# when did crossbreeds become fashionable?



## *mogwai* (Feb 18, 2008)

genuinely interested to know. a few years back cross breed puppies were either given away or sold for small amount, £50 say. know they're given (IMO) stupid names and cost the same as a pedigree kc registered pup. when & why did this happen? 
i'm sort of on the lookout for another dog (although i may be getting one of my rescues back but that's a whole other story) and it really is like playing guess the breed. these are some the breeds i've come across:
zuchon
bug
shi chi
yochon

who makes these things up? my friend paid £500 for a morky. why not just get a yorkshire terrier, the ones i've seen for sale aren't as much as £500.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

I have no idea when it became popular, I think the Labradoodles captured a market and triggered a flood of silly named crosses. I did once want a Flat coat retriever cross, I love flatcoats but felt maybe a cross would have a slightly reduced chance of the bone cancers common to the breed but I wouldn't have given it a silly name like a Flatgold or something.

I think it is silly, but then I play World of Warcraft and most people will think that is silly, so you know, each to their own.

I had to laugh recently at a malamute/golden retriever cross litter sold as Maligolds!


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## Tricky&TheFox (Nov 30, 2008)

No idea when this happens, but those breeds you listed I've never heard of lol!


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## Joolz1975 (Jul 23, 2009)

Yeh ive thought the same, we recently went to look at Puggles (pug x beagle) they were from £1200 upwards yet could have had a beagle or pug pure bred for less!

We paid £6 for our lab cross when i was a kid and he was the best dog ever!

Its ridiculous how much these designer cross breeds are!


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Cross breeds have always been fashionable, then after a while they get called a breed. 
I always wonder if people had these conversations when an alsation, poodle, corgi etc were first bred.


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## Nicky10 (Mar 16, 2010)

A few years ago I got Buster nearly 5 years and designer dogs were starting to become the fashion accessory for all the celebs so everyone else started buying and breeding them. But he was free as the owner refused to take money for a cross. She'd clearly never heard of the DD thing she thought he was cairn/westie that's a designer cross cairnland terrier she could have sold him for hundreds


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## harlequin (Oct 28, 2008)

I didnt know they were 'fashionable', I dont really get why people pay loads for pedigree pure breeds, dogs are dogs are dogs, the dog I like the look of best happens to be a cross breed, if I find some for sale i'll pay whatever the person is asking because I want the dog but I think its lunacy to pay huge amounts for dogs full stop, why does a pure bred pedigree cost more than a heinz 57? the heinz will probably be healthier and live longer.

I guess people have been wanting these cross breeds for a while and now someone has done them they are in enough demand they can charge the earth for them?
I love labradors, and I love rottweilers, and I think 450 or whatever is a silly amount to pay for either of them but thats what breeders charge, if I find myself a lab/rotti cross ill pay a stupid amount for that as well, becuase its what I want.

The whole dog industry is a bit nuts really!


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## *mogwai* (Feb 18, 2008)

Joolz1975 said:


> Yeh ive thought the same, we recently went to look at Puggles (pug x beagle) they were from £1200 upwards yet could have had a beagle or pug pure bred for less!


how much? :gasp: 

puggles are lovely though but £1200, who thought that price up?


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## BecciBoo (Aug 31, 2007)

Labradoodle :Na_Na_Na_Na:








:flrt:


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

have to admit i saw a STUNNING cross at the vets the other day
the lady was old and she got this cockerpoodle to stop the hair moulting issue.
he was TRULY stunning


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## Joolz1975 (Jul 23, 2009)

freekygeeky said:


> have to admit i saw a STUNNING cross at the vets the other day
> the lady was old and she got this cockerpoodle to stop the hair moulting issue.
> he was TRULY stunning


We looked cockapoodles when we went top see the Puggles, they were quite nice but im not a poodle fan so it put me off as the breeder said as a pup its hard to see who it will resemble more as an adult a cocker or a poodle and i dont want a poodley dog!

Decided to go for a Cocker instead which is going to cost me £650!

My husband isnt impressed he thinks its stupid money but he spends that over a few months on nights out and football matches etc... so he hasnt got a leg to stand on really!


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## Joolz1975 (Jul 23, 2009)

teshu said:


> how much? :gasp:
> 
> puggles are lovely though but £1200, who thought that price up?


Yeh its sill money they used to charge £1400 but have lowered the price!

Foxisle Gundogs
Puggles-r-us

The same couple own Foxisle and Puggles r us, just looked at the Puggles r us site and they must be struggling to sell them as they have lowered the price of them!

These breed dogs on a large scale, we visited them they seemed ok but decided not top buy from them in the end.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

harlequin said:


> I didnt know they were 'fashionable', I dont really get why people pay loads for pedigree pure breeds, dogs are dogs are dogs, the dog I like the look of best happens to be a cross breed, if I find some for sale i'll pay whatever the person is asking because I want the dog but I think its lunacy to pay huge amounts for dogs full stop, why does a pure bred pedigree cost more than a heinz 57? the heinz will probably be healthier and live longer.
> 
> I guess people have been wanting these cross breeds for a while and now someone has done them they are in enough demand they can charge the earth for them?
> I love labradors, and I love rottweilers, and I think 450 or whatever is a silly amount to pay for either of them but thats what breeders charge, if I find myself a lab/rotti cross ill pay a stupid amount for that as well, becuase its what I want.
> ...


Hybrid vigour is a myth. Crossbreeds are no healthier than pedigrees. Especially not crossbreeds bred by the kind of people making these crosses, as no self respecting breeder would waste a really good healthy beautiful example of a specific breed on making mongrels - so the majority of these have parents which are not breeding quality.

Well bred pedigrees are worth the money you pay. Because their parents will be exceptional quality (eg. not just looks, we're talking health, temperament, the whole package), they will have been health tested to make sure they're not carrying any genetic illnesses, hip scored etc. The cost of picking up (or even importing) breeding quality animals is high, as is good diet for mum and pups, good housing, etc. In other words, if you use the right breeder - you will get what you pay for.

But if you pick any old breeder out of the free ads, you're probably going to end up with someone who either has pet standard parents and doesn't health test, or someone who cares more about show results than health and temperament. You need the all round package.

IMO, breed rescue will always be my first choice if I wanted a pedigree animal. BUT I wouldn't rule out paying money to a GOOD breeder, and would find one by researching them - not just picking the cheapest/nearest/only one with babies available NOW - out of the paper.


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## *mogwai* (Feb 18, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> Hybrid vigour is a myth. Crossbreeds are no healthier than pedigrees. Especially not crossbreeds bred by the kind of people making these crosses, as no self respecting breeder would waste a really good healthy beautiful example of a specific breed on making mongrels - so the majority of these have parents which are not breeding quality.
> 
> Well bred pedigrees are worth the money you pay. Because their parents will be exceptional quality (eg. not just looks, we're talking health, temperament, the whole package), they will have been health tested to make sure they're not carrying any genetic illnesses, hip scored etc. The cost of picking up (or even importing) breeding quality animals is high, as is good diet for mum and pups, good housing, etc. In other words, if you use the right breeder - you will get what you pay for.
> 
> ...


agreed


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## Joolz1975 (Jul 23, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> Hybrid vigour is a myth. Crossbreeds are no healthier than pedigrees. Especially not crossbreeds bred by the kind of people making these crosses, as no self respecting breeder would waste a really good healthy beautiful example of a specific breed on making mongrels - so the majority of these have parents which are not breeding quality.
> 
> Well bred pedigrees are worth the money you pay. Because their parents will be exceptional quality (eg. not just looks, we're talking health, temperament, the whole package), they will have been health tested to make sure they're not carrying any genetic illnesses, hip scored etc. The cost of picking up (or even importing) breeding quality animals is high, as is good diet for mum and pups, good housing, etc. In other words, if you use the right breeder - you will get what you pay for.
> 
> ...





teshu said:


> agreed


Agreed also, the breeder we are getting our cocker from is over 2 hours from us and we are having to wait till the end of August because the dog has only just been mated, even then it might not happen if she doesnt fall pregnant! will just have to wait if not but i have my fingers crossed for a golden cocker boy from the litter!!

Its took me weeks of research to find a breeder i was happy with!


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Labradoodles were first 'tried' by the charities such as dogs for the Blind and hearing dogs for the deaf in a bid to produce a non shedding dog that was safe to use by allergy sufferers. They no longer produce this cross as it didn't live upto expectations and failed to produce the non shedding poodle factor in each litter or for second generation pups.

Things really took off after Pedigree dogs exposed alleged the hybrid vigor myth and of course the 'bad' show pedigree dog myth - Show folk really don't want to be producing substandard pups their career is made or lost by reputation.

As the old saying goes A fool and his/her money are soon parted - know pom/pug/bulldog breeders who don't charge that much for a pedigree pup from health screened parents!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

It was a silly excuse, anyone with half a brain knows that it's the dander, not the hair, that is the cause of most allergies, and even non-shedding or even hairless dogs have skin.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

Labradoodles are a little different, as all good breeders know that an F1 should not be classed as a labradoodle - it is simply a Lab X Poodle. It isn't until a line has been developed and you are at least a few generations on that you should have the nerve to call it a Labradoodle.

I think the mashup names are stupid. In a way, they are just cutie names invented to get more money for the pups and try to pass them off as a new and exciting breed - when really, they are cross breeds.


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## hullhunter (Apr 19, 2009)

teshu said:


> genuinely interested to know. a few years back cross breed puppies were either given away or sold for small amount, £50 say. know they're given (IMO) stupid names and cost the same as a pedigree kc registered pup. *when & why did this happen*?
> i'm sort of on the lookout for another dog (although i may be getting one of my rescues back but that's a whole other story) and it really is like playing guess the breed. these are some the breeds i've come across:
> zuchon
> bug
> ...


because there are mugs out there who will pay it so there are puppy peddlers why will breed them. 
what do you call a bull dog cross shitzu?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
A BULLSH*T


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## BecciBoo (Aug 31, 2007)

mattm said:


> Labradoodles are a little different, as all good breeders know that an F1 should not be classed as a labradoodle - it is simply a Lab X Poodle. It isn't until a line has been developed and you are at least a few generations on that you should have the nerve to call it a Labradoodle.
> 
> I think the mashup names are stupid. In a way, they are just cutie names invented to get more money for the pups and try to pass them off as a new and exciting breed - when really, they are cross breeds.


:roll:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

mattm said:


> Labradoodles are a little different, as all good breeders know that an F1 should not be classed as a labradoodle - it is simply a Lab X Poodle. It isn't until a line has been developed and you are at least a few generations on that you should have the nerve to call it a Labradoodle.
> 
> I think the mashup names are stupid. In a way, they are just cutie names invented to get more money for the pups and try to pass them off as a new and exciting breed - when really, they are cross breeds.


Yep, I bet if all the rescues changed their dogs needing homes description to "Coffie" (collie x staffie) or "Shepherllie" (shepherd x collie) or "grippeerhound" (whippet/greyhound/deerhound lurcher lol), and then advertised them on Preloved, all the shallow chavs would want one!


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> It was a silly excuse, anyone with half a brain knows that it's the dander, not the hair, that is the cause of most allergies, and even non-shedding or even hairless dogs have skin.


Actually that's not true you can have an allergy to either dander OR hair OR both. My daughter has allergies and AE, she can't spend time with any furry animal or even a hair trapped in our clothing yet can spend hrs with Sphinx cats and some hairless chinese cresteds without suffering anaphylaxic shock.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Ok I shall reword it. 99% of people with allergies are allergic to the dander and/or saliva. Hairless or non-shedding breeds might not make _some people_ react _as much_, but they are by no means "hypoallergenic".


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## Nicky10 (Mar 16, 2010)

I have a dog that's supposed to be almost hypoallergenic my little cousin takes a very bad reaction to him however she's fine with their long coat chihuahua and lhasa apso. It just depends on what sets the allergy off the hypoallergenic breeds/mixes aren't always hypoallergenic


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## *mogwai* (Feb 18, 2008)

new question, sort of.

what are the chances of the kennel club recognising any of these new 'breeds'? and when was the last new breed recognised by the kennel club & what was it?

all dogs are essentially cross breeds aren't they so is it just a matter of time before you can kc reg your zuchon/shi chi/puggle etc


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

teshu said:


> new question, sort of.
> 
> what are the chances of the kennel club recognising any of these new 'breeds'? and when was the last new breed recognised by the kennel club & what was it?
> 
> all dogs are essentially cross breeds aren't they so is it just a matter of time before you can kc reg your zuchon/shi chi/puggle etc


 
Far as I can remember the last one I know of is the Urasian (which is a chow cross breed) and they only started about in the 80's. I know the lady who imported the very first ones into the UK and started up the club for them and did all the work to get them onto the KC import register. Still a long way to go before they will get the same status as longterm breeds.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

The most important criteria I believe before even considering calling what you have a breed is for the breed to breed true, ie the puppies will look like their parents within predictable limits. This is something a very long way off for any designer crossbreed I have heard of, for example how random Labradoodle puppies come out, anywhere from pureish lab looking, to pureish poodle looking, to those wirehaired gundog looking types in the middle.

btw, I knew someone with a curly coated retriever at a training course about 3 years back, I swear she was close to homicidal when asked if he was a labradoodle, Im not exaggerating, I really think she could kill over it.


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## ownedbyroxy (Jan 27, 2009)

teshu said:


> genuinely interested to know. a few years back cross breed puppies were either given away or sold for small amount, £50 say. know they're given (IMO) stupid names and cost the same as a pedigree kc registered pup. when & why did this happen?
> i'm sort of on the lookout for another dog (although i may be getting one of my rescues back but that's a whole other story) and it really is like playing guess the breed. these are some the breeds i've come across:
> zuchon
> bug
> ...


What's a zuchon? Bichon crossed with ??


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## ownedbyroxy (Jan 27, 2009)

Joolz1975 said:


> Yeh its sill money they used to charge £1400 but have lowered the price!
> 
> Foxisle Gundogs
> Puggles-r-us
> ...



Thats a hell of a lot of dogs they are pumping out. 
£950-£1200 for a pug x beagle? Bloody ridiculous.


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

teshu said:


> new question, sort of.
> 
> what are the chances of the kennel club recognising any of these new 'breeds'? and when was the last new breed recognised by the kennel club & what was it?
> 
> all dogs are essentially cross breeds aren't they so is it just a matter of time before you can kc reg your zuchon/shi chi/puggle etc


No chance I have a olde Tyme bulldog there part of a breeding project to improve and restore the bulldog inwhich the founder was awarded a kennell club recognisition award there a grand each but still not recognised.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

They do say the likely only future for the pug is by crossing in another breed, as the current gene pool is so small it is unsustainable. 

They was also an article of wiping out the kidney issues in dalamations by breeding in another breed, though in that case I think the dog is 90% dalmation and many generations from the cross bred one.


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## Nicky10 (Mar 16, 2010)

In those cases crossing dallies with pointers to remove kidney issues or to widen the gene pool then fair enough if it's done properly. Not just throwing two breeds together randomly sticking a stupid name on them and selling them for a lot of money. I think those dalmation/pointer dogs can be shown as dalmations now


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## ownedbyroxy (Jan 27, 2009)

Kare said:


> *They do say the likely only future for the pug is by crossing in another breed, as the current gene pool is so small it is unsustainable. *
> 
> They was also an article of wiping out the kidney issues in dalamations by breeding in another breed, though in that case I think the dog is 90% dalmation and many generations from the cross bred one.



Not heard this before? Where did you hear this from?


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## Joolz1975 (Jul 23, 2009)

ownedbyroxy said:


> Thats a hell of a lot of dogs they are pumping out.
> £950-£1200 for a pug x beagle? Bloody ridiculous.


Yeh they breed on a large scale! The dogs seemed well looked after and happy but they wanted to charge £750 for a Cocker Pup that wasnt even KC registered!

They knew their stuff and we stayed for ages looking around and chatting but wouldnt buy from there! 

When we first came away i have to say i was quite impressed with the set up and the knowledge they had but as times gone on ive got a bit more suspicious about the place!


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

The dalmations you speak of are imports who have a pointer in their pedigree 10 generations back, they are registered as dalmations, their progeny will be registered as dalmations. The KC were consulted about this and disucussed it for a long time before they were passed as dalmations and entered the gene pool - they don't suffer from the Uric acid problem some dalamations have.

The last breed to be recognised for the import register that I know of is the Lesser Swiss Mountain dog back in October 08 I think, met some at the Bernese mountain dog show recently lol. Any breed that wants KC recognition has to already be recognised under FCI or other country KC that has a reciprical agreement with our KC.

I don't know of anyway of designing a new breed and gaining KC recognition, the olde tyme bulldogs are viewed as designer crosses nothing more, the last time I spoke with the ABS people. There is some suggestion that the ABS will be opened up to breeders of designer crosses IF they test for all known health issues found in ALL breeds related to the cross they're breeding.


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## Nicky10 (Mar 16, 2010)

I think first they have to be producing pretty standard puppies so not too much variation, have a standard, a breed club who keeps to the standard. But it's a very long process. The mexican hairless was accepted at the same time as the Greater Swiss Mountain Dogs I think and both are established breeds


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## *mogwai* (Feb 18, 2008)

ownedbyroxy said:


> What's a zuchon? Bichon crossed with ??


don't know. see it is like playing guess the breed lol. i guessed it was a bichon frise x shih tzu but there were no pics so it really is just a guess.


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## Nicky10 (Mar 16, 2010)

Bichon/shih tzu according to dogbreedinfo


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## ownedbyroxy (Jan 27, 2009)

teshu said:


> don't know. see it is like playing guess the breed lol. i guessed it was a bichon frise x shih tzu but there were no pics so it really is just a guess.



Thats what my 1st guess was. But most designer breeds have the 1st part of each name rammed together, i.e cocker-poo / labradoodle. So i was scratching my head for a breed beginning with z and couldn't think of one. 


ETA: just found this. 
Zuchon, Shichon, Bichon Shih Tzu Hybrid, Shichons

*rolls eyes*


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## walder (Dec 10, 2008)

I think something needs to be done to crack down on dog breeding full stop in this country.

There are far too many unscrupulous breeders of both so called designer dogs and purebreeds. Unfortunately these people spoil things for the genuine breeders.

I fully agree with what has been said about the myth of hybrids being more healthy.

The only way to try to aim for healthy puppies is to breed from health tested dogs, not to let your bitch get caught by a dog you like the look of just to make a quick buck.

I also disagree with what has been said about pure breeds being over priced. If they have been bred correctly then the breeder should be making little or no profit from a litter.

There are plenty of backyard breeders about though who cut corners and do make money out of puppies as that is all their interest in breeding dogs runs to. Looking at Preloved, Epupz and Pets4homes just depresses me!

If I ever get the chance to have a dog again I would either rescue a needy dog or do my research and find a GOOD breeder.

In my opinion if a dog is not purebred and of show standard it should be neutered.


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## *mogwai* (Feb 18, 2008)

walder said:


> I think something needs to be done to crack down on dog breeding full stop in this country.
> 
> There are far too many unscrupulous breeders of both so called designer dogs and purebreeds. Unfortunately these people spoil things for the genuine breeders.
> 
> ...


i agree with most of what you've said but unless i've missed something i don't think anyone has said that pure breeds are over priced. pretty much everyone has said that designer crosses are over priced.


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## BecciBoo (Aug 31, 2007)

I don't 'get' the whole breed standard thing and I don't agree with the KC full stop.
A dog is a dog and each is individual, why do they have to be standardised?
Surely this is only what Hitler was trying to do to the Human Race :bash:
So why do we feel the need to do it to our pets?
Especially when it can breed in some horrific defects!

I do think there should be some kind of regulations over breeding dogs (and cats and other animals) and the parents should have to be vet screened first. 
But I don't see the problem with breeding these 'designer crosses' look at the puggle...surely thats breeding out the major problems brachycephalic breeds have.

I have a Labradoodle, I don't know what generation cross or anything about her parents, but she is the most kind natured dog I have ever known...and this is true of all other labradoodles I have come across. 
She does shed her hair (alot) but a lot dont and I can see why that would be an advantage, she doesn't put weight on like a lab...and the labradoodles in practice I have see haven't had any weight issues, which will cut down on a lot of medical problems labs get when they are older.

As for the price of them....they will charge what people will pay, they dont have puppies around for long.



walder said:


> I also disagree with what has been said about pure breeds being over priced. If they have been bred correctly then the breeder should be making little or no profit from a litter.


And what a load of C:censor:
No-one does anything for next to nothing and I know a few good breeders that do everything correctly...and they make plenty!


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## iiisecondcreep (Oct 29, 2007)

Kare said:


> btw, I knew someone with a curly coated retriever at a training course about 3 years back, I swear she was close to homicidal when asked if he was a labradoodle, Im not exaggerating, I really think she could kill over it.


My mum has a Giant Schnauzer, and she is always getting asked if he is a labradoodle, it was worse before he got his first schnauzer hair cut but even now she still gets asked, and I don't think she is any happier about it than the woman in your story!



walder said:


> I think something needs to be done to crack down on dog breeding full stop in this country.


Yup.

Also wonder why people will spend hundreds and hundreds of pounds on a 1st gen mongrel with no guaruntee of how it will turn out when they could give a home to a dog that needs it from a rescue. I would love to think it isn't because of the stupid name... I would also love to think that the people who buy these 'designer' mongrels actually know something about the 2 breeds they are buying the offspring of. However, I suspect this is rarely the case.



BecciBoo said:


> I don't 'get' the whole breed standard thing and I don't agree with the KC full stop.
> A dog is a dog and each is individual, why do they have to be standardised?


Its the same with cats, horses (to a small extent), rodents, reptiles.
I see you have designer morph boas advertised in your sig, its really no different (in terms of appearance, anyway). You could argue a BCI is a BCI, what difference does it make if one is a different colour from another?

Of course in dogs you are also breeding for personality traits, eg herding dogs like collies have a herding instinct, and you will often see collies from working lines that have never been trained to do so displaying herding instincts. And while it is true to say each dog is individual, it is also true to say that each breed has its own traits. Using collies as an example again, there is a reason they are used by farmers to herd sheep almost exclusively.

With regards to deformities, is it any worse than breeding reps to obtain certain colours knowing the neurological problems that could result (eg spider royals and enigma leos)?


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

I was offered a 13 week old dorkie free of charge yesterday.I've no idea what one is apart from the obvious yorkshire terrier part.I wonder if the market is saturated with small cross breeds.Theres always been lots of larger dogs in need of rescue but itsy bitsy ones especially puppies were rare in rescue.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

walder said:


> I think something needs to be done to crack down on dog breeding full stop in this country.
> 
> There are far too many unscrupulous breeders of both so called designer dogs and purebreeds. Unfortunately these people spoil things for the genuine breeders.
> 
> ...


I agree with all this apart from the last sentence. Show standards are ridiculous, dogs should be bred for their original working purpose, not a show tent. If they cant do the job the breed was created for, they should not be bred at all.

As for pet standard dogs, there are certain times when neutering is not in their best interest also. I would always neuter my pets UNLESS there was a medical or behavioural reason not to.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

As for not agreeing with the KC full stop, there are some good reasons why KC registering is important in picking a pup. Mainly the age restrictions they have on matings, and how many a bitch can have and how often. Some breeders who doesn't register their pups have something to hide, eg are breeding too often and too many times from the same (poor quality) bitch. Running her into the ground.

So to disagree with the KC is to say that's ok.


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## BecciBoo (Aug 31, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> As for not agreeing with the KC full stop, there are some good reasons why KC registering is important in picking a pup. Mainly the age restrictions they have on matings, and how many a bitch can have and how often. Some breeders who doesn't register their pups have something to hide, eg are breeding too often and too many times from the same (poor quality) bitch. Running her into the ground.
> 
> So to disagree with the KC is to say that's ok.


No its not because if you read what I said:


> I do think there should be some kind of regulations over breeding dogs (and cats and other animals) and the parents should have to be vet screened first.


I just dont think these regulations should be set by a 'club' that insist an dog looks a certain way.

I think there should be a licence for anyone breeding any animal.

I also think people should have a licence to keep dogs.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

You would want our (pathetic) government to decide who can and cant keep a dog...And yet you think breeding for breed characteristics is like the Nazis? :lol2:


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## BecciBoo (Aug 31, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> You would want our (pathetic) government to decide who can and cant keep a dog:lol2:


Some sort of licence needs to be done....but I didnt say the government did I. 

On friday I held a 5 year old healthy GSD for euthanasia....and why? because the dog was lame and they couldn't afford to treat it! WE offered discounted treatment, we offered to contact the RSPCA and the dogs trust to help but NO :bash:

SO yes I believe that people should have licences to keep and breed animals...maybe then animals wouldnt suffer so much!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

BecciBoo said:


> Some sort of licence needs to be done....but I didnt say the government did I.
> 
> *On friday I held a 5 year old healthy GSD for euthanasia....and why? because the dog was lame and they couldn't afford to treat it! WE offered discounted treatment, we offered to contact the RSPCA and the dogs trust to help but NO* :bash:
> 
> SO yes I believe that people should have licences to keep and breed animals...maybe then animals wouldnt suffer so much!


 
Our veterinary practice refuse to put healthy animals to sleep unless they are danger to humans. They have got many an owner to sign the animal over to them, provided treatment free of charge then either rehomed them or found a rescue place for them.


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## walder (Dec 10, 2008)

BecciBoo said:


> And what a load of C:censor:
> No-one does anything for next to nothing and I know a few good breeders that do everything correctly...and they make plenty!


 
Depends on your definition of a *GOOD* breeder, which in my opinion is one who has, say one litter every two years on average. Not someone who knocks out litter after litter so they don't have to work.

When you condiser the cost of keeping their own dogs and rearing the puppies plus paying for health testing etc there is no way a profit can be made.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Of course she's going to believe that, she paid one of these crappy breeders and is hoping that all are like that to justify giving them a profit.


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## BecciBoo (Aug 31, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> Of course she's going to believe that, she paid one of these crappy breeders and is hoping that all are like that to justify giving them a profit.


Is that aimed at me? 

I didn't pay any crappy breeder...thanks :bash:


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Just to jump back a few pages with regard to hybrid vigour; crossbreeding is done in agriculture for the purpose of producing animals with hybrid vigour, paricularly with cattle and sheep. There is a lot more research involved in the breeding of animals in agriculture so I feel disinclined to dimiss it as a myth. As I understand it and F1 cross will have hybrid vigour but it is lost in the next generation.
Maybe someone with a farming background could elaborate?


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

i do have a bit of a farming background (but am by no means an expert) so i will attempt to clarify the hybrid vigour issues. in the case of cows and sheep it is usualy done in an attempt to create a dual purpose animal, ie (in the case of cows) an animal which provides a high milk yield alongside good quality carcase (sp) weight. the only way i think this can be applied to dogs (and this is the only example i can think of at the mo) is in the case of working dogs, specificly dogs that were used for hunting like the bullgreyhound. this cross was developed (these details may be scetchey also as its only what ive been told) as the good quality greyhound breeding stock was fast becoming more racing orientated as opposed to hunting characteristics. they were crossed with dogs such as staffies to produce a dog with more stamina and muscle mass, so creating a better hunting dog. most of my knowedge on this issue is second (and farmers guardian) hand so i will gladly give way to others with more knowledge on these issues.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

miss_ferret said:


> i do have a bit of a farming background (but am by no means an expert) so i will attempt to clarify the hybrid vigour issues. in the case of cows and sheep it is usualy done in an attempt to create a dual purpose animal, ie (in the case of cows) an animal which provides a high milk yield alongside good quality carcase (sp) weight. the only way i think this can be applied to dogs (and this is the only example i can think of at the mo) is in the case of working dogs, specificly dogs that were used for hunting like the bullgreyhound. this cross was developed (these details may be scetchey also as its only what ive been told) as the good quality greyhound breeding stock was fast becoming more racing orientated as opposed to hunting characteristics. they were crossed with dogs such as staffies to produce a dog with more stamina and muscle mass, so creating a better hunting dog. most of my knowedge on this issue is second (and farmers guardian) hand so i will gladly give way to others with more knowledge on these issues.


If I'm reading it right, they cross breed for specific traits but longevity is kind of an extra bonus. Just skimmed this article Cross-breeding can help increase cow longevity - 04/12/2009 - Farmers Weekly
Which states that


> Crossing animals will also improve cow longevity, said Mr Dodd. "By selecting specific breeds, longevity can be bred into the herd, but cross-breeding will also result in animals living longer through increased hybrid vigour."


I just don't think that it can be dismissed as a mere myth really.


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

LisaLQ said:


> As for not agreeing with the KC full stop, there are some good reasons why KC registering is important in picking a pup. Mainly the age restrictions they have on matings, and how many a bitch can have and how often. Some breeders who doesn't register their pups have something to hide, eg are breeding too often and too many times from the same (poor quality) bitch. Running her into the ground.
> 
> So to disagree with the KC is to say that's ok.


I agree with you totally here. I'm not 100% clued up about the KC in the UK, but I know a good bit about the IKC rules and regulations. When you buy a dog which is IKC registered, you are effectively buying into a contract, agreeing that you will abide by certain rules and standards of ethical breeding. For example, it states that a dog should not be bred from before 1 year of age. Obviously this is to discourage people from breeding bitches as soon as they're physically able to conceive. Another rule states that a bitch should not have more than 7 litters in her lifetime. Again, it's obvious why. Though I doubt anyone who really cared about their bitch's health would allow her bear litters anywhere close to that number. I think something is stated about not producing pups for consecutive seasons also, though I can't remember fully. I'm referring to the IKC regulations here, so don't correct me if it's not exactly the same with the KC. I can't imagine the rules are drastically different between the two though.

One of the reasons why people produce litters from two different purebred, registered dogs is to avoid such regulations. I know one family who own an IKC Yellow Lab bitch and and IKC Golden Retriever dog. Every season, EVERY season, for the past number of years they have produced litters with them. They call them Golden Labs. They sell them for more than what your average purebred and registered pup of either breed would sell for. And people _always_ buy them, so they continue to do it. They get away with it because potential new owners of the pups can't expect them to be registered, being a mixed breed, and because they know that certain people will pay a higher fee for what they believe is a "special" or "unusual" breed.

Not every breeder of mixed breed pups is doing it for the above reasons though. For example, you might find an individual who loves shih-tzus but wishes to mix them with a dog with a longer snout to lessen potential breathing problems. Those kind of motives are relatively pure in that they have a genuine reason for trying to mix breeds.

Sadly, the majority do it because they know a cutsie name will sell and that they can get away with it without having to abide by regulations.


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

Evie said:


> If I'm reading it right, they cross breed for specific traits but longevity is kind of an extra bonus. Just skimmed this article Cross-breeding can help increase cow longevity - 04/12/2009 - Farmers Weekly
> Which states that
> 
> 
> I just don't think that it can be dismissed as a mere myth really.


i agree with you, will look through that article in a sec but im assuming that it talks about productive longevity? i do belive in hybrid vigour in cases when you get the best of both parents (ie the cross breeding eliminates heath issues) and, as pointed out in the early days of this thread, thats how we arrived at the different breeds of dog we have today


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## snakefish (Jan 16, 2009)

I agree, a strange trend - charging the same for a crossbreed as for a pedigee..I saw a puggle (pug X beagle) the other day at work, it was a lovely looking dog, and the bad inbreeding traits of the pug i.e goggle eyes and short snout were bred out as a result of this, which is good! but where does it stop?! what happens when you cross a labradoodle with a puggle for example?!


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

snakefish said:


> what happens when you cross a labradoodle with a puggle for example?!


labradoogle? :lol2: yes it was stupid, il go back to my cave now.... :2thumb:


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## *mogwai* (Feb 18, 2008)

miss_ferret said:


> labradoogle? :lol2: yes it was stupid, il go back to my cave now.... :2thumb:


no more stupid than actually doing it. 
here's one for you, saw some pups advertised, dad is a stafford mum is a GSD x collie. what d'ya call them then?


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

snakefish said:


> *I agree, a strange trend - charging the same for a crossbreed as for a pedigee*..I saw a puggle (pug X beagle) the other day at work, it was a lovely looking dog, and the bad inbreeding traits of the pug i.e goggle eyes and short snout were bred out as a result of this, which is good! but where does it stop?! what happens when you cross a labradoodle with a puggle for example?!


I don't think it's a strange thing to charge the same for a crossbreed as for a pedigree. *If* the health tests have been done it costs the same to rear a mongrel litter as it does to raise a pedigree litter - possibly more because the breeder may have to have health tests associated with both breeds. I reckon part of the attraction is the mystery of what you will get and what the puppies will look like. 
I personally don't think that someone breeding dogs for the show ring or to 'improve' the breed is morally superior to someone who wants to breed a nice litter of crossbred puppies to be much loved pets. Both breeders enjoy the whole idea of having puppies around but pedigree dog breeders often just seem to pretend they are indulging in a selfless act, and are just breeding for the sake of preservation or conservation of a breed. Lets face it, the state of pedigree dogs today is not the fault of breeders of mongrels unless I am missing something major? No offence intended - I don't think breeders of pedigree dogs are evil or immoral - I just don't think they should be taking the moral high ground over breeders who choose to cross.


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

Many breeds of dog are developed from crosses somewhere down the line, for various reasons though lately it does seem to be more for "fashion" reasons than anything else. Why should the development of new breeds stop now just because some people don't like it? If someone wants a cross, takes care of it and provides everything the dog needs who am I to dictate to them that they should be getting a pedigree if that isn't what they want?

While I don't agree with certain breeds/crosses becoming fashionable because of some daft celebrity trend, I don't disagree with someone wanting a particular cross any more than I disagree with someone wanting a particular pedigree dog. It is their choice, not mine, and if they are willing to pay so much for them then that is also their choice. Would anyone here sell something for a tenner if they can get a couple of hundred instead?


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

teshu said:


> no more stupid than actually doing it.
> here's one for you, saw some pups advertised, dad is a stafford mum is a GSD x collie. what d'ya call them then?


is that a hypothetical question or have they actualy come up with a name?


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## kellystewart (May 11, 2010)

Evie said:


> I personally don't think that someone breeding dogs for the show ring or to 'improve' the breed is morally superior to someone who wants to breed a nice litter of crossbred puppies to be much loved pets. Both breeders enjoy the whole idea of having puppies around but pedigree dog breeders often just seem to pretend they are indulging in a selfless act, and are just breeding for the sake of preservation or conservation of a breed. Lets face it, the state of pedigree dogs today is not the fault of breeders of mongrels unless I am missing something major? No offence intended - I don't think breeders of pedigree dogs are evil or immoral - I just don't think they should be taking the moral high ground over breeders who choose to cross.


I think that is a very good point. Bottom line it costs a huge amount of money to raise a litter plus requires weeks of 24/7 work. (But also bear in mind these prices are there to discourage people who want a cute puppy on a whim. If you can't afford the purchase price then you can't afford a dog.Whether the pups are pedigree or crosses is irrelevant. Of course you can raise a litter on bear minimum but this isn't the "proper" way to do it, if there is such a thing. 

With regards to health testing, from what I have researched leaves me in two minds about its use. Well I mean hip scoring specifically.....it really doesn't mean the pups won't develop any issues and in fact the incident rates aren't improving even with the testing regime in place. Eyes, heart, lungs then yeah these should be tested if the breed/s are susceptible.

Way I look at it is if the dogs are going to be loved and give the care they need then that is all that matters.

And ALLLL breeders make money on a litter the only situation they wouldn't is if there was a medical emergency or a very small litter. It's time that people stopped trying to say it's not a money making exercise because to an extent it is (they work hard for it). Although to many it is only a positive extra "bonus" and the profits are put back in to food, toys, treats for the dogs.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

kellystewart said:


> With regards to health testing, from what I have researched leaves me in two minds about its use. Well I mean hip scoring specifically.....it really doesn't mean the pups won't develop any issues and in fact the incident rates aren't improving even with the testing regime in place.


Hip displasia is a polygenic trait which is why it is difficult; several alleles are connected the condition making it difficult to map.


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## kellystewart (May 11, 2010)

Ah I see, I don't fully understand the in's and out's but am very curious about it.
From studying genetics at uni the only way I can see that will help with this is bringing in new genes into the pool?

Perhaps you can comment on that Evie? Sounds like you know a lot more than I do.



Evie said:


> Hip displasia is a polygenic trait which is why it is difficult; several alleles are connected the condition making it difficult to map.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

snakefish;6269257.I saw a puggle (pug X beagle) the other day at work said:


> I don't quite understand that argument.If you disapprove of the traits that make a pug a pug why would you buy one at all.The way to not perpetuate the breeding would be to buy a dog with traits that you see as ethical in the first place not to get one that you object to and breed from it.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

kellystewart said:


> Ah I see, I don't fully understand the in's and out's but am very curious about it.
> From studying genetics at uni the only way I can see that will help with this is bringing in new genes into the pool?
> 
> Perhaps you can comment on that Evie? Sounds like you know a lot more than I do.


Haha no I don't know much about the topic at all which is why I was asking about the whole hybrid vigour thing. I just happen to know that random bit of info about hip displasia: 
They can do gene mapping now where they can identify the specific gene that is linked to a particular condition, and ensure that carriers aren't bred from, or that in the case of recessives are only mated to dogs which are free of the defective gene. Hip displasia is linked to a few different genes so it's not just as simple. Anyone else can input here before I dig myself into a massive hole with my fragile grip on genetics and convince anyone else I have a clue?? :lol2:


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