# Raccoons



## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

Hey all, I saw Rory's post in the classifieds section. I would like to clarify now that I have no intention of purchasing a racoon as I wouldn't have the first idea of how to look after one :lol2:

However, I'm a bit o a sponge when it comes to learning about animals and I really enjoy it so off I went to research them. I learnt lots about raccoons in the wild, but found very little on raccoons in captivity. 

I read that they're very destructive, they like to run off with anything that looks interesting and that they can get moody and bite people but that's about it :lol2:

I was just wondering if any of you lovely people knew anything about their care? For example what sort of housing do they need? What do they eat? How is their temprement(sp?) etc..or basically just anything you know :lol2: Thank you very much :notworthy:


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## JPReptiles (Dec 2, 2007)

spider_duck said:


> Hey all, I saw Rory's post in the classifieds section. I would like to clarify now that I have no intention of purchasing a racoon as I wouldn't have the first idea of how to look after one :lol2:
> 
> However, I'm a bit o a sponge when it comes to learning about animals and I really enjoy it so off I went to research them. I learnt lots about raccoons in the wild, but found very little on raccoons in captivity.
> 
> ...




On - TSKA there is a care guide, not one for keeping them indoors though.

If you do ever wish to own a raccoon i would advise a lot of research beforehand.

On the link above there is a page that says [raccoon attack] i would read that and see what you think.

I have contemplated many times of keeping raccoons as a exotic, but i always decide against the idea. Not that i feel they should not be kept, just the fact of what can go wrong.

John


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

hi, 

Since moving to the new website, l am still having to get used to the editing tools on/in it.

The site is still awaiting the inclusion of the galleries [many thanks to those who supplied photos of your animals, they will be up soon] and of course there is content work to be done with the care guides.

Racoon Attack needs to be rewritten and have the photos included, and the actual care guide for racoons does need to be re adressed.

I kept racoons for about 4 years, they were hand reared as youngsters and then lived togather in a pair. The attack came through in hindsight, my own negligence - and whilst initially l thought they were responsible, that is an immediate reaction, l was responsible.

My male had become sexually active through age, and l stupidly touched the female, although ironically what triggered him, was me pulling back a twenty pound note he had pulled out of my pocket!

Racoons as a pair as in male and female together, should be kept outside in a suitably sized enclosure, racoons as singles, l believe could be kept as a house exotic, and l know quite a few keepers who have this set up. This is not saying that they can not be kept outside anymore than they can be kept indoors, but it is saying that there should be an alternative style of housing if they are to be classed as a house exotic, for the times that the owner is not present.

I will shortly rewrite the care guide for the keeping of racoons in both indoor as well as outdoor keeping.

R


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## JPReptiles (Dec 2, 2007)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> hi,
> 
> Since moving to the new website, l am still having to get used to the editing tools on/in it.
> 
> ...


That would be very interesting,

Thanks.

John


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## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

Thanks guys  Just read the care guide and the raccoon attack on TSKA, wouldn't fancy being mauled by one myself, sounds scary! 

One of the things I read on an American website was that the owners had to purchase public liability insurance in case the raccoon bit a visitor, now I know why!

They're very interesting and intelligent animals, but I wouldn't personally trust an animal that could turn so quickly roaming around the house :lol2:

I look forward to seeing the updates 

Very grateful to you : victory::notworthy:


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## JPReptiles (Dec 2, 2007)

spider_duck said:


> Thanks guys  Just read the care guide and the raccoon attack on TSKA, wouldn't fancy being mauled by one myself, sounds scary!
> 
> One of the things I read on an American website was that the owners had to purchase public liability insurance in case the raccoon bit a visitor, now I know why!
> 
> ...


 
Thats not a problem mate,

I would love nothing more than to keep raccons, but the thing that always discourages me is the fact they are able to turn so quickly and do a sufficient amount of damage.

John


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## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

Same here, although saying that I plan on getting a DWA and owning a caiman in the very distant future :lol2: But I suppose at least with a caiman you KNOW it'll be nasty haha. As for raccoons, Id rather get a ferret or (also in the future) a skunk


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

I used to keep and work with Raccoons.... i helped to hand-rear a baby... which came to live with me after they came off DWA...

I would just like to say that, IMO they should of never come off the DWA due to them having tremendous jaw pressure and incredible agility...

People seem to be having more interest now they arnt on the DWA, and its quite scary...

PM me if you want more info

Thanks

Dec


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## JPReptiles (Dec 2, 2007)

Declan123 said:


> I used to keep and work with Raccoons.... i helped to hand-rear a baby... which came to live with me after they came off DWA...
> 
> I would just like to say that, IMO they should of never come off the DWA due to them having tremendous jaw pressure and incredible agility...
> 
> ...


I would have to agree with you, with regards to them being taken off the DWA. They must have been on it for a reason.

I do not think peolpe should not keep them as they are a wonderfull species.

John


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## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

completely agree with them being taken off the DWA, silly thing to do really :S out of interest does anyone know WHY they were taken off?


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

*nasty bite*

I really dont see a problem with them coming off dwa,there are plenty of breeds of dogs that can be purchased much easier for any twit twit to own,they could and do cause far more damage.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

They were brought off licence, because they were considered not to be dangerous.

I too agree that they should have stayed on, and in the same breath whilst l can see what animalsbeebee is saying. I think that some of the more dangerous breeds of dog should be licenced.

A host of animals were pulled off licence and l believe this was a bad move, but many battled for this to occur - fine in some standards but exceedingly poor judgement in others - with no contingency to be placed in its stead such as a private keeper licence.

However we live in a society that demands more deregulation and freedom, whilst this is fine, regulation and registration is there for a reason.

But in recent times l have heard that there are only reputed to be 83 DWA's currently in the UK, well this is absurd, there may well only be 83 recorded DWA's under regulation, but a guaranteed much higher figure of those whom own DWA species without licence.

There is so little enforcement in the UK, with a left government such as labour that wish to try and restrict animal keeping, with a regulation body such as DEFRA that have very little finance to begin with and life is easier if they deregulate, not support enforcement and have very little legislation passed, hardly a wonder that Racoons and other species came off the licence to begin with.

Primates should never have come off, and indeed the marmoset species should have gone on, but for regulation - alas as said with very little enforcement - what difference does it really make if species are under licence or not?

There are always going to be those who will own the species irrespective of whether they are licenced as is classically the case with primates at present - welfare is considered or so it would appear to be secondary in consideration to other affairs.

I have been had by both a racoon and a dog, both were the same pain, and l would wish it on no one. Although the racoon attack lasted longer, but it was not on the street but within the licenced enclosure.

Dog attacks can occur anywhere be they at home or on the street and there is more likely hood of being attacked by a dog than there is of a racoon. But the racoon is now off licence and more keepers want to see racoons in the house, so as time progresses, we might well see attacks from racoons to people on a higher scale.

By then we will have those that opposed licence removals saying that this was inevitable and they should never have been lifted in the first place.

R


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## irwin (Jan 22, 2008)

so what does DWAL stand for DANGEROUS WILD ANIMAL LICENCE 

so does a tamarin or marmoset come under dangerous i think not yes they can bite but is it harder than a rabbit or a ferret

the licence is not supposed to keep people from keeping exotics but to keep people from keeping dangerous animals eerrrrrr lions,tigers,baboons things that could seriously cause u harm


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

I think the DWA licence is a good thing, although i disagree with it being awarded by your local council, i think it should be a from a national database.
it would be easier to keep track of whos got what and are they breeding?

it would also fix the price of the license, so theres no variation on it, because as it stands theres some unreasonable pricing while others pay very little.

I do think there should be a review on what is actually classed as DWA also because ive noticed theres some i would consider to be dangerous that are not on the list and others that really shouldnt be on the list.

Experts should be brought in to maybe review it.


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

too many experts,all have different ideas,in 20 years of having dwa i have never been asked the diets of the animals,which i think is pretty important.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

irwin said:


> so what does DWAL stand for DANGEROUS WILD ANIMAL LICENCE





irwin said:


> so does a tamarin or marmoset come under dangerous i think not yes they can bite but is it harder than a rabbit or a ferret
> 
> the licence is not supposed to keep people from keeping exotics but to keep people from keeping dangerous animals eerrrrrr lions,tigers,baboons things that could seriously cause u harm




Actually Irwin, 

The DWA was more for public safety to be more precise, so it was not destined to be a consideration for not keeping them.

Although some keepers would tell you differently of their own councils.

And as l am sure we have discussed before, you are only too full aware Irwin, that your opinion is not one shared by all primate keepers. Its a break of around 60% in favour of primates staying on licence with 40% wanting to see them off.

But of all the keepers talked to over the years, more preferred to see the marmosets and tamarins, squirrel monkeys not so much on the DWAL but on a registration licence.

In recent times we have been asked to assess what we truly believe to be an accurate figure of 'pet monkey ownership' and what authorities are trying to class as 'genuine primate ownership'.

IFAW would have us believe that there are only 1500 - 3000 primates in the UK in private ownership, but the figures may be somewhat more staggering than that. However without any kind of primate registration in place, these figures will always remain elusive - and to be honest Irwin, l am somewhat shocked at your response, for the theme l was suggesting as l know you have agreed with in the past is that if we want to regulate primate welfare in the United Kingdom, then registration would have been the way forwards.

Okay so the DWAL was/is not the way forwards but having some kind of licence was better than a bullet into the welfare of future private primate keeping.

What private primate keepers wanted to see was a licence that was 

1] overall less expensive than current, for the DWAL in accordance to some keepers can range from as little as £75 - £1800 pending where you are in the UK.

2] Encourage more keepers to actually buy into the licence so as to promote responsible care rather than highlighting irresponsibility.

But of course the DWAL is curently under consultation, and for those whom have not seen the way they wish to take it, then read this

http://tskaexotics.co.uk/consultation.pdf


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## irwin (Jan 22, 2008)

yes it is for the public safety but if a tamarin got out would it do u much harm as say a lion 

i am not saying that primates should not be put on some kind of licence but it all boiles down to the same thing primates in private hands 

yes people keep them in not ideal conditions but this will never be stopped ,no i cant see it,the same as keeping any animal in bad conditions

again primates come up and if we go on this thread will aswell

if they bring in the changes they say they are and regulate the fee then i am sure more people will get a dwal


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Too many councils charge exorbitant prices and set unrealistic "hurdles" in order to not actually issue a licence. There are a lot of councillors that believe wanting a dangerous wild animal immdeiately flags you up as the sort of person who' is unsuitable to have one. With regard to big cats and larger predatory animals, the law was most definitely to protect the public, but in the case of the smaller primates and such it was designed to prevent the animal being kept in unsuitable conditions, spider monkeys in bird cages etc. TBH, speaking from a reptile owners POV, I think the DWAL system is a pile of poo. In some cases the prospective licence holder is asked to almost write his/her own protocol on keeping a particular animal. There is massive differentials between the requirements of different councils. Do you need a viewpoint into the room or not, do you need fire extinguishers inside and out or not, do the Fire Service have to assess your property for ease of rescue or not?


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## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

Personally, I don't think the DWA should be run through the council. There should be a seperate governing body that specialises in exotics, perhaps made up of people who actually have experience with keeping/working with exotics themselves. 

My guess would be that the average councillor that issues licences knows only what they've read in books/researched? At the end of the day you can read and research as much as you like but nothing speaks louder than experience itself.

I also agree with all primates having some sort of license to prove that the keepers will provide them with adequate housing, food and enrichment, and try to eradicate the people who think that beause they saw somebody do it on tv, they can keep them in a small cage inside the house by themselves, dress them up and feed them nothing but bananas.

A lot of things are too readily available these days so long as you pay the right price and it just isnt right. These are not possessions they're intelligent living creatures and hey should be treated as such.

Sorry for the spontaneous rant lol, I just think that if we must take these animals out of the wild then we should do the best we can to give them a happy life, and im sick to death of people not doing it


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

I totally agree with what you have written SpiderD!

The problems we have is this, whilst there are many organizations that are able to be established and created in support for those that oppose exotics being kept, in the Animal defender groups and the likes of the RSPCA. On the pro keeping side - we have nothing - we simply do not have the finances available to fund it.

If a group was to be set up, it would have to be voluntary, unless of course REPTA wanted to establish such a group in support to Chris Newman.

But such a group is NEEDED, and for those in the know reading this, they will know exactly what l refer to at times.

There are very few councillors that know the species they work with when issuing DWAL. In fact sticking to thread, when l applied for my licence on Racoons, l was told that my enclosure which at the initial stage of development for my two youngsters - at 10H x 15W x 20L was in fact big enough to house almost ten times the pair l had in there at the time!!

For the written instruction on the licence application for a pair of Racoons was 4x4x4!!?

So l not only exceeded their requirements as a species, but more than sufficiently exceeded my councils expectations.

I then proceeded to tell the Licence officer everything about Racoons. I do not think that this is a bad thing, for it displays to Environmental health officers that you at least know about the species you have applied to keep under licence.

Primates should be under licence, and l know the mere mention to this will incite and ignite primate keepers in some quarters, but l am not saying that it necessarily needs to be the DWA for species no longer befitting that classification. But there should be a primate licence that runs alongside the DWAL as well as the AWAct.

Rant away SpiderD, for it is actions like this that make the difference in a society that would prefer for us to be quiet if exist at all.

R


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

Agreed on the primates license as long as its cheap enough to be viable. Max £50 a year. Inspections would be part of the license. I agree that primates should be allowed to be kept, in fact i hold my hands up saying id like to keep one myself at some point but only with the right set up and research.

The problem with DWA licenses is not only the cost but people in charge not wanting to let people keep them hence huge prices. The system should be set to a set price UK wide. However Cities should charge more compared to say a village in the middle of nowhere. The main problem i have with DWAL licenses is that anyone can get them. Although mentoring is a good idea there is not enough people who train others and their will always be a few that charge through the teeth and these people quite frankly can go to hell.

Personally i hate licensing. Being charged to keep an animal is ludicrous. However with how people keep their animals its sometimes required, let alone registration being needed in case a venomous animal escapes and the last thing we want is an army of idiots trying to show off their cobras.

However their is a chance for DWA licenses to go overboard, i can imagine the council trying to go idiotic on trying to make tarantulas DWA. However i will say the people running the DWA licensing are competent. The removal of mangroves for example was a good change and quite controversial but it was done because their was very little reason for them to be on the license. However councils are idiotic in pricing.


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## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

I agree with a group being needed. We constantly hear of people saying "ban this, ban that!" but where do WE the KEEPERS get a say? We dont, and it makes me sick. 

Granted there are people out there who keep animals and don't keep them correctly, but why should we have to suffer because some idiots couldn't be bothered to at least research the animals they intended to keep first!?!

Even regarding reptiles, there are constantly people on here posting "Hi, I just bought this, how do I look after it?" It just makes me wonder WHY exactly they bought the animal in the first place? Did they decide they wanted it first? Or see it in a shop and think, "oo thats pretty/hardcore/something that would impress my friends":bash: It genuinely annoys me!

In regards to primates, I have a work colleague that turned to me last month and stated that he wanted a "pet monkey". I then asked what type of primate he wanted and he stated "I don't know what they're called but it's the one on pirates of the carribean". (We can all see where this is going Im sure). I then continued in explaining that he was reffering to a capuchin and asked if he knew what was required in order to keep one. The conversation followed as this:

Him "Yeah you can keep them in one of those big ferret cages, my mums friend has one"

Me "He has one?"

Him "yeah"

Much of my reply was something that should be saved for 18+ , but the basic jist is that I told him that he should have at least 2-3 and that they need a huge indoor enclosure connected to a huge outdoor enclosure and they needed lots of toys to keep them occupied and that the mans "pet" was probably a very sad animal indeed and that he should be ashamed of himself. He didn't believe me and hasn't spoken to me since 

If a group is set up, count me in. I may have limited knowledge on a lot of things but the important thing is that I am learning and I'm loving every second of it! And I so hope that many others will do the same.

Sam


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Excellent posting Lucifus.

I think you are spot on, if the licencing was at an acceptable cost level, it would further encourage keepers to display the enthusiasm, motivation and responsibility of registering.

I was pretty lucky down here in Lincs for all my licences, with only an 8% increase every year with my first licence rolling in at £95. Five miles down the road from me, different region it was £75. But l was stunned when a client of mine said his licence was somewhere near the £1600 when he applied for a Kinkajous pair.

I was mortified when the vet turned up to my first ever inspection, for ten minutes l was allowed to enjoy a £235 fee, for me to tell him that 'no Racoons did not require the heat equivalent to a pair of reptiles in a viv!'

And to a certain extent l also agree about the actuality of licencing and whether it should be present to begin with. However because of the amount of inexperienced keepers out there, they just need regulating, but as l have said before in this thread and others, l can not fathom how on earth they are not only going to police and enforce the licence [hence why they do not want them] but an even harder task of how they believe they are going to enforce the actual codes of practice within the AWAct.

R


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Again l agree with you Sam.

The amount of enquiries l have had on Capuchins alone makes me want to shake the very life from some people!!

From harness trained to 'will they be okay in a cot beside me and the wife at night'

It pulls me down at times, and at other times, l just laugh. You try not to be humerous, but the things you hear - well you either laugh or cry or hold back the temper levels.

I think sadly that primates are the one species in the mammal world that really do have the most stupidist enquiries ever.

One chap said HE NEEDED a Capuchin because his wife had a very good set of knitting needles and wanted to get back into practice for the fair during the summer! 

I was aghast and said what!!??

Oh yes, they are the right size for childrens sweaters!

They have their own coat sir!!

Nah, they can not like that! we can give them better colours!

The problem was that he was deadly serious and swore profusely at me and then promptly hung up!

R


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## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

Lucifus said:


> Agreed on the primates license as long as its cheap enough to be viable. Max £50 a year. Inspections would be part of the license. I agree that primates should be allowed to be kept, in fact i hold my hands up saying id like to keep one myself at some point but only with the right set up and research.
> 
> The problem with DWA licenses is not only the cost but people in charge not wanting to let people keep them hence huge prices. The system should be set to a set price UK wide. However Cities should charge more compared to say a village in the middle of nowhere. The main problem i have with DWAL licenses is that anyone can get them. Although mentoring is a good idea there is not enough people who train others and their will always be a few that charge through the teeth and these people quite frankly can go to hell.
> 
> ...


I agree on the council being idiotic part but the point is that the council shouldnt BE the ones to issue them full stop. However I have no issue whatsoever with licences existing.

That being said, a lot of councils do take the mickey and I cannot understand how one council can charge less that £100 for a licence, and another can charge over a grand. 

There is DEFINITELY something going wrong here, and it's just another example of why most councils cannot be trusted with something like this, and should stick to naming benches after dead people and building statues to honour themselves.



> I was mortified when the vet turned up to my first ever inspection, for ten minutes l was allowed to enjoy a £235 fee, for me to tell him that 'no Racoons did not require the heat equivalent to a pair of reptiles in a viv!'


What did they think you were going to do? Make a giant heatmat and feed them a mouse every week o.o ??


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

LOL, 

He wanted me [vet] to install a major heating element inside the outside enclosure.

I said, what do you normally do inspection wise?

Stables and horse!

Do you know absolutely anything about Racoons?

Yes, they need heat!

Why?

Because they will get cold during winter!

What!!?? These guys can paddle around 16 foot snowdrifts, naked, whilst we are wearing seven layers of cold and freezing our asses off!

Really?? Oh well l did not know that did l?

LOL

[Still chuckling over naming benches and erecting statues tho - very funny]


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## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Again l agree with you Sam.
> 
> The amount of enquiries l have had on Capuchins alone makes me want to shake the very life from some people!!
> 
> ...


I lost my faith in the british people when I began working for 118. I wouldn't trust half of them to look after a packet of crisps let alone a specialist care animal! 

Holy cow are children that small where they come from o.o ! Yes I can imagine it now, capuchins queing up, his wife knitting away "please sir, I dont want to be black and white can I be purple instead?". Could almost be funny if it wasn't based on truth. Bloomin' 'eck!


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## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> LOL,
> 
> He wanted me [vet] to install a major heating element inside the outside enclosure.
> 
> ...


Hehehe Caerphilly council recently erected an 8ft bronze statue of Tommy Cooper...looks like a giant pedophile looming over the people of the town o.o I'll find you a picture...hehe

Maybe he thought they just turned the heating up when it got cold in the area of the world where the lucky beggars still get snow in the winter! Reckon he'd ever inspected anybody for a DWA before? :lol2:


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## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

Here ya go found one!








Now is that not THE scariest thing you've ever seen? I've seen children cry at the foot of this statue! Hell, I've been reduced to tears upon sight of it! Scary stuff o.o


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Oh my giddy God!!

What actually is it, l am surprised if pigeons dont drop dead during flight over it!!


No, there were not many of us with DWAL's.
In Lincs, at that time, there was only three of us, myself and a chap who had Squirrel Monkeys and Coatis, and in South kesteven, the Exotic Pet Refuge.


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## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Oh my giddy God!!
> 
> What actually is it, l am surprised if pigeons dont drop dead during flight over it!!
> 
> ...


It's meant to be Tommy Cooper, but what it is is an abomination o.o:lol2:

Aah I see. Come to think of it, I don't personally know of anyone with a DWAL around here either, apart from a shopin Cardiff (but best I don't get into my feelings about them!) and apparently a shop in Bridgend has a caiman that I keep meaning to visit and ogle over lol. I'd love to own an exotic animal (specifically a Lynx, some fruit bats and a Skunk) But I haven't the land, the money or the expertise at this time in my life, but one day..:lol2: Would be nice to learn about these animals outside of a zoo!

Is there any reason that some councils charge more than others? Or is it just another example of councils grabbing money where they can?


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Age old question Sam.

Why can there be issuers at £75 and again at £1600?

Money, but also it is an attempt for some councils to put you off application - it is not unlawful to apply for a DWAL, but the way some councils act, you would certainly think so.

They can not deny the application, they can fail you, but what l mean is they can not declare that it is illegal to apply for a DWAL - But if it is too expensive, this may be an off putter for some.

R


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## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

Makes you wonder where the money is going...which brings us back to benches and statues I suppose lmao:lol2:

The council are always quick to discourage ANY sort:lol2: of pet around here, I couldn't imagine how they would react if I went to them and told them I wanted to keep a Caiman:lol2: They've always been full of scandal/cock ups and procrastination but they'd be quick to judge just in case the keeper made a mistake. They play up to public fear and expectation in a lot of cases imo


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