# A Demeaning Experience



## HUD (Mar 1, 2017)

Recently tracked down a perfect snake in a shop £150 miles away from me in Oxford. Engaged with the owner and after normal dialog about my experience (been breeding geckos since a boy, have an IJ Carpet, a boa, hoggies etc) he stated all his snakes must go into vivs, not racks. It's only a 10" king but fair enough I thought. He then asked that I send a picture of my intended setup. I sent a pic of my 14" x 8" x 10" plastic exo terra with belly heat and digital dimming stat IR bulb, hot end cool, water etc etc.

So assuming this was fine I drove to the shop. After showing me the snake the young chap said he has to get another lady to check my intended setup and agree to sell it. Ok I thought.. I had barely got through my first sentence about ambient temps etc when she interrupted me .."No, were not selling our snakes to you!" and started to walk back out the door. I'm starting to wonder if someone secretly stamped "Snake Killer" on my forehead.

"Hang on" I said, I've been in regular dialog with the owner and I thought everything was ok. I've just driven for 2 1/2 hours and now your telling me I can't buy this snake? "your not putting it in a viv" she said. I started explain it is a viv but was shouted me down again ..."ITS a plastic box!"

Anyway, so commenced some grovelling and squirming along with a promise on my word that I'd put it straight into a 3 foot viv at which point she grumbled ok and walked out. The young chap seemed as stunned as I was.
The real irony was they were keeping it in a plastic exo terra smaller than the one I intended putting it in.

So can anyone help me understand:
Is this sort of attitude common place? Is a 14" x 8" x 10" actually fine? The snake looks tiny in there and has tons of room. Of course when it's reaching any size it'll get upgraded and upgraded again.

I was really upset by it and it pretty much ruined the "new snake" feeling you get when you add something decent to your collection. If I hadn't wanted the snake so bad I would have used some choice words and walked.

Am I over sensitive or are some so called "exotic experts" that own shops actually just more ignorant, judgemental and opinionated than normal people? I get the due diligence on sale but what about treating humans like humans!

PS.
If you're the owner and you're reading this, here's your chance to defend your staff's actions and attitude.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

HUD said:


> Recently tracked down a perfect snake in a shop £150 miles away from me in Oxford. Engaged with the owner and after normal dialog about my experience (been breeding geckos since a boy, have an IJ Carpet, a boa, hoggies etc) he stated all his snakes must go into vivs, not racks. It's only a 10" king but fair enough I thought. He then asked that I send a picture of my intended setup. I sent a pic of my 14" x 8" x 10" plastic exo terra with belly heat and digital dimming stat IR bulb, hot end cool, water etc etc.
> 
> So assuming this was fine I drove to the shop. After showing me the snake the young chap said he has to get another lady to check my intended setup and agree to sell it. Ok I thought.. I had barely got through my first sentence about ambient temps etc when she interrupted me .."No, were not selling our snakes to you!" and started to walk back out the door. I'm starting to wonder if someone secretly stamped "Snake Killer" on my forehead.
> 
> ...


I would say no, that attitude is not typical, but OTT & overzealous.
Your set up is perfectly adequate.
The woman was being OTT & up herself, it's all very well putting the reptiles' needs first, but not to the point of refusing to sell to someone with a perfectly good set up.
It would have ruined the experience for me too.


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## dcap (Sep 3, 2011)

From the pet shops's perspective, they have the right to refuse sale to anyone they want for any reason they want. If their terms are that the animal must be in a viv then while a RUB may be perfectly good enough it is NOT a vivarium, it is an enclosure.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of RUBs, they have a lot of pros and a lot of fans (and plenty of haters too). Some environments can be easier to achieve in a RUB too. Some people view them as temporary enclosures though - and any breeder or shop is much more likely to have hatchlings in tubs and not vivariums. Certainly until the snake is big enough to not escape a viv. So I can see why the shop had it in a tub.

I'm in the process of switching back to vivs, but certain species might always stay in RUBs, I've had a few that didn't adapt well to vivs in the past. I want vivs for better viewing as much as anything else. But that is a long and big topic.

What I don't understand is why you gave them any money! If you don't like the service offered by this shop then go elsewhere. Why fund their apparently poor sales attitude? Walk away. 

There are a few really good reptile shops out there and once you find these gems they are worth going back to, and if necessary even paying a premium price. The relationship between the new owner and the shop is one of the most important in the hobby. You need to assess the value of their knowledge as much as they question you. Some pet shops are expert keepers, and some don't seem all that switched on.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

dcap said:


> From the pet shops's perspective, they have the right to refuse sale to anyone they want for any reason they want. If their terms are that the animal must be in a viv then while a RUB may be perfectly good enough it is NOT a vivarium, it is an enclosure.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of RUBs, they have a lot of pros and a lot of fans (and plenty of haters too). Some environments can be easier to achieve in a RUB too. Some people view them as temporary enclosures though - and any breeder or shop is much more likely to have hatchlings in tubs and not vivariums. Certainly until the snake is big enough to not escape a viv. So I can see why the shop had it in a tub.
> 
> ...


Maybe it wasn't that feasible for the OP to just walk away after travelling all that distance and having taken a liking to that particular snake. And doesn't a plastic Exo Terra count more as a small viv than a RUB or tub? Perfectly adequate for a hatchling king I would think.


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## dcap (Sep 3, 2011)

wilkinss77 said:


> Maybe it wasn't that feasible for the OP to just walk away after travelling all that distance and having taken a liking to that particular snake. And doesn't a plastic Exo Terra count more as a small viv than a RUB or tub? Perfectly adequate for a hatchling king I would think.


I'd view a vivarium as something solid, static, and with doors that can have a heating system installed in it.

Nowt wrong with the Exo Terra plastic tubs (if you can convince the surprizingly strong snake not to push the lid off) or a 'really useful box' - and certainly suitable for a hatchling kings ... that is what mine were in, and they're in bigger ones now that they are yearlings. But they aint no vivarium.

Bit like calling newspaper or kitchen paper 'substrate' ... sure they work if that is your thing (and all my hatchlings live on kitchen roll) but that aint substrate, its paper. 

I drove 170 miles (one way) to pick up a pretty rare pair of rainbow boas (not BRB and not ARB). Got there, the shop was filthy, some of the enclosures had animals in poor condition and what looked to me to be the wrong level of heating (too hot). Their hatchling display had one heating system but had a mix of species that couldn't possibly want the same heat levels. The fella brought out one of the snakes I'd reserved and it was in the dirtiest tub I've ever seen. I took a refund and walked away. 

Giving money to a p*** poor operation is supporting them to carry on doing it all wrong. 

The only saving grace is that I met a lovely couple en route and delivered them a hatchling (the cost of which paid my fuel). When I told them where I was headed next they didn't say much. PM'd them later and they were pleased that I walked out empty handed, they'd been there too. Before travelling I'd got loads of info from the guy in the shop and all looked and sounded above board. This is the reason I'd never courier an incoming animal.

EDIT - just re-read this, I'm not having a go at you, I just get proper grumpy when people give money to people who don't deserve it. The good shops need our support not the bad ones.


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## HUD (Mar 1, 2017)

*Hmmmmm ..???*

:whip: Hey, thanks for taking the time to respond for me. All feedback is good feedback. 

I'd say all snakes deserve good homes regardless of giving money to shops / people who don't deserve it. I didn't once mention a RUB, not to them or in my post.

Thanks also ref "they have the right".. I know a bit about retail law so that confirms my thoughts.. although you're entirely correct. I could for example string them up if they sighted a disability as reason for non sale (regardless of their T & Cs).

Anyway.. Dose raise questions.. when is a RUB and what is a viv? When is a massive useful box more than RUB. What constitutes a viv? Is a massive aquarium a viv? Is a small plastic box with additional ventilation, monitored and extra heating, water, substrate, 3 hides and a happy snake with lots or room a viv?
Just putting it out there..??


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## HUD (Mar 1, 2017)

like


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## HUD (Mar 1, 2017)

wilkinss77 said:


> I would say no, that attitude is not typical, but OTT & overzealous.
> Your set up is perfectly adequate.
> The woman was being OTT & up herself, it's all very well putting the reptiles' needs first, but not to the point of refusing to sell to someone with a perfectly good set up.
> It would have ruined the experience for me too.


Thanks Wilks. Much appreciated.


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

Hud; Make a note on ye calendar, and never go near that shop again at that time of the month :whistling2:


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## Debbie1962 (Dec 5, 2008)

el Snappo said:


> Hud; Make a note on ye calendar, and never go near that shop again at that time of the month :whistling2:


Tad sexist don't ya think:gasp:.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Debbie1962 said:


> Tad sexist don't ya think:gasp:.


It's banter, Debbie.


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## Debbie1962 (Dec 5, 2008)

Maybe but it is one thing that grates on me. Why can't women just be in a bad mood for no other reason than that.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

It would appear from the OP's comments that this is not a case of a 'bad shop' per se, but an otherwise good one but for the attitude of the owner/manager or whatever role the overzealous woman has. Especially as a male member of staff was apparently just as horrified at her attitude.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Debbie1962 said:


> Maybe but it is one thing that grates on me. Why can't women just be in a bad mood for no other reason than that.


It's only a joke - you're over-thinking.


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## Debbie1962 (Dec 5, 2008)

You would say that your a man!


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Had an almost identical experience to the OP's yesterday, but this time involving tropical fish- went to [email protected] at Southend airport to buy a pair of dwarf gouramis, & the guy serving gave me the Spanish Inquisition about how big my tank is, how many fish I have & what kind. He then entered all the info onto a tablet & concluded that my tank is overstocked & I can't have the fish. I told him I have over 40 years fishkeeping experience, & tanks of the same size can have different stocking limits depending on the set up, filtration, plants etc- but he said they can only go by their own set criteria, & by those I'm overstocked & therefore he wouldn't serve me. I told him I'd take my custom elsewhere, but that will be difficult as no other local aquarium shops sell dwarf gouramis as pairs- they all sell males only, & that's not an option.


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

wilkinss77 said:


> Had an almost identical experience to the OP's yesterday, but this time involving tropical fish- went to [email protected] at Southend airport to buy a pair of dwarf gouramis, & the guy serving gave me the Spanish Inquisition about how big my tank is, how many fish I have & what kind. He then entered all the info onto a tablet & concluded that my tank is overstocked & I can't have the fish. I told him I have over 40 years fishkeeping experience, & tanks of the same size can have different stocking limits depending on the set up, filtration, plants etc- but he said they can only go by their own set criteria, & by those I'm overstocked & therefore he wouldn't serve me. I told him I'd take my custom elsewhere, but that will be difficult as no other local aquarium shops sell dwarf gouramis as pairs- they all sell males only, & that's not an option.




That's the standard procedure for tropical fish sales through the whole of Pets at Home ..... You just have to ' override ' their system check 

You know from experience what works for you in the real world but you will also be able to predict what their 'criteria' is and navigate around or through them 
. 

You just have to go back in , make sure to get a different assistant next time and tell them what they WANT to hear ..... You could even get the same person and tell them you've bought a whole new set up and have a photo off the internet ready on your mobile 


So basically LIE ..... I do such a good job at fibbing sometimes that I even convince myself -lol .

I'm still wondering why there's a pet shop in an airport !?!?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Zincubus said:


> That's the standard procedure for tropical fish sales through the whole of Pets at Home ..... You just have to ' override ' their system check
> 
> You know from experience what works for you in the real world but you will also be able to predict what their 'criteria' is and navigate around or through them
> .
> ...


Guess that's what I'll have to do, or wait until the other Southend [email protected] branch have their dwarf gouramis ready for sale- theirs have been in quarantine for more than a month with an obstinate case of white spot.

The reason why there's a [email protected] at the airport is because there's a retail park there- not inside the airport itself but in front of it.


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## GT2540 (Jan 31, 2012)

To be fair, I often see threads that indicate that shops should take more responsibility for the animals they sell. It would seem that this is the case with the shops mentioned. 

Its just the criteria that they use seems to cause an issue. But fair play to them. You have to mark a line somewhere


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

GT2540 said:


> To be fair, I often see threads that indicate that shops should take more responsibility for the animals they sell. It would seem that this is the case with the shops mentioned.
> 
> Its just the criteria that they use seems to cause an issue. But fair play to them. You have to mark a line somewhere


It's when the line is too narrow & the criteria too rigid & strict that causes the issues- how about a little leeway to allow for different set ups, etc? I don't agree with the old saying 'the customer is always right', but a lot of these shops seem to think that the customer is always wrong, which isn't correct either.


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

GT2540 said:


> To be fair, I often see threads that indicate that shops should take more responsibility for the animals they sell. It would seem that this is the case with the shops mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> Its just the criteria that they use seems to cause an issue. But fair play to them. You have to mark a line somewhere




Well it used to annoy me when I went in and they started with all the questions but I'd agree it's not a bad thing in respects of people who are new to fish keeping who will have no idea what's size Angels or Oscars or Clown loach are likely to get and they won't have any idea about which fish are community or any of the other pitfalls ... tiger barbs nipping , Angels growing so big so quickly ( and eating all the testras ) RTB Sharks growing sizeable and having a bit of an attitude and so on ..


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Zincubus said:


> Well it used to annoy me when I went in and they started with all the questions but I'd agree it's not a bad thing in respects of people who are new to fish keeping who will have no idea what's size Angels or Oscars or Clown loach are likely to get and they won't have any idea about which fish are community or any of the other pitfalls ... tiger barbs nipping , Angels growing so big so quickly ( and eating all the testras ) RTB Sharks growing sizeable and having a bit of an attitude and so on ..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


No, but it's very patronising of them to apply their rigid criteria to experienced aquarists who know what they're doing.


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