# Are the RSPCA allowed to inspect your house without permission?



## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

If you have read the RIP thread you will know we had a house fire today. We were out on a job at the time around 3 hours away from home so got a friend to come round to the house. When we got home she said the RSPCA had been there lookin at the animals, they left us a little assessment form with their thoughts on- all were fine apart from some didnt have access to water- which were some beardies that have never drank out of a bowl n get sprays, and a uro that gets water put in once a week as advised by the seller, and also "is the animal contained in the right environment?"- they said no........but yet questions further down the page ask if the animal is kept in the correct environment to express its normal behaviour, is protected from pain, injury, disease, suffering fear or distress- to which they say yes- which is refering to their housing. so how HTF can they be kept in the correct housing free from all those things but yet not being contained within a suitable environment? im assuming they are referrin to the amount of animals we have, but all are in vivs so it makes no difference to them how many are in one room n so i dont see why this is relevant? all other aspects were fine.

the thing is the RSPCA did this before we got home, without our permission n had gone before we got back...apparently its procedure when animals are involved with a house fire......some have told me thats complete crap n they had no right coming into the property like they did, does anyone know whats true? i think the police phoned them, as i said, they told my friend it was standard procedure, so can the police allow them access without our consent? We havent actually seen or spoken to a police officer or a fire man!!!!!!!!!

Also i was mortified to come in n find this on the cooker

















For some strange unknown reason theyde taken one of our beardies out its 4x2x2 viv with 2 other beardies in, n put it in a tiny f*ckin daz tub with a few tiny air holes punched into it!!!!!!!! it stank of lemon liquid and the beardie that is actually a citrus snow and a lovely yellow colour, was all dark and very stressed!!! WTF did they move him out his viv?!!? rung the RSPCA but the inspector wasnt there so he will ring me when hes in. When asked if i wanted to take part in any phone and customer service questionarres on the phone i said " no cos i dont think much of the RSPCA!!!!!!" just wait til the inspector rings me!:bash: poor beardie!

:censor::bash::censor::bash::censor:



what do you guys think?!


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

they are crap....i guess the fire brigade called them, thinking they were helping but i still cannot see that they are allowed in..i have told them to p:censor: off many times..they really havent a clue and in the washing powder tub. well thats beyond belief!! 

fight them, there in the wrong, i threatend them to take me to court but they wouldnt...

sorry about the fire, let us know how you get on!


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## dani11983 (Mar 17, 2007)

No. They have no legal right to enter your property without permission unless accompanied by a police officer and even then I **think** they may need a warrant.

Edit: though this might be special circumstances when the homeowner isn't present and animals are kept at the property. Otherwise, I believe the above is correct.


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## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

As we've discussed on MSN, I'm really sorry to hear of your fire and the loss of your leos (R.I.P). A house fire is my worst nightmare and I cannot imagine what you're going through right now

The RSPCA have as much authority as a charity shop cashier and Im sick to the back teeth of them marching around saying whats what. I dont believe they can enter your property without your permission/warrant, and they had NO right whatsoever to go piddling about with your animals like that!!

Why the HELL move them around??!! Thats another thing that gets to me about them, the "oh its only a lizard" attitude, Would they have done the same to a dog or a cat!!?? I doubt it very much-fluffy things can be used on 
campaign posters!!!!

Roll on that phonecall eh?

You're all in my thoughts *hug* Sam x


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

will have someone get back to you on this hon, just need to get in touch with them first..

no, the rspca, in theory should not access your premises without permission, however in the case of a fire with animals involved i would imagine its handled differently.. 

however, the way it was done, i think, needs looking into, if nothing else than for the treatment of the beardie, have given rory a heads into this thread and we'll buzz a few people tomorrow when they surface..

had not heard about your fire, but hope all is well for you guys and the critters.. 

atb

N&R


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

dani11983 said:


> No. They have no legal right to enter your property without permission unless accompanied by a police officer and even then I **think** they may need a warrant.


i dont know the full details but i think it was the police that contacted them cos there were animals involved in a house fire............standard procedure now aparently! but what about the beardie in a box?!?!?


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## tarantulabarn (Apr 21, 2005)

i would imagine in this instance the polce allowed them in thinking they were helping not realising that the rspca have absolutely no idea unless the animal has fur or feathers and they can confiscate it to sell on for profit, had you have returned while they were in attendance you would have been well within your rights to ask them to go forth and multiply!


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## Blazin (Mar 25, 2007)

i'm really sorry for your losses cat  how horrible but if you put it into comparrasion of what could of happened i spose its not as bad but horrible non the less. 
i cant believe they put the beardy in a tub like that, i dont like my shoes being moved let alone my pets messed around with!!! get on the phone to them and give um a peice of my mind i would. goodluck, dan.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> i dont know the full details but i think it was the police that contacted them cos there were animals involved in a house fire............standard procedure now aparently! but what about the beardie in a box?!?!?


Hi there, 

Please look ou for my pm

Rory


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

but what about them puttin the beardie in the tiny box for no reason?!?!? takin it out of its perfectly fine viv n puttin it there?!?! what was the point!!!!!!!!????

should get a phone call tomorrow n just you wait, ill bloody bury them!


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## ip3kid (May 21, 2008)

thats disgraceful, they have no right to move your animals around

if they came round my house and put my beardy in a small tub, i would fly at em

and sorry to hear bout your geckos

R.I.P


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

we're not particularly bothered about the inspection, cos we had nothin to worry about, and as the assessment shows, our keeping is fine, its the beardie in the tub thats drivin me mad, cos it wouldnt have been the police or the fire men who moved it, theyde have no reason to

ta rory, im awaiting


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

thanks ip, much appreciated, n thanks to all others who have posted on this thread

its been suggested by a couple of people that the RSPCA intended on takin the beardie but forgot it.......why would they take just that one?!!? also we've got big transportin tubs all over the house! why use a frikkin daz tub? or surely if they were called to a house with lots of animals n suspected they might have to take some away why didnt they have carriers in their van??!?!

also if they were concerned it was distressed..........a) why put it in a tiny tub? n b)..if they were that concerned how could they forget it?!?!


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

as i said over msn uber huggles for your losses and the stress its caused. I cant think of any logical reason why they would move a beardy. Rember they will have limited if any knowledge or beardies or in fact any reptiles. They are going to argue that they did the right thing, but wait and see what they say tomorrow rather then trying to speculate as it will only cause more worry for you and thats not what you need.

hugs


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## Tomm (Jan 4, 2008)

sorry to hear about your hectic day! must be horrible and the RSPCA seems to have added insult to injury! 

either way, whatever their intentions things have gone tits up big time! What they have done with you BD is TOTALY unacceptable! there is no reason what so ever they should have done that, i would not be supprised if they try to fob it off someone else and pass the buck. but either way they are 200% in the wrong! 

As for coming into your house without your permission as far as i can see is like any other tom dick or harry walking into your house, they are not the police and they do not have the same althority as they do as we all know and as far as i knew they had to have a warrant to come into your property withought your permision and they obviously didnt have one so i think you have a lot to throw at them! 

Do your best dude!


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

thanks jay

im not tryna speculate, im tryna just work out why they would do this. I cant honestly think of any reasons why an officer, be it police or fire, would move this beardie. This one came from a viv in the hall downstairs so if they were worried about it gettin smoke inhalation then why leave the other 4 there? <<2 in each viv>>


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

I would love to sum them up in two words but i forgot to look if its in 18+. 


Totally usless, make a formal complaint :bash:


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

stephenie191 said:


> I would love to sum them up in two words but i forgot to look if its in 18+.
> 
> 
> Totally usless, make a formal complaint :bash:


The logical step before this is taken forwards as a formal complaint is to secure all the details first and then make a decision based upon that information.

R


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

yus..

it could have an innocent reason..

we all know, or if we know BD's we know..

that sometimes when they are basking, they gape..

it could have been that someone saw this, thought it was gasping for breath and so moved it..

ok.. i agree.. a daz box on the cooker is not the way forward.. but i know reptiles and i would know what to do in the situation...

say it was some bobby or fireman thinking he was helping.. and then got distracted by the rest of the fire... we just don't know the reason as yet. 

for now, as i said to emma on pm.. guys.. chill out.. relax a bit.. you have had an awful day and the shock to you must be huge.. for now, if the animals are all safe, and the house is secure for the time being.. then just take a deep breath and get some rest, there will be enough to sort out in the morning as it is.. 

for now, there is nothing that can be done bar save your strength for the day ahead.. chin up and good luck, and make sure you make that call in the morning.. he does after all, get paid to advise people just like you.. and he does know his stuff on shit like this.

*hugs*

N


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

ok auntie nerys, am off to bed, in a smoke stained smelly room 

night all n thanks guys xxx


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

The RSPCA have NO rights to enter your premesis. Id get in contact with the police and ask why they were allowed on your premesis. Legal action may be required if no warrant naming individuals allowed on the property was issued (which i assume it hasn't since the police didn't give you one). What they have essentially done is trespassing, moving animals about and endangering their lifes after an incident that was harmful to them by putting them in a tub that has traces of chemical's. Id check your other animals too to see if any have been removed.

Im willing to be they are assuming your too stressed about the house to actually deal with them.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> The RSPCA have NO rights to enter your premesis. Id get in contact with the police and ask why they were allowed on your premesis. Legal action may be required if no warrant naming individuals allowed on the property was issued (which i assume it hasn't since the police didn't give you one). What they have essentially done is trespassing, moving animals about and endangering their lifes after an incident that was harmful to them by putting them in a tub that has traces of chemical's. Id check your other animals too to see if any have been removed.


all animals are accounted for chris! ive checked! 

you get my pics hun?


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> all animals are accounted for chris! ive checked!
> 
> you get my pics hun?


I did and sam will see them tomoz as my phone is messing up. Looking at the damage caused by the fire and the amount of animals you have i was expecting more fatality's to be honest but thankfully thats not the case.

Good luck and keep us updated. : victory:


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## Renfield (May 20, 2008)

First off girls i'd like you to know you are in my thoughts at this time and i'm sorry for your losses.

_I have tried to find out what i can and this is the only thing that i found searching the internet._


RSPCA inspectors have the same status as any other private individual. As explained above, the AWA is a common informers’ Act, so anyone can prosecute. This is the same as the 1911 Act and a lot of other legislation. The RSPCA have not been given, nor have they sought, any new powers. 

· RSPCA inspectors have no rights of entry or inspection and enjoy none of the statutory powers of enforcement which under the Act belong only to the police or inspectors appointed under the Animal Welfare Act as Animal Welfare Act inspectors.

· If an RSPCA inspector wishes to enter private property he would need to be accompanied by a police constable or an Animal Welfare Act inspector. Both a police constable and Animal Welfare Act inspector must comply with the provisions on enforcement and entry as set out in the Act.

_the link for the full article is _

_http://www.countryside-alliance.org.uk/political/general/enforcement-of-the-animal-welfare-act-2006/_


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Poor beardie and I absolutely agree with you Cat it would appear that they had no good reason to move it, unless it was gaping and they thought it was suffocating or something, but logically a little tub in the kitchen when it was in a large viv downstairs just doesn't make sense. 

And I must be honest as soon as I saw the photograph my first thought was "smell" - washing powder smells so strong it hangs around forever sticking to the plastic. poor little beardie!!

Let's know what happens and if they haven't rung you back by now (it's after 9:00am) ring them again and keep ringing them until you speak to someone. This is not acceptable!


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## sarah1207 (Dec 17, 2007)

oh cat and ditta im so sorry u have had to oput up with this, i hope after a full nights sleep all the animals are ok, and u and ditta are ok
the poor little beardie squashed in to a tiny smelly washing powder tub, why they have done that to the poorr little mite i would phone them today and demand to know why.
how bad is the house?


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

i dont think as a organization they have the right to enter your house BUT if they were listed as a police advisor (i cant remember the official title) as some behaviour expert/physiologist /physics are then they can at the police's request (but the individual has to have all the right forms signed etc) but i dont think thats the issues 

personally i would make a serious complaint and attempt to have whoeva put that beardie in the daz tub fired for animal cruelty not only was it in a confined space but exposed to harmful chemicals. u do have a case and u could get the guy fired. (and i hope u do)

it could quite easily been another tragedy. 

p.s. sorry about your losses


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## Kami22 (Apr 21, 2008)

Surely if you were an RSPCA officer you would try to learn about ALL animals? just shows that they dont really care after all...

Poor beardie, hope he/she is ok...


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

hello Cat

IM just off phone to ditta... IM so so sorry im far away and cant come help.. you both know I would in a heartbeat if i was closer...

Ive no idea bout the rspca... i just want you to both know IM so glad everyone else apart from the wee leos are ok..

I will talk to you both later..

Scott me and the girls send our love as always , I am just sorry we cant be nearer to help...

xx


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> The RSPCA have NO rights to enter your premesis. Id get in contact with the police and ask why they were allowed on your premesis. Legal action may be required if no warrant naming individuals allowed on the property was issued (which i assume it hasn't since the police didn't give you one). What they have essentially done is trespassing, moving animals about and endangering their lifes after an incident that was harmful to them by putting them in a tub that has traces of chemical's. Id check your other animals too to see if any have been removed.
> 
> Im willing to be they are assuming your too stressed about the house to actually deal with them.


they would have been allowed access by the police because of the fire, to make sure the animals were ok. Ok they're crap and know nish about reptiles but the police need to call somebody in to check them.

1 - police let them in and they're trespassing
2 - police don't let them in and there's demands to know why nobody checked to make sure the animals were ok


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

just rung chris newman, hes away for a few days but the lady on the phone said she would get someone to ring me back

pics of house are comin.......


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

the ceiling








the bathroom window.or where it should be








where the fire started in a cupboard where all my clothes were:bash:








from the stairs lookin towards the bathroom and rat room, luckily rat room door was shut but the fire must have got to it near the end so its gone too 








the garden....there is a pond under there somewhere.....


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

OMG


i am so relieved you are both ok...

i dont have the right words to say just now

xx


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## C_Strike (Feb 20, 2007)

so sorry for you!

I would be going loopy in that situation, i couldnt let them off with out a grilling for enterring without consent, or contact. I am disgusted at the placement of the beardie in the daz tub.. i mean common even an idiotshould know Daz contains some pretty nast chemicals.. id go mental at that, its effectively damaging/ poisoning your beardie. Breathing im sure would have been affected, and maybe some dermatitis? though dounno how likely that is with Beardies scaled cuticle.
RSPCA suck arse, and do nothing but instill worry..not for bad keeping, but for bad regulating and dickhead officers


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## klair328 (Nov 15, 2006)

im soo sorry chick.. stoopid rspca know feck all i had a mystery report about me and they admitted knowing hee haw about reps..
if u were closer id offer yas a place to stay till your house got cleared up.. if your up forr a wee holiday to scotland ur welcome to!


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Oh no, i`m so sorry to hear about this, and of your losses. It must be awful for you!

With the RSPCA, i`m pretty certain they would have been called and given access by the police..
Technically fire officers have no access rights either so they too must have had authorisation to go inside, but i`m sure they`d get more than slated if they allowed the house to burn to the ground on a formality, so i guess its the police and fire officers just doing their job. It could be there was an original plan to remove all animals until the fire was under control, but theyb found there was no need, which would make sense. Granted the beardie left in the tub on the cooker is awful, but surely better than coming home to a pile of smouldering bricks with animals left inside? :whistling2:


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## Woodi (Oct 11, 2007)

If the RSPCA came to mine it would look somethinglike this:-









The nerve of it, if the welfare of animals is of concern, why would they send in inspector who probably know jack s**t about reps.

Beardie in a Daz box, now that should be reported!!


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## declanjr (Aug 8, 2007)

some may not agree with this but if they did this to me i would tear the inspector to shreds. no one comes in my house without my say so and to touch your animals that would be it.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

spirit975 said:


> Oh no, i`m so sorry to hear about this, and of your losses. It must be awful for you!
> 
> With the RSPCA, i`m pretty certain they would have been called and given access by the police..
> Technically fire officers have no access rights either so they too must have had authorisation to go inside, but i`m sure they`d get more than slated if they allowed the house to burn to the ground on a formality, so i guess its the police and fire officers just doing their job. It could be there was an original plan to remove all animals until the fire was under control, but theyb found there was no need, which would make sense. Granted the beardie left in the tub on the cooker is awful, but surely better than coming home to a pile of smouldering bricks with animals left inside? :whistling2:


 
oh yeah spirit it is better, im not sayin that, im not even that bothered that they inspected the place, cos we had no worries at all, its the beardie in the tub im annoyed about cos they didnt move his viv mates or anyone else, it puzzles me n at an already distressin time for us it just made it worse when i found my usually very light coloured beardie stuffed in a tub all black and miserable


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

we have living fish!!!!!!!!!!!

ditta and her brother have just pulled all the wreckage out the pond tryna save them n theyre alive!!! cant see if there are any losses cos ofthe gren stuf on the top of the pond but we can see a couple swimmin about


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## Woodi (Oct 11, 2007)

I don't think!!!!! i'd mind if it was for the welfare of my reps after a fire, aslong the inspector had knowledge, the reptile industry is constantly growing but not the RSPCA's knowledge. Obviously the inspector's here had neither knowledge or common sense. The Daz box shows that!!:bash:


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## herp mad (Jul 29, 2008)

The RSPCA have no right going into your house without you pimision. The police can't give them pimision toenter without a worant to give them acsess. 

When it come round to Reptiles the RSPCA dont have a clue.


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## Andy b 1 (May 14, 2007)

any news about the phonecall?


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

Andy b 1 said:


> any news about the phonecall?


about the rspca?? theyve not contacted me n until someone from chris' office contacts me, im not contacting them as i want to discus it with him first before goin off on one. I need to know that im justified in my grievance. As soon as i have though you guys will be the first to know


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

id say the dragon stil smelling of lemon detergent today is a bloody grievance..

so sorry for all of this cat


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> oh yeah spirit it is better, im not sayin that, im not even that bothered that they inspected the place, cos we had no worries at all, its the beardie in the tub im annoyed about cos they didnt move his viv mates or anyone else, it puzzles me n at an already distressin time for us it just made it worse when i found my usually very light coloured beardie stuffed in a tub all black and miserable


Yeah i can understand it wasn`t nice for you, especially as he looks like he was forgotten about. I`ve a feeling it may be down to the fire crew though rather than the RSPCA, as they obviously would have been first on scene. Regardless though it would be good to get some answers. Good luck!



herp mad said:


> The RSPCA have no right going into your house without you pimision. The police can't give them pimision toenter without a worant to give them acsess.


Thats not quite true, in an emergency situation, ie a 999 call, a police warrant is not needed by the boys in blue to enter a property and give others authorisation to do so if they see it as appropriate.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

spirit975 said:


> Yeah i can understand it wasn`t nice for you, especially as he looks like he was forgotten about. I`ve a feeling it may be down to the fire crew though rather than the RSPCA, as they obviously would have been first on scene. Regardless though it would be good to get some answers. Good luck!


why would the fire crew move one beardie n not the others though? id have thought their priority would be the fire


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## lynneowen1 (Jun 5, 2008)

OMG how did the fire start? silly rspca putting him in a daz box they all have carriers in their van why put him in there? hope they have a good explanation for you!
pleased their are lots of survivors hun!


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

lynneowen1 said:


> OMG how did the fire start? silly rspca putting him in a daz box they all have carriers in their van why put him in there? hope they have a good explanation for you!
> pleased their are lots of survivors hun!


 
only thing we can put it down to is an electrical fault in the airing cupboard, though seeing as no fire or policemen have contacted us we only have our own conclusions to go on


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## bampoisongirl (Mar 28, 2008)

Hi there, i just wanted to say how sorry i am for your losses and your damage, but that i am glad the living damages werent worse. i hope that you give the RSPCA a good grilling, if it was me i dont think i would be able to keep my temper. i think they are a complete waste of space when it comes to reptiles AND other animals sometimes. I'd definately find out what went on, and if there is no explaination for the beardie in the Daz box, give them a formal complaint.

I want to know though (what everyone thinks) is there SOMETHING we can all do about the RSPCA? Is there no way we can write a big petition between us or something so that there has to be at least one knowlegable person on each RSPCA team that knows about reptiles? i know we all moan about the RSPCA but i dont see anyone actually trying to do anything about it, and the result is that more and more people are becoming angry, distressed and hurt by their lack of knowledge.

My thoughts are with you again xx


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## dracco (May 17, 2008)

so sorry for you it must have been so worrying and then to get home and find the poor beardie stuck in that wee tub I would be so angry:bash:


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Crikey, so sorry to hear about this! As others have said they could have seen it gaping and thought it was stressed possibly. I've spoken to people before who've heard that snakes feel more secure in small spaces and presume all reptiles are the same. The best you can do, when you've spoken to chris ofc is ask to talk to the rspca official who dealt with the situation and ask them WHY they did it. It might be an innocent reason like above. Hope you get it all sorted and that the remaining animals aren't to stressed by the whole thing and are okay. :grouphug:


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

cheers guys


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

OMG that house is a mess Cat! And I'm so pleased your fish (or at least some of them) are ok. That would have been the final straw if the bloody firemen had killed off your fish throwing all that sh*te into your pond!!

Have you spoken to anyone from the RSPCA yet?


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

feorag said:


> OMG that house is a mess Cat! And I'm so pleased your fish (or at least some of them) are ok. That would have been the final straw if the bloody firemen had killed off your fish throwing all that sh*te into your pond!!
> 
> Have you spoken to anyone from the RSPCA yet?


nope, i rung up again but both numbers seem to be takin me thru to a call centre, when i say its urgent that i need to speak with them they just say theyll pass on the message!! :bash:


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## karma (Jul 12, 2007)

So so sorry to hear the bad news, cat/ditta thinking of you both.

Andy.


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## ishotthesherifswife (Jun 10, 2008)

they can do thid, but they have to get a search warrant first,


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> nope, i rung up again but both numbers seem to be takin me thru to a call centre, when i say its urgent that i need to speak with them they just say theyll pass on the message!! :bash:


That's the RSPCA for you! Call centres and you can never get the right people. YOu need to try and get hold of an inspector's contact number, but don't ask me how!!

You could of course tell the call centre that you are thinking of taking legal advice about their actions but you would prefer to speak to someone who was at your house first? To try and chivvy them on a bit?


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

This should clear the RSPCA question up.... 

Don't actually think you can argue too much about it

**removed link cos i didn't read enough of it to see the address was on it**



doesn't help about them mistaking the beardie for washing powder though...


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## Chelle230 (Apr 9, 2008)

poor beardie, thoughts are with you Cat and Ditta, hope you can get it all sorted out. damn RSPCA!


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> If you have read the RIP thread you will know we had a house fire today. We were out on a job at the time around 3 hours away from home so got a friend to come round to the house. When we got home she said the RSPCA had been there lookin at the animals, they left us a little assessment form with their thoughts on- all were fine apart from some didnt have access to water- which were some beardies that have never drank out of a bowl n get sprays, and a uro that gets water put in once a week as advised by the seller, and also "is the animal contained in the right environment?"- they said no........but yet questions further down the page ask if the animal is kept in the correct environment to express its normal behaviour, is protected from pain, injury, disease, suffering fear or distress- to which they say yes- which is refering to their housing. so how HTF can they be kept in the correct housing free from all those things but yet not being contained within a suitable environment? im assuming they are referrin to the amount of animals we have, but all are in vivs so it makes no difference to them how many are in one room n so i dont see why this is relevant? all other aspects were fine.
> 
> the thing is the RSPCA did this before we got home, without our permission n had gone before we got back...apparently its procedure when animals are involved with a house fire......some have told me thats complete crap n they had no right coming into the property like they did, does anyone know whats true? i think the police phoned them, as i said, they told my friend it was standard procedure, so can the police allow them access without our consent? We havent actually seen or spoken to a police officer or a fire man!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


I haven’t read the entire thread so please forgive me if I am going over old ground. Firstly the RSPCA is a charitable organisation and as such its employees have now powers above that of any other member of the general public. In other words they have no right to enter your property without your consent, unless under a Warred issued by a Magistrate which names them, such a Warrant would be issued to the police or Animal Welfare Inspector.

Under the circumstance that you have outlined here, i.e. a house fire at which the occupiers of the premises were not at home at the time of the fire and animals were found, I would suspect it is ‘standard procedure’ to call the RSPCA. Having said that I would like to see such a written procedure! I am aware the police have recently signed a Memorandum of Understanding with the RSPCA, however, as yet I have not seen a copy!

To me it is outrageous if the authorities, be it police or fire brigade allow a member of the general public unhindered access to private property to wander around willly-nilly to do as they see fit, absolutely astonishing. The obvious question that springs to mind is who take responsibility for this act? If it’s the police who invited the RSPCA to attend do the police accept responsibility for the action of the member of the public they invited to wander around someone else’s property!!!!!! 

In respect of the animal removed from its vivarium and places in an entirely unsuitable receptacle, I wonder how that sits with the Animal Welfare Act – “likely to cause unnecessary suffering”? Notwithstanding this you are perfectly entitled to demand an explanation from the RSPCA employee who did this. If they have left an Animal Assessment Form (bloody cheek) it will have the name and id number, I suggest you call them and ask for explanation. If you do not get any satisfaction, or the person does not call you back let me know and I will make sure you they do so.

Obviously in circumstances such as this it is difficult, if there is a fire and the occupier is not at home one would expect the authorities to show concern for any animal present at the property. Who else but the RSPCA would they call! Isn’t it sad that we, animal keepers, have such little faith in an organisation that allegedly promotes animal welfare, is that not the real tragedy!


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## weelad (Jul 25, 2006)

can i ask a little question .. how come iv only seen you turn up or say something when the rspca is involved :lol2: ..not that its a bad thing just wondering


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

weelad said:


> can i ask a little question .. how come iv only seen you turn up or say something when the rspca is involved :lol2: ..not that its a bad thing just wondering


I respond to a variety of topic, not just the RSPCA.


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## sarah1207 (Dec 17, 2007)

hi cat and ditta, was just wondering how you both are today,?


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## Catherine896 (Jul 27, 2007)

So sorry to read about this 

Hope you are both OK.


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## ditta (Sep 18, 2006)

hi all, thanks for youre kind words, we are still trying to come to terms with the devastation the fire has caused and still waiting on insurance companys sending out cleaning companies and loss adjusters, it doesnt feel like our home atm but all the animals seem to be coping well, kittens are black, they should be ginger:lol2:

i cleared all the rubbish from the pond and the fish seem ok, well the ones i can see through the murky water!!!

thanks again for youre support:notworthy::notworthy:


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

ditta said:


> hi all, thanks for youre kind words, we are still trying to come to terms with the devastation the fire has caused and still waiting on insurance companys sending out cleaning companies and loss adjusters, it doesnt feel like our home atm but all the animals seem to be coping well, kittens are black, they should be ginger:lol2:
> 
> i cleared all the rubbish from the pond and the fish seem ok, well the ones i can see through the murky water!!!
> 
> thanks again for youre support:notworthy::notworthy:


your fibbing...you took a bath in the pond, thats why its mucky water! :lol2::lol2:

thnx for the sms back...were in sheffield if you need any help, now or in the near future(for what use me and llama girl are)


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

cooljules said:


> your fibbing...you took a bath in the pond, thats why its mucky water! :lol2::lol2:
> 
> thnx for the sms back...were in sheffield if you need any help, now or in the near future(for what use me and llama girl are)


your phone call was more than enough, nearly had me cryin when i hung up! we will call on all the people who offered their help im sure, as we may have to move some of the animals out when they start to rebuild the upstairs part of the house! hope you dont mind rodents? :lol2:

ps, thanks for the chat chris x


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## pam b (Mar 3, 2005)

weelad said:


> can i ask a little question .. how come iv only seen you turn up or say something when the rspca is involved :lol2: ..not that its a bad thing just wondering


Perhaps because Jan told Chris Cat was after talking to him and he found this thread and replyed!!! :whistling2:


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## *mogwai* (Feb 18, 2008)

this is an awful thing to happen. i know exactly what you're going through, i had a massive house fire in 2005. the whole place was gutted, had to stay with family while the house was re-built.

don't what to say about the rspca, i'm not exactly a fan either. but seeing as you're in manchester, wouldn't have the officer involved be based at that place in salford? i can't remember the addy now but it wont be hard to find. if you get no luck over the phone just go down there and play hell.

and, i know yo don't know me but i'm not that far away from you & my mum lives in manchester so i'm in the area quite a bit so if you need any help looking after the animals while the house is put back together, the offer's there. 
like i said you don't know me & i'm sure you'll have plenty of offers but just in case you get stuck. x


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## The Fool (Aug 23, 2007)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


>


1 - Was he whiter than white?
2 - Glad to see the hot dogs survived!! Indestructible!!!!! Tinned food, is there no boundary it cannot cross?


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

teshu said:


> this is an awful thing to happen. i know exactly what you're going through, i had a massive house fire in 2005. the whole place was gutted, had to stay with family while the house was re-built.
> 
> don't what to say about the rspca, i'm not exactly a fan either. but seeing as you're in manchester, wouldn't have the officer involved be based at that place in salford? i can't remember the addy now but it wont be hard to find. if you get no luck over the phone just go down there and play hell.
> 
> ...


thanks teshu, means a lot n if we need you when the time comes to rebuildin we'll give you a shout, thanks xxxx



Goat said:


> 1 - Was he whiter than white?
> 2 - Glad to see the hot dogs survived!! Indestructible!!!!! Tinned food, is there no boundary it cannot cross?


they musta thought the beardie was called eddie i think :lol2:
trust you goat to put summet up like this, did make us chuckle so you've done a good job.
Lets see if the hotdogs survive the lean mean eatin machine they call my gob after! NOMNOMNOMNOMNOM!!


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## dandydi (Sep 11, 2006)

Well you know my thoughts on the rspca, but listen if you need any help just shout. After our house fire it was 3 months in total before it was all settled and replastered, painted, carpeted and ready to live in safely again. Sorry about the leo's its awful when something bad comes out of it. My daughters rat was killed in ours, and I know its devastating. Anyway giz a buzz if you need owt, we all need mates at a time like this. : victory:


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## *mogwai* (Feb 18, 2008)

dandydi said:


> Well you know my thoughts on the rspca, but listen if you need any help just shout. After our house fire it was 3 months in total before it was all settled and replastered, painted, carpeted and ready to live in safely again. Sorry about the leo's its awful when something bad comes out of it. My daughters rat was killed in ours, and I know its devastating. Anyway giz a buzz if you need owt, we all need mates at a time like this. : victory:


i was lucky with mine. all the animals survived, it's a miracle, but they did. it took 5 months before it was habitable. at the time i only had 3 pets so it wasn't too difficult to find foster homes for them, my african grey stayed wherever i stayed and my bunny went to my mums. my dog techincally belonged to me & my ex so he went to stay with ex, where he's been ever since *sob*


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

teshu said:


> i was lucky with mine. all the animals survived, it's a miracle, but they did. it took 5 months before it was habitable. at the time i only had 3 pets so it wasn't too difficult to find foster homes for them, my african grey stayed wherever i stayed and my bunny went to my mums. my dog techincally belonged to me & my ex so he went to stay with ex, where he's been ever since *sob*


 
5 months??? eeeeek! we have over 300 to house somehwre if we do need to shift them so it might be a little more difficult for us lol

thanks les/di we'll call you should we need you, we'll see what can come n live with you n ya spiders for a bit hehe


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## dandydi (Sep 11, 2006)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> 5 months??? eeeeek! we have over 300 to house somehwre if we do need to shift them so it might be a little more difficult for us lol
> 
> thanks les/di we'll call you should we need you, we'll see what can come n live with you n ya spiders for a bit hehe



No probs woman, we got a spare bedroom here so bring whatever you want : victory:


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

dandydi said:


> No probs woman, we got a spare bedroom here so bring whatever you want : victory:


you'll regret sayin that! :lol2:


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## dandydi (Sep 11, 2006)

:hmm: :lol2:


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

So sorry ((hugs))

Its bad enough having a fire let alone coming home to your house knowing someone has been in it and leaving notes for you about your animals.


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## blazingtortoise (Feb 7, 2008)

Terrible news about the fire and the losses. I can see why the police might contact the rspca after a fire where there are lots of animals - a relatively uncommon amount in this case. As for the access issue, did your friend let them in or were they already in the house. If your friend let them in it might be different than them going in uninvited (think vampires).

The beardie in the box is the real problem. Totally unsuitable. If, for example, someone else had put it in the box before the rspca arrived, they'd have recognised it as bad practise (hopefully) and surely it would have been mentioned on the assessment. New thought - unless thats what the 'unsuitable container' thing actually referred to. (sorry, its been a while since I read the beginning of the thread to remember exact terminology).

I hope you get answers to why it was in the lemon daz box. Doesn't sound like an emergency measure though as only one was in there and someone had bothered to put a few air holes in, not something you'd do if tere was a fire raging around you. Just doesn't make sense.

Good luck with getting everything sorted and back on track. It must be really awful.


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## weelad (Jul 25, 2006)

pam b said:


> Perhaps because Jan told Chris Cat was after talking to him and he found this thread and replyed!!! :whistling2:


:Na_Na_Na_Na: .. that could be it :whip:


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## tigger79 (Aug 22, 2006)

Sorry to hear about the fire, hope you get thing sorted soon,

just a thought, on the beardie - which no one else seems to have looked at as they wanna slag of the rspca (who wudnt lol) but there is a possibility that some one was trying to steal it and use the fire as an excuse, this person being either the rspca, fire or police officer - oh and it was placed on the cooker and they forgot to pick it up

chin up guys all will be back to normal soonest


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

tigger79 said:


> Sorry to hear about the fire, hope you get thing sorted soon,
> 
> just a thought, on the beardie - which no one else seems to have looked at as they wanna slag of the rspca (who wudnt lol) but there is a possibility that some one was trying to steal it and use the fire as an excuse, this person being either the rspca, fire or police officer - oh and it was placed on the cooker and they forgot to pick it up
> 
> chin up guys all will be back to normal soonest


 
yeah thats what dittas brother said, though i dunno why they picked him when there was a light citrus in the same viv as him :lol2:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

This did cross my mind when I was telling my husband about it last night, but like you said why him? And why put the tub on top of the cooker for everyone else to see? Surely if someone was gonna nick it, they wouldn't put it out where everyone else would see it?


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## Alexanders_mummy (Jul 20, 2008)

hi i am sorry to here of your troubles and losses i hope that you can take the RSPCA to task for what they have done if it were me i would be talking to a solicitor quick smart (bet then the inspctor would return your calls )


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## Bonkers! (May 27, 2007)

Well I only looked at the pic and read the bottom bit but that sounds typical of the RSPCA to me. They rant at pet owners to look after their animals properly yet because they're in the RSPCA that somehow gives them the right to do whatever they want with OUR animals and get away with it?! What they did to your Beardie was just discraceful! That one pic says a lot about the RSPCA doesn't it...


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## Tomm (Jan 4, 2008)

tigger79 said:


> Sorry to hear about the fire, hope you get thing sorted soon,
> 
> just a thought, on the beardie - which no one else seems to have looked at as they wanna slag of the rspca (who wudnt lol) but there is a possibility that some one was trying to steal it and use the fire as an excuse, this person being either the rspca, fire or police officer - oh and it was placed on the cooker and they forgot to pick it up
> 
> chin up guys all will be back to normal soonest


not you have said it...

i thought the exact same but didnt want to start accusing people who may have been inocent!


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## pam b (Mar 3, 2005)

Have you managed to get the RSPCA yet?
What have they said about the subject?
Going in to make sure no animals suffering from the fire i can accept, but doing an assesment sheet while there :censor:


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## *mogwai* (Feb 18, 2008)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> 5 months??? eeeeek! we have over 300 to house somehwre if we do need to shift them so it might be a little more difficult for us lol
> 
> thanks les/di we'll call you should we need you, we'll see what can come n live with you n ya spiders for a bit hehe


yep 5 months. the whole house was wrecked. we needed, new windows, a whole new kitchen and bathroom, new carpets & decorating throughout. some walls needed stripping back & re-plastering. so it took a while. 

i know exactly what you're going through so the offer of help will always be open.


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> yeah thats what dittas brother said, though i dunno why they picked him when there was a light citrus in the same viv as him :lol2:



ok at this minute (ok now back in cos of the rain) im building my shed (10x8) for my reps, but i dont need it until next year....but got mates building it with me, so in a couple of weeks it will be warm and weather proof for mammals.....sorry it wont be with leccy etc for reps, but it shold be ideal for rats etc, hope its a help trying to get up erected quick so we can help anyway we can...dont forget were in sheffield (the reet side of pennines!) :lol2:


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## dandydi (Sep 11, 2006)

teshu said:


> yep 5 months. the whole house was wrecked. we needed, new windows, a whole new kitchen and bathroom, new carpets & decorating throughout. some walls needed stripping back & re-plastering. so it took a while.
> 
> i know exactly what you're going through so the offer of help will always be open.


Aye was 3 for Toni's bedroom. Same as above all the plaster had to come off and floorboards ripped up,new windows as hers had melted being upvc so you have joiners, glaziers, plasterers, electricians, decorators, carpeters, so all takes time as it can't be done in a day.
Same here too with the offer.Must mention, can't help with the rodents as I'm allergic (sorry) but anthing scaled, spiney etc not a problem : victory:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I can mind some critters if need be just ask: victory:


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## ditta (Sep 18, 2006)

thanks everybody for your offers of critter-sitting....the insurance folk have been out now to inspect, my contents cover and my landladys buildings cover, both have strongly suggested we move out but we not going anywhere without our creatures, but we may have to ship a few out when repair work starts, so ......

we have to have new loft insulation, new ceilings upstairs, all the landing needs replastering and re decorating, the bathroom ceiling was wood cladded so needs replacing, new windows in bathroom and bedroom, the doors and door frames replaced upstairs, new bath panel and my £300 shower has to be replaced too. the whole house is to be redecorated due to water and smoke, also the laminate flooring in 2 bedrooms and landing and hallway due to fire and water damage.
the front door is to be replaced too.
there is also a skip on route to clear the garden of all our burnt clothes and the burnt doors and stuff , the insurance for my contents have been great they are sending out a cleaning company to help with the big clean up.

thanks guys for all your support through this we are totally gobsmacked by the amount of offers we have had for help, and no the rspca still havnt returned our many calls!!!!!:bash:


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## dandydi (Sep 11, 2006)

When you get your skip it will fill up overnight with fridges etc that were'nt yours to start with lol. Neighbours, don't u just love em :lol2:

Lots to be done so its going to take some time. 
We were supposed to move out but I said no way, I'll get back and everything will be nicked lol. The kids slept at a neighbours till the cleaning guys and been in and got rid of a lot of the smoke smell.
Don't blame you for staying put. : victory:


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## *mogwai* (Feb 18, 2008)

i had no choice but to move out. the house turned into a building site. every room needed something drastic doing to it. genuinely the worst time of my life. lost practically everything i owned.


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## dandydi (Sep 11, 2006)

Its gutting, and soooo frightening at the time. I couldn't believe the rate it spread in a few mins, and I'll never forget openeing that bedroom door and see-ing the flames licking there way up the walls. I sympathise with anyone thats gone through this.


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## DazedLewis (Aug 21, 2008)

Sorry to hear about the fire. And that beardy in that box made me angry, and I hardly ever get angry. They have to right whatsoever to take it out and put it in a box that isn't even clean! RSPCR (Royal Society for the Preservation of Cruelty to Reptiles) lol.


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## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

DazedLewis said:


> Sorry to hear about the fire. And that beardy in that box made me angry, and I hardly ever get angry. They have to right whatsoever to take it out and put it in a box that isn't even clean! RSPCR (Royal Society for the Preservation of Cruelty to Reptiles) lol.


Don't forget though, it isn't yet certain that the RSPCA put the beardie in the box.

It's possible a police or fire officer, as the first on the scene, might have removed it from the tank. If they saw it gaping, they might have thought it was due to smoke inhalation or similar, so took it out to await an assessment from the RSPCA to decide whether it needed a vet. Now, your typical fire officer or copper wouldn't know one beardie from another, so isolating it to ensure the correct one was looked at might have been logical to them at the time. I can imagine that dealing with a fire is quite a stressful situation and decisions are needed to made in a hurry - In this case, the outcome shows that it was the wrong decision, but they may have thought they were doing the right thing. They may have told the RSPCA that the beardie was in the box and the RSPCA forgot, or they might have forgotten to tell the RSPCA about it full stop. Who knows?

As well as chasing up the RSPCA, I would also try and contact the police and fire brigade, see if they can help shed any light on the matter.

I'm so sorry you've had to go through all this, I cannot imagine what you must be feeling right now  I hope it all gets cleared up soon, both the beardie situation and of course the house!


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

How exactly did the RSPCA gain access to your property if you were both out at the time?


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## ditta (Sep 18, 2006)

bradhollands999 said:


> How exactly did the RSPCA gain access to your property if you were both out at the time?


 the police and fire service let them in!!!!!


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

ditta said:


> the police and fire service let them in!!!!!


How lovely of them!! Did they have a warrant? I'm pretty sure even the police can't enter your property without your permission unless they have a warrant.


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## DazedLewis (Aug 21, 2008)

neep_neep said:


> Don't forget though, it isn't yet certain that the RSPCA put the beardie in the box.
> 
> It's possible a police or fire officer, as the first on the scene, might have removed it from the tank. If they saw it gaping, they might have thought it was due to smoke inhalation or similar, so took it out to await an assessment from the RSPCA to decide whether it needed a vet. Now, your typical fire officer or copper wouldn't know one beardie from another, so isolating it to ensure the correct one was looked at might have been logical to them at the time. I can imagine that dealing with a fire is quite a stressful situation and decisions are needed to made in a hurry - In this case, the outcome shows that it was the wrong decision, but they may have thought they were doing the right thing. They may have told the RSPCA that the beardie was in the box and the RSPCA forgot, or they might have forgotten to tell the RSPCA about it full stop. Who knows?
> 
> ...


Good point, sometimes one just gets a scenerio stuck in their head and can't think of other possibilities XD


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## Vicky12 (Apr 12, 2008)

Well I can safely say that the fire service wouldnt have given a second thought to the animals as I had our local fire station out to fit new smoke detectors.

During my discussion with them I said about the dogs who sleep in the kitchen and their answer was along the lines of "You get out first and forget the animals" 

Well you can imagine my thoughts :censor: Yeah like im gonna leave my dogs trapped in my kitchen and my torts....I dont think so. Not saying that I wouldnt get my family out first but I certainly wouldnt leave my animals in the house.

With regards to the RSPCA. I **think** that if the police and fire service thought the animals were in danger they can call them in, but please dont quote me on it as I dont know for sure.

My mum has a good contact in the RSPCA, if I remember I will try and ask her to make a few enquiries.

Hope you manage to get things sorted soon, its disgusting that no one has been out to see you from any of the services.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

bradhollands999 said:


> How lovely of them!! Did they have a warrant? I'm pretty sure even the police can't enter your property without your permission unless they have a warrant.


yeah but they hardly have time to seek a warrant when the house is burnin down do they? by the time theyve got it there would be no house TO enter! :lol2: so i can see how in this circumstance they wouldnt need one but as chris newman said, the police wouldnt let the neighbours get the dogs or cats out who are members of the public but yet they let the rspca inspectors in with no problem at all <<even though they are no one of any authority and again just members of the public>>


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> yeah but they hardly have time to seek a warrant when the house is burnin down do they? by the time theyve got it there would be no house TO enter! :lol2: so i can see how in this circumstance they wouldnt need one but as chris newman said, the police wouldnt let the neighbours get the dogs or cats out who are members of the public but yet they let the rspca inspectors in with no problem at all <<even though they are no one of any authority and again justmember of the public>>


Oh, i thought this all went on a couple of days after the fire. Did they rescue all your pets then?


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

ditta said:


> and no the rspca still havnt returned our many calls!!!!!:bash:


I think you should get back onto them and tell them you are sick of waiting for a return call. Tell them you have a problem with the way one of your pets was left after the emergency and are trying to find out what happened to it, so it is important that whoever came to your house contacts you to give you the information. 

Then tell them if no-one rings you back you will consult a solicitor and go to the press about how they treated the animal. Doesn't matter if _they_ didn't put it in the tub, _they_ were in the house and _they_ inspected your animals, so logically even if _they_ didn't _put_ it in the tub, they certainly didn't do anything about it being in such totally wrong conditions!


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## ogawa only (Jun 4, 2008)

the RSPCA dont have any right to enter any property , even if the police turn up at my house with a warrent , and bought the RSPCA with them , i cant refuse entry to the copper's , but i can them . like many people have said they have no right's what so ever . if they dont return your call , go to the local paper and make a show off it , let people know just what muppets they realy are .


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## littlespark (Dec 28, 2007)

yes well said. its a shame they've treated you this way and you are looking after animals properly. I have repeatedly reported a shop for the way they treat their animals and nothing has ever been done. I would say they have no idea what they are doing and like to interfere, it obviously shows they have no idea about how reptiles should be kept. End of. Go to the papers or a solicitor. they'll reply to you then.


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## The Roach Hut (Mar 29, 2008)

Hi hun. u know im a fireman!!!! well when there is a fire in the house and thee animals present it is our opertaing directions to contact RSPCA for those animals to arrange a check up with qualified vets if required. they had permission from the fire service to enter ur premises and thats how they can do it, cause once a fire happens in a house the fire authority has juristriction on what happens. until all life has either been saved or removed.... until this happens not even the police can decide what goes on



xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> If you have read the RIP thread you will know we had a house fire today. We were out on a job at the time around 3 hours away from home so got a friend to come round to the house. When we got home she said the RSPCA had been there lookin at the animals, they left us a little assessment form with their thoughts on- all were fine apart from some didnt have access to water- which were some beardies that have never drank out of a bowl n get sprays, and a uro that gets water put in once a week as advised by the seller, and also "is the animal contained in the right environment?"- they said no........but yet questions further down the page ask if the animal is kept in the correct environment to express its normal behaviour, is protected from pain, injury, disease, suffering fear or distress- to which they say yes- which is refering to their housing. so how HTF can they be kept in the correct housing free from all those things but yet not being contained within a suitable environment? im assuming they are referrin to the amount of animals we have, but all are in vivs so it makes no difference to them how many are in one room n so i dont see why this is relevant? all other aspects were fine.
> 
> the thing is the RSPCA did this before we got home, without our permission n had gone before we got back...apparently its procedure when animals are involved with a house fire......some have told me thats complete crap n they had no right coming into the property like they did, does anyone know whats true? i think the police phoned them, as i said, they told my friend it was standard procedure, so can the police allow them access without our consent? We havent actually seen or spoken to a police officer or a fire man!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


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