# Hamm- The Star of the Show -for me anyway -)



## hogboy

Was a Corn -)







The Scaleless cornsnake, coming to all morphs soon
I had seen pics of these guys, but nothing compares to seeing them in the flesh
And they feel like no other snake i have ever encountered.
i was really blown away by these things.
This was an Okeetee, but there were also Anerys and a few others, big price tag, but................. worth it i think.
No other animal created such a buzz by all who had seen it
The other Star was the Toffeebelly Hognose, i'm in love -)


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## White_raven666

I think its hideous. my opinion though:notworthy:
A brilliant example of inbreeding. Spose if youre into leatherback beardies and enigma leopard geckos then thisll be your thing too.


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## hogboy

I dont think inbreeding has anything to do with it.
Just a one off wc oddball, thats proven to be recessive.
Not everyones cup of tea, but i've never seen anything like it before.


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## ophidianman

hogboy said:


> Was a Corn -)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Scaleless cornsnake, coming to all morphs soon
> I had seen pics of these guys, but nothing compares to seeing them in the flesh
> And they feel like no other snake i have ever encountered.
> i was really blown away by these things.
> This was an Okeetee, but there were also Anerys and a few others, big price tag, but................. worth it i think.
> No other animal created such a buzz by all who had seen it
> The other Star was the Toffeebelly Hognose, i'm in love -)
> 
> image
> 
> image



I agree. Two and a half grand is a lot to pay for a guttata but they had males there that will breed next year.............So make loadsa hets with different colours / morphs and hopefully you'll be quids in in a couple of years time ?

Missed the 'Toffee Belly'. I wanted to see one but didn't have time before the show opened to get round everywhere. Once the doors open it's 'man the stand' and it's difficult to get out in the crowds again. Thanks for posting the pics.


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## Alex M

They look amazing in many ways, but i'm personally very much against this kind of thing, trying to breed something that would not naturally survive in the wild should it occur. The 'new school' keepers want to turn reptiles into poodles and i despise it. Only my personal opinion.


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## tonkaz0

yea Im not sure about scaleless!, but the pattern is bloody awsome : victory:.


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## hogboy

I'd seen the Toffeebelly hogs in pics, and thought they were ok, but seeing the 3 colour phases in person blew me away.
Just thought they were a little bit too pricey, but when the price comes down a bit, they will be Massive


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## ophidianman

Alex M said:


> They look amazing in many ways, but i'm personally very much against this kind of thing, messing with nature to extremes. The 'new school' keepers want to turn reptiles into poodles and i despise it. Only my personal opinion.


Al. It's not 'Messing with Nature'. Nature created it in the first place. A naturally occurring 'mutant' If its selective breeding from an original wild caught specimen I don't see a problem.


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## Alex M

ophidianman said:


> Al. It's not 'Messing with Nature. Nature created it in the first place. A naturally occurring 'mutant' If its selective breeding from an original wild caught specimen I don't see a problem.


Bare with me Geoff as it's pub talk flowing from my fingers! Just i'm not sure that these particular mutants would survive for long in the wild, the little i know about 'scaleless' herps tells me that they're very susceptible to skin infections etc and are very problematic to keep?. It's kind of like breeding people to be disabled, no? (absolutely no offence intended, i'm sure people reading will understand the point i'm trying to make).


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## penfold

i think these were totally stunning i thought the price was £3500 each when we asked as for breeding something that would not survive in the wild what about albinos etc:2thumb:


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## SiUK

Alex M said:


> Bare with me Geoff as it's pub talk flowing from my fingers! Just i'm not sure that these particular mutants would survive for long in the wild, the little i know about 'scaleless' herps tells me that they're very susceptible to skin infections etc and are very problematic to keep?. It's kind of like breeding people to be disabled, no? (absolutely no offence intended, i'm sure people reading will understand the point i'm trying to make).


in fairness most of the morphs we see today, all the different colours ect wouldnt last two minutes in the wild.


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## Arachnoking

Gorgeous snakes. Really do like these


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## DASSIE

they looked awsome !!!! really bright and totally different to anything i have ever seen before .


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## Alex M

R.e Terry and Si...

I can see where you guys are coming from and as it happens you're most probably right, i just didn't look at it that way!, my bad :bash:.

I suppose it's just the fact that 'scaleless' animals would naturally die off quite quickly probably due to illness as opposed to an albino snake that, if it escaped predators, could generally live a normal life. Therefore should we deliberately try to breed something that is open to illness and other associated problems?. It's very interesting topic though, have to say 

Al


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## Caz

Personally not my cup of tea, didn't like the 'feel' of them but the colour is stunning.


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## cokacola

I absoloutely love them, and can't wait for the price to drop


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## Molly75

I spent ages looking at those first in awe then not so sure about scaleless then decided a lot of lizards I keep do have very soft skin and are delicate but have no health issues so went bck to awe again 
Paula


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## karlos79

so wit that corn would u not have the problem of mites as the scaleless?


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## Jinja

I saw them and loved the look & feel of them but I do have my reservations, not sure why but I do...lol


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## ophidianman

Does anybody know how they slough? Does the skin come off in one piece as in a normally scaled guttata or do they shed like we do in lots of little pieces all the time?


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## Jinja

ophidianman said:


> Does anybody know how they slough? Does the skin come off in one piece as in a normally scaled guttata or do they shed like we do in lots of little pieces all the time?



Good question...!!


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## hogboy

ophidianman said:


> Does anybody know how they slough? Does the skin come off in one piece as in a normally scaled guttata or do they shed like we do in lots of little pieces all the time?


I asked that question, they shed normally.


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## ophidianman

hogboy said:


> I asked that question, they shed normally.


Thanks for clearing that up. I wonder if the skin is really thin and smooth like tissue paper? It'll be interesting to see what comes out of breeding these to different morphs and if there are any problems with skin disease as Al has mentioned?


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## hogboy

The more i see them, the more i want one :mf_dribble:


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## cornmorphs

one day... i wont pay that, coz i cant.. but i';ll have these.


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## lisafay

you were allowed hold them??! Was afraid to ask!!!
The great selective breeding of mutations debate again....
Of course most random mutations would not survive in the wild. Albinos would stand out like a sore thumb. 
As long as you're not planning on releasing them into the wild that's not a problem. We kill off a snake's natural wild immunity by breeding it in captivity for generations. Again, in captivity that's ok. 
I find colour genetics fascinating (am a genetic psychologist)
We just need to watch out for morph associated probs like genetic difficulties associated with jag/spider/enigma morphs.
I have an idea that most of these probs can be dealt with by widening the gene pool - interbreeding is a huge prob in the hobby and more ppl do it for generations than will ever admit to it.

I loved these corns - actually thinkin about gettin wit a friend to buy us a pair!!!


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## Alex M

lisafay said:


> As long as you're not planning on releasing them into the wild that's not a problem. We kill off a snake's natural wild immunity by breeding it in captivity for generations. Again, in captivity thats ok.
> 
> We just need to watch out for morph associated probs like genetic difficulties associated with jag/spider/enigma morphs.


Your last sentence is my concern for them Lisa, i'm not hearing good things about the silk back beardies regarding serious health issues i.e dermatological infections etc which are apparently hard to avoid but would be interested to hear from people who have more knowledge about these morphs than myself.


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## purpleskyes

I think they look awful, whats the point in a snake with no scales? I dont like the leatherback beardies either. I think reptiles should have scales just man playing God as usual.:roll: I know morphs are also man made but aside from spider royals and some enigma leopard geckos not all enigmas then generally morphs dont affect the animals health.


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## lisafay

It's all down to personal taste, isn't it?
And most of us like a nice morph selection to choose from , and without it the rep industry woudln't be half what it is - breeders would be out of business etc etc.....
But there are defo more probs associated with morphs than that and we don't really understand all of it yet. For example jaguar carpet pythons carry a neurological problem - and the same prob seems to be responsible for jag to jag breedings, where 25% of the clutch die in the egg. New probs are being revealed all the time, although the vast majority of the time it's fine.
The problem is people will breed snakes with neurological problems for financial gain. This is where the prob needs addressing and ethical issues need to be taken into consideration 
But have to say, i love morphs and just wouldn't be without my albinos and even my jungle-jag! ( I just won't be breeding him back to a jag). If people like the scaleless corns then why not, i think they're pretty nifty


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## peterf

You would be surprised what will survive in the wild.
For example I have a pure white reticulated python which was wild found and I would say around 2 or 4 Years old at the time it was found.
In Indonesia we have had probably 10 adult albino Retics found in the wild over the last 10 years. This is where these lines normally start from-wild found snakes!
In one area we found 6 adult albino blood pythons.
We also received an adult albino Breitsteini some time ago.
These animals do survive and manage to conceal themselves from predators.
I do not see any reason why a scaleless corn would not survive in the wild should one occur. True, it is less protected by horny scales and this may be a disadvantage over rough terrain, but I am sure that the likelhood of predation would be no different to a "normal" corn.


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## Chris Newman

peterf said:


> You would be surprised what will survive in the wild.
> For example I have a pure white reticulated python which was wild found and I would say around 2 or 4 Years old at the time it was found.
> In Indonesia we have had probably 10 adult albino Retics found in the wild over the last 10 years. This is where these lines normally start from-wild found snakes!
> In one area we found 6 adult albino blood pythons.
> We also received an adult albino Breitsteini some time ago.
> These animals do survive and manage to conceal themselves from predators.
> I do not see any reason why a scaleless corn would not survive in the wild should one occur. True, it is less protected by horny scales and this may be a disadvantage over rough terrain, but I am sure that the likelhood of predation would be no different to a "normal" corn.


On that point, many, many years ago we received in a shipment of water snakes from the USA which contained an adult, scales _Nerodia fascia_, very, very similar in appearance to these _guttata_. The snake was adult, so had survived in the wild for a few years at least.


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## naja-naja

there are also scaleless yellow ratsnakes


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## arachnid

*Hamm show*

first time i have been to hamm and it was unbeleivable ive never seen such a variety of reptiles and inverts even on the telly even tho it took 19 hrs driving from devon to get there did anyone else get stuffed at eindhoven with the motorway blocked 
what most supprised me was how cheap the dwas were £90 for a cobra £60 for a rattle snake £30 for a green tree viper and £5 for a black widow while pythons and such were up at £100 
stunning looking poison dart frogs and the pyebold pythons ive never even heard of were lovey things to look at 
im into spiders and wow thousands of them gorgous pookie metalicas cheapest i saw was £100 over here your lucky if you can get your hands on one at all and then pay up to £300 ive been keeping spiders for almost 20yrs and there were some ive never heard of 
i was quit suprised to see how many english were there chances are i spoke to you as i said hello to a many of us as i could i was with spence 74 selling his gekos 
its on again in december but not quite as big the big one is next september take my advice save your £ and get over there i garantee you wont be dissapointed and you wont come home empty handed
fantastic show 
:no1:


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## eco_tonto

Star of the show? The Varanus reisingeri were far more interesting and impressive (in my humble opinion). And they are just as natural selection intended


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## slimeysnail

Arachnid we too got absolutely stuffed when Tomtom Sat Nav would not divert us round the blocked Motorway. It was terrible- we followed the diversion routes, round ina circle and ended up passing the blocked motorway about five times. Tomtom then finally stopped taking us back to that point, and took us two hours back towards Antwerpen the wrong direction... wow it was such a stressful drive. 1800 round trip from Edinburgh. We much preferred the Reptile Expo the next day in Rheda- much more relaxed, and in our opinion, more bargains to be had.. though had a good time (apart from the drive)!


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## blood and guts

While there intresting to see i do worry these will just end up like those scaleless rattles, ie ill and deformed much further then just missing scales.


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## cornmorphs

arachnid said:


> first time i have been to hamm and it was unbeleivable ive never seen such a variety of reptiles and inverts even on the telly even tho it took 19 hrs driving from devon to get there did anyone else get stuffed at eindhoven with the motorway blocked
> what most supprised me was how cheap the dwas were £90 for a cobra £60 for a rattle snake £30 for a green tree viper and £5 for a black widow while pythons and such were up at £100
> stunning looking poison dart frogs and the pyebold pythons ive never even heard of were lovey things to look at
> im into spiders and wow thousands of them gorgous pookie metalicas cheapest i saw was £100 over here your lucky if you can get your hands on one at all and then pay up to £300 ive been keeping spiders for almost 20yrs and there were some ive never heard of
> i was quit suprised to see how many english were there chances are i spoke to you as i said hello to a many of us as i could i was with spence 74 selling his gekos
> its on again in december but not quite as big the big one is next september take my advice save your £ and get over there i garantee you wont be dissapointed and you wont come home empty handed
> fantastic show
> :no1:


 19 hours? did you walk?


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## thorrshamri

cornmorphs said:


> 19 hours? did you walk?


Were you there last Saturday? Didn't see your mug around :mf_dribble:


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## cornmorphs

thorrshamri said:


> Were you there last Saturday? Didn't see your mug around :mf_dribble:


 ah my man, heres the REAL star of the show lol.. 
nah didn make, still spent a fortune.
i'm at houten next month, you gonna make it dude?


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## thorrshamri

cornmorphs said:


> ah my man, heres the REAL star of the show lol..
> nah didn make, still spent a fortune.
> i'm at houten next month, you gonna make it dude?


Nope, I'll wait until December for the next Hamm  Last Saturday i shared a table with someone so I could see every table before everything went crowded :mf_dribble:that's me in the Tribunehalle:


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## cornmorphs

no problem, i probably wont do a hamm show until septembe now..
i'll be sure to call when i need that french holiday... thats if you're ok with lots of kids lol


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## thorrshamri

cornmorphs said:


> no problem, i probably wont do a hamm show until septembe now..
> i'll be sure to call when i need that french holiday... thats if you're ok with lots of kids lol


I'm afraid I won't have room enough where I live :grin1: but if you want to pop in home and see the reps you're welcome dude :2thumb:


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## cornmorphs

thorrshamri said:


> I'm afraid I won't have room enough where I live :grin1: but if you want to pop in home and see the reps you're welcome dude :2thumb:


 lol, aint that many people that do have room for my tribe


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## thorrshamri

cornmorphs said:


> lol, aint that many people that do have room for my tribe


Bring in some of your brightly colored noodles with scales, I'm sure they'd taste great fried or grilled :whistling2::lol2:


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## fishboy

purpleskyes said:


> I think they look awful, whats the point in a snake with no scales? I dont like the leatherback beardies either. I think reptiles should have scales just man playing God as usual.:roll: I know morphs are also man made but aside from spider royals and some enigma leopard geckos not all enigmas then generally morphs dont affect the animals health.



When they come down in price a bit i'm gonna buy one and stick it in a viv next to your uros so you can be disgusted by it over and over :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## cornmorphs

thorrshamri said:


> Bring in some of your brightly colored noodles with scales, I'm sure they'd taste great fried or grilled :whistling2::lol2:


lol, nah, next target will be the ones with no scales.. lot of money tho, way out of my league


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## thorrshamri

cornmorphs said:


> lol, nah, next target will be the ones with no scales.. lot of money tho, way out of my league


Hmmm well whatever the rep species I'm not standing for such mutations at all...


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## arachnid

cornmorphs said:


> 19 hours? did you walk?


 
it would have been quicker if i did walk road works m4 roadworks m25 that made us 3 hrs late for the ferry then frickin eindhoven and like was said back to antwerp then back to eindhoven nightmare but worth it


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## Ssthisto

White_raven666 said:


> A brilliant example of inbreeding. Spose if youre into leatherback beardies and enigma leopard geckos then thisll be your thing too.


Funny you should pick two morphs that inbreeding is *not necessary* and therefore not often practiced.... seeing as they're both codominant/dominant mutations.



Alex M said:


> i'm personally very much against this kind of thing, trying to breed something that would not naturally survive in the wild should it occur.


Quite a few scaleless ratsnakes have been found at *adult* size in the wild.

Thank you, Hogboy, for the great photos of what an adult scaleless looks like - did you grab any photos of the anery scaleless?


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## hogboy

Ssthisto said:


> Funny you should pick two morphs that inbreeding is *not necessary* and therefore not often practiced.... seeing as they're both codominant/dominant mutations.
> 
> 
> Quite a few scaleless ratsnakes have been found at *adult* size in the wild.
> 
> Thank you, Hogboy, for the great photos of what an adult scaleless looks like - did you grab any photos of the anery scaleless?


Sorry i was a bit in awe of the Okee, and totally forgot to get pics of the Anery -(
Looked stunning though, all colours and patterns exaggerated.


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## ophidianman

slimeysnail said:


> Arachnid we too got absolutely stuffed when Tomtom Sat Nav would not divert us round the blocked Motorway. It was terrible- we followed the diversion routes, round ina circle and ended up passing the blocked motorway about five times. Tomtom then finally stopped taking us back to that point, and took us two hours back towards Antwerpen the wrong direction... wow it was such a stressful drive. 1800 round trip from Edinburgh. We much preferred the Reptile Expo the next day in Rheda- much more relaxed, and in our opinion, more bargains to be had.. though had a good time (apart from the drive)!


The moral of this story is never ever rely totally on the Sat Nav. We always have a good assortment of road maps and a Europe Atlas to consult as well. Sat navs can get it wrong and lie (as you have discovered). Mind you I do enjoy arguing and shouting abuse at Sat Navs!!


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