# Roach Layer Pellets



## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

So I have been running my roach farm for a year now and for the first 3-4 months I had been feeding a chow mix of low high quality dog food mixed with some rabbit pellets and oats. Along with this I used to feed fresh fruits and vegetables such as apples, carrots, lettuce, zucchini, cucumber..etc

Then I started reading on the controversy of dog food mixed chows and how it can be damaging to reptiles due to the high probability of uric acid sacs.

After reading this I did not want to take any chances so I just stuck with vegetable matter for the rest of the 8months.

During those 8-months I had read that a lot of people use layer mash/pellets to feed to their roaches as dry food.

A week ago I decided to give it a go and after reading on how other people's roach farms quickly took to this, amazingly, mine did not even touch the stuff. They just eat the vegetables and leave it there.

I have tried both soggy layer pellets and completely dry layer pellets (crushed) and no results. They do not even touch the stuff.

I've tried the dog food/oats mix again and they absolutely love that stuff and was gone within a night.

This is a huge concern as I am thinking of expanding my roach farm to about 6 more tubs but vegetables would cost me dear in the long run. I was hoping that the pellets would work considering the success a lot of people have had with it.

Am I doing something wrong or preparing it the wrong way? What pellets do you use? Layers? Pullet mash? Rabbit pellets? What mix ratio do you use and how does one go about preparing it?

Urgent advice and help is needed please. This farmer is struggling.


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## jonodrama (May 7, 2009)

I use layers mash, haven't use cat food for over 2years. Bought pellets instead once and the roaches mostly ignored them.
So I'd try mash with some added vitamin powder. Good job on using a good range of fresh food.

PS. I visit Malta twice a year working for birdlife.


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## ExoticInsectsUK (Nov 15, 2008)

As I have said many times chicken food is no roach chow.
I have 100s of thousands of roaches now and over 10 types of roaches non of mine eat chicken feed! (its for chickens:lol2
The only people that say use chicken feed is people with 1 tub of roaches or none.
People that have many roach colonies use a mixed diet. A well mixed roach chow and fresh fruit and veg. 
It costs more for the right dry roach mix and a hell of a lot for fresh fruit and veg but they eat it and are happier. More important they grow better:2thumb:


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

ExoticInsectsUK said:


> As I have said many times chicken food is no roach chow.
> I have 100s of thousands of roaches now and over 10 types of roaches non of mine eat chicken feed! (its for chickens:lol2
> The only people that say use chicken feed is people with 1 tub of roaches or none.
> People that have many roach colonies use a mixed diet. A well mixed roach chow and fresh fruit and veg.
> It costs more for the right dry roach mix and a hell of a lot for fresh fruit and veg but they eat it and are happier. More important they grow better:2thumb:


Chicken mash and pellets has been proven to be a more accurate feeding stuff in relation to their natural food source than any dog chow mix. If I can I will avoid it.

Care to shed some light on what chow mix you use?



Jonodrama said:


> I use layers mash, haven't use cat food for over 2years. Bought pellets instead once and the roaches mostly ignored them.
> So I'd try mash with some added vitamin powder. Good job on using a good range of fresh food.
> 
> PS. I visit Malta twice a year working for birdlife.


Isn't layers mash the same as pellets except crushed? I was thinking of using the pullet mash formula, maybe they would take to that a lot better.

I am with BirdLife as well  I was on RaptorCamp last year. Right now we are trying to get a referrendum going on to stop Spring Hunting. It's not going so well.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Mine thrive on chicken mash and vegetables/ fruit. They are very productive. From just one box I harvested over 20 kilos of roaches last year. Yes i did weigh them and kept careful records.

Chicken pellets will not be eaten. They are too hard. You need 'mash' the powder, or to wet the food. If you have a small colony, you have to feed very small quatities of this wet food daily, or use it dry. You need to dispose of wet leftovers after 24 hours. Quickly you will know how much to feed. I never have to throw wet mash away.

I don't sell any food mix for roaches. I am not promoting anything. ExoticinsectsUk does however sell a very expensive mix. I believe from what I saw on the website that the way he describes his mix is very misleading. It may even be described in an illegal way. I asked questions before about this, and he chose not to answer.


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Dragon Farm said:


> Mine thrive on chicken mash and vegetables/ fruit. They are very productive. From just one box I harvested over 20 kilos of roaches last year. Yes i did weigh them and kept careful records.
> 
> Chicken pellets will not be eaten. They are too hard. You need 'mash' the powder, or to wet the food. If you have a small colony, you have to feed very small quatities of this wet food daily, or use it dry. You need to dispose of wet leftovers after 24 hours. Quickly you will know how much to feed. I never have to throw wet mash away.
> 
> I don't sell any food mix for roaches. I am not promoting anything. ExoticinsectsUk does however sell a very expensive mix. I believe from what I saw on the website that the way he describes his mix is very misleading. It may even be described in an illegal way. I asked questions before about this, and he chose not to answer.


Yeah I wasn't going to trust what he says even if he did give a precise answer on to what he feeds. His mindset is on business while mine is on health. My catering is not very extent however the little that I am able to produce I want it to be grown on a specific and healthy diet. At least with minimum damage.

What I am feeding is crushed and not pellet form. On that I am well aware that they will not consume the pelleted form. I gave such information only to be precise on what type of feed I am using.

I have tried wetting the food and they gave no interested towards it after 2 days. It stank quickly as well. Some roaches did feast on it, out the 500 babies 200nymphs and 50 adults only a small portion of about 10 gave interested and they did not eat very much of it either.

I have tried serving it bone dry, crushed to a very fine powder and still, no interested after 2 days. I have left the feed in there maybe they will eventually eat it, since it's dry it should not mold very fast so I can afford to leave it for an extended period of time.

I have a couple of ideas on what feeding mixes to use. I was thinking of mixing it with oats. If not I'll try just rabbit pellets and chick crumbs/pullet feed. I'll try to mix those with oats as well although the fiber content might be too high.


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## ExoticInsectsUK (Nov 15, 2008)

Pyrite said:


> Chicken mash and pellets has been proven to be a more accurate feeding stuff in relation to their natural food source than any dog chow mix. If I can I will avoid it.
> 
> Care to shed some light on what chow mix you use?
> 
> ...


No that's made up! only Dragon Farm has said that:bash: Chicken mash and pellets has not been proven to be a more accurate feeding stuff in relation to their natural food source. My roaches don't eat grit:lol2:
When Repashy was making Bug Burger (£10.49 for a 84g tub, only 566 grams when made) they said all roach chows are bad buy our product to make your reptiles healthier or feed fruit and veg.
It would cost me about £50-£100 a day using there brand so not a option for me, but for someone that only has a small colony it wont cost them as much.
I use about £20 worth of fruit and veg a day as its 60%-80% of there diet, and my roaches love it.
I use DRY roach mixes because they help them grow and have a track record going back years. Roaches also need dry foods and should get most of there wet foods from fruit and veg.
If you starve your roaches they will eat anything wet for the moisture.
The roach mixes I use are different for different roaches.
Hissers need protein otherwise the start to eat each other in molts.
so you cant judge all roaches by that test as I believe it was only dubia they tested on.




Dragon Farm said:


> Mine thrive on chicken mash and vegetables/ fruit. They are very productive. From just one box I harvested over 20 kilos of roaches last year. Yes i did weigh them and kept careful records.
> 
> I don't sell any food mix for roaches. I am not promoting anything..


My website has been offline for about 4 weeks now as its being updated so you cant buy any chow from me. We sell no illegal products on our website or to any shops. 
You are promoting your self :bash: You sell the reptiles you breed, so yes you do sell your own products.

As you have said you feed wet chicken food to your roaches, Why?
If you fed them fruit and veg there would be no need to feed anymore wet food to your roaches. 
Too much wet food will make your roaches ill. In the wild roaches don't eat 100% wet food, and they don't eat grit:bash:




Pyrite said:


> Yeah I wasn't going to trust what he says even if he did give a precise answer on to what he feeds. His mindset is on business while mine is on health. My catering is not very extent however the little that I am able to produce I want it to be grown on a specific and healthy diet. At least with minimum damage.
> 
> What I am feeding is crushed and not pellet form. On that I am well aware that they will not consume the pelleted form. I gave such information only to be precise on what type of feed I am using.
> 
> ...


Don't trust what I say and don't have many roaches as they will starve. Im only trying to help you. try asking the same question on any cockroach forum and even the admins would agree with what im saying.
Im not trying to sell you any roach chow you can make your own there are lots of recipes online. Do a bit of research and talk to any successful roach breeders.
You would be better to use a rabbit/hamster mix & start your mix from there, I never said a roach mix needs to have dog or cat food.
I could sell chicken mash cheaper then most people as my family have run a poultry farm for decades. I wish my roaches would eat and grow on chicken food because it would save me a lot of cash but no they don't.

Its best to feed a well mixed diet not just smelly wet chicken mash.
It may be cheap but its not going to work, no matter how many times dragonfarm says to use it:lol2:

I only started breeding roaches because I have so many reptiles and im not a big company with people working for me. Its just me, so I make sure that my reptiles and livefoods are as healthy as can be. when everyones Morios died due to a virus mine were in great health and I did sell a few tubs to help a few people out but I kept most for my reptiles. So its not just business I don't think it could be breeding your own livestock are caring for them. if it was then I would just have a online dry foods website.
I don't know any breeder that makes a load of cash breeding (apart from royal breeders) Its a labor of love.


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## SublimeSparo (May 1, 2013)

for my dubias, i've been using prorep buggrub, mixed with some old Repashy crested gecko diet, they seem to munch a fair bit of that down alongside their fresh fruit and veg, and as far as i can tell they are thriving  not sure how ecomoical it would be on larger scales, maybe using a rabbit/hamster mix and adding it to that would work out better


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Exotic insects has made one good point in my view, and that is I am probably wasting my time writing on this forum. Anybody reading what I say is welcome to do whatever they want. 

In terms of promotion, how exactly do I sell lizards to any private individuals, well to anybody outside of Portugal ? I reality it is extremely difficult, it rarely happens. The vast majority of my stock goes to wholesales in large quantities, not to hobbyists. I have nothing to gain in promoting how I breed my roaches ! In fact to be honest, I am not helping myself by helping others. 

Pyrite, you think exotic insects UK is not promoting himself, or his products ? You think he isn't a business ? Have I ever tried to sell anything to you ? Did I reply to your PM's trying to help you ? Please have a think about that. 

Whatever else I said Exotic insects Uk, I did not call you stupid. Resorting to unpleasant insults is not smart.


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

I am not going to pick any sides and all this petty arguing is wasting my time. I am not gaining any insight on the matter of roach chow. 

With the constant controversy of which is good and which is bad is making this situation even more difficult which quite frankly I do not need.

I just want a dry mix which actually works, is able to sustain the roaches with enough protein and calcium without leading to excess uric sacs as I do not want to be the person who damages other people's pets.

Yes DragonFarm you have replied and helped me the best to your ability and I am very appreciative of the fact and any information you have provided for me as well any information anyone on this forum has tried to help to the best of their abilities.

I guess it was pretty useless coming here and asking. At least I tried but looks like I am on this one on my own.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Ive been trying diffrent mixes with my Dubias, the only mix they will eat so far is a mix of Oats (45%), Dried Fruit (10%) and Dried Cat food (45%) (IAM's Proactive Health Adult, to be exact, no synthetic taurine added), the cat food is ground up to a powder, then mixed with the crushed dried fruit and oats.

Cat food is damn expensive for feeding roaches, but my colony isnt huge, so it'll do in the mean time while I try and find a better diet....no one is willing to give up their recipes, so its trial and error.

the IAM's stuff only has chicken and turkey as a source of tourine, rather than having synthetic stuff added in

anyway my colony loves it and is breeding like crazy, they get some fruit and veg, they like cucumber, carrots and oranges, and thats all they will eat, tried almost everything else i could think of and they didnt touch it, they also have access to water crystals.


not recomending this diet at all, just saying what works for me after many months of trial and error, i know how hard it is to get a straight answer out of roach breeders! they only want us to buy there roaches :Na_Na_Na_Na: ....but i'd need to be a millionaire to feed my monitor on bought roaches lol


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

CloudForest said:


> Ive been trying diffrent mixes with my Dubias, the only mix they will eat so far is a mix of Oats (45%), Dried Fruit (10%) and Dried Cat food (45%) (IAM's Proactive Health Adult, to be exact, no synthetic taurine added), the cat food is ground up to a powder, then mixed with the crushed dried fruit and oats.
> 
> Cat food is damn expensive for feeding roaches, but my colony isnt huge, so it'll do in the mean time while I try and find a better diet....no one is willing to give up their recipes, so its trial and error.
> 
> ...


Thank you for 2cents in the matter  

By looks of it it is as you say. Trial and error.
I am not looking to become a big time business. Mostly I just want ideas or some advice due to an experimentation I am concocting for an assignment brief as well as cater to little clientele in my country in hopes to raise some funds for online courses in Agriculture and Animal Care so that one day I'll have enough experience and knowledge to apply for a job that will save me from this country.

I'll draw up a list of what can work, grind the mixes up and experiment on what works and what doesn't.


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## ZOO CENTRE (Apr 1, 2010)

Hi,
sorry but there no matter if it is dog food,cat food,fish food,chicken layer pellets.... etc.,there is important what is 'inside'- what nutritional value has the food.:2thumb:

Cat food or dog food or chicken pellet- there are many types different foods- from cheap 'shits' to expensive 'excellent' foods.

I use own mix and have healthy good roaches..

As I said here in other thread and on other forums I do not agree with Repashy burger.....
I keep more than 100 species of roaches with many succeses and many feeder roach species I breed differently than other breeders......:lol2:


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## mr stroudy (Mar 11, 2008)

i use an un gritted layers mash seems to work well for me, if you did buy a gritted one i wouldn't worry to much as i very much doubt a roach would eat it any way, as the grit would be to big for them.

i am no expert but i kept and bred chickens for awhile. what i do know is that a chicken needs grit to break down there food and therefore the grit needs to be a suitable size to do so, so i would be surprised if a roach could eat this.

but after reading this and to be safe i will only feed the feeder tub with fresh fruit and veg and the breeders will stay on chicken mash.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Yes you are right, crickets can digest the grit, and insects cannot. My feeder dishes have small amounts of oyster shell left after the have consumed the cereal/soya mix. Insects do not need calcium, they do not have a skeleton.


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## jamesfox (Apr 24, 2007)

They have a shell so would have thought need some calcium ?

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

I believe the shell is keratin, like finger nails or hair. I think it contains very little calcium if any.


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## ZOO CENTRE (Apr 1, 2010)

Dragon Farm said:


> I believe the shell is keratin, like finger nails or hair. I think it contains very little calcium if any.


The exoskeleton is from chitin. :2thumb:

Chitin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

the insects dont need the calcium, but it is still useful to add, at least for gut loading


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Yes sorry it is of course chitin, but I think it is similar. 

What calcium are you talking about in the gutload ? I think alot of the calcium in some 'gutloads' is not in fact eaten. Plus if you are dusting the insect, do you need it inside the insect ?


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

ZOO CENTRE said:


> Hi,
> sorry but there no matter if it is dog food,cat food,fish food,chicken layer pellets.... etc.,there is important what is 'inside'- what nutritional value has the food.:2thumb:
> 
> Cat food or dog food or chicken pellet- there are many types different foods- from cheap 'shits' to expensive 'excellent' foods.
> ...


What I aim for is to feed my roaches, along with fresh fruits and vegetables, a vegetative dry feed stuff. As far as I know people have had numerous success with different type of chicken/rabbit feed as it is made up of vegetable matter.

I try to take things from common sense. What you feed your roaches will go inside your reptile. The roaches have small bodies and do not require such a high protein diets as this will lead to excess uric acids which will eventually lead to gout.

I'd much prefer to feed my roaches something which is a little bit more natural. I believe chicken/rabbit feed has enough protein to sustain the requirements of the roach.

I'm still in experimentation with feed stuff but this the result I want. I am against cereals and dog/cat food based diets. I really do not think it is necessary and posses more negative effects than good.

Yes, most probably cereal and dog/cat fod based diets will lead to faster reproduction but it isn't healthy, at least in my opinion. I am no expert but this is what makes sense to me.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Pyrite said:


> What I aim for is to feed my roaches, along with fresh fruits and vegetables, a vegetative dry feed stuff. As far as I know people have had numerous success with different type of chicken/rabbit feed as it is made up of vegetable matter.
> 
> I try to take things from common sense. What you feed your roaches will go inside your reptile. The roaches have small bodies and do not require such a high protein diets as this will lead to excess uric acids which will eventually lead to gout.
> 
> ...


how long does Uric acid stay in the roach? if they are switched to a vegetable diet for some time before feeding off (say 2 weeks before), does that affect Uric acid levels? or is it not as simple as that?

Interesting point, gout is a big problem for Monitors, and something I want to avoid.

Will try some chicken and rabbit feeds either way


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

ExoticInsectsUK said:


> As I have said many times chicken food is no roach chow.
> I have 100s of thousands of roaches now and over 10 types of roaches non of mine eat chicken feed! (its for chickens:lol2
> The only people that say use chicken feed is people with 1 tub of roaches or none.
> People that have many roach colonies use a mixed diet. A well mixed roach chow and fresh fruit and veg.
> It costs more for the right dry roach mix and a hell of a lot for fresh fruit and veg but they eat it and are happier. More important they grow better:2thumb:


Agree. Chicken food is for chickens, dog food is for dogs, cat food is for cats etc.

Why complicate it? Fresh fruit and veg are their staple. You can feed dry insect food if you want but I feed bran.


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Spideypidey said:


> Agree. Chicken food is for chickens, dog food is for dogs, cat food is for cats etc.
> 
> Why complicate it? Fresh fruit and veg are their staple. You can feed dry insect food if you want but I feed bran.


And what is this "insect food" made from? What does it contain to classify it as "insect food" ? :hmm:


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## mr stroudy (Mar 11, 2008)

Spideypidey said:


> Agree. Chicken food is for chickens, dog food is for dogs, cat food is for cats etc.
> 
> Why complicate it? Fresh fruit and veg are their staple. You can feed dry insect food if you want but I feed bran.


It's a shame you think like this as alot of dog and cat food is not even fit for them. Look at the ingredients of chicken food and you will see it is fine if you choose the correct one. 
The chicken feed I get for mine is all vegtables it contains No grit so please do explain why it's wrong.they eat it they grow and breed.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Pyrite said:


> And what is this "insect food" made from? What does it contain to classify it as "insect food" ? :hmm:


I don't know. I don't think anyone has gone into insect nutrition in any great detail. For example ProRep Bug Grub usually used for gut loading the night before using as food to make them more nutritious. But if roaches are already fed a healthy diet they're already gut loaded.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

mr stroudy said:


> It's a shame you think like this as alot of dog and cat food is not even fit for them. Look at the ingredients of chicken food and you will see it is fine if you choose the correct one.
> The chicken feed I get for mine is all vegtables it contains No grit so please do explain why it's wrong.they eat it they grow and breed.


My point is that it's not necessary: You're eating an apple give the roaches some. You're eating a banana give the roaches some. Preparing carrots give the roaches an end or two. Outer leaf from a cabbage or cauliflower, etc. etc. The only thing to be careful of is insecticide. Probably the only thing I buy specially for roaches is bran.

In the wild Dubia Roaches eat fallen fruit, grass and leaves. They don't eat chicken food.


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Spideypidey said:


> I don't know. I don't think anyone has gone into insect nutrition in any great detail. For example ProRep Bug Grub usually used for gut loading the night before using as food to make them more nutritious. But if roaches are already fed a healthy diet they're already gut loaded.


So if you don't know then how can you agree with a statement with nothing to back up your argument especially when you don't know what it's made from? 

Personally, all commercialized insect food like the ones Rephasy, ProRep, Flukers..etc is just another gimmick to get you to spend money on something which you really don't need.

Out in nature insects heavily depend either on crops, rotting fruit and vegetative matter, weeds and grasses as well as people's trash for scraps. Obviously, those that are herbivorous, such in this case, Blaptica Dubia.

Chicken food is made for chickens but it doesn't mean it's contents are strictly bound to chickens. Most of it made from vegetative matter, the rest crude protein and vitamins. Typically it's a lot healthier as it's contents are those that what these insects would probably eat in the wild.

I believe this to be a much more "natural" approach to feeding roaches then dog food, which isn't even healthy for dogs.


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## mr stroudy (Mar 11, 2008)

Spideypidey said:


> My point is that it's not necessary: You're eating an apple give the roaches some. You're eating a banana give the roaches some. Preparing carrots give the roaches an end or two. Outer leaf from a cabbage or cauliflower, etc. etc. The only thing to be careful of is insecticide. Probably the only thing I buy specially for roaches is bran.
> 
> In the wild Dubia Roaches eat fallen fruit, grass and leaves. They don't eat chicken food.


so what you are saying is feed them fruit and veg but dont feed them chicken food which is veg:bash:

what do chickens eat in the wild? and if you look on chicken forums im sure you will find one of there main problems is roaches eating there chicken feed


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

mr stroudy said:


> so what you are saying is feed them fruit and veg but dont feed them chicken food which is veg:bash:
> 
> what do chickens eat in the wild? and if you look on chicken forums im sure you will find one of there main problems is roaches eating there chicken feed


I study poultry and this is true. Roaches and Rats are usually a big problem on poultry farms and one of the biggest pests to deal with.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Pyrite said:


> So if you don't know then how can you agree with a statement with nothing to back up your argument especially when you don't know what it's made from?
> 
> Personally, all commercialized insect food like the ones Rephasy, ProRep, Flukers..etc is just another gimmick to get you to spend money on something which you really don't need.
> 
> ...


Go back to my first post in this thread and read again what I agreed with. I don't feed any prepared food, I feed bran, fruit and vegetables.

You state what roaches eat and then you disagree with yourself and advocate the use of chicken food. Ambiguous to say the least.


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

Spideypidey said:


> Go back to my first post in this thread and read again what I agreed with. I don't feed any prepared food, I feed bran, fruit and vegetables.
> 
> You state what roaches eat and then you disagree with yourself and advocate the use of chicken food. Ambiguous to say the least.


How am I disagreeing with myself? 

Chicken food is made from vegetable matter, i.e crops/grasses/the like and what I stated is that insects, such as Dubias, eat such crops. I fail to see what you are getting at.

You promote the feed of vegetable matter but chicken/rabbit feed is a no no. If anyone here is being ambiguous it's you lol

And for the matter I didn't point out anything on what you agreed with but you suggested "insect food" when you yourself don't even know what it's made from which results your comment to be null, i.e a vague alternative.

The rest is my opinion on the matter of commercialized feed. It has nothing to do with you.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Pyrite said:


> How am I disagreeing with myself?
> 
> Chicken food is made from vegetable matter, i.e crops/grasses/the like and what I stated is that insects, such as Dubias, eat such crops. I fail to see what you are getting at.
> 
> ...


Chicken feed is processed and made for chickens and not necessary. There's also the point missed so far that if I bought a bag of chicken feed it would probably last my roaches 100 years if not longer!


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## mr stroudy (Mar 11, 2008)

Spideypidey said:


> Chicken feed is processed and made for chickens and not necessary. There's also the point missed so far that if I bought a bag of chicken feed it would probably last my roaches 100 years if not longer!


 at least you can look at the packet and tell exactly what is in it. with all the bug grub i have seen i never see any ingredients!!! 

i just had a google search and from what i can make out it is full of additives, no listing of any ingredients.

i personally would be much happier to feed an organic chicken feed along with some fresh fruit than add something i know nothing about, or could even find any solid facts about it.

and the point of it lasting your roaches 100+ years sounds like a bloody good point to me, if you dont want it to last that long here's an idea, buy a smaller bag.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

mr stroudy said:


> at least you can look at the packet and tell exactly what is in it. with all the bug grub i have seen i never see any ingredients!!!


coz then they would not be able to sell it at the price they do :whistling2:


Although I am pretty sure that all those people selling roach food with out ingredients, are infact breaking the law on food labeling, regardless of how roaches are classified, ie as either pet, livestock, food producing livestock...the list goes on!

there are numerous laws on the subject, and are very strict...but I doubt the roach breeding business is big enough for trading standards or the food standards agency to take much notice of


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## mr stroudy (Mar 11, 2008)

CloudForest said:


> coz then they would not be able to sell it at the price they do :whistling2:
> 
> 
> Although I am pretty sure that all those people selling roach food with out ingredients, are infact breaking the law on food labeling, regardless of how roaches are classified, ie as either pet, livestock, food producing livestock...the list goes on!
> ...


i agree kinda worrying what they get away with putting in it.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

CloudForest said:


> coz then they would not be able to sell it at the price they do :whistling2:
> 
> 
> Although I am pretty sure that all those people selling roach food with out ingredients, are infact breaking the law on food labeling, regardless of how roaches are classified, ie as either pet, livestock, food producing livestock...the list goes on!
> ...


Bug grub, is chicken food with added bran. 

Yes be very cautious what you buy as 'roach chow'. There is at least one seller on this forum who I believe is giving a list of ingredients that is very misleading at best. Trading standards may be getting a complaint about them very soon.


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## ExoticInsectsUK (Nov 15, 2008)

There seems to be the same few trying to make them self out to be experts on this forum:lol2: dragon farm has 1 tub of roaches and the op has said To be honest I really have no idea what I am doing. I started out with a dubia colony about 7months ago. Don't be fooled by this pair.


For anyone reading this load of rubbish just feed fruit and veg and add your own mix which you can buy here Parrot Food, Bird Seed, and Avian Supplies from Junglegold.com (not sure who owns it) it supplies many seeds and grains,there are other websites like this im sure.
This way you know what you are getting in your roach mix and you don't need to buy one if you don't want to:2thumb:.

Please don't feed wet chicken food! Roaches will get the water from FRESH FOOD. Too much wet food is no good for roaches.


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## Pyrite (Oct 13, 2012)

ExoticInsectsUK said:


> There seems to be the same few trying to make them self out to be experts on this forum:lol2: dragon farm has 1 tub of roaches and the op has said To be honest I really have no idea what I am doing. I started out with a dubia colony about 7months ago. Don't be fooled by this pair.
> 
> 
> For anyone reading this load of rubbish just feed fruit and veg and add your own mix which you can buy here Parrot Food, Bird Seed, and Avian Supplies from Junglegold.com (not sure who owns it) it supplies many seeds and grains,there are other websites like this im sure.
> ...


No one is here claiming to be an expert. Don't come advertising your trash and then put words in my mouth. 

It's a *discussion* and unless you back up whatever it is you (in general, not you specifically) claim with relevance then please stay off this thread.

*NO ONE *knows what they are doing. You haven't got a single clue either so please don't come here claiming what is and what isn't. 

There is no hard proof on what works and what doesn't. What is there however is indication that high protein diets are unnecessary and can lead to negative effects which I believe, by my standard and moral value, is what we should aim to minimize as farmers.

Personally I already claimed what I think makes more sense. I really don't care what you feed yours, I won't ever be buying from you or anyone else on here to begin with.

All this school-yard trash talk over who's better and who's not is really childish.

Kindly keep your mundane vague remarks to yourself and get off my thread.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

did anyone have info on uric acid levels and how long they stay high for?

also how do you define a high-protein diet? when feeding a roach colony a mix of foods, how do you know which food particles are being eaten, and therefore how much protein is being eaten compared to carb's, for eg.

When I do a mix of dry cat food, oats and dried fruit, with the cat food being about 60% protein, the total protein is <20%....is that a high protein diet for a roach? it doesn't sound that high tbh


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## ExoticInsectsUK (Nov 15, 2008)

Pyrite said:


> There is no hard proof on what works and what doesn't.
> All this school-yard trash talk over who's better and who's not is really childish.


As you said this is a forum, and not a free way to advertise the wrong information, im just making sure people don't listen to the rubbish you are saying. If you had any proof to back up what you are saying then people may think twice but you don't its just your (dragon farms ) opinion. chicken food is cheap but its the wrong type of food Look into how its made and what is in it. fresh is always better

I have tried to help you but you just want people to spoon feed you the answers. Do some research and look at cockroach forums there are lots of breeders that are very successful breeding roaches. You will find non of them feed wet chicken food!
I have never told you to feed dog or cat food and I have never told you to buy anything from me!


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

this argument makes no sense. and adds nothing to the discussion. can we get back on track?



did anyone have info on uric acid levels and how long they stay high for?

also how do you define a high-protein diet? when feeding a roach colony a mix of foods, how do you know which food particles are being eaten, and therefore how much protein is being eaten compared to carb's, for eg.

When I do a mix of dry cat food, oats and dried fruit, with the cat food being about 60% protein, the total protein is <20%....is that a high protein diet for a roach? it doesn't sound that high tbh


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

CloudForest said:


> this argument makes no sense. and adds nothing to the discussion. can we get back on track?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is a study done on German roaches that suggested 4% protein was all they needed.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Dragon Farm said:


> There is a study done on German roaches that suggested 4% protein was all they needed.


thats very low, i'm suprised, was that specifically for Dubia's or..


a link would be great if you have one


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

I should have made it clearer, 'German Roach' (_Blatella germanica)_ is the common name of a pest species of roach. 

Here is a link to the article I was thinking of, with further links there to more research. Its worth taking your time over. 

The Roach Revolution Revelation (a theory about Reptile Gout) - Gecko Resource Forums


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

ExoticInsectsUK said:


> As you said this is a forum, and not a free way to advertise the wrong information, im just making sure people don't listen to the rubbish you are saying. If you had any proof to back up what you are saying then people may think twice but you don't its just your (dragon farms ) opinion. *chicken food is cheap but its the wrong type of food Look into how its made and what is in it. fresh is always better*
> 
> I have tried to help you but you just want people to spoon feed you the answers. Do some research and look at cockroach forums there are lots of breeders that are very successful breeding roaches. You will find non of them feed wet chicken food!
> I have never told you to feed dog or cat food and I have never told you to buy anything from me!


But the majority of what my roaches eat is fresh veg and fruit. The chicken food I use is just as fresh surely as the dry food mix you are using. Yes chicken food is designed for chickens, but it has been exactly what the livefood industry has been using for crickets, mealworms, morio worms other insects sucessfully for decades. I can't see how it is any less natural than the fish food added to your mix. I doubt Dubia roaches are used to eating alot of fish in the wild.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

ExoticInsectsUK said:


> There seems to be the same few trying to make them self out to be experts on this forum:lol2: dragon farm has 1 tub of roaches and the op has said To be honest I really have no idea what I am doing. I started out with a dubia colony about 7months ago. Don't be fooled by this pair.


You are talking nonsense. I make my living from breeding lizards. Roaches make up a very large part of the diet of the many hundreds of lizards that I have. I breed 95% plus of all the food my lizards eat. 

If I only had one tub of roaches, it would have have to be one extremely large tub !!!


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Dragon Farm said:


> I should have made it clearer, 'German Roach' (_Blatella germanica)_ is the common name of a pest species of roach.
> 
> Here is a link to the article I was thinking of, with further links there to more research. Its worth taking your time over.
> 
> The Roach Revolution Revelation (a theory about Reptile Gout) - Gecko Resource Forums


thanks, will have a read!


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

ExoticInsectsUK said:


> As you said this is a forum, and not a free way to advertise the wrong information, im just making sure people don't listen to the rubbish you are saying. If you had any proof to back up what you are saying then people may think twice but you don't its just your (dragon farms ) opinion. chicken food is cheap but its the wrong type of food Look into how its made and what is in it. fresh is always better
> 
> I have tried to help you but you just want people to spoon feed you the answers. Do some research and look at cockroach forums there are lots of breeders that are very successful breeding roaches. You will find non of them feed wet chicken food!
> I have never told you to feed dog or cat food and I have never told you to buy anything from me!


Hmmmm yes if only there were actual people out there, lets call them 'scientists', who were researching these exact topics objectively. And if only there were a tool, lets call it the 'internet', where one could go and find this information. Wouldnt that be grand! Then we could look it up and read it for ourselves and have the answers we want. :lol2: Seriously, there are lots of lovely scientists researching these exact topics. So far every single one has responded to my emails when Ive asked questions, and even sent me articles I wasnt able to get online occasionally. Thats one of the reason that almost all published articles now have email addresses for the authors. As for the roach forums, there is some good experience there, for sure, but they are definitely not the best place for scientific information like you all are talking about. Ive lived around ranchers all my life, but I dont go to them when I want to know how a high grain diet interacts with the various stomachs of a cow over grass based diets, for instance. Besides, breeding roaches for the sake of roaches is different than breeding roaches for the sake of food for reptiles. 

ExoticInsectsUK, you seem to throw around a lot of slurs lately but not much of anything else, like this proof you claim others should have. Got any of your own to back up what you say? 

That information about the protein percentage was the lowest they were able to survive on, and that was with German roaches, as you said. They are a little hardier than their tropical cousins. It seems the best protein percentage for dubias is about 17-18%. The other problem with cat and dog food is that its also covered in fat (the last thing they do in the process is to spray it in fat so its more palatable) which means the roaches, and any other animal, will eat it preferentially over other foods. Since cat food is around 30-40% protein normally, along with other gross additives/preservatives/etc, thats where you start running into problems. Not life threatening problems mind you, just potential issues that are easy to avoid. Its only really bad (fatal) if its wet cat or dog food, as the dry food makes it harder to consume as quickly. As for the uric acid build up and how long it takes to go back to normal Cloudforest, I dont really remember. I dont think it would take more than a few days probably, but you could go a week to be safe. If you are feeding roaches in conjunction with other things, and have a hydrated monitor, it shouldnt be problematic either way. 

As for chicken feed, it generally hits that nice 18% sweet spot on protein, and since its for chickens, it isnt sprayed in fat (chicken feed is normally quite low in fat, around 3-5%). Its also better as the nutritional supplementation is quite similar in birds and reptiles for things like vitamins and minerals. For instance, chicken feed is often formulated with a high calcium to phosphorous ratio, much like reptile food. It is usually an exuded (processed) product though, so there is that, however that also means that all the ingredients are well mixed so that the roaches cant pick and choose what they like. That happens if you make your own dry mix, which means they may not be getting all the nutritional variety you are hoping to offer them. In other words, there are advantages and disadvantages to both. Id say if you are making your own dry mix, to get a grinder and grind it all together into a fine powder.


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## ZOO CENTRE (Apr 1, 2010)

Dragon Farm said:


> There is a study done on German roaches that suggested 4% protein was all they needed.


This roach is the biggest bastard from pest species and needs it for 'surviving' - it says 'NOTHING'!! :lol2:



Dragon Farm said:


> I should have made it clearer, 'German Roach' (_Blatella germanica)_ is the common name of a pest species of roach.
> 
> Here is a link to the article I was thinking of, with further links there to more research. Its worth taking your time over.
> 
> The Roach Revolution Revelation (a theory about Reptile Gout) - Gecko Resource Forums


This is advertising on Repashy forum,for Repashy burger from Allen Repashy:lol2:



jarich said:


> Hmmmm yes if only there were actual people out there, lets call them 'scientists', who were researching these exact topics objectively. And if only there were a tool, lets call it the 'internet', where one could go and find this information. Wouldnt that be grand! Then we could look it up and read it for ourselves and have the answers we want. :lol2: Seriously, there are lots of lovely scientists researching these exact topics. So far every single one has responded to my emails when Ive asked questions, and even sent me articles I wasnt able to get online occasionally. Thats one of the reason that almost all published articles now have email addresses for the authors. As for the roach forums, there is some good experience there, for sure, but they are definitely not the best place for scientific information like you all are talking about. Ive lived around ranchers all my life, but I dont go to them when I want to know how a high grain diet interacts with the various stomachs of a cow over grass based diets, for instance. Besides, breeding roaches for the sake of roaches is different than breeding roaches for the sake of food for reptiles.
> 
> ExoticInsectsUK, you seem to throw around a lot of slurs lately but not much of anything else, like this proof you claim others should have. Got any of your own to back up what you say?
> 
> ...


As I said - the most important is nutritional value.
Generally I am not against feeding of chicken feed - it can work well mixed with other ingredients. 


Guys we tried to resolve it on other threads and other forum.....and it is again and again....... :lol2:


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