# Dart Frogs - Mixing Species??



## pied pythons (Jan 18, 2008)

This really is just a seed at the moment, hense asking a very basic question.

I've been looking into setting up a proper, large naturalistic set up for a while now...and am now starting to look deeper into it all, and begin to plan more.

I keep orchids and am a plant fan anyway, so a large (perhaps something around 6' x 3' x 2') naturalistic environment in which I can house some orchids, ferns, moss, and other such plants - basically dart frog type plants would be just fantastic on its own. But keeping darts in there too would really be the icing on the cake.

I'd really like to do this either way (with or without inhabitants)...so I may as well ask...are there any dart frog species which can be kept together?

I've been having a look on dartfrog.co.uk and they've got everything I could possible want for a planted viv...and some lovely dart frogs too.

Also...are they happily kept in groups...as I can imagine quite a few could inhabit a viv of such size...or is it not recommended keeping more than a pair or so together? Would I be able to mix species, or would I need to decide on on species and stick to that for the viv?

Best wishes & thanks : victory:


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## Punchfish (Jun 13, 2008)

See as it would be your first dart viv i would suggest you don't mix species. As for groups you could house numerous individuals of any dart species in there, but some are much better in groups than others. A group of auratus or leucs would be great.


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## pied pythons (Jan 18, 2008)

Hi there, 

thanks for the reply 

Yep, it/they will be my first darts...but it won't be for a good few months yet. I need to read up very completely and thoroughly on both the viv design and the frogs. And actually set the viv up, and give it a couple of months to grow and settle etc.

I've kept Green Tree frogs in the past...so they won't be my first amphibs... (also kept alpine & fire bellied newts)...And my partner is in the midst of getting some white tree frogs.

Was looking at your frogs for sale, as you're not too far...but I'm not ready yet... If I had been, I'd be up in a shot 

Thanks for the info & advice...

What is the general script on mixing species, once you're (I'm) more adept at keeping?


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## Punchfish (Jun 13, 2008)

Its still not really done and people do frown upon it. They basically don't like offspring from mixed parents. Also the mixing of morphs is also not liked, as unlike leo and ball morphs the different dart morphs are due to different locations and have not been bred like that by keepers.

If you were to mix when more advanced it is best to keep species that can't breed together. One example of mixing is auratus and pumilio as they both occur in the same areas, but pumilio are thumbnails and are a step up from normal darts due to their tiny size.


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

Punchfish said:


> Its still not really done and people do frown upon it. They basically don't like offspring from mixed parents. Also the mixing of morphs is also not liked, as unlike leo and ball morphs the different dart morphs are due to different locations and have not been bred like that by keepers.
> 
> If you were to mix when more advanced it is best to keep species that can't breed together. One example of mixing is auratus and pumilio as they both occur in the same areas, but pumilio are thumbnails and are a step up from normal darts due to their tiny size.


I would not mix any other species with pumilio as male pummies can be very agressive towards other frogs. There is a well known photo of a male pumilio fighting a full grown tinctorius at least 5x its size.


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## Punchfish (Jun 13, 2008)

955i said:


> I would not mix any other species with pumilio as male pummies can be very agressive towards other frogs. There is a well known photo of a male pumilio fighting a full grown tinctorius at least 5x its size.


Theres your answer to that pied. I have jewels of the rainforest too . I havn't kept pumilio or any thumbnails for that fact so have never actually seen how aggressive they can be. I guess they just have small frog syndrome or in humans terms an angry ginger dwarf :shock:.

So what have you learned here? Don't try mixing any species until you have kept those species individually.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

As people have said - be VERY careful mixing species of darts. You must do a lot of research into their behaviour and personalities before deciding to mix them.

Think:

Is this species aggressive?
Will it bully for territory or mating spots or food?
Will it hybridize with other species in the tank?
Will it be more stressed being with other species?
Is it of a similar size to other species in the tank?

Ive been keeping darts for a while now and ive only found 3 species im comfortable housing together. If your planning on a huge amazing viv, i would strongly recommend setting it up first and getting it 110% perfect for them (as they do not respond well to changes in their environment!) and then pick your favourite dart - imagine a whole colony of a species, it would be wonderful! (yes you can keep more than a trio together! just be sure that your group is male-heavy)

Maybe at a later date you could look into mixing them?


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

The size of enclosure suggested would make the task a whole lot easier 

As has been said, the difficulty of mixing comes down to knowing the species, their behaviours and being able to fulfill their needs in that environment.

You're really looking at a larger bold "terrestrial" species to mix with a relatively relaxed thumbnail species.
Although _O._ _pumilio_ mix very well with _P._ _terribilis _or _P. vittatus _in a suitably large enclosure 

You aren't limited to very territorial thumbs like _pumilio, _you have loads of options, the larger _Ranitomeya_ sps. are pretty laid back and gregarious. 

I think in your position, having kept amphibians at all in the past is a plus, start out first tackling the viv, you can have literally 8 months to a year of pleasure just creating the environment and watching it grow while fine tuning it. More than enough time to know the theory of your intended species inside out. 
Start with just the larger terrestrial species and enjoy keeping a herd of them sucessfully for a while first, get used to feeding small foods in huge quantities and the joys of _Drosophilla_! 
Eventually you may feel confident enough to bring in the other species 

I do personally feel 2 species looks better and is the limits of suitability really. More and you have more than one species in the same niche, fighting it out with one another, cue trouble. 
Also, a good number of happy individuals of two species looks much nicer than a jumblesale 

Lotte***


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## pied pythons (Jan 18, 2008)

Thanks to everyone for all the comments, advice, information and time taken to help me out so far...it is much appreciated 

Can anyone help me out with this:

What are the benefits of using a false bottom...
What depth of water is most ideal for dart frogs (due to drowning issues)...
What are the disadvantages of not using a false bottom (i.e mould? Stagnant water etc?)

Best wishes


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

pied pythons said:


> Thanks to everyone for all the comments, advice, information and time taken to help me out so far...it is much appreciated
> 
> Can anyone help me out with this:
> 
> ...


The benefits of using a false bottom are: the soil will drain well and will not get waterlogged, and you can make a water feature this way. See my previous thread on How to make a dart frog viv for an idea if you like : victory: As for the mould issue - your going to have an environment almost 100% humid, therefore mould IS gonna grow! However, if you use tropical woodlice and springtails in the soil this will be vastly reduced.

I would STRONGLY recommend allowing NO water to pool in a dart viv. At the base of my waterfall the water is 1cm deep, i would not have it any deeper than that.


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## pied pythons (Jan 18, 2008)

That's great, thanks for the advice.

Yeah, I was thinking of makign a water feature, and using a pump to create a waterfall etc...so I would need a false bottom. I'm pretty much sold on the idea anyway, it seems much more practical.

Would I require a heater to raise the water temperature, or perhaps not, seeing as there won't be anything living in the water?

I perhaps should have said, yes...I intend on using a live substrate with springtails, woodlice and as someone has suggested, a few small worms.

Would a couple of millipedes be okay to keep as well? After all they're essentially just larger pill millipedes (woodlice)...

Thanks all!

(P.S - yep, I read all your thread before posting this ...also spent a few weeks looking at black jungle for inspiration)


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Seen as darts require room temperature, you will not require any additional heating to the water. My viv reaches 96% humidity with no additional heating to the viv itself or the water, with time the water will come to room temperature. Personally i would not keep millipedes with darts simply because the toxins from the darts themselves may harm the millipedes, and as these are larger inverts they may possibly stress the darts? Do not quote me on this however as i have no personal experience, it is just a thought.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

I dont keep darts, but i am a fan of huge live planted vivs. I have a 2.5x1x1 live planted community viv which is my pride and joy. I wont get into the whole community debate, but mone has been running for many years now. 

If you want a water feature a false bottom is a must to drain the soil. 

To keep the soil fresh the best things to use are tropical or normal woodlice (i have both), earth worms, and panchoda fruit beetle larve (tho im not sure how these and darts would get on). To keep the mould level down tropical springtails work wonders. 

The woodlice and springtails also act as a food source as well and depending on the size of your darts im sure the younger fruit beetle larvea would be too. 

Millipedes also work well at keep the substraite and soil maintained and brakeing down leaf litter. i have 4 burmese millipedes im growing up to go into the tank. 

Jay


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## pied pythons (Jan 18, 2008)

Spikebrit said:


> I dont keep darts, but i am a fan of huge live planted vivs. I have a 2.5x1x1 live planted community viv which is my pride and joy. I wont get into the whole community debate, but mone has been running for many years now.
> 
> If you want a water feature a false bottom is a must to drain the soil.
> 
> ...


Fruit beetles :flrt:
I'll have to look into millipedes & darts...Yep, the intention was to help break down any litter etc...as well as my interest in them...As with the springtails they'd serve a couple of purposes at once.

At the moment I'm still throwing ideas around, with regards to ''could I keep this, could I keep that'' etc...

But I'm definate on keeping just one species of dart frog...at the very least until I'm more experienced... And on how I'd like the viv to look...the size etc...

It's just a matter of fine tuning now...thank to everyone helping me out!


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

pied pythons said:


> Fruit beetles :flrt:
> I'll have to look into millipedes & darts...Yep, the intention was to help break down any litter etc...as well as my interest in them...As with the springtails they'd serve a couple of purposes at once.
> 
> At the moment I'm still throwing ideas around, with regards to ''could I keep this, could I keep that'' etc...
> ...


hehe fruit beetles are great at braking down leaf litter, but you have to get the substraite deep enougth so that tha larvea can pubate. I didnt think mine was going to be deaper enougth (its only a few inchs) but i've had a couple hatch out. mate me jump whe i first saw them in there as i wasn't expecting them to have pubated. I'm a huge beetle fan and have a few different species, though not in that tank. 

jay


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## pied pythons (Jan 18, 2008)

Yep, I'm into stick insects...cockroaches, beetles, snails etc etc... EDIT: I used to keep stick insects from the age of around 6 and ended up with hatchlings... Had them for a few years, then nothing until I was 12ish when I got 12 adults and soon ended up with over 800 baby sticks. Bless...

I'd really love a colony of hissing cockroaches but my partner won't let me...neither would my parents when I was living at home! LOL...

My partner thinks I'm weird.... hehe.

I'd have dozens of tanks, with cockroaches, various beetles, various sticks, various millipedes, other bugs etc...but we just haven't the space....Hmm...or have we.

Another quick question to you all helping me out on this thread...would dart frogs eat hatchling indian stick insects??


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

*i*

I would go along with every one else that you should take your time on mixing.
Never went for the false bottom idea, if you use this method I'd be interested as to how well it works and what problems you incurred.
Also I'd be interested to know if you plant any tropical mosses and any successes with these.
Good luck.
cheers arthur


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## pied pythons (Jan 18, 2008)

Yep...I'll be starting out with just one species...and once I'm more experienced have a think about mixing...although I've got other tanks I can use if I wish to keep other species.

I'm going, hopefully, for a very naturalistic set up...living substrate, moss, plenty of plants, etc etc...

I'll have to do a bit of research regarding mosses...if you can recommend any I'd be grateful... And yes, I'll keep everyone updated.

It may not be a few months yet until it's completed...it may not be a few weeks yet before it even gets underway...but that's just the nature of projects like this, as you'll all know


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

pied pythons said:


> Yep...I'll be starting out with just one species...and once I'm more experienced have a think about mixing...although I've got other tanks I can use if I wish to keep other species.
> 
> I'm going, hopefully, for a very naturalistic set up...living substrate, moss, plenty of plants, etc etc...
> 
> ...


I can never get mos to grow, stupid moss


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Me too.even went on a moss forum and still couldn't grow it.
cheers arthur.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Moss is evil  ive had sooooo many problems in the past. Sphagnum seems to be the most difficult to grow in the vivarium which surprises me considering its basically an immortal plant! Ive had hit-and-miss luck with koyoto moss spores, although when it does germinate its absolutely beautiful. The tropical sheet/pillow moss seems to grow quite well, as does java moss in my experience - but it rarely 'grows', it tends to just stay alive and nice and green but in exactly the same size and shape as it was when i first put it in there!!


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

chondro13 said:


> Moss is evil  ive had sooooo many problems in the past. Sphagnum seems to be the most difficult to grow in the vivarium which surprises me considering its basically an immortal plant! Ive had hit-and-miss luck with koyoto moss spores, although when it does germinate its absolutely beautiful. The tropical sheet/pillow moss seems to grow quite well, as does java moss in my experience - but it rarely 'grows', it tends to just stay alive and nice and green but in exactly the same size and shape as it was when i first put it in there!!


yep that my experience. I had a lovly square of jave moss for a year, it never got bigger just did exactly the same thing and be green. then when i moved the tank around it died


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## beastluke (Sep 27, 2008)

*mixing*

you shouldnt realy mix morphs let alone species. when i was young i found this out the hard way and had over 300 quid worth of darts dead within months. mixing just creats stress on the phibs and one or both species/morph will stop eating, hide then eventually die
it is highly frowned upon in the hobby unless the 2 secies are proven to get along with eachother and if the tank/viv is big enouph for the two species. when in a single species tank, you should have 10 gal per frog but in a mixed tank it should be 15-20 gal per frog because they need this additional space to avoid eachother. darts arnt a social animal and in the wild you will not find two species just chillin in the same bromelia. so thats why i think its a bad idea to mix ever, also each species has its own unique toxin just like each venomous snake has a unique venom. so they will kill eachother without even touching!!!!!! the most similar two species i can think of which have had success mixing is the d.tinctorius and the d.tinctorius azureus


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

beastluke said:


> you shouldnt realy mix morphs let alone species. when i was young i found this out the hard way and had over 300 quid worth of darts dead within months. mixing just creats stress on the phibs and one or both species/morph will stop eating, hide then eventually die
> it is highly frowned upon in the hobby unless the 2 secies are proven to get along with eachother and if the tank/viv is big enouph for the two species. when in a single species tank, you should have 10 gal per frog but in a mixed tank it should be 15-20 gal per frog because they need this additional space to avoid eachother. darts arnt a social animal and in the wild you will not find two species just chillin in the same bromelia. so thats why i think its a bad idea to mix ever, also each species has its own unique toxin just like each venomous snake has a unique venom. so they will kill eachother without even touching!!!!!! the most similar two species i can think of which have had success mixing is the d.tinctorius and the d.tinctorius azureus



I agree with most of what your saying however i would NOT mix other tincs with tinc azureus... this is beacuse they will hybridize. Also darts dont really have any problems with another species toxins - i know a chap on the dendro forums who has kept species with terribilis which (i believe) are the most toxic darts out there, these were also WC (considerably stronger toxins) with no adverse effects to the other darts at all. The biggest problems with mixing species is bullying, competition, differences in optimal conditions/habitats, and hybridization.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

In nature no species is ever alone, generally there will be several species in one area, so those stress levels are natural and has come about from millions of years of evolution.Every animal on earth is subjected to these minor stresses and is built to cope and will adapt when they need to.
I think,(my opinion) that this low level stress leads to more natural behaviour and keeps an animal alert.
There are animals that cannot be mixed of course, mostly large animals and very aggressive ones or perhaps give off toxins that harm other species.
i would say that those who are against the very idea of mixing are a bit conservative. That's not an insult, just that mixing some species together is here to stay, that many people have done this successfully and the inquiring mind should look at the successes and want to know about failures. Build some sound knowledge of species mixing.

Community type vivs is the hobby advancing, that people are concerned about natural environments, it's an aim at perfection, I think because in the last ten years the environment is something people are concerned about and this is being applied to our reptiles environment. It means we are thinking more deeply about what is required for a natural viv that is also a community viv.

Also, there is a lot more equipment about for controlling small environments, so it's natural that people will want to use it to the full.

cheers arthur.


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## beastluke (Sep 27, 2008)

*haha*

thanks chondro for stealing my thunder lol


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

I think that moss we find in Britain need to be cool, too cool for a tropical viv,I did try some tropical moss and it didn't survive, any successes out there.
cheers arthur.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Lol sorry beastluke!! Most of what you said are definitely wise ideas - if in doubt, dont mix : victory:

Arthur cooke i have had success with tropical pillow moss and java moss but it doesnt 'grow' it merely survives and stays the same size and shape. Nice and green though...


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

chondro13 said:


> Lol sorry beastluke!! Most of what you said are definitely wise ideas - if in doubt, dont mix : victory:
> 
> Arthur cooke i have had success with tropical pillow moss and java moss but it doesnt 'grow' it merely survives and stays the same size and shape. Nice and green though...


Natural UK moss just dies lol. 

Sheet moss dies even quicker then uk moss

Java moss keeps nice and grean in a lovly 6x6 area but doesnt do anything apart from infest my tank with bloody slugs. 

Pillow moss i am yet to try so i take your word and hope it surrives. Also need to get hold of some of those spores you recomended and try those


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

My most successful moss was saliginella, you can find in any garden centre. I think it survived because it had some real light, daylight. It just suddenly died. I even managed to get lawn grass growing in that particular viv. But that too gave up the ghost after a few months.

My feeling is that the failure is something to do with light.
cheers arthur.


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