# Whatever next................?



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Again, l hear of both Monkeyworld and the RSPCA raising a new call for the end to private primate keeping - to begin with - ?

'To Begin with' ........ an interesting comment for them to make, especially from the likes of Monkeyworld?

But this can make some sense, if they were to be successful in the prohibiting of primates, then what would be next?

Specialised exotic cats? Specialised exotic animals? Then perhaps the weaker segments of the reptile trade? Then the final curtain for the hard corists.

For some obscure reason - our learned fellows - the Tortoise keepers seemingly believe that they would be exempt from any ban, for the emphasis would be on the likes of snakes and lizards alone?

Tort guys, why would you think such a thing - 'one for all and all for one' would be the credo held by the opposition in the end to exotic keeping!

Back to primates and the banning of private ownership, l do feel that if this was going to happen, it could occur much quicker than primate keepers may think possible, unless of course we experience a much needed new governmental election success, l do feel with the likes of the Benns in power and aghast with exotic keeping as they are, then the count down to exotic species extinction may be atop of us now.

Unless we do get a new government in seat, l think our days are now seriously numbered. 

If the banning of primates were to be successful this could be in as little as two years! And if we do see a banning before a new government take seat, they could not overturn a ban. How many bans could be in place before we see a new government?

Yes, oh yes indeedy, here is that magical figure 2010 again, ring any bells readers?

I acknowledge that there are readers amongst this forum that will in fact rebuke what l write and so be it - DO SO! But the facts are starting to come a tumbling in now, these facts are simple - they - yes they the opposition want to see the prohibition, restriction and collapse of this industry and all its exotic followers!

The call for codes of practice should be stronger, and l still can not hear anything, Ghostbusters anthem received more of a chorus line. The voices of the keepers should be louder, but sadly still you are a quiet bunch indeed.

I have said this before, primates may not mean much to non primate keepers, but if they do go, it will be a guarantee that the rest of y'all will follow before long!

On a side note, how effective really are the likes of petitions to the 'fantastic government' in power at present?

Rory Matier
PKL- Home to PKA

Primates - Countdown 22 months?


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## gtm (Jan 23, 2008)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Again, l hear of both Monkeyworld and the RSPCA raising a new call for the end to private primate keeping - to begin with - ?
> 
> 'To Begin with' ........ an interesting comment for them to make, especially from the likes of Monkeyworld?
> 
> ...


You are correct us tortoise keepers (for my sins I am one) do live in our own little world. We spend far to much time bickering with each other to even contemplate that someone might want to take our beloved tortoises away from us. We'll be as much help as a chocolate hot water bottle in the upcoming battle - sorry in advance:blush::blush::blush::blush::blush::blush::blush:


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

I would not be that bothered GTM, at the very least you have placed a response in.

Where as many keepers now apparently do not have the bottle to speak up about any of the politics that are surrounding their passion.

This was not a stab at the tortoise owners more of a wake up call to all reptile keepers.

Facts are out there for the counting and the reading.

BUT as usual, people have lost their voices, and when they will be shouting will when it will possibly be way too late.

Primates do not bother those who do not keep them, but if this was the hard push on reptiles, with primate keepers being at the bottom of the rating l think we would be seeing more responses.

R


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

it is a worrying thought althoughI am not a primate keeper I do have an interest in all aspects of exotic keeping, and one ban could very easily lead to another, but I still wonder if an outright ban is likely maybe thats naive, I can see its possible it could happen but I could see a much stricter licensing scheme coming in instead of a total ban, I dont mind a licensing scheme for keeping animals, much like your codes of practise but legally binding, I wouldnt mind proving I can look after the animals I keep, I already have to, to some extent.


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## gtm (Jan 23, 2008)

They'll pick off primates 1st and then the DWA guys and the rest of us after that. 

By all means give us Tortoise Keepers a 'stabbing' - we more than any exotic people deserve it!!!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

im not so sure about DWA because its relatively strictly licensed anyway, and its not like it causes a major problem, I hope they dont ban it anyway


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

gtm said:


> They'll pick off primates 1st and then the DWA guys and the rest of us after that.
> 
> By all means give us Tortoise Keepers a 'stabbing' - we more than any exotic people deserve it!!!


You are a smart and wise cookie GTM , you have got it, it will be specialist animals first and then the rest. And no, l do not think the torty keepers need a good stabbing anymore than the rest of the exotic world do.

R


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## kaimarion (Dec 31, 2007)

Would really suck if they did bring in a ban but its unlikely.

But what the hell am I supposed to do???
Sorry about the question ^^^ as I'am half asleep.


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## miffikins (Feb 25, 2007)

Do you think they would propose some form of licensing scheme before an outright ban?? 

: victory:


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

miffikins said:


> Do you think they would propose some form of licensing scheme before an outright ban??
> 
> : victory:


As they could see a way of making more free money from us by doing that, I suspect it would be a strong contender for how they would proceed.


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## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

miffikins said:


> Do you think they would propose some form of licensing scheme before an outright ban??
> 
> : victory:


License = paperwork, time, energy and money all of which the government seem keen to to bring in for certain things, especially where they can see a profit. Perhaps this may become the way akin to the old dog license.

On the other hand the government could take alot of the energy and time out of it and just put a flat out ban. Do you really think the government see exotics keepers as a worthwhile group to appease? 

I can see a primate ban coming in, the government see it as an easy target, a ban could possibly please more people than it annoys = government wins.

Only time will tell i suppose regarding this. I do agree with Rory that if we wait for bans to start then it will be too late, the government will have started the ball rolling and it'll be hard to stop.

In terms what we can do, im no politics student but raising awareness of ethical and respectful exotics keeping amongst us all, private keepers, breeders, shop owners etc is surely worth while. If we all know it then we can pass the knowledge onto new people, thus hopefully reducing cases of mistreatment. The less 'ammo' the anti's have the better.


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## pam b (Mar 3, 2005)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Where as many keepers now apparently do not have the bottle to speak up about any of the politics that are surrounding their passion.
> 
> 
> 
> R


Not true Rory, its just more of a fact that its done in private and not on a public forum where anyone can read your thoughts, and any old Tom Dick or Harry can then twist or use your thoughts against you.

Loose tongues cost lives and all that!!!!

Take that as you will but i think you'll find its a sad fact of life, no matter how you wish it wasnt.


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## gtm (Jan 23, 2008)

The libertarian in me recoils at the idea of licencing. Remember how pointless dog licencing was? I remember dutifully trotting down to the post office with my mum to collect the licence for the family Peke. However, at least a licencing scheme would so to speak 'stop the rot' and would be preferable to an outright ban. I imagine that it would be administered by local government (who already do the DWA licences) rather than from whitehall and may event have the advantage of keeping some of the prunes who give the rest of us a bad name out of exotic animal keeping.


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## candoia aspera (Mar 5, 2007)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Where as many keepers now apparently do not have the bottle to speak up about any of the politics that are surrounding their passion.
> 
> R


i always tend to find that fear mongering is based on a domino effect. if we do this then this and this and this will happen until it stops you doing what you want. 

whenever i venture in here i'm always left thinking the same thing - what's in it for you? that's why i never really post here or activley partisipate in these sorts of threads.

i personally can't see reptile keeping being band, if they wanted to they could do it in the blink of an eye- there's enough people with the misconseption that all snakes are venomus to tip the scales mightly in the other direction. so what do you gain by this preying on our most basic primeval fear?


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Preying on peoples' fears?

Not at all.

Whats in it for me?

Simple, like l am guessing you are, l am a keeper also. And have no wish to just not say anything and give up.

Pam, forums, oh yes, many will say they are the end of the line the bottom of the bucket. In effect, 5% of the keeping community all told, dwell within these areas.

But many viewers on forums do not necessarily write here, but they do watch, they do read and if they leave a post or a thread with just 1% more information than they did before reading it, then that too is a good thing.

Do not betray the forums, they are at the end of the day, still part of the 'people' as they have been throughout history.

Will a ban go ahead?

Possibly it could, very much so.

Primates, why should the keepers whom do not keep the species care?

Same application to the EPS l seem to recall....

But the sad fact is readers, that IF they do succeed in banning primates, THEY WILL look around at what else is possible.

Will they licence primates?

Why on earth do that......?

They have just pulled primates off the dwal, why place them under a licence now, when the easiest part would have been to place them ALL on there in the first place?

No, l think that if anything, it will not be a mass cull, but a stop in the trading of them, then with no fresh legal primates entering the ownership of private keepers, then it will simply be a case of those that are regulated keepers, their primates will die off and out.

A full ban scarily enough for primates could be in place within a three year span.

Not scare mongering, not fear mongering, just simple facts.

R


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## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

When animals were banned back in the sixties - everyone released them. If things are banned again - then the wildlife in the UK is gonna get messed up! More big cats - some species of snakes will survive like corns and other N. American stuff surely. Have the powers that be really thought this through? (Please don't moan at me if I'm wrong! - This is just an opinion!)


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Hi, 

I am not going to moan at you.

You are right..........animals will be released, hell there is already a wild population of corn snakes living and thriving in Essex!

Last year alone, we were receiving calls from various keepers who were already stating that they had known keepers who had released snakes and other reptiles in to the wild, due to the oncoming DWAL movements.

Prairie Dogs in Southampton beach dunes, and wallabies on the moors, wild boars in hampshire............ so what is there to be moaned at. That is already a fact, its happening.

When DWAL was introduced in the mid 70's animals were released then.

Have the powers throught this through...? Of course not, again l draw reference to the EPS, oh well yes, there was a wise strategy!

R


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## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

Rory- just wondering - is there anything that us knowledgeable people can be doing to raise the profile of exotics keeping (please note i didn't say "The Hobby"!), to try and educate the antis?


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## t-bo (Jan 26, 2005)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am not going to moan at you.
> 
> ...


Southampton doesnt have a beach, well.. maybe a stoney shoreline  Pretty sure there are no Prairie dogs here?


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Really, lol?

About four years ago, l was informed of prairie dogs in the dunes in Southampton, by a fairly knowledgeable keeper, who was doing his nut because of a recent degu release in another area in that area.

He made mention to the fact that there was "no reason for the importing of prairie dogs from Europe due to the population in S/Hampton!!!" he was quite abrupt on the phone, lol.

Mmm, oh well, l don't know then, perhaps someone caught them all?

R


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

mmmm Southampton's you say wonder how far i am away :lol2: the problem now is the weather is getting more and more mild so when our cold winters used to kill lots of releases of now don't it doesn't.

as for speaking up i think a lot of keepers just cant be bothered it was like Fox hunting everyone was in a uproar but it was only a a small % that actually had the balls to do something!!!


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## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

Mujician said:


> Rory- just wondering - is there anything that us knowledgeable people can be doing to raise the profile of exotics keeping (please note i didn't say "The Hobby"!), to try and educate the antis?


Why does Rory ignore this question?! I want to be pro-active in making people realsie its the same as keeping any animal - just want to know the right way of going about doing it!!!!!!!


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Hi, 

_"Rory- just wondering - is there anything that us knowledgeable people can be doing to raise the profile of exotics keeping (please note i didn't say "The Hobby"!), to try and educate the antis?"_

_"Why does Rory ignore this question?! I want to be pro-active in making people realsie its the same as keeping any animal - just want to know the right way of going about doing it!"_

I am not ignoring the question, l was contemplating the best answer, but also to see how many others would request an answer from me, and as you see, you raised it, and you alone had to resurface it.

The answer is simple, and that is not derogative in its response.

Keepers have to be more aware and open to the changes that are happening around us. 

Okay, raising the prolifics of the hobby.

The call for the codes of practice would be one way. Instead of shying away from these codes, demand them, for reptiles, which trust me everyone is backing away from, demand their creation. They are the protection for the future of your passions.

The antis do not want educating, they just want to see an end to animals being kept in captivity.

TSKA are currently working on codes of practice for primates and specialist cats, and we are creating working groups for this. And after this we will look at other working groups for mammals, but l do not know reptiles so l can not concentrate there.

Another way, display your views about the market here in this forum, like you are expressing your concern to me now. Show others how you feel. Raise awareness threads. It is not hard. You may be condemned for a while, or as others have been sent to Coventry if you are a business, and your buyers do not like your political views.

This is the year of husbandry, of responsible ownership, of displaying to the opposition that keepers are not just pet owners who care little for their charges, but are professional and specialist keepers whom are aware of the responsibility of the animals within their captive collections. Whom are aware of the full implications of keeping exotic species in a politically charged market.

I will pm you also.

Regards Rory


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## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

PMd you back! Sorry if I caused any offence! Ben


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Mujician said:


> PMd you back! Sorry if I caused any offence! Ben


 
Hi Ben, 

You should edit your post if you can, you caused me no offence what so ever.

Have responded to your pm also.

Regards Rory


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## matt1977 (Jul 1, 2007)

on a lighter note if primates are banned will i have to get rid of my kids?:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## ade (Mar 7, 2007)

If keeping reptiles is banned, how are they going to stop it. I own 15 various exotics and there are people on here that have over 100. How will they know i keep them, and how will they make me get rid of them, if they can!!! Pitbull dogs are supposed to banned arn't they?????


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

Reptile keeping will never totally disappear, even with a total ban BUT it will be a hell of a lot harder!

No local shop to pop down for supplies, no specific reptile equipment to replace thermostats, heaters and lights etc.

Reptile keeping is already banned in some European countries (Scandinavian countries), Boids (ball pythons and boas) are banned in Portugual.

You require a license for ANY reptile in Belgian (and two Flemish guys told me at Hamm that Royal Pythons are now banned totally...although I have not had this confirmed elsewhere)..

It is already happening around us, Germany have strict codes on what size cages you can keep your reptiles in and they are also now bringing in restrictions on venomous.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Scott W said:


> Reptile keeping is already banned in some European countries (Scandinavian countries), Boids (ball pythons and boas) are banned in Portugual.
> 
> You require a license for ANY reptile in Belgian (and two Flemish guys told me at Hamm that Royal Pythons are now banned totally...although I have not had this confirmed elsewhere)..


So why are they coming down so hard on Royals Scott ? Because of the CF imports ?


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