# Sailfin skeleton - GRAPHIC



## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

The following posts will contain graphic images of dead rodents and later on reptiles in various states of decay.

If you do not wish to see these images PLEASE do not continue to read the post.

You have been warned, i would hope that you do not hold either myself or the forum responsible should you choose to continue and be disturbed by the images.

DISCLAIMER:
The following images are of previously euthanised rodents or of animals that have died through natural causes. NO animals have been harmed in the process.


Now that's done i'll upload the first images.


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## tombraider (May 6, 2006)

really looking forward to these.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

After previous tests with rodents i have now moved on to a larger lizard.

The animal was a Sailfin lizard _Hydrosaurus amboinensis._

In previous tests it was established that mealworms work very quickly but are tempremental when it comes to humidity. For that reason i have skinned and gutted the animal. I have left areas of concern with the skin on (toes) to give me extra time to catch excess eating on the part of the mealworms.

The animal itself was a WC specimen that unfortunately died for unknown reasons (after a close examination with untrained eyes of the major organs i could see nothing obvious).

As you can see by the following pictures this male was approx 3.5 feet and in fairly good condition. Slight damage to the fin although this will not be noticeable in the finished item:


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

The first job to do was removing the skin and as much flesh as safe to do with a large clumsy blad (in comparison to little teeth). After 1.5 hours i have been left with this:










































Towards the end of this part of the job i had started to get cramp in my hands (holding knives in awkward positions) and started to make mistakes. The most noticeable of which was when i accidentaly broke off half of the tail. Towards the end it is very fragile without skin to hold it all together so i made the decison to stop before i caused further damage.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

I am EXTREMELY unhappy at myself for making such a mistake, i should know better than to continue when i am not working as precisely as i can. The damage looks only to be flesh and not bone so it may be ok, i will know soon enough.
Either way, i have left this section with the skin and flesh on. If the mealworms struggle i will look at other options. The seperate tail section:










My apolgies for the overall pic quality, my hands had not stopped cramping fully while i was trying to hold the camera still.

I have placed the remains in a viv to "cook" overnight. Tomorrow when the remains have dried out i will look at moving them to a container so i can add mealworms and carry out regular observations (ie 2 hourly as a maximum)


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

it looks like your gonna get a lot cleaner result than the mouse, how are you planning to keep the bones together when done?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Yeah, it should be quite a clean job. I will be using less worms than previously aswell so i can keep a close eye on what goes on.

The bones will be held together with either superglue or epoxy resin. The whole thing will then get a thin coat of varnish that should not only keep the bones in good condition but will add to the general strength of the joints


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

so the tail shouldn't be an issue then:smile:


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## Kev132 (Aug 13, 2006)

Interesting. cant wait to see the finnished project.... good luck mate


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## dannyj (Jan 23, 2007)

That looks awsome

Whats next??


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

The remains are currently drying out. Tomorrow i will check on them and if they have dried out enough i will put the worms to them.


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## weeminx (Oct 28, 2006)

can i just say wow! i love sailfins.beautiful lizards.! will be interesting to see the finished project.how many are u planning on doing?what lizards? sorry if ive missed this info on other posts.are u married? reason i ask is if my man was doing this is my house i would of bannished him to the shed.:lol2:


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

I like sailfins aswell, i was gutted when this male died.

Not sure how many or what as of yet - see how it goes.

Yes, i'm married - i usually wait till she goes to work or tell her to go have a relaxing bath


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## weeminx (Oct 28, 2006)

:lol2: just be careful u dont leave any bits of flesh lying around and she'll never know.: victory: 

well done on doing this btw its fascinating (if at times a tad gross).lol....will keep checking back to see where u are at.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

I'm just going to see how it's drying out now.....


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## Fire Bellied (Nov 24, 2006)

Man, How interesting is this!!!???!!!

I was completely amazed (TOTAL UNDERSTATEMENT!!!) with how quickly the mealies chomped on the Multimamate....And then on the Rat......So now, I'm just sitting here patiently, watching the screen (amid doing other stuff)......And am eagerly awaiting the next episode of "RETURN OF THE KILLER MEALIES!!!!"

Great work Dan!

Not something I could personally do, due more to the fact that the wife would disown me....But at least now my curiosity can be quenched from watching you & I can have a smell free house: MARVELLOUS!!!

Cheers...And I hope all continues to go well!...I'm keeping 'em crossed!!!

Steve.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2007)

eeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwww
i could not bring myself to do that!!!!!

couldnt you just bury it like everyone else???!!! lol


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## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

burying doesn't work. the bones get damaged, you loose bits, even on a large, solid skull like a deer you end up loosing the teeth and nasle bones etc. it is far too destructive.

good job on de-fleshing the carcass. I know how tedious that gets, espesualy around the ribs, and spine. if your hands have started working again you might want to remove the eyes as well. it is fairly easy to do, and it will save a lot of moisture contaminating the mealworms, as you will realise if you split one. as long as the bone in the tail is not damaged (I doubt it will be, it is far more likely to snap between the bones) it should not be any issue at all. every bone will have to be seperated anyway to clean and bleach them properly.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

As the remains were placed on a plastic bag within the viv i have had to turn it over to ensure both sides are dried out. If i'm lucky i'll be able to start with the worms tonight, otherwise i will have to wait until tomorrow. I'll check on it in another couple of hours to check the progress.

I'm glad everyone's enjoying the thread.

Incidentally, while last night was by far the smelliest part of all of this so far it has since reduced in smell considerably. The worst part was revielling (is that spelled correctly? It doesn't look right) the major organs. Now they have gone it is just like leaving a piece of chicken to dry out so there is little to no smell.

I am hoping that once the flesh has dried out i will be able to peal little bits of the skeleton (like a chicken bone) so i will be able to remove more. I am basing this on the difference between cutting raw and cooked chicken flesh.


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## Cara (Oct 30, 2006)

revealing


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2007)

are you being serious???
sorry...but i dont understand why and how you can do it...
worms?you have worms in your house??
think ive missed summit here lol,,what u gonna do with it???


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## Nat (Jan 26, 2005)

Iv got to agree with laura retic....wat is this in aid of? wat are you going to do with the finished result/skeleton?
Sorry if iv missed previous posts but normally things like Graphic images dont look are enough to turn me away lol


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## Cara (Oct 30, 2006)

lol if you read the other thread (same section I think) I gather he wants to mount reptile skeletons in front of thier skins on a wall kinda thing, hes tried it with a mouse and a rat (to get an idea of how to do it) and now is moving onto reptile skeletons, hes doing this one first as I think he said he had two of them.... (I think - please feel free to correct me where necessary Retic )


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Laura, Nat - You kinda need to read the following topics to get the jist of what's going on:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/18596-removing-flesh.html#post273247

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/general-herp-chat/18942-flesh-removal-tests-graphic.html#post279450

If the pictures concern you then just be ready with the mouse to skip over them.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

We're off !!!

At 20:30 i added the worms.

Unlike previous experiments this subject has been placed in a large container and has not been covered in the worms. This time i have only added 160g of worms.
This time i have also added 2 or 3 (litterally) large mealworms, around a dozen pupae and 3 beetles.
Because i have added the beetles and pupae i have also placed this container over a heat source (i will measure the temps when it has settled)

There are less worms so i can keep a closer eye on what's going on as they will take longer to carry out the job. Also because they are going to take longer the beetles and pupae are in there to ensure a continuous supply of worms in case they die off before completing the job.

The heat not only serves to speed up the worms and their various processes but will help to finish off drying any parts of the remains that are still wet. Because it was drying on a plastic bag previously it kept building condensation on the underside and defeating the object of drying it out.

Pics:










































As you can see in the last pic there is only a thin, dry film connecting the sail spines so i expect this will go first.

I will be checking at regular intervals.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Did you also consider maggotts?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

I did but there are several draw backs that put me off. 
First, they would need to stay inside as it is too cold outside, problem there is them changing to flies - the last thing i want is a pints worth of nasty flies flying around the house.
Secondly, the process is apparently a very smelly way of doing it.
Thirdly, i have been told that maggots are extremely agressive and can cause high levels of bone damage where others don't.


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## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

just out of intrest, where did you hear that maggots damage the bones? I am not disagreing with them but I have never had the slightest bit of damage, even on realy tiny bones. maybe they were using a diferent species?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

May get into trouble for pointing you to a diff forum, nevermind:

Venomdoc Forums :: View topic - Skeleton removal


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Todays updates:


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2007)

read the other topic about it...
see what your doing now....however i could not do it lol
i hate worms and eeewww stuff like that...

cant wait to see finished piece though.

do you do humans?


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## Hammer Man (Apr 1, 2006)

Fascinating Dan, well done! I was watching the other topic where you done the rat with great interest and am no going to watch this one with even more interest! Thanks for sharing this with us!


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

yeah i cant wait to see the result looks like a messy job but worth it i would think


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## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

I see what you meant about the maggots now. yeah, although they do not actuly damage the bone, they will eat absoloutly everything else, including the conective tissue, so the various plates and different pieces that make up the skull will sometimes come apart. it means that the bones are very well cleaned but it can be difficult to re-assemble them again, espesualy if you are not used to recognising what each bit is, which can be harder than it sounds.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

corvid2e1 said:


> espesualy if you are not used to recognising what each bit is, which can be harder than it sounds.


I think it is safe to say i fall well into this category!!

One of the reasons i am taking photos is so i can piece it together later on after it's all fallen apart:lol2: 

Thanks for the positive replies, nice to see i'm not the only one interested in this.

Laura, no comment on your last question for fear of investigation by the C.P.S. :lol2:


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## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

this is a razorbill skull that I have recently done with wild maggots, but not had the chance to re-construct it yet. they do not always fall apart this badly, I think this is the worst one yet, although it is interesting to see just how many diferent pieces make up the skull. you tend to think of it as just one bone.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

It does look very clean, lovelly colour to it.

Can you put up some pics as you put it together? Be nice to see it on the way to the finished piece.

After seeing more of the tail now it has started to be eaten i am wondering about boiling this off - it seems as if it will be relatively safe to do so. Hmmmm, not sure


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## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

I can't realy comment on boiling, as I have never had much luck with it. we have realy hard water here so it just ends up covered in limescale, which is realy dificult to clean off. one thing to think about though, as it comes apart, all the bones will get mixed up, and putting vertibrae back in the right order is a nightmare, espesualy on something with such a long tail. if there is enough of a hole through the middle where the spinal collum goes then maybe try pushing a piece of wire down it to hold them together. you will have to try and figure that one out. I might actuly go and do the skull now, since I am actuly home during daylight for once. I will take some pictures as I do it.


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## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

here are the pics of the razorbill now. turned out to be quite a tricky one to put back together actuly. the bird was a juvinile so the bones had not fully fuzed yet, which also explains why it fell apart so easily in the first place.
anyway here is everything set out before I started. the compleat skull is one I already had of a guillemot, a very similar species so I was using it for reference in case there were any bits I couldn't figure out. I also divided the pieces up into upper and lower jaw to make it easier.










pieces of the upper beak










the beak compleated










pieces of the lower beak










and compleated


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## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

and the finnished skull, with the guillemot behind. that stage took longer than expected, as when I lined up the two jaws I realised something had gone wrong and the top was longer than the bottom. I ended up having to take the top section apart again, and re-build it once I had figured out what I did wrong.


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## t-bo (Jan 26, 2005)

Cool, lookin good


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Nice work, are you going to preserve them in some way or leave them as is?


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## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

they should be fine as they are. that guillemot I was using is at least 3 years old (I can't remember exactly when I did it), and I have plenty much older than that, all still in perfect condition. I have a rams skull that I have kept outside for the last 2 years and even that is still holding up fine.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

I wonder if it's going to be worth me varnishing then? Hmmmm.....


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## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

it will help to hold it together, although if it is glued properly it shouldn't realy need it. it will give it a nice glossy finnish too, but weather that is better than the natural look is a mater of opinion. to preserve it though, I wouldn't have thought it is that importaint.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

So many decisions that are going to have to wait until i get closer, it's driving me mad :lol2: 

Right, must get over to Ebay - i'm going to need a microscope for the smaller animals :shock:


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## Gemificus (Jan 26, 2007)

this may be a silly suggestion but did you ever think to get one of those giant magnifying glasses from the pound shop for the smaller parts,

i get them for when i do my art they are great for a tonne of things plus you wont need to pay shipping,


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

any chance of an update please retic?

pretty pleas


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## bomar666 (Nov 3, 2006)

how is it coming along cant wait to see the new pics


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

I'll update tonight - ticking along nicely....


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2007)

quite getting into this topic now lol


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Apolgies for the delayed update.

The little critters are doing the job nicely:


































As you can see they are slowly but surely munching away. There have been some losses lately though so i will be replenishing the numbers with some fresh worms over the next few days.


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## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

its looking good. how is the skull doing, since there was a bit more meat there to begin with? also, the bones look quite rough in the pics but I am asuming that is just dust and remaining bits of flesh. has there been any bone damage at all?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

The skull is pretty much untouched, i am guessing this is because it is the wettest part of the body and they have started on the dry areas first.

There is no bone damage at all, even the sail spines are still looking good. I was concerned about those as they are quite flimsy but they are fine so far.


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## Rubber-man (Dec 23, 2006)

A few questions for you Dan,

Do the meal worms eat through cartilage as well as flesh? 

With mammels could they eat throgh fur, hair and feathers? 

Where do you get the worms from?

I'm finding this fascinating,

Regards,

Phil


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

They only seem to be eating through flesh at the moment. However i suspect this is because they find it easier to eat, when they run out of flesh they will likely move on to soft bone and cartiledge structures.

They haven't eaten through the skin on this lizard but i have no doubt they could eat through fur if needed.

They are just regular meal worms, available most places.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I give my mealworm colonies old mice that I can't find any snakes to eat instead of chucking them away, they eat the skin, the flesh, and even most of the bones/cartilidge, i usually only get a tiny skull left, the rest fragments too small and gets sieved out when i change them over. I'd rather them eat it than throw it away!

So they will definitely eat the skin/fur of a mouse, never had anything larger going spare


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## Rubber-man (Dec 23, 2006)

Might have to get myself some meal worms.

I'll feed my neighbors kid to them, noisy lil bugger!


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## Gemificus (Jan 26, 2007)

Rubber-man said:


> Might have to get myself some meal worms.
> 
> I'll feed my neighbors kid to them, noisy lil bugger!


 
Hehehehe :no1:


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2007)

Rubber-man said:


> Might have to get myself some meal worms.
> 
> I'll feed my neighbors kid to them, noisy lil bugger!


 
lol...good idea!:smile:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

waits eagerly for more update's

Jay


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## Blazey (Apr 30, 2006)

I havent made much comment on these threads but i've been watching and i've found it all quite interesting so far. Will be interesting to see how the sailfin ends up.


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## serpentkid100 (Mar 7, 2006)

its really odd, but really interesting, never thought of it being done that way


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Sorry, will do some more updates shortly....


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

really odd but really interesting think thats how id describe it too lol,im fasinated to find out how it all turns out,but i hate looking at the mealie pics,flesh bones poo n pee fine but mealies


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## Cara (Oct 30, 2006)

Retic - Wheres the update?!?!


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## t-bo (Jan 26, 2005)

Yeah been a while.. chop chop


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

are they done yet, they been munching for 15 days lol tell em to hurry up


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

sorry, i keep forgetting to do an update.

I'll do one later....


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## CyberFae (Feb 25, 2006)

Very interesting stuff indeed! Muchly enjoying this topic.


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## LeeH (Jan 26, 2005)

really fascinating stuff


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Came across this web site while looking for something else. Scroll to the bottom of the page for lots of prepared skeletons

Natrix



Google Image Result for http://bioweb.wku.edu/faculty/huskey/Crocodile%20monitor%20lateral1.jpg


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## Blazey (Apr 30, 2006)

they are pretty amazing stuff  i particularly like the fish ones.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

I have chosen not to update as the progress is very slow. When i get some pics and you can see a significant difference i'll put some up.

I may have to add yet more mealies as the progress is a little too slow for my liking.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

any updates yet? please?


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## jayl (Feb 18, 2007)

The suspense is killin me... cant wait for the next update.
This is a bit grusome , but SO interesting. :smile:


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## eddygecko (Feb 14, 2007)

Come on any updates yet! tell them mealies to much faster!


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## markhill (Sep 22, 2006)

dragged back up from the depths

what ever happened to this Dan?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

It was put in a box ready to be mounted after i move.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

Pics?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

darkdan99 said:


> Pics?


Chances of me unpacking to take pics = 0 :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Can't beleive I never followed these threads.

Totally fascinating Dan - is taxidermy and putting bones together a regular hobby for you or is it something that had only begun when you started this project?

Am really keen to see how it all went


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## Iliria (Jan 19, 2007)

reticulatus said:


> Chances of me unpacking to take pics = 0 :Na_Na_Na_Na:


even if we ask you reeeally nicely?

just kidding, will be cool to see though if you can take pics post move


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

brittone05 said:


> Can't beleive I never followed these threads.
> 
> Totally fascinating Dan - is taxidermy and putting bones together a regular hobby for you or is it something that had only begun when you started this project?
> 
> Am really keen to see how it all went


It started with this and progressed to mounting snake skins.
It would be another hobby but i never seem to find the time to do it anymore.


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## xxpaintxx (Mar 16, 2009)

hey im looking to this to my snake.
and a fellow RFUKer suggested this link.
its amazing! thank you!

what happens next?


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

xxpaintxx said:


> hey im looking to this to my snake.
> and a fellow RFUKer suggested this link.
> its amazing! thank you!
> 
> what happens next?


xxpaintxx
This is an old topic from Jan 2007. My guess it is well finished by now. You are probably best PM'ing Dan, the person who started this thread and asking him direct. He is still an active member on this forum, his profile suggests he was last here about twenty days ago.

Natrix


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## Avpl (Nov 13, 2007)

Natrix said:


> xxpaintxx
> This is an old topic from Jan 2007. My guess it is well finished by now. You are probably best PM'ing Dan, the person who started this thread and asking him direct. He is still an active member on this forum, his profile suggests he was last here about twenty days ago.
> 
> Natrix


Yes, pm him...

Eventhough i really really want to see updates/the final skeleton:whistling2:


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## JustJordan (Jul 2, 2008)

Is love to see the updates too, maybe ask him to up date this thread?


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