# rspca



## PRS (Dec 31, 2007)

they went onto my property without my permission and left me a letter to call them back I did that and they said I*ve been reported selling lots of snakes from home, when ive not even had 1 snake as a pet yet let alone be selling snakes lol. Can they do this and they wanna come inspect my house can they do this if I did say no?


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

The RSPCA have no right to enter your property without your consent, this is called trespass and is unlawful. It is also no concern of there is you sell snakes or not.


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## PRS (Dec 31, 2007)

Ok thanks.


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

As chris said, its nothing to do with them if you sell snakes ore not.

To be able to legally gain access to your property, they either need you to invite them or to attend with the police and a warrant, which they will should only get with reasonable grounds to belive there are animals in your care that are suffering.

If its been reported that you sell snakes, thats not grounds to issue the warrant, but tbh, they will find grounds if they want to !


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## PRS (Dec 31, 2007)

k thx so say a gate was unlocked coz i was expecting sum1 they cud us it to gain entry legaly ?


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

The Gecko King :) said:


> k thx so say a gate was unlocked coz i was expecting sum1 they cud us it to gain entry legaly ?


Well they would only get into the garden? - they can't go into your house unless you let them.

- i would just let them in and see for themselves! I'd take pleasure in showing them up :whistling2:


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

When you say went on to your property ... do you mean just posted a letter through your front door ?

I would just ring them, tell them you do not have any snakes, all your animals are well cared for and as such there is no reason for them to come round.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

I would suggest that all that has happened is that the RSPCA have received a complaint, and, as a statutory body with investigative powers, the inspector has gone to the house, as he/she is LEGALLY required to do to investigate whether or not there is any substance to the complaint. As they got no answer, a calling card has been left.
Having worked with the RSPCA for many years in a professional capacity, I can assure you that they will not act illegally and are fully aware of their powers and the limit to them. They will gain nothing from acting illegally. 
They have a duty to investigate all complaints.
At the end of the day, if you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to worry about.
In terms of from selling home, this would not be an RSPCA matter, but they do still have to look into it!
When it comes to herps, the RSPCA will almost always use an expert as they have little expertise themselves.


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

ian14 said:


> I would suggest that all that has happened is that the RSPCA have received a complaint, and, as a statutory body with investigative powers, the inspector has gone to the house, as he/she is LEGALLY required to do to investigate whether or not there is any substance to the complaint. As they got no answer, a calling card has been left.
> Having worked with the RSPCA for many years in a professional capacity, I can assure you that they will not act illegally and are fully aware of their powers and the limit to them. They will gain nothing from acting illegally.
> They have a duty to investigate all complaints.
> At the end of the day, if you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to worry about.
> ...


HAHAHAHAHA!!!! as if they have any experts!


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## xmashx (Sep 14, 2007)

sorry ian14 ur not gonna get alot of people on the rspca's side on here because, from what ive heard alot. they act on basically anything to do with reptiles. and have already stated they dont believe reptiles make good pets. 
one question why would they even go to ur house if they thought you were selling snakes. if it was becuase of cruelty then it would make more sense but just because ur selling them seems a bit stupid. 
what i would do is let them visit and let them see what divs they are. then ask them why they are even investigating ur house just down to you selling snakes. 
: victory:
xsachax


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## bribrian (Jan 12, 2006)

ian14 said:


> I can assure you that they will not act illegally


I'll bet a few people could claim otherwise........:whistling2:


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

ian14 said:


> I would suggest that all that has happened is that the RSPCA have received a complaint, and, as a statutory body with investigative powers, the inspector has gone to the house, as he/she is LEGALLY required to do to investigate whether or not there is any substance to the complaint. As they got no answer, a calling card has been left.
> Having worked with the RSPCA for many years in a professional capacity, I can assure you that they will not act illegally and are fully aware of their powers and the limit to them. They will gain nothing from acting illegally.
> They have a duty to investigate all complaints.
> At the end of the day, if you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to worry about.
> ...


 
*VERY IMPORTANT*

The RSPCA is *NOT* a statutory body, and it has *NO* powers, they also have *NO* legal obligation to investigate anything, they are NOT a law enforcement agency. The RSPCA is a charitable organisation, that allegedly promotes animal welfare. As a charity the RSPCA have no more powers or rights than any other member of the general public.


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

Chris Newman said:


> *VERY IMPORTANT*
> 
> The RSPCA is *NOT* a statutory body, and it has *NO* powers, they also have *NO* legal obligation to investigate anything, they are NOT a law enforcement agency. The RSPCA is a charitable organisation, that allegedly promotes animal welfare. As a charity the RSPCA have no more powers or rights than any other member of the general public.


Bravo CHRIS!


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

Phone them, tell them you don't keep snakes and not to waste your time.

Also add that as it's not illegal to keep or sell snakes then they can go jump even if it were true.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Chris Newman said:


> *VERY IMPORTANT*
> 
> The RSPCA is *NOT* a statutory body, and it has *NO* powers, they also have *NO* legal obligation to investigate anything, they are NOT a law enforcement agency. The RSPCA is a charitable organisation, that allegedly promotes animal welfare. As a charity the RSPCA have no more powers or rights than any other member of the general public.


so true :no1:


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

The RSPCA have the power to interview under caution and to bring about prosecutions. As a serving police officer I work with them on a regular basis. In terms of experts, certainly in the Thames Valley area, they use Bruce McLean, a reptile vet who, as far as I am aware from comments on this forum is well respected. For those of you who don't think they have access to experts, I'm sorry but they do! When it comes to RSPCA need an expert witness, which is a person deemed by the Court to be an expert in their field.
I agree, it does seem odd that the RSPCA have gone if it is just a concern about selling animals.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

ian14 said:


> The RSPCA have the power to interview under caution and to bring about prosecutions. As a serving police officer I work with them on a regular basis. In terms of experts, certainly in the Thames Valley area, they use Bruce McLean, a reptile vet who, as far as I am aware from comments on this forum is well respected. For those of you who don't think they have access to experts, I'm sorry but they do! When it comes to RSPCA need an expert witness, which is a person deemed by the Court to be an expert in their field.
> I agree, it does seem odd that the RSPCA have gone if it is just a concern about selling animals.


The RSPCA bring private prosecutions, they are not public prosecutors. ANY person can use the caution from PACE. The RSPCA use it as a means of intimidation and to imply they have the power of arrest, which is untrue, they have no more powers of arrest than any other member of the public. I always find it disturbing that serving police officer believe the RSPCA are in some way an enforcement agency, they are not.


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## cannotstopbuyingballs (Dec 29, 2007)

Chris Newman said:


> *VERY IMPORTANT*
> 
> The RSPCA is *NOT* a statutory body, and it has *NO* powers, they also have *NO* legal obligation to investigate anything, they are NOT a law enforcement agency. The RSPCA is a charitable organisation, that allegedly promotes animal welfare. As a charity the RSPCA have no more powers or rights than any other member of the general public.


 
absolutely, The RSPCA are a charity and have no powers of arrest and seizure with out a police officer and a warrant. I would of not called them back.

It is a shame that they have become so political. Every civilised country needs an animal welfare organisation but they are so biased they have lost all respect


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## xmashx (Sep 14, 2007)

yeh but we dont just have the rspca isnt the pdsa a charity aswell or have i mixed things up ?
xsachax


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## koganinja (Jun 11, 2006)

Chris Newman said:


> The RSPCA bring private prosecutions, they are not public prosecutors. ANY person can use the caution from PACE. The RSPCA use it as a means of intimidation and to imply they have the power of arrest, which is untrue, they have no more powers of arrest than any other member of the public. I always find it disturbing that serving police officer believe the RSPCA are in some way an enforcement agency, they are not.


well said chris : victory:


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## C_Strike (Feb 20, 2007)

clive1973 said:


> absolutely, The RSPCA are a charity and have no powers of arrest and seizure with out a police officer and a warrant. I would of not called them back.
> 
> It is a shame that they have become so political. Every civilised country needs an animal welfare organisation but they are so biased they have lost all respect


hearhear, total agreement.

Sorry Ian, as the son of a very well respected police officer (Chase the surname if you need) iv got to say iv got as much confidence in the police as the RSPCA, and thats less than sod all...
If you dont mind me asking, what made you join the RSPCA? what was your experience with animals before? what was your Knowledge previous to joining?

I ask because i want to understand your defense rather than just become annoyed.
I used to work in liason with an RSPCA member, and also in conjunction with the police at times. The police i dealt with wer more clued up about the animals than the RSPCA. I no longer deal with the RSPCA due to much i have read, and hear about it as a political 'F:censor: :up:'... if you get me


sorry to post again, i think its important and relevant though (Posted in the other RSPCA thread open atm
THE RSPCA UNMASKED
)
Whether true or not this to me is absolutely scares the crap outta me. Even if it isnt true, there must be enough reason for people to begrude the 'charity' enough to make such accusations. If theyr were doing good, and benefiting those in the hobbies then people wouldnt hold such opinions. and such 'roumours' would be dismissed very early.
Why does a charity need a charity to oversee it. RSPCA has provoked new charities to be formed to protect the animals from the RSPCA.. kinda sounds a bit wrong doesnt it?

Also, maybe you might be able to enlighten meas to the need for rankings amnongst a registered charity? why the authoritarian uniforms? does a charity need to look like the police? or even the SS? seems whoely wrong


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## PRS (Dec 31, 2007)

I own alot of land and they went through a gate that was open so sum1 could come in and drove into my property and left a note next to my door.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I think they are allowed to gain entry to be able to post a letter through your door same as the postman - if you are home and ask them to leave your property, they have to or they are trespassing and you can (and bloody should!) ring the police to have them removed.

The RSPCA are just laughable as far as I am concerned. They act like a law enforcement agency, they dress like them - half of them are more qualified to be stripograms which bear the same clothing and detachment!


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## htf666 (Jun 23, 2007)

ian14 said:


> I would suggest that all that has happened is that the RSPCA have received a complaint, and, as a statutory body with investigative powers, the inspector has gone to the house, as he/she is LEGALLY required to do to investigate whether or not there is any substance to the complaint. As they got no answer, a calling card has been left.
> Having worked with the RSPCA for many years in a professional capacity, I can assure you that they will not act illegally and are fully aware of their powers and the limit to them. They will gain nothing from acting illegally.
> They have a duty to investigate all complaints.
> At the end of the day, if you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to worry about.
> ...


If as you say the rspca are legally required to investigate any report then you as a police officer should be arresting them when they fail to respond to a call.Which is very common especially if Rolf is not about with his camera crew.(Cue tears.)


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

If they are on your property and you ask them to leave and they refuse you are entitled to use reasonable force to remove them.


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## slither61 (Nov 18, 2006)

purejurrasic said:


> As chris said, its nothing to do with them if you sell snakes ore not.
> 
> To be able to legally gain access to your property, they either need you to invite them or to attend with the police and a warrant, which they will should only get with reasonable grounds to belive there are animals in your care that are suffering.
> 
> If its been reported that you sell snakes, thats not grounds to issue the warrant, but tbh, they will find grounds if they want to !


Hi all,

They are only allowed in on the warrent if they are named on it, if not they are not allowed and are trespassing.

Judges do not write out warrents for fun, they have to put their case to him with facts or they will not get a warrent no matter who they are.

slither61 :snake::snake::snake::snake:


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## slither61 (Nov 18, 2006)

ian14 said:


> The RSPCA have the power to interview under caution and to bring about prosecutions. As a serving police officer I work with them on a regular basis. In terms of experts, certainly in the Thames Valley area, they use Bruce McLean, a reptile vet who, as far as I am aware from comments on this forum is well respected. For those of you who don't think they have access to experts, I'm sorry but they do! When it comes to RSPCA need an expert witness, which is a person deemed by the Court to be an expert in their field.
> I agree, it does seem odd that the RSPCA have gone if it is just a concern about selling animals.


Hi all,

The RSPCA can only get into your house if you invite them in or get a warrent off a Judge then only the people named on the warrent are allowed in.

They have no powers under the law.

You cannot as a police officer go into someones house without a warrent or they let you in you have to give the judge a good reason why you want a warrent based on facts and evidence.

The problem with the RSPCA they try to act as experts when they have not being trained in a particular field.

They try to scare people by wearing uniforms like the police and have a similar rank structure.

Ian to you I put this question joe public gives RSPCA £1 becaus he wants it to be used to protect animals and their welfare in kennels.

But he then finds out they have millions in the bank which are not been spent like it is supposed to be on animals.

Should he not feel they have got money off him under false pretenses???.


slither61 :snake::snake::snake::snake:


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

WHY DO YOU ALL HAVE PROBLEM WITH AN ORGANISATION SETUP TO PROTECT ANIMALS????????????????
Chris Newman, I remember only too well the bitching that went on in your magazine , Reptilian, it worries me that the people we should be working WITH, not AGAINST, are yet again the subject of a slagging off.
hf666, grow up. The RSPCA do follow up calls. Stop being infantile with comments re film crews. Pathetic.
C_strike, I have never joined the RSPCA. Want to know my previos knowledge?? 20 years as a herpkeepr, worked at London Zoo, Cotswold Wildlife Park, Jersey Wildlife Preservation Trust, offered a 6 month placement at JWPT, a job as assistant curator of herps at Cotswolds, oh and a BSc Hons in zoolology. Along with being the DWA liaison officer forTVP, and a wildlife crime officer. I would say I am fairly well qualified, thankyou.
I feel that it is very sad that the very people we SHOULD be working with are, yet agin, the subject of paranoid distrust.

I am sure that this will promote a lot of discussion, I only hope that it is for the good of both the hobby and animal welfare, rather than a slagging session.


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## C_Strike (Feb 20, 2007)

Your point is as valid as anyone elses, i have tried to understand your side, yet you havent actually come out with anything that i can agree with really.
I will read any points in RSPCA's favour you can come up with, thats if you do at some point.

I agree, its a real shame people hold such distrust for an organisation thats supposed to help, yet its the bloody organisations bad management thats to blame.
To me its even more of a shame that the animals the RSPCA receive have to be protected by a seperate organisation to protect the animals from the RSPCA.. tahts [email protected]*(d up.:whip:

Maybe if you were on the receiving end of the RSPCA your oppinions might change.
I know for a fact i get pretty disgruntled when a clueless idiot comes trying to make me beleive something about tarantulas that i know for fact isnt true. Its the same emotion, yet exasorbated.
So far i ONLY hear bad things about them. As i said previous, its my opinion that if they wer doing a good job people would feel a need to slate them, Even if the statements are untrue, they have been started for a reason. MAybe someones peronal disliking of them, but still people beleive it because they themselves are weiry of the RSPCA. If people stood by the RSPCA these rumours would fizzle out before they start.
Thats down to RSPCA creating the reputation they have.

I was nieve previous to my dealings with RSPCA, its was the dealings with RSPCA that actually made me decide to have no part with them.
The rspca want respect, they are gonna have to bloody work for it. MY opinion is they suck arse,with bulliboy tactis, and unneccessary intimidation. Are pretty damn dumb when it comes to exotics especially. Whenever i watch the RSPCA shows on tv they make me angry very oftem as you see the collection officers running around like a headless chicken chasing an amila. i mean 90% of the time they fanny about so much they reduce the chances of the animal surviving by scaring the bugger to death

BTW ian, had you glanced through that link i linked? as i said i cant say for ddefinate if its ture or not. either way its powerful reading, surely you have some reaction to those readings. Thats a fair number of disgruntled people, they is many, many more too. any reason you can think of people might make such things up if the charity is doing good?


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## slither61 (Nov 18, 2006)

ian14 said:


> WHY DO YOU ALL HAVE PROBLEM WITH AN ORGANISATION SETUP TO PROTECT ANIMALS????????????????
> Chris Newman, I remember only too well the bitching that went on in your magazine , Reptilian, it worries me that the people we should be working WITH, not AGAINST, are yet again the subject of a slagging off.
> hf666, grow up. The RSPCA do follow up calls. Stop being infantile with comments re film crews. Pathetic.
> C_strike, I have never joined the RSPCA. Want to know my previos knowledge?? 20 years as a herpkeepr, worked at London Zoo, Cotswold Wildlife Park, Jersey Wildlife Preservation Trust, offered a 6 month placement at JWPT, a job as assistant curator of herps at Cotswolds, oh and a BSc Hons in zoolology. Along with being the DWA liaison officer forTVP, and a wildlife crime officer. I would say I am fairly well qualified, thankyou.
> ...


Hi all,

Ian14

No need to throw your teddy out noones questioning your ability you are well qualified but how many police forces have someone like you as a wildlife officer, that the RSPCA can ask questions and get proper answers.

The RSPCA was started with the right ideals but it is the present directors that have ulterier motives money is beign stockpiled not used on animals or satalite RSPCA centers which it should be spent on, they have to make their own money some way or another.

If the RSPCA put as much effort into getting the correct training for officers as they do on head office the officers would be very knowledgeable on many subjects.

I would like to know why the RSPCA is not spending the money banked, on dogs and cats in kennels, rather than putting the thousands down every year they do they don't put that in flashy campaings I wonder why??. 

I think if the general public really new what was going on in the RSPCA I think a lot of questions would be asked and maybe one or two heads roll, and put people that care about animal welfare in charge so the money is used on animals insteda of a flashy Lexi's which they seem more bothered about at the present time.

Police now nolonger take stray dogs and cats in, it is now down to the council which the government has not given extra money for you don't see any offer of help from the RSPCA.

I think the majority of RSPCA rank and file officers have the animals welfare at heart and most do a good job on the crumbs thrown down from head office, but you will get a few bad ones it happens in all types of work.

Listen to some of the reports what the RSPCA have done to members of this forum.

Then wonder why there is distrust.

You never answered my previous question I asked you I would like to know your opinion Ian14.

slither61 :snake::snake::snake::snake:


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

I recently issued this guidance to dealing with the RSPCA to all pet shops in the UK. Whilst this guidance is aimed at pet shops the principles are the same for private individuals. Nevertheless I will amend this for private keepers and make it available shortly. However, this information is worth keeping to hand for the present:



*Know your rights*​ 
_Do the RSPCA have the right to demand to inspect my shop, question me or my staff, or examine my animals?_

*NO: The RSPCA have no legal powers, or rights, over and above that of any other member of the general public, they are not formal Animal Welfare Inspectors under the new Act. *

_Can the RSPCA issue me with a formal ‘Improvement Notice’ under the new Act?_

*NO: Only an Animal Welfare Inspector can legally issue an Improvement Notice.*

_The RSPCA call themselves the Animal Police, wear a police style uniform have ranks (Inspector, Chief Inspector etc) & issue cautions, does this mean they are law enforcement officers?_

*NO: The RSPCA is a charity, not a statutory law enforcement agency. It is a serious offence to impersonate a police officer. The caution used by the RSPCA is taken from the **The Police and Criminal Evidence Act (PACE) and can be used by anyone.*

_If I refuse to cooperate with the RSPCA can they arrest me?_

*NO: The RSPCA have no more powers of arrest than any other member of the general public. The caution used by the RSPCA starts with the phrase “You are not under arrest”, which implies they have the power to arrest, but this is purely an intimidatory tacit. *

_Do I have the right to ask the RSPCA to leave my premises?_

*YES: The RSPCA must leave your premises at your request, otherwise they commit the offence of trespass. *

_Do the RSPCA have the right to seize animals?_

*NO: Only a police officer or Animal Welfare Inspector appointed by the Local Authority can seize animals - the RSPCA have no power to seize or confiscate anything. *

_Can a police officer or animal welfare inspector seize animals and give them to the RSPCA?_

*YES: A police officer or animal welfare inspector can seize animals, under certain circumstances, and he can place the animals in the temporary care of the RSPCA. However, whoever seized the animals is legally responsible for anything seized.*

_If the police or animal welfare inspector seize my animals should they give me a receipt?_

*YES: If the police officer or animal welfare inspector seizes your animals you are entitled to demand a receipt from them. Do not sign any receipt offered by the RSPCA.*

_Do the RSPCA have the right to be on my premises if named on a Warrant issued by a Magistrate?_

*YES: If a warrant has been lawfully issued by a Magistrate and it names the RSPCA then they have right of entry. *

_What do I do if the RSPCA want to inspect my shop or ask me questions, or say they have received a complaint? _

*In light of recent developments, and taking into consideration the RSPCA position against pet shops, REPTA’s advice is do not answer any questions verbally. Ask the RSPCA to put any questions in writing and inform them that they will be answered in writing as soon as possible. *


*Call REPTA immediately for guidance *​ 
*Advice is free & in total confidence *​ 
* 023 8044 0999*


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## htf666 (Jun 23, 2007)

Oh dear Ian 14 is upset.People don't like the rspca.Perhaps if you explained more about the 'legal requirement' you mentioned in your first post it would enlighten us.Also I would like clarification on the 'duty to investigate' you mentioned. Is this a legal term? If you are 100% certain that the rspca never act illegally what do you make of the links in the rest of the posts? Are they made up? Lies? Conspiracy theories? Do the experts count as honest witnesses if they are on the payroll of the rspca? As an officer of the law do you condone this?The comment by the senior officer over illegal entry says the end justifies the means.What is your opinion on this? Far from me needing to grow up I suggest it is you that needs to wake up.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

The RSPCA as a principle is a good idea. An organisation set up to deal with cases of animal cruelty. Somewhere along the way it has become a politically orientated, self serving animal , whose initial _raison d'etre _has now morphed into an organisation hell bent on deciding for themselves what animals can and can't be kept by the public and forcing these ideas in through legislation. It seems to me that if the RSPCA don't know about the husbandry of an animal then it shouldn't be allowed to be kept in captivity. Add to this the "traffic Warden" mentality of "I have a uniform, therefore I'm important and you will respect my authority" and you have a recipe for disaster.
I have read too many stories and reports of bully boy tactics and shoddy practice by inspectors to believe that this is all one big conspiracy cooked up by pet owners to discredit a fine organisation.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

stuartdouglas said:


> The RSPCA as a principle is a good idea. An organisation set up to deal with cases of animal cruelty. Somewhere along the way it has become a politically orientated, self serving animal , whose initial _raison d'etre _has now morphed into an organisation hell bent on deciding for themselves what animals can and can't be kept by the public and forcing these ideas in through legislation. It seems to me that if the RSPCA don't know about the husbandry of an animal then it shouldn't be allowed to be kept in captivity. Add to this the "traffic Warden" mentality of "I have a uniform, therefore I'm important and you will respect my authority" and you have a recipe for disaster.
> I have read too many stories and reports of bully boy tactics and shoddy practice by inspectors to believe that this is all one big conspiracy cooked up by pet owners to discredit a fine organisation.


Very well said.


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## Cyberlizard (Apr 1, 2008)

To Ian14, I would say that I agree sometimes people make knee-jerk comments without thinking. Unfortunately that has become a way of life in this country at the moment, which is why I stopped reading the "comments" on the websites of some national newspapers - most of them were so knee-jerk and vitriolic that they did more damage to the argument they were supporting.

However......

One thing that I think especially worries many of us is the willingness of most of the RSPCA's ruling committee to apparently sign up to the more extremist animal rights agenda by their membership of groups such as Animal Aid. Most ordinary RSPCA grassroots workers and supporters are probably quite decent people - the few I have come across seem to be. But they are not the ones making the decisions about the philosophy and thus the aims of the group, are they? Please correct me if I am wrong, anybody.


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## rotty (Sep 24, 2007)

lots of info on this site reguarding dealing with the RSPCA

The Shg for Farmers, Pet Owners and Others Experiencing Difficulties with the RSPCA


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## htf666 (Jun 23, 2007)

I wonder sometimes if the people who post the one off topics about the rspca and then disappear are just trolling or are they really daft enough to believe that reptile keepers are against the rspca because they secretly enjoy keeping their animals in bad conditions? Every keeper has said more or less the same thing, i.e. a damn good organisation spoilt by the people who run it for profit first and animal welfare second. These keepers spend there last penny on their animals. A lot of us are familiar with the baked bean diet.The breeding records alone signify what a great job they are doing. I wish we had official figures on how many species are captive bred routinely nowadays so that we can nail the 'hard to keep and dies within a year' myth and move onto the next lie. When the fbh offered to write a memorandum document and work with these people how could they, if they are for animals turn it down? It is madness when so many problems could have been solved. Is there a political reason? Do they look on it as losing face or relinquishing power? Or would the fact that they would have to admit that we actually know our herpetology better than 99% of them ever could be too much? The people at the top of this organisation risk losing contributors and volunteers as more of the public are becoming aware of the situation. It's a wonder the inspectors that actually do the work don't get together and force these ar people at the top to sod off and get back to animal welfare. The one ideal we can all agree on. Harry


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

If you want to see some bad things about the RSPCA then check the thread about a women who told them to go away. A charity should NOT be acting like this and its obvious (including my dealings with them) that they are a pack of phenomenal idiots.


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## htf666 (Jun 23, 2007)

I totally agree with you.I was just trying to post something that wouldn't be seen as totally anti rspca like most of my posts are unfortunately. It's a shame that they are so anti reptile keeping when they cannot in all fairness give a sensible argument to back their outlandish claims up.People like Warwick don't help when it's obvious when you read the drivel he spurts that he hasn't got a clue when it comes to reptile husbandry. It's probably no different to the rest of the asylum we live in now the lunartics have taken over. I worry about our hobby when I hear that the likes of Hilary Benn have a say in what we do. No wonder everybody is buggering off. Harry


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## ratking (Mar 4, 2008)

Fangio said:


> Phone them, tell them you don't keep snakes and not to waste your time.
> 
> Also add that as it's not illegal to keep or sell snakes then they can go jump even if it were true.


can i just ask mate is the house urs or is a council house i only ask cus a friend of mine who lived in a council propty had some shit with rspca but they couldnt do anything so they informed the council and he had to really downsize or risk losing his house so if i was u if uve only got 1 snake as apet id invite them in and prove it to them then tell em go get :censor:ed


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

ratking said:


> can i just ask mate is the house urs or is a council house i only ask cus a friend of mine who lived in a council propty had some shit with rspca but they couldnt do anything so they informed the council and he had to really downsize or risk losing his house so if i was u if uve only got 1 snake as apet id invite them in and prove it to them then tell em go get :censor:ed


Mine's council and I have permission for my reps. I know they're VERY underhand. I wouldn't personally give them the time of day. If the council wanna come check my animals are healthy then I'd happily let them in - RSPCA no way (also I have 6 snakes, 1 lizard, 1 cat and 3 rats lol).


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## a.m.phibian (Apr 2, 2007)

I wouldn't mind the RSPCA coming to look at my animals - i have nothing to hide and am cynical as to why everyone should be so defensive and keen to keep them at arms length? All this ''refuse 'em entry'' business?. Sadly, the reality is, is that there are plenty of people out there who DON'T look after their reptiles etc in a satisfactory way...and if you can't report them to the RSPCA, then who do you report them to?. To me, they're a worthwhile organisation if they manage to rescue the odd iguana etc that is being kept in a manner that is far from acceptable...so...Should we be trying to stop this?.


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

I have nothing to hide and would let anyone in who doesn't have an "agenda".


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## exoticsandtropics (Mar 11, 2007)

yeah if yo have nothing to hide why hide it. let them in let thm look at your snakes and educate them.


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## bribrian (Jan 12, 2006)

The thing with these people is that they're always looking for something wrong. If you let them in to look at your lovely healthy cornsnake in it's beautiful 3' viv then they'll condemn you for cruelty because it's not in a 6' one!!!!!!!!!


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> I wouldn't mind the RSPCA coming to look at my animals - i have nothing to hide and am cynical as to why everyone should be so defensive and keen to keep them at arms length? All this ''refuse 'em entry'' business?. Sadly, the reality is, is that there are plenty of people out there who DON'T look after their reptiles etc in a satisfactory way...and if you can't report them to the RSPCA, then who do you report them to?. To me, they're a worthwhile organisation if they manage to rescue the odd iguana etc that is being kept in a manner that is far from acceptable...so...Should we be trying to stop this?.


You may not have anything to hide, but the RSPCA are *not* an impartial observer only on the look-out for bad reptile keepers. They have a specific agenda which is that they want to do away with reptile keeping all together. That agenda requires them to find fault where there may in fact not be any. And lets not forget that finding fault is quite an easy thing to do when they don't really know too much about reptiles to start with. The RSPCA most definitely are not experts on reptiles, and yet they somehow wish to position themselves as "worth listening to" when it comes to reptiles and their care requirements.


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> You may not have anything to hide, but the RSPCA are *not* an impartial observer only on the look-out for bad reptile keepers. They have a specific agenda which is that they want to do away with reptile keeping all together. That agenda requires them to find fault where there may in fact not be any. And lets not forget that finding fault is quite an easy thing to do when they don't really know too much about reptiles to start with. The RSPCA most definitely are not experts on reptiles, and yet they somehow wish to position themselves as "worth listening to" when it comes to reptiles and their care requirements.


I couldn't have worded it any better if I'd spent a year trying! My thoughts EXACTLY:no1:


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## ukreticnut (Jan 4, 2008)

ian14 said:


> I would suggest that all that has happened is that the RSPCA have received a complaint, *and, as a statutory body with investigative powers, the inspector has gone to the house, as he/she is LEGALLY required to do to investigate whether or not there is any substance to the complaint*. As they got no answer, a calling card has been left.
> Having worked with the RSPCA for many years in a professional capacity, I can assure you that they will not act illegally and are fully aware of their powers and the limit to them. They will gain nothing from acting illegally.
> They have a duty to investigate all complaints.
> At the end of the day, if you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to worry about.
> ...


nope,
the local councils animal welfare department is the ONLY statutory body with investigative powers.
the rspca is a charity and as such should have fowarded this complaint onto the local council, but they wont cuz they think they are the police.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> nope,
> the local councils animal welfare department is the ONLY statutory body with investigative powers.
> the rspca is a charity and as such should have fowarded this complaint onto the local council, but they wont cuz they think they are the police.


Exactly right! 

Does anyone remember Mary Whitehouse, that "lovely" old lady that used to spend her days as a self-appointed moral vigilante trying to tell the BBC what they could and couldn't broadcast, and what we could and couldn't watch (so nice of her to tell us so we didn't have to bother thinking for ourselves, by the way!)? Well that's pretty much how I see the RSPCA.


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## ukreticnut (Jan 4, 2008)

ian14 said:


> WHY DO YOU ALL HAVE PROBLEM WITH AN ORGANISATION SETUP TO PROTECT ANIMALS????????????????


BECAUSE THE ONLY THING IT PROTECTS NOW IS NOT THE ANIMALS, BUT THE ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS WHO USE IT AS A NICE FRONT FOR THEIR ACTIVITIES. SOME OF WHICH SHOULD BE INVESTIGATED UNDER THE TERRORISM ACT. 
THE RSPCA IS NO LONGER WHAT IT WAS SET UP TO BE. FACT.
NOT ONLY ARE ANIMAL RIGHT TERRORISTS JOINING THE MAIN FAKE ANIMAL POLICE "OFFICERS"
THEY RUN THE DAMN SHOW


> Want to know my previos knowledge?? 20 years as a herpkeepr, worked at London Zoo, Cotswold Wildlife Park, Jersey Wildlife Preservation Trust, offered a 6 month placement at JWPT, a job as assistant curator of herps at Cotswolds, oh and a BSc Hons in zoolology. Along with being the DWA liaison officer forTVP, and a wildlife crime officer.


IT IS WORRYING THAT SOMEONE AS QUALIFIED AS YOU HONESTLY BELIEVES THE RSPCA HAVE POWERS WHICH THEY DONT.
THEY HAVE ABOUT AS MUCH POWER TO INVESTIGATE, INTERVIEW, CAUTION AND PROSECUTE AS GLADYS FROM THE SALVATION ARMY SHOP ACROSS THE ROAD
THEY ARE A CHARITY AND IT IS ILLEGAL FOR CHARITIES TO INFLUENCE LOCAL LAWS, NEVER MIND PRETEND TO ENFORCE THEM.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

ian14 said:


> WHY DO YOU ALL HAVE PROBLEM WITH AN ORGANISATION SETUP TO PROTECT ANIMALS????????????????
> Chris Newman, I remember only too well the bitching that went on in your magazine , Reptilian, it worries me that the people we should be working WITH, not AGAINST, are yet again the subject of a slagging off.
> hf666, grow up. The RSPCA do follow up calls. Stop being infantile with comments re film crews. Pathetic.
> C_strike, I have never joined the RSPCA. Want to know my previos knowledge?? 20 years as a herpkeepr, worked at London Zoo, Cotswold Wildlife Park, Jersey Wildlife Preservation Trust, offered a 6 month placement at JWPT, a job as assistant curator of herps at Cotswolds, oh and a BSc Hons in zoolology. Along with being the DWA liaison officer forTVP, and a wildlife crime officer. I would say I am fairly well qualified, thankyou.
> ...


We have a problem with the RSPCA for the simple reason that it is no longer an ‘Animal Welfare’ organisation, rather a political campaigning body with a palpable Animal Rights agenda. It was only a few years ago that the Charity Commission forced the RSPCA to drop a declaration for Animal Rights from its policy document. Further the RSPCA is not interested in working with keeper organisations, the rejection of the proposed Memorandum of Understanding bears testament to that. The fundamental issues are the lack of accountability, and the fact there prosecutions are unsafe as they are not independently scrutinised. And the fact there ‘inspectors’ are not required to have any knowledge of, or interest in animals. I am quite surprised to here a WCO so supportive of the RSPCA, most are more circumspect these days, in light of the PC Bell case.


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## cannotstopbuyingballs (Dec 29, 2007)

exoticsandtropics said:


> yeah if yo have nothing to hide why hide it. let them in let thm look at your snakes and educate them.


 
That is Dangerous !! Please remember this organisation have a POLITICAL AGENDA ! it is not all about animal welfare. They are so bias towards herps. I have heard when they told somebody to put their royal python in a 6 foot Viv !! We all know that a royal does not need that sort of space


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> That is Dangerous !! Please remember this organisation have a POLITICAL AGENDA ! it is not all about animal welfare. They are so bias towards herps. I have heard when they told somebody to put their royal python in a 6 foot Viv !! We all know that a royal does not need that sort of space


This is the danger of an organisation that "specialises" in mammals trying to barge its way into the reptile hobby.


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## thelooneyflyer (Dec 27, 2007)

I myself have had a visit from the RSPCA after someone decided to report me for neglecting my animals ( I do not know who or in fact really care). What i do know is that i had nothing to hide and invited the inspector in, the individual was very pleasant and friendly. He said in his opinion all the reptiles i had and my cat were in excellent condition and in his opinion all the enclosures and husbandry were fine. He openly admitted he was not a reptile specialist and asked would i mind if it at a time convenient for both of us he returned with a reptile expert ( who turned out to be my local reptile vet that i was registered with), i agreed and the expert confirmed what the inspector had believed both left happy with my husbandary and i was reassured that i was doing everything right ! I can only go off my dealings with them but would be only too happy to have them back in my home. I realise that some people have had some negative experiences with them but in every job/career/hobby, there are bad eggs whether the RSPCA,Police,Reptile keepers, dog keepers. I just don't think we should tar them all with the same brush. This is just my humble opinion based on personal experience.


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## cannotstopbuyingballs (Dec 29, 2007)

thelooneyflyer said:


> I myself have had a visit from the RSPCA after someone decided to report me for neglecting my animals ( I do not know who or in fact really care). What i do know is that i had nothing to hide and invited the inspector in, the individual was very pleasant and friendly. He said in his opinion all the reptiles i had and my cat were in excellent condition and in his opinion all the enclosures and husbandry were fine. He openly admitted he was not a reptile specialist and asked would i mind if it at a time convenient for both of us he returned with a reptile expert ( who turned out to be my local reptile vet that i was registered with), i agreed and the expert confirmed what the inspector had believed both left happy with my husbandary and i was reassured that i was doing everything right ! I can only go off my dealings with them but would be only too happy to have them back in my home. I realise that some people have had some negative experiences with them but in every job/career/hobby, there are bad eggs whether the RSPCA,Police,Reptile keepers, dog keepers. I just don't think we should tar them all with the same brush. This is just my humble opinion based on personal experience.


I am glad to read your story I really am but it in my opinum is not one or two rotten apples in the barrel but one rotten orchard with one or two healthy trees !!

I would like to see Government funded animal welfare officers. State officials with proper powers and un biased views.


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## a.m.phibian (Apr 2, 2007)

thelooneyflyer said:


> I myself have had a visit from the RSPCA after someone decided to report me for neglecting my animals ( I do not know who or in fact really care). What i do know is that i had nothing to hide and invited the inspector in, the individual was very pleasant and friendly. He said in his opinion all the reptiles i had and my cat were in excellent condition and in his opinion all the enclosures and husbandry were fine. He openly admitted he was not a reptile specialist and asked would i mind if it at a time convenient for both of us he returned with a reptile expert ( who turned out to be my local reptile vet that i was registered with), i agreed and the expert confirmed what the inspector had believed both left happy with my husbandary and i was reassured that i was doing everything right ! I can only go off my dealings with them but would be only too happy to have them back in my home. I realise that some people have had some negative experiences with them but in every job/career/hobby, there are bad eggs whether the RSPCA,Police,Reptile keepers, dog keepers. I just don't think we should tar them all with the same brush. This is just my humble opinion based on personal experience.


This is kind of what i'm getting at. I get the point by a previous poster about 'looking for fault' but realistically i know if an RSPCA inspector comes around to mine and, for instance, see's a breeding group of 4cm bombina variegata (DEFRA/Natural England aware btw) in a 9 foot x 5 foot outdoor enclosure that is carefully reconstructed to replicate their exact natural habitat, then what are they going to do me for?!? I think even that **** Clifford W would have a hard job moaning about that one. But i do understand everyones concerns on them IF it is a FACT that they have a hidden agenda...Of this i'm not entirely sure so wouldn't be fair to comment. But i still feel they're a worthwhile organisation if it means even just 10 herptiles per annum are rescued from the hands of bored chavs and impulse buyers (please don't deny they're not out there folks!)...to be fair you don't always have to have scientific herpetological knowledge to know when something is being mistreated. It seems they do use one or two very good people as their herpetological consultants though.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

There are many good people within the RSPCA that is beyond doubt, people who are there for the right reasons, to care for animals. Unfortunately they are declining and being replaced by a younger more militant inspectorate that see there role as ‘law enforcement’ not animal welfare. In fact the RSPCA is quite happy to state there primary role is law enforcement, in Court one RSPCA inspector, she will remain nameless said “our role use to be animal welfare, today its law enforcement”!!!

Now I have no issue with law enforcement concerning animal welfare, but and it’s a big but, the body enforcing the law must be impartial, accountable and above all knowledgeable – unfortunately the RSPCA do not for fill any of this criteria. 

People have said they would be happy to invite the RSPCA in to inspect there animals, this is a very ill-advised action. The inspector may well be more then happy with the way you are keeping your animals. However, they will file a report on the visit and that will be on held on file. You may not hear from them for months, years but there is every chance one day you will get a knock on the door and there will be your friendly inspector with another than you have not seen before – that is when the when the trouble starts. Your animals are seized, often illegally, you are prosecuted by the RSPCA (you don’t need to have committed any offence to be prosecuted) and you end up being heavily fined and banned from keeping animals.

This may sound far fetched, its not it happens regularly. One of the cases I reviewed concerned a young lady who had always wanted a Royal python, she had done masses of research before buying her pet. She had had the animal for a few months and it had problems shedding its skin, so she took it to the vets, and RSPCA vet. Anyway she ended being prosecuted by them for causing the animal unnecessary suffering. She was heavily fined and banned from keeping animals for five years. 

Of the 50 or so RSPCA cases I have been involved with in only 2 have I seen significant problems, in both of these cases the people concerned had mental health problems. In perhaps another 10 or so there were minor issues, and all that was needed was some advise. In over half I could see no issues at all, other than the people had animals. However, all of these cases were prosecuted by the RSPCA. The statement from the RSPCA that they only prosecute as a last resort is in my experience entirely untrue - RSPCA prosecute for political objectives.

I am in full agreement that we need the RSPCA, but we need a RSPCA that is there for the right reasons. It is very clear they have lost direction and today have an Animal Rights agenda veiled behind that of animal welfare. We need an RSPCA that is transparent and accountable, currently they are neither. Most important of all is that the RSPCA are forced to work through an independent prosecuting authority, be this CPS or other body.


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## gtm (Jan 23, 2008)

Whats more the RSPCA have on occasion shown a flagrant disregard for criminal procedure and the rules of evidence.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

gtm said:


> Whats more the RSPCA have on occasion shown a flagrant disregard for criminal procedure and the rules of evidence.


Nearly all RSPCA Court cases start with an abuse of process argument, rarely are they successful. However, if a case is lost in the Magistrates Court statistic show that you are 23 times more likely to overturn the conviction on appeal to a higher Court than you are a conviction secured by the CPS. Part of this is due to the RSPCA running training course for Magistrates on how to interpret the law!


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

I have no direct experience with the RSPCA but have read the numerous threads on this forum with much interest.

What is coming through load and clear is that generally the grass roots workers do a fine job in often difficult circumstances. It is also clear that the RSPCA ought to educate their officers to ensure they are all aware of what their mandate is.

Having now conducted some of my own research I am disturbed by the aparent political agenda that the organisation seems to be following, its links with animal activist groups and indeed its propensity to prosecute on some very dubious cases.

Turning to the many in our hobby who have expressed opinions on the RSPCA, many in quite derogatory terms - I think it is time we stopped the mud-slinging and came together behind the likes of Chris to put a coherent and co-ordinated case together for reform of the RSPCA as a body concerned for animal welfare and protection of those of us who do care.

Let's face it, from my experience on this forum in particular we do not display much unity nor ability to put forward a cogent case for anything. If I was an objective viewer of many of the threads I'd be wondering why we seem to be constantly arguing amongst ourselves to the detriment of the hobby we all believe passionately in. 

Take for example the thread on the formation of a Traders Forum (unbelievable reaction- most industries have such media - it's normal business practice - why were non traders getting so worked up??).

Then there was the idea of having a database for 'reputable' breeders that could be made available to the public and those in the hobby - whilst it's still a possibility many of us could not agree on some very basic principles.

We need to unite as a hobby and address the issues that face us as an adult, coherent and informed body or else nobody is going to take us seriously. If we are not careful we will get what's coming to us through our own actions!!!


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## a.m.phibian (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris Newman said:


> There are many good people within the RSPCA that is beyond doubt, people who are there for the right reasons, to care for animals. Unfortunately they are declining and being replaced by a younger more militant inspectorate that see there role as ‘law enforcement’ not animal welfare. In fact the RSPCA is quite happy to state there primary role is law enforcement, in Court one RSPCA inspector, she will remain nameless said “our role use to be animal welfare, today its law enforcement”!!!
> 
> Now I have no issue with law enforcement concerning animal welfare, but and it’s a big but, the body enforcing the law must be impartial, accountable and above all knowledgeable – unfortunately the RSPCA do not for fill any of this criteria.
> 
> ...


Thankyou Chris, that cleared a few things up for me.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

a.m.phibian said:


> Thankyou Chris, that cleared a few things up for me.


*I started another thread RSPCA – Memorandum of Understanding which some might find interesting.
*


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