# Chinese Water Dragon Paludarium build...



## Jim2109

this is going to be an ongoing thread about the paludarium i am building for some water dragons (probably 3). i have too many hobbies so things always take a while to get finished as there just arent enough hours in the day. so expect this to drag on for a month or 2! but i thought i would start a thread with what i have done so far.


























i dont have any initial pictures, but i basically started out with a wooden base with 3 sides on it (12mm chipboard) and some internal walls. i then stretched a large fleece blanket over the frame, and staple gunned it down in the appropriate places to create the shape i wanted (this is a trick i learned from when i used to be into car audio and making interestingly shaped speaker enclosures). you then use fibreglass resin and soak the fleece (you literally soak it!!) and leave it to dry. this then gives a firm but brittle and weak base, but it is stiff enough to support the application of chopped strand mat. so then you start adding layers of CSM and fibreglass resin until the whole thing is stiff enough for your purpose. i ended up with 2-4 layers throughout, depending on the areas and how much strength they required (the main floor area is 4 layers thick for rigidity since it will be supporting 4 live plants, multiple branches, substrate, etc. easily 20kg+ of weight)

prior to this though i bought some cheap plastic plant pots (2 big, 2 small) and cut holes in the resin'ed fleece. dropped the pots in and masking taped them in place, then used some strips of CSM to hold them in place and added resin. then i fibreglassed the whole thing, including inside the pots. the pots themselves were just there to create the shape upon which to fibreglass, and are now completely glassed and thus fully sealed.

what you can see now are the end results of the fibreglassing. there are plenty of edges that need trimming, and im still torn on what to do at the front. i wanted to bond a piece of glass/clear perspex on there so that the river/pool is in full view. but im weighing up whether its worth the effort, or if i should just glue another piece of chipboard to the front and fibreglass it in to seal it. or possibly do that but also cut in a window.

once this is all done i will build the physical exterior of the viv around this base i have made with a hinged door on the front (easier than sliding glass and fuller visibility), seal it all up, paint all of the walls with a rainforest background (my sister and her boyfriend are both awesome artists, and im not awful myself, so we will come up with something cool for the background, paint it on, and then seal it with varnish), stick in a 4-5 foot tall waterfall (that i want to style on Angel Falls, google it if you dont know what it looks like) and then start populating it with branches and plants! it will have mostly live plants, but the beauty of the way the pots are integrated is that you cant see plant pots as they will be under the substrate, and i can just as easily use fake plants/trees in there as well and still have them look natural.

so thats my progress so far. il update this thread as and when i make substantial progress. next update will probably take a week or 2 as im at a fiddly stage of doing something with the front. and then ive got to make the rather large exterior of the viv (7ft tall, 5ft wide, 3ft deep!) and from them on the fun stuff begins 

let me know your thoughts. constructive criticism is welcomed too because id rather someone else spots my mistakes while its not too late to change them, than me finish it and find a massive flaw in my planning lol. im already regretting making the floor recess so shallow. i can see substrate ending up in the water at present, so im going to build up fake rocks around the edges to prevent this!


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## thetomahawkkid58

this looks like its going to be an interesting thread :2thumb:


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## spikemu

do i sound stupid saying wats a paludarium ???? 

XD


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## Jim2109

spikemu said:


> do i sound stupid saying wats a paludarium ????
> 
> XD


vivarium is the overall word used to describe an enclosure used for keeping animals and/or plants in (it is latin for "place of life"). typically it is used specifically for reptiles, and tropical plants though.

under the umbrella of 'vivarium' you then have specific sub-types. most reptile people and manufacturers call their enclosures vivariums or terrariums. but this isnt technically correct, it depends on the type of environment.

for example...

terrarium simulates a dry environment (e.g. desert or savannah, so that would be your typical bearded dragon enclosure)

aquarium simulates an underwater environment (and not any of the above-water aspects. so rivers or sea, this will mostly contain fish). most people probably wouldnt know that an aquarium is a type of vivarium as it is a more widely known word due to fish being more popular to keep as pets.

paludarium simulates a wet environment, such as rainforests and swamps. however it is also used as a description for an enclosure that is part aquarium as well (e.g. has submerged water areas AND land areas, id guess this would also cover turtles). so technically anyone with a suitable enclosure for chinese water dragons has a paludarium. but most people simply call it a vivarium, or incorrectly refer to it as a terrarium (probably because thats what exo-terra call all of their enclosures)

paludarium is more commonly used by reptile owners to describe the very wet enclosures that some types of frogs are kept in. which is correct, but it also extends to many lizard environments as mentioned above where a rainforest environment is simulated


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## stern69

Well put Jim, i'd often wondered that! Tell you what though mate, get off your keyboard and get into your garage cos i wanna see this thing built!!
Looks like it's gonna be awesome!! :2thumb:


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## stern69

QUOTE: "i wanted to bond a piece of glass/clear perspex on there so that the river/pool is in full view. but im weighing up whether its worth the effort, or if i should just glue another piece of chipboard to the front and fibreglass it in to seal it. or possibly do that but also cut in a window."

Mate do it. I don't know that much about water dragons but i do know they like to spend time under/in the water so a window will be awesome. Hard work, but AWESOME!!


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## trw

Although its not me who will have to spend the time adding the perspex front, i think it will definately make it look better when its finished, and seeing as it will be u who gets to enjoy looking at it, u shud go for it. Good luck with it and get posting with updates. Love it!


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## jamesthornton

Got me CWD today mate. Still young so won't have to do anything like this soon 

Keep it up.


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## Jim2109

had already given more thought to the clear front and im going to use glass for it (wont scratch over time then!). the front is already trimmed up, so im probably going to bond the glass straight on, silicone the hell out of it (maybe even fibreglass it too), then put a wooden "window frame" trim on the front to hide the messy sealant from view!

at present progress is slow because im waiting on the wood to make the exterior frame. one of my dads friends is a carpenter and is going to order and cut it all for me. the local B&Q doesnt have a cutting table, Homebase does but they are too expensive and dont stock OSB, plus i wouldnt trust them to be mm perfect, they are usually +/- 3mm with their cuts. id do it myself with a handheld circular saw, but we dont own a vehicle large enough to transport the wooden sheets! once i get the wood progress will be swift, might be another fortnight yet though.

in the meantime i have been trimming the fibreglass shell, reinforcing it underneath (so it can support the weight of trees, etc), and now i am messing with fake rocks. its taken me a few experiments to find a method that works (hopefully, its still drying). space foam is awesome, just got to hope the grout sets hard enough, and that grip fill adhesive can support the weight. i wanted to use fillite instead of grout because its way stronger (its a filler powder made from microscopic balls of glass that you mix with polyester resin) but it melts the space foam, DOH! i was using Oasis foam (the squishy green stuff you use for flower arranging) because its easier than polystyrene to shape, and that was working quite well with the fillite. it absorbs the resin too which gives it about 5-10mm of solid shell all over. but its too hard to work with, it crumbles away while youre shaping it. space foam can be shaped just like wood and is much stronger and easier to work on (it doesnt crumble). ive been going at it with surform planes, files, saws, all sorts, its awesome stuff to shape! if id known about this stuff sooner my whole build would probably have been done very differently


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## Jim2109

have made some progress worth posting about over the last week or so, only bits and pieces here and there. going to take some pics tomorrow once things have dried. but the main base is all trimmed up (still needs some minor work in places), ive started making a few of the rocks (but havent got very far), and ive made my waterfall!!

the waterfall has come out awesome, its had its first layer of grout but needs more yet. its over 3 feet tall and made from about 30 small individually cut blocks of space foam to get its shape. i tried to model it on Angel Falls, but trying to create a replica is easier said than done! in the end i have very loosely based it on something similar to Angel Falls, its tall with a thin water stream, and once painted might look a little like it. 

there has to be at least 10 hours in it already though, its been a properly slow process to make, but it looks awesome, im so pleased with it! i cut the blocks of space foam to size and then carved them individually to create the main front cutout shape. then i cut a single larger piece of foam to go behind them, and cut the top piece and carved that out. then using grip adhesive and cocktail sticks i attached all the front pieces to the large back piece and let it dry for an hour or 2. then i carved the side details in, and have set about grouting it

to do all the carving i have used a stanley knife to cut the large chunks out (occasionally a loose hacksaw blade if i needed to cut deeper), then used surform planes to do all the shaping. the results you can acheive with space foam and surform planes are awesome, you can literally produce any shape you want with minimal effort. now im just brushing the grout on with a cut-down stiff bristled brush to work it into all the gaps, because the texture i have created with the foam is absolutely perfect, grout has a tendancy to fill in gaps which i absolutely dont want! so im laying it on super thin.

ive experimented with polyester resin and fillite on top of grout as well on a spare piece of foam to see what happens. the resin melts the foam so you cant apply it directly to the foam which sucks. but it sets as hard as rock, plus it is brown in colour (slightly darker than sand) with a sandy texture once set and looks like rock without even painting it!! so if it is successful i can use this for more strength, better texture, plus it takes a tenth of the time to apply compared to grout (and watered down grout at that!). im coating the entire fibreglass base in it, have done half of that already. it fills the texture of the fibreglass mat (which basically looks like loads of strands and doesnt look very realistic for a river bed!) which is the main purpose, but the sandy texture and colour are cool too, and its also 100% waterproof just in case there were any flaws in my fibreglass layup (which there were a few). should make it easier for the water dragons to climb out of the water too.

this will all make much more sense with pictures, which will follow at some point tomorrow 

also il post some pics up of how to make rocks using Oasis foam. i had gone off using it because its hard to work with, but have devised an improved technique using resin and fillite that yields awesome results.


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## exoticsandtropics

looks pretty cool so far mate


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## Fence Up

*Something to think about*

I will be following with interest. Have you considered water filtration?
A bottom drain and a surface skimmer would be a great advantage. Have a look at a kitchen sink waste with overflow, it would give you all the plumbing bits in one pack. The bottom drain is the best way to filter a pond so would work well in your setup. Bugs that drown in the water are a big problem, the surface skimmer would pull these off ( oops, that sounds wrong). These are the issues I hope to address with my next project. I have an aquarium as the base and can’t easily add these features. 
Good luck with your project


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## Jim2109

Fence Up said:


> I will be following with interest. Have you considered water filtration?
> A bottom drain and a surface skimmer would be a great advantage. Have a look at a kitchen sink waste with overflow, it would give you all the plumbing bits in one pack. The bottom drain is the best way to filter a pond so would work well in your setup. Bugs that drown in the water are a big problem, the surface skimmer would pull these off ( oops, that sounds wrong). These are the issues I hope to address with my next project. I have an aquarium as the base and can’t easily add these features.
> Good luck with your project


i was going to have a side drain positioned very low down. one external pump pulls water from the pool, into the top of a filter stack. first layer is foam, then there is sand, then another layer of foam. water filters through under gravity, foam takes large debris, sand takes pretty much everything else, the bottom layer of foam is simply to suspend the sand. the water then drips into the holding tank where it is slightly heated, another external pump feeds it back to the waterfall which feeds the pool

there will also be an 'overflow' pipe positioned at a point where i never want the water to rise above. this pipe will feed into a smaller reservoir that will act as a holding tank. this is where things get slightly more complicated. i could potentially double this up as a surface skimmer, but that means another pump (i cant use the drain pump because that will back up if the feed exceeds the drain, which would render the overflow circuit useless). also, the reservoir will potentially run dry much of the time, and most pumps wont handle that. so il need some kind of feedback circuit that only runs the pump when there is water present, and this water will get fed into the filtration system with the drain water. if i run the feed pump slightly faster than the drain pump then there will always be an excess, which will effectively give me the surface skimmer as well. i just need to figure out the feedback circuit without over complicating things.

i possibly also need an override circuit to kill the feed pump in case the drain pump should ever fail, however if i run the 'skimmer/overflow' pump too then the chances of BOTH pumps failing are extremely slim, but slim isnt impossible and there will be enough water in the overall system to substantially flood the viv (probably double or triple the amount of water that the pool can hold at any one time, just to compensate for the slow filtration rate of sand). im sure there is a simple solution to this as well, my thoughts so far have all been too complex, but trying to over-engineer things is something i often do when there is a much simpler fix. if you ever needed proof of that then this thread im sure will be it lol

i was going to have a powerhead in the pool as well to keep a constant current, i may still do that, but i may try to split the feed stream so that some goes to the waterfall and the rest is pumped into the pool through the side. i need to get the pumps and play with them to see how powerful their flow is. i am going to use Hydor L20's as im using so little water in the pool (compared to an aquarium) that any higher flow rate will mean i need a massive reservoir for the sand filtration setup. 700 l/h is already a lot when the pool will probably only hold 6-12 litres (at a complete guess). its going to completely renew itself every 30-60 seconds (in theory). if the filtration works i should hardly ever need to change the water, and cleaning should be minimal


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## suey

It's very interesting learning different techniques and products used, thanks for the thread Jim, ........i want to see more pictures!!! )


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## Jim2109

ive got some pictures as promised, plus a few explanations on how things have been done, just in case anyone else fancies having a try.

firstly il start with the base. nothing major has been done since the first pics went up. i trimmed it all up, added a few more layers of fibreglass, cut the back out with a jigsaw (badly lol) and have hot glued some 2"x2" supports underneath. it was pretty rigid without them, but il probably have 20-30kg of weight on it once the plants, logs, water, etc are all added, so having some extra rigidity can never hurt. it should easily withstand my bodyweight now!

you can also see the fake rock formations (part finished) around the edges. bad planning on my part meant that the recess i added was too shallow, i want the substrate deeper and i dont want it to easily be dragged into the water. so this is my fix. ive made the rocks using Oasis foam, polyester resin and fillite. il explain the specifics later. the base is near enough done now though, it just needs minor stuff, most of which will happen when i build the main walls around it. im going to fibreglass the base to the walls to completely seal it all in. its only a chipboard frame underneath which will rot if it gets wet. but once the base is sealed to the walls the chipboard will offer no structural benefit anyway, so it wont matter if it does.



































the major development to the project is the waterfall which is nearing completion! fortunately i didnt time myself whilst making it, because if i had im sure it will work out as costing several hundred pounds in labour time if i had been using that time to do paying work lol. theres got to be at least 10-15 hours in it, just because of the attention to detail ive put in.

i made it using space foam and grout. i tried to use oasis foam but it just wasnt happening (its great for rocks, but you cant get the same kind of intricate detail from it as you can space foam). space foam is inifitely better for fake rocks than polystyrene, i cant emphasise that enough!!

the method is fairly simple, but hard to explain. the waterfall is 25cm wide, so i started by cutting myself a load of blocks 25cm wide and all equal in thickness. the depths i started at 10cm, then 9.5, 9, 8.5, 8, etc going down in 0.5cm increments until i got to 7cm, then i stuck at 7cm right to the top. this results in it sloping inwards from the base, kind of like a real cliffside waterfall. starting from the bottom i cut each block individually with a stanley knife. i drew on freehand rock patterns, cut with the knife, but it doesnt cut right the way through. so then you use fingers to rip the blocks away, and that results in some really cool rock-like texturing and shapes! i traced each block onto the next block with a sharpie so that the shape continues up the waterfall from block to block. i did each block upto the top, then cut a single sheet 25cm wide that runs right to the top, and cut a top piece where the water collects and drips from and shaped this out with a surform plane and the knife.

then using cocktail sticks and grip adhesive i stuck the individual blocks to the backing sheet, let it all dry, then used surform planes to fettle the shape where necessary. i then used the surform planes, a hacksaw blade and the knife to cut the side rock details so that it doesnt just look like a square edged chunk of foam and looks like it could actually be a waterfall! because space foam is so dense it doesnt break up in chunks like polystyrene, but can be sanded to dust. so you can create literally any shapes you want! but you can also get it to break away in chunks as well. its absolutely awesome stuff.

the final step was to take a paintbrush and cut the bristles short so they were super stiff. water down some grout, and stipple it in to every nook and cranny. 2 coats later and its all hard enough to use. il paint it in acrylic and then varnish it.

the pictures really dont do it justice, white is a terrible colour for showing up shading and contours, it will be more apparent when its painted. ive tried to edit the colour levels in photoshop to show the contours off better, but you just cant appreciate it from a photo. it stands just over 3 feet tall, you can see the aerosol cans in the background which are standard sized cans, which give some perspective. the tub of grout is about 12" diameter and 7" tall!



















finally, a short guide on how to make rocks using oasis foam and resin!

Oasis foam is the green stuff that is used for flower arranging. its really crumbly and absorbent, which is both a good and bad thing. it cost me £1.29 per block from the local Wyevale garden centre. youll then also need polyester resin and catalyst. i used Easylam resin from Fibreglass, Glass Fibre, Gelcoat, GRP, Polyester Epoxy Resin - CFS Fibreglass Supplies because its cheap and dries a sandy browny/grey colour, perfect for rocks! youll need some cheap paintbrushes, nylon gloves, a disposable mixing pot, and a tin of acetone if you want to clean brushes. i often dont bother, the brushes cost so little that it isnt worth the effort, ive got a jar of acetone for the smaller brushes which i clean, the bigger ones dont fit in so i just throw them away after use. youll also need something called "fillite". it is a filler made from tiny spheres of hollow glass. i get all of that stuff from CFS, as linked above.

you take a block of the Oasis foam and my personal method for shaping it is to take my finger and run grooves into it in a rocky sort of shape arrangement. the result is large flat areas with grooves all over them. you then use the palm of your hand and your fingers as sanding blocks and run them around the surfaces, rounding off edges, sanding out large crevises, etc. the foam breaks away in dust or clumps of dust. once youve got a satisfactory shape you just blow off any excess. try to get rid of all the rust you can, you cant really brush it off or you produce more dust lol

now is the part that has taken me many attempts to refine; adding the resin. pour the resin into a container and add the specified amount of catalyst (it says on the bottle). from that point youve got anything from 10-30 mins before it sets, use it fast!! saturate the brush in resin and lay the resin onto the foam really thick. the foam is super absorbent and just soaks it up slowly, you can only really do one side of the block at a time or it all runs off. once the resin has absorbed you then add fillite to the resin youve mixed up. how much i just gauge by eye, you want it fairly runny, you dont want it too thick. you then lay this on heavily, much the same as you did the first bit of resin.

the key is to get the bare resin absorbed in first before adding fillite. if you start with fillite straight away the resin absorbs and you end up with the fillite sat on the surface and it is patchy and leaves gaps. its like sand, and it just becomes crumbly when dry. this is the same reason you want the fillite runny, some of the resin will absorb. you then leave it to dry for 2-3 hours before it is hard enough to do the next side of the block, it needs 24 hours to cure fully. once it cures you are left with a browny grey coloured surface that is grainy like sand. its the same texture as if you glue sand onto grout. it is literally rock hard, completely waterproof, a matt finish, and doesnt really require painting so no sealing is necessary. this means no glossy varnish on top! its an excellent alternative to making fake rocks for desert landscapes! personally il be painting mine as i want grey rocks, but for everyone with Leo's and Beardie's this is a really good method to try out. the resin will seriously f___ you up if you inhale too much though!! get yourself some masks, ive got a strap on respirator mask that i use. if you breathe it in all day youll have a banging headache later, and ive puked before. it needs at least a weak to air out before you even consider putting it in with reps as well. also dont get it on your skin, especially with fillite. it doesnt break up, the only way to remove it is with a layer of skin still attached. hence the gloves. its fine if you take the correct precautions, but i wouldnt recommend kids trying it, and i know there are some younger members on this forum, so thats just an advisory 

heres a close up of a piece of nearly finished rock. this was before i properly figured out the resin method, so it needs another coat really, its a bit patchy. once youve mastered the resin you can get away with a single coat like the other rocks in the background.


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## Nikos

Cant wait to see it finished!!!Looks great!!


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## Fence Up

*back to the filter*

If you link both surface and lower drain together and the filter tank can be positioned at the same height, so that both have the same water level. Water will exit the pool to the filter under gravity, without the need for a pump in the tank. The pump returns the water from the filter. Your overflow for the whole system can then be on your filter.


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## Jim2109

Fence Up said:


> If you link both surface and lower drain together and the filter tank can be positioned at the same height, so that both have the same water level. Water will exit the pool to the filter under gravity, without the need for a pump in the tank. The pump returns the water from the filter. Your overflow for the whole system can then be on your filter.


problem there is that the pool in the viv is going to be near enough at floor level, its so tall that i cant have it off the floor due to ceiling height restrictions! the filter stack will be fairly tall, probably 3-4 feet. what you have drawn though is basically what i will have as my pool, and then the overflow reservoir, but with the middle pipe going into the reservoir. the reservoir will be at floor level so that gravity feeds it from the pool. the pump is just required to pump the water upto the filter (which will be 3 feet higher up)


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## Fence Up

It will be very hard to control two pumps one pumping out and one pumping back in. I can’t see how it will work. I am no expert so I’ll be prepared to be corrected, but with the exception of sealed canister filters, if you pump out you will have to return by gravity or feed out by gravity and pump return.You can still use my example (and keep all the benefits )at ground level ,just pump from the external tank to whatever you like waterfall and filter. I know your mind will be on other parts of the construction at the moment but it’s so important to think ahead. I know from my own mistakes. 
I’ll leave you too it now but if I can be of help just ask.
Could you let me know what space foam is and where you get it.
Thanks and keep up the good work. 








http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/lh/photo/BVe5dL2eLn5KcPq7FtCO2g?feat=directlink


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## Jim2109

il have to give it some more thought and look more at how aquarium setups do it. i have a friend in America who has a huge salt water tank in his house with an extension built on the side to house all of the filtration system. its massive, there are about 6 tanks in there, and they are below the tank level. so he must be using gravity to drain and pumps to feed, il have more of a think about how i can implement it.

as for space foam, its a foam insulation board that comes in packs of 4 sheets, they are approx 4' x 2' or somewhere around that. you can buy it in Wickes and it costs £19.99 for the pack of 4, i think some B&Q stores sell it to. its light pink in colour and kinda like polystyrene but much denser. it is usually on a shelf near all the loft and wall insulation materials


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## Fence Up

That was my problem trying to adapt my experience or aquarium. The problems are different. For one thing the S***t is bigger and water dragons do like to go in the water. Look to how ponds / Koi are filtered. 
I think I'll have a trip to Wickes for some foam and grout just to have a play. Can you use the resin over the grout? and is everything non toxic?


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## Jim2109

Fence Up said:


> That was my problem trying to adapt my experience or aquarium. The problems are different. For one thing the S***t is bigger and water dragons do like to go in the water. Look to how ponds / Koi are filtered.
> I think I'll have a trip to Wickes for some foam and grout just to have a play. Can you use the resin over the grout? and is everything non toxic?


my filtration method is similar to Koi filtration, they use sand filters. i actually got the inspiration from a zoo! i was trying to figure out in my head how i would filter poo from the water, and just happened to visit Marwell Zoo on a day when i was giving it some thought. i was watching a penguin swim around in his pool and thinking "this pool is full of penguin poo, how do they filter it?". and as im leaving the enclosure i spot the filtration room which has a window so you can see in, and also a cutaway diagram on the wall explaining how it all works!! id seen this a dozen times and ignored it. but they were using sand filtration and UV, and their water is recirculated permanently, it never gets changed (its a LOT of water to change!). so thats where the sand idea came from.

resin over grout i have tried, it kinda works. resin over foam is a 100% no-no, it melts it. the resin hardens on the surface, but where its mixed with melted foam it takes loads longer to cure underneath, but all the time it hasnt cured it continues to melt. so what you end up with is a porous solid shell with about 3mm of nothing underneath it. and it cracks as soon as you press it hard and all crumbles away. luckily i tried that on a sample piece first lol

i tested resin on a grouted sample piece as well. it doesnt harm the grout, but it doesnt cure in the same way as it does on top of more resin. it spreads really thin, sort of absorbs into the grout a bit, and doesnt go quite as hard. it still works, but im not going to use it on mine. epoxy resin over paint works fine though as a sealing coat, polyester resin doesnt really offer any benefits (it isnt clear, and it doesnt go much harder than the grout)


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## Fence Up

Can't find the foam in wickes closest thing was some boards with foil backing on both sides.


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## Jim2109

Fence Up said:


> Can't find the foam in wickes closest thing was some boards with foil backing on both sides.


its not the foil stuff. this is the stuff on the B&Q website
http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?action=detail&fh_secondid=9374253&fh_view_size=10&fh_eds=%3f&fh_location=%2f%2fcatalog01%2fen_GB%2fcategories%3C{9372016}%2fcategories%3C{9372050}%2fcategories%3C{9372230}&fh_refview=lister&ts=1241900180188&isSearch=false

the label on the front of the package looks like this....
http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?action=detail&fh_secondid=9273744&fh_view_size=10&fh_location=%2f%2fcatalog01%2fen_GB%2fcategories%3C{9372016}%2fcategories%3C{9372050}%2fcategories%3C{9372230}&fh_eds=%C3%9F&fh_refview=lister&ts=1241900268093&isSearch=false

but obviously it doesnt say "blanket" on it, it says foam or board or something along those lines. if you have a decent sized B&Q in your area then they might sell it, mine doesnt stock insulation because its a small store. my local Wickes is really big though so they did


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## suey

Hey Jim! You must have done some more work on it....come on, you've had 2 days since your last post!!! )


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## Jim2109

nothing more done yet. i found some captive bred baby water dragons for sale and wanted to get them now whilst they are still available, so ive bought a temporary viv to house them in and have spent my spare time getting that sorted the last couple of days

there should be some more progress later in the week, the wood is all being cut sometime this week by a friend when he gets the time and once i have the wood the major progress can begin!


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## Morgan Freeman

Can't wait to see some more progress pics!


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## Jim2109

paid a visit to a local aquatic supplier today because i needed some aquarium silicone. had a chat with one of the guys about filtration and plumbing and he gave me some insight on how aquarium guys handle it. so i did some research on the various types of filters and have figured out the plumbing!

im going to run a single circulation pump (plus an additional waterfall pump). you can see the layout in my badly drawn diagram. water will be drained from the main tank (inside the viv) through the bottom and into the external pump. this will also drain water from the overflow tank which is fed by the overflow pipe. the aim is to have enough water flow that there is always a small amount of overflow, basically acting as a skimmer.

from the pump the water is fed into a pressurised foam filter housing (il make a small box with a sealed lid, packed with foam filter elements), which then feeds the top of a "fluidised bed filter". the foam filter is the mechanical filter, the fluidised bed filter is then a purely biological filter. the combination of the 2 should ensure everything nasty gets pulled from the water and in theory it will never need changing! this system works for massive aquatic tanks and fish are pretty messy. there will be enough filtration for probably a few hundred gallons of saltwater tank!! im running approx 125 litres lol (less than 30 gallons)

the fluidised bed filter is also pressurised, so water feeds in at the bottom, through gravel and sand, and then out the top. it is always full. from there it feeds into the holding tank which will be elevated as high as i can get it. water is then gravity fed from here back into the main tank in the viv. there will be an aquarium heater in the main tank heating the water to some preset temperature. im thinking somewhere around 22-24 degsC. warm water = humidity, and in the wild the water would be around this temperature. 18-20 deg UK room temperature isnt the natural temp of water in Vietnam lol

the waterfall will take water from the main tank via a small pump and just circulate in a loop purely for visual effect.

for the overflow tank and holding tank im just going to use a pair of RUB's, probably 84l ones. then il build a 2"x2" frame with shelves that holds the 2 RUB's, as well as the pump and 2 filters. il make all the filter housings myself. then i can just put hardboard on the rack so it is closed off and the ugly plumbing hidden and have it sat next to the viv. the total volume of water in the system will not exceed 209 litres, thus even in the event of a pump failure (or filter blockage) there can never be a flood 










anyone see any flaws in the plan? id rather find them now than once its built lol. this part of the project is a few weeks away yet, next step is to build the main viv structure!


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## Fence Up

The main tank, and overflow tank will always have the same water level. Good luck with the seal on a pressurized filter. Do you have to have the water entering the sand filter under pressure, as opposed to gravity fed?
I have my thinking cap on, be back soon.
Good to see the bottom dain.


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## Jim2109

hmmm, if the overflow pipe is submerged in any way then i suppose the water level would equalise. the main tank drain and overflow tank drain are essentially equal, so i guess it might adopt the same tank level. thats a problem!

pressurised filter sealing shouldnt prove too tricky. i work in motorsport, specifically with suspension systems, and dampers are often dynamically pressurised to over 100 bar. plus there are plenty of other pressurised systems on a race car. i should be able to transfer some of my knowledge of sealing methods over on this one. i think were probably taking about 2-3 psi over ambient pressure here, the pump is only 30W or so. rubber o-rings will more than suffice!

water enterring the sand filter has to be "pressurised" in order to excite the filtration media (it isnt so much pressurised as the water is just pumped into the sand by the pump. the only pressure is that which the pump can generate through flow restrictions. a major problem is that the pump might not possess enough power to get the water all the way through the foam filter, sand filter, and then up into the holding tank!). the whole principle of its operation is that every particle of the media is in constant motion, and thus its entire surface area is available for filtration. so you get a giant surface area from a small volume of filtration media. have a look at fluidised bed filters if you arent familiar with them, they seem like a pretty cool concept and are very widely used in saltwater aquatics, and are much higher flowing than a gravity fed drip filter (just water dripping through a container full of sand), which means i need less overall water in the system


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## Jim2109

Fence Up said:


> The main tank, and overflow tank will always have the same water level. Good luck with the seal on a pressurized filter. Do you have to have the water entering the sand filter under pressure, as opposed to gravity fed?
> I have my thinking cap on, be back soon.
> Good to see the bottom dain.


i am trying to get my head round this, so im going to ramble on about what im thinking, and if you could overlook it and give me some perspective then that would be helpful! just to make sure im not making any huge mistakes in my theory.

im thinking back in terms of your original idea again now. 2 containers at an equal level (e.g. sat on the floor) with a bottom drain connection on each, and an overflow from the main tank to the centre of the pipe.

submerged pump in the overflow tank pumps water to the filters. pipe from the filters goes back to the main tank.

water always finds its level, so the 2 tanks will sit at the same depth. as the submerged pump removes water from the overflow tank, so the water in the main tank will flow to the overflow tank to find its level (e.g. replenish the water that has gone). the overflow pipe will also contain water upto the same level, and will replenish the overflow tank in the same way. this will create a siphon effect on the overflow pipe, which will "surface skim" the main tank to some extent

the water from the pump and filters will be replenishing the main tank at the same time, and thus we get this endless cycle of water moving between the different tanks and pipes, and in theory the water level should remain fairly constant

in the event of a power failure, or pump failure, even if ALL of the water ended up back in the main tank, the overall level wouldnt be able to rise more than a couple of inches, which isnt enough to flood anything! in reality i think the filters would retain much of the water, and because i am essentially using a gravity drain system and pump feed i could position the filters at ground level too which would then mean they retain their water anyway

does that sound like it would work? i just made my overly complex idea into an incredibly simple one that will take up hardly any space at all!! im really hoping this one has sound reasoning to it. the waterfall will be handled as a seperate entity with its own small pump. the main circuit can run a much more powerful pump with this setup so the water gets filtered more frequently! thats the best thing about me discovering the existence of the fluidised bed filter - it flows at the same rate as the drain because its "pressurised", so i dont need a holding tank to replenish water that is held up in a gravity fed filtration system!


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## Fence Up

*Filtering out the bad ideas and keep it simple.*

Main tank /pool​
Filter chambers​
Filter media​
Return pump to pool, waterfall or to sand filter​
Heater



Yes your getting there. 
I have added two taps, one to the skimmer and one to the drain. this way you can have it just skimming or just draining, or a bit of both. if you can put the sand filter in one of the chambers, all well and good. If not feed it from the pump as you was going to. if the sand filter is sealed, then the flow rate will be what the pump can manage. This could power your waterfall or just back to the pool. you can as many chambers as you like as long as you continue over and under flow.










You could add an extra tap, to empty the first chamber and back flush it.









it's come a long way before you have even started (that's the best way)


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## Jim2109

was there supposed to be some pictures in your post?


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## Fence Up

There was!


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## Fence Up

Yes your getting there. 
I have added two taps, one to the skimmer and one to the drain. this way you can have it just skimming or just draining, or a bit of both. if you can put the sand filter in one of the chambers, all well and good. If not feed it from the pump as you was going to. if the sand filter is sealed, then the flow rate will be what the pump can manage. This could power your waterfall or just back to the pool. you can add as many chambers as you like as long as you continue over and under flow.










You could add an extra tap, to empty the first chamber and back flush it.


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## Fence Up




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## Fence Up

Dont know whats up they show up when I submit but not when i refresh


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## Fence Up

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/members/fence-up-albums-water-dragon-picture33494-filter1.jpg


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## Jim2109

would that actually work? running the filtration media before the pump? being an open filter the pump is just going to drain the end of the overflow tank until its empty and overfill the main tank surely?

if it was sealed then it wouldnt self-level. whilst that layout would be more straight forward i think it causes the same problems as my original idea. whereby i would need some sort of holding tank to buffer the flow delay through the filtration media. and then id need an overflow system to deal with the extra water, and im just back at square one lol

i think that your original idea, combined with my latest thoughts on filtration, plus the addition of the taps to make adjustments, is probably the best iteration so far. i think i will probably test it with just plastic storage containers to see if it works. ive got to buy a pump and the plumbing anyway, so im not at a loss if it doesnt work out. a simple temporary FBF and foam filter are going to be simple enough to cobble together with plastic bottles and silicone! just to experiment with. il probably give it a try in the next week or 2. ive got to get the base finished and start building the exterior walls next, wood will hopefully be here before the weeked


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## htd100

Fence Up said:


>


ah, now im getting it, this threads bin making my head hurt, but still learning.


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## Fence Up

If the filter media restricts the flow so much then yes. but it should be able to cope with most foam used in box filters for ponds. if you keep the drain quite large then it shouldn't be a problem. I'm no expert but I have seen this kind of filter work on koi ponds ( Don't even get me started on Vortex filters, google koi vortex filters). The big difference is the size / volume of water, it's much greater in a pond and will push the water through the filter (I think) 
Even if you only remove the big stuff with an open foam at this stage then pump to another filter you will still be benefiting. 
It is easier to filter big particles out of water, the impeller of a pump acts like a blender. So pumping clean water is better.

Sorry to everybody that was looking to see nice fake rocks. I have hijacked this thread a bit with filters, but most care sheets for water dragons say, change the water every day. That's just not practical in a build of this size.
So filters are worth getting right from the start.


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## htd100

Fence up, while ure hijacking, im not to clued up on filtering so you proberly know better than me. Do you know if you could use a fish mate external canester filter( one of those external ones for outdoors) for a indoor pond, im guessing about 30lts of water, or is it too powerful?
Reason being it can be positisioned above or below the water line.


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## Fence Up

I have started a new thread, with some details of my setup, so I don't clog this thread up. take a look and add your question again, and I'll answer it there. Thanks.
Filters - Reptile Forums UK


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## Jim2109

Fence Up said:


> If the filter media restricts the flow so much then yes. but it should be able to cope with most foam used in box filters for ponds. if you keep the drain quite large then it shouldn't be a problem. I'm no expert but I have seen this kind of filter work on koi ponds ( Don't even get me started on Vortex filters, google koi vortex filters). The big difference is the size / volume of water, it's much greater in a pond and will push the water through the filter (I think)
> Even if you only remove the big stuff with an open foam at this stage then pump to another filter you will still be benefiting.
> It is easier to filter big particles out of water, the impeller of a pump acts like a blender. So pumping clean water is better.
> 
> Sorry to everybody that was looking to see nice fake rocks. I have hijacked this thread a bit with filters, but most care sheets for water dragons say, change the water every day. That's just not practical in a build of this size.
> So filters are worth getting right from the start.


might try to do it with a single open-foam filter to remove the large particles at this stage then, i dont think ive got a large enough body of water to gravity feed more than one foam element really. it will be far too slow to filter through sand. i can see why it would be beneficial, but i just dont think my setup has enough water to make it work. as you say, Koi ponds have a fair bit more water in them!

vortex filters look pretty basic. just uses the swirl of the water to drop the larger particles to the bottom and saves on one stage of foam filtration i guess. i thought they might be using the vortex to increase the siphon effect.

i think weve got filters near enough covered now though. hopefully tomorrow there will be a fake rock update with pictures! wood has now arrived, so thats now ongoing, making up the external structure of the viv.


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## Vase

The main thing I've learnt when messing about with water, gravity and filtration is keep it simple. That lot look too complicated to work without problems IMO.

Personally I would be looking at doing it one of two ways, and that also depends on how much space you have under the Dragons pool.

You could have a bottom or side hole fitted with a bulkhead. Gravity taking the water into a decent external filter and then the external pumping the return to the top of the waterfall.

Or the same connection on the pool conected to a sump. Gravity feeds the water through whatever filter media you want and then a pump returns it to the waterfall. Fluidised bed filters are old school and no longer rated really. They're a lot of hassle for minimum reward. Whichever filter method you choose the only media I'd suggest is basic pond stuff really, so something like alfagrog and foams. 

Shouldnt need an overflow on the pool. You'll need to top up due to evaporation anyway. I'd put a tap inline though straight after the pool so you can empty the external or sump (if you use those methods) without having to drain the whole system.

Awesome work, cant wait to see this progress. Very interesting :2thumb:


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## Fence Up

Have you lost the key to your garage door?:whistling2:


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## Jim2109

my new arrivals have taken up some of my time lately (3 x water dragon babies). last weekend i was working to get their temporary viv ready for their arrival and that has taken up some spare time during the week as well. managed to get a few hours in yesterday and today. nothing interesting has happened, nothing worth taking pictures of. sanding down 25+ sq.ft of glass fibre layup takes time, then youve got to fill all the imperfections and sand it all again lol. its getting there, i should be ready to waterproof the fibreglass shell middle of next week (it will be ready this weekend, but ive got to order the coating yet).

the waterfall is getting there, ive been adding paint whenever ive got a spare 10 mins. it probably has a couple more coats of paint to get it looking how i want it. fake rocks need bonding to the fibreglass base and im still debating on whether to do this before or after the waterproofing for colour purposes.

also ive near enough figured out my filtration system. progress is slow but i always said it would be. id like to ideally have this all finished by the end of June, but end of July is the absolute latest i plan for.


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## trw

Whens the updates coming? i cant wait to see it finished.


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## Jim2109

soon. ive got some more done here and there, just nothing exciting. sanded fibreglass and varnished wood dont make for fun updates lol. varnish fumes are almost gone so then i can start gluing the viv together and ive got to finish off the base still. waiting on a friend to rout a piece of wood for the front of the base with a clear window into the water pool. then i can finish that off over a couple of days and then everything should come together a little faster


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## trw

cool, ive been following the progress and think it looks exellent so far, but think the finished think will be great.:2thumb:


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## JotnJosie

looking good can't wait to see the ending result


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## Jim2109

time for a MUCH overdue update!!! lots has happened, but nothing interesting with pictures up until the last week. so here goes....

i carried on making my base, got it nearly finished. lots of filling, sanding, filling, sanding. had it probably 95% done, just final touches left. but ive been reconsidering things for probably the past month as i have discovered a ton of new things that i had completely overlooked in my original design. also there were a few physical things about the base that i really wanted to change.

so i decided to bite the bullet and start again!! fairly crazy move, given the time and money invested into the original base (i estimate about £80-120 of expense, and probably 20-30 man hours). but its going to be so worth it in the long run. id only have ended up wanting to build another viv 6 months down the line otherwise. this way i should stay happier for a lot longer. when ive got my own place, however many years away that may be, il build something bigger anyway and then i can implement anything new ive learnt between now and then.

so the new base....

...has the front section for water, and the rear section for a bio-active substrate setup. waterfall goes front right, water runs down the river into the large pool. the pool is stepped with a shallower area around the rear edges and under the river section. onto these areas will go some rocks for the water dragons to climb out on, and there will be some in the river part as well. hopefully it will also rough the water up a bit as it flows down and make it seem more realistic for any swimming water dragons.

the water will be 13-14" deep at the deepest point, and there will probably be something like 150-160 litres of water in the viv alone (plus all the extra water in the filtration system. easily 250 litres total).

the back of the viv has the bio-active substrate in it. for anyone that doesnt know what it is, youve basically got large debris of some variety in the bottom few inches. ideally it should have plenty of space around it for water, and its even better if it can absorb water as well. some people use gravel, others use leca clay balls. il probably go with the latter. on top of this you have weed control fabric. its basically a permeable membrane, it allows water in and out, but doesnt allow dirt to fall through, and roots cant easily penetrate it. youve then got the various layers of substrate, essentially soil like youd find in a garden, but with a more tropical twist to it. inside this there are tropical woodlice, earthworms, springtails, etc processing the substrate. so a water dragon poos, or leaves fall off of plants, or live food dies on the soil. it gets dragged down over time, processed, and becomes compost to feed the plants. and the cycle continues!

on the bottom of this there will be a drain in case the water level gets too high, and il also have a water level indicator so i can see the water table height and drain if it gets excessive. in theory it should self sustain with both water and waste processing. but in reality i think it will need a stir from time to time, and the water will need draining sometimes (hence the tap).

finally, there will be a window in the water pool, as originally planned but since scrapped with the old base!! ive cut the hole. this will have a corresponding piece of 12mm perspex wedged into it and siliconed from the inside. once the base is within the main walls of the viv a front piece will be put in front of it to seal it to secure it at the front which will also be siliconed to the perspex and the window in this piece will be probably an inch smaller in every dimension. this will seal it completely and also hide the unsightly silicone beads.

thus far i have made the wooden frame and the internal frame work. im using space foam to make the raised areas in the pool and also to make the rock shapes. ive got PVC pond liner that im going to glue to the whole base as you see it in the photos to make sure that the wood is 100% protected from water. then il glue the rock shapes on top of this. il then grout the entire base in a few layers. paint the parts that will be visible. then finally il use epoxy resin of some description to seal and waterproof the whole lot. and ideally il find a way to make it less shiny (ive got some ideas to experiment with). then thats it done. build the main viv walls around it (wood is cut and has been varnished for a month now and is all fume free), silicone the edges, build the door system from perspex or similar, and then stick the interior items in!

as a note, the door system is going to consist of 3 or 4 doors vertically that open independently of each other. so i can open the bottom area, or the top area, or middle areas, or all of them at once. it means less heat and humidity escaping when i need to get inside the viv, less chance of water dragons escaping (6'x5' is a LARGE exposed area to try and monitor all of at once), and it will be completely frameless so there wont be any ugly wood blocking the view of the insides 

i need to do a write up of the electronics at some point as well as there is some awesome bits to go into the build. such as a custom dawn/dusk dimming setup ive made from some project electronics boards, and i need to go through what im doing for UV, heating, etc as ive covered it in another couple of threads but not in my build thread.

anyhow, heres the pictures (AT LAST!!)...


































P.S. for an idea of scale of how big this is, you can see my dad in the background stood next to it. also the garden chairs are about 3-4 feet from the table the base is sat on lol. its HUGE! you could easily fit a curled up adult in the substrate part alone. i cant wait to get it done!


.


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## Morgan Freeman

That's looking seriously good! Can't wait to see it finished!


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## trw

looking good. ur gonna be so lucky once its finished and ou get to look at it everyday


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## Duq

Just Wow.... Cant wait too see this when its finished


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## DaveAnscombe

This really will piss all over mine now Wont it 

Seriously impressive work 

I cannot wait to see this.....Can i come to see this in person once its finished?

Dave


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## Jim2109

DaveAnscombe said:


> This really will piss all over mine now Wont it
> 
> Seriously impressive work
> 
> I cannot wait to see this.....Can i come to see this in person once its finished?
> 
> Dave


sure, youre not that far away. still a little while til its complete, but hopefully not too long.


i made some more progress today, nothing amazing, but progress all the same. firsly i covered the whole thing in pond liner. its rather a complex shape to be using a single piece so i used multiple smaller pieces and glued them. it doesnt need to be water tight, its just a belt and braces approach to waterproofing it and it makes it easy to seal the seams when i put the base into the main viv walls. on top of the pond liner i then applied grout (excuse the 2 different colours, i had some left over which was white, and the new stuff is beige). only 1 layer so far, its so hot outside in the sun that the grout is cracking! il solve this issue in layer 2 by adding some water to the mix to stop it drying out so quickly. i may get away with 2 layers, probably going to need 3 though.


































after ive done the grout i need to paint the whole thing and then epoxy resin to seal it. also ive got some perspex on order for the window. il cut it to size so its a tight fit, wedge it in there, silicone the inside joins then grout over the outer 1cm of it to seal it all up. when the front fascia plate goes on the front will get silicone sealed as well. no chance of water getting past that!!


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## Fence Up

Oh no a complete restart. Was it keeping you awake at night?


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## Jim2109

not really keeping me awake at night, but everytime i went to work on it i was thinking that the time would be better spent starting again because there were a ton of changes i wanted to make. and everytime id read someone elses thread about their new viv build id want to redesign mine. so i just did lol. id have made it bigger as well, probably 7x6x4 instead of 7x5x3, but ive already got the wood for the walls cut, it cost £120, and i cant cut it myself easily (or transport the full sheets!). otherwise i probably would have!!

thats the next phase though. once i eventually have my own place with space that is mine to use, il probably build a monster viv. this current one cant be moved from where it is going to built because its too big to fit through the door, so if i move il have to build another one anyway. so thats my excuse!


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## Duq

Hell if ya doing a tour when its done! i'm only down the road in Yateley 

lol Cheeky :devil: i know but god it looks impressive :2thumb:


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## fourdown

yeah this looks fab so far!!!

nice work!

Ben


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## Alister

Best not have it upstaires if its weighing in excess of 300kg then! :lol2:


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## Jim2109

its going downstairs. in fairness with the size of the base and the distribution of the weight it wouldnt be an issue to have it upstairs anyway. my old TV weighed almost 100kg, me and my dad combined weigh about 170kg, and when we were carrying that around upstairs there was basically 250kg+ in a smaller area than the base of this viv without problems.

the water for this viv alone is going to weigh 170-200kg, wood weighs about 50kg, base another 20kg, furnishings probably 20kg. its going to be heavy for sure!


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## CWD

That MDF aint guna hold 200KG of water no way


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## Jim2109

the chipboard will. comfortably. the heaviest part is the main pool area, and that is basically the floor. underneath the floor is 18mm of oriented strand board.

the slightly raised areas in the pool, as well as the shallower river section will only have about 4-5" of water on them, there isnt much weight there. also you cant see the reinforcements underneath the river section. wood is incredibly strong in compression, and that long flimsy flat piece has vertical supports underneath it that you cant see in the pictures.

thats before any of the grout and resin are applied on top to create the exterior "shell".

im an engineer by profession, i overthink and over engineer pretty much everything anyway. this hasnt been an exception lol. the fibreglass base that i made before supported my bodyweight with less than 1mm of flex on the largest unsupported area!! this new base is stronger.

P.S. 200kg is 200 litres. the base will hold around 140 litres by my estimation, so only 140kg. the rest is in the filtration sump that is a seperate container entirely.


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## CWD

cool but 140 Kg is 22 stone mate a lot of water good luck looks good none the less


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## Alister

I study Civil and Structural Engineering at Newcastle :lol2: Hense why the loading was the first thing that sprung to mind! 

Alister


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## sam432

How much water is there going to be in there??


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## kelboy

Have you given up on this build? I was enjoying following it


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## Jim2109

not given up, been busy combined with weather not helping. it was too hot to do anything last week, and this week ive just not had any spare time and when i have its been raining. hopefully there will be some significant progress over the weekend, ive cleared enough space in the garage to work in there again.


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## Jim2109

a fresh update. things have moved along very slowly lately, but the base now has almost all of the grouting done. its got some rocks in the pool area to make it easier for water dragons to climb in and out (and to make it look more natural than square sided river banks lol), and it also has the perspex window fitted and sealed in!

another few days of grouting and that will be done, then i need to build the walls around the base, grout the base to the walls to seal it all in, and then paint the entire thing (base and walls). ive recycled my waterfall from the original base idea and il try and get a picture of that slotted into place later, that will be glued to the wall and grouted to the base to seal it all into place. then to finish it all off ive got a big bucket of epoxy resin based pond sealant to seal the whole thing up once its painted.

the biggest problem at present is that there is a giant TV in the "reptile" room which means i cant build the new viv until its gone. hopefully it will be gone in a couple of weeks as a friend is buying it off me. from then on it should be smooth sailing. hopefully.


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## pymn nice but dim

wow looking good is that the same base as before whats next to do with that?

its huuuuge maybe want to finish it in its final resting place or is it not to heavy at the moment?


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## Jim2109

its the same base as in the last few updates, its not the same one as the very original fibreglass one though. i abandoned that and started again because i wanted to change some stuff.

at present it weighs about 50-60kg, its only going to gain in weight by a few more kg before it gets moved, and the walls will get built around it in its final resting place so thats not a problem. its too big to fit through the door so it will never be moved out of that room again, but it will be on casters to move it around the room if i ever need to.

when i eventually move out it will give me an excuse to build an even bigger viv in the new place. id like to have an entire room turned into a jungle lol


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## The T Lord

Any news mate?
John


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## DaveAnscombe

So far so good bud.keep it all going


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## Jim2109

The T Lord said:


> Any news mate?
> John


nothing exciting really. the grouting is all practically done, ended up with about 5 layers in some areas to get it all stiff enough. i need to build the viv itself in situ since it is too large to go through a door. id also like to build it around the base as it makes things easier. the issue being that it requires a ton of space to do that, and in the room where im building it there is currently a 50" rear projection TV taking up LOTS of space! as soon as its taken away by my mate whos buying it then the build can move forwards.

another issue is that ive got to do all the epoxy resin application in situ as well, so i may have to relocate the viv elsewhere for a week to avoid fume exposure, there arent any spare rooms though so i may have to wait until my brother goes back to uni so i can steal his room lol.

its coming along, just slowly. once the outer framework all gets built progress will accelerate. it needs to get done fairly soon because my larger water dragon is starting to show signs of wanting more space to roam in. hes at the glass more often (even though its covered on the inside) and spends most of his time sat at the glass on the upper shelf in the viv looking out. i think he wants more space to play in.


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## Jim2109

i made some more progress today after a few weeks of not spending any time on it. ive built most of the exterior frame now, its absolutely massive!! i never envisaged how big it was going to be until its built lol. i can stand up inside it at 6'2", with head room, and can almost fully stretch my arms out sideways inside it lol. i reckon it would be possible to fit 15 adults inside it if they all squeezed together lol. that gives an idea of scale.

il wait until ive got the top and the base attached and then il get some photos. at present its just a load of wood stuck together. once the base is inside as well it will give a better idea of what its going to end up like.


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## DaveAnscombe

pics pics pics pics :no1:


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## Jim2109

DaveAnscombe said:


> pics pics pics pics :no1:


ask and you shall receive. please bear in mind when viewing the pictures that the ceiling is almost 8 feet tall, and the room is around 15 x 10 feet. only then can you appreciate the sheer scale of this thing. the viv sat next to it which you can just see in one of the pics is 3 feet high and 18" deep!


















the overall vivarium is all built, all outer walls screwed together. and today, after some arm-destroying sanding of the sides of the base because it was ever so slightly too large, i have now inserted it into its final resting place!!

next job is to finish the grouting (the random spray paint on the base is just to indicate to me where i still need to grout) and grout the base to the outer walls to seal it all in. im going to stick some screws through the side to secure it as well. ive got to get a front piece made up as well to hold the base and also hide the ugly work around the perspex window (this was always the plan), and after that its fitting the waterfall, fitting all the plumbing, lots of painting, epoxy resin over the top of everything to seal it all. and then fill it up with "furnishings".

hopefully it will be done by the end of September, all being well. thats my new target.


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## DaveAnscombe

Effing hugeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee jim ...super jelous...mines finished now


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## NightGecko

Looks like this is going to be a good'un : victory: Can't wait to see it finished.


I am putting a roughneck in my cwd viv now instead, but when he outgrows it I may build him a bigger one and use your waterfall idea


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## victoriagillies

I'm following this for sure. This is nuts!

Keep it up man.


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## suey

No, i'm sorry.....i'm far too impatient to wait until the end of September...can't you work through the night on it! )


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## trw

looking good. its huge. cant wait to see the finished product:no1:


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## shirokage

This things crazy... I've only just got my CWD settled in his big viv and I'm already getting tempted into building something big like this! Very inspiring mate. :2thumb:


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## shirokage

Hows it coming along...? I'm dying to see this finished


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## ObsessedWithSerpents

incredible


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## trw

any more updates coming soon? cant wait to see it finished its gona be amazing.


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## Jim2109

there might be an update later this week if i get time to do any more on it. the waterfall is in now, but not a lot else has happened. i need to pull my finger out a bit. it needs lots of grout and then some paint.


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## ObsessedWithSerpents

anything new yet??


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## Jim2109

yeh, but nothing worthy of pictures. just the long slow grouting process. im working on it in small spells at present, every few days i find a spare couple of hours for it. when theres something worth taking a photo of il do a proper update, for now its just boring stuff.


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## chondro13

im desperate for progress on this build lol!!


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## Jim2109

ive got at least 2 full days set aside for this over the next week, as i really need to make some progress. the water dragons are growing fast and need to be seperated within the next month i think, although they are showing no signs of aggression or sexual activity, but better safe than sorry. so there should be an update soon.

i need to get busy making my fake tree first as thats a fairly integral part of the setup. once that is made i need to get the plumbing ready too as i cant finish the grouting until the pipework is in as it needs to be sealed. there is probably 2-3 more layers of grout required (it takes 2 days to dry, which slows progress!) across the entire base to make sure its all absolutely solid structurally. then the painting begins. the painting may potentially take quite a while as im going to a realistic rainforest scene as the background. ive got a couple of artists enlisted for that job (aka my sister and her boyfriend lol), and once all the texturing and painting is done its a question of sealing everything with resin, airing it for a month whilst also trial running the heating and lighting, then testing the water system (which i can build the sump for whilst i am letting everything air out) before finally adding a single water dragon to the setup hopefully around Xmas.

oh, and not to mention the live plants and bio-active substrate. im hoping a single small water dragon wont be destructive enough to disturb that aspect too much so that by the time the other 2 get added (pending their gender) Xmas 2010 it will all be properly established and flourishing! thats the plan anyway.


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## Jim2109

small update. the base is now only 1-2 more coats of grout from completion of its basic structure, but it looks exactly the same as before but with a waterfall now added. then comes painting and sealing. ive got to add the plumbing connections for the water filtration system as well, and i need to get a piece of wood cut for the front of the base to secure that in as that will need some grout work to seal the base to it as well. the waterfall needs a bit more work still, and then the trees need adding!










which brings me to the next part of my progress, tree number 1. this is going in the far right corner as you look at the viv. its a long way from complete, the photos just show the first stages of basic shaping, the buttress roots havent been shaped at all yet they are just raw foam.

i made it by gluing and pinning (with cocktail sticks) a couple of pieces of polystyrene together at 90 degrees, with some supports in the middle to hold them there. then i glued a load of extra bits on for the buttress roots. then i used about 5 litres of expanding foam to create the basic shape, building it up slowly, layer by layer. then ive shaped the trunk a bit with a saw blade and surform planes, and have added more foam where needed. il repeat this process til im 100% happy with it. then ive got to shape the roots as well which is the harder part, and add knots to the tree, etc.

ive already dug out one planter near the base of the tree, i plan to have half a dozen of them placed around the tree. then once ive done all this shaping its grouting time, then painting, then sealing and natural texturing (e.g. moss and dirt mixed into the sealant). i also want to make a less complex half-tree to go in the middle of the back wall. fake rock is so last year, and water dragons live in trees. my fake rocks are the waterfall and a few areas in the water pool, the background is going to be these 2 fake trees then the rest will be a painted rainforest scene. hopefully it will look realistic.


















so thats as far as ive got. i bought most of the parts for the filtration system this week, ive got a few more bits on order and then a few more to still get. but its getting there slowly. my new target is to have it done by Xmas, but given my previous form sometime in 2010 is more likely lol.

ive completely sussed the filtration system now though. ive made a bad drawing of it in Paint for anyone whos interested....










basically an Eheim Compact 2000+ pump runs externally and pulls water out of the pool in the vivarium. there will be 2 feeds, one is going to be a surface skimmer (in the form of a basic overflow box design), the other will pull water from the bottom through a straight pipe. this should capture the debris most efficiently and stop the surface of the water developing a film and capture floating insects, etc. the pump will then mash the larger particles up like a blender prior to them reaching the filtration sump.

the Eheim pump then sends the dirty water into the sump filter system via a fairly coarse sock filter (so it doesnt block up too fast, i may go finer later depending how the coarse one works). this will capture most of the large particles which will then either break up into smaller ones, or sit in the filter. this filter will get cleaned on a regular basis since doing so is very easy. it can be cleaned daily if required.

the water then flows through the sump, minus large particles, and through the bio balls which will give the biological filtration.

next stop is the holding tank. in here there will be a bag of activated carbon to capture more nasties, this will require changing probably every month, but should keep the water fairly clean.

a small pump will send water to a UV steriliser which will return it back through the sock filter. this will kill off any parasites, algae, etc.

also in the holding tank will be a protein skimmer, but i havent drawn that in. im not sure if it will work or not, in theory it shouldnt work in freshwater, but there will be so much dirt in the water that maybe it will. ive got one sat around so i might as well use it. it arrived smashed to pieces and the seller on here never refunded me (thanks for that, you know who you are, and i hope you liked the negative feedback). but ive managed to bodge it back together. il see if it works or not, if not then it wont be needed, if it does then its just some added filtration!

the water is then heated and returns back to the vivarium via the outlet pipe, which will work on the principle of water finding its level, and the sump and viv being at the same floor level, no pump required.

the pump is capable of 1000-2000 litres/hour, so if i run it at full pelt it should recycle the water in the vivarium approximately every 3-4 minutes! il probably run it at its lowest setting, and this should keep the water plenty clean enough. the water dragons use it maybe 3 or 4 times per day, so in theory it should go through the filter 20-30 times between each use. if that doesnt clean it then nothing will.

the waterfall will operate off of a seperate small pump and only operate during the day. the rest of the filtration system has to run 24/7.


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## ObsessedWithSerpents

looks great keep up the great work:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


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## Morgan Freeman

If you put as much effort into your viv as you did your long posts....:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Nah, looking good. I can't imagine the protein skimmer working, worth a try though.


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## Santa_

Fantastic


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## NINJATURTLETOM

Cant wait to see the finished project!


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## trw

any more updates before next year?


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## Jim2109

nope, nothing much more has happened. i finished off the foam tree, and made another. neither has been grouted yet though. ive had too much other stuff to do, then Xmas came along, and January is typically my busiest month of the year.

so its going to be a while before i get any more time to spend on it. ive given up setting targets lol, when its finished its finished.


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## adam151082

cant wait to see this finished.:2thumb:


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## Joshuar.

Any news to report? :mf_dribble:


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## Jim2109

this time of year is crazy busy with work, so its unlikely there will be any major progress for a few months, i just dont have the time to spend on it. my water dragons have suitable homes for the forseeable future, so there is less pressure on getting this viv finished. as soon as i make any progress il update the thread. the next jobs are to get a piece of wood sorted to finish the front of the viv and then finish off the last bits of grout in the base. and to grout the giant fake trees that i havent yet taken final pics of. the fake trees are going to take a LONG time. then it all needs painting and sealing and a few bits of plumbing adding. its actually not that far off completion, but i just need to find a few free days when i can really get stuck into it.


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## mikeyanimals

looking great wish my C.W.D had something like that maybe they will 1 day but not just yet and probably not ass big a water mass lol i probs wouldnt make it safe enough for him lol do you have an estimated date on when it will be done and are ther any new pics lol


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## mikeyanimals

sorry to put 2 reply's but i really like the look of this so ill give you some questions how much would the full viv /paludarium cost with out all heating/lighting and filtration if you don't want to make it public plz pm me and how big is the full viv including pool at bottom i am really considering building 1 for my C,W,D with the help of a carpenter that is lol plz write back 
:lol2:

mikey


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## Jim2109

mikeyanimals said:


> sorry to put 2 reply's but i really like the look of this so ill give you some questions how much would the full viv /paludarium cost with out all heating/lighting and filtration if you don't want to make it public plz pm me and how big is the full viv including pool at bottom i am really considering building 1 for my C,W,D with the help of a carpenter that is lol plz write back
> :lol2:
> 
> mikey


i stopped keeping track of what i was spending about 2 months into building it, otherwise id have just gone mental at myself lol. the viv itself would probably cost about £350-400 in materials all in. the wood was about £150, ive used at least £60 of grout, another £50 on expanding foam, £15 on varnish, £80 on epoxy waterproofing paint, then theres still money to be spent on vents, perspex, etc. the little things like screws soon add up too.

the filtration system will cost probably another £300 on top of that.

then the electronics and everything to run it, plus furniture, etc, probably another £400.

easily £1000 once its all done, probably quite a bit more. im not including the £100 or so i spent on experimental stuff that didnt work out. i had my original fibreglass base about 70% finished before i changed my idea and scrapped it. im not 100% happy with the current base, but im determined to stick it out now. then in a few years il build a new viv with the new ideas. its a nightmare, because you constantly learn from your mistakes when youre making something like this for the first time, and if you restart it everytime you learn something new you just never get it finished. which is kinda whats slowed my progress down so much. i keep adding new ideas into the mix. like the life-sized fake trees!!

the overall viv size is 5ft wide, 3ft deep and i think a little over 7ft tall. the base will be holding 14" deep water in the deepest part, and 14" deep substrate on the other side. il be placing the Megaray UV bulbs above the viv shining in through holes in the roof so that the full height of the viv can be utilised. the waterfall is about 3 feet tall. the 2 trees which i havent taken final pictures of yet are the full height of the viv and about 10" wide. they are easily the coolest part of the viv build so far. i need to get them grouted.


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## mikeyanimals

thanks lol that is 1 huge viv lol mine wont be as big or as complicated lol just something more like its natural environment probs just about 6' tall ans 4' in length with a simple poll but im gunna try and get a window like yours very nice idea with simple filtration and derange maybe mine will end up like yours (i wish lol) i keep looking back saying that looks good ill try that lol i best start saving lol it shouldn't cost to much i hope i might just put an addon to the bottom of my viv give it extra height and room for a pond i will have to start drawing 2moz see what is easier for me lol cant wait to see the viv completed 
thanks again 
mikey


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## mikeyanimals

hey any thing new worth writing about lol cant wait to see the end product lol plus a bump as this is a very usefull thread


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## jme2049

WOW! great build. i could never imagine making something as big as that. Good luck with the outcome, i know theres a ton of people on here desperate to see it finished. Good luck once again:2thumb:


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## Jim2109

literally nothing has happened since before Xmas, and nothing is likely to for a while. ive had absolutely no spare time for it. and im tied up for at least the next month. once work settles down a bit il have time to make some progress.


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## trw

any updates on the way soon? id almost forgotten about this thread


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## clob91

??? updates? :gasp:


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## sambridge15

yea i think this is well overdue an update


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## ian_lawton

Did this ever get finished?


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## s6t6nic6l

ian_lawton said:


> Did this ever get finished?


 :hmm: makes you wonder dunnit, a year since last reply. just hope everyfinks a ok


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## dave2034

here here must be busy hope all is ok


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## GeckoD

I'm a little ticked off tbh i looked at the start date of this thread having never seen it before and thought awesome poured myself a glass and rolled a couple of **** ready and...would you look at this s**t!!! lol I really hope he gets this updated soon! I think it probably the most in depth builds I've seen and it's huge! Come on guy! 
FINISH WHAT YOU STARTED!!!!!!!!



(ps. great work! truly inspiring)


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## jasper89

so why didnt you just use fibre glass ?? its cheap enough !!!???


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## deevtec

Aaaaarrrrggggghhhhh was wantin to this done it looked amazing defo best build thread I ever seen hope to see it finished soon


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## Jim2109

sorry guys, never got it finished!! in fact it hasnt moved on from the last update. its pretty much a dead project now, my water dragons are being sold. just dont have any time to spare at the moment as i run my own business. maybe one day it will get finished, but as it stands probably not. id probably start again from scratch if i was going to as ive got far better ideas on how to redo some of the stuff anyway.


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## PESKY

Jim2109 said:


> sorry guys, never got it finished!! in fact it hasnt moved on from the last update. its pretty much a dead project now, my water dragons are being sold. just dont have any time to spare at the moment as i run my own business. maybe one day it will get finished, but as it stands probably not. id probably start again from scratch if i was going to as ive got far better ideas on how to redo some of the stuff anyway.


 
I dont think this could have ended any blunter ha classic! :2thumb:


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## mrcarlxx

what a bummer, it looked like a epic build. shame you didnt finish it..


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## Iguanaquinn

NNNNoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


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## nick19

wow i just read every post on this thread and its not being finished what a bummer hope you do another soon dude this was looking awsome


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## balmybaldwin

Don't suppose you want to sell that base you made do you? could be very useful in my next build:whistling2:


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## tomcannon

The title needs the addition of "expect to be deeply disappointed if you read from start to finish," I just wasted a good hour of my life and was so excited half way through... What an epic semi-build!


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## sambridge15

i remember reading through this ages ago and being gutted it wasnt finished allthough all of us posting and bumping it up doesnt help haha


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## kirky1980

dam you who ever bumped this thread i thought there was an update on it :devil:


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## abadi

I haven't seen this thread before, reading it from the beginning and it's not even finished, total disappointment.

Good luck finishing it, and give us some updates for goodness sake! : victory:


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## DeanDavies

AMAZING, ive read from start to finish... have you given up on us?
Were all itching for updates :lol2:

:no1:


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