# My New Chuckwalla! Poor Husbandry/Wild Caught



## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

Hi all, 

I would like to tell the story of my new female chuckwalla. 
After seeing Chuckwallas at my local Pets at Home store, which let me state, is actually one of the best PAH stores ive been to, i felt i had to seize the oppurtunity to get my hands on a female to join one of my hatchling males. 

I looked at the chuckwallas they had in store and they seemed healthy enough although i was convinced they were wild caught due to the unusally small size of them according to the age they were believed to be. 
i contacted Monkfield Nutrition who were adament that they were captive hatched and raised so seeing that Pets at Home were keeping them at an OK standard i asked them to put the female on hold for me. 

I checked the female over and sexed her myself. She was in good condition, not as good as my boys, but good enough to be saleable. 

This female was accidently sold to somebody else the same day i was going to collect her. of course i was not best pleased and PAH said they would get me another female in of similar age. I was then told they only had females 1year and upwards. so i said that would be fine as long as it is one of the younger females (being that females reach sexual maturity later i though this may have actually turned out for the better)

They then got a female in for me and i was told again, she is Captive hatched and raised and around 11 months old. 

i was very fustraited with MN having not been able to tell me when she was roughly hatched - i mean isnt record keeping a basic part of husbandry???

anyway i asked to have a look at her in her vivarium so i could see how she moved and behaved etc. they told me i was not allowed in the quarentine room where she was being kept. 

they only allowed me to view her in somebody elses hands and explained she was not very tame due to not being handled much at MN. 

It was not easy to examine her on the shop floor but had a look to make sure she was female, she gaped her mouth in fear so got to look in her mouth which seemed healthy enough. 

PAH explained she had been eating very well during the couple of days she had been there and their herp vet had seen her and said she was healthy etc and that she actually is very tubby! 

when seeing her i did tell them she looked a little underweight, they clearly did not know what a yearling chuckwalla is supposed to look like. 

anyway i took her home on the premise that i could return her if i had any concerns. 

I got her home and took a couple of pictures of her before putting her in her quarentine viv. 

she had white gunk in her eye, is seriously underweight, has light rusty brown stools indicating parasites/protozoans and this morning i noticed a cluster of circles of what looks to be a fungi skin infection. 

i called pets at home and contacted Monkfield telling them just how crap they are and how disgusted i am with their husbandry and lack of knowledge about the reptiles they are selling! 

they said i could take her back and have her shipped back to MN but now she is here i cant stand the idea of putting her through all of that and know i will take much better care of her. 

She has eaten very little but does seem to have taken in some water which i breifly put out for her. 
she was very stressed and behaved as if she was not accustomed to living in a vivarium at all nor human interaction. 

her viv is now blacked out and she has produced some clear fluid in her urates, finally! and a little more faecal matter which i am collecting for screening. 

she seems to have settled considerably since i bought her home on wednesday and i hope that her appetite will pick up soon. if she eats well tomorrow i will take her to the herp vet monday for a thorough check up.

here are the pictures i took before placing her in the viv and just after putting her in. 
i am not handling her at all until the vet visit and clean viv, replace food early in the morning before she comes out of her hide. 





































I will of course keep the forum up to date on her progress and will be billing the vet fees to Pets at Home and sending full screening results to Monkfield Nutrition. 

Before anyone comments, i realise it was silly of me to buy her having not had a chance to view her normal behaviour in a vivarium at PAH but they really did not give me much of an option and after she was ordered in specifically for me i felt obliged to take her and do not want her to suffer any more than she has to so she is much better off with me. 

May my mistakes we a warning to others and hopefully the love and dedication i show this animal will see her through to being a beautiful fat, healthy and contented chuckwalla. 

Fingers crossed! 


These pictures do not really show how underweight she is, this is seen fully when she is standing on her hind legs up against the viv wall, it makes me feel very uneasy looking at those pictures/her so will only post them once she has put on weight and is looking better for a comparison. Oh and her name is Lea!


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## Sam84 (Jul 13, 2011)

Good Luck - i will keeping my finers crossed for her!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

that chuck isn't so bad... it's not very thin either...

just needs some time in a good set up, diet and temps...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

oh and they have those wrinkles for a reason... they inflate in rocks...


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

she doesnt look that bad in those pics but if you see her standing on her back legs it looks terrible. 

for a wild chuck she looks ok but not for a captive raised, my captive bred boys are really fat in comparison to her. when you look closely at her you can see her internal body fat reserves are nearly depleted. that shouldnt happen in a captive raised. hence why i think shes WC or neglected.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

healthy wild chucks...

it just needs some good care...


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

thank habu, i know youve been around a lot of wild chucks, but i know what a healthy chuck is supposed to look like and she has folds on the backs of her legs which are really loose, which is there for no other purpose but to show she is underweight. 

she also has fungus on her and parasites etc, not good! 

hopefully now shes in my care she will be sorted out soon enough and ill just have to go super slow with the interaction. i dont mind if she never fully tames up to be honest. i have the boys if i want to play with them. i just would like her to become accustomed to me so i dont stress her out.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

lovemysnakes said:


> thank habu, i know youve been around a lot of wild chucks, but i know what a healthy chuck is supposed to look like and she has folds on the backs of her legs which are really loose, which is there for no other purpose but to show she is underweight.
> 
> she also has fungus on her and parasites etc, not good!
> 
> hopefully now shes in my care she will be sorted out soon enough and ill just have to go super slow with the interaction. i dont mind if she never fully tames up to be honest. i have the boys if i want to play with them. i just would like her to become accustomed to me so i dont stress her out.


all treatable and fixable... chucks are tough beasts...


that's what's great about them...:no1:


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

she looks ok for a wild caught chuck but not for a captive raised. my boys are right little fatties but they still have their folds and wrinkles. 

a captive raised chuck should have plenty of food every day to eat from and adequate lighting etc so there is no reason for her to be underweight, except unless she has been neglected or is WC.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

really? ive heard loads about wild caughts not adapting to captivity and dying.....
i know they can go on for ages being unwell but they seem to stress really easy!


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

The chuck looks fine to me hun , unfortunately even if she was wild caught places like [email protected] would never admit it.

I can tell you a few stories about [email protected] and how they have one of my own caresheets on there website without crediting me.

I also know a few others who this has happned too speaking on the forums. While [email protected] is considerd to be a good shop, I just don't like them and will never give them the satisfaction of putting my money into them, for reptiles I would much rather give my money to the smaller busineses as you are garunteed specialist knowledge where they have worked for years and had expirience unlike the so called [email protected] experts who do 1-2 days reptile training.:roll:

She does look fine to me hun, maybey just needs beefing up a little  and I am sure you will do fine, I am pleased she has settled down after our previouse discussion and just do what I advised you to do in our previouse conversations.

It is going to be worth getting her checked over either way, even captive bred can have some underlaying issues so I deffo say go ahead with that.

As for that shop! they can sod off as far as I am concerned. I sent them a letter a few years ago outlaying my concerns for there leopard geckos, This was when the ones at my end were just starting to sell reptiles. I asked repkid if I could use his caresheet to send in to them (I did include in the letter that it did infact belong to this forum) and credited him with it in my letter, that care sheet was placed onto there website some months after without the correct persons name next to it. I contacted there main headquaters and they did eventually remove it mainly because I claimed it was not mine and not mine to give them. Since then I have made vairouse complaints about the one particularly in Washington Tyne and Wear and again they have plagarised mine and other peoples care sheets.

If you look at vairiouse forums and care sheets I think you will find that pets @ homes sheets are worded exacly word for word, and you can check the dates on when they were placed up.

I will eventually get around to giving a few examples of this.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

i know ive read a few and wasnt pleased with how easy they prtrayed reptiles to keep. 
they bang on about rabbits being hard work but seem to think reptiles are easy peasy! 
btw i have rabbits and yes they are hard work!!! lol. 

the fungus on her is my main concern and the not eating. she has prob only eaten four strands of food if that in 3 and a half days. 

my boys didnt have much of an appetite when i first got them home but after a day or so were digging in. 

its prob the parasites causing her problems. her gut flora is prob low too, i offered some pro bio natural yogurt mixed in with a bit of her greens but i dont believe she touched it. 

im pretty sure she took a quick bath though. i didnt see any mites on her so hopefully there isnt any but this will be easier to find out under the vets microscope. 

i would have taken her to the vets sooner but i want to wait until shes eaten something because it will no doubt stress her out more and may cause her to want/be able to eat even less. 

i will never be buying for a chain store again or anywhere that gets their animals from Monkfield Nutrition because really it is their fault that she was underweight with parasites in the first place. 

the guy that deals with the chucks even admitted he didnt know masses about them! 

as i said before, a chuck of her age, if captive raised, should not be a skinny as that. youll see what i mean when ive got her healthy!


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Yeah it sounds like your doing everything I would be trying to be honest, maybey try grating or mashing and boiling some butternut squash and other similar foods up and feed from the spoon (sounds weird) but once it touches there noses they may begin to lick it, at least this will give you satisfaction in knowing she is keeping her stregnth up, deffo needs seeing to by a vet eventually though, I can only say Habu probibly knows more about this than me so that is all I can really say on the matter.

The reason I SAY to boil it (although not as nutritional) is it is an easy texture on the mouth (sometimes ill animals cannot be botherd to eat hard foods) This is tried and tested by myself and does work, and anything is really better than nothing.

It does not even need to be a spoon it just encourages them to eat it pressed onto their lips: victory: if they don't want it, they will turn away from it. At that point just leave them alone to deal with it then.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

i will do that and have been making the food a variety of sizes for her to choose from as she may not be accustomed to finely cut / mashed/ grated foods. but i will defo give the boiling and mashing a go but theres no way she will let me near her mouth! even with a spoon. 
she caught me cleaning out the old food and putting new stuff in this morning and just watched where as before she would have dived back into cover the min she saw me opening the viv door. 

ill do these things before i go to the vets and get all the stress over and done with in one day then leave her alone for a good few weeks (hopefully) 

if you saw her youd see how unhappy she behaves. nothing like my boys at all. and you can see her pelvis when she leans to one side  

shes not closing her eyes so much now which seems to be a sign of her getting used to her new environment but i wont be happy until shes eaten a good amount of food. 

she only eat one dandelion flower!!!!! i put a load in there and she only eat one!!!!! 
that is shocking! my boys would happily wolf down a hundred! ive never seen a chuck or uro that doesnt run towards a dandelion flower lol.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

lovemysnakes said:


> i will do that and have been making the food a variety of sizes for her to choose from as she may not be accustomed to finely cut / mashed/ grated foods. but i will defo give the boiling and mashing a go but theres no way she will let me near her mouth! even with a spoon.
> she caught me cleaning out the old food and putting new stuff in this morning and just watched where as before she would have dived back into cover the min she saw me opening the viv door.
> 
> ill do these things before i go to the vets and get all the stress over and done with in one day then leave her alone for a good few weeks (hopefully)
> ...


Get another pair of hands to support you, or try the simple towel method  and if you don't want to place more stress onto her before the vets you could just leave her alone and offer the usual foods  if she has eaten something for now I suppose it will be fine, its more just me being selfish and wanting satisfaction, its up to you if you think it will cause more harm than good.: victory:


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

Wow I thought [email protected] only did leo's and beardies


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

rum&coke said:


> Wow I thought [email protected] only did leo's and beardies


Nope, I beleive there is or has been discussions on them starting to sell snakes.


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Nope, I beleive there is or has been discussions on them starting to sell snakes.


Oh , well fair play to them it would be nice if reptiles become more acceptable to the mainstream and there is no shop more mainstream than [email protected] , I know some of them have a really bad reputation but they are not all bad and anything that helps make the general public see reptiles in a positive light has to be good.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

rum&coke said:


> Oh , well fair play to them it would be nice if reptiles become more acceptable to the mainstream and there is no shop more mainstream than [email protected] , I know some of them have a really bad reputation but they are not all bad and anything that helps make the general public see reptiles in a positive light has to be good.


 
I don't like them personally for what they have done to me in the past.
But I totally hear what you are saying, they are a big and powerful company and I suppose if anything was to happen to the hobby in general they would make a great ally to us keepers.

But what I speak of is my "personal preference" [email protected] is for the minute not the best place on reptiles, but it is not the worst either, I just get annoyed with certain things but at least the animals are looked after and fed properly and cleaned, (at least they have been on the few occasions I have been there) so I suppose that is more important than a bloody caresheet being palgarised. But still I have principles lol.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

lol they do sell snakes! 
and spiders and skinks! they sell everything! :S


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

even monitors! i think they have tegus aswell! and frogs and snails and puppy dog tails lol


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

ok prob not puppy dog tails but they do sell pretty much every rep and amphib you can think of. all in my local store. 
they must have some pretty clever and experienced people working full time to cater for the needs of all of those different animals.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

They sell bits and bobs and thingy majigs from curtain hooks to judges wigs:whistling2:


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## RedDragonPixie (Apr 12, 2011)

^^ lolz @ the above ^^
She looks a sweet lil girl, she's gonna be so happy when she stops being scared. 
Try not to worry yourself too much, it's so easy to do when you've a new baby in the house! 
Vet will be able to sort out her ills and then you give her some space and when she's settled she'll prolly be eating you out of house & home!


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

RedDragonPixie said:


> ^^ lolz @ the above ^^
> She looks a sweet lil girl, she's gonna be so happy when she stops being scared.
> Try not to worry yourself too much, it's so easy to do when you've a new baby in the house!
> Vet will be able to sort out her ills and then you give her some space and when she's settled she'll prolly be eating you out of house & home!


Thanks RDP. It is pretty scary having an animal ill and knowing there's nothing more you can do to make them better. 

Thanks for you advice Sal. I will most certainly offer mashed cooked squash but I'm thinking I may try steaming it? To retain more of the nutritional value. 
I won't be force feeding her because I don't feel it would beneficial at this time due to the high stress she is already exhibiting but when/if she starts to become less active I will most certainly have to go down this route. 
I sooooo badly want her to start stuffing her face! Urgh! 

Ill feel much better once I've taken her to the vets. My herp vets seems to know his stuff. And he's really thorough. When I took my boys in he gave them a full check under the microscope too and that was just for a general appointment, basically to introduce them to him. 
I thought it was so cute when he was listening to their tiny heart beat because they were so small lol.


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## Krista (Jul 18, 2009)

Hi,

She is so sweet looking :flrt: good luck with her at the Vets . A bit of love and good care goes a long way.

Enjoy her....

Jingle Bells


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## imitebmike (Jun 22, 2008)

silver lining friend :O YOU GOTS A FEMALE!  she'll get well soon enough  so ima say Good luck with the program 

[email protected] already branching into the more uncommon reps now :O


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Hello Ellie, you needlessly worrying again! That is a healthily little chuck and you have the best of care and husbandry kits going.

I can absolutely confirm that Monkfield did breed this animal I have personally been into the farm and seen them.

Wildcaught animals are still the mainstay of our trade, and until captive bred numbers increase just like pete at Monkfield is doing they always will be. Good harvesting techniques and sustainable cites regulated numbers coupled with a quick plane journey has made the wild harvest safer and more sustainable than ever. We rely on these animals to build a bank to captive farm. Let's please not let what happened to our wonderful bird trade happen to reptiles......banned europe wide over night, no birds other than zebra finches or bengalese really and any 50 cents African finch now fetching £100, £300 a pair. If a ban came in today we would be left with leos and bds, in big numbers. Boring hey......

Anyway don't panic it looks fine to me.

John. 




lovemysnakes said:


> Thanks RDP. It is pretty scary having an animal ill and knowing there's nothing more you can do to make them better.
> 
> Thanks for you advice Sal. I will most certainly offer mashed cooked squash but I'm thinking I may try steaming it? To retain more of the nutritional value.
> I won't be force feeding her because I don't feel it would beneficial at this time due to the high stress she is already exhibiting but when/if she starts to become less active I will most certainly have to go down this route.
> ...


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

lol i know she will be well soon enough. once the parasites/protozoans are gone and tha fungus on her lower back is seen to. 
Monkfield didnt actually breed the chucks, they just incubated the eggs of wild caught gravid female. 
the guy was holding on to them because he was planning to breed them but he said hed decided against it as hes so busy with his other breeding groups. 

i cant recall his name but he sounded like a manc and he said hes the guy that deals specifically with the chucks and incubating etc. 

shes looking better again today and seems to have eaten a little more because she looks a bit more full in the belly and has produced a little more waste. 

good stuff because i will need to get her f-screen done asap. 

theres no way that she could have got that fiungus from anything ive done and she was only at Pets at Home breifly so i dont blame them for her poor condition either. 

i think i should post some pictures of her standing on her hind legs because then you really can see she is thin. but i will fatten her up. 

i guess i just believe that animals should be sold in top condition because they are without doubt going to be stressed by moving. 

ive got all the best equitment on the market for all of my animals and am fortunate enough to be able to spend a great deal of time making observations and keeping comprehensive records. 

i do worry a lot but i dont think thats a bad thing when it comes to animal care, its better to be caucious and proactive to avoid ill health. 

the fact that i am so attentive to the welfare of my animals can only show that i do have very high standards for their keeping and i do expect everyone to have the highest of standards. the difference between standard care and exceptional care does not take a lot of effort or money in my opinion, just time. 

why would anything i say have an affect on the herp trade in this country? 
i support limited wild captures for the benefit of the gene pool in captive species however i do not support mass collection. 
with chucks, mass collection can only take place in nevada without a licence, hence why most of the chucks in Europe are Nevada chucks. 

i know many peopl over in america who have licences to collect 2-4 wild chucks and they do this very ethically in order to add to the breeding programs. 

unfortunatley there are people that do things unethically and it is those people that are letting all exotic animal keepers down. 

i am simply trying to highlight the importance of good husbandry.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

im not going to continue defending myself as to why i know she is not in good condition. i have two other chuckwallas as a comparison, i am in communication with the best and most experienced chuckwalla keepers in the world, i have done hundreds of hours of research and have a herp vet that specialised in US reptiles and lived in the mojave desert for many years studying the wild life. 

my male chuckwallas are in great health and come from a brilliant private breeder who made sure they were in top condition before letting them go. 
consequently they adapted very quickly to their new home and thrive in my care. 

i look forward to posting pictures and info on Lea when i have got her to the condition she deserves to be in.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

I look forward to seeing the pics,



lovemysnakes said:


> im not going to continue defending myself as to why i know she is not in good condition. i have two other chuckwallas as a comparison, i am in communication with the best and most experienced chuckwalla keepers in the world, i have done hundreds of hours of research and have a herp vet that specialised in US reptiles and lived in the mojave desert for many years studying the wild life.
> 
> my male chuckwallas are in great health and come from a brilliant private breeder who made sure they were in top condition before letting them go.
> consequently they adapted very quickly to their new home and thrive in my care.
> ...


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

sorry john, i kind of vented that towards you. i do apolygise. 

i have had some really unhelpful emails from MN and im just really dissapointed that her heath issues were not noticed by the Pets at Home vet. 

i am very passionate about animals and feel a very close connection to them so seeing them suffering is painful for me.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Passion is GOOD,,,, worry is bad and you know that's true. I have had a hand in many hundreds of enclosures all over the world and i've rarely met someone who views husbandry so professonally. The more people like you the better.

As I said I've been to petes facility and hatchery at Monkfield and it is immaculate!! Easily the best large scale breeding facility I've ever been in. The whole team are very professional. 

Let me know what the vet says.

John.




lovemysnakes said:


> sorry john, i kind of vented that towards you. i do apolygise.
> 
> i have had some really unhelpful emails from MN and im just really dissapointed that her heath issues were not noticed by the Pets at Home vet.
> 
> i am very passionate about animals and feel a very close connection to them so seeing them suffering is painful for me.


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## 66921 (Feb 12, 2011)

Glad to see you finally have a girl hun but I can't believe the welfare of this chuck before you got her .

Definitely want to be sending those bills to [email protected], but to like head office or something, this is really shocking!

I hope your expertise will help this young lady realise her full potential, I know she couldn't be in better hands .

Keep us updated!


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## imitebmike (Jun 22, 2008)

Thats good  shame that she wasent you know, on tip top form...but, patience...and vet bills bring sweet rewards  CHIN UP MISTER, CHIN UP


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

thanks guys. your kind words mean lots! 

its good to know that on a whole MN are good keepers. i think they may have just over shot themselves a little with getting chucks because there really isnt that much info out there on them and they are very different to keeping omnivore species which is what MN is well known for, their leos and beardies. 
ive always heard good things about them in the past hence why i bought from PAH knowing they came from MN but the issues with Lea can not be denied and someone is at fault. 
but that really isnt my focus, the most important thing is that i get her well quickly. 

and great news, she eat a fair bit today  that gorgeous girl made my day. 
hour by hour she seems to settle into her new home better so now its just off to the vets to get her all treated and from then on its princess Lea who i will do my upmost to keep the picture of health and hopefully one day fertility but i wont tell her that yet! 

i have to do my bit for the captive population in the future, after all it wouldnt fair to keep such stunning creatures all to myself....or would it? lol. 

ill update the forum once shes had her trip to the vets and is settling back in her viv. 

once again, thank you everyone that has made a post

John, it means a lot to be praised by you in this way, my aim is always to learn more and improve my husbandry skills. i have a great deal yet to learn and will cherish every moment of it, even these difficult times - even though i would much rather it avoided, i am learning from it.


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## ruthyg (Oct 15, 2010)

Arcadiajohn said:


> Passion is GOOD,,,, worry is bad and you know that's true. I have had a hand in many hundreds of enclosures all over the world and *i've rarely met someone who views husbandry so professonally. The more people like you the better.*
> 
> John.


Aww, bless


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

chucks always amazed me... the amount of heat that they enjoy...


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

i know its shocking isnt it! 
my boys sometimes walk around crouched with their bellies on the hot slate i use as a basking stone moving to the hottest spots. i do worry when i feel the slate and it is very very very warm. 
a couple of times they have climed on my hand and run up to the back of my neck and they are sooo hot. i thought they were coming out to cool down but no, they go straight back to the bask. god knows why they like to be so hot, around 100f body temp. 
i always like to know what temp they are with the IR Temp gun and they are always really warm. i dont mind, in the winter i will sit next to their vivs to keep warm haha. 

since theyve had the halogens they seem to really enjoy their basking time. im still not allowing it to go over 125f though. its usually 120ish. 
they also really like CHE's but are not so keen on the MVBs even though they do get up 110f. not sure why they dont like them so much. they only really seem to use them in the morning and then the halogens for the rest of the day. i often turn off the mvbs for many hours at a time and they dont seem at all bothered.


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## sihunt (Jun 21, 2010)

Hi. My Uncle Uro has a 130F spot and he uses it!!! He has one of the fattest bellys around too!!!


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

the higher temps promote faster digestion, however, this fast digestion is not always the best kind. its fast and does not get all of the nutritional value from the plant matter and this is why reptiles exposed to higher temps will eat more, to get the nutritional value required for growth and organ development etc. 
then there is of course the opposite, where temperatures are much lower, food is digested slowly, however this does not mean that all the nutritional value is taken in either. 
what we want to aim for our reptiles to have is an average body temperature where the food is digested at a resonable rate so maxium nutritional value can be absorbed. this is usually towards the higher end of the maximum heat temperature. 

its useful to use a temp gun to check the temp of your reptile but they will instincively, if permitted using a good gradient, choose their preffered body temp. 

in chuckwallas and uros it seems they would rather be very hot and digest food quickly and in large quantities rather than a little cooler and slower with less plant matter but at at a higher aborbstion. 

i imagine they have evolved to be this way due to their environment. in the lush season there is plenty of plant matter containing slightly more nutritional value than in other seasons so they will get really hot and go through loads of it. i also imagine that during the different seasons their preffered body temperature differs depending on the food sources avaliable at any given time. 

and then of course when there is little to no food avaliable they will become inactive and have very low body temps due to this and the climate. 

its amazing how they adapt so perfectly to their environment. 

we however do not adapt to the environment so adapt the environment to suit us. 

we all know which method has stood the test of time! lol


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

oh and GREAT NEWS
I saw Lea eating today for the first time. i know she has eaten but this is the only time i have actually watched her eat and she took about 5 good mouthfuls before catching me watch her and trotted over towards the peep gap in the blacked out viv, got on her hind legs and watched me. 

since she seems to have gotten so brave i thought it couldnt hurt if i tried to hand feed her and she again allowed me to bring food up to her mouth and with caution, took a few licks of it before deciding to ignore me. lol 

im pretty impressed with the progress! 
lets hope Princess Lea is so bold with the improvement of her overall condition! 

vets is in a few hours so we will see how much she likes me after that! not much im thinking! lol


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i've seen chucks out in the mojave out sunning on rocks in the heat of the day... over 100f in the shade... laying in the sun on rocks so hot you couldn't touch them but for a few seconds...












heat that would kill most things... and they love it...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Lizards of Nevada's Valley of Fire


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## kirky1980 (Apr 4, 2010)

HABU said:


> Lizards of Nevada's Valley of Fire


great link there habu. a real good read:2thumb:


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

i know they are amazing little things. they def suit their environment.
my boys will happily nod off in the late afternoon under a peice of slate where the temp is 100f. i worry that they will over heat but nope..they spring back out and go onto the bask site for a little bit lol. 

i rarely see them in the cool end of the viv but they use it occassionally. i think probably more for the adventure of things to climb and space to run and jump than for cooling down lol. 

though the other day loki did chill in the cool end for a little while which i thought was odd but he returned to the warm end and i havnt noticed any other changes in him. maybe he fancied a cool day lol. 

the weirdest thing to me is that they genuinely do seem more active during the week and less on the weekends lol


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

vet results:
almost complete depletion of fat stores and lack of fat and muscle tone in tail. lack of muscle tone in legs also. 
supplementation to be added daily to food as currently done. 
serverely dehydrated, back up of faecal matter and possible kidney damage due to dehydration so overall health must be carefully observed. bathing to be done daily for next few days if it is not found to cause too much stress. 
water to be made avaliable at all times and viv to be well ventilated to avoid high humidity, which is already in place. 
unlikely to have fungal infection as skin is not raised but to continue observations as may be very early signs. 
gunk coming from eyes due to dehydration and possible irritation of previously used substrates and dust particals from transportation. 
high stress due to lack of human interaction. 
faecal matter is already looking more of a healthy colour indicating poor previous diet, matter to continue being collected (pooled) for screening. 
Leas appetite was good today so shes on the up, just have to be hopeful that any damage done to kidneys can heal fully in time. 

all of her health issues are due to previous poor husbandry and hopefully have been dealt with soon enough that it will not cause her any long term problems. 

i hope she will be fat and healthy in no time


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## Industrial (Jan 16, 2010)

Glad to hear she's perking up a bit, hope there's no lasting ill affects from her recent past, my BD was a rescue, a year old male who hadn't been fed in two months, well you can guess at the state of the poor fella, anyway 19 months on he's fine, like yourself I did have concerns his previous treatment may have lasting affects but alas all seems well.....hope yours makes a full recovery.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

*thanks and hopefully*



Industrial said:


> Glad to hear she's perking up a bit, hope there's no lasting ill affects from her recent past, my BD was a rescue, a year old male who hadn't been fed in two months, well you can guess at the state of the poor fella, anyway 19 months on he's fine, like yourself I did have concerns his previous treatment may have lasting affects but alas all seems well.....hope yours makes a full recovery.


Thanks Industrial. I of course am worried because she is in the most important years of her life, pre maturity and when she is doing the most growing and developing. I am hopeful that she can make a recovery and live a long and healthy life but I am most concerned that she will not live as many years as say my two other captive breds which are still hatchlings. Its like any animal a good start usually results in the animal living to a ripe old age. 
The reason I love reptiles so much is their ability to live so long. They are my companions and I want to keep them that way for as long as possible. This longing for life long pet companionship has actually made me think that I'm at a good age to get a tortoise because I will be able to care for it from hatchling to a grand age of 50. That's an estimate at a life span for a tort but I know it differs massively and would only get something like a box turtle that can live hundreds of years if it was to be kept in the family over generations lol. 

She didn't like me very much today, she hates going in the rub and didn't enjoy her bath much at all and went straight into hiding once back in her viv but the hide is under the bask spot so I'm sure she warmed up nicely before lights out. 

I just hope she continues to eat tomorrow after the stress of today and if she eats well I will bath her again in the afternoon. TBH I think I was more stressed than she was by the vets and bathing lol. I get very emotionally attached and start to think of them as having the social and cognitive abilities of a human being which I know they don't so i just torture myself lol. 

I'm hopeful she will also forgive and forget and once she's in the all clear we can start building a trusting bond where she sees me as a source of pleasure. 

I think this goes to show that just because an animal may look ok on the surface of things, one really can't make a judgement well unless they have a strong understanding of the animal and its biology.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

chucks fatten up fast if the eat well... they have a very conservative metabolism...

they bounce back well...


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

*Bounce back*



HABU said:


> chucks fatten up fast if the eat well... they have a very conservative metabolism...
> 
> they bounce back well...


That's really good to know that's Habu. Its just improving her appetite which I'm sure with the aid of herbs like rosemary and coriander will be soon. 

I've given her natural pro biotic yogurt which she's had a couple of licks at and even that should help her gut flora levels increase and the butternut squash should help her gut bacterial levels for the better. 

I've decided that I am going to supply water to all of my chucks at all times for now. The boys because they are so young and Lea because of her poor condition. 
I know they get fluid from their diet but their vivs are very well ventilated and it does not bring up the humidity much at all, a couple of percent and the vet assured me that this will have no ill affects whatsoever on the chucks because the air exchange in my vivariums are very good. 

I designed them specifically for the chucks so its worked out really well. 

I know you lived out in the mojave habu but what experience have you had will poorly chucks? Have you ever observed recovery? I ask because it would be useful to know more on how the behaviour is affected. 

After the first couple of days she seems to be very active to me. This has been stress active not play active. She now has calmed down though is still very active. 
I think my boys tend to nap more often because they wear themselves out playing lol and they go to bed later where she will be in her sleeping spot before lights out. 

Also would be great to know if you have witnessed any recovery to see if most recover gradually or in leaps and bounds?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Pm'd you Ems: victory:



> serverely dehydrated, back up of faecal matter and possible kidney damage due to dehydration so overall health must be carefully observed. bathing to be done daily for next few days if it is not found to cause too much stress.


Also to the "so called" herpetologist who tried to tell me that my vet was wrong and implied I was wrong to state such things, not long back about a vet advising this HERE is another example.

If reptiles did not benefit from being bathed from drinking at both ends why on earth would this even be proposed by "real" qualified people who have researched extensively for years, more to the point in the last debate no documentation was put forward to back up these claims, all I will say is from my past expirience (not nessacerily with chucks) is that bathing does help and I will continue to advise people with dehydrated animals to do this for that very reason. :whistling2:

I can only conclude you were talking complete and utter bull yourself and as a result need to go back a few steps and re-evaluate what you have learnt.

Oh and as a result from this persons last peice of advise to a person on this forum, who obviously did not bathe the animal in question because of (INCORRECT INFORMATION), It died, how do I know this, because I was PM'd a week ago asking for advise, however if the truth must be told it was too late.

I will also be quoting you and posting this should I see you giving wrong information out to people who have no clue also to prove a point.

Congragulations... and I know that you will read this.


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## Industrial (Jan 16, 2010)

lovemysnakes said:


> Thanks Industrial. I of course am worried because she is in the most important years of her life, pre maturity and when she is doing the most growing and developing. I am hopeful that she can make a recovery and live a long and healthy life but I am most concerned that she will not live as many years as say my two other captive breds which are still hatchlings. Its like any animal a good start usually results in the animal living to a ripe old age.
> The reason I love reptiles so much is their ability to live so long. They are my companions and I want to keep them that way for as long as possible. This longing for life long pet companionship has actually made me think that I'm at a good age to get a tortoise because I will be able to care for it from hatchling to a grand age of 50. That's an estimate at a life span for a tort but I know it differs massively and would only get something like a box turtle that can live hundreds of years if it was to be kept in the family over generations lol.
> She didn't like me very much today, she hates going in the rub and didn't enjoy her bath much at all and went straight into hiding once back in her viv but the hide is under the bask spot so I'm sure she warmed up nicely before lights out.
> I just hope she continues to eat tomorrow after the stress of today and if she eats well I will bath her again in the afternoon. TBH I think I was more stressed than she was by the vets and bathing lol. I get very emotionally attached and start to think of them as having the social and cognitive abilities of a human being which I know they don't so i just torture myself lol.
> ...


Yes I understand, although mine was a year old he was small for his age as you may guess and still had a fair bit of growing to do, so I too had concerns too about the affect it may have had on his development. Also like yours mine was very skittish because of his mistreatment and showing signs of aggression towards me, he has settled down well now but must admit it took a very long time to do so. Hope yours get's back on her feet soon.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

Sal, 
i got a bit confused when you said 'you' i thought you were talking to me directly lol but since you pm'd me i now know you were talking to the other member who may see this thread lol - very confusing!! lol 

Industrial, 
My Lea also has growing to do so hope she will make a full recovery but i would only really know if she shows signs of kidney failiure or if i get scans done over the years which i more than likely wont if she is showing good health. 
Lea is skittish but not aggresive, she let me put food to her mouth and was very interested by me over the weekend and kept coming up to look at me through the peep hole i have in her vivarium, as its blacked out to make her feel more secure. 

Im really glad your BD has progressed so well, its a real credit to your husbandry skills industrial


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

lovemysnakes said:


> Sal,
> i got a bit confused when you said 'you' i thought you were talking to me directly lol but since you pm'd me i now know you were talking to the other member who may see this thread lol - very confusing!! lol
> 
> Industrial,
> ...


 
LOL thats why I explained in my PM first, it was kind of hard quoting what you said and then not naming another person lol.: victory:


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

lol fair enough. 
i know many people that say desert species do not need access to water beause they get all thier water from thier diet, however my vet recommended that as long as the vivarium hudmidity is not increased than a water dish should be supplied at all times because it does no harm. 

my vivariums are made by myself specifically for very good air exchange and therefore i could prob put a bucket of water in there and the humidity wouldnt rise high enough to be considered unhealthy for a desert species. 

in the desert there is still around 20-30% humidity.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

lovemysnakes said:


> lol fair enough.
> i know many people that say desert species do not need access to water beause they get all thier water from thier diet, however my vet recommended that as long as the vivarium hudmidity is not increased than a water dish should be supplied at all times because it does no harm.
> 
> my vivariums are made by myself specifically for very good air exchange and therefore i could prob put a bucket of water in there and the humidity wouldnt rise high enough to be considered unhealthy for a desert species.
> ...


The speicies in question was a water alot dependant too. Even more so than possibly a water dragon. I know what you mean about vets not being 100% though but within dehydrated animals it does encourage drinking and in my opinion can aid in rehydrateing the outside skins too, on top of this bathing is also a good idea for aiding shedding too. Bathign an animal is also good for psycological developement and excersize.

Many for example beardies are not aquatic, but put them in the bath or shower and watch some of the videos on here and it is easy to see which they prefer, and the beardie is not a high dependant on water animal, so can you imagine declining a water high humidity animal being declined what it was born to do? It is quite cruel and utterly unfair on the animal in question.

I just cannot quite get my head around how people assume these things, wild animals have access to the weather and an enviroment they are adapted too they more ofte than not have bushes, trees branches and bark, rocks etc that they can walk through, in or over to help them shed, wind rain, sunshine, water (sometimes more so with the food and high water content) but they still have it, and to decline an animal those things you must find another alternative, such as in captivity reptiles do not have access to the weather, sunshine, rain, wind etc and that is where us as the keepers must step in to assist, to neglect that fact it is crue and lazy to not offer such things, and this is not even hard, it is common sense.

So declining a high neede water animal water and was advised by a "supposed herpetologist" is:censor: disgusting.
and I do know that they have or will read this considerign they have a thing for spying on me at the moment too, I very much would like to see what they have to say, although I very much doubt they will post on this thread now.

They would possibly get more respect out of me if they did though and just told the truth.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

it rains and snows in the high desert of the usa... gully washers... once i found a rattlesnake that had drowned...

deep in the burrows and rock crevasses where desert iguanas and chucks live respectively... it's cool and more humid...

desert species will soak in pools of water before they dissapear after downpours....

monsoon rains are not uncommon...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7okunTM6U84


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

HABU said:


> it rains and snows in the high desert of the usa... gully washers... once i found a rattlesnake that had drowned...
> 
> deep in the burrows and rock crevasses where desert iguanas and chucks live respectively... it's cool and more humid...
> 
> ...


:no1: off to watch that link as I type this .


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

‪Arizona: Wild Chuckwallas!‬‏ - YouTube


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## ruthyg (Oct 15, 2010)

Ooooh! I'm finding this really fascinating, I'm learning such a lot about chucks! Before this Em, I just knew they were CUTE! :lol2: I really think Lea will flourish in your care, and can't wait to see how she's getting on  
Wow Habu - a drowned rattlesnake! :O That's mad  Has anyone seen that 137hours film? The guy gets stuck in a crevice in a deserty place and hallucinates a storm. Not a bad film really. Not mind-blowing though. Anyway......


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

AWESOME FILM! AWESOME ACTOR! LOVE IT! lol 

ill post some pics of lea when her improvement really shows through a picture  so when shes put on a bit of weight


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

not mind blowing but would always recommend it! 
how many films do you know that are filmed in a cave with only on person on screen for most of the time lol. i was really impressed by its simplicity but a woman would have chopped off her arm before the first night lol. 
nah maybe just me...lol no way id stay down there in those freezing cold nights and scorching days. 
the adrenaline would still be pumping high from the accident so would be less painful to get it over and done with lol. 

leas eyes are nice and bright now and shes soo cheeky and bold. not phased by me at all now!

still trying to escape but not as much as before. eat a lot today and gave herself a bath. 

she does like to scatter food everywhere though! makes it harder to tell how much shes eaten but i had to top it up this afternoon because there wasnt much in there and the viola went really quick - put it in there and came back five mins later and it was gone! lol only put two small flowers in there though. im surprised how much water the petals hold actually, i would have thought there was more in the greens but apparently not. though they are slighty harder to digest hence the small quantity


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## 66921 (Feb 12, 2011)

How are the family today em?


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## imitebmike (Jun 22, 2008)

Lea eh?  thats a nice name  its one i use myself for one of me cresties xD

glad to hear she is getting better so fast too


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## ruthyg (Oct 15, 2010)

Yay! Hurrah for Lea perking up!  Stan's still in a mood with me cos I ran out of watercress 2 days ago  Nothing else is good enough  
You're so right - a woman wouldn't have waited 137hrs to get rescued. I know what you mean about 1 character, the camera's on him full time, I'm just not *quite* sure if he pulled it off. I spent half the film working out where I knew him from (Spiderman lol). I liked the bit at the end when you saw the real guy it was based on. Bet he's making a million off his story now  And good for him  Cmooooooooooon I wanna see some Lea pics! Pleeeeeeeeeease!! :jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::jump::roll2don't think dental anaesthetic has totally worn off yet - can you tell?!  ) x


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

lol. you nut nut ruth 

ok well first off, thank you everyone for your interest in Lea  
She is still looking rather thin but her appetite has gotten much better and she is eating enough to keep herself sustained however i would like her to eat a bit more to put on some weight but im sure this will happen in time. 
Her eyes and skin look worlds better and she seems to be looking after herself, giving herself baths lol. but her urates are still very solid block white, which is not a good sign so i will continue with the bathing. 

her colours have really come out now too - she looks like hot chocolate with cream bubbles on top and chocolate sprinkles! i should have called her coco! i called her lea because i like the name and i love starwars because i a right geek! lol. 

she is still active as anything but doesnt spend her whole day trying to escape anymore lol, just some of the day lol. i would love to provide her with more enrichment because she seems to be finding her 3ft quarentine viv a bit dull and small having not a great deal to climb etc. however i will make it more enriching for her after ive had her faecal results and shes put on some weight. she can jump very far and high so giving her the height of climb she would like will be difficult due to height restriction of vivarium and lighting then becoming too close. 

this goes to show that chuckwallas are incredibly agile and do require lots and lots of space. for next summer i will make them the largest outdoor enclosure i possibly can. 

and if lea gets tame enough, she like the boys will be able to run around the living room with my careful attention. 

i got the lab results back from the boys comprehensive faecal screen today and i am very pleased to say that they got the all clear for everything and showed a heavy gut flora volume which is great news! the diet ive been proving must be doing the trick! 

i think loki is a bit overweight so im going to try and exercize him a bit more in the living room. im not really concerned about how much they eat as they are young and growing, it is only really in adults that the weight can get a little too much. sauromalus ater are not really know for being overweight however so again, no real concern. 

and yes ruth you will have some piccie soon enough. i just want her to put on a bit more weight so i can show you what a great difference a couple of weeks of good husbandry makes in comparison to very poor husbandry. 

i have uncovered the front of the vivarium now so she can see me when im in the room. 
she doesnt seem bothered by me until i get up close and even then sometimes carries on with what shes doing - trying to escape lol. 
but today she had her face to the glass and seemed to be looking around the room. i put my finger up to her face on the glass and she gaped over and over. 
it was sooo funny but obviously very cruel so i wont do it again! lol. 

she also came toward me for the first time the other day and is more accepting of me approching her and will allow me to put food to her mouth but she only licks, does not eat. 

she really does seem to have a rather bossy personality and i imagine she will be a right character when shes in fully recovered. 

i am still keeping these interactions to a minimum but she certainly seems much more relaxed. and one big difference between her and the boys is that she is in her hide by 8pm more than likely sleeping where as the boys can be seen half poking out of a hide right up until 9pm and they are usually looking sleepy but awake lol.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

lovemysnakes said:


> lol. you nut nut ruth
> 
> ok well first off, thank you everyone for your interest in Lea
> She is still looking rather thin but her appetite has gotten much better and she is eating enough to keep herself sustained however i would like her to eat a bit more to put on some weight but im sure this will happen in time.
> ...


 
So you are awake :lol2: Enrichment sounds awesome ems, but quarintine and health are by far more important for now: victory: Sometimes it is hard seeing our animals in quarintine but it just shows responsibility, I know keepers who would never do this and then complain a few months later that there whole collection was ill.

Pics of comparison are always a good way to prove a point and I very much look forward to them.
If she is gaping at the finger, take it as a good sign she still has streghnth hehe, but yeah don't be so cruel! lmao I done that to Zilla once (trying to be clever and show off when he was in season and he got me good and proper) the force of the bite actually made me go down on my knees and honestly I thought he had tacken a few of my fingers off. I still have the video somewhere as I was recording for Nacros animal care department at the time and he made a damn fool out of me. I may very well use it as an example for why you should never provoke an animal that can potentially cause some damage and yes it was a hospital job.

I kind of had to press his head downward gently and attempt to pull my hand out instead my skin just tore some more so I attempted to gently pull his dewlap gently (as a vet would do) and he did let go immediately (he was a big iguana) and it was a simple case of trying to save my fingers. I learnt that day alot more respect for iguanas.

He gave me a nice whip on the back of the leg too, what made the bite worse was he was shaking from side to side like a bull dog would do. The size of him also put my iguana restraint expirience to the test. (easier said than done)
At the same time I was trying not to harm his teeth.

So yeah they can and do make a fool out of the best of us. LOL I do still have the scars to prove this event! that was the worst bite I have ever had in my life.

Bossy personalities are always good too hehe.

(so I went to hospital bleeding and with a limp) I got beat up by an iggy LOL.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

lol im not that silly, my finger was on the outside of the glass and she was inside! lol 
i did feel mean while i chuckled to myself but to be honest i continued to do it because it was really useful to look into her mouth and look at her teeth. 
the tip of her tongue was a bit red but i assume this is from all the licking shes been doing around the vivarium! shes been licking everything! it has calmed down now though shes more settled. 

vet looked in her mouth and down her throat and there were no problems there besides the obvious dehydration. 

if provoked i know lea wouldnt think twice about biting me! which is really odd for chucks because its just not something you hear of them doing, even wild caughts. but lea sure has some fire in her belly, so to speak! 

she knows what she wants and thats for her to be the boss of me - not going to happen! lol. 

she knows im a bit scared of her too lol. im not scared of her but i flinch when she moves quickly. just my bad nerves! i dont do it when the boys occassionally do it though..... hmmmm....the fact that her claws can cut into glass is a bit scary i spose!


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

lovemysnakes said:


> lol im not that silly, my finger was on the outside of the glass and she was inside! lol
> i did feel mean while i chuckled to myself but to be honest i continued to do it because it was really useful to look into her mouth and look at her teeth.
> the tip of her tongue was a bit red but i assume this is from all the licking shes been doing around the vivarium! shes been licking everything! it has calmed down now though shes more settled.
> 
> ...


 
I won't lie in honesty my reptiles secretly are my bosses shhhhh don't tell them that though:blush:

I still bloomin jump when my corn snake strikes it is just a reaction that comes automaticly lol. Yeah I know you have reasons for everything you do, it is all part of the facination and thrill of keeping them.

I have never learnt so much about anything else in my life with keeping reptiles.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

see i must be odd because snakes dont make me jump at all. not even the massive boas at the zoo which are the least tame snakes ever. 

i feel like i can predict snakes better than i can lizards. my chucks are much faster than most snakes too, that is prob what it is.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

lovemysnakes said:


> see i must be odd because snakes dont make me jump at all. not even the massive boas at the zoo which are the least tame snakes ever.
> 
> i feel like i can predict snakes better than i can lizards. my chucks are much faster than most snakes too, that is prob what it is.


LOL I am not afraid of them, they just take me by suprise making my heart hit my throat lol.

I love snakes, my life would be incomplete without them.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

hi guys, 

as you know ive been collecting leas poo for screening. and shes still not pooing a lot, anyway, what i have collected has bacterial growth all over it - white fluffy fungus looking. im guessing this means she defo has parasites? 

ive emailed pals asking if 10ml is enough to do a screen from, if so im sending it today. i cant believe theres all that bacteria in there. not good. 

she doesnt seem to be putting on much weight either, she looks like her fat stores are rebuilding themselves a bit and her lower abdoman looks fuller but in general she still looks really skinny.

she bathed herself again this morning. im going to bath her later anyway, for a little while to try and get some of that poo out of her. 

im really worried about her. i cant wait to get those lab results so i can treat her. shes not so active this morning but its still early.


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## ruthyg (Oct 15, 2010)

lovemysnakes said:


> hi guys,
> 
> as you know ive been collecting leas poo for screening. and shes still not pooing a lot, anyway, what i have collected has bacterial growth all over it - white fluffy fungus looking. im guessing this means she defo has parasites?
> 
> ...


Give her time  It'll be baby steps to begin with. After Stan's vet trip I was overjoyed when he put on 2g!! Now he's putting on 60-100+g a month! It will come  She sounds cooooool  Stan was sat on my shoulder yesterday and I think one of the kids moved suddenly or something cos he tail-whipped me right across the boobs! :gasp::blush: OWW! And parents in law were here too! :blush: He's still in a huff with me but did let me feed him some watercress earlier : victory:
You're doing really well hun, keep it up


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

thanks ruth. 
i do worry about my reptiles, they are my babies! 
i think once the parasites are gone she will start putting on a lot more weight. 

right time to do the baths!


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

hey guys, another upate on Lea. 
She didnt eat this morning or yesterday and she eat very little the day before so when i saw she had sunken eyes again thie morning i knew she was going downhill!

i went out and got a syringe and with help from my mum gave her a warm bath with some great advise from sal! thank you! 
if i hold my hand directly over her head it makes her gape so i did this and held the syringe full of warm water and energy drink mix and put it in her open mouth to one side, she bit down and i slowly dripped water into her mouth slowly so she had a chance to swallow inbetween drips. 
i also did the same with some natural yogurt. 

now that she is better hydrated and has some pro biotic yogurt to help her natural gut flora i can give her slurry. 

this will wait until the morning where i wil repeat the procedure followed by slurry an hour later. 

i will also provide a stew for her and continue to place a large water bowl in her viv. 

lets just hope she copes with the stress. its going to be a battle to keep her alive!!
at times she closes her eyes and goes limp, wanting to give up and then suddenly her bossy and head strong suriver instincts kick in and shes agressive and ready to dash lol. 
i prey that personality helps her to recover. im pretty sure shes wild caught now! 

my boys are like a completely different animal.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

lovemysnakes said:


> hey guys, another upate on Lea.
> She didnt eat this morning or yesterday and she eat very little the day before so when i saw she had sunken eyes again thie morning i knew she was going downhill!
> 
> i went out and got a syringe and with help from my mum gave her a warm bath with some great advise from sal! thank you!
> ...


No probs ems and and it is a very good sign if her eyes do not appear sunken.

Sometimes when reptiles go limp, they play dead, it is a survival technique if something "like a human" over powers them. (only seen this with a handful of animals though) so it could be that.

A good way to tell is her pupil will go smaller when she goes limp, a wild animal would not know that but if you know what your looking for it is an easy deception, either way It might not be so I don't wanna go too indepth.

Your best bet and goal like you say ems would be to use that method we discussed to rehydrate her, at least that will be something to work towards ontil you can get her seen too.

I agree with the helping of the gut flora too if she is to put some weight back on it is vital that this is sorted

You want to have everything checked at the vets, xrays, bloodtests, (I think you already had the screening done didnt you)

Ems with the high amount of water content you are hoping to pump her with she might very well vomit when handled recklessly. Try not to freak ou it happens and just try again. I thought it appropriate to mention just incase, some people I have advised in the past pmd me paniking about this.
Also try the Nasturtium where ever possible too, even after she has seen a vet.: victory:

Wishing you both luck.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

*hydration, shock, weight gain and nasturtium*

Thanks Sal! 
Mum very gently handled her while in the bath and while I was administering liquid/yogurt orally and put her back in her viv. Besides for treating she is not handled and I watched her for 20mins once we put her back and encouraged her to swallow rubbing her throat and head a little. She gaped to show it had all gone down. Lol. 

I look forward to putting some highly nutritious food in her tomorrow. 
I've left her lights on an extra little while for her to make sure she's fully warmed up for the night too. 

Hopefully I didn't over do it with the fluid therapy. I don't think I did because I was using a small and specific measured syringe. 
I will observe her first thing tomorrow and check her behaviour. Can only hope for the best. 

As far as screening is concerned, samples have been sent to lab with a note explaining the results are urgently needed for very poorly reptile. Hope I will have them back soon so any parasites, cysts etc can be treated specifically. 

I will ensure that everything is done at the vets on Monday. Vet did say she had a back up of feacle matter, this may turn out to be impaction perhaps? 

I am fully dedicated to getting her better. I just wish that it didn't have to be this way. if I am right and she is wild caught then it proves a point and if not than it goes to show how important it is to tame animals, not for us but for them. My boys seem pretty comfortable with me doing anything with them. I'm a really noisy person and when doing the daily viv clean I make lots of noise. Lol. They don't bat an eyelid even when I'm holding things above their head and moving quickly. They just watch me and sometimes get in my way. Sometimes they climb up and perch on my shoulder while I potter around the reptile room. I really hope that one day Lea and I can have a relationship. At the moment we are unable to bond due to her being ill. And I don't want to get too attached in case she doesn't make it  
Nasturtium is part of my chuckwalla's weekly diet anyway. I grow it and buy it. They love it which helps but the hatchlings done get a great deal of flowers because very young reps find them difficult to digest in great quantities. 

I use so many different herbs and flowers in their diet, I am not to miss a thing so do loads of variety in small quantities. 

Anyway, nothing I can do right now for her, just read up care of ill herbivore reptiles and then wait until the morning. 

hopefully the vet will have something he can do to boost her, hydration shots maybe. 
But until then I know herbs are great stuff and I'm doing everything I know that helps.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

*Time to themselves, A peaceful Home*

Also in regards to handling and interaction, Leas viv is still blacked out meaning she can not see the larger room around her and me if I walk in the room. 
Hopefully this is helping to reduce the stress. 
I am fortunate enough to have a very quiet home and Lea is in my bedroom which I spent almost no time in. Obviously having her in the same room as my other reptiles would make no sense at all. 
I am able to monitor temperatures and observe her behaviour etc by peering over into the vivarium through the mesh lid. This gives a greater sense of distance between us also so she usually pays little interest in my quiet observations. 

I try to make it so she hardly knows I live in the same place as her lol and handling is only done for vet visits, force feeding and bathing. 

I am able to use the syringe to drip a little water into her mouth if I do open the viv door and hold it above her head until she gapes. This way I don't even have to handle her and she can dash to a hide if feeling very threatened. 

She is so unaccustomed to humans, even if she was well, interaction would be minimal to start with. If she recovers and becomes strong, handling will be something that I do not expect. Even with my boys I did not pick them up. I carried out trust exercises until they felt comfortable enough to climb on my hand. Now they jump at me and I still don't pick them up unless they are getting into mischief while roaming the living room lol.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

She is very lucky to have you as her gaurdian Ems.
I am sure you are doing your best.: victory:


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

hi guys, another update on Lea
shes still not eating much for herself at all so im force feeding her water, energy drink, yogurt and organic baby food which seems to really be helping and ive gained the skill to do it now so its over and done with nice and quick for her. 

im bathing her shortly but i just placed some dandelion flowers in her viv and shes eaten them all. very good sign, hopefully she will start eating more now shes got some gut flora going and is better hydrated. 

ive been sick as a dog today so didnt get up in time to get her an appointment with the vet but ive emailed them and im pretty sure he will tell me to keep doing what i am and wait until faecal screen results come in before i take her back as shes picking up a bit. shes full of energy so im not concerned shes dieing and her waste seems much more normal now ive been force feeding her. 

ill call tomorrow first thing if vet doesnt reply to my email tonight.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

*Update on Lea's progress*

Hi all, 

Just an update on lea really. 
She seems to be eating a little bit more. She was only eating dandelion flowers but as I havnt been able to get any for a couple of days she appears to have eaten some greens, in particular coriander. I'm sure its the strong aroma she's attracted to and its appetite stimulating properties will hopefully encourage her to eat more. 

I am force feeding though once a day and only later in the day no so if she feels hungry at peak times she is more likely to go for her salad and won't be full because of my intervention. 
She actually seems to like the baby food I bought for her though which I water down with cooled boiled water and add a very small amount of nutrobal to. 

The herp vet kindly called me and informed that I no longer need to be giving her yogurt as only a very small amount should have done the job of boosting gut flora and that due to the sugar and carbs in energy drinks this should no longer be used either. 

He suggested a slurry consisting of the normal diet should be force fed if she is still not eating well. 

The baby food I have is fully organic with no added sugars etc so I'm using this for the moment as it contains the key ingredients of a regular herbivore's diet though I will be getting a food blender ASAP to give her a great slurry which is easy to feed with a syringe. 

I'm bathing her every other day for about 15mins. I would bath her for longer but it does seem to stress her a little and I really do want to avoid additional stress as much as possible. 

hopefully I will get her results from her faecal screen today and can take her to the vets to have her treated for whatever comes up on the lab results. 

Once she is treated her appetite should be normal and I won't have to aid her any further. 
Once she has been treated then I will do another faecal screen to ensure she is in good condition. 
The vet advised that x-rays and blood tests can be done if the faecal screens show negative results because we may then be looking for blood parasites etc. But hopefully this is not the case as this would mean more stressful procedures and treatments for her. 
Again if she is treated for parasites and her health does not dramatically improve then further investigation will be carried out. 

She doesn't look great I must admit, it is easy to see that her fat stores are pretty much 100% completed though by the end of each day it is reassuring to see that she is holding water and that she is defecating a lot more. 

Her eyes look much brighter now and while I have been handling her I have noticed she has some scales missing from her tail. I believe this to be an additional sign that she is indeed wild caught. 

It is very handy to have the boys to make comparisons to! Although they are much smaller and younger than Lea their behaviours and health gives a great indication as to exactly what Leas condition is on any given day. 

The boys produce large dark stools that are well formed. They have strong appetites consuming a lot of chuck salad daily. Their basking periods mimic that of wild chucks, meaning they don't have to spend the whole day basking to attain the heat and UV they need to thrive. 
Lea is still spending a great deal of time basking. Which I expect is because she is larger and wants to keep her core temperature high to maintain energy levels as she is experiencing captive stress. 
Her basking however has reduced some what in the last few days and she has always gone into the cool end when optimum body temperature has been attained. 

She is climbing the walls in an attempt to escape far less now as it seems she is slowly ajusting to her vivarium. All the corners of the vivarium have something there to prevent her from constantly digging at them, which has worked well and now she does not even attempt to dig at the corners. 
Now she is more accustomed to me pottering around, I am also able to service her vivarium more freely without unsettling her so it is being disinfected daily in the obvious areas and weekly for the entire vivarium. This is done while she is bathing to aid reduce stress. 

The vivarium is still blacked out and it will remain this way until I am convinced she is in full health. Only then will I be able to carry out interaction exercises to build her trust in me. Though this appears to becoming naturally to this clever animal. Once she has been forced fed I will watch her for a while and she will approach me a little and watch me as intently as I watch her. Very rewarding  as well as her turning to see I have opened the vivarium doors to go a temp gun check. She turns, looks and then continues to bask in her original position and appears relaxed which if the case is great progress. 

Anyway I shall stop rambling. Lea is in no means out of the woods and her life expectancy is still unsure but hopefully she will overcome this and will be a healthy fat chuck  

I will soon be writing to both pets at home and monkfield nutrition to update them on lea and her struggles. Hopefully they will learn something from this although it is unlikely. 

I know it is teaching me a lot and I hope this acts as a very strong warning against wild caught animals, buying from chain stores and purchasing an animal which you have not had complete observations of. 

My advice for everyone would be to use good private breeders! My boys come from a brilliant breeder and they have been in great form from the very beginning.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Fingers crossed for Lea Ems, having read all that and knowing the methods you have been using and from what you have been saying I think Lea is very fortunate to have you, considering she would probibly be dead by now without your intervention.

I think, after all those vet appointments and screening and home remedies she stands a good chance of surviving.

If she is eating dandilions it is a very good sign, when animals tend to get sick my biggest fear is them declining there life psycologically, when that happens there is not alot anyone can do for them, this also includes people who have the ability to communicate intelligently so for an animal it is a very slim chance of survival, Lea does not seem to be declining psycologically so I can only assume that is a good thing.

It does sound like a good thing placing objects and decor into the corners of the viv to stop her digging.

All I can say is you are 100% one of the few I can sincerely offer my respect too knowing what you are going through and what you have done for her.

I hope she pulls through because she deserves to live a happy and healthy life.
As for writing to [email protected] I would also like to add a few things to them, but out of politness of the readers I will refrain for now...


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

*she doesnt give up the fight*

Thanks so much for that Sal. From such an experienced reptile keeper it means a lot to be respected for my husbandry when I am relatively new to keeping reptiles. 

Originally she even declined dandelions, which was very concerning but since the yogurt was administered she wolfs them down just fine. I'm going to go on a half an hour drive to a field I've been told about to collect dandelions for her as the council have just cut all the grass in my area - I think I'm the only person in the borough that would complain about such a thing. Lol.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

lovemysnakes said:


> Thanks so much for that Sal. From such an experienced reptile keeper it means a lot to be respected for my husbandry when I am relatively new to keeping reptiles.
> 
> Originally she even declined dandelions, which was very concerning but since the yogurt was administered she wolfs them down just fine. I'm going to go on a half an hour drive to a field I've been told about to collect dandelions for her as the council have just cut all the grass in my area - I think I'm the only person in the borough that would complain about such a thing. Lol.


You flatter me lol. I would not consider myself that expirienced compared to some others in the hobby. I will admit I have adequate expirience to get me and my animals by but that is not making me the "man" I am sure that someone here on this forum has had more expirience than myself infact I know.... they just tend not to post as often and approach by pm 

I have learnt so much from the keepers of this forum I would list a few names but I am unsure whether they would appreciate me doing so.

Expirienced or not respect is what you deserve and I know keepers who have been in the hobby for over 30 years and would not have went to the leghnths you have for Lea so it makes no difference to me how much expirience someone has.

Someone could be in the hobby for 100 years, it does not make them an expirienced keeper or for that matter a good keeper. What makes a good keeper is the respect, and good husbandry practice they give their animals, the passion, care and love. (like you have provided) I can honestly say I do not know of anyone so new to the hobby who would go to such leghnths.

Having 100 animals does not make you a respected or for that matter expireinced keeper, infact they could very well be doing 100 things "wrong"

Lea as you say is not out of the woods yet ems but you should be pleased with what she has acheived, if she declined health mentally it would probibly result in her needing to be euthanised, even vets have found that they can't do anything.

Take a depressed person for example, once they decide they have had enough, they have had enough! and nothing anyone can do can help them.

I know keepers who have been in the hobby for over 30 years and some of them are by far not the best keepers, and just because they have that title over there heads does not make them more knowledgible or for that matter respectful 

New to the hobby or not you have my respect.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

*Aspergillus spp.*
· direct contact, inhalation
· isolated from skin, pulmonary, and systemic lesions of reptiles
· immunocompromised patients are highly susceptible to disseminated disease
· bronchopneumonia, disseminated infections (thyroid, brain, myocardium), and/or hypersensitivity

thats one of the things my poor lea has in her


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

http://www.zooparaz.net/mihalca01.pdf

and nematode larve found  

no wonder shes not well!!!!


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

i was only able to give them 10ml to work with so more detailed analysis of fungus and larve found could not be done. for example just how infected she is! 

i would love to know how bad her illnesses are as this will show the poor husbandry she recieved prior to her being in my care. 

also i may add, her gut flora was fine, which i am sure is due to the pro-biotic yogurt i gave her. 

it makes me soooooooo angry! not only could she die but i and my family could have become ill and my other reptiles could have become infected! 

this is why quarentine is soooooooooo important! 

i will have to spend more money getting a few more screens done for her before she can join one of the boys and i will have to get the boys screened again to ensure that my quarentine procedures have been affective. i use different cleaning equitment for the boys and she is in a different room. after any handling of anything of hers i always ensure i wash my hands well and the same goes for the boys. 

lets hope that the boys have no contracted anything from her and that we can get her treated and better quickly! 

im going to start wearing gloves when i handle future quarentine reptiles too! can never be too safe. 

although she does not have salmonella, which is the most obvious health concern for humans!


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

im so sad she has worms in her tummy.....EWWWWWW


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

i just looked up why and how reptiles contract worms and its found in WC's and if contracted due to unclean environments. 

How can monkfield nutrition be so brazen! gits!


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

lovemysnakes said:


> i just looked up why and how reptiles contract worms and its found in WC's and if contracted due to unclean environments.
> 
> How can monkfield nutrition be so brazen! gits!


Worms come in many forms, from contact with another animals that have it, to livefoods, and even from you if you have had contact with another infected animal. 

There are various methods of infection doesnt necessarily mean worms. 

however, you do appear to be doing a good job. 

Little tip: try offering manuka honey to the uro (10+ or 15 +) this is a natural anti-inflementary and anti-biotic and is very good for both people and reps and is brillant and boosting animals imune systems. I use it where possiable and with all WC's to help boost the imune system. 

jay


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

thanks jay. 
she was ill when i got her, chuckwalla not uro. 
my reptiles are all in good health with recent full parasitology tests done and clear.
my quarentine procedures are always followed without exception. there is no possible way she became ill due to her environment in my care. 

i do use bee pollen, which contains much of the same properties as the honey you mentioned, though i am more than happy to try this also. 

the herp vet has suggested we do not treat the fungal infetction first due to the high risk of treatments but that we use antibiotics to treat the bacterial infection first. 

i will be picking up medication tomorrow which will be administered orally. if this does not work well then we will be using an injection form which is injected every three days.

her fungal infection will be treated if and when she is stronger before she is introduced to one of my male chuckwallas. 

i am so angry that she is so unwell. there is no excuse for her to be in this condition. 
she is either wild caught or the conditions in which she was kept at monkfield nutrition were very poor!

so its still wishful thinking. fingers crossed. 

ill update you when theres any changes. hopefully she will not die from suffering in this way. 
the herp


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

the vet informed she does have worms.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Sorry i ment chuck, dont know why i said Uro. 

The Manuka is wondrful stuff and really helps out, i use it on nearlly all of my Wc stuff. At best it treats the ainimal with an antibotic and and anti inflenentry, at worst it's a sweet treat. You can get the 15+ stuff which is the best from sainsbury's for about £7.

It is amazing at helping out reps. 

Jay


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

thanks Jay, 

i had a look on sainsburys website and it looks pretty good. i will definatly use it! 
i much prefer using natural remedies. i will only give her a small amount mixed with warm water in a syringe, too much of anything is never good. 

but great news, she ate a fair bit today for the first time. and she took a couple of dandelion flowers from my hand. 

so nice to see her looking better and eating. by no means is she out of the woods but her eating must be a good sign. 

i swear by coriander and rosemary for stimulating appetite! 

i gave her and the boys some bee pollen this evening and they all have yellow stained faces lol. funny. bee pollen is known to be one of the best things for boosting the immune system, providing energy and lots of nutritional value. 

ive also been using nasturtium, again the same as above. also butternut squash is always in their diet in small quantities. 

my alfalfa is well matured now so they are loving that. i really should try to have a diet as good as my chucks lol. 

i feel sorry for any future children i may have - they will be fed like a science project lol. 

just thought, i think i will give the chucks some peppermint tomorrow. has lots of benefits for bowls etc, anti toxins etc. plus it will make them smell nice. 

not that they dont smell nice. the rep room smells of peppery herbs now days! i think the snakes are going to start kicking up a fuss about the chucks taking over lol.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

oh and i know this may nt be pleasent, but im so glad to see her waste! she has fluid in her urates now and poo is small but much more normal looking! 

i will ask the vet how this affects any treatment, ideally i would rather keep unnatural medicines to a minimum if i can. 

i cant use antibiotics myself as i am highly allergic so ive always had to use alternative medicines. 

if anyone knows of anything else that may help would greatly appreciate it! 

thanks again!


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

lovemysnakes said:


> thanks Jay,
> 
> i had a look on sainsburys website and it looks pretty good. i will definatly use it!
> i much prefer using natural remedies. i will only give her a small amount mixed with warm water in a syringe, too much of anything is never good.
> ...



Rather then provind the honey watered down, try putting some on a teaspoon and allowing it to lick it of, alternativly put some on their lips and they will lick it of. it's far less stressful for the animals then using a syrange and force feeding. 

im a fan of alternative/natural methods where possiable as well. 

jay


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

i would love not to have to force feed but lea wont have any of that! lol maybe ill put some on dandelion flowers, she might take it that way  
the syringe isnt that stressful for her because she will gape and i quickly drip a bit in. ive never forced her mouth open. sometimes i can do it without even getting her out of her viv and just hold the syringe abover her head and she will gape. 

thanks again jay


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

As ems knows I have recently been forced to forcefeed a male water dragon, he has suspected mbd (showing small symptoms of it)

The guy we got him from took over from our rescue work and has exhausted alot of options hence he has came to me.

He has already seen a vet (not by me I might add but I do have a copy of the receipt)

He has not eaten for some months now, so I have just dusted some meal worms there grabed him and gave him something to eat.

He will be going back in the bath again shortly as he is shedding at the minute and is not sitting under his UV lamp so I am intedning to help him out where ever possible.

*going to try and find a reflector for the UV light!

He is really not happy with me at the minute. I have just had to chase him around as he managed to slip through my hand and run up the curtain too. lol.

*sighs* the joys of animals.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

it is so stressful at times but it really does pay off when you see improvements. 

im glad to hear that the supplemented meal worms went down well. they will slip down his throat easier. 

the energy drink baths seem to do great for Lea so thanks again for that Sal. 

i only had to give her two of those baths and there was a difference in her. though this is the same time i was force feeding her so hard to tell what it was, but im saying both. lol. 

another thing i did was to mix supplements up in warm water and then force feed that with a syringe. 

it would be well worth you investing in some vet ark critical care to help him out too. ive heard good things about it and its potent! 
because lea was already improving my vet said she wouldnt need it but your new WC isnt in great shape at all so im thinking you can lose out by trying?

its not a nice feeling when they are hateful towards you is it? even though im not handling lea now she still gapes at me lol. but i know its just fear. id be fearful/agressive too if a giant picked me up and forced me to eat! 

you remember what you told me about getting the calcium into them gradually? well maybe that you dont have the reflector in place at the moment is a better thing, though im sure his previous carers had him exposed to UV so it wouldnt be a shock to him. 

are you making food avaliable to him as well as force feeding? i imagine you are. 
having the food hopping around for a little while may stimulate something in him. 

im sure he will improve in your care Sal, dont know anyone with so much experience recovering ill reps!


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

lovemysnakes said:


> it is so stressful at times but it really does pay off when you see improvements.
> 
> im glad to hear that the supplemented meal worms went down well. they will slip down his throat easier.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks Ems, I am sincerely hoping so, we have had some hopeless cases before in the past which we have managed to help *bearing in mind* where I grew up a reptile specialist vet was never herd of, my dad and aunt are or should I say were very "old method" people like many of the older generations of people in the hobby they too had to find there own methods to help the animals ills.

So I am not out of options yet, I am going to try a few methods but hopefully now he has eaten something it will give him some strgnth and I will see an improvement.

Vet ark critical care sounds like an awesome idea, and the energy drink method for the bath also sounds great 

There is a few things which can be done that my friend has not tried yet, but with him having over 60 animals and struggling to pay for current vet costs etc (I know how difficult it can be) I thought this water dragon needs some indivudual care so I will give it my best.

He is a little stunner.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

aww bless him. 
yeh i know its not easy. it takes real dedication. you pretty much have to treat them like they are in the ICU lol. be there at all times, sly but constant observation and serious decisions to make which can change outcomes. 

its like with lea, shes eating and has a full belly. but at any point i know she can go downhill again. it takes a great deal of time before one can say, theres a healthy reptile. 

making time for other reptiles isnt easy either. my poor snakes havnt had the usual level of interaction they would recieve nor the boys. but im making up for it now lea doesnt need watching all the time. 

i must say though, as hard as its been caring for lea, i would do it again. i just wouldnt pay for it! lol. 

ive learnt so much, i imagine this experience will really aid my skills for breeding. a healthy animal is a fertile animal after all.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

lovemysnakes said:


> aww bless him.
> yeh i know its not easy. it takes real dedication. you pretty much have to treat them like they are in the ICU lol. be there at all times, sly but constant observation and serious decisions to make which can change outcomes.
> 
> its like with lea, shes eating and has a full belly. but at any point i know she can go downhill again. it takes a great deal of time before one can say, theres a healthy reptile.
> ...


 
I am in no financial situation really to rescue or rehome any more, for the present I have enough animals to bring joy to my life.
I am hoping to get some of them separated into there own naturalistic setups though, I do co-habit my corn snakes etc, but I would love to be able to have vivs for each and every one of them, mainly because I don't beleive and dont get as much satisfaction from them in rubs  (not meant to offend anyone) 

Keeping exotic animals has enhanced alot of my knowledge and not just the iguanas, (people are shocked when I post on anything other than an iguana thread LOL!)

It is horrible that the male sees me this way but at times like these it is cruel to be kind really, if he makes a recovery with forcefell methods I can get to the taming later but for the moment his health is priority, regardless how I feel about it lol.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

thats it, lea hates me now but i hope in the future she will learn to trust me. 
i didnt enjoy any of the things i had to do. i have to weigh her yet and not looking forward to that either. i feel so bad for handling her knowing its stressful for her but as you said, cruel to be kind. 
i was almost in tears when she was in the bath, scrambling to get free. i held her so losely so she felt some element of control. i would let her move around and gently sway her back in to the water. 
sometimes i can see in her eyes just pure fear and it kills me! im such a wimp! 
funny how i can tie up a goat and cut its throat then eat it for dinner but i dont like medicating my sick pet lol. 
the goat didnt suffer though and is the best meat i think ive ever eaten! 
im going to post some pics of lea now.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)




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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)




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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)




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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

you can see that she still has a way to go, but i promise you shes looking better than she was. in the photos i first posted she had just been handled so was a little puffed up which made her look fuller than she actually was/is. 
in these pics her body is relaxed. i can see her fat stores growing down the side of her body and her skin looks much brighter, not just in colour, but the texture - like it has more moisture in it. 
also her eyes are much more clear, they have a real shine to them now and the muscle tone in her tail is returning.
before when she was upright like in the second picture, you would see her pelvic bones, which are not visable now. 

she is still unwell and has a long way to go before she is in good condition but at least theres much more hope for some great improvement now. i will continue to treat her sensitively for the next year or so. 
i treat my boys sensitively also as they are still young. 
when i say sensitive care, i mean intensive care. counting the calciumhosphurus content in their diets, providing bee pollen and several beneficial herbs a bit more often than i would with an already well established healthy reptile. 
they all get frequent observation at the moment which obviously is like having a a real baby to care for lol. hopefully soon i can chill out a bit! lol


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

recent update of lea - looking like shes got a bit of meat on her now! 
finally!


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

another pic of lea showing how shes progressing.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)




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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

i think its really easy to see how she has changed. 

if you look at the first picture on page one of this thread you will see how she was when i got her. 
she clearly doesnt have much weight or muscle on her especially around the gut and back legs. her tail was also lacking some serious muscle tone. 

if you see the pictures of her now, you can certainly see she has filled out and to me her legs have shown the biggest improvement. they are now thick and clearly have good muscle tone. also her tail is thicker and is gradually getting to be what it should be like. hopefully in another few months ill be able to post pictures of her looking in tip top condition with a big fat tail. 

when i first got her i saw one of her claws was very limp looking, they have very long claws, toes, and they are pretty flexible but this one claw just didnt seem right. 

turns out she has now developed an absecess exactly on that claw. i will posting a new thread for this as its not something we see every day. 

thanks to anyone following lea and her progress.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Great pics, but lol ems, you do know you can edit a post and put all the pics in one post  rather than individually don't you? 

All you need to do is look at a previouse post and click the edit button after posting.
that way you don't need to repeatedly bump up the thread in less than 30 secs 

Your doing it the hard way 

She looks great though and you can deffo see the progress she has made, well done.: victory:


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

yeh i know lol. i prob should put it all in one post, will bother now youve moaned about it lol.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

lovemysnakes said:


> yeh i know lol. i prob should put it all in one post, will bother now youve moaned about it lol.


:lol2: just saying:whistling2::Na_Na_Na_Na:
I edit my posts all the time lmao.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

i know, it was just effort because i was uploading pics at the same time lol. 
im glad you can see improvement  

though ive posted pics of the swelling she has on her claw in lizards. poor lea. she starts treatment monday.

im glad i did wait to treat her because i dont think she would have put on so much weight and relaxed so much if id started treatment straight away. 

and we all know how antibiotics work so its much better that shes stronger. 

hopefully after the antibiotics she will improve even more, than i will do another screen and see if she stills needs treating for fungal infection. 

after that she should be ready to get to optimum health. its quite clear how badly treated she was and ive noticed too that shes got quite a few scales missing in her tail, i think this is evident that shes WC and not captive hatched. 

I do hate lies!!!! and i certainly do hate Monkfield Nutrition!!!!!! 
Im really looking forward to getting my herp vet to write them a letter outlining all of her issues and how they could have been prevented and how we have to treat them. 

Once all her treatment is done both PAH and MN will get letters from me. Something makes me think they will not take responsibilty for her condition though....as they have done so far...deny deny deny...They must not have hearts.


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