# Frogs dying/dead :(



## UndergrowthSupplies (Nov 17, 2011)

Hi all,

I know there is nothing that can be done but I am freaking out completely. Last night I found both of my milk frogs completely lethargic. One was lying still and the other was hanging on to a leaf half way in the water at the bottom of the viv, which is totally out of character for these frogs.

I moved the one out of the water and placed it on a plant and it just sprawled out. When i picked it up its legs were all floppy so i knew something wasn't right. I moved the other and he looked bloated and weak.

I put them in a small plastic tank on a heat mat with a plant to sit on so i could keep a close eye on them.

I thought one was dead this morning but on close inspection his throat was still moving slightly. I had to leave for work so couldn't do anything at all. I've come home and they are both barely alive. I think one could possibly be dead now and the other will follow shortly if it hasn't already.

I've had them for three months (bought as a birthday treat for myself) and they've been rubbish at feeding. They were young though, only an inch or so in size. I've been having to remove them from the viv to feed them otherwise they don't eat at all and lose weight. They've been on a varied diet of crickets, meal worms, calci-worms and bean weevils. Supplements are rotated with nutrobal and calcium. I cleaned their viv out the other day when one frog got himself stuck behind the background (exo-terra). The water felt cold-ish yesterday so not sure if the heater was being dodgy - not that the frogs have been in there. The water is always dechlorinated.


I lost my other one a month ago (had it for a year) after it tried to eat some moss. I stripped the tank of the moss the other week in case it happened again.

I am totally gutted  I have gone from three frogs to none in the space of a month. I don't know what I have done wrong


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## snakelover13 (May 5, 2012)

if you can get a picture of the setup that will help i am in no means a expert in amphibians but i could give my input in hope they get better 
Max


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

You haven't necessarily done anything wrong as these things sometimes just happen. Moving them to feed could have done some damage as far as stress. Personally I wouldn't be put off, we've all had frogs die on us and it can be upsetting but don't give up


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## UndergrowthSupplies (Nov 17, 2011)

I am not put off - just really frustrated. I'm not sure the move stressed them too much or surely they wouldn't have eaten and the signs would have come before now? 

Even in the feeding box one would spot the food, jump to get it and miss completely and just try to eat the air. It was like it had no co-ordination at all. Unless the food was under it or within reach it wouldn't/couldn't eat.

I don't have any pictures at the minute but the vivarium it is an exo terra mini-tall (the frogs were only tiny - I have a huge tank to do up which they were going to be moved in to once i had funds  ). There is bogwood, fake plants and real plants in there that they climbed on and lived between the foliage. The bottom had nothing in but the bits of wood and some water with an underwater heater in - there is an air stone in to move the water to help keep humidity up. The water was syphoned out and had a 100% water change at least once a week if not more with dechlorinated water. There is a UV light in the top too and a sheet of perspex just under the mesh lid to keep the humidity levels up or it just dissipates through the mesh and you get rusty water droplets going in to the tank from the rubbish lids on the exo's.

This set up has been working for me for at least a year. My old frog who ate the moss did really well in it - obviously until the moss incident.

If only one had died i wouldn't be wanting to hit my head off a wall like i am now, but because it is two and they have both gone down hill at exactly the same time - my brain can't deal with it! having a stressful enough week as it is 

Edited for spelling mistakes - don't know why i bother wearing glasses when i still can't bloody read


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## mrkeda (Nov 6, 2012)

Maybe get a post mortem done on one if not both if you can afford it.


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## UndergrowthSupplies (Nov 17, 2011)

I think they are way too small for that tbh


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## mrkeda (Nov 6, 2012)

Not to see if they've got a parasite or something like that I wouldn't of thought


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## Drayvan (Jul 7, 2010)

Is it possible the real plants had any chemicals in their soil or on their leaves before you planted them?


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## UndergrowthSupplies (Nov 17, 2011)

No idea  it is a possibility i suppose
They weren't ever replanted by myself, they were sat in their original pots still. The frogs rarely went on the real plants though, not saying they never did, they spent more time on the artificial ones and the wood or the sides of the tank

There are too many variables - argh!!

I've turned the viv off tonight. Its going to be frog-less for quite some time


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## Drayvan (Jul 7, 2010)

Hmm if they were from a garden center or supermarket theres quite a good chance that they would of had some chemical or other on them  this probably would of worked its way into the rest of the soil and and water that evaporated.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Drayvan said:


> Hmm if they were from a garden center or supermarket theres quite a good chance that they would of had some chemical or other on them  this probably would of worked its way into the rest of the soil and and water that evaporated.


I have to say, though, mate, even though I, like everybody else, advocates against just bunging plants straight in, I _have_ cut corners on occasion, and have never seen anything like this. The OP mentions feeding problems from the start; I wonder if the frogs weren't entirely healthy before they even acquired them? As Ronny says, sometimes these things happen and we can't pin down the actual cause. It's always upsetting, though.


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## Drayvan (Jul 7, 2010)

Ron Magpie said:


> I have to say, though, mate, even though I, like everybody else, advocates against just bunging plants straight in, I _have_ cut corners on occasion, and have never seen anything like this. The OP mentions feeding problems from the start; I wonder if the frogs weren't entirely healthy before they even acquired them? As Ronny says, sometimes these things happen and we can't pin down the actual cause. It's always upsetting, though.


That's a very good point, I'm not always one for bleaching and baking the living daylights out of everything myself either :2thumb: the symptoms reminded me of someone who lost their dartfrogs this way and was pinpointed as chemicals in the plants...this however completely made the feeding issues slip my mind!

Completely agree with you and Ronny though, it sucks when it happens, to me at least not knowing why makes it all the more raw when I lose one.


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## Galactic Mushroom (Mar 8, 2013)

Mate mine went the same way, had 2 tiny babies from a garden centre and they just sat In the soil for a week then died I tried everything but nothing helped I've actually been put off milks now but I did learn a lesson and that's when you buy an animal get the biggest fattest one that way you atleast know it's healthy and eating.


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## terryTHEfrog (Oct 21, 2012)

I too would go with the new additions havin probs, I bet they came from a pet shop too, NOT all but most have no idea on how to keep reptiles or even fish for that matter ! However chin up and I would advise buying from a private breeder if possible as more love and attention is generally given.

Strip the viv throw most of it and clean what you can and start over. Its hard not knowing why it all went wrong sometimes.


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## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

Something similar to this happened with one person's fish. It made the fish have small twitches and become uncoordinated. They were feeding fine then just stopped. 

He found the reason why, it was airfrehsener. When it gets into the water it dissolves, this must get into the animals system by them drinking it/absourbing it then it must do the damage there.

I am not saying it is an air freshener, just reminds me of what happened. Practically the same but with fish.

It can be frustrating but these things just happen.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Patto96 said:


> Something similar to this happened with one person's fish. It made the fish have small twitches and become uncoordinated. They were feeding fine then just stopped.
> 
> He found the reason why, it was airfrehsener. When it gets into the water it dissolves, this must get into the animals system by them drinking it/absourbing it then it must do the damage there.
> 
> ...


Actually, a friend pinned his darts death down to air fresheners as well. he doesn't know for certain, but feels that is the most likely cause, in that case.


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Is your tank in your room? could it be any sort of aerosol then by the sound of it, maybe even deodorant?


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## UndergrowthSupplies (Nov 17, 2011)

Thanks for the replies.

We chose the two newest ones (the ones who died yesterday) on their size because they had to go in with the one that i currently had (moss frog). I sat in the shop and observed them for atleast an hour before buying. They were all bouncing around fine and were high up in the viv. They were from a pet shop but a specialist reptile/exotics shop who have been selling these sorts of animals for years and even had their own milks breeding at one point. He said they were from Hamm but the shop had had them in for months but they were never good eaters from the start and had to be hand fed from day one. 

The viv is in the dining room. The door is kept closed most of the time so the dog can't go in and knock everything over. We don't spray aerosols downstairs due to the animals we have in the house, especially anywhere near the dining room due to the frogs and fish tank we have. 

It's just so bizarre for them to go at the same time. The real plants are a bromeliad i bought at the morpeth show and an orchid i've had since before the new frogs and that was cleaned before going in - still considering it as a potential suspect though. 

I tried finding a private breeder a while ago but courier is expensive and there was rarely any available. I would probably go for the milk's again though.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Could they have overheated for whatever reason?


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## mrkeda (Nov 6, 2012)

Sorry for the loss
You kept these in with your other frog? I wouldn't of thought it was a coincidence or something unexplainable that they all died.


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## UndergrowthSupplies (Nov 17, 2011)

No idea Colinm - i did think the heater may have malfunctioned.

Mykeda - i think there might be a bit of a misunderstanding? All three frogs were Amazon Milk Frogs hence why they lived together. 
The two newbies were kept seperate in a plastic vivarium for a few weeks before being introduced to the viv. The first one died from trying to eat moss. He must have seen it moving in the water and thought it was food. He choked and drowned. The other two died yesterday for unknown reasons. There was atleast a month between the first and then yesterdays deaths. I didn't question the first death at all, it was a pure accident


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Feacals are non invasive and cheeper than a post mortem,they might just give you a clue as to whether the frogs had a high parasite burden.Constantly moving them to feed might just be enough of a stressor to the frogs to allow a parasite to get out of hand.Look having these done might help,it might not,but it might give you at least an answer as too why you've had problems. Knowing the frogs were fussy feeders worries me. I'm also starting to wonder whether there is an optimum time ie an age that they need to reach,before they are resilient enough to move.I don't keep milks,but heard of a batch of little ones sold recently,out of 18 2 are still alive,yeah SHOCKING!! For me a young frog that isn't feeding well should not be sold to a new owner,period

Mate, I hate seeing these threads I hate the sadness for a keeper,I hate the fact that in almost each and every case we will never know the why's and the cause. 
I'm also sorry for your loss and would urge you to not give up as Ronny has said. 
Stu


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## mrkeda (Nov 6, 2012)

Oh yeah, my bad. I did read that before about your first frog eating moss.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

mrkeda said:


> Oh yeah, my bad. I did read that before about your first frog eating moss.


Hard to keep track, sometimes.


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## Galactic Mushroom (Mar 8, 2013)

I was told by my vets that any sort of aerosol can harm phibs and sometimes you dont even think and just do it my mum sprayed the house with flea spray lucky she didn't get to my room but got to be really carefull


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## ChrisJ83 (Apr 15, 2013)

You say they had problems striking at their prey, this sounds like a VitA deficiency, I'm not sure what products your using but try the repashy supliments the calcium+ contains everything you need IIRC. 

Wouldn't trust anything else to be totally honest also if it helps I half the suppliments and put half in the fridge in an airtight foodtub and change to using that after 3 months of having the supliments out of the fridge.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

ChrisJ83 said:


> You say they had problems striking at their prey, this sounds like a VitA deficiency, I'm not sure what products your using but try the repashy supliments the calcium+ contains everything you need IIRC.
> 
> Wouldn't trust anything else to be totally honest also if it helps I half the suppliments and put half in the fridge in an airtight foodtub and change to using that after 3 months of having the supliments out of the fridge.


Good advice. I use Nutrobal currently, but I keep hearing good stuff about Repashy.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> Good advice. I use Nutrobal currently, but I keep hearing good stuff about Repashy.


Ron,I think you should try some repashy,just the way it sticks will impress for starters. Because vit A seems so difficent in captive anurans repashy actually make a stand alone product,for folks wanting to enhance this,say in newly aquired stock for example. 

It is (vit A) also linked to poor embryo devopment,but this is one product that should be used with caution,as it is possible to OD. Ron I really think dosing with this vit A product helped with our slight problem with sls in mysties,well I started using it and with abit of time(mysties remember 5 1/2 months in the water:whistling2 it was eradicated,I changed nowt else. So we now use it once every couple of weeks for everything alongside the staple Ca plus which we dust each Ff feed with. It is a cracking range of products,all the work Allen put in has certainly given a lift to our hobby.Give it a try mate,but buy the pouch ,not the jar

Good post Chris:2thumb:

Stu


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## planetse (May 1, 2013)

If I may just add regarding air fresheners etc. After keeping Marine setups for years now it’s a known fact you never use ANY aerosol based product (air freshener, deodorant, polish etc., etc.) in the same room as the tank, that go’s the same for plug in air fresheners. 

The same goes for any animal kept that may be affected by the numerous chemicals contained in everyday house hold products. Before touching anything that has to go into the tank/viv always wash your hands, rinse well then dry with a paper towel.


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