# Supplier of ethical frozen mice?



## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

Do these exist? Like a free range version of feeders?

Obviously not free range, but are any suppliers notable for really good level of care- bordering on pet treatment?


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## Nightfirez (Sep 28, 2010)

yes the ones you breed your self more than likely the only way you will get "pet" type feeder keeping


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## JamesJ (Apr 12, 2008)

Yep as above, it would cost too much for anyone to do it commercially.


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

James_and_Hana said:


> Yep as above, it would cost too much for anyone to do it commercially.


Cost too much ?

Yes the costs would be greater and would need to be passed onto the consumer, who have to be prepared to pay more. If it works for the free range chicken market (both meat and eggs) for example, why can't it work with feeder rodents ? 

I predict at some point there is going to be an expose in the press or on TV of the less pleasant sides of the reptile trade. It is going to make us look very bad. It could really do the reptile keepers public relations some considerable harm. 

It could be like the TV programme which attacked the kennel club in the UK. 

Its a shame the reptile trade doesn't want to clean up its act in some respects.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Blaptica said:


> Cost too much ?
> 
> Yes the costs would be greater and would need to be passed onto the consumer, who have to be prepared to pay more. If it works for the free range chicken market (both meat and eggs) for example, why can't it work with feeder rodents ?


It could certainly work for individuals who really DO care about the life and death of their feeder rodents and are unwilling to breed their own.

However, the costs for breeding feeder rodents in "pet" circumstances might be significantly higher than "commercially bred free range chicken" costs - and what can legally be labelled "free range" at a commercial level isn't necessarily the "half a dozen chooks clucking on the lawn" that people have the mental image of.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Blaptica said:


> Cost too much ?
> 
> Yes the costs would be greater and would need to be passed onto the consumer, who have to be prepared to pay more. If it works for the free range chicken market (both meat and eggs) for example, why can't it work with feeder rodents ?
> 
> ...


breeding rodents for food isn't going to look bad on the reptile trade as rodents aren't reptiles. Yes they're feeder food for reptiles but it's irrelevent in how they're bred / kept. 
you don't see omnivores under fire because of bad conditions at chicken factories; you see the factory owners under fire because it's them who keep the animals in that condition.

It'd be verging on impossible for rodent breeders to keep them as a pet like conditions due to the quantities and cost as mentioned.


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> It could certainly work for individuals who really DO care about the life and death of their feeder rodents and are unwilling to breed their own.
> 
> However, the costs for breeding feeder rodents in "pet" circumstances might be significantly higher than "commercially bred free range chicken" costs - and what can legally be labelled "free range" at a commercial level isn't necessarily the "half a dozen chooks clucking on the lawn" that people have the mental image of.


I agree that free range might not be quite like what alot of people would assume it was, but it is a million miles better in my view than keeping hens in cages barely bigger than the bird itself. It wouldn't take much to improve the lives of rodents. Bigger cages, chewable hides (tough cardboard rolls for example) and exercise wheels would help alot.


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

Meko said:


> breeding rodents for food isn't going to look bad on the reptile trade as rodents aren't reptiles. Yes they're feeder food for reptiles but it's irrelevent in how they're bred / kept.
> you don't see omnivores under fire because of bad conditions at chicken factories; you see the factory owners under fire because it's them who keep the animals in that condition.
> 
> It'd be verging on impossible for rodent breeders to keep them as a pet like conditions due to the quantities and cost as mentioned.


I think you are totally wrong. Snake keepers in the UK are responsible for the deaths of millions of rodents each year. If we as a group don't give a damm about how those feeder rodents are kept it will reflect on us. 

Reptile keeping is clearly more popular than ever, but we are still are very much seen by alot of the majority of non reptile keepers as at best as 'odd'. As a minority group we will find it difficult to get public sympathy if the public see our hobby/trade as cruel, if new restrictive legislation is suggested. 

The big difference is that meat eating is still very much the norm. The VAST MAJORITY of the UK population eat meat. But still 'more ethical meat' is becoming more popular and is talked about in the British media all the time. 

It is not impossible to produce more ethical feeder rodents, but it will put up the prices. Do you have any idea how many free range chickens are sold each week ? It must be millions. So how is it that is possible, but it would be impossible with rodents ?


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

Nightfirez said:


> yes the ones you breed your self more than likely the only way you will get "pet" type feeder keeping





James_and_Hana said:


> Yep as above, it would cost too much for anyone to do it commercially.





Ssthisto said:


> It could certainly work for individuals who really DO care about the life and death of their feeder rodents and are unwilling to breed their own.
> 
> However, the costs for breeding feeder rodents in "pet" circumstances might be significantly higher than "commercially bred free range chicken" costs - and what can legally be labelled "free range" at a commercial level isn't necessarily the "half a dozen chooks clucking on the lawn" that people have the mental image of.


I'm one of those individuals Ssthisto. I couldn't breed my own, as hypocritical as it sounds:S

I have one corn, so feeding costs aren't an issue. 

The snake may see those fuzzies as a food item only, but I see that as a life, and I respect that. 

I was doing some thread digging on here, and LFBP trialled it after popular demand, but nobody coughed up when they went on sale so that was ended. 

To be honest, I genuinely wouldn't mind paying ~£5 a feed for her- that's what I spend pretty much on me, so I don't have an issue with that.

Surely there must be others who would pay a premium for rodents that aren't bred back to back, cramped and under stimulated?


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

hippyhaplos said:


> I'm one of those individuals Ssthisto. I couldn't breed my own, as hypocritical as it sounds:S
> 
> I have one corn, so feeding costs aren't an issue.
> 
> ...


It would take somebody breeding on a massive scale supplying the major wholesalers to make a big difference. I think most snake keepers will want to buy rodents from the local shop (i.e who generally buy via a wholesaler).

But despite what I have already said, my general experience of reptile keepers, (and most people in general) is that they tend to put themselves first. Saving a few quid is more important to most people.


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## tinyfish (Nov 11, 2008)

I remember coming across one UK frozen rodent supplier online about a year ago who did say they were keeping their mice in larger than average cages, and with an exercise wheel, which is a very good start. But I can't remember who they were now, sorry.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

That was us, and like the person mentioned before people were not prepared to pay anymore for their frozen so we went back to the usual method of production which isnt as bad as most people think but not as good as some people would like, if you do some thread digging on rodents or go through my old posts you will find pictures of how we do it, I dont consider what we do to be cruel or inhumane. 

Regarding truly "ethical" rodents (huge enclosures, toys, lovely fresh food & treats etc), which is the buzzword of the moment, if rats were to be bred under those conditions you could realistically expect to pay more than ten times what you are paying now, so would you really pay £10 for a weaner rat?

Its hard enough getting a uk wholesaler to buy UK bred rodents, did you all know that most of your petshop rodents come from the USA or eastern Europe.


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## oakelm (Jan 14, 2009)

hippyhaplos said:


> Do these exist? Like a free range version of feeders?
> 
> Obviously not free range, but are any suppliers notable for really good level of care- bordering on pet treatment?


Try sourcing excess mice from a show mouse breeder in your area. Most are fully aware of rep keepers needs and to them they are excess but you get mice from animals that have only a couple of litters in a lifetime, thinned to allow for only the best to survive. Or even someone that breeds for pets as litters often need thinning just to keep them from being runty but pet breeders tend to do it at the later stages (the ones that do) when fur colour is through.

However a simple good quality feeder breeder that produces their own even when still using lab cages keeps them in more space and less dense stocking than mass produced rodents. If others are like me I try and do right by my mice as I end up spending more time looking after them than the reps. All are tame to handle, I dont handle regularly but none bite and other than the tiny pinging stage ones, most just sit happily on my hand.


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

LFBP-NEIL said:


> That was us, and like the person mentioned before people were not prepared to pay anymore for their frozen so we went back to the usual method of production which isnt as bad as most people think but not as good as some people would like, if you do some thread digging on rodents or go through my old posts you will find pictures of how we do it, I dont consider what we do to be cruel or inhumane.
> 
> Regarding truly "ethical" rodents (huge enclosures, toys, lovely fresh food & treats etc), which is the buzzword of the moment, if rats were to be bred under those conditions you could realistically expect to pay more than ten times what you are paying now, so would you really pay £10 for a weaner rat?
> 
> Its hard enough getting a uk wholesaler to buy UK bred rodents, did you all know that most of your petshop rodents come from the USA or eastern Europe.


It is a real shame that it never worked out, but at the end of the day you're a business and a couple of keepers aren't going to keep your head above the water! 

To be totally honest, you pay £10 in a petshop for a live rat, and nobody bats an eyelid- a frozen one requires just as much work/effort/expenditure so £10 seems pretty fair.

If you ever decide to start the higher welfare rodents again, I'll be there!


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

oakelm said:


> Try sourcing excess mice from a show mouse breeder in your area. Most are fully aware of rep keepers needs and to them they are excess but you get mice from animals that have only a couple of litters in a lifetime, thinned to allow for only the best to survive. Or even someone that breeds for pets as litters often need thinning just to keep them from being runty but pet breeders tend to do it at the later stages (the ones that do) when fur colour is through.
> 
> However a simple good quality feeder breeder that produces their own even when still using lab cages keeps them in more space and less dense stocking than mass produced rodents. If others are like me I try and do right by my mice as I end up spending more time looking after them than the reps. All are tame to handle, I dont handle regularly but none bite and other than the tiny pinging stage ones, most just sit happily on my hand.


I was thinking this earlier on when I saw an ad for fancy mice- the breeder wanted to know if anyone wanted bucks, otherwise they'd be culled. These must go somewhere, so I think I'm going to pursue this route!

I know that if I tried to breed myself, I'd end up keeping them as pets, and they'd never become food. 

Thanks


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

LFBP-NEIL said:


> That was us, and like the person mentioned before people were not prepared to pay anymore for their frozen so we went back to the usual method of production which isnt as bad as most people think but not as good as some people would like, if you do some thread digging on rodents or go through my old posts you will find pictures of how we do it, I dont consider what we do to be cruel or inhumane.
> 
> Regarding truly "ethical" rodents (huge enclosures, toys, lovely fresh food & treats etc), which is the buzzword of the moment, if rats were to be bred under those conditions you could realistically expect to pay more than ten times what you are paying now, so would you really pay £10 for a weaner rat?
> 
> Its hard enough getting a uk wholesaler to buy UK bred rodents*, did you all know that most of your petshop rodents come from the USA or eastern Europe*.


I am not suggesting you are wrong, in fact I think you are probably are correct, but I am sure I can recall Chris Newman saying that the rodents available in the Uk are Uk bred. 

Do the rats for example need "huge" cages to have a quality of life ? Can you not add extra treat foods, like bits of carrot apple etc to the normal diet rather than replace the existing diet totally ? Cardboard chews need not be expensive. So do they really need to be 10x the cost ?


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## Sirvincent (Jul 16, 2008)

is there any difference in the quality of the rats in the end?

We all know that organic/free range chickens & pigs are marketed as better tasting and worth the higher price due to the quality of the animal. But if a rat/mouse is getting a treats and living in larger cages, would it "taste" any better for the snakes? Would it really have a noticable difference in the quality of the animals you buy?


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

Sirvincent said:


> is there any difference in the quality of the rats in the end?
> 
> We all know that organic/free range chickens & pigs are marketed as better tasting and worth the higher price due to the quality of the animal. But if a rat/mouse is getting a treats and living in larger cages, would it "taste" any better for the snakes? Would it really have a noticable difference in the quality of the animals you buy?


Tasting better for my snake is a bonus, not the incentive.

If I were to buy meat, it'd be free range no questions asked. I don't see why feeder animals should be any different.

It would be nice to know that animals didn't have to live a rotten existance, just to feed other animals cheaply.

There's more to it than just is it going to be better for my snake...


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Sirvincent said:


> is there any difference in the quality of the rats in the end?
> 
> We all know that organic/free range chickens & pigs are marketed as better tasting and worth the higher price due to the quality of the animal. But if a rat/mouse is getting a treats and living in larger cages, would it "taste" any better for the snakes? Would it really have a noticable difference in the quality of the animals you buy?


I can *visually* tell the difference between the storebought rodents I get and the ones I've bred at home (and not just because mine have funky colours)... bigger at the same age bracket, chunky, no square dehydrated/undernourished tails (although not all store-bought rodents show this last sign).

I also know that they're as close to "gut loaded" as a rodent can be, because they've had treats and a varied diet right up to bye-bye day.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

Blaptica said:


> I am not suggesting you are wrong, in fact I think you are probably are correct, but I am sure I can recall Chris Newman saying that the rodents available in the Uk are Uk bred.
> 
> Do the rats for example need "huge" cages to have a quality of life ? Can you not add extra treat foods, like bits of carrot apple etc to the normal diet rather than replace the existing diet totally ? Cardboard chews need not be expensive. So do they really need to be 10x the cost ?



without going into the whos's who and who buys what and who sells to who, basically theres 3 big wholesalers that supply the shops over here and maybe 3 or so smaller ones, I know that 2 of them (the ones with the biggest share) get most from outside the uk, also there was a big uk breeder that turned out was shipping them in from the usa, some of the rodents sold in this country will be bred in this country though.

Trouble is if you add in fresh food, say each rat has an apple thats an extra £300 on the food bill, how often do you give it to them, one a day? thats £2100 a week, A medium rat would eat £8-£10 of fresh food before its ready to become frozen, Even if you gave them one a week your looking at an extra £1-2 on the cost of a rat. Plus giving them a fresh fruit or veg in the diet after they have been raised on dry diet leads to one thing - Diarrhea, and no one wants to buy rats with pooey bums, 

Cardboard rolls are a great way to give them something to gnaw on and if we ever get any we put some in with them, but where do you get 1000 cardboard rolls from every week?

I have even tried sawing up blocks of wood for them to gnaw on, but after a week of being in a rat cage they become soiled with urine and poo so you have to chuck them away each week. At the moment mine get a wad of newspaper each week, this seems to keep them occupied tearing it to shreds and building nests with it. 

We could take the cost cutting a step further and keep them in wire bottom cages so they didnt need any cleaning out at all and reduce the cage sizes so they have hardly any room to move but thats just cruel, 

All of our rodents are inspected by a vet once a year, we have DEFRA come look at our procedures twice a year, they have a constant supply of water and food, fresh bedding weekly, The air is extracted and filtered on an extremely high flow, they are kept at constant temperatures. They get everything they require in life to keep them healthy, fit and breeding. How many rats sold as pets end up getting this treatment? 

The only thing they dont have is Cuddles, nose rubs, the run of the building, tickles under the chin and a huge rat tower to live in.


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## Junior13reptilez (Oct 17, 2010)

Sirvincent said:


> is there any difference in the quality of the rats in the end?
> 
> We all know that organic/free range chickens & pigs are marketed as better tasting and worth the higher price due to the quality of the animal. But if a rat/mouse is getting a treats and living in larger cages, would it "taste" any better for the snakes? Would it really have a noticable difference in the quality of the animals you buy?


 Most people who buy free range don't buy it for the taste but for the piece of mind that they know it has had a half deccent life. You dont' always have to think of yourself...


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

LFBP-NEIL said:


> without going into the whos's who and who buys what and who sells to who, basically theres 3 big wholesalers that supply the shops over here and maybe 3 or so smaller ones, I know that 2 of them (the ones with the biggest share) get most from outside the uk, also there was a big uk breeder that turned out was shipping them in from the usa, some of the rodents sold in this country will be bred in this country though.
> 
> Trouble is if you add in fresh food, say each rat has an apple thats an extra £300 on the food bill, how often do you give it to them, one a day? thats £2100 a week, A medium rat would eat £8-£10 of fresh food before its ready to become frozen, Even if you gave them one a week your looking at an extra £1-2 on the cost of a rat. Plus giving them a fresh fruit or veg in the diet after they have been raised on dry diet leads to one thing - Diarrhea, and no one wants to buy rats with pooey bums,
> 
> ...


You should be applauded for making the effort to make improvements in the care of rodents. 

I would have thought that a rat would only need a small treat piece of say apple or carrot to improve its life. When I kept them as pets they didn't eat that much on top of the dry food. A small regular treat shouldn't lead to health problems. 

One of the big wholesalers told me about his breeding centre in Eastern Europe many years ago (JW of MF). In fact my strain of mice were used as started stock !


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> I can *visually* tell the difference between the storebought rodents I get and the ones I've bred at home (and not just because mine have funky colours)... bigger at the same age bracket, chunky, no square dehydrated/undernourished tails (although not all store-bought rodents show this last sign).
> 
> I also know that they're as close to "gut loaded" as a rodent can be, because they've had treats and a varied diet right up to bye-bye day.


I have had this arguement before. Why is it that its common practice to gut load insects, but snake keepers seem to worry about the cheapness of rodents above quality ? I know of big python breeders who use nothing but cheap dog food for the rodents they breed themselves. Who is to say that extra egg might hatch if the rodents were fed better ? Many rodents eat a substantial amount of veg in the diet. So shouldn't snakes naturally ingest that veg in the stomach too ?

Considering the sale price of many boa/python morphs, surely a bit of carrot might be worth trying ?


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

Blaptica said:


> I would have thought that a rat would only need a small treat piece of say apple or carrot to improve its life. When I kept them as pets they didn't eat that much on top of the dry food. A small regular treat shouldn't lead to health problems.


I might try them with a chunk of donkey carrot once a week, see what happens, they are cheap enough. 



> One of the big wholesalers told me about his breeding centre in Eastern Europe many years ago (JW of MF). In fact my strain of mice were used as started stock !


You should have agreed on 1% of all future sales as thats the place that most come from now


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## ARMS87 (Jul 21, 2010)

I haven't got any snakes any more but when I did I bred generations of mice.
I fed my snake mice that had died of old age and the pinkies it's mother had killed, therefore no cruelty.

I did however keep frozen pet shop mice in the freezer incase the snakes couldn't wait for a natural death. 
Not perfect but it made me feel better and mouse breeding was a nice hobbie and their spent bodies were food for my snakes.


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

How many snakes did you have, and how many mice did you have to keep?


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

ARMS87 said:


> I haven't got any snakes any more but when I did I bred generations of mice.
> I fed my snake mice that had died of old age and the pinkies it's mother had killed, therefore no cruelty.
> 
> I did however keep frozen pet shop mice in the freezer incase the snakes couldn't wait for a natural death.
> Not perfect but it made me feel better and mouse breeding was a nice hobbie and their spent bodies were food for my snakes.


for real? the only reason i question what you did was a mouse that dies of old age is pretty knackered they dont just lie down and die, they wither away into nothing and finally peg it, and any pinkies that are killed by their mothers are usually eaten straight away by the mother the only ones that get left outside the nest dead are usually grey shrivelled up things that are fit for the bin only, if thats how you managed to keep your snakes going fair play to you but i would not advise anyone tries this approach as you will be waiting a hell of a long time between feeds and the feed when it comes will be of next to no quality.


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