# Split Posts On Request



## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

Well after a quick scan...and i say quick, i think i may even be with the people that are lobbying against us in certain respects.

Surely they are only trying to do what is best by the animals? After seeing the condition some people keep their reps in it's no wonder...


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

BELIAL said:


> Well after a quick scan...and i say quick, i think i may even be with the people that are lobbying against us in certain respects.
> 
> Surely they are only trying to do what is best by the animals? After seeing the condition some people keep their reps in it's no wonder...


That's great then. Let them come and take them all away because some people are not able to keep them properly.


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

ratboy said:


> That's great then. Let them come and take them all away because some people are not able to keep them properly.


I said certain respects. No one will ever take the animals away whilst there is an industry and money exchanging hands. I do think people are getting worked up over something that has been on going for the last 10 years (that i know of) and prob before that even. 

The amount of households that have a reptile of some sort is huge and a ban is just not logistically feasable. Certain people may be making the right noises but thats all it is...noise.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

If you read all the threads rather than scanning through them you may find the effect of a possible 'ban' has been discussed at some length.

What, for example, if they ban keeping of certain reptiles like they are doing for the european species ? what if they ban imports of live animals ? what if they ban Mice and Rats being used as food for other animals ? or live insects being fed to Lizards ?

Read the AWA Belial any one or all of the above could happen in the future and would contribute towards the end of this hobby. 

Yes it's been talked about for 10 years. But the AWA is now law and 10 years ago people were sitting around saying that would never happen either.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

how sad...

how does that phrase go..

"with friends like these, who needs enemies..."

its your sort of attitude that re-inforces the hammer knocking those nails in the coffin of keeping..

just because YOU cannot be arsed and have no ambition for the future of keeping, does not, thank god, mean we all feel the same..

N


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Belial, if you don't mind me asking, what species do you keep?


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Athravan said:


> I tried to contribute in the beginning, but it seems to me like any discussion on here is merely going around in circles, the thread I do not think will really make any difference to the political people who matter, I can't help but think that the offers of help will be ignored.
> 
> So, I'm reading, and have contributed, but am not convinced that anything said here will make a blind bit of difference.


I have to agree with this. I haven't really had time to contribute, but have kept up reading it. Most admit I switched off a bit when it appeared that "fisted" logo (which I just thought was a poor joke for the sake of the thread) appeared to be taken seriously.

My opinion will probably not be a popular one, but I don't think the problem so much is the antis ... it's a problem with the reptile "industry", and a problem with the image we present (or the stereotype we are landed with) to the general public. Antis are only targetting reptiles because they're the easy option, and we're an easy target because we choose to make ourselves an easy target.


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

Nerys said:


> how sad...
> 
> how does that phrase go..
> 
> ...


 i didn't say it did...

Like i did say i honestly wish i could care more but unfortunately either is hasn't sunk in or i feel there is not enough of a threat to get up arms about it...

as the saying goes:

'ignorance is bliss.'


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> Belial, if you don't mind me asking, what species do you keep?


A bit of everything...mostly chams of one sort or another but i have an ecletic taste....i know where you are going with this one so fire away! maybe this will be motivation for me...


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

BELIAL said:


> A bit of everything...mostly chams of one sort or another but i have an ecletic taste....i know where you are going with this one so fire away! maybe this will be motivation for me...


I'm just wondering if you've got any European species, specifically, say, _Chamaeleo chamaeleo_?

Or any CITES/COTES listed species - particularly the currently unregulated (for purchases within the EU) Annex B?


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

nope but thought that would come up....:smile: funnily enough i have none on the list...how would it effect me if i did?


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

as our saying goes...

Ignorance is not an acceptable epitaph!

stand up for the right to keep the animals you love..

as i say in my bio, my fight is against:

*Those who challenge our privilege to live and work with the animals we love, and those who, through poor husbandry and conditions, do genuine keepers no justice*

who, amongst us, would honestly not think the same?

N


BELIAL said:


> i didn't say it did...
> 
> Like i did say i honestly wish i could care more but unfortunately either is hasn't sunk in or i feel there is not enough of a threat to get up arms about it...
> 
> ...


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

BELIAL said:


> nope but thought that would come up....:smile: funnily enough i have none on the list...how would it effect me if i did?


in simple terms, if you did have, and could not prove they were captive bred, you would have to have them killed.. thats how it would affect you!

N


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

> *Those who challenge our privilege to live and work with the animals we love, and those who, through poor husbandry and conditions, do genuine keepers no justice*


I would have to say i am inclined to agree...but is that challenge great enough to warrent to active talk at the moment? Surely the last part is what the lobbyists and the AWA is trying to do? Would it not be better to work with rather than against?


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

many of the lobbiest believe in the idea that "reptiles are better off dead, than in glass coffins"

tbh, i prefer to work with people who believe that you CAN keep pets and animals in captivity, rather than those who think wild or dead is the way to go..

sure we need to work with the AWA, we have no choice, but if the AWA is strictly speaking unworkable.. then where do we go?

how do you tell Ssthisto, that its "right" that she has to have two of her pets killed, purely because some power to be has said that unless she can prove their origin, she has no right to keep them?

would her pets be better of dead, than in glass coffins? i think not..

you can only work with someone who has reason, and only work with something, that has reason.. where reason has been overlooked, i would rather write my own hymn sheet, than sing to someone elses.


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

I find it hard to fight my point when i do not know enough in all honesty...

I think i may well have to do more than skim and then maybe i can be more informed in my opinions...

Looks like i may have some reading to do.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*In your defense....Belial*

There is an awful amount to learn, however as the thread responses to Chris Newman has and continue to show, communications and informations have been poor.

And of course no offense meant, but l feel it may have been better to have not just quickly scanned the content and passed a judgemental comment.

The reason l requested the original thread to be split was due to the length that it was becoming and therefore becoming very offputting to the readers.

R


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

thank you for at least being willing to start 

too many people are sitting on the fence, or sitting on their hands, believing that there is no problem, or that it will never happen to them, or that it will all just wash over them.. and many of us are beginning to think this is NOT the case..

look at hunting, they said it would never be banned. it is

look at smoking.. look how much money the government make from it, they said on that fact alone, a smoking ban would never come in.. it has..

we are now unable to keep EU species, unless we can prove where they came from, and who in all honesty can prove the status, for instance, of a leopard rat snake they got two years ago from a show from a private breeder ??? no-one can. 

i would guesstimate that 75% + of the EU species kept in captivity in the country, come from un-verified stocks.. under the new laws, technically 75% of EU species held in the UK are now legally required to be destroyed.

HOW, pray tell, just HOW is that "good" for keeping and animal welfare??

people keep blathering on about it not happening. but it IS. what is it going to take for people to wake up see this?? 

there are people on this forum whose animals may have to be KILLED or risk being branded a criminal.. how is that "progress"

and its not scare mongering. that is HARD FACT. cold, light of day FACT..

no more.. "it won't happen" or "it won't happen to me" it IS happening already, right under the unsuspecting noses of the majority of keepers.

the folorn masses who call themselves animal lovers, are being beaten by apathy from within.

in a way, you are right, its not the lobbiest we have to fear, its our own lack of motivation to protect and fight for the hobby we love.

how many people, in years to come, will be thinking, "shit.. maybe i should have done something back then..."

ignorance is not bliss.. ignorance is murder..










N


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> And of course no offense meant, but l feel it may have been better to have not just quickly scanned the content and passed a judgemental comment.
> 
> R


no offense taken...

however it is not the content or the length of the threads i find hard to digest it is the idea of them. I must say i am quite new to the 'computer' world of reptiles but i have been working with reptiles for over 10 years and this talk has always been going on. Yes there have been some battles won by the 'otherside' of late but does that make this as urgent as people make out?

If it does then i apologise and would be the first to help anyway i could. I just cannot see it. 

I will go have a read of some bits and i hope my opinions change for the better. For the moment though i feel that banning shows and putting limits on reptiles kept and how they are kept is of benefit to the animals. 

At the end of the day how can we call ourselves animal 'lovers' when we do not take their quality of life as our main concern?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

BELIAL said:


> nope but thought that would come up....:smile: funnily enough i have none on the list...how would it effect me if i did?


If you own chameleons, you probably do own animals on CITES/COTES Annex B/Appendix 2....

All _Bradypodion_ species
All _Brookesia _species except _Brookesia perarmata_ (which is CITES Appendix 1)
All _Calumma_ species
All _Chamaeleo_ species
All _Furcifer _species

What happens when they try to introduce the same legislation as they have with the European Species - to regulate and license the Annex B animals, who have NEVER been regulated before and who generally don't have any sort of proof of legal origin unless you've imported from outside the EU?


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

exactly... little by little, they are removing our ability to be able to keep species... how long before the next wave of legislation?

N


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> If you own chameleons, you probably do own animals on CITES/COTES Annex B/Appendix 2....
> 
> All _Bradypodion_ species
> All _Brookesia _species except _Brookesia perarmata_ (which is CITES Appendix 1)
> ...


I side skipped the cites bit as i knew this would also come up...i own most of those yes. Has it really come to the point though that the animals have to be killed if not proven? If we do not register how will they know? If we do register surely they cannot justify the death of innocent animals?


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

when you hold the belief that an animal is better off dead, than in captivity.. then yes. killing an "innocent" animal, is seen as being better for it...

great eh! how to really screw us all over in one quick move..

the law, as the say, is the law, they cannot have one for some, and another for the rest.. if your animal is on the list, and you cannot prove you did not take it from the wild. then thats that, job done.

N


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

That does indeed seem rather blunt...


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

BELIAL said:


> I side skipped the cites bit as i knew this would also come up...i own most of those yes. Has it really come to the point though that the animals have to be killed if not proven? If we do not register how will they know? If we do register surely they cannot justify the death of innocent animals?


That's what everyone thought before the EPS regulations came in.

I can't prove the origin of two of my animals.

If I apply for a license, and fail to get it, they know I've got them and they could come and take them away - and prosecute me for owning illegal animals. And if they do, they're likely to euthanise them.

If I don't apply for a license, and someone reports me, they're probably going to confiscate the animals while they prosecute me... and what's to say they won't euthanise them then... especially since I can't financially afford to fight for them.

By that token... taking them to my vet and having them put down without getting dragged through the courts and risking the REST of my collection if anyone decides they'd like to confiscate those too .... looks positively rosy.


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> That's what everyone thought before the EPS regulations came in.
> 
> I can't prove the origin of two of my animals.
> 
> ...


kinda a catch 22 then...


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

yes, instead of shooting you themselves, they are handing you a loaded gun and asking you to volunteer to do it to yourself.

how kind of them... 

:blowup:

one wonders how many EU species will now be seen living wild in the UK, i know people who would rather release into the wild than see their beloved animals killed (and yes, thats breaking the law too)

N


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

BELIAL said:


> Well after a quick scan...and i say quick, i think i may even be with the people that are lobbying against us in certain respects.
> 
> Surely they are only trying to do what is best by the animals? After seeing the condition some people keep their reps in it's no wonder...


********* As a moderator i would have thought you would have more sense than to post shit like that. Go and read the stuff on the PKL website (link in N's siggy), then come back and tell us if your views have changed. Its all very well saying stuff about bad keepers etc, but the anti's tend to tar everyone with the same crap stained brush.


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

eeji said:


> ******** As a moderator i would have thought you would have more sense than to post shit like that. Go and read the stuff on the PKL website (link in N's siggy), then come back and tell us if your views have changed. Its all very well saying stuff about bad keepers etc, but the anti's tend to tar everyone with the same crap stained brush.


I am entitled to my opinion and i do not think that i am in the wrong for having it.


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

my point is that once the anti's get their teeth into a story, or quotes such as yours, then they don't let go. They will completely rip it to shreds and blow it up out of all proportion which makes the good keepers look bad to. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but I feel this is the wrong place to air that opinion.


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

But it's not!? surely this is the best place...i can just see it from their point of view slightly which i not a bad thing. A bit of empathy can go a long way. Yes there are the stringent extremists that say NO all the way the way but there is also the camp that say there can be a happy medium.

Just for the record i DO NOT appreciate being called a C**k and i can guarantee that if i were not behind a computer you would not be saying it.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

closed while i sort something


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*In fairness again...*

Hi, 

In fairness again, yes, in the position of 'moderator' should he have chosen to view that opinion? Well of course.

At the end of the day, correct or incorrect, everyone has the right to voice their opinion.

Is it completely Belials' fault to not know the legislation protocol?

In some cases sadly yes, there are threads on here that have been here for some sufficient time to allow all readers to 'read up'. In another way, just because he is a moderator and in the eyes of some should know better, does not readily apply itself.

If he had come on board as a normal keeper and voiced his opinion, he would have also suffered the same fate by the writers, because however he is a mod, it is assumed incorrectly that 'mods' should be aware of all the current legislation - why?

They are just mods, they are not political mods nor editors, nor legislational operatives, they are just writers and readers the same as you, except they are here to exercise caution and regulate threads.

Eeji, your first post replicated my original thoughts exactly, but having thought further upon it, l now stand by my post he is in reality no different to a normal keeper. Many keepers are apparently waking up to a smell of coffee, that has been overbrewing for some time, and now needs to be refreshed.

That is all this problem is.

The antis may well 'rip' his comments apart, but l doubt it. I saw a cartoon today that basically said give them enough rope and they will hang themselves, this actually applies to who has the rope. Currently due to a lack of qualitable information and direction and motivation. We have a very large surplus of 'twine' at our disposal.

The ethos here to 'mods' is to display your personal opinions perhaps a little more cautiously, but to all keepers - learn about the problems before ignoring them.

Rory Matier


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## SuperTed (Apr 19, 2007)

i think we definatly need to do something about it because when it hits it will hit hard then all of a sudden people will open there eyes and think "s**t" 

on a funny note : (i first read the title as spit roasts on request :lol2


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

I have one of the larger private collections on this forum and so have more to lose than most. However i still stand by my opinions they are at the end of the day how i feel....


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

In some ways I can understand Belial's post, I think he could have worded it better, but the fact is we ALL (well 99% of those I know) try to keep our animals in the best way possible.

We all see them as pets, we are all attatched to them, love them, get sad when they are ill or hurt.

We all want the best, and go a long way to provide it.

HOWEVER, the basic disagreement, as has already been voiced, it that whilst we belive we can provide a safe suitable enviroment for them, and provide a rich quaility of life, and that captivity does have a place in conservation, the other side dont. full stop, they want to end it all.

Beats me what they will fight for if that ever happens, but sure they will find something else !

Whilst the AWA does contain new laws as to how to keep our pets, I would think most of us already excede these , and are happy to do so, so that in its self is not a real problem.

Having to prove the origins of animals obtained often years ago when there was no requirement to do so at the time, well thats plain impossible.

Our Lacerta was a direct rehome from our local RSPCA, over 2 years ago, we called them today, do you think they even knew what we were talking about ? yeah right !

Its the EPS and the likes that we HAVE to understand and stand up to before its law. After, its to late. Right now, as others have said, the animals are doomed ! simple as, register with no proof and fail, have animal removed, dont register, get raided and animal removed. great choices eh?

Yes, these things have been banded about for years, Last week saw an estimated 400,000 european animals given a death sentance ! just last week !not some point in the past and it didnt happen, not some distant date in the future when were all dead and gone, but last week.

We can only wonder whats on the menu for next week !

Unless we start writing that menu....


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

now that i get...well said.


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

PM sent.


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

Could someone post a official link where is says that our hobby is under threat? I have been looking for the past couple hours and i can't seem to find anything that says animals will be killed. All i can see is that shows will be cancelled, keeping primates stopped and change to keeping european species. I am not being pedantic i am trying to furthur myself as i am not keyed up on the law and want to be. Any help would be appreciated. Cheers.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Official enough?*

Hi Ian, 

You wont find anything from our government nor defra, but read this website:

FOCAS: the animal welfare bill

Rory


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Old, but same message*

http://www.livefoodshop.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=34319&st=0&p=365847&#entry365847

Rory


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Of course there are these guys...*

These guys show the 'pet trade' for what it really is.

I would say some of our biggest threats come in from this quarter, but maybe that is just me?

R

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/images/pdf/leaflets/petleaflet.pdf


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*High incomes?*

Again, the opposition are amassing a huge bank roll, for what?

Pro Keepers Lobby | "Left Wing Right Politics!"

Then these Guys have a pretty defined version of things to come:

The Shg for Farmers, Pet Owners and Others Experiencing Difficulties with the RSPCA


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*And then there is the gang*

Of course if none of those help, here are some of the the most pro-active against the keeping of animals, pets, cows, ants, basically anything really.

You tend to really have fun with these sites!

Pro Keepers Lobby | "Left Wing Right Politics!"

R


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

I read the FOCAS one...couldn't see anything mentioned about banning reps just primates and shows. Which to be fair i do not have a problem with. The animal aid one is just trying to stop WC animals and 'impulse' buys. Surely this is a good thing?

Nothing i have seen so far had mentioned animals will be killed or keeping reptiles will be abolished. Obviously there will always be people that are extreme and will say 'better dead than captive' but this appears to be a minority. An affiliated organisation cannot adopt this approach else they would lose the support of the masses. They cannot cater to the few extremists for fear of losing public support. 

I believe in the preservation of a species but if this is at the cost of hundreds of thousands of reptile lives each year then this is too high. Shipping in WC animals is atrocious. The amount that die is ridiculously high. I have seen both sides of this from the exportation to the recieving at this end and the losses in every case were almost too much to bear. 

The duty of care bill helps to estabilish a medium for those keepers that have their reptiles in atrocious conditions and give reptile keeping a bad name. Surely we should be doing everything in our power to prove there are caring keepers out there that know their animals and do not just care about turning a quick buck...I am very passionate about my animals and this may be my failing as i often care too much.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Also...*

In some respects, one could argue that the codes of conduct are a complete verification that our hobby is under threat.

An ant farm, now needs to be the size of a modern plasma television set.

A cat, now needs complete and utter privacy to be able to crap. You can not watch!

There are no such things as naturally overweight animals, like Garfield - ooh no, totally unacceptable, now they must all be ultra slim.

Even cyber pets must now be bigger.

But hey, it is no longer acceptable either to keep your snake in a natural environment viv, now you must award them a space the size of your garage.

Okay the latter is a bit excessive, or is it?

Mmm

R


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*You can never..*

...care too much!

Also, just because you do not own primates, does not offer much support to the genuine keepers who do, does it?

I am in agreeance with the responsible care guides placed on all keepers' animals, but l do assure you the hobby is under serious threat.

But l might be biased.

For ten years plus silent legislational operatives have been working on the political side of our hobby. Chris Newman chooses to tell people what he is doing, others do not.

Chris is one man, as said before many times, and the ground units politically are very slim.

The biggest err here is that for many, many, way too many years, the back bone of this indusry has in many respects been kept in the dark about the politics and legislation approaching, when they should have been correctly and properly informed from the offset.

But hey, these things are life.

Now when the shite is starting to hit the fan, all hell is breaking loose.

Confusion, lack of communications, confusing and conflicting communications! Heck, where does one start?

We have to start at the bottom of the programme and start to educate.

Just my opinion of course.

Rory


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

Surely giving space to animals should be a keepers primary concern. They should have a natural environment as possible. Yes some of the ideals may be a bit far fetched but is the sentiment not good?

Do you keep reptiles Rory? If so wouldn't you want to give them the best quality of life possible?

There is a lot of talk about stand up for your hobby and fight for your rights but less about working in co-operation with these organisations and people. Surely they are not that bigoted?


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

I do agree that 'knowledge is power' and the more educated and politically aware keepers are the better chance they have of fighting a cause. Maybe it is the manner this is done that dis-heartens me? Or maybe the cause is not at the point that the fight needs to be taken to the masses. 

Educate away no one can EVER no too much. I for one will be the first to have that thirst for knowledge if it can be provided. But do not cause panic in a community that is scared it may lose all right to own reptiles as i do not see this ever happening.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*It is a shame...*

...that it is just you and l enjoying conversation on this subject Ian, for it is a valid argument that you place forwards.

I do agree with animals being given and awarded the right space to live in of course, there are no many genuine keepers that do not feel this way.

Do l keep reptiles, no not yet, l keep other mammals.

But l try and look at both sides also.

I am often called an anti because of my views, so l can see where you are coming from.

I think all responsible keepers will and should have anti views, it makes them human.

Are the opposition bigoted?

Yes they are, they are unswaying in their determinations to ensure that pet keeping, exotic keeping and so on is banned full stop, or severely restricted.

My fist caused some controversy, it was loud and direct.

The antis do not need to be this direct, they have the finances of comfort and we do not - having said this some of their campaigns are very well directed by the most superb marketing agencies, so they are very good at subliminal coercion.

Do they really want what is best?

Of course they do, and that would be 'we don't keep' as we can never recreate the natural environment with its - um let me see - hunters, bulldozers, predators, man, environmental and toxic waste, logging - oh sorry, that is just me thinking aloud - ah that is right, we can never recreate natural space for the animal.

I do often wonder what happens when they have succeeded, what ever could be next for them?

MMM?

How about the RSPCA running for DEFRA?

In many respects, most of the antis have very similiar views to that of the pro's, we just can not seemingly agree upon them, hell if we could work together then we would be fighting the governments and not each other - for they are our biggest enemy all told.

R


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

BELIAL said:


> Could someone post a official link where is says that our hobby is under threat? I have been looking for the past couple hours and i can't seem to find anything that says animals will be killed. All i can see is that shows will be cancelled, keeping primates stopped and change to keeping european species. I am not being pedantic i am trying to furthur myself as i am not keyed up on the law and want to be. Any help would be appreciated. Cheers.


Quite simply, the EPS legislation means:

1. It would be difficult to impossible for me to prove legal origin for two of my animals. Without proof of origin, I cannot obtain a license for them.
2. Owning them without a license makes me liable to prosecution and the animals being confiscated.

Now, if they confiscate the animals and I can't win the case to get them back (and you can bet I can't financially afford to fight for them, not and keep the rest of my critters happy and healthy), what are they going to do with them? 

1. They can't sell them to anyone else, because they don't have proof of legal origin to obtain a license.
2. They can't give them to anyone else, because the other person doesn't have proof of legal origin to obtain a license.
3. They can't re-release the animals because they're not native, nor do they know where they were collected, and they've been in a personal collection with other species for an unknown amount of time, rendering them unfit for release.
4. They CAN however euthanise them... especially the older one, who has some health issues... including vet-induced heat stress neurological damage.

So what are they most likely to do if they take them away? Euthanise them.


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

> So what are they most likely to do if they take them away? Euthanise them.


If this is the case then i would fight tooth and nail...have you spoken to them about this? Without filling in the registration form? There are a couple numbers you can call i believe. 

I simple cannot justify the killing of innnocent animals and i do not think they could either. There has to be some lee way in this and i do not think it is a closed case by any feat of the imagination.

Rory: I can see you are quite passionate about this topic and i too enjoy a bit of healthy debate. I would not want the hobby to cease. I care deeply about my animals and they are without doubt the most important thing in my life. I do think that maybe there are things we should be doing that we are not? A unified front with animal protection groups would be a much better goal than a 'war'. 

The hobby may be changing but i can only see the animals benefiting from the change. It is selfish of us to not put their welfare first.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Peace not war*

Of course, 

Politics does restrict what we can do, for it now dominates - internal and external political conflict and apathy are our biggest enemys - hell, to be honest, the antis are not really that visible at present - we are destroying ourselves.

PKL membership displays that irrelevant to what species you keep, keepers can unite under one fraternity roof, reptile and canine, canine and mammal can unite. But with species specific societies which are currently present, there is way too much internal conflict politically.

Peace not war...mmm, it is an interesting concept, and one which could prove beneficial if it was allowed to work.

Pro keepers are compromising, we would try and seek the easier option, and that is not a bad thing, sadly those that oppose are as said unswerving in what they believe in, grimly determined, powerful and effectively networked.

I respect them, they have had it together for years, we are stumbling now trying to match that.

A unified front would be ideal, but currently in many respects we can not even achieve that with what we have let alone, trying to incorporate into the equation those that do not even agree with the keeping of exotic species.

As pro keepers, 99% of us do put the welfare first as do the antis. But their welfare argument is different to ours.

It is simple Ian.

Ideal welfare for animals means they do not want you to keep exotics in the first place.

Sorry.

rory


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Justification of the killing of confiscated animals would simply be a matter of what do they do with them ?

They cannot keep them as that is illegal. They cannot release them as that is illegal. 

Killing them is the only option left.


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

> Ideal welfare for animals means they do not want you to keep exotics in the first place.


Ultimately you may be correct and it would be a sad state of affairs if keeping exotic animals is banned. I just cannot see this happening.

The herpotological world is stronger than has ever been. The popularity of exotics is on the rise with more households having some sort of reptile. Whether that be a corn snake or a caiman..

There will always be legislation. There will always be opposition. There will always be support. It is the combination of all three that will ultimately decide the fate of herpotology.


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

ratboy said:


> Justification of the killing of confiscated animals would simply be a matter of what do they do with them ?
> 
> They cannot keep them as that is illegal. They cannot release them as that is illegal.
> 
> Killing them is the only option left.


But is it? There are always ways round things. You just have find them. Maybe this is where the education part comes into play?


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

BELIAL said:


> But is it? There are always ways round things. You just have find them. Maybe this is where the education part comes into play?


What other physical options are there ?

They either give it back, Keep it, release it or destroy it.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

BELIAL said:


> If this is the case then i would fight tooth and nail...have you spoken to them about this? Without filling in the registration form? There are a couple numbers you can call i believe.


Yes, I have spoken to DEFRA about this. They *would not* tell me what they would do to the animals they confiscated from owners without licenses. They wouldn't even tell me what the best course of action was when it comes to animals that were imported years ago and have passed, unregulated, through several pairs of hands to fall into the lap of their current owners with these new regulations.



> I simple cannot justify the killing of innnocent animals and i do not think they could either. There has to be some lee way in this and i do not think it is a closed case by any feat of the imagination.
> 
> The hobby may be changing but i can only see the animals benefiting from the change. It is selfish of us to not put their welfare first.


Of course Chumley and Tananda will benefit from being yanked out of my house, put into temporary holding while they prosecute me with fines and court costs that might risk knocking my house out from under me, then euthanised when I can't afford to fight any more. So will the rest of my reptiles - when they come to take away Chum and Tanda, they might well notice that *gasp* my corns are not kept in five-foot vivs. Three-foot for an adult, yes. Five, no. 

Yes, the EPS legislation would have been GOOD for the animals if it had:

1. Grandfathered in ALL animals owned in the UK before the changes became law, whether or not they have proof of origin.
2. Had introduced specimen-specific paperwork for all new imports after 2007 to prove they were LEGAL and came from outside the EU or were captive bred in the EU.
3. Made it possible to register animals that were CB in the UK - and the "grandfathered" animals.


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

I do feel what you are saying...and i know there are others in same boat as you..there must be a loophole somewhere? law is never watertight...


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

BELIAL said:


> I do feel what you are saying...and i know there are others in same boat as you..there must be a loophole somewhere? law is never watertight...


Yes. The loophole is that they can't prosecute you for not having a license... they can only prosecute you for having illegal animals. However... until an animal is PROVEN legal... it's an illegal one and subject to confiscation.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I was thinking about this today...if people are sure that this may happen i.e. the confiscation and euthanisation of reptiles should we be carrying on breeding them for the time being? Is it responsible to keep breeding reptiles that ultimately may be taken and killed? I hope not. 

I am all for animal welfare and want there to be some sort of regulation to stop the people who mistreat animals and do not treat them well from keeping animals at all. Obviously I do not want pet keeping banned altogether though but there is plenty of ammunition for the anti's out there so in my opinion i think we should concentrate on promoting the hobby i.e. correct husbandry, conservation of species etc. The only way they will stop us and our hobby is if we keep giving them ammo to use against us.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Nice to say conservation of species when the likely result of the EPS legislation - designed to help conserve wild populations of the species - is that hundreds of thousands of captive animals - some of which might be in breeding programs - will be euthanised or released or kept hidden in potentially sub-par conditions because people can't afford the risk of giving them the space they need and having them on show.

I had hoped to breed MY EPS animals. No chance of that now.


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