# Centre nearly ready to open



## National Reptile Rescue (Apr 9, 2010)

After 12 months of planning and searching for premises National Reptile Rescue has a home. : victory:: victory:: victory:
We got the keys yesterday and now just need to tidy and kit out the centre.

_How can you help?_

If you have any equipment, bowls, vivs, lights etc you no longer require maybe you could donate them to us.

For our official opening day we have arranged a couple of surprises . . . more details as we get them.
:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


----------



## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

National Reptile Rescue said:


> For our official opening day we have arranged a couple of surprises . . . more details as we get them.
> :2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


Are you planning on being open to the public every day?


----------



## National Reptile Rescue (Apr 9, 2010)

Natrix said:


> Are you planning on being open to the public every day?


Our plan is to be open 7 days a week with only a few exceptions during the year


----------



## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Nice one. 
How hard was it to get your zoo licence sorted out and how much did they charge you for it?

Natrix


----------



## National Reptile Rescue (Apr 9, 2010)

Natrix said:


> Nice one.
> How hard was it to get your zoo licence sorted out and how much did they charge you for it?
> 
> Natrix


Local Authority have only insisted on a Pet Shop Licence due to technicalities of eggs hatching the resulting babies would not be classified as rescued


----------



## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

But you will be displaying animals that are not usually considered domestic to the general public. That means that you will need a zoo licence.

While your local council may be happy with you having a pet shop licence now, you are not a pet shop and things will change very quickly if you and they come under attack from the animal rights groups that are against what you are trying to do.

Check out News there are lots of other cases as well if you search the web.

Natrix


----------



## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Two bits on another case. You got to love the innocence of the Born Free Foundation.
BBC - Bird sanctuary in Rochdale forced to close in zoo row

Three Owls Bird Sanctuary: Born Free Foundation

Andrew Meads take on the situation

Animal welfare is so important - Northants ET

Natrix


----------



## National Reptile Rescue (Apr 9, 2010)

Hmm so what you are saying is that the reptile shops all over the UK are going to be closed as they are selling animals that arn't pets

Tortoises require a licenses under Defra regulations

Bearded Dragons, Geckos, Corn Snakes and Royal Pythons do not


----------



## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

National Reptile Rescue said:


> Hmm so what you are saying is that the reptile shops all over the UK are going to be closed as they are selling animals that arn't pets
> 
> Tortoises require a licenses under Defra regulations
> 
> Bearded Dragons, Geckos, Corn Snakes and Royal Pythons do not


No, what I am saying is that animal sanctuaries aren't pet shops and so don't come under a pet shop licence. 

I'm also saying that reptiles aren't considered domestic pets so if you are going to be displaying them as a sanctuary to the public for more than seven days in a one year period you will attract the attention of certain, so called, animal welfare groups and at that point your local council will be talking about a zoo licence to you.

Natrix


----------



## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

National Reptile Rescue said:


> Hmm so what you are saying is that the reptile shops all over the UK are going to be closed as they are selling animals that arn't pets
> 
> *Tortoises require a licenses under Defra regulations*
> 
> Bearded Dragons, Geckos, Corn Snakes and Royal Pythons do not


Correct, that's an article 10 under CITIES Regulations. I'm not talking about an article 10, I'm talking about a zoo licence.

Natrix


----------



## National Reptile Rescue (Apr 9, 2010)

If we were a sanctuary we would need a zoo licence but the reptiles that come into us are then rehomed. Our local authority have worked with us every step of the way and even had the legal team involved.

So what you are saying if I opened a shop and sold the reptile surrendered to me then that would be OK!


----------



## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

National Reptile Rescue said:


> If we were a sanctuary we would need a zoo licence but the reptiles that come into us are then rehomed. Our local authority have worked with us every step of the way and even had the legal team involved.
> 
> So what you are saying if I opened a shop and sold the reptile surrendered to me then that would be OK!


From the Born free web site

_Since the introduction of the Zoo Licensing Act which came into force in 1984 and the subsequent Zoos Directive in 1999 which came into force in 2002, Born Free, has been consistently trying to get local authorities who are the responsible Licensing Authorities for establishments that display captive wild animals to the public, to ensure that all appropriate facilities that meet the criteria as set out in the legislation are licensed as zoos or officially exempted from the requirements of the Act. _

From the zoo licencing act http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts/ukpga/1981/cukpga_19810037_en_5

_1 Licensing of zoos by local authorities_
_(1)Subject to this section it is unlawful to operate a zoo to which this Act applies except under the authority of a licence issued under this Act by the local authority for the area within which the whole or the major part of the zoo is situated._
_(2)In this Act “zoo” means an establishment where wild animals (as defined by section 21) are kept for exhibition to the public otherwise than for purposes of a circus (as so defined) and otherwise than in a pet shop (as so defined)_

So are you a pet shop or a rescue sanctuary? 
Are you selling reptiles or displaying non domestic/wild animals to the public?

I'm not having a go at what your trying to do, I'm trying to point out to you that a pet shop licence is very unlikely to cover you if the Antis start pushing the council.
The sanctuaries in the links I posted all thought they was fine until they were suddenly required to get a zoo licence. You need to clarify this with your council and if possible get an exemption certificate in place before the antis start talking to them.

Natrix


----------



## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

National Reptile Rescue said:


> If we were a sanctuary we would need a zoo licence but the reptiles that come into us are then rehomed. Our local authority have worked with us every step of the way and even had the legal team involved.
> 
> So what you are saying if I opened a shop and sold the reptile surrendered to me then that would be OK!


Hoping another opinion might help here.

Basically the law states that 
'Section 1 makes clear that all zoos that are open to the public, with or without charge on seven or more days in a twelve-month period need a licence from their local authority to operate. A zoo is defined as any establishment where animals of wild species are exhibited to the public. Circuses and pet shops are excluded from this definition (see paragraph 5
below). Local authorities in England are District, Unitary, Metropolitan, City of London and London Borough councils.'

http://www.biaza.org.uk/resources/library/images/ZLA CIrcular.pdf

I think what Natrix is getting at is because you are planning on opening the rescue up to people beyond 7 days a year you would fall under a zoo license. This has stung numerous rescue centres of late as Natrix has linked, resulting in them having to close. Im not saying your council is wrong but im sure its in your benefit to let them know about this so they can cover every base.

All the best with it, i can totally understand why you'd want people to see the good work you do but current legislation makes this kind of thing relatively difficult.


----------



## blood and guts (May 30, 2007)

It would not be the first time a council has got some thing wrong either, and sadly it wont be the last. Natrix is spot on with what he has been saying to you and is only doing so to help you avoid big problems down the road.


----------



## National Reptile Rescue (Apr 9, 2010)

OK the latest info from the councils legal team is 

As there is an element of a technical sale the exchange of money to the centre in order to rehome a reptile then this makes us a Shop even though we are a not for profit organisation.

We have been further advised that any animal rescue service that does not have a Pet Shop License and accepts a "donation" to the centre when an animal is rehomed is potentially breaking the law under pet shop licensing (as this is a technical sale), therefore they require a license regardless of if the animal is rehomed from a private or business address. In addition appropriate planning (A1 consent) must be sought from the local authorities planning department.

The retail activities are there to provide funding for our rescue service, staff, vet fees, and other operational costs, just like the Dogs Trust, RSPCA etc...

Therefore although we are a rescue centre we are classified as a pet shop

I hope this clarifies the status of our Rescue Centre.


----------



## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

NRR is not a registered charity I assume, and will be generally only allowing animals to leave the premises once a "donation" is paid". That would seem to come under pet shop licensing requirements to me. I assume there will be no admission fee ?

Is it the policy to NEVER sell bought in animals ?

Are the owners of the NRR going to get a "wage" or any other financial benefit from the sales in the shop ? 

What does not for profit mean ?


----------



## Tempestas (Nov 25, 2009)

Natrix said:


> From the Born free web site
> 
> _Since the introduction of the Zoo Licensing Act which came into force in 1984 and the subsequent Zoos Directive in 1999 which came into force in 2002, Born Free, has been consistently trying to get local authorities who are the responsible Licensing Authorities for establishments that display captive wild animals to the public, to ensure that all appropriate facilities that meet the criteria as set out in the legislation are licensed as zoos or officially exempted from the requirements of the Act. _
> 
> ...


Agreed with the above,

But can I just add if you are a "Rescue" and you are planning eggs from the animals then you are breeding the rescues which in my opinion is wrong ! 

Just seems like another "Rescue" using the words "Rescue" as a front for free animals ! I find it a bit strange that your a new member with limited amount of posts but your setting up a "Rescue" if your doing it for the right reasons then fair play to you for doing so. 

But I would seriously listen and take note to what Natrix is telling you he knows what he's talking about.


----------



## National Reptile Rescue (Apr 9, 2010)

Tempestas said:


> Agreed with the above,
> 
> But can I just add if you are a "Rescue" and you are planning eggs from the animals then you are breeding the rescues which in my opinion is wrong !
> 
> ...


I decided to open this centre as a result of people bringing reptiles to me.

From the NEGATIVITY I dont know why I dont just open a traditional shop and charge full prices for rescues like many shops do. You know nothing about the 5 years I have owned reptiles or the 30+ I personally have.

We dont want to rescue any reptiles the sad fact is more are being dumped as they are more available like more traditional pets. I dont believe that throwing away viable eggs form a female that has come in is right.

So it seems to me that I am going to be bullied and pushed into opening a traditional Reptile shop, something I did not want to do but then people on the forum appear to be against those wanting to do good.



Tempestas said:


> Just seems like another "Rescue" using the words "Rescue" as a front for free animals


AS FOR FREE

We collected a Leopard Gecko from Southampton last year rehome fee was £10 our fuel cost was over £60. So the profit from this was -£50 not counting the food, heat etc for the 4 weeks he was with us.


----------



## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

National Reptile Rescue said:


> I decided to open this centre as a result of people bringing reptiles to me.
> 
> From the NEGATIVITY I dont know why I dont just open a traditional shop and charge full prices for rescues like many shops do. You know nothing about the 5 years I have owned reptiles or the 30+ I personally have.
> 
> ...


Just ignore them, some folks are too paranoid, you guys think even charities just work for nothing? It's literally not possible without donations, that's either charging people to look at animals, charging a donation if people want to adopt animals, possibly letting people sponser an animal etc, unless OP comes across millions of pounds to whittle away, they need some sort of income or supplementary income. Zoos have adopt an animal and their massive zoos with varies sources of revenue, if they have too, a person setting up a rescue certainly does, you think the government is going to hand OP £100,000 a year to build a nice reptile sanctuary? 


Get real ffs...

As for "selling" offspring. If a rescued animal is gravid there's nothing wrong with him keeping viable eggs and caring for the offspring and hopefully giving them a home at some point, with a donation paid. Breeding is a bit different, though to be fair Zoos and rescue centres do often breed, to sell offspring to other centres, to keep the animals in the rescue(old ones die etc).


----------



## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

I have to assume NRR since you haven't answered my questions that this is in fact a pet shop, but potentially with a more ethical stance than most.

How many of the animals are going to be rehomed ? If non/few then you will fill up very quickly. If you sell most/all of them then legally you are a pet shop

If you are taking a wage (the profits from sales in the shop) then I can't see how this is a not for profit organisation. 

I hope you have, or are ready to register for income tax and national insurance contributions. You will need to.

Why does a leopard gecko need to be "rescued" ? Surely it must be easy to rehome locally ?

When I managed a reptile shop I sometimes took in animals with problems and helped to rehome them with customers I knew would take them and give them a good home, without money passing hands. Its good business, that customer ended up buying an extra tub of crickets in the future !


----------



## National Reptile Rescue (Apr 9, 2010)

Blaptica said:


> I have to assume NRR since you haven't answered my questions that this is in fact a pet shop, but potentially with a more ethical stance than most.
> 
> How many of the animals are going to be rehomed ? If non/few then you will fill up very quickly. If you sell most/all of them then legally you are a pet shop
> 
> ...


I spend little time on this forum and answering questions from someone who is not even in the same country seems very odd.

The intention is to rehome as many animals as possible even centres who accept a rehoming fee or donation to their centre are legally selling the animals.

Wages for me come from other work. Although I don’t see why that’s a concern of yours. And yes all relevant legal and financial organisations have been advised.

As for the leopard gecko we were contacted and like many rescue centres went to its aid, not knowing its condition, this is why our aim is to link rescue centres together to prevent stress to the animal and unnecessary journeys. As previously stated our aim is to link rescue centres together and so give those who need these services the details of their local rescue/rehoming centre.

A rehoming fee is charged to prevent people wanting a free pet that then ends up being rehomed again, are you saying ALL rescued animals should be given away for free.

All that said I like the status you are giving this venture as an ethical pet shop (me thinks it would be far better to go down that track and make a living from this!) But that’s not what it’s about the animals come first.


----------



## Tempestas (Nov 25, 2009)

National Reptile Rescue said:


> I decided to open this centre as a result of people bringing reptiles to me.
> 
> From the NEGATIVITY I dont know why I dont just open a traditional shop and charge full prices for rescues like many shops do. You know nothing about the 5 years I have owned reptiles or the 30+ I personally have.
> 
> ...


We do not know you like I said previously you have limited posts and setting a rescue up, You also used the words "Sell" therefore you are not rehoming you are selling ! is that black and white enough for you ? 

So you don't believe in destroying eggs so if you have an adult female burmese python who's gravid who dropped X amount of eggs you would prefer to incubate them and put more unwanted burmese pythons into the world so basically what you are doing is contradicting yourself ! 

You have owned reptiles 5 years I have owned them for much longer than most on this forum I have seen the hobby come from such a small community into this and yes I do understand how it works. With any animal there will always be unwanted and dumped ones. No one is bullying you into anything its just what our opinions are you know that saying "Freedom of Speech ! " 

So you collected a Leopard gecko from Southampton and got a loss well welcome to the world of rescues any rescue or organisation which makes a profit must be doing something dodgy, Look at the RSPCA for instance they have a large organisation but most of the money donated to them goes straight to head office to make that look nice most of it doesn't even get to the small offices. But we all know what the RSCPA is like don't we, So before you start getting your knickers in a twist actually listen to what's being said and the advice being given or are you another one of these text book keepers who actually don't know what they are on about and only have experience with limited animals.

I wish you luck with your rescue but with the attitude your giving you will not get very far !



joeyboy said:


> Just ignore them, some folks are too paranoid, you guys think even charities just work for nothing? It's literally not possible without donations, that's either charging people to look at animals, charging a donation if people want to adopt animals, possibly letting people sponser an animal etc, unless OP comes across millions of pounds to whittle away, they need some sort of income or supplementary income. Zoos have adopt an animal and their massive zoos with varies sources of revenue, if they have too, a person setting up a rescue certainly does, you think the government is going to hand OP £100,000 a year to build a nice reptile sanctuary?
> 
> 
> Get real ffs...
> ...


How about you get real !

It's nothing to do with being paranoid at all, I have seen numerous rescues who claim to be the real deal but infact are just collecting stock for their own breeding! Plus not to mention the fact that selling offspring which came in through a rescue is in my opinion ( Yes I am allowed one ) immoral. 

There is a large amount of Burmese pythons, Iguanas, Retics, Boas, ETC which are all looking for homes the market is over inflated with corns, beardeds, leos, ETC so breeding those is acceptable and keeping eggs from rescues instead of popping them in the freezer is right ? Making more reptiles to fill a void that would be great if that void was actually there and THE MARKET DIDN'T HAVE X AMOUNT BEING PRODUCED already. Or would you rather see bearded dragons drop even lower in price to £7.50 each then they WILL be seen as disposable pets ! 

I am one for breeding but breeding from rescues is wrong they are RESCUES sometimes they are in perfect health other times they are in the worst state but still a rescue should not breed from animals which they have been given if the rescue as a collection already with their own animals which aren't rescues then fair enough if they want to breed then let them but think about it first ! it's not exactly rocket science is it !

But to me it defeats the object of the idea if a rescue is breeding from rescues !


----------



## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

how can you have the license when you have not yet set up the place am 99% right in thinking you have to set up the place then they inspect before the license is granted


----------



## National Reptile Rescue (Apr 9, 2010)

adamntitch said:


> how can you have the license when you have not yet set up the place am 99% right in thinking you have to set up the place then they inspect before the license is granted


You are right but I have not claimed to have one in place we are currently awaiting inspection from our local authority.


----------



## National Reptile Rescue (Apr 9, 2010)

Tempestas said:


> We do not know you like I said previously you have limited posts and setting a rescue up


I only have limited posts as I don’t spend much time online my own reptiles and outside work keep me busy enough. I was told not to get involved with the forum but decided to anyway the amount of people who have true knowledge will I believe outweigh the downside.



Tempestas said:


> I wish you luck with your rescue but with the attitude your giving you will not get very far!


I thank you for your good wishes. My attitude is possibly due to my passion for what I am trying to do.


*I would like to thank Natrix* 

The info supplied allowed not only myself but our local council to find the legal status for the rescue centre.


----------



## snickers (Aug 15, 2007)

> selling offspring which came in through a rescue is in my opinion ( Yes I
> am allowed one ) immoral

We all have opinions, and the right to express them

If someone wants rid of an animal and a rescue is willing to take the animal on and hopefully sell it on what's the problem. Unless of course you think that making a profit is inherently bad? If you think making a profit is bad you are living on the wrong planet.

Good luck with the rescue.


----------



## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

Please see the writing in blue from me below.



National Reptile Rescue said:


> I spend little time on this forum and answering questions from someone who is not even in the same country seems very odd. Yes I am not in the Uk right this second. But I do myself rent a property from the local council. I dealt with the original lease from the council and subsequent renewals. I have had a reptile shop for over 8 years. I deal with pet shop licensesing issues. I deal with payroll matters, vat /tax returns. All the fun stuff you are going to soon have to deal with. You might want to take a little advise here.
> 
> The intention is to rehome as many animals as possible even centres who accept a rehoming fee or donation to their centre are legally selling the animals.
> 
> ...


You have to remember that there have unfortunately been too many people here on this forum and others, claiming to be setting up rehoming centres only to be found selling them off on the sly, when they claimed they were going to be giving them a home for life !

If you you intend to sell ANY animals you buy in, or any hatched reptiles from rescues at this centre, please DON'T call yourself National Reptile Rescue.  To do so would be very cheeky in my view, and would annoy alot of people. It could be a PR disaster for this hobby/trade. 

I am not clear from what you have said exactly what you plan to do. I am not sure if you are sure yourself. Maybe this is a time to do some careful thinking before you go any further ?


----------



## Tempestas (Nov 25, 2009)

National Reptile Rescue said:


> I only have limited posts as I don’t spend much time online my own reptiles and outside work keep me busy enough. I was told not to get involved with the forum but decided to anyway the amount of people who have true knowledge will I believe outweigh the downside.
> 
> I thank you for your good wishes. My attitude is possibly due to my passion for what I am trying to do.


I would say due to you only joining in April this year would be one of the reasons to the low post count, I understand that you have your own reptiles and outside work keeping you busy but most users on here have exactly the same as you but are still able to post regular. Can I just ask what experience do you have with reptiles ? What I'm saying is what species have you already worked with and cared for. 

I have a extremely high passion for the hobby always have and always will hence the reason for all the questions to you regarding your Rescue theres been so many people not just on the forum but country wide setting up "Rescues" when infact they are selling them under a different name. I have been contemplating starting a rescue myself because I do take on reptiles already from those which can't care for them but these are kept seperately from my own collection, I am also contemplating kitting out a room just for the rescue side. I have a tortoise up for adoption at the moment with no rehome fee just a donation of the adoptee's choice.



snickers said:


> > selling offspring which came in through a rescue is in my opinion ( Yes I
> > am allowed one ) immoral
> 
> We all have opinions, and the right to express them
> ...


I think someone got the wrong end of the stick here ( Again ) I do not think making profit is bad but making profit from rescue animals I do believe is bad ! Most if not all people who see rescues automatically compare them to the RSPCA who are a organisation who DO make a profit so in actual fact are they a rescue or are they a business ?




Blaptica said:


> Please see the writing in blue from me below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What he said


----------



## SIDVICIOUS (Oct 4, 2008)

The problem is NRR have built up a breeding colony of reptiles and then offering them for rehoming when basically they should never have been brought into this world. Surely genune rescues know of the problems with such problem animals (such as beardies for example) and they wouldn't breed from them?


----------



## bampoisongirl (Mar 28, 2008)

Just a side thought, if they local authority have classed it as this and he has all the legalities sorted, then surely it won't be such a problem if the antis start on him? It can't be that wrong if he has legally been classed as having a PSL?

EDIT also where are you based?


----------



## spencerwells (Oct 8, 2007)

bam, im sure i read a thread by this guy...possibly in classifieds, where he was being badly slated by a member or two (whom i wont name here, but if you want to know, pm me) and in the end he said he was just going to give it all up as he was sick of being slagged off.


----------

