# Future of Reptile Keeping



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Okay, 

With everything that is going on around our hobbies and the industry politically and of course legislationally.

The EPS legislation, DWA, AWA, CITES restrictions and additions, RSPCA, DEFRA, yada yada.

What are your personal opinions?

Where do you think the hobby will be in say ten years? [2017]

Will there still be a hobby in twenty years? [2027]

In your eyes as pro reptile keepers, what is the future for your animals and your passion?

Rory Matier
PKL


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

The hobbies have been around for years already but more common and mainstream these days


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## hermanlover (Jul 8, 2007)

i think in 10 years or maybe less they will try to bring in a thing so that you have to have a license to own reptiles and exotics and then eventually push for a ban completley. 

i just wish they would leave us alone and let us do what we do best.

lee


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

personally I cant see a complete ban on reptile keeping, in 10 or 20 years, I could see there being licencing and stricter control on WC animals, but not a complete ban.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

I personally dont see a total ban either, maybe im too much of a glass half full person on this subject, but i have heard this same discussion for 18years, it dont mean im not ready to fight, as they say

To secure peace, prepare for war:no1:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

we might be getting some more brits here in the future!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

id just hop over the Irish sea and live in the ROI


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Perhaps Si*

But even they are tightening up on their legislation now.
R


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I did hear a rumor that they were bringing in a DWA style licence.


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## Plutino (Aug 5, 2007)

seems as anything gets more mainstream there needs to be more regulations to some extent. I can see some laws as necessary because as there are more keepers, there are more poor keepers. Granted, we need to be carefull what we allow to get passed, but some regulations are good, IE tortoise importation crackdown. I can't see the hobby dying anytime soon. As more and more people keep reptiles, the voice of pro keepers should be growing. Like others have said, more restrictions maybe, but I can't see a complete ban in my lifetime. I can't see anyone allowing the destruction of over 5 million animals.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*The Facts are simple...*

I don't know if an entire ban is on the books, serious restrictions yes, the banning of certain species to be kept, yes.

Fervent campaigns will become a real hottie in our immediate futures by those that oppose, yes.

But l think with the general feeling towards 'us' by 'them', l think that what we know as an exotics keeping industry now, will be very, very different in twenty years to what we know now.

I do think somewhere in the next ten years perhaps that maybe keepers 'will not be keeping' primates in the legal sense of the word.

I think certain mammals will not be kept either.

I think the reptile community will be so restricted and so difficult to maintain that many people may, may not bother to actually keep anything more exotic than a corn snake.

Now you all know that l am not a reptile man, and l will take a hammering for saying the above if the reader so wishes it.

However, with the activities of those that oppose our passionate collectives, l think that seeing as they have the greater empathy vote from the non collecting Joe Bloggs public, and we as a fraternity are seen as the 'odd ones' they will continue to strike against us and the public may well end up supporting them in all forms, and perhaps we - us - our hobbies will be eradicated completely one day.

My opinion only perhaps.

Rory


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## sw3an29 (Jul 13, 2007)

i really dont know what it will be like


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I agree that things look bleak with regards to restrictions and such continually beng introduced and pushed.

I fear that it mayu, in fact, become a reality that red tape alone will see a end to the hobby we love. A full ban isn't always the necessary action - governments and such have done this for years - they tie things up with so many rules, guidelines nad stuff that in the end, people give up fighting for what they want because there is so much paperwork and messing onvolved. 

Could this be what they RSPCA and the likes are hoping for Rory? That reptile keeprs will get so fed up of new guidelines and regulations that they will roll over and admit defeat?

Take a look at the smoking ban (yes I know it has all been said already) - people said that it would never happen, there are a MASSIVE amount more smokers than there are rpetilekeepers in the UK and I would guess that the teeniest percentage of smokers don't go anywhere that is public! They introduced the ban which was initially to cover only public spaces such as pubs and clubs etc. Now you can't stand in a bus stop and smoke, you cannot smoke under the shelter utsdie your local SOmerfields because by LAW you have to be at least 3 meters away form any sheltered public place. You can't even smoke in your own home, which you work your ass off for, if you have anyone visiting to carry out work for a minimum of half an hour before they arrive. Now that may not be the cae in every county of the UK but it is certianly the cae for people in my area - Wirral, Liverpool and Cheshire.

So, lets say they do say you can't keep X,Y and Z - what will follow - you can't keep A,B and C if you have people visiting your house, you can't keep them unless they are in a room with similar set-ups to those required by DWA? Or you simply can't kep them because the RSPCA plan to move on making it impossible to keep D, E and F!!

I foresee a ridiculous change to the hobby - maybe not in this year, maybe not even in 5 years but t is coming one way or another unless we stand up and do something about it now. 

I don't care if my voice doesn't make a bit of difference becuae I will know I have tried at least.


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## shiva&kaa123 (Jul 20, 2007)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Okay,
> 
> With everything that is going on around our hobbies and the industry politically and of course legislationally.
> 
> ...


Hate to say it mate but you really are the voice of doom! Every thread is about losing our right to keep reps/stopping shows/banning monkey keeping, I know it's relevant but lighten up!:smile:
Ben


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Is the tide turning with regard to animal rights extremists ?

The public are now aware of how low these people will stoop. The digging up of dead people was a leap way too far.

PETA with the anti fur campaign... they had supermodels on their books like Naomi Campbell. They have not any more !!!

The figures on PETA, how rich they are and how many animals they destroy each year.

The figures on RSPCA, how rich they are and how many animals they destroy each year.

Are people beginning to wake up to the likes of Animal Aid and the RSPCA and PETA ?

Will this continue ? or will they take steps to fix their damaged reputations ?

Once the majority of the public are on to them... will they become the ones that are hounded out of existance ?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

glad i'm here, the land of the $200(100 quid) emerald tree boa!!:no1:


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## shiva&kaa123 (Jul 20, 2007)

ratboy said:


> The public are now aware of how low these people will stoop. The digging up of dead people was a leap way too far.


What?! When was this? That's just _way _too far!
Ben


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

shiva&kaa123 said:


> What?! When was this? That's just _way _too far!
> Ben


Animal rights militants admit grave robbing | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*You are right..*

I am the voice of doom.

You are not the first to say it Ben, most of the RFUK crew think this way.

Recently l have been referred to as the anti christ!!

It isn't the voice of doom and gloom, it isn't scare mongering, it is however - the facts.

Lighten up you say.

Okay, l will - there we go - how is that, have l said anything bad in this response so far?

It is not me that is trying to be Mr Doom Ben, but sadly when there are only a few of us trying to motivate responses, and the only way we can achieve this without including, sex, drugs and rock and roll in the content, then everything we say will be doomy and gloomy.

When more keepers are really looking at these threads and realising that what we are saying is not specifically geared up to dampen, but to enlighten, only then will commentary such as 'the voice of doom' be lost and hopefully replaced with:

Are we asking the right questions?

Who do we need to speak to - to get a proper response?

What is going on?

Why have we kept in the dark for so long?

Or something like that....so to write as they say.

However, if l am to be classed as the voice of doom for the time being then so be it.

yror


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## shiva&kaa123 (Jul 20, 2007)

Good answer! I totally agree with you on your views but there's not masses I can do as I am only 14, I'm trying to educate people in schools around my area by doing speeches on reps but apart from that there's not alot I can do...
Ben


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

But that is a start Ben - it is a positive forward action which is exactly what is needed now.

Yes, Rory may appear to come across as the voice of doom, many others may feel the same but I , for one, would much rather receive the hard truth than a sugar coated view of how things could end up.

There would be nothing Rory would like more, I am sure, than to come online and say "we have 1500 members of the PKL, all willing to step up and fight the cause - lets do it!" but sadly it is a political thing too - something not all of us understand. I for one hold my hands up and admit that some things here go right over my head. I know that I can ask Rory about them and he will explain them better as I am sure he would for anyone willing to help and wanting to be fully knowledgable on the issues.

The political side, as far as I can see, is a long winded and sometimes excessively complicated and isn't always what it appears to be. For this reason, it is at times easier to say that a certian thing is in the pipeline than to explain all the ins and outs of the documets that are submitted etc

Hope I got that sort of right lol


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Very True*

Ben, 

Brit is right...you are the forward step.

At 14, in ten years you will be 24 and in 20 - 34.

Hopefully by the time you have both of the ages, you will be an experienced reptile keeper. Further more, you will be an experienced political reptile keeper, for that is the way it is.

We will all be more politically motivated keepers in the near future, by choice now - no. By choice then, probably.

But what you do now on the positive side, will reflect for your future of tomorrow.

BTW - PKL has 136 members.

Rory


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

shiva&kaa123 said:


> Hate to say it mate but you really are the voice of doom! Every thread is about losing our right to keep reps/stopping shows/banning monkey keeping, I know it's relevant but lighten up!:smile:
> Ben


Yeah, I'll just "lighten up" about the fact I'm seriously having to consider euthanising two of my animals because of the European Protected Species act. Chumley and Tananda may have to be killed just so that I don't get six months in jail and/or a £5000 fine for keeping unlicensed animals that I'm unlikely to be able to GET a license for ... because I can't prove their origin.

I'll just lighten up about the fact that I can see the potential for CITES Annex II species going the same way... and that wipes out not just two of my animals, but half of my entire household.

I'll just lighten up about the fact that the Animal Welfare Act brings in some wonderful new regulations and will bring in codes of practice for keeping animals ... that, if you can't meet, you can't keep your animals. They'll be confiscated and rehomed, sold or euthanised. One of the possible ones, based on the RSPCA reptile care sheets on their site (which you can bet they will be pushing to have made Codes of Practice) is that corn snakes, rat snakes and royal pythons must be kept in vivariums that are as long as the longest snake you have in them. Keepers know royals prefer smaller - and how many people with dozens of corns or rats that they breed have space for multiple five to eight foot vivariums?

Kiddo... as long as I can, I'm going to be shouting that there is a mighty big problem and this is the tip of the iceberg - because if I stop, people won't hear the message.

What do I see in the future?

People might still be keeping leopard geckos, anoles and other small lizards; we'll probably still be keeping kings and corn snakes - but the latter won't be bred in any quantity and I can see the price shooting up, because people won't be able to AFFORD to keep breeding stock that isn't high end... Pythons, boas, monitors, tegus... even parrots (other than budgerigars and cockatiels) won't be kept either.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Vod*

You see Ben, 

This is why we can not let up.

EPS, Animal Welfare Act and even to a certain degree the shift of species on the DWAL.

Too many keepers are not looking with their eyes wide open as to what is really going on.

Great, we can talk about the next show...

Great, we can chat about the Hamm show...

Great we can natter about whether you should spit or swallow....

BUT!

We should also be addressing as a fraternity what the Friggin Hell is going on?

And why are we being subjected to the crippling patheticness of those that oppose as well as those that know no better and do not even fully realise what they are doing with implementing legislation that has not been fully researched nor studied to its fullest fruition.

The EPS alone will potentially subject 500,000 animals to an executors block, and all at present DEFRA seem to be doing about it is dragging their heels due to the fact that they have blundered with financial management and have acrued a £300 million pound debt and as such animal welfare issues are either on hold or at the bottom of the list of priorities.

A minister in charge of the EPS legislation that is a pen pusher and does not have a bloody clue what is really going on nor understands what they have gone and done.

People care about animals?

Really?

We are a nation of apparent animal lovers?

Who is - just us the keepers?

How about Joe Bloggs, or the Parliamentry Ministers, the 'opposition?' the antis? the RSPCA?

Really, l am sorry but where are all the animal lovers?

And how about the reptile keepers who do not own some of the EPS species, do you care? Really? When?

So you don't own any, it doesn't affect you..............................YET only my friends.

Rory Matier

Pro Keepers Lobby

137 Siganatures


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I was speaking to a guy I know in Sweden about this law and he said they have had this europeon species law for a while, he said that he just makes sure that any species bought or bred by him have certificates, he said in general not alot has changed, in the way they go about things, he said he has been getting breeders certificates for a few years now just in case.

I can tell you one thing though, I wouldnt be taking any of my animals to be euthanised, because I couldnt get certificates, if they ever needed vets treatment or people found out I would cross that bridge when I came to it.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Or*

Blockade the bridge, and then en masse cross it.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

yeh thats the thing, I cant see thousands of pet owners willingly handing over their pets to be taken away and killed, and I dont know how an already stretched police and AWA brigade will police it, I think we all need to stand together on this one, the law needs to be realistic, not owning any species on the list it doesnt really effect me but it does bother me.

If they could change the law saying all animals bred from this point on wards or the start of next year, need to be supplied with breeders certificates to prove that they are captive bred, then that IMO is fair enough, as an animal lover I appreciate animals in their natural surroundings as well as the animals I keep in captivity, im under no illusions that animals when WC, are quite often caught and transported in diabolical conditions and alot die on route to our pet trade. This is not good because it will lead faster to their numbers in the wild being seriously effected, I also dont think their should be a complete ban on the taking animals from the wild, I just dont htink hundreds on animals should be taken and sold into the pet trade just to make a fast buck.


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## Phaedra (Sep 12, 2007)

I'm relatively new to reptile keeping (got my first snake in January) so much of this legislation I don't know about, and have only come across since joining this forum. The problem, as far as I can see, is that the people who make up these new laws about reptiles are people who know virtually nothing about them (and that includes the RSPCA, how many of those know more about reptiles than the average person?) and think, because of movies like Ancaonda (yeah, anything with Jennifer Lopez in it has gotta be quality education!) that snakes are viscious creatures who only irresponsible people want to keep. 

Every single person I come across that knows I have snakes asks me questions about them. Always the same questions, over and over again, but do I mind? Like hell I do, I love educating people about them. I love it when I tell them not one snake has ever tried to bite me, love seeing it dawn on them that snakes aren't viscious beasts. How the majority of us do NOT feed live cute little fluffy things to them, but feed them animals that are humanely killed - more humanely than the animals whose meat goes into cat and dog food, I'd wager. Education is always, always the key. We need people like Rory to teach those guys sitting up in their government chairs about the things they have so much control over, the welfare and needs of our pets. 

When I have a more varied reptile collection, I would dearly love to go to primary (kindergarten) schools and teach the young kids, the MPs of the future, about these wonderful animals. How great would it be if every kid in the country grew up knowing the truth about reptiles, amphibians and inverts, whether they actually want them as pets or not?

I don't know where the hobby will be in 10 or 20 years, I barely know where it is now, but I hope people like Rory keep on pushing to make their voices heard.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i'm glad that i don't have to contend with all this. it's still the wild, wild west here for keeping herps...thankfully. i'd be ballistic in these concerns. i wish you guys success, go get 'em!! too often in many instances, "they'll never do that" have been famous last words. rights can be taken away with a stroke of a pen!....keep that in mind..
habu-dave: victory:


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## jonosd (Sep 4, 2007)

i expect i will get flamed for this. however, the lid on reptile keeping will eventually be closed, later rather than sooner i hope. just like hunting with dogs was banned.
its just another example of a hobby which has been stopped, because people who knew nothing about it, didnt agree with it and assumed it a cruel persuite.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

SiUK said:


> I was speaking to a guy I know in Sweden about this law and he said they have had this europeon species law for a while, he said that he just makes sure that any species bought or bred by him have certificates, he said in general not alot has changed, in the way they go about things, he said he has been getting breeders certificates for a few years now just in case.


Which is wonderful IF you have certificates to begin with. But these were never issued - not for CB animals here in the UK and most certainly not for WC animals that were caught outside the EU.



> I can tell you one thing though, I wouldnt be taking any of my animals to be euthanised, because I couldnt get certificates, if they ever needed vets treatment or people found out I would cross that bridge when I came to it.


I have a personal choice here.

1. Do I put down two healthy animals because I can't license them, and keep my house and my other reptiles safe?
2. Do I keep the animals and run the risk of prosecution, fines we can't afford, jail time we can afford even less... and risk losing my house AND all my other animals?

In this case... in my house... the needs of the other 48 reptiles come before the needs of two. I'm willing to fight, but I'm not willing to risk everyone else.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

one thing i'd like to mention, and then i'll shut up. never compromise with the "anti" people, reguardless of how good the compromise is for both concerns, it's always a victory for the "anti" camp.... this applies to all things, not just animal keeping. the opposition is fine with just whittling away at things. time is on their side. now i'll shut up because i don't even live there, just been reading threads.


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

HABU said:


> one thing i'd like to mention, and then i'll shut up. never compromise with the "anti" people, reguardless of how good the compromise is for both concerns, it's always a victory for the "anti" camp.... this applies to all things, not just animal keeping. the opposition is fine with just whittling away at things. time is on their side. now i'll shut up because i don't even live there, just been reading threads.


I have to agree on the No compromise, the anti's will see it as a win and just come back again and whittle down a bit more..........in the end they will probably win...:bash:


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

That is too True Habu! Animal Aid targetted Wyevale garden centres to stop selling pets! Eventually they gave in. What did Animal Aid do, they said great, thanks, now we want you to kick your biggest franchise Maidenhead Aquactics out of all your centre's, and were not going to stop chasing you until you do! 

See what a bit of compromise does, NOTHING!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

people have been getting breeder certificates over here for a while, I believe Gaz has them for his captive bred boas.

You wouldnt get sent to prison, you may get a small fine and your illegal animals taken, but they are hardly going to take all your animals from you and thats if you even get caught.

I respect your opinion and understand you are worried about it, I can see your point but, I think that taking your animals to get put to sleep is a bit drastic at the moment.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

the more I think about it the more ridiculous it seems to be, its completely stupid, it hasnt been illegal since 1994 to keep wild caught europeon reptiles, so there has been no need to get breeders certificates or not buy WC stock, so how can they suddenly demand that it needs to be backdated??

Does anyone know the truth behind it, someone mentioned the other day that they rang Defra or CITES or someone and they were told it doesnt count to private owners, its all a total grey area, if someone keeps these animals and hasnt happened to come across it on the internet then how the hell would know about it, it hasnt exactly been publised, theres no posters at petshops or anything to even suggest it.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

SiUK said:


> people have been getting breeder certificates over here for a while, I believe Gaz has them for his captive bred boas.
> 
> You wouldnt get sent to prison, you may get a small fine and your illegal animals taken, but they are hardly going to take all your animals from you and thats if you even get caught.
> 
> I respect your opinion and understand you are worried about it, I can see your point but, I think that taking your animals to get put to sleep is a bit drastic at the moment.


I'm pretty sure Gaz's boas are animals on CITES - with Article 10 paperwork.... if there are any other breeder's certificates out there, I haven't seen 'em.

The Natural England specifications DO list a six-month jail sentence - and/or a £5000 fine - as the maximum punishment for an EPS offense. As for the other animals - even a fine a FIFTH of the maximum would be a risk for our animals - not that they'd be taken away, but that's a mortgage payment we can't make. We just plain don't have a thousand pounds kicking around "to spare" for legal fees/etc.

We haven't made the appointment for Chumley and Tananda yet. Chum... well, he needs to go back and see our vet anyway. We'll be consulting with her about it when we do. 

And yes, SiUK... the enforcement is ridiculous - but it's not being backdated. The original Habitats Directive took place in 1994... and THAT is when the law is counted from. Not from 2007 when the UK decided to come into line with the rest of the EU about the interpretation of the Habitats Directive...

As for not applying to private keepers... that is NOT what Natural England, the group that is enforcing this, told me when I contacted them back in June. It most certainly does apply to private keepers according to them - any keeper of an EPS animal.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

it seems so hectic, I dont see how they can make it legal, I know what I mean in my head its just hard to get on paper:smile: but il have a go anyway.

I dont totally understand it so bear with me, but the law was talked about in 1994, so people knew there was a good chance of this happening over 10 years ago? in which case it may of been a good idea to bring in breeders certificates back then. But there was nothing stopping these wild caught amimals being imported and sold to the public in the pet trade, so it wasnt illegal, which isnt the keepers faults and joe public buying these animals, it seems to me that the government is at fault that all this has been going on for the last 13 years, and they can hardly justify the demands they are making now.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

As far as the European Union was concerned, it was illegal and should have required licensing from 1994. 

It was the UK's interpretation of the Habitats Directive (as referring ONLY to species within the confines of the UK - not species within any EU country) - as requiring any sort of licensing or regulation that has changed in 2007.

There was no warning that the UK was going to abruptly decide that the Habitats Directive applied to animals all through the EU instead of just species native to the British Isles ... so trade in animals that exist in the EU (and in fact OUTSIDE the EU too) was not regulated. And yes, you're absolutely right. It's not justifiable. It's not right. That's why I'm sticking my neck out and saying YES I have an EPS species... instead of trying to hide them for as long as I can.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

the future!:lol2:


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> There was no warning that the UK was going to abruptly decide that the Habitats Directive applied to animals all through the EU instead of just species native to the British Isles ... so trade in animals that exist in the EU (and in fact OUTSIDE the EU too) was not regulated. .


There was consultation on the amendments from May 2006 and there was some discussion on internet forums at the time (Cview I think), but it didn't really take off. Clearly your average keeper would not have been made aware of the impending changes, and it's hard to imagine how people would have found out about them other than through internet forums etc, which not everyone subscribes to. The trouble is, ignorance of the law is no defence, but I very much doubt we are going to see a raft of prosecutions under this.


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