a simple question which you have blown out of the water.


Not being rude... I was just stating the obvious that you and the others at Ace Reptiles are inexperienced novice keepers trying to make a name for yourselves... Do you think for a second I am the only one who caught on to this fact??? And it was not a simple question blown out of the water... You have repeated the same remarks that it is not good for leos and other small reptiles even after I have told you over and over again that plenty of leos have been hatched on the container without issue and we have hatched even smaller species without issue...



marcgroovyge said:


> As this product is basically a prototype I feel that you should be taking any comments on board and think 'hmm maybe we could alter this'. NOT slagging peoples experiences with reptiles off.


Again you lack of understanding is very apparent... IT IS NOT A PROTOTYPE!!! We tested the prototype 2 years prior to producing the final design...

Again, I was just stating the obvious, not "slagging"...



marcgroovyge said:


> To be fair I have been trying to make you aware of a possible issue here, yet you never quite caught on.


And as I have already explained in detail, your made up scenarios are not an issue, yet you keep on trying to say there are health issues involved with this product... Again, you are talking like you have seen these thing happen in this container but you have never used it... You have not even hatched enough animals with your method to even have a leg to stand on when it comes to an argument against the use of this product...



marcgroovyge said:


> At the end of the day the thread was made to see what people thought.


Yes, to see what people thought... Not to have a gaggle of novice keepers talk about the product in a negative fasion when they.....
1- Have never used the container or an incubation method even similar.
2- Have maybe one or two seasons of breeding geckos.

Your arguments against the container hold no water... This product has been tested and proven to work without causing any harm to the animals incubated in it... None of the animals hatched in this container have had any health issues... All eggs incubated have hatched 100% and all neonates are super healthy and thriving...

If you think about it, why would two regular guys who breed reptiles spend time and A LOT of money to have a design like this patented and produced and sell it at a retail price where we are barely making money, if it did not really work???

Seems like a lot to do in order to get a product out on the market that does not work or causes injury to hatchlings... Does it not???



marcgroovyge said:


> So why are you being such an amoeba and arguing with anyone who gives a negative response?


So, it is ok for people to make up scenarios and issues that are nonexistant in this product, but I can not defend a product that we put our blood, sweat, and hard work into??? Get real...


----------



## DazedLewis

I dont think people should put people off this product when they havent actually tried it.

I would be interested for some people to give it a go since if a few are bought the price might not be too much. Then if they are as good as explained, people can post their success on here and you may well have rfukers added to your customer list.

It may help to offer a few cheaply to larger reputable breeders on here to try out on a few clutches to get the ball rolling.


----------



## Ssthisto

Gregg, I'd be interested in trying this container - could you possibly give me (and the other folks on RFUK) an estimate on what it would cost to get a small number of them - maybe one to three - sent to us here in the UK?


----------



## SleepyD

Ssthisto said:


> Gregg, I'd be interested in trying this container - could you possibly give me (and the other folks on RFUK) an estimate on what it would cost to get a small number of them - maybe one to three - sent to us here in the UK?


ditto ~ this would also prove handy if some wish to share delivery.


----------



## Captainmatt29

Were expecting atleast 200 hatchlings next year so just out of interested Gregg would it be beneficial to actually try this because the Herp Nursery 2 incubator has been known to take 90 odd days to hatch which imo is rather a long time.

I dont mind if you say no but now i have my head screwed on properly im thinking of it was successful i would have no problem recommending it to others.


----------



## marcgroovyge

All I was asking was if there was issues with leopard geckos and could there be issues. I'm trying to find something to make me feel more secure above using this product. But I think I'll hone my skills a bit more on hatching more leos as I am too much of a novice


----------



## JRoss

This is quite an interesting idea as long as the heat is dissipated properly through the perforated plastic. I wonder if these designs give a better hatch rate though. I naturally prefer the 'substrate' method because it seems more natural but something tells me this method would be quite effective. I guess there is only one way to find out, i will have to make one with this design principle it and test it.


----------



## fantapants

JRoss said:


> This is quite an interesting idea as long as the heat is dissipated properly through the perforated plastic. I wonder if these designs give a better hatch rate though. I naturally prefer the 'substrate' method because it seems more natural but something tells me this method would be quite effective. I guess there is only one way to find out, i will have to make one with this design principle it and test it.


 
good idea, the same sort of thing can be made pretty easy.....i did it myself with royal eggs and wire mesh. but i didnt figure that fact that the snakes would actually hatch and could injure themselves on the wire edges no matter HOW carefully i taped the ends. so i have a lesser platty with a scar . 

i know a few people that have this box trying it out as we speak. after listening to their ideas and feedback i wouldnt hesitate to buy a few at the next show. it taks all the guess work ( and wire mesh) out of the equation and its one less thing for me to worry about. when you breed on a relatively serious scale you cant always be arsed fannying about with a dozen or two home made conatiners. its worth it for that alone for me.


----------



## Gregg M

Ok, look...
We have all obviously gotten off on a bad foot here (Ace Reptiles and myself) for some silly reason... I will publicly apologize for any remarks I have made to Ace reptiles... Sorry for my comments... In this hobby, we all need to sticK together as a community, not only in our home Countries, but around the world...

I will also say that being new to the breeding game is not a bad thing at all... We all need to start out somewhere, so please do not think that my comments about being new breeders was a jab... I was just pointing out that there was not enough known about the method by the ones who were talking bad about it... Again I am very sorry for my comments but I was taking it personally as I am showing a product I helped design and we had produced from our own ideas and money... We are not a corperate group... We are 2 regular guys who have about 40 years combined reptile keeping and breeding experience... We saw issues with current incubation methods and fixed them with our product...

Honestly, this is the only place we introduce our product where anyone called it Shite...:lol2:

Now to answer some questions...



Ssthisto said:


> Gregg, I'd be interested in trying this container - could you possibly give me (and the other folks on RFUK) an estimate on what it would cost to get a small number of them - maybe one to three - sent to us here in the UK?


The containers are 20 usd each... Bigger orders will be discounted... The shipping from the USA to the UK is A LOT of money... This is why we will have distributers... We have a person in Germany who will be our distributer for Europe... He will also vend the Hamm show... By us having a distributer in Germany it will cut the cost of shipping drastically to you all in all European Countries... We want the Product to be available to anyone who wants it...



messengermatt said:


> Were expecting atleast 200 hatchlings next year so just out of interested Gregg would it be beneficial to actually try this because the Herp Nursery 2 incubator has been known to take 90 odd days to hatch which imo is rather a long time.
> 
> I dont mind if you say no but now i have my head screwed on properly im thinking of it was successful i would have no problem recommending it to others.


Hey Matt...
Ofcorse it would be beneficial to try it... It is a proven method that works... If you think about it, at one point, you have tried all of your reptile products... You have even used containers to incubate your reptile eggs in that were not ment for reptile egg incubation...
Our container is spacifically designed for the task...

Akso, 90 days is a very long time to sit on leo eggs... I think that that incubator you are using may not be all its cracked up to be... Just my opinion... I am not saying it is crap at all but 90 dats does not seem right to me at all...



marcgroovyge said:


> All I was asking was if there was issues with leopard geckos and could there be issues. I'm trying to find something to make me feel more secure above using this product. But I think I'll hone my skills a bit more on hatching more leos as I am too much of a novice


And I have stated numerous times that there have been dozens of leopard geckos hatched on the container (not to mention some of the largest Leopard geckop breeders are using them) and other smaller species as well... There were absolutly no health issues or broken limbs... Every animal hatch on the container so far have been VERY healthy and more robust than usual...
Again I am sorry about my novice comments... 



JRoss said:


> This is quite an interesting idea as long as the heat is dissipated properly through the perforated plastic. I wonder if these designs give a better hatch rate though. I naturally prefer the 'substrate' method because it seems more natural but something tells me this method would be quite effective. I guess there is only one way to find out, i will have to make one with this design principle it and test it.


Hi jross,
The temps stay very stable inside the container... Infact they are more stable in the container than they are in the incubator especially when the incubator is opened...
I understand what you are saying about the substrate but in actuality most reptiles do not bury their eggs... They lay them in areas where there is an abundance of oxygen flow... Even the species we incubated in this container that do bury their eggs, have hatched with a 100% hatch rate...


----------



## Sarah-Jayne

May I ask what kind of incubator you use? I only ask because I am wondering if that would affect the hatch rate. I have a home made one but I only hatched 3 eggs last year  but I have modified it this year, just haven't tried it yet lol


----------



## shep1979

i thought u said u would be selling these at hamm ??? i went and looked all over for u and couldent find u as me and a few others want some of these so can u PM me about getting some from u , many thanks


----------



## marcgroovyge

How much do you sell them for again? I might give them a try next year as we will be banging out loads of eggs. : victory:



It's not shite btw. I was out of order.


----------



## Gregg M

Sarah-Jayne said:


> May I ask what kind of incubator you use? I only ask because I am wondering if that would affect the hatch rate. I have a home made one but I only hatched 3 eggs last year  but I have modified it this year, just haven't tried it yet lol


Hello Sarah Jayne,
We are currently using large refridgerators converted into incubators... We are using Flexwatt as a heating element and we are using thermostats to control temps ofcorse...

Everything you do or use during egg incubation will in some way affect hatch rates... The more things that are done correctly, the higher your hatch rate should be...

Sarah, if you need any help or have any questions on incubation, let me know and I will help you as best as I can...



shep1979 said:


> i thought u said u would be selling these at hamm ??? i went and looked all over for u and couldent find u as me and a few others want some of these so can u PM me about getting some from u , many thanks


Hi Shep,
We were not going to be at the Hamm show but one of our German friends were going to put some containers we gave him on display... Wether he did so or not, I am not sure... Who knows, he might have them full of eggs already or he passed a couple on to some other german breeders...

Right now we are working out the legal paperwork with our EU distributer and the will be available to all who want them in the UK VERY soon... The thing is, the container its self is 20 bucks but to ship from the US to the UK is rediculously expensive... Doing it through our distributer will keep the cost way down... We want this to be affordable for all keepers and breeders...

With this being said, we are planning to do the Hamm show in 2010...



marcgroovyge said:


> How much do you sell them for again? I might give them a try next year as we will be banging out loads of eggs. : victory:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not shite btw. I was out of order.


Hey Marc,
They are $20 usd but the shipping will be outragious like I said... I will let you all know who to contact in the UK as soon as all the particulars are sorted out...
And I thank you for retracting your comment... Glad we are all getting along... Coversations and even debates go much better without bickering...: victory:

Getting all the legal stuff taken care of with regards to distributers has proven to be quite a task but it is a task we are taking on to get the product to anyone who wants to use it... Please be patient... The ball is rolling and the containers will be available in Europe within a couple of weeks...

If there are any other questions, please, feel free to ask...


----------



## Gregg M

Here are 2 mack snow montanus that were hatched tonight in the SIM by my buddy Paulnj... He is a medium scale breeder here in the US...


----------



## Ssthisto

Gregg M said:


> The containers are 20 usd each... Bigger orders will be discounted... The shipping from the USA to the UK is A LOT of money... This is why we will have distributers... We have a person in Germany who will be our distributer for Europe... He will also vend the Hamm show... By us having a distributer in Germany it will cut the cost of shipping drastically to you all in all European Countries... We want the Product to be available to anyone who wants it...


You'd be surprised, shipping to the UK from Germany can be *almost* as expensive as shipping from the UK from the USA. And for those of us who don't go to the Hamm show... that still makes them somewhat inaccessible.

Hence my asking - even if it's silly money - what the actual shipping cost for one to three containers sent direct to the UK would be.


----------



## Gregg M

Ssthisto said:


> You'd be surprised, shipping to the UK from Germany can be *almost* as expensive as shipping from the UK from the USA. And for those of us who don't go to the Hamm show... that still makes them somewhat inaccessible.
> 
> Hence my asking - even if it's silly money - what the actual shipping cost for one to three containers sent direct to the UK would be.


I am just starting to find this out... This is why we are looking into a distributer in England as well...

As far as the shipping goes, I can get you a round about price and eitjer put it here on this thread or PM it to you... I can find out for you today hopefully...


----------



## Captainmatt29

I would like to try one out gregg, can you get me a as close to as possible price for shipping too, my guess is that if you shop to me using UPS it would be cheaper?

I can then trial and vouch for the product


----------



## Gregg M

You got it Matt... I will try to get the shipping cost by tonight... If not, tomorrow for sure...


----------



## Johnantny

If there are any reptile product retailers interested in distributing our product and the upcoming larger python egg capable S.I.M., please send an email to [email protected] for more information.

We can ship bulk orders wholesale, factory direct to England from China. 

Thanks in advance,

John 

Squamata Concepts, LLC.


----------



## snickers

> The 5mm square holes allow the proper amount of humidity and water
> vapor into the egg chamber above the grid line

You have made some big claims about your incubation method. can you substantiate these claims with independant peer reviewed research? If you can't and I have to believe what you say - well you would say that wouldn't you - you are trying to sell stuff.

I've been looking at substrateless incubation for a while now, but nothing you have said makes me want to buy your particular product. I'm not against it, but on principle I tend not to believe much a salesman says unless it can be independantly proven in some way. You sell a lot more if you can persuade the sceptics.


----------



## hogboy

Shipping something that light, will not be expensive by USPS
Just take a couple down to you PO and get a price.


----------



## Gregg M

snickers said:


> > The 5mm square holes allow the proper amount of humidity and water
> > vapor into the egg chamber above the grid line
> 
> You have made some big claims about your incubation method. can you substantiate these claims with independant peer reviewed research? If you can't and I have to believe what you say - well you would say that wouldn't you - you are trying to sell stuff.


Not making big claims... Just stating fact that have been proven before us and are being proven by us... Like I have said NUMEROUS times in this thread, there are MANY BREEDERS WORKING WITH THE SIM CONTAINER!!!All of the data will be put on our site as it comes in... The data will be coming from the best and biggest breeders in the US and some from over seas...



snickers said:


> I've been looking at substrateless incubation for a while now, but nothing you have said makes me want to buy your particular product. I'm not against it, but on principle I tend not to believe much a salesman says unless it can be independantly proven in some way. You sell a lot more if you can persuade the sceptics.


All I can say to that is, if you are a sceptic, try it out yourself... It is affordable enough... And you will certainly not lie to yourself, would you??? Or you can just wait for the data and reviews from other breeders big and small to start rolling in...

The thing is, John and myself are not salesmen... We are two keepers who saw problems with conventional incubation methods and wanted to come out with a product to help ourselves and other breeders better our hatching success... Sure we are looking to sell these, but with the hard work behind it, would it not be deserved???

You can look us up on many forums... We are both well known in the hobby... Not for this new product, but for the many years of breeding reptiles from geckos to gaboon vipers... We are not a corperate group trying to make millions... We are actual keepers and breeders... Seriously, ask around the different US forums... My name is Gregg Madden and my partners name is John Adragna... 

So far, in all of our testing, it has been 100%... Its the same for anyone who has used it so far as well...


----------



## Kev132

i offered to have everyone who wanted one shipped to my place, and id re distribute them to everyone and we could all share the shipping cost, the answer was id have to buy 500, and sell them on myself, sorry guys, but no way am i taking that gamble... :lol2:

im not a business man, just looking to help us all out who want to try the product out over here, its alright saying if your sceptical try it, but we cant even get it to try it !!! :lol2:


----------



## shropshire-vivs

Shipping is a lot as we keep hearing. This thing is plasctic though and my experience with plastic is this................... It doesnt weigh much!

I would possibly of been interested for next year but cant be bothered with the hassle, took ages for a product price, now naming a shipping price is being quoted as 'a lot', imagine the hassle of actually paying and receiving the product!


----------



## Sarah-Jayne

Yeah shipping from the USA isn't really as expensive as you think it is, unless you want to post something heavy of course. Something light like that will only cost a few $'s, and yes I have had experience with the US postal system when I have been over there posting stuff home cos it wouldn't fit in my suitcase LOL


----------



## Gregg M

shropshire-vivs said:


> I would possibly of been interested for next year but cant be bothered with the hassle, took ages for a product price, now naming a shipping price is being quoted as 'a lot', imagine the hassle of actually paying and receiving the product!


Thats a pretty blanket staement to make... We have a very good, unblemished reputation with hundreds of sales of live stock and products here in the US... 

This is not an easy task for us... There is a lot of work getting shipping quotes... Plus, we have never exported single containers out of the States... It has been large orders thus far... 

Anyway that whole drop ship thing from China was quoted because John obviously thought you wanted to distribute the product for us...

Anyway after a bit of searching we found the cheapest we can ship individual containers is for around $16 USD.... Not too bad actually...

Anyone who is interested in getting one or a few can contact me or go to the website... Squamata Concepts, LLC.


----------



## Kev132

Gregg M said:


> Thats a pretty blanket staement to make... We have a very good, unblemished reputation with hundreds of sales of live stock and products here in the US...
> 
> This is not an easy task for us... There is a lot of work getting shipping quotes... Plus, we have never exported single containers out of the States... It has been large orders thus far...
> 
> Anyway that whole drop ship thing from China was quoted because John obviously thought you wanted to distribute the product for us...
> 
> Anyway after a bit of searching we found the cheapest we can ship individual containers is for around $16 USD.... Not too bad actually...
> 
> Anyone who is interested in getting one or a few can contact me or go to the website... Squamata Concepts, LLC.


Thats fair enough, but if you knew what i meant, there's only 2 of you it cant be that had to communicate, 

simply put, if say 30 of us of here want one, ship all 30 to me, ill mail them back out to the individuals and we can all share the postage as surelly it will be much cheaper that way ?, that was my suggestion..... did it not come accross that way ?


----------



## Gregg M

Another species hatched on the S.I.M.

Crested geckos... Hatched out today by my friend Eric Bristow


----------



## mack-bell

snickers said:


> > The 5mm square holes allow the proper amount of humidity and water
> > vapor into the egg chamber above the grid line
> 
> You have made some big claims about your incubation method. can you substantiate these claims with independant peer reviewed research? If you can't and I have to believe what you say - well you would say that wouldn't you - you are trying to sell stuff.
> 
> I've been looking at substrateless incubation for a while now, but nothing you have said makes me want to buy your particular product. I'm not against it, but on principle I tend not to believe much a salesman says unless it can be independantly proven in some way. You sell a lot more if you can persuade the sceptics.



I had the SIM Containers with me at the Show. I was visiting Jeff Galewood in the USA its a friend of mine and we did the trip to the National Breeders Expo in Daytona where I picked up 6 of the SIMs.

I must say I had 2 left over. 2 Were for a friend 2 were for me (and they are right I have eggs in it including het Radar stuff so I trust the whole thing).

Their are now 4 person in Germany with a SIM testing it all will post results and no one of us has to do with the saleing of them so this is an independent statement 

I couldn´t bring them on the table because all leftovers were sold the minute I did a thread on a German forum about the SIM.
Everyone thats interested can come around my table in Decembre and see the SIM in person I will move some eggs than into a substrate box for the show.

So far I haven´t hatched anything but no egg was supposed so far.

All I can say is I trust in the containers and I know guys liek Jeff Galewood are testing them right now, too.

Well time will tell the results I will post all my hatches.

thanks 
Thorsten


----------



## Gregg M

Kev132 said:


> Thats fair enough, but if you knew what i meant, there's only 2 of you it cant be that had to communicate,
> 
> simply put, if say 30 of us of here want one, ship all 30 to me, ill mail them back out to the individuals and we can all share the postage as surelly it will be much cheaper that way ?, that was my suggestion..... did it not come accross that way ?


Hello Kev,
I had told John he would be hearing from you... The thing is, we have a lot of emails with people wanting to distribute... I looked over your e mail to Jihn and it does look as if you wanted to distribute the product... You never said you wanted 30 or so... Simple miscommunication... No big deal...

Anyway, if you still want to go ahead, we will be happy to give you an nice little discount on individual container price with an order of 30 to help offset the shipping cost even more... John and myself really want you guys to have this product...

Thanks for the replies...


----------



## snickers

> All I can say to that is, if you are a sceptic, try it out yourself

> So far, in all of our testing, it has been 100%... Its the same for anyone
> who has used it so far as well...

You are now claiming that no egg in all the clutches ever put into your plastic gizmo has failed to hatch. I hope you can now understand where my scepticism comes from.

I will continue to look into substrateless incubation. I won't be buying your product anytime soon


----------



## Gregg M

snickers said:


> You are now claiming that no egg in all the clutches ever put into your plastic gizmo has failed to hatch. I hope you can now understand where my scepticism comes from.


Yes, I am saying that so far, EVERY viable egg put in our container has hatched without issue...



snickers said:


> I will continue to look into substrateless incubation. I won't be buying your product anytime soon


Do what you wish...


----------



## Kev132

Gregg M said:


> Hello Kev,
> I had told John he would be hearing from you... The thing is, we have a lot of emails with people wanting to distribute... I looked over your e mail to Jihn and it does look as if you wanted to distribute the product... You never said you wanted 30 or so... Simple miscommunication... No big deal...
> 
> Anyway, if you still want to go ahead, we will be happy to give you an nice little discount on individual container price with an order of 30 to help offset the shipping cost even more... John and myself really want you guys to have this product...
> 
> Thanks for the replies...


yeah ok, let me know some prices then and see what we can sort out,


----------



## Gregg M

The S.I.M. being put to good use in Australia...

Our friends and distributers in Australia, Nicole and Chris from www.CarpetPythons.com.au has sent us these photos... Talk about pimpin your incubator... LOL



















Carpet Python Eggs









Bearded Dragon Eggs









This is 2 clutches of Bearded Dragon eggs that were layed 2 weeks apart from eachother... What a difference 2 weeks in the S.I.M. makes...


----------



## mack-bell

This is my first baby in the SIM


----------



## Gregg M

Congratulations Thorsten!!!

Got any data on temperature, humidity level, and incubation duration???

Good to see it in action!!!


----------



## Gregg M

Another species hatched on the S.I.M.

Bearded dragons bred by our friend Billy. 50 days on the S.I.M. container.


----------



## Big Red One

any update on getting some of these over to the uk ? Maybe as a bulk order as Kev was talking about?↲I'm interested in a couple at least.!


----------



## Grond

Gregg

Has anyone tried it with tortoise eggs yet?


----------



## Gregg M

Grond said:


> Gregg
> 
> Has anyone tried it with tortoise eggs yet?


Someone is incubating 3 toeds right now... I will post the results when they come in...

As far as getting them out to the Uk, shipping for one container is $16 usd and the container price is $20 usd... Total would be 36 dollars for one container shipped...

I sent Kev a PM... He never got back to me...

I told him that 30 containers shipped to him would be $710 USD... That brings the shipped price for each container down to $24 USD...


----------



## Kev132

Gregg M said:


> Someone is incubating 3 toeds right now... I will post the results when they come in...
> 
> As far as getting them out to the Uk, shipping for one container is $16 usd and the container price is $20 usd... Total would be 36 dollars for one container shipped...
> 
> I sent Kev a PM... He never got back to me...
> 
> I told him that 30 containers shipped to him would be $710 USD... That brings the shipped price for each container down to $24 USD...


im just trying to get confirmation from everyone first mate, dont want to order 30 and find out only 15 people want one.. :lol2: its a little hard with all the erm... queries in this thread....

could everyone GENUINELY interested in having some of these drop me a pm so we can get a total idea on numbers so we can get the ball rolling propperly....


----------



## GlasgowGecko

Gregg M said:


> Someone is incubating 3 toeds right now... I will post the results when they come in...
> 
> As far as getting them out to the Uk, shipping for one container is $16 usd and the container price is $20 usd... Total would be 36 dollars for one container shipped...
> 
> I sent Kev a PM... He never got back to me...
> 
> I told him that 30 containers shipped to him would be $710 USD... That brings the shipped price for each container down to $24 USD...


So that is currently working out at about £15.20 (give or take). Would there be any taxes to add?



Kev132 said:


> im just trying to get confirmation from everyone first mate, dont want to order 30 and find out only 15 people want one.. :lol2: its a little hard with all the erm... queries in this thread....
> 
> could everyone GENUINELY interested in having some of these drop me a pm so we can get a total idea on numbers so we can get the ball rolling propperly....


If the price above is correct Kev (around £15) then put me down for one. 

Andy


----------



## Kev132

GlasgowGecko said:


> So that is currently working out at about £15.20 (give or take). Would there be any taxes to add?
> 
> 
> 
> If the price above is correct Kev (around £15) then put me down for one.
> 
> Andy


It'd be around that plus postage from me to you, which i dont think will be much 

import tax's are a possibility, you dont really know untill it arrives though :lol2:


----------



## GlasgowGecko

Kev132 said:


> It'd be around that plus postage from me to you, which i dont think will be much
> 
> import tax's are a possibility, you dont really know untill it arrives though :lol2:


Postage cost is not a problem, It'd be nice to know if we're likely to get hit with import tax before hand though.

Andy


----------



## mack-bell

Gregg it was 54 days on female temps but they were the first ones in the SIM and I had them first in cocofibre ;-)

so pure 27 celsius for female and I dunno the humidth I just had much much water with cocofibre as substrate in the box.


----------



## negri21

what are the dimensions of one of these ?


----------



## Kev132

Kev132 said:


> im just trying to get confirmation from everyone first mate, dont want to order 30 and find out only 15 people want one.. :lol2: its a little hard with all the erm... queries in this thread....
> 
> could everyone GENUINELY interested in having some of these drop me a pm so we can get a total idea on numbers so we can get the ball rolling propperly....


Out of all the people seemingly interested, only 2 actually pm'd me interested in these so we need ALOT more interested...


----------



## Captainmatt29

Im in the process of buying one from Gregg too if he ever gets back to me, seems to forget sometimes


----------



## Gregg M

messengermatt said:


> Im in the process of buying one from Gregg too if he ever gets back to me, seems to forget sometimes


Matt, how can I forget about you??? LOL...

I responded in the other thread that I will ship 2 of them out to you for $55 usd total price. That is the same as I send them to my US customers... One will be $35 usd shipped... Like I said, I really want you guys to have this product...: victory:


----------



## johne.ev

Whats the score with these containers then? Are they available in the uk? I'd be interested in a couple to try.
Tbh i find if you get good fertile eggs to start with & the female hasn't held onto them too long before laying, you almost can't fail.
Still be very interesting to see what results you get once a few more people start using them.


----------



## StrictlyMorelia

The 30.48cm L x 20.32cm W x 15.24cm H will be a much better size.

Be interesting to see if any of the UK wholesalers get these in stock as would be interesting to try out.


----------



## HognoseUK

easy to knock up a poor mans equivalent with a plastic shoe box (or any other sized tub you choose) and some egg crate

nice looking product though.


----------



## Gregg M

HognoseUK said:


> easy to knock up a poor mans equivalent with a plastic shoe box (or any other sized tub you choose) and some egg crate
> 
> nice looking product though.


Thanks...
By the time you knock one up, you already spent what the ready made container costs... Besides, you will have a hard time replicating the true function of this container and the quality is unmatched by any available container..


----------



## HognoseUK

Gregg M said:


> Thanks...
> By the time you knock one up, you already spent what the ready made container costs... Besides, you will have a hard time replicating the true function of this container and the quality is unmatched by any available container..


I would choose to disagree. A plastic shoe box is around £1 to £2 ($1.65 - $3.3) and a piece of egg crate is the equivalent. 

So the price is a fair bit cheaper but essentially not quite as pretty. 

Until the 'true function' has been tested and published by an independent body and proven to be better than a DIY version I shall stick to the poorer mans equivalent.


----------



## StrictlyMorelia

Any plans for a UK distributor?


----------



## Nodders

Well after reading that , would'nt mind trying a couple out , price dependant .

Will be my first year breeding next year so these could give me a good start .


----------



## Cmore

I've just sat and read this entire thread. I can see where all the opinions are coming from and both positive and negative. I have also had a look at your website and i would like to use a quote from it


> Eggs incubated in the S.I.M. are surrounded top, bottom and sides by air. The steady
> humidity and (possibly) better Oxygen absorption in these containers allows neonates to develop faster
> resulting in shortened incubation times.


I can see that it would greatly reduce the chances of fungal growth and it eliminates the chance of drowning the egg

Incubation is not a exact science as all clutches of eggs even with the same parentage could hatch +or - several days there are more factors to take into consideration than just temp, humidity, O2 intake and expulsion of CO2 so quicker incubation cannot be guaranteed.

I will try this product if i can convince the other half to allow me to start breeding again


----------



## Brittanicus

I've also sat and read this topic from start to finish, all 17 pages.
It certainly sounds worth a try, earlier it was mentioned that you were trying to get a U.K distributor, has there been any progress on getting one?
If not, have you any idea of how long it will take to get one?
I can understand both sides of the argument, both from breeders who have used the tried and trusted way for years and also from the guys who are marketing what they think is a great product with many plus's.
We are all wanting to see more data, but the only way more data can be attained is by more people using the product. It's impossible to get huge amounts of data from something that is so early in its use. In years to come there will be a lot more data as a lot more people will have used it.
I'm certainly up for giving it a try, as soon as a U.K distributor can be sorted out.
It would also be extremely helpful for both the makers and the breeders if the U.K distributor could be sorted out in time for the main breeding seasons.
Mark.


----------



## StrictlyMorelia

Maybe contact Strictly Reptiles (UK) and see if they are interested in pushing it over here ?


----------



## excession

We should have these in stock on our website in a week or so. We are based in the UK but can ship to the whole of the EU.

If you would like to receive notification of when they arrive then make an account on our website. I will be doing an email-shot once stock is received.

Also you can join our facebook page for stock notifications and news on new products.

Prices are not 100% settled on, but are likely to be £19.49 each. I am also likely to add discounting for 3 units or more.

Please PM if you require further detail.

Stock will be limited on this first shipment!

:2thumb:




StrictlyMorelia said:


> Maybe contact Strictly Reptiles (UK) and see if they are interested in pushing it over here ?





Brittanicus said:


> I've also sat and read this topic from start to finish, all 17 pages.
> It certainly sounds worth a try, earlier it was mentioned that you were trying to get a U.K distributor, has there been any progress on getting one?
> If not, have you any idea of how long it will take to get one?
> I can understand both sides of the argument, both from breeders who have used the tried and trusted way for years and also from the guys who are marketing what they think is a great product with many plus's.
> We are all wanting to see more data, but the only way more data can be attained is by more people using the product. It's impossible to get huge amounts of data from something that is so early in its use. In years to come there will be a lot more data as a lot more people will have used it.
> I'm certainly up for giving it a try, as soon as a U.K distributor can be sorted out.
> It would also be extremely helpful for both the makers and the breeders if the U.K distributor could be sorted out in time for the main breeding seasons.
> Mark.





Cmore said:


> I've just sat and read this entire thread. I can see where all the opinions are coming from and both positive and negative. I have also had a look at your website and i would like to use a quote from it
> 
> 
> I can see that it would greatly reduce the chances of fungal growth and it eliminates the chance of drowning the egg
> 
> Incubation is not a exact science as all clutches of eggs even with the same parentage could hatch +or - several days there are more factors to take into consideration than just temp, humidity, O2 intake and expulsion of CO2 so quicker incubation cannot be guaranteed.
> 
> I will try this product if i can convince the other half to allow me to start breeding again





StrictlyMorelia said:


> Any plans for a UK distributor?


----------



## excession

I have now added these to my site ahead of stock arriving next week.

You can see them and the pricing at Lizard Planet


----------



## red foot marg

excession said:


> I have now added these to my site ahead of stock arriving next week.
> 
> You can see them and the pricing at Lizard Planet


 bit small ! , any large size


----------



## excession

A larger size should be available later in the year : victory:


----------



## Big Red One

Just been on the site - no way to order the SIM - you can add to wishlist but that's all....Are they not on sale yet ?


----------



## excession

I was getting the details on ahead of stock arriving.

My stock is with Customs at the moment, eta next Wednesday 

So will be available to buy as soon as stock is in.


----------



## red foot marg

one question , when using these boxes do you still need to open them each day for air exchange ?


----------



## Spider Call

Just read through the whole thread lol.
I have read a thread on another site and was linked to your website, after having trouble with our trans pecos eggs keeling over on substrate I have been eyeing this up. 
Looks a brilliant little product, and when I begin breeding again I shall be picking a couple of these up.


----------



## Gregg M

red foot marg said:


> one question , when using these boxes do you still need to open them each day for air exchange ?


It is not needed each day... Once a week is all you need to do... The less you mess with your eggs, the better chance they have of hatching...


----------



## excession

We now have stock available on our site at Lizard Planet for pre-order.

Orders will be dispatched this Friday 24th September.

Stock is limited!


----------



## Robk

Just ordered mine :2thumb:

Rob


----------



## excession

Robk said:


> Just ordered mine :2thumb:
> 
> Rob


 
I will be dispatching them tomorrow PM or friday for you!

Thanks for the order Rob.

The containers are selling really well  We hope to be able to show these off at Doncaster on Sunday!


----------



## Robk

Cheers mate look forward to it.

Rob


----------



## excession

These are available for pre order again!


----------

